# Keir Starmer's time is up



## agricola (Apr 4, 2020)

I voted for Starmer. I don't think he has covered himself in glory over the past few seconds and was virtually absent on the Coronavirus debate. This has possibly cost a lot of anti-Coronavirus votes. His time is up. He should go. Give the party time to elect a leader and sort themselves out before the next election.


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## mauvais (Apr 4, 2020)

there's going to be some great articles in the guardian to come isn't there


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## brogdale (Apr 4, 2020)

56% then.


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## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Apr 4, 2020)

mauvais said:


> there's going to be some great articles in the guardian to come isn't there



Maybe they'll do another one about how the terrible sexist Labour members have elected a man again.


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## a_chap (Apr 4, 2020)

Not Keir Starmer after all.

Step forward surprise winner of the election: Mr Ray ID.


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## Smokeandsteam (Apr 4, 2020)

Never forget.....


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## mauvais (Apr 4, 2020)

a_chap said:


> Not Keir Starmer after all.
> 
> Step forward surprise winner of the election: Mr Ray ID.
> 
> View attachment 204880


"502 Bad Gateway Error means that the web server you've connected to is acting as a proxy for relaying information from another server, but it has gotten a bad response"

Just like the Labour Party, wheeeeeeeeeeyyyyyyyy


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## mauvais (Apr 4, 2020)

Every social media TV-writing centrist Chris Addison dad is well pleased this morning. For my part I hope we can just set aside our differences and move as quickly as possible to the bit where there's nothing left alive but irradiated cockroaches.


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## Treacle Toes (Apr 4, 2020)

Oh god no. It's like Blair's younger brother, the catalogue model.


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## keybored (Apr 4, 2020)

Do we have a noun for his disciples yet (a la "blairite", "corbynista" etc.)? Heard one gushing on the Today programme this morning.


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## ignatious (Apr 4, 2020)

Starfuckers


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## tommers (Apr 4, 2020)

Im keeping an open mind. Be interesting to see if his treatment differs.


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## a_chap (Apr 4, 2020)

keybored said:


> Do we have a noun for his disciples yet (a la "blairite", "corbynista" etc.)? Heard one gushing on the Today programme this morning.



Starminites?

He is, after all, the Starminator.

Note: you heard that one here first. All further use will require paying a fee, ok?



*Edited to add:* Damn. Apparently "starminator" falls under the category of "The bleedin' obvious"


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## keybored (Apr 4, 2020)

Arsekeirssers


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## mauvais (Apr 4, 2020)

Keireerists.


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## killer b (Apr 4, 2020)

starmtroopers


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## neonwilderness (Apr 4, 2020)

Rutita1 said:


> Oh god no. It's like Blair's younger brother, the catalogue model.


“Oh, please, please, I'm not Christ. He was quite a scruffy man.”


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## cupid_stunt (Apr 4, 2020)

He's the one that the Tories didn't want to win, so there's that at least.


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## rekil (Apr 4, 2020)

Starmchasers.


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## mauvais (Apr 4, 2020)

mauvais said:


> Every social media TV-writing centrist Chris Addison dad is well pleased this morning. For my part I hope we can just set aside our differences and move as quickly as possible to the bit where there's nothing left alive but irradiated cockroaches.


Oh wait I've come up with a name for this too.

The Campaign For Nuclear Dis-Starmer-ment.


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## Jeff Robinson (Apr 4, 2020)

keybored said:


> Do we have a noun for his disciples yet (a la "blairite", "corbynista" etc.)? Heard one gushing on the Today programme this morning.



Keirbynistas as I think.


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## Steel Icarus (Apr 4, 2020)

Keir today, something that rhymes with gone tomorrow


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## Sprocket. (Apr 4, 2020)

Starshit Dodderers.


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## Beermoth (Apr 4, 2020)

The Tories are the Real Opposition.


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## shifting gears (Apr 4, 2020)

keybored said:


> Do we have a noun for his disciples yet (a la "blairite", "corbynista" etc.)? Heard one gushing on the Today programme this morning.



Keirleaders


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## Labourite (Apr 4, 2020)

The man out of all the candidates who could make Labour electable again.

Pleased with that.


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## mauvais (Apr 4, 2020)

Labourite said:


> The man out of all the candidates who could make Labour electable again.


I mean, this is literally true, but that's all.


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## shifting gears (Apr 4, 2020)

I for one welcome the new model starmy


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## Beermoth (Apr 4, 2020)

Under my leadership we will engage constructively with the Government, not opposition for opposition's sake. Not scoring party political points or making impossible demands. But with the courage to support where that's the right thing to do.


WAHEY LOWER YOUR EXPECTATIONS


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## Smokeandsteam (Apr 4, 2020)

Labourite said:


> The man out of all the candidates who could make Labour electable again.
> 
> Pleased with that.



Yes. Labour has been crying out for a leader from north London who designed the Party’s Brexit strategy. Neil Kinnock redux but with a posh nasally accent.

I do however agree that he’ll be leading labour into government. But it’ll be at the invitation of Boris Johnson


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## planetgeli (Apr 4, 2020)

keybored said:


> Do we have a noun for his disciples yet (a la "blairite", "corbynista" etc.)? Heard one gushing on the Today programme this morning.



StarmerChameleons


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## redsquirrel (Apr 4, 2020)

So is the LP still the correct/best/only vehicle to challenge capital then?


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## Big Bertha (Apr 4, 2020)

He can’t be worse than the last one.


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## ska invita (Apr 4, 2020)

Beermoth said:


> WAHEY LOWER YOUR EXPECTATIONS


They dont go any lower


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## mauvais (Apr 4, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> So is the LP still the correct/best/only vehicle to challenge capital then?


Course not.

It's very obviously COVID-19.


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## Steel Icarus (Apr 4, 2020)

mauvais said:


> Course not.
> 
> It's very obviously COVID-19.


That's _Comrade_ Covid, Comrade


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## platinumsage (Apr 4, 2020)

cupid_stunt said:


> He's the one that the Tories didn't want to win, so there's that at least.



That was Lisa Nandy. Kier is not of the north but of north London, and the Tories will like that.


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## agricola (Apr 4, 2020)

shifting gears said:


> I for one welcome the new model starmy



best one so far, I feel


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## Pickman's model (Apr 4, 2020)

Labourite said:


> The man out of all the candidates who could make Labour electable again.
> 
> Pleased with that.


The man who would get Labour elected on the I can't believe its not tory ticket


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## Mr Moose (Apr 4, 2020)

He’s useless. You never see him public these days.


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## TheHoodedClaw (Apr 4, 2020)

The human windsock strikes again


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## cupid_stunt (Apr 4, 2020)

platinumsage said:


> That was Lisa Nandy. Kier is not of the north but of north London, and the Tories will like that.



Have you actually spoken to Tory party members?

Believe me, they thought Long-Bailey would be best for them, as they consider her a complete joke, Nandy next, as they consider her weak, what they didn't want was Starmer, as they consider him the only one electable.


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## redsquirrel (Apr 4, 2020)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> View attachment 204903
> 
> The human windsock strikes again


I don't see this piece as inconsistent with Jones politics. He's never pretended to be anything other than a left wing Labourite


> Starmer has committed to the policies long advocated by the left; and so the left’s role now is to act as the protectors and defenders of those ideas, to ensure that those red lines are not violated, and to develop a vision of what post-coronavirus Britain will look like. The left may have succeeded in giving otherwise cautious Labour politicians the courage of their convictions again, but pressure must be maintained to ensure this remains so. While the left has understandably expended much energy on electoral politics in the past five years, in post-pandemic Britain there must be a revival in extra-parliamentary struggles – from the climate emergency to workers’ rights – to build popular support for a decisive rupture from a broken status quo.


That's not a political viewpoint I can subscribe to but it is consistent with Jones political beliefs and reasonably sensible (ignoring the daft WWII analogy). Moreover, it is a viewpoint I thought you'd be in some sympathy with.


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## tim (Apr 4, 2020)

STARMINATE! STARMINTE!


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## TheHoodedClaw (Apr 4, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> Moreover, it is a viewpoint I thought you'd be in some sympathy with.



Yeah, after actually reading the piece, turns out it is. Sorry OJ!


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## Mr Moose (Apr 4, 2020)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> View attachment 204903
> 
> The human windsock strikes again



He ought to ‘succeed’. With Brexit and Covid19 it has to be a most opportune moment to make the case for state intervention, tackle precarcity, reform work and improve the environment. If he doesn’t it will be a crime.


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## Larry O'Hara (Apr 4, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Never forget.....


I won’t, one of many things I have against this creep


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## Larry O'Hara (Apr 4, 2020)

Beermoth said:


> Under my leadership we will engage constructively with the Government, not opposition for opposition's sake. Not scoring party political points or making impossible demands. But with the courage to support where that's the right thing to do.
> 
> 
> WAHEY LOWER YOUR EXPECTATIONS


I never had any expectations of Sir Smug so not possible


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## Pickman's model (Apr 4, 2020)

platinumsage said:


> That was Lisa Nandy. Kier is not of the north but of north London, and the Tories will like that.


He's from south London 

Unless Southwark has moved over the river


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## Larry O'Hara (Apr 4, 2020)

Mr Moose said:


> He ought to ‘succeed’. With Brexit and Covid19 it has to be a most opportune moment to make the case for state intervention, tackle precarcity, reform work and improve the environment. If he doesn’t it will be a crime.


He will fail: because the Tories are doing these things in a capitalist way. And as he is not anti-capitalist his role is to be little Sir Echo


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## Larry O'Hara (Apr 4, 2020)

keybored said:


> Do we have a noun for his disciples yet (a la "blairite", "corbynista" etc.)? Heard one gushing on the Today programme this morning.


The Blairite Undead?


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## krtek a houby (Apr 4, 2020)

keybored said:


> Do we have a noun for his disciples yet (a la "blairite", "corbynista" etc.)? Heard one gushing on the Today programme this morning.



Who Keirs?


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## SpookyFrank (Apr 4, 2020)

Starmer is a fucking worm and I hope one day to piss on his grave.


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## CNT36 (Apr 4, 2020)

keybored said:


> Do we have a noun for his disciples yet (a la "blairite", "corbynista" etc.)? Heard one gushing on the Today programme this morning.


Starmerers.


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## Smokeandsteam (Apr 4, 2020)

keybored said:


> Do we have a noun for his disciples yet (a la "blairite", "corbynista" etc.)? Heard one gushing on the Today programme this morning.



Remainers?


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## Smokeandsteam (Apr 4, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> Starmer is a fucking worm and I hope one day to piss on his grave.



That’s the spirit. Let’s put some effort into the hate...


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## kebabking (Apr 4, 2020)

i know i've been surprised by how poor RLB's campaign has been, and how poorly she's come across - but is anyone else surprised by how badly she's faired in the voting?


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## SE25 (Apr 4, 2020)

kebabking said:


> i know i've been surprised by how poor RLB's campaign has been, and how poorly she's come across - but is anyone else surprised by how badly she's faired in the voting?


wonder how long it'll take for the "socialists" who voted for Sir Haircut to regret it. Maybe when we see his first shadow cabinet


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## cupid_stunt (Apr 4, 2020)

kebabking said:


> i know i've been surprised by how poor RLB's campaign has been, and how poorly she's come across - but is anyone else surprised by how badly she's faired in the voting?



Nope, she came across as a hopeless case.


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## teqniq (Apr 4, 2020)

Heh.


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## ska invita (Apr 4, 2020)

heard on the news "Corbynites have lost the NEC" words to that effect? anyone know the details


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## mauvais (Apr 4, 2020)

kebabking said:


> i know i've been surprised by how poor RLB's campaign has been, and how poorly she's come across - but is anyone else surprised by how badly she's faired in the voting?


Not really. It wasn't just the campaign, she has never presented as leadership material, just someone's blissfully naive idea of Corbynite continuity - and I voted for her. Merely the most useful means to make a political gesture amongst a really bad selection.


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## Mr.Bishie (Apr 4, 2020)

SE25 said:


> wonder how long it'll take for the "socialists" who voted for Sir Haircut to regret it. Maybe when we see his first shadow cabinet



Brings back that bitter taste to the mouth, reminding me of when socialists & trade unionists clapped Heseltine during a Remain demo speech. Worse than Hitler.


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## cupid_stunt (Apr 4, 2020)

ska invita said:


> heard on the news "Corbynites have lost the NEC" words to that effect? anyone know the details


 IIRC 3 seats were up for election to the NEC, the Corbynites lost them all.


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## teqniq (Apr 4, 2020)

The tory stamp of approval.


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## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Apr 4, 2020)

Might just be me, but I'm not convinced making it clear in your first official statement that you want to work more closely with the government is a sign of more effective scrutiny to come. What do I know though.


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## fakeplasticgirl (Apr 4, 2020)

planetgeli said:


> StarmerChameleons


Keirleaders


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## prunus (Apr 4, 2020)

keybored said:


> Do we have a noun for his disciples yet (a la "blairite", "corbynista" etc.)? Heard one gushing on the Today programme this morning.



Edit damn too slow off the block. Deleted.


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## keybored (Apr 4, 2020)

prunus said:


> Edit damn too slow off the block. Deleted.


Needs to be a bit snappier than this, 2 words at most.


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## Chilli.s (Apr 4, 2020)

Starmertime, U Can't Touch This.


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## a_chap (Apr 4, 2020)

The Prodigy



Firestarmer


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## sleaterkinney (Apr 4, 2020)

I’m not sure he will win the next election, but I hope he will get together a better shadow cabinet and someone might come out of that.


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## TheHoodedClaw (Apr 4, 2020)

Busy workshopping a "keirie, eleison" gag


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## mauvais (Apr 4, 2020)

planetgeli said:


> StarmerChameleons


Starmer Starmer Starmer Starmer Starmer Keir-meleon
He has no views he cannot loo-ooh-ooh-oose
Centrism is easy you just do what the Tories do
In red not blue, in red not blu-ooh-ooh-ooh


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## Idris2002 (Apr 4, 2020)

There's a Starmer waiting in the sky.


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## Idris2002 (Apr 4, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Yes. Labour has been crying out for a leader from north London who designed the Party’s Brexit strategy. Neil Kinnock redux but with a posh nasally accent.
> 
> I do however agree that he’ll be leading labour into government. But it’ll be at the invitation of Boris Johnson


In Ireland, parties that do that are called "mudguards". And it doesn't end well for them.


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## imposs1904 (Apr 4, 2020)




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## rubbershoes (Apr 4, 2020)

Well I voted for him


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## Smokeandsteam (Apr 4, 2020)

kebabking said:


> i know i've been surprised by how poor RLB's campaign has been, and how poorly she's come across - but is anyone else surprised by how badly she's faired in the voting?



To finish third in the union section - with the backing of Unite, CWU and Momentum among others - is, and there is no way of spinning it any other way, a piss poor performance. Her campaign was abysmal and so, clearly, was the machine running it.

Two things strike me:

1.My union, the T&G (now Unite) has traditionally been the kingmaker in the Labour Party. Every Labour leader has relied on its backing and its support. It was the organic link to the organised working class.

Up until Thatcher the GS would normally end up a member of the Cabinet under a Labour government.

It’s worth remembering that during that period there were other big powerful unions too. I make that point to illustrate how big the fuck up by McLuskey has been. Backing a candidate who lost (for leader and deputy), backing candidates who finished third in the union section and squandering the influence the union could and should have is a massive misjudgment which should see him resign and disappear with his money into the sunset. It’s doubly so given the greater influence Unite now wields after 40 years of merger and union decline.

It’s revealing of the degraded culture of our union that he won’t and that he’ll carry on without a word of contrition. Embarrassing.

2. RLB, Burgon, the NEC results all indicate that Corbynism represents an ephemeral and passing phase in Labour rather than the transformational remaking of Labour as he and his supporters insist. The support hasn’t ebbed away, it’s flooded back to centrism.


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## killer b (Apr 4, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Backing a candidate who lost (for leader and deputy), backing candidates who finished third in the union section and squandering the influence the union could and should have is a misjudgment which should see him resign and disappear with his money into the sunset. It’s revealing of the degraded culture of our union that he won’t and that he’ll carry on without a word of contrition.


should he have backed starmer?


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## Smokeandsteam (Apr 4, 2020)

killer b said:


> should he have backed starmer?



He should have backed Rayner. As I said at the time


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## killer b (Apr 4, 2020)

who should he have backed for leader?


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## Smokeandsteam (Apr 4, 2020)

killer b said:


> who should he have backed for leader?



Rayner. Lavery or preferably Trickett for Deputy.


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## belboid (Apr 4, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> To finish third in the union section - with the backing of Unite, CWU and Momentum among others - is, and there is no way of spinning it any other way, a piss poor performance. Her campaign was abysmal and so, clearly, was the machine running it.
> 
> Two things strike me:
> 
> ...


The union vote has always been to the right of the membership (while its had a direct vote), that's no massive surprise.  Nandy did get the support of GMB & NUM too, dont forget.  Not that I'm denying it is a poor performance. 

No TGWU leader since Bevin during the war has gone on to be a cabinet member.  While it is very important, more so than Momentum, it's not quite as strong as you make out and this will make no difference to McCluskey's leadership.  We may even find that most Unite members voted RLB as well, in which chase, he would simply be articulating the memberships wishes.  We'll see (maybe).

And on 2, the point wasn't that it was _de facto_ transformational, it was about the possibility of it being so. And it has at least brought more people together who want to fight on a class basis, so the task now is what to do to hold those people together, rather than sneer and go 'told you so'


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## killer b (Apr 4, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Rayner. Lavery or preferably Trickett for Deputy.


But Rayner didn't stand? I know lots of people wanted her to, but it didn't happen. Surely the unions have to choose to support people who're actually standing, rather than ones who aren't?


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## belboid (Apr 4, 2020)

Nor did Lavery or Trickett, of course


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## Smokeandsteam (Apr 4, 2020)

I thought belboid and killer b were the urbanites with their finger on the Labour left pulse? Everyone knows the delay to the RLB campaign was caused by McLuskey (and others) having second thoughts.

If Unite had made clear its support for Rayner to run for leader she’d have been running.


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## belboid (Apr 4, 2020)

But they were considering Nandy not Rayner.  She was never on the agenda.   You're off in fantasy land.


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## Smokeandsteam (Apr 4, 2020)

belboid said:


> But they were considering Nandy not Rayner.  She was never on the agenda.   You're off in fantasy land.



Wrong (as usual)


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## belboid (Apr 4, 2020)

Phew, another compelling argument from S&S!  Which I'm sure he'll back up any moment.

And, lets not forget, Rayner isn't that bloody left either, another 'pragmatic' politician.


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## Smokeandsteam (Apr 4, 2020)

belboid said:


> Phew, another compelling argument from S&S!  Which I'm sure he'll back up any moment.
> 
> And, lets not forget, Rayner isn't that bloody left either, another 'pragmatic' politician.



Rayner‘s class experience set her apart from all of the other candidates. As for ‘left’ politics I’d make two comments:

1. Unlike other candidates she correctly understood Brexit - the defining issue that defeated Corbynism - as a class issue rather than as one about parliamentary manoeuvres and 2. As I’m sure even you know building a genuine left organisation is a bottom up and not top down process. You don’t need to search far from this thread to see what happens when the left throws it lot in behind the ‘great leader’ approach


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## killer b (Apr 4, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I thought belboid and killer b were the urbanites with their finger on the Labour left pulse?


Hardly, I just read some articles on the internet like everyone else. They all said Rayner was never in the running 'cause her and RLB are best pals and wouldn't run against each other. Maybe I missed some though.


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## Smokeandsteam (Apr 4, 2020)

Talking of fucking dribble, first Mason, now Jones. How long before the rest of the media left fall into line with the new middle class centrist order...









						Starmer can succeed, and he deserves our support | Owen Jones
					

The new Labour leader is starting in unenviable circumstances, but anyone with progressive sympathies should swing fully behind him, says Guardian columnist Owen Jones




					www.theguardian.com


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## killer b (Apr 4, 2020)

I'm reminded why I've not bothered paying much attention to this recently though, so thanks for that.


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## Idris2002 (Apr 4, 2020)

So what happens when he loses the next election?


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## strung out (Apr 4, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Rayner‘s class experience set her apart from all of the other candidates. As for ‘left’ politics I’d make two comments:
> 
> 1. Unlike other candidates she correctly understood Brexit - the defining issue that defeated Corbynism - as a class issue rather than as one about parliamentary manoeuvres and 2. As I’m sure even you know building a genuine left organisation is a bottom up and not top down process. You don’t need to search far from this thread to see what happens when the left throws it lot in behind the ‘great leader’ approach


Didn't Rayner abstain on the 2015 Welfare Reform bill which you were (rightly) very critical of Starmer for doing?


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## AmateurAgitator (Apr 4, 2020)

The Labour Leadership election, an exercise in irrelevance says Martin


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## bimble (Apr 4, 2020)

For someone who is not clued up at all on internal Labour Party stuff , how come this happened? I mean I thought only members get to vote and the membership apart from unions / affiliates was mostly  people who joined for corbyn so - has the membership changed ?


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## Labourite (Apr 4, 2020)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> View attachment 204903
> 
> The human windsock strikes again


Agree with Jones, the party should get behind him. Let's hope he delivers on some of his promises to nationalise rail, mail and water, scrap tuition fees and repeal anti-trade union laws.

I see Polly Toynbee has thrown her weight fully behind Starmer. No surprises there.


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## killer b (Apr 4, 2020)

bimble said:


> For someone who is not clued up at all on internal Labour Party stuff , how come this happened? I mean I thought only members get to vote and the membership apart from unions / affiliates was mostly  people who joined for corbyn so - has the membership changed ?


Same membership for the most part. The popular conception of the bulk of the party being wild-eyed Corbynites was wrong is all.


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## The39thStep (Apr 4, 2020)

Count Cuckula said:


> The Labour Leadership election, an exercise in irrelevance says Martin



So is Martin tbh


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## Puddy_Tat (Apr 4, 2020)

Idris2002 said:


> So what happens when he loses the next election?



the blairites will take it as a sign that the party hasn't moved far enough to the right and will blame the corbynites for not being loyal / united enough...



killer b said:


> Same membership for the most part. The popular conception of the bulk of the party being wild-eyed Corbynites was wrong is all.



must admit i've not followed it that closely, but haven't a lot of people joined / re-joined the party in the last few months?  and wouldn't mind betting that they were not investigated as closely for possibly having shown any signs of support for the tories / lib dems in the past as people who joined around the last leadership election were investigated for possibly having shown any support for anything mildly left wing...


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## Hollis (Apr 4, 2020)

bimble said:


> For someone who is not clued up at all on internal Labour Party stuff , how come this happened? I mean I thought only members get to vote and the membership apart from unions / affiliates was mostly  people who joined for corbyn so - has the membership changed ?



Dunno really - turnout was alot lower than 2015.  I think with political parties, alot of people join up at a moment of excitment and then are basically passive.  Maybe alot of the 2015 joiners have drifted away/not bothered voting...


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## bimble (Apr 4, 2020)

killer b said:


> Same membership for the most part. The popular conception of the bulk of the party being wild-eyed Corbynites was wrong is all.


Just found this, old but interesting- looks like the new members were pretty much same as the old members apart from some difference in how they see themselves. Explaining the pro-Corbyn surge in Labour’s membership


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## killer b (Apr 4, 2020)

Puddy_Tat said:


> must admit i've not followed it that closely, but haven't a lot of people joined / re-joined the party in the last few months?


sure,  but the rejoiners left the party after Corbyn won, not before, and voted for the candidate of the right again. There's a big swing vote in the middle who voted Corbyn in 2015 & 2016, and Starmer this time round.


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## belboid (Apr 4, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Rayner‘s class experience set her apart from all of the other candidates. As for ‘left’ politics I’d make two comments:
> 
> 1. Unlike other candidates she correctly understood Brexit - the defining issue that defeated Corbynism - as a class issue rather than as one about parliamentary manoeuvres and 2. As I’m sure even you know building a genuine left organisation is a bottom up and not top down process. You don’t need to search far from this thread to see what happens when the left throws it lot in behind the ‘great leader’ approach


so, nothing about Unite going to back her? Which is what you said is rubbish.

And her experience makes her a good communicator, much better then RLB, but it takes rather then that to be a decent bloody leader.


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## imposs1904 (Apr 4, 2020)

Idris2002 said:


> So what happens when he loses the next election?



Is David Miliband's passport still valid or has he let it lapse since moving to the States?


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## Smokeandsteam (Apr 4, 2020)

Idris2002 said:


> So what happens when he loses the next election?





belboid said:


> so, nothing about Unite going to back her? Which is what you said is rubbish.
> 
> And her experience makes her a good communicator, much better then RLB, but it takes rather then that to be a decent bloody leader.



I don’t claim Rayner is perfect. I claim that of the candidates she was the best available due to 3 factors: her lived class experience, that she instinctively understood Brexit for the class issue it was and that it was a choice between _being seen to defend the status quo or reject it _and finally that she was committed to the mass mobilisation of resources to working class communities.

As for Unite I understand that LM was torn between AR, RLB and Ian Lavery. McDonnell was obviously punting RLB, some of his closest allies wanted Lavery and others Rayner. The reason why RLB entered the contest like a stunned tortoise was due to the internal wrangling, the Blair/Brown RLB/Rayner chat and the internals within Unite.


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## Labourite (Apr 4, 2020)

Lots of names already being touted for Starmer's shadow cabinet and they would suggest a shift back to the right. McDonnell, Abbott, Burgon etc... all out to be potentially replaced by Reeves, Cooper, Dodds, Miliband etc... according to this article.








						Who will be in Keir Starmer's shadow cabinet?
					

A large clear out of Jeremy Corbyn’s defeated and demoralised top team appears certain




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## Serge Forward (Apr 4, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> So is Martin tbh


Ouch! Catty.


----------



## belboid (Apr 4, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I don’t claim Rayner is perfect. I claim that of the candidates she was the best available due to 3 factors: her lived class experience, that she instinctively understood Brexit for the class issue it was and that it was a choice between _being seen to defend the status quo or reject it _and finally that she was committed to the mass mobilisation of resources to working class communities.
> 
> As for Unite I understand that LM was torn between AR, RLB and Ian Lavery. McDonnell was obviously punting RLB, some of his closest allies wanted Lavery and others Rayner. The reason why RLB entered the contest like a stunned tortoise was due to the internal wrangling, the Blair/Brown RLB/Rayner chat and the internals within Unite.


This is nearly all just wrong.

Her experience is good, no one denies that. You misrepresent her view on Brexit tho, christ, she said she'd vote remain if a second referendum was called. ON that, she is almost exactly the same as Nandy. And Long Bailey and Nandy also supported resources in working-class communities.  So did Jess Phillips.

As to Unite, they were considering Rayner and Lavery for _deputy.  _Because that's what Rayner was standing for. RLB did do badly in her first meeting, which is why they were considering supporting Nandy.


----------



## Marty1 (Apr 4, 2020)

Big Bertha said:


> He can’t be worse than the last one.



Starmer in a teacup.


----------



## redsquirrel (Apr 4, 2020)

bimble said:


> For someone who is not clued up at all on internal Labour Party stuff , how come this happened? I mean I thought only members get to vote and the membership apart from unions / affiliates was mostly  people who joined for corbyn so - has the membership changed ?


What killer b said, the Labour Party has socialists in it but it has never really been a socialist party. Corbyn won in 2015 because he was the only candidate that was willing to stand on an even vaguely social democratic platform, now that the centre of gravity has moved back (at least rhetorically) towards social democracy most members are not going to back a candidate from the left.


----------



## agricola (Apr 4, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> What killer b said, the Labour Party has socialists in it but it has never really been a socialist party. Corbyn won in 2015 because he was the only candidate that was willing to stand on an even vaguely social democratic platform, now that the centre of gravity has moved back (at least rhetorically) towards social democracy most members are not going to back a candidate from the left.



TBF I don't even think it was that; he was just the one candidate in 2015 who wouldn't obviously fail.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 4, 2020)

kebabking said:


> i know i've been surprised by how poor RLB's campaign has been, and how poorly she's come across - but is anyone else surprised by how badly she's faired in the voting?


Yes, I thought she'd do worse


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 4, 2020)

imposs1904 said:


> Is David Miliband's passport still valid or has he let it lapse since moving to the States?


So what happens when Miliband D. loses the election after that?  The various heaves against JC didn't exactly hint at a deep gene-pool of talent.


----------



## Shechemite (Apr 4, 2020)

Der Starmer


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 4, 2020)

belboid said:


> This is nearly all just wrong.
> 
> Her experience is good, no one denies that. You misrepresent her view on Brexit tho, christ, she said she'd vote remain if a second referendum was called. ON that, she is almost exactly the same as Nandy. And Long Bailey and Nandy also supported resources in working-class communities.  So did Jess Phillips.
> 
> As to Unite, they were considering Rayner and Lavery for _deputy.  _Because that's what Rayner was standing for. RLB did do badly in her first meeting, which is why they were considering supporting Nandy.



I can’t be bothered to argue the toss with you. So let’s agree you are right and Rayner is a gibbering remainer, that there was never an internal debate _before _candidates declared for the respective posts and let’s also pretend Jess Philips is committed to rebuilding working class communities. Happy now?

ETA: you've either deliberately mixed up the point at which they briefly considered Nandy to suit your pointless point scoring or you are even more dense than I’d realised. Either way, my point - which you’ve sought to fog - is that RLB’s campaign was a joke, her performance embarrassing and those who promoted her especially McLuskey should now go and do something else as they useless in the pursuit of class politics.

Even the FT has called for pro-active state capitalism just as Labour charges back to the centre.

Bye now...


----------



## Beermoth (Apr 4, 2020)

So it's been ten hours - why aren't Labour twenty points ahead yet?


----------



## killer b (Apr 4, 2020)

Have they done a poll?


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Apr 4, 2020)

killer b said:


> Have they done a poll?



I got a YouGov voting intention poll about mid-day today, fwiw.


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Apr 4, 2020)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> Maybe they'll do another one about how the terrible sexist Labour members have elected a man again.



tbf quite looking forward to the press roasting him over worboys/symonds.


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Apr 4, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Yes. Labour has been crying out for a leader from north London who designed the Party’s Brexit strategy. Neil Kinnock redux but with a posh nasally accent.
> 
> I do however agree that he’ll be leading labour into government. But it’ll be at the invitation of Boris Johnson



he's from sarf london actually, southwark..

actually we had a pretty hard brexiteer down here in barnet, mrs. Theresa Villiers...


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Apr 4, 2020)

dialectician said:


> tbf quite looking forward to the press roasting him over worboys/symonds.



Genuine question: What role does the DPP have in sentencing guidelines and parole board decisions? This isn't any kind of gotcha attempt - I live in Scotland and I know our system reasonably well, but don't know much about England&Wales's.


----------



## Indeliblelink (Apr 4, 2020)




----------



## Larry O'Hara (Apr 4, 2020)

bimble said:


> For someone who is not clued up at all on internal Labour Party stuff , how come this happened? I mean I thought only members get to vote and the membership apart from unions / affiliates was mostly  people who joined for corbyn so - has the membership changed ?


114,000 joined after the election: obviously to defeat the Left. And most party members are so anxious to get Labour elected they have omitted to consider that electing a neo-Blairite like Starmer would be pointless. Mugs.


----------



## killer b (Apr 4, 2020)

It's not really fair to call Starmer a Blairite, he's more like Ed Miliband, but without all the charisma.


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Apr 4, 2020)

Labourite said:


> Lots of names already being touted for Starmer's shadow cabinet and they would suggest a shift back to the right. McDonnell, Abbott, Burgon etc... all out to be potentially replaced by Reeves, Cooper, Dodds, Miliband etc... according to this article.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


We‘ll have to see but I surmise Starmers idea of unity is the Corbynistas all digging their own political graves.


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Apr 4, 2020)

Labourite said:


> Agree with Jones, the party should get behind him. Let's hope he delivers on some of his promises to nationalise rail, mail and water, scrap tuition fees and repeal anti-trade union laws.


they aren’t really his promises: just sound-bytes he used to fool the gullible. The only really interesting thing is which policy he djitches first: maybe we should open a book on it



> I see Polly Toynbee has thrown her weight fully behind Starmer. No surprises there.
> 
> View attachment 204969


The curse of Toynbee: if that toad likes you then you are definitely a waste of space


----------



## William of Walworth (Apr 4, 2020)

I see from that Indy article that there's speculation about Ed Miliband being brought into the shadow team.
If he was given Environment, I actually think he'd be not bad at all  -- I've said this before.
To EM's credit also, he never -- as far as I know? -- got into anti-Corbyn plotting, or even public criticism?


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Apr 4, 2020)

William of Walworth said:


> I see from that Indy article that there's speculation about Ed Miliband being brouught into the shadow team.
> If he was given Environment, I actually think he'd be not bad at all  -- I've said this before.
> To EM's credit also, he never -- as far as I know? -- got into anti-Corbyn plotting, or even public criticism?


Yes he’s quite personable really, and preferable to that Diego Garcia-betraying jackass his brother


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 4, 2020)

dialectician said:


> he's from sarf london actually, southwark..
> 
> actually we had a pretty hard brexiteer down here in barnet, mrs. Theresa Villiers...



He’s the MP for Camden.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Apr 5, 2020)

Is he technically karl marx's mp


----------



## William of Walworth (Apr 5, 2020)

Smokeandsteam : It's possible dialectician just meant this :




			
				Wikipedia said:
			
		

> Keir Rodney Starmer was born in Southwark, London, on 2 September 1962[1][2] and grew up in the small town of Oxted in Surrey



He's a few days younger than me!! 

Also, his constituency is Holborn and St. Pancras, just while we're on boring facts ......


----------



## Proper Tidy (Apr 5, 2020)

Holborn and st pancras is basically camden though isn't it or have I got my london geography wrong again. Then again in my pariochial village ways I'd call that central london


----------



## William of Walworth (Apr 5, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Is he technically karl marx's mp



Holborn and St. Pancras extends surprisingly far North in London, so it's definitely _possible_ that it includes Highgate Cemetery, I can't find a clear map though ....

And yes, in the London Borough of Camden, which is big. 
That borough was also my birthplace (although called the Borough of St. Pancras back then!) which is why I know this shit


----------



## oryx (Apr 5, 2020)

William of Walworth said:


> To EM's credit also, he never -- as far as I know? -- got into anti-Corbyn plotting, or even public criticism?


I'm certainly not aware that he did, and if he did it wasn't high profile.

I wish some of his fellow MPs had been as decent and loyal. I'm sure Ed Miliband didn't agree with everything Corbyn said and did, but there are ways and means of disagreeing over party policy or direction, and for being discreet he has my respect. 

I'd be very happy to see him in the Shadow Cabinet.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 5, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Is he technically karl marx's mp



I think Charlie currently resides in the Hampstead and Kilburn constituency.


----------



## belboid (Apr 5, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I can’t be bothered to argue the toss with you. So let’s agree you are right and Rayner is a gibbering remainer, that there was never an internal debate _before _candidates declared for the respective posts and let’s also pretend Jess Philips is committed to rebuilding working class communities. Happy now?
> 
> ETA: you've either deliberately mixed up the point at which they briefly considered Nandy to suit your pointless point scoring or you are even more dense than I’d realised. Either way, my point - which you’ve sought to fog - is that RLB’s campaign was a joke, her performance embarrassing and those who promoted her especially McLuskey should now go and do something else as they useless in the pursuit of class politics.
> 
> ...


sorry, but your timeline is all off. RLB & rayner struck a pact within days of the election.  The latter was _never _in consideration for the leadership. No one considered Lavery for deputy till Burgon was rubbish either.  And you are just gilding Rayner's lily in terms of her politics. Her lived experience would count for fuck all when surrounded by the more right-wing cabinet (than Corbyn or RLB) she'd appoint.


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Apr 5, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> He’s the MP for Camden.



sure, but he's not a north londoner!


----------



## belboid (Apr 5, 2020)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> Genuine question: What role does the DPP have in sentencing guidelines and parole board decisions? This isn't any kind of gotcha attempt - I live in Scotland and I know our system reasonably well, but don't know much about England&Wales's.


They dont set the guidelines at all, but do set out what prosecutors might 'reasonably' ask. And they have bugger all to do with parole board decisions. However, Starmer screwed himself by overtalking his role both in allowing the prosecution to ask for harsher sentences and in being happy with the sentence Worboys got.  He could have prosecuted Worboys for more crimes (which is where the parole questions come in), but given the definition of an 'indeterminte sentence' at the time, it probably would have added little if anything to his sentence.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Apr 5, 2020)




----------



## Puddy_Tat (Apr 5, 2020)

mum-tat in this evening's e-mail says she approves of starmer


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Apr 5, 2020)

.


----------



## Petcha (Apr 5, 2020)

Um. Where is Labour going to go now that the tories have become socialists in the last few weeks?

I like the idea of Starmer, obviously compared to the bizarre car crash that were the Corbyn years but given dishy rishi and hancock have made mammoth changes to virtually every sphere of government in a matter of weeks I can't see what ground he can occupy. The previous position was always attacking austerity, an easy target. But that's gone.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Apr 5, 2020)

Petcha said:


> Um. Where is Labour going to go now that the tories have become socialists in the last few weeks?


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Apr 5, 2020)

dialectician said:


> sure, but he's not a north londoner!




He lives in Kentish Town. In the same street as my sister, as it goes.


I live in Brixton, I’m a Sarf Londoner, my sister is a Norf Londoner. We were both born in central London.

I’m guessing KS considers himself Norf, cos he’s put down roots there. I’ll get my sister to ask him when the lockdown ends.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Apr 5, 2020)

Petcha said:


> Um. Where is Labour going to go now that the tories have become socialists in the last few weeks?
> 
> I like the idea of Starmer, obviously compared to the bizarre car crash that were the Corbyn years but given dishy rishi and hancock have made mammoth changes to virtually every sphere of government in a matter of weeks I can't see what ground he can occupy. The previous position was always attacking austerity, an easy target. But that's gone.




Has it?
REally?


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Apr 5, 2020)

Mr.Bishie said:


>




I’m going to assume that was fairly tongue in cheek....


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 5, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Holborn and st pancras is basically camden though isn't it or have I got my london geography wrong again. Then again in my pariochial village ways I'd call that central london


Except for the hampsteads. Holborn and st p two of the former metropolitan boroughs which combined to form the lb camden.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 5, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> He’s the MP for Camden.


No he's not. London boroughs tend to have two mps eg Meg hillier hackney South and Shoreditch, Diane Abbott hackney north and Stoke newington


----------



## redsquirrel (Apr 5, 2020)

Mason's latest piece if anyone fancies a laugh, though TBF it is probably less mad than a lot of the stuff he's posted recently


> Starmer’s pitch is that, if every faction of the party agrees to work together, and we construct a narrative designed to win back the both the lost small towns, and the offensive target marginals — we dont have to abandon social liberalism or seek an electoral pact.
> 
> Implicitly, however, we then have to prepared for Labour to become the electoral pact (at least in England) — and that means creating a space in our voting coalition for working class people who vote Tory because of social conservatism, nationalism and economic centrism, and those who voted Libdem/Green/SNP/PC for the exactly opposite reasons.


Though I do like this example of a success of the Corbyn project


> Meanwhile left think-tank world has moved left: we’ve got Autonomy and Common Wealth, Labour for a Green New Deak, Platform etc — plus the IPPR and NEF both moved left during Jeremy’s leadership, and NEON has been a brilliant offshoot. We also saw, with Real Change Labs, what could have been achieved if there’d been more interest in US-style campaign techniques.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 5, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> No he's not. London boroughs tend to have two mps eg Meg hillier hackney South and Shoreditch, Diane Abbott hackney north and Stoke newington



I accept he’s not the MP for a small western portion but I like even more that he’s the MP for Covent Garden: “The seat of Holborn and St Pancras as drawn in 2010 is composed of all but a small western portion of the London Borough of Camden and extends from most of Covent Garden and Bloomsbury in the heart of the West End of London through other areas of the NW1 postal district, north and in elevation terms upwards through trendy and economically diverse Camden Town to the affluent suburb of Highgate in a long strip.”


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 5, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> Mason's latest piece if anyone fancies a laugh, though TBF it is probably less mad than a lot of the stuff he's posted recently



It is less mad. It’s also good that he’s clarified what he means by ‘Stalinism’.

However, the idea that Starmer is the leader who will unite Labour around a new Italian Autonomist type understanding of neo-liberalism does seem to indicate that Mason is far from cured.

His throwaway point that he had to back Starmer as a rearguard action to stop Lexiteers taking over the party is provocative, offered as a fact rather than wild speculation and not evidenced. He does this all the time.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 5, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I accept he’s not the MP for a small western portion but I like even more that he’s the MP for Covent Garden: “The seat of Holborn and St Pancras as drawn in 2010 is composed of all but a small western portion of the London Borough of Camden and extends from most of Covent Garden and Bloomsbury in the heart of the West End of London through other areas of the NW1 postal district, north and in elevation terms upwards through trendy and economically diverse Camden Town to the affluent suburb of Highgate in a long strip.”


The small western strip is about as broad east west as the breadth of the constituency represented by Starmer.


----------



## chilango (Apr 5, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> Mason's latest piece if anyone fancies a laugh, though TBF it is probably less mad than a lot of the stuff he's posted recently
> 
> Though I do like this example of a success of the Corbyn project



Sorry, being uncharitable, I couldn't get past the feeling that it was just a list of name-checking anything and everything the cool kids might have heard of in a bid to frame his capitulation in relevance.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 5, 2020)

chilango said:


> Sorry, being uncharitable, I couldn't get past the feeling that it was just a list of name-checking anything and everything the cool kids might have heard of in a bid to frame his capitulation in relevance.



I follow his twitter with unhealthy interest (I remain fascinated at the political degeneration. How do you get from ‘Live Working’ to the mess he’s become). His ejection from some of the ‘cool kids’ groups is painfully fascinating. A middle aged bloke desperately trying to belong is evident. Part of it is a class thing - Mason betrays his working class lack of confidence - but it does also seem to speak to some sort of mid life crisis too. It’s sad because the ideas and writing he used to do brilliantly is head and shoulder above some of the empty guff he’s desperately hanging around the peripheries of now


----------



## Proper Tidy (Apr 5, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> It is less mad. It’s also good that he’s clarified what he means by ‘Stalinism’.
> 
> However, the idea that Starmer is the leader who will unite Labour around a new Italian Autonomist type understanding of neo-liberalism does seem to indicate that Mason is far from cured.
> 
> His throwaway point that he had to back Starmer as a rearguard action to stop Lexiteers taking over the party is provocative, offered as a fact rather than wild speculation and not evidenced. He does this all the time.



He quotes nandy as saying 'don't take sides in strikes' - is that true?


----------



## chilango (Apr 5, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I follow his twitter with unhealthy interest (I remain fascinated at the political degeneration. How do you get from ‘Live Working’ to the mess he’s become). His ejection from some of the ‘cool kids’ groups is painfully fascinating. A middle aged bloke desperately trying to belong is evident. Part of it is a class thing - Mason betrays his working class lack of confidence - but it does also seem to speak to some sort of mid life crisis too. It’s sad because the ideas and writing he used to do brilliantly is head and shoulder above some of the empty guff he’s desperately hanging around the peripheries of now



It'll be interesting* to see what direction the "cool kids" go too. I can't see them all hanging around a centrist Labour Party for too long. 

*Well, it really won't, but you get my drift.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 5, 2020)

chilango said:


> It'll be interesting* to see what direction the "cool kids" go too. I can't see them all hanging around a centrist Labour Party for too long.
> 
> *Well, it really won't, but you get my drift.



Some will discover their centrist politics rapidly I suspect. Some will drift out of politics in the time honoured fashion of left politics ultimately taking the energy and desire for change of the young and squandering it. As for the others it’s hard to see a return to cobweb left sects. Let’s hope that_ something _survives the unravelling 

PS. IIRC it was you I’ve got the ‘thank’ for suggesting I didn’t listen to tyskysour? I’ve now begun listening. Bastani’s top 20 books remains seared into my mind. Their ‘hot takes’ are also revealing So, erm, yeah. Thanks for that


----------



## chilango (Apr 5, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> PS. IIRC it was you I’ve got the ‘thank’ for suggesting I didn’t listen to tyskysour? I’ve now begun listening. Bastani’s top 20 books remains seared into my mind. Their ‘hot takes’ are also revealing So, erm, yeah. Thanks for that



Sorry about that.


----------



## redsquirrel (Apr 5, 2020)

chilango said:


> Sorry, being uncharitable, I couldn't get past the feeling that it was just a list of name-checking anything and everything the cool kids might have heard of in a bid to frame his capitulation in relevance.


Oh yeah it is still rubbish and you're absolutely right about the name checking, but it's not as crazy as the post-election nonsense


----------



## planetgeli (Apr 5, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Is he technically karl marx's mp



That's a ridiculously hard question to answer. (I've just tried). Google gave two different answers on two attempts with the same question. I _think _the answer is Highgate cemetery is in Hornsey & Wood Green (my old constituency for 5 years) but it might be in Holborn & St Pancras or even (but unlikely) in Hampstead & Kilburn. 

Doesn't help that the cemetery itself is in no less than 3 London boroughs, Camden, Haringey and Islington.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 5, 2020)

planetgeli said:


> That's a ridiculously hard question to answer. (I've just tried). Google gave two different answers on two attempts with the same question. I _think _the answer is Highgate cemetery is in Hornsey & Wood Green (my old constituency for 5 years) but it might be in Holborn & St Pancras or even (but unlikely) in Hampstead & Kilburn.
> 
> Doesn't help that the cemetery itself is in no less than 3 London boroughs, Camden, Haringey and Islington.


All of the cemetery is in starmer's constituency


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 5, 2020)

planetgeli said:


> Doesn't help that the cemetery itself is in no less than 3 London boroughs, Camden, Haringey and Islington.


Factionalism?


----------



## Labourite (Apr 5, 2020)

Anyone see Starmer on Andrew Marr this morning?


----------



## planetgeli (Apr 5, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> All of the cemetery is in starmer's constituency
> 
> View attachment 205037



Thanks Pickman's model . It's Sunday (I think) and I was trying from a position of just opening my eyes.


----------



## toblerone3 (Apr 5, 2020)

This link suggests that KS's constituency does indeed cover the site of Karl Marx's grave.  https://www.visionofbritain.org.uk/unit/12741406/boundary


----------



## toblerone3 (Apr 5, 2020)

This..


----------



## teqniq (Apr 5, 2020)

She has a point:


----------



## Ted Striker (Apr 5, 2020)

When you compare our situation to the US currently, with Bernie (and his supporters) recognising the overwhelming evil in Trump, and declaring that they'll vote for Biden if they lose the Democrat Primary...You'd hope some of that would rub off on the UK left.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Apr 5, 2020)

Petcha said:


> Um. Where is Labour going to go now that the tories have become socialists in the last few weeks?
> 
> I like the idea of Starmer, obviously compared to the bizarre car crash that were the Corbyn years but given dishy rishi and hancock have made mammoth changes to virtually every sphere of government in a matter of weeks I can't see what ground he can occupy. The previous position was always attacking austerity, an easy target. But that's gone.


Just wait til Austerity 2.0 kicks in. "Tighten belts. Eat gruel. Pay back the NHS."


----------



## brogdale (Apr 5, 2020)

planetgeli said:


> That's a ridiculously hard question to answer. (I've just tried). Google gave two different answers on two attempts with the same question. I _think _the answer is Highgate cemetery is in Hornsey & Wood Green (my old constituency for 5 years) but it might be in Holborn & St Pancras or even (but unlikely) in Hampstead & Kilburn.
> 
> Doesn't help that the cemetery itself is in no less than 3 London boroughs, Camden, Haringey and Islington.


The (open access) OS 'Election Maps' site can be very useful for attempting to resolve issues around administrative boundaries & the like.


----------



## tedsplitter (Apr 5, 2020)

Edited cos someone got there before me with Starmtroopers


----------



## tedsplitter (Apr 5, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Yes. Labour has been crying out for a leader from north London who designed the Party’s Brexit strategy. Neil Kinnock redux but with a posh nasally accent.
> 
> I do however agree that he’ll be leading labour into government. But it’ll be at the invitation of Boris Johnson



Less Kier, more Ramsay


----------



## agricola (Apr 5, 2020)

Ted Striker said:


> When you compare our situation to the US currently, with Bernie (and his supporters) recognising the overwhelming evil in Trump, and declaring that they'll vote for Biden if they lose the Democrat Primary...You'd hope some of that would rub off on the UK left.



I'd settle for some of it rubbing off on the centre and centre-left, tbh.


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Apr 5, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> Mason's latest piece if anyone fancies a laugh, though TBF it is probably less mad than a lot of the stuff he's posted recently



interesting as he always is, but all over the place politically. His name-dropping does not negate the facts that

a) he tilts against imaginary enemies as a code for justifying his rightward shift

b) Starmer is not on the Left nor will he take on Left ideas

c) the Labour Right will not unite with those they have tried to destroy

d) this is a time for the Left to regroup for a renewed war of position. But then, Mason has shown he is a self-promoting mouthpiece, about as intellectually consistent as Owen Jones but using longer words

enough already


----------



## ska invita (Apr 5, 2020)

bimble said:


> For someone who is not clued up at all on internal Labour Party stuff , how come this happened? I mean I thought only members get to vote and the membership apart from unions / affiliates was mostly  people who joined for corbyn so - has the membership changed ?



I think Corbyn-joiners who now voted for Starmer based on best of the choices on offer aren't such a rare breed as might be expected.



Puddy_Tat said:


> mum-tat in this evening's e-mail says she approves of starmer



Anecdotaly, of some older LP people I know (sample size 3) they genuinely support Starmer, not as the best of a bad bunch, but on his merits. I expect there'll be some age demographics regarding who voted for who.

Also a majority of LP members, very much including young ones, are for want of a better word Remainers, who don't personally see Kier as having done anything wrong on Brexit , the opposite in fact


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 5, 2020)

tedsplitter said:


> Less Kier, more Ramsay


It'll be more kir


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 5, 2020)

I see "Keir Starmer Jimmy Savile" is trending on twitter.

If you didn't laugh you'd cry.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Apr 5, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Anecdotaly, of some older LP people I know (sample size 3) they genuinely support Starmer, not as the best of a bad bunch, but on his merits. I expect there'll be some age demographics regarding who voted for who.



mum-tat is not really a LP person.  i really don't get my politics from her, she was a liberal party activist in the early 60s, and to the best of my knowledge has voted for all three of the main parties in the last 30 years but probably fairly typical of the floating voter that parties need to win general elections (although her seat - a marginal 30 years ago - is now safe labour)  but also (statistically less common for the 80+ voters) a remain voter.


----------



## A380 (Apr 5, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Some will discover their centrist politics rapidly I suspect. Some will drift out of politics in the time honoured fashion of left politics ultimately taking the energy and desire for change of the young and squandering it. As for the others it’s hard to see a return to cobweb left sects. Let’s hope that_ something _survives the unravelling
> 
> PS. IIRC it was you I’ve got the ‘thank’ for suggesting I didn’t listen to tyskysour? I’ve now begun listening. Bastani’s top 20 books remains seared into my mind. Their ‘hot takes’ are also revealing So, erm, yeah. Thanks for that


Thats what happened after Millitant collapsed.


----------



## wtfftw (Apr 5, 2020)

Karl Marx
Swain's Ln
Highgate
London
N6 6PJ









						Find your MP - MPs and Lords - UK Parliament
					

Enter your postcode, location, MPs name or job title to find the name and contact details of your local MP.




					members.parliament.uk
				




Starmer


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Apr 5, 2020)

Labourite said:


> Anyone see Starmer on Andrew Marr this morning?



no, he's capable of putting anyone jacked up on speed to sleep.

has about 100th the chance of being as electable as Corbyn. which should tell you everything. but then labour party nostalgists have never been the brightest fish in the pond, have they?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 5, 2020)

wtfftw said:


> Karl Marx
> Swain's Ln
> Highgate
> London
> ...


If marx was still living at his previous London address, where he was at the end of his life, Starmer would still be his mp


----------



## wtfftw (Apr 5, 2020)

There were go then.

Important stuff.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 5, 2020)

Beer over keyboard moment...and not in good way.


----------



## chilango (Apr 5, 2020)

I imagine plenty of those I know who claimed they couldn't vote Labour under Corbyn will big up Starmer.....and then still vote Tory/Lib Dem come election day.


----------



## imposs1904 (Apr 5, 2020)




----------



## Buddy Bradley (Apr 6, 2020)

Has anyone else noticed that the only clip the BBC plays when talking about Starmer is one of him visiting a hospital and shaking everyone's hand? It's an ... _interesting_ choice of library footage, given the current climate.


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 6, 2020)

Buddy Bradley said:


> Has anyone else noticed that the only clip the BBC plays when talking about Starmer is one of him visiting a hospital and shaking everyone's hand? It's an ... _interesting_ choice of library footage, given the current climate.


Only an idiot would think that they're not going to repeat the monstering Corbyn got when it comes to Starmer.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Apr 6, 2020)

Tbf they won't be able to monster him in the same way, because he is one of them. Which electorally is a positive and a negative at the same time.


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 6, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Tbf they won't be able to monster him in the same way, because he is one of them. Which electorally is a positive and a negative at the same time.


Not in the same way sure, but they'll find a way. The taste for blood is not easily shaken off, once acquired.


----------



## belboid (Apr 6, 2020)

Idris2002 said:


> Not in the same way sure, but they'll find a way. The taste for blood is not easily shaken off, once acquired.


after _this_ tho, maybe they'll need a new target, depending how badly they fuck it up. He's not at all likely to be seen as a new Blair, but it would be wrong to think that _after the virus _everything will just return to politics as they were before.


----------



## treelover (Apr 6, 2020)

I really really hope there is not a revival of the sects, or new ones, especially amongst the young


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 7, 2020)

planetgeli said:


> StarmerChameleons



They come and go...


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 7, 2020)

SE25 said:


> wonder how long it'll take for the "socialists" who voted for Sir Haircut to regret it. Maybe when we see his first shadow cabinet



I'm constantly surprised that people don't find Starmer's "Michael Portillo fresh from the hairdresser" 'do offensive and indicative.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Apr 7, 2020)

ViolentPanda said:


> They come and go...





> If I listen to your lies, would you say
> I'm a man without conviction
> I'm a man who doesn't know
> How to sell a contradiction


----------



## treelover (Apr 7, 2020)

I think there is some jealously about Starmers full head of hair on here.


----------



## belboid (Apr 7, 2020)

Call that a full head of hair? PSG!


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Apr 7, 2020)

Hmmm.


----------



## JimW (Apr 7, 2020)

treelover said:


> I really really hope there is not a revival of the sects, or new ones, especially amongst the young


No sects please, we're...


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 8, 2020)

treelover said:


> I think there is some jealously about Starmers full head of hair on here.



What, of the Portillo-esque bouffant? Nah!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 8, 2020)

JimW said:


> No sects please, we're...



...a bunch of cults.


----------



## Mr Moose (Apr 8, 2020)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Hmmm.




That’s both shit and nasty. But then it’s the Standard.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 8, 2020)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Hmmm.




The sort of anti-Semitism that dog-fucking shitcunts like gnasherjew and Pollard WON'T go after, because they're dog-fucking shitcunts.


----------



## editor (Apr 12, 2020)

Fuck me, he's useless


----------



## Brainaddict (Apr 12, 2020)

Now that we have a haircut in charge it's good to see Labour returning to its long history of barely opposing the Tories. Good thing there's not much at stake at the moment.


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 12, 2020)

editor said:


> Fuck me, he's useless



At least Sgt. Wilson had some use, if only keeping an eye on Pike.


----------



## YouSir (Apr 12, 2020)

editor said:


> Fuck me, he's useless




2 weeks max before Streeting, Philips and their media contacts are burying him for being too close to Corbyn and the Left. Only way they can disown him now, even then unconvincingly.


----------



## treelover (Apr 12, 2020)

Mr Moose said:


> That’s both shit and nasty. But then it’s the Standard.



Osborne really is the pits, seems to be getting lots of media at the moment, alongside his own rag.


----------



## CNT36 (Apr 13, 2020)

editor said:


> Fuck me, he's useless



A return to effective opposition.


----------



## Marty1 (Apr 13, 2020)

Ted Striker said:


> When you compare our situation to the US currently, with Bernie (and his supporters) recognising the overwhelming evil in Trump, and declaring that they'll vote for Biden if they lose the Democrat Primary...You'd hope some of that would rub off on the UK left.



Seems to be a Biden backlash now Bernie is out of it (mostly Twitter) with Bernie supporters saying they will vote Green now and never Biden.

But, as has already been mentioned - KS does have a full syrup going for him.


----------



## Brainaddict (Apr 15, 2020)

This constant demand for an exit strategy is sheer performative opposition by the haircut and it really winds me up. Firstly because he's offering sod-all critique of what the government is doing right now. Secondly because do we really think the government isn't thinking about an exit strategy? Do we really think they aren't fucking desperate themselves to stop spending tens of billions of pounds on people's salaries? There are many things I doubt about this government but not the desire to spend less money. Thirdly, the reason the government aren't talking about an exit strategy is largely for the very good reasons that they can't put a timeline to it, and that they are watching other countries ahead of us to gather some evidence for what works because actually no-one knows yet.  

Fucking idiot.


----------



## ska invita (Apr 15, 2020)

Brainaddict said:


> This constant demand for an exit strategy is sheer performative opposition by the haircut and it really winds me up. Firstly because he's offering sod-all critique of what the government is doing right now. Secondly because do we really think the government isn't thinking about an exit strategy? Do we really think they aren't fucking desperate themselves to stop spending tens of billions of pounds on people's salaries? There are many things I doubt about this government but not the desire to spend less money. Thirdly, the reason the government aren't talking about an exit strategy is largely for the very good reasons that they can't put a timeline to it, and that they are watching other countries ahead of us to gather some evidence for what works because actually no-one knows yet.
> 
> Fucking idiot.


Agree. the line of attack should be firmly on PPE, Care Homes, and the lives of NHS staff, followed by economic fallout
Making public scientific advice etc wouldnt go amiss either
Exit strategy is relevant though in that they keep floating ideas (under 30s back to work! and shit) , so some clarity on all this would be useful. But its not a priority


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 15, 2020)

Couldn’t agree more with Brainaddict 

His letter is pathetic. I’m sure they think it’s a really clever trap they are laying but, and I can’t say this strongly enough: that care workers and patients, NHS workers, bus drivers, prison staff are dying in large numbers and the leader of the Labour Party doesn’t even mention it is a fucking disgrace.


----------



## Chilli.s (Apr 15, 2020)

Idris2002 said:


> So what happens when he loses the next election?



Panto season after that, Twanky is a possible role he'd be good at.


----------



## Brainaddict (Apr 15, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Couldn’t agree more with Brainaddict
> 
> His letter is pathetic. I’m sure they think it’s a really clever trap they are laying but, and I can’t say this strongly enough: that care workers and patients, NHS workers, bus drivers, prison staff are dying in large numbers and the leader of the Labour Party doesn’t even mention it is a fucking disgrace.


Yep. Say what you like about Corbyn as a leader, or his politics - which were never exactly in alignment with mine - but it would never have occurred to him _not_ to lead with that. It wouldn't even have been a discussion. 

Starmer fails his first test.


----------



## The39thStep (Apr 15, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Couldn’t agree more with Brainaddict
> 
> His letter is pathetic. I’m sure they think it’s a really clever trap they are laying but, and I can’t say this strongly enough: that care workers and patients, NHS workers, bus drivers, prison staff are dying in large numbers and the leader of the Labour Party doesn’t even mention it is a fucking disgrace.


He mentioned those groups of workers after seemingly being badgered by Piers effing Morgan. In another interview he rambled on about schools being closed widening inequalties . Its all very tame and confused.


----------



## redcogs (Apr 15, 2020)

Mrs 'cogs works in a care home. She is petrified of bringing covid home with her which may infect me, with dire consequences.  Therefore im living in the garden shed for the duration. There are many hundreds of thousands enduring far worse circumstances than mine, and many will be plunging into great depths of despair and wondering why they have not got a voice. Its not unreasonable to expect that the 'opposition' should reflect the fear and anger that is engendered by this awful situation (and the diabolical and ongoing mishandling of it by the Tory protectors of capital).  i was in tears of frustrated rage as i listened to Starmer on radio 4 this morning.  We are being politically abandoned as far as i can see.  Fuckers.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 15, 2020)

redcogs said:


> Mrs 'cogs works in a care home. She is petrified of bringing covid home with her which may infect me, with dire consequences.  Therefore im living in the garden shed for the duration. There are many hundreds of thousands enduring far worse circumstances than mine, and many will be plunging into great depths of despair and wondering why they have not got a voice. Its not unreasonable to expect that the 'opposition' should reflect the fear and anger that is engendered by this awful situation (and the diabolical and ongoing mishandling of it by the Tory protectors of capital).  i was in tears of frustrated rage as i listened to Starmer on radio 4 this morning.  We are being politically abandoned as far as i can see.  Fuckers.



You see it’s stuff like this that’s boiling my piss. All Starmer has to do it to demand: testing for all care workers, provision of proper PPE and some dignity and respect for the poor residents in these places currently dying in large numbers. How hard is it to say this? Why shouldn’t the job of opposition to scrutinise and hold the government to account on this?
My sympathies and solidarity to you and your Mrs mate. I know it’s of fuck all use to you but it’s more than Starmer seems capable of


----------



## killer b (Apr 15, 2020)

what's the actual strategy at work here? I read this from Stephen Bush in his mailout this morning, but it didn't really convince me. Would be interested in hearing some other theories that go beyond 'he's fucking useless'



> Good morning. Why does Keir Starmer keep banging on about exit strategy? The Labour leader's first demand of the government, after he formed his own shadow cabinet Covid-19 committee was that it publish a plan for how to exit the lockdown. Now he's written a letter to locum Prime Minister Dominic Raab asking again, that ministers publish a lockdown strategy so that it can be scrutinised and debated in public.
> 
> His intervention is being criticised from both sides. Some are asking why he's muddling the waters when the important thing is landing the stay home message. Others are wondering why he isn't focussing on the lack of protective equipment or the dire state of British care homes, or the United Kingdom's death rate, which looks at present to be on course to be one of the worst in Europe.
> 
> ...


----------



## Chilli.s (Apr 15, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> You see it’s stuff like this that’s boiling my piss. All Starmer has to do it to demand: testing for all care workers, provision of proper PPE and some dignity and respect for the poor residents in these places currently dying in large numbers. How hard is it to say this? Why shouldn’t the job of opposition to scrutinise and hold the government to account on this?
> My sympathies and solidarity to you and your Mrs mate. I know it’s of fuck all use to you but it’s more than Starmer seems capable of


100% agree.   Fuckin lazy self serving politicians eh, bet they're loving that 10 grand bonus though.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Apr 15, 2020)

I can't get my head around labour's stance. Ok the govt is surprisingly popular at moment, lots of people think we should be 'above politics' now and the new labour leadership are afraid of being seen as playing politics. Right. But that means you pick your battles instead of going on an all out offensive, and there is no clearer battle labour can win than the lack of protections available to frontline workers and how the tories have treated these workers in the past. 

On social media there is currently lots of unofficial stuff about the tories voting down payrise for nurses a few years ago, and it's out there because it's getting traction, being shared and commented on etc by people who aren't politicos or die hard labour types - but none of that is coming from labour as an org and therefore none of it is finding its way into press, telly coverage etc. Absolutely mental.

Labour focusing on exit strategy seems to be more about the new executive signalling to business that labour is pro business again, its that limited, and the lack of ambition, the beigeness of it - this is how these types do politics, the post blairite ideologically bereft moderate labour crowd, anybody who pays any attention to welsh labour in the one place they are still the govt will know this is how they do politics. Drab, dull, uninspiring, managerial, don't commit, don't upset, don't do politics. Against a new tory party that absolutely fucking does do politics. We will have a tory govt for fucking years from here, unless something radical changes then they'll outstrip the 18 years of thatcher and major.

Fuck labour.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 15, 2020)

killer b said:


> what's the actual strategy at work here?


Maybe I am miles off/too simplistic but it looks like trying your hardest to beg for re-admittance to the sensible club by presenting as little of a threat as possible. 


anyway here dies the myth of forsensic opposition, just as the unifier shit died yesterday


----------



## killer b (Apr 15, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> I can't get my head around labour's stance. Ok the govt is surprisingly popular at moment, lots of people think we should be 'above politics' now and the new labour leadership are afraid of being seen as playing politics. Right. But that means you pick your battles instead of going on an all out offensive, and there is no clearer battle labour can win than the lack of protections available to frontline workers and how the tories have treated these workers in the past.


the odd thing is that if you check out the Labour press team twitter, you'll see they are going in on PPE etc - just not during the interviews that people might be paying attention to. Weird.


----------



## cantsin (Apr 15, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> Seems to be a Biden backlash now Bernie is out of it (mostly Twitter) with Bernie supporters saying they will vote Green now and never Biden.
> 
> But, as has already been mentioned - KS does have a full syrup going for him.



DSA have explicitly refused to back Biden, as seemingly, have many, many others on Soc Media - and just as well, as it wld be the end of this particular chapter if they'd blindly followed Bernie himself down the machine Democrat cul de sac, whatever the circs


----------



## ska invita (Apr 15, 2020)

killer b said:


> Would be interested in hearing some other theories that go beyond 'he's fucking useless'


I think Exit Strategy is important in the here and now. The strategy is not just about saying In a months time we'll open schools. They're actively working on an app. They've talked about under 30s going back to work. The Tories have been making noises about this, and it does look as coherent as a plan come up with after a few pints. There should be a strategy now, and it will require working on immediately to be effective, and Tories claim to be doing that, and so this should be open to scrutiny if they have come up with one.  Its right for Labour to call for that and drill into the detail - or lack of.

What makes it shit to me is the sense of priorities and language the Starmer has come with so far since getting the job . People are unnecessarily dying and suffering now. The fault for that is clear. The practical steps to resolve it are clear. A party of the people should always have care for the people at the front of its actions and communications. And that hasn't happened. The opposite. Its been "now is not the time" on they key issues, and"now is the time" on the issue that can wait. I think it comes down to poor judgement, led by a lack of instinct about where the public is at, and where the need is greatest.

Might be reading too much into it but to me it betrays a disconnection from the populace. Cant help conclude that they're detached from the world of work, and from the hardships of work. If they weren't detached there'd be nothing to discuss here and the response would come naturally to them. Feels like a response to internal Westminster planning, rather than representing the public within Westminster.

Exit Strategy talk isn't wrong per se, but within the overall picture it's a big error.


----------



## treelover (Apr 15, 2020)

Its not just care home, many disabled and sick, including many elderly , many are in very vunerable/shielding group, all are vulnerable, have direct payments and employ their own carers, thats if they can get anyone, many are struggling with minimum care and most carers have no or little PPE.


----------



## treelover (Apr 15, 2020)

redcogs said:


> Mrs 'cogs works in a care home. She is petrified of bringing covid home with her which may infect me, with dire consequences.  Therefore im living in the garden shed for the duration. There are many hundreds of thousands enduring far worse circumstances than mine, and many will be plunging into great depths of despair and wondering why they have not got a voice. Its not unreasonable to expect that the 'opposition' should reflect the fear and anger that is engendered by this awful situation (and the diabolical and ongoing mishandling of it by the Tory protectors of capital).  i was in tears of frustrated rage as i listened to Starmer on radio 4 this morning.  We are being politically abandoned as far as i can see.  Fuckers.




media has now been covering these issues all last night, today, though not those on direct payments.


----------



## treelover (Apr 15, 2020)

DotCommunist said:


> Maybe I am miles off/too simplistic but it looks like trying your hardest to beg for re-admittance to the sensible club by presenting as little of a threat as possible.
> 
> 
> anyway here dies the myth of forsensic opposition, just as the unifier shit died yesterday



Thats largely what Milliband did, long silences, then the occassional big bang, energy tariffs, etc.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 15, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Might be reading too much into it but to me it betrays a disconnection from the populace. Cant help conclude that they're detached from the world of work, and from the hardships of work. If they weren't detached there'd be nothing to discuss here and the response would come naturally to them. Feels like a response to internal Westminster planning, rather than representing the public within Westminster.



I think the group think on urban has identified the two strategic considerations behind Starmer’s approach. There is the undoubted desire to demonstrate a return to ‘grown up’ ‘proper’ politics and signalling that Starmer is a very different leader to Corbyn. I also think the NS blog that Killer b has posted represents the internal thinking of those around Starmer. They want to tee up the longer term debate and seize control of the agenda about the economy and politics post covid-19. No problems with that. 

However, this isn’t where ordinary people are at the moment as you say. I remain bemused as to why Starmer can’t do both. Picking up the points that you and other have made _and _make an attempt to get in front of the narrative about the future.

It’s mystifying, and there is no doubt, it does suggest a lofty failure to understand what ordinary people are experiencing, are talking about and are worried about. Labour won’t get a hearing now and risks not getting one in the future if it’s silent on the immediate issues at hand


----------



## William of Walworth (Apr 15, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I think the *group think* on urban has identified the two strategic considerations behind Starmer’s approach.



I've always disagreed with suggestions that  there's any 'group think' on Urban!
'Monothought clique' is what that phrase implies! 

I agree (a lot) with your post above generally, but most Urban people reacting to what Sir Bland Starmer   has been doing so far, have been *very* critical -- and quite rightly so! 

But to me, the term 'group think' doesn't really suggest enough criticism .... and in fact on Urban, there's been plenty ....
(Just being pedantic here  ).


----------



## sleaterkinney (Apr 15, 2020)

Probably now isn’t the time or the place to score political points or whatever. I don’t get it myself.


----------



## The39thStep (Apr 15, 2020)

Looks like the Tories won't be requesting  an extension to the Brexit transition period. Now if ever there was a  hole and shovel situation for a Shadow Cabinet full of Remain/second referendum supporters to avoid stepping into this is it.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Apr 16, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Looks like the Tories won't be requesting  an extension to the Brexit transition period. Now if ever there was a  hole and shovel situation for a Shadow Cabinet full of Remain/second referendum supporters to avoid stepping into this is it.



Johnson, Cummings and others see will see the current situation and it's economic fallout, as an opportunity to go full steam ahead for a proper clean break Brexit in some sort of anything is possible post-Corona, brave new, free market world.

It's frightening nonsense but they won't be alone (internationally) in their dangerous idiocy.

Louis MacNeice


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 16, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Looks like the Tories won't be requesting  an extension to the Brexit transition period. Now if ever there was a  hole and shovel situation for a Shadow Cabinet full of Remain/second referendum supporters to avoid stepping into this is it.



The pandemic - along with the latest EU neo-liberal punishment beating, this time of Italy - has caused the scales to fall from the eyes of more sensible remainers. The etymology of the EU is forced into review and its nature and purpose revealed under the glare of Covid-19. It's primary function - to facilitate the supranational movement of capital is now more visible to more people. Its assumed purpose - peace, unity, cooperation, liberalism - revealed as a mirage in a time of crisis. In short the pandemic has forced national states to step back into their historic role and revealed the purposeless nature of the EU in the real world.

However, given his performance to date and given the composition of Waitrose's squad - as far as I know there are no leave supporters left in the shadow cabinet - there is every chance that they won't be able to resist picking the shovel up.


----------



## teqniq (Apr 17, 2020)

FFS


----------



## Proper Tidy (Apr 17, 2020)

He hated it because his campaign was based on the open lie of coming at it from the left with all the hopeful 'another world' stuff and fake momentum branding


----------



## two sheds (Apr 17, 2020)

Did he really say at the end "you're up against colleagues, and very good colleagues, and so you lie"??


----------



## Proper Tidy (Apr 17, 2020)

two sheds said:


> Did he really say at the end "you're up against colleagues, and very good colleagues, and so you lie"??



Who you like not so you lie I think.

But the fella who said 'is it because you don't like the membership' called it right


----------



## two sheds (Apr 17, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Who you like not so you lie I think.
> 
> But the fella who said 'is it because you don't like the membership' called it right



I don't think it was you know. Certainly sounded like "so" and I couldn't hear a "k".


----------



## two sheds (Apr 17, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Who you like not so you lie I think.
> 
> But the fella who said 'is it because you don't like the membership' called it right



Yes thinking about it, has to be 'so you like' unless it was a Freudian slip


----------



## fakeplasticgirl (Apr 17, 2020)

two sheds said:


> Did he really say at the end "you're up against colleagues, and very good colleagues, and so you lie"??


No he said “you’re up against colleagues and very good colleagues who you LIKE”


----------



## fakeplasticgirl (Apr 17, 2020)

two sheds said:


> I don't think it was you know. Certainly sounded like "so" and I couldn't hear a "k".


It was very clearly “WHO you LIKE”


----------



## two sheds (Apr 17, 2020)

Prefer my original


----------



## Proper Tidy (Apr 17, 2020)

Anyway whatever he said he comes across like a right posh tit


----------



## Proper Tidy (Apr 17, 2020)

I only said it to wind you up to he honest fakeplasticgirl although it is also true


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 17, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Anyway whatever he said he comes across like a right posh tit



He’s actually a bigger posh knobhead than I gave him credit for. And I really hadn’t given him much credit to start with


----------



## Proper Tidy (Apr 17, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> He’s actually a bigger posh knobhead than I gave him credit for. And I really hadn’t given him much credit to start with



He absolutely stinks of political class born to rule which is why they love him and why he is a fucking terrible choice


----------



## two sheds (Apr 17, 2020)

Nice hair though.


----------



## marshall (Apr 17, 2020)

Great hair, much better than Tidy's.


----------



## two sheds (Apr 17, 2020)

I don't know, I like the curly look.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Apr 17, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Who you like not so you lie I think.
> 
> But the fella who said 'is it because you don't like the membership' called it right


The membership certainly seemed to like him, all sectors of it.


----------



## two sheds (Apr 17, 2020)

This sector wasn't that keen. Mind you I hadn't seen that interview with RLB about carving up the NHS when she was a lawyer before the election.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Apr 17, 2020)

sleaterkinney said:


> The membership certainly seemed to like him, all sectors of it.



Weird hearing the same arguments the other side trotted our for corbyn being used for chin


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 17, 2020)

sleaterkinney said:


> The membership certainly seemed to like him, all sectors of it.



I’m not interested in what Labour Party members think. I’m interested in what working class people will make of the state of him. Pious, boring, shit politics, no idea.

Nothing on reengaging in serious community work, nothing on unions, nothing on constructing and supporting social movements. In short no sense that rebuilding civic society is a prerequisite for rebuilding Labourism. Instead, an inward turn to ‘serious parliamentary politics’.

So where are we? An ideologically driven but populist Tory Government facing off against a Labour Party that thinks it can beat them via parliamentary ruse and through a demonstration of their responsibility and seriousness. The 1980’s redux.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Apr 17, 2020)

Kier Starmer's favourite soup is cream of chicken


----------



## imposs1904 (Apr 17, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Kier Starmer's favourite soup is cream of chicken



Why do people insist on spelling his name wrong? Did Hardy die in vain?


----------



## Proper Tidy (Apr 17, 2020)

imposs1904 said:


> Why do people insist on spelling his name wrong? Did Hardy die in vain?



i before e isn't it


----------



## Proper Tidy (Apr 17, 2020)

Should have shoehorned a joke about except after c/unt there really


----------



## Serge Forward (Apr 17, 2020)

imposs1904 said:


> Why do people insist on spelling his name wrong? Did Hardy die in vain?


Oliver? Or the racist anti-Semite, Keir?


----------



## Proper Tidy (Apr 17, 2020)

Kier he's one in a carrillion


----------



## sleaterkinney (Apr 17, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I’m not interested in what Labour Party members think. I’m interested in what working class people will make of the state of him. Pious, boring, shit politics, no idea.
> 
> Nothing on reengaging in serious community work, nothing on unions, nothing on constructing and supporting social movements. In short no sense that rebuilding civic society is a prerequisite for rebuilding Labourism. Instead, an inward turn to ‘serious parliamentary politics’.
> 
> So where are we? An ideologically driven but populist Tory Government facing off against a Labour Party that thinks it can beat them via parliamentary ruse and through a demonstration of their responsibility and seriousness. The 1980’s redux.


He’s got the best part of five years to do this stuff, you haven’t given him five days. Rebuilding civic society now?.


----------



## YouSir (Apr 18, 2020)

sleaterkinney said:


> The membership certainly seemed to like him, all sectors of it.



A majority voted for him, wouldn't confuse that with liking him. Plenty on the Left settled for him and even on the Right he isn't their ideal fantasy figure, he was the closest thing going. Don't think he has much of an internal base tbh, his support mostly comes from those who see him as a tool of vengeance against the Left. Ultimately disposable.


----------



## YouSir (Apr 18, 2020)

sleaterkinney said:


> He’s got the best part of five years to do this stuff, you haven’t given him five days. Rebuilding civic society now?.



The Labour Party had the last few years to do just that when there was an enthused local membership eager to do it. It was the portion of the party now cheerleading Starmer who were at best completely indifferent to the effort. The idea that he's going to put any effort into extending the party into the community and day to day union organising is baseless.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Apr 18, 2020)

YouSir said:


> The Labour Party had the last few years to do just that when there was an enthused local membership eager to do it. It was the portion of the party now cheerleading Starmer who were at best completely indifferent to the effort. The idea that he's going to put any effort into extending the party into the community and day to day union organising is baseless.


I tell you what, between foiling Lexit, Corbyn, the Anti-semitism investigation, the 2017 election, the 2019 election and the remake of civil society,  the moderates have been busy!


----------



## YouSir (Apr 18, 2020)

sleaterkinney said:


> I tell you what, between foiling Lexit, Corbyn, the Anti-semitism investigation, the 2017 election, the 2019 election and the remake of civil society,  the moderates have been busy!



What a pointless post.


----------



## mauvais (Apr 18, 2020)

YouSir said:


> What a pointless post.


I don't think that's fair. They've unintentionally nailed it IMO.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Apr 19, 2020)

www.dontleaveorganise.org is new-ish (got something at second or third hand on tweeter)

hmm


----------



## belboid (Apr 19, 2020)

Puddy_Tat said:


> www.dontleaveorganise.org is new-ish (got something at second or third hand on tweeter)
> 
> hmm


Labour Left Alliance very narked at not being asked to be a co-sponsor, tho I suspect they wouldn’t be wild about the ‘broad left’ concept (as its generally more used by that old combo of Stalinists and the soft left)


----------



## Proper Tidy (Apr 19, 2020)

Puddy_Tat said:


> www.dontleaveorganise.org is new-ish (got something at second or third hand on tweeter)
> 
> hmm



Looks like it's a newish name for the LRC tbh


----------



## sunnysidedown (Apr 19, 2020)

_we need something new and different_

Don't we all.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 21, 2020)

In football when a new manager is appointed and the teams results continue to tank it is known as a ‘dead cat bounce’.

Here we are in the first 100 days and with the evidence of piss poor government management of the covid-19 pandemic piling up and Starmer is less popular than ‘not sure’. Let’s hope that when the public ‘get to know him’ they like him....


----------



## Brainaddict (Apr 21, 2020)

I despair a bit sometimes. Johnson was literally so careless and negligent over the virus that he caught it himself and became unable to lead the government -and that's quite besides all the people who would be alive if we'd locked down earlier - yet he still gets 46% approval? Like Trump it seems he could murder someone live on TV and his fans would still love him.


----------



## belboid (Apr 21, 2020)

These aren’t normal times tho, are they? I am thoroughly unimpressed by Starmers intervention, such as it has been, but I’m not really convinced anyone else would really have done any better. Still an air of all in it together bulldhit, nows the time to put politics aside blah blah.

same poll as said Boris was doing great and no one had heard of Starmer found that there was now, for the first time in a year, a majority who believed Britain was moving in the right direction. Maybe there are far more deep greens than I thought, but I doubt it.


----------



## oryx (Apr 21, 2020)

belboid said:


> but I’m not really convinced anyone else would really have done any better.



Saw Lisa Nandy on Question Time the other night and although I didn't vote for her (I voted for RLB) I thought she'd be far better than Starmer.

Andy Burnham and Sadiq Khan appear to be doing a better job in holding the government to account - far more vocal.

I thought he'd be better than this.


----------



## two sheds (Apr 21, 2020)

Where's Laura Pidcock when you need her 

Mind you the tabloids would have a field day with her.


----------



## agricola (Apr 21, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> In football when a new manager is appointed and the teams results continue to tank it is known as a ‘dead cat bounce’.
> 
> Here we are in the first 100 days and with the evidence of piss poor government management of the covid-19 pandemic piling up and Starmer is less popular than ‘not sure’. Let’s hope that when the public ‘get to know him’ they like him....




Yes but to use the football analogy again we are 0-6 down at half time, the manager got taken out of the ground in an ambulance after ten minutes and his replacements are too scared to bring on a sub so they are making a bloke with a broken leg play on.   That the crowd is still chanting the managers name should tell you everything you need to know about them.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Apr 21, 2020)

oryx said:


> Saw Lisa Nandy on Question Time the other night and although I didn't vote for her (I voted for RLB) I thought she'd be far better than Starmer.
> 
> Andy Burnham and Sadiq Khan appear to be doing a better job in holding the government to account - far more vocal.
> 
> I thought he'd be better than this.


Did you? On what grounds?


----------



## oryx (Apr 21, 2020)

S☼I said:


> Did you? On what grounds?


He seemed to be fairly competent as shadow Brexit secretary, working with the EU in a more constructive and collaborative way. Admittedly, the bar was set very low.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Apr 21, 2020)

imposs1904 said:


> Why do people insist on spelling his name wrong? Did Hardy die in vain?


Hardie


----------



## Steel Icarus (Apr 21, 2020)

oryx said:


> He seemed to be fairly competent as shadow Brexit secretary


This really is the faintest of faint praise. And what so many will gladly settle for


----------



## ska invita (Apr 21, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> In football when a new manager is appointed and the teams results continue to tank it is known as a ‘dead cat bounce’.


Not being pedantic here, but my understanding of a dead cat bounce is slightly different, so in the case of football, that the new manager gets a few good results (the bounce) but is doomed long term (the dead cat bit) and the early positive blip is nothing to get excited about. Even if you throw a dead cat on the ground theres a little bounce. Doesnt mean the cat isn't dead and about to bounce off into the uplands.

Havent seen any kind of a bounce for Starmer, dead cat or otherwise


----------



## Marty1 (Apr 21, 2020)

Anyone read this story?









						Labour Party faces financial RUIN as report sparks huge legal battle
					

THE Labour Party could be plunged into financial ruin with more than a dozen people preparing to take legal action against the opposition after they were named in a bombshell 860-page report.




					www.express.co.uk
				




Doesn’t look good for Labour.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Apr 21, 2020)

Had a rare lurk on twitter earlier and stumbled on a hornets nest of drippy liberal centrist #doorstep #labourfamily types who all seem to be of the opinion that the starmer strategy is to keep really quiet and wait for johnson to fuck up. This is a strategy they apparently rate.

Good to have some real opposition again isn't it #sensible #grownup


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 21, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> In football when a new manager is appointed and the teams results continue to tank it is known as a ‘dead cat bounce’.
> 
> Here we are in the first 100 days and with the evidence of piss poor government management of the covid-19 pandemic piling up and Starmer is less popular than ‘not sure’. Let’s hope that when the public ‘get to know him’ they like him....




But he's electable. Doesn't matter that nobody want to vote for him, because he's electable.


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Apr 21, 2020)

editor said:


> Fuck me, he's useless



Are you surprised?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 21, 2020)

imposs1904 said:


> Why do people insist on spelling his name wrong? Did Hardy die in vain?



If I knew which spelling was correct, I would still make a point of using the wrong one.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Apr 21, 2020)

Never realised how much he looks like Wallace


----------



## oryx (Apr 21, 2020)

S☼I said:


> This really is the faintest of faint praise. And what so many will gladly settle for


It is, and me saying I thought he'd be better than that is also faint praise!


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 21, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Havent seen any kind of a bounce for Starmer, dead cat or otherwise



Fair point.


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Apr 21, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> He hated it because his campaign was based on the open lie of coming at it from the left with all the hopeful 'another world' stuff and fake momentum branding


Couldn’t agree more, he’s a hundred carat fake.


----------



## imposs1904 (Apr 21, 2020)

S☼I said:


> Hardie



I know.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 21, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Had a rare lurk on twitter earlier and stumbled on a hornets nest of drippy liberal centrist #doorstep #labourfamily types who all seem to be of the opinion that the starmer strategy is to keep really quiet and wait for johnson to fuck up. This is a strategy they apparently rate.
> 
> Good to have some real opposition again isn't it #sensible #grownup



My (serious) conclusion about these people is that the sum of their political ambition is for their brand of politics to be treated seriously by other people like them.

It’s enough to be seen as ‘serious‘, to be ‘engaged’ and to be acknowledged by similar social and culturally possessive peer groups as offering a slightly different take on the managerial priorities for capitalism. It’s enough to have your team have a go at governing for 5 or 10 years.

Add in some virtue signalling and a paternal concern for the poor/minorities/LGBTQ/whatever (and the concern must be about what they can do for these groups rather than empowering them to do it for themselves) and that’s it.

corbyn (incoherently and often badly) offended these types of people. His leadership was damaging to the self esteem of this group. Hence the hatred. These people aren’t remotely serious. Their politics are merely an appendage to their dreary middle class existence


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Apr 21, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> My (serious) conclusion about these people is that the sum of their political ambition is for their brand of politics to be treated seriously by other people like them.



Of course that is how politics is and should be done...of course it is utterly useless.

Sorry I'm just grumpy because there seems to be no ambition or imagination even remotely in proportion to the tasks at hand. Tired and timid acquiescence seems to be the order of the day; it's pitiful.

Louis MacNeice


----------



## William of Walworth (Apr 23, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:
			
		

> In football when a new manager is appointed and the teams results continue to tank it is known as a ‘dead cat bounce’.





ska invita said:


> Not being pedantic here, but my understanding of a dead cat bounce is slightly different, so in the case of football, that the new manager gets a few good results (the bounce) but is doomed long term (the dead cat bit) and the early positive blip is nothing to get excited about. Even if you throw a dead cat on the ground theres a little bounce. Doesnt mean the at isn't dead and about to bounce off into the uplands.



Another version of "dead cat bounce" in football** is the win or couple of wins frequently achieved at he end of the season for a team that's just been officially relegated. 
**Not inconsistent with ska invita 's definition anyway
It really is a thing in football -- Oxford Utd have been relegated four times in my time, and have always had at least one "dead cat bounce" win afterwards! 
I've noticed it for other teams in other divisions as well.


----------



## fakeplasticgirl (Apr 23, 2020)

No opposition at all...


----------



## killer b (Apr 23, 2020)

fakeplasticgirl said:


> No opposition at all...
> 
> View attachment 208324


you need to work _forensic_ in there somehow to be a proper starmtrooper


----------



## strung out (Apr 23, 2020)

I'm getting really fed up of adjectives like 'sensible', 'grown up', 'serious' and 'adult' being used to describe him.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 23, 2020)

strung out said:


> I'm getting really fed up of adjectives like 'sensible', 'grown up', 'serious' and 'adult' being used to describe him.



Quite. None of those is even close to the correct spelling of 'bellend'.


----------



## killer b (Apr 23, 2020)

strung out said:


> I'm getting really fed up of adjectives like 'sensible', 'grown up', 'serious' and 'adult' being used to describe him.


best get used to it mate. after 5 years of a childish socialist tantrum, the sense of palpable relief there's finally an adult in the room is going to hold for some time...


----------



## JimW (Apr 23, 2020)

He looks like Blakey off On the Buses without his cap on in that pic.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 23, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> Anyone read this story?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's the Express. Don't believe the hype.


----------



## fakeplasticgirl (Apr 23, 2020)

killer b said:


> you need to work _forensic_ in there somehow to be a proper starmtrooper


And meticulous.


----------



## imposs1904 (Apr 23, 2020)

killer b said:


> you need to work _forensic_ in there somehow to be a proper starmtrooper


----------



## two sheds (Apr 23, 2020)

If that had been Corbyn the headline would have been: 

"WEAK WEAK WEAK, anti-semite misses chance to pin down government WEAKness yet AGAIN".


----------



## killer b (Apr 23, 2020)

TBF they all love a bit of forensic right now. I remember RLB telling some interviewer (Peston or something) about how people say she has a forensic eye for detail at the start of the leadership election. It does seem to have gone a bit wild with Starmer tho.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Apr 23, 2020)

Politics is only grown up if its sterile and unchallenging and just how things are done, those are the rules of entitled middle class cunts who naturally expect to be _listened to _


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 23, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Politics is only grown up if its sterile and unchallenging and just how things are done, those are the rules of entitled middle class cunts who naturally expect to be _listened to _



‘Serious’ is insider code for: well made analysis safely within the accepted parameters of debate as agreed by us, the narrating class.

‘Forensic’ is insider code for: a point that has struck a deep chord with many of us within the narrating class and which can spark debate amongst us as we decide the extent to which it informs ‘serious’ debate going forwards.

‘Grown up’: those accepting of the definitions above as the rules of debate


----------



## Lord Camomile (Apr 23, 2020)

Had a dream last night that Starmer was replaced as Labour leader by Ross Kemp.

So, in my dream world at least, his time is indeed up.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 23, 2020)

Lord Camomile said:


> Had a dream last night that Starmer was replaced as Labour leader by Ross Kemp.
> 
> So, in my dream world at least, his time is indeed up.


been looking at too many Cold War Steves?


----------



## Lord Camomile (Apr 23, 2020)

brogdale said:


> been looking at too many Cold War Steves?


A distinct possibility.

For those wondering, Kemp seemed enthusiastic.

Was too early to really tell how successful he'd end up being, but did get the sense that his time was up.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Apr 23, 2020)

Kemp will have voted starmer won't he


----------



## killer b (Apr 23, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Kemp will have voted starmer won't he


Sure I saw him campaigning with some hard left Labour characters during the election.


----------



## strung out (Apr 23, 2020)

killer b said:


> Sure I saw him campaigning with some hard left Labour characters during the election.


He was definitely seen mixing with extremists


----------



## Proper Tidy (Apr 23, 2020)

killer b said:


> Sure I saw him campaigning with some hard left Labour characters during the election.



I think politically he's a milibandite type, labour come what may


----------



## Proper Tidy (Apr 23, 2020)

strung out said:


> He was definitely seen mixing with extremists
> 
> View attachment 208461



Are they in a cruise ship casino there or something


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 26, 2020)

Just read this









						Keir Starmer has already quietly 'watered down' Corbyn's coronavirus response
					

Starting as he means to go on?




					www.thecanary.co
				




Above article is based on this one:









						Labour waters down proposed COVID-19 protections for renters. What does this mean? - Greater Manchester Housing Action
					

By Tom Lavin (@TomLavin13)   On Wednesday, whilst Keir Starmer received near-unanimous congratulations from the professional pundit class for his ‘grown-up’ and ‘forensic’ debut performance at Prime Ministers Questions, the Labour Party quietly confirmed that they had watered-down their position...




					www.gmhousingaction.com
				




The summary is that the policy under Corbyn was a six month rent suspension. This was in letter written to the Tories.

Starmer has changed this to rent deferral then the renters have to pay rent arrears back to landlords.

The Canary article has the Twitter posts of Sienna Rodgers.

Here she is clarifying the change of policy in Labour List:



> Asked about rent payments, Starmer’s spokesperson said: “Labour believe that alongside a halt to evictions, the government should enable the suspension of rental payments during this period where people are struggling to keep up, and legislate for a further, manageable period for renters to pay back deferred rent.” Jeremy Corbyn’s Labour had shifted from supporting rent deferrals to suspensions, but it appears that the party position is once again the former.











						Do you remember the first time? – LabourList
					

Keir Starmer took to the despatch box for his first Prime Minister’s Questions as Labour leader this week. The chamber was remarkably quiet with parliament…




					labourlist.org
				




A small but significant change in policy by the new leadership.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 27, 2020)

Rent deferral would be worse than doing nothing. Just plunges everyone into a pit of debt at exactly the time when work is goimg to be harder to find than ever. All so the carpetbaggers don't have to suffer.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Apr 27, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> Rent deferral would be worse than doing nothing. Just plunges everyone into a pit of debt at exactly the time when work is goimg to be harder to find than ever. All so the carpetbaggers don't have to suffer.


123 MPs are landlords.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 27, 2020)

Sasaferrato said:


> 123 MPs are landlords.


declared under the strict registration of interests; many more derive unearned income through rentier business interests


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 27, 2020)

Sasaferrato said:


> 123 MPs are landlords.



This fact is not lost on anyone here I'm sure. 

Starmer more concerned with not uspetting applecarts than the prospect of countless thousands being thrown into a black hole of unregulated debt and god knows how many of those ending up homeless as a result.


----------



## Mr Moose (Apr 27, 2020)

Lord Camomile said:


> Had a dream last night that Starmer was replaced as Labour leader by Ross Kemp.
> 
> So, in my dream world at least, his time is indeed up.



Presumably with a ‘get out of my party _you_ slag’?


----------



## Sasaferrato (Apr 27, 2020)

brogdale said:


> declared under the strict registration of interests; many more derive unearned income through rentier business interests


Yes. If the income is under £10k pa, they don't have to declare it.


----------



## steeplejack (Apr 27, 2020)

I have the feeling that Starmer could have sharted audibly as his first question to Raab last week, as a result of being on the beer for four days solid, and the press would have presented it both as innovative, showing gravitas and substance, and the sign of a long-yearned-for real opposition at last.

Fucks sake.


----------



## Marty1 (Apr 27, 2020)

Starmer doesn’t appear to have put a foot wrong so far.  Behaving very dignified throughout this pandemic.

Quite promising.


----------



## gosub (Apr 27, 2020)

Sasaferrato said:


> 123 MPs are landlords.



I would have said it was lot more than that what with the second home ruse...pleasantly surprized.


----------



## two sheds (Apr 27, 2020)

You prefer rent deferral over 6-month rent suspension then? Push renters into even deeper debt? Dignified and not a foot wrong compared with Corbyn eh.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 27, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> Starmer doesn’t appear to have put a foot wrong so far.  Behaving very dignified throughout this pandemic.
> 
> Quite promising.


I’m surprised you have adopted this line. On one hand his approach is in line with the ‘national mood’ and is consciously crafted to reflect that perceived mood in ex Labour seats. On the other, and given your own experiences, wouldn’t you have wanted a more forensic analysis of the performance of the government on matters such as PPE, testing and the behaviour of employers sending their employees and contractors out to work without either?

It’s possible to be dignified and to properly hold government to account basically


----------



## Marty1 (Apr 27, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I’m surprised you have adopted this line. On one hand his approach is in line with the ‘national mood’ and is consciously crafted to reflect that perceived mood in ex Labour seats. On the other, and given your own experiences, wouldn’t you have wanted a more forensic analysis of the performance of the government on matters such as PPE, testing and the behaviour of employers sending their employees and contractors out to work without either?
> 
> It’s possible to be dignified and to properly hold government to account basically



Yes, you’ve made me pause for thought there.

I think Starmer’s approach is a welcome departure from the prior reactionary manner but yes, maybe a peppering of the former is required now.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 27, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> Yes, you’ve made me pause for thought there.
> 
> I think Starmer’s approach is a welcome departure from the prior reactionary manner but yes, maybe a peppering of the former is required now.



I think the way to think about it is like this ‘is what this fella is saying speaking up for me and my interests?’ Media fawning isn’t going to pay your bills or keep you safe at work

I’d like to see Starmer hold the government to much more account about how key workers have been supported and protected at present


----------



## gosub (Apr 28, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I think the way to think about it is like this ‘is what this fella is saying speaking up for me and my interests?’ Media fawning isn’t going to pay your bills or keep you safe at work
> 
> I’d like to see Starmer hold the government to much more account about how key workers have been supported and protected at present



Reserving judgement til he actually has a PMQ's. I did read somebody last that he have asked the questions Corbyn did (can't remember which poster) when he'd used 3/5  to ask on exactly that top earlier in the day than COrbyn. I know everbody comes at things with preconceptions and there re some running sore within the Labour party but entrenching thinking this early probably not helpful.


----------



## fakeplasticgirl (Apr 28, 2020)

He had PMQs last week. Guardian readers were impressed. As, predictably, so was I.









						Raab is tried and found wanting by a masterful Starmer | John Crace
					

Starmer rehearses for the inevitable inquiry into coronavirus failings while Hancock increases his number of pillars, even if not tests




					www.google.co.uk


----------



## Proper Tidy (Apr 28, 2020)

Guardian readers a core constituency, this is labour's road back to power


----------



## JimW (Apr 28, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Guardian readers a core constituency, this is labour's road back to power


Come come, this might make them pause that little bit longer before voting Lib Dem.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 28, 2020)

Didn't see the big Knight's first PMQ's, I haven't watched a whole one since the coalition of cunts got in 8 years back now. Feels longer. I did see the wave of performative gushing praise from columnists. I also noticed Starmers leadership challenge had been part funded by bet 365 money, great stuff.


----------



## killer b (Apr 28, 2020)

I think that's the first time I've ever seen a John Crace piece posted with anything but outraged disbelief at the living he's stealing.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Apr 28, 2020)

DotCommunist said:


> Starmers leadership challenge had been part funded by bet 365 money, great stuff.



Christ. Another future.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Apr 28, 2020)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> View attachment 204903
> 
> The human windsock strikes again



Real 'Vicar of Bray' isn't he. From arch Corbynite to arch Starmerite in a blink.

I don't think he actually cares who is leader, as long as access to them remains.





__





						The Vicar of Bray - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## Proper Tidy (Apr 28, 2020)

I don't think it's that cynical, I think he's just wedded to labour. It's a disease really, labourism. Like alcaholism or compulsive wanking


----------



## Sasaferrato (Apr 28, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> I don't think it's that cynical, I think he's just wedded to labour. It's a disease really, labourism. Like alcaholism or compulsive wanking


----------



## agricola (Apr 28, 2020)

Sasaferrato said:


> FFS give the man a chance.
> 
> He has a realis hope of w
> 
> ...



another link to the Falklands!


----------



## Sasaferrato (Apr 28, 2020)

agricola said:


> another link to the Falklands!



I had started to reply, along the lines of 'He's been leader for two minutes, give him a chance'.

He does have a chance of winning the next election, Corbyn didn't. 

I's not healthy to have the same government for too long, so Labour need to win the next one.

I think if Labour do lose the next one, then the left position is going to be usurped by the Greens, whose overall vote is increasing. Maybe. 

You never can tell in politics.


----------



## killer b (Apr 28, 2020)

The Greens aren't yet at the same level they were after their best ever showing in 2015, at the dizzy heights of 3.8%. Their _overall vote increased_ only because they were crushed by Labour in 2017.


----------



## redsquirrel (Apr 28, 2020)

Sasaferrato said:


> I think if Labour do lose the next one, then the left position is going to be usurped by the Greens, whose overall vote is increasing. Maybe.


You've come out with some right old toss over the years but this may be near the top.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Apr 29, 2020)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Johnson, Cummings and others see will see the current situation and it's economic fallout, as an opportunity to go full steam ahead for a proper clean break Brexit in some sort of anything is possible post-Corona, brave new, free market world.
> 
> It's frightening nonsense but they won't be alone (internationally) in their dangerous idiocy.
> 
> Louis MacNeice



And so it begins. FRom the horse's mouth: loosening lockdown, moving the goal posts. 

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## mauvais (Apr 29, 2020)

killer b said:


> best get used to it mate. after 5 years of a childish socialist tantrum, the sense of palpable relief there's finally an adult in the room is going to hold for some time...


I'd never really thought about the whole 'adults' thing until it came up in something (probably Mandos) the other day. Says a lot really doesn't it, the clamouring for an adult in the room, I guess the idea that Sensible Centrist Daddy needs to come home quick and fix things for the children, tell us it's going to be alright. Weird.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Apr 29, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> You've come out with some right old toss over the years but this may be near the top.


As have you of course.  

Where do you see Labour if they do lose the next election?


----------



## redsquirrel (Apr 29, 2020)

In opposition - they are not going to be replaced by a party that has 1 MP, 2 Lords, 382 councillors etc 
FFS just look at the current make-up of the HoC despite all the howls about 2019 being the worst result since 1935 they are still easily the 2nd largest grouping, they still have a whole shed load of safe seats, they still have 6000+ councillors, they still have the support of trade unions and they have a membership of over half a million. There is no comparison between the LP and a minor party like the Greens. 

Neither the LP nor the Conservative Party are going anywhere.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 29, 2020)

As the above exchange demonstrates it’s always best, Sasaferrato,  not to ask the question until you know the answer.

A cursory glance at the result of every GE since 1931 could have told you the answer was a) in government or b) (more likely) the official opposition


----------



## steveseagull (Apr 29, 2020)

well that was an unforgettable PMQs. When is Starmer going to start acting like an opposition leader instead of a flustered regional manager?

Open goals missed:

The highest death count in Europe due to Raab and Johnson's incompetence

21% of global deaths

and the massive elephant in the room

The Panorama documentary. 

This bloke might have made a decent DPP but a leader of the opposition? Good grief.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 29, 2020)

steveseagull said:


> This bloke might have made a decent DPP but a leader of the opposition? Good grief.



He didn't make a decent DPP either.


----------



## steveseagull (Apr 29, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> He didn't make a decent DPP either.



Ah that could explain a lot


----------



## The39thStep (Apr 29, 2020)

Starmers perfomance reminded me of the time Geoffrey Howes 'attack' on Dennis Healey was described as like 'being savaged by a dead sheep'


----------



## mauvais (Apr 29, 2020)

> Starmer says country risks 'falling behind' if government does not publish exit plan


This just makes me think of the 'mineshaft gap' from Dr. Strangelove, except without the... charisma.


----------



## Brainaddict (Apr 29, 2020)

steveseagull said:


> well that was an unforgettable PMQs. When is Starmer going to start acting like an opposition leader instead of a flustered regional manager?
> 
> Open goals missed:
> 
> ...


Didn't you get the memo? Real Opposition (TM) means not opposing too much.


----------



## maomao (Apr 29, 2020)

I saw about five minutes of it. It was embarrassingly shit. This is the golden boy? Ffs.


----------



## cantsin (Apr 29, 2020)

fakeplasticgirl said:


> He had PMQs last week. Guardian readers were impressed. As, predictably, so was I.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



John Crace  was a v dull sketch writer' who was  repurposed into a bog standard frothing anti Corbynite / political correspondent ( due to Grauns ever deepening financial issues no doubt ) ....he / they have a lot invested in Starmer 'succeeding' , but it's week 2 pf PMQ's, and even John ' radio ' Rentoul's realising that bleating ' forensic ' everytime Sir Keir wafts up to the dispatch box cld wear thin ( zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz)


----------



## The39thStep (Apr 29, 2020)




----------



## Humberto (Apr 29, 2020)

Comes to something when a 99 year-old man feels he has to bail out the NHS. Everyone celebrating it like it's something to be happy about. Reckon this veteran has trolled them all.


----------



## treelover (Apr 29, 2020)

steveseagull said:


> well that was an unforgettable PMQs. When is Starmer going to start acting like an opposition leader instead of a flustered regional manager?
> 
> Open goals missed:
> 
> ...



He didn't mention it? ffs..


----------



## treelover (Apr 29, 2020)

mauvais said:


> This just makes me think of the 'mineshaft gap' from Dr. Strangelove, except without the... charisma.



falling behind what?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 29, 2020)

mauvais said:


> This just makes me think of the 'mineshaft gap' from Dr. Strangelove, except without the... charisma.



The phrase 'mineshaft gap' has popped into my head several times in recent weeks.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 29, 2020)

tbh when the leader of the opposition and the man standing in for the pm both wear the same suit there really isn't any difference between the parties.


----------



## The39thStep (Apr 29, 2020)

To quote another quote 'a shiver looking for a spine to go down'


----------



## sleaterkinney (Apr 29, 2020)

steveseagull said:


> well that was an unforgettable PMQs. When is Starmer going to start acting like an opposition leader instead of a flustered regional manager?
> 
> Open goals missed:
> 
> ...


He did mention the death count vs Europe directly and PPE.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Apr 29, 2020)

What does it say about starmer and the grown up sensible approach of saying stuff in a grown up sensible way in a grown up sensible tone that nobody realises he's said it


----------



## Humberto (Apr 29, 2020)

I don't think anyone is impressed or excited by this leadership, so far. It's become a pale nothingness; back to the days where you couldn't stick a Rizla paper between them and 'they're all the same'. It's the politics of getting by, do your time, don't kick up a fuss. In short, I don't see this guy winning the next general election. What if though, he changed tack? Took the 'can't attack me if I'm mild and reasonable' tack and added some basic, popular socialist messages. What if he spoke to the people on the level and made a few basic arguments as to the rationality of socialist policies, but with the asset that he is seen as the 'sensible one'?


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Apr 29, 2020)

Humberto said:


> What if he spoke to the people on the level


----------



## Humberto (Apr 29, 2020)

Puddy_Tat said:


>



Too 'out there'?


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Apr 29, 2020)

Humberto said:


> Too 'out there'?



definitely not centrist dad enough


----------



## sleaterkinney (Apr 30, 2020)

It could be that going full on raging opposition would go down badly at a time like this. I wonder where all this criticism was for the past few years, Corbyn would have read out a letter from his constituent about a missing cat.


----------



## Humberto (Apr 30, 2020)

I did criticise Corbyn btw, but you might be right, there's a long way to go.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Apr 30, 2020)

Humberto said:


> I don't think anyone is impressed or excited by this leadership, so far. It's become a pale nothingness; back to the days where you couldn't stick a Rizla paper between them and 'they're all the same'. It's the politics of getting by, do your time, don't kick up a fuss. In short, I don't see this guy winning the next general election. What if though, he changed tack? Took the 'can't attack me if I'm mild and reasonable' tack and added some basic, popular socialist messages. What if he spoke to the people on the level and made a few basic arguments as to the rationality of socialist policies, but with the asset that he is seen as the 'sensible one'?


That would necessitate Starmer having some socialist principles, let alone policies.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Apr 30, 2020)

sleaterkinney said:


> It could be that going full on raging opposition would go down badly at a time like this. I wonder where all this criticism was for the past few years, Corbyn would have read out a letter from his constituent about a missing cat.


Yeah, what we need is for everyone to fall in line. Jesus


----------



## Humberto (Apr 30, 2020)

S☼I said:


> That would necessitate Starmer having some socialist principles, let alone policies.



Don't really know what (if any) principles he does have. Which isn't good.


----------



## killer b (Apr 30, 2020)

sleaterkinney said:


> I wonder where all this criticism was for the past few years, Corbyn would have read out a letter from his constituent about a missing cat.


You were doing it. Now we've changed ends and it's your turn for the brittle defensiveness. Have fun!


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 30, 2020)

sleaterkinney said:


> It could be that going full on raging opposition would go down badly at a time like this. I wonder where all this criticism was for the past few years, Corbyn would have read out a letter from his constituent about a missing cat.



Who is calling for ‘full on raging opposition’? I agree that the people Labour wants to connect with wouldn’t welcome blood curdling posturing but this is a strawman being erected to defend Starmer imho


----------



## killer b (Apr 30, 2020)

TBF though, I don't think there was many people on here claiming Corbo was a great performer at PMQs - mostly we've been saying it's more or less irrelevant (which it remains with Starmer at the helm)


----------



## Proper Tidy (Apr 30, 2020)

To oppose, you must not oppose. Sun Tzu.


----------



## killer b (Apr 30, 2020)

True leadership is fascist appeasement.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Apr 30, 2020)

Honestly though, it really is a strategy of being dull enough while maintaining the navy suit white shirt impression of how politics is done by the people who do politics then wait for the electorate to get fed up of the incumbents and become the govt by default. And it will probably work, sooner or later, because there are only two parties that can form the govt. At which point you will have been elected on a ticket of pretty much the same in a navy suit and white shirt, and therefore incapable of effecting any change beyond the narrow margins of the politically acceptable as determined by the sensible people in navy suits and white shirts, not that there is any appetite for change because you are the sensible people in navy suits and white shirts.

Difficult to understand why some people are enthused by this as a political project but there we go, people are into all sorts of weird shit that I don't see the attraction of I suppose, like model railways or scat


----------



## The39thStep (Apr 30, 2020)

sleaterkinney said:


> It could be that going full on raging opposition would go down badly at a time like this. I wonder where all this criticism was for the past few years, Corbyn would have read out a letter from his constituent about a missing cat.


I just spent a good ten minutes trying to imagine what a 'full on raging' Starmer would look like,.The only thing I could come up with was a slighlty affronted  Sgt Wilson from Dads army or perhaps Trevor Howard  in Brief Encounter deciding to go on the lash and say what he really thought about Celia Johnson getting on the train. 
Incidentally Corbyns ' I have a letter from a constituent'  was one of the few things that I liked about him, an excellent prop.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Apr 30, 2020)

Starmer and Raab both carry the vibe of _new-to-supply-teaching given a bottom set Year 9 Maths class on the first day._


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 30, 2020)

I'd rate it the Full Starmer if it took the form of Michael Douglas losing it in Falling Down.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Apr 30, 2020)

DotCommunist said:


> I'd rate it the Full Starmer if it took the form of Michael Douglas losing it in Falling Down.


Never been able to decide if I really like or dislike that film. Perhaps that was the point


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 30, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> What does it say about starmer and the grown up sensible approach of saying stuff in a grown up sensible way in a grown up sensible tone that nobody realises he's said it



That's what he's there for. To occupy space, to stand in the right spot in the right clothes so that nobody can say we don't have democratic opposition in this country. Actually saying or doing things is not required.


----------



## strung out (Apr 30, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> I just spent a good ten minutes trying to imagine what a 'full on raging' Starmer would look like


Check Pornhub


----------



## campanula (Apr 30, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> That's what he's there for. To occupy space, to stand in the right spot in the right clothes so that nobody can say we don't have democratic opposition in this country. Actually saying or doing things is not required.


I dunno, Spooky. To be honest, I am kinda relieved.  I can get back into politics with a small p, pestering the local council, tenant's stuff on my estate, benefit struggles, even piddly things like using green spaces...with hippyish things involving playgrounds and community gardens. The recent pandemic has clarified a lot of things for me - primarily, we can only count on ourselves, our neighbourhood, friends, families, community... there is literally no sense of engagement with the Westminster cohort apart from a largely meaningless vote at the ballot box. I allowed myself to get pulled into Labour party stuff ...even after being thrown out twice. I feel I spent 3 years in a foaming rage at politician's venal, base behaviour (seeing an imaginary chink in a mildly socialist/democratic policy...because whatever complaints could be laid at Corbyn's door, I felt his freakish sincerity and attempted transparency was seductively...different to spark just a smidgeon of faith. Irrational, but desperate.   Now, with the utterly irrelevant Starmer, I can safely ignore the LP...in fact the whole electoral shitshow and get back on the local activist, and infinitely more subversive, optimistic and immediate wagon.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 30, 2020)

So, here is further evidence of the Starmer Plan to reconnect with the ‘red wall’. Grown up politics, refusal to posture over the corona pandemic and now this:









						Labour should not shy away from patriotism, says Starmer
					

‘I’m really proud of my country,’ party leader says during virtual meeting with Bury residents




					www.theguardian.com
				




Starmer must have made the comments about Brexit through gritted teeth, which I must admit pleases me greatly....


----------



## Proper Tidy (Apr 30, 2020)

Really is incredible how utterly shallow their view of what ordinary people will respond to isn't it. Cunts.


----------



## two sheds (Apr 30, 2020)

Looks shit scared of the Daily Mail et al to me. Or that's what he's actually like


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 30, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Really is incredible how utterly shallow their view of what ordinary people will respond to isn't it. Cunts.



What genuinely mystifying is that this approach has been tried before, latterly by Ed Miliband. The result is always the same


----------



## two sheds (Apr 30, 2020)

He's learned his lesson though, you'll not find him eating a bacon butty in public.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Apr 30, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> What genuinely mystifying is that this approach has been tried before, latterly by Ed Miliband. The result is always the same



Taking any other route would mean actually examining and accepting why labour is losing its natural constituency, how far back that goes, and what lies beneath the political alienation of literally fucking millions of people


----------



## Smokeandsteam (May 1, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Taking any other route would mean actually examining and accepting why labour is losing its natural constituency, how far back that goes, and what lies beneath the political alienation of literally fucking millions of people



That’s massively unfair when you note searing analysis like this from the public intellectuals seeking to embed themselves in ‘Team Waitrose’:

My personal highlight is this: “The implicit assumption of the Lexiteers who steered Corbynism towards its 2019 election catastrophe was that “economics drowns out everything else”.





__





						Why the UK’s cultural divide is forcing Labour to be cautious over the Tories and coronavirus
					

The same voters who were hostile to Labour over Brexit are hostile to the party “playing politics” with the Covid-19 crisis.




					www.newstatesman.com


----------



## Proper Tidy (May 1, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> That’s massively unfair when you note searing analysis like this from the public intellectuals seeking to embed themselves in ‘Team Waitrose’:
> 
> My personal highlight is this: “The implicit assumption of the Lexiteers who steered Corbynism towards its 2019 election catastrophe was that “economics drowns out everything else”.
> 
> ...



I gave up reading just after this paragraph. I've long thought mason a dick and prone to some sort of political mania, that thing he did on telly was genuinely bizarre, but he's not an idiot so there is no way this stuff is a genuine misreading. It's knowing bullshit.


----------



## redsquirrel (May 1, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> I gave up reading just after this paragraph. I've long thought mason a dick and prone to some sort of political mania, that thing he did on telly was genuinely bizarre, but he's not an idiot so there is no way this stuff is a genuine misreading. It's knowing bullshit.


Hmmm, I'm split between whether this his trajectory is just selling bullshit while keeping himself in the centre of things or a fact that he has genuinely drunk the kool-aid and has to justify his political views to himself. 
What is clear is that in his rejection of class he's basically following in the footsteps of previous "post-Marxists" 


> But in the longer term there are only three choices for Labour – and they were presented clearly in the leadership election: stick with the same mixture of left economics and socially-liberal values and hope the electorate changes; ditch the social liberalism for the Blue Labour communitarian agenda and hope the socially liberal mass base of Labour doesn’t notice; or reconstruct the party as an alliance which respects and contains the cultural differences while preserving the essence of its left-wing programme.


----------



## Proper Tidy (May 1, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> Hmmm, I'm split between whether this his trajectory is just selling bullshit while keeping himself in the centre of things or a fact that he has genuinely drunk the kool-aid and has to justify his political views to himself.
> What is clear is that in his rejection of class he's basically following in the footsteps of previous "post-Marxists"



Yeah my view was he actually bought this crap, had contorted himself to fit his decisions and his remainerism. But whatever else he is, he is not a political naif, so to believe that 'lexiteers caused the 2019 election disaster' is impossible, you can't square that with anything rational, it went to polls on a remain ticket and got its arse kicked in leave seats.

I know why he feels he has to say it, because he fetishises the EU, because he's not going to concede past errors, and because he's backed the anti-left liberal architect of labour's shit EU stance, and attack is the best form of defence so he wants to create a climate on the remain leaning labour left which a) conflates being leave or ambivalent/antiremain with being one of the labour tankies and Gallowayites and b) as the enemy within that cost the corbyn project its corbyn (and therefore critical support of Starmer _with no illusions_ is the clever, necessary, _marxist_ response) but he can't actually sincerely believe it, it's not possible.

He's a dickhead but he's not one of these twitter liberals or guardian hacks, it has to be cynical as fuck


----------



## Proper Tidy (May 1, 2020)

(agree on his sort of weird euro communism where the w/c is replaced by the types of people that he knows and doesn't feel uncomfortable around though)


----------



## steveseagull (May 1, 2020)

*

INCOMING*


Here is that 20pt bounce that anyone but Coybyn would have got us (according to the centrists).

Oh wait....   Starmer must go.


----------



## steveseagull (May 1, 2020)

Sir Keir has appointed his 'independent panel' to look into the leaked Labour report.

Lord Alf Dubs was put forward but rejected by Starmer so there is no Jewish representation on there.

Martin Forde QC (Chair)
Baroness Debbie Wilcox
Lord Larry Whitty
Baroness Ruth Liste

So it looks like our BAME MPs and Jewish members are going to be thrown under the bus in the inevitable right wing white wash.

Oh and...


----------



## butchersapron (May 1, 2020)

So the Oxbridge boy only appointed 75% Oxbridge people to the team. Steadily we progress.


----------



## fakeplasticgirl (May 1, 2020)

treelover said:


> He didn't mention it? ffs..


He mentioned both the death rate and PPE


----------



## steveseagull (May 1, 2020)

fakeplasticgirl said:


> He mentioned both the death rate and PPE




That appears to be the problem, I do not recall him mentioning it and many others did not. It must have been heavily wrapped in the 'forensic' stuff we keep getting told about.


----------



## belboid (May 1, 2020)

steveseagull said:


> That appears to be the problem, I do not recall him mentioning it and many others did not. It must have been heavily wrapped in the 'forensic' stuff we keep getting told about.


I didnt actually notice him saying anything, but his talk of the death rate was in every report of what he said. eg


----------



## steveseagull (May 1, 2020)

Big Board of Deputies storm coming up for Keir Starmer.

The Board of Deputies (or one of them) have given Keir Starmer until Monday to suspend Diane Abbott and Bell Ribeiro Addy for being part of a 500 strong open Zoom meeting which contained two Jewish people who were suspended from the party. This Deputy says they will 'cease contact'.

They really do have an issue with Labour's BAME MPs. Quite a significant pattern forming.

So Starmer has a dilemma. Weakly back down to them and suspend the UK's first BAME MP and a new up and coming one or incur the wrath of the BoDs.


----------



## killer b (May 1, 2020)

steveseagull said:


> This Deputy says they will 'cease contact'


he's saying they _should, _which is a very different thing.


----------



## Proper Tidy (May 1, 2020)

Am genuinely lolling that nobody ever knows when starmer has said something, politics aside corbyn was hardly the life and soul and they've replaced him with a human wetwipe


----------



## fakeplasticgirl (May 1, 2020)

steveseagull said:


> Big Board of Deputies storm coming up for Keir Starmer.
> 
> The Board of Deputies (or one of them) have given Keir Starmer until Monday to suspend Diane Abbott and Bell Ribeiro Addy for being part of a 500 strong open Zoom meeting which contained two Jewish people who were suspended from the party. This Deputy says they will 'cease contact'.
> 
> ...



It was pretty bad though. Bell Ribeiro addy is my MP and I’ve written to her about this. Tony Greenstein and Jackie Walker have said some very nasty things - why was greenstein apparently selected to ask a question at this event?! Why were they even at the meeting if they’ve been suspended?


----------



## killer b (May 1, 2020)

This turn of events is such a predictable consequence of such a meeting that you can only assume it was done on purpose to bring about this exact confrontation.


----------



## killer b (May 1, 2020)

anyway, fuck them all. bunch of cunts.


----------



## belboid (May 1, 2020)

fakeplasticgirl said:


> It was pretty bad though. Bell Ribeiro addy is my MP and I’ve written to her about this. Tony Greenstein and Jackie Walker have said some very nasty things - why was greenstein apparently selected to ask a question at this event?! Why were they even at the meeting if they’ve been suspended?


It was a fairly open meeting that neither had anything to do with organising. In fact I think they both slagged the organisers off for not specifically inviting people like them (expellees) to join DLF. no mps could be held responsible for them attending than they could if it were a physical meeting.  It’s a pathetic attempt to stir shit up meaning nothing.


----------



## brogdale (May 1, 2020)

Meanwhile...


----------



## killer b (May 1, 2020)

It's bullshit, they're all wankers. We deserve the tories for ever.


----------



## Proper Tidy (May 1, 2020)

It's just such a boring transparent corporate style line to take, nobody will buy it. Like an accountancy firm sticking 'stay at home' over their logo, meaningless empty sales patter


----------



## fakeplasticgirl (May 1, 2020)

belboid said:


> It was a fairly open meeting that neither had anything to do with organising. In fact I think they both slagged the organisers off for not specifically inviting people like them (expellees) to join DLF. no mps could be held responsible for them attending than they could if it were a physical meeting.  It’s a pathetic attempt to stir shit up meaning nothing.


If the reports are true that Walker, Greenstein etc were picked to ask questions during the debate then yes, the MPs should have left at that point.

If there were Labour members whose anti black racism was so openly bad that they were expelled, I would expect people to be horrified to see MPs on a Zoom call with them about Labour's future. Those same standards should apply here.


----------



## fakeplasticgirl (May 1, 2020)

Not that I think they should be expelled. But it’s not ok.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (May 1, 2020)

killer b said:


> It's bullshit, they're all wankers. We deserve the tories for ever.



Has Jeff Robinson hacked your account?


----------



## killer b (May 1, 2020)

Not at all - jeff blames the people of great britain. I'm blaming the Labour Party (all wings)


----------



## steveseagull (May 2, 2020)

Here it the current BoD's hit list

Dawn Butler
Zarah Sultana
Bell Ribeiro-Addy
Diane Abbot.  

Apart from them all being socialists, what else do they have in common?


----------



## killer b (May 2, 2020)

Are they all dickheads who'd organise politically - and publicly - with Greenstein and Walker, even after the last few years have demonstrated over and over and over again what happens if you do that?


----------



## steveseagull (May 2, 2020)

I am thinking that come Monday, the Board of Deputies are going to realise how much they have been played by the British media who won't give too much of a crap about antisemitism (or any other racism) now Corbyn has gone and a compliant middle manager has been put in place.


----------



## steveseagull (May 2, 2020)

killer b said:


> Are they all dickheads who'd organise politically - and publicly - with Greenstein and Walker, even after the last few years have demonstrated over and over and over again what happens if you do that?



Nope but good try


----------



## teqniq (May 2, 2020)

It would appear that we have no credible opposition. What next?









						Keir Starmer labelled 'spineless' after bizarrely praising the government’s 'amazing' coronavirus response
					

Labour leader Keir Starmer hasn’t exactly made a huge splash in his new role.




					www.indy100.com


----------



## Proper Tidy (May 2, 2020)

steveseagull said:


> I am thinking that come Monday, the Board of Deputies are going to realise how much they have been played by the British media who won't give too much of a crap about antisemitism (or any other racism) now Corbyn has gone and a compliant middle manager has been put in place.



While I don't disagree that they never really gave a shit, don't expect the focus to end just cos labour now has liberal leadership. The fear of labour left - still miles stronger than pre 15 - will keep the focus on left antisemitism for a good while yet. Which tbf is helped by the actual left antisemitism and that


----------



## redsquirrel (May 2, 2020)

When the fucking Indie is saying that you are too weak then it's certain you've fluffed it


----------



## Beermoth (May 2, 2020)

teqniq said:


> It would appear that we have no credible opposition. What next?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Vote Tory to keep the Tories out.


----------



## teqniq (May 2, 2020)

Sad but true.


----------



## belboid (May 2, 2020)

killer b said:


> Are they all dickheads who'd organise politically - and publicly - with Greenstein and Walker, even after the last few years have demonstrated over and over and over again what happens if you do that?


ffs.  You've made a post which the three idiots like.  should give you pause for thought


----------



## killer b (May 2, 2020)

Absolutely not, I'm right. They're dickheads. So are the board of deputies, and starmer's crew. Absolute dickheads in every conceivable direction.


----------



## belboid (May 2, 2020)

The BoD are racists attacking black women, makes them a bit more than dickheads.


----------



## killer b (May 2, 2020)

It's a lot more complicated than 'the BoD hates black women', but I honestly don't care anymore. Burn the lot of them to the ground.


----------



## SpookyFrank (May 2, 2020)

steveseagull said:


> I am thinking that come Monday, the Board of Deputies are going to realise how much they have been played by the British media who won't give too much of a crap about antisemitism (or any other racism) now Corbyn has gone and a compliant middle manager has been put in place.



You're assuming their concern was genuine in the first place, and they weren't just playing politics same as everyone else.


----------



## Proper Tidy (May 2, 2020)

belboid said:


> ffs.  You've made a post which the three idiots like.  should give you pause for thought



Lol. This reminds me actually, you never explained how it was posh fellas from the SE what did brexit


----------



## sleaterkinney (May 2, 2020)

Maybe Diane Abbott wanted to see how bad the anti-semitism problem was, after it was hidden from the previous leadership by the moderates?


----------



## belboid (May 2, 2020)

killer b said:


> It's a lot more complicated than 'the BoD hates black women', but I honestly don't care anymore. Burn the lot of them to the ground.


apartheid supporters going after black folk....   naah, nothing worth bothering about there


----------



## belboid (May 2, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Lol. This reminds me actually, you never explained how it was posh fellas from the SE what did brexit


i looked at who voted where, and saw where the majority of leave votes came from.  Even you could do that.


----------



## Proper Tidy (May 2, 2020)

belboid said:


> i looked at who voted where, and saw where the majority of leave votes came from.  Even you could do that.



Amazing


----------



## SpookyFrank (May 2, 2020)

belboid said:


> i looked at who voted where, and saw where the majority of leave votes came from.  Even you could do that.



You're aware there are more people in some places than in others I take it?


----------



## belboid (May 2, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> You're aware there are more people in some places than in others I take it?


Yes.  Posher areas had a higher turnout, hence contributed more to the leave vote. It's pretty basic stuff.


----------



## Proper Tidy (May 2, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> You're aware there are more people in some places than in others I take it?



Even then it doesn't make sense, it's completely made up


----------



## SpookyFrank (May 2, 2020)

belboid said:


> Yes.  Posher areas had a higher turnout, hence contributed more to the leave vote. It's pretty basic stuff.



You realise turnout figures apply to all voters, not just those who voted one way?


----------



## belboid (May 2, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Even then it doesn't make sense, it's completely made up


aah, anything you disagree with must be made up. What a brilliant mind.








						Brexit was not the voice of the working class nor of the uneducated – it was of the squeezed middle
					

Lorenza Antonucci, Laszlo Horvath, and André Krouwel challenge the popular view of Leave voters as those left behind educationally and financially. They explain why it is individuals from an interm…




					blogs.lse.ac.uk
				





			http://natcen.ac.uk/media/1319222/natcen_brexplanations-report-final-web2.pdf
		



You're talking shit.


----------



## belboid (May 2, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> You realise turnout figures apply to all voters, not just those who voted one way?


Yes dear. But the point is, that higher turnout means that even in some areas where the middle-classes voted remain, the leave vote was still higher than in many of the seats where w-c voters voted leave. The idea that the leave vote was simply a w-c revolt is rubbish, propounded by fools.


----------



## Proper Tidy (May 2, 2020)

belboid said:


> aah, anything you disagree with must be made up. What a brilliant mind.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That piece only makes the claim that middle class comfortable types were an important section of the leave vote rather than it being a crude w/c leave v m/c remain. Which is fair enough. No idea how it relates to your claim that the SE did brexit, which is very clearly bollocks


----------



## belboid (May 2, 2020)

Anyway, back to the point of this thread.... has anyone got any example of Zarah Sultana making anti-semitic statements? Even the rubbish in the JC (which also slags off Abbott et all for attending a meeting with a wrong kind of jew in it!) can only point out her being virulently in support of BDS against apartheid Israel.  Nothing at all about being anti-jewish.  But it's not about Israel at all, oh no no.


----------



## belboid (May 2, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> That piece only makes the claim that middle class comfortable types were an important section of the leave vote rather than it being a crude w/c leave v m/c remain. Which is fair enough. No idea how it relates to your claim that the SE did brexit, which is very clearly bollocks


it does rather more than that, but whatever. And yes, the statement that is was _all _down to AB's in the SE was hyperbole that I would have assumed even you could realise.  I should have known better.


----------



## Proper Tidy (May 2, 2020)

I agree you should have better


----------



## Proper Tidy (May 2, 2020)

Sneaky edit that


----------



## Smokeandsteam (May 2, 2020)

belboid said:


> Anyway, back to the point of this thread....



lol


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 2, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> Starmer doesn’t appear to have put a foot wrong so far.  Behaving very dignified throughout this pandemic.
> 
> Quite promising.



Cunt off, fucknut.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 2, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Guardian readers a core constituency, this is labour's road back to power



Or further down the crapper.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 2, 2020)

killer b said:


> True leadership is fascist appeasement.




Starmer has pretty much alienated every British Muslim of Pakistani heritage with his licking of Modi's arse. No doubt he thinks he's getting in with a rising superpower, but the shit his decision could stir up here, has obviously not occurred to him.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 2, 2020)

steveseagull said:


> Big Board of Deputies storm coming up for Keir Starmer.
> 
> The Board of Deputies (or one of them) have given Keir Starmer until Monday to suspend Diane Abbott and Bell Ribeiro Addy for being part of a 500 strong open Zoom meeting which contained two Jewish people who were suspended from the party. This Deputy says they will 'cease contact'.
> 
> ...




Bunch of second-rate knobshines who DON'T represent the UK's Jewish communities, playing BIlly Big-Bollocks. What a wunch of bankers. I'd take Abbott or Bell (my MP, who I've met and had a couple of nice chats with) over the BoD, who are a bunch of fascist-appeasing cuntwits, any day.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 2, 2020)

fakeplasticgirl said:


> It was pretty bad though. Bell Ribeiro addy is my MP and I’ve written to her about this. Tony Greenstein and Jackie Walker have said some very nasty things - why was greenstein apparently selected to ask a question at this event?! Why were they even at the meeting if they’ve been suspended?



She's my MP too, one I've talked to. The media (and the wankshaft from the BoD) are misrepresenting this to imply that Abbott & Bell _invited_ Greenstein, etc. They didn't. It was an open Zoom meeting that *anyone* (I'll just say that again, *ANYONE*) could dial into. Now we have to wait and see whether your mate Sir Keir has any cojones or not.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 2, 2020)

belboid said:


> It was a fairly open meeting that neither had anything to do with organising. In fact I think they both slagged the organisers off for not specifically inviting people like them (expellees) to join DLF. no mps could be held responsible for them attending than they could if it were a physical meeting.  It’s a pathetic attempt to stir shit up meaning nothing.



I'd also add that given Lee "Harpic" Harpin is leading the Twitter charge on this, that any rational person should look to Harpic's journalistic record (meaning no offence to the word "journalistic), and conclude that this is more of the same sort of bollocks that almost resulted in the Jewish Chronicle becoming history.


----------



## fakeplasticgirl (May 2, 2020)

ViolentPanda said:


> She's my MP too, one I've talked to. The media (and the wankshaft from the BoD) are misrepresenting this to imply that Abbott & Bell _invited_ Greenstein, etc. They didn't. It was an open Zoom meeting that *anyone* (I'll just say that again, *ANYONE*) could dial into. Now we have to wait and see whether your mate Sir Keir has any cojones or not.


I’m aware of that, and the BoD can go fuck themselves. But is it true that, out of 500 attendees. Greenstein et al were selected to ask questions/contribute? If it is, the MPs should have left. Not cool.

Again, I’ll ask - if members of the Labour Party had been expelled for anti black racism, and then some MPs ended up discussing the future of the Labour Party with them on a Zoom call (regardless of who invited them), would you be ok with that?


----------



## AmateurAgitator (May 2, 2020)

If you ask me Starmer is clearly a fart in trance and will not win Labour any elections, but then I don't think anyone will- unless brexit actually happens and the tories make a collosal fuck up of it, which is a possibility. I just don't find anything impressive about him.


----------



## savoloysam (May 3, 2020)

agricola said:


> I voted for Starmer. I don't think he has covered himself in glory over the past few seconds and was virtually absent on the Coronavirus debate. This has possibly cost a lot of anti-Coronavirus votes. His time is up. He should go. Give the party time to elect a leader and sort themselves out before the next election.



What are you expecting him to do?


----------



## agricola (May 3, 2020)

savoloysam said:


> What are you expecting him to do?



get the thread to at least 929 pages


----------



## Streathamite (May 3, 2020)

campanula said:


> I dunno, Spooky. To be honest, I am kinda relieved.  I can get back into politics with a small p, pestering the local council, tenant's stuff on my estate, benefit struggles, even piddly things like using green spaces...with hippyish things involving playgrounds and community gardens. The recent pandemic has clarified a lot of things for me - primarily, we can only count on ourselves, our neighbourhood, friends, families, community... there is literally no sense of engagement with the Westminster cohort apart from a largely meaningless vote at the ballot box. I allowed myself to get pulled into Labour party stuff ...even after being thrown out twice. I feel I spent 3 years in a foaming rage at politician's venal, base behaviour (seeing an imaginary chink in a mildly socialist/democratic policy...because whatever complaints could be laid at Corbyn's door, I felt his freakish sincerity and attempted transparency was seductively...different to spark just a smidgeon of faith. Irrational, but desperate.   Now, with the utterly irrelevant Starmer, I can safely ignore the LP...in fact the whole electoral shitshow and get back on the local activist, and infinitely more subversive, optimistic and immediate wagon.


Pretty much exactly where l am coming from. 
Starmer might pleasantly surprise us all yet - but I ain't holding my breath


----------



## sleaterkinney (May 4, 2020)

Jennie Formby is standing down


----------



## steveseagull (May 4, 2020)

Sir Keir's new task is to find a replacement who is not implicated in the racist centrist's plot to throw the election.  That should narrow the field somewhat.


----------



## steveseagull (May 4, 2020)

Though he has to make some time for this between reducing the biggest political party in Europe to a financially broken husk of a party and praising the sterling work the Tories have done on COVID-19.


----------



## fakeplasticgirl (May 4, 2020)

steveseagull said:


> Though he has to make some time for this between reducing the biggest political party in Europe to a financially broken husk of a party and praising the sterling work the Tories have done on COVID-19.


He hasn’t been praising the tories. Where do you get this stuff from?!


----------



## steveseagull (May 4, 2020)

PMQs. Telling Raab he had done a good job over the ever mounting death toll. He would have given him a hug if it were not for social distancing.


----------



## fakeplasticgirl (May 4, 2020)




----------



## belboid (May 4, 2020)

“The first secretary invites me to recognise the good work on social distancing and critical care capacity. Can I do that, unreservedly. It’s been an amazing piece of work, particularly the ramping up of capacity, and I send my thanks to all who’ve been involved with it, I absolutely recognise it"

I wonder why folk think he is a bit...crap


----------



## fakeplasticgirl (May 4, 2020)

belboid said:


> I wonder why folk think he is a bit...crap


Do they though? Not sure they do, outside the urban echo chamber


----------



## Jeff Robinson (May 4, 2020)

Genuinely don't even know who Davey is.


----------



## Proper Tidy (May 4, 2020)

He's just such a boring fucker isn't he. Go round his for a barbecue and all he's got is shit white buns red sauce and san miguel. No spliff. Dull fucker.


----------



## belboid (May 4, 2020)

fakeplasticgirl said:


> Do they though? Not sure they do, outside the urban echo chamber
> 
> View attachment 210704


yes. if you looked at /posted the whole poll it would show that most people havent heard of him.  Labour are lower in the pools than at the election.

It is far too early to write him off entirely, but it is quite easy and obvious tht he hasn't really made much of an impression so far.


----------



## redsquirrel (May 4, 2020)

LDs are still in process of choosing their leader - Davey is just interim

To reinforce what belboid said the party results from that Opinium poll
CON: 51% (+1)
LAB: 33% (-)
LDEM: 6% (-1)
GRN: 3% (-)


----------



## fakeplasticgirl (May 4, 2020)

Yep, labour’s reputation still in the gutter, but starmer with a positive approval rating is a decent start, especially in the middle of a pandemic.

plenty of don’t knows but not sure screaming angrily at the government is going to endear himself to them.

interesting that starmer is +4 but labour as a whole is -10.


----------



## killer b (May 4, 2020)

all of you stop posting polls like they mean anything.


----------



## fakeplasticgirl (May 4, 2020)

killer b said:


> all of you stop posting polls like they mean anything.


Only to counter the urban narrative that everyone thinks he’s crap!


----------



## killer b (May 4, 2020)

it doesn't counter anything, because it's just as meaningless as their polls.


----------



## fakeplasticgirl (May 4, 2020)

An opinion poll is actually some sort of measure of public opinion, as opposed to an urban75 echo chamber.


----------



## Sprocket. (May 4, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> He's just such a boring fucker isn't he. Go round his for a barbecue and all he's got is shit white buns red sauce and san miguel. No spliff. Dull fucker.


Cupboards full of hair products though!


----------



## killer b (May 4, 2020)

fakeplasticgirl said:


> An opinion poll is actually some sort of measure of public opinion, as opposed to an urban75 echo chamber.


right, but the only thing they're really measuring now, whatever the question is, is 'how well do people think the government are doing on Coronavirus'


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (May 4, 2020)

He's just Ed Miliband isn't he. I don't know, maybe if you wait long enough circumstances might change to a point where that's more successful than it was for the real one. I wouldn't count on it though and it's certainly not something I could get excited about.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (May 4, 2020)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> He's just Ed Miliband isn't he.


Not that radical.


----------



## killer b (May 4, 2020)

wrong miliband!


----------



## agricola (May 4, 2020)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> He's just Ed Miliband isn't he. I don't know, maybe if you wait long enough circumstances might change to a point where that's more successful than it was for the real one. I wouldn't count on it though and it's certainly not something I could get excited about.



If he takes any lessons from history, I hope he looks at Miliband because Ed could have won 2015 if he had made that election all about the tabloid media and what it had done to people; the "who runs the country" argument but brought up to date.   Leveson was still fresh in everyones mind, it was obvious what side they were on (and what they would do if the Tories won), the attacks on him would have just dug them into an ever deeper hole and most importantly he could have suggested that he had stood in opposition to it.  Of course he decided to make the elections about pink minivans and menhirs instead.


----------



## magneze (May 4, 2020)

agricola said:


> Of course he decided to make the elections about pink minivans and menhirs instead.


🤣🤣🤣


----------



## William of Walworth (May 4, 2020)

agricola said:


> Of course he [Ed Miliband] decided to make the elections about pink minivans and menhirs instead.



 ..... my memory must be truly terrible


----------



## steveseagull (May 4, 2020)

From what I am seeing (from outside the Urban echo chambers) is he is haemorrhaging members and we are fast going from  the largest political party in Europe to a Lib Dem tribute band.

He needs to deal with the elephant in the room which is the Labour leaked report if he is not spending time pushing the government on COVID for whatever reason.

He also needs to forget any thoughts of pushing in Oldknow as general secretary as he will find there is a mass exodus of BAME MPs and we will end up as a Change UK tribute band.


----------



## belboid (May 4, 2020)

agricola said:


> Of course he decided to make the elections about pink minivans and menhirs instead.


Corbs knew how to do menhirs properly.

[U


----------



## William of Walworth (May 4, 2020)

steveseagull said:


> *He also needs to forget any thoughts of pushing in Oldknow as general secretary* as he will find there is a mass exodus of BAME MPs and we will end up as a Change UK tribute band.



I'm willing to gamble that Starmer won't be _quite_ that insane, given the contents of That Report.
But maybe there are still rumours (up-to-date ones I mean) to the contrary?


----------



## agricola (May 4, 2020)

William of Walworth said:


> ..... my memory must be truly terrible


----------



## steveseagull (May 4, 2020)

William of Walworth said:


> I'm willing to gamble that Starmer won't be _quite_ that insane, given the contents of That Report.
> But maybe there are still rumours (up-to-date ones I mean) to the contrary?



Yeah I have seen a fair few rumours floating around Twitter this afternoon.  I strongly suspect Dianne Abbott for one, is at the end of her tether.

I mean, he could have suspended all accused in the days after the report leaked but that would upset a certain faction of the party. So fence sitting. 

I guess we will get to see if he is pulling his own strings or not.


----------



## killer b (May 4, 2020)

steveseagull said:


> he will find there is a mass exodus of BAME MPs and we will end up as a Change UK tribute band.


He won't though.


----------



## William of Walworth (May 4, 2020)

agricola : TBF to you, I had forgotten the Big Stone   at the 2015 GE, and as for the pink van, I'm not sure I ever registered it at the time .....

Not that the description in your post was that obvious


----------



## William of Walworth (May 4, 2020)

steveseagull said:


> Yeah I have seen a fair few rumours floating around Twitter this afternoon.  I strongly suspect Dianne Abbott for one, is at the end of her tether.
> 
> I mean, he could have suspended all accused in the days after the report leaked but that would upset a certain faction of the party. So fence sitting.
> 
> I guess we will get to see if he is pulling his own strings or not.



I take your points, but I don't see them as any kind of likelihood that Oldknow will now become LP General Sec?
I know she was rumoured previously, but!


----------



## fakeplasticgirl (May 4, 2020)

I thought the rumour was Lisa Johnson from GMB.
Don’t know much about her tbh


----------



## belboid (May 4, 2020)

fakeplasticgirl said:


> I thought the rumour was Lisa Johnson from GMB.
> Don’t know much about her tbh


Johnson, Midgely, or someone who makes you go who/what the fuck?


----------



## SpookyFrank (May 4, 2020)

agricola said:


>



I remember the giant tombstone but I forgot just how shit the stuff written on it was. It all reads like the congealed spittle of a million committees.


----------



## Humberto (May 4, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> I remember the giant tombstone but I forgot just how shit the stuff written on it was. It all reads like the congealed spittle of a million committees.



Higher living standards!


----------



## SpookyFrank (May 4, 2020)

Humberto said:


> Higher living standards!



There's a definite note of perestroika-era soviet mixed messaging in there isn't there?


----------



## Humberto (May 4, 2020)

'Controls on immigration' tossed in to show they've got the finger on the nation's pulse


----------



## TopCat (May 5, 2020)

Starmer comes across as a wealthy posho on the TV. I really dont like or trust him at all.


----------



## The39thStep (May 5, 2020)

Humberto said:


> 'Controls on immigration' tossed in to show they've got the finger on the nation's pulse


They were right in that respect


----------



## Humberto (May 5, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> They were right in that respect



I know but it's just shit as a whole thing isn't it? Labour are just shite.


----------



## Humberto (May 5, 2020)

I wish they weren't shite mind you.


----------



## SpookyFrank (May 5, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> They were right in that respect



No they weren't, they decided to become willing participants in the project to reduce British politics to the level of reactionary drivel.

Mililband could have changed the narrative on immigration. He could have refused to allow ordinary people to be scapegoated for the failings of the elite. Or maybe he couldn't, but he could've fucking_ tried_ at least. Instead he decided to let the entire political establishment become united behind a racist narrative. Because by doing so he might have got elected, and maybe then done some spurious good or at least slowed the rot for a couple of years. Look how that turned out.


----------



## The39thStep (May 5, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> No they weren't, they decided to become willing participants in the project to reduce British politics to the level of reactionary drivel.
> 
> Mililband could have changed the narrative on immigration. He could have refused to allow ordinary people to be scapegoated for the failings of the elite. Or maybe he couldn't, but he could've fucking_ tried_ at least. Instead he decided to let the entire political establishment become united behind a racist narrative. Because by doing so he might have got elected, and maybe then done some spurious good or at least slowed the rot for a couple of years. Look how that turned out.



Firstly there is nothing either reactionary or scapegoating about controlling immigration in itself. Secondly I'm not a supporters of Milliband or indeed Labour but to describe Miliband as somehow responsible for some  some decline of Brtish politics is la la land type stuff. What ever Millibands politics he was decidedly to the left of both Blair and Brown in Labour Party terms and the ill fated and limited manifesto is actually more of a  reflection of a heavily Balir -ite dominated Labour Party  HQ,


----------



## brogdale (May 5, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Firstly there is nothing either reactionary or scapegoating about controlling immigration in itself.


But it is the case that the desire to control immigration is almost universally held by reactionaries who yearn for an idealised past.


----------



## The39thStep (May 5, 2020)

brogdale said:


> But it is the case that the desire to control immigration is almost universally held by reactionaries who yearn for an idealised past.
> 
> View attachment 210832


Thats the problem with the working class  Brogdale , they are just so backward and dont fit in with the liberal lefts idea of what they should be .


----------



## belboid (May 5, 2020)

I love it when someone whose retired abroad lectures folk on immigration and what the working classes of their former home think.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (May 5, 2020)

brogdale said:


> But it is the case that the desire to control immigration is almost universally held by reactionaries who yearn for an idealised past.



The two groups that by and large are the most vocally pro-migration are:

1.Those that directly benefit from the transnational movement of labour and capital (and also directly cause the conditions where millions of people are forced to abandon their homes and communities because of the effects of it)

2.Those who cling to the myths of universality and meritocracy under late capitalism. Often culturally, but never economically, adjacent to migrant communities. Sometimes personal beneficiaries of the work and low wage economy.

When leaving their imagined past which group should these reactionaries join?


----------



## belboid (May 5, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> The two groups that by and large are the most vocally pro-migration are:
> 
> 1.Those that directly benefit from the transnational movement of labour and capital (and also directly cause the conditions where millions of people are forced to abandon their homes and communities because of the effects of it)
> 
> ...


lol


----------



## brogdale (May 5, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Thats the problem with the working class  Brogdale , they are just so backward and dont fit in with the liberal lefts idea of what they should be .


Can't tell how much of that is what you believe, might want to project or is part sarcastic.
Whichever...can't say that I agree with any part of it.


----------



## brogdale (May 5, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> The two groups that by and large are the most vocally pro-migration are:
> 
> 1.Those that directly benefit from the transnational movement of labour and capital (and also directly cause the conditions where millions of people are forced to abandon their homes and communities because of the effects of it)
> 
> ...


Thought we were talking about individuals or entities keen to control migration/immigration?


----------



## Proper Tidy (May 5, 2020)

Flexibility of labour is used by capital to attack w/c and one way of achieving that flexibility is by allowing freedom of movement for labour. It's not the only way or even essential to capital because there are lots of ways to maintain that flexibility, thereby undermining any potential for effective collective bargaining etc. Eg closed/heavily restricted borders but a large sector of surplus labour, punitive benefits regime for that sector of surplus labour forced to complete in race to bottom, competition within labour between permanent workforces, agencies, outsourcing, contractors - all driving down either wages or conditions for each other. All of which we already have, regardless of migration. 

So a left or pro w/c politics that focusses on migration/border control is pointless even putting aside the insularity of focusing on one w/c only because its taking out one gun from many, and at what cost for lots of w/c people.

But given migration, particularly the EU model of freedom of movement _for labour_ within a heavily restricted supranational border, is exactly and specifically used to enforce flexibility of labour at the cost of w/c security, conditions, and ability to struggle for improvements, then its also pointless and a bit silly to argue that the only people who are against/have concerns about immigration are racists or reactionaries who yearn for an idealised past.

You can't call people reactionaries solely for correctly identifying one of the ways they are kept in their place and consequently, due to a self-interest that is essential to ever building a movement based on w/c solidarity, having concerns about that.


----------



## belboid (May 5, 2020)

The above, while putting forward the usual lazy argument that arguing against immigration controls equates to calling everyone else reactionaries, forgets the migrants are also working class people.  Talk of ‘the class’ as restricted to single nations is fundamentally wrong.


----------



## Proper Tidy (May 5, 2020)

belboid said:


> The above, while putting forward the usual lazy argument that arguing against immigration controls equates to calling everyone else reactionaries, forgets the migrants are also working class people.  Talk of ‘the class’ as restricted to single nations is fundamentally wrong.



I specifically make the point that it's insular to look at one w/c and that it's pointless to argue for immigration controls so I don't think I'm the lazy one here mate


----------



## Proper Tidy (May 5, 2020)

I do like the way that to you there is only a right way and a wrong way to look at things though, and if it's the wrong way then they must be saying a,b,c even when they are saying x,y,z. It must get you far in life.


----------



## Proper Tidy (May 5, 2020)

This was the best bit of belboid's post tho. Dickhead.



belboid said:


> the usual lazy argument that arguing against immigration controls equates to calling everyone else reactionaries.





brogdale said:


> But it is the case that the desire to control immigration is almost universally held by reactionaries who yearn for an idealised past.


----------



## brogdale (May 5, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> This was the best bit of belboid's post tho. Dickhead.


I did mean it as it's written.


> the desire to control immigration is almost universally held by reactionaries who yearn for an idealised past


Not the other way round.
Just for clarity, like.


----------



## belboid (May 5, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> I specifically make the point that it's insular to look at one w/c and that it's pointless to argue for immigration controls so I don't think I'm the lazy one here mate


Don’t blame me cos your posts are contradictory drivel, my dear shit flinging gibbon.


----------



## Proper Tidy (May 5, 2020)

belboid said:


> Don’t blame me cos your posts are contradictory drivel, my dear shit flinging gibbon.



Lol. Leftism by rote. Welcome to marxism guys


----------



## belboid (May 5, 2020)

Are you just repeating phrases you heard a big boy use once?


----------



## Proper Tidy (May 5, 2020)

Jesus belboid you're just shit. Shit boring borrowed politics with no thought, unquestioning, unthinking. And you devote your life to this pointlessness. This is you. Tragic really.


----------



## belboid (May 5, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Jesus belboid you're just shit. Shit boring borrowed politics with no thought, unquestioning, unthinking. And you devote your life to this pointlessness. This is you. Tragic really.


Lol, you don’t have a clue, lad.  You’re just a loudmouth pub bore who thinks you’re it while everyone else patronises you.  A waste of time and energy.  Try doing something worthwhile, like going to masturbate a duck. more worthwhile than anything you’ve ever said on here anyway.  

bye bye


----------



## Proper Tidy (May 5, 2020)

'lad'


----------



## The39thStep (May 5, 2020)

belboid said:


> I love it when someone whose retired abroad lectures folk on immigration and what the working classes of their former home think.


I love the irony of someone  who lives in the UK and who supports no borders implying that only people who live in the UK can express a view on immigration in the UK. Perhaps you could get the mods to put a UK resident only warning on appropriate threads? You are a funny old soul at times Belboid.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (May 5, 2020)

belboid said:


> Talk of ‘the class’ as restricted to single nations is fundamentally wrong.



Except there has been absolutely no framing of the debate in those terms. Piss poor even by your piss poor standards.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (May 5, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> I love the irony of someone  who lives in the UK and who supports no borders implying that only people who live in the UK can express a view on immigration in the UK. Perhaps you could get the mods to put a UK resident only warning on appropriate threads? You are a funny old soul at times Belboid.



British debate on migration for British residents


----------



## Proper Tidy (May 5, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Except there has been absolutely no framing of the debate in those terms. Piss poor even by your piss poor standards.



His use of single quote marks also very good given that's what he moaned like fuck about the other day to avoid expanding on his comments about left antisemitism being a made up conspiracy


----------



## belboid (May 5, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> I love the irony of someone  who lives in the UK and who supports no borders implying that only people who live in the UK can express a view on immigration in the UK. Perhaps you could get the mods to put a UK resident only warning on appropriate threads? You are a funny old soul at times Belboid.


lol, oh come on, even you must spot the irony.  You can express a view on whatever the fuck you like.  You are perfectly free to demand people don’t get the benefits you have availed yourself of. And you can even make up demands for other people that they obviously don’t actually agree with.  

Nothing at all to stop you doing any of those things. As long as you don’t mind looking a bit of a hypocrite.


----------



## steveseagull (May 5, 2020)

We now have the highest death toll in Europe but UK Labour say "now is not the time to hold government to account".

We urgently need a functioning opposition.


----------



## redsquirrel (May 5, 2020)

brogdale said:


> I did mean it as it's written.
> 
> Not the other way round.
> Just for clarity, like.


Sorry may being really dim here but doesn't that mean you are saying that the 50+% of people (not only in the UK but in many countries) that want immigration controls are reactionaries? 

I mean I'd agree that reactionaries who yearn for an idealised past desire almost universally want to control immigration, but I would disagree with the reverse.


----------



## The39thStep (May 5, 2020)

belboid said:


> lol, oh come on, even you must spot the irony.  You can express a view on whatever the fuck you like.  You are perfectly free to demand people don’t get the benefits you have availed yourself of. And you can even make up demands for other people that they obviously don’t actually agree with.
> 
> Nothing at all to stop you doing any of those things. As long as you don’t mind looking a bit of a hypocrite.


The idea that someone who lives in a country abroad which has its own immigration controls shouldn't support immigration controls  because they have immigrated  and is therefore hypocritical is a belter Belboid. Tell that to the Indians in Southall .


----------



## belboid (May 5, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> The idea that someone who lives in a country abroad which has its own immigration controls shouldn't support immigration controls  because they have immigrated  and is therefore hypocritical is a belter Belboid. Tell that to the Indians in Southall .


The immigrants in southall who want the right for more migrants to be allowed in from India? Of course immigrants often want to stop further immigration, especially the ‘next wave’ of immigrants who (they often see) are likely to stir up more anti-immigrant feeling when they feel like they’ve only just been accepted. Quite understandable, but also hypocritical.  And let’s not forget that you can’t entirely separate anti-immigration sentiment from anti-immigrant sentiment.


----------



## The39thStep (May 5, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Can't tell how much of that is what you believe, might want to project or is part sarcastic.
> Whichever...can't say that I agree with any part of it.


I know this discussion started on Miliband but this will always stick in my mind


----------



## brogdale (May 5, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> Sorry may being really dim here but doesn't that mean you are saying that the 50+% of people (not only in the UK but in many countries) that want immigration controls are reactionaries?
> 
> I mean I'd agree that reactionaries who yearn for an idealised past desire almost universally want to control immigration, but I would disagree with the reverse.


No, the later.
I was responding to this:


The39thStep said:


> Firstly there is nothing either reactionary or scapegoating about controlling immigration in itself.


Which, I'd challenge as those who yearn for an idealised past almost universally want to control immigration, and such populist noises are specifically designed to appeal to that cohort.


----------



## brogdale (May 5, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> I know this discussion started on Miliband but this will always stick in my mind



Yeah, hard not to forget that and the consequent storm.
Genuinely interested in what you think we should draw from that clip.


----------



## redsquirrel (May 5, 2020)

brogdale said:


> No, the later.
> I was responding to this:
> 
> Which, I'd challenge as those who yearn for an idealised past almost universally want to control immigration, and such populist noises are specifically designed to appeal to that cohort.



Sorry being really dense here, but to be clear are you arguing: 
1. the desire to control immigration is almost universally held by reactionaries who yearn for an idealised past
2. reactionaries who yearn for an idealised past desire almost universally want to control immigration
or both? 
If you are arguing 1 I don't see how you are not calling millions of people, in many countries majorities of the population, reactionaries.


----------



## brogdale (May 5, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> Sorry being really dense here, but to be clear are you arguing:
> 1. the desire to control immigration is almost universally held by reactionaries who yearn for an idealised past
> 2. reactionaries who yearn for an idealised past desire almost universally want to control immigration
> or both?
> If you are arguing 1 I don't see how you are not calling millions of people, in many countries majorities of the population, reactionaries.


2.


----------



## redsquirrel (May 5, 2020)

brogdale said:


> 2.


OK Ta.

EDIT: I thought that was more likely but I was confused by post #521


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## oryx (May 5, 2020)

A lot of the points made about the economic aspects of immigration seem to ignore the fact that feelings against those who migrate here to work go (at least) back to the 1950s when there was actually a labour shortage. Notting Hill riots and all that.


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## The39thStep (May 5, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Yeah, hard not to forget that and the consequent storm.
> Genuinely interested in what you think we should draw from that clip.



It sems a long time ago now doesnt it? The actual exchange isnt that bad tbh. Ok he sidesteps the East Europeans coming over here  concern. He could have asked what made it in her eyes a concern and explored that more and he seemed to want to brush her off with some very dodgy figures over immigation/ emmigration. She didnt come over as some bog eyed racist , if he had of explored her fears then he might have learnt something or even might have had an apt response . However its his haste to step over that which was typical of Labours approach at that time , a sort of nothing to see here move on. I remember at the same time there were several articles written by labour around the same period which sort of argued look its old people and they wont be around for long sort of stuff . At the same time Denham and others were also writing about the fact that some of the issues around immigration were not to be shyed away from and that they had pallatable affects in local communities over housing and other local resources. 
Its Browns remarks in the car which are so damning though and there are echoes of the future when remainers in Labour wrote off millions of working class people who voted leave as racist. Also  typical of that period , and probably today, about stage managing walkabouts so as not to be asked the wrong question. The BNP had a field day with it as I recall. 

What do you make of it?


----------



## Sprocket. (May 5, 2020)

Edit.


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## brogdale (May 5, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> It sems a long time ago now doesnt it? The actual exchange isnt that bad tbh. Ok he sidesteps the East Europeans coming over here  concern. He could have asked what made it in her eyes a concern and explored that more and he seemed to want to brush her off with some very dodgy figures over immigation/ emmigration. She didnt come over as some bog eyed racist , if he had of explored her fears then he might have learnt something or even might have had an apt response . However its his haste to step over that which was typical of Labours approach at that time , a sort of nothing to see here move on. I remember at the same time there were several articles written by labour around the same period which sort of argued look its old people and they wont be around for long sort of stuff . At the same time Denham and others were also writing about the fact that some of the issues around immigration were not to be shyed away from and that they had pallatable affects in local communities over housing and other local resources.
> Its Browns remarks in the car which are so damning though and there are echoes of the future when remainers in Labour wrote off millions of working class people who voted leave as racist. Also  typical of that period , and probably today, about stage managing walkabouts so as not to be asked the wrong question. The BNP had a field day with it as I recall.
> 
> What do you make of it?


I remember watching it on the news that night, thinking about how Brown had blown New Labour's chance and we were set for a tory government. 
I concur with what you say in your description above, but I was really interested in what you thought it had to say about the discussion we were all having about controlling immigration; that's all.
FWIW, at the close of the 'convo' it always looked like Mrs Duffy was going to continue voting Labour and her concerns about East Europeans seemed most focussed on housing needs.


----------



## The39thStep (May 5, 2020)

brogdale said:


> I remember watching it on the news that night, thinking about how Brown had blown New Labour's chance and we were set for a tory government.
> I concur with what you say in your description above, but I was really interested in what you thought it had to say about the discussion we were all having about controlling immigration; that's all.
> FWIW, at the close of the 'convo' it always looked like Mrs Duffy was going to continue voting Labour and her concerns about East Europeans seemed most focussed on housing needs.



She clearly wanted some control or some say , at very least a discussion. She wasnt a reactionary imo and like most anxious about the future.


----------



## brogdale (May 5, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> She clearly wanted some control or some say , at very least a discussion. She wasnt a reactionary imo and like most anxious about the future.


Who knows what she wanted wrt immigration controls, but she was clearly exercised about the numbers of East Europeans 'flocking' into her town or, at least, her part of town?

6 years later she did this piece for 'Newsnight' and she was explicitly yearning for an idealised past in a vague, ethnographies-nationalist fashion.


----------



## Gramsci (May 5, 2020)

oryx said:


> A lot of the points made about the economic aspects of immigration seem to ignore the fact that feelings against those who migrate here to work go (at least) back to the 1950s when there was actually a labour shortage. Notting Hill riots and all that.



Which acounts for the high remain vote in my area ( Brixton) with a large Black British working class population. As friend ( whose parents came from Carribbean ) the same complaints were made about his fathers generation ( Wndrush generation) as the East Europeans more recently.

One can take it further back to the East European Jews who came here from 1880 to beginning of WW1.


----------



## The39thStep (May 5, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Who knows what she wanted wrt immigration controls, but she was clearly exercised about the numbers of East Europeans 'flocking' into her town or, at least, her part of town?
> 
> 6 years later she did this piece for 'Newsnight' and she was explicitly yearning for an idealised past in a vague, ethnographies-nationalist fashion.



If people are unable to make sense of the present and there is no future  to aspire to then people look to a past, however idealised and probaly historically incorrect it was.  I would  hardly expect her to come out with a marxist or anarchist critique of the EU. What does what ever the left is or anarchist scene is these days offer people like her. Judgement and thats about it.


----------



## belboid (May 5, 2020)

And just because someone’s view is understandable it doesn’t mean we should agree with it.  What good will supporting immigration controls actually do her?

it’s the kind of attitude that gets you mugs with controls on immigration written on.  Nothing of any real use.


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## brogdale (May 5, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> If people are unable to make sense of the present and there is no future  to aspire to then people look to a past, however idealised and probaly historically incorrect it was.  I would  hardly expect her to come out with a marxist or anarchist critique of the EU. What does what ever the left is or anarchist scene is these days offer people like her. Judgement and thats about it.


I've long argued on here that populists pretending to yearn for an idealised past, have been able to tap into a very strongly held belief in people, especially of Gillian's age, that things were better for working class people in the past. There's a very good reason why that works so well.


----------



## redsquirrel (May 5, 2020)

brogdale said:


> I've long argued on here that populists pretending to yearn for an idealised past, have been able to tap into a very strongly held belief in people, especially of Gillian's age, that things were better for working class people in the past. There's a very good reason why that works so well.


A belief that is held by many because it is not without foundation.


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## Smokeandsteam (May 5, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> A belief that is held by many because it is not without foundation.



This is a point that is often forgotten when people attempt to refer to ‘imagined pasts’. Rising pay, strong unions, the ‘affluent society’, decreasing inequality and a sense of being at the centre of the economic priorities of the nation mean that, in many respects, a better past isn’t just imagined.

It’s also often forgotten that this state of affairs was constructed as intimately bound up and dependent on a strong and healthy nation state. Class gains in turn were popularly understood to strengthen the nation state and boundaries. You can criticise this but to deny it or to overlook how deeply it became embedded is a mistake.

Writing all of this off and those whose who have lived experience of it as ‘reactionary’ takes us precisely nowhere.


----------



## Humberto (May 5, 2020)

Just a couple of thoughts. We don't have as many state assets as in the past, i.e common ownership. So what we had in the past would be considered socialist now by the neoliberals. The profit motive, private interest,  whittles down rights to secure employment, and collective effort I think it is fair to say. So there is less of a collective belonging, community. That's a big deal for society. I ought to look it up properly first and I'm not too good with facts and figures, but I think people's mental health has suffered in many cases.


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## Smokeandsteam (May 5, 2020)

I’m not massively convinced by the ‘common ownership’ argument Humberto

If you look at the actual experience of nationalisation, in say coal mining, you can see the idea of worker participation (never mind worker ownership)was never on the table.

What neo-liberalism destroyed so effectively was what communities built around work - strong unions whose influence rippled out into the wider community, community resources and sports and social groups, working class cultural production and a sense that the state could be used by communities to improve matters further. It also destroyed assumptions about value and worth and rendered millions of people in previously vibrant communities as ‘surplus to requirements’. A shocking and harrowing experience in its rapidity and violence


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## brogdale (May 5, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> This is a point that is often forgotten when people attempt to refer to ‘imagined pasts’. Rising pay, strong unions, the ‘affluent society’, decreasing inequality and a sense of being at the centre of the economic priorities of the nation mean that, in many respects, a better past isn’t just imagined.
> 
> It’s also often forgotten that this state of affairs was constructed as intimately bound up and dependent on a strong and healthy nation state. Class gains in turn were popularly understood to strengthen the nation state and boundaries. You can criticise this but to deny it or to overlook how deeply it became embedded is a mistake.
> 
> Writing all of this off and those whose who have lived experience of it as ‘reactionary’ takes us precisely nowhere.


Yes, but it's equally true that reactionary hegemonic forces have exploited the deteriorating lived experience of working class people. Any tendency to overlook that is worse than taking us nowhere.


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## Gramsci (May 6, 2020)

This past depends on where you are coming from.

Working class person whose parents came here from Carribbean is going to have mixed feelings about the Britain they came to from Windrush period onwards.

The "mother country" wasn't that welcoming to the parents. Growing up in inner London in 60s and 70s and the picture I have had from Black British friends is that the past is a mixed picture.

The children born here found the "state" in the shape of the police was racist. They also were less prepared to put up with this than parents and 81 riots were the result.


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## belboid (May 6, 2020)

While it wouldn't apply to Duffy, anyone under-60 talking about such golden age is just fantasising.


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## redsquirrel (May 6, 2020)

Many in their 30s/40s/50s may still have experienced a decline in their living standards personally. Moreover, they can see how they are worse off than their parents, how their kids are/will be worse off than them.

The post-war period should not be idealised as a golden age (and it is not only nationalist populists that idealise, even a brief scroll through threads on U75 would find plenty of social democrats doing the same), but the material conditions that we have experiences over the last 30 years, and are experiencing today, play a role in shaping our politics. To put anti-immigration sentiments, hostility of the EU, or any other viewpoint solely, or even primarily, down to what is published in newspapers or the politics of reactionary parties is simplistic and useless.


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## brogdale (May 6, 2020)

belboid said:


> While it wouldn't apply to Duffy, anyone under-60 talking about such golden age is just fantasising.


I think that’s a bit off, tbh.
As a kid brought up in a poor, working class household beset by unemployment and disability, I was well aware of things deteriorating well before adulthood. And don’t forget that stories of how things were ( better) back then get culturally transmitted from generation to generation within families.


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## Louis MacNeice (May 6, 2020)

belboid said:


> While it wouldn't apply to Duffy, anyone under-60 talking about such golden age is just fantasising.



There was nothing in the post war settlement that was better (from a working class point of view) than the current neo-liberal consensus? That is what is being proposed, not some easily debunkable 'golden age'. I think you are unhelpfully, over egging the pudding.

Cheers - Louis (not yet 60...but getting there) MacNeice


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## Smokeandsteam (May 6, 2020)

brogdale said:


> I think that’s a bit off, tbh.
> As a kid brought up in a poor, working class household beset by unemployment and disability, I was well aware of things deteriorating well before adulthood. And don’t forget that stories of how things were ( better) back then get culturally transmitted from generation to generation within families.



Precisely this. Also, EP Thompson demonstrates how proto industrial working class communities made use of customs, forms of organisation, community and _a set of developed expectations from lived experience _to make sense of, and to resist, industrialisation. Exactly the same process is now taking place in post industrial communities. The idea that the ‘structure of feeling’ is limited to the over 60’s is simply wrong


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## brogdale (May 6, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Precisely this. Also, EP Thompson demonstrates how proto industrial working class communities made use of customs, forms of organisation, community and _a set of developed expectations from lived experience _to make sense of, and to resist, industrialisation. Exactly the same process is now taking place in post industrial communities. The idea that the ‘structure of feeling’ is limited to the over 60’s is simply wrong


Well, yes.
My eldest (27) is well aware that when his parents were the same age:

their rent was a far lower % of weekly pay
socialised housing was possible
their debts were lower/hardly existent because, on full grant, HE had been free at the point of delivery
their employment was (relatively) secure
their jobs had occupational pensions included
the health service was accessible in good time
their unions had meaning/some clout
welfare was universal and straightforward to access when needed
etc. etc. because we've told him.


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## ska invita (May 6, 2020)

oryx said:


> feelings against those who migrate here to work go (at least) back to the 1950s when there was actually a labour shortage.


i wonder what percentage of those people in the 1950s were reactionaries? 



The39thStep said:


> If people are unable to make sense of the present *and there is no future  to aspire *to then people look to a past, however idealised and probaly historically incorrect it was.


Majority of the UKIP cohort are aspirational, wealthy, relatively successful...the home counties are full of them. What bit of the present can't Kippers make sense of?


brogdale said:


> Who knows what she wanted wrt immigration controls, but she was clearly exercised about the numbers of East Europeans 'flocking' into her town or, at least, her part of town?
> 
> 6 years later she did this piece for 'Newsnight' and she was explicitly yearning for an idealised past in a vague, ethnographies-nationalist fashion.



in that clip 1 min 30 secs she explicitly talks about being "frightened of losing english identity" ...pure nationalist identity politics


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## Steel Icarus (May 6, 2020)

I think it's often a case of misunderstanding the difference between "losing [a] national identity" and having culture and perceptions of the world change around you faster or in different ways than you can understand.


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## redsquirrel (May 6, 2020)

ska invita said:


> in that clip 1 min 30 secs she explicitly talks about being "frightened of losing english identity" ...pure nationalist identity politics


If you are going to make that nationalist identity politics you are making most of the working-class of the huge swathes of the globe nationalist.

Lets look at what Duffy actually says - that the EU has got too large (a point even many pro-EU people would agree with); that it is taking money from people like her, which it of course is; that the leaflet the government sent out was crap, which it was; that whatever happens the rich would stay rich, again true; that she loves 'being English' and does not want to 'be European'. With the possible exception of the last one all of those seem pretty sensible to me.

On her comments about being English, it's hard to get full meaning of what she meant from a 10 second sound bite, but even while she may be idealising a past England she admits that it is in the past. I don't particularly love or hate being English, but I certainly believe being born in the UK and England have shaped my "identity", and I feel a connection to the UK/England that I don't to Canada/Australia (despite living and working in those countries).  

Moreover, what is reactionary about her position? In the formation that someone like Habermas desires (and that you seem to follow) English/French/German identities would be replaced by an "european identify', the replacement of 'nationalist identity politics' by supra-nationalist identity politics. That may be progressive to some but not to me.


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## steveseagull (May 6, 2020)

Starmer has started off well


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## Steel Icarus (May 6, 2020)

steveseagull said:


> Starmer has started off well


Somebody recognised him?


----------



## belboid (May 6, 2020)

brogdale said:


> etc. etc. because we've told him.


Oh come on, you are never going to hanker for an earlier age, in the way Duffy did, because of _what your parents told you_. You can’t compare that second hand knowledge with actual lived experience. The means for it to be passed thru generations within most towns and cities has also been shattered. And that hankering is also way more than just missing a drop in living standards - which are higher now than for the vast majority in 1980.


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## redsquirrel (May 6, 2020)

These are the full statements Duffy makes on identity



			
				Gillian Duffy said:
			
		

> But I’m frighted [of] losing our identity as well, you know our English, that’s what I’m frighted of as well.
> 
> We’ll never get England back to where it was, but I love being English and I don’t want to be a European


Muddled yes, conservative (small c) probably, reactionary?


----------



## Smangus (May 6, 2020)

steveseagull said:


> Starmer has started off well



Who?


----------



## belboid (May 6, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> These are the full statements Duffy makes on identity
> Muddled yes, conservative (small c) probably, reactionary?


it is one of those quotes that you couldn't imagine 99% of black people saying. Which obviously doesnt _prove_ its reactionary, but it is very socially specific.


----------



## brogdale (May 6, 2020)

belboid said:


> Oh come on, you are never going to hanker for an earlier age, in the way Duffy did, because of _what your parents told you_. You can’t compare that second hand knowledge with actual lived experience. The means for it to be passed thru generations within most towns and cities has also been shattered. And that hankering is also way more than just missing a drop in living standards - which are higher now than for the vast majority in 1980.


tbh, I don't think (?) I said my boy hankers for an earlier age; aside from being logically nonsensical, he's too bright to indulge in any vicarious nostalgia .
However, he is well aware that when his grandparents were in their prime and his parents growing up, many aspects of their lived experience, as working class people, was a damn sight better than the neoliberal shite he wades through daily. 

Not trying to generalise from the specific, but I don't believe that my family's experience of this cultural awareness is radically different from many others?


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## belboid (May 6, 2020)

brogdale said:


> tbh, I don't think (?) I said my boy hankers for an earlier age; aside from being logically nonsensical, he's too bright to indulge in any vicarious nostalgia .
> However, he is well aware that when his grandparents were in their prime and his parents growing up, many aspects of their lived experience, as working class people, was a damn sight better than the neoliberal shite he wades through daily.
> 
> Not trying to generalise from the specific, but I don't believe that my family's experience of this cultural awareness is radically different from many others?


well, it depends upon their experience of, say, racism, sexism and homophobia, appalling housing - that may have been socially owned, but was still often shit - far worse health and safety (legally at least), far fewer opportunities to go onto higher education, not to mention travel or ability to access to a wider culturally world, via the net and the other increases in communication between peoples.  
So, yes, many young people may recognise there were some ways n which the sixties/seventies were better, but they'd also be fully aware - and more directly aware - that things were also worse in many ways too.


----------



## brogdale (May 6, 2020)

belboid said:


> well, it depends upon their experience of, say, racism, sexism and homophobia, appalling housing - that may have been socially owned, but was still often shit - far worse health and safety (legally at least), far fewer opportunities to go onto higher education, not to mention travel or ability to access to a wider culturally world, via the net and the other increases in communication between peoples.
> So, yes, many young people may recognise there were some ways n which the sixties/seventies were better, but they'd also be fully aware - and more directly aware - that things were also worse in many ways too.


All fair points; social/economic change is never really one dimensional, is it?
FWIW, the boy is no fan of identity politics and, being a temp on minimum wage in ludicrously expensive rental accommodation, has little if any chance of travel etc.
Thing is, I look at his life chances, housing, employment and it makes me fucking angry what's been done to our class.


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## Proper Tidy (May 6, 2020)

Goes without saying that some things are better, lots of things. It's the power we were able to exert as a class and the benefits of and gains from that which has been beaten back.

Cant remember who now and cba going back through thread but somebody a page or two back made point that this 'nostalgia' is as much a feature of left as of right - spirit of '45, coal not dole badges etc. Not sure nostalgia is best term always anyway, there is a big difference between grievances based on the loss of labour power and social solidarity (yes with lots of racism and sexism and chauvinism within) and the tory shit about warm beer and cricket and all that bollocks


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## brogdale (May 6, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Goes without saying that some things are better, lots of things. It's the power we were able to exert as a class and the benefits of and gains from that which has been beaten back.
> 
> Cant remember who now and cba going back through thread but somebody a page or two back made point that this 'nostalgia' is as much a feature of left as of right - spirit of '45, coal not dole badges etc. Not sure nostalgia is best term always anyway, there is a big difference between grievances based on the loss of labour power and social solidarity (yes with lots of racism and sexism and chauvinism within) and the tory shit about warm beer and cricket and all that bollocks


Yes, a huge difference between folk knowing/thinkings were better in the past and capital, or factions of capital's political wing, exploiting that memory by peddling a populist, idealised past for electoral gain.


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## Humberto (May 6, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Goes without saying that some things are better, lots of things. It's the power we were able to exert as a class and the benefits of and gains from that which has been beaten back.
> 
> Cant remember who now and cba going back through thread but somebody a page or two back made point that this 'nostalgia' is as much a feature of left as of right - spirit of '45, coal not dole badges etc. Not sure nostalgia is best term always anyway, there is a big difference between grievances based on the loss of labour power and social solidarity (yes with lots of racism and sexism and chauvinism within) and the tory shit about warm beer and cricket and all that bollocks



People will choose to believe myths, others will create or exploit them. As has been said there are things that are better now and things that have been made worse. Just the whole having to be really enthusiastic in some lines of employment. But most forms of discrimination have been curtailed (though this too is lamented by some, and exploited by others).


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## Proper Tidy (May 6, 2020)

There was something I read a while back, I think it might have even been that american jacobin mag online or something, anyway piece was comparing how socialist/communist movements of early 20c exploited a rich seam of propaganda based on a new unchartered brighter future to great effect precisely because w/c people had seen real material improvements due to labour power so this struck a chord, while the right in early 21c have enjoyed success with the reverse - a nostalgia for an earlier time - for the reverse reason, because its hard to sell the idea of a brighter future when the collective perception is of falling behind not moving forward


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## oryx (May 6, 2020)

Humberto said:


> Just the whole having to be really enthusiastic in some lines of employment.


This ^

Seems to be one of the many practices we have unfortunately imported from US work culture. See also: people blathering on about how hard they work, presenteeism etc. etc.


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## The39thStep (May 6, 2020)

ska invita said:


> i wonder what percentage of those people in the 1950s were reactionaries?
> 
> 
> Majority of the UKIP cohort are aspirational, wealthy, relatively successful...the home counties are full of them. What bit of the present can't Kippers make sense of?
> ...


UKIP cohort ? Depends what year you want to look at for a UKIP cohort obviously a present one would be thin on the ground . I know you are trying to stereotype her but she’s clearly not the sort of Home Counties stereotype you would like her to be


ska invita said:


> i wonder what percentage of those people in the 1950s were reactionaries?
> 
> 
> Majority of the UKIP cohort are aspirational, wealthy, relatively successful...the home counties are full of them. What bit of the present can't Kippers make sense of?
> ...



Look Ska I wouldnt want to dissuarde you from your view that she's worse than Hitler with her 'pure nationalist identity politics' However I would like to take up this issue of the 'majority of the UKIP cohort are aspirational, wealthy, relatively successful...the home counties are full of them. ' I'm not sure which cohort you are refering to but the picture is a lot more mixed in reality.   UKIP supportes in Bale's  Footsoldiers: Political Party Membership in the 21st Century working class members were estimated at around 34%, compared toLabour's working class were  estimated at 23%.There obviously arent figures for the anarchist scene. In Evan's Working Class Votes and Conservative Losses: Solving the UKIP Puzzle the majority of supporters fall into the  self-employed ,lower supervisory , semi-routine workers and routine workers categories . Lower supervisory and routine were the largest supporters. 
I point this out as your stereo type wouldnt explain UKIP support (at its peak) in places like Heywood and Middleton 38.7% , Wyhenshaw 18%, Rotherham 21.7% , South Shields 24% and so on and so forth. Not only is a large proprtion of the UKIP 'cohort' not wealthy and relatively succesful and living in the Home Counties' but a significant amount of them when polled were pessimistic about the future.
Take this and put it in a wider context that the Conservatives are the largest supported party amongst the working class and that in  the 'left behind' areas Labours support is at it lowest for decades and not likely to recover quickly if indeed it ever does. The question is of course where does this leave the left ,and to be inclusive the anarchist scene , in all of this with its  relationship with the working class? We cant assume that the working class is by some divine right the property of the left and the anarchist scene , we can ask the question how is it ithe right can exploit these grievances but the left and anarchist scene can't. We can of course try and argue its the wrong working class for the left and the anarchist scene  and perhaps we need to look elsewhere.   Its a difficult one to answer I dont have the answers but a wrong answer would be to dismiss with a wave of a judgemental hand the views  of a run of the mill  long standing working class Labour supporter about not wanting to be  European, asking about temporary foreign labour and expressing a view that she was worried about losing English identity  as 'pure nationalist identity politics'.Unless of course you thought Gordon Brown's opinion of her was too restrained.


----------



## The39thStep (May 6, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> There was something I read a while back, I think it might have even been that american jacobin mag online or something, anyway piece was comparing how socialist/communist movements of early 20c exploited a rich seam of propaganda based on a new unchartered brighter future to great effect precisely because w/c people had seen real material improvements due to labour power so this struck a chord, while the right in early 21c have enjoyed success with the reverse - a nostalgia for an earlier time - for the reverse reason, because its hard to sell the idea of a brighter future when the collective perception is of falling behind not moving forward


Very true , I went to a seminar on the BNPs succes in Burnley in the early 2000s which examined their campaign . They played heavily on photos of a more prosperous Burnley with industry, mills , high streets full etc  and its decline.


----------



## belboid (May 6, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> UKIP cohort ? Depends what year you want to look at for a UKIP cohort obviously a present one would be thin on the ground . I know you are trying to stereotype her but she’s clearly not the sort of Home Counties stereotype you would like her to be
> 
> 
> Look Ska I wouldnt want to dissuarde you from your view that she's worse than Hitler with her 'pure nationalist identity politics' However I would like to take up this issue of the 'majority of the UKIP cohort are aspirational, wealthy, relatively successful...the home counties are full of them. ' I'm not sure which cohort you are refering to but the picture is a lot more mixed in reality.   UKIP supportes in Bale's  Footsoldiers: Political Party Membership in the 21st Century working class members were estimated at around 34%, compared toLabour's working class were  estimated at 23%.There obviously arent figures for the anarchist scene. In Evan's Working Class Votes and Conservative Losses: Solving the UKIP Puzzle the majority of supporters fall into the  self-employed ,lower supervisory , semi-routine workers and routine workers categories . Lower supervisory and routine were the largest supporters.
> ...


all well and good (or at least I'm willing to accept it as such for the moment), but it still doesn't address the question of what you say or do once you have understood where and why she is coming from.  I'll ask again - what good will imposing some immigration controls _actually _do her?

Also worth noting that the working-class groups you mention are largely those who are classically seen as the w-c elements most likely to go over to fascism, which some did even when there was a mass socialist movement able to exert pressure.  Those who have been more isolated from the wider class are more likely to take up reactionary positions. Positions we can only change through argument and through the example of solidarity that actually delivers.


----------



## Proper Tidy (May 6, 2020)

belboid said:


> all well and good (or at least I'm willing to accept it as such for the moment), but it still doesn't address the question of what you say or do once you have understood where and why she is coming from.  I'll ask again - what good will imposing some immigration controls _actually _do her?



Won't do any good, because migratory labour is only one of a number of ways capital has to use labour on labour to drive down wages, conditions, and security for the w/c as a whole. Which was the point of my post yesterday. But surely understanding why people think it would improve their lot and not dismissing it improves the chances of winning a political argument within the w/c instead of just ceding the ground


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## The39thStep (May 6, 2020)

belboid said:


> all well and good (or at least I'm willing to accept it as such for the moment), but it still doesn't address the question of what you say or do once you have understood where and why she is coming from.  I'll ask again - what good will imposing some immigration controls _actually _do her?
> 
> Also worth noting that the working-class groups you mention are largely those who are classically seen as the w-c elements most likely to go over to fascism, which some did even when there was a mass socialist movement able to exert pressure.  Those who have been more isolated from the wider class are more likely to take up reactionary positions. Positions we can only change through argument and through the example of solidarity that actually delivers.



Lets  do the worth noting bit first .I'd caution as describing UKIP under Farage as fascist tbh or The Brexit Party. Populist yes but fascist nope. On the w/class elements most likely to go over to fascism yes and no imo. Firstly the 'class descriptions' in the piece I mentioned take a bit of deciphering and the shift to self employment /small business over the last decades especially distorts the classical Trotskyist analysis of that sector. However combine that with the fall in Trade Union membership and the increase in precarious work /the drive to the bottom and yes we have a vulnerable post industrial group wthin the working class. Winslow in his book on the EDL, the rise of the right makes a very compelling case for this although his conclusions about a way forward unfortunately arent as compelling. Yes I agree its only through collective struggle that its possible to change opinions or views on a mass or wider scale. 

Immigration controls and what good would they do her question. It's hard to answer what good it would do her as I'm not aware of her personal circumstances., perhaps its a question Gordon Brown could have asked her. There might be people in her family who were undercut at work by Polish workers, this happened in the small business/self employed building/kitchen fitting/decorating game for example, it might have been friends or family who found themselves competing for jobs at the local supermarkets or cafes. Overall though theres sufficent polling to show that immigrants aren't the problem for most  people , its immigration policy that is a bigger issue and its perhaps ironic , and yes I know we have bigger fish to fry with corona virus, that since Brexit immigration policy doesnt seem to be as big as an issue that it was. The good that it might do her and others  is to at least be convinced that its the democratically elected government of her own state/country that makes the decisions on immigration not an unelected external body like the EU.


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## Gramsci (May 6, 2020)

belboid said:


> it is one of those quotes that you couldn't imagine 99% of black people saying. Which obviously doesnt _prove_ its reactionary, but it is very socially specific.






> But I’m frighted [of] losing our identity as well, you know our English, that’s what I’m frighted of as well.
> 
> We’ll never get England back to where it was, but I love being English and I don’t want to be a European



I agree 99% percent of Black British wouldn't say this. A lot would see it as harking back to to more racist time in London. Would not say they were English. British yes but not English as that has connotations of racism.

London isnt the same as the rest of the country. Migrant communities like in my area have built a community. Which was just as left behind as Duffys from 80s onwards.

Here its gentrification that is the issue now. And from certain middle class quarters the same kind of belittling goes on as Duffy gets. Opposing gentrification is akin to being a racist. Being afraid of change and not getting with the program of neo liberal progress. Being a "reactionary"

One of the things about my area Brixton is that the Black community quite often talk about issues using race which are class issues. Class issues are discussed as race issues. I find it a bit frustrating as have had to say my small town where I come from is just as deprived as Brixton area but its white working class. ( Its is Ive checked the deprivation stats.)

I think what Im saying is that underlying a lot of discussion are class issues. And that maybe someone from Duffy area has more in common with someone from mine than they might think.


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## belboid (May 6, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Lets  do the worth noting bit first .I'd caution as describing UKIP under Farage as fascist tbh or The Brexit Party. Populist yes but fascist nope. On the w/class elements most likely to go over to fascism yes and no imo. Firstly the 'class descriptions' in the piece I mentioned take a bit of deciphering and the shift to self employment /small business over the last decades especially distorts the classical Trotskyist analysis of that sector. However combine that with the fall in Trade Union membership and the increase in precarious work /the drive to the bottom and yes we have a vulnerable post industrial group wthin the working class. Winslow in his book on the EDL, the rise of the right makes a very compelling case for this although his conclusions about a way forward unfortunately arent as compelling. Yes I agree its only through collective struggle that its possible to change opinions or views on a mass or wider scale.


I agree with all that, and should point out I'm not calling UKIP et al fascist, although they and populist movements (eg with Peronism, more classically) aim themselves at the same groups. Not quite sure if the shift an employment has 'distorted' the classical analysis, or if it has simply made it worse, made a shift so that the section most amenable to populist politics is larger.  I suspect the latter. And such groups are, usually, pulled to the left by a collective struggle - as we agree - but in such a struggle that they will initially be excluded from, because of that social position - which is where we might not agree. 



> Immigration controls and what good would they do her question. It's hard to answer what good it would do her as I'm not aware of her personal circumstances., perhaps its a question Gordon Brown could have asked her. There might be people in her family who were undercut at work by Polish workers, this happened in the small business/self employed building/kitchen fitting/decorating game for example, it might have been friends or family who found themselves competing for jobs at the local supermarkets or cafes. Overall though theres sufficent polling to show that immigrants aren't the problem for most  people , its immigration policy that is a bigger issue and its perhaps ironic , and yes I know we have bigger fish to fry with corona virus, that since Brexit immigration policy doesnt seem to be as big as an issue that it was. The good that it might do her and others  is to at least be convinced that its the democratically elected government of her own state/country that makes the decisions on immigration not an unelected external body like the EU.


Well, the UK state took plenty of decisions re immigration that were not determined by the EU (eg most countries barred the first accession states from employment for several years), and I am sure we would agree that the main problem there was a lack of planning about how many were likely to come, and so there was extra pressure upon housing and some local services (tho most incomers were young people of working age so didn't really add _that _much pressure on the NHS or local schools at that time). Re competing with the self-employed builders etc, well, this is a classic example of why the petty-bourgeoisie are always going to be unreliable allies - for good and bad reason.  And, we shouldn't forget that most such small builders arent one person bands, they're small businesses where the owner/manager is a often profiteering shitbag desperate to get himself as much coin as possible by any means necessary.  Which isn't the fault of migrants, even if they do work for him. And if such people suddenly become illegal, then there will be an incentive to pay them even less and thus undercut even momre! Similar argument re competition at shops etc, for the shit work that most people try to avoid if at all possible. That migrants 'do the job the british dont want to' is way too simplistic, but there is more than an element of truth to it.

All in all, if the ability to bring in immigration controls just gives you a feeling of control without it being any real control, it wont do any good, and is more likely to lead to increased resentment against the (working class) individuals who have migrated.


----------



## The39thStep (May 6, 2020)

belboid said:


> I agree with all that, and should point out I'm not calling UKIP et al fascist, although they and populist movements (eg with Peronism, more classically) aim themselves at the same groups. Not quite sure if the shift an employment has 'distorted' the classical analysis, or if it has simply made it worse, made a shift so that the section most amenable to populist politics is larger.  I suspect the latter. And such groups are, usually, pulled to the left by a collective struggle - as we agree - but in such a struggle that they will initially be excluded from, because of that social position - which is where we might not agree.
> 
> 
> Well, the UK state took plenty of decisions re immigration that were not determined by the EU (eg most countries barred the first accession states from employment for several years), and I am sure we would agree that the main problem there was a lack of planning about how many were likely to come, and so there was extra pressure upon housing and some local services (tho most incomers were young people of working age so didn't really add _that _much pressure on the NHS or local schools at that time). Re competing with the self-employed builders etc, well, this is a classic example of why the petty-bourgeoisie are always going to be unreliable allies - for good and bad reason.  And, we shouldn't forget that most such small builders arent one person bands, they're small businesses where the owner/manager is a often profiteering shitbag desperate to get himself as much coin as possible by any means necessary.  Which isn't the fault of migrants, even if they do work for him. And if such people suddenly become illegal, then there will be an incentive to pay them even less and thus undercut even momre! Similar argument re competition at shops etc, for the shit work that most people try to avoid if at all possible. That migrants 'do the job the british dont want to' is way too simplistic, but there is more than an element of truth to it.
> ...



Ok. We seem to be on a similar chapter but not the same page on some of this so I'll just deal with the ones that are off the book. rather than pick at small bits. 
Self employed builders and small building firms  etc are the norm for house work and most kitchen/bathroom fits for flats/ offices, the biggest issue in that aspect of the building  trade is the lack of regulation  and the dismantling of trade unions in that sector. I've got loads of mates who work in that sector  and aside from a few twats when  theyve worked on union jobs they've joined the union . Most are Labour supporters or at least have been  and recognise a boss who is a profiteering shit bag and fuck off and work for someone else. I've collected money of these people for those out on strike or local community initiatives and they are no different from people i know who work on the cards in other jobs. The inlux of Polish labour whilst no doubt being good for those who wanted a cheaper price wasnt good for those who worked in that game. All it led to was a middle class smugness about how lazy the British working class was. My main point on this as it is in the retail , catering , hotel game and agriculture  is that an oversupply of labour gives the bosses the whip hand. 
Secondly noone is talking about people going illegal , there's enough 'illegality' in the cash in hand business as it is and that also includes immigrant based businesses  which have used cheap and illegal labour in horrifying conditions. You are right in that respect when you say there is an element of truth that 'migrants 'do the job the british dont want to' but is that the way we want a civilised labour market to work?
Thirdly the arguement of feeling in control without any control applies throughout most legislation in our lives to be honest. Most  surveys show people dont feel that the government or local government listen to people and that they dont have an impact on govt decsions and there is a feeling of disconnection from the democratic process .So in reality why should immigation control in that respect be any different.  Lastly I cant find any evidence to say that the proposed immigration bill post Brexit has led to increased resentment towards immigrants what so ever.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 6, 2020)

fakeplasticgirl said:


> I’m aware of that, and the BoD can go fuck themselves. But is it true that, out of 500 attendees. Greenstein et al were selected to ask questions/contribute? If it is, the MPs should have left. Not cool.


Questioners were randomly selected.



> Again, I’ll ask - if members of the Labour Party had been expelled for anti black racism, and then some MPs ended up discussing the future of the Labour Party with them on a Zoom call (regardless of who invited them), would you be ok with that?



Depends entirely on whether or not I thought they could make a valid contribution.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 6, 2020)

steveseagull said:


> Sir Keir's new task is to find a replacement who is not implicated in the racist centrist's plot to throw the election.  That should narrow the field somewhat.



As far as I recall, Starmer has no say in who becomes GS.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 6, 2020)

fakeplasticgirl said:


> Do they though? Not sure they do, outside the urban echo chamber
> 
> View attachment 210704



My 80 yr-old neighbour, who isn't on Urban, compared Starmer to Gaitskell yesterday. She didn't mean it nicely.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 6, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Lol. Leftism by rote. Welcome to marxism guys



belboid's a leftist? 

Fuck me, you learn something new every day!


----------



## The39thStep (May 6, 2020)

Gramsci said:


> I agree 99% percent of Black British wouldn't say this. A lot would see it as harking back to to more racist time in London. Would not say they were English. British yes but not English as that has connotations of racism.
> 
> London isnt the same as the rest of the country. Migrant communities like in my area have built a community. Which was just as left behind as Duffys from 80s onwards.
> 
> ...


I totally agree with this. Work and community are big influencers in integrated communities' its possible to have a shared present and future despite different histories. However without wanting to sound rude Brixton/London hasn't a monopoly on black communities experiences.  I've lived in Southall. Harlesden and Manchester and politically found differences in all those  areas and all sorts of prejudice and stereotyping of other black communities by members of other black communities whether it be Jamaicans and small islanders, Africans denying they were African because of the fear of ridicule. Zimbabweans having a go at  Rastas, Indian/Pakistan tensions, issues between people from the Caribbean and Asians and lets not forget the anti Somalian back lash. I hope you you'll agree with me when I say its how we get on together and how we build  geographical communities with a shared future.

Its also not the case she . Duffy, was on about black people Rochdale has both black British and a much larger Asian British  population, she was on about the Polish and the EU migration In my experience the identification of English/British isn't necessarily to do with connotations of racism its to do with the concept of the British Empire. You cant move in Rochdale for British Asian  taxi drives  flying the flag of St George when the World Cup or Euros are on despite the Council at one time trying to prohibit it.


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## killer b (May 6, 2020)

ViolentPanda said:


> Questioners were randomly selected.
> 
> 
> 
> Depends entirely on whether or not I thought they could make a valid contribution.


mate, come on.


----------



## SpookyFrank (May 7, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> These are the full statements Duffy makes on identity
> Muddled yes, conservative (small c) probably, reactionary?



I just had a quick shufti at Google maps and I can confirm that England is exactly where it has always been.


----------



## brogdale (May 7, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> These are the full statements Duffy makes on identity
> Muddled yes, conservative (small c) probably, reactionary?


Yes, I'd say that they are reactionary comments, if we concur that to be reactionary is to wish for a previous state of society that was in some way better than now.
There has to be a good chance that Duffy's sentiments were partly the result of what she had read/heard in various media sustained reactionary agenda?


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## redsquirrel (May 7, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Yes, I'd say that they are reactionary comments, if we concur that to be reactionary is to wish for a previous state of society that was in some way better than now.


If that is how you are defining reactionary then you are making a hell of a lot of people, both living and dead, reactionary. 
Such a position makes Loach's _Spirit of '45_ reactionary, it makes the Levellers reactionary.


----------



## brogdale (May 7, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> If that is how you are defining reactionary then you are making a hell of a lot of people, both living and dead, reactionary. Such a position makes Loach's _Spirit of '45_ reactionary.


Fair enough. Do you have another suggested definition of reactionary, then?


----------



## Deadstick 1944 (May 7, 2020)

belboid said:


> I agree with all that, and should point out I'm not calling UKIP et al fascist, although they and populist movements (eg with Peronism, more classically) aim themselves at the same groups. Not quite sure if the shift an employment has 'distorted' the classical analysis, or if it has simply made it worse, made a shift so that the section most amenable to populist politics is larger.  I suspect the latter. And such groups are, usually, pulled to the left by a collective struggle - as we agree - but in such a struggle that they will initially be excluded from, because of that social position - which is where we might not agree.
> 
> 
> Well, the UK state took plenty of decisions re immigration that were not determined by the EU (eg most countries barred the first accession states from employment for several years), and I am sure we would agree that the main problem there was a lack of planning about how many were likely to come, and so there was extra pressure upon housing and some local services (tho most incomers were young people of working age so didn't really add _that _much pressure on the NHS or local schools at that time). Re competing with the self-employed builders etc, well, this is a classic example of why the petty-bourgeoisie are always going to be unreliable allies - for good and bad reason.  And, we shouldn't forget that most such small builders arent one person bands, they're small businesses where the owner/manager is a often profiteering shitbag desperate to get himself as much coin as possible by any means necessary.  Which isn't the fault of migrants, even if they do work for him. And if such people suddenly become illegal, then there will be an incentive to pay them even less and thus undercut even momre! Similar argument re competition at shops etc, for the shit work that most people try to avoid if at all possible. That migrants 'do the job the british dont want to' is way too simplistic, but there is more than an element of truth to it.
> ...


Many of what we call the working class supporters of parties such as UKIP would have been supporters of Oswald Mosley back in the 30s,he and the BUF appealed to the same base instinct of these people,and they always have to have an enemy to push their vile credo.


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## Steel Icarus (May 7, 2020)

_these people_


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## Steel Icarus (May 7, 2020)

Great first post


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## D'wards (May 7, 2020)

Keir Starmer tweeted in support of Labour MP Nadia Whittome who claimed she was "sacked" from working in a care home because she spoke out about lack of PPE.

The care home manager released a statement saying she wasnt sacked, she was a volunteer who did 8 shifts over 2 months and as they had enough paid workers now they let all volunteers go.
He also said they had plenty of PPE, enough for three months and that her statement has caused upset and distress amongst the residents. 

She seems a decent person, but this is a sticky situation for her. The anti labour lot are using it as an example of Labour's shameless manipulation of facts for political gain.

I'd be more inclined to believe her but three sides to every story and all that. 

Keir getting a lot of heat on twitter over it


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## sunnysidedown (May 7, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Fair enough. Do you have another suggested definition of reactionary, then?



Is it worth seeing a possible difference between a sort of folk-reactionaryism (sorry), and what could be seen more as neo-rectionaryism, something that finds itself situated amongst current alt-right positions for instance? The former, as an example, could be seen as a reaction to any typical high street that once contained (arguably more useful) shops such as a baker, a butcher and a candlestick maker, and now instead contain a bookies, a booze shop and an overpriced hair salon. The latter could be seen as the development (or continuation) of a theoretical framework with political/social applications. 

Or is it all pretty much the same thing at the end of the day?


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## Deadstick 1944 (May 7, 2020)

S☼I said:


> _these people_


What i mean by that is, people who have been told all their lives that the British as a Nation,and i would say its more of an English phenomenon are exceptional,and the British Empire was a force for good,they have been subjected to this message all their lives,its almost part of their DNA,so populists like Farage and Johnson find it easy to tap into for political ends.


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## ViolentPanda (May 7, 2020)

killer b said:


> mate, come on.



fakeplasticgirl 's premise is basically "should Labour MPs speak to anti-semites like Tony Greenstein etc?". I don't see Greenstein or Walker as anti-semites. I see them as people - Jews, in fact - who said the "wrong" thing at the wrong time about Israel, I'd listen to what they had to say. If there were "racist" analogues to them, I'd do the same, and make my decision as to whether to cunt them off, by studying what they were saying in context.


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## killer b (May 7, 2020)

Greenstein and Walker are wreckers who've been responsible for huge amounts of damage to the Labour Party through their total refusal to shut the fuck up, regardless of the details of their misdemeanours. For that at least they shouldn't be welcome in Labour organising meetings - But just from a tactical point of view, because we know what happens when, inevitably, it leaks that this or that Labour MP or activist has met with them, any Labour MP or organiser with an ounce of sense should refuse to share space with them. 

The Labour Left have proved themselves inherently unserious over this - and absolutely fuck them for it.


----------



## The39thStep (May 7, 2020)

Deadstick 1944 said:


> *Many of what we call the working class supporters of parties such as UKIP would have been supporters of Oswald Mosley back in the 30s*,he and the BUF appealed to the same base instinct of these people,and they always have to have an enemy to push their vile credo.


 Aside from the fact that  Mosley if he was brought back to life wouldn't get into UKIP as he was pro European . What BUF policies do you think would attract these UKIP supporters. Would it be their promotion of national syndicalist economic system, their campaigns against  usury or their stance on 'the Jewish question' or possibly a combination?


----------



## Deadstick 1944 (May 7, 2020)

killer b said:


> Greenstein and Walker are wreckers who've been responsible for huge amounts of damage to the Labour Party through their total refusal to shut the fuck up, regardless of the details of their misdemeanours. For that at least they shouldn't be welcome in Labour organising meetings - But just from a tactical point of view, because we know what happens when, inevitably, it leaks that this or that Labour MP or activist has met with them, any Labour MP or organiser with an ounce of sense should refuse to share space with them.
> 
> The Labour Left have proved themselves inherently unserious over this - and absolutely fuck them for it.


Swift inquiry agreed into leak of Labour report on handling anti-Semitism    Did you not hear about the leak of a internal Labour party report into antisemitism? its clear the whole antisemitism carry on was a smear to attack Corbyn and anyone who supports the Palestinians,so called moderates within the party including some staffers were actively working against their own party and sabotaging the investigation into antisemitism to make Corbyn look bad, and also engaged in racist rhetoric against Dianne Abbott,they actually enabled the election of a Conservative Government,now thats one the biggest political scandals i can ever remember,its been an attack on the very Democracy we are told we live in,there has also been a near total news blackout on the matter,all those people in the media printed and broadcast who were attacking Corbyn as a racist 24/7 for years are nowhere to be found at the moment.


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## Deadstick 1944 (May 7, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Aside from the fact that  Mosley if he was brought back to life wouldn't get into UKIP as he was pro European . What BUF policies do you think would attract these UKIP supporters. Would it be their promotion of national syndicalist economic system, their campaigns against  usury or their stance on 'the Jewish question' or possibly a combination?


Its probably more base than that,it would be a sense of being English or British,just that base instinct,many of them don't think beyond that,they don't know or probably care about economic situation.


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## sunnysidedown (May 7, 2020)

Deadstick 1944 said:


> Its probably more base than that,it would be a sense of being English or British,just that base instinct,many of them don't think beyond that,they don't know or probably care about economic situation.



what do you suggest we do with _them_?


----------



## fakeplasticgirl (May 7, 2020)

ViolentPanda said:


> fakeplasticgirl 's premise is basically "should Labour MPs speak to anti-semites like Tony Greenstein etc?". I don't see Greenstein or Walker as anti-semites. I see them as people - Jews, in fact - who said the "wrong" thing at the wrong time about Israel, I'd listen to what they had to say. If there were "racist" analogues to them, I'd do the same, and make my decision as to whether to cunt them off, by studying what they were saying in context.


Walker said that Jews were “chief financiers of the sugar and slave trade”. You like to listen to that? The Klu Klux Klan said it too. 
I’m Jewish btw, but thanks for educating me on what is and isn’t antisemitic. 
and I’m sure it was just a total coincidence on the part of the organisers that they were picked to speak 🤣


----------



## Proper Tidy (May 7, 2020)

The problem with taking the view that any politics that looks back in any way instead of forward is reactionary is that, as we've also established, in lots of ways the w/c as a class has gone backwards, its power as a class etc. So any sort of movement to reinstate or renew working class power, labour power, collective bargaining etc that uses as its platform the idea that in these respects it was better at points in the past would be, by this definition, reactionary. Were the luddites reactionary for example?


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## Proper Tidy (May 7, 2020)

I also think underlying this is a sentiment or sort of subconscious assumption held by many that time is always some sort of forward march of progress and I just don't think that's true, not in any sort of level consistent way


----------



## The39thStep (May 7, 2020)

Deadstick 1944 said:


> Its probably more base than that,it would be a sense of being English or British,just that base instinct,many of them don't think beyond that,they don't know or probably care about economic situation.


Most people identify and see themselves as British, in England a growing number identify as English. This cuts across the political spectrum. I am also not sure why you seem to feel that UKIP supporters ( or indeed organisations on the right ) haven't the ability to engage in politics , to develop political theory or a set of political beliefs .Whether we like it or not they have punched above their weight in some working class areas in the last twenty years.


----------



## killer b (May 7, 2020)

Deadstick 1944 said:


> Swift inquiry agreed into leak of Labour report on handling anti-Semitism    Did you not hear about the leak of a internal Labour party report into antisemitism? its clear the whole antisemitism carry on was a smear to attack Corbyn and anyone who supports the Palestinians,so called moderates within the party including some staffers were actively working against their own party and sabotaging the investigation into antisemitism to make Corbyn look bad, and also engaged in racist rhetoric against Dianne Abbott,they actually enabled the election of a Conservative Government,now thats one the biggest political scandals i can ever remember,its been an attack on the very Democracy we are told we live in,there has also been a near total news blackout on the matter,all those people in the media printed and broadcast who were attacking Corbyn as a racist 24/7 for years are nowhere to be found at the moment.


piss off.


----------



## The39thStep (May 7, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> The problem with taking the view that any politics that looks back in any way instead of forward is reactionary is that, as we've also established, in lots of ways the w/c as a class has gone backwards, its power as a class etc. So any sort of movement to reinstate or renew working class power, labour power, collective bargaining etc that uses as its platform the idea that in these respects it was better at points in the past would be, by this definition, reactionary. Were the luddites reactionary for example?


Double time  Sundays and overtime at time and a half was especially reactionary


----------



## brogdale (May 7, 2020)

sunnysidedown said:


> Is it worth seeing a possible difference between a sort of folk-reactionaryism (sorry), and what could be seen more as neo-rectionaryism, something that finds itself situated amongst current alt-right positions for instance? The former, as an example, could be seen as a reaction to any typical high street that once contained (arguably more useful) shops such as a baker, a butcher and a candlestick maker, and now instead contain a bookies, a booze shop and an overpriced hair salon. The latter could be seen as the development (or continuation) of a theoretical framework with political/social applications.
> 
> Or is it all pretty much the same thing at the end of the day?


Depending on how you define the term, both can be regarded as reactionary but, as has been said already on the thread, there is an obvious distinction to be drawn between working class conservatism and seeing that exploited and politicised by hegemonic forces.

It's easily envisaged that in the giant SWOT analysis of neoliberalism, the question of how to harness/exploit the realisation that things aren't as good as they were was resolved by manufacturing consent for an imagined past that divides and retards progressive impulses.


----------



## Deadstick 1944 (May 7, 2020)

sunnysidedown said:


> what do you suggest we do with _them_?


All we can do is try and educate them,but many are lobotomized.


----------



## sunnysidedown (May 7, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Depending on how you define the term, both can be regarded as reactionary but, as has been said already on the thread, there is an obvious distinction to be drawn between working class conservatism and seeing that exploited and politicised by hegemonic forces.
> 
> It's easily envisaged that in the giant SWOT analysis of neoliberalism, the question of how to harness/exploit the realisation that things aren't as good as they were was resolved by manufacturing consent for an imagined past that divides and retards progressive impulses.



Are allotments conservative/reactionary? I always thought the IWCA model would have benefited from spending more time on WC estates with a fork and spade planting veg (perennials), knocking down garden fences (one small step towards the infinite allotment), and planting fruit trees (those trees would have been pretty big by now). 

personally I see this as progressive, but no doubt it would be seen as reactionary by many.


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## Deadstick 1944 (May 7, 2020)

killer b said:


> piss off.


Thats not very nice is it?how about answering some of the points i made.


----------



## killer b (May 7, 2020)

Deadstick 1944 said:


> Thats not very nice is it?how about answering some of the points i made.


I'm not having that argument anymore sorry. That there was people on the right of the party (and everywhere else) weaponising antisemitism against the left was obvious and self evident, but it didn't make the actual antisemitism not exist. Refusing to deal with it ruthlessly and fuck off idiots like Greenstein and Walker is part of the rich tapestry or reasons why the tories now have a masssive majority and we're all totally fucked. The points you made are one of the reasons the Labour left is over. Go fuck yourself.


----------



## sunnysidedown (May 7, 2020)

Deadstick 1944 said:


> All we can do is try and educate them,but many are lobotomized.



we could set up a special camp for _them_ to be educated in.


----------



## belboid (May 7, 2020)

fakeplasticgirl said:


> Walker said that Jews were “chief financiers of the sugar and slave trade”. You like to listen to that? The Klu Klux Klan said it too.
> I’m Jewish btw, but thanks for educating me on what is and isn’t antisemitic.
> and I’m sure it was just a total coincidence on the part of the organisers that they were picked to speak 🤣


well, she didn't actually say that, but it doesn't really matter because anything to do with Walker is all post-truth now anyway.


----------



## brogdale (May 7, 2020)

sunnysidedown said:


> Are allotments conservative/reactionary? I always thought the IWCA model would have benefited from spending more time on WC estates with a fork and spade planting veg (perennials), knocking down garden fences (one small step towards the infinite allotment), and planting fruit trees (those trees would have been pretty big by now).
> 
> personally I see this as progressive, but no doubt it would be seen as reactionary by many.


Sorry, don't follow how what you're suggesting is related to this discussion, tbh.


----------



## sunnysidedown (May 7, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Sorry, don't follow how what you're suggesting is related to this discussion, tbh.



I tend to wander a bit, sorry.


----------



## Proper Tidy (May 7, 2020)

Imo it depends what you're growing in the allotment


----------



## steveseagull (May 7, 2020)

So it is over.

Starmer has signalled to the Financial times that the party will be heading back to a poor quality Lib Dem tribute band, shitting all over those members who lent him their vote after he said we was going to take the socialist project forward.

What an unelectable mess. As usual, those that need a decent Labour party representing them will suffer.

The establishment protects itself again.


----------



## Deadstick 1944 (May 7, 2020)

killer b said:


> I'm not having that argument anymore sorry. That there was people on the right of the party (and everywhere else) weaponising antisemitism against the left was obvious and self evident, but it didn't make the actual antisemitism not exist. Refusing to deal with it ruthlessly and fuck off idiots like Greenstein and Walker is part of the rich tapestry or reasons why the tories now have a masssive majority and we're all totally fucked. The points you made are one of the reasons the Labour left is over. Go fuck yourself.


You don't get it do you? there was sabotage from the right inside the Labour party to destroy Corbyn and help the conservatives to win the election,and i am still waiting after all this time for someone to show me one case of antisemitism thats been shown to be a labour member,not just anonymous posts and tweets on social media,its been a smear from start to finish and to brand Corbyn antisemitic is grotesque,the man has spent his whole life fighting racism,so you go fuck yourself.


----------



## Proper Tidy (May 7, 2020)

Deadstick 1944 said:


> You don't get it do you? there was sabotage from the right inside the Labour party to destroy Corbyn and help the conservatives to win the election,and i am still waiting after all this time for someone to show me one case of antisemitism thats been shown to be a labour member,not just anonymous posts and tweets on social media,its been a smear from start to finish and to brand Corbyn antisemitic is grotesque,the man has spent his whole life fighting racism,so you go fuck yourself.



Killer b is right, fuck off knobhead


----------



## killer b (May 7, 2020)

Deadstick 1944 said:


> i am still waiting after all this time for someone to show me one case of antisemitism thats been shown to be a labour member,


ahahahhhhhhh jesus christ fuck off.


----------



## killer b (May 7, 2020)

it's over, and it's your fault you fucking tit.


----------



## Deadstick 1944 (May 7, 2020)

killer b said:


> ahahahhhhhhh jesus christ fuck off.


No answer then?


----------



## Jeremiah18.17 (May 7, 2020)

killer b said:


> Greenstein and Walker are wreckers who've been responsible for huge amounts of damage to the Labour Party through their total refusal to shut the fuck up, regardless of the details of their misdemeanours. For that at least they shouldn't be welcome in Labour organising meetings - But just from a tactical point of view, because we know what happens when, inevitably, it leaks that this or that Labour MP or activist has met with them, any Labour MP or organiser with an ounce of sense should refuse to share space with them.
> 
> The Labour Left have proved themselves inherently unserious over this - and absolutely fuck them for it.


Greenstein in particular can be classed as a wrecker, given the wreckage and destruction he left in just about every other organisation he was in on his long march through the British left (and I was in a few of them). Toxic individual seemingly with a monomaniac obsession with Israel.


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## Sue (May 7, 2020)

Deadstick 1944, this is all discussed (at length) in other threads. Why not have a read? You might even learn something...


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## Deadstick 1944 (May 7, 2020)

sunnysidedown said:


> we could set up a special camp for _them_ to be educated in.


No need for that,just try and break through the brainwashing thats reduced their brain to mush over many years of reading the Sun and Mail,its not going to be easy.


----------



## Proper Tidy (May 7, 2020)

Deadstick 1944 said:


> No need for that,just try and break through the brainwashing thats reduced their brain to mush over many years of reading the Sun and Mail,its not going to be easy.



Bellend


----------



## Deadstick 1944 (May 7, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Killer b is right, fuck off knobhead


Another one,anything else to say that makes any sense?


----------



## Proper Tidy (May 7, 2020)

Deadstick 1944 said:


> Another one,anything else to say that makes any sense?



Yeah you're a twat


----------



## killer b (May 7, 2020)

Sue said:


> Deadstick 1944, this is all discussed (at length) in other threads. Why not have a read? You might even learn something...


it's pointless giving clowns like this anything but the fuck off tbh. they've been shown the receipts countless times already, and look straight through them.


----------



## JimW (May 7, 2020)

Deadstick 1944 said:


> Another one,anything else to say that makes any sense?


Don't swan in long after the conversation you want has been had and expect more than short shrift. As Sue's said, we've had several threads on this already.


----------



## Deadstick 1944 (May 7, 2020)

JimW said:


> Don't swan in long after the conversation you want has been had and expect more than short shrift. As Sue's said, we've had several threads on this already.


OK as i am new on here i will have to check the threads.


----------



## Deadstick 1944 (May 7, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Yeah you're a twat


LOL!!! don't hold back clown.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (May 7, 2020)

steveseagull said:


> So it is over.
> 
> Starmer has signalled to the Financial times that the party will be heading back to a poor quality Lib Dem tribute band, shitting all over those members who lent him their vote after he said we was going to take the socialist project forward.



What has Starmer said specifically? The interview is behind a paywall when I try to read it


----------



## Smokeandsteam (May 7, 2020)

Deadstick 1944 said:


> OK as i am new on here i will have to check the threads.



Read the Labour & Anti Semism threads for a start. As you will read there has been a significant, detailed and long discussion here already


----------



## treelover (May 7, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Thirdly the arguement of feeling in control without any control applies throughout most legislation in our lives to be honest. Most  surveys show people dont feel that the government or local government listen to people and that they dont have an impact on govt decsions and there is a feeling of disconnection from the democratic process .So in reality why should immigation control in that respect be any different.  *Lastly I cant find any evidence to say that the proposed immigration bill post Brexit has led to increased resentment towards immigrants what so ever.*



Actually, i think it may be less with general society, 'things are more settled now' ,  'it will be easier for integration', etc, though the recent attacks on chinese people doesn't augur well.


----------



## treelover (May 7, 2020)

Jeremiah18.17 said:


> Greenstein in particular can be classed as a wrecker, given the wreckage and destruction he left in just about every other organisation he was in on his long march through the British left (and I was in a few of them). Toxic individual seemingly with a monomaniac obsession with Israel.



some of the sexist stuff he came out with at one of the first massive Momentum meetings here was appalling, some of the women(and men) were getting pretty angry about it.


----------



## The39thStep (May 7, 2020)

treelover said:


> Actually, i think it may be less with general society, 'things are more settled now' ,  'it will be easier for integration', etc, though the recent attacks on chinese people doesn't augur well.


Yes, I am not arguing that there isnt racism and prejudice far from it .


----------



## Sue (May 7, 2020)

killer b said:


> it's pointless giving clowns like this anything but the fuck off tbh. they've been shown the receipts countless times already, and look straight through them.


Ach, I'm an optimist...


----------



## redsquirrel (May 7, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Fair enough. Do you have another suggested definition of reactionary, then?


Err I'd need to think though that but a couple of points from the top of my head that I think might be relevant.

1) In their book on English nationalism Winlow, Hall and Treadlow outline the idea of 'mourning vs melancholy', that when you mourn for something you might regret the loss but you can move on, whereas in melancholy one is stuck, unable to move past the loss. I think you could work reactionary politics into that theory as a politics based on melancholy that aims to force a return to the past.

2) In _The Retreat from Class_ Ellen Meiksins Wood looks at the programme advocated by the Chartists in relation to their social conditions 


> then clearly Chartism was anachronistic in continuing to express economic grievances and to perceive class relations in political terms, at a time when that unity no longer prevailed. And yet this certainly does not mean that Chartist grievances were not ‘economic’ in character and origin, nor that the political concerns of the Chartists were not firmly rooted in their social conditions. What it does mean is that the Chartists, like all human beings, were historical creatures, and that history does not proceed by means of clean breaks or in discontinuous pieces, but by transformations of inherited realities, changes within continuities.





> the fact that Chartism, for all its backward-looking debt to radicalism, represents a transformation of traditional radical ideas in accordance with the realities of a growing industrial capitalism. It occupied a brief moment, during which the social conditions of capitalism required changes in older ideological traditions without yet clearly demanding their abandonment.


The Chartists, like others, in part looked backwards and articulated their programme as part of a _reaction_ to the past. Likewise the politics of the Levellers were partly based on the evocation of pre-Norman 'rights of the common man'. I guess in the strict literal sense this makes both groups 'reactionary' but I think it would be mistaken to say that either group had reactionary politics. 

Perhaps the best way to grasp whether a politics is reactionary or not is to look at how it interacts with struggle between classes, the Charists advocated a programme that was intended to advance the position of the working class, that that position was in part articulated in _reactionary_ terms does not make the politics of the programme reactionary.

Apologises in the above is not totally thought out, I am 'thinking out loud'


----------



## brogdale (May 7, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> Err I'd need to think though that but a couple of points from the top of my head that I think might be relevant.
> 
> 1) In their book on English nationalism Winlow, Hall and Treadlow outline the idea of 'mourning vs melancholy', that when you mourn for something you might regret the loss but you can move on, whereas in melancholy one is stuck, unable to move past the loss. I think you could work reactionary politics into that theory as a politics based on melancholy that aims to force a return to the past.
> 
> ...


No apologies needed at all; this, at first sight unpromising thread, has become very interesting & thought provoking.


----------



## Serge Forward (May 7, 2020)

As we live in capitalist society in definitely non revolutionary times, where reactionary ideas hold sway, then most working class people will hold reactionary views and ideas. That doesn't mean we write anyone off for rubbish views.


----------



## Gramsci (May 7, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> I totally agree with this. Work and community are big influencers in integrated communities' its possible to have a shared present and future despite different histories. However without wanting to sound rude Brixton/London hasn't a monopoly on black communities experiences.  I've lived in Southall. Harlesden and Manchester and politically found differences in all those  areas and all sorts of prejudice and stereotyping of other black communities by members of other black communities whether it be Jamaicans and small islanders, Africans denying they were African because of the fear of ridicule. Zimbabweans having a go at  Rastas, Indian/Pakistan tensions, issues between people from the Caribbean and Asians and lets not forget the anti Somalian back lash. I hope you you'll agree with me when I say its how we get on together and how we build  geographical communities with a shared future.
> 
> Its also not the case she . Duffy, was on about black people Rochdale has both black British and a much larger Asian British  population, she was on about the Polish and the EU migration In my experience the identification of English/British isn't necessarily to do with connotations of racism its to do with the concept of the British Empire. You cant move in Rochdale for British Asian  taxi drives  flying the flag of St George when the World Cup or Euros are on despite the Council at one time trying to prohibit it.



Get all these frictions in Brixton.

Duffy says she is frightened of losing her English Identity ( the term she uses)if stay in EU and England ( her word) will never get back to what it was. This is one of the reasons she gives in the video. She doesnt mention immigration when saying what she doesnt like about the EU in that video.

Looking at the video again she is not asked about what she means by English "identity". Or when it was better.

It putting this with fear of losing English identity that is something that rings alarm bells for me. My Black British friends I know would not want to go back to the 60s and 70s in London.

The difference between Duffy and the Black British in first paragraph is that no one is going to be knocking on Duffy door asking her to prove right to live in this country when they are retired. ( or to renew passport as friend of mine had to recently). That is losing ones identity. 

Racism was integral part of British Empire. Not sure what you mean. A few of the white Londoners I know occasionally winge about Commonwealth immigration but are resigned to that is how London is now. Anyway Commonweath freedom of movement was gradually restricted so its not an issue now.

Looking back on her interchange with Gordon Brown and most of what she said people in my neighbourhood would agree with - she was concerned about pensions and also student fees putting off poorer students.

Thing is it took several decades for Black and Asian people to be accepted here. Even now its questioned.


----------



## belboid (May 8, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Ok. We seem to be on a similar chapter but not the same page on some of this so I'll just deal with the ones that are off the book. rather than pick at small bits.
> Self employed builders and small building firms  etc are the norm for house work and most kitchen/bathroom fits for flats/ offices, the biggest issue in that aspect of the building  trade is the lack of regulation  and the dismantling of trade unions in that sector. I've got loads of mates who work in that sector  and aside from a few twats when  theyve worked on union jobs they've joined the union . Most are Labour supporters or at least have been  and recognise a boss who is a profiteering shit bag and fuck off and work for someone else. I've collected money of these people for those out on strike or local community initiatives and they are no different from people i know who work on the cards in other jobs. The inlux of Polish labour whilst no doubt being good for those who wanted a cheaper price wasnt good for those who worked in that game. All it led to was a middle class smugness about how lazy the British working class was. My main point on this as it is in the retail , catering , hotel game and agriculture  is that an oversupply of labour gives the bosses the whip hand.
> Secondly noone is talking about people going illegal , there's enough 'illegality' in the cash in hand business as it is and that also includes immigrant based businesses  which have used cheap and illegal labour in horrifying conditions. You are right in that respect when you say there is an element of truth that 'migrants 'do the job the british dont want to' but is that the way we want a civilised labour market to work?
> Thirdly the arguement of feeling in control without any control applies throughout most legislation in our lives to be honest. Most  surveys show people dont feel that the government or local government listen to people and that they dont have an impact on govt decsions and there is a feeling of disconnection from the democratic process .So in reality why should immigation control in that respect be any different.  Lastly I cant find any evidence to say that the proposed immigration bill post Brexit has led to increased resentment towards immigrants what so ever.


Apologies for the delay in reply. I'd agree, were on the same book, maybe different translations tho 

Lets take your points in reverse:  the last one ins plain wrong. Introducing a minimum wage, the right to abortion, the right to form unions gives some clear and direct control, they have clear and direct impact upon workers' lives.  Immigration controls don't do that.  Its possible that such controls would open up a need for further measures to be taken to mitigate the impact of those controls (iyswim), but if we can turn _those _measures to our advantage, then we could do it without the need for immigration controls anyway. As to there being no noticeable increase in resentment to foreigners, well, I'm a bit gobsmacked, tbh. The evidence from EU nationals living here is precisely the opposite, ever since the referendum there has been increased abuse towards them, especially eastern europeans. Discrimination in housing and employment is legitimised, the hostile environment extended. And it doesn't just affect EU nationals, abuse thrown at black and asian people has also increased.

Secondly, it is impossible to talk of immigration controls without recognising the effect they have upon illegal working. We know, indeed you say, there are plenty of people here from India, China, etc etc who work here illegally, and as long as the rewards are great enough, there'll now be people from all over the EU doing the same too.  And we both know that such illegal working is lower paid, worse conditions, and far, far, harder to organise. Thus immigration controls act to increase the numbers working illegally, and undercutting 'locals' even more.

And, on the building trade and it's reliance upon small firms...It's true that they are very much in the weakest position for skilled and 'semi-skilled' workers, and most at risk from changes on the economy and workforce. Its a notoriously feast or famine trade, highly dependent upon how the rest of the economy is doing. Its a shitty position to be in, which is why people in those groups are the workers most prone to reactionary ideas, tuppence ha'penny turning on tuppence. The people I know in the trade (a BIL and a nephew) would agree there has been a shift from their colleagues being pro-labour to labourish or none of 'em, to more openly reactionary (not the same people, i should point out, but people doing the same job). I'm not sure what protections could be put in place - stricter enforcement around qualifications and certifications would be a start, I'm sure there must be several other things too. But even then, the trade as a whole will always be up and down and small businesses are always the hardest to unionise and organise. Its been the case since old Karl was writing himself, and what would be most useful to them hasn't changed since then - a strong workers movement that they can almost 'ride on the back of.'  That's not a great argument to make with people in that boat, I know, but where there are sectional issues amongst the class, we can't simply go at the pace of the most conservative.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (May 9, 2020)

When Starmer ran for leadership he claimed he would support rent controls. So given a recent poll showing 74% of the public also support them and millions of people at risk of unemployment what have labour announced? Why, give people longer to pay their arrears of course! Fucking useless.









						Labour urges extended eviction ban amid risk of huge job losses
					

Five-point plan to protect renters comes as poll shows 1.7 million people fear unemployment




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## NoXion (May 9, 2020)

In a shocking turn of events, a QC has turned out to be an establishment cocksucker. "Rent controls? Oh my dear old fellow don't be _naive_, we can't have hard-working landlords going without, what what", simpered Keir before signing off on the deaths of thousands of workers. "We all must make sacrifices for the economy," he continued with a carefully choreographed brave face for the cameras. Keir ignored the anguished moaning and desperate screaming that echoed in his head. After all, it's not like he was lining them up against a wall and personally shooting them, like those dreadful lefties are wont to do. No blood on _his_ hands, he kept reminding himself.

I fucking loathe that cunt.


----------



## steveseagull (May 9, 2020)

labour: back to being the party for landlords. Depressing but highly predictable considering the spivs and chancers on the front bench.


----------



## Chilli.s (May 9, 2020)

I hear he is actually the fruits of an illicit relationship between Margaret Thatcher and Tony Blair, Tony was forced, it was early in his career, he did it to get ahead. So, adopted out to a safe home counties family young Keir was always destined for the top, it's in his slightly blue blood. Never mind, when he's made the LP even less likely to ever get a majority again, he'll get a good book out and stipend jobs plus the speaking at leadership training will mean he'll never have to offend me again.


----------



## SpookyFrank (May 9, 2020)

NoXion said:


> I fucking loathe that cunt.



Good to see someone around here has the correct opinion of Starmer.


----------



## Deadstick 1944 (May 9, 2020)

steveseagull said:


> labour: back to being the party for landlords. Depressing but highly predictable considering the spivs and chancers on the front bench.


I am waiting to see what he is going to do about those so called moderates and party staffers who worked overtime to sabotage their own party,as shown by the leak into the anti semitism report,that resulted in Bozo getting a big majority,total vermin.


----------



## sleaterkinney (May 9, 2020)

steveseagull said:


> labour: back to being the party for landlords. Depressing but highly predictable considering the spivs and chancers on the front bench.


Wasn’t it Corbyns policy at the start?


----------



## Jeff Robinson (May 9, 2020)




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## platinumsage (May 9, 2020)

Serge Forward said:


> As we live in capitalist society in definitely non revolutionary times, where reactionary ideas hold sway, then most working class people will hold reactionary views and ideas. That doesn't mean we write anyone off for rubbish views.



Brainwashed sheeple who will be saved by a rigorous re-education programme.


----------



## Shechemite (May 9, 2020)

new member eh?


Deadstick 1944 said:


> I am waiting to see what he is going to do about those so called moderates and party staffers who worked overtime to sabotage their own party,as shown by the leak into the anti semitism report,that resulted in Bozo getting a big majority,total vermin.


----------



## Proper Tidy (May 9, 2020)

I used to wonder how comintern organisations still managed to recruit and sustain long after JS and '56 but I don't any more


----------



## yield (May 9, 2020)

There's some thread on confirmation bias & heuristics that needs starting.

Always used to think that brainwashing was a joke but now I'm not so sure tbh.


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## Deadstick 1944 (May 9, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> new member eh?


New on this forum if thats what you mean.


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## Deadstick 1944 (May 9, 2020)

yield said:


> There's some thread on confirmation bias & heuristics that needs starting.
> 
> Always used to think that brainwashing was a joke but now I'm not so sure tbh.


Give me control of the Media and i will turn the population of any Country into a herd of pigs.
                                    [ quote]      Joseph Geobbels.


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## Jeff Robinson (May 9, 2020)

It’s hard to imagine social conditions more conducive to winning public support for a program of radical wealth redistribution than the current crisis is and Starmer and co aren’t even prepared to propose that private landlords - blood sucking parasites who add nothing of value to the world - pay a penny. I knew his leadership would see a significant shift to the right in Labour policy but I’m still surprised how fast and obvious the transition has been.


----------



## Proper Tidy (May 9, 2020)

Deadstick 1944 said:


> Give me control of the Media and i will turn the population of any Country into a herd of pigs.
> [ quote]      Joseph Geobbels.



So how come, against the grain, you are immune to the overwhelming propaganda that turns your neighbours and the people around you into sheep with 'brains of mush', what's your secret pal, what makes you better than everybody else and how does this self declared superiority fit in with the old socialism


----------



## AmateurAgitator (May 9, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> So how come, against the grain, you are immune to the overwhelming propaganda that turns your neighbours and the people around you into sheep with 'brains of mush', what's your secret pal, what makes you better than everybody else and how does this self declared superiority fit in with the old socialism


'Mate' theres more to life than Keir Starmer.


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## Deadstick 1944 (May 9, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> So how come, against the grain, you are immune to the overwhelming propaganda that turns your neighbours and the people around you into sheep with 'brains of mush', what's your secret pal, what makes you better than everybody else and how does this self declared superiority fit in with the old socialism


There are millions like me,they voted Labour a the last election,my secret is i don't read the Sun and the other tripe.


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## Proper Tidy (May 9, 2020)

Count Cuckula said:


> 'Mate' theres more to life than Keir Starmer.



You don't ever have much of a clue what's going on do you


----------



## Proper Tidy (May 9, 2020)

Deadstick 1944 said:


> There are millions like me,they voted Labour a the last election,my secret is i don't read the Sun and the other tripe.



Your secret is shared by the majority though. Sun circulation is 1.2m and falling and in 2017 30% of them voted labour. Maybe what newspapers people read isn't as important as you think it is


----------



## Deadstick 1944 (May 9, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Your secret is shared by the majority though. Sun circulation is 1.2m and falling and in 2017 30% of them voted labour. Maybe what newspapers people read isn't as important as you think it is


Its important enough to decide an election,a million votes even less can do that,the Sun and mail are poison and a threat to democracy.


----------



## killer b (May 9, 2020)

oh god


----------



## Proper Tidy (May 9, 2020)

Deadstick 1944 said:


> Its important enough to decide an election,a million votes even less can do that,the Sun and mail are poison and a threat to democracy.



Ok you obviously firmly believe this, I think its pretty insulting to every day people to hold a view that they are incapable of thinking or drawing from their own experiences and instead just act in the way a newspaper tells them but there we are


----------



## Deadstick 1944 (May 9, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Ok you obviously firmly believe this, I think its pretty insulting to every day people to hold a view that they are incapable of thinking or drawing from their own experiences and instead just act in the way a newspaper tells them but there we are


Many have been brainwashed over many years,that level of propaganda works with some people,i remember just before the election the news were doing Vox pops,they spoke to a single mother getting food in a food bank,she said she was voting Consevative because she liked Bozo Johnson,there is no cure for that sort of stupid,there were many others in the so called red wall areas,sorry to say they were convinced to vote against their own interests,that goes beyond stupid.


----------



## Proper Tidy (May 9, 2020)

Deadstick 1944 said:


> Many have been brainwashed over many years,that level of propaganda works with some people,i remember just before the election the news were doing Vox pops,they spoke to a single mother getting food in a food bank,she said she was voting Consevative because she liked Bozo Johnson,there is no cure for that sort of stupid,there were many others in the so called red wall areas,sorry to say they were convinced to vote against their own interests,that goes beyond stupid.



Amazing really that any leftwing governments have ever been elected really, much less revolutions and stuff


----------



## William of Walworth (May 9, 2020)

Apologies if I've missed something really obvious, but could someone please put up a link explaining Starmer's change of policy on housing?
Rants on this thread are great, and I'm sure I'd agree with them, but I don't yet know the basis .....
I've just been doing some failed googling, but clearly pretty incompetently


----------



## Deadstick 1944 (May 9, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Amazing really that any leftwing governments have ever been elected really, much less revolutions and stuff


I voted for Blair first time round,then it became clear later he was a war criminal and really a neo liberal Conservative,i didn't vote again until Corbyn became leader and it looked like a real change was possible,then the Establishment got to work and destroyed him,including some in his own party,and i will never forgive them for that.


----------



## ddraig (May 9, 2020)




----------



## Serge Forward (May 9, 2020)

platinumsage said:


> Brainwashed sheeple who will be saved by a rigorous re-education programme.


Not really. The dominant ideas in any society will reflect economic and social realities of that society. What it boils down to is ruling class ideas are the default and mainstream ideas. Rather than brainwashed, we are products of our society. Some workers break with those ideas, usually by coming into conflict with aspects of the system - hassle at work, off the landlord, strikes, repression from the cops, discrimination. The more workers break with those ideas, the less workers talk reactionary garbage.


----------



## Gramsci (May 10, 2020)

William of Walworth said:


> Apologies if I've missed something really obvious, but could someone please put up a link explaining Starmer's change of policy on housing?
> Rants on this thread are great, and I'm sure I'd agree with them, but I don't yet know the basis .....
> I've just been doing some failed googling, but clearly pretty incompetently



I did a post explaining all this - post 319 - on this thread with all the links to relevant articles. If u mean about rent during the lockdown.


----------



## Gramsci (May 10, 2020)

sleaterkinney said:


> Wasn’t it Corbyns policy at the start?



See my post 319 on this thread. Starmer changed position of Labour party on rent payment during the pandemic/ lockdown.


----------



## sleaterkinney (May 10, 2020)

Gramsci said:


> See my post 319 on this thread. Starmer changed position of Labour party on rent payment during the pandemic/ lockdown.


Back to what Corbyn had originally, yes?


----------



## belboid (May 10, 2020)

sleaterkinney said:


> Back to what Corbyn had originally, yes?


yes, but which was also quite quickly changed once the extent of the issue became clear.


----------



## elbows (May 10, 2020)

Starmer on the BBC after the Johnson speech was somewhat infuriating. Instead of focusing on safety for workers, his main criticism of that side of things was the lack of advanced notice. And when it came to the plan, he wanted to have his cake and eat it by supporting a plan based on the state of infection etc, but then wanting dates.


----------



## gosub (May 10, 2020)

elbows said:


> Starmer on the BBC after the Johnson speech was somewhat infuriating. Instead of focusing on safety for workers, his main criticism of that side of things was the lack of advanced notice. And when it came to the plan, he wanted to have his cake and eat it by supporting a plan based on the state of infection etc, but then wanting dates.



Didn't hear it.but  safety of workers is intrinsic to lack of notice.  Certain to be a some amount of chaos tomorrow and it will probably take til next Sunday  to bed in.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (May 10, 2020)

how the bleeding hell are people supposed to go back to work tomorrow with public transport operators given about 12 hours' notice?


----------



## elbows (May 11, 2020)

Johnson didnt actually say Monday, he said this week. The new guidelines for companies arent even published yet and there is supposed to be various hideous detail out during the week.

"And the first step is a change of emphasis that we hope that people will act on this week."

Its psychological stuff, trying to evolve the sense of what is the next new normal, and trying to ramp up various pressures on certain workers to return to work. In reality I'm sure that they know its going to be a long process. Psychological stuff they need to indulge in because neither they or the virus are in sole control of the timetable. The attitude of the masses towards the pandemic, risks to themselves or others, and a bunch of other stuff will also dictate the reality of how lockdown relaxes, at what pace, and what the new normals are along the way. I dont want opposition figures, unions etc to deliver criticisms that contain implicit acceptance of certain aspects of the governments position and message, and I feel a bit like thats what they've done by going for a 'he's only given people 12 hours notice' criticism this evening. I'd have been happier if they just said Monday was absurd and acted like even Johnson couldnt possibly have meant that! Keep the R below 1 and the Ridicule above 1.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (May 11, 2020)

Labour shadow housing minister Thangam Debonaire meeting with the National Residential Landlord Association before the announcement of the policy.



Meanwhile ACORN the community union has described the policy as ‘a betrayal of private tenants and a capitulation to the landlord lobby’.


----------



## teqniq (May 11, 2020)

Starmer out of step with public opinion it would seem:


----------



## DotCommunist (May 11, 2020)

.


----------



## elbows (May 11, 2020)

Got a bit more detail today that explains the context of the situation that lead to my previous complaint about the media & opposition figures treating the return to work stuff as something that should have started on Monday. Apparently there was a press release some hours before Johnson spoke yesterday, and that mentioned Monday. So even though Johnson only said this week in his speech, the earlier detail had already been picked up on by Starmer, unions and the media. Anyway, apparently it says Wednesday in todays document. The BBC news showed Starmer asking Johnson questions about this in parliament earlier, but didnt show Johnsons response.


----------



## Whagwan (May 15, 2020)

I think somebody needs to educate Thangam on the history of the Labour party. 

FFS, Shadow Housing Minister to the right of Joe Biden on her brief.


----------



## ska invita (May 27, 2020)

David Evans... whos that then? Three random tweets in a row if you search for his name


----------



## Sprocket. (May 28, 2020)

David Evans, who has been quoted as saying the Labour Party does not need Trade Unions in the future!


----------



## William of Walworth (May 28, 2020)

I'd like some more information about this one.
'David Evans' is a bit of a John Jones-type name though ..... 
Other links?
Cheers


----------



## fieryjack (May 29, 2020)

William of Walworth said:


> I'd like some more information about this one.
> 'David Evans' is a bit of a John Jones-type name though .....
> Other links?
> Cheers


it's fairly easy to dig into it. Google sorts it right out: " David Evans general secretary"

Summary: not ideal.


----------



## William of Walworth (May 29, 2020)

fieryjack : cheers for that, I should have thought of this myself  (cider/knackeredness last night).

The top pieces in that Google search are generally pro-Evans
Such as this Labour List article
But it does link to another LL article reporting what Matt Wrack (FBU) said :




			
				Labour List said:
			
		

> Matt Wrack – the left-wing leader of the party-affiliated FBU, which has a seat on the NEC and on the panel responsible for longlisting and shortlisting – has said Evans is “likely to be an extremely divisive figure who will antagonise Labour Party members and the trade unions”.
> The FBU general secretary said : “David Evans has attacked the reputation of hard-working Labour Party activists, authored a report which called for representative democracy in the party to be abolished, and played a key role in the party in the Tony Blair era when trade unions were sidelined”.
> Wrack added: “Keir Starmer rightly said when running for leader that he would unite the party. Now he must ensure that a factional figure like Evans does not become general secretary.
> “We need someone who believes in the power of all of our movement, including the membership and trade unions. The trade unions were central to the creation of the Labour Party, we will not be silenced once again.”



Will do some proper digging later.


----------



## Shechemite (Jun 5, 2020)

wankers Exclusive: Welfare should reflect ‘what you put in’ to tackle public mistrust, says Labour’s shadow DWP secretary


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jun 5, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> wankers Exclusive: Welfare should reflect ‘what you put in’ to tackle public mistrust, says Labour’s shadow DWP secretary



What’s wrong with the contributory system? What’s wrong with the principle that the more people have paid in the more they take out? How do you build consent and support for a universal system without it?

It’s also important to read what Reynolds actually said as opposed to the headline

ETA: let’s say you are one of the thousands of workers in the automative industry about to be laid off. You’ve paid in a lot but you fall of a massive financial cliff once you go on benefits. The principle of universalism is correct but there has to be some form of recognition of contribution unless you want to cede the debate to the right wing.


----------



## mauvais (Jun 5, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> What’s wrong with the principle that the more people have paid in the more they take out?


If you really believe this, why bother pooling it in the first place?


----------



## belboid (Jun 5, 2020)

Welfare should never be merely an insurance scheme, which is effectively what he’s talking about. Hard to think of a better way to distinguish between the deserving poor and scroungers.


----------



## mauvais (Jun 5, 2020)

Even typical insurance doesn't reflect what you put in, beyond nothing vs something.


----------



## Streathamite (Jun 5, 2020)

Sprocket. said:


> David Evans, who has been quoted as saying the Labour Party does not need Trade Unions in the future!


Aaargjhh!
Another Blairite fuckwit as gen sec!


----------



## Brainaddict (Jun 5, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> What’s wrong with the contributory system? What’s wrong with the principle that the more people have paid in the more they take out? How do you build consent and support for a universal system without it?
> 
> It’s also important to read what Reynolds actually said as opposed to the headline
> 
> ETA: let’s say you are one of the thousands of workers in the automative industry about to be laid off. You’ve paid in a lot but you fall of a massive financial cliff once you go on benefits. The principle of universalism is correct but there has to be some form of recognition of contribution unless you want to cede the debate to the right wing.


From each according to their ability, to each according to their ability?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jun 5, 2020)

belboid said:


> Welfare should never be merely an insurance scheme, which is effectively what he’s talking about. Hard to think of a better way to distinguish between the deserving poor and scroungers.



Hard to think of a better way to target support to those least in need of it.


----------



## ska invita (Jun 5, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> What’s wrong with the contributory system? What’s wrong with the principle that the more people have paid in the more they take out? How do you build consent and support for a universal system without it?
> 
> It’s also important to read what Reynolds actually said as opposed to the headline
> 
> ETA: let’s say you are one of the thousands of workers in the automative industry about to be laid off. You’ve paid in a lot but you fall of a massive financial cliff once you go on benefits. The principle of universalism is correct but there has to be some form of recognition of contribution unless you want to cede the debate to the right wing.


i have sympathy with this
the level should be a flat and higher one, but if i am right in understanding that he's saying increase the level of support for those who have paid more taxes over the years, at least that's an increase in benefits overall - better than nothing

the reality today is automative workers who have paid in a lot will be tripped up and sanctioned within a fortnight


----------



## treelover (Jun 5, 2020)

Whether long term it is the right thing to do, this wasn't the time, with millions more about to join the dole que and the right/treasury looking for saving (not sure if it, Reynaulds plan, will be extra expenditure) he has basically created a new opening for opponents of a decent social security system.


----------



## ska invita (Jun 5, 2020)

treelover said:


> he has basically created a new opening for opponents of a decent social security system.


I dont really see it treelover - no one is listening to him anyway, and even if they were so what, and above all Tories have the majority to do what they will with the system for years to come
I think its only of interest as a sign of what ideas are floating around within Starmers zone - beyond that its meaningless.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jun 5, 2020)

ska invita said:


> I dont really see it treelover - no one is listening to him anyway, and even if they were so what, and above all Tories have the majority to do what they will with the system for years to come
> I think its only of interest as a sign of what ideas are floating around within Starmers zone - beyond that its meaningless.



I agree except I wouldn't really call this an 'idea' so much as the space where an idea should be.


----------



## ska invita (Jun 5, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> I agree except I wouldn't really call this an 'idea' so much as the space where an idea should be.


isnt this the kind of thing they do in places like Germany? I dont really know about that, but it sounds familiar-ish


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Jun 5, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> wankers Exclusive: Welfare should reflect ‘what you put in’ to tackle public mistrust, says Labour’s shadow DWP secretary



Fuck me if that's the best they can come up with and then have posters on here thinking it's a good idea then we truly are fucked.


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 5, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> wankers Exclusive: Welfare should reflect ‘what you put in’ to tackle public mistrust, says Labour’s shadow DWP secretary



I have a couple of friends , single parents and working, who both said to me that this pandemic would mean a lot more people claiming UC. These people would come face to face with hoops one has to go through to get it.

This article and parts of the interview I read remind me of New Labour. I remember in the early days they had a go at the prime example of those who hadn't paid in- single parents.

This strategy does not work. However hard Labour try to be on benefit "scroungers" the Tories are going to do it better.

On this mistrust he alleges. I did a working class job before pandemic. The guys I work with dropped the scrounger stuff after the last economic crisis when "moral hazard" was ditched and the bankers got government handouts. Whilst we got austerity.

The whole "what you put in" and working hard stuff does not wash now.

So its a mistake to go on about it now.

As my two friends above said people now trying to claim will come up against all the unpleasantly class based rules about no more than two children, rent caps etc.

Thing is I know a several people on UC- they are or were pre pandemic all working. Topping up income due to high cost of living in London.

I notice in the  related interview Reynolds has warm words about the people he met in the City.

What he could have done is said post pandemic employers should be made to pay proper decent living wages so people don't have to top up with benefits.

Im sure his liberal friends in the City would love an updated benefit system that helps prop up a low wage economy. And probably think they are being nice and liberal for wanting that.


----------



## pseudonarcissus (Jun 5, 2020)

ska invita said:


> the reality today is automative workers who have paid in a lot will be tripped up and sanctioned within a fortnight


I'm not sure about that, I received contribution based JSA for 11 weeks (not that 75 quid a week will pay the mortgage, but it's a help). In that period I only need apply for jobs in the same sort of salary range as the job I'l lost....then I would have been sanctioned. I hope UC is similar.


----------



## ska invita (Jun 5, 2020)

pseudonarcissus said:


> I'm not sure about that, I received contribution based JSA for 11 weeks (not that 75 quid a week will pay the mortgage, but it's a help). In that period I only need apply for jobs in the same sort of salary range as the job I'l lost....then I would have been sanctioned. I hope UC is similar.


well yes, its true that Covid has temporarily changed the system, but my point stands based on the trail of dead


----------



## starfish (Jun 5, 2020)

I like him. Hes a Charles Kennedy that the English could get behind.


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 5, 2020)

Here is Reynolds on his time as junior minister ( shadow City minister):



> I want a radical Labour, especially on things like child poverty and people’s pensions and on the economy… But I want that to be credible,” he explains. “In the City brief we met all kinds of people who were basically centre-left, social democrats or democratic socialist, whatever label you want to use – they were socially liberal. They saw a role for the state, they certainly didn’t want the levels of homelessness we have in the UK or food bank dependency. We have to use those people as allies.”











						Jonathan Reynolds interview: “Universal Credit is predicated on a Victorian attitude to poor people. The very ethos of it is mean'
					

With the country heading towards a severe recession, the social security system is facing unprecedented pressure. Shadow work and pensions secretar...




					www.politicshome.com
				




I dont think capitalism is going away soon but really this got to me.

  Its the City that caused the last economic crisis.

And this is what he has got to say about it- A credible Labour party needs to see these people as allies.

Of course they see a role for the State. To take care of the problems around inequality the system they work in causes.


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Jun 5, 2020)

Gramsci said:


> Here is Reynolds on his time as junior minister ( shadow City minister):
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's very much New Labour isn't it? I can see why they're turning to it again because they've just suffered a crushing electoral defeat and new labour policies are what got them elected three times in a row. It's not going to work this time round though. With a public now even more in favour of radical policies they're lacking courage and ideas.


----------



## Humberto (Jun 5, 2020)

Unless they are going to fully go for it though (e.g. reordering of society to improve the conditions of the majority and bring equality and build mass support for it) then they _do _have to make allies there. You appease and reassure the rich or be irrelevant. That's what the Labour Party is best at.


----------



## D'wards (Jun 8, 2020)

Keir on LBC now taking phone calls. 

He's coming across well - personable with a sense of humour.

He's supporting the removal of the Bristol statue (but not in that way obvs)


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jun 14, 2020)

Back to the old days of vaguely supporting both authoritarianism and "protest after filling out the appropriate forms as long as nothing to exciting happens during the protest and the government's still supported" (it's a mouthful but surely a winning strategy).


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jun 14, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> Back to the old days of vaguely supporting both authoritarianism and "protest after filling out the appropriate forms as long as nothing to exciting happens during the protest and the government's still supported" (it's a mouthful but surely a winning strategy).




Not to mention the old classic 'jumping on any passing bandwagon if you think there's a favourable headline in the right wing press in it for you.'


----------



## agricola (Jun 14, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> Back to the old days of vaguely supporting both authoritarianism and "protest after filling out the appropriate forms as long as nothing to exciting happens during the protest and the government's still supported" (it's a mouthful but surely a winning strategy).




Going to be a great bit of legislation that; one sentence devoted to banging up people who damage memorials followed by page after page of exemptions for developers.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jun 14, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> Back to the old days of vaguely supporting both authoritarianism and "protest after filling out the appropriate forms as long as nothing to exciting happens during the protest and the government's still supported" (it's a mouthful but surely a winning strategy).




Starmer's tenure thus far has managed, and this is quite an achievement, to fall short of my expectations. I was expecting a couple of token gestures in the direction of social democratic policies, some kind of bare minimum gesture towards the party unity he was elected on a promise of creating. I was also expecting his innate bootlicking tendencies to be toned down a bit, particularly in the context of mass demonstrations against police racism. Nope, none of that. It's 'difficult third term' era Tony Blair all the way down.

Anyone not familliar with Starmer's conduct as DPP after the Mark Duggan riots, please have a read up on that. Short version: man's a cunt.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 14, 2020)

Sir Quiff love jails, jailing people and the whole apparatus. Loves it. A proper servant to the machine of 'justice', the cunt.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jun 14, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> Starmer's tenure thus far has managed, and this is quite an achievement, to fall short of my expectations. I was expecting a couple of token gestures in the direction of social democratic policies, some kind of bare minimum gesture towards the party unity he was elected on a promise of creating. I was also expecting his innate bootlicking tendencies to be toned down a bit, particularly in the context of mass demonstrations against police racism. Nope, none of that. It's 'difficult third term' era Tony Blair all the way down.
> 
> Anyone not familliar with Starmer's conduct as DPP after the Mark Duggan riots, please have a read up on that. Short version: man's a cunt.



It's just amazing, I wasn't the biggest Corbyn fan but I could identify the reasons why he spoke to people and liked his policies and direction he was pushing things.

It's like Keir and the rest have learned nothing from the last few years, determined centrism and trying to appease the mail readers all the way down. Just like Corbyns biggest critics always wanted.

Even Andy Burnham seemed to learn that yes the labour voter wants left policies and he was the peak of shitness in the 2015 leadership race.


----------



## co-op (Jun 14, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> Even Andy Burnham seemed to learn that yes the labour voter wants left policies and he was the peak of shitness in the 2015 leadership race.



Needs a poll really but surely Liz Kendall? Although Burnham launched his campaign at the HQ of Ernst & Young so maybe you're right.


----------



## agricola (Jun 14, 2020)

co-op said:


> Needs a poll really but surely Liz Kendall? Although Burnham launched his campaign at the HQ of Ernst & Young so maybe you're right.



Your first bit was correct - Burnham was terrible but he didn't pick John Woodcock to be his campaign manager.


----------



## co-op (Jun 15, 2020)

agricola said:


> Your first bit was correct - Burnham was terrible but he didn't pick John Woodcock to be his campaign manager.




That's a juicy detail that had slipped my mind. There were rumours in the paper that Liz and Creepy were a Thing but apparently it was probably just Yvette's people smearing them. It was a beautiful time to be alive.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 25, 2020)

Rebecca Long- Bailey has just been sacked . Allegedly for retweeting a Maxine Peak tweet which has been deemed anti semitic conspiracy


----------



## JimW (Jun 25, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Rebecca Long- Bailey has just been sacked . Allegedly for retweeting a Maxine Peak tweet which has been deemed anti semitic conspiracy


What was it? Always liked Peake so hope she's not actually going down that road.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Jun 25, 2020)

Keep off social media you fucking imbeciles


----------



## mauvais (Jun 25, 2020)

JimW said:


> What was it? Always liked Peake so hope she's not actually going down that road.











						Maxine Peake: ‘People who couldn’t vote Labour because of Jeremy Corbyn? They voted Tory as far as I’m concerned’
					

The star of ‘Shameless’ and ‘Silk’ talks to Alexandra Pollard about her new film ‘Fanny Lye Deliver’d’, the government’s shambolic handling of coronavirus and why she believes we should rid ourselves of capitalism




					www.independent.co.uk
				






> “Systemic racism is a global issue,” she adds. “The tactics used by the police in America, kneeling on George Floyd’s neck, that was learnt from seminars with Israeli secret services.” (A spokesperson for the Israeli police has denied this, stating that “there is no tactic or protocol that calls to put pressure on the neck or airway”.)


----------



## neonwilderness (Jun 25, 2020)

JimW said:


> What was it? Always liked Peake so hope she's not actually going down that road.











						Maxine Peake: ‘People who couldn’t vote Labour because of Jeremy Corbyn? They voted Tory as far as I’m concerned’
					

The star of ‘Shameless’ and ‘Silk’ talks to Alexandra Pollard about her new film ‘Fanny Lye Deliver’d’, the government’s shambolic handling of coronavirus and why she believes we should rid ourselves of capitalism




					www.independent.co.uk
				




Presumably this bit:


> UPDATE (25.06.20): A previous version of this article reported that a 2016 Amnesty International report had found that hundreds of US law enforcement officials had travelled to Israel for training. Our article also implied that this training could have included neck kneeling tactics. While it is true that US law enforcement officials have travelled to Israel for training, there has been no suggestion that this training involved the tactics referred to in the article. The article has been amended accordingly.


----------



## belboid (Jun 25, 2020)

JimW said:


> What was it? Always liked Peake so hope she's not actually going down that road.


She isn’t. Spineless shit Starmer.  Wants to pretend he’s n a government of national unity.


----------



## alsoknownas (Jun 25, 2020)

Has fired Rebecca Long Bailey apparently.


----------



## JimW (Jun 25, 2020)

belboid said:


> She isn’t. Spineless shit Starmer.  Wants to pretend he’s n a government of national unity.


Well, it's not great. Not that I doubt you could learn some shit off Israeli state forces but does smack of bringing them up as the completely beyond the pale evil guys even though apparently not true like a lot of the rumours in the "milieu". But can well believe it's something she's been told and has not thought on.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 25, 2020)

Might not be in the manual, however ...


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 25, 2020)

I guess calls for Maxine Peake to be an MP will tail off now as well


----------



## Chz (Jun 25, 2020)

Well, good move politically: show's he's strong on antisemitism, gets rid of an intellectual midget from the front bench and further disenfranchises the hard left.


----------



## SE25 (Jun 25, 2020)

This motherfucker is an enemy of the left


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jun 25, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Rebecca Long- Bailey has just been sacked . Allegedly for retweeting a Maxine Peak tweet which has been deemed anti semitic conspiracy



Starmer's legendary commitment to due process on show once again.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 25, 2020)

The real left would stay in and fight for two years. Fight hard. 

Wouldn't you belboid?


----------



## kebabking (Jun 25, 2020)

SE25 said:


> This motherfucker is an enemy of the left



But RLB is a fan of witless shitgibbons, so, you know....

If Corbynites are so convinced that Starmer is just looking for an excuse to get rid of them, why do they present it to him in such quantities?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jun 25, 2020)

Look forward to Starmer’s fan club on here dissembling about this....


----------



## belboid (Jun 25, 2020)

JimW said:


> Well, it's not great. Not that I doubt you could learn some shit off Israeli state forces but does smack of bringing them up as the completely beyond the pale evil guys even though apparently not true like a lot of the rumours in the "milieu". But can well believe it's something she's been told and has not thought on.


It has been recorded by amnesty that US police regularly visit Israel for training so it isn’t just a random ‘Mossad is behind everything’   

Starmer can’t manage to call for the clearly corrupt Jenrick to go, but he can sack someone for retweeting an article with one sentence that’s only 95% correct in it.   Makes Nick Clegg looked principled.


----------



## belboid (Jun 25, 2020)

butchersapron said:


> The real left would stay in and fight for two years. Fight hard.
> 
> Wouldn't you belboid?


lol

I probably won’t resign, if only to irritate some people.   But I won’t waste any time on trying to save/reclaim/whatever the party.


----------



## Smangus (Jun 25, 2020)

Good politics to play a contrast to Boris refusing to hold any one to account though, especially with Jenrick in the spot light. Not in the SFC btw.


----------



## kebabking (Jun 25, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Look forward to Starmer’s fan club on here dissembling about this....



Peake, after _years _of Labour having a problem, or allowing others to say they have a problem, with anti-Semitism, gobs off about Israel in a completely related interview - shades of Livingstone and his congenital inability to just shut the fuck up about Hitler and Zionism - and RLB re-tweets it with 'oh isn't she great' guff.

Peake is a conspiraloon, and RLB is a moron.


----------



## mauvais (Jun 25, 2020)

I fee like in the antisemitism race, 'they must have got it from Mossad' gets a _fairly _good bit of competition from tieing Mossad/Israel to Jewishness.


----------



## platinumsage (Jun 25, 2020)

It originated from a tweet by the US Campaign for Palestinian Rights:



			https://www.thejc.com/news/us-news/anti-zionist-group-links-george-floyd-death-to-racist-training-by-israeli-police-1.500211


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jun 25, 2020)

How fucking ridiculous to get sacked for retweeting a link to a piece like that. Where's the anti-Semitism? Long-Bailey never said it. Did she RT it with "Agreed Maxine, it's teh Joos lol"?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jun 25, 2020)

Smangus said:


> Good politics to play a contrast to Boris refusing to hold any one to account though, especially with Jenrick in the spot light. Not in the SFC btw.



Good_ tactics _maybe, but politics? Starmer wouldn't know politics if it fell on his head.


----------



## strung out (Jun 25, 2020)

S☼I said:


> How fucking ridiculous to get sacked for retweeting a link to a piece like that. Where's the anti-Semitism? Long-Bailey never said it. Did she RT it with "Agreed Maxine, it's teh Joos lol"?


Innit, I re-tweeted the article earlier this afternoon calling Maxine Peake a national treasure. Assume I'm getting sacked in the morning.


----------



## Argonia (Jun 25, 2020)

What's this latest bollocks about? What did Peake actually say in the article?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jun 25, 2020)

mauvais said:


> I fee like in the antisemitism race, 'they must have got it from Mossad' gets a _fairly _good bit of competition from tieing Mossad/Israel to Jewishness.



That's standard now though init. Questioning it is _in itself_ antisemitic. They get you coming and going.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jun 25, 2020)

kebabking said:


> Peake, after _years _of Labour having a problem, or allowing others to say they have a problem, with anti-Semitism, gobs off about Israel in a completely related interview - shades of Livingstone and his congenital inability to just shut the fuck up about Hitler and Zionism - and RLB re-tweets it with 'oh isn't she great' guff.
> 
> Peake is a conspiraloon, and RLB is a moron.



Not a bad opener. But you’ve made two overreaches here.

1. RLB wasn’t suggesting MP was ‘great’ because of one line referencing Israeli security services in a longer interview about Labour and her socialism. You don’t need the ‘forensic’ skills of Starmer to work that out, it’s clear
2. Trying to conflate MP’s criticisms of Israeli  security services with AS is not going to fly. Unless you think any criticism of the Israeli state is automatically AS?

Try harder


----------



## two sheds (Jun 25, 2020)

United Nations secretary general anti-semitic now  I trust Starmer will condemn him roundly.









						UN chief urges Israel to back away from West Bank annexation
					

António Guterres says plans to annex around 30% of the disputed territory would ‘destabilise’ the region




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jun 25, 2020)

Argonia said:


> What's this latest bollocks about? What did Peake actually say in the article?


“Systemic racism is a global issue,” she adds. “The tactics used by the police in America, kneeling on George Floyd’s neck, that was learnt from seminars with Israeli secret services.” (A spokesperson for the Israeli police has denied this, stating that “there is no tactic or protocol that calls to put pressure on the neck or airway”.)


----------



## platinumsage (Jun 25, 2020)

With this statement RBL makes it clear she still doesn’t see the problem with blaming Floyd’s death on the racism emanating from Israeli secret services, rather than, you know, the racism in the US police.

“I learned that many people were concerned by references to international sharing of training and restraint techniques between police and security forces.”


----------



## rekil (Jun 25, 2020)

It's been a joos-behind-everything loon meme for some time. Holocaust denier Henningsen quote tweeting holocaust denier Michael Hoffman, quoting crazed priest and antisemite Chuck Baldwin. 



Henningsen regards blm protests as the work of "feral mobs", compares statue topplers to ISIS and wants the troops to go in. There'd be no need to mention scum like this at all if parts of the left hadn't decided to wade neck deep into the loon swamp.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jun 25, 2020)

Argonia said:


> What's this latest bollocks about? What did Peake actually say in the article?



She said US coppers had been trained by Israeli security forces (true) and that the former learned the 'kneeling on someone's throat' tactic from them (denied). I think the idea that it's a specific strategy than needed to be invented, taught and learned, rather than a standard piece of brutality as old as brutality itself, is pretty fucking ludicrous but antisemitic? Meh.


----------



## Argonia (Jun 25, 2020)

It's not fucking anti-semitic.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 25, 2020)

_Jews _teaching US cops how to do racism? No, not good enough.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jun 25, 2020)

platinumsage said:


> With this statement RBL makes it clear she still doesn’t see the problem with *blaming Floyd’s death on the racism emanating from Israeli secret services*, rather than, you know, the racism in the US police.
> 
> “I learned that many people were concerned by references to international sharing of training and restraint techniques between police and security forces.”



Where has Long-Bailey made this claim, or endorsed it?


----------



## LDC (Jun 25, 2020)

Israeli secret services training run-of-the-mill US police forces in restraint and arrest techniques? Bollocks, and more than a hint of the conspiraloon about it. And like the US police aren't capable of fucking things up and killing people themselves with being taught by Israel.


----------



## platinumsage (Jun 25, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> Where has Long-Bailey made this claim, or endorsed it?



She has failed to acknowledge that claim was in the article, apparently it was just a reference to international sharing and she is perplexed as to why people have a problem with it.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 25, 2020)

Argonia said:


> It's not fucking anti-semitic.


Every single thing bad is related to jew-training of it. Go back to posh celebrity death stuff. This thread and others are full of you lot just circling under the surface.


----------



## bimble (Jun 25, 2020)

The thing about it’s Mossad what taught the us police how to treat black people has been doing the rounds of the loonoshere and really shouldn’t have been picked up by anyone with half a brain. Don’t think rlb should’ve been sacked that’s a separate issue.


----------



## belboid (Jun 25, 2020)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Israeli secret services training run-of-the-mill US police forces in restraint and arrest techniques? Bollocks, and more than a hint of the conspiraloon about it. And like the US police aren't capable of fucking things up and killing people themselves with being taught by Israel.


Of course they’re capable of doing it without any help.  But it is a plain fact that US cops do receive training from Israeli forces.  And that will include ‘restraint techniques’ as Israeli forces practise them more than most of the USs formal allies.  

We wouldn’t look the other way if it had been apartheid South Africa do we shouldn’t when it’s apartheid Israel.  

Pretending they don’t


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jun 25, 2020)

bimble said:


> The thing about it’s Mossad what taught the us police how to treat black people has been doing the rounds of the loonoshere and really shouldn’t have been picked up by anyone with half a brain. Don’t think rlb should’ve been sacked that’s a separate issue.



The debate is about the sacking of RLB. She has been sacked, officially, because she tweeted her support and admiration of MP after an interview where she talks in detail about Labour and her socialism.

Only one of two conclusions can be drawn:

1. Starmer will taken disciplinary action against ANY criticism of the Israeli state: or
2. This is a signal that the corbynite left is to be routed. Sacrifices to gain respectability and hat tips from an influential wing of the PMC. Plus RLB had earned his ire after perceptions that she was ‘too close’ to the teaching unions and this is a lesson to the rest of the Shadow Cabinet.


----------



## platinumsage (Jun 25, 2020)

bimble said:


> The thing about it’s Mossad what taught the us police how to treat black people has been doing the rounds of the loonoshere and really shouldn’t have been picked up by anyone with half a brain. Don’t think rlb should’ve been sacked that’s a separate issue.



RLB might have a half a brain or less, but as part of the Labour shadow cabinet you’d think she might have picked up a thing or to on identifying anti-semitism in its many forms. Apparently though she hasn’t, which seems like sufficient grounds for a sacking to me.


----------



## bellaozzydog (Jun 25, 2020)

I spent two years in krav maga beating up new coppers in a south west town. The police krav/maga/ restraint instructor literally went to Israel to get his training and qualifications 

Israel sell it hard

what the fuck it’s got to do with anti semitism I have no idea. Didn’t amnesty publish a report on it

labour is fucked

they must have already hooked up with their new corporate sponsors because they are sure as shit shedding membership and don’t seem in the slightest bit bothered

we need some Guy Fawkes shit raining down Parliament. Fucking burn it down


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jun 25, 2020)

platinumsage said:


> She has failed to acknowledge that claim was in the article, apparently it was just a reference to international sharing and she is perplexed as to why people have a problem with it.



The claim was that they learned a specific technique from Israeli forces, a claim which is probably bogus and even if true would obviously be denied, but which is a long way from 'US police learned racism from Israeli forces'.


----------



## chilango (Jun 25, 2020)

Does anyone seriously still believe the Labour Party can be any sort of vehicle for change at this point?

(and, yes, I could've made the exact same post in 2004 when I first joined Urban and still have been right).

What a collosal waste of time and effort.


----------



## bimble (Jun 25, 2020)

A great day for the government, they’ve not been able to say don’t look at us look at that mess over there for a long time.


----------



## belboid (Jun 25, 2020)

bimble said:


> A great day for the government, they’ve not been able to say don’t look at us look at that mess over there for a long time.


No one would have cared if Starmer hadn’t decided to acquiesce to apartheid


----------



## LDC (Jun 25, 2020)

belboid said:


> Of course they’re capable of doing it without any help.  But it is a plain fact that US cops do receive training from Israeli forces.  And that will include ‘restraint techniques’ as Israeli forces practise them more than most of the USs formal allies.
> 
> We wouldn’t look the other way if it had been apartheid South Africa do we shouldn’t when it’s apartheid Israel.
> 
> Pretending they don’t



I think there's a subtle but important difference between saying the US and Israeli police train together, or that the Israeli secret services taught the US police that technique or similar.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jun 25, 2020)

chilango said:


> Does anyone seriously still believe the Labour Party can be any sort of vehicle for change at this point?
> 
> (and, yes, I could've made the exact same post in 2004 when I first joined Urban and still have been right).
> 
> What a collosal waste of time and effort.



The only thing that has surprised me is the rapidity and shamelessness of re-Blairification under Starmer. But then that's the neoliberal way isn't it? Fuck things up so fast and on so many fronts your opponents don't know what's hit them. If there's a massive outside-context crisis going on at the same time, so much the better.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 25, 2020)

Mind you. irrespective of whether it was or wasn't anti-semitic, if he hadn't sacked her we'd have had another six months of daily newspaper headlines of 'Labour's not learned a thing from anti-semitism fiasco'


----------



## platinumsage (Jun 25, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> The claim was that they learned a specific technique from Israeli forces, a claim which is probably bogus and even if true would obviously be denied, but which is a long way from 'US police learned racism from Israeli forces'.



MP began that sentence with “Systemic racism is a global issue...” so that was the context this false claim about the “Israeli secret services” teaching this technique was made.


----------



## belboid (Jun 25, 2020)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I think there's a subtle but important difference between saying the US and Israeli police train together, or that the Israeli secret services taught the US police that.


But it’s not just a case of ‘training together’ it is Israeli forces. training us cops.  









						Minnesota cops 'trained by Israeli forces'
					






					morningstaronline.co.uk


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 25, 2020)

Where Do Many Police Departments Train? In Israel
					

U.S. law enforcement agencies need partners for effective training to strengthen their identified weak areas. Israel is not such a partner.




					www.amnestyusa.org


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jun 25, 2020)

two sheds said:


> Mind you. irrespective of whether it was or wasn't anti-semitic, if he hadn't sacked her we'd have had another six months of daily newspaper headlines of 'Labour's not learned a thing from anti-semitism fiasco'



To be fair Long-Bailey herself made little effort to address the antisemitism thing in a constructive way during her leadership campaign. Although of course any such effort coming from the Labour left would have been shot down in flames anyway. But by capitlating in full to the BoD's list of demands, including not discussing anything with non-approved Jewish groups, she helped tie the noose that's now hung her.


----------



## LDC (Jun 25, 2020)

belboid said:


> But it’s not just a case of ‘training together’ it is Israeli forces. training us cops.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



All sorts of training takes place. It's just Israel any US police force gets training from is it? And Peake was going on about 'Israeli secret services' wasn't she, not just the police? That article has no actual proof there's any relationship between this training and what happened anyway.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jun 25, 2020)

Rutita1 said:


> Where Do Many Police Departments Train? In Israel
> 
> 
> U.S. law enforcement agencies need partners for effective training to strengthen their identified weak areas. Israel is not such a partner.
> ...



That was where I first saw this story recently. Amnesty not typically thought of as part of the conspiraloon fringe.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 25, 2020)

_It is unclear whether any of the officers involved in the incident in which Mr Floyd was killed attended the conference.

But in a chilling testimony, a Palestinian rights activist said that when she saw the image of Derek Chauvin kneeling on Mr Floyd’s neck, she was reminded of the Israeli forces’ policing of the occupied territories._

The idea that they need outside training is both mental and politicaly crazy - the guilty is there in your face.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 25, 2020)

It's not capitalism and the legitimating system in train  - it's Israeli training. That i need to be even posting this in 2020.


----------



## LDC (Jun 25, 2020)

It doesn't even make sense. Fly US cops to Israel to be taught by Mossad to kneel on a neck when arresting someone? Such bollocks.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jun 25, 2020)

butchersapron said:


> It's not capitalism and the legitimating system in train  - it's Israeli training. That i need to be even posting this in 2020.



We're now at about four degrees of remove from the original claim, and nobody here is supporting it. Who are you talking to?


----------



## bellaozzydog (Jun 25, 2020)

Where Do Many Police Departments Train? In Israel
					

U.S. law enforcement agencies need partners for effective training to strengthen their identified weak areas. Israel is not such a partner.




					www.amnestyusa.org


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jun 25, 2020)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> It doesn't even make sense. Fly US cops to Israel to be taught by Mossad to kneel on a neck when arresting someone? Such bollocks.



Again without defending that specific claim, there is much in US policing that makes no sense.


----------



## bellaozzydog (Jun 25, 2020)

At least read around the subject before you show your ignorance 

it’s a fuxking training industry


----------



## agricola (Jun 25, 2020)

belboid said:


> Of course they’re capable of doing it without any help.  But it is a plain fact that US cops do receive training from Israeli forces.  And that will include ‘restraint techniques’ as Israeli forces practise them more than most of the USs formal allies.
> 
> We wouldn’t look the other way if it had been apartheid South Africa do we shouldn’t when it’s apartheid Israel.
> 
> Pretending they don’t



TBF if US Police wanted to learn "restraint techniques" then the place to learn that is here, not Israel (where their style of policing is so similar that there would be no reason to go there to do it).

Also it is a bit much to say that because people went there for training it must have been related to this issue.  To give one example, many forces that have a requirement to record 911 calls, radio traffic and other call-centre interactions will use a product made by an Israeli firm (NICE). Most training would take place locally, but a few people will have been able to get a holiday out of learning how to use it (especially with the amount of money some US forces have to spend on equipment)

Peake was talking rubbish, and anti-semitic rubbish at that.


----------



## platinumsage (Jun 25, 2020)

bellaozzydog said:


> At least read around the subject before you show your ignorance
> 
> it’s a fuxking training industry



Through which the Israeli secret services deviously stoke global racism?


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 25, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> We're now at about four degrees of remove from the original claim, and nobody here is supporting it. Who are you talking to?


I'm not 4 degrees from anything. I'm responding to the idea that focusing on training by the Israeli state - in the absence of knowledge of the whole gamut of training - is anything but stupid victory involving holding hands with horrible people. Peake sadly among them.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 25, 2020)

platinumsage said:


> Through which the Israeli secret services deviously stoke global racism?


You are a timewasting prick too mind.


----------



## belboid (Jun 25, 2020)

butchersapron said:


> It's not capitalism and the legitimating system in train  - it's Israeli training. That i need to be even posting this in 2020.


So ‘capitalism’ just magics these things out of thin air? Don’t be silly.  The apartheid Israeli state actively promotes its abilities to repress, as it gets to practise them more than most ‘western’ states.  Other countries and state forces are encouraged to take up such training to support ‘bonds’ between states.  That is how cApitalism works. 

Why do you think that the training that definitely takes place takes place if it’s completely unnecessary?


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jun 25, 2020)

It's insane that it's considered perfectly politically acceptable within Labour to support a racist, apartheid colonial state and its campaign of terror against a largely defenceless civilian population but sharing an article criticising it in perhaps poorly expressed terms is considered a sackable offence. Attending a BLM demo gets condemned. Meanwhile racially abusing black members eventually gets an 'inquiry' (that will do fuck all). Labour under Starmer is just another racist party - anti-black and anti-Palestinian.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jun 25, 2020)

belboid said:


> Why do you think that the training that definitely takes place takes place if it’s completely unnecessary?



Money? If I had to guess.


----------



## belboid (Jun 25, 2020)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> It doesn't even make sense. Fly US cops to Israel to be taught by Mossad to kneel on a neck when arresting someone? Such bollocks.


Israeli dudes came to the US.  To promote a service.  Not that weird.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 25, 2020)

belboid said:


> So ‘capitalism’ just magics these things out of thin air? Don’t be silly.  The apartheid Israeli state actively promotes its abilities to repress, as it gets to practise them more than most ‘western’ states.  Other countries and state forces are encouraged to take up such training to support ‘bonds’ between states.  That is how cApitalism works.
> 
> Why do you think that the training that definitely takes place takes place if it’s completely unnecessary?


Who said that it's unnecessary? So it's necessary in your reading? Why then, and why Israeli?


----------



## platinumsage (Jun 25, 2020)

butchersapron said:


> You are a timewasting prick too mind.



Thanks for that.


----------



## LDC (Jun 25, 2020)

belboid said:


> Israeli dudes came to the US.  To promote a service.  Not that weird.



Not just anyone mind you, secret services to teach the mysterious art of kneeling on someone's neck.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 25, 2020)

For those still in, i reckoon this is worst opp poss.l


LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Not just anyone mind you, secret services to teach the mysterious art of kneeling on someone's neck.


Racism was just bimbling along till that point.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 25, 2020)

Well I guess this is why RLB was unable to speak at the UCU solitary rally today.


----------



## belboid (Jun 25, 2020)

butchersapron said:


> Who said that it's unnecessary? So it's necessary in your reading? Why then, and why Israeli?


I answered that. Because Israel is really good at it.  Export of military and police equipment and training has long been a mainstay of their economic policy.  And states take it up both because they’re good at it and because the state wants to make sure Israel is supported.  

Of course they’re not the only ones to do so.  The US and UK both have too.  Various other states.


----------



## belboid (Jun 25, 2020)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Not just anyone mind you, secret services to teach the mysterious art of kneeling on someone's neck.


Tell me then. Why do they regularly pay for training from Israeli forces?


----------



## two sheds (Jun 25, 2020)

Kneeling on someone's neck doesn't seem an obvious restraint technique to me. Risk of spinal, cranial damage leaving aside the choking? Fucking evil.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 25, 2020)

belboid said:


> I answered that. Because Israel is really good at it.  Export of military and police equipment and training has long been a mainstay of their economic policy.  And states take it up both because they’re good at it and because the state wants to make sure Israel is supported.
> 
> Of course they’re not the only ones to do so.  The US and UK both have too.  Various other states.


I wonder if, in a time of loons choosing to ignore all sorts of stuff and leave connections just_ hanging in the air_...it might be best for SOCIALISTS not to play that game.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 25, 2020)

two sheds said:


> Kneeling on someone's neck doesn't seem an obvious restraint technique to me. Risk of spinal, cranial damage leaving aside the choking? Fucking evil.


Yeah, but you know who does dat etc


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 25, 2020)

The research into where else budgets have gone is ongoing i suspect.


----------



## planetgeli (Jun 25, 2020)

Mass stupidity all round. 

MP repeats something gaining ground in luvvie circles (see Roger Waters nuttiness earlier this month - or don't, it's worse) that neatly deflects attention and misses the point of focusing on American policing that has always been racist without any help.

RLB retweets without thinking too hard. Just fucking stay off Twitter for one. And think.

Labour right revels in forensic Starmer's decisive leadership. Supported by Tories who are gleeful attention has been switched from Jenrick's corruption. 

People on here (sorry, you LDC) give the impression that a multi-billion pound training industry that yes, sometimes produces nothing for the sake of the money going round, doesn't really exist. Because that would be silly.

Just another day in paradise.


----------



## LDC (Jun 25, 2020)

belboid said:


> Tell me then. Why do they regularly pay for training from Israeli forces?




You're missing my point. They do train with lots of other countries, Israel included. Not normal US beat cops with Mossad or other secret services though, and Israel isn't to blame for this killing in any way.

Making those links above and beyond other countries training with the US, and suggesting the secret services of Israel (with all the conspiraloon stuff about Mossad as context) are responsible for this as they trained US cops how to do this technique is bonkers.


----------



## belboid (Jun 25, 2020)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> You're missing my point. They do train with lots of other countries, Israel included. Not normal beat US cops with Mossad or other secret services though, and Israel isn't to blame for this killing in any way.


So if she had just not said ‘secret service’ everything would be groovy? It’s a massive stretch to say she was claiming Israel was responsible for his death.  It seems pretty clear she was just pointing out the interrelated, worldwide, systematised racism employed by police forces.


----------



## LDC (Jun 25, 2020)

belboid said:


> So if she had just not said ‘secret service’ everything would be groovy? It’s a massive stretch to say she was claiming Israel was responsible for his death.  It seems pretty clear she was just pointing out the interrelated, worldwide, systematised racism employed by police forces.



"...she adds. “The tactics used by the police in America, kneeling on George Floyd’s neck, that was learnt from seminars with Israeli secret services.”

Bonkers at best tbh. Whether RLB should have been sacked is different question TBH, I don't care either way really.


----------



## rekil (Jun 25, 2020)

Worldwide meaning Israel, one of the only two states in the world.


----------



## agricola (Jun 25, 2020)

belboid said:


> So if she had just not said ‘secret service’ everything would be groovy? It’s a massive stretch to say she was claiming Israel was responsible for his death.  It seems pretty clear she was just pointing out the interrelated, worldwide, systematised racism employed by police forces.



Not sure how the sentence after the one mentioning a massive stretch isn't itself a massive stretch, tbh.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jun 25, 2020)

Ironic that the Peake article said people should be allowed to make mistakes but should be able to learn from and have a dialogue,not just get pilloried


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jun 25, 2020)

planetgeli said:


> Just fucking stay off Twitter for one.



Why politicians are on there at all is a mystery to me. Not like they ever have a good day on twitter is it? Best case scenario is you avoid a career-ending fuckup and the resulting dogpile.


----------



## Brainaddict (Jun 25, 2020)

The claim by Peake was factually untrue, and if you can't see the slip into conspiracism by bringing in 'secret services' when that's not true, and claiming they teach kneeling on necks when that's probably not true, then I guess that is one reason Labour has had such problems dealing with claims of anti-semitism.

As for RLB, the stupidity in retweeting this isn't quite Livingstone-level, but it's high enough not to elicit much sympathy from me.

Starmer's still an arsehole, obv, but if Labour wants to try to be a left wing party again their pool of talent is going to have to grow, and include people who don't retweet dodgy claims about Israeli influence.


----------



## LDC (Jun 25, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> Why politicians are on there at all is a mystery to me. Not like they ever have a good day on twitter is it? Best case scenario is you avoid a career-ending fuckup and the resulting dogpile.



I know. It must be like playing daily Russian roulette with your career and social life for some of them.


----------



## bellaozzydog (Jun 25, 2020)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> You're missing my point. They do train with lots of other countries, Israel included. Not normal beat US cops with Mossad or other secret services though, and Israel isn't to blame for this killing in any way.
> 
> Making those links above and beyond other countries training with the US, and suggesting the secret services of Israel (with all the conspiraloon stuff about Mossad as context) are responsible for this as they trained US cops how to do this technique is bonkers.



sorry you are howling at the moon

I thought the left were supposed to be the conspiraloons


----------



## NoXion (Jun 25, 2020)

It's totally implausible to assume that a state which has spent decades occupying land and keeping the locals under their boots, would have any skills or experience to share with friendly foreign powers. Especially if those powers have police forces that act like occupying armies while on their home turf.


----------



## Wilf (Jun 25, 2020)

NoXion said:


> It's totally implausible to assume that a state which has spent decades occupying land and keeping the locals under their boots, would have any skills or experience to share with friendly foreign powers. Especially if those powers have police forces that act like occupying armies while on their home turf.


In terms of entry points into this discussion, I happen to agree with that - yes, it's a reasonable statement. Question is whether it's _true _and that the specific group of US cops did get this training (or that similar techniques were passed on to their Department). There's a fairly simple empirical question at the heart of this. Needless to say, I don't know the answer to that.

But then this will never play out as an empirical question on the left. If we'd been able to get rid of the conspiracists and associated fuckwits, 'the left' would have been able to have a reasonable discussion, that was able to draw distinctions between AS and criticisms of the state of Israel - and would be able to insert some decent politics into that gap.  That failure means this is a rinse and repeat spin cycle.


----------



## kebabking (Jun 25, 2020)

NoXion said:


> It's totally implausible to assume that a state which has spent decades occupying land and keeping the locals under their boots, would have any skills or experience to share with friendly foreign powers. Especially if those powers have police forces that act like occupying armies while on their home turf.



I doubt there's a police force on earth that doesn't occasionally kneel on someone's neck, it's not an astonishing revelation that it's a very good way of enforcing compliance - it's also not something that the Mossad or Shin Bet, or the Saryet Maktal will have taught to a bunch of plod in Buttfuck, Illinois.

The AS aspect with this is the obsession with Israel - like no one else in the world would think of kneeling on someone's neck without the Israeli's giving them the idea - and the 'secret services' stuff, which runs like a feotid river through the anti-Semitic swamp.


----------



## bimble (Jun 25, 2020)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> "...she adds. “The tactics used by the police in America, kneeling on George Floyd’s neck, that was learnt from seminars with Israeli secret services.”


Didn’t realise the thing actually said it that explicitly. Israeli secret services are responsible for that American policemen getting the idea that he should kneel on George Floyd's neck basically. That is properly mental.
RLB's sacking is probably great for Starmer, especially right now when Johnson continues to defend the several dickheads around him who have done loads worse that press retweet on something they probably didn't read all that carefully.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jun 25, 2020)

Brainaddict said:


> As for RLB, the stupidity in retweeting this isn't quite Livingstone-level, but it's high enough not to elicit much sympathy from me.
> 
> Starmer's still an arsehole, obv, but if Labour wants to try to be a left wing party again their pool of talent is going to have to grow, and include people who don't retweet dodgy claims about Israeli influence.



On your second paragraph (this isn’t about Maxine Peake which you cover in your first) do you seriously want to make an argument that RLB retweeted it to draw attention to the final paragraph? If not, then explain how exactly, objectively, it’s a sacking offence?

I don’t understand your third paragraph. Are you arguing that Starmer has sacked her as part of his efforts to make Labour ‘a left wing party again’?


----------



## belboid (Jun 25, 2020)

The ‘secret services stuff’ IS in the Amnesty report posted earlier.  

“Baltimore police received training on crowd control, use of force and surveillance: Israel’s national police, military and intelligence services.”

Restraint techniques are taught in many many occupations.  Daft to say that that doesn’t happen at all.  There isn’t any evidence that that particular method was taught of course by them of course, but similar shit will have been.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 25, 2020)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> "...she adds. “The tactics used by the police in America, kneeling on George Floyd’s neck, that was learnt from seminars with Israeli secret services.”
> 
> Bonkers at best tbh. Whether RLB should have been sacked is different question TBH, I don't care either way really.



Mossad is for overseas..inland intelligence services are MiD and they are part of the IDF.









						Military Intelligence Directorate (Israel) - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## NoXion (Jun 25, 2020)

kebabking said:


> I doubt there's a police force on earth that doesn't occasionally kneel on someone's neck, it's not an astonishing revelation that it's a very good way of enforcing compliance - it's also not something that the Mossad or Shin Bet, or the Saryet Maktal will have taught to a bunch of plod in Buttfuck, Illinois.



You and I both know that such exchanges of expertise involve more than just "kneeling on necks", because they fucking happen. Unless you have good reason to believe Amnesty USA are mistaken:



Rutita1 said:


> Where Do Many Police Departments Train? In Israel
> 
> 
> U.S. law enforcement agencies need partners for effective training to strengthen their identified weak areas. Israel is not such a partner.
> ...



If they're not mistaken, then what the fuck are US police forces doing in Israel? Playing paintball?


----------



## bimble (Jun 25, 2020)

Does anyone think George Floyd would be alive today if it weren't for the mossad? I'm pretty sure nobody thinks that really. Whole conversation is a bit nuts imo.


----------



## LDC (Jun 25, 2020)

Nobody said no training exchanges happen, plenty do. I disputed what Peake said which was...

"...she adds. “The tactics used by the police in America, kneeling on George Floyd’s neck, that was learnt from seminars with Israeli secret services.”

No evidence for that at all, if you think they go to learn that basic shit from some special Israel secret service you're deluded. And the phrasing of it and focus of blaming the hand of Israel for a killing by a random cop in the US smacks very firmly of conspiracy theory bollocks to me. Most charitably she's a fucking idiot who should know better.

She's retracted her statement btw, for all of you defending it.


----------



## LDC (Jun 25, 2020)

This thread is a great example of the blind spot some of the left has when it comes to Israel and anti-semitism.


----------



## mauvais (Jun 25, 2020)

Brainaddict said:


> but if Labour wants to try to be a left wing party again


I've debugged this statement for you.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 25, 2020)

belboid said:


> The ‘secret services stuff’ IS in the Amnesty report posted earlier.
> 
> “Baltimore police received training on crowd control, use of force and surveillance: Israel’s national police, military and intelligence services.”
> 
> Restraint techniques are taught in many many occupations.  Daft to say that that doesn’t happen at all.  There isn’t any evidence that that particular method was taught of course by them of course, but similar shit will have been.






> A diverse group of 52 law enforcement officers from 12 U.S. states visited Israel and participated in joint training sessions with their Israeli counterparts during September 2017. This program, known as the Police Unity Tour, has been held periodically since 1997.





> “The delegation studied Israel’s best practices and advances in community policing; recruitment and deployment; counterterrorism; emergency management; advanced technologies; homeland security policies; mounted police; use of K-9 services for drugs, explosives and missing persons; and crisis negotiations.”





> Friedmann said the sessions emphasized “a policy and a strategy aimed at achieving more effective and efficient crime control, reduced fear of crime, improved quality of life, improved police services and police legitimacy, through a proactive reliance on community resources that seek to change crime-causing conditions,”



What I don't understand is why the ADL were/are sponsoring these exchanges?



> In November 2011, a delegation of senior American law enforcement officials, including police commanders, security experts and FBI agents, went to Israel for a joint training seminar with Israeli counter-terrorism officials sponsored by the Anti-Defamation League







__





						Joint US-Israel Police & Law Enforcement Training
					

Encyclopedia of Jewish and Israeli history, politics and culture, with biographies, statistics, articles and documents on topics from anti-Semitism to Zionism.




					www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jun 25, 2020)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> This thread is a great example of the blind spot some of the left has when it comes to Israel and anti-semitism.



Yes it does. It’s indicative of how easy it’s going to be for Starmer to reimpose the ‘common sense of the market’ by wiping out the last vestiges of social democracy from his shadow cabinet.

Nobody - not Starmer, not those backing him, not even the conspiraloon’s - believe RLB wrote the tweet to draw attention to Peake’s remark about the Israeli secret service. But she was sacked. Instead of focusing on why she’s been sacked and want that means, here we are. Page after page of bollocks


----------



## mauvais (Jun 25, 2020)

Yeah, but on the other hand, RLB wasn't actually very good - despite the great hopes/confirmation bias of much of more left elements within the party - so her being got rid of from an already arms length position is not exactly consequential or headline news regarding a party that is already very clearly on its way to centrist irrelevance.


----------



## teqniq (Jun 25, 2020)

Yup. Starmer's a beige centrist arsehole. Who'd've guessed?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 25, 2020)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Nobody said no training exchanges happen, plenty do. I disputed what Peake said which was...
> 
> "...she adds. “The tactics used by the police in America, kneeling on George Floyd’s neck, that was learnt from seminars with Israeli secret services.”
> 
> ...



She's drawing a parallel between the racist policing tactics/methods used daily. Plenty of evidence of that.

 No there is no 'evidence' to say that the US police officers that killed GF learnt those skills from the MID/IDF, we'd need to hear from someone who has attended to know that for sure. From what I have read there have been higher level strategic visits as well as actual training for lower level police bods.


----------



## Wilf (Jun 25, 2020)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> or AS.
> Nobody said no training exchanges happen, plenty do. I disputed what Peake said which was...
> 
> "...she adds. “The tactics used by the police in America, kneeling on George Floyd’s neck, that was learnt from seminars with Israeli secret services.”
> ...


I'll start of by cementing my ignorance on this: I don't know what the nuances of Peake's politics are when it comes to Israel or AS. She might have a toe in the water, might share commons assumptions, might have a tendency to read those articles rather than those others. And of course she might be none of the above. But its the morass, the almost neurological network of Cts and antisemitism that is the problem. It sits there as a failed issue for the left, 'a thing', a ball of shite that you either plot your way round with good instincts and good thinking or you find yourself caught up in.  Trouble is, if anyone is going to 'solve this' nowadays it will be the likes of Starmer, the Mail and the worst of the worse. In a sense they already have. The left could have done so much more to call out AS and develop it's own solution back in the time of the STWC but didn't (and way before that). Remember all the threads on here.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jun 25, 2020)

mauvais said:


> Yeah, but on the other hand, RLB wasn't actually very good - despite the great hopes/confirmation bias of much of more left elements within the party



I make no great claims about RLB. Her leadership bid was execrable and I’ve seen more life in a damp cloth.

However, it’s a significantly symbolic move by Haircut. Both in terms of recasting the relationship with the unions - her real crime was the support she was offering teaching unions - and also defining the new parameters of how ‘unity’ is going to work.

For those in here who have any illusions about Labour it’s a moment where they are going to need to make some decisions.


----------



## belboid (Jun 25, 2020)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Nobody said no training exchanges happen, plenty do. I disputed what Peake said which was...
> 
> "...she adds. “The tactics used by the police in America, kneeling on George Floyd’s neck, that was learnt from seminars with Israeli secret services.”
> 
> ...


You been taking goal post sifting lessons from Athos?  You were saying it was the mention of ‘secret services’ that was the problem before.   Everyone on here has said she was wrong about that specific and should say so, which she has.  But that single mistake doesn’t make her a peddler of anti Semitic conspiracy theories.   

Funny that you n butch have both adopted the same tactics as the conspiraloons you’re meant to be opposing.   A single incorrect statement, twisted to mean something that 99% of people wouldn’t have thought...and using that to damn them as being ‘obviously’ anti Semitic.   Utterly fucking absurd.


----------



## mauvais (Jun 25, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I make no great claims about RLB. Her leadership bid was execrable and I’ve seen more life in a damp cloth.
> 
> However, it’s a significantly symbolic move by Haircut. Both in terms of recasting the relationship with the unions - her real crime was the support she was offering teaching unions - and also defining the new parameters of how ‘unity’ is going to work.
> 
> For those in here who have any illusions about Labour it’s a moment where they are going to need to make some decisions.


I can agree that for some out there it will be revealing, although they will probably stick with Labour. For us on here, and I barely know what day it is, it's surely nothing new?


----------



## bimble (Jun 25, 2020)

Innacurate assumption. No need to double down.


----------



## Idris2002 (Jun 25, 2020)

agricola said:


> TBF if US Police wanted to learn "restraint techniques" then the place to learn that is here, not Israel (where their style of policing is so similar that there would be no reason to go there to do it).
> 
> Also it is a bit much to say that because people went there for training it must have been related to this issue.  To give one example, many forces that have a requirement to record 911 calls, radio traffic and other call-centre interactions will use a product made by an Israeli firm (NICE). Most training would take place locally, but a few people will have been able to get a holiday out of learning how to use it (especially with the amount of money some US forces have to spend on equipment)
> 
> Peake was talking rubbish, and anti-semitic rubbish at that.


It's for the team building convos in the bar afterwards. "No way, you guys kneel on suspect's necks too?"


----------



## Wilf (Jun 25, 2020)

And of course this shit show still leaves black and Palestinian necks still getting knelt upon.


----------



## rekil (Jun 25, 2020)

7 min New Yorker mag video on police trainer Dave Grossman. 



Spoiler






 

The murderer of Philando Castile took one of his courses. A German born retired US army ranger officer involved in this stuff doesn't make the ears prick up as much as the mention of 'Israel' for some reason.  Washington Post piece on him. 



			https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-watch/wp/2017/02/14/a-day-with-killology-police-trainer-dave-grossman/


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 25, 2020)

Not that I would have known this but it is a thing to pay, as a civilian of other countries to receive training by the IDF/ex IDF. There are adventure holiday style companies offering this. 'No one will mess with you when you return' is an actual quote from one of them.

Search 'Training with the IDF' if you are grimly minded this evening and want to see for yourself.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 25, 2020)

rekil said:


> 7 min New Yorker mag video on police trainer Dave Grossman.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Paywall. :/


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jun 25, 2020)

Wilf said:


> And of course this shit show still leaves black and Palestinian necks still getting knelt upon.



Yeah, but let’s not ‘both sides’ this shit. The status quo leads to these slaughters and right wingers like Starmer support the status quo. The left are the ones trying to change it.


----------



## William of Walworth (Jun 25, 2020)

All this is new to me this evening 

But you don't have to think much is good about either Keir Starmer or Rebecca Long-Bailey to find the last few pages of this thread *utterly* depressing ..... 

 

(I've made a few inconsistent likes of different posts above, but I was enjoying the anti-Tory threads prior to this  )


----------



## rekil (Jun 25, 2020)

Rutita1 said:


> Paywall. :/


There should be a browse now button. C+P.



Spoiler



A few months ago, I posted a review of the harrowing documentary “Do Not Resist.” It includes a scene from a class with Dave Grossman, whose classes on policing and the use of force have become hugely popular in the law enforcement community.



> Fittingly, the most chilling scene in the movie doesn’t take place on a city street, or at a protest, or during a drug raid. It takes place in a conference room. It’s from a police training conference with Dave Grossman, one of the most prolific police trainers in the country. Grossman’s classes teach officers to be less hesitant to use lethal force, urge them to be willing to do it more quickly and teach them how to adopt the mentality of a warrior. Jeronimo Yanez, the Minnesota police officer who shot and killed Philando Castile in July, had attended one of Grossman’s classes called “The Bulletproof Warrior” (though that particular class was taught by Grossman’s business partner, Jim Glennon).
> In the class recorded for “Do Not Resist,” Grossman at one point tells his students that the sex they have after they kill another human being will be the best sex of their lives. The room chuckles. But he’s clearly serious. “Both partners are very invested in some very intense sex,” he says. “There’s not a whole lot of perks that come with this job. You find one, relax and enjoy it.”
> Grossman closes the class with a (literal) chest-pounding motivational speech that climaxes with Grossman telling the officers to find an overpass overlooking the city they serve. He urges them to look down on their city and know that they’ve made the world a better place. He then urges them to grip the overpass railing, lean forward and “let your cape blow in the wind.” The room gives him a standing ovation.



Grossman and Glennon teach the most popular of these classes, but they have competitors. When it comes to teaching cops how to escalate, how to see the world as their enemy and how to find the courage to kill more people, more often, there’s no shortage of options. (The syllabus for one of these courses includes a page of Bible verses relating to when it’s moral and just to kill.) It’s part and parcel with the pseudoscience churned out by William Lewinski at the Force Science Institute in Minnesota, who also preaches that cops should learn to become more lethal (and will testify in court for any cop who takes his advice). I’ve spoken to more than a few sheriffs and police chiefs who want no part of this philosophy, but who also say they can’t really control what their officers do on their own time.

Mother Jones reporter Bryan Schatz recently took one of Grossman’s classes himself.


Marching around the stage in a theater in Lakeport, California, Lt. Colonel Dave Grossman tells his audience that they shouldn’t go out looking for people to kill, because those who need killing—the “gangbangers,” terrorists, and mass murderers—will come to them. All they need to do is be ready. “Are you prepared to kill somebody?” he asks me and the small group of “armed citizens” who’ve paid $90 or more to see him. “If you cannot answer that question, you should not be carrying a gun.”
Two hours into his high-octane, six-hour seminar, the self-described top police trainer in the nation is just getting warmed up. Grossman, a 60-year-old former Army Ranger, wears low-slung blue jeans, an ornate Western belt buckle, and a black button-up emblazoned with the words “Grossman Academy,” the “O” stitched like a bull’s-eye. He sports a military haircut. Onstage are two giant easel pads, their legs taped to the floor so that they don’t go crashing down whenever he hits them to punctuate his points. “We fight violence. What do we fight it with? Superior violence. Righteous violence.” Like a preacher, he doesn’t bother with notes …



Grossman’s worldview makes President Trump sound like Julian Simon.


> [Grossman] views the world as almost unrecognizably dangerous: a place where gang members seek to set records for killing cops, where a kid “in every school” is thinking about racking up “a body count.” His latest book, Assassination Generation, insists that violent video games are turning the nation’s youth into mass murderers. The recent wave of “massacres” is just the beginning. (“Please stop calling them mass shootings!”) He smacks the easels: “These [_thump_] crimes [_thump_] are [_thump_] everywhere!” He foresees attacks on school buses and day care centers. “Kindergartners run about point-five miles an hour and get a burst of about 20 yards and then they’re done.” It won’t just happen with guns, but with hammers, axes, hatchets, knives, and swords. His voice jumps an octave: “Hacking and stabbing little kids! You don’t think they’ll attack day cares? It’s already happening in China. When you hear about a day care massacre,” he shouts, “tell them Grossman said it was coming!”
> That’s not the end of it. “More people are signing up with ISIS than we can count,” Grossman says. He predicts a terrorist organization will soon detonate a nuclear bomb off the West Coast. “We have never been more likely to be nuked, and we have never been less prepared!” Terrorists will send “suicide bio-bombers” across the border to spread deadly diseases. “The day will come,” Grossman insists. “Folks, it is very, very bad out there!”



This is the guy who has trained more U.S. police officers than anyone else. The guy who, more than anyone else, has instructed cops on what mind-set they should bring to their jobs.
Schatz isn’t the first reporter to attend one of these classes. Bloomberg’s Peter Robison attended one in 2015, taught by Grossman’s colleague Glennon. Here’s a particularly vivid passage from Robison’s account:


> Before proceeding, Glennon points to a threat in the back of the room: me. “In 35 years, we have not allowed the press to come into a class,” he says. “The reason is because we don’t trust them.” He says he’s letting me observe because many police chiefs are frustrated no one is advocating for them. They’re tired of being portrayed in the media as racists and unaccountable killers and want a more sympathetic depiction. If my article screws them, he tells the class with a smile, “I’ll fly out to Seattle”—where I live—“and kill him.”


I mean, I’m sure Glennon was joking. (Hilarious!) But in an era in which we have a president who a) is beloved by law enforcement, b) vilifies journalists and c) has expressed his admiration for at least one foreign leader believed to have no qualms about assassinating journalists, that passage is especially disconcerting.

We’re also entering an era in which law enforcement officials appear to be emboldened by Trump’s election. Both the president and Attorney General Jeff Sessions have indicated that federal oversight of local law enforcement is about to end or at least be scaled back considerably. State legislators have followed with bills to hold cops less accountable and allow police agencies to be less transparent after allegations of excessive force. These classes are getting increasingly popular at a time when the dominant political party seems to believe police officers should be given more latitude, get less oversight and not be subject to second-guessing. That seems like a potentially dangerous combination.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 25, 2020)

Bit more context to the 'swiftness' of this now seeing that the JC published this article about the Morning Star much earlier in the month.



			https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/morning-star-publishes-article-linking-george-floyd-killing-to-israel-1.500481


----------



## Wilf (Jun 25, 2020)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Yeah, but let’s not ‘both sides’ this shit. The status quo leads to these slaughters and right wingers like Starmer support the status quo. The left are the ones trying to change it.


Well yeah, I want to criticise the state of Israel, I want to challenge it's racist policies and murders. But then there isn't a single left on this - I want to be able to say all that without saying 'we're all Hezbollah now'.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 25, 2020)

rekil said:


> There should be a browse now button. C+P.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Thanks, reading that, it  sent me off down a rabbit hole of the what training happens in the US and who provides it.  Another world completely.
Grossman isn't the only one, obviously there are loads of orgs and institutes, some with links to the IDF and IDF training boasted as a 'selling' point.


----------



## killer b (Jun 25, 2020)

This event has nicely illustrated how unserious and essentially useless the Labour left are, and how quickly and ruthlessly the right is moving to consolidate power. Two for one.


----------



## mauvais (Jun 25, 2020)

killer b said:


> This event has nicely illustrated how unserious and essentially useless the Labour left are, and how quickly and ruthlessly the right is moving to consolidate power. Two for one.


Consolidate what power though, and for what? Whilst you're obviously correct about the left, I think you're at risk of grossly overestimating the right, who so far have managed to agree with the government a whole lot, not convince anyone, and then action a breathtaking coup in which they err eliminated one of the weakest political challengers the world has ever seen from a position of err not really very much import.

I mean, we knew all this already and it only really matters if you haven't yet written off the Labour Party. But it doesn't mean the Labour Party are winning either.


----------



## killer b (Jun 25, 2020)

I don't think it's a breathtaking coup, it's just a flex of the muscles.


----------



## Wilf (Jun 25, 2020)

killer b said:


> This event has nicely illustrated how unserious and essentially useless the Labour left are, and how quickly and ruthlessly the right is moving to consolidate power. Two for one.


Yeah, Starmer consolidates power and even further limits the parameters within which he will seek to win power for Labour. Him, RLB, Peake all seem to be characters in a game that had its rules written a long time ago.


----------



## quimcunx (Jun 25, 2020)

Rutita1 said:


> Paywall. :/



There is a podcast episode about him. 






						iHeartRadio Unsupported Country
					

The country you are located in is not supported.



					www.iheart.com


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jun 25, 2020)

killer b said:


> This event has nicely illustrated how unserious and essentially useless the Labour left are, and how quickly and ruthlessly the right is moving to consolidate power. Two for one.



Campaign Group have launched a petition. Waitrose must be shitting himself


----------



## Humberto (Jun 25, 2020)

If he had neglected to meet it head on the party would just have been dogged by the accusations in perpetuity. I think it was the right move from a leadership perspective. It's not about placating people who show poor judgement. They are meant to be able to get the right line on things like this in their sleep. If they aren't up to it they need demoting.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jun 26, 2020)

Obligatory hard hat and hi vis jacket photo op. Having seen this I now realise that Sir Kier Starmer QC is a man of the people, just like George Osborne and Boris Johnson.


----------



## 19force8 (Jun 26, 2020)

Totally missing the point (possibly) but you have to wonder if the set of "Silk" with Maxine and Frances was anything like the "Feud" between Bette and Joan.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 26, 2020)

mauvais said:


> I can agree that for some out there it will be revealing, although they will probably stick with Labour. For us on here, and I barely know what day it is, it's surely nothing new?





mauvais said:


> I mean, we knew all this already and it only really matters if you haven't yet written off the Labour Party. But it doesn't mean the Labour Party are winning either.


There are people on here who were insisting that the LP was the best option for political change, that it was at the very least a social democratic, perhaps even a socialist, party. People who defend LP councillors voting for cuts. There are people on U75 (hell on this thread) who have not only not written off the LP but have specifically opposed criticism of it.

Less than two years ago you specifically stated that parliamentary politics was the only recourse for action. Five years ago you specifically argued that people should become involved in the LP. IF you're now saying that you've written off the LP fine, but it was not that long ago that you were attacking people for their criticisms of the LP.


----------



## bellaozzydog (Jun 26, 2020)

Dave Grossman wrote the seminal “On Killing”

The psychology of how train out the human behavioural trait of not to want to kill another human being 

obviously helpful in battle...less so on the front porch and lawns of america

Possibly the least appropriate fucker to teach civilian police forces ever

The Warrior cult of america is sick as fuck as any google of “sheepdogs versus wolves” will show you

slides nicely into the current BLM situation as the black american male is the default “wolf” in the racist American narrative


----------



## bellaozzydog (Jun 26, 2020)

Dp


----------



## mauvais (Jun 26, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> There are people on here who were insisting that the LP was the best option for political change, that it was at the very least a social democratic, perhaps even a socialist, party. People who defend LP councillors voting for cuts. There are people on U75 (hell on this thread) who have not only not written off the LP but have specifically opposed criticism of it.
> 
> Less than two years ago you specifically stated that parliamentary politics was the only recourse for action. Five years ago you specifically argued that people should become involved in the LP. IF you're now saying that you've written off the LP fine, but it was not that long ago that you were attacking people for their criticisms of the LP.


Heh. I could get into this (what you say about me is not true) but it's too hot. I'd just like to say that this post could have been written, "oh cool you finally agree with me", which to a large extent I do, but instead here you are trying to have a fight. On behalf of what?

The situation has changed in at least two major ways, but also I have learnt something from the last debacle.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jun 26, 2020)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> She's retracted her statement btw, for all of you defending it.



Not sure anyone is defending it.


----------



## LDC (Jun 26, 2020)

belboid said:


> You been taking goal post sifting lessons from Athos?  You were saying it was the mention of ‘secret services’ that was the problem before.   Everyone on here has said she was wrong about that specific and should say so, which she has.  But that single mistake doesn’t make her a peddler of anti Semitic conspiracy theories.
> 
> Funny that you n butch have both adopted the same tactics as the conspiraloons you’re meant to be opposing.   A single incorrect statement, twisted to mean something that 99% of people wouldn’t have thought...and using that to damn them as being ‘obviously’ anti Semitic.   Utterly fucking absurd.



The 'secret services' bit was one part of what's wrong, since some people seemed unable to see the significance with claiming that specifically, but there are other issues with her sentence of course. Stupidity and inaccuracy being others.

FWIW I actually like Peake, and have met her briefly, and nowhere did I say she should be damned or written off, as I've said she might have made the statement out of stupidity or something else.

As you say some of this stuff is hard for many people to get why it's anti-Semitic, but that shouldn't mean so many of the (especially Labour) left just seem completely unable to say when it is a problem, and instead have a knee jerk reaction to justify it, go on about how bad Israel is, deny any problem, etc.

Again, here's her (now retracted) bit from the interview... "...she adds. “The tactics used by the police in America, kneeling on George Floyd’s neck, that was learnt from seminars with Israeli secret services.”

Anyway, enough of this for me. Said what I think, more important things to think on.


----------



## Struwwelpeter (Jun 26, 2020)

Epic fail by both RLB and KS, whatever truth might or might not exist within the retweeted article.

I’m not talking about what is morally right, just how to play the game:

RLB. Too dim to realise the extreme care needed before a Labour politician says anything about Israel.

KS. Overplayed and mistimed his move. Massive distraction from the blatant corruption in the Tory party when he could have (ab)used “due process” to pick his moment.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jun 26, 2020)

She didn’t ‘say’ anything about Israel. She further clarified the purpose of the retweet. Whatever her failings she’s done absolutely nothing that warrants her sacking.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jun 26, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> She didn’t ‘say’ anything about Israel. She further clarified the purpose of the retweet. Whatever her failings she’s done absolutely nothing that warrants her sacking.



This much at least should be fucking obvious. Wood for the trees, people.


----------



## platinumsage (Jun 26, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> She didn’t ‘say’ anything about Israel. She further clarified the purpose of the retweet. Whatever her failings she’s done absolutely nothing that warrants her sacking.



It's surely every senior PLP member's responsibility to know all about antisemitism in it's various guises by now. Not only did she fail to do that when orginally reading the article, she has persisted in her denials that the article is problematic in that way.

She should have thought "ooh, a mention of Israeli secret services linked to racism, this feeds into the far-right conspiracy theories of Jews starting a race war and stoking anti-black racism." 

You might think that is an unreasonable demand to put upon her, but in the position she is in and the recent history of antisemitism accusations against the Labour party, it really isn't.


----------



## Struwwelpeter (Jun 26, 2020)

I’m using the word “say” loosely to mean communicate to save typing. There, you’ve made me type it!  

This:


not-bono-ever said:


> Keep off social media you fucking imbeciles


----------



## Knotted (Jun 26, 2020)

butchersapron said:


> I'm not 4 degrees from anything. I'm responding to the idea that focusing on training by the Israeli state - in the absence of knowledge of the whole gamut of training - is anything but stupid victory involving holding hands with horrible people. Peake sadly among them.



I agree with this ie. the problem is one of holding hands with horrible people not that Peake said something a bit daft because people say daft things all the time. There's the fact that there is a kernel of truth in what was said and it is not part of a larger pattern of behaviour from Peake (as far as I know). So I don't have reason to believe that this is evidence of Peake falling down some sort of loon rabbit hole or that she is promoting the idea that Israel is somehow behind police violence is the US (or elsewhere). I read her as saying in a slightly clumsy way that police from different countries learn from each other and that the problem is a global one. There's the problem and there's also the problem with overreaction to the problem.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jun 26, 2020)

Struwwelpeter said:


> Epic fail by both RLB and KS, whatever truth might or might not exist within the retweeted article.
> 
> I’m not talking about what is morally right, just how to play the game:
> 
> ...



KS didn’t overplay anything. This is win-win for him. 

Purge his one token left winger from the cabinet. Check.

Sow despair and division amongst the labour left, leading to more resigning. Check.

Appease rightwing and centrist media. Check.

Appease supporters of Israeli apartheid. Check. 

Where’s the downside for him and his project?


----------



## quimcunx (Jun 26, 2020)

Here's what she said on fb.


----------



## platinumsage (Jun 26, 2020)

quimcunx said:


> Here's what she said on fb.
> 
> View attachment 219468



Why can't she bring herself to mention antisemitism? Instead we get the vague "it wasn’t intended to be an endorsement of all aspects of the article".


----------



## Buddy Bradley (Jun 26, 2020)

platinumsage said:


> She should have thought "ooh, a mention of Israeli secret services linked to racism, this feeds into the far-right conspiracy theories of Jews starting a race war and stoking anti-black racism."


Is that the reason it trips the anti-semitism alarms? I've never understood why any criticism of Israel is labelled anti-semitic, but I'm not really familiar with the subtleties of which keywords carry additional meanings.


----------



## mauvais (Jun 26, 2020)

Buddy Bradley said:


> Is that the reason it trips the anti-semitism alarms? I've never understood why any criticism of Israel is labelled anti-semitic, but I'm not really familiar with the subtleties of which keywords carry additional meanings.


The implication is that the US police can't/wouldn't murder people without the assistance of Israel, which is a version of 'the Jews are running the world'.


----------



## Buddy Bradley (Jun 26, 2020)

mauvais said:


> The implication is that the US police can't/wouldn't murder people without the assistance of Israel, which is a version of 'the Jews are running the world'.


Ah, ok - so it's not so much about whether or not the assertions are true, it's the implications you can read into them.


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## Jeff Robinson (Jun 26, 2020)

mauvais said:


> The implication is that the US police can't/wouldn't murder people without the assistance of Israel, which is a version of 'the Jews are running the world'.



That’s an absurd extrapolation.


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## Treacle Toes (Jun 26, 2020)

Isn't it antisemitic to associate all Jewish people with the state of Israel, going on the IHRA defintion ?

Peake's interview didn't mention Jewish people. The bit that is being focused on was a criticism of the racist policing tactics of the IDF and the disturbing similarities in the use of those tactics are use against Palestinians and Black Americans. Yes, it can be argued that she is wrong to assume that the knee choke method was specifically learnt during the training US cops receive, but that assumption isn't antisemitic IMO. If people think the absolute worst of the IDF i'm pretty sure it's more to do with what they actually do do rather than the majority of Israeli citizens being Jewish.


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## Buddy Bradley (Jun 26, 2020)

Rutita1 said:


> the majority of Israeli citizens being Jewish.


I believe it's also true that the majority of Jews are Israeli. Something like 70%, iirc.

Edit: Never mind, apparently I wasn't remembering correctly - Wikipedia says 30%, with 50% in the US.


----------



## Whagwan (Jun 26, 2020)

Rutita1 said:


> Isn't it antisemitic to associate all Jewish people with the state of Israel, going on the IHRA defintion ?



Yup, everyone doing a massive antisemitism to accuse opponents of antisemitism.


----------



## mauvais (Jun 26, 2020)

Jeff Robinson said:


> That’s an absurd extrapolation.


In isolation maybe but I don't think it is, given the world it exists in. 'It woz Mossad' comes up all the time in absurd conspiracy theories and anything like it is tarred by association. It (e.g. Mossad) being the state of Israel is much less important than it being Jews in these contexts.

Fundamentally, why is it necessary to bring Israel/Palestine into the discussion of George Floyd? Even if the claim were literally and demonstrably true, why is it important or relevant?


Rutita1 said:


> Isn't it antisemitic to associate all Jewish people with the state of Israel, going on the IHRA defintion ?


Yes, and much more using AS as a political tool rather than giving a fuck about it. But the above is why it's a small hop away from not actually being about Israel.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 26, 2020)

Buddy Bradley said:


> I believe it's also true that the majority of Jews are Israeli. Something like 70%, iirc.
> 
> Edit: Never mind, apparently I wasn't remembering correctly - Wikipedia says 30%, with 50% in the US.



What's you point? I said 'majority' (happy to be corrected if wrong) & was making a clear distinction between the actions of the state and the religion of it's citizens. You can criticise one of those things without attacking the other.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jun 26, 2020)

Rutita1 said:


> Isn't it antisemitic to associate all Jewish people with the state of Israel, going on the IHRA defintion ?



Yes but by the same definitions it is also antisemitic to criticise the Israeli state, or at least that is one of the 'examples' of antisemitism included with the definitions.


----------



## rekil (Jun 26, 2020)

Rutita1 said:


> Isn't it antisemitic to associate all Jewish people with the state of Israel, going on the IHRA defintion ?


I was looking at what the loons were saying and this is literally the pathetic gotcha line that they're taking. Who are the _real_ anti-semites etc. There is only one reason that Israel, and only Israel, will get dragged into a discussion about systemic racism and police violence in the US.


----------



## bimble (Jun 26, 2020)

This thread is depressing. Looks like nothings moved on as a result of nonstop jews in the news for the last several years.


----------



## Brainaddict (Jun 26, 2020)

I think Peake was just a bit careless in what she read/said, and her apology seems decent enough. RLB is a professional politician, should know how to talk about politics carefully and shouldn't have been such an idiot. But it illustrates what the fringes of leftist discourse so easily edge into. A friend went to her first labour party meeting and had to call someone out on referring to 'Israeli-controlled media' in the UK. I think most leftists in the UK would be well advised to SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT ISRAEL except when specifically talking about the Palestinian struggle, and even then think carefully about their language and emphasis. Israel is not the problem in the world. The Palestine conflict is one manifestation of a certain set of problems, but there are many other manifestations. There are even other militarised colonial projects supported by the Western powers. I'd also say that e.g. the war on drugs has caused as much suffering and degraded human rights much more globally than the Israel-Palestine conflict, yet somehow I hear more from leftists about Israel than I do about the war on drugs. I'm sick of it. Obviously there's nothing wrong with expressing solidarity with Palestinians, and people should do that in a thoughtful way where they actually try to work out how they can be helpful, but being anti-Israel has become this performative marker of leftism and engaging in that without thinking is bullshit.


----------



## Buddy Bradley (Jun 26, 2020)

Rutita1 said:


> What's you point? I said 'majority' (happy to be corrected if wrong) & was making a clear distinction between the actions of the state and the religion of it's citizens. You can criticise one of those things without attacking the other.


I agree with you - nobody is accused of being anti-Taoist for criticising China's actions against the Uighur Muslims. But, as rekil points out above, if it's only Israel that is getting mentioned in this context, perhaps you have to wonder why that is. Seems you can be right and wrong on this topic simultaneously.


----------



## Knotted (Jun 26, 2020)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> You're missing my point. They do train with lots of other countries, Israel included. Not normal US beat cops with Mossad or other secret services though, and Israel isn't to blame for this killing in any way.
> 
> Making those links above and beyond other countries training with the US, and suggesting the secret services of Israel (with all the conspiraloon stuff about Mossad as context) are responsible for this as they trained US cops how to do this technique is bonkers.



Nobody has said anything about Israel being to blame or anything about Mossad. Israel does not just police its civilian population it also occupies the West Bank where it uses the military and military courts to police the Palestinian population. Amnesty International mentions training from Israel's national police, military and secret services. I'm guessing that's Shin Bet not Mossad. This is not a conspiraloon theory and it is the US police who are to blame for learning from a military occupation.


----------



## NoXion (Jun 26, 2020)

rekil said:


> I was looking at what the loons were saying and this is literally the pathetic gotcha line that they're taking. Who are the _real_ anti-semites etc.



You know that arguments can be used in bad faith by certain people while still being correct, yes? Loons are gonna loon, but that doesn't change the fact that criticism of the state of Israel is twisted into AS by some on the pro-Israel side.



> There is only one reason that Israel, and only Israel, will get dragged into a discussion about systemic racism and police violence in the US.



Bullshit. The US is a (if not _the_) big player in the global military/"security"-industrial complex, and Israel is a junior partner in that venture. Systemic racism and police violence doesn't just exist in the US, it's a _global_ problem. I think it's disingenuous to pretend that these two facts are entirely disconnected.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 26, 2020)

rekil said:


> I was looking at what the loons were saying and this is literally the pathetic gotcha line that they're taking. Who are the _real_ anti-semites etc. There is only one reason that Israel, and only Israel, will get dragged into a discussion about systemic racism and police violence in the US.



Oh really? So nothing to do with the widespread use of Israeli/IDF training orgs/exchanges by the US police service? Nothing to do with them being touted as  'the best in the world' , nothing to do with these being sponsored by US & Israeli orgs? Just 'loons' making it up. Right-O.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 26, 2020)

Buddy Bradley said:


> I agree with you - nobody is accused of being anti-Taoist for criticising China's actions against the Uighur Muslims. But, as rekil points out above, if it's only Israel that is getting mentioned in this context, perhaps you have to wonder why that is. Seems you can be right and wrong on this topic simultaneously.


Do the US police force train in China? Do Chinese Military/Police orgs have training orgs in the US?


----------



## platinumsage (Jun 26, 2020)

Rutita1 said:


> Oh really? So nothing to do with the widespread use of Israeli/IDF training orgs/exchanges by the US police service? Just 'loons' making it up. Right-O.



Why bring up the fact that Israel have trained US police if you're trying to make a point about racism being global?


----------



## Buddy Bradley (Jun 26, 2020)

Rutita1 said:


> Do the US police force train in China? Do Chinese Military/Police orgs have training orgs in the US?


Given the relations between the US and China, I'm going to guess not. But, if US police forces have the budget to travel abroad for law enforcement seminars and training, it seems unlikely that the sole place they would go for that is Israel, no?


----------



## PD58 (Jun 26, 2020)

The other aspect of this for me that is missing from the discussion is that we have the worst Secretary of State for Education in my 40 years as an education professional, he is absolutely clueless; this was/is a great opportunity for the LP to show clear leadership in this area, but where was RLB when it mattered?  I do not think she has a grasp of the position and KS was also a tad pissed off when BJ got the better of him re the safe opening of schools at PMQs last week... what briefing did he get? So add this to the tweet fiasco and the sacking is no surprise. It will be interesting to see who the replacement is.


----------



## platinumsage (Jun 26, 2020)

PD58 said:


> The other aspect of this for me that is missing from the discussion is that we have the worst Secretary of State for Education in my 40 years as an education professional, he is absolutely clueless; this was/is a great opportunity for the LP to show clear leadership in this area, but where was RLB when it mattered?  I do not think she has a grasp of the position and KS was also a tad pissed off when BJ got the better of him re the safe opening of schools at PMQs last week... what briefing did he get? So add this to the tweet fiasco and the sacking is no surprise. It will be interesting to see who the replacement is.



She did a great job trying to keep schools shut apparently:


----------



## andysays (Jun 26, 2020)

It might perhaps be interesting to know how many nations' police forces both the US and Israel have reciprocal training arrangements with.

But on the face of it it's difficult to explain or justify Peake's singling out of Israel in all this, especially if she was actually trying to make a wider point about global racism and policing.


----------



## bimble (Jun 26, 2020)

If you can be bothered some people might find this of use. 
Its by an organisation that has been fighting against the military exchange program between US and Israel for a long time. Update on the Deadly Exchange campaign by JVP


----------



## PD58 (Jun 26, 2020)

platinumsage said:


> She did a great job trying to keep schools shut apparently:





Given Covid presents a great opportunity al la 44/65 (eduction acts) to look afresh at education, IMHO she was not up to it - I do wonder why she took on the role in the first place?


----------



## maomao (Jun 26, 2020)

Buddy Bradley said:


> I agree with you - nobody is accused of being anti-Taoist for criticising China's actions against the Uighur Muslims. But, as rekil points out above, if it's only Israel that is getting mentioned in this context, perhaps you have to wonder why that is. Seems you can be right and wrong on this topic simultaneously.


Daoism is not the majority religion of China nor the religion of the atheist Chinese state (there are probably more Jews in China than genuine Daoists, there are definitely more Muslims and Christians). The nationalist government of China regularly labels people anti Chinese  for opposing their actions in Xinjiang and Tibet and often implies that this is due to racism.


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## Buddy Bradley (Jun 26, 2020)

Rutita1 said:


> Do the US police force train in China? Do Chinese Military/Police orgs have training orgs in the US?





> As Shany Mor points out, one of the programs that Amnesty cites, the Georgia International Law Enforcement Exchange, also sends American police officers to the United Kingdom, the Netherlands, Italy and Greece.


----------



## belboid (Jun 26, 2020)

andysays said:


> But on the face of it it's difficult to explain or justify Peake's singling out of Israel in all this, especially if she was actually trying to make a wider point about global racism and policing.


Do you know how examples work?


----------



## platinumsage (Jun 26, 2020)

belboid said:


> Do you know how examples work?



What has the sharing of police restraint techniques got to do with global racism? It's really a strange thing to bring up unless you are implying the Israeli police were teaching the US police how to be racist or how to apply those techniques to black people.


----------



## belboid (Jun 26, 2020)

platinumsage said:


> What has the sharing of police restraint techniques got to do with global racism? It's really a strange thing to bring up unless you are implying the Israeli police were teaching the US police how to be racist or how to apply those techniques to black people.


You do like to repeat things that have already been done half a dozen times, don’t you? And you picked a really silly example to get fussy in too because if you cant see why talking about police is handy when talking about, uhh, police racism, then you need to hit yourself with a truncheon a few times till it sinks in.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jun 26, 2020)

PD58 said:


> Given Covid presents a great opportunity al la 44/65 (eduction acts) to look afresh at education, IMHO she was not up to it - I do wonder why she took on the role in the first place?



Do you work in a school? Have you read what the NEU have said about RLB?

Give me some specific examples of her failings in the role she’s been in for 2 months that have led you to your conclusion.


----------



## platinumsage (Jun 26, 2020)

belboid said:


> And you picked a really silly example to get fussy in too because if you cant see why talking about police is handy when talking about, uhh, police racism, then you need to hit yourself with a truncheon a few times till it sinks in.



She wasn't talking about police racism though, she was talking about ‘no war but the class war’ stuff. I think it was a clumsy attempt to try and link capitalist globalisation to the death of Floyd based on something she read on a website.


----------



## Big Bertha (Jun 26, 2020)

Another corbynista bites the dust!


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jun 26, 2020)

Big Bertha said:


> Another corbynista bites the dust!



Powerful analysis. Do tell us more about where you think this is all leading


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## Petcha (Jun 26, 2020)

How exactly is criticising Israel anti-semitism? Or racism? I genuinely have never got that. Personally I’ve criticised Israel for their policies since I was a youngun. The state, not the predominant religion. And I’m definitely not an anti Semite or a racist. It’s mental. Yes the actress may have got it wrong but even if she was correct I don’t see how that’s anti semitism. If I criticise Iran am i islamophobic?


----------



## belboid (Jun 26, 2020)

platinumsage said:


> She wasn't talking about police racism though, she was talking about ‘no war but the class war’ stuff. I think it was a clumsy attempt to try and link capitalist globalisation to the death of Floyd based on something she read on a website.


No she wasn’t you ludicrously inconsistent buffoon.


----------



## platinumsage (Jun 26, 2020)

belboid said:


> No she wasn’t you ludicrously inconsistent buffoon.



Right. Where previously in the interview did she mention police racism, if that’s what you believe she was walking about when she brought up this example?


----------



## CNT36 (Jun 26, 2020)

As others have said the most likely place for the police involved to have been encouraged to use this "neck restraint" is via David Grossman. Although not a particularly rare phrase that could probably be thought of even by the average copper "if you can talk you can breathe" is straight out of one of his lectures.

Amnesty USA has documented US police training in Israel by military, the police and intelligence services. They no doubt have similar relations elsewhere but if they are being taught and wanting to learn the methods used to enforce an occupation that is an issue. More of a case of we're a bunch of racist, violent arseholes lets get better at that than being made racist violent arseholes.


----------



## belboid (Jun 26, 2020)

platinumsage said:


> Right. Where previously in the interview did she mention police racism, if that’s what you believe she was walking about when she brought up this example?


It’s in her previous sentence you moron.


----------



## platinumsage (Jun 26, 2020)

belboid said:


> It’s in her previous sentence you moron.



Nope, she wasn’t talking about police racism in the sentence before mentioning the Israeli secret services.

“I don’t know how we escape that cycle that’s indoctrinated into us all,” continues the 45-year-old. “Well, we get rid of it when we get rid of capitalism as far as I’m concerned. That’s what it’s all about. The establishment has got to go. We’ve got to change it.” Born in Bolton to a lorry driver father and care worker mother, Peake is strident and expressive; if religion wasn’t anathema to her, she’d be perfect in the pulpit. “Systemic racism is a global issue,” she adds. “The tactics used by the police in America, kneeling on George Floyd’s neck, that was learnt from seminars with Israeli secret services.”


----------



## killer b (Jun 26, 2020)

Petcha said:


> How exactly is criticising Israel anti-semitism?


the most vacuous refrain of the past few years. I use it as an indicator for someone not worth engaging with cause you can guarantee it'll go precisely nowhere.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 26, 2020)

PD58 said:


> The other aspect of this for me that is missing from the discussion is that we have the worst Secretary of State for Education in my 40 years as an education professional, he is absolutely clueless; this was/is a great opportunity for the LP to show clear leadership in this area, but where was RLB when it mattered?


Exactly where she should have been - backing workers. There are many very fair criticisms of RLB but her actions as Shadow Education Minister are not one of them. At the time she was getting fired she was gearing up to speak at a mass rally of tertiary education workers.


----------



## belboid (Jun 26, 2020)

platinumsage said:


> Nope, she wasn’t talking about police racism in the sentence before mentioning the Israeli secret services.
> 
> “I don’t know how we escape that cycle that’s indoctrinated into us all,” continues the 45-year-old. “Well, we get rid of it when we get rid of capitalism as far as I’m concerned. That’s what it’s all about. The establishment has got to go. We’ve got to change it.” Born in Bolton to a lorry driver father and care worker mother, Peake is strident and expressive; if religion wasn’t anathema to her, she’d be perfect in the pulpit. “Systemic racism is a global issue,” she adds. “The tactics used by the police in America, kneeling on George Floyd’s neck, that was learnt from seminars with Israeli secret services.”


Sorry, of course systemic racism has nothing to do with the police and worldwide doesn’t imply they support each other.  You’re a bigger brain than Dominic Cummings.


----------



## platinumsage (Jun 26, 2020)

belboid said:


> Sorry, of course systemic racism has nothing to do with the police and worldwide doesn’t imply they support each other.



That’s the start of the same sentence in which she mentions Israeli secret services. She certainly didn’t talk about Israel in the context of a discussion of police racism did she? Rather it was more like what I said previously - she was talking about ‘no war but the class war’ stuff and it was a clumsy attempt to try and link capitalist globalisation to the death of Floyd based on something she read on a website.


----------



## belboid (Jun 26, 2020)

You are actually this stupid, aren’t you?


----------



## andysays (Jun 26, 2020)

belboid said:


> Do you know how examples work?


I know that when a person picks one particular example out of many  (I don't know exactly how many in this case, which was why I said it might be interesting to know) they could have chosen, the example they pick often tells us something about that person in addition to the point they think they're making.

And Peake doesn't appear to have said this is just one example of who the US police train with, she made a far more specific accusation than that.


----------



## killer b (Jun 26, 2020)

this performance of missing the point is fucking embarrassing belboid. Peake fucked up, RLB fucked up, you need to suck it up.


----------



## Knotted (Jun 26, 2020)

Brainaddict said:


> I think most leftists in the UK would be well advised to SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT ISRAEL except when specifically talking about the Palestinian struggle, and even then think carefully about their language and emphasis. Israel is not the problem in the world.



In general yes, but it is fundamentally healthy to see things in common between eg. BLM and the Palestinian struggle and highlighting links between the American state and Israeli state when they actually exist can be useful. As can learning from one another's plights. Scrapping what maybe a useful conversation just because it harms the Labour Party is not on.

By the way some people on here think that there is no reason to think that the American police have a particular fascination with Israeli policing tactics. Apart from that the state department already have a particular, irrational fascination with Israeli intelligence (they seem to think Israeli analysts are the fount of all wisdom for all things Arab), Israel is a country that has recently faced two uprisings and continues to face attacks on its military and civilians (knife wielding & car attacks) and can apply force with impunity while maintaining a liberal democratic political system roughly similar the US's. Of course they love it.

I don't know what these Israeli training groups teach, and yes it seems unlikely that they teach restraining techniques but I wish people (not you Brainaddict) would stop just guessing that what has been taught is something banal and irrelevant to the George Floyd case. I wish people would stop making the most ungenerous assumptions about Maxine Peake's motivations. Uncalled for, unhelpful and does nothing to combat anti-Semitism. What helps for the latter is to show what the loons are actually saying so we know not to accidentally feed them, which I'm willing to agree Maxine Peake did. So a thankyou to rekil for that.


----------



## belboid (Jun 26, 2020)

killer b said:


> this performance of missing the point is fucking embarrassing belboid. Peake fucked up, RLB fucked up, you need to suck it up.


sorry mister reasonable judge.

Peake made a mistake and corrected it. But her mistake was hardly a 'anti-semitic conspiracy theory.' It's just a minor mistake.  Any idiot pretending otherwise is being daft.


----------



## killer b (Jun 26, 2020)

Funny how the recent history of the Labour Party is crowded with _minor mistakes_ that can be so easily mistaken for antisemitic conspiracy theories.


----------



## platinumsage (Jun 26, 2020)

belboid said:


> sorry mister reasonable judge.
> 
> Peake made a mistake and corrected it. But her mistake was hardly a 'anti-semitic conspiracy theory.' It's just a minor mistake.  Any idiot pretending otherwise is being daft.



It's not so much about whether Peake made a mistake, it's whether RLB should have identified it as such, and realised it could be seen as being anti-semitic. Something which she still has spectacularly failed to appreciate, even after years of this stuff.


----------



## belboid (Jun 26, 2020)

only by morons and those blatantly doing so to stir shit.  Funny that


----------



## platinumsage (Jun 26, 2020)

belboid said:


> only by morons and those blatantly doing so to stir shit.  Funny that



How has blaming accusations of anti-semitism on morons and shit-stirrers worked out for the Labour left exactly?


----------



## killer b (Jun 26, 2020)

platinumsage said:


> How has blaming accusations of anti-semitism on morons and shit-stirrers worked out for the Labour left exactly?


in a complete and total rout. it's over for them all, and it's belboid's fault.


----------



## kebabking (Jun 26, 2020)

belboid said:


> only by morons and those blatantly doing so to stir shit.  Funny that



Actually, I was going to say that such things were only _missed _by morons and those with rattling closets - or anti-Semitic murals....

Funny that.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 26, 2020)

platinumsage said:


> It's not so much about whether Peake made a mistake, it's whether RLB should have identified it as such, and realised it could be seen as being anti-semitic. Something which she still has spectacularly failed to appreciate, even after years of this stuff.


being as the zionists have taught the americans torture techniques in the past it was not beyond the realms of possibility that they might have shared this other technique. but what should have raised eyebrows was the claim of it being shared by some secret service.


----------



## belboid (Jun 26, 2020)

how has doing anything worked out for the labour left?  Daft argument. 

Still, facts dont matter now, its all about perception.  So lets shut up about apartheid and just ignore it.


----------



## platinumsage (Jun 26, 2020)

belboid said:


> So lets shut up about apartheid and just ignore it.



I'll just quote this from the link bimble posted earlier today:

*Making connections between the U.S. and Israel without context can do harm*
Highlighting these police exchange programs without enough context or depth can end up harming our movements for justice. Suggesting that Israel is the start or source of American police violence or racism shifts the blame from the United States to Israel. This obscures the fundamental responsibility and nature of the U.S., and harms Black people and Black-led struggle. It also furthers an antisemitic ideology. White supremacists look for any opportunity to glorify and advance American anti-Black racism, and any chance to frame Jews as secretly controlling and manipulating the world. Taking police exchanges out of context provides fodder for those racist and antisemitic tropes.


----------



## Struwwelpeter (Jun 26, 2020)

There are parallels:

"White lives matter" - of course they do, but in the context of BLM, it is at best crass and ignorant, at worst a catch phrase chanted by neo-nazis.
"Criticism of Israel is not criticism of Jews" - of course it isn't, but in the context of anti-semitism in the Labour party and anti-semitic conspiraloons all over the place, such criticism is often crass and ignorant at best, at worst, a dog whistle to neo-nazis.  
Anyone in politics should be able to understand those nuances.  Unfortunately the conservatives are full of people who don't get 1 and the labour party is full of people who don't get 2.


----------



## Knotted (Jun 26, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> being as the zionists have taught the americans torture techniques in the past it was not beyond the realms of possibility that they might have shared this other technique. but what should have raised eyebrows was the claim of it being shared by some secret service.



That claim comes from Amnesty International (or rather intelligence services)



> But what hasn't received as much attention is where Baltimore police received training on crowd control, use of force and surveillance: Israel's national police, military and intelligence services.











						Where Do Many Police Departments Train? In Israel
					

U.S. law enforcement agencies need partners for effective training to strengthen their identified weak areas. Israel is not such a partner.




					www.amnestyusa.org


----------



## LDC (Jun 26, 2020)

Just been shown a friend's FB feed/timeline/whatever it is, quite depressing; totally full of outright denial, refusing to acknowledge any problem with AS at all in the party, repeatedly using shit arguments to defend Peake's statement, unconditional love for RLB.

From all areas the overwhelming air is one of 'my side can do no wrong' tribalism rather than any sensible discussion.


----------



## belboid (Jun 26, 2020)

platinumsage said:


> I'll just quote this from the link bimble posted earlier today:
> 
> *Making connections between the U.S. and Israel without context can do harm*
> Highlighting these police exchange programs without enough context or depth can end up harming our movements for justice. Suggesting that Israel is the start or source of American police violence or racism shifts the blame from the United States to Israel. This obscures the fundamental responsibility and nature of the U.S., and harms Black people and Black-led struggle. It also furthers an antisemitic ideology. White supremacists look for any opportunity to glorify and advance American anti-Black racism, and any chance to frame Jews as secretly controlling and manipulating the world. Taking police exchanges out of context provides fodder for those racist and antisemitic tropes.



ffs.  She did make a context.  The problem was it was wrong, so she needed to say sorry and correct it - which she did.  And RLB was perfectly happy to correct her comment too. In a snae world that would be the end of it,


----------



## belboid (Jun 26, 2020)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Just been shown a friend's FB feed/timeline/whatever it is, quite depressing; totally full of outright denial, refusing to acknowledge any problem with AS at all in the party, repeatedly using shit arguments to defend Peake's statement, love for RLB.
> 
> The overwhelming air is one of 'my side can do no wrong' tribalism rather than any sensible discussion.


try the Labour Against the Witch-hunt site - 'solidarity with RLB even tho she had it coming for not defending Jackie Walker' being the gist of it

Thankfully nearly all of my friends and comrades have had far more sensible discussions about the matter.


----------



## platinumsage (Jun 26, 2020)

belboid said:


> ffs.  She did make a context.  The problem was it was wrong, so she needed to say sorry and correct it - which she did.  And RLB was perfectly happy to correct her comment too. In a snae world that would be the end of it,



No context whatsoever. Literally a bolt out of the blue. RLB not even mentioning anti-semitism, total failure.


----------



## killer b (Jun 26, 2020)

Maybe in a world where this exact issue hadn't been a gaping wound in the side of the party for 5 years, and partly responsible for a massive election loss (and definitely responsible for the left being booted out of any positions of real influence in the party) it would have been the end of it.


----------



## belboid (Jun 26, 2020)

platinumsage said:


> No context whatsoever. Literally a bolt out of the blue. RLB not even mentioning anti-semitism, total failure.


considering your passionate support for socialism previously i will take this without any pinch of salt whatsoever and completely believe that you mean it genuinely


----------



## belboid (Jun 26, 2020)

killer b said:


> (and definitely responsible for the left being booted out of any positions of real influence in the party)


now that is definitely bollocks.  Fucking europe did the left internally, and the usual bullshit shenanigans about how to choose NEC nominees. AS had a very minor influence on those.


----------



## bimble (Jun 26, 2020)

belboid said:


> only by morons and those blatantly doing so to stir shit.  Funny that


This is just so shit. Anyone who thought that what was written by that actor is dodgy (instead of a simple error made whilst picking at random an example of how police brutality is an international problem ) is either a moron or a shit stirring liar. Brilliant.


----------



## mauvais (Jun 26, 2020)

belboid said:


> ffs.  She did make a context.  The problem was it was wrong, so she needed to say sorry and correct it - which she did.  And RLB was perfectly happy to correct her comment too. In a snae world that would be the end of it,


In a context-free world that might be the end of it.

But there is context and the context is the Jews are _the _most played group of people in modern UK politics.

A whole bunch of shit history meant that over decades and centuries they got the blame for the ills of the world.
Many on the left absorbed that and propagated it themselves.
The right used AS a weapon against the left without giving an actual fuck about AS.
The left, under siege, decided to defend themselves and in doing so threw Jews under the bus and downplayed, ignored or even victim blamed their suffering.
The right sabotaged any remaining positive left efforts to tackle AS and got a great deal of political capital out of it.
Various other entities like the political Jewish leadership, and apparent 'onlookers' like the Tories have made great gains from it all again at the expense of normal people.
Much of the left failed to stop and call any of this what it is, weaponisation of AS - itself AS - in which they have been complicit. As we see in RLBgate, they're still arguing the 'yes but' toss over partisan factional issues, at the expense of Jews.

You know all this though. And none of this is going to be ended by Labour party or electoral bullshit, it's going to be resolved by taking some moral responsibility.


----------



## killer b (Jun 26, 2020)

belboid said:


> now that is definitely bollocks.  Fucking europe did the left internally, and the usual bullshit shenanigans about how to choose NEC nominees. AS had a very minor influence on those.


I guess it's hard to face up to being responsible for torpedoing the only chance of a socialist government in your lifetime.


----------



## belboid (Jun 26, 2020)

mauvais said:


> In a context-free world that might be the end of it.
> 
> But there is context and the context is the Jews are _the _most played group of people in modern UK politics.


i think there may be one or two muslims who dispute that. 



> A whole bunch of shit history meant that over decades and centuries they got the blame for the ills of the world.
> Many on the left absorbed that and propagated it themselves.
> The right used AS a weapon against the left without giving an actual fuck about AS.
> The left, under siege, decided to defend themselves and in doing so threw Jews under the bus and downplayed, ignored or even victim blamed their suffering.
> ...


When issues are used in a partisan way, any response is bound to also be partisan. Because politics isn't just an academic exchange of views. Its shit but we cant just pretend it doesn't happen. Taking 'moral responsibility' wouldn't change that.


----------



## belboid (Jun 26, 2020)

killer b said:


> I guess it's hard to face up to being responsible for torpedoing the only chance of a socialist government in your lifetime.


yup, it was me that made Labour adopt it looking both ways position on Europe and to throw everything but the kitchen sink into the manifesto. If only they'd taken up my call for a people's militia we'd be  in a socialist paradise by now.,


----------



## killer b (Jun 26, 2020)

It's hot outside again today - maybe you should go for a swim. I found a river that would suit you.


----------



## Brainaddict (Jun 26, 2020)

Struwwelpeter said:


> There are parallels:
> 
> "White lives matter" - of course they do, but in the context of BLM, it is at best crass and ignorant, at worst a catch phrase chanted by neo-nazis.
> "Criticism of Israel is not criticism of Jews" - of course it isn't, but in the context of anti-semitism in the Labour party and anti-semitic conspiraloons all over the place, such criticism is often crass and ignorant at best, at worst, a dog whistle to neo-nazis.
> Anyone in politics should be able to understand those nuances.  Unfortunately the conservatives are full of people who don't get 1 and the labour party is full of people who don't get 2.


Yes, twitter is full of people_ not getting_ why RLB should have spotted Peake's error. And leftist magazines that are sometimes quite decent are digging their heels in.

I have still found no-one to answer me about why the UK left spends about 20x more time talking about Israel than the war on drugs - a racism-based vector for imperialist power that has fucked up (and is fucking up) more countries than a racist Israeli colonist could dream of. I had a big fight with a friend about it last year and they wouldn't give ground on it, but all it confirmed to me was that they couldn't argue rationally about it and - for whatever reason - debating whether or not so much time should be spent shit-talking Israel threatened their identity. Of course the colonisation of Palestine is fucked up, but being _against Israel_ should not be a key part of your leftist identity. It needs to stop.


----------



## bimble (Jun 26, 2020)

killer b said:


> It's hot outside again today - maybe you should go for a swim. I found a river that would suit you.
> 
> View attachment 219510


Where’s that  ?


----------



## NoXion (Jun 26, 2020)

bimble said:


> Where’s that  ?



A famous river in Egypt.


----------



## bimble (Jun 26, 2020)




----------



## belboid (Jun 26, 2020)

bimble said:


> Where’s that  ?



de nial, of course.


if you (KB) really think labours defeat (and the lefts within labour) was all down to AS, I cant help you, but you are delusional. And that blinds you to labours  other failings.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 26, 2020)

Brainaddict said:


> Yes, twitter is full of people_ not getting_ why RLB should have spotted Peake's error. And leftist magazines that are sometimes quite decent are digging their heels in.
> 
> I have still found no-one to answer me about why the UK left spends about 20x more time talking about Israel than the war on drugs - a racism-based vector for imperialist power that has fucked up (and is fucking up) more countries than a racist Israeli colonist could dream of. I had a big fight with a friend about it last year and they wouldn't give ground on it, but all it confirmed to me was that they couldn't argue rationally about it and - for whatever reason - debating whether or not so much time should be spent shit-talking Israel threatened their identity. Of course the colonisation of Palestine is fucked up, but being _against Israel_ should not be a key part of your leftist identity. It needs to stop.


er your conclusion doesn't follow from the arguments you put forwards.


----------



## Brainaddict (Jun 26, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> er your conclusion doesn't follow from the arguments you put forwards.


I'm saying that the somewhat unhealthy obsession with Israel has gone so far it has become an identity issue for many. And that's bad.


----------



## bimble (Jun 26, 2020)

belboid said:


> When issues are used in a partisan way, any response is bound to also be partisan. Because politics isn't just an academic exchange of views. Its shit but we cant just pretend it doesn't happen. Taking 'moral responsibility' wouldn't change that.



This is quite interesting. Do you feel that you have been backed into a corner now where in order to stick up for your embattled team you _have to_ call anyone who thought what the actor said was dodgy a moron or a shit stirring liar? As in you feel theres no other option ? Not having a go right now, genuinely curious.


----------



## killer b (Jun 26, 2020)

belboid said:


> de nial, of course.
> 
> 
> if you (KB) really think labours defeat (and the lefts within labour) was all down to AS, I cant help you, but you are delusional. And that blinds you to labours  other failings.


It isn't all down to it you bell, any more than it's all down to any single cause. It's certainly a potent part of the mix though.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 26, 2020)

Brainaddict said:


> . Of course the colonisation of Palestine is fucked up, but being _against Israel_ should not be a key part of your leftist identity. It needs to stop.



I've always thought it is more to do with anti-aparthied campaigns/movements being very much apart of 'leftist' traditions . In living memory those against SA apartheid for example. Boycotts, protests, lobbying, the lot. Why isn't that an okay stance to take on Israel?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 26, 2020)

Brainaddict said:


> I'm saying that the somewhat unhealthy obsession with Israel has gone so far it has become an identity issue for many. And that's bad.


i think you'll find that lots of people arrive at their opinion of the zionist entity based not on it being part of of an identikit left identity but on what the zionists have actually done. on what people think of them doing that. i started forming my own opinion of the ze based on what happened in lebanon, especially at sabra and shatila, and while i wish the massacres there had been aberrations so much of what the ze has done subsequently has confirmed my view. the history of the ze & the apartheid regime in south africa also places it in a camp which i think most people, and not just lefties, would find objectionable.


----------



## belboid (Jun 26, 2020)

bimble said:


> This is quite interesting. Do you feel that you have been backed into a corner now where in order to stick up for your embattled team you _have to_ call anyone who thought what the actor said was dodgy a moron or a shit stirring liar? As in you feel theres no other option ? Not having a go right now, genuinely curious.


no


----------



## Smangus (Jun 26, 2020)

The "trouble" with zero tolerance policies is that they leave no room for manoeuvre or interpretation if you are to be taken seriously on it.  On stating he had such a policy Starmer didn't leave himself any choice really. 

The fact it is RLB is a bit irrelevant as he would have had to kick the 1st sniff of AS into touch whoever it was, given his previous statements. This is part of a pitch from him to voters, not the LP.

Surprised RLB wasn't more savvy though, or then again maybe I'm not, dunno.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Jun 26, 2020)

Brainaddict said:


> Yes, twitter is full of people_ not getting_ why RLB should have spotted Peake's error. And leftist magazines that are sometimes quite decent are digging their heels in.
> 
> I have still found no-one to answer me about why the UK left spends about 20x more time talking about Israel than the war on drugs - a racism-based vector for imperialist power that has fucked up (and is fucking up) more countries than a racist Israeli colonist could dream of. I had a big fight with a friend about it last year and they wouldn't give ground on it, but all it confirmed to me was that they couldn't argue rationally about it and - for whatever reason - debating whether or not so much time should be spent shit-talking Israel threatened their identity. Of course the colonisation of Palestine is fucked up, but being _against Israel_ should not be a key part of your leftist identity. It needs to stop.


I guess it's because of the Jews controlling banking stuff. maybe even a bit of anti organised religion as well.

He was always going to get rid of Long-Bailey, now he gets to look decisive and put a hard stop on the AS stuff as well.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 26, 2020)

Back to RLB...she has fallen foul of her own standards it seems...



>


----------



## mauvais (Jun 26, 2020)

belboid said:


> When issues are used in a partisan way, any response is bound to also be partisan.


This is exactly why it continues, and why it probably can't be dealt with by the left within and around Labour. The compulsion to respond in a partisan way is both harmful and self-destructive and they/you need to find a way out of that cycle.


----------



## belboid (Jun 26, 2020)

Brainaddict said:


> I'm saying that the somewhat unhealthy obsession with Israel has gone so far it has become an identity issue for many. And that's bad.


Some said that folk were obsessed with opposing apartheid south africa too, which led them to ignoring other appalling governments in Africa.  Those people were obviously full of shit.

Israel has been an international cause for the left since 1948. It is, particularly since 67, the most notable of the 'arch-reactionary' states still standing. The South African and Chilean regimes fell (in part thanks to international support and solidarity). It is the last of the monolithic reactionary states that are on 'the west's side.'   It IS a settler colonial state. These are just facts, the religion of the state is irrelevant to that. It is the most recent state to be established on an explicitly racist manner (a land with no people.....).  It would be absurd if Labour politicians and supporters just stopped talking about it, and would be acquiescing to apartheid.


----------



## Knotted (Jun 26, 2020)

Few people will defend how the war on drugs fucked up eg. Guatemala assuming they knew about it if the first place. There isn't anything immediate to push against on that one. With Israel the government tacitly supports even Cast Lead/Protective Edge and Israel's supporters push for even firmer support and this creates a leftwing backlash. There was genuine widespread outrage over that and people educated themselves about the Nakba etc. After Cast Lead there was a sense that attitudes were changing so a lot people got enthusiastic about it. It's also a campaign that has been around for decades. It's old, ongoing, brutal and part of the topical everyday conversation with people taking up camps on both sides.

There are also various loons obsessing about the topic as well of course and they add to it. And the whole discussion is getting stigmatised because of them and the backlash against them. There's very little anybody can do about the situation on the ground. BDS was always hopelessly overrated. And there's lots of cogs furiously spinning but not contacting with anything. For some people it becomes more about attacking the other side and that helps the loons.

I think if anything now it is a deeply unfashionable topic for some on the left and I think that's why we are seeing a backlash against the mere mention of Israel outside of carefully delineated discussion. People on this very thread are saying it is part of a general problem with the left even when they can't identify specifics.


----------



## Idris2002 (Jun 26, 2020)

belboid said:


> Some said that folk were obsessed with opposing apartheid south africa too, which led them to ignoring other appalling governments in Africa.  Those people were obviously full of shit.
> 
> Israel has been an international cause for the left since 1948. It is, particularly since 67, the most notable of the 'arch-reactionary' states still standing. The South African and Chilean regimes fell (in part thanks to international support and solidarity). It is the last of the monolithic reactionary states that are on 'the west's side.'   It IS a settler colonial state. These are just facts, the religion of the state is irrelevant to that. It is the most recent state to be established on an explicitly racist manner (a land with no people.....).  It would be absurd if Labour politicians and supporters just stopped talking about it, and would be acquiescing to apartheid.


It is a settler colonial state, and the analogies with SA and Rhodesia are real and significant. . . but the differences are just as real and maybe even more important. The Rhodesians experienced a humiliating failure with their "Settlers '74" campaign, which was supposed to boost the white minority's numbers via crash white immigration. It attracted no major numbers at all. 

Compare that with the regular demographic expansion of the Israeli population. There is of course, a _certain something _that drives Jewish immigration to that country. . .


----------



## Brainaddict (Jun 26, 2020)

Rutita1 said:


> I've always thought it is more to do with anti-aparthied campaigns/movements being very much apart of 'leftist' traditions . In living memory those against SA apartheid for example. Boycotts, protests, lobbying, the lot. Why isn't that an okay stance to take on Israel?


Maybe because it only seems to be Israel now, and has been for all my adult life. Israel is not the devil. If I were to point a finger at a country that has had the most damaging effect on the world in recent years, and which 'we' are complicit in the damage they do, it would be Saudi Arabia. But there are so many other fucked up things happening in the world too. 

A slightly different point, but what does it looks like to Israelis do you think that the left _just happens_ to have got obsessed with their country, far more so than any other?


----------



## platinumsage (Jun 26, 2020)

Idris2002 said:


> It is a settler colonial state, and the analogies with SA and Rhodesia are real and significant. . . but the differences are just as real and maybe even more important. The Rhodesians experienced a humiliating failure with their "Settlers '74" campaign, which was supposed to boost the white minority's numbers via crash white immigration. It attracted no major numbers at all.
> 
> Compare that with the regular demographic expansion of the Israeli population. There is of course, a _certain something _that drives Jewish immigration to that country. . .



Apartheid South Africa was easy to oppose, there being no justification for any of it, nothing about self-defence against surrounding hostile states, or establishing a homeland after centuries of brutal oppression.


----------



## Brainaddict (Jun 26, 2020)

Knotted said:


> Few people will defend how the war on drugs fucked up eg. Guatemala assuming they knew about it if the first place. There isn't anything immediate to push against on that one.


I'm not sure you're paying attention. The war on drugs has totally fucked, within the last twenty years: Colombia, Mexico, the Phillipines, Thailand and Myanmar. And I'm talking just about the countries that got to extreme levels of fuckedupness, not even those like the US and Britain where it is merely a key driver of racist violence by the authorities.


----------



## Idris2002 (Jun 26, 2020)

platinumsage said:


> Apartheid South Africa was easy to oppose, there being no justification for any of it, nothing about self-defence against surrounding hostile states, or establishing a homeland after centuries of brutal oppression.


Also the ideology of white supremacy in SA never overcame the bittterness and division between the Afrikaners and the English. There's nothing comparable in Israel - there may be some needle between Ashkenazic and Sephardic communities (at least in the past - is it true today?) but it's hardly the same as what happened in SA.


----------



## ska invita (Jun 26, 2020)

Brainaddict said:


> I have still found no-one to answer me about why the UK left spends about 20x more time talking about Israel than the war on drugs - a racism-based vector for imperialist power that has fucked up (and is fucking up) more countries than a racist Israeli colonist could dream of. I had a big fight with a friend about it last year and they wouldn't give ground on it, but all it confirmed to me was that they couldn't argue rationally about it and - for whatever reason - debating whether or not so much time should be spent shit-talking Israel threatened their identity. Of course the colonisation of Palestine is fucked up, but being _against Israel_ should not be a key part of your leftist identity. It needs to stop.



My understanding is that Britain's history is closely tied to Israel particularly, and the wider Middle East, in a way it isnt to Colombia or Mexico
Balfour Decleration of 1917 a key starting point, though you could go back to the crusades if you really wanted
Continued Anglo-American warfaring in the middle east throughout the following century
Israel's strong connection with the US brings it into the Anglo-political sphere (somewhat distinct from Latin America)
A well established Palestinian solidarity campaign - chronologically running alongside the Anti-Apartheid movement
A major global political focus on the region, politically and in reporting throughout the second half of the twentieth century, as a flashpoint and cornerstone of middle eastern tensions more generally
...and so on. Im sure there's plenty more that could be said.  Balfour Deceleration particularly makes Britain politically responsible for what continues to happen in Israel, IMO.


----------



## Brainaddict (Jun 26, 2020)

I know this looks like whataboutery. But Israel is not the devil, that's the point. Absolutely nothing is gained by acting as though it is. It certainly doesn't impact on the behavour of Israel as a state.


----------



## belboid (Jun 26, 2020)

platinumsage said:


> Apartheid South Africa was easy to oppose, there being no justification for any of it, nothing about self-defence against surrounding hostile states, or establishing a homeland after centuries of brutal oppression.


SA frequently used defense against hostile states as an excuse for its repression and apartheid justified itself through its origins in the oppression of dutch calvinists by catholics.


----------



## Knotted (Jun 26, 2020)

Yeah you're right it is an underrated issue. I don't think many people realise how much it fuels the criminal gangs.


----------



## Brainaddict (Jun 26, 2020)

ska invita said:


> My understanding is that Britain's history is closely tied to Israel particularly, and the wider Middle East, in a way it isnt to Colombia or Mexico


The British left shows no interest in the activities of the state in India, literally created by the British and still behaving as a violent colonial entity in tribal areas. There should be a much closer tie, historically, considering the hundreds of years of the Raj.

I'm going to leave this argument here because I have other things to do and I've probably made enough enemies for the day.


----------



## Knotted (Jun 26, 2020)

platinumsage said:


> Apartheid South Africa was easy to oppose, there being no justification for any of it, nothing about self-defence against surrounding hostile states, or establishing a homeland after centuries of brutal oppression.



Actually there was all of that. Completely part of the pro-apartheid rhetoric. "Boerehaat"


----------



## bellaozzydog (Jun 26, 2020)

killer b said:


> Funny how the recent history of the Labour Party is crowded with _minor mistakes_ that can be so easily mistaken for antisemitic conspiracy theories.



 excellent, can you evidence this litany of minor anti-semitism


----------



## killer b (Jun 26, 2020)

Brainaddict said:


> The British left shows no interest in the activities of the state in India, literally created by the British and still behaving as a violent colonial entity in tribal areas. There should be a much closer tie, historically, considering the hundreds of years of the Raj.


tbf one of the stories of the election was Labour apparently losing the british indian vote because of their attitude to the Modi government


----------



## belboid (Jun 26, 2020)

Idris2002 said:


> It is a settler colonial state, and the analogies with SA and Rhodesia are real and significant. . . but the differences are just as real and maybe even more important. The Rhodesians experienced a humiliating failure with their "Settlers '74" campaign, which was supposed to boost the white minority's numbers via crash white immigration. It attracted no major numbers at all.
> 
> Compare that with the regular demographic expansion of the Israeli population. There is of course, a _certain something _that drives Jewish immigration to that country. . .


Yes, it is easy to understand why many wanted the creation of a state of Israel. And it is easy to see why many still consider it is attractive to many jews.  Of course the black jews get treated fairly appallingly too, but that is by the by. The tragedy is, as more and more move to Israel, the possibilities for any kind of two state settlement move from unlikely to impossible. The occupied territories will never be handed back so all the Palestinians would be left with is a lousy set up of Bantustans.  As Israel has expanded, the left within the country has shrunk.  Opposition to Israeli militarisation and occupation has shrunk to almost nothing. It's fucking tragic.


----------



## killer b (Jun 26, 2020)

bellaozzydog said:


> excellent, can you evidence this litany of minor anti-semitism


lol get to fuck.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 26, 2020)

Brainaddict said:


> Maybe because it only seems to be Israel now, and has been for all my adult life. Israel is not the devil. If I were to point a finger at a country that has had the most damaging effect on the world in recent years, and which 'we' are complicit in the damage they do, it would be Saudi Arabia. But there are so many other fucked up things happening in the world too.
> 
> A slightly different point, but what does it looks like to Israelis do you think that the left _just happens_ to have got obsessed with their country, far more so than any other?


i am very surprised by your identification of saudi arabia when if i was to point a finger at a country that has had the most damaging effect on the world etc i think i'd point towards westminster. being as britain has been complicit in the things which have _really_ fucked the world in recent years, things like selling weapons to saudi arabia (let's after all blame the seller), things like supporting the united states in its lunatic military adventures and lining up alongside very few countries in the invasion of iraq which created waves the final effects of which we have not yet seen, things like supporting countries like the ze in international institutions like the un. and this is before the uk cheerleading for and participating in the toppling of gadaffi and creation of a situation which looks today like it's going to be a bloody big war potentially involving countries from across the middle east.

it's never a great surprise to me that people don't pay that much attention, never see this country, as a very fucking big problem for the world. every government we've had in my lifetime has always wanted to punch above its weight. has always wanted to retain the ability to fight over the other side of the world. i think this country has been involved in more wars since 1945 than any other. and its always been very willing to sell not only weaponry but equipment whose only purpose is torture to repressive regimes. 

things are always sexier when you see them from afar. but perhaps you ought to look at matters rather closer to home.


----------



## bellaozzydog (Jun 26, 2020)

killer b said:


> lol get to fuck.



I didn’t think so


----------



## platinumsage (Jun 26, 2020)

Knotted said:


> Actually there was all of that. Completely part of the pro-apartheid rhetoric. "Boerehaat"



No, I'm not talking about self-justification, but the ease by which the left could oppose apartheid South Africa without crossing any fine lines into racism. Anyone claiming SA and Israel are directly comparable is wrong, because they're not.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 26, 2020)

ska invita said:


> My understanding is that Britain's history is closely tied to Israel particularly, and the wider Middle East, in a way it isnt to Colombia or Mexico
> Balfour Decleration of 1917 a key starting point, though you could go back to the crusades if you really wanted
> Continued Anglo-American warfaring in the middle east throughout the following century
> Israel's strong connection with the US brings it into the Anglo-political sphere (somewhat distinct from Latin America)
> ...


not to mention being the former colonial power


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 26, 2020)

Brainaddict said:


> Maybe because it only seems to be Israel now, and has been for all my adult life.


 So you accept it isn't new or particually unusal given historical 'leftist' perspective on other apartheid regimes.



> Israel is not the devil. If I were to point a finger at a country that has had the most damaging effect on the world in recent years, and which 'we' are complicit in the damage they do, it would be Saudi Arabia. But there are so many other fucked up things happening in the world too.



Can you lose the silly 'not the devil' stuff? Who has said this on this thread? How is that helping the discussion?
Yes they are lots of fucked up things, yes there is criticism about other places too. My opinion is that the UK's relationship both past and present with Israel, and it's relationship with the US is what keeps it much further front in people's minds and frame of reference.  This includes both the historical relationship both places have with Jewish immigration etc and our Jewish communities.



> ]A slightly different point, but what does it looks like to Israelis do you think that the left _just happens_ to have got obsessed with their country, far more so than any other?



I imagine many Israelis see it for what it is, not 'an obsession with their country', but legitimate challenge & criticism. I say that given how many I've read/seen over the years speaking out on the issues. Other will of course see it differently given they are not speaking out about the human right's abuses and the regime anyway.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 26, 2020)

Brainaddict said:


> Maybe because it only seems to be Israel now, and has been for all my adult life. Israel is not the devil. If I were to point a finger at a country that has had the most damaging effect on the world in recent years, and which 'we' are complicit in the damage they do, it would be Saudi Arabia. But there are so many other fucked up things happening in the world too.
> 
> A slightly different point, but what does it looks like to Israelis do you think that the left _just happens_ to have got obsessed with their country, far more so than any other?


But apartheid South Africa didn't have the most damaging effect _on the world_ of any country in the world in its years of existence either, surely? Why is that the measure? Arguments against taking a stance against Israel and in favour of the Palestinians always seem to come down to whatabouttery. Even the Israeli govt does it - _What about the non-democracies that surround us? Singling us out is anitsemitism. _


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 26, 2020)

platinumsage said:


> No, I'm not talking about self-justification, but the ease by which the left could oppose apartheid South Africa without crossing any fine lines into racism. Anyone claiming SA and Israel are directly comparable is wrong, because they're not.


and they're not because...


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 26, 2020)

Brainaddict said:


> I'm going to leave this argument here because I have other things to do and I've probably made enough enemies for the day.



Please stop being so dramatic. Enemies? This has been one of the most civil, measured conversations I have seen on Urban in a long time in the politics forum TBH. 😁


----------



## Wilf (Jun 26, 2020)

belboid said:


> Do you know how examples work?


To me, the more interesting question is *why *can't Israel be used as an example. Why, if say you are wanting to give an illustration of police violence, it can't just be in the bag of examples along with the Russian cops, the Chinese cops etc?


----------



## belboid (Jun 26, 2020)

platinumsage said:


> No, I'm not talking about self-justification, but the ease by which the left could oppose apartheid South Africa without crossing any fine lines into racism. Anyone claiming SA and Israel are directly comparable is wrong, because they're not.


Well, they still are, it just means they are not exact copies. But of course they are _comparable.   _If you like, Israel is more like Marcus Garvey's _Back to Africa _call, understandable but completely wrong.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 26, 2020)

Brainaddict said:


> The British left shows no interest in the activities of the state in India, literally created by the British and still behaving as a violent colonial entity in tribal areas. There should be a much closer tie, historically, considering the hundreds of years of the Raj.
> 
> I'm going to leave this argument here because I have other things to do and I've probably made enough enemies for the day.


er the raj lasted from 1858 to 1947 and refers to rule by the british crown on the indian subcontinent.

given the length of time, some hundreds of years, in which britain had a presence on the indian subcontinent i thought this might be widely known.


----------



## platinumsage (Jun 26, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> and they're not because...



Well, I feel like I'm going around in circles here but if you want to compare the holocaust with black migrants entering South African cities after WWII as equivalent justifications for maintaining an ethnic state, then I'm not going to stop you.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 26, 2020)

Brainaddict said:


> I know this looks like whataboutery. But Israel is not the devil, that's the point. Absolutely nothing is gained by acting as though it is. It certainly doesn't impact on the behavour of Israel as a state.



It does look like whataboutery because it is especially given you insistence that 'it's not the devil' which no one has said or implied on this thread. It's not the point, it's a exaggeration and pointless.


----------



## killer b (Jun 26, 2020)

bellaozzydog said:


> I didn’t think so


dude, if you still need it explaining to you now, there's nothing I can say that'll make you see it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 26, 2020)

platinumsage said:


> Well, I feel like I'm going around in circle here but if you want to compare the holocaust with black migrants entering South African cities after WWII as equivalent justifications for maintaining an ethnic state, then I'm not going to stop you.


i feel like i'm knocking my head against a brick wall because it is quite clear that both the ze and asa had much in common, such as the racism on which both were founded.


----------



## platinumsage (Jun 26, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> i feel like i'm knocking my head against a brick wall because it is quite clear that both the ze and asa had much in common, such as the racism on which both were founded.



There may be things in common, as there are with any two things, but there are differences. And those differences are extremely significant when we're talking about left-wing people being accused of racism.


----------



## belboid (Jun 26, 2020)

One of the lefts main criticisms of the foundation of Israel was that it would do nothing to stop wider anti-semitism and its establishment would cause an immediate backlash from the surrounding states (that could well then fall into anti-semitism), and it would be used to weaken those states.  And they were 100% right.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jun 26, 2020)

Good take.


----------



## ska invita (Jun 26, 2020)

Brainaddict said:


> The British left shows no interest in the activities of the state in India, literally created by the British and still behaving as a violent colonial entity in tribal areas. There should be a much closer tie, historically, considering the hundreds of years of the Raj.



I have also noticed a lack of political conversation about the region, not a lot gets published on it, and we have a fairly sizeable population in the UK of people with Pakistani, Indian and Bangladeshi heritage.  Hard to say exactly why that is, these things are complex, and there are likely many factors that could be pointed to.

The other factor re Palestinian rights is this is a big debate in the USA, with many prominent US authors and activists of jewish heritage raising the issues, and because of language and historical cultural links that gives energy to it in the UK.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 26, 2020)

ska invita said:


> I have also noticed a lack of political conversation about the region, not a lot gets published on it, and we have a fairly sizeable population in the UK of people with Pakistani, Indian and Bangladeshi heritage.  Hard to say exactly why that is, these things are complex, and there are likely many factors that could be pointed to.
> 
> The other factor re Palestinian rights is this is a big debate in the USA, with many prominent US authors and activists of jewish heritage raising the issues, and because of language and historical cultural links that gives energy to it in the UK.


 So we have here an idea that there is an over-emphasis on jews allied with _but i don't know why._

I know why.


----------



## Knotted (Jun 26, 2020)

platinumsage said:


> No, I'm not talking about self-justification, but the ease by which the left could oppose apartheid South Africa without crossing any fine lines into racism. Anyone claiming SA and Israel are directly comparable is wrong, because they're not.



It's easy to support the Palestinian cause without crossing any fine lines into racism as well. Just don't be racist! If somebody wants to argue for the Palestinian right of return, they don't have to talk about eg. Jewish control of the media. It's not connected, you have to work at hating Jews, it's not a natural state of affairs, it doesn't just flow out of geo-political considerations. The problem with anti-Semitism in Labour was (and surely still is) precisely a problem of a network of activists and that network getting a free pass.


----------



## bellaozzydog (Jun 26, 2020)

killer b said:


> dude, if you still need it explaining to you now, there's nothing I can say that'll make you see it.



good I can disregard your future posts as generalised agenda driven wiffle


----------



## killer b (Jun 26, 2020)

bellaozzydog said:


> good I can disregard your future posts as generalised agenda driven wiffle


what do you imagine my agenda is? I'm just really fucked off with this bullshit tbh, and have nothing but derision for people who, after being presented with the receipts week in week out for 5 years still pretend there's nothing there. 

There is zero value in me giving you a list of Labour antisemitism incidents because you've already seen them all, and you imagine there's no problem. Even now.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 26, 2020)

Struwwelpeter said:


> There are parallels:
> 
> "White lives matter" - of course they do, but in the context of BLM, it is at best crass and ignorant, at worst a catch phrase chanted by neo-nazis.
> "Criticism of Israel is not criticism of Jews" - of course it isn't, but in the context of anti-semitism in the Labour party and anti-semitic conspiraloons all over the place, such criticism is often crass and ignorant at best, at worst, a dog whistle to neo-nazis.
> Anyone in politics should be able to understand those nuances.  Unfortunately the conservatives are full of people who don't get 1 and the labour party is full of people who don't get 2.


I don't think the parallels there are so useful. Anyone making the 'white lives matter too' point has clearly utterly missed the point of BLM, which itself of course has a 'too' implied at the end. There is no need for anyone to champion 'white rights'.

Your second point appears to be saying that one should abandon the Palestinian cause because it is also championed by racists. If anything I think I would argue the opposite - the cause is clearly just and that produces an imperative not to allow it to be abandoned to racists. How could any good ever come from abandoning that cause when criticism of Israel is very far from 'crass and ignorant at best'. There is a need for someone to champion the rights of Palestinians. How much better is it when that cause is championed in a non-racist, non-ignorant way?


----------



## Serge Forward (Jun 26, 2020)

Rutita1 said:


> I've always thought it is more to do with anti-aparthied campaigns/movements being very much apart of 'leftist' traditions . In living memory those against SA apartheid for example. Boycotts, protests, lobbying, the lot. Why isn't that an okay stance to take on Israel?


In itself, if boycotts of nation states is your thing, then no problem.

The main issue seems to me to be this:

_"Look at what's happening to the Uighurs!"
"Yeah, but Israel"
"Black Lives Matter!
"Israel though, innit."
"Smash capitalism!"
"Definitely Isreal."
Etc, etc...._


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 26, 2020)

There is an issue the other way, though. I'd put the likes of the Jewish Chronicle in this category, whereby identifying dodgy or incorrect attacks on Israel trumps any other consideration. The JC has had very little to say about Johnson's racism, for instance. They don't seem to mind that.


----------



## bimble (Jun 26, 2020)

belboid said:


> If you like, Israel is more like Marcus Garvey's _Back to Africa _call, understandable but completely wrong.


Yeah no. Israel is a country that exists. You can argue against the idea of it as much as you like but the time for that conversation was the middle of last century. I’d have been on your side of that conversation but we missed it.


----------



## Serge Forward (Jun 26, 2020)

Yeah but the Jewish Cronicle is unhinged right wing drivel so you'd sort of expect that.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 26, 2020)

Serge Forward said:


> In itself, if boycotts of nation states is your thing, then no problem.
> 
> The main issue seems to me to be this:
> 
> ...


Out of curiosity have you ever boycotted a nation state?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 26, 2020)

bimble said:


> Yeah no. Israel is a country that exists. You can argue against the idea of it as much as you like but the time for that conversation was the middle of last century.


Ah but where does it begin and end?


----------



## agricola (Jun 26, 2020)

Serge Forward said:


> Yeah but the Jewish Cronicle is unhinged right wing drivel so you'd sort of expect that.



relaunched unhinged right wing drivel, please


----------



## belboid (Jun 26, 2020)

bimble said:


> Yeah no. Israel is a country that exists. You can argue against the idea of it as much as you like but the time for that conversation was the middle of last century. I’d have been on your side of that conversation but we missed it.


yup, and it has been shown how it was an awful idea.


----------



## bimble (Jun 26, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Ah but where does it begin and end?


Thing is, talking about how that country should not exist, when it does, what’s the point unless you have a plan to what send them all back to Lithuania Iraq  etc. We’ve all been round these houses plenty of times it’s stupid.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 26, 2020)

Serge Forward said:


> The main issue seems to me to be this:
> 
> _"Look at what's happening to the Uighurs!"
> "Yeah, but Israel"
> ...



Who is doing this?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 26, 2020)

bimble said:


> Thing is, talking about how that country should not exist, when it does, what’s the point unless you have a plan to what send them all back to Lithuania etc. We’ve all been round these houses plenty of times it’s stupid.


Did you read my post or just look gawpingly at it in confusion? I am not and have not denied the existence of the Zionist entity, tho I don't believe it has any more right to exist than eg the holy roman empire had a right to exist. I am asking where, for you, does the ze begin and end?


----------



## Serge Forward (Jun 26, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Out of curiosity have you ever boycotted a nation state?


Currently avoiding all produce of Sealand.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 26, 2020)

bimble said:


> Yeah no. Israel is a country that exists. You can argue against the idea of it as much as you like but the time for that conversation was the middle of last century. I’d have been on your side of that conversation but we missed it.


This is one of the reasons why imo it's so important not to abandon the Palestinian cause to those who are nakedly antisemitic. The Jewish population of Israel is there now. Any kind of solution needs to involve finding a way of allowing them and the Palestinians to share the land (and its resources). I don't see how that can be done except in one state - with power-sharing arrangements - otherwise the power inequalities just produce the bantustanation we have now. Tough, needing painful concessions from both sides, but the start of that would have to be both sides acknowledging at least some of the claims of the other side.


----------



## Serge Forward (Jun 26, 2020)

Rutita1 said:


> Who is doing this?


Quite a few left Labour Party people I encounter locally.

Edit - and isn't that part of the problem with Maxine Peake's comments. US cop kneels on George Floyd's neck.... Israel.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 26, 2020)

Serge Forward said:


> Currently avoiding all produce of Sealand.


Did you back in the day avoid South African produce?


----------



## Serge Forward (Jun 26, 2020)

I did.


----------



## belboid (Jun 26, 2020)

bimble said:


> Thing is, talking about how that country should not exist, when it does, what’s the point unless you have a plan to what send them all back to Lithuania Iraq  etc. We’ve all been round these houses plenty of times it’s stupid.


i support a single secular state for all.


----------



## belboid (Jun 26, 2020)

Serge Forward said:


> Quite a few left Labour Party people I encounter locally.


uhuh


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 26, 2020)

belboid said:


> i support a single secular state for all.


A sensible advance on the current situation and which could form a basis on which the work towards the abolition of that institution


----------



## Serge Forward (Jun 26, 2020)

belboid said:


> uhuh


Aye, it's like Pavlog's fucking dogs with some of them. Mention anything fucked up in the world and they start barking Israel this, Israel that, anti-zionist (borderline anti-semitic) shite. It's a bit upsetting really as one of them was someone I previously had a lot of time for and saw as a mate.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 26, 2020)

Serge Forward said:


> Quite a few left Labour Party people I encounter locally.
> 
> Edit - and isn't that part of the problem with Maxine Peake's comments. US cop kneels on George Floyd's neck.... Israel.


I see what you mean now. Whatever the issue, it's about finding the Israel angle.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 26, 2020)

Serge Forward said:


> Quite a few left Labour Party people I encounter locally.
> 
> Edit - and isn't that part of the problem with Maxine Peake's comments. US cop kneels on George Floyd's neck.... Israel.


Tbh it sounds like pub bores I used to know, one man no matter the subject you started on would within five minutes have got onto the second world war, and generally the quality of German weapons. Every time. Without fail.


----------



## belboid (Jun 26, 2020)

It is a comfort zone for some, especially of a certain age. Unlike, say, Syria, it is relatively straight forward and an argument they are well used to. Of course, there are a few of them who make Syria easy by parroting the Russia Today line and they do start to veer toward the conspiraloon end of things.


----------



## bimble (Jun 26, 2020)

belboid said:


> it is relatively straight forward


lol


----------



## Struwwelpeter (Jun 26, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I don't think the parallels there are so useful. Anyone making the 'white lives matter too' point has clearly utterly missed the point of BLM, which itself of course has a 'too' implied at the end. There is no need for anyone to champion 'white rights'.
> 
> Your second point appears to be saying that one should abandon the Palestinian cause because it is also championed by racists. If anything I think I would argue the opposite - the cause is clearly just and that produces an imperative not to allow it to be abandoned to racists. How could any good ever come from abandoning that cause when criticism of Israel is very far from 'crass and ignorant at best'. There is a need for someone to champion the rights of Palestinians. How much better is it when that cause is championed in a non-racist, non-ignorant way?



No I'm not saying that the Palestinian cause should be abandoned; If I need to spell it out, I'm saying that criticism of the Israeli government and its agencies in particular by senior Labour members, should only be done with  caution, because of the history of anti-semitism, not just in the modern Labour party but worldwide, across centuries.  That means it must be relevant (George Floyd's murder and BLM was not relevant), specific (the article was not specific, although other stuff on Israeli security training has been), and accurate (it wasn't).  If RLB had had a job that related to Palestine (shadow foreign secretary, International Development etc.) and there was something relevant to say, then criticism of the Israeli gov would have been fair enough, but let's face it, she wouldn't have been up to those jobs.


----------



## Wilf (Jun 26, 2020)

Struwwelpeter said:


> No I'm not saying that the Palestinian cause should be abandoned; *If I need to spell it out, I'm saying that criticism of the Israeli government and its agencies in particular by senior Labour members, should only be done with  caution, *because of the history of anti-semitism, not just in the modern Labour party but worldwide, across centuries.  That means it must be relevant (George Floyd's murder and BLM was not relevant), specific (the article was not specific, although other stuff on Israeli security training has been), and accurate (it wasn't).  If RLB had had a job that related to Palestine (shadow foreign secretary, International Development etc.) and there was something relevant to say, then criticism of the Israeli gov would have been fair enough, but let's face it, she wouldn't have been up to those jobs.


 That's a pretty fucked up situation though isn't it: 'don't go in hard on the Israeli state because of history and the existence of anti-semitic conspiratwats'.  It's also an example of the existence of antisemitic conspiracists, with their tendrils into the left, at once both attacks and defends the Israeli state and Israeli right. It attacks Israel (or Jewish people more accurately) but also serves to blunt criticisms of Israel. The left should be able to say direct and clear things about oppression and power. And, of course, it should be able to do that without being antisemitic.


----------



## Struwwelpeter (Jun 26, 2020)

I'm not saying don't ever go in hard.  I'm saying, do it with the knowledge that your words might (will?) get misinterpreted, twisted and used against you.  That means, being relevant, precise and accurate.  My point is that RLB's retweet was not any of those.  I don't know enough about her to know whether she is anti-semitic, but her carelessness is part of Labour's anti-semitism problem.


----------



## bimble (Jun 26, 2020)

belboid said:


> It is a comfort zone for some, especially of a certain age. Unlike, say, Syria, it is relatively straight forward and an argument they are well used to. Of course, there are a few of them who make Syria easy by parroting the Russia Today line and they do start to veer toward the conspiraloon end of things.


Sorry but thinking about this a bit more, when you say the israel-palestine situation "is relatively straightforward"  its pretty obvious what you mean is it's easy to enthusiastically and uncomplicatedly pick a side, a team. Nothing is straighforward even in your mind about what to actually _do_ to make anything better. Which is kind of interesting & possibly symptomatic of a wider problem.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Jun 26, 2020)

bimble said:


> Yeah no. Israel is a country that exists. You can argue against the idea of it as much as you like but the time for that conversation was the middle of last century. I’d have been on your side of that conversation but we missed it.


East Germany, The USSR, the Austro-Hungarian Empire, the Third Reich, Tannu Tuva, Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, Sudan, apartheid South Africa, Rhodesia, Hong Kong, the Ottoman Empire, the British Empire etc etc etc

Countries can be created, or destroyed, or divided, or merge. It happens throughout history. A statement of the bleeding obvious, really.


----------



## belboid (Jun 26, 2020)

bimble said:


> Sorry but thinking about this a bit more, when you say the israel-palestine situation "is relatively straightforward"  its pretty obvious what you mean is it's easy to enthusiastically and uncomplicatedly pick a side, a team. Nothing is straighforward even in your mind about what to actually _do_ to make anything better. Which is kind of interesting & possibly symptomatic of a wider problem.



No, I mean it is easy to explain it’s history and reasons for opposing.  

It's a settler colonial state imposed upon the region as a destablising influence and (particularly since 67) as America’s watchdog in the area.   It is to be opposed by boycotts divestment and sanctions.  Just as South Africa was opposed.  Plus solidarity to the plo.    There’s debate as to how much of a role the Israeli working class can play and how useful direct aid for Palestine is, but general agreement around bds and breaking links.


----------



## bimble (Jun 26, 2020)

That post just looks very sad to me belboid tbh, like here's the 5 bullet points anyone ever need to consider to be on the correct side of this argument, totally pointless wank. Anyway, not good for me these threads i'm better off sticking to the one about watching birds.


----------



## belboid (Jun 26, 2020)

bimble said:


> That post just looks very sad to me belboid tbh, like here's the 5 bullet points anyone ever need to consider to be on the correct side of this argument, totally pointless wank. Anyway, not good for me these threads i'm off back to the one about watching birds.


Good for you


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 26, 2020)

Hands up who would be happy to be a Muslim Palestinian living under the brutal, murderous regime of the Israeli Apartheid State? Hands up who would enjoy being the average working class Jewish Israeli under this regime?

Not one person on this thread would choose this fate for themselves, but when it comes to the lives of others, it's complicated and about picking 'teams' ?

It's about right and wrong. The only complexities I can see are about how to deal with it, how to support and oppose. Even more so because neither the UK government, nor the US administration has any motivation to call it out for what it is. Quite the opposite in fact, they're colluding in it.


----------



## LDC (Jun 26, 2020)

belboid said:


> No, I mean it is easy to explain it’s history and reasons for opposing.
> 
> It's a settler colonial state imposed upon the region as a destablising influence and (particularly since 67) as America’s watchdog in the area.   It is to be opposed by boycotts divestment and sanctions.  Just as South Africa was opposed.  Plus solidarity to the plo.    There’s debate as to how much of a role the Israeli working class can play and how useful direct aid for Palestine is, but general agreement around bds and breaking links.



Do find it mildly amusing how you throw 'Plus solidarity to the PLO' in like it's a uncontroversial and simple point that nobody could disagree with!


----------



## CNT36 (Jun 26, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> East Germany, The USSR, the Austro-Hungarian Empire, the Third Reich, Tannu Tuva, Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, Sudan, apartheid South Africa, Rhodesia, Hong Kong, the Ottoman Empire, the British Empire etc etc etc
> 
> Countries can be created, or destroyed, or divided, or merge. It happens throughout history. A statement of the bleeding obvious, really.


I tried to write a very similar post a few months back but made a hash of it and was rightly called out. Cheers.


----------



## Serge Forward (Jun 26, 2020)

Rutita1 said:


> Hands up who would be happy to be a Muslim Palestinian living under the brutal, murderous regime of the Israeli State? Hands up who would enjoy being the average working class Jewish Israeli under this regime?
> 
> Not one person on this thread would choose this fate for themselves, but when it comes to the lives of others, it's complicated and about picking 'teams' .
> 
> It's about right and wrong. The only complexities I can see are about how to deal with it, how to support and oppose. Even more so because neither the UK government, nor the US administration has any motivation to call it out for what it is. Quite the opposite in fact, they're colluding in it.


I agree. I don't think there's many on here that would choose to be a Palestinian living under the Israeli state... or the Palestinian Authority, for that matter. I doubt there's many on here that would support the activities of the Israel regime and the IDF either. And as we're precisely  talking about Israel now, that's all fair enough. 

But whenever someone is discussing any of the other numerous places on the globe we wouldn't want to be a citizen of, places where the UK, US and other governments also collude with the oppressors... and then some proponent of the anti imperialism of fools insists on relating it all to Israel, then it makes you think...


----------



## chilango (Jun 26, 2020)




----------



## Supine (Jun 26, 2020)

And while the left go down a rabbit hole of racism and the press move onto beach crowding a real story is happening.

The conservatives vote down a Labour bill from Starmer to get all NHS and Care staff weekly testing for Covid. Didn’t get much press as far as I can tell.


----------



## killer b (Jun 26, 2020)

Supine said:


> And while the left go down a rabbit hole of racism and the press move onto beach crowding a real story is happening.
> 
> The conservatives vote down a Labour bill from Starmer to get all NHS and Care staff weekly testing for Covid. Didn’t get much press as far as I can tell.


That's not a real story is it? The tories have a majority of 80, no Labour bill is going to pass - it'd be a story if it did. 

You're stuck in 2015 - 2019, when there was sometimes a chance of the government losing a vote. The only reason Labour proposed this bill in the first place is so they can make memes for the next two years with pictures of sad nurses saying 'the tories voted to kill your heroic nurses' anyway.


----------



## Wilf (Jun 26, 2020)

Supine said:


> And while the left go down a rabbit hole of racism and the press move onto beach crowding a real story is happening.
> 
> The conservatives vote down a Labour bill from Starmer to get all NHS and Care staff weekly testing for Covid. Didn’t get much press as far as I can tell.


You seem to forget that starmer himself gave this story a hefty shove towards the rabbit hole by sacking RLB. Curiouser and Curiouser...


----------



## Supine (Jun 26, 2020)

killer b said:


> The only reason Labour proposed this bill in the first place is so they can make memes for the next two years with pictures of sad nurses saying 'the tories voted to kill your heroic nurses' anyway.



They proposed it because it was a good idea. It didn’t get through but it’s one of many messages Labour need to give about how they would lead. Just what’s needed in the long run.


----------



## Wilf (Jun 26, 2020)

Supine said:


> They proposed it because it was a good idea. It didn’t get through but it’s one of many messages Labour need to give about how they would lead. Just what’s needed in the long run.


Maybe what they need to do, given that Labour won't win a single meaningful vote in Parliament* is to begin thinking about ways to resist that are outside parliament. Starmer is incapable of that of course, just as Corbyn was in the end.


----------



## killer b (Jun 26, 2020)

Supine said:


> They proposed it because it was a good idea. It didn’t get through but it’s one of many messages Labour need to give about how they would lead. Just what’s needed in the long run.


I agree, they proposed it to send a message. Not in any hope of winning, just to say 'this is what we'd like to do.'  fine - but it isn't a story that they lost, and no-one is obliged to cover some Labour no-hope bill losing just because it's nice about nurses. They're going to lose every vote for the next 5 years.


----------



## Supine (Jun 27, 2020)

Wilf said:


> Maybe what they need to do, given that Labour won't win a single meaningful vote in Parliament* is to begin thinking about ways to resist that are outside parliament. Starmer is incapable of that of course, just as Corbyn was in the end.



That’s not the job of the leader of the opposition. You can organise it though if you want.


----------



## Wilf (Jun 27, 2020)

Supine said:


> *That’s not the job of the leader of the opposition*. You can organise it though if you want.


The irony is, you are probably closer to Corbyn on that point than you ever thought possible.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 27, 2020)

Supine said:


> That’s not the job of the leader of the opposition. You can organise it though if you want.


Really? It's simple as that - anyone can organise it just by wanting to? 

As to what the job of the leader of the opposition is, it's surely way beyond parliament. Labour cannot actually do anything in parliament aside from making speeches most people will ignore. Is it not also their job to build movements and alliances for change? 

They might even think about causing some trouble even. Showing some passion and commitment. Just a thought.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 27, 2020)

As it is Starmer seems depressingly more and more like a dull version of Blair.

Vote for us. We'll be better managers than them.


----------



## ska invita (Jun 27, 2020)

killer b said:


> I agree, they proposed it to send a message. Not in any hope of winning, just to say 'this is what we'd like to do.'  fine - but it isn't a story that they lost, and no-one is obliged to cover some Labour no-hope bill losing just because it's nice about nurses. They're going to lose every vote for the next 5 years.


tbf they did get that amendment passed about forrin NHS workers not having to pay extra for access to the NHS
and also summer school dinner vouchers


----------



## Wilf (Jun 27, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> As it is Starmer seems depressingly more and more like a dull version of Blair.
> 
> Vote for us. We'll be better managers than them.


Not easy for me to give an honest assessment of Starmer's political persona, but he does have the feel of being a dogged, clear headed senior law officer (not surprisingly) or just about cabinet material. Somebody who isn't going to fuck things up, but won't win converts.  But it's his record shaping Labour's brexit policy that really shows he's got little chance of winning back Labour's lost seats.


----------



## Wilf (Jun 27, 2020)

ska invita said:


> tbf they did get that amendment passed about forrin NHS workers not having to pay extra for access to the NHS
> and also summer school dinner vouchers


Wasn't that a certain left sided attacking player?


----------



## killer b (Jun 27, 2020)

ska invita said:


> tbf they did get that amendment passed about forrin NHS workers not having to pay extra for access to the NHS
> and also summer school dinner vouchers


When were they put to the vote?


----------



## belboid (Jun 27, 2020)

killer b said:


> When were they put to the vote?


They lost that vote three days ago.


----------



## ska invita (Jun 27, 2020)

killer b said:


> When were they put to the vote?


aren't amendments voted on? i wasnt paying attention tbh
anyhow i thought they managed to get a couple of u-turns one way or another



belboid said:


> They lost that vote three days ago.



oh whats that? did something not pass in the end?


----------



## Supine (Jun 27, 2020)

killer b said:


> When were they put to the vote?



u turns from labour and the press making Boris look like a cnut.


----------



## Wilf (Jun 27, 2020)

Apropos of absolutely nothing at all, I was just looking at something on Starmer for another thread and just realised his wife is Jewish. Don't worry, I'm not looking for rabbit holes, but AS will be pretty important to him - his kids are being raised in the Jewish faith. If nothing else it's probably in the mix over why he was so quick off the mark on RLB (all happened in a day I think).


----------



## killer b (Jun 27, 2020)

The school dinners thing was because of Marcus Rashford's campaign, and was a change in policy rather than a parliamentary vote. Labour were mercilessly mocked when they tried to take credit for it.


----------



## belboid (Jun 27, 2020)

ska invita said:


> oh whats that? did something not pass in the end?


The one on reports of bullying and harassment in parliament 









						Rees-Mogg loses vote to let MPs debate bullying claims
					

MPs and women’s groups said proposal would have weakened efforts to stop harassment




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## killer b (Jun 27, 2020)

belboid said:


> The one on reports of bullying and harassment in parliament
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That was a free vote.


----------



## belboid (Jun 27, 2020)

killer b said:


> The school dinners thing was because of Marcus Rashford's campaign, and was a change in policy rather than a parliamentary vote. Labour were mercilessly mocked when they tried to take credit for it.


Well, they had started the campaign on it in the first place.  Proposed by my MP who has campaigned on it since being elected. Rashford’s campaign didn’t come out of nowhere.


----------



## Wilf (Jun 27, 2020)

killer b said:


> The school dinners thing was because of Marcus Rashford's campaign, and was a change in policy rather than a parliamentary vote. Labour were mercilessly mocked when they tried to take credit for it.


John Terry in his kit ready to pick up the trophy.


----------



## ska invita (Jun 27, 2020)

Wilf said:


> If nothing else it's probably in the mix over why he was so quick off the mark on RLB (all happened in a day I think).


in case anyone has the energy to talk about this...from reports it sounds like he was happy to let the initial retweet slide, in that they wrote a new tweet together "clarifying" wthat had happened etc. seemed like that was all done and dusted...and then reports suggest that second tweet brought new pressure to fire her (from who i dont know), which he capitulated to
...?
Thats my impression of the bits of news about this - seems he wouldve been happy to let it slide, but then all of a sudden extra pressure come on top, and he caved in to that
??

if so it paints a slightly different picture of Starmer's instincts on this

ultimately, whatever, same difference really, it is what it is


----------



## Wilf (Jun 27, 2020)

ska invita said:


> in case anyone has the energy to talk about this...from reports it sounds like he was happy to let the initial retweet slide, in that they wrote a new tweet together "clarifying" wthat had happened etc. seemed like that was all done and dusted...and then reports suggest that second tweet brought new pressure to fire her (from who i dont know), which he capitulated to
> ...?
> Thats my impression of the bits of news about this - seems he wouldve been happy to let it slide, but then all of a sudden extra pressure come on top, and he caved in to that
> ??
> ...


Thanks for the detail. To be honest, I think I'd have preferred the idea of an angry Starmer thinking about his kids and booting her out or something than what seems to have happened, as you suggest.  Anyway, I've probably derailed the thread from the bigger qs with this sideshow on his family, so I'll get the fuck to bed.


----------



## Supine (Jun 27, 2020)

ska invita said:


> in case anyone has the energy to talk about this...from reports it sounds like he was happy to let the initial retweet slide, in that they wrote a new tweet together "clarifying" wthat had happened etc. seemed like that was all done and dusted...and then reports suggest that second tweet brought new pressure to fire her (from who i dont know), which he capitulated to
> ...?
> Thats my impression of the bits of news about this - seems he wouldve been happy to let it slide, but then all of a sudden extra pressure come on top, and he caved in to that
> ??
> ...



many facts or just reports suggested from unknown sources?


----------



## Humberto (Jun 27, 2020)

I don't believe Peake or Long-Bailey hate Jews. But sooner or later we are going to find out that this planet needs a future and that only the left can offer the way forward. Why? Conservatism is about continuing and entrenching the status quo. i.e. Keep the rich rich and safe. Through force. The left of Labour needs to foresake the anti-imperialism stuff as its totem. Getting bogged down in the same old stuff looks tired and clumsy. It needs to have an element of positivity and agility.


----------



## scifisam (Jun 27, 2020)

I know I'm going back a few pages now, but...




belboid said:


> well, it depends upon their experience of, say, racism, sexism and homophobia, appalling housing - that may have been socially owned, but was still often shit - far worse health and safety (legally at least), far fewer opportunities to go onto higher education, not to mention travel or ability to access to a wider culturally world, via the net and the other increases in communication between peoples.
> So, yes, many young people may recognise there were some ways n which the sixties/seventies were better, but they'd also be fully aware - and more directly aware - that things were also worse in many ways too.



My daughter's experiences of racism and (especially) homophobia are vastly different to mine. It was a much bigger deal to come out in the 90s, for example. I've had to try to explain that to my daughter.

But we had student grants, student loans were small, and if you had help from your parents or a pretty good job you could probably get a home with a mortgage. If you couldn't afford that, you could at least afford to rent a shared house or even a flat without breaking the bank.

Now kids don't just need a few grand from their parents towards the mortgage, they need £50k plus. You need £1.5k just to put down a deposit, pay fees and pay the first six weeks' rent on a rented _room_ in the outskirts of London, and that's probably a conservative estimate. The chances of them getting social housing is even lower than it was for me in the very late 90s, and it was hard enough then. They have to go to uni to get jobs that people used to get with just GCSEs, and they have to go into debt to do that. 

You talked about people comparing things to the 60/70s, but I'm comparing things to the 90s, when my daughter was born (I was 22 when she was born; she's about to turn 22). The 60s is the time when the grandparents of most of today's kids came of age, so you've got your timelines wrong.

The 90s wasn't a golden age but it is harder for young adults now. Yeah, they have more TVs but they have less potential to live in a secure home.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jun 27, 2020)

Wilf said:


> You seem to forget that starmer himself gave this story a hefty shove towards the rabbit hole by sacking RLB. Curiouser and Curiouser...



Almost exactly what a tory fifth columnist would do


----------



## chilango (Jun 27, 2020)

Supine said:


> That’s not the job of the leader of the opposition. You can organise it though if you want.



Yep.

The leader of the opposition (and indeed the parliamentary Labour party) are pretty much irrelevant and redundant for the next 5 years.


----------



## platinumsage (Jun 27, 2020)

Wilf said:


> You seem to forget that starmer himself gave this story a hefty shove towards the rabbit hole by sacking RLB. Curiouser and Curiouser...



Yes politicians should only do one thing per week so that nothing ever overshadows anything else.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 27, 2020)

Replaced RLB with the chair of Owen Smith's 2016 campaign to challenge Corbyn's leadership; "unity".


----------



## ska invita (Jun 27, 2020)

the teaching trade union angle does seem to be more than just coincidence - some interesting anonymous quotes from "frontbencher" and "party source" in there

i guess nothing new


----------



## treelover (Jun 27, 2020)

Kate Green was chair of Child Poverty Action Group during the late Blair/Brown era, when many campaigner felt it had been co-opted, very little opposition to the welfare reforms, etc.

Others think she did an OK job later as shadow Disabilities Minister.


----------



## Shechemite (Jun 27, 2020)

Wilf said:


> But its the morass, the almost neurological network of Cts and antisemitism that is the problem. It sits there as a failed issue for the left, 'a thing', a ball of shite that you either plot your way round with good instincts and good thinking or you find yourself caught up in.  Trouble is, if anyone is going to 'solve this' nowadays it will be the likes of Starmer, the Mail and the worst of the worse. In a sense they already have. The left could have done so much more to call out AS and develop it's own solution back in the time of the STWC but didn't (and way before that). Remember all the threads on here.



There is something of tragedy in this mess


----------



## Brainaddict (Jun 27, 2020)

I find it pretty depressing watching the Labour left all scrabbling to circle the wagons, impress on everyone that even Peake's apology was unwarranted, and RLB's sacking is the worst thing in the world. This was not the ground on which to confront the Labour right, it just makes them look tribalistic - and to me it looks like they don't actually care about confronting the Labour right on the key economic issues. They seem to care more about being absolutely and totally right about their right to be careless about how they talk about Israel. What a clusterfuck.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 27, 2020)

Brainaddict said:


> I find it pretty depressing watching the Labour left all scrabbling to circle the wagons, impress on everyone that even Peake's apology was unwarranted, and RLB's sacking is the worst thing in the world. This was not the ground on which to confront the Labour right, it just makes them look tribalistic - and to me it looks like they don't actually care about confronting the Labour right on the key economic issues. They seem to care more about being absolutely and totally right about their right to be careless about how they talk about Israel. What a clusterfuck.


Yeh well since your Saudi is the worst country in the world etc I'm less than confident in your analyses. As here - mp right about vile techniques being taught by the ze to Americans, wrong (perhaps) on the specific. What she said, what rlb said, frankly fair comment. Your tosh about confronting the labour right is really poor. The crux of the issue is you can be fired under starmer for as while not actually saying anything anti-semitic. This sets a poor precedent for debate in the LP and will undoubtedly be used as a precedent by ks in the future. I'm not myself a labour supporter and I find this notion the labour left will ever successfully confront the labour right on any issue under starmer frankly laughable. It's as tho the last election had never happened.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 27, 2020)

treelover said:


> Kate Green was chair of Child Poverty Action Group during the late Blair/Brown era, when many campaigner felt it had been co-opted, very little opposition to the welfare reforms, etc.
> 
> Others think she did an OK job later as shadow Disabilities Minister.


But what do you think?


----------



## YouSir (Jun 27, 2020)

Kate Green may, or may not, be competent but judging by the reaction from those excited by the news it's a proper return to the 'Sensible Adult (TM)' politics of middle class managers making forensic choices for the rest of us. Bit like that phase of Corona where deers started walking the streets and whatnot - nature's coming back.


----------



## Humberto (Jun 28, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> i am very surprised by your identification of saudi arabia when if i was to point a finger at a country that has had the most damaging effect on the world etc i think i'd point towards westminster. being as britain has been complicit in the things which have _really_ fucked the world in recent years, things like selling weapons to saudi arabia (let's after all blame the seller), things like supporting the united states in its lunatic military adventures and lining up alongside very few countries in the invasion of iraq which created waves the final effects of which we have not yet seen, things like supporting countries like the ze in international institutions like the un. and this is before the uk cheerleading for and participating in the toppling of gadaffi and creation of a situation which looks today like it's going to be a bloody big war potentially involving countries from across the middle east.
> 
> it's never a great surprise to me that people don't pay that much attention, never see this country, as a very fucking big problem for the world. every government we've had in my lifetime has always wanted to punch above its weight. has always wanted to retain the ability to fight over the other side of the world. i think this country has been involved in more wars since 1945 than any other. and its always been very willing to sell not only weaponry but equipment whose only purpose is torture to repressive regimes.
> 
> things are always sexier when you see them from afar. but perhaps you ought to look at matters rather closer to home.



For all their outward respectability, they are actually quite shameless. If there's a few quid to be made, the greedy bastards will look for the chance. I don't want to pretend like I've got the final word on the matter, but I think you're right to single them out.


----------



## BristolEcho (Jun 28, 2020)

YouSir said:


> Kate Green may, or may not, be competent but judging by the reaction from those excited by the news it's a proper return to the 'Sensible Adult (TM)' politics of middle class managers making forensic choices for the rest of us. Bit like that phase of Corona where deers started walking the streets and whatnot - nature's coming back.



Yep. Made a very big point to celebrate armed forces day today as well. It's clear what the approach is going to be. "Smart and sensible politics." He makes my skin crawl to be honest.


----------



## 19force8 (Jun 28, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Really? It's simple as that - anyone can organise it just by wanting to?
> 
> As to what the job of the leader of the opposition is, it's surely way beyond parliament. Labour cannot actually do anything in parliament aside from making speeches most people will ignore. Is it not also their job to build movements and alliances for change?
> 
> They might even think about causing some trouble even. Showing some passion and commitment. Just a thought.


Sadly, Labour doesn't see it's role as leading anything outside Parliament.

This is especially so in industrial relations. The idea that a Labour leader could challenge union general secretaries by pushing for effective strikes is so far beyond the pale that even Corbyn never hinted at it. At least he didn't pull the usual trick of condemning strikes (which is faint praise at best)

As for causing trouble, that's not the role of a *loyal* opposition.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Jun 28, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh well since your Saudi is the worst country in the world etc I'm less than confident in your analyses. As here - mp right about vile techniques being taught by the ze to Americans, wrong (perhaps) on the specific. What she said, what rlb said, frankly fair comment. Your tosh about confronting the labour right is really poor. The crux of the issue is you can be fired under starmer for as while not actually saying anything anti-semitic. This sets a poor precedent for debate in the LP and will undoubtedly be used as a precedent by ks in the future. I'm not myself a labour supporter and I find this notion the labour left will ever successfully confront the labour right on any issue under starmer frankly laughable. It's as tho the last election had never happened.


But in the context of the Labour left having problems with AS, why pick that hill to die on?. Did she think Starmer wouldn’t have the guts to sack her?. That she would kick off a revolt?.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 28, 2020)

sleaterkinney said:


> But in the context of the Labour left having problems with AS, why pick that hill to die on?. Did she think Starmer wouldn’t have the guts to sack her?. That she would kick off a revolt?.


I'm not sure you've understood my post

Do you think people like rlb should withdraw a statement which isn't anti-semitic because their party leader demands it on the basis of anti-semitism?


----------



## platinumsage (Jun 28, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> I'm not sure you've understood my post
> 
> Do you think people like rlb should withdraw a statement which isn't anti-semitic because their party leader demands it on the basis of anti-semitism?



People like RLB apologise for comments they don't believe are racist all the time: e.g. Councillor apologises for using racial slur during meeting


----------



## planetgeli (Jun 28, 2020)

sleaterkinney said:


> But in the context of the Labour left having problems with AS, why pick that hill to die on?. Did she think Starmer wouldn’t have the guts to sack her?. That she would kick off a revolt?.



I don’t think she did pick that hill to die on. I think she thoughtlessly (literally) hastily retweeted a piece she saw largely about the faults of capitalism that contained this small piece wrongly directly linking Floyd’s death to Israel. 

The AS angle gave Starmer the perfect chance to get rid of a ‘lefty’. I’m sure he was equally annoyed by the politics of the rest of the piece she thought was the work of an ‘absolute diamond’. And I think there’s probably deep irony in there somewhere in that I don’t really believe RLB does want to overthrow capitalism while Starmer hates her for even pretending she does. I think working this into AS as the main drift was just a gift for him. She’s not being sacked for being AS, she’s being sacked for liking ideological views on economics way to the left of Starmer.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 28, 2020)

platinumsage said:


> People like RLB apologise for comments they don't believe are racist all the time: e.g. Councillor apologises for using racial slur during meeting


Right. so maybe now you can explain how that's in any way equivalent to what rlb did. And continue by explaining why you think what rlb did is racist. Don't turn all brave sir robin again like you did on the Dominic Cummings thread


----------



## sleaterkinney (Jun 28, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> I'm not sure you've understood my post
> 
> Do you think people like rlb should withdraw a statement which isn't anti-semitic because their party leader demands it on the basis of anti-semitism?


She should have withdrawn her support for Peake, who has herself disowned her comment.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 28, 2020)

sleaterkinney said:


> She should have withdrawn her support for Peake, who has herself disowned her comment.


maybe that makes sense to you but to me it isn't really an answer to the question I posed, you seem to have answered a completely different question.


----------



## platinumsage (Jun 28, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Right. so maybe now you can explain how that's in any way equivalent to what rlb did. And continue by explaining why you think what rlb did is racist. Don't turn all brave sir robin again like you did on the Dominic Cummings thread



Your question was whether people like rlb should withdraw a statement which isn't anti-semitic because their party leader demands it on the basis of anti-semitism. My point is that if the party says you should apologise/withdraw something because it's racist, you probably should. Protestations of "I'm not racist actually, it wasn't meant that way, I didn't read all of the article, 95% wasn't racist" etc will only make things worse.

As to whether it was actually anti-semitic or not, I think we've gone around in circles enough on that point already.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 28, 2020)

platinumsage said:


> Your question was whether people like rlb should withdraw a statement which isn't anti-semitic because their party leader demands it on the basis of anti-semitism. My point is that if the party says you should apologise/withdraw something because it's racist, you probably should. Protestations of "I'm not racist actually, it wasn't meant that way, I didn't read all of the article, 95% wasn't racist" etc will only make things worse.


I'll take that as a no then.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Jun 28, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> maybe that makes sense to you but to me it isn't really an answer to the question I posed, you seem to have answered a completely different question.


I’m saying what she refused to do which is withdraw support for Peake, who did take back her own comment.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 28, 2020)

sleaterkinney said:


> I’m saying what she refused to do which is withdraw support for Peake, who did take back her own comment.


I know what you're saying. I don't know why you're saying it in response to the question asked.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Jun 28, 2020)

sleaterkinney said:


> She should have withdrawn her support for Peake, who has herself disowned her comment.


The Labour Party used to claim to be a broad church. Now it seems more like an episode of Broadchurch. 

(Actually, I’m not quite sure that really works, but having thought of it I felt this dreadful compulsion to post it)


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jun 28, 2020)

sleaterkinney said:


> She should have withdrawn her support for Peake, who has herself disowned her comment.


All her support?


----------



## sleaterkinney (Jun 28, 2020)

S☼I said:


> All her support?


Yeah, do you want her to say “I support her apart from the bit of AS”.


----------



## campanula (Jun 28, 2020)

sleaterkinney said:


> Yeah, do you want her to say “I support her apart from the bit of AS”.


Why not. I am totally fucking sick of this idea of some sort of ideological purity where the tiniest deviation from a(vague and mutable) party line is seen as proof of being a total wrong'un. This sort of absolutist crap has disabled any attempt at mutual support and solidarity across an entire spectrum of leftish theory and practice. Calling out, accusations arising from a single thoughtless jab on social media is truly working for a rightwing which doesn't give the tiniest fuck about minority support, racism, and so on.    It's so effective because there is and never has been any clarity or even fixed positions in any social, economic, political, cultural or historical grouping because we are dynamic, evolving, alive. The whole idea of a contested terrain should be an accommodation with difference and not a fucking popquiz where a single statement is proof of someone's fitness, (or lack of) in perpetuity, for any position within a wider group. Sick to death of 'gotchas' because I will happily participate in a class struggle but not when scrutinised by purity gatekeepers. for the tiniest wrong move.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Jun 28, 2020)

campanula said:


> I am totally fucking sick of this idea of some sort of ideological purity


Yep. Spot on.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jun 28, 2020)

sleaterkinney said:


> Yeah, do you want her to say “I support her apart from the bit of AS”.


Sure. If she's been sacked for one tiny bit of what Peake said then she could have said how much she endorsed the other 95% of the piece.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jun 28, 2020)

sleaterkinney said:


> Yeah, do you want her to say “I support her apart from the bit of AS”.


How would RLB redeem herself in your eyes?


----------



## campanula (Jun 28, 2020)

And basing anything on a social media post just emphasises the  performative (and utterly hollow) way of doing politics - just shit, really.


----------



## platinumsage (Jun 28, 2020)

campanula said:


> And basing anything on a social media post just emphasises the  performative (and utterly hollow) way of doing politics - just shit, really.



That's one way of looking at, but these are public statements people are making. Just because they are on social media doesn't mean they should get a free pass to say stuff that would harm their career if said in an actual speech or TV interview.


----------



## campanula (Jun 28, 2020)

platinumsage said:


> That's one way of looking at, but these are public statements people are making. Just because they are on social media doesn't mean they should get a free pass to say stuff that would harm their career if said in an actual speech or TV interview.


I don't think a single statement should be seen as indicative of anything, really...unless placed in a much broader context of actions, voting results in  parliamentary bills,  actual choices made and positions taken over a period of time. I don't, for a second think RLB was sacked because of a single rt but it is fundamentally dishonest of Starmer to pretend that this is so.
Or, to put it another way, I am supportive of people in my community who are workers in a deeply unfair capitalist system, disabled, victims of prejudice, working class people who are being fucked over...despite knowing that many of them hold some dubious political positions, can be equally bigoted and unpleasant...because I believe in solidarity and  equality, which can only be achieved if we can also accommodate difference within a wider class struggle.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Jun 28, 2020)

S☼I said:


> How would RLB redeem herself in your eyes?


Look, I’ve copied tweets in haste myself - a few times, it can happen - you just skim read a piece, it’s been retweeted by someone you know, whatever. But she had an opportunity to disown Peake and she didn’t and given the problems the Labour left had with AS she deserved to go because of that.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jun 28, 2020)

Seems about right.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jun 28, 2020)

19force8 said:


> Sadly, Labour doesn't see it's role as leading anything outside Parliament.
> 
> This is especially so in industrial relations. The idea that a Labour leader could challenge union general secretaries by pushing for effective strikes is so far beyond the pale that even Corbyn never hinted at it. At least he didn't pull the usual trick of condemning strikes (which is faint praise at best)



This is a bizarre take. Can you give one real life example where you believe that a Labour leader might have done this and when those being told to lose money and possibly their jobs would have done as ordered?

I don’t know if you’ve ever been on strike but in my experience you are badly wide of the mark. By that I mean that the only effective strikes I’ve ever been involved in are the ones that come from the shopfloor. Normally,
despite the lazy twats in union jobs being involved, not because of them.

The idea that workers would strike because the leader of the Labour Party demanded their union called them out  - that workers are simply instruments or stage armies that can be called on and off the battlefield at the behest of a politician - is fanciful to put it politely.


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## kebabking (Jun 28, 2020)

sleaterkinney said:


> Look, I’ve copied tweets in haste myself - a few times, it can happen - you just skim read a piece, it’s been retweeted by someone you know, whatever. But she had an opportunity to disown Peake and she didn’t and given the problems the Labour left had with AS she deserved to go because of that.



I'm personally of the view that if you say 'sorry, I didn't read it properly - phone rang, kids were playing up etc.. and I liked it/retweeted it without noticing the offending bit. My apologies' people will give you the benefit of the doubt.

Given that it was one line or whatever in a much longer piece, I'd be prepared to accept that - the problem is, this isn't the first time RLB has failed on the AS test, as she herself has said.

It's not that she's some hate filled Jew basher, she's not - the problem (as it appears from the last few years), is that like Corbyn, is that she's either blind to it when it's surrounded by other stuff she agrees with, or prepared to overlook it when the person involved is 'sound'.

It could well be that the phone rang, or the kids were playing up, and she just missed it - she's human, she has the same pressures and distractions as the rest of us - the problem for that charitable interpretation, that benefit of the doubt, is that - as she herself has said - it's not the first time she's been distracted, or not noticed, or not anything, when these AS tropes flash past.


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## 19force8 (Jun 28, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> This is a bizarre take. Can you give one real life example where you believe that a Labour leader might have done this and when those being told to lose money and possibly their jobs would have done as ordered?
> 
> I don’t know if you’ve ever been on strike but in my experience you are badly wide of the mark. By that I mean that the only effective strikes I’ve ever been involved in are the ones that come from the shopfloor. Normally,
> despite the lazy twats in union jobs being involved, not because of them.
> ...


You're misinterpreting. I didn't say a Labour leader should *tell* people to go on strike. I talked about pushing for effective action and challenging general secretaries. Leadership is about more than giving orders.

I've been on strike several times. I'm also old enough to remember when successful action was called by union leaderships with and without ballots. So maybe ease up on the patronising bullshit and learn some union history.

The only examples I can recall this late on a Sunday evening of Labour leading any struggles outside parliament were by councils and even then only Poplar succeeded and that was nearly 90 years ago.

The idea of any extra-paliamentary action is so alien to the PLP that even Corbyn, despite his many qualities, never so much as hinted that councils might take a stand over cuts.


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## Smokeandsteam (Jun 28, 2020)

19force8 said:


> You're misinterpreting. I didn't say a Labour leader should *tell* people to go on strike. I talked about pushing for effective action and challenging general secretaries. Leadership is about more than giving orders.
> 
> I've been on strike several times. I'm also old enough to remember when successful action was called by union leaderships with and without ballots. So maybe ease up on the patronising bullshit and learn some union history.
> 
> ...



I’m always happy to learn some union history. So tell me, would any of the strikes you’ve been involved in have been more successful had the leader of the LP pushed the leader of your union to adopt a different or more effective approach??

I agree with you about Labour councils. But that’s a different question. They are, nominally, under the same democratic policies and approach as the PLP and the Leader.


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## The39thStep (Jun 29, 2020)

19force8 said:


> You're misinterpreting. I didn't say a Labour leader should *tell* people to go on strike. I talked about pushing for effective action and challenging general secretaries. Leadership is about more than giving orders.
> 
> I've been on strike several times. I'm also old enough to remember when successful action was called by union leaderships with and without ballots. So maybe ease up on the patronising bullshit and learn some union history.
> 
> ...


I take your point about the PLP generally  but aside from Poplar theres a few more examples of Councils :Lambeth under Knight, Clay Cross with the Skinner Brothers, Liverpool under Militant, Livingstone GLC over fares, possibly even Blunkett's Sheffield?  Now none of these would have occurred without a wider context of working class organisation at least critical of the PLP and often outside of the Labour Party and very often against the Labour Party and the PLP itself.


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## The39thStep (Jun 29, 2020)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Seems about right.




The quote is actually from a fella called Andrew Murray who spent 40 years in the Communist Party in an article here Vol 50: Socialist Register 2014: Registering Class 							| Socialist Register
He says many things and we can all pick and chooses but on this .below, he is bang on the money


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## Humberto (Jun 29, 2020)

I wonder what proportion of people in this country think they are being treated justly? Economically, we are headed for the worst of times. It's times like these we need to think ahead. If we saw how they moved it in their favour after 2008, what will happen next? They will grant each other impunity and absolution and stuff their pockets.


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## Kevbad the Bad (Jun 29, 2020)

I’m beginning to dislike the word ‘trope’. I must admit I had never even come across it until fairly recently, but now it’s everywhere, and every time I read it it’s accompanied by the word ‘anti-semitic’. Its usage is accusatory, denunciatory and indiscriminate. The advantage the user of the term acquires is that they no longer need proof, evidence or logical connection between other people’s statements and antisemitism. All they need is the accusation. You don’t even need to be aware that others in the past have used these tropes. The fact that you use them, whatever they may be, is enough to convict you of at least courting with anti-semitism, of not being as aware as you should be of whatever it is you haven’t actually said. I dislike the word even more now.


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## 19force8 (Jun 29, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> I take your point about the PLP generally  but aside from Poplar theres a few more examples of Councils :Lambeth under Knight, Clay Cross with the Skinner Brothers, Liverpool under Militant, Livingstone GLC over fares, possibly even Blunkett's Sheffield?  Now none of these would have occurred without a wider context of working class organisation at least critical of the PLP and often outside of the Labour Party and very often against the Labour Party and the PLP itself.


Indeed, I'd actually forgotten about the GLC. Although it could be said Poplar was the only one to succeed in that it stood the test of time.


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## Pickman's model (Jun 29, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> I’m beginning to dislike the word ‘trope’. I must admit I had never even come across it until fairly recently, but now it’s everywhere, and every time I read it it’s accompanied by the word ‘anti-semitic’. Its usage is accusatory, denunciatory and indiscriminate. The advantage the user of the term acquires is that they no longer need proof, evidence or logical connection between other people’s statements and antisemitism. All they need is the accusation. You don’t even need to be aware that others in the past have used these tropes. The fact that you use them, whatever they may be, is enough to convict you of at least courting with anti-semitism, of not being as aware as you should be of whatever it is you haven’t actually said. I dislike the word even more now.


Trope, c'est trop


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## Serge Forward (Jun 29, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> I’m beginning to dislike the word ‘trope’. I must admit I had never even come across it until fairly recently, but now it’s everywhere, and every time I read it it’s accompanied by the word ‘anti-semitic’. Its usage is accusatory, denunciatory and indiscriminate. The advantage the user of the term acquires is that they no longer need proof, evidence or logical connection between other people’s statements and antisemitism. All they need is the accusation. You don’t even need to be aware that others in the past have used these tropes. The fact that you use them, whatever they may be, is enough to convict you of at least courting with anti-semitism, of not being as aware as you should be of whatever it is you haven’t actually said. I dislike the word even more now.


It's used as another version of the old "statistics have shown" (no statistic given) and "it's a well-known fact" style of arguing. That said, as some statistics and facts are real, so too are tropes. They can all be used correctly and in good faith.


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## Knotted (Jun 29, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> I’m beginning to dislike the word ‘trope’. I must admit I had never even come across it until fairly recently, but now it’s everywhere, and every time I read it it’s accompanied by the word ‘anti-semitic’. Its usage is accusatory, denunciatory and indiscriminate. The advantage the user of the term acquires is that they no longer need proof, evidence or logical connection between other people’s statements and antisemitism. All they need is the accusation. You don’t even need to be aware that others in the past have used these tropes. The fact that you use them, whatever they may be, is enough to convict you of at least courting with anti-semitism, of not being as aware as you should be of whatever it is you haven’t actually said. I dislike the word even more now.



I think Maxine Peake _did_ repeat an anti-semitic trope (ie. something that is part of the repeated rhetoric of what anti-semites are saying in practice) but in her doing so it should be a matter of encouraging correction rather than denunciation. And she did indeed correct herself, and her correction was perfect - ie. she doesn't wish to add fodder to racism and anti-semitism. It is very useful to be aware of these things, and I think we should talk about tropes more rather than less if anything. Otherwise it is an abstract debate along the lines "well I didn't mean _all_ Jews", ie. racism has a certain general form in terms of sweeping generalisations, stereotypes etc., rather than the living, breathing specifics of anti-semitism/racism.

But yes people can accidentally repeat these tropes especially when anti-semites are trying present their bigotry in terms of eg. criticisms of Israel. But the cure is to have greater awareness of these tropes not less. I think this is crucial to anti-racism and nurturing a culture of patience and explanation as opposed to moralism and denunciation is more important than Labour Party optics.


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## 19force8 (Jun 29, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I’m always happy to learn some union history. So tell me, would any of the strikes you’ve been involved in have been more successful had the leader of the LP pushed the leader of your union to adopt a different or more effective approach??
> 
> I agree with you about Labour councils. But that’s a different question. They are, nominally, under the same democratic policies and approach as the PLP and the Leader.


Imagine for a moment a Labour leader had got behind the teachers and urged the many thousands of members who are teachers to stand firm on the reopening of schools. Ridiculous, I know, but do you think it would have resulted in fewer schools being reopened or more?

The thing about Labour councils isn't a different question it's a key part of the compartmentalisation problem. There is absolutely no leadership other than "you won't get any support if you fight the cuts." The worst example of this was Kinnock using mistakes in Liverpool not as an opportunity to give a lead, but for factional advantage.


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## Spandex (Jun 29, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> I’m beginning to dislike the word ‘trope’. I must admit I had never even come across it until fairly recently, but now it’s everywhere, and every time I read it it’s accompanied by the word ‘anti-semitic’. Its usage is accusatory, denunciatory and indiscriminate. The advantage the user of the term acquires is that they no longer need proof, evidence or logical connection between other people’s statements and antisemitism. All they need is the accusation. You don’t even need to be aware that others in the past have used these tropes. The fact that you use them, whatever they may be, is enough to convict you of at least courting with anti-semitism, of not being as aware as you should be of whatever it is you haven’t actually said. I dislike the word even more now.


After the Nazis' attempted genocide of Jews explicit anti-Semitism became beyond the pale. No longer was it acceptable to openly complain eg. that rich Jews were secretly running governments and that they had to be stopped. But just because it wasn't acceptable to say it, 1000 years of anti-Semetic thought didn't just disappear. It was still widely out there. But if everyone except the most bigoted neo-Nazis was going round saying they have nothing against Jews, then how do you spot that anti-Semetic current that continued? By looking at what people are saying and seeing if it contains those age old anti-Semitic claims about Jews. By looking for anti-Semitic _tropes_. As with all ideological thought, people can be quite unaware that what they are saying contains assumptions based on well recognized ideas (see also liberals).

Now, there's a lot to criticize Israel for: it's a colonial state founded on ethnic cleansing that brutally represses the native population. But in criticizing the Israeli state people often slip into those ancient... what's the word..? Oh yeah... anti-Semitic _tropes_. And where that happens it's right that people are called out on it, keeping criticism of Israel on the Israeli state and its actions and not slipping into propagating anti-Semitic ideas that go back to the dark ages.


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## LDC (Jun 29, 2020)

Knotted said:


> I think Maxine Peake _did_ repeat an anti-semitic trope...



I agree (although I think she probably did so in ignorance), but there's plenty of denial and obfuscation in and outside the Labour party that was even the case though, and that's a really difficult starting point to deal with this.


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## bimble (Jun 29, 2020)

Ye but if people stopped “indiscriminately and without any evidence” going on about tropes just think how much less antisemitism there’d be! You’d only have the ones left who say I hate Jews, Jews smell etc. And then nobody would have to spend any time learning or thinking about all this and that’d be great wouldn’t it.


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## Smokeandsteam (Jun 29, 2020)

19force8 said:


> Imagine for a moment a Labour leader had got behind the teachers and urged the many thousands of members who are teachers to stand firm on the reopening of schools. Ridiculous, I know, but do you think it would have resulted in fewer schools being reopened or more?
> 
> The thing about Labour councils isn't a different question it's a key part of the compartmentalisation problem. There is absolutely no leadership other than "you won't get any support if you fight the cuts." The worst example of this was Kinnock using mistakes in Liverpool not as an opportunity to give a lead, but for factional advantage.



That’s not the same though is it? Asking a Labour leader to more actively support a dispute is not the same as demanding they they push union leaders or workers to take more effective action. The former should be a basic requirement. The latter I see no scope or legitimacy for. There is already a massive democratic disconnect in unions with unelected bureaucrats trying to call the shots and attempting to insert themselves into workplaces where they know, frankly, fuck all. We don’t need another layer of top down orders from politicians. Let’s put it this way - where I work if Corbyn or Starmer intervened in a dispute and was perceived to be telling us what to do or how to be ‘more effective’ members and stewards (bar the LP groupies of whom there are less than 10) would be raging. It would destroy shopfloor unity at a stroke.

I agree with you on the point about councils but it is an entirely different question in terms of process, agency and legitimacy.


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## Kevbad the Bad (Jun 29, 2020)

What Maxine Peake did was make an allegation which turned out to be incorrect. There’s no need to invoke any trope, but I can’t stop you if you really must. There was nothing anti-Semitic in what she said. She was claiming a link between the Israeli state and US policing practices. There is an obvious similarity between the tactics and procedures used by some US police forces and Israeli forces in Palestine. I think she can be forgiven for making assumptions, knowing as we all now do that US police officers often go to Israel for training.

RLB’s retweet was only blown up out of all proportion because Starmer wants to get rid of the Corbynite faction. That should be the thing to take away from all this.


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## Knotted (Jun 29, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> What Maxine Peake did was make an allegation which turned out to be incorrect. There’s no need to invoke any trope, but I can’t stop you if you really must. There was nothing anti-Semitic in what she said. She was claiming a link between the Israeli state and US policing practices. There is an obvious similarity between the tactics and procedures used by some US police forces and Israeli forces in Palestine. I think she can be forgiven for making assumptions, knowing as we all now do that US police officers often go to Israel for training.
> 
> RLB’s retweet was only blown up out of all proportion because Starmer wants to get rid of the Corbynite faction. That should be the thing to take away from all this.



I agree with all of this except the bit about there not being a need to talk about tropes.


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## Pickman's model (Jun 29, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> What Maxine Peake did was make an allegation which turned out to be incorrect. There’s no need to invoke any trope, but I can’t stop you if you really must. There was nothing anti-Semitic in what she said. She was claiming a link between the Israeli state and US policing practices. There is an obvious similarity between the tactics and procedures used by some US police forces and Israeli forces in Palestine. I think she can be forgiven for making assumptions, knowing as we all now do that US police officers often go to Israel for training.
> 
> RLB’s retweet was only blown up out of all proportion because Starmer wants to get rid of the Corbynite faction. That should be the thing to take away from all this.


not to mention that much of what was done can  be traced back to procedures shared by the ze with the us


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## kebabking (Jun 29, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> What Maxine Peake did was make an allegation which turned out to be incorrect. There’s no need to invoke any trope, but I can’t stop you if you really must. There was nothing anti-Semitic in what she said. She was claiming a link between the Israeli state and US policing practices. There is an obvious similarity between the tactics and procedures used by some US police forces and Israeli forces in Palestine. I think she can be forgiven for making assumptions, knowing as we all now do that US police officers often go to Israel for training.
> 
> RLB’s retweet was only blown up out of all proportion because Starmer wants to get rid of the Corbynite faction. That should be the thing to take away from all this.



Sorry, but this is fundamentally the problem that many on the left have with willful blindness to AS - Peake did not 'make a technical error', she repeated a frankly laughable conspiracy theory (that the Mossad, who are all just sitting around being bored with nothing going on in the ME, got on a plane to Shitkicker, Oaklahoma to teach a bunch of no-mark cops how to kneel on someone's throat).

The laughable nature of it is irrelevant to the casually anti-Semitic conspiraloon because it's got the words 'Israel' and 'Secret' in it, which makes it instantly believable, and not just believable, but certain, because Israel has its secret tentacles everywhere, in finance, in the media, in governments...

Through, you know, the Joos.

If MP had wanted to talk about racist, brutal policing she could easily have talked about China and the Uigyers, or Brazil and it's indigenous peoples, or half-a-hundred other examples - yes, including Israel - but why is it always Israel, and never China, or Brazil (for example) that gets mentioned, and why, when it's Israel, is the theme of it's 'secret influence' always tagging along there, a theme that exactly copies the theme of Israel's 'secret influence' in the media, or in finance?

It's because those _tropes_ are based on anti-Semitic views of Jews - in the shadows, the hidden hand, owning the world, running the banks.

The charitable version is that it's not seeing the wood for the trees, the less charitable version - and I'm afraid the one I believe to be true - is that anti-Semitism is the good racism, because it's about Israel, and capitalism.


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## Kevbad the Bad (Jun 29, 2020)

kebabking said:


> The charitable version is that it's not seeing the wood for the trees, the less charitable version - and I'm afraid the one I believe to be true - is that anti-Semitism is the good racism, because it's about Israel, and capitalism.


The state of Israel is not the same thing as international Jewry or any such thing. It is a specific state in a specific part of the world in its own specific timeline. It has been supported by the USA for years, diplomatically, politically and militarily. There are and have been links between the two states. Plenty of anti-Zionist Jews are and have been more vehemently critical of Israel and Israeli policies than Maxine Peake or Rebecca Long Bailey. Jewish Voice for Labour are one example, routinely ignored or denigrated by many. Jewish friends of mine (not in the Labour Party) don’t recognise the validity of these tropes, at least not in the way that they are currently being used as a weapon by the right wing of the 
Labour Party and by the media.


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## Knotted (Jun 29, 2020)

kebabking said:


> Sorry, but this is fundamentally the problem that many on the left have with willful blindness to AS - Peake did not 'make a technical error', she repeated a frankly laughable conspiracy theory (that the Mossad, who are all just sitting around being bored with nothing going on in the ME, got on a plane to Shitkicker, Oaklahoma to teach a bunch of no-mark cops how to kneel on someone's throat).
> 
> The laughable nature of it is irrelevant to the casually anti-Semitic conspiraloon because it's got the words 'Israel' and 'Secret' in it, which makes it instantly believable, and not just believable, but certain, because Israel has its secret tentacles everywhere, in finance, in the media, in governments...
> 
> ...



No, let's be honest about this. What Maxine Peake said was not a conspiracy theory. Israeli security services really have been training US police and that fact is significant though probably not relevant to the George Floyd case. What she did was say something a) technically incorrect and b) that aligns with what anti-semites such as Patrick Heningsen are saying. It's a simple matter of not giving succour to the likes of that, anything more and you are asserting Peake is in this deeper than you have any reason to believe she is.


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## Pickman's model (Jun 29, 2020)

kebabking said:


> Sorry, but this is fundamentally the problem that many on the left have with willful blindness to AS - Peake did not 'make a technical error', she repeated a frankly laughable conspiracy theory (that the Mossad, who are all just sitting around being bored with nothing going on in the ME, got on a plane to Shitkicker, Oaklahoma to teach a bunch of no-mark cops how to kneel on someone's throat).
> 
> The laughable nature of it is irrelevant to the casually anti-Semitic conspiraloon because it's got the words 'Israel' and 'Secret' in it, which makes it instantly believable, and not just believable, but certain, because Israel has its secret tentacles everywhere, in finance, in the media, in governments...
> 
> ...


training in repressive tactics is often provided in secret, or at least not given any prominence. the origins of tactics used at abu ghraib have hardly been all over the papers - they certainly weren't discussed in anything i saw at the time of the great scandal years back. and the activities of the ze or the tactics and information they offer spaces to discuss are often fairly hidden away. i think you've really got to be looking for anti-semitism to see it in this sort of thing.


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## two sheds (Jun 29, 2020)

kebabking said:


> Sorry, but this is fundamentally the problem that many on the left have with willful blindness to AS - Peake did not 'make a technical error', she repeated a frankly laughable conspiracy theory (that the Mossad, who are all just sitting around being bored with nothing going on in the ME, got on a plane to Shitkicker, Oaklahoma to teach a bunch of no-mark cops how to kneel on someone's throat).



Ah I missed that in her quote. Yes that's disgusting and definitely anti-semitic if she said all that. I thought she'd just said that the US had just had some training from them.


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## treelover (Jun 29, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> The quote is actually from a fella called Andrew Murray who spent 40 years in the Communist Party in an article here Vol 50: Socialist Register 2014: Registering Class                             | Socialist Register
> He says many things and we can all pick and chooses but on this .below, he is bang on the money
> 
> View attachment 219964


 Socialist Alliance, Socialist Unity, and even now Corbynism comes to mind, though towards the end some very good policies which would help W/C were coming to the fore.


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## treelover (Jun 29, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> I’m beginning to dislike the word ‘trope’. I must admit I had never even come across it until fairly recently, but now it’s everywhere, and every time I read it it’s accompanied by the word ‘anti-semitic’. Its usage is accusatory, denunciatory and indiscriminate. The advantage the user of the term acquires is that they no longer need proof, evidence or logical connection between other people’s statements and antisemitism. All they need is the accusation. You don’t even need to be aware that others in the past have used these tropes. The fact that you use them, whatever they may be, is enough to convict you of at least courting with anti-semitism, of not being as aware as you should be of whatever it is you haven’t actually said. I dislike the word even more now.



You haven't mentioned it is used from the left, as well, 'racist trope' etc.


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## Brixton Hatter (Jun 29, 2020)

Starmer calls Black Lives Matter a "moment" and suggests their proposals to defund the police are nonsense. Fuck me this guy is useless and surely this puts the nail in the coffin of any remaining claims he may have had to be an anti-racist.


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## Pickman's model (Jun 29, 2020)

treelover said:


> You haven't mentioned it is used from the left, as well, 'racist trope' etc.


you haven't mentioned its widespread use in literary criticism.


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## mauvais (Jun 29, 2020)

Realistically there is fuck all popular appetite to defund the police in the UK - but the UK police don't have MRAPs and grenade launchers. He's such an absolute bellend for not even being able to express that difference.


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## Pickman's model (Jun 29, 2020)

Brixton Hatter said:


> Starmer calls Black Lives Matter a "moment" and suggests their proposals to defund the police are nonsense. Fuck me this guy is useless and surely this puts the nail in the coffin of any remaining claims he may have had to be an anti-racist.



if i was in his position i would be saying something like 'most people don't want the police defunded, they want them to do their job. they want everyone to be treated equally by the police.  they want them to focus on cutting the crime which affects people most. they want crimes reported to be investigated. under my leadership the labour party agrees with and supports the black lives matter campaign, and a labour government will work with bame communities to place those concerns within the policies we pursue'.


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## NoXion (Jun 29, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> if i was in his position i would be saying something like 'most people don't want the police defunded, they want them to do their job. they want everyone to be treated equally by the police.  they want them to focus on cutting the crime which affects people most. they want crimes reported to be investigated. under my leadership the labour party agrees with and supports the black lives matter campaign, and a labour government will work with bame communities to place those concerns within the policies we pursue'.



Something like that would be so easy for him to say. Or so I'd have thought. The man is clearly more intent on appealing to "sensible" politics than in addressing concerns about the police.


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## Pickman's model (Jun 29, 2020)

NoXion said:


> Something like that would be so easy for him to say. Or so I'd have thought. The man is clearly more intent on appealing to "sensible" politics than in addressing concerns about the police.


it ought to be easy to say!

the simple narrative here is the history of the police and black people with on one hand the murder of stephen lawrence, the pisspoor early police response to that which let the murderers walk free and the subsequent macpherson report - in essence a history of treating crimes against bame people with less diligence than they ought; on the other hand a sorry history of killing black people and policing bame communities as though they were the enemy and the cops an occupying force. surely - SURELY - a leader of the labour party ought to be able to say 'these things are wrong and the labour party stands for a police force which serves all of us equally, which doesn't treat black people like second class citizens, which doesn't kill them, which treats crimes against black people as they would against white'. i can't imagine any previous leader of the labour party in the past fifty years talking like starmer is. harold wilson would have pointed to the race relations act etc and said 'we will build on this to incorporate bame people into british life' or similar. callaghan wouldn't have stood for it. even kinnock and blair and miliband would have been on the ball. it's frankly pitiful.


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## Lord Camomile (Jun 29, 2020)

Brixton Hatter said:


> Starmer calls Black Lives Matter a "moment" and suggests their proposals to defund the police are nonsense. Fuck me this guy is useless and surely this puts the nail in the coffin of any remaining claims he may have had to be an anti-racist.


Sadly, I there are many who would agree with him. The "no, not like that" brigade.


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## Jeff Robinson (Jun 29, 2020)

mauvais said:


> Realistically there is fuck all popular appetite to defund the police in the UK - but the UK police don't have MRAPs and grenade launchers. He's such an absolute bellend for not even being able to express that difference.



He could have also acknowledged the importance of investing in social care, education, drug rehab, jobs etc. to tackle the causes of crime and therefore the need for police (this is the point of defund the police).


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## Pickman's model (Jun 29, 2020)

Jeff Robinson said:


> He could have also acknowledged the importance of investing in social care, education, drug rehab, jobs etc. to tackle the causes of crime and therefore the need for police (this is the point of defund the police).


No one makes dramas about social care or rehab or job creation or tackling the causes of crime etc whereas a look at the TV listings for any night of the week will show who does get dramas made about them

Until these things are seen as as or more important than the police we'll always be in that place where the police are portrayed as the saviours of society (the male cop, and it's almost always a male cop with the broken marriage, clearly puts society before himself and far ahead of his wife)


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## ska invita (Jun 29, 2020)

Brixton Hatter said:


> Starmer calls Black Lives Matter a "moment" and suggests their proposals to defund the police are nonsense. Fuck me this guy is useless and surely this puts the nail in the coffin of any remaining claims he may have had to be an anti-racist.





Farcical


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## The39thStep (Jun 29, 2020)

mauvais said:


> Realistically there is fuck all popular appetite to defund the police in the UK - but the UK police don't have MRAPs and grenade launchers. He's such an absolute bellend for not even being able to express that difference.


Is anyone actually calling for defunding the police over here?


----------



## platinumsage (Jun 29, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Is anyone actually calling for defunding the police over here?



BLMUK, who in response to this Starmer video have now "clarified" their earlier call to do just that:


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Jun 29, 2020)

Exactly. Tackling the causes, not the symptoms.

But I'd also like to defund the militarisation of the police, the facial recognition tools etc.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 29, 2020)

platinumsage said:


> BLMUK, who in response to this Starmer video have now "clarified" their earlier call to do just that:



To most people having experienced cuts in neighbourhood policing , burglaries where the crime is just reported , anti social behaviour where nothing is done the idea that the Poluce are defunded to fund preventive services makes little or no sense . Perhaps it’s an unfortunate trans Atlantic slogan that’s been imported but it just doesn’t fit . Preventive services have been cut since Cameron took office , I’d whole heartedly support a campaign for them to be funded anti gang strategies , more funding for drug alcohol and mental health services , prevention for vulnerable kids recruited into country lines etc etc . However it’s not the funding for police v funding for prevention that is really the argument is it ?


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 29, 2020)

Brixton Hatter said:


> Exactly. Tackling the causes, not the symptoms.
> 
> But I'd also like to defund the militarisation of the police, the facial recognition tools etc.


Aside from facial recognition which has been used for easily a decade or more via cctv and could hardly be described as militarisation, what exactly are you thinking of when you say ‘ defund  the militarisation of the Police ‘ in the UK ?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jun 29, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> To most people having experienced cuts in neighbourhood policing , burglaries where the crime is just reported , anti social behaviour where nothing is done the idea that the Poluce are defunded to fund preventive services makes little or no sense . Perhaps it’s an unfortunate trans Atlantic slogan that’s been imported but it just doesn’t fit . Preventive services have been cut since Cameron took office , I’d whole heartedly support a campaign for them to be funded anti gang strategies , more funding for drug alcohol and mental health services , prevention for vulnerable kids recruited into country lines etc etc . However it’s not the funding for police v funding for prevention that is really the argument is it ?



Shouldn’t Labour be going a bit further than ‘tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime’ patter?

Surely, given their commitment to community engagement and deep community organising why aren’t Labour calling for effective strategies that necessarily need to be local and which fully involve the local community in their design and implementation? For example, a strategy that works in a district of a city might look different to one that might work in a town?

The question of the role of the police, it’s resources and approach would be integrated in to these plans. They would also be subordinate to the wider plan.

‘Defund the police’ as a slogan should be understood as the empty slogan it is. It’s reflective of a fantasy rather than an expression of concrete lived experience. What communities do want, is some say and control over their areas and how they are made safe and how they are and by who.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 29, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Shouldn’t Labour be going a bit further than ‘tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime’ patter?
> 
> Surely, given their commitment to community engagement and deep community organising why aren’t Labour calling for effective strategies that necessarily need to be local and which fully involve the local community in their design and implementation? For example, a strategy that works in a district of a city might look different to one that might work in a town?
> 
> ...


I’m not sure aside from a few comments from Nandy that there is any commitment to community organising or engagement at all tbh . 
Tbh there is already a fairly high integration of services at a local level however you are absolutely right about the lack of community involvement in setting priorities and the standards they expect .There was some attempt to do this around the last years of Labour and the first years of the coalition but it was hampered by trying to merge national targets with local targets , the money from govt following that national targets . There were also some no go areas ie child protection , missing from homes , ‘problem families’ in which there was no community involvement and a leave it to the professionals type approach always passed off as ‘evidence based practice’ . Youth Services  inspected by Offsted aren’t local community friendly , over zealous auditing isn’t community friendly , setting targets on the voluntary and community sector in which more time is spent on adhering you those processes than the actual outcomes aren’t community friendly . There’s also the tendency to reach for the large charity organisations to deliver services rather than local providers because they are good at following all the procedures and caveats . But yes you are right local plans delivered at local levels empowering communities would make a huge difference. The question is how can it be delivered by those communities without the funders  turning off the taps  .


----------



## DJWrongspeed (Jun 29, 2020)

It's good time to reflect on Social Media and the internet. Where was the "think before you use" moment for politicians. Twitter et al came upon society without anyone thinking through what it's consequences were.
Who makes the decisions who enframe us in this technology?

I'm referring to all the all preceding mess politicians have go themselves into on twitter & fb.


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 29, 2020)

As it happens I started reading the US book The End of Policing by Vitale today. From which the Defund the Police idea comes from.

It is mainly about US. 

The last big change in this country to policing was the 80s. I remember the first Brixton Riot. Police didnt have the equipment to deal with it. By the mid 80s they were tooled up and ready for riots. The Miners strike was another example. This would be the police, following Vitale,  reverting to their primary purpose which is controling Black people and the working class to protect the interests of elites.

Its not about a few rotten apples. When push comes to shove even "nice" police have to get stuck in. 

So whilst police here dont have grenade launchers they are more tooled up for trouble than when I remember growing up. From the 80s they "militarised" to extent they are trained and equiped for dealing with social disorder. 

Vitale would argue that keeping people safe from burglary is minor part of police job and they arent that effective at it. 

On this country.

I do live in area with large BAME population. Brixton area. Relations with police have been strained for decades. Community meeting after a murder in my area last year and local people were criticising police for disrespecting youth and also complaining youth services have been cut. So like the new BLM they wanted money spent on youth services. 

Recently since the new BLM here I've seen the police being confronted more. For example opposite my flat few weeks ago police tried to arrest some poor old Black guy. As usual three police vehicles. Several people came over to film police and argue with them. Obviously didn't know the guy but were walking in the street at the time. I used to see that a lot in 80s. One thing BLM have done is give people confidence to question police once more. Which is good. 

So I would say BLM arent that out of line with how my local Black community feel. 

There is whole lot of funding for policing which should be up for criticism. The "Prevent" strategy the "Gangs Matrix" are two. The money spent on these would be better spent on youth services.


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 29, 2020)

On communiity organising and the Labour party.

There are two kinds:


Steve Reed leader of Council ( now MP. Was very New Labour) some years back made Lambeth Council a Coop Council. This was about changing welfare state from top down ( creating dependency culture) to bottom up. With local community encouraged to take on services. It was partly a privatisation agenda. Similar to Cameron Big Society. Also brought in area managers who were supposed to consult with community in neighbourhood forums. Which sort of worked until people started to use it to oppose  particular Council decisions. Then it turned a bit unpleasant.

Second recent one was successful campaign to protect a local shop being evicted by a property developer. Campaign was led by the new younger members of Lambeth Labour.  Those who joined due to Corbyn.   Which was very popular locally. It was a campaign against gentrification. I could see some of my more Starmer type Cllrs weren't comfortable with a public campaign. 

So community organising always has been around. Its that the Labour party ( in my experience locally) hasn't been keen on it for years. Im afraid that now they have got rid of Corbyn ( my long standing Cllrs were quite open about hostility to Corbyn and what he represented) the  new young membership who want to do community campaigning will leave. I hope not. 

All my New Labour Cllrs wanted Starmer- I check there twitter and they wanted him from the start of the  leadership race.


----------



## ska invita (Jun 29, 2020)

as came up on the BLM thread...
NYPD annual budget =  5.6 billion USD
Met police annual budget =  3.24 billion GBP
Big money shitly spent, id be all up for defund the police as BLM set out -  using massive chunks of that budget proactively to improve peoples lives and opportunities.

Anyway this thread is about Brave Brave Sir Starmer. The most depressing thing about the clip is not him misrepresetning and distancing himself from defunding the police, its him saying BLM is not a movement its a moment, and its just a reaction to an event far far way in the USA. Its a total insult, and is so far the worse thing I've heard him say or do as party leader. I can only hope BLM-UK hound him and Labour for the next four years and make him somehow choke on his "its a moment" line.


----------



## Sprocket. (Jun 29, 2020)

I’ve had more newsletters and emails about community involvement from the Cooperative Party than the Labour Party in the last six months.
I know two sides of the same coin, but one seems more interested in local people than going on tv and spouting sound bites.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 29, 2020)

Gramsci said:


> As it happens I started reading the US book The End of Policing by Vitale today. From which the Defund the Police idea comes from.
> 
> It is mainly about US.
> 
> ...


I think its healthy to be critical of both Prevent and The Gangs Matrix but I've never seen anyone propose an alternative to either.


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 29, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> I think its healthy to be critical of both Prevent and The Gangs Matrix but I've never seen anyone propose an alternative to either.



Why should I propose an alternative?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 29, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> To most people having experienced cuts in neighbourhood policing , burglaries where the crime is just reported , anti social behaviour where nothing is done the idea that the Poluce are defunded to fund preventive services makes little or no sense . Perhaps it’s an unfortunate trans Atlantic slogan that’s been imported but it just doesn’t fit . Preventive services have been cut since Cameron took office , I’d whole heartedly support a campaign for them to be funded anti gang strategies , more funding for drug alcohol and mental health services , prevention for vulnerable kids recruited into country lines etc etc . However it’s not the funding for police v funding for prevention that is really the argument is it ?


The anti-gang strategies of today will be the anti-political activist strategies of tomorrow


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 29, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> I think its healthy to be critical of both Prevent and The Gangs Matrix but I've never seen anyone propose an alternative to either.


How about doing things differently in a way that works without placing victims of gangs on the gang matrix and without making bame communities the focus of counter-insurgency strategies


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 29, 2020)

Gramsci said:


> Why should I propose an alternative?


Depends if you or any others you know want to prevent the radicalisation of young people into flirting with terrorism  or their recruitment into gangs I suppose.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 29, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> How about doing things differently in a way that works without placing victims of gangs on the gang matrix and without making bame communities the focus of counter-insurgency strategies


Yes both perfectly reasonable imo


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 29, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> The anti-gang strategies of today will be the anti-political activist strategies of tomorrow


Not entirely sure that the latter is seen as the same  threat in communities  tbh


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 29, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> I think its healthy to be critical of both Prevent and The Gangs Matrix but I've never seen anyone propose an alternative to either.



The other view in my area is for example from a youth worker who runs a charity. Her view is the one of getting police to do their job properly in conjunction with local people. Work and support local projects that work with young people. Which she is good at btw. So I would say she is not about defunding police but getting money spent on community policing.


----------



## Raheem (Jun 29, 2020)

Not sure if it's his belief in the police as an institution or just the chance to talk about his CV for a bit, but it is weird how Starmer's characteristic lifelessness briefly lifts in the clip.


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 29, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Depends if you or any others you know want to prevent the radicalisation of young people into flirting with terrorism  or their recruitment into gangs I suppose.



Funnily enough my local youth centre does a lot of work with youth in danger of ending up in gangs.The youth workers are the ones most critical of police and how they treat young people in the area.

The youth centre is desparate for funds. It hasnt been able to provide all the services it wants.


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## The39thStep (Jun 29, 2020)

Gramsci said:


> Funnily enough my local youth centre does a lot of work with youth in danger of ending up in gangs.The youth workers are the ones most critical of police and how they treat young people in the area.
> 
> The youth centre is desparate for funds. It hasnt been able to provide all the services it wants.


I'm sure they do and I'm equally sure they should be funded  and their views  should be represented in any anti gang strategy. My original question was about what an alternative to the gang matrix should look like


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## Humberto (Jun 30, 2020)

We have to look after the young better. Young people are 'written off' at a young age in many cases. We need a better balance where law enforcement and the appointed officers are concerned with duty and reluctant to use force. Some of the things people are othered for  by law are inevitable from their circumstances. Even the ones who resist still face limited options and are sneered at. And when it proves impossible for many, they get a poke in the ribs from self-congratulatory gentry and spivs.


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## Pickman's model (Jun 30, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Not entirely sure that the latter is seen as the same  threat in communities  tbh


of course they're not. But from the pov of cops ..


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## agricola (Jun 30, 2020)

Gramsci said:


> The other view in my area is for example from a youth worker who runs a charity. Her view is the one of getting police to do their job properly in conjunction with local people. Work and support local projects that work with young people. Which she is good at btw. So I would say she is not about defunding police *but getting money spent on community policing*.



Which of course is precisely the bit that got cut the most between 2010 and now.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 30, 2020)

Sprocket. said:


> I’ve had more newsletters and emails about community involvement from the Cooperative Party than the Labour Party in the last six months.
> I know two sides of the same coin, but one seems more interested in local people than going on tv and spouting sound bites.


if sound bites need to be spouted they ought to be ones which get people behind you and not ones which make you look a pompous arse


----------



## ska invita (Jun 30, 2020)

theres a lot of this kind of thing out there today....


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## Pickman's model (Jun 30, 2020)

ska invita said:


> theres a lot of this kind of thing out there today....



perhaps there was a typo in his briefing notes and the simple omission of a v and an e changed the meaning of his comments entirely


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 30, 2020)

Raheem said:


> Not sure if it's his belief in the police as an institution or just the chance to talk about his CV for a bit, but it is weird how Starmer's characteristic lifelessness briefly lifts in the clip.



Wow. Just wow. 

The arrogance of standing there saying what BLM is and ought to be about. _It's not about him. _


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 30, 2020)

He is just fucking Blair, isn't he. So desperate to show that he's not a threat, to show that he's just like the tories really.


----------



## 19force8 (Jun 30, 2020)

ska invita said:


> theres a lot of this kind of thing out there today....


2,400+ replies on that Warwick Labour tweet.

The centrist dads are back.


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## treelover (Jun 30, 2020)

ska invita said:


> theres a lot of this kind of thing out there today....




its not nonsense, but it is not Starmers main task, when many milllions inc lots of youth and bame are going to be unemployed, some for a very long time.


----------



## teqniq (Jun 30, 2020)

Pretty much on the money imo:









						Jude Wanga | Labour’s Short-Term Thinking · LRB 30 June 2020
					

On Friday – when the Conservative government was attempting to shrug off another day of scandal focused on the housing...




					www.lrb.co.uk


----------



## treelover (Jun 30, 2020)

Do you have a subscription for LRB?  they seem to have some great articles


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## teqniq (Jun 30, 2020)

no


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## killer b (Jun 30, 2020)

treelover said:


> its not nonsense, but it is not Starmers main task, when many milllions inc lots of youth and bame are going to be unemployed, some for a very long time.


Just bookmarking this for next time you complain about disability stuff being overlooked.


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 30, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> I'm sure they do and I'm equally sure they should be funded  and their views  should be represented in any anti gang strategy. My original question was about what an alternative to the gang matrix should look like



Been reading about this today. Amnesty have taken this this up. A lot of articles.









						Trapped in the Gangs Matrix
					

We are Amnesty International UK. We are ordinary people from across the world standing up for humanity and human rights.




					www.amnesty.org.uk
				




For starters black youth are over represented in the Gang Matrix. A lot of violent incidents are unrelated to gangs. 

Worse the Police are working with , for example , housing associations and Councils to threaten families who have son who is alleged to be involved in gangs with eviction from their homes. 

This I find , as someone who is involved in local community over the years as Tenants rep and local Neighbourhood forums, increases me not trusting those in authority.

This kind of working of police with other local state officials to control young people who arent convicted of anything but come under the cops radar I find deeply troubling.

That is what the Gangs Matrix has done. 

So I would abolish it. Police have loads of powers. They can get up off their arses and do proper policing Gather evidence and put someone on trial in front of jury.
Police sending letters saying they will work with housing officials to evict on suspicion of gang membership is not justice. 

Having had enough of having to deal with Council recently ( stand up row with local Labour Clllrs last week) Im totally pissed off with well paid officials and Cllrs on big allowances running my community. 

Reading up about how Gang Matrix works and it just proves my experience of those in authority over me.


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## Gramsci (Jul 1, 2020)

teqniq said:


> Pretty much on the money imo:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I found Starmers dismissal of BLM as a "moment" infuriating.

Inner city BAME voter as in my patch Brixton stuck to Labour at last election.

During the BLM demos I saw lot of local Black youth going to the demos from my area.


Its as the article says:



> It seems that the party’s plan for the next general election is to fight the battles it lost in 2019, in the hope of recovering ‘red wall’ seats and ‘shy Tory’ voters, even if it means sacrificing ethnic minority votes. Either that, or they are hoping those ethnic minority voters will have nowhere else to go (as Peter Mandelson once said of the voters Labour is now trying to woo back)


----------



## Shechemite (Jul 1, 2020)

the moment comment was daft. dafter still to defund the police


----------



## 19force8 (Jul 1, 2020)

I never thought I'd be grateful to live in a stone cold Tory town, but then:

I'm afraid it's a thread.

The TLDR is another Blairite was thrust upon them despite pleas to the leftist leaders


----------



## teqniq (Jul 3, 2020)

.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jul 4, 2020)

5 degrees of separation.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jul 4, 2020)

Brixton Hatter said:


> Starmer calls Black Lives Matter a "moment" and suggests their proposals to defund the police are nonsense. Fuck me this guy is useless and surely this puts the nail in the coffin of any remaining claims he may have had to be an anti-racist.



What on earth is that sudden movement at 0.20 about?


----------



## Raheem (Jul 4, 2020)

S☼I said:


> What on earth is that sudden movement at 0.20 about?


Was it your gag reflex?


----------



## two sheds (Jul 4, 2020)

I think you'll find it was a moment rather than a movement.


----------



## vanya (Jul 4, 2020)

The Weakness of Starmerism
					

I almost added it as a foot note to the piece about Tory short-termism . Asked about the loosening of lock down measures this weekend and,...




					averypublicsociologist.blogspot.com
				






> I almost added it as a foot note to the piece about Tory short-termism. Asked about the loosening of lock down measures this weekend and, above all, opening the pubs up again, in line with his stance on schools Keir Starmer supports these too. Speaking to ITV earlier, shadow chancellor Anneliese Dodds said the same thing and urged people to go out, spend money and otherwise partake. As Labour's leader isn't driven by a whack-a-mole approach to politics nor has to hold together a declining electoral coalition glued together by nationalist delusion, bloody mindedness, and fear, why is Labour going along with a strategy that, to put it mildly, is borderline sociopathic?
> 
> There are two things worth recalling here: one is about the everyday aspect of mainstream politics, and another that reaches into the core of Labourism. All politicians look for an easy life, and the easy life is where (they think) most voters are, and the best indicator of this - from within the point of view of bourgeois politics - is what the press say. After all, they sell papers and so have to reflect the opinion of readers out there otherwise no one would buy them, right? Hence there's never been a time when Tory MPs have worried about a _Morning Star_ editorial. Leaving aside their dwindling circulations, politicians want to inhabit what former Brown aide Mike Jacobs called a 'normal operating sphere' of non-punishment. This normally comes into play for governments, but given Keir's studied statesmanly gait he shares a similar concern. Because Corbyn was bad, he has to be good, and this means over-emphasising conventional notions of electability and game playing. And so accepting Tory plans for schools, for pubs, their whole framing of the coronavirus crisis in fact, means Boris Johnson would be hard-pressed to lump Labour in with "the ditherers", therefore shutting down one line of attack that might resonate with the Tory faithful and their new periphery of Brexity vote-lenders. This in turn means Keir can play politics to his strengths, which is contrasting his shovel-ready leadership qualities versus the bumbling incompetence of Johnson.
> 
> ...


----------



## Raheem (Jul 6, 2020)

Apparently Starmer has volunteered to do unconscious racial bias training. Anyone got a baseball bat?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 6, 2020)

i thought that he might be quite competent and efficient in the style of tony blair - a right wing shit with some ability. that he would be a great difference to johnson. but he's starting to look more weak and wobbly than strong and stable.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jul 6, 2020)

Of course he picked BrewDog.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jul 6, 2020)

Still wearing a tie. As a Normal Member Of The Public I think I would identify with his down to earth normalness a little bit more if he took it off like that nice Dave bloke.


----------



## William of Walworth (Jul 6, 2020)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> down to earth boringness



Corrected for you  

Other than picking Brewdog  as an example (how many other, better breweries could he have choosen from?  ), what he said in that soundbite was harmless, inoffensive stuff.

But dull as ditchwater ......


----------



## mauvais (Jul 6, 2020)

William of Walworth said:


> (how many other, better breweries could he have choosen from?  )


Any?


----------



## William of Walworth (Jul 6, 2020)

mauvais said:


> Any?



That was my point more or less!

TBF, I could easily have been just as pissed off if he'd visited one of those 'brewed under licence' factories such as Carlsberg or similar ...


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 6, 2020)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Of course he picked BrewDog.



Looks like an aspiring new area manager for the brewery that has just realised there might be a bonus this month


----------



## mauvais (Jul 6, 2020)

William of Walworth said:


> That was my point more or less!


Ah, OK.



William of Walworth said:


> TBF, I could easily have been just as pissed off if he'd visited one of those 'brewed under licence' factories such as Carlsberg or similar ...


See - and it doesn't really matter because I think the man is a useless twat regardless - I would think it much more fitting if he went and toured AB InBev HQ or something, because that's exactly what we expect from these corporatist people. That someone actually thought it would be better to not do that and then picked Brewdog, for reasons, is _much _more insulting.


----------



## William of Walworth (Jul 6, 2020)

mauvais said:


> Ah, OK.
> 
> See - and it doesn't really matter because I think the man is a useless twat regardless - I would think it much more fitting if he went and toured AB InBev HQ or something, because that's exactly what we expect from these corporatist people. That someone actually thought it would be better to not do that and then picked Brewdog, for reasons, is _much _more insulting.




Absolutely agree, but it would have been a piece of piss to pick a fairly harmless medium sized decent brewery that's  independent, has better-than-OK beer, which isn't as _pricey_ as Brewdog's  ....

Wadsworth, Adnams, St. Austell, Butcombe, Wye Valley, etc. - just to mention a few nice examples, just Southern English ones** -- from quite a long list. (Even better breweries to pick from in the North, but I'll spare you  )

**Definitely not Greene King though!!


----------



## Raheem (Jul 6, 2020)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Of course he picked BrewDog.



What that video doesn't have is the standard thing of a politician drinking the top half-inch of a pint of bitter to barrage of camera flashes, as if they were performing a magic trick. Somehow doesn't feel complete without it.


----------



## killer b (Jul 6, 2020)

They chose brewdog because of the Barnard Castle Eye test beer didn't they.


----------



## scifisam (Jul 6, 2020)

I was about to say that they also made hand sanitiser for free, but so did Adnam's. I guess they're not as hip.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 6, 2020)

Rather go for a pint with Ken Clarke than him , at least Ken would buy a round


----------



## Spandex (Jul 6, 2020)

Is Keir Starmer really J.R. "Bob" Dodds?











Is he an entryist for the Church of the SubGenius? This question needs urgent enquires...


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jul 6, 2020)

> Keir Starmer has welcomed an endorsement from former _Top Gear_ presenter Jeremy Clarkson, suggesting it is a sign "that people are beginning to notice that the Labour party has changed".











						Jeremy Clarkson endorsement shows Labour has changed, says Keir Starmer
					

Former Top Gear presenter said he could vote Labour




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## two sheds (Jul 6, 2020)

Yep racist twats like him are just who Labour want to appeal to.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jul 6, 2020)

Puddy_Tat said:


> Jeremy Clarkson endorsement shows Labour has changed, says Keir Starmer
> 
> 
> Former Top Gear presenter said he could vote Labour
> ...


Awesome. Attracting praise from the sort of person who says the sort of things Clarkson says. Forensic and electable, yay


----------



## DJWrongspeed (Jul 6, 2020)

agricola said:


> I voted for Starmer. I don't think he has covered himself in glory over the past few seconds and was virtually absent on the Coronavirus debate. This has possibly cost a lot of anti-Coronavirus votes. His time is up. He should go. Give the party time to elect a leader and sort themselves out before the next election.


Can we rename this thread because Starmer ain't going anywhere?


----------



## Raheem (Jul 6, 2020)

two sheds said:


> Yep racist twats like him are just who Labour want to appeal to.


Works with or without sarcasm.


----------



## ska invita (Jul 13, 2020)

yawn


----------



## 19force8 (Jul 16, 2020)

Labour set to apologise to antisemitism whistleblowers
					

Exclusive: party attempts to draw line under allegations made during Jeremy Corbyn era




					web.archive.org
				




Even though I gave up on Starmer months ago this is a shocker. The members' money being tossed away here is an outrage.

Of course that doesn't matter now as I'm sure the new business friendly Labour Party will be awash with corporate donations by 2024.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jul 16, 2020)

_'Hostility to Corbyn's leadership hampered smooth running of complaints procedures.'_

That's one way of putting it I suppose.


----------



## Indeliblelink (Jul 16, 2020)

Lloyd Russell-Moyle has resigned from the shadow front bench.'


----------



## Shechemite (Jul 16, 2020)

Is he taking the mace?


----------



## brogdale (Jul 16, 2020)

Indeliblelink said:


> Lloyd Russell-Moyle has resigned from the shadow front bench.'
> View attachment 222554


To spend more time with his property portfolio?


----------



## Badgers (Jul 22, 2020)

Has he awoke?


----------



## Shechemite (Jul 22, 2020)

Labour the party of national security. They could win on that


----------



## Shechemite (Jul 22, 2020)

Der Starmer


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jul 22, 2020)

Badgers said:


> Has he awoke?



Only when his ego was threatened.


----------



## Badgers (Jul 22, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Labour the party of national security. They could win on that


Nobody wins anymore, they just fail with less fuss.


----------



## red & green (Jul 22, 2020)

KS always looks like he is about to draft a letter before claim ....😬


----------



## Shechemite (Jul 22, 2020)

Pained yet Restrained


----------



## Shechemite (Jul 24, 2020)

Kiss of death


----------



## teqniq (Jul 24, 2020)

Certainly is. But as if it was needed.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Jul 24, 2020)

Why doesn’t someone just tell Blair to shut the fuck up?
Oh, they have. 
(puzzled expression)


----------



## teqniq (Jul 25, 2020)

This does indeed seem to me to be the hight of folly:









						Keir Starmer has pushed the self-destruct button on the Labour Party - Dorset Eye
					

I’ve got to ask all the Starmer supporters if they think the people acting on behalf of some of the staff exposed in the leaked Labour Report actually care about the Labour Party? If you’ve followed events this week you’ll know that some of these people are looking to bring another 20-30 cases...




					dorseteye.com


----------



## Sasaferrato (Jul 26, 2020)

teqniq said:


> This does indeed seem to me to be the hight of folly:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That is skirting very close to libel in my view. 

That said, I spent quite a while last night reading the leaked report... ferrets in a sack doesn't quite cover it.


----------



## teqniq (Jul 26, 2020)

This may already have been posted, somewhere. Apologies if so:









						Jeremy Corbyn’s Opponents Burned the House Down to Stop Him — Now Keir Starmer Is King of the Ashes
					

By sacking Rebecca Long-Bailey on a trumped-up pretext, Keir Starmer has set the seal on a drastic shift to the right for the British Labour Party. That shift comes just as the key arguments by Jeremy Corbyn’s opponents to justify a break with his left leadership have been falling apart in the...




					jacobinmag.com


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jul 26, 2020)

Sasaferrato said:


> That is skirting very close to libel in my view.



Starmer won't have the funds to launch any legal cases of his after he's coughed up to settle everyone else's. 

Oh well, lay down with dogs and you get fleas. Starmer got his job because of the actions a bunch of wreckers and backstabbers, if he gets cleaned out and ruined by the same now, that's just a necessary narrative consequence. Just a pity the country now has to endure its worst ever government without even a token opposition.


----------



## mauvais (Aug 16, 2020)

But Keir, the school is on fire!

NO IFS, NO BUTS


----------



## strung out (Aug 16, 2020)

Has he put Boris on notice to get a  grip again?


----------



## tommers (Aug 16, 2020)

Jesus christ. Hell yes I'm tough enough.


----------



## CNT36 (Aug 16, 2020)

No ifs, no buts, no equivocation, no fucking idea.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Aug 16, 2020)

Absolute state of it.


----------



## two sheds (Aug 16, 2020)

Not bothered about whether there are measures in place to make kids and children are safe then, not even a mention, certainly doesn't seem to want or expect that.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Aug 16, 2020)

Morals


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 16, 2020)

As ever his only objection to anything Johnson does is procedural, not ideological.

Have we heard anything from him on the A level fiasco? He had quite a promising shadow education minister at one point, I wonder what happened to her?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 16, 2020)

I can imagine the high fives in his office once the Mail on Sunday agreed to run the story. But if they think that this is what the ‘red wall‘ is thinking they are miles off the mark. People are scared and want their kids (and therefore schools) safe before they send them back.


----------



## mauvais (Aug 16, 2020)

Someone pointed out that it actually somehow puts him in an even worse position than the Tories if/when this goes wrong.


----------



## Smangus (Aug 16, 2020)

Yes, but isn't  he looking soooo Prime Ministerial!! swoon.....


----------



## SE25 (Aug 16, 2020)

I hate him so much

shame on those who fell for it

edit: seriously though, this cunt is like having the fkn worse Miliband as leader. How did anyone buy his snake oil?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 16, 2020)

SE25 said:


> I hate him so much
> 
> shame on those who fell for it
> 
> edit: seriously though, this cunt is like having the fkn worse Miliband as leader. How did anyone buy his snake oil?



What’s astonishing is the rapidity with which Labour has retreated from any vestiges of a social democratic project, and has re-entered the terrain of competing to be the most effective managers of the neo-liberal orthodoxy. That’s the real achievement of the first 100 days of Starmer.

It’s says something about how deeply embedded the social democratic project was, and also how effectively organised the battalions of the left that emerged under Corbyn were and just how shaky its political education footings were.

And, I think this is the key point, that as we emerge into the second economic crisis of the decade that the forthcoming debate is going to be limited to how to save the orthodoxy and patch it up rather than a debate about whether or not now is the time to take a step away from it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 16, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> What’s astonishing is the rapidity with which Labour has retreated from any vestiges of a social democratic project, and has re-entered the terrain of competing to be the most effective managers of the neo-liberal orthodoxy. That’s the real achievement of the first 100 days of Starmer.
> 
> It’s says something about how deeply embedded the social democratic project was, and also how effectively organised the battalions of the left that emerged under Corbyn were and just how shaky its political education footings were.
> 
> And, I think this is the key point, that as we emerge into the second economic crisis of the decade that the forthcoming debate is going to be limited to how to save the orthodoxy and patch it up rather than to take a step away from it.


The lesson from all this ought to be reiterating the auld adage don't waste time in or indeed in the labour party


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 16, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> The lesson from all this ought to be reiterating the auld adage don't waste time in or indeed in the labour party



It should. But I suspect the penny still hasn’t dropped for some.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 16, 2020)

Even Blair's people think that Captain creosote is shite.


----------



## belboid (Aug 16, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> What’s astonishing is the rapidity with which Labour has retreated from any vestiges of a social democratic project, and has re-entered the terrain of competing to be the most effective managers of the neo-liberal orthodoxy. That’s the real achievement of the first 100 days of Starmer.
> 
> It’s says something about how deeply embedded the social democratic project was, and also how effectively organised the battalions of the left that emerged under Corbyn were and just how shaky its political education footings were.
> 
> And, I think this is the key point, that as we emerge into the second economic crisis of the decade that the forthcoming debate is going to be limited to how to save the orthodoxy and patch it up rather than a debate about whether or not now is the time to take a step away from it.


it isn't astonishing at all.  It is the entire history of the Labour Party and reformism.   Just how bad Starmer is at it is slightly surprising, but that's all.


----------



## Raheem (Aug 16, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Even Blair's people think that Captain creosote is shite.
> 
> View attachment 226826


He's not wrong, but I bet he is also disgruntled that they are not asking for his advice.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 16, 2020)

belboid said:


> it isn't astonishing at all.  It is the entire history of the Labour Party and reformism.   Just how bad Starmer is at it is slightly surprising, but that's all.



That’s true, but I can’t think of a comparable point in its history when the shift has been so rapid and met such limited resistance.

Agreed that Starmer is bad at it.


----------



## tommers (Aug 16, 2020)

Things like this are making me laugh bitterly today. There is lots of it about.


----------



## tommers (Aug 16, 2020)

Imagine undermining a labour leader. Bloody liberty.


----------



## splonkydoo (Aug 17, 2020)

Stop the Tories by....eh...yes.., great idea! by becoming them of course!


----------



## redsquirrel (Aug 17, 2020)

belboid said:


> it isn't astonishing at all.  It is the entire history of the Labour Party and reformism.   Just how bad Starmer is at it is slightly surprising, but that's all.


And yet when such a history was pointed out by some the response was that people were being unduly critical of the LP, that the LP was the best means to effect socialism, with a load of old clichés about revolutions thrown about. 

If the history of the LP meant that such a sell out was inevitable then why were people (on here and wider) insisting that the LP was a party that could bring about democratic socialism? I mean sure there's no point in people just engaging in some sort of performative _mea culpa_, but some sort of joint up thinking would be good. And if Starmer is so shit, if it the course taken was (pretty much) inevitable then what next?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 17, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> if Starmer is so shit, if it the course taken was (pretty much) inevitable then what next?



I can offer 3 suggestions on what comes next:

1.Parts of the corbynite hinterland will make their peace with the reality staring them in the face. Either for career reasons, or just because their political footings were as deep as a grain of sand in the first place. We can expect this group to become engaged in demanding further disparity correction under neo-liberalism, deepened commitment to identity causes and long thought pieces providing left language cover for the accommodation that is being made.

intersecting with the above group a larger group is likely to become engaged in a 1980’s CPLD style tussle for internal control over parts of the Party. Starmer will be able to win praise from the commentariat for periodic crackdowns on this grouping.

2. A significant segment will simply drift away from the LP or political activity entirely. At best some will become involved in other activity in a similar manner to the 1980’s.

3. After December and the defeat there was a consensus that there would be no shortcuts and that hard work was needed to win back working class towns lost to the tories. There was an acceptance that the collective institutions that once made social democratic politics viable and which created the conditions for it would need to be rebuilt. My tentative final suggestion is that if this is going to happen it will need to happen outside of labour.


----------



## mauvais (Aug 17, 2020)

The difficulty with predicting anything is there are huge wildcards waiting to play out. The country is in a huge mess already but between recession, Covid consequences, Brexit and whatever else we're all going to feel it very much more acutely over time, and experience it more as permanence rather than a temporary emergency that can be tolerated for a time. I think it's going to be severe enough that it's unlikely to take a full election cycle to come to a head, personally, but who knows. At that point it may mostly depend how much people want rid of the Tories (who may present a new leader) in favour of the stereotypical idea of Labour - public services by way of being loose with money. That's distinct from what happened to Corbyn. Despite everything, as we see in current polling, I'm by no means sure it reflects conditions where Labour can automatically win.

On that note I don't think Starmer himself has what it takes to win, I don't mean on a left basis but generally. This is hot off the schools disaster and maybe next time around he will show us something else, but so far we've seen nothing of values or ideas, and he's had plenty of time with no real obstacles. If he wins it will be because of what his opponents have done wrong, not what he has done right. At the moment his support seems to come from people who either know nothing about him, or people who support Labour and haven't been disenfranchised by prior episodes, both of whom use him as a canvas to project either their own or some third party's ideas - "what he means is..." - but this is a dangerous game for him and it won't hold up for very long.

More pertinently on the evidence offered so far I don't think he _can _offer anything beyond a mild, managerial differentiation from the government. It's extremely unlikely he's going to move to embracing left ideas or indeed anyone's ideology. So I think all things combined, Starmerism is probably doomed, though I wouldn't put any money on it. Then the dice will be rolled again. That's very unlikely to produce anything like Corbynism because that was only permitted by mistake, and although incompetence reigns, the lesson must surely have been learnt. It's most likely to be a new face on the same shit. This is all pretty much an establishment train on rails with just a few branching possibilities and none of it presents any engagement opportunities for the left. The only mildly more interesting question is whether successive failure and yet another failure of centrism prompts any introspection or forces any change. Hasn't worked so far.

I think the opportunities come from those failures, either some form of movement born out of a lack of representation and some of the shared experiences that are forthcoming - then no doubt we get to talk about immiseration again - or to a much lesser degree what happens when the establishment itself, particularly Labour, fails and has to be replaced with something else. Again there is nothing automatic here either though, not least because the public is increasingly right wing and the easiest capital to be made is probably by the right.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 17, 2020)

mauvais said:


> The difficulty with predicting anything is there are huge wildcards waiting to play out. The country is in a huge mess already but between recession, Covid consequences, Brexit and whatever else we're all going to feel it very much more acutely over time, and experience it more as permanence rather than a temporary emergency that can be tolerated for a time. I think it's going to be severe enough that it's unlikely to take a full election cycle to come to a head, personally, but who knows. At that point it may mostly depend how much people want rid of the Tories (who may present a new leader) in favour of the stereotypical idea of Labour - public services by way of being loose with money. That's distinct from what happened to Corbyn. Despite everything, as we see in current polling, I'm by no means sure it reflects conditions where Labour can automatically win.
> 
> On that note I don't think Starmer himself has what it takes to win, I don't mean on a left basis but generally. This is hot off the schools disaster and maybe next time around he will show us something else, but so far we've seen nothing of values or ideas, and he's had plenty of time with no real obstacles. If he wins it will be because of what his opponents have done wrong, not what he has done right. At the moment his support seems to come from people who either know nothing about him, or people who support Labour and haven't been disenfranchised by prior episodes, both of whom use him as a canvas to project either their own or some third party's ideas - "what he means is..." - but this is a dangerous game for him and it won't hold up for very long.
> 
> ...


The public is increasingly right wing? Some of your actual evidence pls. And not that dreary election result showing fewer than 30% of people voted tory


----------



## belboid (Aug 17, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> And yet when such a history was pointed out by some the response was that people were being unduly critical of the LP, that the LP was the best means to effect socialism, with a load of old clichés about revolutions thrown about.
> 
> If the history of the LP meant that such a sell out was inevitable then why were people (on here and wider) insisting that the LP was a party that could bring about democratic socialism? I mean sure there's no point in people just engaging in some sort of performative _mea culpa_, but some sort of joint up thinking would be good. And if Starmer is so shit, if it the course taken was (pretty much) inevitable then what next?


Lol, who said it would bring about democratic socialism? It was only ever a more useful option than sittting on the sidelines stroking beards and wagging fingers.


----------



## redsquirrel (Aug 17, 2020)

belboid said:


> Lol, who said it would bring about democratic socialism? It was only ever a more useful option than sittting on the sidelines stroking beards and wagging fingers.


Well okay you've got Mason, Olin Wright specifically identifying the Corbyn LP as (a major part) of a pathway to socialism, a position that some posters were in a level of agreement with (if the LP is not capable of bringing about democratic socialism then in what way is it a democratic socialist party?). Some (perhaps not you) not merely advocated the LP as a tactic but specifically identified the LP as the main/key vehicle for socialism with an accompanying dismissal of revolutionary socialist tactics.

EDIT: And your reply is actually a good example of the sort of behaviour I'm talking about - the implication that the choices where either joining the LP or "sittting on the sidelines stroking beards and wagging fingers", plenty of people were/are actively involved in class war without being members of the LP


----------



## Serge Forward (Aug 17, 2020)

I'd go further and say that the involvement of so many activists in "The Corbyn Road to Socialism" meant that a lot of class struggle organising and activities dwindled as many new Corbynites devoted most of their time to "party work" (or party in-struggles) rather than getting on with stuff like, for example, building a viable grassroots campaign against Universal Credit.


----------



## belboid (Aug 17, 2020)

No one gives a fuck about masons view any more.  And being a part of something by definition means that that something isn’t sufficient.  

And of course being outside the Labour Party doesn’t stop you taking part in class struggle.  The point is that being in it doesn’t stop you either.


----------



## belboid (Aug 17, 2020)

Serge Forward said:


> I'd go further and say that the involvement of so many activists in "The Corbyn Road to Socialism" meant that a lot of class struggle organising and activities dwindled as many new Corbynites devoted most of their time to "party work" (or party in-struggles) rather than getting on with stuff like, for example, building a viable grassroots campaign against Universal Credit.


LP groups did the vast majority of anti UC work round here, and coordinated city wide.  One or two monthly meetings and the odd vote didn’t really stop anyone doing anything else.  

It could do, of course.  But I didn’t particularly see it locally.


----------



## Serge Forward (Aug 17, 2020)

Round here, there were Labour Party people involved (mainly from Unite Community). Maybe if you're _in_ the LP you wouldn't see it. Speaking as someone outside the LP, the difference in organising at a local level was really noticeable. Interestingly, when the election was called, the local Unite Community told its members to halt any organising round Universal Credit because they needed all hands to the pumps for election campaigning! Ironically, I live in a part of the country where it would be unimaginable for Labour not to win their seats, no matter how shite.


----------



## belboid (Aug 17, 2020)

Serge Forward said:


> Round here, there were Labour Party people involved (mainly from Unite Community). Maybe if you're _in_ the LP you wouldn't see it. Speaking as someone outside the LP, the difference in organising at a local level was really noticeable. Interestingly, when the election was called, the local Unite Community told its members to halt any organising round Universal Credit because they needed all hands to the pumps for election campaigning! Ironically, I live in a part of the country where it would be unimaginable for Labour not to win their seats, no matter how shite.


And if you’re not in the LP you, similarly, don’t see what advantages there were to being involved there.  Like making connections with different groups that hadn’t been drawn into campaigning before.  BLM was overwhelmingly non LP led (great) but even there LP people had insights into and connections with areas that would otherwise have been missed.  

Maybe it’s different where you are, but either way, having a one size fits all approach, whether in or out, won’t work.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 26, 2020)

11.36pm hmmm....wonder if Creosote will do anything?


----------



## redsquirrel (Aug 26, 2020)

About Coyle's posts or about what Coyle is complaining about? 

(Either way Coyle can do one, the prick).


----------



## brogdale (Aug 26, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> About Coyle's posts or about what Coyle is complaining about?
> 
> (Either way Coyle can do one, the prick).


A pissed up prick, by the looks of it.
Just speculating about the degree of media pearl-clutching there'd have been had an MP supportive of the previous leadership posted such a tweet.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 26, 2020)

belboid said:


> And if you’re not in the LP you, similarly, don’t see what advantages there were to being involved there.  Like making connections with different groups that hadn’t been drawn into campaigning before.  BLM was overwhelmingly non LP led (great) but even there LP people had insights into and connections with areas that would otherwise have been missed.
> 
> Maybe it’s different where you are, but either way, having a one size fits all approach, whether in or out, won’t work.



I know a few people who reluctantly keep a foot in the LP tent. It does come in handy, particularly with anything involving the local authority. Knowing which councillors have which angles and are in which cabals can allow you to apply leverage in constructive ways.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 26, 2020)

brogdale said:


> 11.36pm hmmm....wonder if Creosote will do anything?
> 
> View attachment 227895



isn’t rees mogg really skinny?

Also, ‘Local people’ Lolz


----------



## ska invita (Aug 26, 2020)

Luckily Corbyn was smashed so we can have that real class war now with full participation


----------



## brogdale (Aug 26, 2020)

They're really missing Jez, aren't they?


----------



## co-op (Aug 26, 2020)

brogdale said:


> They're really missing Jez, aren't they?
> 
> View attachment 227920



This is such bollocks, Coyle slagged Corbyn off at every opportunity possible that I noticed.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 26, 2020)

brogdale said:


> They're really missing Jez, aren't they?
> 
> View attachment 227920



They probably are but Coyle is a right wing cunt so I doubt he is.  

But the main thing here is that you’ve got to be blind not to see the class hatred and sneering that led to that tweet . A temporary slip of the veil no doubt, but instructive none the less.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 26, 2020)

co-op said:


> This is such bollocks, Coyle slagged Corbyn off at every opportunity possible that I noticed.


Of course it is; Coyle is a viscous right-wing cunt of the first order.


----------



## William of Walworth (Aug 27, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Of course it is; Coyle is a viscous right-wing cunt of the first order.



Could have done with a much better Labour person than him kicking Simon Hughes out of Parliament!!


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 27, 2020)

William of Walworth said:


> Could have done with a much better Labour person than him kicking Simon Hughes out of Parliament!!


That's pretty much the only thing that can be said to be in his favour


----------



## brogdale (Aug 28, 2020)

Nicely done


----------



## pseudonarcissus (Sep 14, 2020)




----------



## TopCat (Sep 19, 2020)

A new leadership. This slogan will have a lot of emphasis apparently.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Sep 19, 2020)

TopCat said:


> A new leadership. This slogan will have a lot of emphasis apparently.


Well I'm off out canvassing on the back of that bastard.

It's wonderful. Inspired.

Which bit will be emphasized though?

A new leader (shouts) SHIP! does it for me


----------



## Lord Camomile (Sep 19, 2020)

"Well, it's _*a*_ new leadership..."


----------



## Chilli.s (Sep 19, 2020)

Keir who?


----------



## chilango (Sep 19, 2020)

Chilli.s said:


> Keir who?



That posh bloke off the telly.


----------



## Chilli.s (Sep 19, 2020)

Oops my bad, thought he was a tory.


----------



## teqniq (Sep 19, 2020)

I fear it is an easy mistake to make.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 19, 2020)

teqniq said:


> I fear it is an easy mistake to make.


Him being a Sir and having millions plus the loathing of working class people.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 19, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Him being a Sir and having millions plus the loathing of working class people.


No different from the golden shower's sir ed davey


----------



## Steel Icarus (Sep 19, 2020)

_A New Leadership_

Someone was paid to come with that. Meetings have been had about it.
Come friendly bombs etc


----------



## SpookyFrank (Sep 19, 2020)

TopCat said:


> A new leadership. This slogan will have a lot of emphasis apparently.



Yes Labour are now led by (checks notes) the man responsible for the single least popular policy of the previous leadership. Real selling point that.


----------



## two sheds (Sep 19, 2020)

Under new management

Does that replace For the many, not the few?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Sep 19, 2020)

two sheds said:


> Under new management
> 
> Does that replace For the many, not the few?



This year's 'quiet bat people' more like. 

Or perhaps it's the new 'real leadership, aaargh'.


----------



## teqniq (Sep 19, 2020)

What exactly are they thinking of here?











						Labour Party: Starmer aims to build trust with 'new leadership' slogan
					

Sir Keir Starmer has a new message - but will it help Labour win back votes where the party needs them?



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## SpookyFrank (Sep 19, 2020)

I suppose Starmer's original slogan idea of 'Kneel, peasants!' was ruled out in the early stages of the committee process as being slightly too content-heavy.


----------



## two sheds (Sep 19, 2020)

He's got the BBC onside at least, they've not accused him of antisemitism yet.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Sep 19, 2020)

Since they've been in opposition, they've had Milliband, Corbyn, and now Starmer*; a _third _leadership?




*sorry Harriet, but your two spots as acting leader ruin my otherwise hilarious gag, so your tenure is being swept under the rug for comedic convenience.


----------



## SlideshowBob (Sep 19, 2020)

Lord Camomile said:


> Since they've been in opposition, they've had Milliband, Corbyn, and now Starmer*; a _third _leadership?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Rather ironically the same number of leaders the Tories have had in the same period...


----------



## BlanketAddict (Sep 19, 2020)

David Milliband still waiting for the call. Must think his phone's broke.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Sep 19, 2020)

BlanketAddict said:


> David Milliband still waiting for the call. Must think his phone's broke.



He doesn't need a phone he's got Thunderbird 5.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Sep 19, 2020)

Dammit, it was right there.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 19, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> He doesn't need a phone he's got Thunderbird 5.


_Virgil, the pod..._


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Sep 20, 2020)




----------



## Shellee (Sep 20, 2020)

Starmer just said that we've left the EU so the Leave/Remain argument is over. Bollocks it is. Time's up.


----------



## Raheem (Sep 20, 2020)

Jeff Robinson said:


>



I'd have gone for 

Starmer, Starmer, Starmer, Starmer, Starmer chameleon.
You change from beige
To brownish grey.

But I'm also too lazy.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Sep 20, 2020)

Shellee said:


> Starmer just said that we've left the EU so the Leave/Remain argument is over. Bollocks it is. Time's up.


How do you intend to remain in the EU exactly?


----------



## mauvais (Sep 20, 2020)

Raheem said:


> I'd have gone for
> 
> Starmer, Starmer, Starmer, Starmer, Starmer chameleon.
> You change from beige
> ...





mauvais said:


> Starmer Starmer Starmer Starmer Starmer Keir-meleon
> He has no views he cannot loo-ooh-ooh-oose
> Centrism is easy you just do what the Tories do
> In red not blue, in red not blu-ooh-ooh-ooh


Still a good fit.


----------



## Raheem (Sep 20, 2020)

Didn't see that. I'll give you 10% if mine is a hit.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 20, 2020)

S☼I said:


> _A New Leadership_


Something to look forward to....


----------



## Raheem (Sep 20, 2020)

S☼I said:


> How do you intend to remain in the EU exactly?


Tbf, they might be posting from NI.


----------



## two sheds (Sep 20, 2020)

Shellee said:


> Starmer just said that we've left the EU so the Leave/Remain argument is over. Bollocks it is. Time's up.



A brave post on here


----------



## Shellee (Sep 20, 2020)

S☼I said:


> How do you intend to remain in the EU exactly?



 Sabotage, block and protest everything the Brexiteers try to achieve, keep the divisions going, the arguments bitter, and make sure the Brexiteers don't wriggle out of the blame, use the misery and destitution to come to spearhead the campaign to Rejoin.


----------



## two sheds (Sep 20, 2020)

Even braver


----------



## Raheem (Sep 20, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Something to look forward to....


Presumably there will be a target date for that pledge.


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 20, 2020)

teqniq said:


> What exactly are they thinking of here?


Kier Starmer, listening to the stones on his ipod as he taps out a rhythm on the dash with his gloved left hand.


----------



## JimW (Sep 20, 2020)

Shellee said:


> Sabotage, block and protest everything the Brexiteers try to achieve, keep the divisions going, the arguments bitter, and make sure the Brexiteers don't wriggle out of the blame, use the misery and destitution to come to spearhead the campaign to Rejoin.


You could hand-bend all the bananas.


----------



## Raheem (Sep 20, 2020)

JimW said:


> You could hand-bend all the bananas.


Not everyone is qualified for that, though. You need a certain number of degrees.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Sep 20, 2020)

teqniq said:


> What exactly are they thinking of here?
> 
> View attachment 230910
> 
> ...



Different from Brown and Blair, whose approach involved being prime minister at some point.


----------



## Shellee (Sep 20, 2020)

Raheem said:


> Not everyone is qualified for that, though. You need a certain number of degrees.



Three. Then karaoke after.


----------



## Streathamite (Sep 20, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> I suppose Starmer's original slogan idea of 'Kneel, peasants!' was ruled out in the early stages of the committee process as being slightly too content-heavy.


tbf, he's one of the very few Labour leaders with solid working class roots. And his legal specialism is human rights, not some evil corporate wank like Blair's was. 
He's no socialist but there have been worse.


----------



## Streathamite (Sep 20, 2020)

Shellee said:


> Sabotage, block and protest everything the Brexiteers try to achieve, keep the divisions going, the arguments bitter, and make sure the Brexiteers don't wriggle out of the blame, use the misery and destitution to come to spearhead the campaign to Rejoin.


No way - and I voted Remain, and I am convinced it is the stupidest decision we have ever made.
The (voting) public are sick to tears and death of the endless pantomime, which is why they emphatically voted Johnson in - he promised to 'get Brexit done'.
A far smarter gambit is to sit back, let Brexit go tits up (as it will), and let people realise how completely the Eurosceptic Tories have shafted them.
Then - and only once the consequences of that have fully sunk home - can you gently and mildly raise the possibility that the voters may care to reconsider things.


----------



## inva (Sep 20, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> No way - and I voted Remain, and I am convinced it is the stupidest decision we have ever made.


Good to see remainers coming to their senses.


----------



## Shellee (Sep 20, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> No way - and I voted Remain, and I am convinced it is the stupidest decision we have ever made.
> The (voting) public are sick to tears and death of the endless pantomime, which is why they emphatically voted Johnson in - he promised to 'get Brexit done'.
> A far smarter gambit is to sit back, let Brexit go tits up (as it will), and let people realise how completely the Eurosceptic Tories have shafted them.
> Then - and only once the consequences of that have fully sunk home - can you gently and mildly raise the possib ility that the voters may care to reconsider things



 Stupidest decision THEY ever made, there is no "we".


----------



## Streathamite (Sep 20, 2020)

Shellee said:


> Stupidest decision THEY ever made, there is no "we".


There *is* a 'we', because the 'we' in question is the British people. I am - unavoidably - a natural part of that, and I presume you are too.
Of the many mistakes Remainers made with their campaign, on of the very worst was to vilify all Leave voters, and paint them as ignorant, thick, drunken geriatric racists. Who the hell wants to vote for people who insult them?
It played right into the hands of the politics of division which the Right specialise in (and do so pretty effectively, tbh).
We badly need to move on from that  bitterness and division.
Whether you like it or not, 17.6 million people voted for Brexit, they are ordinary people just like you and me, and if your opinions and feelings deserve to be respected, then so do theirs.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Sep 20, 2020)

Raheem said:


> I'd have gone for
> 
> Starmer, Starmer, Starmer, Starmer, Starmer chameleon.
> You change from beige
> ...



they did that one too


----------



## Streathamite (Sep 20, 2020)

mauvais said:


> Still a good fit.


I'm embarrased to admit, but those two posts got me sinjging the originals out loud.
God, being an 80s teenager gave me some truly crap music tastes


----------



## brogdale (Sep 23, 2020)

Will be interesting to see how many Labour loyalist activists remain in the party when door-to-door/street stall campaigning resumes post-pandemic. Starmer's 'under new management' slash & burn 'detoxification' PR certainly seems privileged over carrying the activist base.


----------



## NoXion (Sep 23, 2020)

So if they lose the next election under Starmer's leadership, will they "deserve" that loss?

Because I predict they will lose. Starmer's attempts at "grown-up" politics (_hack-spit_) appeals to hardly anyone who isn't an unbearable Centrist Dad.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 23, 2020)

Guardian are right up his arse at the moment.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 23, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Will be interesting to see how many Labour loyalist activists remain in the party when door-to-door/street stall campaigning resumes post-pandemic. Starmer's 'under new management' slash & burn 'detoxification' PR certainly seems privileged over carrying the activist base.
> 
> View attachment 231443



You can see the logic of what theyre doing and who the message is meant to 'appeal' to, but it reads like a big Fuck You to grassroots campaigners for Corbyn, especially as the reason Labour "didnt deserve to win" was the fucked brexit position Starmer oversaw, and the internal sabotage by Labours own vanguard who remain in position


----------



## two sheds (Sep 23, 2020)

Did he actually mention any policies? I didn't see any in the (short) article I saw.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 23, 2020)

two sheds said:


> Did he actually mention any policies? I didn't see any in the (short) article I saw.


----------



## two sheds (Sep 23, 2020)

I mentioned it once but I think I got away with it


----------



## TopCat (Sep 23, 2020)

His speech to camera style was very weird. Like it was his last minute in the mirror practice.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 23, 2020)

TopCat said:


> His speech to camera style was very weird. Like it was his last minute in the mirror practice.


i think it was a zoom-type thing? online conference isnt it?


----------



## TopCat (Sep 23, 2020)

ska invita said:


> i think it was a zoom-type thing? online conference isnt it?


Oh yes I know. It was the pauses for applause (which would never come) that caught my attention.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 23, 2020)

ska invita said:


> You can see the logic of what theyre doing and who the message is meant to 'appeal' to, but it reads like a big Fuck You to grassroots campaigners for Corbyn, especially as the reason Labour "didnt deserve to win" was the fucked brexit position Starmer oversaw, and the internal sabotage by Labours own vanguard who remain in position


In those CLPs with useless/moribund right wing executives that were taken over post 2015 by (Labour) left activists there has to be a real risk that Starmer's "fuck you" will alienate enough of those who actually campaign to undermine their fabled, post-Momentum ground game.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 23, 2020)

FFS


----------



## Shellee (Sep 23, 2020)

Also a big Fuck You to the Remainers. 

Starmer was a Remainer and advocated a second referendum but now he's telling us the debate is over and would whip his MPs to vote for a Brexit deal? He's putting his personal political ambition above what he know is right for his country and is a turncoat and a traitor. 

He may hope to win back the Brexiter's who voted for Johnson because they wanted to win over Brexit so badly they were prepared to land us with an immoral, lying, snake oil salesman as PM. But he will lose Labours left-wing supporters and Remainers.

I wouldn't vote for any party that isn't campaigning to Rejoin. (not going to give me many options at the moment )

I've voted Labour all my life, but I doubt if I ever will again.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Sep 23, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Will be interesting to see how many Labour loyalist activists remain in the party when door-to-door/street stall campaigning resumes post-pandemic. Starmer's 'under new management' slash & burn 'detoxification' PR certainly seems privileged over carrying the activist base.
> 
> View attachment 231443



Starmer said: "when you lose an election in a democracy, you deserve to lose. You don't look at the electorate and ask them 'what were you thinking?', you look at yourself and ask, 'what were we doing?'" As if he didn't do the former for years re the Brexit referendum.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 23, 2020)

How to tell the difference between Keir Starmer and a Tory
					

PATRIOTISM, family, security: Starmer’s version of Labour sounds well Tory. Here’s how to spot the difference.




					www.thedailymash.co.uk


----------



## belboid (Sep 23, 2020)

Shellee said:


> Also a big Fuck You to the Remainers.
> 
> Starmer was a Remainer and advocated a second referendum but now he's telling us the debate is over and would whip his MPs to vote for a Brexit deal? He's putting his personal political ambition above what he know is right for his country and is a turncoat and a traitor.
> 
> ...


It was the idiots like you in Parliament that got us this shit deal and this shit government.  Thanks a fucking bunch.


----------



## Streathamite (Sep 23, 2020)

Shellee said:


> Also a big Fuck You to the Remainers.
> 
> Starmer was a Remainer and advocated a second referendum but now he's telling us the debate is over and would whip his MPs to vote for a Brexit deal? He's putting his personal political ambition above what he know is right for his country and is a turncoat and a traitor.
> 
> ...


Look; we lost. 17 million people voted to Leave, and we nhave to accept they knew their own minds, and knew why they voted that way.
If Brexit turns into a huge disaster (I think it will), and public opinion turns massively again - _then_ there is a point to a campaign to rejoin. But _only_ then.
Otherwise, we have to live with it and make the best of it.


----------



## Streathamite (Sep 23, 2020)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Starmer said: "when you lose an election in a democracy, you deserve to lose. You don't look at the electorate and ask them 'what were you thinking?', you look at yourself and ask, 'what were we doing?'" As if he didn't do the former for years re the Brexit referendum.


Absolutely


----------



## chilango (Sep 23, 2020)

I'm not voting for this Starmer led Labour Party regardless of what he said, says and may say in the future about fucking Brexit.


----------



## JimW (Sep 23, 2020)

So psycho remainers are willing to pay all the costs of a Tory Brexit then rejoin the fucking shitehawk EU. Talk about the worst of all possible worlds.


----------



## Streathamite (Sep 23, 2020)

JimW said:


> So psycho remainers are willing to pay all the costs of a Tory Brexit then rejoin the fucking shitehawk EU. Talk about the worst of all possible worlds.


You might as well take this one on the chin - once we all realise the full cost and consequences of Brexit, the EU won't seem nearly as 'shitehawk' after al.
I get it; as a Socialist, that 100% capitalist construct, the EU is very difficult to appreciate, let alone love.
But membership was so overwhelmingly to Britain's advantage, that Brexit - especially when its' form is determined by Tories - is _crazy_


----------



## two sheds (Sep 23, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> You might as well take this one on the chin - once we all realise the full cost and consequences of Brexit, the EU won't seem nearly as 'shitehawk' after al.
> I get it; as a aSocialist, that 100% capitalist construct, the EU is very difficult to appreciate, let alone love.
> But membership was so overwhelmingly to Britain's advantage, that Brexit - especially when its' form is determined by Tories - is _crazy_



Indeed, we should think positive. After Johnson has finished our economy will be the size of Sicily's, we won't have to pay into the common fund, and will be eligible for shitloads of yearly cash. 

I'm anyway not sure the EU would want us back, though.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Sep 23, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> You might as well take this one on the chin - once we all realise the full cost and consequences of Brexit, the EU won't seem nearly as 'shitehawk' after al.
> I get it; as a aSocialist, that 100% capitalist construct, the EU is very difficult to appreciate, let alone love.
> But membership was so overwhelmingly to Britain's advantage, that Brexit - especially when its' form is determined by Tories - is _crazy_



The narrative that all our post-brexit woes are being caused by the EU is already being primed and readied. This is what our masters are doing instead of actually sorting anything out so that there's not actually that much woe in the first place.

I can only assume that public and media alike will eat up this bold new 'it's all the EU's fault' messaging with a big fucking spoon.


----------



## Streathamite (Sep 23, 2020)

two sheds said:


> I'm anyway not sure the EU would want us back, though.


Were I them - I wsouldn't. Not worth the fucking aggro


----------



## Streathamite (Sep 23, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> The narrative that all our post-brexit woes are being caused by the EU is already being primed and readied. This is what our masters are doing instead of actually sorting anything out so that there's not actually that much woe in the first place.
> 
> I can only assume that public and media alike will eat up this bold new 'it's all the EU's fault' messaging with a big fucking spoon.


Yep to all this, and I nurse the forlorn hope that it will only last so long as a gambit before sufficient numbers of the public lose patience. 
I'm not referring to the hardcore brexiteers, they're too far gone demented. But they are a minority part of that 17 million


----------



## SpookyFrank (Sep 23, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> Yep to all this, and I nurse the forlorn hope that it will only last so long as a gambit before sufficient numbers of the public lose patience.
> I'm not referring to the hardcore brexiteers, they're too far gone demented. But they are a minority part of that 17 million



TBH I'd expect the hardcore gammons to be the very first to lose their shit as soon as their local offie runs out of Stella. Not like patiently explaining to them that this is what they wanted will do any good either.


----------



## Streathamite (Sep 23, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> TBH I'd expect the hardcore gammons to be the very first to lose their shit as soon as their local offie runs out of Stella. Not like patiently explaining to them that this is what they wanted will do any good either.


I must admit, that ectremely likely spectacle will afford me some grim, bleak amusement. In times like these, you have to grab what levity you can


----------



## Shellee (Sep 23, 2020)

two sheds said:


> Indeed, we should think positive. After Johnson has finished our economy will be the size of Sicily's, we won't have to pay into the common fund, and will be eligible for shitloads of yearly cash.
> 
> I'm anyway not sure the EU would want us back, though.



Why would they want a xenophobic country that thinks its OK to betray it's allies and and not honour it's commitments and promises?

GB will have to beg and grovel to get back in but by then post Brexit disaster and misery will be so bad even the most hardened Brexiters will be keen to do just that. And have to accept conditions far worse than the ones they threw away.. We'll never have it that good again and the blame for that lies with every individual person who voted leave.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Sep 23, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> his legal specialism is human rights


Worked wonders for Alfie Meadows didn't it?


----------



## Streathamite (Sep 23, 2020)

Count Cuckula said:


> Worked wonders for Alfie Meadows didn't it?


It certainly didn't, and I'm equally certainly no cheerleader for Starmer. If I cared enough about Labour, I would hate him being leader.
However, there are worse men in wigs and gowns


----------



## Streathamite (Sep 23, 2020)

Shellee said:


> We'll never have it that good again and the blame for that lies with every individual person who voted leave.


A quick human psychology heads up: you do *not* win people round to your p;oint of view by endlessly demonising, insulting and vilifying people who started out with a different opinion to yours. 
Out of the many mistakes made by remain supporters four years ago, that was just about the worst


----------



## two sheds (Sep 23, 2020)

also down to tory voters rather than leave voters. Whatever else would have happened, we'd not have had the fundamentalist brexit if there had been a labour government. Corbyn and labour would have gone for a humane trade deal and actually tried to negotiate honestly. And with covid among other things they would have put money into the NHS rather than privatized mates of Gove and Cummings, and there'd have been none of the turd mentality that johnson relied on at the start.


----------



## Streathamite (Sep 23, 2020)

two sheds said:


> also down to tory voters rather than leave voters. Whatever else would have happened, we'd not have had the fundamentalist brexit if there had been a labour government. Corbyn and labour would have gone for a humane trade deal and actually tried to negotiate honestly. And with covid among other things they would have put money into the NHS rather than privatized mates of Gove and Cummings, and there'd have been none of the turd mentality that johnson relied on at the start.


absolutely and undeniably true


----------



## brogdale (Sep 23, 2020)

Sirkir trying a bit too hard with the blue wall?


----------



## mauvais (Sep 23, 2020)

Sacked some PPS today because errr they disagreed with giving the military immunity from prosecution.



I do think _someone_ should be granted immunity for shooting non-combatants but I have a more selective view as to who.


----------



## Badgers (Sep 24, 2020)




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## 19force8 (Sep 24, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> And his legal specialism is human rights


That hasn't aged well.

But then his real passion was always for banging up protestors, statue topplers and rioters.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Sep 24, 2020)

Law and order. Unless it's for war crimes.


----------



## Idris2002 (Sep 24, 2020)

This fucking guy.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 24, 2020)

im genuinely shocked
in 2020 too


----------



## The Pale King (Sep 24, 2020)

It would have been very easy for Starmer to oppose this, and to do so cogently and forcefully. That he won't even stick up for basic rule of law norms is a crystal clear message about where he is going - straight after the Tories just a step or two behind. Utterly shameful.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Sep 24, 2020)

Back to the good ol' imperialism, militarism and human rights violations days of the 'war on terror' era Labour Party.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 24, 2020)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Back to the good ol' imperialism, militarism and human rights violations days of the 'war on terror' era Labour Party.



You still coughing up the subs and attending your local CLP Jeff?


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Sep 24, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> You still coughing up the subs and attending your local CLP Jeff?



nope.


----------



## scifisam (Sep 25, 2020)

JimW said:


> So psycho remainers are willing to pay all the costs of a Tory Brexit then rejoin the fucking shitehawk EU. Talk about the worst of all possible worlds.



Yeah, when we're talking about the kind of language that divides people, that is a good example.

Rejoining the EU is not going to happen for many years, if ever, so apart from trolls, it's not worth arguing about. Let's also argue about joining the United Federation of Planets!

But we will all have to pay the costs of a Tory Brexit because a Tory Brexit was what was voted for. Shit happens, and we all have to deal with it - arguing about whether the shit should be there isn't going to make it go away. 

We might be better off not still fucking calling each other psycho remoaners.


----------



## JimW (Sep 25, 2020)

scifisam said:


> Yeah, when we're talking about the kind of language that divides people, that is a good example.
> 
> Rejoining the EU is not going to happen for many years, if ever, so apart from trolls, it's not worth arguing about. Let's also argue about joining the United Federation of Planets!
> 
> ...


Remainers not remoaners. The psycho ones are the ones who still want to join again after all this is over. Might help if we read what each other wrote too.


----------



## scifisam (Sep 25, 2020)

JimW said:


> Remainers not remoaners. The psycho ones are the ones who still want to join again after all this is over. Might help if we read what each other wrote too.



True, you got me there, though I'm pretty sure it's because people still keep using the term remoaners when anyone says anything at all negative about Brexit. And I don't think adding psycho helps anyone except maybe feeding trolls. 

I'm still pissed off that people voted for a Tory Brexit (under a Labour govt, I might have voted leave too, or at least would have very seriously considered it), but that's what we have to fucking deal with.


----------



## two sheds (Sep 25, 2020)

We'll only know if remainers are psycho remainers when we see what state the UK is in at that point. If we're totally aligned to the US by that time - with the current tories I wouldn't put it past them - then the EU might look a lot more attractive. However, besides the EU not wanting us back, I'd imagine that any contracts we sign with (particularly) the US would have punitive penalties for breaking them by (for example) rejoining the EU.


----------



## JimW (Sep 25, 2020)

scifisam said:


> True, you got me there, though I'm pretty sure it's because people still keep using the term remoaners when anyone says anything at all negative about Brexit. And I don't think adding psycho helps anyone except maybe feeding trolls.
> 
> I'm still pissed off that people voted for a Tory Brexit (under a Labour govt, I might have voted leave too, or at least would have very seriously considered it), but that's what we have to fucking deal with.


Not a great word I grant you,but after all we've learned about the nature of the EU in this painful process, anyone keen to get back in is severely mistaken or a wrong'un and must confess I was in part responding to a couple of pages of comments from the latter.


----------



## mauvais (Sep 25, 2020)

JimW said:


> Remainers not remoaners. The psycho ones are the ones who still want to join again after all this is over. Might help if we read what each other wrote too.


When will it be over?


----------



## two sheds (Sep 25, 2020)

JimW said:


> Not a great word I grant you,but after all we've learned about the nature of the EU in this painful process, anyone keen to get back in is severely mistaken or a wrong'un and must confess I was in part responding to a couple of pages of comments from the latter.



Well yes but we've learned a bit about the tory government, too. It's just as true that anyone keen on the tory Brexit is severely mistaken or a wrong'un as well.


----------



## mauvais (Sep 25, 2020)

Good ideas appear to me to be:

(a) give up and rejoin the EU, or

(b) hold on tight and fully lean into an accelerated repositioning of the British or possibly English state which really began with the end of empire but is far from concluded, undergoing a massive, crisis-induced public transformation of national identity where we are forced to confront what we are rather than were, meaningfully adapt to that and whatever our new economic and political conditions turn out to be, and eventually come out the other side a bit like Germany after WWII. Effectively secede from our own history through a big old highly unpleasant national cognitive behavioural therapy. Or, you know, revolution.

Not a lot in between, IMO, other than suffering for no reason.

One of those is probably better than the other but I'm not particularly sure I want to be here while it happens. And it doesn't make a very good manifesto.


----------



## MrSki (Sep 26, 2020)

Not gone down well on gogglebox.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 26, 2020)

When Rafael Bher or whatever he is called gives him praise you know he is a scab tory.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Sep 26, 2020)

I bumped into a Labour friend in town today (socially distanced bump, of course) who said that some lefties in the local party had left, but this was outweighed by new members joining. Is this Starmer attracting more Blairite support, for want of a better word, and getting more electable? Or are lefty types still pondering a decision to leave?


----------



## brogdale (Sep 26, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> I bumped into a Labour friend in town today (socially distanced bump, of course) who said that some lefties in the local party had left, but this was outweighed by new members joining. Is this Starmer attracting more Blairite support, for want of a better word, and getting more electable? Or are lefty types still pondering a decision to leave?


Those "new" members will most likely be the nasty old right-wingers who bailed when the party elected a socialist leader; they'll do fuck all campaigning.


----------



## Streathamite (Sep 26, 2020)

JimW said:


> Not a great word I grant you,but after all we've learned about the nature of the EU in this painful process, anyone keen to get back in is severely mistaken or a wrong'un


Sorry, but what do you mean by this?
To me, it's the antics of the British government and the Tory brexiteers that are almost entirely at fault - their endless variations of cakeism, and fantasyland politics. Their demanding full benefits of the club they/we are leaving.
To my eyes, it seems the EU have been logical and consistent, and maintained an entirely logical position, and they've conducted their side of things  in a manner which any reasonable-minded person could expect. They've acted throughout to protect the SM, the CU, their members' interests and the GFA. The same GFA we are legally-binding signatories to.
After all, it's not the EU which is rushing through a bill to enable them to break international law.


----------



## Streathamite (Sep 26, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Those "new" members will most likely be the nasty old right-wingers who bailed when the party elected a socialist leader; they'll do fuck all campaigning.


absolutely correct.


----------



## JimW (Sep 26, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> Sorry, but what do you mean by this?
> To me, it's the antics of the British government and the Tory brexiteers that are almost entirely at fault - their endless variations of cakeism, and fantasyland politics. Their demanding full benefits of the club they/we are leaving.
> To my eyes, it seems the EU have been logical and consistent, and maintained an entirely logical position, and they've conducted their side of things  in a manner which any reasonable-minded person could expect. They've acted throughout to protect the SM, the CU, their members' interests and the GFA. The same GFA we are legally-binding signatories to.
> After all, it's not the EU which is rushing through a bill to enable them to break international law.


I mean that the EU is one of the institutions of late capitalism normalising technocracy rather than democracy and pushing the market further into previous unopened areas, all the more dangerous even than domestic buffoons because it presents a benign face (quite likely most of its staff have benign intentions) and is not susceptible to change except through extremes like leaving it altogether.


----------



## Streathamite (Sep 26, 2020)

JimW said:


> I mean that the EU is one of the institutions of late capitalism normalising technocracy rather than democracy and pushing the market further into previous unopened areas, all the more dangerous even than domestic buffoons because it presents a benign face (quite likely most of its staff have benign intentions) and is not susceptible to change except through extremes like leaving it altogether.


Agreed, but:
1) we knew all that about the EU from way back, decades in fact. It's hardly come out as as result of the Brexit process - it was there in Maastricht.
2) the EU is the consequence and by-product of capitalism, not the other way round. Leaving the EU will not move us one inch furhter towards socialism - quite the opposite, given the current lot in charge in the UK. Equally, the general demise of the EU will not hasten the advent of socialism on a global basis - again, quite the opposite
3) Actually, the EU is showing signs of progressive reform, albeit that these have been forced on it by the virus
4) Thanks to the social chapter, anti-market abuse laws and other things, the EU has done more in my lifetime to advance, uphold and defend workers rights, consumer protection and environemntal protection, and also to curb capitalists' abuse and excesses, than any British government of my lifetime. I grant you, that bar is low, but.....
I am *not* an uncritical EU junkie. It is a 100% capitalist, and indeed neoliberal construct whose founding premise was 'peace through capitalism'. As such, in the long term it can never be part of any solution, it can only be the problem.

However, in the short term pragmatism has its' virtues. Which is why Brexit is sheer idiocy. As people are about to find out, rather painfully


----------



## JimW (Sep 26, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> Thanks to the social chapter, anti-market abuse laws and other things, the EU has done more in my lifetime to advance, uphold and defend workers rights, consumer protection and environemntal protection, and also to curb capitalists' abuse and excesses, than any British government of my lifetime. I grant you, that bar izs low, but.....


Just on this point, I think in many ways this was the EU serving its purpose to help undermine and subsume the institutions the working class built for itself as part of its aim to better manage capitalism with the final outcome that our protections are something that drop on high not something we fight for and defend ourselves. 
Obviously capital has competing wings, short termers and the more "reasonable", but the reasonable ones will still shaft us in the end and don't blink at things like the deal with Turkey or the camps in Libya, or the fiscal medicine for Greece. And all the while they normalise a warped internationalism of trade and interests rather than solidarity and the idea that the world is now too complex to be left up to ordinary voters - which is true because that's how they're making it but I really think we should do whatever we can to resist that happening. They'll "reform" while the world burns because of the resource demands of the economics that is the centre of their existence.


----------



## Streathamite (Sep 26, 2020)

JimW said:


> Just on this point, I think in many ways this was the EU serving its purpose to help undermine and subsume the institutions the working class built for itself as part of its aim to better manage capitalism with the final outcome that our protections are something that drop on high not something we fight for and defend ourselves.
> Obviously capital has competing wings, short termers and the more "reasonable", but the reasonable ones will still shaft us in the end and don't blink at things like the deal with Turkey or the camps in Libya, or the fiscal medicine for Greece. And all the while they normalise a warped internationalism of trade and interests rather than solidarity and the idea that the world is now too complex to be left up to ordinary voters - which is true because that's how they're making it but I really think we should do whatever we can to resist that happening. They'll "reform" while the world burns because of the resource demands of the economics that is the centre of their existence.


Don't disagree with any of that. All very fair points.


----------



## cantsin (Sep 26, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> I bumped into a Labour friend in town today (socially distanced bump, of course) who said that some lefties in the local party had left, but this was outweighed by new members joining. Is this Starmer attracting more Blairite support, for want of a better word, and getting more electable? Or are lefty types still pondering a decision to leave?



word is that membership numbers are in steep decline - but suspect the  left exodus won't happen until the NEC elections results are out, and if the left slate wins, a lot more of us might stay on / stay in.

But no way would I be pounding the pavement for this shower in the Council Elections next year, regardless


----------



## Streathamite (Sep 26, 2020)

cantsin said:


> word is that membership numbers are in steep decline - but suspect the  left exodus won't happen until the NEC elections results are out, and if the left slate wins, a lot more of us might stay on / stay in.
> 
> But no way would I be pounding the pavement for this shower in the Council Elections next year, regardless



Likewise. i was briefly tempted to rejoin, when my old mentor became leader - and then I remebered why I left this party in the first place. 
The same reason holds true today.


----------



## two sheds (Sep 26, 2020)

Ooh he's got 10 pledges and he's _signed _them  

Just needs to carve them in stone now


----------



## redsquirrel (Sep 26, 2020)

So we should no longer be voting for Labour councillors now?


----------



## Wilf (Sep 26, 2020)

He's less florid than Kinnock, less twinkly than John Smith, less cunty than Blair, less socialist than Corbyn. He's just _less_.  

Vote Void!


----------



## cantsin (Sep 26, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> So we should no longer be voting for Labour councillors now?



personally, cldn't give a monkeys - it felt like across the UK, 2015-19, the % of wrong un's who were Labour councillors was comparable to the PLP, ie : around 90 %, minus the Leftwing leadership  presence that the PLP had for 5 yrs, (eg : the entrenched, corrupt, revolving door property devpt consultant New Lab divs in Lambeth , Southwark etc )


----------



## brogdale (Sep 26, 2020)

Wilf said:


> He's less florid than Kinnock, less twinkly than John Smith, less cunty than Blair, less socialist than Corbyn. He's just _less_.
> 
> Vote Void!


Focus-group man.


----------



## Wilf (Sep 26, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Focus-group man.


Ford-Focus Group man.


----------



## Wilf (Sep 26, 2020)

That's the thing, if I was asked to think about Keir Starmer's car in a focus group, I'd immediately say neat and tidy. Maybe a coffee cup in a holder with the lid _very _secure, after an emergency meeting where he went and stopped terrorism, but otherwise everything in its place. Coldplay on as well.


----------



## belboid (Sep 26, 2020)

Wilf said:


> Coldplay on as well.


tbf, his musical taste doesn't appear to be _awful _- http://camdennewjournal.com/article...9xkd6TnZt_8B-Akdf_Qt1rt_yNfBOTYoW__7wVGfYDbfA


----------



## Chilli.s (Sep 26, 2020)

Much as he seems a pail blue shade to my fiercely red, the country still needs a realistic second choice when it comes to voting. So if it's gotta be a centrist dad party then I guess he's the man for the job.


----------



## Knotted (Sep 26, 2020)

belboid said:


> tbf, his musical taste doesn't appear to be _awful _- http://camdennewjournal.com/article...9xkd6TnZt_8B-Akdf_Qt1rt_yNfBOTYoW__7wVGfYDbfA



Except it looks like it has been selected by a committee for its messaging.


----------



## Wilf (Sep 26, 2020)

Knotted said:


> Except it looks like it has been selected by a committee for its messaging.


... and much as I like the ode to joy, I'd have kept well away from it circa September 2019.


----------



## teqniq (Sep 26, 2020)




----------



## Shechemite (Sep 26, 2020)

Tanking in the polls


----------



## Wilf (Sep 27, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Tanking in the polls



I'm struggling to see that as anything done by Labour/Starmer, more a case of being handed a lead by johnson.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Sep 27, 2020)

Wilf said:


> I'm struggling to see that as anything done by Labour/Starmer, more a case of being handed a lead by johnson.



a decent leader would be 20 points ahead in these circumstances...


----------



## two sheds (Sep 27, 2020)

Tory rags have coincidentally been giving Johnson some criticism. No doubt they'll swing behind him again when the time comes.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 27, 2020)

Wilf said:


> I'm struggling to see that as anything done by Labour/Starmer, more a case of being handed a lead by johnson.



Yes. I’m not sure a narrow lead for Labour - given the absolute state of the Government - is a cause for dancing in the street.

The abject Tory response to the pandemic, the near million jobs lost, the coming end of furlough, the test and trace farce etc etc surely create the conditions for a 20 point Labour lead? Put another way, where would Starmer and co be if the government was mildly competent?


----------



## chilango (Sep 27, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> So we should no longer be voting for Labour councillors now?



I won't be.

(...but then I never have)


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 27, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> So we should no longer be voting for Labour councillors now?



Most of the Labour cllrs round here are either Progress, or inclined that way, so I wouldn't be voting for them anyway, the dog-fucking shitcunts.


----------



## William of Walworth (Sep 27, 2020)

Wilf said:


> I'm struggling to see that as anything done by Labour/Starmer, more a case of being handed a lead by johnson.



Absolutely correct, but continuing Johnson uselessness is what could (possibly!) help Starmer's election prospects further, and for longer, than a lot of people posting on this thread think (or assume).

I'm no Starmer fan, at all, but I think some posters here risk underestimating the appearance of competence factor (with a  bit of actual, too) -- I mean in electoral prospects terms only ........


----------



## brogdale (Sep 28, 2020)

Another lucky break for Starmer?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 28, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Another lucky break for Starmer?



While I’d imagine he won’t be shedding many tears for Webbe (who let’s remember has only been charged at this point and states she is innocent) I’m not clear as to why this is a ‘lucky break’ for Starmer, unless you think he’s going to withdraw the whip using this court case as the pretext?


----------



## kebabking (Sep 28, 2020)

William of Walworth said:


> Absolutely correct, but continuing Johnson uselessness is what could (possibly!) help Starmer's election prospects further, and for longer, than a lot of people posting on this thread think (or assume).
> 
> I'm no Starmer fan, at all, but I think some posters here risk underestimating the appearance of competence factor (with a  bit of actual, too) -- I mean in electoral prospects terms only ........



Something that isn't reflected in the thread is the marked lack of appetite of traditional Tory voters for Johnson - they dont like him, never have, and they certainly don't trust him - they voted for him in 2019 with gritted teeth because they so loathed Corbyn. 

These people may or may not be susceptable to Starmers charms, but they aren't going to be 'forced' into Johnson's arms by the prospect of the Ogre Starmer - for them he's safe, decent enough, and probably reasonably competent.

Elections aren't just about who votes for you, it's also about who isn't exercised enough to vote for your opponent.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 28, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> While I’d imagine he won’t be shedding many tears for Webbe (who let’s remember has only been charged at this point and states she is innocent) I’m not clear as to why this is a ‘lucky break’ for Starmer, unless you think he’s going to withdraw the whip using this court case as the pretext?


AFAIK, Starmer has not yet decided whether or not to withdraw the whip, but the opportunity to discredit another Corbyn loyalist must be mighty tempting.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 28, 2020)

brogdale said:


> AFAIK, Starmer has not yet decided whether or not to withdraw the whip, but the opportunity to discredit another Corbyn loyalist must be mighty tempting.


so she's been charged with harassment
she's up in court soon
she may well be convicted

and you think that withdrawing the whip will be the bit that discredits her?


----------



## brogdale (Sep 28, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> so she's been charged with harassment
> she's up in court soon
> she may well be convicted
> 
> and you think that withdrawing the whip will be the bit that discredits her?


like I said...another lucky break for Starmer.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 28, 2020)

brogdale said:


> like I said...another lucky break for Starmer.


she seems to have discredited herself, tbh. starmer may withdraw the whip. he may not. but his actions won't discredit her more than she's already done.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 28, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> she seems to have discredited herself, tbh. starmer may withdraw the whip. he may not. but his actions won't discredit her more than she's already done.


Yes, I should have said that Starmer may well capitalise on her discrediting herself.


----------



## rasputin (Sep 28, 2020)

I suggest it's way too early to predict what will happen with Claudia Webbe MP.

One scenario is that she is tried and found not guilty.  In that case, it's likely that will be the end of it; and any withdrawal of the whip in the meantime will leave the Labour leadership looking rather silly.  I doubt very much they will fall into that trap.

On the other end of the spectrum, if she is tried, convicted and imprisoned (and that's highly speculative, given that we don't know of what she is liable to be accused) then it's pretty much guaranteed that the whip will be withdrawn. She may also be subject to a recall petition under the Recall of MPs Act 2015. You may remember that this was what unseated Fiona Onasanya in 2019. 

But the bottom line is, at this point, we don't know.


----------



## belboid (Sep 28, 2020)

As we have no idea what the context of these charges are, then any speculation id just wish fulfilment


----------



## Serge Forward (Sep 28, 2020)

It's a bit of a turn-around, whatever's been happening. It's been a bit of an open secret in certain Leicester quarters that Webbe has been getting some serious grief from Vazists and BJP elements since she got elected. I've no idea whether this has anything to do with the ongoing nastiness though, or whether it's totally unconnected (not being in any way associated with Labour). I'll ask around.


----------



## kebabking (Sep 29, 2020)

The discrediting/de-fanging has already been done - regardless of the result an MP who's been charged loses legitimacy. The left of the party can't, with any seriousness, push for her to be promoted, any kind of leadership bid will go nowhere, acting as a 'figurehead' for the left is no longer an option, and Starmer isn't going to lose sleep at the idea of the CLP deciding that it doesn't want her as it's candidate for the next GE...

The nature of the charge means that even if she's aquitted, all manner of grotty personal stuff is going to come out. She's _damaged goods _regardless of the outcome of the trial.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 29, 2020)

The police are going to be confident given their reluctance to ever charge an MP.


----------



## rasputin (Sep 29, 2020)

OK, so it turns out I was wrong. Labour has withdrawn the whip from Claudia Webbe. I'm surprised.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 29, 2020)

rasputin said:


> OK, so it turns out I was wrong. Labour has withdrawn the whip from Claudia Webbe. I'm surprised.


Her CLP jumping straight in not helping matters:

CLP accused of prejudicing case of MP Claudia Webbe with tweet on party action


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 29, 2020)

rasputin said:


> OK, so it turns out I was wrong. Labour has withdrawn the whip from Claudia Webbe. I'm surprised.



Revealing of how weak the 'left' within the PLP has so rapidly become that Starmer can just impose this. While I don't know the facts of the case against her she is innocent of the charge until proven otherwise. Removing the whip is staggeringly premature.


----------



## belboid (Sep 29, 2020)

Starmer is an ex prosecutor and the Tories have refused to remove the whip from someone accused of rape.   It would have been pretty astounding if he hadn’t removed the whip - keeping the moral high ground and all that.


----------



## andysays (Sep 29, 2020)

To me, harassment sounds like a far less serious crime than rape, though I suppose it could cover a range of situations, some quite serious.

Obviously we don't know and shouldn't speculate about the circumstances of this case, but in general terms, what actions or behaviour might lead to a charge of harassment?


----------



## belboid (Sep 29, 2020)

andysays said:


> To me, harassment sounds like a far less serious crime than rape, though I suppose it could cover a range of situations, some quite serious.
> 
> Obviously we don't know and shouldn't speculate about the circumstances of this case, but in general terms, what actions or behaviour might lead to a charge of harassment?


Causing ‘alarm or distress’, putting people in fear of violence, including ‘repeated attempts to impose unwanted communications and contact upon a victim in a manner that could be expected to cause distress or fear in any reasonable person.‘


----------



## Cerv (Sep 29, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Revealing of how weak the 'left' within the PLP has so rapidly become that Starmer can just impose this. While I don't know the facts of the case against her she is innocent of the charge until proven otherwise. Removing the whip is staggeringly premature.


it's only a temporary suspension for now pending the outcome. 
I don't think it is a left v right thing, I'm sure under Corbyn's leadership he'd have done the same.
after making such a fuss of the Tories not suspending their own arrested / charged MPs (or reinstating them for internal leadership ballots) it'd look pretty stupid for Labour not to do the same.


----------



## andysays (Sep 29, 2020)

belboid said:


> Causing ‘alarm or distress’, putting people in fear of violence, including ‘repeated attempts to impose unwanted communications and contact upon a victim in a manner that could be expected to cause distress or fear in any reasonable person.‘


Thanks


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 29, 2020)

Cerv said:


> it's only a temporary suspension for now pending the outcome.
> I don't think it is a left v right thing, I'm sure under Corbyn's leadership he'd have done the same.
> after making such a fuss of the Tories not suspending their own arrested / charged MPs (or reinstating them for internal leadership ballots) it'd look pretty stupid for Labour not to do the same.



Yes, it’s temporary but under law she is innocent at this point. For all we know this is a politically motivated complaint without merit.


----------



## belboid (Sep 29, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Yes, it’s temporary but under law she is innocent at this point. For all we know this is a politically motivated complaint without merit.


She’s been arrested and charged.   Which makes it rather unlikely it is purely meritless politics.


----------



## mauvais (Oct 3, 2020)

I watched _From Russia With Love_ today and I note that Keir Starmer is in it twice, something that unlike his DPP role, he never seems to mention.





What other famous films has he been in?


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Oct 6, 2020)

Another day, another opportunity for the revisionist Starmer clique to abstain on a Government bill. This time granting M15 even more power to terrorise activists. 









						MI5 bill prompts rebellion by 20 Labour MPs against Starmer
					

MPs, including Jeremy Corbyn, defied leadership and voted against bill




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## ska invita (Oct 6, 2020)

The bill passes anyway, the Tory majority makes Labour irrelevant.
What I don't understand is why three line whip to abstain and not vote against? What fucking difference does it make?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 6, 2020)

ska invita said:


> The bill passes anyway, the Tory majority makes Labour irrelevant.
> What I don't understand is why three line whip to abstain and not vote against? What fucking difference does it make?



With the 'let soldiers off for war crimes' bill his rationale was he didn't want to be seen as in any way opposed to Our Brave Lads Who Do War Crimes. He could've actually made some kind of principled argument for why war crimes are bad or something, but that would require principles, or at least enough of an idea of what principles are to allow him to pretend to have some.

Starmer's learned his lesson. No more doing anything to upset the gammons. They're the only voting bloc left in the game now after all. And certainly no challenging the tory narrative on anything.


----------



## two sheds (Oct 6, 2020)

Also has the benefit that he can weed out any remaining people from the left with jobs - anyone stepping out of line gets dismissed, and so also helps keep people in order.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 6, 2020)

two sheds said:


> Also has the benefit that he can weed out any remaining people from the left with jobs - anyone stepping out of line gets dismissed, and so also helps keep people in order.



Yes and that's a really shit tactical move. Nadia Whittome is really popular, especially on her home turf in Nottingham where the previous Blairite turncoat Chris Leslie was widely loathed. But Starmer doesn't get that, or the value of having politicians that can relate to, and actually are, normal folk.


----------



## teqniq (Oct 6, 2020)

I think I can safely say that Labour's fucked for me, as any vaguely credible alternative.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 6, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> With the 'let soldiers off for war crimes' bill his rationale was he didn't want to be seen as in any way opposed to Our Brave Lads Who Do War Crimes. He could've actually made some kind of principled argument for why war crimes are bad or something, but that would require principles, or at least enough of an idea of what principles are to allow him to pretend to have some.
> 
> Starmer's learned his lesson. No more doing anything to upset the gammons. They're the only voting bloc left in the game now after all. And certainly no challenging the tory narrative on anything.


In which case whip to support the bill...abstaining is the same as not voting for in all practical terms. The difference between voting against and abstaining is semantic in this case.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 6, 2020)

ska invita said:


> In which case whip to support the bill...abstaining is the same as not voting for in all practical terms. The difference between voting against and abstaining is semantic in this case.



As if anyone even cares how the opposition votes on these bills. It's all just office intrigue and the real world doesn't enter into it.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 6, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> As if anyone even cares how the opposition votes on these bills. It's all just office intrigue and the real world doesn't enter into it.


exactly...hence i dont get why this hill


----------



## teqniq (Oct 6, 2020)

This young lady is in the wrong party, I feel.


----------



## belboid (Oct 6, 2020)

ska invita said:


> The bill passes anyway, the Tory majority makes Labour irrelevant.
> What I don't understand is why three line whip to abstain and not vote against? What fucking difference does it make?


Had our clp last week, the mp was justifying her abstention.  ‘We can’t be seen to be against veterans’ ‘we can’t do anything unless we’re in power’ and ‘we’ll look to amend it later’ was her bullshit.


----------



## NoXion (Oct 6, 2020)

belboid said:


> We can’t be seen to be against veterans



Because all veterans have committed war crimes?


----------



## ska invita (Oct 6, 2020)

belboid said:


> Had our clp last week, the mp was justifying her abstention.  ‘We can’t be seen to be against veterans’ ‘we can’t do anything unless we’re in power’ and ‘we’ll look to amend it later’ was her bullshit.


mind boggles

how is it against veterans?
how is abstaining different from voting against
no one is even watching this - I havent even seen it reported other than Nadine + 2 getting sacked off. 
which is another thing - why isnt this being reported more prominently? in my mind its a huge event


----------



## belboid (Oct 6, 2020)

NoXion said:


> Because all veterans have committed war crimes?


Shh, don’t use logic or principle!


----------



## NoXion (Oct 6, 2020)

Labour are still slaves to PR, which basically means running scared of the tabloid scum. Why?! Their circulation, and thus their influence, has been on a downward trend for years.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 6, 2020)

NoXion said:


> Labour are still slaves to PR, which basically means running scared of the tabloid scum. Why?! Their circulation, and thus their influence, has been on a downward trend for years.


are the tabloids even reporting it? this is hardly immigration controls on mugs moment. genuinely baffled
dont allow torture etc should be a labour open goal against the nasty cunt party


----------



## two sheds (Oct 6, 2020)

tbf if corbyn had been leader still and labour had block voted against, the tabloids would be having front pages accusing him of sympathy for terrorists, hatred of our brave boys and girls, and the like.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 6, 2020)

two sheds said:


> tbf if corbyn had been leader still and labour had block voted against, the tabloids would be having front pages accusing him of sympathy for terrorists, hatred of our brave boys and girls, and the like.


i disagree... My impression is this whole bill is being consciously ignored by the press as it's indefensible. 
Objecting to is an easy position to take in that what is being enacted is outrageous and wouldn't have public support


----------



## two sheds (Oct 6, 2020)

Yes indeed they should have voted No, I still think the papers would have jumped at any excuse to give Corbyn a kicking though.


----------



## Chilli.s (Oct 6, 2020)

ska invita said:


> should be a labour open goal against the nasty cunt party


Would have thought so, but it seems not.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 6, 2020)

two sheds said:


> Yes indeed they should have voted No, I still think the papers would have jumped at any excuse to give Corbyn a kicking though.


Hard to disagree, but any press attack line of Our Brave Secret Services must be able to kill torture and rape with impunity isn't going to go far


----------



## two sheds (Oct 6, 2020)

Yes fair point on reflection.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 6, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Hard to disagree, but any press attack line of Our Secret Services must be able to kill torture and rape with impunity isn't going to go far


50 years of bond films have given generations the impression that when our secret services torture and kill they do so suavely and with good manners.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 6, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> 50 years of bond films have given generations the impression that when our secret services torture and kill they do so suavely and with good manners.


to be serious i genuinely believe that if the general public were even aware this was happening (which they aren't) they wouldn't support it - i think theyd in the vast majority say it is deeply "against british values" (sic). i feel ill waffling about this knowing its going through into law so smoothly. so depressing


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 6, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Hard to disagree, but any press attack line of Our Brave Secret Services must be able to kill torture and rape with impunity isn't going to go far



Even if the press attacked Labour for voting against the government (which is what the opposition is actually supposed to do, clues in the name) it's hard to see how it would cost Labour anything. Not like they've got a poll lead to maintain, or any kind of traction at all with the general public.

It's ideological for Starmer this one. He fucking loves his law and order, provided neither applies to the people supposedly upholding them. If anything I'm surprised he didn't whip his MPs to support the bill. Remember this is the man who could've prosecuted undercover filth and their handlers for perverting the course of justice, human rights violations, rape etc but didn't.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 6, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Hard to disagree, but any press attack line of Our Brave Secret Services must be able to kill torture and rape with impunity isn't going to go far



Not even secret services, but any lowlife who agrees to play both sides to save his own skin. Could be islamists, white supremacists, gangsters you name it.


----------



## andysays (Oct 7, 2020)

Unite decides to cut Labour affiliation money amid frustrations


> A meeting of the Unite union executive has decided to cut its affiliation money to the Labour Party by about 10%, BBC Newsnight understands. Unite is the Labour Party's single biggest donor, providing the party with millions in funding every year.





> But there is anger in the union about Labour's direction under Sir Keir Starmer with a source saying he and his inner team were "just not listening". The Labour Party has so far not commented on the decision.


If other unions follow suit it could be a case of Keir today, gone tomorrow (apologies if someone's already made that joke)


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Oct 7, 2020)

andysays said:


> Unite decides to cut Labour affiliation money amid frustrations
> 
> 
> If other unions follow suit it could be a case of Keir today, gone tomorrow (apologies if someone's already made that joke)


They should do a 100% cut


----------



## chilango (Oct 7, 2020)

two sheds said:


> tbf if corbyn had been leader still and labour had block voted against, the tabloids would be having front pages accusing him of sympathy for terrorists, hatred of our brave boys and girls, and the like.



they would regardless of how they voted. Fuck, Corbyn could have hacked up Bin Laden with a rusty trowel and used his dismembered corpse as an allotment scarecrow and he'd still be painted as terrorist sympather.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 7, 2020)

Count Cuckula said:


> They should do a 100% cut



No chance of that. Unite hacks are embedded in the Labour Party at every level. The 10% cut is smart - membership income is dropping due to Covid lay offs, redundancies, short time working etc  - and can also serve as a ‘warning’ to Starmer. But the idea that the union leadership and lay bureaucrats would walk away from Labour misreads their symbiotic relationship.

Far more effective would be members taking action to opt out of the political fund. A course of action that many members take once they become aware that they are paying in to it and that they can decide not to.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Oct 7, 2020)

chilango said:


> they would regardless of how they voted. Fuck, Corbyn could have hacked up Bin Laden with a rusty trowel and used his dismembered corpse as an allotment scarecrow and he'd still be painted as terrorist sympather.


"Corbyn gives 9/11 mastermind a job"


----------



## belboid (Oct 7, 2020)

Yeah, this is as much about unites membership losses as a specifically anti-Starmer thing.   Interesting that (leadership contender) Howard Beckett was leading the charge for a bigger cut.    And that the payment to the scabs on that panorama programme


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 7, 2020)

Lord Camomile said:


> "Corbyn gives 9/11 mastermind a job"


Corbyn hides bin laden


----------



## chilango (Oct 7, 2020)

...and didn't even have the respect to wear a tie!


----------



## ska invita (Oct 7, 2020)

Great to see Sir Starmer finally digging in on a Covid issue, namely why are pubs closing at 10, especially so on the day Scotland is closing theirs


----------



## vanya (Oct 8, 2020)

Keir Starmer's Trade Union Dramarama
					

At a stroke, Labour is set to lose £700k worth of funding next year. This follows Unite's decision  to cut its donation to the party after ...




					averypublicsociologist.blogspot.com
				






> At a stroke, Labour is set to lose £700k worth of funding next year. This follows Unite's decision to cut its donation to the party after the large "shut up and go away" payments made to the so-called _Panorama_ whistleblowers. Seen as a shot across Keir Starmer's boughs, Len McCluskey warned the party must stick with leftwing policies or receive less monies. Fair enough, you might say. And why not, unions are the self-defence of organised workers. They're not a piggybank.
> 
> Truth be tol, Keir's success in eschewing the left has proved successful so far - if you judge success by the metrics of the Tory press playing nice, good personal ratings, and the slow collapse of the Tories' polling position. As discussed here many, many times, an opposition ostentatiously going out its way to not be too oppositional and saying nothing policy-wise is quite deliberate. And by the yardstick the leadership have set themselves, it's working. Though of late there has been a frecon of a change, less a nod and more a wink to the left. Last week, on the occasion of Black History Month, Keir said this should be on the school curriculum. Later, he reiterated his commitment to the Corbyn-lite pledges that sealed his leadership deal, _including_ higher taxes for the well off.
> 
> ...


----------



## Streathamite (Oct 8, 2020)

belboid said:


> tbf, his musical taste doesn't appear to be _awful _- http://camdennewjournal.com/article...9xkd6TnZt_8B-Akdf_Qt1rt_yNfBOTYoW__7wVGfYDbfA


poor old Edwyn Collins doesn't look to well in that photo


----------



## andysays (Oct 8, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> poor old Edwyn Collins doesn't look to well in that photo


He had a stroke a few years back.


----------



## stethoscope (Oct 14, 2020)

Starmer still urging Labour MPs to not vote against the spycops bill and instead abstain...







Quite why anyone still holds out hope for Labour fuck only knows.

This twitter post take on it rather sums up some of my feelings...


----------



## MrSki (Oct 15, 2020)

Dan Carden (who I had not heard of till yesterday) resigns from the shadow front bench over the CHIS bill. An MP to watch.


----------



## teqniq (Oct 15, 2020)

i had a reply from one Peter Bradbury, who I surmise is an assistant to my MP Kevin Brennan when I mailed him asking him to vote against the CHIS bill replied with this:



Spoiler: reply from my MP





*BRADBURY, Peter*
12:20 (41 minutes ago)
to

Dear Constituent,

Thank you for writing to me regarding the Covert Human Intelligence Sources (Criminal Conduct) Bill.

This Bill is about “covert human intelligence sources” – undercover agents – who are working to disrupt some of the vilest crimes imaginable, including terrorism, violent drug gangs, serious and organised crime and child sexual exploitation.

It’s vital that our security services are able to disrupt this activity, prevent further crime and bring people to justice. Since March 2017, MI5 and Counter Terror Police have together thwarted 27 terror attacks.

It cannot be right, though, that this has been happening in the shadows and without being subject to a clear legal framework or robust accountability. I believe this activity should be in law, with strong safeguards.

The CHIS Bill is not perfect, but it is an improvement on the status quo. Without it, undercover sources would either not be able to operate – therefore removing a vital tool for the security services to prevent very serious crimes – or would continue to operate in the shadows, away from the legal oversight.

Crucial to these safeguards is the fact that the Human Rights Act is on the face of the Bill. This means that no criminal authorisation can go beyond its limits, in effect this prohibits murder, torture and sexual violence. As the Bill continues to progress through Parliament, next in the House of Lords, Labour will also argue for even stronger protections.

As this Bill does not have retrospective power, it does not impact upon the search for justice for the wrongs of the past. The Bill does not impact on the legitimate work of trade unions. The 2016 Investigatory Powers Act, contains significant safeguards that prevents interference with legitimate trade union activity: the Labour Party secured changes to the Bill including Section 20, which is a clear protection for Trade Unions.

The last Labour Government banned the practice of blacklisting and a future Labour Government will build upon that and stand beside those campaigning for justice. The next Labour Government will ensure the release of papers for both Shrewsbury 24 and the Cammell Laird shipyard workers. The next Labour Government will also order a full public inquiry into the events at Orgreave in 1984 and its aftermath. We stand with the victims of the terrible, disgraceful ‘spy cops’ scandal. Labour is committed to implementing the recommendations of the Mitting Inquiry.

We will continue to press the Government on vital safeguards, we will put the public’s safety first as part of our commitment to Labour’s role in keeping individuals, families and our country safe.



Way to go for not answering the question. i have said as much in my reply asking for a definitive answer


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 15, 2020)

teqniq said:


> i had a reply from one Peter Bradbury, who I surmise is an assistant to my MP Kevin Brennan when I mailed him asking him to vote against the CHIS bill:
> 
> 
> 
> Way to go for not answering the question. i have said as much in my reply asking for a definitive answer



I dunno, I somehow quite like the sheer level of mental contortion needed to argue that a carte blanche to commit crimes represents oversight.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 15, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> I dunno, I somehow quite like the sheer level of mental contortion needed to argue that a carte blanche to commit crimes represents oversight.


the oversight is the lack of oversight


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 15, 2020)

teqniq said:


> i had a reply from one Peter Bradbury, who I surmise is an assistant to my MP Kevin Brennan when I mailed him asking him to vote against the CHIS bill replied with this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


i don't understand the significance of march 2017

is it because there was one there which they signally failed to disrupt?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 15, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> the oversight is the lack of oversight



Yeah this is why you have to add a few extra steps to pad out the argument.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Oct 15, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> I dunno, I somehow quite like the sheer level of mental contortion needed to argue that a carte blanche to commit crimes represents oversight.


It struck me that it was lack of mental contortion more than anything.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 15, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> Yeah this is why you have to add a few extra steps to pad out the argument.


just stick some bubblewrap in there


----------



## two sheds (Oct 15, 2020)

They always do that, stressing the disgusting/violent nature of the crimes they'll be preventing while glossing over the perfectly legal and correct actions that they'll be targeting too because it's so broadly worded.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Oct 15, 2020)

Unite should cut to 100% until Labour ditches the revisionist Starmer clique and develops a suitable revenge policy to enact against all the scabs and scum who participated in the anti-socialist uprising of December 2019 (i.e. tory voters). All those traitors who let the Tory nationalist scum breach the Red Wall must be made to the pay the price for their treason. Fucking vermin.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 15, 2020)

If the bill is so good then vote for it, dont abstain


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 15, 2020)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Unite should cut to 100% until Labour ditches the revisionist Starmer clique and develops a suitable revenge policy to enact against all the scabs and scum who participated in the anti-socialist uprising of December 2019 (i.e. tory voters). All those traitors who let the Tory nationalist scum breach the Red Wall must be made to the pay the price for their treason. Fucking vermin.



I'd say tell Starmer he gets fuck all until he kicks out the racists, fifth columnists and saboteurs who (checks notes) helped him get his job.


----------



## co-op (Oct 15, 2020)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Unite should cut to 100% until Labour ditches the revisionist Starmer clique and develops a suitable revenge policy to enact against all the scabs and scum who participated in the anti-socialist uprising of December 2019 (i.e. tory voters). All those traitors who let the Tory nationalist scum breach the Red Wall must be made to the pay the price for their treason. Fucking vermin.



I'll start drafting the NEC motion. Should get nodded through.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 15, 2020)




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## rasputin (Oct 15, 2020)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Unite should cut to 100% until Labour ditches the revisionist Starmer clique and develops a suitable revenge policy to enact against all the scabs and scum who participated in the anti-socialist uprising of December 2019 (i.e. tory voters). All those traitors who let the Tory nationalist scum breach the Red Wall must be made to the pay the price for their treason. Fucking vermin.



Alternatively, find a way to persuade them to vote Labour in future?  Which probably does mean developing a credible Socialist alternative to the Tories; but probably doesn't involve calling them scabs, scum and vermin.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Oct 15, 2020)

rasputin said:


> Alternatively, find a way to persuade them to vote Labour in future?  Which probably does mean developing a credible Socialist alternative to the Tories; but probably doesn't involve calling them scabs, scum and vermin.



The scabs had a credible socialist alternative in 2019, but they chose Boris and Mogg instead. Hence they must be sanctioned.


----------



## rasputin (Oct 15, 2020)

Jeff Robinson said:


> The scabs had a credible socialist alternative in 2019, but they chose Boris and Mogg instead. Hence they must be sanctioned.



It's not me, nor probably anyone on here, you you need to convince.


----------



## Streathamite (Oct 15, 2020)

Jeff Robinson said:


> The scabs had a credible socialist alternative in 2019, but they chose Boris and Mogg instead. Hence they must be sanctioned.


Unfortunately, that probably won't win the red wall voters back, or win over any others, anywhere else. You are going into the 'Philosophical' dead end there (see the Brexit thread).


----------



## MrSki (Oct 15, 2020)

MrSki said:


> Dan Carden (who I had not heard of till yesterday) resigns from the shadow front bench over the CHIS bill. An MP to watch.


----------



## rasputin (Oct 15, 2020)

Pub renamed in Wirrall...


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 15, 2020)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Unite should cut to 100% until Labour ditches the revisionist Starmer clique and develops a suitable revenge policy to enact against all the scabs and scum who participated in the anti-socialist uprising of December 2019 (i.e. tory voters). All those traitors who let the Tory nationalist scum breach the Red Wall must be made to the pay the price for their treason. Fucking vermin.



How likely are Unite to follow this advised course of action Jeff? Also, what price is it we want the ‘vermin’ to pay?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 15, 2020)

rasputin said:


> Alternatively, find a way to persuade them to vote Labour in future?  Which probably does mean developing a credible Socialist alternative to the Tories; but probably doesn't involve calling them scabs, scum and vermin.



Nah, calling people scabs, scum, tories, racists is working out really well in my view.


----------



## planetgeli (Oct 15, 2020)

MrSki said:


> Dan Carden (who I had not heard of till yesterday) resigns from the shadow front bench over the CHIS bill. An MP to watch.



This reminds me, I keep meaning to ask who is Keir Starmer? 

I mean, I hear his name occasionally but nothing of any substance...


----------



## MickiQ (Oct 15, 2020)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Unite should cut to 100% until Labour ditches the revisionist Starmer clique and develops a suitable revenge policy to enact against all the scabs and scum who participated in the anti-socialist uprising of December 2019 (i.e. tory voters). All those traitors who let the Tory nationalist scum breach the Red Wall must be made to the pay the price for their treason. Fucking vermin.


Running on a platform of "If we get in, we are going to punish you for not voting for us last time" is unlikely to get many votes


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Oct 15, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> How likely are Unite to follow this advised course of action Jeff? Also, what price is it we want the ‘vermin’ to pay?



(1) moderately likely I’d guess
(2) 2 hour self-criticism sessions for the genuinely regretful, three months national service for the unrepentant


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Oct 15, 2020)

MickiQ said:


> Running on a platform of "If we get in, we are going to punish you for not voting for us last time" is unlikely to get many votes



Talking like that is definitely a paddlin'.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 15, 2020)

Jeff Robinson said:


> (1) moderately likely I’d guess
> (2) 2 hour self-criticism sessions for the genuinely regretful, three months national service for the unrepentant



I knew I could rely on you Jeffrey...


----------



## JTG (Oct 15, 2020)

MrSki said:


>


Huge fan of him reprising the Kinnock speech in the House today to troll the Labour right


----------



## MrSki (Oct 15, 2020)

JTG said:


> Huge fan of him reprising the Kinnock speech in the House today to troll the Labour right


He made a bloody good speech yesterday about the corrupt covid contracts which I posted on the covid thread. That was the first time I had heard him & then this pops up.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Oct 15, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I knew I could rely on you Jeffrey...



it’s Jefferson, but thank you all the same. 👊


----------



## Lord Camomile (Oct 15, 2020)

MrSki said:


>


And another.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Oct 15, 2020)

Oooh, aaaaand another:


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 15, 2020)

Fair play to all those MPs who have shown some backbone on this.

Notably absent backbones include that of Angela Rayner


----------



## co-op (Oct 15, 2020)

Laura Kuensberg will doubtless be tweeting about nothing except these resignations for the next week and will make it the lead item on the BBC news, possibly arranging a live on-air resignation.


----------



## Streathamite (Oct 16, 2020)

Lord Camomile said:


> Oooh, aaaaand another:
> 
> View attachment 234502


Does this mean Angie Rayner had _two_ PPS's?


----------



## MrSki (Oct 16, 2020)




----------



## Chilli.s (Oct 16, 2020)

Good, at least some of 'em have some scruples.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Oct 16, 2020)

Eternal glory to those 8 MPs!


----------



## strung out (Oct 16, 2020)

My wife is involved with an NFP organisation Sarah Owen has been advocating for in parliament recently, so really pleased to see she's one of those who voted against.


----------



## belboid (Oct 16, 2020)

PPSs aren’t really ‘front bench’ but fair play to them


----------



## ska invita (Oct 16, 2020)

this story is getting no coverage


----------



## teqniq (Oct 16, 2020)

No indeed it is not. I wonder why?


----------



## chilango (Oct 16, 2020)

Nobody posted this yet?


----------



## teqniq (Oct 16, 2020)

Hmmmm, the knives are out:









						Keir Starmer Has Launched an Unprecedented Crackdown on Rebel MPs | Novara Media
					

As dissent mounts on Labour’s front and backbenches, Keir Starmer is fast-tracking disciplinary action against rebel MPs. Many see it as an attempt to cow the left. Rivkah Brown and Aaron Bastani report.




					novaramedia.com


----------



## platinumsage (Oct 16, 2020)

belboid said:


> PPSs aren’t really ‘front bench’ but fair play to them



All it means for them is less work - it's not like they had bright career prospects under Starmer, so I wouldn't attribute their resignations to any kind of moral rectitude.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Oct 16, 2020)

chilango said:


> Nobody posted this yet?




The Iain Duncan Smiths are pure brilliance


----------



## JTG (Oct 16, 2020)

teqniq said:


> Hmmmm, the knives are out:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Going after your own MPs for... opposing the government. Forensic stuff

EHRC report appears to have got lost in the post so this is probably the fallback position to try and destroy the left of the PLP


----------



## vanya (Oct 16, 2020)

Why Did Labour Abstain on the Spycops Bill?
					

And the latest reading of the Covert Human Intelligence Sources (Criminal Conduct) Bill cleared the House of Commons. 313 voted for it, 98 ...




					averypublicsociologist.blogspot.com
				






> And the latest reading of the Covert Human Intelligence Sources (Criminal Conduct) Bill cleared the House of Commons. 313 voted for it, 98 against. Hold the front page, something's amiss. Lots of votes from honourable members are missing. The bulk of the opposition in fact. 200 MPs abstained, including most of the Labour Party under orders from Keir Starmer himself, while 34 did the principled thing and opposed - several resigning their front bench positions in the process. A New Leadership indeed.
> 
> The government's bill is a crappy, authoritarian piece of work. As Shami Chakrabarti rightly notes, the bill gives licence to undercover agents, be they coppers, spooks, armed forces personnel _or_ from food standards and Gambling Commission, to commit crimes in the discharge of their duties. What could possibly go wrong? It's not like policing, for example, hasn't been hit by allegations of the most disgusting abuse committed by spycops. Naturally, the right are happy to handover power without accountability and shows Boris Johnson's fulsome praise for British freedoms to be piffle, but Labour? What can possibly be gained by enforcing abstention?
> 
> ...


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## JTG (Oct 16, 2020)

Absolutely. The Tory attack line stays the same even when they abstain so it's the worst of all options


----------



## teqniq (Oct 20, 2020)

Frank observations from Dianne Abbott here:


----------



## oryx (Oct 20, 2020)

'I blame his mother for calling him Keir'.


----------



## Chilli.s (Oct 20, 2020)

Keir today gone tomorrow.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 20, 2020)

teqniq said:


> Frank observations from Dianne Abbott here:




Whatever you think of Abbott, she's worth at least thirty of that prick Starmer.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 20, 2020)

Chilli.s said:


> Keir today gone tomorrow.


Keir in the community


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## JimW (Oct 20, 2020)

Keir Hardie-ha-ha.


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## two sheds (Oct 20, 2020)

Voting for NEC elections now open, closes November 12.


----------



## ruffneck23 (Oct 20, 2020)

I really dont Keir. Do you ?


----------



## Raheem (Oct 20, 2020)

Sometimes I think I Keir too much.


----------



## Dogsauce (Oct 20, 2020)

We’re here, we’re Kier, get ambivalent towards it.


----------



## Raheem (Oct 20, 2020)

Dogsauce said:


> We’re here, we’re Kier, get ambivalent towards it.


Not sure it reflects how I feel, but it is funny.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 20, 2020)

Baby I don't keir


----------



## teqniq (Oct 24, 2020)

Not Keith's best moment so far, this:


----------



## ska invita (Oct 24, 2020)

i wonder if he'll ditch Angela... perfect opportunity if he wants to...surely not


----------



## Raheem (Oct 24, 2020)

ska invita said:


> i wonder if he'll ditch Angela... perfect opportunity if he wants to...surely not


She's the one person he can't sack, because she's elected.


----------



## two sheds (Oct 27, 2020)

Keir Starmer contacted by police after collision with cyclist in London
					

Rider taken to hospital after incident involving car said to be driven by Labour’s leader




					www.theguardian.com
				






> Police are investigating a collision involving the Labour leader, Sir Keir Starmer, in which a cyclist was taken to hospital.
> 
> Starmer is understood to have been driving through north-west London around midday on Sunday when the crash occurred in Kentish Town.
> 
> ...


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Oct 27, 2020)




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## two sheds (Oct 27, 2020)

My first thought was Spymaster I must admit


----------



## maomao (Oct 27, 2020)

two sheds said:


> Keir Starmer contacted by police after collision with cyclist in London
> 
> 
> Rider taken to hospital after incident involving car said to be driven by Labour’s leader
> ...


He wasn't far enough to the right. For the first time ever.


----------



## JTG (Oct 27, 2020)

Yeah when we said you should be 20 points ahead we didn't mean on your driver's licence Kieth


----------



## JTG (Oct 27, 2020)

He was issuing warnings two weeks ago but we didn't heed them


----------



## two sheds (Oct 27, 2020)

forensic


----------



## ska invita (Oct 27, 2020)

have we had this?








						Senior Labour frontbencher given 'dressing down' over criticism of Israel
					

Labour leader Keir Starmer reportedly angry with pro-Palestinian MP Stephen Kinnock for saying UK should ban products from illegal Israeli settlements




					www.middleeasteye.net


----------



## brogdale (Oct 27, 2020)

ska invita said:


> have we had this?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Bet the press are hoping the _North London cyclist _is Jewish.


----------



## JTG (Oct 27, 2020)

two sheds said:


> forensic


Well at least forensics were already on the scene as soon as it happened


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Oct 28, 2020)

:


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Oct 28, 2020)

ska invita said:


> have we had this?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I had thought Stephen was a nasty right wing creep like his dad: This shows he has principles. Fair play to him.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 28, 2020)

Larry O'Hara said:


> I had thought Stephen was a nasty right wing creep like his dad: This shows he has principles. Fair play to him.


Yes though I think it's the kind of principles that can be turned on and off


----------



## Knotted (Oct 28, 2020)

Larry O'Hara said:


> I had thought Stephen was a nasty right wing creep like his dad: This shows he has principles. Fair play to him.



It's a pretty bland position to be fair. Any serious commitment to the two state solution would need to take a stand against the settlements. It's more a case that the Labour leadership are now so insanely sensitive/right wing about this issue that they even caught Stephen Kinnock off guard.


----------



## two sheds (Oct 28, 2020)

Good to see Starmer's commitment to international law though.


----------



## Spandex (Oct 28, 2020)

Keir Starmer considers Labour's Covid response...


----------



## planetgeli (Oct 28, 2020)

teqniq said:


> Not Keith's best moment so far, this:





JTG said:


> Yeah when we said you should be 20 points ahead we didn't mean on your driver's licence Kieth




I've been calling him Keith all along. I think we all should.

"We'll never forget ol' Keith Starmer."


----------



## JTG (Oct 28, 2020)

planetgeli said:


> I've been calling him Keith all along. I think we all should.
> 
> "We'll never forget ol' Keith Starmer."


*Kieth


----------



## planetgeli (Oct 28, 2020)

JTG said:


> *Kieth



I don't mind how you misspell twat.


----------



## JTG (Oct 28, 2020)

So it was  Deliveroo rider and Lord Haircut was trying to do an illegal u-turn.

Massively on brand I have to say


----------



## Raheem (Oct 28, 2020)

During the leadership campaign, I seem to remember him promising not to oversteer to the right.


----------



## Sprocket. (Oct 28, 2020)

planetgeli said:


> "We'll never forget ol' Keith Starmer."



He was a man of the people, no, not those people..
Those people who could afford his advice!


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 28, 2020)

Sprocket. said:


> He was a man of the people, no, not those people..
> Those people who could afford his advice!



Like when he 'advised' those folk he'd had wrongfully convicted in unsafe trials compromised by spycop fuckery to appeal against their convictions at their own expense.


----------



## Raheem (Oct 28, 2020)

He should steer calmer.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 28, 2020)

Raheem said:


> He should steer calmer.



You've been in rare form with the one-liners recently I must say.


----------



## Shechemite (Oct 29, 2020)

EHRC out today 
Momentum membership has collapsed 
Apsana ‘Zionist Masters’ Begum charged with housing fraud 

I think Starmer has a bit longer to go


----------



## platinumsage (Oct 29, 2020)

.


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## ska invita (Oct 29, 2020)

JTG said:


> So it was  Deliveroo rider and Lord Haircut was trying to do an illegal u-turn.
> 
> Massively on brand I have to say


in a SUV to visit a tailor? is that true? 
classic


----------



## Steel Icarus (Oct 29, 2020)

ska invita said:


> in a SUV to visit a tailor? is that true?
> classic


#theyrejustlikeus


----------



## JTG (Oct 29, 2020)

ska invita said:


> in a SUV to visit a tailor? is that true?
> classic


Yup

Honeymoon's over and he's made... zero impression tbh


----------



## JTG (Oct 29, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> EHRC out today
> Momentum membership has collapsed
> Apsana ‘Zionist Masters’ Begum charged with housing fraud
> 
> I think Starmer has a bit longer to go


Does this mean I can expect more begging emails from him to prop up his definitely-not-haemorrhaging-members party? Oh good.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Oct 29, 2020)

Another human rights report published today, I suspect this one will be largely ignored though. From the Joint Parliamentary Committee on Human Rights on the Tory Regime's “Legislative Scrutiny: Overseas Operations Bill” (yes, remember one of the one's Starmer ordered Labour MPs to abstain on and threatened action against those who broke ranks):



> The Bill breaches the UK’s international legal obligations under international humanitarian law, human rights law and international criminal law.





			https://committees.parliament.uk/publications/3191/documents/29846/default/
		


Great work ex-human rights barrister Keir Starmer QC!


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 29, 2020)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Another human rights report published today, I suspect this one will be largely ignored though. From the Joint Parliamentary Committee on Human Rights on the Tory Regime's “Legislative Scrutiny: Overseas Operations Bill” (yes, remember one of the one's Starmer ordered Labour MPs to abstain on and threatened action against those who broke ranks):
> 
> 
> 
> ...



He didn't just threaten action. He took action in the slimiest and most cowardly way imaginable. He (or his office) told the press that Nadia Whittome had been fired without bothering to tell her first.


----------



## JTG (Oct 29, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> He didn't just threaten action. He took action in the slimiest and most cowardly way imaginable. He (or his office) told the press that Nadia Whittome had been fired without bothering to tell her first.


That's what they did today as well


----------



## Shechemite (Oct 29, 2020)

The SCG will split from the labour party.


----------



## killer b (Oct 29, 2020)

nah


----------



## chilango (Oct 29, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> The SCG will split from the labour party.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 29, 2020)

i think the variables here are less about people walking now, more:
how many more people are suspended in subsequent days
what is the due process for any hearings and will it be seen to be fair
response from the union bosses to all of the above
...still a lot that can happen and escalate here I think


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Oct 29, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> The SCG will split from the labour party.



Hope or prediction?

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## Shechemite (Oct 29, 2020)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Hope or prediction?
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice



I can’t see it not happening.

Hope? It will create more risk but more opportunity. More turbulence but more clarity.

Can’t win the class struggle by being wimpy


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Oct 29, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> I can’t see it not happening.
> 
> Hope? It will create more risk but more opportunity. More turbulence but more clarity.
> 
> Can’t win the class struggle by being wimpy



The SCG splitting from Labour will facilitate the class struggle (singular?) how?

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 29, 2020)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Hope or prediction?
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice



Delusion


----------



## Shechemite (Oct 29, 2020)

Louis MacNeice said:


> The SCG splitting from Labour will facilitate the class struggle (singular?) how?
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice



I’ll think about it and get back.


----------



## belboid (Oct 29, 2020)

Louis MacNeice said:


> The SCG splitting from Labour will facilitate the class struggle (singular?) how?
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice


There’s more likelihood of the pope leading a split from the Catholic Church than there is of the scg splitting from labour.


----------



## Thaw (Oct 31, 2020)

belboid said:


> There’s more likelihood of the pope leading a split from the Catholic Church than there is of the scg splitting from labour.











						Pope Francis 'tipped to SPLIT Catholic Church' amid feud with Pope Benedict
					

POPE FRANCIS and Pope Benedict's factional feud within the Catholic Church could split the Vatican, an expert warned.




					www.express.co.uk


----------



## ska invita (Nov 2, 2020)

I wonder if Andy Burnham is thinking about making a leadership bid (again) once Sir K has gone? Stars might align for him


----------



## Knotted (Nov 2, 2020)

They might if he were an MP.


----------



## Sprocket. (Nov 2, 2020)

ska invita said:


> I wonder if Andy Burnham is thinking about making a leadership bid (again) once Sir K has gone? Stars might align for him


I think Andy Burnham realises he can do more good politically to help more people in his current post, than he ever could as leader of the opposition.


----------



## ska invita (Nov 2, 2020)

Knotted said:


> They might if he were an MP.


i dont think you have to be an mp to stand as leader


----------



## MickiQ (Nov 2, 2020)

Starmer ain't going anywhere until 2025 (unless he does a John Smith), It's 15 years and 4 leaders (5 if you count Harman) since Labour won an election and the very reason he was picked was the belief that he could win one, until he proves he can't, his position is safe.


----------



## oryx (Nov 2, 2020)

ska invita said:


> i dont think you have to be an mp to stand as leader


I'm not sure, I thought you did, but will wait for someone with more political expertise to confirm!

If that's the case, I'd be very happy indeed to see him win a safe seat in a bye-election and win the leadership in a challenge or under other circumstances. I think he could do a far better job of uniting the LP, winning back voters in the north and midlands and looking like a potential PM than the current incumbent.

Wishful thinking, though.


----------



## killer b (Nov 2, 2020)

You do need to be an MP to be leader of the Labour Party


----------



## belboid (Nov 2, 2020)

killer b said:


> You do need to be an MP to be leader of the Labour Party


You don’t, technically.  The rules (part 4) say MP’s are the only ones to nominate, but there is no restriction on who they can nominate.   In practise they’ll never nominate someone who isn’t an MP but they are quite entitled to.


----------



## ska invita (Nov 2, 2020)

it came up on the What If Bojo lost his seat in the election - it didnt matter basically , in the Tory rulebook at least


----------



## strung out (Nov 2, 2020)

ska invita said:


> it came up on the What If Bojo lost his seat in the election - it didnt matter basically , in the Tory rulebook at least


You can't be Prime Minister if you're not an MP or in the Lords.


----------



## redsquirrel (Nov 2, 2020)

In a truly amazing surprise Starmer walks back from the Labour's 2015-2019 economic policies at the CBI. 


> I’m under no illusion about the work we have to do if we’re to win back your trust. We have bridges to build. And today I want to set out the new partnership I want to build between British business and the Labour party.


----------



## JTG (Nov 2, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> In a truly amazing surprise Starmer walks back from the Labour's 2015-2019 economic policies at the CBI.


I've lost count of the number of pledges he's binned from his fraudulent leadership campaign


----------



## JTG (Nov 2, 2020)

Anyway


----------



## Streathamite (Nov 2, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> The SCG will split from the labour party.


Sadly, that will never happen. they suffer from the same fatal weakness Jeremy Corbyn and Tony benn had; they simply can't imagine a path for preogreesive politics that doesn't include the Labour Party, centre stage


----------



## ska invita (Nov 2, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> In a truly amazing surprise Starmer walks back from the Labour's 2015-2019 economic policies at the CBI.


yeah the line " I’m under no illusion about the work we have to do if we’re to win back your trust. " is a real wind up....Corbynomics was widely support from  major business bodies - in fact it was Tory austerity they kept saying was a fuck up.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 3, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> Sadly, that will never happen. they suffer from the same fatal weakness Jeremy Corbyn and Tony benn had; they simply can't imagine a path for preogreesive politics that doesn't include the Labour Party, centre stage



Also every possible name they could give themselves is already taken by some faction of lunatic trots or other.


----------



## Idris2002 (Nov 3, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> Also every possible name they could give themselves is already taken by some faction of lunatic trots or other.


There's a Hungarian liberal party called Politics Can Be Different. Maybe it sounds better in the original Hungarian. But it does show that you don't have to call things by alphabet soup principles. E2A: though I see now that in Hung. it's still got a snappy acronym, LMP.


----------



## JTG (Nov 3, 2020)

Ronnie Kasrils, Pallo Jordan & Ebrahim Ebrahim have started a South African petition to reinstate Corbyn. More great news for the human rights lawyer in his struggle against one of history's greatest monsters


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 3, 2020)

JTG said:


> I've lost count of the number of pledges he's binned from his fraudulent leadership campaign



Save time by counting the pledges he _hasn't_ binned. It's currently somewhere between zero and minus zero.


----------



## JTG (Nov 3, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> Save time by counting the pledges he _hasn't_ binned. It's currently somewhere between zero and minus zero.


Indeed. I will never tire of telling the Labour members he mugged off with this stuff that they were mugged off


----------



## Sasaferrato (Nov 3, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> Save time by counting the pledges he _hasn't_ binned. It's currently somewhere between zero and minus zero.



Well at the risk of upsetting the Godless heathens on here, most of you felt that Corbyn didn't go far enough, but the GBP disagreed, and gave the worst PM I've ever seen (and it was a keenly fought contest) a majority of 80, and the biggest drubbing Labour has had in my lifetime.

I feel that the 'answer' lies between Corbyn and Johnson, Starmer perhaps?


----------



## ska invita (Nov 3, 2020)

Sasaferrato said:


> Well at the risk of upsetting the Godless heathens on here, most of you felt that Corbyn didn't go far enough, but the GBP disagreed, and gave the worst PM I've ever seen (and it was a keenly fought contest) a majority of 80, and the biggest drubbing Labour has had in my lifetime.
> 
> I feel that the 'answer' lies between Corbyn and Johnson, Starmer perhaps?


Starmer wouldve lost against Johnson in 2019 - Brexit Had To Get Done


----------



## JTG (Nov 3, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Starmer wouldve lost against Johnson in 2019 - Brexit Had To Get Done


Captain Remain, architect of the key vote losing policy in Labour's 2019 platform, losing the Brexit election? 
Bold statement


----------



## yield (Nov 3, 2020)

Sasaferrato said:


> most of you felt that Corbyn didn't go far enough,


I think Corbyn went too far and was too accommodating. Doing deals with the CBI and threatening tens of thousands of extra police. 

Giving in to remain lost the election though, as ska and jtg said.  


Sasaferrato said:


> the biggest drubbing Labour has had in my lifetime.


1983 & 1987 were worse electoral defeats for Labour.


Sasaferrato said:


> I feel that the 'answer' lies between Corbyn and Johnson, Starmer perhaps?


None of the above


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 3, 2020)

Sasaferrato said:


> Well at the risk of upsetting the Godless heathens on here, most of you felt that Corbyn didn't go far enough, but the GBP disagreed, and gave the worst PM I've ever seen (and it was a keenly fought contest) a majority of 80, and the biggest drubbing Labour has had in my lifetime.
> 
> I feel that the 'answer' lies between Corbyn and Johnson, Starmer perhaps?



Depends on the question. If it was, 'who is a man I wouldn't trust further than I could spit a rat?' then Keir Starmer would be an entirely valid answer.


----------



## Raheem (Nov 4, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> Depends on the question. If it was, 'who is a man I wouldn't trust further than I could spit a rat?' then Keir Starmer would be an entirely valid answer.


IMO, if you know how far you can spit a rat, you have no valid answer to anything.


----------



## redsquirrel (Nov 4, 2020)

JTG said:


> Indeed. I will never tire of telling the Labour members he mugged off with this stuff that they were mugged off


Indeed, same people that got mugged by the LibDems in 2010 then getting mugged by Starmer. Never fucking learn.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Nov 9, 2020)

The revisionist Starmer clique urge Labour to learn from Joe Biden’s neo-liberal clique. What they mean by ‘broad coalition’ of course is ‘purge the democrats and Labour of all socialists’. 









						Keir Starmer urges Labour to learn from Joe Biden's 'broad coalition'
					

Writing in the Guardian, Labour leader says strategy that won back votes in the US can work in UK




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## mauvais (Nov 9, 2020)

yield said:


> 1983 & 1987 were worse electoral defeats for Labour.


And 1935.


----------



## Sprocket. (Nov 9, 2020)

Sturmer must be taking a lead from the US Democrats. I had an email from him via the union urging me to request a postal vote for the elections in May.


----------



## ska invita (Nov 9, 2020)

Kayakin' with Kier incoming


----------



## JTG (Nov 10, 2020)

Breaking: Kieth is finally 20 points ahead


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 10, 2020)

JTG said:


> Breaking: Kieth is finally 20 points ahead




Team Kieth will be delighted to see that. Job done. High fives all round. Now to look forward to the session with Biden’s ‘people’ to discuss cyber-transformation of the post industrial economy.


----------



## JTG (Nov 13, 2020)

Unity update:
Loads of officers, including the chair, of Bristol West CLP suspended because they debated - and passed - a motion in support of JC. Bristol area has been a bit feisty lately anyway with an upsurge in rumblings against SW Regional Office and their right wing control freakery. One particularly eye catching complaint is that Regional prevented Kingswood CLP from making donations to ACORN community union and local foodbanks, on the grounds that they were "inappropriate"

NB: Bristol West is a great example of a marginal seat in 2015 becoming extremely safe on a 30 point swing in '17. Suspect the Greens will be excited to see Bristol Labour in turmoil. Bristol CC is Labour controlled with 37/70 seats but I make around 12 of those vulnerable to even a small drop in Labour support next May.


----------



## JTG (Nov 13, 2020)

Meanwhile the announcement of the NEC results have been delayed by a few hours today so that Evans can cancel more votes for left candidates


----------



## Shechemite (Nov 13, 2020)

NEC results are pretty favourable for labour left (from what I know of labour internal stuff)


----------



## brogdale (Nov 13, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> NEC results are pretty favourable for labour left (from what I know of labour internal stuff)


True.
Turns out that they haven't managed to flush out all of the socialists yet.


----------



## two sheds (Nov 13, 2020)

Couldn't write off enough who'd voted then resigned eh


----------



## JTG (Nov 13, 2020)

Shockingly a black candidate fails to finish high enough to be elected in an internal Labour election

(it's not very shocking)


----------



## JTG (Nov 13, 2020)

two sheds said:


> Couldn't write off enough who'd voted then resigned eh


Yeah, turns out the extra few hours to rig the vote weren't enough


----------



## two sheds (Nov 13, 2020)

Glad Pidcock got in though


----------



## JTG (Nov 13, 2020)

two sheds said:


> Glad Pidcock got in though


Sadly Nuke Akehurst got in as well


----------



## belboid (Nov 13, 2020)

Fucking Akehurst as well though.


----------



## JTG (Nov 13, 2020)

belboid said:


> Fucking Akehurst as well though.


A man who couldn't even get nominated by his own CLP


----------



## vanya (Nov 13, 2020)

Who Will Speak for the Dead?
					

Thursday 12th November, 563 dead. Wednesday 11th November, 595 dead. Tuesday 10th November, 532 dead. Every one of these deaths is on the ...




					averypublicsociologist.blogspot.com
				






> Thursday 12th November, 563 dead. Wednesday 11th November, 595 dead. Tuesday 10th November, 532 dead. Every one of these deaths is on the Tories. It's this hideous, ichor-soaked government who've shurgged their shoulders over the repeated, blatant failures of Test and Trace. It was they who resisted calls for an earlier lockdown, which might have saved many of the lives lost. It was also this government who prematurely opened everything up, with workplaces and retail approaching some degree of normality. And lest we forget it was the Tories who bribed people back into pubs, bars, and restaurants. It might have helped stimulate the economy into reporting 15.5% in GDP growth in the last quarter, but a blood price was extracted. Yet, as we have recently noted, the government have proven themselves successful in one endeavour: of shirking blame for this awful state of affairs. Folks can talk about their news management, the collusion of establishment journalism, and clever, clever micropolitical strategies working away to depoliticise their crisis, but above all there's one ingredient making all this possible: HM's official Opposition. It's one thing for the Tories to stay quiet about the dead, but Labour?
> 
> Consider Keir Starmer's Coronavirus record. His approach to the government has seen Labour, um, shadow the government in most aspects. He quickly grasped calling for a two-week "circuit breaker" during half-term was epidemiologically sensible and politically doable. Not too much damage to kids' schooling, and a quick points win - especially when the Tories would be forced to act by rising infections and hospital admissions, all without straying too far from the government's strategy and remaining entirely faithful to SAGE recommendations. Apart from this, at times Keir has proven _even more zealous_ about opening everything to some level of normality. 30 seconds into the leader's shoes he was demanding a timetable for an exit strategy, and there was the embarrassment of notifying the government that he _expected_ the schools to open on time and sod clinical realities. Where Keir has ventured into criticism, it's been process and details, and the famous focus on incompetence. These are necessary criticisms, but not the be-all and end-all of opposition in the age of Covid.
> 
> ...


----------



## JTG (Nov 13, 2020)

Meanwhile it's a Momentum landslide in the Young Labour National Committee elections - sweeping nearly all the seats including the chair.

Not convinced it'll mean much but it will annoy all the worst people so that's something anyway


----------



## JTG (Nov 13, 2020)

JTG said:


> Yeah, turns out the extra few hours to rig the vote weren't enough


On this - it would appear that 6,000 votes out of 135,000 cast were invalidated which is... quite a lot.

Aside from speculating as to the legality of throwing these votes out, it certainly gives some insight into the numbers who have left since Corbyn was suspended


----------



## belboid (Nov 13, 2020)

Akehurst came in first place, annoyingly


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Nov 13, 2020)

Best of luck to those comrades in the battle against the revisionist Akehurst and Starmer cliques.


----------



## JTG (Nov 13, 2020)

belboid said:


> Akehurst came in first place, annoyingly


Worth rigging the vote for I guess


----------



## belboid (Nov 13, 2020)

And now I see our local Labour Left coordinator has been suspended for proposing a pro-JC motion (similar to the Bristol east one)


----------



## JTG (Nov 13, 2020)

belboid said:


> And now I see our local Labour Left coordinator has been suspended for proposing a pro-JC motion (similar to the Bristol east one)


West, not East! 

Now Bristol North West (where I live) has gone over the top:


----------



## JTG (Nov 13, 2020)

JTG said:


> On this - it would appear that 6,000 votes out of 135,000 cast were invalidated which is... quite a lot.
> 
> Aside from speculating as to the legality of throwing these votes out, it certainly gives some insight into the numbers who have left since Corbyn was suspended


Just seen Bastani point out that in 2018, 293,000 votes were cast in the NEC elections so a greater than 50% reduction in votes cast. 
If that's a reflection of membership numbers then they're going to have problems


----------



## two sheds (Nov 13, 2020)

Someone mentioned that he's probably not bothered by membership numbers - I'm assuming he's going for "donations" from business.


----------



## JTG (Nov 13, 2020)

two sheds said:


> Someone mentioned that he's probably not bothered by membership numbers - I'm assuming he's going for "donations" from business.


Well he should stop sending me begging emails even though I'm not a member any more
Following the business model that had the party nearly broke before 2015 isn't really that clever tbh. Especially when the leader's giving away six figure sums to the people who ignored anti-semitism complaints and chucked the General Election

Labour Muslim Network have published a report on Islamophobia in the party today btw. Makes pretty grim reading, as you'd expect from a party that just voted onto the NEC someone who still defends Iraq amongst other things


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Nov 14, 2020)

Another vote of no confidence for the revisionist Starmer clique 









						Labour Islamophobia report: More than half of party's Muslim supporters 'do not trust new leadership to deal with racism'
					

New findings suggest that Keir Starmer's leadership may be losing the support of some ethnic minority members and voters.




					news.sky.com


----------



## two sheds (Nov 14, 2020)

I think we need a thread


----------



## JTG (Nov 14, 2020)

JTG said:


> West, not East!
> 
> Now Bristol North West (where I live) has gone over the top:



I understand Bristol South will be discussing the motion on Thursday


----------



## planetgeli (Nov 14, 2020)

Tomorrow Radio 4, Desert Island Discs. The soundtrack of Keith Starmer's life.

Can't think of anything more depressing right now.


----------



## ska invita (Nov 14, 2020)

planetgeli said:


> Tomorrow Radio 4, Desert Island Discs. The soundtrack of Keith Starmer's life.
> 
> Can't think of anything more depressing right now.



Tony Blair DJ set with Cherie on the mic?


----------



## On Fire (Nov 14, 2020)

Keir Starmer is hated in this thread, but doing quite well in the polls. He is ahead of Boris Johnson. Just thought I would point this out for balance!!


----------



## planetgeli (Nov 14, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Tony Blair DJ set with Cherie on the mic?



Is probably the one disc he'll save from the on-rushing tide, yes.


----------



## two sheds (Nov 14, 2020)

On Fire said:


> Keir Starmer is hated in this thread, but doing quite well in the polls. He is ahead of Boris Johnson. Just thought I would point this out for balance!!



Would like to know how much of that is down to the right wing press not pushing out headlines every couple of days that he's an insanely communist Red Keir or a declared anti-semite (or now islamophobe).


----------



## killer b (Nov 14, 2020)

On Fire said:


> Keir Starmer is hated in this thread, but doing quite well in the polls. He is ahead of Boris Johnson. Just thought I would point this out for balance!!


you're looking for the 'we stan keir starmer' thread, which would be over there >>>> except no-one's got round to starting it yet.


----------



## redsquirrel (Nov 14, 2020)

killer b said:


> you're looking for the 'we stan keir starmer' thread, which would be over there >>>> except no-one's got round to starting it yet.


Get a mod to change the title of this thread


----------



## killer b (Nov 14, 2020)




----------



## Shechemite (Nov 14, 2020)

On the subject of Islamophobia


----------



## JTG (Nov 15, 2020)

On Fire said:


> Keir Starmer is hated in this thread, but doing quite well in the polls. He is ahead of Boris Johnson. Just thought I would point this out for balance!!


Any other leader would be 20 points ahead


----------



## gosub (Nov 15, 2020)

JTG said:


> Any other leader would be 20 points ahead



Ed Davey's party are on 7%.


(tbh I had to google to google who was leading the Lib Dems these days)


----------



## TopCat (Nov 15, 2020)

JTG said:


> Meanwhile it's a Momentum landslide in the Young Labour National Committee elections - sweeping nearly all the seats including the chair.
> 
> Not convinced it'll mean much but it will annoy all the worst people so that's something anyway


They will shelve the committee.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 15, 2020)

On Fire said:


> Keir Starmer is hated in this thread, but doing quite well in the polls. He is ahead of Boris Johnson. Just thought I would point this out for balance!!


He is not hated. Not yet. Loathed yes.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 15, 2020)

JTG said:


> Any other leader would be 20 points ahead





_Just thought I would point this out for balance!!_


----------



## JTG (Nov 15, 2020)

brogdale said:


> View attachment 238903
> 
> _Just thought I would point this out for balance!!_


So his ratings are declining? Pathetic, when literally any other leader would be 20 points ahead of this awful government


----------



## mauvais (Nov 15, 2020)

brogdale said:


> View attachment 238903
> 
> _Just thought I would point this out for balance!!_


Not bad news for Kieth, this - whilst the people polled clearly have vastly different opinions as to the incumbent's fitness for office, to say nothing of the divisive Corbyn years, we see that Labour has finally found its great unifier. As the sun rises over a troubled country, the labourer shakes hands with the landowner, the cat marries the dog and lives blissfully thereafter, the country is asked about the Labour leader and responds in a single voice: "_who?_"


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Nov 15, 2020)

mauvais said:


> Not bad news for Kieth, this - whilst the people polled clearly have vastly different opinions as to the incumbent's fitness for office, to say nothing of the divisive Corbyn years, we see that Labour has finally found its great unifier. As the sun rises over a troubled country, the labourer shakes hands with the landowner, the cat marries the dog and lives blissfully thereafter, the country is asked about the Labour leader and responds in a single voice: "_who?_"


Mind you, some can only manage a 'meow' or a 'woof'.


----------



## pseudonarcissus (Nov 16, 2020)

planetgeli said:


> Tomorrow Radio 4, Desert Island Discs. The soundtrack of Keith Starmer's life.
> 
> Can't think of anything more depressing right now.


I came away with a generally favourable impression...ok, most of the music I’d not choose, but could vote for him

(I live overseas and I’m not sure I’ve heard his voice before)


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Nov 16, 2020)

Labour's racists continue their war against the Palestinians.


----------



## Boris Sprinkler (Nov 16, 2020)




----------



## ska invita (Nov 16, 2020)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Labour's racists continue their war against the Palestinians.



This has got to come to a crunch point soon...does anyone know what it will be? I guess the Corbyn case is totemic, but is there are a particular hearing/ legal case to look forward to?


----------



## Shechemite (Nov 16, 2020)

The Gemma Bolton complaint (and coverage) is daft - and has been called out as such by some of the JLM people (JLM and LAAS have no loved lost)


----------



## JTG (Nov 16, 2020)

Boris Sprinkler said:


> View attachment 239166


Quite right too. It's Kieth


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Nov 17, 2020)

Revisionist renegade Keithite clique backslide on Green agenda









						Labour backtracks on its green agenda
					

By Angus Satow Last week Labour unveiled its first in-depth policy paper under Keir Starmer’s leadership, a plan for a ‘green recovery’ from the coronavirus crisis. In an interview&n…




					labourhub.org.uk


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 17, 2020)

Doesn't it get boring?  Doing that old stuff?


----------



## miktheword (Nov 18, 2020)

Five Labour councillors quit party in protest at Starmer leadership
					

Lancaster city councillors hit out at party’s ‘move rightward’ and treatment of Jeremy Corbyn




					www.theguardian.com
				




Taken before Tuesday's reinstatement

_In a joint statement, the councillors said Labour had “for a brief time” offered hope to millions of people that it would “fundamentally challenge the capitalist system that is destroying our planet”.

They added: “Today under Starmer, it is offering a return to ‘business as usual’.....

They said it was now “clear that socialists have no credible strategy to regain control of the party, … Under this ‘New Leadership’, Labour has failed to oppose the ‘spycops’ bill, which threatens human rights, especially those of trade unionists and left-wing activists. Under this ‘New Leadership’, Labour has failed to provide effective opposition to the government in the pandemic, minimising trade unions’ concerns about the unsafe reopening of schools and universities. _


----------



## oryx (Nov 18, 2020)

Time should definitely be up ... seven months into his leadership the LP are probably now more likely to split than at any time since the SDP in the early 80s.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 18, 2020)

oryx said:


> Time should definitely be up ... seven months into his leadership the LP are probably now more likely to split than at any time since the SDP in the early 80s.


there was a split last year. the tingers.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 18, 2020)

miktheword said:


> Five Labour councillors quit party in protest at Starmer leadership
> 
> 
> Lancaster city councillors hit out at party’s ‘move rightward’ and treatment of Jeremy Corbyn
> ...


their idea of labour fundamentally challenging the capitalist system seems rather different from my understanding of fundamentally challenging the capitalist system. how they must yearn for the halcyon days of 'red' jim callaghan


----------



## brogdale (Nov 18, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> there was a split last year. the tingers.


Ah, yes...I remember...


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 18, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Ah, yes...I remember...
> 
> View attachment 239414


pass the mind bleach


----------



## oryx (Nov 18, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> there was a split last year. the tingers.


I didn't include that because a) The Tinge included people from other parties and b) they didn't go on to be a (relative) success, popular and winning bye-elections etc - and of course they never will


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 18, 2020)

oryx said:


> I didn't include that because a) The Tinge included people from other parties and b) they didn't go on to be a (relative) success, popular and winning bye-elections etc - and of course they never will


they won the bye-bye election, none of them being returned to parliament


----------



## oryx (Nov 18, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> they won the bye-bye election, none of them being returned to parliament


At one point they had about 25% of the electorate supporting them I believe - Tinge probably don't even have 0.25%. 

Parents were big SDP supporters back in the day


----------



## JTG (Nov 18, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> they won the bye-bye election, none of them being returned to parliament


I particularly enjoyed Smith's meltdown over not getting the golden goodbye payment because she'd chosen to abandon her original seat and contest a completely different one


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 18, 2020)

JTG said:


> I particularly enjoyed Smith's meltdown over not getting the golden goodbye payment because she'd chosen to abandon her original seat and contest a completely different one


it's wicked to mock the afflicted


----------



## brogdale (Nov 18, 2020)

oryx said:


> At one point they had about 25% of the electorate supporting them I believe - Tinge probably don't even have 0.25%.
> 
> Parents were big SDP supporters back in the day


SDP had low forties around their peak at Williams' 1981 Crosby by-election success (49% of popular vote). Seems like there's always a strong effort to divide the LP after the election of a left leader.


----------



## killer b (Nov 18, 2020)

oryx said:


> At one point they had about 25% of the electorate supporting them I believe - Tinge probably don't even have 0.25%.


they got as high as 18% in one YouGov poll fwiw


----------



## rummo (Nov 18, 2020)

*'For the first time in 14 years we have the leader of the Labour Party unequivocally committing the party to reversing the legislation which has created in England a broken down, market-based healthcare system'*

David Owen.

But who was he talking about?


----------



## Brainaddict (Nov 19, 2020)

I see Starmer's lot have welcomed the massive splurge on the military, without even bothering to point out that if you've got 16bn to spend on toys for the military then maybe you could afford to not drive millions of children into poverty. 

I have mostly refrained from saying 'I told you so' to all my friends who joined the LP, but this makes me want to say it.


----------



## ska invita (Nov 19, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Seems like there's always a strong effort to divide the LP after the election of a left leader.View attachment 239419


It makes me wonder, how does there come to be such a gulf between Labour membership and Labour MPs...but then the membership just comfortably elected Sir Starmer, so the mystery is solved.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 19, 2020)

ska invita said:


> It makes me wonder, how does there come to be such a gulf between Labour membership and Labour MPs...but then the membership just comfortably elected Sir Starmer, so the mystery is solved.



It does, until you meet Labour Party members. Latter day Beatrice Webb’s....


----------



## ska invita (Nov 19, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> It does, until you meet Labour Party members. Latter day Beatrice Webb’s....


Id be quite interested to see some deep stats on the membership makeup and attitudes
The "boomer" thing can be a bit crude, but I've seen it apply to even very active, seemingly committed older LP members - I expect there's a sizeable generational divide within the ranks (which is not to dismiss solid older members). 
And as to senior Trade Unionists....again anecdotal, but from my small experience of them as a group, a sizeable amount seem to live in a very different financial world. 
Blairs "middle class revolution" definitely had a strong base in the 90s - and an intake of MPs that reflected it - but I expect its dwindling and ageing.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Nov 19, 2020)

ska invita said:


> It makes me wonder, how does there come to be such a gulf between Labour membership and Labour MPs...but then the membership just comfortably elected Sir Starmer, so the mystery is solved.


Many of those who voted for Lord Starmer did so with misgivings. The choice was widely felt to be selecting the best of a pretty poor bunch. All of whom had to be MP's, so that already narrows it down enormously. I bet if there had been a 'none of the above' option it would have done very well.


----------



## Wilf (Nov 19, 2020)

Raheem said:


> He should steer calmer.


Under Milord Keir, Calmer Police?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 19, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Id be quite interested to see some deep stats on the membership makeup and attitudes
> The "boomer" thing can be a bit crude, but I've seen it apply to even very active, seemingly committed older LP members - I expect there's a sizeable generational divide within the ranks (which is not to dismiss solid older members).
> And as to senior Trade Unionists....again anecdotal, but from my small experience of them as a group, a sizeable amount seem to live in a very different financial world.



Here’s a useful starter (pamphlet is linked in the article;Northern Discomfort)

Like their MP’s the membership is increasingly of the professional middle class, southern, city dwelling and _comfortable._

As I say, latter day Beatrice Webb’s prone to social exploration and charitable works among the racist, beer swilling, Brexit voting lower orders


----------



## JTG (Nov 19, 2020)

Unity updates: some former Labour MPs who lost last year sticking the boot in





Drew was MP for Stroud between 1997 & 2010 and again from 2017-19. Very well thought of, generally considered a good bloke locally and I'm told he is absolutely fuming atm. Lost narrowly in Stroud thanks in no small part to a Green campaign that came nowhere near winning but arguably took enough votes off Labour to let the Tories through
Walker was MP for Colne Valley between 2017 & 2019

Click through to that Drew tweet and you'll see Walker agreeing with him and then Anna Turley (Redcar 2015-19) taking issue with them both


----------



## JTG (Nov 19, 2020)

More from Drew:


----------



## ska invita (Nov 19, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Here’s a useful starter (pamphlet is linked in the article;Northern Discomfort)
> Like their MP’s the membership is increasingly of the professional middle class, southern, city dwelling and _comfortable._
> As I say, latter day Beatrice Webb’s prone to social exploration and charitable works among the racist, beer swilling, Brexit voting lower orders


cheers 
though one place I do know a bit about is London - slightly different issue as this is about voters not members, but these maps stick in my mind - I dont think its fair to say Labour in London can be boiled down to "professional middle class, southern, city dwelling and _comfortable"_






darker red represent "White British" as a percentage of population





Its the (generally poorer) "inner city" and ethnically diverse areas that support Labour in 2019, but that pattern goes back some - I remember a similar map when Boris Johnson won the mayorship 
I think its easy to make stereotypical generalisations, however much truth they have, but I think only a really thorough bit of surveying of the membership would show up the complexities of it all
-----------
Anyhow, really good recommendations from the pamphlet, who could argue:


To this end Labour should consider the following ideas.
a) Party structures
● Abandon the notion that we do not need to resource traditionally ‘safe’ Labour seats,
embed and massively expand our community organising model in these places to
empower and win for local people;

● Remove all barriers to ensuring carers, cleaners, factory workers and people from the
gig economy and other low-paid industries can have their voices heard in the party and
can more easily stand for elected office.
- Review membership pricing structures and lead a mass recruitment drive in
communities with ‘Northern’ characteristics. ○ Ensure reserved places on
Labour’s NEC
- Adopt protected shortlists for people from these backgrounds;

● Review an increased role for individual “opted in” trade unionists within our party
structures;

● Mirror calls for a new constitutional settlement in the UK with a complete overhaul of
party structures implementing a federalised structure built from regions and nations with
an NEC that reflects this;

● Form a Greater Northern Caucus that includes representatives elected from MP’s,
Councillors, the Membership and the Trade Unions with an annual conference. This
could be an independent Northern Labour Party, much like that in Scotland;

● Set up a Northern Socialist Network to bring together the labour movement in the North
and strengthen our collective voice.
b) Labour policies and values which could be considered

● Commit to ending austerity and to build universal, local public services, with resources
allocated to communities on the basis of need. Money alone, handed down on high, will
not be enough, so we envisage introducing mechanisms by which local people can
participate and have a greater say in their services, without reverting to the service
“choice” model of New Labour;

● The creation of a Working Peoples Audit Office that reviews the impact of every piece of
legislation on the lives of ordinary people;

● Set up an extensive ‘Marshall Plan’ which includes the North and other deprived areas
of the UK to target spending on post-industrial and coalfield communities to support
developing industries and encourage specialisation - for example ensuring a Green New
Deal has statutory objectives which guarantee social, economic and cultural outcomes;

● A policy of full employment based on full-time, permanent, purposeful green industries,
starting with held back areas, and implementing strong industrial relations laws including
collective sectoral bargaining;

● Turning the debate about regional pay on its head to address income inequality, much
like the system in Germany where the federal government ensures equality through
regional tax redistribution;

● Stem the brain drain from our heartlands and attract talented public servants to seek
employment in our working-class communities by breaking up and moving departments,
institutions and public bodies to the region. Incentivise or legislate for big businesses to
do the same;

● Establish a Citizens’ Wealth Fund to address wealth inequality, using wealth taxes and
asset sales (including assets in the Crown Estate);

● Create regional companies with the aim of taking publicly funded university research to
an end product and socialising its profits and in doing so create full employment, good
jobs and apprenticeships;

● Use procurement and state aid as an end to a market-driven economy.

c) Constitutional and political change
● Create a Council of the North to give a strong voice to the region;

● Set up a constitutional convention with citizens’ assemblies to discuss and debate the
future governance of the country, including debating the proposals in this pamphlet;

● Move beyond on the Tories’ city mayor deals to build genuinely rooted devolved
institutions which give expression to popular sovereignty;

● Argue for and in government implement a democratically elected Senate of the Regions
and Nations;

● Advocate a radical federal structure, including Regional Investment Banks and a
transformative devolution of power.


----------



## editor (Nov 19, 2020)

Keir really is a twat.


----------



## steveseagull (Nov 19, 2020)

Oh dear oh dear. I suspect Keir Starmer's time might well and truly be up. In the short time as leader, he has been the biggest disaster the Labour Party has had for a long time.



The letter:


condemns the ‘double jeopardy’ and ‘deliberate political interference’ of withdrawing the whip from Corbyn after he was reinstated by an NEC panel
makes clear that the decision of the panel was based on independent legal advice *and* the recommendation of Labour’s disciplinary investigative unit
implies that their advice was that there were no valid grounds for Corbyn’s suspension
confirms that the whip *had* been restored to Corbyn on the lifting of his suspension, making an utter mockery of Starmer’s excuse that he was ‘not restoring’ the whip rather than withdrawing it
*makes clear that the meddling in the disciplinary outcome is exactly that kind of ‘political interference’ the EHRC has ruled unlawful*
accuses Starmer and other right-wing MPs of smearing the NEC panel members who acted in accordance with the party’s rules and the legal advice they gave
says that Starmer has put NEC members in a legal bind – and that as a highly-qualified barrister he has no excuse for his ‘unconscionable’ choice
demands that Evans rebuke Starmer for his political interference in party processes and undermining public confidence in Labour’s disciplinary process
‘requires’ Evans to immediately ‘demand’ that Starmer upholds the NEC panel’s decision and restores the whip to Corbyn



What an absolute shambles. He appears to be more into going after Corbyn under pressure from right wingers than taking on the Tories

If only he had a good lawyer









						Exclusive: explosive letter to party from 14 NEC members orders general secretary to rebuke Starmer and instruct him to immediately restore whip to Corbyn
					

Unique window on disciplinary process gives damning view on actions of Labour hierarchy – condemning ‘deliberate political interference’ and making clear Corbyn was reinstated on …




					skwawkbox.org


----------



## two sheds (Nov 19, 2020)

should be expelled


----------



## Raheem (Nov 19, 2020)

He should be 20 resignations ahead.


----------



## steveseagull (Nov 19, 2020)

At this point he needs to tell the Board of Deputies and right wing trolls that hang on to fuck off and start listening to socialist Jewish party members of which I am one. Until he does this, the party is finished.


----------



## Humberto (Nov 19, 2020)

Guy's a menace.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Nov 19, 2020)

steveseagull said:


> What an absolute shambles. He appears to be more into going after Corbyn under pressure from right wingers than taking on the Tories



that's been the case since about 2015...


----------



## steveseagull (Nov 19, 2020)

The list of CLPs that are passing motions of support for Corbyn and condemning Starmer is growing by the minute. A hell of a lot of socialists lent Starmer their vote in order to calm things down. I have seen committed centrists going ape shit over his suspension tonight.


----------



## steveseagull (Nov 19, 2020)

Camberwell and Peckham CLP passed an 80-1 motion this evening in support of Corbyn and that CLP has a fair share of centrist dads in it.


----------



## Raheem (Nov 20, 2020)

steveseagull said:


> Camberwell and Peckham CLP passed an 80-1 motion this evening in support of Corbyn and that CLP has a fair share of centrist dads in it.


TBF, nuff respect to the 1.


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 22, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> The choice was widely felt to be selecting the best of a pretty poor bunch.


So they opted for the cop who even has “sir” in his name as a warning?

FFS, how long does it take Labour members to work out that the party isn’t a vehicle for worthwhile change?


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Nov 22, 2020)

danny la rouge said:


> So they opted for the cop who even has “sir” in his name as a warning?
> 
> FFS, how long does it take Labour members to work out that the party isn’t a vehicle for worthwhile change?


I think many have worked that out, but are deciding where to go next. Others have invested such a lot in Labour that they are reluctant to go just yet.
I quite agree the 'sir' should have been a warning, but the other choices were also off-putting to many. One was a prominent Brexiteer (oh no, don't start that again), the other a professed devout Catholic. And smarmy Starmie lied about party unity and stuff.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 22, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> Others have invested such a lot in Labour that they are reluctant to go just yet.



I wonder how many people that genuinely applies to. Sure, some will have. Those of us who have been in the same boat in respect of political activity will totally get how they are feeling and thinking.

But, for others - the vast majority?? - has the experience really been much more than online activity, ‘defend Jeremy’ stuff, maybe some canvassing and mindless and endless psychodrama.

I don’t sense an army of battle hardened activists unwilling and unable to see all of the good work squandered. I do sense a cycling of people out of political activity and/or single issue stuff. I also get the sense that it’s been a movement that’s barely left a footprint in the snow in respect of political education and _real activity _


----------



## killer b (Nov 22, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> the other a professed devout Catholic


Did anyone give this any consideration all when deciding to vote? I find that pretty hard to believe.


----------



## rummo (Nov 22, 2020)

killer b said:


> Did anyone give this any consideration all when deciding to vote? I find that pretty hard to believe.



Well if they didn't, it wasn't for the want of trying by some.






Paul Mason

@paulmasonnews
·
Jan 17

I've just signed this open letter to the Labour leadership candidates. I don't want Labour's policy on reproductive rights dictated by the Vatican, thanks.


----------



## killer b (Nov 22, 2020)

No-one decided not to vote for RLB because of her Catholicism - that was just something lobbed at her to disrupt her campaign.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Nov 22, 2020)

killer b said:


> Did anyone give this any consideration all when deciding to vote? I find that pretty hard to believe.


Long Bailey wouldn't have mentioned it if she didn't think it would have some impact. She would have thought it was in her interest. But others wouldn't. Personally I would never vote for any devout adherent of any organised religion to represent me in any sphere of life. (There may be exceptions to this absolute rule, of course.)


----------



## rummo (Nov 22, 2020)

killer b said:


> No-one decided not to vote for RLB because of her Catholicism - that was just something lobbed at her to disrupt her campaign.



How would it disrupt her campaign?

Good job she wasn't Jewish, eh?


----------



## two sheds (Nov 22, 2020)

errrrm sorry?


----------



## Argonia (Nov 22, 2020)

two sheds said:


> errrrm sorry?


----------



## killer b (Nov 22, 2020)

rummo said:


> How would it disrupt her campaign?


every day spent having to deny that she wants to restrict women's reproductive rights was a day she wasn't able to talk about her transformative political programme


> Good job she wasn't Jewish, eh?


Absolutely. Although in the current context, a similar attack against a jewish candidate would probably have been deemed a bit on the nose.


----------



## teqniq (Nov 23, 2020)

This guy's pretty pissed off with Keith.


----------



## teqniq (Nov 23, 2020)

Keith is mabye between a rock and a hard place:









						Has Starmer Ended His Own Career?
					

When the internal Labour report was leaked to the public, the new party leader Sir Keir Starmer was accused of attempting a cover up.




					www.councilestatemedia.uk


----------



## teqniq (Nov 23, 2020)

Apparently, this is real:


----------



## rutabowa (Nov 23, 2020)

It definitely doesn't look real, it looks like someone photoshopped it.


----------



## andysays (Nov 23, 2020)

rutabowa said:


> It definitely doesn't look real, it looks like someone photoshopped it.


The original


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Nov 23, 2020)

steveseagull said:


> At this point he needs to tell the Board of Deputies and right wing trolls that hang on to fuck off and start listening to socialist Jewish party members of which I am one. Until he does this, the party is finished.



Socialist Jews such as ourselves are never listened to. Nobody gives a shit about our opinions.


----------



## steveseagull (Nov 23, 2020)

Sir Keith starts a war on young Labour. This will end well....


----------



## steveseagull (Nov 24, 2020)

Sir Keith Stalin is now waging war on Kensington CLP for having a prominent black woman speak about racism.


----------



## steveseagull (Nov 24, 2020)

and back to waging war on the left of the NEC by blocking a union rep becoming chair


----------



## killer b (Nov 24, 2020)

How is the NEC chair elected? 

(I'd boot anyone who had Kerry Anne Mendoza along to speak out of the party if I had the power too tbf. Pretty reasonable. )


----------



## belboid (Nov 24, 2020)

It used to be the longest serving member got it, second longest vice, and then vice gets the chair ie, buggins turn.   It was changed four years ago to a rolling basis, with the vice taking over from the chair after a year.  Thus the right were chair twice under Corbyn and Ian Murray was due up.


----------



## belboid (Nov 24, 2020)

10% drop in membership since Starmer took over - down from 552,835 in April to 495,961 in November.  Impressive.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Nov 24, 2020)

Laura Pidcock, who lost her seat for the first time since the '50s with a 13% swing and who couldn't be friends with a tory was involved, why don't this lot just fuck off?. So much time and energy wasted.


----------



## killer b (Nov 24, 2020)

I wonder why Laura Pidcock lost her seat in North West Durham (55% leave) in a general election leveraged entirely on Brexit. I guess we'll never know.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 24, 2020)

killer b said:


> Kerry Anne Mendoza



Is she still a thing on the crank left? Anecdotally, I never see online (by which I mean on Twitter or Facebook posts) the piss poor publication she was ‘editor’ of. It’s used to be fairly ubiquitous but seems to have gone out of fashion?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 24, 2020)

belboid said:


> 10% drop in membership since Starmer took over - down from 552,835 in April to 495,961 in November.  Impressive.


yeh but as starmer always says it's not quantity but quality that counts. as far as he's concerned the people who have left aren't the people he wants in the party


----------



## killer b (Nov 24, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Is she still a thing on the crank left? Anecdotally, I never see online (by which I mean on Twitter or Facebook posts) the piss poor publication she was ‘editor’ of. It’s used to be fairly ubiquitous but seems to have gone out of fashion?


After the 2017 election facebook altered their algorithms, which seemed to have a significant effect on the various crank left clickbait sites – as far as I can tell they all still exist, and people like Mendoza still have influence, but they don’t have the same reach they once did. I don’t really keep tabs atm though mind…


----------



## killer b (Nov 24, 2020)

FWIW I think it's pretty clear that viral facebook content from Canary, Another Angry Voice etc did have a significant impact on the 2017 election - I saw some analysis from Jim Waterson at the graun comparing the 2017/2019 election campaigns on FB and the difference was pretty stark - whereas in 2017 the leftwing viral pages cleaned up, the action in 2019 was all in closed right-wing groups - and not at all visible to those outside them, and leftwing content which would probably have taken flight in the 2017 election struggled to make any headway. I can't find the piece right now though, annoyingly.


----------



## Mr Moose (Nov 24, 2020)

killer b said:


> I wonder why Laura Pidcock lost her seat in North West Durham (55% leave) in a general election leveraged entirely on Brexit. I guess we'll never know.



Well Laura Pidcock has a view and extraordinarily it doesn’t appear to have been her fault or at least not for reasons she can articulate.









						Letter to the people I represented
					

Dear residents of North West Durham,




					medium.com


----------



## killer b (Nov 24, 2020)

Mr Moose said:


> Well Laura Pidcock has a view and extraordinarily it doesn’t appear to have been her fault or at least not for reasons she can articulate.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Do you think it was 'her fault'? Do you think the voters of North West Durham were voting for or against Laura Pidcock, or her party?


----------



## Mr Moose (Nov 24, 2020)

killer b said:


> Do you think it was 'her fault'? Do you think the voters of North West Durham were voting for or against Laura Pidcock, or her party?



No. Without question her abrasive style would have put people off, reinforced ideas people received about those sorts of left wingers the press were banging on about, but not enough to sway the outcome which was due in the greatest part to Brexit. 

It’s just also clear from what she says that antipathy towards Corbyn was also a big factor that she experienced first hand.


----------



## killer b (Nov 24, 2020)

As long as we're clear it wasn't Laura Pidcock not wanting to be friends with tories that was responsible.


----------



## Mr Moose (Nov 24, 2020)

killer b said:


> As long as we're clear it wasn't Laura Pidcock not wanting to be friends with tories that was responsible.



I’ll bet there are people in Durham who voted Tory and don’t want to be friends with them.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Nov 24, 2020)

killer b said:


> As long as we're clear it wasn't Laura Pidcock not wanting to be friends with tories that was responsible.


She can have whatever views she likes and have whatever friends she likes, but that kind of attitude is not going to get people coming back to Labour, it’s probably why Starmer felt the need to come down like he did.


----------



## killer b (Nov 24, 2020)

Lol sure it was.


----------



## killer b (Nov 24, 2020)

fwiw the 'would you be friends with a tory' discourse is among the most vacuous political shit of the last 5 years, so it's no surprise to see you're still chewing it over.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Nov 24, 2020)

killer b said:


> fwiw the 'would you be friends with a tory' discourse is among the most vacuous political shit of the last 5 years, so it's no surprise to see you're still chewing it over.


I would happily leave it behind.


----------



## killer b (Nov 24, 2020)

it's in your hands. no-one else raised it.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Nov 24, 2020)

killer b said:


> it's in your hands. no-one else raised it.


I meant in the sense i would be happy to leave the hard left in labour behind.


----------



## Mr Moose (Nov 24, 2020)

sleaterkinney said:


> She can have whatever views she likes and have whatever friends she likes, but that kind of attitude is not going to get people coming back to Labour, it’s probably why Starmer felt the need to come down like he did.



I think that’s trivial in the scheme of things.

But today she’s walking out of the NEC in support of a former leader who she found toxic on the doorstep. It doesn’t suggest anything is moving on for her cohort in Labour and while Starmer feels he has to favour Hodge over Corbyn it certainly isn’t moving on in any other cohort either.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 24, 2020)

Mr Moose said:


> But today she’s walking out of the NEC in support of a former leader



Thought she walked out over the issue of who the NEC chair would be? Totally irrelevant outside of the bubble yes, but over Corbyn no.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Nov 24, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Thought she walked out over the issue of who the NEC chair would be? Totally irrelevant outside of the bubble yes, but over Corbyn no.


The bloke who was going to be chair backed Corbyn.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 24, 2020)

sleaterkinney said:


> The bloke who was going to be chair backed Corbyn.



Mr Moose seemed to be suggesting the walk out was in ‘support of the former leader’. It wasn’t.


----------



## killer b (Nov 24, 2020)

It's over left-wing representation in the controlling committee of the party, not Corbyn per se. The news just has it as CORBYN BACKERS because they won't let it go either.


----------



## belboid (Nov 24, 2020)

They walked out because of the way they were being marginalised in general, using the change in process for choosing the chair (a very significant role for choosing what gets discussed and how) as the specific breaking point.  

The idea Starmer could win any election without those members and voters who were inspired by Corbyn is laughable.


----------



## ska invita (Nov 24, 2020)

killer b said:


> (I'd boot anyone who had Kerry Anne Mendoza along to speak out of the party if I had the power too tbf. Pretty reasonable. )


Whats the case file against Kerry? Im not up to speed on these things


----------



## sleaterkinney (Nov 24, 2020)

belboid said:


> The idea Starmer could win any election without those members and voters who were inspired by Corbyn is laughable.


Corbyn himself never managed to.


----------



## killer b (Nov 24, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Whats the case file against Kerry? Im not up to speed on these things


it's mostly here: The Canary, views and discussion...


----------



## steveseagull (Nov 24, 2020)

sleaterkinney said:


> Laura Pidcock, who lost her seat for the first time since the '50s with a 13% swing and who couldn't be friends with a tory was involved, why don't this lot just fuck off?. So much time and energy wasted.



You centrists are pretty authoritarian aren't you. Glad to see all pretence of a broad church has been suddenly dropped since Sir Keith Stalin took over on a bed of lies to the membership . 

Perhaps your idiotic second referendum Brexit position caused that seat to fall , but accepting that would mean accepting some responsibility which you people seem to be unable to do.


----------



## steveseagull (Nov 24, 2020)

As for time wasted, Starmer did not have to start this factional war on Corbyn. It was either his decision or he was bullied into it by your right wing faction and Tory trolls like the Board of Deputies.

But aye, you keep on cheering on this utterly hopeless clown's war on the left whilst the Tories are robbing the country.


----------



## ska invita (Nov 24, 2020)

I dont know much about Labour, but i presume this is quite unusual?


----------



## killer b (Nov 24, 2020)

No, its pretty usual.


----------



## steveseagull (Nov 25, 2020)

So here we go, Starmer admits his Brexit policy cost seats in the North (via the Sun lol) which comes hot off the heals of his admittance that his war on Corbyn is factional (via a threatening letter he sent to the Young Labour chair)

The man is a shambles


----------



## ska invita (Nov 25, 2020)

The Sun have reported it - its highly unlikely that he has briefed the Sun on this. 
He did give a speech saying he'll never talk to the Sun - so expect him to do so ahead of the next election


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 25, 2020)

steveseagull said:


> So here we go, Starmer admits his Brexit policy cost seats in the North (via the Sun lol) which comes hot off the heals of his admittance that his war on Corbyn is factional (via a threatening letter he sent to the Young Labour chair)
> 
> The man is a shambles



Strong and stable my arse


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 25, 2020)

ska invita said:


> The Sun have reported it - its highly unlikely that he has briefed the Sun on this.
> He did give a speech saying he'll never talk to the Sun - so expect him to do so ahead of the next election


Yeh he doesn't need to talk to the sun while he has aides to do it for him


----------



## sleaterkinney (Nov 25, 2020)

Of course he will back the deal and let the tories own the mess that follows, he's been open about that for a long while .


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 25, 2020)

sleaterkinney said:


> Of course he will back the deal and let the tories own the mess that follows, he's been open about that for a long while .


Her majesty's loyal opposition


----------



## steveseagull (Nov 25, 2020)

sleaterkinney said:


> Of course he will back the deal and let the tories own the mess that follows, he's been open about that for a long while .



He is going to own a fair bit of the mess himself considering his stupid Brexit position when he was the shambolic Shadow Brexit Secretary.


----------



## steveseagull (Nov 25, 2020)

This might be time to tell the country that it is a bad deal and vote against it, instead of being complicit in a Tory Brexit but that would involve having some balls and competence and having some free time from waging factional war on anyone left of the Board of Deputies.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 25, 2020)

sleaterkinney said:


> Of course he will back the deal and let the tories own the mess that follows, he's been open about that for a long while .


Yeh but he'll back the deal, which everyone knows is worse than the deal weak and wobbly Theresa may had


----------



## steveseagull (Nov 25, 2020)

From the silence of the abusive FBPE cult, it has become quite clear that their main aim was to oppose Corbyn and not Brexit.

I may be wrong, maybe we will see some FBPE heads explode in the coming days. But I would be surprised.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 25, 2020)

steveseagull said:


> From the silence of the abusive FBPE cult, it has become quite clear that their main aim was to oppose Corbyn and not Brexit.
> 
> I maybe wrong, maybe we will see some FBPE heads explode in the coming days. But I would be surprised.


Snipers are on roof tops as we type


----------



## steveseagull (Nov 25, 2020)

Perhaps Starmer will end up sending an aggressive letter to the FBPE types threatening them into silence, like he did with Young Labour. 

At that point, there cannot be many demographics he has not thoroughly pissed off.


----------



## killer b (Nov 25, 2020)

The FBPE guys are operating in a totally different political landscape now though tbf - last year there was a minority government and a vague chance - though slim - of somehow reversing Brexit by putting pressure on Labour. That isn't there anymore.


----------



## ska invita (Nov 25, 2020)

steveseagull said:


> From the silence of the abusive FBPE cult, it has become quite clear that their main aim was to oppose Corbyn and not Brexit.


I think that's a mischaracterisation - they really did and still do hate Brexit, though because they didn't respect the referendum (which was a truly shit unspecific referendum tbf) nothing but outright second-referendumism-with-a-view-to-stay-in was good enough for them, hence anti-Corbyn sentiment. With Brexit about to happen any day now theres not much to oppose. There's bound to be a lot of complaining in the new year...and ever more.
I expect the rejoin brigade will be campaigning by the next election and Europe will be a divisive issue for Labour, as it was for the Tories, for years to come.


----------



## steveseagull (Nov 25, 2020)

killer b said:


> The FBPE guys are operating in a totally different political landscape now though tbf - last year there was a minority government and a vague chance - though slim - of somehow reversing Brexit by putting pressure on Labour. That isn't there anymore.



This is not the sort of wishy washy commitment to the cause I expect from them.


----------



## killer b (Nov 25, 2020)

They're all applying their energies to more achievable things now: gardening, learning how to play the piano, driving the left out of the Labour Party. That kind of thing.


----------



## Knotted (Nov 25, 2020)

OK I'm confused.

I had to Google FBPE. Full Brexit Prompt Exit Twitter thing? Surely they're for Brexit not against unless it's some strange irony that I don't understand.


----------



## strung out (Nov 25, 2020)

For Britain, Pro Europe 🇬🇧🇪🇺🔶

Edited to add emoticons


----------



## frogwoman (Nov 25, 2020)

Isn't it Follow Back Pro EU


----------



## Knotted (Nov 25, 2020)

OK got it. Well that's a guessable acronym!


----------



## steveseagull (Nov 25, 2020)

For Britain are a far right outfit whose voters are who Sir Keith is trying to court at the moment


----------



## strung out (Nov 25, 2020)

frogwoman said:


> Isn't it Follow Back Pro EU


Ah yeah, that could be it too actually.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 25, 2020)

Fuck Brexit paedo embeciles is the esoteric meaning of course.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 25, 2020)

Knotted said:


> OK I'm confused.
> 
> I had to Google FBPE. Full Brexit Prompt Exit Twitter thing? Surely they're for Brexit not against unless it's some strange irony that I don't understand.


Fuck Boris, Philip, and England


----------



## steveseagull (Nov 25, 2020)

On another note, the very fact that  journalists have not door stepped Theresa May and cohorts this morning after the damming Windrush EHRC report, there is not wall to wall breathless media coverage and (so far) Sir Keith has so far been silent about it - very much suggests Mr Corbyn was correct and antisemitism coverage has been overblown.


----------



## splonkydoo (Nov 25, 2020)

A complaint from a former Workers Power member and mad Paul Mason contemporary has led to the two expulsions and two suspensions of four EC members of Liverpool CLP.
The substance of the complaint is that they circulated an open letter critical of their local MP.

'

"I am writing to you to register a formal complaint regarding a bulletin I received from the Secretary of Wavertree CLP on 26 May 2020. Specifically I want to complain about a letter that was included in this bulletin to our local MP, Paula Barker, and that was signed by four Executive Committee members, Nina Houghton, Chair, Wavertree CLP, Kevin Bean, Secretary, Wavertree CLP, Helen Dickson, Women’s Officer, Wavertree CLP and Hazuan Hashim, BAME Officer, Wavertree CLP.

The letter is a response to an article Paula published in the Jewish Telegraph. The letter states of Paula that “she failed to clearly and unequivocally defend Wavertree CLP from the slanders thrown at us over the last two years”. This astonishing claim has been circulated to every member of our CLP. It may well be the opinion of the four authors but it has now been published as a fact to our many hundreds of members in a so-called “Members’ Bulletin” by the authors.
Which leads directly to my complaint. The authors of the letter may believe that our MP is now an enemy of Wavertree CLP but by publishing the letter and declaring
war on our MP in a bulletin that has already made it into the public domain, by whatever means, they have brought the entire CLP into disrepute. I believe:
· that it was inappropriate to include such a letter in a members' bulletin, which should be used exclusively to communicate information rather than serve factional
purposes
· that in the light of the restrictions on meetings the decision to publish such a letter ina member’s bulletin without the approval of an appropriate leading body is a
breach of the collective responsibility of the Executive Committee to manage the affairs of the CLP
· that by signing their names to the letter in their official capacity rather than in a personal capacity the authors have misled the membership of the CLP that the letter is
somehow an authoritative representation of the views of the leadership
· that the disclosure of a private letter to an MP by four individuals (purporting falsely to be in their official capacity) without clearly stating that it is an “open
letter” is a breach of confidentiality.
In the light of the above I regard the actions of the above four named people to be unfit to serve on the CLP’s Executive Committee and I request that
action be taken to remove them forthwith."


----------



## Sprocket. (Nov 25, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh he doesn't need to talk to the sun while he has aides to do it for him


Apparently the Sun shines out of his arse.


----------



## steveseagull (Nov 25, 2020)

splonkydoo said:


> A complaint from a former Workers Power member and mad Paul Mason contemporary has led to the two expulsions and two suspensions of four EC members of Liverpool CLP.
> The substance of the complaint is that they circulated an open letter critical of their local MP.
> 
> '
> ...



hang on, I thought it was the left who were Stalinists


----------



## sleaterkinney (Nov 25, 2020)

steveseagull said:


> This might be time to tell the country that it is a bad deal and vote against it, instead of being complicit in a Tory Brexit but that would involve having some balls and competence and having some free time from waging factional war on anyone left of the Board of Deputies.


It will be a bad deal, and should have been opposed all along, but it’s too late now. 
Some balls and competence opposing a Tory brexit, what did you make of Corbyn and the lexiteers then?


----------



## sleaterkinney (Nov 25, 2020)

Aren’t Wavertree CLP the ones who harassed Luciana Berger out and whose chair appeared on David Ickes show denouncing the Rothschilds?


----------



## belboid (Nov 25, 2020)

Luciana Berger was (and is) right wing shite, did her.  Tho the chair is a complete dick too.  

The above mentioned Kevin Bean (who I knew years back when he was a milly) was expelled not for the letter, but for speaking twice at a cpgb event.  Sadly for him, the useless buffoons in the cpgb put one video up under his real name and one under his party name, thus exposing him.


----------



## killer b (Nov 25, 2020)

sleaterkinney said:


> Aren’t Wavertree CLP the ones who harassed Luciana Berger out and whose chair appeared on David Ickes show denouncing the Rothschilds?


They passed a motion of no confidence in their MP Luciana Berger and there was certainly allegations of harassment but I'm not sure where the complaint finished up. The then chair appeared on the Richie Allen show (a different conspiracy theorist to Icke), but doesn't seem to have denounced the Rothschilds while on it. So apart from most of the detail being wrong, that is the CLP you're thinking of, yeah.


----------



## Knotted (Nov 25, 2020)

That will be Luciana Berger the MD for Edelman.


----------



## belboid (Nov 25, 2020)

killer b said:


> They passed a motion of no confidence in their MP Luciana Berger and there was certainly allegations of harassment but I'm not sure where the complaint finished up. The then chair appeared on the Richie Allen show (a different conspiracy theorist to Icke), but doesn't seem to have denounced the Rothschilds while on it. So apart from most of the detail being wrong, that is the CLP you're thinking of, yeah.


He did come out with the Rothschild bullshit on at least one of those shows


----------



## steveseagull (Nov 25, 2020)

sleaterkinney said:


> It will be a bad deal, and should have been opposed all along, but it’s too late now.
> Some balls and competence opposing a Tory brexit, what did you make of Corbyn and the lexiteers then?



With Corbyn your would have got a sensible exit. You're welcome.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Nov 25, 2020)

killer b said:


> They passed a motion of no confidence in their MP Luciana Berger and there was certainly allegations of harassment but I'm not sure where the complaint finished up. The then chair appeared on the Richie Allen show (a different conspiracy theorist to Icke), but doesn't seem to have denounced the Rothschilds while on it. So apart from most of the detail being wrong, that is the CLP you're thinking of, yeah.


I’m not sure where the complaint finished up either, he certainly seems to have been around to choose her successor, along with  Margaret Tyson in the front row who said Ms Berger supported the “Zionist Israeli government” whose “Nazi masters taught them well” 

I did get my conspiracy theorists mixed up, it was the Richie Allen show broadcast by David Icke, thanks for that clarification. He did denounce the Rothschilds.


----------



## killer b (Nov 25, 2020)

I don't know why I'm arguing with you about it tbf, I hate these people.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 25, 2020)

killer b said:


> No, its pretty usual.


Quite unusual when the CLP has done nothing wrong, tbh.


----------



## ska invita (Nov 25, 2020)

steveseagull said:


> With Corbyn your would have got a sensible exit. You're welcome.


In that alternate world it wouldve been a Norwayesque deal: the Brexiters wouldve never let it lie, the Remainers wouldve never let it lie - full on Brexit arguing into infinity - I actually prefer a 100% Tory owned Hard/Crash Out Brexit with Labour internal civil war for a few years outcome


----------



## steveseagull (Nov 25, 2020)

Oh dear. How did we get such a team of amateurs in charge of the Labour Party. I have a theory that Starmer is been bullied by the big business he is in hock to and the Board of Deputies which is why he keeps getting himself in these messes. He has been instructed to stamp out the left so no one else gets any funny ideas about social democracy. when he fails he will be cast aside.


----------



## steveseagull (Nov 25, 2020)

One interesting thing, there is no reason why Starmer would not release the records... unless he was guilty of lying to the Jewish community orgs, and if that is the case, he is history.

This could well be yet another case of centrists underestimating Corbyn and getting egg on their faces.


----------



## belboid (Nov 25, 2020)

I gather he made the deal with the scg (& mccluskey) but failed to speak to hodge or the like and was caught unawares.  If so he’s a fucking idiot.


----------



## steveseagull (Nov 25, 2020)

Over the last ten days I have come to the conclusion that he definitely is an idiot. I was unsure before due to his QC title.


----------



## killer b (Nov 25, 2020)

He isn't an idiot, he's just trying to do something that's impossible.


----------



## Knotted (Nov 25, 2020)

He's trying to solve a political problem without politicking. I don't know if he's stupid as such, but he _is _inexperienced.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 25, 2020)

killer b said:


> He isn't an idiot, he's just trying to do something that's impossible.


That looks like one definition of idiocy to me.


----------



## splonkydoo (Nov 25, 2020)

How can someone so inept get to such a senior position. It baffles. Good to see a few comments and clarifications on the Wavetree CLP btw, wasn't aware of some of that stuff.


----------



## steveseagull (Nov 25, 2020)

It's not impossible. The solution would be to tell the Board of Deputies, Hodge and any other bad faith trolls to fuck off, reinstate the whip to Corbyn and fully implement the recommendations from the EHRC report... then something radical... taking on the Tories.


----------



## splonkydoo (Nov 25, 2020)

killer b said:


> They passed a motion of no confidence in their MP Luciana Berger and there was certainly allegations of harassment but I'm not sure where the complaint finished up. The then chair appeared on the Richie Allen show (a different conspiracy theorist to Icke), but doesn't seem to have denounced the Rothschilds while on it. So apart from most of the detail being wrong, that is the CLP you're thinking of, yeah.



I had thankfully forgotten that this Richie Allen buffoon exists. Is he based in the UK or Ireland? Also I can't seem to find anything about the show referenced if you can point me to it anywhere.


----------



## splonkydoo (Nov 25, 2020)

steveseagull said:


> It's not impossible. The solution would be to tell the Board of Deputies, Hodge and any other bad faith trolls to fuck off, reinstate the whip to Corbyn and fully implement the recommendations from the EHRC report... then something radical... taking on the Tories.



That would entail some independent thought and not being a coward. Impossible.


----------



## steveseagull (Nov 25, 2020)

In his favour, he did give Johnson a decent slaughtering at PMQs today so perhaps he should stick to that.


----------



## killer b (Nov 25, 2020)

splonkydoo said:


> I had thankfully forgotten that this Richie Allen buffoon exists. Is he based in the UK or Ireland? Also I can't seem to find anything about the show referenced if you can point me to it anywhere.


I've no idea, and I don't really care so you'll have to dig yourself sorry.


----------



## killer b (Nov 25, 2020)

steveseagull said:


> It's not impossible. The solution would be to tell the Board of Deputies, Hodge and any other bad faith trolls to fuck off, reinstate the whip to Corbyn and fully implement the recommendations from the EHRC report... then something radical... taking on the Tories.


lol.


----------



## splonkydoo (Nov 25, 2020)

Also it's about the effort already expended on trying to get the tabloids and business onside. Probably doesn't want to row back on his efforts with that now, but he just wasn't expecting to get ratfucked by Hodge et al.


----------



## steveseagull (Nov 25, 2020)

So is the panel appointed by the General Secretary racist?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 25, 2020)

steveseagull said:


> It's not impossible. The solution would be to tell the Board of Deputies, Hodge and any other bad faith trolls to fuck off, reinstate the whip to Corbyn and fully implement the recommendations from the EHRC report... then something radical... taking on the Tories.



Bad faith got Starmer where he is. Maybe he really thinks he can now somehow clean off the muck he's crawled through, but that's not how it works.


----------



## belboid (Nov 25, 2020)

killer b said:


> He isn't an idiot, he's just trying to do something that's impossible.


It’s certainly impossible when you forget to invite one side to the peace talks


----------



## Sprocket. (Nov 25, 2020)

Can I just say, Keir’s  looking tired.


----------



## steveseagull (Nov 25, 2020)

Sprocket. said:


> Can I just say, Keir’s  looking tired.



He has probably had a fair few sleepless nights if he has indeed been telling porkies to the Board of Deputies.


----------



## ska invita (Nov 25, 2020)

And this is from Labours latest video supposedly







Too much time directing prosecutions


----------



## steveseagull (Nov 25, 2020)

It is the dreadful design as well. As about as inspiring as cleaning puppy shit up


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 25, 2020)

ska invita said:


> View attachment 240425
> 
> And this is from Labours latest video supposedly
> 
> ...


They means normal people are traitors. This is 25k awful.


----------



## steveseagull (Nov 25, 2020)

I do think that what Keith and his team have got themselves into might end up being a bit much for them.

The Labour right usually get their way by bullying and for a socialist MP to stand up to them and send his legal team in armed with receipts, has left them not knowing what to do or how to deal with it. Especially as he has a large amount of support both inside and the exiled outside of the party.

This is what the party needs. Everything out in the open and before a court, a good cleansing of the worst of the malcontents and then get back to opposing the Tories.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 25, 2020)

Tell me, what are you going to do with the labour-right members who have been the base of the party for 100 years and how are the courts going to help your mad plan?


----------



## killer b (Nov 25, 2020)

steveseagull said:


> I do think that what Keith and his team have got themselves into might end up being a bit much for them.
> 
> The Labour right usually get their way by bullying and for a socialist MP to stand up to them and send his legal team in armed with receipts, has left them not knowing what to do or how to deal with it. Especially as he has a large amount of support both inside and the exiled outside of the party.
> 
> This is what the party needs. Everything out in the open and before a court, a good cleansing of the worst of the malcontents and then get back to opposing the Tories.


lol


----------



## steveseagull (Nov 25, 2020)

butchersapron said:


> Tell me, what are you going to do with the labour-right members who have been the base of the party for 100 years and how are the courts going to help your mad plan?




Not a lot if they stop attacking the left but there is little chance of that. If Corbyn has the receipts and Starmer has lied to the Board of Deputy trolls, no one will have to do anything with them.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 25, 2020)

steveseagull said:


> Not a lot if they stop attacking the left but there is little chance of that. If Corbyn has the receipts and Starmer has lied to the Board of Deputy trolls, no one will have to do anything with them.


So you'll be in a party with them? Despite them being dirty far righters? You'll actually be a member of a far right party - or, at least a party led by the far right.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 25, 2020)

I wonder how  a socialist ended up doing that?


----------



## Santino (Nov 25, 2020)

steveseagull said:


> Not a lot if they stop attacking the left but there is little chance of that. If Corbyn has the receipts and Starmer has lied to the Board of Deputy trolls, no one will have to do anything with them.


Do you want to mention the Board of Deputies again?


----------



## steveseagull (Nov 25, 2020)

Santino said:


> Do you want to mention the Board of Deputies again?



I can do. I would sack the lot of them.


----------



## strung out (Nov 25, 2020)

Santino said:


> Do you want to mention the Board of Deputies again?


Bit of a sad indictment of them that they've been deputies for this long and never progressed to being heads of anything


----------



## Santino (Nov 25, 2020)

strung out said:


> Bit of a sad indictment of them that they've been deputies for this long and never progressed to being heads of anything


Same with me when I was assistant to Princess Anne. Packed it in when I realised they were never going to actually make me Princess Anne.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Nov 25, 2020)

Santino said:


> Same with me when I was assistant to Princess Anne. Packed it in when I realised they were never going to actually make me Princess Anne.


Narrow escape there.


----------



## Almor (Nov 26, 2020)

strung out said:


> Bit of a sad indictment of them that they've been deputies for this long and never progressed to being heads of anything



Presumably that's why they're bored?


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Nov 26, 2020)

frogwoman said:


> Isn't it Follow Back Pro EU



#FBPE is second only to the Union Jack in marking a twitter account out as being run by an absolute cunt.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 26, 2020)

Jeff Robinson said:


> #FBPE is second only to the Union Jack in marking a twitter account out as being run by an absolute cunt.


So above a swastika or an England flag


----------



## killer b (Nov 26, 2020)

I've never seen a swastika in someone's twitter handle, suspect it's probably banned.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 26, 2020)

Jeff Robinson said:


> #FBPE is second only to the Union Jack in marking a twitter account out as being run by an absolute cunt.



Most FBPE cunts have the EU flag in their bios. Imagine being the type of cunt who draws their identity from a neo-liberal trading arrangement.


----------



## steveseagull (Nov 26, 2020)

Latest letter to CLP's from Sir Keith Stalin's totalitarian regime telling them what they are allowed to and not allowed to discuss.

We tut tut at stuff like this happening in Russia or China. Remember when the 'centrists' were telling us this sort of stuff would happen under Jeremy Corbyn?

Straight out of the Trump playbook. Accuse someone else of doing bad stuff you would like to do yourself.


----------



## ska invita (Nov 26, 2020)

Its an uncanny coincidence that within such a short time as leader the QC & Director of Prosecutions has some nice court cases to fight, and a rule book to try and twist and misinterpret. Must be second nature


----------



## andysays (Nov 26, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Its an uncanny coincidence that within such a short time as leader the QC & Director of Prosecutions has some nice court cases to fight, and a rule book to try and twist and misinterpret. Must be second nature


As Trotsky once said, "To a man with a hammer, everything looks like a nail"


----------



## Raheem (Nov 26, 2020)

killer b said:


> I've never seen a swastika in someone's twitter handle, suspect it's probably banned.


Twitter's so fucking woke.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Nov 26, 2020)

andysays said:


> As Trotsky once said, "To a man with a hammer, everything looks like a nail"



I believe the actual phrase was "To a man with an icepick everyone looks like a fascist wrecker"


----------



## andysays (Nov 26, 2020)

Jeff Robinson said:


> I believe the actual phrase was "To a man with an icepick everyone looks like a fascist wrecker"


One for the "Famous Last Words" thread...


----------



## splonkydoo (Nov 30, 2020)

Kieth Starmzer's time is up

"https://t.co/dcW8UeN7B0"


----------



## Shechemite (Nov 30, 2020)

*keith


----------



## steveseagull (Nov 30, 2020)

This is peak 2020. The EHRC report that Keith and his henchmen are currently shitting all over was partly put together by an Incel. 









						EHRC board member under scrutiny over social media use
					

Alasdair Henderson liked post describing words misogynist and homophobe as ‘highly ideological propaganda terms’




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Dec 1, 2020)

Corbyn attempted to transform Labour into a tribune for the oppressed. The revisionist Starmer clique are more concerned to appeal to the barbarian daily mail nationalist cunts who voted for the Tory regime.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 1, 2020)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Corbyn attempted to transform Labour into a tribune for the oppressed. The revisionist Starmer clique are more concerned to appeal to the barbarian daily mail nationalist cunts who voted for the Tory regime.



what was the deleted tweet there?
i thought it was interesting to see Clive Lewis retweet that tweet - only in as much as Im starting to get a vibe that he might run for leader (again) next time theres a job going


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Dec 1, 2020)

ska invita said:


> what was the deleted tweet there?
> i thought it was interesting to see Clive Lewis retweet that tweet - only in as much as Im starting to get a vibe that he might run for leader (again) next time theres a job going



Yes, it was David Osland. He was criticising Starmer for not issuing a statement on the Tory regime's decision not to order a public inquiry into the murder of Pat Finucane. Labour's Northern Ireland Secretary has put out a statement so perhaps he decided to delete the tweet in light of that.


----------



## steveseagull (Dec 1, 2020)

Christ I wake up every morning wondering how he can take Labour down to a new level of awfulness.









						Keir Starmer urged to return donations from 'Islamophobic' property developer
					

Muslim groups point to ‘deeply disturbing’ online comments by Labour supporter David Abrahams




					www.theguardian.com
				




He has been taking money off an islamophobe and anti-Semite. David Abrahams stopped donating to labour in 2016, presumably because Corbyn was not racist enough for his liking.


----------



## steveseagull (Dec 1, 2020)

Which asks the question, which other appalling racists  has he been taking money from?

This does explain his silence over the report on Islamophobia though, broken only when he found out his racist Blairite mate was about to be outed.

How can any Muslim feel safe in Starmer's Labour Party?


----------



## steveseagull (Dec 2, 2020)

Fucking hell. He also had a bogus wife





__





						'Bogus wife' reveals strange world of David Abrahams
					

The woman who acted as the "bogus wife" of millionaire property developer David Abrahams has revealed some of the details of his eccentric lifestyle.




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## steveseagull (Dec 2, 2020)

"Ms Bailey told the Mail on Sunday that Mr Abrahams revealed he had spent three days with his dead father propped up in bed, and that he had sent a sample of her handwriting to a graphologist. She said she was "stunned" when she first visited Mr Abrahams' home in Gosforth Park, Newcastle.

She told the newspaper: "I could see this was the home of an eccentric. There was a massive 7ft-statue of Elvis in pink. There was a huge painting of his mother playing a violin, and a lifesize photo of his father, Bennie, in full mayoral outfit"

Sir Keir's mate.


----------



## krtek a houby (Dec 2, 2020)

Raheem said:


> Twitter's so fucking woke.



This is the same Twitter that's been a platform for millions of bigots, bastards and birthers and conspiracy theories etc?


----------



## Raheem (Dec 2, 2020)

krtek a houby said:


> This is the same Twitter that's been a platform for millions of bigots, bastards and birthers and conspiracy theories etc?


You might be missing the point of my comment, if it had one.


----------



## krtek a houby (Dec 2, 2020)

Raheem said:


> You might be missing the point of my comment, if it had one.



Possibly!


----------



## cantsin (Dec 2, 2020)

'Sir Keith ' = ' racial slur ' is up there with 'Trump taking big $$$ to pardon Joey Exotique , before they both sign up for Dancing with the Stars' as my fave story of the day so far... #2020WeLuv


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Dec 2, 2020)

cantsin said:


> 'Sir Keith ' = ' racial slur ' is up there with 'Trump taking big $$$ to pardon Joey Exotique , before they both sign up for Dancing with the Stars' as my fave story of the day so far... #2020WeLuv




How exciting to discover a new intersection of discrimination - posh white blokes who own immense social, economic and cultural capital.

Plus it’s Kieth not Keith


----------



## killer b (Dec 2, 2020)

It's pretty silly, but who is that guy? He's just some no-mark dick on twitter with 93 followers and a bad opinion. Who gives a fuck?


----------



## ska invita (Dec 2, 2020)

who are any of us


----------



## killer b (Dec 2, 2020)

ska invita said:


> who are any of us


the philosophy & theory forum is that way >>>


----------



## cantsin (Dec 2, 2020)

killer b said:


> It's pretty silly, but who is that guy? He's just some no-mark dick on twitter with 93 followers and a bad opinion. Who gives a fuck?



everyone gives a fuck, this is v important stuff, that's why it was coupled with the burning issue of Trump , Joey Exotique and Dancing with the Stars


----------



## steveseagull (Dec 2, 2020)

New letter to our racist leader Sir Keith from eight affiliated unions, now including Community.









						Exclusive: Eight affiliated trade unions urge Labour to resolve Corbyn whip row – LabourList
					

The leaders of eight trade unions affiliated to the Labour Party have signed a joint statement expressing "concerns" over the unresolved situation regarding Jeremy Corbyn's…




					labourlist.org


----------



## steveseagull (Dec 3, 2020)

Two prominent Jewish members suspended today.

Naomi Wimborne-Idrissi, the founder of Jewish Voice for Labour and renowned mathematician and socialist Moshi Machover.

All those that have being saying that Labour was not a safe place for Jews under Corbyn need to have a long hard look at themselves (if of course they are not bad faith actors).


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 3, 2020)

Fucking  renowned mathematicians. Sick of 'em.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 3, 2020)

steveseagull said:


> Two prominent Jewish members suspended today.
> 
> Naomi Wimborne-Idrissi, the founder of Jewish Voice for Labour and renowned mathematician and socialist Moshi Machover.
> 
> All those that have being saying that Labour was not a safe place for Jews under Corbyn need to have a long hard look at themselves (if of course they are not bad faith actors).


Steve, are you a labour party member?


----------



## Santino (Dec 3, 2020)

ska invita said:


> who are any of us


You are Lisa Simpson.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Dec 3, 2020)

steveseagull said:


> It's not impossible. The solution would be to tell the Board of Deputies, Hodge and any other bad faith trolls to fuck off, reinstate the whip to Corbyn and fully implement the recommendations from the EHRC report... then something radical... taking on the Tories.



And you wonder why the Labour party is perceived as having a problem with Jews?

That comment is borderline antisemitic.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Dec 3, 2020)

steveseagull said:


> Two prominent Jewish members suspended today.
> 
> Naomi Wimborne-Idrissi, the founder of Jewish Voice for Labour and renowned mathematician and socialist Moshi Machover.
> 
> All those that have being saying that Labour was not a safe place for Jews under Corbyn need to have a long hard look at themselves (if of course they are not bad faith actors).



Another borderline antisemitic comment.


----------



## killer b (Dec 3, 2020)

Sasaferrato said:


> Would that be the final solution?


jesus christ man.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Dec 3, 2020)

killer b said:


> jesus christ man.



Given the tenor of the posters remarks...

You are right, I will remove it.


----------



## rummo (Dec 3, 2020)

Sasaferrato said:


> Another borderline antisemitic comment.




That border seems to be getting pushed further and further every day, more and more territory being annexed and occupied.

It's almost like a metaphor.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Dec 3, 2020)

rummo said:


> That border seems to be getting pushed further and further every day, more and more territory being annexed and occupied.
> 
> It's almost like a metaphor.



Would you say the same if the comments had been made about black people?

I'm Jewish by blood.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 3, 2020)

killer b said:


> jesus christ man.


Saviour. Not m,an.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 3, 2020)

Sasaferrato said:


> Another borderline antisemitic comment.



I think you need to spell out what was borderline antisemitic about the post you quoted.

Jewish people are being suspended from the Labour party for antisemitism. This is far from a clear cut situation. People are confused by this.

Telling them you are Jewish by blood doesn't explain your point.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Dec 3, 2020)

Rutita1 said:


> I think you need to spell out what was borderline antisemitic about the post you quoted.
> 
> Jewish people are being suspended from the Labour party for antisemitism. This is far from a clear cut situation. People are confused by this.
> 
> Telling them you are Jewish by blood doesn't explain your point.


Look at the highlighted text. The comment about Margaret Hodge is dreadful.

As for restoring the whip to Corbyn, no, not until there is an apology.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 3, 2020)

Sasaferrato said:


> Look at the highlighted text. The comment about Margaret Hodge is dreadful.
> 
> As for restoring the whip to Corbyn, no, not until there is an apology.


what, margaret hodge the paedos' friend?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 3, 2020)

cantsin said:


> everyone gives a fuck, this is v important stuff, that's why it was coupled with the burning issue of Trump , Joey Exotique and Dancing with the Stars


no relation of joe exotic i suppose


----------



## Sasaferrato (Dec 3, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> what, margaret hodge the paedos' friend?


No, that was Harman.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 3, 2020)

Sasaferrato said:


> No, that was Harman.





Sasaferrato said:


> Look at the highlighted text. The comment about Margaret Hodge is dreadful.
> 
> As for restoring the whip to Corbyn, no, not until there is an apology.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Dec 3, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


>


Harman represented the PIE back in the day.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 3, 2020)

Sasaferrato said:


> Harman represented the PIE back in the day.


No.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 3, 2020)

Sasaferrato said:


> Harman represented the PIE back in the day.








						Victims of child abuse say Hodge did not listen to paedophile claims
					

When Margaret Hodge was appointed to the newly created post of minister for Children just five months ago, she told friends that at last she had her dream job.




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## killer b (Dec 3, 2020)

Sasaferrato I think if you're going to make accusations of racism, you really need to be explicit about why you think the two posts in question are racist. 

FWIW: I think it's probably worth steveseagull considering why, of the many MPs & organisations calling for Corbyn to be booted out of the party, the two that came to mind are both jewish - there are plenty of non-jews calling for the same. But even that's pretty thin by itself... and beyond that, there's literally nothing there in either post that I can see that could possibly be considered antisemitic, borderline or otherwise.


----------



## rummo (Dec 3, 2020)

Sasaferrato said:


> Would you say the same if the comments had been made about black people?
> 
> I'm Jewish by blood.




If anti black racism had been exploited in the same way, and for the same purposes, as anti Semitism had, then yes I would have made the same comment.

But it hasn't.


----------



## rummo (Dec 3, 2020)

'It’s difficult to imagine a more blatant, shameful and utterly contemptible piece of two-faced hypocrisy than the behaviour of Margaret Hodge that has been revealed this week. .................

.......Her behaviour drags the entire political system into disrepute, and she would now be well advised to withdraw from public life. Not that she will, if her previous behaviour is anything to go by. Because this is far from the first scandal that Mrs Hodge has been involved in. 

Last April, she apologised for what she called her “shameful naivety” when, as leader of Islington Council, she dismissively brushed aside the victims of paedophiles who preyed on children in council care. One victim, Demetrious Panton, who was abused by the former head of an Islington children’s home in the late 1970s, was dismissed by Mrs Hodge in a letter to the BBC as “extremely disturbed”. 

It was almost beyond parody when she was then appointed Children’s Minister by Tony Blair. Mrs Hodge is not the first and will not be last politician to say one thing and do another. But the sheer grubbiness of her brand of hypocrisy leaves a stench that makes others look almost admirable.'









						Margaret Hodge’s foul hypocrisy just beggars belief
					

It’s impossible to know just how many people will have voted by the time the polls close next Thursday.




					www.express.co.uk


----------



## steveseagull (Dec 3, 2020)

butchersapron said:


> Steve, are you a labour party member?



Yes for the moment, until they come for me for being left wing and Jewish.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 3, 2020)

steveseagull said:


> Yes for the moment, until they come for me for being left wing and Jewish.


How long have you been a hardcore labour member steve?


----------



## steveseagull (Dec 3, 2020)

Sasaferrato said:


> And you wonder why the Labour party is perceived as having a problem with Jews?
> 
> That comment is borderline antisemitic.





Thanks for goysplaining what is and what is not antisemitic and whether or not I should or should not want the BoDs to fuck off.

I really appreciate your time


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 3, 2020)

Sasaferrato said:


> As for restoring the whip to Corbyn, no, not until there is an apology.



How many more apologies does he need to give?


----------



## steveseagull (Dec 3, 2020)

Sasaferrato said:


> Look at the highlighted text. The comment about Margaret Hodge is dreadful.
> 
> As for restoring the whip to Corbyn, no, not until there is an apology.



Apology for what? If he apologises for something you will be demanding another apology. Then another.


----------



## steveseagull (Dec 3, 2020)

Sasaferrato said:


> Look at the highlighted text. The comment about Margaret Hodge is dreadful.
> 
> As for restoring the whip to Corbyn, no, not until there is an apology.



Apologies about my comment directed towards Hodge. Next time I will try and forget she tried to cover up child sex abuse in Islington and then tried to smear one of the victims. Hodge should be rotting in jail, not swanning around as an MP.


----------



## steveseagull (Dec 3, 2020)

Rutita1 said:


> How many more apologies does he need to give?



This is another reason he should not apologise. If he does his detractors will tie him up in an endless cycles of apologies. His apology for getting things wrong in 2019 is good enough for me.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 3, 2020)

Sasaferrato said:


> Look at the highlighted text. The comment about Margaret Hodge is dreadful.





> The solution would be to tell the Board of Deputies, Hodge and any other bad faith trolls to fuck off, reinstate the whip to Corbyn and fully implement the recommendations from the EHRC report... then something radical... taking on the Tories.



The highlighted bit made reference to Hodge and others. It wasn't a comment about her specifically and I am not sure what is 'borderline antisemitic' about it. Can you explain it to me?


----------



## cantsin (Dec 3, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> no relation of joe exotic i suppose



he's old an old acquaintance, will always be Joey to us OG Okey crew


----------



## Sasaferrato (Dec 3, 2020)

Rutita1 said:


> How many more apologies does he need to give?


A genuine one would help.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Dec 3, 2020)

Rutita1 said:


> The highlighted bit made reference to Hodge and others. It wasn't a comment about her specifically and I am not sure what is 'borderline antisemitic' about it. Can you explain it to me?


Sorry, if you cannot see it, you are part of the problem, together with many in the Labour party.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 3, 2020)

Sasaferrato said:


> A genuine one would help.


He has made some already at different points. Were none of them genuine?


----------



## steveseagull (Dec 3, 2020)

Rutita1 said:


> The highlighted bit made reference to Hodge and others. It wasn't a comment about her specifically and I am not sure what is 'borderline antisemitic' about it. Can you explain it to me?



_points at something_.... "look that's antisemitic".... _can never explain why and tells you that you are part of the problem_


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 3, 2020)

Sasaferrato said:


> Sorry, if you cannot see it, you are part of the problem, together with many in the Labour party.



Oh okay then.   

It seems you can't explain it to me tbh Sass. Hodge has all kinds of dodgy shit that she's disliked for. The mere mention of her name is not antisemitic. But I am the problem. Okay.


----------



## steveseagull (Dec 3, 2020)

Rutita1 said:


> He has made some already at different points. Were none of them genuine?



He will apologise
He will be then told it is not genuine enough
There will then be demands made to him to apologise again
(repeat)


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 3, 2020)

He
will
rise
again


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 3, 2020)

steveseagull said:


> He will apologise
> He will be then told it is not genuine enough
> There will then be demands made to him to apologise again
> (repeat)


What would you have him say sorry for btw?


----------



## steveseagull (Dec 3, 2020)

butchersapron said:


> What would you have him say sorry for btw?



I don't think he has anything to apologise for.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 3, 2020)

steveseagull said:


> I don't think he has anything to apologise for.


So he's a liar then?


----------



## steveseagull (Dec 3, 2020)

butchersapron said:


> So he's a liar then?



Who is?


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 3, 2020)

steveseagull said:


> Who is?


Corbyn.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 3, 2020)

It's not because you're left wing that repels people btw.


----------



## steveseagull (Dec 3, 2020)

butchersapron said:


> Corbyn.




No idea. Can't think of any major lies off the top of my head, though I doubt anyone has got to his age without telling a few porkies. Show me a man who claims he has never lied and I will show you a liar.


----------



## steveseagull (Dec 3, 2020)

butchersapron said:


> It's not because you're left wing that repels people btw.




Oh! lol. Care to enlighten me?


----------



## Sasaferrato (Dec 3, 2020)

Rutita1 said:


> Oh okay then.
> 
> It seems you can't explain it to me tbh Sass. Hodge has all kinds of dodgy shit that she's disliked for. The mere mention of her name is not antisemitic. But I am the problem. Okay.



OK.

Labour has a problem with antisemitism, as evidenced by the enquiry.

Posters on here seem to think that this isn't true, but it is something whipped up the Jewish lobby.

Margaret Hodge is a Jewish MP who feels correctly, that her party hasn't handled things well, again correctly.

So what is the response on here? That Mrs Hodge has justified concerns?

No, the response is an ad hom attack on Mrs Hodge.

I'm not familiar with her time in Islington, but do not doubt that what has been said is correct.

I do ask though what that has to do withe the subject under discussion, the antisemitism, that infests the Labour party?

There are a number of posters who should be utterly ashamed of themselves.

The thread is now on ignore, as it6 is pointless trying to argue with bigots.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 3, 2020)

steveseagull said:


> Oh! lol. Care to enlighten me?


It's because you're just horrible...appalling.

The left can win, has won, against people like you.


----------



## rummo (Dec 3, 2020)

'Labour has a problem with antisemitism,.............  the antisemitism, that infests the Labour party?'


###

Gosh, that escalated quickly. 'A problem' to 'infested with' in the space of a few lines.

And anyone who challenges you is a bigot?


----------



## steveseagull (Dec 3, 2020)

butchersapron said:


> It's because you're just horrible...appalling.
> 
> The left can win, has won, against people like you.




"People like me?" Oh mate! LOL!


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 3, 2020)

Join labour. The path to victory.

For a bit.

'mate'.


----------



## steveseagull (Dec 3, 2020)

butchersapron said:


> Join labour. The path to victory.
> 
> For a bit.
> 
> 'mate'.




I have no idea what you are on about but I have a suspicion that the "people like me" reference was some pretty low level dog whistling.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 3, 2020)

steveseagull said:


> I have no idea what you are on about but I have a suspicion that the "people like me" reference was some pretty low level dog whistling.


Go for it


----------



## steveseagull (Dec 3, 2020)

The only people who have ever referred to me as 'people like you' are:



Spoiler



antisemites


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 3, 2020)

Go for it


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 3, 2020)

Sasaferrato said:


> OK.
> 
> Labour has a problem with antisemitism, as evidenced by the enquiry.
> 
> ...



We very nearly got to discuss this...

Quite tickled by you calling me a bigot though Sass. Well done.


----------



## steveseagull (Dec 3, 2020)

There is some proper attention seeking going on in this thread.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 3, 2020)

steveseagull said:


> There is some proper attention seeking going on in this thread.


This is what winning looks like.


----------



## steveseagull (Dec 3, 2020)

butchersapron said:


> This is what winning looks like.



It is certainly not making coded anti-Semitic references to other posters on this thread. Sort yourself out.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Dec 3, 2020)

Rutita1 said:


> We very nearly got to discuss this...
> 
> Quite tickled by you calling me a bigot though Sass. Well done.


He's put you on ignore, I'm afraid, so he may not get the message. Which is what happens when people like you try and discuss things with people like him, which is just typical of people like both of you, I suspect.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 3, 2020)

steveseagull said:


> It is certainly not making coded anti-Semitic references to other posters on this thread. Sort yourself out.



This just isn't going to work. I fully support your effort and want to see more.


----------



## splonkydoo (Dec 3, 2020)

Was going to say it's a bit early for the booze but I just checked the time.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 3, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> He's put you on ignore, I'm afraid, so he may not get the message. Which is what happens when people like you try and discuss things with people like him, which is just typical of people like both of you, I suspect.


Anti-semitism.


----------



## steveseagull (Dec 3, 2020)

butchersapron said:


> This just isn't going to work. I fully support your effort and want to see more.



Well here is your chance to explain what "people like you" means as you have been skirting round it somewhat.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 3, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> He's put you on ignore, I'm afraid, so he may not get the message. Which is what happens when people like you try and discuss things with people like him, which is just typical of people like both of you, I suspect.


I was imagining that he was still reading actually as he often does after he says he's put a thread on ignore. People like us both.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 3, 2020)

steveseagull said:


> Well here is your chance to explain what "people like you" means as you have been skirting round it somewhat.


jews and that. you know


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 3, 2020)

killer b said:


> jesus christ man.



He was another one of them. Always causing problems.


----------



## steveseagull (Dec 3, 2020)

butchersapron said:


> jews and that. you know



aye....


----------



## killer b (Dec 3, 2020)

sounds like you've all had a nice evening.


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 3, 2020)

Could top it off by buying some slave-labour made authentic Judaica


----------



## cantsin (Dec 3, 2020)

Sasaferrato said:


> OK.
> 
> Labour has a problem with antisemitism, as evidenced by the enquiry.
> 
> ...



yr valuable insights are going to be much missed, am sure


----------



## two sheds (Dec 3, 2020)

Sasaferrato said: 


           Would that be the final solution?        



Sasaferrato said:


> Given the tenor of the posters remarks...
> 
> You are right, I will remove it.





Sasaferrato said:


> A genuine one would help.



How about a genuine apology for what you posted? Not just "I will remove it" - no apology there was there?


----------



## steveseagull (Dec 4, 2020)

Just to reiterate, fuck the racist trolls of the Board of Deputies


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 4, 2020)

steveseagull said:


> I have no idea what you are on about but I have a suspicion that the "people like me" reference was some pretty low level dog whistling.



We're all 'people like you' to people like him.


----------



## steveseagull (Dec 5, 2020)

Starmer is self isolating for the next two weeks but the big question is, is anyone going to notice?

On the bright side for him, he is not going to have to be in the chamber when he takes responsibility for a dire Tory Brexit.


----------



## steveseagull (Dec 5, 2020)

This is batshit. This is bordering on fascism.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Dec 5, 2020)




----------



## steveseagull (Dec 5, 2020)

Keith's approval ratings are tanking. He was plus 17 not long ago.


----------



## killer b (Dec 5, 2020)

Machover has published his suspension letter (with some redactions) so you can read it yourself. 



			https://www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org.uk/app/uploads/2020/12/MACHOVER-Moshe-L1627330-20201130-SUSP-Red-1.pdf


----------



## steveseagull (Dec 5, 2020)

It's bonkers. Absolutely bonkers.


----------



## gosub (Dec 6, 2020)

Keith is self isolating until 16/12


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Dec 6, 2020)

the political commentator gary neville has offered an opinion



> He told Sky News: “When you’re elected and you’re in that seat in Westminster, you take a position - you don't abstain.
> 
> "You take part in the match - you're the opposition, you're the opposition, don't sit in the stand.



from daily mirror article


----------



## two sheds (Dec 6, 2020)

The Gary Neville who is a coach and so sits in the stand?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 6, 2020)

That is a coach's job. A LOTO's job isn't to do that.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 6, 2020)

That'll teach me to read the article before commenting


----------



## sleaterkinney (Dec 6, 2020)

two sheds said:


> The Gary Neville who is a coach and so sits in the stand?


No, he’s just a commentator.


----------



## steveseagull (Dec 7, 2020)

Keith's top priority is defence spending. Not looking after the citizens of our country during a pandemic, defence spending.


----------



## cantsin (Dec 7, 2020)

steveseagull said:


> Keith's top priority is defence spending. Not looking after the citizens of our country during a pandemic, defence spending.




absolute joke


----------



## andysays (Dec 7, 2020)

I'm sure Gary Neville would have something to say about leaving a gaping hole in our defences


----------



## belboid (Dec 7, 2020)

andysays said:


> I'm sure Gary Neville would have something to say about leaving a gaping hole in our defences


He’d get his brother in to sort it out


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Dec 12, 2020)

Bunch of nationalist tosh from the revisionist  Starmer 









						Boris Johnson accused of 'failure of statecraft' over looming no-deal Brexit
					

EXCLUSIVE Labour leader Keir Starmer said Mr Johnson would 'fail on the only promise he has made to the British people' if he can't get an agreement with Brussels




					www.mirror.co.uk


----------



## steveseagull (Dec 12, 2020)

That is so bland I want to puke. Labour Party. Back to being a controlled opposition.


----------



## agricola (Dec 12, 2020)

steveseagull said:


> Keith's top priority is defence spending. Not looking after the citizens of our country during a pandemic, defence spending.




TBF Corbyn should have done some of this - not so much bland discussions of defence spending not being high enough, but highlighting what the 2010-2015 and its successor government actually did to the military and its personnel. 

Not doing it gave them a free run in an area that they really should have been crucified over, the sacking of people just to save paying them the pension they'd earned especially.  There were people who were made redunant whilst they were overseas, including in Afghanistan.  The firm that runs the (privatized) defence housing rips service personnel off, and is next year going to rip them off even more.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 13, 2020)

steveseagull said:


> That is so bland I want to puke. Labour Party. Back to being a controlled opposition.



Mild opposition to this tory shitshow is tacit support. The terms of reference set by the tories are accepted unquestionably, and any objections are merely technical in nature. So it's a failure of statecraft Johnson is guilty of, not complete moral and political bankruptcy or what is effectively criminal insider trading on behalf of his chums who have gambled on the collapse of the UK economy. Starmer's supposed to be law and order isn't he? The man who put people in jail for years for stealing stuff worth pennies? Why then does he see Johnson's fuckery as a mere failure of management, rather than a deliberate and criminal act of sabotage?


----------



## steveseagull (Dec 14, 2020)

Sir Starmer was on LBC this morning for a Call Keith session with Nick Ferrari. Some white supremacist loon calls up and starts banging on about the replacement conspiracy theory. Does Keith call out white supremacy on a national radio station?  Oh no....

Peak centrism.


----------



## andysays (Dec 14, 2020)

steveseagull said:


> Sir Starmer was on LBC this morning for a Call Keith session with Nick Ferrari. Some white supremacist loon calls up and starts banging on about the replacement conspiracy theory. Does Keith call out white supremacy on a national radio station?  Oh no....
> 
> Peak centrism.


So how did he respond?


----------



## two sheds (Dec 14, 2020)

forensically  


(sorry didn't hear it, no idea  )


----------



## splonkydoo (Dec 14, 2020)

andysays said:


> So how did he respond?


----------



## ska invita (Dec 14, 2020)

Going on a show with Nick Ferrari and giving him the credibility is more offensive


----------



## killer b (Dec 14, 2020)

I think he handled that reasonably well tbh.


----------



## andysays (Dec 14, 2020)

splonkydoo said:


>



not able to watch that atm. any chance of a brief summary?


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 14, 2020)

Some groyper tried to get starmer to engage in discussion about ‘whites becoming a minority by 2066’. Starmer either ignored this or didn’t pick up on it


----------



## belboid (Dec 14, 2020)

He talks about how all racism is bad and taking the knee at footy is good and completely ignores the conspiraloon stuff, doesn’t bother saying it’s not true.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 14, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Going on a show with Nick Ferrari and giving him the credibility is more offensive


Seriously though, Ferrari is an open "go back to your own country" racist. Starmer should not be raising his profile in this way


----------



## steveseagull (Dec 14, 2020)

killer b said:


> I think he handled that reasonably well tbh.



If failing to call out someone spouting the great replacement neo nazi conspiracy theory is handling it well, he did an amazing job.


----------



## steveseagull (Dec 14, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Seriously though, Ferrari is an open "go back to your own country" racist. Starmer should not be raising his profile in this way



He is after the racist vote so it is a perfect platform for him.


----------



## steveseagull (Dec 14, 2020)

The caller has been identified. Doubt very much if she will be voting Labour.


----------



## belboid (Dec 14, 2020)

Never heard of groyping before 









						What Is Groyping, the Neo-Nazi Propaganda Tool Used On the Radio?
					

"Groyping" is a new far-right propaganda tool that has made its way from the American alt-right to the UK's talk radio shows.




					t.co


----------



## killer b (Dec 14, 2020)

steveseagull said:


> If failing to call out someone spouting the great replacement neo nazi conspiracy theory is handling it well, he did an amazing job.


I think he chose not to engage with it, instead giving a pretty decent explanation why he thought the taking of the knee was worthwhile. We've all wasted many hours of our lives 'calling out' racist conspiracy theorists to zero effect, tbh I can't really blame Starmer for trying a different approach.


----------



## belboid (Dec 14, 2020)

Its the approach Corbyn was slated for.   That was completely different, of course.


----------



## killer b (Dec 14, 2020)

That is not the approach Corbyn was slated for.


----------



## steveseagull (Dec 14, 2020)

The best I can say for him is he did not know what the great replacement conspiracy was and does not recognise racism.  Which does not make things much better.


----------



## steveseagull (Dec 14, 2020)

This should have been called out. No ifs, no buts.


----------



## belboid (Dec 14, 2020)

killer b said:


> That is not the approach Corbyn was slated for.


Ignoring conspiracy theories? Yes he was.   If he’d answered the same question in the same way he’d have been slated for it.


----------



## steveseagull (Dec 14, 2020)

Getting groyped by a neo nazi yoga teacher living in Ibiza is probably a hazard of going on a radio show hosted by a racist mind. I always thought that the Call Keith half hour would end badly.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Dec 14, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Going on a show with Nick Ferrari and giving him the credibility is more offensive



Indeed, Ferrari is white supremacist piece of shit. Here he is at 1:43) asking Afua Hirsch why she doesn’t leave Britain if she thinks it’s racist:


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Dec 14, 2020)

The main problem with Starmer’s response was that, as usual, he only spoke in platitudes. How does racism manifest itself and what steps can be taken to address it? Nothing.


----------



## Knotted (Dec 14, 2020)

The caller wanted to create a drama, Starmer denied her it. Fair play to him on that one.


----------



## Serge Forward (Dec 14, 2020)

belboid said:


> Never heard of groyping before
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'd not heard of it either. They've been doing this shit in the comments sections of local newspaper articles for a while as well.


----------



## cantsin (Dec 14, 2020)

killer b said:


> I think he chose not to engage with it, instead giving a pretty decent explanation why he thought the taking of the knee was worthwhile. We've all wasted many hours of our lives 'calling out' racist conspiracy theorists to zero effect, tbh I can't really blame Starmer for trying a different approach.



" I think he chose not to engage with it......... We've all wasted many hours of our lives 'calling out' racist conspiracy theorists to zero effect, tbh I can't really blame Corbyn for trying a different approach."

imagine...just imagine .....  lolz


----------



## killer b (Dec 14, 2020)

gosh it's almost as if there's two completely different scenarios described here.


----------



## steveseagull (Dec 14, 2020)

If you are an antiracist, you call out white supremacist conspiracy theories. It is as simple as that.

If he did not recognise the conspiracy theory even after it was said to him twice, he should be no where near the leadership


----------



## belboid (Dec 14, 2020)

killer b said:


> gosh it's almost as if there's two completely different scenarios described here.


There really aren't.


----------



## killer b (Dec 14, 2020)

recognising racists on your side vs 'calling out' a racist on the other? of course there is.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Dec 14, 2020)

steveseagull said:


> If you are an antiracist, you call out white supremacist conspiracy theories. It is as simple as that.



And when your ‘calling out’ achieves fuck all, then what?


----------



## Red Sky (Dec 14, 2020)

Quite a clever piece of trolling really.  By framing ethno nationalism in Israeli terms.What could Starmer say to that that wouldn't be construed as "anti semitic".


----------



## killer b (Dec 14, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> And when your ‘calling out’ achieves fuck all, then what?


call it out louder.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Dec 14, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Seriously though, Ferrari is an open "go back to your own country" racist. Starmer should not be raising his profile in this way



I don’t think Starmer is doing it to raise Ferrari’s profile. He’s the absolute wrong person to do it, but the more engagement there is with the programme’s listener’s the better. The more shit ideas are debunked the better.


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 14, 2020)

Red Sky said:


> Quite a clever piece of trolling really.  By framing ethno nationalism in Israeli terms.What could Starmer say to that that wouldn't be construed as "anti semitic".



They put a lot of energy into coordinating it. Doesn’t seem to be getting them (PA) anywhere 

They tried it with majid nawaz the other day. Their fella (calling himself Oswald) just lost his shit


----------



## belboid (Dec 14, 2020)

killer b said:


> recognising racists on your side vs 'calling out' a racist on the other? of course there is.


So not being exactly the same makes something completely different?  Naah.   He missed/ignored the racist claim and just waffled about opposing all racism (and and then claimed we all 'have the right to self-determination' which is just nonsense)


----------



## killer b (Dec 14, 2020)

belboid said:


> So not being exactly the same makes something completely different?  Naah.   He missed/ignored the racist claim and just waffled about opposing all racism (and and then claimed we all 'have the right to self-determination' which is just nonsense)


Or he chose not to engage with the fascist on the terms the fascist tried to engage him in. Let's be honest, the tactic of 'calling out' stuff hasn't exactly proved to be massively successful - and she was hoping to be called out. That's why she called. 

I don't think there's any easy way of dealing with this kind of provocation tbf - it's lose/lose in many ways. But refusing to be baited and pushing home a clear anti-racist message is one way, and I don't think it's any worse than getting involved in some on-air slanging match about racist conspiracy theories.


----------



## belboid (Dec 14, 2020)

You don't need to get in a ding dong, but you do need to say the claim isn't true. And his anti-racist message wasn't clear or even accurate.


----------



## Knotted (Dec 14, 2020)

The caller wasn't calling in and certain people won't be nodding along because they've got a point of fact wrong. Putting aside the details of Starmer's response, "class not race" isn't just a slogan. Why reply to a racist question on their terms - ie. race? It's nice to give Starmer a kicking and all but you're being really stupid here.


----------



## steveseagull (Dec 14, 2020)

To be fair, it was probably his first encounter with an actual fascist.


----------



## belboid (Dec 14, 2020)

Knotted said:


> The caller wasn't calling in and certain people won't be nodding along because they've got a point of fact wrong. Putting aside the details of Starmer's response, "class not race" isn't just a slogan. Why reply to a racist question on their terms - ie. race? It's nice to give Starmer a kicking and all but you're being really stupid here.


Damn, you're right, the best way to oppose racism is to talk about something else and pretend racism isn't an actual issue.  That's always worked really well in the past.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 14, 2020)

Speaking as an _indigenous _Brown skinned Brit I actually do feel an existential threat when shit like that goes unchallenged however mangled and ridiculous the logic.

Yeah I know...._grow a thicker skin, don't give them the pleasure, ignore it, their loss_ etc etc...


----------



## ska invita (Dec 14, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I don’t think Starmer is doing it to raise Ferrari’s profile. He’s the absolute wrong person to do it, but the more engagement there is with the programme’s listener’s the better. The more shit ideas are debunked the better.


You misunderstood me if you thought I was saying Starmer went on this to raise Ferrari's profile. I know why he went on, and he shouldnt have.

Sir Starmer made a point of refusing to give an interview to the Sun, because of the Hillsborough coverage some 30 years ago now.
This piece of shit Ferrari _in the last few months _asked a British women of colour why she doesnt go back to her own country, and scaremongered that Jamaican paedophiles and racists will be moving in to a street near you. He's a long history of it - heres a complaint of racist incitement upheld back in 2003. I'm sure there are endless other incidents, I do not follow the mans utterings unless I can avoid it. He puts a green light on for racist callers and thats why you get fake calls like the one today on his show. LBC happily employed Katie Hopkins and Nigel Farage - both open ultra-nationalist racists and white supremacists. The station is a sewer, and Ferarri is one of their proudest turds floating in it.

Starmer is meant to be the prime minister in waiting. I presume as such he wouldn't do an interview with David Icke, even though he would be communicating with that all important part of the electorate, the ever growing army of conspiracy loons. Nor would he be doing a cooking slot on Nick Griffins BNP Kitchen youtube channel. He's already said he won't do the Sun (until he inevitably does of course).

So why go on Nick Ferrari show? Why treat him as a respectable broadcaster, one who is of a status to interview a Prime Minister? Obviously Boris Johnson will go on there because racist nationalists like to stick together and wank off their mutual base. I couldn't even be in the same room as that piece of shit. But hey maybe Starmer has got a blind spot to racism? Maybe he needs to go on a racism awareness course? Maybe he leads a party that doesn't take racism seriously?

I'm sick of all these bigoted cunts being treated like serious and respectable people, appearing on Question Time and all the rest. They should be barred from pubs, never mind allowed prime spots on mainstream media. And Starmer going on there just gives them that tick of approval, of reputability, enabling the whole ideology and in turn dragging this country by the hair backwards to the 1970s.


----------



## killer b (Dec 14, 2020)

ska invita said:


> You misunderstood me if you thought I was saying Starmer went on this to raise Ferrari's profile. I know why he went on, and he shouldnt have.
> 
> Sir Starmer made a point of refusing to give an interview to the Sun, because of the Hillsborough coverage some 30 years ago now.
> This piece of shit Ferrari _in the last few months _asked a British women of colour why she doesnt go back to her own country, and scaremongered that Jamaican paedophiles and racists will be moving in to a street near you. He's a long history of it - heres a complaint of racist incitement upheld back in 2003. I'm sure there are endless other incidents, I do not follow the mans utterings unless I can avoid it. LBC happily employed Katie Hopkins and Nigel Farage - both open ultra-nationalist racists and white supremacists. The station is a sewer, and Ferarri is one of their proudest turds floating in it.
> ...


Agree with this post, but it's worth saying Starmer only made a point of refusing to give an interview to The Sun because he was asked about it at a leadership hustings in Liverpool - it certainly wasn't a point of principle.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 14, 2020)

killer b said:


> Agree with this post, but it's worth saying Starmer only made a point of refusing to give an interview to The Sun because he was asked about it at a leadership hustings in Liverpool - it certainly wasn't a point of principle.


yeah i know that but i want to use it against him for my argument


----------



## ska invita (Dec 14, 2020)




----------



## Smokeandsteam (Dec 14, 2020)

ska invita said:


> So why go on Nick Ferrari show? Why treat him as a respectable broadcaster, one who is of a status to interview a Prime Minister? But hey maybe Starmer has got a blind spot to racism? Maybe he needs to go on a racism awareness course? Maybe he leads a party that doesn't take racism seriously?



Maybe it’s none of those reasons? Maybe Starmer, or someone in his office, recognises that beyond the host and the committed racists among the audience, that the vast mass of those tuning in are precisely those that Labour needs to engage with and win?

As I say, the efficacy of Starmer’s drab metropolitan elite liberalism is another matter.

We aren't going to agree on this, but contesting these spaces, instead of shouting at them from outside, should be an organising principe.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 14, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> .... contesting these spaces, instead of shouting at them from outside, should be an organising principe.



So how does one contest these spaces without calling out/engaging with and undermining that kind of rhetoric?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Dec 14, 2020)

Rutita1 said:


> So how does one contest these spaces without calling out/engaging with and undermining that kind of rhetoric?



I’ve got no issue with engaging with and undermining that kind of rhetoric. None at all.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 15, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I’ve got no issue with engaging with and undermining that kind of rhetoric. None at all.



Yes I know and your post suggested that is what should be done instead of boycotting shows like that and moaning from the outside...How would you do that then is my question? Because from where I am sitting KS didn't do that and if he is going to sit next to Nick Fuckshit  on the regular and take calls he is going to have to do just that.


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 15, 2020)

The PA woman’s 2066 date (which they have as the mast head to of their website, counting down the seconds no less) is easy to undermine - it’s an estimate from (I think) ten years ago, made by one bloke. 

one way to undermine the politics of racial animus and ancestor worship is to is stop looking the other way when it suits 

Also ask them why so many of their milieu are nonces with weird pseudonyms, and why they are so keen to recruit: children, autistic people - this is a thing (there are some very unpleasant autistic men - Jonty bravery for example) and ex alcoholics. 

And challenge their eugenic ideas. Not a good look to be into killing kids, old people, _the vulnerable_ (which is why the NHS is so keen to cover up of course).


----------



## brogdale (Dec 15, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Also ask them why so many of their milieu are nonces with weird pseudonyms, and why they are so keen to recruit: children, autistic people - this is a thing (*there are some very unpleasant autistic men* - Jonty bravery for example) and ex alcoholics.


On face value that appears an unnecessarily unpleasant observation.


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 15, 2020)

brogdale said:


> On face value that appears an unnecessarily unpleasant observation.



Because?


----------



## brogdale (Dec 15, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Because?


In a self-selecting group of people drawn together by racist beliefs I can’t see why you’d choose to specifically reference the unpleasantness of one, single sex subset.


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 15, 2020)

Because unpleasant autistic men are a target group for PA, and generally us autistic people aren’t sadistic nazi nonce types


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 15, 2020)

Their ‘appeal’ to autism (and they do this) is based on the sort of deeply unpleasant mindsets you find in some autistic (almost exclusively male) people. Superiority, sexual entitlement/rage at sexual rejection, resentment of ‘normies’.

I’d prefer to know what the recruitment strategies of Hitler idolising cults were.









						Teenage Satanist and far-right extremist sentenced for terrorism offences
					

Harry Vaughan posted bomb-making manuals online and also committed child abuse image offences




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 15, 2020)

Without linking to very unpleasant material I’m not sure what more I can say. Those who move in the same circles as that yoga teacher make a big thing about being autistic, and claim a link between autism and far right views (Edward Dutton, a deeply unpleasant autistic man, has produced material on the latter)


----------



## brogdale (Dec 15, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Because unpleasant autistic men are a target group for PA, and generally us autistic people aren’t sadistic nazi nonce types


If groups like this target autistic people that is a valid observation, but saying "_there are some very unpleasant autistic men" _appears simply unnecessary when commenting on those organising around deeply repugnant world views.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 15, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Their ‘appeal’ to autism (and they do this) is based on the sort of deeply unpleasant mindsets you find in some autistic (almost exclusively male) people. Superiority, sexual entitlement/rage at sexual rejection, resentment of ‘normies’.
> 
> I’d prefer to know what the recruitment strategies of Hitler idolising cults were.
> 
> ...


The more you say about this, the more uncomfortable I'm finding this. With the exception of "resentment of ‘normies", these would appear to be antisocial attributes that might be found widely in society and almost certainly in higher concentrations in groups drawn together by an antisocial world view. I don't understand why you'd feel it necessary to draw attention to the 'unpleasantness' of a sub-set of followers that happen to be autistic.


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 15, 2020)

Right ho, odd thing to get upset about


----------



## brogdale (Dec 15, 2020)

Stereotyping minority groups can often lead to upset, but you're probably right that this thread derail is closed.


----------



## Knotted (Dec 15, 2020)

belboid said:


> Damn, you're right, the best way to oppose racism is to talk about something else and pretend racism isn't an actual issue.  That's always worked really well in the past.



He did talk about racism?? Just not on the caller's race oriented terms. He talked (in an unfocused non committal way, he is Sir Keith after all) about real issues not the made up ones the caller was on about. That was absolutely not the time and place to start trying to debunk replacement theory and it would have had a knock on effect on BLM if he had tried. People are going to listen to this stuff because it plays to their fears and that's not going to change if you unpick some of the details in a couple minutes on a phone in. Starmer made BLM look like they are harmless to white people (which they are of course) and that's exactly the opposite of the caller's implication. Job well done.


----------



## cantsin (Dec 15, 2020)

ska invita said:


>




v interesting - may be missing something obvs, but why do we think it's fallen off a cliff ( temporarily or otherwise ), Oct - Dec ?


----------



## 19force8 (Dec 15, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> I’d prefer to know what the recruitment strategies of Hitler idolising cults were.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The state of this:

Child pornography, Nazi posters on the walls, explosives manuals, terrorist forums, etc.

I don't know what's more shocking - that he got a suspended sentence or that his parents didn't have a clue. 

I'd heard about Kingston juries, I didn't realise they took their cue from the bench


----------



## belboid (Dec 15, 2020)

If this year has taught me anything, it really is that most anarchists are just wet bloody liberals 



Knotted said:


> He did talk about racism?? Just not on the caller's race oriented terms. He talked (in an unfocused non committal way, he is Sir Keith after all) about real issues not the made up ones the caller was on about. That was absolutely not the time and place to start trying to debunk replacement theory and it would have had a knock on effect on BLM if he had tried. People are going to listen to this stuff because it plays to their fears and that's not going to change if you unpick some of the details in a couple minutes on a phone in. Starmer made BLM look like they are harmless to white people (which they are of course) and that's exactly the opposite of the caller's implication. Job well done.


He didn’t talk about racism.  He made a decent case about continuing to take a knee to highlight the need to oppose racism.  But he didn’t talk about it, he just took it as read that everyone thinks racism is bad.  Anyone listening who didn’t already agree with him would just think he ignored the question about white people becoming a minority in ‘our own’ country.   Because he did.  It only required a brief retort Along the lines of ‘people have been saying that since the war, that white people would be a minority by the eighties, the turn of the century, whenever, but it’s just not true’.  Ignoring it does nothing to change the terms of the debate and just risks further alienating victims of racism.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Dec 15, 2020)

belboid said:


> If this year has taught me anything, it really is that most anarchists are just wet bloody liberals



Me too. Are you still in the Labour Party by the way?


----------



## belboid (Dec 15, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Me too. Are you still in the Labour Party by the way?


Yup, and I’ll probably stay till they kick me out.    Costs little, I pick up a few bits of useful info and it’s slightly irritating to some of the right.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 15, 2020)

and the left


----------



## splonkydoo (Dec 15, 2020)

It's disappointing seeing folk fall in to the centrist soup over this one. It was never just about being cautious about getting stuck in on someone elses terms, but the fact you also had thousands of people listening in and he didn't use one word to rebut the 'great replacement' conspiracy. It's very simple. 
If his utmost concern was to keep things civil he could even have quickly said, even after this caller logged off, 'Look, I just want to briefly go back for one second before moving on, because this 'great replacement' idea is very pernicious..'

But no. This is what happens when you focus group the shit out of everything, want to please everyone except the left, and are consequently left being a bit too accommodating in the face of what turns out to be a full-blown white-nationalist.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 15, 2020)

I wasn't aware until now having heard a longer clip that the lovely ethno-nationalist Gemma from Cambridge also said that her hubby had been at the MIllwall game and joined in with the booing...Well colour me surprised.


----------



## splonkydoo (Dec 15, 2020)

Rutita1 said:


> I wasn't aware until now having heard a longer clip that the lovely ethno-nationalist Gemma from Cambridge also said that her hubby had been at the MIllwall game and joined in with the booing...Well colour me surprised.



I'd reckon that bit was probably/most likely made up just so as to get on to ask the question in the first place.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 15, 2020)

He didn't boo because he was racist though, he just had a political disagreement with the BLM movement.


----------



## 19force8 (Dec 15, 2020)

I'm just wondering if the risk of repeating this traumatic incident is what terrified sir keith:









						The Gordon Brown ‘bigotgate’ transcript in full, 10 years on
					

Today marks anniversary of then-prime minister calling Rochdale voter ‘a bigoted woman’




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## killer b (Dec 15, 2020)

19force8 said:


> I'm just wondering if the risk of repeating this traumatic incident is what terrified sir keith:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I've never read that full exchange before - pretty interesting 'cause although Brown calls it a disaster after he gets into the car, its actually difficult to imagine a party leader as on top of the detail as he was in that exchange now.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 15, 2020)

splonkydoo said:


> I'd reckon that bit was probably/most likely made up just so as to get on to ask the question in the first place.



Could be right  ...even so...these fuckers know what they're doing. I was also struck by her saying twice  _'we're probably quite ignorant about the whole thing'_ , _'bear with me'_ , calmly setting the scene, and then going on to very clearly lay out her White Supremacist thinking as if it was the only logical next step...


----------



## agricola (Dec 15, 2020)

cantsin said:


> v interesting - may be missing something obvs, but why do we think it's fallen off a cliff ( temporarily or otherwise ), Oct - Dec ?



I'd guess its a combination of Johnson calling him "Captain Hindsight" (which although childish is a criticism that can be made when Starmer isn't actually saying what he would do instead about COVID and quite a few other things), the newness wearing off and in the last few months the row with Corbs (or rather Labour appearing to be split again).


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 15, 2020)

Missed this.



brogdale said:


> Stereotyping minority groups


 So where have I done that then


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Dec 15, 2020)

The revisionist Starmer clique has suspended Liverpool momentum Merseyside activist Alan Gibbons. Unclear why at this stage, but it seems pretty kafkaesque.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Dec 16, 2020)

Jeff Robinson said:


> The revisionist Starmer clique has suspended Liverpool momentum Merseyside activist Alan Gibbons. Unclear why at this stage, but it seems pretty kafkaesque.




can you explain how it’s both unclear and Kafkaesque at the same time Jeffrey?


----------



## two sheds (Dec 16, 2020)

because they've not said why they've suspended him I think


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Dec 16, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> can you explain how it’s both unclear and Kafkaesque at the same time Jeffrey?



Jefferson.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 16, 2020)

“Judgement does not come suddenly; the proceedings gradually merge into the judgement.”
― Franz Kafka, The Trial


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Dec 16, 2020)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Jefferson.



Apologies Jefferson!


----------



## Knotted (Dec 16, 2020)

belboid said:


> If this year has taught me anything, it really is that most anarchists are just wet bloody liberals
> 
> 
> He didn’t talk about racism.  He made a decent case about continuing to take a knee to highlight the need to oppose racism.  But he didn’t talk about it, he just took it as read that everyone thinks racism is bad.  Anyone listening who didn’t already agree with him would just think he ignored the question about white people becoming a minority in ‘our own’ country.   Because he did.  It only required a brief retort Along the lines of ‘people have been saying that since the war, that white people would be a minority by the eighties, the turn of the century, whenever, but it’s just not true’.  Ignoring it does nothing to change the terms of the debate and just risks further alienating victims of racism.



Alright, good reply and sorry about saying you were being stupid. I still think Starmer's response effectively frustrated the "groyping" efforts, but I'm not wasting anymore time on it. (Also looking at it again, he appeared to say that all countries have something equivalent to Israel's citizenship laws  ).


----------



## killer b (Dec 16, 2020)

Jeff Robinson said:


> The revisionist Starmer clique has suspended Liverpool momentum Merseyside activist Alan Gibbons. Unclear why at this stage, but it seems pretty kafkaesque.


I googled Alan Gibbons to find that not only is he a socialist, he's also a well regarded children's author, and one of his books - Shadow of the Minotaur, a tale of nerdy kids, greek myths and computer games - looks like exactly the kind of thing my 11-year old would love for Christmas. I ordered a copy. Thanks for that Kier Starmer!

(in between the book going into my basket and actually paying for it, I discovered Gibbons was is also ex-SWP, a central committee member no less, so I had to spend some time checking his position on the SWP rape gang thing, and he seems to have left the party at the right point and has been vocal about it on twitter, so I - relieved - bought it. Who imagined such an ethical minefield around buying children's literature?)


----------



## steveseagull (Dec 17, 2020)

Another Jew suspended


----------



## hitmouse (Dec 17, 2020)

killer b said:


> Who imagined such an ethical minefield around buying children's literature?


Tbh, between Michael Rosen and the author of a certain series of wizard books, it's not like the last few years have been short of high-profile political arguments involving children's book authors.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 23, 2020)

As the nation slips even further into a co-morbidity of crises it seems that Starmer's image as a Prime Minister in waiting is also slipping:


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 23, 2020)

He has been fucking useless


----------



## hitmouse (Dec 23, 2020)

brogdale said:


> As the nation slips even further into a co-morbidity of crises it seems that Starmer's image as a Prime Minister in waiting is also slipping:
> 
> View attachment 244988


The pedant in me is cringing at that title. Also, is there any polling on "Does Kier Starmer look like a bit of a twat?" for comparison purposes?


----------



## brogdale (Dec 23, 2020)

hitmouse said:


> The pedant in me is cringing at that title. Also, is there any polling on "Does Kier Starmer look like a bit of a twat?" for comparison purposes?


Yeah, IKWYM; the actual wording according to YG was:


> FULL QUESTION
> 
> People often say that the Leader of the Opposition does, or does not,"look like a Prime Minister in waiting". Do you believe that at the moment Keir Starmer does or does not look like a Prime Minister in waiting?


----------



## mauvais (Dec 23, 2020)

brogdale said:


> As the nation slips even further into a co-morbidity of crises it seems that Starmer's image as a Prime Minister in waiting is also slipping:
> 
> View attachment 244988


Prime Minster?


----------



## ska invita (Dec 23, 2020)

i wonder what the total for suspended members is now? several hundred id guess


----------



## Sprocket. (Dec 28, 2020)

Tosh McDonald’s had enough with the look of it.
I haven’t seen him for a while due to the Covid restrictions, but I had heard he wasn’t a happy comrade.








						Former Aslef president Tosh McDonald: I can't stand as a Labour councillor amid Starmer's purges
					






					morningstaronline.co.uk


----------



## steveseagull (Dec 28, 2020)

There probably is not many people left he has not fucked off apart from his hardcore Stans.  The #FBPE cult are raging at him now. And he is literally going to whip the vote to take ownership of this Tory mess.

Truly a controlled opposition.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 28, 2020)

killer b said:


> I googled Alan Gibbons to find that not only is he a socialist, he's also a well regarded children's author, and one of his books - Shadow of the Minotaur, a tale of nerdy kids, greek myths and computer games - looks like exactly the kind of thing my 11-year old would love for Christmas. I ordered a copy. Thanks for that Kier Starmer!
> 
> (in between the book going into my basket and actually paying for it, I discovered Gibbons was is also ex-SWP, a central committee member no less, so I had to spend some time checking his position on the SWP rape gang thing, and he seems to have left the party at the right point and has been vocal about it on twitter, so I - relieved - bought it. Who imagined such an ethical minefield around buying children's literature?)


Gibbons has been around for years as an activist


----------



## brogdale (Dec 30, 2020)

Yep, Skinner knew that was the moment...


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 30, 2020)

"Hello ? Is that the Labour Party I would like a copy of Starmer's manifesto please."

' We've sold out '

"Yes I know that but can I still  have a copy of  his manifesto?"


----------



## teqniq (Dec 30, 2020)




----------



## The39thStep (Dec 30, 2020)

Starmer “We will always be European...we will always have shared values, a shared history” True ; colonisation, empires and the slave trade spring to mind.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Dec 30, 2020)

Fascinating stuff from Kieth. The speech he’s given is the one corbyn should have made four years ago but was unable to, in large part because of the manoeuvres of Kieth and other continuity remain cranks


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Dec 30, 2020)

Bastani, for once, is spot on....


----------



## brogdale (Dec 30, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Bastani, for once, is spot on....



Future historians of the former left party of capital may well look on Corbyn's instant, gut reaction as the clearest position on the topic ever taken by the party.


----------



## nogojones (Dec 30, 2020)

Sprocket. said:


> Tosh McDonald’s had enough with the look of it.
> I haven’t seen him for a while due to the Covid restrictions, but I had heard he wasn’t a happy comrade.
> 
> 
> ...


Is that Gandlf the Red?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 30, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Future historians of the former left party of capital may well look on Corbyn's instant, gut reaction as the clearest position on the topic ever taken by the party.
> 
> View attachment 246118



Please don't remind me about the fucking chicken coup.

Jeremy with a free hand the months after the Conservatives exploded could have seen us sorting this shit out rapidly.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 31, 2020)

Finally, a concrete political position from the Director of Prosecutions


----------



## NoXion (Jan 1, 2021)

@ Kieth


----------



## Lord Camomile (Jan 2, 2021)

Starmer's resigning tomorrow, 4pm announcement.

Heard it on Twitter


----------



## two sheds (Jan 2, 2021)

Lord Camomile said:


> Starmer's resigning tomorrow, 4pm announcement.
> 
> Heard it on Twitter





> Got a text from a mate about #StarmerQuits apparently it was a typo and he's getting into quilting. Though he is apparently resigning to spend more time doing it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 2, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Bastani, for once, is spot on....



Every day is a day of utter humiliation for the labour party

In the last fifty years they have been in power for 18 years while the tories have governed for 32.


----------



## steveseagull (Jan 2, 2021)

Anyone seen Keith  this weekend?  #starmerquits seems to be trending on Twitter


----------



## MrSki (Jan 2, 2021)

No 1   



> *United Kingdom trends*
> 1
> ·
> Politics · Trending
> ...


----------



## a_chap (Jan 2, 2021)

Apparently this is the Tweet that started all the #starmerQuits malarkey on Twitter...


----------



## MrSki (Jan 2, 2021)




----------



## Lord Camomile (Jan 2, 2021)

a_chap said:


> Apparently this is the Tweet that started all the #starmerQuits malarkey on Twitter...
> 
> View attachment 246729


Given that it's a screenshot of a "now deleted tweet", I'm gonna treat it with a lot of suspicion at this stage.


----------



## hitmouse (Jan 2, 2021)

I dunno, this looks pretty convincing.  😲


----------



## andysays (Jan 2, 2021)

This is just his New Year's resolution to give up smoking, isn't it?


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jan 2, 2021)

surely he will wait to see whether that twat johnson is in favour of him resigning before he makes a decision?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 2, 2021)

andysays said:


> This is just his New Year's resolution to give up smoking, isn't it?


No, this is his new year's resolution to just give up


----------



## brogdale (Jan 2, 2021)




----------



## a_chap (Jan 2, 2021)




----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 2, 2021)

Don't you think he looks tired?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jan 3, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Every day is a day of utter humiliation for the labour party
> 
> In the last fifty years they have been in power for 18 years while the tories have governed for 32.



I couldn’t agree more. The fact that Bastani seems to have noticed is noteworthy though. He’s a fairly significant figure in a younger milieu who once assumed that the Labour Party was a fit for purpose vehicle for socialist politics and could be repurposed.


----------



## brogdale (Jan 3, 2021)

Finally, something I agree with:


----------



## agricola (Jan 3, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Finally, something I agree with:
> 
> View attachment 246852



so thats what, two days of attacks on Starmer for calling for a national lockdown and then a national lockdown from Wednesday?


----------



## Humberto (Jan 3, 2021)

Lack of fight, leadership and building of solidarity? Early days and difficult times for an opposition leader though. Maybe. Just haven't seen much to be encouraged by yet.


----------



## BigMoaner (Jan 3, 2021)

Keith getting a lot of praise on LBC recently from various hosts and callers.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jan 3, 2021)

BigMoaner said:


> Keith getting a lot of praise on LBC recently from various hosts and callers.


----------



## BigMoaner (Jan 3, 2021)

is Keith right or left of blair? where does Keith sit on the political spectrum? Usual blairite bore?


----------



## Lord Camomile (Jan 3, 2021)

BigMoaner said:


> Keith getting a lot of praise on LBC recently from various hosts and callers.


For what??


----------



## BigMoaner (Jan 3, 2021)

Lord Camomile said:


> For what??


"voice of reason" was what i heard a few times today.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Jan 3, 2021)

BigMoaner said:


> "voice of reason" was what i heard a few times today.


I suppose that's what he's been going for, but it does seem quite a quiet, mealy-mouthed voice.

Just thought: the government are almost certainly _not_ going to lockdown in the next 24 hours, as there's no way they want to give Starmer that win. Has he just gambled with peoples' lives by causing the government to delay any plans they might have had, or is he figuring they weren't going to lockdown in the next couple of days anyway so he just gets to say "told you so" when they inevitably do at some later (and far too late) date?


----------



## BigMoaner (Jan 3, 2021)

Lord Camomile said:


> I suppose that's what he's been going for, but it does seem quite a quiet, mealy-mouthed voice.
> 
> Just thought: the government are almost certainly _not_ going to lockdown in the next 24 hours, as there's no way they want to give Starmer that win. Has he just gambled with peoples' lives by causing the government to delay any plans they might have had, or is he figuring they weren't going to lockdown in the next couple of days anyway so he just gets to say "told you so" when they inevitably do at some later (and far too late) date?


no idea mate, sorry.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Jan 3, 2021)

Ha, no worries, was more an open question to anyone rather than expecting you to have all the answers


----------



## BigMoaner (Jan 3, 2021)

Lord Camomile said:


> Ha, no worries, was more an open question to anyone rather than expecting you to have all the answers


----------



## magneze (Jan 3, 2021)

Lord Camomile said:


> I suppose that's what he's been going for, but it does seem quite a quiet, mealy-mouthed voice.
> 
> Just thought: the government are almost certainly _not_ going to lockdown in the next 24 hours, as there's no way they want to give Starmer that win. Has he just gambled with peoples' lives by causing the government to delay any plans they might have had, or is he figuring they weren't going to lockdown in the next couple of days anyway so he just gets to say "told you so" when they inevitably do at some later (and far too late) date?


I see what you mean but that's on the government rather than Keith.


----------



## ska invita (Jan 3, 2021)

Lord Camomile said:


> Just thought: the government are almost certainly _not_ going to lockdown in the next 24 hours, as there's no way they want to give Starmer that win. Has he just gambled with peoples' lives by causing the government to delay any plans they might have had, or is he figuring they weren't going to lockdown in the next couple of days anyway so he just gets to say "told you so" when they inevitably do at some later (and far too late) date?


The government are almost certainly _not_ going to lockdown in the next 24 hours because Johnson just went on TV and told everyone to send their kids back to school tomorrow. Going into lockdown would be less of a u turn and more of a car crash


----------



## Lord Camomile (Jan 3, 2021)

ska invita said:


> The government are almost certainly _not_ going to lockdown in the next 24 hours because Johnson just went on TV and told everyone to send their kids back to school tomorrow. Going into lockdown would be less of a u turn and more of a car crash


Aye, obviously they weren't going to do it tomorrow (well, I say "obviously", but this government...), but figure they'll now want to get extra distance from Starmer's comments.

I dunno, never been very good at this political business


----------



## ska invita (Jan 3, 2021)

Lord Camomile said:


> Aye, obviously they weren't going to do it tomorrow (well, I say "obviously", but this government...), but figure they'll now want to get extra distance from Starmer's comments.
> 
> I dunno, never been very good at this political business


they'll be guided by the science, obvs


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jan 3, 2021)

ska invita said:


> they'll be guided by the public health advisors on a retainer, obvs


FTFY


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jan 4, 2021)

BigMoaner said:


> Keith getting a lot of praise on LBC recently from various hosts and callers.




So he’s found support amongst the most verminous section of UK society. Good work


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jan 4, 2021)

It’s possible that talk sport is even more cancerous, but at least they don’t pretend to be anything more than rightist excrement


----------



## teqniq (Jan 4, 2021)

In truth I cannot unequivocally say this is down to Keith but I would be in the least bit surprised it it is.


----------



## brogdale (Jan 4, 2021)

Gotta admire the stubborn, wilful ignorance of fully 3% of those responding to express their intent to vote for a party calling for Brexit.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jan 4, 2021)

teqniq said:


> In truth I cannot unequivocally say this is down to Keith but I would be in the least bit surprised it it is.



suggests that there's a lot of 'don't know' / 'won't vote' / 'bollocks to the lot of them' - fairly sure there was a different one out a couple of days ago that was a similar labour lead and the guardian was hailing it as a new dawn and a vindication of sir kieth

and incidentally  at the limp dems being behind the greens

and    at the limp dems being behind the SNP


----------



## cantsin (Jan 4, 2021)

still not a single word of support for the NEU from Starmer, Green or wanky Wes, now an hr and a half away from Johnson implicitly conceding they were correct from Pre xmas :
there should have been no attempt at return to school this week, or next, the data was unequivocal.


----------



## Zapp Brannigan (Jan 4, 2021)

26th-30th December.  The final straight of Super Boris Getting Brexit Done, great 11th hour brinkmanship to finally show those unelected fat cats in Brussels who gets the fish.  Also the virus was on holiday.  Good times.

Fieldwork done taking the POV of stressed parents trying to sort work / childcare this week will tell a different story.  Tories down massively what with the mass murder, Labour down cos Starmer's a non entity cunt.

Cometh the hour, cometh the lib dems.


----------



## brogdale (Jan 4, 2021)

Why are folk surprised at the LP not supporting Unions undertaking action on behalf of their members?


----------



## Gramsci (Jan 4, 2021)

I see cantsin  has already posted about Starmers volte face on school closures.

I thought maybe I was wrong. Looked it up.

Before Christmas Starmer was refusing to support London Mayor Khan and Greenwich who wanted schools closed in London. These are not hard left politicians.

Starmer urges leaders to try to keep schools open

Now his last minute line when it looks like government will close schools is:

"Close schools to get Covid under control"









						Close Schools To Get Covid 'Under Control', Says Keir Starmer
					

Labour leader says Boris Johnson is delaying "inevitable" and must issue "strong" stay at home advice.




					www.huffingtonpost.co.uk
				




To refuse to support the Labour Mayor of London is pretty shit.

I dont understand what game Starmer is playing.

Or unfortunately I do. Its back to sensible centre politics driven by the going one way or the other looking to see if it improves polls. Not appearing to be to strident. Exactly the kind of politiciking that puts people off politicians long term,


----------



## hitmouse (Jan 4, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> I dont understand what game Starmer is playing.


I'm not convinced Starmer understands what game Starmer is playing, so you're not alone there.


----------



## ska invita (Jan 4, 2021)

if you'd like to marvel for a moment at the delusional and pathetic Starmeratti, check out the #CaptainForesight hashtag


			https://twitter.com/hashtag/CaptainForesight?src=hashtag_click


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 5, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Don't you think he looks tired?



Gonna have to start calling him Harriet.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 5, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> I'm not convinced Starmer understands what game Starmer is playing, so you're not alone there.



1. Be a useless twat
2. ????????
3. Become prime minister

e2a: In Starmer's defence, this did work out OK for Boris Johnson. But that single data point should be seen alongside the hundreds of thousands of useless twats who never become prime minister. It's a classic availability error.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 5, 2021)

BigMoaner said:


> is Keith right or left of blair? where does Keith sit on the political spectrum? Usual blairite bore?



More authoritarian than Blair maybe? Although I often forget how bad Blair and his home secretaries were for that shit.


----------



## mauvais (Jan 5, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> Or unfortunately I do. Its back to sensible centre politics driven by the going one way or the other looking to see if it improves polls. Not appearing to be to strident. Exactly the kind of politiciking that puts people off politicians long term,


Maybe he's having a go at a one man A/B test.


----------



## ska invita (Jan 5, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> More authoritarian than Blair maybe? Although I often forget how bad Blair and his home secretaries were for that shit.


yeah the Blairites were awful. that literal tankie home secretary John Reid introducing ID cards,  banning hoodies in shopping centres, attempted  9pm curfews on under-16s etc, never mind the invasions.
Starmer clearly loves "authority", prosecutions and policing.... if he ever gets a taste of the power of office......


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 5, 2021)

Twitter has spoken...


----------



## TopCat (Jan 5, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Please don't remind me about the fucking chicken coup.
> 
> Jeremy with a free hand the months after the Conservatives exploded could have seen us sorting this shit out rapidly.


Right wing remainers have a lot to answer for.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 5, 2021)

BigMoaner said:


> is Keith right or left of blair? where does Keith sit on the political spectrum? Usual blairite bore?


He is a millionaire capitalist who likes to think he is socially liberal.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 5, 2021)

TopCat said:


> He is a millionaire capitalist who likes to think he is socially liberal.


When you've that in the bank you can afford those delusions


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 5, 2021)

TopCat said:


> He is a millionaire capitalist who likes to think he is socially liberal.


He's a millionaire but is he a capitalist ? I thought most of his valuation as a millionaire was from his house value?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 5, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> He's a millionaire but is he a capitalist ? I thought most of his valuation as a millionaire was from his house value?


He's the leader of the labour party, of course he's a capitalist


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 5, 2021)

ska invita said:


> yeah the Blairites were awful. that literal tankie home secretary John Reid introducing ID cards,  banning hoodies in shopping centres, attempted  9pm curfews on under-16s etc, never mind the invasions.
> Starmer clearly loves "authority", prosecutions and policing.... if he ever gets a taste of the power of office......


Aren't those Child Curfew Acts still on the legislation?


----------



## ska invita (Jan 5, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Aren't those Child Curfew Acts still on the legislation?


 i hope not
ive worn hoodies in shopping malls since and seem to have got away with it


----------



## TopCat (Jan 5, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> He's a millionaire but is he a capitalist ? I thought most of his valuation as a millionaire was from his house value?


A firm supporter of capitalism. I dont think he ever ran a business.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jan 5, 2021)

Another dismal display from the revisionist Starmer clique.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 5, 2021)

ska invita said:


> i hope not
> ive worn hoodies in shopping malls since and seem to have got away with it


I think some malls banned hoodies for a short while but its gone out of fashion now. The Child Curfews were to do with asb hotspots rather than hoodies.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 5, 2021)

TopCat said:


> A firm supporter of capitalism. I dont think he ever ran a business.


I was reassured by some Labour posters on here that he was the best man to take the Corbyn economic programme further forward when he was elected.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 5, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> I was reassured by some Labour posters on here that he was the best man to take the Corbyn economic programme further forward when he was elected.


He is to the right of Jeremy Corbyn as Corbyn was to red jim callaghan


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 5, 2021)




----------



## splonkydoo (Jan 5, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> View attachment 247180




He meant to re-state his support for morning raids there, not trade unions. Silly Kier.


----------



## ska invita (Jan 5, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> View attachment 247180


Oh the foresight


----------



## andysays (Jan 5, 2021)

ska invita said:


> yeah the Blairites were awful. that literal tankie home secretary John Reid introducing ID cards,  banning hoodies in shopping centres, attempted  9pm curfews on under-16s etc, never mind the invasions.
> Starmer clearly loves "authority", prosecutions and policing.... if he ever gets a taste of the power of office......


Looks like he's folded already


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jan 5, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> I was reassured by some Labour posters on here that he was the best man to take the Corbyn economic programme further forward when he was elected.



And how can we forget.....


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 5, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> And how can we forget.....




He's half right tbf. Starmer would advance the class struggle, just in the opposite direction from that which Mason seems to be implying.


----------



## Sprocket. (Jan 5, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> He's half right tbf. Starmer would advance the class struggle, just in the opposite direction from that which Mason seems to be implying.


I was tempted to ask which class?


----------



## teqniq (Jan 5, 2021)




----------



## The39thStep (Jan 5, 2021)

teqniq said:


>



He’s like John Le Mesurier in Dads Army without the latter’s  charm and wit


----------



## two sheds (Jan 5, 2021)

or dope smoking


----------



## elbows (Jan 5, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> He’s like John Le Mesurier in Dads Army without the latter’s  charm and wit



Owen Smith tried the telepods from The Fly but someone had left some beetroot in the pod and Keith is the resulting hybrid. Top scientists are trying to reverse the process but are unsure any of his original roots can be salvaged.


----------



## mauvais (Jan 5, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> He’s like John Le Mesurier in Dads Army without the latter’s  charm and wit


For some reason he makes me think of Gordon from Thomas the Tank Engine.



Specifically Gordon from Thomas the Tank Engine immediately after having been caught having an emergency shit in a public park whilst out jogging.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 5, 2021)

mauvais said:


> For some reason he makes me think of Gordon from Thomas the Tank Engine.
> 
> View attachment 247193
> 
> Specifically Gordon from Thomas the Tank Engine immediately after having been caught having an emergency shit in a public park whilst out jogging.


Gordon actually backed a strike though


----------



## Knotted (Jan 5, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> To refuse to support the Labour Mayor of London is pretty shit.
> 
> I dont understand what game Starmer is playing.
> 
> Or unfortunately I do. Its back to sensible centre politics driven by the going one way or the other looking to see if it improves polls. Not appearing to be to strident. Exactly the kind of politiciking that puts people off politicians long term,



To be fair Tony Blair was never this insipid. Even if his ideology lacked anything substantial he didn't just follow the Tories' lead beat for beat when he was in opposition.

I don't think Starmer has a bigger gameplan, this is all there is and it's not even working in the short term.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jan 5, 2021)

DP


----------



## redsquirrel (Jan 5, 2021)

DotCommunist said:


> Gordon actually backed a strike though


Which one was the scab?


----------



## hitmouse (Jan 5, 2021)

Huh, just realised that this is the one year anniversary of a BM Blob pamphlet showing up in a Starmer for leader video, a moment of weirdness that's still hard to top:


----------



## Plumdaff (Jan 5, 2021)

Blair would be absolutely excoriating the Tories for their management of this. There'd be no ideological difference, but he'd have been ahead of them, had a strategy, and have pointed out their uselessness over and over again. 

Starmer can't even manage politics on his own insipid terms.


----------



## belboid (Jan 5, 2021)

redsquirrel said:


> Which one was the scab?


Percy was the scab, Thomas was a blackleg. Trouble in the Shed.


----------



## Argonia (Jan 5, 2021)

If the fucking Tories win the next election it'll be like living in a one party state


----------



## redsquirrel (Jan 5, 2021)

Argonia said:


> If the fucking Tories win the next election it'll be like living in a one party state


Whereas if Labour do win there will be a huge shift in politics?


----------



## Argonia (Jan 5, 2021)

No but at least it would be some change


----------



## redsquirrel (Jan 5, 2021)

Like what? The Labour Party in Wales is still keeping the idea of schools opening in January on the table (I don't think it will happen, the circumstances will not allow it) but where has the LP line been better than the governments? 

Jeremy Hunt has taken a stronger line on worker protection than the LP.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 5, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Huh, just realised that this is the one year anniversary of a BM Blob pamphlet showing up in a Starmer for leader video, a moment of weirdness that's still hard to top:



The wise brothers have repeatedly said that mcdonnel was in some way influenced by them. 

He wasn't


----------



## steeplejack (Jan 5, 2021)

Argonia said:


> If the fucking Tories win the next election it'll be like living in a one party state



England will re-elect the Tories comfortably even if before 2024 they pass the _Slaughter of the Innocents (Firstborn) Act_

It's a bit unfathomable, tbh


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Jan 5, 2021)

Was that Keith I saw on the telly tonight, sat at a desk next to a union-fucking-jack, speaking to the nation, about Britain's struggle against the virus? (Reaches for sick bucket)


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 5, 2021)

"Is there anything that Labour thinks that should be in the measures that isn't there , is there an absence?"

Starmer 'no not an absence,its the messaging'

Well aside from sick pay levels for self isolating, parental leave for those with kids at school, increasing furlough pay, vigorous inspection of health and safety in the work place, prohibiting employers from banning the covid app at work, opposing lay offs and fire and rehire during covid, rate of vaccine inoculations etc etc  and many others things  Yup no absence just the messagings the problem .


----------



## steeplejack (Jan 6, 2021)

Why would employers 'ban the covid app at work'?

I'm not doubting the fact, just don't understand why anyone would do that...


----------



## belboid (Jan 6, 2021)

steeplejack said:


> Why would employers 'ban the covid app at work'?
> 
> I'm not doubting the fact, just don't understand why anyone would do that...


So there’s no reporting, no one else’s app pings when the COVID bearer is near


----------



## steeplejack (Jan 6, 2021)

belboid said:


> So there’s no reporting, no one else’s app pings when the COVID bearer is near



In other words, _"ah'm tryin tae run a business here'_ trumps everything else?

Jesus.


----------



## Gramsci (Jan 6, 2021)

Knotted said:


> To be fair Tony Blair was never this insipid. Even if his ideology lacked anything substantial he didn't just follow the Tories' lead beat for beat when he was in opposition.
> 
> I don't think Starmer has a bigger gameplan, this is all there is and it's not even working in the short term.



Read this by Sienna Rodgers in Guardian. The editor of the Labour List. Always fair and diplomatic.









						Johnson is to blame for the schools fiasco, but there are lessons for Starmer too | Sienna Rodgers
					

Labour needs to be braver on education, and recognise that frontline workers are the experts, says Sienna Rodgers, editor of LabourList




					www.theguardian.com
				




Even she is subtly criticising Starmer for trying to distance himself from the Unions. Where worringly Starmer as leader is to be compared to Blair here is how he purposefullly made clear he was not supporting teaching Unions/ Labour Council in Greenwich or the Labour Mayor of London.

Its like Blairism - make clear that he is  going to be "independent" of groups like Trade Unions and local Labour leaders who are at odds with central Government. He is going to go over the heads of vested interest groups like Teachers and make it clear he is above them. Heard him on radio yesterday saying the time to criticise is not now. We must all follow the new lockdown and pull together as a "nation". He thinks he is addressing a "nation". 

Rodgers is saying in her mild way that Starmer should listen to ordinary workers on the ground. She actually even says the previous leadership would have done this.

I agree Im perplexed at what his gameplan is.

His Ten pledges included standing shoulder to shoulder with Trade Unions. I know Labour party members who looked at the Ten Pledges and supported him as a leader as they thought he would not abandon the more radical poliices of previous leadership but would be more electable.

I relooked at the ten pledges. Im wondering what is going to be quielty dropped. Standing shoulder to shoulder with Trade unions has already fallen.









						10 Pledges | Keir Starmer
					

My promise to you is that I will maintain our radical values and work tirelessly to get Labour in to power – so that we can advance the interests of the people our party was created to serve. Based on the moral case for socialism, here is where I stand. 1. Economic justice Increase income …




					keirstarmer.com
				




A lot in the pledges. Including bringing back into common ownership rail, water, energy and mail. Green New Deal . Abolish tuition fees. I wil wait to see post covid how much of his ten pledges last and makes it into next manifesto.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jan 7, 2021)

Finally, the Revisionist in Chief actually expresses solidarity with workers!


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 7, 2021)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Finally, the Revisionist in Chief actually expresses solidarity with workers!



Like getting a birthday message from Chef and Brewer.


----------



## Chilli.s (Jan 7, 2021)

Well Keith, is that the first time you've noticed that workers get conned by their employers to sign new contracts? It's as if you've been living under a stone for the last 20 years. You might, with luck, wake up tomorrow and realise you're in the labour party. I'm not hopeful though, I guess it'll just be another chapter for your memoir one day.


----------



## agricola (Jan 8, 2021)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Finally, the Revisionist in Chief actually expresses solidarity with workers!




his boiler packed up, then?


----------



## BigMoaner (Jan 8, 2021)

Keith looks like a slighty shit version of those "tall and dangerous" male characters in period costume dramas


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 8, 2021)

BigMoaner said:


> Keith looks like a slighty shit version of those "tall and dangerous" male characters in period costume dramas


which is completely undermined by his reedy voice and shit politics


----------



## BigMoaner (Jan 8, 2021)

DotCommunist said:


> which is completely undermined by his reedy voice and shit politics


oh absoloutly


----------



## BigMoaner (Jan 8, 2021)

poundand Heathcliffe


----------



## BigMoaner (Jan 8, 2021)

Keithcliffe


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 8, 2021)

Didn’t his election video have clips of him at Wapping during the printers dispute ?


----------



## mauvais (Jan 8, 2021)

As what? A computerised printer?


----------



## Shechemite (Jan 9, 2021)

And a curtsy


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 9, 2021)

mauvais said:


> As what? A computerised printer?











						We must stand shoulder to shoulder with our trade unions and together, we can win. | From the Wapping picket line to fighting the mine closures and supporting families affected by the P&O dispute, I’ve always been a proud trade unionist.... | By Keir
					

39K views, 674 likes, 71 loves, 587 comments, 778 shares, Facebook Watch Videos from Keir Starmer: From the Wapping picket line to fighting the mine closures and supporting families affected by the...




					fb.watch


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jan 10, 2021)

It’s almost like Starmer and his advisers have a list of people that they want to piss off in every interview: remainers, the unions and his own party membership for a start.  All of the evidence is that the more ‘the public get to know him’ the more cold they are towards his bland technocrat centralism. This thread is marginally more interesting than the interview itself:


----------



## two sheds (Jan 11, 2021)

Fuck me he's actually said something I agree with.  









						Brexit trade agreement ‘unworkable’ for UK supermarkets, MPs told
					

Retailers and suppliers battling through ‘impenetrable’ red tape that has resulted in empty shelves in Northern Ireland




					www.independent.co.uk
				




I doubt it will go far enough and the language is a bit messianic but still ...



> Britain can rise up after the pandemic by using the creation of the NHS after the Second World War as inspiration, Sir Keir Starmer will say.
> 
> The Labour leader will use a speech to tell the British people they "can build a country worthy of the sacrifices" made during the pandemic in the same way a Labour administration "built the welfare state from the rubble of war" after 1945.
> 
> ...


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Jan 11, 2021)

Keith's doing no doubt









						Labour facing another split over police immunity in 'spy cops' bill
					

Shami Chakrabarti warns of ‘grave risk’ of human rights abuses if bill passes without amendment




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## two sheds (Jan 11, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> Keith's doing no doubt
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes back into character. 

I didn't understand this bit:



> Keir Starmer, the Labour leader, had called on the party to abstain over the bill, arguing that statutory regulation of undercover operatives would have been necessary if the party had been in power, after the government only narrowly won a court case over the issue.



He's saying that we'd have needed laws to prevent abuse only if Labour was in power?? I can't work out whether it's him, or me, or just a mistake in the original which I thought was sloppily written when I first saw it. Otherwise "weaselly" comes to mind.


----------



## ska invita (Jan 11, 2021)

"Family has always been incredibly important to me..........and it means everything to me now that I have a loving family of my own."

If the rumour I've heard about Starmer from a (trustworthy - but i guess rumour spreading) person who is a regular member at Starmer's CLP, the "family man" angle might be one that comes back to bite him a la John Major and his Back to Basics family shtick.


----------



## two sheds (Jan 11, 2021)

with Edwina Curry?


----------



## editor (Jan 11, 2021)

He's just a useless, posh damp rag, isn't he?


----------



## Chilli.s (Jan 11, 2021)

He's at the top of his game.


----------



## Deej1992 (Jan 11, 2021)

Was toe-curling watching him on Andrew Marr yesterday defending his desire to want to keep schools open.


----------



## magneze (Jan 11, 2021)

Backdrop for today:

Secure our economy
Protect our NHS 
Rebuild our country

Interesting order.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jan 11, 2021)

ska invita said:


> "Family has always been incredibly important to me..........and it means everything to me now that I have a loving family of my own."



frankly, 

i don't think he's actually said anything of substance (which doesn't come as a huge surprise) and i would be very happy to be proved wrong, but usually when politicians start talking about 'families' or 'family values' it's usually dog-whistle for homophobia and blaming single mothers for just about everything...


----------



## Shechemite (Jan 11, 2021)

Real money for real families


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 11, 2021)

magneze said:


> Backdrop for today:
> 
> Secure our economy
> Protect our NHS
> ...



The PR people haggled him down to that from his original version:

_Purge Lefties
Lick Tory Boots
Run Down Cyclists In Your Fucking SUV_


----------



## Shechemite (Jan 11, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> _Purge Lefties
> Run Down Cyclists In Your Fucking SUV_



Prefer this one - none of the bootlicking  though


----------



## Shechemite (Jan 11, 2021)

You’d need a third line though 

Secure economies for secure families


----------



## 8ball (Jan 12, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Fuck me he's actually said something I agree with.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Tried clicking on it and got something totally different.
You sure it wasn’t one of those spoof stories they use as a placeholder and occasionally accidentally put on the live site?

Might be just my phone being weird...


----------



## 8ball (Jan 12, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> It’s almost like Starmer and his advisers have a list of people that they want to piss off in every interview: remainers, the unions and his own party membership for a start.  All of the evidence is that the more ‘the public get to know him’ the more cold they are towards his bland technocrat centralism. This thread is marginally more interesting than the interview itself:




Was this in the same talk as when he said Johnson’s indecision was costing lives?


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jan 12, 2021)

8ball said:


> Tried clicking on it and got something totally different.



same here


----------



## ska invita (Jan 12, 2021)

Am expecting a cover up, so this is confirmation bias to me, lets see what little happens


----------



## two sheds (Jan 12, 2021)

8ball said:


> Tried clicking on it and got something totally different.
> You sure it wasn’t one of those spoof stories they use as a placeholder and occasionally accidentally put on the live site?
> 
> Might be just my phone being weird...



It was one of the combination news stories they do - several under one headline. I wondered whether it would change so I made sure I quoted it. Did seem out of character, one of Corbyn's policies while pretending it wasn't.

Funny - I can't see it when I search for the quote under the Guardian - here's a more respected source for the story though: 









						Starmer: Use NHS creation as inspiration for post-pandemic recovery
					

The Labour leader will use a speech on Monday to accuse Boris Johnson of having the ‘wrong priorities for Britain’.




					www.alloaadvertiser.com


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 12, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Fuck me he's actually said something I agree with.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He's actually reading it, he employs a speech writer to do the thinking for him


----------



## two sheds (Jan 12, 2021)

Good point well made


----------



## two sheds (Jan 16, 2021)

Fuck me this is a relief, could have gone two ways 









						Labour leader Keir Starmer to declare himself ‘pro-American but anti-Trump’
					

Latest step in bid to draw a line under Corbyn era




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## andysays (Jan 20, 2021)

Is Starmer now effectively siding with Patel and arguing for closed borders?


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 21, 2021)

steveseagull said:


> Sir Starmer was on LBC this morning for a Call Keith session with Nick Ferrari. Some white supremacist loon calls up and starts banging on about the replacement conspiracy theory. Does Keith call out white supremacy on a national radio station?  Oh no....
> 
> Peak centrism.


Going back to this:



The claim is that the fascist was invited on by lbc after previously calling that other prick (Not O' Brien) Maajid Nawaz and going straight into their/his/(O' Brien's?) contact book. Does anyone with private eye know if there were further paragraphs?


----------



## belboid (Jan 21, 2021)

Yup


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 22, 2021)




----------



## vanya (Jan 22, 2021)

Starmer getting nowhere fast. 









						Starmerism and Fabianism
					

I know any other leader would be 20 points head of the Tories by now, but what do traditional elements of the centre left establishment thi...




					averypublicsociologist.blogspot.com
				






> I know any other leader would be 20 points head of the Tories by now, but what do traditional elements of the centre left establishment think of Keir Starmer's performance? As if answering this rarely-asked question, the Fabian Society's Andrew Harrop has been kind to offer this hottake. Writing following the first Fabian conference in years where the centre and the right are back in charge of the party, it seems an aposite time for them to reflect on the "achievements" thus far and where Keir Starmer looks like he's going.
> 
> First, we hear Andrew's praise for the shadow cabinet as it demonstrated a "striking unity of purpose and tone", and this came through in contributions that were "values-driven but with a practical bent". This showed a middle way (_not_ a third way) between "the rudderless managerialism of new Labour, when at its most centrist, and the utopian excesses of the party’s recent pipedreams." Anyone playing centrist bingo as they read the piece can cross off the unironic deployment of "team of grown-ups", and thankfully we learn they're determined about winning power. Because, in case you didn't know, Labour has to win elections. Apparently, policy and pronouncements are judged by rebuilding relationships with voters (funny way of showing it), and now Labour understands the coalition of voters it has to assemble. "There was much talk of reconnecting with lost working-class seats, but not at the expense of the party’s values or urban voters", he breathlessly writes. It's going to take more than speeches with Union Jack bunting and the assumption the left have nowhere to go, I'm afraid. Summing up, Andrew says "with a frontbench team focused on unity, competence, ambition and electability the building blocks for a return to power are there."
> 
> ...


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 23, 2021)




----------



## Idris2002 (Feb 1, 2021)




----------



## two sheds (Feb 2, 2021)

OK I think I might have to rejoin









						Leak reveals Labour plan to focus on flag and patriotism to win back voters
					

Exclusive: leaked internal strategy presentation reveals plan to ‘change the party’s body language’




					www.theguardian.com
				






> Labour must make “use of the [union] flag, veterans [and] dressing smartly” as part of a radical rebranding to help it win back the trust of disillusioned voters, according to a leaked internal strategy presentation.
> 
> The presentation, which has been seen and heard by the Guardian, is aimed at what the party calls “foundation seats”, a new term for the “red wall” constituencies that handed Boris Johnson a landslide in 2019, and other seats it fears could also turn blue. It will be seen as a marker of how concerned Labour is about its electoral position.



"Go back to your constituencies and prepare for a kicking"


----------



## JTG (Feb 2, 2021)




----------



## Quote (Feb 2, 2021)

“The use of the flag, veterans, dressing smartly at the war memorial etc give voters a sense of authentic values alignment.”  

Sounds great.


----------



## JTG (Feb 2, 2021)

Fuck dressing smartly


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Feb 2, 2021)

If you join up, setting your membership direct debit date a month in the future, can you then resign in protest at all this patriotic bollocks before your subscription gets taken from your account? Will that count as a resignation?


----------



## JTG (Feb 2, 2021)

Meanwhile, Labour Black Socialists are unhappy:









						'Black people do not believe Starmer is fighting for us' - Not The Andrew Marr Show
					

Andrea Gilbert of Labour Black Socialists spoke out against Keir Starmer




					labourgrassroots.com


----------



## JTG (Feb 2, 2021)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> If you join up, setting your membership direct debit date a month in the future, can you then resign in protest at all this patriotic bollocks before your subscription gets taken from your account? Will that count as a resignation?


Dunno but do it anyway for a laugh


----------



## two sheds (Feb 2, 2021)

JTG said:


> Fuck dressing smartly


He's discarding _*everything *_Corbyn stood for


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Feb 2, 2021)

I bet he's practicing getting his forehead onto the floor when he bows too.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 2, 2021)

Only way to please the Sun editors


----------



## JTG (Feb 2, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Only way to please the Sun editors


Only way to go for the full house of alienated core voters


----------



## JTG (Feb 2, 2021)




----------



## two sheds (Feb 2, 2021)

Must have been a toss-up between that and full employment, proper working wage and lower rents.


----------



## JTG (Feb 2, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Must have been a toss-up between that and full employment, proper working wage and lower rents.


tbf buying a bit of cloth to stand behind you while you're speaking is cheaper


----------



## JTG (Feb 2, 2021)

Sorry for the tweet fest but this whole thing is so bad


----------



## Chilli.s (Feb 2, 2021)

Disregarding both authentic and alignment, I still wonder what their values are


----------



## JTG (Feb 2, 2021)

Chilli.s said:


> Disregarding both authentic and alignment, I still wonder what their values are


Everybody can see they have none, it stands out an absolute mile


----------



## Quote (Feb 2, 2021)

Chilli.s said:


> Disregarding both authentic and alignment, I still wonder what their values are



Whatever the focus groups tell them I think.


----------



## JTG (Feb 2, 2021)

Chilli.s said:


> Disregarding both authentic and alignment, I still wonder what their values are


----------



## agricola (Feb 2, 2021)

two sheds said:


> OK I think I might have to rejoin
> 
> 
> 
> ...



wow


----------



## tim (Feb 2, 2021)

If you plan to fake authenticity, it's probably best not to publish that plan in a Labour Party policy document.


----------



## JTG (Feb 2, 2021)

Meanwhile:








						Ex-officials suspended over leaked report have been readmitted to Labour – LabourList
					

Former Labour officials suspended over a controversial internal report on the handling of disciplinary cases during the Jeremy Corbyn era – which was leaked online…




					labourlist.org


----------



## SpookyFrank (Feb 2, 2021)

Quote said:


> “The use of the flag, veterans, dressing smartly at the war memorial etc give voters a sense of authentic values alignment.”
> 
> Sounds great.



'Authentic values alignment' is a phrase only someone with no values could come up with.


----------



## Raheem (Feb 2, 2021)

"We're still flagging."

"Well, that's exactly what the consultants said we should do..."


----------



## teqniq (Feb 2, 2021)

It's all just so completely fucking dire.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Feb 2, 2021)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> If you join up, setting your membership direct debit date a month in the future, can you then resign in protest at all this patriotic bollocks before your subscription gets taken from your account? Will that count as a resignation?



Keith will have you purged before you get the chance to resign.


----------



## JTG (Feb 2, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> 'Authentic values alignment' is a phrase only someone with no values could come up with.


I was always suspicious of the sort of people who went on about 'Labour values' when I was in the party


----------



## hitmouse (Feb 2, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> 'Authentic values alignment' is a phrase only someone with no values could come up with.


I enjoyed the person in the comments of one of the linked posts above saying it was one of the weaker late period Fall albums.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Feb 2, 2021)

teqniq said:


> It's all just so completely fucking dire.



Keep trying to think of something else to say but this is the crux of it really.


----------



## Raheem (Feb 2, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Keep trying to think of something else to say but this is the crux of it really.


At least they're incompetent enough to have allowed it to be leaked, though.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Feb 2, 2021)

Raheem said:


> At least they're incompetent enough to have allowed it to be leaked, though.



They're probably too dense to even get why it makes them look bad.


----------



## ska invita (Feb 2, 2021)

Quote said:


> “The use of the flag, veterans, dressing smartly at the war memorial etc give voters a sense of authentic values alignment.”
> 
> Sounds great.



I wonder just how they'll use veterans


----------



## JTG (Feb 2, 2021)

Some people are pleased anyway:


----------



## Raheem (Feb 2, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> They're probably too dense to even get why it makes them look bad.


They can always hire a consultancy firm to figure it out for them.


----------



## tony.c (Feb 2, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Keith will have you purged before you get the chance to resign.


I cancelled my direct debit before they could suspend me for supporting Palestinians.
I got an email asking me why I had ceased membership and I told them. I got a reply saying someone would ring me to discuss it. That was six months ago.
I guess I'm on a list to be denied membership if I should ever apply again.


----------



## JTG (Feb 2, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> They're probably too dense to even get why it makes them look bad.


Dunno about dense. Completely vapid hollow vessels whose souls were traded away long ago in return for a safe seat and a turn on the Question Time treadmill. Dense doesn't really come into it. I mean, at least the Tory cabinet appear to have some personality and/or motivation, even if that's "self interested spiv on the make". At least it's an angle that people can relate to. The Labour front bench though... they're just empty.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Feb 2, 2021)

They're literally trying to cosplay as Tories.


----------



## JTG (Feb 2, 2021)

tony.c said:


> I cancelled my direct debit before they could suspend me for supporting Palestinians.
> I got an email asking me why I had ceased membership and I told them. I got a reply saying someone would ring me to discuss it. That was six months ago.
> I guess I'm on a list to be denied membership if I should ever apply again.


I left when Debonnaire held meetings with the Landlords Association but couldn't be arsed with Acorn until they kicked up a fuss. Not that that was particularly surprising or egregious by their standards, just that it was clear at that stage that whatever chink of light there had been was gone forever. The CLP secretary asked me why I left, I ignored her because she's a massive Terf and I cba. They still send me begging emails every now and again. Fuck off like.

Today some centrist dad type on Twitter told me he was glad I'd left and not to come back. Which was fine as it pretty much persuaded me to vote against the cunts rather than just abstain. Fuck em


----------



## BristolEcho (Feb 2, 2021)

JTG said:


> I left when Debonnaire held meetings with the Landlords Association but couldn't be arsed with Acorn until they kicked up a fuss. Not that that was particularly surprising or egregious by their standards, just that it was clear at that stage that whatever chink of light there had been was gone forever. The CLP secretary asked me why I left, I ignored her because she's a massive Terf and I cba. They still send me begging emails every now and again. Fuck off like.
> 
> Today some centrist dad type on Twitter told me he was glad I'd left and not to come back. Which was fine as it pretty much persuaded me to vote against the cunts rather than just abstain. Fuck em



Didn't know that about Thangham and Acorn. Is there anything about it online?


----------



## JTG (Feb 2, 2021)

BristolEcho said:


> Didn't know that about Thangham and Acorn. Is there anything about it online?


Erm, maybe on Acorn's twitter timeline from last spring? She did eventually meet with them after they put a lot of pressure on but it's that her natural instinct was to just talk to the landlords.
Of course now she's busy ignoring one of the biggest student rent strikes in the country in her own constituency on the grounds that supporting them would be illegal or something


----------



## BristolEcho (Feb 2, 2021)

JTG said:


> Erm, maybe on Acorn's twitter timeline from last spring? She did eventually meet with them after they put a lot of pressure on but it's that her natural instinct was to just talk to the landlords.
> Of course now she's busy ignoring one of the biggest student rent strikes in the country in her own constituency on the grounds that supporting them would be illegal or something



Ah okay last year! I did miss it to then. I'm not on social media much at the moment. Not entirely surprised as you said.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 2, 2021)

Lord Camomile said:


> They're literally trying to cosplay as Tories.


and even the lamest tories are laughing at them...


----------



## Flavour (Feb 2, 2021)

The labour party is so dead. 
This is pathetic. Nobody is going to be convinced to switch to voting Labour from whatever it was they voted before by this crap-guest-on-Would-I-Lie-To-You impersonation of tories. It's deeply tragic.


----------



## JTG (Feb 2, 2021)

BristolEcho said:


> Ah okay last year! I did miss it to then. I'm not on social media much at the moment. Not entirely surprised as you said.


Yeah it was during the early first lockdown as various groups were trying to appeal for support. No surprise that the Tories prioritised landlords over renters and then Labour fell into line as well. It's an instinct I guess


----------



## JTG (Feb 2, 2021)

Flavour said:


> The labour party is so dead.
> This is pathetic. Nobody is going to be convinced to switch to voting Labour from whatever it was they voted before by this crap-guest-on-Would-I-Lie-To-You impersonation of tories. It's deeply tragic.


Quite a few people will be turned off however


----------



## Humberto (Feb 3, 2021)

I guess Starmer is what he is; a no-hoper result of constant Labour capitulation to a rigged system.


----------



## Wilf (Feb 3, 2021)

I can't be arsed even reading what Labour is planning, it's all so shit, so desperate, so awful. Whatever it is, it's actually a stick for the tories ot beat them with. Labour does some toe curling stuff about flags and patriotism and the next time they fail to back the monarchy, the army or fuck knows what, boris johnson has a ready made line in place about the patriotism being merely a cynical ploy (as indeed it is).


----------



## krtek a houby (Feb 3, 2021)

Let him dangle.


----------



## JTG (Feb 3, 2021)

An oldie but always a goodie


----------



## mx wcfc (Feb 3, 2021)

JTG said:


> Quite a few people will be turned off however


I was writing what I thought was an astute political comment in reply to this.  I then realised it was half past 12 and I was pissed, so it was probably a good idea to leave it.    🤣 

Rock on Comrade.


----------



## Wilf (Feb 3, 2021)

'The north don't seem to trust Labour, what shall we do'
- oh, give them some flags, they love that kind of thing.

'Could we not start organising in communities, coming up with some policies around working class interests?'
- Nah, flags it is.


----------



## JTG (Feb 3, 2021)

Wilf said:


> 'The north don't seem to trust Labour, what shall we do'
> - oh, give them some flags, they love that kind of thing.
> 
> 'Could we not start organising in communities, coming up with some policies around working class interests?'
> - Nah, flags it is.


[A few months/years later]

"So, anyone got any ideas as to why everyone in the big cities stopped voting for us?"


----------



## Roadkill (Feb 3, 2021)

JTG said:


> [A few months/years later]
> 
> "So, anyone got any ideas as to why everyone in the big cities stopped voting for us?"



And everybody not of pensionable age.

This is so short sighted. Labour's surge of support in 2017 came from young people, and it's they who Labour should be focusing on now, not the kind of stupid old gammon who 'lent their vote' to 'Boris' in 2019. They'll all be dead in a decade.


----------



## Chilli.s (Feb 3, 2021)

New suits and dresses all round all on expenses


----------



## TopCat (Feb 3, 2021)

This development does not incline me to vote labour again.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 3, 2021)

innit?


----------



## Sprocket. (Feb 3, 2021)

ska invita said:


> I wonder just how they'll use veterans


Kneel on their necks until they complete the direct debit form.
Diabolical straw grabbing by Sir Keith Faker and his PR fools.
They’ll be celebrating Trafalgar Day next.
“We need inclusivity” 
“Quick, get the flags out!”


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Feb 3, 2021)

Roadkill said:


> And everybody not of pensionable age.
> 
> This is so short sighted. Labour's surge of support in 2017 came from young people, and it's they who Labour should be focusing on now, not the kind of stupid old gammon who 'lent their vote' to 'Boris' in 2019. They'll all be dead in a decade.



Every sentence you’ve written is wrong. Factually and politically. Well done.


----------



## Roadkill (Feb 3, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Every sentence you’ve written is wrong. Factually and politically. Well done.



I need no lessons in being wrong from you.


----------



## killer b (Feb 3, 2021)

Have to say that the concept of voters 'lending the tories their vote' isn't something I've seen supported very much by evidence. Personal experience and polling I've seen both suggest people who voted tory last time have remained tory on the whole.


----------



## redsquirrel (Feb 3, 2021)

Roadkill said:


> This is so short sighted. Labour's surge of support in 2017 came from young people, and it's they who Labour should be focusing on now, not the kind of stupid old gammon who 'lent their vote' to 'Boris' in 2019. They'll all be dead in a decade.


_The demographics are against the Tories! _

How long have we being hearing this one. The evidence of the "youthquake" in 2017 is disputed at best. And then there is the politics of writing off people because of their age.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Feb 3, 2021)

Wilf said:


> 'The north don't seem to trust Labour, what shall we do'
> - oh, give them some flags, they love that kind of thing.
> 
> 'Could we not start organising in communities, coming up with some policies around working class interests?'
> - Nah, flags it is.



Its not the policy as such that’s offensive. It’s the fact that it’s contrived and will be widely perceived as such.

You can’t fake a connection with ordinary communities. The concept of the nation state is important to most people, an embedded reality  that continues to elude much of what passes for the left. But, as Wilf suggests, the way that any party that wants to deeply connect translates that is key. At this moment that practically means worked out plans to rebuild and invest in communities, it means a jobs plan targeted at these communities and most of all it’s clear signals that these communities are not forgotten. Starmer’s approach is both deeply cynical and, as a result, won’t generate any cut through. Piss poor


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Feb 3, 2021)

Roadkill said:


> I need no lessons in being wrong from you.



well you need them from someone to save further embarrassment.


----------



## Roadkill (Feb 3, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> well you need them from someone to save further embarrassment.



I need no lessons from, and am not interested in the opinions of, someone whose posts read like a time machine from about 1981.    I've also far too much to do today to have time for an argument.


----------



## andysays (Feb 3, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Its not the policy that’s offensive. It’s the fact that it’s contrived and will be widely perceived as such.
> 
> You can’t fake a connection with ordinary communities. The concept of the nation state is important to most people, an embedded reality  that continues to elude much of what passes for the left. But, as Wilf suggests, the way that any party that wants to deeply connect translates that is key. At this moment that practically means worked out plans to rebuild and invest in communities, it means a jobs plan targeted at these communities and most of all it’s clear signals that these communities are not forgotten. Starmer’s approach is both deeply cynical and, as a result, won’t generate any cut through. Piss poor


I think the policy is offensive actually, and will be perceived as such by at least a section of Labour's existing and potential voting base.

The fact that they've chosen to lead with this rather than any hint of a policy which might improve people's material conditions is similarly offensive, it's an indication that they actually think this sort of bollocks is more important. 

And I'm not convinced that it necessarily is contrived, tbh, I'm sure that at least some of them really believe in this sort of simplistic patriotism.


----------



## hitmouse (Feb 3, 2021)

ska invita said:


> I wonder just how they'll use veterans


That bit does make me keep thinking of a certain Manics lyric: "Wheeled out once a year, a cenotaph souvenir.../I see liberals/I am just a fashion accessory",


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Feb 3, 2021)

andysays said:


> I think the policy is offensive actually, and will be perceived as such by at least a section of Labour's existing and potential voting base.
> 
> The fact that they've chosen to lead with this rather than any hint of a policy which might improve people's material conditions is similarly offensive, it's an indication that they actually think this sort of bollocks is more important.
> 
> And I'm not convinced that it necessarily is contrived, tbh, I'm sure that at least some of them really believe in this sort of simplistic patriotism.



We aren’t talking about flag waving patriotism, or at least I’m not. I’m talking about the existence, which I think is multigenerational to a greater extent than commonly recognised, that material conditions are intimately bound up and dependent on a strong and healthy nation state. Class gains in turn were popularly understood to strengthen the nation state and boundaries. You can overlay, and I think I’ve seen someone do this (Alistair Reid?), employment levels and wage gains ebb and flow directly in correlation to the broader economic performance of the state.

We can criticise this understanding, we can expose the lies and the oppression of others it was constructed upon. We can point out that there are no real shared interests, but to deny that this understanding exists or to pretend that’s it’s not the point where we have to start from would be a mistake.

ETA: the leaked document doesn’t engage with any of that. Instead, it does seem to suggest that waving the flag is all that’s required. It reveals a deep misunderstanding of the processes at work


----------



## kebabking (Feb 3, 2021)

It is cynical, and it is contrived, and I rather doubt it will have any immediate impact, but on the other hand it does appear that this _Politics 101 - Hard of Thinking Edition _may be actually necessary for the LP.

Can I ask the assembled political geniuses how they think _this _

goes down amongst the electorate, what at the exact same time, the exact same people get their collective knickers in a twist about Sir Keith standing next to a Union Flag?

Do any of the _spectacular tacticians _genuinely beleive that when the electorate in Hull, or Bolton, or Sunderland, or West Bromwich - or indeed South Gloucestershire - see that juxtaposition, their gut reaction is '_Labour is us...'?_

wrapping itself in the flag will not make Labours long and complex 'to do' list go away, but a deep feeling amongst large sections of its potential votes that 'Labour' is far more comfortable waving Palestinian, or Venezuelan flags than being seen next to their own harms them, and in a post-referendum, identity driven politics, it will harm them more.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 3, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> We aren’t talking about flag waving patriotism, or at least I’m not. I’m talking about the existence, which I think is multigenerational to a greater extent than commonly recognised, that material conditions are intimately bound up and dependent on a strong and healthy nation state. Class gains in turn were popularly understood to strengthen the nation state and boundaries. You can overlay, and I think I’ve seen someone do this (Alistair Reid?), employment levels and wage gains ebb and flow directly in correlation to the broader economic performance of the state.
> 
> We can criticise this understanding, we can expose the lies and the oppression of others it was constructed upon. We can point out that there are no real shared interests, but to deny that this understanding exists or to pretend that’s it’s not the point where we have to start from would be a mistake.
> 
> ETA: the leaked document doesn’t engage with any of that. Instead, it does seem to suggest that waving the flag is all that’s required. It reveals a deep misunderstanding of the processes at work


I suspect that the brand agency to which Starmer has turned for this re-branding advice have based the guff sold on the sort of liberal identity segmentation presented in Maria Sobolewska and Robert Ford’s _Brexitland _as reviewed by Will Davies in the LRB:



> At the core of their analysis is a typology of three different identities, each defined by their orientation to nation and ethnicity.
> 
> The first is ‘conviction liberals’, a group which sees ethnic diversity as a good in its own right, to be assertively defended.
> 
> ...



Looks like the brand agency has told Starmer to take for granted huge sections of his party's core and go all out to symbolically appeal to the 'identity conservatives'.


----------



## killer b (Feb 3, 2021)

kebabking said:


> It is cynical, and it is contrived, and I rather doubt it will have any immediate impact, but on the other hand it does appear that this _Politics 101 - Hard of Thinking Edition _may be actually necessary for the LP.
> 
> Can I ask the assembled political geniuses how they think _this _
> View attachment 252553
> ...


Is that stuff going to stop under Starmer though? Can't see it - it's the activists who do all that stuff, and whatever silly strategy documents the leadership commission the activists will carry on draping themselves in the flag of Palestine for The Sun to photograph.

I'm interested in the idea that the electorate will see a Labour pivot to flags 'n' soldiers as contrived when the equally contrived use of those tropes by the tories (and by Labour leaderships of the past) is seen by the same people as authentic - whats the difference?


----------



## ska invita (Feb 3, 2021)

killer b said:


> Have to say that the concept of voters 'lending the tories their vote' isn't something I've seen supported very much by evidence. Personal experience and polling I've seen both suggest people who voted tory last time have remained tory on the whole.



Re The Red Wall I saw these the other day, shows some key seats and how Labour have been slowly deflating over the last 70 years, other than Blair in 97 and Corbyn in 2017






















Its an oversimplification from stats but the suggestion being that Labour is in long slow terminal decline in these areas...which begs the question why.

The idea that there aren't enough flags and veterans involved is the crassest reading, only possible by outsiders. Its like anthropologists in the Victorian era making bad assumptions about some far away tribe.
For me it boils down to that this Labour lot fear the British public (working class and beyond) and have to ask others What are they like.

Blair was a public school boy but I think he was genuinely comfortable with the flags and the army and with people in general.
Corbyn is absolutely happiest as a constituency MP, caring and helping the great british public. A bit awk with the military bit cos imperialism, but even that wasnt enough to stop him get a massive boost in support.
Starmer is absolutely happiest at a heads of police gala dinner.

What Labour "need to do" is not be led by professional snobs. Everyone can tell - you cant hide these things.
Even Boris Johnson is less of a snob than Labour HQ.

This might just be the defining moment in Labour politics of my lifetime:








						A British politician lost her job over a tweet: how to explain it to someone outside the UK
					

If you’re not British, Labour politician Emily Thornberry’s resignation for posting a tweet of a house, some flags and a van may seem baffling. Here’s why it happened




					www.theguardian.com
				



ETA: and following that she was being seriously talked about as a future leader


----------



## ska invita (Feb 3, 2021)

kebabking said:


> It is cynical, and it is contrived, and I rather doubt it will have any immediate impact, but on the other hand it does appear that this _Politics 101 - Hard of Thinking Edition _may be actually necessary for the LP.
> 
> Can I ask the assembled political geniuses how they think _this _
> View attachment 252553
> ...



The British flag and the Palestinian flag are not equal - Palestine is wiped off the map and its people living in open air concentration camps
False equivalence


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 3, 2021)

kebabking said:


> It is cynical, and it is contrived, and I rather doubt it will have any immediate impact, but on the other hand it does appear that this _Politics 101 - Hard of Thinking Edition _may be actually necessary for the LP.
> 
> Can I ask the assembled political geniuses how they think _this _
> View attachment 252553
> ...


I think a party at ease with itself doesn't need to wrap itself in the national flag.


----------



## ska invita (Feb 3, 2021)

killer b said:


> I'm interested in the idea that the electorate will see a Labour pivot to flags 'n' soldiers as contrived when the equally contrived use of those tropes by the tories (and by Labour leaderships of the past) is seen by the same people as authentic - whats the difference?


Tories have deep historic and authentic pro-military (imperialist) ties and view of history.  People understand that innately.

Squaring the issue of Labours relationship to the military is best done somewhat like Trump did: "I will not let you be sent into unnecessary wars. Veterans don't get enough support". Job done. Show you  actually care about the people doing the job, and their families.


----------



## JTG (Feb 3, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Re The Red Wall I saw these the other day, shows some key seats and how Labour have been slowly deflating over the last 70 years, other than Blair in 97 and Corbyn in 2017
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They're places with an older demographic whose younger people have fucked off to the cities for work and those left behind are older home owning pensioners. It's not really that deep or hard to understand.

Ed Miliband's report into the election defeat picked up on the slow decline of the Labour vote over the previous quarter century in many of those areas but it's far easier for the leadership to point the finger at Corbyn and wave a flag instead rather than do the hard yards


----------



## ska invita (Feb 3, 2021)

JTG said:


> it's far easier for the leadership to point the finger at Corbyn and wave a flag instead rather than do the hard yards


Its disingenuous because Corbyn did really well, but like medieval Christians learning the earth goes round the sun they refuse to fucking hear it the cunts, i'm so sick of the sight of them


----------



## TopCat (Feb 3, 2021)

Roadkill said:


> And everybody not of pensionable age.
> 
> This is so short sighted. Labour's surge of support in 2017 came from young people, and it's they who Labour should be focusing on now, not the kind of stupid old gammon who 'lent their vote' to 'Boris' in 2019. They'll all be dead in a decade.


This is cuntish  even for you.


----------



## JTG (Feb 3, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Its disingenuous because Corbyn did really well, but like medieval Christians learning the earth goes round the sun they refuse to fucking hear it the cunts, i'm so sick of the sight of them


Corbyn derangement syndrome is real. Prevents anyone from a good faith assessment of the pros and cons of the period and leads to a determination to scrub the party clean of any trace of the era. Upshot is that in places like Bristol, as I've said in the last day or so, they're busy suspending all their young, imaginative campaigners who've built networks across the city in housing/food campaigns and will probably lose seats to the Greens as a result. But at least they'll have their party back


----------



## kebabking (Feb 3, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> I think a party at ease with itself doesn't need to wrap itself in the national flag.



You hit the main on the head, but from the wrong direction.

The party only needs to be seen to wrap itself in the flag because it's pretty obvious to all that the _party _is not at ease with the country/nation/society it serves and seeks to represent. It's pretty obvious that large parts of the party, both politicians and activist, have little but utter contempt and bewilderment for large slices of its professed electorate and target audience; they are thought, thick, racist, with nowhere else to go, dreadful little Englanders.

While that may always have been so, it has become a problem the party has to address because because it's all become very public.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 3, 2021)

kebabking said:


> You hit the main on the head, but from the wrong direction.
> 
> The party only needs to be seen to wrap itself in the flag because it's pretty obvious to all that the _party _is not at ease with the country/nation/society it serves and seeks to represent. It's pretty obvious that large parts of the party, both politicians and activist, have little but utter contempt and bewilderment for large slices of its professed electorate and target audience; they are thought, thick, racist, with nowhere else to go, dreadful little Englanders.
> 
> While that may always have been so, it has become a problem the party has to address because because it's all become very public.


Tbh the problem the labour party is really ducking away from is it has no politics


----------



## TopCat (Feb 3, 2021)

If the LP wants to win it will have to reorient itself to the working class not the middle classes. We can have that lot as allies (never trust them though) but not directing the political direction.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 3, 2021)

kebabking said:


> You hit the main on the head, but from the wrong direction.
> 
> The party only needs to be seen to wrap itself in the flag because it's pretty obvious to all that the _party _is not at ease with the country/nation/society it serves and seeks to represent. It's pretty obvious that large parts of the party, both politicians and activist, have little but utter contempt and bewilderment for large slices of its professed electorate and target audience; they are thought, thick, racist, with nowhere else to go, dreadful little Englanders.
> 
> While that may always have been so, it has become a problem the party has to address because because it's all become very public.


And I expect most of the votes the party gets are for an imaginary party, a mythical labour party, and not for the party as it is today.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 3, 2021)

TopCat said:


> If the LP wants to win it will have to reorient itself to the working class not the middle classes. We can have that lot as allies (never trust them though) but not directing the political direction.


It will never reorient itself


----------



## hitmouse (Feb 3, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Its disingenuous because Corbyn did really well, but like medieval Christians learning the earth goes round the sun they refuse to fucking hear it the cunts, i'm so sick of the sight of them


Well, I for one am glad to see the party returning to the proven formula for electoral success that worked so well for Miliband.


----------



## JTG (Feb 3, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Tbh the problem the labour party is really ducking away from is it has no politics


Like I said up thread, it's empty shell careerism from people who've been climbing that pole since they joined Labour Students or equivalently weird organisations. Often following family members onto the party/trade union gravy train.

What I'm observing atm here is a bunch of people fighting for their lives in tenants unions, food organisations, unions for precarious workers etc who joined Labour out of hope in the last five years and are now looking up in vain for any sign of a helping hand from the party bureaucracy. There is none.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 3, 2021)

Roadkill said:


> And everybody not of pensionable age.
> 
> This is so short sighted. Labour's surge of support in 2017 came from young people, and it's they who Labour should be focusing on now, not the kind of stupid old gammon who 'lent their vote' to 'Boris' in 2019. They'll all be dead in a decade.


Young people will never have known the betrayal felt when the LP introduced fees for he under blair. But they will recall how their hopes were disdained by the SKS leadership. I suspect many young people will not be inclined to invest their votes in the lp now sks has indicated how he wants to proceed. You'll be begging those daft gammons for their votes in 2024


----------



## emanymton (Feb 3, 2021)

Wilf said:


> 'The north don't seem to trust Labour, what shall we do'
> - oh, give them some flags, they love that kind of thing.
> 
> 'Could we not start organising in communities, coming up with some policies around working class interests?'
> - Nah, flags it is.


Thing is, despise what some people are saying they don't make this choice because they lack any values or principles. But because only one of those choices fits with their values.


----------



## JTG (Feb 3, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Young people will never have known the betrayal felt when the LP introduced fees for he under blair. But they will recall how their hopes were disdained by the SKS leadership. I suspect many young people will not be inclined to invest their votes in the lp now sks has indicated how he wants to proceed.


Yeah I mean it's undeniable that there was a surge of support for Labour from younger people as well as a lot of older lefties who departed after 1997. I think those charts showing the scale of support for Labour amongst the under 30s (especially once compared for the same cohort in 1979 or 1983 say) are pretty staggering. But they're not, by definition, traditional Labour voters. Because they've only been voting for a couple of General Elections. They can find something else to do, especially given the issues of precarious jobs, housing and vast debt are not going away for them


----------



## Sprocket. (Feb 3, 2021)

To be fair they obviously see gaining some purchase from Popularism and they have been trying their best to ditch socialism and the Working Class since Castle and Kinnock.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 3, 2021)

Sprocket. said:


> To be fair they obviously see gaining some purchase from Popularism and they have been trying their best to ditch socialism and the Working Class since Castle and Kinnock.


another Italian import, can you tell me more about it?


----------



## Sprocket. (Feb 3, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> another Italian import, can you tell me more about it?


Only the Cheese and Worms aspect, regarding Italian politics.


----------



## JTG (Feb 3, 2021)

TopCat said:


> If the LP wants to win it will have to reorient itself to the working class not the middle classes. We can have that lot as allies (never trust them though) but not directing the political direction.


I think it also needs to decide what/who the working classes actually are. Possibly not deranged right wing landlords and business owners with a chip on their shoulders who get portrayed as w/c on Question Time or in the Guardian because they happen to have a regional accent


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Feb 3, 2021)

TopCat said:


> If the LP wants to win it will have to reorient itself to the working class not the middle classes. We can have that lot as allies (never trust them though) but not directing the political direction.



It’s interesting that Clive Lewis is leading the charge against the report. Fine, so what it his solution/alternative? A popular front with the LDs, Greens and Nats etc. An alliance based upon elite liberalism. The active writing off of swathes of the working class who are ‘nativist’.

I don’t actually give a toss what the LP does but let’s at least recognise the debate now opening up in their ranks.


----------



## JTG (Feb 3, 2021)

JTG said:


> I think it also needs to decide what/who the working classes actually are. Possibly not deranged right wing landlords and business owners with a chip on their shoulders who get portrayed as w/c on Question Time or in the Guardian because they happen to have a regional accent


I'll add to this that one severe blocker in place for an analysis of this type is that the ranks of the PLP are swollen with exactly this type of person


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Feb 3, 2021)

Our national anthem is known as "God save the Queen". So we sing a song to someone who doesn't exist about someone who shouldn't exist.
Our national flag supposedly combines bits of English, Scottish and Irish flags. Not Welsh or Cornish, note, and most of Ireland is no longer relevant. Scotland may not be before long.
How can anyone with a brain think that going along with this crap can, in any long-term way, be a good thing?


----------



## ska invita (Feb 3, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> It’s interesting that Clive Lewis is leading the charge against the report. Fine, so what it his solution/alternative? A popular front with the LDs, Greens and Nats etc. An alliance based upon elite liberalism. The active writing off of swathes of the working class who are ‘nativist’.
> 
> I don’t actually give a toss what the LP does but let’s at least recognise the debate now opening up in their ranks.


I think Clive L will stand for leader next time, and might even win. I think he's trying to position himself, not totally cynically, but with an eye on the top job. He's been outspoken several times since Starmer took over.
No idea what deeper positions he holds though

ETA: just looked on oddschecker and he's not even on the very very long list, could easily get 500/1 on him as next PM which is a worth it bet IMO, BJ beats Starmer for term two, Lewis wins leadership and next election -long shot but worth 500+/1


----------



## Sprocket. (Feb 3, 2021)

ska invita said:


> ETA: just looked on oddschecker and he's not even on the very very long list, could easily get 500/1 on him as next PM which is a worth it bet IMO, BJ beats Starmer for term two, Lewis wins leadership and next election -long shot but worth 500+/1


Can I just say that with all that 2020/21 has/is chucking in our forlorn and demoralised faces, it has made my day to see such optimism.


----------



## teqniq (Feb 3, 2021)

The mere fact that the people in charge saw fit to hire an advertising agengy to give them good optics with the people that they thought they ought to win over rather than getting out there and actually connecting with people in and of itself speaks volumes.

Meanwhile....

Exclusive: Labour Reinstates Ex-Officials Suspended Over 'Leaks' Dossier

You know, the people who 'joked' about setting fire to someone.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Feb 3, 2021)

teqniq said:


> The mere fact that the people in charge saw fit to hire an advertising agengy to give them good optics with the people that they thought they ought to win over rather than actually getting out there and actually connecting with people in and of itself speaks volumes.


Innit. As AOC said, "the difference between an organiser and a strategist".

"Should we talk to the people to find out how they feel? No, let's talk to a consultancy company"


----------



## ska invita (Feb 3, 2021)

Sprocket. said:


> Can I just say that with all that 2020/21 has/is chucking in our forlorn and demoralised faces, it has made my day to see such optimism.


500-1 isnt that optimistic tbh!
Its a little early to talk about who takes over from Starmer but its not exactly a strong field. Clive L has a good chance I think

ETA: hes 33/1 - 40/1 for next labour leader , thats a good bet too


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Feb 3, 2021)

I think he'd be a plausible candidate when the next lot of focus groups says they need someone to engage with the young people and ethnic minorities who for some reason don't vote for them any more.


----------



## mojo pixy (Feb 3, 2021)




----------



## Sprocket. (Feb 3, 2021)

ska invita said:


> 500-1 isnt that optimistic tbh!
> Its a little early to talk about who takes over from Starmer but its not exactly a strong field. Clive L has a good chance I think
> 
> ETA: hes 33/1 - 40/1 for next labour leader , thats a good bet too


I had an email from Lisa Nandy last week saying how fantastic everything in the world is going to be now Joe Biden is in the White House. Join the Labour Party now, good times ahead!


----------



## JTG (Feb 3, 2021)

ska invita said:


> This might just be the defining moment in Labour politics of my lifetime:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Incidentally, I thought the fact that Thornberry - with politics indistinguishable from Starmer's, more experience in the party and in Parliament, in a neighbouring constituency and arguably more popular with _some_ people - failed to even get on the ballot for a contest Starmer strolled home in tells you a lot about certain aspects of the 'modern' Labour Party


----------



## JTG (Feb 3, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Well, I for one am glad to see the party returning to the proven formula for electoral success that worked so well for Miliband.


I've just had a flashback to "speedy boarding for veterans" and am more certain than I was five minutes ago that this is precisely where we are headed


----------



## JTG (Feb 3, 2021)

ska invita said:


> 500-1 isnt that optimistic tbh!
> Its a little early to talk about who takes over from Starmer but its not exactly a strong field. Clive L has a good chance I think
> 
> ETA: hes 33/1 - 40/1 for next labour leader , thats a good bet too


I mean, it all depends on who's still in Parliament by the time Starmer has cleansed the party of the wrong type of MP/member/voter. They could end up with the same level of purity as the Lib Dems


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 3, 2021)

TopCat said:


> If the LP wants to win it will have to reorient itself to the working class not the middle classes. We can have that lot as allies (never trust them though) but not directing the political direction.



 Labour have been 10 points adrift from the Tories nationally amongst w/class voters  and 10 points up in the middle class for months


----------



## JTG (Feb 3, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Labour have been 10 points adrift from the Tories nationally amongst w/class voters  and 10 points up in the middle class for months


Actual working class voters? Because the NRS socio-economic grades are bollocks and have been for a long while


----------



## ska invita (Feb 3, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Labour have been 10 points adrift from the Tories nationally amongst w/class voters  and 10 points up in the middle class for months


id like to see that demographic polling please if you can point to it


----------



## JTG (Feb 3, 2021)

ska invita said:


> id like to see that demographic polling please if you can point to it


Pensioners are ranked E. Skilled manual C2.

Meanwhile get a job in a call centre and you're a C1 and middle class baby


----------



## brogdale (Feb 3, 2021)

Flag; check.
Veteran; check.
Smartly dressed; check.

The ideal new model party Starmtrooper...


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 3, 2021)

ska invita said:


> id like to see that demographic polling please if you can point to it


YouGov


----------



## JTG (Feb 3, 2021)

JTG said:


> Pensioners are ranked E. Skilled manual C2.
> 
> Meanwhile get a job in a call centre and you're a C1 and middle class baby


My last job was ambulance dispatch so "supervisory or clerical" I guess. C1, middle class, 21k a year

Meanwhile a plumber or sparks on multiple times that is C2, skilled manual, salt of the earth w/c.

It's rubbish


----------



## killer b (Feb 3, 2021)

JTG said:


> Pensioners are ranked E. Skilled manual C2.


I thought this wasn't true and they're actually ranked whatever their last job was?


----------



## JTG (Feb 3, 2021)

killer b said:


> I thought this wasn't true and they're actually ranked whatever their last job was?


Possibly, but the rest is def still nonsense

And even if they're ranked as their last job, see other categories for why this is completely misleading in terms of economic clout


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 3, 2021)

JTG said:


> Actual working class voters? Because the NRS socio-economic grades are bollocks and have been for a long while


I agree they're not the best however do you think an alternative categorisation would show something substantially different ?


----------



## killer b (Feb 3, 2021)

JTG said:


> Possibly, but the rest is def still nonsense


Its a fairly significant thing to get wrong though.

I do agree there's some big issues with how the working class is defined: on that thread about why middle class people pretend to be working class the starting premise was that the working class now make up only 30% of the population, and toilet level clerical jobs were somewhere handwavy off to one side.


----------



## JTG (Feb 3, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> I agree they're not the best however do you think an alternative categorisation would show something substantially different ?


I do because (see killer b's post below)

I'm always seeing chat about how m/c the young urban graduate supporters of Corbyn are/were and tbh, I'm seeing a bunch of heavily indebted people in nonsense clerical jobs after being herded through university, handing vast portions of their income to landlords to live in shitty houseshares.

Or me, other side of 40, earning a shade over 20k in a city where that gets me nowhere to do a job that makes me middle class apparently.

The categorisations are so out of whack they're just not useful any more, sorry


----------



## JTG (Feb 3, 2021)

killer b said:


> Its a fairly significant thing to get wrong though.


See edit. Not as wrong as all that given that this would mean doing a well paid skilled job, retiring as a home owning pensioner on a good income and being forever working class. Just not useful imo


----------



## killer b (Feb 3, 2021)

JTG said:


> See edit. Not as wrong as all that given that this would mean doing a well paid skilled job, retiring as a home owning pensioner on a good income and being forever working class. Just not useful imo


It was wrong, and I find it hard to believe you didn't  know it was wrong when you said it, as its been debunked countless times here and elsewhere whenever people try to push it.


----------



## hitmouse (Feb 3, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> YouGov


It's a bit old (2019, so it's possible things may have changed somewhat since then), but this is interesting - breaks down the vote by both NRS categories and class self-identification: How well do ABC1 and C2DE correspond with our own class identity? | YouGov Showed Labour losing among all categories, but weakest among C2DE-middle-class, strongest among C2DE-working-class.


----------



## belboid (Feb 3, 2021)

Funnily enough, voting is tied to class _consciousness _as opposed to an academics notion of what class you belong  to.

"Digging deeper still reveals that in terms of the left-wing vote, Britons have much more similar voting behaviour to those in a different NRS grade but who share the same class identity as they do than with those in the same NRS grade but have a different class identity.

For instance, among ABC1s who describe themselves as middle class people, 25% intend to vote Labour and 23% Lib Dem. This is much more similar to how C2DE middle class people intend to vote (21% Labour, 20% Lib Dem) than it is to how ABC1 working class people intend to vote (31% Labour, 10% Lib Dem).

Digging deeper still reveals that in terms of the left-wing vote, Britons have much more similar voting behaviour to those in a different NRS grade but who share the same class identity as they do than with those in the same NRS grade but have a different class identity.

For instance, among ABC1s who describe themselves as middle class people, 25% intend to vote Labour and 23% Lib Dem. This is much more similar to how C2DE middle class people intend to vote (21% Labour, 20% Lib Dem) than it is to how ABC1 working class people intend to vote (31% Labour, 10% Lib Dem)."

They also addressed the pensioner question - on which both the above comments are not quite right.

"In fact, retired people are only classified as E if they subsist only on the state pension – if they have any other form of pension they are graded based on their previous occupation.

As such, retired people are present in all NRS grades. Although they are most likely to be found in grade E, at 35% this means that fully two thirds of retired people occupy different NRS grades."

So that's about double the number of the working members of grade E. (edit: probably even higher as DE only make up 20% of the population in total)









						How well do ABC1 and C2DE correspond with our own class identity? | YouGov
					

People could be misinterpreting how Britain’s social classes intend to vote if they use the two classifications interchangeably




					yougov.co.uk


----------



## JTG (Feb 3, 2021)

killer b said:


> It was wrong, and I find it hard to believe you didn't  know it was wrong when you said it, as its been debunked countless times here and elsewhere whenever people try to push it.


Jesus Christ you don't get any more fun as time goes by. Just try and be nice, you genuinely make this place hard work to be on


----------



## JTG (Feb 3, 2021)

belboid said:


> Funnily enough, voting is tied to class _consciousness _as opposed to an academics notion of what class you belong  to.
> 
> "Digging deeper still reveals that in terms of the left-wing vote, Britons have much more similar voting behaviour to those in a different NRS grade but who share the same class identity as they do than with those in the same NRS grade but have a different class identity.
> 
> ...


Thanks for that, genuinely interesting and worth taking the trouble to post. Helpful


----------



## brogdale (Feb 3, 2021)

How's that "radical rebranding to help it win back the trust of disillusioned voters" going, then?


----------



## killer b (Feb 3, 2021)

How many people from middle and upper class jobs since retirement subsist only on the state pension though? I think it's probably reasonable to assume close to 100% of pensioners on state-only pension were working class in their working life.


----------



## killer b (Feb 3, 2021)

JTG said:


> Jesus Christ you don't get any more fun as time goes by. Just try and be nice, you genuinely make this place hard work to be on


come on. post bollocks, get called on it. you know this.


----------



## tony.c (Feb 3, 2021)

Sprocket. said:


> I had an email from Lisa Nandy last week saying how fantastic everything in the world is going to be now Joe Biden is in the White House. Join the Labour Party now, good times ahead!


I haven't heard anything from them since I ceased membership - I did tick the box saying I did not want to receive emails.


----------



## belboid (Feb 3, 2021)

killer b said:


> How many people from middle and upper class jobs since retirement subsist only on the state pension though? I think it's probably reasonable to assume close to 100% of pensioners on state-only pension were working class in their working life.


depends what you mean by middle and upper-class jobs, though, doesnt it? As we are discussing, many people place themselves in a class that is different from their grade. And many of these 'middle-class' jobs _wont _have much of a pension, especially true for those who were self-employed. 

And, more centrally, just about everyone agrees that age is also an important factor in voting, which skewed overwhelmingly Labour when younger and Tory when older. So an 'excess' of elderly people in a social grade are going to bias that whole social grade inevitably and not just by taking people from the next band up.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Feb 3, 2021)

JTG said:


> Actual working class voters? Because the NRS socio-economic grades are bollocks and have been for a long while



This is always the line when someone points out that Labour is losing support among the working class. Given that the NRS definitions are contested two thoughts occur: 1. Is anyone suggesting that Labour is still popular among working class voters? If so on what evidence and 2. What evidence is there that Labour’s support isn’t diminished among working class voters?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Feb 3, 2021)

Sprocket. said:


> I had an email from Lisa Nandy last week saying how fantastic everything in the world is going to be now Joe Biden is in the White House. Join the Labour Party now, good times ahead!



A world led by Joe Biden and Lisa Nandy. Well it’s certainly won me over. How do I join up?


----------



## belboid (Feb 3, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> This is always the line when someone points out that Labour is losing support among the working class. Given that the NRS definitions are contested two thoughts occur: 1. Is anyone suggesting that Labour is still popular among working class voters? If so on what evidence and 2. What evidence is there that Labour’s support isn’t diminished among working class voters?


the evidence posted above


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Feb 3, 2021)

belboid said:


> the evidence posted above



How does the evidence posted above show that  Labour is popular among self identified working class voters? Or that Labour’s support isn’t diminished among working class voters?

The evidence (if this is what you are referring to) indicates that even where self identification of class is factored in that Labour is relatively unpopular among working class voters regardless of NRS classification).


----------



## mojo pixy (Feb 3, 2021)

^ aren't C2 and D Working Class by the NRS categtories? Maybe the ''working class'' line there means ''self-identifying working class'' or sth.


----------



## belboid (Feb 3, 2021)

It shows that people who identify as w-c are more likely to vote Labour than those in the supposedly appropriate categories.

Given that the poll was taken in late 2019 when Labour were tanking at the polls it is hardly surprising that Labour are behind in all categories - tho notably less so amongst those who consider themselves working-class.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Feb 3, 2021)

belboid said:


> It shows that people who identify as w-c are more likely to vote Labour than those in the supposedly appropriate categories.



it shows that ABC1’s who identity as WC are more likely to vote Labour than the rest of the ABC category. But it doesn’t answer the question I asked


----------



## belboid (Feb 3, 2021)

Well, it does, maybe not the way you'd like, but hey ho. 


Labour is not popular amongst older people.


----------



## Sprocket. (Feb 3, 2021)

tony.c said:


> I haven't heard anything from them since I ceased membership - I did tick the box saying I did not want to receive emails.


It’s obviously something I omitted to do since I was in touch with my MP over a campaign I was supporting through Unite. I also get similar ones from the Cooperative Party. Still it’s nice to know what they are up to.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Feb 3, 2021)

belboid said:


> Well, it does, maybe not the way you'd like, but hey ho.



I’ve pasted the evidence up. Everyone can see what it says. Which is the opposite of what you say it does


----------



## platinumsage (Feb 3, 2021)

Fisticuffs after PMQs!


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 3, 2021)

Don't post the s*n


----------



## platinumsage (Feb 3, 2021)

butchersapron said:


> Don't post the s*n



I didn't see any Guardian lobby hacks tweeting about it unfortunately.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 3, 2021)

So what? Don't post the s*n.


----------



## Sprocket. (Feb 3, 2021)

I imagine Keith on the phone to Arlene Foster by now. Can I be friends with you now.


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## belboid (Feb 3, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I’ve pasted the evidence up. Everyone can see what it says. Which is the opposite of what you say it does


I'll add 'meaning of the word 'popular'' to my long list of things you dont get


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 3, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> How does the evidence posted above show that  Labour is popular among self identified working class voters? Or that Labour’s support isn’t diminished among working class voters?
> 
> The evidence (if this is what you are referring to) indicates that even where self identification of class is factored in that Labour is relatively unpopular among working class voters regardless of NRS classification).


do you have anything from after the last general election?


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## Smokeandsteam (Feb 3, 2021)

belboid said:


> I'll add 'meaning of the word 'popular'' to my long list of things you dont get



You’ll have to as I never realised 33% support indicated popularity.


----------



## lazythursday (Feb 3, 2021)

Struggling to lay my hands on the data right now, but I'm sure I've seen analysis that makes it clear that even if you accept the flawed NRS methodology, working class people are still much more likely to vote / support Labour if you exclude pensioners. It's age that is the crucial factor right now. Is it more important for Labour to reconnect with NRS-defined working class pensioners than grow its appeal elsewhere on the age spectrum? I guess if you are looking at this purely in electoral terms it depends on the demographics of the key marginal seats. That isn't just the 'red wall', but I haven't read a lot of analysis of what seats Labour needs to win.


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## Chilli.s (Feb 3, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Clive Lewis


Never heard of 'im. But a quick google suggests he's a whole lot more suitable for the job.


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## JTG (Feb 3, 2021)

lazythursday said:


> Struggling to lay my hands on the data right now, but I'm sure I've seen analysis that makes it clear that even if you accept the flawed NRS methodology, working class people are still much more likely to vote / support Labour if you exclude pensioners. It's age that is the crucial factor right now. Is it more important for Labour to reconnect with NRS-defined working class pensioners than grow its appeal elsewhere on the age spectrum? I guess if you are looking at this purely in electoral terms it depends on the demographics of the key marginal seats. That isn't just the 'red wall', but I haven't read a lot of analysis of what seats Labour needs to win.


I think Labour are particularly snookered because of demographic issues in that young people are over represented in the cities, which they are already winning handily, leaving behind their small town homes in, I dunno, County Durham or wherever, which then become ever more Tory friendly. There are more rural/semi-rural etc seats than there are urban/suburban ones and the upshot is that Labour need to win 2/3% more of the vote just to get parity in seats.

I'm pulling stuff out of my arse here so some bits of the above are up for debate but you get the picture.

There's loads more older people than there are younger ones as well. The people who are just about to retire are the ones who voted for Thatcher in their millions in 79/83 and have been doing so ever since. If you want to discuss w/c Tory pensioners then that's where you start and you're just not going to get them now.

There are signs that Labour may find it easier to take some of the indomitable blue suburbs around London before too long - they've got ever closer in places like Chingford, Uxbridge, High Wycombe etc in recent elections. People are moving out of London and bringing their politics with them - the politics of wanting to start a family but not being able to afford a house etc. But generally, things are pretty shit for Labour without some other change elsewhere, perhaps some revival of the Lib Dems that could take votes from the Tories


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## Pickman's model (Feb 3, 2021)

JTG said:


> I think Labour are particularly snookered because of demographic issues in that young people are over represented in the cities, which they are already winning handily, leaving behind their small town homes in, I dunno, County Durham or wherever, which then become ever more Tory friendly. There are more rural/semi-rural etc seats than there are urban/suburban ones and the upshot is that Labour need to win 2/3% more of the vote just to get parity in seats.
> 
> I'm pulling stuff out of my arse here so some bits of the above are up for debate but you get the picture.
> 
> ...


of course it might be that everyone knows what the tories stand for and no one knows what the labour party stand for now. there has probably never been a more loyal opposition in parliament. keir starmer's usp seems to be simply wanting johnson to be better at the job, not opposing him on grounds of principle.


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## hitmouse (Feb 3, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> You’ll have to as I never realised 33% support indicated popularity.


I mean, it's all relative, innit? If there was a poll showing 33% support for the Lib Dems/Greens/Brexit Party/UKIP/BNP/TUSC or someone, we'd be going "wow, that's a really impressive level of popularity."
In this case, it does show that Labour are/were _more_ popular among C2DEs who identify as working class than among anyone else:




Obviously that doesn't say much about how it compares to Labour's support in the past, and there's no guarantee that people will feel the same about Starmer's Labour than they did about Corbyn's. But going back a bit:


The39thStep said:


> Labour have been 10 points adrift from the Tories nationally amongst w/class voters  and 10 points up in the middle class for months


If this is accurate then it's a big change from the 2019 polling. Although tbf that polling did show Labour just trailing by at least 10 points among everyone.


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## killer b (Feb 3, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> If this is accurate then it's a big change from the 2019 polling. Although tbf that polling did show Labour just trailing by at least 10 points among everyone.


this is from the most recent Yougov I could find:


----------



## JTG (Feb 3, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> of course it might be that everyone knows what the tories stand for and no one knows what the labour party stand for now. there has probably never been a more loyal opposition in parliament. keir starmer's usp seems to be simply wanting johnson to be better at the job, not opposing him on grounds of principle.


Well there's that as well, I'm just trying to talk through the electoral map and numbers rather than the actual politics


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 3, 2021)

JTG said:


> Well there's that as well, I'm just trying to talk through the electoral map and numbers rather than the actual politics


the problem is that they can attract more votes than they did in 2005, when they won, and still end in opposition. in 2019 they got more votes than at any time this century since 2001, yet we're told it's all up for labour. the real reason it's all up for labour is they will never get over the next hurdle unless either the tories fuck it up so badly _they_ are unelectable or (and suspend your disbelief) the labour party actual gives people an actual reason to vote _for_ them.


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## JTG (Feb 3, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> the problem is that they can attract more votes than they did in 2005, when they won, and still end in opposition. in 2019 they got more votes than at any time this century since 2001, yet we're told it's all up for labour. the real reason it's all up for labour is they will never get over the next hurdle unless either the tories fuck it up so badly _they_ are unelectable or (and suspend your disbelief) the labour party actual gives people an actual reason to vote _for_ them.


Yeah I mean one very big difference between now and 97-05 is the relative strength of the Liberal Democrats in England at that time - who largely took advantage of a weakened Tory vote (and from 05 a subsiding Labour vote though not enough to stop them winning on, what 35% of the vote). The third party vote in England has been pathetic since 2015.
Then there's the SNP, who have made things even harder for Labour both by taking a large chunk of their vote and also making it more acceptable for unionists to vote Tory again in Scotland.
So the Tories fucked up so badly by the late 90s that they lost voters to Lab & LDs. Then Lab started fucking it up badly and losing voters to LDs and eventually the Tories again. After that the LDs fucked it up so badly their voters decided they may as well either vote for the actual Tories or someone else. And Lab fucked up Scotland so badly no fucker wants to vote for them any more.

Your last point is so beyond the realms of fantasy at this stage that I'm not sure it's worth discussing


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## Ax^ (Feb 3, 2021)

hmm so is their any truth in the idea Starmers latest plan is to turn labour in the party of Flag waving nationalists


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## JTG (Feb 3, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> hmm so is their any truth in the idea Starmers latest plan is to turn labour in the party of Flag waving nationalists


He hasn't the imagination or desire to do owt else


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## hitmouse (Feb 3, 2021)

killer b said:


> this is from the most recent Yougov I could find:


Cheers for that. So bearing in mind all the extensive discussion about the dangers of conflating different categories and not using one thing to stand in for another, we can at least say that the past year of rebranding as Sir Keith's Flag-Shagging Extravaganza has been much more attractive to ABC1s than anyone else.


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## brogdale (Feb 3, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> hmm so is their any truth in the idea Starmers latest plan is to turn labour in the party of Flag waving nationalists


Nah, the mad Marxist commie (who hates his own country) only has 1 flag...everyone knows you need at least 4 these days.


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## killer b (Feb 3, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Cheers for that. So bearing in mind all the extensive discussion about the dangers of conflating different categories and not using one thing to stand in for another, we can at least say that the past year of rebranding as Sir Keith's Flag-Shagging Extravaganza has been much more attractive to ABC1s than anyone else.


The flag shagging is a new pivot isn't it? They've scooped up all the lib-demish types and now need to pull in some of the thick proles...


----------



## lazythursday (Feb 3, 2021)

JTG said:


> I think Labour are particularly snookered because of demographic issues in that young people are over represented in the cities, which they are already winning handily, leaving behind their small town homes in, I dunno, County Durham or wherever, which then become ever more Tory friendly. There are more rural/semi-rural etc seats than there are urban/suburban ones and the upshot is that Labour need to win 2/3% more of the vote just to get parity in seats.
> 
> I'm pulling stuff out of my arse here so some bits of the above are up for debate but you get the picture.
> 
> ...


And this is where


killer b said:


> this is from the most recent Yougov I could find:
> 
> View attachment 252619


Notable from that chart is the fact that despite all the discourse that Labour is now the party of London and has lost the north, actually the north remains the strongest region for Labour.


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## hitmouse (Feb 3, 2021)

killer b said:


> The flag shagging is a new pivot isn't it? They've scooped up all the lib-demish types and now need to pull in some of the thick proles...


I mean, to some extent, but it's also consistent with some of his past actions - the whole "it's impossible to say whether doing war crimes is good or bad" line, the shift from being The Great Remain Hope to backing Johnson's deal and so on.


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## JTG (Feb 3, 2021)

lazythursday said:


> And this is where
> 
> Notable from that chart is the fact that despite all the discourse that Labour is now the party of London and has lost the north, actually the north remains the strongest region for Labour.


Yeah I mean Labour remain strong in the north of England (lots of metropolitan areas) and metropolitan areas everywhere else as well. They're losing in small and medium sized towns and short of a reason for young people to stay in those places (maybe some kind of Green Industrial Revolution, who can say) I can't see that changing really

ETA: and wrt the smaller northern towns and semi rural seats that they lost last time around, they didn't lose loads of them by THAT much. Bishop Auckland looks a challenge now but places like Blyth Valley or NW Durham are a hair's breadth away from flipping back again. As you say, narratives have the north surfing a tidal wave of blue when most of the urban areas are deep red and the new swing seats are marginal to say the least


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## FridgeMagnet (Feb 3, 2021)

tweet


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## Raheem (Feb 3, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Nah, the mad Marxist commie (who hates his own country) only has 1 flag...everyone knows you need at least 4 these days.
> 
> View attachment 252622


Someone's nicked his bowl of soup as well.


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 3, 2021)




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## Wilf (Feb 4, 2021)

killer b said:


> The flag shagging is a new pivot isn't it? They've scooped up all the lib-demish types and now need to pull in some of the thick proles...


If they wave the flag too much, they'll get Jacob Rees Mogg in.


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## Raheem (Feb 4, 2021)

Wilf said:


> If they wave the flag too much, they'll get Jacob Rees Mogg in.


Easier just to say his name into a mirror 13 times.


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## SpookyFrank (Feb 4, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> hmm so is their any truth in the idea Starmers latest plan is to turn labour in the party of Flag waving nationalists



His party is and will remain nothing. This is all just about what colour they paint that nothing.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 4, 2021)

JTG said:


> I think Labour are particularly snookered because of demographic issues in that young people are over represented in the cities, which they are already winning handily, leaving behind their small town homes in, I dunno, County Durham or wherever, which then become ever more Tory friendly. There are more rural/semi-rural etc seats than there are urban/suburban ones and the upshot is that Labour need to win 2/3% more of the vote just to get parity in seats.
> 
> I'm pulling stuff out of my arse here so some bits of the above are up for debate but you get the picture.
> 
> ...


One of the things that led to the Labour Party success in 1996, was the huge number of house repossessions carried out across the country stop. Croydon for instance had over 2000 properties repossessed within a short period of time. This completely changed the attitude towards the Conservative party with regard to Financial husbandry.


We are about to have a huge increase in unemployment at a time when household debt is higher thanit’s ever been. The number of repossessions for instance in the next year is going to be huge.

People say that governments lose elections rather than the opposition winning them. I’m  not sure about this. But the financial storm that is coming it’s gonna be very very difficult for the Conservative party to endure. 

Problem is is the Labour Party ship with no strategy or plan.


----------



## Rimbaud (Feb 4, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> How does the evidence posted above show that  Labour is popular among self identified working class voters? Or that Labour’s support isn’t diminished among working class voters?
> 
> The evidence (if this is what you are referring to) indicates that even where self identification of class is factored in that Labour is relatively unpopular among working class voters regardless of NRS classification).



Call centre workers and dead end clerical jobs are C1 so that is misleading. The categories are outdated and biased towards "manual labour" as the defining features of being working class, but that hasn't been accurate for decades.

Is there any breakdown on how gig economy workers, minimum wage workers, and tenants vote? That would be more useful to gauge class in the 21st Century.


----------



## Rimbaud (Feb 4, 2021)

lazythursday said:


> And this is where
> 
> Notable from that chart is the fact that despite all the discourse that Labour is now the party of London and has lost the north, actually the north remains the strongest region for Labour.



Really hoping that the result of Starmer's flag waving is that the Northern Independence Party eats into their votes. 

Edit: Actually I do think that could happen. Starmer is oblivious to the strength of regional identities. In the North East, "defending the region from Westminister/standing up for the region" is a vote winner and a common approach to campaigning, also loads of Geordies were cheering on Scottish independence. Not sure if Labour associating itself so strongly with Westminster is a smart move. I don't think the large population of people descended from Irish Catholics really give two shits about the Union Jack either.

Even among the far right it is usually the England flag which appeals, not the Union flag.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 4, 2021)

JTG said:


> Yeah I mean Labour remain strong in the north of England (lots of metropolitan areas) and metropolitan areas everywhere else as well. They're losing in small and medium sized towns and short of a reason for young people to stay in those places (maybe some kind of Green Industrial Revolution, who can say) I can't see that changing really
> 
> ETA: and wrt the smaller northern towns and semi rural seats that they lost last time around, they didn't lose loads of them by THAT much. Bishop Auckland looks a challenge now but places like Blyth Valley or NW Durham are a hair's breadth away from flipping back again. As you say, narratives have the north surfing a tidal wave of blue when most of the urban areas are deep red and the new swing seats are marginal to say the least




I think we've had on these boards discussions about the Red Wall seats with some posters painting them as areas where young people are leaving in droves leaving an increasingly older population whose property when they die is snapped up by affluent Tories who want to live in the country. Thus hollowing out t what was once proud labour areas into Conservative ones and therefore there is very little Labour can do about it as it is fighting demographics.

Its true that cities tend to be younger however cities are aslo characterised by younger people coming into cities for work however as they themselves get older many leave the cities to start families and go else where. However the development of a lot of these convenient stereo types in trying to explain the decline of Labours vote in areas like the Red Wall have serious flaws and are contradicted by the Resolution Foundation report. 
This study found that net emigration from and immigration to those areas was in fact very low. They also state that compared to the national average the average age compared to the UK average age is virtually the same ie middle aged not old, and that home ownership is actually broadly share d but has relatively low value.
The Red Wall is characterised by 68% of the population living in large towns and small cities  which requires an economic strategy ( maybe a Green industrial Revolution,) that goes beyond simply improving connectivity between them or into medium and big cities. There is a lower skill base, a lack of growth, a lack of investment in new industries and a lower ratio of high value industry than city areas. 
If Labour want to be patriotic  in any sense then they should be patriotic to the North, Midlands and areas like the Red Wall.


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## Smokeandsteam (Feb 4, 2021)

Rimbaud said:


> also loads of Geordies were cheering on Scottish independence.



Where is the evidence that loads of Geordies were cheering on Scottish Independence coming from? According to this they’d be more upset about it than us in the Midlands and Wales:



			https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/d30xfonwnh/YouGov%20-%20UK%20break%20up%20attitudes%20(Britain%20England).pdf


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Feb 4, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> I think we've had on these boards discussions about the Red Wall seats with some posters painting them as areas where young people are leaving in droves leaving an increasingly older population whose property when they die is snapped up by affluent Tories who want to live in the country. Thus hollowing out t what was once proud labour areas into Conservative ones and therefore there is very little Labour can do about it as it is fighting demographics.



Yes, there has been a significant resurgence of late on here of the argument “it’s not us and our politics that’s the problem, it’s the _wrong type of people _who live in these areas who are to blame (that have voted Labour for the last 100 years)’.

I didn’t realise 68% of people could be characterised as typical ‘red wall’ types. Mind you, I only found our yesterday via Urban that 33% out of 100% meant something was popular. So you live and learn eh...


----------



## JTG (Feb 4, 2021)

TopCat said:


> One of the things that led to the Labour Party success in 1996, was the huge number of house repossessions carried out across the country stop. Croydon for instance had over 2000 properties repossessed within a short period of time. This completely changed the attitude towards the Conservative party with regard to Financial husbandry.
> 
> 
> We are about to have a huge increase in unemployment at a time when household debt is higher thanit’s ever been. The number of repossessions for instance in the next year is going to be huge.
> ...


Yeah I mean you touch there on the major difference as well. From Black Wednesday onwards Labour had a consistent lead (I don't believe they were behind in the polls at all for another 7/8 years or thereabouts) and Smith followed by Blair absolutely hammered the government on their economic failure, with the aid of a press who were quite happy to have a go as well. What have we now? A timid Labour Party and a pliant press. There's a tidal wave of shite on the way but absolutely no plan to alleviate it let alone take advantage, just the assumption that the tables will turn


----------



## JTG (Feb 4, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> I think we've had on these boards discussions about the Red Wall seats with some posters painting them as areas where young people are leaving in droves leaving an increasingly older population whose property when they die is snapped up by affluent Tories who want to live in the country. Thus hollowing out t what was once proud labour areas into Conservative ones and therefore there is very little Labour can do about it as it is fighting demographics.
> 
> Its true that cities tend to be younger however cities are aslo characterised by younger people coming into cities for work however as they themselves get older many leave the cities to start families and go else where. However the development of a lot of these convenient stereo types in trying to explain the decline of Labours vote in areas like the Red Wall have serious flaws and are contradicted by the Resolution Foundation report.
> This study found that net emigration from and immigration to those areas was in fact very low. They also state that compared to the national average the average age compared to the UK average age is virtually the same ie middle aged not old, and that home ownership is actually broadly share d but has relatively low value.
> ...


Fair dos.

Also has higher home ownership and closer to the national average income than other Labour strongholds. Stagnation rather than deprivation.


----------



## JTG (Feb 4, 2021)

Anyway, here comes Keirntelpro:









						Undercover policing inquiry: Keir Starmer urged to give evidence
					

Campaigners are asking whether Labour leader was involved in cover-up when he was in charge of the CPS




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## JTG (Feb 4, 2021)

Rimbaud said:


> Call centre workers and dead end clerical jobs are C1 so that is misleading. The categories are outdated and biased towards "manual labour" as the defining features of being working class, but that hasn't been accurate for decades.
> 
> Is there any breakdown on how gig economy workers, minimum wage workers, and tenants vote? That would be more useful to gauge class in the 21st Century.


Quite so. The workers you mention may not be categorised as w/c and may not be self identified as such but it's pretty hard to argue that they're not unless you're fixated on flat caps and empty mills


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## The39thStep (Feb 4, 2021)

JTG said:


> Fair dos.
> 
> Also has higher home ownership and closer to the national average income than other Labour strongholds. Stagnation rather than deprivation.


I wasn't having a go at you tbh as you did put a caveat on your remarks. I thought posting some research about the demographics would be  useful if you or anyone else was inclined to further down that route.


----------



## Rimbaud (Feb 4, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Where is the evidence that loads of Geordies were cheering on Scottish Independence coming from? According to this they’d be more upset about it than us in the Midlands and Wales:
> 
> 
> 
> https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/d30xfonwnh/YouGov%20-%20UK%20break%20up%20attitudes%20(Britain%20England).pdf



That says the North, doesn't say anything about the North East specifically. I'm mostly going by my own experience there, which is admittedly biased towards those of Irish Catholic heritage, but to me it is self evidently obvious that regional identity trumps national identity and that Geordies like and relate to Scots a hell of a lot more than Southern English. I don't think it is surprising that most of the people in the Northern Independence Party are from the North East, because its been frequent and increasingly serious pub chat about joining Scotland or something for years.

I found some polling to back that up:









						North East more pro-independence that the Scottish, online map shows
					

Poll by our sister website Us vs Th3m suggests folk living in the region are more keen on a yes vote than those north of the border




					www.chroniclelive.co.uk
				




It just goes to show how wrong headed the push for flag waving Britishness is to "win back" the North (the North which is, was, and remains Labour's stronghold and which had increased majorities for Corbyn all across Northern cities). The North isn't homogenous white EDL members as middle class bigots in the south seem determined to believe. It is actually racially diverse, especially in the North West, it is mostly very urban and the urban population is generally socially liberal. Even amongst the white population there is a significant Irish population, particularly in Liverpool and Newcastle, who just aren't drawn to the notion of Britishness being pushed by Starmer.


----------



## teqniq (Feb 4, 2021)

This is from yesterday, pretty bleak:



And there is an uncorroborated story on Twitter that they are advertising similar jobs with half the pay

and yet Keith does a vid supporting British Gas worker's strike:



There two things are completely at odds with each other imo.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Feb 4, 2021)

All of that talk from Labour supporters about community organising, the development and training of the thousands who flooded into the party and building a mass movement. Gone within a year of Starmer being elected. I can only assume that if anyone with any politics is left in Labour its because the unmissable penny landing actually fell on their head.....


----------



## two sheds (Feb 4, 2021)

Undercover policing inquiry: Keir Starmer urged to give evidence
					

Campaigners are asking whether Labour leader was involved in cover-up when he was in charge of the CPS




					www.theguardian.com
				




RESIGN


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 4, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> All of that talk from Labour supporters about community organising, the development and training of the thousands who flooded into the party and building a mass movement. Gone within a year of Starmer being elected. I can only assume that if anyone with any politics is left in Labour its because the unmissable penny landing actually fell on their head.....


Reasonable effort here from Dan Carden








						The Scouse Exception
					

As many of Labour's post-industrial heartlands drifted rightward, Liverpool remained solidly red. The reason is clear: working-class community organising.




					tribunemag.co.uk


----------



## JTG (Feb 4, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> I wasn't having a go at you tbh as you did put a caveat on your remarks. I thought posting some research about the demographics would be  useful if you or anyone else was inclined to further down that route.


Nah that's fine and always worth doing given that it's sometimes hard to separate assumptions from analysis from hard facts

I do think "Red Wall" in itself is a bit of an unhelpful grouping anyway given as it seems to have been invented 18 months ago for very specific reasons


----------



## JTG (Feb 4, 2021)

teqniq said:


> This is from yesterday, pretty bleak:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




COU stuff is entirely in line with the ongoing purge of anything remotely left or "Corbynite" within the party. It took ages to get off the ground due to internal opposition from the bureaucracy and had what seems to have been some success (Putney - specifically Roehampton I think - and some other places where the effect appears to have been to limit losses when compared to other similar areas). I mean, aside from the electoral effect, the ethos is that Labour should actually be doing stuff in w/c communities and the party right hate that.


----------



## a_chap (Feb 4, 2021)




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## Humberto (Feb 6, 2021)

If Starmer is supposed to be a realist then he needs to realise that insincere bullshit won't fly with potential Labour voters. I understand that the Labour Party is given a much shorter leash, and that they have to get over a solid wall of privilege and elitism, and I hear the 'they can't do any good if they're not in power' line. But aping the manipulation of the Tories e.g. nationalism (amongst other tools the ruling class use such as scapegoating) is not the way to go.

The 'right way' is to be real. If he can't be that then he isn't the right man. People talk about the electoral successes of New Labour where they were heavily reliant on focus-groups and publicity manipulation. The reality is that Blair and co. knew how to convince people that they were on 'their side' and could offer them a better deal. And they then convinced enough people that they could get it done.  

People are suffering. This isn't the time for a bland 'steady' appeal; it's time for argument. Blair and his operators knew their brief and could pull a few levers. They weren't always cautious and, lets be honest; shy. Above all he made his party electable. It's true he wasn't a leftist firebrand: he was Labour right-wing as far as I can tell.  And he had flaws that dragged us into wars and hurt so many others. But he wasn't shy of publicity and confrontation and he certainly wasn't  defeatist. 

Honestly though, Blair's opponents were relative boy scouts compared to the set of cut-throats and plunderers that Starmer's Labour are up against. They are merciless. Starmer should attack them and lead, or stand aside.


----------



## Knotted (Feb 6, 2021)

I really love this quote



> As one source put it: "The soft left are in the driving seat. They all get on quite well so they are not fighting over the party's future direction. It's more like they are still working out where to go."


Under the radar: Labour's search for direction - BBC News 

United in their lack of direction.


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## Smokeandsteam (Feb 6, 2021)

ska invita said:


> I think Clive L will stand for leader next time, and might even win. I think he's trying to position himself, not totally cynically, but with an eye on the top job. He's been outspoken several times since Starmer took over.
> No idea what deeper positions he holds though



I clocked your comment and thought about it while listening to Lewis being interviewed on Novara media last night (think the interview was earlier in the week).

He was abysmal. ‘A level’ cultural race theory combined with liberal popular frontism. His position is basically the same as Paul Masons (iirc Mason backed him for leader before swinging behind Starmer once CL couldn’t get the votes to go onto the ballot). Put simply: large sections of the working class - especially those not in cities, not young and not possessive of a postmodernist understanding of the world - are lost to ‘the left’. They are nativist/racist and beyond the pale.

Instead he proposes a liberal alliance of Labour, Liberal Democrat’s, Greens and Nats, the need for  PR and coalition. Oddly, the young thrusting dynamic radical viewers of Novara lapped it up.

So you might be right therefore, that if Labour loses in 2024, that the approach he represents might be where Labour ends up. It’d be the settlement Blair and Mandelson always wanted: albeit cloaked in identity language.


----------



## belboid (Feb 6, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Mind you, I only found our yesterday via Urban that 33% out of 100% meant something was popular. So you live and learn eh...


I dig that for stalinists like you anything less than 98% is a disaster but in the normal world 'popular' isnt an absolute.  Number two on the hit parade is still popular. Of course the point, which you missed by several miles, was boringly about the failure of social gradings to match the reality of who is working-class. You like to agree with this error because it helps you to claim your conservativism is the voice of the working class.  You sound like you're trying to convince yourself more than anyone else.


----------



## Knotted (Feb 6, 2021)

My sense is that the vapid blue Labour approach they are adopting is the common sense position of the bulk of the party. Clive Lewis isn't angling for leadership rather fighting a rear guard action.


----------



## belboid (Feb 6, 2021)

Knotted said:


> My sense is that the vapid blue Labour approach they are adopting is the common sense position of the bulk of the party. Clive Lewis isn't angling for leadership rather fighting a rear guard action.


I think its the position many believe voters in the 'red wall' seats adhere to, rather than the one they hold to themselves, iyswim.  Many _do _hold such a view but I dont think its the 'vast bulk'


----------



## a_chap (Feb 6, 2021)

belboid said:


> Number two on the hit parade is still popular



Number 2 might be popular but it's less-than-ideal in an election.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Feb 6, 2021)

belboid said:


> I dig that for stalinists like you anything less than 98% is a disaster but in the normal world 'popular' isnt an absolute.  Number two on the hit parade is still popular. Of course the point, which you missed by several miles, was boringly about the failure of social gradings to match the reality of who is working-class. You like to agree with this error because it helps you to claim your conservativism is the voice of the working class.  You sound like you're trying to convince yourself more than anyone else.



I suppose some won’t have read the previous pages of the thread Belboid. But most will have. The point wasn’t, as you now claim, about the failure of social grading classification. It was that, in the debate about that, you claimed that ‘the evidence’ showed the Labour Party was ‘popular’ once social grading _and self identification _was taken into account. The problem was that the evidence didn’t show that. Bar among ABC1 voters who claimed to be working class where it showed Labour was marginally less unpopular. Your spinning, twisting and piss poor labelling isn’t going to change the evidence.

The irony of someone marooned in the dregs of what passes for a ‘left’ in the Labour Party banging on about the malign influence of the Stalinists is hilarious mind.


----------



## ska invita (Feb 6, 2021)

Knotted said:


> I really love this quote
> 
> 
> Under the radar: Labour's search for direction - BBC News
> ...


Reminds me a bit of the classic Cameron quote: Why do you want to be prime minister?
I think id be rather good at it.

Absolute managerial response. Requires no direction.


----------



## belboid (Feb 6, 2021)

a_chap said:


> Number 2 might be popular but it's less-than-ideal in an election.


sure, but i'm just pointing out how s&s likes to shift goalposts


----------



## belboid (Feb 6, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> The irony of someone marooned in the dregs of what passes for a ‘left’ in the Labour Party banging on about the malign influence of the Stalinists is hilarious mind.


everyone should slate stalinists, and their influence.  Just cos hardly anyone waves the flag explicitly for uncle joe doesnt mean his social conservatism and nationalism aren't quite widely reflected within the 'left.'


----------



## ska invita (Feb 6, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I clocked your comment and thought about it while listening to Lewis being interviewed on Novara media last night (think the interview was earlier in the week).
> 
> He was abysmal. ‘A level’ cultural race theory combined with liberal popular frontism. His position is basically the same as Paul Masons (iirc Mason backed him for leader before swinging behind Starmer once CL couldn’t get the votes to go onto the ballot). Put simply: large sections of the working class - especially those not in cities, not young and not possessive of a postmodernist understanding of the world - are lost to ‘the left’. They are nativist/racist and beyond the pale.
> 
> ...


I don't particularly follow your assumptions but I get the gist . It sounds  chariceture to me, but I'm not going to argue it, I'm not invested.

My impression is Clive Lewis isn't much of a heavyweight thinker, he's quite a normal guy really. Ex army too. Maybe he can get tripped up on this or that but I think he is quite heartfelt... Not cut from cynical cloth.

I don't know his opinions on many topics, but he hasn't shied from being critical of Starmer, he was broadly supportive of Corbyn, and if his every man charm carries through he might rise to the top of a bland field. That's about the sum of my impression of him.


----------



## ska invita (Feb 6, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I suppose some won’t have read the previous pages of the thread Belboid. But most will have. The point wasn’t, as you now claim, about the failure of social grading classification. It was that, in the debate about that, you claimed that ‘the evidence’ showed the Labour Party was ‘popular’ once social grading _and self identification _was taken into account. The problem was that the evidence didn’t show that. Bar among ABC1 voters who claimed to be working class where it showed Labour was marginally less unpopular. Your spinning, twisting and piss poor labelling isn’t going to change the evidence.
> 
> The irony of someone marooned in the dregs of what passes for a ‘left’ in the Labour Party banging on about the malign influence of the Stalinists is hilarious mind.


Are you a Stalinist?


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 6, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I clocked your comment and thought about it while listening to Lewis being interviewed on Novara media last night (think the interview was earlier in the week).
> 
> He was abysmal. ‘A level’ cultural race theory combined with liberal popular frontism. His position is basically the same as Paul Masons (iirc Mason backed him for leader before swinging behind Starmer once CL couldn’t get the votes to go onto the ballot). Put simply: large sections of the working class - especially those not in cities, not young and not possessive of a postmodernist understanding of the world - are lost to ‘the left’. They are nativist/racist and beyond the pale.
> 
> ...


i can't help thinking that while you might be right about the paucity of lewis's thinking, you might phrase these sorts of thing rather better if you don't want to put off people who might see using a level as an insult as something of a dig at those whose highest qualification might be a levels or gcses and not have been to university. if you mean half-baked or facile or half-understood then perhaps better to say that. being as i suppose you'll be having conversations with people involved in the political education project and what generally goes down fine here might not go down so well with others.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 6, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Are you a Stalinist?


he's a trot, i think, although we all know trotskyism is stalinism out of power


----------



## ska invita (Feb 6, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> large sections of the working class - especially those not in cities, not young and not possessive of a postmodernist understanding of the world - are lost to ‘the left’. They are nativist/racist and beyond the pale.


i didnt get that from his article - what did you hear? i thought he was saying Lets be honest about british history and not airbrush it. if youre going to Do the flag, do it as part of an honest historic and positive future vision.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Feb 6, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Are you a Stalinist?



I’ve spent the last 20 years arguing _against_ party builders, ‘democratic centralists’ and Lennist/Stalinist micro-sects of all kinds and _for_ independent working class politics.


----------



## teqniq (Feb 7, 2021)

Oh dearie me:


----------



## belboid (Feb 7, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I’ve spent the last 20 years arguing _against_ party builders, ‘democratic centralists’ and Lennist/Stalinist micro-sects of all kinds and _for_ independent working class politics.


lol.  You’ve spent however long you’ve been on here repeating drivel from macho wannabes and stalinists morons, replete with the chauvinism of the worst trade union official.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Feb 7, 2021)

belboid said:


> lol.  You’ve spent however long you’ve been on here repeating drivel from macho wannabes and stalinists morons, replete with the chauvinism of the worst trade union official.



Hark at you bellend. So busy with the endless smears: macho, Stalinist, chauvinism. All with your dog eared Labour Party membership card tucked in your pocket. The cobweb middle class left personified.


----------



## belboid (Feb 7, 2021)

That doesn't even make sense. You have praised umpteen labour politicians, so that shouldn't be an issue. Throw in your support for nationalism and a crude as fuck class reductionism and it's the politics of someone stuck in the 1950's.  When Stalinism ruled.


----------



## ska invita (Feb 7, 2021)

one of the best things about urban is how we have different perspectives and generally rubalong despite it, without any factional position overly dominating


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Feb 7, 2021)

belboid said:


> That doesn't even make sense. You have praised umpteen labour politicians, so that shouldn't be an issue. Throw in your support for nationalism and a crude as fuck class reductionism and it's the politics of someone stuck in the 1950's.  When Stalinism ruled.



A classic Bellend post. Discussion about Labour = praise for Labour (and neatly sidesteps having to account for your own continued active support and membership of it). Pro working class politics = class reductionism. Arguments against the gormless, political dead end ‘no borders’ line you push = nationalism.

Then, having constructed your pile of steaming shit, you draw some vague ‘conclusions’ for the smear operation. For someone so opposed to Stalinism you are well versed in its methods.

Anyway, that’s enough of my day off wasted on you.


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 7, 2021)

Andy Burnham anyone?


----------



## JTG (Feb 7, 2021)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Andy Burnham anyone?


It's going to be a choice between Someone Who Isn't Rachel Reeves and, well...


----------



## ska invita (Feb 7, 2021)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Andy Burnham anyone?


que?


----------



## JTG (Feb 7, 2021)

ska invita said:


> que?


Took it to mean the replacement for old hamface when he's inevitably couped by the right


----------



## belboid (Feb 7, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> A classic Bellend post. Discussion about Labour = praise for Labour (and neatly sidesteps having to account for your own continued active support and membership of it). Pro working class politics = class reductionism. Arguments against the gormless, political dead end ‘no borders’ line you push = nationalism.
> 
> Then, having constructed your pile of steaming shit, you draw some vague ‘conclusions’ for the smear operation. For someone so opposed to Stalinism you are well versed in its methods.
> 
> Anyway, that’s enough of my day off wasted on you.


lol.  You really are a shambolic hypocrite. The posts where you praise particular labour politicians are all still here, tho you can pretend they dont exist if you like.   Your view of class is narrow as fuck, stuck in a bygone era, hence, next to useless. I haven't mentioned 'no borders', dunno why you have, tho you support nationalism there as well as in wider economic measures (as you have posted in this very thread). Its all classic 'socialism in one country' nonsense. Narrow and parochial at the best of times, but in a leading imperialist nation, simply reactionary.


----------



## Rimbaud (Feb 7, 2021)

belboid said:


> lol.  You really are a shambolic hypocrite. The posts where you praise particular labour politicians are all still here, tho you can pretend they dont exist if you like.   Your view of class is narrow as fuck, stuck in a bygone era, hence, next to useless. I haven't mentioned 'no borders', dunno why you have, tho you support nationalism there as well as in wider economic measures (as you have posted in this very thread). Its all classic 'socialism in one country' nonsense. Narrow and parochial at the best of times, but in a leading imperialist nation, simply reactionary.



I don't really agree with Smokeandsteam's perspective, but I think you've got him wrong here. 

My impression is that his politics are motivated by a fidelity to older traditions of trade unionism and a loyalty to those communities which were destroyed during the Thatcher era. And he is hostile to the kind of postmodern identity politics embraced by the middle class left which, as a part of New Labour, basically dismissed those communities which were the original strongholds of the labour movement, and sees the shift of those communities to the right (Brexit etc) as a symptom of this abandonment. His politics are an attempt to resolve that. 

I'm sure Smokeandsteam can speak for himself and I apologise if I got him wrong, but that's where I have always felt you were coming from. 

I think he gets some things wrong, but I respect his perspective and he certainly isn't a Stalinist or Trot or nationalist.


----------



## ska invita (Feb 8, 2021)

the starmer effect = greens +3


----------



## JTG (Feb 8, 2021)

ska invita said:


> the starmer effect = greens +3



Think there's some reversion to 2015 here, before a lot of the Green vote got folded into Labour when Corbyn took over. Labour still relatively high however because the Lib Dems are showing no signs of recovery at all

Certainly I wouldn't be at all surprised if there was a Green surge in some of the more central areas of Bristol in May, largely at Labour's expense, possibly even ending up with a majority of councillors in the Bristol West constituency

'Others' looks weird though, given that the SNP usually manage around 5% on their own these days


----------



## Raheem (Feb 8, 2021)

ska invita said:


> the starmer effect = greens +3


Come on. Be fair and give the flags a chance to do their thing.


----------



## emanymton (Feb 8, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Come on. Be fair and give the flags a chance to do their thing.


Greens +4?


----------



## JTG (Feb 8, 2021)

JTG said:


> Think there's some reversion to 2015 here, before a lot of the Green vote got folded into Labour when Corbyn took over. Labour still relatively high however because the Lib Dems are showing no signs of recovery at all
> 
> Certainly I wouldn't be at all surprised if there was a Green surge in some of the more central areas of Bristol in May, largely at Labour's expense, possibly even ending up with a majority of councillors in the Bristol West constituency
> 
> 'Others' looks weird though, given that the SNP usually manage around 5% on their own these days


Just to add to that local angle - I have heard that Bristol West Labour reckon they topped the poll in every single ward in GE19, in a constituency where the Greens are in second. The current councillor distribution in West is nine Labour, nine Green, two LD of which I reckon up to seven Labour and one LD are vulnerable to the Greens.

Nothing guaranteed and I'm prepared to be wrong but I reckon Labour could do REALLY badly here


----------



## ska invita (Feb 8, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Come on. Be fair and give the flags a chance to do their thing.


the silly thing about the leaked  flags strategy is that he's been sat behind some flag for ages now - it should be a surprise to no one - though to be fair we didn't know he plans to "use veterans" yet.


I wonder if the Greens have ever polled as the third party in the UK before?


----------



## DJWrongspeed (Feb 8, 2021)

There's certainly a vaccine lift for the Tories.
What's interesting then is that Cabinet minister's poor performance, Priti Patel /Kendrick/Williamson amongst others, Dominic Cummings fiasco and terrible covid deaths haven't lost the Tories much support.
That's not even considering Brexit, the effect of which has been masked by the pandemic. There's no business as usual in the situation so difficult predict anything.


----------



## ska invita (Feb 8, 2021)

*Demand For Special Labour Conference As Pressure Mounts On Starmer From Left*









						Exclusive: Demand For Special Labour Conference As Pressure Mounts On Starmer From Left
					

Unite, Socialist Campaign Group MPs and Momentum say there is "anger and disillusionment" among grassroots.




					www.huffingtonpost.co.uk
				




A coalition of left-wing MPs, unions and Labour members are calling on Keir Starmer to hold an emergency party conference, HuffPost UK has learned.

Claiming there is widespread “anger and disillusionment” and a “crisis” in the party under the new leader, the group want party chiefs to recall conference immediately.

The motion is backed by the Socialist Campaign Group of MPs, which includes John McDonnell and Richard Burgon among others, as well as the powerful trade union Unite, Momentum and the Bakers’ Union.
...

The motion says an emergency online conference could be organised to coincide with the party’s women’s conference in June, and calls on Labour’s ruling national executive committee to force one. 

It reads: “Discussion in local Labour Party meetings has been suppressed; motions banned; scores of activists suspended; and anger and disillusionment is exploding across our lay membership across the party.

“Members are leaving in droves and many more are expressing frustration and dissatisfaction at the attack on democracy and free speech. Many members are saying it doesn’t feel like the Labour Party anymore.” 


---
usual suspects? yeah but the BBC are reporting it prominently too.
i guess May elections are key now


----------



## teqniq (Feb 8, 2021)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Another human rights report published today, I suspect this one will be largely ignored though. From the Joint Parliamentary Committee on Human Rights on the Tory Regime's “Legislative Scrutiny: Overseas Operations Bill” (yes, remember one of the one's Starmer ordered Labour MPs to abstain on and threatened action against those who broke ranks):
> 
> 
> 
> ...


In relation to the above, read this today:









						Legalising Torture
					

The Overseas Operations Bill effectively decriminalises torture abroad. It's been labelled a political reaction to a series of legal claims - but its real motivation is thoroughly ideological.




					tribunemag.co.uk


----------



## toblerone3 (Feb 9, 2021)

"Keir Starmer's time is up" - wrong.   The clock has not even started. Give him a chance.


----------



## Knotted (Feb 9, 2021)

All we are saying is give Keith a chance.


----------



## JTG (Feb 9, 2021)

ska invita said:


> *Demand For Special Labour Conference As Pressure Mounts On Starmer From Left*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


General Secretary David Evans, who has been leading the charge to purge the left from the party, has yet to have his appointment approved by Conference as per party rules after the cancellation of last year's. Handy for him that he gets 18 months to wreak havoc before having to have his own job ratified


----------



## JTG (Feb 9, 2021)

toblerone3 said:


> "Keir Starmer's time is up" - wrong.   The clock has not even started. Give him a chance.


The clock's always ticking mate, not our fault he hasn't left the starting blocks yet


----------



## Steel Icarus (Feb 9, 2021)

In attempting to be all things to all people he's successfully become a nobody for everyone, blending into the background. A Starmer chameleon if you will.


----------



## JTG (Feb 9, 2021)

S☼I said:


> In attempting to be all things to all people he's successfully become a nobody for everyone, blending into the background. A Starmer chameleon if you will.


Happy to oblige


----------



## TopCat (Feb 9, 2021)

Knotted said:


> All we are saying is give Keith a chance.


Thanks for the fucking ear worm. It’s competing with tinnitus for my attention.


----------



## ska invita (Feb 9, 2021)

S☼I said:


> In attempting to be all things to all people he's successfully become a nobody for everyone, blending into the background. A Starmer chameleon if you will.


not to be pedantic but thats not it at all - he has made zero attempt to 'be somebody' to the left. all his actions have been to prove to be a tory clone to tory swing voters (eta: and to the establishment too of course)


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Feb 9, 2021)

ska invita said:


> not to be pedantic but thats not it at all - he has made zero attempt to 'be somebody' to the left. his sole actions have been to prove to be a tory clone to tory swing voters



First priority is pandering to the right wing press from what I can see. 

Appease the Daily Mail >>> ? >>> Profit!


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Feb 9, 2021)

toblerone3 said:


> "Keir Starmer's time is up" - wrong.   The clock has not even started. Give him a chance.



Righto. What is he about to do?


----------



## Knotted (Feb 9, 2021)

I think the idea behind the "give Keith a chance" sentiment is that the opposition couldn't have done much during the pandemic response. The absolute opposite is the case. 2020 should have been the most politically significant year since the second world war. The government has mishandled a crisis which is both wrecking the economy and killing people by the tens of thousands because of their political priorities and their ideology _as well as_ their general incompetence. The fact that Starmer hasn't made a splash is not just politically damning, it's criminal negligence. I don't mean that figuratively, the shadow cabinet should be facing trial along with the government. Issues like plastic patriotism and brexit are pissingly small fry.


----------



## hitmouse (Feb 9, 2021)

toblerone3 said:


> The cock has not even started. Give him a chance.


fixed your typo


----------



## hitmouse (Feb 9, 2021)

ska invita said:


> not to be pedantic but thats not it at all - he has made zero attempt to 'be somebody' to the left. all his actions have been to prove to be a tory clone to tory swing voters (eta: and to the establishment too of course)


I mean, he has made attempts at marketing himself that way, even if they're not particularly substantial:








						Keir Starmer: "I Still See Myself as a Socialist"
					

The frontrunner in Labour's leadership contest wants to reassure voters that he isn't a Blair in the making – and that he's more working class than you think.




					www.vice.com


----------



## ska invita (Feb 9, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> I mean, he has made attempts at marketing himself that way, even if they're not particularly substantial:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


telling use of the word "still"
and "see myself"

and "socialist"


----------



## JimW (Feb 9, 2021)

I still see myself as a handsome young lad about town but it's not got a great deal to do with the reality


----------



## JTG (Feb 9, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> I mean, he has made attempts at marketing himself that way, even if they're not particularly substantial:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That was just to hoodwink Labour members. No need for that any more


----------



## mojo pixy (Feb 9, 2021)

Keir Starmer's a socialist, Johnson's government are doing their best, the EU will save us anyway, Charlie Mullins is working class, Extinction Rebellion is dangerous extremism, Black Lives Matter is divisive, working class voters prefer union jacks over unions, and elitism is OK as long as it's diverse. In other news, freedom is slavery, ignorance is strength, war is peace.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Feb 9, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> Keir Starmer's a socialist, Johnson's government are doing their best, the EU will save us anyway, Charlie Mullins is working class, Extinction Rebellion is dangerous extremism, Black Lives Matter is divisive, working class voters prefer union jacks over unions, and elitism is OK as long as it's diverse. In other news, freedom is slavery, ignorance is strength, war is peace.


Ok, what's 2 + 2?


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 9, 2021)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> Ok, what's 2 + 2?


 variously
10
11
4


----------



## mojo pixy (Feb 9, 2021)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> Ok, what's 2 + 2?



these days it could be anywhere between _prawns _and _Uranus_.

_well I think that is a very good question, and we have been very clear from the start that two is the most important number to voters. We have already committed to add another two by the end of the year, and frankly, I think the electorate resent any implication that their two is less important than ours. Therefore I am pleased to announce that we aim to provide a two for every british family, free at the point of delivery. I think this shows our firm and ongoing commitment both to the people of the united kingdom, and to mental arithmetic._


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Feb 9, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> variously
> 10
> 11
> 4


As long as it's not five.


----------



## ska invita (Feb 9, 2021)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> Righto. What is he about to do?


the thing is lets say he runs in the next election on corbyns manifesto or near enough, and has a good go at selling it via the media, draped in flags or whatever
would that be enough to win labour activists back? only in a limited way i think

particularly the suspension of left activists + reinstatement and rewarding of the saboteurs is something i cant forgive
like most of us im not in a swing seat (so the meaning of our votes is just cryptic message sending) and i wont vote labour under starmer no matter what happens next. Short of some kind of deep justice post Forde Inquiry, what has happened so far is unforgivable to me.

im not a member nor an activist, but if i were i couldn't humiliate myself to work for these people, whatever the manifesto - and from what I can tell lots of members feel the same way.
they've chosen their approach: fuck the members, fuck party democracy, fuck even any pipedream to be a community party. well then i expect there'll be a long and stubborn fuck you right back.

its clear he's frightened of the wider public and distrustful of the membership so there is no way his attitude is going to change between here and the next election. maybe he might print up some more posters of himself.

so all that is to come is more of the same: triangulate or die! who doesnt dare wins! or not, as reality will most likely prove.


*that said i appreciate that people often have short memories, labour party is built on compromise on top of compromise, and 4 years is a long time in politics, so things may yet change in some unforseen way. i see no reason to feel positive though


----------



## Steel Icarus (Feb 9, 2021)

ska invita said:


> not to be pedantic but thats not it at all - he has made zero attempt to 'be somebody' to the left. all his actions have been to prove to be a tory clone to tory swing voters (eta: and to the establishment too of course)


You've answered almost as if my almost my entire post was the preamble to a poor pun that no doubt many others have made. Weird


----------



## editor (Feb 9, 2021)

toblerone3 said:


> "Keir Starmer's time is up" - wrong.   The clock has not even started. Give him a chance.


He's been gifted an open goal with the government's catastrophic handling of the Covid crisis and he's hoofed it into his own net. He's barely had an interesting thing to say about, well, anything. He's a total fucking disaster. Labour should be miles ahead in the polls and instead they're struggling to stay on a par with a spectacularly incompetent government who are - quite literally - responsible for the unnecessary deaths of thousands of people.


----------



## Flavour (Feb 9, 2021)

Over a hundred thousand people in less than a year.


----------



## ska invita (Feb 9, 2021)

S☼I said:


> You've answered almost as if my almost my entire post was the preamble to a poor pun that no doubt many others have made. Weird


well then the premise for your pun is wrong, he's an out-in-the open plain-to-see cunt!


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 9, 2021)

ska invita said:


> the thing is lets say he runs in the next election on corbyns manifesto or near enough, and has a good go at selling it via the media, draped in flags or whatever
> would that be enough to win labour activists back? only in a limited way i think
> 
> particularly the suspension of left activists + reinstatement and rewarding of the saboteurs is something i cant forgive
> ...


Do you think that the Labour Party are really going to fight the next election on Corbyns manifesto or near enough?


----------



## ska invita (Feb 9, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Do you think that the Labour Party are really going to fight the next election on Corbyns manifesto or near enough?


No 

It was a theoretical excercise based on "give him a chance"


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Feb 9, 2021)

editor said:


> He's been gifted an open goal with the government's catastrophic handling of the Covid crisis and he's hoofed it into his own net. He's barely had an interesting thing to say about, well, anything. He's a total fucking disaster. Labour should be miles ahead in the polls and instead they're struggling to stay on a par with a spectacularly incompetent government who are - quite literally - responsible for the unnecessary deaths of thousands of people.



'Should be miles ahead' sounds a bit familiar. 

I don't know it's that simple tbh. They're going to need a bit more than the appearance of competence.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 9, 2021)

ska invita said:


> No
> 
> It was a theoretical excercise based on "give him a chance"



Can see it being nearer Millibands tbh with a nod to Northern investment levelling up, if anything to keep Burnham out of the way and the new Liverpool mayor.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 9, 2021)

ska invita said:


> No
> 
> It was a theoretical excercise based on "give him a chance"


Surely the 'give him a chance' option on here - and to those people you mention -  would involve him _not _running on a corbynite manifesto. Precisely as he is doing and they aren't.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 9, 2021)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> 'Should be miles ahead' sounds a bit familiar.
> 
> I don't know it's that simple tbh. They're going to need a bit more than the appearance of competence.


The vaccine programme has undoubtedly helped Johnson in the polls.


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## ska invita (Feb 9, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Can see it being nearer Millibands tbh with a nod to Northern investment levelling up, if anything to keep Burnham out of the way and the new Liverpool mayor.


I can't remember who said it but I've heard from the nationalisation programme they might keep trains only


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## JTG (Feb 9, 2021)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> 'Should be miles ahead' sounds a bit familiar.
> 
> I don't know it's that simple tbh. They're going to need a bit more than the appearance of competence.


It's not that simple, no. Not with the culture wars in full flow and the Tories' 40% doing well enough that they're not going to shift any time soon.

Corbyn's vision of selling an alternative vision got some traction (and I understand not enough) for a period and honestly, given the above, I don't see how the approach of greater managerial competence being tried now is any more likely to succeed.


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## ska invita (Feb 9, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> The vaccine programme has undoubtedly helped Johnson in the polls.


About 1pc tbh. 2pc tops


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## teqniq (Feb 9, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> The vaccine programme has undoubtedly helped Johnson in the polls.


For which he deserves zero credit.


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## JTG (Feb 9, 2021)

ska invita said:


> I can't remember who said it but I've heard from the nationalisation programme they might keep trains only


They were on about "radical insourcing" the other day


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## JTG (Feb 9, 2021)

ska invita said:


> the thing is lets say he runs in the next election on corbyns manifesto or near enough, and has a good go at selling it via the media, draped in flags or whatever
> would that be enough to win labour activists back? only in a limited way i think
> 
> particularly the suspension of left activists + reinstatement and rewarding of the saboteurs is something i cant forgive
> ...


Yeah, it's been made perfectly plain to a great many members/ex-members that they're not welcome and nor are their politics. People who sucked it up to get the likes of Rosie Duffield elected aren't going out to do it again in a hurry. There may be targeted efforts to campaign for left candidates (can imagine Coventry South with a wafer thin majority would see plenty of willing workers for example) but they're going to pick and choose where they go. To an extent this was happening already - I met people campaigning in Filton & Bradley Stoke who refused point blank to campaign for their own MP Darren Jones in Bristol NW for example.


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## ska invita (Feb 9, 2021)

The Forde related thing is impossible to swallow - hes the Director of Prosecutions ffs, thats his whole shtick - serving justice. Even on his own preferred platform he is showing corruption and contempt. Its sickening


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## JTG (Feb 9, 2021)

ska invita said:


> The Forde related thing really stings hard - hes the Director of Prosecutions ffs, thats his whole shtick - serving justice. Even on his own preferred platform he is showing corruption and contempt. Its sickening


Well... you don't get to be DPP unless you're serving a certain _type_ of justice


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## The39thStep (Feb 9, 2021)

teqniq said:


> For which he deserves zero credit.


I suppose though its often a case about who takes the credit or who gives the credit rather than deserving it


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## ska invita (Feb 9, 2021)

JTG said:


> Well... you don't get to be DPP unless you're serving a certain _type_ of justice


Sure, i just don't understand the internal politics of this - surely you can throw some no marks like Emilie Oldknow in the bin and at least pretend to draw a line under it. Reinstating her before the Forde inquiry comes back is just sticking two fingers up at everyone watching on in disgust. Its not even Machiavellian savvy.

I just hope there's some headway to be made in all the internal legal battles launched over this


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## JTG (Feb 9, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Sure, i just don't understand the internal politics of this - surely you can throw some no marks like Emilie Oldknow in the bin and at least pretend to draw a line under it. Reinstating her before the Forde inquiry comes back is just sticking two fingers up at everyone watching on in disgust. Its not even Machiavellian savvy.
> 
> I just hope there's some headway to be made in all the internal legal battles launched over this


I do wonder how much he's in thrall to the extreme centre in all of this - willingly no doubt, but remember he's only been an MP for less than six years and I'm not sure how battle worn he is wrt to internal Labour politics given he was previously dedicating himself to his legal career.

We all make comparisons to Blair and he sidelined the left for sure but also didn't alienate them entirely. I'm minded of that speech he made when he referenced Dennis Skinner and the fact that "we don't agree on much but we both hate the Tories". This approach doesn't seem to even allow for that amount of concessionary ruffling of the hair of the party's left wing


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## Chz (Feb 9, 2021)

toblerone3 said:


> "Keir Starmer's time is up" - wrong.   The clock has not even started. Give him a chance.


You know, when he started that was my thought. 
But now? He's frankly done very little, and the little that he has done gives me cause for worry. Much as I thought Corbyn was utterly useless as a leader, at least his heart was in the right place (or even existed) and the policies were there. Kier's policy thus far seems to be "Tory Lite, perhaps with less cronyism". The one thing where he's continued Corbyn-era policy has been to be completely useless at actually being the Opposition. And I don't mean scoring useless brownie points in PMQs, but actually opposing what the government is bloody well doing! He's a huge disappointment thus far, and really quite worrying that Labour can't find anyone better.


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## ska invita (Feb 9, 2021)

Chz said:


> and really quite worrying that Labour can't find anyone better.


I wonder why that is exactly.
Possible reasons i can think of include:
Labour has for years been the epitomy of the Professional Middle Class party and has attracted and elevated those kinds of people
Deliberate attempt to choke off grassroots democracy
I forget the mechanics but Blair supposedly drew the drawbridge up around his sofa which further insulated the LP HQ from the real word
Boomerism / generational divide
?

Some commentators have been saying for a while there is a collapse in the quality of the professional political class - when you look at the current cabinet its hard to argue, though I don't now how true all that kind of thing is. Sounds like a lament that 'Oxbridge isn't what it used to be at turning out good solid chaps, even the pinkos' IYNWIM. In which case, good.

Notable how many old lags there were around Corbyn - a different generation


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## ska invita (Feb 9, 2021)

JTG said:


> I'm minded of that speech he made when he referenced Dennis Skinner and the fact that "we don't agree on much but we both hate the Tories".


Steady on, our focus group tells us that the Tories are quite well liked actually.


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## redsquirrel (Feb 9, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Do you think that the Labour Party are really going to fight the next election on Corbyns manifesto or near enough?


I don't and never did but some on here (eg fakeplasticgirl), and wider (Mason), argued for Starmer on the basis of a change in (a more electable) personality and that the policy would not shift significantly. How truly they held that belief only they can say.


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## The39thStep (Feb 9, 2021)

Masons take was the most bizarre thing I have seen since his  . 





> I'm voting Labour to stop Brexit and send MEPs to Brussels who will fight austerity.


.


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## redsquirrel (Feb 9, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Masons take was the most bizarre thing I have seen since his  . .


We just don't understand The39thStep !


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## The39thStep (Feb 9, 2021)

redsquirrel said:


> We just don't understand The39thStep !



True I never really grasped  Kondratiev wave theory tbh


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## Humberto (Feb 9, 2021)

Parties riven with infighting don't win do they? Dividing/purging is a sure way to lose support because it is going to piss off lots of potential supporters, hamper the party moving forward and look chaotic and otherwise shit to the floating voters they need. Starmer makes rash, bad calls to chase headlines. The different political strands in the Labour Party can't be that far apart that a decent capable leader couldn't have them  just about pulling in the same direction.


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## toblerone3 (Feb 9, 2021)

editor said:


> He's been gifted an open goal with the government's catastrophic handling of the Covid crisis and he's hoofed it into his own net. He's barely had an interesting thing to say about, well, anything. He's a total fucking disaster. Labour should be miles ahead in the polls and instead they're struggling to stay on a par with a spectacularly incompetent government who are - quite literally - responsible for the unnecessary deaths of thousands of people.



Just as a matter of interest what do you think would've been a good way of handling the Covid crisis?  ....and who were the people in the British political scene who were consistently calling for for these strategies?


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## editor (Feb 9, 2021)

toblerone3 said:


> Just as a matter of interest what do you think would've been a good way of handling the Covid crisis?


That's been discussed in depth on other threads, but with the UK having the highest death rate in the world, we've clearly done the shittiest possible job of handling the crisis. And what has Starmer done to call the government to account over the preventable deaths of tens of thousands of people? This should be the moment where the opposition rises up and rips into the government and fights for the people. 

And he's done, what, exactly?


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## toblerone3 (Feb 9, 2021)

JTG said:


> It's not that simple, no. Not with the culture wars in full flow and the Tories' 40% doing well enough that they're not going to shift any time soon.
> 
> Corbyn's vision of selling an alternative vision got some traction (and I understand not enough) for a period and honestly, given the a bove, I don't see how the approach of greater managerial competence being tried now is any more likely to succeed.


 I think you're right managerial competence is not enought. Starmer needs to develop some big and radical ideas in the next 12-18 months. Not sure if there was much capital to be made out of attacking the government's mishandling of COVID though.


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## toblerone3 (Feb 9, 2021)

editor said:


> This should be the moment where the opposition rises up and rips into the government and fights for the people.



Fights for the people to be able to do what exactly?  I don't think there is very much political capital to be made from the government's mishandling of COVID.   If there's a specific thing that needs to be done now and the government is not doing it, yes then he should fight for it.   But what is that thing?


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## The39thStep (Feb 9, 2021)

Humberto said:


> Parties riven with infighting don't win do they? Dividing/purging is a sure way to lose support because it is going to piss off lots of potential supporters, hamper the party moving forward and look chaotic and otherwise shit to the floating voters they need. Starmer makes rash, bad calls to chase headlines. The different political strands in the Labour Party can't be that far apart that a decent capable leader couldn't have them  just about pulling in the same direction.


Didnt seem to affect Johnson and the Tories when they purged the Remainers tbh


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## editor (Feb 9, 2021)

toblerone3 said:


> Fights for the people to be able to do what exactly?  I don't think there is very much political capital to be made from the government's mishandling of COVID.   If there's a specific thing that needs to be done now and the government is not doing it, yes then he should fight for it.   But what is that thing?


If you can't see anything that the opposition party could and should have been doing against the government's disastrous covid policies in the last year, then I'm not minded to list them all here, sorry,


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## toblerone3 (Feb 9, 2021)

editor said:


> If you can't see anything that the opposition party could and should have been doing against the government's disastrous covid policies in the last year, then I'm not minded to list them all here, sorry,



Dont need to go back over the history of the past year or make a list. But what is the top one thing that the government is not doing that it should be doing right now?


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## Humberto (Feb 9, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Didnt seem to affect Johnson and the Tories when they purged the Remainers tbh



Yes fair enough, though PLP was undermining Corbyn to some extent.


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## The39thStep (Feb 9, 2021)

Humberto said:


> Yes fair enough, though PLP was undermining Corbyn to some extent.


To _some _extent? That was their full time job imo.


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## editor (Feb 9, 2021)

And what the fuckety fuck is this Trump-like horseshit? 



> The leaked strategy document, seen by the Guardian, advised Labour to make “use of the [union] flag, veterans [and] dressing smartly” as part of a rebranding to help it win back the trust of disillusioned voters. It also reveals that voters could not describe what or who Labour stands for.











						Labour defends new strategy to focus on patriotism and union flag
					

Leftwing MPs say plan risks alienating young and BAME voters and lacks ambition and authenticity




					www.theguardian.com


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## JTG (Feb 10, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> To _some _extent? That was their full time job imo.


They'd literally already attempted to depose him by this stage when Labour were 4/5 points behind in the polls - end of June 2016, nine months into Corbyn's leadership. Gap was bigger by the time the contest was concluded largely because May had become PM and everyone could see Labour were divided


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## JTG (Feb 10, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Didnt seem to affect Johnson and the Tories when they purged the Remainers tbh


They play politics on easy mode, same rules do not apply


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## ska invita (Feb 10, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Didnt seem to affect Johnson and the Tories when they purged the Remainers tbh


the purge stopped any infighting! purity of thought now reigns

Mays failure was a sign of toxic infighting , Johnson the solution


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## JTG (Feb 10, 2021)

ska invita said:


> the purge stopped any infighting! purity of thought now reigns
> 
> Mays failure was a sign of toxic infighting , Johnson the solution


Of course, the only time anyone in the British commentariat or whatever actually spoke darkly about 'Stalinist purges' it was in relation to the ones that only happened in their fevered imaginations under Corbyn's leadership


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## The39thStep (Feb 10, 2021)

Anyone read Owen Jones book on the Corbyn issue This Land,  or Pogrund and Maguire's The Story of a Movement or   Left Outside -The inside story of Labour under Corbyn?


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## agricola (Feb 10, 2021)

editor said:


> If you can't see anything that the opposition party could and should have been doing against the government's disastrous covid policies in the last year, then I'm not minded to list them all here, sorry,



This is, sadly, a symptom of what is wrong - they lack the knowledge to argue for a better covid strategy, just as they lack the knowledge to form a better and more honest appeal to "patriotism" / "normal people".  Unfortunately because they are in charge now, they think they have more knowledge than everyone else.


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## ska invita (Feb 10, 2021)

JTG said:


> Of course, the only time anyone in the British commentariat or whatever actually spoke darkly about 'Stalinist purges' it was in relation to the ones that only happened in their fevered imaginations under Corbyn's leadership


Massive missed opportunity , shouldve purged. He was actually a genuine party uniter, mixed front bench . Turned the other cheek. Ended up on the cross


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## JTG (Feb 10, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Massive missed opportunity , shouldve purged. He was actually a genuine party uniter, mixed front bench . Turned the other cheek. Ended up on the cross


Bearing in mind he was starting from a position of real weakness in the PLP - only nominated in 2015 due to the sympathy nominations from people like Beckett and only on the ballot in 2016 because he went to court - it was clearly difficult at first. Post 2017 a little easier I guess. But yeah, should have gone harder especially on the bureaucracy. And the big missed opportunity was automatic reselections (again pitched by disingenuous wankers as some kind of purging tool when it's completely normal in lots of other parties). Without giving the membership control over who gets to stand for elections, change is only ever going to be glacial and easily reversed.

The qualities you mention in relation to JC were what made him appealing but also his downfall. The right do not compromise and bully the soft left into going with them while the left get isolated while failing to fight properly when the opportunity is there


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## redsquirrel (Feb 10, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Anyone read Owen Jones book on the Corbyn issue This Land,  or Pogrund and Maguire's The Story of a Movement or   Left Outside -The inside story of Labour under Corbyn?


There was a reviews of both books in the LRB before Xmas.

Politics, Max Weber wrote, is a ‘slow, strong drilling through hard boards, with a combination of passion and a sense of judgment’. The maxim, from his lecture ‘Politics as a Vocation’, is now usually deployed to chide a left impatient for social transformation, but Weber’s account of political leadership deserves more than this. He has acute things to say about the tragedy entwined in all political action and about the ‘diabolical powers’ intrinsic to politics, which may warp a leader beyond recognition. He is sharp too on the subject of vanity, a cardinal sin in a politician, and its dependent disorders, lack of responsibility and lack of objectivity. Weber’s is a prescription for heroes; I wonder if any politician could meet it.

Weber scorns any politics, and any attempt at political leadership, that is not grounded in an undimmable passion. Such a passion animated what supporters of Jeremy Corbyn referred to as ‘the project’. To its adherents, the project promised the rehabilitation and rejuvenation of socialism in British politics; reform of the Labour Party’s moribund internal democracy; the building of a mass social movement to bring the party out of Westminster and into people’s lives; and the pursuit of a popular left-wing politics fit for the modern world, as alive to the threat of climate change as it was intent on reversing socio-economic precarity and the evaporation of workers’ rights. To its detractors this was just utopian grandiloquence; to wiser Corbyn-sceptics it was at least a sign of an emerging political realignment which would weaken the purchase of both the Blairite Third Way and Cameron’s bloodless Notting Hill Toryism.

The chief priorities of Corbyn’s Labour Party were neatly captured in two speeches made by John McDonnell, his shadow chancellor and often the project’s most eloquent spokesman. In 2016 he declared that Labour members would ‘no longer have to whisper’ the word ‘socialism’: the party would no longer be ashamed of its values. And in the dying days of the 2019 election campaign, he outlined a new social settlement with ‘foundations so deeply rooted that no Tory could ever tear them up’. As McDonnell delivered that speech he must have known that Labour wasn’t going to be elected. It was a missive to posterity: the project was collapsing beneath his feet.

Broad scope and lofty ambitions can conceal ambiguities and faultlines. Was the goal of the project primarily to wind the clock back, to undo the changes Kinnock and Blair had wrought within the party, and Thatcher in the country as a whole, by returning the trade unions to a central position in Labour and chasing a romanticised version of the postwar settlement? Or was it to bring the post-2008, post-austerity generation which had been so enthused by Corbyn into formal, institutional politics? Could the two ambitions be bridged? Why was it important to change the party’s structure, and how could it happen? Was it intended to put decision-making power back into the hands of union leaders or give it to individual members? How could the middle layers of the party – permanent staff and MPs – be brought on side? When talking about ‘the project’, who was included? Corbyn and his staff and advisers in Westminster, or the wider circle of activists and party members, or supporters in the country generally? During the last 18 months of his leadership, Corbyn himself, the one man who had sufficient power to impose clarity on any of these questions, seemed barely involved.

Left Out and This Land are both written by political journalists, the former by two well-placed Whitehall reporters and the latter by the most prominent left-wing commentator in Britain, a Corbyn insider. Gabriel Pogrund and Patrick Maguire have assembled their book from an impressive array of interviews with key members of Corbyn’s team, as well as with others implacably opposed to his leadership. Where they primarily document the project’s disintegration between the 2017 and 2019 elections, Owen Jones describes the emergence of Corbynism from the exhausted managerialism of late New Labour, gives a defence of its politics and examines its weaknesses. Both books will be painful and often infuriating reading for anyone who was at all sympathetic to these politics, but Jones has the harder task: to assess the failure of a project he championed, in which he was a significant player, and which depended on the work and was damaged by the flaws of people he is close to. Jones can rarely have felt so personally implicated in a piece of writing. He doesn’t shy away from self-examination: his relationships with the key actors are made clear, as are his ethical dilemmas as a journalist, trying to maintain both political commitment and critical independence. It is a far more honest account of those difficulties than is ever given by journalists of the political centre, or the right.


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## redsquirrel (Feb 10, 2021)

Jones is also seeking to salvage something from the collapse of Corbynism. That is presumably the point of his subtitle – ‘the story of a movement’ – and of his attempt at the beginning of the book to situate Corbynism in relation to the enduring crisis of European social democratic parties and, especially, to the history of UK protest movements – graduates from which initially gave Corbynism much of its fresh and irreverent energy. Corbynism’s connection to protest underlines a perennial problem for the left: extra-parliamentary movements often hit their limits when they try to bring about systemic change, but the transition to formal politics brings a different set of problems. For many younger supporters, Corbyn’s run for the leadership in 2015 was their first glimpse of the power of political parties to reach an entire country in ways protest simply cannot match. But the many thousands who were attracted into the party by Corbyn have always seemed a lost resource: neither the party nor Momentum, the organisation set up to mobilise them, ever seemed inclined to explore why they had joined or what their priorities were. They disappear from these books, too, as soon as the story at the top of the party starts in earnest. The circle of ‘the project’ shrinks.

This is not in itself a flaw. Both books are effectively court histories. Pogrund and Maguire write about Labour in Westminster; Jones writes about the left wing of the party, and provides a richer account of its ideological and political quandaries. Court histories are always useful, not least because they allow foot soldiers to find out how the generals behaved in private. As the cliché goes, they are history’s first draft: they determine the way the subject will be written about until, eventually, a revisionist takes up the task. (The gradual shift in our understanding of one of Britain’s most politically contentious decades – the 1970s – is an example of this process.) Jones is obviously motivated as much by a belief that the left should try to shape the narrative as that it should try to learn lessons from its period in power. It is wise to read both books with a sceptical eye: for those involved, the temptation to regard one’s past self with the wisdom of hindsight, to burnish one’s choices or disown them, must be overwhelming. (It is commendable that so many of Corbyn’s senior aides chose to speak on the record, seemingly with candour.) For court historians it must be tempting to play Procopius, revealing a secret history of political vice and personal flaws. Sometimes Left Out overreaches in this respect – repeated references to Tom Watson’s weight as an index of his appetite for controversy fail to convince. Jones, in his chapters on Brexit, and especially on antisemitism, moves in the other direction: in attempting to do scrupulous justice to his interviewees, he sometimes leaves us unclear whom to believe – but then Procopius didn’t have to worry about defamation suits.

Neither book offers an extended reflection on the power of the press. It’s possible that Jones omitted this because moaning about the right-wing media is a preoccupation on the left. But there are moments in Pogrund and Maguire’s book that seem to beg an exploration of press power: for example, their discussion of the anti-Corbynite journalist Tom McTague, who in 2017 uncovered evidence that Labour staff were running their own election operation in defiance of the leadership. They implored him not to publish and he kept their secret; the story only recently came to light. All journalists decide what secrets to keep, but few acknowledge the power they exercise in doing so. Without accounting for press power, and the active choices made by journalists, the mood of paranoia and bitterness which came to prevail in Corbyn’s office is quite difficult to explain.

It is an intellectual vice on the left to think that because the world is best understood in terms of the operation of broad structural forces, personal qualities are less important. With regard to political leadership, the past five years have tested that thesis to destruction. A leader’s first qualification must be that they should want to lead. Though Corbyn apparently bridled at McDonnell’s often repeated suggestion that he stood for the leadership simply because it was ‘his turn’, his first words to one confidant after squeezing onto the ballot were: ‘You better make fucking sure I don’t get elected.’ Perhaps the surprise rush of popular support made him warm to the role. But the ambivalence never went away, and with it came intransigence, obstinacy and an aversion to making decisions, especially difficult decisions involving confrontation – which means nearly all leadership decisions. In the latter half of both books Corbyn is increasingly absent, and his decisions, when he does make them, are Delphic. He sometimes seems irritated by having responsibility for matters that don’t interest him, even though, as his policy architect Andrew Fisher observes, ‘if you’re the leader you have to lead on everything, not just the things you care about.’

Corbyn’s reluctance to compromise on political matters can be overstated: political realism led him to jettison his long-held republicanism, though the tabloids spun a few scandals out of his residual discomfort. More substantively, he compromised on his opposition to the renewal of Trident partly out of recognition that the balance of opinion in the party was against him, but also because of a desire to waylay damaging national security stories. These outbreaks of pragmatism were rare, and often accompanied by small reassertions of autonomy, as when he slipped away from his protection officers, or made public appearances in a less-than-slick green suit his media handlers had banned him from wearing. Eventually, his capacity for compromise on principle – however small – seemed to vanish. The contrast with McDonnell, made in both books, is instructive: his only question for potential allies was ‘Will you help us win power?’ This sometimes led him to form improbable alliances, doubtless in desperation, but the question doesn’t seem to have occurred to Corbyn at all.

Political leadership magnifies personal faults so remorselessly that it can be easy to forget the virtues that won Corbyn the role in the first place. Running against a field of mediocrities fluent in non-committal soundbites, he showed an impressive ability to speak off the cuff with piercing clarity on the consequences of austerity. His ease around ordinary people and his avuncular scruffiness chimed with an anti-establishment mood. But support for him was never purely or even largely personal. His success was founded on his willingness to speak honestly about the problems the country faced, its manifold daily injustices, its government’s addiction to cruelty and humiliation – and his promise to change all this. That his rivals for the leadership were unable or unwilling to do the same was their fault, not his.


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## redsquirrel (Feb 10, 2021)

Having risen to the top of the Labour Party largely by being himself, Corbyn perhaps saw little reason to change. Sympathetic commentators in the early period used to cite a new, more consensual style of leadership, but what they were describing was a hope rather than a reality. Even at its most functional, Corbyn’s office was chaotic. Karie Murphy, to whom Corbyn eventually outsourced much of his decision-making, is said by one staffer to have declared: ‘This is a left-wing collective. There’s no one leader.’ Murphy insists that she never exceeded Corbyn’s intentions – others are less sure – but by failing to lead, Corbyn allowed the clashes and resentments to be expected even in the best-run political team to become fatal.

This wasn’t all his fault. If the reader ends up with the impression that the leader’s office hired on the basis of loyalty rather than competence, it is hard to imagine how it could have been otherwise. The description in Left Out of the party’s permanent staff as ‘toxic, distrustful and openly mutinous’ is if anything an understatement: effectively a network of Blairite leftovers, they seem to have regarded the party’s leadership and members, most of its MPs and the concept of democracy itself as impediments to their rightful rule. They worked assiduously to undermine the project. Both books are studies in the titanic vanity of politicians, from the leader’s office’s ill-fated attempts to engineer a Corbynite Glastonbury, to Gavin Shuker’s tortured comparison of his decision to leave the Labour Party to the Project Gemini spaceflight programme, to every appearance by the ‘glutinous’ Chuka Umunna. There is a darker side to this: both books describe the way the PLP’s regular Monday meetings often descended into screaming abuse from anti-Corbyn MPs, partly for the benefit of the journalists crouching at the door; it is hard to disagree with Diane Abbott’s verdict that the intention was to ‘break [Corbyn] as a man’. The abuse wasn’t directed only at him: staffers could expect similar treatment in the corridors, Corbynite MPs from their putative colleagues in the Commons, often from those fond of preaching about civility in the press. The most fatuous of the irreconcilables, Bermondsey’s Neil Coyle, took to bombarding Corbyn’s phone with late-night screeds. Andy McDonald, who served in the shadow cabinet, observes that such behaviour ‘would not be tolerated in normal workplaces’, and it was exceptional even in the fractious world of British politics. The party’s new leader agrees that this was a low point: shortly after Keir Starmer came to office he announced a drive to fix Labour’s internal culture, though its misfiring launch suggests something of the difficulty. Nita Clarke, whom he appointed to oversee the process, was revealed as an enthusiastic digital partisan of the party’s right and was gone within 24 hours.

Few of these stories are entirely new or surprising, but gathered in one place they soon become overwhelming. Anyone should be able to appreciate Corbyn’s resilience, but even his most admiring comrades will have to admit that the serious defects of his leadership cannot be explained away by talk of a hostile press and party. Serious conversations about strategy were avoided; advisers injected their own political obsessions into press releases or undermined collective decisions; Corbyn vanished at key points. Seumas Milne, appointed as a loyal and politically sympathetic figure to guide the communications strategy, was so obviously in the wrong job that it is all but impossible to understand how he remained in place after botching the response to the Skripal poisoning in 2018. Activists who spent the first half of December last year trudging from door to door in the cold may find it hard to stomach Milne’s airy response to a new staff member who asked to see the election strategy: ‘We don’t write it all down, it’s all too fluid, we have to deal with politics as it is each day.’ In his rare interventions, Corbyn was fond of invoking moral responsibility: ‘Members do not sweat night and day’ to see the party damaged by leaks, he declared in one email. Did they not also deserve competence and decisiveness at the top?

Objectivity and responsibility – the qualities demanded by Weber – were rarely on show in Corbyn’s office; he was usually unable to make a ruthless distinction between what could reasonably be kept and what had to be given up. Successful politicians have to be opportunists: in ‘Politics as a Vocation’, Weber writes that the political sphere has its own rules, which cannot be remade by sheer will. All the same, Corbyn’s popular touch did remake and expand what was understood to be possible in British politics. During his last party conference, even as his leadership was crashing, a restaurant in which he was eating had to close its kitchen because its staff demanded a group picture with him. Popular affection of this sort cannot be created out of thin air, and his successor may well miss it.


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## redsquirrel (Feb 10, 2021)

Milne often exhibited the intellectual’s clumsy grasp of practical politics, but he could occasionally see things others missed. He responded to the general election exit poll in 2017 – showing that Labour had surged, costing Theresa May her majority – not with elation but with despair: ‘It’s too soon,’ he muttered to himself, head in hands. Perhaps he only meant that if the campaign had lasted a few more days, Corbyn might have been walking into Number Ten. What’s more likely is that he understood this would be the project’s high-water mark. The 2017 election remains an awkward reminder for the right, and a totem for the left. Of the two elections held during Corbyn’s leadership it is the more interesting, because it demonstrates that Labour can win a significant section of the electorate with a manifesto well to the left of what detractors deemed plausible. May was a weak opponent, but she was still able to bring the Conservative vote-share to unexpected heights; the 2017 election is not just a story of Conservative weakness.

Milne’s pessimism wasn’t widely shared. Many in the Corbyn camp took the election result as a vindication of their political analysis – in which austerity and its consequences were central – and of their volunteer-heavy combination of populist messaging and face to face contact. This led to a subtle shift in the project’s ambitions. When Corbyn won the leadership, few even in his core team expected him to lead Labour into the next election, then slated for 2020. When he was pressed not to vote for Corbyn as leader in 2015, Clive Lewis replied: ‘It’ll be about democratising the party, handing power back to the membership and opposing austerity: why wouldn’t I back it?’ Once these goals were achieved, many expected Corbyn would sub in a more conventional politician, firmly of the left, to lead the reformed party into power. But with May’s majority shattered and the government unstable, the project expected opportunity to follow opportunity. The party, McDonnell announced, would now be on a ‘permanent general election footing’.

It wasn’t an implausible reading. When the country woke to the horror of the Grenfell fire a few weeks later, it seemed to encapsulate many of the issues Labour had campaigned on: the country’s deep inequalities; its disregard for the lives of its poor or black citizens; the catastrophic results of the Tory privatisation revolution. May’s inhuman response only strengthened the sense that things were moving in Corbyn’s direction. But Grenfell soon disappeared from the headlines, and the press turned its attention back to the familiar drama of Brexit. Milne dismissed those concerned with Brexit as engaged in an unserious ‘culture war’. But one does not always get to choose which war to fight.

In the wake of Labour’s defeat a year ago, some fantasised – with the benefit of hindsight – about what might have been if Corbyn had handed over the reins after 2017. Yet there were few plausible successors on the party’s left. An anxiety that surfaces occasionally in This Land concerns the party’s generational politics: its parliamentary wing is still dominated by the dregs of New Labour, and the fear must be that the left will repeat its mistake of the late 1980s and retreat to the political margins. That the continued dominance of New Labour thinking both laid the ground for Corbynism and choked off parliamentary support for it is an irony Jones never quite identifies, but which runs through his analysis.

Corbyn recognised the problem, as did younger MPs on the left such as Lewis. The obvious solution was to reform the party machinery to enable an infusion of new parliamentary candidates. It might seem odd that a leadership which had just defied all predictions and enjoyed an electoral surge should devote itself to party reform. For their Blairite critics, it was proof of the project’s fundamental unseriousness – though Blair enthusiastically remade the party in his own image prior to 1997, and the ferocity with which staffers at Labour HQ resisted Corbyn proves that control of the party matters to every faction. To control the party is to have the power to change the country. But for the project – showing its Bennite inheritance here – it went beyond that. Democratising the party and empowering its members would – so the logic ran – produce inspiring candidates of the left, ending the factional horse-trading that encourages the selection of mediocre MPs. It would also bring the membership closer to the communities it nominally represents. By these means, reform would guarantee the power of the left in the party even after Corbyn.

This was the thinking that informed the Democracy Review undertaken by Corbyn’s political secretary, Katy Clark, a former MP; it also inspired the drive in 2018, heavily promoted by Momentum, to introduce ‘open selection’ for MPs, making it easier to challenge incumbents. (MPs on the party’s right were eager to paint this as bullying, but this level of accountability already applies to Labour councillors, and is established in the SNP, Liberal Democrats and Greens. Few would claim it has transformed Labour councils into mini-Soviets.) Neither book remarks on the centripetal force Westminster exerts on grassroots organisations in the Labour Party; founded with grand ambitions to build a social movement, Momentum was often reduced to playing the role of factional battering ram, mobilising its huge email list to vote for its slate in internal elections and doing little else. It wasn’t enough: Clark’s review and the open selection motion were gutted at the 2018 conference.

That defeat isn’t much discussed here: in both books, 2018 is crucial because it was then that the turn to an anti-Brexit position inside the shadow cabinet began. (The story of Starmer’s ascent begins in earnest here too.) But the conference defeat was the more serious turning point: with conservative reforms to selection processes leaving incumbents with the advantage, there were not going to be many new Corbynist MPs. No successful challenge to a sitting MP was mounted ahead of the 2019 election. This was the moment the project started to die.

The role of the membership in a left-wing party is more vexed than is sometimes admitted. The party’s executive wing has always distrusted the membership – Sidney Webb referred to ‘groups of nonentities, dominated by fanatics and cranks and extremists’. Many in the trade unions are wary of the urban, middle-class skew to the membership, especially the active membership, and are jealous of their own remaining power. The historical solution to this difficulty was to give formal sovereignty to party conference, expressed through a carefully constrained membership vote, and effective autonomy to the parliamentary party – a mirror image of the split between the dignified and efficient parts of the British constitution. Critics of this system argue that it chokes off fresh talent and new ideas, while failing to provide an effective check on MPs or the leadership. But those wary of the biases of an empowered membership can find ample support for their view by considering one of the political disasters that proved most damaging to Corbyn’s Labour Party: Brexit.


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## redsquirrel (Feb 10, 2021)

‘The army is crumbling,’ McDonnell said when the Unite leader, Len McCluskey, pressed him on his growing receptiveness to a second referendum on Brexit. McCluskey was sceptical: he’d heard rumbles of discontent in the party’s northern heartlands. His allies in the leader’s office believed that McDonnell’s head had been turned by lobbying from the deeply anti-Corbyn People’s Vote campaign; it is more likely that he changed his mind in light of polling showing Labour haemorrhaging votes to Remain parties, and because of widespread disenchantment among party activists. In his view, no party could win an election without its foot soldiers; in McCluskey’s, the move would alienate voters in the Red Wall constituencies which had been slipping away from the party for decades. Both of them were right. Jones suggests that Brexit was an unwinnable conundrum for Labour, with every route leading to catastrophe.

In the aftermath of the 2019 election defeat, Brexit policy became the object of just-so fantasies and excuses on every wing of the party, from those who claimed the promise of Lexit autarky would have swept the country to those who believed the country which elected Boris Johnson had secretly longed for a champion of faceless technocracy. All this was as much about self-exculpation as it was a means of striking at familiar targets – Blairites, Trots, Stalinists. There is no doubt that Corbyn’s standing was damaged in some quarters by appearing to condone a drive to overturn a democratic exercise, in others by an apparently puzzling refusal to push back at the disaster being engineered by the Tories. Retreating behind an increasingly baroque attempt to defer the question may have kept an uneasy peace in the party, but it prompted disbelief in a country rapidly evacuating the centre ground.

Staffers interviewed in both books wonder if a clearer position after 2017 – accepting the referendum result, acknowledging the membership’s unease, backing a soft Brexit – might have yielded a way forward. Jones even sketches out what such a position might have looked like. But it’s easy to forget that the government really did seem to be splitting apart, and Labour MPs’ truculent consent to the post-2017 Corbyn hegemony would not have held had he looked like rescuing the Tories from their own mess. It’s noticeable that the issue missing from Jones’s sketch of a Labour position on Brexit is the one that was most perilous: immigration. At one point, a baffled Philip Hammond asked why Labour expected the government to retain freedom of movement as part of a Brexit deal. After all, he said, ending free movement is ‘what Brexit means’.

At least McCluskey and McDonnell were trying to face up to the facts on the ground. Corbyn, Pogrund and Maguire note, was ‘not a politician built for the Brexit age’, having far less interest in constitutional politics than his supposed Bennism would suggest; his boredom with the detail was obvious. The strategic ambiguity pursued by his team was a reflection of that boredom, and of a hope that by trying to talk about what they saw as motivating the Brexit vote – issues that were more comfortable and familiar for the party – they could move the public conversation back to austerity and injustice. Instead, the party often sounded irrelevant.

For many, the most miserable reading in these books, which were published before the release of the Equalities and Human Rights Commission’s investigation into the Labour Party in November, will be the chapters on the antisemitism crisis. Left Out tracks the failure to deal with successive waves of the crisis in painful detail; This Land attempts to think through the failure of the leadership and the wider left to confront the issue, but also underscores the cynical uses to which it was put by the party’s right. Jones’s account tends to the schematic, touching briefly on the increasing circulation of antisemitic ideas in British society, its distinctive historical form on the left as the ‘socialism of fools’, the political evolution of Israel since 1948 and its varying but near universal significance for British Jews. There are some gaps: any of the Israeli New Historians, even the most conservative, would raise an eyebrow at the absence of any account of pre-1967 violence, and the question of whether ‘settler-colonial’ is a useful label deserves greater exploration – but Jones has made a serious attempt to understand the left’s weaknesses as something other than the fault of the party’s right. His account is an improvement on the defensive response that the public’s perception of the problem with antisemitism in Labour was distorted, or that positive changes were made to disciplinary procedures after they were taken out of the hands of anti-Corbyn party staff. The antisemitism crisis cannot be explained away, and the statement by Momentum’s founder, Jon Lansman, that he felt ‘used as a Jew’ to defend the party, but was left without support afterwards, should be a source of shame.


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## redsquirrel (Feb 10, 2021)

Pogrund and Maguire chronicle the repeated attempts to head off disaster in the early phases of the crisis. Not every proposal seems plausible – it is hard to imagine Corbyn visiting Jerusalem, or risking a visit to a school full of unpredictable teenagers – but the failure to act on any of them is inexcusable. Jones narrates the wretched launch of Shami Chakrabarti’s first inquiry into antisemitism in 2016, when Corbyn seemed to his critics to equate Israel and Islamic State, thus creating a row that overshadowed its findings (themselves subsequently sidelined). A missed opportunity to give a speech at the Jewish Museum and the failure to pursue offers from pro-Corbyn Jewish intellectuals to ghostwrite or consult, seem negligent at best. The removal of any apology from Corbyn’s initial statement seeking to explain his approving Facebook comment on a mural featuring an antisemitic caricature was, in the words of Corbyn’s aide Laura Murray, ‘fucking stupid and tone-deaf’.

Part of the problem (again) was Corbyn’s obvious chafing against the requirements of party leadership, which now included engaging with strands of Jewish opinion he found uncongenial. Progress on the issue was continually blocked, not least because some of Corbyn’s long-standing allies on the anti-Zionist Jewish left – many of them his constituents – would persuade him that he didn’t really need to change anything. The issue was personal, too: friends testify that Corbyn – proud of decades of anti-racist activism inside and beyond the Labour Party – was deeply hurt by the attacks on him, especially when they came from newspapers with flagrant histories of racism. This is understandable, but it shows a degree of vanity a political leader can ill afford in a crisis.

The EHRC’s statutory inquiry into Labour is a sober, conservative and often lawyerly examination of the problem. It finds Labour responsible for three breaches of equality law, including indirect discrimination against Jews and harassment of Jews by party agents. It draws particular attention to political interference in the complaints process. Its recommendations – the central one is the establishment of an independent complaints process for antisemitism – were universally welcomed across the party. For a few hours it seemed as if a line had been drawn under the saga. Then Corbyn released a statement welcoming the recommendations, but insisting that the scale of antisemitism in the party had been ‘dramatically overstated for political reasons’ by the press and ‘our opponents inside and outside the party’. The party immediately suspended him. The move seems to have taken even Corbyn’s enemies by surprise; the left in the party was thrown into disarray. All sides fear a descent into another protracted civil war.

Perhaps that fear played on the minds of the NEC panel, composed of members from the party’s left and right, which unanimously reinstated Corbyn, after he had made a second, more acceptable statement, on 17 November. This episode has pleased precisely nobody: much of the party’s left adduced it as evidence of the new leadership’s intention to push them out of the party, while the failure to expel Corbyn has enraged those on the right who eagerly anticipated his removal. At the time of writing, though Starmer has readmitted Corbyn to the party, he has not restored the whip. This represents a truce, but like most truces it is uneasy, unstable and temporary.

Corbyn was not suspended on the recommendation of the EHRC; it has been made clear his initial statement on the report was the problem. But it remains unclear whether the party suspended Corbyn because it believed his statement to be antisemitic, or on the more general ground that he had brought the party into disrepute. If the former, then questions follow about why the party is dealing with the matter through a process just declared unfit for purpose by the EHRC. Some have suggested that even to mention media coverage or public perception in this context is to minimise antisemitism, but the report itself is careful to underline party members’ rights to freedom of opinion, discussion and dissent when it comes to considering the scale of antisemitism in the party. Critics of Corbyn’s position point to the report’s treatment of cases in which the minimisation of antisemitism is taken to constitute harassment (it is this aspect of Ken Livingstone’s behaviour, as part of his defence of remarks made by Naz Shah MP, on which the report dwells, rather than his more obviously offensive remarks about Hitler). As the socialist lawyer and writer David Renton points out, the Equalities Act sets a bar here: judges must consider not only the feeling of offence but whether that feeling is objectively reasonable.

Corbyn’s comment was not a denial that antisemitism exists within the party, but a claim that its prevalence has been overstated, and that the overstatement itself has had harmful effects and was employed for political ends. That is certainly an arguable claim, but – like the arguments against it – it is legitimate political speech. One might think his initial statement tin-eared, or that it wasn’t sufficiently reflective, or that it repeated his tic of mentioning antisemitism along with ‘other forms of racism’ as if it weren’t serious enough on its own terms, or did not take specific forms disanalogous to other racisms. But none of that can possibly justify Corbyn’s suspension, still less the suspension of members discussing it in their constituency parties.

If, as looks likely, the EHRC report itself is occluded by the controversy, it will be another missed opportunity. It offers a chance to think about the way antisemitism enters politics, and how to prevent its growth. A functional, trusted and interference-free disciplinary process is a necessary foundation, but isn’t in itself sufficient. The origins of antisemitism are not bureaucratic but political. The authors note the digital and social origin of many of the cases they reviewed: likes on social media, shared posts, status updates. It is possible to join the Labour Party – and loudly proclaim your membership – entirely digitally, without making any direct contact with the rest of the party, or having any opportunity for political education. Labour has, in any case, rarely taken the political education of its officials, let alone its members, as seriously as it should. Ceding the digital space to the conspiracy theorists populating Facebook groups risks letting a problem grow unseen. This is a challenge for political culture as a whole, whatever specific relevance it has for Labour. A perfect disciplinary process might catch every instance of offensive behaviour: a better strategy would seek to prevent them occurring in the first place.

The 2019 election occupies only a small portion of these books: although rumours occasionally escaped the office, few of those going door to door realised that Corbyn’s team had broken down, riven by Brexit, antisemitism and questions of basic strategy. In time, perhaps some of the details will come to seem bleakly comic: the treatment of the party’s communications ‘grid’ as a secret equivalent to the nuclear codes, kept even from high-ranking staff, is particularly farcical. In retrospect, the internal collapse of the project was nowhere more obvious than in the party’s policy conveyor belt: increasingly aware, in the words of the polling consultant Marcus Roberts, that ‘the soufflé wouldn’t rise twice,’ they attempted to replace organic enthusiasm with a blitzkrieg of pledges. It is a lesson that political tides cannot be generated – they can only be ridden.


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## redsquirrel (Feb 10, 2021)

The left’s control over the party and membership ebbed rapidly after the election; it was always more fragile than political commentators made out. Now the generational problem that worries Jones became plain: potential successors were too new to Parliament or too old, and the project was too divided to give Rebecca Long-Bailey, its eventual candidate, much of a push. It goes politely unremarked in both these books, but the lack of succession planning – either for a standard-bearer in Parliament, or for the left within the party – is puzzling.

Anyone looking for insight into Starmer, whose victory in the succession race was obvious months before it concluded, will come away with very little. Though he was once billed as an arch-Remainer, his affection for the EU seems to have been largely strategic; it has disappeared in office. His ten pledges – promises to maintain the core of Corbynite economic and social policy – have fared better so far, though there is reason to be sceptical of their durability. Until Corbyn’s suspension, the Thermidor many on the party’s left feared had not transpired: even now, the leader’s office would prefer to avoid factional conflict (which may account for the panicked reaction to its resurgence). The left remains in disarray: some have taken to mimicking the Blairite irreconcilables of Corbyn’s tenure, sniping from the sidelines in what is sometimes obvious bad faith; others have been reborn as unconvincing Starmerites, or taken vows of silence; others still have abandoned the party for the political margins – or simply to get some peace.

Of the goals envisioned by Clive Lewis – democratisation, empowerment of the membership, anti-austerity politics – only the last seems to have been accomplished. The centre of gravity in British politics and in the Labour Party has shifted to the left: how long this will last in the post-Covid economic turbulence is difficult to assess. McDonnell, who emerges in both books as the most serious and determined politician in the Corbyn circle, is largely responsible for that shift. He was willing to make the necessary compromises, the cold assessments of what should be kept and what sacrificed: it is hard not to wonder, along with Jones, whether he isn’t the Labour left’s ‘lost leader’. At times in both books he seems to be holding the project together with his bare hands. It is a reminder that the alchemy of high office is unpredictable: one Labour grandee, backstage at party conference a few years ago, remarked on the astonishing transformation of ‘the world’s most sectarian man’, exhorting the rest of the left to follow McDonnell’s example.

Left Out ends with the Corbynites out in the cold. Jones, by contrast, concludes with a defence of the project’s politics. Peter Mandelson, a sepulchral voice of Blairism, reads him the chargesheet: Corbynism failed, and its failures were congenital, not contingent; the damage done to the party was immense. A more self-aware critic might have admitted his own part in creating these problems, some of which preceded Corbyn and have outlasted him. But Jones’s defence is more interesting, as he attempts to rescue Corbynism’s domestic programme, shorn of its international commitments, as a new common sense on the left, and the only possible response to this century’s political and ecological crises.

Corbyn would no doubt argue that his domestic and international commitments are of a piece, but Jones is making a brutal assessment, of the sort too often lacking in the past few years, of what is possible. This Land and Left Out are accounts of failure in political leadership, a failure compounded by the left’s uncertainty about what constitutes good leadership. We might be sceptical of Weber’s fascination with the heroism of individual leaders, but his real scorn was reserved for those who believe in nothing, or treat compromise as an end in itself. ‘What is possible,’ he wrote, ‘would never have been achieved if, in this world, people had not repeatedly reached for the impossible.’ None of the problems to which Corbynism was a response has disappeared. ‘Only someone who is certain that he will not be broken when the world, seen from his point of view, is too stupid or too base for what he wants to offer it, and who is certain that he will be able to say “Nevertheless” in spite of everything – only someone like this has a “vocation” for politics.’ Yes, still: nevertheless.


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## redsquirrel (Feb 10, 2021)

Sorry didn't quite realise how many posts it would take to c&p it all


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## teqniq (Feb 10, 2021)

Heh:


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## FridgeMagnet (Feb 10, 2021)

redsquirrel said:


> Sorry didn't quite realise how many posts it would take to c&p it all


Interesting read.


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## Smokeandsteam (Feb 10, 2021)

redsquirrel said:


> Sorry didn't quite realise how many posts it would take to c&p it all



No need to apologise. Thanks for posting. I’ve pasted them back together to read tonight. Thanks redsquirrel


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## hitmouse (Feb 10, 2021)

Bad news for Starmer, it appears a number of Labour peers are failing to respect the party's official "it's impossible to say whether murder is good or bad" stance: 18 Labour peers break whip in bid to ban murder, torture, rape in ‘spycops’ bill – LabourList


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## kebabking (Feb 11, 2021)

It appears Sir Keith's time really is up.

Devastating stuff.


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## Shechemite (Feb 11, 2021)

They were no help during the mental health act review in 2018. Keir is well rid.


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## ska invita (Feb 11, 2021)

Forde Inquiry report delayed indefinitely, chair tells Labour Party – LabourList
					

The chair of the Forde Inquiry looking into the 'Labour leaks' report has announced that its conclusion is now delayed indefinitely as it has "recently…




					labourlist.org
				




total outrage


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## TopCat (Feb 12, 2021)

kebabking said:


> It appears Sir Keith's time really is up.
> 
> Devastating stuff.



It says he has not been a member for years so they can’t expel him.


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## kebabking (Feb 12, 2021)

TopCat said:


> It says he has not been a member for years so they can’t expel him.



Yeah, I saw that - this is akin to my ex-wife opening her front door and yelling down the street that I'm a bastard, and I'd better not ask her if we can get back together.

We live 300 miles apart and I haven't spoken to her in about 5 years, I'm married to someone else and have been for more than a decade.

Such action would say rather more about my ex-wifes' ability to delude herself as to my feelings towards her than it does the likelihood of us getting back together. 

I, for one, am shocked - shocked I say - that a groupette of lefty lawyers have displayed their laughably deranged sense of self-importance in such a way. Shocked.


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## ska invita (Feb 12, 2021)

JTG said:


> Bristol


Any gossip on this?


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## JTG (Feb 12, 2021)

Fun and games at the Bristol West AGM last night


Had supposed to have been in November but postponed by SW Regional Office
In the intervening period, various left members of the CLP suspended on spurious grounds
Regional Office decided to run the new AGM themselves
Outgoing committee pointed out flaws in RO's planning such as not allowing pre-registration, members not receiving link to the meeting even by yesterday etc. RO ignored all advice
Left slate candidate for chair told yesterday that she was not eligible as in arrears since November. She wasn't aware of this and is on UC. Members in arrears are still considered to be members until they reach six months without payment
Meeting opened at 5:30pm. Over 500 people in attendance. Ballots not received by many for several hours (appears to be non-partisan as even Thangam Debbonaire was saying in a group chat that she hadn't had hers). Voting deadline extended several times and finally concluded around midnight. Six and a half hours after the meeting started.
When voting eventually opened, many people report that both candidates for one position were on the same line and shared one voting box. Reports that some people were able to vote twice.
At the end of it all, the right ('Unity' arf) slate swept all positions. Vote figures appear to show that around 150 people were in the meeting but did not vote - many people had to leave early due to the excessive length of the meeting.

Bristol Momentum and left members deeply unhappy at what appears to have been a stitch up of one of the biggest and most troublesome (to the leadership) CLPs in the country. Obvious what was going to happen there for months but they're going down fighting. Expect them to increase their activity in ACORN, the Bristol Uni rent strike and food projects now I guess. Also expect the Greens to do very well in central/west districts of Bristol in May as I posted before


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## JTG (Feb 12, 2021)

Oh, the teller for the vote was an openly partisan right winger whose awful anti-left and transphobic tweets have been polluting my twitter timeline lately. Genuinely nasty piece of work who appears patently unsuitable for the role of counting votes


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## ska invita (Feb 12, 2021)

Any idea about a complaints procedure? I guess its a bit like the police investigating themselves

so depressing


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## JTG (Feb 12, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Any idea about a complaints procedure? I guess its a bit like the police investigating themselves
> 
> so depressing


I mean usually you'd get the Regional Office to intervene but, erm....

There will be complaints but no consequences for anybody. That's how the party works, it's grimly corrupt.


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## Wilf (Feb 12, 2021)

editor said:


> He's been gifted an open goal with the government's catastrophic handling of the Covid crisis and he's hoofed it into his own net. He's barely had an interesting thing to say about, well, anything. He's a total fucking disaster. Labour should be miles ahead in the polls and instead they're struggling to stay on a par with a spectacularly incompetent government who are - quite literally - responsible for the unnecessary deaths of thousands of people.


Burnham would have been an awful leader with awful politics, but he does at least have the ability to shout and look passionate. Within reason, _anybody _who could shout would do better than Sir Keith.


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## Wilf (Feb 12, 2021)

Labour are stuck with Keith aren't they?  Even if Labour's poll ratings get worse and they show no signs of gettting the red wall back, there's no way they can hold a 'self indulgent' leadership contest over the next 18 months given the fall out from Covid.  After that you are getting too close to 2024.  Don't think there will be enough pressure in the party to call a contest anyway.  Only parallel would be something like duncan smith resigning as tory leader because he knew he was shit and heading for a no confidence vote. In his heart of hearts, Keith may realise the former, but won't be facing the latter.


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## JTG (Feb 12, 2021)

Wilf said:


> Labour are stuck with Keith aren't they?  Even if Labour's poll ratings get worse and they show no signs of gettting the red wall back, there's no way they can hold a 'self indulgent' leadership contest over the next 18 months given the fall out from Covid.  After that you are getting too close to 2024.  Don't think there will be enough pressure in the party to call a contest anyway.  Only parallel would be something like duncan smith resigning as tory leader because he knew he was shit and heading for a no confidence vote. In his heart of hearts, Keith may realise the former, but won't be facing the latter.


I dunno, never underestimate the capacity of Labour's right wing to stab their erstwhile allies in the back whilst shooting themselves in the foot


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## two sheds (Feb 12, 2021)

All will become clear 









						Keir Starmer to launch fightback with Labour policy blitz
					

Leader to begin setting out key planks of a future Labour government after concerns over direction




					www.theguardian.com


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## ska invita (Feb 12, 2021)

Wilf said:


> Labour are stuck with Keith aren't they?  Even if Labour's poll ratings get worse and they show no signs of gettting the red wall back, there's no way they can hold a 'self indulgent' leadership contest over the next 18 months given the fall out from Covid.  After that you are getting too close to 2024.  Don't think there will be enough pressure in the party to call a contest anyway.  Only parallel would be something like duncan smith resigning as tory leader because he knew he was shit and heading for a no confidence vote. In his heart of hearts, Keith may realise the former, but won't be facing the latter.



In my mind the Forde inquiry is huge. The fact they're trying to suppress it suggests there must be serious dirt in there. Of course we're used to everything being whitewashed but it would take some serious effort to neutralise that. I'm not sure it's possible. From whispers it sounds like it went beyond its remit as there was so much testimony. Not worth speculating more than that really. Would it sink Starmer? Almost certainly not, but it could wound and open up warfare within the ranks.


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## lazythursday (Feb 12, 2021)

ska invita said:


> In my mind the Forde inquiry is huge. The fact they're trying to suppress it suggests there must be serious dirt in there. Of course we're used to everything being whitewashed but it would take some serious effort to neutralise that. I'm not sure it's possible. From whispers it sounds like it went beyond its remit as there was so much testimony. Not worth speculating more than that really. Would it sink Starmer? Almost certainly not, but it could wound and open up warfare within the ranks.


What do you think the reasoning is behind the current suppression? As clearly it's impossible to keep reports like this hidden away for ever - so if the authors can't be lent on to amend it it surely just comes down to when it is best time-wise for the leadership to get it out of the way. Waiting for some other big story to break and "a good day to bury bad news"? Because surely it would be better tactically for Starmer to get it out of the way now rather than just after bad local election results.


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## ska invita (Feb 12, 2021)

lazythursday said:


> What do you think the reasoning is behind the current suppression? As clearly it's impossible to keep reports like this hidden away for ever - so if the authors can't be lent on to amend it it surely just comes down to when it is best time-wise for the leadership to get it out of the way. Waiting for some other big story to break and "a good day to bury bad news"? Because surely it would be better tactically for Starmer to get it out of the way now rather than just after bad local election results.


no idea
its not a good moment right now because he's officially having a bad time at the moment according to the press


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## chilango (Feb 12, 2021)

I'm not sure he"ll still be leader come the next GE.

I think they'll take a pounding at the next Locals. Let's see what happens then.


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## two sheds (Feb 12, 2021)

If so he'll undoubtedly be seen as having been too radically left wing to be elected.


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## chilango (Feb 12, 2021)

two sheds said:


> If so he'll undoubtedly be seen as having been too radically left wing to be elected.



Oh I'm sure they'll blame it on the legacy of Corbynism or something.


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## JTG (Feb 12, 2021)

chilango said:


> Oh I'm sure they'll blame it on the legacy of Corbynism or something.


Of course they will. They'll have gone backwards from the 16/17 results but it will definitely all be JC's fault


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## ska invita (Feb 12, 2021)

chilango said:


> I think they'll take a pounding at the next Locals. Let's see what happens then.


someone posted something about that saying the previous local elections went particularly badly for reasons i cant remember and there should be some positive correction for Labour - despite Starmers best efforts. I cant remember any more than that.


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## SpookyFrank (Feb 12, 2021)

two sheds said:


> All will become clear
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The focus group results must have come back.

Policy predictions:

Law and order, unless you're a policeman in which case the law will state that nobody can politely ask you to please stop breaking the law.
Fairness for all, except for poor people who are only cluttering up the place anyway.
Equality for all, except for people who daily mail readers don't like.
Education for all, except kids who used to be taught by the teachers who died of covid because we didn't want to be seen caving in to the unions.
Healthcare for all, as long as that doesn't involve de-privatising anything.
Housing for all, if that's OK with the property developers and landlords who are coining it by ensuring that the need for housing continues to exceed supply.

Can't fucking wait to vote for that.


----------



## belboid (Feb 12, 2021)

Yeah, it’s 2016 seats that are being fought rather than the 2017 ones you might have expected, so labour were doing shite.  In Sheff we still hated the libscum so much it did them no good, might well be different this time around


----------



## chilango (Feb 12, 2021)

ska invita said:


> someone posted something about that saying the previous local elections went particularly badly for reasons i cant remember and there should be some positive correction for Labour - despite Starmers best efforts. I cant remember any more than that.



Do you see them making _gains_?

I don't. 

Surely more votes will drift to the Greens, Refuk and others - and especially to just not bothering.

I can't see _anyone_ becoming/returning to a Labour voter right now.


----------



## JTG (Feb 12, 2021)

belboid said:


> Yeah, it’s 2016 seats that are being fought rather than the 2017 ones you might have expected, so labour were doing shite.  In Sheff we still hated the libscum so much it did them no good, might well be different this time around


It's both isn't it?

The headlines will surely be in Scotland/Wales where I'm confident Labour will do appallingly.


----------



## belboid (Feb 12, 2021)

JTG said:


> It's both isn't it?


Our Labour Party branch hasn’t had a selection for another candidate so am presuming it’s only 2016.


----------



## ska invita (Feb 12, 2021)

chilango said:


> Do you see them making _gains_? I don't.


No i dont thats why that comment stood out to me as in opposition to my expectations


----------



## JTG (Feb 12, 2021)

belboid said:


> Our Labour Party branch hasn’t had a selection for another candidate so am presuming it’s only 2016.


They may want to hurry up then because I'm positive it's the elections held over from last year combined with the ones due for this year as well


----------



## Rimbaud (Feb 12, 2021)

JTG said:


> Fun and games at the Bristol West AGM last night
> 
> 
> Had supposed to have been in November but postponed by SW Regional Office
> ...



Honestly those fuckers really deserve to be wiped off the electoral map after their disgraceful conduct over the last few years.

Mind once they start losing Welsh seats to Plaid, English seats to the Greens and possibly have the Northern Independence Party eating into their vote, they will STILL insist they lost because they didn't wrap themselves in the flag and imitate the Tories enough, or they will blame treacherous left wingers amongst electorate for not loyally voting Labour. 

Deliberately alienating the youthful and passionate part of their party in favour of trying desperately to win over a handful of elderly Tories is going to mark the end of the Labour Party. It's just a matter of time.


----------



## belboid (Feb 12, 2021)

aah, this was to be Sheffield’s ‘fallow’ year so there weren’t meant to be any at all.  Will be the same in many other places too I guess


----------



## JTG (Feb 12, 2021)

Rimbaud said:


> Honestly those fuckers really deserve to be wiped off the electoral map after their disgraceful conduct over the last few years.
> 
> Mind once they start losing Welsh seats to Plaid, English seats to the Greens and possibly have the Northern Independence Party eating into their vote, they will STILL insist they lost because they didn't wrap themselves in the flag and imitate the Tories enough, or they will blame treacherous left wingers amongst electorate for not loyally voting Labour.
> 
> Deliberately alienating the youthful and passionate part of their party in favour of trying desperately to win over a handful of elderly Tories is going to mark the end of the Labour Party. It's just a matter of time.


The people they're desperately seeking to keep out of power in Bristol are the same ones who, for example, have led on setting up National Food Service efforts in Bristol to deliver 50,000 meals across the city during the first lockdown. They're the best, most dynamic people that they have but they're also left wing and a threat so have to be kept down and preferably ejected from the party.

I think Bristol NW, Kingswood and Bath CLPs all have their own AGMs under the auspices of RO to look forward to. Should be fun, especially Kingswood who were prevented from donating funds to ACORN and local foodbanks by the same regional office


----------



## JTG (Feb 12, 2021)

belboid said:


> aah, this was to be Sheffield’s ‘fallow’ year so there weren’t meant to be any at all.  Will be the same in many other places too I guess


Makes sense. Bristol used to be on that system until we moved to all out elections every four years in 2016. Everyone got an extra year in office over the last 12 months, which has left some councillors flagging a bit (the ones who wanted to step down and then couldn't)


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## redsquirrel (Feb 12, 2021)

belboid said:


> Our Labour Party branch hasn’t had a selection for another candidate so am presuming it’s only 2016.


Not according to Wikipedia, the 2016/2020 and 2017/2021 are going to be held together.


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## teqniq (Feb 12, 2021)

JTG said:


> Fun and games at the Bristol West AGM last night
> 
> 
> Had supposed to have been in November but postponed by SW Regional Office
> ...


This is just all kinds of awful.


----------



## JTG (Feb 12, 2021)

teqniq said:


> This is just all kinds of awful.


Here's what the Treasurer ballot looked like:



Apparently they were able to determine that the right wing candidate won despite the apparent ambiguity


----------



## JTG (Feb 12, 2021)

Regarding the voting software which couldn't cope with the large numbers of people attending Bristol West's meeting:



Completely bent


----------



## redsquirrel (Feb 12, 2021)

chilango said:


> Do you see them making _gains_?
> ....
> I can't see _anyone_ becoming/returning to a Labour voter right now.


I can see them making some gains, Starmer has probably attracted back a few liberals who could not bring themselves to vote the LP under Corbyn. And 2017 was a bad year for Labour in the LEs (27% in popular vote).

However, overall I think things will stay pretty much as they are.


----------



## Chilli.s (Feb 12, 2021)

JTG said:


> Here's what the Treasurer ballot looked like:
> 
> 
> 
> Apparently they were able to determine that the right wing candidate won despite the apparent ambiguity



Fuckin'ell, that makes the LibDems seem efficient


----------



## JTG (Feb 12, 2021)

Chilli.s said:


> Fuckin'ell, that makes the LibDems seem efficient


It certainly throws a fresh light on the Starmer regime's main campaign platform of competency


----------



## chilango (Feb 12, 2021)

redsquirrel said:


> I can see them making some gains, Starmer has probably attracted back a few liberals who could not bring themselves to vote the LP under Corbyn. And 2017 was a bad year for Labour in the LEs (27% in popular vote).
> 
> However, overall I think things will stay pretty much as they are.



Will that he enough to gain them actual seats though?

That's a pretty small market segment there.


----------



## redsquirrel (Feb 12, 2021)

chilango said:


> Will that he enough to gain them actual seats though?
> 
> That's a pretty small market segment there.


Yes but probably geographically quite a useful one. Losing votes in safe seats to gain some LDs in more marginal seats is a good deal electorally


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## chilango (Feb 12, 2021)

redsquirrel said:


> Yes but probably geographically quite a useful one. Losing votes in safe seats to gain some LDs in more marginal seats is a good deal electorally



What LDs?

Surely that's an even smaller market share?


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## redsquirrel (Feb 12, 2021)

chilango said:


> What LDs?
> 
> Surely that's an even smaller market share?


Floating Lab/LD voters may be small market share but I suspect that electorally they carry a decent bang for their buck (LDs took 18% of vote in 2017 so not negligible).

EDIT: I'm not saying that there is going to be some major gains, just that do not think it is especially unlikely that Labour could make gains. I predication would be that the results under Starmer are pretty similar to those under Corbyn, a bit of a mixed bag.

EDIT2: And the LP have eaten into the lead that the Tories had at the 2019 GE, how much of that is Starmer's doing is open to question but they have gain some vote share.


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## JTG (Feb 12, 2021)

This is all well and good but turnout is going to be unpredictable to say the least and may well not be in Labour's favour


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## SpookyFrank (Feb 12, 2021)

chilango said:


> What LDs?
> 
> Surely that's an even smaller market share?



This is a party that thinks reactionary nationalists are the demographic with the fewest political parties competing for their attention and a hitherto completely undiscovered source of votes.


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## JTG (Feb 12, 2021)

Anyway, surely there must be some good news for Sir Keithalot

Oh


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## Leighsw2 (Feb 12, 2021)

Interesting view here:


No Labour Leader winning, from Opposition, after about three years due to attritional issues such as press coverage. Interesting.


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## redsquirrel (Feb 12, 2021)

Eh what about Attlee and Wilson? That's two out of the four Labour PMs that have won from opposition.

It's just a Blair puff piece, twaddle


----------



## JTG (Feb 12, 2021)

redsquirrel said:


> Eh what about Attlee and Wilson? That's two out of the four Labour PMs that have won from opposition.


Attlee had been in government for five years before 1945


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## redsquirrel (Feb 12, 2021)

JTG said:


> Attlee had been in government for five years before 1945


In a national government, Labour were still the opposition party in many ways.
And if you are excluding Attlee you down to a sample of three


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## JTG (Feb 12, 2021)

redsquirrel said:


> In a national government, Labour were still the opposition party in many ways.
> And if you are excluding Attlee you down to a sample of three


You can't be in opposition if you're part of the government


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## JTG (Feb 12, 2021)

JTG said:


> You can't be in opposition if you're part of the government


That said, maybe this accounts for Keef's tactics - Attlee won a landslide after being Deputy PM so if he acts like he's Deputy PM it should be a cinch


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## redsquirrel (Feb 12, 2021)

JTG said:


> You can't be in opposition if you're part of the government


The LP was in opposition when the '45 election was called.


----------



## JTG (Feb 12, 2021)

redsquirrel said:


> The LP was in opposition when the election was called.


For a whole month prior. Come on


----------



## TopCat (Feb 13, 2021)

Keir Starmer to launch fightback with Labour policy blitz
					

Leader to begin setting out key planks of a future Labour government after concerns over direction




					www.theguardian.com
				



Kier attracts Liberal Democrat’s with his thrusting strategy.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 13, 2021)




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## JTG (Feb 13, 2021)

redsquirrel said:


> Floating Lab/LD voters may be small market share but I suspect that electorally they carry a decent bang for their buck (LDs took 18% of vote in 2017 so not negligible).
> 
> EDIT: I'm not saying that there is going to be some major gains, just that do not think it is especially unlikely that Labour could make gains. I predication would be that the results under Starmer are pretty similar to those under Corbyn, a bit of a mixed bag.
> 
> EDIT2: And the LP have eaten into the lead that the Tories had at the 2019 GE, how much of that is Starmer's doing is open to question but they have gain some vote share.


I do agree that there may be some mixed results. I had a look through various sets of locals/devolved parliaments/mayors from Corbyn and Miliband's eras and there wasn't always one story being told. Certainly you'd think London and any metro councils would still be pretty strong, Scotland still awful. The inbetween places may tell the tale.

I would be cautious about looking at GE vote share/national polling. Sometimes it's helpful, sometimes really not. I'm mindful of the dreadful locals in 2017 followed by the extraordinary GE a month later for example.


----------



## JTG (Feb 13, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Keir Starmer to launch fightback with Labour policy blitz
> 
> 
> Leader to begin setting out key planks of a future Labour government after concerns over direction
> ...


Yes, we definitely need to see more of Rachel Reeves, she'll get me back on board

Suspect there may be signs of them losing LDs again, though more data needed. Certainly I saw a number of Remain obsessives getting exasperated with him the other week, which may instigate some leakage back


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## nogojones (Feb 13, 2021)

redsquirrel said:


> EDIT2: And the LP have eaten into the lead that the Tories had at the 2019 GE, how much of that is Starmer's doing is open to question but they have gain some vote share.


The Tories have managed to kill off 120,000 and this is the best Keith can do?

Is the long term strategy hoping that they kill off a few million boomers in the hope the youth are less reactionary?


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## TopCat (Feb 13, 2021)

nogojones said:


> The Tories have managed to kill off 120,000 and this is the best Keith can do?
> 
> Is the long term strategy hoping that they kill off a few million boomers in the hope the youth are less reactionary?


I think the strategy is to appear sensible types, electable. Then wait for the govt to fuck it up again and again. The end of furlough is going to happen for instance and it will be carnage. 

I am not convinced though the LP are in a position to really benefit.


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## The39thStep (Feb 13, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Keir Starmer to launch fightback with Labour policy blitz
> 
> 
> Leader to begin setting out key planks of a future Labour government after concerns over direction
> ...





> Angela Smith, Labour’s leader in the Lords,....that voters would begin to see a more passionate side to Starmer.



Which would be like cross between a dead fish pursing its lips and a clip from Brief Encounter


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 13, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I think the strategy is to appear sensible types, electable. Then wait for the govt to fuck it up again and again. The end of furlough is going to happen for instance and it will be carnage.
> 
> I am not convinced though the LP are in a position to really benefit.


No mentions of the musician issue either


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## ska invita (Feb 13, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I am not convinced though the LP are in a position to really benefit.


Of course they can't benefit, Brexit is the biggest factor that torpedoed Corbyn and brave brave Sir Starmer is absolutely silent on the issue for fear of remoaning


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## redsquirrel (Feb 13, 2021)

nogojones said:


> The Tories have managed to kill off 120,000 and this is the best Keith can do?
> 
> Is the long term strategy hoping that they kill off a few million boomers in the hope the youth are less reactionary?


I'm not claiming that Labour under Starmer is going great guns but neither is it really bombing. Starmer is twat but the idea that the LP should be polling 10 points ahead is as unrealistic now as it was under Corbyn. There is a strongly partisan electoral situation and the geographic distribution of the Labour vote has been an issue for a significant period of time.


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## Smokeandsteam (Feb 13, 2021)

redsquirrel said:


> I'm not claiming that Labour under Starmer is going great guns but neither is it really bombing. Starmer is twat but the idea that the LP should be polling 10 points ahead is as unrealistic now as it was under Corbyn. There is a strongly partisan electoral situation and the geographic distribution of the Labour vote has been an issue for a significant period of time.



I agree with that. I also think, if Scotland is any sort of guide and I do accept things are somewhat different there with the SNP/Indy, that once Labour strongholds are lost getting them back is a major uphill struggle. Whilst Starmer is hopeless, I think the idea that he or anyone else could have turned it all around in 12 months misses how Labour has ended up in a hole that was a long time in digging


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 13, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I agree with that. I also think, if Scotland is any sort of guide and I do accept things are somewhat different there with the SNP/Indy, that once Labour strongholds are lost getting them back is a major uphill struggle. Whilst Starmer is hopeless, I think the idea that he or anyone else could have turned it all around in 12 months misses how Labour has ended up in a hole that was a long time in digging


It'd be a damn sight easier to turn around if sir shit stirrer and his party had principles instead of triangulating on every issue


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## Smokeandsteam (Feb 13, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> It'd be a damn sight easier to turn around if sir shit stirrer and his party had principles instead of triangulating on every issue



I don’t think there is any doubt about that. But the position Labour finds itself in has been decades in the making. The long years of trundling along with the neo-liberal orthodoxy, rotten Labour councils that have done nothing for ever, the retreat from communities and every day life, 12 years of Blairist triangulating etc etc


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## Leighsw2 (Feb 13, 2021)

redsquirrel said:


> Eh what about Attlee and Wilson? That's two out of the four Labour PMs that have won from opposition.
> 
> It's just a Blair puff piece, twaddle


Wilson was only elected Labour leader in 1963 before going on to win the 64 election. So you're wrong about that as well.


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## redsquirrel (Feb 13, 2021)

Leighsw2 said:


> Wilson was only elected Labour leader in 1963 before going on to win the 64 election. So you're wrong about that as well.


No I was referring to his election in 1974. He'd been leader of the opposition for longer than 4 years then.


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## Leighsw2 (Feb 13, 2021)

Fair point, though I could be pedantic and say Labour didn't really 'win' in Feb '74 as they got fewer votes than the Tories and didn't win a majority of seats. But, yes, Wilson did lead the party back into government from opposition, so it is a counter-example.

I still think Jeremy Gilbert - who is no 'blairite' by the way - is making a reasonable point. There are significant attritional factors at work that make it very difficult for a Labour leader to succeed in opposition unless they're very new in office. Which is why the first year is so important, if you look at the impact of Wilson in 63/64 and Blair in 94/95. Starmer has effectively blown his first year on Covid temporising and factionalism (rather like Kinnock over the miners' strike and Militant in 84/85) and it will be very difficult for him to come back. I would take bets on Oct or Nov for the Labour Right to start plotting to remove him.


----------



## redsquirrel (Feb 13, 2021)

Just to be clear I was not referring to Gilbert's tweet as a puff piece but the prospect article.


----------



## JTG (Feb 13, 2021)

Leighsw2 said:


> I would take bets on Oct or Nov for the Labour Right to start plotting to remove him.


They'll be doing it now, they just haven't started putting it into action


----------



## Leighsw2 (Feb 13, 2021)

redsquirrel said:


> Just to be clear I was not referring to Gilbert's tweet as a puff piece but the prospect article.


Absolutely!


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## JTG (Feb 13, 2021)

redsquirrel said:


> I'm not claiming that Labour under Starmer is going great guns but neither is it really bombing. Starmer is twat but the idea that the LP should be polling 10 points ahead is as unrealistic now as it was under Corbyn. There is a strongly partisan electoral situation and the geographic distribution of the Labour vote has been an issue for a significant period of time.


I tend to agree on how realistic it is to expect a situation akin to John Smith's lead after Black Wednesday. Just not going to happen. I do think that we're seeing, and will continue to see, a weathering down of Labour's left/green/youth/urban flank. They may be in a strong enough position to not see much electoral cost from this at first but then again the Scottish vote must have been softening for some time before it deserted en masse after the referendum.

The loss of members (100k in a year I keep seeing) and the energy of the activist base will surely hurt them in certain places as well


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Feb 13, 2021)

Leighsw2 said:


> would take bets on Oct or Nov for the Labour Right to start plotting to remove him.



You mean the Labour right who couldn’t even get a candidate on the ballot paper when Starmer won? If so, who? If you mean the ‘soft left’ who is their replacement? It’s hardly a feast of talent is it? Dodds, Nandy, that bloke from Wales who is Shadow Home Secretary, Miliband...


----------



## Leighsw2 (Feb 13, 2021)

I imagine they'll be looking for a plausible soft-left figurehead they can control. As to whom - we won't know until the Guardian announce it!

But actually you make a serious point - there's a total poverty of choice isn't there? And that alone may enable Starmer to stumble on - unloved by everyone - until 2024.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Feb 13, 2021)

Leighsw2 said:


> But actually you make a serious point - there's a total poverty of choice isn't there? And that alone may enable Starmer to stumble on - unloved by everyone - until 2024.



The lack of an alternative - both in terms of individuals but also of ideas - is an inconvenient reality that does suggest that. Not one Labour politician has set out a post covid vision that anyone minded to could coalesce around.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 13, 2021)

ska invita said:


> I wonder just how they'll use veterans


Given the flag-shagging, probably the same way Oswald Mosley did.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 13, 2021)

Burnham could be a viable candidate , he’d prob pull trade union support , northern Labour membership and critical support from what’s left in the Labour a party ? Dunno if he’s up for it seems a bit reluctant .( orig post said Starmer ffs)


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Feb 13, 2021)

redsquirrel said:


> No I was referring to [Harold Wilson's] election in 1974. He'd been leader of the opposition for longer than 4 years then.



Occurrs to me that the trend for a party leader to resign very soon after losing a general election seems to be a relatively recent thing - Winston Churchill, Stanley Baldwin (twice) and Ramsay MacDonald returned to being PM after a spell in opposition.  It's harder to see that happening now.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Feb 13, 2021)

Talking of unions the internal implosion and infighting of the ‘left’ in Unite, the victory of the right candidate in Unison,  whatever latest scandal the GMB barons are engaged in etc is also ‘good news’ as far as Starmerarma is concerned


----------



## Rimbaud (Feb 13, 2021)

Leighsw2 said:


> I imagine they'll be looking for a plausible soft-left figurehead they can control. As to whom - we won't know until the Guardian announce it!
> 
> But actually you make a serious point - there's a total poverty of choice isn't there? And that alone may enable Starmer to stumble on - unloved by everyone - until 2024.



A dearth of fresh political talent is an inevitable outcome of treating your most youthful and most impassioned supporters as enemies to be purged. 

The Labour Party is slowing dying and this is what is killing it.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 13, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Well, I for one am glad to see the party returning to the proven formula for electoral success that worked so well for Miliband.



Cue posed picture of Starmer attempting to eat a doner kebab.


----------



## ska invita (Feb 13, 2021)

Rimbaud said:


> The Labour Party is slowing dying and this is what is killing it.


This is the pattern across similiar european parties

The realities of Podemos and Syriza aside, an equivalent new UK party cant do anything meaningful in FPTP. I guess this is why right now theres so much chatter about having a Progressive Alliance with PR as its key uniting factor. Were PR to be achieved it would see the collapse of the Labour Party as we know it, and maybe there are those within the LP who realise that and that's part of their reluctance? With the Starmerites it cant be a political difference getting in the way


----------



## Leighsw2 (Feb 13, 2021)

Rimbaud said:


> A dearth of fresh political talent is an inevitable outcome of treating your most youthful and most impassioned supporters as enemies to be purged.
> 
> The Labour Party is slowing dying and this is what is killing it.


The shenanigans the other night at Bristol West CLP prove your point. The problem is that Labour's parliamentary elite came up through a NOLS/Labour Students/NUS/SPAD career structure that exists outside of the Labour party in the country. They don't view CLPs and ordinary members as recruiting grounds for new leadership talent but rather as expendable foot soldiers there to canvass for them at election time and to support their stellar political careers. Their opposition to Corbyn was primarily on this point, rather than any specific ideological or policy difference (though of course those existed as well).


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Feb 13, 2021)

Rimbaud said:


> A dearth of fresh political talent is an inevitable outcome of treating your most youthful and most impassioned supporters as enemies to be purged.
> 
> The Labour Party is slowing dying and this is what is killing it.



Correct, but again, this isn’t just a problem in the making of the last period. How many MPs have done a job outside of politics? How many come from the working class? Where are the cleaners, manual workers, shop workers? They stand out now whereas once they were the bulk of the PLP.

How many of them come from a political tradition - that did once exist In the Labour movement - where you have_ ideas and politics _and stand by them, argue for them, organise around them and if those ideas lose learn from the experience?

The Labour Party has never been what some claim it has or what that think it could be. But at least it once had some narrative way of explaining to itself where it had come from and where it might go. It was able to give the impression that it existed for something. Now, other than Guardian writers who does the party really speak to other than itself?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 13, 2021)

ska invita said:


> I think Clive L will stand for leader next time, and might even win. I think he's trying to position himself, not totally cynically, but with an eye on the top job. He's been outspoken several times since Starmer took over.
> No idea what deeper positions he holds though
> 
> ETA: just looked on oddschecker and he's not even on the very very long list, could easily get 500/1 on him as next PM which is a worth it bet IMO, BJ beats Starmer for term two, Lewis wins leadership and next election -long shot but worth 500+/1



Don't know about Lewis' convictions, but his seat has a long history of turning out freethinkers & municipal socialists in the ranks.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 13, 2021)

Lord Camomile said:


> Innit. As AOC said, "the difference between an organiser and a strategist".
> 
> "Should we talk to the people to find out how they feel? No, let's talk to a consultancy company"



There's the attendant problem that many of the larger PR consultancies that do this political stuff, are riddled with Blair-era PPCs & former & current Labour councillors. It kind of means that the consultants are just an echo-chamber for managerialist solutions.


----------



## redsquirrel (Feb 13, 2021)

ska invita said:


> This is the pattern across similiar european parties
> 
> The realities of Podemos and Syriza aside, an equivalent new UK party cant do anything meaningful in FPTP. I guess this is why right now theres so much chatter about having a Progressive Alliance with PR as its key uniting factor. Were PR to be achieved it would see the collapse of the Labour Party as we know it, and maybe there are those within the LP who realise that and that's part of their reluctance?


Does not the fact that the similar fortunes of centre-left parties across Europe (and the wider "West") indicate that the reason for such fortunes are less to do with the electoral systems and more to do with the structural factors.

What would this "progressive alliance" consist of? The LP with LibDems and Greens - all parties that have attacked workers. Would it include PC, a party that has stated it is willing to go into coalition with the Conservatives?
The German electoral system has elements of proportionality, where is the "progressive alliance" there? The SDP that is in coalition with the CDU, the Greens that are going to go into a coalition with the CDU and FDP?
In Italy where is the progressive alliance, PD and M5S? The existence of some measure of proportionality has not really kept a significant social democratic party alive.


----------



## JTG (Feb 13, 2021)

Leighsw2 said:


> The shenanigans the other night at Bristol West CLP prove your point. The problem is that Labour's parliamentary elite came up through a NOLS/Labour Students/NUS/SPAD career structure that exists outside of the Labour party in the country. They don't view CLPs and ordinary members as recruiting grounds for new leadership talent but rather as expendable foot soldiers there to canvass for them at election time and to support their stellar political careers. Their opposition to Corbyn was primarily on this point, rather than any specific ideological or policy difference (though of course those existed as well).


Nail on head. One thing that comes through when you see them speaking about the Corbyn support is how much they detest them for not having gone through this career path (and it is absolutely a career path for them). They can call on these networks for help and make sure they thank them effusively while pointedly ignoring others who may have put in more work. I saw this up close when Darren Jones in Bristol NW excitedly tweeted about Labour Students - a group who were disaffiliated from Labour for being fundamentally undemocratic remember - doing a campaign day in the constituency (and sticking to the more middle class areas) when Bristol Momentum had been organising canvasses up here daily. I'm not sure he'll be able to rely on that support next time around.

Bristol West update: social media manager is now throwing left members out of the CLP facebook group for no apparent reason. All part of the unity programme


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 13, 2021)

JTG said:


> COU stuff is entirely in line with the ongoing purge of anything remotely left or "Corbynite" within the party. It took ages to get off the ground due to internal opposition from the bureaucracy and had what seems to have been some success (Putney - specifically Roehampton I think - and some other places where the effect appears to have been to limit losses when compared to other similar areas). I mean, aside from the electoral effect, the ethos is that Labour should actually be doing stuff in w/c communities and the party right hate that.



Roehampton was centred a lot around what Wandsworth Council are trying to do to the Alton estate - basically a ham-fisted "regeneration" that'll ruin the unique architecture of the estate, & be visible as far away as Richmond. No-one wanted that, & Labour activists have thrown themselves into the fight to save council homes.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Feb 13, 2021)

ViolentPanda said:


> There's the attendant problem that many of the larger PR consultancies that do this political stuff, are riddled with Blair-era PPCs & former & current Labour councillors. It kind of means that the consultants are just an echo-chamber for managerialist solutions.


So we need to seize control of the tools of consultancy?

Time to start mutual education co-ops covering PowerPoint and Maslow's hierarchy of needs, comrades!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 13, 2021)

Lord Camomile said:


> So we need to seize control of the tools of consultancy?
> 
> Time to start mutual education co-ops covering PowerPoint and Maslow's hierarchy of needs, comrades!



No, comrade. We need to liquidate the consultancy class, with extreme prejudice!!! To Gulag with the reactionary intelligentsia scum!


----------



## cantsin (Feb 13, 2021)

ska invita said:


> *Demand For Special Labour Conference As Pressure Mounts On Starmer From Left*
> 
> 
> 
> ...



all about May elections for now, and personally think getting behind Bristol Momentum’s campaign strike ( in response to the SW regionals anti democratic p*ss taking ) is way fwd - let’s see how they get on w/o core activists , alongside the ‘ no discernible policies ‘ approach - they may do alright ( despite current polling ) , and then it’s decision time for leftists still in Party .

If they don’t , that’s the time to start applying pressure for a rethink


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Feb 13, 2021)

Lord Camomile said:


> So we need to seize control of the tools of consultancy?





ViolentPanda said:


> No, comrade. We need to liquidate the consultancy class, with extreme prejudice!!!



does marx say anything about ownership of the means of production of bullshit?


----------



## Lord Camomile (Feb 13, 2021)

ViolentPanda said:


> No, comrade. We need to liquidate the consultancy class, with extreme prejudice!!! To Gulag with the reactionary intelligentsia scum!


Oh 

It's just... I've learned how to do a couple of neat things in PowerPoint at work 

S'cool, no worries, liquids and gulags and such, yup.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 14, 2021)

No link as this is from a Murdoch rag...



How appropriate that the "Prince of Darkness" should be back in Starmer's LP.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 14, 2021)

Mebbe the LP will once again become “intensely relaxed about people getting filthy rich”?


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 14, 2021)

brogdale said:


> No link as this is from a Murdoch rag...
> 
> View attachment 254410
> 
> How appropriate that the "Prince of Darkness" should be back in Starmer's LP.


Mandelson was one of the architects of the theory that disillusioned or critical working class Labour supporters had nowhere to go so Labour could concentrate on the middle class


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 14, 2021)

ska invita said:


> *Demand For Special Labour Conference As Pressure Mounts On Starmer From Left*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


On the road to nowhere that lot.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 14, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Mandelson was one of the architects of the theory that disillusioned or critical working class Labour supporters had nowhere to go so Labour could concentrate on the middle class


Get the feeling that you could easily have included the word 'failed' in front of 'theory', there.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Feb 14, 2021)

Has anyone posted this yet?


----------



## ska invita (Feb 14, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> On the road to nowhere that lot.


Fast lane


----------



## JTG (Feb 14, 2021)

brogdale said:


> No link as this is from a Murdoch rag...
> 
> View attachment 254410
> 
> How appropriate that the "Prince of Darkness" should be back in Starmer's LP.



They literally have no ideas other than somehow rewinding the clock back to 1997


----------



## ska invita (Feb 14, 2021)

If Starmer's new policy announcements next week include Sure Start Im going to cry

Just maybe this is all a historic dead cat bounce for the Blairite spawn - hope springs


----------



## JTG (Feb 14, 2021)

ska invita said:


> If Starmer's new policy announcements next week include Sure Start Im going to cry
> 
> Just maybe this is all a historic dead cat bounce for the Blairite spawn - hope springs


Sure Start and deport all the forruns faster than Patel will


----------



## killer b (Feb 15, 2021)

Great piece here in the New Socialist - anyone know who George Peacock is? Google reveals only a dead mathematician...









						A Bad Week for Starmer, or worse?
					

The big "sell" of Starmer during his leadership campaign was competence. We aren't seeing much.




					newsocialist.org.uk


----------



## JTG (Feb 15, 2021)

Bristol Momentum vote 96% in favour of a campaign strike for the May elections


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 15, 2021)

Just a brief reminder of how some in the Labour Party left can  sell anything from a 2nd referendum to Starmer and make it sound left


----------



## brogdale (Feb 15, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Just a brief reminder of how some in the Labour Party left can  sell anything from a 2nd referendum to Starmer and make it sound left



Aged well, hasn’t it?


----------



## JTG (Feb 16, 2021)

Bristol West Labour members describe AGM as a ‘complete farce’
					

The Zoom meeting lasted six-and-a-half hours and ended at midnight




					www.bristol247.com
				




The CLP's social media manager saying there was 'no time' for speeches in a meeting that lasted six hours plus


----------



## teqniq (Feb 16, 2021)

Fuck. I would have lost the will to live.


----------



## hitmouse (Feb 16, 2021)

Can we expect a youtube compilation of the highlights to go viral?


----------



## lazythursday (Feb 16, 2021)

I'm looking forward to reading, at some point, Mason's mea culpa for backing Starmer. As he must have been thoroughly convinced that Starmer would be more left-oriented than has turned out, he must have been pretty heavily lied to. As whatever his faults I don't buy that he was deliberately shafting the left and expecting events to play out the way that they have.


----------



## Idris2002 (Feb 16, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Get the feeling that you could easily have included the word 'failed' in front of 'theory', there.


More than a feeling.


----------



## steeplejack (Feb 16, 2021)

Appointing a guy who knew how to win elections 25 years ago, really screams that the Labour Party are all over the critical challenges facing the electorate in 2021.

[Mandelson 1996] _Let's get it clear. No more old Labour, but a welcome in new Labour for those colleagues who recognise that they have to change"_[/Mandelson1996]

Next Tony Blair will put on a brown wig, grow back his early 80s 'tache and stand for Sedgefield with a cod Durham accent.

He'll be back leading the party by 2023.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 16, 2021)

Idris2002 said:


> More than a feeling.


unwanted ear worm alert!


----------



## Idris2002 (Feb 16, 2021)

steeplejack said:


> Appointing a guy who knew how to win elections 25 years ago, really screams that the Labour Party are all over the critical challenges facing the electorate in 2021.
> 
> [Mandelson 1996] _Let's get it clear. No more old Labour, but a welcome in new Labour for those colleagues who recognise that they have to change"_[/Mandelson1996]
> 
> ...


Guacamole, guacamole, men have named you. . .


----------



## Idris2002 (Feb 16, 2021)

brogdale said:


> unwanted ear worm alert!


Just recite the lyrics to the Pink Panther, that'll shift it.


----------



## JTG (Feb 16, 2021)

lazythursday said:


> I'm looking forward to reading, at some point, Mason's mea culpa for backing Starmer. As he must have been thoroughly convinced that Starmer would be more left-oriented than has turned out, he must have been pretty heavily lied to. As whatever his faults I don't buy that he was deliberately shafting the left and expecting events to play out the way that they have.


A mea culpa for saying Becky Long Bailey would be beholden to the Pope if she won the leadership would be nice as well


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Feb 16, 2021)

Revisionist Starmer Clique more popular amongst neo-liberal voters than Labour voters.


----------



## ska invita (Feb 16, 2021)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Revisionist Starmer Clique more popular amongst neo-liberal voters than Labour voters.



This is UK parliamentary politics in a nutshell: Labour is basically full of Lib Dems who only join Labour because its a route to power under FPTP (or because their parents named them Keir).
At the very least in the mainstream we should have the choice of a three horse race of Torys, LibDems and a Democratic Socialist Labour party, but instead its Tories plus two Lib Dem parties, one of which is propped up by disgruntled trade unions.


The most important stat there to me is only 24% Lab voters think unfavourably of Starmer. I expect he'd be happy with that!


----------



## Wilf (Feb 16, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Burnham could be a viable candidate , he’d prob pull trade union support , northern Labour membership and critical support from what’s left in the Labour a party ? Dunno if he’s up for it seems a bit reluctant .( orig post said Starmer ffs)


If there was some kind of Dallas style, walk out of the shower and history resets itself, I'd guess that the Labour party membership might just about go with Burnham over Keith right now.  Trouble is I don't see any way for that to happen. Starmer would need 12 months of awful polls before replacing him even becomes a public issue in the party. Then, at about 2 years out from an election, there wouldn't be much appetite for spending a few months on a leadership thing, particularly amid a covid 'recovery' period. They're stuck with him.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Feb 16, 2021)

Wilf said:


> I'd guess that the Labour party membership might just about go with Burnham over Keith right now.



At least spell his name right....it's Kieth ffs...


----------



## Wilf (Feb 16, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> At least spell his name right....it's Kieth ffs...


_Sir _Kieth.


----------



## steveseagull (Feb 17, 2021)

Wilf said:


> If there was some kind of Dallas style, walk out of the shower and history resets itself, I'd guess that the Labour party membership might just about go with Burnham over Keith right now.  Trouble is I don't see any way for that to happen. Starmer would need 12 months of awful polls before replacing him even becomes a public issue in the party. Then, at about 2 years out from an election, there wouldn't be much appetite for spending a few months on a leadership thing, particularly amid a covid 'recovery' period. They're stuck with him.



Elevate some god awful centrist MP in a safe seat to the House of Lords and call a by-election

. 
Starmer is fucked. He is about 400x more fucked than I had imagined him to be in a year. The man could not be any less fucked. Will it be a quick 'off with the head' or death by a thousand cuts?

I am calling early, Starmer's time is up.


----------



## Wilf (Feb 17, 2021)

steveseagull said:


> Elevate some god awful centrist MP in a safe seat to the House of Lords and call a by-election
> 
> .
> Starmer is fucked. He is about 400x more fucked than I had imagined him to be in a year. The man could not be any less fucked. Will it be a quick 'off with the head' or death by a thousand cuts?
> ...


He's basically the bloke they should wheel out to do the forensic thing. Wheel him out every few years when there's a major report and you want someone to go through it line by line (while everybody else nips out for a cig).

Purely at the level of performance, you need someone with a sense of humour for a kick off.  It's been a while since Labour had anyone leading them who seemed happy in their own skin.  Blair was, but that was because it was a lizard skin and he could shed it when it got too tight.


----------



## Raheem (Feb 17, 2021)

steveseagull said:


> Elevate some god awful centrist MP in a safe seat to the House of Lords and call a by-election
> 
> .
> Starmer is fucked. He is about 400x more fucked than I had imagined him to be in a year. The man could not be any less fucked. Will it be a quick 'off with the head' or death by a thousand cuts?
> ...


Thing is he definitely appears fucked. But I can't see any reason why he won't just carry on being fucked until the next election.


----------



## JTG (Feb 17, 2021)

Thing is the right will bide their time anyway. Tighten their grip on the party, wait until the time is right to defenestrate KS, get their person in charge. They won't mind losing another election to get there. Grim fuckers.


----------



## JTG (Feb 17, 2021)

Labour have suspended the Liverpool mayor selection process with ballot papers due out today. Candidates to be reinterviewed on Friday.

Left candidate Anna Rothery has the endorsement of Jeremy Corbyn amongst others

All completely normal and not a stitch up I'm sure


----------



## steveseagull (Feb 18, 2021)

Sir Keir's massive policy announcement was to be released tomorrow. It has been leaked to Lewis Goodall. 

Not surprisingly there is not a detailed manifesto for getting out of this hell scape. He should be put out of his misery or side-lined and never to be heard of again.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Feb 18, 2021)

steveseagull said:


> Sir Keir's massive policy announcement was to be released tomorrow. It has been leaked to Lewis Goodall.



back to the "vote for us, we're marginally less shit than the tories"


----------



## brogdale (Feb 18, 2021)

Anneliese Dodds doing the media round this morning suggesting tentatively that maybe, possibly the preceding decade of tory austerity had in some way some teeny-tiny impact on the UK Covid death toll.

Never mind mentioning the direct death toll from their class-war austerity.


----------



## Winot (Feb 18, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Anneliese Dodds doing the media round this morning suggesting tentatively that maybe, possibly the preceding decade of tory austerity had in some way some teeny-tiny impact on the UK Covid death toll.
> 
> Never mind mentioning the direct death toll from their class-war austerity.



She was rubbish on the Today program. She sounds too much like a politician. She needs to plainly set out why the Tories are bad, what Labour is going to do differently, and why that will be better for the ordinary voter. Using phrases like “Tory ideology” makes her sound like she is a poster on the politics forum here.


----------



## strung out (Feb 18, 2021)

Winot said:


> Using phrases like “Tory ideology” makes her sound like she is a poster on the politics forum here.


So she's a Stalinist then?


----------



## ska invita (Feb 18, 2021)

steveseagull said:


> Sir Keir's massive policy announcement was to be released tomorrow. It has been leaked to Lewis Goodall.
> 
> Not surprisingly there is not a detailed manifesto for getting out of this hell scape. He should be put out of his misery or side-lined and never to be heard of again.


i thought business rate holiday was already as good as announced for the coming financial year?


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 18, 2021)

Winot said:


> Using phrases like “Tory ideology” makes her sound like she is a poster on the politics forum here.


it's been used in something like 100 posts here out of ~ 2.7m posts in the politics forum. So not really. Fuckwit, cunt, twat, running dog of imperialism, these would be things that would make her sound more like she's a poster in our politics forum


----------



## ska invita (Feb 18, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> it's been used in something like 100 posts here out of ~ 2.7m posts in the politics forum. So not really.


you get better results for "tory cunts"


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 18, 2021)

ska invita said:


> you get better results for "tory cunts"


Just so


----------



## teqniq (Feb 18, 2021)

JTG said:


> Labour have suspended the Liverpool mayor selection process with ballot papers due out today. Candidates to be reinterviewed on Friday.
> 
> Left candidate Anna Rothery has the endorsement of Jeremy Corbyn amongst others
> 
> All completely normal and not a stitch up I'm sure




Originally I was reading the thread this was posted on because...



Seems like some at least have started to wake up and smell the coffee. With the constituency boundaries increasingly gerrymandered to favour the vermin the prospect of a FPTP win for Labour looks bleak, never even mind the present leader.


----------



## ska invita (Feb 18, 2021)

I do hope theres a physical conference this year 🍿


----------



## two sheds (Feb 18, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> it's been used in something like 100 posts here out of ~ 2.7m posts in the politics forum. So not really. Fuckwit, cunt, twat, running dog of imperialism, these would be things that would make her sound more like she's a poster in our politics forum


I _still _don't know what hegemony means and I've looked it up several times 

One thing the right wing does a lot better than we do is using language that people actually fucking understand.

Eta: what Chomsky said that you can't encapsulate the problem in just a soundbite because you have to go against peoples' underlying belief system but we often just don't seem to try.


----------



## redsquirrel (Feb 18, 2021)

teqniq said:


> Seems like some at least have started to wake up and smell the coffee. With the constituency boundaries increasingly gerrymandered to favour the vermin the prospect of a FPTP win for Labour looks bleak, never even mind the present leader.


But how does PR help the LP, or left-wing parties? More importantly how does it help the workers? 

Italy has a system that incorporates PR, they just had (yet another) technocratic government installed. Germany has a system that has PR, the SDP are in a coalition with the CDU and dying, and while the Greens have grown chances are they are going to go into coalition with the CDU (and FDP). 
Nether France nor Australian have FPTP (though neither has a electoral system that is proportional) and there is an absence of democratic socialist, or even social-democratic, parties there. NZ does have a PR system but again no significant social democratic party.


----------



## teqniq (Feb 18, 2021)

As a starting point it would hopefully create opportunities for fairer representation, what we currently have is a system where the dice have been very heavily loaded in favour of the vermin.


----------



## redsquirrel (Feb 18, 2021)

Do Italy/Germany/Scotland/NZ have "fairer" representation? What use is fairer representation if it does not change the neo-liberal politics of governments?


----------



## teqniq (Feb 18, 2021)

Sounds like what you're actually wanting is a revolution - not that I'm actually against that in principle, but realistically it's unlikely imo. Otherwise to change the way politics and governance is currently done to a socialist model is a very long-term project indeed. Moreover it would be fought tooth and nail every inch of the way by all the usual suspects.


----------



## ska invita (Feb 18, 2021)

PR, like Brexit, is good for democracy. Does that mean we get better governments? No, Brexit is currently extending Tory rule. Yet Brexit is still good for democracy.


----------



## ska invita (Feb 18, 2021)

two sheds said:


> I _still _don't know what hegemony means and I've looked it up several times


I have had that with Dialectics - i think I've got a very rudimentary grasp of that now after many years

Hegemony is a word I don't use, so could only do so clumsily, but I think its meaning is as simple as dominating, particularly when it comes to ideas, though it can be power more generally.

i.e the christian church was ideologically hegemonic in medieval europe
or the USA is a hegemonic power in international affairs

To have hegemonic control means to control the narrative, to control common understanding, or just dominate in general.
i think


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Feb 18, 2021)

teqniq said:


> Sounds like what you're actually wanting is a revolution - not that I'm actually against that in principle, but realistically it's unlikely imo. Otherwise to change the way politics and governance is currently done to a socialist model is a very long-term project indeed. Moreover it would be fought tooth and nail every inch of the way by all the usual suspects.



Well, a revolution would be _quite good _wouldn’t it???!

Anyway, leaving aside, for a minute, the current outcomes of the type of model that you propose which Red Squirrel has highlighted, how do you see this ‘socialist model’ happening?

In fact, isn’t the exact opposite of what you suggest likely to happen? Don’t these types of projects focussed on the capture of the state for socialist purposes tend to end up taking on the job of managing, rather than seriously challenging, capitalism, no matter how radical their original intentions may have been?

For example, phase two of the Corbyn project saw abandon the insurgent/social movement approach. Instead the focus was on the parliamentary games and positioning on Brexit. 

Or take Syriza and it’s political trajectory on gaining power where it made a series of policy changes to present itself as a party of government before eventually capitulating completely and signing up the EU punishment beating of the country.

Can you give an example of where the approach you are talking about has actually worked? Or come close to working?


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Feb 18, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> back to the "vote for us, we're marginally less shit than the tories"
> 
> View attachment 254911



'We'll still kick you in the face, but at least we'll look a little bit less like we're enjoying it while we do.'


----------



## teqniq (Feb 18, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> *....Can you give an example of where the approach you are talking about has actually worked? Or come close to working?*


No, I can't which is why I have said it would be a very long term project indeed. Capitalism is of course the main issue here - for me at least and to change how things are done, to address inequalities how resources are used, how we treat the environment, the planet is absolutely crucial. Kinda getting off the subject of the thread here a bit i think; partly my fault.


----------



## mojo pixy (Feb 18, 2021)

two sheds said:


> I _still _don't know what hegemony means and I've looked it up several times



Antonio Gramsci had something to say on the matter, and the wikipedia entry on him gives a usefully simple outline of that.

_Capitalism, Gramsci suggested, maintained control not just through violence and political and economic coercion, but also through ideology. The bourgeoisie developed a hegemonic culture, which propagated its own values and norms so that they became the "common sense" values of all._

So if I understand the concept something like the _Protestant Work Ethic_ is a kind of hegemony. It influences all of us who grew up in it, in a thousand ways, without anyone necessarily being able to pin down exactly how it affects their world view. It's not just one thing, it's the interplay of all the mores and attitudes we are raised to consider _normal and natural._


----------



## two sheds (Feb 18, 2021)

ska invita said:


> I have had that with Dialectics - i think I've got a very rudimentary grasp of that now after many years
> 
> Hegemony is a word I don't use, so could only do so clumsily, but I think its meaning is as simple as dominating, particularly when it comes to ideas, though it can be power more generally.
> 
> ...



Ta - that makes sense, from Mirriam-Webster:



> 1 *: *preponderant influence or authority over others *: *domination battled for hegemony in Asia
> 
> 2 *: *the social, cultural, ideological, or economic influence exerted by a dominant group
> 
> _Hegemony_ comes to English from the Greek _hēgemonia_, a noun formed from the verb _hēgeisthai_ ("to lead"),



Illustrates my point a bit though - why not just use the word "dominant" as ? Everyone understands it, doesn't seem to lose any of the meaning.


----------



## ska invita (Feb 18, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Illustrates my point a bit though - why not just use the word "dominant" as ? Everyone understands it, doesn't seem to lose any of the meaning.


Yeah i know what you mean. There probably is a subtle difference. Ideological hegemony feels like it can be a bit more viral to me somehow, in the way 'common sense' is dominant without an immediately clear source of power.
Gramsci wrote in Italian, and maybe its a more commonly used word in Italy?

Knowing the origin helps remember it I think:

_Hegemony_ comes to English from the Greek _hēgemonia_, a noun formed from the verb _hēgeisthai_ ("to lead"), which also gave us the word _exegesis_ ("exposition" or "explanation"). The word was first used in English in the mid-16th century in reference to the control once wielded by the ancient Greek states, and it was reapplied in later centuries as other nations subsequently rose to power. By the 20th century, it had acquired a second sense referring to the social or cultural influence wielded by a dominant member over others of its kind, such as the domination within an industry by a business conglomerate over smaller businesses.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 18, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> ...
> In fact, isn’t the exact opposite of what you suggest likely to happen? Don’t these types of projects focussed on the capture of the state for socialist purposes tend to end up taking on the job of managing, rather than seriously challenging, capitalism, no matter how radical their original intentions may have been?
> 
> For example, phase two of the Corbyn project saw abandon the insurgent/social movement approach. Instead the focus was on the parliamentary games and positioning on Brexit.
> ...



Well we're back to the Post War Social Contract again aren't we. That came fucking close for 30 years until the media enabled Thatcher to come in with a big hammer and smash it. 

Yes Corbyn phase two was a disaster but that's because Labour didn't win the election. If they'd got in power and concentrated on the same core policies of the PWSC I think they'd have made a real difference. And again - what's the alternative? I agree you organize and do what you can locally but it's the government that makes laws and a tory government makes laws that favour capitalists and fucks over unions. And that limits peoples' abilities to organize. I remember pre-Thatcher when there were ptoprt demonstrations when local hospitals were going to be closed and they actually made the decision makers think again.


----------



## redsquirrel (Feb 18, 2021)

teqniq said:


> Sounds like what you're actually wanting is a revolution - not that I'm actually against that in principle, but realistically it's unlikely imo. Otherwise to change the way politics and governance is currently done to a socialist model is a very long-term project indeed. Moreover it would be fought tooth and nail every inch of the way by all the usual suspects.


I am I revolutionary socialist, yes I'm an anarcho-communist. But that does not mean that I (or any revolutionary socialist, the level of understanding on U75 on this has gone down and down) believe it is a revolution or nothing, I am happy to get active in measures that will increase the power of the workers here and now. But you and the other people that mention PR have shown no evidence that PR will help workers. 

You have said that capitalism is the main issue, absolutely it is. I'm asking you to outline how PR will challenge capitalism. I'm not particularly opposed to PR but the idea that it is going to really change the current politics is shown to be false by the large number of counter-examples. If we moved to PR in the UK the likelihood would be that you would not get Conservative majority governments, but instead you'd simply get neo-liberal coalition governments (Con+LD, LD+Lab, perhaps even Con+Lab). 

In regard to PR "allowing" or providing a route to the formation of a democratic socialist party, well again where has this happened? In Greece where once in government Syrzia instituted a series of attacks on the working class.


----------



## teqniq (Feb 18, 2021)

What you say is fair enough but PR may give the _opportunity_ for realistic change. I accept that the examples you've given as to why it's not likely to are presently correct but under the current system we are fucked. We won't know until or unless we try something different. Notwithstanding revolution of course, but where is the appetite for that?


----------



## redsquirrel (Feb 18, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Well we're back to the Post War Social Contract again aren't we. That came fucking close for 30 years until the media enabled Thatcher to come in with a big hammer and smash it.


The post-war social contract was an attempt to manage capitalism. It was capital and the state reacting to the power of workers. That does not mean that it did not result in real benefits for workers but it was not a move to socialism. (EDIT: Remember Keynes saw his proposals as a way to protect capitalism)

This also feeds into the reasons for the decline of the post-war social contract. This was something that happened across the western world so to attribute it to Thatcher and the media misses the underlying causes. And it is worth noting that Labour government's were involved in the initial attacks upon the model of capitalism that had existed since (or during/prior) WWII.


----------



## redsquirrel (Feb 18, 2021)

teqniq said:


> What you say is fair enough but PR may give the _opportunity_ for realistic change. I accept that the examples you've given as to why it's not likely to are presently correct but under the current system we are fucked. We won't know until or unless we try something different. Notwithstanding revolution of course, but where is the appetite for that?


Like I said I'm not opposed to PR. If there was a referendum on it tomorrow I might even get out of bed to vote for it. 

However, the idea that it is some game changer needs to be knocked on the head. Moreover, while it will likely result in no more Conservative majority governments the same applies to Labour majority governments. The biggest effect of PR in the UK (short term) would be giving the LDs the power to act as kingmakers


----------



## teqniq (Feb 18, 2021)

No I'm not thinking of it as a game changer, not at least as some kind of overnight cure-all. I hoped I'd made that clear with 'but PR may give the _opportunity_ for realistic change'.


----------



## killer b (Feb 18, 2021)

FPTP is probably the only thing keeping Labour in contention in the UK at all - across Europe, where there's mostly more proportional systems, the social democrat parties have all dropped like stones over the past 15 years.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 18, 2021)

Interesting, although greatly exaggerated by the unrealistic y axis.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 18, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Interesting, although greatly exaggerated by the unrealistic y axis.


Oh, I dunno...looks sound to me; could argue that, for parity, the positive might be shown up to 120% of index (to match the 80% on the downside) but it would have left quite a bit of white space.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 18, 2021)

No, that's basic information presentation. Going down to 80% multiplies the apparent effect by four, white space or no. The top is correct at 110% since that's the maximum of the data.


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## killer b (Feb 18, 2021)

exaggerated y-axes is the least of the problems facing the socdem parties of western europe tbh


----------



## two sheds (Feb 18, 2021)

Yes but the graph shows a huge drop to near zero until you look at the y axis label.


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## killer b (Feb 18, 2021)

I don't care.


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## two sheds (Feb 18, 2021)

You  should. When you pulled me up recently on showing a reddit post without checking all the information in it I took that as the right thing to do and I checked the information in the last reddit post I put up. You in turn should ensure that the information you're showing isn't distorted.

Eta; by just adding something like "although the y axis only goes down to 80% rather than zero"


----------



## brogdale (Feb 18, 2021)

two sheds said:


> You  should. When you pulled me up recently on showing a reddit post without checking all the information in it I took that as the right thing to do and I checked the information in the last reddit post I put up. You in turn should ensure that the information you're showing isn't distorted.


Honestly don't think things look much rosier for the Der Socs when seen in full, tbh?


----------



## killer b (Feb 18, 2021)

it isn't - you looked at the y-axis, anyone else can do that too. it's not showing numbers dropping to close to zero, it's just cutting out a lot of white space. If the numbers had been removed altogether it'd be misleading, but they haven't


----------



## two sheds (Feb 18, 2021)

That's still only going down to 80%. The variations shown in that graph look four times higher than they actually are. It's the impression it gives that is wrong.

I did wonder whether I was talking bollocks because it's a weighted share but I don't think it is bollocks. Could kabbes or 2hats comment?


----------



## brogdale (Feb 18, 2021)

two sheds said:


> That's still only going down to 80%. The variations shown in that graph look four times higher than they actually are. It's the impression it gives that is wrong.
> 
> I did wonder whether I was talking bollocks because it's a weighted share but I don't think it is bollocks. Could kabbes or 2hats comment?


With the exception of possibly needing one of those funny little squiggles at the base of the Y to indicate concertinaing ( ? ) looks OK to me.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 18, 2021)

If the y axis went down to zero the drop rather than being five units would only be around 1 and a quarter units. It gives the visual impression of a huge drop when it's only a large (25%) drop.


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## killer b (Feb 18, 2021)

how about this one that shows the net change in vote share? any better? Interesting that it shows an initial drop around 1980 before it starts going totally west in 2005


----------



## killer b (Feb 18, 2021)

two sheds said:


> If the y axis went down to zero the drop rather than being five units would only be around 1 and a quarter units. It gives the visual impression of a huge drop when it's only a large (25%) drop.


_It's only a catastrophic drop in vote share, not existential!_


----------



## two sheds (Feb 18, 2021)

Yep that looks fair enough for the net change in vote share. It would be nice if they labeled the y axis though - I presume it's percentage change.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 18, 2021)

killer b said:


> _It's only a catastrophic drop in vote share, not existential!_


_It's a 25% drop rather than showing a drop that looks like it down to zero and nobody's voting socdem any more!_


----------



## redsquirrel (Feb 18, 2021)

killer b said:


> FPTP is probably the only thing keeping Labour in contention in the UK at all - across Europe, where there's mostly more proportional systems, the social democrat parties have all dropped like stones over the past 15 years.


Absolutely agree with this


----------



## two sheds (Feb 18, 2021)

Anyway I'm waiting for kabbes or 2hats or elbows or someone to comment before saying any more in case I'm just digging a deeper hole for myself.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 18, 2021)

To be honest, the whole presentation of that graph is a bit odd because it is indexing something multiplicative when it is representing something that is actually on a scale strictly bounded between 0 and 1.  As such, it’s inherently non-symmetrical.  If 100 in 1970 represented 80% of the total vote then the downside potential is much greater than the upside and vice versa if 1970 represented 20% of the total vote.  I feel I’m missing information to make sense of the story.

you can’t get around the fact that it shows a sudden decline in support in recent years though.


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## SpookyFrank (Feb 18, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Interesting, although greatly exaggerated by the unrealistic y axis.



Init. 110% share of the vote?


----------



## redsquirrel (Feb 18, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Init. 110% share of the vote?


Relative to the share they took in 1970, e.g. SD parties might have taken 45% of the vote in 1970 and that increased to 50% in 1982-4


----------



## BobDavis (Feb 18, 2021)

Did anyone just listen to Starmer’s speech live on LBC ? The content was good I though but the delivery was shit. I know it should be about the politics & not the personality but ffs we need better than this.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Feb 18, 2021)

redsquirrel said:


> Relative to the share they took in 1970



Yeah I know. Although to me that's an index, not a 'weighted share'.


----------



## killer b (Feb 18, 2021)

this recent piece in the jacobin gives some actual figures on recent elections across europe fwiw









						Can Europe’s Center Left Survive Another Crisis?
					

The Great Recession sent Europe’s social-democratic parties into a tailspin, exposing the contradictions of their political model. Now they face the pressure of another economic downturn, without having recovered from the last one or developed a convincing new vision.




					jacobinmag.com


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## hitmouse (Feb 18, 2021)

Tbh, graphs aside I think one of the big questions is where those votes go. Like, I'm not an electoral person so this isn't really my argument to make, but if I were - and presumably the CLPs backing PR are, which is where this all started - I'd feel very differently about something that might lead to a huge fall in Labour's vote if that was going to a Podemos/Syriza thing than it was to 5 Star Movement or whatever. Although I accept that "I think Labour should endorse PR as a transitional demand leading to the destruction of the Labour Party" might be a difficult argument to sell at conference either way.


----------



## killer b (Feb 18, 2021)

It wouldn't lead to the destruction of the party, but no-one at Labour central office is looking at those sub-10% vote shares for formerly dominant socdem parties and thinking 'lets have some of that'


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 18, 2021)

killer b said:


> It wouldn't lead to the destruction of the party, but no-one at Labour central office is looking at those sub-10% vote shares for formerly dominant socdem parties and thinking 'lets have some of that'


people at john smith house or whatever it's called now will be looking at large swathes of the country thinking sod 'em


----------



## platinumsage (Feb 18, 2021)

BobDavis said:


> Did anyone just listen to Starmer’s speech live on LBC ? The content was good I though but the delivery was shit. I know it should be about the politics & not the personality but ffs we need better than this.



The content was good was it? All I heard about was a middle class savings bond which would either have to pay a derisory rate of interest or else be subsidised by favouring it over cheaper gilt borrowing. The Tories must be worried.


----------



## killer b (Feb 18, 2021)

I've only looked at the guardian's summary and can't see much to get excited about there tbh









						Keir Starmer: Labour must work with business to create fairer society
					

Labour leader calls for ‘moral crusade’ in wake of Covid pandemic to deliver social justice and equality




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## splonkydoo (Feb 18, 2021)

redsquirrel said:


> But how does PR help the LP, or left-wing parties? More importantly how does it help the workers?
> 
> Italy has a system that incorporates PR, they just had (yet another) technocratic government installed. Germany has a system that has PR, the SDP are in a coalition with the CDU and dying, and while the Greens have grown chances are they are going to go into coalition with the CDU (and FDP).
> Nether France nor Australian have FPTP (though neither has a electoral system that is proportional) and there is an absence of democratic socialist, or even social-democratic, parties there. NZ does have a PR system but again no significant social democratic party.



PR doesn't = a left wing government, and the questions of those countries you mention can hardly be limited simply to the electoral process.

What it does do, is increase the likelihood of actual socialists being elected to parliament on explicit left platforms, and being able to challenge the goverernment of the day directly on policies. It would also make - the possibility- of contesting national elections much easier, and probably more affordable. 

You know this yourself, that there is a long held view amongst revolutionary socialists of using every platform they can to engage people, including parliament. Rather than changing the political dynamic of a country which you seem to be suggesting, it simply opens up this terrain to be more effectively utilised and challenged.


----------



## redsquirrel (Feb 18, 2021)

splonkydoo said:


> PR doesn't = a left wing government, and the questions of those countries you mention can hardly be limited simply to the electoral process.


That is exactly my point.


splonkydoo said:


> What it does do, is increase the likelihood of actual socialists being elected to parliament on explicit left platforms, and being able to challenge the goverernment of the day directly on policies.


Does it? Where is the evidence of this? What does this "challenging" consist of? A couple of parliamentarians?


----------



## teqniq (Feb 18, 2021)

No mention of getting the extremely wealthy and multinational corporations to pay their fair share of tax but British recovery bonds and start-up loans for new businesses. Just  









						Keir Starmer sets out plan for British Recovery Bond to allow people to invest billions in local communities
					

Labour leader says UK cannot go ‘back to business as usual’ after Covid pandemic




					www.independent.co.uk
				




e2a this would be more like it imo:


----------



## BobDavis (Feb 18, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> The content was good was it? All I heard about was a middle class savings bond which would either have to pay a derisory rate of interest or else be subsidised by favouring it over cheaper gilt borrowing. The Tories must be worried.


Tbf Labour won’t get elected again without winning a fair few middle class Tory seats. To me the issue was the person delivering the speech but it is over 3 years until next general election. I think Starmer will still be in charge then so Labour are relying much on the Tories totally failing to deliver.


----------



## splonkydoo (Feb 18, 2021)

redsquirrel said:


> That is exactly my point.
> Does it? Where is the evidence of this? What does this "challenging" consist of? A couple of parliamentarians?



Well there are about 5 trotskyists in the Dail alone in Ireland (with 3 other quite left Independents) and whether I like them or not i would argue that they do use their platform to good effect and to good publicity. Something which is quite useful is their ability to be able to amplify voices from the outside, and to put questions of direct importance on the agenda, in the media and in parliament. I think they also can play a role in shifting larger groups, such as Sinn Fein, further left - which was in evidence during the water and household charges campaign. 

In a situation where our class is getting absolutely battered, I don't think the benefits of it are to be so easily played down right now. It offers a viable (electoral) escape route from the sinking behemoth of the Labour Party, for one. Now, whether you actually want to expend a large effort on a referendum campaign is another issue entirely and brings up its own questions, but I think dismissing the idea of PR out of hand is a bit uneven as it does offer clear advantages for smaller socialist groups and community campaigners to carve out a space.


----------



## Spandex (Feb 18, 2021)

tbf, Starmer's speech wasn't bad for a LibDem leader. I mean, he's better than Davey or Teather. Maybe not up there with that alcholoic fella or the Bosnian warlord, but if he keeps this up his party will do better than the 5% the LibDems have been stuck on in the polls for the last while.


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## FridgeMagnet (Feb 18, 2021)

Middling Cameron speech I thought.


----------



## Raheem (Feb 18, 2021)

redsquirrel said:


> That is exactly my point.
> Does it? Where is the evidence of this? What does this "challenging" consist of? A couple of parliamentarians?


Maybe it's a case of one this time, a couple next time and see how far you can get.

Podemos control a quarter of Spain's regional governments, and Melenchon got 20% in the first round of the last French presidential (compared to 24% for Macron). Nothing equivalent can happen under FPTP, because after each election you just go back to zero and start again.

UKIP were able to do it only with a lot of funding and by using the Euro elections (ie PR) as a vehicle.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 18, 2021)

_The name's Bond; Covid Bond...

_


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## JTG (Feb 18, 2021)

teqniq said:


> No mention of getting the extremely wealthy and multinational corporations to pay their fair share of tax but British recovery bonds and start-up loans for new businesses. Just
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Trickett's going to be the left candidate when Starmer gets couped by the right


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Feb 18, 2021)

splonkydoo said:


> PR doesn't = a left wing government, and the questions of those countries you mention can hardly be limited simply to the electoral process.



PR would also, at certain points at least, and depending on just how you do it, have meant that UKIP / BNP / NF would probably have got some MPs based on share of the vote...


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## Smokeandsteam (Feb 18, 2021)

It would be good, at the point, I think, to hear from some of Sir Kieth’s supporters on U75. What did they think of the speech? Has the relaunch landed do they think? Where might he take the Party next?

Until they reappear here - we miss you, why so quiet these days? - we’ll need to do with his leading ‘public intellectual’s’ analysis. Most interesting bit of this stream of _something _is Mace the ace’s assertion that anyone who doesn’t like what Kieth had to say or how he said it, is ‘way out of touch with working class people’. Unlike Paul and his friends in London presumably who have their finger on the pulse:


----------



## Raheem (Feb 18, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> PR would also, at certain points at least, and depending on just how you do it, have meant that UKIP / BNP / NF would probably have got some MPs based on share of the vote...


Yes, definitely. Although FPTP has arguably delivered what is effectively a UKIP government anyway.


----------



## ska invita (Feb 18, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


>




saddening to read that, especially the laugh or cry " All the "Starmer is Tory-lite" trolls will now find themselves way out of touch with working class people... " 

the one thing of interest in that is the mention of the massive borrow and spend Joe Biden is planning. Read a thing about this in the FT, 
*Joe Biden’s huge bet: the economic consequences of ‘acting big’*
...suggesting the world will be watching and if it works then it might be green light for a big Keynesian splurge in other countries.
If it fails it might be a nail in the coffin for the concept for a generation.
There should be a clear outcome of Biden's impact by the time of the next election.  The economic impact of Covid and the Tory response will be laid out to.

The door would be open for Starmer to follow suit but I don't think he'll dare to borrow and spend big under any circumstances. He hasnt got it in him.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 18, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> It would be good, at the point, I think, to hear from some of Sir Kieth’s supporters on U75. What did they think of the speech? Has the relaunch landed do they think? Where might he take the Party next?
> 
> Until they reappear here - we miss you, why so quiet these days? - we’ll need to do with his leading ‘public intellectual’s’ analysis. Most interesting bit of this stream of _something _is Mace the ace’s assertion that anyone who doesn’t like what Kieth had to say or how he said it, is ‘way out of touch with working class people’. Unlike Paul and his friends in London presumably who have their finger on the pulse:



You can be indignant about lots of things but this will be but the latest in the series of relaunches set to continue into the future unless SKS gets some principles which guide his policies. Indignation doesn't butter many parsnips


----------



## steeplejack (Feb 18, 2021)

The "Labour" Party currently atrophying quicker than an over-ripe apricot in the Benghazi sun.

In a couple of weeks only the stone will be left.

An outright laughing-stock and irrelevance. Which, given the desperate need for some-any- alternative to a deeply corrupt and sociopathic ultra-right government, is pretty tragic.


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## Smokeandsteam (Feb 18, 2021)

ska invita said:


> saddening to read that, especially the laugh or cry " All the "Starmer is Tory-lite" trolls will now find themselves way out of touch with working class people... "
> 
> the one thing of interest in that is the mention of the massive borrow and spend Joe Biden is planning. Read a thing about this in the FT,
> *Joe Biden’s huge bet: the economic consequences of ‘acting big’*
> ...



If you read the thread there is a link to Mason’s latest ejeculation in the New Statesman (free to read). He’s right that whoever is in power state intervention, spending and investment is inevitable in the post covid economy. The question is what type of spending, by who, aimed at who and to promote what. He’s got it wrong about Biden’s stimulus package in the sense that it’s not a warning shot to neo-liberalism about a coming ‘New Deal’ type of approach. Yes, it prioritises aid to those really struggling under the pandemic, but even the GOP have accepted that as an inevitability and a necessity to avoid a full blown crises. But, there is nothing in it to challenge the market orthodoxy, ownership, power or even seek to reduce deep inequality. It’s premised on a consumer boom in return. As such it’s about buying breathing space for neo-liberalism through the transfer of public money into its failing organs.

ETA: here is a slightly more positive take on it than mine:The Left Has Slightly Loosened the Cold Grip of Austerity Under President Biden


----------



## SpookyFrank (Feb 18, 2021)

JTG said:


> Trickett's going to be the left candidate when Starmer gets couped by the right



The right aren't happy with him either? Jesus what more could they want from him; he's anti-union, pro-police, pro-war crimes, refuses to criticise a fanatical tory government and has purged everyone vaguely left wing from the top ranls of the party by fair means or foul. Considering he got in on a 'unity' platform it's hard to see what more the labour right could have hoped for. He's even dragged Mandelson out of his crypt for fuck's sake.


----------



## belboid (Feb 18, 2021)

JTG said:


> Trickett's going to be the left candidate when Starmer gets couped by the right


he's 70 already, I doubt it will be him. I'd stick money on Zarah Sultana.


----------



## planetgeli (Feb 18, 2021)

Meaningless fucking drivel. Kieth.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Feb 18, 2021)

planetgeli said:


> Meaningless fucking drivel. Kieth.
> 
> View attachment 255000



He looks utterly horrified to be so near that tower block. That coat is dry clean only, what if a heroin addict dies on it? What then?


----------



## redsquirrel (Feb 18, 2021)

splonkydoo said:


> Well there are about 5 trotskyists in the Dail alone in Ireland (with 3 other quite left Independents) and whether I like them or not i would argue that they do use their platform to good effect and to good publicity. Something which is quite useful is their ability to be able to amplify voices from the outside, and to put questions of direct importance on the agenda, in the media and in parliament. I think they also can play a role in shifting larger groups, such as Sinn Fein, further left - which was in evidence during the water and household charges campaign.


Well your Irish example is contradictory to the position of other that have proposed PR. Here, PR is not to ensure a "progressive government" or even build a democratic socialist party (neither of which PR has done in Ireland), it is to provide a limited parliamentary representation to socialist MPs. That's a more modest aim, and while I'm not especially concerned about parliamentary politics it might incline me to vote for PR in some future referendum. But it hardly justify the claims made on this thread and elsewhere that PR is going to result in significant political change.



Raheem said:


> Podemos control a quarter of Spain's regional governments, and Melenchon got 20% in the first round of the last French presidential (compared to 24% for Macron). Nothing equivalent can happen under FPTP, because after each election you just go back to zero and start again.


The French presidential election is not a PR system, and while Melenchon made a decent run the representation for groups to the left of the PS in France is minimal. In part because the French system gives minority parties even less representation than FPTP.

But on the substantive points. (1) that PR would allow the growth of social democratic parties, well the graphs and Jacobin piece killer b posted show that to be the opposite of the case. Centre-left parties are dying faster in PR systems than under FPTP. (2) Even when social democratic parties get in power (such as Podemos or the Left Party) they are required to go into coalition with forces to their right. Making the same sort of compromises that the left of the LP does the centre/right of the party.

Fundamentally centre-left support of PR is coming from the same instinct that insisted that this time things with the LP would be different - that the right thinkers are needed to lead the workers.


----------



## ska invita (Feb 18, 2021)

planetgeli said:


> Meaningless fucking drivel. Kieth.
> 
> View attachment 255000



"Our Party and Britain are on the same page. We will work 110% to bring us out of this challenging period.
Labour are the champions of change, a true partnership of social stakeholders. Only _we_ will go the extra mile to deliver best value for tax payers.
Our results driven approach will provide the step change this country so desperately needs."



Spoiler


----------



## JTG (Feb 18, 2021)

planetgeli said:


> Meaningless fucking drivel. Kieth.
> 
> View attachment 255000


----------



## JTG (Feb 18, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> The right aren't happy with him either? Jesus what more could they want from him; he's anti-union, pro-police, pro-war crimes, refuses to criticise a fanatical tory government and has purged everyone vaguely left wing from the top ranls of the party by fair means or foul. Considering he got in on a 'unity' platform it's hard to see what more the labour right could have hoped for. He's even dragged Mandelson out of his crypt for fuck's sake.


Of course they're not, nothing will ever be enough for them unless it's Blair reanimated


----------



## JTG (Feb 18, 2021)

belboid said:


> he's 70 already, I doubt it will be him. I'd stick money on Zarah Sultana.


Issue with that is she's a woman and there's no way Labour are having a woman as leader based on every single other leadership contest ever


----------



## ska invita (Feb 18, 2021)

oh dear


----------



## oryx (Feb 18, 2021)

ska invita said:


> oh dear



He doesn't seem to grasp that they're talking about _him_, not the party.


----------



## Raheem (Feb 18, 2021)

redsquirrel said:


> The French presidential election is not a PR system, and while Melenchon made a decent run the representation for groups to the left of the PS in France is minimal. In part because the French system gives minority parties even less representation than FPTP.


I'm against FPTP, but not specifically an advocate of PR. But the point is not the what system the French Presidential election is run under, but the fact that the French system (mostly not PR) does allow space for the development of electoral politics to the left of the PS, which allowed Melenchon the platform to run a vaguely realistic campaign for the presidency. It's a bit daft to suggest it doesn't. LFI have 17 MPs. Not very close to a working majority but, all the same, virtually impossible for an equivalent British party, because they would be structurally excluded from meaningful participation.


----------



## Wilf (Feb 18, 2021)

ska invita said:


> oh dear



This is like one of those improv games where the audience shouts out things for them to portray: '_What's that, dignified, yes? Do dignified... and what was that? Patriotic? Okay do dignified and patriotic. Sorry, what was that other one, utterly defeated? Okay , kieth, do dignified, patriotic and utterly defeated'._


----------



## two sheds (Feb 18, 2021)

redsquirrel said:


> The post-war social contract was an attempt to manage capitalism. It was capital and the state reacting to the power of workers. That does not mean that it did not result in real benefits for workers but it was not a move to socialism. (EDIT: Remember Keynes saw his proposals as a way to protect capitalism)



My response was in reply to:


> Can you give an example of where the approach you are talking about has actually worked? Or come close to working?



I’m less concerned on what it’s called than the conditions that the mass of people lived under. And nationalized industries leading to full employment, building of the NHS, welfare state, free education, council house building and low rents seem fairly socialist results to me. All while paying off the huge debts we’d built up since WWII. And it beats the shit out of what we (and particularly young people) are faced with today.



> This also feeds into the reasons for the decline of the post-war social contract. This was something that happened across the western world so to attribute it to Thatcher and the media misses the underlying causes. And it is worth noting that Labour government's were involved in the initial attacks upon the model of capitalism that had existed since (or during/prior) WWII.



You may be right – I did see an article with a lot of graphs showing that it all started going to shit worldwide in (I think) 1977, which I now can’t find. However, I’d thought Thatcher and Reagan(omics) initiated neoliberal policies which then spread to the rest of the world.

And I was anyway referring to how it happened within the UK: the media pushing the stories of strikes by greedy unions leading to rubbish piling up in the streets, bodies left unburied and 3 million days lost through strikes. In fact the unions were just trying to catch up with the high inflation of the 70s – which the media then used to set them against the rest of the country who weren’t able to fight for increased wages. Along the lines of: https://www.redpepper.org.uk/the-myth-of-the-1970s/

It was Thatcher that did the major damage in the UK cheered on by the media, with the papers suddenly going quiet on 3*300 odd days lost through 3 million unemployed, with that being used to force down wages while productivity kept rising.


----------



## Wilf (Feb 18, 2021)

planetgeli said:


> Meaningless fucking drivel. Kieth.
> 
> View attachment 255000


I wonder if any of the clowns who came up with this ever said it out loud.  Doesn't flow, doesn't scan, just awful.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 18, 2021)

They were probably too busy saying things like "put more about patriotism and flags in"


----------



## Humberto (Feb 19, 2021)

Reasonable 'socialism is pragmatism' angle, from the snippets I've seen.


----------



## Humberto (Feb 19, 2021)

New Labour had 'an end to boom and bust', of course they failed to answer back when their corporate sinecures were threatened.


----------



## Raheem (Feb 19, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> He looks utterly horrified to be so near that tower block. That coat is dry clean only, what if a heroin addict dies on it? What then?


Reckon he's not even in front of a tower block. They tricked him with Photoshop.


----------



## redsquirrel (Feb 19, 2021)

Raheem said:


> I'm against FPTP, but not specifically an advocate of PR. But the point is not the what system the French Presidential election is run under, but the fact that the French system (mostly not PR) does allow space for the development of electoral politics to the left of the PS, which allowed Melenchon the platform to run a vaguely realistic campaign for the presidency. It's a bit daft to suggest it doesn't. LFI have 17 MPs. Not very close to a working majority but, all the same, virtually impossible for an equivalent British party, because they would be structurally excluded from meaningful participation.


Such a comparison is meaningless because parties under FPTP are different from those under PR (or two-runs voting). The old cliche about FPTP having the coalitions form before elections is accurate here. There may not be 17 MPs from the "Democratic Socialist Party" but there are 32 LP MPs that are part of the campaign group. 

Again the Jacobin article has the numbers. Radical left parties (Jacobin's term but I will use it) have a presence under PR (or non-FPTP) systems, indeed in in some cases are now polling on the same sort of level as centre-left parties. However, any level of growth has been limited, in Germany, the Netherlands and Sweden the vote for the radical left has stagnated or slightly decreased over the last decade. In Greece Syriza has a sizeable vote, but has given up any pretence to being a radical left party.  In France the radical left did have some growth between 2012 and 2017, and Mélenchon is still ahead of the PS in presidential polling. But both the PS and LFI are utterly marginalised, with the politics of France now being a contest between technocratic liberalism and the populist radical right. In Italy there is no significant representation for any radical left party, and similarly the political contest is between liberalism and populism. 

Podemos are usually held up as the example of the type of party that PR allows. And yes you do have a radical left party in government, but since there initial burst they have been gradually losing vote share (to the centre-left). Portugal also has radical left parties in government, but there has been no growth in support, as in Spain the biggest beneficiary of the coalition of the centre-left with the radical left has been the centre. And in both Iberian countries you have a radical left element within the centre-left coalition government, not especially dissimilar to the situation within the LP. 

And the radical left in Spain and Portugal have to answer the same question that pro-Corbyn LP member never did 



			
				Stathis Kouvelakis said:
			
		

> It’s a fundamental mistake for formations of the radical left to agree to a line that is merely complementary to social democracy. We don’t need radical-left parties to make deals with social democracy to limit foreclosures, raise the minimum wage by €50, cancel some redundancies in the public sector, and so on. If we really think that’s the best we can get, we should operate within the framework of social democracy, and try to obtain some concrete improvements. But for a political current that supposedly has an alternative vision for society, accepting this as the horizon can amount to giving up on that vision.


"s_This is a serious point that should not be dismissed as sectarian or “ultraleft.” Even if they reject such arguments, the radical-left groups need to deliver something tangible from the experience of supporting a government and then hold on to their electoral base, with the latter obviously dependent on the former. If they suffer a wipeout or a sharp decline, they won’t be any use as a partner, no matter how accommodating they may be.

If there’s no question of a radical turn in economic policy, the ability to deliver small-scale reforms hinges on the existence of favorable conditions to create some fiscal breathing room. The post-pandemic downturn has already caused serious tensions between the government partners in Portugal and Spain. The European Commission has added to the pressure by attaching unpopular conditions to coronavirus aid in a bid to circumvent electoral democracy_."


----------



## redsquirrel (Feb 19, 2021)

two sheds said:


> I’m less concerned on what it’s called than the conditions that the mass of people lived under. And nationalized industries leading to full employment, building of the NHS, welfare state, free education, council house building and low rents seem fairly socialist results to me. All while paying off the huge debts we’d built up since WWII. And it beats the shit out of what we (and particularly young people) are faced with today.


And yet you continue to refuse to question _why_ those conditions came about. As I've pointed out to you before the Keynesian model existed across countries and under both centre-right and centre-left governments.  Was the situation for workers better in many ways? Of course it was, that is not a point that is being contested. But to call it socialist is not just a mistake in terminology it shows a misunderstanding of what was actually happening.



two sheds said:


> You may be right – I did see an article with a lot of graphs showing that it all started going to shit worldwide in (I think) 1977, which I now can’t find. However, I’d thought Thatcher and Reagan(omics) initiated neoliberal policies which then spread to the rest of the world.


Callaghan was the first monetarist PM in the UK. It was under a Labour government that _In Place of Strife_ written. Carter proceeded Reagan in making reduction of the debt a key policy.
And look at things outside the US/UK. What measures did the Mitterand take during his period in office? Who introduced "mini-jobs" to Germany? What were the policies of the Craxi government? When did privatisations really start in Australia?

By focussing on the actions of Thatcher and Reagan (or Attlee) you are missing _why_ there a move to neo-liberalism across north american, western europe and Aus/NZ and (again) under both centre-left and centre-right governments. Because the "wrong" parties were elected? Because of the media? Unions had had plenty of hostile rightwing press before. Was the media more pro-union during the earlier decades of the 20th century? I'll admit I've not done/seen a systematic comparison but I doubt it. So why did was it possible for the state and capital to accede to labours demands in 45 that it was not in 75?


----------



## ska invita (Feb 19, 2021)

Keeping Universal Credit up the extra £20 is of course a bare minimum, and we know Labour have said it should stay at that rate, so no new announcement there.

The main announcement was this bond thing. I don't even know what it means, and I doubt many who aren't stock brokers do either. Is it like an ISA? Aren't ISA's a bond? Don't they alreayd exist?

Its the kind of thing you implement once in power and maybe some shrewd people with enough money find out about and do - it is not an election winning incentive to the regular public. Its something you might get told about whilst at the bank and say "no thank you" to. Starmer even looks like a bank manager.

I've only come across Sienna Rodgers this year for the first time as am not long on Twitter and she seems to have the labour party gossip first. She's written a surprisingly positive take on the speech here. On the bonds she says:
_" [this bond crap] is based on the idea that Covid savings do not necessarily translate into a spending spree, as predicted by Sunak, and so the bonds could be used to fund the post-Covid recovery. They could ensure that not only key workers but also those who saved during the pandemic have a reason to back Labour, as they see returns on their investments."_

So those people who have money to invest will vote Labour because they've reinvented ISAs? Unbelievably narrow and shit.
But the bit that stands out to me is "the bonds could be used to fund the post-Covid recovery". As said in posts above, Biden is about to open the print-money floodgates. Even parts of the conservative financial orthodoxy have been calling for printing money, as 1. theres little fear of inflation due to other economic factors, and 2. a little bit of inflation would help bring the Debt down.

An open door for a print-and-spend Labour party to rebuild Britain in the Spirit of 45.
Whats the Starmerite vision to the nation: lets effectively crowdfund it from the public with Bonds.
I reckon the Tories are going to win the next election and they're going to at least talk up splashing the cash to do it. Starmer is going to be outmaneouvered from the left by the Tories . My brain is melting.


----------



## strung out (Feb 19, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Keeping Universal Credit up the extra £20 is of course a bare minimum, and we know Labour have said it should stay at that rate, so no new announcement there.
> 
> The main announcement was this bond thing. I don't even know what it means, and I doubt many who aren't stock brokers do either. Is it like an ISA? Aren't ISA's a bond? Don't they alreayd exist?
> 
> ...


A bond is a promise to repay your money at a fixed future date with an expected return. Essentially you give the government your savings, which the government can use to 'rebuild post-Covid Britain' (or whatever else they've told you it'll be spent on), and the government promises to repay your investment with 3% interest (or whatever percentage is agreed) when the bonds mature.

You can hold some types of bond in an ISA if you want but you don't have to. Anything held outside of an ISA must have tax paid on it.

Government bonds are among the safest there are, because they're guaranteed, unlike stocks and shares, or corporate bonds, where there is the chance your investment goes down instead of up.

It's a shit promise though, because without Labour being in government until 2024 at the earliest, it'll never happen. Additionally, it only helps those with savings to spare, rather than those who are unemployed or have had to blast through their savings to survive Covid.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 19, 2021)

strung out said:


> A bond is a promise to repay your money at a fixed future date with an expected return. Essentially you give the government your savings, which the government can use to 'rebuild post-Covid Britain' (or whatever else they've told you it'll be spent on), and the government promises to repay your investment with 3% interest (or whatever percentage is agreed) when the bonds mature.
> 
> You can hold some types of bond in an ISA if you want but you don't have to. Anything held outside of an ISA must have tax paid on it.
> 
> ...


Essentially it looks like they're proposing to re-brand a process that is an on-going and normal way for states to raise finance.
Nothing of any substance and couched in the (flag-waving) 'war-spirit' shite that Starmer appears to have alighted on.


----------



## ska invita (Feb 19, 2021)

i'm sure there is an audience for these bonds, though i cant see who would vote for it or be excited by the prospect

but the scale of the audience is decidedly going to be made up predominantly of the middle class and up


Source: Savings statistics: Average savings in the UK | 2020 | Finder UK



somewhere around half of people in the UK have no money spare to save, in bonds or elsewhere
these should be core labour voters
...ETA: and might be insulted and alienated by the emphasis of this as an issue - I know i am


----------



## NoXion (Feb 19, 2021)

Winot said:


> She was rubbish on the Today program. *She sounds too much like a politician.* She needs to plainly set out why the Tories are bad, what Labour is going to do differently, and why that will be better for the ordinary voter. Using phrases like “Tory ideology” *makes her sound like she is a poster on the politics forum here*.



Those two statements are in direct contradiction to each other.


----------



## Serge Forward (Feb 19, 2021)

Not really, most on the politics forum act like gobby wee shites, while most politicians act like cunts.


----------



## Raheem (Feb 19, 2021)

redsquirrel said:


> Such a comparison is meaningless because parties under FPTP are different from those under PR (or two-runs voting). The old cliche about FPTP having the coalitions form before elections is accurate here. There may not be 17 MPs from the "Democratic Socialist Party" but there are 32 LP MPs that are part of the campaign group.


So in support of your claim that the UK system allows greater space for political parties to the left of Labour compared to their equivalents under other systems in Europe you're offering the example of the Labour Campaign Group. Call me smug if you like, but who do you think you're kidding?


----------



## lazythursday (Feb 19, 2021)

It seems to me that while there may be no more chance of achieving socialism under PR than under FPTP, it does make a hard right government _less_ likely. And where we are right now that seems like a decent enough win.


----------



## JTG (Feb 19, 2021)

I mean, if Labour want to reintroduce policies from the 1940s to help rebuild Britain, there's always building 100s of thousands of council houses, fully nationalised health service/railways/energy etc etc. It doesn't have to be just "give us your savings at a crappy rate of interest and we'll freeze Universal Credit"


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Feb 19, 2021)

planetgeli said:


> Meaningless fucking drivel. Kieth.
> 
> View attachment 255000



Also even internally bad as a strategy of triangulation. How to win over conservative voters? Why, promise them the exact opposite of conservativism: 'a future that is going to look utterly unlike the past'.


----------



## agricola (Feb 19, 2021)

JTG said:


> I mean, if Labour want to reintroduce policies from the 1940s to help rebuild Britain, there's always building 100s of thousands of council houses, fully nationalised health service/railways/energy etc etc. It doesn't have to be just "give us your savings at a crappy rate of interest and we'll freeze Universal Credit"



Indeed.  The railways should be a particularly easy one as well, given how the government have effectively nationalised them already and will no doubt force itself into some ludicrous, financially wasteful and politically damaging act to try and re-privatise them (as they did when East Coast was killed off).


----------



## two sheds (Feb 19, 2021)

Covid gives a real opportunity to pick stuff up cheap you'd think, too.


----------



## ska invita (Feb 19, 2021)

this could be significant - Starmer got in on suspect money. C&P as business insider is a hard to read website
who knows, maybe this is all just easily batted away
theyve got some interesting legal proceedings coming up havent they
they could do with a good lawyer
also remember this?








						Keir Starmer refuses to outline all donors funding his Labour leadership bid
					

Sir Keir and rival Rebecca Long-Bailey faced a grilling this evening.




					metro.co.uk
				




--------------------------------------








						A Labour Party group with links to Keir Starmer is being investigated for failing to declare financial backers
					

EXCLUSIVE: Labour Together is under investigation by the Electoral Commission after failing to declare over £800,000 worth of donations in time.




					www.businessinsider.com
				





EXCLUSIVE: Labour Together is under investigation by the Electoral Commission for alleged breaches of electoral law.
The group allegedly failed to declare hundreds of thousands of pounds of donations within the time required by law.
The group is led by senior figures in Keir Starmer's Labour party, including the Shadow Foreign Secretary Lisa Nandy.
Its former managing director is now Starmer's chief of staff.

An influential Labour Party group with close links to Keir Starmer is under investigation by the UK's Electoral Commission after allegedly failing to declare over £800,000 in donations within the time required under law, Insider can reveal.

The investigation into Labour Together, which counts among its current directors' the Shadow Foreign Secretary Lisa Nandy MP and Shadow Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government Steve Reed MP, was opened in December 2020.

The Electoral Commission, which regulates political financing in the United Kingdom, is investigating multiple potential breaches of UK electoral law which requires donations to be reported to the Electoral Commission within 30 days of the donation being accepted.

An analysis of the figures published by the Electoral Commission shows only a small minority of donations received by Labour Together - £165,000 of the £970,492 donated - had been declared within the 30 day period, from its first donation in October 2015 to its most recent donation in January 2021

The Electoral Commission is also investigating a potential failure to register a responsible person within 30 days of accepting a reportable donation.
Both of these potential failures would be breaches of the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000.

Figures published on the Electoral Commission website in February 2021 show 10 donations for a total of £298,992. Only one of these donations, worth £50,000, is shown to have been received by Labour Together within 30 days of it being reported. The rest range from between June 2017 and April 2019.
Figures published by the Electoral Commission in December 2020 show 19 donations for a total of £465,500. None of these donations appear to have been received in the 30 days prior to their reported date of 10th December 2020. They range from June 2018 to September 2020.


The December 2020 report was the first report of donations made by Labour Together since July 2018. A November 2017 report of donations included sums given in June and August 2017 totalling £46,000, while a £45,000 donation in June 2016 was not reported until August 2016.

Labour Together's most significant donor to date is Martin Taylor, who was revealed in 2015 to be a Mayfair hedge fund manager having then given £600,000 to the party under the leadership of Ed Miliband. Taylor has given the group over £700,000. £143,992 of Taylor's donations were reported as being "non-cash".

Another significant donor is the businessman Sir Trevor Chinn, who also donated £50,000 to Keir Starmer's leadership campaign in 2020.
Chinn serves as the fourth director of Labour Together along with the Labour MP Jon Cruddas. Chinn has given the group £225,500.

There is no suggestion of wrongdoing by any of the donors.

*'The blueprint for Starmerism'*

Labour Together has become a highly influential group under Starmer's leadership of the party.

A former managing director of Labour Together is Morgan McSweeney, who is now Sir Keir Starmer's chief of staff. Companies House records for the company behind Labour Together show McSweeney was secretary from July 2017 to April 2020, when Starmer became leader of the Labour Party.
The group also conducted a high-profile review into the party's performance in the 2019 general election was published in June 2020 which was described by the New Statesman as "a blueprint for Starmerism".


Susan Hawley, Executive Director of Spotlight on Corruption, told Insider: "Full and timely transparency in electoral funding and donations by all parties is critical to trust in elections and in politicians.

"Pending the Commission's outcome, these kinds of investigations should be a wake-up call to all parties to work together to strengthen the Electoral Commission's mandate and powers, and to clean up political finance."

An Electoral Commission spokesperson told Insider: "The donations to Labour Together published this week were reported to us as part of an on-going investigation into the members association.

"Labour Together is currently under investigation for potentially failing to deliver donations reports within 30 days of accepting reportable donations, and for potentially failing to register a responsible person within 30 days of accepting a reportable donation. The outcome of the investigation will be published on our website when it has concluded."


*Hannah O'Rourke, Acting Director of Labour Together said in a statement to Insider: "We are aware of an administrative oversight around donations to Labour Together. This was entirely unintentional, and we contacted the Electoral Commission to make them aware of this as soon as we became aware of the error. *

"We are now fully transparent and compliant with regards to our donations, and are cooperating fully with the Electoral Commission to assist them in their ongoing inquiry. This was an oversight on our part and we proactively approached the commission to put it right. We are in the process of working with them to ensure this does not happen again."


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Feb 19, 2021)

oops...


----------



## ska invita (Feb 19, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> oops...


"oops" is probably a good enough defence on this kind of thing, still fingers crossed.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Feb 19, 2021)

this is the face of someone having an existential crisis, isn't it?


----------



## Raheem (Feb 19, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> this is the face of someone having an existential crisis, isn't it?


Nice euphemism for a discreet crap.


----------



## killer b (Feb 21, 2021)

This clip from Ridge this morning is incredible


----------



## killer b (Feb 21, 2021)

This must be that 'capturing the public mood' Will Hutton is on about in the graun


----------



## Spandex (Feb 21, 2021)

killer b said:


> This clip from Ridge this morning is incredible



That backbench Tory MP they've wheeled out to defend Hancock looks just like Kieth Starmer. Even has a similar name.


----------



## ska invita (Feb 21, 2021)

killer b said:


> This clip from Ridge this morning is incredible




wow. of course if you dont agree with Starmer you are "way out of touch with working class people"


----------



## kabbes (Feb 21, 2021)

Calling for the reisgnation of a disgraced minister?  Don't be silly, that's not what opposition leaders are for.


----------



## ska invita (Feb 21, 2021)

even if you dont call for resignation you say there needs to be a through inquiry and if corruption is found then should be prosecuted
no one is above the law etc
shittest director of prosecutions evah


----------



## SpookyFrank (Feb 21, 2021)

ska invita said:


> even if you dont call for resignation you say there needs to be a through inquiry and if corruption is found then should be prosecuted
> no one is above the law etc
> shittest director of prosecutions evah



He doesn't give a fuck about establishment crimes, never has.


----------



## Raheem (Feb 21, 2021)

Wonder if Hancock will resign we'll end up with a bizarre PMQs with Starmer attacking Johnson for his lack of support for Hancock.


----------



## ska invita (Feb 21, 2021)

Where we are...


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 21, 2021)

He’s the only character in the new spitting image that makes me chuckle. Not sure that’s a compliment


----------



## Chilli.s (Feb 21, 2021)

He's gonna fuck the labour party better than any anti semitism row ever did.


----------



## editor (Feb 21, 2021)

Fucking USELESS cunt. 



> Sir Keir Starmer has said he doesn’t want to call for Matt Hancock’s resignation after a court ruled he “acted unlawfully” when his department did not reveal details of contracts it had signed during the pandemic.
> 
> Speaking to Sophy Ridge on Sunday the Labour leader said he believes the health secretary to be wrong about the contracts, but at this stage of the pandemic he wants “all government ministers working really hard to get us through this”.
> 
> ...


----------



## BobDavis (Feb 21, 2021)

Hancock has already dismissed this as lives being more important than money. That simple statement is hard to argue with. I don’t think people will be too worried right now. I think they are more worried about their situations financial & otherwise as regards Covid to pay too much attention to this. However the self entitled sleaze & corruption of this extremist band of chancers will not end with Covid & one would hope that Covid is done towards the end of this year. After that will be time imo to start to highlight different ie non Covid related examples of sleaze & cronyism that will inevitably occur & that might hit home among the public.

Likewise with brexit the problems with import & export can still be dismissed as teething troubles & nobody is going on holiday in Europe right now either but that will change with time. Going from single market customs union to customs clearance erects permanent barriers & a whole layer of extra costs to trade with the EU which people will come to understand in time.

I know it will be unpopular on here but the way forward for Labour to actually get into power will for it to go more centrist. I have always liked Corbyn & was fully on board with him but in the end it didn’t work unfortunately. The ‘97 victory was quite carefully engineered & came about in part because voters were pissed off with Tory sleaze. So one way or the other history needs to repeat itself. The next general election is Labour’s to lose. To win or even to be part of a “progressive” coalition they need to do more than win back lost Labour seats they need to win Tory seats.


----------



## teqniq (Feb 21, 2021)

'It's not what the public would want'.Why does he presume to think he knows what the public wants?


----------



## Chilli.s (Feb 21, 2021)

BobDavis said:


> Hancock has already dismissed this as lives being more important than money. That simple statement is hard to argue with.


Easy to argue with. Sounds good but doesn't stack up. Many firms with experience in manufacturing PPE and similar products were all set to start but instead of financing them the money was given to chancers.


----------



## ska invita (Feb 21, 2021)

teqniq said:


> 'It's not what the public would want'.Why does he presume to think he knows what the public wants?


We Want Bonds! We Want Bonds!
Leave The Tories Alone! They're Trying Really Hard!


----------



## BobDavis (Feb 21, 2021)

Chilli.s said:


> Easy to argue with. Sounds good but doesn't stack up. Many firms with experience in manufacturing PPE and similar products were all set to start but instead of financing them the money was given to chancers.


Yes. Point I was making was does the general public care at this moment in time ? The suggestions of cronyism has been in the news for quite a while. The cronyism won’t end with Covid. Once Covid is done with that will be time for Labour to go on the offensive. There will still be 3 years until next election.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 21, 2021)

BobDavis said:


> I know it will be unpopular on here but the way forward for Labour to actually get into power will for it to go more centrist. I have always liked Corbyn & was fully on board with him but in the end it didn’t work unfortunately. The ‘97 victory was quite carefully engineered & came about in part because voters were pissed off with Tory sleaze. So one way or the other history needs to repeat itself. The next general election is Labour’s to lose. To win or even to be part of a “progressive” coalition they need to do more than win back lost Labour seats they need to win Tory seats.



Not convinced this is true - the Mail and the Sun and Express and Telegraph and ... and ... are likely to swing behind the tories whatever labour does and start hunting out photographs of Starmer eating bacon sarnies.


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## teqniq (Feb 21, 2021)

£6 donated so far:









						Help buy a spine for Keir Starmer
					

Please help Keir stand up to the Tories by contributing towards the cost of buying him a spine.




					www.crowdfunder.co.uk
				




Small Print: All money donated will actually go to the Trusell Trust


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 21, 2021)

BobDavis said:


> Hancock has already dismissed this as lives being more important than money. That simple statement is hard to argue with. I don’t think people will be too worried right now. I think they are more worried about their situations financial & otherwise as regards Covid to pay too much attention to this. However the self entitled sleaze & corruption of this extremist band of chancers will not end with Covid & one would hope that Covid is done towards the end of this year. After that will be time imo to start to highlight different ie non Covid related examples of sleaze & cronyism that will inevitably occur & that might hit home among the public.
> 
> Likewise with brexit the problems with import & export can still be dismissed as teething troubles & nobody is going on holiday in Europe right now either but that will change with time. Going from single market customs union to customs clearance erects permanent barriers & a whole layer of extra costs to trade with the EU which people will come to understand in time.
> 
> I know it will be unpopular on here but the way forward for Labour to actually get into power will for it to go more centrist. I have always liked Corbyn & was fully on board with him but in the end it didn’t work unfortunately. The ‘97 victory was quite carefully engineered & came about in part because voters were pissed off with Tory sleaze. So one way or the other history needs to repeat itself. The next general election is Labour’s to lose. To win or even to be part of a “progressive” coalition they need to do more than win back lost Labour seats they need to win Tory seats.



Your first two observations Bob are about tactics rather than principles. I have some sympathy for the view that calling for Hancocks resignation could be perceived by some as taking out a key figure in fighting covid . More to the point it would just be hot air as Hancock isn't going anywhere and therefore it would fail.

Your second point about Labour needing to go more centrist is actually about principle ie what does the Labour Party stand for. Of course, you could be suggesting that Labour as a tactic goes more centrist and then if it ever achieved office reverted to type but I doubt you meant that.  I'm not sure what Labour would look like if it went more centrist , although it could be argued that any clairty about what they stand for would be welcome. Could you give some examples of what you mean?

Finally, how does Labour going more centrist actually tackle the situation of people being more worried about their situations financial and otherwise?


----------



## Knotted (Feb 21, 2021)

It's basics isn't it? They need to galvanise their support, extend their support and disrupt their opponents. Refusing to do the first and last of these is actually a weirdly bold strategy. Eg. Blair in opposition skimped on galvanising his support base (which was much more solid then), but certainly didn't refuse to attack the government. I've never seen anything like it. Usually it's not just about winning over Tories but also getting Tories to stay at home and getting your vote out. Starmer is dividing his own side and allowing the Tories to spin their devastating failures over Covid just to avoid potentially alienating floating voters.

Starmer is a relatively popular Labour leader but it's not translating into winning polls because the Tories are still extremely popular and they have a clear opposition free run at governing. It would be a freak of nature to get into government by hoping a relatively disciplined Tory Party will fall apart and then flying under the radar into government.


----------



## Santino (Feb 21, 2021)

Knotted said:


> Starmer is a relatively popular Labour leader


Relative to whom? 

Not even Labour voters like him. He's probably slightly more popular among Tory voters who will never vote Labour.


----------



## Knotted (Feb 21, 2021)

Santino said:


> Relative to whom?
> 
> Not even Labour voters like him. He's probably slightly more popular among Tory voters who will never vote Labour.



Relative to Corbyn, Milliband or Brown.


----------



## Santino (Feb 21, 2021)

If this is popular, I'd hate to see unpopular.


----------



## Knotted (Feb 21, 2021)

Well you've seen it. Corbyn, Milliband and Brown.

Starmer's not popular around here or with me. I absolutely hate him. But I can't deny that he personally polls reasonably well.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Feb 21, 2021)

Starmer wants all schools reopened fully on the 8th. Because all the unions say 'please don't reopen schools' and Starmer has to do the opposite of what the unions say so that the tory press will allow him to drag the corpse of his leadership on for another week or two.


----------



## BobDavis (Feb 21, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Your second point about Labour needing to go more centrist is actually about principle ie what does the Labour Party stand for. Of course, you could be suggesting that Labour as a tactic goes more centrist and then if it ever achieved office reverted to type but I doubt you meant that.  I'm not sure what Labour would look like if it went more centrist , although it could be argued that any clairty about what they stand for would be welcome. Could you give some examples of what you mean?
> 
> Finally, how does Labour going more centrist actually tackle the situation of people being more worried about their situations financial and otherwise?


By more centrist ie centre left to the right of how people perceived Corbyn. Corbyn imo has never been hard left particularly but that was how he was perceived & built up by the right wing media with their hypocritical campaign to discredit him. Loads of Labour voters said they would not vote for Corbyn & to win Labour needs Tory voters to vote for them as well. Blair actually got the right wing media to back Labour in the ‘97 election I seem to recall ?

Those running the brexit campaign & the last Tory election campaign used every trick there was to engineer their victories & Labour needs to match that to win next time. Personally I think any government now should prioritise the building of council houses on almost the scale of the 1950s & 60s. Getting those that need it securely & affordably housed in good quality housing I would have thought is fundamental to solving the social problems we have in this country.

Whatever Labour can achieve in power first they need to get into power & to achieve that they need to match & better the campaigning skills of the Tory machine. That’s all I was really saying. Does anybody really want mass poverty in this country? I don’t think so. I doubt the Tories can fix it so Labour need to prove they can.


----------



## JTG (Feb 21, 2021)

Plaid Cymru have smelled blood in the water and gone in for the kill


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 21, 2021)

BobDavis said:


> By more centrist ie centre left to the right of how people perceived Corbyn. Corbyn imo has never been hard left particularly but that was how he was perceived & built up by the right wing media with their hypocritical campaign to discredit him. Loads of Labour voters said they would not vote for Corbyn & to win Labour needs Tory voters to vote for them as well. Blair actually got the right wing media to back Labour in the ‘97 election I seem to recall ?
> 
> Those running the brexit campaign & the last Tory election campaign used every trick there was to engineer their victories & Labour needs to match that to win next time. Personally I think any government now should prioritise the building of council houses on almost the scale of the 1950s & 60s. Getting those that need it securely & affordably housed in good quality housing I would have thought is fundamental to solving the social problems we have in this country.
> 
> Whatever Labour can achieve in power first they need to get into power & to achieve that they need to match & better the campaigning skills of the Tory machine. That’s all I was really saying. Does anybody really want mass poverty in this country? I don’t think so. I doubt the Tories can fix it so Labour need to prove they can.


you clearly haven't noticed the demolition of housing that's been going on round eg Liverpool and the demolition of council estates in London and their replacement with yuppie flats. What's needed isn't a simplistic more council housing but a change in the argument along the lines of what éirígí are arguing for in Ireland, universal public housing UP Housing — Éirígí For A New Republic

We cannot leave the private rented sector or council housing as they are, a new solution is required


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Feb 21, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Starmer wants all schools reopened fully on the 8th. Because all the unions say 'please don't reopen schools' and Starmer has to do the opposite of what the unions say so that the tory press will allow him to drag the corpse of his leadership on for another week or two.



Why isn’t he calling for every school to be a vaccination centre with every kid, parent and teacher jabbed as part of a phased reopening? In fact, where is the demand for a key worker vaccination programme? Those in the workplace - regardless of age - need the vaccine more than work at home types do regardless of age. Now the high risk groups are being done continuing on age grounds makes no sense. Surely even Starmer and his advisors can see how popular that call would be (as well as being the right thing to do and in line with the NEU position)


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 21, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Why isn’t he calling for every school to be a vaccination centre with every kid, parent and teacher jabbed as part of a phased reopening? In fact, where is the demand for a key worker vaccination programme? Those in the workplace - regardless of age - need the vaccine more then work at home types do regardless of age. Surely even Starmer and his advisors can see how popular that call would be (as well as being the right thing to do)


Right. Any call he makes now will not be seen as desperately trying to regain the initiative.


----------



## BobDavis (Feb 21, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> you clearly haven't noticed the demolition of housing that's been going on round eg Liverpool and the demolition of council estates in London and their replacement with yuppie flats. What's needed isn't a simplistic more council housing but a change in the argument along the lines of what éirígí are arguing for in Ireland, universal public housing UP Housing — Éirígí For A New Republic
> 
> We cannot leave the private rented sector or council housing as they are, a new solution is required


I have no idea of the details. I don’t go to Liverpool or even London these days. I see nothing wrong though with affordable rented housing built & provided by the state to those that need it. You can call it whatever you like provided the state provide it & run it. It has been done before when there was housing need & it can be done again.

I read your link & also A Beginners Guide to UP Housing. It is a means of the state providing affordable secure rented housing. Which is what council housing was in the 50-60s-70s & could be again whatever name you give it.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Feb 21, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Why isn’t he calling for every school to be a vaccination centre with every kid, parent and teacher jabbed as part of a phased reopening? In fact, where is the demand for a key worker vaccination programme? Those in the workplace - regardless of age - need the vaccine more than work at home types do regardless of age. Now the high risk groups are being done continuing on age grounds makes no sense. Surely even Starmer and his advisors can see how popular that call would be (as well as being the right thing to do and in line with the NEU position)



Not sure yer man knows what a 'worker' is tbh.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Feb 21, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Right. Any call he makes now will not be seen as desperately trying to regain the initiative.



The  should be for sir Kieth as he dug that particular hole all by himself. He’s had months to get a vaguely coherent line.

Outmanoeuvred by Johnston...that takes some doing.


----------



## Orang Utan (Feb 21, 2021)

Why do people keep calling Starmer Keith? Are they just illiterate or not paying attention to Autocorrect?


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 21, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> The  should be for sir Kieth as he dug that particular hole all by himself. He’s had months to get a vaguely coherent line.
> 
> Outmanoeuvred by Johnston...that takes some doing.


he's a great disappointment


----------



## ddraig (Feb 21, 2021)

e2a to JTG 
Leanne has always been pro decriminalisation, they used to work in probation and are more realistic than most politicians imo/e


----------



## mojo pixy (Feb 21, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> Why do people keep calling Starmer Keith? Are they just illiterate or not paying attention to Autocorrect?



Quite right. It's Kieth.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Feb 21, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> The  should be for sir Kieth as he dug that particular hole all by himself. He’s had months to get a vaguely coherent line.
> 
> Outmanoeuvred by Johnston...that takes some doing.



Starmer could be outmaneuvered by a concrete bollard.


----------



## vanya (Feb 21, 2021)

Burying Corbynism
					

Keir Starmer's economy speech  then. It's fair to say it wasn't overwhelming, and few but the usual loyalists gave it a buoyant reception....




					averypublicsociologist.blogspot.com
				






> Keir Starmer's economy speech then. It's fair to say it wasn't overwhelming, and few but the usual loyalists gave it a buoyant reception. The left, as you might have guessed, weren't full of praise. But neither were the centrist hacks. On this James Ball offered an infrequent insight, noting Dear Keir was acting as if he was in government not opposition, and this is fatal. A rare confluence of opinion between him and the left he affects to despise.
> 
> I'm not going to go through all the criticisms as they're ten-a-penny on Twitter. There are three aspects worth noting. The first was the eye-catching original policy (albeit half-inched from Thatcherite think tank, the Centre for Policy Studies). I.e. The Covid recovery bonds. The plan proposes to raise billions from voluntary subscriptions to go into community investment. In practice, one would assume rebuilding local infrastructure and public services gutted by Tory cuts is where this money is destined. The bonds themselves would be long maturing, and are designed to soak up the savings large numbers of (mainly middle class) people have built up over the course of the pandemic.
> 
> ...


----------



## ska invita (Feb 21, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Starmer could be outmaneuvered by a concrete bollard.


----------



## JTG (Feb 21, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> Quite right. It's Kieth.


SIR Kieth


----------



## a_chap (Feb 21, 2021)

JTG said:


> SIR Kieth


----------



## Johnny Vodka (Feb 22, 2021)

He's an utterly useless cunt.  Who are you meant to vote for south of the border now?  (I'd probably vote Green.  _slowly backs away_  )


----------



## steeplejack (Feb 22, 2021)

After the weekend's media tour and Sir Kieth's serially pisspoor performance on, well, multiple issues, conclusion:

a) if you're minded to vote Tory you will continue to do so as Sir Kieth looks like a weak imitation of the real thing
b) if you want to vote for a genuine change in direction and live in England, you'll either i. ignore Sir Kieth as he offers a re-branded version of exactly the same as we have already or ii. sit on your hands and wait until he goes away.

At the very time Westminster desperately needs a robust and competent opposition it has found this opportunist mollusc quivering on the riverbank of oblivion. What a fucking embarrassment.


----------



## hitmouse (Feb 22, 2021)

I think Sir Kieieieth's instructions would probably be that you should should abstain for fear of seeming too divisive if you voted for anyone other than the tories.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 22, 2021)

steeplejack said:


> After the weekend's media tour and Sir Kieth's serially pisspoor performance on, well, multiple issues, conclusion:
> 
> a) if you're minded to vote Tory you will continue to do so as Sir Kieth looks like a weak imitation of the real thing
> b) if you want to vote for a genuine change in direction and live in England, you'll either i. ignore Sir Kieth as he offers a re-branded version of exactly the same as we have already or ii. sit on your hands and wait until he goes away.
> ...


Exposure doesn't seem to be helping him:


----------



## steeplejack (Feb 22, 2021)

There'll be an oily stain where he used to be, once the right wing tabloids have worked him over before the 2024 GE. If he makes it that far. Jury's out at the moment.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 22, 2021)

Johnny Vodka said:


> He's an utterly useless cunt.  Who are you meant to vote for south of the border now?  (I'd probably vote Green.  _slowly backs away_  )


Yeah, it’s a real problem.  Fortunately, I have three years to not have to think about it.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Feb 22, 2021)

Today he has refused to hold the govt to account over Matt Hancock. Utterly useless, unless his objective is to help the tories.


----------



## BobDavis (Feb 22, 2021)

So who else then ? Lisa Nandy ? I think she is ok.


----------



## splonkydoo (Feb 22, 2021)

Sir Keir Starmer QC -  Quisling Cunt


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 22, 2021)

BobDavis said:


> So who else then ? Lisa Nandy ? I think she is ok.


theres a similar void where any real convictions should be tbf.


----------



## steeplejack (Feb 22, 2021)

BobDavis said:


> So who else then ? Lisa Nandy ? I think she is ok.



quoting with approval violent crackdown in Catalonia and trying to be _oh so clever_ in re-packaging "common sense" small-town right wing shit as some sort of social democratic agenda. Shifting the problem rather than solving it IMO.


----------



## BobDavis (Feb 22, 2021)

I was looking more at personality & she comes across well in interviews imo. I haven’t looked closely at what she stands for. So who then ? Any suggestions ?


----------



## Johnny Vodka (Feb 22, 2021)

Jeremy Corbyn


----------



## two sheds (Feb 22, 2021)

Could we have Laura Pidcock back? KickStarmer out and have her stand in the by election?

I don't know much about her tbh just remember the statement about not supping with tories.


----------



## Johnny Vodka (Feb 22, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Could we have Laura Pidcock back? KickStarmer out and have her stand in the by election?
> 
> I don't know much about her tbh just remember the statement about not supping with tories.



She seems decent. I follow her on Facebook.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 22, 2021)

Skwarkbox is somewhat breathless but they seem to be pushing Jon Trickett Trickett blasts Starmer’s sickly speech – with a 10-point plan of actual policies


----------



## steeplejack (Feb 22, 2021)

John Trickett is the Geoff Holhurst in this potential race.


----------



## steeplejack (Feb 22, 2021)

BobDavis said:


> I was looking more at personality & she comes across well in interviews imo. I haven’t looked closely at what she stands for. So who then ? Any suggestions ?



Long-Bailey would have made a much better fist of it. The trouble is the media hated her before she even started, so she got nowhere. Too closely associated with Corbyn for them.

Starmer is like a minor television actor playing the Prime Minister, in a walk-on part in a soap opera. Nandy's just awful.


----------



## BobDavis (Feb 22, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Could we have Laura Pidcock back? KickStarmer out and have her stand in the by election?
> 
> I don't know much about her tbh just remember the statement about not supping with tories.


Yes I have been hoping she gets back in a safeish seat in a by election. Are posters saying if they cannot get the Labour government they want they don’t want a Labour government ? I wanted Corbyn as pm but not enough others did but I would still rather have a Labour government than a Tory government.

It depends if you want to win at all costs. It was pretty obvious that Boris Johnson would be a piss poor pm but still the Tories got in. Maybe Labour would have done well enough to have got a hung parliament if they had a leader that voters saw as a pm. Tbf though when Corbyn done rather better in 2017 than anybody thought the right wing press did set about to do a monumental hatchet job on him.

I think to get in Labour will have to plan like Blair & co did before ‘97 but then that will probably not be the Labour government that urban wants.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 22, 2021)

Not watched The Thick of it. Does he swear a lot? I'd like that in a leader of the party. I quite liked this from that article though.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 22, 2021)

Full on attack mode has worked well for the tories - might be a good approach for labour too. There's no shortage of targets and no shortage of ammunition - tory corruption, billionaire spivs building up their wealth while their employees are below minimum wage, hypocrite media barons in the pocket of the tories.

The media's going to be against labour anyway so there's no use trying to suck up to them - make it clear by the next election _why _they're against the party because they have something to hide.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 22, 2021)

BobDavis said:


> Are posters saying if they cannot get the Labour government they want they don’t want a Labour government ?


I’d rather a Tory government facing an effective, fierce left-wing opposition backed up by grassroots anger than a soft-Tory neoliberal Labour government facing no opposition other than a Tory opposition pulling them ever further rightwards.


----------



## Johnny Vodka (Feb 22, 2021)

BobDavis said:


> Yes I have been hoping she gets back in a Safeish seat in a by election. Are posters saying if they cannot get the Labour government they want they don’t want a Labour government ? I wanted Corbyn as pm but not enough others did but I would still rather have a Labour government than a Tory government.



I'm a floating voter so will vote for whatever party best represents me at the time. My voting issues are wealth inequality, the environment, drug policy and various other things. I have the privilege of living in Scotland so currently it's the SNP for me.  They are our (as in the Scottish people's) only way out of Brexit and Nicola is a far better opposition leader than Starmer is (though I've neither been in love with her or Scottish independence historically).


----------



## two sheds (Feb 22, 2021)

And Kieth has come out strongly against cannabis deregulation. Cunt, wonder if he drinks alcohol at all with all its attendant risks.


----------



## Johnny Vodka (Feb 22, 2021)

two sheds said:


> And Kieth has come out strongly against cannabis deregulation. Cunt, wonder if he drinks alcohol at all with all its attendant risks.



He's obviously trying to steal the Daily Mail reader vote.


----------



## Orang Utan (Feb 22, 2021)

Keir!


----------



## kabbes (Feb 22, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> Keir!


Keierth?


----------



## steeplejack (Feb 22, 2021)

Sir Sheath Karma


----------



## Johnny Vodka (Feb 22, 2021)

Queef?


----------



## Raheem (Feb 22, 2021)

Johnny Vodka said:


> Queef?


Stay where you are, I'll fetch a bucket.


----------



## gosub (Feb 22, 2021)

Johnny Vodka said:


> I'm a floating voter so will vote for whatever party best represents me at the time. My voting issues are wealth inequality, the environment, drug policy and various other things. I have the privilege of living in Scotland so currently it's the SNP for me.  They are our (as in the Scottish people's) only way out of Brexit and Nicola is a far better opposition leader than Starmer is (though I've neither been in love with her or Scottish independence historically).



Some choppy water coming up for the SNP from what I understand


----------



## Lord Camomile (Feb 22, 2021)

Didn't know which of the two pillocks' threads to put this on, but this one was on the first page of New Posts 

Why does Johnson keep pushing the line that Starmer's support for government initiatives is flaky and he keeps changing his mind, given the government's own well-documented history of frequent u-turns?

I honestly don't know if it's actually gaining any traction out of PMQs and the like. Are the public/media buying it?


----------



## Johnny Vodka (Feb 22, 2021)

gosub said:


> Some choppy water coming up for the SNP from what I understand



Maybe.  It's not like I agree with them on everything, although they are our only way back into the EU. I have half an eye on the Scottish Greens, but not sure they even fielded a candidate in my area the last time, and it's always a worry the Tories could get in somewhere due to the Yoon vote.


----------



## BobDavis (Feb 22, 2021)

Lord Camomile said:


> Didn't know which of the two pillocks' threads to put this on, but this one was on the first page of New Posts
> 
> Why does Johnson keep pushing the line that Starmer's support for government initiatives is flaky and he keeps changing his mind, given the government's own well-documented history of frequent u-turns?
> 
> I honestly don't know if it's actually gaining any traction out of PMQs and the like. Are the public/media buying it?


Johnson’s mo at pmq’s is to not answer questions presumably because he does not know the answers & instead accuse Starmer of trying to play politics with Covid & so on. Johnson just continues with this like a stuck record. Anything Starmer says about export problems post brexit then it’s just accusations of being a remainer. Johnson has even been told off by the speaker about the refusal to answer questions & just take the piss but nothing changes.

It is populism I suppose. Playing to his supporters. I think this is why Starmer is keeping things a bit low key right now. I would have thought even 2 years is enough time before the next general election to mount a gradual election campaign so there is time left yet. Also if Labour do decide to change their leader they probably need to do it over 2 years before next ge. I can’t see it though. I reckon Starmer will either be prime minister or ex leader of the opposition after next ge.

I wonder many people actually watch or listen to pmq’s though ?


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 22, 2021)

BobDavis said:


> Johnson’s mo at pmq’s is to not answer questions presumably because he does not know the answers & instead accuse Starmer of trying to play politics with Covid & so on. Johnson just continues with this like a stuck record. Anything Starmer says about export problems post brexit then it’s just accusations of being a remainer. Johnson has even been told off by the speaker about the refusal to answer questions & just take the piss but nothing changes.
> 
> It is populism I suppose. Playing to his supporters. I think this is why Starmer is keeping things a bit low key right now. I would have thought even 2 years is enough time before the next general election to mount a gradual election campaign so there is time left yet. Also if Labour do decide to change their leader they probably need to do it over 2 years before next ge. I can’t see it though. I reckon Starmer will either be prime minister or ex leader of the opposition after next ge.
> 
> I wonder many people actually watch or listen to pmq’s though ?


you do know there are local and regional elections in between general elections? that there are elections to the scottish parliament in a few months? if sks is being shite now it's likely because he's not playing the long game but he's simply not as good as he thinks he is at this game.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Feb 22, 2021)

Well it's no wonder Keith is letting Hancock off the hook









						Tony Blair ‘advising Matt Hancock on pandemic response’
					

Secret talks covered vaccines and mass testing




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 22, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> Well it's no wonder Keith is lettingHancock off the hook
> 
> 
> 
> ...


it could also be because sks is crap. he's the tomas brolin or andreas cornelius of parliamentary debating.


----------



## BobDavis (Feb 22, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> you do know there are local and regional elections in between general elections? that there are elections to the scottish parliament in a few months? if sks is being shite now it's likely because he's not playing the long game but he's simply not as good as he thinks he is at this game.


I think he has decided it is better to play the long game for reasons I stated but I agree with you that he is not as good as he thinks he is. Question I asked earlier though. When do Labour kick him out of the job & who do they replace him with ? I think Labour have written off Scotland though.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 22, 2021)

BobDavis said:


> I think he has decided it is better to play the long game for reasons I stated but I agree with you that he is not as good as he thinks he is. Question I asked earlier though. When do Labour kick him out of the job & who do they replace him with ? I think Labour have written off Scotland though.


never mind the long game, he might show he has some politics. he's been abysmal over brexit, absolutely supine. there's been nothing there to suggest he has any ideas to put forwards about the country's relationship with the eu. he's been abysmal with the covert human intelligence sources bill. this isn't about prime minister's questions, this is about the larger issue of does he have any politics or principles? and i suspect he doesn't. as for who they get, i don't imagine they'll be much of an improvement.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 22, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> never mind the long game, he might show he has some politics. he's been abysmal over brexit, absolutely supine. there's been nothing there to suggest he has any ideas to put forwards about the country's relationship with the eu. he's been abysmal with the covert human intelligence sources bill. this isn't about prime minister's questions, this is about the larger issue of does he have any politics or principles? and i suspect he doesn't. as for who they get, i don't imagine they'll be much of an improvement.


During the leadership election someone asked my OH if she was going to vote for SKS and she used the old (apocryphal ?) 1994 Miners' response to the similar question about Blair..._nah, I'm Labour._


----------



## BobDavis (Feb 22, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> Well it's no wonder Keith is letting Hancock off the hook
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Fookin hell. Question answered. Blair wins by-election becomes Labour leader !


----------



## teqniq (Feb 22, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> Well it's no wonder Keith is letting Hancock off the hook
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Apparently not anymore:



No honour amongst politicians eh?


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 22, 2021)

teqniq said:


> Apparently not anymore:



only blair would be stupid enough to nick ideas from this nefandous government


----------



## brogdale (Feb 22, 2021)

From a twatter champion...


----------



## hitmouse (Feb 22, 2021)

Lord Camomile said:


> Didn't know which of the two pillocks' threads to put this on, but this one was on the first page of New Posts
> 
> Why does Johnson keep pushing the line that Starmer's support for government initiatives is flaky and he keeps changing his mind, given the government's own well-documented history of frequent u-turns?


I don't really have a proper answer for this, but I think it'd be funny if Johnson just went full in on it. Like "last month I was saying this thing and Starmer said he agreed with me, and now I'm saying the complete opposite, and yet Starmer still thinks I'm right. He has completely changed his position over the course of the last month, the man is unreliable and cannot be trusted!"


----------



## mojo pixy (Feb 22, 2021)

If Labour were really playing a 'long game' they'd go full-on socialist and wait for the rest of the country to catch up. Like maybe act_ as if _they actually had principles, or something. 

There's no long-game, there's only _what are the papers saying today? _


----------



## Chilli.s (Feb 22, 2021)

The only long game thing is the chapter in his memoirs about how misunderstood he was when he ruined labour and let tories win again.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Feb 22, 2021)

Yet more proof that Keith is just a reactionary









						EXCLUSIVE: Drug cops slam Keir Starmer for his comments on cannabis | JOE.co.uk
					

A group of ex-drug cops and police chiefs have slammed Sir Keir Starmer's comments on cannabis - plus his overall stance on drug criminalisation




					www.joe.co.uk


----------



## gosub (Feb 22, 2021)

Johnny Vodka said:


> Maybe.  It's not like I agree with them on everything, although they are our only way back into the EU. I have half an eye on the Scottish Greens, but not sure they even fielded a candidate in my area the last time, and it's always a worry the Tories could get in somewhere due to the Yoon vote.


In terms of European politics a vote for SNP or Scottish Greens used to lbe a vote for the same party.


----------



## gosub (Feb 22, 2021)

Johnny Vodka said:


> Maybe.  It's not like I agree with them on everything, although they are our only way back into the EU. I have half an eye on the Scottish Greens, but not sure they even fielded a candidate in my area the last time, and it's always a worry the Tories could get in somewhere due to the Yoon vote.


Whilst the Labour left rage at Kieth for wanting to wrap himself in the Union Jack...


----------



## elbows (Feb 23, 2021)

He will transform the war on drugs by repurposing the term k-hole to apply instead to the ultimate destination for him and his policies.

Bernard Cribbins hopes that Starmer doesnt take too long to complete this transformation, since theres a song he'd like to repurpose for the occasion whilst he is still alive.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Feb 23, 2021)

Team Starmerarma must be a bleak place to be right now.

Johnston is about to get a poll bounce as science potentially saves us and him from the pandemic. The botched PPE, the botched test, track and trace system, the 3 previous attempts to release lockdown, operation moonshot, the criminal incompetence, the lives lost - will all seem a distant memory to enough people soon. Johnston will - if he manages to not fuck it up - benefit from the genius and hard work of others. 

In Scotland Labour continues to decompose. 

Local elections loom.

But, as the last few pages of this thread show, Starmer looks safe purely on the basis that there is no credible successor.

During happier times for his now departed fan club on here, and his media pals, he was compared to Wilson. A more apt description appears to be Michael Howard. An unloved leader, a party doomed to defeat, a party out of ideas....


----------



## magneze (Feb 23, 2021)

Caption competition anyone?


----------



## mauvais (Feb 23, 2021)

steeplejack said:


> Long-Bailey would have made a much better fist of it. The trouble is the media hated her before she even started, so she got nowhere. Too closely associated with Corbyn for them.
> 
> Starmer is like a minor television actor playing the Prime Minister, in a walk-on part in a soap opera. Nandy's just awful.


RLB is a pretty terrible politician and only lived for a time as a leadership prospect thanks to a sort of collective, out-of-options buy-in to an unrealistic, unimaginative fan fiction.


----------



## hitmouse (Feb 23, 2021)

Tbf, "pretty terrible" and "would have been better than Starmer" aren't necessarily mutually exclusive.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Feb 23, 2021)

magneze said:


> Caption competition anyone?



“Looking in the wrong places for the red wall”...


----------



## MickiQ (Feb 23, 2021)

mauvais said:


> RLB is a pretty terrible politician and only lived for a time as a leadership prospect thanks to a sort of collective, out-of-options buy-in to an unrealistic, unimaginative fan fiction.


I am so totally stealing that and passing it off as my own


----------



## splonkydoo (Feb 23, 2021)

magneze said:


> Caption competition anyone?



'Piffle, I've been waiting here over an hour.. Can't believe Boris would lie to me like tht.'


----------



## splonkydoo (Feb 23, 2021)

magneze said:


> Caption competition anyone?



'..let's be absolutely clear, as your leader, I will bring back British grass for British beef..'


----------



## Brainaddict (Feb 23, 2021)

magneze said:


> Caption competition anyone?


How did I get here? Was it drugs? Did someone give me DRUGS? I heard that drugs are bad but I didn't think I'd end up seeing nothing but cows. My god I was right, no-one should be allowed to do this to themselves.


----------



## Sprocket. (Feb 23, 2021)

magneze said:


> Caption competition anyone?


There is a strong stench of bullshit around here!


----------



## Raheem (Feb 23, 2021)

magneze said:


> Caption competition anyone?


"I don't get it! There were thousands here for Corbyn in 2017!"


----------



## brogdale (Feb 23, 2021)

magneze said:


> Caption competition anyone?


Whadya mean, a millionaire? We only own up as far as the wood....


----------



## hitmouse (Feb 23, 2021)

magneze said:


> Caption competition anyone?


Why does he look like he's about to start asking the cows "who fucking wants some, then?"


----------



## magneze (Feb 23, 2021)

magneze said:


> Caption competition anyone?


"What does someone have to do to get a frothy coffee around here?"


----------



## elbows (Feb 23, 2021)

Welcome to my new show, 'Whats your beef with Kieth?'


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Feb 23, 2021)

magneze said:


> Caption competition anyone?



'I'm gonna kill that Eavis twat!'


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 23, 2021)

has anyone seen to the drainage in the lower field?


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Feb 23, 2021)

magneze said:


> Caption competition anyone?



'My suit is still over there isn't it? Are you sure? Can I put it back on yet?'


----------



## lazythursday (Feb 23, 2021)

Let's face it, whatever you think of him or his politics, the obvious successor is Burnham. Unpopular with the party machine though, he isn't going to find a safe seat open up for him magically in the next couple of years.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 23, 2021)

DotCommunist said:


> has anyone seen to the drainage in the lower field?


I wouldn’t know about that zur


----------



## killer b (Feb 23, 2021)

lazythursday said:


> Let's face it, whatever you think of him or his politics, the obvious successor is Burnham. Unpopular with the party machine though, he isn't going to find a safe seat open up for him magically in the next couple of years.


Doesn't matter too much if the timing works - he could stand in any marginal greater Manchester seat right now and win IMO


----------



## ska invita (Feb 23, 2021)

lazythursday said:


> Let's face it, whatever you think of him or his politics, the obvious successor is Burnham. Unpopular with the party machine though, he isn't going to find a safe seat open up for him magically in the next couple of years.



heres what oddschecker has for next leader


Clive Lewis has gone forom 500/1 to 33/1
you can get 60/1 for  Zarah Sultana

 i heard RIchard Burgon speak the other day, he seems alright.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Feb 23, 2021)

ska invita said:


> i heard RIchard Burgon speak the other day, he seems alright.



Seriously? You can imagine people listening to him and going 'yeah, I'll vote for him as PM'??


----------



## lazythursday (Feb 23, 2021)

Bizarre odds. There is like zero chance of Dodds or RLB and I have no idea who Carden is.


----------



## Sprocket. (Feb 23, 2021)

I surmise Burnham truly believes he can help more people politically in the position he is currently in, supported by the locals. More than he could achieve as leader of a party that currently seems more intent on making itself irrelevant.


----------



## killer b (Feb 23, 2021)

lazythursday said:


> I have no idea who Carden is.


he is active on twitter, so politics twitter nerds think he's _someone to watch_


----------



## ska invita (Feb 23, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Seriously? You can imagine people listening to him and going 'yeah, I'll vote for him as PM'??


No 
he seemed like an okay human being though


----------



## ska invita (Feb 23, 2021)

Sprocket. said:


> I surmise Burnham truly believes he can help more people politically in the position he is currently in....


...a position he is in after losing in the leadership contest to Corbyn IIRC. He wanted the leadership job


----------



## Sprocket. (Feb 23, 2021)

ska invita said:


> ...a position he is in after losing in the leadership contest to Corbyn IIRC. He wanted the leadership job


But would he give his current job up and chuck his hat in the ring?


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 23, 2021)

magneze said:


> Caption competition anyone?


even as a scarecrow starmer found himself in the wrong field


----------



## ska invita (Feb 23, 2021)

Sprocket. said:


> But would he give his current job up and chuck his hat in the ring?


No idea but id guess Yes though, if theres momentum around him and sufficient egging on


----------



## lazythursday (Feb 23, 2021)

Sprocket. said:


> But would he give his current job up and chuck his hat in the ring?


He's danced around the topic in interviews recently, so the answer is absolutely yes.


----------



## Orang Utan (Feb 23, 2021)

ska invita said:


> heres what oddschecker has for next leader
> View attachment 255767
> 
> Clive Lewis has gone forom 500/1 to 33/1
> ...


I’ve met him several times and he’s a Yorkshire Tim Nice But Dim, a Rick But Thick if you will


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 23, 2021)

lazythursday said:


> He's danced around the topic in interviews recently, so the answer is absolutely yes.


i wonder if he'll get a chance to show us his moves in strickly


----------



## SpookyFrank (Feb 23, 2021)

magneze said:


> Caption competition anyone?



And you want to call your mother and say, 'mother, I can never come home again, because I seem to have left an important part of my brain somewhere, somewhere in a field in Hampshire.'


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Feb 23, 2021)

Sprocket. said:


> But would he give his current job up and chuck his hat in the ring?



A little while ago (well pre-Covid so a fair while now) I saw Burnham in the pub at Euston Station with a posse of men in suits, presumably waiting for a train back to Manchester. Got to say the way he was holding court didn't look like a man with a small ego who just wants to achieve the most for people.


----------



## ska invita (Feb 23, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> I’ve met him several times and he’s a Yorkshire Tim Nice But Dim, a Rick But Thick if you will


cant argue with your experience but that seems a bit harsh, seems like a normal person to me


----------



## BobDavis (Feb 23, 2021)

ska invita said:


> No
> he seemed like an okay human being though


I would agree. I have heard him in interviews but not a possible PM. Probably the Labour leader who might actually manage to become PM after the next ge is unlikely to be approved of by urban.


----------



## JTG (Feb 23, 2021)

Confirmed - Liverpool mayor selections being reopened and previous candidates not being invited to apply. So the all-woman shortlist has been binned. Anna Rothery, who is black and on the left, was the favourite to win the nomination


----------



## ska invita (Feb 23, 2021)

JTG said:


> Confirmed - Liverpool mayor selections being reopened and previous candidates not being invited to apply. So the all-woman shortlist has been binned. Anna Rothery, who is black and on the left, was the favourite to win the nomination


Chilling
"We are committed to ensuring members are able to* choose the right candidate *to stand up against the Conservatives, lead Liverpool out of the coronavirus crisis and fight for the resources that the city desperately needs."


----------



## NoXion (Feb 23, 2021)




----------



## hitmouse (Feb 23, 2021)

ska invita said:


> i heard RIchard Burgon speak the other day, he seems alright.


I was once at an event where Andy Burham was one of the scheduled speakers, and when I listened to him speak I thought "fair play, there's a lot I don't like about the man but he's definitely a better speaker than I expected." Then after he finished I realised I can't tell Labour MPs apart and I'd actually been listening to Richard Burgon, Burnham was on after him and was exactly as dull as I expected. So, good news for Burgon among the crucial "not being able to remember what Labour politicians look like" demographic there.


----------



## ska invita (Feb 23, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> I was once at an event where Andy Burham was one of the scheduled speakers, and when I listened to him speak I thought "fair play, there's a lot I don't like about the man but he's definitely a better speaker than I expected." Then after he finished I realised I can't tell Labour MPs apart and I'd actually been listening to Richard Burgon, Burnham was on after him and was exactly as dull as I expected. So, good news for Burgon among the crucial "not being able to remember what Labour politicians look like" demographic there.


yes burnham is dull and mopey as anything - i cant see him winning an election, but i can see his face once the count is in and he realises he's lost


----------



## ska invita (Feb 23, 2021)

JTG said:


> Confirmed - Liverpool mayor selections being reopened and previous candidates not being invited to apply. So the all-woman shortlist has been binned. Anna Rothery, who is black and on the left, was the favourite to win the nomination



theres got to be repercussion's here, this is taking the living piss


----------



## steveseagull (Feb 23, 2021)

So can the CLPs just nominate the same three candidates and flick the bird to David Evans? Not sure how the process works. Whatever, this is appalling and is goign to go down like a sack of shit with the BAME MPs that backed her (most of them)


----------



## teqniq (Feb 23, 2021)

Maybe this was tweeted before the above unwelcome news?



Lots of support in the replies, people advising her to stand as an independent


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 23, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Seriously? You can imagine people listening to him and going 'yeah, I'll vote for him as PM'??


Burgon is enthusiastic,  some of his politics are ok but  some of his stuff is flimsy and dire riddled with Labour lib/ lefty ism . He's a solicitor so he can speak but very little substance imo. Also, do we really need another bloody solicitor ?


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 23, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> I was once at an event where Andy Burham was one of the scheduled speakers, and when I listened to him speak I thought "fair play, there's a lot I don't like about the man but he's definitely a better speaker than I expected." Then after he finished I realised I can't tell Labour MPs apart and I'd actually been listening to Richard Burgon, Burnham was on after him and was exactly as dull as I expected. So, good news for Burgon among the crucial "not being able to remember what Labour politicians look like" demographic there.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 23, 2021)

Sprocket. said:


> But would he give his current job up and chuck his hat in the ring?


First of all there would have to be some significant momentum ( not the studenty lot) for a leadership challenge and I don't see where that is coming from. Secondly in his interviews he does prevaricate a lot,I think his head says maybe and his heart maybe not.  He makes a lot of sense when he talks about being more comfortable on a regional level, he mentions 'place' a lot. His support would undoubtedly come from the North especially from the Labour membership and the councils over his prominence in the levelling up debate, I'm sure he'd attract union leadership support but as I say where is the impetus for him to stand and it might be by the time Starmer goes at the next election that his time has passed. As a speaker he actually isn't bad, he's not a firebrand but he is thoughtful, measured, spars well and certainly isn't taken as a fool.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 23, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Burgon is enthusiastic,  some of his politics are ok but  some of his stuff is flimsy and dire riddled with Labour lib/ lefty ism . He's a solicitor so he can speak but very little substance imo. Also, do we really need another bloody solicitor ?


I can't hear his name without thinking about when he stood in for Corbyn in the ITV "leaders' debate" at the last GE and got owned by the fucking Plaid Cymru bloke; remember the face?


----------



## steveseagull (Feb 23, 2021)

Legal action klaxon. They will have more legal cases than members before long


----------



## JTG (Feb 23, 2021)

It's basically because she got endorsed by Corbyn, that's why they're blowing it up. That and they think they'll get away with it because they're taking Liverpool for granted


----------



## killer b (Feb 23, 2021)

they probably will get away with it tbf


----------



## cantsin (Feb 23, 2021)

JTG said:


> It's basically because she got endorsed by Corbyn, that's why they're blowing it up. That and they think they'll get away with it because they're taking Liverpool for granted



 - V much hoping Ann stands as independent socialist if needed, hopefully with ( Independent ? ) Momentum backing 
-  (Bristol Momentum have taken initial steps by starting #campaignstrike in response to HQ piss take re: Bristol West CLP)


----------



## Orang Utan (Feb 23, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Burgon is enthusiastic,  some of his politics are ok but  some of his stuff is flimsy and dire riddled with Labour lib/ lefty ism . He's a solicitor so he can speak but very little substance imo. Also, do we really need another bloody solicitor ?


He’s just not a very good media player - have seen him struggling to answer very slightly challenging questions by not particularly adept local tv journalists. He’d get torn apart by full on media scrutiny


----------



## JTG (Feb 23, 2021)

cantsin said:


> V much hoping Ann stands as independent socialist if needed, hopefully with ( Independent ? ) Momentum backing
> (Bristol Momentum have taken initial steps by starting #campaignstrike in response to HQ piss take re: Bristol West CLP)


Twitter rumour has her considering standing for the Northern Independence Party


----------



## killer b (Feb 23, 2021)

Anyone reckon she's got the kind of profile to pull off an independent run? I was reading earlier that her national reputation as a leftwinger is not shared among leftwingers in Liverpool itself...


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 23, 2021)

JTG said:


> Twitter rumour has her considering standing for the Northern Independence Party


Well they invited her to join but that's about it . She tweeted that she was considering legal action.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 23, 2021)

killer b said:


> Anyone reckon she's got the kind of profile to pull off an independent run? I was reading earlier that her national reputation as a leftwinger is not shared among leftwingers in Liverpool itself...


Which left wingers are they?


----------



## agricola (Feb 23, 2021)

killer b said:


> Anyone reckon she's got the kind of profile to pull off an independent run? I was reading earlier that her national reputation as a leftwinger is not shared among leftwingers in Liverpool itself...



TBF I don't think that will matter; if they do impose someone (especially someone ridiculous) as the official LP candidate then the city will probably vote for someone who was banned from the contest instead, just to spite them. 

It is a fantastic city, with fantastic people, and a big part of the reason for their general soundness is that they rarely put up with people who take the piss like that.


----------



## killer b (Feb 23, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Which left wingers are they?


Didn't get any names sorry - some chat on Owen Hatherley's TL, he's usually reasonably reliable IME


----------



## Johnny Vodka (Feb 23, 2021)

magneze said:


> Caption competition anyone?


----------



## killer b (Feb 23, 2021)

agricola said:


> TBF I don't think that will matter; if they do impose someone (especially someone ridiculous) as the official LP candidate then the city will probably vote for someone who was banned from the contest instead, just to spite them.


I dunno if that's true tbh. Internal party selections are not of interest to most of the electorate. Plenty of shit candidates parachuted into Liverpool constituencies in the past - cf. Luciana Berger, Frank Field. Sure there's more but those two spring to mind.

I doubt the conditions exist right now for an independent socialist to run and win in Liverpool.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 23, 2021)

killer b said:


> Didn't get any names sorry - some chat on Owen Hatherley's TL, he's usually reasonably reliable IME



I only know three people in the Labour Party in Liverpool , well ones just left actually. All on the left, one is ex SWP recently suspended, one is a steward in Unite and the lad who left is in FLAF  they all backed her as the best out of what they saw as two centre left  candidates and a  relatively right wing/continuity candidate. Its the London dictating to Liverpool thing which has really got peoples backs up and the fact that none of these candidates can reapply.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 23, 2021)

killer b said:


> I dunno if that's true tbh. Internal party selections are not of interest to most of the electorate. Plenty of shit candidates parachuted into Liverpool constituencies in the past - cf. Luciana Berger, Frank Field. Sure there's more but those two spring to mind.
> 
> I doubt the conditions exist right now for an independent socialist to run and win in Liverpool.


Must be a big doubt how even Corbyn would get on if he stood in a London Mayoral elections imo.


----------



## agricola (Feb 23, 2021)

killer b said:


> I dunno if that's true tbh. Internal party selections are not of interest to most of the electorate. Plenty of shit candidates parachuted into Liverpool constituencies in the past - cf. Luciana Berger, Frank Field. Sure there's more but those two spring to mind.
> 
> I doubt the conditions exist right now for an independent socialist to run and win in Liverpool.



They did parachute in some very shameful people indeed, but I think the difference with this is that it would basically end up being a single-issue election.


----------



## killer b (Feb 23, 2021)

As I said, I'm not sure it would - most of the electorate just don't care about Labour Party selections.


----------



## mauvais (Feb 23, 2021)

magneze said:


> Caption competition anyone?


It's obviously Keir Farmer.

However IMO he looks like he's received a urgent phone call to come and teach an "emergency P.E. class", has arrived in the cow field, and is still several minutes of forensic analysis away from correctly identifying it as a prank.


----------



## Arbeter Fraynd (Feb 23, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> He’s just not a very good media player - have seen him struggling to answer very slightly challenging questions by not particularly adept local tv journalists. He’d get torn apart by full on media scrutiny



yeah, he sounds a bit out of his depth even being interviewed by Novara etc


----------



## hitmouse (Feb 23, 2021)

magneze said:


> Caption competition anyone?


A bit late, but I've now realised it must be unused footage from an early version of this:


----------



## ska invita (Feb 23, 2021)

Sound like another court case beckons... I wonder what the legal standing is for Anna. I expect they've gone about it in a way to avoid getting legal fallout - that reinterviewing process will be their attempt at getting off the hook. I am not a legal advisor 

meanwhile a year ago....


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Feb 23, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Sound like another court case beckons... I wonder what the legal standing is for Anna. I expect they've gone about it in a way to avoid getting legal fallout - that reinterviewing process will be their attempt at getting off the hook. I am not a legal advisor
> 
> meanwhile a year ago....






for some reason that one's getting quite a few re-tweets today...


----------



## killer b (Feb 23, 2021)

I can't see any legal challenge getting anywhere, the Labour rules are clear that the party (the NEC in any case) has absolute power over the process and can impose candidates for any reason it deems necessary.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Feb 23, 2021)

killer b said:


> I can't see any legal challenge getting anywhere, the Labour rules are clear that the party (the NEC in any case) has absolute power over the process and can impose candidates for any reason it deems necessary.



If that's what the rules are, then not that easy to see what bit of law might be brought in to use, unless there's a potentially prove-able sex / race discrimination angle (not that i am suggesting there might be, i've not had anything to do with the process)


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 23, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Sound like another court case beckons... I wonder what the legal standing is for Anna. I expect they've gone about it in a way to avoid getting legal fallout - that reinterviewing process will be their attempt at getting off the hook. I am not a legal advisor
> 
> meanwhile a year ago....



I thought they'd said that the three candidates will not be asked to be re- interviewed? ie need to apply


----------



## ska invita (Feb 23, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> I thought they'd said that the three candidates will not be asked to be re- interviewed? ie need to apply


aaah...im not sure now, i thought they were all re-interviewed, and off the back of that were shunted off - using the interview process to legitimise the shunting
ive just looked it up and you are right: they were told there'd be a follow up interview but it didn't happen


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Feb 23, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> I thought they'd said that the three candidates will not be asked to be re- interviewed? ie need to apply





> It has now been confirmed that none of the three shortlisted candidates is being invited to apply for the reopened selection contest.



from BBC article

i'm not clued up enough in the process to know whether this means "we are not specifically inviting them to re-apply, but they can re-apply subject to whatever nomination process is involved" or "we are not inviting them to re-apply so they will not be allowed to be part of any new selection process"

from the fuss that is being made, i'd assume it means the latter...


----------



## splonkydoo (Feb 23, 2021)

ska invita said:


> aaah...im not sure now, i thought they were all re-interviewed, and off the back of that were shunted off - using the interview process to legitimise the shunting
> ive just looked it up and you are right: they were told there'd be a follow up interview but it didn't happen




They were called in/had some type of interview on Friday I read. Then a statement out today saying the process would re-open and that they would not need to apply.. 

I imagine they will use this Friday interview as fodder for their justification for unsuitability.


----------



## belboid (Feb 23, 2021)

killer b said:


> I can't see any legal challenge getting anywhere, the Labour rules are clear that the party (the NEC in any case) has absolute power over the process and can impose candidates for any reason it deems necessary.


unless it concerns a protected characteristic.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 23, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> from BBC article
> 
> i'm not clued up enough in the process to know whether this means "we are not specifically inviting them to re-apply, but they can re-apply subject to whatever nomination process is involved" or "we are not inviting them to re-apply so they will not be allowed to be part of any new selection process"
> 
> from the fuss that is being made, i'd assume it means the latter...


I'm not familiar with the Labour Party's internal processes apart from what I read or when I speak to Labour Party members. Seems to me that the Labour Party can either hold their line or do a fudge ie reinterview the three with the imposed new candidates and then fuck the three off. My guess is that unless there's a big campaign its the former and further marginalises awkward constituency branches and what's left of the left.


----------



## ska invita (Feb 24, 2021)

splonkydoo said:


> They were called in/had some type of interview on Friday I read. Then a statement out today saying the process would re-open and that they would not need to apply..
> 
> I imagine they will use this Friday interview as fodder for their justification for unsuitability.


thats what i thought, not sure why i thought that
liverpool echo says
"The three candidates were asked to come back for follow up interviews on Friday but then received no contact from the party for several days. Today, the party took the unprecedented decision to re-open applications for the post and said that the three shortlisted candidates should not apply again."








						Anna Rothery considering legal action over Labour Mayoral chaos
					

The councillor is one of three women removed from shortlist in shock move and said she will consider injunction if decision not reversed




					www.liverpoolecho.co.uk
				



....did they have those friday interviews? reading it again the way that is written is grammatically ambiguous , both possibilities could be true.
whatever, fuck starmer. good night


----------



## oryx (Feb 24, 2021)

ska invita said:


> thats what i thought, not sure why i thought that
> liverpool echo says
> "The three candidates were asked to come back for follow up interviews on Friday but then received no contact from the party for several days. Today, the party took the unprecedented decision to re-open applications for the post and said that the three shortlisted candidates should not apply again."
> 
> ...


Whole thing absolutely stinks.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 24, 2021)

Tweet off reddit explains the reason for re-opening interviews:


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 24, 2021)

Rumours that former MEP Theresa Griffin will be the only candidate in the re-opened selection. Backed by both Tribune and Labour First in the NEC elections last year


----------



## hitmouse (Feb 24, 2021)

Obligatory 
Would it not in that case be simpler
for the NEC
To dissolve the membership
And elect another?


----------



## ska invita (Feb 24, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Would it not in that case be simpler for the NEC to dissolve the membership


thats what theyre doing (though without the reelecting a new one bit)


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 24, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Tweet off reddit explains the reason for re-opening interviews:
> 
> View attachment 255876


There are no loopholes in the rulebook

There are large tunnels tho


----------



## two sheds (Feb 24, 2021)

"Wormholes in space" or 

"Eddies in the space time continuum" 
"Is he?"


----------



## steeplejack (Feb 24, 2021)

LOL. Labour now to the right of Rishi Sunak. A Cameroonist opposition to a UKIP government.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 24, 2021)

What is the point of them?


----------



## hitmouse (Feb 24, 2021)

kabbes said:


> What is the point of them?


Well, someone's got to stand up for the large corprations making massive profits. (((big firms)))


----------



## Santino (Feb 24, 2021)

kabbes said:


> What is the point of them?


Neutralising and re-directing the proletariat's actualisation of its historico-political function.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 24, 2021)

Santino said:


> Neutralising and re-directing the proletariat's actualisation of its historico-political function.


Ah yes, that.  I forgot that.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 24, 2021)

.


----------



## Santino (Feb 24, 2021)

kabbes said:


> Ah yes, that.  I forgot that.


That's what makes them so good at it.


----------



## killer b (Feb 24, 2021)

Incredible really that the one thing they'll oppose is the policies which made Rishi Sunak the most popular politician in the country.


----------



## steeplejack (Feb 24, 2021)

kabbes said:


> What is the point of them?



In present form, absolutely none. If you want to vote for shit right wing politics, go to the origin, rather than the tribute act.

A tribute act to the most corrupt far right Tory government in living memory. The Labour Party, ladies and gentlemen.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 24, 2021)

No I'm sure all potential labour voters are screaming out No, no DON'T INCREASE TAXES FOR RICH COMPANIES WHO'VE DONE WELL OUT OF COVID THAT'S NOT WHAT WE WANT TO HELP US SURVIVE.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Feb 24, 2021)

the point?

a harmless alternative to the Conservatives, which could then be allowed to take office now and then when the Conservatives fell out of favour with the public.

“If the Labour Party could be bullied or persuaded to denounce its Marxists, the media - having tasted blood - would demand next that it expelled all its Socialist and reunited the remaining Labour Party with the SDP to form a harmless alternative to the Conservatives, which could then be allowed to take office now and then when the Conservatives fell out of favour with the public. Thus British Capitalism, it is argued, will be made safe forever, and socialism would be squeezed of the National agenda. But if such a strategy were to succeed… it would in fact profoundly endanger British society. For it would open up the danger of a swing to the far-right, as we have seen in Europe over the last 50 years.”

Tony Benn


----------



## Rimbaud (Feb 24, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> the point?
> 
> a harmless alternative to the Conservatives, which could then be allowed to take office now and then when the Conservatives fell out of favour with the public.
> 
> ...



Woah, that quote... Prescient.


----------



## ska invita (Feb 24, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> reunited the remaining Labour Party with the SDP to form a harmless alternative to the Conservatives,


this needs to happen one way or another one day - Right wing Labour and the LibDems exist within one party
the coalition of the Labour party has to end
only two ways I can see it happening, 1: proportional representation or 2: the unions forcing a split of some description


----------



## kabbes (Feb 24, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> the point?
> 
> a harmless alternative to the Conservatives, which could then be allowed to take office now and then when the Conservatives fell out of favour with the public.
> 
> ...


Probably helps to identify this as a 1982 quote, for full context


----------



## splonkydoo (Feb 24, 2021)

Owen Jones on twitter has been saying that it is just down to incompetence of a reckless party - because some source told him - but then  won't tell anyone else what that going on actually was.


----------



## Raheem (Feb 24, 2021)

splonkydoo said:


> Owen Jones on twitter has been saying that it is just down to incompetence of a reckless party - because some source told him - but then  won't tell anyone else what that going on actually was.


Which "it" are we talking about? (Not criticising your post, but interested to know).


----------



## splonkydoo (Feb 24, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Which "it" are we talking about? (Not criticising your post, but interested to know).



The Liverpool fiasco


----------



## Raheem (Feb 24, 2021)

splonkydoo said:


> The Liverpool fiasco


I can imagine incompetence being part of it. Rothery seems to acknowledge something sub-par about the selection process. But there's no plausible way that's the beginning and end of the story.


----------



## splonkydoo (Feb 24, 2021)

Raheem said:


> I can imagine incompetence being part of it. Rothery seems to acknowledge something sub-par about the selection process. But there's no plausible way that's the beginning and end of the story.



Oh I agree, I was just highlighting because I thought it was a pretty strange, and smug, way to react.


----------



## Raheem (Feb 24, 2021)

splonkydoo said:


> Oh I agree, I was just highlighting because I thought it was a pretty strange, and smug, way to react.


Yes, I wasn't imagining you were saying OJ's take was the right one.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Feb 24, 2021)

Revisionist Starmer Clique excoriated:


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Feb 24, 2021)

It has degenerated (read reverted back) into a social imperialist party under the rule of that renegade Starmer and his cronies


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Feb 25, 2021)

Capitalist roader Starmer outflanked to the left by the Boris regime!


----------



## Knotted (Feb 25, 2021)

Boris says "you vacillate, we vaccinate" and I want to cheer. When they're dooking it out in the commons it's hard not to see Boris - Boris!! - as the more serious politician. Everything Sir Keith says feels superficial, "playing the long game" etc.


----------



## Knotted (Feb 25, 2021)

He isn't trying to win people (red wall etc.) over to Labour, he's trying to make Labour "respectable" again, which is a very different thing, it's a strategy for dealing with the media. And what do I know? It may just work. Maybe eg The Sun won't be hostile to Labour at the next general election. But they aren't going to be supporting Labour because it isn't its own project, it's destined to be the main anti-Tory protest vote and nothing more but that's not even real bourgeois respectability. These post-Brexit and (hopefully soon to be) post-Covid times don't call for a harmless caretaker technocratic government.


----------



## NoXion (Feb 25, 2021)

Knotted said:


> And what do I know? It may just work. Maybe eg The Sun won't be hostile to Labour at the next general election.



Good joke. Even if the Labour party became indistinguishable from the Tories, the Sun would still attack them.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 25, 2021)

The S*N has supported labour for loads of elections - including quite recent ones.


----------



## ska invita (Feb 25, 2021)

NoXion said:


> Good joke. Even if the Labour party became indistinguishable from the Tories, the Sun would still attack them.


not necessarily, they backed Blair, but it takes some serious getting on the knees to get the blessing


----------



## Orang Utan (Feb 25, 2021)

NoXion said:


> Good joke. Even if the Labour party became indistinguishable from the Tories, the Sun would still attack them.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Feb 25, 2021)

Seriously considering voting spunking cock next election at this rate.


----------



## NoXion (Feb 25, 2021)

1997 is recent?


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 25, 2021)

2005 is relatively recent.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 25, 2021)




----------



## Jeff Robinson (Feb 25, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> View attachment 256098



Could there be any more disturbing front cover than an infinite regress of a grinning Tony Blair opening the Sun with his face on the front?


----------



## ska invita (Feb 25, 2021)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Seriously considering voting spunking cock next election at this rate.



Be like Keir: Abstain


----------



## hitmouse (Feb 25, 2021)

Knotted said:


> Boris says "you vacillate, we vaccinate" and I want to cheer. When they're dooking it out in the commons it's hard not to see Boris - Boris!! - as the more serious politician. Everything Sir Keith says feels superficial, "playing the long game" etc.


Blimey, I never thought I'd live to see the day when the tories were attacking Labour for being petit-bourgeois vacillationists.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Feb 25, 2021)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Seriously considering voting spunking cock next election at this rate.



In many ways it's a relief to live in a solid blue constituency, that has been blue since it's inception, I'm under no illusions my vote matters a sparrows fart


----------



## Raheem (Feb 25, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Abstain


Guess that's the natural result of a spunking cock...


----------



## Raheem (Feb 25, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> In many ways it's a relief to live in a solid blue constituency, that has been blue since it's inception, I'm under no illusions my vote matters a sparrows fart


Dyk: Small birds such as sparrows don't fart. Their gastric gasses get absorbed into their bodies.


----------



## 19sixtysix (Feb 25, 2021)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Could there be any more disturbing front cover than an infinite regress of a grinning Tony Blair opening the Sun with his face on the front?


----------



## JimW (Feb 25, 2021)

butchersapron said:


> View attachment 256099


Radical old Guardian supporting the liberals in 1945


----------



## Artaxerxes (Feb 25, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Dyk: Small birds such as sparrows don't fart. Their gastric gasses get absorbed into their bodies.



The more you know.


So my vote doesn't exist


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Feb 25, 2021)

JimW said:


> Radical old Guardian supporting the liberals in 1945



Seeing the Neo-Nazi Daily Express backing ZanNu Liar Bore PF in 2001 is a grim reminder of that interview where Paxman asked Tony B Liar if he'd heard of any of the other of that nonce Desmond's publications, including 'thin and wriggly'.


----------



## Knotted (Feb 25, 2021)

butchersapron said:


> View attachment 256099



'Scuse my ignorance, but who or what are Pty Bal?


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 25, 2021)

Knotted said:


> 'Scuse my ignorance, but who or what are Pty Bal?


Party Balance. God knows what it means. Hung Parliament?


----------



## Knotted (Feb 25, 2021)

Thanks. That's amazing.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 25, 2021)

The Guardian- patron saint of lost causes


----------



## Brainaddict (Feb 25, 2021)

Jeff Robinson said:


> ZanNu Liar Bore PF
> Tony B Liar


I was rather hoping we'd seen the back of these. I think the use of these and similar terms may be the worst thing about the Blair era. Second worst after the war anyway.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Feb 25, 2021)

Brainaddict said:


> I was rather hoping we'd seen the back of these. I think the use of these and similar terms may be the worst thing about the Blair era. Second worst after the war anyway.



With respect, I think you’ve missed how genius those terms were. I know it looks like people just didn’t know how to spell Tony Blair or New Labour, but in actual fact, both are deliberate puns, and fiendishly clever ones I might add. 'Tony B Liar' is an anagram of "Tony Blair" and highlights his propensity to lie. 

As for ZaNuLiar Bore PF, well, you'd have to be familiar with the politics of the period. Let me explain. Around that time Zimbabwe was in the news quite a bit and its ruling party 'Zanu PF' was infamous for its authoritarianism and corruption. ZaNuLiar Bore PF cleverly compares New Labour to Zanu PF! We can leave aside the blatant racist undertones of the comparison for a minute and just appreciate it for the cutting edge satire that it was. 

We didn't have 'memes' back then, people had to get creative with word play to drive home important political messages.


----------



## steveseagull (Feb 25, 2021)

Another rare intervention from Tonty. We need to cut Starmer some slack for being a Tory.









						Tony Blair says 'cut Starmer some slack' over tax comments
					

Exclusive: former Labour leader says the public has no interest in ‘mouthing off’ as if times were normal




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## NoXion (Feb 25, 2021)

I mean Tony Blair does have point. Starmer isn't a war criminal like he is. He "merely" covered for war criminals.


----------



## steveseagull (Feb 25, 2021)

Thermo nuclear war!!! WOOHOO


----------



## Humberto (Feb 26, 2021)

He always looks like he is apologising.


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 26, 2021)

In a ‘I’m sorry you feel that way’ kind of way


----------



## BobDavis (Feb 26, 2021)

If Blair & also Mandelson are seriously getting involved in this then I would think there is some sort of plan along the lines of what brought the ‘97 Labour victory. It will be interesting to see if it works this time.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Feb 26, 2021)

Humberto said:


> He always looks like he is apologising.



He fucking should be.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 26, 2021)

a_chap said:


> View attachment 255523


He really put the “mad” into mad Tory cunt. He really was the loon who pushed to destroy all unionised industries in the UK and replace them (if at all) with making coffee and burgers to be bought on credit.
Should be dug up and hung.


----------



## Sprocket. (Feb 26, 2021)

TopCat said:


> He really put the “mad” into mad Tory cunt. He really was the loon who pushed to destroy all unionised industries in the UK and replace them (if at all) with making coffee and burgers to be bought on credit.
> Should be dug up and hung.


Thatcher’s mentor and inspiration. Nasty sack of shit the  ‘Mad Monk’ was.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 26, 2021)

Johnny Vodka said:


> He's an utterly useless cunt.  Who are you meant to vote for south of the border now?  (I'd probably vote Green.  _slowly backs away_  )


Éirígí, if they're standing. Def not Fianna Fail, Fine Gael or Labour.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 26, 2021)

Sprocket. said:


> Thatcher’s mentor and inspiration. Nasty sack of shit the  ‘Mad Monk’ was.


Worse than the mad monk in Dr Who


----------



## tendril (Feb 26, 2021)




----------



## andysays (Feb 26, 2021)

tendril said:


> View attachment 256201


If he was *really* patriotic he'd have a head-dress made from a stag, not a buffalo.


----------



## splonkydoo (Feb 26, 2021)

20 points ahead of... the Lib Dems!


----------



## two sheds (Feb 26, 2021)

22 points don't exaggerate


----------



## quiet guy (Feb 27, 2021)




----------



## danny la rouge (Feb 27, 2021)

Scottish Labour being shit.


----------



## keybored (Feb 27, 2021)

Help buy a spine for Keir Starmer
					

Please help Keir stand up to the Tories by contributing towards the cost of buying him a spine.




					www.crowdfunder.co.uk


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 28, 2021)

two sheds said:


> And Kieth has come out strongly against cannabis deregulation. Cunt, wonder if he drinks alcohol at all with all its attendant risks.



With a complexion like Kieth has, he's either a brandy &/or port man, has rosacea, or he's got quite appalling untreated hypertension.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 28, 2021)

ViolentPanda said:


> With a complexion like Kieth has, he's either a brandy &/or port man, has rosacea, or he's got quite appalling untreated hypertension.


I don't think he's interesting enough to be a brandy man


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 28, 2021)

killer b said:


> I dunno if that's true tbh. Internal party selections are not of interest to most of the electorate. Plenty of shit candidates parachuted into Liverpool constituencies in the past - cf. Luciana Berger, Frank Field. Sure there's more but those two spring to mind.
> 
> I doubt the conditions exist right now for an independent socialist to run and win in Liverpool.



Field is Birkenhead, not Liverpool. Neither Liverpudlians or the woollybacks would thank you for confusing the two.


----------



## two sheds (Mar 1, 2021)

He's emailed me personally in person 



> Dear Arthur
> 
> I hope that you are keeping safe and well during this challenging time for our country.
> 
> ...



Knowing me as I do, I have to say they're getting desperate


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Mar 1, 2021)

two sheds said:


> He's emailed me personally in person



did you get sent your own union jack with it?


----------



## two sheds (Mar 1, 2021)

No  

You've taken the gloss off it now


----------



## teqniq (Mar 1, 2021)

Oh dear.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 1, 2021)

two sheds said:


> He's emailed me personally in person


you are catarella and i claim my £5


----------



## kabbes (Mar 1, 2021)

That’s amazing.

Who is it that thinks Sur Kieth is doing a good job?


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Mar 1, 2021)

kabbes said:


> That’s amazing.
> 
> Who is it that thinks Sur Kieth is doing a good job?



Lib Dems I think.


----------



## two sheds (Mar 1, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> you are catarella and i claim my £5


----------



## two sheds (Mar 1, 2021)

Haven't seen any new Montelbano for ages


----------



## kabbes (Mar 1, 2021)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Lib Dems I think.


Objection.  These creatures have never been proven to actually exist.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 1, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Haven't seen any new Montelbano for ages


if you look at the inspector montalbano wiki there's a 15th series this year. but not if you look at List of Inspector Montalbano episodes - Wikipedia. they're all available via the bbc iplayer (except the possible fifteenth series)


----------



## two sheds (Mar 1, 2021)

... goes off to check 

Eta: seen all of them I think - at least the 36 episodes on iPlayer but good to watch them again I think  Ironically it and Machair are the only things I actually watch without doing other stuff because of the subtitles.


----------



## hitmouse (Mar 1, 2021)

teqniq said:


> Oh dear.



Can we get "any other leader would be 20 points ahead by now" added as a smilie to save people the trouble of typing it out every time?


----------



## ska invita (Mar 2, 2021)

More suppression of democracy - this time in Streatham. 








						Labour members must insist on the right to organise our own meetings – LabourList
					

The way that Jackie Weaver was treated in Handforth was awful. And while I don’t know whether she actually did have the authority, this wasn’t…




					labourlist.org


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 2, 2021)

kabbes said:


> That’s amazing.
> 
> Who is it that thinks Sur Kieth is doing a good job?



Depends what you think his job is. If it's 'tory plant' then he could hardly have done better.


----------



## ska invita (Mar 2, 2021)

I dont know how my Twitter feed has just become Labour Party news and gossip, but it has.

The state of this chump:



I had to read that about 5 times before I realised what he was saying, its that upsidedown from reality


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 2, 2021)

New shortlist for Liverpool Mayor- two candidates Anthony Lavelle who signed a petition of 600 councillors for Corbyn to go and Joanne Anderson an equalities/diversity consultant elected as cllr in 2019.


----------



## ska invita (Mar 2, 2021)

Sounds like there's a book on Starmer coming by Oliver Eagleton, full of anecdotes about him being forensic:














						Keir Starmer is a Long-Time Servant of the British Security State | Novara Media
					

Labour under Keir Starmer has taken a troubling flag-waving turn. But while his patriot act may in part be driven by political expediency, Starmer’s loyalty to the British security state has historically been strikingly consistent, writes Oliver Eagleton.




					novaramedia.com


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 2, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> New shortlist for Liverpool Mayor- two candidates Anthony Lavelle who signed a petition of 600 councillors for Corbyn to go and Joanne Anderson an equalities/diversity consultant elected as cllr in 2019.


----------



## splonkydoo (Mar 2, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Sounds like there's a book on Starmer coming by Oliver Eagleton, full of anecdotes about him being forensic:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




That article is worth a read. I didn't think I could dislike the man any more than I already do..


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 2, 2021)

ska invita said:


> More suppression of democracy - this time in Streatham.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



London region hate the way Streatham CLP not only went OMOV, but that doing so sent Chuka scurrying, as he knew he might be slated for de-selection. They're also unhappy that the selection for a new MP went MASSIVELY in Bell's favour, with Marcia Cameron & Jennifer Brathwaite - both loyal Lambeth stooges cllrs - barely got a 20th of the number of votes Bell did, between them. Perhaps they should have borne in mind that SCLP members knew them by both deed & reputation.


----------



## strung out (Mar 3, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> New shortlist for Liverpool Mayor- two candidates Anthony Lavelle who signed a petition of 600 councillors for Corbyn to go and Joanne Anderson an equalities/diversity consultant elected as cllr in 2019.


Of course, who better to replace corrupt former mayor Joe Anderson, than the previously unknown, newly elected councillor 'Jo Anderson'?


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Mar 3, 2021)

Revisionist former Labour Minister Alan Johnson:



> The Labour party had spent most of the previous two decades in an internal struggle to free ourselves of the accusation that we had no interest in how wealth was generated, only how it was distributed. As George W Bush is believed to have said about the French, we had no word for entrepreneur.



Imagine being in a party called 'Labour' and still thinking wealth is generated by 'entrepreneurs'. Cunts. 









						Keir Starmer is right to oppose the corporation tax increase | Alan Johnson
					

With enterprises struggling, the Conservatives have lost their trust. Labour can now be the party of business, says the former home secretary Alan Johnson




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## magneze (Mar 3, 2021)

"Smart politics".


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Mar 3, 2021)

Allow Mi5 to torture, rape and murder with impunity - abstain!

Allow British soldiers abroad to torture, rape and murder with impunity - abstain!

Raise corporation tax - steady on, there are red lines that can't be crossed.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 3, 2021)




----------



## hitmouse (Mar 3, 2021)

I'm sure there's probably some perfectly sensible and dull explanation as to why Paul Mason has "normal" under his name, but I enjoy how it feels like a desperately unconvincing custom title or something.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 3, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> I'm sure there's probably some perfectly sensible and dull explanation as to why Paul Mason has "normal" under his name, but I enjoy how it feels like a desperately unconvincing custom title or something.


*Blue tick* seems appropriate, too.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Mar 3, 2021)

This is Starmer's banner on twitter. Yeah mate, the vaccine is being rolled out already. Good union jack tho


----------



## Knotted (Mar 3, 2021)

That just looks like he's trying to take credit for it. He really makes my skin crawl.


----------



## Thaw (Mar 3, 2021)

Jeff Robinson said:


> This is Starmer's banner on twitter. Yeah mate, the vaccine is being rolled out already. Good union jack tho



Why just Britain? Does he not want to vaccinate NI too?


----------



## belboid (Mar 3, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> View attachment 257130




He is getting very keen on  describing anyone who disagrees with him as tankies


----------



## ska invita (Mar 3, 2021)

Knotted said:


> That just looks like he's trying to take credit for it. He really makes my skin crawl.


the sad joke is the tories are listening to the echoes of corbyn way more than they are to sir starmer


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 3, 2021)

ska invita said:


> the sad joke is the tories are listening to the echoes of corbyn way more than they are to sir starmer



McDonnell rather than Corbyn  surely?


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Mar 3, 2021)




----------



## TopCat (Mar 3, 2021)

Starter has nothing other than calling for more, earlier.


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 3, 2021)

Former head of IPPR (so hardly a radical) 


> Rishi Sunak is no George Osborne: this was not an austerity budget. The chancellor promised to keep spending by extending the furlough scheme to the end of September and expanding support for the newly self-employed, alongside a package of support for businesses including grants, cheap loans, and tax relief. Perhaps most significantly, Sunak announced a new super-deduction for business investment over the next two years, worth some £25bn.
> 
> The chancellor has been prepared to continue the colossal expansion in government spending, and to challenge his own party by setting out future tax rises on big business with a rise in corporation tax from 19% to 25% in two years’ time. The contrast with the timid demands set out in Keir Starmer’s speech last month – a recovery bond, retaining the £20 uplift in universal credit (which the chancellor promised to do, albeit temporarily), and no increases in council tax – was striking.


----------



## chilango (Mar 3, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Starmer has nothing other than calling timidly suggesting more less, earlier, at some point in the future, if that's ok?


ffy


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Mar 3, 2021)

chilango said:


> ffy



or more of less

or less of more

it depends what the question is and which focus group he has asked most recently


----------



## hitmouse (Mar 3, 2021)

Jeff Robinson said:


> View attachment 257148
> 
> This is Starmer's banner on twitter. Yeah mate, the vaccine is being rolled out already. Good union jack tho


I might be reading too much into this, but do you reckon that flag is the result of him sitting down with his consultants, going "how can I effectively reach out to my target audience of nationalist flag-shaggers, while also generating an sense of authentic values alignment with them mad commie Corbyn cultists who won't stop shouting at me? I know, a union jack that's also a red flag, what more could anyone possibly ask for?"


----------



## RedRedRose (Mar 4, 2021)

Are people watching Owen's channel? Pretty damning on Keir and co.


----------



## TopCat (Mar 4, 2021)

A toothless opposition. No idea what they stand for.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 4, 2021)

TopCat said:


> A toothless opposition. No idea what they stand for.


Saw a graph the other day  of a survey of 1000 or so Labour supporters 80% had no idea what their economic policy was


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 4, 2021)

TopCat said:


> A toothless opposition. No idea what they stand for.



They stand for a future, that is different from the past. So they're in favour of entropy and causality, two of the most fundamental tenets of creation without which even time itself could not meaningfully be said to exist, but they can't be drawn on anything more specific than that.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Mar 4, 2021)

He was beaten by "don't know" on a YouGov poll recently.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 4, 2021)

FridgeMagnet said:


> He was beaten by "don't know" on a YouGov poll recently.




Don't Know does have a less irritating voice tbf.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Mar 4, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Saw a graph the other day  of a survey of 1000 or so Labour supporters 80% had no idea what their economic policy was



it's whatever the tories have said this week only better and with more union jacks...


----------



## brogdale (Mar 4, 2021)

Has Starmer called for the NHS pay deal to be just 0.5% yet?


----------



## andysays (Mar 5, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Has Starmer called for the NHS pay deal to be just 0.5% yet?


Amazingly, he's actually calling for it to be more than 1%


----------



## TopCat (Mar 5, 2021)

andysays said:


> Amazingly, he's actually calling for it to be more than 1%


The big offer. Vote labour.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 5, 2021)

Without wanting to reopen the debate about how class is recorded YouGov today shows Cons leading Labour 52-27 in the CD2E category


----------



## brogdale (Mar 5, 2021)

Difficult to see completely, but if that London Lab/Con lead is only 10% (with the Greens mopping up 8%) that shows how shabby their polling is atm.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 5, 2021)

Trying to work out what Labour stand for is like trying to pin the tail on a donkey. Trouble is there's no donkey and no tail.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 5, 2021)

Wilf said:


> Trying to work out what Labour stand for is like trying to pin the tail on a donkey. Trouble is there's no donkey and no tail.


Exhibit A:



Who and how much?


----------



## kabbes (Mar 5, 2021)

The Man Who(se policies) Wasn’t There


----------



## Wilf (Mar 5, 2021)

Aside from a diplomatic illness, Labour have no way out of no way out of starmer leading them.  He's not going to go of his own accord and they would need at least a couple of rounds of awful local elections before the whispering starts.  The tory lead amongst working class voters is shocking. The class and age profile of the vote is still something like it was in 2017, but with Labour's share shoved right down (though to be fair I couldn't imagine a Glastonbury crown chanting 'oh Keir Staaarmer - thank fuck).


----------



## chilango (Mar 5, 2021)

Wilf said:


> Aside from a diplomatic illness, Labour have no way out of no way out of starmer leading them.  He's not going to go of his own accord and they would need at least a couple of rounds of awful local elections before the whispering starts.  The tory lead amongst working class voters is shocking. The class and age profile of the vote is still something like it was in 2017, but with Labour's share shoved right down (though to be fair I couldn't imagine a Glastonbury crown chanting 'oh Keir Staaarmer - thank fuck).



Let's see how the locals go. Losing heavily in Wales and the North might force their hand.

Perhaps they're being really clever though and lulling everyone into a false sense of mediocrity before unleashing some Corbynite wunderkind just before the next GE and catching the media sleeping? Right?

Nah. You're right. They're just shit.


----------



## vanya (Mar 5, 2021)

Why Keir Starmer and his strategy are spectacularly useless









						The Myth of the Vaccine Bounce
					

If you haven't seen the latest YouGov  poll, it makes for grim reading. 45% for the Tories versus 32% for Labour doesn't look too clever. ...




					averypublicsociologist.blogspot.com
				






> If you haven't seen the latest YouGov poll, it makes for grim reading. 45% for the Tories versus 32% for Labour doesn't look too clever. For information, going back to the Jeremy Corbyn era YouGov didn't post a polling deficit of 13 points or more until mid-October 2016. In other words, for Labour to perform this badly it had to go through a bruising civil war, a failed coup and leadership contest, and another round of civil war. Events we have not witnessed in the 11 months since Keir Starmer ascended to the party's leadership.
> 
> Thanks to the _NHS's_ success with the vaccine roll out, pollsters and pundits have talked up the possibility of a Tory bounce for about a fortnight. And consulting recent surveys, the prediction has come to fruition. The Tories are up again and accelerating away from Labour, so this much is true. But when we come to _the myth_ of the vaccine bounce, we're talking about the very political uses to which this trope is being put by Keir Starmer's supporters.
> 
> ...


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Mar 5, 2021)

as ever, i wonder what the (unreported) polling is for don't know / won't vote / bollocks to the lot of them / spunking cock / any combination of these?

i can imagine a higher than usual percentage for SC at the moment and hard to imagine i'm the only one contemplating that as the only credible option for the local elections - i've only spoiled ballot once and that was for the ludicrous police commissioner thing


----------



## ska invita (Mar 5, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Who and how much?


and do you support a nurses strike?

he thinks hes on sure ground here, but i bet he can fuck it up yet


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 5, 2021)

vanya said:


> Why Keir Starmer and his strategy are spectacularly useless





> In 2019 Labour lost around 300,000 voters to the Tories which, combined with the Brexit Party also drawing in Labour leave voters, helped pave way for the cataclysm. The very people Keir's leadership is now (unsuccessfully) chasing. Yet no one discusses the 1.6m votes Labour bled to the LibDems and the Greens, nor the 600,000 or so who didn't turn out


This bit come dangerously close to Mason's reading. It ignores the fact that there is only a single Lab-LD marginal, Sheffield Hallam (and that remained Labour in 2019) and no LD-Lab marginals.

The simply fact is that it is the Lab-Con vote that decides elections in the UK. Now if you are going to argue that it is worth giving up seats for votes fine then why are you focusing on Labours electoral performance?


----------



## belboid (Mar 5, 2021)

redsquirrel said:


> This bit come dangerously close to Mason's reading. It ignores the fact that there is only a single Lab-LD marginal, Sheffield Hallam (and that remained Labour in 2019) and no LD-Lab marginals.
> 
> The simply fact is that it is the Lab-Con vote that decides elections in the UK. Now if you are going to argue that it is worth giving up seats for votes fine then why are you focusing on Labours electoral performance?


It’s not just about liblab marginals tho, if the scum take 3000 votes per seat that is plenty enough to tip a few dozen seats


----------



## chilango (Mar 5, 2021)

belboid said:


> It’s not just about liblab marginals tho, if the scum take 3000 votes per seat that is plenty enough to tip a few dozen seats



When you say "the scum" it's be helpful if you specified which variety you mean...


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 5, 2021)

belboid said:


> It’s not just about liblab marginals tho, if the scum take 3000 votes per seat that is plenty enough to tip a few dozen seats


But that was not responsible for the major loses of Labour. The big swings to LDs were in seats that didn't matter - either because they are safe Labour or safe Con. OK there are a few that LD votes might count but where is the evidence that those LD voters would ever back a left-wing LP? The LD strategy has been, and continues to be, to target socially liberal Tories.


----------



## agricola (Mar 5, 2021)

redsquirrel said:


> This bit come dangerously close to Mason's reading. It ignores the fact that there is only a single Lab-LD marginal, Sheffield Hallam (and that remained Labour in 2019) and no LD-Lab marginals.
> 
> The simply fact is that it is the Lab-Con vote that decides elections in the UK. Now if you are going to argue that it is worth giving up seats for votes fine then why are you focusing on Labours electoral performance?



TBF is that what they are saying there?  I read it as there are 2.2 million votes that Labour lost in 2019 that should be looked at, rather than just the 300,000 Lab-Tory ones (as they accuse Starmer of focusing on).


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 5, 2021)

Here's the top 10 Labour targets
Bury North - ok if all LD votes went Lab they would have kept it, but it was the 4000 votes they lost to non-voters (most likely leave voters) that cost them the seat not the 600 odd to the LDs
Kensington - OK this one probably was decided by the yellow filth
Bury South - same situation as Bury North
Bolton NE - Again collapse in Lab vote with only a very minor increase in LD
High Peak - barely any increase in the LD vote at all
Gedling - another constituency where the Con vote didn't change much, the LD vote had a minor increase and the Lab vote collapsed
Heywood and Middleton - Brexit Party finishing ahead of piss yellows
Blyth Vally - as above and with the LDs showing a whole +0.68% increase in their vote!
Stoke-on_trent Central - BP coming ahead of LDs
Chipping Barnet - another one where the LD vote could be a factor, but it goes back to what I said about that socially liberal conservative vote, this seat has been Tory for decades

so 2 out of 10 where LD votes were a factor.

EDIT If you do the next 10, then you only add Chingford and Woodford Green for 3 from 20.


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 5, 2021)

Bury south could have been somewhere that was actually swung by Labour antisemtism - was only 400 odd votes iirc


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Mar 5, 2021)

chilango said:


> When you say "the scum" it's be helpful if you specified which variety you mean...



the scum, not to be confused with the vermin


----------



## Knotted (Mar 6, 2021)

redsquirrel said:


> This bit come dangerously close to Mason's reading. It ignores the fact that there is only a single Lab-LD marginal, Sheffield Hallam (and that remained Labour in 2019) and no LD-Lab marginals.
> 
> The simply fact is that it is the Lab-Con vote that decides elections in the UK. Now if you are going to argue that it is worth giving up seats for votes fine then why are you focusing on Labours electoral performance?



Huh? You can lose a seat to the Tories by having your vote bleed to the Lib Dems (or Greens or nats).


----------



## andysays (Mar 6, 2021)

chilango said:


> When you say "the scum" it's be helpful if you specified which variety you mean...


In the context of this thread, my first thought was he was talking about Labour, and my next was it's unlikely to see them getting that many new votes anywhere currently...


----------



## mauvais (Mar 6, 2021)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Bury south could have been somewhere that was actually swung by Labour antisemtism - was only 400 odd votes iirc


Correct on both counts.


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 6, 2021)

Knotted said:


> Huh? You can lose a seat to the Tories by having your vote bleed to the Lib Dems (or Greens or nats).


You can but how many seats did this cost Labour? Kensington is one example but it is a rare case. The loss of votes to LDs and Greens was not the reason the LP lost 60 seats in 2019. As much as 'progressives' try to pretend otherwise the result of the 2019 was the loss of Labour seats in areas where there had been a significant leave vote. And likewise the result of the next GE election will come down to Labour-Tory marginals, where typically the LD vote is largely irrelevant.


----------



## Knotted (Mar 6, 2021)

redsquirrel said:


> You can but how many seats did this cost Labour? Kensington is one example but it is a rare case. The loss of votes to LDs and Greens was not the reason the LP lost 60 seats in 2019. As much as 'progressives' try to pretend otherwise the result of the 2019 was the loss of Labour seats in areas where there had been a significant leave vote. And likewise the result of the next GE election will come down to Labour-Tory marginals, where typically the LD vote is largely irrelevant.



It's not obvious how the breakdown works even in individual constituencies where Labour votes might be going to the Lib Dems while Lib Dem votes go to the Tories instead of votes going straight to the Tories. You can't tell just be looking at the raw results. What you are doing is guess work. The same goes for those who think Labour needed to hold onto it's progressive/remain voters at the expense of it's more socially conservative/economically radical voters. It's an exercise in making the data fit your assumptions/political orientation.

There isn't *a* reason why Labour lost 60 seats in 2019. There are lots of reasons. It's plural not singular. They lost leave inclined voters and they lost remain inclined voters. They needed to keep both and expand on the support they had, not pick a side and work out what section of their support was expendable. They shouldn't have backed a second referendum because doing so was unprincipled and undemocratic, I couldn't care a less whether it lost them votes or gained them votes. The LP has to believe in itself to win anything - the same goes for the broader left.

What really disappoints me about all this is that we are still discussing the 2019 election as if it is still in any way relevant. There is nothing going on with Labour now in 2021, there is now nothing to fix. Any socialist revival in whatever form will be built on a coalition of forces with similar social routes to that of Labour's in 2017 except it won't be shaped by the contours of the first past the post system because if it means business, it won't be purely electoral. The working class is now not just diverse but actively politically polarised with Brexit as the main wedge used to divide us. The task is to overcome that polarisation not to find your favourite working class subgroup and pretend that it's the be all and end all. The endless discussion about Brexit and the endless stream of suggestions for quick fixes to Labour's electoral wows are symptoms of working class fragmentation as reflected in the left.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 6, 2021)

Knotted said:


> It's not obvious how the breakdown works even in individual constituencies where Labour votes might be going to the Lib Dems while Lib Dem votes go to the Tories instead of votes going straight to the Tories. You can't tell just be looking at the raw results. What you are doing is guess work. The same goes for those who think Labour needed to hold onto it's progressive/remain voters at the expense of it's more socially conservative/economically radical voters. It's an exercise in making the data fit your assumptions/political orientation.
> 
> There isn't *a* reason why Labour lost 60 seats in 2019. There are lots of reasons. It's plural not singular. They lost leave inclined voters and they lost remain inclined voters. They needed to keep both and expand on the support they had, not pick a side and work out what section of their support was expendable. They shouldn't have backed a second referendum because doing so was unprincipled and undemocratic, I couldn't care a less whether it lost them votes or gained them votes. The LP has to believe in itself to win anything - the same goes for the broader left.
> 
> What really disappoints me about all this is that we are still discussing the 2019 election as if it is still in any way relevant. There is nothing going on with Labour now in 2021, there is now nothing to fix. Any socialist revival in whatever form will be built on a coalition of forces with similar social routes to that of Labour's in 2017 except it won't be shaped by the contours of the first past the post system because if it means business, it won't be purely electoral. The working class is now not just diverse but actively politically polarised with Brexit as the main wedge used to divide us. The task is to overcome that polarisation not to find your favourite working class subgroup and pretend that it's the be all and end all. The endless discussion about Brexit and the endless stream of suggestions for quick fixes to Labour's electoral wows are symptoms of working class fragmentation as reflected in the left.


the only thing the labour party believes in is itself.


----------



## two sheds (Mar 9, 2021)

I usually get to this point in a ‘discussion’ and think fuckit I can’t be bothered but ...



redsquirrel said:


> And yet you continue to refuse to question _why_ those conditions came about.



Aaaaaand you start again by suggesting I’m discussing dishonestly. You’ve been doing this for nearly two years now, and it’s a lie. I say a lie rather than a mistake because you’ve seen the post right at the beginning of our ‘discussions’ where I clearly considered it. Butchersapron gave me a reasoned response as to why the conditions were unique (high growth rates during the PWSC). I said I would study his post and did, and came back with a discussion backed by graph suggesting that wasn’t so.

Jeremy Corbyn's time is up

He’s normally right on things like this and I was actually expecting him to reply pointing out where I was wrong, but I was certainly expecting someone to address the points I made. If you’d have actually been interested in a discussion, this is where you’d have started. Instead you picked on one sentence and then started the repeated mantra “you refuse to consider”.

There’s also at a first glance for example

Jeremy Corbyn's time is up
Jeremy Corbyn's time is up
Jeremy Corbyn's time is up

You may not agree with what I said but to say I’ve not considered it (and why it collapsed) is a lie. Why do you keep doing this? Why can you not discuss as a fucking human being without calling people scum and treating them with contempt?

Again, I made a simple point in response to Smokeandsteam‘s “Can you give an example of where the approach you are talking about has actually worked? Or come close to working? ”. The answer to that is clearly the PWSC.

You ignore that and are now back into aggressively and repeatedly demanding I make your argument for you (a tactic of yours). That’s not how honest discussions work. If you want to talk about _why_ the conditions came about then talk about it. I’m not stopping you and if I agree I’ll tell you and if I don’t I’ll disagree. Like I did with Butchersapron.

So, aside from the political will of an elected government to recognize the British peoples’ fight against fascism, you tell me _why _the conditions came about? Why aren’t they possible now when they were possible in a country that had been half destroyed by war?



> As I've pointed out to you before the Keynesian model existed across countries and under both centre-right and centre-left governments.  Was the situation for workers better in many ways? Of course it was, that is not a point that is being contested. But to call it socialist is not just a mistake in terminology it shows a misunderstanding of what was actually happening.



You’re again contemptuously dismissing something that I’ve not actually said. I didn’t call the PWSC socialist or even a move to socialism. I said that the elements of full employment from nationalizing the energy, water supply and communications industries (the ‘means of production’, yes?) along with free healthcare, unemployment benefits, free education and subsidized housing are “socialist results” (particularly compared to what was there before WWII and what we have now for that matter). I

Whenever I mention the PWSC you jump in and demand that the conversation move away from the PWSC itself and its benefits for working people. Fine that it was an attempt to manage capitalism rather than establish some socialist utopia. Of course it was a mixed economy and the situation in the country wasn’t perfect and there were great inequalities. And yes once the PWSC had been established it was carried forward by both labour and tory governments. That was the nature of it. So what? The point I made was that it was successful for a good 25 years. Why can’t you just accept that?

By return to PWSC-like policies I mean reinvest in the NHS (reverse privatization, reopen and invest in hospitals, improve wages for nurses etc), build council houses (properly energy efficient this time, and not on green belt), reintroduce student grants and wipe out existing student debts, introduce rent controls to greatly reduce rents, renationalize where possible the essential industries (rail, water, electricity ...) and aim for full employment again by that and by investing in new industries. Fund it by taking from those who can afford it like stopping tax evasion and unethical avoidance, and windfall tax for the coronavirus profiteers.

And note I’m not saying the result will be as successful as before, just that they are the right thing to do. I asked you before and you’ve repeatedly ignored the question: “What else should a government do other than alleviate poverty, invest in the country and workforce, and improve healthcare and travel and essential utility infrastructure? ” You really disagree with this? I’m not saying it will lead to some great socialist society, I’m saying it will be a fuck of a sight better than what we have now.

This is what _you_ repeatedly refuse to discuss, along with what is the alternative. You snipped that from my last reply, too. You clearly don’t have a practical alternative, which is why you’re silent on it. I’m happy for people to work for a socialist revolution – but what should we do in the meantime? Your answer is to leave the tories to it. You’ve repeatedly said labour’s approach is “at least we’re not the tories”. If that’s true then your approach is “let the tories run riot”.

These PWSC-like measures seem really popular within the population. Is anyone except for the right wing against them? So why would they not have worked at the last election, and what do you mean by they won’t work? Just repeating “conditions have changed” is a bollocks argument really isn’t it.



> Callaghan was the first monetarist PM in the UK. It was under a Labour government that _In Place of Strife_ written. Carter proceeded Reagan in making reduction of the debt a key policy.
> 
> And look at things outside the US/UK. What measures did the Mitterand take during his period in office? Who introduced "mini-jobs" to Germany? What were the policies of the Craxi government? When did privatisations really start in Australia?
> 
> By focussing on the actions of Thatcher and Reagan (or Attlee) you are missing _why_ there a move to neo-liberalism across north american, western europe and Aus/NZ and (again) under both centre-left and centre-right governments. Because the "wrong" parties were elected? Because of the media? Unions had had plenty of hostile rightwing press before. Was the media more pro-union during the earlier decades of the 20th century? I'll admit I've not done/seen a systematic comparison but I doubt it.



Again, you’re dismissing something that I’ve not actually said. I made a simple throw-away remark that Thatcher came in with a hammer to smash the PWSC. I was clearly referring only to the UK, and if I’d said that she _on her own_ was responsible you’d have a point but I didn’t did I? Because that would be a stupid thing to say. And you add on a string of questions which if I don’t answer you’ll doubtless complain I’ve dishonestly refused to consider.

Of course Thatcher took a hammer to the PWSC. She and her governments set about privatizing the nationalized industries, forcing up unemployment to 3 million which forced down wages and helped to break the unions. They forced the sell-off of council houses with councils not being allowed to rebuild so helping to force up rents to the insane levels we have now. She froze grants and introduced student loans that now hang over people for years. She consistently underfunded the NHS and introduced the review that led to NHS competition. And yes both tory and labour governments took their own hammers both before and since – so what? They’ve all bought into the neoconservative model.



> So why did was it possible for the state and capital to accede to labours demands in 45 that it was not in 75?



Again, you’re demanding that I make your argument for you. You tell me and I’ll let you know if I agree. And perhaps tell me why it was an elected government that led to such great improvements in conditions for the working class and not revolution?


----------



## two sheds (Mar 9, 2021)

Incidentally, you might want to clarify your ludicrous statement during that discussion two years ago that “We currently have "full employment”. It was another of your attempts to minimize the huge PWSC achievement _of an elected government_ achieving stable 0 to 4% unemployment for 25+ years – hugely different to any period before or after, with the figure mainly explained by unemployed people taking a break to look for another job. Think about that, and how different it is from today's situation with hundreds of people sometimes applying for one poorly paid job. (On reflection, too, I’d have thought full employment would have also contributed to high growth rates that Butchers suggested were unique to the PWSC. )

Thatcher (remember her? she took a hammer to the PWSC) moved people off unemployment onto invalidity benefit. She wanted to con people – succeeded with you, clearly – that there was full employment. That was the major factor in being able to push down pay and conditions in Britain.

I first got interested in the PWSC because of the full employment – that seems to me to be one of the main measures that show how well a political system is working. I went to the official figures and drew this graph using a statistical analysis that separates out four different periods.



I drew this graph several years ago showing true levels of unemployment and it ends in 2009 but there’s a graph from Beatty-TheRealLevelOfUnemployment2017(VoR) that shows later but similar figures. 



See? _Nothing like_ full employment. They’re not even the same quality jobs now – instead of the steady secure jobs with sick pay and pension of the PWSC we’ve got the insecure short-term contracts and casual work that keep people in fear of losing their jobs or asking for a pay rise.

With your union background I’m astounded you don’t know this.


*Patronizing tone © redsquirrel


----------



## a_chap (Mar 9, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Incidentally, you might want to clarify your ludicrous statement during that discussion two years ago that...



I love Urban


----------



## two sheds (Mar 9, 2021)

a_chap said:


> I love Urban


 but more recent than two ten/eleven-year old posts and a six-year old post defending calling a long-term poster 'scum'


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 10, 2021)

two sheds said:


> By return to PWSC-like policies I mean reinvest in the NHS (reverse privatization, reopen and invest in hospitals, improve wages for nurses etc), build council houses (properly energy efficient this time, and not on green belt), reintroduce student grants and wipe out existing student debts, introduce rent controls to greatly reduce rents, renationalize where possible the essential industries (rail, water, electricity ...) and aim for full employment again by that and by investing in new industries. Fund it by taking from those who can afford it like stopping tax evasion and unethical avoidance, and windfall tax for the coronavirus profiteers.



All of which are good things, and (as you say) are popular with many people. But that has been the case for many years, most people want greater economic democracy but we’ve had ~40 years of neoliberalism. So if one wants to see measures similar to the above come about then surely it is important to understand _why_ there was a move to Keynesian economics in the mid-part of the century, and then _why_ there was move away from it.  

Your core of your argument was, and judging from your recent pasts continues to be, that the Labour (or centre-left) government brought about what you are calling the post-war social contract. And that the election of new Labour (or more generally social democratic) government could bring about another change in capitalism.

But there are fundamental flaws in this argument. It was not only the UK that saw a shift to Keynesian policies in 1945, and then a move to neoliberalism in the late 70s. After some initial conflicts there was political consensus established in both periods. So surely the fact that similar shifts in the nature of capital were seen across different nations, implemented by parties across the political spectrum indicate to you that the nature of the government cannot be the key factor in the changes to the capitalist system? 

That is why I, and others, keep asking you to identify what factors, _the material basis that_, led to the change in capitalism during/after the war (or any change in capitalism for that matter). So that you review your argument and respond to the incoherencies people have pointed out in it.

If one is a socialist then the answer why the capitalist system changes is fundamentally down to one thing - class - the interaction between labour, capital and the state. And an explanation that considers the relatives strengths and actions of labour, capital and the state does explain both the two recent shifts in capital.

Post-war you have a strong labour movement, an expanded government that has become increasingly in partnership with capital (and some of the “official” organs of labour). So crucially labour can demand improved conditions, and capital can accede to them while still seeing high rates of growth.

Then a variety of factors meant that as the growth rates dropped capital began a direct assault on labour to try and maximise growth. (This is a brief summary, post here gives a fuller account and butchersapron  is absolutely correct about the rates of growth - see Piketty _Capital_ and/or Ha-Joon _Chang Economics: A Users Guides_ just for two, both who are sympathetic to your social democratic position).

So your calls for a new post-war social contract have been criticised, not because such things would be undesirable but because the conditions of labour, capital and the state that brought the PWSC into existence are totally different today. (And in fact the conditions that resulted in the post-war period only existed for a short period of time). If social democratic politics are to return they will have to return in a different form to that they took in the post-war period.

None of this is new, various people on the boards have tried to get you to engage with it, but despite your protestation you don’t. You simply insist that criticism of your position equals some sort of criticism of the post-war social contract, or support for Tories.


----------



## two sheds (Mar 10, 2021)

redsquirrel said:


> None of this is new, various people on the boards have tried to get you to engage with it, but despite your protestation you don’t. You simply insist that criticism of your position equals some sort of criticism of the post-war social contract, or support for Tories.


You were doing so well up to then, but that is bollocks, and another lie. I am very interested in the conditions which led to the PWSC, and the reasons it failed. The objections I have are to your personal insults - and lies - that I've not engaged with it. 

You've actually given some reasons in that post that I'll take a look at, but this is how we do discussions. You lay out your argument and I'll respond to it. You don't aggressively demand that I make your argument for you, because that is dishonest.


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 10, 2021)

two sheds said:


> You were doing so well up to then, but that is bollocks, and another lie.





two sheds said:


> Your answer is to leave the tories to it. You’ve repeatedly said labour’s approach is “at least we’re not the tories”. If that’s true then your approach is “let the tories run riot”.


4 posts apart


----------



## two sheds (Mar 10, 2021)

redsquirrel said:


> 4 posts apart



Bollocks, you're just inventing stuff again. My statement is nothing to do with "any criticism of your position equals some sort of criticism of the post-war social contract, or support for Tories." It refers to you not voting to try to get the tories out of power and telling people it's no use trying to get the tories out of power. That's what I mean by your support for tories.

It's a trade of insults - if you insult people you're going to get insults back. The clue is in the first half of my statement "You’ve repeatedly said labour’s approach is “at least we’re not the tories”. See, nothing to do with criticism of the PWSC, nomatter how many posts apart it was.

Just started on the Piketty thread by the way. So you see I will study stuff if it's suggested rather respond to someone who aggressively demands I make their argument for them. I just don't accept things because you insist that they're true.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 10, 2021)

redsquirrel said:


> 4 posts apart


24 posts from tulsa


----------



## TopCat (Mar 10, 2021)

I sort of get both of their viewpoints.

Just would be more pithy and easier to read if shorter and had more running dogs, lackey, lickspittle, craven apologist, gulag excuser type abuse.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 10, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I sort of get both of their viewpoints.
> 
> Just would be more pithy and easier to read if shorter and had more running dogs, lackey, lickspittle, craven apologist, gulag excuser type abuse.


not to mention windbag


----------



## TopCat (Mar 10, 2021)

Dustbin of history


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 10, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Dustbin of history


School of falsification


----------



## TopCat (Mar 10, 2021)

I can’t think of the insults the right of the LP shout at the general left apart from the obvs loony leftie.
Help me someone.


----------



## TopCat (Mar 10, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> School of falsification


That’s got to be belboid quote?


----------



## two sheds (Mar 10, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Bollocks, you're just inventing stuff again. My statement is nothing to do with "any criticism of your position equals some sort of criticism of the post-war social contract, or support for Tories." It refers to you not voting to try to get the tories out of power and telling people it's no use trying to get the tories out of power. That's what I mean by your support for tories.
> 
> It's a trade of insults - if you insult people you're going to get insults back. The clue is in the first half of my statement "You’ve repeatedly said labour’s approach is “at least we’re not the tories”. See, nothing to do with criticism of the PWSC, nomatter how many posts apart it was.
> 
> Just started on the Piketty thread by the way. So you see I will study stuff if it's suggested rather respond to someone who aggressively demands I make their argument for them. I just don't accept things because you insist that they're true.



Eta: I've got a lot of respect for people who are revolutionary socialists but who held their noses and voted labour anyway to try to get rid of the tories because they realize what utter evil shits they are to be in power.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 10, 2021)

TopCat said:


> That’s got to be belboid quote?


Strangely he's never used the phrase


----------



## TopCat (Mar 10, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Eta: I've got a lot of respect for people who are revolutionary socialists but who held their noses and voted labour anyway to try to get rid of the tories because they realize what utter evil shits they are to be in power.


Many did so including me. Not sure I held my nose either. The one time it worked we got the Iraqi war.


----------



## TopCat (Mar 10, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Strangely he's never used the phrase


Thorough filing comrade.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 10, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I can’t think of the insults the right of the LP shout at the general left apart from the obvs loony leftie.
> Help me someone.


Entryists, surely?


----------



## TopCat (Mar 10, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Entryists, surely?


That’s the spirit.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 10, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I can’t think of the insults the right of the LP shout at the general left apart from the obvs loony leftie.
> Help me someone.


Wreckers


----------



## two sheds (Mar 10, 2021)

The irony is that with Labour now totally fucked, I'd probably be recommending the same sort of actions that redsquirrel is. If I knew what they were, and despite this probably giving him apoplexy.


----------



## TopCat (Mar 10, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Wreckers


It’s like 1983 for me, all over again.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 10, 2021)

two sheds said:


> The irony is that with Labour now totally fucked, I'd probably be recommending the same sort of actions that redsquirrel is. If I knew what they were, and despite this probably giving him apoplexy.


His entire persona is founded on apoplexy


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 10, 2021)

TopCat said:


> It’s like 1983 for me, all over again.


But with worse music in the charts


----------



## TopCat (Mar 10, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> But with worse music in the charts


That’s just cos we are older.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 10, 2021)

TopCat said:


> That’s just cos we are older.


I think it's because 1983 was unusually lucky with chart music


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Mar 10, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> But with worse music in the charts



I haven't a clue what's in the charts tbh. It might be great for all I know.

Although I tend to assume it's mostly just Ed Sheeran.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 10, 2021)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> I haven't a clue what's in the charts tbh. It might be great for all I know.
> 
> Although I tend to assume it's mostly just Ed Sheeran.


Ed Sheeran is in there tbh


----------



## killer b (Mar 10, 2021)

I think popular music has fragmented in recent years in ways that make the charts a much less relevant measure of popular culture in 2021 than it was in 1983. There's lots of amazing pop music about though, as always.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Mar 10, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> 24 posts from tulsa


----------



## two sheds (Mar 10, 2021)

I am carrying on with the studying as recommended but I really don't understand the dismissal of the PWSC. 

Assume for the moment (hahahahahaha) Corbyn had got in the election before last and people had been promised full employment, NHS, nationalizing the popular industries etc etc etc.

If then capital didn't allow it to happen, surely this is a good thing. It's going to be  clear to people who voted what's going on. We've seen from Brexit how exercised the British population _can _get. That seems about the only chance we'd actually have of getting a revolution and confiscating the wealth of the people trying to fuck it all up.

(as an aside I apologize to revolutionary socialists everywhere for my comments about revolutionary socialists and revolutionary socialism on this and other threads, I'm really not having a go at revolutionary socialists in general, I'm having a go at redsquirrel because the contempt he clearly feels for me is mutual because of the contempt he expresses for people who don't agree with him.)


----------



## two sheds (Mar 10, 2021)

killer b said:


> I think popular music has fragmented in recent years in ways that make the charts a much less relevant measure of popular culture in 2021 than it was in 1983. There's lots of amazing pop music about though, as always.



Yeh but the _conditions have changed._ We're never going to get good pop music again because the _conditions have changed_. The market won't allow it.


----------



## steeplejack (Mar 10, 2021)

We've not even got started on insults

_Bonapartist individualist

Religious Obscurantist

A snivelling coward who has besmirched our movement

Trotskyist-Bukharinist saboteur

A fake-rhinestoned buttplug in the arsecrack of capital_ (OK I made that last one up)

I'm pleased to see that Sur Kieth is doing so well that he's not even the main subject of a thread on his own irrelevance anymore.


----------



## steeplejack (Mar 10, 2021)

Meanwhile, another day, another self-inflicted wound for "Scottish" Labour. The heresy? The young candidate indicated she might be minded to support calls for a second independence referendum, a slight variance from the official line which is a Paisleyite NO to indyref2 in all circumstances for the rest of recorded time.

Candidate dropped over stance on IndyRef2

I would say that the party under various flatlining non-leaderships for the last decade and a half was a laughing stock north of the border, but that would imply that anyone actually cared anymore. Now it's just an indifferent shrug, and a further withering of a diminished vote pile.


----------



## two sheds (Mar 10, 2021)

And Liverpool looks like a real shitshow. Five or six articles on front page of Skwawkbox - a bit breathless reporting but is it generally accurate? 









						Court statements show Labour excluded Rothery from mayoral race for speaking out about alleged corruption
					

Apparently promising a ‘fresh start’ for Liverpool is ‘impugning’ other candidates – but only if you’re Anna Rothery, as replacement candidate is using exact sam…




					skwawkbox.org


----------



## Serge Forward (Mar 10, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> not to mention windbag


Has anyone used mountebank, poppinjay or strutting peacock yet?


----------



## two sheds (Mar 10, 2021)

England won the World Cup in 1966 but we'll never win it again because _conditions have changed_. 
















Mind you that one's accurate


----------



## belboid (Mar 10, 2021)

TopCat said:


> That’s got to be belboid quote?


I'll note it for future reference, but it aint one of Leons more interesting works. 

Adventurists, fantasists, terrorist apologists, splitters, splitists, petty-bourgeois diletantes, third-worldists, permanent oppositionists, kindergarten kautsky, revolutionary re-enactment society.  Tho all are barely used compared to their favored term, the classic _fucking wankers._


----------



## TopCat (Mar 10, 2021)

Petty-bourgeois diletantes. I love that one. 
Never had an idea of what it meant.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 10, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Petty-bourgeois diletantes. I love that one.
> Never had an idea of what it meant.


Sounds like the starter in a michelin-starred restaurant


----------



## belboid (Mar 10, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Sounds like the starter in a michelin-starred restaurant


The Red Restaurant. PBD to start with, a main course of boeuf bourgeoisie and finishing with Millionaire Shortbread (made from actual millionaires).


----------



## belboid (Mar 10, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Petty-bourgeois diletantes. I love that one.
> Never had an idea of what it meant.


whatever you want it to mean, comrade, whatever you want it to mean.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 10, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Petty-bourgeois diletantes. I love that one.
> Never had an idea of what it meant.


He called me that over in the census thread!


----------



## steeplejack (Mar 10, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Petty-bourgeois diletantes. I love that one.
> Never had an idea of what it meant.



It's how a "middle-class lifestylist prick" was referred to 200 years ago I think


----------



## Serge Forward (Mar 10, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Petty-bourgeois diletantes. I love that one.
> Never had an idea of what it meant.


Sp - dilettante!!!!!!!111!!1


----------



## belboid (Mar 10, 2021)

Serge Forward said:


> Sp - dilettante!!!!!!!111!!1


my dictionary lists both as acceptable


----------



## Serge Forward (Mar 10, 2021)

belboid said:


> my dictionary lists both as acceptable


Il tuo dizionario è il lavoro di un dilettante


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 10, 2021)

two sheds said:


> I usually get to this point in a ‘discussion’ and think fuckit I can’t be bothered but ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Good post. 

Regarding the differences between 45 and 75, the moral strength of a people that have just lived through a war to demand real change shouldn't be underestimated, I don't think. Reading the Conservative manifesto for 1945, quite a few things would have been done similarly if they had been elected. Housing, education and health policies would have been broadly similar. We might have ended up with different forms of a welfare state, but a welfare state of some kind would have been implemented. The biggest difference between tories and labour involved the nationalisation of industry, which is the one big idea of Attlee's govt that the Tories opposed (they later came to accept it, of course, for a time).

1945  Conservative Party Manifesto - CONSERVATIVEMANIFESTO.COM

That for me is a clue to when meaningful change is likely or possible. Directly after a crisis of some kind. 2008 was a chance to change course. It was spurned. Covid could be another. It's likely to be spurned as well, I would guess, but it's still a little early to tell.

Who is in power still matters, though. A Corbyn-style govt in 2008 may have acted differently towards the banks. A Corbyn-style govt may have acted differently in response to Covid. It was Thatcher, not Labour, who launched a war on the unions. Labour did nothing to reverse it, but that's not so different from it being Labour, not the Tories, who nationalised industry in 45, with the tories doing nothing to reverse it until Thatcher.


----------



## belboid (Mar 10, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Good post.
> 
> Regarding the differences between 45 and 75, the moral strength of a people that have just lived through a war to demand real change shouldn't be underestimated, I don't think. Reading the Conservative manifesto for 1945, quite a few things would have been done similarly if they had been elected. Housing, education and health policies would have been broadly similar. We might have ended up with different forms of a welfare state, but a welfare state of some kind would have been implemented. The biggest difference between tories and labour involved the nationalisation of industry, which is the one big idea of Attlee's govt that the Tories opposed (they later came to accept it, of course, for a time).
> 
> ...


Don't know about housing or education, but tory plans for a health service that covered the nation were vastly different from the NHS. That's why they voted against it over twenty times, and why Churchill called it akin to national socialism. 

And lets not forget that Atlee was in government throughout the war and eld the 'home effort' - including ensuring that rations were actually an improvement on the amount of food many families could afford pre-war.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 10, 2021)

belboid said:


> Don't know about housing or education, but tory plans for a health service that covered the nation were vastly different from the NHS. That's why they voted against it over twenty times, and why Churchill called it akin to national socialism.
> 
> And lets not forget that Atlee was in government throughout the war and eld the 'home effort' - including ensuring that rations were actually an improvement on the amount of food many families could afford pre-war.


What strikes me about that Tory manifesto (and a big clue as to why they lost) is that it is extremely defensive - basically, we agree with Labour about X, Y, Z, with great praise for what the labour people in the wartime govt had done. They do explicitly promise universal health coverage, though. Maybe it would have taken a form similar to those of other European countries rather than the NHS, but some kind of universalism would have been there.


----------



## belboid (Mar 10, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> What strikes me about that Tory manifesto (and a big clue as to why they lost) is that it is extremely defensive - basically, we agree with Labour about X, Y, Z, with great praise for what the labour people in the wartime govt had done. They do explicitly promise universal health coverage, though. Maybe it would have taken a form similar to those of other European countries rather than the NHS, but some kind of universalism would have been there.


It wasn't going to be 'universal' tho, it was going to be 'comprehensive' - which may sound like mere petty-fogging but would have been quite significant.  The bit about universities is an indicator of how they wanted a bunch of local (but semi-co-ordinated) services which were almost entirely professional led.  Could have been anything from being like the french service to the US lack thereof.

(It also strikes me how incredibly thin the manifestos were then, really quite generic and vague)


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 10, 2021)

belboid said:


> (It also strikes me how incredibly thin the manifestos were then, really quite generic and vague)


Is that partly, or mostly, because they expected people to read them? How many people read the manifestos today? Surely it's almost nobody. They're read by the media, etc, in order to trip the parties up, take them on over funding promises, etc, but they're not created to actually be read by the mass of voters. That 45 manifesto from the tories is a direct address to the voters.


----------



## two sheds (Mar 10, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Many did so including me. Not sure I held my nose either. The one time it worked we got the Iraqi war.


I wonder though, would we have invaded if it had been a tory government? All except two  tories voted for it, and a tory government would presumably have wanted to brownnose the americans just as much. We might not have had Blair's  weapons of mass destruction lie but I wouldn't put that past the tories either.


----------



## ska invita (Mar 10, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Is that partly, or mostly, because they expected people to read them? How many people read the manifestos today? Surely it's almost nobody. They're read by the media, etc, in order to trip the parties up, take them on over funding promises, etc, but they're not created to actually be read by the mass of voters. That 45 manifesto from the tories is a direct address to the voters.


a lot of people wanted to read the Corbyn 2017 manifesto on paper but it was really hard to get hold of
(as opposed to a pdf)

i guess just like a book it depends how good it is!


----------



## ska invita (Mar 10, 2021)

two sheds said:


> I wonder though, would we have invaded if it had been a tory government?


of course


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Mar 10, 2021)

two sheds said:


> I wonder though, would we have invaded if it had been a tory government? All except two tories voted for it, and a tory government would presumably have wanted to brownnose the americans just as much. We might not have had Blair's weapons of mass destruction lie but I wouldn't put that past the tories either.





ska invita said:


> of course



from memory, the tories and their friends in the press were (with a small handful of exceptions) calling for the UK to join in the first minute the americans wanted us to, rather than hanging about waiting for the weapons inspectors to report...


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 10, 2021)

two sheds said:


> I wonder though, would we have invaded if it had been a tory government? All except two  tories voted for it, and a tory government would presumably have wanted to brownnose the americans just as much. We might not have had Blair's  weapons of mass destruction lie but I wouldn't put that past the tories either.


We can't know of course, but far from certain, I would say. France and Germany stayed out. In the French case, it was a r/w president who said 'non'. Alternative histories are always fraught, so I think in this case the safest we can say is that it was very much Blair's war - he wanted it, he got the false evidence together to justify it, and the rest of the labour govt, with just one exception, went along with it, out of whatever, moral cowardice mostly. If Blair had said no, none of them would have disagreed with that either, I suspect.


----------



## two sheds (Mar 10, 2021)

Although 84 labour MPs voted against. There might have been more if it was a tory government proposing it (unless Blair whipped them of course).


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 10, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Although 84 labour MPs voted against. There might have been more if it was a tory government proposing it (unless Blair whipped them of course).


The bit where we enter the fog, I think, concerns the effort Blair expended to ensure the war happened, the lies he created for it. Any other government would presumably have had to do similar. It took energy and motivation to take Britain into that war. That energy and motivation came primarily from Blair. 

From memory, the tories used Blair's lies as the reason for supporting the war, so they were covered after the event in the sense that they hadn't told the lies, they'd just chosen to 'believe' them. Would they have had the energy and motivation to create those lies if they'd been in power? Possibly. I don't think it's certain, though. 

In terms of this thread, that war was what finally broke things for me wrt labour or any kind of voting. Like many others, I felt things only changed when Corbyn became labour leader. Now we're back to me feeling totally disenfranchised again.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 10, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Although 84 labour MPs voted against.


But only one member of the govt resigned over it. Spineless cunts. 

And he ended up dead a couple of years later soon after it became crystal clear that everything he had said was true.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 11, 2021)

kinnel


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 11, 2021)

brogdale said:


> kinnel



Parliament

Next


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 11, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> The bit where we enter the fog, I think, concerns the effort Blair expended to ensure the war happened, the lies he created for it. Any other government would presumably have had to do similar. It took energy and motivation to take Britain into that war. That energy and motivation came primarily from Blair.
> 
> From memory, the tories used Blair's lies as the reason for supporting the war, so they were covered after the event in the sense that they hadn't told the lies, they'd just chosen to 'believe' them. Would they have had the energy and motivation to create those lies if they'd been in power? Possibly. I don't think it's certain, though.
> 
> In terms of this thread, that war was what finally broke things for me wrt labour or any kind of voting. Like many others, I felt things only changed when Corbyn became labour leader. Now we're back to me feeling totally disenfranchised again.


Yes, it's all about you


----------



## ska invita (Mar 11, 2021)

brogdale said:


> kinnel



i know doing interviews takes years of skill, and in general im glad there are politicians like her around who have worked in the social sector and ended in parliament due to union work, but its really not that hard this
-we cant give a precise figure, but we fully support our union negotiators, and we want a significant pay increase
-yes we proposed 5% whilst Tories were repeatedly defunding the NHS - the labour party always supports key workers, we founded the nhs etc etc

instead instincts are all wrong, embarrassed of past, generally slippery, leading to garbled we wont even stand by 5% because the electorate rejected the manifesto

its another open goal here for Labour and they come across defensive and miserable


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 11, 2021)

brogdale said:


> kinnel



How times change, I knew her in Unison used to spend a bit of time drinking with her in the pub when we were on strikes for better pay. She became our  branch secretary, in those days if Labour Councils had come out with the dross she just spoke about our pay she'd have ripped them to shreds .


----------



## hitmouse (Mar 11, 2021)

Can't believe that so many people have spent so long discussing the ins and outs of Labour's 2019 defeat - was it Brexit, was it antisemitism, was it this or was it that - and they've all managed to miss the obvious truth that Rayner's discovered: Labour lost because they were too nice to NHS staff. Bravo to Rayner for finally making the effort to reach out to the crucial nurse-hating vote.

(belated edit after I eventually remembered how to spell the useless sod's name.)


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Mar 11, 2021)

brogdale said:


> kinnel




This is a good example of why I don't trust *any *politician and don't vote.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Mar 11, 2021)

The Labour line - let the pay review body and the unions negotiate and we would accept their final recommendation-  isn’t a bad one. On paper. But it’s also one of those that because of triangulation, timidity and a series of qualifying underlying caveats that does not pass the most simple political test: is the policy clear and do people understand it? 

I have to say I agree with Steps point above as well. I wanted to like Rayner and valued her class and TU background. But she’s been massively disappointing since being elected.


----------



## killer b (Mar 11, 2021)

relatedly:


----------



## Serge Forward (Mar 11, 2021)

brogdale said:


> kinnel



Thanks for reminding me of why I hate the fucking Labour Party (not that I needed reminding).


----------



## ska invita (Mar 11, 2021)

I missed this - the one figure Labour have gone for is 2.1%
*








						Labour demand 'at least' a 2.1% NHS pay rise - and back nurses' right to strike
					

Labour said nurses and other NHS staff should get 2.1% as a bare minimum - but wouldn't say exactly how much and insisted a strike was 'hypothetical'




					www.mirror.co.uk
				



*


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 11, 2021)

Leadership in action


----------



## kabbes (Mar 11, 2021)

I saw Rayner on C4 news tonight.  When pushed on why Labour are 13 points behind in the polls going into local elections -- the same as when SurKieth took the leadership -- her response was that it has been a difficult year.  As if the Tories catastrophic response to Covid and their ballsing up of Brexit is something that would just obviously always hurt _Labour_.


----------



## stethoscope (Mar 11, 2021)

Just why vote Labour at all, even when you think they can't plunge any shitter they constantly find new depths.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 11, 2021)

ska invita said:


> I missed this - the one figure Labour have gone for is 2.1%
> *
> 
> 
> ...


The Tory proposition was for this to come out of the NHS budget ie a cut to NHS money for medicine


----------



## Humberto (Mar 12, 2021)

He just doesn't make any good or smart moves. I mean people are bound to notice. He's a 'knows the price of everything and the value of nothing' type. He never (as a rule it seems) nails his colours to the mast. He's an establishment, time-serving lukewarm void and is precisely the last thing we need from an opposition, especially so right now and looking forwards. Not even yesterday's man.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Mar 14, 2021)

this is going well...


----------



## Raheem (Mar 14, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> this is going well...



Wow. Even Sir Kief. That's got to be game set and match.


----------



## Ground Elder (Mar 14, 2021)

The Keith way to show disapproval would be to whip MPs to abstain on the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill


----------



## quiet guy (Mar 14, 2021)




----------



## Artaxerxes (Mar 14, 2021)

Ground Elder said:


> The Keith way to show disapproval would be to whip MPs to abstain on the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill




Labour are now voting against it but its purely because of last nights vigil going fubar. They'd be abstaining otherwise.


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 14, 2021)

Why is abstaining a thing anyway? They’re employed to say yay or nay to these things not to sit on their hands and hum


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Mar 14, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> Why is abstaining a thing anyway? They’re employed to say yay or nay to these things not to sit on their hands and hum



it's cowardly focus group politics

they don't want to be seen as supporting tory policies, but they don't want the 'labour soft on law and order / terrorists / criminals' bollocks that the tories and their friends in the press will come out with if they vote against it


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 14, 2021)

I guess there must be legitimate reasons for abstaining such as conflict of interest, but it rarely is that, it’s just cowardice


----------



## NoXion (Mar 14, 2021)

Whipping to abstain makes Labour look it lacks conviction as a party, so I guess it's on-brand for them these days.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Mar 14, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Wow. Even Sir Kief. That's got to be game set and match.


He doesn’t think Cressida Dick should resign though, I’m not going to defend him any more.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 14, 2021)

_Just a little prick...

_


----------



## killer b (Mar 14, 2021)

What a great time to have a cop as leader of the labour party


----------



## Artaxerxes (Mar 14, 2021)

Keir says he's not going to call for Cressida to resign   

It's because it won't change anything but noone is going to read that far or care. She can also resign and you can still call for change so...


Well done Keir you fucking Muppet


----------



## eatmorecheese (Mar 14, 2021)

Utterly dismal. Fuck Labour.


----------



## a_chap (Mar 14, 2021)

brogdale said:


> _Just a little prick...
> 
> View attachment 258717_



No. Apparently he's 5' 8" tall.


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 14, 2021)

a_chap said:


> No. Apparently he's 5' 8" tall.


That’s quite short these days


----------



## killer b (Mar 14, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Keir says he's not going to call for Cressida to resign
> 
> It's because it won't change anything but noone is going to read that far or care. She can also resign and you can still call for change so...
> 
> ...


Fully expecting to see Patel sack Dick by the end of the day now.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 14, 2021)

killer b said:


> Fully expecting to see Patel sack Dick by the end of the day now.


The tories have seemed very keen to talk up the political accountability of the Met all day...cue more Khan bashing.


----------



## ska invita (Mar 14, 2021)

killer b said:


> Fully expecting to see Patel sack Dick by the end of the day now.


No one resigns or gets fired anymore, theres no need


----------



## killer b (Mar 14, 2021)

ska invita said:


> No one resigns or gets fired anymore, theres no need


Sure, but its an opportunity for Patel to outflank Starmer from the left. Her days are numbered, out by teatime tomorrow.


----------



## ska invita (Mar 14, 2021)

killer b said:


> outflank Starmer


who? name rings a bell


----------



## Raheem (Mar 14, 2021)

killer b said:


> Fully expecting to see Patel sack Dick


Glad I read that with my glasses on.

ETA: apologies all, and I don't actually wear glasses.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Mar 15, 2021)

The US has ‘the squad’ and now so does the UK. Infinite iron fist salute to these glorious comrades! Down with Starmerism!


----------



## two sheds (Mar 21, 2021)

Keir Starmer has just made his first big mistake | John Rentoul
					

The Labour leader has had a good first year in challenging circumstances, until this week




					www.independent.co.uk
				




His first big mistake

Well his first _really _big mistake

Well his first _humungously_ big mistake

Well his first ...


----------



## Humberto (Mar 21, 2021)

Not even treading water really is he?


----------



## Humberto (Mar 21, 2021)

Permanent retreat, fuck 'em tbh. Still it's a career for them.


----------



## splonkydoo (Mar 21, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Keir Starmer has just made his first big mistake | John Rentoul
> 
> 
> The Labour leader has had a good first year in challenging circumstances, until this week
> ...



John Rentoul is an absolute hack.


----------



## two sheds (Mar 21, 2021)

splonkydoo said:


> John Rentoul is an absolute hack.


He's just made his first big mistake  He was doing all right up until then.


----------



## Humberto (Mar 21, 2021)

I've no idea about this guy's politics tbh.


----------



## Humberto (Mar 21, 2021)

Doesn't mind police impunity for rape though.


----------



## Humberto (Mar 21, 2021)

Spycops Bill









						The Spycops bill undermines the rule of law and gives a green light to serious crimes | Shami Chakrabarti
					

Of course we need undercover officers. But the plan being put to MPs tomorrow blurs the line between agent and agitator, says former shadow attorney general Shami Chakrabarti




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 21, 2021)

Humberto said:


> Spycops Bill
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Doesn't Chakrabarti work for Starmer? Maybe she should have a chat with him about undercover filth because his hands are far from clean.


----------



## tony.c (Mar 21, 2021)

Mandelson sticks his oar in too, and claims Starmer 'radiates competence'!








						Mandelson urges Starmer to begin Labour policy review
					

The former cabinet minister says the Labour leader still has the "2019 manifesto round his neck".



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## andysays (Mar 21, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Keir Starmer has just made his first big mistake | John Rentoul
> 
> 
> The Labour leader has had a good first year in challenging circumstances, until this week
> ...


This bit is interesting/amusing



> I assume the timing of the by-election, which by convention is in the hands of the party that held the seat, is being chosen so that a defeat can be “lost” in the profusion of elections all over the country



No idea if it's actually true though, it might just be more practical to have a by-election on a day when the other elections are going on  already...


----------



## andysays (Mar 21, 2021)

tony.c said:


> Mandelson sticks his oar in too, and claims Starmer 'radiates competence'!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



2019 manifesto round his neck = still blaming Corbyn for Labour and Starmer's shit performance.

ETA Radiating competence is a very long way from being able to inspire anyone...


----------



## PR1Berske (Mar 21, 2021)




----------



## Elohim (Mar 22, 2021)

Trouble is who would replace Keir


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 22, 2021)

Elohim said:


> Trouble is who would replace Keir


I see you're on first name terms


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Mar 22, 2021)

Elohim said:


> Trouble is who would replace Keir



Tub of Brylcream?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 22, 2021)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> Tub of Brylcream?


Tub has only been in parliament a few years but the constituency of brylcream has never been so well represented


----------



## Elohim (Mar 22, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> I see you're on first name
> 
> Keir is not my favourite person but at moment I can't see who else could actually fight for leadership.  Maybe a new working class party is overdue.


----------



## krtek a houby (Mar 22, 2021)

Elohim said:


> Trouble is who would replace Keir



Any number of androids just off the production line


----------



## Chz (Mar 22, 2021)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> Tub of Brylcream?


The Rt. Hon. Tub of Lard MP


----------



## andysays (Mar 22, 2021)

Chz said:


> The Rt. Hon. Tub of Lard MP


Stood down as an MP at the 1997 election and is now the Rt Hon Baron Tub of Lard, I believe...


----------



## PR1Berske (Mar 22, 2021)

Presented without comment.


----------



## kabbes (Mar 22, 2021)

Or, to put it another way, lost x 11


----------



## ska invita (Mar 22, 2021)

Lost, lost, lost, lost, Blair, Blair, Blair, lost, lost, deliberately lost, deliberately lost


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Mar 22, 2021)

PR1Berske said:


> Presented without comment.



Campbell’s point would have been more powerful had he had the historical wherewithal to add in  how the previous two (post-war and Wilson) periods of Labour in Government had come about. I’d also be interested in her response by the way.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Mar 22, 2021)

Forgot to add the next election: LOST


----------



## Raheem (Mar 23, 2021)

All this is getting a bit tough for Johnson. Seems like he's having to do the opposition himself, and Starmer's still taking the salary.









						Boris Johnson admits regrets over handling of first Covid wave
					

PM says he wishes ‘many things’ were done differently as country marks one year since first lockdown




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Mar 24, 2021)

Raheem said:


> All this is getting a bit tough for Johnson. Seems like he's having to do the opposition himself, and Starmer's still taking the salary.



it passed beyond the point of parody some time a few months back, when johnson told starmer that marcus rashford was doing a better job of pointing out the government's shitness than the leader of the opposition was...


----------



## Artaxerxes (Mar 24, 2021)




----------



## TopCat (Mar 24, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


>



Responsible leadership.


----------



## hitmouse (Mar 24, 2021)

Do you reckon the tory leadership have some kind of running bet as to who can be the first person to come up with something that Starmer will actually oppose?


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Mar 24, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> who can be the first person to come up with something that Starmer will actually oppose?



other than jeremy corbyn, you mean?


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Mar 24, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Do you reckon the tory leadership have some kind of running bet as to who can be the first person to come up with something that Starmer will actually oppose?



'Our new policy will see the Leader of Her Majesty's Opposition slapped across the face with a wet fish at ten minute intervals throughout the day.'

'As a point of deeply held principle Labour will be abstaining on the fish-slapping bill.'


----------



## hitmouse (Mar 24, 2021)

"We condemn utterly Diane Abbott's extremist position of asking if the fish-slapping could not be amended to once every 30 minutes, and can confirm that she has now been expelled from the Labour Party."


----------



## belboid (Mar 24, 2021)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> 'Our new policy will see the Leader of Her Majesty's Opposition slapped across the face with a wet fish at ten minute intervals throughout the day.'
> 
> 'As a point of deeply held principle Labour will be abstaining on the fish-slapping bill.'


Is it a British fish?


----------



## mojo pixy (Mar 24, 2021)

Well! Well! Indeed, and _arhhh_, as my honourable friend [indicates JRM, who chuckles smugly at the unexpected attention] has already _arhhh_, clarified mister speaker, such a fish would indeed be, _arhhh_, a happier fish - not only, mister speaker, not only because it was now a british fish, _arhhh_, but with the honour, nay delight, _arhhh_, of being the first fish in three hundred years, mister speaker,_ three hundred years_ [JRM and various back benchers jeer] mister speaker, to have, in fact, _slapped _a leader of the opposition. _Arhhh _and I think it bears adding, mister speaker, that _piscem slappator, semper doggerel  _[eruption of tory cheers]

[Starmer chortles along because he's already a Sir and millionaire so fuck you]


----------



## Rimbaud (Mar 24, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


>




Good news for the Northern Independence Party who will no doubt snatch up a portion of Liverpool's Labour activists now.

Edit - and potentially some councillors.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 25, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Do you reckon the tory leadership have some kind of running bet as to who can be the first person to come up with something that Starmer will actually oppose?



Hair gel tax


----------



## mauvais (Mar 27, 2021)

Spot the difference.





As featured here:




I reckon Stalin would think it a weak effort.


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 27, 2021)

Lol cheeky cunt


----------



## JTG (Mar 27, 2021)

mauvais said:


> Spot the difference.
> 
> View attachment 260565
> 
> ...



When the last bloke's cult of personality looks cooler than yours


----------



## ska invita (Mar 28, 2021)

"thank you for being our leader" - no longer true 

skwawkbox have some survey figures that suggest 100k members have left, unconfirmed


----------



## TopCat (Mar 28, 2021)

mauvais said:


> Spot the difference.
> 
> View attachment 260565
> 
> ...



I can’t see a difference. Please help.


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 28, 2021)

Looks like Dodds is out and rachel 'harder on benefits than the tories' reeves is in. This is sure to reverse those declining poll numbers, after all what everyone wants is a right wing dickhead with a social workers demeanour.


----------



## TopCat (Mar 28, 2021)

Guardian reports that senior labour mp’s (cunts) have been calling on sir Kier to take on a big figure to help improve his performance.
Who the fuck are they thinking of?


----------



## ska invita (Mar 28, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I can’t see a difference. Please help.


"thank you for being our leader" sign photoshoped


----------



## two sheds (Mar 28, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I can’t see a difference. Please help.


1st photo from Corbyn meeting, second posted by Starmer pretending to be current. Brown handwritten placard would have been a bit of a giveaway if not altered.


----------



## TopCat (Mar 28, 2021)

Can someone circle the difference to help? I stare and stare but those images look alike.


----------



## fishfinger (Mar 28, 2021)




----------



## TopCat (Mar 28, 2021)

Thank you. My hungover head is happy now.


----------



## Spandex (Mar 28, 2021)

fishfinger said:


> View attachment 260667


While they were doctoring the sign, they cheered up the grumpy bloke in front of the sign too. What's that about? Was his sneer deemed insufficiently enthusiastic for the Stamer Labour party?


----------



## JTG (Mar 28, 2021)

DotCommunist said:


> Looks like Dodds is out and rachel 'harder on benefits than the tories' reeves is in. This is sure to reverse those declining poll numbers, after all what everyone wants is a right wing dickhead with a social workers demeanour.








						The Times & The Sunday Times
					

News and opinion from The Times & The Sunday Times




					www.thetimes.co.uk
				




Also touting promotion for Jess Philips and a return for Cooper and Benn. A party with zero new ideas and a belief that it's just about personality and presentation (both of which are also awful)


----------



## JTG (Mar 28, 2021)

The amount of centrist jizz we can expect when Cooper is back on the front bench doesn't bear thinking about, dear god


----------



## fishfinger (Mar 28, 2021)

Spandex said:


> While they were doctoring the sign, they cheered up the grumpy bloke in front of the sign too. What's that about? Was his sneer deemed insufficiently enthusiastic for the Stamer Labour party?


Keir Starmer's Labour: Where everyone is happy!


----------



## TopCat (Mar 28, 2021)

JTG said:


> The Times & The Sunday Times
> 
> 
> News and opinion from The Times & The Sunday Times
> ...


That would be a startling leadership team.


----------



## JTG (Mar 28, 2021)

TopCat said:


> That would be a startling leadership team.


Let's face it, RLB was there to make a pretence at unity before bundling her out at the first opportunity. Dodds was there to ensure the soft left gave permanent inspection rights to their wallets. They'll come up with another reason to justify their ongoing support for the hard right leadership somehow.


----------



## JTG (Mar 28, 2021)




----------



## mauvais (Mar 28, 2021)

Spandex said:


> While they were doctoring the sign, they cheered up the grumpy bloke in front of the sign too. What's that about? Was his sneer deemed insufficiently enthusiastic for the Stamer Labour party?


I wonder if we can FOIA the brief.

"Make him a bit happier. Not massively happy, no one will buy that. Can you get him to look like he's just watched some policemen twat a journalist?"


----------



## TopCat (Mar 28, 2021)

Is Jess Phillips the big figure the guardian referred to today?


----------



## JTG (Mar 28, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Is Jess Phillips the big figure the guardian referred to today?


She'd like to think so


----------



## PR1Berske (Mar 28, 2021)

> “People do underestimate the mountain of shit Keir inherited,” said one senior MP. “It is a monumental task. But there is a complaint of a lack of grip.”
> 
> Another said: “There is deep frustration in the shadow cabinet over a lack of direction.”



Source Labour MPs raise fears over Keir Starmer's 'lack of grip'


----------



## JTG (Mar 28, 2021)

Starmer learning that the Labour right will never be happy with anything other than the reanimated corpse of Blairism


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Mar 28, 2021)

PR1Berske said:


> Source Labour MPs raise fears over Keir Starmer's 'lack of grip'





> MPs complain of being ignored and that there is no sense of a “shared political project”.



from where i'm sitting there seems to be a clear shared political project

only snag is it's shared with the sodding tories...


----------



## BlanketAddict (Mar 28, 2021)

JTG said:


> Starmer learning that the Labour right will never be happy with anything other than the reanimated corpse of Blairism



Whatever happened to all that Return of Blair noise from a while back? 
David Milliband told him to get to the back of the queue perhaps?!


----------



## andysays (Mar 28, 2021)

Spandex said:


> While they were doctoring the sign, they cheered up the grumpy bloke in front of the sign too. What's that about? Was his sneer deemed insufficiently enthusiastic for the Stamer Labour party?


I'm surprised and slightly disappointed they didn't add a whole load of union flags while they were at it...


----------



## JTG (Mar 28, 2021)

Courtesy of @LeftieStats on That Twitter:

Anneliese Dodds net favourability -17%
SKS net favourability -18%

Amongst 2019 Tory voters:
Dodds -29%
SKS -56%

(All YouGov 8-9 March, those figures are negative percentages)

SKS looks like a PM in waiting (Northern voters)
Does 22%
Does not 52%

Net rating in this poll was +10% in June, now -30%
(YouGov 15 March)

SKS average net approval with Opinium was +20% in September, now 0

I don't think Dodds is the issue here lads.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 28, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Guardian reports that senior labour mp’s (cunts) have been calling on sir Kier to take on a big figure to help improve his performance.
> Who the fuck are they thinking of?


'_Look, guys.._.'


----------



## kabbes (Mar 28, 2021)

He’s the Michael Howard, isn’t he?  Not even the William Hague.


----------



## JTG (Mar 28, 2021)

kabbes said:


> He’s the Michael Howard, isn’t he?  Not even the William Hague.


As far as the right are concerned, he's Kinnock

I think he's more equivalent to IDS tbh. May not even fight an election as leader


----------



## Leighsw2 (Mar 31, 2021)

kabbes said:


> He’s the Michael Howard, isn’t he?  Not even the William Hague.


Just a reminder that Michael Howard's Conservative Party won more votes than Blairite Labour in England in 2005.
2005 United Kingdom general election in England - Wikipedia


----------



## ska invita (Apr 1, 2021)

Cops will cop








						Sir Keir Starmer vows law and order drive and hits out at Tories on crime
					

The Labour leader said the issue would be central to his party’s campaign for May elections.




					www.standard.co.uk


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 1, 2021)

Leighsw2 said:


> Just a reminder that Michael Howard's Conservative Party won more votes than Blairite Labour in England in 2005.
> 2005 United Kingdom general election in England - Wikipedia


jeremy corbyn in 2019 - in the election everyone's described as a great disaster for labour - won more votes than either party in 2005


----------



## ska invita (Apr 1, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Cops will cop
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This isn't a spoof


----------



## Quote (Apr 2, 2021)

Genius political instincts to launch a campaign for more copper’s after recent events.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Apr 2, 2021)

Quote said:


> Genius political instincts to launch a campaign for more copper’s after recent events.



it's what a focus group of half a dozen daily mail reading floating voters has identified as a priority...


----------



## JTG (Apr 2, 2021)

Just thought you'd appreciate the shadow equalities minister delivering some racist leaflets:


----------



## ska invita (Apr 2, 2021)

Quote said:


> Genius political instincts to launch a campaign for more copper’s after recent events.


ive been thinking about this .... why? of all the things going on in the world why make law and order the focus, especially so when they've reluctantly decided not to vote for the new policing bill (for now - i can imagine that changing though after a minor ammendment).

Here's a theory: Starmer is flailing -"no one knows what he stands for" is the media refrain (we know all too well of course) - so its back to the advertising/campaign managers for help- they take Starmer aside and psychologically profile him - "Keir, who are you really? what are you passionate about?" they ask him -  after some soul searching he comes back:

"'I'm the Director of Prosecutions...I'm an authoritarian....I had "authority" on my election posters...I like getting people locked up .... i like kicking all riff raff unwashed members out of the party"......i'm want to clean up this party, this country....blue lives matter.....kids dealing drugs should be in jail....what the country needs is....", okay Keir, that's great you can stop now, that was great...you see, you are passionate about something! People recognise authenticity so you should run with this! Don't hold back now, just be your true self.....be that hero inside yourself....

next day:


----------



## teqniq (Apr 2, 2021)

ska invita said:


> This isn't a spoof



Nothing about the blatant corruption by the vermin though, an obvious target completely missed.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 2, 2021)

Crime, especially low level acquisitive crime and anti-social behaviour, is a massive issue in working class communities. A genuinely well worked out  programme to tackle it: involving and mobilising communities, social care, youth facilities and resources would be massively popular.

Suffice to say that this is none of those things. It’s a piss poor pastiche of the 1990’s Blairite ‘tough on crime’ act. Starmer increasingly resembles a bad karaoke singer belting out the ‘classics’ to a disinterested crowd...there is also the whiff of desperation to it. It looks and feels like rapidly improvised ‘on the hoof’ stuff.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 2, 2021)

JTG said:


> Just thought you'd appreciate the shadow equalities minister delivering some racist leaflets:



Compounded by this lie:



She couldn't tell the truth that, as the 'star' canvasser, she would have swanned in and just put anything through a few letter boxes without even thinking to read the contents.


----------



## JTG (Apr 2, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Compounded by this lie:
> 
> View attachment 261351
> 
> She couldn't tell the truth that, as the 'star' canvasser, she would have swanned in and just put anything through a few letter boxes without even thinking to read the contents.


Yeah I mean, was she aware of the negative connotation of "deal with"? Which is far worse than semantics over "incursion" in all honesty


----------



## Shechemite (Apr 2, 2021)

A racist Corbynite? Pull the other one


----------



## JTG (Apr 2, 2021)

tbh Labour's absolutely riddled with it regardless of faction

Also, Nichols is Jewish so there's that


----------



## danny la rouge (Apr 2, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Compounded by this lie:
> 
> View attachment 261351
> 
> She couldn't tell the truth that, as the 'star' canvasser, she would have swanned in and just put anything through a few letter boxes without even thinking to read the contents.


_Oh no, does “dealing with travellers” have negative connotations too? I had no idea._


----------



## JTG (Apr 2, 2021)

Why only the other day Phillips was on about the white working class. Given her rants about the Pakistani & Bangladeshi communities "importing wives for their disabled sons" in the past you might think that the Labour right have a racism problem too


----------



## 19sixtysix (Apr 2, 2021)

I found the april fool article in the guardian yesterday









						Starmer has a second shot at making a good first impression. He mustn't waste it | Martin Kettle
					

Those who are already writing off the Labour leader are premature, but the challenges are immense, says Guardian columnist Martin Kettle




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## JTG (Apr 2, 2021)

tbf professional buffoon Kettle's entire career is an April fool


----------



## DJWrongspeed (Apr 3, 2021)

Just listening to Steve Richards, he does make the important point that Labour doesn't have a track record of deposing it's leaders. John Smith died of course but what other leader was forced out successfully?


----------



## JTG (Apr 3, 2021)

So after the racism on Thursday, it was homophobia on Friday as Forensic Kieth visited a church that promotes prayer as a "cure" for homosexuality. 

They're really going for it this weekend, fuck knows what they're doing today


----------



## TopCat (Apr 3, 2021)

JTG said:


> So after the racism on Thursday, it was homophobia on Friday as Forensic Kieth visited a church that promotes prayer as a "cure" for homosexuality.
> 
> They're really going for it this weekend, fuck knows what they're doing today


Forensic Kieth is volunteering for the Metropolitan Police today. They are deploying him with the TSG under Delroy Smellie’s command.


----------



## killer b (Apr 3, 2021)

DJWrongspeed said:


> Just listening to Steve Richards, he does make the important point that Labour doesn't have a track record of deposing it's leaders. John Smith died of course but what other leader was forced out successfully?


Blair?


----------



## tony.c (Apr 3, 2021)

DJWrongspeed said:


> Just listening to Steve Richards, he does make the important point that Labour doesn't have a track record of deposing it's leaders. John Smith died of course but what other leader was forced out successfully?


Corbyn.


----------



## tim (Apr 3, 2021)

JTG said:


> So after the racism on Thursday, it was homophobia on Friday as Forensic Kieth visited a church that promotes prayer as a "cure" for homosexuality.
> 
> They're really going for it this wenekend, fuck knows what they're doing today


You mean this visit, I presume.




But how could he have known he was hobnobbing with a charismatic homophobe?

Theresa May meets with anti-gay cleric


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 3, 2021)

tony.c said:


> Corbyn.


he lost an election and resigned


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 3, 2021)

Closer to constructive dismissal then.


----------



## JTG (Apr 3, 2021)

tim said:


> You mean this visit, I presume.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Could have gone to literally any other church but had to be the same extremist one that May and CharlesNCamilla went to. 

Literally 30 secs on Google is beyond them


----------



## tony.c (Apr 3, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> he lost an election and resigned


Because of the undermining and backstabbing.


----------



## tim (Apr 3, 2021)

In visiting the exorcist Sir Sheith was following in the footsteps of giants


----------



## tim (Apr 3, 2021)

Continued from above


]Ekklesia | Boris Johnson under fire over church that "exorcises" gays[/MEDIA]

This was about Jonson's first visit in 2009


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 3, 2021)

tony.c said:


> Because of the undermining and backstabbing.


And the terrible divisive leadership and failure to address antisemitism


----------



## tim (Apr 3, 2021)

Obviously, Sir Keir's people didn't pick up this, either:

_*According to reports, the Pastor started by requesting for members willing to give £2,000 to come forward, after which he requested that those with £1, 000 come forward.*_
*He eventually proceeded to say that anybody giving an offering of less than £250 will not be called forward as he doesn’t want to embarrass them due to the supposedly small amount.
According to Ono Bello, members of his congregation were mortified at his requests as there are personal stories of people struggling financially, with visa applications, to get on the property ladder and gain profitable employment and have not received any support from the church.*
_*The Pastor, who was chosen in 2011 as “Britain’s Most Inspirational Black Person” allegedly pays himself and other senior Pastors in the church a six-figure salary in Pounds. *_

RCCG pastor Agu Iruku under fire for asking for £2,000 sacrificial offering


----------



## tony.c (Apr 3, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> And the terrible divisive leadership and failure to address antisemitism


I don't accept those smears, but even if people do it would mean he was forced out successfully.


----------



## ska invita (Apr 3, 2021)

i once got into a conversation with a guy with jamaican heritage about singing, and i ended up asking if he was part of a choir. he said he had joined a church choir for a bit, but the church he went to was basically a shakedown factory, which badmouthed you unless you paid up. theres a reason why so many "black" churches keep popping up everywhere < theyve got a good business model going on ripping off the vulnerable.
there should be a law against it


----------



## agricola (Apr 3, 2021)

ska invita said:


> i once got into a conversation with a guy with jamaican heritage about singing, and i ended up asking if he was part of a choir. he said he had joined a church choir for a bit, but the church he went to was basically a shakedown factory, which badmouthed you unless you paid up. theres a reason why so many "black" churches keep popping up everywhere < theyve got a good business model going on ripping off the vulnerable.
> there should be a law against it



"a good business model going on ripping off the vulnerable" - well it certainly sounds like a religion


----------



## Shechemite (Apr 3, 2021)

Time is almost up


----------



## mauvais (Apr 3, 2021)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Time is almost up


I've spent all day cutting out letters from all kinds of different newspapers and periodicals to make my ransom demand but turns out they're all haunted so whatever I try and assemble it somehow always comes out the same:


----------



## mauvais (Apr 3, 2021)

After hours of tense negotiation I somehow end up paying my hostage a million dollars to leave but then they refuse to go and I have to sign over my house whilst reading a statement about how much I value the police.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 3, 2021)

mauvais said:


> I've spent all day cutting out letters from all kinds of different newspapers and periodicals to make my ransom demand but turns out they're all haunted so whatever I try and assemble it somehow always comes out the same:
> 
> View attachment 261545


The Tory party are showing themselves a remarkably effective force for change


----------



## nino_savatte (Apr 3, 2021)

DJWrongspeed said:


> Just listening to Steve Richards, he does make the important point that Labour doesn't have a track record of deposing it's leaders. John Smith died of course but what other leader was forced out successfully?


George Lansbury, Angela 'Murder She Wrote' Lansbury's grandfather, was ousted in 1935 and replaced by Clem Attlee (whose grandson sits in the Lords as a Tory).


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Apr 3, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> The Tory party are showing themselves a remarkably effective force for change



and the Labour party is either supportive of, or abstaining on, most of those changes, so is also a farce for change...


----------



## steveseagull (Apr 3, 2021)

So is our man a homophobe or just terminally stupid?


----------



## 19sixtysix (Apr 4, 2021)

steveseagull said:


> So is our man a homophobe or just terminally stupid?



Just a back stabbing cunt


----------



## AnnO'Neemus (Apr 4, 2021)

mauvais said:


> I've spent all day cutting out letters from all kinds of different newspapers and periodicals to make my ransom demand but turns out they're all haunted so whatever I try and assemble it somehow always comes out the same:
> 
> View attachment 261545


How do you define 'effective'? Because it seems to me that Starmer isn't forcing change, he's moving the party further right and, if anything, promoting the party on the basis of 'Vote for Labour, because we stand for lots of the same things as the Tories, we're not that different to the party you voted into power, so you should be able to easily switch allegiance, because you'll get more of the same, we're just a little bit less mean to people'.

That's not effective leadership. That's not effecting change. It's encouraging people to vote for the status quo with a different brand, like vote for Pepsi instead of Coca Cola. 

Starmer's not saying vote for Irn Bru or Vimto or other regional offerings, he's not offering pumpkin spiced latte or kombucha or whatever the latest fashion trend is. 

The choice is Coca Cola or Pepsi. Nothing new. No radical departures. No change really.


----------



## mauvais (Apr 4, 2021)

I think you might have made the mistake of taking that post seriously.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Apr 4, 2021)

mauvais said:


> I think you might have made the mistake of taking that post seriously.



i think a few people might have made the mistake of taking kieth seriously...


----------



## Humberto (Apr 5, 2021)

Has there ever been a more odious, talentless unspeakably myopic bunch than the present cohort of MPs?

It gives me hope.


----------



## Humberto (Apr 5, 2021)

Thick shite


----------



## vanya (Apr 5, 2021)

One Abysmal Year of Keir
					

A full year since Labour returned to the mean and elected a man in a nice suit. Looking back at the occasion , this blog met Keir Starmer'...




					averypublicsociologist.blogspot.com
				






> A full year since Labour returned to the mean and elected a man in a nice suit. Looking back at the occasion, this blog met Keir Starmer's election with a bouquet of scepticism. The power grabs and rolling back of internal democracy, a default to the bourgeois common sense of politics, a load of dishonest but politically convenient hand wringing over antisemitism - despite the leak of _that report_. As I wrote of the left's relationship to the new leadership, "We're going to have to live with someone whose first instinct is to praise the government when they're doing well, and keep quiet when they're not." Prepared? What I was expecting was a leadership not unlike Ed Miliband's, something that at least meant well which the majority of the left could support at a remove. Unfortunately, Dear Keir is yet to touch even this low bar.
> 
> In policy terms, he writes in Sunday's _Observer_ about the failings of the Conservatives, and how Labour's "ambition for Britain must match the moment. Not merely fiddling with tax incentives or creating pots of money for towns to scrap over but creating an economy that works for everyone." One might point out this is exactly how Keir has spent his time in the Leader's chair. Attacking the Tories from the right over the minutiae of corporation tax rates, quibbling with the process and details of Coronavirus management, and only going on the offensive when either Marcus Rashford or teaching unions or SAGE have prepared the ground for him, this falls somewhat short of a functioning and effective opposition, let alone anything demonstrating ambition capable of rising to the occasion.
> 
> ...


----------



## hitmouse (Apr 5, 2021)

Counterpoint: what if Keir Starmer is Moses?


> Harris enthuses: “Some PMQs I could literally cry at how professional Keir is, how he gets the tone right and how he gets Boris Johnson in a knot.”
> ... “He’s a bit like Moses, isn’t he?” suggests Carolyn Harris. “He’s taking us out of one place, taking us to another, and we all have to go with him.”


----------



## Raheem (Apr 5, 2021)

Sounds more like a hijacker than Moses.

Anyway, Moses has been done.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Apr 5, 2021)

Keir Starmer apologises for hurt caused by visit to Jesus House church – LabourList
					

Keir Starmer has apologised for the "hurt" caused by his visit last week to a London church, Jesus House, with a senior pastor who has…




					labourlist.org


----------



## two sheds (Apr 5, 2021)

Apologies aren't enough for labour leaders though, as we've learned, permanently labelled a homophobe


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Apr 5, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Apologies aren't enough for labour leaders though, as we've learned, permanently labelled a homophobe



and will probably, by making this apology, manage to piss off the religious fundamental types as well...


----------



## two sheds (Apr 5, 2021)

yeh "sorry about the visit to the weirdoes people, it was a mistake  "


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 5, 2021)

I'm no longer willing to believe that Starmer is being useless by mistake. It has to be deliberate. Even a man choosing all his actions based on reading chicken entrails or rolling d&d dice would have got something right by now.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 5, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Apologies aren't enough for labour leaders though, as we've learned, permanently labelled a homophobe



An _electable_ homophobe though. Just like Boris 'bum boys' Johnson.


----------



## gosub (Apr 5, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Sounds more like a hijacker than Moses.
> 
> Anyway, Moses has been done.



Know somebody who got in a bit of trouble coz he tried to sell it on ebay as a joke.  Except there are serious collectors of political memorabilia who really wanted it and it turned out he lives less than 10 miles from the stone yard that made the thing and they thought it was genuine, plus he was working at The Sun at the time and it was absolutely nothing to with work.  Ended deleting his ebay account


----------



## Gadget88 (Apr 5, 2021)

Yep he isn’t opposing passports so yes his time is up


----------



## Humberto (Apr 6, 2021)

It's not though


----------



## Humberto (Apr 6, 2021)

Since when was it considered wise to not change anything and just acquiesce? If shit isn't working, change it. Selling out and admitting defeat is unconscionable. Astonishingly bad leader.


----------



## gosub (Apr 6, 2021)

But the Government has moved on vaccine passports. Putting it in the hands of Weatherspoon bouncers died on its arse. and  recent testing acceptance a sop to thems not vaccinated.  Holidays and festies is sort of understandable and I think we'll see illegal scene kicking it into gear in summer  anyway


----------



## redsquirrel (Apr 6, 2021)

vanya said:


> One Abysmal Year of Keir
> 
> 
> A full year since Labour returned to the mean and elected a man in a nice suit. Looking back at the occasion , this blog met Keir Starmer'...
> ...


Do you agree with the contention of the author that? 


> _It is an effect of class recomposition_, which expresses itself long age lines. By way of a quick explainer, since the expansion of the state after the war growing numbers of workers have been drawn into employment whose object is not the production of surplus value, and therefore profit, but the reproduction of the social relationships, institutions, and technologies of population management advanced capitalist societies depend on. Following the arguments of Italian post-Marxism, the character of their labour is _immaterial_. Their concern is the production of relationships, of data and knowledge, of care and socialisation processes.


And the the LP should organise on the basis of this class recomposition?


----------



## 19sixtysix (Apr 6, 2021)

Guardian announcing Hartlepool election will be lost this morning. Starmer will have nowhere to hide.

The hands of the leadership all over it.








						Labour’s selection in Hartlepool is a familiar story – with a new risky context
					

Managing selections is not new behaviour, but doing so in a way that maximises political danger is.




					www.newstatesman.com


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 6, 2021)

19sixtysix said:


> Guardian announcing Hartlepool election will be lost this morning. Starmer will have nowhere to hide.


The election was lost a long time ago. Political commentators John Torode and Greg Wallace said the Labour campaign was saccharin and half-baked, the presentation was appalling and the whole thing left a sickly taste in the mouth


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 6, 2021)

Toynbee getting the excuses in early at the groan. 


> he is polishing the party’s armour for when politics properly resumes



lol


----------



## TopCat (Apr 6, 2021)

DotCommunist said:


> Toynbee getting the excuses in early at the groan.
> 
> 
> lol


She cares not if labour loses.


----------



## JTG (Apr 6, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Counterpoint: what if Keir Starmer is Moses?


Harris there playing Lynn to Starmer's Alan


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 6, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Counterpoint: what if Keir Starmer is Moses?


Forty years in the wilderness beckons


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 6, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Forty years in the wilderness beckons


moses famously never reaches the promised land of course


----------



## keybored (Apr 6, 2021)




----------



## ska invita (Apr 6, 2021)

This sounds like I'm making it up but I genuinely dreamed about Sir Starmer last night: he was a headmaster and leading a desperate school assembly (taking place outdoors on a cold grey misty field) with his shit content after shit content falling flat and losing the school audience who were slowly drifting away in disinterest. It finished with him attempting to get the last few kids marching on the spot, but no one was really doing it properly.

Im a bit disturbed he's got into my subconscious


----------



## gosub (Apr 6, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> The election was lost a long time ago. Political commentators John Torode and Greg Wallace said the Labour campaign was saccharin and half-baked, the presentation was appalling and the whole thing left a sickly taste in the mouth



If he lost Hartlepool he probably would be fucked, but don't think New Statesman is saying that.   Personally think how the Holyrood elections go is the important one.  SNP will win, but how Labour does, particularly in relation to the Tories thats a thing


eta ooops Just seen the Suravtion poll


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 6, 2021)

gosub said:


> If he lost Hartlepool he probably would be fucked, but don't think New Statesman is saying that.   Personally think how the Holyrood elections go is the important one.  SNP will win, but how Labour does, particularly in relation to the Tories thats a thing


I'm with Torode and Wallace, he's made his own cake and now he's got to eat it. The proof of the pudding is in the eating and so on


----------



## hitmouse (Apr 6, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Forty years in the wilderness beckons


You could probably do a whole very bitter version of dayenu about his achievements - "no, really, it would have been quite fucking enough".


ska invita said:


> This sounds like I'm making it up but I genuinely dreamed about Sir Starmer last night: he was a headmaster and leading a desperate school assembly (taking place outdoors on a cold grey misty field) with his shit content after shit content falling flat and losing the school audience who were slowly drifting away in disinterest. It finished with him attempting to get the last few kids marching on the spot, but no one was really doing it properly.


I dreamed I saw Sir Starmer last night,
Alive as you and me.
Says I "But Keith, you're ten years dead"
"It's understandable that you might think that, but I am in fact still a living person, and a very forensic one at that" said he...


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 6, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> You could probably do a whole very bitter version of dayenu about his achievements - "no, really, it would have been quite fucking enough".
> 
> I dreamed I saw Sir Starmer last night,
> Alive as you and me.
> ...


After 40 days in the wilderness starmer wakes up to find his party's deserted him


----------



## brogdale (Apr 6, 2021)

DotCommunist said:


> Toynbee getting the excuses in early at the groan.
> 
> 
> lol


lol, indeed...


----------



## kabbes (Apr 6, 2021)

He’s polishing something alright, but I don’t think it’s armour


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 6, 2021)

If his powder gets any drier it'll be dust.


----------



## hitmouse (Apr 6, 2021)

Thinking about this today:


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 6, 2021)

brogdale said:


> lol, indeed...
> 
> View attachment 261940


I wouldn't put it past starmer to lead labour to fewer votes than they received in 2019


----------



## MickiQ (Apr 6, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> I wouldn't put it past starmer to lead labour to fewer votes than they received in 2019


Come a general election I'm pretty sure that they will get more, Corbyn was wildly popular with a small segment of the population and deeply unpopular amongst most of it.  Starmer is wildly popular with his followers but the general response to him seems to be 'meh'
I reckon Labour will win back some of the seats they lost in 2019 but I can't imagine them winning a GE.
If Labour lose in Hartlepool I can't see Starmer going but if it's combined with poor LE results then I can see much muttering amongst the ranks in the Labour Party.


----------



## two sheds (Apr 6, 2021)

Yes the papers generally alternated between "Corbyn terrorist supporter shock" stories and "Why is Corbyn so unpopular" stories.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 6, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> Come a general election I'm pretty sure that they will get more, Corbyn was wildly popular with a small segment of the population and deeply unpopular amongst most of it.  Starmer is wildly popular with his followers but the general response to him seems to be 'meh'
> I reckon Labour will win back some of the seats they lost in 2019 but I can't imagine them winning a GE.
> If Labour lose in Hartlepool I can't see Starmer going but if it's combined with poor LE results then I can see much muttering amongst the ranks in the Labour Party.


This would be the really shitty election in which Corbyn got more votes than the LP in 2005, 2010 and 2015


----------



## MickiQ (Apr 6, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> This would be the really shitty election in which Corbyn got more votes than the LP in 2005, 2010 and 2015


Labour got more votes in 2019 than the Tories did in 2010 as well which they won, are you suggesting there is some significance in that? There were also about a million and half more voters in 2019 than 2005 plus turnout was higher.  You also don't mention the 2017 election only 2 years earlier as opposed to 16. The Labour vote plummeted after that whilst the Tory one (who swapped out their leader) stayed steady. Pointing to a number at a point in time and saying this number is higher than another number at a different point in time and saying this proves X (ie Corbyn was popular) doesn't really work.
All the polls at the time tended to show considerable dislike of Corbyn amongst the public. A lot of the Labour Party must have thought that too, ALL the election leaflets I received in 2017 from Labour made no mention of his name at all, the 2019 ones did.
There did seem to be more support for Corbyn's policies than Corbyn himself, probably still is but they're tainted by association with him and are (sadly) unlikely to get resurrected any time soon.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 6, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> Labour got more votes in 2019 than the Tories did in 2010 as well which they won, are you suggesting there is some significance in that? There were also about a million and half more voters in 2019 than 2005 plus turnout was higher.  You also don't mention the 2017 election only 2 years earlier as opposed to 16. The Labour vote plummeted after that whilst the Tory one (who swapped out their leader) stayed steady. Pointing to a number at a point in time and saying this number is higher than another number at a different point in time and saying this proves X (ie Corbyn was popular) doesn't really work.
> All the polls at the time tended to show considerable dislike of Corbyn amongst the public. A lot of the Labour Party must have thought that too, ALL the election leaflets I received in 2017 from Labour made no mention of his name at all, the 2019 ones did.
> There did seem to be more support for Corbyn's policies than Corbyn himself, probably still is but they're tainted by association with him and are (sadly) unlikely to get resurrected any time soon.


The simple fact of the matter is that the scale of the disaster is exaggerated by people who for whatever reason want to make out Corbyn was supremely unpopular. I don't mention 2017 because believe it or not that's an election where labour attracted more votes than in 2019.


----------



## JTG (Apr 6, 2021)

I mean, Labour were plunging towards Pasokification until Corbyn, they're just going to continue that course now. Just continually spinning that big wheel to see which of their core votes they can alienate next in pursuit of pensioners who will never vote for them


----------



## redsquirrel (Apr 6, 2021)

JTG said:


> *I mean, Labour were plunging towards Pasokification until Corbyn,* they're just going to continue that course now.


How so? The 2005 and 2010 votes show that there is a significant Labour vote even under bad conditions. While FPTP exists the LP are going to continue to be one of the two major parties in England (and Wales).

(None of which means that Starmer is not useless and may even take a lower share of the vote of the electorate, but that is a far cry from the Pasokification that the French Socialists or German SDP have seen)


----------



## JTG (Apr 6, 2021)

redsquirrel said:


> How so? The 2005 and 2010 votes show that there is a significant Labour vote even under bad conditions. While FPTP exists the LP are going to continue to be one of the two major parties in England (and Wales).


Yeah they used to think the same in Scotland


----------



## redsquirrel (Apr 6, 2021)

Scottish politics allowed a re-arrangment process to occur, in part because there is a voting system other than FPTP. The same conditions do not exist in England. Where is the party that is going to eat the LP? The Greens?


----------



## JTG (Apr 6, 2021)

Well the UKIP/BP vote appears to be being consumed by the Tories in Hartlepool so there's that


----------



## agricola (Apr 6, 2021)

redsquirrel said:


> Scottish politics allowed a re-arrangment process to occur, in part because there is a voting system other than FPTP. The same conditions do not exist in England. Where is the party that is going to eat the LP? The Greens?



TBF the LP has been eating itself already, I am not sure another party needs to come along to join in the feasting.


----------



## redsquirrel (Apr 6, 2021)

JTG said:


> Well the UKIP/BP vote appears to be being consumed by the Tories in Hartlepool so there's that


How does that lead to Pasokification? Doing shit (and as bad as it is doing the LP is still polling ahead of its vote share in the 2019 election) is not the same as what Syriza have done to Pasok, the German Greens with the SDP, or the  the SNP to the LP in Scotland.

I dislike anti-toryism as a political tactic/rallying point but it would be daft to deny its base (simply look at the threads on U75). And the anti-Tory vote in England simply does not have an option other than the LP in all but a handful of seats. 2015 had the highest proportion of councils/councillors belonging to the two major parties for decades. Despite the LDs gains at the local level over the last 5 years there are still only 25 councils in England where a party other than Lab/Con hold a majority (all LD).


----------



## JTG (Apr 6, 2021)

Well we'll see


----------



## redsquirrel (Apr 6, 2021)

Also look at the Greens polling prior to 2019 compared with their final vote share. Like with the LDs in 2015 lots of people may be unenthused (or even dislike) Labour but they don't want the Torys back in.


----------



## PR1Berske (Apr 7, 2021)




----------



## BristolEcho (Apr 7, 2021)

I had a dream about him last night. Apparently I was working for him and it didn't go well as I got asked to leave.


----------



## rekil (Apr 7, 2021)

This starmer dream epidemic is more disturbing than my ones about bins, putting them out on the wrong day, putting wrong stuff in them etc.)


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Apr 7, 2021)

rekil said:


> This starmer dream epidemic is more disturbing than my ones about bins, putting them out on the wrong day, putting wrong stuff in them etc.)



which bin should you put kieth in, though?


----------



## gentlegreen (Apr 7, 2021)

Fucking hell. I logged into my Labour Party account earlier as I'm thinking of leaving (joined late 2019 - I thought someone should - even did one leaflet run for the election - but I lack enthusiasm)...
Then I was on the phone and a text came through inviting me to Zoom with Starmer and crashed the call !


----------



## rekil (Apr 7, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> which bin should you put kieth in, though?


I anticipate that this important question shall be resolved by a bin/starmer fever dream crossover any night now.


----------



## ska invita (Apr 7, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> which bin should you put kieth in, though?


wetwipes cant be recycled so go in general waste


----------



## lazythursday (Apr 7, 2021)

I have cancelled my direct debit but it's not been long enough yet for me to count as properly excommunicated - part of me wonders if he's going to get the knife in the back and I should pay up so I get a vote. But it's all pointless anyway isn't it, they aren't going to make the mistake of 2015 ever again in my lifetime.


----------



## ska invita (Apr 7, 2021)

lazythursday said:


> I have cancelled my direct debit but it's not been long enough yet for me to count as properly excommunicated - part of me wonders if he's going to get the knife in the back and I should pay up so I get a vote. But it's all pointless anyway isn't it, they aren't going to make the mistake of 2015 ever again in my lifetime.


if there is a challenge there will be an election
at which point if theres someone worth voting for you can always rejoin and vote

there will be no challenge


----------



## magneze (Apr 7, 2021)

If you're in a union you'll still get a vote AFAIK.


----------



## Rimbaud (Apr 7, 2021)

redsquirrel said:


> Scottish politics allowed a re-arrangment process to occur, in part because there is a voting system other than FPTP. The same conditions do not exist in England. Where is the party that is going to eat the LP? The Greens?



I think around 2015 it was a matter of time before the activity around anti-austerity formed a new party to the left of Labour. See the People's Assembly stuff and Left Unity project, there was definitely something building up there, but Corbyn's election as leader of the Labour Party led to most of the people involved in that getting involved with Labour and Momentum instead. 

There is a strong social-democratic tradition in this country and a failure of the Labour Party to represent that is what lost them Scotland, and will lose them England as soon as a viable alternative can emerge. Corbyn delayed that process by bringing anti-austerity activists back into the Labour Party.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 7, 2021)

magneze said:


> If you're in a union you'll still get a vote AFAIK.



Depends which union. Only member's of affiliated unions get a vote


----------



## hitmouse (Apr 7, 2021)

Rimbaud said:


> I think around 2015 it was a matter of time before the activity around anti-austerity formed a new party to the left of Labour. See the People's Assembly stuff and Left Unity project, there was definitely something building up there, but Corbyn's election as leader of the Labour Party led to most of the people involved in that getting involved with Labour and Momentum instead.


Not convinced of that tbh - did PA or LU even contest any elections? And if they did, how did their votes compare to, say, TUSC? I'm more enthusiastic about non-electoral stuff than electoral stuff, but even in those terms I think stuff was at a pretty low ebb around late 2014/early 2015 - was there even still anti-Bedroom Tax stuff going then? Or much anti-workfare stuff? As I remember it, it sort of feels like "anti-austerity" as a movement peaked in 2011 and was in decline ever since the pensions dispute collapsed.


Smokeandsteam said:


> Depends which union. Only member's of affiliated unions get a vote


Do you have to pay into the Labour Link fund as well? I think opting out means you don't get a vote, I could be wrong though.


----------



## Rimbaud (Apr 7, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Not convinced of that tbh - did PA or LU even contest any elections? And if they did, how did their votes compare to, say, TUSC? I'm more enthusiastic about non-electoral stuff than electoral stuff, but even in those terms I think stuff was at a pretty low ebb around late 2014/early 2015 - was there even still anti-Bedroom Tax stuff going then? Or much anti-workfare stuff? As I remember it, it sort of feels like "anti-austerity" as a movement peaked in 2011 and was in decline ever since the pensions dispute collapsed.
> 
> Do you have to pay into the Labour Link fund as well? I think opting out means you don't get a vote, I could be wrong though.



No they didn't contest any elections, but there were probably far more political activists outside the Labour Party than in it. It was only a matter of time before it coelesced into a viable political party - I think if Corbyn hadn't been elected as Labour leader this would have happened already, and it will probably happen within the next two electoral cycles now that they've returned to their old ways.

Edit to add: Like the ridiculous characterisation of the membership increasing 2.5 fold as being down to a conspiracy of literally hundreds of thousands Trotskyite entryists. When the "entryists" far outnumber the original party members (majority of whom backed Corbyn as well), that's a clear indicator that there's a large activist political base which will find expression one way or the other.


----------



## hitmouse (Apr 7, 2021)

Rimbaud said:


> No they didn't contest any elections, but there were probably far more political activists outside the Labour Party than in it. It was only a matter of time before it coelesced into a viable political party - I think if Corbyn hadn't been elected as Labour leader this would have happened already, and it will probably happen within the next two electoral cycles now that they've returned to their old ways.


I mean, I could well be wrong about this (I am very bad at predicting things, and basically thought Labour was already in terminal decline after they lost Scotland), but I think you might well be underestimating the obstacles of getting a new party going under FPTP. I think the history of Socialist Alliance/Respect/Left List/TUSC/No2EU shows how difficult that task can be.


----------



## ska invita (Apr 7, 2021)

I know a little about Left Unity. They spent approximately 2 years building the democratic model and software to make internal democracy horizontal, including online conferences etc. Slightly ahead of the curve of where we are now.
They were then at the process of producing policy positions, which included online voting for members.
Then Corbyn became leader.
Would it have got far? No.
I cant remember if anyone ever stood for office anywhere. It doesn't matter if they did tbh.
I do think that the structural work that went into it would be very useful to take down off the shelf for any future outfit.
Its a different landscape now than it was then. There is definitely room for a new party of this ilk.
I expect once Covid crisis passes something will arise.


hitmouse said:


> I'm more enthusiastic about non-electoral stuff than electoral stuff


We really need both. The electoral bit is particularly depressing, masochistic and to some degree pointless, in the UK but that's where we are. I still think it is necessary.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 7, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Do you have to pay into the Labour Link fund as well? I think opting out means you don't get a vote, I could be wrong though.



In Unite part of your subs goes into the political fund. You have to actively opt out of the affiliation to Labour part of the fund. I opted out for years but then went back in to vote for Corbyn. Where a member ‘opts out’ the subs remain the same but the money is used for non LP political campaigning. Not sure how it works in other unions.


----------



## redsquirrel (Apr 7, 2021)

Rimbaud said:


> I think around 2015 it was a matter of time before the activity around anti-austerity formed a new party to the left of Labour. See the People's Assembly stuff and Left Unity project, there was definitely something building up there, but Corbyn's election as leader of the Labour Party led to most of the people involved in that getting involved with Labour and Momentum instead.
> 
> There is a strong social-democratic tradition in this country and a failure of the Labour Party to represent that is what lost them Scotland, and will lose them England as soon as a viable alternative can emerge. Corbyn delayed that process by bringing anti-austerity activists back into the Labour Party.


What hitmouse said. The attack on the LP from a party to the left (or the right) has been raised time and time again - see the list hitmouse gave. It has never gone anywhere for one very good reason the LP has a huge weapon in its armament - it is the only realistic alternative to the Tories for most people.

If you are going to put your eggs into the basket of electoralism at least start from sensible point. The LP has always been incredibly effective at protecting itself from challenges and FPTP gives it a huge advantage. I'd love it if the NIP (or similar) gave it a kicking but the replacement of the LP by another party in the short/medium term is fantasy.


----------



## Serge Forward (Apr 7, 2021)

And also because first past the post favours a two party system, so unless Labour completely disintegrates and some other party takes its place, you're stuck with same old shit rather than a bit different but still shit.


----------



## redsquirrel (Apr 7, 2021)

Yep. And even in under PR systems that is pretty much the case. OK Pasok were broken by Syriza, but then what are Syriza now but a new version of Pasok (even containing some of the same people). The German Greens are displacing the the SDP as the centre-left option but are their politics actually any different? The odds are they'll be (back) in a coalition with the CDU at the end of the year.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 7, 2021)

Lordy.


----------



## ska invita (Apr 7, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Lordy.
> 
> View attachment 262205


i feel memes coming on


----------



## 1927 (Apr 7, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Lordy.
> 
> View attachment 262205


Is this the remake of Rita,Sue and Bob too?


----------



## magneze (Apr 7, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Lordy.
> 
> View attachment 262205


That awkward moment when someone Google's you.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 7, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Lordy.
> 
> View attachment 262205


That awkward moment when man in his 50s tries to be down with the young uns


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 7, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Lordy.
> 
> View attachment 262205


"You're right, he is the man my parents warned me about"


----------



## Humberto (Apr 7, 2021)

I think for Labour to win they have to _oppose_ i.e. they have to unabashedly hate the Tories and its leading lights. The PLP get pushed by them onto the back foot constantly. E.g. Labour's 'culpability' in 'spending recklessly' making brutal austerity 'inevitable'. This was accepted by the Labour front bench. Or Labour is 'unpatriotic', so they must change tack and chase the Tories agenda again. How about "Labour can't be trusted to retaliate to a nuclear attack", they are 'soft' on crime, immigration, welfare... They are 'too economically left-wing' and will damage the economy/businesses/Stock Markets. So the PLP tries to appear 'hard' but is always on the back foot dancing to the Tories' tune. The Tories are proudly none of the things that they accuse Labour of, while Labour is torn between trying to offer an alternative and not being sunk before they have even started to make their case to the eloctorate. They also definitely lack authenticity (how could they not?) and in my view don't have the guts or the smarts to answer back effectively.

The PLP will never win on its knees, being bullyragged by the unabashed Bullingdon set. They can't act or lie their way into power either. Certainly not from that position. They have to start again (with or without a new leader), they have to be a lot bolder, and they have to get off their knees and hate the Tories. It's a long way back. I don't think Starmer is the man for the job, but I see no imminent prospect of a leadership change so the chance is there for him if he can at least try.


----------



## gosub (Apr 8, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Thinking about this today:
> View attachment 261990


Didn't his predecessor study manhole covers as a hobby


----------



## Shechemite (Apr 8, 2021)




----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 8, 2021)

MadeInBedlam said:


>



Yeh that worked well at the vigil for Sarah Everard.

Who do you turn to when it's the cops who're antisocial elements?


----------



## Dystopiary (Apr 8, 2021)

Well...


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 8, 2021)

Strange how the labour right accuse the labour left of cosying up to the Tories and undermining the party Labour cries foul over union poll showing Tories on track to take Hartlepool when they've a proud and much more luminous record of just that


----------



## splonkydoo (Apr 8, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Strange how the labour right accuse the labour left of cosying up to the Tories and undermining the party Labour cries foul over union poll showing Tories on track to take Hartlepool when they've a proud and much more luminous record of just that



The Labour right:

1. delusion & projection
2. flags
3. ?????????? 
4. a labour victory


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 8, 2021)

splonkydoo said:


> The Labour right:
> 
> 1. delusion & projection
> 2. flags
> ...


4 is optional, just as long as the left don't win


----------



## Wilf (Apr 8, 2021)

I never quite know what 'released to' newspaper x  means when when the information appears on Survation's own website - presumably the Times given 24 hours advance notice?  If that's the case, I'm not sure why the CWU chose the Times?
Survation | First Hartlepool phone poll has Conservatives in driving seat | Survation

Giving it to the Times is a gift to the Labour right and gives them something to yap about.  Of course that yapping amounts to shouting 'don't tell him Pike' about the actual data. And of course when it comes to having a relationship with the Murdoch press to undermine a Labour leader... In fact so faithful and loving I'm surprised the Archbishop of Canterbury didn't mention it in his Easter service.


----------



## Quote (Apr 8, 2021)

Picturing someone from the PLP giving an interview about the lack of unity whilst a dartboard with a picture of Corbyn on it still hangs unnoticed in the corner.

“Where was I ... oh yes, unity. It’s very important you know.”


----------



## two sheds (Apr 8, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> if you look at the inspector montalbano wiki there's a 15th series this year. but not if you look at List of Inspector Montalbano episodes - Wikipedia. they're all available via the bbc iplayer (except the possible fifteenth series)


Young Montelbano is on again  ❤ , just watched episode 1. I now feel guilty - it's one of the few things I actually watch to keep up with the subtitles, I could have taught myself Italian by now


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 8, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Young Montelbano is on again  ❤ , just watched episode 1. I now feel guilty - it's one of the few things I actually watch to keep up with the subtitles, I could have taught myself Italian by now


yeh i've seen all the young ones too 

i'd love to get to sicily this year


----------



## danny la rouge (Apr 9, 2021)




----------



## Mr.Bishie (Apr 9, 2021)

Fuck off Kieth.


----------



## TopCat (Apr 9, 2021)

Loathsome.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 9, 2021)

Oleaginous, obsequious forelock tugging git.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 10, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> That awkward moment when man in his 50s tries to be down with the young uns



Corbyn's 108 and the yoof loved him.


----------



## TopCat (Apr 10, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> That awkward moment when man in his 50s tries to be down with the young uns


I am that cool guy.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 10, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I am that cool guy.


Yeh but you don't try


----------



## mauvais (Apr 10, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> In Unite part of your subs goes into the political fund. You have to actively opt out of the affiliation to Labour part of the fund. I opted out for years but then went back in to vote for Corbyn. Where a member ‘opts out’ the subs remain the same but the money is used for non LP political campaigning. Not sure how it works in other unions.


Boring point: the Unite subs do reduce if you opt out.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 10, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh but you don't try


Obvious meme archaeology...


----------



## JTG (Apr 12, 2021)

Today: elementary English history with Sir Kieth


----------



## TopCat (Apr 12, 2021)

Fucking puke.


----------



## JTG (Apr 12, 2021)

An illustration of the people's faith in the monarchy not faltering:


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 12, 2021)

JTG said:


> An illustration of the people's faith in the monarchy not faltering:
> 
> View attachment 262933


it's a pity paul eddington's dead because otherwise he could have played colonel hacker in some caroline 'yes minister'


----------



## brogdale (Apr 12, 2021)

Fucking toadying cuntface


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 12, 2021)

JTG said:


> Today: elementary English history with Sir Kieth



of all the people who frequent westminster sir keir starmer's nose was always brownest


----------



## brogdale (Apr 12, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> of all the people who frequent westminster sir keir starmer's nose was always brownest


And whilst we're considering colours...the truest of true blue Labour.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 12, 2021)

brogdale said:


> And whilst we're considering colours...the truest of true blue Labour.


they'll sing the blue flag once a year


----------



## brogdale (Apr 12, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> they'll sing the blue flag once a year


_Though cowards pinch and traitors smear..._


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 12, 2021)

brogdale said:


> _Though cowards pinch and traitors smear..._


tho leader lie and lie and leer


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Apr 12, 2021)




----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 12, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> it's cowardly focus group politics
> 
> they don't want to be seen as supporting tory policies, but they don't want the 'labour soft on law and order / terrorists / criminals' bollocks that the tories and their friends in the press will come out with if they vote against it



Focus group politics worked for the Blair/Mandelson axis, because it asked a few difficult questions, alongside all the rimming of capitalism. Starmer's focus grouping STARTS from a position of asking emolient questions to which policy-makers have already got answers.


----------



## TopCat (Apr 13, 2021)

The guardian was lying recently about senior labour mp’s demanding sir Keir get a “big figure” in to assist him, add gravitas and intellectual weight. I was puzzled initially as to who had planted this story about themselves? 
Turns out it was  Mandelson. Ho ho. Big figure.


----------



## JTG (Apr 13, 2021)

Breaking: "I didn't expect leopards to eat MY face" says leader of Leopards Eating People's Faces Party

It's absolutely Wes Streeting btw


----------



## killer b (Apr 14, 2021)

this one is good.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 14, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> which bin should you put kieth in, though?



The one with the fish heads, soiled cat litter & beyond-mouldy veg in.


----------



## David Clapson (Apr 14, 2021)

Do you think he might be ill? Depression maybe? His performance at PMQs today was so feeble that I honestly think someone else needs to take over.


----------



## TopCat (Apr 14, 2021)

David Clapson said:


> Do you think he might be ill? Depression maybe? His performance at PMQs today was so feeble that I honestly think someone else needs to take over.


Which big hitter do you recommend?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 14, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Which big hitter do you recommend?


Not really anyone of any great calibre in the plp. Not sure if there's even anyone of the standard of Kinnock


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 14, 2021)

David Clapson said:


> Do you think he might be ill? Depression maybe? His performance at PMQs today was so feeble that I honestly think someone else needs to take over.


That's that then sir keir starmer has run out of time


----------



## TopCat (Apr 14, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Not really anyone of any great calibre in the plp. Not sure if there's even anyone of the standard of Kinnock


That’s a low bar. Any labour mp who didn’t strangle their cat for practice would be preferable to Kinnock.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 14, 2021)

TopCat said:


> That’s a low bar. Any labour mp who didn’t strangle their cat for practice would be preferable to Kinnock.


Not one of the current crop could do to the right wingers what Kinnock did to militant


----------



## eatmorecheese (Apr 14, 2021)

Anyone on their feet and dressed would create a more genuine impression than Sir Keef.


----------



## JTG (Apr 14, 2021)

David Clapson said:


> Do you think he might be ill? Depression maybe? His performance at PMQs today was so feeble that I honestly think someone else needs to take over.


Are you suggesting he looks tired?


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Apr 14, 2021)

the fabian society are "crowd-sourcing ideas for what Labour should do in the next 12 months." 

(open to anyone not just members)

i must think of some suggestions...


----------



## Funky_monks (Apr 14, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> the fabian society are "crowd-sourcing ideas for what Labour should do in the next 12 months."
> 
> (open to anyone not just members)
> 
> i must think of some suggestions...



I take it there is no "get in the sea" option?


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Apr 14, 2021)

Funky_monks said:


> I take it there is no "get in the sea" option?



it's free text not multiple choice



(although i have some concerns about marine pollution)


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 14, 2021)

JTG said:


> Today: elementary English history with Sir Kieth




The full speech is here on Labour List. 









						Keir Starmer: Prince Philip had “life lived in strong and vigorous brushstrokes” – LabourList
					

Keir Starmer has paid tribute to Prince Philip's "life lived in strong and vigorous brushstrokes", Mark Drakeford to "an extraordinary life, remarkably lived" and Anas…




					labourlist.org
				




Its embarrassing to read. 



> Starmer praised the Duke of Edinburgh’s “ceaseless optimism about the country Britain can be, and what the British people can achieve” and said it was right that the Commons was recognising “the virtues he personified”.


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 14, 2021)

From Labour List article. Starmer says of Phillip.



> In supporting the Humble Address, I would like to echo the remarks made by the Prime Minister. And, on behalf of my party, to come together today in appreciation of a life well-lived. A life of service and of duty. A life that shaped modern Britain and provided much-needed stability to our national story.



Starmer led Labour Party has lost my vote for May London election on basis of his views on monarchy.

Historically speaking I don't see how Starmer can justify this assertion.


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 14, 2021)

Keir Starmer: Prince Philip had “life lived in strong and vigorous brushstrokes” – LabourList
					

Keir Starmer has paid tribute to Prince Philip's "life lived in strong and vigorous brushstrokes", Mark Drakeford to "an extraordinary life, remarkably lived" and Anas…




					labourlist.org
				




I see Starmer did Duke of Edinburgh award on Dartmoor like I did. 

The one think I can thank Phillip for is the Duke of Edinburgh Award. 

At my school iPlymouth College you either did DofE award or joined the Combined Cadet Corp. 

DofE award was refuge for the malingerers, the unfit and those of not sound political views ( not believing the Tory party was the natural party of government). Otherwise we would have had to be in CCC. 

Made clear in school unofficially that first choice should be volunteering for CCC. DofE Awards was looked down on.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 15, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> View attachment 262432


Wonder if he's going to shag the Cenotaph this year?


----------



## Wilf (Apr 15, 2021)

TopCat said:


> The guardian was lying recently about senior labour mp’s demanding sir Keir get a “big figure” in to assist him, add gravitas and intellectual weight. I was puzzled initially as to who had planted this story about themselves?
> Turns out it was  Mandelson. Ho ho. Big figure.


The Big Figure? Played drums with Dr Feelgood.


----------



## David Clapson (Apr 15, 2021)

The Times did a surprisingly supportive interview, suggesting he's been underestimated and would be doing brilliantly if not for the pandemic.









						Keir Starmer: ‘I’m not like Boris Johnson. There’s almost nothing we have in common’
					

Here’s a trick question. Which of the following politicians has the least natural charisma and easy warmth? Is it a) Hillary Clinton, b) John Major, c) Keir Sta




					www.thetimes.co.uk
				




Paywall can be bypassed with -









						GitHub - iamadamdev/bypass-paywalls-chrome: Bypass Paywalls web browser extension for Chrome and Firefox.
					

Bypass Paywalls web browser extension for Chrome and Firefox. - GitHub - iamadamdev/bypass-paywalls-chrome: Bypass Paywalls web browser extension for Chrome and Firefox.




					github.com
				











						GitHub - iamadamdev/bypass-paywalls-firefox: Bypass Paywalls for Firefox
					

Bypass Paywalls for Firefox. Contribute to iamadamdev/bypass-paywalls-firefox development by creating an account on GitHub.




					github.com


----------



## BobDavis (Apr 15, 2021)

David Clapson said:


> Paywall can be bypassed with -
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Checkout can be bypassed at Tesco as well.


----------



## BobDavis (Apr 15, 2021)

Labour need to keep pushing the sleaze aspect. It worked for Blair.


----------



## maomao (Apr 15, 2021)

BobDavis said:


> Labour need to keep pushing the sleaze aspect. It worked for Blair.


I think the expenses scandals after that just reinforced the widespread (and correct) opinion that 'they're all at it'.


----------



## andysays (Apr 15, 2021)

BobDavis said:


> Labour need to keep pushing the sleaze aspect. It worked for Blair.


"the same policies as the Tories, but with less sleaze" doesn't sound that great a pitch to me, TBH


----------



## BobDavis (Apr 15, 2021)

maomao said:


> I think the expenses scandals after that just reinforced the widespread (and correct) opinion that 'they're all at it'.


Yes. Every time I present winning argument to a Tory voter that they should in fact be voting Labour their inevitable parting riposte is “they are all as bad as each other anyway”. The amounts of money involved are huge though & voters need to make the connection with their tax money in countless millions going directly into private bank accounts of the already wealthy.
Labour need to keep pushing this relentlessly.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 15, 2021)

David Clapson said:


> The Times did a surprisingly supportive interview, suggesting he's been underestimated and would be doing brilliantly if not for the pandemic.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well of course the tory press loves him, he's an absolute gift to them.


----------



## NoXion (Apr 15, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Well of course the tory press loves him, he's an absolute gift to them.



They're very inclusive when it comes to invertebrates being leaders of the opposition.


----------



## JTG (Apr 15, 2021)

Labour need to stop being Tory melts tbh


----------



## Steel Icarus (Apr 15, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> the fabian society are "crowd-sourcing ideas for what Labour should do in the next 12 months."
> 
> (open to anyone not just members)
> 
> i must think of some suggestions...


"All your answers will feature in a Fabian Society paper setting out the crowd-sourced options and ideas we receive – and we’ll make sure the Labour leadership gets a copy."

Lol


----------



## David Clapson (Apr 15, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Well of course the tory press loves him, he's an absolute gift to them.


They don't 'love' him in the way they 'loved' Corbyn. He's someone they could do business with...a centrist. Electable. Which is a start.


----------



## hitmouse (Apr 15, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> The full speech is here on Labour List.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


"strong and vigorous brushstrokes" is a great one for the next profanisaurus. "Come on Keir, are you ready to come out and do your big speech?" "Nearly, I just need to finish off this strong and vigorous brushstroke..."


----------



## ska invita (Apr 15, 2021)

BobDavis said:


> Labour need to keep pushing the sleaze aspect. It worked for Blair.


The very idea that this needs saying as if its some kind of _strategy_ makes me despair
DO YOUR JOB YOU CUNTS    








TopCat said:


> The guardian was lying recently about senior labour mp’s demanding sir Keir get a “big figure” in to assist him, add gravitas and intellectual weight. I was puzzled initially as to who had planted this story about themselves?
> Turns out it was  Mandelson. Ho ho. Big figure.


there are no big figures in the Labour Party. Perhaps on one level this is a good thing, a cutting back of centrist dead wood, current batch of shit mps all withering on the vine...? Hope springs


----------



## agricola (Apr 15, 2021)

BobDavis said:


> Labour need to keep pushing the sleaze aspect. It worked for Blair.



Absolutely - for a start its demonstrably true, its also effective at winding people up and most of all it would allow them to present an argument that the criticism they (Labour) get is because they want to fix it.  Obviously whether Starmer does that is doubtful.


----------



## David Clapson (Apr 15, 2021)

Empty Parliament means no big figures anywhere except the few Tory ministers who are 'leading' us through the swamp. When the pandemic is under control I'm sure the Labour front bench will have a publicity blitz.


----------



## bellaozzydog (Apr 15, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> Keir Starmer: Prince Philip had “life lived in strong and vigorous brushstrokes” – LabourList
> 
> 
> Keir Starmer has paid tribute to Prince Philip's "life lived in strong and vigorous brushstrokes", Mark Drakeford to "an extraordinary life, remarkably lived" and Anas…
> ...


Thin choices indeed


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 15, 2021)

Starmer's allowed to go with the Cameron/Greensill thing because Johnson has already decided to run with it himself, presumably as a way of getting back at his old adversary and/or an excuse to lay into the civil service.


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 15, 2021)

Was this Duke of Edinburgh award thing his own idea, or did some - may allah forgive me for uttering this word - courtier come up with it themselves?


----------



## bellaozzydog (Apr 15, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Starmer's allowed to go with the Cameron/Greensill thing because Johnson has already decided to run with it himself, presumably as a way of getting back at his old adversary and/or an excuse to lay into the civil service.


Cameron is the Conservatives lizard tail, left wriggling for us to pounce on while the actual lizard fucks off and continues to be a despicable lizard


apologies to all herpetologists and lizard genus for the metaphor


----------



## ska invita (Apr 15, 2021)

Idris2002 said:


> Was this Duke of Edinburgh award thing his own idea, or did some - may allah forgive me for uttering this word - courtier come up with it themselves?


he worked really really really hard to set it all up, obvs.


----------



## elbows (Apr 15, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> "strong and vigorous brushstrokes" is a great one for the next profanisaurus. "Come on Keir, are you ready to come out and do your big speech?" "Nearly, I just need to finish off this strong and vigorous brushstroke..."


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 15, 2021)

David Clapson said:


> They don't 'love' him in the way they 'loved' Corbyn. He's someone they could do business with...a centrist. Electable. Which is a start.



The FT did series of articles on Corbyn/ McDonnell economic policies before last election. Impression I got was that they took them seriously as a viable option. So someone they could do business with. 

Starmer when seeking election as leader made 10 pledges. 









						10 Pledges | Keir Starmer
					

My promise to you is that I will maintain our radical values and work tirelessly to get Labour in to power – so that we can advance the interests of the people our party was created to serve. Based on the moral case for socialism, here is where I stand. 1. Economic justice Increase income …




					keirstarmer.com
				




These basically promised to keep Corbyn policies on nationalisation, green new deal and keep many of Corbyn radical policies.

So when you say Starmer is a centrist do you mean he should drop his pledges?


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 15, 2021)

Double post.


----------



## ska invita (Apr 15, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> These basically promised to keep Corbyn policies on nationalisation, green new deal and keep many of Corbyn radical policies.So when you say Starmer is a centrist do you mean he should drop his pledges?


Few expect him to keep to that promise. For example on nationalisation the whispers are all will be dropped, though rail may be kept in the manifesto - which in itself doesnt mean it would be enacted if Labour win.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 15, 2021)

Drakeford, the MP and Senedd candidate took him down to the beach for fish and chips...somehow he manages to look like some sort of posh undertaker who has never eaten anything without a plate & cutlery.   

Bacon sandwich next?


----------



## JTG (Apr 15, 2021)

David Clapson said:


> Electable. Which is a start.


No he isn't


----------



## elbows (Apr 15, 2021)

JTG said:


> No he isn't



My Mum initially bought into the electability argument but abandoned it months ago due to his dismal and uninspiring performances, the flag shit and the obvious lack of interesting policies.


----------



## elbows (Apr 15, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Drakeford, the MP and Senedd candidate took him down to the beach for fish and chips...somehow he manages to look like some sort of posh undertaker who has never eaten anything without a plate & cutlery.



He is staring in dismay at a fishcake that is demonstrating more backbone than he has.


----------



## JTG (Apr 15, 2021)

elbows said:


> My Mum initially bought into the electability argument but abandoned it months ago due to his dismal and uninspiring performances, the flag shit and the obvious lack of interesting policies.


The only substance the phrase has is to identify someone as fitting into a very narrow set of permissable conservative values which stand zero chance of delivering any meaningful change whatsoever. 

Beyond that it's completely meaningless and centrists have been allowed to get away without defining what they think is going to make people actually want to elect this dreary man and his vacuous shadow cabinet of nonentities. 

Just repeating the word "electable" over and over again does not make it so, especially given all of the evidence we have so far


----------



## two sheds (Apr 15, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> The FT did series of articles on Corbyn/ McDonnell economic policies before last election. Impression I got was that they took them seriously as a viable option. So someone they could do business with.
> 
> Starmer when seeking election as leader made 10 pledges.
> 
> ...



I've not heard him mention any of them since he got in. He also said he was going to unify the party, he dropped that promise as soon as he got in, why should he keep those?


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 15, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Drakeford, the MP and Senedd candidate took him down to the beach for fish and chips...somehow he manages to look like some sort of posh undertaker who has never eaten anything without a plate & cutlery.
> 
> Bacon sandwich next?



Do you think Starmer confused mushy peas for guacamole like his hero Mandelson did after visiting a chip shop?


----------



## brogdale (Apr 15, 2021)

Sprocket. said:


> Do you think Starmer confused mushy peas for guacamole like his hero Mandelson did after visiting a chip shop?


That never fails to raise a giggle, apocryphal or not.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Apr 15, 2021)

two sheds said:


> He also said he was going to unify the party



... with the tories


----------



## agricola (Apr 15, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Drakeford, the MP and Senedd candidate took him down to the beach for fish and chips...somehow he manages to look like some sort of posh undertaker who has never eaten anything without a plate & cutlery.
> 
> Bacon sandwich next?




A shame his handlers didn't realise that chips, gravy and two scallops would have had much more of a positive impact with the labouring classes.


----------



## steveseagull (Apr 16, 2021)

So Keith has taken his party into the 20s. Three points less than the General Election defeat with a compliant media. Well done Keith. Top effort.


----------



## magneze (Apr 16, 2021)

Less a "vaccine bounce" more a "keith droop".


----------



## Funky_monks (Apr 16, 2021)

David Clapson said:


> They don't 'love' him in the way they 'loved' Corbyn. He's someone they could do business with...a centrist. Electable. Which is a start.


You mean he's brushed his hair, dreseses "business casual", is a London based member of the establishment and who's poll ratings are dropping off a cliff?

That kind of electable?


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Apr 16, 2021)

Not sure how the idea of a vaccine bounce explains the loss of support to parties other than the Tories.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 16, 2021)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> Not sure how the idea of a vaccine bounce explains the loss of support to parties other than the Tories.


when does it stop being a bounce?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 16, 2021)

Funky_monks said:


> You mean he's brushed his hair, dreseses "business casual", is a London based member of the establishment and who's poll ratings are dropping off a cliff?
> 
> That kind of electable?


the only way out of this with any dignity for sir keir starmer is to throw himself off a cliff taking boris johnson with him. or jumping off the reichenbach falls with bj.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 16, 2021)

Labour's polling numbers under Keith 'Electable' Starmer continuing to nosedive I see.


----------



## andysays (Apr 16, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Labour's polling numbers under Keith 'Electable' Starmer continuing to nosedive I see.


It's obviously not him that's the problem, it's because he hasn't purged enough dangerous lefties yet...


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 16, 2021)

Idris2002 said:


> Was this Duke of Edinburgh award thing his own idea, or did some - may allah forgive me for uttering this word - courtier come up with it themselves?



Good question and got me looking at history of the award. As I did all of it I found the history interesting.

It was developed by John Hunt and Kurt Hahn. 

John Hunt was a somewhat maverick ex army officer and climber. Kurt Hahn was German Jewish educationalist. He saw the first world war and the rise of Hitler. Had to leave Germany due to his vocal opposition to Hitler early on.

His views on educating young people were influenced by what he saw as the corrupting influence of modern life on the young. Understandable as he witnessed horrors of WW1 and the descent into Fascism of his homeland.

I now see why no uniform or membership was required for participating in Duke of Edinburgh award. 

His philosophy was about developing "education for democracy".









						Kurt Hahn - Wikipedia
					






					en.m.wikipedia.org
				




This fits in with how I felt when doing the award. My school was quite right wing and somehow I felt DofE award did not quite fit in it. I liked it. No uniform , not competitive. Learnt to work with others to complete the outward bound section. 
.
I say its one of those slightly maverick things that slips through the net every so often.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 16, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Labour's polling numbers under Keith 'Electable' Starmer continuing to nosedive I see.



It’s quite impressive that he’s managed it without any attention or hammering from the press. Just imagine where Kieth could take things with a bit of scrutiny and media led attacks....

On a more serious matter, at which point do those who continue to invest time and energy in the British Labour Party accept that the millions of - mainly working class - votes that Labour have hemorrhaged between 1997-2021 are never coming back, or at the very best are not coming back in the numbers that would be required?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 16, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> On a more serious matter, at which point do those who continue to invest time and energy in the British Labour Party accept that the millions of - mainly working class - votes that Labour have hemorrhaged between 1997-2021 are never coming back, or at the very best are not coming back in the numbers that would be required?



If they were capable of figuring that out they'd have done it by now.


----------



## Knotted (Apr 16, 2021)

I enjoy the schadenfreude at Starmer's Labour as much as anybody, but for the sake of balance YouGov are giving Labour particularly poor pollings at the minute, that's not quite reflected in the other polls.


----------



## hitmouse (Apr 16, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Drakeford, the MP and Senedd candidate took him down to the beach for fish and chips...somehow he manages to look like some sort of posh undertaker who has never eaten anything without a plate & cutlery.


As politician social media chip lols go, it's got a way to go before it can live up to the classic Scottish tory six chip twat:


(Was that really only September 2020? It feels like such a long time ago.)


----------



## JTG (Apr 16, 2021)

Funky_monks said:


> You mean he's brushed his hair, dreseses "business casual", is a London based member of the establishment and who's poll ratings are dropping off a cliff?
> 
> That kind of electable?


Magic Stepdad


----------



## killer b (Apr 16, 2021)

Knotted said:


> I enjoy the schadenfreude at Starmer's Labour as much as anybody, but for the sake of balance YouGov are giving Labour particularly poor pollings at the minute, that's not quite reflected in the other polls.


everyone else is hovering just below 10% pretty much, which is where Yougov are mostly too.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 16, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> It’s quite impressive that he’s managed it without any attention or hammering from the press. Just imagine where Kieth could take things with a bit of scrutiny and media led attacks....
> 
> On a more serious matter, at which point do those who continue to invest time and energy in the British Labour Party accept that the millions of - mainly working class - votes that Labour have hemorrhaged between 1997-2021 are never coming back, or at the very best are not coming back in the numbers that would be required?


This.  Seems to me Labour are just about 'inert' now.  They don't even have the Blair's grab the middle classes and hope the working class will stay loyal approach. There's even less of Miliband's apologetic attempts to vaguely do ... whatever it was, cast in stone.  I don't get a sense that Labour are interacting with, creating a rapport or seriously talking to, _any _particular constituency.  The blue wall shows the old working class = in a union = vote Labour has gone, so they've lost many of the old channels of communication to core voters.  But in the absence of that there's no obvious project in play of any sort other than loyalty to the PM, patriotism and, erm, that's it.  Historical hyperbole is easy, but I've never seen Labour as such a flabby formless thing as they are today.  And yes, why would anybody waste their time with that.


----------



## Knotted (Apr 16, 2021)

Even more seriously for their chances, they aren't disrupting the Tories' electoral coalition. Their opposition is opportunistic and usually just sounds like karping.


----------



## Leighsw2 (Apr 16, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Few expect him to keep to that promise. For example on nationalisation the whispers are all will be dropped, though rail may be kept in the manifesto - which in itself doesnt mean it would be enacted if Labour win.


My memory - which may be faulty - was that rail was in the 1997 manifesto. Subsequently dropped because 'it would cost too much'. Labour went on to spend billions over the next 13 years trying to make privatisation work....


----------



## Leighsw2 (Apr 16, 2021)

brogdale said:


> That never fails to raise a giggle, apocryphal or not.


As I recall, the apocryphal chipshop was in Hartlepool. Don't you love the synchronicity?


----------



## BobDavis (Apr 16, 2021)

I think right now with the pandemic & the vaccination programme going ok people are seeing little more than just that. They don’t want the boat rocking they just want life to get back to normal. It difficult to oppose much the government is doing beyond the pandemic response. The high death rate has happened & is now much lower. I am ok to bide my time at the moment & judge Labour’s performance much nearer to the next GE.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Apr 16, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Scottish tory six chip twat:





i must have been busy that week and not seen it at the time...


----------



## killer b (Apr 16, 2021)

BobDavis said:


> the next GE.


wouldn't be surprised if they call one this autumn with these numbers.


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 16, 2021)

Have any other Unite members been bombarded with requests to represent the union with the Labour Party in their area? 
 I have had five emails in the last two weeks saying my support is needed as the country slips further to the right.  I have also been promised the opportunity to join said Labour Party, complete with application form.
Strange they didn’t want my input fifteen years ago.


----------



## two sheds (Apr 16, 2021)

Sprocket. said:


> Have any other Unite members been bombarded with requests to represent the union with the Labour Party in their area?
> I have had five emails in the last two weeks saying my support is needed as the country slips further to the right.  I have also been promised the opportunity to join said Labour Party, complete with application form.
> Strange they didn’t want my input fifteen years ago.



Yes  also from the Labour Party itself wanting me to stand in local elections even though I've resigned. 

They're not proud are they


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 16, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Yes
> They're not proud are they



Definitely, also obvious they don’t keep records.

I’m quite chuffed that I sent an email cancelling my membership of the Labour Party from the People’s Republic of China.


----------



## JTG (Apr 16, 2021)

BobDavis said:


> I think right now with the pandemic & the vaccination programme going ok people are seeing little more than just that. They don’t want the boat rocking they just want life to get back to normal. It difficult to oppose much the government is doing beyond the pandemic response. The high death rate has happened & is now much lower. I am ok to bide my time at the moment & judge Labour’s performance much nearer to the next GE.


This definitely explains the uptick in support for the Greens


----------



## Wilf (Apr 16, 2021)

Leighsw2 said:


> As I recall, the apocryphal chipshop was in Hartlepool. Don't you love the synchronicity?


Granita Sur La Tees(side)


----------



## Wilf (Apr 16, 2021)

BobDavis said:


> I think right now with the pandemic & the vaccination programme going ok people are seeing little more than just that. They don’t want the boat rocking they just want life to get back to normal. It difficult to oppose much the government is doing beyond the pandemic response. The high death rate has happened & is now much lower. I am ok to bide my time at the moment & judge Labour’s performance much nearer to the next GE.


It's hard to imagine labour's numbers getting worse, but I think they could.  _*If *_the vaccination programme allows the economy and society to stay something akin to 'open', there'll be a splurge of consumerism from those who were paid throughout the pandemic but had nothing to spend it on.  And some of those who lost their jobs will find their way back to some kind of employment.  Masses of problems, long term debt, rampant inequality, but Labour looking even more irrelevant.  Starmer left humping a flag pole and resigning after the next gen election.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 16, 2021)

killer b said:


> wouldn't be surprised if they call one this autumn with these numbers.


They'll certainly be thinking about it, but 2 years in seems a bit early. Part of 2017 was a backlash against May' opportunism and there will always be the worry the pandemic flares up again right in the middle of an election.  At some point they'll be able to say they are letting the people judge their performance on Covid and Brexit, maybe 3 or 4 years in, but not yet.


----------



## hitmouse (Apr 16, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> i must have been busy that week and not seen it at the time...


Here was the thing itself - Andrew Bowie, that was the twat in question.


----------



## two sheds (Apr 19, 2021)

Proud to see Kieth finally prepared to take a stand and strike out alone for something he believes in









						Parties call for inquiry into Boris Johnson’s ‘failure to be honest’
					

Exclusive: Commons Speaker asked to allow vote on inquiry as government spokesperson says ‘PM follows the ministerial code’




					www.theguardian.com
				






> The letter was organised by the Green MP Caroline Lucas and it has been signed by five other parliamentary party leaders: Ian Blackford (Scottish National party), Sir Ed Davey (Liberal Democrats), Liz Saville Roberts (Plaid Cymru), Colum Eastwood (SDLP) and Stephen Farry (Alliance).
> 
> The Labour leader, Sir Keir Starmer, was invited to sign the letter, but declined. A party source said Labour did not normally sign up to initiatives launched by other parties.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 19, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Proud to see Kieth finally prepared to take a stand and strike out alone for something he believes in
> 
> 
> 
> ...


_A party source said Labour did not normally sign up to initiatives launched by other parties._

Unless they're from the vermin.


----------



## magneze (Apr 19, 2021)

What a waste of space.


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 19, 2021)

Starmer ejected from pub by antilockdown loon:


----------



## magneze (Apr 19, 2021)

For a moment I thought the bloke wrestling with the landlord was Keith. But it isn't, of course.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Apr 19, 2021)

magneze said:


> For a moment I thought the bloke wrestling with the landlord was Keith. But it isn't, of course.


The same happened to me


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 19, 2021)

magneze said:


> For a moment I thought the bloke wrestling with the landlord was Keith. But it isn't, of course.


He looks like Raoul Moat


----------



## magneze (Apr 19, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> He looks like Raoul Moat


Keith or his henchman?


----------



## andysays (Apr 19, 2021)

Sprocket. said:


> Have any other Unite members been bombarded with requests to represent the union with the Labour Party in their area?
> I have had five emails in the last two weeks saying my support is needed as the country slips further to the right.  I have also been promised the opportunity to join said Labour Party, complete with application form.
> Strange they didn’t want my input fifteen years ago.


I've had a couple of these, I think. 

Also had stuff in the past from my local Labour party which I assumed was because of my Unite membership.


----------



## mauvais (Apr 19, 2021)

Already losing the lunatic twat vote, Kieth manages to make a further misstep by upsetting the key Porsche-owning demographic.


----------



## Zapp Brannigan (Apr 19, 2021)

Idris2002 said:


> Starmer ejected from pub by antilockdown loon:




Right outcome for all the wrong reasons.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 19, 2021)

It seems they had a bit of a disagreement while outside - not really sure why Keith and co then decided to go in? (ETA: unless they didn't actually know he was the landlord...)


----------



## brogdale (Apr 19, 2021)

FridgeMagnet said:


> It seems they had a bit of a disagreement while outside - not really sure why Keith and co then decided to go in? (ETA: unless they didn't actually know he was the landlord...)



Bit of a cunt off; reminded me a bit of...


----------



## Knotted (Apr 19, 2021)

I don't know how this type think they get to complain about the number of deaths while complaining about the measures taken to reduce the number of deaths.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 19, 2021)

FridgeMagnet said:


> It seems they had a bit of a disagreement while outside - not really sure why Keith and co then decided to go in? (ETA: unless they didn't actually know he was the landlord...)



Ditto. Milord kieth's spidey senses should have been saying get the fuck away from this.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 19, 2021)

Wilf said:


> Ditto. Milord kieth's spidey senses should have been saying get the fuck away from this.


Forensically examined the evidence of a nut-job landlord and then...went in, nonetheless.


----------



## killer b (Apr 19, 2021)

the disagreement outside was after he got chucked out apparently


----------



## two sheds (Apr 19, 2021)

you'd just walk away saying "you need help"


----------



## brogdale (Apr 19, 2021)

I suppose the nut-job landlord will now press charges of assault against Starmer's security?


----------



## killer b (Apr 19, 2021)

two sheds said:


> you'd just walk away saying "you need help"


no senior pol is allowed to do this kind of thing since Gillian Duffy. Everyone they speak to must be Taken Seriously.


----------



## two sheds (Apr 19, 2021)

I was half thinking that's what nut-job landlord should have said, too.


----------



## Serge Forward (Apr 19, 2021)

Twat on twat action.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Apr 19, 2021)

GET OUTTA MY PUB!

Lol!


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Apr 19, 2021)

The Guardian still aren't covering this story


----------



## elbows (Apr 19, 2021)

Knotted said:


> I don't know how this type think they get to complain about the number of deaths while complaining about the measures taken to reduce the number of deaths.



He possibly doesnt believe the virus killed people and was going on about how many people lockdown killed instead.


----------



## elbows (Apr 19, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> The Guardian still aren't covering this story



Their live updates page has several posts about it, eg:                            2h ago    14:59                  

Although being the Guardian a subsequent post mentions the 2.59am post


----------



## Artaxerxes (Apr 19, 2021)

FridgeMagnet said:


> It seems they had a bit of a disagreement while outside - not really sure why Keith and co then decided to go in? (ETA: unless they didn't actually know he was the landlord...)




He was invited in to speak to the owner or co-landlord and nutjob ambushes him about covid.

The pubs said Rod was a bit of a twat


----------



## glitch hiker (Apr 19, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> The Guardian still aren't covering this story


Keir's still not getting a drink


----------



## steeplejack (Apr 19, 2021)

Not sure if this, or being pointedly ignored by two girls on their phone in Seaton Carew, is more excruciating.

Sur Kieth is basically a more right wing Ed Miliband without the bacon roll empathy. A softly spoken, voter repellent blatherskite.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 19, 2021)

What's odd about the whole episode is that it was presumably a prearranged visit. Even over the phone they should have picked up that the landlord is a frothing neo-Ickeist.


----------



## Rimbaud (Apr 19, 2021)

Wilf said:


> What's odd about the whole episode is that it was presumably a prearranged visit. Even over the phone they should have picked up that the landlord is a frothing neo-Ickeist.



Starmer's team probably felt like frothing neo-Ickeist pub landlords are representative of exactly the kind of working class red wall voters he needs to win over.


----------



## tony.c (Apr 19, 2021)

Wilf said:


> What's odd about the whole episode is that it was presumably a prearranged visit. Even over the phone they should have picked up that the landlord is a frothing neo-Ickeist.


On Radio 4 PM it was said that the pub has two joint owners. The other gave permission, but his business partner didn't know that apparently.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 19, 2021)

tony.c said:


> On Radio 4 PM it was said that the pub has two joint owners. The other gave permission, but his business partner didn't know that apparently.


Ta.


----------



## glitch hiker (Apr 19, 2021)

I don't believe that guy's a labour voter. It's Bath ffs!


----------



## elbows (Apr 19, 2021)

Rod Cull and meme you.


----------



## belboid (Apr 19, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> The Guardian still aren't covering this story


18.08 they finally bother, with as minor key headline as they could muster








						Pub landlord shouts at Starmer for backing Covid rules
					

Video footage shows Labour leader being confronted as he campaigns in Bath before local elections




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## mauvais (Apr 19, 2021)

killer b said:


> no senior pol is allowed to do this kind of thing since Gillian Duffy. Everyone they speak to must be Taken Seriously.




Duffy, left, just _passively_ enjoying the spectacle today I see.


----------



## keybored (Apr 19, 2021)

Oh wow, that guy used to take me ferreting when I was a youth. Quite ironic he's now gone down the rabbit hole himself.


----------



## Leighsw2 (Apr 19, 2021)

keybored said:


> Oh wow, that guy used to take me ferreting when I was a youth. Quite ironic he's now gone down the rabbit hole himself.


I think we're now in 'beyond irony' territory aren't we?


----------



## brogdale (Apr 19, 2021)

Rictus grin and tonic, anyone?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Apr 19, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Rictus grin and tonic, anyone?




Nature is healing


----------



## marty21 (Apr 19, 2021)

Idris2002 said:


> Starmer ejected from pub by antilockdown loon:



I know that pub , old timers like me know it as Molly Hatchets , I'm not a Starmer defender , but I don't know how he can be blamed for pubs being shut down when Boris has an 80 seat majority. It is irrelevant whether Labour supported the lockdown or not with that majority. Personally,  I think that Landlord was looking for an incident to publicise the pub , which is on a back street . You wouldn't come across it on a random pub crawl around Bath , unless you knew about it (I'm ignoring pub guides on the internet) .


----------



## Knotted (Apr 19, 2021)

No, the landlord is right about one thing. Starmer should be held accountable to the Tory policies he supports.


----------



## marty21 (Apr 19, 2021)

Knotted said:


> No, the landlord is right about one thing. Starmer should be held accountable to the Tory policies he supports.


The 80 seat majority has made Starmer irrelevant,  it doesn't matter if he supports it or not. Better for him not to support it , but with that majority,  he could do fuck all. The landlord should be yelling at another local MP, Jacob Rees Mogg.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 19, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Rictus grin and tonic, anyone?



What's going on with his hand there?


----------



## Knotted (Apr 19, 2021)

He could have emphasised how bad the Covid strategy was by developing an alternative and disrupted the Tory electoral coalition pressurising them to change course. I'm totally up for yelling at him in the street.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Apr 19, 2021)

"Bring back David Cameron" says Kieth at the end of the clip. What can he mean?


----------



## Shechemite (Apr 19, 2021)

elbows said:


> He possibly doesnt believe the virus killed people and was going on about how many people lockdown killed instead.



tbf a big factor in the ~100,000 deaths of old and disabled people has been that they live in places they don’t want to live (and that most people wouldn’t what to) and that they can’t (for a variety of reasons) aren’t able to leave

Of course the anti-lockdown people don’t understand this either - hence their earlier calls to ‘protect the vulnerable’ er locking them away (so perfectly mentally competent people like the landlord can go back to normal). both pro and anti lockdown evangelists don’t really get why so many people have died


----------



## JTG (Apr 19, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Rictus grin and tonic, anyone?



Is that bloke wearing a Parachute Regiment badge?


----------



## brogdale (Apr 19, 2021)

JTG said:


> Is that bloke wearing a Parachute Regiment badge?


Dunno, but Starmer's pint looks like a prop...untouched when his pals are way down theirs.


----------



## elbows (Apr 19, 2021)

brogdale said:


> What's going on with his hand there?



The consequences of the botched operation he had a while back to replace his hands with flags. His mind accepted the flags willingly but his body still rejected them, and there were some complications when they gave up and reattached his original hands.


----------



## elbows (Apr 19, 2021)

MadeInBedlam said:


> tbf a big factor in the ~100,000 deaths of old and disabled people has been that they live in places they don’t want to live (and that most people wouldn’t what to) and that they can’t (for a variety of reasons) aren’t able to leave
> 
> Of course the anti-lockdown people don’t understand this either - hence their earlier calls to ‘protect the vulnerable’ er locking them away (so perfectly mentally competent people like the landlord can go back to normal). both pro and anti lockdown evangelists don’t really get why so many people have died



There are lots of reasons so many have died, including the things you allude to but also many others. I'm sure I'll go on about it more in the fullness of time once there ha been greater analysis. There hasnt been enough 2nd wave analysis yet, and for example it took till November to get some analysis of how large the care home undercount may have been for the first wave via things like COVID-19 care home deaths in UK ‘hugely underestimated’


----------



## bellaozzydog (Apr 19, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Rictus grin and tonic, anyone?




para regiment wanker sporting a fucking Pegasus on his civvie clobber

is this the audience he wants


----------



## bellaozzydog (Apr 19, 2021)

JTG said:


> Is that bloke wearing a Parachute Regiment badge?



yes.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 19, 2021)

marty21 said:


> The landlord should be yelling at another local MP, Jacob Rees Mogg.


I mean everyone should be doing this, just on principle.


----------



## JTG (Apr 19, 2021)

Wanker was in Bath so must have been campaigning for Dan Norris, awful candidate for metro mayor. Even the members still left in are refusing to campaign for Norris


----------



## krtek a houby (Apr 19, 2021)

bellaozzydog said:


> para regiment wanker sporting a fucking Pegasus on his civvie clobber
> 
> is this the audience he wants



'scuse ignorance, what does the Pegasus signify?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 19, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> 'scuse ignorance, what does the Pegasus signify?











						Pegasus returns as symbol of Parachute Regiment
					

A historic Pegasus emblem worn by paratroopers in the Second World War is being reintroduced to the uniforms of airborne soldiers.




					www.eadt.co.uk


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 19, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> 'scuse ignorance, what does the Pegasus signify?


Flying innit


----------



## pug (Apr 20, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> 'scuse ignorance, what does the Pegasus signify?


According to the officer quoted in the article its internationally recognized as a symbol of men being carried to air by battle.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Apr 20, 2021)

Why is being in the parachute regiment a bad thing?


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 20, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> 'scuse ignorance, what does the Pegasus signify?


My nephew, who served twenty four years in the Army and left as a Warrant Officer told us it represents two things that fall from height, paratroopers and horse shit.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Apr 20, 2021)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Why is being in the parachute regiment a bad thing?



I assume Urban trends towards pacifism and also takes a dim view of the paras work in Norn


----------



## Serge Forward (Apr 20, 2021)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Why is being in the parachute regiment a bad thing?


Bloody Sunday? Ballymurphy?


----------



## nogojones (Apr 20, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> 'scuse ignorance, what does the Pegasus signify?


The early parachute regiment were still a cavalry unit and troops were dropped with their horses. These paras today have it much too easy


----------



## andysays (Apr 20, 2021)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Why is being in the parachute regiment a bad thing?


I believe Paras have a reputation, even among the rest of the armed forces, for being a bit dim.

I mean, why would anyone choose to jump repeatedly out of a perfectly good plane?


----------



## 19force8 (Apr 20, 2021)

I looked up the Covid age of death statistic he was quoting and it says it was 80.3 whereas the overall age was 78.2.

Obviously, that means if he bans everyone aged over 70 he should be allowed to keep his pub open  

I don't have a lot of time for Starmer, but dealing with this kind of gibbering fool on the fly is utterly thankless


----------



## Jeremiah18.17 (Apr 20, 2021)

Just one of the reasons I can’t do electoral politics - you have to listen to everyone and treat them all with equal respect rather than justifiably say “Sorry, your ideas are ridiculous conspiraloon bull crap, fuck off” 😤😆


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 20, 2021)

Jeremiah18.17 said:


> Just one of the reasons I can’t do electoral politics - you have to listen to everyone and treat them all with equal respect rather than justifiably say “Sorry, your ideas are ridiculous conspiraloon bull crap, fuck off” 😤😆


i don't think that's how electoral politics works outside the 'balanced' bbc

there are much bigger problems with electoral politics, you've picked an utterly trivial one by comparison which doesn't even exist.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 20, 2021)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Why is being in the parachute regiment a bad thing?


it means you've joined the army


----------



## marty21 (Apr 20, 2021)

Wilf said:


> What's odd about the whole episode is that it was presumably a prearranged visit. Even over the phone they should have picked up that the landlord is a frothing neo-Ickeist.


He's a co-owner , the other owner is not happy with him


Artaxerxes said:


> He was invited in to speak to the owner or co-landlord and nutjob ambushes him about covid.
> 
> The pubs said Rod was a bit of a twat




The co-owner isn't pleased with Rod


----------



## killer b (Apr 20, 2021)

marty21 said:


> He's a co-owner , the other owner is not happy with him
> 
> 
> 
> The co-owner isn't pleased with Rod



the replies to that tweet tho. Jesus.


----------



## hitmouse (Apr 20, 2021)

marty21 said:


> The co-owner isn't pleased with Rod



I feel like there's potential for a great odd couple sitcom there.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 20, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> I feel like there's potential for a great odd couple sitcom there.


a tale of two taprooms


----------



## Artaxerxes (Apr 20, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> I feel like there's potential for a great odd couple sitcom there.



“Rod we just came out for a coffee, stop punching the baby next to us”


----------



## DJWrongspeed (Apr 20, 2021)

Was a bit Barbara Windsor


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Apr 20, 2021)

Jeremiah18.17 said:


> Just one of the reasons I can’t do electoral politics - you have to listen to everyone and treat them all with equal respect rather than justifiably say “Sorry, your ideas are ridiculous conspiraloon bull crap, fuck off” 😤😆


Have to admit, it would have been great to see Starmer give that reply.


----------



## Jeremiah18.17 (Apr 20, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> i don't think that's how electoral politics works outside the 'balanced' bbc
> 
> there are much bigger problems with electoral politics, you've picked an utterly trivial one by comparison which doesn't even exist.


That’s why I said ‘just one’ problem - not the main issue, but nevertheless maintaining “public image” and playing the part of a respectable “even handed” person is the culture of most mainstream parties in liberal democracies.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Apr 20, 2021)

Just seen the appearance of the pub landlord on Good Morning Britain. The arrogance of the man is something else, standing there with a stupid smile on his face lecturing everyone on the 'facts' and enjoying the spotlight. At the same time though he was clearly nervous, and was dealt with and rightly shown up for the idiot he is.

Didn't post the clip coz I didn't think it would be much appreciated, which is fair enough. They had some Daily Mail hack on there constantly trying to score political points for the tories.

That landlord has a very arrogant way about him though, and a very punchable face, glad he was taken apart on national telly.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 20, 2021)

_Reminds me of Oxted....

_


----------



## mx wcfc (Apr 20, 2021)

marty21 said:


> He's a co-owner , the other owner is not happy with him
> 
> 
> 
> The co-owner isn't pleased with Rod



The Raven is a decent pub - one I head for if in Bath.  I was appalled to see that footage yesterday. Rod (and Starmer) should fuck off though.


----------



## SovietArmy (Apr 20, 2021)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I mean everyone should be doing this, just on principle.


I think everybody should trow rotten eggs and rags.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Apr 21, 2021)

Labour MP's, including some front benchers, have had an epiphany -  they need to secure the votes of the working class 😂









						Labour will never govern unless it can appeal again to working class – report
					

Exclusive: publication by Labour MPs in once safe seats warns party’s problems predate Corbyn’s leadership and Brexit




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Apr 21, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> Labour MP's, including some front benchers, have had an epiphany -  they need to secure the votes of the working class 😂
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Problems pre-date Corbyn apparently. No way!


----------



## The39thStep (Apr 23, 2021)

New remake of Hi De Hi looks really good


----------



## splonkydoo (Apr 23, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> New remake of Hi De Hi looks really good
> 
> View attachment 264514




Is he trying to sign people up to a loan?


----------



## two sheds (Apr 23, 2021)

Possibly looking for commission on selling beachside properties.


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 23, 2021)

Bit niche this, but have just realised he’s the fourth (missing) face of all those Revolting Cocks albums:


----------



## hitmouse (Apr 23, 2021)

Beers, Steers, and QCs


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 23, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Beers, Steers, and QCs


Keir was thrown out cos he kept calling the Feds every time Al did a line


----------



## BigMoaner (Apr 23, 2021)

ska invita said:


> oh dear



that's 7.5 out of ten on the partridge scale


----------



## chilango (Apr 23, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> New remake of Hi De Hi looks really good
> 
> View attachment 264514



Who goes to the beach in a fucking suit?

Corbyn at least would've worn a rumpled linen number.


----------



## rekil (Apr 23, 2021)

chilango said:


> Who goes to the beach in a fucking suit?


The mayor in jaws.


----------



## chilango (Apr 23, 2021)

rekil said:


> The mayor in jaws.



Hmmm.


----------



## ska invita (Apr 23, 2021)

I'm just sat in the sun, i closed my eyes, and I could see Starmers face


----------



## splonkydoo (Apr 23, 2021)

ska invita said:


> I'm just sat in the sun, i closed my eyes, and I could see Starmers face



How did his hair look?


----------



## ska invita (Apr 23, 2021)

splonkydoo said:


> How did his hair look?


Too much product


----------



## two sheds (Apr 23, 2021)

Something like this?


----------



## elbows (Apr 23, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Something like this?
> 
> View attachment 264551



Must be Max Headrooms cousin, Minimum Wiggleroom.


----------



## elbows (Apr 23, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Too much product



He's singlehandedly creating a new hole in the brozone layer.


----------



## agricola (Apr 23, 2021)

chilango said:


> Who goes to the beach in a fucking suit?
> 
> Corbyn at least would've worn a rumpled linen number.



Corbs would also have made sure that when he went to Llangollen, as Starmer did yesterday, he'd have been photographed with a train or at least on the station.


----------



## chilango (Apr 23, 2021)

agricola said:


> Corbs would also have made sure that when he went to Llangollen, as Starmer did yesterday, he'd have been photographed with a train or at least on the station.



Llangollen railway has gone bankrupt


----------



## agricola (Apr 23, 2021)

chilango said:


> Llangollen railway has gone bankrupt



one bit of it has, the other bit is currently trying to buy the assets of the first bit


----------



## 19force8 (Apr 23, 2021)

Maybe it's time to send in the Marines Board of Deputies


----------



## ska invita (Apr 23, 2021)

19force8 said:


> Maybe it's time to send in the Marines Board of Deputies
> 
> View attachment 264588


in case anyone missed this happneing


			https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/palestine-labour-starmer-iftar-cancellation-bds-ignores-letter


----------



## Brainaddict (Apr 23, 2021)

It's all so second rate Blair, with a smattering of second rate Johnson when he tries to be man of the people. He doesn't have one iota of their ability to convince people though. You can get away with having no policies if you have charisma. He doesn't.


----------



## elbows (Apr 23, 2021)

Brainaddict said:


> It's all so second rate Blair, with a smattering of second rate Johnson when he tries to be man of the people. He doesn't have one iota of their ability to convince people though. You can get away with having no policies if you have charisma. He doesn't.



Its a little known fact that if he'd become leader of the opposition at the same time as Theresa May was prime minister, there was a real danger that the entire country could have been sucked into a charisma blackhole.


----------



## elbows (Apr 23, 2021)

I've read up on the physics of the matter and now have a sense of what would have happened. The blackhole appeared during PMQs. Starmer eventually realised what was going on, but his attempts to close the hole by threatening to travel back in time and prosecute May for running through a field of wheat did not come close to achieving that, even when he desperately repeated it with a silly voice. Mays attempts to dance only made the power of the blackhole greater.

A number of MPs felt regret that they ditched Bercow, suspecting that he might have been able to shout at the blackhole in a condescending enough manner that the hole might have been put in its place. The regret did not prevent them from being sucked off, fitting that some of them died as they had lived. Others tried variations of routine parliamentary performances but it was not enough, and indeed at one point a dead sheep emerged from the blackhole and savaged some of them.

In the end the nation was only saved because the 14th Doctor Who, Dennis Skinner, happened to be in the public gallery at the time and managed to shout at least six jokes about tory cocaine, sleaze and the royal family in quick succession. And then he picked up The Mace to reveal that it was a sonic screwdriver, which he proceeded to wield with expert skill. He used it to draw a magic line under the blackhole, and then made a joke about the tories snorting it, which tory MPs then enacted. His heroic efforts came too late to save most of the people who were in the chamber that day, but lessons were learned before a line was drawn under the whole affair and we moved on.


----------



## oryx (Apr 23, 2021)

Went out tonight for the first time in months and what do I see but a guy with a red mask with 'KEIR IS HERE' written on it.

What
The
Actual
Fuck


----------



## elbows (Apr 24, 2021)

oryx said:


> Went out tonight for the first time in months and what do I see but a guy with a red mask with 'KEIR IS HERE' written on it.
> 
> What
> The
> ...



If you missed some smaller words at the start of the mask slogan then a notebook, t-shirt and a miniskirt are other items that appear with when searching online for 'have no fear Keir is here'.


----------



## killer b (Apr 24, 2021)

Incredible. Are they official labour party memorabilia?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 24, 2021)

elbows said:


> If you missed some smaller words at the start of the mask slogan then a notebook, t-shirt and a miniskirt are other items that appear with when searching online for 'have no fear Keir is here'.
> 
> View attachment 264632



Silly person. It's spelled 'Keith'.


----------



## tony.c (Apr 24, 2021)

killer b said:


> Incredible. Are they official labour party memorabilia?


No, from a marketing company called Redbubble set up to sell stuff from independent artists.


----------



## mauvais (Apr 24, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Silly person. It's spelled 'Keith'.


No, it's Kieth, as in the _official_ mask slogan:

WHERE'S OUR KIETH?
13 POINTS BENEATH


----------



## killer b (Apr 24, 2021)

tony.c said:


> No, from a marketing company called Redbubble set up to sell stuff from independent artists.


Yes I found it - the guy who made it seems to only make designs for political projects which are doomed to failure. Suspect the numbers sold will be in single figures.


----------



## hitmouse (Apr 24, 2021)

Not actually Starmer, but related - do we need a separate "photos of desperately unconvincing Labour flagshaggery" thread?


----------



## ska invita (Apr 24, 2021)




----------



## The39thStep (Apr 24, 2021)

"That's fine, your flag exemption papers are all in order. Have a nice day"


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 24, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> "That's fine, your flag exemption papers are all in order. Have a nice day"
> 
> View attachment 264678


Doesn't the dpp normally kerbcrawl from within the car?


----------



## two sheds (Apr 24, 2021)

Cunning focus group results there though. Tories come with union jack flags so labour has to have flags. Responds with England flag - no seats to be won in Scotland and NIreland, clearly not that bothered about Wales.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 24, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Not actually Starmer, but related - do we need a separate "photos of desperately unconvincing Labour flagshaggery" thread?
> View attachment 264658


The flag may be red and white but they'll be flushing pink with embarrassment


----------



## Flavour (Apr 24, 2021)

Footie vote innit


----------



## two sheds (Apr 24, 2021)

Flavour said:


> Footie vote innit


Yep certainly came to mind. And responding to Boris of the People's promises about the Eurofiasco.

And the WhiteVanMan comment by that Labour MP before the last election. And presumably going to mop up any UKIPpers who might be floating Labour voters. 

Stroke of focusgroup genius really.


----------



## ska invita (Apr 24, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> "That's fine, your flag exemption papers are all in order. Have a nice day"
> 
> View attachment 264678


i wonder how many votes you can pick up by haranguing people through their car windows whilst stuck in traffic?


----------



## two sheds (Apr 24, 2021)

Breathing on them in a confined space


----------



## The39thStep (Apr 24, 2021)

ska invita said:


> i wonder how many votes you can pick up by haranguing people through their car windows whilst stuck in traffic?


Are those squeegee people still about ?


----------



## The39thStep (Apr 24, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Breathing on them in a confined space


After a couple of pints and a pickled egg


----------



## splonkydoo (Apr 24, 2021)

"son, put the window up...slowly"


----------



## two sheds (Apr 24, 2021)

"... but wait til he puts his head inside"


----------



## The39thStep (Apr 24, 2021)

Saturday afternoon. I'm fucked off with canvassing and I've got a fiver on Crabknacker in the 2.30 at Haydock. What's wrong with white socks?


----------



## agricola (Apr 24, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Saturday afternoon. I'm fucked off with canvassing and I've got a fiver on Crabknacker in the 2.30 at Haydock. What's wrong with white socks?
> 
> View attachment 264751



if he didn't drink that he should be fired immediately


----------



## JTG (Apr 24, 2021)

agricola said:


> if he didn't drink that he should be fired immediately


Put of a cannon preferably


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Apr 24, 2021)

sir kieth is today celebrating an action of female workers at the bryant and may match factory - except it was the employer who was against the government's action and made their workers protest...


----------



## Calamity1971 (Apr 24, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> sir kieth is today celebrating an action of female workers at the bryant and may match factory - except it was the employer who was against the government's action and made their workers protest...
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 264826


Christ, he really is a total knacker.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 25, 2021)

Preaching to the converted here....


----------



## MickiQ (Apr 25, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> "That's fine, your flag exemption papers are all in order. Have a nice day"
> 
> View attachment 264678


I think most people in this situation would wind the window up and stare firmly ahead pretending they can’t see him


----------



## brogdale (Apr 25, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Preaching to the converted here....



_Would you like to see what I've drawn on my ballot paper...?

_


----------



## The39thStep (Apr 25, 2021)

Professor Wagstaff : Listen you bunch of butterfingered milk saps! The way you're playing you couldn't beat a girls basketball team. We've gotta win this game! You understand? Even if we have to use our star player, number 37. You remember her, don't ya? The quarterback gets the ball, goes around left end and make a lateral pass to the right guards.
Frank : Hey, Dad...
Professor Wagstaff : Wait a minute! Boys, if you can't beat that bunch of half witted goofs...
Frank : Hey, Dad...
Professor Wagstaff : What do you want?
Frank : Well, you're talking to the wrong team.
Professor Wagstaff : I know I am, but our team wouldn't listen to me!

Horse Feathers 1932


----------



## two sheds (Apr 25, 2021)

He's not very good at photo ops is he  which is a shame because I don't think he has anything else.


----------



## rekil (Apr 25, 2021)

Paras
Flags
Booze
Footy


----------



## PR1Berske (Apr 25, 2021)

rekil said:


> Paras
> Flags
> Booze
> Footy



"Views my own. Love the kids. Hate the (ex)wife (courts biased! FFJ!) RT =/= Endorsements. Want my country back!"


----------



## brogdale (Apr 25, 2021)

rekil said:


> Paras
> Flags
> Booze
> Footy


Just borrow that whippet, now and it's _housey, housey!_


----------



## TopCat (Apr 25, 2021)

Labour group urges Keir Starmer to back better Brexit deal
					

Labour MPs and activists urge their leader to commit to aligning Britain with Brussels and restoring EU programmes




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## haushoch (Apr 25, 2021)

two sheds said:


> He's not very good at photo ops is he  which is a shame because I don't think he has anything else.



To me it looks as if they take random photos and then photoshop him into them, but not actually very well.


----------



## two sheds (Apr 25, 2021)

Yes, and that one in front of the bar does look like he's holding a cardboard cutout pint of beer.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Apr 25, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Yes, and that one in front of the bar does look like he's holding a cardboard cutout pint of beer.



i thought it was a pint of beer with a cardboard cutout politician...


----------



## hitmouse (Apr 25, 2021)

brogdale said:


> _Would you like to see what I've drawn on my ballot paper...?
> 
> View attachment 264854_


This one's amazing. Is it just me, or does he somehow manage to look like a fucking Aardman animation here?


----------



## two sheds (Apr 25, 2021)

He's getting in practice at being ignored


----------



## elbows (Apr 25, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Yes, and that one in front of the bar does look like he's holding a cardboard cutout pint of beer.



They are giving the beer its own theme tune in an attempt to improve his charisma. Lyrics are still a work in progress.

No fear!
Keirs beer is here
To cheer another wilderness year.
Steer right
Gear up to smear the left
Leer at the polls
Dear leader cant relate to proles.


----------



## The39thStep (Apr 25, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Labour group urges Keir Starmer to back better Brexit deal
> 
> 
> Labour MPs and activists urge their leader to commit to aligning Britain with Brussels and restoring EU programmes
> ...


Got to admire the ability of those who can bang another nail into the coffin whilst actually being inside it


----------



## Smangus (Apr 25, 2021)

I worry about Kier , he obviously has a drink problem.


----------



## tony.c (Apr 25, 2021)

Smangus said:


> I worry about Kier , he obviously has a drink problem.


Nah, he's just emphasising that Labour has a new Leader now!
Would you have seen that lefty teetotal Corbyn clutching a pint?!

And he's hoping it will make him seem as worker friendly as Johnson.


----------



## Shechemite (Apr 25, 2021)

I got pissed with some HS2 workers the night before the (second?) lockdown came in. Nice fellas. They get a lot of abuse from locals whcih is shit


----------



## bendeus (Apr 25, 2021)

tony.c said:


> Nah, he's just emphasising that Labour has a new Leader now!
> Would you have seen that lefty teetotal Corbyn clutching a pint?!
> 
> And he's hoping it will make him seem as worker friendly as Johnson.View attachment 264904


At least BoZo fucking drinks them; all Ser Kieth's pints appear pristine and untouched, with the head still intact.

E2A - pursuing a strategy of constructive ambiguity wrt pint quaffing.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Apr 26, 2021)

Just amazing flag backdrop really


----------



## The39thStep (Apr 26, 2021)

Who hung the monkey?


----------



## Knotted (Apr 26, 2021)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Just amazing flag backdrop really




Indeed it is.

But just a little point but

Labour vote in Hartlepool in 2015 - 14,076
Labour vote in Hartlepool in 2019 - 15,464

Even in the disastrous 2019 election, Corbyn had won back more voters than he had lost.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Apr 26, 2021)

Knotted said:


> Indeed it is.
> 
> But just a little point but
> 
> ...



Who wouldn't want to vote for a candidate who supports public beheadings, gender apartheid and torturing dissidents to death?


----------



## ska invita (Apr 26, 2021)

Powerful campaigning
"This pub is under new management.
Sorry, no actual drinking of pints allowed. "


----------



## mx wcfc (Apr 26, 2021)

From Kamala Harris's twitter (sorry I can never cut and paste twitter properly)

"Every worker deserves the choice to join a union—and our country is better when more workers are union members. As Chair of the White House Task Force on Worker Organizing and Empowerment, I’ll lead our efforts with 
@SecMartyWalsh
 to help workers organize and build power. "

Regardless of how genuine/realistic that is, I can't imagine Starmer ever saying that.


----------



## mx wcfc (Apr 26, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Powerful campaigning
> "This pub is under new management.
> Sorry, no actual drinking of pints allowed. "
> 
> View attachment 265033View attachment 265032View attachment 265030View attachment 265034View attachment 265029


He does hold his pint like he normally drinks wine.

At least he doesn't drink Greene King IPA though. 

(not that there's ever been a photo of him actually _drinking_ a pint.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 26, 2021)

I have now been thrown out of fewer pubs* than the Labour leader. Is there a prize?

* as far as I remember


----------



## mx wcfc (Apr 26, 2021)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I have now been thrown out of fewer pubs* than the Labour leader. Is there a prize?
> 
> * as far as I remember


Pathetic.  I'm beating him 2-1.

(edited for typ)


----------



## brogdale (Apr 27, 2021)

Have we had this one yet?

Park drinking, now.


----------



## ddraig (Apr 27, 2021)

Is it a full bottle?


----------



## brogdale (Apr 27, 2021)

ddraig said:


> Is it a full bottle?


Dunno, but being approached in the park by someone holding a bottle of beer is not always what you went there for.


----------



## Brainaddict (Apr 27, 2021)

Such a normal bloke. A few more of these 'drinking with the lads and lasses' pics and he'll be romping home in Hartlepool.


----------



## ska invita (Apr 27, 2021)

Could yet get awkward for Starmer I think:








						Israel is committing the crime of apartheid, rights group says
					

Human Rights Watch calls on international criminal court to investigate ‘systematic discrimination’ against Palestinians




					www.theguardian.com
				



His BDS=Antisemitism position can't hold


----------



## rekil (Apr 27, 2021)

You won't see it reported on the m$m but the park drinker community has moved swiftly to issue a statement distancing themselves from Mr.Starmer and his antics.


----------



## steveseagull (Apr 27, 2021)

Jesus Christ. He is bang on it.


----------



## two sheds (Apr 27, 2021)

That's deliberated oneupmanship over farage, surely  

or pixels


----------



## ska invita (Apr 27, 2021)

steveseagull said:


> Jesus Christ. He is bang on it.
> 
> View attachment 265312


🤣😂😅
i really hope thats real


----------



## splonkydoo (Apr 28, 2021)

Is that a shot from Crime busters where he has just impounded a load of illegal kegs? 
#keepingourstreetssafe


----------



## Nine Bob Note (Apr 28, 2021)

With rum-running hoodlums in the catbird seat, Blighty sent for the one man who could clean up the town and shoot the gangsters: Sir Keir Starmer.


----------



## AnnO'Neemus (Apr 28, 2021)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Just amazing flag backdrop really



'kinell. He might as well say: 'Hey, Tories, we'll see your union flag-shagging and raise you a George cross flag, which is even more of a dog whistle to English nationalist racists.'

And talking about 'the country' is rich, given the George cross flag isn't inclusive of all nations. It's like saying 'Hey, all you folk who deserted Labour and voted for BNP, EDL, Ukip, Brexit Party, etc, come back, all is forgiven! We welcome you with open arms.' (And sod what message that sends to Scottish, Welsh, Norn Irish members, or black, Asian, Arab, African, Afro-Caribbean, mainland European, etc, Labour Party members, and how uncomfortable and unwelcome and conflicted that such actions make them feel.)


----------



## TopCat (Apr 28, 2021)

A fucking wet blanket shit Tory.


----------



## Mr Moose (Apr 28, 2021)

Keith will have been smugly pleased with his performance today as he managed to get Johnson to completely lose his rag. A two yard tap-in, but usually Labour puts those over the bar.


----------



## eatmorecheese (Apr 28, 2021)

Mr Forensic buggered that 'bodies piled high' question.

'Could you tell the House...'

'No'.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 28, 2021)

Mr Moose said:


> Keith will have been smugly pleased with his performance today as he managed to get Johnson to completely lose his rag. A two yard tap-in, but usually Labour puts those over the bar.


----------



## two sheds (Apr 28, 2021)

I liked Johnson complaining that Starmer was wasting time on unimportant nonsense when he should have been using PMQs to try and hold the government to account for all the important pandemic/economic/etc things that are going on.

If Johnson had just answered the question first time, however, .....


----------



## MickiQ (Apr 28, 2021)

Nine Bob Note said:


> With rum-running hoodlums in the catbird seat, Blighty sent for the one man who could clean up the town and shoot the gangsters: Sir Keir Starmer.


What is it with this guy? is there some focus group advising him on working class stereotypes. "Pose with beer barrels/pints/edgy teenagers/grandma's and the proles will rush to vote for you?" He'll be pictured with a flat cap and a fucking whippet next.


----------



## hitmouse (Apr 28, 2021)

steveseagull said:


> Jesus Christ. He is bang on it.
> 
> View attachment 265312


"I will continue to contaminate one barrel with piss each day until my demands are met."


----------



## ska invita (Apr 28, 2021)

i dont know quite why but that picture creases me up  i think its his air of total uselessness in the face of something requiring manual work... brilliant...
got to get your pleasures where you can


----------



## Wilf (Apr 28, 2021)

steveseagull said:


> Jesus Christ. He is bang on it.
> 
> View attachment 265312


This is the first miracle attributed to Sur Kieth, turning water into wine lager into sensible low alcohol lager.


----------



## elbows (Apr 28, 2021)

Nine Bob Note said:


> With rum-running hoodlums in the catbird seat, Blighty sent for the one man who could clean up the town and shoot the gangsters: Sir Keir Starmer.



On a visit to the hospital which saved Johnsons life, Keir discovers the innovative treatment method which saved the PMs life involved the repurposing of oxygen supply lines with supplies of a very different kind.


----------



## JimW (Apr 28, 2021)

It really is mind-boggling what a shower of pathetic useless cunts we allow to govern us.


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 28, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> What is it with this guy? is there some focus group advising him on working class stereotypes. "Pose with beer barrels/pints/edgy teenagers/grandma's and the proles will rush to vote for you?" He'll be pictured with a flat cap and a fucking whippet next.


I’m just glad they’ve closed all the pits around here.
Sadly most of the ex-miners voted UKIP and swapped the whippets for cockapoos.


----------



## ska invita (Apr 28, 2021)

man of the people manoeuvres continue  

Its all too much


----------



## Mr Moose (Apr 28, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> What is it with this guy? is there some focus group advising him on working class stereotypes. "Pose with beer barrels/pints/edgy teenagers/grandma's and the proles will rush to vote for you?" He'll be pictured with a flat cap and a fucking whippet next.



With a West Ham Villa scarf.


----------



## eatmorecheese (Apr 28, 2021)

ska invita said:


> man of the people manoeuvres continue
> View attachment 265399
> Its all too much



Middle class wars


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Apr 28, 2021)




----------



## Raheem (Apr 28, 2021)

Was Johnson sitting in the seat next to the one with a tick on?


----------



## elbows (Apr 28, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Was Johnson sitting in the seat next to the one with a tick on?



Dunno but I hear he was certainly ticked off.


----------



## Raheem (Apr 29, 2021)

I have to admit this is not shit. Being photographed today looking at wallpaper in John Lewis. Bet it wasn't his idea, though.


----------



## mx wcfc (Apr 29, 2021)

Raheem said:


> I have to admit this is not shit. Being photographed today looking at wallpaper in John Lewis. Bet it wasn't his idea, though.


He hasn't got a beer in his hand either......


----------



## Badgers (Apr 30, 2021)

Keir Starmer billed taxpayer £160k for Chauffeur driven car to drive him 4 miles to work whilst he was Director of Public Prosecutions
					






					bywire.news


----------



## Wilf (Apr 30, 2021)

mx wcfc said:


> He hasn't got a beer in his hand either......


It's not wallpaper, it's a scroll of all the dangerous criminals he personally put away.


----------



## magneze (Apr 30, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Keir Starmer billed taxpayer £160k for Chauffeur driven car to drive him 4 miles to work whilst he was Director of Public Prosecutions
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Bit of a whiff of "look over here, not over there" about this. Whilst a ton of money, is this particularly unusual or some kind of corruption?


----------



## Badgers (Apr 30, 2021)

magneze said:


> Bit of a whiff of "look over here, not over there" about this. Whilst a ton of money, is this particularly unusual or some kind of corruption?


Aye. Good to put this stuff on the record though


----------



## brogdale (Apr 30, 2021)

*real*





not enough   s


----------



## Calamity1971 (Apr 30, 2021)

brogdale said:


> *real*
> 
> 
> 
> not enough   s



It's missing a wet paper bag. Jesus.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 30, 2021)

Calamity1971 said:


> It's missing a wet paper bag. Jesus.


The general thrust of the twitter response...


----------



## two sheds (Apr 30, 2021)

magneze said:


> Bit of a whiff of "look over here, not over there" about this. Whilst a ton of money, is this particularly unusual or some kind of corruption?


Johnson will no doubt use it next time he's challenged though.


----------



## Spandex (Apr 30, 2021)

brogdale said:


> *real*
> 
> 
> 
> not enough   s



There's a man who's never in all his born days worn a pair of boxing gloves. He looks so fucking bemused by them, like he just put them on and is thinking _so this is what boxing gloves feel like._

Jesus fucking christ he's so fucking useless at photo ops. He makes Ed Milliband look comfortable in front of a camera.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 30, 2021)

Spandex said:


> There's a man who's never in all his born days worn a pair of boxing gloves. He looks so fucking bemused by them, like he just put them on and is thinking _so this is what boxing gloves feel like._
> 
> Jesus fucking christ he's so fucking useless at photo ops. He makes Ed Milliband look comfortable in front of a camera.


Harsh; he's probably familiar with all those boxing clubs above 'hard as nails' boozers that line the main drag down Oxted way...


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 30, 2021)

brogdale said:


> *real*
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Is he trying to compile a stock images library? can we have one of him eating a pretzel on a horse?


----------



## ska invita (Apr 30, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> Is he trying to compile a stock images library?


he's pathetically trying to copy boris johnson
i

















hang ona minute


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 30, 2021)

have any of them done a Thatcher?


----------



## teqniq (Apr 30, 2021)

Oh dear:


----------



## glitch hiker (Apr 30, 2021)




----------



## steveseagull (Apr 30, 2021)

How do we make him stop doing this sort of stuff?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 30, 2021)

Kieth points out the latest polling figures for Labour among working class voters....


----------



## two sheds (Apr 30, 2021)

Going for the pretty cherry tree gardening voters there


----------



## two sheds (Apr 30, 2021)

"Touch that bag for the camera"
"Shouldn't I actually hit it?"
"Nah nobody will notice just touch it, 
but smile like boxers do when they hit things"


----------



## Ground Elder (May 1, 2021)




----------



## Raheem (May 1, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


>


"I stand on the steps, you stand on the grass. OK?"


----------



## tony.c (May 1, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Going for the pretty cherry tree gardening voters there


He has got a mill in the background, though it's probably converted into luxury apartments now.


----------



## keybored (May 1, 2021)

teqniq said:


> Oh dear:



The victorious face of someone who pummelled a squirrel to death in round one.


----------



## ska invita (May 1, 2021)

check out the video 


   

although tbf it is an accurate representation of labour "fighting for every vote", which could only be bettered if he'd somehow managed to punch himself in the face


----------



## magneze (May 1, 2021)

two sheds said:


> View attachment 265804
> 
> "Touch that bag for the camera"
> "Shouldn't I actually hit it?"
> ...


Is he trying to do a Brian Rose? What's next? Not quite drinking his own piss?


----------



## DotCommunist (May 1, 2021)

Theres a video of Rose doing a bruce lee nunchuk  routine in his pants, not sure sir frensic could be convinced to get his keks off for a photoshoot.


----------



## hitmouse (May 1, 2021)

ska invita said:


> check out the video
> 
> 
> 
> ...



He missed a trick there, how did he fail to get a photo with the one that looks a bit like a giant pint?


----------



## two sheds (May 1, 2021)

I like the bloke saying to Starmer "yes that's good". He should have been saying "Imagine it's a left wing labour member's face"


----------



## Smokeandsteam (May 1, 2021)

magneze said:


> Is he trying to do a Brian Rose? What's next? Not quite drinking his own piss?



I’d vote Labour if Kieth is prepared to drink his own piss....


----------



## bellaozzydog (May 1, 2021)

Spandex said:


> There's a man who's never in all his born days worn a pair of boxing gloves. He looks so fucking bemused by them, like he just put them on and is thinking _so this is what boxing gloves feel like._
> 
> Jesus fucking christ he's so fucking useless at photo ops. He makes Ed Milliband look comfortable in front of a camera.



wait till you see the ficking video


----------



## mauvais (May 1, 2021)

tony.c said:


> He has got a mill in the background, though it's probably converted into luxury apartments now.


Ilex Mill in Rawtenstall, and yeah.


----------



## ska invita (May 1, 2021)

two sheds said:


> View attachment 265804
> 
> "Touch that bag for the camera"
> "Shouldn't I actually hit it?"
> ...


Turns out that was a punch!


----------



## two sheds (May 1, 2021)

I know  I saw the video afterwards


----------



## ska invita (May 1, 2021)

ska invita said:


> check out the video
> 
> 
> 
> ...



note his particularly feeble left
much stronger with his right, natch


----------



## NoXion (May 1, 2021)

I bet Corbyn would have punched harder, he's got a stronger left side after all.


----------



## glitch hiker (May 1, 2021)

NoXion said:


> I bet Corbyn would have punched harder, he's got a stronger left side after all.


He would have at least punched up


----------



## two sheds (May 3, 2021)

Pretending to sell carrots now


----------



## two sheds (May 3, 2021)

and stealing dogs 

look at the sadness in its little face


----------



## strung out (May 3, 2021)

two sheds said:


> View attachment 266274
> 
> Pretending to sell carrots now


Same vibe


----------



## Calamity1971 (May 3, 2021)

two sheds said:


> View attachment 266274
> 
> Pretending to sell carrots now


Looks like he's pretending to give a shit in a food Bank to me.


----------



## two sheds (May 3, 2021)

Good call


----------



## fishfinger (May 4, 2021)

Calamity1971 said:


> Looks like he's pretending to give a shit in a food Bank to me.


No, they're definitely carrots.


----------



## two sheds (May 4, 2021)

ok I was wrong he is truly a man of the people, he eats fish and chips out of cardboard boxes in a not-at-all-staged-photo. 

All hail our leader.


----------



## Shechemite (May 4, 2021)

Is the girl calling him a wanker?


----------



## two sheds (May 4, 2021)

Looks like she's going to throw up  poor lass.


----------



## Knotted (May 4, 2021)

two sheds said:


> View attachment 266275
> 
> and stealing dogs
> 
> look at the sadness in its little face



That's a strange photo in so many ways. It's amazing how staged it looks. You couldn't make it look that staged if you staged it to be staged.


----------



## Kaka Tim (May 5, 2021)

How long can sir kieth hold on if /when Labour get flattened in hartlepool? Surely will be the start of some serious discontent from the unions and PLP?


----------



## editor (May 5, 2021)

Not sure where to put this but I'm sure Starmer will be along to put things right.


----------



## Chz (May 5, 2021)

Kaka Tim said:


> How long can sir kieth hold on if /when Labour get flattened in hartlepool? Surely will be the start of some serious discontent from the unions and PLP?


It would have started already, since no-one expects them to win. Maybe if there was a good candidate waiting in the wings, but Labour are bereft of any sort of competent talent. Who would they push for?


----------



## Mr Moose (May 5, 2021)

editor said:


> Not sure where to put this but I'm sure Starmer will be along to put things right.
> 
> View attachment 266674



Christ on a bike, that’s awful.

Edit - when did that interview take place? Where’s the linky?

Not saying time heals all btw.


----------



## Thaw (May 5, 2021)

Its from Sept 2017

Scottish Labour leadership: Anas Sarwar denies being 'one of the few' | Senscot
Anas Sarwar claims family business doesn't pay living wage because it doesn't have to | The National

When asked why United Wholesale did not currently pay the real living wage to all staff, Mr Sarwar responded: "The difference is that I don’t support a voluntary real living wage.
"I support a mandatory real living wage. I don’t think it is right that the market dictates what a fair day’s pay is. That is why I want it to be a compulsory policy."


----------



## two sheds (May 5, 2021)

Same logic for major scale tax avoidance, wonder whether he's into that too.


----------



## MrSki (May 5, 2021)

Having a real impact with voters.


----------



## Kaka Tim (May 5, 2021)

Chz said:


> It would have started already, since no-one expects them to win. Maybe if there was a good candidate waiting in the wings, but Labour are bereft of any sort of competent talent. Who would they push for?



Angela Raynor would be the obvious candidate - working class, good people skills, witty, popular, good communicator and with an eye catching back story - a perfect riposte to posh, elite johnson in a way starmer could never be. Leftish without being as scary as Jezza. Surprised she didnt go for it last time. She's also  driven and ambitious - so wouldn't be at all surprised if we see close associates of her briefing against kieth in the near future.


----------



## steeplejack (May 5, 2021)

Sur Kieth- the Michael Howard of Labour's wilderness years.


----------



## Raheem (May 5, 2021)

steeplejack said:


> Sur Kieth- the Michael Howard of Labour's wilderness years.


It's a lot harder to depose a Labour leader, though. Think he pretty much has to resign.


----------



## Sprocket. (May 5, 2021)

steeplejack said:


> Sur Kieth- the Michael Howard of Labour's wilderness years.


At least Howard had the potential to attract the interest of vampire hunters.


----------



## Knotted (May 5, 2021)

I don't see any chance of Starmer going anywhere between now and the next election. He's doing exactly what Labourist common sense dictates and non of them understand why it's not working. Apart from the likes of Richard Burgon, he's not getting any push back from the PLP. Whereas he may be especially incompetent as a leader, who else who is likely to take over who will do anything substantially different?


----------



## killer b (May 5, 2021)

Raheem said:


> It's a lot harder to depose a Labour leader, though. Think he pretty much has to resign.


A leadership contest can be triggered by 20% of the PLP nominating another MP for leader. I'm not sure how the membership would vote if that happened this time round, but it seems unlikely Starmer would increase his majority like Corbyn did when he was challenged.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (May 5, 2021)

Knotted said:


> I don't see any chance of Starmer going anywhere between now and the next election. He's doing exactly what Labourist common sense dictates and non of them understand why it's not working. Apart from the likes of Richard Burgon, he's not getting any push back from the PLP. Whereas he may be especially incompetent as a leader, who else who is likely to take over who will do anything substantially different?



Yeah I'd expect that whenever it does become obvious to them it's not working, their first instinct is going to be that Starmer hasn't gone far enough - they'll double down before they'll change direction.


----------



## Wilf (May 5, 2021)

Spandex said:


> There's a man who's never in all his born days worn a pair of boxing gloves. He looks so fucking bemused by them, like he just put them on and is thinking _so this is what boxing gloves feel like._
> 
> Jesus fucking christ he's so fucking useless at photo ops. He makes Ed Milliband look comfortable in front of a camera.


To be fair, his shirts must be taking a battering at the moment: tie on, tie off, sleeves rolled up, pint after pint, curry sauce drips off his chips, wrestling with a pub owner...


----------



## MickiQ (May 5, 2021)

two sheds said:


> ok I was wrong he is truly a man of the people, he eats fish and chips out of cardboard boxes in a not-at-all-staged-photo.
> 
> All hail our leader.
> 
> View attachment 266483


That actually his family? or were they just poor sods minding their own business who got roped in?


Chz said:


> It would have started already, since no-one expects them to win. Maybe if there was a good candidate waiting in the wings, but Labour are bereft of any sort of competent talent. Who would they push for?


This  I don't think losing this by-election even if combined with poor LE results is likely to topple him. Brown, Milliband and Corbyn all failed to be election winners and Labour are kind of desperate for a winner and there isn't really any obvious choice waiting in the wings.
There will be mutterings against even now and it will only get louder if (or after) he loses. If the 2022 LE is a flop and there is another disastrous by-election then he might end up getting toppled which can only start yet another messy and public power struggle within the Labour Party.
But at the moment I suspect he is going to have to lose the next GE (at the moment I'd put money on him not doing so) before he goes.


----------



## MickiQ (May 5, 2021)

Wilf said:


> To be fair, his shirts must be taking a battering at the moment: tie on, tie off, sleeves rolled up, pint after pint, curry sauce drips off his chips, wrestling with a pub owner...


Perhaps he can claim them on expenses


----------



## magneze (May 5, 2021)

Guardian article recommending that Labour needs to be left wing to win.









						Keir Starmer must lean right to win? History suggests otherwise | Michael Jacobs and Andrew Hindmoor
					

A cautious approach works for Labour only when the economy is booming – not in times of crisis, say two professors of politics and political economy




					www.theguardian.com
				




"...a cautious, moderate platform looks to be neither an economically appropriate stance, nor an electorally winning one."


----------



## Wilf (May 5, 2021)

ska invita said:


> check out the video
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I don't want to go down some macho nonsense route of thinking politicians have to vigorous, manly or similar shite. But oh my, if you go to a boxing club and know you'll be faced with a photo op like that you either do it properly or you ham it up.  Johnson of course is rather good at the hammy approach, 'biffing' labour when it's boxing, clearing a kid out when it's rugby.  Needless to say, the stuff that johnson is good it is part of the reason I hate 'politics', but even so, kieth needs a bit of awareness of how he's going to come across if his boxing A-Game makes him look like a couch potato on his first day at the gym.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 5, 2021)

magneze said:


> Guardian article recommending that Labour needs to be left wing to win.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


starmer's going to end despised by the left, we all knew that. but he'll be held in contempt by the right too.


----------



## magneze (May 5, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> starmer's going to end despised by the left, we all knew that. but he'll be held in contempt by the right too.


It's a form of unity, I guess..


----------



## glitch hiker (May 5, 2021)

two sheds said:


> View attachment 266274
> 
> Pretending to sell carrots now


I'm guessing that's a foodbank.

Says it all about modern Britain. You have people pretending to care about the poor while awful humans gather with cameraphones to photograph a would be tyrant


----------



## The39thStep (May 5, 2021)

Kaka Tim said:


> Angela Raynor would be the obvious candidate - working class, good people skills, witty, popular, good communicator and with an eye catching back story - a perfect riposte to posh, elite johnson in a way starmer could never be. Leftish without being as scary as Jezza. Surprised she didnt go for it last time. She's also  driven and ambitious - so wouldn't be at all surprised if we see close associates of her briefing against kieth in the near future.


I've known her for years . She's not a boat rocker, won't fight the right wing in the party and won't strike the first blow. If she stood she'd be heavily chaperoned.


----------



## Raheem (May 5, 2021)

Wilf said:


> I don't want to go down some macho nonsense route of thinking politicians have to vigorous, manly or similar shite. But oh my, if you go to a boxing club and know you'll be faced with a photo op like that you either do it properly or you ham it up.  Johnson of course is rather good at the hammy approach, 'biffing' labour when it's boxing, clearing a kid out when it's rugby.  Needless to say, the stuff that johnson is good it is part of the reason I hate 'politics', but even so, kieth needs a bit of awareness of how he's going to come across if his boxing A-Game makes him look like a couch potato on his first day at the gym.


Blair would have had a private practice session first.


----------



## Dogsauce (May 5, 2021)

steeplejack said:


> Sur Kieth- the Michael Howard of Labour's wilderness years.



I was thinking today that he’s the William Hague, someone the party had great hopes in but turns out to be a bit ineffectual and shite. Has he tried donning a baseball cap yet?


----------



## Dogsauce (May 5, 2021)

Knotted said:


> . Whereas he may be especially incompetent as a leader, who else who is likely to take over who will do anything substantially different?



The answer is Burnham, but obviously not someone they can just drop in as not currently an MP. Longer term I think he’s in with a shout, someone reasonably effective at communicating with the public.


----------



## two sheds (May 5, 2021)

Laura Pidcock but similar and I can't see the party putting her up for a seat.


----------



## andysays (May 5, 2021)

Dogsauce said:


> I was thinking today that he’s the William Hague, someone the party had great hopes in but turns out to be a bit ineffectual and shite. Has he tried donning a baseball cap yet?


Hague was famous/infamous for drinking a large number of pints at a Young Tory conference, or something similar.

Starmer seems to be trying to become famous for being photographed frequently holding a full pint, but never actually drinking anything.


----------



## Raheem (May 5, 2021)

Think it's a bit unfair comparing Starmer to anyone with any sort of defining characteristics or personality.


----------



## steeplejack (May 5, 2021)

Dogsauce said:


> I was thinking today that he’s the William Hague, someone the party had great hopes in but turns out to be a bit ineffectual and shite. Has he tried donning a baseball cap yet?



Hauge was just a joke- a shattered Tory Party's utterly pathetic attempt to try and do Tony Blair. Howard works as a comparison, as he's exactly the kind of clever-clever, intellectually sharp but ultimately lacking the common touch, charismatically bypassed, and voter-repellant QC.

Howard is by all accounts a better lawyer, too. Imagine waking up and finding out you're a weak echo of a forgotten and deeply unpopular former Leader of the Opposition.


----------



## Wilf (May 5, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Blair would have had a private practice session first.


Headers with Kevin Keegan.  '_I'd love it me...'_


----------



## brogdale (May 5, 2021)

The man who'd been told to fuck off...


----------



## Orang Utan (May 5, 2021)

brogdale said:


> The man who'd been told to fuck off...
> 
> View attachment 266798


Looks like a conman who has failed to sell an elderly couple a time share flat in Marbella that hasn’t been built yet


----------



## JTG (May 5, 2021)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> Yeah I'd expect that whenever it does become obvious to them it's not working, their first instinct is going to be that Starmer hasn't gone far enough - they'll double down before they'll change direction.


Keep saying it, any challenge to SKS comes from the right initially. Scorpion/frog analogy.
The left may have the numbers to get someone on the ballot (assuming they stick together - not sure the likes of Tarry or Russell-Moyle are gonna necessarily go with the Campaign Group line) but it's the right who will knife Starmer first


----------



## Mr Moose (May 5, 2021)

magneze said:


> Guardian article recommending that Labour needs to be left wing to win.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I’m sure this is correct, but the problem for Labour is it is utterly unable to dictate a narrative. We now have the Tories claiming that they do economic intervention better (they do it a bit shit and unfairly) but if Labour tried to outdo that it would soon be portrayed as profligate, the ‘magic money tree’ would be wheeled out, as if the UK’s finance makes any sense as it is.

Maybe a line could be that the Tories aren’t delivering the Brexit people voted for and are delivering the failures people feared. Try to lead the debate on what good looks like for ‘independent’ UK (or what will be left of it) from here.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 5, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> Looks like a conman who has failed to sell an elderly couple a time share flat in Marbella that hasn’t been built yet


and he's going back later to try to persuade them to vote labour


----------



## Sue (May 5, 2021)

two sheds said:


> ok I was wrong he is truly a man of the people, he eats fish and chips out of cardboard boxes in a not-at-all-staged-photo.
> 
> All hail our leader.
> 
> View attachment 266483


A true Man Of The People would be eating them with his fingers.


----------



## two sheds (May 5, 2021)

indeed, out of newspaper - I was being generous


----------



## Cid (May 5, 2021)

Sue said:


> A true Man Of The People would be eating them with his fingers.



I disagree, fork is acceptable. However, he’s got the wrong type. Has to be either a small blue plastic one, or one of those equally small wooden ones.


----------



## belboid (May 5, 2021)

Cid said:


> I disagree, fork is acceptable. However, he’s got the wrong type. Has to be either a small blue plastic one, or one of those equally small wooden ones.


It is a small white plastic one, you can see clearly from the other people. I guess its a north-east thing, the wrong colour, but it really should be wooden if he is to maintain his environmentalist reputation.


----------



## Raheem (May 5, 2021)

two sheds said:


> indeed, out of newspaper - I was being generous


I'm not sure I've seen newspaper in a chip shop for about 15 years. I even had chips at Beamish and they had greaseproof paper printed to look like newspaper.

He should, of course, be eating winkles with a toothpick.


----------



## Orang Utan (May 5, 2021)

Think it not legal anymore cos of hygiene. Or mebbe it was some bloody EU directive that we can now gloriously ignore.


----------



## fishfinger (May 5, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> Think it not legal anymore cos of hygiene. Or mebbe it was some bloody EU directive that we can now gloriously ignore.


Unfortunately is was nothing to do with the EU:

Brexiteer wanting fish & chips served in newspaper back finds it’s a UK law



> A Brexiteer who is looking forward to having fish and chips served in newspaper wrapping back once we leave the European Union made the painful discovery that it is actually a UK law yesterday.


----------



## Orang Utan (May 5, 2021)

fishfinger said:


> Unfortunately is was nothing to do with the EU:
> 
> Brexiteer wanting fish & chips served in newspaper back finds it’s a UK law


Still, at least we don’t have to eat straight bananas any more


----------



## fishfinger (May 5, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> Still, at least we don’t have to eat straight bananas any more


And none of those _Brussels_ sprouts 🇬🇧


----------



## Cid (May 5, 2021)

belboid said:


> It is a small white plastic one, you can see clearly from the other people. I guess its a north-east thing, the wrong colour, but it really should be wooden if he is to maintain his environmentalist reputation.



It's a standard white plastic fork. Has to be a chip fork.


----------



## two sheds (May 5, 2021)

fishfinger said:


> Unfortunately is was nothing to do with the EU:
> 
> Brexiteer wanting fish & chips served in newspaper back finds it’s a UK law


Political correctness gorn maaaaad newspapers are sterile, they even used to be used to deliver babies on


----------



## Raheem (May 5, 2021)

Cid said:


> It's a standard white plastic fork. Has to be a chip fork.


They're definitely 4-pronged white plastic forks. A crime against tradition and the environment in one go.


----------



## Orang Utan (May 5, 2021)

Round my way, chip forks are wooden - none of that plastic nonsense


----------



## Sue (May 5, 2021)

belboid said:


> It is a small white plastic one, you can see clearly from the other people. I guess its a north-east thing, the wrong colour, but it really should be wooden if he is to maintain his environmentalist reputation.


pWe used to view people who ate chips with one of those (wee wooden) forks as posh as you had to pay for them. (Can't remember if it was 2p or 5p.)


----------



## ska invita (May 5, 2021)

Sue said:


> pWe used to view people who ate chips with one of those (wee wooden) forks as posh as you had to pay for them. (Can't remember if it was 2p or 5p.)


curry sauce all over your chips you need a fork tbf


----------



## mauvais (May 5, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Having a real impact with voters.


Took me three watches to even find Kieth in this video. Mostly I was wondering what Steve Arnott was doing there.


----------



## two sheds (May 5, 2021)

Polls open as Starmer promises to ‘carry the can’ for Labour election results
					

Labour leader says he will take responsibility if results go badly, as MPs warn of ‘apathy’ among voters




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Sue (May 5, 2021)

mauvais said:


> Took me three watches to even find Kieth in this video. Mostly I was wondering what Steve Arnott was doing there.


Bit harsh. (((Martin Compston)))


----------



## muscovyduck (May 6, 2021)

What are they actually doing with all these photos, uploading them to lookbook or something?


----------



## SpookyFrank (May 6, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Polls open as Starmer promises to ‘carry the can’ for Labour election results
> 
> 
> Labour leader says he will take responsibility if results go badly, as MPs warn of ‘apathy’ among voters
> ...



To me him saying he'll 'take responsibility' is a clear statement that he won't be doing anything of the sort.

Still, great to get your damage limitation in _before_ the election. Inspires confidence and public trust.


----------



## SpookyFrank (May 6, 2021)

I have almost no free time today, left the house at 5.45am and won't be home until 7.30pm,  but I'm still going to drag myself to the polling booth to vote for Annie Onebutlabour.


----------



## brogdale (May 6, 2021)

The rictus grin is nearly up there with the Brown 'smile':


----------



## Mr Moose (May 6, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> I have almost no free time today, left the house at 5.45am and won't be home until 7.30pm,  but I'm still going to drag myself to the polling booth to vote for Annie Onebutlabour.



_Anyone?_


----------



## Johnny Vodka (May 6, 2021)

Surely you would still vote for Sir Keir over Boris?  I would choke a little on my own vomit while doing so, mind.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (May 6, 2021)

Johnny Vodka said:


> Surely you would still vote for Sir Keir over Boris?  I would choke a little on my own vomit while doing so, mind.



If it looked like genuinely being neck and neck and I thought there was a possibility my vote might help shift Johnson then I might hold my nose and vote for Starmer. That not being the case though I'm not adding my tiny little piece of validation to Labour in their current state. I'm not voting for the lesser of two evils to get a bit less of a kicking.


----------



## Orang Utan (May 6, 2021)

Johnny Vodka said:


> Surely you would still vote for Sir Keir over Boris?  I would choke a little on my own vomit while doing so, mind.


They’re not standing against each other in any of these elections though. Only their constituents can vote for them


----------



## Johnny Vodka (May 6, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> They’re not standing against each other in any of these elections though. Only their constituents can vote for them



You know what I mean tho - "Labour" over Tories?


----------



## Orang Utan (May 6, 2021)

Johnny Vodka said:


> You know what I mean tho - "Labour" over Tories?


Yes, but these are local elections, so the electorate should be reading the campaign literature of the local parties and candidates and not paying attention to the leaders’ farcical photo ops. Wish the press would realise this too.


----------



## brogdale (May 6, 2021)

These pics of Starmer get worse...


----------



## andysays (May 6, 2021)

brogdale said:


> These pics of Starmer get worse...
> 
> View attachment 266948


That's clearly *not* Starmer though - someone has actually taken a sip out of that pint.


----------



## glitch hiker (May 6, 2021)

mauvais said:


> Took me three watches to even find Kieth in this video. Mostly I was wondering what Steve Arnott was doing there.


Is that actually an ordinary member of the public or a shapeshifting crow?


----------



## JTG (May 6, 2021)

Saw something from somewhere (is that specific enough for you?) about an "unnamed Midlands MP" doing the rounds sounding out support in the PLP for a challenge after these results are in .

Blatantly Jess Phillips


----------



## two sheds (May 6, 2021)

stabbing this leader in the back then eh?


----------



## Funky_monks (May 6, 2021)

Kaka Tim said:


> Angela Raynor would be the obvious candidate - working class, good people skills, witty, popular, good communicator and with an eye catching back story - a perfect riposte to posh, elite johnson in a way starmer could never be. Leftish without being as scary as Jezza. Surprised she didnt go for it last time. She's also  driven and ambitious - so wouldn't be at all surprised if we see close associates of her briefing against kieth in the near future.


I honestly thought last time would be Rayner / Long Bailey as leader/deputy.


----------



## SpookyFrank (May 6, 2021)

Mr Moose said:


> _Anyone?_



At this point 'anyone but labour' is just a subcategory of 'anyone but the tories'.


----------



## SpookyFrank (May 6, 2021)

two sheds said:


> stabbing this leader in the back then eh?



Starmer can't exactly complain about that can he? He wears the mark of Cain himself.


----------



## JTG (May 6, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Starmer can't exactly complain about that can he? He wears the mark of Cain himself.


Twice in the space of his first four years as an MP. Quite something


----------



## teqniq (May 6, 2021)

Well now, pretty fucking abysmal of Keith:


----------



## ska invita (May 6, 2021)

Anyone watching?
Wtf is millibandism?


----------



## Raheem (May 6, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Anyone watching?
> Wtf is millibandism?



Dunno, but I'd guess it's to do with half of Labour MPs wishing they could have Milliband back.


----------



## ska invita (May 6, 2021)

It sounds like he's done blaming the corbynites and moved on to the millidandians. Curious to see the clip


----------



## brogdale (May 6, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Anyone watching?
> Wtf is millibandism?



Something about taxis scuttling around Liverpool?


----------



## two sheds (May 6, 2021)

Coming soon, Kieth photoshopped onto


----------



## Puddy_Tat (May 6, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Wtf is millibandism?



looking uncomfortable eating something in public, like kieth did this week but with fish and chips instead of a bacon butty?


----------



## ska invita (May 7, 2021)

Okay Starmer didn't say it... A "Labour Veteran" did...


God damn Twitter


----------



## brogdale (May 7, 2021)

Looks like young too many Ls has been on the pop😂


----------



## steeplejack (May 7, 2021)

Labour sinking rapidly with the loss of all hands in Hartlepool


----------



## Pickman's model (May 7, 2021)

Maybe starmer won't last as long as Corbyn did as leader


----------



## Humberto (May 7, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Maybe starmer won't last as long as Corbyn did as leader



Or as long as you predicted to much attention seeking fanfare: Boris Johnson definately wouldn't last 100 days?


----------



## Humberto (May 7, 2021)

You can take that to the bank


----------



## Humberto (May 7, 2021)

Definately


----------



## Pickman's model (May 7, 2021)

Humberto said:


> Or as long as you predicted to much attention seeking fanfare: Boris Johnson definately wouldn't last 100 days?


I never said that


----------



## Humberto (May 7, 2021)

What was it then I forget the exact amount of massively wrong predictions?


----------



## Humberto (May 7, 2021)

You 'syphalitic slug'


----------



## Humberto (May 7, 2021)

You 'slug scrotum'.


----------



## tony.c (May 7, 2021)

Humberto said:


> Definately


You are 'H'?!


----------



## JTG (May 7, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Anyone watching?
> Wtf is millibandism?



It means go after the soft left as well as the left.


----------



## ska invita (May 7, 2021)

Might be worth remembering that it was the membership who pushed for a second referendum at conference and it was the membership who gave Starmer the job , by some distance. Admittedly Starmer lied in his campaign for leader, but his credentials were there to see.

It would be interesting to know what the membership think at this point


----------



## The39thStep (May 7, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Might be worth remembering that it was the membership who pushed for a second referendum at conference and it was the membership who gave Starmer the job , by some distance. Admittedly Starmer lied in his campaign for leader, but his credentials were there to see.
> 
> It would be interesting to know what the membership think at this point



No denying that the membership was pro second referendum but who ran the second referendum campaign?


----------



## ska invita (May 7, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> No denying that the membership was pro second referendum but who ran the second referendum campaign?


I dont know what you want the answer to this to be 
Starmer?
Lots of people ran the campaign though, it had many hydra like heads


----------



## tommers (May 7, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Might be worth remembering that it was the membership who pushed for a second referendum at conference and it was the membership who gave Starmer the job , by some distance. Admittedly Starmer lied in his campaign for leader, but his credentials were there to see.
> 
> It would be interesting to know what the membership think at this point


I think we're all seeing that aren't we?


----------



## tommers (May 7, 2021)

Who could have predicted that deliberately fucking off a large portion of your voting base could have such dire consequences?


----------



## ska invita (May 7, 2021)

tommers said:


> I think we're all seeing that aren't we?


Sorry, seeing what?


----------



## tommers (May 7, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Sorry, seeing what?


What the membership thinks of Starmer.


----------



## ska invita (May 7, 2021)

tommers said:


> What the membership thinks of Starmer.



Anti-Starmer Corbynites do not equal the membership. My impression is Corbynites were about half the membership at peak. Tens of thousands are no longer members. Membership polling about Starmer was 50% positive not that long ago. Curious what it is now. 
Dont quote me on any of those figures


----------



## kabbes (May 7, 2021)

**


(That’s Corbyn’s deputy head of communications and strategy before the 2017 general election, for context).


----------



## glitch hiker (May 7, 2021)

Problem is Starmer won't resign because the real issue, IMO, is who he's listening to. The first thing his advisers and backers will tell him to do is _not_ listen to the left. Don't listen to Novara/Owne Jones and for god's sake do _not_ let Jeremy Corbyn back into the party. So they will calcify into further polarisation.

Anyway I'm off to cook an omelette.


----------



## Mr Moose (May 7, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> Problem is Starmer won't resign because the real issue, IMO, is who he's listening to. The first thing his advisers and backers will tell him to do is _not_ listen to the left. Don't listen to Novara/Owne Jones and for god's sake do _not_ let Jeremy Corbyn back into the party. So they will calcify into further polarisation.
> 
> Anyway I'm off to cook an omelette.



Please don’t tell Sir Keith about your omelette. He’ll turn it into a shit metaphor.


----------



## The39thStep (May 7, 2021)

ska invita said:


> I dont know what you want the answer to this to be
> Starmer?
> Lots of people ran the campaign though, it had many hydra like heads


My recollection was that initially there was no appetite within labour for a second referendum then suddenly there was a well funded campaign.


----------



## ska invita (May 7, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> My recollection was that initially there was no appetite within labour for a second referendum then suddenly there was a well funded campaign.


Go on....


----------



## Cid (May 7, 2021)

Johnny Vodka said:


> Surely you would still vote for Sir Keir over Boris?  I would choke a little on my own vomit while doing so, mind.



I think it’s a bit of an easier decision in an election like this… GE I might have nose-held, though in all honesty I probably wouldn’t have. Harder choice if my area wasn’t safe Labour, with a middle of the road mp. Thing is Starmer has been fucking awful on every level… that needed to have consequences for him. The wrong messages will be drawn, but fuck it. And fuck him.


----------



## Johnny Vodka (May 7, 2021)

Forgot about the whole voluntary donation to Labour through your union subscription thing.  Contacted my union rep and told them to untick.


----------



## editor (May 7, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> Problem is Starmer won't resign because the real issue, IMO, is who he's listening to. The first thing his advisers and backers will tell him to do is _not_ listen to the left. Don't listen to Novara/Owne Jones and for god's sake do _not_ let Jeremy Corbyn back into the party. So they will calcify into further polarisation.
> 
> Anyway I'm off to cook an omelette.


Remind me what happened to Labour's membership numbers when Corbyn was leader?


----------



## tony.c (May 7, 2021)

Johnny Vodka said:


> Forgot about the whole voluntary donation to Labour through your union subscription thing.  Contacted my union rep and told them to untick.


I don't think your union rep can do that for you, for obvious reasons. In my union you have to do that yourself.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 7, 2021)

tony.c said:


> I don't think your union rep can do that for you, for obvious reasons. In my union you have to do that yourself.


maybe they don't trust jv to untick the right box


----------



## TopCat (May 7, 2021)

tony.c said:


> I don't think your union rep can do that for you, for obvious reasons. In my union you have to do that yourself.


You opt out of the political fund.


----------



## tony.c (May 7, 2021)

TopCat said:


> You opt out of the political fund.


Yes, but from my experience (CWU Branch Organiser and Political Officer) members had to fill in a form to opt out. Maybe it can be done online now.


----------



## Johnny Vodka (May 7, 2021)

tony.c said:


> I don't think your union rep can do that for you, for obvious reasons. In my union you have to do that yourself.



No, she did (and probably had a wee cheer, she being a big SNP supporter   ).


----------



## tony.c (May 7, 2021)

Johnny Vodka said:


> No, she did (and probably had a wee cheer, she being a big SNP supporter   ).


Then presumably she could untick as many members as she can get away with?


----------



## Johnny Vodka (May 7, 2021)

tony.c said:


> Then presumably she could untick as many members as she can get away with?



I suppose she could, but I have no reason to believe she would.


----------



## two sheds (May 7, 2021)

I think I just emailed them (union itself rather than union rep though) and they emailed me back to say they'd done it which surprised me since I'd assumed I'd have to fill out a form, possibly in triplicate.


----------



## glitch hiker (May 7, 2021)

editor said:


> Remind me what happened to Labour's membership numbers when Corbyn was leader?


I believe it increased








						Revealed: how Jeremy Corbyn has reshaped the Labour party
					

Leader’s hopes of remoulding the party boosted as Guardian survey shows surge in members, huge support and shift to the left




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## editor (May 7, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> I believe it increased
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And what happened when Starmer took over? 

The guy's a spineless fucking disaster.


----------



## Hollis (May 7, 2021)

Discuss... I think this should manage to piss off everybody.. 😂


----------



## Ax^ (May 7, 2021)

why have I got a feeling that all Starmer is going to take away from all this


is that he will need to stand in front of more flags during press conference in future


----------



## Pickman's model (May 7, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> why have I got a feeling that all Starmer is going to take away from all this
> 
> 
> is that he will need to stand in front of more flags during press conference in future


that's excessive when all so many labour supporters want is to see him at one end of a rope


----------



## Kaka Tim (May 7, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> why have I got a feeling that all Starmer is going to take away from all this
> 
> 
> 
> ...



cos young (like under 35)  people living in cities paying sky hight rents and earning shit money on zero hours contracts arent properly working class cos they might be quite well educated and tend to be  a bit woke. And/or not totally white.
Labours problem is that it seems a big chunk of its former core vote in the "heartlands" are older, more socially conservative, not concerned about the environment and voted leave (thus seeing labour as "traitors") . Moves to appease these voters (who may also be homeowners and not particularly deprived) will struggle to seem credible and will alienate the younger more urban voters - who likely voted remain, are socially liberal and liked  corbyn).
Labours only hope is to campaign for progressive alternative and try to win people over to their point of view. And this is exactly what they wont do because "LABOUR ONLY WINS FROM THE CENTRE" is an iron law undisturbed by big changes in society, the economy or demographics.


----------



## two sheds (May 7, 2021)

Keir Starmer must go for Labour to become electable, says Lord Adonis
					

Blairite ex-minister says leader lacks political skills needed to defeat Conservatives




					www.independent.co.uk
				






> A senior member of Labour’s Blairite wing has said Keir Starmer must be replaced as leader to give the party a chance of winning elections.
> 
> Andrew Adonis - who served in the governments of Tony Blair and Gordon Brown - said that Starmer was “a nice man and a good human rights lawyer” but lacked the political skills to succeed at the highest level.



Oh the irony


----------



## marty21 (May 7, 2021)

Who is there you can take over from Starmer ? At the moment   I can't see an alternative leader . They might (and probably will) have to lose another general election and no one wants to lead a defeat.


----------



## Orang Utan (May 7, 2021)

marty21 said:


> Who is there you can take over from Starmer ? At the moment   I can't see an alternative leader . They might (and probably will) have to lose another general election and no one wants to lead a defeat.


I’ll give it a go. Can’t be any worse than the last few leaders


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (May 7, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> I’ll give it a go. Can’t be any worse than the last few leaders


Yeah, but I'm not voting for you because 5 years ago you retweeted something which someone else disagreed with in a manner which I can only describe as unsatisfactory.


----------



## Kaka Tim (May 7, 2021)

marty21 said:


> Who is there you can take over from Starmer ? At the moment   I can't see an alternative leader . They might (and probably will) have to lose another general election and no one wants to lead a defeat.



Angela Raynor by a mile - and Burnham if he becomes an MP.


----------



## ska invita (May 7, 2021)

Interesting (ish):

"I’ve been speaking to the left-wing Labour MP Lloyd Russell Moyle, who won the race on Twitter to be the first to criticise his leader this morning. He said Sir Keir Starmer went down well in some parts of the country, but in others he reminded people of Ed Miliband – “uncharismatic and inauthentic.”

He doesn’t think MPs in the *Socialist Campaign Group* will make a concerted move today - but they are meeting up with fellow left-wingers next week to start work on proposals for radical reform of the party.

*This would be either moving towards a federal structure in England - with leaders in cities and regions and a co-ordinator at Westminster - or turning it into a party of parties, such as by allying with the Greens."*


----------



## editor (May 7, 2021)

The Starmer twat has got to fucking go!


2001 lost 5 seats: Blair
2005 lost 48 seats: Blair
2010 lost 97 seats: Brown
2015 lost 26 seats: Miliband
2017 won 30 seats: Corbyn
*Corbyn is the only Labour in the 21st century to win more seats*

Votes won by Labour leaders

2019 - Corbyn 10,295,607
2017 - Corbyn 12,878,460
2015 - Miliband 9,347,273
2010 - Brown 8,609,527
2005 - Blair 9,552,436


----------



## editor (May 7, 2021)

marty21 said:


> Who is there you can take over from Starmer ? At the moment   I can't see an alternative leader . They might (and probably will) have to lose another general election and no one wants to lead a defeat.


My vote would go to









						Bell Ribeiro-Addy - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




Starmer got rid of her role as Shadow Minister for Immigration, probably because she's not right wing enough.


----------



## Brainaddict (May 7, 2021)

Zarah Sultana often impresses me, but she's a bit young and new, and perhaps 'too left wing' for much of the party to accept.


----------



## Chz (May 7, 2021)

kabbes said:


> **
> 
> 
> (That’s Corbyn’s deputy head of communications and strategy before the 2017 general election, for context).



While I do think Stamer's startlingly useless, I don't think there'd be any point to resigning over just Hartlepool..
Do they think ex-Labour voters look at Labour, say "bah, that's not left wing enough for us, we're going to vote for the fucking Tories instead"?
Hartlepool would've happened regardless of leadership.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 7, 2021)

Chz said:


> While I do think Stamer's startlingly useless, I don't think there'd be any point to resigning over just Hartlepool..
> Do they think ex-Labour voters look at Labour, say "bah, that's not left wing enough for us, we're going to vote for the fucking Tories instead"?


I don't think labour voters will have voted Tory in great numbers but instead stopped in

What's the point of starmer if he can't bring them out


----------



## two sheds (May 7, 2021)

He's just not electable  Labour needs someone who's electable.


----------



## editor (May 7, 2021)

two sheds said:


> He's just not electable  Labour needs someone who's electable.


He's just irredeemably dull. Stiff as cardboard. Zero charisma.


----------



## belboid (May 7, 2021)

Apparently what the country needs isn't a dull middle manager with no ideas of his own.   I'm shocked.


----------



## Wilf (May 7, 2021)

editor said:


> The Starmer twat has got to fucking go!
> 
> 
> 2001 lost 5 seats: Blair
> ...


The stats at the top choose to miss out 2019, where Corbyn lost 60 seats.


----------



## Ax^ (May 7, 2021)

count Binface is my suggestions

cannot do much worst


----------



## two sheds (May 7, 2021)

Wilf said:


> The stats at the top choose to miss out 2019, where Corbyn lost 60 seats.


You always have to spoil things


----------



## BlanketAddict (May 7, 2021)

David Milliband checking his phone a lot today...


----------



## Sue (May 7, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> I’ll give it a go. Can’t be any worse than the last few leaders


Hopefully you can at least hold a pint like you've done it before and therefore win over the working classes (I'm sure that's pretty much all that's required .)


----------



## not a trot (May 7, 2021)

two sheds said:


> He's just not electable  Labour needs someone who's electable.



So who was the last electable left wing Labour leader ?

Just asking for a friend.


----------



## glitch hiker (May 7, 2021)

editor said:


> And what happened when Starmer took over?
> 
> The guy's a spineless fucking disaster.


I wasn't suggesting otherwise


----------



## Brainaddict (May 7, 2021)

I hadn't paid much attention to their actual Hartlepool campaign. It may surprise you to learn that it was a steaming pile of excrement, with a flag stuck in the top: ‘Obsessed with the flag’: Labour recriminations begin in Hartlepool


----------



## elbows (May 7, 2021)

not a trot said:


> So who was the last electable left wing Labour leader ?
> 
> Just asking for a friend.



If electable is just code for being treated kindly by the terrible media in this country, then answer came there none.


----------



## campanula (May 7, 2021)

Jesus wept - all the fault of 'long Corbyn'.

Can't bear anymore - off to the allotment quicksmart.


----------



## strung out (May 7, 2021)

Keir Starmer has taken Labour to their lowest number of sitting MPs since 1935. Shameful.


----------



## elbows (May 7, 2021)

I dont think I'd place any hope in Labour being a useful force unless they lost their sense of electoral entitlement, at which point I doubt they would have much advantage over just starting from scratch with a different party anyway, hopefully with a less dull and hideous mix of positions.


----------



## Cid (May 7, 2021)

Wilf said:


> The stats at the top choose to miss out 2019, where Corbyn lost 60 seats.



It's also a bit daft framing it like that (in terms of seats lost year by year). I mean what Corbyn actually did in 2017 was win 4 more seats than Brown. Blair may have lost seats, but he lost them after achieving a landslide victory in 1997. And 2019 was the lowest number of seats since 1935. Until the 2021 Hartlepool byelection of course.

Not to give too much credit to titanic piece of shit Blair, or to diminish too much 2017. But yeah.


----------



## Brainaddict (May 7, 2021)

At the risk of ventriloquising voters who aren't me, I wonder if might occur to the Labour Party head honchos one day that when many voters say in focus groups that they value patriotism, what they might mean is something like 'I value a country that makes me feel valued, and I insist on wanting that country even when it seems fictional'. The flag is not the point you worthless PR-machine pricks.


----------



## brogdale (May 7, 2021)

He's on live and sounding quite unhinged.


----------



## Mr Moose (May 7, 2021)

Starmer looking like he’s about to burst into tears, which would be a rare venture into the human world for him.


----------



## glitch hiker (May 7, 2021)

marty21 said:


> Who is there you can take over from Starmer ? At the moment   I can't see an alternative leader . They might (and probably will) have to lose another general election and no one wants to lead a defeat.


Im guessing Liz Kendall, Yvette Cooper, or Emily Thornberry would put themselves forward, or Jess Philips. Andy Burnham too.

So, no one


----------



## Johnny Vodka (May 7, 2021)

Or is he taking a shit?  Maybe a cry- shit?


----------



## Mr Moose (May 7, 2021)

Brainaddict said:


> At the risk of ventriloquising voters who aren't me, I wonder if might occur to the Labour Party head honchos one day that when many voters say in focus groups that they value patriotism, what they might mean is something like 'I value a country that makes me feel valued, and I insist on wanting that country even when it seems fictional'. The flag is not the point you worthless PR-machine pricks.



This is right, but let’s face it, it’s an uphill battle. Labour can be spun as not valuing certain people if it so much as shows a bit of support for BLM. It gets a pile on from left and right.


----------



## chilango (May 7, 2021)

brogdale said:


> He's on live and sounding quite unhinged.
> 
> View attachment 267176



what a dull selection of books


----------



## Doctor Carrot (May 7, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> Im guessing Liz Kendall, Yvette Cooper, or Emily Thornberry would put themselves forward, or Jess Philips. Andy Burnham too.
> 
> So, no one



Amazingly I reckon Burnham would have the best crack at it and he's not even an MP anymore!


----------



## TopCat (May 7, 2021)

chilango said:


> what a dull selection of books


He needs a copy of Justine to liven it up.


----------



## Quote (May 7, 2021)

Starmer advisor:







"You're gonna need a bigger flag..."


----------



## hitmouse (May 7, 2021)

Fucking hell, have we had this one?








						Two in five healthcare workers vote Conservative in local elections
					

Just 32% of those surveyed said they intended to vote for the Labour Party.




					nursingnotes.co.uk
				





> *A massive 42% of healthcare workers intended to vote Conservative in yesterday’s local elections.*
> 
> Two in five healthcare workers voted for the Conservative Party in this week’s local elections, according to a recent poll.
> 
> ...



Still, the Conservatives have been so generous to healthcare workers since 2019, it's hard to see how Labour could possibly compete with that.


----------



## Cid (May 7, 2021)

brogdale said:


> He's on live and sounding quite unhinged.
> 
> View attachment 267176



For reference this is about 16:03 on today's BBC 1 election coverage.


----------



## teqniq (May 7, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Fucking hell, have we had this one?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


i saw this earlier. Difficult to understand.


----------



## Hollis (May 7, 2021)

editor said:


> The Starmer twat has got to fucking go!
> 
> *1997 won 145 seats:  Blair*
> 2001 lost 5 seats: Blair
> ...



Amazing what you can show with timelines..


----------



## TopCat (May 7, 2021)

teqniq said:


> i saw this earlier. Difficult to understand.


It would be wise to listen to what they have to say.


----------



## Argonia (May 7, 2021)

Wait how come 10,724,953 votes in 2001 gave a stonking majority but 10,295,607 votes in 2019 gave the worst results since 1935?


----------



## teqniq (May 7, 2021)

TopCat said:


> It would be wise to listen to what they have to say.


You mean stuff like this?



Nevermind the blatant corruption eh? I wonder where she gets her news from.


----------



## TopCat (May 7, 2021)

teqniq said:


> You mean stuff like this?
> 
> View attachment 267186
> 
> Nevermind the blatant corruption eh? I wonder where she gets her news from.


I think you need to take from that statement that the nurse perceived the present govt to be more competent at managing capital and society than Starmer and his lot.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 7, 2021)

editor said:


> He's just irredeemably dull. Stiff as cardboard. Zero charisma.


Dull is fine when you have some actual principles. Corbyn has - to many - dull hobbies. But at least he has some actual beliefs. Starmer hides any he has under a bushel


----------



## Pickman's model (May 7, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I think you need to take from that statement that the nurse perceived the present govt to be more competent at managing capital and society than Starmer and his lot.


Well we'll never know if starmer's more competent because he'll never get the opportunity to demonstrate how he'd manage capital and society


----------



## Pickman's model (May 7, 2021)

Argonia said:


> Wait how come 10,724,953 votes in 2001 gave a stonking majority but 10,295,607 votes in 2019 gave the worst results since 1935?


Corbyn


----------



## chilango (May 7, 2021)

Argonia said:


> Wait how come 10,724,953 votes in 2001 gave a stonking majority but 10,295,607 votes in 2019 gave the worst results since 1935?



Cos in 2001 they were the right kind of votes (for Blair) but in 2019 they were the wrong kind of votes (for Corbyn).


----------



## Jeff Robinson (May 7, 2021)

what is this


----------



## teqniq (May 7, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I think you need to take from that statement that the nurse perceived the present govt to be more competent at managing capital and society than Starmer and his lot.


Misinformed more like


----------



## Cid (May 7, 2021)

Argonia said:


> Wait how come 10,724,953 votes in 2001 gave a stonking majority but 10,295,607 votes in 2019 gave the worst results since 1935?



UK population 2001: 59m
UK population 2021: 67.5m

Other factors... But this is % of vote for each:

2001

Lab: 40.7%
Con: 31.6%
LD: 18.3%
SNP: 1.8%

2019

Con: 43.6%
Lab: 32.2%
SNP: 7.4%
LD: 1.7%


----------



## Pickman's model (May 7, 2021)

teqniq said:


> Misinformed more lies like


I dunno I think starmer would struggle to be more competent than the current lot.


----------



## Cid (May 7, 2021)

Jeff Robinson said:


> what is this




It's Keir Starmer about an hour ago.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 7, 2021)

Cid said:


> UK population 2001: 59m
> UK population 2021: 67.5m
> 
> Other factors... But this is % of vote for each:
> ...


Two factors you omit, namely that it takes rather more labour votes to win a seat than it does Tory votes and the distribution of Tory votes makes it easier for them to win too. Being as so many labour votes are in hackney and Lambeth and so on.


----------



## TopCat (May 7, 2021)

Milliband, if he could recreate the “just back from holiday with a beard” look he sported once a few years ago, plus punched someone and decked them for being a bully, that would be a more successful strategy.


----------



## Steel Icarus (May 7, 2021)

Kieth says utterly nothing in that interview. Nothing.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 7, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Milliband, if he could could recreate the “just back from holiday with a beard” look he sported once a few years ago, plus punched someone and decked them for being a bully, that would be a more successful strategy.


Exhume the late Jim Callaghan and put him back in charge, stand him on the 1979 labour manifesto, and he'd almost certainly win more seats than starmer would


----------



## TopCat (May 7, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Well we'll never know if starmer's more competent because he'll never get the opportunity to demonstrate how he'd manage capital and society


He won’t spell out his vision on how he would do it and what it would be.


----------



## Argonia (May 7, 2021)

I hate first past the post so much, it's like living in a one party state


----------



## butchersapron (May 7, 2021)

Cid said:


> It's Keir Starmer about an hour ago.


It's the leader of the internal left-wing, _hey let's have a second ref and support remain - BUT from  the left_!!! campaign is what it is. He helped set this wrecking ball rolling.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 7, 2021)

TopCat said:


> He won’t spell out his vision on how he would do it and what it would be.


He hasn't any vision. He's not going waving, he's drowning. And the most sickening thing about it is the labour NEC refuse to put him out of our misery


----------



## TopCat (May 7, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Exhume the late Jim Callaghan and put him back in charge, stand him on the 1979 labour manifesto, and he'd almost certainly win more seats than starmer would


That would not be sensible. He would be all manky. He family would be upset.
My option however is a goer and beefed up Ed would likely get more sex so trebles all round.


----------



## brogdale (May 7, 2021)

Jeff Robinson said:


> what is this



Something we can all get behind...shirley?


----------



## TopCat (May 7, 2021)

S☼I said:


> Kieth says utterly nothing in that interview. Nothing.


I’m having a drink before watching.


----------



## TopCat (May 7, 2021)

Jeff Robinson said:


> what is this



I’m going in.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 7, 2021)

TopCat said:


> That would not be sensible. He would be all manky. He family would be upset.
> My option however is a goer and beefed up Ed would likely get more sex so trebles all round.


I suspect the Callaghans would be behind it and would love to see red Jim ride again


----------



## agricola (May 7, 2021)

Brainaddict said:


> At the risk of ventriloquising voters who aren't me, I wonder if might occur to the Labour Party head honchos one day that when many voters say in focus groups that they value patriotism, what they might mean is something like 'I value a country that makes me feel valued, and I insist on wanting that country even when it seems fictional'. The flag is not the point you worthless PR-machine pricks.



They honestly don't understand that it isn't.  Patriotism is something like football, something that the proles like and so the politician must claim to like it too.


----------



## JTG (May 7, 2021)

Jeff Robinson said:


> what is this


----------



## TopCat (May 7, 2021)

Has he got social anxiety?


----------



## TopCat (May 7, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> I suspect the Callaghans would be behind it and would love to see red Jim ride again


They can plastasize a body. That might work then. Red Jim. In the spirit of compromise comrade I will go with your plan.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 7, 2021)

TopCat said:


> They can plastasize a body. That might work then. Red Jim. In the spirit of compromise comrade I will go with your plan.


And he wouldn't embarrass himself in interviews as starmer does, maintaining instead a mysterious silence


----------



## elbows (May 7, 2021)

He'd probably manage to drink more of his pint than Starmer too.


----------



## butchersapron (May 7, 2021)

agricola said:


> They honestly don't understand that it isn't.  Patriotism is something like football, something that the proles like and so the politician must claim to like it too.


The key is to be genuinely part of something - something old or new. Something that you grew up in or took part in kicking off. Labour still are in some areas - the areas they are now losing.  Shortcuts like this will be sniffed out for the cynical crap they are in exactly these areas. To do it this way is to endorse and be part of bad things. A plan drawn up by people who think working class people don't really exist beyond their marketing can only be 1997 lucky once -  or very very rarely.


----------



## SpookyFrank (May 7, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Has he got social anxiety?



Some people have unwarranted feelings of inadequacy and worthlessness.

Others have _entirely_ warranted feelings of inadequacy and worthlessness.


----------



## elbows (May 7, 2021)

Maybe he's got a prosecution complex.


----------



## maomao (May 7, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I think you need to take from that statement that the nurse perceived the present govt to be more competent at managing capital and society than Starmer and his lot.


I reckon she's right. I voted Labour out of cowardice at the last three elections but I don't reckon anything would be better for anyone under Labour. If anything the Tories recognise the need to throw a few crumbs here and there whereas Sir Kieth's proved himself willing to stab his party and the working class in the back without having had a sniff of power.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 7, 2021)

maomao said:


> I reckon she's right. I voted Labour out of cowardice at the last three elections but I don't reckon anything would be better for anyone under Labour. If anything the Tory's recognise the need to throw a few crumbs here and there whereas Sir Kieth's proved himself willing to stab his party and the working class in the back without having had a sniff of power.


That's unfair. He's quite prepared to stab them in the front, as with his numerous and ostentatious acts of support for the Tory government in votes in parliament


----------



## gentlegreen (May 7, 2021)

maomao said:


> I reckon she's right. I voted Labour out of cowardice at the last three elections but I don't reckon anything would be better for anyone under Labour. If anything the Tory's recognise the need to throw a few crumbs here and there whereas Sir Kieth's proved himself willing to stab his party and the working class in the back without having had a sniff of power.


Would Labour have blown 10 battleships' worth of taxes on a critical project run on Excel 2007 ?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 7, 2021)

gentlegreen said:


> Would Labour have blown 10 battleships' worth of taxes on a critical project run on Excel 2007 ?


It must be many decades since the royal navy retired its last battleship


----------



## elbows (May 7, 2021)

gentlegreen said:


> Would Labour have blown 10 battleships' worth of taxes on a critical project run on Excel 2007 ?



They wasted a lot of resources in the swine flu pandemic by pointlessly throwing tamiflu at the problem.


----------



## maomao (May 7, 2021)

gentlegreen said:


> Would Labour have blown 10 battleships' worth of taxes on a critical project run on Excel 2007 ?


Almost certainly.


----------



## gentlegreen (May 7, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> It must be many decades since the royal navy retired its last battleship


well whatever the boat is that just got launched ...


----------



## TopCat (May 7, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> And he wouldn't embarrass himself in interviews as starmer does, maintaining instead a mysterious silence


Like the Queen Mum for her last decades.


----------



## ska invita (May 7, 2021)

As an aside, Starmer hasn't faced a conference yet. Covid has allowed him to be isolated from the membership till now

Could be an interesting one.


----------



## JTG (May 7, 2021)

ska invita said:


> As an aside, Starmer hasn't faced a conference yet. Covid has allowed him to be isolated from the membership till now
> 
> Could be an interesting one.


That's meant that Evans has never had to have his appointment as General Sec ratified, enabling his purge of the left to continue unchallenged for 18 months until he has to face the membership


----------



## Mr Moose (May 7, 2021)

Doctor Carrot said:


> Amazingly I reckon Burnham would have the best crack at it and he's not even an MP anymore!



Which is not unconnected to his popularity. As a candidate for Labour Leader he was as popular as yesterday’s cat sick.

Of course the problem with that leadership contest was that it was dominated by New Labour has been’s who could do nothing else but apologise for the state of the post crash economy. There is no excuse for Starmer (or whoever next) not to be making the case for some nationalisations and other interventions now.


----------



## Orang Utan (May 7, 2021)

Saw this on Facebook:
“I don't understand how Labour lost after they did everything their enemies told them to do in order to win.”


----------



## JTG (May 7, 2021)

Here we go

*or not as the case may be


----------



## agricola (May 7, 2021)

JTG said:


> Here we go
> 
> View attachment 267201



fake, sadly


----------



## JTG (May 7, 2021)

Yeah, just got that. Shame I'd love her to take them on their final tailspin into irrelevance


----------



## killer b (May 7, 2021)

what was it??


----------



## MickiQ (May 7, 2021)

Ironically appearing in my Facebook feed today, curryandpaxton are sunglasses retailers if anyone was wondering


----------



## Sue (May 7, 2021)

killer b said:


> what was it??


Jess Philips allegedly calling for a new leader.


----------



## elbows (May 7, 2021)

Kuenssberg has spoken, the usual dreary pantomime.



> Normally composed Starmer frustrated by results





> He might not be ready to set anything out but plenty of people in the Labour movement already have - from Len McCluskey to Peter Mandelson.
> 
> Starmer may have to shout quite loudly to be heard over the debate that is already raging.
> 
> One of his allies told me Starmer is going to have to take his party by the scruff of the neck.



From the 16:47 entry of their live updates page. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-57016689


----------



## JTG (May 7, 2021)

Sue said:


> Jess Philips allegedly calling for a new leader.


I mean I believed it because it's entirely believable. She's definitely thinking it and she thinks it should be her


----------



## Sue (May 7, 2021)

JTG said:


> I mean I believed it because it's entirely believable. She's definitely thinking it and she thinks it should be her


Oh yeah, me too.


----------



## chilango (May 7, 2021)

The BBC were name dropping her as potential leader when Clie Lewis was trying put his points across earlier...


----------



## andysays (May 7, 2021)

Am I misremembering, or did Philips say she would run but then pull out with no explanation last time?


----------



## campanula (May 7, 2021)

O god, this is depressing. I didn't vote for the first time in my life because I was so fucking disgusted with the snivelling behaviour of the  Starmer and the completely invisible shadow cabinet. I don't see any way back for Labour...mostly because they are tone-deaf, inauthentic, have no sense of belonging or committment...basically Tory-lite with career expectations rather than even a smidgeon of ideology (well, any position at all), other than a grinning haircut, uncomfortably holding a pint. I found it condescending tripe, beneath contempt,. What other recourse do we have? Even now, the wrong questions are being asked. I can't bel;ieve lots of former Labour voters have suddenly become right wing...but an endorsement of Starmer would have been gleefully used to further disenfranchise anyone who had any disenchantment with authoritarian populist bully boys. What to do?


----------



## JTG (May 7, 2021)

andysays said:


> Am I misremembering, or did Philips say she would run but then pull out with no explanation last time?


She did indeed. The no explanation also extended to where the funds she'd raised for her campaign went


----------



## Johnny Vodka (May 7, 2021)

Good live JC interview on channel 4 news tonight.


----------



## belboid (May 7, 2021)

andysays said:


> Am I misremembering, or did Philips say she would run but then pull out with no explanation last time?


she 'realised' it wasn't for her after a farcical hustings, where she basically told scotland and wales to fuck off (which was, frankly, the only thing she had to say)


----------



## Artaxerxes (May 7, 2021)

andysays said:


> Am I misremembering, or did Philips say she would run but then pull out with no explanation last time?


She's said so much it's hard to keep track.

I remember the knife comment mind


----------



## RileyOBlimey (May 7, 2021)

andysays said:


> Am I misremembering, or did Philips say she would run but then pull out with no explanation last time?



She didnt have support from the unions or membership. She’s favoured by Murdoch so must be a total wrongun.


----------



## maomao (May 7, 2021)

Starker has conceded that the party has lost the trust if working people. He hasn't conceded it's his fucking fault though. 

If Bailey takes London I wonder what Kahn's reaction will be.


----------



## JTG (May 7, 2021)

So, SKS number one reason for not voting Labour. "Too left wing" (lol) and "too woke" - the idiot option - are well down the list


----------



## hash tag (May 7, 2021)

gentlegreen said:


> well whatever the boat is that just got launched ...


His boat didn't come in.


----------



## kebabking (May 7, 2021)

Rather amusing to see 'too left wing', and 'too right wing' tied on 4%.

Bizarrely cautious, and embarrassing bandwagon jumping, all under the same hair...


----------



## hitmouse (May 7, 2021)

JTG said:


> View attachment 267214
> 
> So, SKS number one reason for not voting Labour. "Too left wing" (lol) and "too woke" - the idiot option - are well down the list



Do not trust/don't keep promises scoring pretty highly at 8% as well. Why would Jeremy Corbyn do this?


----------



## Leighsw2 (May 7, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> It must be many decades since the royal navy retired its last battleship


Early 60s I think.


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 7, 2021)

Jeff Robinson said:


> what is this


Even taking those answers at face value, the "bold vision" is to "learn lessons"? That's bold, is it? The sort of thing you'd expect from a 6-year old who has been bullying their younger sibling? Bold?


----------



## editor (May 7, 2021)

Johnny Vodka said:


> Good live JC interview on channel 4 news tonight.


I hope he took full responsibility for Starmer's disaster.


----------



## Mr Moose (May 7, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Fucking hell, have we had this one?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I would like to know the methodology behind that survey.

Nursing Notes appears to be a bit of a one man band. Undertaking a poll of 1843 people is a big undertaking and there is no indication of how it was carried out.

The website has no ‘about us’ section either. Doesn’t seem keen on Labour, though isn’t keen on giving pandemic credit to the Government either.


----------



## The39thStep (May 7, 2021)

JTG said:


> Here we go
> 
> *or not as the case may be


----------



## glitch hiker (May 7, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> He hasn't any vision. He's not going waving, he's drowning. And the most sickening thing about it is the labour NEC refuse to put him out of our misery


It's the same spiel he came out with when he took over. a year and half later and literally nothing. 

Throughout all that intervening time, all the Tory sleaze and death, and here we are right back at the beginning


----------



## killer b (May 7, 2021)

Not a fan of Marina Hyde, but I thought this paragraph in her latest totally nails it.

_Increasingly, Labour’s stated mission to rekindle with its lost heartlands feels a bit maudlin and entitled. It’s got the flavour of one of those stories where a man sets up a piano beneath his ex-girlfriend’s window and vows to play it until she gets back with him. Journalists who don’t really get it cover the story with headlines like “The last romantic”. All normal women who read it are just thinking: I know exactly what kind of guy he is. I hope she and her new boyfriend will eventually be able to relax in witness protection._


----------



## Orang Utan (May 7, 2021)

Jeff Robinson said:


> what is this



"the electorate has told us to fuck off, so we're going to consult focus groups to find out just exactly how we should fuck off"


----------



## JTG (May 7, 2021)

Lord Camomile said:


> Even taking those answers at face value, the "bold vision" is to "learn lessons"? That's bold, is it? The sort of thing you'd expect from a 6-year old who has been bullying their younger sibling? Bold?


Same thing the likes of Nandy ran a whole leadership campaign on. "We're shit, sorry, we can change, we know we don't deserve you".


----------



## gosub (May 7, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> Ironically appearing in my Facebook feed today, curryandpaxton are sunglasses retailers if anyone was wondering
> View attachment 267203


should have gone to specsaverts


----------



## MickiQ (May 7, 2021)

gosub said:


> should have gone to specsaverts


Or Barnard Castle


----------



## The39thStep (May 7, 2021)

Kollontai and the Workers Opposition were right


----------



## gosub (May 7, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> Or Barnard Castle




closest he got to that particular open goal :






taken in Brewdog's LONDON brewery


----------



## Funky_monks (May 7, 2021)

editor said:


> And what happened when Starmer took over?
> 
> The guy's a spineless fucking disaster.



I didn't want to be right when I binned my membership when Starmer took over, but I was. I think the whole thing has left my whole family more disillusioned than me - my parents have been members as long as I can remember. I, on the other hand was 17 in 1997 and would have voted for Blair, I then watched as they (slowly) betrayed everything I stood for and sold my generation down the river. I joined, last of my family to do so (my brother joined somewhen in the 2010s, with Corbyn, but always cynical. 

Let down again.


----------



## lazythursday (May 7, 2021)

Perhaps I have rose tinted spectacles. But even at the height of New Labour I didn't despise the party like I do now. It was impossible not to have grudging respect for the efficient machine Blair and co built. And I pretty much grew up in a Labour Club, I was delivering leaflets as soon as I could walk. But now I'm left with such cold fury at how dreadful these people are and their bland patronising nothingness. So glad I was away this week and missed the ballot box tbh.


----------



## The39thStep (May 7, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> "the electorate has told us to fuck off, so we're going to consult focus groups to find out just exactly how we should fuck off"


Very good


----------



## killer b (May 7, 2021)

lazythursday said:


> Perhaps I have rose tinted spectacles. But even at the height of New Labour I didn't despise the party like I do now. It was impossible not to have grudging respect for the efficient machine Blair and co built. And I pretty much grew up in a Labour Club, I was delivering leaflets as soon as I could walk. But now I'm left with such cold fury at how dreadful these people are and their bland patronising nothingness. So glad I was away this week and missed the ballot box tbh.


it's just because we almost had the lot, and they fucked it.


----------



## The39thStep (May 7, 2021)

gosub said:


> closest he got to that particular open goal :
> 
> 
> 
> ...


About as much depth and clarity as a muddy puddle


----------



## hitmouse (May 7, 2021)

Mr Moose said:


> I would like to know the methodology behind that survey.
> 
> Nursing Notes appears to be a bit of a one man band. Undertaking a poll of 1843 people is a big undertaking and there is no indication of how it was carried out.
> 
> The website has no ‘about us’ section either. Doesn’t seem keen on Labour, though isn’t keen on giving pandemic credit to the Government either.


No about us section as such, but here's their "transparency statements":








						Transparency Statements
					

NursingNotes brings you free-to-view content that, as nurses and allied healthcare professionals, we feel passionate about.




					nursingnotes.co.uk
				



And editorial team:








						Editorial Board
					

The Editorial Board works alongside the Editor to give NursingNotes editorial direction and provide expert leadership.




					nursingnotes.co.uk
				




If their mission is just to act as a voice for nurses then not being particularly keen on either Labour or tories makes sense imo.


----------



## Artaxerxes (May 7, 2021)

lazythursday said:


> Perhaps I have rose tinted spectacles. But even at the height of New Labour I didn't despise the party like I do now. It was impossible not to have grudging respect for the efficient machine Blair and co built. And I pretty much grew up in a Labour Club, I was delivering leaflets as soon as I could walk. But now I'm left with such cold fury at how dreadful these people are and their bland patronising nothingness. So glad I was away this week and missed the ballot box tbh.



The main issues with Blair were Iraq and PFI.

He also wasn't thinking long term about how to keep Labour relevant or appeal to wider voters. Keeping areas in managed decline and massively dumping immigrants in specific areas with no increase in amenities or services.

The left behinds of vote leave myth and ukip all could have been handheld by Blair.


----------



## gosub (May 7, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> About as much depth and clarity as a muddy puddle


The beer or the muddy puddle holding the beer?


----------



## ska invita (May 7, 2021)

Is Jess Phillips in any way important? I think of her as a backbench crank but her name comes up a lot.


----------



## glitch hiker (May 7, 2021)

gosub said:


> should have gone to specsaverts


should have gone to spellcheckers 

sorrynotsorry


----------



## Mr Moose (May 7, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> No about us section as such, but here's their "transparency statements":
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Fair do’s.


----------



## Orang Utan (May 7, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Is Jess Phillips in any way important? I think of her as a backbench crank but her name comes up a lot.


Has a lot of showbiz mates who think she’s the saviour of the Labour Party


----------



## killer b (May 7, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Is Jess Phillips in any way important? I think of her as a backbench crank but her name comes up a lot.


she's the favourite back bench (labour) crank of the murdoch press, but otherwise pretty irrelevant


----------



## JTG (May 7, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Is Jess Phillips in any way important? I think of her as a backbench crank but her name comes up a lot.


She thinks of herself... A lot


----------



## cybershot (May 7, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Is Jess Phillips in any way important? I think of her as a backbench crank but her name comes up a lot.



Her own ward hate her. She does nothing. Except for when there’s a camera opportunity.


----------



## Artaxerxes (May 7, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Is Jess Phillips in any way important? I think of her as a backbench crank but her name comes up a lot.



She thinks she is and the papers love her cos she's got an accent so they can pretend she's deep working class


----------



## Funky_monks (May 7, 2021)

Interesting that the town of my birth is having none of it  - although I'm assured that it's because the council, run by the not always popular Paul Dennet has bypassed the rules stopping councils from building council houses by setting up a building company to...er.... build council houses. And also possibly something to do with Andy Burnham not standing for Boris's shite. 

Always proud of the billigerant Salfordians.
LABOUR STRIKE AT THE TORIES WORSLEY HEART, LIBERAL DEMOCRATS MAKE A TINY DENT AND IT'S FAREWELL TO THE CITIES ONLY INDEPENDENT COUNCILLOR - FOR NOW?


----------



## The39thStep (May 7, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Is Jess Phillips in any way important? I think of her as a backbench crank but her name comes up a lot.


She's a useful idiot . Plays safe and  thinks too much of herself to be the stalking horse candidate., but can be primed to stick the boot in or land a blow from a far.


----------



## JTG (May 7, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> She thinks she is and the papers love her cos she's got an accent so they can pretend she's deep working class


Her mum was an NHS chief exec but she says "bab" a lot so she must be salt of the earth


----------



## magneze (May 7, 2021)

"Leader says party considering moving HQ out of London to show it represents the whole country after May election defeats."

Yep, turn up symbolism. Don't actually DO anything.

Waste of space.


----------



## Funky_monks (May 7, 2021)

I've just read an article in the Indy, Kicking Kier, but essentially blaming Corbyn by Anna Soubry. 

Today is getting pretty fucking surreal......


----------



## Rimbaud (May 7, 2021)

lazythursday said:


> Perhaps I have rose tinted spectacles. But even at the height of New Labour I didn't despise the party like I do now. It was impossible not to have grudging respect for the efficient machine Blair and co built. And I pretty much grew up in a Labour Club, I was delivering leaflets as soon as I could walk. But now I'm left with such cold fury at how dreadful these people are and their bland patronising nothingness. So glad I was away this week and missed the ballot box tbh.



Listening to Mandelson this morning harp on about how Labour needs to learn the lessons of 97.

That's all they have isn't it? A cult of following a politically strategy which worked 25 years ago, and other than that blind faith they are nothing. They have nothing to offer.

25 years ago - before the Internet, before home computers, before mobile phones really took off. Before tuition fees and before an entire generation was priced out of the housing market and condemned to exploitation by unscrupulous landlords, and when you could quit school at 16 and get a job. Before the eurozone existed. When Yugoslavia still existed. When the British economy was still larger than the Chinese economy.

In other words - a completely fucking different world, but the Labour right refuses to move on and look at how things have changed.


----------



## butchersapron (May 7, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> The left behinds of vote leave myth and ukip all could have been handheld by Blair.



How could he/they have dealt with this myth?

Myth, you clueless prat.


----------



## butchersapron (May 7, 2021)

Funky_monks said:


> I've just read an article in the Indy, Kicking Kier, but essentially blaming Corbyn by Anna Soubry.
> 
> Today is getting pretty fucking surreal......


you didn't have to - and that's entirely in line with well...everything ever.


----------



## butchersapron (May 7, 2021)

In the old days, people did hang around on the back benches. Even after being PM. They didn't just retire to their pension. Gordon brown's hair went full grey as well.


----------



## killer b (May 7, 2021)

butchersapron said:


> In the old days, people did hang around on the back benches. Even after being PM. They didn't just retire to their pension. Gordon brown's hair went full grey as well.


I remember being surprised when watching a clip of Tony Benn making a speech to parliament in the 1999 and seeing Ted Heath still on the benches


----------



## Funky_monks (May 7, 2021)

butchersapron said:


> you didn't have to - and that's entirely in line with well...everything ever.



I kind of did, I read the strapline and thought "this sounds nuts" so I spent a whole precious minute of my life reading it. I was right, it is nuts. It didn't make me chuckle like the TIG/CHUK days though, I miss those.


----------



## JTG (May 7, 2021)

Rimbaud said:


> Listening to Mandelson this morning harp on about how Labour needs to learn the lessons of 97.
> 
> That's all they have isn't it? A cult of following a politically strategy which worked 25 years ago, and other than that blind faith they are nothing. They have nothing to offer.
> 
> ...


Saw a take today from a Blairite acquaintance (OK, enemy) which amounted to "the woke middle class left are obsessed with food banks and poverty when the real working class own their own homes and have foreign holidays" and I was agog. Just complete failure to understand the material conditions of anybody under 40 in this country


----------



## a_chap (May 7, 2021)




----------



## oryx (May 7, 2021)

JTG said:


> Saw a take today from a Blairite acquaintance (OK, enemy) which amounted to "the woke middle class left are obsessed with food banks and poverty when the real working class own their own homes and have foreign holidays" and I was agog. Just complete failure to understand the material conditions of anybody under 40 in this country


Beggars belief! Do they believe that poverty and food banks are unreal/unimportant?

Also, plenty of over-40s affected by food banks and poverty.


----------



## JTG (May 7, 2021)

oryx said:


> Beggars belief! Do they believe that poverty and food banks are unreal/unimportant?
> 
> Also, plenty of over-40s affected by food banks and poverty.


Sure - my last bit was more about the home ownership and associated things (job security etc). Things are not the same as when this particular person was in his 20s and 30s


----------



## BobDavis (May 8, 2021)

Not been to Hartlepool for yrs but I recall going there in my truck plenty of times. It is a nice enough town with all sorts living there. Plenty of people who would be regarded as working class earn good money. Get the right sort of truck driving job & you can earn £800pw. If Kierf resigns now it would be like he lost a general election which he hasn’t.


----------



## RileyOBlimey (May 8, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Is Jess Phillips in any way important? I think of her as a backbench crank but her name comes up a lot.



Murdoch has promoted her and she’s lickspittle to Israel. This is why she’s promoted by hacks.


----------



## killer b (May 8, 2021)

RileyOBlimey said:


> she’s lickspittle to Israel.


What does this mean?


----------



## butchersapron (May 8, 2021)

Soros man


----------



## Artaxerxes (May 8, 2021)

killer b said:


> What does this mean?



Mystical conspiracy time


----------



## 1927 (May 8, 2021)

Jeff Robinson said:


> what is this



Watching that you'd think that he thought everything was fine before yesterdays result. If he so clear about how to reconnect why hadn't he already done it?


----------



## JTG (May 8, 2021)

Apparently the Beeb asked SKS if he was sure he was happy with that interview and did he want to keep going. He refused.

Imagine them offering Corbyn a second take


----------



## Doodler (May 8, 2021)

Labour needs to embrace unilateral destarmerment.


----------



## glitch hiker (May 8, 2021)




----------



## Cid (May 8, 2021)

JTG said:


> Apparently the Beeb asked SKS if he was sure he was happy with that interview and did he want to keep going. He refused.
> 
> Imagine them offering Corbyn a second take



The interview is about 16:03 bbc1 yesterday. Yes they did, but as I recall it was more in the sense of ‘here’s a spade if you’d like to keep digging, truculent refusal will also do’.


----------



## Dr. Furface (May 8, 2021)

oryx said:


> Beggars belief! Do they believe that poverty and food banks are unreal/unimportant?
> 
> Also, plenty of over-40s affected by food banks and poverty.


You bet they are


----------



## MrSki (May 8, 2021)




----------



## Pickman's model (May 8, 2021)

MrSki said:


>


That's the constable off deep space 9 isn't it?


----------



## The39thStep (May 8, 2021)

Dr. Furface said:


> You bet they are



A great example of how irony works best when there is more than a grain of truth in it


----------



## Jeff Robinson (May 8, 2021)

Dr. Furface said:


> You bet they are




Based on his username alone its impossible that he isn't cancer.


----------



## Kaka Tim (May 8, 2021)

christ - starmer's response to the kicking labour has just received should ring his political death knell. It encapsulates everything as to why he is such a disaster.


----------



## SpookyFrank (May 8, 2021)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Based on his username alone its impossible that he isn't cancer.



If he'd only shoehorned 'common sense' in there somewhere he'd have the royal flush of smug bullshit.


----------



## gosub (May 8, 2021)




----------



## ska invita (May 8, 2021)

Really interesting  where Team Starmer go from here.

All indications are that they're going to move further to the right - that way spells even more clashes with unions and members and of course away from core voters.
The unions seem pissed off to me. Will they act on that?

Will Starmer HQ keep up their awkward beers and flag shtick?
Will they try and patch things up with the left? I cant see it, but it would be interesting to watch (fail).

I still think the issues of Israel will become a live one between Starmer and the membership. Trumps 'recognition' of Jerusalem as the Israeli capital is going to bite more and more in the coming months. (I wonder if Biden might yet back track on that?). I fear the conflict entering a new phase and becoming a live news agenda issue <which is all Starmer cares about of course. The Human Rights Watch finding Israel to be an apartheid state brings the issues around legal definitions of antisemitism etc back in the arena. Starmer has built himself a house of cards on this.

I doubt there will be a snap election. Why would the Tories bother? They've got a massive working majority and seems to me the more time that passes the more I think Labour will fall apart. I just can't see the team around Starmer having it in them to resolve this which means slow decay and deeper entrenchment of resentments.

Starmers whole plan was don't rock the boat then drop policies ahead of an election, but that's years away. A week is a long time in politics never mind years, and there's so much that may yet happen.

The broadly agreed logic amongst global capitalists is to print money and spend it, and I expect Tories will do just enough of that to stay out of electoral trouble - and basically appear to the left of Labour. They've already done that once with the Corporation Tax thing.

Oh, and as well as awkward Conference(s) on the horizon there's quite a few internal court cases against Labour IIRC, not least Corbyn himself. Forde Report too. What a car crash


----------



## teqniq (May 8, 2021)




----------



## brogdale (May 8, 2021)

_triples all round!

_


----------



## flypanam (May 8, 2021)

belboid said:


> Apparently what the country needs isn't a dull middle manager with no ideas of his own.   I'm shocked.


Francois Hollande has thrown his hat in.


----------



## ska invita (May 8, 2021)

Kaka Tim said:


> christ - starmer's response to the kicking labour has just received should ring his political death knell. It encapsulates everything as to why he is such a disaster.


----------



## brogdale (May 8, 2021)

ska invita said:


>


The thing is, Thursday's electoral disaster for Labour was well signposted, so he had plenty of time to fashion some sort of coherent response. Instead he went full-on bizarre vacuous twaddle.


----------



## ska invita (May 8, 2021)

brogdale said:


> The thing is, Thursday's electoral disaster for Labour was well signposted, so he had plenty of time to fashion some sort of coherent response. Instead he went full-on bizarre vacuous twaddle.


Yes, it was expected - but it was much much worse than expected.
As was pointed out the CWU poll that had Labour losing by 7% in Hartlepool infuriated the Starmerites








						Labour cries foul over union poll showing Tories on track to take Hartlepool
					

CWU-commissioned poll ‘cosying up to Conservatives’ in crucial byelection, party figures claim




					www.theguardian.com
				



Yet they ended up losing by 23% was it? Something like that.
Thats a huge difference, and surely must create a profound loss of confidence amongst the Starmer true believers, including Kier himself.


Its weird, im feeling quite happy about these election results. Scottish independence is looking on track and Starmer has taken a bloodier beating than expected. Thats as good a result as can be expected within the limits of this democratic system.


----------



## splonkydoo (May 8, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> That's the constable off deep space 9 isn't it?



At least Odo was a decent shape-shifter.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (May 8, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Instead he went full-on bizarre vacuous twaddle.



playing to his strengths...


----------



## MrSki (May 8, 2021)

ska invita said:


>


----------



## Wilf (May 8, 2021)

ska invita said:


>


That interview was a forensic examination of a vacuum.


----------



## BobDavis (May 8, 2021)

If Labour move to the right then they will meet the Tories going the other way. At least they will if the Tories intend to keep their promises.


----------



## Wilf (May 8, 2021)

Burnham's just about to win the Manchester mayor thing, with an increased majority. I don't see any significant moves against starmer, but if there were, there really is nobody other than him or Khan.  But things are so bad for Labour at the moment that the job of finding a winnable by election for either of them is far from easy.  They might end up stuck with starmer for purely mechanical reasons.

Labour's got the full on death rattle going on at the moment, but the first past the post system won't let them die off.  Of course we were having similar discussions circa 1983... Oh, hang on, that party _did _die off.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (May 8, 2021)

BobDavis said:


> if the Tories intend to keep their promises.



😆


----------



## JTG (May 8, 2021)

Wilf said:


> Burnham's just about to win the Manchester mayor thing, with an increased majority.


76% of the vote


----------



## Wilf (May 8, 2021)

JTG said:


> 76% of the vote


... cue opinion polls this weekend asking Hartlepool voters if they'd have voted for Labour with Burnham as leader.


----------



## BobDavis (May 8, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> 😆


If the Tories fail to deliver on their promises then all good for Labour. I wonder how many Tory MPs are quietly worried that Johnson’s rash promises to level up can only be delivered by socialism ?


----------



## The39thStep (May 8, 2021)

JTG said:


> 76% of the vote


67%


----------



## JTG (May 8, 2021)

Wilf said:


> ... cue opinion polls this weekend asking Hartlepool voters if they'd have voted for Labour with Burnham as leader.


Don't be daft, votes from the woke metropolitan elite don't count and are actually negative for Labour


----------



## JTG (May 8, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> 67%


Oh. Easily done I guess


----------



## Orang Utan (May 8, 2021)

ska invita said:


>


 at ‘current’


----------



## oryx (May 8, 2021)

Good article in Tribune, I thought:









						Labour’s Election Disaster Is Keir Starmer’s to Own
					

Keir Starmer has attempted to blame today's election disaster on Jeremy Corbyn – but his leadership has hollowed out the party, refused to offer a vision for change and left many with little reason to vote Labour.




					tribunemag.co.uk
				




Best if you ignore the picture at the top   and read to the end where it talks about Labour's success in Manchester and Salford. Thought the bit about Salford was especially interesting.


----------



## Mr Moose (May 8, 2021)

BobDavis said:


> If the Tories fail to deliver on their promises then all good for Labour. I wonder how many Tory MPs are quietly worried that Johnson’s rash promises to level up can only be delivered by socialism ?



I hope they do deliver as it carries on making the case for intervention. They can then be taken down on their sleaze.

But there will also be plenty they don’t do and what they do will be done unfairly, punishing non-Tory voters. And they certainly won’t reverse the marketisation of everything so there will be that individual disadvantage to address, those excluded by the narrowing of housing and other opportunities.


----------



## two sheds (May 8, 2021)

BobDavis said:


> If the Tories fail to deliver on their promises then all good for Labour. I wonder how many Tory MPs are quietly worried that Johnson’s rash promises to level up can only be delivered by socialism ?


Like those 40 new hospitals they've built? It makes no fucking difference when Johnson lies or they don't deliver on their promises, media just ignore it.


----------



## Funky_monks (May 8, 2021)

ska invita said:


>


Please tell me that's a spoof?


----------



## two sheds (May 8, 2021)

ska invita said:


>


Apart from the sadness in his eyes he is increasingly looking like (sorry, have posted it before)


----------



## Funky_monks (May 8, 2021)

oryx said:


> Good article in Tribune, I thought:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think I posted about Salford on the local elections thread - It's where I'm from originally. Seems that the mayor, Paul Dennet - whilst controversial is a strong Socialist. Central Govt will not allow more council houses to be built and Salford, being Salford they decided not to do what they were told, and the council set up a company which....er....builds council houses (analysis by my mum via whatsapp yesterday.... ). Manchester - Andy Burnham popular, openly calls himself a socialist, sticks two fingers up at BoJo during the pandemic - romps home. Liverpool, South Wales, all places with socialist candidates, all did well. I wonder if the party will pick upon this "socialism is popular" trend?


----------



## Serge Forward (May 8, 2021)

JTG said:


> Don't be daft, votes from the woke metropolitan elite don't count and are actually negative for Labour


Must tell my 90 year old mam in Salford that she's now woke metropolitan elite


----------



## JTG (May 8, 2021)

Funky_monks said:


> I think I posted about Salford on the local elections thread - It's where I'm from originally. Seems that the mayor, Paul Dennet - whilst controversial is a strong Socialist. Central Govt will not allow more council houses to be built and Salford, being Salford they decided not to do what they were told, and the council set up a company which....er....builds council houses (analysis by my mum via whatsapp yesterday.... ). Manchester - Andy Burnham popular, openly calls himself a socialist, sticks two fingers up at BoJo during the pandemic - romps home. Liverpool, South Wales, all places with socialist candidates, all did well. I wonder if the party will pick upon this "socialism is popular" trend?


Burnham and Rotheram both intending to take the buses into public ownership as well


----------



## JTG (May 8, 2021)

Serge Forward said:


> Must tell my 90 year old mam in Salford that she's now woke metropolitan elite


Knowsley, Salford, Preston - all metropolitan elite now I'm afraid


----------



## Rimbaud (May 8, 2021)

JTG said:


> Knowsley, Salford, Preston - all metropolitan elite now I'm afraid



The "woke metropolitan elite" is just blatant projection from the Labour right isn't it?

Combined with their own snobbery that all beyond the M25 are knuckle dragging troglodytes who love flags, pints, and racism.


----------



## killer b (May 8, 2021)

JTG said:


> Knowsley, Salford, Preston - all metropolitan elite now I'm afraid


I don't know Knowsley so well, but I know Preston and Salford and they both have 'metropolitan' stuff going on - large universities, thriving liberal arts scenes, hipster coffee joints and the like. Salford has the BBC based there, Preston is the administrative capital of Lancashire... 

Which isn't to say that there aren't things to be learned from the local Labour Council actions, but it also isn't as simple as saying 'these guys do socialism and that's what's stopped them falling to the tories' - there's a lot of other structural differences too.


----------



## JTG (May 8, 2021)

Rimbaud said:


> The "woke metropolitan elite" is just blatant projection from the Labour right isn't it?
> 
> Combined with their own snobbery that all beyond the M25 are knuckle dragging troglodytes who love flags, pints, and racism.


Yes, because it's the law for the Labour Party to hate their own voters.

It's also a Tory/hard right attack line. Basically anybody who lives in a city and gives due consideration to the needs of other people can be a part of it


----------



## Funky_monks (May 8, 2021)

Serge Forward said:


> Must tell my 90 year old mam in Salford that she's now woke metropolitan elite



Mam and dad are woke as fuck, they like all the Liberal metropolitan things: Rugby league, meat pies, 60s beat combos.....


----------



## JTG (May 8, 2021)

Funky_monks said:


> Mam and dad are woke as fuck, they like all the Liberal metropolitan things: Rugby league, meat pies, 60s beat combos.....


Clearly they're super-ironic hipsters


----------



## Smokeandsteam (May 8, 2021)

One of the few genuine working class voices in the PLP..



Starmer is not only absolutely out of his depth politically but he’s also a shithouse. So much for ‘taking full responsibility’


----------



## JTG (May 8, 2021)

It seems that Keith is taking full responsibility by sacking Rayner as party chair


----------



## redsquirrel (May 8, 2021)

Ignoring the wider significance it is another terrible move (if it is the case) in internal party political terms - simply adding to his enemies within the party.

Starmer really is terrible politician (in the narrow politicking sense), the failures over Brexit. The total removal of any of the left within the shadow cabinet making him more vulnerable to attacks from the right of the party.


----------



## JTG (May 8, 2021)

The left will be telling Rayner that this is what happens if you play with snakes


----------



## Steel Icarus (May 8, 2021)

JTG said:


> It seems that Keith is taking full responsibility by sacking Rayner as party chair


----------



## JTG (May 8, 2021)

I'm agog at this man's political instincts


----------



## Smokeandsteam (May 8, 2021)

redsquirrel said:


> Starmer really is terrible politician (in the narrow politicking



Utterly abysmal. This is just absolutely shit politics. I’ll reconnect us to the northern working class by sacking the only northern working class woman in the shadow cabinet. He’s clueless, so bad it’s breathtaking.


----------



## magneze (May 8, 2021)

I blame the parents. Naming him Kier, thinks he's born to do the job, probably even more than Johnson. But is of course shit at it.


----------



## Serge Forward (May 8, 2021)

Funky_monks said:


> Mam and dad are woke as fuck, they like all the Liberal metropolitan things: Rugby league, meat pies, 60s beat combos.....


You missed out pigeon fancying. 

Mind you, they used to knock about with Shelagh Delaney back in the day, and that's proper woke Top Trumps for Old Mother Forward


----------



## JTG (May 8, 2021)

magneze said:


> I blame the parents. Naming him Kier, thinks he's born to do the job, probably even more than Johnson. But is of course shit at it.


wtf man, it's Kieth


----------



## Mr Moose (May 8, 2021)

JTG said:


> Yes, because it's the law for the Labour Party to hate their own voters.
> 
> It's also a Tory/hard right attack line. Basically anybody who lives in a city and gives due consideration to the needs of other people can be a part of it



It’s also a bit of a slur suggesting that Northern areas are homogeneously whippet owning Andy Capp types who couldn’t possibly be interested in anti-racism or social justice or that young people in those areas who are interested in those things are not the working class.

If Labour actually does stuff for people, has ambitions for them and their areas, doesn’t offer more austerity, then the problems of any cultural differences reduce.


----------



## kebabking (May 8, 2021)

Panicky, stupid, self-defeating, hubristic stuff...

I'm not a huge fan of Rayner, but firstly it would appear that she wasn't central to the campaign while Starmers people were, and secondly - perhaps more importantly - it tells people in the LP that it doesn't matter how loyal you are, that Starmer will throw you under a bus to detract from his/his friends failures.

It also suggests that his look/analyse/learn/action cycle takes about 8 minutes, which says little for its rigour and effectiveness...


----------



## Sprocket. (May 8, 2021)

So much for being reflective, instant reactive knee jerking from someone who doesn’t have a clue.
Any plans to reconnect with previous supporters will take years, it cannot be repaired by ridiculous displays in a weekend.


----------



## kebabking (May 8, 2021)

I reckon he'll be gone by Sept 23, and I doubt labour will be seriously challenging for government before 2030.

Out in the wilderness against a real heavyweight like Thatcher I can understand, but against Cameron and Johnson? Fucking hell....


----------



## SpookyFrank (May 8, 2021)

JTG said:


> The left will be telling Rayner that this is what happens if you play with snakes



And they'll not be wrong.


----------



## oryx (May 8, 2021)

I'm genuinely quite shocked at Rayner's sacking. 

Bad, bad look. 

I don't dislike her at all though not her biggest fan, but as others have said it does look like a woman who's a genuinely working class voice being made to carry the can for Starmer's lack of popularity.


----------



## AnnO'Neemus (May 8, 2021)

JTG said:


> I'm agog at this man's *lack of* political instincts


There. Fixed that for you.


----------



## brogdale (May 8, 2021)

Has he appointed Paul Williams as the national Campaign Co-ordinator yet?


----------



## Petcha (May 8, 2021)

If she was the one in charge of coordinating this campaign then surely she was in the firing line. Losing to Boris so badly, when he should have been on his knees electorally, defies belief.

The timing's a bit bizarre so I assume that there was a pretty 'honest' exchange of words which led to Starmer pressing the nuclear button. He's usually a very calm, collected guy like most top lawyers. Some bad shit must have gone down behind the scenes there.


----------



## JTG (May 8, 2021)

Petcha said:


> If she was the one in charge of coordinating this campaign then surely she was in the firing line. Losing to Boris so badly, when he should have been on his knees electorally, defies belief.
> 
> The timing's a bit bizarre so I assume that there was a pretty 'honest' exchange of words which led to Starmer pressing the nuclear button. He's usually a very calm, collected guy like most top lawyers. Some bad shit must have gone down behind the scenes there.


Thanks for the insight Sir Keith


----------



## Kaka Tim (May 8, 2021)

Fucking wow. Sacking raynor!  has starmer lost his mind? In the past 24hours he's gone from ineffective shite to some whole new dimension of appallingly, incompetently, dementedly shite. 
Regardless of their ideological position, Surely anyone with a modicum of political acumen within Labour has got to see that he's a disaster.
Chaotic. Divisive. Inept. 
Gtfo kieth.


----------



## JTG (May 8, 2021)

Kaka Tim said:


> Fucking wow. Sacking raynor!  has starmer lost his mind? In the past 24hours he's gone from ineffective shite to some whole new dimension of appallingly, incompetently, dementedly shite.
> Regardless of their ideological position, Surely anyone with a modicum of political acumen within Labour has got to see that he's a disaster.
> Chaotic. Divisive. Inept.
> Gtfo kieth.


Wonder if there's anybody in the PLP with a recent history of being elected by the members who may now find it extremely easy to collect enough nominations to mount a challenge whenever she feels like it


----------



## brogdale (May 8, 2021)

Not a fan, but good, succinct tweet...


----------



## Smokeandsteam (May 8, 2021)

Anyone who regularly reads NS articles will recognise how, by their usual polite centrist standards, utterly dismissive and scathing this is from Stephen Bush re: Kieth. Among the highlights...,not a serious figure’, ‘lacking in political judgement’, ‘a fucking joke’....









						Keir Starmer’s sacking of Angela Rayner is self-destructive, stupid and wrong
					

The Labour leader’s decision has raised questions about his position – and more importantly about his judgement.




					www.newstatesman.com


----------



## JTG (May 8, 2021)

rumours now flying that Lisa Nandy will soon be sleeping with the fishes also


----------



## Idris2002 (May 8, 2021)

A good time to place bets on a Rayner-Nandy challenge to Keef?


----------



## yield (May 8, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Anyone who regularly reads NS articles will recognise how, by their usual polite centrist standards, utterly dismissive and scathing this is from Stephen Bush re: Kieth. Among the highlights...,not a serious figure’, ‘lacking in political judgement’, ‘a fucking joke’....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


"We had to destroy the village in order to save it."


JTG said:


> rumours now flying that Lisa Nandy will soon be sleeping with the fishes also


Shame that she was more like her Liberal grandfather Frank Byers than her dad.


----------



## JTG (May 8, 2021)

Twitter gossip has it that this has pissed off everybody in the PLP and Labour friends of various persuasions are spitting tacks over it. Fucking incredible cack handedness

Even better I've seen suggestions that Steve Reed or Wes Streeting would be in line to replace her which is just... omg


----------



## ska invita (May 8, 2021)

kebabking said:


> I reckon he'll be gone by Sept 23, and I doubt labour will be seriously challenging for government before 2030.
> 
> Out in the wilderness against a real heavyweight like Thatcher I can understand, but against Cameron and Johnson? Fucking hell....


Why SEP 23?


brogdale said:


> Has he appointed Paul Williams as the national Campaign Co-ordinator yet?


I "liked" his post defeat tweet "im off to do something important, namely pick the kids up from school".
No skin in the game, clearly


----------



## Mr Moose (May 8, 2021)

Because what Labour really needs is a new campaign coordinator the Saturday after an election. Dismal look about this.


----------



## JTG (May 8, 2021)

Brilliantly timed to overshadow any further results, such as retaining the London & Bristol mayoralties (probably)


----------



## kebabking (May 8, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Why SEP 23?...



Coz labour are inherently shit at shooting a lame horse, he's deranged/tin-eared enough to keep going for another two years, but eventually they'll get desperate/offended enough. 

Gives the next leader a year and two party conferences to bed in.


----------



## ska invita (May 8, 2021)

kebabking said:


> Coz labour are inherently shit at shooting a lame horse, he's deranged/tin-eared enough to keep going for another two years, but eventually they'll get desperate/offended enough.
> 
> Gives the next leader a year and two party conferences to bed in.


Ah 2023, I thought you meant 23rd Sept


----------



## JTG (May 8, 2021)

Haha, get em Laura!


----------



## bellaozzydog (May 8, 2021)

Petcha said:


> The timing's a bit bizarre so I assume that there was a pretty 'honest' exchange of words which led to Starmer pressing the nuclear button. *He's usually a very calm, collected guy like most top lawyers.* Some bad shit must have gone down behind the scenes there.



Did you type that with a straight face  🤣


----------



## Kaka Tim (May 8, 2021)

I think he will have to go. Sacking raynor is suicidally inept. The beyond satire empty drivel he came out with today was already compounding the disaster - this is pulling out a handgrenade, putting it in your mouth and throwing the pin. Who the fuck is advising him? Is it Dominic cummings in disguise? 
To think the labour right tore into corbyn for being incompetent, cack handed and gaffe prone - well look at your man now. 
Im guessing the membership (whats left of it) the unions and a big chunk of the PLP will be aghast at what has just unfolded. Hes destroying the party. 
Im also guessing we will now have a desperate smear campaign launched agasint a popular leading working class female labour mp - who is still deputy leader - just to further inflame the situation.


----------



## JTG (May 8, 2021)

Are Hitler in the bunker videos old hat or can we expect one soon?


----------



## splonkydoo (May 8, 2021)

I'm very curious if this is a kneejerk solo-run by Starmer, or else was seen as an option   to get one of the Labour right crew in? Incredibly shit politics either way.


----------



## JTG (May 8, 2021)

In a blow for shitpost left twitter, Wes Streeting has suddenly deleted loads of his old tweets about McDonalds that have been used to rip the piss out of him for ages.

He's absolutely planning a tilt at it


----------



## ska invita (May 8, 2021)

JTG said:


> He's absolutely planning a tilt at it


At a leadership challenge you think?


----------



## JTG (May 8, 2021)

ska invita said:


> At a leadership challenge you think?


Fuck knows tbh I'm just enjoying imagining the chaos of outright mediocrities like Streeting or Philips winning senior positions as the ship sinks beneath the waves


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 8, 2021)

Been chatting with a friend and this came up, and again I'm left wondering just what the thinking and logic is even from the point of view of those making the decision. Obviously you can disagree with someone's decision but understand, from their POV, why they made it.

But this... how is _this _the option they arrive at?


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 8, 2021)

JTG said:


> Twitter gossip has it that this has pissed off everybody in the PLP and Labour friends of various persuasions are spitting tacks over it. Fucking incredible cack handedness


So... he's united the Labour party? Watchmen style?


----------



## JTG (May 8, 2021)

Lord Camomile said:


> So... he's united the Labour party? Watchmen style?


All except for Jess Philips who is smiling to herself at home and crossing names off a list


----------



## kebabking (May 8, 2021)

Kaka Tim said:


> I think he will have to go. Sacking raynor is suicidally inept. The beyond satire empty drivel he came out with today was already compounding the disaster - this is pulling out a handgrenade, putting it in your mouth and throwing the pin. Who the fuck is advising him? Is it Dominic cummings in disguise?
> To think the labour right tore into corbyn for being incompetent, cack handed and gaffe prone - well look at your man now.
> Im guessing the membership (whats left of it) the unions and a big chunk of the PLP will be aghast at what has just unfolded. Hes destroying the party.
> Im also guessing we will now have a desperate smear campaign launched agasint a popular leading working class female labour mp - who is still deputy leader - just to further inflame the situation.



Already started - 'friends of Keith' have been desperately trying to get the Times to go to town on some train tickets she used during the campaign.

This is an almost admirable level of fuck-wittery. Comedic stuff...


----------



## Jeff Robinson (May 8, 2021)




----------



## JTG (May 8, 2021)

kebabking said:


> Already started - 'friends of Keith' have been desperately trying to get the Times to go to town on some train tickets she used during the campaign.
> 
> This is an almost admirable level of fuck-wittery. Comedic stuff...


Friends of Keith also fear he may be spiralling out of control and lashing out at his closest friends. An intervention may be in order


----------



## Puddy_Tat (May 8, 2021)

i think he's a wight rancour...


----------



## Wilf (May 8, 2021)

Fucking hell, Burnham's gone from boom to boost in a couple of hours. Tea time, he was making noises about 'if the party want him' in the future, which might have added up to him coming in at the next winnable by election. As of tonight, there could be _another _labour leader in power within a few weeks, before he gets chance to get back to westminster.   The irony is, if kieth is forced out - I still don't think that's likely, tbh - Rayner would take over in the short term.


----------



## agricola (May 8, 2021)

kebabking said:


> Already started - 'friends of Keith' have been desperately trying to get the Times to go to town on some train tickets she used during the campaign.
> 
> This is an almost admirable level of fuck-wittery. Comedic stuff...



changing at Warrington Bank Quay rather than Crewe, apparently


----------



## Wilf (May 8, 2021)

I genuinely can't even see a scintilla of logic in this sacking, other than trying to blame someone not called kieth.  Can anybody even guess what it is he is trying to signal and to who???


----------



## lazythursday (May 8, 2021)

Wilf said:


> I genuinely can't even see a scintilla of logic in this sacking, other than trying to blame someone not called kieth.  Can anybody even guess what it is he is trying to signal and to who???


There's the old saying 'never let a good crisis go to waste' - using the opportunity to do what he wanted to do all along, demote Rayner and Nandy etc - but misjudged the reaction. But unless all these angry MPs actually do something about it within the week he will get his way and the right will steer the party further into the mire.


----------



## kebabking (May 8, 2021)

Wilf said:


> I genuinely can't even see a scintilla of logic in this sacking, other than trying to blame someone not called kieth.  Can anybody even guess what it is he is trying to signal and to who???



It _could _be that he really doesn't rate her - I don't - and thought that today's tidal wave of shit was a good opportunity to throw out the trash. A burying bad news type thing.

Understandable perhaps, but if he thought this would just quietly slip out without the CLP/LP noticing then he's just fucking spectacular...


----------



## Kaka Tim (May 8, 2021)

but she was potential leadership candidate last time  - and could well have won. Shes popular. Shes a working class women (teenage mum who with alcoholic mother who left school with no exams) who talks like an actual real person and with a sharp wit. Surely exactly what labour need if they want to "reconnect" with the trad labour voters - and take on someone like johnson.  I wonder if this may have actually played a part in his thinking "she makes me look bad in comparison .." a bit like when blair knifed mo mowlan ..
I wonder what would happen if she resigned as deputy in order to challenge for the leadership.


----------



## brogdale (May 8, 2021)




----------



## Sprocket. (May 8, 2021)

Sadly, as many times before with the Labour Party, the grass has come away from the roots.


----------



## Knotted (May 8, 2021)

Biggest black mark against Rayner is her association with Starmer's leadership IMO. Well that's fixed now.


----------



## hitmouse (May 8, 2021)

killer b said:


> I don't know Knowsley so well, but I know Preston and Salford and they both have 'metropolitan' stuff going on - large universities, thriving liberal arts scenes, hipster coffee joints and the like. Salford has the BBC based there, Preston is the administrative capital of Lancashire...


Would be very interested to see a proper analysis of the "Salford socialism" model, I find myself suspecting that Dennettism isn't all it's cracked up to be but can't claim to be a big expert on the subject beyond reading various Salford Star articles, and following the long-running Grenfell-style cladding thing a bit.


Wilf said:


> I genuinely can't even see a scintilla of logic in this sacking, other than trying to blame someone not called kieth.  Can anybody even guess what it is he is trying to signal and to who???


Doesn't Rayner share a flat with Long-Bailey? Clearly a Corbynite snake-in-the-grass fifth columnist sabotaging our hero's efforts to win back Hartlepool with her Stalino-Trotskyite ways. Probably has her orders beamed straight in from an Islington allotment.


----------



## Raheem (May 8, 2021)

Deputy heads will roll.


----------



## Raheem (May 8, 2021)

I thought the deputy couldn't be sacked, since they were elected. That seemed to be the case with Watson.


----------



## SpookyFrank (May 8, 2021)

Raheem said:


> I thought the deputy couldn't be sacked, since they were elected. That seemed to be the case with Watson.



Rayner has been sacked as party chairman but remains deputy leader.


----------



## Raheem (May 8, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Rayner has been sacked as party chairman but remains deputy leader.


Sounds like a good idea...


----------



## brogdale (May 8, 2021)

Lol if true


----------



## SpookyFrank (May 8, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Sounds like a good idea...



Yeah it's gonna be a fun day at the office on monday.


----------



## oryx (May 8, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Lol if true



Don't know anything about Sarah Jones, but it's a big thumbs down from me for the rest of the rumoured promotions.


----------



## Sprocket. (May 8, 2021)

Perhaps someone should have a word with kieth and suggest he puts the shovel down and stops digging.


----------



## brogdale (May 8, 2021)

oryx said:


> Don't know anything about Sarah Jones, but it's a big thumbs down from me for the rest of the rumoured promotions.


Mate of mine campaigned for Jones in Croydon Central in December 19 and when I next saw him said he’d been on a board with Starmer who had popped along to support Jones’ re-election.

On friendly terms that far back.


----------



## Smangus (May 8, 2021)

I really think this thread should be renamed.

"What stupid shit has Keef done today?"

Would seem a fitting title.


----------



## Shechemite (May 8, 2021)

I met Sarah Jones in 2018. She seemed alright. For all Reed’s faults (I’m sure he has many) he did push through the Mental Health Units (Use of Force) Bill (aka ‘Seni’s Law’).


----------



## The39thStep (May 8, 2021)




----------



## Mr Moose (May 8, 2021)

Wilf said:


> I genuinely can't even see a scintilla of logic in this sacking, other than trying to blame someone not called kieth.  Can anybody even guess what it is he is trying to signal and to who???



I’m afraid it all seems rather staged. Streeting tonight at pains to point out that today’s results change nothing. Highly disrespectful to those who worked for Labour’s local gains.

It also suggests that the decision had been made and the promise that lessons would be learned carefully was simply untrue.

However it’s one thing to rout opponents with the wind behind you like New Labour did, but this clique has none of that. This is going to be a bloody farce. I wish they would fuck off and form another shit centre party.


----------



## two sheds (May 8, 2021)

I can't see him going unless pushed - if he does he'll be seen as a total failure and I'm sure he feels his magnetic personality and drive can turn it all around.


----------



## brogdale (May 8, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> View attachment 267406


Best response I saw was:

_Turns out it was the Charlatans _


----------



## Gramsci (May 8, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Lol if true




Steve Reed. He was the leader of Lambeth Council who brought Blairism to my patch. Corbyn gave him post. He has been on radio few days back saying the Labour Party is not aspirational enough.

He tried to become MP in Streatham. Membership weren't having an arch Blairite as candidate and went for Chuka. Who at that time presented himself as Compass supporting soft left.

Steve Reed Big idea in Lambeth was the Coop Council. The post war welfare state had led to culture of dependency. The local government had to change from being a provider to being an enabler.  In effect this was little different from Cameron big society. Steve Reed always denied it was about cutting services. He said it was about the Labour Party going back to its roots of self help and not relying on "welfare".

To add I think his view of this is quite right wing.


----------



## The39thStep (May 8, 2021)

In happier days


----------



## SpookyFrank (May 8, 2021)

Even if I was a fanatical blairite I'd be able to see that Starmer is useless. And he's got plenty of shit on him that could easily be dug up if he gets anywhere near a GE campaign. And just think, what we're seeing now is how well he does when he's getting an _easy_ ride from the press and the tories.


----------



## Idris2002 (May 8, 2021)

I know we're all keenly looking forward to Starmer having a bucket of holy water thrown over him, so that he meets his demise shouting "_melting., I'm meeeelllllltttttingggg" _but I've just seen a tweet (which it would be tiresome to post) saying that this is the beginning of a full-on right-wing coup in the party, through which the last vestiges of Corbynism will be eradicated. . . .


----------



## Idris2002 (May 8, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Even if I was a fanatical blairite I'd be able to see that Starmer is useless. And he's got plenty of shit on him that could easily be dug up if he gets anywhere near a GE campaign. And just think, what we're seeing now is how well he does when he's getting any _easy_ ride from the press and the tories.


It says a lot about Blairism that it couldn't produce a successor generation for its project, at least not one that wasn't utterly useless in every respect.


----------



## Idris2002 (May 8, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Best response I saw was:
> 
> _Turns out it was the Charlatans _


Has anyone ever been suede politically by this sort of thing?


----------



## Raheem (May 8, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> View attachment 267406


"Well, do you remember Sack?"


----------



## Gramsci (May 8, 2021)

Some of these old Blairites are ruthless.

Steve Reed forced out popular Lambeth Cllr. Who was on the left.

The Right of the Labour Party are vicious. 









						Exclusive: Ex-Lambeth Cllr Kingsley Abrams resigns from Labour party to carry on fighting cuts
					

Kingsley Abrams has tendered his resignation from the Labour party. The former Lambeth Councillor made his decision after his extensive Labour party experience was over-looked



					www.brixtonbuzz.com


----------



## SpookyFrank (May 8, 2021)

Idris2002 said:


> It says a lot about Blairism that it couldn't produce a successor generation for its project, at least not one that wasn't utterly useless in every respect.



Not really surprising that a managerialist ideology produced only middle managers. 

Credit where it's due though, those middle managers are both legion and impossible to get rid of. Political cockroaches, basically. Only without the politics.


----------



## Plumdaff (May 8, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> Steve Reed. He was the leader of Lambeth Council who brought Blairism to my patch. Corbyn gave him post. He has been on radio few days back saying the Labour Party is not aspirational enough.
> 
> He tried to become MP in Streatham. Membership weren't having an arch Blairite as candidate and went for Chuka. Who at that time presented himself as Compass supporting soft left.
> 
> ...


I remember going to the Atlantic Bar and Grill after the protests against Lambeth's first austerity budget and witnessing Reed and other councillors doing a fucking conga (I swear) celebrating having got it passed. Man's a total technocrat wanker.


----------



## SpookyFrank (May 8, 2021)

Idris2002 said:


> Has anyone ever been suede politically by this sort of thing?



Suede were from Essex or something.


----------



## Idris2002 (May 8, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Suede were from Essex or something.


What about Supergrass?


----------



## SpookyFrank (May 8, 2021)

Idris2002 said:


> What about Supergrass?



Oxford.

There must be a New Order pun to be had.

Or something about a Happy Monday at Labour HQ.


----------



## Steel Icarus (May 8, 2021)

Idris2002 said:


> Has anyone ever been suede politically by this sort of thing?


Could have at least waited until Conference in Brighton to sack Rayner - that would have turned it into an Ocean Cull Her Scene


----------



## Idris2002 (May 8, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Oxford.
> 
> There must be a New Order pun to be had.
> 
> Or something about a Happy Monday at Labour HQ.


Something something Starmer something buys The Farm.


----------



## Kaka Tim (May 8, 2021)

Idris2002 said:


> I know we're all keenly looking forward to Starmer having a bucket of holy water thrown over him, so that he meets his demise shouting "_melting., I'm meeeelllllltttttingggg" _but I've just seen a tweet (which it would be tiresome to post) saying that this is the beginning of a full-on right-wing coup in the party, through which the last vestiges of Corbynism will be eradicated. . . .



but how much support will this get from the membership, the unions and the plp? - as someone said above, easier to knife your enemies if you are in a position of strength - but starmer is weak and flailing around - and you'd have to be pretty delusional that labours disastrous performance were somehow due to corbyn (especially when you look at where labour did ok) - and not a failing of the party leader. and sacking raynor is a hugely inflammatory move and further complicated by the fact she is still deputy leader. Politically its utterly incoherent.  Either the old bairites (isnt Mandelson back in the building, sliming around?) have totally lost touch with reality (not impossible) or Starmer had a barney with Raynor and lost his shit.


----------



## MrSki (May 8, 2021)

I think her sacking relates to being Campaign co-ordinator which regardless of the leadership she did a pretty shite job. SKS has been a bit hasty over this & maybe has not considered alienating his deputy within a day of the poor showing which according to C4 polls was because of his leadership. 

Still time will tell & all that.


----------



## Idris2002 (May 8, 2021)

S☼I said:


> Could have at least waited until Conference in Brighton to sack Rayner - that would have turned it into an Ocean Cull Her Scene


Bernie Sanders approves.


----------



## SpookyFrank (May 8, 2021)

Idris2002 said:


> Something something Starmer something buys The Farm.



Farmer Starmer Farmer Starmer, Starmer can really farm.


----------



## Idris2002 (May 8, 2021)

Kaka Tim said:


> but how much support will this get from the membership, the unions and the plp? - as someone said above, easier to knife your enemies if you are in a position of strength - but starmer is weak and flailing around - and you'd have to be pretty delusional that labours disastrous performance were somehow due to corbyn (especially when you look at where labour did ok) - and not a failing of the party leader. and sacking raynor is a hugely inflammatory move and further complicated by the fact she is still deputy leader. Politically its utterly incoherent.  Either the old bairites (isnt Mandelson back in the building, sliming around?) have totally lost touch with reality (not impossible) or Starmer had a barney with Raynor and lost his shit.


Ever seen a muppet flail it's felt-covered limbs about?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 8, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> View attachment 267386
> 
> i think he's a wight rancour...


Yeh I love their choice of pic


----------



## Plumdaff (May 8, 2021)

Twitter seems to be convinced Starmer's.... _close_ _working relationship _with Jenny Chapman and Rayner's criticism of her may be behind all of this, off the back of a deleted Tim Shipman (political editor of The Times) tweet. No idea if this is true or not but adds to general chaos.


----------



## Idris2002 (May 8, 2021)

Plumdaff said:


> Twitter seems to be convinced Starmer's.... _close_ _working relationship _with Jenny Chapman and Raynor's criticism of her may be behind all of this, off the back of a deleted Tim Shipman (political editor of The Times) tweet. No idea if this is true or not but adds to general chaos.



And Mrs. Starmer has apparently banned Ms. Chapman from the Starmer family home. . .


----------



## elbows (May 9, 2021)




----------



## elbows (May 9, 2021)

Maybe Starmer got confused about getting behind the flag, and got behind a red flag to a bull.


----------



## RileyOBlimey (May 9, 2021)

killer b said:


> What does this mean?



She’s a particularly mendacious member of Labour Friends of Israel. She has undermined the genuine fight against bigotry by labelling the phrase “Palestine Lives” as antisemitic.


----------



## RileyOBlimey (May 9, 2021)

butchersapron said:


> Soros man



This is repeating far-right propaganda and conspiracy theories, it’s lazy and promoting hate.

Conflating valid criticisms of the crimes committed by the state of Israel with fascist bullshit pedalled on the Internet is an insult to the people who suffered in the Holocaust. It also provides a base for future atrocities.


----------



## Leighsw2 (May 9, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> Steve Reed. He was the leader of Lambeth Council who brought Blairism to my patch. Corbyn gave him post. He has been on radio few days back saying the Labour Party is not aspirational enough.
> 
> He tried to become MP in Streatham. Membership weren't having an arch Blairite as candidate and went for Chuka. Who at that time presented himself as Compass supporting soft left.
> 
> ...


Originally it was going to be the 'John Lewis' council, but I think they went for 'cooperative' in the end as a bit more 'labour'. Have to say I don't think anyone ever understood what it actually meant!


----------



## redsquirrel (May 9, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Anyone who regularly reads NS articles will recognise how, by their usual polite centrist standards, utterly dismissive and scathing this is from Stephen Bush re: Kieth. Among the highlights...,not a serious figure’, ‘lacking in political judgement’, ‘a fucking joke’....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Any chance you could c&p this Smokeandsteam , NS paywall keeps kicking me out.


----------



## RileyOBlimey (May 9, 2021)

redsquirrel said:


> Any chance you could c&p this Smokeandsteam , NS paywall keeps kicking me out.





> What is there to be said about Keir Starmer’s mystifyingly stupid, self-discrediting and self-destructive decision to sack Angela Rayner as Labour Party chair? Other than the obvious, which is that unless it emerges in relatively short order that Rayner has been quietly defrauding Labour Party funds or running an illicit drug ring, it is mystifyingly stupid, self-discrediting and self-destructive. (Though I suppose given that, we cannot rule out the possibility that someone close to the Labour leader is running an illicit drug ring.)
> 
> Bluntly, there is no intelligent analysis of the local elections that would pin the blame on Labour’s deputy leader. These are elections in which the incumbent governments in England, Scotland and Wales have all seen major gains: a picture that defies the idea that what we are seeing is either about a deep-rooted and enduring realignment of the so-called “Red Wall” behind the Conservative Party or that it is a particularly commentary on anything within the gift of Labour.
> 
> ...


----------



## redsquirrel (May 9, 2021)

Thanks


----------



## ska invita (May 9, 2021)

ska invita said:


> "Family has always been incredibly important to me..........and it means everything to me now that I have a loving family of my own."
> If the rumour I've heard about Starmer from a (trustworthy - but i guess rumour spreading) person who is a regular member at Starmer's CLP, the "family man" angle might be one that comes back to bite him a la John Major and his Back to Basics family shtick.


----------



## JTG (May 9, 2021)

MrSki said:


> I think her sacking relates to being Campaign co-ordinator which regardless of the leadership she did a pretty shite job. SKS has been a bit hasty over this & maybe has not considered alienating his deputy within a day of the poor showing which according to C4 polls was because of his leadership.
> 
> Still time will tell & all that.


Yeah, I mean the Liverpool mayoral selection was dreadful for a start and was reflected in the result. Not sure how much influence Rayner had in that but just one example


----------



## woweed (May 9, 2021)

JTG said:


> Yeah, I mean the Liverpool mayoral selection was dreadful for a start and was reflected in the result. Not sure how much influence Rayner had in that but just one example



hehehe, tell me more.


----------



## JTG (May 9, 2021)

woweed said:


> hehehe, tell me more.


Three candidates about to go forward to the local members for selection suddenly told that nominations were reopening and they weren't eligible to stand. No reasons given. Two new people shortlisted, one a very young councillor with little experience and the other a bankrupt. Bankrupt wins. Election sees Labour candidate win less than 50% (39% iirc) of the vote for the first time ever in a Liverpool mayoral election and squeeze past a well known indy candidate in the run off.

For comparison, Steve Rotheram won over 60% of the vote in Liverpool for the City Region Mayor contest.

Shambolic process that could have seen Labour lose in Liverpool. Which would have been, well, wow


----------



## SpookyFrank (May 9, 2021)

woweed said:


> hehehe, tell me more.



The original Labour candidate was poleaxed by the party leadership for what appeared to be no reason at all.


----------



## kebabking (May 9, 2021)

Burnham has already tweeted that he he doesn't support Raynor's sacking...

I doubt it's rats leaving a sinking ship, but it certainly feels like ships in port discretely moving away from that bulk carrier filled with fertilizer that stinks of hot diesel...


----------



## TopCat (May 9, 2021)

oryx said:


> Don't know anything about Sarah Jones, but it's a big thumbs down from me for the rest of the rumoured promotions.


Up to her neck in the cabal that has fucked Croydon financially for generations.


----------



## JTG (May 9, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> The original Labour candidate was poleaxed by the party leadership for what appeared to be no reason at all.


Selections hadn't been made yet but the three candidates weren't given a reason. They weren't even that far left, though the favourite was a Corbyn supporter


----------



## JTG (May 9, 2021)

kebabking said:


> Burnham has already tweeted that he he doesn't support Raynor's sacking...
> 
> I doubt it's rats leaving a sinking ship, but it certainly feels like ships in port discretely moving away from that bulk carrier filled with fertilizer that stinks of hot diesel...


Only people supporting him are the extreme right and that support comes with a price - their guys in key positions


----------



## woweed (May 9, 2021)

JTG said:


> Only people supporting him are the extreme right and that support comes with a price - their guys in key positions



hehe, it would be entertaining if you go on only on these points further more.


----------



## RileyOBlimey (May 9, 2021)

It’s daft calling him Keith when his middle name is Rodney. Think of the meme potential.

Rodney, you plonker.


----------



## strung out (May 9, 2021)

JTG said:


> Only people supporting him are the extreme right and that support comes with a price - their guys in key positions


Dan Norris has already come out in support of him 😂


----------



## JTG (May 9, 2021)

strung out said:


> Dan Norris has already come out in support of him 😂


Amazing


----------



## TopCat (May 9, 2021)

Marr show should be good.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (May 9, 2021)

JTG said:


> Yeah, I mean the Liverpool mayoral selection was dreadful for a start and was reflected in the result. Not sure how much influence Rayner had in that but just one example


Team Rayner are saying that she wasn't given much leeway, which of course they would say, but is also pretty believable.


----------



## JTG (May 9, 2021)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Team Rayner are saying that she wasn't given much leeway, which of course they would say, but is also pretty believable.


I can believe it but also wonder what she may have expected. Lots of people on the left saying "I told you so" in her general direction this morning


----------



## killer b (May 9, 2021)

Why are people telling her 'I told you so'? What other option does the elected deputy leader of the party have than to work with the leader of the party?


----------



## Knotted (May 9, 2021)

She could have Tom Watsoned him. Not that that would have been a good idea, but precedent has been set.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 9, 2021)

killer b said:


> Why are people telling her 'I told you so'? What other option does the elected deputy leader of the party have than to work with the leader of the party?


Work with them. They don't have to work for them. And if you remember Tom Watson's antics against Jeremy Corbyn they can even work against them.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 9, 2021)

Knotted said:


> She could have Tom Watsoned him. Not that that would have been a good idea, but precedent has been set.


----------



## killer b (May 9, 2021)

Knotted said:


> She could have Tom Watsoned him.


Presumably she will Tom Watson him now. One of the reasons it was a bad idea to fuck her tbh


----------



## Pickman's model (May 9, 2021)

killer b said:


> Presumably she will Tom Watson him now. One of the reasons it was a bad idea to fuck her tbh


Any leader with a strategic vision, or indeed with a knowledge of what happened under the previous leader, might have acted rather differently and if I was leader of the labour party I'd have asked her to head a review of the campaign involving visiting the local parties over the next several months.


----------



## Edie (May 9, 2021)

“On Saturday even Starmer loyalists were beginning to wonder if he had it in him to bounce back. After the Labour leader staged a stiff response for TV cameras on Friday, saying he took personal responsibility, some of his closest allies could not hide their dismay. “He did it in front of a whole load of copies of Hansard, with what looked like a dead plant in the background,” said a senior ally. “He was sweating. It was awful. Getting these things right are the basics. It was just appalling.”

Another frontbencher said: “*He looked like he had been fucking tasered. It was terrible.*”

  fucking hell


----------



## Plumdaff (May 9, 2021)

How would he cope with a GE campaign if this is what he's like after one or two shitty days?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 9, 2021)

Plumdaff said:


> How would he cope with a GE campaign if this is what he's like after one or two shitty days?


He'll be exposed as the fraud he is


----------



## killer b (May 9, 2021)

According to the graun live blog, they're now saying Rayner hasn't been sacked actually.

(Ian Murray seems to be the guy they send out to tell risible lies this weekend, cf. The Scottish Parliament elections thread)


----------



## Pickman's model (May 9, 2021)

killer b said:


> According to the graun live blog, they're now saying Rayner hasn't been sacked actually.
> 
> (Ian Murray seems to be the guy they send out to tell risible lies this weekend, cf. The Scottish Parliament elections thread)
> 
> View attachment 267439


She will have more time to spend on her deputy leader duties


----------



## TopCat (May 9, 2021)

Dunderhead. I mean what was he thinking? Sack Rayner and promote Jess Phillips?


----------



## agricola (May 9, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Dunderhead. I mean what was he thinking? Sack Rayner and promote Jess Phillips?



you mean sack-promote Rayner and promote-sack Jess Phillips


----------



## brogdale (May 9, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Dunderhead. I mean what was he thinking? Sack Rayner and promote Jess Phillips?


When you come from Oxted, the Grammar school educated daughter of entrepreneurs is what you think a working class person looks like.


----------



## TopCat (May 9, 2021)

Bab this bab that. Fucks sake.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 9, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Dunderhead. I mean what was he thinking? Sack Rayner and promote Jess Phillips?


He's doomed


----------



## Dogsauce (May 9, 2021)




----------



## Smokeandsteam (May 9, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Bab this bab that. Fucks sake.



The constant over use of ‘bab’ and the Brum accent that gets stronger by the hour from middle class as fuck Jess seriously pisses me off...


----------



## mauvais (May 9, 2021)




----------



## Steel Icarus (May 9, 2021)

killer b said:


> According to the graun live blog, they're now saying Rayner hasn't been sacked actually.
> 
> (Ian Murray seems to be the guy they send out to tell risible lies this weekend, cf. The Scottish Parliament elections thread)
> 
> View attachment 267439


_Involuntarily strategically redeployed_


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (May 9, 2021)

killer b said:


> According to the graun live blog, they're now saying Rayner hasn't been sacked actually.
> 
> (Ian Murray seems to be the guy they send out to tell risible lies this weekend, cf. The Scottish Parliament elections thread)
> 
> View attachment 267439



Has he panicked and promoted her to leader?


----------



## agricola (May 9, 2021)

mauvais said:


>




Tony and Cherie hear about this tweet:


----------



## mauvais (May 9, 2021)

Fuck, that really looks like him!


----------



## kebabking (May 9, 2021)

I've been busy with a fence - has _shagger _been on TV to recite the sagas of his mighty victories and sing the names of the fallen of his war band?


----------



## Nine Bob Note (May 9, 2021)

elbows said:


> Maybe Starmer got confused about getting behind the flag, and got behind a red flag


----------



## RileyOBlimey (May 9, 2021)




----------



## ska invita (May 9, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Marr show should be good.


Steady


----------



## butchersapron (May 9, 2021)

RileyOBlimey said:


> This is repeating far-right propaganda and conspiracy theories, it’s lazy and promoting hate.
> 
> Conflating valid criticisms of the crimes committed by the state of Israel with fascist bullshit pedalled on the Internet is an insult to the people who suffered in the Holocaust. It also provides a base for future atrocities.


Of course, the notion of Israeli/Jewish puppetry and the obsessive pushing of that claimed agenda onto everything everywhere is not part of 'far-right propaganda and conspiracy theories'.

Nothing whatsoever learnt.


----------



## Idris2002 (May 9, 2021)

agricola said:


> Tony and Cherie hear about this tweet:


There must be a growing number of voters who don't really remember the Blair years, surely?


----------



## RileyOBlimey (May 9, 2021)

butchersapron said:


> Of course, the notion of Israeli/Jewish puppetry and the obsessive pushing of that claimed agenda onto everything everywhere is not part of 'far-right propaganda and conspiracy theories'.
> 
> Nothing whatsoever learnt.



Using straw men arguments to belittle antisemitism on a Sunday morning? 

Run out of Coco Pops?


----------



## Plumdaff (May 9, 2021)

Idris2002 said:


> There must be a growing number of voters who don't really remember the Blair years, surely?


Also, imagine if anyone in Labour in the 1990s, after Smith died, had advocated Jim Callaghan for leader. Adonis is a fucking idiot.


----------



## butchersapron (May 9, 2021)

RileyOBlimey said:


> Using straw men arguments to belittle antisemitism on a Sunday morning?
> 
> Run out of Coco Pops?


Been here two minutes (this time?) and straight into jewish puppetry. Yes, this will be fun.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 9, 2021)

RileyOBlimey said:


> Using straw men arguments to belittle antisemitism on a Sunday morning?
> 
> Run out of Coco Pops?


You believe in bigging up anti-semitism then


----------



## DotCommunist (May 9, 2021)

Plumdaff said:


> Also, imagine if anyone in Labour in the 1990s, after Smith died, had advocated Jim Callaghan for leader. Adonis is a fucking idiot.


Adonis is calling for the return of St Blair almost constantly, he's obsessed with the idea of Blair as the most capable politician, or even man, of our age. Total prat


----------



## RileyOBlimey (May 9, 2021)

butchersapron said:


> Been here two minutes (this time?) and straight into jewish puppetry. Yes, this will be fun.



Hang on, you were the one pedalling this.

Do you think Jess Phillips was correct to label the phrase “Palestine Lives” antisemitic?


----------



## flypanam (May 9, 2021)

DotCommunist said:


> Adonis is calling for the return of St Blair almost constantly, he's obsessed with the idea of Blair as the most capable politician, or even man, of our age. Total prat


What is it with these pricks that they think people can't remember? Adonis and Blair might think history and memory don't matter but there are plenty of people who do.


----------



## RileyOBlimey (May 9, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> You believe in bigging up anti-semitism then



I believe in antisemites getting lamped.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 9, 2021)

RileyOBlimey said:


> I believe in antisemites getting lamped.


And how many racists have you lamped?


----------



## Ted Striker (May 9, 2021)

killer b said:


> According to the graun live blog, they're now saying Rayner hasn't been sacked actually.
> 
> (Ian Murray seems to be the guy they send out to tell risible lies this weekend, cf. The Scottish Parliament elections thread)
> 
> View attachment 267439



Fire and rehire


----------



## RileyOBlimey (May 9, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> And how many racists have you lamped?



A few. You?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 9, 2021)

RileyOBlimey said:


> A few. You?


You what? Do you mean "have I lamped you?", "Do you believe in racists getting lamped?", or "Have you lamped racists?"?


----------



## RileyOBlimey (May 9, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> You what? Do you mean "have I lamped you?", "Do you believe in racists getting lamped?", or "Have you lamped racists?"?



The latter.


----------



## killer b (May 9, 2021)

RileyOBlimey said:


> Hang on, you were the one pedalling this.
> 
> Do you think Jess Phillips was correct to label the phrase “Palestine Lives” antisemitic?


Stand down, soldier: the war is over. You lost.


----------



## butchersapron (May 9, 2021)

RileyOBlimey said:


> Hang on, you were the one pedalling this.
> 
> Do you think Jess Phillips was correct to label the phrase “Palestine Lives” antisemitic?


MPs having shitty views should be a surprise to no one. People arguing that these the person holding those view  are promoted because of isreali/jewish string pulling should a worry to everyone. The last few years should have shown that clearly enough. But, as i said above. no a single thing has been learnt.


----------



## ska invita (May 9, 2021)

killer b said:


> Stand down, soldier: the war is over. You lost.


that war is far from over as long as the Israeli state is at war with Palestinians; Starmer's attempt to stuff it all in a box and throw away the key is doomed to unravel.


----------



## killer b (May 9, 2021)

ska invita said:


> that war is far from over as long as the Israeli state is at war with Palestinians; Starmer's attempt to stuff it all in a box and throw away the key is doomed to unravel.


That's not the war I'm talking about


----------



## RileyOBlimey (May 9, 2021)

butchersapron said:


> MPs having shitty views should be a surprise to no one. People arguing that these the person holding those view  are promoted because of isreali/jewish string pulling should a a worry to everyone. The last few years should have shown that clearly enough. But, as i said above. no a single thing has been learnt.



I don’t believe there are these strings. She comes across as amoral and and willing do and say what she thinks will get where she wants. Murdoch obviously has seen the potential.


----------



## RileyOBlimey (May 9, 2021)

Looks like Starmer team has decided the best way forward is to brief against Rayner saying she was gobby and stroppy. Fucking hell.


----------



## Plumdaff (May 9, 2021)

Apparently Rayner was such a liability that they've had to find her a promotion


----------



## Mr Moose (May 9, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Any leader with a strategic vision, or indeed with a knowledge of what happened under the previous leader, might have acted rather differently and if I was leader of the labour party I'd have asked her to head a review of the campaign involving visiting the local parties over the next several months, *a* *review that will reach the conclusion that she should step down.*



Fixed for you.


----------



## Mr Moose (May 9, 2021)

Plumdaff said:


> Apparently Rayner was such a liability that they've had to find her a promotion



Same with Corbyn, who is not so much out of the party as having received a _significant promotion._


----------



## mauvais (May 9, 2021)




----------



## Pickman's model (May 9, 2021)

RileyOBlimey said:


> The latter.


Yes


----------



## SlideshowBob (May 9, 2021)

If this actually was intended as a promotion and there's no falling out between her and Starmer then it's possibly the worst political PR I've ever seen.


----------



## hitmouse (May 9, 2021)

Fucking hell, some proper "the dog ate my homework" level lying going on there.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 9, 2021)

In former times starmer might have been able to expect being kicked upstairs and becoming an EU commissioner

Now in these straitened times he can only expect to be kicked


----------



## Sprocket. (May 9, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> In former times starmer might have been able to expect being kicked upstairs and becoming an EU commissioner
> 
> Now in these straitened times he can only expect to be kicked


He might go full Reg Prentice and be more comfortable in his new surroundings!


----------



## Gramsci (May 9, 2021)

Leighsw2 said:


> Originally it was going to be the 'John Lewis' council, but I think they went for 'cooperative' in the end as a bit more 'labour'. Have to say I don't think anyone ever understood what it actually meant!



I did follow it.

As Steve Reed is part of Starmer shadow cabinet dealing with communities and local government its worth looking at how he led a local Council.

If Labour Party is to be rebuild at local level then he will have influence.

The idea of a Council working with local community to design services and have input into how they are managed is not necessarily to be rejected.

It could have been something the left and right of party could agree on and work on.

In Lambeth that didn't happen.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 9, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> I did follow it.
> 
> As Steve Reed is part of Starmer shadow cabinet dealing with communities and local government its worth looking at how he led a local Council.
> 
> ...


Yeh but who better to oversee this vital plank than someone who cocked it up in Lambeth, being as we all know you learn more from mistakes than successes


----------



## Sue (May 9, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Fucking hell, some proper "the dog ate my homework" level lying going on there.


And they're even shit at the lying thing which should traditionally be their bread and butter.

To be honest, I feel (slightly) sorry for Ian Murray. He became Shadow Scottish Secretary because he was literally last MP standing. And now he keeps getting wheeled out even though he's really rubbish.


----------



## brogdale (May 9, 2021)

When's this fucking reshuffle/right-wing coup gonna be announced, then?


----------



## teqniq (May 9, 2021)

brogdale said:


> When's this fucking reshuffle/right-wing coup gonna be announced, then?


Could this be the answer?


----------



## PR1Berske (May 9, 2021)

Idris2002 said:


> There must be a growing number of voters who don't really remember the Blair years, surely?



24 years is an immensely long time in politics. 

But as long as people carry on talking about Blair and his time in office, the longer it stays "alive". 

Thatcher has not been PM since 1991. She is still invoked as a warning against the Conservatives after 30 years.

There does appear to be a cut-off point, maybe in cultural terms, maybe because contemporary history seems to have started in the collective memory around the early 1980s, which is why the time of Wilson or Heath is hardly mentioned or recalled at all. Maybe in one or two generations time, we won't hear of Thatcher again. Maybe that's how long it takes for events to fade from anecdote and into history.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 9, 2021)

teqniq said:


> Could this be the answer?



Tbh if I was starmer I'd be right tempted to hand this poisoned chalice to Rayner with the challenge, go on then let's see you do better


----------



## Pickman's model (May 9, 2021)

PR1Berske said:


> 24 years is an immensely long time in politics.
> 
> But as long as people carry on talking about Blair and his time in office, the longer it stays "alive".
> 
> ...


Margaret thatcher famously left office in November 1990


----------



## RileyOBlimey (May 9, 2021)




----------



## Puddy_Tat (May 9, 2021)

PR1Berske said:


> 24 years is an immensely long time in politics.
> 
> But as long as people carry on talking about Blair and his time in office, the longer it stays "alive".
> 
> ...



dunno - the 'winter of discontent' is still dragged up by the tories now and then, as occasionally is the three day week.  and one or two elections ago the tories were talking about 'ration book labour' (i think that was in relation to access to the NHS being on need rather than wealth - it was a bit hard to understand then)


----------



## Pickman's model (May 9, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> dunno - the 'winter of discontent' is still dragged up by the tories now and then, as occasionally is the three day week.  and one or two elections ago the tories were talking about 'ration book labour' (i think that was in relation to access to the NHS being on need rather than wealth - it was a bit hard to understand then)


Do the Tories really drag up the three day week? Seems peculiar


----------



## maomao (May 9, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Do the Tories really drag up the three day week? Seems peculiar


3 day week = 4 day weekend. Sounds fucking brilliant to me.


----------



## AnnO'Neemus (May 9, 2021)

mauvais said:


>



Fuuuuuuuuuuuck, no! He should be fucking arrested for war crimes, not standing for election again. The last time he was leader he took us into an illegal war. Never again.


----------



## PR1Berske (May 9, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Margaret thatcher famously left office in November 1990


See, there we go. I've hit 41 and my timeline memory has already started to fuse into hazy nothingness.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 9, 2021)

maomao said:


> 3 day week = 4 day weekend. Sounds fucking brilliant to me.


Not sure that's the three day week they'd bring up


----------



## Sprocket. (May 9, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Not sure that's the three day week they'd bring up



Possibly not, but it made memories of the incredible Mick McGahey pop into my cobwebbed brain.


----------



## kebabking (May 9, 2021)

PR1Berske said:


> 24 years is an immensely long time in politics.
> 
> But as long as people carry on talking about Blair and his time in office, the longer it stays "alive".
> 
> Thatcher has not been PM since 1991. She is still invoked as a warning against the Conservatives after 30 years...



Sorry, just wanted to check - how's that working out for you?

The _Thatch _word maybe some totemic utterence in obscure corners of the internet, but not it would appear elsewhere...

Durham, Hartlepool, Dudley - no one gives the slightest shit about the old ghosts you think are at the beating heart of politics. Same with Blair, he's be no means the bogy man you may think he is. He's long gone, more a figure of fun - for those who recognise him - than this terrifying spectre who haunts every voting booth.

Disconnect. Just total disconnect.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 9, 2021)

Sprocket. said:


> Possibly not, but it made memories of the incredible Mick McGahey pop into my cobwebbed brain.


Yeh brought to mind that song he wrote with Rick santers, not gonna die, for me too


----------



## PR1Berske (May 9, 2021)

kebabking said:


> Sorry, just wanted to check - how's that working out for you?
> 
> The _Thatch _word maybe some totemic utterence in obscure corners of the internet, but not it would appear elsewhere...
> 
> ...



I don't agree that they're ghosts. They are invoked, and not just on-line. 

I do agree that some parts of the UK appear to have moved on completely, which is why the reaction to Blyth Valley etc. from outside the area is often framed in the language of "How can [ex-mining village] vote Tory, don't they remember Thatcher?".


----------



## MrSki (May 9, 2021)




----------



## kebabking (May 9, 2021)

They are invoked, by a tiny sub-sect of people who obsess about them - it's just that no one else cares.


----------



## RileyOBlimey (May 9, 2021)

Is it me or is this Starmer trying to look like Burnham?


----------



## Kaka Tim (May 9, 2021)

RileyOBlimey said:


>




Have top say, in those clips, David Brent demonstrates far more credibility and political skill than Starmer.


----------



## Plumdaff (May 9, 2021)

Rachel Reeves as shadow chancellor  Going for outflanking the Tories on the right, then. What a fucking nightmare.


----------



## Quote (May 9, 2021)

Plumdaff said:


> Rachel Reeves as shadow chancellor  Going for outflanking the Tories on the right, then. What a fucking nightmare.



Let the benefits claimants bodies pile high.


----------



## gawkrodger (May 9, 2021)

this utter shiteshow is hilarious


----------



## RileyOBlimey (May 9, 2021)

Plumdaff said:


> Rachel Reeves as shadow chancellor  Going for outflanking the Tories on the right, then. What a fucking nightmare.











						Labour will be tougher than Tories on benefits, vows Rachel Reeves
					

New shadow work and pensions minister says party will cut welfare bill and force long-term unemployed to take up work offers or lose support




					www.theguardian.com
				




What’s the point of Labour?


----------



## JTG (May 9, 2021)

New shadow housing secretary Lucy Powell is... a landlord


----------



## mauvais (May 9, 2021)

Yes, although seems to be a room in a flat.


----------



## Wilf (May 9, 2021)

Tracy Brabin elected West Yorkshire mayor, meaning there'll be a by election in Batley and Spen.
Labour’s Tracy Brabin elected first mayor of West Yorkshire | Elections 2021 | The Guardian 

Don't see Burnham going for it, as it would make him look an opportunist twat after committing to the Manchester mayor job a couple of days ago.  And if he did go for it kieth would make sure someone else was parachuted in.  Anyway, if Labour lose Batley and Spen there's going to be real pressure on starmer.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 9, 2021)

RileyOBlimey said:


> Is it me or is this Starmer trying to look like Burnham?View attachment 267563


Starmer with Ben Elton specs but no humour


----------



## gosub (May 9, 2021)

RR Auction
					

Take advantage of RR Auction's amazing Online Collectible Auctions. A unique opportunity to browse and bid on anything from memorabilia to historical artifacts




					rrauction.com


----------



## Artaxerxes (May 9, 2021)

mauvais said:


> Yes, although seems to be a room in a flat.



Rather more. A block of flats and rents a room in her flat.


----------



## RileyOBlimey (May 9, 2021)

Rachel Reeves says Labour does not want to represent people out of work
					

'Labour are a party of working people, formed for and by working people'




					www.independent.co.uk
				




That’s some ugly shit.


----------



## mauvais (May 9, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Rather more. A block of flats and rents a room in her flat.


Not that I want to defend these people, but before everyone shoots themselves in the foot calling it out, I think the "block of flats" is a management company that tenants flat owners have formed to look after the shared fabric of a building they live in. Not exactly hot stuff.


----------



## Throbbing Angel (May 9, 2021)

RileyOBlimey said:


> Is it me or is this Starmer trying to look like Burnham?View attachment 267563


----------



## JTG (May 9, 2021)

RileyOBlimey said:


> Is it me or is this Starmer trying to look like Burnham?View attachment 267563



John Shuttleworth I think


----------



## Artaxerxes (May 9, 2021)

mauvais said:


> Not that I want to defend these people, but before everyone shoots themselves in the foot calling it out, I think the "block of flats" is a management company that tenants have formed to look after the shared fabric of a building they live in. Not exactly hot stuff.



Looking at company house you are about half right, several of the directors registered there but several are not.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (May 9, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Rather more. A block of flats and rents a room in her flat.





mauvais said:


> Not that I want to defend these people, but before everyone shoots themselves in the foot calling it out, I think the "block of flats" is a management company that tenants have formed to look after the shared fabric of a building they live in. Not exactly hot stuff.



yes, that.  sounds like it's more likely to be the sort of block that's 'shared freehold' where the leaseholder of each flat has a share in the freehold of the block, rather than the freehold being owned by someone else



Artaxerxes said:


> Looking at company house you are about half right, several of the directors registered there but several are not.



they could be leaseholders who for whatever reason (probably buy to let) rent the whole flat out and don't live there


----------



## mauvais (May 9, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Looking at company house you are about half right, several of the directors registered there but several are not.


I did that already - FML  - and they all lived there bar two, one of which is Powell (MP for Manchester, registered there) and one other.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 9, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Looking at company house you are about half right, several of the directors registered there but several are not.


Yeh. You know their addresses don't have to be home addresses I suppose. Have you gone on to check the electoral register for them? Your personal information on the Companies House register


----------



## Artaxerxes (May 9, 2021)

As a permanent renter it's all fucking obscure to me anyway so fuck it.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (May 9, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> As a permanent renter it's all fucking obscure to me anyway so fuck it.



leasehold can be a massive crock of shite.

i have a vague feeling that the blair government did consider doing something to improve it, but since a lot of freeholders tend to be bloody rich and make money out of screwing the individual leaseholders, it got booted in to the long grass...


----------



## Artaxerxes (May 9, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> leasehold can be a massive crock of shite.
> 
> i have a vague feeling that the blair government did consider doing something to improve it, but since a lot of freeholders tend to be bloody rich and make money out of screwing the individual leaseholders, it got booted in to the long grass...



Leasehold on flats makes a small amount of sense, shared building after all*, otherwise it's just renting by another name.

*It's wildly fucked up though as seen by the cladding bill fuckery.


----------



## starfish (May 9, 2021)

Who would make you all happy?


----------



## strung out (May 9, 2021)

starfish said:


> Who would make you all happy?


Stalin.


----------



## starfish (May 9, 2021)

strung out said:


> Stalin.


I said all.


----------



## two sheds (May 9, 2021)

strong leader


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 10, 2021)

editor said:


> My vote would go to
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Bell is unashamedly left-wing, & a damned good constituency MP to boot. She's done more for Streatham in 2 yrs, than Tosspot Umunna did in 9.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 10, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> View attachment 267218



Philips looks like she's 40 hours in, on a 48hr sulphate binge.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 10, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> She's a useful idiot . Plays safe and  thinks too much of herself to be the stalking horse candidate., but can be primed to stick the boot in or land a blow from a far.



She also has a rich fantasy life where she tells Diane Abbott to fuck off, & offers to stab Jeremy Corbyn "in the front", among other Chinny Reckon tales.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 10, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> That's the constable off deep space 9 isn't it?



Good old Odo.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 10, 2021)

splonkydoo said:


> At least Odo was a decent shape-shifter.



Only after a fair bit of practice, though. 

He was also a more convincing sentient being than Kieth is.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 10, 2021)

Serge Forward said:


> Must tell my 90 year old mam in Salford that she's now woke metropolitan elite



She'll probably piss in yer tea next time you visit her, if you do that.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 10, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Suede were from Essex or something.



Hayward's Heath.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 10, 2021)

Idris2002 said:


> Something something Starmer something buys The Farm.



Starmer may well buy The Farm, but he's never gonna be a passenger on the groovy train.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (May 10, 2021)

ViolentPanda said:


> but he's never gonna be a passenger on the groovy train.



but is that because the tories have privatised it?


----------



## ska invita (May 10, 2021)

RileyOBlimey said:


> Rachel Reeves says Labour does not want to represent people out of work
> 
> 
> 'Labour are a party of working people, formed for and by working people'
> ...


Anyone got anything else on Rachel Reeves? Obviously that's enough, but I'd like to know a bit more about the new Shadow Chancellor.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 10, 2021)

Leighsw2 said:


> Originally it was going to be the 'John Lewis' council, but I think they went for 'cooperative' in the end as a bit more 'labour'. Have to say I don't think anyone ever understood what it actually meant!



The favourite theory at Chez Panda at the time, is he assumed "co-operative" was as meaningless as his then-membership of the co-operative party, & just used it as a device for saying "we'll listen">
Of course, us old Lambeth hands know that they don't listen, & more damagingly, they don't *hear*.


----------



## ska invita (May 10, 2021)

*

a couple more from Twitter*


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 10, 2021)

mauvais said:


>




That smarmy slaphead ratfucker doesn't have an ounce of political nous in his scrawny syphilitic body, so forgive me if I treat his claim as the ravings of a terminally-diseased mind.


----------



## Shechemite (May 10, 2021)

ska invita said:


> View attachment 267573*View attachment 267574
> 
> a couple more from Twitter*



Grim. When was that?


----------



## ska invita (May 10, 2021)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Grim. When was that?


Sorry dont know, just saw on Twitter. Hard to search as am on phone


----------



## Shechemite (May 10, 2021)

No worries.


----------



## Raheem (May 10, 2021)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Grim. When was that?











						Labour MP warns UK could 'explode' if immigration is not curbed
					

Former Shadow Cabinet minister says voters want end to freedom of movement




					www.independent.co.uk
				












						Labour will be tougher than Tories on benefits, vows Rachel Reeves
					

New shadow work and pensions minister says party will cut welfare bill and force long-term unemployed to take up work offers or lose support




					www.google.com


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 10, 2021)

RileyOBlimey said:


> Is it me or is this Starmer trying to look like Burnham?View attachment 267563



Nah, Kieth has worn the Harrington Jacket before. He thinks it gives him cred with "the kidz".


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 10, 2021)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Grim. When was that?


Guardian article about benefits is from 2013.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 10, 2021)

starfish said:


> Who would make you all happy?



The Kurgan from the 1st Highlander film.


----------



## petee (May 10, 2021)

ViolentPanda said:


> That smarmy slaphead ratfucker doesn't have an ounce of political nous in his scrawny syphilitic body, so forgive me if I treat his claim as the ravings of a terminally-diseased mind.



i have no business on this thread, but that's epic.


----------



## Shechemite (May 10, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Labour MP warns UK could 'explode' if immigration is not curbed
> 
> 
> Former Shadow Cabinet minister says voters want end to freedom of movement
> ...





Lord Camomile said:


> Guardian article about benefits is from 2013.



Ta.


----------



## Shechemite (May 10, 2021)

One party state (sort of). Yay.


----------



## splonkydoo (May 10, 2021)

ViolentPanda said:


> Only after a fair bit of practice, though.
> 
> He was also a more convincing sentient being than Kieth is.



He also, at the end of every evening, shape-shifted in to a bucket.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 10, 2021)

splonkydoo said:


> He also, at the end of every evening, shape-shifted in to a bucket.



Whereas Kieth 24/7 comprises the shit that should be in the bucket.


----------



## splonkydoo (May 10, 2021)

ska invita said:


> View attachment 267573*View attachment 267574
> 
> a couple more from Twitter*




but.....she talks tough and is good looking? This is surely a win for team Starmer?


----------



## splonkydoo (May 10, 2021)

absolute state of this guardian article from head to toe.... i wanted to post snippets but the whole thing has overwhelmed me
Labour reshuffle: Angela Rayner takes major role after Keir Starmer standoff | Labour | The Guardian


----------



## AnnO'Neemus (May 10, 2021)

mauvais said:


> Not that I want to defend these people, but before everyone shoots themselves in the foot calling it out, I think the "block of flats" is a management company that tenants have formed to look after the shared fabric of a building they live in. Not exactly hot stuff.


Not tenants, leaseholders. This kind of set up, where leaseholders also own part of the freehold, is more common where a big house has been split up into flats, rather than purpose built flats. And, yes, it's usually the vehicle for managing the building, in that leaseholders would either manage the building themselves, or they'd appoint a property management company to do it for them.

I agree with you, mauvais, there's nothing untoward or underhand in this arrangement. Probably lots of Londoners have a similar arrangement if they bought a flat in a building that was formerly a big house. In fact, it's indicative of how much of a mess London housing market is in, in that so many houses have been split up into smaller flats, because the big houses are unaffordable to many, and also property developers make big profits by doing these kinds of conversions.


----------



## Kaka Tim (May 10, 2021)

Re raheal reeves. She's my mp and I've met her a few times through work. 
Politically not much to tell. But she's has a very annoying voice and is a chess champion. Does turn up for lots of community stuff but seems quite brittle and lacking in warmth. A female version of starmer.


----------



## Kaka Tim (May 10, 2021)

Starmer is turning out to be labours Ian Duncan smith


----------



## Pickman's model (May 10, 2021)

Kaka Tim said:


> Starmer is turning out to be labours Ian Duncan smith


No he's worse than that


----------



## brogdale (May 10, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> No he's worse than that


More like if Grayling had been given the leadership.


----------



## Steel Icarus (May 10, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Starmer with Ben Elton specs but no humour


So...Ben Elton.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 10, 2021)

S☼I said:


> So...Ben Elton.


He'd be a rather better leader than starmer and would have Johnson crying tears of wrath


----------



## Artaxerxes (May 10, 2021)

starfish said:


> I said all.



Trotsky


----------



## Lorca (May 10, 2021)

RileyOBlimey said:


> Rachel Reeves says Labour does not want to represent people out of work
> 
> 
> 'Labour are a party of working people, formed for and by working people'
> ...


I mean, i'm no astute political operator, but it strikes even me that when the first thing you do is to basically signal you don't want a million and a half odd people's votes, you might not be the most adept politician.


----------



## Knotted (May 10, 2021)

Lorca said:


> I mean, i'm no astute political operator, but it strikes even me that when the first thing you do is to basically signal you don't want a million and a half odd people's votes, you might not be the most adept politician.



I think the thinking is that these are the votes you can take for granted and are often useless anyway as they stack up in safe Labour seats. Of course that thinking was not just appalling but now quite clearly factually incorrect.

This was just before the Corbyn moment appropriately enough.


----------



## ska invita (May 10, 2021)

Rachel Reeves wiki has some okay info on it. 

Including 

Political positions and viewsEdit
Reeves has written a study on the financial crisis of 2007–2010 for the Fabian Review, Institute of Public Policy Research,[39] Socialist Environment and Resources Association,[40] and the European Journal of Political Economy.[41] In an article for Renewal entitled "The Politics of Deficit Reduction", Reeves offers her critique of the then-current financial situation and efforts to bring down the budget deficit.[42]

Reeves is a proponent of quantitative easing[43] to alleviate the late-2000s recession, having studied the effects of the policy on Japan in the early 2000s.[44]

In 2013, on becoming Shadow Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, she announced that Labour would be tougher than the Conservatives in reducing the benefits bill, with the long-term unemployed having to take a guaranteed job offer or lose benefits. The proposal was that anyone unemployed for two years, or one year if under 25 years old, would be required to take a job.[45]

Reeves supports the High Speed 2 rail project,[46] and raised the issue in the House of Commons,[47] as well as campaigning for the proposed Kirkstall Forge railway station.[48] She is also involved in the campaign to save the historic Bramley Baths[49][50] and the campaign to save the children's heart unit at Leeds General Infirmary.[51]

Reeves is a vice-chair of Labour Friends of Israel,[52] contributed a chapter to a book about Israeli politics and society,[53] and supports the Auschwitz-Birkenau Foundation.[54][55]

Reeves has been a long-standing admirer of Nancy Astor and has frequently praised her actions as an MP.[56][57]


----------



## steveo87 (May 10, 2021)

My son is just over 15 months old, I have every belief that the Tories will still be in power by the time he goes to secondary school....


----------



## hitmouse (May 10, 2021)

Some more on Reeves here: Rachel Reeves – the void


----------



## Raheem (May 10, 2021)

steveo87 said:


> My son is just over 15 months old, I have every belief that the Tories will still be in power by the time he goes to secondary school....


Surely you mean "by the time he starts part-time secondary school, part-time bonded labour"?


----------



## steveo87 (May 10, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Surely you mean "by the time he starts part-time secondary school, part-time bonded labour"?


Whilst hunting the wastes fir the last edible rat, he'll turn to me and ask 'what's secondary school?'.


----------



## Raheem (May 10, 2021)

steveo87 said:


> Whilst hunting the wastes fir the last edible rat, he'll turn to me and ask 'what's secondary school?'.


And you'll answer by quoting Shakespeare, but he won't get the reference.


----------



## Wilf (May 10, 2021)

Lorca said:


> I mean, i'm no astute political operator, but it strikes even me that when the first thing you do is to basically signal you don't want a million and a half odd people's votes, you might not be the most adept politician.


A reminder not just how fucking awful she is, but also the Miliband leadership was.  Looking at the date of that report, she came out with that as part of the push to win power in 2015. Fucking scum.


----------



## SpookyFrank (May 10, 2021)

Lorca said:


> I mean, i'm no astute political operator, but it strikes even me that when the first thing you do is to basically signal you don't want a million and a half odd people's votes, you might not be the most adept politician.



It's aged well though, really suits a time when absolutely shitloads of people have lost their jobs through no fault of their own.


----------



## killer b (May 10, 2021)

Knotted said:


> This was just before the Corbyn moment appropriately enough.


It wasn't only just before the Corbyn moment - it was one of the key speeches that created the Corbyn moment. That Reeves is now in the second most senior position in the parliamentary party should be a sign of just how over that moment is.


----------



## Rimbaud (May 10, 2021)

killer b said:


> It wasn't only just before the Corbyn moment - it was one of the key speeches that created the Corbyn moment. That Reeves is now in the second most senior position in the parliamentary party should be a sign of just how over that moment is.



And how finished the Labour Party is.


----------



## Kaka Tim (May 10, 2021)

Although the right wing of the labour party have just pored a bucket of shit over themselves - despite starmers new shadow cabinet, hes effectively set up raynor as an alternative left(ish)  centre of power, his authority and reputation is shattered and I dont think many people within the LP believe that doubling down on the "moderate sensible centrism" is the way forward. Especially after Hartlepool.


----------



## ska invita (May 10, 2021)

killer b said:


> It wasn't only just before the Corbyn moment - it was one of the key speeches that created the Corbyn moment. That Reeves is now in the second most senior position in the parliamentary party should be a sign of just how over that moment is.


i know what you're saying but this is increasingly looking like the labour right burning up like a comet / last stand at the ok coral / going down in flames , choose your metaphor> if this is all a dialectic/reactionary response to corbyn, i reckon the pendulum is looking set to swing back the other way much sooner than might have happened otherwise.


----------



## two sheds (May 10, 2021)

ska invita said:


> i know what you're saying but this is increasingly looking like the labour right burning up like a comet / last stand at the ok coral / going down in flames , choose your metaphor> if this is all a dialectic/reactionary response to corbyn, i reckon the pendulum is looking set to swing back the other way much sooner than might have happened otherwise.


Would love to think so, it'll surely depend on how many right wing MPs there are? From when they were getting rid of Corbyn there lots more of them than left wing.


----------



## Plumdaff (May 10, 2021)

I think were the left ever to be in power within Labour ever again (and I'm not convinced that will ever be allowed by the people who would rather burn the party to the ground) you'd hope a lesson might be that compromise doesn't work, the staff need to be yours, and open selection is an immediate necessity.


----------



## hitmouse (May 10, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> It's aged well though, really suits a time when absolutely shitloads of people have lost their jobs through no fault of their own.


In all fairness, it was absolutely fucking shit when she came out with it at the time.


ska invita said:


> i know what you're saying but this is increasingly looking like the labour right burning up like a comet / last stand at the ok coral / going down in flames , choose your metaphor> if this is all a dialectic/reactionary response to corbyn, i reckon the pendulum is looking set to swing back the other way much sooner than might have happened otherwise.


I mean, the Corbyn moment wasn't just purely a product of the Labour right being shit and ineffective, it was the combination of that with a critical mass of people deciding that they wanted to put their energies into Labour, and I'm not convinced that's coming back. I wonder what Green membership figures are looking like at the moment? I remember the "Green Surge" being much-hyped in the moment immediately pre-Corbyn, and some of the election results would suggest that there's energy swinging back in that direction.


----------



## elbows (May 10, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> In all fairness, it was absolutely fucking shit when she came out with it at the time.
> 
> I mean, the Corbyn moment wasn't just purely a product of the Labour right being shit and ineffective, it was the combination of that with a critical mass of people deciding that they wanted to put their energies into Labour, and I'm not convinced that's coming back. I wonder what Green membership figures are looking like at the moment? I remember the "Green Surge" being much-hyped in the moment immediately pre-Corbyn, and some of the election results would suggest that there's energy swinging back in that direction.



Yes I think its important to consider where the Momentum has gone.


----------



## brogdale (May 10, 2021)

Finally gets round to (publicly) acknowledging Welsh Labour's electoral success last week.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 10, 2021)

Plumdaff said:


> I think were the left ever to be in power within Labour ever again (and I'm not convinced that will ever be allowed by the people who would rather burn the party to the ground) you'd hope a lesson might be that compromise doesn't work, the staff need to be yours, and open selection is an immediate necessity.


what people now call the left in labour is in many ways rather to the right of such stalwart socialists as 'red' jim callaghan and denis 'dzerzhinsky' healey: and even of viscount stansgate himself, auld tony benn


----------



## ska invita (May 10, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> In all fairness, it was absolutely fucking shit when she came out with it at the time.
> 
> I mean, the Corbyn moment wasn't just purely a product of the Labour right being shit and ineffective, it was the combination of that with a critical mass of people deciding that they wanted to put their energies into Labour, and I'm not convinced that's coming back. I wonder what Green membership figures are looking like at the moment? I remember the "Green Surge" being much-hyped in the moment immediately pre-Corbyn, and some of the election results would suggest that there's energy swinging back in that direction.


true, but it wouldnt take much for people to pile back in to labour if it was felt that there was a chance and reason to, and if it happens soon enough perhaps with some lessons learned

yes was thinking about the greens similarly - if the greens win power in Germany - a real chance, seemingly on track to do so - that might also add to a surge of entryism!








						Polls put German Green party in lead five months before election
					

Six out of 10 polls published in past two weeks put Greens ahead of Angela Merkel’s Christian Democratic Union




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Wilf (May 10, 2021)

ska invita said:


> i know what you're saying but this is increasingly looking like the labour right burning up like a comet / last stand at the ok coral / going down in flames , choose your metaphor> if this is all a dialectic/reactionary response to corbyn, i reckon the pendulum is looking set to swing back the other way much sooner than might have happened otherwise.


You put it better than I was going to, the dialectic bit, but I was going to make the same point.  To me we are still playing out the failure of Corbynism and Momentum to grow deep roots and move beyond the borders of the Labour Party and into real life.  It was also a grand old duke of york thing as well as they recruited hundreds of thousand of new members and did very little with them.  It all fell apart around Brexit - Brexit was a lot of things but it was also about a reaction against politicians who play westminster games rather than relate to and organise in communities.  That's my usual rant about Corbynism, but as you say, what we are seeing now is not a 'thing', not an ideology or a project.  Centrist Sensibilism is nothing but saying we are not Corbyn.  Blair came to power at a time when almost anyone could have led Labour to power, but did have it's own politics and sense of direction.  Loathsome as that was, Blair could 'do politics'. Starmer hasn't even got that.

Same time, I don't see the left coming back at any time soon.  The electoral system keeps Labour in place, but hanging on the ropes.


----------



## Wilf (May 10, 2021)

elbows said:


> Yes I think its important to consider where the Momentum has gone.


Inertia.


----------



## Cid (May 10, 2021)

What exactly is the chancellor of the duchy of Lancaster? I mean I know it’s a senior minister without portfolio that technically does a bunch of shit… but I’d assumed (by Gove’s appointment to it) that it was a good place to put someone you don’t like, but need to give some aura of seniority.


----------



## two sheds (May 10, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> what people now call the left in labour is in many ways rather to the right of such stalwart socialists as 'red' jim callaghan and denis 'dzerzhinsky' healey: and even of viscount stansgate himself, auld tony benn



probably rather to the right of that renowned communist Ted Heath.


----------



## NoXion (May 10, 2021)

Oh good grief not the Greens. Awful anti-working class politics with ostensibly environmental excuses.


----------



## Chz (May 10, 2021)

NoXion said:


> Oh good grief not the Greens. Awful anti-working class politics with ostensibly environmental excuses.


The UK Greens have some real loons hiding in their closet, and some fundamentally wrong policies. But bear in mind they've nothing whatsoever to do with the continental Greens.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 10, 2021)

two sheds said:


> probably rather to the right of that renowned communist Ted Heath.


you never hear anyone out of labour talking about the unacceptable face of capitalism, they'd have to get their tongues out of the capitalists' arses first


----------



## ddraig (May 10, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Finally gets round to (publicly) acknowledging Welsh Labour's electoral success last week.


----------



## elbows (May 10, 2021)

> Speaking to Jeremy Vine on BBC Radio 2, former Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn says the party didn't do better in the election because "we weren't strong enough opposing government on Covid, we weren't strong enough on them handing out contracts the way they did".
> 
> He adds that Labour needs to demand "proper support" for people when the furlough scheme comes to an end.
> 
> And he says former Labour minister Peter Mandelson - who last week blamed Labour losses on Corbyn and Covid - was "completely wrong" in his analysis.



Thats from the 12:36 entry on the BBC live updates page https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-57053589

Theres a bunch of reasons why nobody got my vote this time but piss poor pandemic performance was top of the list.


----------



## two sheds (May 10, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> you never hear anyone out of labour talking about the unacceptable face of capitalism, they'd have to get their tongues out of the capitalists' arses first


Top rate on investment income at 90% when Heath was in wasn't it? WIlson the Stalinist raised unearned income tax to 98%


----------



## Pickman's model (May 10, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Top rate on investment income at 90% when Heath was in wasn't it? WIlson the Stalinist raised unearned income tax to 98%


sure starmer could do better than that if he really put his mind to it


----------



## killer b (May 10, 2021)

Cid said:


> What exactly is the chancellor of the duchy of Lancaster? I mean I know it’s a senior minister without portfolio that technically does a bunch of shit… but I’d assumed (by Gove’s appointment to it) that it was a good place to put someone you don’t like, but need to give some aura of seniority.


apparently Johnson has used it to hove off various prime ministerial duties he can't be bothered with to Gove.

some details in Stephen Bush's mail-out this morning

_As deputy leader, Rayner is entitled to a seat at the Shadow Cabinet or, on the rare decades when Labour is in office, the Cabinet proper. Her previous role of party chair and nominal one of national campaign coordinator in theory meant she could range across the whole of the policy piece - but their nebulous nature meant that Starmer could contract or expand her reach at will. 

Now she has a formal role. Because of Boris Johnson's distaste for the challenges of administration and the relative lack of ideological direction from Downing Street as a result, many of what we would usually regard as the core functions of the Prime Minister are performed by Michael Gove, Rayner can range across the whole of the policy piece, but without the ability of Starmer to contract or expand her reach at will. 

If you believe Team Starmer's widely-briefed account of the last 37 hours, they have voluntarily exchanged a situation where they could contain Rayner if she made mistakes or caused them difficulties, to one in which they cannot contain her or easily duplicate her functions elsewhere._


----------



## two sheds (May 10, 2021)

The other thing someone has to do is address the corruption and mismanagement of local labour councils. Which is going to be difficult because they first have to recognize it exists.


----------



## campanula (May 10, 2021)

Christ yes, two sheds. All this talk of red walls and so on utterly belies the fact that many of these dissatisfied voters have been under the sway of Labour councils  for years  (apols for stating the obvious) -and ours has been openly fucking corrupt- most especially regarding selling off public land to property developers for 'student accommodation'...although the last, and arguably worst attempt was a resounding failure. I do know that Tory ideas, re local councils, are essentially centralist control apart from revenue streams  and tax receipts (and fuck all else)...but I didn't abstain this year just because Starmer.


----------



## TopCat (May 10, 2021)

How about Harriet Harman for leader? I think that if I was lectured by a sold middle class type like this to like Tory lite then I would think again.


----------



## two sheds (May 10, 2021)

campanula said:


> Christ yes, two sheds. All this talk of red walls and so on utterly belies the fact that many of these dissatisfied voters have been under the sway of Labour councils  for years  (apols for stating the obvious) -and ours has been openly fucking corrupt- most especially regarding selling off public land to property developers for 'student accommodation'...although the last, and arguably worst attempt was a resounding failure. I do know that Tory ideas, re local councils, are essentially centralist control apart from revenue streams  and tax receipts (and fuck all else)...but I didn't abstain this year just because Starmer.


It's not fucking difficult if they wanted to. They could start from the stories you see in Private Eye every two weeks, alongside complaints from local residents and residents associations. Check them out to make sure the complaints are accurate and then follow them up. Expel the fuckers and stop them getting the golden goodbyes.


----------



## TopCat (May 10, 2021)

two sheds said:


> It's not fucking difficult if they wanted to. They could start from the stories you see in Private Eye every two weeks, alongside complaints from local residents and residents associations. Check them out to make sure the complaints are accurate and then follow them up. Expel the fuckers and stop them getting the golden goodbyes.


I have reported you under Prevent for this post.


----------



## two sheds (May 10, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I have reported you under Prevent for this post.


Editor will come down hard on me I know


----------



## ska invita (May 10, 2021)

NoXion said:


> Oh good grief not the Greens. Awful anti-working class politics with ostensibly environmental excuses.


just to be clear i do not condone it, more saying the surge might happen
i know 2 people personally who regularly stand as green candidates, good solid left people tbf, but my impression is its all very amateur and rag tag - which might throw up a few nutters but is probably better than electing some smooth operating property developing labour councilor


----------



## NoXion (May 10, 2021)

ska invita said:


> just to be clear i do not condone it, more saying the surge might happen
> i know 2 people personally who regularly stand as green candidates, good solid left people tbf, but my impression is its all very amateur and rag tag - which might throw up a few nutters but is probably better than electing some smooth operating property developing labour councilor



Not accusing you of anything, just expressing my distaste at the possibility. The Green Party in its current state is not fit for the purpose IMO.


----------



## Wilf (May 10, 2021)

I'd, of course, agree with the line that starmer's treatment of Rayner is idiotic, counter productive and symbolically terrible.  Having said that, whilst Rayner seems like a solid performer, I've never really heard anything from her that suggests she's going to lead anything like a centre-left revival.  It's not so much that kieth is trying to rid the party of a social democratic alternative. There isn't one to be had in the modern Labour Party.


----------



## Knotted (May 10, 2021)

Agree with Wilf but at the same time I don't feel that the current set up is sustainable especially if they lose Batley and Spen. It looks like they're going to be in permanent crisis with no way out. Starmer might last for ages as a sitting duck leader with nobody wanting to take over the mess they're in.


----------



## Serge Forward (May 10, 2021)

Rimbaud said:


> And how finished the Labour Party is.


Good


----------



## Leighsw2 (May 10, 2021)

AnnO'Neemus said:


> .... Probably lots of Londoners have a similar arrangement if they bought a flat in a building that was formerly a big house. ....


The flatowners in my block share the freehold. We've appointed a management company to look after things. Ours is a purpose-built block, not a conversion.


----------



## ska invita (May 10, 2021)

NoXion said:


> The Green Party in its current state is not fit for the purpose IMO.


Then again what party is? You're right though


----------



## Puddy_Tat (May 10, 2021)

courtesy of the 'breakthrough party' who seem to be trying to attract the young / left / pro-Corbyn types. Not sure if it consists of much more than one person and a tweeter account. main policy plank seems to be blaming everybody over 40 (except possibly jeremy corbyn) for everything...


----------



## redsquirrel (May 10, 2021)

ska invita said:


> i know what you're saying but this is increasingly looking like the labour right burning up like a comet / last stand at the ok coral / going down in flames , choose your metaphor> if this is all a dialectic/reactionary response to corbyn, i reckon the pendulum is looking set to swing back the other way much sooner than might have happened otherwise.


*This*_ time we'll get a Labour Party we can really believe in!_


----------



## campanula (May 10, 2021)

Yep Wilf. I kinda like Zarah Sultana...but, like Rayner, she is unlikely to actually ever go against the Labour leadership. The way politics is played really  goes against any plausible bottom-up revolution...but then again, parliamentary politics is and has been a busted flush for an awfully long time. Activism is really better coming from niche interests from grassroot campaigns...and I do feel there is a fair bit of potential for community organising around specific issues such as housing, health etc.
And a lot more fun - thinking of Acorn actions in my daughter's constituency (the last one involved pinatas, singing  (Solidarity forever, solidarity foreeeeeeever) and a lot of theatrical mayhem.


----------



## Kaka Tim (May 11, 2021)

Looking at this purely in politicking terms - his bid to cut potential rival Angela Raynor down to size has ended up giving her a massive boost - hugely raising her public profile,  and highlighting her down to earth, authentic, northern womeness against his thumb up his arse stuffed suit suit image. Its brought a big chunk of the membership and PLP onto her side where many were previously ambivalent. She has a hugely expanded role, far more freedom to express her views and shes now perfectly placed to replace him. Well played kieth.


----------



## gosub (May 11, 2021)

Kaka Tim said:


> Looking at this purely in politicking terms - his bid to cut potential rival Angela Raynor down to size has ended up giving her a massive boost - hugely raising her public profile,  and highlighting her down to earth, authentic, northern womeness against his thumb up his arse stuffed suit suit image. Its brought a big chunk of the membership and PLP onto her side where many were previously ambivalent. She has a hugely expanded role, far more freedom to express her views and shes now perfectly placed to replace him. Well played kieth.



Agreed. Put her blip on radar, freed her from internal machinations and who wouldn't want to be  official Anti-Gove.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (May 11, 2021)

Kaka Tim said:


> Looking at this purely in politicking terms - his bid to cut potential rival Angela Raynor down to size has ended up giving her a massive boost - hugely raising her public profile,  and highlighting her down to earth, authentic, northern womeness against his thumb up his arse stuffed suit suit image. Its brought a big chunk of the membership and PLP onto her side where many were previously ambivalent. She has a hugely expanded role, far more freedom to express her views and shes now perfectly placed to replace him. Well played kieth.



It does lend credence to those who believe Kieth couldn’t organise a piss up in a brewery. His pick for Shadow Chancellor sees one vapid nonentity replace another vapid nonentity with the latter being slightly to the right. Other than that and, as you suggest, his cunning plan to demote Rayner by giving her a massively expanded remit and profile, it’s hard to discern anything else Kieth has achieved by the reshuffle and concomitant blood spilling.


----------



## The39thStep (May 11, 2021)

ska invita said:


> i know what you're saying but this is increasingly looking like the labour right burning up like a comet / last stand at the ok coral / going down in flames , choose your metaphor> if this is all a dialectic/reactionary response to corbyn, i reckon the pendulum is looking set to swing back the other way much sooner than might have happened otherwise.


Sounds more like a horoscope reading than any serious political analysis to be honest Ska.


----------



## gosub (May 11, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> It does lend credence to those who believe Kieth couldn’t organise a piss up in a brewery. His pick for Shadow Chancellor sees one vapid nonentity replace another vapid nonentity with the latter being slightly to the right. Other than that and, as you suggest, his cunning plan to demote Rayner by giving her a massively expanded remit and profile, it’s hard to discern anything else Kieth has achieved by the reshuffle and concomitant blood spilling.



Slightly on the right? Talk of immigration stoked riots, and trying to distance the party from those receiving benefits


----------



## hitmouse (May 11, 2021)

Cid said:


> What exactly is the chancellor of the duchy of Lancaster?


In passing, I hate the fact that "chancellor of the duchy of Lancaster" is still an actual job title. Ridiculous country.


----------



## TopCat (May 11, 2021)

gosub said:


> Slightly on the right? Talk of immigration stoked riots, and trying to distance the party from those receiving benefits


On the right of the Tory party.


----------



## glitch hiker (May 11, 2021)

State of this


----------



## brogdale (May 11, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> State of this


tbf to Starmer, he wins on _Is in good physical and mental health   _


----------



## Kaka Tim (May 11, 2021)

brogdale said:


> tbf to Starmer, he wins on _Is in good physical and mental health  _



not going by the post-hartlepoolmageddon interview. He looked like he was about to have heart attack.


----------



## lazythursday (May 11, 2021)

Not really wanting to defend Reeves, but in one of the books on Corbyn, it was stated that some on the left (Andrew Fisher I think) wanted to bring her on board because he  thought she'd been on a bit of a political journey leftwards since 2015. She has really ripped into outsourcing and dodgy public contracts. 

Whether that is true or not I was pretty appalled at her recent spirited and misleading defence of Kier's trip to the happy clapy homo hating church (which he apologised for the next day)


----------



## brogdale (May 11, 2021)

Kaka Tim said:


> not going by the post-hartlepoolmageddon interview. He looked like he was about to have heart attack.


He certainly didn't look in control, that's for sure.


----------



## JTG (May 11, 2021)

Kaka Tim said:


> Looking at this purely in politicking terms - his bid to cut potential rival Angela Raynor down to size has ended up giving her a massive boost - hugely raising her public profile,  and highlighting her down to earth, authentic, northern womeness against his thumb up his arse stuffed suit suit image. Its brought a big chunk of the membership and PLP onto her side where many were previously ambivalent. She has a hugely expanded role, far more freedom to express her views and shes now perfectly placed to replace him. Well played kieth.


He has bad politics but what we also have to remember is that he is really terribly advised


----------



## two sheds (May 11, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> State of this



Around a third believe that Johnson tells the truth  

I bet a similar number believe he's always been faithful to his partner.


----------



## The39thStep (May 11, 2021)

Joseph Roundtree's report from last on low income and voting makes interesting reading in light of the discussion on where next for Labour









						Low-income voters, the 2019 General Election and the future of British politics
					

This report looks at the effect of low-income voters on the 2019 UK General Election, and how their motivations and concerns affected their choices.




					www.jrf.org.uk


----------



## glitch hiker (May 11, 2021)

brogdale said:


> tbf to Starmer, he wins on _Is in good physical and mental health  _


It's not Top Trumps mate!


----------



## brogdale (May 11, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> It's not Top Trumps mate!


Starmer is the political equivalent of the tasslled wobbegong in Sharks Top Trumps!


----------



## glitch hiker (May 11, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Starmer is the political equivalent of the tasslled wobbegong in Sharks Top Trumps!


Starmer's the equivalent of the rule card that you get in packs. Superfluous and ignored


----------



## The39thStep (May 11, 2021)

Some interesting graphs here on deprivation v winning party constituencies 2001,2017 and 2021


----------



## brogdale (May 11, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Some interesting graphs here on deprivation v winning party constituencies 2001,2017 and 2021
> 
> View attachment 267701
> 
> View attachment 267702


I did a little 'research' on my constituency using that data (Carshalton & Wallington - 4th decile) and found that it's 5 neighbouring constituencies fall in the 1st, (least), 2nd, 3rd, 5th and 6th deciles of deprivation.


----------



## LDC (May 11, 2021)

Sorting out the problems Labour has isn't at all impossible, for sure to do it will take significant time and require work, but before they even get to that that they'll require a shift in priorities and overall outlook to enable it to happen.

The sticking points are I'm not sure The Party actually wants to do that, and even if they do, I'm not sure they're able to, either due to a lack of knowledge or being stuck in a cycle of failing to deal, and move beyond, their immediate short term problems.


----------



## andysays (May 11, 2021)

brogdale said:


> He certainly didn't look in control, that's for sure.


Confusion in his eyes that says it all...


----------



## steveseagull (May 11, 2021)

So Keith is now on a minus 48 person polling rating. With none of the shit Corbyn was dealing with. How can Keith be this bad?


----------



## steveseagull (May 11, 2021)

Mandelson plunges the knife in


----------



## Idris2002 (May 11, 2021)

That's what you get for trusting the likes of Mandelson.


----------



## Idris2002 (May 11, 2021)

.


----------



## steveseagull (May 11, 2021)

This is the start of the purge of the soft left.


----------



## MrSki (May 11, 2021)

Idris2002 said:


> That's what you get for trusting the likes of Mandelson.


This should have been enough to not touch him with the proverbial barge pole.


----------



## Orang Utan (May 11, 2021)

Why has that belt still got its price tag? Maybe it’s Epstein’s belt and Mandy’s modelling it and Epstein later went on to hang himself with it (and yes of course he hanged himself, conspiradivs)


----------



## Pickman's model (May 11, 2021)

steveseagull said:


> This is the start of the purge of the soft left.


More likely the surge of the pop left


----------



## Pickman's model (May 11, 2021)

steveseagull said:


> So Keith is now on a minus 48 person polling rating. With none of the shit Corbyn was dealing with. How can Keith be this bad?



He's not cut out to be labour leader


----------



## MrSki (May 11, 2021)

Well he looks pretty fucked. Time for Zarah Sultana to stand up.   

She is young but has done an impressive job so far & I would be more than happy if she found herself leading the Labour party.


----------



## elbows (May 11, 2021)

Apart from the badly unstuck quote the rest is not damning and includes shit like 





> “I have been round this course twice before,” he smiled. “The challenge for Keir is that he’s got to be both Kinnock and Blair rolled into one.”


----------



## MrSki (May 11, 2021)




----------



## TopCat (May 12, 2021)

Labour can be reformed if it looks outwards, not just inwards | Peter Mandelson
					

The party gains from its trade union links with working people, but it’s damaged by union leaders who use it as their political plaything, says former Hartlepool MP Peter Mandelson




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Badgers (May 12, 2021)

Mandelson can fuck the fuck off


----------



## Pickman's model (May 12, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Labour can be reformed if it looks outwards, not just inwards | Peter Mandelson
> 
> 
> The party gains from its trade union links with working people, but it’s damaged by union leaders who use it as their political plaything, says former Hartlepool MP Peter Mandelson
> ...


Surely all political parties are ruined by politicians who see their interests as superior to those of the people they affect to represent? Like say their personal relationships with foreign leaders and consequent involvement in illegal wars.


----------



## andysays (May 12, 2021)

Mandelson seems to be everywhere at the moment.

Is it simply the opportunity provided by the Hartlepool by election, or is there something else going on?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 12, 2021)

andysays said:


> Mandelson seems to be everywhere at the moment.
> 
> Is it simply the opportunity provided by the Hartlepool by election, or is there something else going on?


Watch out in case he starts moving in a mysterious way


----------



## ska invita (May 12, 2021)

andysays said:


> Mandelson seems to be everywhere at the moment.
> 
> Is it simply the opportunity provided by the Hartlepool by election, or is there something else going on?


yeah its interesting how certain figures get such airwave access
whats happening though is Starmer publicly brought Mandleson back in as an "advisor", so we can only presume Mandlesons media bombing and messaging is with direct approval from Starmer


----------



## andysays (May 12, 2021)

ska invita said:


> yeah its interesting how certain figures get such airwave access
> whats happening though is Starmer publicly brought Mandleson back in as an "advisor", so we can only presume Mandlesons media bombing and messaging is with direct approval from Starmer


Missed that but starts to make sense now...


----------



## ska invita (May 12, 2021)

ska invita said:


> yeah its interesting how certain figures get such airwave access
> whats happening though is Starmer publicly brought Mandleson back in as an "advisor", so we can only presume Mandlesons media bombing and messaging is with direct approval from Starmer


In February 2021








						Starmer calls in Mandelson to inject a dose of New Labour’s ‘winning mentality’
					

Sir Keir Starmer’s attempts to shift his party away from the far left have led him to the door of one of the founding members of New Labour: Lord Mandelson. Th




					www.thetimes.co.uk
				



*Starmer calls in Mandelson to inject a dose of New Labour’s ‘winning mentality’*
As his honeymoon ends with sniping at his shadow cabinet and questions over his political nous, the party leader is putting his faith in Tony Blair’s chief strategist


----------



## killer b (May 12, 2021)

ska invita said:


> whats happening though is Starmer publicly brought Mandleson back in as an "advisor", so we can only presume Mandlesons media bombing and messaging is with direct approval from Starmer


You probably can't trust Mandelson's word (lol) but he contradicts the reports of him being brought in as an advisor in that NS interview where he slags Starmer off. Reckons he's not spoken to him since 2018


----------



## Pickman's model (May 12, 2021)

ska invita said:


> In February 2021
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's gone well hasn't it


----------



## ska invita (May 12, 2021)

killer b said:


> You probably can't trust Mandelson's word (lol) but he contradicts the reports of him being brought in as an advisor in that NS interview where he slags Starmer off. Reckons he's not spoken to him since 2018


seems unlikely but might be true. That Times reports suggests:
Mandelson was brought back into the fold by Starmer’s chief of staff, Morgan McSweeney. The pair have struck up a close working relationship. Of McSweeney, Mandelson has said: “I don’t know who and how and when he was invented, but whoever it was ... They will find their place in heaven.”

...close enough to Starmer for him to do something about it if he doesnt like it


----------



## glitch hiker (May 12, 2021)

Seems obvious to me that he's been bought back as an adviser. Starmer is completely out of his depth. Sad that he chose to appeal to the likes of Mandelson however.


----------



## elbows (May 12, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> That's gone well hasn't it



There was a typo. It was supposed to read 'whining mentality'.


----------



## steveseagull (May 12, 2021)

Awkward. Makes you wonder why he did not go in hard on Johnson/Accuri



Plus anyone heard from Shippers since Saturday evening?


----------



## Wilf (May 12, 2021)

steveseagull said:


> Awkward. Makes you wonder why he did not go in hard on Johnson/Accuri
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Pointless aside: I used to work with Jenny Chapman's first husband. He's an outright cunt.

Edited for grammar, but also to see if I could think of anything stronger than _outright_. Can't do yet, but all suggestions gratefully received.


----------



## Shechemite (May 12, 2021)

Centrist cunt?


----------



## Wilf (May 12, 2021)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Centrist cunt?


_Purveyor of Fine Cuntitude._


----------



## stavros (May 12, 2021)




----------



## steveseagull (May 14, 2021)

It will go lower


----------



## glitch hiker (May 14, 2021)

stavros said:


> View attachment 267893


One bold stroke, labour's problems are done


----------



## killer b (May 14, 2021)

oof.


----------



## killer b (May 14, 2021)

It is a standard thing for modern Labour leaders' ratings to drop like a stone within months of them taking over - check this out for Miliband, regularly sinking to minus 50 - I don't even remember him being particularly bad?


----------



## brogdale (May 14, 2021)

killer b said:


> It is a standard thing for modern Labour leaders' ratings to drop like a stone within months of them taking over - check this out for Miliband, regularly sinking to minus 50 - I don't even remember him being particularly bad?
> 
> View attachment 268146


His father hated Britain, though.
Plenty who read that will have remembered it.


----------



## killer b (May 14, 2021)

that was published in October 2013, two thirds into the run of polls pictured (interestingly just before one of the lowest points)


----------



## brogdale (May 14, 2021)

killer b said:


> that was published in October 2013, two thirds into the run of polls pictured (interestingly just before one of the lowest points)


Where was the bacon sarnie atrocity in all of that?


----------



## killer b (May 14, 2021)

May 2014, shortly before he plunges to well under -50


----------



## brogdale (May 14, 2021)

killer b said:


> May 2014, shortly before he plunges to well under -50


Being semi-serious, the take-away point from the graphic appears to be the universal decline in approval ratings for all 3 party leaders in the first 12 months (May '10 to May '11) with Miliband's personal rating being the most volatile thereafter.


----------



## RileyOBlimey (May 14, 2021)

killer b said:


> It is a standard thing for modern Labour leaders' ratings to drop like a stone within months of them taking over - check this out for Miliband, regularly sinking to minus 50 - I don't even remember him being particularly bad?
> 
> View attachment 268146



This is a different question than the one above. Favourability (i.e. a personal liking) vs the subjective view on performance.


----------



## killer b (May 14, 2021)

RileyOBlimey said:


> This is a different question than the one above. Favourability (i.e. a personal liking) vs the subjective view on performance.


the subjective view on his performance has him on minus 48


----------



## ska invita (May 14, 2021)

New slogan: For The Middle and Maybe A Few


----------



## magneze (May 14, 2021)

Meaningless drivel.


----------



## Ground Elder (May 14, 2021)

They aim to halve child poverty? Unlucky for those in the wrong half


----------



## emanymton (May 14, 2021)

Ground Elder said:


> They aim to halve child poverty? Unlucky for those in the wrong half


They will probably just change the definition of poverty anyway.


----------



## Leighsw2 (May 14, 2021)

ska invita said:


> seems unlikely but might be true. That Times reports suggests:
> Mandelson was brought back into the fold by Starmer’s chief of staff, Morgan McSweeney. ....


I know that name. Wasn't he Steve Reed's chief of staff at Lambeth council? Lambeth Progress Labour now in charge of the national party? Christ!


----------



## ska invita (May 14, 2021)

Leighsw2 said:


> I know that name. Wasn't he Steve Reed's chief of staff at Lambeth council? Lambeth Progress Labour now in charge of the national party? Christ!


maybe 2006-2007?








						Morgan McSweeney - Wikispooks
					






					wikispooks.com


----------



## Leighsw2 (May 14, 2021)

Ah, of course, he was also at the LGA. In other words, the standard career path for ambitious Blairites.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 14, 2021)

ska invita said:


> maybe 2006-2007?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The career path of a serial shit


----------



## Leighsw2 (May 14, 2021)

Starmer's new video made me cry....


----------



## gosub (May 15, 2021)

killer b said:


> It is a standard thing for modern Labour leaders' ratings to drop like a stone within months of them taking over - check this out for Miliband, regularly sinking to minus 50 - I don't even remember him being particularly bad?
> 
> View attachment 268146



His bacon sandwich skills were non existent


----------



## Raheem (May 15, 2021)

killer b said:


> It is a standard thing for modern Labour leaders' ratings to drop like a stone within months of them taking over - check this out for Miliband, regularly sinking to minus 50 - I don't even remember him being particularly bad?


I remember him being like they'd given the work experience kid a go for a day.

Mind you, he more recently did one of the best PMQs performances in living memory. Either he bloomed too late or else he's fine so long as no-one expects anything.


----------



## Humberto (May 15, 2021)

Most of them, whatever party, are fucking horrible people though, don't forget. It's not that they get there to serve, getting there is an ego trip, an end in itself.


----------



## elbows (May 15, 2021)

ska invita said:


> New slogan: For The Middle and Maybe A Few
> 
> View attachment 268186



Oh how inspiring. Maybe I can subtley rework that:

We need to groan until the fake middle ground are out of power and the tops fall down. A plan to halve the long-term. Investment to deliver a fairer child poverty system. A more resilient plan, a greener shade of pale. A Kier for all seasons, a flag without reasons and a flag pole not a flagging poll. Just Biden our time. Look for the Blair necessities, the simple Blair necessities. Starm but fair. The ten con blandments set in stone, a hotline for the traffic cones.


----------



## Dogsauce (May 15, 2021)

killer b said:


> oof.
> 
> View attachment 268145
> View attachment 268144



How come Sturgeon, poster child for sensible social democracy on these Isles, who is seen to have had a ‘good war’ on Covid, is on minus 17, 33 below Johnson? Is there no hope for even the mildest of left politics with a relatable leader? We’re fucked aren’t we?


----------



## maomao (May 15, 2021)

Dogsauce said:


> How come Sturgeon, poster child for sensible social democracy on these Isles, who is seen to have had a ‘good war’ on Covid, is on minus 17, 33 below Johnson? Is there no hope for even the mildest of left politics with a relatable leader? We’re fucked aren’t we?


I'm pretty sure that's because they asked people from the whole of the UK. 

This refers to her Scotland only approval rating in January:









						Nicola Sturgeon only UK leader with positive rating in Scotland, poll shows
					

NICOLA Sturgeon is the only one of the four main UK party leaders to have a positive approval rating in Scotland, a new opinion poll has shown.




					www.thenational.scot
				




I doubt it's sunk that fast. I think it's just the result of asking English Tories what they think of her.


----------



## quiet guy (May 16, 2021)




----------



## two sheds (May 16, 2021)

"Sergeant Raynor about to apprehend a sneak thief"


----------



## Pickman's model (May 16, 2021)

quiet guy said:


> View attachment 268534


The new season of broadchurch


----------



## mauvais (May 16, 2021)

Narrowchurch.


----------



## ska invita (May 16, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Broadchurch


Irony


----------



## kabbes (May 16, 2021)

quiet guy said:


> View attachment 268534


Why are people unable to caption something without making it a question these days?


----------



## Puddy_Tat (May 16, 2021)

progress are having an online thing this afternoon addressed by lord mandelson







is one of the highlights so far (all on tweeter if you want to join in the fun)

i take it that 'instrumentality' here means they couldn't be bothered to record a different track for the b-side



their website is pretty lolsome as well.

like this page which has "For a politics that looks forward, not back" over a picture of a "stop brexit" rally


----------



## elbows (May 16, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> i take it that 'instrumentality' here means they couldn't be bothered to record a different track for the b-side



Arse trumpets.


----------



## ska invita (May 16, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> progress are having an online thing this afternoon addressed by lord mandelson
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Santino (May 16, 2021)

kabbes said:


> Why are people unable to caption something without making it a question these days?


Do you have a problem with that?


----------



## kabbes (May 16, 2021)

Santino said:


> Do you have a problem with that?


Do you think I should have?


----------



## brogdale (May 16, 2021)

ska invita said:


>





Behold, the Turd way.


----------



## Santino (May 16, 2021)

kabbes said:


> Do you think I should have?


Why did you bring it up?


----------



## kabbes (May 16, 2021)

Santino said:


> Why did you bring it up?


How else could I have dealt with it?


----------



## two sheds (May 16, 2021)

Could you two stop?


----------



## kabbes (May 16, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Could you two stop?


Stop what?


----------



## Orang Utan (May 16, 2021)

kabbes said:


> Stop what?


Being a dickhead clever clogs


----------



## two sheds (May 16, 2021)

Was that a question?


----------



## Smangus (May 16, 2021)

And lo , the age of the rising inflection was  began....


----------



## gosub (May 16, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> progress are having an online thing this afternoon addressed by lord mandelson
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Lord post-democracy Mandleson?


----------



## ruffneck23 (May 16, 2021)

.


----------



## two sheds (May 16, 2021)

Instrumentality - that's the way to reconnect with people. When I voted I was thinking 'there's not enough instrumentality in labour now'


----------



## Santino (May 16, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Could you two stop?


What's it got to do with you?


----------



## Calamity1971 (May 16, 2021)

Santino said:


> What's it got to do with you?


That two sheds is always sticking his beak in.

don't wind him up, he can make people swim with fishes.


----------



## two sheds (May 16, 2021)

Yeh you just watch it?


----------



## steveseagull (May 17, 2021)

Apparently the Progress thing was watched by about 55 people when Starmzy was speaking


----------



## hitmouse (May 17, 2021)

I like how the similar threads feature now means that this thread is always followed by "Demonstrate against Keir Starmer next Friday" from 2010.


----------



## DotCommunist (May 17, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Instrumentality - that's the way to reconnect with people. When I voted I was thinking 'there's not enough instrumentality in labour now'


they speak of nothing else on the doorsteps, except how much we all let david milliband down


----------



## two sheds (May 17, 2021)

Forensic instrumentality will be Kieth's new election buzzphrase.

Eta: I see one of the definitions instrumental is "of, relating to, or done with an instrument or tool" so perhaps the last one made it a good choice after all.


----------



## steveseagull (May 17, 2021)

Mandelson's speech got 28 viewers


----------



## two sheds (May 17, 2021)

Things can only get better


----------



## steveseagull (May 17, 2021)

State of this


----------



## Spandex (May 17, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Instrumentality - that's the way to reconnect with people. When I voted I was thinking 'there's not enough instrumentality in labour now'


Instrumentality is the perfect word for Starmerism - no one knows what it means.

I had to look it up: _something through which an end is achieved_. A legal term, of course. Still sums up Starmerism well; 'Labour must become a means to an end, a vehicle for change' - to what end and changing what remaining entirely unspecified. Labour: an empty vessel on the path to somewhere, just don't ask us where, cos we haven't got a clue either.

Electable!


----------



## brogdale (May 17, 2021)

Spandex said:


> Instrumentality is the perfect word for Starmerism - no one knows what it means.
> 
> I had to look it up: _something through which an end is achieved_. A legal term, of course. Still sums up Starmerism well; 'Labour must become a means to an end, a vehicle for change' - to what end and changing what remaining entirely unspecified. Labour: an empty vessel on the path to somewhere, just don't ask us where, cos we haven't got a clue either.
> 
> Electable!


As ever with the LP, the question has to be to who's desired ends is it instrumental?


----------



## Spandex (May 17, 2021)

brogdale said:


> As ever with the LP, the question has to be to who's desired ends is it instrumental?


If he wants anyone to vote for him maybe he could be clear about that. But since the answer for Starmer is probably 'maintaining the status quo, with a few nice things for the lower orders' maybe he's better off keeping quiet and continuing with soundbites so baffling they might confuse some people into voting for him.


----------



## tommers (May 17, 2021)

steveseagull said:


> State of this



That's some fucking nonsense.


----------



## hitmouse (May 17, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Forensic instrumentality


Forensic Instrumentality is one of my favourite tracks off Necroticism – Descanting the Insalubrious, right up there with Corporal Jigsore Quandary imo.


----------



## Raheem (May 17, 2021)

tommers said:


> That's some fucking nonsense.


When you don't actually want to say what it is that you believe in...


----------



## TopCat (May 17, 2021)

Mandelson certainly got himself in the papers this weekend. Painting himself and new labour as the future. Just got to get rid off progressive policy and get a new membership. Then fully divest of the working classes and dance into the distance holding Starmers hand.


----------



## quiet guy (May 17, 2021)

steveseagull said:


> State of this



I think they've appointed an AI as the new media lead because that's the only excuse for this absolute tosh.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 17, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Mandelson certainly got himself in the papers this weekend. Painting himself and new labour as the future. Just got to get rid off progressive policy and get a new membership. Then fully divest of the working classes and dance into the distance holding Starmers hand.


in the library i used to work in, my manager and i looked out for examples of inbuilt obsolescence in titles, eg recent advances in opthalmology, dentistry in the 1990s etc. and new labour is certainly one title which was always going to lose its lustre so now it's not even gilded, it looks really fucking rank


----------



## two sheds (May 17, 2021)

Raheem said:


> When you don't actually want to say what it is that you believe in...


... or don't actually know.


----------



## TopCat (May 17, 2021)

Capitalists who don’t use the n word but think it.


----------



## Leighsw2 (May 17, 2021)

Difficult to disagree with this take.....


----------



## glitch hiker (May 17, 2021)

Leighsw2 said:


> Difficult to disagree with this take.....



Further... (and because it's funny to mock this nonsense)


----------



## killer b (May 17, 2021)

they are shit numbers, but they were addressing a conference of centrist policy wonks, not _the nation_.


----------



## Mr Moose (May 17, 2021)

Spandex said:


> Instrumentality is the perfect word for Starmerism - no one knows what it means.
> 
> I had to look it up: _something through which an end is achieved_. A legal term, of course. Still sums up Starmerism well; 'Labour must become a means to an end, a vehicle for change' - to what end and changing what remaining entirely unspecified. Labour: an empty vessel on the path to somewhere, just don't ask us where, cos we haven't got a clue either.
> 
> Electable!



There’s a slightly different, Frankfurt School, definition of instrumentalism, which iirc is about subjugating good stuff we luv like truth and reason as secondary to getting stuff done, with not so hilarious consequences.


----------



## hitmouse (May 17, 2021)

Yeah, I think of it as having something to do with treating people as a means to an end rather than having inherent value in themselves, making it an odd word to associate yourself with.


----------



## maomao (May 17, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> Further... (and because it's funny to mock this nonsense)



280 quid not 290. Probably less as some would have free tickets or be other speakers etc.


----------



## brogdale (May 17, 2021)

killer b said:


> they were addressing a conference of centrist policy wonks, not _the nation_.


Starmer's LP, in a nutshell.


----------



## kabbes (May 18, 2021)

killer b said:


> they are shit numbers, but they were addressing a conference of centrist policy wonks, not _the nation_.


It really doesn’t matter, because the numbers are so shit regardless.  How many used to turn up in person when Corbyn did a party speech?  What’s the potential audience size of people interested enough in politics in principle to consider watching big names talk about it?  God, my company gets more than 56 people choosing to tune in to listen to an underwriter talk about his/her product line in its fortnightly open learning sessions.  There’s no way to be hyperbolic about just how bad it is to get just 56 people interested in what you have to say out of the _whole country_.


----------



## killer b (May 18, 2021)

It wasn't a party speech that everyone in the country was invited to though, it was a conference to mark the amalgamation of two centrist think tanks. I have no idea how big the guest list was, and nor do you. Either way the numbers are terrible, but it's comparing apples with oranges to compare it with an open meeting or rally that anyone can rock up to.


----------



## lazythursday (May 18, 2021)

I think it was pretty easy to get an invite as at least a couple of people of that 56 were left wing activists observing proceedings and reporting on twitter.


----------



## belboid (May 18, 2021)

killer b said:


> It wasn't a party speech that everyone in the country was invited to though, it was a conference to mark the amalgamation of two centrist think tanks. I have no idea how big the guest list was, and nor do you. Either way the numbers are terrible, but it's comparing apples with oranges to compare it with an open meeting or rally that anyone can rock up to.


I thought it was more about a comparison about whom they thought it was relevant to speak to.


----------



## kabbes (May 18, 2021)

killer b said:


> It wasn't a party speech that everyone in the country was invited to though, it was a conference to mark the amalgamation of two centrist think tanks. I have no idea how big the guest list was, and nor do you. Either way the numbers are terrible, but it's comparing apples with oranges to compare it with an open meeting or rally that anyone can rock up to.


They either only invited double-digits of people (including, as noted, some who actually are quite antagonistic) to hear the Big Names give policy speeches (and, if so, why?) or they invited a lot more people and only 56 turned up, half of whom didn’t hang around for more than the headliner.  Either way, it’s poor.


----------



## brogdale (May 18, 2021)

kabbes said:


> They either only invited double-digits of people (including, as noted, some who actually are quite antagonistic) to hear the Big Names give policy speeches (and, if so, why?) or they invited a lot more people and only 56 turned up, half of whom didn’t hang around for more than the headliner.  Either way, it’s poor.


And just goes to show that the right in the party have had no connect with members/activists for many years; it's just that all those hundreds of millions from Sainsbury and a welcoming billionaire press amplify the impression that they are Labour.


----------



## killer b (May 18, 2021)

It certainly says something about what a minority current the Progress lot are in the party now, that's for sure. Not that it matters, they're still in charge.


----------



## steveseagull (May 18, 2021)

It was pretty easy to get an invite. I think you originally had to pay 25 quid and then it was reduced to 5 quid of something because no one could be arsed.

Meanwhile, Kieth's advisors must really really hate him


----------



## Chilli.s (May 18, 2021)

More like a fly on a turd documentary


----------



## brogdale (May 18, 2021)

steveseagull said:


> It was pretty easy to get an invite. I think you originally had to pay 25 quid and then it was reduced to 5 quid of something because no one could be arsed.
> 
> Meanwhile, Kieth's advisors must really really hate him


----------



## Kaka Tim (May 18, 2021)

fuck me - its worse than the CHUK fuckwits. Up there with owen smiths ice cream offensive.


----------



## Wilf (May 18, 2021)

killer b said:


> It wasn't a party speech that everyone in the country was invited to though, it was *a conference to mark the amalgamation of two centrist think tanks. *I have no idea how big the guest list was, and nor do you. Either way the numbers are terrible, but it's comparing apples with oranges to compare it with an open meeting or rally that anyone can rock up to.


_And I've missed it? Darn!   _

Arise ye starvelings from your instrumentality!


----------



## Wilf (May 18, 2021)

_Lord Mandelson and Sir Kieth Starmer lead Labour's efforts to reconnect with working class voters.   _


----------



## Wilf (May 18, 2021)

_Former EU Trade Commissioner gives us his thoughts on why 70% leave voting Hartlepool elected a tory MP._


----------



## SpookyFrank (May 18, 2021)

steveseagull said:


> It was pretty easy to get an invite. I think you originally had to pay 25 quid and then it was reduced to 5 quid of something because no one could be arsed.
> 
> Meanwhile, Kieth's advisors must really really hate him




Fucking hell how many nails can one coffin take?


----------



## Wilf (May 18, 2021)

Documentary working title; _The Thin of It._


----------



## Sprocket. (May 18, 2021)

Wilf said:


> Documentary working title; _The Thin of It._


The book; _The Road to Smitten Kier._


----------



## brogdale (May 18, 2021)

_Adolf Corbyn: My Part in his Downfall_


----------



## hitmouse (May 18, 2021)

steveseagull said:


> It was pretty easy to get an invite. I think you originally had to pay 25 quid and then it was reduced to 5 quid of something because no one could be arsed.
> 
> Meanwhile, Kieth's advisors must really really hate him


----------



## steveseagull (May 18, 2021)

he is going to end up making David Brent look cool, isn't he.


----------



## splonkydoo (May 18, 2021)

Wilf said:


> Documentary working title; _The Thin of It._



_The Quisling & The Quiff_


----------



## Wilf (May 18, 2021)

Seem to remember Owen Smith going on about drinking so many beers he lost track of the football scores ...

_"In the first episode, we see sir kieth and his spods getting so mashed on Kaliber and baked crisps that they misread the text updates and think England have won the European Championship.  Sir kieth does the dance"._


----------



## two sheds (May 18, 2021)

"_In episode two we see activists open their veins in the bath as Sir Kieth reads out the new Labour election manifesto. _"


----------



## steveseagull (May 18, 2021)

Wilf said:


> Seem to remember Owen Smith going on about drinking so many beers he lost track of the football scores ...
> 
> _"In the first episode, we see sir kieth and his spods getting so mashed on Kaliber and baked crisps that they misread the text updates and think England have won the European Championship.  Sir kieth does the dance"._


Owen Smith spent a large amount of time discussing the size of his cock. Perhaps Kieth will go down that route.


----------



## Wilf (May 18, 2021)

steveseagull said:


> Owen Smith spent a large amount of time discussing the size of his cock. Perhaps Kieth will go down that route.


... forensically. 

_'After the second episode aired, sir kieth was forced to apologise for a series of off colour remarks about Brexit specific powers of derogation. He put it down to bantz and said the people he nearly talked to on the Hartlepool seafront would understand'._


----------



## TopCat (May 18, 2021)

Wilf said:


> Documentary working title; _The Thin of It._


Quality.


----------



## brogdale (May 18, 2021)

Today's...


----------



## steveseagull (May 18, 2021)

> “_We know we have shared values, but we need to explore exactly what they are_.” – Henna Shah
> “_Moving forward in life really is most people’s focus_.” – Peter Kyle
> “_We are very sincere about what we believe in.  But we don’t pay sufficient scrutiny to why we’re losing.  We too often define what Labour isn’t, not what it is_.” – Jon Cruddas
> “_We need to sell a positive vision of Britain’s future rooted in the reality that people can accept.  We need to get this clarity right centrally_.” – Peter Kyle
> ...











						Progressive Britain conference May 2021
					

On Sunday (May 16th 2021) Keir Starmer and his merry band gathered at a (virtual) conference under the reactivated Progress banner to inelucidate what Labour doesn’t stand for and what its pl…




					ducksoap.wordpress.com


----------



## Pickman's model (May 18, 2021)

steveseagull said:


> “_We know we have shared values, but we need to explore exactly what they are_.” – Henna Shah
> “_Moving forward in life really is most people’s focus_.” – Peter Kyle
> “_We are very sincere about what we believe in.  But we don’t pay sufficient scrutiny to why we’re losing.  We too often define what Labour isn’t, not what it is_.” – Jon Cruddas
> “_We need to sell a positive vision of Britain’s future rooted in the reality that people can accept.  We need to get this clarity right centrally_.” – Peter Kyle
> ...


Um aspirational is a real word. There's so much shit about them as you show in the remainder of your post that there's no need to make up stuff to damn them for


----------



## Pickman's model (May 18, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Today's...



They should ask about Palmerston and campbell-bannerman both of whom would tho dead doubtless score higher than starmer


----------



## steveseagull (May 18, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Um aspirational is a real word. There's so much shit about them as you show in the remainder of your post that there's no need to make up stuff to damn them for



Strangely enough, I did not write it. Hence the link to the blog post that I did not write.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 18, 2021)

steveseagull said:


> Strangely enough, I did not write it. Hence the link to the blog post that I did not write.


Yeh. You might use the quote function in future to make it plain they're not your words. But if you continue in the same vein why not simply edit out such infelicities?


----------



## steveseagull (May 18, 2021)

Not something I have the desire to get into a tedious debate about with you to be honest but as a gesture of good will, I have put it into quotes.


----------



## quiet guy (May 18, 2021)

steveseagull said:


> It was pretty easy to get an invite. I think you originally had to pay 25 quid and then it was reduced to 5 quid of something because no one could be arsed.
> 
> Meanwhile, Kieth's advisors must really really hate him



This has the makings to be the biggest car crash in TV history.


----------



## TopCat (May 18, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh. You might use the quote function in future to make it plain they're not your words. But if you continue in the same vein why not simply edit out such infelicities?


Infelicities? 
hehehe. Made me chuckle. Xx


----------



## PR1Berske (May 18, 2021)

quiet guy said:


> This has the makings to be the biggest car crash in TV history.


If he's as unknown and unliked as it appears, a general audience isn't going to be convinced by a fly on the wall documentary. He won't pass the "Gogglebox test" for sure.


----------



## Leighsw2 (May 18, 2021)

killer b said:


> It wasn't a party speech that everyone in the country was invited to though, it was a conference to mark the amalgamation of two centrist think tanks. I have no idea how big the guest list was, and nor do you. Either way the numbers are terrible, but it's comparing apples with oranges to compare it with an open meeting or rally that anyone can rock up to.


Fair point, though we know what those centrist open meetings or rallies 'that anyone can rock up to' look like:



(Anyone remember Owen Smith's notorious 'ice-cream rally' in Liverpool during his failed leadership bid in 2016?)


----------



## Leighsw2 (May 18, 2021)

Kaka Tim said:


> fuck me - its worse than the CHUK fuckwits. Up there with owen smiths ice cream offensive.


Ah, you beat me to it!


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (May 18, 2021)

Not quite up there with the mighty Argh! launch though. That one still makes me laugh.


----------



## Wilf (May 18, 2021)

Sir Kieth's major achievements:

1. some forensic thing or other.
2. _nearly _drinking some beer.
3. allowing John Major to move up one place in the list of Most Charismatic Party Leaders.


----------



## two sheds (May 18, 2021)

4. instrumentality 

you forgot that


----------



## Wilf (May 18, 2021)

two sheds said:


> 4. instrumentality
> 
> you forgot that


Instrumentality underpins everything. _Every. Thing._


----------



## Pickman's model (May 18, 2021)

quiet guy said:


> This has the makings to be the biggest car crash in TV history.


It'll be like tiger king only weirder


----------



## two sheds (May 18, 2021)

my sympathy's with the fly


----------



## JTG (May 18, 2021)

steveseagull said:


> It was pretty easy to get an invite. I think you originally had to pay 25 quid and then it was reduced to 5 quid of something because no one could be arsed.
> 
> Meanwhile, Kieth's advisors must really really hate him


----------



## Kaka Tim (May 18, 2021)

do they have any idea how fucking pathetic they are? It absolutely is the same shit the same people served up with owen smith and aarggh eagle . And who came up with the Ed Stone and the CHUCK fucks. What is wrong with them? How many times do you have to pull the same lever resulting in a bucket of humiliation being pored over your head before you twig that it is not ever going to work?


----------



## steveseagull (May 18, 2021)

Kaka Tim said:


> do they have any idea how fucking pathetic they are? It absolutely is the same shit the same people served up with owen smith and aarggh eagle . And who came up with the Ed Stone and the CHUCK fucks. What is wrong with them? How many times do you have to pull the same lever resulting in a bucket of humiliation being pored over your head before you twig that it is not ever going to work?


They must have entire department working on humiliating naff and out of touch cringe ideas. Where do they get these people from?


----------



## two sheds (May 18, 2021)




----------



## quiet guy (May 18, 2021)

Kieth's face needs photoshopping onto that because at this rate he'll only have that as a possible choice for future employment.


----------



## Raheem (May 18, 2021)

steveseagull said:


> They must have entire department working on humiliating naff and out of touch cringe ideas. Where do they get these people from?


Not to defend them but, even if they're geniuses, any proposal they make which fails to completely misdiagnose the problem is going to get spiked.


----------



## Leighsw2 (May 18, 2021)

Kaka Tim said:


> do they have any idea how fucking pathetic they are? It absolutely is the same shit the same people served up with owen smith and aarggh eagle .....


Ah, Angela Eagle. Where is she now? Lest we forget....

Launching a leadership bid, or a perfume? Don't forget, these are the _only_ people in the Labour Party who know how to win elections!


----------



## ska invita (May 19, 2021)

Leighsw2 said:


> Ah, Angela Eagle. Where is she now? Lest we forget....
> View attachment 269065
> Launching a leadership bid, or a perfume? Don't forget, these are the _only_ people in the Labour Party who know how to win elections!


#SmellTheEagle


----------



## hitmouse (May 19, 2021)

Have we had this yet?








						‘It’s confidential’: Shadow minister refuses to say what Labour stands for
					

Jonathan Ashworth says discussions have taken place at shadow cabinet level but that they are ‘confidential’




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## brogdale (May 19, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Have we had this yet?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I saw the full clip and, tbf to the vacuous slime ball, he did go on to say that the LP were in favour of both motherhood and apple pie.


----------



## steveseagull (May 20, 2021)

Diane Abbott sticking the boot into Keith's twitching festering political corpse.

Seems the SCG are rallying behind Andy Burnham. Keith and Evans have ripped the rule book up so I don't think it matters whether he is an MP or not.

I guess Burnham would be a load better than the current bunch of amateur halfwits but I am not sure he is the answer.









						Andy Burnham: unlikely heir to the left's leadership ambitions? | Diane Abbott
					

Greater Manchester’s mayor has come a long way from his past as an identikit New Labour apparatchik, says Labour MP Diane Abbott




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## two sheds (May 20, 2021)

Even stronger language elsewhere:  ​








						Losing byelection would be ‘curtains’ for Keir Starmer, says Diane Abbott
					

Labour left wing would back leadership run by Andy Burnham if party loses Batley and Spen, Corbyn ally says




					www.theguardian.com
				



​

> Losing byelection would be ‘curtains’ for Keir Starmer, says Diane Abbott





> *Labour left wing would back leadership run by Andy Burnham if party loses Batley and Spen, Corbyn ally says*


----------



## Raheem (May 20, 2021)

Problem with that is, to get Burnham in as leader, Labour would have to win a by-election somewhere sometime.


----------



## Chz (May 20, 2021)

If the Labour Left has to rely on Diane Abbott, they're fucked. 
Also, I don't recall her questioning the leadership after Copeland so it's hardly an unbiased view of the state of things.


----------



## MickiQ (May 20, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Problem with that is, to get Burnham in as leader, Labour would have to win a by-election somewhere sometime.


There's also the problem of they kind of need Starmer's support as well to even get to that stage. I imagine some going into Starmer and saying "Sorry mate, nothing personal but we've decided you're useless and want to get Andy back into Parliament so he can replace you"
I can't imagine him or his supporters being enthusiastic about that as an idea.


----------



## Chz (May 20, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> There's also the problem of they kind of need Starmer's support as well to even get to that stage. I imagine some going into Starmer and saying "Sorry mate, nothing personal but we've decided you're useless and want to get Andy back into Parliament so he can replace you"
> I can't imagine him or his supporters being enthusiastic about that as an idea.


If he can go low enough in the polls - and I think he's perfectly capable of it - he may be convinced to do it. SKS is clearly not in control.


----------



## Wilf (May 20, 2021)

Can't remember who exactly, but there have been occasions where elderly MPs have agreed to give up their seats for a move to the house of lords trough (perhaps Tories?).  Looks like Burnham very much wants to be leader, but it's not clear what the ideal route for him is.  If Labour lose Batley and Spen - which I'm not convinced they will - it gets pretty close to a 'get Burnham at all costs' scenario I'd have thought.  I mean from Labour's point of view, not mine.  

Hard to tell how Burnham would be as leader. He'd have a fair wind behind him in the party and he'd probably perform well against Johnson.  A lot less dull then kieth, but that's not saying much at all.  Politically, a return to something like an Ed Miliband position on some mythical left-right Labour continuum. But exciting? New ideas?  Nope, not at all.  Labour need to get rid of kieth, he looks like clubbed seal at the moment (and the boring clubbed seal that nobody cares about because he's boring).  But Burnham ain't the answer, Labour's problems run a lot deeper.


----------



## elbows (May 20, 2021)

Are parties even that sincere in their quest to find a winning candidate if they still think they are in the middle of their wilderness years? Or perhaps more to the point, dont future candidates have a close eye on that sort of timing and prefer to wait until the opportunities seem more likely to result in victory?

Is his mayoral term 3 years? And will his original timing calculations already have been affected by the extra years delay to the mayoral election cycle caused by the pandemic?


----------



## lazythursday (May 20, 2021)

Burnham is not well liked by party apparatchiks or the right of the party by all accounts so I doubt they're going to create an easy smooth route for him back to Westminster, when they can instead fantasise about Yvette or Rachel Reeves etc.


----------



## mauvais (May 20, 2021)

It's been said before but Burnham wasn't very good at politicking the first time around, that's why he lost. I think he probably has got a lot better at it since becoming GM Mayor but equally the King of the North bit is not obviously transferable to, well, anywhere that isn't the north. It's much easier to fight that particular corner than it is to lead the whole party.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 20, 2021)

mauvais said:


> It's been said before but Burnham wasn't very good at politicking the first time around, that's why he lost. I think he probably has got a lot better at it since becoming GM Mayor but equally the King of the North bit is not obviously transferable to, well, anywhere that isn't the north. It's much easier to fight that particular corner than it is to lead the whole party.


We all know what happened to Robb stark, the king in the north.


----------



## Leighsw2 (May 20, 2021)

He ran leadership campaigns in 2010 and 2015 and they were both hopeless. Can anyone really change that much?


----------



## ska invita (May 20, 2021)

his politics aside (which i gather are shit) he's also just a bit...miserable





















heres one of him smiling





i dont mind that if its matched with a serious attitude to get some real shit done, but I gather thats not really him either
seems like replacing one mopey middle manager facing a midlife crisis with another


----------



## Wilf (May 20, 2021)

Kieth's got that look of shitting desperation in his eyes every time he's asked a question.  Suspect Burnham wouldn't be quite as desperate, but those are the fine margins that Labour might well be looking for.  Even a week ago I'd have said there was no possibility starmer will be replaced before the 2024 defeat, largely because parties normally let them go through the full cycle of false optimism through to defeat.  But the way he's looked in a couple of interviews, well, he actually looks _pathetic_.  I've no idea how and when he goes and he may last till 2024, but I'm guessing this year's conference will be interesting.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (May 20, 2021)

Wilf said:


> Suspect Burnham wouldn't be quite as desperate, but those are the fine margins that Labour might well be looking for.



hmm.

"vote labour, slightly less shit than the tories"

"vote for burnham, slightly less shit than starmer"



(not that i'm suggesting that's what you're advocating.  just meh at the options)


----------



## Orang Utan (May 20, 2021)

This shit is pathetic. It’s not a beauty contest. Selective photos of politicians looking glum. Cmon


----------



## ska invita (May 20, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> This shit is pathetic. It’s not a beauty contest. Selective photos of politicians looking glum. Cmon





ska invita said:


> i dont mind that if its matched with a serious attitude to get some real shit done, but I gather thats not really him either
> seems like replacing one mopey middle manager facing a midlife crisis with another


----------



## Puddy_Tat (May 20, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> This shit is pathetic. It’s not a beauty contest. Selective photos of politicians looking glum. Cmon



no.  need to see if he looks like a dork eating a bacon sandwich


----------



## Humberto (May 20, 2021)

What about the other brother?


----------



## Funky_monks (May 21, 2021)

ska invita said:


> his politics aside (which i gather are shit) he's also just a bit...miserable
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Manchester, so much to answer for.


----------



## Shechemite (May 21, 2021)

ska invita said:


> his politics aside (which i gather are shit) he's also just a bit...miserable
> 
> 
> 
> ...



tbf to burnham he does recognise that one of starmers failings is to not prioritise social care


----------



## Shechemite (May 21, 2021)

This makes sense to me.

“Start with social care, a commitment to provide it on NHS terms and with pay parity for the care workforce with NHS staff. This brings me to a point about Labour’s approach to identity politics. I think we can do more to advance fair pay for women with a unifying message about social care wages than by talking about women’s pay in abstract and leaving low-paid men feeling no one speaks for them.”


----------



## chilango (May 21, 2021)

View attachment reface-2021-05-21-06-48-11.mp4


----------



## JTG (May 21, 2021)

I mean, the only reason Burnham appears better now is because he left Parliament and doesn't have to pander to quote as much reactionary nonsense. They're still having council tax raised in Manchester in order to put police in schools mind


----------



## kabbes (May 21, 2021)

Whatever happened to that massive advocate of Starmer for leader in urban75, fakeplasticgirl?  And it seems that the @ doesn’t work either; a name change?  Come and defend your man!


----------



## Smokeandsteam (May 21, 2021)

JTG said:


> I mean, the only reason Burnham appears better now is because he left Parliament and doesn't have to pander to quote as much reactionary nonsense. They're still having council tax raised in Manchester in order to put police in schools mind



I keep wondering if there are two Andy Burnham’s. One is the professional northerner who ran a flaccid campaign when Corbyn was elected and was a bang average new Labour Minister. The other being the new darling of the Twitter left.


----------



## killer b (May 21, 2021)

kabbes said:


> Whatever happened to that massive advocate of Starmer for leader in urban75, fakeplasticgirl?  And it seems that the @ doesn’t work either; a name change?  Come and defend your man!


no name change, but she hasn't posted in a year. dunno why she can't be tagged though


----------



## magneze (May 21, 2021)

Humberto said:


> What about the other brother?


David Miliband’s charity offers unpaid internships but he took home over £700,000
🤔


----------



## Pickman's model (May 21, 2021)

As you can see killer b kabbes you can tag fakeplasticgirl


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (May 21, 2021)

magneze said:


> David Miliband’s charity offers unpaid internships but he took home over £700,000
> 🤔


He'd need at least that if he became PM, what with redecorating no 10, replacing all the wallpaper, carpets and furniture.


----------



## JTG (May 21, 2021)

magneze said:


> David Miliband’s charity offers unpaid internships but he took home over £700,000
> 🤔


Definitely think they should go for the guy who approved torture flights


----------



## ska invita (May 21, 2021)

JTG said:


> Definitely think they should go for the guy who approved torture flights


Could be a vote winner tbf


----------



## magneze (May 21, 2021)

Never mind the other brother, they should go for the other Blair.


----------



## PR1Berske (May 21, 2021)

Wilf said:


> Can't remember who exactly, but there have been occasions where elderly MPs have agreed to give up their seats for a move to the house of lords trough (perhaps Tories?).  Looks like Burnham very much wants to be leader, but it's not clear what the ideal route for him is.  If Labour lose Batley and Spen - which I'm not convinced they will - it gets pretty close to a 'get Burnham at all costs' scenario I'd have thought.  I mean from Labour's point of view, not mine.
> 
> Hard to tell how Burnham would be as leader. He'd have a fair wind behind him in the party and he'd probably perform well against Johnson.  A lot less dull then kieth, but that's not saying much at all.  Politically, a return to something like an Ed Miliband position on some mythical left-right Labour continuum. But exciting? New ideas?  Nope, not at all.  Labour need to get rid of kieth, he looks like clubbed seal at the moment (and the boring clubbed seal that nobody cares about because he's boring).  But Burnham ain't the answer, Labour's problems run a lot deeper.



In politics, "he who wields the sword rarely wears the crown".


----------



## MickiQ (May 21, 2021)

Wilf said:


> Kieth's got that look of shitting desperation in his eyes every time he's asked a question.  Suspect Burnham wouldn't be quite as desperate, but those are the fine margins that Labour might well be looking for.  Even a week ago I'd have said there was no possibility starmer will be replaced before the 2024 defeat, largely because parties normally let them go through the full cycle of false optimism through to defeat.  But the way he's looked in a couple of interviews, well, he actually looks _pathetic_.  I've no idea how and when he goes and he may last till 2024, but I'm guessing this year's conference will be interesting.


Blair actually won Sedgefield for the first time in 1983 (as did  Corbyn) the same year as the Labour Party also got a massive arse kicking. There were 26 new Labour MP's elected in 2019 so the way things are going it wouldn't surprise me if history isn't repeating itself and the next Labour PM is one of them.


----------



## ska invita (May 21, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> Blair actually won Sedgefield for the first time in 1983 (as did  Corbyn) the same year as the Labour Party also got a massive arse kicking. There were 26 new Labour MP's elected in 2019 so the way things are going it wouldn't surprise me if history isn't repeating itself and the next Labour PM is one of them.


I think this is that list of 26 with short bio 








						Labour gained just one seat – but many more fresh faces – LabourList
					

Labour gained just one seat at the 2019 general election – Putney, in London – but we can expect to see many fresh faces in…




					labourlist.org


----------



## Thaw (May 21, 2021)

2 of the 26 in court this summer so you can probably rule them out


----------



## Leighsw2 (May 21, 2021)

JTG said:


> Definitely think they should go for the guy who approved torture flights


For a party previously led by a war criminal, I guess that would be consistent.


----------



## JTG (May 21, 2021)

Leighsw2 said:


> For a party previously led by a war criminal, I guess that would be consistent.


Any other option would be an extraordinary rendition


----------



## Humberto (May 21, 2021)

I think they are all much the same in that regard once they get into No.10/the Cabinet. Torture is dreadful, so is war itself, as well as homelessness, poverty etc but people still vote for the fuckers. I'm not saying that point should be glossed over, I honestly don't know the ins and outs of it, but the party doesn't seem to have a lot of options. In terms of Labour's future, I worry about a tipping point where we are stuck with the Tories for at least another generation. David Milliband could be the guy to get the party's house in order, win back lost votes and take it from there. Is he my hero? No! But this current lot in government seem to have given up any pretence that they honour the office that they were elected to, and the lines between selfish business interests and their elected office are murky and blurred indeed. Meanwhile Labour have lost the plot, and offer nothing really. Whether Milliband would be interested in getting involved again I don't know. Speculation and reckons isn't it?


----------



## RileyOBlimey (May 21, 2021)

David Milliband Confucius right off.


----------



## RileyOBlimey (May 21, 2021)

RileyOBlimey said:


> David Milliband Confucius right off.


Fucking spellcheck


----------



## NoXion (May 21, 2021)

[insert joke here about filial piety]


----------



## JTG (May 21, 2021)

"We have to get rid of these so we need the torture guy back" isn't really selling it to me. But then I'm not interested in the red team winning just for the sake of it tbh


----------



## Elpenor (May 21, 2021)

ska invita said:


> his politics aside (which i gather are shit) he's also just a bit...miserable
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Burnham = hair of a Lego man


----------



## glitch hiker (May 21, 2021)

RileyOBlimey said:


> Fucking spellcheck


I _think_ you mean Confucius spellcheck


----------



## hitmouse (May 22, 2021)

The Times is up Keir Starmer, or something... do we have a "why the Times is going down the pan" or "The Times' time is up" thread?








						A monster battle, Keir Kong versus Corbzilla
					

It is rumoured that the Labour Party has invited a television crew into its innermost circle to film a fly-on-the-wall documentary about Keir Starmer, in the ho




					www.thetimes.co.uk


----------



## teqniq (May 22, 2021)

Meanwhile.....


----------



## lazythursday (May 22, 2021)

Burnham at least has some basic political skills and comes across well on camera. He has the ability to talk to voters like he's an actual human being not some alien SW1 lifeform. I don't trust him for a second but he'd at least put a bit of fight back in the party. And as for why he was so shit in the past - he's clearly been on a political learning curve since 2015. He is a lot more impressive now as a politician. That isn't to say I think he's moved leftwards particularly, he's clearly just an opportunist, but I've seen him compared to Biden in terms of a centrist politican that could work with the left rather than prioritising its utter destruction. But I think it's more likely he will join David Miliband in the club of almost-leaders and miss the boat.


----------



## andysays (May 22, 2021)

teqniq said:


> Meanwhile.....



Those figures are clearly all Corbyn's fault for not turning his vaccination into a photo opportunity in the same way Johnson and Starmer did.

Is there no end to the man's evil...


----------



## TopCat (May 23, 2021)

Burnham is gormless.


----------



## planetgeli (May 23, 2021)

Anger as Starmer joins calls to restrict access to Primrose Hill
					

Campaigners say Labour leader should not follow ‘Tory agenda’ over night curfews at north London park




					www.theguardian.com
				




Going for the all essential gated community vote I see.

Wanker.


----------



## glitch hiker (May 23, 2021)

planetgeli said:


> Anger as Starmer joins calls to restrict access to Primrose Hill
> 
> 
> Campaigners say Labour leader should not follow ‘Tory agenda’ over night curfews at north London park
> ...


Whoever is advising him is either trolling him or us. I can't decide.

This is such a pathetic decision to attach your name to and it can only make you look bad, even if only among a tiny community. I can't see this being something that will galvanise support. Like visiting Theresa's bigot church.

Still at least he's more electable


----------



## DotCommunist (May 23, 2021)

its unthinking authoritarianism, this is who he is. The rabble there to be constrained, the wealthy homeowners to be placated. Thats his instincts.


----------



## brogdale (May 25, 2021)

Someone digging back to a 2011 publication to glean an insight into the mind-set of team Starmer:


----------



## BillRiver (May 25, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Someone digging back to a 2011 publication to glean an insight into the mind-set of team Starmer:




OMG that's a description of me in my twenties! I ticked every box there, back in the day. Wasn't in the Labour Party though.


----------



## two sheds (May 25, 2021)

I like 'lefty' being on the list. Wouldn't want them in labour party


----------



## Elpenor (May 25, 2021)

BillRiver said:


> OMG that's a description of me in my twenties! I ticked every box there, back in the day. Wasn't in the Labour Party though.


House!


----------



## JTG (May 25, 2021)

That list makes Labour sound way cooler than it actually is


----------



## steveseagull (May 25, 2021)

That list is classic Briefcase Labour.


----------



## belboid (May 25, 2021)

Even for ten years ago those terms seem rather outdated.  Dungarees, pot, even CND.  Almost looks as if it were c&p’d straight from the eighties


----------



## brogdale (May 25, 2021)

belboid said:


> Even for ten years ago those terms seem rather outdated.  Dungarees, pot, even CND.  Almost looks as if it were c&p’d straight from the eighties


More like what 90's corporate Labour types thought members were like in the 80's?


----------



## JTG (May 25, 2021)

belboid said:


> Even for ten years ago those terms seem rather outdated.  Dungarees, pot, even CND.  Almost looks as if it were c&p’d straight from the eighties


tbf the Labour right are still petrified of Militant from what I can tell of the last five years.


----------



## killer b (May 25, 2021)

belboid said:


> Even for ten years ago those terms seem rather outdated.  Dungarees, pot, even CND.  Almost looks as if it were c&p’d straight from the eighties


apparently the book is discussing the Labour Party of the 1980s, not the 2010s Labour Party


----------



## Argonia (May 26, 2021)

Starmer refuses to say whether he's taken drugs



			Keir Starmer refuses 14 times to answer Piers Morgan if he has taken drugs


----------



## ska invita (May 26, 2021)

Argonia said:


> Starmer refuses to say whether he's taken drugs
> 
> 
> 
> Keir Starmer refuses 14 times to answer Piers Morgan if he has taken drugs


shifty cokehead twat


----------



## a_chap (May 26, 2021)

I'd refuse to answer a question from Piers Morgan 14 times just on principle.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 26, 2021)

Argonia said:


> Starmer refuses to say whether he's taken drugs
> 
> 
> 
> Keir Starmer refuses 14 times to answer Piers Morgan if he has taken drugs


it was only 14 times so morgan could equal auld paxo's record.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 26, 2021)

the truth is that sir keir starmer has never taken drugs and he fears if this became widely known his reputation, lacklustre tho' it is, would take a hit from which it might never recover.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (May 26, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> the truth is that sir keir starmer has never taken drugs and he fears if this became widely known his reputation, lacklustre tho' it is, would take a hit from which it might never recover.


Talking of drugs, has anyone else ever had a hit from which they never recovered?


----------



## Shechemite (May 26, 2021)

It’s not how hard you hit, it’s how hard you get hit and keep moving forward


----------



## DotCommunist (May 26, 2021)

kier starmer calls it 'waccy baccy'


----------



## TopCat (May 26, 2021)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> Talking of drugs, has anyone else ever had a hit from which they never recovered?


Yeah, all my dead mates.


----------



## BillRiver (May 26, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Yeah, all my dead mates.



Same.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (May 26, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Yeah, all my dead mates.


Woops. Sorry one and all. Trying to be flippant and obviously failed.


----------



## andysays (May 26, 2021)

a_chap said:


> I'd refuse to answer a question from Piers Morgan 14 times just on principle.


I'd refuse to be interviewed by the twat in the first place, TBH


----------



## Shechemite (May 26, 2021)

I’d have to be high to do it


----------



## Serge Forward (May 26, 2021)

Piers Morgan, the Daily Mail, the Sun... New New Labour just loves this shit, they're pining for the days when Tony the War Criminal was best buddies with Rupert Murdoch.


----------



## ska invita (May 26, 2021)

Does anyone know of an article or similar which outlines all the bad things Starmer has done since becoming leader?


----------



## JimW (May 26, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Does anyone know of an article or similar which outlines all the bad things Starmer has done since becoming leader?


He probably has a page on his website that collects all his press releases.


----------



## SpookyFrank (May 26, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Does anyone know of an article or similar which outlines all the bad things Starmer has done since becoming leader?



The skeletons started piling up in his closet long before that he got the labour leader job.


----------



## andysays (May 26, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Does anyone know of an article or similar which outlines all the bad things Starmer has done since becoming leader?


There's quite a lot collected here


----------



## hitmouse (May 26, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Someone digging back to a 2011 publication to glean an insight into the mind-set of team Starmer:



Weird list (you can tell it's a weird list because it says so at the end), is that from a focus group or something rather than being her own words? The phrasing kind of makes it sound like they focus grouped the loony left to ask them for their descriptions?


----------



## killer b (May 26, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Weird list (you can tell it's a weird list because it says so at the end), is that from a focus group or something rather than being her own words? The phrasing kind of makes it sound like they focus grouped the loony left to ask them for their descriptions?


she's discussing some focus group findings, and the group was discussing the Labour Party of the 1980s. It's just contemporary tabloid newspaper talking points, same as modern focus groups bring up the same kind of thing now.


----------



## JTG (May 26, 2021)

Well I think today has highlighted how correct SKS was to back the government to the hilt over the last year and a bit


----------



## RileyOBlimey (May 27, 2021)

The Guardian is making excuses for Starmer‘s next byelection defeat: “But the entry of Galloway, a former Labour MP who has edged the party out in previous battles for seats in Bradford West and Bethnal Green, presents a new challenge and potentially increases the chances of a Conservative win.”









						Ex-Labour MP George Galloway joins Batley and Spen byelection race
					

Entry of Brexiter, who was expelled from Labour in 2003, may help the Conservatives take the seat




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## elbows (May 27, 2021)

lol, our Eurovision entry probably got more votes than Galloway will. All none of them.


----------



## brogdale (May 28, 2021)

One positive aspect of his candidature being proof that we don’t have more uncommon...


----------



## two sheds (Jun 1, 2021)

Starmer says he’s listening to Blair’s advice of ‘total reconstruction’ to revive Labour
					

‘We need to make the persuasive argument about why Britain would be better under Labour, we need to be patriotic and proud about it’




					www.independent.co.uk
				




bomb iraq


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jun 1, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Starmer says he’s listening to Blair’s advice of ‘total reconstruction’ to revive Labour
> 
> 
> ‘We need to make the persuasive argument about why Britain would be better under Labour, we need to be patriotic and proud about it’
> ...



When you think about it he's actually done pretty well in life for someone with complete and utter shit for brains.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 2, 2021)

edgy


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jun 2, 2021)

two sheds said:


> View attachment 271520
> 
> edgy



Is that one of editor 's old band pics from the 80s?


----------



## killer b (Jun 2, 2021)

Polling here has Andy Burnham - not an MP - by a huge margin the most popular person to replace Starmer, and now. 









						Plurality of British Voters Would Support Replacing Keir Starmer as Leader of the Labour Party, With Andy Burnham as a Possible Successor
					

Shortly after being re-elected Mayor of Greater Manchester on 6 May, Labour politician Andy Burnham claimed the Labour Party would not have …




					redfieldandwiltonstrategies.com


----------



## belboid (Jun 2, 2021)

I wonder if they were offered a choice of names or could just say whoever, because I’m surprised at the omission of (also not an mp) sadiq khan.  Him & burnham are almost the only Labour figures other than Starmer to have any kind of profile.


----------



## stavros (Jun 2, 2021)

two sheds said:


> View attachment 271520
> 
> edgy



There are worse before-they-were-famous photos.

 

18 years of Prime Ministerial history, and counting, there.


----------



## killer b (Jun 2, 2021)

belboid said:


> I wonder if they were offered a choice of names or could just say whoever, because I’m surprised at the omission of (also not an mp) sadiq khan.  Him & burnham are almost the only Labour figures other than Starmer to have any kind of profile.


looks like they were offered choices


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 2, 2021)

two sheds said:


> View attachment 271520
> 
> edgy


Who’s that?


----------



## Chilli.s (Jun 2, 2021)

They really need to pick someone who understands what opposition means


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 2, 2021)

RileyOBlimey said:


> The Guardian is making excuses for Starmer‘s next byelection defeat: “But the entry of Galloway, a former Labour MP who has edged the party out in previous battles for seats in Bradford West and Bethnal Green, presents a new challenge and potentially increases the chances of a Conservative win.”
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Can I just take this opportunity to call George Galloway a cunt?
Cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt


----------



## stavros (Jun 2, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> Who’s that?



I think it must be Kieth's old band. He's the one at the front with the JAMC/pubic hair on his head.


----------



## Leighsw2 (Jun 2, 2021)

We all used to look like that back then. I looked a lot like the moody one at the back (except I had a massive flat-top).


----------



## RileyOBlimey (Jun 2, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> Can I just take this opportunity to call George Galloway a cunt?
> Cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt



He’s certainly an indefatigable cunt.


----------



## Sue (Jun 2, 2021)

two sheds said:


> View attachment 271520
> 
> edgy


It's very Smash Hits* 1986(?).

*The black and white's obviously an attempt to be more NME but to no avail.


----------



## Raheem (Jun 2, 2021)

stavros said:


> There are worse before-they-were-famous photos.
> 
> View attachment 271523 View attachment 271524
> 
> 18 years of Prime Ministerial history, and counting, there.


There are some still worse ones, supposedly.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Jun 3, 2021)

the idea that a few "personality" photographs, a moist eye moment with piers morgan and a natty soundbite or two is going to suddenly make the public embrace stammer is just delusional - this stuff enhances and reinforces a narrative - but you have to have something to actually enhance. 
The Eton sociopath  on a zip wire or looking like a sack of shit chimes with how people see him - " a character" "his own man" and - importantly - not a run of the mill establishment politician (he got brexit done!). 
Every attempt by starmer to play this pathetic game has the exact opposite effect to what they intend - it further entrenches the (essentially correct)  narrative that he is another corporate, status quo politician in a  suit with a marketing team .
Why cant these cunts see this? How many times do they keep pulling the lever marked "Blair 1997" before they realise that it it does nothing other than accelerate the labour party down the road of utter irrelevance.


----------



## emanymton (Jun 3, 2021)

Kaka Tim said:


> the idea that a few "personality" photographs, a moist eye moment with piers morgan and a natty soundbite or two is going to suddenly make the public embrace stammer is just delusional - this stuff enhances and reinforces a narrative - but you have to have something to actually enhance.
> The Eton sociopath  on a zip wire or looking like a sack of shit chimes with how people see him - " a character" "his own man" and - importantly - not a run of the mill establishment politician (he got brexit done!).
> Every attempt by starmer to play this pathetic game has the exact opposite effect to what they intend - it further entrenches the (essentially correct)  narrative that he is another corporate, status quo politician in a  suit with a marketing team .
> Why cant these cunts see this? How many times do they keep pulling the lever marked "Blair 1997" before they realise that it it does nothing other than accelerate the labour party down the road of utter irrelevance.


I only realised recently what Johnson's secret weapon is. As much as I hate the cunt unlike many other politicians he actually has a personality. 

Or maybe he doesn't bury his personality to appeal to the results of 15 focus groups that all contradict each other.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 3, 2021)

emanymton said:


> I only realised recently what Johnson's secret weapon is. As much as I hate the cunt unlike many other politicians he actually has a personality.
> 
> Or maybe he doesn't bury his personality to appeal to the results of 15 focus groups that all contradict each other.


Strikes me as all being for show though. Wouldn't call it an actual personality.


----------



## bemused (Jun 3, 2021)

I vote Green and don't really follow the Labour politics. But, I'd pay good money to see Jess Phillips as Labour leader just for the pure entertainment of watching Johnson having to deal with a real human being at question time. 

Feel free not to give me the inevitable list of why she's an awful person.


----------



## steveseagull (Jun 3, 2021)

bemused said:


> Feel free not to give me the inevitable list of why she's an awful person.


That would take me several days so i shall pass


----------



## JTG (Jun 3, 2021)

bemused said:


> I vote Green and don't really follow the Labour politics. But, I'd pay good money to see Jess Phillips as Labour leader just for the pure entertainment of watching Johnson having to deal with a real human being at question time.
> 
> Feel free not to give me the inevitable list of why she's an awful person.


Lol


----------



## elbows (Jun 4, 2021)

Well I never, it turns out that Gordon Brown is actually on the same page as me when it comes to some aspects of the future. I didnt really know which thread to stick this in and since Starmer is hardly setting the world on fire with a bold new vision, I thought I'd stick it here. 









						Gordon Brown: Boris Johnson’s mistakes could still catch up with him
					

Exclusive: ex-PM cites example of Margaret Thatcher whose political demise came soon after landslide win




					www.theguardian.com
				






> “People are being tested through this crisis. I think you’re going to see big changes in personnel at the end of it,” he said. “I would be looking for people whose names we don’t know yet to come through in the next year or two … it’s going to be a younger generation, who are going to sweep aside some of the conceptions of the older leaders.”





> “In 1987 when she got a massive majority, people thought Mrs Thatcher could go on for ever and by 1990 she was out. The mistakes that she was making caught up with her,” he said.
> 
> “It takes time for people to see what is really going on. It might look, if you take a picture of today, [that] Boris Johnson can survive all the mistakes that have been made. But I think when you look at it over a period of years, I’m not sure that that’s going to be the same response. And it’s a bit like a fast-moving train that … can pick up speed but then suddenly, suddenly, it grinds to a halt.”





> A younger generation have had to live through some terrible events and tragedies that you never thought would happen in one decade, but actually are determined to do something about it, and to some extent they think our generations failed their generation, they want to be the generation that will make the changes.”


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2021)

stavros said:


> There are worse before-they-were-famous photos.
> 
> View attachment 271523 View attachment 271524
> 
> 18 years of Prime Ministerial history, and counting, there.


The bottom picture's well composed and actually pretty good. The top one's shit mind You can tell which group of twats got someone with some notion of photography


----------



## steveseagull (Jun 4, 2021)

elbows said:


> Well I never, it turns out that Gordon Brown is actually on the same page as me when it comes to some aspects of the future. I didnt really know which thread to stick this in and since Starmer is hardly setting the world on fire with a bold new vision, I thought I'd stick it here.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well yes. Me too. Rather weak though. I have worked with Gordon Brown (post PM) on a couple fo projects and I found him an OK guy. Still full of good ideas but not a lot of willingness to shout about them across the roof tops.


----------



## RileyOBlimey (Jun 5, 2021)

Kaka Tim said:


> the idea that a few "personality" photographs, a moist eye moment with piers morgan and a natty soundbite or two is going to suddenly make the public embrace stammer is just delusional - this stuff enhances and reinforces a narrative - but you have to have something to actually enhance.
> The Eton sociopath  on a zip wire or looking like a sack of shit chimes with how people see him - " a character" "his own man" and - importantly - not a run of the mill establishment politician (he got brexit done!).
> Every attempt by starmer to play this pathetic game has the exact opposite effect to what they intend - it further entrenches the (essentially correct)  narrative that he is another corporate, status quo politician in a  suit with a marketing team .
> Why cant these cunts see this? How many times do they keep pulling the lever marked "Blair 1997" before they realise that it it does nothing other than accelerate the labour party down the road of utter irrelevance.



Don’t take for granted Starmer and Mandelson want Labour in Government.


----------



## JTG (Jun 5, 2021)

I'm sorry but I still can't get over the idea of PMQs featuring Philips talking about herself at length


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jun 5, 2021)

RileyOBlimey said:


> Don’t take for granted Starmer and Mandelson want Labour in Government.



I'm sure Starmer does if only because he'd like to be PM.


----------



## ska invita (Jun 5, 2021)

i didnt see the interview but ive learned
Starmer is proud of his hair
He fancied himself as a student

Twat


----------



## JTG (Jun 5, 2021)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> I'm sure Starmer does if only because he'd like to be PM.


Imagine his first year in office. 12 glorious months of vague hints that he might tell us what he intends to do any minute now


----------



## RileyOBlimey (Jun 5, 2021)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> I'm sure Starmer does if only because he'd like to be PM.



He’s doing a bloody good impression of someone wanting  Boris to stay PM.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 5, 2021)

ska invita said:


> i didnt see the interview but ive learned
> Starmer is proud of his hair
> He fancied himself as a student
> 
> Twat


A bit more work and that'll be a fine haiku


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jun 5, 2021)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> I'm sure Starmer does if only because he'd like to be PM.



or is he aiming at a peerage for services to the conservative party?


----------



## NoXion (Jun 5, 2021)

ska invita said:


> i didnt see the interview but ive learned
> Starmer is proud of his hair
> He fancied himself as a student
> 
> Twat



A laser-like focus on only the most substantial issues from Sir Quiff, I take it?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jun 5, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Strikes me as all being for show though. Wouldn't call it an actual personality.



He has a personality. A bitter, entitled, insecure and vengeful personality. His one strength as a politician is his ability to (mostly) hide it with his affable buffoon persona.


----------



## TopCat (Jun 6, 2021)

Bab bab bab.


----------



## steveseagull (Jun 8, 2021)

Keith's ratings are now officially as bad as Jezza's without the deranged press attacks and attacks from his own PLP.

They will go lower.









						Exclusive: Keir Starmer’s ratings plunge to same level as Corbyn
					

Manchester mayor Andy Burnham is seen by the public and by Labour’s own supporters as a better potential Prime Minister




					www.standard.co.uk


----------



## Argonia (Jun 8, 2021)

sinking ship


----------



## steveseagull (Jun 8, 2021)

They are going to have to do something radical at some point like replace him with a human.


----------



## Argonia (Jun 8, 2021)

The problem for me is that New Labour were essentially neoliberal/Thatcherite and having them in the same party as Corbyn just makes no sense. They are so divided, I can't see any leader being able to bridge that divide and make them a coherent option again.


----------



## hitmouse (Jun 8, 2021)

stavros said:


> I think it must be Kieth's old band. He's the one at the front with the JAMC/pubic hair on his head.


Just realised, we never took suggestions for what Starmer's goth band should be/have been called. I can't actually think of any good ones right now, but I'm sure there must be some.


----------



## lazythursday (Jun 8, 2021)

Argonia said:


> The problem for me is that New Labour were essentially neoliberal/Thatcherite and having them in the same party as Corbyn just makes no sense. They are so divided, I can't see any leader being able to bridge that divide and make them a coherent option again.


I think there's an argument to be made that the neoliberal consensus is over and therefore many of the New Labour remnants are also pivoting away from all that. Luke Akehurst was claiming on Twitter the other day that there is broad consensus within the Labour Party on domestic issues (which I'm sure isn't true, but clearly the right have few ideas left beyond the wave-the-flag cultural stuff). I'm sure many of them are looking closely at Biden - NL tended to be obsessed with the US. If you look at someone like Rachel Reeves clearly she's moved leftwards with the prevailing winds. These people just want to be in charge, and they will tailor their policy offer and beliefs accordingly with what is perceived to be acceptable / 'sensible'.


----------



## rekil (Jun 8, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Just realised, we never took suggestions for what Starmer's goth band should be/have been called. I can't actually think of any good ones right now, but I'm sure there must be some.


Alien Forensic Fiend


----------



## maomao (Jun 8, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Just realised, we never took suggestions for what Starmer's goth band should be/have been called. I can't actually think of any good ones right now, but I'm sure there must be some.


The Fucking Wankers.


----------



## magneze (Jun 8, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Just realised, we never took suggestions for what Starmer's goth band should be/have been called. I can't actually think of any good ones right now, but I'm sure there must be some.


Policy Vacuum


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 8, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Just realised, we never took suggestions for what Starmer's goth band should be/have been called. I can't actually think of any good ones right now, but I'm sure there must be some.


event cancelled


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 8, 2021)

Cradle of Milf


----------



## splonkydoo (Jun 8, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Just realised, we never took suggestions for what Starmer's goth band should be/have been called. I can't actually think of any good ones right now, but I'm sure there must be some.



QC & the Banshees


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jun 8, 2021)

lazythursday said:


> I think there's an argument to be made that the neoliberal consensus is over and therefore many of the New Labour remnants are also pivoting away from all that. Luke Akehurst was claiming on Twitter the other day that there is broad consensus within the Labour Party on domestic issues (which I'm sure isn't true, but clearly the right have few ideas left beyond the wave-the-flag cultural stuff). I'm sure many of them are looking closely at Biden - NL tended to be obsessed with the US. If you look at someone like Rachel Reeves clearly she's moved leftwards with the prevailing winds. These people just want to be in charge, and they will tailor their policy offer and beliefs accordingly with what is perceived to be acceptable / 'sensible'.



That's not what's happening here.  Starmer and co are in pursuit of a fictitious centre ground - and believe that they can demonstrate their position within it by attacking the left within the party/standing by flags etc. The left of Labour - if its commentariat are representative of its thinking - meanwhile think that their support base in the University towns and cities can get the job done if they just wait for a demographic moment, enter a popular front with other 'progressives' and wait for Starmer to fail.

Attempts to claim Biden as somehow evidence of the correctness of either approach are very wide of the mark.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jun 8, 2021)

Cockteau Twins


----------



## chilango (Jun 8, 2021)

The Culnt


----------



## chilango (Jun 8, 2021)

Kier of Destiny


----------



## chilango (Jun 8, 2021)

Haircut 100 (and 92)


----------



## Plumdaff (Jun 8, 2021)

Hard Working Family


----------



## chilango (Jun 8, 2021)

Flock of Seig Heils


----------



## chilango (Jun 8, 2021)

R.E.Mainer


----------



## chilango (Jun 8, 2021)

Primal Sigh


----------



## chilango (Jun 8, 2021)

Straight Cyclists on Waccy Baccy


----------



## chilango (Jun 8, 2021)

Ends Unatomic Corbyn


----------



## ruffneck23 (Jun 8, 2021)

Right said Keith


----------



## splonkydoo (Jun 8, 2021)

Keirs Atomic Poll-ratings


----------



## hitmouse (Jun 8, 2021)

Public Prosecutor


----------



## hitmouse (Jun 8, 2021)

Cabaret Starmaire's classic single Flag Flag Flag.


----------



## hitmouse (Jun 8, 2021)

Front 24 Points Ahead By Now


----------



## magneze (Jun 8, 2021)

Despair Central


----------



## bendeus (Jun 8, 2021)

Red Tory Yellow Tory


----------



## hitmouse (Jun 8, 2021)

Einstürzende Zulassungsbewertungen


----------



## Chilli.s (Jun 8, 2021)

D ream on, new single Things can Only Get More Mediocre


----------



## hitmouse (Jun 8, 2021)

Doesn't really fit with the goth band theme, but Total Eclipse of the Hartlepool has to be in the set list somewhere as well.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 8, 2021)

Chilli.s said:


> D ream on, new single Things can Only Get More Mediocre


things can only get bitter


----------



## Plumdaff (Jun 8, 2021)

Wet Wet Wet


----------



## JimW (Jun 8, 2021)

The Damned - New Rose? Or perhaps a total logo makeover?


----------



## bendeus (Jun 8, 2021)

Fiver to the server fund to anyone coming up with a credible Nephilim one. I'm trying desperately but I fear it's beyond my wit.


----------



## magneze (Jun 8, 2021)

Nephilim?


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jun 8, 2021)

bendeus said:


> Fiver to the server fund to anyone coming up with a credible Nephilim one. I'm trying desperately but I fear it's beyond my wit.



Fears he'll be Never-in?


----------



## hitmouse (Jun 8, 2021)

Andrew Eldritch is Moving Back to Batley & Spen


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 8, 2021)

Frank Field has been kicked upstairs as an indy so the perfect set up isn't there.


----------



## JimW (Jun 8, 2021)

Fields in Our Focus Group Survey Not Filled In


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 8, 2021)

cradle of shite


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 8, 2021)

fields of the snivelling


----------



## hitmouse (Jun 8, 2021)

...And You Will Know Us By A Sense of Authentic Values Alignment


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jun 8, 2021)

Feels of the Never win 

Best I can do


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 8, 2021)

David Evanescence


----------



## pesh (Jun 8, 2021)

Annoy Division


----------



## bendeus (Jun 8, 2021)

Fiver donated 👍


----------



## JimW (Jun 8, 2021)

Average, White, Bland.


----------



## Smangus (Jun 8, 2021)

Hollow Horse


----------



## JimW (Jun 8, 2021)

Poll T'Anka


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 8, 2021)

JimW said:


> The Damned - New Rose? Or perhaps a total logo makeover?


tbh starmer reminds me more of 'disco man'

down the stairs no one cares


----------



## hitmouse (Jun 8, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> tbh starmer reminds me more of 'disco man'
> 
> down the stairs no one cares


I quite like his classic anarcho-punk LP, The Day the Party Died.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 8, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> I quite like his classic anarcho-punk LP, The Day the Party Died.


didn't the subhumans do a song about starmer, with the line it's fun fun fun till the keith comes round?


----------



## chilango (Jun 8, 2021)

Tony! Toni! Toné!


----------



## chilango (Jun 8, 2021)

Radical* Dads' Faction




*Centrist


----------



## lazythursday (Jun 8, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> That's not what's happening here.  Starmer and co are in pursuit of a fictitious centre ground - and believe that they can demonstrate their position within it by attacking the left within the party/standing by flags etc. The left of Labour - if its commentariat are representative of its thinking - meanwhile think that their support base in the University towns and cities can get the job done if they just wait for a demographic moment, enter a popular front with other 'progressives' and wait for Starmer to fail.
> 
> Attempts to claim Biden as somehow evidence of the correctness of either approach are very wide of the mark.


My point was that to characterise the right of the party as 'neoliberals' may no longer really be correct, given wider shifts in economic thinking, not least within the Conservative Party. I wasn't passing judgement on either wing of the party's current strategy for winning power. But I'm not sure if your cartoonish summary of left thinking even applies to Clive Lewis let alone the entire Labour left.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jun 8, 2021)

lazythursday said:


> My point was that to characterise the right of the party as 'neoliberals' may no longer really be correct, given wider shifts in economic thinking, not least within the Conservative Party. I wasn't passing judgement on either wing of the party's current strategy for winning power. But I'm not sure if your cartoonish summary of left thinking even applies to Clive Lewis let alone the entire Labour left.



What ‘wider shifts’ in thinking in the Tory Party?

My point about Starmer at al wasn’t about winning elections it was about the mindset, the political ground it seeks to capture to attempt to win elections from. It can, briefly, be characterised as technocratic centralism designed to capture a middle ground that simply doesn’t exist anymore. There is no constituency.

As for the Labour left I’ll be fascinated to read how you perceive it to be rebuilding, organising and thinking through where it goes post Corbyn.


----------



## elbows (Jun 8, 2021)

Well various aspects of neoliberalism, small government, and narrow ideas about levels of borrowing and deficits have been dying on their arse quite broadly for a while now. The Tories have been coming up with ways to do their own version of this change, involving lots of cronyism and the government giving the money to companies instead of the government providing the services themselves, but it still quite the change compared to the dominant ideology of many recent decades.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jun 8, 2021)

elbows said:


> Well various aspects of neoliberalism, small government, and narrow ideas about levels of borrowing and deficits have been dying on their arse quite broadly for a while now. The Tories have been coming up with ways to do their own version of this change, involving lots of cronyism and the government giving the money to companies instead of the government providing the services themselves, but it still quite the change compared to the dominant ideology of many recent decades.



As we’ve debated on here, more than once, the Tory shift must be understood as a shift to preserve - and buy breathing space for - neoliberalism rather than a move away from it. You are right to identify the use of public money/contracts to bail out some companies as a key feature of how this works practically. The gobbling up of other companies during the pandemic by hedge funds is another marker of capital’s realignment.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 8, 2021)

Despite the rhetoric neoliberalism never favoured a small state. Indeed it requires an synthesis of state and capital. Capital needs the state, especially at the moment which is why (most of) capital favours increased spending - so long as it is spending on the right sorts of projects.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jun 8, 2021)

redsquirrel said:


> Despite the rhetoric neoliberalism never favoured a small state. Indeed it requires an synthesis of state and capital. Capital needs the state, especially at the moment which is why (most of) capital favours increased spending - so long as it is spending on the right sorts of projects.


There is also the unintended growth under neoliberalism of social care, mental health services, tax credit workers, job centre staff, NHS, custody services and other significantly state funded services that have proven necessary to deal with the casualties of the economic system.

ETA- and handing as much of these services over to their friends is one of the key ways that neoliberalism will seek to regenerate


----------



## splonkydoo (Jun 8, 2021)

This Mortal Wet Wipe


----------



## elbows (Jun 8, 2021)

Yeah I'm probably using the term neoliberalism wrong, using it as shorthand for only a few of its features that were in the driving seat during most of my lifetime so far. I need something else to describe the bits of it that are going out of fashion.


----------



## kabbes (Jun 9, 2021)

steveseagull said:


> They are going to have to do something radical at some point like replace him with a human.


It’s not really about his charisma — believing that is what got them into this mess in the first place. It’s about having somebody with actual principles and thus who knows how they will respond to events by reference to those principles.  Without that — and kief has none of it — the public quickly see through you as inauthentic.  When people say they want a strong leader, they don’t mean someone authoritarian, they just mean they want somebody who projects calm by seemingly always  knowing what to do.  That comes from principles, not charisma.

You might object that Johnson lacks principles, or Cameron or Blair.  But I don’t think that’s true.  Being amoral or populist or right-wing doesn’t mean you don’t have a guiding philosophy (plus Johnson has never had great approval ratings anyway).  I think people have a sense that those individuals have views about things that happen, and that those views are relatively predictable. I have no idea what kief really thinks about anything.


----------



## kabbes (Jun 9, 2021)

redsquirrel said:


> Despite the rhetoric neoliberalism never favoured a small state. Indeed it requires an synthesis of state and capital. Capital needs the state, especially at the moment which is why (most of) capital favours increased spending - so long as it is spending on the right sorts of projects.


Indeed.  The whole point of neoliberalism is that you bring a well-ordered market to everything.  This market needs state intervention to prevent it failing.  It also requires states to provide the metrics and incentives that the market will operate to. Neoliberals want to prevent centralised planning and control, not state activity per se.


----------



## belboid (Jun 9, 2021)

Starmer raises Palestine at PMQs.   Looks like he is worried about Galloway


----------



## brogdale (Jun 9, 2021)

belboid said:


> Starmer raises Palestine at PMQs.   Looks like he is worried about Galloway


Maybe the membership numbers really are dire and they're struggling to get the doorknockers interested?


----------



## TopCat (Jun 9, 2021)

belboid said:


> Starmer raises Palestine at PMQs.   Looks like he is worried about Galloway


Opportunistic wanker.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jun 9, 2021)

belboid said:


> Starmer raises Palestine at PMQs. Looks like he is worried about Galloway



won't he have to suspend himself from the party?


----------



## andysays (Jun 9, 2021)

belboid said:


> Starmer raises Palestine at PMQs.   Looks like he is worried about Galloway


Is he calling for even harsher measures to be taken against the Palestinians?


----------



## rekil (Jun 9, 2021)

belboid said:


> Starmer raises Palestine at PMQs.   Looks like he is worried about Galloway


Looks like he has fallen into galloway's trap and proved his point about labour and the left's fetishisation of palestinians! (the gaza ones at any rate, not them boring formerly of yarmouk ones) Galloway's Workers' Party of Britain


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 9, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> won't he have to suspend himself from the party?



Or suspend himself from a bridge


----------



## TopCat (Jun 9, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Or suspend himself from a bridge


Amyl soaked tangerine in his mouth and lacy knickers.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jun 9, 2021)

andysays said:


> Is he calling for even harsher measures to be taken against the Palestinians?


I expect it depends on what the Tories have said about it


----------



## steveseagull (Jun 9, 2021)

Starmzy news: he has predictably pissed off the BoDs with his luke warm opportunistic support for the Palestinians. No doubt he has also upset the Jewish Labour Movement.

He is going to have to suspend himself now.


----------



## hitmouse (Jun 9, 2021)

belboid said:


> Starmer raises Palestine at PMQs.   Looks like he is worried about Galloway


Looking forward to him trying to triangulate Galloway's vote further by bringing up woke gays on the Archers.


----------



## MickiQ (Jun 9, 2021)

I'd love to know how much of a threat Starmer thinks Galloway is, Mad George has no hope of winning but any votes he gets are going to come off Labour's tally at a time when Labour needs every last one of them.


----------



## Argonia (Jun 9, 2021)

Mad George has won elections before. I doubt he'll do it this time but I might put a bitcoin on or something as a idle bet.  Starmer's about as popular as an outbreak of a pandemic so who knows?


----------



## Leighsw2 (Jun 9, 2021)

belboid said:


> Starmer raises Palestine at PMQs.   Looks like he is worried about Galloway


It's just the shear empty cynicism isn't it? Do they really think anyone in Batley and Spen will fall for this?


----------



## MickiQ (Jun 9, 2021)

Argonia said:


> Mad George has won elections before. I doubt he'll do it this time but I might put a bitcoin on or something as a idle bet.  Starmer's about as popular as an outbreak of a pandemic so who knows?


Mad George is a well enough known figure nationally to be confident of getting a good share of the vote, certainly he is likely to be the most successful of the crackpots perhaps he will be the one to beat the LibDems into third place.
The problem for Starmer is that the other crackpots might take some votes off the Tories but nothing like what Galloway will take off Labour. It could well be that Galloway takes enough votes off Labour to deny them victory by a modest margin.
That has got to be the worst scenario for Starmer losing because voters deserted him for BoZo and Mad George. Like I said I would love to be a fly on the wall in any strategy meetings, I bet there are some heated discussions with a good measure of gloom thrown in.


----------



## Argonia (Jun 9, 2021)

The strategy meetings would be hilarious as a detached observer. Must be full panic mode.


----------



## rekil (Jun 9, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> Mad George is a well enough known figure nationally to be confident of getting a good share of the vote, certainly he is likely to be the most successful of the crackpots perhaps he will be the one to beat the LibDems into third place.


 He only got 489 votes in west bromwich despite raking in 25k on gofundme alone. He can go lower.


----------



## killer b (Jun 9, 2021)

He got 2600 in Manchester Gorton in 2017, and has done much to further alienate his supposed constituency since. He's not doing anything in Batley & Spen


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Jun 9, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> I'd love to know how much of a threat Starmer thinks Galloway is, Mad George has no hope of winning but any votes he gets are going to come off Labour's tally at a time when Labour needs every last one of them.


exactly!


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jun 9, 2021)

killer b said:


> He got 2600 in Manchester Gorton in 2017, and has done much to further alienate his supposed constituency since. He's not doing anything in Batley & Spen



I agree, but I suspect Labour's internal polling is telling them that a similar performance by GG in Batley could be significant.


----------



## belboid (Jun 9, 2021)

Yeah, 1000 votes could be crucial.


----------



## steveseagull (Jun 9, 2021)

Perfectly normal reaction


----------



## steveseagull (Jun 10, 2021)

Keith is off to do some campaigning in Batley and Spen today which should put the kiss of death on the entire campaign.


----------



## Argonia (Jun 10, 2021)

Any predictions of how low the vote share will be in Batley?


----------



## JTG (Jun 12, 2021)

What I think will be just as significant - but not as noticeable - as Galloway is just the sheer lack of energy or enthusiasm around Labour. Stay at homes will outnumber anyone crossing over to him.

Tories to win just by getting their base out and this to be portrayed as voters switching parties when this is fairly minimal


----------



## Argonia (Jun 12, 2021)

What Tories?


----------



## brogdale (Jun 12, 2021)

JTG said:


> What I think will be just as significant - but not as noticeable - as Galloway is just the sheer lack of energy or enthusiasm around Labour. Stay at homes will outnumber anyone crossing over to him.
> 
> Tories to win just by getting their base out and this to be portrayed as voters switching parties when this is fairly minimal


It's a bit like the 'Labour core' are being asked to turn out to vote for Debenhams, really.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jun 13, 2021)

The first replicants were easy to spot:


----------



## Argonia (Jun 14, 2021)

A question! What would Keir Hardie have made of Starmergeddon?






						Google Scholar
					






					scholar.google.com


----------



## teqniq (Jun 18, 2021)

Oh dear. Rats, ship, sinking.....



no official news source for this so if somebody has one....


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jun 18, 2021)

> "He was the brains and the muscle of the whole party operation."



relatively speaking...


----------



## Santino (Jun 18, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> relatively speaking...


That's a callback.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jun 18, 2021)

teqniq said:


> no official news source for this so if somebody has one....



does the mirror count?









						Close Keir Starmer aide steps down amid pressure on Labour leader to revamp team
					

EXCLUSIVE Director of Communications Ben Nunn, who has worked for the Labour leader since 2016, said he was quitting to pursue other projects.




					www.mirror.co.uk


----------



## Sue (Jun 18, 2021)

teqniq said:


> Oh dear. Rats, ship, sinking.....
> 
> 
> 
> no official news source for this so if somebody has one....



The brains eh?


----------



## Raheem (Jun 18, 2021)

teqniq said:


> Oh dear. Rats, ship, sinking.....



Something tells me that the "source" in that tweet may be Ben Nunn on the phone doing an accent.


----------



## Dogsauce (Jun 18, 2021)

Late to the party, but did anyone do “Waitrose of Avalanche”?


----------



## tony.c (Jun 18, 2021)

From wikispooks.com


----------



## RileyOBlimey (Jun 18, 2021)

The Labour meltdown is better than the football.


----------



## Shechemite (Jun 19, 2021)

Not a high bar tbf


----------



## Humberto (Jun 19, 2021)

Nothing personable about him is there? Nonentity.


----------



## Argonia (Jun 19, 2021)

Wonderful Clement Attlee is turning in his fucking grave. What sort of bollocking would he give to 'Sir' Keir Starmaggedon who bowed down to Queen Elizabeth II?


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 19, 2021)

Attlee would not give any sort of bollocking to Keith for bowing to the Queen.


----------



## Argonia (Jun 19, 2021)

redsquirrel said:


> Attlee would not give any sort of bollocking to Keith for bowing to the Queen.


Starmaggedon has no place in the New British Republic. He has literally not a word to say for himself. The abject 622 votes in the Chesham and Amersham Battle are the end for him. Why on earth did he put dear old Jeremy Corbyn in jail?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jun 19, 2021)

teqniq said:


> Oh dear. Rats, ship, sinking.....
> 
> 
> 
> no official news source for this so if somebody has one....




Being the brains and muscle of a damp cardboard box not really something to put on the CV.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 19, 2021)

nvm.


----------



## bemused (Jun 19, 2021)

Read the news this morning Andy Burnham seems to being pimped out to replace nice haircut man - would he really want the gig? Whacky hair cut man isn't going to lose the next election and Burnham seems pretty well-liked in his current job.


----------



## killer b (Jun 19, 2021)

teqniq said:


> Oh dear. Rats, ship, sinking.....
> 
> 
> 
> no official news source for this so if somebody has one....



The text in this tweet is a reference to a tweet from someone on the right of the party when someone else (Emily Oldknow I think) quit under Corbyn.


----------



## teqniq (Jun 19, 2021)

So it is. Why would Max Shanly do that i wonder?









						Fresh blow for Labour as senior official dubbed 'brains of the party' quits
					

A senior Labour official dubbed "the brains of the party" has dramatically quit her job.




					www.politicshome.com


----------



## Sue (Jun 19, 2021)

Which one's the brains of the party then? I'm astonished to find there's one, let alone two...


----------



## Brainaddict (Jun 19, 2021)

You might think his director of communications is leaving after they realised they've failed to communicate anything for the last year, but I see he has also engaged a literal pollster as his 'director of strategy' Keir Starmer’s communications chief Ben Nunn to leave role She also wrote some crap-sounding book about why Labour lost the north.

The strategy to be a weathercock has not worked at all so far, so why not double down on it.


----------



## Argonia (Jun 19, 2021)

Poor old 'Sir' Keir Starmaggedon and his new role in the New Republic cleaning toilets for £2.47 an hour. He'll have such fun I'm sure. Maybe he'll remember the good old days when he decided to get on one knee to the Empress Elizabeth II Lillibet Rose West with fondness. And reflect on when he decided to put Jeremy Corbyn in jail. He is going to have an absolute whale of a time scooping excrement with his little bogbrush with not a single friend in the entire world. What delciicous fun he will have remembering when he collapsed into Trotsky's dustbin of history with 662 votes in the Battle of Chesham and Amersham and finally realised he's not the new Blair now that poor old muddled and confused and deluded Anthony Charles Lynton Blair is bound for his war crimes trial in the Hague. Such fun. Such absolute fun. I can just picture him with that litttle bogbrush in his sweaty little palm going at it with Stakhanovite efficiency. What a proud worker and socialist he is after all. After all - just think of all the very fine work he has done for socialism in this country. The incredible work. If Keir Hardie could have met him I am sure they would have got on like an absolute house on fire. So much to discuss about socialism. And wonderful Clement Attlee would be so very, very, very, very impressed. Gold star for Sir Keir and his incredibly litttle bogbrush!


----------



## maomao (Jun 19, 2021)

Brainaddict said:


> The strategy to be a weathercock has not worked at all so far, so why not double down on it.


To be fair, it's only the 'weather' bit that Starmer struggles with.


----------



## tim (Jun 19, 2021)

Argonia said:


> Wonderful Clement Attlee is turning in his fucking grave. What sort of bollocking would he give to 'Sir' Keir Starmaggedon who bowed down to Queen Elizabeth II?


Yes, for caving in for a mere Knighthood when he could have got a hereditary peerage like the Earl of Atlee


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jun 19, 2021)

tim said:


> Yes, for caving in for a mere Knighthood when he could have got a hereditary peerage like the Earl of Atlee



he'll get the peerage sooner or later, for services to the conservative party...


----------



## killer b (Jun 19, 2021)

teqniq said:


> So it is. Why would Max Shanly do that i wonder?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Its just a meta in-joke for the very online twitter left. I'm ashamed I recognised it tbh


----------



## Argonia (Jun 19, 2021)

killer b said:


> Its just a meta in-joke for the very online twitter left. I'm ashamed I recognised it tbh


The brains of the New New Labour New Britain New War Crimes New Tyrant party? Golly he must have a brain the size of an infinitesimally small walnut made out of plastic cheese manufactured in a Jeff Bezos robot droid factory in an unregulated tax haven in Luxembourg. What a John Nash beautiful mind he must have. Gold star for him and Sir Keir Starmaggedon's little bogbrush beavering away being a minion and a dogsbody cleaning up the filth and muck of people visiitng a local lido in Croydon! Well done Sir Keir! And well done Sir Edward Davey for bowing down to the LIzard Empress Caligula Lillibet Rose West! Jolly good show folks! Very impressive! Trebles all round as Private Eye would put it!


----------



## Kaka Tim (Jun 20, 2021)

more mutterings within the shadow cabinet via the guardian. Reading between the lines it suggests their could be a serious attempt to replace him if they lose batley and spen. 

Embattled Starmer makes another change to top team



> In the wake of the Chesham and Amersham byelection, in which Labour finished behind the Greens on 622 votes, a Labour frontbencher said: “It’s just shocking. It just goes from bad to worse really, everyone is so down. You’ve got people now with majorities of 2,000-3,000 who think they’re toast. Starmer’s office is dysfunctional.
> “The view is that Keir and his office have completely squandered all the goodwill, all the hope, all the desire for him to do well, which he had last year when he won the leadership with more than 50% of the vote.”


----------



## magneze (Jun 20, 2021)

Maybe Bercow will fancy having a go.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 20, 2021)

Kaka Tim said:


> more mutterings within the shadow cabinet via the guardian. Reading between the lines it suggests their could be a serious attempt to replace him if they lose batley and spen.
> 
> Embattled Starmer makes another change to top team


If the _bomb the village to save the village _long-game really was to shake out the left from the party's selectorate, perhaps Starmer's cack-handed and factional 'caretaker' tenure will open things up safely for the right?


----------



## Argonia (Jun 20, 2021)

magneze said:


> Maybe Bercow will fancy having a go.


Poor old Bercow. He loved looking at himself in the mirror in his fine little cloths and vestements. But Narcissus can't make love to Echo. He has no place in the Republc whatsoever other than to attend a JobCentre Plus and be grilled as to why on earth he hasn't kept his little job diary up to date in his terrible weak spidery little handwriting. What kind of employer will invite him to an interview?


----------



## magneze (Jun 20, 2021)

Argonia said:


> Poor old Bercow. He loved looking at himself in the mirror in his fine little cloths and vestements. But Narcissus can't make love to Echo. He has no place in the Republc whatsoever other than to attend a JobCentre Plus and be grilled as to why on earth he hasn't kept his little job diary up to date in his terrible weak spidery little handwriting. What kind of employer will invite him to an interview?


The Labour Party?


----------



## Argonia (Jun 20, 2021)

magneze said:


> The Labour Party?



Oh dear. What an entertaining conversation they must have had.

"Good morning Tyrant. What do you like a job?"

"Yes please Tyrant. I'm running away from Tyrant Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson now he's collapsing into his criminal trial."

"Welcome. I am the new Tyrant Anthony Charles Lynton Blair. My name is Sir Keir and I worsship the evil Union Jack and bowed down to Queen Rose West's Sodom and Gomorrah Empire. Welcome to my incredibly successful and not at all entirely and uttrely fucked party."

Oh to have been a fly on the wall at that little exchange. What delicious fun. Neither of them know we live in a Republic now because neither of them has read a syllable of a book in their lives.


----------



## TopCat (Jun 20, 2021)

Argonia said:


> Poor old Bercow. He loved looking at himself in the mirror in his fine little cloths and vestements. But Narcissus can't make love to Echo. He has no place in the Republc whatsoever other than to attend a JobCentre Plus and be grilled as to why on earth he hasn't kept his little job diary up to date in his terrible weak spidery little handwriting. What kind of employer will invite him to an interview?


If he put on a bit of weight he could be a Brian Blessed impersonator.


----------



## Argonia (Jun 20, 2021)

TopCat said:


> If he put on a bit of weight he could be a Brian Blessed impersonator.



Imagine. He could tour the seasides and promenades and I am sure that literally millions of people will be rushing at great velocity to buy tickets to see his absolutely incredible act. I'm using my dead Tyrant Coin to buy tickets to the Britghton Pier show as we speak - with as much enthusiasm as I bought tickets to see Nigel Farage talking about his hairy vagina and his small clitoris and then didn't turn up. Or how about good old Chaturbate - he could be filmed in a little dark room with a webcam masturbating his Napoleon sized member for literally 3 or 4 people to look at and laugh like leaking drains? Maybe Sally will join him with an Arab strap and they could turn some tricks? He's going to be so wealthy in the new currency the Britcoin he can buy more lavish vestements and look at himself in his mirror all day long as per fucking usual failing to read Dorian Gray.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 20, 2021)

TopCat said:


> If he put on a bit of weight he could be a Brian Blessed impersonator.


Kevin Keegan look-a-likey?


----------



## TopCat (Jun 20, 2021)

Argonia said:


> Imagine. He could tour the seasides and promenades and I am sure that literally millions of people will be rushing at great velocity to buy tickets to see his absolutely incredible act. I'm using my dead Tyrant Coin to buy tickets to the Britghton Pier show as we speak - with as much enthusiasm as I bought tickets to see Nigel Farage talking about his hairy vagina and his small clitoris and then didn't turn up. Or how about good old Chaturbate - he could be filmed in a little dark room with a webcam masturbating his Napoleon sized member for literally 3 or 4 people to look at and laugh like leaking drains? He's going to be so wealthy he can buy more lavish vestements and look at himself in his mirror all day long as per fucking usual.


I get a sense you are not a fan?


----------



## Argonia (Jun 20, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I get a sense you are not a fan?



Not I am. I really am. I am the President and Chief Executive of the fan club. We have billions of members around the world and I am so very busy today sending out stickers and badges for all of them. Just rushed off my feet right now - so time for a break. The demand is insatiable and simply won't abate. It's a tsunami.


----------



## RileyOBlimey (Jun 23, 2021)

In a show of confidence Starmer announces a resuffle after the next by election failure: Keir Starmer set to make major changes to Labour backroom team


----------



## Argonia (Jun 23, 2021)

RileyOBlimey said:


> In a show of confidence Starmer announces a resuffle after the next by election failure: Keir Starmer set to make major changes to Labour backroom team


Poor 'Sir' Starmaggedon. He can reshuffle in a frenzy like the Sorcerer's Apprentice but nothing will save him from slipping off as a footnote in a very boring history book.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 23, 2021)

RileyOBlimey said:


> In a show of confidence Starmer announces a resuffle after the next by election failure: Keir Starmer set to make major changes to Labour backroom team


Rearranging the deck chairs on the Torrey Canyon.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 23, 2021)

RileyOBlimey said:


> In a show of confidence Starmer announces a resuffle after the next by election failure: Keir Starmer set to make major changes to Labour backroom team


They'll all be given more jobs and more power as poor sir Keir sees the last dribble of his authority trickle down the urinal


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 23, 2021)

Argonia said:


> Poor 'Sir' Starmaggedon. He can reshuffle in a frenzy like the Sorcerer's Apprentice but nothing will save him from slipping off as a footnote in a very boring history book.


He'll be a whole page. Marked this page is deliberately blank.


----------



## Argonia (Jun 23, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> He'll be a whole page. Marked this page is deliberately blank.


Like the black page in Lawrence Sterne's "Tristram Shandy".






						Events Archive - The Laurence Sterne Trust
					






					www.laurencesternetrust.org.uk


----------



## RileyOBlimey (Jun 23, 2021)

Rodney’s decided what he’s lacking is Blairites: Sir Keir Starmer picks ex-Tony Blair aide as interim communications chief


----------



## Argonia (Jun 24, 2021)

RileyOBlimey said:


> Rodney’s decided what he’s lacking is Blairites: Sir Keir Starmer picks ex-Tony Blair aide as interim communications chief



Poor boy. Blair's bound for the Hague. Perhaps Starmaggedon would care to join him in the dock if he is such a fan boy?


----------



## Whagwan (Jun 24, 2021)

If I were intent on winning elections maybe I wouldn't appoint the person behind Liz Kendalls 4% Leadership Campaign.


----------



## Leighsw2 (Jun 24, 2021)

According to that BBC article linked to, apparently it's a 'smart move' - because allowing your party to be taken over by a right wing cabal that enjoys the support of less than 5% of the membership is obviously going to turn out well.....


----------



## Raheem (Jun 24, 2021)

Whagwan said:


> If I were intent on winning elections maybe I wouldn't appoint the person behind Liz Kendalls 4% Leadership Campaign.


Yes. If.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jun 24, 2021)

Leighsw2 said:


> According to that BBC article linked to, apparently it's a 'smart move' - because allowing your party to be taken over by a right wing cabal that enjoys the support of less than 5% of the membership is obviously going to turn out well.....



but with purges and resignations, those people will soon be 95% of the membership...


----------



## Shechemite (Jun 24, 2021)

Labour says calling for free social care would ‘just give Tories a stick to beat us with’
					

Labour has given the strongest sign yet that it has gone back on its new leader’s pledge that he would introduce free social care if his party won power, after a shadow cabinet member said such a p…




					www.disabilitynewsservice.com


----------



## Shechemite (Jun 24, 2021)

why any ‘disabled people’s organisation’/‘user led organisation’ would continue trying to make the Labour Party a vehicle for change is beyond me tbh (apart from maintaining relevance and membership of course).


----------



## ska invita (Jun 24, 2021)

MadeInBedlam said:


> why any ‘disabled people’s organisation’/‘user led organisation’ would continue trying to make the Labour Party a vehicle for change is beyond me tbh (apart from maintaining relevance and membership of course).


face the same dilemma everyone else does regarding state power in the UK


----------



## Shechemite (Jun 25, 2021)

Fair point. I don’t know what the answer is.


----------



## andysays (Jun 25, 2021)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Labour says calling for free social care would ‘just give Tories a stick to beat us with’
> 
> 
> Labour has given the strongest sign yet that it has gone back on its new leader’s pledge that he would introduce free social care if his party won power, after a shadow cabinet member said such a p…
> ...


Just when you think they can't sink any lower, they find a way to sink even lower


----------



## NoXion (Jun 25, 2021)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Labour says calling for free social care would ‘just give Tories a stick to beat us with’
> 
> 
> Labour has given the strongest sign yet that it has gone back on its new leader’s pledge that he would introduce free social care if his party won power, after a shadow cabinet member said such a p…
> ...



What a bunch of utter snivelling cowards.

_"Oooooo, the Tories and the papers are going to be nasty to us, uWu 😭" _

Absolutely pathetic. The Labour Party deserves to die on its arse.


----------



## Argonia (Jun 25, 2021)

Has he slipped off into history yet?


----------



## Dogsauce (Jun 27, 2021)

Capitulating to the oligarch press, a thirty year strategy that has served them well, obviously. Get a fucking spine and stand and fight for people you feeble shits.


----------



## Argonia (Jun 27, 2021)

I prefer to keep my politics secret and private (the secret ballot is one of the great advances of the Chartists) but I will probbaly vote Left Unity or maybe the Alliance for Green Socialism or the NHA Party if they have candidates with me. I gave up on the hopeless 'Labour Party' full of utter bullies and tyrants (and the odd decent Jeremy Corbyn) years ago and felt much better when I did.

 Left Unity have 17,000 followers at Facebook and 15,000 at Twitter and the NHA Party have 73,400 at Twitter. The Alliance for Green Socailism have only 153 at Twitter so a bit behind the pace. I might be lured back to the Green Party but only if they keep left like Derek Wall has worked for and Penny Kemp before she died. 4 people have heard of Penny Kemp in this abject country whilst millions should do. And nobody has heard of Derek.

I got the Greens going in Guildford by offering to stand as a candidate which I ddin't want to do (I am a writer not a politician) but they chose John Pletts instead and he got 811 votes. I chalked the streets with "Vote Green" at night and went up to people's faces and said "Vote Green" and enjoyed the campaign. Once got on the BBC national news for interrupting a cabal of Tories and shouting "Vote Green" at them which made my mother laugh when she took a break from work and saw it. The Liberal Democrats at the count called Pletts Judas which was stupid. Pletts stood again in 2015 and increased the vote share to 2,558.

Former nurse Anne Milton the bloody Tory took the seat from the Lilbearl Democrats but rebelled from the Conservative party and then stood as an Independent and got played off the chessboard into the history books.

@LeftUnityUK
@green_socialism
@NHAparty



			BBC NEWS | Election 2005 | Results | Guildford
		










						Election result for Guildford (Constituency) - MPs and Lords - UK Parliament
					

Shows the election result of the 2015 General Election.




					members.parliament.uk


----------



## teqniq (Jun 27, 2021)




----------



## magneze (Jun 27, 2021)

He's got more pressing problems. Lining up job interviews for July.


----------



## steveseagull (Jun 27, 2021)

I can think of only one reason Keith is keeping quiet on the Hancock Affair.  Tim Shipman might have more details on this.


----------



## glitch hiker (Jun 27, 2021)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Labour says calling for free social care would ‘just give Tories a stick to beat us with’
> 
> 
> Labour has given the strongest sign yet that it has gone back on its new leader’s pledge that he would introduce free social care if his party won power, after a shadow cabinet member said such a p…
> ...


"if we oppose the Tories, the Tories will criticise us"


----------



## brogdale (Jun 27, 2021)

Yeah...but, the absolute irony of that observation from the deputy:


----------



## Argonia (Jun 27, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Yeah...but, the absolute irony of that observation from the deputy:



I shot the sheriff...


----------



## Argonia (Jun 28, 2021)

Did Sir Starmaggedon fail to read Chaucer's "The Wife of Bath" when he bowed to Queen Elizabeth II and took the Order of the Bath? Or was he busy failing to read Swift's "Tale of the Tub"?









						The Wife of Bath's Tale - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				












						Order of the Bath - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				












						A Tale of a Tub - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## Argonia (Jun 29, 2021)

This thread is slipping out of the competitive Urban politics zone so I am bumping it


----------



## ruffneck23 (Jun 29, 2021)

sigh, who is going to be serving the beer then ?


----------



## Argonia (Jun 29, 2021)

ruffneck23 said:


> sigh



Finally my opponent Starmaggedon says something I agree with.


----------



## Cerv (Jun 29, 2021)

ruffneck23 said:


> sigh, who is going to be serving the beer then ?



the sizeable portion of the country who have little or no interest in football?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 29, 2021)

Cerv said:


> the sizeable portion of the country who have little or no interest in football?


Have they no interest in having time off?


----------



## ruffneck23 (Jun 29, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Have they no interest in having time off?


you just posted the same thing as I was typing...


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 29, 2021)

ruffneck23 said:


> you just posted the same thing as I was typing...


Brilliant minds


----------



## NoXion (Jun 29, 2021)

Rarely differ


----------



## Argonia (Jun 29, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Have they no interest in having time off?


Absolutely nobody has listened to my call for a 1926 General Strike until we are a democracy and a Republic. Everybody is still trooping off to work for failed pound sterling and I am scratching my head trying to understand it all.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 29, 2021)

Argonia said:


> Absolutely nobody has listened to my call for a 1926 General Strike until we are a democracy and a Republic. Everybody is still trooping off to work for failed pound sterling and I am scratching my head trying to understand it all.


We can stop the machine


----------



## BillRiver (Jun 29, 2021)

Argonia said:


> Everybody is still trooping off to work



I'm not! I am somebody!


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 29, 2021)

BillRiver said:


> I'm not! I am somebody!


You're not a number, you are a free person


----------



## Argonia (Jun 29, 2021)

BillRiver said:


> I'm not! I am somebody!


Good for you BillRiver


----------



## Argonia (Jun 29, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> You're not a number, you are a free person











						I Am (Not) a Number
					

The enormously puzzling TV series The Prisoner has developed a rapt cult following, and has often been described as “surreal” or “Kafkaes...



					www.goodreads.com


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 29, 2021)

Argonia said:


> I Am (Not) a Number
> 
> 
> The enormously puzzling TV series The Prisoner has developed a rapt cult following, and has often been described as “surreal” or “Kafkaes...
> ...


It's all available to stream or download on the internet archive


----------



## Argonia (Jun 29, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> It's all available to stream on the internet archive


Excellent.


----------



## Raheem (Jun 29, 2021)

ruffneck23 said:


> sigh, who is going to be serving the beer then ?



A useful and serious intervention from the Leader five hours before kickoff. Still nothing about Hancock, I assume?


----------



## elbows (Jun 29, 2021)

Argonia said:


> Excellent.


And now a quote from the episode 'Free For All':

Elections? In this place?!

We choose every 12 months.
Citizens have a choice.
Are you going to run?

The first chance I get.

I meant for office?

Whose?

Mine, for instance.

You have a sense of humour.

Naturally, humour is the very essence of a democratic society.


----------



## belboid (Jun 29, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> You're not a number, you are a free person


----------



## Argonia (Jun 29, 2021)

BillRiver said:


> I'm not! I am somebody!


Did you just change your avatar picture, BillRiver?


----------



## BillRiver (Jun 29, 2021)

Argonia said:


> Did you just change your avatar picture, BillRiver?



Yes. I gave myself a picture, having not had one before. Do you like it?


----------



## Chilli.s (Jun 29, 2021)

Keir Starmer?  I thought he'd stepped down or retired or something. (given up?)  You'ld have hoped an actual leader of the opposition would have had something more to say what with "i make the rules. you follow them" hancock and leaked documents at a bus stop outlining naval wargames, but no, just a vacuous comment about footie.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 29, 2021)

Chilli.s said:


> Keir Starmer?  I thought he'd stepped down or retired or something. (given up?)  You'ld have hoped an actual leader of the opposition would have had something more to say what with "i make the rules. you follow them" hancock and leaked documents at a bus stop outlining naval wargames, but no, just a vacuous comment about footie.


Sks is a shitty glory hunter


----------



## Argonia (Jun 29, 2021)

BillRiver said:


> Yes. I gave myself a picture, having not had one before. Do you like it?


I like it yes, but I don't really know what it is


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 29, 2021)

BillRiver said:


> Yes. I gave myself a picture, having not had one before. Do you like it?


Birds with open beaks terrify tories


----------



## Chilli.s (Jun 29, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Sks is a shitty glory hunter


Good title for a chapter in his future memoirs


----------



## BillRiver (Jun 29, 2021)

Argonia said:


> I like it yes, but I don't really know what it is



It's a male Swan attempting/threatening to attack me, in defence of his partner and child.

Well, mainly the open mouth of said male Swan.


----------



## BillRiver (Jun 29, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Birds with open beaks terrify tories



Scared me too, and I'm not a tory.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 29, 2021)

Chilli.s said:


> Good title for a chapter in his future memoirs


His future memoirs will be scratched on a wall in a grytviken cell


----------



## Argonia (Jun 29, 2021)

BillRiver said:


> It's a male Swan attempting/threatening to attack me, in defence of his partner and child.
> 
> Well, mainly the open mouth of said male Swan.


Ever since I was told they can break your arm I give them a wide berth. Imperiously beautiful to look at but I'm not getiing into a scrap with one.


----------



## BillRiver (Jun 29, 2021)

Argonia said:


> Ever since I was told they can break your arm I give them a wide berth. Imperiously beautiful to look at but I'm not getiing into a scrap with one.



Very wise.


----------



## Chilli.s (Jun 29, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> His future memoirs will be scratched on a wall in a grytviken cell


We live in hope


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Jun 29, 2021)

Argonia said:


> Ever since I was told they can break your arm


I've heard that's a myth


----------



## BillRiver (Jun 29, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> I've heard that's a myth



I don't care, I'm still shit scared of cautious around them.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Jun 29, 2021)

BillRiver said:


> I don't care, I'm still shit scared of cautious around them.


That's undertsandable I guess. I don't think I'd want to mess with one either tbh.


----------



## Cerv (Jun 29, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Have they no interest in having time off?


shrug
people say the same about xmas day & every other public holiday.


----------



## quiet guy (Jun 29, 2021)

Is he still breathing cause he hasn't said anything substantial about anything?


----------



## Argonia (Jun 29, 2021)

quiet guy said:


> Is he still breathing cause he hasn't said anything substantial about anything?











						Breathless (1960 film) - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## brogdale (Jun 29, 2021)

_Come on, the footballers!

_


----------



## elbows (Jun 29, 2021)

In his case the agony in 96 was down to people taking the piss out of him for still having a full pint by the time the game ended.


----------



## Raheem (Jun 29, 2021)

brogdale said:


> _Come on, the footballers!
> 
> View attachment 275994_



Ask him whether he paid for the ticket.


----------



## Shechemite (Jun 30, 2021)

Come back weird old allotment man. All is forgiven.


----------



## Argonia (Jun 30, 2021)

elbows said:


> In his case the agony in 96 was down to people taking the piss out of him for still having a full pint by the time the game ended.


I took the trouble to look up Sir Starmaggedon in 1996 and it was all going quite well with his involvement with the McLibel trial before his head got turned by war criminal Anthony Charles Lynton Blair.


----------



## elbows (Jun 30, 2021)

I await historical footage of his Kraftwerk low-budget tribute band.


----------



## Argonia (Jun 30, 2021)

elbows said:


> I await historical footage of his Kraftwerk low-budget tribute band.


I await Starmaggedon's glorious Autobahn project for the one in 20 who can't get a job (or 2,6 million in April 2021 claiming Jobseeker's or Universal Credit) - nearly as high as the 3 million unemployed during Thatcher's New Right revolution based on Friedman and Hayek criticised by the 1981 letter by 361 economists.









						Unemployment rate: How many people are out of work?
					

The pandemic has seen many people lose their jobs - but not as many as expected



					www.bbc.co.uk
				






			https://assets.cambridge.org/97811070/42933/excerpt/9781107042933_excerpt.pdf


----------



## bemused (Jun 30, 2021)

Would changing the leader do anything?


----------



## Argonia (Jun 30, 2021)

bemused said:


> Would changing the leader do anything?


Sasaferrato favours Burnham but I don't. I gave up on Labour a long time ago (when Corbyn was hated by hundreds of MPs) and have a new home with Left Unity, the Alliance for Green Socialism, the National Health Action party, TUSC and the Greens.


----------



## bemused (Jun 30, 2021)

Argonia said:


> Sasaferrato favours Burnham but I don't. I gave up on Labour a long time ago (when Corbyn was hated by hundreds of MPs) and have a new home with Left Unity, the Alliance for Green Socialism, the National Health Action party, TUSC and the Greens.


Boris is a political performance artist I'm not Burnham is a good counter to that.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 30, 2021)

bemused said:


> Boris is a political performance artist I'm not Burnham is a good counter to that.


should be a full stop before burnham


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 30, 2021)

Argonia said:


> I await Starmaggedon's glorious Autobahn project for the one in 20 who can't get a job (or 2,6 million in April 2021 claiming Jobseeker's or Universal Credit) - nearly as high as the 3 million unemployed during Thatcher's New Right revolution based on Friedman and Hayek criticised by the 1981 letter by 361 economists.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


the glorious project for our age is the grytviken - buenos aires friendship bridge, which will test british engineering to the limit as it bestrides the southern ocean like a colossus. its workforce is not projected to reach beyond 30,000 at any one time.


----------



## Argonia (Jun 30, 2021)

Alexander Boris is no Marina Abramovic. 









						Performance art - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## RileyOBlimey (Jul 1, 2021)

From the Telegraph today: “On Wednesday, Sir Keir’s spokesman said he would not stand aside until after the next election.”








						Keir Starmer: I won’t quit if Labour loses Batley by-election
					

Seventy per cent of Labour members say Andy Burnham would do a better job




					www.telegraph.co.uk
				




So, he states he‘ll step aside once he’s ensured another Tory Government. Nice one Rodney.


----------



## andysays (Jul 1, 2021)

RileyOBlimey said:


> From the Telegraph today: “On Wednesday, Sir Keir’s spokesman said he would not stand aside until after the next election.”
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Just out of interest, who do you think would become Labour leader if Starmer did quit now* and, just as importantly, in what way would that be an improvement?

* especially given that the person apparently favoured by 70% of members isn't currently eligible to stand, even assuming he wanted to right now.


----------



## Argonia (Jul 1, 2021)

RileyOBlimey said:


> From the Telegraph today: “On Wednesday, Sir Keir’s spokesman said he would not stand aside until after the next election.”
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What a plonker.


----------



## ska invita (Jul 1, 2021)

andysays said:


> Just out of interest, who do you think would become Labour leader if Starmer did quit now* and, just as importantly, in what way would that be an improvement?
> 
> * especially given that the person apparently favoured by 70% of members isn't currently eligible to stand, even assuming he wanted to right now.


It doesn't really matter who replaces Starmer at this point. The point right now is to punish Starmer and his ideological supporters.
With him gone there would be an election and the membership would vote on who is the best of the candidates who steps up.
The winner of that contest, if they have any sense, should learn lessons from Starmer's abject failures and the will of voters.
If they repeat the same mistakes they too will be binned. The more the Labour right humiliate themselves in failure, the better. If they have the next five leaders and they all are rejected by the electorate, so be it, thats a process that needs to happen.
This is how the occasional-vote democratic model functions.

National elections dont mean much at the moment - Labour is so far away from contesting it seriously - we are in an effective one-party state  (as opposed to that utopia of a two party state!!), and for the forseeable. For a variety of reasons democracy in the UK is effectively dead. So on a voting level the most important battlefield is within Labour itself.


----------



## Argonia (Jul 1, 2021)

ska invita said:


> It doesn't really matter who replaces Starmer at this point. The point right now is to punish Starmer and his political supporters.
> With him gone there would be an election and the membership would vote on who is the best of the candidates who steps up.
> The winner of that contest, if they have any sense, should learn lessons from Starmer's abject failures and the will of voters.
> If they repeat the same mistakes they too will be binned. The more the Labour right humiliate themselves in failure, the better. If they have the next five leaders and they all are rejected by the electorate, so be it, thats a process that needs to happen.
> ...


I note there are still Socialists within Labour like Corbyn, Sultana and Momentum battling away but I just gave up the whole thing was such a sorry mess.


----------



## ska invita (Jul 1, 2021)

This seems very likely


----------



## Argonia (Jul 1, 2021)

ska invita said:


> View attachment 276192


The plot thickens...


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jul 1, 2021)

ska invita said:


> View attachment 276192
> 
> This seems very likely



If so her abject failure to take a stand against Starmer's purges and government bootlicking will, and should, cost her.


----------



## ska invita (Jul 1, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> If so her abject failure to take a stand against Starmer's purges and government bootlicking will, and should, cost her.


shes definitely lost a lot of good will with the membership, but the general public dont know who she is, and even less about her record (my parents who get all news from TV has never heard of her, for example).
some people have defended her as having been "just loyal to the leadership". since that leadership also stabbed her in the back, she might've learned something recently. i doubt it though.

she's either been spineless this last year, or shes shown her true colours. based on people talking well of her in the past (including smokeandsteam iirc), it may just be that she's been spineless and trying hard to please. that would be a very generous reading of it.  you have to question if she has any principles left, and if so what they are. i think we're about to find out. Surely Starmer is toast.


----------



## Argonia (Jul 1, 2021)

ska invita said:


> shes definitely lost a lot of good will with the membership, but the general public dont know who she is, and even less about her record (my parents who gets all news from TV has never heard of her, for example).
> some people have defended her as having been "just loyal to the leadership". since that leadership also stabbed her in the back, she might've learned something recently. i doubt it though.
> 
> she's either been spineless this last year, or shes shown her true colours. based on people talking well of her in the past (including smokeandsteam iirc), it may just be that she's been spineless and trying hard to please. that would be a very generous reading of it.  you have to question if she has any principles left, and if so what they are. i think we're about to find out. Surely Starmer is toast.


I don't have a toaster in my council flat in Woking. I have a microwave only which broke twice. I had a small stove my mum sent me but it tripped the electicity so I had to bin it. I miss toast and strawberry jam like mad.


----------



## Shechemite (Jul 1, 2021)

Potato cakes are alright in the microwave


----------



## Argonia (Jul 1, 2021)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Potato cakes are alright in the microwave


I'll try them. I have even been told by my mum that I can cook pasta in one but I haven't tried yet. I think it takes ten minutes and I'm a bit nervous about it breaking yet again and having to get on to the Curry's website again.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jul 1, 2021)

Yvette Coopers name ws doing the rounds yesterday, terrible idea (the welfare reform act damns her for start) but she ticks the right boxes for sensibles who get rock solid over select committees.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Jul 1, 2021)

Step forward Owen Smith and his mr whippy van surely?


----------



## emanymton (Jul 1, 2021)

andysays said:


> Just out of interest, who do you think would become Labour leader if Starmer did quit now* and, just as importantly, in what way would that be an improvement?
> 
> * especially given that the person apparently favoured by 70% of members isn't currently eligible to stand, even assuming he wanted to right now.


He would be replaced by someone just as shit, but it would still be hilarious. 

More seriously I don't think the main focus of Stammer and the upper echelons of the Labour Party at the moment is winning elections. Their focus for the moment is still on purging the left securing their own positions and making Labour be accepted as capital friendly again. I don’t think they are measuring their success by election results. However since their whole arguments is that this is the only way to win elections then a string of shit results must hamper their main project. I think.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 1, 2021)

The right-wing press have these clowns jumping every which way...



Their messaging, rebuttals and media are just so shite.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 1, 2021)

She been caught talking to Corbyn again?


----------



## RileyOBlimey (Jul 1, 2021)

andysays said:


> Just out of interest, who do you think would become Labour leader if Starmer did quit now* and, just as importantly, in what way would that be an improvement?
> 
> * especially given that the person apparently favoured by 70% of members isn't currently eligible to stand, even assuming he wanted to right now.



The mechanisms are a question for Labour bureaucrats.

The only people who like Starmer that I’ve met are London based Liberals. Everyone else thinks he’s, at best, empty. Burnham has demonstrated he can oppose Government policy and seems to have generated support for his efforts as mayor. His politics are underwhelming but he comes across as human. Being recognisable as being a member of our species is a pretty low bar but that‘s the state of the Labour party.


----------



## RileyOBlimey (Jul 1, 2021)

DotCommunist said:


> Yvette Coopers name ws doing the rounds yesterday, terrible idea (the welfare reform act damns her for start) but she ticks the right boxes for sensibles who get rock solid over select committees.



She doesn’t pass the “Are the human” test.


----------



## RileyOBlimey (Jul 1, 2021)

RileyOBlimey said:


> Yvette Coopers name ws doing the rounds yesterday, terrible idea (the welfare reform act damns her for start) but she ticks the right boxes for sensibles who get rock solid over select committees



If E.T. fucked a meercat and sent their offspring to Oxford to do PPE.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 1, 2021)

two sheds said:


> She been caught talking to Corbyn again?


Nah, Murdoch initiated this story for B&S BE-day.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 1, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Nah, Murdoch initiated this story for B&S BE-day.
> 
> View attachment 276259


i see you've taken that from the famous murdoch paper the guardian


----------



## brogdale (Jul 1, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> i see you've taken that from the famous murdoch paper the guardian


Yes, the Guardian reporting on a 'report'...who'd have thunk it?

The rather coy link was in red:


----------



## DotCommunist (Jul 1, 2021)

RileyOBlimey said:


> She doesn’t pass the “Are the human” test.


would fail a voight-kampff for sure


----------



## TopCat (Jul 1, 2021)

The Labour leader is expected to come out fighting after the byelection, with a string of public appearances and policy announcements. “We know we have work to do,” said a party source.


----------



## steveseagull (Jul 1, 2021)

TopCat said:


> The Labour leader is expected to come out fighting after the byelection, with a string of public appearances and policy announcements. “We know we have work to do,” said a party source.


Is this the policy blitz which was promised about eight months ago? It's going to be more recovery bonds isn't it?


----------



## steveseagull (Jul 1, 2021)

Just watched Newsnight. I want to be the first on record to state that Starmzy should go. Not only that, as a former leader of the party he needs to be expelled.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 1, 2021)

Starmer will doubtless say that Labour doesn't deserve to be elected


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jul 1, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Starmer will doubtless say that Labour doesn't deserve to be elected



"if we tell people enough that they were wrong to vote for us in the past, they might vote for us in the future"

or something like that

and as i've said before, the blairites take a bad poll / election result as a sign that they aren't being right wing enough.

meh.


----------



## steveseagull (Jul 1, 2021)

"Labour did not deserve to be elected last night. We are extremely racist, our fiscal policies cannot be trusted and no one should vote for us. We are going to change all that by having another reboot then we will not deserve to win the next byelection because we are extremely racist, our fiscal policies cannot be trusted and no one should vote for us".  

_goes on to blame Corbyn_


----------



## Wilf (Jul 1, 2021)

Well, all this is about marginal degrees of shitness in an overall sea of excrement for Labour, but sheesh... Rayner sounded okay on the way up and would have been an obvious foil to johnson, but then she's utterly uninspiring and nowadays has the look of a calculating politician.  Burham?  Uninspiring politics, to say the least, but probably has a decent mixture of 'northern', sounds _fairly _human whilst not frightening the middle classes too much.  He might do all right if they could find a winnable by election to lob him into.  None of that is about getting any kind of left advance or working class politics, it's just about the outside possibility of labour getting back in the game. Single digit poll deficits perhaps.

The over ridding issue for me is that Corbyn has been and gone without achieving anything.  All the members joined, did nothing to build anything beyond the party and have left in droves. The Labour left was in retreat and that was what defined the coming of kieth.  kieth's been a shitting disaster and no doubt disappointed the right. But that doesn't really swing things back to the left. Labour seems to be in a position of 'no politics' at the moment and there's no 'project' in play in the party.  And we are still in a position  where a party that was able to come up pro-public sector and welfare state policies might actually do okay.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 1, 2021)

True enough, but the rules were made by the right wing. Not surprising that the left didn't take over.

Eta: that most of the membership, which was more left wing than the party apparatchiks, didn't take over.


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 2, 2021)

In the case of my patch Lambeth the rules are definitely made by the right.

My experience of local Labour Party members is that they never were Blairites.

Somehow this Blairite faction managed to gain control of important things like who gets selected as a Council candidate. Despite new membership they made sure, with their tight control of the local party bureaucracy, that only candidates would be Progressives. 

Only hiccup was choice of Bell Ribeiro-Addy MP candidate for Streatham. Council weren't happy about that.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jul 2, 2021)

ska invita said:


> It doesn't really matter who replaces Starmer at this point. The point right now is to punish Starmer and his ideological supporters.
> With him gone there would be an election and the membership would vote on who is the best of the candidates who steps up.
> The winner of that contest, if they have any sense, should learn lessons from Starmer's abject failures and the will of voters.
> If they repeat the same mistakes they too will be binned. The more the Labour right humiliate themselves in failure, the better. If they have the next five leaders and they all are rejected by the electorate, so be it, thats a process that needs to happen.
> ...


Following this logic you should be supporting people to vote Tory in Con-Lab elections (prior to any GE).


----------



## Argonia (Jul 2, 2021)

The Alliance for Green Socialism got 104 votes. Work to do.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 2, 2021)

Keir Starmer hails Kim Leadbeater as the future of Labour
					

Party leader contrasts new Batley and Spen MP with Boris Johnson, ‘who basks in his own dishonesty’




					www.theguardian.com
				




She's in charge of the magic money tree.


----------



## ruffneck23 (Jul 2, 2021)

wrong thread.


----------



## TopCat (Jul 4, 2021)

The Blairites are circling. Who would be their big hitter from the right? 








						After Batley and Spen, Keir Starmer is drinking in the second chance saloon | Andrew Rawnsley
					

Labour’s wafer-thin win gives its leader a bit more time to prove he can turn things around. It’s an opportunity he can’t afford to squander




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## TopCat (Jul 4, 2021)

I just can’t think of a single senior figure from the labour centre right who wouldn’t get entrails thrown at them.


----------



## Argonia (Jul 4, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I just can’t think of a single senior figure from the labour centre right who wouldn’t get entrails thrown at them.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 4, 2021)

A policy arrives from Labour.

Pledging to take the opportunity to review public procurement rules - one of the major benefits of Brexit - to ensure that ‘social value’: jobs, tax revenues, skills and even the demands and requirement of an industrial strategy are fully taken into account when spending public money is important. This could even open up the question of state aid for critically important sectors.

Also interesting to see Rachel Reeves on Marr talking about creating ‘jobs you can raise a family on’ and mentioning union rates and quality work. A direct lift from Biden’s infrastructure plan.

Significantly, this would pose major problems for hedge funds and other neoliberal ghouls waiting for the public sector/spending bail out via procurement. Rules that demand a living wage, union negotiated rates, skill targets and requiring them to show ‘where the money goes’ would be a very welcome move. 









						Keir Starmer takes on Tories with ‘buy British’ economic plan
					

Buoyant Labour sets out post-Brexit vision promising that more public contracts will go to UK companies




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## ska invita (Jul 4, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> A policy arrives from Labour.
> 
> Pledging to take the opportunity to review public procurement rules - one of the major benefits of Brexit - to ensure that ‘social value’: jobs, tax revenues, skills and even the demands and requirement of an industrial strategy are fully taken into account when spending public money is important. This could even open up the question of state aid for critically important sectors.
> 
> ...


will be interesting to see the reality - Tories have been signalling they will do this too - but the Breixt deal, from my limited understanding, hasnt really negated 'state aid' rules...supposedly full hard brexit WTO rules also have similar severe limitations on it. 

for example this








						Wind turbine clash adds to UK-EU post-Brexit tensions
					

Exclusive: Brussels is concerned that British government is favouring domestic firms, in breach of trade deal




					www.theguardian.com
				



is already deemed to be a breach of the trade agreement


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 4, 2021)

ska invita said:


> will be interesting to see the reality - Tories have been signalling they will do this too - but the Breixt deal, from my limited understanding, hasnt really negated 'state aid' rules..



Agreed that the detail is important. Agree also that the deal means that the EU will be the first to howl if a serious strategy on procurement/social value/state aid meant the UK became unaligned with the free market EU model. But that’s a debate that needs to be had


----------



## ska invita (Jul 4, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Agreed that the detail is important. Agree also that the deal means that the EU will be the first to howl if a serious strategy on procurement/social value/state aid meant the UK became unaligned with the free market EU model. But that’s a debate that needs to be had


sure...it also comes down though to what people were saying before that state aid was always possible to a degree, though the UK both didnt want it to ever happen, and played a big part in creating a culture within the EU against it

ive no idea of the reality of that, when reading about it a while back there was a lot of contradictory stuff out there.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 4, 2021)

ska invita said:


> will be interesting to see the reality - Tories have been signalling they will do this too - but the Breixt deal, from my limited understanding, hasnt really negated 'state aid' rules...supposedly full hard brexit WTO rules also have similar severe limitations on it.
> 
> for example this
> 
> ...


Soz which body has determined that's an actual breach of the trade agreement?


----------



## ska invita (Jul 4, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Soz which body has determined that's an actual breach of the trade agreement?


In the article it says the European Commission consider it to be
They would have to take it to court i expect for it to be "determined"
There are already a few court cases lined up it seems


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 4, 2021)

ska invita said:


> In the article it says the European Commission
> They would have to take it to court i expect for it to be "determined"
> There a few court cases lined up it seems


The article doesn't say what you think it does.


----------



## andysays (Jul 4, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I just can’t think of a single senior figure from the labour centre right who wouldn’t get entrails thrown at them.


Preferably their own.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 4, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> The article doesn't say what you think it does.


seemed a fair statement, what does the article say that's different?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 4, 2021)

two sheds said:


> seemed a fair statement, what does the article say that's different?


The EC said this could breach the agreement, not that it did breach the agreement which is ska's claim in post 4929


----------



## two sheds (Jul 4, 2021)

Depends how you read it though - could be read that the EU deemed it had breached the agreement and so were taking UK to court, which he did clarify in the next post.


----------



## Argonia (Jul 5, 2021)

Has he gone yet? Any news?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 5, 2021)

Argonia said:


> Has he gone yet? Any news?


sir keir starmer's spokesperson today confirmed that the labour leader had gone shortly after he woke up this morning. 'keir starmer would like to confirm that he went this morning and although his urine was yellow it was not strongly so', they said.


----------



## Argonia (Jul 5, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> sir keir starmer's spokesperson today confirmed that the labour leader had gone shortly after he woke up this morning. 'keir starmer would like to confirm that he went this morning and although his urine was yellow it was not strongly so', they said.


I had a memory from Latin at school that Martial had once written an epigram to his enemy saying "you clean your teeth with piss" but a quick Google and I can't find it so it might be a false memory syndrome like Kurt Waldheim


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 5, 2021)

Argonia said:


> I had a memory from Latin at school that Martial had once written an epigram to his enemy saying "you clean your teeth with piss" but a quick Google and I can't find it so it might be a false memory syndrome like Kurt Waldheim


i think it was martin luther who wrote to an opponent to tell them that their theses were faeces


----------



## brogdale (Jul 5, 2021)

Looks like a complete open goal. Surely, even Starmer could score this time?


----------



## ska invita (Jul 5, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Looks like a complete open goal. Surely, even Starmer could score this time?


----------



## Argonia (Jul 5, 2021)

ska invita said:


> View attachment 277069


Sir Starmaggedon in action. The new Ferenc Puskas.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 5, 2021)

Fuksake...missed this yesterday; almost indistinguishable...


----------



## Argonia (Jul 6, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Fuksake...missed this yesterday; almost indistinguishable...
> 
> View attachment 277078


Union Jack worshippers. I hated boy scouts as we had to sing songs to that ghastly pendant but fortunately no nonce got his hands on me. I remember one time some guy with weird eyes swimming in strange glasses wanted to buy me an ice cream at the Guildford show in Stoke Park but I clocked him and legged it back home.









						Labour left warns Keir Starmer not to wrap the party in union flag
					

Report recommends ‘patriotic’ rebranding to win back voters




					www.independent.co.uk
				












						Boy Scouts of America: Almost 100,000 make sexual abuse compensation claims
					

Almost 100,000 alleged victims of sexual abuse within the Boy Scouts of America have come forward.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## Argonia (Jul 6, 2021)

Sir Starmaggedon has 1.1 million confused souls following him at Twitter. He has not a single contribution to make to this dreadful and poorly governed society.

@Keir_Starmer

I have finally made the landmark of 600 with a woman in Lebanon who wants sex with lots of men.

@devereuxmatthew


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Jul 6, 2021)

Argonia said:


> Union Jack worshippers.


The correct term is flag-shaggers


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Jul 6, 2021)

Argonia said:


> Union Jack worshippers. I hated boy scouts as we had to sing songs to that ghastly pendant but fortunately no nonce got his hands on me. I remember one time some guy with weird eyes swimming in strange glasses wanted to buy me an ice cream at the Guildford show in Stoke Park but I clocked him and legged it back home.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


We had a load of flag-shaggers in town on Armed Forces Day where I live. I did wonder why it was all slippery around the war memorial.


----------



## Argonia (Jul 6, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> We had a load of flag-shaggers in town on Armed Forces Day where I live. I did wonder why it was all slippery around the war memorial.


Armed Forces Day was one of my least favourite of New Labour's ghastly authoritarian measures. If people want to join up and go and die horrific deaths in foreign climes for no reason whatsoever they should jolly well invade Mars on one of Elon Musk's spaceships and leave the rest of us in peace.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 6, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Fuksake...missed this yesterday; almost indistinguishable...
> 
> View attachment 277078











						Jeremy Corbyn: Bring manufacturing 'back to Britain'
					

Labour will seek to ensure "we build things here that for too long have been built abroad".



					www.bbc.com


----------



## brogdale (Jul 6, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Jeremy Corbyn: Bring manufacturing 'back to Britain'
> 
> 
> Labour will seek to ensure "we build things here that for too long have been built abroad".
> ...


Not known as the left party of capital for nothing.

That said, there were/are obvious nuanced differences between the presentation of this 'British Jobs' policy by the left and right factions.
Where Corbyn spoke of procurement for nationalised/state run industries, public benefit and manufacturing, Starmer talks of making British businesses thrive, growing fintech and media.

Starmer very obviously apeing the Tories.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Jul 6, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Jeremy Corbyn: Bring manufacturing 'back to Britain'
> 
> 
> Labour will seek to ensure "we build things here that for too long have been built abroad".
> ...


But he's not calling for the workers to seize the means of production and distribution (and never has done). With his plan the bosses would still be in charge and the capitalist system unharmed and still firmly in control.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 6, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Fuksake...missed this yesterday; almost indistinguishable...
> 
> View attachment 277078


this is the modern 'backing britain' campaign

but sadly without its most eloquent spokesman, sir bruce forsyth


----------



## Argonia (Jul 6, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> this is the modern 'backing britain' campaign
> 
> but sadly without its most eloquent spokesman, sir bruce forsyth



I'd be bricking myself riding on the Thames on that bicycle contraption. Can't swim for toffee.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 6, 2021)

Argonia said:


> I'd be bricking myself riding on the Thames on that bicycle contraption. Can't swim for toffee.


stay near the bank so someone can throw you one of those rings


----------



## Argonia (Jul 6, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> this is the modern 'backing britain' campaign
> 
> but sadly without its most eloquent spokesman, sir bruce forsyth



Wasn;t there pretty good employment in 1968? Not quite full but not bad. I am trying to Google a figure but finding it difficult. Not like the approx 2.6 million today (higher if hidden unemployment is added in and if you include all the poor souls hawking themselves off at places like Chaturbate to earn meagre shekels)









						Unemployment in the United Kingdom - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 6, 2021)

Argonia said:


> Wasn;t there pretty good employment in 1968? Not quite full but not bad. I am trying to Google a figure but finding it difficult. Not like the approx 2.6 million today (higher if hidden unemployment is added in)
> 
> 
> 
> ...







__





						Unemployment (Hansard, 1 July 1968)
					

Unemployment (Hansard, 1 July 1968)



					api.parliament.uk


----------



## two sheds (Jul 6, 2021)

Argonia said:


> Wasn;t there pretty good employment in 1968? Not quite full but not bad. I am trying to Google a figure but finding it difficult. Not like the approx 2.6 million today (higher if hidden unemployment is added in)
> 
> 
> 
> ...






includes people moved to sickness benefit etc.


----------



## Argonia (Jul 6, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> View attachment 277137
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Christ I want to go back in a time machine. My mum finished at St Anne's Oxford (where I went) doing PPE in 1969.


----------



## Argonia (Jul 6, 2021)

two sheds said:


> View attachment 277138


Christ what joy the Hayekian-Friedmanite-Randite New Right revolution was.  From Wikipedia:

It has been retrospectively estimated that the official measure for calculating the unemployment rate was changed at least 29 times between 1979 and 1989.[22] Later in the decade, the government began instructing doctors with the National Health Service to find ways where they could to diagnose unemployed patients with illnesses or injuries resulting from their previous work so they could receive sickness or invalidity benefit and thus no longer be considered unemployed


----------



## Argonia (Jul 6, 2021)

We've had it before but worth repeating - 40% black youth unemployment.









						Black youth unemployment rate of 40% similar to time of Brixton riots, data shows
					

Guardian analysis shows young black workers hit disproportionately hard by Covid pandemic




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## brogdale (Jul 6, 2021)

Argonia said:


> We've had it before but worth repeating - 40% black youth unemployment.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


How can that be when...


----------



## Argonia (Jul 6, 2021)

brogdale said:


> How can that be when...
> 
> View attachment 277139


Quick Google:

People from BAME (*black*, Asian and minority ethnic) backgrounds constitute only 14% of the general *population* in *England* and Wales, but make up 25% of its *prison population*.





__





						United Kingdom prison population - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 6, 2021)

Argonia said:


> Christ what joy the Hayekian-Friedmanite-Randite New Right revolution was.  From Wikipedia:
> 
> It has been retrospectively estimated that the official measure for calculating the unemployment rate was changed at least 29 times between 1979 and 1989.[22] Later in the decade, the government began instructing doctors with the National Health Service to find ways where they could to diagnose unemployed patients with illnesses or injuries resulting from their previous work so they could receive sickness or invalidity benefit and thus no longer be considered unemployed


not to mention that everyone on new deal being sent on training courses and work placements were not considered unemployed


----------



## Argonia (Jul 6, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> not to mention that everyone on new deal being sent on training courses and work placements were not considered unemployed


I reckon unemployment at a guess is probably something like 4 or 5 million and if you include people hawking themselves off on porn sites for pennies maybe 6


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 6, 2021)

Argonia said:


> I reckon unemployment at a guess is probably something like 4 or 5 million and if you include people hawking themselves off on porn sites for pennies maybe 6


maybe even more


----------



## Argonia (Jul 6, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> maybe even more


Sadly so


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 6, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> But he's not calling for the workers to seize the means of production and distribution (and never has done). With his plan the bosses would still be in charge and the capitalist system unharmed and still firmly in control.



Labour never has. The nationalisation programme of the 1945 and 1964 Governments largely left the extant management structures in place. Collective bargaining was largely concerned with productivity/pay arrangements and management prerogative largely unhindered. However, in the current period even a return to that type of social democratic arrangement would be a step in the right direction.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 6, 2021)

and jobs used to be pretty secure and with pensions. Isn't it incredible how after all the efficiency improvements we've had since 1979 businesses can afford to pay their staff so much less.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 6, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> But he's not calling for the workers to seize the means of production and distribution (and never has done). With his plan the bosses would still be in charge and the capitalist system unharmed and still firmly in control.


All or nothing eh?


----------



## Argonia (Jul 6, 2021)

two sheds said:


> and jobs used to be pretty secure and with pensions. Isn't it incredible how after all the efficiency improvements we've had since 1979 businesses can afford to pay their staff so much less.


Basic state pension has to be defended like crazy. Way things are going there won't be anything when we retire at 87 and we'll all end up making puppets out of string in Oliver Twist workhouses and little silver trinket George Crosses for the 1.5 million NHS workers.

The most you can currently get is £137.60 per week.









						The basic State Pension
					

How to claim the basic State Pension and how it's calculated - for men born before 6 April 1951 and women born before 6 April 1953.




					www.gov.uk
				




(Although I have personally lost my faith in the pound sterling so not relying on that too much anymore)


----------



## two sheds (Jul 6, 2021)

Pretty well all the MPs have grown up having had the advantages of full employment, NHS, free education, unemployment benefit (not that more than a few will ever have needed it) and low rents. Pulling up the drawbridge now to exclude the young. Utter cunts the lot of them that agree with this.


----------



## Argonia (Jul 6, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Pretty well all the MPs have grown up having had the advantages of full employment, NHS, free education, unemployment benefit (not that more than a few will ever have needed it) and low rents. Pulling up the drawbridge now to exclude the young. Utter cunts the lot of them that agree with this.


I used to watch the Parliament channel a bit when I lived in Vauxhall (BBC 232 I think) and it made me laugh like a drain to see the ludicrous proceedings in that 18th century chamber with all those silly conventions like "right honourable gentleman" and Black Rod at the door and all the rest of it. None of them can make a single speech and there isn't an ounce of Ciceronian oratory or rhetoric in the whole shambolic place.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 6, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Pretty well all the MPs have grown up having had the advantages of full employment, NHS, free education, unemployment benefit (not that more than a few will ever have needed it) and low rents. Pulling up the drawbridge now to exclude the young. Utter cunts the lot of them that agree with this.


In the Guardian this morning there is a long piece about the culture war off the back of polling by Frank Luntz. Buried away in the drone about taking the knee, performative politics, wokeism etc are these two nuggets:

"One reason for the divide appears to be a sense that everyday concerns have been forgotten. Asked what areas politicians understand least well, the top choice was the cost of living, with _*four of the top five connected to economic wellbeing"*_.

"Another question asked people to nominate the *greatest divide* in modern Britain. For Labour voters the *top answer was rich against poo*r"

Put simply, any party that focused squarely on economic justice and reducing economic inequality (both of which also connect and speak to people across various other 'divides' the piece and the Guradian seem more interested in: racial, spatial, age etc) would enjoy a massive welter of support. But as the Luntz research goes on to note.... "In the most visceral response when voters were asked whether their overall attitude towards politicians could be summarised as “fuck them all”, 61% agreed, with only 20% actively disagreeing".


----------



## brogdale (Jul 6, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> In the Guardian this morning there is a long piece about the culture war off the back of polling by Frank Luntz. Buried away in the drone about taking the knee, performative politics, wokeism etc are these two nuggets:
> 
> "One reason for the divide appears to be a sense that everyday concerns have been forgotten. Asked what areas politicians understand least well, the top choice was the cost of living, with _*four of the top five connected to economic wellbeing"*_.
> 
> ...


Good stuff.

Some would point to Corbyn's 2017 % vote share as some degree of corroboration that addressing economic justice/equality results in popular support, but that 61% "fuck them all" seems eminently reasonable given the present convergent offer and Starmer's political transvestism.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 6, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Good stuff.
> 
> Some would point to Corbyn's 2017 % vote share as some degree of corroboration that addressing economic justice/equality results in popular support, but that 61% "fuck them all" seems eminently reasonable given the present convergent offer and Starmer's political transvestism.



I'd argue that 61% feels like an underestimation. In my work/family/mates circle I'd say it's 90% plus. People just think they are all venal wankers. They've got a point...


----------



## TopCat (Jul 6, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I'd argue that 61% feels like an underestimation. In my work/family/mates circle I'd say it's 90% plus. People just think they are all venal wankers. They've got a point...


If it was a politician getting roughed up in the park rather than Professor Whitty the nation would have cheered.


----------



## Argonia (Jul 6, 2021)

More footage of Sir Starmaggedon in action. The new Lev Yashin.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 6, 2021)

TopCat said:


> If it was a politician getting roughed up in the park rather than Professor Whitty the nation would have cheered.


if it was a politician getting roughed up in the park a load of people would have joined in


----------



## two sheds (Jul 6, 2021)

Goalkeeper was unlucky - bounced just before he kicked it


----------



## Argonia (Jul 6, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Goalkeeper was unlucky - bounced just before he kicked it


Maybe. This one of Sir Starmaggedon defending was no fault but his own..


----------



## Serge Forward (Jul 7, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> All or nothing eh?


Yes!


----------



## Argonia (Jul 7, 2021)

Sir Keir Starmaggedon and Angela Rayner captured this morning figuring out their latest brilliant policy by the BBC


----------



## Argonia (Jul 8, 2021)

Sir Starmaggedon is on a jolly two day jaunt to a Belfast pub instead of doing a stroke of work. Hope he flew there to boost his carbon footprint like Alexander Boris flying to Cornwall for the G7









						NI Protocol: PM is taking people in NI as fools - Starmer
					

The Labour leader was talking about the new Brexit arrangements during a two-day visit to NI.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## TopCat (Jul 9, 2021)

The Guardian view on Keir Starmer’s party: reset and clarify what Labour is about | Editorial
					

Editorial: The opposition can’t just offer healthier versions of Tory policies. The party needs to be in the business of serious change in a radical way




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 9, 2021)

TopCat said:


> The Guardian view on Keir Starmer’s party: reset and clarify what Labour is about | Editorial
> 
> 
> Editorial: The opposition can’t just offer healthier versions of Tory policies. The party needs to be in the business of serious change in a radical way
> ...


But not too radical . Guardian calls for a root and branch window dressing .


----------



## teqniq (Jul 9, 2021)

Funny that. His predecessor was offering something along those lines but for some strange reason it was anathema to the Graun


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 9, 2021)

teqniq said:


> Funny that. His predecessor was offering something along those lines but for some strange reason it was anathema to the Graun


Obviously he’s not catching the eye of the Guardian readership


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Jul 9, 2021)

teqniq said:


> Funny that. His predecessor was offering something along those lines but for some strange reason it was anathema to the Graun


exactly: the Guardian are tax-dodging hypocritical scum who knifed Corbyn in the back and front....Apart from that I like them  (no not really)


----------



## teqniq (Jul 9, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> But not too radical . Guardian calls for a root and branch window dressing .


Indeed so, it offers absolutely nothing of any substance whatsoever. It really is second rate shite.


----------



## Argonia (Jul 9, 2021)

teqniq said:


> Indeed so, it offers absolutely nothing of any substance whatsoever. It really is second rate shite.


The Grauniad do nothing whatsoever for the 5.5 million on Universal Credit and don't bother fishing the best writers out of the JobCenre PLus and menial jobs. Just like Sir Starmageddon, the new war criminal Blair.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 9, 2021)

teqniq said:


> Indeed so, it offers absolutely nothing of any substance whatsoever. It really is second rate shite.


Wrestles with its conscience on a daily basis and always comes down on the side that is the least inconvenient for it .


----------



## teqniq (Jul 9, 2021)




----------



## Raheem (Jul 9, 2021)

teqniq said:


>



"I'm not calling for the lightbulb to be changed, but there are questions..."


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 9, 2021)




----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 9, 2021)

teqniq said:


> Funny that. His predecessor was offering something along those lines but for some strange reason it was anathema to the Graun



This is a bizarre line of argument. Starmer was elected on a 10 point plan: which promised to retain many of the most popular ideas advanced by Corbyn. When he moves away from that he’s hammered for betrayal. When he accepts that many of those ideas have merit and are popular he’s hammered for advancing ideas that were developed by Corbyn (it was actually McDonnell but we’ll let that slide) or for receiving praise for it from those who denied praise to his predecessor.

So the article calls for a bold social democratic  economic plan, the incorporation of the left of the party in delivering it and it calls for Leave supporting MPs to be bought into the cabinet.

Yes, it’s hypocritical. And yes, the Guardian are the bilge of the PMC in the flesh. But it’s also exactly what labour needs to do minimally to begin the long long journey of reconnecting with its base.


----------



## Argonia (Jul 9, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> This is a bizarre line of argument. Starmer was elected on a 10 point plan: which promised to retain many of the most popular ideas advanced by Corbyn. When he moves away from that he’s hammered for betrayal. When he accepts that many of those ideas have merit and are popular he’s hammered for advancing ideas that were developed by Corbyn (it was actually McDonnell but we’ll let that slide) or for receiving praise for it from those who denied praise to his predecessor.
> 
> So the article calls for a bold social democratic  economic plan, the incorporation of the left of the party in delivering it and it calls for Leave supporting MPs to be bought into the cabinet.
> 
> Yes, it’s hypocritical. And yes, the Guardian are the bilge of the PMC in the flesh. But it’s also exactly what labour needs to do minimally to begin the long long journey of reconnecting with its base.


pizza base


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 9, 2021)

Argonia said:


> Armed Forces Day was one of my least favourite of New Labour's ghastly authoritarian measures. If people want to join up and go and die horrific deaths in foreign climes for no reason whatsoever they should jolly well invade Mars on one of Elon Musk's spaceships and leave the rest of us in peace.



That explains why my New Labour Council Lambeth made a big thing about it. Didn't realise it was New Labour idea. Presumably to make those who opposed Iraq war appear unpatriotic. I'd assumed it was Tory idea forced on local Councils. How wrong I was. Thanks for your post.









						Armed Forces Day (United Kingdom) - Wikipedia
					






					en.m.wikipedia.org


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 9, 2021)

James Meadway in Guardian arguing that Starmer Buy British has more substance than some think. Its partly riposte to the Harris article in Guardian. Meadway is left economist and always worth reading.

Among other things points out that,

Free market neo liberalism has had its day. What matters is what comes after it.

Corbyn when suggested something similar was derided.

Using government procurement is way to ensure leverage over business to ensure good working conditions.

This is an alternative post Brexit economic strategy. Argument over Brexit is gone. Now a space to develop alternative economic strategy.

In EU the UK didn't use state aid as it could have. Even though it could have done more like France and Germany.









						Labour’s ‘Buy British’ policy isn’t nostalgia – it’s a smart response to new realities | James Meadway
					

A pledge to use the state’s £290bn procurement budget to buy from British companies is all about a future outside the EU, says James Meadway of IPPR




					www.theguardian.com
				




So he's looking at the positive. With Biden doing similar it's now mainstream.

Pity that Corbyn McDonnell got no credit for being ahead of the curve on this.


----------



## Raheem (Jul 9, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> James Meadway in Guardian arguing that Starmer Buy British has more substance than some think. Its partly riposte to the Harris article in Guardian. Meadway is left economist and always worth reading.
> 
> Among other things points out that,
> 
> ...


Afraid I think it is a nothing. Starmer might get a "buy British" lapel badge done. Government procurement is under basically the same restrictions outside as inside the EU. Which is not to say there's no scope for increasing domestic procurement, but not so as it will make much of a difference beyond PR. And the Tories will get there first anyway.


----------



## Bertmedia0161 (Jul 10, 2021)

agricola said:


> I voted for Starmer. I don't think he has covered himself in glory over the past few seconds and was virtually absent on the Coronavirus debate. This has possibly cost a lot of anti-Coronavirus votes. His time is up. He should go. Give the party time to elect a leader and sort themselves out before the next election.


Been nothing short of toothless or even Completely anonymous when these self servin t**ts in charge have needed callin out


----------



## Argonia (Jul 10, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> That explains why my New Labour Council Lambeth made a big thing about it. Didn't realise it was New Labour idea. Presumably to make those who opposed Iraq war appear unpatriotic. I'd assumed it was Tory idea forced on local Councils. How wrong I was. Thanks for your post.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You're welcome my friend. Have just made a start on reading Gramsci's Prison Notebooks.


----------



## TopCat (Jul 10, 2021)

Such insight. What a grasp. Feel the vision. 








						Post-Brexit situation in Northern Ireland is fragile, says Starmer
					

Labour leader says lack of trust in relation to NI protocol repeatedly mentioned during three-day trip




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Argonia (Jul 10, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Such insight. What a grasp. Feel the vision.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He's got the vision of a _Tasmanipatus anophthalmus _that missed its appointment at Specsavers


----------



## teqniq (Jul 10, 2021)

Big mistake here, i feel:


----------



## flypanam (Jul 10, 2021)

teqniq said:


> Big mistake here, i feel:



Well, he’s been happy to get rid of Scottish Labour voters, he’s happy to turn Muslims off Labour, might as well abandon the Irish voters of Labour…next slogan will be…

labour winning here.


----------



## flypanam (Jul 10, 2021)

Also as Labour have zero presence in the north, who is gonna listen to that blur.


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 10, 2021)

teqniq said:


> Big mistake here, i feel:




Diane Abbott points out this is not Labour position. So unless he's going for the Kate Hoey view its a mistake. Not that Hoey is an MP anymore. He probably thinks he's showing his patriotism  by doing this.


----------



## Argonia (Jul 10, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> That explains why my New Labour Council Lambeth made a big thing about it. Didn't realise it was New Labour idea. Presumably to make those who opposed Iraq war appear unpatriotic. I'd assumed it was Tory idea forced on local Councils. How wrong I was. Thanks for your post.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It was all part of New Labour's triangulated third way perversion of Toryism. As Zarah Sultana put it in her maiden speech - 40 years of Thatcherism.


----------



## Argonia (Jul 12, 2021)

Has he shuffled off yet or is he still producing dreadful policy documents written in garbled Esperanto with Peter Mandleson?


----------



## elbows (Jul 12, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> James Meadway in Guardian arguing that Starmer Buy British has more substance than some think. Its partly riposte to the Harris article in Guardian. Meadway is left economist and always worth reading.



Thanks for posting that, it makes me feel like maybe I didnt go out on a weird, unreal limb after all.

Because its been an odd decade+ in terms of the veneer. Clearly something important to the old ways became a corpse in the financial crisis. Attempts to prove the corpse was still alive via quantititititive easing and dressing the corpse austerely were not terribly convincing. There was no death announcement, but the death of the 'trickle down' propagandas credibility was quietly announced quite early on in the financial crisis. Reanimating the corpse was not sufficient enough a distraction that it could hope to hide the obvious ideological vacuum. And its been a weird kind of limbo waiting for someone to start to fill that vacuum. Now the pandemic has provided a way to acknowledge that the corpse really is a corpse after all, a chance to move on without acknowledging the true date or cause of death. Taxidermy doesnt have to be taxing.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jul 12, 2021)

i think the spider plant has lost the will to live...


----------



## Raheem (Jul 12, 2021)

Why do you call him a spider?


----------



## elbows (Jul 13, 2021)

A couple of tweets.


----------



## Raheem (Jul 13, 2021)

Doesn't seem to be any comment from Labour on the Mings tweet. Wonder how much that is down to not wanting to appear too anti-racist and how much is that if they tweet a reply they might get "You can fuck off an' all" back.


----------



## Serene (Jul 13, 2021)

Can anyone tell the difference between Starmer and a Tory?


----------



## Raheem (Jul 13, 2021)

Serene said:


> Can anyone tell the difference between Starmer and a Tory?


One of them's exactly the same.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jul 13, 2021)

Did they actually have anything to say about taking the knee or did they dodge that one?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jul 13, 2021)

Serene said:


> Can anyone tell the difference between Starmer and a Tory?



Tories get elected.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jul 13, 2021)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> Did they actually have anything to say about taking the knee or did they dodge that one?



He was photographed taking the knee with Rayner a while back then almost immediately shat the bed by accidentally saying what he actually thought about BLM. After that his wonks probably told him to never mention racism again.


----------



## Serene (Jul 13, 2021)

Hasnt he recently bought a Whippet to make himself look working class? He was seen with a Whippet, one of those tartan bags on wheels and long handles, a copy of the Sporting times and a flat cap, walking down to the bookies.


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 13, 2021)

Thing is today I'm wondering whether its good idea to blame it all on Starmer personally.

Having Corbyn/ McDonnell at head of Labour Party sent the establishment and my New Labour Lambeth Cllrs into apoplexy. Even though some of them would support a watered down version of BLM ( no criticism of policing)

Starmer is behaving exactly like the establishment wants. I do however think this isn't going to work. Its back to triangulation. Taking a knee then saying BLM is a moment.

Which is why footballers like Rashford etc come across as genuine and to the point unlike Starmer. ( that is because they are ordinary guys who made good. They are using their position in way that I think is admirable. )If they were in Labour party they would be consided now as part of hard left to be shut up. In case they upset some voters.

In some ways I can see the impossible position Starmer is in.

Its why I'm wondering If its any use voting now. I did when Corbyn got to be leader.

The way he's been treated and the abject way Starmer thinks he should go on makes me think that the establishment are telling me you can't vote for anyone who might even suggest change.

I'm disgusted that Corbyn is still classified as Independent MP.

People like Gordon Brown , Mandelson are considered elder statesman now. Even Blair who led this country into worst foreign policy disaster since Suez gets shown more respect than Corbyn.


----------



## elbows (Jul 13, 2021)

Sir Steer Calmer says "small change" and "yes we can't". I cant imagine why this position does not inspire.


----------



## ska invita (Jul 13, 2021)

elbows said:


> I cant imagine why this position does not inspire.


hes also dissing Spurs on twitter in a shit attempt to do banter the prat


----------



## Argonia (Jul 16, 2021)

#StarmerOut correctly trending at Twitter


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 16, 2021)

Serene said:


> Can anyone tell the difference between Starmer and a Tory?


A Tory says what they believe then starmer agrees with them


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jul 16, 2021)




----------



## Artaxerxes (Jul 16, 2021)




----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 16, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


>



wot?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jul 16, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> wot?



Not seen his latest?


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 16, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Not seen his latest?



nope, i never watch politicians speaking on tv as it's just too infuriating


----------



## TopCat (Jul 17, 2021)

Summerize it.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jul 17, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Summerize it.



Man is cunt.


----------



## Almor (Jul 17, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Summerize it.


Starmer has a chat with a group of ex-labour voters and makes a video of him making excuses to a guy who hasn't voted Labour since 97 who says it's because the party's too divided by losers, argues weakly with a woman who says forget about under 25's because they're all lazy and don't want to work (the woman in the meme above), can't remember what he says to the guy who stopped voting Labour in 2010 who says it's because of corbyn's toxic legacy, and then there's a bit at the end where some woman says that she was surprised by how much personality and charisma he displayed

There was some stuff about Blackpool being left behind and poverty, and how can Labour pay to fix those if the tories can't, which is apparently about priorities

Can't believe that I watched it to end, but at least you don't have to 😕


----------



## TopCat (Jul 17, 2021)

Almor said:


> Starmer has a chat with a group of ex-labour voters and makes a video of him making excuses to a guy who hasn't voted Labour since 97 who says it's because the party's too divided by losers, argues weakly with a woman who says forget about under 25's because they're all lazy and don't want to work (the woman in the meme above), can't remember what he says to the guy who stopped voting Labour in 2010 who says it's because of corbyn's toxic legacy, and then there's a bit at the end where some woman says that she was surprised by how much personality and charisma he displayed
> 
> There was some stuff about Blackpool being left behind and poverty, and how can Labour pay to fix those if the tories can't, which is apparently about priorities
> 
> Can't believe that I watched it to end, but at least you don't have to 😕


Thanks. You can wash your hands now.


----------



## ska invita (Jul 17, 2021)

Almor said:


> Starmer has a chat with a group of ex-labour voters and makes a video of him making excuses to a guy who hasn't voted Labour since 97 who says it's because the party's too divided by losers, argues weakly with a woman who says forget about under 25's because they're all lazy and don't want to work (the woman in the meme above), can't remember what he says to the guy who stopped voting Labour in 2010 who says it's because of corbyn's toxic legacy, and then there's a bit at the end where some woman says that she was surprised by how much personality and charisma he displayed
> 
> There was some stuff about Blackpool being left behind and poverty, and how can Labour pay to fix those if the tories can't, which is apparently about priorities
> 
> Can't believe that I watched it to end, but at least you don't have to 😕


who set this up? is it a bbc thing? who chose the ex labour voters?


----------



## Almor (Jul 17, 2021)

ska invita said:


> who set this up? is it a bbc thing? who chose the ex labour voters?


I am not prepared to care that much about it tbh, one of the ex-labour voters laughs about how she can't remember when she last voted for them so it can't have been a very rigorous selection process


----------



## ska invita (Jul 17, 2021)

Almor said:


> I am not prepared to care that much about it tbh, one of the ex-labour voters laughs about how she can't remember when she last voted for them so it can't have been a very rigorous selection process


i expect it was pretty rigorous - have to weed out all those exLabour voters who liked Corbyn / dislike Starmer


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 17, 2021)

ska invita said:


> who set this up? is it a bbc thing? who chose the ex labour voters?


The BBC who managed to find amongst the ex Labour voters a former Tory candidate


----------



## ska invita (Jul 17, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> The BBC who managed to find amongst the ex Labour voters a former Tory candidate


what are you refering to ? that thing above had a former tory candidate?


----------



## DotCommunist (Jul 17, 2021)

it was the nandy school of voter engagement, smile along while the person slags off large sections of your potential voters, nod and smile. No chance that the people being called lazy cunts are watching after all. right.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 17, 2021)

ska invita said:


> what are you refering to ? that thing above had a former tory candidate?


Allegedy 








						Breaking: BBC ‘independently selected ex-Labour voter’ for Starmer snow-job is former Tory candidate (video)
					

The BBC has produced a transparent, Laura Kuenssberg-fronted ‘snow-job’ to try to persuade viewers – despite his utterly disastrous performance that has dragged Labour far lower t…




					skwawkbox.org


----------



## imposs1904 (Jul 17, 2021)

Keir Starmer (1980s), Keir Starmer (1990s), Keir Starmer (2000-2019), Keir Starmer (Hartlepool By-Election).


----------



## bellaozzydog (Jul 17, 2021)

Almor said:


> Starmer has a chat with a group of ex-labour voters and makes a video of him making excuses to a guy who hasn't voted Labour since 97 who says it's because the party's too divided by losers, argues weakly with a woman who says forget about under 25's because they're all lazy and don't want to work (the woman in the meme above), can't remember what he says to the guy who stopped voting Labour in 2010 who says it's because of corbyn's toxic legacy, and then there's a bit at the end where some woman says that she was surprised by how much personality and charisma he displayed
> 
> There was some stuff about Blackpool being left behind and poverty, and how can Labour pay to fix those if the tories can't, which is apparently about priorities
> 
> Can't believe that I watched it to end, but at least you don't have to 😕


Thank you for your service


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 17, 2021)




----------



## imposs1904 (Jul 17, 2021)

The39thStep said:


>




The Handsworth Bullshitter?


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 17, 2021)




----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jul 17, 2021)

wasn't quite sure whether to post here or the 'labour antisemitism' thread


----------



## glitch hiker (Jul 17, 2021)

Nothing reassures jewish people like being marginalised 

Where does Labour find all these horrors like Coyle?


----------



## belboid (Jul 17, 2021)

Hardly surprised at three of those groups, well all four really.  Labour in Exile is mostly people who have been or want to be expelled, Resist is the Friends of Chris Williamson and socialist appeal are the militant who stuck with ted grant.   Labour Against the Witch-hunt has some ‘legacy members’ from when they weren’t just crude as shit (at best) about anti Semitism. Won’t be any great loss, I’m sure the few remaining sane members could talk their way out of any expulsions.


----------



## Whagwan (Jul 18, 2021)

Medieval Doctor 1: We have let so much blood and yet the patient has worsened.
Medieval Doctor 2: It is clear then that you have not let enough blood, bleed the patient more.
Medieval Doctor 1: I have done so and it is not even twenty points ahead of the Lib fucking Dems let alone the Tories
Medieval Doctor 2: Then there must still be ill Corbyn humors, we must bleed them out.
Medieval Doctor 1:


----------



## JimW (Jul 18, 2021)

Four poisonous groups has got a real high Maoist era purge ring to it.


----------



## Flavour (Jul 18, 2021)

Lol @ socialist appeal getting kicked out after swanning about all high and mighty as the Kings of entryism during the corbyn years when lots of other far left groups dissolved and joined Labour... The "I told you so" wagon comes back in the other direction


----------



## ska invita (Jul 18, 2021)

belboid said:


> Hardly surprised at three of those groups, well all four really.  Labour in Exile is mostly people who have been or want to be expelled, Resist is the Friends of Chris Williamson and socialist appeal are the militant who stuck with ted grant.   Labour Against the Witch-hunt has some ‘legacy members’ from when they weren’t just crude as shit (at best) about anti Semitism. Won’t be any great loss, I’m sure the few remaining sane members could talk their way out of any expulsions.


I respect your opinion on this...I doubt it will play as reasonably with other embattled members.


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 18, 2021)

Almor said:


> Starmer has a chat with a group of ex-labour voters and makes a video of him making excuses to a guy who hasn't voted Labour since 97 who says it's because the party's too divided by losers, argues weakly with a woman who says forget about under 25's because they're all lazy and don't want to work (the woman in the meme above), can't remember what he says to the guy who stopped voting Labour in 2010 who says it's because of corbyn's toxic legacy, and then there's a bit at the end where some woman says that she was surprised by how much personality and charisma he displayed
> 
> There was some stuff about Blackpool being left behind and poverty, and how can Labour pay to fix those if the tories can't, which is apparently about priorities
> 
> Can't believe that I watched it to end, but at least you don't have to 😕



I did watch It to the end. 

Three topics. First being under 25s. It was two people quoted in the news item saying don't bother with the under 25s as they are lazy and don't want to work. 

It was hour long and these were selective quotes but I do wonder where the BBC get these people from. 

I'd assume that topic of under 25s would have meant something to the panel chosen. But no.


----------



## Leighsw2 (Jul 18, 2021)

belboid said:


> Hardly surprised at three of those groups, well all four really.  Labour in Exile is mostly people who have been or want to be expelled, Resist is the Friends of Chris Williamson and socialist appeal are the militant who stuck with ted grant.   Labour Against the Witch-hunt has some ‘legacy members’ from when they weren’t just crude as shit (at best) about anti Semitism. Won’t be any great loss, I’m sure the few remaining sane members could talk their way out of any expulsions.


I think you'll find that this is just testing the water. The real target is Momentum and the Socialist Campaign Group which is really where this is all leading.


----------



## ska invita (Jul 18, 2021)

Leighsw2 said:


> I think you'll find that this is just testing the water. The real target is Momentum and the Socialist Campaign Group which is really where this is all leading.


in their dreams


----------



## belboid (Jul 18, 2021)

There’s no chance they’ll try expel the campaign group, they’ve been a mainstay of the party for decades, unlike any of the other groups.  

they might like to get rid of momentum but, firstly, there are still too many of them. And because they aren’t really any kind of threat any more, they’re generally ‘good activists’ who aren’t likely to take over a branch any more.


----------



## ska invita (Jul 19, 2021)

NHS to get a 3% pay rise according to Twitter.. anyone confirm?

Makes Starmers 2% look even crapper than it was, if so


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 19, 2021)

ska invita said:


> NHS to get a 3% pay rise according to Twitter.. anyone confirm?
> 
> Makes Starmers 2% look even crapper than it was, if so


google reveals Unions step up demands for a long-awaited pay rise for NHS workers


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jul 19, 2021)

Labour could cut at least a quarter of its staff in cost-saving push
					

At least 90 jobs may go in bid to repair party finances, while NEC will also consider proposals to bar far-left factions




					www.theguardian.com
				




sounds like things are going well...


----------



## ska invita (Jul 19, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> Labour could cut at least a quarter of its staff in cost-saving push
> 
> 
> At least 90 jobs may go in bid to repair party finances, while NEC will also consider proposals to bar far-left factions
> ...


article doesnt mention how many member have left
also the extent of the court cases brought against Labour in the last year, though i guess those are costs for another time


----------



## Leighsw2 (Jul 19, 2021)

This is an interesting take.


I rather think the scorched-earth tendency on the Labour Right have written off the next election and are plotting for what comes after 2024 (probably D. Miliband if they can smuggle him into the country under cover of a General Election.) Whether the 'soft' Left are up for this wild ride into the abyss is difficult to gauge, though they have spent the last 40 years meekly following wherever the Right have led, so it would be true to form.


----------



## steveseagull (Jul 20, 2021)

In news that will not surprise anyone, the 'adults' have near bankrupted the party and are trying to blame Corbyn (who steadied the finances)


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 20, 2021)

Leighsw2 said:


> This is an interesting take.
> 
> 
> I rather think the scorched-earth tendency on the Labour Right have written off the next election and are plotting for what comes after 2024 (probably D. Miliband if they can smuggle him into the country under cover of a General Election.) Whether the 'soft' Left are up for this wild ride into the abyss is difficult to gauge, though they have spent the last 40 years meekly following wherever the Right have led, so it would be true to form.




Is there any evidence or sources for this or is it just what he thinks?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 20, 2021)

i am astonished socialist appeal are still going, i know someone out of that during the poll tax and assumed the group had died out


----------



## belboid (Jul 20, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> i am astonished socialist appeal are still going, i know someone out of that during the poll tax and assumed the group had died out


I was astounded about five years ago when they suddenly appeared again.   And they had _young people_ involved for some reason.   Still the same dreadful old politics )maybe even worse, one of the first things they came out with was a defense of shooting down that Ukrainian plane).


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 20, 2021)

belboid said:


> I was astounded about five years ago when they suddenly appeared again.   And they had _young people_ involved for some reason.   Still the same dreadful old politics )maybe even worse, one of the first things they came out with was a defense of shooting down that Ukrainian plane).


ah the auld moscow gold still flows i see


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 20, 2021)

belboid said:


> I was astounded about five years ago when they suddenly appeared again.   And they had _young people_ involved for some reason.   Still the same dreadful old politics )maybe even worse, one of the first things they came out with was a defense of shooting down that Ukrainian plane).



Have any of the various SP splinter factions folded back into Socialist Apology? I've found it impossible to get keep track of the various fragmentations.


----------



## belboid (Jul 20, 2021)

It’s just the lot that stuck with Ted Grant through thick and thicker thin, I think.


----------



## little_legs (Jul 20, 2021)

steveseagull said:


> In news that will not surprise anyone, the 'adults' have near bankrupted the party and are trying to blame Corbyn (who steadied the finances)


----------



## Leighsw2 (Jul 20, 2021)

Certainly a long way down from being the richest party in Britain with the largest mass membership in Europe to an organisation sacking a third of its staff and teetering on the verge of bankruptcy. Thank god the adults are back in charge!


----------



## Leighsw2 (Jul 20, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Is there any evidence or sources for this or is it just what he thinks?


It's his analysis. But does seem eminently plausible for anyone with knowledge of the Labour Right. After all, these are the people who wanted Labour to lose in 2017 and then set up an entire astro-turf campaign (the ludicrous 'Peoples' Vote') to make sure of it in 2019!


----------



## charlie mowbray (Jul 21, 2021)

Socialist Appeal did well out of the Corbynista influx into Labour, and as others have noted, started recruiting a lot of young members. An indication of this was, before the Corbyn phenomenon, I used to see one old and sad looking seller of their paper on demos. Later there were sizeable numbers on demos behind Socialist Appeal banners, latest one being Kill the BIll demo that started in Russell Square. But as they are now proscribed, it will be difficult for them, as a parasite on the Labour Party, to survive. Will they decide to merge with their old comrades of the Socialist Party? Not likely, considering the past animosity. More likely to wither and die.


----------



## Flavour (Jul 21, 2021)

belboid sorry catching up here - who defended shooting down the Ukrainian plane? link?


----------



## Flavour (Jul 21, 2021)

charlie mowbray said:


> More likely to wither and die.


 Not sure about that. I think it would take a while. They still have a fairly large number of committed activists. But recruitment will surely dry up, so long-term decline inevitable.


----------



## charlie mowbray (Jul 21, 2021)

Flavour said:


> Not sure about that. I think it would take a while. They still have a fairly large number of committed activists. But recruitment will surely dry up, so long-term decline inevitable.


Yes, that was what I was saying.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 21, 2021)

Now Starmer has been pinged; I'm warming to this app thing.


----------



## elbows (Jul 21, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Now Starmer has been pinged; I'm warming to this app thing.


Self-isolation number 4 for him.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 21, 2021)

Not a fan of Paul Mason but if he ever goes into sports tipping this is a good pointer of why you should back the other team rather than the one he favours.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 21, 2021)

elbows said:


> Self-isolation number 4 for him.


How would we tell?


----------



## elbows (Jul 21, 2021)

brogdale said:


> How would we tell?


Sir Steer Calmer rejects the accusation that he may as well be farting in a void.

He will soon demonstrate his dynamism by showing the world that he is the next Lionel Blair, not Tony Blair. He will tap dance on the graves of socialists without even spilling his pint.


----------



## TopCat (Jul 21, 2021)

He looks ever so lonely when zooming.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jul 21, 2021)

but the party is apparently hiring 30-50 temporary staff for the purging unit









						Labour moves to cut staff as party reserves down to one month’s payroll – LabourList
					

Labour general secretary David Evans told staff in a meeting this morning that the poor financial situation of the party means its reserves are now…




					labourlist.org


----------



## belboid (Jul 22, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> but the party is apparently hiring 30-50 temporary staff for the purging unit
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My god, the job ad for investigators is quite something.  It’s a fantastic opportunity and you must be

Creative and open to new ways of working including digital transformation, participatory methods and co-creation of solutions with those most affected.









						Temporary Investigation Officer - 6 month contract, London
					

Fantastic opportunity for experienced Case Handlers 6-month contract | Work from Home | £19 Per hour | £34,616 pro-rata We have several fantastic opportunities for experienced Case Handlers to manage a caseload of investigations. Working in the public...



					lovesuccess.co.uk


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jul 22, 2021)

belboid said:


> Creative and open to new ways of working including digital transformation, participatory methods and co-creation of solutions with those most affected.



is 'bullshit bingo' the party's latest fund-raiser?


----------



## hitmouse (Jul 22, 2021)

Flavour said:


> belboid sorry catching up here - who defended shooting down the Ukrainian plane? link?


Having done a bit of looking around, I guess it's a reference to this - less "shooting down the plane was good", more "what if it was a FALSE FLAG, eh?":





						Flight MH17 – Imperialism and the art of hypocrisy | Ukraine | Europe
					

The death of almost 300 innocent men, women and children on a Malaysian airline flight has shocked the world. Flight MH17 from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur was travelling over the conflict-hit region when it disappeared from radar. A total of 283 passengers, including some 80 children, and 15 crew...




					www.marxist.com
				




I'd never looked into their position on Syria before now, but it turns out they have some spicy takes on the White Helmets and related matters as well:








						Syria: the barbarism of war and imperialist hypocrisy
					

Alan Woods takes an in-depth look at the situation in Syria, where the ceasefire has broken down. The dire situation reveals the cynicism of the imperialists - and the horror without end that they have created.




					www.socialist.net
				




Anyway, I suppose this raises some big questions: Will they come up with a new theory explaining that the Labour Party was the only correct place for socialists to be from its founding up until July 2021, but it's now bankrupt and must be smashed so a new workers party can be built, or will they continue to insist, Groucho Marx-style, that everyone should still be in Labour? Or split between the two options?
Also, does this mean that AWLers can be in Labour but SAers can't, and if so does that mean the AWL can now bully them ("oh, just off on my way to the CLP meeting, it's going to be so much fun, are you coming... oh wait, I forgot, you can't, can you?") or does it mean that they can now bully the AWL ("goody-two-shoes Schachtmanites, can't even get expelled!")?


----------



## Flavour (Jul 22, 2021)

Phwoar, that's pretty out there. Great. Thanks for reminding me why I don't have anything to do with these groups, even the ones that have generally played the soft-and-cuddly line through the years like SA


----------



## steveseagull (Jul 22, 2021)

Dawn Butler showing Starmer how it is done


----------



## TopCat (Jul 22, 2021)

I just got the new statesman delivered. It’s got a big heralded article by our great wet hope. 

I will read it so you don’t have to.


----------



## hitmouse (Jul 22, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I just got the new statesman delivered. It’s got a big heralded article by our great wet hope.
> 
> I will read it so you don’t have to.


Thank you for your service.


----------



## belboid (Jul 23, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Having done a bit of looking around, I guess it's a reference to this - less "shooting down the plane was good", more "what if it was a FALSE FLAG, eh?":
> 
> 
> 
> ...


well found, I had only gone through the paper which strangely has absolutely no mention of the incident at all!

Their awfulness on Syria flows from Comrade Grants' long-standing admiration for Assad Sr who led a 'transformation of social relations' and thus created a deformed workers state.

The AWL has long been a proscribed organisation.


----------



## RedRedRose (Jul 23, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> but the party is apparently hiring 30-50 temporary staff for the purging unit
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Outsourcing and downsizing. How Blairite of them!


----------



## charlie mowbray (Jul 23, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Having done a bit of looking around, I guess it's a reference to this - less "shooting down the plane was good", more "what if it was a FALSE FLAG, eh?":
> 
> 
> 
> ...


As others have said, both SA and AWL members were expelled back in 2015-2016. (Of course, that doesn't mean that AWL members are not operating inside Labour). As to gloating over the SA being expelled, the AWL has issued a statement condemning the ban. See here: No to Starmer's bans! | Workers' Liberty


----------



## TopCat (Jul 23, 2021)

In the NS Kier attacks the tories for racism, indecision, cuts for the poor. He wants a more inclusive diverse happy country as that’s what he stands for. Skills jobs and public services are mentioned. That’s it.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 23, 2021)

TopCat said:


> In the NS Kier attacks the tories for racism, indecision, cuts for the poor. He wants a more inclusive diverse happy country as that’s what he stands for. Skills jobs and public services are mentioned. That’s it.


Wot, literally nothing about Motherhood *or *apple-pie?


----------



## TopCat (Jul 23, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Wot, literally nothing about Motherhood *or *apple-pie?


Something about ketchup. Yeah “slogans about ketchup are not much good”.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 23, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Will they come up with a new theory explaining that the Labour Party was the only correct place for socialists to be from its founding up until July 2021, but it's now bankrupt and must be smashed so a new workers party can be built, or will they continue to insist,


When I was active in the Militant one of the most arduous tasks (there were a _lot _of arduous tasks) was explaining to new recruits why we invested so much time and energy in attacking everything the Labour Party said and did, whilst simultaneously spending even more time and energy attacking their attempts to expel us

Why, they’d ask, did we bother fighting attempts to boot us out by a party that hated us and which we condemned on every issue of significance. We’d patiently explain the ‘dialectic process’ to them and the Labour Party’s ineffable role as the only possible mass party of the working class. These naïve youngsters would either eventually come to realise the dubious benefits of entryism or clock that we were mad from the off and hopefully went and did something more useful with their youthful lives.

Until Taaffe decided that the Labour Party was no longer the mass party of the working class and a new one would need to be built. By us. Then we’d patiently explain to new recruits that the Labour Party was not the mass party of the working class etc etc


----------



## andysays (Jul 23, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> When I was active in the Militant one of the most arduous tasks (there were a _lot _of arduous tasks) was explaining to new recruits why we invested so much time and energy in attacking everything the Labour Party said and did, whilst simultaneously spending even more time and energy attacking their attempts to expel us
> 
> Why, they’d ask, did we bother fighting attempts to boot us out by a party that hated us and which we condemned on every issue of significance. We’d patiently explain the ‘dialectic process’ to them and the Labour Party’s ineffable role as the only possible mass party of the working class. These naïve youngsters would either eventually come to realise the dubious benefits of entryism or clock that we were mad from the off and hopefully went and did something more useful with their youthful lives.
> 
> Until Taaffe decided that the Labour Party was no longer the mass party of the working class and a new one would need to be built. By us. Then we’d patiently explain to new recruits that the Labour Party was not the mass party of the working class etc etc


Yeah, I always wondered about that...


----------



## TopCat (Jul 23, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> When I was active in the Militant one of the most arduous tasks (there were a _lot _of arduous tasks) was explaining to new recruits why we invested so much time and energy in attacking everything the Labour Party said and did, whilst simultaneously spending even more time and energy attacking their attempts to expel us
> 
> Why, they’d ask, did we bother fighting attempts to boot us out by a party that hated us and which we condemned on every issue of significance. We’d patiently explain the ‘dialectic process’ to them and the Labour Party’s ineffable role as the only possible mass party of the working class. These naïve youngsters would either eventually come to realise the dubious benefits of entryism or clock that we were mad from the off and hopefully went and did something more useful with their youthful lives.
> 
> Until Taaffe decided that the Labour Party was no longer the mass party of the working class and a new one would need to be built. By us. Then we’d patiently explain to new recruits that the Labour Party was not the mass party of the working class etc etc


How was the change of tack presented?


----------



## two sheds (Jul 23, 2021)

We've always been at war with Labour?


----------



## elbows (Jul 23, 2021)

andysays said:


> Yeah, I always wondered about that...



I've been wondering if the Tories will ever sort out their Mutant viral tendency wing.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 23, 2021)

TopCat said:


> How was the change of tack presented?



I’m tempted to say at exerable length using the usual pseudo scientific ‘Marxist’ method so beloved of Grant, Taaffe and rest of them.


----------



## TopCat (Jul 23, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I’m tempted to say at exerable length using the usual pseudo scientific ‘Marxist’ method so beloved of Grant, Taaffe and rest of them.


I never had any real idea of Grant’s politics other than in struggle against his policies in Lambeth in the 80’s. He was a total cunt. 

Later, much later he used to hang out at Ruskin House in Croydon. An old labour club type place. He was in the retired members association. I went with my parents and Old Red Ted had a fit at the sight of me and had to be comforted by my Mum.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 23, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I never had any real idea of Grant’s politics other than in struggle against his policies in Lambeth in the 80’s. He was a total cunt.
> 
> Later, much later he used to hang out at Ruskin House in Croydon. An old labour club type place. He was in the retired members association. I went with my parents and Old Red Ted had a fit at the sight of me and had to be comforted by my Mum.



Never met him. Being forced to read The Unbroken Thread felt like punishment enough.


----------



## TopCat (Jul 23, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Never met him. Being forced to read The Unbroken Thread felt like punishment enough.


They made you read it? Did you have to pretend to like it?


----------



## glitch hiker (Jul 23, 2021)

Poor Keir, did you see his little face during PMQ's. He looked so happy he'd finally found some semblance of a voice. 

Just a shame the human hatestack couldn't be bothered to not risk covid and be there in person to lie through his fucking gnashers


----------



## Leighsw2 (Jul 23, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I’m tempted to say at exerable length using the usual pseudo scientific ‘Marxist’ method so beloved of Grant, Taaffe and rest of them.


Went with my dad to see that Ted Grant speak once. Nasty yellow shirt. Dirty cuffs. Not impressed.


----------



## Leighsw2 (Jul 23, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I never had any real idea of Grant’s politics other than in struggle against his policies in Lambeth in the 80’s. He was a total cunt.
> 
> Later, much later he used to hang out at Ruskin House in Croydon. An old labour club type place. He was in the retired members association. I went with my parents and Old Red Ted had a fit at the sight of me and had to be comforted by my Mum.


Are you confusing Ted Grant with Ted Knight? Lots of Teds, but I preferred the latter over the former.


----------



## Wilf (Jul 23, 2021)

Leighsw2 said:


> Are you confusing Ted Grant with Ted Knight? Lots of Teds, but I preferred the latter over the former.


Careful now!


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 23, 2021)

Leighsw2 said:


> Are you confusing Ted Grant with Ted Knight? Lots of Teds, but I preferred the latter over the former.



I wondered that with the Lambeth reference. That’s said the rest of it sounded like Grant…


----------



## two sheds (Jul 23, 2021)

Isn't all this discussion of left wingers somewhat off topic given the thread title?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 23, 2021)

Leighsw2 said:


> Went with my dad to see that Ted Grant speak once. Nasty yellow shirt. Dirty cuffs. Not impressed.



He was a scruffy twat. When Taaffe came up to lecture us on our latest ‘deviation’ from the correct path he was wearing a shell suit, presumably on the basis that’s what he thought we’d be wearing…


----------



## Leighsw2 (Jul 23, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Isn't all this discussion of left wingers somewhat off topic given the thread title?


Just a reminder of what a glorious broad church Labour used to be!


----------



## belboid (Jul 23, 2021)

I know I’m biased but Ted Grant was easily the dullest of the Crucial Three of British Trotskyism.  Dry and a voice that only varied loud, louder and slightly hectoring.

Gerry Healy was at least entertaining.  Mad as a box of frogs that were being electrocuted, which probably helped.  Much better at varying tone and hand gesticulations.   Plus talking massive bollocks that was just _wtf_?

Cliff was best though.  His accent and hair helped considerably, but he did also know how to shift between the humorous and the serious and how to tease you into paying attention to him.  The fact he talked more sense than the other two also helped, as did the fact that swappie hand gesticulations were way better than the millies.


----------



## tony.c (Jul 23, 2021)

belboid said:


> Cliff was best though.


He was scruffy too.


----------



## hitmouse (Jul 23, 2021)

belboid said:


> I know I’m biased but Ted Grant was easily the dullest of the Crucial Three of British Trotskyism.  Dry and a voice that only varied loud, louder and slightly hectoring.
> 
> Gerry Healy was at least entertaining.  Mad as a box of frogs that were being electrocuted, which probably helped.  Much better at varying tone and hand gesticulations.   Plus talking massive bollocks that was just _wtf_?
> 
> Cliff was best though.  His accent and hair helped considerably, but he did also know how to shift between the humorous and the serious and how to tease you into paying attention to him.  The fact he talked more sense than the other two also helped, as did the fact that swappie hand gesticulations were way better than the millies.


Just to drag this a bit further offtopic, I'm sure I've heard some weird anecdote about how, back in the very early days, apparently there was a period when Tony Cliff, Gerry Healy and someone who would go on to be of a similar level of importance were living in a caravan together - has anyone else heard this/can confirm if there's any truth to it?

Back on sort of topic, was talking to my dad, who for whatever reason is still in the Labour Party, and not affiliated with one of the Four Poisonous Groups, he was saying that his attitude to the idea of being expelled was "bring it on - not in a macho, I relish the challenge way, just in a someone please put me out of this misery way."


----------



## Funky_monks (Jul 23, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Just to drag this a bit further offtopic, I'm sure I've heard some weird anecdote about how, back in the very early days, apparently there was a period when Tony Cliff, Gerry Healy and someone who would go on to be of a similar level of importance were living in a caravan together - has anyone else heard this/can confirm if there's any truth to it?
> 
> Back on sort of topic, was talking to my dad, who for whatever reason is still in the Labour Party, and not affiliated with one of the Four Poisonous Groups, he was saying that his attitude to the idea of being expelled was "bring it on - not in a macho, I relish the challenge way, just in a someone please put me out of this misery way."


My parents are both still in the LP, have been as long as I can remember. 

My dad, now 72 seems genuinely wistful about how all these young people suddenly turned up, enthused and the CLP meetings (in Hampshire, of all places) became genuinely exciting for him in the Corbyn years and bitter about how its gone since then, and the new blood has dispersed. Still, he remains in the party hoping it might happen again. Although, I did ask him how he felt about being expelled (brought a motion of no confidence in KS, which naturally lost, but closely). His response was that he couldn't give a shit.


----------



## Serge Forward (Jul 23, 2021)

I'd heard they all lived in the same house. Dunno how true that was.


----------



## Sue (Jul 24, 2021)

Serge Forward said:


> I'd heard they all lived in the same house. Dunno how true that was.


That was The Goodies.


----------



## charlie mowbray (Jul 24, 2021)

"Gerry Healy was at least entertaining". Yeah if you think thuggery, rape and doing nasty deals with Arab dictatorships and fingering dissidents who died horrible, painful deaths in Syrian prisons is entertaining.


----------



## TopCat (Jul 24, 2021)

Leighsw2 said:


> Are you confusing Ted Grant with Ted Knight? Lots of Teds, but I preferred the latter over the former.


Yes!


----------



## andysays (Jul 24, 2021)

Sue said:


> That was The Goodies.


A sit-com featuring Cliff, Healy and either Sean Matgamna or Frank Furedi (or possibly both) living together in one house sounds like a great idea for a sitcom, even if it might have rather a niche audience appeal.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 24, 2021)

andysays said:


> A sit-com featuring Cliff, Healy and either Sean Matgamna or Frank Furedi (or possibly both) living together in one house sounds like a great idea for a sitcom, even if it might have rather a niche audience appeal.


There's film...


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 24, 2021)

andysays said:


> A sit-com featuring Cliff, Healy and either Sean Matgamna or Frank Furedi (or possibly both) living together in one house sounds like a great idea for a sitcom, even if it might have rather a niche audience appeal.



The one where they come into contact with working class people would be an instant classic surely?


----------



## gosub (Jul 24, 2021)

Argonia said:


> Union Jack worshippers. I hated boy scouts as we had to sing songs to that ghastly pendant but fortunately no nonce got his hands on me. I remember one time some guy with weird eyes swimming in strange glasses wanted to buy me an ice cream at the Guildford show in Stoke Park but I clocked him and legged it back home.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## maomao (Jul 24, 2021)

Cliff and Chani were uncle/auntie figures to me as a littl'un and it always amuses me to hear him discussed as a Trot demagogue (though obviously true).


----------



## hitmouse (Jul 24, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Yes!


Quite enjoying the idea of someone running up to Ted Grant and angrily denouncing him for Ted Knight's crimes. Or the other way around, whatever.


maomao said:


> Cliff and Chani were uncle/auntie figures to me as a littl'un and it always amuses me to hear him discussed as a Trot demagogue (though obviously true).


Don't suppose he ever mentioned living in a caravan or house with other Trot demagogues and which ones if so?


----------



## maomao (Jul 24, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Don't suppose he ever mentioned living in a caravan or house with other Trot demagogues and which ones if so?


He was more the ruffle the kids' hair and go in the other room to plot the revolution type. I could ask my dad but I don't talk to him often.


----------



## belboid (Jul 24, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Just to drag this a bit further offtopic, I'm sure I've heard some weird anecdote about how, back in the very early days, apparently there was a period when Tony Cliff, Gerry Healy and someone who would go on to be of a similar level of importance were living in a caravan together - has anyone else heard this/can confirm if there's any truth to it?


In Ireland, before Cliff's leave to remain was sorted, I believe.  He stole the cheese.


----------



## belboid (Jul 24, 2021)

charlie mowbray said:


> "Gerry Healy was at least entertaining". Yeah if you think thuggery, rape and doing nasty deals with Arab dictatorships and fingering dissidents who died horrible, painful deaths in Syrian prisons is entertaining.


funnily enough, he did none of those things when speaking.  And being a  complete shit doesn't stop you being able to soliloquise.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 25, 2021)

Pre-figurative politics.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 25, 2021)

This is so bad it’s painful to read. Sample quote “This is a glimpse of the country we can become: forward-looking, open, kind, welcoming and in which all talents are fostered; an environment that is hostile only to intolerance. This nation will only come into being if it is led well. But instead of a prime minister who seeks to wrap himself in the flag of this new England, we have one who refused to condemn abuse directed against Southgate’s team”

Where to start. The desire to wrap himself ‘in the flag’, the implicit acceptance of meritocracy rather than economic and social justice as the only possible way to organise society, the desperate attempt to hitch the Labour Pary bandwagon to the back of the football team, the lack of any policy”….. none of this cut through and made an impression. Even if it did this isn’t - despite what their focus groups are telling them - how Labour is going to reconnect with those who they need to.









						The values divide between Labour and the Tories isn’t a culture war. It’s a battle for the soul of England
					

Boris Johnson and Priti Patel tried to create a “hostile environment” for our footballers – but modern Britain is leaving them behind.




					www.newstatesman.com


----------



## agricola (Jul 25, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> This is so bad it’s painful to read. Sample quote “This is a glimpse of the country we can become: forward-looking, open, kind, welcoming and in which all talents are fostered; an environment that is hostile only to intolerance. This nation will only come into being if it is led well. But instead of a prime minister who seeks to wrap himself in the flag of this new England, we have one who refused to condemn abuse directed against Southgate’s team”
> 
> Where to start. The desire to wrap himself ‘in the flag’, the implicit acceptance of meritocracy rather than economic and social justice as the only possible way to organise society, the desperate attempt to hitch the Labour Pary bandwagon to the back of the football team, the lack of any policy”….. none of this cut through and made an impression. Even if it did this isn’t - despite what their focus groups are telling them - *how Labour is going to reconnect with those who they need to*.
> 
> ...



As with everything, the problem is that you have people raised and educated in a system being asked to solve a problem whose answer is fundamentally opposed to that system.  One would almost describe this as being like the pre-Reformation Catholic Church being confronted with the Reformation, but even they had a bit of talent.

TBF though I think Labour's only way out of this is to only ever talk about fairness - it nearly always cuts through (as the latest Johnson dip shows) and they'll always have some opportunity to point to this government screwing someone over on behalf of its mates.  You could even use it to deal with the problems of Brexit (as in "Brexit could have worked, but they've done it to benefit them rather than you") and the papers as well.


----------



## Leighsw2 (Jul 25, 2021)

andysays said:


> A sit-com featuring Cliff, Healy and either Sean Matgamna or Frank Furedi (or possibly both) living together in one house sounds like a great idea for a sitcom, even if it might have rather a niche audience appeal.


It could find a place on Netflix. Can we keep the idea of the caravan?


----------



## Serge Forward (Jul 25, 2021)

Google Image Result for https://i.imgur.com/IjcSwFH.jpg?fbplay


----------



## hitmouse (Jul 25, 2021)

You know that option in Zoom meetings and similar where it can generate rough captions that are reasonably accurate most of the time? Just heard from someone who was on a call where the subtitle generator came up with "Chaos Dharma" for the hero of this thread. New favourite piece of rhyming slang.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 26, 2021)

Labour announces launch of ‘new deal for working people’
					

Keir Starmer says initiative to provide good jobs is necessary as economy emerges from Covid crisis




					www.theguardian.com
				





> Labour announces launch of ‘new deal for working people’





> Keir Starmer says initiative to provide good jobs is necessary as economy emerges from Covid crisis


Just after sacking and taking people on with worse pay and conditions. Nice of the Guardian not to mention this in the article though. A new Guardian deal for Starmer


----------



## charlie mowbray (Jul 26, 2021)

belboid said:


> funnily enough, he did none of those things when speaking.  And being a  complete shit doesn't stop you being able to soliloquise.


Yeah, come to think of it, Hitler was a great orator too, and killing millions of people doesn't stop you being able to soliloquise.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 26, 2021)

Obviously from a parochial point of view, but here's the Inside Croydon take on Starmer's neoliberalisation of the LP.

Interesting and potentially smelly involvement of Croydon based _The Campaign Company:_



> Yet while the Labour leadership hands out P45s with all the alacrity of a Tory tycoon, *Inside Croydon* has discovered that in the meantime a Croydon-based business has been working for the party, providing research and consultancy services.
> 
> That business, our loyal reader will have already guessed, is The Campaign Company, the consultancy founded by David Evans, who last year was hand-picked by Starmer to become the General Secretary of the Labour Party


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 26, 2021)

Some clear steals from the Biden infrastructure plan with language like ‘a wage you can raise a family on’. Further use of ideas and policies from the Corbyn era repackaged. A return of ideas once thought dead and buried: the dignity of labour, job security etc

Most importantly further evidence that the political class has grasped that the organisation of the economy will need to change post Covid.

Further evidence - along with the announcement a few weeks back that Labour would use the state’s £290bn procurement budget to buy from British companies - that Labour have finally accepted that the free-market won’t solve the economic questions arising from the pandemic and that government intervention is inevitable. 

For Britain, without the drag anchor of an EU free market model still in thrall to neo-liberalism, a genuine step away from the economic order of the last 45 years looks inevitable:


----------



## brogdale (Jul 26, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Some clear steals from the Biden infrastructure with language like ‘a wage you can raise a family on’. Further use of ideas and policies from the Corbyn era repackaged. A return of ideas once thought dead and buried: the dignity of labour, job security etc
> 
> Most importantly further evidence that the political class has grasped that the organisation of the economy will need to change post Covid.
> 
> ...



Wow, someone got out of bed on the right side, today!


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 26, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Wow, someone got out of bed on the right side, today!



Well, I am on a 4 day week this week... 😀

However, I’m not alone in that view. Firstly, Biden - certainly not a socialist or even a social democrat- is already bringing the state back:



Second, others have been making the argument about the end of neoliberalism and why it’s happening and in what form (other than the decomposition of free market capitalism)



Finally, understanding the shape shifting by capital and its political representatives is essential for our side no?


----------



## glitch hiker (Jul 26, 2021)

I haven't heard Keir stand up for Dawn Butler at all. Maybe I've missed it, tbf. I don't follow the guy as he's as dull as dishwater, but it speaks volumes.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 26, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Well, I am on a 4 day week this week... 😀
> 
> However, I’m not alone in that view. Firstly, Biden - certainly not a socialist or even a social democrat- is already bringing the state back:
> 
> ...



I might take that Meadway interview over to the theory thread as it's probably worth considering in more depth than this thread will afford?


----------



## glitch hiker (Jul 26, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> I haven't heard Keir stand up for Dawn Butler at all. Maybe I've missed it, tbf. I don't follow the guy as he's as dull as dishwater, but it speaks volumes.


Apparently he has actually spoken out for her.









						Dawn Butler was right to call Boris Johnson a liar, says Keir Starmer
					

Starmer backs Labour MP who was ejected from the Commons on Friday after saying PM had lied repeatedly




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 26, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Obviously from a parochial point of view, but here's the Inside Croydon take on Starmer's neoliberalisation of the LP.
> 
> Interesting and potentially smelly involvement of Croydon based _The Campaign Company:_



Lambeth is run in similar fashion. Croydon came unstuck with its failed housing development company.

The other problem with Labour Councils run for years by the right is the entrenched senior officers whose whole careers have been based around serving New Labour.

It ends up as a one party state in some Boroughs

The advent of Corbyn led to influx of young people who were a blessing to us who for years had been dealing with One Party Lambeth over local issues

They actually helped. Labour Cllrs were either unhappy with this or in grudging way put up with them.

What the right want is not ordinary mass membership.

They want a small membership who are vetted by them. No one else is welcome

All my Labour Cllrs supported Starmer for leader.


.


----------



## Dystopiary (Jul 26, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> Apparently he has actually spoken out for her.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He even managed to do that in the blandest possible way.


----------



## Raheem (Jul 26, 2021)

And at the latest possible opportunity.


----------



## elbows (Jul 26, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Some clear steals from the Biden infrastructure plan with language like ‘a wage you can raise a family on’. Further use of ideas and policies from the Corbyn era repackaged. A return of ideas once thought dead and buried: the dignity of labour, job security etc
> 
> Most importantly further evidence that the political class has grasped that the organisation of the economy will need to change post Covid.
> 
> ...




Good, we cant let neoliberalisms last gasp jokes that were an easy response to Johnsons operation last gasp ventilator jokes go to waste.

This stuff should have been on the agenda since at least the financial crisis, but there was a lot of heel-dragging and austerity doing a poor job of filling in the ideological void that was so apaprent in the wake of the financial crisis. These days even the fucking tories probably have their own version of this lurking somewhere in their minds.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 26, 2021)

I see that Starmer's folk have pretty much swept the board at the London Regional Conference, with just a few die-hard Momentumists left:



> Nathan Yeowell, co-director of Labour to Win and executive director of Progressive Britain, said: “These results show just how much the Labour Party is changing under Keir Starmer.
> 
> “Labour to Win-backed candidates have taken 13/16 CLP reps on the new London regional board. We came into this conference holding only 1/14. We’ve also won 3/4 officer positions and have won the elections for chair and both vice-chairs. We started the day with none of these positions.
> 
> “This is what unity looks like in today’s Labour Party – members coming together to put the division and defeat of the past decade behind us. We know that we’ve got to change the party to have any chance of winning the country at the next election.


----------



## tony.c (Jul 26, 2021)

brogdale said:


> I see that Starmer's folk have pretty much swept the board at the London Regional Conference, with just a few die-hard Momentumists left:


Afaik the LRDC didn't do much when it was controlled by the right wing before 2019. The main thing it can do is veto London electoral candidates, so probably there will be mainly right wing candidates approved again from now.


----------



## Leighsw2 (Jul 26, 2021)

brogdale said:


> I see that Starmer's folk have pretty much swept the board at the London Regional Conference, with just a few die-hard Momentumists left:


A report on the conference (note the way it ended!)


----------



## brogdale (Jul 26, 2021)

tony.c said:


> Afaik the LRDC didn't do much when it was controlled by the right wing before 2019. The main thing it can do is veto London electoral candidates, so probably there will be mainly right wing candidates approved again from now.


Yeah, having control means it can overlook any/all fit-ups to disqualify left candidates and impose their own.


----------



## MrSki (Jul 26, 2021)

Did I hear right that a delegate asking about the Forde report was ejected?


----------



## two sheds (Jul 26, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Yeah, having control means it can overlook any/all fit-ups to disqualify left candidates and impose their own.


i.e doing precisely what they've accused the underhanded left of doing. And when the left did get power they at least tried to do what the membership wanted.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 26, 2021)

two sheds said:


> i.e doing precisely what they've accused the underhanded left of doing. And when the left did get power they at least tried to do what the membership wanted.


From an outsiders perspective, the Labour left were never nearly ruthless enough once they had a hand on the internal levers of power.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 26, 2021)

Totally - and I can't see Biden being ruthless enough with the Republicans either (slightly different admittedly) in which case they'll be fucked at the next election.


----------



## elbows (Jul 26, 2021)

elbows said:


> These days even the fucking tories probably have their own version of this lurking somewhere in their minds.


Well I know its the wrong thread for it but having said the above here, this seems appropriate:









						The pandemic has opened up a deep rift within the Conservatives. It will grow | Polly Toynbee
					

How can Britain recover without greater public spending? The tax-cutting party has no answers, says Guardian columnist Polly Toynbee




					www.theguardian.com
				






> A stalemate on decisions, amid rows between a fiscally tight chancellor and a spendthrift prime minister, has unleashed this thrashing-about in Tory ranks. These dilemmas can’t be shelved, but there are no Tory-shaped solutions. Only state intervention, with higher spending and taxes, can confront climate catastrophe – for which, less than 100 days from Cop26 planetary decision-time, there is still no costed roadmap.
> 
> Johnson has options. With one bound he can abandon all pre-election promises: everyone knows the pandemic has changed everything. How easy to proclaim that the emergency means we must now rescue the NHS, education, social care and the social fabric itself: blood, sweat and taxes in a time of crisis. But that’s returning to the Conservative era before Thatcher, the more consensual “Butskellism” which his Thatcher-bred Tory generation detests. For them, the only true Conservative response to these crises is to do nothing, laissez-faire. Rely on the bogus old pretence that cutting “red tape”, “bureaucracy” and “inefficiency” yields a crock of gold at the end of a Tory rainbow.


A post-Covid consensus with some parallels to post-war consensus politics makes sense, but the system is presently full of people who are divorced from reality. Some of them may yet get a clue, but its going to be messy.


----------



## glitch hiker (Jul 26, 2021)

Dystopiary said:


> He even managed to do that in the blandest possible way.


On the Nick Ferracist show where, as he spoke, Nick effected one of those "bullshit" coughs. The ones we all did when we were fifteen (or, if you're me, whenever I hear a Tory speak).


----------



## two sheds (Jul 26, 2021)

> Rely on the bogus old pretence that cutting “red tape”, “bureaucracy” and “inefficiency” yields a crock of gold at the end of a Tory rainbow.



Crock of something.


----------



## TopCat (Jul 26, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> Lambeth is run in similar fashion. Croydon came unstuck with its failed housing development company.
> 
> The other problem with Labour Councils run for years by the right is the entrenched senior officers whose whole careers have been based around serving New Labour.
> 
> ...


Good points well made. Croydon is close to my heart. The council officers had an agenda for two decades that didn’t change when the party in power changed. 
They have demolished much of the town centre in preparation for a Westfield that will never come. 

They borrowed over 500 million quid for nothing. 

A council that can’t even mow the parks now. A council that has lost all key competent staff. 

No accountability at all. All services are in crisis. Statuary meetings don’t happen. 

Croydon will take generations to pay it back. 

The councillors get discredited but the cabal of officers suffer nowt and many are now embedded elsewhere peddilling their commerce driven regeneration bullshit. 
Most of the councillors who voted their agenda through have still no idea how much they were misled. So much wool in their heads it was child’s play to pull it down over their eyes.


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 26, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Good points well made. Croydon is close to my heart. The council officers had an agenda for two decades that didn’t change when the party in power changed.
> They have demolished much of the town centre in preparation for a Westfield that will never come.
> 
> They borrowed over 500 million quid for nothing.
> ...



What concerns me that is relevant to this thread is that its local government where the ordinary person deals with Labour.

The right of the Labour Party derided Corbynists for not being seen as so called competent to run the economy. Yet Croydon is example of the right agenda going spectacularly wrong. And little is heard of it outside local press.

Makes one wonder whether the unreconstructed Blairites who Starmer seems to be working with are really the best people to turn to for "grown up" economic policies. It was after all Blair / Brown light touch regulation of  the City that was one of the reasons for the economic crash.

On officers. My view is that ideologically driven right wing leadership had officers whose careers in local government led them to be imo not independent but part of the new Labour agenda.

Jo Negrini was in Lambeth then became Chief Executive in Croydon. Knowing her from Lambeth she was liked by my New Labour Cllrs as someone who got things done. Whatever residents thought. If they wanted a policy enacted she jumped to it This imo led to  situation where the Chief Executive didn't warn Cllrs of dangers. In that way the officer class and the New Labour leadership were entwined. The senior officers careers were in Blairite Councils. They were loyal to them. 

Imo if Starmer wants to look at something he should look at how Labour Party operates when its in power in local government.

How it deals with residents. Lambeth like to make out they are some kind of flagship Borough working with communities. The actuality is somewhat different. Cynicism about local government leads to low voter turnout.

These are all issues Starmer could be looking at rather than expelling marginal groups to make himself look hard.


----------



## Leighsw2 (Jul 27, 2021)

I have some experience of Lambeth (Progress) Labour. My memory is that they were spending a stupendous amount of public money on a 'cooperative' and 'commissioning' council that simply duplicated existing management structures, created all sort of contested spaces and drove away some of their most competent officers. And all this while slashing expenditure on frontline services. And lets not start on their weird obsession with demolishing council estates and doing sweetheart deals with developers. Remember next door Southwark being had over by Lendlease to redevelop the Heygate estate? (sold off for only £50 million and managing to turn 1200 social homes into less than 100.)

That's Blairism in government (national and local) - monumental incompetence allied to a wide-eyed naivety about the workings of free market capitalism. No wonder the right-wing press are giving Starmer a free ride!


----------



## Leighsw2 (Jul 27, 2021)

brogdale said:


> From an outsiders perspective, the Labour left were never nearly ruthless enough once they had a hand on the internal levers of power.


Absolutely - with no theory of power or strategy to transform the party, they blew their chance.  They won't get another!


----------



## gosub (Jul 29, 2021)

Keir Starmer aide Chris Ward to leave Labour leader’s top team
					

Keir Starmer aide Chris Ward to leave Labour leader’s top teamSpeechwriter and deputy chief of staff becomes latest departure from ‘gang of five’ of close advisers Chris Ward has worked with Keir Starmer since 2015. Photograph: @wardchr82/Twitter




					uk.news.yahoo.com


----------



## Leighsw2 (Jul 29, 2021)

Leighsw2 said:


> ... Remember next door Southwark being had over by Lendlease to redevelop the Heygate estate? (sold off for only £50 million and managing to turn 1200 social homes into less than 100.)


Latest on the Heygate redevelopment. Isn't New Labour marvellous?


----------



## teqniq (Aug 1, 2021)

MadeInBedlam said:


> EHRC out today
> Momentum membership has collapsed
> *Apsana ‘Zionist Masters’ Begum charged with housing fraud*
> 
> I think Starmer has a bit longer to go


Cleared of any wrongdoing. Total silence from Keith, yet he has found the time to congratulate Johnson on the  news that his wife is expecting another baby.


----------



## elbows (Aug 1, 2021)

I've already mentioned this on a covid thread but I wanted to point out here what a useless, vote-chasing piece of pandemic shit Starmer is.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 2, 2021)

things have come to a pretty pass when the labour party a) has to tell the guardian they want to be in government, and b) this is among the top headlines


----------



## elbows (Aug 2, 2021)

My mind translates such stories into "We want to be in government so Starmer can have a variant named after him".


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Aug 2, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> things have come to a pretty pass when the labour party a) has to tell the guardian they want to be in government, and b) this is among the top headlines
> View attachment 281709


'We want to be a guvernmnt'


----------



## PR1Berske (Aug 3, 2021)

teqniq said:


> Cleared of any wrongdoing. Total silence from Keith, yet he has found the time to congratulate Johnson on the  news that his wife is expecting another baby.


I believe Jess Phillips was also silent.


----------



## teqniq (Aug 3, 2021)

PR1Berske said:


> I believe Jess Phillips was also silent.


Yes indeed and as the shadow minister whose remit includes domestic violence it's shameful.


----------



## teqniq (Aug 5, 2021)

What with the fire and rehire thing....yuck:


----------



## Chilli.s (Aug 5, 2021)

I found myself wondering where Sir Keith Spineless is going to go on holiday, anyone know?


----------



## brogdale (Aug 5, 2021)

Chilli.s said:


> I found myself wondering where Sir Keith Spineless is going to go on holiday, anyone know?


Skipton; the heart of Craven district.


----------



## steveseagull (Aug 5, 2021)

Fucking hell


----------



## two sheds (Aug 5, 2021)

Yep rebuild relationship with business so he can get funding, not rebuild relationship with voters.


----------



## ska invita (Aug 5, 2021)

Business had no problem with Corbyn. "Corbynomics" got the seal of approval from major financial bodies, in fact they preferred it to Tory austerity, Starmer is a fucking clueless cunt


----------



## TopCat (Aug 5, 2021)

Oh please. Boris or Blarites. It’s so hard to choose.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 5, 2021)

steveseagull said:


> Fucking hell



No more videos of him at Wapping


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 5, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Business had no problem with Corbyn. "Corbynomics" got the seal of approval from major financial bodies, in fact they preferred it to Tory austerity, Starmer is a fucking clueless cunt


I remember his economic policies being backed by some economists and opposed by another in the FT but who were the major Financial bodies that backed him ?


----------



## not-bono-ever (Aug 5, 2021)

I think it was important that there was an actual plan met broad approval as opposed to no fucking plan from the other side. The financial industry can adapt and profit in pretty much any environment, but it needs the regulatory space and a known  political framework to do this.


----------



## ska invita (Aug 5, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> I remember his economic policies being backed by some economists and opposed by another in the FT but who were the major Financial bodies that backed him ?


It was several years ago now so forget the details but remember it happening particularly after he gave a big speech on Peoples QE etc.
Heres David Blanchflower, the IMF and others nodding along - its a long time ago now i dont remember much more than that








						Jeremy Corbyn wins economists’ backing for anti-austerity policies
					

Former adviser to Bank of England among signatories to letter dismissing criticism of economic plans, saying they are ‘not extreme’




					www.theguardian.com
				



it shouldnt be a surprise when:








						Higher taxes for rich will not harm economic growth, says IMF
					

Increasing inequality within countries could actually be harming economic productivity, the organisation warns in its biannual report




					www.independent.co.uk
				



keynesiasm is now orthodoxy, starmer is living in a time warp


----------



## hitmouse (Aug 5, 2021)

By the way, don't think I've seen any mention of this, and might as well go here since I don't think there's a "Wes Streeting's time is up" thread:


Liverpool Labour seem less than impressed with our Wes, for some reason:


----------



## ska invita (Aug 5, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> By the way, don't think I've seen any mention of this, and might as well go here since I don't think there's a "Wes Streeting's time is up" thread:
> 
> 
> Liverpool Labour seem less than impressed with our Wes, for some reason:



crime is Starmers Big Idea, based i expect because hes a cop.


----------



## Colin Hunt (Aug 5, 2021)

Given that he's a 'third way' man constantly fighting the battles of the 1990s I wouldn't rule out Bill Clinton being the inspiration for this nonsense. 

Also Wes Streeting is a prick.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2021)

ska invita said:


> crime is Starmers Big Idea, based i expect because hes a cop.


Whatever else starmer may be, he's never been a cop.


----------



## ska invita (Aug 5, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Whatever else starmer may be, he's never been a cop.


Director of Prosecutions= cop
the one time ive seen him passionate is defending cops re BLM


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Director of Prosecutions= cop
> the one time ive seen him passionate is defending cops re BLM


No, dpp = cunt

So you never saw him being passionate when he was dpp eh


----------



## Badgers (Aug 6, 2021)

Would have been worse under Corbyn


----------



## Argonia (Aug 6, 2021)

steveseagull said:


> Fucking hell



Sweet Jesus Holy Christ Mother of Mary Holy Mackerel Batman.


----------



## Argonia (Aug 6, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Would have been worse under Corbyn


Personally I think it's time the Labour party split into a Corbyn-led party and a Starmer-led party backed by Mandelson. It probably won't happen but it would sort out the mess. As far as I can see what calls itself Labour now is a divided and unelectable farrago but then my predictions on what the electorate think are always wrong and Starmer will probably come in and form a dreadful administration and I will have to escape to New Zealand. I would sooner vote to be crucified in the town square in Margate live on BBC News 231 than vote for Starmer.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 6, 2021)

It gets better


----------



## steveseagull (Aug 6, 2021)

Has that not happened under Keith? I mean... his biggest fan base seems to be London's middle class #FBPE twits who want to re-join the EU and Lib Dems (though he seems to be even losing the Lib Dems recently)


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Aug 6, 2021)

Deleted


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Aug 6, 2021)

steveseagull said:


> Has that not happened under Keith? I mean... his biggest fan base seems to be London's middle class #FBPE twits who want to re-join the EU and Lib Dems (though he seems to be even losing the Lib Dems recently)



Yeahbut flags though. 

FLAGS!!!1!


----------



## brogdale (Aug 6, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> It gets better



She sounds like just the sort that enjoys a pie and pint down the club on bingo night.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 6, 2021)

brogdale said:


> She sounds like just the sort that enjoys a pie and pint down the club on bingo night.


the biggest concern is that they don't know how to spell quinoa in Crewe


----------



## brogdale (Aug 6, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> the biggest concern is that they don't know how to spell quinoa in Crewe


thick northerners


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 6, 2021)

there was a poll the other day on should he resign and he had far and away the most confidence from lib dem voters. lol.


----------



## andysays (Aug 6, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> It gets better



I feel duty bound to point out here that not everyone in North London lives on fucking quinoa


----------



## Cerv (Aug 6, 2021)

andysays said:


> I feel duty bound to point out here that not everyone in North London lives on fucking quinoa


No, most of us just eat it.


----------



## TopCat (Aug 6, 2021)

andysays said:


> I feel duty bound to point out here that not everyone in North London lives on fucking quinoa


You lie.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 6, 2021)

andysays said:


> I feel duty bound to point out here that not everyone in North London lives on fucking quinoa


They've even discovered couscous in Crewe


----------



## TopCat (Aug 6, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> They've even discovered couscous in Crewe


They use it to fill gaps in door frames.


----------



## andysays (Aug 6, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> They've even discovered couscous in Crewe


Full disclosure: I have eaten couscous a couple of times.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 6, 2021)

TopCat said:


> They use it to fill gaps in door frames.


In outside toilets


----------



## TopCat (Aug 6, 2021)

andysays said:


> Full disclosure: I have eaten couscous a couple of times.


Stone him!


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 6, 2021)

andysays said:


> Full disclosure: I have eaten couscous a couple of times.


I love it , far better than rice imo.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 6, 2021)

andysays said:


> I feel duty bound to point out here that not everyone in North London lives on fucking quinoa


Yeh there's a man down the way who has seen how it's made and refuses to eat it. But he's something of an odd sort anyway


----------



## andysays (Aug 6, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> I love it , far better than rice imo.


My carbs preference chart is probably something like
1 Pasta
2 Potatoes 
3 Risotto rice
4 Basmati

I think I had polenta once, in an Italian restaurant, and it was OK, but I probably wouldn't have it again.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 6, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> I love it , far better than rice imo.


And just add water from a kettle...brilliant staple of the urban, French poor.
I'm all for it!


----------



## MickiQ (Aug 6, 2021)

As someone who was Crewe born and raised I assure we know what quinoa and couscous are, they're something eaten by nancy posh southerners who'd probably be poisoned by real food.
I've tried couscous once or twice, first to see what it was like and secondly to confirm I didn't like it. It's basically (barely) edible dust.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 6, 2021)

brogdale said:


> And just add water from a kettle...brilliant staple of the urban, French poor.
> I'm all for it!


Add a bit of butter  as well


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 6, 2021)

andysays said:


> My carbs preference chart is probably something like
> 1 Pasta
> 2 Potatoes
> 3 Risotto rice
> ...


Cant beat a spud. I like fried polenta


----------



## lazythursday (Aug 6, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> As someone who was Crewe born and raised I assure we know what quinoa and couscous are, they're something eaten by nancy posh southerners who'd probably be poisoned by real food.
> I've tried couscous once or twice, first to see what it was like and secondly to confirm I didn't like it. It's basically (barely) edible dust.


I really think these cultural assumptions and attitudes about food and what is 'real food' have to change / be challenged. Everyones diet has to change over the next decades, north Londoners, posh southerners and working class salt-of-the-earth alike, and this attitude that any 'new' foods are culturally suspect from a working class perspective is fucking stupid.


----------



## gosub (Aug 6, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Oh please. Boris or Blarites. It’s so hard to choose.


Its not. But its a tradgedy and a waste.  Labour had no need to lurch as far as it did under Blair to get elected , and now their doing it again


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 6, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> As someone who was Crewe born and raised I assure we know what quinoa and couscous are, they're something eaten by nancy posh southerners who'd probably be poisoned by real food.
> I've tried couscous once or twice, first to see what it was like and secondly to confirm I didn't like it. It's basically (barely) edible dust.


Next time you try couscous follow the instructions on the packet. Adding water is a core part of the process and stops it being barely edible dust


----------



## MickiQ (Aug 6, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Next time you try couscous follow the instructions on the packet. Adding water is a core part of the process and stops it being barely edible dust


There will be no next time


----------



## maomao (Aug 6, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> As someone who was Crewe born and raised I assure we know what quinoa and couscous are, they're something eaten by nancy posh southerners who'd probably be poisoned by real food.
> I've tried couscous once or twice, first to see what it was like and secondly to confirm I didn't like it. It's basically (barely) edible dust.


Couscous is pasta. If it tasted like dust it hadn't been cooked.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 6, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Next time you try couscous follow the instructions on the packet. Adding water is a core part of the process and stops it being barely edible dust



He's from Crewe you know. Wouldn't be seen dead with any of that namby-pamby southern 'water' muck.


----------



## MickiQ (Aug 6, 2021)

lazythursday said:


> I really think these cultural assumptions and attitudes about food and what is 'real food' have to change / be challenged. Everyones diet has to change over the next decades, north Londoners, posh southerners and working class salt-of-the-earth alike, and this attitude that any 'new' foods are culturally suspect from a working class perspective is fucking stupid.


Don't dislike couscous because it's not authentic 'working class' food, dislike it because it's vile shit (though my occasional taste of caviar hasn't impressed me either) If anyone wants to try and impress my fellow Crewies in the delights of fine dining then be my guest though not many of those I know are likely to be all that keen on  it.


----------



## gosub (Aug 6, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> He's from Crewe you know. Wouldn't be seen dead with any of that namby-pamby southern 'water' muck.


Crewe   The town that could have been Swindon


----------



## Steel Icarus (Aug 6, 2021)

Last couple of pages


----------



## lazythursday (Aug 6, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> Don't dislike couscous because it's not authentic 'working class' food, dislike it because it's vile shit (though my occasional taste of caviar hasn't impressed me either) If anyone wants to try and impress my fellow Crewies in the delights of fine dining then be my guest though not many of those I know are likely to be all that keen on  it.


Not about fine dining - just being open to a diet that is less meat heavy, and as such might include grains and pulses that are new to people. 

(I note that a quick google search reveals that Crewe is not a culinary desert whatsoever)


----------



## two sheds (Aug 6, 2021)

gosub said:


> Crewe   The town that could have been Swindon


? 
Certainly the town that could have been Lichfield


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Aug 6, 2021)

PR1Berske said:


> I believe Jess Phillips was also silent.



I wish she was silent more often all the time.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 6, 2021)

lazythursday said:


> Not about fine dining - just being open to a diet that is less meat heavy, and as such might include grains and pulses that are new to people.
> 
> (I note that a quick google search reveals that Crewe is not a culinary desert whatsoever)


My favourite is Morrocan lamb and couscous


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 6, 2021)

Any Labour Party types on here got any recipes for quinoa?


----------



## two sheds (Aug 6, 2021)

how you pronouncing that?


----------



## brogdale (Aug 6, 2021)

two sheds said:


> how you pronouncing that?


_It's kin-whah, darling_


----------



## two sheds (Aug 6, 2021)

Is that how it's pronounced in where it was invented or something?


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 6, 2021)

two sheds said:


> how you pronouncing that?


twelve youtube videos on this issue , none of them from Crewe


----------



## lazythursday (Aug 6, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Is that how it's pronounced in where it was invented or something?


it's how ordinary peasant Quechua people said it ('kin-wah'), before being spelled funny by the metropolitan elite Spanish. I think.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 6, 2021)

lazythursday said:


> it's how ordinary peasant Quechua people said it ('kin-wah'), before being spelled funny by the metropolitan elite Spanish. I think.


Another reason we were right to leave the EU.


----------



## killer b (Aug 6, 2021)

The _none of that poncy foreign muck for me! _stance some bellends take when they want to be mean about middle class liberals is ludicrous. Listen to yourselves.


----------



## TopCat (Aug 6, 2021)

gosub said:


> Its not. But its a tradgedy and a waste.  Labour had no need to lurch as far as it did under Blair to get elected , and now their doing it again


Well choose one then, Blair or Boris.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 6, 2021)

killer b said:


> The _none of that poncy foreign muck for me! _stance some bellends take when they want to be mean about middle class liberals is ludicrous. Listen to yourselves.



It's satire. Playing up to how the suburban intelligensia expect everyone but themselves and the other members of their book group to behave.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 6, 2021)

Foreign muck pork scratchings, very soft but great with a beer


----------



## killer b (Aug 6, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> It's satire. Playing up to how the suburban intelligensia expect everyone but themselves and the other members of their book group to behave.


I heard the daily mash need some new writers. You should get in touch.


----------



## gosub (Aug 6, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Well choose one then, Blair or Boris.


It'll be Blair (Starmer) and same as with Major because people will have had enough regardless of what the opposition says/does


----------



## brogdale (Aug 6, 2021)

killer b said:


> I heard the daily mash need some new writers. You should get in touch.


Which brings us back, full circle, to pie and...


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Aug 6, 2021)

Have to say that it might be a tired joke now but also people (OK politicians) still do it unironically. Frothy coffee.


----------



## TopCat (Aug 6, 2021)

gosub said:


> It'll be Blair (Starmer) and same as with Major because people will have had enough regardless of what the opposition says/does


So YOU would vote Blair rather than Boris? I just want to be clear?


----------



## ska invita (Aug 6, 2021)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Frothy coffee.



what a moment that was
mindblowing


----------



## elbows (Aug 6, 2021)

Since Trump I believe thats now been replaced with frothy covfefe.

Put on a jacket and tie and have some frothy covfefe.


----------



## Calamity1971 (Aug 6, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Well choose one then, Blair or Boris.


Blair or JOHNSON. Or call the other cunt Tony. FFS


----------



## TopCat (Aug 6, 2021)

Calamity1971 said:


> Blair or JOHNSON. Or call the other cunt Tony. FFS


I will call them both as I choose. Go fuck yourself trying to tell me how to behave.


----------



## Calamity1971 (Aug 6, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I will call them both as I choose. Go fuck yourself trying to tell me how to behave.


Christ. It's been a running joke for some time.
Even if it hadn't that's a bit harsh.
Fwiw I don't think anyone should call him by his first name imo as it makes him more affable.
Have a nice night.


----------



## TopCat (Aug 6, 2021)

Calamity1971 said:


> Christ. It's been a running joke for some time.
> Even if it hadn't that's a bit harsh.
> Fwiw I don't think anyone should call him by his first name imo as it makes him more affable.
> Have a nice night.


Sorry I’m a bit pissed and well sorry.


----------



## TopCat (Aug 6, 2021)

“ Starmer said: “I stood by the miners under the Tories and I stand by their communities now. These communities contributed so much to the success of our country and then they were abandoned. The Tories didn’t care then. And they don’t care now.”

He stood by the miners? I was involved and don’t remember him then at all let alone standing up?


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 6, 2021)

steveseagull said:


> Fucking hell




This is an infuriating read. So he's going back to Blairism. So called business friendly, being Tory lite in practise if he get to be PM.

I don't think this strategy will work. Its not offering anything new. Blair had benefit of doubt as he initially appeared to offer a strategy that worked. It was breath of fresh air after tired Tory regime.

With Boris saying he's levelling up etc I  don't see how strategy of saying Labour will do the same as Tories but a bit better is enough to get me for instance to vote for Starmer.

Also the language he is using of looking back to Blair and Brown. There light touch regulation of the City helped lead to the financial crisis. So just looking to those years uncritically is not good enough. They geniunely believed that free market City was here to stay, they accepted the legacy of Thatcher and thought they could get some concessions from it if they were not to hard on it. In the end this didn't work.

Not saying in an interview with FT that the way the City works is part of the problem is gross negligence on his part as new Labour leader.

Implied is not just Corbyn but soft left Ed Miliband to be rejected.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Aug 6, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> With Boris saying he's levelling up etc I don't see how strategy of saying Labour will do the same as Tories but a bit better is enough to get me for instance to vote for Starmer.



the  new labour / centrist dad "vote labour - we're a bit less shit than the tories" approach

meh


----------



## oryx (Aug 6, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> It gets better





On a more serious note, look at her fourth point. 

I mean fuck joking about quinoa and north London (not aimed at anyone on this thread, rather at her) this is disgraceful shit from Labour's right.


----------



## Raheem (Aug 6, 2021)

TopCat said:


> “ Starmer said: “I stood by the miners under the Tories and I stand by their communities now. These communities contributed so much to the success of our country and then they were abandoned. The Tories didn’t care then. And they don’t care now.”
> 
> He stood by the miners? I was involved and don’t remember him then at all let alone standing up?


I honestly don't wish to stick up for him, but he worked for the NUM as a lawyer. How much he would have stood by the miners unpaid is another question, of course.


----------



## Humberto (Aug 6, 2021)

There is a bureaucratic time serving element to Starmer's ambition, but I think there is more to him. A conscience. Blair is cracked, and his history proves it. There is no use saying the good things he did (domestically), and the election wins when the guy's a loon who opened the gates of hell.


----------



## Rimbaud (Aug 7, 2021)

lazythursday said:


> I really think these cultural assumptions and attitudes about food and what is 'real food' have to change / be challenged. Everyones diet has to change over the next decades, north Londoners, posh southerners and working class salt-of-the-earth alike, and this attitude that any 'new' foods are culturally suspect from a working class perspective is fucking stupid.



Yep honestly...

It seems really fucking dated to insist that "pie and pint" is working class food. 

This isn't the 1970s and believe it or not, you can buy Hummus in Hartlepool. New foreign foods may tend to be embraced by the middle class earlier, but the idea that no working class person in 2021 has ever eaten an avocado is ridiculous.


----------



## gosub (Aug 7, 2021)

TopCat said:


> So YOU would vote Blair rather than Boris? I just want to be clear?


In complete truth I have never voted either for Boris or back in the day Blair, dynamics of where voting in those relevant elections made it, at that level, bette itr focusing on other issues it felt better a use of that particular political effort.


----------



## ska invita (Aug 7, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> This is an infuriating read. So he's going back to Blairism. So called business friendly, being Tory lite in practise if he get to be PM.


Do Starmers inner circle even know what "business" wants? My impression is Business wants Chinese style stimulus whilst borrowing is super cheap.
Theres an open door for this with Biden basically following this path. May and Johnson had no qualms holding hands with Trump, Starmer could so easily be doing the same with Biden. Team Starmer's genius plan of Law and order + balanced budget appeals to literally no one.
At least Blair had some kind of ideological drive courtesy of people like Anthony Giddens and Will Hutton. There seems to be no thinking going on here at all from Starmerites - they seem utterly clueless.


----------



## Raheem (Aug 7, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Do Starmers inner circle even know what "business" wants? My impression is Business wants Chinese style stimulus whilst borrowing is super cheap.
> Theres an open door for this with Biden basically following this path. May and Johnson had no qualms holding hands with Trump, Starmer could so easily be doing the same with Biden. Team Starmer's genius plan of Law and order + balanced budget appeals to literally no one.
> At least Blair had some kind of ideological drive courtesy of people like Anthony Giddens and Will Hutton. There seems to be no thinking going on here at all from Starmerites - they seem utterly clueless.


I don't think it's about what business wants or what anyone else wants. It is, sadly, mainly about internal Labour party stuff. Starmer is all about Blairites getting back in control. And it's the exact same ideology. Law and order and fiscal responsibility is Blairism in a nutshell. It's an article of faith that this is how you get elected.


----------



## Argonia (Aug 7, 2021)

Is Starmzy out yet? Haven't checked BBC News yet


----------



## TopCat (Aug 7, 2021)

Labour’s preoccupation with ‘values’ is a basic political error | Alan Finlayson
					

Demands for change are the raw material of politics. Keir Starmer needs to start addressing them, says politics professor Alan Finlayson




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## TopCat (Aug 7, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Sorry I’m a bit pissed and well sorry.


Urgh. Not my best look. (Hangs head)


----------



## brogdale (Aug 7, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Urgh. Not my best look. (Hangs head)


All been there, pal.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 8, 2021)

_When I were a lad*, we always went to Blackpool for our holiday.

*_living in Oxsted, Surrey, attending Reigate Grammar school.


----------



## ska invita (Aug 8, 2021)

Lowest approval rating to date for Sir SUV according to the observer.

"Keir Starmer’s approval rating is also down, with a net score of -11. It fell from -6 two weeks ago. 28% approve of the job he is doing, while 39% disapprove. It is his worst score since Opinium started tracking him in this way."


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Aug 8, 2021)

ska invita said:


> "Keir Starmer’s approval rating is also down, with a net score of -11. It fell from -6 two weeks ago. 28% approve of the job he is doing



I'd expect higher - would have thought most tories would approve of the job he is doing...


----------



## Argonia (Aug 8, 2021)

brogdale said:


> _When I were a lad*, we always went to Blackpool for our holiday.
> 
> *_living in Oxsted, Surrey, attending Reigate Grammar school.
> 
> View attachment 282685


Bet Starmaggedon is praying to Zeus for a miracle right now. He's going to need water turned into wine and the Lazarus resurrection to poll as much as 3% of the vote


----------



## Argonia (Aug 11, 2021)

Has Starmzy got on that Qantas flight organised by Priti in a window seat next to Boris to exile in the Democratic Republic of Congo yet? I wonder whether he will put wasabi on his sushi on the flight or whether he's a soy sauce man

I imagine he will tik tok his first day in Kinshasha and post up footage of him buying a mango in the market with Boris spunking out his fluent French and literally 7 people including John Bercow will be tuning in avidly to watch the excellent progress


----------



## steveseagull (Aug 11, 2021)

Keith is going to fuck it up with his car isn't he?


----------



## steveseagull (Aug 11, 2021)




----------



## Leighsw2 (Aug 11, 2021)

Well at least Labour finally have a policy!

TINA no less.....


----------



## Argonia (Aug 11, 2021)

Leighsw2 said:


> Well at least Labour finally have a policy!
> 
> TINA no less.....


I just read at YouGov that the one single little policy they have made by an illiterate gnome on a Spinal Tap Stonehenge napkin has surged their popularity to 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% and they are about to take over the country as fast as the Taliban took over Kunduz and three other cities in one day last week. Starmerggeddon is going to run things just as well as Blair did and I can't wait for his invasion of Iraq again because everything has been so well governed there.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Aug 11, 2021)

did the poll ask whether the alpaca would make a better PM than kieth?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 11, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> did the poll ask whether the alpaca would make a better PM than kieth?


I have a lavatory seat that would be a better pm than sks. An alpaca would be much better and more photogenic than sks


----------



## Argonia (Aug 11, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> I have a lavatory seat that would be a better pm than sks. An alpaca would be much better and more photogenic than sks


It's the lavatory seat landslde. Laura Kuennsberg is so busy making out with Robert Peston in a park after drinking 19 cans of Kestrel Super in Leighton Buzzard that she hasn't noticed the surge for the lavatory seat just as none of the journalists saw the Attlee landslide coming in 1945


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Aug 11, 2021)

one third of the labour councillors in wokingham has resigned "in disgust" from the party

more here


----------



## Raheem (Aug 12, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> one third of the labour councillors in wokingham has resigned "in disgust" from the party
> 
> more here


Bloody Woke nonsense.


----------



## Argonia (Aug 12, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> one third of the labour councillors in wokingham has resigned "in disgust" from the party
> 
> more here


Yet another sign in the heavens that Keir Hardiean socialist Starmzy is taking control at the ballot box for his good old revival of war criminal Blair's joyous new dawn in 1997. He just took Kunduz, Sar-e-Pul, Taloqan, and Sherbegan and any minute now Ed Balls will be elected as Chancellor of the Exchequer so he can apply his careful study of Dennis Healey's work and get an IMF loan for the pound sterling and make us all as rich and glorious as Deng Xiaoping promised to make the Chinese. Just like good old war criminal did - we're all rolling in money aren't we?  I can;'t keep track of how much I have got, my accountant just can't figure it out on his Excel spreadsheet.  I just endowed Oriel College like Cecil Rhodes I am so rich.

His local councillors are flocking to his banner in their droves like the Jarrow Crusade marchers and Tories and Liberals and Greens and Left Unity and the Allliance for Green Socialism and the Women's Equality Party and the National Health Action party are converting at rapid pace. All of Change UK have now gone to socialist Starmzy and Heidi Allen will soon join the Cabinet as Josef Goebbels Minister for Public Enlightenment.

Her Tony Benn diaries will make great reading for historians. And good old captain haddock of the RNLI Nigel Farage just threw his hat in the ring with socialist Starmzy because Nigel's Cameo appearances have tanked and gone major bear market and his internet porn show with John Bercow on Only Fans has no viewers and he needs the money and a new job in Cabinet making Rachel Reeves laugh with his Harvey Weinstein chat up lines.

It's so impressive, it really is, how fast the man is taking control at the ballot box.His communications at the dispatch box have been dazzling like war criminal Blair and It's basically Attlee all over again and I for one can't wait for the New Jerusalem.

I'm just reading Hansard now to keep up with all those great speeches he has made. I particularly enjoyed Starmzy last Friday saying "gerrrr halleoe ahdabdhaha eyeye mmmm mumble mumble silly hello can you hear me? is this mike on? um could I have a glass of water please I am a bit tired and confused?"

What a great speech. What an incredle Furher Starmzy is going to be. I for one can't wait for the Nuremberg rally in the Speer stadium and can't wait a single second longer to die an appalling death in the globally warmed 49 degree frozen wastes of the Stalingrad campaign as we recapture Iraq from the ghost of indefatigable Saddam using socialist Keir's incredible military mind. He'll appoint Rory Stewart as Viceroy Mountbatten in Iraq and Iraq will turn into a living fucking paradise.

I personally will run faster than Usain Bolt to put my tick next to socialist Starmzy's name at the election and I will be joined by billions of others.


----------



## elbows (Aug 12, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> did the poll ask whether the alpaca would make a better PM than kieth?


They both lost out to Sir Keir Llama.


----------



## gosub (Aug 12, 2021)

steveseagull said:


> Keith is going to fuck it up with his car isn't he?



when man turns tyrant it is his own freedom that he destroys


----------



## brogdale (Aug 12, 2021)




----------



## steveseagull (Aug 12, 2021)

Keith's ratings continue to tank, and this was before he decided he wanted the alpaca brutally executed


----------



## steveseagull (Aug 12, 2021)

Keith needs another relaunch


----------



## Argonia (Aug 13, 2021)

steveseagull said:


> Keith needs another relaunch



Don't worry, I just captured him and launched him into space with Jeff Bezos and Richard Branson on a V2 rocket to Proxima Centauri where he can be the wisest governor they ever had and sit in his soiled Union Jack boxer shorts siphoning ants through a plastic straw like an ant-eater with war criminal and avowed socialist Tony Blair in a prison cell with thin walls next to Anders Breivik who can shout and rant all night long about his love for Melanie Phillips and deprive glorious socialist Keir and glorious socialist and war criminal Tony of a single ounce of sleep

Goodbye socialist Keir Hardie of the Independent Labour Party. Goodbye for ever.


----------



## Argonia (Aug 13, 2021)

BREAKING BBC NEWS 231

GENIUS HOT SHOT REPORTER LAURA KUENNSBERG WHO NEVER MISSES A TOMMY COOPER TRICK SHE IS SO GOOD AT JOURNALISM JUST TWEETED THAT SINCE ABSOLUTELY EVERYBODY HAS NOW DEPARTED SOCIALIST STARMER TO JOIN JEREMY CORBYN'S NEW BREAKAWAY SOCIALIST LABOUR PARTY STARMZY HAS TEAMED UP WITH GOOD OLD TOTALLY INNOCENT SWEATY NONCE PRINCE ANDREW TO BE HIS LEGAL EAGLE FOR HIS UTTERLY FAILING DEFENCE CASE IN THE TRIAL IN NEW YORK

GO STARMZY!!! GREAT STUFF MATE!!!


----------



## Knotted (Aug 13, 2021)

Starmer rejects McCluskey's claim Labour could be finished under his leadership



> He claims the party will fail to win back "red wall" seats lost to the Tories at the last general election and accuses Sir Keir of an "anti-democratic-crackdown on the left".
> The Labour leader said he was wrong.
> "I've a lot of respect for Len McCluskey but I don't agree with him on everything and this is one where I don't agree with him," said Sir Keir.
> Asked why he did not agree with the union boss's assessment, Sir Keir replied: "Because I think he's wrong."


----------



## steveseagull (Aug 13, 2021)

Keith is like Comical Ali isn't he?


----------



## ska invita (Aug 13, 2021)

He's keeping his power dry until conference in Brighton




> Spoiler: Spoilers!!


----------



## Brainaddict (Aug 13, 2021)

Has he killed the alpaca yet? Focus group said he won't be seen as capable of making the tough choices unless he pulls the trigger of the bolt gun himself.


----------



## andysays (Aug 13, 2021)

Knotted said:


> Starmer rejects McCluskey's claim Labour could be finished under his leadership
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I see now where he got his reputation for forensic argument from...


----------



## Argonia (Aug 13, 2021)

Good old genius hot shot cut reporter Robert Peston who always has his finger right on the pulse of the corpse of British politics has just tweeted that wonderful and amazing and incredible and superb and glorious socialist Starmzy's approval rating has dipped so far into negative territory that he has become infinitely unpopular like a negative David Hilbert hotel. He really is about to annex Kabul at the ballot box and behead the poor old doomed Afghan President and his glorious rule will go on for a thousand fantastic years with pictures of noble blonde haired Aryans with huge biceps adorning every wall in the country and Leni Riefestahl will be resurrected like Jesus to do the films that everybody will absolutely devour at their local Odeons. What fun. His approval rating will rocket even further even day into more and more negatively infinite territory like Georg Cantor's different forms of infinity. Socialist Keir really is incredible. He's the Gregor Strasser of Britain!


----------



## Riklet (Aug 13, 2021)

He wants Geronimo dead... 

Not that I actually care. But it's just a measure of how stupid and lacking in political skill Sir Keir really is. Total dumbo.


----------



## Argonia (Aug 13, 2021)

Riklet said:


> He wants Geronimo dead...
> 
> Not that I actually care. But it's just a measure of how stupid and lacking in political skill Sir Keir really is. Total dumbo.


Oh come on mate. Starmer is a brilliant genius like good old Johnny Mercer MP who is basically Winston Churchill and his fluent Pashtun and incredible knowledge of Afghan terrain and conditions like Napoleon hubrstically driving into Russia will ensure that the 750 British boys left in the Taliban's domain all of whom have PTSD and are in wheelchairs will lead a mindblowing assault on Taliban installations and wipe them off the map for good and lead to Mercer's faboulous thousand year Reich. Mercer like the 1 in 6 students in this country who can't grasp the Englsh alphabet but are still given an A* at A-level is so intelligent the 17 billion people in globally warmed 67 degree Britain will vote him in a coalition in an Attlee landslide at the ballot box with incredible genius Starmer and North Korean Britain will be governed wonderfully as per fucking usual and it will be an absolute fucking paradise. I just checked YouGov and Opninium and Starmer has just surged to 150,000,000% approval like Ceacescu in Romania as he was helicoptered out of Romania in 1989 as a rabid crowd of his totally delighted supporters closed in on the balcony fast.

My predictions are always and entirely wrong - apart from Italy winning the Euros and the Taliban retaking Afghanistan - but I do not foresee Starmer roaring to a 1997 landslide at the ballot box to reinstittue the Blairism that went so spectacularly wrong before.


----------



## ska invita (Aug 13, 2021)

Riklet said:


> He wants Geronimo dead...
> 
> Not that I actually care. But it's just a measure of how stupid and lacking in political skill Sir Keir really is. Total dumbo.
> 
> View attachment 283462


ive never even heard of this alpaca other than that Starmer wants it dead 

eta: in fact its the only policy i could site of his!


----------



## maomao (Aug 13, 2021)

I have a lot of sympathy for Geronimo's owner actually. They could at least do a retest.


----------



## Chz (Aug 14, 2021)

maomao said:


> I have a lot of sympathy for Geronimo's owner actually. They could at least do a retest.


I don't. If they're that determined that the test is wrong _twice_ then they can bloody well pay for their own test.


----------



## teqniq (Aug 14, 2021)

Ken Loach expelled from Labour. What an absolute joke the party has become under Starmer (not that it wasn't full of faults before but this is just ridiculous).


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Aug 14, 2021)

Fuck the revisionist Starmer and his racist, pro-apartheid clique!


----------



## Chz (Aug 14, 2021)

I'm surprised they let him back in after the Respect debacle. Definitely not the sign that Labour want to be giving out right now though.


----------



## Argonia (Aug 14, 2021)

#starmerout trending at Twitter and the tweets are roaring away like George Stephenson's rocket on an Isambard Kingdom Brunel suspension bridge

The banishment of complete genius Ken Loach to live with Bonaparte on Elba has really fired up the frenzied supporters of good old socialist Starmzy


----------



## Wilf (Aug 14, 2021)

All this taking on the left in the party has become absurd even as a day to day tactic. It was awful politics and stopped the party taking on the tories. But now its gone beyond that and well into pointlessness.  Nobody is listening.

'Look, look, we've kicked Ken Loach out!  I'm a really strong leader' 
'Err, right mate, sure, grand'.


----------



## AnnO'Neemus (Aug 14, 2021)

steveseagull said:


> Fucking hell



Embracing the legacy of one of the most loathed party leaders is sure to be a winning strategy.

FFS, who on earth is advising him to do this shit?


----------



## ska invita (Aug 14, 2021)

am interested if those who follow the antisemitism stuff closely (like killer b , hitmouse  perhaps?) see any justification in the Loach expulsion?


----------



## AnnO'Neemus (Aug 14, 2021)

Wilf said:


> All this taking on the left in the party has become absurd even as a day to day tactic. It was awful politics and stopped the party taking on the tories. But now its gone beyond that and well into pointlessness.  Nobody is listening.
> 
> 'Look, look, we've kicked Ken Loach out!  I'm a really strong leader'
> 'Err, right mate, sure, grand'.


Has anyone been calling for this kind of action? Like, 'I'm a long time party member but Ken Loach is beyond the pale and I won't vote Labour again while he's still a member'? And if so, in significant numbers?

I can't understand why the Labour Party continues to destroy itself like this. 

I know some people - as above - make the point it's a choice between Boris or Blairites, like there's no contest, people will have to hold their noses and vote Labour. But the problem is that it's not a binary choice. There are other parties. Scotland is lost to Labour, there are other parties to vote for and which have a chance of winning seats, albeit not a majority. But the other option is to not vote at all. Because people don't feel there's anyone or any party worth voting for.


----------



## ska invita (Aug 14, 2021)

AnnO'Neemus said:


> Has anyone been calling for this kind of action?


Mandelson and other Blairites have openly called for the "far left" to be kicked out.
Right wing Jewish groups have been calling for perceived "anti-semites" to be kicked out, including Loach.


----------



## hitmouse (Aug 14, 2021)

ska invita said:


> am interested if those who follow the antisemitism stuff closely (like killer b , hitmouse  perhaps?) see any justification in the Loach expulsion?


Will have to look into it a bit more, I didn't know it'd happened until now. For all I know he might've been kicked out for saying the alpaca deserves to live.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 14, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Will have to look into it a bit more, I didn't know it'd happened until now. For all I know he might've been kicked out for saying the alpaca deserves to live.


That's the sort of llama reason I'd expect from labour


----------



## Johnny Vodka (Aug 14, 2021)

AnnO'Neemus said:


> Has anyone been calling for this kind of action? Like, 'I'm a long time party member but Ken Loach is beyond the pale and I won't vote Labour again while he's still a member'? And if so, in significant numbers?
> 
> I can't understand why the Labour Party continues to destroy itself like this.
> 
> I know some people - as above - make the point it's a choice between Boris or Blairites, like there's no contest, people will have to hold their noses and vote Labour. But the problem is that it's not a binary choice. There are other parties. Scotland is lost to Labour, there are other parties to vote for and which have a chance of winning seats, albeit not a majority. But the other option is to not vote at all. Because people don't feel there's anyone or any party worth voting for.



Surely it's about making the case for left-wing/progressive politics rather than giving up and trying to steal Tory voters?


----------



## hitmouse (Aug 14, 2021)

Had a look at the Guardian article on Loach, and they just quote a Labour spokesperson as saying “We are not going to comment on individual cases. As previously reported, the NEC took the decision to proscribe a number of organisations at its last meeting.” I'm not really familiar enough with every statement Loach has ever made to say that he's definitely never done anything wrong, but that Labour statement doesn't really give a convincing case for why he needed to be expelled either. The case made against Loach in this (Feb 2021) JC article looks pretty fucking flimsy too.


----------



## killer b (Aug 14, 2021)

ska invita said:


> am interested if those who follow the antisemitism stuff closely (like killer b , hitmouse  perhaps?) see any justification in the Loach expulsion?


sorry, I've not followed any of it closely in several years. loach is just a member of one of the recently proscribed groups though I think?


----------



## Shechemite (Aug 14, 2021)

I’ve seen some talk about links with Labour against the witch-hunt but haven’t checked as tbh find it hard to give a shit either way any more


----------



## Cerv (Aug 14, 2021)

Was surprised to learn today that Loach was still a member of the party


----------



## belboid (Aug 14, 2021)

he has an honorary position with against the witchhunt, iirr.  That will be enough to  haul him jup and if he refuses to repudiate them....


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 15, 2021)

His expulsion will hopefully be chronicled in a forthcoming film. One boy and his pet project to destroy the labour party.
_
Keir _


----------



## Argonia (Aug 15, 2021)

Cerv said:


> Was surprised to learn today that Loach was still a member of the party


I am off politics entirely now and leave it to the good people of the nation to decide at the ballot box and now I am in the police my only concern is to lay the handcuffs on Tony Blair for his war crimes trial in the Hague so I can be fast tracked to Chief Constable of Northumbria Police but I thought genius Ken was safe with Left Unity who I will be voting for but there you go.  I am totally mystified by Generalissimo Starmer who seems to want to re-enact the utter failure of Blairism just as the force is slowly starting to close on in to get him off to that Hague pilgrimage. Goodbye from me. The only thread I will now post on is the Blair to the Hague thread. Over and out.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 15, 2021)

Kicked out for failing to denounce the unpersons.

Still, at least the reign of the mad communist Corbyn is over.


----------



## two sheds (Aug 15, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Kicked out for failing to denounce the unpersons.
> 
> Still, at least the reign of the mad communist Corbyn is over.


Stalinist Corbyn surely, who expelled all those disloyal right wingers ... err


----------



## Badgers (Aug 16, 2021)

> The idea that Ken Loach is expelled by Labour but Peter Mandelson a friend of Jeffrey Epstein, who hung himself in prison whilst awaiting trial on sex trafficking is still a member and a trusted advisor to the Labour Leader does raise questions about moral vacuity.



John Smith


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 17, 2021)

This should do the trick


----------



## killer b (Aug 17, 2021)

I saw Agile Ceremonies supporting Nation of Ulysses at Manchester Roadhouse in 1992, they were incredible live.


----------



## ruffneck23 (Aug 17, 2021)

Agile ceremonies, isnt that to do with project management ? ( I only know as I was reading up on AGILE last night.)

People aren't going to do that for peanuts.


----------



## hitmouse (Aug 17, 2021)

Isn't product slang for drugs? I can sort of see the logic of the agile MCs being asked to adopt a coked-up mindset.


----------



## ruffneck23 (Aug 17, 2021)

alas no









						Agile Ceremonies: Your Ultimate Guide To the Four Stages
					

Agile ceremonies are a framework for productive teamwork in product development. To do them well, you need to understand the methodology behind each step.




					www.easyagile.com


----------



## hitmouse (Aug 17, 2021)

Labourlist writeup here:








						Exclusive: Labour general secretary unveils new party structure to staff – LabourList
					

Labour general secretary David Evans used an all-staff meeting today to unveil the new party structure that has emerged from the 'Organise to Win' process,…




					labourlist.org


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Aug 17, 2021)

killer b said:


> I saw Agile Ceremonies supporting Nation of Ulysses at Manchester Roadhouse in 1992, they were incredible live.


Yeah, but that was after they sold out and went electric.


----------



## oryx (Aug 17, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> This should do the trick



Clearly shows the type of people the Labour Party are looking to employ nowadays. That's real Boardroom Bingo stuff!


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 17, 2021)

Martin Luther King may have had a dream but suffered from a campaign  which  lacked flat dynamic structures and  no clear role definitions for staff


----------



## oryx (Aug 17, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Martin Luther King may have had a dream but suffered from a campaign  which  lacked flat dynamic structures and  no clear role definitions for staff
> 
> View attachment 284034
> 
> ...


'...flat, dynamic structures where all views are respected and welcomed.' Isn't that a bit of a hypocrisy in the wider scheme of things?


----------



## hitmouse (Aug 17, 2021)

repetition, repetition, repetition


----------



## teqniq (Aug 17, 2021)

Agile ceremonies sounds like something straight out of Pseuds corner.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 17, 2021)

oryx said:


> '...flat, dynamic structures where all views are respected and welcomed.' Isn't that a bit of a hypocrisy in the wider scheme of things?


All views within reason obviously, they are voter centric not staff centric


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 17, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> View attachment 284041
> repetition, repetition, repetition


not much evidence of a flat dynamic structures or multi disciplinary management there


----------



## hitmouse (Aug 17, 2021)

Why did the farmer who also had a part-time job as a courier win an award?


----------



## elbows (Aug 17, 2021)

Our scrote-centric approach is based on a foundation of fickle goal dynamics. We brought together the best of the organisation and discovered that they could fit into a small flat, with a strong dynamic towards throwing themselves out of the window. Transactions included the redistribution of wealth in favour of management consultants and their well-worn templates. The emperors new flow-chart is about as inspired, fresh and relevant as our policies.


----------



## hitmouse (Aug 17, 2021)

From late July, but only just seen this:





						Funding for Labour in London pulled after caretaker sacked
					

Sacking over honest error looks like political victimisation




					gmb.org.uk


----------



## Sue (Aug 17, 2021)

ruffneck23 said:


> Agile ceremonies, isnt that to do with project management ? ( I only know as I was reading up on AGILE last night.)
> 
> People aren't going to do that for peanuts.


It's a right load of old bollocks is what it is. HTH.


----------



## ruffneck23 (Aug 17, 2021)

Sue said:


> It's a right load of old bollocks is what it is. HTH.


Yes , you're right, even more so when it comes to the LP


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 17, 2021)




----------



## hitmouse (Aug 17, 2021)

Genuinely proper giggled at that.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Aug 17, 2021)




----------



## teqniq (Aug 17, 2021)

This is pretty dire. Keith in Wolverhampton earlier.



Many of the replies are amusing. this is one of my favourites:


----------



## Quote (Aug 17, 2021)

The Magical Misery Tour.


----------



## elbows (Aug 18, 2021)

Hopefully they are part of a series of inspiring images as he heads north. The Road to Wigan Keir.


----------



## hitmouse (Aug 18, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


>



I suppose you could say that the GMB and Unite are... organising to win?


----------



## two sheds (Aug 18, 2021)

Starmer will have to form a scrum  



> In a nutshell, Scrum requires a Scrum Master to foster an environment where:





> 1. A Product Owner orders the work for a complex problem into a Product Backlog.
> 2. The Scrum Team turns a selection of the work into an Increment of value during a Sprint.
> 3. The Scrum Team and its stakeholders inspect the results and adjust for the next Sprint.
> 4. Repeat


----------



## Kaka Tim (Aug 18, 2021)

i saw this "agile ceremonies" gobbledegook on my facebook and assumed it was a spoof. Fucking hell - just how divorced from reality are these bellends?


----------



## ska invita (Aug 18, 2021)

Kaka Tim said:


> just how divorced from reality are these bellends?









above head height


----------



## two sheds (Aug 18, 2021)

Kaka Tim said:


> i saw this "agile ceremonies" gobbledegook on my facebook and assumed it was a spoof. Fucking hell - just how divorced from reality are these bellends?


You just have no idea what a Scrum Master does do you?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 18, 2021)

Kaka Tim said:


> i saw this "agile ceremonies" gobbledegook on my facebook and assumed it was a spoof. Fucking hell - just how divorced from reality are these bellends?



They're on about their seventh rebrand/relaunch since Starmer took over. And at no point in any of this soul-searching did anyone pitch the idea of 'talking like human beings'.

The 'prototyping' stuff is C&P'ed straight from generic business consultancy drivel, without anyone noticing that a political party is not actually supposed to design and sell vacuum cleaners or ready meals.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Aug 19, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> without anyone noticing that a political party is not actually supposed to design and sell vacuum cleaners or ready meals.



but they do seem to be good at designing and (trying to) sell a vacuum...


----------



## 8ball (Aug 19, 2021)

teqniq said:


> This is pretty dire. Keith in Wolverhampton earlier.
> 
> 
> 
> Many of the replies are amusing. this is one of my favourites:




Not sure why, but that first image looks really shopped to me.  
(I know it isn't)


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 19, 2021)

8ball said:


> Not sure why, but that first image looks really shopped to me.
> (I know it isn't)



Cold War Steve is doing his pictures in real life now.


----------



## Wilf (Aug 19, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Martin Luther King may have had a dream but suffered from a campaign  which  lacked flat dynamic structures and  no clear role definitions for staff
> 
> View attachment 284034
> 
> ...


I quite like the bit about it 'making it easy for voters to understand who we are and what we stand for'.  Oh my.

I've always been aware that moderate sized organisations of the centre left (lol), such as parties and charities, operate with the same kind of managerial tools* and language as the rest of capital.  But there's something stark seeing it set out, particularly if you haven't been keeping an eye on how Labour's organisation evolved over the years, say from the Campbell era onwards.  There's almost a sense of _madness_, where processes and power structures have been so reshaped that it's impossible to insert any other kind of values or outcomes. Of course that's the point of it, it gives power to those who deploy this voodoo.  But it's also a truly shit way of doing politics.  The whole thing is transacted in words of madness, making it near impossible that the outcome will be political messages and conversations that speak to voters and their actual human concerns.

* Pun potential.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 19, 2021)

Wilf said:


> I quite like the bit about it 'making it easy for voters to understand who we are and what we stand for'.  Oh my.
> 
> I've always been aware that moderate sized organisations of the centre left (lol), such as parties and charities, operate with the same kind of managerial tools* and language as the rest of capital.  But there's something stark seeing it set out, particularly if you haven't been keeping an eye on how Labour's organisation evolved over the years, say from the Campbell era onwards.  There's almost a sense of _madness_, where processes and power structures have been so reshaped that it's impossible to insert any other kind of values or outcomes. Of course that's the point of it, it gives power to those who deploy this voodoo.  But it's also a truly shit way of doing politics.  The whole thing is transacted in words of madness, making it near impossible that the outcome will be political messages and conversations that speak to voters and their actual human concerns.
> 
> * Pun potential.


A viable alternative orthodox model would be guided community activism. Key national messages  from the centre with bespoke messaging on local issues aided by a marketing and comms team at the centre.  Local teams empowered with good data and market segmentation . Development of membership with training and coaching etc etc . 
The current set of proposals are essentially for an organisation without a participatory membership based on restructuring the central office at a time of financial pressure . Even without any politics it’s stale and timid .


----------



## hitmouse (Aug 19, 2021)

One piece of good news for Starmer though, I was going to say that alpaca seems to be on the verge of beating him in court, but apparently the alpaca's time is up.


----------



## glitch hiker (Aug 19, 2021)

No fan of Starmer, nor his tedious droning blather at the despatch box yesterday, but hearing the Tories yelling "sit down" was pretty sickening. If entirely typical


----------



## Wilf (Aug 19, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> A viable alternative orthodox model would be guided community activism. Key national messages  from the centre with bespoke messaging on local issues aided by a marketing and comms team at the centre.  Local teams empowered with good data and market segmentation . Development of membership with training and coaching etc etc .
> The current set of proposals are essentially for an organisation without a participatory membership based on restructuring the central office at a time of financial pressure . Even without any politics it’s stale and timid .


It did feel a bit like a 60s science fiction film where they enter a city and find the computers are still running some mad routine, but the population died off thousands of years ago.


----------



## hitmouse (Aug 19, 2021)

Wilf said:


> It did feel a bit like a 60s science fiction film where they enter a city and find the computers are still running some mad routine, but the population died off thousands of years ago.


Do you know the Lee Healey/Barney Farmer cartoon with the Britpop-mad dad who insists on DJing his daughter's wedding and ruins the reception by just constantly playing Oasis?

Funny in its own right, but one could also see the character who blindly refuses to accept that it's no longer the mid-1990s as being somehow an allegory for something or other.


----------



## Calamity1971 (Aug 22, 2021)

Have we had Keefs new slogan yet? ' Win the future'
Said it in the Guardian and now tweeting.
Has no one pointed out the acronym to him  🤣


----------



## NoXion (Aug 23, 2021)

WTF


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 23, 2021)

Calamity1971 said:


> Have we had Keefs new slogan yet? ' Win the future'
> Said it in the Guardian and now tweeting.
> Has no one pointed out the acronym to him  🤣




"You shall be king"


----------



## andysays (Aug 23, 2021)

Calamity1971 said:


> Have we had Keefs new slogan yet? ' Win the future'
> Said it in the Guardian and now tweeting.
> Has no one pointed out the acronym to him  🤣



Quite apart from the acronym, is that photo of Starmer with three older (and all white) women really the best illustration of what winning the future looks like?


----------



## glitch hiker (Aug 23, 2021)

andysays said:


> Quite apart from the acronym, is that photo of Starmer with three older (and all white) women really the best illustration of what winning the future looks like?


Those three ladies certainly don't look like the future :O


----------



## steveseagull (Aug 23, 2021)

Keith Stalin


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 23, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> "You shall be king"


tbh it's more starmerella will go to the ball.


----------



## oryx (Aug 23, 2021)

andysays said:


> Quite apart from the acronym, is that photo of Starmer with three older (and all white) women really the best illustration of what winning the future looks like?





glitch hiker said:


> Those three ladies certainly don't look like the future :O



Ageist. 

The women are about 75 at a guess. It's entirely possible they'll live another twenty years, and be rightly concerned about the NHS and social care.


----------



## andysays (Aug 23, 2021)

oryx said:


> ...The women are about 75 at a guess. It's entirely possible they'll live another twenty years, and be rightly concerned about the NHS and social care.



Quite true, but do you really think that photo of Starmer with three older (and all white) women is the best illustration of what winning the future looks like?


----------



## two sheds (Aug 23, 2021)

Calamity1971 said:


> Have we had Keefs new slogan yet? ' Win the future'
> Said it in the Guardian and now tweeting.
> Has no one pointed out the acronym to him  🤣




They've clearly been forming scrums to come up with all of this. Admiration for whichever team player came up with Win The Future. Three word slogan, Catchy, memorable.


----------



## glitch hiker (Aug 23, 2021)

oryx said:


> Ageist.
> 
> The women are about 75 at a guess. It's entirely possible they'll live another twenty years, and be rightly concerned about the NHS and social care.


It was a joke, ffs. 

Though given Labour's electorate are largely younger one wonders why not appeal to them more since they are going to be the future of the party. It' snot the most vibrant campaign is it, hoping to steal the Tories' traditional demographic


----------



## oryx (Aug 23, 2021)

andysays said:


> Quite true, but do you really think that photo of Starmer with three older (and all white) women is the best illustration of what winning the future looks like?


No, but it's designed to appeal to northern, older, Red Wall voters, who are the people Labour needs to win back.


----------



## ruffneck23 (Aug 23, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> It was a joke, ffs.
> 
> Though given Labour's electorate are largely younger one wonders why not appeal to them more since they are going to be the future of the party. It' snot the most vibrant campaign is it, hoping to steal the Tories' traditional demographic


Because the younger people believe in socialism and that's a no no for Keir and his motley crew.

My friend's 16 year old is convinced he is a tory plant


----------



## oryx (Aug 23, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> It was a joke, ffs.
> 
> Though given Labour's electorate are largely younger one wonders why not appeal to them more since they are going to be the future of the party. It' snot the most vibrant campaign is it, hoping to steal the Tories' traditional demographic



Because Labour need to win floating voters, who may or may not be the Tories' traditional demographic.

I have a lot of issues with Starmer, mainly around the kind of thing that steveseagull posted above, but an attempt to appeal to older, Northern voters by using a photograph of their demographic group isn't particularly one of them.


----------



## Cerv (Aug 23, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> It was a joke, ffs.
> 
> Though given Labour's electorate are largely younger one wonders why not appeal to them more since they are going to be the future of the party. It' snot the most vibrant campaign is it, hoping to steal the Tories' traditional demographic



they already have the young vote locked up. to win elections need to also win over at least some of the (older) people who voted elsewhere.

unless you think this photo op is going to lose them more their existing voters than it gains them. it seems pretty inoffensive though.


----------



## andysays (Aug 23, 2021)

oryx said:


> No, but it's designed to appeal to northern, older, Red Wall voters, who are the people Labour needs to win back.


Do you think it's deliberately designed that way? I'm not sure, TBH. 

But if so, I don't think Labour should be putting all its eggs in the "northern, older, Red Wall voters" basket, not to the extent of of only including that sort of person in images like this, especially if they're launching a slogan about Winning the Future.

IMO, they should use images that suggest a far wider appeal, perhaps using three women of different generations to symbolise/suggest this. 

I think it's also unfortunate that all the women are white, TBH.


----------



## tony.c (Aug 23, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Admiration for whichever team player came up with Win The Future. Three word slogan, Catchy, memorable.


Or WTF for short?


----------



## oryx (Aug 23, 2021)

andysays said:


> But if so, I don't think Labour should be putting all its eggs in the "northern, older, Red Wall voters" basket, not to the extent of of only including that sort of person in images like this, especially if they're launching a slogan about Winning the Future.



Neither do I, at all, but your posting seems to suggest that 'older, white women' and 'the future' are mutually exclusive.


----------



## andysays (Aug 23, 2021)

oryx said:


> Neither do I, at all, but your posting seems to suggest that 'older, white women' and 'the future' are mutually exclusive.


It really doesn't.


----------



## oryx (Aug 23, 2021)

andysays said:


> It really doesn't.


Certainly does to me.


----------



## andysays (Aug 23, 2021)

oryx said:


> Certainly does to me.


Well, TBH, I think that says more about your misinterpretation than about anything I've actually written.


----------



## oryx (Aug 23, 2021)

andysays said:


> Well, TBH, I think that says more about your misinterpretation than about anything I've actually written.


O............K


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Aug 23, 2021)

Cerv said:


> they already have the young vote locked up.



do they?

i haven't got the energy to look for links, but there's some suggestions that the green party is picking up some  young people

theres one or two new leftish parties that might pick up a small handful of votes

there's the 'not voting' option (i'm hardly a youth but not sure i could be bothered to vote if there was a ge any time soon)

and there's always the chance the limp dems will realise there's not much to be gained from being the 3rd choice tory party and try and make noises to attract them?


----------



## NoXion (Aug 23, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> do they?
> 
> i haven't got the energy to look for links, but there's some suggestions that the green party is picking up some  young people
> 
> ...



Labour lost the "red wall" in part because they took those votes for granted. I wouldn't be surprised if further losses with other demographics were to happen, hardly unlikely with the current shower in charge.


----------



## Serene (Aug 23, 2021)

How has this obviously rich Tory got in control of the Labour party? Does he pretend to like football to convince people he is working class?


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 23, 2021)




----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Aug 24, 2021)

I'm sure all the younger voters who turned out to vote for Corbyn and his policies were just safe Labour votes who'll be equally happy voting for a party who dismiss their concerns in favour of appealing to (their own weird idea of) old northern voters.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 24, 2021)

Cerv said:


> they already have the young vote locked up. to win elections need to also win over at least some of the (older) people who voted elsewhere.



They don't have the young vote locked up at all. Corbyn did, so Starmer spent a year and a half scouring any trace of him from the party.


----------



## kabbes (Aug 24, 2021)

The youth who grew up in a world already remade in a Thatcherite conceptualisation of society, for whom Blairite public-private partnerships are a given and it is natural to see the market as the best way of organising things — these youth are natural Conservative voters.


----------



## killer b (Aug 24, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> They don't have the young vote locked up at all. Corbyn did


don't think this is totally true - in 2017 maybe, but there was big swings away from Labour in the young in 2019


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 24, 2021)

kabbes said:


> The youth who grew up in a world already remade in a Thatcherite conceptualisation of society, for whom Blairite public-private partnerships are a given and it is natural to see the market as the best way of organising things — these youth are natural Conservative voters.


Not surprising for the reasons you state. Saw some research a few years ago which showed on social issues very liberal but on economic issues conservative, be interesting to have a dig to see if there are any class issues and whether this still stands up.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 24, 2021)

Still recall that Labour , at least under Corbyn had an impressive youth vote but that young people less likely to vote


----------



## kabbes (Aug 24, 2021)

Yes, the biggest risk to the Tories in terms of youth voters is being the nasty party. So long as they say the right things about diversity and identity rights and other social liberal ideas, they’ll be fine with the youth


----------



## a_chap (Aug 24, 2021)

Have just seen the new catchphrase "Win the future".

Has no-one got the balls to tell him it's missing the word "in"? A rhetorical question, I know, but at least him saying he wants to "win *in* the future" make some sense.

"Win the future" is literally meaningless.


----------



## maomao (Aug 24, 2021)

a_chap said:


> Have just seen the new catchphrase "Win the future".
> 
> Has no-one got the balls to tell him it's missing the word "in"? A rhetorical question, I know, but at least him saying he wants to "win *in* the future" make some sense.
> 
> "Win the future" is literally meaningless.


No it's not. It's shit but it's not meaningless and 'win in the future' (when? 300 years from now?) would be even shitter. The future cannot be literally 'won' but if the only meaningful sentences were ones that were capable of being literally true then almost no literature or art would exist.


----------



## ska invita (Aug 24, 2021)

in a world hurtling to climate catastrophe Win A Future almost works


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 24, 2021)

didn't realise sks had been human rights adviser to the northern ireland policing board - found this by chance







The Frontiers of Public Law p514-515


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Aug 24, 2021)

Luke Akehurst looks like if Chris Evans got microwaved (and got burnt and exploded).


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 24, 2021)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Luke Akehurst looks if Chris Evans got microwaved.
> View attachment 284981


he really is an orange man


----------



## kabbes (Aug 24, 2021)

Wind the future.


----------



## magneze (Aug 24, 2021)

Underpants Gnomes


----------



## elbows (Aug 24, 2021)

Hopefully the silly slogans about the future are a sign that their next election campaign will be built around this song.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Aug 24, 2021)

a_chap said:


> "Win the future" is literally meaningless.



absolutely perfect for the starmerites then


----------



## two sheds (Aug 24, 2021)

a_chap said:


> Have just seen the new catchphrase "Win the future".
> 
> Has no-one got the balls to tell him it's missing the word "in"? A rhetorical question, I know, but at least him saying he wants to "win *in* the future" make some sense.
> 
> "Win the future" is literally meaningless.


But that's WiTF it don't work 

I also hate the winners/losers shit


----------



## JimW (Aug 24, 2021)

Tomorrow belongs to me.


----------



## PR1Berske (Aug 24, 2021)

kabbes said:


> The youth who grew up in a world already remade in a Thatcherite conceptualisation of society, for whom Blairite public-private partnerships are a given and it is natural to see the market as the best way of organising things — these youth are natural Conservative voters.


This is a truth often forgotten. In our digital age, where so many younger people are encouraged to make a go at starting their own YT/Tiktok/etc account to make money, and to be individual businesses in a modern day equivalent of Thatcher's start-up economy, the old world is antique. If you're relatively young, got a mortgage, doing okay for yourself, you're not voting Labour.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 24, 2021)

a_chap said:


> "Win the future" is literally meaningless.



Which is the only thing I've seen from Starmer and pals in years that makes me think they might have figured out how this game works. We are living in the era of 'Brexit Means Brexit' after all.

Of course the one thing they haven't picked up on is you also need half a dozen newspapers on your side who will repeat your chosen piece of three-word gibberish so often that it actually becomes a real thing that a sane person might say.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 24, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Which is the only thing I've seen from Starmer and pals in years that makes me think they might have figured out how this game works. We are living in the era of 'Brexit Means Brexit' after all.
> 
> Of course the one thing they haven't picked up on is you also need half a dozen newspapers on your side who will repeat your chosen piece of three-word gibberish so often that it actually becomes a real thing that a sane person might say.


a sane person will say 'win the future' now. only they'll suffix it with 'is a really shit vacuous slogan' or similar

brexit means brexit is a mayism
win the future is a starmerism, a phrase which sounds like a great promise but is vacuous and devoid of meaning


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Aug 24, 2021)

You can look at the stars, look at the ocean; 
The answer's somewhere, here's what I reckon: 
Close your eyes,  win the future,  junk the morgue.


----------



## two sheds (Aug 24, 2021)

Jam tomorrow


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Aug 24, 2021)

'Win the furniture' would have been a better slogan. At least it makes sense.


----------



## Knotted (Aug 24, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> a sane person will say 'win the future' now. only they'll suffix it with 'is a really shit vacuous slogan' or similar
> 
> brexit means brexit is a mayism
> win the future is a starmerism, a phrase which sounds like a great promise but is vacuous and devoid of meaning



It doesn't sound like a promise at all to me. It sounds like "vote Labour so that Labour can win.... for reasons".


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 24, 2021)

Knotted said:


> It doesn't sound like a promise at all to me. It sounds like "vote Labour so that Labour can win.... for reasons".


I don't see a labour future being much better than a Tory present


----------



## steveseagull (Aug 24, 2021)

Surprise. He is going another yet another Jew


----------



## hitmouse (Aug 24, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> do they?


Starmer definitely did his best to lock up the youth vote back when he was DPP, but he's been out of that job for a fair few years now.

Anyway, they also seem to be going after the BFAWU, which will definitely help solve their funding crisis:





						BFAWU to recall Conference – Bakers, Food and Allied Workers Union (BFAWU)
					






					www.bfawu.org
				




This is such an odd memory I almost feel like I dreamt it, but I swear I once met Ian Hodson and he gave me a packet of biscuits, baked by union labour of course. Fox's, iirc. I don't think that's why they're kicking him out, though.


----------



## 8ball (Aug 25, 2021)

PR1Berske said:


> This is a truth often forgotten. In our digital age, where so many younger people are encouraged to make a go at starting their own YT/Tiktok/etc account to make money, and to be individual businesses in a modern day equivalent of Thatcher's start-up economy, the old world is antique. If you're relatively young, got a mortgage, doing okay for yourself, you're not voting Labour.



I think a lot of ‘da yoot’ have already cottoned onto the “corporation of you” personal branding self-facilitating media node thing as being a con job.


----------



## elbows (Aug 26, 2021)

8ball said:


> I think a lot of ‘da yoot’ have already cottoned onto the “corporation of you” personal branding self-facilitating media node thing as being a con job.


----------



## gosub (Aug 26, 2021)

maomao said:


> No it's not. It's shit but it's not meaningless and 'win in the future' (when? 300 years from now?) would be even shitter. The future cannot be literally 'won' but if the only meaningful sentences were ones that were capable of being literally true then almost no literature or art would exist.


Win in future  might have worked but if Labour want to tie themselves to wtf that down to them


----------



## teqniq (Aug 27, 2021)

Hahaha possible spoiler alert:









						Headache for Starmer as Jeremy Corbyn billed to speak at Brighton festival
					

The World Transformed event takes place alongside Labour’s crucial annual conference




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## ska invita (Aug 27, 2021)

teqniq said:


> Hahaha possible spoiler alert:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Corbyn is speaking at World Transformed, not conference. Nonstory really - zero headaches


----------



## hitmouse (Aug 27, 2021)

Idk about anyone else, but I feel like the BFAWU thing is maybe a bit more of an important story, for the symbolism as much as anything else:





						BFAWU to recall Conference – Bakers, Food and Allied Workers Union (BFAWU)
					






					www.bfawu.org
				




I mean, obviously union leaders are not the same thing as the workers they represent, but even so, for Labour/Starmer to be picking a fight with the union that represents Greggs workers and is doing more than anyone else to organise at McDonalds and Wetherspoons... well, it's an interesting way to reconnect with working-class voters.


----------



## tim (Aug 31, 2021)

Riklet said:


> He wants Geronimo dead...
> 
> Not that I actually care. But it's just a measure of how stupid and lacking in political skill Sir Keir really is. Total dumbo.
> 
> View attachment 283462




He seems to have got his way. He'll no doubt go for a pint,accompanied by  some photographers, to celebrate. He's also probably got first dibs on that cute little head which he'll have mounted and  given pride of place on the wall in his Westminster office.


----------



## Brainaddict (Aug 31, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Idk about anyone else, but I feel like the BFAWU thing is maybe a bit more of an important story, for the symbolism as much as anything else:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


But he's going for the vote in famously union-hating northern towns remember, not the union-loving metropolitan elite vote. He is a cleverer person than you or I, that's why you struggle to understand his strategy.

(I do understand his strategy I think: get the Murdoch press on side. Nothing less, definitely nothing more)


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Aug 31, 2021)

as part of the 'win the future' agenda, the party machine seems to be trying to sit on 'young labour'



(needless to say i'm not directly involved...)


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 31, 2021)

I see that despite his busy schedule of alpaca-murdering, Ser Keith has found time to ban the Palestine Solidarity Campaign from Labour's conference.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Aug 31, 2021)

how about protesters dressed up as alpacas outside party conference?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 31, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> I see that despite his busy schedule of alpaca-murdering, Ser Keith has found time to ban the Palestine Solidarity Campaign from Labour's conference.


he's never liked a day in which he didn't ban something


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 31, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> how about protesters dressed up as alpacas outside party conference?


careful or they'll call the knackers


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 31, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> how about protesters dressed up as alpacas outside party conference?



They'd be taking their lives in their hands given Keith's zero tolerance alpaca policy. Better if they dress up as government corruption, then they could slip by completely unnoticed.


----------



## ska invita (Aug 31, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> I see that despite his busy schedule of alpaca-murdering, Ser Keith has found time to ban the Palestine Solidarity Campaign from Labour's conference.


Link please?


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Aug 31, 2021)

or maybe the MRLP need to stand a candidate called Al Packer against sir kieth at the next election?


----------



## glitch hiker (Aug 31, 2021)

But can we win Bully's star prize?

_iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiin _twelve: a luxury speedboat!


----------



## hitmouse (Aug 31, 2021)




----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 31, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Link please?



This from the chair of young Labour:


----------



## RileyOBlimey (Aug 31, 2021)

Rodney’s employment of the ex-Israeli intelligence officer in his office is going well I see.


----------



## Shechemite (Sep 1, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> I see that despite his busy schedule of alpaca-murdering, Ser Keith has found time to ban the Palestine Solidarity Campaign from Labour's conference.



not according to the psc









						Starmer leadership 'stonewalling' Young Labour, chair says – and 'told it it would ban Palestine Solidarity speakers and Jeremy Corbyn from 'conference day'
					






					morningstaronline.co.uk


----------



## steveseagull (Sep 1, 2021)

Seems the entire establishment are launching an unhinged attack on the left today

Oliver Kamm has accused Young Labour of wanting a second holocaust



And the Board of Deputies have launched an unhinged attack on Mark Drakeford



Something tells me Keith and his thugs are having a bit of a conference panic.


----------



## a_chap (Sep 1, 2021)

steveseagull said:


> Oliver Kamm has accused Young Labour of wanting a second holocaust




That'll be these tweets, then.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Sep 1, 2021)




----------



## belboid (Sep 1, 2021)

steveseagull said:


> And the Board of Deputies have launched an unhinged attack on Mark Drakeford



That'd be his being due to appear at The World Transformed.  Shocking.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 1, 2021)

Spin the future


----------



## TopCat (Sep 1, 2021)

Labour staff are threatening to strike now.


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 1, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Labour staff are threatening to strike now.


Is this about the latest stuff, or about the job cuts?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Sep 1, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Is this about the latest stuff, or about the job cuts?



Job cuts. 75% of staff balloted voted to strike.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Sep 1, 2021)

a_chap said:


> That'll be these tweets, then.
> 
> View attachment 286175



Amongst other issues, this is the most blatant misuse of 'QED' I've seen in a while.


----------



## Knotted (Sep 1, 2021)

Oliver Kamm is always completely bonkers tbf.


----------



## steveseagull (Sep 1, 2021)

Keith has banned the PSG from conference which is now a bit awkward due to this picture surfacing.


----------



## two sheds (Sep 1, 2021)

Needs to be expelled tbf.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Sep 1, 2021)

does that mean he will have to turf himself out of the party?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Sep 1, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> does that mean he will have to turf himself out of the party?



No because he's only staying in post for as long as it takes to complete the purges. He cannot therefore purge himself because, if he did, he then wouldn't be able to. These are the kinds of subtleties only a forensic mind like that of Ser Keith can comprehend.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 2, 2021)

Kinnock giving advice to Kier. Keir Starmer urged to create ‘political cabinet’ with other UK Labour leaders


----------



## brogdale (Sep 4, 2021)

Careful now.


----------



## Riklet (Sep 4, 2021)

Little bit communism that.

Think of the centrist dads etc.


----------



## BillRiver (Sep 4, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Link please?



PSC have apparently now been un-banned:

UK Labour Party apologises for 'conference ban' on pro-Palestine group


----------



## ska invita (Sep 5, 2021)

BillRiver said:


> PSC have apparently now been un-banned:
> 
> UK Labour Party apologises for 'conference ban' on pro-Palestine group


Quite interesting reading that, especially the bit about disinvestment. Labours antisemitism position is untenable and it's just a matter of time till it blows up again...in their face at conference I hope


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 7, 2021)

We might  be better off if his sister was the leader, she could say at the hustings 'My brother is the leader of the Labour Party so I have first hand experience of that position


----------



## Shechemite (Sep 8, 2021)

To be fair


----------



## Gramsci (Sep 10, 2021)

On Palestine. Here is the present leadership line. In summary do nothing and imply those who give support to Palestinians stoke up hate.

So in practise a Starmer government would never contemplate stopping arms sales to State of Israel. But would send strongly worded letter to them if needed. Which of course they would take on board. Its a policy of letting Israeli governments and settlers get on with what they want to do.

Frankly crap Imo.









						Lisa Nandy sets out views on Israel-Palestine during Manchester event – LabourList
					

Lisa Nandy set out her views on the Israel-Palestine conflict during an 'in conversation with event' held by the Jewish Representative Council of Manchester and…




					labourlist.org
				




Read today ex advisor to Blair saying one mistake in the Afghan conflict was not to talk to Taliban. He said example of Ireland was that until IRA was included in talks no peace process could gain traction.

So Lisa Nandy just saying Hamas are proscribed terrorist organisation doesn't cut it.



Maybe Lisa Nandy should read this.









						The lesson we failed to learn from 9/11: peace is impossible if we don’t talk to our enemies | Jonathan Powell
					

We should have engaged with the Taliban 20 years ago, but we thought the winner takes all, says Tony Blair’s former chief of staff, Jonathan Powell




					www.theguardian.com
				




Downside of war on terror was that it meant that numerous groups were labelled as terrorist and so should not be talked to. This didn't help to solve conflicts.

Powell article should be required reading.

Along with this.









						‘Blacklisting’ terrorist groups: the post-9/11 strategy that only serves to prolong wars | Sophie Haspeslagh
					

The blunt-edged, security-oriented approach allows little space to tackle the root causes of violence and find resolution, says academic Sophie Haspeslagh




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## gosub (Sep 11, 2021)

Riklet said:


> Little bit communism that.
> 
> Think of the centrist dads etc.


its not though.  Had this row in the pub.

It not the poorest that end paying for it.  Its the poorest that end up receiving it.  
Arguing over who pays the bill secondary.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 11, 2021)

gosub said:


> its not though.  Had this row in the pub.
> 
> It not the poorest that end paying for it.  Its the poorest that end up receiving it.
> Arguing over who pays the bill secondary.


Not really.
If the proposal really does include a lifetime cap of £86k, the major beneficiaries of the scheme would be the wealthy who's longevity in care requires state support over and above the £86k, thus protecting the bulk of their estate.


----------



## gosub (Sep 11, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Not really.
> If the proposal really does include a lifetime cap of £86k, the major beneficiaries of the scheme would be the wealthy who's longevity in care requires state support over and above the £86k, thus protecting the bulk of their estate.


Statistically unlikely.  the 85k limit is on the medical aspect - you might ask yourself rightly what happened to cradle to the grave , but medical side is unlikely to reach 85k,.  Doesn't cover the accommodation side of things at all, they've left scope for the people farmers to carry on as they have been.  Care home owners can can continue with their game of monopoly....

This money is going into actual social care side of things, you know the actual care side of it provided by people whom would economically better off switching to stacking shelves down the local supermarket.


The sector is fucked, if you've had to have dealings with it you'd know it.  Really should be discussion on how to reform it to make it work rather than the sloped shoulders of how its someone else's responsibility to pay for sorting it.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 11, 2021)

Starmer working well for the LDs?


----------



## brogdale (Sep 11, 2021)

Maybe the bulk of the 18% (and growing) is for Rashford?


----------



## brogdale (Sep 13, 2021)

Meanwhile...losing team "_Nebulous" _lick their wounds and decide who's to blame...


----------



## MickiQ (Sep 13, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Maybe the bulk of the 18% (and growing) is for Rashford?


He'll be the switch to other (probably more of it than LD's)  the 18% are going to be the "A Plague On All Your Houses" vote


----------



## gosub (Sep 13, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Maybe the bulk of the 18% (and growing) is for Rashford?


----------



## TopCat (Sep 14, 2021)

I trusted Keir Starmer – until I saw how he handled Jeremy Corbyn’s suspension | Len McCluskey
					

If the Labour leader continues on the course he is presently charting, I fear for the party’s chances at the next election, says former Unite general secretary Len McCluskey




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## ska invita (Sep 14, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I trusted Keir Starmer – until I saw how he handled Jeremy Corbyn’s suspension | Len McCluskey
> 
> 
> If the Labour leader continues on the course he is presently charting, I fear for the party’s chances at the next election, says former Unite general secretary Len McCluskey
> ...


One bit in that it says "Labour" (someone at Labour) says there is no legal case being brought by Corbyn against the party, despite Len saying the opposite. I have a vague memory of Corbyn himself say he would challenge it through law. I would love to know what cases are being brought fighting back against the Purge. Its coming up to a year now since Corbyn got booted out


----------



## teqniq (Sep 16, 2021)

Just   









						Labour “nothing to say on racial justice”
					

Labour’s most senior black politician quit after falling out with Keir Starmer over race equality...




					www.voice-online.co.uk


----------



## oryx (Sep 16, 2021)

teqniq said:


> Just
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Interesting, and concerning.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 16, 2021)

tbf to Starmer, he has nothing to say on anything else, either...there is a consistency.


----------



## killer b (Sep 16, 2021)

ska invita said:


> One bit in that it says "Labour" (someone at Labour) says there is no legal case being brought by Corbyn against the party, despite Len saying the opposite. I have a vague memory of Corbyn himself say he would challenge it through law. I would love to know what cases are being brought fighting back against the Purge. Its coming up to a year now since Corbyn got booted out


I imagine what happened was Corbyn consulted a lawyer, and discovered that he doesn't have a case, so there won't be one.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 16, 2021)

teqniq said:


> Just
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for posting that. I only had read about it in the Guardian. FASCINATING difference between the two pieces









						Labour’s shadow equalities secretary quits as does shadow women’s minister
					

Marsha de Cordova departs to focus on her marginal constituency of Battersea




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## steveseagull (Sep 16, 2021)

He has gone in hard on the environmentalists now, which I image is quite a high percentage of people who would vote for him..  There cannot be many people he has not pissed off now


----------



## RileyOBlimey (Sep 16, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Meanwhile...losing team "_Nebulous" _lick their wounds and decide who's to blame...
> 
> View attachment 288135



That looks a lot like they’re sitting outside the Corbyn cafe.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 17, 2021)

Starmerism still going down a storm in redwallland; this time Middlesbrough.
Coming third in a two-horse race is some achievement.


----------



## killer b (Sep 17, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Starmerism still going down a storm in redwallland; this time Middlesbrough.
> Coming third in a two-horse race is some achievement.



google suggests while the previous councillor had been elected as Labour, she's sat as part of Middlesborough Independent Group since last year, and the by-election was called after her death from cancer. The new councillor was backed by the Middlesborough Independents. The seat is held by the independents rather than lost by Labour.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 17, 2021)

killer b said:


> google suggests while the previous councillor had been elected as Labour, she's sat as part of Middlesborough Independent Group since last year, and the by-election was called after her death from cancer. The new councillor was backed by the Middlesborough Independents. The seat is held by the independents rather than lost by Labour.


Very useful info that casts the result is a slightly less bleak light for Starmer, but only slightly.

e2a: from >50% to <22% for the LP badged candidate doesn't look too good.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 17, 2021)

Again, I don't know that electoral geography of Sheffield well, but this result (also from last night) looks like the LP got home by the skin of their teeth.


----------



## Chz (Sep 17, 2021)

That's more the Jared O'Mara effect than anyone caring what KS has to say, imo.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 17, 2021)

Chz said:


> That's more the Jared O'Mara effect than anyone caring what KS has to say, imo.


OK, don't know enough to dispute that, but that might also be a convenient cover for trends that are emerging more commonly?


----------



## killer b (Sep 17, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Very useful info that casts the result is a slightly less bleak light for Starmer, but only slightly.
> 
> e2a: from >50% to <22% for the LP badged candidate doesn't look too good.


every time you post these kinds of council by election results with huge drops for Labour, there's a local issue that explains it beyond _keir starmer is uniquely awful. _Council seats often switch to independent or to other parties  with minimal input from the national parties

Keir Starmer is a terrible leader and I doubt it's helping, but posting these raw % figures as if they say anything at all is just noise really. 

here's some more results from this week:

Labour gaining votes in South Tyneside!



They must love Kier Starmer in North East Derbyshire!


----------



## brogdale (Sep 17, 2021)

killer b said:


> every time you post these kinds of council by election results with huge drops for Labour, there's a local issue that explains it beyond _keir starmer is uniquely awful. _Council seats often switch to independent or to other parties  with minimal input from the national parties
> 
> Keir Starmer is a terrible leader and I doubt it's helping, but posting these raw % figures as if they say anything at all is just noise really.
> 
> ...



Yes, that's a fair point; obviously small turnouts at ward level are only ever of limited value in discerning the bigger picture, but they can give clues about the geography of support and they do represent real voters actually bothering to put a cross in the ballot paper box....so I think I will continue to post any that catch my eye.

On the more macro scale, I see that Britain Elects (NS) have today published their latest modelling for Westminster outcome based on tracker polling etc.


----------



## killer b (Sep 17, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Yes, that's a fair point; obviously small turnouts at ward level are only ever of limited value in discerning the bigger picture, but they can give clues about the geography of support and they do represent real voters actually bothering to put a cross in the ballot paper box....so I think I will continue to post any that catch my eye.


But any 'clues' you're gleaning from a britain elects tweet could be totally false and the result of local events or personalities - surely it's best to quickly check if there's anything obvious before adding it to the 'doesn't look good for starmer!' pile? If nothing else you'd avoid me picking you up on it every time.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 17, 2021)

killer b said:


> But any 'clues' you're gleaning from a britain elects tweet could be totally false and the result of local events or personalities - surely it's best to quickly check if there's anything obvious before adding it to the 'doesn't look good for starmer!' pile? If nothing else you'd avoid me picking you up on it every time.


Carry on killer b


----------



## steveseagull (Sep 17, 2021)

Less than an hour after the NEC were assured nothing like the Jess Barnard fiasco would happen again, the unhinged wing of the Labour Party have tried to put an MP under investigation, helpfully telling her that she should keep her mouth shut and talk to the Samaritans if she needed to.

Unite's lawyers got involved and it was rescinded and fobbed off as another 'admin error'.

Just imagine the Labour hard right running the country....


----------



## steveseagull (Sep 17, 2021)




----------



## steveseagull (Sep 17, 2021)

Incoming


----------



## belboid (Sep 17, 2021)

Chz said:


> That's more the Jared O'Mara effect than anyone caring what KS has to say, imo.


Omara was in a completely different part of the city, he is meaningless.  This ward is adjacent to mine.  

it’s an absurdly low turn out in a safe Labour seat.  The Tory vote collapsed and went straight to the libs.  Labour have just gone into an alliance with the greens so the liberals, long the only other party plausible if you want to go ‘fuck the council’ got those votes.  It’s not a great result for Labour, for sure. It probably does reflect a lack of enthusiasm for Starmers party.  

there was one election the same night when a seat held by the tories only returned 4% of the votes for said party.


----------



## oryx (Sep 17, 2021)

steveseagull said:


> Incoming



The conference should be, ahem, _interesting_.


----------



## redsquirrel (Sep 18, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Yes, that's a fair point; obviously small turnouts at ward level are only ever of limited value in discerning the bigger picture, but they can give clues about the geography of support and they do represent real voters actually bothering to put a cross in the ballot paper box....so I think I will continue to post any that catch my eye.
> 
> On the more macro scale, I see that Britain Elects (NS) have today published their latest modelling for Westminster outcome based on tracker polling etc.


Sorry brogdale but KB is right. 

The mis-use of council by-election results was crap when used against Corbyn, it is crap when used against Starmer. 
These are contest that the vast majority of people simply don't care about. Council results are not really a good predictor for Westminster when you have the full council elections, trying to use by-elections like these is building on sand.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 18, 2021)

redsquirrel said:


> Sorry brogdale but KB is right.
> 
> The mis-use of council by-election results was crap when used against Corbyn, it is crap when used against Starmer.
> These are contest that the vast majority of people simply don't care about. Council results are not really a good predictor for Westminster when you have the full council elections, trying to use by-elections like these is building on sand.


That's fine and I'm not that fussed about the issue tbh...not a biggie either way.
That said, I'm aware of and happy to discuss the psephological value of council by-election results, but I'm really not bothered about whether or not they've been used as a weapon by opponents of various factions.
One thing I do remember from my distant days organising campaigning within a CLP was that by-elections were usually taken pretty seriously and, although obviously prone to distortion by hyper-local factors, were also something of a barometer of the health, size, organisation and motivation of the CLP involved as well as the base national sentiment. Seeing >30% taken off a candidate (election on election) would be taken seriously by region and they do take note of by-elections.
Anyway...onward and upward...if folks don't think they're of any use, that's also fine.


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 20, 2021)

Dan Jarvis is not going to contest the Mayoral elections in South Yorkshire next year. Be interesting to see if he has any wider ambition.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 21, 2021)

So, ditching Miliband’s OMOV and back to the 3thirds electoral college, then?

Apparently before the next NEC...more of the ruthless right.


----------



## andysays (Sep 21, 2021)

brogdale said:


> So, ditching Miliband’s OMOV and back to the 3thirds electoral college, then?
> 
> Apparently before the next NEC...more of the ruthless right.


Looks like it
Starmer warned Labour leadership rule changes risk 'civil war'​


> Labour leader Sir Keir Starmer will re-open a bitter internal dispute just days ahead of his party's conference. In a risky move, he'll try to convince trade unions to back a plan to scrap the leadership rules which enabled predecessor Jeremy Corbyn to get elected.





> Currently grassroots members elect the leader - a system introduced by Ed Miliband.But Sir Keir wants to return to an "electoral college", which   would ordinary Labour Party members would only account for a third of the votes in a future leadership contest


----------



## magneze (Sep 21, 2021)

Just . How is that ever going to be passed?


----------



## brogdale (Sep 21, 2021)

magneze said:


> Just . How is that ever going to be passed?


There can be no socialism in the democratic socialist party.


----------



## andysays (Sep 21, 2021)

brogdale said:


> There can be no socialism in the democratic socialist party.


Not much democracy either, if Starmer gets his way...


----------



## belboid (Sep 21, 2021)

magneze said:


> Just . How is that ever going to be passed?


by finding a way to bribe Unison, GMB _and _USDAW leaderships to nod it through.  No chance otherwise and they'll need all three.


----------



## teqniq (Sep 21, 2021)

My estimation of Starmer is moving from 'fucking useless' to 'scum' - along with the people around him as well.


----------



## magneze (Sep 21, 2021)

"We spend too much time talking to ourselves"

Yes, why is that Keith? Why do you think? Muppet.


----------



## steveseagull (Sep 21, 2021)

.


----------



## steveseagull (Sep 21, 2021)

Should someone tell Keith he is building the gallows for his own execution? The guy is an absolute idiot.


----------



## steveseagull (Sep 21, 2021)

Keith is going in proper hard on the Jews now


----------



## Shechemite (Sep 21, 2021)

First they came for the wrong sort of Jews


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Sep 21, 2021)

steveseagull said:


> Should someone tell Keith he is building the gallows for his own execution? The guy is an absolute idiot.



depends really what he's there for.

destroy the party and get a peerage from that twat johnson?  plan on course...


----------



## TopCat (Sep 21, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> depends really what he's there for.
> 
> destroy the party and get a peerage from that twat johnson?  plan on course...


The kinnock strategy.


----------



## Gramsci (Sep 21, 2021)

steveseagull said:


> Keith is going in proper hard on the Jews now




This is worth reading as viewpoint of JVL.









						Beyond a fringe: JVL in Jewish Experience and Tradition
					

In this article written especially for us, JVL support officer Murray Glickman reflects on the Jewish experience of diaspora, oppression…




					www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org.uk
				




I've met a few of them as I'm in Lambeth. Some are supporters of local PSC.

The article goes into tradition that goes back to Bundism rather than Zionism.



> it is also worth noting that the vast majority of Jews living in Britain today are descendants of this immigration wave. Jewish socialists and trade unionists took their ideas — including their Bundist ideas — with them wherever they went (see, for example, the case of Clara Lemlich in the US). Their settlement in Britain coincided with the emergence of our Labour Party and trade unions as a major political force, a development to which these immigrants and their children made a significant contribution.



So far from Jews from this political background being non mainstream those who look to Bund as inspiration are historically mainstream in Labour movement. Even if Starmer rejects this.


----------



## steveseagull (Sep 21, 2021)




----------



## Jeff Robinson (Sep 22, 2021)

brogdale said:


> There can be no socialism in the democratic socialist party.



Or democracy.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 22, 2021)

The parties are shit too


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Sep 22, 2021)

Democratic Revisionist Socialist Starmer Party Clique


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Sep 22, 2021)

New video from Loach: "(the revisionist Starmer Clique) represent the interests of the ruling class and in fact they are now the biggest obstacle to change, they are a bigger obstacle than the Tory party"


----------



## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Sep 22, 2021)

magneze said:


> Just . How is that ever going to be passed?


This is what I am wondering? He needs the big unions on his side right? Why would they vote for this?


----------



## steveseagull (Sep 22, 2021)

How are they this bad?  Keith's 14,000 word missive has been leaked and there has allegedly been threats issued from Team Keith.


----------



## steveseagull (Sep 22, 2021)

Apparently his missive is 12,300 words, not 14,000. Lying bastard.


----------



## two sheds (Sep 22, 2021)

So what was the threat? "I'll fucking 'av you  "?


----------



## steveseagull (Sep 22, 2021)

Mirror are reporting it is 11,500 words.  It gets grimmer.

He has managed to release his vision whilst the entire media are focussing on a war on the left which he did not have to chuck petrol on, days before conference.

What a lad.


----------



## steveseagull (Sep 22, 2021)

two sheds said:


> So what was the threat? "I'll fucking 'av you  "?


It will be something to do with briefcases


----------



## ruffneck23 (Sep 22, 2021)

hmm and some thought uncle jezza was bad


----------



## magneze (Sep 22, 2021)

11k words. Does he say anything though?


----------



## strung out (Sep 22, 2021)

An extract from his essay. Bit weird tbh.


----------



## ruffneck23 (Sep 22, 2021)

strung out said:


> An extract from his essay. Bit weird tbh.
> 
> View attachment 289750


 Going for the populists vote wont help him, how can someone be so apparently intelligent be so fucking dense?


----------



## Raheem (Sep 22, 2021)

strung out said:


> An extract from his essay. Bit weird tbh.
> 
> View attachment 289750


This has to be a hoax.


----------



## strung out (Sep 22, 2021)

It gets weirder


----------



## magneze (Sep 22, 2021)

Sounds a bit "boat happy"...


----------



## two sheds (Sep 22, 2021)

(a) a hoax? 
(b) quoting a Johnson speech instead?


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Sep 22, 2021)

Gary Barlow


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Sep 22, 2021)

Do I win a prize or something?


----------



## Raheem (Sep 22, 2021)

Another Keith, maybe? Chegwin? Moon? Flint?


----------



## a_chap (Sep 22, 2021)

Another extract has been leaked.


----------



## killer b (Sep 22, 2021)

strung out said:


> An extract from his essay. Bit weird tbh.
> 
> View attachment 289750


A vision we can all get behind.


----------



## Sue (Sep 22, 2021)

strung out said:


> It gets weirder
> 
> View attachment 289759
> 
> View attachment 289760


It's obviously his 'what I did in the holidays' essay. Traditional at this time of year. 🤷‍♀️


----------



## TopCat (Sep 23, 2021)

I like him less after reading that shit.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 23, 2021)

Now available to read in full (which I haven’t bothered to do yet). My initial analysis is that it’s not very good even on the most narrow of terms. I was hoping to see Starmer steal the best bits of Biden’s infrastructure plan and commit to a limited return of social democracy recognising its inevitability in the post covid world. Doesn’t appear he’s even managed to get that far. Very hard to understand what this approach is designed to do or to appeal to (again on their terms and not ‘ours’):



			https://fabians.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/The-Road-Ahead-FINAL_WEB-fri.pdf


----------



## SpookyFrank (Sep 23, 2021)

It's quite a lot of nothing. Kids deserve an education, although one focussed on future employability not wellbeing or emotional intelligence or anything like that. Hospitals are good, but the tories who are fucking them to death aren't bad. Yawn.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 23, 2021)

Guardians front page summary


----------



## Knotted (Sep 23, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> It's quite a lot of nothing. Kids deserve an education, although one focussed on future employability not wellbeing or emotional intelligence or anything like that. Hospitals are good, but the tories who are fucking them to death aren't bad. Yawn.



I don't think you're actually supposed to read it. It's dwarf bread isn't it.



> The dwarf bread was brought out for inspection. But it was miraculous, the dwarf bread. *No one ever went hungry when they had some dwarf bread to avoid*. You only had to look at it for a moment, and instantly you could think of dozens of things you'd rather eat.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 23, 2021)

very David Cameron...theres even some Big Society guff in there


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 23, 2021)

over there is the SNP, doing the bad nationalism. Over here is us doing the good patriotism. Work work work, families.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Sep 23, 2021)

DotCommunist said:


> Work work work, families.



I'm waiting on starting a family until I somehow don't have to work every hour god sends just to pay some other cunt's mortgage. What's Keith gonna do about that hmm?


----------



## Brainaddict (Sep 23, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Guardians front page summary
> View attachment 289786


Yeah, I don't think I need to read any more to know that it's reheated Blairism. Reheated after twenty years in the fridge, where not only has it gone more than a bit 'off', but like prawn cocktail has fallen considerably out of fashion.

I'm not very invested in the Labour Party but even I feel it's a bit of a shame that Starmer hasn't even made the concessions to the left that Biden has decided are strategically necessary to keep young voters on board. I think that failure dooms us to more Tory governments - there's little appeal in the centre ground in times like these.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Sep 23, 2021)

With this leadership change Starmer's basically just making a noose for his own neck isn't he? He's making it easier for the right to kick him out without any risk of a left candidate fucking up the process of anointing his successor. 

I genuinely think he's so dim that this won't have occurred to him.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 23, 2021)

...imagine if he wins the next election  
open goal here surely


----------



## magneze (Sep 23, 2021)

Has he got any policies yet? By the time he does, will anyone be listening?


----------



## two sheds (Sep 23, 2021)

I liked the article's phrasing: "decisive course .... values of hard work, contributing to society ... " 

and who could object to the values of hard work and contributing to society? Wasters all, obviously.

"Corbyn's radical spending promises" 

not taking essential resources into public ownership but just spending promises. 

No bias there


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Sep 23, 2021)

magneze said:


> Has he got any policies yet? By the time he does, will anyone be listening?



You can find them all in here: 1997  Labour Party Manifesto -


----------



## maomao (Sep 23, 2021)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> You can find them all in here: 1997  Labour Party Manifesto -


I think it's this one actually:

HuffPost UK: News and Opinion › ...
Conservative Manifesto 2017 PDF In Full - HuffPost UK


----------



## Brainaddict (Sep 23, 2021)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> You can find them all in here: 1997  Labour Party Manifesto -


Though he will doubtless drop the promise they (catastrophically for themselves I think) failed to keep first time round:

"We are committed to a referendum on the voting system for the House of Commons. An independent commission on voting systems will be appointed early to recommend a proportional alternative to the first-past-the-post system."


----------



## andysays (Sep 23, 2021)

ska invita said:


> ...imagine if he wins the next election
> open goal here surely


You must have a far more active imagination than me, ska.


----------



## two sheds (Sep 23, 2021)

"Decisive course to the centre ground..." 

Determined path to nothing in particular ...


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 23, 2021)

two sheds said:


> "Decisive course to the centre ground..."
> 
> Determined path to nothing in particular ...


----------



## two sheds (Sep 23, 2021)

Roadmap to nowhere  

Even using roadmap is a bit puffy - a roadmap you'd expect the different stages and planned timings.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 23, 2021)

It’s just toryism with a lack of obvious bigotry.


----------



## Chilli.s (Sep 23, 2021)

TopCat said:


> It’s just toryism with a lack of obvious bigotry.


That's what it looks like to me too. kieth should fuck off and start his own party


----------



## ruffneck23 (Sep 23, 2021)

This is what you get when a 'Sir' leads the labour party.


----------



## A380 (Sep 23, 2021)

Labour increasingly confident that they can finally defeat Labour
					

There is growing confidence from within the Labour Party that they could finally defeat the Labour Party.




					newsthump.com


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Sep 23, 2021)

Chilli.s said:


> kieth should fuck off and start his own party



or fuck off and join the tories

or just fuck off


----------



## strung out (Sep 23, 2021)

I fucking love Rickie Lambert


----------



## Shechemite (Sep 23, 2021)

Who’s rickie lambert?


----------



## strung out (Sep 23, 2021)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Who’s rickie lambert?


Ex England striker.


----------



## magneze (Sep 23, 2021)

Even the Guardian is somewhere from lukewarm to scornful.

Feels like Starmer is a dead man walking.

Wes Streeting is trending, apparently having raised 100k for a tilt at the leadership.


----------



## domestos (Sep 23, 2021)

Sir Starmer, Fifth columnist now. Lord Walworth to be.


----------



## steveseagull (Sep 23, 2021)

magneze said:


> Even the Guardian is somewhere from lukewarm to scornful.
> 
> Feels like Starmer is a dead man walking.
> 
> Wes Streeting is trending, apparently having raised 100k for a tilt at the leadership.


----------



## maomao (Sep 23, 2021)

Even he realises he's got fuck all chance of ever being prime minister and has just gone into wrecking mode out of spite. Backstabbing oxygen thief cunt.


----------



## Lorca (Sep 23, 2021)

Fwiw, when I was out knocking ten million doors during the last election, I was repeatedly told 'I'll never vote labour again until they make Wes Streeting leader!'*





* This may not be entirely true.


----------



## killer b (Sep 23, 2021)

Wes Streeting taking a tilt at the leadership is just too silly to be real - it's surely someone's joke taken out of context?


----------



## Elpenor (Sep 23, 2021)

He is an ex NUS president, so will be used to the giddy heights of leadership. He’d have slightly less influence as Labour leader though.


----------



## teqniq (Sep 23, 2021)




----------



## RileyOBlimey (Sep 23, 2021)

TopCat said:


> It’s just toryism with a lack of obvious bigotry.



Well, supporting apartheid is pretty bigoted. Not just passively either.


----------



## Gramsci (Sep 23, 2021)

I was listening to the the Radio 4 news this morning and to my surprise ex Leader of Lambeth Council, Uber Blairite Steve Reed popped up. He got quite hard questioning about Starmer attempt to change rules on electing leader. He evaded all of that. Kept saying the Labour Party needs to stop looking inward. That Starmer had gone the length and breadth of the country talking to ordinary people.

So the line is going to be that this rule change on electing leader is only an issue for politicos. Its not of interest to the ordinary Labour voter.

I think what Starmer and those on the right of party like Steve Reed want is for the media not to go on about this. To  let them bring in rule changes to make sure membership never again vote in someone like Corbyn.

The subtext of his essay is that there are Labour Party members and in contrast hard working families.

Problem is as many point out the right of the party have nothing in way of vision to offer. It is as posters here have said reheated Blairism.

What does annoy me is that Corbyn gave people like Steve Reed posts.

I had thought that Starmer was genuine. That he would be more so called moderate but would have a few from left in his shadow cabinet. That he would keep Green New Deal.

I've been reading Paint Your Town Red on the Preston experiment. Brought in by Corbyn supporting wing of party. But something like Green New Deal the left and right of party could agree on.

My criticism of Starmer is that he has not done what he promised. There are policies that could unite that party.

Based around local issues. I really don't understand how he has travelled so quick from his leadership promises to unite party to having spokes people like Steve Reed from right of party sent to Radio news.


----------



## Raheem (Sep 24, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> I really don't understand how he has travelled so quick from his leadership promises to unite party to having spokes people like Steve Reed from right of party sent to Radio news.


You can get from Leeds to Newcastle really quickly if you were lying about being in Leeds and you were actually in Gateshead.


----------



## Gramsci (Sep 24, 2021)

Gave his essay a quick read. 

Few things:

He puts in all the info about why Tory governments have worsened inequality etc. Fair enough. Don't think many would disagree with that side to it.

He's got it in for the SNP. Makes a distinction between Nationalism ( bad and divisive) and Patriotism ( belief in the Union and tolerant). 

Myself if Scots want a referendum and leave that's up to them. That part of essay didn't do anything for me. He's trying to make out SNP are as bad as the Tories.

He goes on about the way in pandemic people help others in their community. That this shows better side of society that could be built on 

His answer is the Contribution society. Work hard , play by the rules and you will be supported by a Labour government. 

I thought that a lesson of pandemic was that people will cooperate for the common good. I saw it in Foodbank and in local Mutual aid group. Also my Labour council did help a lot on food distribution. 

My first read of his essay and he is saying some of the right things then is terrified of using the S word. It has to be Contribution society not Cooperative. Definitely no mention of Socialism. 

Contribution makes it sound transactional . When what I saw and I think he saw was people giving help to others freely. 

My experience of working in a very busy Foodbank in pandemic few days a week was that work could be completely different experience. Everyone got the work done in fairly egalitarian cooperative way 

I'd say his vision is limited.


----------



## steveseagull (Sep 24, 2021)

What an embarrassment this afternoon has been. He has destroyed his own authority before conference has begun.


----------



## elbows (Sep 24, 2021)

steveseagull said:


> What an embarrassment this afternoon has been. He has destroyed his own authority before conference has begun.



Are you referring to this by any chance?



> Keir Starmer endured a "car crash" meeting with union chiefs on Friday afternoon in which he failed to drum up support for changes to Labour party rules.











						Keir Starmer fails to win support for rule change in ‘car crash’ meeting with unions
					

Leader leader wants to scrap “one member, one vote” for leadership elections




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## elbows (Sep 24, 2021)

As I was walking down the street one day
I saw a house on fire
There was a man, shouting and screaming at an upper-storey window
To the crowd that was gathered there below
For he was sore afraid

Jump! You fucker, jump!
Jump into this here blanket what we are holding
And you will be all right
He jumped, hit the deck, broke his fucking neck
There was no blanket


----------



## Humberto (Sep 25, 2021)

Anyone hate the weird glottal stopping affectation they all adopt, the party leaders and their main henchbots. Going back decades.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 25, 2021)

Humberto said:


> Anyone hate the weird glottal stopping affectation they all adopt, the party leaders and their main henchbots. Going back decades.



That'll be the forked tongues


----------



## Humberto (Sep 25, 2021)

The accent most attuned to something or other?? It's power stance, pointing with your knuckle type stuff.


----------



## elbows (Sep 25, 2021)

Humberto said:


> Anyone hate the weird glottal stopping affectation they all adopt, the party leaders and their main henchbots. Going back decades.



I hadnt noticed it being that universal, but sometimes I expect Starmer to start telling us how a Camberwell carrot can utilise up to 12 skins.


----------



## killer b (Sep 25, 2021)

I keep reading in the guardian that Starmer's conference speech is 'keenly awaited', and wondering 'who by??'


----------



## steveseagull (Sep 25, 2021)

It's dead. So is his authority.


----------



## killer b (Sep 25, 2021)

Means this tweet can be read in a quite different way


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 25, 2021)

killer b said:


> I keep reading in the guardian that Starmer's conference speech is 'keenly awaited', and wondering 'who by??'


Insomniacs


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Sep 25, 2021)

In related news, iron paw salute to this mighty feline!


----------



## TopCat (Sep 25, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Insomniacs


I am that but care not much.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 25, 2021)

Jeff Robinson said:


> In related news, iron paw salute to this mighty feline!



What was she doing with a cat in her suitcase?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Sep 25, 2021)

steveseagull said:


> It's dead. So is his authority.




Honestly I thought he'd push on with it even with no chance of success, that's been his strategy with most things so far.

The blairites will have to have a rethink now. I suspect it'll be back to plan A, destroying the labour party rather than accept the prospect of a moderate social democrat ever running it again.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 25, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> What was she doing with a cat in her suitcase?



 #craftycatpissgate


----------



## TopCat (Sep 25, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> What was she doing with a cat in her suitcase?


It was her cat, sending her a message to fuck off and not come back. Poor Moggy.


----------



## Chilli.s (Sep 25, 2021)

or it was too late to go to the laundrette and needed an excuse for smellin bad at the big party


----------



## steveseagull (Sep 25, 2021)

Keith has found a new rake to step on


----------



## steveseagull (Sep 25, 2021)

Oh


----------



## ska invita (Sep 25, 2021)

steveseagull said:


> Keith has found a new rake to step on



well thats good news - leaves that door open a little longer
has the conference started yet? fingers crossed for signs of rebellion


----------



## Artaxerxes (Sep 25, 2021)

Ouch.


----------



## steveseagull (Sep 25, 2021)




----------



## killer b (Sep 25, 2021)

steveseagull said:


>



brilliant.


----------



## steveseagull (Sep 25, 2021)

Confirmation vote is about 20 mins. After a bit of uproar about vote rigging, Evans decided he wanted a card vote.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 25, 2021)

The disdain on the cunts face.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 25, 2021)

TopCat said:


> The disdain on the cunts face.


Right are ruthless, though...even the faintly embarrassing 59:41win is a win.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 25, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Right are ruthless, though...even the faintly embarrassing 59:41win is a win.


tell us more? what vote?


----------



## brogdale (Sep 25, 2021)

TopCat said:


> tell us more? what vote?


labour-general-secretary-david-evans-approved-by-conference-via-card-vote


----------



## steveseagull (Sep 25, 2021)

He was ratified as General Secretary.

He came within a 10% swing of losing it (it is usually waved through) despite mass suspending people who might vote against him.

Imagine these people in power if they have to rig their own conference elections


----------



## TopCat (Sep 25, 2021)

Labour conference: People assume Sir Keir Starmer is a posh bloke - top aide
					

Don't be fooled by the Labour leader's knighthood, his adviser tells an audience of Love Island fans.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## TopCat (Sep 25, 2021)

I should add some contextual comment. 

A gullible arse on the brink of being jettisoned.


----------



## steveseagull (Sep 25, 2021)

His predecessor has been addressing Young Labour this evening and it has now been confirmed that centrist piss boils at a significantly higher temperature than normal people's piss.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 25, 2021)

steveseagull said:


> His predecessor has been addressing Young Labour this evening and it has now been confirmed that centrist piss boils at a significantly higher temperature than normal people's piss.


Where is a good source of updates


----------



## steveseagull (Sep 25, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Where is a good source of updates


Lara


			https://twitter.com/lara_eleanor
		


Jess


			https://twitter.com/JessicaLBarnard
		


are probably the best sources for Young Labour stuff


----------



## steveseagull (Sep 25, 2021)

Labour apparently flagged Young Labour's gig as cancelled on the conference app (likely because JC was speaking)


----------



## TopCat (Sep 25, 2021)

steveseagull said:


> Lara
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/lara_eleanor
> ...


I did a double take. I thought that was Jess Phillips.


----------



## steveseagull (Sep 25, 2021)

Someone who has been trending on Twitter all evening: Jeremy Corbyn
Someone who has not been trending on Twitter all evening: Keith

Angela Rayner playing an absolute blinder and taking all the plaudits from the media types.
Keith locked in his fall out shelter trying to remember which factional war he is fighting.


----------



## steveseagull (Sep 25, 2021)




----------



## TopCat (Sep 25, 2021)

Yeah protect capital, tinker around the edges and indulge in a bit of rhetoric. 

It’s the vision, set out at last.


----------



## steveseagull (Sep 25, 2021)

Rayner right under the skin of the Tories with her 'scum' comments, Starmer, in his bunker. 



Everywhere he goes, Starmer is going to get asked if he agrees Tories are scum now, and he is either going to have to say they are scum or try and fudge it.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 26, 2021)

steveseagull said:


> Rayner right under the skin of the Tories with her 'scum' comments, Starmer, in his bunker.
> 
> 
> 
> Everywhere he goes, Starmer is going to get asked if he agrees Tories are scum now, and he is either going to have to say they are scum or try and fudge it.



He does not think the tories are scum. A bit illiberal perhaps some of them but hey.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 26, 2021)

In an excoriating article in the Observer, the former shadow chancellor John McDonnell says he can no longer play the loyal elder statesman.

He says Starmer “has abandoned the platform on which he was elected Labour leader, sidelined much of the broad team that got him elected and has reached for the Blairite playbook and resuscitated Blair’s old crew, of Peter Mandelson as his consigliere, combined with an appetite for factional purges that makes the Kinnock era look tame. The result is that we are witnessing something akin to the performance of a Blairite tribute band with the same old stunts and strategies being rolled out on schedule but with a great deal more venom.”


----------



## steveseagull (Sep 26, 2021)

From that article


Pic from that article, he is morphing into Paul Golding


----------



## TopCat (Sep 26, 2021)

steveseagull said:


> From that article
> 
> 
> Pic from that article, he is morphing into Paul Golding
> ...


A few more pies and pints and yes.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 26, 2021)

He really is a low rent Kinnock.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 26, 2021)

Sir Keir says schools should teach practical life skills such as pension planning and applying for a mortgage.


----------



## Zapp Brannigan (Sep 26, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Sir Keir says schools should teach practical life skills such as pension planning and applying for a mortgage.


Pension planning: work til you're dead.

Mortgage application: you can't demonstrate affordability for a 1000£/month mortgage, because of this 1300£/month rent.

Lesson ends.


----------



## steveseagull (Sep 26, 2021)

Rayner doubling down on calling Tories scum, which will piss Keith off no end


----------



## Kaka Tim (Sep 26, 2021)

Any byelections coming up for Keith  to lose? Can definitely see him being gone by next conference - hopefully taking all the Blairite undead with him.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 26, 2021)

Kaka Tim said:


> Any byelections coming up for Keith  to lose? Can definitely see him being gone by next conference - hopefully taking all the Blairite undead with him.



If Starmer does fuck off who replaces him? I’m assuming Burnham or Khan? What happens then?


----------



## Riklet (Sep 26, 2021)

I am secretly pleased to see Starmer fuck up the Labour partly beyond redemption.

Surely we can create something more powerful and progressive out of this mess.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 26, 2021)

Kaka Tim said:


> Any byelections coming up for Keith  to lose? Can definitely see him being gone by next conference - hopefully taking all the Blairite undead with him.


They will put up some other arse.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 26, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> If Starmer does fuck off who replaces him? I’m assuming Burnham or Khan? What happens then?


How? Neither are an MP.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 26, 2021)

Idly, who would be worse?


----------



## Sprocket. (Sep 26, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Idly, who would be worse?


Jeremy Corbyn, allegedly according to Kieth.


----------



## Carvaged (Sep 26, 2021)

HRH Sir Lord Dowager Keir Starmer Esq. says he would not call the Tories "scum"

He has not said what he would call them though.

Hmm...


----------



## Kaka Tim (Sep 26, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> If Starmer does fuck off who replaces him? I’m assuming Burnham or Khan? What happens then?



Raynor would seem to be the front runner. The "scum" remark probably sealed the membership vote.


----------



## Lorca (Sep 26, 2021)

Angela Rayner making her pitch maybe?


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Sep 26, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> If Starmer does fuck off who replaces him? I’m assuming Burnham or Khan? What happens then?





TopCat said:


> They will put up some other arse.



the blairites take bad polls / election results as showing that they have failed by not being right wing enough...


----------



## Carvaged (Sep 26, 2021)

Starmer's never giving up. As said, any bad performance will be spun as a demonstration that the party isn't right-wing enough.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Sep 26, 2021)

Kaka Tim said:


> Any byelections coming up for Keith  to lose? Can definitely see him being gone by next conference - hopefully taking all the Blairite undead with him.



He had one job, get the leadership election rules changed, and he fucked it. The right will now want him out sooner than later. Whether they can pull off the same 'unity candidate' ruse twice in a row though, and in a OMOV system, well interesting times ahead. But I still wouldn't buy any green bananas if I was Ser Keith.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Sep 26, 2021)




----------



## not-bono-ever (Sep 26, 2021)

Misfortune to have LBC in in the car earlier. Are people seriously not voting labour because of the woke agenda and starmers questioning this morning about the cervix. It’s as if the press are just being wankers.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Sep 26, 2021)

Lolz


----------



## Carvaged (Sep 26, 2021)

not-bono-ever said:


> It’s as if the press are just being wankers.



You mean it's as if _people_ are just wankers.

I agree.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 26, 2021)

not-bono-ever said:


> Misfortune to have LBC in in the car earlier. Are people seriously not voting labour because of the woke agenda and starmers questioning this morning about the cervix. It’s as if the press are just being wankers.


Have you ever been to the LBC before?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 26, 2021)

Kaka Tim said:


> Raynor would seem to be the front runner. The "scum" remark probably sealed the membership vote.


So, she wins. What then?


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Sep 26, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> So, she wins. What then?



the tories (as in the conservative party, their friends in the press, and the blairites in the labour party) start smear campaigns...


----------



## TopCat (Sep 26, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> So, she wins. What then?


Protect capital, tinker around the edges, indulge in fiery rhetoric.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Sep 26, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> So, she wins. What then?



Fuck knows. Depends on a lot of different factors. Hopefully it means the rightwing of the party no longer have control. The desire for radical change that corbyn tapped into has not gone away.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 26, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Protect capital, tinker around the edges, indulge in fiery rhetoric.



I presume that this approach by Rayner will make some Labour Party members angry and after a big row they’ll replace her as leader with someone else. What then?


----------



## Carvaged (Sep 26, 2021)

Kaka Tim said:


> Hopefully it means the rightwing of the party no longer have control.



Didn't happen when Corbyn was in power, I can't see why they'd be any more inclined to give control of party apparatus or bureaucracy up just because she's there?


----------



## TopCat (Sep 26, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I presume that this approach by Rayner will make some Labour Party members angry and after a big row they’ll replace her as leader with someone else. What then?


Rinse, repeat, lose election


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 26, 2021)

I’ve just watched Starmer on the Andrew Marr show. I have to say that it was, by a distance, the  worst interview I’ve ever seen by a leader of the Labour Party. I mean, I hated Kinnock and Blair but at least they were coherent. He’s genuinely- on any measure - fucking dreadful. Refused to commit Labour to renationalising utilities even thought it’s massively popular, had zero ideas on solving the HGV shortages bar importation of exploited labour, couldn’t even understand the point he was making about their strategy and campaign for the next GE, talked about facing the voters and then went on for ages about internal rule changes. A genuine car crash of an interview.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Sep 26, 2021)

Carvaged said:


> Didn't happen when Corbyn was in power, I can't see why they'd be any more inclined to give control of party apparatus or bureaucracy up just because she's there?



they didnt have control - thats why they went on a wrecking mission. Starmer's disastrous performances has undermined their position as "competent and sensible" . It may be they begrudgingly go down the "party unity" route.  Also various "left" polices - renationalisation, citizens wage, green economy, building council houses, wealth tax - are getting increasing traction post brexit/covid and with looming environmental disaster and neo-liberalism a busted flush.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Sep 26, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I’ve just watched Starmer on the Andrew Marr show. I have to say that it was, by a distance, the  worst interview I’ve ever seen by a leader of the Labour Party. I mean, I hated Kinnock and Blair but at least they were coherent. He’s genuinely- on any measure - fucking dreadful. Refused to commit Labour to renationalising utilities even thought it’s massively popular, had zero ideas on solving the HGV shortages bar importation of exploited labour, couldn’t even understand the point he was making about their strategy and campaign for the next GE, talked about facing the voters and then went on for ages about internal rule changes. A genuine car crash of an interview.



Not his first car crash either - his post hartlepool performance was pure david brent.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 26, 2021)

Carvaged said:


> Didn't happen when Corbyn was in power, I can't see why they'd be any more inclined to give control of party apparatus or bureaucracy up just because she's there?


Theres a historic fight over control and direction of the Labour Party. Whilst there's plenty of depressing precedent, that doesn't necessarily mean the future is set in stone.

Corbyn didn't try to gain total control... The opposite, he was a genuine unifier... Naively it turns out.

Im as cynical as anyone about the possibility of the LP being any kind of vehicle for meaningful change but theres a lot of crisis on the horizon, and crisis can lead to big shake ups of the usual order of things. There's not enough grass roots pressure right now, but that could change in a minute with the right crisis flashpoint coming along.

I've no strong opinion about Rayner, but there are always potential new chinks in the armour that come around with each new appointment.


----------



## Gramsci (Sep 26, 2021)

He's been criticised rightly for reneging on his pledge to re nationalise on the Andrew Marr show. This could be seen in his The Road Ahead essay.

Nationalisation of key industries isn't mentioned instead he says,

The first task in remaking the nation
will be resetting the relationship
between the government and business
to create an economy that works. That
will require a new, commonsense,
practical approach: one in which we
don’t treat the economy as a battle for
supremacy between public sector and
private sector, but a joint effort.

Page 22 The Road Ahead

Somewhere along the line from campaigning to become leader to the present day he dropped the more radical ideas that appealed to membership.

If he talked like this in his election to be leader campaign he wouldn't have been voted in.


I know its tedious read but the Road Ahead does show what he now thinks.

Ed Miliband isn't up to date with this and recently called for Nationalisation as part of putting in place Green New deal.









						The road ahead | Fabian Society
					

Fabian Society




					fabians.org.uk
				




John McDonnel saying its from New Labour is no exaggeration.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 26, 2021)

He also originally pledged to abolish student fees and universal credit...


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Sep 26, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> That will require a new, commonsense, practical approach



has he used the phrase 'third way' yet?


----------



## Gramsci (Sep 26, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> has he used the phrase 'third way' yet?



The phrase New Deal for business and working people is used.

There are some good things in the Road Ahead. Better working rights for example, more power given back to local Councils/ leaders, replace Universal Credit, taking aboard BLM issues.

New Labour/ Progressives have moved on and changed. For example whilst business is praised for innovation and enterprise I don't think complete adulation is something they do now. For example my Lambeth Council is bringing back services in house. A marked change from the Blairite Steve Reed time of making the Council an enabler not a provider. As being a provider fostered welfare dependency among other things.

The Progressives Britain/New Labour faction who've run Lambeth for years have changed in that regard.

A response I think to voters disillusionment with Blairite project.

I would have thought this could lead to common ground with left of party. But this isn't how the Progressives operate. Starmer once elected surrounded himself with these kind of people. Who are pursuing factional war against anyone who slightly differs from them. Its how Lambeth Council operate.

So New Labour mark two is different.


----------



## two sheds (Sep 26, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> has he used the phrase 'third way' yet?


Doesn't need to, he spells it out:


> one in which we don’t treat the economy as a battle for
> supremacy between public sector and private sector, but a joint effort.


People all over England are cheering and cracking open bottles - this is exactly what we've been wanting for all these years.


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 26, 2021)

Good to see that the Labour conference is still a place where you can hear from important voices like... the UK boss of Uber:





						Fabian Society at Labour Party Conference 2021 | Fabian Society
					

Fabian Society




					fabians.org.uk
				





Response from one of the unions organising Uber drivers here:


----------



## brogdale (Sep 26, 2021)

Holds a pint like a posh tory.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 26, 2021)

‘Done his duty’: Keir Starmer pleases supporters with rule changes
					

Analysis: Infighting rife as Labour leader takes on Corbynite left, but supporters say it puts party on a stronger footing




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 26, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> While I’m here, a while back somebody posted this at me. Several people liked it.  I didn’t respond because I had no idea what it meant.  At first I thought it was just random. But then it got likes.  Anyone know what the message was?


Perhaps Bob on twitter was actually trying to suggest that Danny looks like he could be next to Keir Starmer in a pub?


brogdale said:


> Holds a pint like a posh tory.
> 
> View attachment 290287


----------



## Gramsci (Sep 26, 2021)

Just been looking up Progress.

Got together with old right Labour First to set up Labour to Win when Starmer became leader.

Just to show how right wing they are their press release says this,



> “We greet Keir’s election with a huge sense of relief that what has been a lost decade in our party’s history is coming to an end. We must now all focus on ensuring Labour is once again seen as a party of government.”











						Progress and Labour First launch ‘Labour to Win’ umbrella organisation – LabourList
					

Progress and Labour First are set to jointly launch a new umbrella organisation called 'Labour to Win' as a response to Keir Starmer's call for…




					labourlist.org
				




Lost decade would include Ed Miliband as well as Corbyn. For those on so called Progressive wing of party the rot set in with Ed Miliband.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Sep 26, 2021)

I'm not going to, but my instinctive reaction to this Labour Party conference is to go and puke in a bucket. Hope this contribution helps.


----------



## Spandex (Sep 27, 2021)

_Working people of the UK unite! For too long have we suffered under the yoke of these scum! The time has come! Yes, stakeholders! The time is now! We must undertake a major review of existing tax reliefs! The current system punishes entrepreneurs and business investment! Vote for Labour and we shall freeze business rates and eventually replace them with a new system that will reward investment! This is what the people need! This is what the people demand!_

[Rapturous applause from conference]


----------



## teqniq (Sep 27, 2021)

There's nice:


----------



## Johnny Vodka (Sep 27, 2021)

teqniq said:


> There's nice:




What a piece of shit.  I've said it before; they are going to lose a lot of votes to the Greens.


----------



## maomao (Sep 27, 2021)

I was going to vote spunking cock at the next election but I'm worried it might be interpreted as a vote for the lama harmer.


----------



## Rimbaud (Sep 27, 2021)

maomao said:


> I was going to vote spunking cock at the next election but I'm worried it might be interpreted as a vote for the lama harmer.


Likewise I think I'm gonna vote Green next time purely because a high vote share for Green is the clearest message to Starmer and the right of the Party that their strategy of telling hundreds of thousands of enthusiastic new members to fuck off and go away isn't good politics.


----------



## Chilli.s (Sep 27, 2021)

maomao said:


> I was going to vote spunking cock at the next election but I'm worried it might be interpreted as a vote for the lama harmer.


I was gonna vote spunking cock but was too worried that the teller/counters might interpret that as a literal representation of a vote for BJ!

At the mo, a spunking cock vote is the only one that makes sense in its purity


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 27, 2021)

Chilli.s said:


> I was gonna vote spunking cock but was too worried that the teller/counters might interpret that as a literal representation of a vote for BJ!
> 
> At the mo, a spunking cock vote is the only one that makes sense in its purity


At least everyone knows what a vote for BJ will lead to


----------



## Mr Moose (Sep 27, 2021)

not-bono-ever said:


> Misfortune to have LBC in in the car earlier. Are people seriously not voting labour because of the woke agenda and starmers questioning this morning about the cervix. It’s as if the press are just being wankers.



Starmer’s answer was truly awful. However, has anyone got the form of words Labour should use on the ‘cervix question’ that won’t have voters running for the hills shouting ‘that’s it I’m done with Labour’?


----------



## gosub (Sep 27, 2021)

Mr Moose said:


> Starmer’s answer was truly awful. However, has anyone got the form of words Labour should use on the ‘cervix question’ that won’t have voters running for the hills shouting ‘that’s it I’m done with Labour’?


"The UK is currently facing crises on several fronts, such as a pandemic, energy, logistics, manpower. There are more food banks in the UK than McDonalds and a record number of people dependant on them......Its a question of priorities".


----------



## Mr Moose (Sep 27, 2021)

gosub said:


> "The UK is currently facing crises on several fronts, such as a pandemic, energy, logistics, manpower. There are more food banks in the UK than McDonalds and a record number of people dependant on them......Its a question of priorities".



Agree with that. But then it becomes ‘why won’t you answer?’


----------



## gosub (Sep 27, 2021)

Mr Moose said:


> Agree with that. But then it becomes ‘why won’t you answer?’


Because addressing the other issues demands our full attention.


----------



## kabbes (Sep 27, 2021)

Mr Moose said:


> Starmer’s answer was truly awful. However, has anyone got the form of words Labour should use on the ‘cervix question’ that won’t have voters running for the hills shouting ‘that’s it I’m done with Labour’?


How about he answers with what he actually thinks is right and then let the chips fall where they may?  Why has politics become about trying to work out what people want to hear and them just telling them that?


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 27, 2021)

teqniq said:


> There's nice:




He really is Sir Couldn't Keir Less


----------



## gosub (Sep 27, 2021)

kabbes said:


> How about he answers with what he actually thinks is right and then let the chips fall where they may?  Why has politics become about trying to work out what people want to hear and them just telling them that?


Cos the whole transgender thing has become emotive and entrenched for those that concern themselves with it.  For those that don't, myself included, its all a bit B-Ark


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 27, 2021)

kabbes said:


> How about he answers with what he actually thinks is right and then let the chips fall where they may?  Why has politics become about trying to work out what people want to hear and them just telling them that?


A novel idea. Can’t see it catching on…


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 27, 2021)

Mr Moose said:


> Starmer’s answer was truly awful. However, has anyone got the form of words Labour should use on the ‘cervix question’ that won’t have voters running for the hills shouting ‘that’s it I’m done with Labour’?


"Man, woman, cervix, no cervix - I don't care, in the interests of national security I wouldn't hesitate to nuke them all"?


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Sep 27, 2021)

'Is it a British cervix and does it have a flag on it?'


----------



## Chz (Sep 27, 2021)

Rimbaud said:


> Likewise I think I'm gonna vote Green next time purely because a high vote share for Green is the clearest message to Starmer and the right of the Party that their strategy of telling hundreds of thousands of enthusiastic new members to fuck off and go away isn't good politics.


Methinks someone hasn't read the Greens' manifesto. They have one or two decent people, but are mostly the same sackful of wankers you get at Labour. And the same shit where they've changed their minds at least three times about Brexit. I can't take them seriously outside of local politics, and I can't give them credibility with a protest vote.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 27, 2021)

Chz said:


> Methinks someone hasn't read the Greens' manifesto. They have one or two decent people, but are mostly the same sackful of wankers you get at Labour. And the same shit where they've changed their minds at least three times about Brexit. I can't take them seriously outside of local politics, and I can't give them credibility with a protest vote.


it doesnt matter what the manifesto says - they wont win any seats anyway - its about trying to make a vote in some vague way "meaningful" by sending cryptic messages within our democracy-killing system. votes to the greens will be interpreted in the way Rimbaud says


----------



## lazythursday (Sep 27, 2021)

ska invita said:


> it doesnt matter what the manifesto says - they wont win any seats anyway - its about trying to make a vote in some vague way "meaningful" by sending cryptic messages within our democracy-killing system. votes to the greens will be interpreted in the way Rimbaud says


Yeah - I think I shall be voting green too for precisely this reason. Up until this last few weeks I'd have held my nose and voted Labour, because this is a marginal Labour-held seat (a part of the red wall that didn't fall) with a decent local MP. But increasingly I can't see the point in doing that. Might as well have a Tory and at least let the town get its nose in the pork barrel.


----------



## Mr Moose (Sep 27, 2021)

kabbes said:


> How about he answers with what he actually thinks is right and then let the chips fall where they may?  Why has politics become about trying to work out what people want to hear and them just telling them that?



Why don’t you answer with what you think is right? 

And before you ask my answer would be that there are women without a cervix and that’s both biology and the law. The law is clear that people who change gender may be recognised in the gender they have changed to. We support the law wholeheartedly, I expect Labour Party supporters to support this law, to support trans people and crucially Andrew I do not believe this diminishes other women and our support for them.


----------



## Raheem (Sep 27, 2021)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> 'Is it a British cervix and does it have a flag on it?'


"I think back to my time in the Crown Prosecution Cervix".


----------



## kabbes (Sep 27, 2021)

Mr Moose said:


> Why don’t you answer with what you think is right?


Am I seeking  to be elected as a representative of the people?  Why no, I’m not. So it doesn’t much matter what I think. But it’s rather important to have a measure of the person that wants to represent me.


----------



## Mr Moose (Sep 27, 2021)

kabbes said:


> Am I seeking  to be elected as a representative of the people?  Why no, I’m not. So it doesn’t much matter what I think. But it’s rather important to have a measure of the person that wants to represent me.



I ask because many people seem to stumble on the issue rather than simply dealing with the hysterical ‘they are banning women!’ guff. 

It’s not going to go away so the least the leader of the Labour Party could do is workshop an answer to a question he was bound to be asked.


----------



## steveseagull (Sep 27, 2021)

Apparently Luke Akehurst is spitting feathers about this on conference floor. Keith likely spitting feathers as well


----------



## ska invita (Sep 27, 2021)

steveseagull said:


> Apparently Luke Akehurst is spitting feathers about this on conference floor. Keith likely spitting feathers as well



Ultimately all motions will be ignored but it's interesting to see the divide


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Sep 27, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> A novel idea. Can’t see it catching on…


Actually I first suggested this back in 1968.


----------



## Mr Moose (Sep 27, 2021)

steveseagull said:


> Apparently Luke Akehurst is spitting feathers about this on conference floor. Keith likely spitting feathers as well



Keith suddenly very keen to discuss cervixes or anything else bar the above.


----------



## steveseagull (Sep 27, 2021)




----------



## two sheds (Sep 27, 2021)

When he said 'Sir Kier' I thought 'that sounds wrong'


----------



## brogdale (Sep 27, 2021)

ffs




_*"...was told to argue against a National Minimum Wage of 15 pounds an hour..."*_


----------



## Sue (Sep 27, 2021)

kabbes said:


> How about he answers with what he actually thinks is right and then let the chips fall where they may?  Why has politics become about trying to work out what people want to hear and them just telling them that?


You mean actually having some beliefs and politics and shit?


----------



## Elpenor (Sep 27, 2021)

brogdale said:


> ffs
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Keep treading down the poor is confirmed as a Labour policy


----------



## redsquirrel (Sep 27, 2021)

ska invita said:


> it doesnt matter what the manifesto says - they wont win any seats anyway - its about trying to make a vote in some vague way "meaningful" by sending cryptic messages within our democracy-killing system. votes to the greens will be interpreted in the way Rimbaud says


Hang on, only a bit ago you were arguing that a vote for a party made people responsible for the actions of that party/government. Now it's all about the "messages: they send. Never mind that every political party has used a vote for them as an indication of the support for their policies.

'_When people vote blue they are supporting the parties policies, when they vote green or yellow they aren't showing support they are sending a message_' - this is self-serving nonsense.

EDIT: Is voting Labour 'sending a message' or is it support for their politics?


----------



## steveseagull (Sep 27, 2021)

The "can Keith go an entire day without stepping on a rake challenge"


----------



## brogdale (Sep 27, 2021)

Elpenor said:


> Keep treading down the poor is confirmed as a Labour policy


That a ShadCab member has to resign over support for just £15/hr NMW is pretty much emblematic of the party's poverty of ambition.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 27, 2021)

brogdale said:


> That a ShadCab member has to resign over support for just £15/hr NMW is pretty much emblematic of the party's poverty of ambition.


this is being somewhat misreported I think - the letter specifically says “Yesterday, your office instructed me to go into a meeting and *argue against a national minimum wage of £15 an hour,* and against statutory sick pay at the living wage. This is something I could not do.”

"Arguing against" is different for being supportive of £15per hour


----------



## Elpenor (Sep 27, 2021)

SSP at the living wage would be a good policy, it’s not recoverable for most employers (exception being very small employers I think) in the way that SMP is. I think it’s criminal how some companies treat sick pay and their employees, having seen it throughout my working life.

Although ideally companies would care about their staff to provide them with appropriate sick pay.


----------



## gosub (Sep 27, 2021)

ska invita said:


> this is being somewhat misreported I think - the letter specifically says “Yesterday, your office instructed me to go into a meeting and *argue against a national minimum wage of £15 an hour,* and against statutory sick pay at the living wage. This is something I could not do.”
> 
> "Arguing against" is different for being supportive of £15per hour


personally think not sorting out SSP is the bigger fuck up.  Post covid everybody knows its a pittance and has a better grasp of why turning up to work sick is a bad idea


----------



## Elpenor (Sep 27, 2021)

I felt so bad for the school cleaners I was paying last year who didn’t even earn enough to get the pittance which was SSP.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 27, 2021)

gosub said:


> personally think not sorting out SSP is the bigger fuck up.  Post covid everybody knows its a pittance and has a better grasp of why turning up to work sick is a bad idea


SSP at minimum wage is a great idea - i've been on it myself in the past and the £90 a week IIRC was painful - but the state needs to pay it, or businesses need to be means tested to afford it...with lots of these things there are endless small businesses who cant afford £15per hour and SSP can sink them. 

We have an economy that is wildly imbalanced...£15 per hour is small change to some and a pipe dream to others...same with rents...its like two parallel worlds out here


----------



## Elpenor (Sep 27, 2021)

ska invita said:


> SSP at minimum wage is a great idea - i've been on it myself in the past and the £90 a week IIRC was painful - but the state needs to pay it, or businesses need to be means tested to afford it...with lots of these things there are endless small businesses who cant afford £15per hour and SSP can sink them.
> 
> We have an economy that is wildly imbalanced...£15 per hour is small change to some and a pipe dream to others...same with rents...its like two parallel worlds out here


I was wrong in my earlier cost, it’s not recoverable at all anymore even for micro employers. It was 80% recoverable initially, then dropped to 0% in 1995.  So it’s a cost to employers, unlike the parental based absences which are for the most part recoverable. This needs to change. It’s notable if not surprising that no attempt to reverse this measure during the period 1997-2010 when there was a Labour government with a dominant majority. 









						Micro-employers lose SSP funding
					

From 6 April, small businesses are to lose the right to reclaim statutory sick pay (SSP) that they pay out… | Health | Finance | Finance | Government | Opinion | National |




					bdaily.co.uk


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 27, 2021)

Elpenor said:


> Keep treading down the poor is confirmed as a Labour policy


Thought it was one of their few principles or totems


----------



## PR1Berske (Sep 27, 2021)

Thread :


----------



## two sheds (Sep 27, 2021)

So presumably the conference can vote the leadership rules changed back again next year?


----------



## steveseagull (Sep 27, 2021)

two sheds said:


> So presumably the conference can vote the leadership rules changed back again next year?


Keith got defeated on going back to electoral college system but he did get through raising the nomination threshold to 20%, which will manly ensure a stale white male is the only person who has a chance of leadership. Think Owen Smith.

It is quite bizarre he has spent half of conference trying to rig the rules for his predecessor. He may know his law stuff but I reckon he is as thick as badger soup when it come to anything else.


----------



## two sheds (Sep 27, 2021)

but can't next conference reverse that decision/vote?

The vote was sort of sprung on people this year.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 27, 2021)

steveseagull said:


> Keith got defeated on going back to electoral college system but he did get through raising the nomination threshold to 20%, which will manly ensure a stale white male is the only person who has a chance of leadership. Think Owen Smith.
> 
> It is quite bizarre he has spent half of conference trying to rig the rules for his predecessor. He may know his law stuff but I reckon he is as thick as badger soup when it come to anything else.


nothing bizarre about it - the labour right have had the living shit scared out of them under corbyn and they know what their priority is: to never let it happen again. better do that asap, especially not near an election


----------



## killer b (Sep 27, 2021)

It isn't that bizarre is it? It's just the right wing of the party trying to shift the balance of power away from the left wing membership, and towards the right wing PLP. Why wouldn't they do that? One of the failings of Corbynism is that it didn't  consilidate the left's control of the party as ruthlessly.


----------



## Gramsci (Sep 28, 2021)

two sheds said:


> but can't next conference reverse that decision/vote?
> 
> The vote was sort of sprung on people this year.



I've been trying to look up history of OMOV.

Interestingly it wasn't the Left who brought it in. The early times of OMOV was for example opposed by Tony Benn.

Im no expert on Labour Party history but initially OMOV was out forward by those who wanted to reduce old school Trade Union influence. Back years ago.

So when it was first introduced it wasn't about getting left wing leader.

In practise its meant that membership have used OMOV in way they wasn't envisaged back when it was first proposed.

Or have I got this history wrong?

At least back then rule change was proceeded by consultation. Not just decided by right few days before conference.


----------



## two sheds (Sep 28, 2021)

Bit of a hollow victory if it can (he hopes) be reversed next year.

I hope it wasn't anything to do with Sharon Graham's decision not to go to the conference.


----------



## Gramsci (Sep 28, 2021)

Back in John Smith leadership OMOV for parliamentary candidates was considered reducing power of Trade Unions. 









						Smith pulls off high-risk gamble
					

In a day of extraordinary tension and turbulent fortune John Smith yesterday won his year-long battle to reshape the selection of Labour parliamentary candidates. But he was saved from political catastrophe only by a last-minute change from one of the largest union delegations and a...




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## strung out (Sep 28, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Bit of a hollow victory if it can (he hopes) be reversed next year.
> 
> I hope it wasn't anything to do with Sharon Graham's decision not to go to the conference.


Who's going to reverse it next year?


----------



## Badgers (Sep 28, 2021)

Sprocket. said:


> Jeremy Corbyn, allegedly according to Kieth.


#ToryScum


----------



## two sheds (Sep 28, 2021)

strung out said:


> Who's going to reverse it next year?


Not sure of the procedures, but can't there be motion to reverse the change? Assuming that not all left wingers have been expelled by next year, the vote was fairly close and was anyway sort of sprung on conference. Particularly if Keith becomes even more dismal and there's a decent challenger from the left (yes, I know).


----------



## killer b (Sep 28, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Not sure of the procedures, but can't there be motion to reverse the change? Assuming that not all left wingers have been expelled by next year, the vote was fairly close and was anyway sort of sprung on conference. Particularly if Keith becomes even more dismal and there's a decent challenger from the left (yes, I know).


no one is going to reverse it next year.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 28, 2021)

killer b said:


> no one is going to reverse it next year.


...but rules will no doubt change again at some future time....


----------



## Knotted (Sep 28, 2021)

I don't pay much attention to Peston, so I didn't realise he was this... blatant









						Sir Keir Starmer gives Labour MPs their party back | ITV News
					

Keir Starmer has transferred power to MPs in a bid to limit the influence of the left and pitch Labour in the centre of British politics, Robert Peston writes. | ITV National News




					www.itv.com


----------



## killer b (Sep 28, 2021)

ska invita said:


> ...but rules will no doubt change again at some future time....


Sure that's right.

Next time they'll probably succeed in pushing through the electoral college changes they dropped this time round.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 28, 2021)

killer b said:


> Sure that's right.
> 
> Next time they'll probably succeed in pushing through the electoral college changes they dropped this time round.


aye - its what made all those Labour MPs arguing "now is not the time" so annoying - rather than defending democracy they were basically saying, do it next time


----------



## gosub (Sep 28, 2021)

ska invita said:


> ...but rules will no doubt change again at some future time....


The further round the electoral cycle and closer to an election the more it will look like naval gazing


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 28, 2021)

_Labour conference is an unparalleled theatre of class struggle; the party is no longer a“safe” component of British state infrastructure._


----------



## steveseagull (Sep 28, 2021)

So anyway, after starting the conference at a level that was fairly disastrous it seems to have gone downhill from there and seems to have been an utterly soulless uninspiring event with all the exciting stuff happening on the fringes. 

He has his conference speech tomorrow. Maybe he can revive himself. It is going to be a thick soup of dull managerialism and clichés isn't it?

Maybe he should do his speech from his bunker so no one else hears it.

This poll covers the first part of his conference and it is not looking great. On a plus sign he is still wildly popular with Lib Dems but even that is waning.


----------



## Wilf (Sep 28, 2021)

killer b said:


> Sure that's right.
> 
> Next time they'll probably succeed in pushing through the electoral college changes they dropped this time round.


Yep, if the left couldn't sort themselves out in terms of party processes and decision making when they had Corbyn as leader and hundreds of thousands of new members, they aint't going to be able to do anything now.


----------



## Chilli.s (Sep 28, 2021)

Should rename the party Laboural Democrats


----------



## elbows (Sep 28, 2021)

Chilli.s said:


> Should rename the party Laboural Democrats



Laboured Jokes and the griminum wage.


----------



## PR1Berske (Sep 28, 2021)




----------



## ruffneck23 (Sep 28, 2021)

PR1Berske said:


>



Beat me to it


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Sep 28, 2021)

Labour conference: Winning election more important than unity, says Sir Keir Starmer
					

The Labour leader tells the BBC his party has to change to avoid losing another general election.



					www.bbc.co.uk
				




Order of business number one then - get rid of that useless Starmer twat.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 28, 2021)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> Labour conference: Winning election more important than unity, says Sir Keir Starmer
> 
> 
> The Labour leader tells the BBC his party has to change to avoid losing another general election.
> ...




Such a fucking bellend. If he is so sodding forensic surely he could work out why the last election went so much to the Tory scumbags and take note that Brown and that bacon-sandwich dickhead lost roundly with no Brexit bullshit in the air. No wonder Johnson's feeling so fucking untouchable right now.


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 28, 2021)

PR1Berske said:


>



Good statement that:


> The decision taken by delegates who predominantly live in what’s regarded as Labour red wall seats shows how far the Labour party has travelled away from the aims and hopes of working class organisations like ours.
> 
> The decision by the party to not engage with a union that levied its poorly paid members in 1902 to build a party that would bring about real change to their lives, is the culmination of a failure to deliver those changes during our 119 year relationship.
> 
> ...


----------



## Artaxerxes (Sep 28, 2021)

Knotted said:


> I don't pay much attention to Peston, so I didn't realise he was this... blatant
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The big name British media is a fucking cesspool of sycophantic half arsed jokers who wouldn't know real journalism if it bit them in the face. About the only in depth reporting in the mainstream is done in Private Eye and even thats a fucking old boys network for the most part.


----------



## PR1Berske (Sep 28, 2021)




----------



## Johnny Vodka (Sep 28, 2021)

Looking like a womble on ch4 news...


----------



## Quote (Sep 28, 2021)

His famed 'forensic' legal skills seem to be mostly used to wriggle out of his own lies and broken promises.


----------



## elbows (Sep 28, 2021)

Quote said:


> His famed 'forensic' legal skills seem to be mostly used to wriggle out of his own lies and broken promises.



Sir leader of the opposition to himself, a messy case yet to be settled in the court of appeal to nobody. Qualified for the bar yet cannot finish his pint.


----------



## elbows (Sep 28, 2021)

An enthusiastic proponent of the minimum rage and the living cage.


----------



## Quote (Sep 28, 2021)

"If there's one thing potential voters should know about me, it's that I'm a complete liar. I've lied before, I will lie again. I love it."

A bold strategy.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 28, 2021)

will be interesting to see the crowd response after his pledge breaking speech


----------



## two sheds (Sep 28, 2021)

but how do we _know _he's going to break pledges


----------



## elbows (Sep 28, 2021)

You could have a big dipper
Going up and down, all around the bends
You could have a bumper car, bumping
This amusement never ends
I want to be your pledgehammer
Why don't you call my name
Oh let me be your pledgehammer
This will be my testimony


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Sep 29, 2021)

Quote said:


> "If there's one thing potential voters should know about me, it's that I'm a complete liar. I've lied before, I will lie again. I love it."
> 
> A bold strategy.



Focus groups have identified the 'big fans of massive liars' demographic as a key part of the Johnson vote he needs to appeal to.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Sep 29, 2021)

two sheds said:


> but how do we _know _he's going to break pledges


Kier:- "You'll just have to trust me on this. I've broken pledges before and I'll break them again. The difference going forwards, and this is where I'm a really special human being showing true leadership qualities, is that I will put my intention to break pledges into our manifesto. Labour will never again be accused of going back on its word more than once."


----------



## killer b (Sep 29, 2021)

Quote said:


> "If there's one thing potential voters should know about me, it's that I'm a complete liar. I've lied before, I will lie again. I love it."
> 
> A bold strategy.


gentle reminder that when you look at a newspaper headline - especially in the Independent - and think 'OMG did he really say that??', the answer is invariably 'no'.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Sep 29, 2021)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> Focus groups have identified the 'big fans of massive liars' demographic as a key part of the Johnson vote he needs to appeal to.



Tbf we have Johnson as pm so clearly massive liars have some appeal


----------



## chilango (Sep 29, 2021)

killer b said:


> gentle reminder that when you look at a newspaper headline - especially in the Independent - and think 'OMG did he really say that??', the answer is invariably 'no'.


Although, like Cameron and the pig fucking, its power comes not from whether it actually happened but that it fits with the image people have of him.


----------



## killer b (Sep 29, 2021)

chilango said:


> Although, like Cameron and the pig fucking, its power comes not from whether it actually happened but that it fits with the image people have of him.


I disagree, the power comes from people not reading the story behind the headline and sharing it as though it's something real


----------



## two sheds (Sep 29, 2021)

He's broken his promise to Labour members that he'd unify the party, which seems central to him getting voted in as leader.


----------



## Elpenor (Sep 29, 2021)

Someone on Jeremy Vine’s radio 2 phone in yesterday said that if they wanted to vote for Kier’s brand of politics they could just vote Tory. 

Says it all really


----------



## killer b (Sep 29, 2021)

two sheds said:


> He's broken his promise to Labour members that he'd unify the party, which seems central to him getting voted in as leader.


sure he's done that. what he hasn't done though, is say 'I'm ready to break pledges if they make Labour unelectable' like the independent's headline quoted above says, which is what people have been discussing for the last page.


----------



## chilango (Sep 29, 2021)

killer b said:


> I disagree, the power comes from people not reading the story behind the headline and sharing it as though it's something real


...that o ly works if it's 'credible' though. Hence no Starmer pig fucking stories.


----------



## maomao (Sep 29, 2021)

killer b said:


> sure he's done that. what he hasn't done though, is say 'I'm ready to break pledges if they make Labour unelectable' like the independent's headline quoted above says, which is what people have been discussing for the last page.


In fact he's just ready to break pledges because he's a lying prick. Which would be a better headline tbf.


----------



## two sheds (Sep 29, 2021)

killer b said:


> sure he's done that. what he hasn't done though, is say 'I'm ready to break pledges if they make Labour unelectable' like the independent's headline quoted above says, which is what people have been discussing for the last page.


Unifying the party is a pretty central promise though, to labour party members. And he clearly knew it was a lie when he promised it.

The headline wasn't actually a quote, it was a paraphrase. This paragraph does suggest he'll happily break more promises if he thinks it'll get him elected.

“I stand by the principles and the values behind the pledges I made to our members, but the most important pledge I made was that I would turn it into a party that would be fit for government, capable of winning a general election, I’m not going to be deflected from that.”



			Starmer: I’m ready to break pledges to make Labour electable


----------



## maomao (Sep 29, 2021)

chilango said:


> ...that o ly works if it's 'credible' though. Hence no Starmer pig fucking stories.


No pig would ever stoop so low.


----------



## killer b (Sep 29, 2021)

chilango said:


> ...that o ly works if it's 'credible' though. Hence no Starmer pig fucking stories.


'politician doesn't do what he said he would to get elected' is a credible headline about every politician in the world ever though.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 29, 2021)

Elpenor said:


> Someone on Jeremy Vine’s radio 2 phone in yesterday said that if they wanted to vote for Kier’s brand of politics they could just vote Tory.
> 
> Says it all really


well thats wrong - the Tories are soft on crime - not like Our Glorious Protecter QC Starmer Director Of All Prosecutions


----------



## brogdale (Sep 29, 2021)

Did Corbyn mislead the selectorate with false promises?


----------



## killer b (Sep 29, 2021)

two sheds said:


> The headline wasn't actually a quote.


Yes. But it's being discussed here, and elsewhere, as if it's a direct quote. Which is why The Independent wrote it the way they did.


----------



## killer b (Sep 29, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Did Corbyn mislead the selectorate with false promises?


I'm not very interested, though I'm sure if you looked hard enough you could concoct a similar headline about Corbyn. This was certainly an attack line in the 2019 election over his position on Brexit. 

All I'm saying is that Starmer didn't say what the Independent headline makes out he did, and that posters should perhaps read the story behind a headline before discussing it


----------



## chilango (Sep 29, 2021)

killer b said:


> 'politician doesn't do what he said he would to get elected' is a credible headline about every politician in the world ever though.


Yeah...and I agree with you that people should pay more attention to what they share 'as if true'. My point was that, in many respects, it doesn't actually matter.


----------



## killer b (Sep 29, 2021)

oh. I think it does matter.


----------



## chilango (Sep 29, 2021)

killer b said:


> oh. I think it does matter.


To you, on this thread, in discussion more widely? Yes. In terms of 'politics', the creation and deployment of 'characters' as ideological fetish objects? Not in the slightest.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Sep 29, 2021)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> Kier:- "You'll just have to trust me on this. I've broken pledges before and I'll break them again. The difference going forwards, and this is where I'm a really special human being showing true leadership qualities, is that I will put my intention to break pledges into our manifesto. Labour will never again be accused of going back on its word more than once."





killer b said:


> All I'm saying is that Starmer didn't say what the Independent headline makes out he did, and that posters should perhaps read the story behind a headline before discussing it


OK killer b . I'll come clean. I wasn't actually quoting Starmer in my post above, just summarising and extrapolating from his entire political career.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 29, 2021)

ska invita said:


> well thats wrong - the Tories are soft on crime - not like Our Glorious Protecter QC Starmer Director Of All Prosecutions


I like how Starmers response to the Black Lives Matter _moment_ was the Tories Are Defunding The Police...Refund The Police!

Clearly a lot of thinking went into that









						Tories have ‘defunded the police’, says shadow home secretary
					

Nick Thomas-Symonds tells Labour conference he will not take money away from police forces




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## killer b (Sep 29, 2021)

chilango said:


> To you, on this thread, in discussion more widely? Yes. In terms of 'politics', the creation and deployment of 'characters' as ideological fetish objects? Not in the slightest.


I don't really understand what this means tbh


----------



## ska invita (Sep 29, 2021)

This all might work... Tories preside over mild societal collapse, the media boost Starmer, he wins key marginals etc . It's not impossible. There's some painful Brexit stuff coming next year. Crucial could be what three word slogan the Tories come up with!


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Sep 29, 2021)

ska invita said:


> This all might work... Tories preside over mild societal collapse, the media boost Starmer, he wins key marginals etc . It's not impossible. There's some painful Brexit stuff coming next year. Crucial could be what three word slogan the Tories come up with!


It weren't me.


----------



## chilango (Sep 29, 2021)

killer b said:


> I don't really understand what this means tbh



That the characters being created and presented "decadent Dave", "pragmatic Kier" allow us to project all kinds of political meaning onto them. So, for Starmer, it doesn't matter whether he actually said he'd renage on his pledges, but that it is a believable part of his "character" allows those who seek to be convinced of his pragmatism over politics to see that in this.


----------



## DaphneM (Sep 29, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Tbf we have Johnson as pm so clearly massive liars have some appeal


We have Johnson as PM because of Corbyn.


----------



## chilango (Sep 29, 2021)

Anyway, I'll bow out now before I start blathering on about Starmer being a "floating signifier"  Nobody needs to heat that nonsense!


----------



## two sheds (Sep 29, 2021)

I get them they're fucking annoying - sometimes have to wait until they've passed until I can see something properly


----------



## Wilf (Sep 29, 2021)

To be honest, the mush that comes out of starmer's gob never amounts to anything as clear as truth or lie.


----------



## PR1Berske (Sep 29, 2021)

He is doing the Blair Gambit. Telling the Left, "I want to beat the Tories, so join me in that or keep your mouths shut" 

Blair did that in the days of the early internet. Things are different now.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 29, 2021)

Tweaking the irony dials up to 11?


----------



## two sheds (Sep 29, 2021)

Yes I saw that. 'Lost in the woods' is the phrase that is going to bring the government down they might as well resign now


----------



## lazythursday (Sep 29, 2021)

This is a very odd use of language, 'lost in the woods', no? It's making me think of Boris and Gove and Priti on some sort of outward bound thing, jolly japes in a rural idyll. It doesn't seem that bad - bit of contact with the natural world and all that. If anything it seems to make the Tories appear more environmentally sensitive. If he'd said 'lost in the desert' at least it conjures up scarcity, both regarding things in the shops and ideas!


----------



## Sue (Sep 29, 2021)

lazythursday said:


> This is a very odd use of language, 'lost in the woods', no? It's making me think of Boris and Gove and Priti on some sort of outward bound thing, jolly japes in a rural idyll. It doesn't seem that bad - bit of contact with the natural world and all that. If anything it seems to make the Tories appear more environmentally sensitive. If he'd said 'lost in the desert' at least it conjures up scarcity, both regarding things in the shops and ideas!


Makes me think of Someone to Watch Over Me (song) - Wikipedia  

There's a somebody I'm longing to see
I hope that she turns out to be
Someone who'll watch over me

*I'm a little lamb who's lost in the woods*
I know I could always be good
To one who will watch over me

Although I may not be the man some
Girls think of as handsome
It's my heart she carries the key

Won't you tell her please to put on some speed
Follow my lead oh how I need
Someone to watch over me


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 29, 2021)

This is pretty good from Edgerton. His rather airy dismissal of the importance of ‘red wall’ does have some problems: not least that Labour would be unlikely to be able to even form a minority government without it but his arguments on the economy are useful:









						RENEWING LABOUR — David Edgerton
					

The line from the briefers on the eve of Starmer’s speech to the Labour Party conference is that Labour is now looking outward, to the future and is determined to win.  The bleak reality is that it looks inward ever more, finding fault with itself, is obsessed with the recent past of the pa




					www.davidedgerton.org


----------



## brogdale (Sep 29, 2021)

Only needs the traditional Kinnock style gambolling along the surf's edge...


----------



## Brainaddict (Sep 29, 2021)

lazythursday said:


> This is a very odd use of language, 'lost in the woods', no? It's making me think of Boris and Gove and Priti on some sort of outward bound thing, jolly japes in a rural idyll. It doesn't seem that bad - bit of contact with the natural world and all that. If anything it seems to make the Tories appear more environmentally sensitive. If he'd said 'lost in the desert' at least it conjures up scarcity, both regarding things in the shops and ideas!


It's the language of a technocrat trying to project competence. He's declaring that he's not interested in the Tory's ideological project or having one of his own, he'll just be better at governing than them because he knows what he's doing. Fits with the whole Zombie Blairism he's trying to sell.


----------



## lazythursday (Sep 29, 2021)

Brainaddict said:


> It's the language of a technocrat trying to project competence. He's declaring that he's not interested in the Tory's ideological project or having one of his own, he'll just be better at governing than them because he knows what he's doing. Fits with the whole Zombie Blairism he's trying to sell.


I agree, but even within those technocratic boundaries, there are better ways of framing it. It's not just zombie Blairism, it's pound shop zombie Blairism.


----------



## Wilf (Sep 29, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Only needs the traditional Kinnock style gambolling along the surf's edge...
> 
> View attachment 290564


What the fuck is it with him always holding a coffee in these publicity shots?  I've seen it several times now.

PR whatthefuckery aside, it's not a great look environmentally.


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 29, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Only needs the traditional Kinnock style gambolling along the surf's edge...
> 
> View attachment 290564


recall stephen kinnock trying to put that on glynnis raher than N Kinnocks poor footing? shameless.


----------



## Sprocket. (Sep 29, 2021)

DotCommunist said:


> recall stephen kinnock trying to put that on glynnis raher than N Kinnocks poor footing? shameless.


It’s what tories do.


----------



## Rimbaud (Sep 29, 2021)

Wilf said:


> What the fuck is it with him always holding a coffee in these publicity shots?  I've seen it several times now.
> 
> PR whatthefuckery aside, it's not a great look environmentally.



Good catch.

I guess some PR wonk has decided it projects an image of him being both hard working as well as human and relatable - grabbing a coffee to go early in the morning on the way to work.


----------



## Wilf (Sep 29, 2021)

Rimbaud said:


> Good catch.
> 
> I guess some PR wonk has decided it projects an image of him being both hard working as well as human and relatable - grabbing a coffee to go early in the morning on the way to work.


Yeah, it sort of catches both the sort of thing you'd do on route to a business meeting and also the seafront/with friends/'I'm normal' thing. In reality it ends up being a prop for his non-engagement with the voters, just as his pint holding is with everyday blokery.

Anyway, could be worse...


----------



## elbows (Sep 29, 2021)

Sir Sire Slavers New Taser Party.


----------



## Wilf (Sep 29, 2021)

Ooops, big!


----------



## ruffneck23 (Sep 29, 2021)

About to listen to his speech , I'm not expecting much tbh


----------



## killer b (Sep 29, 2021)

ruffneck23 said:


> About to listen to his speech , I'm not expecting much tbh


not much on?


----------



## elbows (Sep 29, 2021)

ruffneck23 said:


> About to listen to his speech , I'm not expecting much tbh



A joke about Arsenal.

Level up, you cant even fill up.

A career in standup doesnt beckon.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 29, 2021)

I'm looking forward to this bit..

_Fourthly, I shall tell you again what you know.  Because you are from the people, because you are of the people, because you live with the same realities as everybody else lives with, implausible promises don’t win victories.  I’ll tell you what happens with impossible promises.  You start with far-fetched resolutions.  They are then pickled into a rigid dogma, a code, and you go through the years sticking to that, out-dated, mis-placed, irrelevant to the real needs, and you end up in the grotesque chaos of a Labour council hiring taxis to scuttle round a city handing out redundancy notices to its own workers._


----------



## ruffneck23 (Sep 29, 2021)

killer b said:


> not much on?


not much content


----------



## belboid (Sep 29, 2021)

Wilf said:


> What the fuck is it with him always holding a coffee in these publicity shots?  I've seen it several times now.
> 
> PR whatthefuckery aside, it's not a great look environmentally.


You can’t be going around with an empty hand, looks bad and only worsened by being stuck in a pocket.  I’ll bet you sixpence it’s a recyclable cup with a wanky slogan somewhere.


----------



## elbows (Sep 29, 2021)

Even managed to do an injustice to Johnson by taking a Johnson UN quote totally out of context.


----------



## elbows (Sep 29, 2021)

Some sporadic heckling.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 29, 2021)

elbows said:


> Some sporadic heckling.


Not enough.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 29, 2021)

Ah, the dealing with the hecklers line.


----------



## elbows (Sep 29, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Not enough.



Doesnt take much to put him off though, judging by the opening minutes.


----------



## elbows (Sep 29, 2021)

Slow and steady decline is a strange choice of words.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 29, 2021)

Here we go...back story time.


----------



## elbows (Sep 29, 2021)

Today I want to tell you where my passions were born, and where they died.


----------



## Quote (Sep 29, 2021)

The faux sincerity and jazz hands are off the scale.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 29, 2021)

Quote said:


> The faux sincerity and jazz hands are off the scale.


along with the 'fireside chat' voice modulation for the back story


----------



## elbows (Sep 29, 2021)

At least he didnt combine the death penalty award bit with another football joke.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 29, 2021)

Bit of a shitshow...


----------



## ruffneck23 (Sep 29, 2021)




----------



## Shechemite (Sep 29, 2021)

Why does anyone waste their time with this? Entertaining to watch I guess


----------



## ruffneck23 (Sep 29, 2021)

A young radical was he ?


----------



## Shechemite (Sep 29, 2021)

One more push and we’ll get the party back, then lose it again, then maybe get it back again


----------



## elbows (Sep 29, 2021)

Justice was about seeing Ron and putting him right.


----------



## ruffneck23 (Sep 29, 2021)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Why does anyone waste their time with this? Entertaining to watch I guess


I should be working to be fair


----------



## Shechemite (Sep 29, 2021)

Explaining what words mean now. Thanks kier


----------



## elbows (Sep 29, 2021)

Rhetoric from Labour people about being the first in their family to go to university still stings given the imposition of tuition fees. A window of opportunity nailed shut.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 29, 2021)

The strategy was clearly to silence the room early on with the extended self-regarding back story in hushed tones and associated tales of misery.


----------



## andysays (Sep 29, 2021)

lazythursday said:


> ...pound shop zombie Blairism.


That's Starmer's political epitaph right there


----------



## brogdale (Sep 29, 2021)

A kind of macabre _This is your life _reveal.
Jesus...exploitative, or what?


----------



## elbows (Sep 29, 2021)

Humbly standing on the shoulders of stab victims.


----------



## ruffneck23 (Sep 29, 2021)

bored now, switching off, I'l leave it for you peeps to fill in.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 29, 2021)

His delivery is really odd. The applause is weird.


----------



## Shechemite (Sep 29, 2021)

Kind of Orwellian dystopia vibe


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 29, 2021)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Kind of Orwellian dystopia vibe


We have always been at war with eastasia


----------



## brogdale (Sep 29, 2021)

ruffneck23 said:


> bored now, switching off, I'l leave it for you peeps to fill in.


Nah, I'm out now n'all


----------



## Sprocket. (Sep 29, 2021)

belboid said:


> You can’t be going around with an empty hand, looks bad and only worsened by being stuck in a pocket.  I’ll bet you sixpence it’s a recyclable cup with a wanky slogan somewhere.


Surprised he’s not carrying a union flag in his sweaty mitt.


----------



## two sheds (Sep 29, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> We have always been at war with eastasia


and Corbynia


----------



## Mr Moose (Sep 29, 2021)

ruffneck23 said:


> A young radical was he ?



You mock, but I heard he would regularly switch the immersion tank on and not even take a bath. If you have anything as rebellious in your CV I'm all ears to hear it.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 29, 2021)

Have we got to the bit where he explains why danny la rouge wasn't allowed a stall, yet?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 29, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Have we got to the bit where he explains why danny la rouge wasn't allowed a stall, yet?


They take a strong line on animal rights so no dog hypnotism


----------



## SpookyFrank (Sep 29, 2021)

The Tories aren't lost in the woods at all they're having a whale of time taking the absolute fucking piss. Which they're able to do not least because the opposition is so useless.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 29, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> They take a strong line on animal rights so no dog hypnotism


Delivered sotto voce..._something that I learnt at home _{overly long pause} _.....around the kitchen table from my old dog...._


----------



## belboid (Sep 29, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> The Tories aren't lost in the woods at all


bit hard for them to be considering they’ve just burnt said woods down


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 29, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> The Tories aren't lost in the woods at all they're having a whale of time taking the absolute fucking piss. Which they're able to do not least because the opposition is so useless.


Yes, Newton's law that every action has an equal and opposite reaction is being re-examined by the royal society as the LP under starmer has it seems disproved it


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 29, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Have we got to the bit where he explains why danny la rouge wasn't allowed a stall, yet?


To be fair, I didn’t apply for one.


----------



## ruffneck23 (Sep 29, 2021)

Mr Moose said:


> You mock, but I heard he would regularly switch the immersion tank on and not even take a bath. If you have anything as rebellious in your CV I'm all ears to hear it.


Even my work experience on my CV is more rebellious


----------



## brogdale (Sep 29, 2021)

Epstein's mate clearly inputting into the speechwriting.


----------



## Mr Moose (Sep 29, 2021)

I know it's not the intention, but Keith appears to be promising that under his Labour the UK will never run out of people with mental health problems.


----------



## andysays (Sep 29, 2021)

brogdale said:


> View attachment 290580
> 
> Epstein's mate clearly inputting into the speechwriting.


Isn't it a reference to Blair's "education, education, education"?


----------



## Chilli.s (Sep 29, 2021)

Don't they get tired of clapping all that guff


----------



## Mr Moose (Sep 29, 2021)

Now kids have to do sport while playing a musical instrument. Madness.


----------



## Sprocket. (Sep 29, 2021)

If he was giving a speech in our front garden I would close the curtains.


----------



## magneze (Sep 29, 2021)

Mr Moose said:


> Now kids have to do sport while playing a musical instrument. Madness.


----------



## Cid (Sep 29, 2021)

Sprocket. said:


> If he was giving a speech in our front garden I would close the curtains.



If there's any likelihood of that happening, borrow a pressure washer.


----------



## maomao (Sep 29, 2021)

If he is promising a green new deal why was he so fucking rude to that young woman who wanted to talk to him about it the other day?


----------



## Raheem (Sep 29, 2021)

Cid said:


> If there's any likelihood of that happening, borrow a pressure washer.


Or a lion.


----------



## Cid (Sep 29, 2021)

maomao said:


> If he is promising a green new deal why was he so fucking rude to that young woman who wanted to talk to him about it the other day?



It's fucking stupid. I mean even by the Blairite measure, just fucking lie and deal with the minor fallout in the unlikely event you get into power. But yeah, especially stupid when it's your only memorable policy.


----------



## maomao (Sep 29, 2021)

Cid said:


> It's fucking stupid. I mean even by the Blairite measure, just fucking lie and deal with the minor fallout in the unlikely event you get into power.


But it would have been a great opportunity. Even if (as I suspect) his green new deal is not quite the same as hers he could've said something like 'I've got a lot to say about that, but you'll have to wait till Wednesday, thanks for your support'. The only possible conclusion is that he is an absolute prick who hates Labour members. I'm getting to the point where I would support someone voting Tory against his Labour party.


----------



## elbows (Sep 29, 2021)

Tools gold.


----------



## Shechemite (Sep 29, 2021)

Lol


----------



## Quote (Sep 29, 2021)

He knew he'd get heckled and had some pre-prepared 'zingers'. 

"They heckled me, in the middle of my tool analogy, who could work with such monsters?"


----------



## maomao (Sep 29, 2021)

What was the heckling like? The Guardian seem to have left it out of their live feed.


----------



## Quote (Sep 29, 2021)

Couldn't really tell. One older lady seemed to be be having a go over something early on and then a few more after that, but it was all inaudible. 

He ran out of comebacks after two heckles so just glared.


----------



## maomao (Sep 29, 2021)

Quote said:


> Couldn't really tell. One older lady seemed to be be having a go over something early on and then a few more after that, but it was all inaudible.
> 
> He ran out of comebacks after two heckles so just glared.


Were the comebacks at all snappy?


----------



## not-bono-ever (Sep 29, 2021)

He missed a chance to crack a joke about thatchers experience  in brighton. He should have slipped it in somewhere


----------



## not-bono-ever (Sep 29, 2021)

I would have. Maybe that’s why i am not a sir and public figure


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 29, 2021)

chilango said:


> Anyway, I'll bow out now before I start blathering on about Starmer being a "floating signifier"  Nobody needs to heat that nonsense!


So did Starmer fuck that pig or didn't he?


lazythursday said:


> This is a very odd use of language, 'lost in the woods', no? It's making me think of Boris and Gove and Priti on some sort of outward bound thing, jolly japes in a rural idyll. It doesn't seem that bad - bit of contact with the natural world and all that. If anything it seems to make the Tories appear more environmentally sensitive. If he'd said 'lost in the desert' at least it conjures up scarcity, both regarding things in the shops and ideas!


Having a picnic in the woods near Barnard Castle, maybe?


Wilf said:


> What the fuck is it with him always holding a coffee in these publicity shots?  I've seen it several times now.
> 
> PR whatthefuckery aside, it's not a great look environmentally.


But most importantly, is it a frothy coffee?


----------



## gosub (Sep 29, 2021)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Lol



got spun on the 2pm BBC radio news as a contrast to Corbyn....which was odd cos my first thought on hearing the headline was it was a contrast from the no dissent days of Blair et al


----------



## Rimbaud (Sep 29, 2021)

maomao said:


> If he is promising a green new deal why was he so fucking rude to that young woman who wanted to talk to him about it the other day?



Cos he's a dickhead.


----------



## JimW (Sep 29, 2021)

Tories in the woods are burying bodies.


----------



## two sheds (Sep 29, 2021)

but nobody can hear them.


----------



## Dogsauce (Sep 29, 2021)

two sheds said:


> but nobody can hear them.


I think the premise that nobody can hear them scream in the forest should be tested. You can get quite good cordless power tools these days.


----------



## Wilf (Sep 29, 2021)

not-bono-ever said:


> He missed a chance to crack a joke about thatchers experience  in brighton. He should have slipped it in somewhere


Bombed?


----------



## Sue (Sep 29, 2021)

Dogsauce said:


> I think the premise that nobody can hear them scream in the forest should be tested. You can get quite good cordless power tools these days.


That's space....


----------



## Dogsauce (Sep 29, 2021)

Sue said:


> That's space....


Well, we could try that one as well.


----------



## maomao (Sep 29, 2021)

Dogsauce said:


> I think the premise that nobody can hear them scream in the forest should be tested. You can get quite good cordless power tools these days.



Things you can't hear in different places:

Forests - trees falling when no-one's around
Space - people screaming
Bedrooms - your mum coming when you're having a wank with headphones on


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 29, 2021)

Sprocket. said:


> If he was giving a speech in our front garden I would close the curtains.


And stuck your fingers in your ears crying la la la I can't hear you


----------



## Sprocket. (Sep 29, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> And stuck your fingers in your ears crying la la la I can't hear you


I haven’t ever heard anything from that end of the party worth listening to anyhoo.


----------



## PR1Berske (Sep 29, 2021)




----------



## Johnny Vodka (Sep 29, 2021)

Christ, watching clips on ch4 news.  Even worse than I imagined.


----------



## philosophical (Sep 29, 2021)

Starmer said one thing, insignificant to many and probably overlooked, that actually had meaning for me and was recognition of my lifetime of work that others would like to diminish or dismiss. It is the first time ever I have heard a leading politician say it so specifically and I felt surprisingly moved.
It was when he was talking about education and wanting young people to be creative, cooperative, communicative and well  rounded and he mentioned my specialism in terms of it’s educational value.
I am retired from the field now, but hearing it gave me a lift, and some hope.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 29, 2021)

Chakrabortty in the Guardian makes this useful observation:



> At times today, it felt as though we were sitting through the best speech ever delivered by the head of the Crown Prosecution Service. But a politician’s speech, reading the mood of the moment or weaving his own story into that of the country? Not that.


----------



## PR1Berske (Sep 29, 2021)




----------



## ska invita (Sep 29, 2021)

I can see why someone advising Starmer thought CRIME was a good thing to run with and stick front and centre, because Starmer is a natural cop at heart, so at least it has a ring of honesty about it, but its so out of step with the mood of the country - I cant imagine even swing seat daily mail readers currently have Crime anywhere near the top of their priorities.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 29, 2021)

It was all that "beauty" in the "dignity of labour" crap that made me want to vomit; talk about out of touch.


----------



## MickiQ (Sep 29, 2021)

I have this mental vision of Boris watching the Labour Party conference on the Tv whilst cacklingly evilly and stroking a cat


----------



## Quote (Sep 29, 2021)

brogdale said:


> It was all that "beauty" in the "dignity of labour" crap that made me want to vomit; talk about out of touch.



Some Red Wall pensioner who retired early with their own home and healthy pension probably mentioned it in a focus group. You'd get a different response from a younger person facing a life of renting, precarity and joyless low wage toil ahead of them.

EDIT: precarity, not peculiarity - damn auto correct


----------



## ska invita (Sep 29, 2021)

brogdale said:


> It was all that "beauty" in the "dignity of labour" crap that made me want to vomit; talk about out of touch.


i know what you mean - it did make me wonder how many people could relate to that - fair enough if youre skilled at a craft and living off it, great, but most people do their work with degrees of reluctance


----------



## killer b (Sep 29, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> I have this mental vision of Boris watching the Labour Party conference on the Tv whilst cacklingly evilly and stroking a cat


why would he bother?


----------



## MickiQ (Sep 29, 2021)

killer b said:


> why would he bother?


That's a good question they're hardly a threat to him.


----------



## two sheds (Sep 29, 2021)

Fraud, bribery, breaking contract law, criminal negligence in government ... all those crime persuits I'd get behind


----------



## nottsgirl (Sep 29, 2021)

Just listening to a bit of his speech on the news. Now that’s a man who hates his job.

Are Labour just going to carry on like this, essentially 2 parties? Always winter, never Christmas? Mind you, I remember last Christmas and look where that ended up.


----------



## nottsgirl (Sep 29, 2021)

I used to believe in a pragmatic electoral route to a better world but I think Kier Starmer might be the final nail in the coffin for me.


----------



## elbows (Sep 29, 2021)

I'm too tired to evaluate this review but its probably got some things right.









						Now we know: Keir Starmer won’t generate a surge of support
					

He can’t be written off yet. But this was not the speech of a politician reading the national mood, says Guardian columnist Aditya Chakrabortty




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## nosos (Sep 29, 2021)

"At times today, it felt as though we were sitting through the best speech ever delivered by the head of the Crown Prosecution Service"


----------



## Humberto (Sep 29, 2021)

It sounded ok. A bit meek. Infighting? Would need to stamp that out somehow. Needs to energise the young perhaps. And show a committed pro working class agenda.


----------



## elbows (Sep 29, 2021)

nosos said:


> "At times today, it felt as though we were sitting through the best speech ever delivered by the head of the Crown Prosecution Service"



Yeah that line is what pushed me to post that link despite being too tired to think properly.


----------



## Elpenor (Sep 30, 2021)

Just seen a few clips. It reminded me of this gem of a quote from another charismatic opposition leader in the past. 



> Do not underestimate the determination of a quiet man


----------



## two sheds (Sep 30, 2021)

Elpenor said:


> Just seen a few clips. It reminded me of this gem of a quote from another charismatic opposition leader in the past.


Don't tell me don't tell me  ..... Jimmy Stewart


----------



## PR1Berske (Sep 30, 2021)

Elpenor said:


> Just seen a few clips. It reminded me of this gem of a quote from another charismatic opposition leader in the past.


Who also came up with "the quiet man is here to stay and is turning up the volume"


----------



## Humberto (Sep 30, 2021)

He doesn't think Boris is a bad guy. If he gets in it will be, 'here is more draconian police state and austerity which you voted for you cunts'.


----------



## Raheem (Sep 30, 2021)

PR1Berske said:


> Who also came up with "the quiet man is here to stay and is turning up the volume"


It was the guy who went on to write Downton Abbey, trivia fans.


----------



## imposs1904 (Sep 30, 2021)

Sue said:


> Makes me think of Someone to Watch Over Me (song) - Wikipedia
> 
> There's a somebody I'm longing to see
> I hope that she turns out to be
> ...



Beautiful song. Especially Ella Fitzgerald's version.


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Sep 30, 2021)

brogdale said:


> I'm looking forward to this bit..
> 
> _Fourthly, I shall tell you again what you know.  Because you are from the people, because you are of the people, because you live with the same realities as everybody else lives with, implausible promises don’t win victories.  I’ll tell you what happens with impossible promises.  You start with far-fetched resolutions.  They are then pickled into a rigid dogma, a code, and you go through the years sticking to that, out-dated, mis-placed, irrelevant to the real needs, and you end up in the grotesque chaos of a Labour council hiring taxis to scuttle round a city handing out redundancy notices to its own workers._


Lord Kinnock…scum


----------



## SpookyFrank (Sep 30, 2021)

ska invita said:


> i know what you mean - it did make me wonder how many people could relate to that - fair enough if youre skilled at a craft and living off it, great, but most people do their work with degrees of reluctance



Any actually useful job tends to be either criminally underpaid, have ruinous workloads or both. The office drones would probably rise up in rebellion if it were otherwise.


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Sep 30, 2021)

The only thing he got really passionate about was dissing the Left…and the cynicism of using the parents of murder victims to pretend he cares shows he will wallow in the gutter enthusiastically. Tony Blair without the charisma.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Sep 30, 2021)

Humberto said:


> He doesn't think Boris is a bad guy. If he gets in it will be, 'here is more draconian police state and austerity which you voted for you cunts'.



Law and order for the plebs. Tories are ruling class though so their corruption and criminality must all be for our own good in ways we're too dull to understand.


----------



## Mr Moose (Sep 30, 2021)

There wasn’t necessarily a big problem with his speech. Electoral politics is a queasy popularity contest where it’s hard to guess what weird shit people will connect to.

The problem is that none of it dispels the feeling that he’s not honest.


----------



## kabbes (Sep 30, 2021)

Well he certainly isn’t doing well in the popularity contest stakes









						Keir Starmer popularity & fame | YouGov
					

Keir Starmer is the 8th most popular Labour politician and the 17th most popular politician & political figure. Explore the latest YouGov polling, survey results and articles about Keir Starmer.




					yougov.co.uk
				






Lower in the rankings than both Theresa May and Dominic Raab.  Now that’s impressive.

Still, he beats Dennis Skinner — a politician that retired 2 years ago.


----------



## kabbes (Sep 30, 2021)

Lol.  The most popular “Labour politicians” are Ed Balls followed by Gordon Brown.  Now there’s the saddest indictment of all — much more cutting than any insult I could come up with.

Kieth is less popular than John Majors.


----------



## maomao (Sep 30, 2021)

kabbes said:


> Lol.  The most popular “Labour politicians” are Ed Balls followed by Gordon Brown.  Now there’s the saddest indictment of all — much more cutting than any insult I could come up with.


Ed Balls is most popular cause he was on Strictly. Watch out for Starmer on Dancing on Ice next year. Easier than having policies.


----------



## kabbes (Sep 30, 2021)

Sums it up.  A small number of people place him slightly left of centre, a smaller number think slightly right of centre and a smaller number still place him in the centre.  But by far the most popular response is “don’t know”.


----------



## killer b (Sep 30, 2021)

kabbes said:


> Lol.  The most popular “Labour politicians” are Ed Balls followed by Gordon Brown.  Now there’s the saddest indictment of all — much more cutting than any insult I could come up with.


Balls was very unpopular when he was an active politician, his popularity is entirely down to his run on Strictly. 

TBH I'm not sure these popularity rankings really tell us much about most opposition politicians: other than the leader of the party, most Labour MPs are pretty obscure - the rankings are as much about have you even heard of them as anything, and their obscurity is down to them not being in power, not any particular lack of character on their part (though they are mostly lacking in character tbf). 

Burnham is only where he is because of the fight he had with the government last year, no other reason.


----------



## kabbes (Sep 30, 2021)

Sorry for the spam posts but I can’t resist one more.  Things liked by the people that like Kieth:



Caeleb Dressel, Magnolia Table Volume 2 and Swindon.


----------



## maomao (Sep 30, 2021)

Jeremy Corbyn third on the list. I bet that doesn't work the other way round.


----------



## maomao (Sep 30, 2021)




----------



## kabbes (Sep 30, 2021)

To be fair, I like Jeremy Corbyn and I also think that Nonce Andrew is doing an _excellent_ job as a royal.


----------



## killer b (Sep 30, 2021)

What kind of freak 'likes' Ivan Lewis, a politician who's only appearance in the public consciousness is due to his rep as a creep?


----------



## kabbes (Sep 30, 2021)

killer b said:


> What kind of freak 'likes' Ivan Lewis, a politician who's only appearance in the public consciousness is due to his rep as a creep?


Other creeps?

ETA: to be fair, he is the rare example of a politician with a positive approval rating.



5% like him whilst only 3% dislike him.


----------



## maomao (Sep 30, 2021)

killer b said:


> What kind of freak 'likes' Ivan Lewis, a politician who's only appearance in the public consciousness is due to his rep as a creep?


The same kind of freak that likes Starmer, obviously.


----------



## Sprocket. (Sep 30, 2021)

killer b said:


> Burnham is only where he is because of the fight he had with the government last year, no other reason.


On the whole perhaps someone from the party in opposition, actually putting up a fight against the government for a change is an acceptable reason to be popular.


----------



## Johnny Vodka (Sep 30, 2021)

kabbes said:


> Sorry for the spam posts but I can’t resist one more.  Things liked by the people that like Kieth:
> 
> View attachment 290679
> 
> Caeleb Dressel, Magnolia Table Volume 2 and Swindon.



What happens in Swindon then?


----------



## kabbes (Sep 30, 2021)

Johnny Vodka said:


> What happens in Swindon then?


With any luck, it stays in Swindon.


----------



## killer b (Sep 30, 2021)

Sprocket. said:


> On the whole perhaps someone from the party in opposition, actually putting up a fight against the government for a change is an acceptable reason to be popular.


Sure it is - although this didn't seem to work out so well for Jeremy Corbyn in the end.


----------



## kabbes (Sep 30, 2021)

killer b said:


> Sure it is - although this didn't seem to work out so well for Jeremy Corbyn in the end.


He came as close to winning as anyone since Blair


----------



## killer b (Sep 30, 2021)

kabbes said:


> He came as close to winning as anyone since Blair


yeah and he was destroyed for it


----------



## tommers (Sep 30, 2021)

can one of you change your icon please?


----------



## killer b (Sep 30, 2021)

tommers said:


> can one of you change your icon please?


we don't have icons, you're seeing what the board software imposes on us. use the 'no avatars' skin if it's annoying you.


----------



## Serene (Sep 30, 2021)

Starmer isnt exactly ripping up trees to get in the media, creating an excitement vibe for the labour party, I cant recall him, even, ever breaking his countenance with a smile. Where is his enthusiasm for giving the Labour party an eyebrow raising hype? He is supposed to be giving Labour an intensive publicity boost. When has he done that? Is he a cardboard cut out? Why isnt he creating a buzz among the voters with zest and energy?


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Sep 30, 2021)

What gets me about all party conferences is the party leader's speech at the end, the (mostly) adoring adulation of the audience, the rapt attention from all those on the podium, the standing ovation. Then in the media the commentators predictably roll out their predictable opinions.

None of this stuff has any bearing on reality, on people's lives, on party policies, on anything very much. So why spend any time on it? I'm doing it too. Weird.


----------



## Serene (Sep 30, 2021)

Does anyone remember what the Labour Party`s leaders name is? I cant remember it.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Sep 30, 2021)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> What gets me about all party conferences is the party leader's speech at the end, the (mostly) adoring adulation of the audience, the rapt attention from all those on the podium, the standing ovation. Then in the media the commentators predictably roll out their predictable opinions.
> 
> None of this stuff has any bearing on reality, on people's lives, on party policies, on anything very much. So why spend any time on it? I'm doing it too. Weird.



It's important to the system we have that politics is seen to be done isn't it. Party conferences are part of the theatre of 'democracy'.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Sep 30, 2021)

kabbes said:


> With any luck, it stays in Swindon.



"To the Swindon lot. I didn't want you here, but you're here now. So, you know, well done. Welcome."


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Sep 30, 2021)

Serene said:


> Does anyone remember what the Labour Party`s leaders name is? I cant remember it.



Suity McSuitface


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 30, 2021)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> What gets me about all party conferences is the party leader's speech at the end, the (mostly) adoring adulation of the audience, the rapt attention from all those on the podium, the standing ovation. Then in the media the commentators predictably roll out their predictable opinions.
> 
> None of this stuff has any bearing on reality, on people's lives, on party policies, on anything very much. So why spend any time on it? I'm doing it too. Weird.


I still remember the good old days when certain posters were hoping for big things from Anarchists for Labour


----------



## steveseagull (Sep 30, 2021)

Conference bounce


----------



## Kaka Tim (Sep 30, 2021)

steveseagull said:


> Conference bounce



Feel the electability.


----------



## killer b (Sep 30, 2021)

What's most interesting about that poll is that the fuel crisis of this week has had zero impact on the Tory numbers


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Sep 30, 2021)

killer b said:


> What's most interesting about that poll is that the fuel crisis of this week has had zero impact on the Tory numbers


Some people only get their opinions delivered by HGV, so there's an increasingly long lead time right now.


----------



## Rimbaud (Sep 30, 2021)

steveseagull said:


> Conference bounce




Labour could win by winning over Green and SNP voters, but God forbid they ever consider losing votes to anyone but the Tories a problem that needs to be solved.

I predict Greens will be on 15% and winning MPs in Sheffield and Bristol with Labour reduced to 25% vote share by the next election.


----------



## Johnny Vodka (Sep 30, 2021)

Rimbaud said:


> Labour could win by winning over Green and SNP voters, but God forbid they ever consider losing votes to anyone but the Tories a problem that needs to be solved.



Unlikely. Apart from independence, the SNP and Scottish Greens have the courage to explore policies/ideas like drug law reform and the four day week (to name a couple of things off the top of my head that will terrify Daily Mail readers).  Starmer will never go for that sort of thing.  Plus I suspect many Green voters think only Green parties take the environmental and climate issues seriously enough.


----------



## Sue (Sep 30, 2021)

Rimbaud said:


> Labour could win by winning over Green and SNP voters, but God forbid they ever consider losing votes to anyone but the Tories a problem that needs to be solved.



None of the ex-Labour* voters I know in Scotland are going back. And even if they were thinking about it, Sarwar and Starmer would be enough to put them right off.

*Most people I know.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Sep 30, 2021)

killer b said:


> What's most interesting about that poll is that the fuel crisis of this week has had zero impact on the Tory numbers



Hey, if a whole catalogue of criminal negligence hasn't bothered them in the past, why should they start to give a shit now?


----------



## belboid (Sep 30, 2021)

Rimbaud said:


> I predict Greens will be on 15% and winning MPs in Sheffield


oooh, how much do you fancy betting?

(There is almost 0 chance of a green mp here, the one seat they had hoped for saw a big swing against in ‘17 and a minuscule improvement in ‘19)


----------



## Rimbaud (Sep 30, 2021)

belboid said:


> oooh, how much do you fancy betting?
> 
> (There is almost 0 chance of a green mp here, the one seat they had hoped for saw a big swing against in ‘17 and a minuscule improvement in ‘19)



I'm not gonna put any money on it lol.

I'm just going by their success in local council elections in Bristol and Sheffield, which might indicate that those are the most likely spots for a breakthrough. 

Greens are best positioned to benefit from Labour losing its younger members. IIRC Greens were doing pretty well pre-Corbyn, but under Corbyn a lot of their voters went over to Labour, so I don't think 2017 and 2019 are good indicators.

Sheffield and Bristol Greens seem to be the strongest outside of Brighton, if they benefit from an influx of Labour activists, some Black Swan environmental disaster which is frankly more likely than not before the next election, and put forward an energetic campaign, they could see a breakthrough.


----------



## chilango (Sep 30, 2021)

Rimbaud said:


> I'm not gonna put any money on it lol.
> 
> I'm just going by their success in local council elections in Bristol and Sheffield, which might indicate that those are the most likely spots for a breakthrough.
> 
> ...



I dunno about any of that, but I can see the Green vote costing Labour Reading East for sure.


----------



## elbows (Sep 30, 2021)

If a big chunk of the populations and/or the press seized on his 'tool' gimmick that ran through yesterdays speech then I would probably indulge in an ongoing series of bad jokes ("he'll need a winter tool allowance to survive") but since that is not the case you'll only have to suffer a few posts from me on this before I down tools.


----------



## Shellee (Sep 30, 2021)

Please excuse me being a light weight for a mo. But I had a brainwave while I was watching him as to how he could improve his celeb appeal. I think he should shave his head, or a least have a really, really sort cut. He would look quite hard and losing that square headed “nice” boy hair do would boost his image a lot, tough enough to take on Johnson and stop being a nice boy


----------



## elbows (Sep 30, 2021)

How about a mohawk to demonstrate his centre-ground credentials?

How about a Tony Blaircut like mine? Tony Blair doesnt have his hair cut like yours. He does if he comes here. Time for a sharp Brexit, time for a cool sharp harp.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 30, 2021)

elbows said:


> How about a mohawk to demonstrate his centre-ground credentials?
> 
> How about a Tony Blaircut like mine? Tony Blair doesnt have his hair cut like yours. He does if he comes here. Time for a sharp Brexit, time for a cool sharp harp.


harp stays sharp to the bottom of the glass


Spoiler


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 30, 2021)

Shellee said:


> Please excuse me being a light weight for a mo. But I had a brainwave while I was watching him as to how he could improve his celeb appeal. I think he should shave his head, or a least have a really, really sort cut. He would look quite hard and losing that square headed “nice” boy hair do would boost his image a lot, tough enough to take on Johnson and stop being a nice boy


he could retire into private life and then in years to come people will say how he acted in the best interests of party and country


----------



## brogdale (Sep 30, 2021)

In the same vein as "a dumb person's idea of a smart person", Starmer represents the party selectorate's misinterpretation of what 'electability' looks like to voters.
​


----------



## brogdale (Sep 30, 2021)

Kaka Tim said:


> Feel the electability.


sub 32%


----------



## Brainaddict (Sep 30, 2021)

killer b said:


> What's most interesting about that poll is that the fuel crisis of this week has had zero impact on the Tory numbers


One theory is that Remainers are not getting the effect they think they can get when they blame something like the truck driver shortage on Brexit. People who hate Brexit already hate Johnson so their opinions don't change. People who like Brexit may either think the Remoaners are trying it on again, or they may well interpret the truck driver shortage as being due to Brexit - but they are invested enough in it now through the polarisation process that has gone on that they just think 'Oh well, I guess that's part of the temporary pain of separation from the EU, it can't really be laid at Johnson's door then'.  So Johnson never actually suffers from things being blamed on Brexit.

Very occasionally someone tries to bring in some nuance by saying a softer Brexit was possible in which a lot of these problems would never have occurred - and if you could get this to stick you might be able to blame more on Johnson - but it mostly gets drowned out by hard pro or hard anti.


----------



## Dogsauce (Sep 30, 2021)

Brainaddict said:


> One theory is that Remainers are not getting the effect they think they can get when they blame something like the truck driver shortage on Brexit. People who hate Brexit already hate Johnson so their opinions don't change. People who like Brexit may either think the Remoaners are trying it on again, or they may well interpret the truck driver shortage as being due to Brexit - but they are invested enough in it now through the polarisation process that has gone on that they just think 'Oh well, I guess that's part of the temporary pain of separation from the EU, it can't really be laid at Johnson's door then'.  So Johnson never actually suffers from things being blamed on Brexit.
> 
> Very occasionally someone tries to bring in some nuance by saying a softer Brexit was possible in which a lot of these problems would never have occurred - and if you could get this to stick you might be able to blame more on Johnson - but it mostly gets drowned out by hard pro or hard anti.


I was thinking similar earlier - blaming these issues on Brexit means that supporters of Brexit will downplay or defend the situation because it’s an attack on their ‘side’ - probably more useful to blame it on an incompetent government and it won’t be seen as personal.


----------



## two sheds (Sep 30, 2021)

Dogsauce said:


> I was thinking similar earlier - blaming these issues on Brexit means that supporters of Brexit will downplay or defend the situation because it’s an attack on their ‘side’ - probably more useful to blame it on an incompetent government and it won’t be seen as personal.


and it's actually correct


----------



## SpookyFrank (Sep 30, 2021)

killer b said:


> What's most interesting about that poll is that the fuel crisis of this week has had zero impact on the Tory numbers



Add to the list of fuck ups that haven't put a dent in their poll numbers. They've killed 150,000 people with barely a fucking blip.


----------



## killer b (Sep 30, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Add to the list of fuck ups that haven't put a dent in their poll numbers. They've killed 150,000 people with barely a fucking blip.


sure, but that's just dead people. getting between a man and his motor is usually much more of a problem. 

look what happened last time there was a fuel crisis:


----------



## nogojones (Sep 30, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Add to the list of fuck ups that haven't put a dent in their poll numbers. They've killed 150,000 people with barely a fucking blip.


The dead don't vote labour


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Sep 30, 2021)

nogojones said:


> The dead don't vote labour


They used to vote all kinds of ways in Northern Ireland.


----------



## andysays (Sep 30, 2021)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> They used to vote all kinds of ways in Northern Ireland.


But not Labour


----------



## steveseagull (Sep 30, 2021)

Can't say there is much I disagree with here









						Breaking promises won't get Keir Starmer into power | Owen Jones
					

The comparisons with Blair are wrong: the architects of New Labour were actually effective political strategists, says Guardian columnist Owen Jones




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## SpookyFrank (Sep 30, 2021)

nogojones said:


> The dead don't vote labour



They're not the only ones apparently.


----------



## steveseagull (Sep 30, 2021)

Another conference bounce


----------



## steveseagull (Sep 30, 2021)

How long can this go on? Even the soft left must be worrying about their seats now.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Sep 30, 2021)

steveseagull said:


> How long can this go on? Even the soft left must be worrying about their seats now.



These days it's standard practice for people in public office to drag themselves on for at least eighteen months after the point where their position officially became untenable. He'll go before the next election but not before he's made sure Labour are mathematically incapable of winning it.


----------



## gosub (Sep 30, 2021)

Brainaddict said:


> One theory is that Remainers are not getting the effect they think they can get when they blame something like the truck driver shortage on Brexit. People who hate Brexit already hate Johnson so their opinions don't change. People who like Brexit may either think the Remoaners are trying it on again, or they may well interpret the truck driver shortage as being due to Brexit - but they are invested enough in it now through the polarisation process that has gone on that they just think 'Oh well, I guess that's part of the temporary pain of separation from the EU, it can't really be laid at Johnson's door then'.  So Johnson never actually suffers from things being blamed on Brexit.
> 
> Very occasionally someone tries to bring in some nuance by saying a softer Brexit was possible in which a lot of these problems would never have occurred - and if you could get this to stick you might be able to blame more on Johnson - but it mostly gets drowned out by hard pro or hard anti.


85% Agree, but think you can't not go May what did you think you were doing? as well


----------



## maomao (Sep 30, 2021)

killer b said:


> look what happened last time there was a fuel crisis:


And that was with William fucking Hague as leader of the opposition.


----------



## Dogsauce (Sep 30, 2021)

I think the Labour conference has inadvertently been a useful distraction during a week where the government should have been getting a bit of heat over the fuel fiasco.


----------



## elbows (Sep 30, 2021)

Dogsauce said:


> I think the Labour conference has inadvertently been a useful distraction during a week where the government should have been getting a bit of heat over the fuel fiasco.



Tory conference soon so lets see how that collides with all the disruption.


----------



## Shechemite (Sep 30, 2021)

Soulless managerialism or lunatics. What a choice. What a party.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 30, 2021)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Soulless managerialism or lunatics. What a choice. What a party.


classic


----------



## elbows (Oct 1, 2021)

He quoted the wrong Auden poem, should have gone for this one:

The Unknown Citizen (To JS/07 M 378 This Marble Monument Is Erected by the State)

He was found by the Bureau of Statistics to be
One against whom there was no official complaint,
And all the reports on his conduct agree
That, in the modern sense of an old-fashioned word, he was a saint,
For in everything he did he served the Greater Community.
Except for the War till the day he retired
He worked in a factory and never got fired,
But satisfied his employers, Fudge Motors Inc.
Yet he wasn't a scab or odd in his views,
For his Union reports that he paid his dues,
(Our report on his Union shows it was sound)
And our Social Psychology workers found
That he was popular with his mates and liked a drink.
The Press are convinced that he bought a paper every day
And that his reactions to advertisements were normal in every way.
Policies taken out in his name prove that he was fully insured,
And his Health-card shows he was once in hospital but left it cured.
Both Producers Research and High-Grade Living declare
He was fully sensible to the advantages of the Instalment Plan
And had everything necessary to the Modern Man,
A phonograph, a radio, a car and a frigidaire.
Our researchers into Public Opinion are content
That he held the proper opinions for the time of year;
When there was peace, he was for peace: when there was war, he went.
He was married and added five children to the population,
Which our Eugenist says was the right number for a parent of his generation.
And our teachers report that he never interfered with their education.
Was he free? Was he happy? The question is absurd:
Had anything been wrong, we should certainly have heard.


----------



## elbows (Oct 1, 2021)

And then he could have left the stage to the following song instead of Fat Boy Slim.  Because the 2nd half of the song features the aforementioned poem.


----------



## elbows (Oct 1, 2021)

I also note the following is very much from the poem that he borrowed a line from:

You need not hear what orders he is giving
to know if someone has authority,

you have only to watch his mouth:
when a besieging general sees

a city wall breached by his troops,
when a bacteriologist

realizes in a flash what was wrong
with his hypothesis when,

from a glance at the jury, the prosecutor
knows the defendant will hang,

their lips and the lines around them
relax, assuming an expression

not of simple pleasure at getting
their own sweet way but of satisfaction

at being right, an incarnation
of Fortitudo, Justicia, Nous.

You may not like them much
(Who does?) but we owe them

basilicas, divas
dictionaries, pastoral verse,

the courtesies of the city:
without these judicial mouths

(which belong for the most part
to very great scoundrels)


----------



## Carvaged (Oct 1, 2021)

The average age of a Conservative voter is about 90 iirc. Which means they've already likely lost their driving licenses and will be lucky if they eat more than a few peas a day anyway, so crippling food price inflation and fuel shortages aren't likely to put a dent in their love for BoJo the Clown.


----------



## Elpenor (Oct 1, 2021)

Keir Starmer says James Bond should be played by a woman
					

Labour leader says it is ‘time’ for a female actor to play 007




					www.google.co.uk
				




“I don’t have a favourite Bond, but I do think it’s time for a female Bond."

The man can’t even answer a simple question about James Bond properly, all he can do is offer up a tired response.


----------



## elbows (Oct 1, 2021)

Elpenor said:


> Keir Starmer says James Bond should be played by a woman
> 
> 
> Labour leader says it is ‘time’ for a female actor to play 007
> ...



Daniel Craigs advice for the next person to play Bond when asked tedious questions about it by the media was "Dont be shit!". Advice that could also apply to the next leader of the Labour party.


----------



## Wilf (Oct 1, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> These days it's standard practice for people in public office to drag themselves on for at least eighteen months after the point where their position officially became untenable. He'll go before the next election but not before he's made sure Labour are mathematically incapable of winning it.


Agree with you about them dragging it on beyond the point there's no chance of winning. However I can't see kieth going before the next election.  At the moment there's no even vaguely coherent opposition to him from left or right or for that matter any kind of grouping plotting around an alternative figure.  Corbyn was an accidental victor and when it came to having a plan he went 'erm, social democracy, summat about 1945'?  The opposition to starmer isn't even that coherent.

Fwiw, I think the chances of Labour being replaced by the greens or anybody else as the centre left party of British politics are close to zero - the first past the post system.   Looked at the other way round, that means Labour's biggest problem is that it exists.  I have every expectation that after Labour is trimmed back even further at the next election, there'll be another leader talking about reconnecting with the voters, building trust or similar shite.  I don't look to electoral politics, but at the level of stopping the future being that boot on the human face, we may have to wait a bit.


----------



## kabbes (Oct 1, 2021)

The kabbess — not the closest observer of politics but a staunch left-winger in her heart — came home today and announced unprompted, “I really hate this Labour government”. When questioned what she meant, on the grounds that Labour aren’t actually _in_ government, she testily clarified that she just meant,”this current Labour lot” and really she meant Starmer in particular because, and I paraphrase, he has no heart and is just a Tory. So I guess he is steeping into the consciousness of non politics geeks.  But not in the way he might like.


----------



## steveseagull (Oct 1, 2021)

Most of my 'centrist' / 'politically sensible' / 'grown up politics' friends are starting to loathe him


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Oct 2, 2021)

ACG article on Starmer's speech and Labour:









						Labour pains - Anarchist Communist Group
					

Keir Starmer’s speech to Labour Party conference promised nothing to the working class and plenty to the bosses. Starmer went out of his way to show how friendly he was to business, at the same time briefing his shadow cabinet not to support a call for a £15 an hour minimum wage. He promised...




					www.anarchistcommunism.org


----------



## brogdale (Oct 2, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> ACG article on Starmer's speech and Labour:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's a sound analysis.
I see ACG are going with the line that Rod Starmer owned the (toolmaking) factory and it's a fair punt...but AFAIK I've never seen any definitive evidence that Starmer Snr did own the means of production. 

That said, I'm not sure how many "toolmakers" are significant benefactors of rather lovely little theatres like the Barn in Oxted.


----------



## Cid (Oct 2, 2021)

steveseagull said:


> Most of my 'centrist' / 'politically sensible' / 'grown up politics' friends are starting to loathe him



Likewise.


----------



## Cid (Oct 2, 2021)

Shellee said:


> Please excuse me being a light weight for a mo. But I had a brainwave while I was watching him as to how he could improve his celeb appeal. I think he should shave his head, or a least have a really, really sort cut. He would look quite hard and losing that square headed “nice” boy hair do would boost his image a lot, tough enough to take on Johnson and stop being a nice boy



Currently he looks like he should be hosting an alt-right podcast. Basically a slightly older Richard Spencer...


----------



## TopCat (Oct 2, 2021)

Carvaged said:


> The average age of a Conservative voter is about 90 iirc. Which means they've already likely lost their driving licenses and will be lucky if they eat more than a few peas a day anyway, so crippling food price inflation and fuel shortages aren't likely to put a dent in their love for BoJo the Clown.


Conservative party members are getting on a bit but the voters come in all ages.


----------



## Cid (Oct 2, 2021)

belboid said:


> oooh, how much do you fancy betting?
> 
> (There is almost 0 chance of a green mp here, the one seat they had hoped for saw a big swing against in ‘17 and a minuscule improvement in ‘19)



Central presumably? I think you're right... Probably see a substantial rebound, but the margin is so vast as to be basically insurmountable. I'm in Central and, assuming I'm still here (and Starmer is), am definitely not doing my usual nose-hold Labour come 2024. Possibly the Greens will get that.

Would put good odds on Lib Dems retaking Hallam, it was a gnat's fart it 2019. Although iirc he polls better among those fuckers. And Olivia Blake might get some loyalty from the student/former student vote I suppose.


----------



## steveseagull (Oct 3, 2021)

The Daily Mail are floating the rumour that three Labour MPs are planning on defecting to the Tories.

One obvious one would be Rosie Duffield I guess.

But I don't think there is any shortage of careerist Blairites with slim majorities who would sell their souls.

In further news, Keith has decided he is still not right wing enough so has written an article for the Sun.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 3, 2021)

Classic Crosby


----------



## Chilli.s (Oct 3, 2021)

steveseagull said:


> Labour MPs are planning on defecting to the Tories.


Hopefully sir keith


----------



## Dogsauce (Oct 3, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Conservative party members are getting on a bit but the voters come in all ages.


They‘ve long been losing the ground game, not having the foot soldiers to knock on doors etc.  Sadly now everything is done on the internet and the large sums of money rich people give them go a long way there.


----------



## lazythursday (Oct 3, 2021)

Dogsauce said:


> They‘ve long been losing the ground game, not having the foot soldiers to knock on doors etc.  Sadly now everything is done on the internet and the large sums of money rich people give them go a long way there.


Am sure it wouldn't be too hard to concoct some sort of panic over doorstep safety and privacy to bring in laws about cold calling that would neutralise Labour's advantage. Surprised it's not happened yet really.


----------



## Dogsauce (Oct 3, 2021)

lazythursday said:


> Am sure it wouldn't be too hard to concoct some sort of panic over doorstep safety and privacy to bring in laws about cold calling that would neutralise Labour's advantage. Surprised it's not happened yet really.


It’s no longer an advantage anyway, Labour had a huge ground game in 2017 but also lots of people sharing memes on Facebook, it came close so Facebook changed the algorithm to make sure it never happened again. Political parties have to sponsor such content now, so it goes to the highest bidder.


----------



## teqniq (Oct 3, 2021)

Starmer has written a piece for the Sun. Not a good look at all.


----------



## Raheem (Oct 3, 2021)

teqniq said:


> Starmer has written a piece for the Sun. Not a good look at all.


Will certainly make me think twice about buying the Sun.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 3, 2021)

teqniq said:


> Starmer has written a piece for the Sun. Not a good look at all.


TBF its no worse than writing for any other newspaper
The boycott the Sun thing is fair enough, but why stop there

devils advocate post


----------



## MrSki (Oct 3, 2021)

ska invita said:


> TBF its no worse than writing for any other newspaper
> The boycott the Sun thing is fair enough, but why stop there
> 
> devils advocate post


The Sun & Mail are utter shite but are the choices of the working class so if you want to try and get your message across...

Both papers are shite & I judge someone buying them.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 3, 2021)

MrSki said:


> The Sun & Mail are utter shite but are the choices of the working class so if you want to try and get your message across...
> 
> Both papers are shite & I judge someone buying them.


Yeh but it's much better to read something like the mail which you'll disagree with than sticking with things that you agree with. Especially when they're available for free online - so like you I judge people who buy the sun or the mail, but against rather different criteria than you do I think


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 3, 2021)

teqniq said:


> Starmer has written a piece for the Sun. Not a good look at all.


He'll not be asked to write another when they see what it does for their circulation


----------



## MrSki (Oct 3, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh but it's much better to read something like the mail which you'll disagree with than sticking with things that you agree with. Especially when they're available for free online - so like you I judge people who buy the sun or the mail, but against rather different criteria than you do I think


If I see someone buying the S*n or the hate mail I give them a tut but am willing to go all out if they object to said tut.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 3, 2021)

All the papers are shite. The sun crossed the line though.


----------



## teqniq (Oct 3, 2021)

teqniq said:


> Starmer has written a piece for the Sun. Not a good look at all.


This has gone down really well with some MPs:


----------



## ska invita (Oct 3, 2021)

Yeah my post was quite whataboutery.. ..there's a long-standing boycott  campaign, which changes the dynamic.


More important to me is what he wrote... If his piece says seize the means of production that's one thing, if it says there aren't enough police in the UK thats another.

What does it say broadly?


----------



## maomao (Oct 3, 2021)

The worst bit about the whole thing is the article itself 'I don't want people to have another Christmas spoiled by Boris Johnson's incompetence'. Just fuck off.

They also have an article about how his 'trump card' is his 'vibrant wife Victoria'. The one he's widely rumoured to be cheating on.


----------



## maomao (Oct 3, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Yeah my post was quite whataboutery.. ..there's a long-standing boycott  campaign, which changes the dynamic.
> 
> 
> More important to me is what he wrote... If his piece says seize the means of production that's one thing, if it says there aren't enough police in the UK thats another.
> ...


That Boris is spoiling Christmas and needs to let foreign workers in.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Oct 3, 2021)

MrSki said:


> The Sun & Mail are utter shite but are the choices of the working class



I think the average daily fail reader would be extremely offended to be described as 'working class'


----------



## teqniq (Oct 3, 2021)

ska invita Dunno. Don't read the Scum on general principles.


----------



## kabbes (Oct 3, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> I think the average daily fail reader would be extremely offended to be described as 'working class'


Yeah, according to the below, the readership is 62% ABC1. Also;

AT HOME​
Daily Mail readers have an average of £47,902 in savings and investments
Reader have over £22k more in savings and investments than the UK average
83% of Daily Mail readers are homeowners









						Daily Mail - Profile - Hurst Media Company
					

The UK’s highest circulated newspaper, overtaking the sun Fans describe it as: “Well written”, “Informative”, “Interesting” and “Intelligent”. Type Daily Newspaper Format Tabloid Founded 1896 Ownership Daily Mail Editor Geordie Grieg Political alignment Right-wing Readership Mon-Sat 965,667...




					www.hurstmediacompany.co.uk


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Oct 3, 2021)

Yep. And the majority of brexit voters in the referendum were middle class.


----------



## Elpenor (Oct 3, 2021)

maomao said:


> They also have an article about how his 'trump card' is his 'vibrant wife Victoria'. The one he's widely rumoured to be cheating on.


What is "vibrant" journalist shorthand for?


----------



## TopCat (Oct 3, 2021)

Elpenor said:


> What is "vibrant" journalist shorthand for?


Dealer


----------



## two sheds (Oct 3, 2021)

.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Oct 3, 2021)

Elpenor said:


> What is "vibrant" journalist shorthand for?



dunno.  i remember "flamboyant"...


----------



## two sheds (Oct 3, 2021)

fragrant?


----------



## kabbes (Oct 3, 2021)

showing appealing taste in men?


----------



## Elpenor (Oct 3, 2021)

I’ve only seen vibrant used to describe places. 

Having googled her I have learned she is of Jewish heritage and mainly wears sunglasses in photos. That’s not really how I’d define vibrant but perhaps the journo was fighting against a deadline


----------



## two sheds (Oct 3, 2021)

kabbes said:


> showing appealing taste in men?


autocorrect there?


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Oct 4, 2021)

from teh tweeter


----------



## gosub (Oct 4, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> from teh tweeter



Recycling slogans is environmentally friendly and in no way indicates stocks of slogans are running low.  Absolutely no need to panic


----------



## krtek a houby (Oct 4, 2021)

Lab/Con merger to be announced any day, now


----------



## Johnny Vodka (Oct 4, 2021)

The whole "don't buy The Sun" thing is to do with


Puddy_Tat said:


> from teh tweeter




But can he dance?


----------



## kabbes (Oct 4, 2021)

two sheds said:


> autocorrect there?


It was. It was supposed to be appalling!


----------



## brogdale (Oct 6, 2021)

Funny as...



_"any other leader would be..."_


----------



## brogdale (Oct 6, 2021)

followed by this...


----------



## gosub (Oct 6, 2021)

brogdale said:


> followed by this...
> 
> View attachment 291443


It's the Sturgeon  stat that's the worrying one there


----------



## brogdale (Oct 6, 2021)

gosub said:


> It's the Sturgeon  stat that's the worrying one there


Why's that?
Surely, English voters can hold positive feelings about someone hoping to break up the Union and without the obvious downsides of having to live under the Government she presently leads?


----------



## steveseagull (Oct 6, 2021)

Funny as fuck


----------



## Knotted (Oct 6, 2021)

To be fair, Corbyn being popular among people willing to vote for him isn't that surprising.


----------



## Serene (Oct 6, 2021)

When Starmer is forced to converse with a working class person he tricks them into thinking that he is just like them by asking what their opinion is, on whatever subject it is that is spoken, and for him to then say that it is also what he thinks.


----------



## MickiQ (Oct 6, 2021)

Considering which one of those  actually won an election, it does not inspire confidence in the ability of the Labour Party's current membership to pick a winner


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Oct 7, 2021)

Starmerite Revisionism fails to deliver.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Oct 7, 2021)

> REFUK: 4% (-)


I think the country is fucked enough already, thanks

Maybe the new socialist party to replace the pointless labour party should be UNFUK or DEFUK


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 7, 2021)

Serene said:


> When Starmer is forced to converse with a working class person he tricks them into thinking that he is just like them by asking what their opinion is, on whatever subject it is that is spoken, and for him to then say that it is also what he thinks.


i've seen him do that in parliament too, with boris johnson


----------



## Shechemite (Oct 7, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> I think the country is fucked enough already, thanks
> 
> Maybe the new socialist party to replace the pointless labour party should be UNFUK or DEFUK



the workers will free themselves from bondage by voting for the  British Democratic Socialist Movement


----------



## Lorca (Oct 7, 2021)

let's not get tied up in that....


----------



## Serge Forward (Oct 7, 2021)

That'd really give the boss class a thrashing.


----------



## Zapp Brannigan (Oct 7, 2021)

"What do we want?"

"BDSM!!!"

"When do we want it?"

"Whenever it pleases you most, Master/Mistress"


----------



## andysays (Oct 7, 2021)

MadeInBedlam said:


> the workers will free themselves from bondage by voting for the a British Democratic Socialist Movement


Workers of the world unite, you have nothing to lose but... 

...no, hang on, as you were...


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 7, 2021)

Here we have a Labour Shadow Minister echoing the thoughts of the Adam Smith Institute, and attacking worker wage rises. 

Unable to digest the lessons of the last period Labour’s position dooms it to the same fate as the lunatic remain fringe: both bound to dying neo-liberal orthodoxies. 

Perhaps the thread needs to be re-titled ‘Labour’s Time is Up’..


----------



## two sheds (Oct 7, 2021)

"a wage-price spiral ..."


----------



## magneze (Oct 8, 2021)

Depressing really. Johnson's high wage message is going to be quite simple and effective I think.









						Boris Johnson’s ‘high wage’ agenda is taking the wind out of Labour’s sails | Larry Elliott
					

The PM thinks his interventionist approach to the economy is a winning formula. Without a coherent opposition, he could be right, says Guardian columnist Larry Elliott




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 8, 2021)

As usual, Larry Elliot is right. Some of us have spent the last 5 years arguing “as Johnson is now doing – that leaving the EU presented an opportunity to restructure the economy and warned that if a party of the left did not make a positive case for change, then the vacuum would be filled by the right” and here we now are…


----------



## TopCat (Oct 8, 2021)

Kier could not have picked a more fucked strategy. Exploit foreign labour.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 8, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Kier could not have picked a more fucked strategy. Exploit foreign labour.


exploiting domestic labour not much better tbh


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 8, 2021)

magneze said:


> Depressing really. Johnson's high wage message is going to be quite simple and effective I think.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


it'd be more effective if i and other public sector workers saw some evidence that our wages might in fact rise


----------



## brogdale (Oct 8, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> it'd be more effective if i and other public sector workers saw some evidence that our wages might in fact rise


Indeed; not convinced it's such a masterclass in politicking to tell people they'll be better off when the evidence of their wallets will suggest otherwise.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 8, 2021)

Johnson's 'high wage economy' boasting is galling. It wasn't a planned, it was never mentioned in their election manifesto or economic planning. But, as is always the case with Johnson he's stupid but not that stupid to look a gift horse in the mouth. Leaving aside the disaster of Corbynism's capture by remain and the failure of the left to seize the opportunities presented by the vote, what's even more galling is that instead of learning lessons Labour is doubling down on its own vapid stupidity in response.

Labour could and should be welcoming the advent of the high wage economy but pointing out the flaws in the Tory version that they would rectify. It's fairly standard stuff - highlight that there is no evidence of the high wage economy for the state's own workers (as Pickman notes) with a public sector pay freeze affecting care workers for example and pledging a high wage economy in the public sector anchored by a national living wage of £15 an hour, note that a high wage economy needs sectoral collective bargaining across the economy that it would mandate, point to precarity and fire and re-hire as practices intolerable in a high wage economy and state it would outlaw them etc etc. Instead, it calls for more exploited labour. Pathetic.


----------



## magneze (Oct 8, 2021)

Exactly - the government could lead the way to a high wage economy by increasing the pay for underpaid public sector workers. It's not complicated to rebut Johnson but instead we have 'wage price spirals'.


----------



## Elpenor (Oct 8, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Kier could not have picked a more fucked strategy. Exploit foreign labour.


Traditional British Value that, the red wall will lap it up


----------



## TopCat (Oct 8, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> exploiting domestic labour not much better tbh


Domestic labour has a better chance of organising.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 8, 2021)

Elpenor said:


> Traditional British Value that, the red wall will lap it up



Whilst you meant to be ironic you are inadvertently correct. In ‘the red wall areas’ people are noticing wages going up in some sectors, they welcome it. They also increasingly wonder why wages are not going up in other sectors and, hopefully, this will feed into a dynamic, disputes and agitation more widely. You are also correct that - bar the Labour Party and middle class liberals - there is no support for more exploited labour from the poorest parts of the EU.


----------



## steveseagull (Oct 8, 2021)

Alan Partridge is cringing


----------



## steveseagull (Oct 8, 2021)

Oh dear


----------



## splonkydoo (Oct 8, 2021)

and then there's this: ‘Death of 1,000 cuts’: Kellogg’s workers on why they’re striking

About 1,400 Kellogg’s workers at four US plants have gone on strike after their current union contracts expired and amid accusations that the cereal giant is offshoring jobs.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 8, 2021)




----------



## Leighsw2 (Oct 8, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> ... Leaving aside the disaster of Corbynism's capture by remain and the failure of the left to seize the opportunities presented by the vote ...


Tend to agree, but I think Starmer's role was pretty central to Labour's Brexit disaster and it's high time he and his acolytes started taking some responsibility for it.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Oct 8, 2021)

Leighsw2 said:


> Tend to agree, but I think Starmer's role was pretty central to Labour's Brexit disaster and it's high time he and his acolytes started taking some responsibility for it.



do they see it as a disaster?  they stopped a corbyn government that might actually have done things that were vaguely socialist.  they will see having a tory government (albeit a blue one not a red one) as a better outcome.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 9, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> do they see it as a disaster?  they stopped a corbyn government that might actually have done things that were vaguely socialist.  they will see having a tory government (albeit a blue one not a red one) as a better outcome.


Depressing but true.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 9, 2021)

YG do need to update this graphic, (only goes to end August), but even so...it paints quite a bleak picture for Labour; the more people know of _Special K, _the less they approve:


----------



## steveseagull (Oct 11, 2021)

Keith has decided to start another legal war which he looks unlikely to win. This only brings back into focus the fact that he is covering up the Forde report due to it's horrific contents.


----------



## steveseagull (Oct 11, 2021)

Carter Ruck responds (PDF letter in the link)


----------



## splonkydoo (Oct 11, 2021)

Beginning to seriously think now that Keith is purposefully trying to bankrupt the party so that potential donors could have more pull.


----------



## two sheds (Oct 11, 2021)

I thought the suggestion in the press release was persuasive - that he's trying to get those five landed with Labour's costs in the court case against it.

Eta: may well help that result along though.


----------



## steveseagull (Oct 11, 2021)

two sheds said:


> I thought the suggestion in the press release was persuasive - that he's trying to get those five landed with Labour's costs in the court case against it.
> 
> Eta: may well help that result along though.



Course he is. Him and his regime are only interested in spiteful vindictive revenge on anyone associated with Corbyn. they do nto give a shit about the party or getting elected.


----------



## steveseagull (Oct 11, 2021)

Meanwhile, Jon Trickett is threatening to release his submission to the Forde Inquiry... which I suspect will start off an avalanche.


----------



## steveseagull (Oct 11, 2021)

Jesus... this resignation letter...









						Exclusive: Labour front-bencher’s CLP chair resigns over S*n column and assault on democracy
					

Bolton South East constituency party chair has resigned from the Labour party. Read his full resignation letter to Keir Starmer In August, Skwawkbox reported the motion against Keir Starmer’s…




					skwawkbox.org


----------



## killer b (Oct 11, 2021)

steveseagull said:


> Jesus... this resignation letter...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


it's pretty boring tbh, I didn't make it to the end. what's remarkable about it?


----------



## steveseagull (Oct 11, 2021)

killer b said:


> it's pretty boring tbh, I didn't make it to the end. what's remarkable about it?



The end bit. The bit you did not read.


----------



## belboid (Oct 11, 2021)

steveseagull said:


> The end bit. The bit you did not read.


*I shan’t sign off by wishing you luck in your objectives for the Labour Party because I do not wish you luck.  You will get what you deserve and that is to be moved to one side once you have done the dirty work and forever remembered as Captain Hindsight.*

Meh, he sounds a bit of an arse, tbh


----------



## killer b (Oct 11, 2021)

yeah that's shit too.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 11, 2021)

I don't think Starmer could even manage to get hindsight right tbf. His idol Blair certainly never has. He's probably still expecting Saddam's nukes to be found down the back of the sofa cushions any day now.


----------



## gosub (Oct 11, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> I don't think Starmer could even manage to get hindsight right tbf. His idol Blair certainly never has. He's probably still expecting Saddam's nukes to be found down the back of the sofa cushions any day now.



Looking at the Falklands thing last week, when Thatch got ambushed on Nationwide by a housewife. Thatcher ended up telling her you'll have to wait 30 years to find out but I'm right (turned out there was enough that came out under 30 years that she was order intercepts and relative positions of all vessels to a massive sand bank..)(not trying to continue that or derail this one).  More, watching her say that Nationwide, my first though was Blair and his if you knew what I knew..

..We 'll see, and that might be the really odd bit, he was first of t the younger PM's, the ones that must reasonably have expected to still be alive 30 years later


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 11, 2021)

gosub said:


> Looking at the Falklands thing last week, when Thatch got ambushed on Nationwide by a housewife. Thatcher ended up telling her you'll have to wait 30 years to find out but I'm right (turned out there was enough that came out under 30 years that she was order intercepts and relative positions of all vessels to a massive sand bank..)(not trying to continue that or derail this one).  More, watching her say that Nationwide, my first though was Blair and his if you knew what I knew..
> 
> ..We 'll see, and that might be the really odd bit, he was first of t the younger PM's, the ones that must reasonably have expected to still be alive 30 years later


Papers no longer kept secret for thirty years so they must not expect to live so long


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 11, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> You are also correct that - bar the Labour Party and middle class liberals - there is no support for more exploited labour from the poorest parts of the EU.



 The Brexit vote still rankles with people I know who are from other EU countries. They have got settled status. But the way they have been used in this debate makes them feel they are being blamed for taking jobs and undercutting wages in this country.


----------



## Raheem (Oct 11, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> The Brexit vote still rankles with people I know who are from other EU countries. They have got settled status. But they way they have been used used in this debate makes them feel they are being blamed for taking jobs and undercutting wages in this country.


Please reassure them that they are not being blamed as such, just implicated.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 12, 2021)

steveseagull said:


> Keith has decided to start another legal war which he looks unlikely to win. This only brings back into focus the fact that he is covering up the Forde report due to it's horrific contents.





Judge: So, you're suing these people for leaking a report?
Keith: Yes m'lud
Judge: And what's that you have there, is it the report of an extensive investigation into the aforesaid leak?
Keith: Yes m'lud
Judge: May I see it?
Keith: No.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 12, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> The Brexit vote still rankles with people I know who are from other EU countries. They have got settled status. But the way they have been used in this debate makes them feel they are being blamed for taking jobs and undercutting wages in this country.



No doubt. And Kenan Malik reminds us that the cause of low pay is capitalism and not people:









						Blame the erosion of trade union power, not migrants, for poor wages | Kenan Malik
					

If we really want a high-wage, high-skill economy, it’s time to go back to the future




					www.theguardian.com
				




However, the point I was making was a very specific one: the vapidity of Labour’s position on labour shortages which explicitly calls for the UK to tap into exploited labour


----------



## steveseagull (Oct 12, 2021)

Keith's problem today. The media is swamped with news of this damning report. Keith unquestionably supported the government all the way. No one mention that Corbyn called for a lock down earlier that would have saved thousands of lives.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 12, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> No doubt. And Kenan Malik reminds us that the cause of low pay is capitalism and not people:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, but in capitalist relations of production all labour is exploited. It doesn't seem unreasonable for any opposition to point out when a basic shortage of labour is threatening the ability to meet basic needs.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 12, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Yes, but in capitalist relations of production all labour is exploited. It doesn't seem unreasonable for any opposition to point out when a basic shortage of labour is threatening the ability to meet basic needs.



Seriously? How about calling for higher pay, better conditions, sectoral collective bargaining and planning for all workers instead?


----------



## brogdale (Oct 12, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Seriously? How about calling for higher pay, better conditions, sectoral collective bargaining and planning for all workers instead?


Why instead; surely both?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 12, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Why instead; surely both?



Labour aren't calling for both. They are calling for visas to be issued: no trade union protection, no guarantees on job security, no negotiated pay rates and a strategic return to surplus labour pools driven by the targeted exploitation of the poorest in Europe. It's the same position as the CBI position. So, no to 'both' on the terms that they would understand.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 12, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Labour aren't calling for both. They are calling for visas to be issued: no trade union protection, no guarantees on job security, no negotiated pay rates and a strategic return to surplus labour pools driven by the targeted exploitation of the poorest in Europe. It's the same position as the CBI position. So, no to 'both' on the terms that they would understand.


In fact it's a massive downgrade in terms of rights compared to prebrrxit


----------



## gosub (Oct 12, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Judge: So, you're suing these people for leaking a report?
> Keith: Yes m'lud
> Judge: And what's that you have there, is it the report of an extensive investigation into the aforesaid leak?
> Keith: Yes m'lud
> ...


As soon as its submitted as evidence its available as public record, which would sort of adds to the idea its a malicious persecution


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 12, 2021)

ska invita said:


> In fact it's a massive downgrade in terms of rights compared to prebrrxit



The halcyon days


----------



## brogdale (Oct 12, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Labour aren't calling for both. They are calling for visas to be issued: no trade union protection, no guarantees on job security, no negotiated pay rates and a strategic return to surplus labour pools driven by the targeted exploitation of the poorest in Europe. It's the same position as the CBI position. So, no to 'both' on the terms that they would understand.


Yes, they should be calling for both.


----------



## RileyOBlimey (Oct 12, 2021)

So, Rodney reckons Boris just needs to apologise. A quick “soz babes” and he’s good to go. Fuck the thousands that died needlessly.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 12, 2021)

gosub said:


> As soon as its submitted as evidence its available as public record, which would sort of adds to the idea its a malicious persecution



Not clear who is prosecuting who at this point. Seems like Milne and friends have lawyered up and threatened to sue for defamation, a case they'll win if Labour doesn't show their hand. Their hand has the Forde report in it. What Labour's game is naming these five people, and if they plan on taking legal action against any of them, I'm not sure.

This is all such a fucking mess.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 12, 2021)

RileyOBlimey said:


> So, Rodney reckons Boris just needs to apologise. A quick “soz babes” and he’s good to go. Fuck the thousands that died needlessly.




Law and order. Nick a bottle of water from a burning shop, go to prison. Do actual genocide, look at your shoes and promise not to do it again.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 12, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Not clear who is prosecuting who at this point. Seems like Milne and friends have lawyered up and threatened to sue for defamation, a case they'll win if Labour doesn't show their hand. Their hand has the Forde report in it. What Labour's game is naming these five people, and if they plan on taking legal action against any of them, I'm not sure.
> 
> This is all such a fucking mess.



I guess Starmer is overly used to thinking the lawyers always win - hes made career of it tbf


----------



## steveseagull (Oct 12, 2021)

They let him out to meet people again ffs


----------



## steveseagull (Oct 12, 2021)

The whole shambles here.



No wonder he hates Corbyn. He could go out and talk to lots of people without daft publicity stunts in hi viz.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 12, 2021)

steveseagull said:


> The whole shambles here.
> 
> 
> 
> No wonder he hates Corbyn. He could go out and talk to lots of people without daft publicity stunts in hi viz.



i expect there'll be a keyer stummer - there's no one dumber in a viz later this year


----------



## steveseagull (Oct 12, 2021)

I suspect those around him have advised him that people want to see him making a twat of himself in hi viz because Johnson does it. 

His walkarounds in the summer did not exactly go to plan as no one turned up to talk to him and he ended up getting slung out of a pub.

He needs to go back to being a lawyer or whatever he did before.


----------



## Chilli.s (Oct 12, 2021)

Fuckin Keith should apologise for being the wettest least effectual opposition that anyone can remember


----------



## elbows (Oct 12, 2021)

Sir Steer Calmer is used to failing the tests placed in front of him, or indeed behind him. Very good!


----------



## teqniq (Oct 12, 2021)

Fart in a trance.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Oct 12, 2021)

steveseagull said:


> The whole shambles here.
> 
> 
> 
> No wonder he hates Corbyn. He could go out and talk to lots of people without daft publicity stunts in hi viz.




This is what revisionist parking looks like

By contrast, Corbyn would've been hopping and doing doughnuts in that thing


----------



## magneze (Oct 12, 2021)

The instructor says "move to your left" and Keith promptly runs it over using a lorry going backwards.


----------



## gosub (Oct 12, 2021)

steveseagull said:


> The whole shambles here.
> 
> 
> 
> No wonder he hates Corbyn. He could go out and talk to lots of people without daft publicity stunts in hi viz.



Publicity stunt in a viz that meant somebody who actually does want a job had to wait for an instructor


----------



## hitmouse (Oct 12, 2021)

The cunt's enough of a menace to cyclists in his SUV, imagine what he'd do to Deliveroo riders if they let him have a lorry?


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 13, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> No doubt. And Kenan Malik reminds us that the cause of low pay is capitalism and not people:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I read that article before.

Your last sentence shows you don't get the point of it.

This is what you said in post 6044. What you're leaving out from this is any say for these EU workers. For example they didn't get a vote in the referendum. Despite like my partner being on the electoral roll and working here for some years. I know plenty of EU workers who've live here for five/ ten years before referendum. As exploited workers they should have had a say. Instead of being used as a political football by Brexit left and right.



> You are also correct that - bar the Labour Party and middle class liberals - there is no support for more exploited labour from the poorest parts of the EU.



Tbf I've been trying to avoid Brexit here recently. I thought on this thread at least it wouldn't come up.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 13, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> I read that article before.
> 
> Your last sentence shows you don't get the point of it.
> 
> ...



But we aren't talking about the referendum. Or Brexit for that matter. We are talking about Labour's response to the current labour shortages, on a thread about the leader.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 13, 2021)

Probably nothing we didn't already know, but interesting to see Barwell spell it out so starkly:


----------



## steveseagull (Oct 13, 2021)

With the Claudia Webbe verdict it looks like Keith may have another by-election to fuck up


----------



## steveseagull (Oct 15, 2021)

Absolute state of this. Looks like Corbyn may be readying himself to get in on the action as well. I do not blame him.









						Labour spending more on legal battles than campaigning, say sources
					

Exclusive: As action against ex-Corbyn staffers looms, falling membership is also hitting finances




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 15, 2021)

steveseagull said:


> Absolute state of this. Looks like Corbyn may be reading himself to get in on the action as well. I do not blame him.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



To be fair, the more campaigning Starmer does the less popular he gets. The sensible thing to do in that situation is to stop digging.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 16, 2021)

Finally Starmer in a comfortable walkabout situation


----------



## ska invita (Oct 20, 2021)

More details in the comments


----------



## steveseagull (Oct 20, 2021)

Never assume that the people calling themselves 'the adults' are serious people.



not forgetting:


----------



## Quote (Oct 20, 2021)

Obviously, the one man to actually increase Labour's vote this century was the problem. Utter deranged lunatics.


----------



## steveseagull (Oct 20, 2021)

At this stage, it has got to be said, Corbyn is living full time rent free in Starmer's head. Starmer clearly hates the fact the he has less charisma and he is less popular. It must be wrecking his head all day every day.


----------



## Elpenor (Oct 20, 2021)

Starmer closing in on Davey there


----------



## brogdale (Oct 21, 2021)

I know this is coming from Sky but, on the presumption that it's not totally fabricated, WTAF....


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Oct 21, 2021)

'Do fuck all, but do it better.'

Genius.


----------



## elbows (Oct 21, 2021)

They've not been impressive at all during the pandemic and in the vaccine era they got much, much worse. Nobody is looking to them to do the right thing at this stage.


----------



## Chilli.s (Oct 21, 2021)

nothing like opposition


----------



## Leighsw2 (Oct 21, 2021)

I actually think that it's his woeful performance on Covid (rather than the internal factional stuff) that will do for him. Has any Labour leader since Blair cost more lives?


----------



## Elpenor (Oct 21, 2021)

He’s preparing for being in government by simply agreeing with whatever the government do. 

Perhaps his renowned legal brain is on to something we can’t see.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 21, 2021)

He never seems at ease with himself.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 21, 2021)

TopCat said:


> He never seems at ease with himself.


shifty fucker for sure

a family man


----------



## elbows (Oct 21, 2021)

TopCat said:


> He never seems at ease with himself.



When he was described as looking like he had been tasered after a poor election result, I did think 'but he often looks like that!'

If he was in a film or tv programme where the audience was just waiting for half the characters to be killed off, he would be a strong candidate to be eaten by the blob quite early on.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 22, 2021)

Leighsw2 said:


> I actually think that it's his woeful performance on Covid (rather than the internal factional stuff) that will do for him. Has any Labour leader since Blair cost more lives?
> 
> Paul



I wouldn't separate the two tbh. Purging his party of leftists and alienating most of the membership is what he has been doing instead of opposing the government on covid. The root cause of both failures is the same, namely he's an establishment enforcer to his bones. Any actual politics he may have is at best window dressing.


----------



## Chilli.s (Oct 22, 2021)

Starmer is almost Johnson's yes man, I recon he's frightened of him


----------



## TopCat (Oct 22, 2021)

Chilli.s said:


> Starmer is almost Johnson's yes man, I recon he's frightened of him


He knows he has no charisma. Can you imagine Starmer telling a joke?


----------



## pesh (Oct 22, 2021)




----------



## Serene (Oct 22, 2021)

I apologise, but I still cant tell the difference between Starmer and a Tory. I have little doubt he wears pin striped suits, has gold cufflinks and drives a 1970`s Jag with leather seats and a walnut dashboard.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 22, 2021)

Chilli.s said:


> Starmer is almost Johnson's yes man, I recon he's frightened of him



Scholarship boy vs school bully init.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 22, 2021)

More and more of these weekly council by-elections suggest evidence of activist 'strike' or that those who have served in the ground war have left altogether.


----------



## teqniq (Oct 22, 2021)

Twat:









						Keir Starmer is against changing the law on illegal substances
					

Under the new plans, people caught with drugs like heroin and cocaine for personal use could be given a police warning instead of facing prosecution.




					www.dailyrecord.co.uk


----------



## TopCat (Oct 23, 2021)

teqniq said:


> Twat:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Fucking wanker.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 25, 2021)

Starmer's face (on GMB this am) when Madeley asked him if he'd given the left "a good kicking"...


----------



## BristolEcho (Oct 25, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Starmer's face (on GMB this am) when Madeley asked him if he'd given the left "a good kicking"...
> 
> View attachment 294133


That's disgusting language for Madely to use especially at a time like this.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 25, 2021)

Serene said:


> I apologise, but I still cant tell the difference between Starmer and a Tory. I have little doubt he wears pin striped suits, has gold cufflinks and drives a 1970`s Jag with leather seats and a walnut dashboard.


the difference is starmer sits on the opposition benches.

and he drives a 1950s jag





the paint on the p has been in the wars, it should of course be R for rodney. which is sir keithly's middle name, the plonker


----------



## PR1Berske (Oct 25, 2021)




----------



## Serge Forward (Oct 25, 2021)

BristolEcho said:


> That's disgusting language for Madely to use especially at a time like this.


Then again, Richard Madeley _is_ Alan Partridge.


----------



## agricola (Oct 25, 2021)

Serge Forward said:


> Then again, Richard Madeley _is_ Alan Partridge.



did Partridge ever get arrested for shoplifting?


----------



## Serge Forward (Oct 25, 2021)

I thought he did. Dunno if convicted though.


----------



## gosub (Oct 25, 2021)

BristolEcho said:


> That's disgusting language for Madely to use especially at a time like this.


7.50 am.

Don't have the telly on in morning , so no idea what passes for acceptable


----------



## BristolEcho (Oct 25, 2021)

gosub said:


> 7.50 am.
> 
> Don't have the telly on in morning , so no idea what passes for acceptable


A few Tories have been calling out people who are making genuine comments/criticisms of Tory policies saying they shouldn't be critical of Tories especially considering the recent murder. I've not really explained it well but I was being sarcastic in short.


----------



## steveseagull (Oct 26, 2021)

Could be another by-election for Keith to fuck up


----------



## belboid (Oct 26, 2021)

steveseagull said:


> Could be another by-election for Keith to fuck up



It has been a Tory seat since 1832, no one is going to change that.


----------



## steveseagull (Oct 26, 2021)

belboid said:


> It has been a Tory seat since 1832, no one is going to change that.



He can still lose another deposit


----------



## Artaxerxes (Oct 27, 2021)

Reports that Starmer has Covid


----------



## Steel Icarus (Oct 27, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Reports that Starmer has Covid


Still copying Johnson


----------



## BCBlues (Oct 27, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Reports that Starmer has Covid



Whole new meaning to the thread title


----------



## Badgers (Oct 27, 2021)

BCBlues said:


> Whole new meaning to the thread title


Oh well...


----------



## Knotted (Oct 27, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Reports that Starmer has Covid



He'll be treating the virus with constructive opposition.


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 27, 2021)

He's putting his immune system on notice that its got to get a grip


----------



## Sue (Oct 27, 2021)

DotCommunist said:


> He's putting his immune system on notice that its got to get a grip


A _forensic_ grip.


----------



## Serene (Oct 27, 2021)

He probably caught it in a " no, after you " loop  in Waitrose.


----------



## Zapp Brannigan (Oct 27, 2021)

His PCR test came back "abstained"


----------



## belboid (Oct 27, 2021)

I hear he was going to use hydroxychloroquine to expel the virus, but it threatened to sue so he changed his mind.


----------



## tim (Oct 27, 2021)

Cometh the hour, cometh back the man.


----------



## elbows (Oct 27, 2021)

Serves him right for his increasingly pathetic pandemic policy stance.


----------



## Chilli.s (Oct 27, 2021)

Not exactly going to be missed what with doing nothing of any importance


----------



## _Russ_ (Oct 27, 2021)

I havnt watched the commons sitcom for at  least a year...does Starmer wear a mask in there these day?,  I hope not otherwise the tory cunts will make use of that in their uniquely twisted way


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 27, 2021)

tim said:


> Cometh the hour, cometh back the man.



It's a desperate bid to make sir keithly look like a normal person


----------



## Johnny Vodka (Oct 27, 2021)

_Russ_ said:


> I havnt watched the commons sitcom for at  least a year...does Starmer wear a mask in there these day?,  I hope not otherwise the tory cunts will make use of that in their uniquely twisted way



He wears a mask, but we all know underneath he's a Tory.


----------



## elbows (Oct 27, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> It's a desperate bid to make sir keithly look like a normal person


I think this is the fifth time he has had to self-isolate, but the first time he actually tested positive himself.


----------



## Zapp Brannigan (Oct 27, 2021)

elbows said:


> I think this is the fifth time he has had to self-isolate, but the first time he actually tested positive himself.


Decisive at the 5th time of asking


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Oct 27, 2021)

elbows said:


> I think this is the fifth time he has had to self-isolate, but the first time he actually tested positive himself.



isn't that the first positive result he's had in anything since he became leader?


----------



## brogdale (Oct 27, 2021)




----------



## Serene (Nov 2, 2021)

Does anyone know any of Starmers policies? I cant think of any. Its a bit like watching Inspector Morse. He sits in his Jag with a blanc countenance and doesnt say a word for the whole program, and then the perpetrator hands himself / herself in at the end. Still without a word from Morse.
Who is the person to lead Labour. Angela Rayner?


----------



## brogdale (Nov 2, 2021)

Serene said:


> Does anyone know any of Starmers policies? I cant think of any. Its a bit like watching Inspector Morse. He sits in his Jag with a blanc countenance and doesnt say a word for the whole program, and then the perpetrator hands himself / herself in at the end. Still without a word from Morse.
> Who is the person to lead Labour. Angela Rayner?


He wants to reduce business rates.


----------



## Serene (Nov 2, 2021)

brogdale said:


> He wants to reduce business rates.


Well done. I cant name any. I suppose I should stick to putting rollers in. Is reducing business rates useful to us Proles?


----------



## ska invita (Nov 2, 2021)

brogdale said:


> He wants to reduce business rates.


and opposes a rise in corporation tax


----------



## Serene (Nov 2, 2021)

ska invita said:


> and opposes a rise in corporation tax


I am believing that he is a Tory. Labour has been usurped by a Tory.


----------



## Serene (Nov 2, 2021)

Starmer is supposed to let us all know when something is bóllócks, but nothing ever comes from his mouth.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Nov 2, 2021)

Serene said:


> Does anyone know any of Starmers policies?



the only thing i can remember him having an opinion on was that geronimo the alpaca must die

i'm hoping someone with an alpaca costume stands in his constituency next election ...

🦙


----------



## Serene (Nov 2, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> the only thing i can remember him having an opinion on was that geronimo the alpaca must die
> 
> i'm hoping someone with an alpaca costume stands in his constituency next election ...
> 
> 🦙


And he has the front to copy the Alpacas hairstyle.


----------



## two sheds (Nov 2, 2021)

reduce vat on fuel? which will save poor people about £1.50 per week per household.


----------



## glitch hiker (Nov 2, 2021)

Serene said:


> Does anyone know any of Starmers policies?


Lock up mean people on Twitter


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Nov 2, 2021)

Serene said:


> Who is the person to lead Labour. Angela Rayner?


Not that I really care about , or expect anything from, Labour, but Rayner has actually apologised 'unreservedly' for her tory scum comments :









						Angela Rayner 'unreservedly' apologises for Conservative 'scum' comments
					

Labour's deputy leader says she has reflected and will be "more careful" with her words in future.



					www.bbc.co.uk
				




The Tories deserve no such apology.


----------



## Serene (Nov 5, 2021)

Angela Rayner for the next Labour leader? She hates the Tories, she is genuine? An MP since 2015. Currently she is the Deputy Leader of the Opposition. She is learning the ropes. Is she the one to take over soon from the Alpaca for the next election?


----------



## TopCat (Nov 5, 2021)

Serene said:


> Angela Rayner for the next Labour leader? She hates the Tories, she is genuine? An MP since 2015. Currently she is the Deputy Leader of the Opposition. She is learning the ropes. Is she the one to take over soon from the Alpaca for the next election?


Purporting to hate the tories is far from enough. We all saw Labour don't actually hate the tories. Loads were happy to campaign alongside them to try and get a Remain in the EU referendum, holding hands they were.


----------



## Serene (Nov 5, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Purporting to hate the tories is far from enough. We all saw Labour don't actually hate the tories. Loads were happy to campaign alongside them to try and get a Remain in the EU referendum, holding hands they were.


To try and get a remain in the EU? A remain was wanted!


----------



## TopCat (Nov 5, 2021)

Serene said:


> To try and get a remain in the EU? A remain was wanted!


You should get a job at Labour HQ. Help them lose again and again....


----------



## Cerv (Nov 5, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Purporting to hate the tories is far from enough. We all saw Labour don't actually hate the tories. Loads were happy to campaign alongside them to try and get a Remain in the EU referendum, holding hands they were.


Loads were happy to campaign alongside them (Tories) to try and get a Leave result. 

Ignoring the ref entirely was only option to not campaign on same side as some tories, and that doesn’t seem viable really for a serious national level politician.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 5, 2021)

Cerv said:


> Loads were happy to campaign alongside them (Tories) to try and get a Leave result.
> 
> Ignoring the ref entirely was only option to not campaign on same side as some tories, and that doesn’t seem viable really for a serious national level politician.


They were not just on the same side they were alongside. There was no hate there and this remains.


----------



## Serene (Nov 5, 2021)

TopCat said:


> You should get a job at Labour HQ. Help them lose again and again....


What I am saying here, objectively, is that the Tories who campaigned alongside, and there were lots, were working with Labour, not the other way around, because the Tory majority wanted Brexit.
She definately is not a Tory, she called them scum. It says on her wiki that she is a socialist.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 5, 2021)

TopCat said:


> You should get a job at Labour HQ. Help them lose again and again....


To be fair they don't need much help


----------



## TopCat (Nov 5, 2021)

Serene said:


> What I am saying here, objectively, is that the Tories who campaigned alongside, and there were lots, were working with Labour, not the other way around, because the Tory majority wanted Brexit.


Why no the other  way around? Not a mutually beneficial relationship freely entered with convivial warmth apparent indeed palpable?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 5, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> Not that I really care about , or expect anything from, Labour, but Rayner has actually apologised 'unreservedly' for her tory scum comments :
> 
> 
> 
> ...


She should have apologised on the basis her comments didn't go far enough


----------



## Serene (Nov 5, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Why no the other  way around? Not a mutually beneficial relationship freely entered with convivial warmth apparent indeed palpable?


Not the other way around because the Tory majority wanted to leave the EU. Besides the EU vote can be disregarded as it wasnt a partisan type vote.


----------



## two sheds (Nov 5, 2021)

she could have used the traditional "lower than vermin" instead


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 5, 2021)

Serene said:


> Does anyone know any of Starmers policies?


His policy is to see what the Tories are doing and say we'd do the same only more nicely


----------



## two sheds (Nov 5, 2021)

and with a bit lower vat


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 5, 2021)

Serene said:


> Does anyone know any of Starmers policies? I cant think of any. Its a bit like watching Inspector Morse. He sits in his Jag with a blanc countenance and doesnt say a word for the whole program, and then the perpetrator hands himself / herself in at the end. Still without a word from Morse.
> Who is the person to lead Labour. Angela Rayner?


I don't think you've ever actually watched an episode of inspector morse


----------



## Serene (Nov 5, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> His policy is to see what the Tories are doing and say we'd do the same only more nicely


It would seem so. I cannot think of a single policy I can remember him ever talking about. His low charisma is such that he may as well be a carboard cutout of an Alpaca.


----------



## Serene (Nov 5, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> I don't think you've ever actually watched an episode of inspector morse


Oh, I did.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 5, 2021)

Serene said:


> Oh, I did.


Turn the sound up next time


----------



## PR1Berske (Nov 5, 2021)

Posted without comment


----------



## PR1Berske (Nov 5, 2021)

(I'm neutral on the post, just uploading it here for opinion /reaction)


----------



## Serene (Nov 5, 2021)

A leader has to have charisma and get people listening and raising eyebrows, get them talking. Pizzazz, almost. Starmer has none. Let Rayner have a go. To get in though, Labour cant be too far left, they need to be sorting some policies out.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Nov 5, 2021)

> Sir Keir’s second job income & donations.



not on the board of the british alpaca society, then?


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Nov 5, 2021)

Serene said:


> A leader has to have charisma and get people listening and raising eyebrows, get them talking. Pizzazz, almost. Starmer has none. Let Rayner have a go. To get in though, Labour cant be too far left, they need to be sorting some policies out.


If Rayner is giving away Pizzas she gets my vote.


----------



## Funky_monks (Nov 5, 2021)

PR1Berske said:


> Posted without comment



How did two tickets to the Challenge Cup manage to cost £618? 😂


----------



## Serene (Nov 5, 2021)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> If Rayner is giving away Pizzas she gets my vote.


Progress stopped with frozen Pizza. I have observed stonebaked ones in the Shop freezers, all the toppings are all together on one part of the Pizza, almost all pepperoni, stuck together, stacked up, and none on any of the rest of it, just stringy cheese. She could put a Universal credit benefit voucher for one free Pizza per week in the Labour Manifesto to get the vote of the huge population of weed smokers. ( btw I dont drink, smoke or do drugs ).


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Nov 5, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Purporting to hate the tories is far from enough. We all saw Labour don't actually hate the tories. Loads were happy to campaign alongside them to try and get a Remain in the EU referendum, holding hands they were.


It's also worth noting that Rayner abstained on voting on the Tory welfare bill in 2015, which led to cuts of £12 billion in social security spending, and cuts in child tax credits.


----------



## Serene (Nov 5, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> It's also worth noting that Rayner abstained on voting on the Tory welfare bill in 2015, which led to cuts of £12 billion in social security spending, and cuts in child tax credits.


What?!!


----------



## TopCat (Nov 5, 2021)

Serene said:


> What?!!


Harriet Harmans efforts wasn't it?


----------



## Serene (Nov 5, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Harriet Harmans efforts wasn't it?


 I cant think back that far. I cant remember 2 weeks ago.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 5, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> It's also worth noting that Rayner abstained on voting on the Tory welfare bill in 2015, which led to cuts of £12 billion in social security spending, and cuts in child tax credits.


A leftie but similarly empty version of Jess Phillips. Say scum and fuck the tories a lot at fringe rallies then shaft the working class and go to lunch.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 5, 2021)

Serene said:


> I cant think back that far. I cant remember 2 weeks ago.


Google will assist.


----------



## Serene (Nov 5, 2021)

TopCat said:


> A leftie but similarly empty version of Jess Phillips. Say scum and fuck the tories a lot at fringe rallies then shaft the working class and go to lunch.


I need to eat a Twirl after reading that. 😐


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Nov 5, 2021)

Serene said:


> What?!!


Here's the list. Rayner's name is there. And Andy Burnham, Lindsay Hoyle and Jo Cox :









						These are the 184 Labour MPs who didn’t vote against the Tories' welfare bill
					

The cuts include child tax credits and the household benefit cap




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## two sheds (Nov 5, 2021)

> Out of the four leadership candidates, Yvette Cooper, Andy Burnham, and Liz Kendall all abstained on the proposals. Jeremy Corbyn voted against.
> 
> Labour says it supports the benefit cap and cuts to mortgage support but not disability benefit cuts or the repeal of child poverty targets. Its amendment does not mention tax credit cuts.
> 
> Labour’s leadership recommended an abstention against the bill as a whole, though a group of 48 rebel MPs backed an alternative motion that wholly opposed the package.


----------



## Serene (Nov 5, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> Here's the list. Rayner's name is there. And Andy Burnham, Lindsay Hoyle and Jo Cox :
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This doesnt make sense. Any ideas?


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Nov 5, 2021)

Serene said:


> Progress stopped with frozen Pizza.


Completely agree with you


Serene said:


> ( btw I dont drink, smoke or do drugs ).


Here I think we will have to differ


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Nov 5, 2021)

Rayner also refused, more recently, to support the 12% pay increase for nurses, instead agreeing with the 2.1% increase proposed by the Tories.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Nov 5, 2021)

Serene said:


> This doesnt make sense. Any ideas?


Makes perfect sense to me. She's a red tory. They're all as good as tories if you ask me, which is why I don't go for parliamentary politics. It is nothing but theatre -  lies and corruption, and should be resisted.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 7, 2021)

Never watch the shite but, if this is a fair précis of what passed, I might just succumb on iplayer...


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 7, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Never watch the shite but, if this is a fair précis of what passed, I might just succumb on iplayer...




That picture alone is glorious. Look at Keith's miserable fucking mug.

The video's on youtube btw.


----------



## two sheds (Nov 7, 2021)

Doesn't seem to play? Or do you need to sign into twitter?


----------



## brogdale (Nov 7, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> That picture alone is glorious. Look at Keith's miserable fucking mug.


I've just started binge watching _Succession _so I'm well up for Logan's dressing down of Starmer!


----------



## brogdale (Nov 7, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Doesn't seem to play? Or do you need to sign into twitter?


I think it's a still.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 7, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Doesn't seem to play? Or do you need to sign into twitter?


----------



## PR1Berske (Nov 9, 2021)




----------



## Chilli.s (Nov 9, 2021)

Discussion not talks, always nice to see distinction made in a forensic manner by such an absolute expert


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 9, 2021)

Honestly he looks like he just cries himself to sleep every night. Surely he'd be much happier in some Nick Clegg-esque bullshit consultancy job for some evil corporation or other?


----------



## hitmouse (Nov 9, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> Here's the list. Rayner's name is there. And Andy Burnham, Lindsay Hoyle and Jo Cox :
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The other really big sickening vote was 2013, the workfare bill to retrospectively make what the tories were doing legal:








						Labour abstention on workfare bill prompts party infighting
					

Liam Byrne defends 'difficult' decision not to vote against government after resignation of shadow ministerial aide




					www.theguardian.com
				






			The Public Whip — Jobseekers (Back to Work Schemes) Bill — Third Reading - 19 Mar 2013  at 18:42
		


In all fairness to Rayner, she didn't abstain on that vote, although on the other hand she wasn't elected as an MP until two years later so can't really give her that much credit for it.


brogdale said:


> Never watch the shite but, if this is a fair précis of what passed, I might just succumb on iplayer...



Is this the fella that Viz loves who played keyboard on the New Labour song and then invented space or whatever, or is this a different Brian Cox?


----------



## brogdale (Nov 9, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Is this the fella that Viz loves who played keyboard on the New Labour song and then invented space or whatever, or is this a different Brian Cox?


Not looking after himself.


----------



## killer b (Nov 9, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Is this the fella that Viz loves who played keyboard on the New Labour song and then invented space or whatever, or is this a different Brian Cox?


the new labour victory of 1997 was brought about almost entirely by the efforts of various guys called Brian Cox, it turns out.


----------



## hitmouse (Nov 9, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Honestly he looks like he just cries himself to sleep every night. Surely he'd be much happier in some Nick Clegg-esque bullshit consultancy job for some evil corporation or other?


Christ, yeah, I don't watch clips of Starmzy all that often but he looks proper fucking devastated in those two. Poor bugger, it almost makes me want to ask him a question about the police to cheer him up.


----------



## gosub (Nov 9, 2021)

PR1Berske said:


> Posted without comment



Law, like medicine, is one of those professions  where there is a requirement to stay in recency in order to contiue practising it.

Beyond that, if there was any section of oir elected representatives I think we could do without, its PPE careerist party hacks rather than those with skills and knowledge drawn from experience in other sectors.


----------



## ruffneck23 (Nov 9, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Christ, yeah, I don't watch clips of Starmzy all that often but he looks proper fucking devastated in those two. Poor bugger, it almost makes me want to ask him a question about the police to cheer him up.


nah fuck him.


----------



## killer b (Nov 9, 2021)

gosub said:


> Beyond that, if there was any section of oir elected representatives I think we could do without, its PPE careerist party hacks rather than those with skills and knowledge drawn from experience in other sectors.


less lawyers too - something like 15% of parliament is made up of the fuckers.


----------



## rekil (Nov 9, 2021)

_fewer_ lawyers

/forensic


----------



## killer b (Nov 9, 2021)

rekil said:


> _fewer_ lawyers
> 
> /forensic


less is right. I was proposing cutting them off at the knees.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 10, 2021)

Interesting piece, given the circs.
Some choice vermin quotes as well.

Corbyn could rule on Starmer’s second job at Brexit law firm – LabourList


----------



## ruffneck23 (Nov 10, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Interesting piece, given the circs.
> Some choice vermin quotes as well.
> 
> Corbyn could rule on Starmer’s second job at Brexit law firm – LabourList




Hmm, things seem to be making a little more sense now, no wonder starmer seems to want to fuck the whole labour project up ( IMO only )


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 10, 2021)

ruffneck23 said:


> Hmm, things seem to be making a little more sense now, no wonder starmer seems to want to fuck the whole labour project up ( IMO only )



The whole labour project was fucked long before sir keithly came on the scene


----------



## brogdale (Nov 10, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> The whole labour project was fucked long before sir keithly came on the scene


Indeed; some might argue that KS is restoring the party to its historic trajectory and role.


----------



## elbows (Nov 10, 2021)

Corbyn did however fail to stop Sir Steer Calmer from getting a 2nd job guarding against the ghost of Tony Benn.


----------



## ruffneck23 (Nov 10, 2021)

Ha ! , I've been called a Tory mole, cos I tweeted Starmer asking if he had any conflicting interests.

I also offered a a slogan for him.

STOP THE CORRUPTION.


----------



## two sheds (Nov 10, 2021)

No better than the tories in answering questions then.


----------



## Serene (Nov 10, 2021)

Johnson has never answered or looked at any Emails.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Nov 10, 2021)

Solidarity with far right racist war criminals!


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Nov 10, 2021)

Well done to LSE students for driving this fascist murderer off campus!


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Nov 10, 2021)

Hotovely is such a far right extremist that even Melanie Philips condemns her! To think, just a few years ago, Labour stood in solidarity with the Palestinians, now under the revisionist Starmer clique they cheer on the fascist butchers who terrorize them.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 10, 2021)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Solidarity with far right racist war criminals!



A bit rich for someone to tweet something like that about the Zionist entity's ambassador


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 10, 2021)

ruffneck23 said:


> Ha ! , I've been called a Tory mole, cos I tweeted Starmer asking if he had any conflicting interests.
> 
> I also offered a a slogan for him.
> 
> STOP THE CORRUPTION.


He is a windbag


----------



## moochedit (Nov 11, 2021)

Some factional stuff going on in cov labour...









						Coventry MPs may face votes to remain Labour candidates
					

The two MPs are at risk of facing ballots that could see them deselected, the BBC understands.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## steveseagull (Nov 11, 2021)

moochedit said:


> Some factional stuff going on in cov labour...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I suspect it has been approved by the regime in charge.


----------



## moochedit (Nov 11, 2021)

steveseagull said:


> I suspect it has been approved by the regime in charge.


Yeah think you could be right there.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 11, 2021)

> No local councillors were on the party's shortlists in Coventry South, where Zarah Sultana is the MP, and Coventry North West, Taiwo Owatemi's constituency.



Dunno about Cov but in other parts of the country Labour PPC's were chosen via women only, BAME-only shortlists. It was one such that got Nadia Whittome selected in Nottingham I know that much.

Funny how CLPs never seem to get the chance to rebel against parachuted-in centrists though isn't it? Still, having talented, principled people like, um, Chris Leslie in the PLP is more important than what the grassroots want


----------



## Serene (Nov 17, 2021)

Is Starmer still the Labour leader? I havent heard of him for such a long time. I am sure he is being a real nuisance to the Tories though, as always. I expect he is flying banners by Airplane above London, promoting Labour, and doing all sorts of eye-opening stunts for the media to raise Labours voting base. So I shouldnt worry. Temps fugit, and all that.


----------



## magneze (Nov 17, 2021)

He's probably writing another 14,000 word essay.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 17, 2021)

magneze said:


> He's probably writing another 14,000 word essay.


"I'm sorry" repeated 7000 times


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Nov 17, 2021)

I suspect virtually nobody who condemned Corbyn for sharing a platform with bad person X will bat an eyelid over this.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 17, 2021)

Jeff Robinson said:


> I suspect virtually nobody who condemned Corbyn for sharing a platform with bad person X will bat an eyelid over this.



The two states presumably the UK and the Zionist entity


----------



## teqniq (Nov 17, 2021)

Serene said:


> Is Starmer still the Labour leader? I havent heard of him for such a long time. I am sure he is being a real nuisance to the Tories though, as always. I expect he is flying banners by Airplane above London, promoting Labour, and doing all sorts of eye-opening stunts for the media to raise Labours voting base. So I shouldnt worry. Temps fugit, and all that.


This is pretty dismal:









						IN FULL: Keir Starmer’s keynote speech to Labour Friends of Israel
					

'Labour does not - and will not - support BDS. Its principles are wrong – targeting alone the world’s sole Jewish state'




					jewishnews.timesofisrael.com


----------



## bellaozzydog (Nov 17, 2021)

How about that fucking speech aye


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Nov 17, 2021)

teqniq said:


> This is pretty dismal:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



'David warned of the danger of “treating Jewish fears about anti-Jewish sentiment as merely a device to muzzle criticism of Israel”.'

That's true enough, but its also true that linking a commitment to tackling anti-Jewish sentiment to the defence of Israel and Zionism, as Starmer and LFI do, undermines the fight against anti-Semitism. It's just the inverse of what the anti-Semite who poses as an anti-Zionist does.


----------



## Serene (Nov 19, 2021)

The Labour MP`s that were so drunk at an event in Gibraltar that one of them needed a wheelchair have sent the Labour Party soaring in the polls.


----------



## Shechemite (Nov 19, 2021)

Those focus groups paid off after all


----------



## MickiQ (Nov 19, 2021)

Serene said:


> The Labour MP`s that were so drunk at an event in Gibraltar that one of them needed a wheelchair have sent the Labour Party soaring in the polls.


What actually did these MP's do that was all that terrible? They got pissed and got shirty with some airport functionary. Hardly a major abuse of power. When Prescott belted the shit who through an egg at him, his popularity soared not least because he did what most people would do (or like to imagine they would do).  Bit of excitement, Starmer comes across as about as exciting as watching paint dry,


----------



## Serene (Nov 19, 2021)

Apparently the SNP MP`s there, couldnt go 15 minutes without calling someone a bastard. 😛


----------



## Raheem (Nov 19, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> What actually did these MP's do that was all that terrible?


Think it's just the best number 10 could come up with as a story to make certain papers print on a particular day in the hope of taking the focus away from Owen Pattison or whatever it happened to be.


----------



## Serene (Nov 19, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Think it's just the best number 10 could come up with as a story to make certain papers print on a particular day in the hope of taking the focus away from Owen Pattison or whatever it happened to be.


Exactement.


----------



## two sheds (Nov 19, 2021)

Serge Forward said:


> Then again, Richard Madeley _is_ Alan Partridge.











						Richard Madeley thinks some of the Alan Partridge  comparisons are ‘unfair’
					

There’s no secret that a lot of people enjoy watching British TV legend Richard Madeley because, at times, his presenting style often resembles a real-life Alan Partridge. It’s a comparison that many, many viewers have been making for years due to Madeley’s inexplicable ability to make even the...




					www.indy100.com


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Nov 20, 2021)

this has started doing the rounds


----------



## 8ball (Nov 20, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> this has started doing the rounds




Thoughts on likely consequence?


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Nov 20, 2021)

8ball said:


> Thoughts on likely consequence?



he will either expel himself from the party, or nothing at all will happen...


----------



## Raheem (Nov 20, 2021)

He's not wearing a tie in that photo. Next he'll be growing a beard.


----------



## DJWrongspeed (Nov 20, 2021)

Serene said:


> Is Starmer still the Labour leader? I havent heard of him for such a long time. I am sure he is being a real nuisance to the Tories though, as always. I expect he is flying banners by Airplane above London, promoting Labour, and doing all sorts of eye-opening stunts for the media to raise Labours voting base. So I shouldnt worry. Temps fugit, and all that.


This is what Starmer needs to do, like Biden, stay out of the picture. When he gets Covid poll ratings go up.
Boris is doing a great job of handling things badly.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Nov 20, 2021)

DJWrongspeed said:


> This is what Starmer needs to do, like Biden, stay out of the picture. When he gets Covid poll ratings go up.



for the labour party, or for covid, or both?


----------



## PR1Berske (Nov 22, 2021)




----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 22, 2021)

8ball said:


> Thoughts on likely consequence?



None, because Starmer is an absolute gift to the zionists.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 22, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> None, because Starmer is an absolute gift to the zionists.


if only they'd take him off our hands


----------



## Chilli.s (Nov 22, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> None, because Starmer is an absolute gift to the zionists.


He sees it as a good lead for work in the future, when he stops playing at being a politician


----------



## platinumsage (Nov 22, 2021)

Jeff Robinson said:


> I suspect virtually nobody who condemned Corbyn for sharing a platform with bad person X will bat an eyelid over this.




Yes an ambassador is directly equivalent to all the people Corbyn was criticized for sharing a platform with, well done.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Nov 22, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> Yes an ambassador is directly equivalent to all the people Corbyn was criticized for sharing a platform with, well done.



So, are you completely ignorant about her racist, ultra-right wing ideology and role in the Netanyahu government or do you just not think it matters?


----------



## PR1Berske (Nov 22, 2021)




----------



## killer b (Nov 22, 2021)

PR1Berske said:


>



it's incredible stuff this, i've been marvelling at it all afternoon.


----------



## andysays (Nov 22, 2021)

PR1Berske said:


>



I thought his favourite F word was "forensic"


----------



## Brainaddict (Nov 22, 2021)

Okay, because I'm bored...isn't he right that the Labour Party and the CBI have always been bound together? Successful social democracy requires a well functioning capitalist engine. And the labour movement itself has always been invested in the success of businesses, because there are points on which their goals align, one of which is the continued existence and success of employing enterprises.


----------



## killer b (Nov 22, 2021)

Brainaddict said:


> Okay, because I'm bored...isn't he right that the Labour Party and the CBI have always been bound together? Successful social democracy requires a well functioning capitalist engine. And the labour movement itself has always been invested in the success of businesses, because there are points on which their goals align, one of which is the continued existence and success of employing enterprises.


sure, it's the F-words bit that's remarkable. pure partridge.


----------



## killer b (Nov 22, 2021)

lord grant me the self confidence of Kier Starmer's speechwriter


----------



## Brainaddict (Nov 22, 2021)

Fair enough, a lot of people on twitter were getting worked up about his bound up with the CBI comment. Which is just ideology over fact. What the labour movement _does _and _is _does not accord with the ideology of its left wing. To a greater extent than that left wing would like to admit, it in fact does the opposite of what they think the movement is meant to be doing. KS is obviously a twat, but I'm getting a bit tired of a kind of revived mid-century socialism that has persistently refused to learn anything from events and changes since the mid twentieth century.


----------



## killer b (Nov 22, 2021)

Brainaddict said:


> a lot of people on twitter were getting worked up about


I can see where you're going wrong here


----------



## PR1Berske (Nov 22, 2021)




----------



## Jeff Robinson (Nov 22, 2021)




----------



## magneze (Nov 22, 2021)

Just imagine what the rejected takes must have been ...


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 22, 2021)

Jeff Robinson said:


>


Looks like someone out of shot is thrusting a suppository up sir keithly's back passage


----------



## brogdale (Nov 22, 2021)

Obvious caption opportunity....fnar fnar...


----------



## Carvaged (Nov 22, 2021)

HRH Sir Lord Starmer Esq seems impressively untalented at politics


----------



## elbows (Nov 22, 2021)

Maybe they can use this song at the next party conference.


----------



## Sue (Nov 22, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Obvious caption opportunity....fnar fnar...
> 
> View attachment 297810


Fwoar...?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 22, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Obvious caption opportunity....fnar fnar...
> 
> View attachment 297810


So you want me to stand in the shop window all day long, got it


----------



## TopCat (Nov 22, 2021)

andysays said:


> I thought his favourite F word was "forensic"


Felching.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 22, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> So you want me to stand in the shop window all day long, got it


Ever seen Starmer & Mr Cuprinol in the same room?

Spooky.


----------



## Serene (Nov 22, 2021)

Starmer has just announced that the Labour Party is going to call it a day. There will henceforth be no official opposition to the Government, and no-one will notice.


----------



## hitmouse (Nov 22, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> Yes an ambassador is directly equivalent to all the people Corbyn was criticized for sharing a platform with, well done.


What do you think about Lehava?


----------



## TopCat (Nov 22, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> What do you think about Lehava?


They are an ambassador. So it’s different somehow.


----------



## Leighsw2 (Nov 25, 2021)

Brainaddict said:


> Fair enough, a lot of people on twitter were getting worked up about his bound up with the CBI comment. Which is just ideology over fact. What the labour movement _does _and _is _does not accord with the ideology of its left wing. To a greater extent than that left wing would like to admit, it in fact does the opposite of what they think the movement is meant to be doing. KS is obviously a twat, but I'm getting a bit tired of a kind of revived mid-century socialism that has persistently refused to learn anything from events and changes since the mid twentieth century.


Interesting. I don't know about 'mid-century', but certainly in the last 15 years we've had financial collapse, swingeing austerity, stagnating and falling wages, the rise of precarious and zero-hour employment, all rounded off by a bunch of billionaires and corporations making a bigger killing during Covid than the virus has. 

In that context, talking about being 'on the side' of business and 'bound' together with the CBI comes across like a massive 'fuck you' to Britain's workers. Just my 'mid-century' opinion obviously!


----------



## two sheds (Nov 25, 2021)

Brainaddict said:


> I'm getting a bit tired of a kind of revived mid-century socialism that has persistently refused to learn anything from events and changes since the mid twentieth century.


My understanding of mid-century socialism (well as it influenced UK governments to the 70s) was welfare state with fairer social security and unemployment benefits, National Health Service, free education, council housing and full employment from public ownership of coal, gas, electricity and railway industries.

Cobyn did update these somewhat, but what you thinking of?


----------



## Brainaddict (Nov 26, 2021)

two sheds said:


> My understanding of mid-century socialism (well as it influenced UK governments to the 70s) was welfare state with fairer social security and unemployment benefits, National Health Service, free education, council housing and full employment from public ownership of coal, gas, electricity and railway industries.
> 
> Cobyn did update these somewhat, but what you thinking of?


It's the desire to try and re-run all those things without properly thinking through (a) what is different now? and (b) why did they get rolled back the first time?

First time as tragedy, second time as farce, to put it in a familiar phrasing. The 1950s-70s re-enactment society is not going to work.

The specific thing I was referring to was the belief of the left wing of the LP from that period that the welfare state etc was a step towards a deeper socialism, when in fact it was precisely an alliance with the forces of capital (for which the CBI can be seen as a proxy), and it was as much capital withdrawing support for the welfare state that made it possible to degrade it as it was trade unions weakening - they weren't necessarily the biggest drivers of parts of the welfare state anyway, since they often weren't that concerned with the unemployed, disabled etc. In summary, the Labour Party is and always has been strongest when it is more in alignment with the bosses, and trying to act like alignment with the bosses is a betrayal of the party's traditions is just....dumb. It mistakes the party's actual practices for the beliefs of a left wing that has largely been marginal.


----------



## Leighsw2 (Nov 26, 2021)

Brainaddict said:


> In summary, the Labour Party is and always has been strongest when it is more in alignment with the bosses, and trying to act like alignment with the bosses is a betrayal of the party's traditions is just....dumb. It mistakes the party's actual practices for the beliefs of a left wing that has largely been marginal.


Possibly you weren't paying attention in the 1964 and two 1974 elections? Or 2017? (Even 1997 had its moments, re. Windfall Tax.)


----------



## Leighsw2 (Nov 26, 2021)

Those Labour election victories (in short hand):
1945 - Left
1964 - Left(ish)
1974 Feb - very Left
1974 Oct - still Left
1997 - slightly Left
2001 - Right (collapse in working class turnout)
2005 - Right (got fewer votes than Michael Howard's Tories in England)
er, that it....


----------



## andysays (Nov 27, 2021)

Leighsw2 said:


> Those Labour election victories (in short hand):
> 1945 - Left
> 1964 - Left(ish)
> 1974 Feb - very Left
> ...



I think you'll need to back that list up with some substance if you expect it to be taken seriously.

You might also try to address the point about successive Labour governments being effectively an alliance with the forces of capital, which you seem either to have deliberately ignored or simply not understood.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 29, 2021)

Obvious apols that it's from Radio Murdoch, but as Starmer's reshuffle proceeds...oh dear...


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 29, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Obvious apols that it's from Radio Murdoch, but as Starmer's reshuffle proceeds...oh dear...



she is the greg wallace to sir keithly shammer's monica galleti


----------



## a_chap (Nov 29, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Obvious apols that it's from Radio Murdoch, but as Starmer's reshuffle proceeds...oh dear...




Lost count of how many times she said "you know".

Turns out she didn't know.


----------



## PR1Berske (Nov 29, 2021)

> Cat Smith said she was stepping down as shadow secretary of state for young people and democracy.
> 
> Writing to her party leader, Ms Smith - the MP for Lancaster and Fleetwood - said she was "grateful" for Sir Keir's offer to keep her in her shadow cabinet position.
> However, she said she would leave her role, adding: "I wish to focus more of my time in my Lancashire constituency."
> ...


----------



## Gramsci (Nov 29, 2021)

teqniq said:


> This is pretty dismal:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I notice in his speech he mentions several previous leaders of the party. 

Not Miliband whose criticism of Israeli military action in Gaza got him a lot of stick. 









						Jewish donors said abandoning UK’s ‘pro-Palestine’ Miliband
					

British Labour opposition leader, who is Jewish, regarded as 'toxic' by erstwhile backers, newspaper claims




					www.timesofisrael.com
				




Worth remembering that the right of the party saw the rot start to set in with soft left Miliband. 

This speech by Starmer also needs to be seen in light of Miliband criticisms of Israeli government/ army actions at the time of his leadership. In fact Miliband had the more balanced approach than Starmer and still got in trouble. 

Starmer speech is underlining Labour Party under him won't be doing that again. 

His quote of Harold Wilson shows this. This is agreeing with the myth that Palestine was an empty land until built up by Israel state.


----------



## PR1Berske (Nov 29, 2021)

> Keir Starmer has sparked a row in the Labour party by launching a shadow cabinet reshuffle as his deputy was giving a major speech attacking “corruption” by the government.
> 
> Allies of Angela Rayner insisted that while she met the Labour leader between her broadcast round on Monday morning and her speech at 11am, she was not told the reshuffle would be imminent or consulted about any of the details.
> 
> ...


----------



## quiet guy (Nov 29, 2021)

Just when you think he can't possibly fuck it up, he does just that. He's a one man disaster zone doing more to boost Johnson's support than anyone else.


----------



## Brainaddict (Nov 29, 2021)

The discussions over Israel/Palestine are very often proxies for the huge differences in politics that exist across the Labour Party spectrum. I wish more of the debates were about those differences more directly, rather than that one conflict being the nexus that brings together a load of things that the right and left of the party disagree on. I think it's reached a point where it's not benefiting either side to use Israel as the proxy constantly, and it's not benefitting Palestinians as far as I can tell. You don't think the government should sell weapons to governments bombing civilians? Say that, and use all the examples available. You don't want your government supporting other governments that treat other people as lesser human beings? Say that and use all the examples available. Etc etc. 

It's certainly very distressing for people who believe those actions are terrible to share a party with people who are fine with them, but the idea that anyone is doing the Palestinian people any good with this intense focus on Israel is a bit delusional I'm afraid. Yes, solidarity is good, but so is strategy, and there is zero strategic plan for the left of the Labour Party to help the Palestinian people at the moment or at any time in the forseeable future.

Always one of my less popular opinions, so do get the deckchairs out bystanders...


----------



## brogdale (Nov 29, 2021)




----------



## PR1Berske (Nov 29, 2021)

> Keir Starmer carried out a wholesale overhaul of his shadow cabinet on Monday, bringing Yvette Cooper back on to the frontbench as part of a ruthless shakeup widely viewed at Westminster as accelerating Labour’s shift to the centre under his leadership.
> 
> Cooper, who served in the last Labour government, will shadow Priti Patel as home secretary, resuming the spiky interactions the pair have had in Cooper’s current role as chair of the home affairs select committee.
> 
> ...


----------



## Quote (Nov 29, 2021)

Shadow Secretary for Levelling Up? Is 'Levelling Up' even a thing? I just assumed it was some vague, nebulous Tory blag that they never needed to explain or show examples of, but can be wheeled out whenever someone points out the shocking state of the country they've ruled over for 11 years.

Not that this dismal collection of dullards Labour is expecting us to turn out and vote for will offer anything more hopeful.


----------



## strung out (Nov 29, 2021)

Quote said:


> Shadow Secretary for Levelling Up? Is 'Levelling Up' even a thing? I just assumed it was some vague, nebulous Tory blag that they never needed to explain or show examples of, but can be wheeled out whenever someone points out the shocking state of the country they've ruled over for 11 years.
> 
> Not that this dismal collection of dullards Labour is expecting us to turn out and vote for will offer anything more hopeful.


It's a re-branded version of the ministry for housing and communities. Officially renamed in September with Gove's appointment. 









						Secretary of State for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities - Wikipedia
					






					en.m.wikipedia.org


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Nov 29, 2021)

strung out said:


> It's a re-branded version of the ministry for housing and communities. Officially renamed in September with Gove's appointment.



"ministry of bullshit" would be more honest...


----------



## Steel Icarus (Nov 29, 2021)

Secretary for levelling up lol
Lisa "Cheeky" Nandy


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 29, 2021)

strung out said:


> It's a re-branded version of the ministry for housing and communities. Officially renamed in September with Gove's appointment.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


How many people will tramp down the earth on his premature grave


----------



## Chilli.s (Nov 29, 2021)

Levelling up? what do they think this is Grand Theft Auto


----------



## Quote (Nov 29, 2021)

strung out said:


> It's a re-branded version of the ministry for housing and communities. Officially renamed in September with Gove's appointment.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Okay, thanks.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Nov 29, 2021)

Quote said:


> Shadow Secretary for Levelling Up? Is 'Levelling Up' even a thing? I just assumed it was some vague, nebulous Tory blag that they never needed to explain or show examples of, but can be wheeled out whenever someone points out the shocking state of the country they've ruled over for 11 years.
> 
> Not that this dismal collection of dullards Labour is expecting us to turn out and vote for will offer anything more hopeful.



Levelling up means no to wealth redistribution. The revisionist Starmer clique are happy to let the Tories frame the agenda.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Nov 29, 2021)

Comrade McDonnell speaks openly against the revisionist Starmer clique


----------



## killer b (Nov 29, 2021)

Of all the vulgar things this government have done and said, few are more vulgar than 'levelling up'.


----------



## two sheds (Nov 29, 2021)

trickle down by another name


----------



## two sheds (Nov 29, 2021)

Starmer - no longer forensic but .... ruthless


----------



## Raheem (Nov 29, 2021)

strung out said:


> It's a re-branded version of the ministry for housing and communities. Officially renamed in September with Gove's appointment.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Can't wait til we have a Department for Getting Into the Groove.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Nov 29, 2021)

killer b said:


> Of all the vulgar things this government have done and said, few are more vulgar than 'levelling up'.



in practice, it mostly means screwing London as punishment for voting for the 'wrong' mayor...


----------



## Raheem (Nov 29, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> in practice, it mostly means screwing London as punishment for voting for the 'wrong' mayor...


If only that was so.


----------



## killer b (Nov 29, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> in practice, it mostly means screwing London as punishment for voting for the 'wrong' mayor...


what do you mean?


----------



## mx wcfc (Nov 29, 2021)

killer b said:


> what do you mean?


Isn't there a fairly strong correlation between funding and voting tory?


----------



## killer b (Nov 29, 2021)

mx wcfc said:


> Isn't there a fairly strong correlation between funding and voting tory?


there's been a few headline bribes chucked the way of some new tory-voting seats, but it's fuck all when you look at what's been cut from all those places over the last 10 year, and London funding remains waaaay ahead of the regions.


----------



## killer b (Nov 29, 2021)

importantly, the pissy headline bribes to northern seats have not been scraped together by 'screwing' london out of some cash. that's not how it works


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 29, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Starmer - no longer forensic but .... ruthless


Classic shammer


----------



## two sheds (Nov 29, 2021)

Not sure how it relates to London (a couple of boroughs mentioned) but from last year:









						Labour councils in England hit harder by austerity than Tory areas
					

Exclusive: analysis by Guardian and Sigoma shows poorer, Labour-held areas lost over a third of spending power




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Leighsw2 (Nov 29, 2021)

Brainaddict said:


> The discussions over Israel/Palestine are very often proxies for the huge differences in politics that exist across the Labour Party spectrum. I wish more of the debates were about those differences more directly, rather than that one conflict being the nexus that brings together a load of things that the right and left of the party disagree on. I think it's reached a point where it's not benefiting either side to use Israel as the proxy constantly, and it's not benefitting Palestinians as far as I can tell. You don't think the government should sell weapons to governments bombing civilians? Say that, and use all the examples available. You don't want your government supporting other governments that treat other people as lesser human beings? Say that and use all the examples available. Etc etc.
> 
> It's certainly very distressing for people who believe those actions are terrible to share a party with people who are fine with them, but the idea that anyone is doing the Palestinian people any good with this intense focus on Israel is a bit delusional I'm afraid. Yes, solidarity is good, but so is strategy, and there is zero strategic plan for the left of the Labour Party to help the Palestinian people at the moment or at any time in the forseeable future.
> 
> Always one of my less popular opinions, so do get the deckchairs out bystanders...


I would have loved hearing your mid-1980s views about boycotts and South Africa . Or maybe not.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Nov 29, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> she is the greg wallace to sir keithly shammer's monica galleti



Monica Galetti seems like a very competent person who has a very clear idea of what she's doing, so I'm not quite following the comparison tbh.


----------



## two sheds (Nov 30, 2021)

Levelling up  









						Most deprived schools hit hardest by education cuts in England, IFS says
					

Spending down 14% in real terms at most disadvantaged secondaries, compared with 9% at least deprived




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Raheem (Nov 30, 2021)

Levelling up just means "Research into ways we can hang on to constituencies that voted for us just because of Brexit, without upsetting Tory papers or spending much money, given that we haven't found a way to make the terf thing work and there's no way the prime minister is wearing a flat cap."


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 30, 2021)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> Monica Galetti seems like a very competent person who has a very clear idea of what she's doing, so I'm not quite following the comparison tbh.


Greg Wallace thinks his opinion counts on professional MasterChef when in reality Marcus and Monica make the decisions. To be Greg Wallace against sir keithly's mg is therefore to be deluded as to your importance in the organisation.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 30, 2021)




----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 30, 2021)

brogdale said:


> View attachment 298760


this sort of delusion is typical from those infected with Omicron


----------



## Knotted (Nov 30, 2021)

This screwing over of Angela Rayner is the strangest thing. I don't see what it achieves at all. Politics aside Starmer's just a really unpleasant, petty person.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 30, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> this sort of delusion is typical from those infected with Omicron


On a grand scale; there's about 4 names in Starmer's list that have been around long enough to have Iraqi blood on their hands; next gen, my arse.


----------



## MickiQ (Nov 30, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Can't wait til we have a Department for Getting Into the Groove.


Ministry of Silly Walks


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 30, 2021)

brogdale said:


> On a grand scale; there's about 4 names in Starmer's list that have been around long enough to have Iraqi blood on their hands; next gen, my arse.




they're like the monkees, without the monkees' charm, wit and incisive political analysis


----------



## Brainaddict (Nov 30, 2021)

Leighsw2 said:


> I would have loved hearing your mid-1980s views about boycotts and South Africa . Or maybe not.


An easy comparison to make, but again if we were to prioritise strategy (rather than what _feels _right) we wouldn't just go for that comparison and then bypass further thought about it. We would examine what worked about the South Africa boycotts, what didn't work,  what the differences are between the position of South Africa and the position of Israel, economically and politically, the differences between the balance of forces within the two countries, the cultural/media reactions to external actions within those countries and so on.

The point of a political campaign is to win, not to feel good, and I think the pro-Palestine campaign in the UK has no strategy by which it can actually effect any change whatsoever within Israel or Palestine. In the meantime the campaign is waged with such lack of subtlety or political thought that the almost constant stream of 'accidental' anti-semitic speech it produces (and I know that to be real from experience and the experience of friends in the Labour Party) became the stick with which the right wing media could help destroy the party.

Added to that neither I nor many Jewish people in the UK nor in Israel can see why the UK left should be so obsessed with Israel compared to, say, Saudi Arabia, whose violence has been significantly greater over the last few years and which 'we' as the UK are much more implicated in.

When I add up all that on a balance sheet I reach the conclusion that I've stated here before: the left in the UK would do itself a favour by shutting up about Israel except where discussing it within broader foreign policy objectives - and I do not think the Palestinian people would suffer a single disadvantage from their reduced chatter on the topic.


----------



## RileyOBlimey (Nov 30, 2021)

Brainaddict said:


> An easy comparison to make, but again if we were to prioritise strategy (rather than what _feels _right) we wouldn't just go for that comparison and then bypass further thought about it. We would examine what worked about the South Africa boycotts, what didn't work,  what the differences are between the position of South Africa and the position of Israel, economically and politically, the differences between the balance of forces within the two countries, the cultural/media reactions to external actions within those countries and so on.
> 
> The point of a political campaign is to win, not to feel good, and I think the pro-Palestine campaign in the UK has no strategy by which it can actually effect any change whatsoever within Israel or Palestine. In the meantime the campaign is waged with such lack of subtlety or political thought that the almost constant stream of 'accidental' anti-semitic speech it produces (and I know that to be real from experience and the experience of friends in the Labour Party) became the stick with which the right wing media could help destroy the party.
> 
> ...



This is possibly the most condescending and ignorant post I’ve read on these boards. Well done.


----------



## RileyOBlimey (Nov 30, 2021)




----------



## Jeff Robinson (Nov 30, 2021)

Knotted said:


> This screwing over of Angela Rayner is the strangest thing. I don't see what it achieves at all. Politics aside Starmer's just a really unpleasant, petty person.



Rayner isn't fawning enough to the tory establishment. She's one of few cabinet positions left who isn't a washed up Blairite or centrist drone, so Starmer can't tolerate her.


----------



## two sheds (Nov 30, 2021)

Lisa Nandy backs Keir Starmer over Labour reshuffle rift
					

New shadow levelling up secretary says ‘gaffer picks the team’ amid anger from Angela Rayner allies




					www.theguardian.com
				




Only it wasn't about "the gaffer" : puke:, getting closer to the tories all the time) "picking the team and making the decisions", it was about not telling his deputy leader about the reshuffle and so making her look stupid.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Nov 30, 2021)

Brainaddict said:


> An easy comparison to make, but again if we were to prioritise strategy (rather than what _feels _right) we wouldn't just go for that comparison and then bypass further thought about it. We would examine what worked about the South Africa boycotts, what didn't work,  what the differences are between the position of South Africa and the position of Israel, economically and politically, the differences between the balance of forces within the two countries, the cultural/media reactions to external actions within those countries and so on.
> 
> The point of a political campaign is to win, not to feel good, and I think the pro-Palestine campaign in the UK has no strategy by which it can actually effect any change whatsoever within Israel or Palestine. In the meantime the campaign is waged with such lack of subtlety or political thought that the almost constant stream of 'accidental' anti-semitic speech it produces (and I know that to be real from experience and the experience of friends in the Labour Party) became the stick with which the right wing media could help destroy the party.
> 
> ...


I completely agree. And whilst we're on the subject let's shut up about China, Russia, Myanmar, North Korea, Hong Kong, Philippines, Belarus, Turkey, Syria, Yemen, Brazil. There's fuck all we can do about it. Oh yes, and global warming, nuclear weapons, the NHS. Just shut up, will you.


----------



## Brainaddict (Nov 30, 2021)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> I completely agree. And whilst we're on the subject let's shut up about China, Russia, Myanmar, North Korea, Hong Kong, Philippines, Belarus, Turkey, Syria, Yemen, Brazil.


I barely hear about them in the left wing chattersphere (with the possible exception of Syria), and certainly an order of magnitude less than about Israel, so I think the shutting up is already happening


----------



## Serge Forward (Nov 30, 2021)

It's not about shutting up about China, Russia, Myanmar, North Korea, Hong Kong, Philippines, Belarus, Turkey, Syria, Yemen, Brazil, etc though is it. There are many on the left who bang on about nothing but Israel while those other places get barely a mention.

This stance doesn't pass the smell test.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 30, 2021)

Brainaddict said:


> I barely hear about them in the left wing chattersphere (with the possible exception of Syria), and certainly an order of magnitude less than about Israel, so I think the shutting up is already happening


perhaps you're not listening


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Nov 30, 2021)

Serge Forward said:


> It's not about shutting up about China, Russia, Myanmar, North Korea, Hong Kong, Philippines, Belarus, Turkey, Syria, Yemen, Brazil, etc though is it. There are many on the left who bang on about nothing but Israel while those other places get barely a mention.
> 
> This stance doesn't pass the smell test.


I've never been accused of having a stance before, so thanks for that. People on the left, and people in general, can get obsessive about particular issues. That becomes more likely if the issue in question is a massive injustice which continues year on year, supported by our government, whose perpetrators are supplied with British arms. The UK has historical involvement in the Middle East, as you well know, so it's not surprising that many get passionate about it.

But anyway, I agree with Brainaddict, everyone should just shut up about everything. Otherwise you might get accused of having a smelly stance.


----------



## Serge Forward (Nov 30, 2021)

Don't take it personally, it's not all about you  But there are clearly many people on the left who spend a lot of time on Israel/Palestine. There's nothing wrong with this and there's no reason they should shut up. But when Israel/Palestine is the only thing they focus on, to the impediment of all other issues, then it all gets a bit fishy.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 30, 2021)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> I've never been accused of having a stance before, so thanks for that. People on the left, and people in general, can get obsessive about particular issues. That becomes more likely if the issue in question is a massive injustice which continues year on year, supported by our government, whose perpetrators are supplied with British arms. The UK has historical involvement in the Middle East, as you well know, so it's not surprising that many get passionate about it.
> 
> But anyway, I agree with Brainaddict, everyone should just shut up about everything. Otherwise you might get accused of having a smelly stance.


not to be confused with smelliest aunts


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Nov 30, 2021)

Serge Forward said:


> Don't take it personally, it's not all about you


Another illusion shattered


----------



## not a trot (Nov 30, 2021)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Rayner isn't fawning enough to the tory establishment. She's one of few cabinet positions left who isn't a washed up Blairite or centrist drone, so Starmer can't tolerate her.


Does he actually need her ?


----------



## brogdale (Nov 30, 2021)

That _next generation...

_


----------



## MickiQ (Nov 30, 2021)

I continue to hold to my view that the next Labour PM is probably not even an MP yet, Indeed I suspect he/she may very well still be at college or even school


----------



## Gerry1time (Nov 30, 2021)

Knotted said:


> This screwing over of Angela Rayner is the strangest thing. I don't see what it achieves at all. Politics aside Starmer's just a really unpleasant, petty person.


I'm not convinced he did screw her over. I suspect comms between them isn't great anyway, and whenever she perceives the slightest slight, she goes nuclear about it via her 'sources close to...'. The fact is that she's not leader of the party, he is, so he gets to do the reshuffles, and she doesn't get to sign them off. However, I think in reality she sees her role more as co-leader rather than deputy leader. 

What bugged me most yesterday though was her loudly complaining that his reshuffle had taken the focus of news away from tory failures (and her attempt to get column inches for herself), but she made that worse by immediately briefing about how cross she was, giving more column inches to the reshuffle story, that otherwise could have flown further under the radar. It feels like this is more about her and her personal ambitions than her wanting to pull in the same direction as everyone else to get a Labour government elected.


----------



## hitmouse (Nov 30, 2021)

Brainaddict said:


> An easy comparison to make, but again if we were to prioritise strategy (rather than what _feels _right) we wouldn't just go for that comparison and then bypass further thought about it. We would examine what worked about the South Africa boycotts, what didn't work,  what the differences are between the position of South Africa and the position of Israel, economically and politically, the differences between the balance of forces within the two countries, the cultural/media reactions to external actions within those countries and so on.
> 
> The point of a political campaign is to win, not to feel good, and I think the pro-Palestine campaign in the UK has no strategy by which it can actually effect any change whatsoever within Israel or Palestine. In the meantime the campaign is waged with such lack of subtlety or political thought that the almost constant stream of 'accidental' anti-semitic speech it produces (and I know that to be real from experience and the experience of friends in the Labour Party) became the stick with which the right wing media could help destroy the party...
> 
> When I add up all that on a balance sheet I reach the conclusion that I've stated here before: the left in the UK would do itself a favour by shutting up about Israel except where discussing it within broader foreign policy objectives - and I do not think the Palestinian people would suffer a single disadvantage from their reduced chatter on the topic.


Broadly agreed, although as a person of strong crude smashy-smashy tendencies I reckon there is some stuff that can be done in the UK that has a direct material impact on Elbit and the like; but agreed that the majority of people talking about Palestine in the UK are not doing that. And I suppose there is even an argument to be made that the orientation of current Palestine solidarity stuff actually makes it harder to do some of the things that might lead to change in Israeli society, like support to refuseniks and other oppositional tendencies.


Kevbad the Bad said:


> The UK has historical involvement in the Middle East, as you well know, so it's not surprising that many get passionate about it.








If you got passionate about everything that happened in the pink, purple and green bits of this map you'd not have much time to do anything else.


MickiQ said:


> I continue to hold to my view that the next Labour PM is probably not even an MP yet, Indeed I suspect he/she may very well still be at college or even school


The good news is that the next Labour PM is already an MP; the bad news is it's this fucker:


----------



## RileyOBlimey (Nov 30, 2021)

The Palestine solidarity movement in the UK is a very diverse (probably the most diverse) political campaign. Diverse in age, race and tactics. The very fact that brainaddict has come up with such falsehoods says a lot about him and fuck all about the movement.


----------



## hitmouse (Nov 30, 2021)

I don't think brainaddict said anything about the demographics of the Palestine solidarity movement? I thought the main claim that b. was making was that the Palestine solidarity movement lacks the ability to make a material impact on the situation in Israel/Palestine, which I would add qualifiers to, but seems unfortunately true for the most part?


----------



## Serene (Nov 30, 2021)

It was Goblin Gove who told them to stop the HS2 going to Leeds. He has proposed that they sever every road in and out of it also.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Nov 30, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> If you got passionate about everything that happened in the pink, purple and green bits of this map you'd not have much time to do anything else.


That's one benefit of being colour blind. More time to do other stuff.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 30, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> I continue to hold to my view that the next Labour PM is probably not even an MP yet, Indeed I suspect he/she may very well still be at college or even school


The next labour pm hasn't been invented yet


----------



## Dom Traynor (Nov 30, 2021)

RileyOBlimey said:


> The Palestine solidarity movement in the UK is a very diverse (probably the most diverse) political campaign. Diverse in age, race and tactics. The very fact that brainaddict has come up with such falsehoods says a lot about him and fuck all about the movement.


Riddled with anti semites from what I recall.


----------



## Leighsw2 (Nov 30, 2021)

Brainaddict said:


> ...
> 
> Added to that neither I nor many Jewish people in the UK nor in Israel can see *why the UK left should be so obsessed with Israel compared to, say, Saudi Arabia,* whose violence has been significantly greater over the last few years and which 'we' as the UK are much more implicated in.
> 
> ...


I can't really be arsed with the rest of this, but I had to laugh at this bit. One of the first things that Corbyn did after becoming Leader was to change Labour's position on Saudi Arabia and, for pretty much the first time in living memory, we had a Labour leadership speaking out against the Kingdom (particularly over Yemen and arms sales). As for Palestine, it was pretty much continuity with what had gone before under Miliband.

And that is probably the way it would have stayed except that the Labour Right and their media allies decided to platform front and centre a never ending, performative shit show around 'Labour anti-semitism' - an issue that had literally never existed before Corbyn became Leader (except in the wilder fringes of the Telegraph) and which, strangely, has vanished ever since he stood down (except as an ongoing stick with which to beat him personally and expel his supporters from the party.)

Unsurprisingly, there are some comrades who as a 'fuck you' to all of this nonsense have decided to re-emphasise their pro-Palestinian sentiments and who can blame them? But personally I feel I've heard more in the last few years about 'Israel', 'Palestine' and 'anti-semitism' than I want to hear in the whole of the rest of my life.

(And, before the inevitable responses, yes, there probably were some anti-semites lurking within Labour's half a million membership after 2015, just as there were Communists in Labour's ranks in the 1930s, '40s and '50s and Trotskists in the 1970s and '80s, but nothing that justifies the extraordinary cynical bad faith of the Labour Right in the way they have weaponised this issue against the whole of the Left in Britain.)


----------



## PR1Berske (Nov 30, 2021)




----------



## gosub (Nov 30, 2021)

hitmouse said:


>


worth pointing out that having complete supremacy of the blue bit was of some significance (prior to rendering its own fleet obsolete by inventing dreadnoughts)


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Nov 30, 2021)

MID-NORFOLK LABOUR PARTY
					

YOU ARE WELCOME TO THE MID-NORFOLK CONSTITUENCY LABOUR PARTY



					www.midnorfolklabour.com


----------



## agricola (Nov 30, 2021)

Leighsw2 said:


> I can't really be arsed with the rest of this, but I had to laugh at this bit. One of the first things that Corbyn did after becoming Leader was to change Labour's position on Saudi Arabia and, for pretty much the first time in living memory, we had a Labour leadership speaking out against the Kingdom (particularly over Yemen and arms sales). As for Palestine, it was pretty much continuity with what had gone before under Miliband.
> 
> *And that is probably the way it would have stayed except that the Labour Right and their media allies decided to platform front and centre a never ending, performative shit show around 'Labour anti-semitism' - an issue that had literally never existed before Corbyn became Leader (except in the wilder fringes of the Telegraph) and which, strangely, has vanished ever since he stood down (except as an ongoing stick with which to beat him personally and expel his supporters from the party.)*
> 
> ...



As an "issue" raised by the Labour right maybe not, but the majority of incidents that were used to go after Corbyn for things he'd said, written or done did date from that time before he was leader.  Obviously the fact they did nothing about them then (when they were in a position to) shows what they actually thought about much of it but they did happen.


----------



## krtek a houby (Dec 1, 2021)

Dom Traynor said:


> Riddled with anti semites from what I recall.



Any links, citations?


----------



## Knotted (Dec 1, 2021)

Fwiw I don't quite agree with Brainaddict wrt Palestine. There's some really good reasons why it's such a big issue among the left in this country. Ongoing conflict that never fizzles out where the situation in Gaza is deteriorating and the political mood in Israel is hardening. I also think that diplomatic efforts could take some of the heat off Gaza as Israel doesn't have any profound interest in the strip. Something like a Corbyn led government could make a difference there.

But I'm just here because I'm fascinated by this Starmer-Rayner spat. It's totally trivial but that's exactly what Starmer is. Just look at the state of this.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Dec 1, 2021)

Leighsw2 said:


> I can't really be arsed with the rest of this, but I had to laugh at this bit. One of the first things that Corbyn did after becoming Leader was to change Labour's position on Saudi Arabia and, for pretty much the first time in living memory, we had a Labour leadership speaking out against the Kingdom (particularly over Yemen and arms sales). As for Palestine, it was pretty much continuity with what had gone before under Miliband.
> 
> And that is probably the way it would have stayed except that the Labour Right and their media allies decided to platform front and centre a never ending, performative shit show around 'Labour anti-semitism' - an issue that had literally never existed before Corbyn became Leader (except in the wilder fringes of the Telegraph) and which, strangely, has vanished ever since he stood down (except as an ongoing stick with which to beat him personally and expel his supporters from the party.)
> 
> ...


Your point about Commies and Trots in the Labour Party is quite true. But Communists, presumably, would have been under orders from the Communist Party, Trotskyists under orders from the Socialist Labour League, or Militant or whoever. Just where did all these anti-semites come from? Who was behind it all? Or is there a general swirl of antisemitism in society which is so strong that inevitably some anti-semites joined the Labour Party? But if so why just the Labour Party? Why not Plaid Cymru or the SNP? They are nationalist parties after all. They have had accusations made against individual members, but nothing on the scale of the Labour Party. So who is orchestrating all these anti-semites?


----------



## Gerry1time (Dec 1, 2021)

Knotted said:


> But I'm just here because I'm fascinated by this Starmer-Rayner spat. It's totally trivial but that's exactly what Starmer is. Just look at the state of this.



Again though, who's the 'source' that's using outrage to turn a meaningless christmas party invite into a bigger story about the party being split? I'm guessing 'sources close to' Rayner. Same as yesterday. Could have been a pretty much non-story until someone went to the press with outrage.


----------



## JimW (Dec 1, 2021)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> Your point about Commies and Trots in the Labour Party is quite true. But Communists, presumably, would have been under orders from the Communist Party, Trotskyists under orders from the Socialist Labour League, or Militant or whoever. Just where did all these anti-semites come from? Who was behind it all? Or is there a general swirl of antisemitism in society which is so strong that inevitably some anti-semites joined the Labour Party? But if so why just the Labour Party? Why not Plaid Cymru or the SNP? They are nationalist parties after all. They have had accusations made against individual members, but nothing on the scale of the Labour Party. So who is orchestrating all these anti-semites?


My impression is the bulk of the problem is people who wouldn't dream of any sort of bigotry in the normal run of things getting invested in a culture of pro-Palestinian campaigning or just commentary that hasn't done enough to examine the lazy use of anti-Semitic tropes and so forth, and seeing as the people challenging them about it have often been horrible right wing shits doubling down on that rather than examining where they're getting it wrong.


----------



## Cerv (Dec 1, 2021)

Knotted said:


> But I'm just here because I'm fascinated by this Starmer-Rayner spat. It's totally trivial but that's exactly what Starmer is. Just look at the state of this.




One source told i: “It’s idiotic, pathetic and childish" while throwing all their toys out of the pram


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 1, 2021)

Cerv said:


> One source told i: “It’s idiotic, pathetic and childish" while throwing all their toys out of the pram


How many toys do they have - they never seem to finish throwing them out


----------



## elbows (Dec 1, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> MID-NORFOLK LABOUR PARTY
> 
> 
> YOU ARE WELCOME TO THE MID-NORFOLK CONSTITUENCY LABOUR PARTY
> ...











						Norfolk Labour website tells people not to vote Labour
					

A Norfolk constituency Labour party says it is powerless to amend its website, which has been telling people not to vote Labour for...




					www.edp24.co.uk
				






> A Norfolk constituency Labour party says it is powerless to amend its website, which has been telling people not to vote Labour for several days.
> 
> A disgruntled former party member, who used to manage the site, has edited the homepage of midnorfolklabour.com to criticise the party and its leader Keir Starmer.
> 
> ...


----------



## Serene (Dec 1, 2021)

I watched him in question time this afternoon and noticed he has had a coiffure. Still looks like an Alpaca. I did enjoy the banter though.


----------



## hitmouse (Dec 1, 2021)

Various threads this could go in, but might as well go here as the current general "why the Labour Party is going down the pan" thread:



> Today, the majority of Labour councillors from Sheffield City Council entered a University of Sheffield building for a pre-meeting, and in doing so, walked past striking members of Sheffield UCU.
> 
> 
> Along with UCU members from 57 other HE institutions across the UK, today is our first day of strike action in our dispute over rampant precarity, unhealthy workloads, equal pay, and substantial cuts to our pay and pensions.
> ...



Genuinely sounds like they actually crossed a picket line to have a discussion about whether to cross picket lines or not.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 1, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Various threads this could go in, but might as well go here as the current general "why the Labour Party is going down the pan" thread:
> 
> 
> 
> Genuinely sounds like they actually crossed a picket line to have a discussion about whether to cross picket lines or not.



I'd have laughed myself silly if a Tory councillor had refused to cross the picket line while the labour creatures walked through


----------



## hitmouse (Dec 1, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> I'd have laughed myself silly if a Tory councillor had refused to cross the picket line while the labour creatures walked through


Sounds like at least one yellow tory councillor did, is that close enough?


----------



## Balbi (Dec 1, 2021)

Thoroughly enjoying this Labour consistently ignoring that they've lost Scotland, probably forever.


----------



## Serene (Dec 1, 2021)

Haste ye back.


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 2, 2021)

Brainaddict said:


> When I add up all that on a balance sheet I reach the conclusion that I've stated here before: the left in the UK would do itself a favour by shutting up about Israel except where discussing it within broader foreign policy objectives - and I do not think the Palestinian people would suffer a single disadvantage from their reduced chatter on the topic.



My partner volunteered for a small Palestinian charity here and got the chance to go with group of teachers to visit Palestinian schools. She found despite the difficult conditions they lived under the Palestinian teachers she met worked hard to keep Palestinian society going. 

They were so pleased to have people from UK visit them. Meant they haven't been forgotten and have international support. 

So no I don't think ordinary people like my partner who want to show some support for Palestinians should shut up. And I do think the Palestinian people might see "shutting up about Israel" as not advantegous for them.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 2, 2021)

Brainaddict said:


> An easy comparison to make, but again if we were to prioritise strategy (rather than what _feels _right) we wouldn't just go for that comparison and then bypass further thought about it. We would examine what worked about the South Africa boycotts, what didn't work,  what the differences are between the position of South Africa and the position of Israel, economically and politically, the differences between the balance of forces within the two countries, the cultural/media reactions to external actions within those countries and so on.
> 
> The point of a political campaign is to win, not to feel good, and I think the pro-Palestine campaign in the UK has no strategy by which it can actually effect any change whatsoever within Israel or Palestine. In the meantime the campaign is waged with such lack of subtlety or political thought that the almost constant stream of 'accidental' anti-semitic speech it produces (and I know that to be real from experience and the experience of friends in the Labour Party) became the stick with which the right wing media could help destroy the party.
> 
> ...


Add stuff up on a balance sheet neat and tidy with red debits in one column and black credits in another, how nice and utterly removed from reality. Being as Britain bears a degree of responsibility for the situation in Palestine it's incumbent on people in this country who support a just solution to speak out - especially as the UK is a longstanding ally of and apologist for the Zionist entity. Even more so in the light of the news about the new agreement between the two countries. I wish you'd adopt your own prescription of silence as you seem to have nothing worth the saying on this subject


----------



## belboid (Dec 2, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Various threads this could go in, but might as well go here as the current general "why the Labour Party is going down the pan" thread:
> 
> 
> 
> Genuinely sounds like they actually crossed a picket line to have a discussion about whether to cross picket lines or not.



yup, that is what they did.  It wasn't really a majority tho, only a third or so of them.  Several didn't turn up and more stayed outside than went in.   The ones who went in were fucking idiots, of course. 

All of the libscum and tory did go in, some of the Greens, and passed some bollocks motions.


----------



## Brainaddict (Dec 2, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> My partner volunteered for a small Palestinian charity here and got the chance to go with group of teachers to visit Palestinian schools. She found despite the difficult conditions they lived under the Palestinian teachers she met worked hard to keep Palestinian society going.
> 
> They were so pleased to have people from UK visit them. Meant they haven't been forgotten and have international support.
> 
> So no I don't think ordinary people like my partner who want to show some support for Palestinians should shut up. And I do think the Palestinian people might see "shutting up about Israel" as not advantegous for them.


One of my first politicising experiences was travelling to Palestine and meeting a load of ordinary people affected by the conflict. I think solidarity visits can be a good thing, and direct actions against arms manufacturers and so on. But that's not inconsistent with the other things I've said.

People who think we have a responsibility to places 'we' have colonised and fucked up still need to explain why we don't give equal time to Yemen (in which the UK is much more actively involved in an actual shooting war in a former colony) or Kashmir (in which Indian police regularly shoot protesters and terrorise ordinary people in a former colony for whose conflict 'we' are much more directly responsible).


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Dec 2, 2021)

Brainaddict said:


> One of my first politicising experiences was travelling to Palestine and meeting a load of ordinary people affected by the conflict. I think solidarity visits can be a good thing, and direct actions against arms manufacturers and so on. But that's not inconsistent with the other things I've said.
> 
> People who think we have a responsibility to places 'we' have colonised and fucked up still need to explain why we don't give equal time to Yemen (in which the UK is much more actively involved in an actual shooting war in a former colony) or Kashmir (in which Indian police regularly shoot protesters and terrorise ordinary people in a former colony for whose conflict 'we' are much more directly responsible).


People don't need to explain to you why they get involved in political campaigns. Either listen to what they say or don't. As someone who is not in any way directly involved in Palestine solidarity I think it's worth pointing out how both Palestine Solidarity and Anti Apartheid often went hand in hand way back in the last century. Similar discriminations, similar oppression, if looked at in a certain way. Often the same people in the campaigns. Anti Apartheid is no more. Palestine continues. What's hard to understand about that?


----------



## Balbi (Dec 2, 2021)

Unite Union cutting Labour's funding.

Sharon Graham said they'd do that, and they are. Interesting to see her point at the SNP National Care Service policy as something Unite will campaign for, as it's not on the UK Labour party's agenda any more.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 2, 2021)

Brainaddict said:


> People who think we have a responsibility to places 'we' have colonised and fucked up still need to explain why we don't give equal time to Yemen (in which the UK is much more actively involved in an actual shooting war in a former colony) or Kashmir (in which Indian police regularly shoot protesters and terrorise ordinary people in a former colony for whose conflict 'we' are much more directly responsible).


You need to explain why you think these conflicts deserve equal time: not to mention what you mean by equal time


----------



## hitmouse (Dec 2, 2021)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> People don't need to explain to you why they get involved in political campaigns. Either listen to what they say or don't. As someone who is not in any way directly involved in Palestine solidarity I think it's worth pointing out how both Palestine Solidarity and Anti Apartheid often went hand in hand way back in the last century. Similar discriminations, similar oppression, if looked at in a certain way. Often the same people in the campaigns. Anti Apartheid is no more. Palestine continues. What's hard to understand about that?


I mean, I'm not an expert on the Labour left in the 1980s, but I don't think arguments around the anti-apartheid movement played any significant role in destroying the Labour left in the 1980s, whereas arguments around Palestine did play a fairly prominent role in fucking up the Labour left in the 2010s. So that's one fairly important distinction between the two, if looked at in the context of UK politics.


----------



## belboid (Dec 2, 2021)

Meanwhile in Mid Norfolk…









						MID-NORFOLK LABOUR PARTY
					

YOU ARE WELCOME TO THE MID-NORFOLK CONSTITUENCY LABOUR PARTY



					www.midnorfolklabour.com


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 2, 2021)

Brainaddict said:


> One of my first politicising experiences was travelling to Palestine and meeting a load of ordinary people affected by the conflict. I think solidarity visits can be a good thing, and direct actions against arms manufacturers and so on. But that's not inconsistent with the other things I've said.
> 
> People who think we have a responsibility to places 'we' have colonised and fucked up still need to explain why we don't give equal time to Yemen (in which the UK is much more actively involved in an actual shooting war in a former colony) or Kashmir (in which Indian police regularly shoot protesters and terrorise ordinary people in a former colony for whose conflict 'we' are much more directly responsible).



My partner isn't British or in Labour party. 

Palestinians get a lot of international support. 

What a lot of these discussions about support for Palestinians/ anti semitism excludes is any agency that Palestinians have. Despite losing their land they have refused to go away. They have over years managed to develop support across the world. This isn't just about the "left" in this country. The Palestinians themselves over the years through the Palestinian diaspora etc have worked hard to get support themselves. It's not just invention of the "left".

Anyway. This thread is about Starmer. He's made clear in recent publicised speech what he thinks as I've posted here.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Dec 2, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> I mean, I'm not an expert on the Labour left in the 1980s, but I don't think arguments around the anti-apartheid movement played any significant role in destroying the Labour left in the 1980s, whereas arguments around Palestine did play a fairly prominent role in fucking up the Labour left in the 2010s. So that's one fairly important distinction between the two, if looked at in the context of UK politics.


Or to put it another way, vague allegations about rampant antisemitism in the Labour Party were made by the Labour right wing, the Tories, the Tory press and, dare I say it, the pro Israel lobby, with the express intention of harming Corbyn, the Labour Party and the left in general. Nobody in Labour ever supported apartheid, or if they did they kept it pretty quiet.


----------



## AnnO'Neemus (Dec 2, 2021)

two sheds said:


> trickle down by another name


Except trickle down economics is a con, it doesn't work, it's never worked, the rich have always got richer and the poor haven't.


----------



## AnnO'Neemus (Dec 2, 2021)

brogdale said:


> View attachment 298760


He's deluded if he believes that.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 2, 2021)

AnnO'Neemus said:


> Except trickle down economics is a con, it doesn't work, it's never worked, the rich have always got richer and the poor haven't.


while "levelling up", on the other hand, ....


----------



## AnnO'Neemus (Dec 2, 2021)

RileyOBlimey said:


>



Political suicide note, right there. What is the point of an opposition that doesn't oppose?


----------



## AnnO'Neemus (Dec 2, 2021)

Gerry1time said:


> I'm not convinced he did screw her over. I suspect comms between them isn't great anyway, and whenever she perceives the slightest slight, she goes nuclear about it via her 'sources close to...'. The fact is that she's not leader of the party, he is, so he gets to do the reshuffles, and she doesn't get to sign them off. However, I think in reality she sees her role more as co-leader rather than deputy leader.
> 
> What bugged me most yesterday though was her loudly complaining that his reshuffle had taken the focus of news away from tory failures (and her attempt to get column inches for herself), but she made that worse by immediately briefing about how cross she was, giving more column inches to the reshuffle story, that otherwise could have flown further under the radar. It feels like this is more about her and her personal ambitions than her wanting to pull in the same direction as everyone else to get a Labour government elected.


Nah, it's either sabotage on Starmer's part or failure of leadership from a comms perspective.

Deputy Leader is making some scheduled appearances talking about topic X. Comms team would be aware of that. And then Leader decides to have a reshuffle on the same day - why couldn't he have done it the day before or the day after? - so any comms team with an ounce of nouse would know that Rayner would be asked questions about the reshuffle and not to have briefed her beforehand looks like either sabotage or incompetence.

Either Starmer and his team have deliberately tried to upstage and undermine Rayner and make her look out of the loop and incompetent. Or they didn't think through the consequences because they are, in fact, the incompetent ones. Neither scenario reflects well on Starmer.


----------



## AnnO'Neemus (Dec 2, 2021)

two sheds said:


> while "levelling up", on the other hand, ....


Yeah, that's a load of shite too.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Dec 2, 2021)

AnnO'Neemus said:


> Except trickle down economics is a con, it doesn't work, it's never worked, the rich have always got richer and the poor haven't.



best explanation i've seen of trickle down was in a sequence of steve bell cartoons featuring (then) chancellor lawson

lawson calls for pyramid of champagne glasses and bottle of champagne

lawson fills glasses at top of pyramid

lawson shows what happens in times of austerity (swigs from bottle)

lawson shows how glasses at bottom of pyramid get filled once the champagne has run out (he has his back to us and we can't quite see how he's filling them, but he has an empty bottle in his visible hand)


----------



## ska invita (Dec 3, 2021)

Balbi said:


> Unite Union cutting Labour's funding.
> 
> Sharon Graham said they'd do that, and they are. Interesting to see her point at the SNP National Care Service policy as something Unite will campaign for, as it's not on the UK Labour party's agenda any more.


says they will still give 1 million a year and put the rest to better use....anyone know what that figure is down from? Cant seem to find a coherent answer online


----------



## Serene (Dec 3, 2021)

Someone needs to compile a list of Politicians, ranked  from " utterly shít " all the way down to Starmer..


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 3, 2021)

Serene said:


> Someone needs to compile a list of Politicians, ranked  from " utterly shít " all the way down to Starmer..


Go on then


----------



## splonkydoo (Dec 3, 2021)

Serene said:


> Someone needs to compile a list of Politicians, ranked  from " utterly shít " all the way down to Starmer..



Sounds very forensic.


----------



## Serene (Dec 3, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Go on then


I havent got time, I have to put my rollers in.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 3, 2021)

Serene said:


> I havent got time, I have to put my rollers in.


Do it after you're back from putting them in the garage then


----------



## Serene (Dec 3, 2021)

splonkydoo said:


> Sounds very forensic.


Indeed it shouldnt have any statements that cannot be exact in the way a mathematician would prove it with a pencil.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 3, 2021)

Serene said:


> Indeed it shouldnt have any statements that cannot be exact in the way a mathematician would prove it with a pencil.


We let mathematicians use pens these days


----------



## Serene (Dec 3, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> We let mathematicians use pens these days


Well the intelligent ones use a pencil in case they make a mistake.


----------



## steveseagull (Dec 4, 2021)

I was speaking to a rather prominent back bench Labour MP a couple of weeks ago and they told me that "He is a nice man but he is not a politician" and it shows. Generally speaking, the MP was very unimpressed with his performance.


----------



## steveseagull (Dec 4, 2021)

Maybe on the conspiratorial side, but I do wonder if Margaret Hodge not contesting her seat is linked to the Forde Inquiry as his report has been promised at the January NEC meeting. There were accusations that she had flooded the complaints system with over 200 false accusations of anti-Semitism which only a handful turned out to be Labour members. 

I also wonder if it paves the way back for a certain Mr Corbyn, as she cannot resign again after already resigning (unless she is going to do a Maureen Lipman)

Starmer needs to get the Corbyn situation sorted before the next election otherwise it is going to dominate the news cycle and Labour are going to lose a London seat.


----------



## AnnO'Neemus (Dec 4, 2021)

steveseagull said:


> I was speaking to a rather prominent back bench Labour MP a couple of weeks ago and they told me that "He is a nice man but he is not a politician" and it shows. Generally speaking, the MP was very unimpressed with his performance.


I'd even question the nice man bit. Starmer seems to have been dining out on the fact he did some human rights cases in his early legal career while a barrister, but he arguably turned establishment cunt while DPP. 

A friend of mine was one of the people who was convicted then had their conviction quashed over this unseemly affair.

"A group of climate activists are calling on Labour leader Keir Starmer to give evidence to the Undercover Policing Inquiry, alleging he may have been involved in a cover-up of police and prosecutors orchestrating wrongful convictions.

The 18 activists were part of a group of 114 arrested while planning a protest against Nottinghamshire’s Ratcliffe-on-Soar coal-fired power station in April 2009.

Some of them were prosecuted and convicted of conspiracy.

A further six were in a group prosecuted separately, whose trial dramatically collapsed after they discovered one of the protesters was undercover police officer Mark Kennedy.

When they asked to see Kennedy’s secret evidence, rather than disclose it the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) dropped the charges. When the defendants were given transcripts of Kennedy’s secret recordings of the protest planning meetings, they did indeed exonerate the six. The 20 activists convicted at the earlier trial have now had their convictions quashed."









						Starmer Must Give Evidence to Inquiry, Say Activists Fitted Up by Spycops
					

18 activists arrested with an undercover cop want Keir Starmer to testify to the spycops public inquiry about his role in an apparent cover-up




					campaignopposingpolicesurveillance.com
				




And don't forget the night courts during the 2011 riots. All those people given harsh sentences, imprisoned for knocking a bottle of water. 

[Tbh, I walked past the big Tesco in Hackney on Morning Lane during the riots and saw a couple of cases of bottles of water that had been liberated, just on the floor by the side door. If I'd been thirsty and helped myself to a bottle, I might easily have ended up in prison. I was offered biscuits on Clarence Road by a guy who'd participated in looting that little convenience store, glad I didn't accept any of those either.]









						England riots: all-night courts praised, but were they a publicity stunt? | Fiona Bawdon
					

Fiona Bawdon: We need help from those involved in dealing with riot cases who are willing to be interviewed for phase two of the Reading the Riots research




					www.theguardian.com
				




The upshot is that Sir Keir is not a nice man, not where the little people are concerned. He might've been once, but he's now establishment through and through. Where has the nice man been when poor and disabled people have been being financially battered by austerity?


----------



## ska invita (Dec 4, 2021)

steveseagull said:


> Maybe on the conspiratorial side, but I do wonder if Margaret Hodge not contesting her seat is linked to the Forde Inquiry as his report has been promised at the January NEC meeting. There were accusations that she had flooded the complaints system with over 200 false accusations of anti-Semitism which only a handful turned out to be Labour members.
> 
> I also wonder if it paves the way back for a certain Mr Corbyn, as she cannot resign again after already resigning (unless she is going to do a Maureen Lipman)
> 
> Starmer needs to get the Corbyn situation sorted before the next election otherwise it is going to dominate the news cycle and Labour are going to lose a London seat.



That sounds plausible re Hodge standing down, but whats it got to do with paving the way for Corbyn? I dont think that will be resolved -I think he'll run as an independent - and win.



ska invita said:


> says they will still give 1 million a year and put the rest to better use....anyone know what that figure is down from? Cant seem to find a coherent answer online


seems as if the 1million is the flat rate affiliation fee that gives them a place on the NEC etc....they wont give a penny more on top of that. Previous donations documented in the press are all on top of that 1mill I think.
?


----------



## Serene (Dec 4, 2021)

It is like the Labour party has been infiltrated once again by a tory, a tory leader. The tories have infiltrated the Labour party and put a tory in charge of it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 4, 2021)

steveseagull said:


> Maybe on the conspiratorial side, but I do wonder if Margaret Hodge not contesting her seat is linked to the Forde Inquiry as his report has been promised at the January NEC meeting. There were accusations that she had flooded the complaints system with over 200 false accusations of anti-Semitism which only a handful turned out to be Labour members.
> 
> I also wonder if it paves the way back for a certain Mr Corbyn, as she cannot resign again after already resigning (unless she is going to do a Maureen Lipman)
> 
> Starmer needs to get the Corbyn situation sorted before the next election otherwise it is going to dominate the news cycle and Labour are going to lose a London seat.


So farewell to the paedos' friend


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 4, 2021)

Chatting to a friend last night in Lambeth.In his area the Progress lot are back in control of key positions in local party. People have been leaving party in droves. A result of the Starmer leadership.

The person had rejoined the party when Corbyn was leader. They aren't Corbyn supporter as such. Had voted Starmer for leader on basis of the ten pledges and that he seemed a good compromise candidate. Been disappointed .

Lambeth is slightly special case as it's been run as a Progress Council for years. Many rejoined party in Lambeth who weren't necessarily hard left but couldn't stand Progress led Council.

Starmer has joined up with the right of party now. Instead of doing what he promised in leadership election

My Cllrs are happy with this.

I won't be voting Labour at Council elections next year if this kind of behaviour by right / Progress side of party continues.


----------



## magneze (Dec 4, 2021)

Yvette Coopers piece in the Guardian: "Our top team is ready for government." (Now I'm in it.)


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Dec 4, 2021)

AnnO'Neemus said:


> Where has the nice man been when poor and disabled people have been being financially battered by austerity?



he was abstaining, forensically...


----------



## Sue (Dec 4, 2021)

magneze said:


> Yvette Coopers piece in the Guardian: "Our top team is ready for government." (Now I'm in it.)


'Top team'. Jeezo. 🤣


----------



## Chilli.s (Dec 4, 2021)

AnnO'Neemus said:


> I'd even question the nice man bit. Starmer seems to have been dining out on the fact he did some human rights cases in his early legal career while a barrister, but he arguably turned establishment cunt while DPP.
> 
> A friend of mine was one of the people who was convicted then had their conviction quashed over this unseemly affair.
> 
> ...


Top post. 
He might be a nice man to some but he's also a shit opposition leader.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 4, 2021)

magneze said:


> Yvette Coopers piece in the Guardian: "Our top team is ready for government." (Now I'm in it.)


they're not even ready to play civilisation


----------



## Sue (Dec 4, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> they're not even ready to play civilisation


Or snap.


----------



## splonkydoo (Dec 4, 2021)

magneze said:


> Yvette Coopers piece in the Guardian: "Our top team is ready for government." (Now I'm in it.)



The gaffer picks the team, but unlike football, Starmer won't be getting the chop when they get absolutely roasted. Not for a few years yet anyway.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 4, 2021)

splonkydoo said:


> The gaffer picks the team, but unlike football, Starmer won't be getting the chop when they get absolutely roasted. Not for a few years yet anyway.


Sir keithly shammer should get labour relegated to the political equivalent of the national league (south)


----------



## two sheds (Dec 4, 2021)

Labour rift deepens as Angela Rayner aide suspended
					

Comms adviser denies allegation of personal data breach




					www.independent.co.uk
				




*Today I Learned* 

TiL: Starmer can't sack Rayner because she was directly elected by party members.

lol


----------



## Serene (Dec 4, 2021)

Put Rayner in charge. Let her kick off.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 4, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Labour rift deepens as Angela Rayner aide suspended
> 
> 
> Comms adviser denies allegation of personal data breach
> ...



Yup. Same reason Corbyn couldn't get shot of that weasel Tom Watson.


----------



## Serene (Dec 4, 2021)

Labour could have a different leader every week. Let a different, angry working class person do it. They can say what they think at PM questions. Quite possibly every week Labour would be forced to sack their leader because of language and behaviour, then appoint another. Like on have I got news for you. I would have a go on the front bench for a week. I would do my turn.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Dec 4, 2021)

Serene said:


> Labour could have a different leader every week. Let a different, angry working class person do it. They can say what they think at PM questions. Quite possibly every week Labour would be forced to sack their leader because of language and behaviour, then appoint another. Like on have I got news for you. I would have a go on the front bench for a week. I would do my turn.


I would volunteer for a stint as Labour leader. Unfortunately my main job in the British Virgin Islands is just too demanding at the moment. Maybe another time.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Dec 4, 2021)

Serene said:


> Put Rayner in charge. Let her kick off.


As has already been pointed out, she's just a fake 'socialist'. But hey, that's the Labour 'left' for ya.


----------



## krtek a houby (Dec 5, 2021)

Sue said:


> Or snap.



Immediately thought of Thanos, thinning out the Labour right, rather than the card game


----------



## AnnO'Neemus (Dec 5, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Labour rift deepens as Angela Rayner aide suspended
> 
> 
> Comms adviser denies allegation of personal data breach
> ...


You couldn't make it up:


"Rayner’s head of communications Jack McKenna has been placed under investigation on suspicion of a personal data breach relating to another Labour staff member...

...He is understood to have learnt of his suspension from a reporter with the Sunday Times, raising questions about the party’s handling of his own personal data."

🤣🤡🤣

'kinell. Clowns running government and clowns running the opposition. What an omnifuckingshambles.


----------



## bellaozzydog (Dec 5, 2021)

Brainaddict said:


> An easy comparison to make, but again if we were to prioritise strategy (rather than what _feels _right) we wouldn't just go for that comparison and then bypass further thought about it. We would examine what worked about the South Africa boycotts, what didn't work,  what the differences are between the position of South Africa and the position of Israel, economically and politically, the differences between the balance of forces within the two countries, the cultural/media reactions to external actions within those countries and so on.
> 
> The point of a political campaign is to win, not to feel good, and I think the pro-Palestine campaign in the UK has no strategy by which it can actually effect any change whatsoever within Israel or Palestine. In the meantime the campaign is waged with such lack of subtlety or political thought that the almost constant stream of 'accidental' anti-semitic speech it produces (and I know that to be real from experience and the experience of friends in the Labour Party) became the stick with which the right wing media could help destroy the party.
> 
> ...


Blimey


----------



## Brainaddict (Dec 5, 2021)

bellaozzydog said:


> Blimey


I think a few people have mistakenly thought that this post means that I don't care about the plight of Palestinian people. Nothing could be further from the truth. What it actually means is that I don't want to hear about it from British people who have spent decades developing a discourse around it that is (a) useless or worse than useless and (b) regularly produces antisemitic speech as a by-product. The most important of these is (a), but (b) does matter too. As I've since said, I think it's good when people take solidarity actions and so on, but that's mostly not what all the chatter is about.


----------



## pug (Dec 5, 2021)




----------



## two sheds (Dec 5, 2021)

If they don't want two sites that confuse people they should just leave that one up, no confusion now


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 5, 2021)

Brainaddict said:


> I think a few people have mistakenly thought that this post means that I don't care about the plight of Palestinian people. Nothing could be further from the truth. What it actually means is that I don't want to hear about it from British people who have spent decades developing a discourse around it that is (a) useless or worse than useless and (b) regularly produces antisemitic speech as a by-product. The most important of these is (a), but (b) does matter too. As I've since said, I think it's good when people take solidarity actions and so on, but that's mostly not what all the chatter is about.



So are you against BDS? Starmer says he is. 

BDS is supported by Palestinian organisations.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Dec 5, 2021)

Brainaddict said:


> I think a few people have mistakenly thought that this post means that I don't care about the plight of Palestinian people. Nothing could be further from the truth. What it actually means is that I don't want to hear about it from British people who have spent decades developing a discourse around it that is (a) useless or worse than useless and (b) regularly produces antisemitic speech as a by-product. The most important of these is (a), but (b) does matter too. As I've since said, I think it's good when people take solidarity actions and so on, but that's mostly not what all the chatter is about.


I know a handful of people who campaign around Palestinian solidarity. From what I see much of their activity centres around raising money for Medical Aid for Palestine. So I'll tell them that you would rather they raised that money without giving too much detail to anyone, or putting anything in any kind of historical context, or being critical of Israel or Zionism, or attempting to spread any kind of awareness. Honestly. What are you like?


----------



## Knotted (Dec 5, 2021)

AnnO'Neemus said:


> You couldn't make it up:
> 
> 
> "Rayner’s head of communications Jack McKenna has been placed under investigation on suspicion of a personal data breach relating to another Labour staff member...
> ...



Just look at Rayner's smile and wink when asked about the reshuffle. It's open warfare and she ain't on the losing side.


----------



## elbows (Dec 5, 2021)

Knotted said:


> Just look at Rayner's smile and wink when asked about the reshuffle. It's open warfare and she ain't on the losing side.


Although I'd suggest that she is used to winning battles and somewhat relishes such scraps, which might make her slow to recognise losing one if that ever happens.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 5, 2021)

Knotted said:


> Just look at Rayner's smile and wink when asked about the reshuffle. It's open warfare and she ain't on the losing side.


great.


----------



## Leighsw2 (Dec 6, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> Chatting to a friend last night in Lambeth.In his area the Progress lot are back in control of key positions in local party. People have been leaving party in droves. A result of the Starmer leadership.
> 
> The person had rejoined the party when Corbyn was leader. They aren't Corbyn supporter as such. Had voted Starmer for leader on basis of the ten pledges and that he seemed a good compromise candidate. Been disappointed .
> 
> ...


Have to agree with this sadly. Greens might be a good bet in next year's elections - Lambeth Progress were shocked by their breakthrough in the south of the borough in 2018.


----------



## Johnny Vodka (Dec 6, 2021)

Leighsw2 said:


> Have to agree with this sadly. Greens might be a good bet in next year's elections - Lambeth Progress were shocked by their breakthrough in the south of the borough in 2018.



I would definitely vote Green down south.  I try and vote Green up here, when there's an option.  Actually, I joined the Scottish Greens...  Green parties may still be seen as a bit of a shambles (maybe with reason), but they will be the most progressive/radical/left/environmental party on your paper.  Starmer's fault for not giving anyone who leans in that direction a better option.


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 6, 2021)

Leighsw2 said:


> Have to agree with this sadly. Greens might be a good bet in next year's elections - Lambeth Progress were shocked by their breakthrough in the south of the borough in 2018.



And the breakthrough wasn't about "green" issues. In Herne hill ward for example it was about Progress Lambeth policy on libraries. Other issue was the unpopular estate regeneration of Progress Lambeth. Greens do best when they concentrate on these topics which are directly relevant to locals concerns.

Turnout to vote in my Council ward next door was low. Greens never made headway. It's a ward of Council estates/ working class. Either vote Labour or don't vote.

I think Starmer is here to stay for now. He's advisors are doing the they've nowhere else to go as far as inner London goes.

They are hoping people like me are just a minority who aren't worth bothering with


----------



## PR1Berske (Dec 7, 2021)

> Harriet Harman, Labour’s former deputy leader, has said she will step down at the next election after around 40 years in parliament.
> 
> The mother of the house – the title given to the female MP with the longest continuous service – said she felt she could move on from the Commons with renewed faith in her party’s future.
> 
> ...


----------



## steveseagull (Dec 8, 2021)

Starmer on today's scandal: The PM must apologise
Everyone else: The PM must resign.


----------



## RileyOBlimey (Dec 8, 2021)

Starmer is more corrupt than Boris.


----------



## Chilli.s (Dec 8, 2021)

RileyOBlimey said:


> Starmer is more corrupt than Boris.


Does smell like that


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 8, 2021)

RileyOBlimey said:


> Starmer is more corrupt than Boris.



More compromised maybe.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 9, 2021)

Just some pictures of Sir Starmer choking


----------



## splonkydoo (Dec 9, 2021)

Bloody Corbyn..!


----------



## Serene (Dec 10, 2021)

When are Labour going to do something to get these unions sorting this exploitation of workers out that is occurring everywhere?


----------



## Brainaddict (Dec 10, 2021)

Serene said:


> When are Labour going to do something to get these unions sorting this exploitation of workers out that is occurring everywhere?


That's not the way round it has ever worked.


----------



## Serene (Dec 10, 2021)

Brainaddict said:


> That's not the way round it has ever worked.


Thats a bit cryptic for me. I am still putting my rollers in and drinking coffee yet.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 10, 2021)

Serene said:


> Thats a bit cryptic for me. I am still putting my rollers in and drinking coffee yet.


perhaps you shouldn't post until you're fully awake in future


----------



## Sprocket. (Dec 10, 2021)

Serene said:


> When are Labour going to do something to get these unions sorting this exploitation of workers out that is occurring everywhere?


After 47 years membership of our trade union I can safely say I have never known any Labour Party leadership do anything to aid the workers in trade unions.
The only interest they appear to have is the money donated through union political funds.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Dec 10, 2021)

Knew he'd get there eventually...


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Dec 10, 2021)

Serene said:


> Thats a bit cryptic for me. I am still putting my rollers in and drinking coffee yet.





Pickman's model said:


> perhaps you shouldn't post until you're fully awake in future


Genuine question. When is the best time to put your rollers in, and why? ( Not that I've got that much left to roll with these days. )

Less genuine question. Do we all have to wait before posting until we're fully awake in the future? How is that actually possible anyway?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 10, 2021)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> Genuine question. When is the best time to put your rollers in, and why? ( Not that I've got that much left to roll with these days. )
> 
> Less genuine question. Do we all have to wait before posting until we're fully awake in the future? How is that actually possible anyway?


You'll know when you're woke


----------



## TopCat (Dec 10, 2021)

Serene said:


> When are Labour going to do something to get these unions sorting this exploitation of workers out that is occurring everywhere?


Never. That would be counter to their general aims.


----------



## Serene (Dec 10, 2021)

Sprocket. said:


> After 47 years membership of our trade union I can safely say I have never known any Labour Party leadership do anything to aid the workers in trade unions.
> The only interest they appear to have is the money donated through union political funds.


47 years, you really speak with wisdom! Thank you. You are saying what other people say whom I asked.


----------



## Serene (Dec 10, 2021)

Things cant go on much longer as they are for the working class. Its clearly going to get a lot tougher too.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 10, 2021)

Sprocket. said:


> After 47 years membership of our trade union I can safely say I have never known any Labour Party leadership do anything to aid the workers in trade unions.
> The only interest they appear to have is the money donated through union political funds.


in his after dinner speeches blair makes a point of not speaking from notes and tells his audiences 'the only notes that really count are the ones that come in wads'.


----------



## elbows (Dec 10, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> in his after dinner speeches blair makes a point of not speaking from notes and tells his audiences 'the only notes that really count are the ones that come in wads'.



The only notes that really count are the ones written by penguin food critics.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 10, 2021)

elbows said:


> The only notes that really count are the ones written by penguin food critics.


been meaning to say, we may have a new hero in the DnB deejay/producer world - PENGO!!


----------



## Carvaged (Dec 10, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> 'the only notes that really count are the ones that come in wads'.



Pretty sure that's what Lord Starmer said in the last series of Apprentice


----------



## TopCat (Dec 11, 2021)

The new PPI? Claims firms turn their fire on data breaches
					

People are being told they are entitled to compensation as more companies move into the industry




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## gosub (Dec 11, 2021)




----------



## elbows (Dec 13, 2021)

I am ready to be uninspired by the pre-recorded Starmer Omicron response speech that is due this evening. I will force myself to watch it only so that I can continue to evaluate Labours pandemic performance.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 13, 2021)

elbows said:


> I am ready to be uninspired by the pre-recorded Starmer Omicron response speech that is due this evening. I will force myself to watch it only so that I can continue to evaluate Labours pandemic performance.


how was it? i presume he agrees with the government?


----------



## BristolEcho (Dec 13, 2021)

ska invita said:


> how was it? i presume he agrees with the government?


Loads of "patriotic" wank.


----------



## Serene (Dec 14, 2021)

To get my uncles vote for Labour, he says that Starner will need to sort out dog poo and take away litter on the streets. He said it needs a three strikes and you are out, life sentence, like in America. He also drinks in wetherspoons and would still vote tory even if Johnson called him names on telly.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Dec 14, 2021)

Serene said:


> To get my uncles vote for Labour, he says that Starner will need to sort out dog poo and take away litter on the streets. He said it needs a three strikes and you are out, life sentence, like in America. He also drinks in wetherspoons and would still vote tory even if Johnson called him names on telly.



TBH I wouldn't be surprised if 'strong action on dog poo' is what emerges when he finally decides he needs a big idea.


----------



## elbows (Dec 14, 2021)

ska invita said:


> how was it? i presume he agrees with the government?


It seemed to be to be a multi-purpose speech. The usual politics including attempts to come across as patriotic and statesmanlike, the obligatory reference to the Labour parties role in the creation of the NHS, etc. But also a further sign that the establishment worry that Johnson doesnt have the authority left to handle the big national emergency messages to the public that authorities deem necessary at times like this on his own.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Dec 14, 2021)

Iron fist communiqué of the week!


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Dec 14, 2021)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Iron fist communiqué of the week!



I much prefer the Iron Column


----------



## Serge Forward (Dec 14, 2021)

AmateurAgitator said:


> I much prefer the Iron Column


----------



## Raheem (Dec 14, 2021)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> TBH I wouldn't be surprised if 'strong action on dog poo' is what emerges when he finally decides he needs a big idea.


"We're going to stamp down hard..."


----------



## Calamity1971 (Dec 14, 2021)

Interviewer on Sky News.. 'do you think BJ should resign' ?

Sir Keef. ' He needs to have a long hard word with himself '.
Straight for the jugular there!


----------



## two sheds (Dec 14, 2021)

forensic long hard word


----------



## TopCat (Dec 14, 2021)

wanker


----------



## ska invita (Dec 14, 2021)

Just heard a clip of Starmer saying of Johnson "Hes the worst possible leader at the worst possible time"!


What a cheeky fucker!! Thats literally what people have been saying about Starmer for the last two years, verbatim.
THe line must have got back to him and his staff and they thought, yeah we could use that!


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 14, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Just heard a clip of Starmer saying of Johnson "Hes the worst possible leader at the worst possible time"!
> 
> 
> What a cheeky fucker!! Thats literally what people have been saying about Starmer for the last two years, verbatim.




God has it been two years.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 14, 2021)

He needs to take the barrister's plum out of his cheeks when he's saying that.


----------



## gosub (Dec 14, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Just heard a clip of Starmer saying of Johnson "Hes the worst possible leader at the worst possible time"!
> 
> 
> What a cheeky fucker!! Thats literally what people have been saying about Starmer for the last two years, verbatim.
> THe line must have got back to him and his staff and they thought, yeah we could use that!



Arrogent cunt.  worst possible time. It s just a time.  There have been better there have been worse (for me at least).  What next? things can only better..
Fuck him and his faux oturage. No way he did n't know what was going on elsewhere in Westminster last year. If he didn't he's a moron and if he did he's hypocrite.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Dec 14, 2021)

gosub said:


> What next things can only better?



that's a bit over optimistic for new new labour

"things can get marginally less crap when circumstances permit" maybe?


----------



## Calamity1971 (Dec 15, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> that's a bit over optimistic for new new labour
> 
> "things can get marginally less crap when circumstances permit" maybe?


Am I the only one who tried singing that?


----------



## RileyOBlimey (Dec 17, 2021)

Starmer's effort to appeal to Lib Dems hasn't gone to plan in Shropshire


----------



## ruffneck23 (Dec 17, 2021)

RileyOBlimey said:


> Starmer's effort to appeal to Lib Dems hasn't gone to plan in Shropshire
> 
> View attachment 301203


Imagine making labour less popular than JC did...


----------



## two sheds (Dec 17, 2021)

with wall to wall negative coverage of the tories in the papers, and without wall to wall negative coverage of labour.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 17, 2021)

RileyOBlimey said:


> Starmer's effort to appeal to Lib Dems hasn't gone to plan in Shropshire
> 
> View attachment 301203


tbf there was likely a high degree of tactical Lab voting: it was common knowledge a lib dem rout of the tories might be on the cards, so i can imagine lab voters piling in behind to get the job done


----------



## two sheds (Dec 17, 2021)

Labour candidate looks a bit of a twat after complaining that Lib Dems were lying about having the best chance.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Dec 17, 2021)

ska invita said:


> tbf there was likely a high degree of tactical Lab voting: it was common knowledge a lib dem rout of the tories might be on the cards, so i can imagine lab voters piling in behind to get the job done



Precisely. Plus there are seats that Labour aren’t every going to win - with or without Starmer - and this is one of them. It’s farmer land


----------



## killer b (Dec 17, 2021)

ska invita said:


> it was common knowledge a lib dem rout of the tories might be on the cards


How did this become 'common knowledge'?


----------



## strung out (Dec 17, 2021)

killer b said:


> How did this become 'common knowledge'?


Because the Lib Dems went around telling everyone so!


----------



## ska invita (Dec 17, 2021)

killer b said:


> How did this become 'common knowledge'?


tv/media
tory politicians fretting
?


----------



## killer b (Dec 17, 2021)

strung out said:


> Because the Lib Dems went around telling everyone!


quite, it just looked like a boilerplate Lib Dem campaign to me, but for some reason everyone started repeating their C&P 'only the lib dems can beat the tories here!' stuff as if it was based on something other than the same shit they roll out every by-election. 

It's an impressive result, and a total vindication of their style of campaigning. gross.


----------



## redsquirrel (Dec 17, 2021)

killer b said:


> quite, it just looked like a boilerplate Lib Dem campaign to me, but for some reason everyone started repeating their C&P 'only the lib dems can beat the tories here!' stuff as if it was based on something other than the same shit they roll out every by-election.
> 
> It's an impressive result, and a total vindication of their style of campaigning. gross.


Unfortunately it's only going to encourage the progressive alliance dimwits


----------



## a_chap (Dec 17, 2021)

ska invita said:


> ....it was common knowledge a lib dem rout of the tories might be on the cards...






killer b said:


> How did this become 'common knowledge'?


----------



## ska invita (Dec 17, 2021)

a_chap said:


>



Amazing, I presumed this was a Tory/lib split rural seat like in the south west. Labour did fuck it royalty then, I stand corrected


----------



## killer b (Dec 17, 2021)

redsquirrel said:


> Unfortunately it's only going to encourage the progressive alliance dimwits


It'll encourage the dimwits, but it doesn't make an actual 'progressive' alliance any more likely - less so I'd say, cause it gives the LDs more leverage to demand they're the de facto challenger when divvying up seats.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 17, 2021)

Calamity1971 said:


> Interviewer on Sky News.. 'do you think BJ should resign' ?
> 
> Sir Keef. ' He needs to have a long hard word with himself '.
> Straight for the jugular there!


yeh i can picture boris johnson stumbling over antidisestablishmentarianism while looking in the mirror


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 17, 2021)

a_chap said:


>



ben there done that


----------



## TopCat (Dec 17, 2021)

Cue more shite in the Guardian on how Labour voters should embrace the Lib Dem’s and strive to rejoin the EU.


----------



## steeplejack (Dec 17, 2021)

It's no surprise, really. What incentive is there to vote for Labour when the leader won't even call for an increasingly loathed and busted flush PM, up to his neck in sleaze and rule-breaking, to resign? I imagine some bright young Oxbridge nerd is all over wormpolling and focus groups feeds stating that this approach is somehow "statesmanlike", but frankly no one else can understand it.

Corbyn had many flaws as a leader and potential PM but no one could ever say they didn't understand broadly what he stood for. Starmer is just an empty suit- an AI bot directionlessly churning out centrist platitudes wearing a 1990s suit.  

The risk is that whilst support for and belief in the Tories is showing signs of cratering, Labour are being seen as an opposition equally lacking in credibility- so crap that they can't land a punch on the worst PM and government in living memory. Party politics is increasingly a zombified activity as the hollowing out of actual democracy and accountability accelerates.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 24, 2021)

Just when it looked like he'd taken some trappist vow, here's what he wants to put out there:


(won't link as it's a Murdoch rag)


----------



## brogdale (Dec 24, 2021)

Yes, of course...it's tradition to celebrate the birth of Jesus with the butchersapron on your shoulder.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 24, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Just when it looked like he'd taken some trappist vow, here's what he wants to put out there:
> 
> View attachment 302667
> (won't link as it's a Murdoch rag)


----------



## MickiQ (Dec 24, 2021)

The underlying assumption being that Labour voters are listening to the Labour Party and will vote as suggested, recent by election results in North Shropshire and Hartlepool and above all the 2019 GE 'Red Wall'  tends to show the flaw in his logic.
It's just as likely that the people he's appealing to won't actually turn out and let the Tories back in with an even bigger majority. Tactical voting is the kind of thing that people need to decide to do for themselves, suggesting it from above doesn't tend to go down well.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 24, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> The underlying assumption being that Labour voters are listening to the Labour Party and will vote as suggested, recent by election results in North Shropshire and Hartlepool and above all the 2019 GE 'Red Wall'  tends to show the flaw in his logic.
> It's just as likely that the people he's appealing to won't actually turn out and let the Tories back in with an even bigger majority. Tactical voting is the kind of thing that people need to decide to do for themselves, suggesting it from above doesn't tend to go down well.


You can stand down candidates though , or at least not campaign


----------



## MickiQ (Dec 24, 2021)

ska invita said:


> You can stand down candidates though , or at least not campaign


It can but I think that is probably counter-productive, The Labour Party has to present itself as the party of the next Govt, not fighting 'un-winnable' seats smacks of defeatism not a good look for a party trying to convince people to let it govern.
There's no talk of the Tories not running a candidate in the safest Labour seats even though they're strong enough elsewhere to actually do it.
Besides whilst tactical voting at by-elections may be fun and send Boris a 'message' it hasn't actually changed anything. A GE is a whole different thing, Nick Clegg has probably killed off tactical voting at a national level for a generation.
If I was a Labour voter in a Tory seat that  the LibDems might win (I'm not), I think I would want a guarantee carved in stone and signed in blood that a Tory-LibDem coalition will never happen again.


----------



## tommers (Dec 24, 2021)

Exactly. All this “progressive“ (ugh) alliance stuff conveniently forgets that the last alliance that bunch were in was with the Tories.


----------



## Wilf (Dec 24, 2021)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> TBH I wouldn't be surprised if 'strong action on dog poo' is what emerges when he finally decides he needs a big idea.


Personally, I try to avoid having a 'stance' on dog poo.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 24, 2021)

Yes now that I no longer have a dog I find the stuff disgusting


----------



## Wilf (Dec 24, 2021)

So, we've had 2 weeks of Labour leads, leads the tories are entirely responsible for with, I'm guessing, not one ounce of pro-Labour sentiment in there.  Labour are ahead for no other reason than they are 'the other party'.


----------



## MickiQ (Dec 24, 2021)

Wilf said:


> So, we've had 2 weeks of Labour leads, leads the tories are entirely responsible for with, I'm guessing, not one ounce of pro-Labour sentiment in there.  Labour are ahead for no other reason than they are 'the other party'.


In order to have any chance of winning the next election, Labour have to completely re-invent themselves and probably need the LibDems to do the same, All the Tories have to do to increase their chances is get shut of Boris and replace him with someone else. This is the early 1980's all over again, I expect the Tories to be in power until well into the 2030's at least. I'm 65 next year in my more depessing moments it seems to me that there will likely be a Tory government for the rest of my life.


----------



## Wilf (Dec 24, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> In order to have any chance of winning the next election, Labour have to completely re-invent themselves and probably need the LibDems to do the same, All the Tories have to do to increase their chances is get shut of Boris and replace him with someone else. This is the early 1980's all over again, I expect the Tories to be in power until well into the 2030's at least. I'm 65 next year in my more depessing moments it seems to me that there will likely be a Tory government for the rest of my life.


Certainly some parallels to the early 80s, though Starmer is neither loved nor hated, just inert (so I'm not sure which party leader, Lab or Con, he resembles from recent decades).  But Labour's bigger problem is they don't have a political 'project'.  Their recent history and emergence from the Corbyn/Momentum era means that at the very time a confident, social democratic, redistributionist model is the one thing that would work, it's the very thing they won't promote.

But yeah, I'm 60 and I'm not convinced _I'll_ see another Labour government.  Having said that, whilst I'm absolutely confident we won't see Labour in power before 2029, it's not a good idea to even do guestimates beyond that.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 24, 2021)

Wilf said:


> Certainly some parallels to the early 80s, though Starmer is neither loved nor hated, just inert (so I'm not sure which party leader, Lab or Con, he resembles from recent decades).  But Labour's bigger problem is they don't have a political 'project'.  Their recent history and emergence from the Corbyn/Momentum era means that at the very time a confident, social democratic, redistributionist model is the one thing that would work, it's the very thing they won't promote.
> 
> But yeah, I'm 60 and I'm not convinced _I'll_ see another Labour government.  Having said that, whilst I'm absolutely confident we won't see Labour in power before 2029, it's not a good idea to even do guestimates beyond that.


Looks like Starmer is pinning his hopes on leading some sort of "progressive rainbow alliance" government.


----------



## Wilf (Dec 24, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Looks like Starmer is pinning his hopes on leading some sort of "progressive rainbow alliance" government.


What worries me is that there's now just about no conceivable scenario under which kieth gets replaced before 2024. Even the proverbial going under a bus wouldn't make much difference as he has about the same political impact, even now, as someone flattened by a Routemaster.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 24, 2021)

Despite obviously being influenced by seasonal goodwill, Tom makes an astute political point:


----------



## two sheds (Dec 24, 2021)

Incisive piece by Polly "he's got one last chance" Toynbee I felt (sorry I've not read it, just commenting on the headline)









						Starmer has scotched Labour’s negatives, now bring on the positives | Polly Toynbee
					

With the opposition leader ahead in the polls, it’s mission half-accomplished, says Guardian columnist Polly Toynbee




					www.theguardian.com
				




by "scotched Labour's negatives" I presume she actually means any semblance of left-wing democratic socialist policies.


----------



## elbows (Dec 24, 2021)

By positives she probably means positive coronavirus tests due to Labours feeble pandemic stance.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 24, 2021)

I note you didn't read it either


----------



## tommers (Dec 24, 2021)

I read it. I wouldn't.


----------



## tommers (Dec 24, 2021)

Actually can't even remember what it said.


----------



## Sue (Dec 24, 2021)

tommers said:


> Actually can't even remember what it said.


I haven't read it but I reckon a progressive alliance with the Lib Dems is the way forward


----------



## two sheds (Dec 24, 2021)

And that it's Labour's last chance.


----------



## MickiQ (Dec 24, 2021)

I read it, to describe it as a triumph of blind optimism over cold hard reality is being generous.
As others have mentioned any Labour gains are  entirely due to people finally  starting to rumble Boris for the useless fuckwit that he is. Kicking him out and replacing him with someone else (probably Sunak) and their poll numbers will soar again.


----------



## Chilli.s (Dec 24, 2021)

The country needs a few years of non tory coalitions. hopefully after a while having to agree with other people to get stuff done people will see things a bit less them and us and a bit more we.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 24, 2021)

Sue said:


> I haven't read it but I reckon a progressive alliance with the Lib Dems is the way forward


Like the tories but with no racism and that?


----------



## TopCat (Dec 24, 2021)

Chilli.s said:


> The country needs a few years of non tory coalitions. hopefully after a while having to agree with other people to get stuff done people will see things a bit less them and us and a bit more we.


Hohoho!


----------



## Sue (Dec 24, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Like the tories but with no racism and that?


Like the SDP


----------



## TopCat (Dec 24, 2021)

Sue said:


> Like the SDP


Exactly


----------



## steeplejack (Dec 24, 2021)

He looks like he's apologising for a damp and eggy fart without actually mentioning it


----------



## two sheds (Dec 24, 2021)

The woman next to him is withstanding it stoically


----------



## Dom Traynor (Dec 25, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Like the tories but with no racism and that?


No just a softer kinder racism


----------



## Nine Bob Note (Dec 25, 2021)

Flowery woman may not have got the memo on the dress code for Starmer's new top team, but the writing is very much on the wall


----------



## Sue (Dec 25, 2021)

Nine Bob Note said:


> Flowery woman may not have got the memo on the dress code for Starmer's new top team, but the writing is very much on the wall


Navy blue kind of sums the whole thing up.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Dec 25, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> I read it, to describe it as a triumph of blind optimism over cold hard reality is being generous.



The weird thing about Toynbee's mad optimism is that it's with such an incredibly mediocre end in mind. I mean if you're going down that route surely you can come up with better than a nicer haircut and competent management as the fruits of the promised land.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 25, 2021)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> The weird thing about Toynbee's mad optimism is that it's with such an incredibly mediocre end in mind. I mean if you're going down that route surely you can come up with better than a nicer haircut and competent management as the fruits of the promised land.



Remember these are the opinions of someone who is doing just fine for themselves as it is. Someone for whom the current tory misrule is only a problem for aesthetic reasons and does not represent an existential threat in the same way it does to so many people.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Dec 25, 2021)

Toynbee is full of shit.


----------



## goldenecitrone (Dec 25, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Looks like Starmer is pinning his hopes on leading some sort of "progressive rainbow alliance" government.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 26, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Remember these are the opinions of someone who is doing just fine for themselves as it is. Someone for whom the current tory misrule is only a problem for aesthetic reasons and does not represent an existential threat in the same way it does to so many people.


This


----------



## TopCat (Dec 26, 2021)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> Toynbee is full of shit.


Great summary of the above.


----------



## Rob Ray (Dec 26, 2021)

Labour’s Rachel Reeves: ‘We are in the strongest position maybe in 10 years’
					

The shadow chancellor says it has been an odd time in politics but there are grounds for Labour optimism




					www.theguardian.com
				




They're all coming out of the woodwork now aren't they, Rachael "we'll be tougher on the unemployed than the Tories" Reeves, Miliband loyalist, Remainer extraordinaire, scourge of anti-semitism and Nancy Astor fan, in her infinite wisdom reckons Labour's doing its best in ten years. When it had lost an election and more than 90 seats to David Cameron.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 27, 2021)

Meet the new failed opposition, same as the old failed opposition.


----------



## 19sixtysix (Dec 27, 2021)

New labour is back oozing poverty of ambition on everything that matters.


----------



## steveseagull (Dec 28, 2021)

Starmer now popular with 9/10 Jewish members he has not hounded out of the party


----------



## PR1Berske (Dec 28, 2021)

> David Lammy has apologised for nominating Jeremy Corbyn to be Labour leader in 2015 and said he is “staggered” that some individuals with deeply antisemitic views remain in the Labour party.
> 
> Speaking at this year’s Limmud festival, a Jewish event, the shadow foreign secretary said he “never believed” Corbyn would become leader and that his nomination was “a mistake”.
> 
> ...


----------



## Rob Ray (Jan 4, 2022)

Sir Keir Starmer vows to restore trust if he wins power
					

The Labour leader seeks to build on his party's poll lead in a new year speech setting out his vision.



					www.bbc.co.uk
				




Absolutely incredible stuff. Manages to hark back to the sloganeering of Brown, the solemn contract of Miliband, and place Blair as a Labour titan alongside Attlee and Wilson all in one sitting. And was still so utterly banal in his Big Policies that the Tories could dismiss him, rightly, for "New year, same old platitudes" and not having anything resembling a plan.


----------



## two sheds (Jan 4, 2022)

I think we can all get behind this though  

He said: "I believe that the best still lies ahead for this country. But only if we have the courage to create a new Britain. A country in which you and your family get the security, prosperity and respect you deserve."


----------



## Quote (Jan 4, 2022)

Top Tip: Buy yourself a used shop dummy, put him in a suit, stick a Union Jack behind him & re-arrange the same handful of trite platitudes on a lectern at the front - hey presto! You've got yourself a homemade _Sir Kier Starmer relaunch_ relauncher. Hours of fun for all the family!


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 4, 2022)

Quote said:


> Top Tip: Buy yourself a used shop dummy, put him in a suit, stick a Union Jack behind him & re-arrange the same handful of trite platitudes on a lectern at the front - hey presto! You've got yourself a homemade _Sir Kier Starmer relaunch_ relauncher. Hours of fun for all the family!


Sounds livelier than the real labour leader


----------



## brogdale (Jan 4, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> Sir Keir Starmer vows to restore trust if he wins power
> 
> 
> The Labour leader seeks to build on his party's poll lead in a new year speech setting out his vision.
> ...


As you say, quite incredible:



Not a nationalist party, but a national party for Britain...in fact, a British National...


----------



## splonkydoo (Jan 4, 2022)

No way will I listen to that speech, so I will just take John's word for it.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jan 5, 2022)

splonkydoo said:


> No way will I listen to that speech, so I will just take John's word for it.
> 
> 
> View attachment 304507


Weird. Wouldn’t McDonnell and others demand that Starmer commit to and promote what are, I assume, Labour policies?


----------



## magneze (Jan 5, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Weird. Wouldn’t McDonnell and others demand that Starmer commit to and promote what are, I assume, Labour policies?


He's not opposing the policies?


----------



## gosub (Jan 5, 2022)

Sir Keir Starmer tests positive for Covid for a second time
					

Labour's leader misses Prime Minister's Questions, with deputy Angela Rayner filling in for him.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## elbows (Jan 5, 2022)

gosub said:


> Sir Keir Starmer tests positive for Covid for a second time
> 
> 
> Labour's leader misses Prime Minister's Questions, with deputy Angela Rayner filling in for him.
> ...


At least he can gain comfort from the fact that there was at least one fan of his recent speech, the virus.


----------



## steveseagull (Jan 5, 2022)

Doesn't he always contract COVID or has to self isolate after a relaunch?


----------



## elbows (Jan 5, 2022)

steveseagull said:


> Doesn't he always contract COVID or has to self isolate after a relaunch?


Some wear baseball caps or boast that they drink 127 pints in order to demonstrate that they are a normal person, Keir demonstrates his human credentials by catching the virus.


----------



## GarveyLives (Jan 5, 2022)

*"Completely wrong" ... according to a former Director of Public Prosecutions.*​


----------



## kabbes (Jan 6, 2022)

Pity poor Keith, for he is a triangulator.


----------



## Chilli.s (Jan 6, 2022)

a cheese triangle


----------



## steeplejack (Jan 6, 2022)

bland as a Dairylea Lite triangle with the same nasty aftertase & acidic reflux


----------



## steeplejack (Jan 6, 2022)

Still maybe boredom-as-political-practice may be a winning strategy after a decade of populist far-right chaos. The middle classes can get back to obsessing over buy to let investments whilst the few who still bother with the _Telegraph_ and _Spectator_ can vigorously chop one out into their morning kedgeree over endless "Sir Kier brings back the 1950s" op-eds

_Vote For A Good Sleep with Kier Starmer

Achingly Dull Tax Reform_ (a conference fringe meeting sponsored by _Slumberland_ and _Travel Lodge UK)

Moderate Progress for a Moderate, Hard Working Nation

Middle of the Road Policies for Middle of the Road Hard Working Families

There's Merit in Mediocrity, You Know_ (boozy conference 'provocateur' slot chaired by Sir Stephen Fry)

_Rebuilding the "Red" Wall in a Grey Shade of Fuschia

How Green Was My Platitude Valley_ (The Richard Llewellyn Memorial Lecture sponsored by ExxonMobil)

_Portesting in the Right Way, Which Means Not Very Much at All _(speech by Lord Kinnock)

the empty slogan possibilities are literally endless


----------



## ska invita (Jan 6, 2022)

kabbes said:


> Pity poor Keith, for he is a triangulator.


minus the left corner of the triangle...more of a plank really


----------



## Chilli.s (Jan 6, 2022)

steeplejack said:


> Vote For A Good Sleep with Kier Starmer


lmfao


----------



## elbows (Jan 7, 2022)




----------



## two sheds (Jan 7, 2022)

Johnson's finished  Starmer has him over a barrel









						Starmer the lawyer is back – and this time Johnson has nowhere to run | Zoe Williams
					

The Labour leader has blocked every possible exit for the Conservatives, who are now stuck with a duff prime minister and a broken party




					www.theguardian.com
				






> The Labour leader has blocked every exit for the Conservatives, who are stuck with a duff prime minister and a broken party





> Starmer’s speech, perhaps for the first time since he became leader, performed a jujitsu move: yes he is a lawyer, and Johnson could have at it. He conveyed this explicitly, his patriotism mediated through his hinterland as the “country’s leading prosecutor”. He also did so implicitly, framing his relationship with voters as a “contract” – about as lawyerly as it comes. And he laid a very simple, yet nevertheless lawyerly trap for Johnson: the prime minister himself is unfit for office, yet the problem is with the entire party, not just one man.



finished  using jujitsu


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## elbows (Jan 8, 2022)

two sheds said:


> finished  using jujitsu


----------



## not a trot (Jan 9, 2022)

Written above the urinals in local Tesco bog.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jan 9, 2022)

not a trot said:


> Written above the urinals in local Tesco bog.



is that part of the 'big starma' conspiracy theory?


----------



## keybored (Jan 10, 2022)




----------



## two sheds (Jan 10, 2022)

keep socialists away rather


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jan 10, 2022)

There's a lovely diagram of Labour spending on public health going around but I've now just remembered PFI as a result.


----------



## Humberto (Jan 10, 2022)

Why can't we have more working class representatives?


----------



## Humberto (Jan 10, 2022)

Politicians are only good at one thing, brazening out media interviews and doing fuck all. 

Two things...


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jan 10, 2022)

Humberto said:


> Politicians are only good at one thing, brazening out media interviews and doing fuck all.
> 
> Two things...



the convenor of the penguin food co-operative may disagree here


----------



## Dom Traynor (Jan 12, 2022)

Any other leader would be 20 points ahead by now


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jan 14, 2022)

JTG said:


> Unity update:
> Loads of officers, including the chair, of Bristol West CLP suspended because they debated - and passed - a motion in support of JC. Bristol area has been a bit feisty lately anyway with an upsurge in rumblings against SW Regional Office and their right wing control freakery. One particularly eye catching complaint is that Regional prevented Kingswood CLP from making donations to ACORN community union and local foodbanks, on the grounds that they were "inappropriate"
> 
> NB: Bristol West is a great example of a marginal seat in 2015 becoming extremely safe on a 30 point swing in '17. Suspect the Greens will be excited to see Bristol Labour in turmoil. Bristol CC is Labour controlled with 37/70 seats but I make around 12 of those vulnerable to even a small drop in Labour support next May.


The Bristol West CLP Secretary Darran McLaughlin has now been unsuspended:


----------



## Rob Ray (Jan 15, 2022)

A Tory party mired in scandal can’t fix the NHS – but a Labour government can | Keir Starmer
					

We will fix the damage the Conservatives have done to our health system, and deliver a renewed NHS, says Keir Starmer, leader of the Labour party




					www.theguardian.com
				




Easiest slam dunk in the history of re-nationalisation/kicking private sector vultures out of a simplified health system and Keith's busily avoiding any mention of the word in favour of blather about "forensic investment."


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## magneze (Jan 15, 2022)

OMG, it does actually mention forensic investment. I thought that was a joke.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jan 17, 2022)

Reactionary, ignorant drivel from that revisionist renegade Starmer. Pandering to morons who won't vote for him anyway lol


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Jan 17, 2022)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Reactionary, ignorant drivel from that revisionist renegade Starmer. Pandering to morons who won't vote for him anyway lol



Tbf the bloke is a complete prannet.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jan 17, 2022)

Starmer on rising energy bills: “I’m not in favour of nationalisation” – LabourList
					

Keir Starmer has declared that he is "not in favour of nationalisation" when rejecting the idea that energy companies should be taken into UK public…




					labourlist.org
				




another one of the leadership pledges broken...


----------



## teqniq (Jan 17, 2022)

Fucking waste of space.


----------



## ruffneck23 (Jan 17, 2022)

The blokes a bit dim isnt he....

Think of the tax
Think of getting rid of county lines gangs
Think of the extra revenue from cakes


----------



## Johnny Vodka (Jan 17, 2022)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Reactionary, ignorant drivel from that revisionist renegade Starmer. Pandering to morons who won't vote for him anyway lol




What a fucking beige Tory-lite cunt he is.


----------



## Funky_monks (Jan 17, 2022)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Reactionary, ignorant drivel from that revisionist renegade Starmer. Pandering to morons who won't vote for him anyway lol



Weirdly, I can see the Tories legalising cannabis before Starmer's Labour ever even moot it. 

 - Its becoming more and more legal across the US and (white) people have made $$$ and the Tories love the American model. 
- Bread and circuses.


----------



## Johnny Vodka (Jan 19, 2022)

An interview with Starmer in The Guardian today, for those who can stomach it.









						‘Stop talking about the problem – fix the bloody thing!’ Keir Starmer on Boris Johnson’s parties and his plan to win power
					

With Labour ahead in the polls and the prime minister on the ropes, the former lawyer is riding high. But can he finally connect with the country?




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Chilli.s (Jan 19, 2022)

When Starmer is asked about labour he says he didn't even know it was a party


----------



## Rob Ray (Jan 19, 2022)

Johnny Vodka said:


> An interview with Starmer in The Guardian today, for those who can stomach it.


Hattenstone has his tongue so far up Starmer's arse there I'm surprised he could see his keyboard to type up the interview. 

Though even so, while trying to sideswipe Corbyn he still manages to illustrate Starmer's utter vacancy.


> His office is huge and bland. With Corbyn, it was easy to play Through the Keyhole. His office was full of giveaways: file after ancient file documenting radical causes; Stop the War posters; a historical Islington Trade Council banner; multicoloured tequilas from Venezuela. Today, there is nothing that shouts Starmer.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 19, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> Hattenstone has his tongue so far up Starmer's arse there I'm surprised he could see his keyboard to type up the interview.
> 
> Though even so, while trying to sideswipe Corbyn he still manages to illustrate Starmer's utter vacancy.


The nothing that shouts shammer is what shouts shammer


----------



## PR1Berske (Jan 19, 2022)




----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jan 19, 2022)

momentum is not impressed with today's defection


----------



## PR1Berske (Jan 19, 2022)




----------



## steveo87 (Jan 19, 2022)

ruffneck23 said:


> Think of the extra revenue from cakes


What a fucking epic episode of Bake Off that would be! Defo would watch Mary Berry (I think) getting blitzed on Space Cakes made by a mechanic from Bromley.


----------



## Carvaged (Jan 19, 2022)

PR1Berske said:


>




His seat would almost certainly fall to Labour again in the next election. So this seems like a reasonable tactic for someone who wants to stay in Parliament.


----------



## PR1Berske (Jan 19, 2022)




----------



## platinumsage (Jan 19, 2022)

ruffneck23 said:


> The blokes a bit dim isnt he....
> 
> Think of the tax
> Think of getting rid of county lines gangs
> Think of the extra revenue from cakes



Cakes are zero-rated for VAT, so there wouldn't be any additional revenue from increased consumption.


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## gosub (Jan 19, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> Cakes are zero-rated for VAT, so there wouldn't be any additional revenue from increased consumption.


they would definitly tax hash cakes were they legal


----------



## Johnny Vodka (Jan 19, 2022)




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## Balbi (Jan 19, 2022)

Wakeford winning the seat in 2019 because Ivan Lewis quit Labour claiming it was antisemitic (coincidentally as he was being investigated for sexual harassment of a teenager iirc) stood as an independent to ensure he got the sweet payoff but then endorsed Wakeford when he realised his candidacy could let a Labour candidate win.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jan 19, 2022)

"Local party powers reduced under new Labour guidance for selecting candidates"









						Local party powers reduced under new Labour guidance for selecting candidates – LabourList
					

New guidance issued by Labour for selecting parliamentary candidates ahead of the next general election is set to take powers away from local members –…




					labourlist.org
				




party HQ will be electing a new membership soon...


ETA - this has dated well...


----------



## Rob Ray (Jan 20, 2022)

Rachael Reeves in the FT today, casually smearing every leftish and working class person who's quit the party as an anti-semite while actually just saying the "big tent" of Labour should only ever involve everyone shutting up and following orders from the party right.


----------



## NoXion (Jan 20, 2022)

PR1Berske said:


>




Way to hammer home the idea that you couldn't fit a Rizla paper between the two parties.

aIn'T bRiTiSh dEmoCrAcy gReAt?!


----------



## Johnny Vodka (Jan 20, 2022)

NoXion said:


> Way to hammer home the idea that you couldn't fit a Rizla paper between the two parties.



And definitely not without Starmer or Bojo calling 999.


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## The39thStep (Jan 20, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> Rachael Reeves in the FT today, casually smearing every leftish and working class person who's quit the party as an anti-semite while actually just saying the "big tent" of Labour should only ever involve everyone shutting up and following orders from the party right.
> 
> View attachment 306728


They don’t need or want a mass membership . Business model relies on a phone bank asking for donations . 
Interestingly enough the Democrats in the States marginalised but didn’t purge the left     and had them out doing the legwork where their phone banks couldn’t extend .


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## The39thStep (Jan 20, 2022)




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## killer b (Jan 20, 2022)

He's not wrong mind


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jan 20, 2022)

killer b said:


> He's not wrong mind



He's even more right now than he was at the time.


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## Chz (Jan 20, 2022)

He fits in perfectly then.
Edit: Damnit, pipped to it.


----------



## Raheem (Jan 20, 2022)

He probably didn't mean it in a _bad_ way.


----------



## PR1Berske (Jan 20, 2022)




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## Balbi (Jan 20, 2022)

It's a beautiful moment for everyone who's correctly gone "Starmers Labour has become more Tory" as the Tory MP insists he hasn't changed at all, and Rachel Reeves says him joining shows that Labour has changed, because even a single moments interrogation of those two as a pair means you ask "So Labour in 2021 is like the Tories in 2019, which is why Wakeford can join?"

Clown party, anyone left wing still involved is just gonna get treated like shit, begged to campaign for them and then blamed when it all goes fucking wrong. We're just stuck between 2010 and 2015 forever.


----------



## Calamity1971 (Jan 21, 2022)




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## PR1Berske (Jan 22, 2022)




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## tommers (Jan 22, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> Rachael Reeves in the FT today, casually smearing every leftish and working class person who's quit the party as an anti-semite while actually just saying the "big tent" of Labour should only ever involve everyone shutting up and following orders from the party right.
> 
> View attachment 306728


Well. There you go.


----------



## Chilli.s (Jan 22, 2022)

Keith rattling his saber coz wars are started by politicians failing at diplomacy not people wanting to fight for a cause.


----------



## Rob Ray (Jan 22, 2022)

Keith promising to make Britain the hardest place in the world to launder money makes me wonder if he's ever actually lived here.


----------



## teqniq (Jan 22, 2022)

Hapless Keith seems to have an unfortunate knack for walking into cringeworthy photo opportunities with equally cringeworthy commentary:


----------



## Shechemite (Jan 22, 2022)




----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jan 23, 2022)

This rightwing reactionary Tory cunt Rachel Reeves is well known for her hatred of ‘benefit scroungers’ and we remember her bragging that she would be tougher than the Tories on ‘welfare cheats’. She also got her House of Commons expenses credit card cancelled after she racked up a > £4k debt on it. Worthless lump of fucking shit.









						Iain Duncan Smith among 19 MPs to have official credit card suspended
					

Work and pensions secretary and his opposite number, Rachel Reeves, among MPs subject to action after failing to show spending was valid




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 23, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> Rachael Reeves in the FT today, casually smearing every leftish and working class person who's quit the party as an anti-semite while actually just saying the "big tent" of Labour should only ever involve everyone shutting up and following orders from the party right.
> 
> View attachment 306728



Reeves' promotion back to the front bench marks the point where I go from maybe being willing to vote labour for tactical reasons to no way in hell I'll vote for them. She's a dangerous fanatic.


----------



## hitmouse (Jan 23, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> Rachael Reeves in the FT today, casually smearing every leftish and working class person who's quit the party as an anti-semite while actually just saying the "big tent" of Labour should only ever involve everyone shutting up and following orders from the party right.
> 
> View attachment 306728


Perhaps it's just what any political organisation has to say about people who leave, but I can't help thinking that Reeves claiming that Corbyn et al "never shared our values" is oddly reminiscent of 2013-era SWP loyalists explaining that Ian Birchall and all the rest just never really grasped democratic centralism?


----------



## ska invita (Jan 23, 2022)

SpookyFrank said:


> Reeves' promotion back to the front bench marks the point where I go from maybe being willing to vote labour for tactical reasons to no way in hell I'll vote for them. She's a dangerous fanatic.




Unless you live in a swing seat there is no tactical reason to vote Labour


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 23, 2022)

ska invita said:


> Unless you live in a swing seat there is no tactical reason to vote Labour



Tough one to call, labour seat but not the safest one and it's due to have a sizeable working class area chopped out and given to the neighbouring tory consituency.


----------



## Knotted (Jan 23, 2022)

Well it looks like Johnson might just be able to cling onto power. Which means Starmer is probably the next prime minister.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 23, 2022)

ska invita said:


> Unless you live in a swing seat there is no tactical reason to vote Labour


I expect more seats may swing than you suggest


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 23, 2022)

Jeff Robinson said:


> This rightwing reactionary Tory cunt Rachel Reeves is well known for her hatred of ‘benefit scroungers’ and we remember her bragging that she would be tougher than the Tories on ‘welfare cheats’. She also got her House of Commons expenses credit card cancelled after she racked up a > £4k debt on it. Worthless lump of fucking shit.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Shit has value as any gardener will tell you

Reeves on the other hand...


----------



## Raheem (Jan 23, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> Shit has value as any gardener will tell you
> 
> Reeves on the other hand...


...should be mulched.


----------



## PR1Berske (Jan 24, 2022)

Jeff Robinson said:


> This rightwing reactionary Tory cunt Rachel Reeves is well known for her hatred of ‘benefit scroungers’ and we remember her bragging that she would be tougher than the Tories on ‘welfare cheats’. She also got her House of Commons expenses credit card cancelled after she racked up a > £4k debt on it. Worthless lump of fucking shit.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I've had this bookmarked for years:











						Labour will be tougher than Tories on benefits, vows Rachel Reeves
					

New shadow work and pensions minister says party will cut welfare bill and force long-term unemployed to take up work offers or lose support




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## PR1Berske (Jan 30, 2022)




----------



## AmateurAgitator (Jan 30, 2022)

PR1Berske said:


>



Is this about her transphobia? I hear she's been living 200 miles away from her constituency (Canterbury) in Wales I think. Wouldn't surprise me if she joined the Tories or the LibDems, not that there's too much difference between them and Labour at all.


----------



## brogdale (Jan 30, 2022)

AmateurAgitator said:


> Is this about her transphobia? I hear she's been living 200 miles away from her constituency (Canterbury) in Wales I think. Wouldn't surprise me if she joined the Tories or the LibDems, not that there's too much difference between them and Labour at all.


Her constituency party are also losing ground to the Greens and recently lost (Gorrel) Whit central to them. Can't see Cant staying Lab.


----------



## belboid (Jan 30, 2022)

AmateurAgitator said:


> Is this about her transphobia?


apparently not:
"just to be clear, this issue in no way relates to my stance on women's rights. I need support from the @UKLabour  in Kent and against the constant stream of fictional and factional bile that is written about me."


----------



## Balbi (Jan 30, 2022)

iirc duffield won Canterbury on an amazing swing in 2017 and had a huge heap of people come out from all over the country to campaign for her in 2019, at which point she bagged the leadership immediately before the election and has fucked around in various ways ever since

she knows she doesn't win in 2024


----------



## agricola (Jan 30, 2022)

AmateurAgitator said:


> Is this about her transphobia? I hear she's been living 200 miles away from her constituency (Canterbury) in Wales I think. Wouldn't surprise me if she joined the Tories or the LibDems, not that there's too much difference between them and Labour at all.



according to the Guardian her other half is filming a documentary on Wrexham FC, after they were taken over by Deadpool and a bloke from "Its always sunny in Philadelphia".


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jan 30, 2022)

Starmerite Revisionism exposed and smashed!


----------



## splonkydoo (Jan 31, 2022)

Meanwhile, JC was delivering a keynote address in Derry....


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Jan 31, 2022)

I'll give him this. He's actually giving a pretty good response to Johnson's '_sorry but it wasn't totally my fault and isn't the vaccine rollout great'_ statement.


----------



## ruffneck23 (Jan 31, 2022)

Yeah, that wasnt bad, now shit head is bringing up jimmy savile, wow what the actual fuck


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jan 31, 2022)

Doctor Carrot said:


> I'll give him this. He's actually giving a pretty good response to Johnson's '_sorry but it wasn't totally my fault and isn't the vaccine rollout great'_ statement.



If the much touted forensic lawyerliness is good for anything at all it should be this shouldn't it. If he can't manage to land a few here then he really is totally pointless.


----------



## PR1Berske (Jan 31, 2022)

ruffneck23 said:


> Yeah, that wasnt bad, now shit head is bringing up jimmy savile, wow what the actual fuck


Dead Cat, innit.


----------



## two sheds (Jan 31, 2022)

So was he involved in the drug taking that Johnson's accused his front bench of? I think we should be told, with evidence. Would be slander wouldn't it if there weren't parliamentary privilege, it should be repeated outside parliament.


----------



## elbows (Jan 31, 2022)

two sheds said:


> So was he involved in the drug taking that Johnson's accused his front bench of? I think we should be told, with evidence. Would be slander wouldn't it if there weren't parliamentary privilege, it should be repeated outside parliament.



It will probably turn out that Keir once took slightly more paracetamol than the leaflet said he should. 

Alternatively he once simulated the construction of a Camberwell carrot during a Withnail-themed public prosecutors party.


----------



## friedaweed (Feb 7, 2022)




----------



## belboid (Feb 7, 2022)

Utterly shocking story

Starmer rescued from angry demonstrators by police​*Keir Starmer* has been put into a police car after being surrounded by protesters near the Houses of Parliament, the Sun’s *Jack Elsom *reports.



A Labour source says the people having a go at Starmer were anti-vaxx demonstrators.




People actually wanted to talk to Starmer!  Whatever next?


----------



## belboid (Feb 7, 2022)

friedaweed said:


>



ach, beat me by seconds!


----------



## bluescreen (Feb 7, 2022)

belboid said:


> ach, beat me by seconds!


Stirred up by Johnson's shameless repetition of the far right slur.


----------



## Badgers (Feb 7, 2022)

#ToryScum 😡


----------



## elbows (Feb 7, 2022)

bluescreen said:


> Stirred up by Johnson's shameless repetition of the far right slur.


If we stretch the comparisons of Johnson to Trump, then the media could yet turn this into Johnsons equivalent of idiots storming the Capitol building after being stirred up by Trump.


----------



## PR1Berske (Feb 7, 2022)

Was about to post the same tweet. 

Very unsavoury scenes.


----------



## magneze (Feb 7, 2022)

If nothing else, another couple of letters of no confidence may go in as a result.


----------



## bluescreen (Feb 7, 2022)

elbows said:


> If we stretch the comparisons of Johnson to Trump, then the media could yet turn this into Johnsons equivalent of idiots storming the Capitol building after being stirred up by Trump.


Tbf, it's been reported that far right groups were celebrating that Johnson had repeated their meme. No one's suggesting that mobbing Starmer is the equivalent of storming the Capitol but it does seem to have been dangerous for the individual in question.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 7, 2022)

magneze said:


> If nothing else, another couple of letters of no confidence may go in as a result.


Yes, in the short-term this has the capacity to do at least as much damage to blustercunt.


----------



## rekil (Feb 7, 2022)

That Larry David unsure gif.


----------



## elbows (Feb 7, 2022)

bluescreen said:


> Tbf, it's been reported that far right groups were celebrating that Johnson had repeated their meme. No one's suggesting that mobbing Starmer is the equivalent of storming the Capitol but it does seem to have been dangerous for the individual in question.


To be clear, I want the media and others to use that sort of framing.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 7, 2022)

Guardian headline is "protestors surround him ..." rather than "anti-vaxxers surround him ..." I note


----------



## bluescreen (Feb 7, 2022)

elbows said:


> To be clear, I want the media and others to use that sort of framing.


Sorry, I misunderstood. I thought you were suggesting it was an overreaction. I don't think it was, either. It feels like just the start of something ugly.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 7, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Guardian headline is "protestors surround him ..." rather than "anti-vaxxers surround him ..." I note


Even anti-vaxxers can be protestors


----------



## PR1Berske (Feb 7, 2022)




----------



## two sheds (Feb 7, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> Even anti-vaxxers can be protestors



Makes them sound almost human though


----------



## friedaweed (Feb 7, 2022)

elbows said:


> If we stretch the comparisons of Johnson to Trump, then the media could yet turn this into Johnsons equivalent of idiots storming the Capitol building after being stirred up by Trump.


I don't think you need to stretch it that far at all these days. The lazzy band hardly comes under pressure for me. The buffoons are almost one of a kind in their tactics. Now his back's against the wall Johnson is very much proving himself to be the nasty little shit that we knew Donald was all along.

I suspect we'll see more of this sort of thing the longer he stays in the bunker.


----------



## elbows (Feb 7, 2022)

bluescreen said:


> Sorry, I misunderstood. I thought you were suggesting it was an overreaction. I don't think it was, either. It feels like just the start of something ugly.


Thats my own fault for the words I used in that post.

I've been waiting to see if Johnson ended up stumbling into his equivalent of the Capital riots for some time, and as soon as he made the Savile comments it did cross my mind that this could be it.

But when I discuss that sort of thing I usually dont avoid language that reveals my feelings about how hilarious some of the framing ends up being. ie with the Capitol riots we had to endure all sorts of overblown sentiments about the desecration of sacred symbolic objects of their amazing system of democracy. I'm a bit sarcastic about the qualities of that system, and the media is one of the pillars of that poor excuse for democracy. I'm going to cheer when the weight of those things gets turned against the likes of Trump and Johnson, but I'll not miss to opportunity to poke fun at the whole shebang and my desire to see it all gone.


----------



## elbows (Feb 7, 2022)

friedaweed said:


> I suspect we'll see more of this sort of thing the longer he stays in the bunker.


I think that could go either way. We know that Johnsons populist instincts lean in that direction, but the dynamics between him and his party are not the same as Trump and the republicans, and after losing the election Trump didnt have much else left to lose. One potential survival technique for Johnson involves reigning that stuff in rather than doubling down on that shit. So I dont know if we will really see operation save big dog whistle now that Johnsons team is being dismantled and rebuilt. Tories arent allergic to dog whistle shit but I think they prefer a slightly subtler form of it, and probably crave some stability and some actual policies right now.


----------



## Plumdaff (Feb 7, 2022)

It goes without saying that this is a horrible incident.

But it also has to be said that we have had half a decade of the most baseless smears and innuendo being spread about certain politicians without the slightest concern by the media, joined and egged on by their friends in the Labour right. And if you encourage a culture in which any old shit can be peddled about easy targets, people you don't like, don't be surprised if the same shit is used against you and yours by the unsavoury wankers who always had the most to gain from this.

eta. I am not saying there were no valid concerns or criticisms of anyone on the Labour or wider left in the last five years. I just think once you're shouting about Czech spies and opening labour camps on election day you've lost all contact with reality.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 7, 2022)

You'd hope this would give him pause for thought and he might call a truce on the war on the left in the party. Won't hold my breath though.


----------



## friedaweed (Feb 7, 2022)

elbows said:


> I think that could go either way. We know that Johnsons populist instincts lean in that direction, but the dynamics between him and his party are not the same as Trump and the republicans, and after losing the election Trump didnt have much else left to lose. One potential survival technique for Johnson involves reigning that stuff in rather than doubling down on that shit. So I dont know if we will rally see operation save big dog whistle now that Johnsons team is being dismantled and rebuilt. Tories arent allergic to dog whistle shit but I think they prefer a slightly subtler form of it, and probably crave some stability and some actual policies right now.


Yeah I agree but Johnson's a narcissist who clearly isn't in this for the party end game. It's his one shot. After this what else is there, children's television?


----------



## elbows (Feb 7, 2022)

friedaweed said:


> Yeah I agree but Johnson's a narcissist who clearly isn't in this for the party end game. It's his one shot. After this what else is there, children's television?


Destination America and Fox news, and/or a wrestling tag team with Farage.


----------



## PR1Berske (Feb 7, 2022)

Boris speaks....


----------



## eatmorecheese (Feb 7, 2022)

PR1Berske said:


> Boris speaks....



Like it had nothing to do with him.


----------



## elbows (Feb 7, 2022)

> After the incident at Westminster, Labour London Mayor Sadiq Khan tweeted: "This is what happens when fake news is amplified and given credibility by people who should know better."
> 
> And Conservative MP Julian Smith tweeted: "What happened to Keir Starmer tonight outside Parliament is appalling. It is really important for our democracy & for his security that the false Savile slurs made against him are withdrawn in full."



From Keir Starmer: Two arrested after protesters surround Labour leader

Smith had previous tweeted this on Feb 1:


----------



## RileyOBlimey (Feb 7, 2022)

If Starmer gets lynched and Boris booted, I could live with that.


----------



## killer b (Feb 7, 2022)

I watched the video, and while it's funny that Johnson will get it in the neck over this, it's not really true that he's directly responsible for it, like everyone is breathlessly saying on twitter. Those guys aren't Boris Johnson stans, and their beef is old - they'd have done exactly the same to Starmer if they'd come across him tonight regardless of what Johnson said in parliament last week. Also the paedo defender stuff must've been pretty low in the mix cause all I could hear was the usual crap about magna carta rights and some bits about Julian Assange? Either way it looks to me like there's a bit of an opportunity being taken here. I guess you would wouldn't you?


----------



## friedaweed (Feb 7, 2022)

killer b said:


> I watched the video, and while it's funny that Johnson will get it in the neck over this, it's not really true that he's directly responsible for it, like everyone is breathlessly saying on twitter. Those guys aren't Boris Johnson stans, and their beef is old - they'd have done exactly the same to Starmer if they'd come across him tonight regardless of what Johnson said in parliament last week. Also the paedo defender stuff must've been pretty low in the mix cause all I could hear was the usual crap about magna carta rights and some bits about Julian Assange? Either way it looks to me like there's a bit of an opportunity being taken here. I guess you would wouldn't you?


They wouldn't have done "exactly the same to Starmer" if Johnson hadn't armed them with what he said in parliament last week though would they? Its designed to inflame dickwads like this so the falsehood gets traction is it not?


----------



## killer b (Feb 7, 2022)

friedaweed said:


> They wouldn't have done "exactly the same to Starmer" if Johnson hadn't armed them with what he said in parliament last week though would they? Its designed to inflame dickwads like this so the falsehood gets traction is it not?


These are the same guys who've been hanging round there harassing MPs for a couple of years. The same guys who climbed up the BBC to smash up the paedo statue the other week. They're already at it, Johnson hasn't inflamed them.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Feb 7, 2022)

killer b said:


> I watched the video, and while it's funny that Johnson will get it in the neck over this, it's not really true that he's directly responsible for it, like everyone is breathlessly saying on twitter. Those guys aren't Boris Johnson stans, and their beef is old - they'd have done exactly the same to Starmer if they'd come across him tonight regardless of what Johnson said in parliament last week. Also the paedo defender stuff must've been pretty low in the mix cause all I could hear was the usual crap about magna carta rights and some bits about Julian Assange? Either way it looks to me like there's a bit of an opportunity being taken here. I guess you would wouldn't you?


Not sure if there are multiple clips going round, but the one I just watched it was all pretty audible and clear.


----------



## Wilf (Feb 7, 2022)

killer b said:


> I watched the video, and while it's funny that Johnson will get it in the neck over this, it's not really true that he's directly responsible for it, like everyone is breathlessly saying on twitter. Those guys aren't Boris Johnson stans, and their beef is old - they'd have done exactly the same to Starmer if they'd come across him tonight regardless of what Johnson said in parliament last week. Also the paedo defender stuff must've been pretty low in the mix cause all I could hear was the usual crap about magna carta rights and some bits about Julian Assange? Either way it looks to me like there's a bit of an opportunity being taken here. I guess you would wouldn't you?


I think the worst bit about it is not that johnson actually thinks Starmer bears some responsibility for savile getting away with it - he doesn't.  It's that his world is one where that really doesn't matter. He's in a corner so he's happy to fling whatever shit is to hand.  As it turns out, it was a pretty bad call to do that and his populist instincts don't seem that popular on this one.   Anyway, you may be right that Starmer just stumbled across a pre-organised loon-athon, but johnson parroting their non(ce)sense is at least in the mix.


----------



## Wilf (Feb 7, 2022)

RileyOBlimey said:


> If Starmer gets lynched and Boris booted, I could live with that.


To be fair, I'd be happy with any version 'either', 'and' or 'or'.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Feb 7, 2022)

belboid said:


> Utterly shocking story
> 
> Starmer rescued from angry demonstrators by police​*Keir Starmer* has been put into a police car after being surrounded by protesters near the Houses of Parliament, the Sun’s *Jack Elsom *reports.
> 
> ...



Talk on facebook that this was Resistance GB - far right Alpha Men Aseemble/Q Anon types. They've got a YouTube channel.


----------



## friedaweed (Feb 7, 2022)

killer b said:


> These are the same guys who've been hanging round there harassing MPs for a couple of years. The same guys who climbed up the BBC to smash up the paedo statue the other week. They're already at it, Johnson hasn't inflamed them.


They're following him along the road shouting "paedophile protector" "child abuser" "Where's Jimmy Saville". Do you not think what Johnson said in parliament last week has had anything to do with what he had to endure tonight? 

I don't dispute that they're regular knobs on the scene but Starmer wouldn't have been called a paedophile all along Westminster tonight if Boris hadn't of spun the fake news would he?


----------



## Wilf (Feb 7, 2022)

Can't remember who it was, but one of johnson's aides apparently advised against him going with this line. I don't remember the report saying who came up with the line, but there was certainly an attempt to link Starmer into _something_, not just grab a headline (he did get the headlines, but not as intended). I don't think johnson is some alt-right ideologue, he isn't, but this says something about the terrain he thinks politics is now on.  That's in as much as it's anything, this is also about johnson simply being a cunt.


----------



## friedaweed (Feb 7, 2022)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Not sure if there are multiple clips going round, but the one I just watched it was all pretty audible and clear.


I cant link to the one I saw. Its on a shit rag I saw because it was sent to me. I'm not sharing a link from the scum but it's out there.


----------



## killer b (Feb 7, 2022)

friedaweed said:


> They're following him along the road shouting "paedophile protector" "child abuser" "Where's Jimmy Saville". Do you not think what Johnson said in parliament last week has had anything to do with what he had to endure tonight?
> 
> I don't dispute that they're regular knobs on the scene but Starmer wouldn't have been called a paedophile all along Westminster tonight if Boris hadn't of spun the fake news would he?


The whole outrage is because Johnson was repeating far right conspiracy theories. These guys _are_ the far right conspiracy theorists - they're the source of this stuff, not led by Johnson.


----------



## eatmorecheese (Feb 7, 2022)

killer b said:


> The whole outrage is because Johnson was repeating far right conspiracy theories. These guys _are_ the far right conspiracy theorists - they're the source of this stuff, not led by Johnson.


Not led by Johnson, certainly. Perhaps validated? Encouraged?


----------



## two sheds (Feb 7, 2022)

People wouldn't have known what they meant by it. I certainly wouldn't.


----------



## killer b (Feb 7, 2022)

eatmorecheese said:


> Not led by Johnson, certainly. Perhaps validated? Encouraged?


I dunno, there's footage of these maniacs shouting bollocks at someone or the other every other day. There's just a really great hook to hang this one on.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 7, 2022)

Anti-vaxxers shouting 'paedo-enabler' and 'Savile' at Starmer would have just looked like loons though. Now people know what they meant. Not that they don't look like loons, but people know what they meant.


----------



## belboid (Feb 7, 2022)

killer b said:


> I dunno, there's footage of these maniacs shouting bollocks at someone or the other every other day. There's just a really great hook to hang this one on.


Which is why they went for that one.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Feb 7, 2022)

killer b said:


> I dunno, there's footage of these maniacs shouting bollocks at someone or the other every other day. There's just a really great hook to hang this one on.



Yeah, you’re spot on. The idea that Johnson has magicked this up or has legitimised these goons is miles wide of the mark. The fact he’s copping the blame for it is fucking brilliant though…


----------



## killer b (Feb 7, 2022)

belboid said:


> Which is why they went for that one.


they were already going for it. it's their conspiracy theory. I wouldn't be surprised if something similar hadn't happened before but no-one noticed.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 7, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Yeah, you’re spot on. The idea that Johnson has magicked this up or has legitimised these goons is miles wide of the mark. The fact he’s copping the blame for it is fucking brilliant though…


Really? As I say, hardly anyone would have known what they were on about without Johnson.

Although agreed that Johnson getting the blame is brilliant, but I'd say he totally deserves the blame for it. I'd not heard of the far right smears before. He's brought it mainstream.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Feb 7, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Really? As I say, hardly anyone would have known what they were on about without Johnson.
> 
> Although agreed that Johnson getting the blame is brilliant, but I'd say he totally deserves the blame for it. I'd not heard of the far right smears before. He's brought it mainstream.



Really? Where do you think Johnson got the smear from? Who was spreading it over social media?


----------



## belboid (Feb 7, 2022)

killer b said:


> they were already going for it. it's their conspiracy theory. I wouldn't be surprised if something similar hadn't happened before but no-one noticed.


Naah, they go on about the bbc being to blame for savile.  Starmer wasn’t significant enough to fit into any the Yankee imported narrative.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 7, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Really? Where do you think Johnson got the smear from?


Yes totally, but had you heard of it before? I hadn't and I doubt most people would have done.

Everyone has now though.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Feb 7, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Yes totally, but had you heard of it before? I hadn't and I doubt most people would have done.



There is a massive amount of this stuff flying about, and some of it does filter into the mainstream. The leftie/Labour/BBC/CPS paedo cover up/apologist stuff is fairly well known isn’t it?


----------



## killer b (Feb 7, 2022)

belboid said:


> Naah, they go on about the bbc being to blame for savile.  Starmer wasn’t significant enough to fit into any the Yankee imported narrative.


OK, must be some other BBC paedo obsessed far right conspiracy theorists came up with it.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Feb 7, 2022)

Being reported that Piers Corbyn was part of the anti-vax protest that this mob broke away from to have a pop at Starmer.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 7, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> There is a massive amount of this stuff flying about, and some of it does filter into the mainstream. The leftie/Labour/BBC/CPS paedo cover up/apologist stuff is fairly well known isn’t it?


Not the leftie/Labour stuff by most people I wouldn't have thought. I don't generally look at far right sources and I doubt most people (apart from the conspiraloons) do. Johnson brought it right into the mainstream. 

As you say, it's good he's getting the blame but I do think he deserves it, particularly if he originally saw it in far-right sources.


----------



## ska invita (Feb 7, 2022)

AmateurAgitator said:


> Talk on facebook that this was Resistance GB - far right Alpha Men Aseemble/Q Anon types. They've got a YouTube channel.


yes The Guardian video seems to have been gotten off Resistance GB as its got their great big logo on it
nice bit of publicity for them


			YouTube


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Feb 7, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Not the leftie/Labour stuff by most people I wouldn't have thought. I don't generally look at far right sources and I doubt most people (apart from the conspiraloons) do. Johnson brought it right into the mainstream



Neither do I. But this stuff does find its way into the mainstream. I’ve been sat talking in the alehouse/at the football/in work and someone comes out with some barmy shit. It can normally be traced back to something they’ve seen on social media. Which, of course, is precisely the aim of the posters of it


----------



## Calamity1971 (Feb 7, 2022)

Tories suspend councillor accused of making racist comments


----------



## two sheds (Feb 7, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Neither do I. But this stuff does find its way into the mainstream. I’ve been sat talking in the alehouse/at the football/in work and someone comes out with some barmy shit. It can normally be traced back to something they’ve seen on social media. Which, of course, is precisely the aim of the posters of it


Ah fair play I'm not on Facebook or Twitter or the like so haven't seen any of that.


----------



## Calamity1971 (Feb 7, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Ah fair play I'm not on Facebook or Twitter or the like so haven't seen any of that.


I'd never heard it either. Only just joined twitter and not on Farcebook.


----------



## Humberto (Feb 7, 2022)

Reminder:









						Boris Johnson's policy chief Munira Mirza resigns over PM's Savile remarks
					

Munira Mirza says the PM should have apologised to Labour leader Sir Keir Starmer over false claims.



					www.bbc.co.uk
				




It's come to something now following today's events. How can anyone non-wacky back him anymore?


----------



## belboid (Feb 7, 2022)

killer b said:


> OK, must be some other BBC paedo obsessed far right conspiracy theorists came up with it.


Or even the fact that he was head of the cps when they decided not to prosecute.  Of course it’s out there and was thrown at him by Tory and lefty knobs even before the far right lions.  If it weren’t for Johnson’s comments they’d still have had a go, but would probably have been screaming about lockdown or vaccine passports.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 7, 2022)

Well here's a clincher: skwakwbox who I honestly don't usually look at but are going to be the impartial source on this 









						Johnson says Starmer ‘nothing to do’ with Savile decision – but is he right?
					

Starmer: no denial of involvement in Savile decision – nor naming anyone else who was – though FOI shows he was at least aware After pressure from his own MPs rallying to Keir Starmer&#…




					skwawkbox.org
				






> Skwawkbox put the matter to Keir Starmer directly, via text message and email on Thursday:
> 
> Boris Johnson has withdrawn his comment about you making the decision not to prosecute Savile and has now said you had nothing to do with it. But he doesn’t know that, since the CPS deleted its records about the decision, claiming data protection reasons. What _is_ on record is that you as DPP were consulted by the CPS on whether it should release who was responsible and the info was withheld. So either you decided it or you know who did. Please provide no later than 5pm:
> 
> ...



Note this: Starmer didn't respond to Skwawkbox _despite a deadline of 5pm_ that day. 

I think we _all know_ the reason for this


----------



## Humberto (Feb 7, 2022)

belboid said:


> Or even the fact that he was head of the cps when they decided not to prosecute.  Of course it’s out there and was thrown at him by Tory and lefty knobs even before the far right lions.  If it weren’t for Johnson’s comments they’d still have had a go, but would probably have been screaming about lockdown or vaccine passports.



If Starmer doesn't oppose Johnson at this point...?


----------



## Humberto (Feb 7, 2022)

I wouldn't bet much on Starmer though to do anything about it.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 7, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> There is a massive amount of this stuff flying about, and some of it does filter into the mainstream. The leftie/Labour/BBC/CPS paedo cover up/apologist stuff is fairly well known isn’t it?


I'd never heard of it. That the BBC was shit wrt Savile, sure. But that there was a conspiracy that extended to government and starmer at the DPS? Johnson saying it was genuinely the first I had heard it .


----------



## Wilf (Feb 8, 2022)

Calamity1971 said:


> Tories suspend councillor accused of making racist comments



The loon was still a tory in 2018 then.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Feb 8, 2022)

I've seen the starmer/Saville stuff a fair bit on the spectator Facebook pages, so I presume it's probably fairly well known within the gammon-sphere.


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Feb 8, 2022)

I hadn't heard about the Starmer/Savile link either until Johnson said it. I'd wager the majority of the public haven't either. I'd include a lot of the paedo/Labour stuff in that too. Hearing it down the pub/football/bingo/on whippet walk is one thing but I still don't think most people are across this stuff particularly well. 

It has echos of when Trump legitimised White supremacist nazi wankers. They've always been there in American society and lots of people knew they were always there but he really brought them into the light.


----------



## PR1Berske (Feb 8, 2022)




----------



## ruffneck23 (Feb 8, 2022)

PR1Berske said:


>



there are dozens of them out there , same tweet


----------



## brogdale (Feb 8, 2022)

I know that Mirza cast the use of the Savile comment as scurrilous in her valedictory, but I bet she advised against on the basis of poor strategising...the issue has been capable of nudging the news agenda slightly away from parties but merely by highlighting another aspect of Johnson’s many failings.


----------



## killer b (Feb 8, 2022)

brogdale said:


> I know that Mirza cast the use of the Savile comment as scurrilous in her valedictory, but I bet she advised against on the basis of poor strategising...the issue has been capable of nudging the news agenda slightly away from parties but merely by highlighting another aspect of Johnson’s many failings.


Totally - linking yourself politically to these goons is pure poison.


----------



## PR1Berske (Feb 8, 2022)




----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Feb 8, 2022)

PR1Berske said:


>



Someone really needs to brush up on the term “logic” there.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 8, 2022)

I think Starmer should resign (from what I've seen labour members have been expelled for less) and demand that ethically and by the same logic Johnson should resign. Leaving the race open for all the labour members who've resigned to rejoin and vote Laura Pidcock in as leader of the party, ready to sweep the country at the next election


----------



## Gramsci (Feb 8, 2022)

Away from the media circus I was chatting with my brother's daughter few weeks back. She joined Labour when she was 14. Along with those who joined enthused by Corbyn.

She's now left. She has been quite active in local party. She feels since Starmer got to be leader the newer membership have been treated with contempt. She's now in last year of Uni. She hasn't joined any other political group.

She was particularly upset by Rachel Reeves recent comments on welcoming drop in membership.

She was angry about leaving the party.

She comes from Labour voting family. Here parents work in public sector ( NHS and social services).

I would have thought the Labour party would have tried to keep and get more members like her.

If she is representative of other young people then Starmer and those he's appointed have lost a young enthusiastic young generation for good.

Long term this can only breed more cynicism and disaffection for the future in the political system.

The media circus on Starmer , Boris and Saville attacks is missing what's happening on the ground with younger people.


----------



## Leighsw2 (Feb 8, 2022)

Not sure how much store to place in this article, but a reminder that Starmer was leading CPS during the decision making on Assange as well as Savile. Also, if the stuff on Mishcon de Reya is true, then it's precisely the kind of 'coincidence' that makes people cynical about politics.
How the Establishment Functions - Craig Murray

There is an interesting issue here about the concept of 'responsibility' in public service - if you're head of a public service (and taking £130,000 for it) how 'responsible' are you when it fucks up? Keir Starmer did not personally take the decision about Savile, but he was the head of the organisation that did. Apparently, according to the establishment commentariat, the existence of the former means we can't mention the latter.


----------



## Leighsw2 (Feb 8, 2022)

Gramsci said:


> Away from the media circus I was chatting with my brother's daughter few weeks back. She joined Labour when she was 14. Along with those who joined enthused by Corbyn.
> 
> She's now left. She has been quite active in local party. She feels since Starmer got to be leader the newer membership have been treated with contempt. She's now in last year of Uni. She hasn't joined any other political group.
> 
> ...


Very interesting point - one useful litmus test to apply to the party is "what is it about Labour that the Conservatives would like to have?" As of 2017/18 the answer would probably have been "a mass membership party of 500,00 people" and "overwhelming support from the under-35s". Interesting how Starmer Labour is quite happy to give away both of these advantages in return for nothing.

The next General Election will be an interesting test case for Starmer's version of Labour - is it possible to win a first-past-the-post election with no electoral base and running everything from a call centre because there's no-one left to knock on doors for you? We shall see!


----------



## Dogsauce (Feb 8, 2022)

Leighsw2 said:


> The next General Election will be an interesting test case for Starmer's version of Labour - is it possible to win a first-past-the-post election with no electoral base and running everything from a call centre because there's no-one left to knock on doors for you? We shall see!


corporate donations buy a lot of Facebook visibility. It worked for the Tories so I guess Starmer is going with that approach.


----------



## Gramsci (Feb 8, 2022)

Dogsauce said:


> corporate donations buy a lot of Facebook visibility. It worked for the Tories so I guess Starmer is going with that approach.



I listened to the Radio 4 politics programme on Saturday mornings about a month ago. Labour MP was asked about drop in membership and reduction in funding.

His answer was that these things go up and down. That under Starmer there is fundraising drive to get "high net worth individuals" to put money into Labour party.

He was happy about that. As this was the BBC no one questioned him on that comment.


----------



## Gramsci (Feb 8, 2022)

Leighsw2 said:


> Very interesting point - one useful litmus test to apply to the party is "what is it about Labour that the Conservatives would like to have?" As of 2017/18 the answer would probably have been "a mass membership party of 500,00 people" and "overwhelming support from the under-35s". Interesting how Starmer Labour is quite happy to give away both of these advantages in return for nothing.
> 
> The next General Election will be an interesting test case for Starmer's version of Labour - is it possible to win a first-past-the-post election with no electoral base and running everything from a call centre because there's no-one left to knock on doors for you? We shall see!



I seem to remember The39thStep posting somewhere here ( the very good point that I hadn't seen) that Biden didn't go down the route of alienating the new younger more membership who supported Sanders. So they did get out and knock on doors.

So Starmer had a political choice to make. It wasn't inevitable or necessary to make people like my Brothers daughter so pissed off they left.


----------



## gosub (Feb 8, 2022)

PR1Berske said:


>



 The old 'PM's of support' ploy


----------



## rekil (Feb 9, 2022)

No more Craig Murray links please. He shills for Big Crank.


----------



## Chilli.s (Feb 9, 2022)

Old starmsie's a bit shit at fighting his corner, perhaps he should try a different tack and claim hes being bullied


----------



## billy_bob (Feb 9, 2022)

Starmer ally Nick Forbes, who has been leader of Newcastle Council for 10+ years, was deselected by his ward committee last night, by a rather pitiful 13 votes to 4. Don't know what the winning candidate Abdul Samad's affiliations are, if any. Forbes was once tipped for big things in the parliamentary party, but he hasn't really set the world alight.


----------



## killer b (Feb 9, 2022)

it's incredible that someone who's been leader of the council of one of the biggest cities in the country for a decade could take his eye off the ball so spectacularly tbh. I expect he'll manage to get a winnable seat elsewhere in the city but nonetheless.


----------



## billy_bob (Feb 9, 2022)

He's left it quite late but yes, I'm sure they're falling over themselves to offer him another one. It's not like they're short of safe seats in Newcastle.

You're right about how impressively cack-handed it was. It's not like the 13 who voted for the other guy represents some kind of entryist meeting-packing: I reckon if anyone had gone to the trouble to do that they could have had dozens there easily - some of Corbyn's best-attended rallies were up here, and I bet Forbes's diverse and youthful inner-west ward sent as many of those attendees as any other.


----------



## elbows (Feb 9, 2022)

Some detail:









						Labour’s Newcastle city council leader deselected ahead of local elections
					

Starmer ally Nick Forbes, who has run council for more than a decade, loses to activist Abdul Samad




					www.theguardian.com
				






> Forbes’s allies have described his defeat as being inflicted by the “hard left” and pointed out that the ward selection meeting was held late, limiting his opportunities to find an alternative potential seat.
> 
> But one local activist, who declined to be named, told the Guardian it was “not about left or right,” but about choosing a local candidate who would focus all their energy on the ward, “someone who’s actually prepared to be here, be a lot more hands on.” They added: “We feel for a long time that hasn’t been the case, and we wanted our voices heard.”





> A senior Labour source in the north-east pushed back against the idea that the leftwing campaign group Momentum had been involved, describing Samad, a 25-year-old recent master’s graduate, as unaligned with a particular faction. Forbes “basically just lost a vote. That’s what happens in democratic politics,” the source said.





> Forbes’s defeat comes against the background of a power-struggle over the direction of wider Newcastle politics.
> 
> Two Labour sources said Forbes’s deselection was connected with a clash with the party’s former chief whip Nick Brown. One said Brown had organised efforts to challenge Forbes as leader of the council after a falling out, and that Forbes had known his seat was under potential threat. “It’s obviously damaging and embarrassing. Nick is very accomplished but he did not organise well.”
> 
> Brown, the MP for Newcastle upon Tyne East since 1983, was moved out of his longstanding role of opposition chief whip during Starmer’s reshuffle in May 2021.


----------



## Dom Traynor (Feb 9, 2022)

Doesn't surprise me at all. Forbes has long taken the detail of organising and campaigning for granted.


----------



## elbows (Feb 9, 2022)

Dom Traynor said:


> Doesn't surprise me at all. Forbes has long taken the detail of organising and campaigning for granted.


Thatcher and Peter Morrison made the same mistake.


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## billy_bob (Feb 9, 2022)

It's indicative of that complacency when they blame the defeat on some concerted 'hard left' campaign against him. Maybe there was, but let's say it again: 13 votes to 4. That's fucking small-time stuff - it would have been a piece of piss to prevent it, if they'd bothered even one cheek of their arses to do so.


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## ruffneck23 (Feb 10, 2022)

Labour facing bankruptcy as union donor Unite says it could pull remaining support
					

Sir Keir says Labour will not be ‘influenced by threats’




					www.independent.co.uk


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## hitmouse (Feb 10, 2022)

Literally just came here to post that - here's the LabourList writeup:








						Unite warns funding to Labour “under review” amid dispute with council – LabourList
					

Sharon Graham has declared that "the remaining financial support" provided by Unite the Union to the Labour Party is "now under review" amid an ongoing…




					labourlist.org
				




And a Labour spokesperson is apparently replying with "go on then":


Think it might take quite a few high net worth individuals to make up for Unite.


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## Sprocket. (Feb 10, 2022)

I was going to post the same. Great minds etc.


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## MickiQ (Feb 10, 2022)

Unite is by far and away Labour's biggest donor so them withholding cash is going to hurt but it can't afford to have a parting of the ways with the Labour Party no matter how much it may be pissed off with them. What's it going to do then? donate money to the Tory Party or the LibDems? Labour is the ONLY political force that pays ANY attention to what the TUC or Unite think about anything.  Bankrupting them and helping to guarantee a permanent Tory government not the smartest move in the playbook. As for donating it to other political 'projects' they might as well just chuck their money on the fire and burn it the end result will be the same.


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## Pickman's model (Feb 10, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> Unite is by far and away Labour's biggest donor so them withholding cash is going to hurt but it can't afford to have a parting of the ways with the Labour Party no matter how much it may be pissed off with them. What's it going to do then? donate money to the Tory Party or the LibDems? Labour is the ONLY political force that pays ANY attention to what the TUC or Unite think about anything.  Bankrupting them and helping to guarantee a permanent Tory government not the smartest move in the playbook. As for donating it to other political 'projects' they might as well just chuck their money on the fire and burn it the end result will be the same.


the rmt seems to be doing alright without affiliation to the labour party
don't see why unite shouldn't do ok without the labour party either


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## hitmouse (Feb 10, 2022)

They're a union, it's their job to represent their members. Graham phrased it as “Our wallet is closed to bad employers”, and that attitude makes sense to me. "The tories are bad" doesn't seem like much of an argument for handing over cash to the people who are fucking over your own members.


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## Sue (Feb 10, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> Unite is by far and away Labour's biggest donor so them withholding cash is going to hurt but it can't afford to have a parting of the ways with the Labour Party no matter how much it may be pissed off with them. What's it going to do then? donate money to the Tory Party or the LibDems? Labour is the ONLY political force that pays ANY attention to what the TUC or Unite think about anything.  Bankrupting them and helping to guarantee a permanent Tory government not the smartest move in the playbook. As for donating it to other political 'projects' they might as well just chuck their money on the fire and burn it the end result will be the same.


Well Unite members don't seem to be getting a whole load out of the deal.  🤷‍♀️


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## MickiQ (Feb 10, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> the rmt seems to be doing alright without affiliation to the labour party
> don't see why unite shouldn't do ok without the labour party either


The RMT is unique for a great many reasons but that isn't the point, the point is that a Tory Govt will continue to pass anti-union legislation whenever it feels like it, only a Labour Govt (might) repeal any of it. Granted that the current iteration of the Labour Party isn't all that likely to but killing it because some people don't like what it is now doesn't give it the chance to become something else.


Sue said:


> Well Unite members don't seem to be getting a whole load out of the deal.  🤷‍♀️


You're right they're not but they will get even less if Starmer calls out Graham's bluff.


hitmouse said:


> They're a union, it's their job to represent their members. Graham phrased it as “Our wallet is closed to bad employers”, and that attitude makes sense to me. "The tories are bad" doesn't seem like much of an argument for handing over cash to the people who are fucking over your own members.


Indeed and I am on their side however their dispute is with the local Labour led council, threatening to cut off funding to the national Labour Party to put pressure on the local one strikes me as a dangerous short term strategy with a high chance of it backfiring on them.


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## Sprocket. (Feb 10, 2022)

The Labour Party will never repeal any anti trade union laws.
It was Barbara Castle’s report “In Times of Strife” that encouraged and emboldened Thatcher and Keith Joseph to dismantle the power of the workers by removing the national reliance on heavy industries.
If it walks like a Tory and quacks like a Tory, it’s a Tory no matter what colour rosette they pin on themselves.


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## Pickman's model (Feb 10, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> The RMT is unique for a great many reasons but that isn't the point, the point is that a Tory Govt will continue to pass anti-union legislation whenever it feels like it, only a Labour Govt (might) repeal any of it. Granted that the current iteration of the Labour Party isn't all that likely to but killing it because some people don't like what it is now doesn't give it the chance to become something else.


the labour party's been shit for decades and decades and i can't see that changing, at least not for the better. last time there was a labour government it was in for 13 years and didn't repeal one word of anti-union legislation.


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## Pickman's model (Feb 10, 2022)

Sue said:


> Well Unite members don't seem to be getting a whole load out of the deal.  🤷‍♀️


but LABOUR [/mickiq]


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## MickiQ (Feb 10, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> the labour party's been shit for decades and decades and i can't see that changing, at least not for the better. last time there was a labour government it was in for 13 years and didn't repeal one word of anti-union legislation.


Wouldn't argue with you but what alternatives do you imagine there are?


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## Serge Forward (Feb 10, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> Unite is by far and away Labour's biggest donor so them withholding cash is going to hurt but it can't afford to have a parting of the ways with the Labour Party no matter how much it may be pissed off with them. What's it going to do then? donate money to the Tory Party or the LibDems? Labour is the ONLY political force that pays ANY attention to what the TUC or Unite think about anything.  Bankrupting them and helping to guarantee a permanent Tory government not the smartest move in the playbook. As for donating it to other political 'projects' they might as well just chuck their money on the fire and burn it the end result will be the same.


They could give their money to the CBI. The result would be much the same.


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## Plumdaff (Feb 10, 2022)

The unions which most successfully advocate for their workers in this country (I'm thinking RMT, for example) aren't affiliated with Labour and would never have the support of the Labour right. In contrast unions like Unison in the NHS have presided over decades of defeat regardless of who is in government.

As a Unite member I want her to get on with it.


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## Serge Forward (Feb 10, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> Wouldn't argue with you but what alternatives do you imagine there are?


Promote working people fighting in their own class interests, back those in dispute, build fighting organisations, build for actions against the anti-union laws. That all takes time and money, you know. Fuck Labour. It's another party of the bosses.


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## MickiQ (Feb 10, 2022)

Sprocket. said:


> The Labour Party will never repeal any anti trade union laws.
> It was Barbara Castle’s report “In Times of Strife” that encouraged and emboldened Thatcher and Keith Joseph to dismantle the power of the workers by removing the national reliance on heavy industries.
> If it walks like a Tory and quacks like a Tory, it’s a Tory no matter what colour rosette they pin on themselves.


Maybe it will, Probably it won't. It definitely won't if it is being funded by rich individuals.


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## Smokeandsteam (Feb 10, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> They're a union, it's their job to represent their members. Graham phrased it as “Our wallet is closed to bad employers”, and that attitude makes sense to me. "The tories are bad" doesn't seem like much of an argument for handing over cash to the people who are fucking over your own members.



Those outside of Unite perhaps do not always fully understand just how embedded, entangled, interchangeable and interdependent the union and the party is in various places and at various times. Up until Starmer and Rayner, the TGWU had _always _acted as a kingmaker for previous leaders to _some_ important extent. Unite has thousands of sponsored Labour Councillors and hundreds of MPs. At Unite events, supplicant Labour types turn up in droves to pretend to be interested in what is happening in our workplaces.

If Sharon Graham could pull off a decisive break with Labour it would be transformational for both organisations.

For Labour, its long journey to a place as the party of the middle class and as the defender of liberalism would become a realistic one. It could then finally abandon any pretence of having any regard for the interests of the organised working class or those communities that used to be before Thatcher.

For Unite, it could act to cleanse our structures of careerists and Labour hacks who have long clogged up those structures and those who have used them as a launch pad for their own ambition. It would potentially divert Millions into organising and stronger lay structures rather than Labour coffers and 'political' activity. It would force the union to confront its central purpose for existing - the material interests of the members - head on rather than through the often skewed process of what the interests of the Labour Party are also.

There are loads of reasons why it won't happen. Labour need Unite money. There are lots of powerful and vested interests in both organisations who will and do oppose Sharon Graham on this. However, unlike the posturing McLuskey and other TU bosses Graham has show zero interest in or enthusiasm for maintaining the relationship I have tried to describe briefly above. On that basis alone she deserves full support.


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## Smokeandsteam (Feb 10, 2022)

Plumdaff said:


> The unions which most successfully advocate for their workers in this country (I'm thinking RMT, for example) aren't affiliated with Labour and would never have the support of the Labour right. In contrast unions like Unison in the NHS have presided over decades of defeat regardless of who is in government.
> 
> As a Unite member I want her to get on with it.



Both Unison and Unite have sat back and said nothing as Labour Councils have enacted central government demands for cuts. Labour Councillors - many sponsored by my union and Unison - have made hundreds of thousands of workers redundant over the last 20 years. When challenged they argue that Labour make these cuts more humanely, and via consultation with the union bosses. I am delighted to see Sharon call it (and them) out.


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## Pickman's model (Feb 10, 2022)

Plumdaff said:


> The unions which most successfully advocate for their workers in this country (I'm thinking RMT, for example) aren't affiliated with Labour and would never have the support of the Labour right. In contrast unions like Unison in the NHS have presided over decades of defeat regardless of who is in government.
> 
> As a Unite member I want her to get on with it.


as a unison member i'd like our lot to take note!


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## MickiQ (Feb 10, 2022)

Serge Forward said:


> Promote working people fighting in their own class interests, back those in dispute, build fighting organisations, build for actions against the anti-union laws. That all takes time and money, you know. Fuck Labour. It's another party of the bosses.


Excellent answer not a realistic one but certainly a heartfelt one.


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## two sheds (Feb 10, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> Excellent answer not a realistic one but certainly a heartfelt one.


Realistic one for a union to try though, surely.


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## Plumdaff (Feb 10, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Both Unison and Unite have sat back and said nothing as Labour Councils have enacted central government demands for cuts. Labour Councillors - many sponsored by my union and Unison - have made hundreds of thousands of workers redundant over the last 20 years. When challenged they argue that Labour make these cuts more humanely, and via consultation with the union bosses. I am delighted to see Sharon call it (and them) out.


Yes. In Wales it's difficult to overstate how cosy the relationship is between the major unions and the Senedd. Meanwhile working conditions for most people get steadily worse. Partnership with Labour has delivered a hairs breath Fabian wet wipe of a 'better deal' for people here. An extra annual leave day for NHS staff, but no pay rise. Fuck it.


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## elbows (Feb 10, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> Excellent answer not a realistic one but certainly a heartfelt one.


If a sense of what is realistic is developed only within the narrow confines of the current status quo then whats the point?


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## Smokeandsteam (Feb 10, 2022)

Plumdaff said:


> Yes. In Wales it's difficult to overstate how cosy the relationship is between the major unions and the Senedd. Meanwhile working conditions for most people get steadily worse. Partnership with Labour has delivered a hairs breath Fabian wet wipe of a 'better deal' for people here. An extra annual leave day for NHS staff, but no pay rise. Fuck it.



Same in Birmingham. I don’t work for the local authority but lots of fellow members do. The Labour council have presided over cuts worth nearly £1 Billion since 2010. They have got rid of thousands of jobs. Many very low paid and done by women and black workers. They’ve provoked a senseless and disgusting dispute with our bin workers. They’ve tried to impose the shittiest possible contracts on home care workers.

They are, without a shadow of a doubt, the class enemy


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## MickiQ (Feb 10, 2022)

elbows said:


> If a sense of what is realistic is developed only within the narrow confines of the current status quo then whats the point?


I'm not criticising him, he can dream as big as he wants and maybe one day it will happen but here and now reality still as to be dealt with. I can't imagine that Unite trying to blackmail the Labour Party will end it anything but failure for them both.
I seem to remember plenty of moaning about Corbyn not throwing himself 101% behind union disputes with local councils and it was unfair on him as it is on Starmer.
What actually does anyone expect him to do?? He is the Leader of the Opposition not the PM, he has no legal authority in this dispute whatsoever. He can have a friendly or unfriendly word with the Labour councillors but he can't actually tell them to do anything at all can he?


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## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Feb 10, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> Unite is by far and away Labour's biggest donor so them withholding cash is going to hurt but it can't afford to have a parting of the ways with the Labour Party no matter how much it may be pissed off with them. What's it going to do then? donate money to the Tory Party or the LibDems? Labour is the ONLY political force that pays ANY attention to what the TUC or Unite think about anything.  Bankrupting them and helping to guarantee a permanent Tory government not the smartest move in the playbook. As for donating it to other political 'projects' they might as well just chuck their money on the fire and burn it the end result will be the same.



There's no endpoint to this logic though is there. Is there any point at which you think it might make sense to withdraw the funding?


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## Chz (Feb 10, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Same in Birmingham. I don’t work for the local authority but lots of fellow members do. The Labour council have presided over cuts worth nearly £1 Billion since 2010. They have got rid of thousands of jobs. Many very low paid and done by women and black workers. They’ve provoked a senseless and disgusting dispute with our bin workers. They’ve tried to impose the shittiest possible contracts on home care workers.
> 
> They are, without a shadow of a doubt, the class enemy


Councils don't control their finances. They generally have no choice but to do most of that. Their only room for decision making is how acrimoniously they do it. I imagine Birmingham is much like most London boroughs - over 2/3ds of the budget is caring for the vulnerable and everything else _has_ to be stripped to the bone or even more people will start falling through the cracks. The fault for all this lies in Westminster, not Birmingham.


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## MickiQ (Feb 10, 2022)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> There's no endpoint to this logic though is there. Is there any point at which you think it might make sense to withdraw the funding?


Wouldn't argue with you but at the moment I can't imagine it will work since a) Starmer's actual authority is nll and b) he really can't afford the public perception of being accused of giving into union blackmail even if it wasn't.
So at the moment I can't see it a point at which Unite (as opposed to individual members who can of course opt out of any political contributions) won't do itself harm in order to try (and almost certainly fail) to try and resolve this dispute.


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## Smokeandsteam (Feb 10, 2022)

Chz said:


> Councils don't control their finances. They generally have no choice but to do most of that. Their only room for decision making is how acrimoniously they do it. I imagine Birmingham is much like most London boroughs - over 2/3ds of the budget is caring for the vulnerable and everything else _has_ to be stripped to the bone or even more people will start falling through the cracks. The fault for all this lies in Westminster, not Birmingham.



Councils have a no choice but to provoke disputes with their own refuse workers and home carers? On your wider point why bother voting Labour councils if they are merely ciphers for central government diktat? And finally, once, some Labour councils refused to pass budgets containing cuts to the most vulnerable and worked to mobilise communities to resist them


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## Chz (Feb 10, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Councils have a no choice but to provoke disputes with their own refuse workers and home carers? On your wider point why bother voting Labour councils if they are merely ciphers for central government diktat? And finally, once, some Labour councils refused to pass budgets containing cuts to the most vulnerable and worked to mobilise communities to resist them


Indeed. The whole point of the exercise is to make local politics a farce and powerless. It already makes very little difference who runs the council (outside of utterly corrupt ones like Croydon).
Every council that's tried the protest route ended up with their budget cuts anyhow.


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## andysays (Feb 10, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> Wouldn't argue with you but what alternatives do you imagine there are?


There is the alternative of focusing the various resources of the union on industrial organising, rather than relying on the Labour Party to support working people, something which they've never really been any good at doing when it came to the crunch.

This is the policy which Sharon Graham stood for election as Unite General Secretary recently, winning my vote and the votes of enough other members that she now finds herself able to carry out that policy. 

This really shouldn't come as any surprise to Starmer or anyone else.


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## Serge Forward (Feb 10, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> Excellent answer not a realistic one but certainly a heartfelt one.


It'll never be realistic with that attitude. If bring realistic means workers' organisations being nowt but a funding source for an anti working class party, then we're sunk.


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## hitmouse (Feb 10, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> as a unison member i'd like our lot to take note!


As a Unison member, the list of things our lot could learn from Unite could probably fill a book.


MickiQ said:


> I'm not criticising him, he can dream as big as he wants and maybe one day it will happen but here and now reality still as to be dealt with.


This always confuses me, the use of "here and now reality" as a point arguing in favour of... hoping a hypothetical future Labour government elected at some unknown point might have better policies?


MickiQ said:


> I can't imagine that Unite trying to blackmail the Labour Party will end it anything but failure for them both.
> I seem to remember plenty of moaning about Corbyn not throwing himself 101% behind union disputes with local councils and it was unfair on him as it is on Starmer.
> What actually does anyone expect him to do?? He is the Leader of the Opposition not the PM, he has no legal authority in this dispute whatsoever. He can have a friendly or unfriendly word with the Labour councillors but he can't actually tell them to do anything at all can he?


I mean, Labour's supposed to be a formal political organisation with some ability to discipline its members and elected representatives, not some loose grouping of hippies. If the Coventry councillors had posted "I reckon that Jeremy Corbyn seems like a nice man" on twitter, Labour central office would have had something to say about it.


MickiQ said:


> Wouldn't argue with you but at the moment I can't imagine it will work since a) Starmer's actual authority is nll and b) he really can't afford the public perception of being accused of giving into union blackmail even if it wasn't.


I don't think he can really afford to lose that much money in donations either.


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## MickiQ (Feb 10, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> This always confuses me, the use of "here and now reality" as a point arguing in favour of... hoping a hypothetical future Labour government elected at some unknown point might have better policies?


Not arguing for or against it, there was if you recall a hypothetical past Labour Government that did have policies you would approve of, it didn't come about that's not to say that it can't come about in the future however unlikely that may currently look.
And I'm not arguing that future Labour governments might or might not make changes you or I want but that future Conservative ones definitely won't and these shenanigans makes that more not less likely. You're right having a few crumbs doesn't seem like much but it's better than having nowt and a few crumbs could give the strength to fight for a loaf of bread.


hitmouse said:


> I mean, Labour's supposed to be a formal political organisation with some ability to discipline its members and elected representatives, not some loose grouping of hippies. If the Coventry councillors had posted "I reckon that Jeremy Corbyn seems like a nice man" on twitter, Labour central office would have had something to say about it.


Yes it is but it can't dictate how the council is run to local councillors, the law of the land does that. It could throw them out of the Labour party of course but what would that achieve they would still be councillors just not Labour ones and they would still be liable for any penalties that might come from not following the law. The last time local authority councillors tried defiance on a large scale it failed miserably.


hitmouse said:


> I don't think he can really afford to lose that much money in donations either.


Yes I'm sure you're right there are no easy choices for him here, not get involved and lose a shitload of cash or get involved, achieve nothing and potentially lose loads of votes that he needs. I think he might see the first as the lesser of two evils.


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## Plumdaff (Feb 10, 2022)

Chz said:


> Indeed. The whole point of the exercise is to make local politics a farce and powerless. It already makes very little difference who runs the council (outside of utterly corrupt ones like Croydon).
> Every council that's tried the protest route ended up with their budget cuts anyhow.


Liverpool Council initially won concessions and money from the Conservative government and there was a growing national campaign across left-wing councils. Labour refused to back its own councils against Thatcher and the start of the decades-long squeeze on local autonomy went into full swing. 

This is yet another reason why backing the Labour right is a hiding to nothing, not a reason to concede eternal defeat to Westminster.


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## MickiQ (Feb 10, 2022)

Plumdaff said:


> Liverpool Council initially won concessions and money from the Conservative government and there was a growing national campaign across left-wing councils. Labour refused to back its own councils against Thatcher and the start of the decades-long squeeze on local autonomy went into full swing.
> 
> This is yet another reason why backing the Labour right is a hiding to nothing, not a reason to concede eternal defeat to Westminster.


Excellent point however the Labour left and Labour right are a single entity, currently the right is in the ascendant whereas the left was three years ago.


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## Smokeandsteam (Feb 10, 2022)

Plumdaff said:


> Liverpool Council initially won concessions and money from the Conservative government and there was a growing national campaign across left-wing councils. Labour refused to back its own councils against Thatcher and the start of the decades-long squeeze on local autonomy went into full swing.



Saved me having to post this. Thank you. And you are exactly right to highlight that the failure of the Labour Party - not only to back those councils, but to start witch-hunting those at the forefront of the resistance - gave the Tories the green light to launch the assault on local government


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## hitmouse (Feb 10, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> And I'm not arguing that future Labour governments might or might not make changes you or I want but that future Conservative ones definitely won't and these shenanigans makes that more not less likely. You're right having a few crumbs doesn't seem like much but it's better than having nowt and a few crumbs could give the strength to fight for a loaf of bread.


I mean, I hate having to say it, but Conservative governments definitely have made changes that I approved of, bringing in gay marriage under Cameron for instance, or the restrictions on evictions in 2020, or making u-turns on some of their vile policies like scrapping Mandatory Work Activity. Or, going back a bit further, Major dropping the poll tax. I'm not saying this as an argument for voting tory (honest!), I'm just saying that you can still win crumbs under the Conservatives as well as under Labour.


MickiQ said:


> Yes it is but it can't dictate how the council is run to local councillors, the law of the land does that. It could throw them out of the Labour party of course but what would that achieve they would still be councillors just not Labour ones and they would still be liable for any penalties that might come from not following the law.
> 
> Yes I'm sure you're right there are no easy choices for him here, not get involved and lose a shitload of cash or get involved, achieve nothing and potentially lose loads of votes that he needs. I think he might see the first as the lesser of two evils.


Well, throwing them out of the Labour party would certainly help get him out of trouble with Unite, and more importantly, the threat of getting thrown out of the party, and so probably losing their seats the next time around, might well help convince the councillors in question to back down. As for potentially losing loads of votes, is the anti-bin-worker vote really that strong? I'd think a competent politician should be able to spin standing up for low-paid workers coping with the cost of living as a plus rather than a minus.


MickiQ said:


> Excellent point however the Labour left and Labour right are a single entity, currently the right is in the ascendant whereas the left was three years ago.


Yeah, and over that past three years and more the Labour right have shown themselves to not be shy about doing whatever it takes to get what they want, including sabotaging Labour's electoral chances. Fair enough, but I reckon turnaround is fair play and all that.


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## MickiQ (Feb 10, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> I mean, I hate having to say it, but Conservative governments definitely have made changes that I approved of, bringing in gay marriage under Cameron for instance, or the restrictions on evictions in 2020, or making u-turns on some of their vile policies like scrapping Mandatory Work Activity. Or, going back a bit further, Major dropping the poll tax. I'm not saying this as an argument for voting tory (honest!), I'm just saying that you can still win crumbs under the Conservatives as well as under Labour.
> 
> Well, throwing them out of the Labour party would certainly help get him out of trouble with Unite, and more importantly, the threat of getting thrown out of the party, and so probably losing their seats the next time around, might well help convince the councillors in question to back down. As for potentially losing loads of votes, is the anti-bin-worker vote really that strong? I'd think a competent politician should be able to spin standing up for low-paid workers coping with the cost of living as a plus rather than a minus.
> 
> Yeah, and over that past three years and more the Labour right have shown themselves to not be shy about doing whatever it takes to get what they want, including sabotaging Labour's electoral chances. Fair enough, but I reckon turnaround is fair play and all that.


I don't think there is an anti-bin worker vote at all or a pro-bin worker vote for that matter. I think the core Labour vote is simply smaller than the core Tory one, any Labour Leader has to negotiate a somewhat tricky path between not pissing off left leaning voters enough that they stay home and right leaning voters don't vote for someone else. No leader since Blair has managed it and I don't think Starmer is the man to succeed either but I do think he veers more to worrying about losing centrist votes than left-leaning ones.


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## Serge Forward (Feb 10, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> I'm not criticising him, he can dream as big as he wants and maybe one day it will happen but here and now reality still as to be dealt with. I can't imagine that Unite trying to blackmail the Labour Party will end it anything but failure for them both.


It's not that far fetched. Look at what IWGB, UVW and CAIWU are doing literally on a shoestring. If Unite put the money splurged on Labour into proper on the job organising and campaigning, then there's no reason similar couldn't happen on much a larger scale (though I have my doubts about Unite seriously having the wherewithall to do this as they are still too tied into long defeated models of mainstream trade unionism). The first step in moving towards a more effective model would be to bin off the Labour scum.


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## Plumdaff (Feb 10, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> I don't think there is an anti-bin worker vote at all or a pro-bin worker vote for that matter. I think the core Labour vote is simply smaller than the core Tory one, any Labour Leader has to negotiate a somewhat tricky path between not pissing off left leaning voters enough that they stay home and right leaning voters don't vote for someone else. No leader since Blair has managed it and I don't think Starmer is the man to succeed either but I do think he veers more to worrying about losing centrist votes than left-leaning ones.



Labour has lost far more millions of votes to apathy and cynicism than to the Tories. In fact, a large part of the defeat in the "Red Wall" in 2019 was 2017 voters staying home (Brexit was a uniquely difficult problem for Labour, not least thanks to Starmer's actions) rather than everyone in the North loving Johnson. Labour can decide to chase a small amount of Tory-Labour vote switchers in a handful of seats in England by offering Toryism with a 'kinder' face, or it can try to win by getting non-voters out. A much harder job, but one that actually holds the possibility of improving working-class people's lives. It was almost successful in 2017. The Labour right was a massive part of why it wasn't, and why the subsequent sabotage and smearing that led to 2019 was. Why the fuck would I want my union to help these people?


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## Sue (Feb 10, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> I'm not criticising him, he can dream as big as he wants and maybe one day it will happen but here and now reality still as to be dealt with. I can't imagine that Unite trying to blackmail the Labour Party will end it anything but failure for them both.


'Blackmail' is a interesting word to use in this context.


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## two sheds (Feb 10, 2022)

yes I wondered about that. "We're giving you shitloads of money and getting nothing in return, we're thinking of not giving you shitloads of money"

That's blackmail


----------



## elbows (Feb 10, 2022)

I havent really paid enough attention to the rhetoric of the Stop the War coalition in recent years to be able to fully form an opinion on the following yet, but I expect its another clear example of Starmer trying to show his "middle ground" status quo credentials, wave some flags, and wind up the left, and there are plenty of Keir quotes in it that make me groan. He certainly resembles someone who wont be short of war rhetoric of his own if he ever finds himself in charge when such death opportunities knock.









						Keir Starmer accuses Stop the War coalition of siding with Nato’s enemies
					

Exclusive: Labour leader affirms support for transatlantic alliance and attacks organisation in which Jeremy Corbyn is leading figure




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Rob Ray (Feb 10, 2022)

Plumdaff said:


> It was almost successful in 2017


Tbh I think the left could stand to be a bit clearer-headed about 2017. It was _almost_ a hung Parliament, not a big left victory and certainly not one which, even in the best case scenario, would have given Corbynism room enough to do anything much apart from slowly implode under the weight of ongoing internal crisis while carrying the can for both Brexit fallout and a likely Parliamentary deadlock as Covid came in (if it even survived that long, which I don't think it would have). 

As it is, Corbynistas can at least say "we couldn't possibly have been worse than Johnson's crew" — in charge they would have been monstered as murderers no matter the death count.


----------



## killer b (Feb 10, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> It was _almost_ a hung Parliament


nah, it was _actually_ a hung parliament.


----------



## hitmouse (Feb 10, 2022)

elbows said:


> I havent really paid enough attention to the rhetoric of the Stop the War coalition in recent years to be able to fully form an opinion on the following yet, but I expect its another clear example of Starmer trying to show his "middle ground" status quo credentials, wave some flags, and wind up the left, and there are plenty of Keir quotes in it that make me groan. He certainly resembles someone who wont be short of war rhetoric of his own if he ever finds himself in charge when such death opportunities knock.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I mean, from what I've seen of StW a lot of that's probably true, but also hard to say what relevance they have to anything much in 2022. Is he going to enlighten us with his hot takes on the Libertines and Miss Dynamite next?


----------



## Rob Ray (Feb 10, 2022)

killer b said:


> nah, it was _actually_ a hung parliament.


Fine, technically for five minutes until the DUP inevitably jumped on board, for all it matters. Point is Corbynist Labour was nowhere near, at any point, getting into government, let alone with a majority, and was absolutely miles away from a workable one in which the left could actually do anything useful. And there's lots of reasons for that (not least because he came in well after the political left's reach had collapsed across much of Britain), but when comparing to Starmer's rightist approach we can't really say "if only he'd stayed left it could have been a winner" because it wasn't, not even against Theresa May.


----------



## Sprocket. (Feb 10, 2022)

Starmer will be beating Quakers up next and posting white feathers out.


----------



## ska invita (Feb 10, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> I think the core Labour vote is simply smaller than the core Tory one, any Labour Leader has to negotiate a somewhat tricky path between not pissing off left leaning voters enough that they stay home and right leaning voters don't vote for someone else.


Depends on definition of core: I think the key issue is less the size of core votes and more so the distribution across seats
But Labour Party history suggests that isnt the source of pandering to the right, its not just realpolitik calculations around vote share, its an ideological split thats been there from the start


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Feb 10, 2022)

ruffneck23 said:


> Labour facing bankruptcy as union donor Unite says it could pull remaining support
> 
> 
> Sir Keir says Labour will not be ‘influenced by threats’
> ...


It has never been the party for workers though. It is a party of the middle and upper classes and always has been.

Edit : Oh I see Serge Forward got there first


----------



## Serge Forward (Feb 10, 2022)

Though I wouldn't exactly say it's always been a party for the middle class. In the past it had mass working class membership, but politically, it's always been a leftish faction of capital.


----------



## redsquirrel (Feb 10, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> Unite is by far and away Labour's biggest donor so them withholding cash is going to hurt but it can't afford to have a parting of the ways with the Labour Party no matter how much it may be pissed off with them. What's it going to do then? donate money to the Tory Party or the LibDems? Labour is the ONLY political force that pays ANY attention to what the TUC or Unite think about anything.  Bankrupting them and helping to guarantee a permanent Tory government not the smartest move in the playbook. As for donating it to other political 'projects' they might as well just chuck their money on the fire and burn it the end result will be the same.


Yep TUs should just keep funnelling cash to the LP regardless of how it is attacking workers. The labour movement exists solely to put the LP into power. 

Unlike some other posters a Labour council is not directly attacking me at this moment but not one of our local Labour MPs has shown any support for the strikes we've had since 2018 and are about to enter again. Indeed we've more action from the Tory MPs (including the odious Philip Davies) than the labor ones.


----------



## redsquirrel (Feb 10, 2022)

Serge Forward said:


> They could give their money to the CBI. The result would be much the same.


Hell last year the CBI ended up to left of Labour, the LP making a far bigger deal about the rise in corporation tax than the CBI


----------



## RileyOBlimey (Feb 10, 2022)

He’s a waste of shit brylcreem.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Feb 10, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> I mean, from what I've seen of StW a lot of that's probably true, but also hard to say what relevance they have to anything much in 2022. Is he going to enlighten us with his hot takes on the Libertines and Miss Dynamite next?



Agree on point one. StW’s politics are shite. Much more interesting is your reference to The Libertines. Starmer probably ‘quite likes’ a few of their tracks, but overall prefers the more cerebral and gritty northern soul grooves of Elbow. Ideal for listening to in his boot cut jeans.


----------



## Sue (Feb 10, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Agree on point one. StW’s politics are shite. Much mode interesting is your reference to The Libertines. Starmer probably ‘quite likes’ a few of their tracks but overall prefers the more cerebral and gritty northern soul grooves of Elbow.


(((elbows)))


----------



## MickiQ (Feb 10, 2022)

Sue said:


> 'Blackmail' is a interesting word to use in this context.


Do X or we will penalise you by doing Y, of course it's blackmail, the first question is whether it is morally justifiable blackmail? An idea for which here at least there seems to be popular support  and the second question is whether or not it will achieve anything and I at least still think it will not.


----------



## Sue (Feb 10, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> Do X or we will penalise you by doing Y, of course it's blackmail, the first question is whether it is morally justifiable blackmail? An idea for which here at least there seems to be popular support  and the second question is whether or not it will achieve anything and I at least still think it will not.


'We voluntarily give you shedloads of money, we think you're shit and unless you stop being shit, we'll stop voluntarily giving you shedloads of money.'  Not sure that's blackmail, more stopping throwing good money after bad. 🤷‍♀️


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 10, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> Do X or we will penalise you by doing Y, of course it's blackmail, the first question is whether it is morally justifiable blackmail? An idea for which here at least there seems to be popular support  and the second question is whether or not it will achieve anything and I at least still think it will not.


Do you take the same tack with donors to the Tory party?


----------



## MickiQ (Feb 10, 2022)

Sue said:


> 'We voluntarily give you shedloads of money, we think you're shit and unless you stop being shit, we'll stop voluntarily giving you shedloads of money.'  Not sure that's blackmail, more stopping throwing good money after bad. 🤷‍♀️


That's honest at least perhaps you should apply to be their press officer.


Pickman's model said:


> Do you take the same tack with donors to the Tory party?


I think the kind of people who donate to the Tory Party do so because it is already doing the kind of things they want it to do. Unites beef is that they giving money to the Labour Party and it isn't doing what they want it  to.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 10, 2022)

Actually yes @ tory party but I pay electricity supplier a regular amount, I wouldn't keep doing it if they stopped supplying electricity.


----------



## belboid (Feb 10, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> Do X or we will penalise you by doing Y, of course it's blackmail, the first question is whether it is morally justifiable blackmail? An idea for which here at least there seems to be popular support  and the second question is whether or not it will achieve anything and I at least still think it will not.


If that’s the case, then Labour are simply running a protection racket.  “Give us the money or someone even nastier will come along.”


----------



## Sue (Feb 10, 2022)

belboid said:


> If that’s the case, then Labour are simply running a protection racket.  “Give us the money or someone even nastier will come along.”


See also Labour shafting their longstanding voters based on the same 'principle'.


----------



## Rob Ray (Feb 10, 2022)

The idea that politicians are independent of their sources of income has always been a conceit/bald-faced lie that favours the Tories.


----------



## MickiQ (Feb 10, 2022)

belboid said:


> If that’s the case, then Labour are simply running a protection racket.  “Give us the money or someone even nastier will come along.”


pretty much


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Feb 10, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> think the kind of people who donate to the Tory Party do so because it is already doing the kind of things they want it to do.


Or because they want billions of pounds of public money doors out by their chums in Government eh?


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Feb 10, 2022)

Serge Forward said:


> Though I wouldn't exactly say it's always been a party for the middle class. In the past it had mass working class membership, but politically, it's always been a leftish faction of capital.


Yeah I am aware that it used to have a largely working class membership in the past, but I would still not count it as ever being pro-working class. I mean this is a party that once forced working class people into labour camps for starters, and sent troops against striking workers etc. But as you say - it's always been a capitalist party.


----------



## MickiQ (Feb 10, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Or because they want billions of pounds of public money doors out by their chums in Government eh?


that's one of the things it's doing that they would like it to keep doing. The Tory Party is as bent as a £9 note, for all their many failings the LP is not even remotely in the same league.


----------



## andysays (Feb 10, 2022)

Are you a member of a union MickiQ ?


----------



## MickiQ (Feb 10, 2022)

andysays said:


> Are you a member of a union MickiQ ?


No I'm self-employed


----------



## andysays (Feb 10, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> No I'm self-employed


So do you contribute financially to the Labour Party in any way, or do you just expect others to do it and then accuse them of blackmail when they decide they don't want to do it any more?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Feb 10, 2022)

Serge Forward said:


> Promote working people fighting in their own class interests, back those in dispute, build fighting organisations, build for actions against the anti-union laws. *That all takes time and money, you know.* Fuck Labour. It's another party of the bosses.


Yeah, this stuff doesn't come for free. A union should be using its resources in the interests of its members and the working class in general. If funding Labour does that on balance, fine, if not, put them to better use.

It's not like resources can only be used in the context of political donations - that's awful talk.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Feb 10, 2022)

AmateurAgitator said:


> Yeah I am aware that it used to have a largely working class membership in the past, but I would still not count it as ever being pro-working class.



I’m not convinced it’s ever had a ‘largely working class membership’, but what is beyond doubt is that from the outset it’s intellectual, theoretical and cultural origins were solidly upper middle class (the Webbs for example, who found the proles nauseating unwashed ruffians who needed to be watched and controlled). Hence why your latter point is spot on


----------



## Geri (Feb 10, 2022)

elbows said:


> I havent really paid enough attention to the rhetoric of the Stop the War coalition in recent years to be able to fully form an opinion on the following yet, but I expect its another clear example of Starmer trying to show his "middle ground" status quo credentials, wave some flags, and wind up the left, and there are plenty of Keir quotes in it that make me groan. He certainly resembles someone who wont be short of war rhetoric of his own if he ever finds himself in charge when such death opportunities knock.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



He is 100% correct and it's refreshing to read this.


----------



## MickiQ (Feb 10, 2022)

andysays said:


> So do you contribute financially to the Labour Party in any way, or do you just expect others to do it and then accuse them of blackmail when they decide they don't want to do it any more?


Nope I don't contribute to them at all nor do I expect anyone else including Unite or its members to do, I'm not defending the Labour Party or Starmer and it's my point is what it was a few pages back. Unite (which claims to have some political influence) has the ear of no-one else in Govt beside the Labour Party and is threatening to cut them off from the funding it provides. I'm not denying their right to do so what  I am saying is that this will cost them that already limited influence and gain them nothing.
They want to do that then OK that's their choice but no-one else in power or anyone remotely near it gives even one shit what the Unite leadership thinks about anything.


----------



## hitmouse (Feb 10, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> Nope I don't contribute to them at all nor do I expect anyone else including Unite or its members to do, I'm not defending the Labour Party or Starmer and it's my point is what it was a few pages back. Unite (which claims to have some political influence) has the ear of no-one else in Govt beside the Labour Party and is threatening to cut them off from the funding it provides. I'm not denying their right to do so what  I am saying is that this will cost them that already limited influence and gain them nothing.
> They want to do that then OK that's their choice but no-one else in power or anyone remotely near it gives even one shit what the Unite leadership thinks about anything.


I mean, we might be going round in circles here, but influence is only really influence if you can get people to do things, I wouldn't really call it influence if it's like "can you stop using scabs to break our members' strike?" "No" "OK, would you like some more free money then?"
As for gaining them nothing, it will at least gain them the money that they're currently giving away?


----------



## MickiQ (Feb 10, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> I mean, we might be going round in circles here, but influence is only really influence if you can get people to do things, I wouldn't really call it influence if it's like "can you stop using scabs to break our members' strike?" "No" "OK, would you like some more free money then?"
> As for gaining them nothing, it will at least gain them the money that they're currently giving away?


At the moment their influence with the Labour Party isn't worth a lot however a couple of years ago under a different leader it was considerable though naturally the fact that Corbyn wasn't PM was always a handicap.
I seem to remember people complaining that he wasn't as vocal in his support of striking workers as they wanted him to be, whilst he was no doubt more sympathetic than the current wastrel he was equally constrained by his lack of actual authority.
Who's to say when Starmer loses the next election (which I am sure he will no matter what) that another more sympathetic leader won't take his place but even he/she will still have to win an election to actually have an effect on anything.
Money's a good point though they will have to decide whether they think it's buying them value, it's clear that people on this forum largely think no but we will see.


----------



## bluescreen (Feb 10, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> Money's a good point though they will have to decide whether they think it's buying them value


If only there were another way.


----------



## Serge Forward (Feb 10, 2022)

All this said, I'd like to be wrong, but I can't see Unite cutting the financial link, whether Graham wants to. It just too embedded into the Labour Party.


----------



## Sue (Feb 10, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> Who's to say when Starmer loses the next election (which I am sure he will no matter what) that another more sympathetic leader won't take his place but even he/she will still have to win an election to actually have an effect on anything.


So if that were to happen (though it seems very unlikely), the union could reconsider its position.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 10, 2022)

Geri said:


> He is 100% correct and it's refreshing to read this.


Good to see you posting


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Feb 10, 2022)

Anti-Revisionist Pop Band TheIanDuncanSmiths deliver a heavy blow to that renegade Starmer


----------



## redsquirrel (Feb 11, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> Nope I don't contribute to them at all nor do I expect anyone else including Unite or its members to do, I'm not defending the Labour Party or Starmer and it's my point is what it was a few pages back. Unite (which claims to have some political influence) has the ear of no-one else in Govt beside the Labour Party and is threatening to cut them off from the funding it provides. I'm not denying their right to do so what  I am saying is that this will cost them that already limited influence and gain them nothing.


But you are defending the Labour Party. _Labour are not good but they are the only alternative _is a defence, a really poor once but nevertheless a defence.You have specifically ruled out any alternatives but the LP.

And what it will gain Unite is money not being wasted, money that can be spent on defending members conditions and attacking employers. Moreover your proposal actual removes any influence from Unite. If they keep on just feeding the LP money, regardless of what the LP does then they don't have any influence. If they do want to influence the LP then they need to be credible when they say that that there will be consequences for actions.


----------



## ska invita (Feb 11, 2022)

Geri said:


> He is 100% correct and it's refreshing to read this.


100%? There can be a tendency amongst STW leadership towards reactionary anti-imperialism, but STW criticism of NATO expansionism and Western exceptionalism is fundamentally correct IMO

Is there something you have read STW say about the Ukraine conflict you explicitly disagree with?









						Playing With Fire: Diplomacy Must Prevail Over Ukraine
					

Even the Ukrainian foreign minister is calling for calm following Johnson’s visit to Kyiv  Terina Hine...




					www.stopwar.org.uk


----------



## andysays (Feb 11, 2022)

MickiQ and others might be interested in an email I (and other Unite members) had the other day


​

_Dear andysays,_
_Working people do not need lectures from the Governor of the Bank of England on the cost of living, writes the General Secretary_​_This month the RPI rose to 7.5% and the difference between that and the Government’s preferred but inadequate measure of inflation (CPI) is now 2.1%. This means that the cost of basic goods and services is rising at a rate not seen for many years.
In response, the Governor of the Bank of England recently called for “pay restraint”. Our response is simple. Working people will not pay for a crisis they did not cause. We will be demanding that employers who can pay, do pay. Wage restraint is nothing more than a call for a national pay cut.
Negotiations covering well over half of Unite’s members are due to start before the end of April. That is 500,000 workers relying on their Union to safeguard living standards. Everyone understands that talk and action are different things. And as trade unions we are in the fortunate position of being able to do something about the situation ourselves.
Many firms are sitting on piles of cash and making profits. We cannot afford to treat this year’s negotiations as a routine to follow. With costs rising it is now time to change tack.
As we speak, we are investing in resources that will allow us to scrutinise the finances of employers – to see what the real ability to pay is. And we now have the first of our Combines set up and ready to roll. In addition, I am pleased to announce that plans are underway to deliver new activist training that will further tool up our Reps – deeper analysis of accounts, analysing who really makes decisions and spreading best practice in campaigning and disputes.
These actions are the start of a long term plan to give you everything you need to help make real, meaningful judgements as to your bargaining position. But as inflation rises and our members take the hit, we cannot afford to wait. This year, where we can make progress, we need to make sure that we do._

TL;DR we can't wait for the Labour Party to help us, we need to focus on acting for ourselves now​


----------



## MickiQ (Feb 11, 2022)

redsquirrel said:


> But you are defending the Labour Party. _Labour are not good but they are the only alternative _is a defence, a really poor once but nevertheless a defence.You have specifically ruled out any alternatives but the LP.
> 
> And what it will gain Unite is money not being wasted, money that can be spent on defending members conditions and attacking employers. Moreover your proposal actual removes any influence from Unite. If they keep on just feeding the LP money, regardless of what the LP does then they don't have any influence. If they do want to influence the LP then they need to be credible when they say that that there will be consequences for actions.


Some very good points there and yes you've got my argument in a nutshell but I still don't see any alternative (currently) to the Labour Party, not ruling out alternatives won't cause them to exist.
Another interesting point is your statement that money can be spent elsewhere, can it? Political donations are a separate fund which members can opt out of, if this money isn't being passed along to a registered political party then I would imagine that Unite probably wouldn't just be allowed to keep it but would have to stop collecting it. I suspect quite a bit of it is going it initially end up in the hands of lawyers.


andysays said:


> MickiQ and others might be interested in an email I (and other Unite members) had the other day
> 
> 
> ​
> ...


Well a man on half a million a year lecturing folks on or barely above the breadline about pay restraint was always going to go down like a cup of cold vomit. This is exactly what a Union is for, they will have some successes and some failures but I wish them well.


----------



## Serge Forward (Feb 11, 2022)

andysays said:


> MickiQ and others might be interested in an email I (and other Unite members) had the other day
> 
> 
> ​
> ...


Andrew Bailey: the gall of a parasite - Anarchist Communist Group


----------



## andysays (Feb 11, 2022)

Serge Forward said:


> Andrew Bailey: the gall of a parasite - Anarchist Communist Group


Thanks, will read later


----------



## Spandex (Feb 11, 2022)

Plumdaff said:


> Liverpool Council initially won concessions and money from the Conservative government and there was a growing national campaign across left-wing councils. Labour refused to back its own councils against Thatcher and the start of the decades-long squeeze on local autonomy went into full swing.
> 
> This is yet another reason why backing the Labour right is a hiding to nothing, not a reason to concede eternal defeat to Westminster.


Whenever local government cuts come up, Militant in Liverpool are bought up as an example of what councils can do, but since 1985 a number of laws have been bought in to prevent that situation arising again.

The Local Government Finance Act 1988 created a legal duty for the council's Chief Finance Officer to report if there is likely to be an unbalanced budget.

The Local Government Finance Act 1992 created a legal duty for Councils to set a balanced budget and set dates for when the budget must be announced.

The Local Government Act 1999 meant a failure to set a balanced budget gave the Secretary of State powers to intervene, setting their own budget for the council, appointing Commissioners who can dismiss any statutory position (such as the Cheif Finance Officer) from within the Council and making Councillors personally liable for costs of setting an unlawful budget.

If a council was to deliberately set an unbalanced budget now they would be taken over by central government comissioners who would force them to balance their budget, probably by selling off council assets and forcing cuts, and Councillors could be made personally bankrupt having been charged with malfeasance and misconduct in public office.

Militant wouldn't have stood a chance of success under the current legal framework. Local Councils are powerless to do anything other than stick to their budgets. Which is something George Osborne was well aware of when he piled austerity cuts onto local councils, knowing perfectly well that a lot of the damage caused by austerity would be blamed on local councils rather than central government. 

None of which excuses Labour Councillors from being useless shits who meekly went along with it all and especially Ed Milliband's Labour party for accepting the Tory lie that the 2008 financial crash and its consequences were somehow all the fault of Labour's overspending and accepting the austerity that continues to blight the country.


----------



## PR1Berske (Feb 11, 2022)




----------



## AmateurAgitator (Feb 11, 2022)

PR1Berske said:


>


----------



## killer b (Feb 11, 2022)

due to this presumably:









						Henry Dyer: A personal statement on my interaction with Neil Coyle
					

Henry Dyer has accused Neil Coyle MP of racist abuse. This is his story in his words.




					www.businessinsider.com


----------



## Rob Ray (Feb 11, 2022)

I confidently await a deluge of outraged headlines and opinion columns about how reluctant to deal with racism Kier Starmer's Labour is after his party waited an entire week, until a piece had popped off in the media, to act on serious allegations of racist behaviour by a senior Parliamentarian.

Also this.


----------



## steveseagull (Feb 11, 2022)

So Starmer and his team of fuckwitted boomers got totally rinsed by a tech company.









						Labour blew $1.3 million pursuing "anti-Semitism" leakers
					

Secret document shows how party tried to suppress embarrassing report.




					electronicintifada.net


----------



## Humberto (Feb 12, 2022)

Under my leadership, Labour’s commitment to Nato is unshakable | Keir Starmer
					

Our party was foundational in forming the postwar alliance, which – as Ukraine shows – remains essential today, says Labour leader Keir Starmer




					www.theguardian.com
				




Can't agree with his analysis on NATO membership (why 'Nato' btw even NATO spells it 'NATO').

'Unshakeable support' = grotesque partisan profiteering for the masters of war that poison the planet and stamp on it's weakest.


----------



## B.I.G (Feb 12, 2022)

Humberto said:


> Under my leadership, Labour’s commitment to Nato is unshakable | Keir Starmer
> 
> 
> Our party was foundational in forming the postwar alliance, which – as Ukraine shows – remains essential today, says Labour leader Keir Starmer
> ...



Its the guardian style.


----------



## Humberto (Feb 12, 2022)

It's not just the Guardian, but it's obviously a minor point.


----------



## B.I.G (Feb 12, 2022)

Humberto said:


> It's not just the Guardian, but it's obviously a minor point.



I didn’t see the point in you making it. But I thought I’d answer your question.


----------



## Humberto (Feb 12, 2022)

Can you fuck off back to Dulwich forum if you've nothing worth saying?


----------



## B.I.G (Feb 12, 2022)

Humberto said:


> Can you fuck off back to Dulwich forum if you've nothing worth saying?



You were the one asking questions you apparently knew the answer to. 

I must have missed your worthwhile points.


----------



## Humberto (Feb 12, 2022)

As I say...


----------



## two sheds (Feb 12, 2022)

B.I.G said:


> You were the one asking questions you apparently knew the answer to.
> 
> I must have missed your worthwhile points.


told me I was laughing too much


----------



## Humberto (Feb 12, 2022)

'Unshakeable support' = grotesque partisan profiteering for the masters of war that poison the planet and stamp on it's weakest.


----------



## Humberto (Feb 12, 2022)

It's only Afghans, Yemenis, besides we've got memes now. And cats.


----------



## Dom Traynor (Feb 12, 2022)

Humberto said:


> 'Unshakeable support' = grotesque partisan profiteering for the masters of war that poison the planet and stamp on it's weakest.


You said that already.


----------



## Humberto (Feb 12, 2022)

Dom Traynor said:


> You said that already.



So?


----------



## Dom Traynor (Feb 12, 2022)

Humberto said:


> So?


I'm just curious as to why you repeated it?


----------



## Humberto (Feb 12, 2022)

Because it needs discussing in light of Starmer's clearly myopic and frankly destructive comments. Or not, others took issue.


----------



## Humberto (Feb 12, 2022)

I mean this would go without saying even 5-6 years ago (what would? That it would need discussing)


----------



## Dom Traynor (Feb 12, 2022)

Humberto said:


> Because it needs discussing in light of Starmer's clearly myopic and frankly destructive comments. Or not, others took issue.


It was being discussed wasnt it? No need to quote yourself.


----------



## Humberto (Feb 12, 2022)

I reiterated


----------



## Humberto (Feb 12, 2022)

And only by me in the face of, what?


----------



## Humberto (Feb 12, 2022)

OOHHHH


----------



## two sheds (Feb 12, 2022)

everyone agreeing with you?


----------



## Humberto (Feb 12, 2022)

Sorry too stupid. Can't make response


----------



## Dom Traynor (Feb 12, 2022)

U OK hun?


----------



## platinumsage (Feb 13, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Well here's a clincher: skwakwbox who I honestly don't usually look at but are going to be the impartial source on this
> 
> 
> 
> ...



On the subject of Skwawkbox they seem to have confused the film set of The Crown with reality:


----------



## teqniq (Feb 14, 2022)

Another union may disaffiliate:









						ASLEF union threatens to cut ties with Labour as Starmer's row with Left grows
					

The move by ASLEF to sever its bond with Labour comes as Keir Starmer clashes with Unite's Sharon Graham over funding




					www.mirror.co.uk


----------



## Peter Painter (Feb 14, 2022)

AmateurAgitator said:


> Yeah I am aware that it used to have a largely working class membership in the past, but I would still not count it as ever being pro-working class. I mean this is a party that once forced working class people into labour camps for starters, and sent troops against striking workers etc. But as you say - it's always been a capitalist party.



The Labour Party was fucked by the middle classes before it even started. I blame the Fabien Society.


----------



## PR1Berske (Feb 14, 2022)




----------



## NoXion (Feb 14, 2022)

I'd actually think even less of Starmer if his stated position was to go crawling back to the EU like some snivelling cur.


----------



## billy_bob (Feb 14, 2022)

Oh good - some rare indication of what Starmer's Labour actually thinks about something. Just a shame it's such inept, futile bullshit.

Labour will look at ‘naming and shaming’ scheme for people convicted of buying drugs


----------



## SpookyFrank (Feb 14, 2022)

billy_bob said:


> Oh good - some rare indication of what Starmer's Labour actually thinks about something. Just a shame it's such inept, futile bullshit.
> 
> Labour will look at ‘naming and shaming’ scheme for people convicted of buying drugs



Yeah stealing policies from Richard Nixon is clearly the way to a shiny new future


----------



## Cerv (Feb 14, 2022)

is this entirely just an attempt to be able to apply it to Boris Johnson once he's out?


----------



## Serge Forward (Feb 14, 2022)

There are just no depths to which Labour will not sink. What's next? Bring back the birch?


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Feb 14, 2022)

billy_bob said:


> Oh good - some rare indication of what Starmer's Labour actually thinks about something. Just a shame it's such inept, futile bullshit.
> 
> Labour will look at ‘naming and shaming’ scheme for people convicted of buying drugs


Congratulations to drugs for winning the war on drugs


----------



## NoXion (Feb 14, 2022)

billy_bob said:


> Oh good - some rare indication of what Starmer's Labour actually thinks about something. Just a shame it's such inept, futile bullshit.
> 
> Labour will look at ‘naming and shaming’ scheme for people convicted of buying drugs



Stupid and ineffectual. Just like Starmer's Labour Party, so entirely in character.

Honestly don't get how this is supposed to work. When I move into an area am I supposed to go around saying, "Hello, I'm your new neighbour and I'm legally obligated to inform you that I got done for buying an eighth of skunk"? 

I can see two main reactions: 

"Erm, OK, whatever?", or 

"Do you still have your dealer's number?"


----------



## pesh (Feb 14, 2022)

I'd be pretty ashamed if all the people that know me were told I couldn't even buy drugs successfully.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Feb 14, 2022)

another one to try and make the daily fail readers think that maybe he's more nice and respectable than most labour leaders (before they go and vote tory anyway)


----------



## ska invita (Feb 14, 2022)

Starmers whole pitch is going to be based on CRIME and how he's basically a cop and theyre going to turbo it up and make out the Tories are rule-breakers.


----------



## PR1Berske (Feb 14, 2022)

That's reminding me of Blair's "march them up to a cash machine" policy


----------



## two sheds (Feb 14, 2022)

Well if it's popular with focus groups who are we to argue?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Feb 15, 2022)

Not even actual crime though. Not even _dealing _drugs ffs.


----------



## Funky_monks (Feb 15, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> Wouldn't argue with you but what alternatives do you imagine there are?


Not donating to am organisation with values in direct opposition to theirs?


----------



## Chilli.s (Feb 15, 2022)

Like giving free advertising to busted dealers to help get them back in the game


----------



## billy_bob (Feb 15, 2022)

AmateurAgitator said:


> Congratulations to drugs for winning the war on drugs



What is it, a 40-year unbroken run of victories so far? They must be doing something right.


----------



## Chilli.s (Feb 15, 2022)

I completely despair at the current LP


----------



## two sheds (Feb 15, 2022)

It's another way that Rodney's getting back at all the young labour members who've left over the last two years.


----------



## PR1Berske (Feb 15, 2022)




----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 15, 2022)

PR1Berske said:


>



The first thing the successful candidate should get are plans of Tory hq to aid in planning a raid on the headquarters of the bourgeoisie


----------



## splonkydoo (Feb 15, 2022)

PR1Berske said:


>




70 grand for talking shite and making things up. Where do I sign up?


----------



## splonkydoo (Feb 15, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> The first thing the successful candidate should get are plans of Tory hq to aid in planning a raid on the headquarters of the bourgeoisie



The Labour partys plan is to replace the bourgeoisie alright, just not in the way you think.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 15, 2022)

splonkydoo said:


> The Labour party's plan is to replace the bourgeoisie alright, just not in the way you think.


The labour hq is the reserve headquarters of the bourgeoisie


----------



## hitmouse (Feb 15, 2022)

Briefly wondered if that might be a wind-up, but it's real:








						Current Vacancies - Director of Attack & Rebuttal - The Labour Party
					






					labour.org.uk
				




Closes on Thursday, so better hurry if you want to get your applications in.


----------



## billy_bob (Feb 15, 2022)

You have to be able to attack the poor and needy and rebut any suggestion that you are a left-wing party, I assume?


----------



## billy_bob (Feb 15, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> Briefly wondered if that might be a wind-up, but it's real:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I do like the fact that your quote box shows the words 'Current vacancies' right next to a picture of a grinning Starmer.


----------



## Sprocket. (Feb 15, 2022)

billy_bob said:


> I do like the fact that your quote box shows the words 'Current vacancies' right next to a picture of a grinning Starmer.


Be better if it said ‘Sits’ Vacant.


----------



## andysays (Feb 15, 2022)

PR1Berske said:


>




It seems a little odd that it specifies the bit about a fixed term contract for as long as Starmer remains Leader of the Labour Party and Leader of the Opposition.

Or is that sort of thing standard/common?


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 15, 2022)

70k a year for some cambell redux cunt while staff are facing redundancy and considering strikes.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 15, 2022)

Are death threats against Keir Starmer really a big deal, Richard Madeley asks
					

Anger as viewers point out two MPs have been killed




					www.independent.co.uk
				






> "Now we learned yesterday that Keir Starmer says he's getting death threats online – people calling for his execution," Mr Madeley said.
> 
> His guest, Conservative commentator Andrew Pierce, replied: "Well I think politicians get that all the time."
> 
> The presenter Mr Madeley added: "I was going to say, actually, is that that big a deal?


politicians get that all the time ... is that that big a deal? ... would anybody really notice?


----------



## hitmouse (Feb 15, 2022)

andysays said:


> It seems a little odd that it specifies the bit about a fixed term contract for as long as Starmer remains Leader of the Labour Party and Leader of the Opposition.
> 
> Or is that sort of thing standard/common?


I dunno enough about Party jobs to be able to answer, but I did realise that presumably means that, if Labour were to win an election, this person would be contractually out of a job?


----------



## andysays (Feb 15, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> I dunno enough about Party jobs to be able to answer, but I did realise that presumably means that, if Labour were to win an election, this person would be contractually out of a job?


It certainly reads like that, though I think it's more likely that a Starmer-led Labour would lose the next GE and the job would go when Starmer is (presumably) replaced.

Either way, it doesn't look like a great long term career move...


----------



## belboid (Feb 15, 2022)

The job wouldn’t exist any more if Starmer won. You don’t need to attack and counter in the same way if you are in government and you’ll have civil servants to help you too.  The appointee would be well lined up for another appointment tho.


----------



## Gramsci (Feb 15, 2022)

About the billy_bob post about naming and shaming this interview in Mirror with Justice Minister Steve Reed.









						Steve Reed on Justice - 'Days when Labour cared more about criminals are over'
					

New Shadow Justice Secretary Steve Reed moved to harden Labour's line on law and order - and told how having a knife held to his throat 20 years ago affects him today




					www.mirror.co.uk
				




The Naming and Shaming of people who buy drugs is old idea of Steve's going back to his days when he led Lambeth council. At time a flagship New Labour led borough. I can't remember it lasting long or having any effect 

Corbyn did give Steve Reed a post when he was leader. Despite that the Mirror interview he is saying how last ten years of Labour (this would include Ed Miliband) have been a mistake and it's time to get back to Blairite politics.

Worse it is saying under Corbyn the party cared more about criminals than victims. 

It's back to outflanking the Tories on crime.


----------



## Dom Traynor (Feb 15, 2022)

belboid said:


> The job wouldn’t exist any more if Starmer won. You don’t need to attack and counter in the same way if you are in government and you’ll have civil servants to help you too.  The appointee would be well lined up for another appointment tho.


Yes it's perfectly normal for senior political roles to work like this. And acceptable in my view. I would also argue that the salary is about right for a director role in a centre left organisation.


----------



## MickiQ (Feb 15, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Are death threats against Keir Starmer really a big deal, Richard Madeley asks
> 
> 
> Anger as viewers point out two MPs have been killed
> ...


Depends on whether someone tries to carry them out I suppose.


----------



## Plumdaff (Feb 15, 2022)

Gramsci said:


> About the billy_bob post about naming and shaming this interview in Mirror with Justice Minister Steve Reed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Steve Reed was witnessed doing the conga around the Brixton Bar and Grill with his Blairite colleagues the night they managed to pass Lambeth's first austerity budget.


----------



## Gramsci (Feb 15, 2022)

Plumdaff said:


> Steve Reed was witnessed doing the conga around the Brixton Bar and Grill with his Blairite colleagues the night they managed to pass Lambeth's first austerity budget.



Steve Reed forced the popular Cllr Abrams out when he was leader. Anyone in Labour group who didn't worship Tony Blair was hounded out. Cllr Abrams opposed cuts.









						Exclusive: Ex-Lambeth Cllr Kingsley Abrams resigns from Labour party to carry on fighting cuts
					

Kingsley Abrams has tendered his resignation from the Labour party. The former Lambeth Councillor made his decision after his extensive Labour party experience was over-looked



					www.brixtonbuzz.com
				




Kate Hoey MP to her credit tried to support Cllr Abrams

Bit off the thread. But shows the right of the party are much more ruthless than the left of the party.

Steve Reed didn't argue politics he just made sure Abrams was given no other option but to go.









						MP Reed ordered investigation of councillor emails at Lambeth
					

Steve Reed OBE, the MP for Croydon North, had a fellow Labour councillor’s emails spied upon when he was the leader of Lambeth Council last year, according to an official answer provided at B…




					insidecroydon.com
				




Cllr Abrams crime was to pass on info to Kate Hoey MP. Who always was a thorn in side of New Labour Lambeth

Good people like Abrams end up through no fault of their own getting no where. Whilst someone like Reed climbs the greasy pole.


----------



## Humberto (Feb 16, 2022)

Own administrative employees not happy.


----------



## Humberto (Feb 16, 2022)

Meanwhile tieing themselves to corporate donors.


----------



## Humberto (Feb 16, 2022)

You have to sell out, ruin your own members and voters to win. NAH


----------



## PR1Berske (Feb 16, 2022)




----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 16, 2022)

PR1Berske said:


>



But what do you think?


----------



## teqniq (Feb 16, 2022)

Not a good look:


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Feb 16, 2022)

"Keir Starmer says Labour will battle antisocial behaviour in police"

sounds a good idea

"Keir Starmer says Labour will battle antisocial behaviour in police 
crackdown vow"

oh


----------



## oryx (Feb 16, 2022)

teqniq said:


> Not a good look:



Fucking hell, that's pure contempt.


----------



## Humberto (Feb 16, 2022)

I suppose the idea is that he can be 'electable'; which may be worthwhile in the short term considering how hostile the media is to those figures and leaders deemed too left wing, badgering and undermining them, scaremongering. He's colouring in within the lines. Not sure sneering at the idea of a place called Coventry will help things.


----------



## Chilli.s (Feb 17, 2022)

Ineffectual, rhymes with electable


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Feb 17, 2022)

teqniq said:


> Not a good look:



I wasn't expecting as much contempt as that, did what said on tin


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Feb 17, 2022)

teqniq said:


> Not a good look:




Coventry: the birthplace of Larkin and The Specials and The Selector. A place central to the industrial development of Britain where car making, bike making, cycle making and machine tool shops (which Starmer’s own dad later drew a living from) created a multi racial vibrant working class city. A city that elected Dave Nellist as an MP and then after expulsion from Labour as a Militant councillor. A city integral to new forms of trade union organisation centred around car making and also women workers.

A union city - with an organised working class - that’s struggled after being smashed by Thatcher and deindustrialisation. A city that kept voting labour despite labour doing nothing for it as the bins dispute shows us again.

The sneering, middle class north London contempt, in Starmers’s voice at the thought of it betrays an embarrassingly poor grasp of the development of the English (multiracial) working class, and with one word, shows why Labour has been dying in places like this for _years_. It might still vote Labour but the relationship between the city and the party is an long estranged one.


----------



## Sprocket. (Feb 17, 2022)

teqniq said:


> Not a good look:



I hope all our trade union brothers and sisters in Coventry and across the country see this slipping of the mask.


----------



## Serge Forward (Feb 17, 2022)

"Cuh-hoventry..." the vile cunt.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 17, 2022)

Serge Forward said:


> "Cuh-hoventry..." the vile cunt.


Oxted folk only know the place as somewhere they send the manager of their local Waitrose when he fails to re-stock the Nocellara olive shelf.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 17, 2022)

Sounds like Starmer wants me to vote for the yellow tories in my constituency.


----------



## ska invita (Feb 17, 2022)

teqniq said:


> Not a good look:



on top of that his position on "industrial disputes" is that they should "end". Power stance


----------



## Sprocket. (Feb 17, 2022)

Starmer here shows he is both dismal and abysmal.


----------



## Chz (Feb 17, 2022)

brogdale said:


> Sounds like Starmer wants me to vote for the yellow tories in my constituency.


That's unfortunate. I did vote for the yellow tory here for many years because, for all the party's faults, he was a good local MP. But having been defeated by the proper Tories at the last election I was going to vote Labour. Apparently I shouldn't now.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Feb 17, 2022)

ska invita said:


> on top of that his position on "industrial disputes" is that they should "end". Power stance



There’s the obvious falsehood that the Labour Party is some sort of disinterested bystander rather than one of the participants. There’s also the conscious and stomach churning revival of the Blairite lie that all strikes are always unnecessary and therefore wrong. Added on top is the surprisingly hostile briefing against Unite for having the temerity to fight for its members material interests.

All of this makes me wonder what more Labour has to do before some ‘socialists’ get the message?


----------



## hitmouse (Feb 17, 2022)

ska invita said:


> on top of that his position on "industrial disputes" is that they should "end". Power stance


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Feb 19, 2022)

Kaka Tim said:


> Angela Raynor would be the obvious candidate - working class, good people skills, witty, popular, good communicator and with an eye catching back story - a perfect riposte to posh, elite johnson in a way starmer could never be. Leftish without being as scary as Jezza. Surprised she didnt go for it last time. She's also  driven and ambitious - so wouldn't be at all surprised if we see close associates of her briefing against kieth in the near future.


Her views on what the police should do with suspected terrorists are scary though. "shoot first and ask questions later". Just imagine how the family of Jean Charles De Menezes would feel about that. What a fucking arsehole Rayner is. There's no other way of putting it really. But that was already my opinion of her (and Andy Burnham), because of her refusal to oppose the tory welfare bill  in 2015- which amounted to support for it.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Feb 19, 2022)

AmateurAgitator said:


> Her views on what the police should do with suspected terrorists are scary though. "shoot first and ask questions later". Just imagine how the family of Jean Charles De Menezes would feel about that. What a fucking arsehole Raynor is. There's no other way of putting it really. But that was already my opinion of her (and Andy Burnham), because of her refusal to oppose the tory welfare bill  in 2015- which amounted to support for it.


yeah - that was a pathetic bit of posturing from Raynor.


----------



## Dom Traynor (Feb 20, 2022)

Rayner.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Feb 20, 2022)

Dom Traynor said:


> Rayner.



Yes, very important show an unhinged gobshite due deferrence by spelling her name correctly.

Not least because if you don't, she might have you shot.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 20, 2022)

SpookyFrank said:


> Yes, very important show an unhinged gobshite due deferrence by spelling her name correctly.
> 
> Not least because if you don't, she might have you shot.


I reckon she should henceforth be known as _hollow-point_


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Feb 20, 2022)

Kaka Tim said:


> yeah - that was a pathetic bit of posturing from Raynor.


Personally, I don't think she would have said something like that if she didn't mean it. I don't think it was just posturing.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 20, 2022)

brogdale said:


> I reckon she should henceforth be known as _hollow-point_


Bungalow


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Feb 24, 2022)

Starmer: Labour will partner with private sector and take advantage of Brexit
					

Leader will name six principles for the economy under a Labour government in a speech on Thursday




					www.theguardian.com
				




how to piss off any socialists left in the party AND the remainers / rejoiners in one go


----------



## TopCat (Feb 24, 2022)

Starmer: Labour will partner with private sector and take advantage of Brexit
					

Leader will name six principles for the economy under a Labour government in a speech on Thursday




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## two sheds (Feb 24, 2022)

Perhaps we'll have more wonderful initiatives like this one - job done 



> 1. Public private partnerships: innovative approaches to extend healthcare provision​The UK was the first country in the world to develop the concept of public private partnerships (PPPs) for public services projects. Through partnership with the private sector, PPPs enable the delivery of efficient, cost-effective and measurable public services within modern facilities whilst minimising the financial risk.





> More than 20 years since the UK launched its first private finance initiative (PFI), the benefits of healthy citizens to a nation’s economy and growth are even clearer.  Many countries are experiencing a rising demand for healthcare services, whilst continuing to have constraints on public resources available to fund such developments.
> 
> 
> PPPs offer innovative and entrepreneurial approaches to providing the services and facilities demanded of 21st century healthcare. The emphasis is on generating quality service outputs rather than treating building infrastructure as an end in itself. Also, the creation of strong partnerships is moving service delivery away from a project-by-project approach to one that includes strategic and policy developments for long-term results.







__





						Healthcare: Public Private Partnerships
					






					www.gov.uk


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 24, 2022)

TopCat said:


> Starmer: Labour will partner with private sector and take advantage of Brexit
> 
> 
> Leader will name six principles for the economy under a Labour government in a speech on Thursday
> ...


well does he deserve the name of shammer


----------



## steveseagull (Feb 24, 2022)

Starmer has spent the day working out how he can start a new factional battle in the Labour Party.


----------



## billy_bob (Feb 24, 2022)

To be fair, he may well have _successfully _worked that out, so you know ... time well spent.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Feb 24, 2022)

I hope he kicks them out, the fucking sense of self-righteousness and ego to come out with that on a day like today.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 24, 2022)

sleaterkinney said:


> I hope he kicks them out, the fucking sense of self-righteousness and ego to come out with that on a day like today.


Yes, they should all be aligned behind shammer and not say what they think


----------



## ska invita (Feb 24, 2022)

steveseagull said:


> Starmer has spent the day working out how he can start a new factional battle in the Labour Party.



the list

Diane Abbott John McDonnell Richard Burgon Ian Lavery Beth Winter Zarah Sultana Bell Ribeiro-Addy Apsana Begum Mick Whitley Tahir Ali Ian Mearns


----------



## ska invita (Feb 24, 2022)

sleaterkinney said:


> on a day like today.


a good day for despots - perfect day for it


----------



## steveseagull (Feb 24, 2022)

sleaterkinney said:


> I hope he kicks them out, the fucking sense of self-righteousness and ego to come out with that on a day like today.


How Putinist.


----------



## PR1Berske (Feb 24, 2022)

Change UK II? They could join Corbyn for his Peace Party and then Labour will have experienced a mass defection from both wings!


----------



## belboid (Feb 24, 2022)

They've all withdrawn their signatures now, according to labourlist


----------



## steveseagull (Feb 24, 2022)

Just Ben Bradshaw accusing his colleagues of Nazi apologism, hours after Putin gave the pretext that he was fighting the neo nazi Ukranian government for the same reasons.

The labour right really are some of the worst people on this planet.


----------



## PR1Berske (Feb 24, 2022)




----------



## killer b (Feb 24, 2022)

These are more or less the exact kind of actions that Corbyn should have been taking against the Labour right when he had the chance tbf


----------



## PR1Berske (Feb 24, 2022)




----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 24, 2022)

PR1Berske said:


>



Shammer is always on the side of the big battalions and never on the side of the wealth creators


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 24, 2022)

sleaterkinney said:


> I hope he kicks them out, the fucking sense of self-righteousness and ego to come out with that on a day like today.


The sense of self-righteousness and ego is from Starmer. He has unilaterally declared that to be in the Labour Party you must be pro-NATO.


----------



## killer b (Feb 24, 2022)

Rather than whining about the entirely predictable actions of the Labour leadership, maybe consider that we're yet again seeing a totally avoidable tactical mis-step by the Labour left in parliament, who deserve every bit of the political irrelevance they're rapidly backing themselves into. Clown shoed cunts.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Feb 24, 2022)

littlebabyjesus said:


> The sense of self-righteousness and ego is from Starmer. He has unilaterally declared that to be in the Labour Party you must be pro-NATO.



The STW statement is dissembling nonsense in places, and it’s an organisation well beyond its sell-by date. The MPs who signed their statement need to give their heads a wobble. It doesn’t even express basic solidarity or concern with the ordinary people currently living in a war zone

But, you are spot on with the broader point. It should be perfectly possible to condemn what is happening in Ukraine but still hold a rounded and penetrating analysis of NATO. And, of course, historically, Labour MPs have at times been sharply critical of NATO. For someone allegedly so ‘clever’ and ‘forensic’ Starmer has an embarrassingly binary understanding of politics.


----------



## killer b (Feb 24, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> For someone allegedly so ‘clever’ and ‘forensic’ Starmer has an embarrassingly binary understanding of politics.


he's just taking the opportunity offered by current events to crush some enemies. fair enough.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Feb 24, 2022)

killer b said:


> he's just taking the opportunity offered by current events to crush some enemies. fair enough.



Correct, but if those enemies are stupid enough to sign a statement like the STW one then he’s going to get a free pass to do it. They could, you know, have written their own statement condemning Putin and the invasion, offering full solidarity with those currently dying/living in fear and then broadened it out to a wider statement on the dead end of geo-political game playing. They could have got unions and others to sign up. They could have used thejr position to launch a programme of practical steps that could be taken to provide basic assistance to those under attack. 

Starmer would have found kicking them in those circumstances much much harder and it would serve to counterpose their approach with his.


----------



## killer b (Feb 24, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Correct, but if those enemies are stupid enough to sign a statement like the STW one then he’s going to get a free pass to do it. They could, you know, written their own statement condemning Putin and the invasion, offering full solidarity with those currently dying/living in fear and then broadened it out to a wider statement on the dead end of geo-political game playing. They could have got unions and other to sign up. Launched a programme of practical steps that could be taken to provide basic assistance to those under attack. Just a thought…


Don't disagree at all, they're thick as mince. But what's being shown here isn't Starmer's binary understanding of politics is all. Partly it's about demonstrating to the red wall focus group guys who spent the Corbyn years complaining that they didn't know what side he and Labour were on what side they're on, partly it's about humiliating the Labour left in parliament because they gave him the opportunity. Probably there's other strategic aims less obvious that I haven't thought of being served too.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Feb 24, 2022)

Here’s the Young Labour statement. The SCG MPs could have signed this:


----------



## billy_bob (Feb 24, 2022)

sleaterkinney said:


> I hope he kicks them out, the fucking sense of self-righteousness and ego to come out with that on a day like today.



Imagine that - what kind of cunt wouldn't just abandon a principled anti-war stance when a war starts, eh?


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 24, 2022)

sleaterkinney said:


> I hope he kicks them out, the fucking sense of self-righteousness and ego to come out with that on a day like today.


I think we all know what you'd have said about any labour or independent labour politician who'd refused to vote war credits in 1914


----------



## sleaterkinney (Feb 24, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> I think we all know what you'd have said about any labour or independent labour politician who'd refused to vote war credits in 1914


I stick to the current century tbh.


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 24, 2022)

billy_bob said:


> Imagine that - what kind of cunt wouldn't just abandon a principled anti-war stance when a war starts, eh?



So principled they removed their names from the letter when their careers were threatened


----------



## Cerv (Feb 24, 2022)

Shechemite said:


> So principled they removed their names from the letter when their careers were threatened


would could be charitable and believe that they all realised they'd made a terrible mistake signing that. maybe not actually read it and until the whips came calling. retracting is genuine not just to save their own skin.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Feb 24, 2022)

billy_bob said:


> Imagine that - what kind of cunt wouldn't just abandon a principled anti-war stance when a war starts, eh?


The Labour MPs have taken back their signatures now, and it’s fine, they can be anti-war, but why have a pop at NATO today when Putins tanks are rolling in?.


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 24, 2022)

Richard Burgon was a very, very good ally for families) in fighting for justice in the coronial system. Why does he have be such a wally on matters geo-political.


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 24, 2022)

Cerv said:


> would could be charitable and believe that they all realised they'd made a terrible mistake signing that. maybe not actually read it and until the whips came calling. retracting is genuine not just to save their own skin.



I’ve got a lovely wreath you can hold whilst admiring that nice mural over there


----------



## Serge Forward (Feb 24, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> I think we all know what you'd have said about any labour or independent labour politician who'd refused to vote war credits in 1914


My bet is on sleaterkinney handing out white feathers ten to the dozen.


----------



## Rob Ray (Feb 24, 2022)

sleaterkinney said:


> The Labour MPs have taken back their signatures now, and it’s fine, they can be anti-war, but why have a pop at NATO today when Putins tanks are rolling in?.


Why have a pop at people having a pop at Nato when Putin's tanks are rolling in? Do you even care at all you monster?


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 25, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> Why have a pop at people having a pop at Nato when Putin's tanks are rolling in? Do you even care at all you monster?


She's fiddling while Kiev burns


----------



## billy_bob (Feb 25, 2022)

sleaterkinney said:


> The Labour MPs have taken back their signatures now, and it’s fine, they can be anti-war, but why have a pop at NATO today when Putins tanks are rolling in?.


The fact thay these individuals have put their careers first/successfully been intimidated (take your pick) doesn't change the inherent right to remain anti-war, or the insidious right-wing populist 'against the war but for the troops' narrative of your stance.

I'm not actually 100% anti-war myself. Family of mine died in the holocaust and that fuels my feeling that some wars, if not just, do end up being necessary. But your apparent view that people who are anti-war should just pick a side is really reductive and unhelpful.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Feb 25, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> She's fiddling while Kiev burns


I’m a he.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Feb 25, 2022)

billy_bob said:


> The fact thay these individuals have put their careers first/successfully been intimidated (take your pick) doesn't change the inherent right to remain anti-war, or the insidious right-wing populist 'against the war but for the troops' narrative of your stance.
> 
> I'm not actually 100% anti-war myself. Family of mine died in the holocaust and that fuels my feeling that some wars, if not just, do end up being necessary. But your apparent view that people who are anti-war should just pick a side is really reductive and unhelpful.


 I just think having a pop at NATO and Iraq on a day like yesterday makes you look like a massive self-righteous prick.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Feb 25, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> Why have a pop at people having a pop at Nato when Putin's tanks are rolling in? Do you even care at all you monster?


Putin is using NATO as a justification for his megalomania.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 25, 2022)

sleaterkinney said:


> I’m a he.


thank you for the correction


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 25, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> he's fiddling while Kiev burns


corrected


----------



## sleaterkinney (Feb 25, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> thank you for the correction


You've actually met me as well...


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 25, 2022)

sleaterkinney said:


> Putin is using NATO as a justification for his megalomania.


no, he is using nato as a justification for his war. something rather different


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 25, 2022)

sleaterkinney said:


> You've actually met me as well...


have i? sorry to say you made no impression on me.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Feb 25, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> have i? sorry to say you made no impression on me.


I'm relieved I didn't.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 25, 2022)

sleaterkinney said:


> I'm relieved I didn't.


i will be careful to add you to the list of urbs i've met, in the 'eminently forgettable' pile

anyway, it must have been before you became a right-wing shit


----------



## belboid (Feb 25, 2022)

sleaterkinney said:


> The Labour MPs have taken back their signatures now, and it’s fine, they can be anti-war, but why have a pop at NATO today when Putins tanks are rolling in?.


They signed it several days ago


----------



## sleaterkinney (Feb 25, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> i will be careful to add you to the lost of urbs i've met, in the 'eminently forgettable' pile
> 
> anyway, it must have been before you became a right-wing shit


----------



## Dom Traynor (Feb 25, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> i will be careful to add you to the list of urbs i've met, in the 'eminently forgettable' pile
> 
> anyway, it must have been before you became a right-wing shit


She's always been a liberal cunt


----------



## sleaterkinney (Feb 25, 2022)

Dom Traynor said:


> She's always been a liberal cunt


Oh no, not the L word!.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 25, 2022)

sleaterkinney said:


> I just think having a pop at NATO and Iraq on a day like yesterday makes you look like a massive self-righteous prick.


how much democracy do we have in this country if you can't have a pop at nato?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 25, 2022)

sleaterkinney said:


> I just think having a pop at NATO and Iraq on a day like yesterday makes you look like a massive self-righteous prick.


That's like a milder version of Putin's declaration that Russians protesting against the war are committing treason. 

War has started, and you must now be on _your_ side (assigned to you according to your nationality). NATO is _our_ side. You may have criticised NATO in the past, but now it is your duty to defend it. 

I agree with the posters saying that these MPs weren't smart in what they did. In fact, they played right into Starmer's hands. But that's not the same as saying that somehow it is wrong in principle to criticise right now.


----------



## killer b (Feb 25, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Here’s the Young Labour statement. The SCG MPs could have signed this:



it seems not.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 25, 2022)

killer b said:


> it seems not.



the modern version of seizing control of tv and radio stations


----------



## PR1Berske (Feb 25, 2022)

killer b said:


> it seems not.



I have to smile at the tone switching from youth to parent so jarringly!


----------



## Artaxerxes (Feb 25, 2022)

killer b said:


> it seems not.




They did the NATO aggression thing.


----------



## billy_bob (Feb 25, 2022)

Nice ambiguous construction, 'we are especially concerned to see'. Could mean 'we are really worried that this is happening' or 'it's really important to us that this happens'. Plausible deniability?


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Feb 25, 2022)

Starmerite revisionism is the worst.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 25, 2022)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Starmerite revisionism is the worst.


Shammerism


----------



## hitmouse (Feb 25, 2022)

No conference for Young Labour either:








						Keir Starmer slashes Young Labour funds and axes conference in clash with Left
					

A Labour source claimed the youth wing has become a haven for "factional rubbish" after Nato row burst into the open, meanwhile Momentum lashed out at the leader for "silencing" activists




					www.mirror.co.uk
				




Mind you, can't imagine there's that many young people left?


----------



## two sheds (Feb 25, 2022)

He won't mind if Unite follows his example and cuts funding, then.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Feb 25, 2022)

The inevitable outcome of the racist, jingoist rhetoric of the Starmer clique


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Feb 25, 2022)

It's the Starmer clique who are the Putin apologists, like his unofficial adviser Mandelson (Putin and the Prince of Darkness) and his role model Blair (Blair Says Forget The People Of Ukraine, Let's Side With Putin And Fight Radical Islam)


----------



## hitmouse (Feb 25, 2022)

Jeff Robinson said:


> It's the Starmer clique who are the Putin apologists, like his unofficial adviser Mandelson (Putin and the Prince of Darkness) and his role model Blair (Blair Says Forget The People Of Ukraine, Let's Side With Putin And Fight Radical Islam)


Oh, that about Mandelson is genuinely something I didn't know about, thanks for that information. I mean, it's not like I thought he was a top bloke before this and my rosy-eyed view of him has now been shaken, but good to know all the same.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 25, 2022)

Jeff Robinson said:


> It's the Starmer clique who are the Putin apologists, like his unofficial adviser Mandelson (Putin and the Prince of Darkness) and his role model Blair (Blair Says Forget The People Of Ukraine, Let's Side With Putin And Fight Radical Islam)


The shammerites


----------



## hitmouse (Feb 26, 2022)

Dunno which thread to put this on but might as well go here - sometimes I wonder if people are too harsh on Stop the War, but then I see shit like this, from one of their National Officers:


_Let's Have A War Coalition_


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 26, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> Dunno which thread to put this on but might as well go here - sometimes I wonder if people are too harsh on Stop the War, but then I see shit like this, from one of their National Officers:
> 
> 
> _Let's Have A War Coalition_



fuck me that's awful politics and sheer windbaggery


----------



## Dystopiary (Feb 26, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> Dunno which thread to put this on but might as well go here - sometimes I wonder if people are too harsh on Stop the War, but then I see shit like this, from one of their National Officers:
> 
> 
> _Let's Have A War Coalition_



Just been looking at her twitter, and ffs. She's "Stop the War" except for the one that's actually happening in Ukraine, no solidarity with the those people who are actually being subjected to war right now that she blames entirely on NATO.*

There's such a bizarre overlap of "anti-war" and tankie. 



*Fuck NATO, obvs.


----------



## Dom Traynor (Feb 26, 2022)

Is she CPB? I'm sure I know her from somewhere... Seems like a Beelyite.


----------



## hitmouse (Feb 26, 2022)

Dom Traynor said:


> Is she CPB? I'm sure I know her from somewhere... Seems like a Beelyite.


Fairly sure she's Socialist Action, that super secret trot sect who used to knock about with Ken Livingstone?


----------



## Dom Traynor (Feb 27, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> Fairly sure she's Socialist Action, that super secret trot sect who used to knock about with Ken Livingstone?


Yes. I know one of them I've had a discussion with her on his Facebook wall. That would make sense.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Feb 28, 2022)

Great boss man J Corbyn smashes revisionist Starmer clique


----------



## magneze (Feb 28, 2022)




----------



## splonkydoo (Feb 28, 2022)

Autocratic Shammerism upping the ante

https://www.theguardian.com/world/l...08dd0c86717aed#block-621d1b5b8f08dd0c86717aed


----------



## PR1Berske (Feb 28, 2022)

splonkydoo said:


> Autocratic Shammerism upping the ante
> 
> Russia-Ukraine war latest news: Turkey will limit Russian warship access to Black Sea, says Erdoğan – live


Just about to post this.


----------



## splonkydoo (Feb 28, 2022)

PR1Berske said:


> Just about to post this.




Centrist dad twitter is delighted it seems.


----------



## billy_bob (Mar 1, 2022)

Sheesh. That sounds a whole lot like castigating people for _thinking errors_ - not as centrist a position as centrist dad seems to think.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Mar 1, 2022)

Renegade revisionist and imperialist warmonger Starmer continues to posture


----------



## magneze (Mar 2, 2022)

Unbelievable.


----------



## killer b (Mar 2, 2022)

magneze said:


> Unbelievable.


Yeah.


----------



## agricola (Mar 2, 2022)

The strange thing I find in all this flag-waving is that they’ve not mentioned the defence cuts, which they opposed at the time and which were based (see Johnson’s comments about there not going to be a land war in Europe a few months before a land war in Europe) on conclusions now obviously destroyed by events.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 2, 2022)

killer b said:


> Yeah.
> 
> View attachment 312471


Is he small or far away?


----------



## Badgers (Mar 2, 2022)

killer b said:


> These are more or less the exact kind of actions that Corbyn should have been taking against the Labour right when he had the chance tbf


Really?

He was busy with a poisonous media and a disgraced party of liars.


----------



## killer b (Mar 2, 2022)

Badgers said:


> He was busy with a poisonous media and a disgraced party of liars.


He was also busy with internal attacks within the party if you'll recall. Attempting to accommodate and mollify them proved to be a mistake, as evidenced by... everything.


----------



## killer b (Mar 2, 2022)

And I know I've said this before, but any left politician with a sniff at power will face the most ferocious pushback from the disgraced party of liars and the poisonous media, and the liberal centrists. No point in whining about it, you might as well whine about the rain in Manchester. Dealing with that pushback effectively is the only way to win isn't it?


----------



## two sheds (Mar 2, 2022)

have to agree - needed to be as ruthless as starmer is being now


----------



## PR1Berske (Mar 2, 2022)




----------



## Badgers (Mar 2, 2022)

killer b said:


> He was also busy with internal attacks within the party if you'll recall. Attempting to accommodate and mollify them proved to be a mistake, as evidenced by... everything.


So..

Starmer is a better man than Corbyn?

Starmer will deliver a fairer and more humane country?


----------



## Badgers (Mar 2, 2022)

killer b said:


> He was also busy with internal attacks within the party if you'll recall. Attempting to accommodate and mollify them proved to be a mistake, as evidenced by... everything.


So?


----------



## killer b (Mar 2, 2022)

Badgers said:


> So..
> 
> Starmer is a better man than Corbyn?
> 
> Starmer will deliver a fairer and more humane country?


you seem to be replying to a different post to the one you've quoted.


----------



## PR1Berske (Mar 3, 2022)

> Some leftwing Labour MPs believe Starmer is seeking a pretext to suspend them from the party, and are keen not to hand him any opportunity to do so. McDonnell said it was important for socialists to “stay on the pitch for as long as it takes”.
> 
> McDonnell and Abbott were among 11 Labour backbenchers who yielded to pressure from the party’s chief whip last week and withdrew their names from a Stop the War motion urging Nato to “call a halt to its eastward expansion” and accusing the UK government of “sabre-rattling” over Ukraine.
> 
> ...











						John McDonnell and Diane Abbott pull out of Stop the War rally
					

Labour leftwingers react to pressure from Keir Starmer to avoid blaming Nato for Russian aggression in Ukraine




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Mar 3, 2022)

Pure iron.


----------



## PR1Berske (Mar 5, 2022)




----------



## two sheds (Mar 5, 2022)

"We can win elections, and do nothing in particular because we've got no policies, or we can pursue policies which are actually popular to most of the people in the country. But make no mistake, .... "


----------



## hitmouse (Mar 11, 2022)

PR1Berske said:


>



So does that quote mean that he's letting Corbyn back in, or is Corbz the wrong kind of impurity?

Anyway, came here to post this:








						Unite could break historic link with Labour as rift with Keir Starmer deepens
					

New general secretary Sharon Graham has not met with Labour leader or any of his top team in months - but the party says the two leaders are in touch




					www.mirror.co.uk
				




Can't see it mentioned in the article, but apparently Coventry council have just suspended a Unite steward, which doesn't seem likely to calm things down:








						Coventry council accused of ‘needlessly’ escalating bin dispute as leader George Duggins suspends a Unite shop steward on bogus charges
					

…




					www.unitetheunion.org


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 11, 2022)

PR1Berske said:


>



he can't do either


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Mar 11, 2022)

Compare this clarity and passion to the fuckwitted revisionist rubbish of the Starmer renegade clique!


----------



## teqniq (Mar 11, 2022)

Great speech but the account owner has me blocked on Twitter, mainly because she is an Assadist and she realised that I knew this.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 11, 2022)




----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 11, 2022)

The39thStep said:


>






If looks could kill the labour party would be looking for a new leader


----------



## rekil (Mar 11, 2022)

teqniq said:


> Great speech but the account owner has me blocked on Twitter, mainly because she is an Assadist and she realised that I knew this.



It probably isn't a great speech but I'm not going to bother checking because Daly is an incorrigible loon and her time is well past up. 




			
				Dail 2018 said:
			
		

> RBB: It was very annoying to hear Deputy Micheál Martin saying, obviously with a sideswipe at the left, that people were not jumping up and down about the Russians in Syria. Some of us were. I did not notice Deputy Martin on the marches to the Russian embassy. We were there.
> Mick Wallace: We were not.
> Clare Daly: We were not.
> RBB: Deputies Wallace and Daly were not. That was their choice. We disagree.
> Mick Wallace: And we will not be.



And yes that twitter person all the crankies like is pure poison.


----------



## splonkydoo (Mar 12, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> he can't do either



But can his haircut?


----------



## Dom Traynor (Mar 12, 2022)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Compare this clarity and passion to the fuckwitted revisionist rubbish of the Starmer renegade clique!



Clare Daly and Mick Wallace have gone full Assadist/Putinist Red Brown loons now.


----------



## PR1Berske (Mar 13, 2022)

Dan Hodges having a normal one.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Mar 14, 2022)

Dom Traynor said:


> Clare Daly and Mick Wallace have gone full Assadist/Putinist Red Brown loons now.



That's a shame. I hadn't heard of them before.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Mar 14, 2022)

The39thStep said:


>




Compare that revisionist loser Starmer with the great boss man J Corbyn, who brought joy wherever he went:


----------



## PR1Berske (Mar 14, 2022)




----------



## DaveCinzano (Mar 14, 2022)

Only took a war 🤷


----------



## two sheds (Mar 14, 2022)

and him actually doing nothing


----------



## splonkydoo (Mar 14, 2022)

Jeff Robinson said:


> That's a shame. I hadn't heard of them before.


yet still, this is spot on


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Mar 14, 2022)

two sheds said:


> and him actually doing nothing



forensically doing nothing, surely?


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Mar 23, 2022)

Revisionist humour in action:


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Mar 28, 2022)

I’m no fan of the extremely dodgy AWL, and I’ve never heard of the other two, but on a general point it’s remarkable the speed and extent to which the ‘left’ has been routed in the Labour Party.

I’d argue that the lesson is obvious. But for those committed to looking the other way from the objective reality where is the campaign and organised resistance to this? How has the Corbyn effect dissolved so quickly? Yes, the right of the party has been more ruthless but that alone can’t explain the rout alone surely?


----------



## hitmouse (Mar 28, 2022)

I sort of thought they were already banned? Looking it up, four people were definitely suspended in 2015 for AWL crimes, did they end up being let back in or what?


----------



## srb7677 (Mar 28, 2022)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Revisionist humour in action:



That's so utterly cringeworthy. If she ever has to rely on her stand up routine to make a living, she'll soon be relying on the nearest food bank.


----------



## srb7677 (Mar 28, 2022)

keybored said:


> Do we have a noun for his disciples yet (a la "blairite", "corbynista" etc.)? Heard one gushing on the Today programme this morning.


I think "deluded twats" will suffice until something better comes along.


----------



## belboid (Mar 28, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> I sort of thought they were already banned? Looking it up, four people were definitely suspended in 2015 for AWL crimes, did they end up being let back in or what?


They were mere individuals, the organisation was never specifically banned.  

Left Labour Alliance & SLN are both splits from momentum, the latter particularly since Corbyns defeat.  They used to be known as the LIE Network (Labour in Exile) - Tony greenstein and a couple of cpgb gobshites.  The LLA ‘leader’ was expelled last week for supporting LAW - even tho he doesn’t.


----------



## steeplejack (Mar 29, 2022)

Keir Starmer can't see a political cow-pat without stepping in it:



But yeah, Corbyn is too pro-Russian / the problem, apparently.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Mar 29, 2022)

steeplejack said:


> Keir Starmer can't see a political cow-pat without stepping in it:
> 
> 
> 
> But yeah, Corbyn is too pro-Russian / the problem, apparently.



But he's Russian. Son of a KGB guy. He can't be trusted.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Mar 29, 2022)

Generic bland congratulatory template statement #4 to media figure.

Dull.


----------



## ska invita (Mar 29, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Yes, the right of the party has been more ruthless but that alone can’t explain the rout alone surely?


What explanation is on your mind specifically?
I can think of a few things - a perfect storm of shit even - but wondering if theres something particularly at the front of your mind?


----------



## Chilli.s (Mar 29, 2022)

He has zero chance of being PM so doesnt matter what he does


----------



## killer b (Mar 29, 2022)

Chilli.s said:


> He has zero chance of being PM


No fan of Starmer, but this isn't really true is it? he had a much better chance of being PM than almost anyone else in the country.


----------



## emanymton (Mar 29, 2022)

killer b said:


> No fan of Starmer, but this isn't really true is it? he had a much better chance of being PM than almost anyone else in the country.


Yet almost anyone else on the country could do a better job of it.


----------



## killer b (Mar 29, 2022)

Dunno about that, I reckon it's probably a pretty tricky job. I'd be fucking shit at it. 

Look at the evidence before us: Starmer has completely crushed his internal rivals in the Labour Party, and they're consistently ahead of the government in the polls, including now on key issues where they generally struggle like the economy. He's ahead of the tory leader on the 'who would be best prime minister' poll, something Ed Miliband and Corbyn never managed. He's fucked up loads of times too, but it's basically impossible to not fuck up loads as a top tier national politician. 

As far as achieving his ends are concerned - consolidation of party control for his faction, building support in demographics that Labour have struggled with over the last decade with a view to building an electoral coalition to scrape a win at the next general election - he's doing alright, and very well by some metrics. I don't like or agree with the political direction he's chosen to achieve these ends, but I'm not going to mistake that dislike for incisive analysis of his chances at the next election. 

Like it or not, he has proved to be reasonably competent at leader of the Labour Party so far. He'd probably be reasonably competent as Prime Minister too, and there's a very reasonable chance he'll get a go. I won't like what he does when he's there, mind.


----------



## PR1Berske (Mar 29, 2022)

PR1Berske said:


> I've had this bookmarked for years:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Rob Ray (Mar 29, 2022)

Jfc how many years has it been since Repeat-Ed and his "get round the table" shtick? Identical in cadence and intent.


----------



## Sue (Mar 29, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> Jfc how many years has it been since Repeat-Ed and his "get round the table" shtick? Identical in cadence and intent.


Why change a winning formula though?

Oh.


----------



## ska invita (Mar 29, 2022)

PR1Berske said:


>



with certain unions threatening taking away funding i can imagine them yet overplaying these shit stained cards


----------



## killer b (Mar 30, 2022)

Sue said:


> Why change a winning formula though?
> 
> Oh.


it's a winning formula for the scab press tbf


----------



## Knotted (Mar 30, 2022)

It's now hard to see either Starmer or Johnson going before the next election and odds on that Labour will form a minority government IMO. It seems that Starmer's biggest weakness is in campaigning and getting the vote out, which to be fair is crucial. But at the same time the Tories are surely not going to recover from the cost of living crisis even if they can brave partygate etc. So Starmer next PM I recon. Do I put my money where my mouth is?


----------



## ska invita (Mar 30, 2022)

Knotted said:


> It's now hard to see either Starmer or Johnson going before the next election and odds on that Labour will form a minority government IMO. It seems that Starmer's biggest weakness is in campaigning and getting the vote out, which to be fair is crucial. But at the same time the Tories are surely not going to recover from the cost of living crisis even if they can brave partygate etc. So Starmer next PM I recon. Do I put my money where my mouth is?


yeah but when the labour campaign is to the right of the Torys on tax and spend more on cops and army its not exactly a vote winner re cost of living


----------



## Knotted (Mar 30, 2022)

ska invita said:


> yeah but when the labour campaign is to the right of the Torys on tax and spend more on cops and army its not exactly a vote winner re cost of living



Nobody knows what Labour's positions are and they look like they are going to keep it that way. I think it will probably work. Technocratic centrism is a hard sell in this period, but I think the Tories are going to have an even harder sell this time.


----------



## Serene (Mar 30, 2022)

Starmer is the Human Weather Vane.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 30, 2022)

Knotted said:


> It's now hard to see either Starmer or Johnson going before the next election and odds on that Labour will form a minority government IMO. It seems that Starmer's biggest weakness is in campaigning and getting the vote out, which to be fair is crucial. But at the same time the Tories are surely not going to recover from the cost of living crisis even if they can brave partygate etc. So Starmer next PM I recon. Do I put my money where my mouth is?


Do you feel lucky, punk?


----------



## ska invita (Mar 30, 2022)

Knotted said:


> Nobody knows what Labour's positions are and they look like they are going to keep it that way. I think it will probably work. Technocratic centrism is a hard sell in this period, but I think the Tories are going to have an even harder sell this time.


Then again there is the theory that people en masse don't really care about policy detail, they care about the 'character' of the leader, and at best the odd headline policy . I can still see Johnson winning, though it also depends how smart their campaign is post-Cummings. 
 it'll be a depressing outcome either way


----------



## Knotted (Mar 30, 2022)

ska invita said:


> Then again there is the theory that people en masse don't really care about policy detail, they care about the 'character' of the leader, and at best the odd headline policy . I can still see Johnson winning, though it also depends how smart their campaign is post-Cummings.
> it'll be a depressing outcome either way



Agree on the last.

I'm thinking of it this way. Both main parties have a more volatile voter base than they used to have. Labour more than the Tories, but Tory voting intentions can still drop really quite low - see the 2019 Euro elections and their immediate aftermath for example. So it's a question of getting the Tory vote out or at least a question of getting the anti-Labour vote out. Starmer's good at not firming up the Tory vote, and the economic pain Tory voters are feeling is likely to drive them away from the polling stations even if it doesn't drive them to vote Labour. By contrast Johnson's failing government might firm up a flagging Labour base. So my Casandra-ism is that we'll see a one term Labour government maybe 2024-9. One term, because Starmer's not reversing Labour's long term decline.

But I don't think Starmer will win because of his character. Because he doesn't have one.


----------



## Leighsw2 (Mar 30, 2022)

Say what you like about him (and I see some on this thread are), he absolutely exudes a "Kinnock c.1988" energy about him. And his Shadow Cabinet. Reeves refusing to answer questions about industrial action could be any Labour front-bencher during the miners' strike and Streeting today on trans (women have vaginas apparently!) has toxic echoes of the twistings and turnings over Section 28. Christ, we even have a good old fashioned witch-hunt against (the rapidly falling) membership. More proscriptions? How very 80s!

Time passes, the country moves on, but Labour just go round and round in ever diminishing circles.


----------



## Leighsw2 (Mar 30, 2022)

Knotted said:


> Nobody knows what Labour's positions are and they look like they are going to keep it that way. I think it will probably work. Technocratic centrism is a hard sell in this period, but I think the Tories are going to have an even harder sell this time.


There were many people who thought the Tories couldn't win in 1992 - they'd been in office for 13 years and the country was mired in the second worst recession since the War. Thousands were losing their homes in the negative equity crash.

But we all know what happened next.


----------



## Leighsw2 (Mar 30, 2022)

Final point from me - Starmer has had the most compliant, sympathetic and supportive press and media coverage of any Labour Leader since Blair in 1994. That will all change about 12 weeks out from a General Election (more echoes of 1992). Then we will see what happens. Personally, I think it couldn't happen to a nicer chap!


----------



## Knotted (Mar 30, 2022)

Leighsw2 said:


> Final point from me - Starmer has had the most compliant, sympathetic and supportive press and media coverage of any Labour Leader since Blair in 1994. That will all change about 12 weeks out from a General Election (more echoes of 1992). Then we will see what happens. Personally, I think it couldn't happen to a nicer chap!



I don't think there's much of an attack angle on Starmer. They're trying culture war stuff atm, but the thing is that the Tories are _talking_ about levelling up, so rhetorically they're on the same page and there isn't a economic angle to attack Starmer with and I think the culture war is all they've got. That sort of thing won't firm up the Tory base, because 1) it ultimately doesn't affect them like the economy affects their wallet and 2) they think the Tories are too woke as well anyway.


----------



## Leighsw2 (Mar 30, 2022)

I think you'll find the 'shifty London lawyer with some sort of connection to Jimmy Savile' angle has a lot of mileage in it. And have you heard his voice? Also, of course, he is Mr Remain as the prime architect of Labour's suicide referendum policy in 2019, I doubt the Tory tabloids have forgotten that.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 30, 2022)

Leighsw2 said:


> There were many people who thought the Tories couldn't win in 1992 - they'd been in office for 13 years and the country was mired in the second worst recession since the War. Thousands were losing their homes in the negative equity crash.
> 
> But we all know what happened next.


Strangely the poll tax is missing from your post. Which had a far greater effect on vastly more people than the negative equity did.


----------



## Leighsw2 (Mar 30, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> Strangely the poll tax is missing from your post. Which had a far greater effect on vastly more people than the negative equity did.


Indeed it did. Labour still lost in 1992!


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 30, 2022)

Leighsw2 said:


> Indeed it did. Labour still lost in 1992!


Leaving labour's advice to pay the poll tax until they entered government and abolished it in tatters


----------



## Leighsw2 (Mar 30, 2022)

The stuff about the Poll Tax is a useful reminder about how open the goal was for Labour in 1992 and therefore how bad the miss. And yet it was spun (by Mandelson et al) as Labour being 'too left wing' and paved the way for 'New Labour'. This is the template the Labour Right are working to now for 2024.


----------



## Serene (Mar 31, 2022)

Im sure that Starmer thinks the working class all wear cloth caps and smell. Im sure he wants to move in with Brexit voters. I heard that he is requiring, soon, that all Labour party members wear at least one item of Union Jack clothing and that they make regular donations to the Parachute regiment.


----------



## Jeremiah18.17 (Mar 31, 2022)

The Tories are just going to be culture war, culture war, culture war until the next election aren’t they? And experience tells us that Labour will play “me too”, or at best “they’ve got a point but we wouldn’t go as far” in response, aren’t they - alienating more of the youth and socially liberal vote to (probably unsuccessfully) chase the blue labour/red wall retired vote that the culture war strategy targets. 2016 all over again… Still, cost of living crisis might get so severe as to nullify culture war, but wouldn’t bank on it…


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 31, 2022)

Serene said:


> Im sure that Starmer thinks the working class all wear cloth caps and smell. Im sure he wants to move in with Brexit voters. I heard that he is requiring, soon, that all Labour party members wear at least one item of Union Jack clothing and that they make regular donations to the Parachute regiment.


Sales of union jack underwear are rising in the stores along victoria street


----------



## Rimbaud (Mar 31, 2022)

Knotted said:


> It's now hard to see either Starmer or Johnson going before the next election and odds on that Labour will form a minority government IMO. It seems that Starmer's biggest weakness is in campaigning and getting the vote out, which to be fair is crucial. But at the same time the Tories are surely not going to recover from the cost of living crisis even if they can brave partygate etc. So Starmer next PM I recon. Do I put my money where my mouth is?



I could see a Labour-led coalition. Labour will win a few seats back from the Tories and Lib Dems will make gains in Tory shires, preventing a Tory majority, however SNP, Plaid, Lib Dems and Greens will make a Labour majority impossible. Labour will probably try to cobble together a coalition with the Lib Dems and Greens.


----------



## Serene (Mar 31, 2022)

Jeremiah18.17 said:


> The Tories are just going to be culture war, culture war, culture war until the next election aren’t they?


Thats an interesting thought. Thank you. I shall be pondering that with my morning Coffee.


----------



## PR1Berske (Mar 31, 2022)

Rimbaud said:


> I could see a Labour-led coalition. Labour will win a few seats back from the Tories and Lib Dems will make gains in Tory shires, preventing a Tory majority, however SNP, Plaid, Lib Dems and Greens will make a Labour majority impossible. Labour will probably try to cobble together a coalition with the Lib Dems and Greens.


It'll take a lot of persuasion to get many Labour MPs to agree with a coalition in general terms never mind one with the LibDems. In some CLPs members would rather cross the street than have polite conversation with a LD!


----------



## Serene (Apr 1, 2022)

Starmer looks like an Auton from Dr.Who, with also a low voice droning on like there has been a death in the family. Theres a blank countenance like a cross between a window shops dummy, and an Alpaca with a side parting.


----------



## andysays (Apr 2, 2022)

Not sure to what extent Starmer is directly involved or responsible, but this is a shit situation which doesn't reflect well on him or his leadership.

Labour staff 'gagged' over sexual harassment claims​


----------



## teqniq (Apr 7, 2022)

Even though it was voted at conference in 2021 that Israel is an apartheid state, he comes out with this:


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Apr 7, 2022)

teqniq said:


> Even though it was voted at conference in 2021 that Israel is an apartheid state, he comes out with this:



What a fucking cunt.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Apr 7, 2022)

Revisionist Starmer less favoured and more unfavoured than Marxist-Lentilist boss man J Corbyn:


----------



## DaveCinzano (Apr 7, 2022)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Revisionist Starmer less favoured and more unfavoured than Marxist-Lentilist boss man J Corbyn:



Clearly playing a really, _really_ long game of four dimensional chess


----------



## brogdale (Apr 7, 2022)

Really difficult to imagine what 29% of respondents found to regard as favourable.


----------



## teqniq (Apr 9, 2022)

Re: the Jewish Chronicle interview and Starmer's position, this is pretty much nail on the head for me:









						The Human Rights Lawyer Against the Law
					

Keir Starmer's refusal to recognise Amnesty International's findings about Israeli apartheid isn't just a betrayal of Palestinians – it shows that his appreciation for human rights extends only as far as it benefits his career.




					tribunemag.co.uk


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Apr 12, 2022)

Revisionist clique ramp up bourgeois law and order rhetoric


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Apr 12, 2022)

and quoting the fucking s*n

:facepaw:


----------



## Calamity1971 (Apr 12, 2022)

Puddy_Tat said:


> and quoting the fucking s*n
> 
> :facepaw:


----------



## Whagwan (Apr 12, 2022)

They sent Debbonaire out to do the media on this.  Quite why she'd be so keen to gift Bristol West to Denyer is beyond me...


----------



## lazythursday (Apr 12, 2022)

Miliband must be struggling with his conscience, surely?


----------



## ska invita (Apr 12, 2022)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Revisionist clique ramp up bourgeois law and order rhetoric



aside from the utter shamelessness of it all - facepaw indeed! - its also a classic non-policy, barely counts as a tweak. There are already restorative justice boards -  whatever the fuck these new "victim payback boards" are its not much + its terrible tabloid language to use regarding crime - payback ffs


----------



## magneze (Apr 12, 2022)

"Shelves of winning policies" apparently? Like the non-existant non-dom one perhaps? Or ... err ... ? 








						Labour has shelves of winning policies. Now the party must get people to listen | Polly Toynbee
					

As Johnson’s cabinet flounders, Starmer’s team has some brilliant ideas to improve this country. But voters also want a clear vision, says Guardian columnist Polly Toynbee




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Chilli.s (Apr 12, 2022)

Fuck all policies and lots of hot air


----------



## JimW (Apr 12, 2022)

Cupboards bursting with cunning plans. Sacks full of shit.


----------



## Chilli.s (Apr 12, 2022)

Kier will give every household a magic bean so that they can grow a money tree thus restoring greatness to all and proving himself the saviour of the labour party


----------



## DaveCinzano (Apr 12, 2022)

ska invita said:


> aside from the utter shamelessness of it all - facepaw indeed! - its also a classic non-policy, barely counts as a tweak. There are already restorative justice boards -  whatever the fuck these new "victim payback boards" are its not much + its terrible tabloid language to use regarding crime - payback ffs


It'll be loyalty cards and redermable e-vouchers next


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 12, 2022)




----------



## Serene (Apr 12, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> View attachment 318240


He certainly has the countenance of an Android.


----------



## steeplejack (Apr 12, 2022)

DaveCinzano said:


> It'll be loyalty cards and redermable e-vouchers next



Council Tax Bill per annum : £2,442

New Labour Shanner Card holders: £2, 197.80


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 12, 2022)

Serene said:


> He certainly has the countenance of an Android.


----------



## splonkydoo (Apr 12, 2022)

Serene said:


> He certainly has the countenance of an Android.


'These aren't the policies you' re looking for, move along'


----------



## AnnO'Neemus (Apr 12, 2022)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Revisionist humour in action:



About as funny as Liz 'pork markets' Truss, ie not at all.


----------



## AnnO'Neemus (Apr 12, 2022)

PR1Berske said:


>



Honestly, what is the point of Labour, if it's indistinguishable from the Tories?

I understand their argument is not to give the game away about what their policies will or won't be at the next general election. 

The problem with adopting that stance is that they'll have spent years, failing to stand up for working class people, failing to stand up for benefits claimants (many of whom actually working, so the solution isn't 'get on your bike, and get a job'), failing to stand up for disabled people, the elderly and children living in dire poverty, and when they want to start pushing glossy leaflets through letterboxes in the run up to the next GE, no one's going to believe their election pledges and policy promises, because it will come across as insincere and opportunist, and also who will they get to do all that leafleting and door-stepping after purging and alienating so many lefties.

I suspect that many who turned to the Tories over the last couple of general elections might now be deterred from supporting them again due to the cost of living crisis and Brexit fall-out and mishandling of the pandemic/giving £billions in contracts to their cronies.

But Labour isn't giving people anything to vote _for_. So I suspect many will abstain and there will be a low turnout. 

Starmer and the rest of the centrist dads are taking the working class and poor people's votes for granted again, they seemingly haven't learned from the Red Wall turning blue. What are they hoping to achieve by prevaricating and not only failing to stand up for some of society's most impoverished and vulnerable people, but also failing to stand up for public sector workers like social workers, nurses and teachers, etc?

Many of them must be wondering: 'If Labour won't stand up for us, why should we stand up and turn out for and vote for them?'


----------



## teqniq (Apr 12, 2022)

AnnO'Neemus said:


> Honestly, what is the point of Labour, if it's indistinguishable from the Tories?
> 
> I understand their argument is not to give the game away about what their policies will or won't be at the next general election.
> 
> ...


Frankly I don't think the right wing of the Labour party (for it is them driving what passes for policy at the moment) give a flying fuck about poor. disadvantaged people.


----------



## Calamity1971 (Apr 12, 2022)

teqniq said:


> Frankly I don't think the right wing of the Labour party (for it is them driving what passes for policy at the moment) give a flying fuck about poor. disadvantaged people.


Reeves certainly doesn't give a flying fuck. She needs to trot over to the other side of the floor with kieth.


----------



## hitmouse (Apr 12, 2022)

magneze said:


> "Shelves of winning policies" apparently? Like the non-existant non-dom one perhaps? Or ... err ... ?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Banning environmental protests, innit.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Apr 12, 2022)

Whagwan said:


> They sent Debbonaire out to do the media on this.


Poor Glen


----------



## DaveCinzano (Apr 12, 2022)

splonkydoo said:


> 'These aren't the policies you' re looking for, move along'




Certainly not Thatcher Death Revels that's for sure 😠


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Apr 19, 2022)

from teh tweeter


----------



## mx wcfc (Apr 20, 2022)

I might be being a bit idealist about the US VP, but can you imagine any UK Labour politician talking like this?


----------



## oryx (Apr 20, 2022)

mx wcfc said:


> I might be being a bit idealist about the US VP, but can you imagine any UK Labour politician talking like this?



Some of those on the left, yes.

Those in charge - resounding no.


----------



## Serge Forward (Apr 21, 2022)

Very few now. The general theme is to stick the boot in the unions.


----------



## rekil (Apr 26, 2022)

Serge Forward said:


> Very few now. The general theme is to stick the boot in the unions.



Can someone contact him (keir starmer) on the twitter machine and get him to denounce the strike in Emmerdale and demonisation of wealth creator Kim Tate? #activism


----------



## Whagwan (Apr 28, 2022)

Great work Starmer.


----------



## magneze (Apr 28, 2022)

ffs


----------



## maomao (Apr 28, 2022)

I'm actually at the point where I prefer Boris tbh. And please don't think for a second that I _like_ Boris but better the devil you know than this odious backstabbing pointless shitstain.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 28, 2022)

maomao said:


> I'm actually at the point where I prefer Boris tbh. And please don't think for a second that I _like_ Boris but better the devil you know than this odious backstabbing pointless shitstain.



The fact Starmer is the best thing we have to look forward to is somehow worse than knowing we're already ruled by Johnson IMO. Nothing evil this lot has done will be undone, because Starmer supports all of it, and we'll most likely get even more authoritarian bullshit to go with ongoing economic decline, endless privatisation and a general slide toward arbitrary depths of cruelty, cynicism and inequality.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 29, 2022)

This is the best account yet of Starmer’s role as a Shadow Brexit Secretary and his role in blocking a serious and popular approach by Corbyn (aided by the piss weak panicking McDonnell it must be said). His description of a plan to put forward a serious programme around Brexit highluhting State Aid, investment and job as 'outrageous' is instructive. Corbyn should have sacked him (and Thornberry and the other Planet Remain dwellers):









						Tell us who you really are, Keir Starmer
					

The most detailed study of the Labour leader so far charts his role in the Brexit wars and in the downfall of Corbynism.




					www.newstatesman.com


----------



## steveo87 (Apr 29, 2022)

MEGS!!!


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 29, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> This is the best account yet of Starmer’s role as a Shadow Brexit Secretary and his role in blocking a serious and popular approach by Corbyn (aided by the piss weak panicking McDonnell it must be said). His description of a plan to put forward a serious programme around Brexit highluhting State Aid, investment and job as 'outrageous' is instructive. Corbyn should have sacked him (and Thornberry and the other Planet Remain dwellers):
> 
> 
> 
> ...


the paint is peeling off the wall and revealing starmer actually shammer.


----------



## ska invita (Apr 29, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> This is the best account of Starmer’s role as a Shadow Brexit Secretary and his role in blocking a serious and popular approach by Corbyn (aided by the piss weak panicking McDonnell it must be said):
> 
> 
> 
> ...


yes hearing Len McCluskey interview he also said McDonnel was key in the 2nd Ref policy change...and Diane Abbott also. TBF they were "respecting conference democracy" which is where the pressure really came from
( i havent read the article you've just posted yet, paywall etc)


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 29, 2022)

ska invita said:


> yes hearing Len McCluskey interview he also said McDonnel was key in the 2nd Ref policy change...and Diane Abbott also. TBF they were "respecting conference democracy" which is where the pressure really came from
> ( i havent read the article you've just posted yet, paywall etc)


paywall? i saw no paywall


----------



## ska invita (Apr 29, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> paywall? i saw no paywall


3 free articles and then no more...i could clear my cookies or whatever but not right now


----------



## teqniq (Apr 29, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> This is the best account yet of Starmer’s role as a Shadow Brexit Secretary and his role in blocking a serious and popular approach by Corbyn (aided by the piss weak panicking McDonnell it must be said). His description of a plan to put forward a serious programme around Brexit highluhting State Aid, investment and job as 'outrageous' is instructive. Corbyn should have sacked him (and Thornberry and the other Planet Remain dwellers):
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's a pretty damning article TBH, i am not surprised.

In other news Labour seem to think this will be a vote winner. Not that I am a fan of the limp-dems but _really??_ is this the best that Labour could come up with?


----------



## ska invita (Apr 29, 2022)

teqniq said:


> That's a pretty damning article TBH, i am not surprised.
> 
> In other news Labour seem to think this will be a vote winner. Not that I am a fan of the limp-dems but _really??_ is this the best that Labour could come up with?
> 
> View attachment 320543


they'll be accusing them of anti-Semitism next


----------



## Funky_monks (Apr 29, 2022)

teqniq said:


> That's a pretty damning article TBH, i am not surprised.
> 
> In other news Labour seem to think this will be a vote winner. Not that I am a fan of the limp-dems but _really??_ is this the best that Labour could come up with?
> 
> View attachment 320543


I saw that too. 

It's reasonably depressing. I honestly think that the Tories are more likely than Labour to relax drug policy, mostly because of the $$$ (mostly white) people are making in the US after cannabis decriminalisation.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 29, 2022)

ska invita said:


> yes hearing Len McCluskey interview he also said McDonnel was key in the 2nd Ref policy change...and Diane Abbott also. TBF they were "respecting conference democracy" which is where the pressure really came from
> ( i havent read the article you've just posted yet, paywall etc)



It would be ironic, if it wasn’t so infuriating, that:

1. Starmer is the author of the policy that cost Labour the ‘red wall’ and also (as we now know beyond doubt) a key player in the manoeuvring that bounced Corbyn into accepting that policy. 2. As leader Starmer now prances around deindustrialised midlands and northern towns blaming Corbyn for the loss of the ‘red wall’.

As for McDonnell he doesn’t come out of this looking good either. Apparently, he was motivated by a fear of a split in the Labour PLP and by the strength of feeling by middle class labour remainer activists.

The tradition I come from is that you stand by and argue for the politics and ideas that you believe in. Win or lose. I once thought McDonnell was the same. The ease with which he ditched 30 years of implacable opposition to the EU suggests not


----------



## ska invita (Apr 29, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> The tradition I come from is that you stand by and argue for the politics and ideas that you believe in. Win or lose. I once thought McDonnell was the same. The ease with which he ditched 30 years of implacable opposition to the EU suggests not


Its a tricky one

I'm with you on " stand by and argue for the politics and ideas that you believe in", but i also believe in the principle of strong democracy. Unfortunately Brexit was such a divisive issue Im not sure it was ever going to be possible to when over a majority of LP members with argument, where sentiment was 2 to 1 against (or near enough).

That said Corbyn and McD didn't really try to make that post-referendum case with any vigour... generally Corbyn's instincts are towards avoiding confrontation, which I sympathise with, but the project he was involved with was a war, not a co-operative society meeting, and he should've been a bit more hardline here and there. As a leader with some faithful support he should've risked that allegiance more. A hard hand to play whatever the tactic


----------



## Kaka Tim (Apr 29, 2022)

Much as I despise him - I dont think you cant hang the 2019 debacle on starmer. 
the overwhelming majority of labour mps were remain.
the overwhelming majority of labour members were remain
the majority of the unions backed remain. 
The majority of labour voters voted remain. 
There is no way labour could have pushed a more pro brexit line -  It was fucked whatever it did - and they were never going to out brexit the tories. And whoever had been leader. And it wasn't just brexit that lost them the red wall - the whole "pro terrorist"  smears  made Corbyn toxic to a lot of voters.  
Johnson and co  played a blinder by making brexit a "culture war" issue - recognising (in contrast to May) that its supporters were coming from a position of emotion and idealism rather than rational argument. So they eat into labours pro brexit voters whilst the toxifycation of Corbyn prevented too many remainer tories switching to Labour.


----------



## magneze (Apr 29, 2022)

I'm not sure they were screwed whatever they did. The "2nd ref" position was a poor fudge, but still better than the "you got it wrong, idiots" Remain position. A "we don't like it, but we'll do it better than the Tories" would have been a better position and more effective. Maybe still a loss, but substantially less IMHO. But who knows? That would have neutralized the "get Brexit done" message pretty effectively.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Apr 29, 2022)

teqniq said:


> That's a pretty damning article TBH, i am not surprised.
> 
> In other news Labour seem to think this will be a vote winner. Not that I am a fan of the limp-dems but _really??_ is this the best that Labour could come up with?
> 
> View attachment 320543


Well that does it then. I'm voting Lib Dem next week. I never realised just how much power local government had.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Apr 29, 2022)

magneze said:


> I'm not sure they were screwed whatever they did. The "2nd ref" position was a poor fudge, but still better than the "you got it wrong, idiots" Remain position. A "we don't like it, but we'll do it better than the Tories" would have been a better position and more effective. Maybe still a loss, but substantially less IMHO. But who knows? That would have neutralized the "get Brexit done" message pretty effectively.


 The "2nd ref on final deal" may have won some remainer votes whilst losing leaver ones - but  I don't think it was the clincher -  it was labour voting against the tories  (terrible) Brexit deal was what did for them. And voting for it would have been suicide as well. A nuanced, balanced position on brexit  - which was what labour was striving for - was always going to please nobody.


----------



## PR1Berske (Apr 29, 2022)

Funky_monks said:


> I saw that too.
> 
> It's reasonably depressing. I honestly think that the Tories are more likely than Labour to relax drug policy, mostly because of the $$$ (mostly white) people are making in the US after cannabis decriminalisation.


This is a thread for another place perhaps but I agree with your main point. The Tories shape-shift like no other party, even the LibDems. 

I can imagine a very British compromise : part sell-off the NHS, choose a dozen urban areas to sell weed through a private company who passes your purchase to your GP ( so at least they can claim the NHS isn't entirely private) and take it from there. "See, we offered legalised weed to a Labour Council but they refused! Only Conservative councillors are trusting you with your own choices in life...!"


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Apr 29, 2022)

Kaka Tim said:


> Much as I despise him - I dont think you cant hang the 2019 debacle on starmer.
> the overwhelming majority of labour mps were remain.
> the overwhelming majority of labour members were remain
> the majority of the unions backed remain.
> ...



Key part. The Brexit referendum, and the outcome couldn't have been more of a catastrophe for Labour. They were fucked either way


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Apr 29, 2022)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Key part. The Brexit referendum, and the outcome couldn't have been more of a catastrophe for Labour. They were fucked either way



on the other paw, and while accepting there were a whole host of other factors between 2017 and 2019, but labour went in to the 2017 election on the basis of respecting the result of the referendum, and got a swing close to 1997 (but didn't quite win)


----------



## TopCat (Apr 30, 2022)

Keir Starmer the grownup needs to rediscover the radical youth he once was | Andy Beckett
					

The Labour leader hopes his sober, moderate image will take him to No 10. But a nation in need of change demands more of him, says Guardian columnist Andy Beckett




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## two sheds (May 1, 2022)

second blairite labour promotion I've seen - really?


----------



## two sheds (May 2, 2022)

This was the other one  



I can't bring myself to watch it but I don't think they can complain about being called "Blairites" any more. Have also seen that Blair is disliked by more than 50% of British population. Goodoh.


----------



## Larry O'Hara (May 2, 2022)

Apologies if I've missed the reference, but Seymour's article was a review of the interesting book by Oliver Eagleton, 'The Starmer Project' (Verso).  Some good analysis of his CPS antics (apart from phone-hacking aspect).  A bit harsh on McDonnell, his views would be interesting. Well worth a look: far superior to the drivel from that wind-sock Owen Jones.  I have always thought Starmer scum: this book supplies chapter & verse.


----------



## nino_savatte (May 2, 2022)

Wheeling Blair out in the last week of campaigning is a real vote winner, no? 😆


----------



## steveseagull (May 6, 2022)

So the daft twat has now got himself under investigation by the police. If he is fined, I suspect he will have choice but to resign.  What an absolute mess. 

The party should then follow precedence and remove the whip.


----------



## ska invita (May 6, 2022)

steveseagull said:


> If he is fined, I suspect he will have choice but to resign.



haha i hadnt thought of  that  comedy
i cant see him resigning though no matter what


----------



## ska invita (May 6, 2022)

Larry O'Hara said:


> Apologies if I've missed the reference, but Seymour's article was a review of the interesting book by Oliver Eagleton, 'The Starmer Project' (Verso).  Some good analysis of his CPS antics (apart from phone-hacking aspect).  A bit harsh on McDonnell, his views would be interesting. Well worth a look: far superior to the drivel from that wind-sock Owen Jones.  I have always thought Starmer scum: this book supplies chapter & verse.


interview here


----------



## brogdale (May 6, 2022)

ska invita said:


> haha i hadnt thought of  that  comedy
> i cant see him resigning though no matter what


_time to move on...._


----------



## Flavour (May 6, 2022)

teqniq said:


> That's a pretty damning article TBH, i am not surprised.
> 
> In other news Labour seem to think this will be a vote winner. Not that I am a fan of the limp-dems but _really??_ is this the best that Labour could come up with?
> 
> View attachment 320543


Makes you want to vote Lib Dem if anything


----------



## weltweit (May 6, 2022)

The tin of beer Starmer was photographed drinking was a "BrewDog" ..


----------



## weltweit (May 6, 2022)

weltweit said:


> The tin of beer Starmer was photographed drinking was a "BrewDog" ..


----------



## Kaka Tim (May 6, 2022)

Police have received "significant new information" apparently. Has Angela Rayner dobbed him in? 
Fpn and he's gone. Heart of stone not to laugh.


----------



## nogojones (May 7, 2022)

Kaka Tim said:


> Police have received "significant new information" apparently. Has Angela Rayner dobbed him in?
> Fpn and he's gone. Heart of stone not to laugh.


----------



## ska invita (May 7, 2022)

nogojones said:


> View attachment 321547


forgot all about that  classic

"are you waiting to receive my limp penis?"


----------



## nogojones (May 7, 2022)

Very much "democracy manifest".


----------



## platinumsage (May 7, 2022)

Not looking good for him now:


----------



## Wolveryeti (May 7, 2022)

Korma Police, arrest this man...


----------



## Calamity1971 (May 7, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> Not looking good for him now:



No loss. What a fucking tool.


----------



## Raheem (May 7, 2022)

He's not going to resign for lying or breaching Labour party covid guidelines, though. Only if he gets fined.


----------



## pbsmooth (May 7, 2022)

This Labour party really can turn so much as a hint of victory into defeat. Dianne Abbot piping up now to keep it in the news. Tories must be laughing their cocks off.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 7, 2022)

He’s such a fucking gimp.

Come out now and say “If I am found to have breached lockdown rules and am fined I will of course resign, that is the only credible option for a leader of a political party to do.”

Filth won’t fine him, Johnson looks even more of a cunt.


----------



## ska invita (May 7, 2022)

platinumsage said:


>


----------



## DaveCinzano (May 7, 2022)

ska invita said:


> View attachment 321650


----------



## ska invita (May 7, 2022)

DaveCinzano said:


> View attachment 321653


Uncanny!
#

(Ive no idea who this guy is or what his politics are but hes in the shadow cabinet so thats a mark against him already  )


----------



## bluescreen (May 7, 2022)

pbsmooth said:


> This Labour party really can turn so much as a hint of victory into defeat. Dianne Abbot piping up now to keep it in the news. Tories must be laughing their cocks off.


Tbf she didn't exactly volunteer. She was goaded by the LBC reporter pressing her again and again with the hypothetical and she crumbled - which she should avoided. It's hard though, to duck the charges of hypocrisy. Margaret Beckett managed better in reframing the question on AnyQ.


----------



## philosophical (May 8, 2022)

Sophie Rayworth interviewing Nandy this morning, every question so far is about beergate.
Is Rayworth working for the Mail?
To be honest Nandy has absorbed it well, but the interview is a disgrace.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 8, 2022)

pbsmooth said:


> This Labour party really can turn so much as a hint of victory into defeat. Dianne Abbot piping up now to keep it in the news. Tories must be laughing their cocks off.


This has already been in the news for ages and doesn't seem to have affected shammer's party does it. We're just past the important point, the Thursday elections, and whatever comes out of this sordid little episode won't affect the party come the next elections


----------



## Smokeandsteam (May 8, 2022)

It’s doesn’t matter what the Durham police do now. The narrative has successfully been shifted from Johnson to ‘all of em were at it’. Presumably Johnson and his team will see that as ‘job done’. Also, presumably, Starmer will see the need to dial down the attacks over the Downing Street parties and focus on having nothing much to say about the cost of living crisis instead. Johnson will stagger on with the Grey report and further fines to come and the low level civil war in the Tory party will rumble on.   Meanwhile millions will be tipped further into poverty as energy and prices continue to rise and wages fall behind. Unlike the 1970’s the consequences won’t be played out as a battle between capital and organised labour (as the latter no longer exists).

Roll on a long hot summer…..


----------



## Serene (May 8, 2022)

Does anyone know the difference between Starmer and a Tory? I cant see any. I always thought he was yet another tory infiltrator of the party to keep it down. I admit to delusions in the same way all humans have delusions. Also is he using Brylcreem?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 8, 2022)

Serene said:


> Does anyone know the difference between Starmer and a Tory? I cant see any. I always thought he was yet another tory infiltrator of the party to keep it down. I admit to delusions in the same way all humans have delusions. Also is he using Brylcreem?


We've been through this several times now. You have the memory of a forgetful goldfish.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 8, 2022)

Serene said:


> I apologise, but I still cant tell the difference between Starmer and a Tory. I have little doubt he wears pin striped suits, has gold cufflinks and drives a 1970`s Jag with leather seats and a walnut dashboard.


Do you remember posting this?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 8, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> the difference is starmer sits on the opposition benches.
> 
> and he drives a 1950s jag
> 
> ...


...and this was my reply


----------



## Serene (May 8, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> Do you remember posting this?


Yes why?


----------



## Serene (May 8, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> We've been through this several times now. You have the memory of a forgetful goldfish.


If you were a discerning reader you would see that the two questions are not the same.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 8, 2022)

Serene said:


> If you were a discerning reader you would see that the two questions are not the same.


To an ultrapedant the difference may be obvious but to anyone else the differences are of no consequence


----------



## Serene (May 8, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> To an ultrapedant the difference may be obvious but to anyone else the differences are of no consequence


There are elementary differences that can be spotted by anyone.  Infiltrator  is key. Though I have done sparse research it seems he may have infiltrated his parents also, because, from his wiki today it says  His parents were Labour Party supporters, and named him after the party's first parliamentary leader, Keir Hardie . This left me baffled as the plot is really deepening. Maybe he is a Labour supporter after all? I also didnt know that In his teenage years, Starmer was active in Labour politics, and was a member of the East Surrey Young Socialists. I am eating an Apple and pondering all this.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 8, 2022)

Serene said:


> There are elementary differences that can be spotted by anyone.  Infiltrator  is key. Though I have done sparse research it seems he may have infiltrated his parents also, because, from his wiki today it says  His parents were Labour Party supporters, and named him after the party's first parliamentary leader, Keir Hardie . This left me baffled as the plot is really deepening. Maybe he is a Labour supporter after all? I also didnt know that In his teenage years, Starmer was active in Labour politics, and was a member of the East Surrey Young Socialists. I am eating an Apple and pondering all this.


There is no mention of infiltrator in the question you posed.


----------



## Serene (May 8, 2022)

This is the question I posed. The suggestions after the question mark are there to guide answers to the thoughts I had.


Serene said:


> Does anyone know the difference between Starmer and a Tory? I cant see any. I always thought he was yet another tory infiltrator of the party to keep it down. I admit to delusions in the same way all humans have delusions. Also is he using Brylcreem?


Can you spot the word infiltrator in there, anyone? 5 gold stars to anyone who can.


----------



## Serene (May 8, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> There is no mention of infiltrator in the question you posed.


The above reply was in answer to this question.


----------



## Serene (May 8, 2022)

It seems to make sense to suppose that Starmer is taking the party further right than left in order to have more efficacy to get Labour elected again, in the way that Blair did also. Being too far left doesnt have enough voters to ever do it.  It is a paradox.


----------



## a_chap (May 8, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> To an ultrapedant ...



Is there any other sort?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 8, 2022)

Serene said:


> This is the question I posed. The suggestions after the question mark are there to guide answers to the thoughts I had.
> 
> Can you spot the word infiltrator in there, anyone? 5 gold stars to anyone who can.


It's in the post, it's not in the question. Here's a hint: a question is a sentence ending in a question mark.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 8, 2022)

a_chap said:


> Is there any other sort?


Yes, lesser, lesser spotted, greater, ultra, uber and super. Not to mention king and emperor.


----------



## Serene (May 8, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> It's in the post, it's not in the question. Here's a hint: a question is a sentence ending in a question mark.


You have bullied me repeatedly since I have posted on here. I am female and you know this. I have had to put you on ignore many many times because of it and have given you chances. You constantly bully me. You are a creepy person. What is a person called who continually bullies women unsolicited?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 8, 2022)

Serene said:


> You have bullied me repeatedly since I have posted on here. I am female and you know this. I have had to put you on ignore many many times because of it and have given you chances. You constantly bully me. You are a creepy person. What is a person called who continually bullies women unsolicited?


I don't think I've been unpleasant to you in the slightest on this thread. Taking this current exchange as a case in point I've noted you asked the question about the difference between shammer and a Tory before at least once and likely several. Then you led us down a really peculiar pedantic rabbit hole about how the identical questions differed materially. I don't know why but I'm sure you have your reasons. Anyway, on ignore as a time waster


----------



## Smokeandsteam (May 8, 2022)

Serene said:


> Does anyone know the difference between Starmer and a Tory? I cant see any. I always thought he was yet another tory infiltrator of the party to keep it down.



He’s far from an infiltrator. Starmer is actually firmly within the dominant historical tradition of the Labour Party. By that I mean he’s generally committed to some form of social democracy as long as it it’s acceptable to the market and the state. By that I mean that at any given point he’ll put the interest of the state and capital before those of the organised working class. By that, I mean that his entire political worldview is entirely based on electoralism and parliamentary convention.


----------



## steveseagull (May 9, 2022)

It is quite amusing that the racist right wing rags he has been sucking up to are now trying to bring him down.


----------



## MickiQ (May 9, 2022)

steveseagull said:


> It is quite amusing that the racist right wing rags he has been sucking up to are now trying to bring him down.


I think it's more to deflect from the sins of the Man whose Pants are Ablaze than outrage at any great wrong on Starmer's part.


----------



## Rob Ray (May 9, 2022)

Man who could have predicted that repeatedly fucking off most of his support base in order to suck up to right-wingers who don't give a shit whether he lives or dies would leave Starmer vulnerable to the very pile-ons he'd exploited to get rid of his political rival? All that effort slandering the old man and not a penny of goodwill to spend from it.


----------



## Kaka Tim (May 9, 2022)

"jew baiting" ffs. Surely corbyn could sue them for that?


----------



## Knotted (May 9, 2022)

Looks like somebody has dropped him right in it. Party gate was exactly the sort of policy free grown-up-in-the-room issue for Starmer to exploit and so he went after it heavily. Hard to see how he can recover after it's back fired.


----------



## Rob Ray (May 9, 2022)

Corbyn's outright called anti-Semitic later in the column, which may be a bit far even for a fair comment defence. Libel's very expensive though and the Sun has very good lawyers.


----------



## killer b (May 9, 2022)

I'd imagine it's probably fair comment for the leader of a party that's been found to be institutionally antisemitic by the EHRC tbf (regardless of how you might feel about the finding)


----------



## pbsmooth (May 9, 2022)

I feel like assuming this blows over, it won't really damage him that much outside those who hate him already. most of the noise seems to be coming from people who were up for kicking him already.


----------



## ruffneck23 (May 9, 2022)




----------



## Knotted (May 9, 2022)

> Friends of Starmer said he had been blindsided by the intensity of the media and political pressure over the affair.
> 
> “It is almost beyond his imagination,” one said. “The content of the stories may be ridiculous but when they are weaponised by the Tory machine the impact is lethal.”



Well this has never happened before.


----------



## ruffneck23 (May 9, 2022)

Maybe he could ask his predecessor for some tips on how to handle the pressure.


----------



## emanymton (May 9, 2022)

Knotted said:


> Well this has never happened before.


Well I for one am shocked. 
I didn't think he had any friends.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 9, 2022)

pbsmooth said:


> I feel like assuming this blows over, it won't really damage him that much outside those who hate him already. most of the noise seems to be coming from people who were up for kicking him already.


yeh he's so damaged already i don't feel this will add much to the scorn already heaped on him for a lack of principles, politics, and indeed nous


----------



## ruffneck23 (May 9, 2022)




----------



## Quote (May 9, 2022)

Err, what's he playing at? 

Does he think he's going to shame Boris into resigning or something? The man who's whole career has been characterised by a complete & total lack of shame.


----------



## killer b (May 9, 2022)

I think as it's got to this point it's a fairly sound strategy - if he was fined he'd be done for anyway, so might as well do the whole put up or shut up thing.


----------



## ska invita (May 9, 2022)

ruffneck23 said:


>



He must really think he's innocent.
Clever move if he is found to be.
Hilarious if he isn't  🤞


----------



## cupid_stunt (May 9, 2022)

Sound move IMO, whether he get fined & resign or not, it leaves him looking good compared to Johnson.


----------



## Bingoman (May 9, 2022)

If he is fined sky news understands he will offer his resignation?


----------



## ruffneck23 (May 9, 2022)

He is speaking now...

Just said he will resign if he gets a FPN

He does sound a little teary though


----------



## cupid_stunt (May 9, 2022)

He's done it, he will resign if fined.


----------



## steveseagull (May 9, 2022)

His worse nightmare now is not getting fined but also not getting cleared a la our old friend Dominic Cummings.


----------



## extra dry (May 9, 2022)

stumbled over this channel a few months ago, fairly funny and on point.  3 minutes long


----------



## Pickman's model (May 9, 2022)

ruffneck23 said:


> He is speaking now...
> 
> Just said he will resign if he gets a FPN
> 
> He does sound a little teary though


less teary and more maudlin after a dozen pints


----------



## Cerv (May 9, 2022)

Quote said:


> Err, what's he playing at?
> 
> Does he think he's going to shame Boris into resigning or something? The man who's whole career has been characterised by a complete & total lack of shame.


fed up of being called a hypocrite by the cunts all weekend?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 9, 2022)

Cerv said:


> fed up of being called a hypocrite by the cunts all weekend?


Everyone knows he's a cunt


----------



## ruffneck23 (May 9, 2022)

Apparently Rayner has said she will go too.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 9, 2022)

ruffneck23 said:


> Apparently Rayner has said she will go too.


Two for the price of one


----------



## Bingoman (May 9, 2022)

ruffneck23 said:


> Apparently Rayner has said she will go too.


When?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 9, 2022)

Bingoman said:


> When?


Hopefully today


----------



## Wilf (May 9, 2022)

Well, this puts a wee bit of pressure on Durham Constabulary.  Erm... the power to remove this mighty colossus of the labour movement.   

Anyway, this was just about the only thing he could do and claws back a bit of the damage over the charge of hypocrisy.  His bigger problem is that he's a useless tosser who thinks banging on about Corbyn is his best route to power.  Getting ahead of the hypocrisy curve on party/pizzagate isn't going to affect that being a shit strategy.


----------



## magneze (May 9, 2022)

It's a good move. Interesting question of who would stand for the leadership in a contest. Both of them could ...


----------



## ruffneck23 (May 9, 2022)

Bingoman said:


> When?


I saw it a few mins ago, il try and find it, although I'm in the pub so it may take a few mins.


----------



## Bingoman (May 9, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> Hopefully today


No I meant when did she announce that she will go if fined I not heard this bit of new yet?


----------



## Spandex (May 9, 2022)

Christ, Starmer is fucking shit. 

For this super important press conference, which is clearly going to be all over the news, he spent more time staring at his notes than looking at the camera, looked and sounded completely insincere and is so boring I had trouble staying focused on what he was saying.

This is his big moment doing something daring and he looked like an 8 year old reading the introduction to a school play. Is that the best he can do? Did he not practice beforehand? Did no-one tell him?

So far I've figured this story is a load of bollocks pushed by the Tories through their mouthpiece at the Daily Mail to take the pressure off Johnson, but having watched the dismal Starmer's dismal performance  I find myself hoping for him to get slapped with a FPN just so I need never have to look at his useless fucking face again.

Come on Durham Constabulary do yer worst.


----------



## Wilf (May 9, 2022)

The other thing about this is that Labour are now stuck in the same time loop as the Tories over lockdown breaches... will you resign... let's wait to see what plod says... will you resign... rinse and repeat.


----------



## Bingoman (May 9, 2022)

magneze said:


> It's a good move. Interesting question of who would stand for the leadership in a contest. Both of them could ...


If both go at the same time then who would have to be the interim leader?


----------



## Wilf (May 9, 2022)

ruffneck23 said:


> I saw it a few mins ago, il try and find it, although I'm in the pub so it may take a few mins.


Pub minutes are much looser than other minutes in my experience.


----------



## Smangus (May 9, 2022)

Cue once in a lifetime unholy U75 support for a certain Northern based constabulary and their decision making......


----------



## lazythursday (May 9, 2022)

Isn't this to ratchet up pressure on Durham police - now it's a resigning matter it's deeply political to issue the fine (especially given they let Cummings get away with it) and the police don't like that kind of political attention. So they are now considerably less likely to fine Sir Keith than they were this morning. A gamble but probably one which will work.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 9, 2022)

Bingoman said:


> If both go at the same time then who would have to be the interim leader?


The shadow cabinet would scrap for it in parliament square


----------



## Wilf (May 9, 2022)

Tell you what, I bet Andy Burham is casting glances in the direction of Wakefield. Or is he too late?


----------



## emanymton (May 9, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> Sound move IMO, whether he get fined & resign or not, it leaves him looking good compared to Johnson.


Not a very high bar.


----------



## killer b (May 9, 2022)

lazythursday said:


> Isn't this to ratchet up pressure on Durham police - now it's a resigning matter it's deeply political to issue the fine (especially given they let Cummings get away with it) and the police don't like that kind of political attention. So they are now considerably less likely to fine Sir Keith than they were this morning. A gamble but probably one which will work.


I think it was always a resigning matter - his previous rhetoric on Johnson's FPNs made it impossible to be anything else.


----------



## maomao (May 9, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> less teary and more maudlin after a dozen pints


He's never finished a pint in his life.


----------



## Wilf (May 9, 2022)

Come on Durham, we need a bit of Zero Tolerance Policing! Tough on Starner, Tough on the Causes of Starmer!


----------



## Kaka Tim (May 9, 2022)

lazythursday said:


> Isn't this to ratchet up pressure on Durham police - now it's a resigning matter it's deeply political to issue the fine (especially given they let Cummings get away with it) and the police don't like that kind of political attention. So they are now considerably less likely to fine Sir Keith than they were this morning. A gamble but probably one which will work.


Maybe cos he knows he's very unlikely to get fined - so a risk free strategy and he gets the rule breaking stick back to hit Johnson with. But - Being Starmer - he will most likely twat himself in the face with it. Again. 
Also - what a bunch of fuckwits - you'd think they'd have been very careful not to have done anything that might have looked like rule breaking - even if it technically wasn't. Especially as they must have known about the downing street parties - even if it was only strong rumours.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (May 9, 2022)




----------



## SpookyFrank (May 9, 2022)

Smangus said:


> Cue once in a lifetime unholy U75 support for a certain Northern based constabulary and their decision making......



Second time in as many years, what with the Barnard Castle fiasco.


----------



## skyscraper101 (May 9, 2022)

I bet some marketing twat at brewdog or similar is already creating a can of 'Beergate' as I type.


----------



## Wilf (May 9, 2022)

TBH, I can't be bothered looking into who was there at this 'meal', but it was almost certainly low risk in terms of passing Covid on to people who were  already in close contact with each other. In that sense I don't give a shit about it. Johnson's serial partying was significantly worse, absolutely.  But as ever, Starmer knew this day was coming at some point and should hjave owned up long ago, made a fucking point of owning up, given all the details out. But no, another fucking omnishambles.


----------



## two sheds (May 9, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> Sound move IMO, whether he get fined & resign or not, it leaves him looking good compared to Johnson.


A block of wood looks good compared to Johnson.


----------



## Wilf (May 9, 2022)

skyscraper101 said:


> I bet some marketing twat at brewdog or similar is already creating a can of 'Beergate' as I type.


'A light joyless ale'


----------



## strung out (May 9, 2022)

Wilf said:


> TBH, I can't be bothered looking into who was there at this 'meal', but it was almost certainly low risk in terms of passing Covid on to people who were  already in close contact with each other. In that sense I don't give a shit about it. Johnson's serial partying was significantly worse, absolutely.  But as ever, Starmer knew this day was coming at some point and should hjave owned up long ago, made a fucking point of owning up, given all the details out. But no, another fucking omnishambles.


He did own up long ago didn't he? This was news fucking months ago and he addressed it then.


----------



## Sue (May 9, 2022)

Wilf said:


> 'A light joyless ale'


Keir Beer


----------



## Wilf (May 9, 2022)

strung out said:


> He did own up long ago didn't he? This was news fucking months ago and he addressed it then.


He admitted he was there and it happened, but not that it was pre-planned.  It's that bit that is the problem.


----------



## Wilf (May 9, 2022)

Anyway, Durham Miner's Gala is back on this year. Starner might get an invite, but he'd be risking arrest if he puts one foot in the Land of the Prince Bishops.


----------



## andysays (May 9, 2022)

emanymton said:


> Not a very high bar.



Still one which Starmer has consistently struggled to reach.

And TBH I really don't see that this is likely to change that - he will still look weak, inept etc whichever way Durham Police decide to go.


----------



## ruffneck23 (May 9, 2022)

Ah can't find the rayner thing, sorry if peeps got excited but It could have been fake news. I'm going back to my pint anyways.


----------



## andysays (May 9, 2022)

ruffneck23 said:


> Ah can't find the rayner thing, sorry if peeps got excited but It could have been fake news. I'm going back to my pint anyways.


It's being reported here.

*Keir Starmer: I'll quit if given Covid lockdown fine by police*​


> Angela Rayner also confirmed she would step down if issued with a fine...
> 
> ...Deputy Labour leader Ms Rayner said in her statement that she would "do the decent thing and step down" if she was issued with a fixed penalty notice.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 9, 2022)

andysays said:


> It's being reported here.
> 
> *Keir Starmer: I'll quit if given Covid lockdown fine by police*​


Couldn't she do the decent thing and quit now?


----------



## ruffneck23 (May 9, 2022)

andysays said:


> It's being reported here.
> 
> *Keir Starmer: I'll quit if given Covid lockdown fine by police*​


Thank you


----------



## redcogs (May 9, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> Couldn't she do the decent thing and quit now?


How could the world continue functioning properly with BoJo Keir and leggy Rayner remaining in office?  Obviously a major crisis is imminent.  Woe betide anyone seeking to trivialise matters of such supreme importance.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (May 9, 2022)

andysays said:


> And TBH I really don't see that this is likely to change that - he will still look weak, inept etc whichever way Durham Police decide to go.



Not sure I follow. There are definitely some contingencies here - for example, the cops will feel some heat now knowing that having been bounced by the Mail, the Tories and other media cunts into reopening the investigation the stakes have been somewhat raised - but I’m not sure what Starmer and Rayner should have done instead and why this course of action makes them look ‘weak’.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (May 9, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> Sound move IMO, whether he get fined & resign or not, it leaves him looking good compared to Johnson.



It’s also, isn’t it, what most normal people would do in the same circumstances or, at least, what their employer would force them to. Starmer and Rayner are useless but they are right on this.


----------



## philosophical (May 9, 2022)

The criticism of Starmer is now why not do this some days ago.
That's a struggle though, the too little too late attack, because though it might be too late for some, it isn't too little, Starmer is putting his money where his mouth is, this is something a lot of people can understand.
The utter bastards have been wrong footed, and they are in a zugzwang over this.


----------



## killer b (May 9, 2022)

The polling on this is interesting - the whole story is just noise_. _No-one's mind is being changed by it. Looks like they maxed out on people who are likely to give a shit about partygate a bit ago too.


----------



## ruffneck23 (May 9, 2022)

I'm not a starmer fan, but he may have played a blinder, if only the tories were honourable.


----------



## Sue (May 9, 2022)

ruffneck23 said:


> I'm not a starmer fan, but he may have played a blinder, if only the tories were honourable.


Or he may end up going over something way less than Johnson's done. Who's then left sitting pretty. Which would be hilarious tbh.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (May 9, 2022)

The


Sue said:


> Or he may end up going over something way less than Johnson's done. Who's then left sitting pretty. Which would be hilarious tbh.



In those circumstances whoever replaces Starmer can continue to contrast Starmer’s principle resignation with Johnson. Let’s face it Starmer isn’t going to win an election so he’s not much of a loss. I can’t see a downside for Labour


----------



## SpookyFrank (May 9, 2022)

Sue said:


> Or he may end up going over something way less than Johnson's done. Who's then left sitting pretty. Which would be hilarious tbh.



I dunno, if I was Boris Johnson I would want Starmer to remain in post for the rest of time. If Sir Keith was replaced by a shoebox full of roadkill, the effectiveness of her majesty's opposition could only increase.


----------



## bluescreen (May 9, 2022)

emanymton said:


> Not a very high bar.


there was no bar at No 10, hence the need for the wheelie case.


----------



## Sue (May 9, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> In those circumstances whoever replaces Starmer can continue to contrast Starmer’s principle resignation with Johnson. Let’s face it Starmer isn’t going to win an election so he’s not much of a loss. I can’t see a downside for Labour


And by the time whoever succeeded him was in place, no-one would remember/care about the reason for his principled resignation. 🤷‍♀️


----------



## Smokeandsteam (May 9, 2022)

Sue said:


> And by the time whoever succeeded him was in place, no-one would remember/care about the reason for his principled resignation. 🤷‍♀️



Except Johnson is going nowhere, the Gray report hasn’t even been published and the Met are, supposedly, resuming the issuing of FPN to Downing Street types. Also, every matter could be weaponised now and made about Johnson’s (lack of) integrity and honesty. As I say all of that for the price of an exonerated or successor to Starmer seems fair enough to me


----------



## Sue (May 9, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Except Johnson is going nowhere, the Gray report hasn’t even been published and the Met are, supposedly, resuming the issuing of FPN to Downing Street types. Also, every matter could be weaponised now and made about Johnson’s (lack of) integrity and honesty. As I say all of that for the price of an exonerated or successor to Starmer seems fair enough to me


You're clearly a lot more optimistic about this than I am. Let's see what happens.


----------



## Wilf (May 9, 2022)

Labour/Starmer pretty confident they won't get an FPN from this:








						Labour says it can prove Starmer’s team worked past 1am on Beergate night
					

Exclusive: party to present dossier of evidence to police claiming curry and beers were part of working day




					www.theguardian.com
				




Why the fuck they didn't release this stuff a month ago I don't know.  Would have given them the chance to go onto the attack with full force.  As it is, they've produced the 'dossier', but are left semi-hanging on to hear what Durham cops say.  It all feels a bit like a score draw out of the jaws of defeat out of the jaws of victory.


----------



## killer b (May 9, 2022)

Wilf said:


> Why the fuck they didn't release this stuff a month ago I don't know


No one gave a shit about this story a month ago. It's only really taken root in the last week - imagine they thought responding to it a month ago when no one gave a shit would have just given it more legs


----------



## Wilf (May 9, 2022)

killer b said:


> No one gave a shit about this story a month ago. It's only really taken root in the last week - imagine they thought responding to it a month ago when no one gave a shit would have just given it more legs


The mail etc have been gnawing away at this for weeks, along with a number of tory MPs.  A display of openness and straight - full - answers might have gone down rather well.  It's not that people give a shit about the Starmer story, it just has the effect of blurring the edges of the johnson version.  And people do, still, give a shit about that.


----------



## killer b (May 9, 2022)

Wilf said:


> The mail etc have been gnawing away at this for weeks, along with a number of tory MPs.  A display of openness and straight - full - answers might have gone down rather well.  It's not that people give a shit about the Starmer story, it just has the effect of blurring the edges of the johnson version.  And people do, still, give a shit about that.


They don't give a shit though - look at the polling I posted: no one cares. The only reason it's being attended to now is because they can't get anything else done because the journalists wont let them talk about anything else. Its totally a press thing though, the public aren't interested.


----------



## Bingoman (May 9, 2022)

On Sky news press preview the Sun's Harry Cole asking an important question, who brought the beer


----------



## strung out (May 9, 2022)

Wilf said:


> The mail etc have been gnawing away at this for weeks, along with a number of tory MPs.  A display of openness and straight - full - answers might have gone down rather well.  It's not that people give a shit about the Starmer story, it just has the effect of blurring the edges of the johnson version.  And people do, still, give a shit about that.


Providing the evidence to the Mail or Tory MPs would have done fuck all to make them shut up about it, and the police only announced they were investigating on Friday.


----------



## Kaka Tim (May 10, 2022)

Kind of win win.
Cops clear starmer - throws spotlight back on Johnson.
Cops issue Starmer with a fine - He resigns which puts huge pressure on johnson to do the same.  Also - Labour get different leader who might be slightly more effective and relatable than  David Brent in wet paper bag form.  
Extra lols if starmer gets a fine but Raynor doesn't. 

Also the public do not percieve Starmer as remotely like some kind of party animal - hes all dull and dithery and in bed by 10pm most nights - whearas Johnson always looks like he suppressing the urge to  run around whooping wearing a pair of plastic tits before stopping to piss in a fountain. Or on a homeless person.


----------



## elbows (May 10, 2022)

Theres also something amusing about it given the number of times in the past we groaned at Starmers attempts to appear to be a normal person by having photo opportunities with a beer in hand.

Which remonds me that a chunk of the public wont care about this issue because they dont know who Starmer is.


----------



## killer b (May 10, 2022)

elbows said:


> Which remonds me that a chunk of the public wont care about this issue because they dont know who Starmer is.


only 8% according to yougov


----------



## elbows (May 10, 2022)

Yeah Im just having a cheap pop at him, its not a big factor in the political ramifications of this story.

There arent too many 'leaders' in this country that impressed me with their pandemic attitudes, so if the beer did for him I wouldnt complain.


----------



## steeplejack (May 10, 2022)

Shur Kieth aspires to the kind of political career that when you resign, people _notice_


----------



## eatmorecheese (May 10, 2022)

It's quite extraordinary. Whenever I hear Starmer's adenoidal speech I feel my brain auto-deleting any memory of what he is saying. All the impact of being flayed by a duster.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 10, 2022)

steeplejack said:


> Shur Kieth aspires to the kind of political career that when you resign, people _notice_


yeh they'll be astonished and ask who was that dull man


----------



## Pickman's model (May 10, 2022)

Kaka Tim said:


> Kind of win win.
> Cops clear starmer - throws spotlight back on Johnson.
> Cops issue Starmer with a fine - He resigns which puts huge pressure on johnson to do the same.  Also - Labour get different leader who might be slightly more effective and relatable than  David Brent in wet paper bag form.
> Extra lols if starmer gets a fine but Raynor doesn't.
> ...


except it won't


----------



## andysays (May 10, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> except it won't


Yeah, the sad reality of this whole situation is that whatever Starmer does is largely an irrelevance as far as Johnson is concerned.

For a brief moment there looked to be a possibility that enough Tory MPs might be sufficiently outraged/concerned for their own seats that they'd seek to depose him over this, but that possibility now appears to be well and truly over.

If this is all a cunning plan by Starmer to try to make Johnson look bad, perhaps even to shame him into resigning, it really doesn't stand much (any) chance of succeeding.


----------



## teqniq (May 10, 2022)

FBU disenchanted to say the least with what they perceive as an increasing rightwards drift by Labour under Starmer:









						Firefighters’ Union To Vote On Cutting Ties With The Labour Party
					

Exclusive: The Labour Party’s union link is at risk of weakening further as the left-wing firefighters’ union FBU is set to vote on disaffiliation ...




					www.politicshome.com
				






> The motion proposed by the Merseyside branch claims Keir Starmer’s Labour has “seemingly attempted to purge itself of socialists, actively distance itself from working men and women and sought to align itself with big business”.
> 
> The resolution concludes: “Conference is no longer convinced that the aims and objectives of the Labour Party reflect those of the FBU. With this in mind the conference demands the FBU disaffiliate from the Labour Party nationally with immediate effect.”...



also:



> Supporters of the fresh bid to disaffiliate from Labour say it has been motivated mainly by Keir Starmer’s decision to write an opinion piece for The Sun last year.
> 
> “It’s the leadership’s close connection with The Sun that’s really inflamed it,” a Merseyside FBU member told PoliticsHome.
> 
> ...


----------



## Beermoth (May 10, 2022)

I'm surprised the FBU haven't hopped it already. They disaffiliated in 2004 and only rejoined under Corbyn.


----------



## two sheds (May 10, 2022)

Entitled "spot the difference"


----------



## Calamity1971 (May 10, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Entitled "spot the difference"
> 
> View attachment 322063


Bunter has aged spectacularly quickly! He needs to keep it up.


----------



## Larry O'Hara (May 10, 2022)

ska invita said:


> interview here



I've now watched this: some very useful points made. His dad would be proud (I think!)


----------



## Larry O'Hara (May 10, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> It’s doesn’t matter what the Durham police do now. The narrative has successfully been shifted from Johnson to ‘all of em were at it’. Presumably Johnson and his team will see that as ‘job done’. Also, presumably, Starmer will see the need to dial down the attacks over the Downing Street parties and focus on having nothing much to say about the cost of living crisis instead. Johnson will stagger on with the Grey report and further fines to come and the low level civil war in the Tory party will rumble on.   Meanwhile millions will be tipped further into poverty as energy and prices continue to rise and wages fall behind. Unlike the 1970’s the consequences won’t be played out as a battle between capital and organised labour (as the latter no longer exists).
> 
> Roll on a long hot summer…..


Actually, much as I despise Starmer, his promised resignation if fined is a potential masterstroke, turning a potential crisis for him (which is all he cares about) into a grandstanding opportunity.  Time will tell, but it is not impossible he will have been informed by former CPS colleagues about what the police might say.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (May 11, 2022)

Larry O'Hara said:


> Actually, much as I despise Starmer, his promised resignation if fined is a potential masterstroke, turning a potential crisis for him (which is all he cares about) into a grandstanding opportunity.  Time will tell, but it is not impossible he will have been informed by former CPS colleagues about what the police might say.



Good point. I note the Tory media are quitely moving on from the story presumably on the basis that they think the game is up.


----------



## killer b (May 11, 2022)

I don't think it's a grandstanding opportunity - it's just an attempt to shut down a story which no-one actually cares about or believes, but was nonetheless dominating the news. Seems to have worked too.


----------



## Larry O'Hara (May 11, 2022)

killer b said:


> I don't think it's a grandstanding opportunity - it's just an attempt to shut down a story which no-one actually cares about or believes, but was nonetheless dominating the news. Seems to have worked too.


Actually, Starmer is hoping to potentially leverage the issue to pretend he has integrity: because after all he has no policies


----------



## TopCat (May 11, 2022)

Larry O'Hara said:


> Actually, Starmer is hoping to potentially leverage the issue to pretend he has integrity: because after all he has no policies


To be fair he has, its Tory economics without overt bigotry.


----------



## Larry O'Hara (May 11, 2022)

TopCat said:


> To be fair he has, its Tory economics without overt bigotry.


yes I should have said no unique distinctive policies


----------



## Humberto (May 11, 2022)

Plus lack of charisma? Get the feeling he wouldn't be much less draconian than the incumbent shower, an echo of what really did my head in about the later New Labour years.


----------



## Knotted (May 12, 2022)

I was wrong earlier to suggest that beergate was going to be a tough one for Starmer. I think he's handled it well. I also agree that most people don't give a shit about it. But on a political/ethical note, I _do_ judge him/them for this.

The question of breaking the rules is a completely arbitrary question. The virus doesn't care if you are holding a bottle of beer or if you go back to work when you've finished it. But the reason the rules are arbitrary is that maintaining labour discipline, and the convenience of business dictate the rules more than fighting the virus ever did. This is something even the Labour Party should have been fully aware of and in some form or other should have pressed the government to fight more effectively against the virus. If they were working in that office, they were working without masks, without social distancing and it seems without ventilation. I don't  give a shit if they'd stopped for a full on knees up. The point is they were breaking the guidelines. They were doing in practice what they were doing politically ie. scabbing on the fight against Covid. This wasn't the public face of Labour. Remember that interview that Owen Jones did with the Labour candidate for Hartlepool? They sat metres away from each other, outside. That was the norm at that time, that was the proper way to behave. So watching Starmer and co break the guidelines like that makes my blood boil. I know a lot of people behaved similarly, so I apologise in advance but at that time we needed leadership and for politicians to set an example.


----------



## ska invita (May 13, 2022)

interesting thing i got from this








						Tony Blair tells Starmer to drop ‘woke’ politics and focus on economy
					

Former PM says Labour leader needs to win back remainers who voted Tory in 2019 election




					www.theguardian.com
				



was the policy suggestion of biometric ID cards
- so Starmer id bet the farm he proposes it (though maybe thats more of a second term lol policy)


----------



## TopCat (May 13, 2022)

ska invita said:


> interesting thing i got from this
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I read that more as drop the only differentiation with the tories e.g. embrace overt bigotry.


----------



## philosophical (May 13, 2022)

Starmer says ‘make Brexit work’ which a) presumes ‘Brexit’ means something and b) presumes anything about leave is going to work on the land border between the UK and the EU.
Perhaps he needs solutions from those ‘lexiter’ morons.


----------



## ska invita (May 13, 2022)

TopCat said:


> I read that more as drop the only differentiation with the tories e.g. embrace overt bigotry.


Yeah but thats old news


----------



## DotCommunist (May 13, 2022)

That fucking mouth and his ID cards obsession. Move on tony, go roast another child over the fire you cunt.


----------



## NoXion (May 13, 2022)

DotCommunist said:


> That fucking mouth and his ID cards obsession. Move on tony, go roast another child over the fire you cunt.



War criminals love that kind of shit.


----------



## The39thStep (May 13, 2022)

ska invita said:


> interesting thing i got from this
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Funnily enough one thing that is good about the EU is it’s biometric ID cards


----------



## Pickman's model (May 13, 2022)

.


----------



## ruffneck23 (May 13, 2022)




----------



## ska invita (May 13, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Funnily enough one thing that is good about the EU is it’s biometric ID cards


I still have privacy concerns particularly with regards facial recognition, but I see it as an inevitability. Once the ID to vote thing kicks in it provides another rationale to do it


----------



## Pickman's model (May 13, 2022)

ska invita said:


> I still have privacy concerns particularly with regards facial recognition, but I see it as an inevitability. Once the ID to vote thing kicks in it provides another rationale to do it


No, it doesn't. The argument may indeed be put forwards but it's not founded on the logical basis rationales are, rather it is a point at which Tory voter suppression interests meet commercial interests


----------



## ska invita (May 13, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> No, it doesn't. The argument may indeed be put forwards but it's not founded on the logical basis rationales are, rather it is a point at which Tory voter suppression interests meet commercial interests


So let me understand - you are making a pedantic point about the correct definition of the word "rationale"?
😴


----------



## SpookyFrank (May 13, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Funnily enough one thing that is good about the EU is it’s biometric ID cards



What's good about them? In much of Europe you're required to have ID at all times and can be compelled to produce it for no fucking reason at all. The fact this has never caught on in the UK is one of the few things that are better here than in the EU.

Blair failed with this idea before and now he wants another crack at it. Because he's a mad cunt.

E2a: Even if ID cards were a good idea, if either labour or the tories were implementing them it'd be a bottomless pit of cash for every spiv IT consultant from here to Hong Kong and it still wouldn't work. But they'd pretend it did work and make it mandatory for everything, causing untold grief and misery.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 13, 2022)

ska invita said:


> So let me understand - you are making a pedantic point about the correct definition of the word "rationale"?
> 😴


this is the sort of thing people contribute when they can't actually argue with the substance of a post


----------



## Wilf (May 13, 2022)

philosophical said:


> Starmer says ‘make Brexit work’ which a) presumes ‘Brexit’ means something and b) presumes anything about leave is going to work on the land border between the UK and the EU.
> Perhaps he needs solutions from those ‘lexiter’ morons.


2016 wants its argument back.


----------



## philosophical (May 13, 2022)

Wilf said:


> 2016 wants its argument back.



A lot of people say stuff like that. Close down or avoid the glaring issue by whinging on about ‘let’s not re-run the leave debate’, a handy line for some, but not a solution to the issue that existed in the run up to the vote, during the vote, and remains an issue since the vote, as events in the last week in Northern Ireland have shown.
Leave won the vote, but then avoids the consequences, and digs out others who highlight the consequences of leave.


----------



## philosophical (May 13, 2022)




----------



## The39thStep (May 13, 2022)

SpookyFrank said:


> What's good about them? In much of Europe you're required to have ID at all times and can be compelled to produce it for no fucking reason at all. The fact this has never caught on in the UK is one of the few things that are better here than in the EU.
> 
> Blair failed with this idea before and now he wants another crack at it. Because he's a mad cunt.
> 
> E2a: Even if ID cards were a good idea if either labour or the tories were implementing them it'd be a bottomless pit of cash for every spiv IT consultant from here to Hong Kong and it still wouldn't work. But they'd pretend it did work and make it mandatory for everything, causing untold grief and misery.


I think you partially answered the 'what's good about them ' in your first sentence. Over here the ID card is for voting, health/hospital visits/, contact with govt departments
travel within EU , and any other stuff where you have to show entitlement or identity.  I'm still waiting for mine ( the border control service is being reorganised ) so have to carry three separate pieces of paper.

Agree with your last para though.


----------



## SpookyFrank (May 13, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> I think you partially answered the 'what's good about them ' in your first sentence. Over here the ID card is for voting, health/hospital visits/, contact with govt departments
> travel within EU , and any other stuff where you have to show entitlement or identity.  I'm still waiting for mine ( the border control service is being reorganised ) so have to carry three separate pieces of paper.



For this to make sense you'd have to first establish that, for example, having photo ID for voting was necessary. We've never had it before, and electoral fraud (by actual voters at least) has been so rare as to be an irrelevance.

In Europe ID cards are needed for everything because they're mandatory. They're not mandatory because they're needed for everything. They invented the thing first, and then the reason for inventing it. 

In the UK, the reason was supposedly terrorism. Before that it was 'challenge 21' and the massive entrapment operation that went with it. Now it's voter ID, yet another problem that the state could more easily fix by simply not making it a problem in the first place.


----------



## NoXion (May 13, 2022)

Seems a bit daft security-wise to have your entire legal identity encoded onto a single card that could get lost or stolen. OK, maybe they could techify it by having the "ID Card" be an app on your smartphone. Which would be even worse from a security standpoint, because the identity thief need not even be in the same part of the country now that it's stored on an internet-connected device.


----------



## Rob Ray (May 13, 2022)

Not to mention it'd be an absolute gift for law enforcement if they're looking to harass or ID someone at a protest. They've got enough repressive weaponry in their arsenal as it is.


----------



## NoXion (May 13, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> Not to mention it'd be an absolute gift for law enforcement if they're looking to harass or ID someone at a protest. They've got enough repressive weaponry in their arsenal as it is.



What happens in the EU?


----------



## Rob Ray (May 13, 2022)

NoXion said:


> What happens in the EU?


Depends on the country I'd imagine. In France though (to take one example) it's been used repeatedly to go after anyone showing "visible signs of foreignness" (this is an actual legal term) as part of anti-migrant crackdowns. Not showing ID at a protest is also grounds for being taken into custody, unlike in Britain where you can only be made to give your name if you're suspected of an offence.


----------



## steveseagull (May 27, 2022)

His team are already planning on losing the next election and making plans to replace him. He has done his job. he has hounded the left out. Now it is time for him to go and be replaced by a hardline Blairite.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 27, 2022)

steveseagull said:


> His team are already planning on losing the next election and making plans to replace him. He has done his job. he has hounded the left out. Now it is time for him to go and be replaced by a hardline Blairite.




don't think 6-12 months long enough for labour to learn from their mistakes


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (May 27, 2022)

From their point of view the 'mistakes' are always going to be 'was too left wing', regardless of what happens. Reckon they could get there in five minutes tbh.


----------



## steveseagull (May 27, 2022)

Thanks for the screenie. Didn't notice it had chopped it off.

The problem with centrists is they could never ever consider they are wrong about anything so I doubt any mistake learning is going to happen. See tony Blair's new wheeze


----------



## steveseagull (May 27, 2022)

"HOW CAN WE POSSIBLY BE WRONG! WE ARE ON THE SENSIBLE CENTRE"


----------



## two sheds (May 27, 2022)

"WE JUST NEED TO ADJUST OUR MESSAGING AND WE'LL WIN NEXT TIME"


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (May 27, 2022)

MORE FLAGS!!!!!


----------



## Pickman's model (May 27, 2022)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> MORE FLAGS!!!!!


----------



## two sheds (May 27, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> View attachment 324302


why aren't you holding flags in your avatar?  that's just unpatriotic.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 27, 2022)

two sheds said:


> why aren't you holding flags in your avatar?  that's just unpatriotic.


i was directing the semaphore signalling


----------



## Pickman's model (May 27, 2022)

two sheds said:


> why aren't you holding flags in your avatar?  that's just unpatriotic.


surprised you haven't deciphered the message in 7315


----------



## two sheds (May 27, 2022)

i left the cubs because they wouldn't give me my skipping badge  and Google images doesn't seem to do that sort of thing


----------



## Pickman's model (May 27, 2022)

two sheds said:


> i left the cubs because they wouldn't give me my skipping badge  and Google images doesn't seem to do that sort of thing


fuck off shammer


----------



## two sheds (May 27, 2022)

yeh would probably have taken me as much time to get out the Semaphore Encyclopedia but I been filling cracks in the house and weeding and planting on and taking dog for walk and err other things so I'll transliterate later on


----------



## two sheds (May 27, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> View attachment 324302


took me longer than it should have done


----------



## two sheds (Jun 1, 2022)

I think this is something we can all get behind


----------



## steveseagull (Jun 1, 2022)

has the twat seen the state of the country?


----------



## steveseagull (Jun 1, 2022)

i have seen this meme on social media more than the actual article today which is what happens when you hide behind a Tory paywall


----------



## killer b (Jun 2, 2022)

I read the article, and he doesn't say its your patriotic duty to celebrate the platinum jubilee fwiw.


----------



## killer b (Jun 2, 2022)

It is terrible crawly filth though


----------



## AnnO'Neemus (Jun 2, 2022)

ruffneck23 said:


>



Always amuses me to see photos of politicians gurning, grimacing, inadvertently pulling silly faces in news articles. 

A production journalist who uploads articles to a website (not necessarily the author of the article), will generally have access to an in-house library of photos and also external stock photo libraries, like Getty and Alamy. 

The production journalist will likely have any number of photos they could use where the subject doesn't look weird, so it's usually a conscious choice to use one like that. Of course, sometimes a photo of someone at a particular event, press conference, or whatever, is required, and then your choices are more limited. 

But when I see a photo like that illustrating a news article I think 'Ooh, that production journalist doesn't like [whoever it is].


----------



## two sheds (Jun 2, 2022)

I did read (Skwawkbox  ) that Starmer is quite safe saying he'll resign if fined because he knows Durham plods don't fine people retrospectively who've broken lockdown rules.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Jun 2, 2022)

two sheds said:


> I did read (Skwawkbox  ) that Starmer is quite safe saying he'll resign if fined because he knows Durham plods don't fine people retrospectively who've broken lockdown rules.



Oh yes they do, from The Times -



> Durham police carried out a retrospective investigation into a coronavirus breach and issued a fine within weeks of Sir Keir Starmer being filmed drinking a beer, it has emerged.
> 
> The force has refused to say whether it will fine the Labour leader even if it finds him guilty of breaking lockdown rules for drinking and eating a takeaway meal in an MP’s office last April. Some of Starmer’s supporters have assumed that detectives would not issue a fixed-penalty notice because they decided not to take retrospective action against Dominic Cummings, the prime minister’s former adviser.
> 
> However, the force’s approach appeared to harden later in the pandemic and it issued a £10,000 fine to a woman who organised a balloon release in memory of her father-in-law, who died of Covid.





> A court report by The Northern Echo revealed that Hutchinson, in her mid-thirties, had urged friends and family to wear masks and stay socially distanced at the balloon release. It said that police did not attend the gathering of about 30 people and there was no disorder.
> 
> However, it appears that there was a retrospective investigation after a complaint. Durham police analysed a livestream video of the event before issuing the fine, the report said.
> 
> The approach to Hutchinson’s case raises fresh questions about how the Durham force might handle the case of Starmer, who has denied wrongdoing.





			archive.ph


----------



## two sheds (Jun 2, 2022)

We can always hope then


----------



## AnnO'Neemus (Jun 2, 2022)

ruffneck23 said:


>



I know quite a lot of lefties who joined the party in the Corbyn era, who became active in their local CLPs, who did a lot of canvassing and campaigning. And since Corbyn was ousted, most of them have not only disengaged from being actively involved in their CLP, but have left the party. Some relatively recently. 

Some of those 'Corbynistas' still clung on, hoping to help maintain a foothold for the left in a party increasingly veering rightwards, towards and even beyond the centre. I think for them, their political engagement wasn't about personality politics, they didn't so much get on board with the cult of Corbyn as it's (mis)represented, although arguably many younger folk did. 

Most of the ones I knew who hopped on the Corbyn bandwagon were in their thirties and above, already politically engaged, albeit through campaigning over any number of single issue campaigns: housing, anti-arms trade/militarism, environment and climate change, workers rights and trade unionism, etc. 

It wasn't so much that they believed in Corbyn like the cultish figure he's made out to be, like some political Piper of Hamlyn, leading the party and everyone in it to a far-left political wilderness. He wasn't leading them left, they were already in and of the left. It was more that he mirrored and capitalised on their existing beliefs and activities. He represented lefties like them. And it had been a long time since they'd felt they had that kind of representation in parliament and the constituency Labour Parties, and in terms of the public and wider society.

Corbyn was both popular and populist (the latter in the original/broader sense, rather than the right-wing rabble-rouser sense). 

But now many of those Corbynistas, who didn't so much believe in Corbyn like the quasi-religious figurehead of a movement, but more saw him as representative of their existing beliefs and political identity and principles, have drifted away. 

It seems the party thought expelling - or the political equivalent of constructive dismissal, forcing out - lots of Corbynistas meant they would regain control of their party and lots of centrists who'd been turned off by Corbyn and the left would come flocking back to the party. But that hasn't happened. 

In any event, Labour has always taken working class people and people on the left for granted. And that didn't matter so much. But the working class and those on the broader left still mostly saw the Labour Party as their party when it came to voting in elections. It was a bit like football colours, they were red, just because they were red.

But now many of those from the Corbyn era are now declaring themselves politically homeless, and saying they can't vote for Labour because it doesn't represent them, and because the way Corbyn was treated was shameful - but that's tokenism, in the sense that being critical of how the parliamentary party and the executive treated Corbyn is, by extension, a criticism of how they, the people who joined and got actively involved and expended so much time and energy in attending meetings and canvassing and campaigning etc were also treated so shamefully. 

It's hard to come back from that. It's one thing for Labour to take for granted the votes of the working class and those more vaguely on the left without party political affiliations, and it's another for Labour to take for granted the votes of those who in recent memory were stabbed in the back by the very same party that now wants to rely on/take for granted its votes. Many are declaring themselves politically homeless and while some might hold their nose and vote for Labour, there will be many who abstain or protest vote for smaller leftist parties or Green or whatever.

And I think Labour haven't woken up to that, I think they still think those people who they've been so vindictive towards and ousted or driven out of the party somehow still owe Labour their vote, because who else are they going to vote for, right? Erm, no one. 

And as well as the lefties who were part of the Corbyn surge in party membership and political engagement and activity whose votes can no longer be taken for granted...


...there are also the gender critical feminists. I know a fair few. Again, talking about being politically homeless. And these are women who haven't been and aren't bigots. Some have been involved in radical feminist politics for years. They're raging lefties to their core. Yet they now feel that Labour doesn't necessarily represent or safeguard the interests of women, ie women who were born women/assigned female at birth. 

Again, there are many people whose votes Labour could previously have taken for granted, who are now saying that they don't feel any mainstream political party represents them or their concerns, and there's lots of talk of abstentions.

I suspect that Labour is underestimating and not properly taking account of how significant and issue this is to many women. I have friends around the country, who don't know each other but either speak out publicly or privately about the erosion of protections for women. It's not just the odd one or two people, there's a fair few, from different job sectors, different parts of the country, but all lefty types, more or less politically engaged, some having been activists and campaigners relating to different humanitarian issues, and some who are more vaguely lefty but not previously politically active but who are speaking out.

I think Labour might be in for a shock as to how so many of the voters whose votes they'd previously taken for granted will now be abstaining or spoiling their vote or voting for other candidates. 

I think these two reasons are partly why Labour has been doing so badly in the polls, plus Starmer has all the charisma of a damp squib.


----------



## ska invita (Jun 2, 2022)

AnnO'Neemus said:


> I think Labour might be in for a shock as to how so many of the voters whose votes they'd previously taken for granted will now be abstaining or spoiling their vote or voting for other candidates.


didnt really happen in the May local elections though - there was some movement but it wasnt seismic


----------



## two sheds (Jun 2, 2022)

I liked Corbyn as a person but his policies were why I supported him.


----------



## steveseagull (Jun 2, 2022)

If he panders to the 'gender criticals', especially those who (not all) spend all their lives loudly questioning on Twitter whether Trans people should be allowed to exist, he will piss off the majority of women who have no issues with trans people, plus he will be taking the party into Britain First territory.


----------



## PR1Berske (Jun 2, 2022)

ska invita said:


> didnt really happen in the May local elections though - there was some movement but it wasnt seismic


It seemed to be a North/South split which is the last thing Starmer would want to tackle.


----------



## gosub (Jun 2, 2022)

steveseagull said:


> i have seen this meme on social media more than the actual article today which is what happens when you hide behind a Tory paywall
> 
> View attachment 325109


Thank fuck for Keith. Telling Telegraph readers how it is. Shameless hotbed of communist Republicans that they are


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jun 5, 2022)

hmm

the 'marginally less shit than the tories' strategy seems to be working...


----------



## two sheds (Jun 6, 2022)

> *Keir Starmer* says today’s result shows the country faces a choice between “divided Tories” and a “united Labour party”.


----------



## 8ball (Jun 6, 2022)

Keith laying down the law there…


----------



## magneze (Jun 6, 2022)

Isnt he resigning soon?


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 6, 2022)

will someone iron his bloody shirt properly before letting him on telly


----------



## gosub (Jun 6, 2022)

Got til Wednesday to up his game


----------



## 8ball (Jun 6, 2022)

gosub said:


> Got til Wednesday to up his game



Soz, what happens Wednesday?


----------



## killer b (Jun 6, 2022)

nothing


----------



## gosub (Jun 6, 2022)

PMqs

If he's playing the room Wedmesday

If he's playing the gallery, he's a carismaless fuck


----------



## gosub (Jun 6, 2022)

Oops wet phone


----------



## Calamity1971 (Jun 6, 2022)

gosub said:


> Got til Wednesday to up his game


He'll never up his game, the wet wipe.


----------



## elbows (Jun 11, 2022)

Oh they have noticed that he is shit an they havent got any policies that might motivate people to give a shit about the prospect of their party coming to power.



> Conversations with shadow cabinet members, party aides and other senior Labour figures this week revealed deep disquiet about whether Starmer and his team are ready to capitalise on the Tories’ weakness.





> Some also raised concerns about the televised statement Starmer made on Monday evening in response to the Tory confidence vote, in which he repeatedly said the public were “fed up”. “He looked like he’d come in from the pub,” complained one usually loyal supporter.





> Colleagues say Claire Ainsley, Labour’s head of policy, who is in charge of manifesto development, is detached from the political side of the operation. One senior aide said: “There’s no sense of where we can make political hay against our opponents, areas we can be exploiting to draw a clear dividing line between ourselves and the Tories.”





> “Fundamentally, I don’t think Keir thinks it’s his job to come up with ideas,” one MP said. Another shadow minister said: “The way he works is, he likes to commission a paper from his staff who come to him and say ‘here are some options on policy x, what do you think?’”
> 
> That means that while Starmer may be writing a book on his political philosophy, some of his closest colleagues still struggle to understand what their leader stands for. “What is his project?” asked one shadow minister.



Eughhh...



> Starmer’s allies say people should not underestimate the challenges he has faced since become leader: mending shattered party morale, fixing the antisemitism problem, and struggling to get Labour’s message across during the pandemic.
> 
> “I think he doesn’t get enough credit for segueing out of Corbynism without being pulled into a betrayal narrative,” said one senior party figure. “The membership know what he’s trying to do. He’s taken them on a journey and they’re now his members and they’re his people.”



Starmers People sounds like the sort of tv series that gets cancelled after the first episode, after ending up with more production staff than viewers.









						Not full of confidence: Labour frets over Starmer’s response to Tory chaos
					

Many in the opposition fear their leader is not sufficiently punishing the government’s weakness




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## two sheds (Jun 11, 2022)

I think he doesn’t get enough credit for segueing out of Corbynism without being pulled into a betrayal narrative,” said one senior party figure.


----------



## bendeus (Jun 11, 2022)

two sheds said:


> I think he doesn’t get enough credit for segueing out of Corbynism without being pulled into a betrayal narrative,” said one senior party figure.


I'd even go as far as to suggest that he doesn't get any credit at all for it. Can't think why.


----------



## magneze (Jun 11, 2022)

Poll says Keir Starmer worse choice for PM than Boris Johnson
					

Labour ahead of Tories by two points, but Labour’s leader failing to make personal breakthrough




					www.theguardian.com
				




Comedy polling here. After everything, Starmer still rated below Johnson.


----------



## steveseagull (Jun 11, 2022)

He is finished isn't he?


----------



## two sheds (Jun 11, 2022)

Let's hope he gets fined for breaking lockdown


----------



## steveseagull (Jun 11, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Let's hope he gets fined for breaking lockdown


I think this is the kindest thing that can be done for him. Durham Police: If you are reading this thread, please do the right thing.


----------



## Calamity1971 (Jun 11, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Let's hope he gets fined for breaking lockdown


And Rayner..


----------



## two sheds (Jun 11, 2022)

There'll only be Corbyn left


----------



## magneze (Jun 11, 2022)

two sheds said:


> There'll only be Corbyn left


Have they let him back in?


----------



## two sheds (Jun 11, 2022)

it won't matter if they've all been banned for partying, he'll have just been at home making jam and scones


----------



## Rob Ray (Jun 12, 2022)

I for one am shocked that the British public hasn't joyously embraced the Critical Continuity candidate even after all that flag shagging, turncoating and denouncing socialists as scumbags. It's almost as though "more of the same except boring" isn't an inspirational position to take ...


----------



## Cerv (Jun 12, 2022)

two sheds said:


> it won't matter if they've all been banned for partying, he'll have just been at home making jam and scones


Except for the time Corbyn admitted attending a rule-of-six breaching dinner party. 








						Jeremy Corbyn and Stanley Johnson apologise for Covid breaches
					

Former Labour leader and PM’s father caught breaking laws on rule of six and masks




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## TopCat (Jun 12, 2022)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> MORE FLAGS!!!!!


Benefit crackdowns. 
Attack the unions. 
Tax cuts for the rich


----------



## steveseagull (Jun 12, 2022)

So I think  we should be starting to talk about a leadership contest very soon.

Andy Burnham could be a unifier but the Labour Rights (why does that even exist??) would never allow it.

They probably would allow Wes Streeting who is hated by everyone I know that knows him and the wider membership are not too impressed.

So it is likely to be someone on the Labour right who will offer the same turgid nothingness as the current wet dishcloth.


----------



## Knotted (Jun 12, 2022)

Andy Burnham will not be standing in any leadership contests very soon. If and when he finds a way back into parliament then maybe. See also David Milliband and Ruth Davidson as next Tory leader.


----------



## ska invita (Jun 12, 2022)

steveseagull said:


> So I think  we should be starting to talk about a leadership contest very soon.
> 
> Andy Burnham could be a unifier but the Labour Rights (why does that even exist??) would never allow it.
> 
> ...


I'm old enough to remember when Burnham was the right wing candidate


----------



## TopCat (Jun 12, 2022)

ska invita said:


> I'm old enough to remember when Burnham was the right wing candidate


Without him moving an inch.


----------



## killer b (Jun 12, 2022)

When was Andy Burnham the right wing candidate? Other than Corbyn he was the most leftwing candidate in the 2015 field - he was the candidate of the pragmatic soft left wasnt he really?


----------



## ska invita (Jun 12, 2022)

killer b said:


> When was Andy Burnham the right wing candidate? Other than Corbyn he was the most leftwing candidate in the 2015 field - he was the candidate of the pragmatic soft left wasnt he really?


I don't know who precisely the pragmatic soft left are but they sound like the labour right to me!


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jun 12, 2022)

ska invita said:


> I don't know who precisely the pragmatic soft left are but they sound like the labour right to me!



dunno.

are they the ones who take the 'marginally less shit than the tories' approach, rather than 'try and out-tory the tories'?


----------



## ska invita (Jun 12, 2022)

Puddy_Tat said:


> dunno.
> 
> are they the ones who take the 'marginally less shit than the tories' approach, rather than 'try and out-tory the tories'?


The ones with the controls on immigration mugs


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jun 13, 2022)

ska invita said:


> The ones with the controls on immigration mugs



That was Ed Miliband. Who was the 'left wing' candidate to replace Brown.


----------



## steveseagull (Jun 13, 2022)

Keith is under investigation again


----------



## Elpenor (Jun 13, 2022)

More Tory-style behaviour from Starmer


----------



## steveseagull (Jun 13, 2022)

For someone who stand for  honesty and integrity  (and nothing much else) he is certainly getting investigated a lot.

If he clocks up a ten day ban the good people of Holborn and St Pancras can organise a recall petition


----------



## Kaka Tim (Jun 13, 2022)

steveseagull said:


> For someone who stand for  honesty and integrity  (and nothing much else) he is certainly getting investigated a lot.
> 
> If he clocks up a ten day ban the good people of Holborn and St Pancras can organise a recall petition


Andy Burnham on by-election standby...


----------



## Wilf (Jun 13, 2022)

As well as the flag shagging and the neo-liberalism... _as well as_ his obsession with saying they've moved on from Corbyn.... _as well as_ him being the 'architect of Labour's Brexit strategy'...  I'm _still _genuinely surprised how badly he has done.  As johnson descended further into the pit of squelching dishonesty there was a niche there for someone 'solid and honest' or similar.  But he's just fucking awful, not just uninspiring but far worse than that.  He actually looks frightened when he speaks, or there's something going on in the eyes.  Labour had a long way back from 2019, but it's been a fucking field full of open goals since then.  His personal appearances are shocking, not rebuilding or connecting, just standing there looking wooden.

Labour's real problem is they are a handful of points up in the polls, so no real pressure on him.  But any kind of analyst or Labour version of the men in grey suits can see the party has no identity and isn't rebuilding with working class voters. But given that we are not going to get a vote of no confidence in him, there's just about *no scenario for him to be replace before the next election*.

edit: Well, perhaps, if this standards thing goes anywhere, but it's unlikely.


----------



## killer b (Jun 13, 2022)

ska invita said:


> I don't know who precisely the pragmatic soft left are but they sound like the labour right to me!


He was standing in a leadership election which included Liz Kendall and Yvette Cooper: had Corbyn not managed to get through he would easily have been the candidate endorsed by the left of the party and the unions etc.


----------



## oryx (Jun 13, 2022)

steveseagull said:


> Keith is under investigation again



Surprised his admin staff don't keep on top of this - basic error for someone who prides themselves on respectability or whatever (no, I'm not sure what he's supposed to stand for, either).

I'm more shocked that it's £1,416 to watch The Arse play Watford!


----------



## steveseagull (Jun 13, 2022)

oryx said:


> Surprised his admin staff don't keep on top of this - basic error for someone who prides themselves on respectability or whatever (no, I'm not sure what he's supposed to stand for, either).
> 
> I'm more shocked that it's £1,416 to watch The Arse play Watford!


Definitely got his wallet inspected.


----------



## PR1Berske (Jun 13, 2022)




----------



## SpookyFrank (Jun 13, 2022)

oryx said:


> Surprised his admin staff don't keep on top of this - basic error for someone who prides themselves on respectability or whatever (no, I'm not sure what he's supposed to stand for, either).
> 
> I'm more shocked that it's £1,416 to watch The Arse play Watford!



He's not respectable and never has been. Up to his armpits in filth is our Keith.


----------



## steveseagull (Jun 13, 2022)




----------



## bluescreen (Jun 13, 2022)

steveseagull said:


> View attachment 327115


If only he'd had a voice coach early on he might have... 
Oh no he wouldn't.


----------



## Raheem (Jun 14, 2022)

steveseagull said:


> View attachment 327115


"Book royalties of £453."

He should try just selling other people's books on eBay.


----------



## kabbes (Jun 14, 2022)

PR1Berske said:


>



The more I look at that, the more there is to love.  I like the small words floating around, like the simple “bad”.  Somehow, they’re both the funniest and most damning of all.

arsehole


----------



## teqniq (Jun 14, 2022)

Kier Starmer backs Tony Blair's knighthood despite huge backlash - and petition


----------



## andysays (Jun 14, 2022)

PR1Berske said:


>



Can't really make it out on my phone, but has anyone said "forensic"?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 14, 2022)

PR1Berske said:


>



it's far more positive about him than i would have expected


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 14, 2022)

andysays said:


> Can't really make it out on my phone, but has anyone said "forensic"?


that would be a pointless answer


----------



## magneze (Jun 14, 2022)

"Pointless" is also on there.


----------



## kabbes (Jun 14, 2022)

“Beige”
”Insipid”

And possibly my favourite: “na”.  I assume that means “not applicable”, which is the most damning indictment of the man of them all.  He’s just… not applicable.


----------



## ska invita (Jun 14, 2022)

Keir starmer? Na mate


----------



## Cid (Jun 14, 2022)

"Twat"

(the largest of the flat-out insults)


----------



## Cid (Jun 14, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> it's far more positive about him than i would have expected



Johnson (the PM, not the pollster) gets it worse...


----------



## Serge Forward (Jun 14, 2022)

Much as Starmer is a massive twat, to be fair, this was a poll by the Sun. So, it's kind of what you'd expect about any Labour politician from that source.


----------



## Cid (Jun 14, 2022)

kabbes said:


> “Beige”
> ”Insipid”
> 
> And possibly my favourite: “na”.  I assume that means “not applicable”, which is the most damning indictment of the man of them all.  He’s just… not applicable.



I like just plain 'weird' hiding in the bottom right.


----------



## Wilf (Jun 14, 2022)

Serge Forward said:


> Much as Starmer is a massive twat, to be fair, this was a poll by the Sun. So, it's kind of what you'd expect about any Labour politician from that source.


Descends to their level:

*Andy Burham-*

Northern 
Thunderbirds 
Eyebrows


----------



## Cid (Jun 14, 2022)

Serge Forward said:


> Much as Starmer is a massive twat, to be fair, this was a poll by the Sun. So, it's kind of what you'd expect about any Labour politician from that source.



True, but see my post above yours, Johnson comes off a fair bit worse in raw positive/negative. 

e2a: ah, that was for times


----------



## andysays (Jun 14, 2022)

Serge Forward said:


> Much as Starmer is a massive twat, to be fair, this was a poll by the Sun. So, it's kind of what you'd expect about any Labour politician from that source.



It claims to be a "nationally representative sample", rather than, say, a poll of Sun readers.

And a nationally representative sample is likely to be negative about any politician, regardless of party, I would think.


----------



## Cid (Jun 14, 2022)

I think we can say with confidence this has been a nice little earner for Johnson (the pollster, not the PM).


----------



## two sheds (Jun 14, 2022)

Wilf said:


> Descends to their level:
> 
> *Andy Burham-*
> 
> ...


Descends to their level: 

*The sun*

Scum
Liars
Cunts


----------



## kabbes (Jun 14, 2022)

It’s not the fact that Starmer’s words are negative that’s funny, it’s the specific negative words that are used. It completely nails him down. I think if you just saw the word cloud, you’d guess the right person


----------



## magneze (Jun 14, 2022)

Cid said:


> Johnson (the PM, not the pollster) gets it worse...



I disagree - Starmer's is worse.


----------



## Cid (Jun 14, 2022)

magneze said:


> I disagree - Starmer's is worse.



I'm repeating what the poll guy said; 72% negative for Johnson, 50% for Starmer. That may be something like overall opinion on call rather than a breakdown of the word <forgets what that kind of word plot is called>.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 14, 2022)

you'd think they'd have to allow at least 22% for people who've net heard of him.


----------



## twistedAM (Jun 14, 2022)

magneze said:


> I disagree - Starmer's is worse.



Yes. Say you're in a pub and there's only two regulars in here. One is a liar, the other a bore. If you had to converse with one it'd be the liar wouldn't it cos at least they are entertaining. And the great British electorate want to entertained I guess.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 14, 2022)

twistedAM said:


> Yes. Say you're in a pub and there's only two regulars in here. One is a liar, the other a bore. If you had to converse with one it'd be the liar wouldn't it cos at least they are entertaining. And the great British electorate want to entertained I guess.


as saki pointed out more than a hundred years ago Short Stories: A Defensive Diamond by Saki


----------



## killer b (Jun 14, 2022)

I'd stare at my phone until someone less awful arrived tbh


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 14, 2022)

twistedAM said:


> Yes. Say you're in a pub and there's only two regulars in here. One is a liar, the other a bore. If you had to converse with one it'd be the liar wouldn't it cos at least they are entertaining. And the great British electorate want to entertained I guess.


the collapse of the liar ought to be spectacular whereas bores just maunder on


----------



## JimW (Jun 14, 2022)

killer b said:


> I'd stare at my phone until someone less awful arrived tbh


Insert Nu Lie-bore joke.


----------



## hash tag (Jun 14, 2022)

I am not boring Stop calling me boring, Keir Starmer tells shadow cabinet


----------



## killer b (Jun 14, 2022)

hash tag said:


> I am not boring Stop calling me boring, Keir Starmer tells shadow cabinet


even the guardian is taking the piss. it's all over.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 14, 2022)

hash tag said:


> I am not boring Stop calling me boring, Keir Starmer tells shadow cabinet





> Several of those around the table then echoed their leader’s calls for unity and discretion, in a lengthy exchange described by one shadow frontbencher as “ironically very boring”.


----------



## steeplejack (Jun 14, 2022)

Durham police would do us all a favour by issuing a FPN and obliging the droning beige chasm of emptiness to resign.

Would be a nice circularity, his leadership starts by being ignored by teenagers on Hartlepool seafront, and ended by Sergeant Lewis (Community beat officer, St. Helen Auckland).


----------



## PR1Berske (Jun 14, 2022)




----------



## steveseagull (Jun 14, 2022)

Keith delivered a boring rant about how fucked off he is with his shadow cabinet members telling the press he is fucking boring









						Stop calling me boring, Keir Starmer tells shadow cabinet
					

Labour leader urges colleagues to focus on returning to government, after a string of negative stories




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## oryx (Jun 14, 2022)

steveseagull said:


> Keith delivered a boring rant about how fucked off he is with his shadow cabinet members telling the press he is fucking boring
> 
> 
> 
> ...





> Several of those around the table then echoed their leader’s calls for unity and discretion, in a lengthy exchange described by one shadow frontbencher as “ironically very boring”.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jun 14, 2022)

an un-named member of the shadow cabinet said "... zzz"


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 14, 2022)




----------



## steeplejack (Jun 14, 2022)

The39thStep said:


>




The coming Starm?

If it's the FPN notice, more like the coming Yarm


----------



## Leighsw2 (Jun 14, 2022)

The39thStep said:


>



What's interesting about this graphic is that it does demonstrate the extraordinary level of media/pundit support that Starmer has had. In fact, more than any Labour Leader since Blair in 1994. Despite that, the public seem to have completely worked him out. Coincidental I imagine, but his fall from grace with the voters seems to have occurred since around the time of his cynical exclusion of Corbyn from the PLP at the back end of 2020.


----------



## Calamity1971 (Jun 15, 2022)

How desperate are people that starmer is the answer? Call him kieth and she blocks you. I used to think she was okay.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 15, 2022)

I'm surprised he's not more often called Rodney. Surprised she blocks you for that though, she does make some good vids.


----------



## Knotted (Jun 15, 2022)

TBH boring's not a bad trait in a politician. This personal brand stuff is not the reason Labour are failing.


----------



## killer b (Jun 15, 2022)

two sheds said:


> she does make some good vids.


she does not


----------



## Johnny Vodka (Jun 15, 2022)

At least he can have a new song to come on to.


----------



## muscovyduck (Jun 15, 2022)

Knotted said:


> TBH boring's not a bad trait in a politician. This personal brand stuff is not the reason Labour are failing.


It's funny because they were all throwing the criticism at Jeremy Corbyn that his personal brand wasn't relatable because he had an allotment or whatever, but part of what made him popular was that he let his actual "boring" personality shine through and didn't try to be the lowest common denominator flag shagging man in a suit


----------



## ska invita (Jun 15, 2022)

muscovyduck said:


> It's funny because they were all throwing the criticism at Jeremy Corbyn that his personal brand wasn't relatable because he had an allotment or whatever, but part of what made him popular was that he let his actual "boring" personality shine through and didn't try to be the lowest common denominator flag shagging man in a suit


criticism of Corbyn was strictly political
what make Starmer boring is he is_ boring politically_


----------



## Knotted (Jun 15, 2022)

ska invita said:


> criticism of Corbyn was strictly political
> what make Starmer boring is he is_ boring politically_



His political instincts are to outflank the Tories from the right. This doesn't make him boring, it makes him dangerous. I think he's actually going for deceptively boring as a brand.


----------



## Raheem (Jun 15, 2022)

Knotted said:


> His political instincts are to outflank the Tories from the right. This doesn't make him boring, it makes him dangerous. I think he's actually going for deceptively boring as a brand.


I don't think Starmer's type of boring can be used as an asset. Boring as in serious, maybe. But Starmer is boring as in dull. He could be telling you you'd won the lottery and you'd zone out.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jun 15, 2022)

Knotted said:


> TBH boring's not a bad trait in a politician. This personal brand stuff is not the reason Labour are failing.



Init. Clement Attlee was boring, but he left us with an NHS and a welfare state.


----------



## Chilli.s (Jun 15, 2022)

he could be boring and still engage with actual opposition of the tories, something he seems incapable of doing

he could actually have some policies that are real ideas not wait and see, boring would not be a problem


----------



## Wilf (Jun 15, 2022)

SpookyFrank said:


> Init. Clement Attlee was boring, but he left us with an NHS and a welfare state.


Exactly the comparison I was thinking of.

You can be dull but seek to engage with people.  Starmer's attempts at talking to people on the campaign trail are awful, worse than Theresa May's attempt at eating chips.  Not just a dull no impact, a negative impact.  And his political strategy of re-engaging working class areas is, well, what is it? I don't know, something to do with flags? Considerably worse than Ed Miliband, personally and, by a country mile, politically.


----------



## steveseagull (Jun 15, 2022)

I challenge any of you to watch this video and still claim he is boring...


----------



## kabbes (Jun 15, 2022)

steveseagull said:


> I challenge any of you to watch this video and still claim he is boring...



Fuck me he can’t tell an anecdote to save his life, can he?


----------



## killer b (Jun 15, 2022)

ouch


----------



## killer b (Jun 15, 2022)

funny that here we are a week after Johnson's VONC and it's Starmer seemingly in a death spiral


----------



## two sheds (Jun 15, 2022)

kabbes said:


> Fuck me he can’t tell an anecdote to save his life, can he?


That was the best bit


----------



## steveseagull (Jun 15, 2022)

kabbes said:


> Fuck me he can’t tell an anecdote to save his life, can he?


He also told the same anecdote in a interview with Nick Ferrari when he was accused of being boring some time back, and it was just  as bad.


----------



## srb7677 (Jun 15, 2022)

steveseagull said:


> I challenge any of you to watch this video and still claim he is boring...



He is boring.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jun 15, 2022)

killer b said:


> ouch
> 
> View attachment 327377
> 
> View attachment 327378



Hate to give Johnson any credit for anything but that's a 10/10 burn on Starmer there. He really is fucking hopeless.


----------



## steveseagull (Jun 15, 2022)

Dawn Butler has gone for him


----------



## steveseagull (Jun 15, 2022)

So has Iain Dale lol


----------



## steveseagull (Jun 15, 2022)

SpookyFrank said:


> Hate to give Johnson any credit for anything but that's a 10/10 burn on Starmer there. He really is fucking hopeless.


Yep, totally self inflicted burn. I think his team are hard trolling him.


----------



## oryx (Jun 15, 2022)

steveseagull said:


> Dawn Butler has gone for him



Great letter. Well said, Dawn Butler.


----------



## teqniq (Jun 15, 2022)

Calamity1971 said:


> How desperate are people that starmer is the answer? Call him kieth and she blocks you. I used to think she was okay.



She blocked me for saying what was to her unkind things about David Lammy. I can't say I miss her really.


----------



## steveseagull (Jun 16, 2022)

teqniq said:


> She blocked me for saying what was to her unkind things about David Lammy. I can't say I miss her really.



I am blocked too for pointing out her middle class sneering at northern people. Her audience seems to be horny centrist dad types who go giddy with excitement over Marina Hyde articles and think portmanteau swear words like 'Twatlantis' are really really cool and clever.


----------



## ruffneck23 (Jun 16, 2022)

Yeah I admit getting caught up in the supertanksi fandom, thought the tory swearing was quite funny.

Then she started becoming more centrist and then slagging off the more lefty posters and turning on people who supported Corbyn. 

I dared to say that Starmer needs to be squeaky clean and a load of these centrist dad types started calling me a Tory enabler because I dared to question Starmer's integrity.

So now I dont really care for her and her acolytes.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 16, 2022)

Calamity1971 said:


> How desperate are people that starmer is the answer? Call him kieth and she blocks you. I used to think she was okay.



If shammer is the answer you should check the question


----------



## Whagwan (Jun 16, 2022)

She's had me blocked for a while.  Has some vile fans:



And some nice sneering at northerners here:


----------



## steveseagull (Jun 16, 2022)

Aside from the sneering, this tends to be the general output of centrist 'political satirists' these days. probably less funny than Matt Forde if that is possible.


----------



## PR1Berske (Jun 16, 2022)




----------



## hitmouse (Jun 16, 2022)

kabbes said:


> The more I look at that, the more there is to love.  I like the small words floating around, like the simple “bad”.  Somehow, they’re both the funniest and most damning of all.
> 
> arsehole


So many gems in there, like "prat" and "pratt" both making it in, the undeniably accurate "sir", and the people who, desperately trying to think of anything at all they associate the substanceless twat with, ended up just picking



steveseagull said:


> I challenge any of you to watch this video and still claim he is boring...



Strong Uncle Colm vibes there:


----------



## elbows (Jun 16, 2022)

I assume the boring stuff is why we ended up with Starmer desperately going on about Jedi mind tricks and Jabba the Hutt the other day.


----------



## magneze (Jun 18, 2022)

Maybe I've been in Covid jail too long but I'm finding this video interesting and informative:


Especially the bit on Starmer as Brexit Secretary where apparently he fucks up a potential soft Brexit deal and so we end up where we are now.


----------



## Thesaint (Jun 18, 2022)

So who would be able to replace him as an option?
Ultimately his opposite number, Boris is still in his job only because there's no obvious replacement within his own party.


----------



## Serge Forward (Jun 19, 2022)

Thesaint said:


> So who would be able to replace him as an option?
> Ultimately his opposite number, Boris is still in his job only because there's no obvious replacement within his own party.


Johnson. He's not your mate.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 19, 2022)

Thesaint said:


> So who would be able to replace him as an option?
> Ultimately his opposite number, Boris is still in his job only because there's no obvious replacement within his own party.


And obviously only the obvious will do


----------



## Knotted (Jun 19, 2022)

I think it's very unlikely that Starmer is going anywhere, but if he does its probably going to be Streeting who takes over. Ignoring the ridiculous hype about him, there isn't really an alternative. Nandy is a loose cannon, if Starmer is gone so is Rayner, Reeves is a nonentity, Thornberry is the only real talent but I don't think she has much of a base in the party, Burnham is not an MP, could I just say again - Burnham is not an MP. It would be fun if somebody like Burgon won a leadership contest, but I think the parliamentary party have learnt to not nominate leftwingers to "promote debate", it's just not going to happen again. So new new Labour it is.


----------



## Chilli.s (Jun 19, 2022)

Thesaint said:


> So who would be able to replace him as an option?


Zara Sultana


----------



## platinumsage (Jun 19, 2022)

Thesaint said:


> So who would be able to replace him as an option?
> Ultimately his opposite number, Boris is still in his job only because there's no obvious replacement within his own party.



Yesterday the Mail ran these two stories side-by-side:


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jun 19, 2022)

Chilli.s said:


> Zara Sultana



There aren't enough lefties left (sorry) in the PLP to allow Sultana or anyone similar to even get on the ticket for a leadership contest. It's possible Rayner has only been pretending to be a boot boy for the labour right so that she can sneak into the top job and then reveal herself to be a socialist after all, but that very slim possibility is also exactly why the PLP won't let her get anywhere near the leadership either.

e2a: Starmer's goons in the NEC have also been working to get Sultana deselected by her local party IIRC.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jun 19, 2022)

Have a quick google of Zara Sultana and see how much dirt the tabloids have already thrown at her. If you think they went in two-footed on Corbyn, just imagine how they'd treat a young, female, non-white person in his position.


----------



## Boris Sprinkler (Jun 19, 2022)




----------



## Thesaint (Jun 19, 2022)

Boris Sprinkler said:


> View attachment 327937


Aha...who spotted the spelling mistake on that tin?


----------



## Boris Sprinkler (Jun 19, 2022)

I c+p'd from reddit.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 19, 2022)

Thesaint said:


> Aha...who spotted the spelling mistake on that tin?


I thought you meant 'sitting'


----------



## agricola (Jun 19, 2022)

Knotted said:


> I think it's very unlikely that Starmer is going anywhere, but if he does its probably going to be Streeting who takes over. Ignoring the ridiculous hype about him, there isn't really an alternative. Nandy is a loose cannon, if Starmer is gone so is Rayner, Reeves is a nonentity, Thornberry is the only real talent but I don't think she has much of a base in the party, Burnham is not an MP, could I just say again - Burnham is not an MP. It would be fun if somebody like Burgon won a leadership contest, but I think the parliamentary party have learnt to not nominate leftwingers to "promote debate", it's just not going to happen again. So new new Labour it is.



Wes Streeting?  The man is the very last squeezings of a thirty-year-old tube of toothpaste which was unpleasant and completely ineffective at the time, never mind now.  John Woodcock would have more chance of becoming the next Labour PM than him.


----------



## srb7677 (Jun 19, 2022)

Knotted said:


> I think it's very unlikely that Starmer is going anywhere, but if he does its probably going to be Streeting who takes over. Ignoring the ridiculous hype about him, there isn't really an alternative. Nandy is a loose cannon, if Starmer is gone so is Rayner, Reeves is a nonentity, Thornberry is the only real talent but I don't think she has much of a base in the party, Burnham is not an MP, could I just say again - Burnham is not an MP. It would be fun if somebody like Burgon won a leadership contest, but I think the parliamentary party have learnt to not nominate leftwingers to "promote debate", it's just not going to happen again. So new new Labour it is.


Which is why Labour is widely regarded as a lost cause by the British left, and why we won't back or vote for it. And it is unlikely to win over enough Tories to make up the difference.

Since my time in the party I have gotten to know many on the local left. And it is not just those who joined under Miliband and Corbyn who have left in disgust but lifelong members who had been there for decades. In the last local elections they had to post leaflets via Royal Mail because they no longer had the volunteers to deliver them by hand. Hardly anyone in my ward saw any kind of Labour canvasser. Even the local candidate barely showed up.


----------



## prunus (Jun 19, 2022)

srb7677 said:


> Which is why Labour is widely regarded as a lost cause by the British left, and why we won't back or vote for it. And it is unlikely to win over enough Tories to make up the difference.
> 
> Since my time in the party I have gotten to know many on the local left. And it is not just those who joined under Miliband and Corbyn who have left in disgust but lifelong members who had been there for decades. In the last local elections they had to post leaflets via Royal Mail because they no longer had the volunteers to deliver them by hand. Hardly anyone in my ward saw any kind of Labour canvasser. Even the local candidate barely showed up.



I’m a life-long member, but haven’t yet left in disgust. I understand the sentiments being expressed, but what I don’t know is what is the proposed solution (following on from abandoning the Labour Party) that doesn’t result in the country being trashed by decades of Tory rule?


----------



## Chilli.s (Jun 19, 2022)

Boris Sprinkler said:


> View attachment 327937


  said to have a nasty blue tint


----------



## srb7677 (Jun 19, 2022)

prunus said:


> I’m a life-long member, but haven’t yet left in disgust. I understand the sentiments being expressed, but what I don’t know is what is the proposed solution (following on from abandoning the Labour Party) that doesn’t result in the country being trashed by decades of Tory rule?


The problem is that Labour has ceased to have any possibility of being a vehicle for meaningful change, and voting for them anyway just encourages them in that failure.

There are only two possibilities. Either New Labour itself performs so disastrously that the party itself feels a need to head in a new more progressive direction. And to encourage that we need to not vote for it. Or else the only real hope of change is destroy and replace it, however long it takes. And to encourage that we need to not vote for it but find alternatives. 

There are enough of us out there who recognise this to ensure no majority Labour government. And if the price of Labour forming a minority government or coalition is PR, then that will change everything going forwards.


----------



## Rob Ray (Jun 19, 2022)

Every Blair, Brown and Starmer supports the idea that the system can only go in one direction, thus acting as destroyers of social rebellion. Their presence is a ratchet (not to say a racket), either in or out of power. The Tories trash, Labour maintain and confirm the new status quo, then the Tories trash some more. And all the while, the power of the ballot box to change things is simultaneously promoted while manifestly not doing so. To butcher a good line:

Self-serving stasis, for reactionaries, is whatever decreases the confidence, the autonomy, the initiative, the participation, the solidarity, the equalitarian tendencies and the self-activity of the masses and whatever aids in their continued mystification. The ideal action is whatever reinforces the passivity of the masses, their apathy, their cynicism, their differentiation through hierarchy, their alienation, their reliance on others to do things for them and the degree to which they can therefore be manipulated by others.

Elections to a tee.


----------



## Calamity1971 (Jun 19, 2022)




----------



## elbows (Jun 20, 2022)




----------



## steveseagull (Jun 20, 2022)

Starmer is a scab.


----------



## steveseagull (Jun 20, 2022)

Two footed tackle from Di. Love it.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jun 20, 2022)

'politics home' is reporting that labour front bench have been ordered not to turn out on any picket lines


----------



## YouSir (Jun 20, 2022)

Puddy_Tat said:


> 'politics home' is reporting that labour front bench have been ordered not to turn out on any picket lines



Tbf how many of them would be welcome at this point? The likes of Wes Streeting have shown that even mild support will be immediately stepped back in deference to the Daily Mail and geriatric Tories.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jun 20, 2022)

YouSir said:


> The likes of Wes Streeting have shown that even mild support will be immediately stepped back in deference to the Daily Mail and geriatric Tories.



I'm not quite clear whether he made that decision or whether he was told to...


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jun 20, 2022)

Puddy_Tat said:


> I'm not quite clear whether he made that decision or whether he was told to...



Makes no odds does it. He's exactly as much use to working folk either way.


----------



## steeplejack (Jun 20, 2022)

You know a leadership is entering its carrion stage when a floating voter in Wakefield calls for Dan Jarvis to become leader.

Shur Kieth unfortunately comes across as a voter-repellant oddball even in the most favorable of electoral circumstances. As awkward as itching powder in a mediavel suit of armour, and with all the genuineness of a spam caller's opening gambit on loft insulation.


----------



## Calamity1971 (Jun 20, 2022)

Someone needs to take one for the team, I got ten seconds in. Christ.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 20, 2022)

Calamity1971 said:


> Someone needs to take one for the team, I got ten seconds in. Christ.



That's hardcore


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jun 20, 2022)

Calamity1971 said:


> Someone needs to take one for the team, I got ten seconds in. Christ.


----------



## Calamity1971 (Jun 20, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> That's hardcore


Or rousing. He certainly whipped up the crowd the 10 seconds I watched.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 20, 2022)

he kept well clear of any policies - keep things safe


----------



## srb7677 (Jun 20, 2022)

Calamity1971 said:


> Someone needs to take one for the team, I got ten seconds in. Christ.



I watched the entire minute and 18 seconds.

Wish I'd used that time to do something more constructive like taking a dump or having a wank.

I don't buy into this guy at all. A proven liar pretending to be a man of integrity, an establishmentarian defender of the status quo, and all with the charisma of a rocking horse.


----------



## PR1Berske (Jun 20, 2022)

srb7677 said:


> I watched the entire minute and 18 seconds.
> 
> Wish I'd used that time to do something more constructive like taking a dump or having a wank.
> 
> I don't buy into this guy at all. A proven liar pretending to be a man of integrity, an establishmentarian defender of the status quo, and all with the charisma of a rocking horse.


That'd be an easier shit than a wank!


----------



## kabbes (Jun 20, 2022)

Don’t knock having a dump. Sometimes taking a shit is the most productive thing I do all day.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 21, 2022)

Calamity1971 said:


> Or rousing. He certainly whipped up the crowd the 10 seconds I watched.


No, being able to stand that shit for ten seconds is hardcore


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 21, 2022)

srb7677 said:


> I watched the entire minute and 18 seconds.
> 
> Wish I'd used that time to do something more constructive like taking a dump or having a wank.
> 
> I don't buy into this guy at all. A proven liar pretending to be a man of integrity, an establishmentarian defender of the status quo, and all with the charisma of a rocking horse.


Many rocking horses have more charisma than that


----------



## Sue (Jun 21, 2022)

"Leadership' 









						Keir Starmer tells Labour frontbench they should not join rail strike pickets
					

Unions critical of leader’s instruction to senior MPs to ‘show leadership’ by not publicly siding with workers




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## srb7677 (Jun 21, 2022)

Sue said:


> "Leadership'
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The establishmentarian stooge.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 21, 2022)

Sue said:


> "Leadership'
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Bit like the Kinnock version of Abba's holograph show.


----------



## srb7677 (Jun 21, 2022)




----------



## Calamity1971 (Jun 21, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> No, being able to stand that shit for ten seconds is hardcore


Oh, I took it for sarcasm.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 21, 2022)

steveseagull said:


> Two footed tackle from Di. Love it.



saw diane abbott (and jeremy corbyn) on the tuc march on saturday.


----------



## Chilli.s (Jun 21, 2022)

Always nice to see someone with principles, that stick to their principles, that are clear what their principles are

unlike the current LP


----------



## steveseagull (Jun 21, 2022)




----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jun 21, 2022)

Shadow ministers urge Starmer to start picking new candidate for Corbyn’s seat
					

At least two frontbenchers have said Labour should not support former leader’s candidacy at next election




					www.theguardian.com
				




This is bound to go well.


----------



## tommers (Jun 21, 2022)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> Shadow ministers urge Starmer to start picking new candidate for Corbyn’s seat
> 
> 
> At least two frontbenchers have said Labour should not support former leader’s candidacy at next election
> ...


How can he be a candidate if he's banned from the party? Isn't he independent?


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jun 21, 2022)

tommers said:


> How can he be a candidate if he's banned from the party? Isn't he independent?



Well at the moment he's an MP, not a candidate for anything. But yeah if he's still banned when getting towards the next election it obviously makes sense they'll need to pick a new candidate. 

I just look forward to them totally fucking it up though.


----------



## killer b (Jun 21, 2022)

The party has to either readmit him or run someone else, and I guess they're probably going to leave having that particular fight until they really need to have it. I actually doubt they'll move on it until the next election is called


----------



## tommers (Jun 21, 2022)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> Well at the moment he's an MP, not a candidate for anything. But yeah if he's still banned when getting towards the next election it obviously makes sense they'll need to pick a new candidate.
> 
> I just look forward to them totally fucking it up though.


Oh yeah. It will be funny.


----------



## steeplejack (Jun 21, 2022)

Yep Corbyn to romp home in Islington as an independent, against Starmer-Labour's official PPC, Sebastian Flyte, who's hoping to have a brief respite from sacking people with PWC, to indulge his politics hobby for a few years


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 21, 2022)

steeplejack said:


> Yep Corbyn to romp home in Islington as an independent, against Starmer-Labour's official PPC, Sebastian Flyte, who's hoping to have a brief respite from sacking people with PWC, to indulge his politics hobby for a few years


aloysius would do better than sf, he knows where the bodies are buried


----------



## steeplejack (Jun 21, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> aloysius would do better than sf, he knows where the bodies are buried
> 
> View attachment 328312



The Stieffen bear might win over some of the instagram generation who might otherwise vote Tory, but JC will still romp home.


----------



## belboid (Jun 21, 2022)

tommers said:


> How can he be a candidate if he's banned from the party? Isn't he independent?


He isn’t banned from the party, he was reinstated ages ago.  He is suspended from the parliamentary group so doesn’t sit as Labour.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 21, 2022)

belboid said:


> He isn’t banned from the party, he was reinstated ages ago.  He is suspended from the parliamentary group so doesn’t sit as Labour.


it's the wisdom of shammeron


----------



## srb7677 (Jun 21, 2022)

belboid said:


> He isn’t banned from the party, he was reinstated ages ago.  He is suspended from the parliamentary group so doesn’t sit as Labour.


Without the whip he cannot stand as a Labour MP. So either he will have to stand as an Independent against the Labour candidate, for which he will be expelled. Or he would have to stand down as a condition of remaining in the party. Without the whip he cannot stand as an MP and remain a party member. He will have to choose between party or constituency.

Because he is getting on a bit there is the possibility that he might decide it is time to retire anyway, but I hope he stands and fights as an independent.


----------



## steveseagull (Jun 21, 2022)

They have two options here

1) take on the chin the wrath from the Board of Deputies, blue tick centrist grifters and the Tory headbangers in the Jewish Labour Movement.

or 

2) Run someone against Corbyn, lose Labour the seat and have this the main story of the entire election campaign.

They will go for option 2.


----------



## killer b (Jun 21, 2022)

It won't be the main story of the entire election though, it'll be a fun diversion for politics nerds, nothing more.


----------



## elbows (Jun 21, 2022)

killer b said:


> It won't be the main story of the entire election though, it'll be a fun diversion for politics nerds, nothing more.


It may resemble Frank Dobson mayoral race deja vu.


----------



## killer b (Jun 21, 2022)

I imagine so - but to imagine it'll be anything more than a footnote in the election campaign is a bit silly.


----------



## magneze (Jun 21, 2022)

Would Corbyn run against Labour? I don't think that's a given either.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Jun 21, 2022)

Man's gone against the whip more times than I've had hot dinners. He wouldn't think twice about it.


----------



## belboid (Jun 21, 2022)

magneze said:


> Would Corbyn run against Labour? I don't think that's a given either.


At the drop of a (Russian) hat


----------



## Wilf (Jun 21, 2022)

killer b said:


> I imagine so - but to imagine it'll be anything more than a footnote in the election campaign is a bit silly.


'Footnote Plus', perhaps, particularly if the local party executive back Corbyn, get suspended etc.


----------



## Sue (Jun 21, 2022)

belboid said:


> At the drop of a (Russian) hat


(Vegan fur) Russian hat.


----------



## killer b (Jun 21, 2022)

Wilf said:


> 'Footnote Plus', perhaps, particularly if the local party executive back Corbyn, get suspended etc.


Not unless a load of other Labour MPs go with him, but I can't think of any (other than maybe Abbott?) who would have enough of a personal vote to risk it. Without that a single ex-Labour MP standing as an independent will disappear almost completely under the news juggernaut of the actual general election, even if it's Corbyn.


----------



## steveseagull (Jun 21, 2022)

Wilf said:


> 'Footnote Plus', perhaps, particularly if the local party executive back Corbyn, get suspended etc.


Quite


----------



## andysays (Jun 21, 2022)

srb7677 said:


> *Without the whip he cannot stand as a Labour MP*. So either he will have to stand as an Independent against the Labour candidate, for which he will be expelled. Or he would have to stand down as a condition of remaining in the party. Without the whip he cannot stand as an MP and remain a party member. He will have to choose between party or constituency.
> 
> Because he is getting on a bit there is the possibility that he might decide it is time to retire anyway, but I hope he stands and fights as an independent.



Are you sure about this?

You don't actually get the whip until you become an MP, Labour or otherwise, because it only applies to being a member of the parliamentary party, at least that's my understanding of what the term means.

Anyone standing as a candidate to become an MP for the first time can't, by definition, have the whip when they stand.

But whatever the precise details of the procedures, it looks likely to cause at least some controversy and further damage to the Labour party, even if (and it pains me to write this) killer b is right that it will ultimately be a footnote to the overall election.


----------



## teqniq (Jun 21, 2022)

I can imagine a scenario where if Labour field a candidate in Islington to stand against Corbyn the right-wing press will leverage it to use as a stick to beat Labour with, particularly if the vermin are looking bad in the polls. And, if Corbyn is allowed to stand as a Labour MP in his own right, they will leverage that too, so probably damned if they do and damned if they don't.


----------



## Wilf (Jun 21, 2022)

andysays said:


> Are you sure about this?
> 
> You don't actually get the whip until you become an MP, Labour or otherwise, because it only applies to being a member of the parliamentary party, at least that's my understanding of what the term means.
> 
> ...


I suspect they won't allow someone who has the whip removed to be selected.  Won't shortlists have to be ratified, perhaps by the regional party? *

Edit: no idea whether it's still the regional party tbh, it's decades since I was anywhere near the Labour Party.


----------



## srb7677 (Jun 21, 2022)

andysays said:


> Are you sure about this?
> 
> You don't actually get the whip until you become an MP, Labour or otherwise, because it only applies to being a member of the parliamentary party, at least that's my understanding of what the term means.
> 
> ...


I used to be in the Labour Party. This was how the rules were understood and explained to us.

Although a different party, it worked that way for the Tories. Those who had the whip withdrawn were forced out of parliament.

This backs that up as well as suggesting they are thinking of a replacement for him....









						Labour line up candidate to take on Corbyn in Islington North
					

The former leader is reportedly considering establishing his own political party after accepting he will never be reinstated as a Labour MP.




					www.thelondoneconomic.com


----------



## andysays (Jun 21, 2022)

srb7677 said:


> I used to be in the Labour Party. This was how the rules were understood and explained to us.
> 
> Although a different party, it worked that way for the Tories. Those who had the whip withdrawn were forced out of parliament.
> 
> ...



OK, maybe I'm splitting hairs, but "after having had the whip withdrawn" isn't quite the same, IMO, as "without the whip".

But on the substantive point, I agree than unless he has the whip restored in the meantime, he isn't going to be able to stand as a Labour candidate at the next election.

And if that's going to happen, it actually makes sense for whoever's responsible to appoint a future candidate now rather than leave it until the eleventh hour.


----------



## Cerv (Jun 21, 2022)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> Shadow ministers urge Starmer to start picking new candidate for Corbyn’s seat
> 
> 
> At least two frontbenchers have said Labour should not support former leader’s candidacy at next election
> ...


article makes no mention of the redrawn constituency boundaries. those will be in effect if the election is after summer 2023.

final version is yet to be published later this year (IIRC). so can't say for certain what's happening yet. 
but big changes in this corner of North London if I recall.

I suspect they'll be waiting to see what happens with that. if e.g. Corbyn's in a situation of having to run against Abbott then Starmer's problem might solve itself.


----------



## killer b (Jun 21, 2022)

andysays said:


> , it actually makes sense for whoever's responsible to appoint a future candidate now rather than leave it until the eleventh hour.


Disagree with this - it makes more sense for it to be left til the last minute: Corbyn may be a busted flush, but he's still got a large following and the ability to surprise - booting him definitely now risks some left wing TIG type affair organising around him which would be unlikely to win more than a seat or two, but would defo fuck Labour's chances in a load of marginals. Leave it til an election is called and that doesn't happen, or its effects are at least muted.


----------



## andysays (Jun 21, 2022)

killer b said:


> Disagree with this - it makes more sense for it to be left til the last minute: Corbyn may be a busted flush, but he's still got a large following and the ability to surprise - booting him definitely now risks some left wing TIG type affair organising around him which would be unlikely to win more than a seat or two, but would defo fuck Labour's chances in a load of marginals. Leave it til an election is called and that doesn't happen, or its effects are at least muted.


I get what you're saying, but I suspect the risk of a genuine left split from Labour is so unlikely as to be not worth anyone worrying about. 

I may be wrong of course, and I'm only a disinterested observer rather than being that concerned either way.


----------



## PR1Berske (Jun 21, 2022)

To stand as a candidate for a registered party, you need the signature of that party's nominating officer, something Corbyn can only get if a lot of humble pie is served and eaten, not necessarily in equal portions, on both sides.

The perennial rumours about Eddie Izzard standing in Islington have started up again, which would certainly make for a comedy alongside the drama.


----------



## Raheem (Jun 21, 2022)

Whatever the consequence of replacing Corbyn is, it's surely going to be more of a problem to have it peaking closer to an election. 

That said, I think this story is more about shadow cabinet leaking. There are clearly some in there who think they could do a much better job (low bar).


----------



## Leighsw2 (Jun 21, 2022)

skyscraper101 said:


> Man's gone against the whip more times than I've had hot dinners. He wouldn't think twice about it.


Shows how little you know the man.....


----------



## Leighsw2 (Jun 21, 2022)

magneze said:


> Would Corbyn run against Labour? I don't think that's a given either.


Don't underestimate his loyalty to the Labour party (which, despite what some people may think, is not the same as the Parliamentary party or leadership). He's spent his entire adult life in Labour, stayed with it through thick and thin (mostly the latter after the Blairites took over) and, like many of his generation, is very invested in the ideal of the 'labour movement'. Ultimately his downfall (in my view), but there you are. I think he's more likely to retire than stand as an independent, demonstrating a great deal more integrity than the lickspittle right-wing bastards who sabotaged his leadership.


----------



## killer b (Jun 21, 2022)

andysays said:


> I get what you're saying, but I suspect the risk of a genuine left split from Labour is so unlikely as to be not worth anyone worrying about.
> 
> I may be wrong of course, and I'm only a disinterested observer rather than being that concerned either way.


I don't really care either tbf: and maybe Corbyn's Peace & Justice Party with a year or two to get it's act together wouldn't be any kind of threat, but I can understand why Labour aren't willing to risk it.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jun 21, 2022)




----------



## teqniq (Jun 22, 2022)

Shabby as fuck:









						Labour frontbenchers who joined rail strike pickets pressed to apologise
					

MPs who defied Keir Starmer’s order to stay away from striking RMT workers may be disciplined for attendance




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Chilli.s (Jun 22, 2022)

A flakey, unprincipled, opportunist ol' keith

well maybe not opportunist, he always misses any opportunity in the house


----------



## TopCat (Jun 22, 2022)

srb7677 said:


> The problem is that Labour has ceased to have any possibility of being a vehicle for meaningful change, and voting for them anyway just encourages them in that failure.
> 
> There are only two possibilities. Either New Labour itself performs so disastrously that the party itself feels a need to head in a new more progressive direction. And to encourage that we need to not vote for it. Or else the only real hope of change is destroy and replace it, however long it takes. And to encourage that we need to not vote for it but find alternatives.
> 
> There are enough of us out there who recognise this to ensure no majority Labour government. And if the price of Labour forming a minority government or coalition is PR, then that will change everything going forwards.


Are you a Liberal


----------



## two sheds (Jun 22, 2022)

TopCat said:


> Are you a Liberal


But answer came there none— And this was scarcely odd because ...


----------



## PR1Berske (Jun 22, 2022)

Don't know where to put this but as it's a mirror to the state of the current Labour Party maybe it's best in this thread. Statement from the MP for Poplar and Limehouse


----------



## Raheem (Jun 22, 2022)

Starmer's making a bad (and ideologically guided) miscalculation about strikes, I think. He can get away with opposing one strike and denying that he's against strikes in principle. But we're going to have a slew over the next 12 months, and, even in 2022, it's not a line the leader of the Labour party can possibly hold. He's fucking himself.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jun 23, 2022)

Raheem said:


> Starmer's making a bad (and ideologically guided) miscalculation about strikes, I think. He can get away with opposing one strike and denying that he's against strikes in principle. But we're going to have a slew over the next 12 months, and, even in 2022, it's not a line the leader of the Labour party can possibly hold. He's fucking himself.



Come on, think how much leadership he'll have shown after trying to wriggle out of taking any position all year. He'll be super electable.


----------



## Chilli.s (Jun 23, 2022)

He has no chance of being elected


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 23, 2022)

Chilli.s said:


> He has no chance of being elected



His opposite would have to be an even worse shit than he is


----------



## steveseagull (Jun 23, 2022)

The Tory's wedge issue appears to have wedged Starmer out of any relevance whatsoever. The left now appear to be organising outside the Labour Party headed by a bloke who not many people had heard of a week ago. I would imagine trade union membership and engagement has gone through the roof over the last week.

Emily Thornberry was completely sidelined on Peston last night and was sat there nodding along to Lynch destroying "Honest" Bob Jenrick and hardly got a look in. Clear and concise explanations on how the Tories are funnelling all this country's money into the pockets of the wealthy.

Starmer's Blairite handlers would never allow him to engage in such heresy (outside getting him installed as leader) and he now finds himself out of touch with public opinion and party members. I can imagine how much the Blairites detest Lynch for showing them up for who they are (much like Corbyn did).

So, what is the point of Keir Starmer's Labour Party?


----------



## Whagwan (Jun 23, 2022)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> Come on, think how much leadership he'll have shown after trying to wriggle out of taking any position all year. He'll be super electable.


Super serious, super electable.


----------



## steveseagull (Jun 23, 2022)

Serious stuff


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 23, 2022)

This time it's serious


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jun 23, 2022)

Raheem said:


> Starmer's making a bad (and ideologically guided) miscalculation about strikes, I think. He can get away with opposing one strike and denying that he's against strikes in principle. But we're going to have a slew over the next 12 months, and, even in 2022, it's not a line the leader of the Labour party can possibly hold. He's fucking himself.



He might seem like a man with no principles or ideology at all but he's not. He truly hates any kind of direct action. He believes in doing everything by the book even though he must know the book was itself written by criminals. It's a shit ideology, but it's there alright.


----------



## steveseagull (Jun 23, 2022)

Why waste you money on the Labour Party subs?


----------



## Chilli.s (Jun 23, 2022)

Everyone I know who joined under Corbies time have refused to renew subs


----------



## two sheds (Jun 23, 2022)

SpookyFrank said:


> He might seem like a man with no principles or ideology at all but he's not. He truly hates any kind of direct action. He believes in doing everything by the book even though he must know the book was itself written by criminals. It's a shit ideology, but it's there alright.


That and doing nothing that will be criticized by the Mail or the Sun, but doing nothing will be criticized just as much by the Mail and the Sun.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jun 23, 2022)

two sheds said:


> That and doing nothing that will be criticized by the Mail or the Sun, but doing nothing will be criticized just as much by the Mail and the Sun.



That I would call strategy rather than ideology. Again, it's easy to assume there is no strategy but it's there alright.

It's just a fucking terrible strategy.


----------



## andysays (Jun 23, 2022)

Whagwan said:


> Super serious, super electable.
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 328578


Is it just me, or is that statement nothing more than a load of completely substanceless waffle?

Ideal mission statement for Starmer's Labour Party though


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 23, 2022)

Nothing I've read or seen of the man deviates much from a bog standard authoritarian prick. Whatever beliefs he once held towards labourism, pro working class politics or anything of that sort have been scorched out. I can't even raise much hate for him, he's such a fucking function of the system he doesn't even have foibles or idiosyncrasies to hate on.


andysays said:


> Is it just me, or is that statement nothing more than a load of completely substanceless waffle?
> 
> Ideal mission statement for Starmer's Labour Party though


no no,  that bit about 'not everyone will like it' is a direct little lab right sneer of the kind  I've become adept at spotting in these anonymous briefings. But other than that, waffle.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jun 26, 2022)

Revisionist nonsense at its worst!


----------



## PR1Berske (Jun 26, 2022)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Revisionist nonsense at its worst!


----------



## Rob Ray (Jun 26, 2022)

Lammy's always been a piece of shit, like that time he skipped out on Mark Duggan's vigil on the grounds he didn't want to "share a platform with criminals" and pretended the community's anger over the Duggan verdict was all down to them being manipulated by extremists.


----------



## tommers (Jun 26, 2022)

Seriously, what are they fucking playing at? They know this is just a reversal of a pay cut. It's like they think they can only be elected if they're Tories but not quite as cunty as actual Tories. 

I know none of this is new but fucking hell it's exhausting.


----------



## muscovyduck (Jun 27, 2022)

They're acting like they're applying for a management job. Because that's what they identify with and that's all their political careers have been


----------



## Wilf (Jun 27, 2022)

Opposing striking workers only makes sense in the idea of a politics that is nothing more than breaking with everything that went before under Corbyn, some kneejerk attempt at getting commuters and the mail on board.  But even within the mental confines of building some kind of centrist brand within which to oppose the tories it makes no sense.  It forgets that Labour had policy successes under Corbyn, around public services and social protection, even if that was presented as an uncoordinated mishmash in the 2019 election.  Even as some kind of awful timid centrist party, there has to be some kind of vision of a new kind of economy and use of the state to make people's lives less shit.  It wouldn't be my politics, but at least they'd be starting to peel back the notion that neo-liberalism and boss power are inevitable.  Essentially, Labour are sprinting away from the kind of politics that are precisely what is needed at the moment.


----------



## platinumsage (Jun 27, 2022)

Just looked at their website. Seems they’re offering flexible working and a £10/hr minimum wage, by 2030. 

Perhaps by election time they’ll come up with a manifesto with some actual meaningful policies.


----------



## gosub (Jun 27, 2022)

Raheem said:


> Starmer's making a bad (and ideologically guided) miscalculation about strikes, I think. He can get away with opposing one strike and denying that he's against strikes in principle. But we're going to have a slew over the next 12 months, and, even in 2022, it's not a line the leader of the Labour party can possibly hold. He's fucking himself.


Given the hoops you have to go through to have a legally mandated strike not supporting one thats met the threshold is basically saying you support making it even harder to strike


----------



## gosub (Jun 27, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> Just looked at their website. Seems they’re offering flexible working and a £10/hr minimum wage, by 2030.
> 
> Perhaps by election time they’ll come up with a manifesto with some actual meaningful policies.


Wot after Brown fought and won in court that a manefesto isn't binding... And Milliband had a giant tombstone that wasn't set in stone


----------



## Wilf (Jun 27, 2022)

Wilf said:


> Opposing striking workers only makes sense in the idea of a politics that is nothing more than breaking with everything that went before under Corbyn, some kneejerk attempt at getting commuters and the mail on board.  But even within the mental confines of building some kind of centrist brand within which to oppose the tories it makes no sense.  It forgets that Labour had policy successes under Corbyn, around public services and social protection, even if that was presented as an uncoordinated mishmash in the 2019 election.  Even as some *kind *of awful timid centrist party, there has to be some *kind *of vision of a new *kind *of economy and use of the state to make people's lives less shit.  It wouldn't be my politics, but at least they'd be starting to peel back the notion that neo-liberalism and boss power are inevitable.  Essentially, Labour are sprinting away from the kind of politics that are precisely what is needed at the moment.


Did nobody notice the double repetition?  Had you buzzed in you'd have had the rest of the minute on '_Why Labour is Shit_'.


----------



## Plumdaff (Jun 27, 2022)

Written 50 years ago, could have been this week...


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jun 28, 2022)

The revisionist counter-revolution is complete


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jun 28, 2022)

What exciting new policies to make this country better can we expect from the Starmer clique?

Make Armed Forces Day a Public Holiday

Mandatory Union Jack for All Publicity Photos

No Labour MP Allowed within a 100 Mile Radius of a Picket Line

Bring Back the Lighthouse Family

Twin the Annual Labour Conference with An Israeli Settlement in Hebron

Exile Corbyn to Mars

Can't wait!


----------



## muscovyduck (Jun 28, 2022)

What manifesto?????? What policies???


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 28, 2022)

Jeff Robinson said:


> The revisionist counter-revolution is complete



so until the next election they believe in nothing, then after the next election they'll ditch that lot of promises too and will once more believe in floating as free as the birds without ever a political principle to tether them to anything


----------



## muscovyduck (Jun 28, 2022)

This whole thing feels like a student union election at a uni where no one cares about the student union


----------



## muscovyduck (Jun 28, 2022)

"Uh... if I was elected I would like to campaign for mental health wellbeing and an Easter ball"


----------



## Serge Forward (Jun 28, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> so until the next election they believe in nothing


----------



## belboid (Jun 28, 2022)

muscovyduck said:


> What manifesto?????? What policies???


They have wait for the Tory manifesto to come out first, so they can water it down ever so slightly.


----------



## philosophical (Jun 28, 2022)

In my view the uselessness of Labour right now has been cemented in with the slogan ‘make Brexit work’.
Brexit isn’t defined, and ‘leave’ risks a return of conflict in Ireland.


----------



## killer b (Jun 28, 2022)

Why would Starmer be expected to stick by the 2019 manifesto, or have a new manifesto out now, two years before an election? No love for him or expectations of anything good from his leadership, but these seem odd things to get worked up about.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 28, 2022)

killer b said:


> Why would Starmer be expected to stick by the 2019 manifesto, or have a new manifesto out now, two years before an election? No love for him or expectations of anything good from his leadership, but these seem odd things to get worked up about.


if you get elected on that platform it is generally assumed not to expire after a couple of years because it's inconvenient. would starmer have been elected on a manifesto more to his liking? i suspect so: but think he'd have been joined by a smaller caucus of labour mps


----------



## killer b (Jun 28, 2022)

But a manifesto is a programme for government, which the Labour Party decisively failed to form in 2019 - there was no demands or expectation that Corbyn push on with Miliband's failed policies was there?


----------



## two sheds (Jun 28, 2022)

I didn't think it was the policies that failed.


----------



## Plumdaff (Jun 28, 2022)

killer b said:


> Why would Starmer be expected to stick by the 2019 manifesto, or have a new manifesto out now, two years before an election? No love for him or expectations of anything good from his leadership, but these seem odd things to get worked up about.




I think people are more cross about the dumping of the 10 pledges he made when running for Labour leader. For example;



> 7. work shoulder to shoulder with trade unions to stand up for working people, tackle insecure work and low pay. Repeal the Trade Union Act. Oppose Tory attacks on the right to take industrial action and weakening of workplace rights.



Does show him up to be the unprincipled liar, no?

Oh here's another



> An immigration system based on compassion and dignity.



....but he won't rule out continuing the Rwanda policy.


----------



## belboid (Jun 28, 2022)

killer b said:


> Why would Starmer be expected to stick by the 2019 manifesto, or have a new manifesto out now, two years before an election? No love for him or expectations of anything good from his leadership, but these seem odd things to get worked up about.


He said he’d ‘build on’ the 2019 manifesto not dump it entirely.  It’s just another example of his leadership campaign being built on complete lies.  

As to having a manifesto, he certainly doesn’t need a full one but he needs to lay out a few things that Labour will do differently, Blair certainly did.


----------



## killer b (Jun 28, 2022)

Plumdaff said:


> I think people are more cross about the dumping of the 10 pledges he made when running for Labour leader.


That's something to challenge him about for sure. But that's not what people are apparently cross about today.


----------



## Plumdaff (Jun 28, 2022)

killer b said:


> That's something to challenge him about for sure. But that's not what people are apparently cross about today.


I suspect it's because he ran as a continuity and unity candidate pledging to retain much of what the membership liked in the 2019 manifesto, but has reneged on all his pledges and now talks about a "clean slate" in terms of manifestos and policies. The anger about the manifesto is fuelled by the previous mendacity.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 28, 2022)

Plumdaff said:


> I think people are more cross about the dumping of the 10 pledges he made when running for Labour leader. For example;
> 
> 
> 
> ...


he's just going to be more efficient than the conservative & unionist party.


----------



## killer b (Jun 28, 2022)

I find it hard to believe anyone performing outrage today expected anything else tbf


----------



## Wilf (Jun 28, 2022)

killer b said:


> I find it hard to believe anyone performing outrage today expected anything else tbf


Next you'll be saying we can't call boris johnson a massive twat.


----------



## ska invita (Jun 28, 2022)

belboid said:


> They have wait for the Tory manifesto to come out first, so they can water it down ever so slightly.


thats not even a joke


----------



## Whagwan (Jun 28, 2022)

Who says they will water it down?  Thangam's boasted that being outflanked from the left by the Tories on the windfall tax shows how fiscally c-con-c-careful they are...


----------



## TopCat (Jun 28, 2022)

philosophical said:


> In my view the uselessness of Labour right now has been cemented in with the slogan ‘make Brexit work’.
> Brexit isn’t defined, and ‘leave’ risks a return of conflict in Ireland.


What has Brexit meant for Catford though?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 28, 2022)

TopCat said:


> What has Brexit meant for Catford though?


it can't even go to the dogs any more


----------



## philosophical (Jun 28, 2022)

TopCat said:


> What has Brexit meant for Catford though?



Here is an example of a vacuous poster attempting to dead cat by mocking.
'Cat'. See what I did there?
You voted leave, therefore you have nothing worth paying much attention to in my view.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jun 28, 2022)

Whagwan said:


> Who says they will water it down?  Thangam's boasted that being outflanked from the left by the Tories on the windfall tax shows how fiscally c-con-c-careful they are...




Thangam is a really spineless bellend - the epitome of a Starmer cliquist


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 28, 2022)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Thangam is a really spineless bellend - the epitome of a Starmer cliquist


the very model of a spineless wormlike shammerite you might say


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jun 28, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> the very model of a spineless wormlike shammerite you might say



No offence to worms though!


----------



## gosub (Jun 28, 2022)

Jeff Robinson said:


> The revisionist counter-revolution is complete



So it's choice between a bloke with no principles and one with no policies.   Conference season is going to be mental


----------



## gosub (Jun 28, 2022)

ska invita said:


> thats not even a joke


Feel free to protest it provided you abide by the new laws that came in today


----------



## PR1Berske (Jun 28, 2022)




----------



## gosub (Jun 28, 2022)

PR1Berske said:


>



Well that's jolly decent of them. Though as a policy (now they are making them up from scratch) can see a flaw if Royal Mail go on strike


----------



## oryx (Jun 28, 2022)

PR1Berske said:


>



Starting to wonder if the word 'Labour' (as in Labour Party  ) is a breach of the Trades Descriptions Act.


----------



## Whagwan (Jun 29, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> the very model of a spineless wormlike shammerite you might say



Credit to @kglassmith

"They say in Bristol county,
There are no neutrals there.
You can either be a union man,
Or a scab like Debonairre."


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 29, 2022)

oryx said:


> Starting to wonder if the word 'Labour' (as in Labour Party  ) is a breach of the Trades Descriptions Act


think we can all agree that describing the Tory Party as con is an accurate definition of their enterprise


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 29, 2022)

Whagwan said:


> Credit to @kglassmith
> 
> "They say in Bristol county,
> There are no neutrals there.
> ...


Posh young ladies used to buy nitrous oxide from tb until they realised once they'd inhaled each one was a deb on air


----------



## Whagwan (Jun 29, 2022)

She picked that surname mind...


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jun 29, 2022)

killer b said:


> I find it hard to believe anyone performing outrage today expected anything else tbf



I find it hard to believe that you can't see that people aren't performing anything. The endless betrayal and sabotage of the closest thing to a progressive agenda a mainstream party has had in many people's lifetimes is a legitimate cause for anger.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jun 29, 2022)

The People's Auntie Diane Abbott exposes and smashes the revisionist infiltrator and fifth columnist Starmer!


----------



## Serge Forward (Jun 29, 2022)

Whagwan said:


> She picked that surname mind...
> 
> View attachment 329477


Wasn't there a family of entertainers called the Debbonaires?


----------



## gosub (Jun 29, 2022)

Jeff Robinson said:


> The People's Auntie Diane Abbott exposes and smashes the revisionist infiltrator and fifth columnist Starmer!



When Diane Abbot says its 10....whats the actual number?


----------



## ska invita (Jun 29, 2022)

gosub said:


> When Diane Abbot says its 10....whats the actual number?


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jun 29, 2022)

Really? Black, left wing MP makes mistake once so is 'hilariously' inept at numbers forever more is very Daily Mail attack line isn't it.


----------



## gosub (Jun 29, 2022)

Shafaw home


Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> Really? Black, left wing MP makes mistake once so is 'hilariously' inept at numbers forever more is very Daily Mail attack line isn't it.


 Secretary showed she wasn't on top of her brief and all you give a fuck about is the colour of her skin


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jun 29, 2022)

gosub said:


> Shafaw home
> 
> Secretary showed she wasn't on top of her brief and all you give a fuck about is the colour of her skin



Come off it. The whole 'look how hilariously innumerate Diane Abbott is' thing that came as a result of that interview is a long standing right wing attack line and you know it. That's how it still exists in that sort of glib joke.


----------



## Serge Forward (Jun 29, 2022)

gosub said:


> Shafaw home
> 
> Secretary showed she wasn't on top of her brief and all you give a fuck about is the colour of her skin


I don't care for Diane Abbott or the rest of the useless Labour Party, but that was a concerted attack from the right wing media (which made barely a peep over Priti Patel's terrible maths). Perpetuating and buying into that attack makes you sound like a dick.


----------



## TopCat (Jun 29, 2022)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> Really? Black, left wing MP makes mistake once so is 'hilariously' inept at numbers forever more is very Daily Mail attack line isn't it.


Priti Patel can’t count either. A pox on the pair of idiots.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jun 29, 2022)

TopCat said:


> Priti Patel can’t count either. A pox on the pair of idiots.



Priti Patel is a horrible shithead for all manner of reasons. She's not generally on the end of those jokes though is she.


----------



## TopCat (Jun 29, 2022)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> Priti Patel is a horrible shithead for all manner of reasons. She's not generally on the end of those jokes though is she.


She is with me.


----------



## gosub (Jun 29, 2022)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> Come off it. The whole 'look how hilariously innumerate Diane Abbott is' thing that came as a result of that interview is a long standing right wing attack line and you know it. That's how it still exists in that sort of glib joke.


Bollocks. Had a go at other senior minsters when they've shown themselves to be clueless. 

To be fair though.   I did hear a story about her, won't repeat it coz by the time it reached me its friend of a friend so not sure if true but was less than impressive


----------



## gosub (Jun 29, 2022)

Serge Forward said:


> I don't care for Diane Abbott or the rest of the useless Labour Party, but that was a concerted attack from the right wing media (which made barely a peep over Priti Patel's terrible maths). Perpetuating and buying into that attack makes you sound like a dick.


Someone who wanted to be in charge of the police who doesn't even know what dibble earns or costs to train is not a good look.

I trust you leap to the defense (on racial lines) of psycho Patel as well


----------



## ska invita (Jun 29, 2022)

gosub said:


> I did hear a story about her, won't repeat it coz by the time it reached me its friend of a friend so not sure if true but was less than impressive


Go on , tell us another , on the edge of our seats


----------



## killer b (Jun 29, 2022)

Loving the 2016 reenactment society stuff. It's note perfect. bravo.


----------



## gosub (Jun 29, 2022)

ska invita said:


> Go on , tell us another , on the edge of our seats


No coz it's so polished it seems a bit sus.  Former constituency office story


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 29, 2022)

gosub said:


> Someone who wanted to be in charge of the police who doesn't even know what dibble earns or costs to train is not a good look.
> 
> I trust you leap to the defense (on racial lines) of psycho Patel as well


Woman with type 2 diabetes and sugar levels all over the place makes mistake and is never allowed to forget it. Sure she has poor politics and there's loads of things you can knock her on but you chose the one incident that makes you look a cunt


----------



## YouSir (Jun 29, 2022)

gosub said:


> No coz it's so polished it seems a bit sus.  Former constituency office story



Then why mention it? 'I heard a rumour that's clearly bullshit' is something so pointless that it's best kept to yourself.


----------



## gosub (Jun 29, 2022)

YouSir said:


> Then why mention it? 'I heard a rumour that's clearly bullshit' is something so pointless that it's best kept to yourself.


Coz it was fucking plausible to me. IF someone else can supply the punchline then I'm more inclined to consider it apocryphal.  If no. Well then all you've got is that there's a rumour about a story but it isn't being spread


----------



## Serge Forward (Jun 29, 2022)

gosub said:


> Someone who wanted to be in charge of the police who doesn't even know what dibble earns or costs to train is not a good look.
> 
> I trust you leap to the defense (on racial lines) of psycho Patel as well


I never mentioned "racial lines". That was you. Now kindly go and find yourself a Daily Mail to crack one off to.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jun 29, 2022)

Revisionist stalwart David Lammy enacts self-criticism on his revisionist degeneracy. Sincere or merely a rowing back a view that prompted greater backlash than he expected?


----------



## teqniq (Jun 29, 2022)

It's pretty much a case of 'if his lips are moving, he is lying'.


----------



## Sue (Jun 29, 2022)

gosub said:


> I trust you leap to the defense (on racial lines) of psycho Patel as well


You're really on a roll today...


----------



## killer b (Jun 29, 2022)

Patel is certainly abused _on racial lines_ (as well as gender, cf Dorries), and it would be good if people were prepared to unpick this kind of stuff a bit instead of instantly becoming shrilly defensive when challenged tbh


----------



## PR1Berske (Jun 30, 2022)

> Tony Blair has dismissed the need for a new political party, saying Labour has “recovered” under Keir Starmer but needs a clearer sense of direction to win the next general election.
> 
> After a mixed few weeks for Labour, with MPs raising concerns about Starmer’s appeal but the party managing to retake the “red wall” seat of Wakefield in a byelection, Blair said the leadership needed to come forward with appealing new policies.
> 
> ...


----------



## Whagwan (Jun 30, 2022)

Would that be the Emmanuel Macron that has just entered an alliance with the Le Pen?


----------



## steveseagull (Jun 30, 2022)

Hey! We are the dull uninspiring middle managers and we want your vote!


----------



## Quote (Jun 30, 2022)

No matter how many relaunches and catchy slogans are thrown at it, Starmer's Labour could never be anything but deeply un-energising.


----------



## ska invita (Jun 30, 2022)

I think those thinking He's Keeping His Powder Dry are going to witness some poor labour spad trying to set fire to a wet wipe come election season


----------



## Plumdaff (Jun 30, 2022)

Normal non ranty people at work are starting to go on about how shit he is (was unfavourably compared to Mick Lynch today by usually apolitical co worker). OK I work in the NHS in Wales, not a hotbed of Tories, but if people like that think you're irredeemably crap you're done for.


----------



## TopCat (Jul 1, 2022)

Starmer allies reject claims leftwingers blocked from standing for Labour
					

Party figures understood to have urged leader to rein in acolytes after candidates from left excluded from longlists




					www.theguardian.com
				




No one to the left of Blair to stand.


----------



## teqniq (Jul 1, 2022)

Someone with principles:



Meanwhile:


----------



## two sheds (Jul 1, 2022)

Yes everybody wait until Labour gets to power and does nothing about it all either.


----------



## steveseagull (Jul 1, 2022)

With these dreadful people, there is always a reason why people cannot have nice stuff (in this case enough to feed your kids and pay your bills/mortgage)


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jul 1, 2022)

teqniq said:


> Someone with principles:
> 
> 
> 
> Meanwhile:




Salute to the anti-revisionist Mike Amesbury! Starmer's perfidious clique must be exposed and resisted at every opportunity!


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 1, 2022)

teqniq said:


> Someone with principles:
> 
> 
> 
> Meanwhile:



If the country can't afford strikes then employers should not let things get so far


----------



## Johnny Vodka (Jul 1, 2022)

teqniq said:


> Someone with principles:
> 
> 
> 
> Meanwhile:




Tony Blair - what an utter cunt.


----------



## TopCat (Jul 1, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> If the country can't afford strikes then employers should not let things get so far


Yes.


----------



## AnnO'Neemus (Jul 2, 2022)

andysays said:


> I get what you're saying, but I suspect the risk of a genuine left split from Labour is so unlikely as to be not worth anyone worrying about.
> 
> I may be wrong of course, and I'm only a disinterested observer rather than being that concerned either way.


I think you're correct in that a genuine left split from Labour is so unlikely as to be not worth worrying about. 

However, what is arguably worth worrying about is the expulsion and alienation of the Corbynistas and others on the left of the party, because they were the enthusiastic 'foot soldier' types who were pounding the pavements, leafleting and canvassing. 

And they were doing so not only in their own constituencies, but also going to help out in the marginals. 

I suspect that come the next GE, there will be more reliance on Royal Mail than in previous years - as someone noted above about a recent election - because Labour doesn't have the capacity for hand delivery.

I live in a Labour safe seat in Manchester and know quite a number of lefties who joined up because they felt seen and represented by Corbyn and the left of the party, for the first time in years, and not only did they become active in the local party, they did go and help with electioneering in other areas. Many of them have now drifted away, although a handful are still in the party.

You can't treat people like shit and then expect them to support you and you can't rely on them to turn out and walk the streets and push leaflets through letterboxes.

I suspect they're not worried enough about that, they're just glad to see the back of lefties.


----------



## andysays (Jul 2, 2022)

AnnO'Neemus said:


> I think you're correct in that a genuine left split from Labour is so unlikely as to be not worth worrying about.
> 
> However, what is arguably worth worrying about is the expulsion and alienation of the Corbynistas and others on the left of the party, because they were the enthusiastic 'foot soldier' types who were pounding the pavements, leafleting and canvassing.
> 
> ...


Yeah, this is reasonable point, and it mirrors the general decline in Labour voting over the decades as voters feel taken for granted.


----------



## AnnO'Neemus (Jul 2, 2022)

Johnny Vodka said:


> Tony Blair - what an utter cunt.


Fucking cunt.

Establishment stooge Blair shows no fucking awareness that the public sector workers who he's insisting accept below inflation pay settlements are the kind of people whose votes Labour is going to need to get elected.

Total detachment from reality. The little people, those poorly paid public sector workers should just accept living in poverty as a price worth paying so that Labour MPs can elected into jobs paying £70k+ and so that a Labour government like the one he led can get into bed with big business, and then that tiny elite can enrich themselves and go on to become multimillionaires. And fuck the little people living in poverty.

Fuck self-aggrandising self-enriching war criminal Blair.


----------



## AnnO'Neemus (Jul 2, 2022)

SpookyFrank said:


> He might seem like a man with no principles or ideology at all but he's not. He truly hates any kind of direct action. He believes in doing everything by the book even though he must know the book was itself written by criminals. It's a shit ideology, but it's there alright.


Keir Starmer has dined out for decades on some human rights legal work he did donkeys years ago. 

But Sir Keir has been a member of the establishment for a long time now. 

And as for SpookyFrank 's assertion that Sir Keir hates direct action...

As poacher-turned-gamekeeper, ie Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP), Starmer presided over several miscarriages of justices, including the wrongful convictions, subsequently overturned, of activists who blocked the Drax power station at Ratcliffe-on-Soar. 

The CPS, headed by DPP Starmer, failed to disclose evidence about the involvement of 'Spycop' Mark Kennedy.

Sorry for the Canary link, but you can Google info about this on lots of other left-wing blogs etc.









						A message to anyone thinking of voting for Keir Starmer in the Labour leadership race
					

And it's not just because the last thing Labour needs is another white man




					www.thecanary.co
				




Starmer is a cunt. And a waste of space. He and the Labour Party should be soaring ahead in the polls at this point, but they're not, because he's a liability. And he's ineffectual at PMQs, I mean so many open fucking goals and he can't score even though Johnson has pretty much given Starmer the ball, walked him to the penalty spot, then gone and tied the goalies' hands behind his back. And Starmer still can't fucking score. He's a wasteman.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jul 2, 2022)

AnnO'Neemus said:


> Keir Starmer has dined out for decades on some human rights legal work he did donkeys years ago.
> 
> But Sir Keir has been a member of the establishment for a long time now.
> 
> ...



Yeah several mates of mine were nicked at the Ratcliffe thing 

E2a: They didn't actually blockade anything. They were arrested the night before a planned action on a spycop tip off. There was also some gang violence in Nottingham that night, with one guy beaten half to death at a local nightclub by blokes welding champagne bottles. The perpetrators were not arrested, because every cell in a 30 mile radius was full of climate change protestors.


----------



## AnnO'Neemus (Jul 2, 2022)

muscovyduck said:


> They're acting like they're applying for a management job. Because that's what they identify with and that's all their political careers have been


Excellent point.


----------



## ska invita (Jul 2, 2022)

AnnO'Neemus said:


> poacher-turned-gamekeeper,


like that


----------



## AnnO'Neemus (Jul 2, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> Just looked at their website. Seems they’re offering flexible working and a £10/hr minimum wage, by 2030.
> 
> Perhaps by election time they’ll come up with a manifesto with some actual meaningful policies.


Total fucking idiots.

The Real Living Wage was most recently calculated to be £9.90 outside London and £11.05 in London.

So, in effect, a £10ph Living Wage by 2030 would be an actual pay cut for those in London and a real-terms pay cut for many elsewhere in the country.

They haven't got a fucking clue. 

They're like my ostensibly lefty neighbour, from a middle class background now working as a university lecturer, but she thinks she's down with the kids because she lives on an inner city housing estate. When the pandemic was declared, I was working for a VCSE sector organisation that immediately switched gear and roped in community groups to mutual aid roles. So when I got home I suggested we prepare to use some of our estate's tenants and residents association funds for some food parcels for folks who couldn't get to the shops because they tested positive or because they were vulnerable. Lefty lecturer suggested that when she was going to do her wholefood shop she also place an order for a load more bags of dried fucking beans.

Clueless types like that are in charge now. Instead of let them eat cake, it's 'Let them eat mung beans.' 

People who work/volunteer on the low pay/poverty frontline in food banks know that there are hungry people who (a) are too fucking hungry to wait for a pan of mung fucking beans to soak overnight and (b) then don't have enough credit in their prepayment meters to cook stuff, so the food banks have to prepare food parcels that require minimal or no cooking.

The problem is that too many in positions of power and policy-making in the Labour Party are those kinds of people, and their proposed solutions to problems just don't cut it. (See also: don't strike for better pay and conditions, don't support strikers, just roll over and accept being shit on from a great height.)






						What is the real Living Wage?
					






					www.livingwage.org.uk


----------



## AnnO'Neemus (Jul 2, 2022)

muscovyduck said:


> This whole thing feels like a student union election at a uni where no one cares about the student union


Nailed it.


----------



## AnnO'Neemus (Jul 2, 2022)

SpookyFrank said:


> Yeah several mates of mine were nicked at the Ratcliffe thing
> 
> E2a: They didn't actually blockade anything. They were arrested the night before a planned action on a spycop tip off. There was also some gang violence in Nottingham that night, with one guy beaten half to death at a local nightclub by blokes welding champagne bottles. The perpetrators were not arrested, because every cell in a 30 mile radius was full of climate change protestors.


We might have some mutual friends.


----------



## PR1Berske (Jul 2, 2022)




----------



## two sheds (Jul 2, 2022)

Err Corbyn in 2016 at least?


----------



## Wilf (Jul 2, 2022)

PR1Berske said:


>



Whereas he won't be attending Durham Miners (not invited iirc).  Needless to say, Pride is good, but there's that shift towards getting onto the safe territory  of diversity, while sprinting away from class and picket lines.


----------



## muscovyduck (Jul 2, 2022)

Wilf said:


> Whereas he won't be attending Durham Miners (not invited iirc).  Needless to say, Pride is good, but there's that shift towards getting onto the safe territory  of diversity, while sprinting away from class and picket lines.


I mean, my homophobic mum went pride one year so 🤷


----------



## Johnny Vodka (Jul 2, 2022)

PR1Berske said:


>




Still a nob regardless.


----------



## oryx (Jul 2, 2022)

AnnO'Neemus said:


> Clueless types like that are in charge now. Instead of let them eat cake, it's 'Let them eat mung beans.'


See also: porridge.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 2, 2022)

PR1Berske said:


>



as a former resident of sir keithly shammer's constituency i can only say he makes camden ashamed. frank dobson was thrice the politician shammer will ever be.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 2, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Err Corbyn in 2016 at least?


yeh Jeremy Corbyn tells Pride heckler 'I did all I could' to campaign against Brexit but now corbyn is a non-person nothing he did like that counts any more.


----------



## Bingoman (Jul 3, 2022)

There is  rumours doing the round on Twitter and also heard this on LBC last night that kier Starmer has been fined by Durham police and the police ask the eyewitness if they where willing to testify in court too?

Any truth to the rumours?


----------



## TopCat (Jul 3, 2022)

Bingoman said:


> There is  rumours doing the round on Twitter and also heard this on LBC last night that kier Starmer has been fined by Durham police and the police ask the eyewitness if they where willing to testify in court too?
> 
> Any truth to the rumours?


It’s true there are rumours.


----------



## killer b (Jul 3, 2022)

It seems unlikely that the first people to find out about this would be left wing shitposters on twitter tbh.


----------



## Johnny Vodka (Jul 3, 2022)

Bingoman said:


> There is  rumours doing the round on Twitter and also heard this on LBC last night that kier Starmer has been fined by Durham police and the police ask the eyewitness if they where willing to testify in court too?
> 
> Any truth to the rumours?



Fingers crossed, eh?


----------



## oryx (Jul 3, 2022)

Bingoman said:


> There is  rumours doing the round on Twitter and also heard this on LBC last night that kier Starmer has been fined by Durham police and the police ask the eyewitness if they where willing to testify in court too?
> 
> Any truth to the rumours?


Ha, was just coming on here to post that. 

Hope it's true.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 3, 2022)

I'd quite like shammer to stay, to utterly wreck the labour party


----------



## steeplejack (Jul 4, 2022)

Shur Queef’s Union Jack bloomers are _itching_ this morning!









						I’ll never talk to the SNP, says Starmer. That’s morally dubious and tactically inept | Neal Lawson
					

Our times cry out for leaders willing to confront huge problems across the political divide, says Neal Lawson, director of the campaign group Compass




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## MickiQ (Jul 4, 2022)

He will never get to be PM then will he? Labour have no hope of getting an outright majority


----------



## killer b (Jul 4, 2022)

It's just a ritual all modern Labour leaders have to undertake, saying they won't do deals with the SNP ahead of elections. Corbyn said the same, so did Miliband - it doesn't actually mean anything.


----------



## PR1Berske (Jul 4, 2022)

killer b said:


> It's just a ritual all modern Labour leaders have to undertake, saying they won't do deals with the SNP ahead of elections. Corbyn said the same, so did Miliband - it doesn't actually mean anything.


Echoes of the "will you ever enter coalition with the LDs" question leaders were always asked before 2010. It's a lazy question that can fill hundreds of comment pieces.


----------



## TopCat (Jul 4, 2022)

Brexit: No case for UK returning to EU, Labour leader Starmer says
					

The Labour leader rules out a return to the EU, and is due to set out his plan to "make Brexit work".



					www.bbc.co.uk
				




He makes a reference to wet wipe island. I think “Wet Wipe” is a pretty good moniker for himself.


----------



## Spandex (Jul 4, 2022)

TopCat said:


> wet wipe island


What the fuck does that even mean?

Wet wipes are useful if you have young kids, pretty good at cleaning, bad at polluting - especially if you don't use biodegradable ones - and they block the loo if you flush them. Where's the political metaphor there?

Starmer's used it a couple of times recently, suggesting it's some kind of agreed political slogan that his communication team has sat around a table and come up with, one that he's really proud of and thinks conveys some kind of message that the electorate will seize on. But unless I'm missing something it's just a random word jumble. It's doesn't capture some deep feeling like Get Brexit Done. It doesn't make sense. It just makes him sound more of a prick than he already does.


----------



## TopCat (Jul 4, 2022)

I would rather vote for the head of Turbo Island


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jul 4, 2022)

Ed Ballbags now a reactionary GMB host calling non-violent direct action over climate change 'terrorism'. He represents both Labour's past and its future under the revisionist Starmer clique. He symbolises the type of cadre who will thrive under the renegade Starmer's leadership


----------



## killer b (Jul 4, 2022)

Spandex said:


> What the fuck does that even mean?
> 
> Wet wipes are useful if you have young kids, pretty good at cleaning, bad at polluting - especially if you don't use biodegradable ones - and they block the loo if you flush them. Where's the political metaphor there?
> 
> Starmer's used it a couple of times recently, suggesting it's some kind of agreed political slogan that his communication team has sat around a table and come up with, one that he's really proud of and thinks conveys some kind of message that the electorate will seize on. But unless I'm missing something it's just a random word jumble. It's doesn't capture some deep feeling like Get Brexit Done. It doesn't make sense. It just makes him sound more of a prick than he already does.


it's pretty clear in context what the metaphor is isn't it? From the article:

_He will liken the economic effect of Brexit to the "wet wipe island" blocking the river Thames, adding: "It is hampering the flow of British business — we will break that barrier down."_


----------



## NoXion (Jul 4, 2022)

Spandex said:


> What the fuck does that even mean?
> 
> Wet wipes are useful if you have young kids, pretty good at cleaning, bad at polluting - especially if you don't use biodegradable ones - and they block the loo if you flush them. Where's the political metaphor there?
> 
> Starmer's used it a couple of times recently, suggesting it's some kind of agreed political slogan that his communication team has sat around a table and come up with, one that he's really proud of and thinks conveys some kind of message that the electorate will seize on. But unless I'm missing something it's just a random word jumble. It's doesn't capture some deep feeling like Get Brexit Done. It doesn't make sense. It just makes him sound more of a prick than he already does.



It's a reference to this:









						A huge mass of used wet wipes has formed an 'island' that has changed the course of England's second longest river, MP says
					

Thousands of discarded wipes flushed down toilets end up on the river Thames banks, forming a mass dubbed 'wet wipe island.'




					www.businessinsider.com


----------



## Sue (Jul 4, 2022)

killer b said:


> it's pretty clear in context what the metaphor is isn't it? From the article:
> 
> _He will liken the economic effect of Brexit to the "wet wipe island" blocking the river Thames, adding: "It is hampering the flow of British business — we will break that barrier down."_


What a rubbish and clumsy metaphor it is though. 🤣


----------



## Elpenor (Jul 4, 2022)

Is he not also conjuring up the “Boris Island” airport idea off the Kent coast that was floated for a while


----------



## killer b (Jul 4, 2022)

Sue said:


> What a rubbish and clumsy metaphor it is though. 🤣


yeah well. people love shit and clumsy metaphors, consider the enduring success of Matt, who is paid substantially more than the newspaper he creates creaking metaphors for's editor


----------



## Spandex (Jul 4, 2022)

NoXion said:


> It's a reference to this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Gotcha 

It's a shit, clumsy and convoluted metaphor referring to a slightly obscure local London news story. Makes sense that Starmer thought 'brilliant!'.

Talk of wet wipes mostly makes me think of changing nappies.


----------



## PR1Berske (Jul 4, 2022)




----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jul 4, 2022)

having pissed off 'the left', the centrist remainer types are now making noises like they won't vote labour now...


----------



## AnnO'Neemus (Jul 4, 2022)

ska invita said:


> like that


We aim to please! 🙂


----------



## JimW (Jul 6, 2022)

In news from home I think it must have been the Starmerites eagerness to impose a candidate that has led the leadership of the Labour group on our district council to resign - one of them clearly saw herself as the natural successor to former MP Dave Drew to contest the seat: Letter to the editor: top brass leave Stroud Labour Party | Stroud Times
Group used to be largest in a coalition with Greens and Winning Here Yellowbellies but this means they're not any longer, which has allowed the Tories to try a bit of shit-stirring: Letter to the editor: Conservatives respond to Labour departures | Stroud Times Though maybe Tories urge Greens to seize power would be one for the why they're shit thread.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jul 7, 2022)

Yet more despicable revisionism from rightwing apparatchik Rachel Reeves.


----------



## steeplejack (Jul 7, 2022)

Posted this on the indyref thread but worth sharing here as well...the clueless Shur Kieth ensures that the only thing Labour will win in Scotland in 2024 is a slew of poor second and third place finishes. What an absolute clown.


----------



## Bingoman (Jul 8, 2022)

The Guardian have just reported that Durham Police will report today on weather starmer is fined or not?


----------



## platinumsage (Jul 8, 2022)

No fine.


----------



## Wilf (Jul 8, 2022)

FFS, you had one job to do. One fucking job!


----------



## Wilf (Jul 8, 2022)

Can we appeal the decision?


----------



## not a trot (Jul 8, 2022)

Fucking woke constabulary. That'll be the cry from DM readers.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 8, 2022)

That'll raise the vermin spirits even higher.


----------



## Bingoman (Jul 8, 2022)

The Tory Mp for Durham is glad Starmer is not fined


----------



## Wilf (Jul 8, 2022)

Joking aside, I think that's the next election fucked for Labour, pretty much regardless of who the vermin pick.  The main problem with kieth is the project, the flag ridden, de-Corbynification, the neo-liberalism. But something has happened to his self confidence or similar.  Back in his 'forensic' days as a shadow minister, it felt like he was at home, doing what he did.  Hardly funny or 'twinkly' as I think they used to describe John Smith in Parliament, but confident.  Then as soon as his focus became the public - actually _meeting _the public - he's been dreadful, wooden, scared even.  And that has carried over into his Parliamentary work, even if he was good yesterday.  There's something about his eyes that looks like he's close to tears all the time..  His voice has a slightly strangled, desperate tone as well.  All highly personal on my part and pretty superficial, but he just hasn't got the personality to be a political leader.

tldr?  He's an over promoted government law officer or even home secreatry, but not leader.


----------



## Bingoman (Jul 8, 2022)

Wilf said:


> Joking aside, I think that's the next election fucked for Labour, pretty much regardless of who the vermin pick.  The main problem with kieth is the project, the flag ridden, de-Corbynification, the neo-liberalism. But something has happened to his self confidence or similar.  Back in his 'forensic' days as a shadow minister, it felt like he was at home, doing what he did.  Hardly funny or 'twinkly' as I think they used to describe John Smith in Parliament, but confident.  Then as soon as his focus became the public - actually _meeting _the public - he's been dreadful, wooden, scared even.  And that has carried over into his Parliamentary work, even if he was good yesterday.  There's something about his eyes that looks like he's close to tears all the time.   Not a good look whatever it is.


I think it depends on who they pick, but I think Labour might just win because the red wall seats will be back  with labour imo


----------



## not a trot (Jul 8, 2022)

Bingoman said:


> I think it depends on who they pick, but I think Labour might just win because the red wall seats will be back  with labour imo



'Stop Starmer, Save Brexit', already seen posted elsewhere.


----------



## Wilf (Jul 8, 2022)

Bingoman said:


> I think it depends on who they pick, but I think Labour might just win because the red wall seats will be back  with labour imo


There's a lot to turnaround there. I think Labour's best outcome would be some sort of alliance with the Libs and an agreement with the Nats.  Labour's problem is they haven't re established themselves in the constituencies/communities they need to win back.  And that was true for the period of the Corbyn leadership as much as now.


----------



## billy_bob (Jul 8, 2022)

Wilf said:


> Joking aside, I think that's the next election fucked for Labour, pretty much regardless of who the vermin pick.  The main problem with kieth is the project, the flag ridden, de-Corbynification, the neo-liberalism. But something has happened to his self confidence or similar.  Back in his 'forensic' days as a shadow minister, it felt like he was at home, doing what he did.  Hardly funny or 'twinkly' as I think they used to describe John Smith in Parliament, but confident.  Then as soon as his focus became the public - actually _meeting _the public - he's been dreadful, wooden, scared even.  And that has carried over into his Parliamentary work, even if he was good yesterday.  There's something about his eyes that looks like he's close to tears all the time..  His voice has a slightly strangled, desperate tone as well.  All highly personal on my part and pretty superficial, but he just hasn't got the personality to be a political leader.
> 
> tldr?  He's an over promoted government law officer or even home secreatry, but not leader.


You're right. Personal views of his politics aside, I've seen him make some fantastic speeches and absolutely dominate debates in the past, just leaving his opponents in tatters. I can't recall a single example of that since he's been leader. He no longer seems to be any good at what he's meant to be good at, even with the Tory goal gaping open and unattended in front of him.


----------



## billy_bob (Jul 8, 2022)

As much as the concept of this 'progressive alliance' repels me, it might be the only hope to just get the Tories out. But that'd only really be worth it if we were going to see something better on offer than just Tory-lite, and that doesn't look likely at the moment. So it would probably just be five years of footling about then back to the Tories anyway. From a Labour Party point of view, I also think they'd need a level of strategic nous far beyond anything they seem to have these days to boss an alliance the way the Tories did the coalition and not come out of it worse off.


----------



## A380 (Jul 8, 2022)

I was hoping he'd get a COVID ticket so he'd go in a painless manner.

Still, another reason to dislike  Durham Constabulary in their smugness...


----------



## two sheds (Jul 8, 2022)

He should resign anyway to show his  superior moral standng and because he was really saying "I'll go if he goes".


----------



## Wilf (Jul 8, 2022)

billy_bob said:


> You're right. Personal views of his politics aside, I've seen him make some fantastic speeches and absolutely dominate debates in the past, just leaving his opponents in tatters. I can't recall a single example of that since he's been leader. He no longer seems to be any good at what he's meant to be good at, even with the Tory goal gaping open and unattended in front of him.


When he became leader, again, his politics aside, I thought there's be a sort of assertive solidity that would at least trump johnson's flashy futilities.  I go on about John Smith, Labour's 'lost prime minister' and all that, someone with equally awful politics. He was every bit the lawyer that kieth is, but was able to deliver derision and contempt in an amusing way.  And, the irony, that as the only Labour leader in living memory with a working class background, kieth ends up squirming every time he has to head out beyond Westminster.


----------



## Sue (Jul 8, 2022)

billy_bob said:


> As much as the concept of this 'progressive alliance' repels me, it might be the only hope to just get the Tories out. But that'd only really be worth it if we were going to see something better on offer than just Tory-lite, and that doesn't look likely at the moment. So it would probably just be five years of footling about then back to the Tories anyway. From a Labour Party point of view, I also think they'd need a level of strategic nous far beyond anything they seem to have these days to boss an alliance the way the Tories did the coalition and not come out of it worse off.


Who would this 'progressive alliance' be with anyway? The Lib Dems?  Starmer's just said he wouldn't even talk to the SNP (not that I'm saying they're progressive) and why would the SNP want to get involved in this kind of thing with Labour anyway? And who else is there? The Greens? 🤣


----------



## Whagwan (Jul 8, 2022)

Odd


----------



## billy_bob (Jul 8, 2022)

Sue said:


> Who would this 'progressive alliance' be with anyway? The Lib Dems?  Starmer's just said he wouldn't even talk to the SNP (not that I'm saying they're progressive) and why would the SNP want to get involved in this kind of thing with Labour anyway? And who else is there? The Greens? 🤣


I was responding to Wilf's suggestion that it was their best outcome. I'm saying only that I suppose it might be, in the electoral short term, if it was possible, and as long as they've evidently got no other plans to reestablish a meaningful presence in the communities they need to win back. But ideologically it's a disaster area and in the longer term it'd probably be a gross tactical error too.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Jul 8, 2022)

sigh - disappointing - but pretty predictable. 
however - a bit of a propaganda coup for starmer. he's all over the news talking about "integrity" (as in his)  - in contrast to the tory sewage farm. media gold.


----------



## Wilf (Jul 8, 2022)

billy_bob said:


> I was responding to Wilf's suggestion that it was their best outcome. I'm saying only that I suppose it might be, in the electoral short term, if it was possible, and as long as they've evidently got no other plans to reestablish a meaningful presence in the communities they need to win back. But ideologically it's a disaster area and in the longer term it'd probably be a gross tactical error too.


Yeah, I meant 'best' with regard to what Labour can reasonably expect, that they can't win an outright majority.  Not as in 'a good thing'. 

In some senses an ideological disaster area, as you say, but also a _genuine _'progressive' alliance - a working illustration that 'progressive' = Tory Lite.


----------



## Wilf (Jul 8, 2022)

Kaka Tim said:


> sigh - disappointing - but pretty predictable.
> however - a bit of a propaganda coup for starmer. he's all over the news talking about "integrity" (as in his)  - in contrast to the tory sewage farm. media gold.


'When we had a curry and breathed all over each other in the pandemic, we did it with _integrity_'.


----------



## bellaozzydog (Jul 8, 2022)

Whagwan said:


> Odd
> 
> View attachment 331203



I’ve got mixed emotions about supertanski I like her spicy delivery, real anger and dystopia warning style. But she’s a starmer Stan


----------



## Sue (Jul 8, 2022)

Wilf said:


> In some senses an ideological disaster area, as you say, but also *a genuine 'progressive' alliance *- a working illustration that 'progressive' = Tory Lite.


What would that even look like though? 🤷‍♀️


----------



## Knotted (Jul 9, 2022)

My thinking on Starmer and centrism and their likely success.

Two electoral advantages Starmer gives the LP:

1) He doesn't firm up the Tory vote. Viewed as relatively harmless.
2) He's building an informal alliance with the Lib Dems and we're now seeing a lot of tactical voting against the Tories.

I don't think centrism is where the general public are but it does have its tactical advantages. I think the Tories are without a chance next GE but the medium to long term picture for both main parties is pretty dire IMO. The core vote for both is decaying.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jul 9, 2022)




----------



## brogdale (Jul 12, 2022)

FFFS...


----------



## teqniq (Jul 12, 2022)

Fucking clowns.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jul 12, 2022)

Opposition to hunger now regarded as 'far left' by revisionist Starmer clique?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jul 12, 2022)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Opposition to hunger now regarded as 'far left' by revisionist Starmer clique?


----------



## AnnO'Neemus (Jul 13, 2022)

Bingoman said:


> I think it depends on who they pick, but I think Labour might just win because the red wall seats will be back  with labour imo


The problem with that assumption is that it doesn't take account of voting behaviour in that people mostly vote * for * someone or something. 

They previously voted for Labour in the working class former industrial North because of heritage/tradition, working class loyalty to the Labour movement. 

Then they voted Conservative because they were 'similarly' voting for the (white) working class, and to take back our sovereignty from Europe and 'make Britain great again' etc. And Boris is a bit of a lad, a bit of a lark, very popular and populist.

Except now it's maybe dawning on them that the working class is screwed every which way. The saviours of the 'hard working families' haven't really saved or helped them, much. Yes, some people might've benefited from furlough or grants for small businesses etc during the pandemic, but lots of people fell through the gaps. And many would've realised that the life of Reilly they thought 'benefits scroungers' were living while they toiled was actually pretty fucking grim and involved lots of scrimping and saving and doing without. Although many who already knew about 'in work poverty' went from struggling to relying on food banks, and choosing between heating or eating.

But what does Labour have to offer those subsisting below the poverty line on benefits and those hard working families who now find themselves struggling more than ever before?

Starmer's neither popular not populist. He's not a man of the people like Corbyn. He's not a jack the lad who people might vote for because he's funny on telly like Johnson.

When you think about how many tens, hundreds of thousands of people died needlessly because Johnson was a knob who talked to the media about how he was 'shaking hands with Covid patients' and wasn't man enough to implement lockdowns or cancel Christmas - for other people, he was partying behind the scenes all along - until it was all too late. And all the corruption and sleaze...

...Labour should be absolutely soaring ahead in the polls, should have been for months. But Starmer can hardly score even when there's an open goal at PMQs. 

And Starmer's either a policy vacuum - doesn't want to play Labour's hand too early - or the pronouncements he does make amount to out-Torying the Tories. Don't want to scare big business. Doesn't want to side with trade unions or working people who've had wages freezes or below inflation pay rises for years, real-term pay cuts.

He's not giving people anything to vote * for * so I reckon turnout will be lower, because those who voted Tory last time probably won't jump straight back to Labour. They've broken that bond. They don't owe Labour their vote.


----------



## oryx (Jul 13, 2022)

I thought Owen Jones's piece yesterday was good, and spot-on.  Almost reflects the title of this thread!









						Relying on Johnson’s failures is Labour’s only strategy - its time is almost up | Owen Jones
					

Keir Starmer’s party lacks any kind of political vision to actively appeal to voters, says Guardian columnist Owen Jones




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## teqniq (Jul 13, 2022)

What the fuck happened here?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 13, 2022)

teqniq said:


> What the fuck happened here?



Shammer strikes again


----------



## brogdale (Jul 13, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> Shammer strikes again


and Reeves.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 13, 2022)

brogdale said:


> and Reeves.


But not mortimer


----------



## Chz (Jul 13, 2022)

teqniq said:


> What the fuck happened here?



Likely they don't want it tied to UC - which does make some sort of sense. But given there's zero communication from them about it, we're left to wonder if they're complete and utter cunts, or just ordinary run-of-the-mill cunts.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 13, 2022)

Chz said:


> Likely they don't want it tied to UC - which does make some sort of sense. But given there's zero communication from them about it, we're left to wonder if they're complete and utter cunts, or just ordinary run-of-the-mill cunts.


Well we know they're cunts now for sure


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 13, 2022)

Knotted said:


> My thinking on Starmer and centrism and their likely success.
> 
> Two electoral advantages Starmer gives the LP:
> 
> ...


Denying free school meals to a large number of children is not harmless


----------



## two sheds (Jul 13, 2022)

Chz said:


> Likely they don't want it tied to UC - which does make some sort of sense. But given there's zero communication from them about it, we're left to wonder if they're complete and utter cunts, or just ordinary run-of-the-mill cunts.


Better kids tied to UC get it than nobody gets it though. They could have voted Yes and then lobbied to get it more widely applicable. Cunts' trick.


----------



## Plumdaff (Jul 13, 2022)

Labour to pledge ‘ironclad discipline’ with public finances

Inspirational stuff


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jul 13, 2022)

Plumdaff said:


> Labour to pledge ‘ironclad discipline’ with public finances
> 
> Inspirational stuff



Reeves is so awful, probably the second most contemptible member of the Starmer clique after Jess Philips.


----------



## NoXion (Jul 13, 2022)

Kids can't eat ambition. Fucking bootstraps bullshit, just fucking feed them already.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 13, 2022)




----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jul 13, 2022)

The39thStep said:


>




He certainly made at least one tool.


----------



## bluescreen (Jul 13, 2022)

Oh god, it's all so shabby and inadequate. What is wrong with him? It's all so fucking faux _British._ What is wrong with all of them?


----------



## billy_bob (Jul 14, 2022)

Security? Prosperity? _Respect_?

Jesus wept. I thought we could rely on them to at least _pretend _to be the left-wing party, but apparently not even that any more.


----------



## teqniq (Jul 15, 2022)

Fucksake:   









						Keir Starmer scraps pledge to end NHS private sector outsourcing
					

Labour leader suggests breaking promise could help him win election




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## NoXion (Jul 15, 2022)

Fucking useless piece of shit. Why the fuck wouldn't someone who likes NHS privatisation vote for the Tories? What is the fucking point of the Labour party?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 15, 2022)

billy_bob said:


> Security? Prosperity? _Respect_?
> 
> Jesus wept. I thought we could rely on them to at least _pretend _to be the left-wing party, but apparently not even that any more.


i suspect the involvement of gallowayite sleepers


----------



## hitmouse (Jul 15, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> i suspect the involvement of gallowayite sleepers


I imagine there were probably quite a few sleepers in the audience.


----------



## teqniq (Jul 15, 2022)

This is a helpful explainer:









						Hedge Fund Labour: why is the party of the NHS now receiving money from private health investors?
					

Keir Starmer and Wes Streeting among Labour MPs with funding from private health donors During 2015-2019, the Labour Party was firmly against NHS privatisation and distanced itself from New Labour&…




					inwhoseinterests.home.blog


----------



## PR1Berske (Jul 15, 2022)




----------



## kabbes (Jul 15, 2022)

NoXion said:


> What is the fucking point of the Labour party?


He needs this tattooed on his fucking forehead in mirror writing.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jul 16, 2022)

Starmer’s interview with Marr is so terrible. He’s been speaking to Tony Blair and he’s sounding increasingly indistinguishable from him. In the whole interview he only gave one straight answer: no electoral alliance with the SNP. The rest was vague platitudes. Most infuriating bit is around 10 mins in when he virtually admits that’s he’s ditched the pledges that got him elected as Labour leader including on public ownership, NHS privatisation and democratic reform. Such a cunt


----------



## rekil (Jul 16, 2022)

PR1Berske said:


>




Even if he wasn't banging on about his rightwinglibertarianness every 5 minutes, I'd still loathe that little panel show benchwarming cunt.

State of him in his tiny proud boy uniform. Fred Perry ruined forever.



Spoiler


----------



## brogdale (Jul 18, 2022)

Could have gone in other threads...but...my, oh my...


----------



## tommers (Jul 18, 2022)

brogdale said:


> Could have gone in other threads...but...my, oh my...
> 
> View attachment 333022


That's quite something.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 18, 2022)

Corbyn could perhaps call her as an expert witness in his libel case  

eta: are we really sure that's not a spoof brogdale? "what and who they really are"


----------



## tommers (Jul 18, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Corbyn could perhaps call her as an expert witness in his libel case
> 
> eta: are we really sure that's not a spoof brogdale? "what and who they really are"


It's still on her twitter account.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 18, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Corbyn could perhaps call her as an expert witness in his libel case
> 
> eta: are we really sure that's not a spoof brogdale? "what and who they really are"


Blue tick and all that.


----------



## teqniq (Jul 18, 2022)

Who or what are CAA?  And yes it’s still up on her feed. She seems to be getting rather a lot of flak for it, not that I have any sympathy.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 18, 2022)

Campaign Against Antisemitism (I had to check)

Unless she's calling out the Civil Aviation Authority or Chelmsford Angling Association which I wouldn't put past her.


----------



## billy_bob (Jul 18, 2022)

In these troubled times it's nice to have people like Hodge to remind you politicians were thick as pigshit and dishonest as the day is long in _all _eras.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 18, 2022)

billy_bob said:


> In these troubled times it's nice to have people like Hodge to remind you politicians were thick as pigshit and dishonest as the day is long in _all _eras.


this is margaret hodge, the paedophiles' friend, we're talking about


----------



## two sheds (Jul 18, 2022)

teqniq said:


> She seems to be getting rather a lot of flak for it, not that I have any sympathy.


Have antisemitic tropes been mentioned at all?


----------



## hitmouse (Jul 18, 2022)

teqniq said:


> Who or what are CAA?  And yes it’s still up on her feed. She seems to be getting rather a lot of flak for it, not that I have any sympathy.


Yep, it's in reference to this:


----------



## tommers (Jul 18, 2022)

teqniq said:


> Who or what are CAA?  And yes it’s still up on her feed. She seems to be getting rather a lot of flak for it, not that I have any sympathy.


She's an honorary patron of it.


----------



## tommers (Jul 18, 2022)

if there was ever an example of that sowing: fuck yes! yes!, reaping: what the fuck? meme then this is it.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jul 18, 2022)

brogdale said:


> Could have gone in other threads...but...my, oh my...
> 
> View attachment 333022



Beyond parody!


----------



## two sheds (Jul 18, 2022)

And fair criticism if he's using the Holocaust Memorial as a backdrop for PR without actually mentioning the holocaust.


----------



## hitmouse (Jul 18, 2022)

Can't believe I've just watched a Starmer video, but yes, no actual mention of the holocaust, there's just a few seconds of him silently strolling through it looking solemn before he goes back to wittering about security prosperity respect.
Has just reminded me of this, though:





						Totem and Taboo: Grindr remembers the holocaust
					

Grindr remembers. Do you?




					grindr-remembers.blogspot.com


----------



## tommers (Jul 18, 2022)




----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jul 18, 2022)

Maybe centrists will now wake up to the fact that the CAA exists for two reasons and neither are opposing anti-semitism: (1) support the tory party (2) support the slaughter and oppression of the Palestinians.


----------



## TopCat (Jul 18, 2022)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Maybe centrists will now wake up to the fact that the CAA exists for two reasons and neither are opposing anti-semitism: (1) support the tory party (2) support the slaughter and oppression of the Palestinians.


Surprised Starmer hasn’t  affiliated the LP to them.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jul 18, 2022)

Fucksake. I mean you expect shameless, cynical, hypocritical bullshit from politicians of course but that still takes some beating.


----------



## TopCat (Jul 18, 2022)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> Fucksake. I mean you expect shameless, cynical, hypocritical bullshit from politicians of course but that still takes some beating.


He believes in this


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jul 18, 2022)

TopCat said:


> He believes in this



Thinking more of Hodge/Smeeth etc really.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jul 19, 2022)

that's the smartest thing you've said all day


----------



## belboid (Jul 19, 2022)

Forde report due out today!

Well, 'due' out two years ago, but it might actually get published today.


----------



## TopCat (Jul 19, 2022)

belboid said:


> Forde report due out today!
> 
> Well, 'due' out two years ago, but it might actually get published today.


What’s is it about?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 19, 2022)

TopCat said:


> What’s is it about?











						Forde report on claims of racism, sexism and bullying to revive Labour tensions
					

Findings of inquiry into leaked report containing staff’s WhatsApp messages expected to be published




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## TopCat (Jul 19, 2022)

Ah that enquiry.


----------



## Plumdaff (Jul 19, 2022)

If it's anything like the EHRC report what it actually says, how it's reported, and how the Labour leadership responds to it and continues to act could all bear absolutely no relationship to one another.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jul 19, 2022)

the original spoke for itself tbf. I remember thinking 'this can't be real, the people in it will come out swinging with denials' and then they lawyered up and have since tried very very hard to find out who leaked it so they can lawfare the shit out of them.


----------



## killer b (Jul 19, 2022)

Plumdaff said:


> If it's anything like the EHRC report what it actually says, how it's reported, and how the Labour leadership responds to it and continues to act could all bear absolutely no relationship to one another.


I'm not anticipating there to be very much reporting about what it says at all.


----------



## andysays (Jul 19, 2022)

Anti-Semitism used as factional weapon within Labour, says report​


> Labour's left and right wings both treated the issue of anti-Semitism as a "factional weapon" when Jeremy Corbyn was leader, a report says. Martin Forde QC's inquiry finds general "toxicity" existed between Mr Corbyn's office and staff at party HQ. And he says the opposing groups used the issue of anti-Semitism as a weapon during their arguments, rather than confront the issue.


----------



## TopCat (Jul 19, 2022)

The original report was leaked. Has anyone got a copy? Will throw baubles etc


----------



## Knotted (Jul 19, 2022)

Anti-semitism surely still exists in the Labour Party and this was a serious faux pas by Starmer that smacks of insensitivity and even complacency on the issue now it's served it's factional purpose. CAA have a point.


----------



## hitmouse (Jul 19, 2022)

andysays said:


> Anti-Semitism used as factional weapon within Labour, says report​


Any idea when the Pope Catholicism report is out?


----------



## Leighsw2 (Jul 19, 2022)

Love how an enquiry into racism, sexism and bullying in Labour (following the 'Labour Leaks' report) has strangely morphed into a 'report about factionalism' according to the MSM. So apparently they're all as bad as each other! Who knew? Interesting to discover that, if you react to someone calling you an anti-semite on the basis of absolutely no evidence whatsoever, that also means you're 'weaponising' the issue. 'Bothside-ism' - a wonderful way to create moral equivalence between the bullies and their victims.

Also reassuring to find out - via 'Labour sources' - there was absolutely no 'conspiracy' to lose the 2017 General Election by the Labour bureaucracy. Even though the report tells us they set up a secret parallel election campaign that spent £135,000 of the Party's money propping up right-wing candidates in safe seats (while winnable marginals were starved of cash).

Isn't the Labour Party marvellous?


----------



## Raheem (Jul 20, 2022)

.

(think I misunderstood)


----------



## chainsawjob (Jul 20, 2022)




----------



## tommers (Jul 20, 2022)

TopCat said:


> The original report was leaked. Has anyone got a copy? Will throw baubles etc


I've got the Forde report if that's the one you mean.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jul 20, 2022)

The reporting is very much along the lines of, 'both as bad as each other' but surely only one side actively sabotaged the party's chances at an election?

E2a: The report itself whinges about the racist bullying twats who had their whatsapp messages leaked not being given 'right of reply'.


----------



## steeplejack (Jul 20, 2022)

Starmer staggeringly shit at Johnson's last PMQs today. A mortally wounded opponent and most of the MPs ended up laughing at him. Enabled Johnson to go back to genial chat show host making Starmer looking like a humourless parson at a children's party.

Being attacked by Starmer is like being savaged by an out of date celery. Genuine head in hands stuff.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jul 20, 2022)

Statement from the Great Boss Man: 

The Forde Report casts an important light on events in the Labour Party in recent years. My election as leader in 2015 was a major shock in British politics. It wasn’t about me, but a popular demand for anti-austerity politics following the 2008 financial crisis and 35 years of market fundamentalism.

Despite overwhelming support from members and affiliates, powerful groups in the party found that change hard to come to terms with. This led to a conflict in Labour that created a toxic environment, which the Forde Report lays bare. In any party there are groups and factions, but the resistance we were faced with went far beyond that.
It included the secret diversion of campaign funds by senior HQ staff in the 2017 election, which Forde rightly condemns as “unequivocally wrong”. Whether or not that prevented the election of a Labour government, it was dishonest. In a democratic party those decisions should be taken by the elected leadership. Too often the will of the membership was overridden by people who thought they shouldn’t have had a say in the first place.

Whatever arguments there are about specific findings, this report should help us see a path forward. The politics of the many, not the few, are more needed in this country than ever. We suffer a cost of living scandal while billionaire wealth soars and climate breakdown accelerates while fossil fuel companies boast record profits. For the Labour Party to be the vehicle for a better and sustainable world, things need to change.

The appalling behaviour that Forde calls out, including the repulsive racism and sexism shown to Diane Abbott and others, should have no place in a progressive party. Toxic factionalism is far from over - nor are persistent problems of racism and sexism - and action must be taken, as Forde makes clear.

Most of all, the Party needs to decide what it is for and who decides that. Are we a democratic socialist party, run by members and affiliated unions, that aims for a fundamental transfer of wealth and power from the few to the many? Or are we something else?


----------



## Thaw (Jul 20, 2022)

Did The Great Boss Man give a reason for not being interviewed?


----------



## Calamity1971 (Jul 22, 2022)

This will go well. 








						Exclusive: S*n columnist Starmer making ‘secret’ visit to Liverpool on Monday morning
					

Visit cloaked in secrecy after ‘Labour’ leader wrote for hated Murdoch rag and said he’d do it again Keir Starmer’s team has circulated a note to staff and journalists to no…




					skwawkbox.org


----------



## Calamity1971 (Jul 22, 2022)

Calamity1971 said:


> This will go well.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He's speaking here, the irony.


----------



## emanymton (Jul 23, 2022)

Calamity1971 said:


> He's speaking here, the irony.
> View attachment 333944


Wow that is an ugly building.


----------



## steeplejack (Jul 23, 2022)

sorry but


----------



## nino_savatte (Jul 25, 2022)

Starmer's big idea is "Buy British", which if memory serves, was Harold Wilson's idea back in 1968-1969. It was a flop then and it's likely to go down like a bucket of cold sick now. 








						Labour will not nationalise rail, water or energy, Rachel Reeves says
					

Shadow chancellor says policies do not fit within her plans to restrict public spending




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## Chilli.s (Jul 25, 2022)

nino_savatte said:


> Starmer's big idea is "Buy British", which if memory serves, was Harold Wilson's idea back in 1968-1969. It was a flop then and it's likely to go down like a bucket of cold sick now.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Re-nationalising would make everyone "buy british" but would perhaps considerably curtail the kind of advisory roles that politicians like to have working for big money and minimal hours after they are done with public service


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 25, 2022)

nino_savatte said:


> Starmer's big idea is "Buy British", which if memory serves, was Harold Wilson's idea back in 1968-1969. It was a flop then and it's likely to go down like a bucket of cold sick now.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I wonder who'll replace sir bruce forsyth on the re-release of 'I'm backing Britain'


----------



## ska invita (Jul 25, 2022)

Support British Capitalists! Trickle Down Begins At Home! Boycott Foreign Electricity!


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 25, 2022)

nino_savatte said:


> Starmer's big idea is "Buy British", which if memory serves, was Harold Wilson's idea back in 1968-1969. It was a flop then and it's likely to go down like a bucket of cold sick now.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wilson tried to jump on the ' I'm backing Britain ' campaign which originally was about people volunteering for unpaid overtime.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 25, 2022)

"Will focus on economic growth" = "won't be too fussed about doing something about conditions for the poorest" thank god for trickle down eh.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 25, 2022)

two sheds said:


> "Will focus on economic growth" = "won't be too fussed about doing something about conditions for the poorest" thank god for trickle down eh.


Worse than that, focusing on economic growth = doing fuck all for the climate as well


----------



## philosophical (Jul 25, 2022)

‘I’m backing Britain’ was started organically by some office workers I believe, who decided to work an extra hour a day for free.
It was a short lived craze, certainly exploited by politicians and business.


----------



## Johnny Vodka (Jul 25, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> Worse than that, focusing on economic growth = doing fuck all for the climate as well



Indeed.  My jaw dropped when I read that.  He just doesn't get it, does he?


----------



## TopCat (Jul 25, 2022)

Interest rates are on the up and will continue to climb for some years. This is designed to choke growth. Not sure how much Kier has thought this through.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 25, 2022)

TopCat said:


> Interest rates are on the up and will continue to climb for some years. This is designed to choke growth. Not sure how much Kier has thought this through.


shammer doesn't do thought or he'd be making a better fist of being leader.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 25, 2022)

From McDonnell’s economic advisor. 

As Meadway make clear the programme that Starmer has set out would be a significant change to British economic policy since Thatcher and a more economically interventionist and corporatist state would be the result. This is important. 

However, even if enacted, the strategy doesn’t address how the cost of living crisis would be ameliorated by a Labour Government. The back sliding on public ownership of key services and utilities is - even on public opinion terms - bafflingly stupid - and what is really lacking is a genuine plan to redistribute wealth from the 1%.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 25, 2022)

Well he lied to persuade Labour members to become Labour leader, no reason to trust anything he says to persuade people to become Prime Minister.


----------



## Rob Ray (Jul 25, 2022)

Having read it, I think "the most substantive thing Starmer's said about the economy" is about as damning as faint praise gets. From what I can see the sum total is:

I like growth and want to balance the budget (wow, such perspective, so unique)
Climate Investment Pledge worth £28bn a year until 2030, of which £3bn will be for the steel industry
We'll be doing some faffing about with public procurement which might divert more govt money to local firms
Jim O’Neill (spelled wrong, former Tory Treasury minister) is gonna do a report for us on how to be nicer to big business
Scrap business rates for "something fairer"
We'll set up an "industrial strategy" quango
Absolutely pathetic.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jul 25, 2022)

.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 25, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> Having read it, I think "the most substantive thing Starmer's said about the economy" is about as damning as faint praise gets. From what I can see the sum total is:
> 
> I like growth and want to balance the budget (wow, such perspective, so unique)
> Climate Investment Pledge worth £28bn a year until 2030, of which £3bn will be for the steel industry
> ...


never mind being tory lite, shammer's just lite


----------



## PR1Berske (Jul 25, 2022)

**


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jul 25, 2022)

PR1Berske said:


> **




Fucking nailed it! Eternal glory to that woman!


----------



## steveseagull (Jul 25, 2022)

That is Audrey White, who successfully sued the Jewish Chronicle for smearing her. 

Anyway, nice to see his trip to Liverpool went as successfully as expected.


----------



## steveseagull (Jul 25, 2022)

Good grief


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Jul 25, 2022)

PR1Berske said:


> **



Why anyone gives a fuck about the capitalist, reformist, anti-working class labour party is totally beyond me. Resistance lol what a joke.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jul 25, 2022)

steveseagull said:


> That is Audrey White, who successfully sued the Jewish Chronicle for smearing her.
> 
> Anyway, nice to see his trip to Liverpool went as successfully as expected.



That was a 10/10, could not possibly be better takedown of the worm Starmer. Only response he's got is to get his goons to take her away.


----------



## planetgeli (Jul 25, 2022)

Bit ashamed I've never heard of her tbh. She has history. She even had a film made about her with Glenda Jackson playing her.









						Business as Usual (film) - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## two sheds (Jul 25, 2022)

SpookyFrank said:


> That was a 10/10, could not possibly be better takedown of the worm Starmer. Only response he's gotmis to get his goons to take her away.


Yes I was waiting for his reply forensically showing her where she was going wrong.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Jul 25, 2022)

The worst thing that could have happened to Corbyn and his cronies would have been getting into power and being revealed for the bourgeois, anti-working class scum that they all are.


----------



## planetgeli (Jul 25, 2022)

AmateurAgitator said:


> The worst thing that could have happened to Corbyn and his cronies would have been getting into power and being revealed to be the bourgeois, anti-working class scum that they all are.



I hope you never go grey AmateurAgitator. It'll really confuse you.


----------



## steveseagull (Jul 25, 2022)




----------



## NoXion (Jul 25, 2022)

AmateurAgitator said:


> The worst thing that could have happened to Corbyn and his cronies would have been getting into power and being revealed for the bourgeois, anti-working class scum that they all are.



Yeah, we get it. You're such a revolutionary.


----------



## JimW (Jul 25, 2022)

planetgeli said:


> Bit ashamed I've never heard of her tbh. She has history. She even had a film made about her with Glenda Jackson playing her.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This link off there is good: Audrey White - TUC 150 Stories


> You can’t tell people who haven’t experienced solidarity what solidarity is like – it’s priceless.


----------



## Rob Ray (Jul 25, 2022)

> The worst thing that could have happened to Corbyn and his cronies would have been getting into power and being revealed for the bourgeois, anti-working class scum that they all are.


While I agree with the general sentiment that Corbyn's Labour would have been a mess in power, it's a bit of an overkill to label the entire phenomenon "bourgeois, anti-working class scum." An important distinction to draw is that someone like Corbyn, for example, genuinely does want the best, from his perspective, for working class people. He wastes a lot of time and energy because his analysis is flawed, assuming that the State's power can be repurposed to aid the working class without needing to build independent working class power when, as has now again been demonstrated for our modern context, it can't be. But that doesn't mean he's hateful.

There's lots of scumbags in Labour, no doubt, but there's also very well-meaning and decent folk, whose choices reflect where they feel they can make a difference. We gain little from sneering at them.


----------



## Dystopiary (Jul 25, 2022)

Here he is pretending to denounce the Scum, pretending he cares. 

 

Fuck Starmer, fuck the Labour Party.


----------



## elbows (Jul 25, 2022)

philosophical said:


> ‘I’m backing Britain’ was started organically by some office workers I believe, who decided to work an extra hour a day for free.
> It was a short lived craze, certainly exploited by politicians and business.


Yes I've just been reading the wikipedia entry about it, which includes this bit, oops lol:



> The campaign received official endorsement by the Prime Minister, Harold Wilson, but it found that being perceived as government-endorsed was a mixed blessing. The Union Flag logo encouraged by the campaign became highly visible on the high streets, and attempts were made to take over the campaign by Robert Maxwell, who wanted to change its focus into an appeal to 'Buy British', but the campaign's own T-shirts were made in Portugal. After a few months without any noticeable effect on individual companies or the economy generally, interest flagged amid much embarrassment about some of the ways in which the campaign had been pursued and supported.
> 
> It has come to be regarded as an iconic example of a failed attempt to transform British economic prospects.



Also features other amazing details such as:



> On Monday 8 January, Pye Records issued a 45 rpm single of the song "I'm Backing Britain" supporting the campaign. Written by Tony Hatch and Jackie Trent, and sung by Bruce Forsyth, the chorus included "The feeling is growing, so let's keep it going, the good times are blowing our way". All involved in making the single took cuts in their fees or royalties so that the single sold for 5 shillings instead of the going rate of 7s 4+1⁄2d. Forsyth happily endorsed the campaign: "The country has always done its best when it is up against the wall. If everyone realises what we are up against we can get out of trouble easily."[30] However, the song did not make the charts;[31] it sold only 7319 copies.[32] Reviewing the single, Derek Johnson of the _New Musical Express_ commented "If you fancy five bob's worth of propaganda, good luck to you.











						I'm Backing Britain - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## Rob Ray (Jul 25, 2022)

Before he was a national dance treasure Forsyth had a less salubrious line scabbing on Equity with fellow dickhead Norman Wisdom.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Jul 25, 2022)

Most of the time discussing politics on Urban is a complete waste of time due to the fact that the politics of most of you on here is absolute dogshit. The majority of you are liberals or statists of one type or another meaning that you are really no different to conservatives and are reactionary in your own way - more so than you will ever realise. And alot of you are actually very narrow minded people who stubbornly insist on clinging on to failed politics that has achieved fuck all and that you should have moved on from to try alternatives. You've stuck with politics that has actually done much more harm than good and you keep going down a path that has repeatedly failed. But it doesn't really matter because you're just a tiny, irrelevant, small minded clique who have achieved fuck all and will continue to do just that. Too many of you are blinkered, pompus people who think you know it all and most of the time discussing politics on here is completely pointless. Too many of you don't really want genuine social change.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 25, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> Before he was a national dance treasure Forsyth had a less salubrious line scabbing on Equity with fellow dickhead Norman Wisdom.



Surprised Norman Wisdom's popularity in Albania didn't suffer


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 25, 2022)

elbows said:


> Yes I've just been reading the wikipedia entry about it, which includes this bit, oops lol:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm surprised the five or ten times I've posted that song have entirely passed you by


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Jul 25, 2022)

NoXion said:


> Yeah, we get it. You're such a revolutionary.


Its not about me at all, although I am sick of this thoroughly fucking dire, barbaric system.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Jul 25, 2022)

planetgeli said:


> I hope you never go grey AmateurAgitator. It'll really confuse you.


I've already started to go grey but this is just stupid drivel anyway.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 25, 2022)

AmateurAgitator said:


> Most of the time discussing politics on Urban is a complete waste of time due to the fact that the politics of most of you on here is absolute dogshit. The majority of you are liberals or statists of one type or another meaning that you are really no different to conservatives and are reactionary in your own way - more so than you will ever realise. And alot of you are actually very narrow minded people who stubbornly insist on clinging on to failed politics that has achieved fuck all and that you should have moved on from to try alternatives. You've stuck with politics that has actually done much more harm than good and you keep going down a path that has repeatedly failed. But it doesn't really matter because you're just a tiny, irrelevant, small minded clique who have achieved fuck all and will continue to do just that. Too many of you are blinkered, pompus people who think you know it all and most of the time discussing politics on here is completely pointless. Too many of you don't really want genuine social change.


Whoop whoop


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Jul 25, 2022)

krtek a houby said:


> Whoop whoop


Yeah you're a knobhead, we know.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 25, 2022)

AmateurAgitator said:


> Yeah you're a knobhead, we know.


And you're the only revolutionary in the village, etc

If the community fucks you off so much, perhaps take your ennui somewhere else?


----------



## Rimbaud (Jul 25, 2022)

AmateurAgitator said:


> Most of the time discussing politics on Urban is a complete waste of time due to the fact that the politics of most of you on here is absolute dogshit. The majority of you are liberals or statists of one type or another meaning that you are really no different to conservatives and are reactionary in your own way - more so than you will ever realise. And alot of you are actually very narrow minded people who stubbornly insist on clinging on to failed politics that has achieved fuck all and that you should have moved on from to try alternatives. You've stuck with politics that has actually done much more harm than good and you keep going down a path that has repeatedly failed. But it doesn't really matter because you're just a tiny, irrelevant, small minded clique who have achieved fuck all and will continue to do just that. Too many of you are blinkered, pompus people who think you know it all and most of the time discussing politics on here is completely pointless. Too many of you don't really want genuine social change.



If your politics aren't capable of convincing the generally anarchist-adjacent urban75 demographic, then good luck with the population at large.

Everyone here does want genuine social change but the question is, how to bring it about? A lot of the anarchist scene is totally inaccessible and doesn't have any discernible impact on public life. Most people aren't even aware anarchist organisations even exist, and beyond the political anoraks of Urban75 and similar virtually nobody in this country can name an anarchist organisation. I don't have any problem with anarchist ideology, I agree with a lot of anarcho-syndicalist ideas, but I don't see any practical way to join the anarchist cause. You can't blame everyone for not becoming anarchists when the anarchist organisations are impossible to get involved with and don't seem to do very much even if you do get involved. 

There is a difference between having some kind of vision for the final emancipation of the proletariat and wanting some practical improvements in the short term. One doesn't necessarily contradict the other.


----------



## elbows (Jul 25, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> I'm surprised the five or ten times I've posted that sing have entirely passed you by



At least one of those occasions hadnt entirely passed me by. But the details of the campaign it was related to do fade in my mind over time and when it came up again now I found that I needed to refresh them, and then when I did I was struck all over again by the absurdities and failures of that dubious campaign.


----------



## Leighsw2 (Jul 25, 2022)

nino_savatte said:


> Starmer's big idea is "Buy British", which if memory serves, was Harold Wilson's idea back in 1968-1969. It was a flop then and it's likely to go down like a bucket of cold sick now.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Good point, though I would have thought the clincher is you can only 'buy British' if it's actually made here and most things aren't! (to be fair to Wilson, 'made in Britain' was actually a thing back in 1968.)


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jul 26, 2022)

Great Boss Man No 2 batters revisionist Starmer clique. Genuinely filed with sadness watching this reminding myself that this could have been our chancellor instead of Rishi Sunak:


----------



## ska invita (Jul 26, 2022)

Distinctively British poorly-attended senior management sales conference midmorning teleconference update


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 26, 2022)

ska invita said:


> Distinctively British poorly-attended senior management sales conference midmorning teleconference update
> 
> View attachment 334519


Wtf does "distinctively British" actually mean in that context?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jul 26, 2022)

ska invita said:


> Distinctively British poorly-attended senior management sales conference midmorning teleconference update
> 
> View attachment 334519



Quite impressive to have a list of five things without any of them actually being things.


----------



## teqniq (Jul 26, 2022)

What is this drivel?


----------



## Spandex (Jul 26, 2022)

Starmer does realise he's not in the running for the Tory leadership doesn't he?

All these position statements he's coming out with seem to put him somewhere between Hunt & Tugenhat. I know it usually takes him a week or so to focus group and fine tune his positions before unleashing them on the public, so the timing does seem about right for him to be jostling for position in the first round on 13 July.


----------



## NoXion (Jul 26, 2022)

ska invita said:


> Distinctively British poorly-attended senior management sales conference midmorning teleconference update
> 
> View attachment 334519



Why do Starmerites insist on going for such style over substance nonsense, when their "style" is the most unoriginal and insipid version of corporate blahspeak?


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Jul 26, 2022)

AmateurAgitator said:


> Most of the time discussing politics on Urban is a complete waste of time due to the fact that the politics of most of you on here is absolute dogshit. The majority of you are liberals or statists of one type or another meaning that you are really no different to conservatives and are reactionary in your own way - more so than you will ever realise. And alot of you are actually very narrow minded people who stubbornly insist on clinging on to failed politics that has achieved fuck all and that you should have moved on from to try alternatives. You've stuck with politics that has actually done much more harm than good and you keep going down a path that has repeatedly failed. But it doesn't really matter because you're just a tiny, irrelevant, small minded clique who have achieved fuck all and will continue to do just that. Too many of you are blinkered, pompus people who think you know it all and most of the time discussing politics on here is completely pointless. Too many of you don't really want genuine social change.


Congratulations on demonstrating exactly why anything even approaching anarchism will never gain a foot hold in this country.

Up their own arse I'm more revolutionary than you types were two a penny in my brief time hanging around anarchist groups in my early 20s. It was precisely the sort of bellendry you display here that put me off bothering to engage with it. The occasional book fair is still a good shout for badges though


----------



## planetgeli (Jul 26, 2022)

AmateurAgitator said:


> I've already started to go grey



Wow that's really sad. I genuinely thought you were 16.



AmateurAgitator said:


> Most of the time discussing politics on Urban is a complete waste of time due to the fact that the politics of most of you on here is absolute dogshit. The majority of you are liberals or statists of one type or another meaning that you are really no different to conservatives and are reactionary in your own way - more so than you will ever realise. And alot of you are actually very narrow minded people who stubbornly insist on clinging on to failed politics that has achieved fuck all and that you should have moved on from to try alternatives. You've stuck with politics that has actually done much more harm than good and you keep going down a path that has repeatedly failed. But it doesn't really matter because you're just a tiny, irrelevant, small minded clique who have achieved fuck all and will continue to do just that. Too many of you are blinkered, pompus people who think you know it all and most of the time discussing politics on here is completely pointless. Too many of you don't really want genuine social change.



How is that anarchism in one bedroom policy coming along?


----------



## teqniq (Jul 26, 2022)

Confusion Over Labour Policy On Rail Ownership As Shadow Cabinet At Odds


----------



## philosophical (Jul 26, 2022)

Starmer said ‘make Brexit work’.
He is yet to define what Brexit is.
If it means ‘leave’ his first task is to solve the issue of the post leave land border between the UK and the EU.
Perhaps he could ask Nicola Sturgeon who proposes a land border between Scotland and England how those land borders will work.


----------



## JimW (Jul 26, 2022)

krtek a houby said:


> Wtf does "distinctively British" actually mean in that context?


We've had our chips.


----------



## ska invita (Jul 26, 2022)

krtek a houby said:


> Wtf does "distinctively British" actually mean in that context?


British people understand this distinctiveness innately - if you are having to ask you are, I would expect, a bit foreign


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 26, 2022)

krtek a houby said:


> Wtf does "distinctively British" actually mean in that context?


Bloody awful


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 26, 2022)

ska invita said:


> British people understand this distinctiveness innately - if you are having to ask you are, I would expect, a bit foreign


He's no chance of getting in, has he


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jul 26, 2022)

krtek a houby said:


> He's no chance of getting in, has he



I think his strategy is to avoid offering anything hopeful or decent so that the rightwing press won't go after him. With a tory government in crisis and a media that isn't viciously hostile I think Starmer is banking on winning as 'the least worst option'. Blairism round two essentially. From a strategic point of view it's not wholly implausible in my view, no matter how depressing it is.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jul 26, 2022)




----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jul 26, 2022)




----------



## Rob Ray (Jul 26, 2022)

planetgeli said:


> Wow that's really sad. I genuinely thought you were 16.


I've met a few older folks who do this, usually relatively recent converts still in the initial flush of pseudo-religious zeal. The vast majority of anarchos who've been around for any length of time are more "can we at least try and get this one thing done before everything goes wrong" than "you're all reformists I tells ya." They usually burn out fairly quickly and move on to the next big thing they can be aggressively better than everyone else about. Leninism is popular, or occasionally the actual church.


----------



## Rob Ray (Jul 26, 2022)

Jeff Robinson said:


>



Stretching the meaning of the word "leadership" beyond the galaxy's outer rim there.


----------



## Plumdaff (Jul 26, 2022)

krtek a houby said:


> Wtf does "distinctively British" actually mean in that context?


Racism. Deport people to Rwanda, but _compassionately. _


----------



## steveseagull (Jul 26, 2022)

I think it is safe to say that trip to Liverpool was an absolutely stupid idea. Not only did he get berated by the Merseyside Pensioner Association, he also got asked on BBC Radio Merseyside about the Forde report which he shrugged off as unimportant and started ranting on about the sacred NATO cow. 

Needless to say, black MPs are not impressed with Mr Anti Racist.


----------



## Knotted (Jul 26, 2022)

teqniq said:


> Confusion Over Labour Policy On Rail Ownership As Shadow Cabinet At Odds



I think the position is perfectly clear ie. yes but no.

Seriously though, this is amazingly shambolic.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jul 26, 2022)

steveseagull said:


> I think it is safe to say that trip to Liverpool was an absolutely stupid idea. Not only did he get berated by the Merseyside Pensioner Association, he also got asked on BBC Radio Merseyside about the Forde report which he shrugged off as unimportant and started ranting on about the sacred NATO cow.
> 
> Needless to say, black MPs are not impressed with Mr Anti Racist.




Starmer cares about anti-semitism because rightwingers and centrists weaponised it to attack the left. He doesn't care about anti-black racism and Islamophobia because rightwingers and centrists are fine with them.


----------



## steveseagull (Jul 26, 2022)




----------



## Brainaddict (Jul 26, 2022)

AmateurAgitator said:


> Most of the time discussing politics on Urban is a complete waste of time due to the fact that the politics of most of you on here is absolute dogshit. The majority of you are liberals or statists of one type or another meaning that you are really no different to conservatives and are reactionary in your own way - more so than you will ever realise. And alot of you are actually very narrow minded people who stubbornly insist on clinging on to failed politics that has achieved fuck all and that you should have moved on from to try alternatives. You've stuck with politics that has actually done much more harm than good and you keep going down a path that has repeatedly failed. But it doesn't really matter because you're just a tiny, irrelevant, small minded clique who have achieved fuck all and will continue to do just that. Too many of you are blinkered, pompus people who think you know it all and most of the time discussing politics on here is completely pointless. Too many of you don't really want genuine social change.


We enjoy hanging out with you too.

Politics is to a large degree about finding allies. If at some point you realise you've no-one else on your side at all, it's really no use blaming other people. The only common denominator in your inability to find people to work with is you. You've got to struggle together with the real people you meet, not the fantasy people you wish existed.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Jul 26, 2022)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Starmer cares about anti-semitism because rightwingers and centrists weaponised it to attack the left. He doesn't care about anti-black racism and Islamophobia because rightwingers and centrists are fine with them.


I'm sure you're right here but the fact is that there was a bit of a problem with antisemitism with Corbyn as leader, it wasn't dealt with properly and it involved Corbyn himself.

For example, Corbyn praised and promoted this nutcase and invited him to parliament :









						Raed Salah - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Jul 26, 2022)

Brainaddict said:


> We enjoy hanging out with you too.
> 
> Politics is to a large degree about finding allies. If at some point you realise you've no-one else on your side at all, it's really no use blaming other people. The only common denominator in your inability to find people to work with is you. You've got to struggle together with the real people you meet, not the fantasy people you wish existed.


Whatever. At the end of the day I don't have to 'work with' everyone on Urban.


----------



## Brainaddict (Jul 26, 2022)

AmateurAgitator said:


> Whatever. At the end of the day I don't have to 'work with' everyone on Urban.


Are you finding it easy to find people to work with in real life? Cos with the attitude you displayed above I would guess you must be finding it really difficult.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Jul 26, 2022)

Brainaddict said:


> Cos with the attitude you displayed above I would guess you must be finding it really difficult.


Nope


----------



## Rimbaud (Jul 26, 2022)

Jeff Robinson said:


> I think his strategy is to avoid offering anything hopeful or decent so that the rightwing press won't go after him. With a tory government in crisis and a media that isn't viciously hostile I think Starmer is banking on winning as 'the least worst option'. Blairism round two essentially. From a strategic point of view it's not wholly implausible in my view, no matter how depressing it is.



They'll go after him anyway.

When it comes to the general election, everytime he says he will do something they will gleefully bring up the lies he told in the leadership election to show how he can't be trusted to follow through.


----------



## belboid (Jul 26, 2022)

AmateurAgitator said:


> Whatever. At the end of the day I don't have to 'work with' everyone on Urban.


You do have to go and tidy your bedroom though


----------



## steveseagull (Jul 26, 2022)

Why is all this anarchist stuff on the Starmer thread? Starmer the wet fucking wipe has probably never even kicked a football though some old twats greenhouse window.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jul 26, 2022)

steveseagull said:


> Why is all this anarchist stuff on the Starmer thread? Starmer the wet fucking wipe has probably never even kicked a football though some old twats greenhouse window.



Is it a window, if it's in a greenhouse, or is it a wall?


----------



## ska invita (Jul 26, 2022)

Knotted said:


> I think the position is perfectly clear ie. yes but no.


No, its No but also shut up


----------



## teqniq (Jul 26, 2022)

Interesting opinion piece here. Someone at the Independent has decided to break the otherwise general media silence on the Forde report and the right wing of the Labour party:









						Opinion: As the Forde report shows, Labour’s right wing is the source of its problems
					

The fact that people within his own party were terrified of Corbyn begs the question: which part of supporting the working class did they disagree with?




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## steveseagull (Jul 26, 2022)

The Forde report seems to be gaining some media traction









						Diane Abbott urges Starmer to act over racism in Labour party
					

MP says she had received no apologies after sexist and racist remarks made about her was revealed in Forde report




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## steveseagull (Jul 26, 2022)

And Dawn Butler in The Voice









						Dawn Butler: Labour needs to do better, and the Forde report is the opportunity
					

Dawn Butler writes that Labour's response to the inquiry findings was not good enough. The party need to take racism more seriously.




					www.voice-online.co.uk


----------



## PR1Berske (Jul 27, 2022)




----------



## emanymton (Jul 27, 2022)

SpookyFrank said:


> Is it a window, if it's in a greenhouse, or is it a wall?


Some panes around head height could be designated as windows maybe.


----------



## emanymton (Jul 27, 2022)

emanymton said:


> Some panes around head height could be designated as windows maybe.


Or is the fram le the wall and all the glass panes windows in it?


----------



## brogdale (Jul 27, 2022)

And there you have it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 27, 2022)

brogdale said:


> And there you have it.



I take it he stayed too long there


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 27, 2022)

brogdale said:


> And there you have it.



Fucking unions should disaffiliate from labour


----------



## brogdale (Jul 27, 2022)

The absolute state of these fucking cunts...read and weep.


----------



## tommers (Jul 27, 2022)

These people man.


----------



## oryx (Jul 27, 2022)

brogdale said:


> The absolute state of these fucking cunts...read and weep.
> 
> View attachment 334756


 

I thought his speech was good. He made the case for supporting the strikes while making a good argument for Labour being in power and what would be different.

Disgusted that he has been sacked. I don't think other shadow ministers who've gone 'off-message' have all been sacked, have they?

Fucking factional bullshit yet again.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jul 27, 2022)




----------



## Beermoth (Jul 27, 2022)

Literally no difference between Labour and Tory besides the rosettes.


----------



## tommers (Jul 27, 2022)

Genuinely. What the actual fuck? These people are horrendous.


----------



## teqniq (Jul 27, 2022)

brogdale said:


> The absolute state of these fucking cunts...read and weep.
> 
> View attachment 334756


Fucking weasel words. Utter fucking scumbags.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jul 27, 2022)

“King Keir” throwing his authoritarianism about. 

Who knew?!


----------



## teqniq (Jul 27, 2022)

Although he is in a safe Labour seat, and as such what I vote will make little difference, with each passing day I am finding it harder and harder to find good reasons to vote for my Labour MP.


----------



## JimW (Jul 27, 2022)

Collective responsibility is a thing, and it's well seen how closely they all held to it during Corbyn's tenure


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 27, 2022)

Jess Phillips has, I am very reliably told, just walked straight past the RMT picket in Birmingham without even stopping to talk let alone show support/solidarity. 

The fraudulent 'salt of the earth working class Brummie' mask slips again....


----------



## ska invita (Jul 27, 2022)

brogdale said:


> And there you have it.




a brilliant development  bring this shit on - big up that man Sam Tarry


----------



## RainbowTown (Jul 27, 2022)

The Labour Party 2022 under Starmer:

Always on the side of the working class.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jul 27, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> Fucking unions should disaffiliate from labour


The sooner the better.


Smokeandsteam said:


> Jess Phillips has, I am very reliably told, just walked straight past the RMT picket in Birmingham without even stopping to talk let alone show support/solidarity.
> 
> The fraudulent 'salt of the earth working class Brummie' mask slips again....


that mask slipped donks ago tbf


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jul 27, 2022)

Supporting strikes is such a fucking no-brainer, especially now when there will only be more to come in more sectors.

The reason Starmer won't allow labour to do it is not strategic or political, he won't allow it because he's an authoritarian and a bootlicker to the marrow of his bones.


----------



## mojo pixy (Jul 27, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> I've met a few older folks who do this, usually relatively recent converts still in the initial flush of pseudo-religious zeal. The vast majority of anarchos who've been around for any length of time are more "can we at least try and get this one thing done before everything goes wrong" than "you're all reformists I tells ya." They usually burn out fairly quickly and move on to the next big thing they can be aggressively better than everyone else about. Leninism is popular, or occasionally the actual church.


Also, conspiracism. That way you get to call people "sheeple" all the time and feel good about it  I mean, if I had a penny for every angry anarchist I've known that ultimately fell down a conspiranoid / FMotL rabbit hole, I'd have .. oh at least 8p by now


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jul 27, 2022)

Shamelessly nicked from twitter...


----------



## ska invita (Jul 27, 2022)

oryx said:


> I thought his speech was good. He made the case for supporting the strikes while making a good argument for Labour being in power and what would be different.


yeah i was impressed by his ability to be positive about Starmer and Labour with a straight face (despite knowing it was bullshit!)


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jul 27, 2022)

teqniq said:


> Although he is in a safe Labour seat, and as such what I vote will make little difference, with each passing day I am finding it harder and harder to find good reasons to vote for my Labour MP.





ska invita said:


> a brilliant development  bring this shit on - big up that man Sam Tarry



Radio London reporting possible deselection on its way...


----------



## teqniq (Jul 27, 2022)

Mike Lynch on Starmer, he's not exactly.... enthusiastic:


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jul 27, 2022)

ska invita said:


> a brilliant development  bring this shit on - big up that man Sam Tarry




WOKE:



BROKE:


----------



## JimW (Jul 27, 2022)

Looks like he hits the gym, suggest him and Kieth battle it out Queensbury rules for the crown.


----------



## Johnny Vodka (Jul 27, 2022)

brogdale said:


> And there you have it.




Oh ffs.  I don't know whether to laugh or cry.


----------



## ska invita (Jul 27, 2022)

Puddy_Tat said:


> Radio London reporting possible deselection on its way...


deselection of who?


----------



## JimW (Jul 27, 2022)

ska invita said:


> deselection of who?


Tarry it seems. Sure it will be in an open and democratic process.


----------



## Leighsw2 (Jul 27, 2022)

brogdale said:


> The absolute state of these fucking cunts...read and weep.
> 
> View attachment 334756


The unerring ability of Starmer to make it all about Labour rather than the Tories cost of living crisis and solidarity with workers trying to protect wages that are still lower, on average, than they were in 2008.


----------



## agricola (Jul 27, 2022)

JimW said:


> Tarry it seems. Sure it will be in an open and democratic process.



that was already happening prior to this, albeit of course deselecting sitting Labour MPs is no longer the* Absolute Marxism* that it was between 2015 and 2020


----------



## ska invita (Jul 27, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> Fucking unions should disaffiliate from labour


Seems like a good day to fire up Twitter, first post is from an angry Sharon Graham... It's not going to go down well this


----------



## PR1Berske (Jul 27, 2022)




----------



## tommers (Jul 27, 2022)

ska invita said:


> Seems like a good day to fire up Twitter, first post is from an angry Sharon Graham... It's not going to go down well this


Read the replies to it.


----------



## Leighsw2 (Jul 27, 2022)

Puddy_Tat said:


> Radio London reporting possible deselection on its way...


He represents Mike 'TIG' Gapes old seat in Ilford, next to baby-face Wes Streating, and the Gapes-Streating faction have 'triggered' a reselection process and are trying to deselect him. This may not be smart by the Labour Right as Tarry is soft left, allied to Angela Raynor, accepted a front-bench position from Starmer and he's been pretty loyal. If he is deselected, a lot of other soft-left MPs may feel similarly threatened and it wouldn't take many to join the SCG to trigger a leadership election.


----------



## tommers (Jul 27, 2022)

It's like none of them have read the Forde report. What's the point of it all? Corbyn's gone, McDonnell and Abbot are reduced to the sidelines. This guy is hardly a firebrand, why fuck off half the party and all the unions?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 27, 2022)

Beermoth said:


> Literally no difference between Labour and Tory besides the rosettes.



In this context there is a difference - the Daily Mail and the rest of the media will still go after Labour and Starmer on the unions regardless of how 'tough' Starmer is on strikes and pickets. They did with Kinnock and they did it with Miliband.

Labour’s wretched policy isn’t even disgraceful and out of step with public opinion: it’s politically pointless as weakness and pandering to bullies just invites more aggression.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Jul 27, 2022)

teqniq said:


> Although he is in a safe Labour seat, and as such what I vote will make little difference, with each passing day I am finding it harder and harder to find good reasons to vote for my Labour MP.


My thoughts, as well.

I mean, in my voting career I've voted for someone else as much as I've voted for them, it's just this stupid fucking system we have, and a lifetime of habit, and the niggling feeling that Tory Lite is _marginally _easier to stomach than Tory Original, and if they get another kicking they'll inevitably lurch further right than left, and... and... and...

_LABOUR_, for fuck's sake. It's your _fucking name_, you colossal pack of frauds. It's just an absolute mockery, the whole fucking business.

Also can't shake the feeling that I should be well past the stage where this sort of thing comes as any kind of surprise, at all.


----------



## Leighsw2 (Jul 27, 2022)

agricola said:


> that was already happening prior to this, albeit of course deselecting sitting Labour MPs is no longer the* Absolute Marxism* that it was between 2015 and 2020


Not a single Labour MP was deselected between 2015 and 2020, even the ones who deserved it like John Woodcock. There were a few trigger ballots and a few reselection processes, all of which the sitting MPs survived. And none of it was being orchestrated by the Labour bureaucracy or Leaders Office as it is now. The latest target is Ian Byrne in Liverpool West Derby, one of the most outstanding working class MPs elected in 2019 who has prioritised food poverty having helped to set up food banks in Liverpool. He was 'triggered' in the first branch meeting following an online-only meeting insisted upon by North West region, with no tellers allowed for the voting and despite the fact it was clear there was a big majority of his supporters on the Zoom call. Nothing like that went on in Corbyn Labour, it's happening all the time in Starmer Labour. So fuck off with your 'absolute Marxism'!


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 27, 2022)

Leighsw2 said:


> Not a single Labour MP was deselected between 2015 and 2020, even the ones who deserved it like John Woodcock. There were a few trigger ballots and a few reselection processes, all of which the sitting MPs survived. And none of it was being orchestrated by the Labour bureaucracy or Leaders Office as it is now. The latest target is Ian Byrne in Liverpool West Derby, one of the most outstanding working class MPs elected in 2019 who has prioritised food poverty having helped to set up food banks in Liverpool. He was 'triggered' in the first branch meeting following an online-only meeting insisted upon by North West region, with no tellers allowed for the voting and despite the fact it was clear there was a big majority of his supporters on the Zoom call. Nothing like that went on in Corbyn Labour, it's happening all the time in Starmer Labour. So fuck off with your 'absolute Marxism'!


Shammerism


----------



## Leighsw2 (Jul 27, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> In this context there is a difference - the Daily Mail and the rest of the media will still go after Labour and Starmer on the unions regardless of how 'tough' Starmer is on strikes and pickets. They did with Kinnock and they did it with Miliband.
> 
> Labour’s wretched policy isn’t even disgraceful and out of step with public opinion: it’s politically pointless as weakness and pandering to bullies just invites more aggression.


Absolutely, this is just Kinnock and the miners' strike all over again. It's likely (I hope) that there will be a wave of strikes later this year when the cost of living crisis really bites (the latest news on fuel bills in the autumn is particularly alarming) and then Starmer and right wing Labour are going to be badly exposed.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 27, 2022)

Lord Camomile said:


> _LABOUR_, for fuck's sake. It's your _fucking name_, you colossal pack of frauds. It's just an absolute mockery, the whole fucking business.
> 
> Also can't shake the feeling that I should be well past the stage where this sort of thing comes as any kind of surprise, at all.



The surprise is surely ‘the optics’? The strikes are popular with the general public and tap into a wider discontent that has been present since 2008.

Labour betraying the class and trade union movement that formed it is as old as the Labour Party itself. But, at least on previous occasions they could claim to be swimming with received opinion. They don’t even have that excuse this time.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 27, 2022)

Leighsw2 said:


> Not a single Labour MP was deselected between 2015 and 2020, even the ones who deserved it like John Woodcock. There were a few trigger ballots and a few reselection processes, all of which the sitting MPs survived. And none of it was being orchestrated by the Labour bureaucracy or Leaders Office as it is now. The latest target is Ian Byrne in Liverpool West Derby, one of the most outstanding working class MPs elected in 2019 who has prioritised food poverty having helped to set up food banks in Liverpool. He was 'triggered' in the first branch meeting following an online-only meeting insisted upon by North West region, with no tellers allowed for the voting and despite the fact it was clear there was a big majority of his supporters on the Zoom call. Nothing like that went on in Corbyn Labour, it's happening all the time in Starmer Labour. So fuck off with your 'absolute Marxism'!


I read it as ironic,  if not

Was thinking of commenting that it was clearly part of a Stalinist Purge, ah no sorry Corbyn's not there any more it's a perfectly reasonable and straightforward result of breaking party rules.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 27, 2022)

Leighsw2 said:


> Absolutely, this is just Kinnock and the miners' strike all over again. It's likely (I hope) that there will be a wave of strikes later this year when the cost of living crisis really bites (the latest news on fuel bills in the autumn is particularly alarming) and then Starmer and right wing Labour are going to be badly exposed.



I think that’s correct. The RMT strikes are tapping into a wider mood, both industrially (in both the public and increasingly the private sector) and in wider society. Labour has been presented with a golden opportunity to speak to that and be part of it - and benefit electorally from it - and to frame the response to it. Instead they’ve picked the other side. So be it…


----------



## Leighsw2 (Jul 27, 2022)

Here's the context of what's coming in the autumn - Britain's political class don't have an answer for this (including Starmer).


----------



## Lord Camomile (Jul 27, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> The surprise is surely ‘the optics’? The strikes are popular with the general public and tap into a wider discontent that has been present since 2008.
> 
> Labour betraying the class and trade union movement that formed it is as old as the Labour Party itself. But, at least on previous occasions they could claim to be swimming with received opinion. They don’t even have that excuse this time.


I honestly wouldn't claim to know what the general trend is among the public at the moment, but would certainly hope you're right, as it hasn't seemed that way for a very long time.


----------



## Leighsw2 (Jul 27, 2022)

two sheds said:


> I read it as ironic,  if not


Ah, my bad! apologies to agricola. Sometimes it's difficult to spot the irony, a product of reading too much Twitter.


----------



## agricola (Jul 27, 2022)

two sheds said:


> I read it as ironic,  if not
> 
> Was thinking of commenting that it was clearly part of a Stalinist Purge, ah no sorry Corbyn's not there any more it's a perfectly reasonable and straightforward result of breaking party rules.



it was meant to be


----------



## Leighsw2 (Jul 27, 2022)

I am feeling massively pissed off at the brass necked hypocrisy of the Guardian types who spent five years whining about 'stalinist' Corbyn and are completely silent about the scandalous authoritarianism of Labour under Starmer. And we know from the Blair years that that the way these people run Labour will be the way they run Britain if they form a government.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Jul 27, 2022)

My cousin was on strike today, and Labour's shadow minister for her sector just got sacked for supporting her.

Just what the fuck are she and her colleagues supposed to make of that?


----------



## PR1Berske (Jul 27, 2022)




----------



## Lord Camomile (Jul 27, 2022)

"This dispute would not be taking place under a Labour Government".

With respect, Sam, you sure about that?


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 27, 2022)

Labour need to change their name if they’re not going to support it


----------



## two sheds (Jul 27, 2022)

Lord Camomile said:


> "This dispute would not be taking place under a Labour Government".
> 
> With respect, Sam, you sure about that?



I think he's likely right - I can quite see Starmer banning strikes altogether if he gets in.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jul 27, 2022)

He's proper fucked this up. He might have just destroyed the Labour party.


----------



## Elpenor (Jul 27, 2022)

Think it’s all part of Starmer’s cunning plan to rename the party from *Labour* to *Capital   *


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jul 27, 2022)

Elpenor said:


> Think it’s all part of Starmer’s cunning plan to rename the party from *Labour* to *Capital   *



But Capital doesn't want him either. If it did his party wouldn't be flat fucking broke.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jul 27, 2022)

> Voters prefer Starmer to Tory leadership candidates Sunak and Truss, poll finds​





source



> 24% of respondents said they had a favourable opinion of the Labour leader, compared to 20% for the former Chancellor and just 17% for the Foreign Secretary.
> 
> The proportion of those surveyed who had an unfavourable view of Starmer was 43%, lower than the figure recorded for both Sunak (50%) and Truss (45%). Starmer received a net favourability rating of -19, compared to the former Chancellor on -30 and the Foreign Secretary on -28.



The 'marginally less shit than the blue tories' policy is working, folks...


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jul 27, 2022)

Kick in shin better than poke in eye, polls say.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 27, 2022)

Were they saying they'd prefer Starmer instead of Truss and Sunak as leader of the tory party?


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jul 27, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Were they saying they'd prefer Starmer instead of Truss and Sunak as leader of the tory party?


----------



## sleaterkinney (Jul 27, 2022)

Why did he do that?


----------



## RedRedRose (Jul 28, 2022)

Orang Utan said:


> Labour need to change their name if they’re not going to support it


Neoliberal Party doesn't quite have the same ring.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 28, 2022)

two sheds said:


> I read it as ironic,  if not
> 
> Was thinking of commenting that it was clearly part of a Stalinist Purge, ah no sorry Corbyn's not there any more it's a perfectly reasonable and straightforward result of breaking party rules.


You should read the great terror


----------



## Plumdaff (Jul 28, 2022)

Elpenor said:


> Think it’s all part of Starmer’s cunning plan to rename the party from *Labour* to *Capital   *


Diet Tory 

Or better, actually 

Tory Max


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 28, 2022)

Plumdaff said:


> Die Tory
> 
> Or better, actually
> 
> Tory Max


Fify


----------



## steeplejack (Jul 28, 2022)

Dreadful day for what’s left of the Labour Party.

Being sacked as a Labour frontbencher for going on a picket is like being sacked from the Tory front bench for going to a shareholder’s meeting. Or the Liberal front bench (if they have enough MPs to warrant one) for wearing sandals.


----------



## ruffneck23 (Jul 28, 2022)

SpookyFrank said:


> He's proper fucked this up. He might have just destroyed the Labour party.


Mission accomplished then


----------



## teqniq (Jul 28, 2022)

More fallout:









						Starmer Faces Backlash From Unions And MPs After Tarry Sacking Over Strikes
					

Union bosses attack Labour leader directly as MPs on the left tweet solidarity with exiting shadow transport minister.




					www.huffingtonpost.co.uk


----------



## Chilli.s (Jul 28, 2022)

I doubt Ill be voting for labour again, unprincipled stamzie, he should just join the tories


----------



## ruffneck23 (Jul 28, 2022)

I was one of only 5000 odd Labour voters in my true blue area, I wont be doing it again, Greens or if have to hold my nose to get the tories out it may have to be LD

Although I think spoiling the ballot paper with a cock might be a more favorable direction to go in.


----------



## maomao (Jul 28, 2022)

I'll vote Labour because a) I probably know the candidate and b) she's got no chance. If either of those two things weren't true I wouldn't.


----------



## prunus (Jul 28, 2022)

maomao said:


> I'll vote Labour because a) I probably know the candidate and b) she's got no chance. If either of those two things weren't true I wouldn't.



You wouldn’t vote Labour if she had a chance of winning, even though you know (and I presume from that knowledge approve of) the candidate?  That seems an odd stance?


----------



## maomao (Jul 28, 2022)

prunus said:


> You wouldn’t vote Labour if she had a chance of winning, even though you know (and I presume from that knowledge approve of) the candidate?  That seems an odd stance?


I wouldn't help put that prick Starmer in.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jul 28, 2022)

PR1Berske said:


>




What I've seen from him on this has been 100% on point. Nice to see a few people left in the PLP with some fucking backbone.


----------



## tommers (Jul 28, 2022)

Yeah, I'm done. God knows who I'll vote for. Greens I guess. Know fuck all about them. They probably want to privatise air or something.


----------



## Karl Masks (Jul 28, 2022)

tommers said:


> Yeah, I'm done. God knows who I'll vote for. Greens I guess. Know fuck all about them. They probably want to privatise air or something.


they....um

break strikes


----------



## prunus (Jul 28, 2022)

maomao said:


> I wouldn't help put that prick Starmer in.



Ok, well that does make some sense, but you think that, even though that means by default you’d be helping put (probably) Truss in?  And also very likely putting a significantly worse (I am assuming Tory, but even if Lib Dem still likely true) MP into parliament and as your representative?

Unless you’d actively prefer Truss (which I assume not) and/or a Tory/Lib Dem MP that seems to me to be a bit of a cutting off one’s nose approach. 

Ie do you really feel that Starmer as PM is actually a worse outcome than Truss?


----------



## Cid (Jul 28, 2022)

Yeah, greens here. Labour safe seat (34k last election, Tories 7k, G4.5k, LD 3.2k), so I figure extremely unlikely to swing blue (because most protest votes will likely accrue G/LD).

e2a: yes I know greens are a shit protest vote technically, but don't think that really registers in wider public consciousness.


----------



## Chilli.s (Jul 28, 2022)

prunus said:


> Unless you’d actively prefer Truss (which I assume not) and/or a Tory/Lib Dem MP that seems to me to be a bit of a cutting off one’s nose approach.


This is where the spunking cock vote cums into its true place. Does nothing for any candidate, no point in tactical lesser of two cunts scenario


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jul 28, 2022)

I might have voted Labour at the next GE if the incumbent MP was standing because he's actually OK, but he's retiring and they're plugging some party drone from London as his annointed replacement. Not that safe of a labour seat and it'll have a big chunk of its working class neighbourhoods excised and handed to the neighbouring tory seat next time round, so it could turn blue I suppose. But I can't in good conscience vote for a Starmer Labour party. 

I don't see holding your nose and voting Labour at this point to be a tactical vote because they're just more tories. About the only meaningful message voters can send at this point is to stay the fuck at home. That's what will actually help people like striking workers; if they're able to say look this government (whichever one it is) has fuck all for a mandate and we don't recognise their authority to fuck us over.


----------



## steveo87 (Jul 28, 2022)

prunus said:


> Ok, well that does make some sense, but you think that, even though that means by default you’d be helping put (probably) Truss in?  And also very likely putting a significantly worse (I am assuming Tory, but even if Lib Dem still likely true) MP into parliament and as your representative?
> 
> Unless you’d actively prefer Truss (which I assume not) and/or a Tory/Lib Dem MP that seems to me to be a bit of a cutting off one’s nose approach.
> 
> Ie do you really feel that Starmer as PM is actually a worse outcome than Truss?


100 times, this.

I loath Starmer, I loath his middling 'soft-left' bullshit, I loath neo-liberal inanity (if thats a word) of the modern, post Blair, Labour Party. 


Bit I fucking hate the Tories. 

Fundermebtally, if people want a credible alternative to the Tories, you have to vote Labour. Its depressing as fuck, but here we are. 

My only hope, as has been for a number of GE now, is that 'after the next one', those alienated within the PLP will form another, more credible (ultimately leftwing) party. 

But I doubt that'll happen.


----------



## Cid (Jul 28, 2022)

Chilli.s said:


> This is where the spunking cock vote cums into its true place. Does nothing for any candidate, no point in tactical lesser of two cunts scenario



Yeah, but it barely registers in terms of reporting. Probably better just to stay home and add to the 'record low turnout' stats that may come up.


----------



## Rob Ray (Jul 28, 2022)

steveo87 said:


> 100 times, this.
> 
> I loath Starmer, I loath his middling 'soft-left' bullshit, I loath neo-liberal inanity (if thats a word) of the modern, post Blair, Labour Party.
> 
> ...


For people who want the Labour Party to have at least a pretense of a chance of going left again I'd have thought the better outcome in the long term is for Starmerism to lose against Truss. Otherwise you're looking at the Labour right crowing forever about their electability in comparison to Corbynism.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jul 28, 2022)

'The enemy of my enemy is my friend' is patchy logic at the best of times, but Starmer's not even the enemy of my enemy.


----------



## Rob Ray (Jul 28, 2022)

Yeah tbh sacking people for turning up on a picket line goes even further than the usual "wait til we're in power and do nothing about the Tories' excesses". It points to "we're so worried about being perceived as left we'll _extend_ the Tories' excesses".


----------



## Serge Forward (Jul 28, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> they....um
> 
> break strikes


So does Labour, to be fair.


----------



## Cid (Jul 28, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> For people who want the Labour Party to have at least a pretense of a chance of going left again I'd have thought the better outcome in the long term is for Starmerism to lose against Truss. Otherwise you're looking at the Labour right crowing forever about their electability in comparison to Corbynism.



Counter argument would be that electoral losses can lead to rightward drift - though not sure I really buy that (Brown > Miliband > Corbyn < Starmer). There probably is still room for 'Starmer was just too tainted by Corbyn' type arguments from the centre though. Batshit, but still.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jul 28, 2022)

Cid said:


> Counter argument would be that electoral losses can lead to rightward drift - though not sure I really buy that (Brown > Miliband > Corbyn < Starmer). There probably is still room for 'Starmer was just too tainted by Corbyn' type arguments from the centre though. Batshit, but still.



Not sure how Starmer could drift any further to the right tbh, election or no.


----------



## maomao (Jul 28, 2022)

prunus said:


> Ok, well that does make some sense, but you think that, even though that means by default you’d be helping put (probably) Truss in?  And also very likely putting a significantly worse (I am assuming Tory, but even if Lib Dem still likely true) MP into parliament and as your representative?
> 
> Unless you’d actively prefer Truss (which I assume not) and/or a Tory/Lib Dem MP that seems to me to be a bit of a cutting off one’s nose approach.
> 
> Ie do you really feel that Starmer as PM is actually a worse outcome than Truss?


If we get Truss as PM it'll be the fault of all the whiners who kept insisting on getting rid of Johnson, not my fault in any way as I live in a safe seat and am not a Conservative party member. For those who live in seats where their votes do count, voting for a rampantly right-wing Labour party is not in the long-term interests of the working class. Johnson was a better PM for most people than Starmer could ever be.


----------



## Cid (Jul 28, 2022)

SpookyFrank said:


> Not sure how Starmer could drift any further to the right tbh, election or no.



I mean the party rather than the inevitably deposed leader, but yeah, it is a stretch.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 28, 2022)

Instead of posting on here about your agonies about who you are going to vote for why not:

a) make peace with the fact that you are going to have to vote Labour which will take 10 minutes in 2024. 
b) spend the time you would have wasted pondering whether to vote for the equally sickening and reactionary Greens/Liberals or whether to waste your vote on the cobweb left candidate doing something productive in your workplace/community instead. 

Just an idea.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jul 28, 2022)

Cid said:


> I mean the party rather than the inevitably deposed leader, but yeah, it is a stretch.



Someone like Rachel Reeves as leader could well be even worse tbf.


----------



## Rob Ray (Jul 28, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> a) make peace with the fact that you are going to have to vote Labour



I didn't vote Labour before and won't now, but otherwise sure.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 28, 2022)

SpookyFrank said:


> Not sure how Starmer could drift any further to the right tbh, election or no.


don't worry, he'll show you


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 28, 2022)

SpookyFrank said:


> Someone like Rachel Reeves as leader could well be even worse tbf.


yeh even when you think they've reached the bottom of the barrel you'll find there's some shite left down there


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 28, 2022)

SpookyFrank said:


> Someone like Rachel Reeves as leader could well be even worse tbf.



A bit like those dancing in delight when the odious Johnson fell only to realize that the replacement was Truss, those demanding Starmer's head will be shocked to discover Wes Streeting replace him and the Blairite hegemony restored. You can set your watch by this place...


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 28, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> A bit like those dancing in delight when the odious Johnson fell only to realize that the replacement was Truss, those demanding Starmer's head will be shocked to discover Wes Streeting replace him and the Blairite hegemony restored. You can set your watch by this place...


every time i think of wes streeting an image of wes crusher off stng pops into my mind


----------



## Rob Ray (Jul 28, 2022)

Starmer is the Blairite hegemony, or so tied to it as to make little difference. I don't see Reeves or Streeting being particularly worse than him outside of maybe taking a more erudite approach to their bullshitting.


----------



## planetgeli (Jul 28, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> A bit like those dancing in delight when the odious Johnson fell only to realize that the replacement was Truss, those demanding Starmer's head will be shocked to discover Wes Streeting replace him and the Blairite hegemony restored. You can set your watch by this place...



You keep repeating this but it isn't what happened or what happens. You think people were dancing on Johnson's grave in the expectation of some different Tory saviour? Or do we do it out of schadenfreude because it's one of the only little bits of joy in politics to see people you hate suffer?


----------



## ruffneck23 (Jul 28, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> every time i think of wes streeting an image of wes crusher off stng pops into my mind


didnt he end up becoming some kind of celestial traveler?  So he could well just pop up absolutely anywhere, so you might be on to something.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jul 28, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Instead of posting on here about your agonies about who you are going to vote for why not:
> 
> a) make peace with the fact that you are going to have to vote Labour which will take 10 minutes in 2024.
> b) spend the time you would have wasted pondering whether to vote for the equally sickening and reactionary Greens/Liberals or whether to waste your vote on the cobweb left candidate doing something productive in your workplace/community instead.
> ...



Fully agree with this. The Revisionist Starmer Clique's stance on industrial action is cowardly and pathetic but the Tories have already significantly weakened union rights and both leadership candidates have vowed to dramatically role them back further. However bad the Revisionist Starmer Clique are, the Tories are worse. Taking 10 minutes or so to engage in a bit of damage limitation is the right thing to do, but, as you say, what we do in our communities and workplaces is more important still.


----------



## Rob Ray (Jul 28, 2022)

planetgeli said:


> You keep repeating this but it isn't what happened or what happens. You think people were dancing on Johnson's grave in the expectation of some different Tory saviour? Or do we do it out of schadenfreude because it's one of the only little bits of joy in politics to see people you hate suffer?


The happiness I felt seeing Johnson squirm through that committee hearing, seeing he'd lost his majority and didn't yet know it, was completely unaffected by the sure knowledge that it'd just be some other cunt in charge later.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 28, 2022)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Fully agree with this. The Revisionist Starmer Clique's stance on industrial action is cowardly and pathetic but the Tories have already significantly weakened union rights and both leadership candidates have vowed to dramatically role them back further. However bad the Revisionist Starmer Clique are, the Tories are worse. Taking 10 minutes or so to engage in a bit of damage limitation is the right thing to do, but, as you say, what we do in our communities and workplaces is more important still.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 28, 2022)

planetgeli said:


> You keep repeating this but it isn't what happened or what happens. You think people were dancing on Johnson's grave in the expectation of some different Tory saviour? Or do we do it out of schadenfreude because it's one of the only little bits of joy in politics to see people you hate suffer?



Don't know. Both seems utterly pointless to me.


----------



## Rob Ray (Jul 28, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Don't know. Both seems utterly pointless to me.


Why does there have to be a point? Enjoying the outcome of a football match doesn't change the nature of the game either. Let people enjoy things, it's not like there's an overabundance of happiness in being a leftie ffs.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 28, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> The happiness I felt seeing Johnson squirm through that committee hearing, seeing he'd lost his majority and didn't yet know it, was completely unaffected by the sure knowledge that it'd just be some other cunt in charge later.



I'd agree if we were talking about the cunt being hung from a lamppost with piano wire, but a select committee hearing with difficult questions from other Tory and Labour twats from the Westminster bubble? Nah.


----------



## Rob Ray (Jul 28, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I'd agree if we were talking about the cunt being hung from a lamppost with piano wire, but a select committee hearing with difficult questions from Tory and Labour twats from the Westminster bubble? Nah.


That's up to you, but why tell other people off for having a bit of fun at his expense? You don't get points for it. And I'll tell you now, when Starmer goes I'll be laughing at him too.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 28, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> That's up to you, but why tell other people off for having a bit of fun at his expense? You don't get points for it.



I'm not telling people off, I'm merely pointing out the utter dead end of investing agency in the fortunes of an individual. They are all ciphers. Another one will be along shortly.


----------



## Rob Ray (Jul 28, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I'm not telling people off, I'm merely pointing out the utter dead end of investing agency in the fortunes of an individual. They are all ciphers. Another one will be along shortly.


But no-one here has been investing agency in the fortune of the individual. No-one was saying "thank God Boris is gone, now we'll have a good PM at last". Who is it you think you're taking to? This is Urban, not Labour List.


----------



## Cid (Jul 28, 2022)

I did see some pretty daft responses to Johnson's ousting - one guy on a Facebook group (demographic clue there) saying something along the lines of 'at least it shows a moral core in those that got rid of him'. But yeah, not a sentiment present here.


----------



## planetgeli (Jul 28, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I'm not telling people off, I'm merely pointing out the utter dead end of investing agency in the fortunes of an individual. They are all ciphers. Another one will be along shortly.



Something that brings joy to otherwise disenfranchised people is not a dead end to them. It's one of the few vectors for the visceral hatred we have. None of us are kidding ourselves it brings an end to the corrupt structural politics we have to live under. 

Working class first your tag line says. Well I know plenty of working class people who celebrated this. A whole staff room at my work for one. But you keep preaching to them that they are wrong to do so. Shows a great understanding of the working class that.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 28, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> But no-one here has been investing agency in the fortune of the individual. No-one was saying "thank God Boris is gone, now we'll have a good PM at last". Who is it you think you're taking to? This is Urban, not Labour List.



Come off it. There was page after page after page of people getting very excited about Johnson's demise. I haven't suggested, at any point, that there was an implication in those posts that what would come next would be better. There wasn't any apparent thought _at all_, which is precisely the point I was and am making in the context of those now saying they want Starmer out. Few are asking, what comes next. As with Johnson the answer is something worse is what comes next.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 28, 2022)

planetgeli said:


> Working class first your tag line says. Well I know plenty of working class people who celebrated this. A whole staff room at my work for one. But you keep preaching to them that they are wrong to do so. Shows a great understanding of the working class that.



Where I work there wasn't any celebrating. My workmates don't like any politicians. Most people (although not all) were glad to see the back of him, but had seemingly twigged - from long experience - that he'd be replaced by another odious scumbag who'd do nothing for them and carried on talking about more important things. Turns out they were right.


----------



## weepiper (Jul 28, 2022)

First of many?


----------



## ska invita (Jul 28, 2022)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Fully agree with this. The Revisionist Starmer Clique's stance on industrial action is cowardly and pathetic but the Tories have already significantly weakened union rights and both leadership candidates have vowed to dramatically role them back further. However bad the Revisionist Starmer Clique are, the Tories are worse. Taking 10 minutes or so to engage in a bit of damage limitation is the right thing to do, but, as you say, what we do in our communities and workplaces is more important still.


unless you live in a swing seat why vote Labour? it makes no difference other than showing moral support


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jul 28, 2022)

ska invita said:


> unless you live in a swing seat why vote Labour? it makes no difference other than showing moral support



I guess it depends on who your MP is, not all of them are in lockstep with the Revisionist Starmer Clique. Also, as the last election showed, there are a great many more swing seats that we previously thought.


----------



## Rob Ray (Jul 28, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Where I work there wasn't any celebrating. My workmates don't like any politicians. Most people (although not all) were glad to see the back of him, but had seemingly twigged - from long experience - that he'd be replaced by another odious scumbag who'd do nothing for them and carried on talking about more important things. Turns out they were right.


Yes they were right, and so was Urban which said exactly the same thing, albeit with more interest in the theatre of it, because this is a political forum. What no-one on Urban suggested was that what would come next was going to be any better. You're mistaking joy at a bastard getting some comeuppance for mindless naivety. Which tbh, given your continued advocacy for a Labour vote, is _really_ misunderstanding who's where on the spectrum of "won't make a difference".


----------



## planetgeli (Jul 28, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Where I work there wasn't any celebrating. My workmates don't like any politicians. Most people (although not all) were glad to see the back of him, but had seemingly twigged - from long experience - that he'd be replaced by another odious scumbag who'd do nothing for them and carried on talking about more important things. Turns out they were right.



Christ. Your working class is better than my working class? I'd better tell them. The correct position is to be "glad" but not celebrate. Gotcha.


----------



## Rob Ray (Jul 28, 2022)

weepiper said:


> First of many?



I'd not be surprised if a few of the unions leave, though I suspect this would actually be something Starmer and co. are relaxed about. My guess is he wants to convert Labour fully to the US Democrats model in any case - competing for lobby money where the attached strings aren't getting cited as showing the party's "owned by unions." The Labour right would generally be happier to have both the public and the unions at the end of the barge pole.


----------



## tommers (Jul 28, 2022)

I'm off to talk about more important things.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jul 28, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> Starmer is the Blairite hegemony, or so tied to it as to make little difference. I don't see Reeves or Streeting being particularly worse than him outside of maybe taking a more erudite approach to their bullshitting.



Streeting might just be smart enough to pretend to be less of a cunt than he is but probably not even that tbh.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 28, 2022)

ska invita said:


> unless you live in a swing seat why vote Labour? it makes no difference other than showing moral support


don't vote, it only encourages them


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jul 28, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> don't vote, it only encourages them


I read that as, ‘unless you live in a swing bin why vote Labour?’


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 28, 2022)

Mr.Bishie said:


> I read that as, ‘unless you live in a swing bin why vote Labour?’


even if you live in a swing bin why vote labour?


----------



## two sheds (Jul 28, 2022)

tommers said:


> I'm off to talk about more important things.


Of shoes and ships - and sealing wax - of cabbages and kings"


----------



## JimW (Jul 28, 2022)

Give it ten years and we'll envy those with secure swing bin based housing.


----------



## steveo87 (Jul 28, 2022)

tommers said:


> I'm off to talk about more important things.


Footy season starts soon. 
Well excited.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 28, 2022)

steveo87 said:


> Footy season starts soon.
> Well excited.


could be a good season for grimsby town, back in the league after being promoted


----------



## prunus (Jul 28, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Instead of posting on here about your agonies about who you are going to vote for why not:
> 
> a) make peace with the fact that you are going to have to vote Labour which will take 10 minutes in 2024.
> b) spend the time you would have wasted pondering whether to vote for the equally sickening and reactionary Greens/Liberals or whether to waste your vote on the cobweb left candidate doing something productive in your workplace/community instead.
> ...



Could not Like this post more.


----------



## prunus (Jul 28, 2022)

maomao said:


> <…>
> Johnson was a better PM for most people than Starmer could ever be.



I just can’t agree with this statement, on the information I have available at the moment.  Johnson was never PM for anyone but himself, and has never been anything but out for himself.  Starmer has at least in the past been on the good side - his current incarnation of not upsetting any apple carts is hardly edifying, but politics is a volatile and difficult place at the moment, and I’m not sure what a better course to steer would be. The right-wing press are still poised to rip into anything that looks Corbynite, and that was simply too anathema to too many people. 

In my opinion, of course.


----------



## Throbbing Angel (Jul 28, 2022)

Chilli.s said:


> This is where the spunking cock vote cums into its true place. Does nothing for any candidate, no point in tactical lesser of two cunts scenario



this is where my 'working on local elections' knowledge comes in...

don't just draw a small spunking cock next to one candidate or in the box where you would put your X  for that candidate

the ballot will be taken out of the pile for referral to a higher-up - sometimes these are interpreted as being a vote for that candidate - I have seen this happen, much to the other candidate's chagrin

PLEASE...
 either draw a massive cock across the whole ballot

OR

put a cock in every box so that it is patently unclear who you are voting for - eyethankew


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jul 28, 2022)

SpookyFrank said:


> I might have voted Labour at the next GE if the incumbent MP was standing because he's actually OK, but he's retiring and they're plugging some party drone from London as his annointed replacement. Not that safe of a labour seat and it'll have a big chunk of its working class neighbourhoods excised and handed to the neighbouring tory seat next time round, so it could turn blue I suppose. But I can't in good conscience vote for a Starmer Labour party.



And sure enough the sitting MP Ben Bradshaw has now come out in support of Starmer's actions because, 'you can't just defy the party leader, break collective responsibility'   

To me collective responsibility _requires_ that everyone ignores Starmer's diktat and supports striking workers regardless.


----------



## Rob Ray (Jul 28, 2022)

prunus said:


> I just can’t agree with this statement, on the information I have available at the moment.  Johnson was never PM for anyone but himself, and has never been anything but out for himself.  Starmer has at least in the past been on the good side - his current incarnation of not upsetting any apple carts is hardly edifying, but politics is a volatile and difficult place at the moment, and I’m not sure what a better course to steer would be. The right-wing press are still poised to rip into anything that looks Corbynite, and that was simply too anathema to too many people.
> 
> In my opinion, of course.


If Starmer was solely looking for electability he'd not go so hard after trade unionism in the middle of a cost of living crisis - the polling doesn't back it and it'll hurt the party's ability to finance itself at exactly the moment when it needs money having lost membership dues. He absolutely is upsetting apple carts as part of a move to push Labour firmly to the right, and it's not all about Corbyn.


----------



## TopCat (Jul 28, 2022)

prunus said:


> Ok, well that does make some sense, but you think that, even though that means by default you’d be helping put (probably) Truss in?  And also very likely putting a significantly worse (I am assuming Tory, but even if Lib Dem still likely true) MP into parliament and as your representative?
> 
> Unless you’d actively prefer Truss (which I assume not) and/or a Tory/Lib Dem MP that seems to me to be a bit of a cutting off one’s nose approach.
> 
> Ie do you really feel that Starmer as PM is actually a worse outcome than Truss?


I’m not playing that game any more. Vote Labour or get the Tories in. Fuck them.


----------



## Rob Ray (Jul 28, 2022)

It just seems barmy to me that electoralists would work on the principle of voting in the lesser evil _knowing_ that success will mean in five years time either nothing will be different, or it'll be worse. It's like the gradual Labour shift rightwards while people worked on this very basis throughout the late 20th and early 21st centuries never happened. Where's the line drawn, a Labour politician shouting "the lady's not for turning" as they refuse to consider repealing the prior government's criminalisation of union membership? Because clearly it wasn't at "vilify and punish people without jobs," and it's not at "refusing to say you'll repeal the criminalisation of protest or the formal encouragement of scabbing." 

I mean fuck at least Corbynism _intended_ to do something vaguely positive, even if they were never going to get there.


----------



## maomao (Jul 28, 2022)

prunus said:


> I just can’t agree with this statement, on the information I have available at the moment. Johnson was never PM for anyone but himself, and has never been anything but out for himself. Starmer has at least in the past been on the good side - his current incarnation of not upsetting any apple carts is hardly edifying, but politics is a volatile and difficult place at the moment, and I’m not sure what a better course to steer would be.


I don't really care what they're like as people. Starmer reputedly cheats on his wife too.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jul 28, 2022)

Shots fired!


----------



## quimcunx (Jul 28, 2022)

PR1Berske said:


>




I think this was during his campaign to become Labour leader.




And his own tweet:


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 28, 2022)

quimcunx said:


> I think this was during his campaign to become Labour leader.
> 
> View attachment 334912


yeh but that was then


----------



## quimcunx (Jul 28, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh but that was then



back when he was pretending to at least try to appeal to the labour left?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 28, 2022)

quimcunx said:


> back when he was pretending to at least try to appeal to the labour left?


yeh when he wanted votes to be leader next


----------



## oryx (Jul 28, 2022)

As I had previously thought, other Labour shadow cabinet members didn't get penalised for going off-message. Rachel Reeves didn't.

Funny, that.   









						Sam Tarry fired for making up policy on the hoof, says Keir Starmer
					

The Labour leader insists he did not sack his transport spokesman for joining a union picket line.



					www.bbc.co.uk
				






> Earlier this week, Ms Reeves gave an interview in which she said the party no longer backed renationalising the railways. Labour later clarified that renationalisation remained its policy.


----------



## Sue (Jul 28, 2022)

oryx said:


> As I had previously thought, other Labour shadow cabinet members didn't get penalised for going off-message. Rachel Reeves didn't.
> 
> Funny, that.
> 
> ...


Depends which message you go off...


----------



## Karl Masks (Jul 28, 2022)




----------



## quiet guy (Jul 28, 2022)

Max Headroom was a fictional artificial intelligence character, Advertised as "the first computer-generated TV presenter", Max was known for his biting commentary on a variety of topical issues.  
The reboot version is shit.


----------



## Raheem (Jul 28, 2022)

quiet guy said:


> Max Headroom was a fictional artificial intelligence character, Advertised as "the first computer-generated TV presenter", Max was known for his biting commentary on a variety of topical issues.
> The reboot version is shit.
> View attachment 334949


Tbf, in the 80s, the idea of AI seemed glorious. By now, I think the writers will be taking into account our experience of automated tills.


----------



## teqniq (Jul 28, 2022)

Nevermind automated tills what about the AI's that you get when you phone up a bank or whatever.


----------



## Raheem (Jul 28, 2022)

teqniq said:


> Nevermind automated tills what about the AI's that you get when you phone up a bank or whatever.


Once you know how to deal with them, you can usually get through in the end. Not really very Starmer-like.


----------



## Karl Masks (Jul 28, 2022)

quiet guy said:


> Max Headroom was a fictional artificial intelligence character, Advertised as "the first computer-generated TV presenter", Max was known for his biting commentary on a variety of topical issues.
> The reboot version is shit.
> View attachment 334949


Max was also 23 minutes into the future.

Keir is 23 years into the past


----------



## steveseagull (Jul 28, 2022)

The Guardian is going in two footed on Keith. He is  too awful even for that dreadful lot.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 28, 2022)

Throbbing Angel said:


> this is where my 'working on local elections' knowledge comes in...
> 
> don't just draw a small spunking cock next to one candidate or in the box where you would put your X  for that candidate
> 
> ...


Wholly concur with this, but will offer this small, additional observation. If there is one candidate that you don't mind the chance of getting your vote (eg. Binface) then you can put the spunking cock in all but their box and then smugly put the paper in the ballot box safe in the knowledge that you have caused lengthy mayhem when the ERO brings the agents together to argue the toss about the spoilts. Some fucker will claim that the lack of spunking cock counts as a valid vote


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jul 28, 2022)

this aged well









						To rebuild and take on the Tories, Labour and trade unions must stand together – LabourList
					

The election of a Tory government is a profound challenge for the labour movement. It is necessary for any candidate for the leadership of our…




					labourlist.org


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Jul 29, 2022)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Shots fired!
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 334906



A scab when it came to the Liverpool dockers though


----------



## teqniq (Jul 29, 2022)

What will the leadership do if this happens I wonder? 70 is a rather large number.









						Up to 70 Labour MPs may join pickets as Starmer faces test of party unity
					

Union source claims MPs will join BT staff on Friday despite Labour leader’s call for frontbenchers to stay away




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Throbbing Angel (Jul 29, 2022)

teqniq said:


> What will the leadership do if this happens I wonder? 70 is a rather large number.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Begin to 'read the room'?


----------



## brogdale (Jul 29, 2022)

teqniq said:


> What will the leadership do if this happens I wonder? 70 is a rather large number.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I thought it was only frontbenchers that he'd banned from picket lines?


----------



## Zapp Brannigan (Jul 29, 2022)

I'm almost in awe of how politically inept Starmer has been.  Johnson has been given the boot by his own party, the Tories' succession process has been a toxic clusterfuck, the economy is tanking, Dover is a Brexity car park, and millions upon millions of people are starting to realise that they are not as comfortable with the status quo as they thought (fuel, food and energy bills); all Starmer had to do was not give anyone an excuse to make the prevailing narrative about "divided Labour".

He chooses now to give a graphic demonstration of his authoritarian nature and the rightward lurch of the Labour party, completely committing to keeping the boot firmly on the neck of the working class.  And in doing so he's given the right wing press every reason to jump all over him and make every day about how shit Labour are, focus off the Tories.  It's almost genius, it takes a special talent to be this bad.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 29, 2022)

AmateurAgitator said:


> A scab when it came to the Liverpool dockers though
> 
> View attachment 334989


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 29, 2022)

Zapp Brannigan said:


> I'm almost in awe of how politically inept Starmer has been.  Johnson has been given the boot by his own party, the Tories' succession process has been a toxic clusterfuck, the economy is tanking, Dover is a Brexity car park, and millions upon millions of people are starting to realise that they are not as comfortable with the status quo as they thought (fuel, food and energy bills); all Starmer had to do was not give anyone an excuse to make the prevailing narrative about "divided Labour".
> 
> He chooses now to give a graphic demonstration of his authoritarian nature and the rightward lurch of the Labour party, completely committing to keeping the boot firmly on the neck of the working class.  And in doing so he's given the right wing press every reason to jump all over him and make every day about how shit Labour are, focus off the Tories.  It's almost genius, it takes a special talent to be this bad.


proving the auld adage that the difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits


----------



## Zapp Brannigan (Jul 29, 2022)

brogdale said:


> I thought it was only frontbenchers that he'd banned from picket lines?


The implication is pretty clear; joining a picket line is a fast-track route to not ever making the front bench.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 29, 2022)

Zapp Brannigan said:


> The implication is pretty clear; joining a picket line is a fast-track route to not ever making the front bench.


Under the present management.


----------



## Zapp Brannigan (Jul 29, 2022)

brogdale said:


> Under the present management.


Correct.  There should (will?) be a large number of Labour MPs thinking about the future of the party under this total arsehole, wondering if a large scale rebellion a la Johnson would get rid of him, but timing is everything - for crying out loud just let the Tories commit seppuku in the public glare.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 29, 2022)

brogdale said:


> Under the present management.


but shammer will not lead forever. perhaps not even to the end of the year.


----------



## Throbbing Angel (Jul 29, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> View attachment 335020



Was it Danbert Nobacon from Chumbawumba who did that (IIRC)?


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Jul 29, 2022)

Throbbing Angel said:


> Was it Danbert Nobacon from Chumbawumba who did that (IIRC)?


Yep


----------



## two sheds (Jul 29, 2022)

Throbbing Angel said:


> Was it Danbert Nobacon from Chumbawumba who did that (IIRC)?


Was just going to check and post that


----------



## hitmouse (Jul 29, 2022)

quimcunx said:


> I think this was during his campaign to become Labour leader.
> 
> View attachment 334912
> 
> ...


Of course, that was back when Starmer was pretending to be into BM Blob:


Anyway, for what it's worth, this week was the final straw for my dad in terms of party membership, would be interested to know what the current membership figures are.


----------



## Chilli.s (Jul 29, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> would be interested to know what the current membership figures are.


Dropping like a stone I would think.

My housemate was all paid up until about xmas last year, they cancelled and didnt even have any acknowledgement or what did we do wrong type communication, just nothing

They so have their head up their own arse


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jul 29, 2022)

Iron fist squad levels up


----------



## oryx (Jul 29, 2022)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Iron fist squad levels up
> 
> View attachment 335095


I recognise Tarry, Corbyn and McDonnell - are any of the others Labour MPs, anyone know?


----------



## Duncan2 (Jul 29, 2022)

Was expecting to see Michael Foot in the pack somewhere 🙂


----------



## agricola (Jul 29, 2022)

oryx said:


> I recognise Tarry, Corbyn and McDonnell - are any of the others Labour MPs, anyone know?



that bloke in the shorts, white jacket and brown brogues has a senior job in PR for a charity, and an occasional column in the _New Statesman*

*probably_


----------



## Johnny Vodka (Jul 29, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> Of course, that was back when Starmer was pretending to be into BM Blob:
> 
> 
> Anyway, for what it's worth, this week was the final straw for my dad in terms of party membership, would be interested to know what the current membership figures are.




Never been a party member, but cancelled my union donation to Labour as soon as I figured out what Starmer is.


----------



## platinumsage (Jul 29, 2022)

What a diverse bunch.


----------



## Calamity1971 (Jul 29, 2022)

Hotel room service for din dins ?


----------



## Calamity1971 (Jul 30, 2022)

FFS. Like she'd want to be in it anyway.


----------



## magneze (Jul 30, 2022)

Wtf


----------



## kabbes (Jul 30, 2022)

They have such a surfeit of members that their only option is to throw some away.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jul 30, 2022)

Pretending they decided this in February and just forgot to tell her. How fucking craven can you get.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jul 30, 2022)

I see they're also now saying they didn't fire Sam Tarry for standing on a picket line but for 'making up policy'. You know, like the completely unfired shadow chancellor Rachel Reeves did.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 30, 2022)

SpookyFrank said:


> I see they're also now saying they didn't fire Sam Tarry for standing on a picket line but for 'making up policy'. You know, like the completely unfired shadow chancellor Rachel Reeves did.


Maybe Starmer needs to issue all his MPs with pagers so that they can stay rigorously on message?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jul 30, 2022)

Remember when Starmer forgot the longstanding Labour party policy on Irish unification and instead declared his support for unionism? 

Remember when he pulled a ludicrous brexit policy out of his arsehole and single-handedly sank Labour's chances of winning the 2019 election?

Cunt should've fired himself a dozen times by now.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 30, 2022)

brogdale said:


> Maybe Starmer needs to issue all his MPs with pagers so that they can stay rigorously on message?


or adopt scientology policy and have the top people sign an unsigned resignation letter as soon as they start their jobs.


----------



## Wilf (Jul 30, 2022)

Zapp Brannigan said:


> I'm almost in awe of how politically inept Starmer has been.  Johnson has been given the boot by his own party, the Tories' succession process has been a toxic clusterfuck, the economy is tanking, Dover is a Brexity car park, and millions upon millions of people are starting to realise that they are not as comfortable with the status quo as they thought (fuel, food and energy bills); all Starmer had to do was not give anyone an excuse to make the prevailing narrative about "divided Labour".
> 
> He chooses now to give a graphic demonstration of his authoritarian nature and the rightward lurch of the Labour party, completely committing to keeping the boot firmly on the neck of the working class.  And in doing so he's given the right wing press every reason to jump all over him and make every day about how shit Labour are, focus off the Tories.  It's almost genius, it takes a special talent to be this bad.


It was always said New Labour courted the middle class whilst leaving the working class nowhere else to go.  Starmer is somehow making a pitch to just about no one at all.  There's certainly no coherent messaging or set of policies, there's only distancing - fanatical distancing from Corbyn, followed by this inept distancing from even the most nominal symbols of working class unity.  Working class voters still won't have anywhere else to go, just end up not voting or going for a mixed bag of libscum, greens and even the vermin themselves.  Labour's problem now, in a first past the post system is that it still exists and can't easily be replaced.

And what a fucking moment it would have been to link people's experiences of the cost of living with the notion that trade are all about fighting for working class interests (and more).


----------



## ska invita (Jul 31, 2022)

Heard Frankie Boyle describe Starmer as "looking like someone playing a Prime Minister in an old Spice Girls video". like that.


Wilf said:


> It was always said New Labour courted the middle class whilst leaving the working class nowhere else to go.  Starmer is somehow making a pitch to just about no one at all.  There's certainly no coherent messaging or set of policies, there's only distancing - fanatical distancing from Corbyn, followed by this inept distancing from even the most nominal symbols of working class unity.  Working class voters still won't have anywhere else to go, just end up not voting or going for a mixed bag of libscum, greens and even the vermin themselves.  Labour's problem now, in a first past the post system is that it still exists and can't easily be replaced.


then again, pathetic a strategy though it is:


----------



## Chilli.s (Jul 31, 2022)

Im coming round to liking Starmer (I jest), starting to think what a good PM he could be, easily as great as BJ. Could really go a long way to showing people how useless our decision making processes are


----------



## two sheds (Jul 31, 2022)

Chilli.s said:


> easily as great as a BJ


----------



## Wilf (Jul 31, 2022)

ska invita said:


> Heard Frankie Boyle describe Starmer as "looking like someone playing a Prime Minister in an old Spice Girls video". like that.
> 
> then again, pathetic a strategy though it is:
> 
> ...


Worth noting that Labour's poll leads are slightly in decline, when you trace specific polling companies back over the last 2 or 3 polls. As always, it's best to look at longer term trends in the polls but still, what a moment for them to start edging _away from_ Labour. More to the point, I doubt that many of those saying they will vote Labour are doing so as a result of anything starmer is saying or doing.  It will be a mixture of lifelong or natural Labour voters sticking with or going back to Labour - along with the impact of boris johnson.


----------



## steeplejack (Jul 31, 2022)

All it will take is for Liz Truss to be a bit light and fluffy, tell a few jokes at her own expense, sit laughing on a Challenger tank as though she's in an adults-only episode of _~It's a Knockout! _some softfocus _Strictly Come Dancing _stuff, and the humourless parson will be trailing by 10 points again. You watch.

The only benefit for Starmer is that Liz Truss has the common touch and natural charm of a drunk Buster Bloodvessel who's soiled himself. She's as authentic as a seven euro note. Both achingly fake and unmoored from any sense of daily reality for a long time.

Margaret Thatcher cosplayer versus Tony Blair cosplayer. Choose your weapon, folks.


----------



## planetgeli (Jul 31, 2022)

Utter utter cunt. How can anyone vote for them?


----------



## PR1Berske (Jul 31, 2022)




----------



## SpookyFrank (Jul 31, 2022)

PR1Berske said:


>




All the comments on his tweets are just relentless mockery and abuse. And all of it from lefties, the people who should be voting for him.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 31, 2022)

PR1Berske said:


>



The Lionesses wtf?


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jul 31, 2022)

Orang Utan said:


> The Lionesses wtf?



england (female football players of the opposite sex)


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 31, 2022)

Puddy_Tat said:


> england (female football players of the opposite sex)


ah ok - that sort of thing always passes me by so I'm perpetually confused.


----------



## two sheds (Aug 1, 2022)




----------



## steveseagull (Aug 1, 2022)

Keith needs an ambulance after that burn. Fucking hell.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Aug 1, 2022)

Nandy takes anti-revisionist step:


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 1, 2022)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Nandy takes anti-revisionist step:




So, I assume she doesn't get the boot off the front bench to show that Tarry wasn't sacked for visiting a picket line right? Subtle...


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Aug 1, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> So, I assume she doesn't get the boot off the front bench to show that Tarry wasn't sacked for visiting a picket line right? Subtle...



May well be a revisionist double agent.


----------



## xenon (Aug 1, 2022)

Thought this was funny. "Finally found some strikers you can support then."








						Starmer gets brutally trolled over letter to Lionesses
					

Starmer letter trolled: The Labour leader has been quite selective over who he gives his support to over the past few weeks.




					www.thelondoneconomic.com


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 1, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> So, I assume she doesn't get the boot off the front bench to show that Tarry wasn't sacked for visiting a picket line right? Subtle...


There was an torturous explanation by Starmerites that a) she had requested and been given permission to attend b) that she hadn’t said anything about workers deserving wage settlements that keep pace with or above the rate of inflation and that c) the Union is affiliated to Labour . 

That’s quite a checklist to go through


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 1, 2022)

The other thing that was mentioned was that Tarry cynically and deliberately set himself up to get sacked as he is facing a selection challenge . Although the logic of this line continues to evade me .


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 1, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> The other thing that was mentioned was that Tarry cynically and deliberately set himself up to get sacked as he is facing a selection challenge . Although the logic of this line continues to evade me .


the logic is clear if you're a labour member of parliament. i suppose.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 1, 2022)

All the reselection fuckery needs keeping an eye on tbh.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Aug 1, 2022)

Ah, remember when suggesting an MP might face reselection was apparently disgusting abusive behaviour?


----------



## oryx (Aug 1, 2022)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> Ah, remember when suggesting an MP might face reselection was apparently disgusting abusive behaviour?


The only answer is either to have automatic reselection for all sitting MPs, or to have the reselection process for all.

At the moment it's just subject to factionalist abuse, mainly from the right of the party.


----------



## likesfish (Aug 1, 2022)

The right of The party sabotaged the elected leader undermined the democratic party members are membership five off a cliff and finances along with it.


----------



## steveseagull (Aug 1, 2022)

Total clown show led by a complete clown









						Labour facing ‘breakdown in discipline’ as Nandy visits picket line
					

Shadow ministers say Keir Starmer’s ban on visiting picket lines has ‘effectively broken down’ as frontbencher visits CWU members




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 1, 2022)

likesfish said:


> The right of The party sabotaged the elected leader undermined the democratic party members are membership five off a cliff and finances along with it.


ooh punctuation's what you need


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Aug 1, 2022)

Orang Utan said:


> ooh punctuation's what you need



punctuation, punctuation, punctuation


----------



## Leighsw2 (Aug 2, 2022)

SpookyFrank said:


> All the reselection fuckery needs keeping an eye on tbh.


Well this is good news. I had worried that some of the absolute bastards in Streatham right-wing Labour might have been up to their tricks.....


----------



## Leighsw2 (Aug 2, 2022)

Here's a tick-box exercise for everyone who visits this thread. How many of these 'reasons' do you agree with?
I Hate Keir Starmer


----------



## Leighsw2 (Aug 2, 2022)

I'm quite taken by the wet wipe analogy.


----------



## kabbes (Aug 2, 2022)

Leighsw2 said:


> I'm quite taken by the wet wipe analogy.


The perfect line:

“Normally when politicians lie these days, it is to spin a fantasy their supporters feel inspired to embrace, whereas Starmer simply promises the bare minimum, before flaking out on it: nominally centre-left politics’s very own absentee dad”


----------



## Leighsw2 (Aug 2, 2022)

I also like,


> Living in Britain right now can be terrifying, because everything is very obviously broken (just try accessing medical care, being a working parent and trying to afford childcare, making enough money to pay your energy bills...), but basically nothing can be done about it, because the political and media classes opted to erase pretty much all the norms that allow our democracy to function rather than give Jeremy Corbyn the chance to lead it. Sometimes it really does feel a bit like, without noticing, we lost a war. We desperately need a different government, one with ideas other than “scrap clean energy targets” or “blame trans people” or “start a trade war with China we would lose,” but we can't have one — because where the opposition _should_ by rights be offering an alternative to the current, ongoing disaster, Starmer instead stands in place as a symbol of the system's refusal to allow us one. The fact of Keir Starmer is felt as a blank void where a better future should be.


----------



## tommers (Aug 2, 2022)

Leighsw2 said:


> I also like,


It's not even Starmer. He's just the face of the establishment. The face of the scramble by the Labour Party to make themselves "electable" (by removing any trace of any principles).  He's nothing special, he's the return to normality.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 2, 2022)

> The fact of Keir Starmer is felt as a blank void where a better future should be.



This is exactly how I feel about it.

I suppose it might work out for the good in the long run. With Corbyn as LOTO people allowed themselves to believe that meaningful change could happen in an attenuated neoliberal democracy if we just had the right leader. _Nobody_ looks at Starmer and thinks, maybe we can vote our way out of this mess. Which is the truth of it, and always was. Even if Corbyn had become PM the establishment would have burned the country to ash sooner than let him make a few relatively moderate common-sense improvements to it.


----------



## strung out (Aug 2, 2022)

SpookyFrank said:


> With Corbyn as LOTR


If only...


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 2, 2022)

strung out said:


> If only...
> 
> View attachment 335747



Now there's a crossover fanfic rabbit hole I'm keen to avoid.


----------



## Funky_monks (Aug 2, 2022)

Leighsw2 said:


> Here's a tick-box exercise for everyone who visits this thread. How many of these 'reasons' do you agree with?
> I Hate Keir Starmer


I laughed out loud a few times reading that. 

Then I wondered why I was laughing, because it confirmed how shit the state of everything in electoral politics in the UK is and, with no revolution remotely in consideration by the majority of people, will continue to be. 

Existential crisis ahoy.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Aug 3, 2022)

Labour’s ‘plan’ to ‘take real action’ to tackle the cost of living crisis is beyond a joke:​Labour’s plan to take real action now to tackle the Conservatives’ cost of living crisis:​
Cut VAT on home energy bills.
Save on energy bills now and in the longer term by insulating millions of homes.
Cut small business rates and support businesses through the cost of living storm.
Buy, make and sell more in Britain to create well-paid, secure jobs in every community.
Both woefully inadequate and indistinguishable from what Truss and Sunak are pledging


----------



## Spandex (Aug 3, 2022)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Labour’s ‘plan’ to ‘take real action’ to tackle the cost of living crisis is beyond a joke:​Labour’s plan to take real action now to tackle the Conservatives’ cost of living crisis:​
> Cut VAT on home energy bills.
> Save on energy bills now and in the longer term by insulating millions of homes.
> Cut small business rates and support businesses through the cost of living storm.
> ...


Yes! 

This is the kind of far sighted, ambitious proposal I want to see from Iron Keir. A hardcore Labour policy that would make Corbyn/Mcdonald blush at their lack of ambition. Look at it. Look at what it means:

- Save on energy bills now and in the longer term by insulating millions of homes

If they're going to save on energy bills now, those millions of homes need to be insulated before the weather turns in October/November. 

If this is a plan to tackle the cost of living crisis then it'll have to come at no cost to the people whose houses are insulated. The £billions that it'll cost will have to come from the treasury. 

It means a massive mobilisation of the country's building industry laser focused on insulating millions of homes in the next three months, arranged and paid for by the state. The scale of the proposal makes my head spin with anticipation of what massive state undertakings Iron Keir will be coming up with next.

That, or it's just some ill thought through, badly worded brain fart worthy of Truss...


----------



## emanymton (Aug 3, 2022)

The other issues with insulation, solar panels, heat pumps and what is that they are generally not an option for people who rent, so they tend to benefit those who are already better off.


----------



## Raheem (Aug 3, 2022)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Labour’s ‘plan’ to ‘take real action’ to tackle the cost of living crisis is beyond a joke:​Labour’s plan to take real action now to tackle the Conservatives’ cost of living crisis:​
> Cut VAT on home energy bills.
> Save on energy bills now and in the longer term by insulating millions of homes.
> Cut small business rates and support businesses through the cost of living storm.
> ...


So the solution to everything being more expensive is to "buy more".


----------



## Karl Masks (Aug 3, 2022)

emanymton said:


> The other issues with insulation, solar panels, heat pumps and what is that they are generally not an option for people who rent, so they tend to benefit those who are already better off.


and if rental accomodation is improved, landlords will just use that to jack up rents


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Aug 4, 2022)

Ballots have been sent out for Labour’s NEC elections.

The anti-revisionist, iron fist candidates are 

Jess Barnard
Gemma Bolton
Yasmine Dar
Mish Rahman









						Grassroots Voice: The Future We Need
					

A Labour NEC campaign fighting for democracy & socialism




					futureweneed.com


----------



## belboid (Aug 4, 2022)

Plus Lara McNeill for Youth Rep, Ellen Morrison for Disabled Rep, Ankunda Matsiko for BAME Rep and Lynne Jones for Welsh Rep - where you’re eligible


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 4, 2022)

i wouldn't be surprised if there's fewer labour party members here than there are anarchists


----------



## Johnny Vodka (Aug 4, 2022)

Who's a naughty boy?









						Keir Starmer found to have breached MPs’ code of conduct over register of interests
					

Labour leader was late in declaring eight interests but watchdog called breaches ‘minor and/or inadvertent’




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Funky_monks (Aug 4, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> i wouldn't be surprised if there's fewer labour party members here than there are anarchists


Be interesting to compare now with 2016/17 - I know I tore up my card when Starmer became leader. I was last to join, first to leave of my family - my brother left shortly after. I think my parents have just about given up after being members for decades.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Aug 4, 2022)

Johnny Vodka said:


> Who's a naughty boy?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



he's not the messiah...


----------



## Knotted (Aug 5, 2022)

It probably won't happen but if Liz Truss as new prime minister decides to do something serious about the cost of living crisis eg. rent caps or nationalise the energy companies, then Starmer's Labour will be utterly wrecked. The Tories only need to tack left on this issue, they can still take on the unions etc. at the same time and it would revive their fortunes. Wooden Thatcherite ideologue Sunak would never do it but Truss seems unpredictable to me, I think she represents the Torys' instinct for self preservation.


----------



## Elpenor (Aug 5, 2022)

Reminiscent of Osborne / Cameron stealing  the higher Minimum wage and rebranding it living wage.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 5, 2022)

Knotted said:


> It probably won't happen but if Liz Truss as new prime minister decides to do something serious about the cost of living crisis eg. rent caps or nationalise the energy companies, then Starmer's Labour will be utterly wrecked. The Tories only need to tack left on this issue, they can still take on the unions etc. at the same time and it would revive their fortunes. Wooden Thatcherite ideologue Sunak would never do it but Truss seems unpredictable to me, I think she represents the Torys' instinct for self preservation.



Rent caps, no way in hell. The tories can't afford to even acknowledge that unearned income is an issue or their whole project could start to crumble.

Does Liz Truss know that though? I'm sure some party donors will explain it to her if not.


----------



## Raheem (Aug 5, 2022)

SpookyFrank said:


> Rent caps, no way in hell. The tories can't afford to even acknowledge that unearned income is an issue or their whole project could start to crumble.
> 
> Does Liz Truss know that though? I'm sure some party donors will explain it to her if not.


Truss has already put forward a sort of parallel-universe housing plan, according to which one of the key problems is that it costs too much to evict tenants, and this is why housing is so expensive.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 5, 2022)

Raheem said:


> Truss has already put forward a sort of parallel-universe housing plan, according to which one of the key problems is that it costs too much to evict tenants, and this is why housing is so expensive.



I guess that's the long-promised ban on no-fault evictions out the window then. Who'd have guessed.


----------



## teqniq (Aug 8, 2022)

Yuck, what a scumbag:


----------



## magneze (Aug 8, 2022)

Wasn't that last year?


----------



## Johnny Vodka (Aug 8, 2022)

magneze said:


> Wasn't that last year?


 Doubt the cunt has changed much though.


----------



## ska invita (Aug 8, 2022)

magneze said:


> Wasn't that last year?


Aye. I look forward to this year's Liverpool conference reception.


----------



## teqniq (Aug 9, 2022)

magneze said:


> Wasn't that last year?


Yes actually, i think it was. It may even have been me that posted here already.


----------



## two sheds (Aug 9, 2022)

I'm just as angry now about it as I was last year


----------



## Raheem (Aug 9, 2022)

Maybe it's become an annual tradition.


----------



## Karl Masks (Aug 9, 2022)

teqniq said:


> Yuck, what a scumbag:



Own Goal!

Amazing leadership


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 9, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> Own Goal!
> 
> Amazing leadership


It's the only sort of goal he scores


----------



## Karl Masks (Aug 9, 2022)

Raheem said:


> Truss has already put forward a sort of parallel-universe housing plan, according to which one of the key problems is that it costs too much to evict tenants, and this is why housing is so expensive.


"if you could freely evict me, you could charge me less rent!"


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 9, 2022)

Raheem said:


> Truss has already put forward a sort of parallel-universe housing plan, according to which one of the key problems is that it costs too much to evict tenants, and this is why housing is so expensive.


It'd be lovely if we could just dump her down a space wormhole and watch it collapse on her. Pour encourager les autres


----------



## magneze (Aug 9, 2022)

strong article from Zarah Sultana: Britain isn’t just facing a cost of living crisis: it’s facing a bonanza of corporate greed | Zarah Sultana

Interesting to see what if any reaction there is from the leadership. It's pretty critical of the current approach.


----------



## oryx (Aug 9, 2022)

magneze said:


> Interesting to see what if any reaction there is from the leadership. It's pretty critical of the current approach.


Probably lose the whip for using a Corbyn-era soundbite.



> It’s a cost of living crisis for the many, but it’s a bonanza for the few.


----------



## teqniq (Aug 9, 2022)

oryx said:


> Probably lose the whip for using a Corbyn-era soundbite.


One would hope not, but we will see. Starmer and his Blairite backers need to read the fucking room.


----------



## Karl Masks (Aug 9, 2022)

magneze said:


> strong article from Zarah Sultana: Britain isn’t just facing a cost of living crisis: it’s facing a bonanza of corporate greed | Zarah Sultana
> 
> Interesting to see what if any reaction there is from the leadership. It's pretty critical of the current approach.


aren't they trying to get her deselected?


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 9, 2022)

Hopefully she’ll keep testing the line and get a few more to join her . The Labour Party can do without her but they’ll need to weigh up when and how . The bigger the campaign the more difficult it is for Labour . Got to admire her position on this .


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 10, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> aren't they trying to get her deselected?



Yes, and a few other beneficiaries of Corbyn's BAME women-only shortlists which the blairites are still sick to their guts about because they robbed the careerist drones who were next in line to be gifted those seats.


----------



## PR1Berske (Aug 11, 2022)




----------



## Jeff Robinson (Aug 12, 2022)

What a useless cunt


----------



## ska invita (Aug 12, 2022)

Jeff Robinson said:


> What a useless cunt



This isnt a bad suggestion, infact it's a scandal it's allowed to happen for so long, but on its own it does basically nothing, other than bring people with prepay meters in line with unaffordable costs faced by those without meters


----------



## pug (Aug 12, 2022)

It's just what he should do anyway regardless of the current situation.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Aug 12, 2022)

ska invita said:


> This isnt a bad suggestion, infact it's a scandal it's allowed to happen for so long, but on its own it does basically nothing, other than bring people with prepay meters in line with unaffordable costs faced by those without meters



Worse still, Labour have announced that they will reimburse energy companies for the difference (i.e. with public money). That's money that could have gone to schools, hospitals and social care. Just absymal.


----------



## magneze (Aug 12, 2022)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Worse still, Labour have announced that they will reimburse energy companies for the difference (i.e. with public money). That's money that could have gone to schools, hospitals and social care. Just absymal.


WTF, seriously?


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Aug 12, 2022)

They've been outflanked to the left by the libdems for fucks sake


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Aug 12, 2022)

magneze said:


> WTF, seriously?



Rightwing neo-liberals like Sunak and Reeves always find the magic money tree for giant corporations don't they? Funny that.


----------



## ska invita (Aug 12, 2022)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Worse still, Labour have announced that they will reimburse energy companies for the difference (i.e. with public money). That's money that could have gone to schools, hospitals and social care. Just absymal.


Now that is un fucking believable


----------



## steeplejack (Aug 12, 2022)




----------



## magneze (Aug 12, 2022)

I'm laughing, but sort of crying and screaming inside too.


----------



## Boris Sprinkler (Aug 14, 2022)

Nobody: Why do Labour keep losing elections against obviously criminal cartoon baddies?

Labour:


----------



## Serge Forward (Aug 14, 2022)

He'll go far.


----------



## Raheem (Aug 15, 2022)

_Why am I Mister Yellow?_


----------



## gosub (Aug 15, 2022)

Who does he think has the shares in the energy companies? -   The pension funds for a start









						Next Labour leader odds: There are now FIVE front-runners...
					

As the Tories' succession race drags on, we're looking at the other side of the Parliamentary benches. Here are your next Labour leader odds.




					www.thelondoneconomic.com


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 15, 2022)

This is good stuff from Labour - preventing price rises and hitting the corporate profits that are the main driver of inflation.

The Times front page suggests that even 75% of tory voters support the Labour plan to windfall tax the energy companies to freeze energy bills.  Truss's team will (or should) recognize that their 'tax cuts for the rich to 'solve inflation' fantasy is now dead.  Effective in appealing to their members, but useless in the real world.

If Starmer's advisors are not totally cloth eared they will also learn two things a) that their caution and slowness is and will be portrayed as indecision and a lack of a plan and b) that now going further - for example by announcing that the energy companies, water companies and other key utilities will be bought back into public ownership by Labour - would be equally popular.

Leaving ideology etc out of it, not to now call for it would be shit political judgement on any measure. I fully expect Labour not to learn the lessons, but a clear plan based on public ownership, planning and a serious short and long term plan to grip energy supply and costs would put Labour in the box seat and an incoming Truss administration in a place where corporation tat cuts etc will build a mounting fury against it from day one.









						Starmer says his radical plan to freeze energy bills is needed to cut inflation
					

Labour leader contrasts his party’s proposal to help households with the inaction of ‘lame duck’ government




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## PR1Berske (Aug 15, 2022)




----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Aug 15, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Leaving ideology etc out of it, not to now call for it would be shit political judgement on any measure. I fully expect Labour not to learn the lessons, but a clear plan based on public ownership, planning and a serious short and long term plan to grip energy supply and costs would put Labour in the box seat and an incoming Truss administration in a place where corporation tat cuts etc will build a mounting fury against it from day one.



There's a really basic numbers game here isn't there. On the one side you've got people with significant investments in energy companies, people rich enough not to care, and the relatively small number of genuine free market true believer types (who probably mostly fit into the first two categories anyway). On the other side you've got everybody else, including the overwhelming majority of the swing voters they care about so much. Should be an ideal opportunity for such sharp political operators as they are to gain a win...


----------



## SysOut (Aug 15, 2022)

PR1Berske said:


>



That, too, is giving money to the shareholders, subsidising huge profits.


----------



## kabbes (Aug 15, 2022)

I don’t think even those with significant investments in energy companies should get too bothered. Energy companies make their profits across the globe.  By contrast, the UK government can only legally tax profits made in the UK, which will be a very small percentage of this. The energy companies will be just fine.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 15, 2022)

SysOut said:


> That, too, is giving money to the shareholders, subsidising huge profits.



Except the backdated and extended windfall tax will reduce profits and therefore shareholder dividend. But, of course, your wider point is correct. The TUC estimate that it would cost less than £3 Bn to buy the energy companies. it is the logical next step, it is politically popular and: in both the short and long term is the only sensible way to control energy supply, prices and solve the more strategic problems like storage etc.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 15, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Except the backdated and extended windfall tax will reduce profits and therefore shareholder dividend. But, of course, your wider point is correct. The TUC estimate that it would cost less than £3 Bn to buy the energy companies. it is the logical next step, it is politically popular and: in both the short and long term is the only sensible way to control energy supply, prices and solve the more strategic problems like storage etc.


and that's precisely why the government won't do it


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 15, 2022)

shammer never fails to disappoint


----------



## MickiQ (Aug 15, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> The TUC estimate that it would cost less than £3 Bn to buy the energy companies.


That's got to just be the distribution companies, the Bulbs and OVO's of this world (which are mostly accounts and marketing depts) the actual infrastructure and generating capability has got to be one hell of a lot more than that.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 15, 2022)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Rightwing neo-liberals like Sunak and Reeves always find the magic money tree for giant corporations don't they? Funny that.



Yeah Sunak found another two years of tax breaks for Amazon on the magic tree.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 15, 2022)

kabbes said:


> I don’t think even those with significant investments in energy companies should get too bothered. Energy companies make their profits across the globe.  By contrast, the UK government can only legally tax profits made in the UK, which will be a very small percentage of this. The energy companies will be just fine.



Lots of the money made in the UK will disappear offshore as well.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 15, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> That's got to just be the distribution companies, the Bulbs and OVO's of this world (which are mostly accounts and marketing depts) the actual infrastructure and generating capability has got to be one hell of a lot more than that.



Yes it is. The nationalised energy company would still need to buy the gas. . We used to own most of BP and Shell but that was sold (of course).


----------



## steeplejack (Aug 15, 2022)

Raheem said:


>





Raheem said:


> _Why am I Mister Yellow?_



What is this, a pilot for a new reality TV show on Channel 5 about aircraft baggage handlers?

_Can "Sir" Keith find a judicious compromise with the team and the notorious no. 4 carousel at London Luton Airport? Thousands of impatient travellers rely on his Judgement of Solomon. And will his target-oriented leadership of cost-effective baggage solutions come under threat from the ambitious visions of junior suitacse-slinger, Lisa Nandy? Tune in to see if this bullshit makes it past the piliot episode._


----------



## MickiQ (Aug 15, 2022)

Starmer saying I will freeze prices at the current level if I were in charge is a bit pointless tbh on account of him not being in charge and no chance of him being in charge for a couple of years at least by which time things will have moved on one way another. Be it  prices have fallen again or a quarter of the population have died of the cold. 
He can't do anything now so something bold like "We Will Nationalise Energy Distribution if We Win in 2 Years" is probably going to get him more support than "We Would Do Things Differently If We Were In Now But We're Not"


----------



## emanymton (Aug 15, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> Starmer saying I will freeze prices at the current level if I were in charge is a bit pointless tbh on account of him not being in charge and no chance of him being in charge for a couple of years at least by which time things will have moved on one way another. Be it  prices have fallen again or a quarter of the population have died of the cold.
> He can't do anything now so something bold like "We Will Nationalise Energy Distribution if We Win in 2 Years" is probably going to get him more support than "We Would Do Things Differently If We Were In Now But We're Not"


Almost like that is the point of it.


----------



## Idris2002 (Aug 15, 2022)

JimW said:


> We've had our chips.


Yet you have not found a role.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 16, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> This is good stuff from Labour - preventing price rises and hitting the corporate profits that are the main driver of inflation.
> 
> The Times front page suggests that even 75% of tory voters support the Labour plan to windfall tax the energy companies to freeze energy bills.  Truss's team will (or should) recognize that their 'tax cuts for the rich to 'solve inflation' fantasy is now dead.  Effective in appealing to their members, but useless in the real world.
> 
> ...



As I was saying. Even Tories support nationalisation and Labour’s plan.









						Two-thirds of Tory voters back temporary nationalisation of energy firms – poll
					

Opinium poll also shows overwhelming support for Labour’s policy to freeze price cap




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## brogdale (Aug 16, 2022)

Ouch.


----------



## TopCat (Aug 16, 2022)

summarise?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 16, 2022)

TopCat said:


> summarise?


Not on a day like today


----------



## SysOut (Aug 16, 2022)

TopCat said:


> summarise?


The leader of the LibDems giving a speech, but she has Starmers face


----------



## Calamity1971 (Aug 16, 2022)

SysOut said:


> The leader of the LibDems giving a speech, but she has Starmers face


I would never have clicked that   .


----------



## xenon (Aug 16, 2022)

Ha I'd forgotten about her. Jo whatsname? What an accent. And the bus thing. Literally not heard of since 2019. Fair play.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 16, 2022)

Calamity1971 said:


> I would never have clicked that   .


And no one could have blamed you


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 16, 2022)

xenon said:


> Ha I'd forgotten about her. Jo whatsname? What an accent. And the bus thing. Literally not heard of since 2019. Fair play.


She has started a new life as a hermit off St Helena


----------



## TopCat (Aug 16, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> She has started a new life as a hermit off St Helena


Selling wellness courses.


----------



## oryx (Aug 16, 2022)

brogdale said:


> Ouch.



I just clocked a load of Labour right-wingers, then Jo Swinson over-egging herself. 

Made me realise that I had completely forgotten about The Tinge.  

Probably a good thing, and no, I didn't notice that Swinson had Starmer's face either!


----------



## killer b (Aug 16, 2022)

She actually has a directorship at a non-profit and a visiting professor's role at a crap University. Not too shabby for six months as leader of the lib dems.


----------



## Karl Masks (Aug 16, 2022)

brogdale said:


> Ouch.



The new aphex twin  video


----------



## SysOut (Aug 16, 2022)

oryx said:


> I just clocked a load of Labour right-wingers, then Jo Swinson over-egging herself.
> 
> Made me realise that I had completely forgotten about The Tinge.
> 
> Probably a good thing, and no, I didn't notice that Swinson had Starmer's face either!


Now,I'm confused. I'd forgotten what she looked like, but now, after checking, I see that she already looks a bit like Starmer, so I don't know now if the video's been manipulated.


----------



## oryx (Aug 16, 2022)

SysOut said:


> Now,I'm confused. I'd forgotten what she looked like, but now, after checking, I see that she already looks a bit like Starmer, so I don't know now if the video's been manipulated.


Definitely Starmer's face.


----------



## Leighsw2 (Aug 17, 2022)

brogdale said:


> Ouch.



A useful reminder just how hopeless (and unpopular) centrist politics has been in this country over the last 12 years. Note how it's the Guardian trying to juxtaposition the 'Independent Group' renegades from right-wing Labour with Jo Swinson's Liberal Democrats - their idea of a 'progressive alliance'. It completely folded in the General Election later that year, but served a very useful purpose in siphoning off some of the more gullible 'remain' voters from Labour, thereby boosting Johnson's majority.


----------



## PR1Berske (Aug 17, 2022)

TIG/Independent Group/Change UK is exactly why there won't be a split in mainstream parties for some time yet. The shadow of that disaster will reach over decades to come.


----------



## steveseagull (Aug 17, 2022)

So anyway, we are predictably back to where we are are under the tenure of the grown ups.

That bastard Corbyn paid off £25 million of Labour debt and left £13 million in the bank account upon his departure.

So the grownups have pissed £18 million up the wall in two years and left the party £5 million in debt.


----------



## Chilli.s (Aug 17, 2022)

And they didnt even ask them why they didnt want to be members anymore.


----------



## emanymton (Aug 17, 2022)

steveseagull said:


> So anyway, we are predictably back to where we are are under the tenure of the grown ups.
> 
> That bastard Corbyn paid off £25 million of Labour debt and left £13 million in the bank account upon his departure.
> 
> So the grownups have pissed £18 million up the wall in two years and left the party £5 million in debt.



The tweet doesn't say they are £5 million in debit it says they mad a loss of £5 million. So that would be a loss of £5 not £18 million. Unless the tweet has it wrong?


----------



## steveseagull (Aug 17, 2022)

emanymton said:


> The tweet doesn't say they are £5 million in debit it says they mad a loss of £5 million. So that would be a loss of £5 not £18 million. Unless the tweet has it wrong?


I am basing that on Corbyn leaving the party with £18m surplus in 2020 and the grown ups now getting the party £5m in debt.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Aug 17, 2022)

steveseagull said:


> I am basing that on Corbyn leaving the party with £18m surplus in 2020 and the grown ups now getting the party £5m in debt.



No emanymton is right, it says a £5m loss in this financial year, not a £5m debt. The substantial point still stands - they're losing a shitload of money - but you are overegging it a bit.


----------



## Karl Masks (Aug 17, 2022)

steveseagull said:


> So anyway, we are predictably back to where we are are under the tenure of the grown ups.
> 
> That bastard Corbyn paid off £25 million of Labour debt and left £13 million in the bank account upon his departure.
> 
> ...



"You can't put a price on being electable"

(101 Diamond Sutras, the Dalai Starmer Collection)


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 17, 2022)

Chilli.s said:


> And they didnt even ask them why they didnt want to be members anymore.



Couldn't afford 100,000 stamps.


----------



## Plumdaff (Aug 17, 2022)

They also misused a lot of the ex members data and are currently not cooperating with the legal process on the lawsuit. They will eventually have to pay out on it.


----------



## flypanam (Aug 17, 2022)

Smokeandsteam said:


> This is good stuff from Labour - preventing price rises and hitting the corporate profits that are the main driver of inflation.
> 
> The Times front page suggests that even 75% of tory voters support the Labour plan to windfall tax the energy companies to freeze energy bills.  Truss's team will (or should) recognize that their 'tax cuts for the rich to 'solve inflation' fantasy is now dead.  Effective in appealing to their members, but useless in the real world.
> 
> ...


Haven’t been following what Labour says it would do, because Labour. Didn’tSteve Reed, rule out any nationalisation? Under Shitter’s plans won’t they have to find 35billion in the next quarter and the one after that too?


----------



## steveseagull (Aug 17, 2022)

Under shitter's plans, he will continue to give billions to price gouging con artists instead of using the money to fuck the price gouging con artists off.


----------



## lazythursday (Aug 17, 2022)

Plumdaff said:


> They also misused a lot of the ex members data and are currently not cooperating with the legal process on the lawsuit. They will eventually have to pay out on it.


Incidentally I am still receiving emails and calls from Labour despite quitting well over 18 months ago and repeatedly unsubscribing and asking for my data to be deleted. Their data compliance is still an utter shitshow.


----------



## editor (Aug 18, 2022)

What a disaster that pointless gibbering load of nothing Starmer has been.


----------



## steveseagull (Aug 18, 2022)

I think we have already touched on this but this article about the treatment of Aspana Begum should give you every reason you need not to vote for Labour.










						A Domestic Violence Expert Warned Keir Starmer That Labour Was Complicit in Apsana Begum’s ‘Abuse’. He Did Nothing | Novara Media
					

Exclusive: A domestic violence expert begged Keir Starmer to save Apsana Begum from a trigger ballot process she described as an ‘extension of [her] abuse’. The Labour leader let it continue. Rivkah Brown reports.




					novaramedia.com
				




It has gained a lot of traction online forcing Keith to reply to John McDonnel with a complete lie.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 18, 2022)

steveseagull said:


> I think we have already touched on this but this article about the treatment of Aspana Begum should give you every reason you need not to vote for Labour.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



there's a reason he's called shammer, for so much of what he does is a sham


----------



## bellaozzydog (Aug 19, 2022)

bellaozzydog said:


> I’ve got mixed emotions about supertanski I like her spicy delivery, real anger and dystopia warning style. But she’s a starmer Stan



Supertanski seems to have getting into attack mode against anyone who has in anyway criticised Starmer

Apparently It’s gonna be on left wing former Labour voters if the Tories get in again. 

She broaches tactical voting but her underlying message seems to be real socialists are wankers

Develop a party with policies and people people like and trust and they’ll vote for them

What a mess


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 19, 2022)

Isn’t she a parody account?


----------



## bellaozzydog (Aug 19, 2022)

Orang Utan said:


> Isn’t she a parody account?


I don’t think so









						The Table | Dan Hodges vs SuperTanskiii
					

What happens when papers like The Daily Mail can lie without accountability? Tonight, Mail columnist Dan Hodges is in the hot seat with SuperTanskiii and Marina Purkiss to answer exactly this.




					byline.tv


----------



## killer b (Aug 19, 2022)

Orang Utan said:


> Isn’t she a parody account?


She's one of those people who've mistaken portmanteau swearwords for politics


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 19, 2022)

Eungh, they’re all so fake


----------



## ska invita (Aug 19, 2022)

Labour sets out plan to link minimum wage to cost of living
					

Exclusive: earnings of lowest-paid could rise by £832; lower rates for 18- to 22-year-olds to be scrapped




					www.theguardian.com
				




small print: minimum wage to go up 40p per hour   (and not even hit £10 ph)


----------



## steveseagull (Aug 19, 2022)

Orang Utan said:


> Isn’t she a parody account?


No. She is the full dreadful deal.


----------



## xenon (Aug 19, 2022)

it is still quite bizarre that the labour grey suit think lurching to the right is the key to electoral success. Don’t frighten the business people. I know. But they are choking in their own bubble.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 19, 2022)

ska invita said:


> Labour sets out plan to link minimum wage to cost of living
> 
> 
> Exclusive: earnings of lowest-paid could rise by £832; lower rates for 18- to 22-year-olds to be scrapped
> ...


Not bad; at that rate the extra from just 140 hours of graft would be enough to pay your Labour Party membership fees for the year.


----------



## Raheem (Aug 19, 2022)

Orang Utan said:


> Isn’t she a parody account?


Aren't we all?


----------



## steveseagull (Aug 19, 2022)

The young people who were enthused with Corbyn policies   (there being a future for them etc)  and the older activists seem to have left the Labour Party behind and along with the Labour Movement are moving on with Enough is Enough.

They have signed up 400,00 supporters in a little over ten days.

Their rally at Clapham Grand was packed to the rafters last night.

The biggest hindrance to the Labour movement is the Labour party and it is time to let the Starmer's thugs and the middle class twits like Super Tanski and the briefcase enthusiasts run it into the ground.

It is hard to start a new political party from scratch but with union backing and money, it can be done. It has been done. There is not a better time.


----------



## Raheem (Aug 19, 2022)

steveseagull said:


> It is hard to start a new political party from scratch


Starting one is the easy part.


----------



## Calamity1971 (Aug 19, 2022)

Orang Utan said:


> Isn’t she a parody account?


She should be.


----------



## teqniq (Aug 20, 2022)

She has indeed been treated very badly by the leadership:









						A Domestic Violence Expert Warned Keir Starmer That Labour Was Complicit in Apsana Begum’s ‘Abuse’. He Did Nothing | Novara Media
					

Exclusive: A domestic violence expert begged Keir Starmer to save Apsana Begum from a trigger ballot process she described as an ‘extension of [her] abuse’. The Labour leader let it continue. Rivkah Brown reports.




					novaramedia.com


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Aug 21, 2022)

killer b said:


> She's one of those people who've mistaken portmanteau swearwords for politics



Nothing I hate more than the animal + swear word combinations e.g. ‘wankpuffin’ ‘shitgibbon’ ‘cocksquirrel’ etc. imo anybody who uses them (except to point out how awful they are) should be destroyed.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 21, 2022)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Nothing I hate more than the animal + swear word combinations e.g. ‘wankpuffin’ ‘shitgibbon’ ‘cocksquirrel’ etc. imo anybody who uses them (except to point out how awful they are) should be destroyed.


She’s such  cockwomble, isn’t she?


----------



## Rob Ray (Aug 21, 2022)

Raheem said:


> Starting one is the easy part.


Utterly predictable isn't it. There's basically three strategies the cobweb left has been circling round for the last four decades.

1. Marches of the damned (which are ignored, see Iraq, People's Assembly, anti-austerity, Kill the Bill etc etc)
2. Capturing Labour (which just failed, again)
3. Starting a new party (which is stymied by a combination of first past the post and the same impossibility of creating a sufficient electoral coalition to overcome the Establishment, Tories and Labour right that did for Corbs).

(I'd add "build the unions" but that's basically just been a form of movement maintenance underpinning strategies 1-3.)


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 21, 2022)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Nothing I hate more than the animal + swear word combinations e.g. ‘wankpuffin’ ‘shitgibbon’ ‘cocksquirrel’ etc. imo anybody who uses them (except to point out how awful they are) should be destroyed.


Yeh they're all shitdodos


----------



## Serge Forward (Aug 21, 2022)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Nothing I hate more than the animal + swear word combinations e.g. ‘wankpuffin’ ‘shitgibbon’ ‘cocksquirrel’ etc. imo anybody who uses them (except to point out how awful they are) should be destroyed.


What? Even for fuckpig?


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Aug 21, 2022)

Perma-ban requested for brogdale, Pickman's and Serge please? 🙏


----------



## JimW (Aug 21, 2022)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Perma-ban requested for brogdale, Pickman's and Serge please? 🙏


A trio of nippletrouts if ever there was.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 21, 2022)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Perma-ban requested for brogdale, Pickman's and Serge please? 🙏


That's a perma-bandicoot I suppose


----------



## agricola (Aug 21, 2022)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Perma-ban requested for brogdale, Pickman's and Serge please? 🙏



the trilo'shites


----------



## brogdale (Aug 21, 2022)

tbf to Jeff Robinson ...they do raise the important philosophical question of the thread; is a Womble and animal?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 21, 2022)

brogdale said:


> tbf to Jeff Robinson ...they do raise the important philosophical question of the thread; is a Womble and animal?


Glad you didn't tag the troublesome poster you name or he'd be wittering on about it for at least the next six years


----------



## ska invita (Aug 21, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> Utterly predictable isn't it. There's basically three strategies the cobweb left has been circling round for the last four decades.
> 
> 1. Marches of the damned (which are ignored, see Iraq, People's Assembly, anti-austerity, Kill the Bill etc etc)
> 2. Capturing Labour (which just failed, again)
> ...


 there's going to be a series of pre-revolutionary general strikes later in the year, a prelude to a full workers takeover, so we can move on from the above once and for all


----------



## Calamity1971 (Aug 21, 2022)

Why do people fund this dickhead?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 22, 2022)

Calamity1971 said:


> Why do people fund this dickhead?



it'd be a reason to crucify him again


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 22, 2022)

Is that Supertanski person anything at all besides a twitter gobshite?


----------



## ska invita (Aug 22, 2022)

SpookyFrank said:


> Is that Supertanski person anything at all besides a twitter gobshite?


No, totally irrelevant


----------



## hitmouse (Aug 24, 2022)

Do we need a "Sir Keir Starmer QC dressed as a..." thread?


----------



## two sheds (Aug 24, 2022)

is that before he went to Liverpool?


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Aug 24, 2022)

from teh tweeter


----------



## Spandex (Aug 24, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> Do we need a "Sir Keir Starmer QC dressed as a..." thread?


The many faces of Sir Keir Starmer, QC...

Sir Keir dressed as a QC







Sir Keir dressed as a QC






Sir Keir dressed as a QC






Sir Keir dressed as a QC






Sir Keir dressed as a QC






Sir Keir dressed as a QC






Sir Keir dressed as a QC


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 24, 2022)

Spandex said:


> The many faces of Sir Keir Starmer, QC...
> 
> Sir Keir dressed as a QC
> 
> ...


I look forward to when he's dressed as the accused


----------



## ska invita (Aug 24, 2022)

ska invita said:


> Labour sets out plan to link minimum wage to cost of living
> 
> 
> Exclusive: earnings of lowest-paid could rise by £832; lower rates for 18- to 22-year-olds to be scrapped
> ...


btw if i saw what i half saw this morning TUC officially backing £15ph minimum wage - Labour currently suggesting an increase to £9.90


----------



## PR1Berske (Aug 24, 2022)

So many varied ties. Sunset red, oxblood, blush, rose, ketchup.


----------



## bluescreen (Aug 24, 2022)

PR1Berske said:


> So many varied ties. Sunset red, oxblood, blush, rose, ketchup.


This post popped up without context and I wondered for a moment what the connections were between these evocative and banal items.


----------



## belboid (Aug 24, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> I look forward to when he's dressed as the accused


Same, but with a blue tie


----------



## LDC (Aug 25, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> Do we need a "Sir Keir Starmer QC dressed as a..." thread?
> View attachment 339403



Yeah, caption competition maybe? Something about helmets? Just saw this which made me cringe as well. Apologies, Guardian obviously.


----------



## SysOut (Aug 25, 2022)

"I know you think me paranoid, but I really do need this protection"


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 26, 2022)

LDC said:


> Yeah, caption competition maybe? Something about helmets? Just saw this which made me cringe as well. Apologies, Guardian obviously.
> 
> View attachment 339592



Man becomes invisible.

Then puts on camouflage.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Aug 26, 2022)

Forward march! right, right, right right right!


----------



## TopCat (Aug 26, 2022)

Tooled up and off to Ukraine.


----------



## PR1Berske (Aug 27, 2022)




----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 27, 2022)

Oh for fuck's sake. Don't they realise that every time they do something stupid like this to appease the tabloids, the tabloids just come up with something else to whinge about?


----------



## magneze (Aug 27, 2022)

Why had this even come up?


----------



## TopCat (Aug 28, 2022)

Focus groups


----------



## PR1Berske (Aug 31, 2022)




----------



## Karl Masks (Aug 31, 2022)

"we failed"

but that's not true, is it. Your handling of Brexit alieanted people while your party were visibly and violently divided. Your own mp's called for people to vote Tory.

But you didn't fail. You won. You're now leader, and the only difference being a PM would make to your career is a few extra quid and a brief load more responsibilities. That's the big lie of being in Parliament. Once you're in, it doesn't really matter what side of the aisle you sit on. What matters is doing what you can to keep your seat.


----------



## LDC (Aug 31, 2022)

Tedious Waitrose customers is a pretty good diss tbf.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 31, 2022)

LDC said:


> Tedious Waitrose customers is a pretty good diss tbf.


Steady,  we had a small fracas on our hands here sometime ago when some of us had a go at Waitrose users


----------



## LDC (Aug 31, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Steady,  we had a small fracas on our hands here sometime ago when some of us had a go at Waitrose users



Small fracas sounds like something you'd get from their fancy chilled counter.


----------



## TopCat (Aug 31, 2022)

Waitrose  shoppers would rather kill than go Asda. Cost of living crisis may hit hard.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 31, 2022)

LDC said:


> Small fracas sounds like something you'd get from their fancy chilled counter.


Normally picked up by certain Urbanites in the reduced section


----------



## Raheem (Aug 31, 2022)

TopCat said:


> Waitrose  shoppers would rather kill than go Asda. Cost of living crisis may hit hard.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 31, 2022)

TopCat said:


> Waitrose  shoppers would rather kill than go Asda. Cost of living crisis may hit hard.


And few fortnums regulars will go to waitrose...


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 31, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Steady,  we had a small fracas on our hands here sometime ago when some of us had a go at Waitrose users


Tbh waitrose has been something of a disappointment recently, they've really reduced the lines they offer


----------



## TopCat (Aug 31, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> And few fortnums regulars will go to waitrose...


To be fair Fortnums seems full of tourists these days with a focus on tourist tat. 
I used to buy special veg there thirty years ago. Great selection and great quality. No more though. Well not so much.


----------



## moochedit (Aug 31, 2022)

TopCat said:


> Waitrose  shoppers would rather kill than go Asda. Cost of living crisis may hit hard.



The horror    ((waitrose shoppers))


----------



## Chilli.s (Aug 31, 2022)

My housemate organises the shopping, and Waitrose deliver it, when I asked why I was told that it was purely to piss the neighbours off


----------



## Leighsw2 (Aug 31, 2022)

Waitrose deliver to me every week. Surely this is quite routine? (though I quite agree with Owen's point about tedious Waitrose centrists.)


----------



## steveseagull (Sep 1, 2022)

interesting day for Starmer's chief cheerleader Supertanskiii. She has spent the day smearing trade unionists but that came to a shuddering halt when she had to lock her account after some Tweets emerged from 2019. Turns out she is a 9/11 truther and thinks Israel was behind 9/11.

Wild crash and burn.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 1, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> Tbh waitrose has been something of a disappointment recently, they've really reduced the lines they offer


They’re going one ‘better’ in Croydon and shutting the Waitrose branch altogether. One less yellow label hunting ground. ☹️


----------



## magneze (Sep 1, 2022)

In a dream last night I was being chased but Kier Starmer kept telling them where I was.


----------



## Whagwan (Sep 1, 2022)

"I only became an antisemitic 9/11 truther because of a difficult break-up."


----------



## Sue (Sep 1, 2022)

Whagwan said:


> View attachment 340611
> 
> "I only became an antisemitic 9/11 truther because of a difficult break-up."


It's like 'I came out with sexist/racist/homophobic stuff because I'd had a few too many.'


----------



## ruffneck23 (Sep 1, 2022)

me and super tan...


----------



## oryx (Sep 1, 2022)

Whagwan said:


> View attachment 340611
> 
> "I only became an antisemitic 9/11 truther because of a difficult break-up."


Wonder if she'll get kicked out of the Labour party for antisemitism (she should, assuming she's a member if she's a Starmer cheerleader).


----------



## Karl Masks (Sep 1, 2022)

Whagwan said:


> View attachment 340611
> 
> "I only became an antisemitic 9/11 truther because of a difficult break-up."


What were the documentaries? Couldn't just manage some Jennifer Aniston shit like normal people?

"I dabbled in racism because everyone else was"?


----------



## Karl Masks (Sep 1, 2022)

steveseagull said:


> interesting day for Starmer's chief cheerleader Supertanskiii. She has spent the day smearing trade unionists but that came to a shuddering halt when she had to lock her account after some Tweets emerged from 2019. Turns out she is a 9/11 truther and thinks Israel was behind 9/11.
> 
> Wild crash and burn.



Not to sneer, but it takes some credulousness to watch or recommend Loose Change in 2019


----------



## ruffneck23 (Sep 1, 2022)

I think she has blocked me, oh well.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Sep 1, 2022)

Whagwan said:


> View attachment 340611
> 
> "I only became an antisemitic 9/11 truther because of a difficult break-up."



_How to turn an unconvincing pseudo apology into a dig at Jeremy Corbyn._

Christ if she didn't exist, Starmer would have had to invent her. And if he had invented her, she'd no doubt be exactly as shit as this.


----------



## two sheds (Sep 1, 2022)

SpookyFrank said:


> _How to turn an unconvincing pseudo apology into a dig at Jeremy Corbyn._


Yes I wasn't sure whether I'd misunderstood at first  


SpookyFrank said:


> Christ if she didn't exist, Starmer would have had to invent her. And if he had invented her, she'd no doubt be exactly as shit as this.


I was an anti semite but I got better, and nobody else from on the left did.


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 1, 2022)

Whagwan said:


> View attachment 340611
> 
> "I only became an antisemitic 9/11 truther because of a difficult break-up."


Same.

Well, it was a weekend of heavy drinking.

Well, I’d had some coffee.

And it wasn’t a breakup. We’d had words about how to load the dishwasher most efficiently.

And I didn’t blame the Jews.

I’m fact, come to think of it, that’s a pile of shite, Tanskiii.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 1, 2022)

Sue said:


> It's like 'I came out with sexist/racist/homophobic stuff because I'd had a few too many.'


David Bowie etc.


----------



## nino_savatte (Sep 2, 2022)

Ultimate Starmer fan boy, Thom Brooks, offers his, erm, analysis.


----------



## Whagwan (Sep 3, 2022)

SuperTanskii meltdown is continuing and intensifying.  So far she's in the last few days she's called Ash Sarkar a cunt then insisted that everyone mildly mocking her for being a nob is a paid pile-on;she'll reveal who at some point.  

Oh and she's also blaming Corbyn supporters for someone's suicide (I'm not sure but I think it may be Pete Newbon she is referring to)


----------



## PursuedByBears (Sep 3, 2022)

Whagwan said:


> SuperTanskii meltdown is continuing and intensifying.  So far she's in the last few days she's called Ash Sarkar a cunt then insisted that everyone mildly mocking her for being a nob is a paid pile-on;she'll reveal who at some point.
> 
> Oh and she's also blaming Corbyn supporters for someone's suicide (I'm not sure but I think it may be Pete Newbon she is referring to)
> 
> View attachment 340833


Not having a go at you, but who cares about some random on Twitter?


----------



## N_igma (Sep 3, 2022)

PursuedByBears said:


> Not having a go at you, but who cares about some random on Twitter?


These people have a huge reach in terms of views on Twitter. Their shite needs to be challenged lest impressionable people reading their tweets take them at face value and continue to spread their lies. She has me blocked anyway, one of those who can dish out abuse easily but can’t take any criticism whatsoever themselves.


----------



## Karl Masks (Sep 3, 2022)

Who is she referring to re: suicide? That's a fucked up allegation otherwise! :O


----------



## Cid (Sep 3, 2022)

N_igma said:


> These people have a huge reach in terms of views on Twitter. Their shite needs to be challenged lest impressionable people reading their tweets take them at face value and continue to spread their lies. She has me blocked anyway, one of those who can dish out abuse easily but can’t take any criticism whatsoever themselves.



Yeah, I think one of the things we really should have learned over the last 6 years or so is not to underestimate the power of random idiots on twitter.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Sep 3, 2022)

Whagwan said:


> SuperTanskii meltdown is continuing and intensifying.  So far she's in the last few days she's called Ash Sarkar a cunt then insisted that everyone mildly mocking her for being a nob is a paid pile-on;she'll reveal who at some point.
> 
> Oh and she's also blaming Corbyn supporters for someone's suicide (I'm not sure but I think it may be Pete Newbon she is referring to)
> 
> View attachment 340833



Dogpiling is her entire thing as far as I can tell.


----------



## ruffneck23 (Sep 3, 2022)

N_igma said:


> These people have a huge reach in terms of views  She has me blocked anyway, one of those who can dish out abuse easily but can’t take any criticism whatsoever themselves.


indeed, I can confirm she blocked me for the exchange posted up thread, which I didn't think was that harsh.


----------



## emanymton (Sep 3, 2022)

PursuedByBears said:


> Not having a go at you, but who cares about some random on Twitter?


People seem to keep posting her shit tweets on here. I care as this might stop them.


----------



## ruffneck23 (Sep 3, 2022)

emanymton said:


> People seem to keep posting her shit tweets on here. I care as this might stop them.


Guilty as charged a few months ago, but rest assured, no more.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 3, 2022)

ruffneck23 said:


> Guilty as charged a few months ago, but rest assured, no more.


----------



## bellaozzydog (Sep 3, 2022)

ruffneck23 said:


> indeed, i can confirm
> she blocked me for the exchange posted up thread, which I didn't think was that harsh.


She blocked me after pointing out the exact point she got “brought onboard as a useful idiot” by the Labour comms team

I’ll be honest I liked her non politics political dystopia warning rants just a shame she slid into Labour centrist propaganda and was entirely unprepared for the fairly basic mass questioning of her new political analysis


----------



## steveseagull (Sep 3, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> Who is she referring to re: suicide? That's a fucked up allegation otherwise! :O


Pete Newbon.

He was an academic at Durham university. He was well in with all of the Gnasherjew trolls and other various far right pro Israel types.

he photoshopped Jeremy Corbyn reading Micheal Rosen's Going on a Bear Hunt to some kids and replaced it with 'The Protocols of the Elders of Zion'
Obviously Michael was furious and saw it as an antisemitic attack. Newbon was then given a final warning by Durham Uni for his conduct which suggests he was already on thin ice.

He was pulled apart ruthlessly on Twitter and took his own life about seven months later.

What these cranks do not mention is he was up to his neck in defamation cases. There were two or three cases he was dead cert to lose.

He had been Tweeting that these people were paedos if i remember correctly.

Damages were paid out of his estate.


----------



## teqniq (Sep 4, 2022)

steveseagull said:


> Pete Newbon.
> 
> He was an academic at Durham university. He was well in with all of the Gnasherjew trolls and other various far right types.
> 
> ...


It gets worse then. I hope somebody pulls her on that or already has.


----------



## two sheds (Sep 4, 2022)

Briefly, before she blocks them.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 4, 2022)

Can we start to get off this randoms twitter stuff?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 4, 2022)

Tanksiii is a shammerite device to derail criticism of the great man


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 4, 2022)

What other ploys does shammer deploy?


----------



## TopCat (Sep 4, 2022)

Boohoo


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 4, 2022)

TopCat said:


> Boohoo


Oh


----------



## DJWrongspeed (Sep 9, 2022)

Starmer in statesman mode in HoP today. About x10 more articulate than Truss, this is not hard to do though😆


----------



## brogdale (Sep 9, 2022)

Pre-Fred Perry/consolidator statesman era Starmer:


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 9, 2022)

TopCat said:


> Boohoo


What about Asos?


----------



## TopCat (Sep 9, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> What about Asos?











						ASOS has released its 2022 advent calendars and one is worth over £310
					

ASOS is known for its yearly advent calendars, featuring products from top beauty brands. The value of the products included is much higher than the cost, so beauty lovers are getting great value for money.




					www.express.co.uk


----------



## Elpenor (Sep 10, 2022)

Can’t decide who has a more grating voice, Truss or Starmer


----------



## Elpenor (Sep 14, 2022)

Labour MPs warned about talking to media except for Queen tributes
					

But some MPs believe party should speak out about cost of living, inflation and arrests of protesters




					www.theguardian.com
				




More great stuff from Starmer.

No politics please, we’re British


----------



## Humberto (Sep 14, 2022)

Wet dish rag.


----------



## oryx (Sep 15, 2022)

> The advice also says “you should not post anything on social media, except your own tribute or what you have been asked to share from the PLP office … you should make sure any posts on social media do not include political branding”.


Get rid.


----------



## Elpenor (Sep 15, 2022)

I saw another story that he’s going to the coffin for some private mourning with his family - and this will be after he’s been to the initial ceremony at Westminster hall. 

The feudal fetishism theatric level is unreal


----------



## two sheds (Sep 15, 2022)

I hate starmer as much as the next but you do have to say that any labour mp who says "well I'm not too sure about this monarchy malarky" will get at least five days of Sun headlines "Labour hates Our Beloved Queen they should all be shot  ".


----------



## Raheem (Sep 15, 2022)

two sheds said:


> I hate starmer as much as the next but you do have to say that any labour mp who says "well I'm not too sure about this monarchy malarky" will get at least five days of Sun headlines "Labour hates Our Beloved Queen they should all be shot  ".


He's not saying they shouldn't say anything anti-monarchist, which might be a beige-sensible directive. He's saying they shouldn't say _anything_ except how great the Queen was.


----------



## two sheds (Sep 15, 2022)

fair play, although the mail and the sun would say those two things are the same


----------



## Humberto (Sep 15, 2022)

I don't hate Starmer, I don't hate anyone really. He's decided to go the route of don't give the press any 'red scare' ammunition.

The problem is he looks (and is) milquetoast, and gives nothing (literally avoids it). And he shows no reason to put that aside and trust him.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 19, 2022)

FFS (again)


----------



## elbows (Sep 19, 2022)

He's also due to reveal the results of his medical operation to have his hands replaced with flags.


----------



## Karl Masks (Sep 19, 2022)

Starmer's just a shit Elvis lookalike that got lost for twenty years in a Daily Mail printing press


----------



## SpookyFrank (Sep 20, 2022)

brogdale said:


> FFS (again)
> 
> View attachment 343636



To be fair, there's little else going on that might need to be addressed at a party conference so they'll have a few dead spots in the schedule anyway.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 20, 2022)

SpookyFrank said:


> To be fair, there's little else going on that might need to be addressed at a party conference so they'll have a few dead spots in the schedule anyway.


Innit; time for Land of Hope and Glory/Rule Britannia and the Horst Wessel Song to fill the void.


----------



## killer b (Sep 21, 2022)

some great sessions coming up at the Labour Party Conference!


----------



## Sue (Sep 21, 2022)

killer b said:


> some great sessions coming up at the Labour Party Conference!
> 
> View attachment 343914


Growth and good jobs everywhere!


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Sep 21, 2022)




----------



## steveseagull (Sep 22, 2022)

9am tonight. The Labour Files - Al Jazeera Channel. Three parter. This evening, Saturday, Monday.

Seems they have got a load of stuff on the Labour Party. Spying on members etc Stuff that would make the Stasi blush. Senior staff member's whattapp messages that talk of stabbing Corbyn. Stuff on people still around Starmer

Saturday they have stuff that might blow the whole 'anti-Semitism crisis' and John Ware's panorama documentary out of the water

Monday not sure what that is covering.

Freeview 235
Virgin Media 622
Sky 514

Or on their YouTube Channel.

No idea how much of the above is accurate but it seems it will be a bombshell according to people who seem to be in the know.


----------



## ruffneck23 (Sep 22, 2022)

Il be watching, It might confirm my suspicions.


----------



## Karl Masks (Sep 22, 2022)

killer b said:


> some great sessions coming up at the Labour Party Conference!
> 
> View attachment 343914


Don't forget the anti monarchy discussion that the front bench are falling themselves over to disown.


----------



## steveseagull (Sep 22, 2022)

Proper journalism from Al Jazeera.   It was exceedingly fucking grim :-( 

Wonder how they got all this stuff. It seems to be troves of dirt. Reckon someone on the inside has blown the whistle.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Sep 22, 2022)

killer b said:


> some great sessions coming up at the Labour Party Conference!
> 
> View attachment 343914




“Why don’t the poor just hustle more?”


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Sep 22, 2022)

Good news if true, the barbaric HoL shithole needs to be bulldozed as soon as possible 









						Labour may abolish House of Lords if it wins next election, leaked report reveals
					

Exclusive: Constitutional review by Gordon Brown also recommends devolving economic powers




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## two sheds (Sep 22, 2022)

although it's seemed the only brake on tory legislation recently


----------



## elbows (Sep 22, 2022)

two sheds said:


> although it's seemed the only brake on tory legislation recently



Its not that much of a break, it can only slow stuff down for a year. Not that I am a constitutional expert by any stretch so who knows what detail I've botched with this view.


----------



## two sheds (Sep 22, 2022)

no I think you're right - only delays stuff


----------



## belboid (Sep 22, 2022)

Grrr.  Our reselection meeting was tonight, having been postponed after an old woman died.   One bloody vote away, one single sodding vote. And one of the lefties told me after he'd misunderstood the process and should have voted with us.  Hey ho, looks like I wont be voting Labour at the next election.


----------



## Karl Masks (Sep 23, 2022)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Good news if true, the barbaric HoL shithole needs to be bulldozed as soon as possible
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Big if, very big given SIR Keith is in charge


----------



## ska invita (Sep 23, 2022)

personally house of lords is at the bottom of the list of pressing concerns - imo largely ineffective and occasionally even exerting some positive pressure, despite its undemocratic nature
a side show issue


----------



## Plumdaff (Sep 23, 2022)

ska invita said:


> personally house of lords is at the bottom of the list of pressing concerns - imo largely ineffective and occasionally even exerting some positive pressure, despite its undemocratic nature
> a side show issue


It would be very popular with centrists


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Sep 23, 2022)

ska invita said:


> personally house of lords is at the bottom of the list of pressing concerns - imo largely ineffective and occasionally even exerting some positive pressure, despite its undemocratic nature
> a side show issue



Disagree on this. The nutters, cronies and cranks with rights to vote on and introduce legislation that are being stuffed in there - the likes of Baroness Fox and Lord Moylon for example - should be a concern for us all. It’s a feudal vestige that belongs in the garbage dump with the monarchy.


----------



## teqniq (Sep 23, 2022)

Labour right determined to exclude her:









						Labour NEC member suspended for speaking at proscribed group’s event – LabourList
					

A newly elected member of Labour's national executive committee (NEC) has revealed that she has received a 'notice of allegation and administrative suspension' for appearing…




					labourlist.org


----------



## steveseagull (Sep 23, 2022)

Full episode of last night's documentary here. Warning. It is grim.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 23, 2022)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Disagree on this. The nutters, cronies and cranks with rights to vote on and introduce legislation that are being stuffed in there - the likes of Baroness Fox and Lord Moylon for example - should be a concern for us all. It’s a feudal vestige that belongs in the garbage dump with the monarchy.


sure but when its gone let me know if you see any difference in the material conditions in this country
meanwhile everything else is on fire - its not a priority - a distraction even
just feels like a sop from Starmer to appear to be doing something radical - if it ever happens that is: its conference season and that means meaningless hot air on full blast


----------



## SysOut (Sep 23, 2022)

Has anyone calculated the wealth of the lords?


----------



## ruffneck23 (Sep 23, 2022)

steveseagull said:


> Full episode of last night's documentary here. Warning. It is grim.



Doh, I only saw the first 30 mins last night and thought it was a bit short..

Catching up now.


----------



## steveseagull (Sep 23, 2022)

ruffneck23 said:


> Doh, I only saw the first 30 mins last night and thought it was a bit short..
> 
> Catching up now.


Yes it was a bit confusing. They went onto some news pieces without really explaining there was a second half afterwards


----------



## Karl Masks (Sep 23, 2022)

ruffneck23 said:


> Doh, I only saw the first 30 mins last night and thought it was a bit short..
> 
> Catching up now.


Is it as grim as how they have treated a survivor of domestic abuse, perpetrated by one of their own (iirc, don't sue me Sir Keith! PS you're a twat)


----------



## Bingoman (Sep 23, 2022)

After the mini budget it has forecast that starmer and Labour are on course to win the next Election


----------



## steveseagull (Sep 23, 2022)

Bingoman said:


> After the mini budget it has forecast that starmer and Labour are on course to win the next Election


Wonderful. The Tories or the Stasi


----------



## SpookyFrank (Sep 23, 2022)

steveseagull said:


> Full episode of last night's documentary here. Warning. It is grim.




Wow, that _Arrgh_ is a real piece of shit.


----------



## Karl Masks (Sep 23, 2022)

ruffneck23 said:


> Doh, I only saw the first 30 mins last night and thought it was a bit short..
> 
> Catching up now.


This is just part 1! How deep does this shit go?

(I don't think I want to know)


----------



## ska invita (Sep 23, 2022)

Is there anything new in this Al JAzeera piece?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Sep 23, 2022)

ska invita said:


> Is there anything new in this Al JAzeera piece?



A lot of it is new to me, in terms of the detail at any rate. None of it is surprising though.

The suspension of CLPs by party wonks is obviously a huge problem regardless of the details of why or how it happens. That's only accelerated since the time covered in this doc IIRC.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 23, 2022)

SpookyFrank said:


> A lot of it is new to me. None of it surprising though.


Can someone give a brief oversight?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Sep 23, 2022)

ska invita said:


> Can someone give a brief oversight?



Lots of stuff about individual members and whole local parties being kiboshed due to spurious or probably false accusations from a handful of highly partisan right wingers, accusations which were then repeated as fact by the entire media. 

The new bit is the details, and the paper trail. Luke Akehurst, for example, turns out to be a shady cunt. Who knew eh?


----------



## steveseagull (Sep 23, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> This is just part 1! How deep does this shit go?
> 
> (I don't think I want to know)


Part two (Saturday) covers the 'antisemitism' crisis
Part three (Monday) covers Labour hierarchy of racism

So yeah, it had potential to get a lot deeper


----------



## steveseagull (Sep 23, 2022)

SpookyFrank said:


> Lots of stuff about individual members and whole local parties being kiboshed due to spurious or probably false accusations from a handful of highly partisan right wingers, accusations which were then repeated as fact by the entire media.
> 
> The new bit is the details, and the paper trail. Luke Akehurst, for example, turns out to be a shady cunt. Who knew eh?


I have come across Luke Stanger before online. This documentary seems to suggest he is Akehurst's hired thug which explains why he was protected from the disciplinary system


----------



## steveseagull (Sep 23, 2022)

ska invita said:


> Is there anything new in this Al JAzeera piece?


Yes. A lot of detail. Backed up by receipts. Looks like someone on the inside has handed a LOT of internal emails and documents over to AJ.


----------



## Chilli.s (Sep 23, 2022)

They have dragged themselves down to the level of the vermin...

... so its yellow peril or mildew party


----------



## Part 2 (Sep 23, 2022)

It's on YouTube


----------



## SpookyFrank (Sep 23, 2022)

Part 2 said:


> It's on YouTube




Already posted above


----------



## ska invita (Sep 23, 2022)

Kapoowwwe


----------



## steveseagull (Sep 23, 2022)

Anyone seen or heard from the fuckwit today or has he gone missing in action again?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Sep 23, 2022)

I've picked clagnuts out my arsehole that would be polling better than Starmer is against this clown show of a tory party.


----------



## Cid (Sep 23, 2022)

I mean who are Redfield & Wilton strategies, who commissioned them, what question was asked etc?

But regardless, the fucker is astoundingly good at being shit. It really is quite an achievement.


----------



## Elpenor (Sep 23, 2022)

Why has Truss been boosted? That’s more of an interesting question to me I think (even if this is the wrong thread!)

Early honeymoon period plus the not Johnson factor? Lots of non-political media exposure with the royal funeral sideshow? People feeling more patriotic after death of the queen and wanting to support the person in the chair? The energy bills fudge?


----------



## SysOut (Sep 23, 2022)

Cid said:


> I mean who are Redfield & Wilton strategies, who commissioned them, what question was asked etc?
> 
> But regardless, the fucker is astoundingly good at being shit. It really is quite an achievement.





			https://twitter.com/RedfieldWilton
		


Not sure that Labour would want to win the next election becuase they'll just find themselves in the same position as Wilson's first government, which had to deal with an inherited debt ("13 years of Tory misrule") forcing him to impose austerity measures.
Harold Wilson - Wikipedia


> In practice, however, events derailed much of the initial optimism. Upon coming to power, the government was informed that they had inherited an exceptionally large deficit of £800 million on Britain's external balance of trade. This partly reflected the preceding government's expansive fiscal policy in the run-up to the 1964 election. Immediately the pound came under enormous pressure, and many economists advocated devaluation of the pound in response


----------



## Karl Masks (Sep 23, 2022)

Chilli.s said:


> They have dragged themselves down to the level of the vermin...
> 
> ... so its yellow peril or mildew party


Unquestionably. I'm done with them. Free up some of my most tired brain cells. Now I can worry more about the Tories


----------



## steveseagull (Sep 23, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> Unquestionably. I'm done with them. Free up some of my most tired brain cells. Now I can worry more about the Tories


I was done with them about six months into Starmer's reign to be honest. No regrets.


----------



## Cid (Sep 23, 2022)

SysOut said:


> https://twitter.com/RedfieldWilton
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes, well, if you wait 13 years of Tory misrule just turns into 17 years of Tory misrule.


----------



## tim (Sep 24, 2022)

steveseagull said:


> I have come across Luke Stanger before online. This documentary seems to suggest he is Akehurst's hired thug which explains why he was protected from the disciplinary system


Luke Stanger came across as not the pleasantest of people. However, the section about the ultra-abusive and threatening messages to Damian McCarthy, the dodgy lawyer from Brighton, seemed to imply a link between the messages and  Luke Stanger but gave no evidence of such a link. 

The documentary confirmed my long-held belief that Labour Party internal politics are toxic and I assume the Tories, Liberals, and SNP are much the same. Still, whatever the reality, it's safer being a Labour Party activist than a worker on a building site in Qatar. Al Jazeera is owned by  and represents the interests of the Qatari ruling family and so is unlikely to so thoroughly investigate the latter issue.

Link to article about MCarthy's dodginess gleefully being posted by those on the Labour Right keen to rebut all allegations Public access barrister disbarred for second time


----------



## steveseagull (Sep 24, 2022)

> The leaked data comprises *500 gigabytes* of documents, emails, video and audio files from the Labour Party dating from 1998 to 2021.











						#TheLabourFiles: MP Reed provided endorsement for Stanger
					

Steve Reed OBE, the MP for Croydon North and a prime mover in the notorious “Chicken Coup” attempt to unseat Jeremy Corbyn as Labour leader in 2016, has been revealed as one of the pa…




					insidecroydon.com


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 24, 2022)

Chilli.s said:


> They have dragged themselves down to the level of the vermin...
> 
> ... so its yellow peril or mildew party


Golden shower doesn't have the dubious connotations of yellow peril


----------



## SpookyFrank (Sep 24, 2022)

tim said:


> Luke Stanger came across as not the pleasantest of people. However, the section about the ultra-abusive and threatening messages to Damian McCarthy, the dodgy lawyer from Brighton, seemed to imply a link between the messages and  Luke Stanger but gave no evidence of such a link.



Yes it was far from clear what was going on with McCarthy.


----------



## teqniq (Sep 24, 2022)

steveseagull said:


> Full episode of last night's documentary here. Warning. It is grim.



Well that made for fairly depressing viewing. Labour is as I have pretty much long suspected, irredeemable as it stands anyway. Whither now?


----------



## JimW (Sep 24, 2022)

Calling for people's growth. Don't attack your opponent's whackjob strategy, legitimate it by saying it's the right thing but needs doing differently.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 24, 2022)

JimW said:


> Calling for people's growth. Don't attack your opponent's whackjob strategy, legitimate it by saying it's the right thing but needs doing differently.


Starmer would have been a perfect fit for a LD minister in Cameron's coalition administration.


----------



## Karl Masks (Sep 24, 2022)

teqniq said:


> Well that made for fairly depressing viewing. Labour is as I have pretty much long suspected, irredeemable as it stands anyway. Whither now?


I just finished watching it. 

I found it oddly cathartic, as, I suspect, did some of those participating (except perhaps that poor guy who was reduced to tears by it all).


----------



## Karl Masks (Sep 24, 2022)

brogdale said:


> Starmer would have been a perfect fit for a LD minister in Cameron's coalition administration.


He was, given that he was DPP and was happily throwing the book at rioting kids


----------



## steveseagull (Sep 24, 2022)

Episode 2 about to air. It is covering antisemitism. it is going to be grim


----------



## emanymton (Sep 24, 2022)

SysOut said:


> https://twitter.com/RedfieldWilton
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't think any forcing will be necessary.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Sep 24, 2022)

This messaging is just perfect, compares so favourably to Labour's response to the barbaric Truss clique:


----------



## Karl Masks (Sep 24, 2022)

Ben kuntish?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Sep 24, 2022)

It’s what’s so galling about the whole thing, Corbyn was stuck in the 70s for the most part but at least he tried to sell a different way of life by invigorating the Labour campaigners and youth.  Starmer seems frozen in the headlights. No imagination at all and no vision of a way to a different or better world. Just some strange mid-2000s ideas about sticking to the centre

Lynchs anger is justified and should be worked with but no sign of Labour doing it. We don’t get an elequent union leader often and it would be nice to have the party of Labour take advantage


----------



## brogdale (Sep 24, 2022)

The absolute fucking state of the LP conference setting...


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 24, 2022)

brogdale said:


> The absolute fucking state of the LP conference setting...
> 
> View attachment 344294


Pity the keynote speaker


----------



## steveseagull (Sep 24, 2022)

Nothing i did not really know in that episode. Hoffman and Millet being chums with the EDL and other far right groups, But it did give voices to left wing Jews that have been hounded out of the party and the stress the disiplinary section were under.


----------



## steveseagull (Sep 24, 2022)

Mondays episode looks at Starmers hiarachy of racism which could be damning for him


----------



## steveseagull (Sep 24, 2022)

Though one very harrowing bit was when a eldeerley lady was expelled for antisemitism, she died very shortly after of a stroke, There staff were laughing their heads off when they heard.

Grim.


----------



## steveseagull (Sep 24, 2022)

This bit as well


----------



## steveseagull (Sep 24, 2022)

Big Mick is correct. There will never be unity with devisive  figures like Starmer and his thugs in charge


----------



## PR1Berske (Sep 25, 2022)




----------



## ruffneck23 (Sep 25, 2022)

Part 2 for anyone who is interested.


----------



## Karl Masks (Sep 25, 2022)

This second film about antisemitism is quite upsetting.

It's going to take a herculean effort for the labour party to redeem itself, and they don't want to.

However, I don't want to embolden cranks like Asa Winstanley, Max Blumenthal, Jimmy Dore, Chris Williamson


----------



## Karl Masks (Sep 25, 2022)

steveseagull said:


> Big Mick is correct. There will never be unity with devisive  figures like Starmer and his thugs in charge



Not just Starmer though, he's just the mouthpiece


----------



## PR1Berske (Sep 25, 2022)




----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Sep 25, 2022)

I hear there has been a massive increase in the sale of puke buckets in the Liverpool area.


----------



## Karl Masks (Sep 25, 2022)

God Shave The Queen


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 25, 2022)

PR1Berske said:


>



Had to hand out song sheets in case people didnt know the words


----------



## Rob Ray (Sep 25, 2022)

Difficult to tell how many people are looking uncomfortable singing it because they're being forced to participate in a piece of reactionary fan service for disaffected Tories, and who's just wearing the universal uncomfortable face brought on by having to sing a janky, poorly-paced dirge with obviously silly lyrics.


----------



## Karl Masks (Sep 25, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Had to hand out song sheets in case people didnt know the words
> 
> View attachment 344365


could have used a bigger font


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 25, 2022)

I can see the point of Starmer saying something about the Queen's death in opening the conference tbh but don't really see where a stage managed singing of the National Anthem gets them


----------



## ska invita (Sep 25, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> I can see the point of Starmer saying something about the Queen's death in opening the conference tbh but don't really see where a stage managed singing of the National Anthem gets them


has the effect of schooling LP conference - as much about internal ideology as the wider audience


----------



## Cerv (Sep 25, 2022)

makes a change from The Red Flag anyway


----------



## JimW (Sep 25, 2022)

Cerv said:


> makes a change from The Red Flag anyway


And even fewer would know the words to that.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Sep 25, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> I can see the point of Starmer saying something about the Queen's death in opening the conference tbh but don't really see where a stage managed singing of the National Anthem gets them



more positioning as an alternative conservative party in the hope of picking up a few more floating voters


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 25, 2022)

Should bring this back , although some of the policies are a bit too left wing for the present leadership.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Sep 25, 2022)




----------



## Calamity1971 (Sep 25, 2022)




----------



## SpookyFrank (Sep 25, 2022)

Jeff Robinson said:


>




Labour is increasingly acting like a cargo cult, just doing random pantomime nonsense in the hopes that the tabloid gods will be appeased and send them a few votes.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 25, 2022)

SpookyFrank said:


> Labour is increasingly acting like a cargo cult, just doing random pantomime nonsense in the hopes that the tabloid gods will be appeased and send them a few votes.


its working tbf


----------



## SysOut (Sep 25, 2022)

SpookyFrank said:


> Labour is increasingly acting like a cargo cult, just doing random pantomime nonsense in the hopes that the tabloid gods will be appeased and send them a few votes.


It started with New Labour.
It gets even more sad when one reads that twitter thread, with people showing photos of Kinnock and Brown as if that were "traditional" Labour - which it, of course, precisely isn't.
One of the characteristics of New Labour _is_ nationalism, following in the footsteps of Thatcher.
The other point not being mentioned is of course the chauvinism and nationalism of Brexit, which Labour supported, meaning that the only english party representing the pro-EU voters - arguably now more than 50pc of voters - is the LibDem party.

Other points not being considered, though raised by Pickman's model is our relationship with the USA and its plans for Europe as a whole, of which, whether some like it or not, we are a part.

Things aren't going to quiet down and improve in our continent.
What's Starmers position or role on these matters?
We assume he's an atlanticist - anything else would be heresy in a NATO land non plus ultra such as the UK.


----------



## killer b (Sep 25, 2022)

SpookyFrank said:


> Labour is increasingly acting like a cargo cult


I was thinking after the last few weeks that cargo cults seem pretty sane & rational next to the typical british subject tbf


----------



## SysOut (Sep 25, 2022)

Cargo cult - Wikipedia


> A cargo cult is an indigenist millenarian belief system, in which adherents perform rituals which they believe will cause a more technologically advanced society to deliver goods.



A new thing I learnt today.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Sep 25, 2022)

SysOut said:


> What's Starmers position or role on these matters?



whatever the most recent focus group said it should be...



SysOut said:


> The other point not being mentioned is of course the chauvinism and nationalism of Brexit, which Labour supported, meaning that the only english party representing the pro-EU voters - arguably now more than 50pc of voters - is the LibDem party.



dunno really

2017 labour said it would 'respect the result of the referendum', and got a swing big enough to bugger the tories' majority, and the lib dems didn't exactly do well.

2019 labour got in a tangle because starmer (among others) was insisting on being more remainy.  and that didn't go well either.

i'm really not sure about the flag shagging thing, and not sure the labour party can 'win' this argument whatever it does here.

it's a favourite argument of the right wing and their friends in the press (not limited to this country) that the left (or less right) party 'is unpatriotic' / 'hates this country' if it criticises the establishment / status quo, or is less shitty about immigration, which is of course bollocks.  

one alternative is labour MP's sneering at pictures of houses with 'union jack' / st george's cross flags and a white van outside...

does any form of patriotism have to extend to xenophobia / racism just because the right wing version of it does?

there is an argument (i'm not quite sure it's entirely sound) that labour / the left shouldn't abandon the union jack' to the far-right...

(none of the above implies support of starmer, i still think he's a waste of a suit)


----------



## locomotive (Sep 25, 2022)

I go for weeks at a time without thinking about Kier Starmer or the Labour Party. 

Which is damning for an opposition party.


----------



## Idaho (Sep 25, 2022)

Ms Idaho stumbled across him doing something at a local park. She heckled him and the minions ushered her to one side with the promise she could put her comments direct to the great man, which she later did. Her verdict on him was that he was surprisingly or unsurprisingly uncharismatic and unconvincing in real life. "Like that robot character on red dwarf".


----------



## belboid (Sep 25, 2022)

SysOut said:


> It started with New Labour.
> …
> One of the characteristics of New Labour _is_ nationalism, following in the footsteps of Thatcher.


Labour was nationalist long before new Labour shite.  Do you remember why the second international fell apart?


----------



## Rob Ray (Sep 25, 2022)

The big flaw in the strategy is that Rod Bishop and his ilk may be thicker than New Orleans gumbo but they're never going to be fooled by inauthentic appeals to a headbanging creed they've lived all their lives.


----------



## SysOut (Sep 25, 2022)

belboid said:


> Labour was nationalist long before new Labour shite.  Do you remember why the second international fell apart?


You're right. I was being far too kind.


----------



## Johnny Vodka (Sep 26, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Had to hand out song sheets in case people didnt know the words
> 
> View attachment 344365



TBF, who would?


----------



## _Russ_ (Sep 26, 2022)

After just listening to Rachel Reeves' interview just now I can almost believe the Labour party could win an election if they could just get rid of their hopeless leader


----------



## two sheds (Sep 26, 2022)

Johnny Vodka said:


> TBF, who would?


true, and they've changed recently


----------



## Calamity1971 (Sep 26, 2022)

_Russ_ said:


> After just listening to Rachel Reeves' interview just now I can almost believe the Labour party could win an election if they could just get rid of their hopeless leader


And Rachel reeves, and.....


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Sep 26, 2022)




----------



## Chz (Sep 26, 2022)

Is his Keirness under any obligation whatsoever to go along with what the delegates vote for? I don't expect him to support all that without a fight.

Edit: It's great that Labour's polling 45% right now, but how in fuck do the Tories still have 33% support? 1 in 3 people are sitting in the flames and thinking "This is fine".


----------



## emanymton (Sep 26, 2022)

Chz said:


> Is his Keirness under any obligation whatsoever to go along with what the delegates vote for? I don't expect him to support all that without a fight.
> 
> Edit: It's great that Labour's polling 45% right now, but how in fuck do the Tories still have 33% support? 1 in 3 people are sitting in the flames and thinking "This is fine".


It's because Labour would be bad for the economy.


----------



## gosub (Sep 26, 2022)

Chz said:


> Is his Keirness under any obligation whatsoever to go along with what the delegates vote for? I don't expect him to support all that without a fight.
> 
> Edit: It's great that Labour's polling 45% right now, but how in fuck do the Tories still have 33% support? 1 in 3 people are sitting in the flames and thinking "This is fine".


Coz Labour decided the best thing to do when all the leaves started coming off the magic money tree, was to buy a fucking train set


----------



## elbows (Sep 26, 2022)

The rail thing was reported yesterday:









						Labour does back rail nationalisation, says shadow transport minister
					

Shadow minister Tanmanjeet Dhesi clears up where the party stands on public ownership.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## SysOut (Sep 26, 2022)

gosub said:


> Coz Labour decided the best thing to do when all the leaves started coming off the magic money tree, was to buy a fucking train set


Well, they already own the land and the track.

And most other countries have an integrated railway system. Why not us?


----------



## gosub (Sep 26, 2022)

SysOut said:


> Well, they already own the land and the track.
> 
> And most other countries have an integrated railway system. Why not us?


Cos it shows a lack of fiscal awareness for a start, and a weird set of priorites...water would be my proirity


----------



## Artaxerxes (Sep 26, 2022)

British government has long shown no interest in running a state beyond the protection of property rights. We’re talking centuries.

Like they just don’t think government has a purpose in protecting or support its population. 

Brief blip post WW2 with some flirting with socialism but we’re back on track now.


----------



## Cerv (Sep 26, 2022)

gosub said:


> Cos it shows a lack of fiscal awareness for a start, and a weird set of priorites...water would be my proirity



don't think I agree about the lack of fiscal awareness. 
bearing in mind that a good few franchises are already run by DfT and the others are just being paid a management fee to run theirs without taking on any revenue risk, what's your major concern?

priorities is an interesting question.
everyone pays for water, and not everyone regularly takes trains. but those who do commute regularly by train pay a huge amount more annually than their water bill. 
the failings of water companies - too much lost to leaks, too much untreated sewage released - don't affect people directly in the way that cancelled and delayed trains do. it's a bit more removed from you & in the background.
so if you want to prioritise by what people see most impact on their day to day life, trains are more visible for a big chunk of the country.


----------



## Lorca (Sep 26, 2022)

Chz said:


> Edit: It's great that Labour's polling 45% right now, but how in fuck do the Tories still have 33% support? 1 in 3 people are sitting in the flames and thinking "This is fine".


I'm a delivery driver, I spend my days delivering unnecessary plastic crap all round the Midlands. Even now it never ceases to amaze me how much inconspicuous wealth there is in this country, beautiful period houses with sprawling gardens in quaint villages, new build estates on the edge of towns full of young, healthy looking middle class families. It's weird for me, coming from cotteridge in Birmingham (albeit i live outside Brum now.)
It sounds ridiculously obvious I know, but it reminds me that loads of people are doing just fuckin' dandy!
I always think these are the people largely propping up the tories and they always will. Why risk losing what they got after all. But you also go to these putatively wealthy town centres in the shires now (such as say, Evesham) and you can see the unmistakable decline, and it's only getting worse. At some point surely even the wealthy won't like the shitty, overloaded infrastructure, the dirty streets, the conspicuous poverty etc.
 Anyway, sorry to be Mr state the obvious , just a thought that occurred whilst sitting in my van trying to avoid working too hard!


----------



## gosub (Sep 26, 2022)

Cerv said:


> don't think I agree about the lack of fiscal awareness.
> bearing in mind that a good few franchises are already run by DfT and the others are just being paid a management fee to run theirs without taking on any revenue risk, what's your major concern?
> 
> priorities is an interesting question.
> ...


Have you been watching the news today? Or The other threads?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Sep 26, 2022)

Chz said:


> Is his Keirness under any obligation whatsoever to go along with what the delegates vote for? I don't expect him to support all that without a fight.
> 
> Edit: It's great that Labour's polling 45% right now, but how in fuck do the Tories still have 33% support? 1 in 3 people are sitting in the flames and thinking "This is fine".




It’s not enough for the government to do badly, the opposition needs to sell them a future worth going for.

So Keirs not the man for that. Especially not with the media sewn up firmly in the conservatives favour (mostly thanks to the oligarch owners) and the culture war in full swing.


----------



## gosub (Sep 26, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> It’s not enough for the government to do badly, the opposition needs to sell them a future worth going for.
> 
> So Keirs not the man for that. Especially not with the media sewn up firmly in the conservatives favour (mostly thanks to the oligarch owners) and the culture war in full swing.


Which they are not doing....the markets are close to meltdown, and even b4 the PM was saying recession.....Paying for this winter's gas has already tipped UK over 100%GDP to debt, and they are saying purely by  reversng the tax cut there is enough money to spend on train sets (I hear what the Unions are saying, though sorting it - that middle man they don't like...his employment is contributing to a fair few people's pensions) plus more money for nurses...again sympathetic.....but its about as economically illiterate as certain other political positions put forward


----------



## muscovyduck (Sep 26, 2022)

Labour want to renationalise the railways to avoid a head on collision with the RMT if they get into power. That's why it's trains and not water or whatever


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Sep 26, 2022)

are any of today's announcements / conference decisions actually binding on the party leadership for the next manifesto?

starmer has already ditched most (if not all) of the policy promises he stood for election as leader on (in order to get approval from the tory press, who will just tell the voters he's ditched all of the promises he made to party members so why should the general public trust his promises to them)


----------



## Plumdaff (Sep 26, 2022)

muscovyduck said:


> Labour want to renationalise the railways to avoid a head on collision with the RMT if they get into power. That's why it's trains and not water or whatever


It's a hell lot easier to piecemeal renationalise the railways than anything else, plus it's massively popular. 

Starmer won't do it, mind.


----------



## gosub (Sep 26, 2022)

muscovyduck said:


> Labour want to renationalise the railways to avoid a head on collision with the RMT if they get into power. That's why it's trains and not water or whatever


Fucking great.  
We had no trains here ALL weekend.
If a corporation can convince the UN that water is not a basic human right, then I rather not have corporations in control of my water , fitting water meters (and whatever malarkey that might mean)..
Coz I tell you what as much as not having trains for 2 days was a pain in the arse, not having water for 2 days? no thankyou.


Was on the Grand Union a couple of years back, stopped at the waterpoint by Bull's bridge -now bring your own tap head. 
Has been a rest point for gentlemen of the road for over a century.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Sep 26, 2022)

Renationalising isn’t going to solve things overnight sadly, it’ll take years to fix the damage even if Labour do bother to fix it.

The tracks are old, but at least managed centrally (after last time when they fell apart…) but the trains are shoddy, the staff are leaving and badly paid. 

Fuck knows what they plan to do to ticket prices but I’m guessing not much. 

Not sure why governments are happy to invest in roads as wealth creators but not rail, both are expensive, both require long term planning but it’s roads that get the nod. Transit is about moving people and moving people mean money happens, just not on the transit lines. It’s a force multiplier for towns and cities to enable them to grow.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Sep 26, 2022)

Nationalisation always serves the interests of the capitalist class over the workers anyway, always has done.


----------



## two sheds (Sep 26, 2022)

Best it's all privatized then


----------



## Artaxerxes (Sep 26, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Best it's all privatized then




Cut another tax and magically roads and rail will build themselves.


----------



## steveseagull (Sep 26, 2022)

Al Jazeera seem to have fucked up and are playing part two again.  They tweeted that part three will be on YouTube  tomorrow and on channel tomorrow evening


----------



## SysOut (Sep 26, 2022)

steveseagull said:


> Al Jazeera seem to have fucked up and are playing part two again.  They tweeted that part three will be on YouTube  tomorrow and on channel tomorrow evening


Maybe part 3 needed more editing.


----------



## steveseagull (Sep 26, 2022)

SysOut said:


> Maybe part 3 needed more editing.


There is rumour that Labour got an injunction but they can bypass it by putting it on YouTube.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Sep 26, 2022)

Cerv said:


> priorities is an interesting question.
> everyone pays for water, and not everyone regularly takes trains.



Everyone does depend on workers who travel by train. 

If you use the roads, well those are only usable because there are trains carrying lots of people who might otherwise be in private cars.


----------



## Elpenor (Sep 26, 2022)

gosub said:


> Fucking great.
> We had no trains here ALL weekend.
> If a corporation can convince the UN that water is not a basic human right, then I rather not have corporations in control of my water , fitting water meters (and whatever malarkey that might mean)..
> Coz I tell you what as much as not having trains for 2 days was a pain in the arse, not having water for 2 days? no thankyou.
> ...


BW keys have been a thing for years, since the 90s at least


----------



## gosub (Sep 26, 2022)

Elpenor said:


> BW keys have been a thing for years, since the 90s at least


No not the bw keys ...the waterpoint is on the Tesco site just as you come off the London arm about 100 yards from a bridge that's a kippable.  Used to be just a straight tap (I know there are ones which do need bwkey access that one didn't..for reasons.  Now if you ain't got a wrench or your own tap head you can't use.  That said also heard of licensed boats having difficulty accessing water on the kennet this summer


----------



## Elpenor (Sep 26, 2022)

gosub said:


> No not the bw keys ...the waterpoint is on the Tesco site just as you come off the London arm about 100 yards from a bridge that's a kippable.  Used to be just a straight tap (I know there are ones which do need bwkey access that one didn't..for reasons.  Now if you ain't got a wrench or your own tap head you can't use.  That said also heard of licensed boats having difficulty accessing water on the kennet this summer


Ah, that puts a different perspective on it.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Sep 26, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Best it's all privatized then


Being lumbered with just those two options has always been the problem.


----------



## two sheds (Sep 26, 2022)

Indeed, although presented with those two options I know which I think will benefit the great majority of people more.


----------



## Leighsw2 (Sep 27, 2022)

steveseagull said:


> There is rumour that Labour got an injunction but they can bypass it by putting it on YouTube.


Any further info on that? I've not come across that on my journey across Twitter today. Interesting if it can be circumvented via YouTube.


----------



## steveseagull (Sep 27, 2022)

Episode 3 has dropped


----------



## teuchter (Sep 27, 2022)

AmateurAgitator said:


> Being lumbered with just those two options has always been the problem.


What's the magic solution?


----------



## Karl Masks (Sep 27, 2022)

steveseagull said:


> Episode 3 has dropped



"This video is private"

Bit odd?


----------



## steveseagull (Sep 27, 2022)




----------



## ruffneck23 (Sep 27, 2022)

steveseagull said:


>



That is still unavailable even using a vpn


----------



## steveseagull (Sep 27, 2022)

OK I have set my VPN to the Netherlands and Japan and it is still showing as private


----------



## steveo87 (Sep 27, 2022)

Keir Starmer speech: Labour leader to quote Tony Blair in pitch for power
					

Sir Keir Starmer will tell Labour's conference he has brought the party back to the centre ground.



					www.bbc.co.uk
				




Any any normal time, quoting a war criminal would be a no-no. 
But here we are...


----------



## ruffneck23 (Sep 27, 2022)

steveseagull said:


> OK I have set my VPN to the Netherlands and Japan and it is still showing as private


Yeah Ive tried with romania still nothing,


----------



## steveseagull (Sep 27, 2022)

I would imagine it has been downloaded at some point whilst it was live this morning. It will pop up somewhere soon


----------



## ruffneck23 (Sep 27, 2022)

steveseagull said:


> I would imagine it has been downloaded at some point whilst it was live this morning. It will pop up somewhere soon


Ive looked in my usually very reliable sources but havent found anything yet, will let you know if I can find it..


----------



## two sheds (Sep 27, 2022)

Episode 3? Working ok for me



downloaded though and says video not available.

strange it's shown as private but plays ok for me 

I must be privileged


----------



## Cid (Sep 27, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Episode 3? Working ok for me
> 
> 
> 
> ...




No dice here... Although their twitter does say it'll be released at 12:00 GMT (13:00 here), so may just be that.


----------



## two sheds (Sep 27, 2022)

Am downloading it but can't see where it's being downloaded to

Dowloaded ok.


----------



## steveseagull (Sep 27, 2022)

Oh. This will piss a lot of the right wing wankers off. Direct result of the Al Jazeera investigations I would have thought


----------



## steveseagull (Sep 27, 2022)

In August...









						Supreme Court refuses to hear Jeremy Corbyn appeal in libel case
					

Commentator Richard Millett is suing Mr Corbyn over remarks he made during an interview on the BBC’s Andrew Marr show in 2018.




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## steveseagull (Sep 27, 2022)




----------



## two sheds (Sep 27, 2022)

There's a lot on unhandled islamophibic abuse and spying on muslim labour party members.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Sep 27, 2022)

teuchter said:


> What's the magic solution?


I don't think the solution is 'magic' but I'd say worker-run, for the the needs of the communities. Obviously.


----------



## steveseagull (Sep 27, 2022)

This would be across every front page and TV screen if they had done that to Jewish members.

There is the hierarchy of racism. Right there.


----------



## teuchter (Sep 27, 2022)

AmateurAgitator said:


> I don't think the solution is 'magic' but I'd say worker-run, for the needs of the communities and probably decentralised. Obviously.


Do you believe that this would be feasible under some version of our current political setup or is this all reliant on wholesale revolution and so on happening first?


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Sep 27, 2022)

teuchter said:


> Do you believe that this would be feasible under some version of our current political setup or is this all reliant on wholesale revolution and so on happening first?


I think people need to get off their arse and seize infrastructure and the means of production and stop wasting time with parliamentary and liberal bollocks. Then the working class really would be back. I'd also like to see certain places burnt down, maybe we could start with the Ofgem offices? Why hasn't it been done yet I wonder? What are people waiting for?

Have a nice day.


----------



## Brainaddict (Sep 27, 2022)

Is there a good article with a summary of the Labour Files revelations? I don't have the patience for watching it but am mildly curious about what it contains.


----------



## Karl Masks (Sep 27, 2022)

Cid said:


> No dice here... Although their twitter does say it'll be released at 12:00 GMT (13:00 here), so may just be that.


Notsofar.

Perhaps Sir Keir intervened? Perhaps Youtube were too busy singing GOd Save the King


----------



## teuchter (Sep 27, 2022)

AmateurAgitator said:


> I think people need to get off their arse and seize infrastructure and the means of production and stop wasting time with parliamentary and liberal bollocks. Then the working class really would be back. I'd also like to see certain places burnt down, maybe we could start with the Ofgem offices? Why hasn't it been done yet I wonder? What are people waiting for?


Ok, doesn't actually answer my question but I'll take the implied answer to be "no".

I don't know what exact flavour of revolutionary you are but I've never really understood how major public infrastructure stuff (things like railways or power generation) is supposed to work without pretty significant centralised control of some kind.


----------



## Cid (Sep 27, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> Notsofar.
> 
> Perhaps Sir Keir intervened? Perhaps Youtube were too busy singing GOd Save the King



Yeah... odd. Wonder why that one specifically. We shall see I suppose. Although only if Al Jazeera report on it, since every other media outlet seems completely silent. I would actually genuinely like some wider coverage of it, critical responses etc.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 27, 2022)

AmateurAgitator said:


> I think people need to get off their arse and seize infrastructure and the means of production and stop wasting time with parliamentary and liberal bollocks. Then the working class really would be back. I'd also like to see certain places burnt down, maybe we could start with the Ofgem offices? Why hasn't it been done yet I wonder? What are people waiting for?
> 
> Have a nice day.


Time for another royal palace to burn I think


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Sep 27, 2022)

teuchter said:


> Ok, doesn't actually answer my question but I'll take the implied answer to be "no".
> 
> I don't know what exact flavour of revolutionary you are but I've never really understood how major public infrastructure stuff (things like railways or power generation) is supposed to work without pretty significant centralised control of some kind.


Well there are plenty of examples throughout history of decentralisation and popular assemblies and workers' councils, worker-run workplaces etc and there are plenty of modern day versions of these things I'm sure. It can be done.


----------



## teqniq (Sep 27, 2022)

This seems to work:


----------



## Karl Masks (Sep 27, 2022)

Cid said:


> Yeah... odd. Wonder why that one specifically. We shall see I suppose. Although only if Al Jazeera report on it, since every other media outlet seems completely silent. I would actually genuinely like some wider coverage of it, critical responses etc.


Problem is if AJ are the only ones on this then people will just say "oh it's Al Jazeera they can't be trusted". But the documentaries seem credible and refer to evidence with credible sources. I mean, it's not as if it's being presented by George Galloway or something


----------



## mojo pixy (Sep 27, 2022)

While I was looking for that, I stumbled across this .. a series of interviews that allege racism within Labour that can only be described as endemic. Content warning: the start with Diane Abbot at a committee hearing has some fairly hefty language (that she is saying she has been subjected to)

It features some of the same people, I believe (haven't yet watched the AJ piece). Absolutely bloody awful.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 27, 2022)

How sir Starmer is going down in the Evening Standard


----------



## oryx (Sep 28, 2022)

The Liverpool dockers are not impressed. 









						Starmer will lose working class, say Liverpool dock strikers
					

Liverpool's dock workers have called on Keir Starmer to "show solidarity" with them on the picket line.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## Calamity1971 (Sep 28, 2022)

oryx said:


> The Liverpool dockers are not impressed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I remember the last Liverpool dockers strike in the 90’s. People who had fuck all gave what they could. My mates dad worked for royal mail and donated nearly all his monthly wage. People of liverpool won't be hoodwinked by Sir scammer.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Sep 28, 2022)




----------



## The39thStep (Sep 29, 2022)




----------



## Jeff Robinson (Sep 29, 2022)

Exceeded the fabled 20% lead


----------



## brogdale (Sep 29, 2022)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Exceeded the fabled 20% lead



She has achieved that.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Sep 29, 2022)

brogdale said:


> She has achieved that.



How low can they go?


----------



## brogdale (Sep 29, 2022)

Jeff Robinson said:


> How low can they go?


I think they've shown us that.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Sep 29, 2022)




----------



## Jeff Robinson (Sep 29, 2022)

brogdale said:


> I think they've shown us that.



I suspect its only the 0000000001% of the country who are hardcore ideological neoliberals + rightwing OAPs in the late stages of dementia who still want to vote for the barbaric Truss clique


----------



## teqniq (Sep 29, 2022)

I'll see your 49% and....


----------



## ruffneck23 (Sep 29, 2022)




----------



## steveseagull (Oct 1, 2022)

A surprise forth episode of the expose has just dropped which focusses on Croydon Labour and it is insane...


----------



## brogdale (Oct 1, 2022)

steveseagull said:


> A surprise forth episode of the expose has just dropped which focusses on Croydon Labour and it is insane...



As shocking as it is unsurprising.


----------



## Karl Masks (Oct 1, 2022)

steveseagull said:


> A surprise forth episode of the expose has just dropped which focusses on Croydon Labour and it is insane...



Ooh! Labour Corruption DLC! This one's good too!

I wonder how much money Keith will unquestioninly hand over to the victim of hacking on the part of his out of control executive?

What a shitshow.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 1, 2022)

Can someone who watched kindly summarise?


----------



## steveseagull (Oct 1, 2022)

TopCat said:


> Can someone who watched kindly summarise?


Focusses on Inside Croydon's email being hacked and all the councillors who interacted with them having their emails sent to the Labour Party (or were hacked by the Labour Party in the first place). Several left leaning councillors were then suspended on the basis of illegally obtained data and one like long activist being smeared with anitsemitism accusations. 

There needs to be an criminal investigation. It is worth watching, this is a short one (20 mins)


----------



## TopCat (Oct 1, 2022)

This is a good read from someone who has had their nose right in there for decades. 








						#TheLabourFiles: MP Reed, Evans and the Croydon connection
					

By STEVEN DOWNES, Editor, Inside Croydon More than six months in the making, Al Jazeera’s investigations unit last night released the fourth part of their documentary series The Labour Files,…




					insidecroydon.com


----------



## ska invita (Oct 1, 2022)




----------



## Karl Masks (Oct 1, 2022)

Oh dear


----------



## a_chap (Oct 1, 2022)

Neither Supply nor Generation then.

And Labour want my vote? What a joke.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Oct 1, 2022)

a_chap said:


> Neither Supply nor Generation then.



generation of hot air...


----------



## ska invita (Oct 1, 2022)

Smoke and mirrors. It's an open door for this kind of thing, even Germany are renationalising, it says so much that they're putting up fake policies like this.


----------



## Chilli.s (Oct 2, 2022)

So just another layer of skimming profit without adding any value


----------



## Spandex (Oct 2, 2022)

Fucking useless Starmer.

He was never going to nationalise energy companies, but the originally announced policy of setting up a government owned energy company was, on his terms, a solid Blairite plan, the sort of thing Brown would come up with. Working within the capitalist system to deliver a slightly better deal for people while not spooking the markets and leaving it wide open to be easily reversed if a future government decided to privatise the thing. By having a government owned energy company it could've undercut other energy companies by not being required to maximise profits, any profits would've gone to the treasury, providing stability as it'd be underwritten by the state and likely to grow to dominate the energy market. Not my idea of a solution to the energy crisis, but as good as we could hope for from the current version of Labour.

But no. Even that's too radical for Starmer, the pointless blank space.


----------



## magneze (Oct 2, 2022)

Ffs


----------



## two sheds (Oct 2, 2022)

Is he just trolling the left now? 

"I'm going to do something reeeeeally radical and worthwhile" "Hahahahah no I fooled you _again_ ".


----------



## Karl Masks (Oct 2, 2022)

It's so radical that Jess St Phillips might leave and then rejoin the Labour party, unlike 200,000 other people


----------



## Dystopiary (Oct 2, 2022)

Does anyone know about this Sally Eason? I hadn't heard of her before but she's apparently involved with the doco in some way.



Spoiler: screenshots from twitter













Bob from Brockley
Marlon Solomon


----------



## tim (Oct 2, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> I just finished watching it.
> 
> I found it oddly cathartic, as, I suspect, did some of those participating (except perhaps that poor guy who was reduced to tears by it all).


The teary guy was the barrister struck of for lying.


----------



## tim (Oct 2, 2022)

JimW said:


> And even fewer would know the words to that.


Oh Christmas tree, oh Christmas tree...


----------



## Karl Masks (Oct 2, 2022)

Dystopiary said:


> Does anyone know about this Sally Eason? I hadn't heard of her before but she's apparently involved with the doco in some way.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And here it comes. 

How the fuck is anyone supposed to know the truth in all this


----------



## Karl Masks (Oct 2, 2022)

tim said:


> The teary guy was the barrister struck of for lying.


I don't remember that


----------



## tim (Oct 2, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> I don't remember that


Funnily enough that was a fact that Al Jazeera didn't highlight.


----------



## Karl Masks (Oct 2, 2022)

tim said:


> Funnily enough that was a fact that Al Jazeera didn't highlight.


Do you have a better source?

Following all this is exhausting


----------



## Dystopiary (Oct 2, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> And here it comes.
> 
> How the fuck is anyone supposed to know the truth in all this


Here what comes? 
Bob from Brockley (amongst others) seems to have an awful lot of receipts.


----------



## Karl Masks (Oct 2, 2022)

Dystopiary said:


> Here what comes?
> Bob from Brockley (amongst others) seems to have an awful lot of receipts.


I know, and I'm referring to the inevitable (given Al Jazeera's reputation) backlash against this documentary.

If that backlash is accurate then I want to know whether i've just wasted four hours watching this shit. I mean, if Chris Williamson had turned up in one of those vidoes i'd have switched it off immediately. On the other hand, and while I'm no fan of the guy, I wouldn't have lumped Peter Oborne in with the likes of Chris. The rest of those involved I don't recognise, bar a brief mention of Jackie Walker, and I'm not convinced her case is genuine antisemitism (it could be). This whole thing is just an ongoing shit show which is why I said I found it exhausting. So here it comes = the dismal readjusting of expectations. The party does seem utterly dysfuynctional and determined to offer nothing of substance, despite the presence of bad faith or ignorant actors from the populist left. 

I had the same reaction when I came across the "Not the Andrew Marr" Youtube channel which seemed at first blush interesting and engaging. Ordinary labour members and ex members talking stuff from a left perspective. Then I watched a debate between an Alliance for Workers LIbrty (some guy called Pete iirc) and Chris Williamson who spent the entire time making egregiously pro Putin talking points. I switched off in disgust.


----------



## Dystopiary (Oct 2, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> I know, and I'm referring to the inevitable (given Al Jazeera's reputation) backlash against this documentary.
> 
> If that backlash is accurate then I want to know whether i've just wasted four hours watching this shit. I mean, if Chris Williamson had turned up in one of those vidoes i'd have switched it off immediately. On the other hand, and while I'm no fan of the guy, I wouldn't have lumped Peter Oborne in with the likes of Chris. The rest of those involved I don't recognise, bar a brief mention of Jackie Walker, and I'm not convinced her case is genuine antisemitism (it could be). This whole thing is just an ongoing shit show which is why I said I found it exhausting. So here it comes = the dismal readjusting of expectations. The party does seem utterly dysfuynctional and determined to offer nothing of substance, despite the presence of bad faith or ignorant actors from the populist left.
> 
> I had the same reaction when I came across the "Not the Andrew Marr" Youtube channel which seemed at first blush interesting and engaging. Ordinary labour members and ex members talking stuff from a left perspective. Then I watched a debate between an Alliance for Workers LIbrty (some guy called Pete iirc) and Chris Williamson who spent the entire time making egregiously pro Putin talking points. I switched off in disgust.


Yeah, I get you.  I haven't made my mind up whether to watch it yet.


----------



## teqniq (Oct 4, 2022)

Not so much about Starmer but more about the whole ethos of the Labour party as it stands now, towards the end it even briefly mentions the Labour files, something which has largely been ignored by a lot of other major media outlets:









						As Labour marches forward, is racism in the party being swept under the carpet? | Nesrine Malik
					

A strange, unsettling amnesty over allegations of prejudice seems to have been granted Keir Starmer’s resurgent party, says Guardian columnist Nesrine Malik




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Karl Masks (Oct 4, 2022)

Dystopiary said:


> Yeah, I get you.  I haven't made my mind up whether to watch it yet.


probably better off reading the Forde Report. At least Keith paid for it


----------



## Beermoth (Oct 5, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Is he just trolling the left now?
> 
> "I'm going to do something reeeeeally radical and worthwhile" "Hahahahah no I fooled you _again_ ".


Now? It's all he's been doing for the last two years...


----------



## ska invita (Oct 5, 2022)




----------



## two sheds (Oct 5, 2022)

She should have suggested Gazza. "Oh yes Gazza would be nailed on along with Saka in the forward line".


----------



## Elpenor (Oct 5, 2022)

If I was a politician I’d just say I don’t really follow football as it’s not my favourite sport, surely that would get more respect than pretending to know about it like most party leaders do


----------



## strung out (Oct 5, 2022)

He's a big football fan and has been for years. 

Suspect he was a bit bamboozled by the phrasing of the question though as Saka doesn't really play 'up front' in the traditional sense, usually playing out wide on the wing, albeit alongside an out and out striker like Kane. 

Tried to over think it I reckon.


----------



## Raheem (Oct 5, 2022)

strung out said:


> He's a big football fan and has been for years.
> 
> Suspect he was a bit bamboozled by the phrasing of the question though as Saka doesn't really play 'up front' in the traditional sense, usually playing out wide on the wing, albeit alongside an out and out striker like Kane.
> 
> Tried to over think it I reckon.


Nah. He pretends to be a big football fan and has done for years.

But, yes, "who would you play him with" is also not a question written by a football fan.


----------



## killer b (Oct 11, 2022)

I see Sam Tarry has been deselected, another great lesson in 'this is how you do it' for the Labour left, who can now presumably expect to see a load more of the campaign group out on their ear.


----------



## Flavour (Oct 11, 2022)

Nah Starmer is actually a football fan, before he was labour leader i once saw him in a pub near the Emirates on matchday


----------



## belboid (Oct 11, 2022)

killer b said:


> I see Sam Tarry has been deselected, another great lesson in 'this is how you do it' for the Labour left, who can now presumably expect to see a load more of the campaign group out on their ear.


Don’t think you can really draw such a conclusion from this case.  His selection for 2019 _was_ a bit dodgy.  The selected candidate would have walked the nomination three years ago if he hadn’t been barred. 

Still shit, but Tarry shouldn’t find it hard to find another seat.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 11, 2022)

Flavour said:


> Nah Starmer is actually a football fan, before he was labour leader i once saw him in a pub near the Emirates on matchday



aye an arsenal fan


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Oct 11, 2022)

The 'not a real football fan' thing is about forty years out of date isn't it. As if there'd be anything unusual about a QC being an Arsenal fan these days.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Oct 11, 2022)

I am the only one who's never heard the word 'crestfallen' before?


----------



## Cid (Oct 11, 2022)

Jeff Robinson said:


> I am the only one who's never heard the word 'crestfallen' before?




Er... probably?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 11, 2022)

Jeff Robinson said:


> I am the only one who's never heard the word 'crestfallen' before?



yes


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 11, 2022)

belboid said:


> Don’t think you can really draw such a conclusion from this case.  His selection for 2019 _was_ a bit dodgy.  The selected candidate would have walked the nomination three years ago if he hadn’t been barred.
> 
> Still shit, but Tarry shouldn’t find it hard to find another seat.


he'll be boring people with his 'i could have been a contender' pastiche for some years to come from his stool at the corner of the bar


----------



## MickiQ (Oct 11, 2022)

Jeff Robinson said:


> I am the only one who's never heard the word 'crestfallen' before?



I've heard of the word 'crestfallen' before but I haven't heard of Sam Tarry until now. Googling this tale he seems to be somewhat of a sore loser though.


----------



## Cerv (Oct 11, 2022)

A bit Trumpian, implying there’s been vite rigging just cos he lost


----------



## Calamity1971 (Oct 14, 2022)

Not really heard of this labour bloke, but twitter are over the moon. I've not seen any of the labour files


----------



## steveseagull (Oct 15, 2022)

He is one of David Evans' Luke Akehurst's enforcers. Has a history of harassing women and getting away with it as certain MPs are fine with it and will pull strings in the disciplinary process to get him off the hook as he does their dirty work for them.


----------



## steveseagull (Oct 15, 2022)




----------



## steveseagull (Oct 15, 2022)




----------



## JimW (Oct 15, 2022)

Jeff Robinson said:


> I am the only one who's never heard the word 'crestfallen' before?



That feeling of irritation when you find someone's knocked your toothpaste off the shelf.


----------



## Serge Forward (Oct 15, 2022)

Or pissed on your chips


----------



## RedRedRose (Oct 16, 2022)

Watched all four of the Al-Jazeera documentaries. Definitely gives the impression a hatchet job was done on JC, there is a secret clique running Labour and they're engaging in racist activity against rank and file members. Starmer doesn't come across well, as you can imagine.

Fairly good summary by Novara on the JC bits for those not wanting to watch the whole thing.


----------



## Elpenor (Oct 16, 2022)

Quite like the look of these campaign posters









						‘Send off the clowns’: Labour ads tear into Tories amid Truss crisis
					

Scathing posters ridicule Conservatives for damaging Britain’s reputation, lifting mortgages and crashing the economy




					www.theguardian.com
				




They recall some of the stuff Saatchi did for the Tories in the thatcher era which was both memorable and electorally effective


----------



## ska invita (Oct 16, 2022)

Elpenor said:


> Quite like the look of these campaign posters
> 
> 
> 
> ...


the daily star should sue


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 16, 2022)

Elpenor said:


> Quite like the look of these campaign posters
> 
> 
> 
> ...



We've got people on here that could do a better photoshop than that.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Oct 16, 2022)

local person (who happens to be black and leftish) blocked by the party machine from being a candidate for selection as PPC in camberwell and peckham.

allegedly (there may be more than anyone is letting on) for 'liking' something caroline lucas posted on tweeter.









						Uproar as Labour block activist from standing for parliament
					

Diane Abbott leads protests over decision to bar Maurice Mcleod from the Labour contest to represent Camberwell and Peckham




					www.voice-online.co.uk
				




but being a former tory MP, or supporting racists, is fine


----------



## teqniq (Oct 17, 2022)

And another:


----------



## Cerv (Oct 17, 2022)

christ what a font choice. anyone else find that unreadable?

like she took on board the valid complaint that posting announcements as images is discriminatory against anyone has to use a screen reader, but has gone in the wrong direction to level that out.


----------



## teqniq (Oct 17, 2022)

Cerv said:


> christ what a font choice. anyone else find that unreadable?
> 
> like she took on board the valid complaint that posting announcements as images is discriminatory against anyone has to use a screen reader, but has gone in the wrong direction to level that out.


In the followup tweet it may be that she's noticed as she tweeted this link. I actually read this rather then the red thing:









						Emma Dent Coad - Statement
					

I am devastated that the Labour Party has blocked me from standing to once again represent my community in Parliament, the community I have spent the last 20 years of my life fighting for. At the same time, I am angry that local members and our local community in Kensington have been denied th...




					docs.google.com


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 17, 2022)

Cerv said:


> christ what a font choice. anyone else find that unreadable?


Yes. Literally.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Oct 17, 2022)

Got to be honest, Penny Mordaunt caught a body here:


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Oct 17, 2022)

Cerv said:


> christ what a font choice. anyone else find that unreadable?
> 
> like she took on board the valid complaint that posting announcements as images is discriminatory against anyone has to use a screen reader, but has gone in the wrong direction to level that out.











						Emma Dent Coad - Statement
					

I am devastated that the Labour Party has blocked me from standing to once again represent my community in Parliament, the community I have spent the last 20 years of my life fighting for. At the same time, I am angry that local members and our local community in Kensington have been denied th...




					docs.google.com


----------



## teqniq (Oct 17, 2022)

Jeff Robinson Yup she did. Keith's lucky she's not in charge tbh.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 17, 2022)

teqniq said:


> And another:



She needs an editor


----------



## teqniq (Oct 17, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> She needs an editor


Yeah the red is pretty terrible, virtually unreadable as has been observed which is why I chose to read the google docs version.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Oct 17, 2022)

teqniq said:


> And another:





has not aged well...


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 17, 2022)

teqniq said:


> Yeah the red is pretty terrible, virtually unreadable as has been observed which is why I chose to read the google docs version.


It's her shitty statement. It'd look worse on a white background.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 17, 2022)

Puddy_Tat said:


> View attachment 347622
> 
> has not aged well...


Labour Party members do select their candidates. It's just not each constituency selecting their candidate. Did you expect democracy in the Labour Party?


----------



## Cerv (Oct 17, 2022)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Emma Dent Coad - Statement
> 
> 
> I am devastated that the Labour Party has blocked me from standing to once again represent my community in Parliament, the community I have spent the last 20 years of my life fighting for. At the same time, I am angry that local members and our local community in Kensington have been denied th...
> ...


thanks

dances around the purported reason for her missing the short list. 
does anyone know what  Labour officials have exploited this outspokenness to unjustly prevent me from standing for the seat" actually refers to?


----------



## belboid (Oct 17, 2022)

Cerv said:


> thanks
> 
> dances around the purported reason for her missing the short list.
> does anyone know what  Labour officials have exploited this outspokenness to unjustly prevent me from standing for the seat" actually refers to?


She was rude about some members of the royal family


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Oct 17, 2022)

belboid said:


> She was rude about some members of the royal family


Is there anyone in the country who hasn't been?


----------



## locomotive (Oct 17, 2022)

Is our Kier going to believe the Labour polls lead is down to his brilliance and declare 'I was right all along'?


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Oct 17, 2022)

locomotive said:


> Is our Kier going to believe the Labour polls lead is down to his brilliance and declare 'I wwas right all along'?



yes, and then take it as a sign that he's doing the correct thing and move the party more right wing.

(a bad poll of course would be taken as a sign that he has not moved the party right wing enough)


----------



## moochedit (Oct 17, 2022)

ska invita said:


> View attachment 345383


"Management of the investments" ?  What does that even mean?


----------



## halfinchbrush (Oct 18, 2022)

Flavour said:


> Nah Starmer is actually a football fan, before he was labour leader i once saw him in a pub near the Emirates on matchday


----------



## teqniq (Oct 23, 2022)

nothing to see here....


----------



## Karl Masks (Oct 23, 2022)

Keith's just like us!

Not me, I fucking can't stand football

Or Starmer


----------



## RedRedRose (Oct 24, 2022)

teqniq said:


> nothing to see here....



Is it because they want to avoid legal action by the Labour Party?


----------



## gosub (Oct 24, 2022)

RedRedRose said:


> Is it because they want to avoid legal action by the Labour Party?


If it's super injucted won't need Labour party would be contempt of court


----------



## WhyLikeThis (Oct 24, 2022)

And this is the alternative to the tories


----------



## ska invita (Oct 24, 2022)

WhyLikeThis said:


> And this is the alternative to the tories



its nice to hear him speaking with genuine passion and from the heart for once


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 24, 2022)

SpookyFrank said:


> We've got people on here that could do a better photoshop than that.


There are people who don't "do" photoshop, who could do a better photoshop than that.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 24, 2022)

Puddy_Tat said:


> local person (who happens to be black and leftish) blocked by the party machine from being a candidate for selection as PPC in camberwell and peckham.
> 
> allegedly (there may be more than anyone is letting on) for 'liking' something caroline lucas posted on tweeter.
> 
> ...


I've met Maurice a couple of times - local housing activism stuff - & he's a sound bloke who works very hard for his community. I'm not surprised he didn't get the nomination though, because his CLP has a big centrist element, & Maurice is too working class, too socialist, & too black for them.


----------



## Bingoman (Oct 24, 2022)

Rishi Sunak now the PM as Morduant had just dropped out


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 24, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> She needs an editor


A sub-ed.
She should have had someone at least proof-read it. It wanders more than an Alpine road.


----------



## ruffneck23 (Oct 24, 2022)

and here are his views on Brexit


----------



## RedRedRose (Oct 24, 2022)

He went to Belfast and Dublin...to speak to businesses


----------



## Karl Masks (Oct 24, 2022)

Keir vs Rishi

Will the nation stay awake long enough to decide with of these snooze titans should rule....yawn


----------



## moochedit (Oct 24, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> Keir vs Rishi
> 
> Will the nation stay awake long enough to decide with of these snooze titans should rule....yawn


Can't wait for the debates


----------



## Elpenor (Oct 24, 2022)

Labour plan to court “Harrow man and woman” at the next election according to an article in the Times today, quoting Mandelson. Sorry not got a paywall busted link but relevant bit quoted 









						Labour puts learning top of the agenda as it prepares for power
					

Last Wednesday a small group of shadow cabinet ministers gathered in the leader of the opposition’s offices in the House of Commons for a “masterclass” in how t




					www.thetimes.co.uk
				






> “Harrow man and woman, neither metropolitan or county - aspirant, made-good mainstream voters who lost faith in Labour during the last ten years and will cast their vote for a party that puts country first and won’t penalise them for doing so through higher taxation. It boils down to trust and casting a vote for Starmer and team rather than woke activists or militant trade unions who judge Harrow man and woman as too rich, not liberal enough or ideologically unsound”



So more austerity with a side order of flags?


----------



## belboid (Oct 24, 2022)

It’s Mandelson’s proposal, rather than a Labour plan yet.  Tho it will undoubtedly be something like that


----------



## agricola (Oct 24, 2022)

Elpenor said:


> Labour plan to court “Harrow man and woman” at the next election according to an article in the Times today, quoting Mandelson. Sorry not got a paywall busted link but relevant bit quoted
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Honestly its a little known fact that the main focus of the RMT strike action this year is on the massive over-representation of stations (underground, suburban and mainline) within Harrow

Bidston gets one station and these have a North, South, West, "and Wealdstone" *and* "on the hill" stations?  They should be first up against the wall when the revolution happens.


----------



## Raheem (Oct 24, 2022)

Tbf he probably means Harrow man as in "man who went to Harrow".


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Oct 24, 2022)

agricola said:


> Bidston gets one station and these have a North, South, West, "and Wealdstone" *and* "on the hill" stations? They should be first up against the wall when the revolution happens.



acton has more stations than harrow



Elpenor said:


> Labour plan to court “Harrow man and woman” at the next election according to an article in the Times today, quoting Mandelson.



why doesn't he just fuck off and join the tories?

(actually, i'd settle for the 'just fuck off' bit)


----------



## SysOut (Oct 25, 2022)

Elpenor said:


> Labour plan to court “Harrow man and woman” at the next election according to an article in the Times today, quoting Mandelson. Sorry not got a paywall busted link but relevant bit quoted
> 
> 
> 
> ...





			Welcome to nginx!


----------



## Leighsw2 (Oct 25, 2022)

ViolentPanda said:


> I've met Maurice a couple of times - local housing activism stuff - & he's a sound bloke who works very hard for his community. I'm not surprised he didn't get the nomination though, because his CLP has a big centrist element, & Maurice is too working class, too socialist, & too black for them.


He didn't get the nomination because he wasn't allowed to stand in the first place!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 25, 2022)

Leighsw2 said:


> He didn't get the nomination because he wasn't allowed to stand in the first place!


He wasn't even allowed on the long-list? Fuck me, that's just plain wrong!


----------



## Leighsw2 (Oct 25, 2022)

Elpenor said:


> Labour plan to court “Harrow man and woman” at the next election according to an article in the Times today, quoting Mandelson. Sorry not got a paywall busted link but relevant bit quoted
> 
> 
> 
> ...


God, I can't wait for the massive wave of strikes that's going to blow this shit away for ever within six months of new New Labour coming into office!


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Oct 25, 2022)

ViolentPanda said:


> He wasn't even allowed on the long-list? Fuck me, that's just plain wrong!



another one, milton keynes - she apparently 'liked' a tweet nicola sturgeon made about testing negative for covid (although again it's possible there may be more to it than that)









						Labour block councillor from MP race after 'liking' Nicola Sturgeon tweet
					

A LABOUR councillor has said her party blocked her from standing to become an MP in part because she had “liked” a tweet from First…




					www.thenational.scot


----------



## belboid (Oct 25, 2022)

Elsewhere, Paul M has made the long list, as has Eddie I, a young local refugee campaigner and the two councillors who are are favourites (by far) to win.


----------



## oryx (Oct 25, 2022)

Mandelson:

_It boils down to trust and casting a vote for Starmer and team rather than woke activists or *militant trade unions* who judge Harrow man and woman as too rich, not liberal enough or ideologically unsound.”_

Hang on, wasn't the Labour Party founded by these now despicable _militants_? 

Good grief.


----------



## belboid (Oct 25, 2022)

It’s a weird choice, as most of Harrow town is already represented by Labour councillors.


----------



## Elpenor (Oct 25, 2022)

belboid said:


> It’s a weird choice, as most of Harrow town is already represented by Labour councillors.


Yeah it’s not like Labour struggle to win votes in London; and didn’t lose a critical block of seats in the post industrial north in 2019

I’m now wondering if this was a rather desperate attempt by Mandelson to appear relevant and throw some digs at unions and drop the woke bomb that boomers seem to favour when they have no other response


----------



## TopCat (Oct 25, 2022)

locomotive said:


> Is our Kier going to believe the Labour polls lead is down to his brilliance and declare 'I was right all along'?


They will assert this.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Oct 25, 2022)

'Woke activists and militant trade unions' was exactly the shit attack line Liz Truss was using in PMQs last week as a last desperate attempt to hold things together while everything fell down around her ears. Pretty much word for word. It's like they're still running scared of the weakest PM ever even after she's been booted out.


----------



## muscovyduck (Oct 25, 2022)

Quiet bat people


----------



## GarveyLives (Oct 27, 2022)

And now:

Labour tells MP Nadia Whittome to delete Rishi Sunak tweet


----------



## teqniq (Oct 27, 2022)

This is pretty damning:









						‘Labour is taking the black vote for granted’
					

Keir Starmer’s party watered-down efforts to tackle anti-black racism, according to a whistleblower who says she was sacked for speaking out




					www.voice-online.co.uk


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 28, 2022)

GarveyLives said:


> And now:
> 
> Labour tells MP Nadia Whittome to delete Rishi Sunak tweet


Yes, I’m going to post a Tweet. I’m post this because it has an interview with Starmer, and it confirms that he’s a fucking idiot.


----------



## two sheds (Oct 28, 2022)

Do answers starting with "I want to be very clear about this ..." always end up being very clear about something that wasn't asked?


----------



## gentlegreen (Oct 28, 2022)

The passive voice tense should be banned.


----------



## maomao (Oct 28, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> The passive voice tense should be banned.


It's not a tense.


----------



## gentlegreen (Oct 28, 2022)

maomao said:


> It's not a tense.


well whatever it is, it stinks


----------



## maomao (Oct 28, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> well whatever it is, it stinks


Where did he use it?


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 28, 2022)

maomao said:


> Where did he use it?


It was used.


----------



## GarveyLives (Oct 28, 2022)

GarveyLives said:


> And now:
> 
> Labour tells MP Nadia Whittome to delete Rishi Sunak tweet





> _"A Corbynista candidate for the Camberwell and Peckham parliamentary seat says he’s been removed from the process because of his “life-long socialism” *and anti-racism campaigning* ..."_









(Source:  @Keir_Starmer)​
Maurice Mcleod’s bid to be Labour MP candidate for Camberwell and Peckham halted ‘by party’s right’


----------



## PR1Berske (Oct 28, 2022)




----------



## steveseagull (Oct 30, 2022)

Keith has tanked Labour's polling


----------



## Karl Masks (Oct 30, 2022)

Could that be a honeymoon bounce for Sunak? Britain's top covid chef


----------



## teqniq (Oct 30, 2022)

People are getting tired of the ongoing purge of anyone vaguely on the left and the shameless fixing that goes with it.


----------



## steveseagull (Oct 30, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> Could that be a honeymoon bounce for Sunak? Britain's top covid chef


I think it is a case of Tories who were not going to vote Tory under Truss and stay at home. Not sure the poll leads were down to anyone finding the brycreamed wonder an attractive option.


----------



## Karl Masks (Oct 30, 2022)

Starmer really is a clown if this is true Voters choose Sunak’s Tories over Labour to repair economy, new poll reveals


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Oct 30, 2022)

steveseagull said:


> I think it is a case of Tories who were not going to vote Tory under Truss and stay at home. Not sure the poll leads were down to anyone finding the brycreamed wonder an attractive option.



yes - opinion polls always need to be treated with a bit of caution

when the tories are unpopular, you get people who don't want to admit they will still vote for the twunts (see polls for the 1992 election for example)

and when someone who normally votes for one party is pissed off with them, they are more likely to say they won't at an opinion poll (and to a lesser extent likely to not vote, or do a protest vote at local or - in the past euro - elections) than to actually vote for 'the other lot' come a 'real' election


----------



## Wilf (Oct 30, 2022)

Labour's leads are pretty much in free fall:





						Opinion polling for the next United Kingdom general election - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




Suppose the interesting bit is where they end up, whether it's lower than the 10-15% leads they had under johnson. That the voters think the leader of a party who has just fucked the economy could be a better alternative than sensible kieth speaks volumes (about kieth).


----------



## kabbes (Oct 30, 2022)

Sunak managed to get himself a reputation as Mr Sensible largely because he was the only Tory candidate  not batshit crazy enough to claim he could lower taxes when the economy is in free fall. There are plenty of dyed-in-the-wool middle-shire spreadsheet-worker Tory supporters that totally turned on the Truss government and would genuinely have given boring Kieth a chance. Now, they’ve breathed a sigh of relief and turned back to Sunak, thinking the grown-ups are back in charge.

What happens next is therefore critical. If Sunak carries on the culture war obsessions, spooks capital and turns to the right, the Truss slide will probably resume. If, however, he turns into John Major then he has a chance of retaining his core support against a completely uninspiring opponent.


----------



## maomao (Oct 30, 2022)

If Sunak wants to be John Major he'll need to have an affair with a junior minister.


----------



## agricola (Oct 30, 2022)

Wilf said:


> Labour's leads are pretty much in free fall:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I suppose it depends on what Sunak actually delivers - if its more zany and bent incompetence of the May / Johnson / Truss type then the big lead will persist.

If he actually looks like he is making an effort to deal with things fairly, doesn't needlessly wind up the unions nor seek to divide the populace and it appears to work then I could even see them getting a better result vs Kieth in 2024 than they did in 2019 vs Corbs.   What would Labour's platform be if dull managerial realism is already taken?

People did actually like Corbs, after all.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Oct 30, 2022)

maomao said:


> If Sunak wants to be John Major he'll need to have an affair with a junior minister.



and start wearing aertex y-fronts?


----------



## gosub (Oct 30, 2022)

kabbes said:


> Sunak managed to get himself a reputation as Mr Sensible largely because he was the only Tory candidate  not batshit crazy enough to claim he could lower taxes when the economy is in free fall. There are plenty of dyed-in-the-wool middle-shire spreadsheet-worker Tory supporters that totally turned on the Truss government and would genuinely have given boring Kieth a chance. Now, they’ve breathed a sigh of relief and turned back to Sunak, thinking the grown-ups are back in charge.
> 
> What happens next is therefore critical. If Sunak carries on the culture war obsessions, spooks capital and turns to the right, the Truss slide will probably resume. If, however, he turns into John Major then he has a chance of retaining his core support against a completely uninspiring opponent.


Rug pull 
And not a lot Sunak can do about it, but at least he attempts to  understand what he is talking about which may come in handy in a PM


----------



## redsquirrel (Oct 30, 2022)

The other factor here is the play between the "Red Wall" and Home Counties seats. I think Sunak is going to stabilise the Tory vote in the latter which was damaged by Johnson and Truss. I'm more skeptical that he will appeal to voters in Hartlepool or Ashfield, in the same way that Johnson did.


----------



## Karl Masks (Oct 30, 2022)

God this is depressing. Even if the alternative is Starmerism, I'll take that over _yet another_ tory win


----------



## SysOut (Oct 30, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> Even if the alternative is Starmerism


TINA

The fact no new left party has been formed speaks volumes about Labour members - including Corbyn.
And the power of the media.

Those two factors are far more depressing than the existence of the Tories.
If there were a decent leftist party, the present batch of tories would provide a huge opportunity for recruitment and activism.

I see Starmers role as something quite sinister. Whereas the charlatan Johnson dreamed of playing the charlatan Churchill in a war scenario, it seems that Starmer is one "chosen" to be a war leader. I imagine he is Washingtons choice for furthering their foreign policy.

Of course, I'm just fantasising...


----------



## PR1Berske (Oct 30, 2022)

New left parties have been formed - Socialist Alliance, People Before Profit,  TUSC, Respect, Workers Party. It's the voting system which stymies them (and, of course, whether the prospect of standing in elections is a constructive idea.)


----------



## Karl Masks (Oct 30, 2022)

PR1Berske said:


> New left parties have been formed - Socialist Alliance, People Before Profit,  TUSC, Respect, Workers Party. It's the voting system which stymies them (and, of course, whether the prospect of standing in elections is a constructive idea.)


There must be a way to get something built without risking splitting the vote


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Oct 30, 2022)

PR1Berske said:


> New left parties have been formed - Socialist Alliance, People Before Profit, TUSC, Respect, Workers Party. It's the voting system which stymies them (and, of course, whether the prospect of standing in elections is a constructive idea.)



and northern independence party and breakthrough party.

and (if you can call it 'left' that is) whatever george galloway's latest thing is


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 30, 2022)

PR1Berske said:


> New left parties have been formed - Socialist Alliance, People Before Profit,  TUSC, Respect, Workers Party. It's the voting system which stymies them (and, of course, whether the prospect of standing in elections is a constructive idea.)


Socialist alliance fucked over by the swp, the ruc a very strange group, tried to go for a Muslim vote which perhaps never existed


----------



## Elpenor (Oct 31, 2022)

On Sunak and the economy, perhaps he’s regarded by some as having saved their bacon during covid through furlough. Also as a former chancellor you’d expect him to be rated strongly on this, rightly or wrongly.


----------



## WhyLikeThis (Nov 4, 2022)

Shameless cunt


----------



## PursuedByBears (Nov 4, 2022)

WhyLikeThis said:


> Shameless cunt
> View attachment 350259


Politician


----------



## GarveyLives (Nov 4, 2022)

GarveyLives said:


> (Source: @Keir_Starmer)​Maurice Mcleod’s bid to be Labour MP candidate for Camberwell and Peckham halted ‘by party’s right’



And now:

Labour probe after councillor jokes he has ‘worst tan for Black man’ at Black History Month event

Labour crisis intensifies as ‘racist’ candidate picked


----------



## stethoscope (Nov 4, 2022)

Gillick competency doesnt seem to apply to trans teens implies Starmer...


----------



## wow (Nov 4, 2022)

stethoscope said:


> Gillick competency doesnt seem to apply to trans teens implies Starmer...



What’s the problem with Starmer’s reply?


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Nov 4, 2022)




----------



## stethoscope (Nov 5, 2022)

Looking at the posting history of 'wow', they don't appear to be worth wasting any time when I've other things to do.


----------



## ska invita (Nov 5, 2022)

AmateurAgitator said:


> View attachment 350265


Fun and games is it?


----------



## two sheds (Nov 5, 2022)

Yes clearly finds trans rights entertaining. The mask slips somewhat.

Does Starmer want to apply that to contraception, too, incidentally?


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Nov 5, 2022)

Be scared


----------



## iona (Nov 5, 2022)

stethoscope said:


> Gillick competency doesnt seem to apply to trans teens implies Starmer...



Don't want to 'like' that for obvious reasons but thanks for posting it. I can never face wading through all the shit to keep up with this stuff, so grateful to you and other posters who do.


----------



## PR1Berske (Nov 6, 2022)




----------



## two sheds (Nov 6, 2022)

Nice dog-whistle phrasing, rather than "we should be training up more people for the NHS"


----------



## muscovyduck (Nov 6, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Nice dog-whistle phrasing, rather than "we should be training up more people for the NHS"


I was literally just thinking along these lines but didn't really form a coherent enough thought to post. There's so many other ways of framing the issue that are more true to the reality of the situation. "Healthcare training needs to be more accessible" "The NHS is struggling to recruit workers" or whatever. Great example of scapegoating that headline is


----------



## PR1Berske (Nov 6, 2022)




----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 6, 2022)

PR1Berske said:


>



Utterly sickening.  Utterly, utterly sickening.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 6, 2022)

PR1Berske said:


>



Typical shammer


----------



## Rob Ray (Nov 6, 2022)

Near-parity of unemployment to jobs available amidst a cost of living crisis and Keir's best response to his dropping polls is to try and grab some of the racist tkn er jerbs vote. Now he's up against another boring technocrat he must be absolutely shitting it.


----------



## SysOut (Nov 6, 2022)

We saw the same with Cameron versus Blair. It is difficult to oppose when you agree.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Nov 6, 2022)

Aside from the substantive point, that last line is well played


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 6, 2022)

The BBC website is airbrushing Starmer's comments.  They wouldn't have done that for Corbyn.


----------



## two sheds (Nov 6, 2022)

Indeed, was thinking earlier that they should be asking Starmer "Are you a racist?" at every interview in the light of the recent reports, like they asked Corbyn "Are you an antisemite?" whether he'd said anything or not.


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 7, 2022)




----------



## teqniq (Nov 7, 2022)

Do fuck off:


----------



## two sheds (Nov 7, 2022)

carbon capture - because that's been so hugely successful so far


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 8, 2022)

Not always a massive fan of Pat (certainly not as much as he is himself),  but he does have a point here.


----------



## emanymton (Nov 8, 2022)

danny la rouge said:


> Not always a massive fan of Pat (certainly not as much as he is himself),  but he does have a point here.



Good job Cameron is not around anymore


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 8, 2022)

People who are calling for a #GeneralElectionNOW need to address this stuff.  The anti immigrant rhetoric, the “arrest protesters” chat, his personal connections with private healthcare concerns, the anti working class neoliberalism… What are we supporting here? Him literally just not being Sunak?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 8, 2022)

danny la rouge said:


> People who are calling for a #GeneralElectionNOW need to address this stuff.  The anti immigrant rhetoric, the “arrest protesters” chat, his personal connections with private healthcare concerns, the anti working class neoliberalism… What are we supporting here? Him literally just not being Sunak?


Makes kinnock look like a lefty


----------



## Chz (Nov 8, 2022)

danny la rouge said:


> People who are calling for a #GeneralElectionNOW need to address this stuff.  The anti immigrant rhetoric, the “arrest protesters” chat, his personal connections with private healthcare concerns, the anti working class neoliberalism… What are we supporting here? Him literally just not being Sunak?


There is the hope that, much like what happened to Cameron and May, the party behind him will enforce some change. That said, Labour MPs are rarely as rebellious as Tory ones.


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 8, 2022)

Chz said:


> There is the hope that, much like what happened to Cameron and May, the party behind him will enforce some change. That said, Labour MPs are rarely as rebellious as Tory ones.


At the moment it just looks like he’s promising efficient evil instead of inefficient evil.  Hmm. Haud me back.


----------



## prunus (Nov 8, 2022)

danny la rouge said:


> People who are calling for a #GeneralElectionNOW need to address this stuff.  The anti immigrant rhetoric, the “arrest protesters” chat, his personal connections with private healthcare concerns, the anti working class neoliberalism… What are we supporting here? Him literally just not being Sunak?



We are supporting getting these fucking tories out of government?  Have you seen the devastation they're wreaking on the country??  

If you've broken your leg in the wilderness you make a splint out of whatever's to hand, until you can find proper treatment.

Yes Starmer's Labour is hardly inspiring.  But it just won't be as bad as the utter shower of shite currently eviscerating everything.  So we takes steps to staunch the bleeding, and move forward to something better from there.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 8, 2022)

prunus said:


> We are supporting getting these fucking tories out of government?  Have you seen the devastation they're wreaking on the country??
> 
> If you've broken your leg in the wilderness you make a splint out of whatever's to hand, until you can find proper treatment.
> 
> Yes Starmer's Labour is hardly inspiring.  But it just won't be as bad as the utter shower of shite currently eviscerating everything.  So we takes steps to staunch the bleeding, and move forward to something better from there.


do you know, this is exactly what people were saying in 1997.
and you mean you hope it won't be as bad as the utter shower of shite currently eviscerating everything
shammer will stick to the tory spending plans
we will not move forward to somewhere better with shammer in number ten


----------



## NoXion (Nov 8, 2022)

two sheds said:


> carbon capture - because that's been so hugely successful so far



What's the measure of success? Because my impression from listening to the climate apocalypse fanclub is that nothing is good enough.


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 8, 2022)

prunus said:


> hardly inspiring


Hardly inspiring! He literally said: “There’s too many immigrants in the NHS”. And “Longer sentences for protesters.”

Stuck in the desert, I wouldn’t make a splint for my broken leg from a snake.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Nov 8, 2022)

I'd eat my own leg rather than vote for him.


----------



## prunus (Nov 8, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> do you know, this is exactly what people were saying in 1997.
> and you mean you hope it won't be as bad as the utter shower of shite currently eviscerating everything
> shammer will stick to the tory spending plans
> we will not move forward to somewhere better with shammer in number ten



If someone's view is that Tony Blair's government wasn't better than continuing Tory rule, then well might as well just give up then.

My own view is that it was enormously better, in so many ways.  Most of which have been dismantled now and will have to be labouriously rebuilt, again.  It's what the Tories do - they destroy.  They have to go.  If anyone has any practical ideas of how to do that that don't involve voting Labour (in most of the country anyway) then I'd really like to hear them.


----------



## prunus (Nov 8, 2022)

danny la rouge said:


> Hardly inspiring! He literally said: “There’s too many immigrants in the NHS”. And “Longer sentences for protesters.”
> 
> Stuck in the desert, I wouldn’t make a splint for my broken leg from a snake.





Kevbad the Bad said:


> I'd eat my own leg rather than vote for him.



Ok, well, we have to hope that not too many anti-tories hold similar views, or it's continued Tory rule for us.  And to be clear - I think that's worse.


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 8, 2022)

prunus said:


> Ok, well, we have to hope that not too many anti-tories hold similar views, or it's continued Tory rule for us.  And to be clear - I think that's worse.


I think Truss was worse than Sunak. Still wouldn’t cause me to vote _for_ Sunak.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 8, 2022)

prunus said:


> If someone's view is that Tony Blair's government wasn't better than continuing Tory rule, then well might as well just give up then.
> 
> My own view is that it was enormously better, in so many ways.  Most of which have been dismantled now and will have to be labouriously rebuilt, again.  It's what the Tories do - they destroy.  They have to go.  If anyone has any practical ideas of how to do that that don't involve voting Labour (in most of the country anyway) then I'd really like to hear them.


Better for who? Do you think the world would be as it is if Iraq and afghanistan hadn't been invaded? Do you think daesh would have slaughtered hundreds in Europe or many thousands in the middle east? That millions would have been displaced? Jesus Mary and Joseph will you not look at the fucking world and give Blair his due credit


----------



## emanymton (Nov 8, 2022)

danny la rouge said:


> People who are calling for a #GeneralElectionNOW need to address this stuff.  The anti immigrant rhetoric, the “arrest protesters” chat, his personal connections with private healthcare concerns, the anti working class neoliberalism… What are we supporting here? Him literally just not being Sunak?


I'm not calling for a general election now or anything like that and Stammer is about a appealing as a bowl of rancid piss. 

But it is like when Johnson/Truss were being forced out and people (rightly) argued it makes no difference we will get someone just as bad or worse. But for me at least there are 2 things this misses.

The first is that if we are going to he fucked over whatever at least let me laugh at one of these fucks along the way.

The more serious point is that no matter how tiny I want the idea that there is some accountability for these cunts, and there actions, to persist. That Johnson can't do whatever he wants with no consequences that a government can't just tank the economy became of some insane ideology and carry on.

It is woefully inadequate and the replacement is no better, but I want that over them just being able to do whatever the fuck they want and everyone just shrugs their shoulders.


----------



## DotCommunist (Nov 8, 2022)

no way I'm voting for whites-first trans baiting reactionary authoritarian starmer. I'm in a tory aeturnum in this town anyway so it makes no odds to the wider poll


----------



## prunus (Nov 8, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> Better for who? Do you think the world would be as it is if Iraq and afghanistan hadn't been invaded? Do you think daesh would have slaughtered hundreds in Europe or many thousands in the middle east? That millions would have been displaced? Jesus Mary and Joseph wi you not look at the fucking world and give Blair his due credit



Yes there were some bad things done.  But there were also some good things.  The same is true even of say David Cameron's govt, but (IMO) the ratio between them was better weighted under Tony Blair than eg Cameron, or any other Tory since the 70s at least, and probably ever.

eg



> According to one study, in terms of promoting social equality, the first Blair Government "turned out to be the most redistributive in decades; it ran Harold Wilson's 1960s' government close." From 1997 to 2005, for instance, all the benefits targeted on children through Tax Credits, Child Benefit and Income Support had gone up by 72% in real terms. Improvements were also made in financial support to pensioners, and by 2004, the poorest third of pensioners were £1,750 a year better off than under the system as it used to be. As a means of reducing energy costs and therefore the incidence of fuel poverty, a new programme of grants for cavity wall and loft insulation and for draught proofing was launched, with some 670,000 homes taking up the scheme. Various adjustments were also made in social welfare benefits. Families were allowed to earn a little more before Housing Benefit was cut, and the benefit was raised for families where the main earner worked part-time, while 2,000,000 pensioners were offered automatic help with their council tax bills, worth £400 each, although many did not take advantage of this benefit. According to one study, the Blair ministry's record on benefits, taken in the round, was "unprecedented", with 3.7% real terms growth each year from 2002 to 2005



Sound like something the Tories would ever ever do?

(source wiki - there's a load of other stuff on there about the good things done, as well as the bad: Premiership of Tony Blair - Wikipedia )


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 8, 2022)

prunus said:


> Yes there were some bad things done.  But there were also some good things.  The same is true even of say David Cameron's govt, but (IMO) the ratio between them was better weighted under Tony Blair than eg Cameron, or any other Tory since the 70s at least, and probably ever.
> 
> eg
> 
> ...


you weigh foreigners' lives very light.

and the roots of today's instability - at a time when to successfully deal with climate change we need all the stability we can get - go back to the doors of two men, one of whom you lionise.


----------



## Chz (Nov 8, 2022)

It is a bit depressing that the Blair government is both horrific and yet still the best government of the past 50 years.


----------



## two sheds (Nov 8, 2022)

NoXion said:


> What's the measure of success? Because my impression from listening to the climate apocalypse fanclub is that nothing is good enough.


Are there any large-scale installations yet? Perhaps it's moved on but for years it's been promised as the solution to burning fossil fuels but there were no actual installations. It seemed mainly to be highlighted in answer to criticisms of fossil fuels in the spirit of "ah yes but carbon capture will solve that". It's saving about 0.1% of global emissions at the moment which is more than I'd thought, but I think the climate apocalypse fanclub would prefer to see investments in renewables and infrastructure to even out the peaks and troughs.


----------



## prunus (Nov 8, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> you weigh foreigners' lives very light.
> 
> and the roots of today's instability - at a time when to successfully deal with climate change we need all the stability we can get - go back to the doors of two men, one of whom you lionise.


 I do not lionise him, as I thought I'd made clear.  I think he was _better than the Tories_.   Not great, but did some things I consider important, socially and redistributively.  

I'd love a proper left wing government.  I don't see any way I'm going to get one.  So I want the Tories out in the meantime.  The current option for doing that is Starmer's Labour.


----------



## NoXion (Nov 8, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Are there any large-scale installations yet? Perhaps it's moved on but for years it's been promised as the solution to burning fossil fuels but there were no actual installations. It seemed mainly to be highlighted in answer to criticisms of fossil fuels in the spirit of "ah yes but carbon capture will solve that". It's saving about 0.1% of global emissions at the moment which is more than I'd thought, but I think the climate apocalypse fanclub would prefer to see investments in renewables and infrastructure to even out the peaks and troughs.



My impression as a non-specialist is that carbon capture is most effectively used as an additional step in already existing CO2-generating processes, rather than building dedicated facilities for the purpose. Concrete also absorbs CO2 but the hippies don't like that one either.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 8, 2022)

prunus said:


> I do not lionise him, as I thought I'd made clear.  I think he was _better than the Tories_.   Not great, but did some things I consider important, socially and redistributively.
> 
> I'd love a proper left wing government.  I don't see any way I'm going to get one.  So I want the Tories out in the meantime.  The current option for doing that is Starmer's Labour.


so, yes, a million dead and millions displaced but he wasn't all bad


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 8, 2022)

Chz said:


> It is a bit depressing that the Blair government is both horrific and yet still the best government of the past 50 years.


I'm going to say 40 years. For all its many faults, the Wilson/Callaghan govt at least paid lip service to the notion that the rich are too rich and there needs to be redistribution of wealth. Also didn't start any wars.


----------



## two sheds (Nov 8, 2022)

NoXion said:


> My impression as a non-specialist is that carbon capture is most effectively used as an additional step in already existing CO2-generating processes, rather than building dedicated facilities for the purpose. Concrete also absorbs CO2 but the hippies don't like that one either.


Indeed, you'd mainly use them for capturing CO2 from industrial processes, but still 0.1% isn't a huge amount. Concrete absorbs CO2 but I thought only a fifth of the CO2 released during manufacture so a problem rather than a solution. Hippies also admittedly aren't keen on the cement dust, either.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 8, 2022)

NoXion said:


> My impression as a non-specialist is that carbon capture is most effectively used as an additional step in already existing CO2-generating processes, rather than building dedicated facilities for the purpose. Concrete also absorbs CO2 but the hippies don't like that one either.


yeh the sand mining's a bit shit too.


----------



## prunus (Nov 8, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> so, yes, a million dead and millions displaced but he wasn't all bad



Inherent in this argument is the idea that had Major (or Tories in general) remained in power they wouldn't have joined in with the US in the same way.  I believe they would have.  Do you believe they wouldn't?  Because that does change the assessment.

So as far as I can see the options are (were) a) Tories - doing the bad thing* and b) Labour - doing the same bad thing but also some good things.  It'd be lovely if there were some other options, but there aren't.

I choose b.

* and probably some other bad things, but that is my bias - I assume Tories are evil.


----------



## Chz (Nov 8, 2022)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I'm going to say 40 years. For all its many faults, the Wilson/Callaghan govt at least paid lip service to the notion that the rich are too rich and there needs to be redistribution of wealth. Also didn't start any wars.


In their intent, and up to the mid-point of their time, certainly. But they have the stigma of not leaving the country in a better place than they found it. Even post banking crisis, the UK was in a better place in 2010 than it was in 1997.


----------



## Sue (Nov 8, 2022)

danny la rouge said:


> What are we supporting here? Him literally just not being Sunak?


Not 'we' tbf.


----------



## Signal 11 (Nov 8, 2022)

NoXion said:


> My impression as a non-specialist is that carbon capture is most effectively used as an additional step in already existing CO2-generating processes, rather than building dedicated facilities for the purpose.



Its only effective use is as a stalling tactic, like this.


----------



## NoXion (Nov 8, 2022)

Signal 11 said:


> Its only effective use is as a stalling tactic, like this.



I don't doubt that it is used that way, but it strikes me as analogous to when housing developers go back on their promises to provide affordable housing; the root of the problem stems from corporate malfeasance, rather than the idea of affordable housing.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 8, 2022)

prunus said:


> Inherent in this argument is the idea that had Major (or Tories in general) remained in power they wouldn't have joined in with the US in the same way.  I believe they would have.  Do you believe they wouldn't?  Because that does change the assessment.
> 
> So as far as I can see the options are (were) a) Tories - doing the bad thing* and b) Labour - doing the same bad thing but also some good things.  It'd be lovely if there were some other options, but there aren't.
> 
> ...


you might think this a good argument but we're not hypothesising about tories, we're talking about what really did happen with tony blair. and that's before bringing in the massacres precipitated by western air strikes in the balkans, another of blair's illegal wars. it's not like until 10 sept 2001 blair was a pacific prime minister. and of course before the balkans was operation desert fox.

maybe you can give some examples of illegal wars started by the tories to round things out.


----------



## Chz (Nov 8, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> you might think this a good argument but we're not hypothesising about tories, we're talking about what really did happen with tony blair. and that's before bringing in the massacres precipitated by western air strikes in the balkans, another of blair's illegal wars. it's not like until 10 sept 2001 blair was a pacific prime minister. and of course before the balkans was operation desert fox.
> 
> maybe you can give some examples of illegal wars started by the tories to round things out.


It's not a competition. The post-ww2 colonial years have put more than enough blood on both parties to cover them for another century at least.  The only reason Britain didn't jump into Vietnam is that they were busy licking their wounds from the colonial adventures of the past 10 years and needed a break. The idea that any British government ever wasn't bloodthirsty at heart is as nonsense as the concept of an "illegal war". There never has been such a thing, and it's unlikely there ever will be, international law being the way that it is.

It's ridiculous to try and assign some sort of morality on a nuclear-armed nation. Every one of them are shits. If any post-war UK government was ever serious about peace, they'd retire the nuclear force.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 8, 2022)

I don't think it's controversial to say that Blair was a bit bomby. Would a tory (or a different Labour leader) have been just as bomby in the same situation? We can't say. Quite possibly not, though. It's a high bar.

To link to the thread, do I trust Starmer not to be a bit bomby? No, I don't.


----------



## Chz (Nov 8, 2022)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I don't think it's controversial to say that Blair was a bit bomby. Would a tory (or a different Labour leader) have been just as bomby in the same situation? We can't say. Quite possibly not, though. It's a high bar.


We can't say, it's true. But I would attest that Britain's 21st century diplomacy is a direct continuation of its 20th century diplomacy. Plus ca change.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Nov 8, 2022)

I could imagine Starmer bombing some poor fuckers just to prove how unwoke he is to be honest.


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## danny la rouge (Nov 8, 2022)

emanymton said:


> I'm not calling for a general election now or anything like that and Stammer is about a appealing as a bowl of rancid piss.
> 
> But it is like when Johnson/Truss were being forced out and people (rightly) argued it makes no difference we will get someone just as bad or worse. But for me at least there are 2 things this misses.
> 
> ...


I get that, and I’m fully sympathetic.  And I agree, it _is_ just like the difference between Truss and Sunak. Sunak was a fractionally better prospect than Truss.  And what a thoroughly depressing analysis that is.  We can have a choice between two technocrats who are pandering to the racist-and-lock-‘em-up brigade. 

Bless us, every one. ☹️


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## Pickman's model (Nov 8, 2022)

Chz said:


> It's not a competition. The post-ww2 colonial years have put more than enough blood on both parties to cover them for another century at least.  The only reason Britain didn't jump into Vietnam is that they were busy licking their wounds from the colonial adventures of the past 10 years and needed a break. The idea that any British government ever wasn't bloodthirsty at heart is as nonsense as the concept of an "illegal war". There never has been such a thing, and it's unlikely there ever will be, international law being the way that it is.
> 
> It's ridiculous to try and assign some sort of morality on a nuclear-armed nation. Every one of them are shits. If any post-war UK government was ever serious about peace, they'd retire the nuclear force.


it's very good of you to step up for prunus. i didn't mean to suggest it was a competition but i wanted to give him the opportunity to throw libya into the the equation. 

i don't buy your reason for britain not jumping into vietnam under wilson with johnson. mainly, i think, because it's bollocks. this article Did Britain Support The Vietnam War? | HistoryExtra adduces a variety of other more cogent reasons. if the tories had been in power, matters might have been rather different as they had - as the article notes - been rather closer with the americans over vietnam


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## DotCommunist (Nov 8, 2022)

I mean this is a labour party that welcomes tory defectors with open arms but has been stitching selections repeatedly to exclude anyone left of gordon brown. Functionally, it'll be business as usual.


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## Chz (Nov 8, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> it's very good of you to step up for prunus. i didn't mean to suggest it was a competition but i wanted to give him the opportunity to throw libya into the the equation.
> 
> i don't buy your reason for britain not jumping into vietnam under wilson with johnson. mainly, i think, because it's bollocks. this article Did Britain Support The Vietnam War? | HistoryExtra adduces a variety of other more cogent reasons. if the tories had been in power, matters might have been rather different as they had - as the article notes - been rather closer with the americans over vietnam


I'm not so much stepping up for prunus as poking my nose in to say I think every single British government had a bloodthirsty side to it, and the shades of grey are so close that I refuse to call Blair the worst because it suggests that someone was best.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 8, 2022)

Chz said:


> I'm not so much stepping up for prunus as poking my nose in to say I think every single British government had a bloodthirsty side to it, and the shades of grey are so close that I refuse to call Blair the worst because it suggests that someone was best.


yes. liz truss was best. throughout her time in office the armed forces did not, i believe, kill anyone, nor were wars started or even continued. the nation was at peace throughout


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## littlebabyjesus (Nov 8, 2022)

Chz said:


> I'm not so much stepping up for prunus as poking my nose in to say I think every single British government had a bloodthirsty side to it, and the shades of grey are so close that I refuse to call Blair the worst because it suggests that someone was best.


I'd characterise it by saying that Blair went above and beyond in his zeal for dropping bombs. In the warmonger exams, he got an A**, the extra star given for the initiative he displayed in making sure those bombs got dropped.


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## prunus (Nov 8, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> you might think this a good argument but we're not hypothesising about tories, we're talking about what really did happen with tony blair. and that's before bringing in the massacres precipitated by western air strikes in the balkans, another of blair's illegal wars. it's not like until 10 sept 2001 blair was a pacific prime minister. and of course before the balkans was operation desert fox.
> 
> maybe you can give some examples of illegal wars started by the tories to round things out.



I'm not really sure what the importance of the concept of a war being 'illegal' is - surely it's the warriness of a war that is to be deplored (going a bit Dr Seuss there), rather than its (il)legality.

The gulf war was definitely under the Tories.  And Bosnia I think?  And there's the Falklands of course.  I think on the whole UK governments of both stripes have done pretty much the same in terms of warring.

But if your position is basically that a significantly socially regressive government that does less warring is better than a significantly socially progressive one that does more warring (providing the 'less' and 'more' are of approximately the same order, that's important of course) then that's a viable position.  It's just not one I agree with.  We don't have to agree about it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 8, 2022)

prunus said:


> I'm not really sure what the importance of the concept of a war being 'illegal' is - surely it's the warriness of a war that is to be deplored (going a bit Dr Seuss there), rather than its (il)legality.
> 
> The gulf war was definitely under the Tories.  And Bosnia I think?  And there's the Falklands of course.  I think on the whole UK governments of both stripes have done pretty much the same in terms of warring.
> 
> But if your position is basically that a significantly socially regressive government that does less warring is better than a significantly socially progressive one that does more warring (providing the 'less' and 'more' are of approximately the same order, that's important of course) then that's a viable position.  It's just not one I agree with.  We don't have to agree about it.


there's several points in your post that need unpicking. there are legal wars, wars with the sanction of the united nations eg the gulf war. there are wars to eject invaders, eg the falklands war, which i think most people would see as justified. then there are wars of choice. and after nuremburg the worst war crime was deemed to be wars of aggression, such as the 2003 invasion of iraq. there was only really the pretence of legality about that, which wasn't sanctioned by the un security council, and barely sanctioned by the house of commons. if you remember the time, that was when the 45 minute bollocks was told to the house. and the commons was told there would be other opportunities to vote on the action. which there weren't. but leaving the legality of the action to one side, the effects of the war and the war in afghanistan will be with us for a long time to come. the destruction of the ba'athist regime in iraq might have seemed a good idea at the time but unleashed forces which will continue to affect the middle east for many years yet to come. if there hadn't been the invasion of iraq i don't think there'd have been the civil war in syria. many hundreds of thousands of people have died in both countries who wouldn't but for the hubris of george bush and tony blair.

the insanity of the invasion, its bungled aftermath and the bloody civil wars in iraq and afghanistan, set the stage for the war against ukraine which i don't think could have happened without that vile precedent. the vast waste of treasure, both british and american, sits alongside the waste of lives. and without the wars in iraq and afghanistan i don't think you'd be seeing the internal ructions in the united states. sure, there'd be people pissed off as there were in the 90s (i think it is not without significance that timothy mcveigh was a veteran of the gulf war). but i don't believe that things would have descended to the point where a civil war in the united states is being discussed as a very real probability. and for me chinese ambitions have been emboldened by the way america squandered its money, weaponry and reputation on wars in the middle east.

maybe these effects could not all be foreseen when the invasion was first mooted, planned and put into place. but they've left us now with instability at a time when stability is desperately needed, if there's to be a future without apocalyptic climate change. so, looking back from this vantage point i think that for me the most major factor in getting us to where we are has been the appalling wars which have dominated so much of this century. sure there are other factors. the financial crisis of 2008. the tory decisions over the course of the past decade, from austerity to the brexit referendum and beyond. the pandemic. but for me blair's most lasting legacies are the ripples from his wars, which have not yet ebbed away.

without the wars blair might enjoy a very different reputation today. maybe. but i always thought he was going to be authoritarian and unpleasant.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 8, 2022)

and another thing - i think another thing that can be laid at blair's door is the way in which the armed forces have become so much more central to the country's way of seeing itself. sure, there was always the act of remembrance on 11 november or nearest sunday. but there wasn't always the armed forces covenant (tho arguably there should have been, the treatment of veterans has long been a stain on the mod) and there wasn't armed forces day or the slavish worship of military terms, the way in which the bbc for some years, maybe still does, describe things as being done with military precision. there's been a concerted effort to resituate the military in the public consciousness, into which so many people have bought as veterans from the greater wars, from ww1 and ww2, have died away. the frankly mawkish way in which poppies now adorn tube trains and dustcarts. for me that's all down to the wars too.


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## Chz (Nov 8, 2022)

I do agree with you for the most part Pickman's, but are you at one point up there arguing that it wouldn't have occurred to Russia to invade places without the Iraq War?


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## Jeff Robinson (Nov 8, 2022)

.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 8, 2022)

Chz said:


> I do agree with you for the most part Pickman's, but are you at one point up there arguing that it wouldn't have occurred to Russia to invade places without the Iraq War?


How Russia war on Ukraine echoes precedent set by US in Iraq | Fadi Farhat | AW for example

but yeh i don't think that russia would have invaded ukraine without the invasion of iraq, i think in many ways the past twenty years would have been far more pacific if that particular war had not been chosen


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## littlebabyjesus (Nov 8, 2022)

Chz said:


> I do agree with you for the most part Pickman's, but are you at one point up there arguing that it wouldn't have occurred to Russia to invade places without the Iraq War?


We're a long way down the line of hypotheticals at this point, so who knows? But the Iraq invasion in particular (and Afghanistan to a large extent) was a blatant infringement of the principle of state sovereignty. 'Regime change' through war. Invasion justified by pointing out how bad a regime is. As far as I know, Blair and his apologists still take that line - _well, we got rid of Saddam, so it wasn't all bad_. Russia's invasion of Ukraine has followed in that tradition - it is the mirror-image of liberal interventionism. 

I agree with Pickman's that the ripples from Blair's wars are still spreading. The disintegration of Iraq, ISIS, Syria... And now arguably Ukraine.


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## Kid_Eternity (Nov 8, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> How Russia war on Ukraine echoes precedent set by US in Iraq | Fadi Farhat | AW for example
> 
> but yeh i don't think that russia would have invaded ukraine without the invasion of iraq, i think in many ways the past twenty years would have been far more pacific if that particular war had not been chosen


I don't think this is true, Putin has been on about a greater Russia since before Iraq was a twinkle in GWB's eye...


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## Dystopiary (Nov 8, 2022)

How does it get so easily forgotten that Labour introduced changes the benefit system in a way that destroyed lives, against the advice of experts. Their "welfare reforms" have done untold damage, and they have no plans whatsover to try to change things there for the better. If anything, they're worse now than they were then. They're not only an enemy of the workers, but also those who can't work. They're absolute scum.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 8, 2022)

Kid_Eternity said:


> I don't think this is true, Putin has been on about a greater Russia since before Iraq was a twinkle in GWB's eye...


yeh. it's an opinion. being as kiev was the first capital of the rus obviously ukraine has some importance for the russians. but in my opinion absent the invasion of iraq and its effects in the middle east i don't think they would have invaded.


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## danny la rouge (Nov 8, 2022)

Dystopiary said:


> How does it get so easily forgotten that Labour introduced changes the benefit system in a way that destroyed lives, against the advice of experts. Their "welfare reforms" have done untold damage, and they have no plans whatsover to try to change things there for the better. If anything, they're worse now than they were then. They're not only an enemy of the workers, but also those who can't work. They're absolute scum.


If they rebranded as Capital, that would at least be honest.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 8, 2022)

danny la rouge said:


> If they rebranded as Capital, that would at least be honest.


or scum.


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## Dystopiary (Nov 8, 2022)

danny la rouge said:


> If they rebranded as Capital, that would at least be honest.


Exactly.


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## hitmouse (Nov 8, 2022)

I mean, this discussion is interesting and all, but I'd like to go back to the starting point - Danny said:


danny la rouge said:


> People who are calling for a #GeneralElectionNOW need to address this stuff.  The anti immigrant rhetoric, the “arrest protesters” chat, his personal connections with private healthcare concerns, the anti working class neoliberalism… What are we supporting here? Him literally just not being Sunak?


And prunus replied:


prunus said:


> We are supporting getting these fucking tories out of government?  Have you seen the devastation they're wreaking on the country??
> 
> If you've broken your leg in the wilderness you make a splint out of whatever's to hand, until you can find proper treatment.
> 
> Yes Starmer's Labour is hardly inspiring.  But it just won't be as bad as the utter shower of shite currently eviscerating everything.  So we takes steps to staunch the bleeding, and move forward to something better from there.


But what I haven't seen anyone asking is, what does it mean to be calling for a #GeneralElectionNOW? Like, I want a pay rise that keeps up with inflation, or at least vaguely approaches it, and I have some understanding of what it might take to get there, by taking strike action that may or may not inflict sufficient disruption on my employer that they give in and negotiate something better. Similarly, Don't Pay seem to me like they're politically serious - they have an aim (reduced energy bills), have identified relevant decision makers/power holders (the energy companies and the government), and have a means of exerting pressure (non-payment). 
With calling for a general election and getting the tories out, what's the plan? Is the idea that Sunak will call a general election just so he can lose it? Or is it that a critical mass of tory backbenchers will defy the leadership and join with Labour in bringing about a general election that, again, will not have any obvious benefits for them and may well lead to them losing their seats? Or if it's understood that neither of those things are likely to happen of their own free will, is there some kind of plan to exert leverage on them, and what does that look like if so?
Cos without any of those questions being answered, it's just an "I'd like", the same way I'd like a million pounds or a pet capybara, it's not serious politics.
Or if the plan isn't to have a general election now, but to wait till 2024, then a different but related set of objections apply - it's fine to have conversations about things you might like to happen in 2024, but it's definitely not like, Proper Pragmatic Harm Reduction or whatever.


danny la rouge said:


> If they rebranded as Capital, that would at least be honest.


And there'd be potential for a big merger if they dropped the "l" too.


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## danny la rouge (Nov 8, 2022)

Yup. Like with the demo at the weekend for a #GeneralElectionNOW.  OK, we get you’re unhappy with the Tories, but “what’s the plan, Phil?” (Modern Families reference there. Don’t say I’m not good to you).

I agree. There do seem more useful courses of action.


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## inva (Nov 8, 2022)

danny la rouge said:


> Yup. Like with the demo at the weekend for a #GeneralElectionNOW.  OK, we get you’re unhappy with the Tories, but “what’s the plan, Phil?” (Modern Families reference there. Don’t say I’m not good to you).
> 
> I agree. There do seem more useful courses of action.


Is that the bit where the car is rolling backwards?


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## danny la rouge (Nov 8, 2022)

inva said:


> Is that the bit where the car is rolling backwards?


Yes, towards the cliff!


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## inva (Nov 8, 2022)

danny la rouge said:


> Yes, towards the cliff!


I'd like to put myself forward for the role of Luke throwing up at the side in this analogy.


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## Serge Forward (Nov 8, 2022)

Just to add a bit more to this discussion... how much of Thatcher's anti union laws did the last Labour government repeal? Answer: fuck all.

So how much of the more recent, even more draconian Tory anti union laws will an incoming Starmer government repeal? Just take a good guess.

Gang of cunts. Fuck Starmer and fuck Labour.


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## ska invita (Nov 8, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> and another thing - i think another thing that can be laid at blair's door is the way in which the armed forces have become so much more central to the country's way of seeing itself. sure, there was always the act of remembrance on 11 november or nearest sunday. but there wasn't always the armed forces covenant (tho arguably there should have been, the treatment of veterans has long been a stain on the mod) and there wasn't armed forces day or the slavish worship of military terms, the way in which the bbc for some years, maybe still does, describe things as being done with military precision. there's been a concerted effort to resituate the military in the public consciousness, into which so many people have bought as veterans from the greater wars, from ww1 and ww2, have died away. the frankly mawkish way in which poppies now adorn tube trains and dustcarts. for me that's all down to the wars too.


agree it was from this time, but i think it mainly came off the back of Help for Heroes - Wikipedia (launched 2007)more than the military itself, though they sail in the wake/support it


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## SysOut (Nov 8, 2022)

Pinochet, Sierra Leone.


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## littlebabyjesus (Nov 8, 2022)

ska invita said:


> agree it was from this time, but i think it mainly came off the back of Help for Heroes - Wikipedia (launched 2007)more than the military itself, though they sail in the wake/support it


But why did Help for Heroes have success? Because of Iraq and Afghanistan. If British soldiers hadn't been killing and being killed at the time, it would never have been created. And the renewal of the poppy appeal as something that isn't at all about 'lest we forget' but is explicitly about those who are dying now again is wholly down to Blair's wars. It is a normalisation of permanent war.


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## Serge Forward (Nov 9, 2022)

And the increased militarisation of everyday life


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## gosub (Nov 9, 2022)

littlebabyjesus said:


> But why did Help for Heroes have success? Because of Iraq and Afghanistan. If British soldiers hadn't been killing and being killed at the time, it would never have been created. And the renewal of the poppy appeal as something that isn't at all about 'lest we forget' but is explicitly about those who are dying now again is wholly down to Blair's wars. It is a normalisation of permanent war.


SSAFA, the Armed Forces charity   are the real deal


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## Leighsw2 (Nov 9, 2022)

Basically, their whole approach is to slavishly appeal to a Boomer Gammon demographic and everybody else can just fuck off , "or it's the Tories". I have no idea whether that completely cynical and empty political calculation will lead to a Labour Government (it doesn't deserve to), but I feel very sure that, if it does, it will be the worst Labour Government we have ever known. I pity our poor country.


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## ska invita (Nov 9, 2022)

littlebabyjesus said:


> But why did Help for Heroes have success? Because of Iraq and Afghanistan. If British soldiers hadn't been killing and being killed at the time, it would never have been created. And the renewal of the poppy appeal as something that isn't at all about 'lest we forget' but is explicitly about those who are dying now again is wholly down to Blair's wars. It is a normalisation of permanent war.


Totally agree, with you and Pickman's.... Just adding that my perception ( unproven) is HfH played a key role and that the charity does seem to have been a grassroots affair in its inception, which caught the public mood supposedly after the Lee Rigby murder.  That slightly changes the nature of the military support... It's not just been dumped on us from above


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## Chz (Nov 9, 2022)

Serge Forward said:


> And the increased militarisation of everyday life


Oh jesus, I hope we're not going down that road of _hand on heart_ "Thank-you for your service" bullshit here. Not only is it gag-worthy, but I was watching something on Netflix where the host did it and the guy was a military paralegal for chrissakes. I'm sure he's risked his life getting papercuts for democracy.

Edit: That's not to demean paralegals, but the majority of those in military service will never fire a gun in anger and yet they're still fetishised for "putting their lives on the line". I think your average copper is in more danger than your average serviceman, but we don't worship them.


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## littlebabyjesus (Nov 9, 2022)

Chz said:


> Oh jesus, I hope we're not going down that road of _hand on heart_ "Thank-you for your service" bullshit here. Not only is it gag-worthy, but I was watching something on Netflix where the host did it and the guy was a military paralegal for chrissakes. I'm sure he's risked his life getting papercuts for democracy.


I would say that we're already a long way down that road.


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## Serge Forward (Nov 9, 2022)

Looks that way. Remember kids, a poppy's not just for Remembrance Sunday, it's for the rest of the year as well.


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## killer b (Nov 9, 2022)

I have literally not seen a single poppy worn by an actual person this year. It's a lip service thing for public service broadcast types and politicians, the vast majority of people don't bother


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## danny la rouge (Nov 9, 2022)

killer b said:


> I have literally not seen a single poppy worn by an actual person this year. It's a lip service thing for public service broadcast types and politicians, the vast majority of people don't bother


Another example of how The Meja and social media are not real life.


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## kabbes (Nov 9, 2022)

killer b said:


> I have literally not seen a single poppy worn by an actual person this year. It's a lip service thing for public service broadcast types and politicians, the vast majority of people don't bother


Yes, this is true, and much more so than usual. Because, like you say, literally _not one person_.  And round here is very true blue — normally, I would see at least a bit of poppy wearing by now. Not sure what’s going on, to be honest.


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## ska invita (Nov 9, 2022)

killer b said:


> I have literally not seen a single poppy worn by an actual person this year. It's a lip service thing for public service broadcast types and politicians, the vast majority of people don't bother


Depends where you live, I've seen loads, including hundreds of poppies on lampposts, Street sellers etc
That said less this year than last


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## kabbes (Nov 9, 2022)

There is certainly institutional poppying. It’s on lampposts and businesses. But I’ve not seen them  on individuals


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## killer b (Nov 9, 2022)

I was in London at the weekend, roamed all over the place and saw none. Same up here this week. There was some guys selling them at the service station on the way up north but no-one seemed to be buying. 

Actually I have seen one lamppost poppy, but it looked like it was last years - was a bit faded and sad


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## Serge Forward (Nov 9, 2022)

killer b said:


> I have literally not seen a single poppy worn by an actual person this year. It's a lip service thing for public service broadcast types and politicians, the vast majority of people don't bother


Actually that's a fair point. In previous years there were loads but less this year. Local to me, there's this dickead whose house is decked out with England flags, poppy flags and lest we forget crap, but that's there all year round. The knob.


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## killer b (Nov 9, 2022)

kabbes said:


> There is certainly institutional poppying. It’s on lampposts and businesses. But I’ve not seen them  on individuals


it was the same with the queen dying - hardly anyone real gave much of a fuck beyond the bank holiday, but every shop, bar, company twitter account, newsreader and politician was decked out in black. It's like a weird parallel reality.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 9, 2022)

Serge Forward said:


> Actually that's a fair point. In previous years there were loads but less this year. Local to me, there's this dickead whose house is decked out with England flags, poppy flags and lest we forget crap, but that's there all year round. The knob.


Seen more jehovah's witnesses than poppy sellers


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## SpookyFrank (Nov 9, 2022)

littlebabyjesus said:


> But why did Help for Heroes have success?



Because there's a lot of fuckwits who can't tell a goat turd from a landmine?


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## killer b (Nov 9, 2022)

I read an article a while ago (sadly I've not been able to find it again) that made a fairly convincing case that the rise in support for the military (including stuff like Help for Heroes and the like) among working class communities is because the military is one of the few remaining big employers for kids from those communities, and one of the most visible routes to success for many of them as a result.


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## SpookyFrank (Nov 9, 2022)

killer b said:


> I read an article a while ago (sadly I've not been able to find it again) that made a fairly convincing case that the rise in support for the military (including stuff like Help for Heroes and the like) among working class communities is because the military is one of the few remaining big employers for kids from those communities, and one of the most visible routes to success for many of them as a result.



So successful that...there has to be several charities dedicated to patching up the survivors.

Although none as far as I'm aware dedicated to repairing the traumatic effects of a parent's military heroism on their children.


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## redsquirrel (Nov 9, 2022)

danny la rouge said:


> People who are calling for a #GeneralElectionNOW need to address this stuff.  The anti immigrant rhetoric, the “arrest protesters” chat, his personal connections with private healthcare concerns, the anti working class neoliberalism… What are we supporting here? Him literally just not being Sunak?


But he's not a Tory Danny!


prunus said:


> Ok, well, we have to hope that not too many anti-tories hold similar views, or it's continued Tory rule for us.  And to be clear - I think that's worse.


This is the harm of Anti-Toryism. The removal of any coherent politics into just a dislike of the colour blue.

There is no way in fuck I'm going to vote Labour, especially not for Hilary Benn. 
That does not mean I'm going to chest prod comrades that vote Labour out of some sort of forlorn hope, tribal loyalty or whatever. 
Hell I voted Labour in 2017 and 2019, not because of political reasons but emotional ones - 2017 a surprised pleasure at a party issuing a social democratic manifesto for the first time in my (voting) life, 2019 in a knowingly useless attempt to give two fingers up to the labour right.

But the argument that socialists should throw their politics away and join liberals - fuck that.
And this is not based on some ideological purity, it is absolutely practical - liberalism is the problem. It is the cause of inequality, it is the reason that populisms are returning. Any real class politics has to be made not aligned to liberalism but in the face of it, as the gains of the working class during the middle/latter part of the 20th Century were.
Indeed the ideological purity is on the part of those that insist that socialists, communists, anarchist must give up their politics and support a "progressive alliance" that is utterly opposed to their politics.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 9, 2022)

danny la rouge said:


> At the moment it just looks like he’s promising efficient evil instead of inefficient evil.  Hmm. Haud me back.



He's run his own party into the ground though. Labour has gone from half a million members and money to burn to a bankrupt shell. Grassroots party staff are leaving in disgust every day. There's no basis at all to think that Starmer will magically know how to run a country when he can't do the job he's got now.


----------



## BristolEcho (Nov 9, 2022)

killer b said:


> I read an article a while ago (sadly I've not been able to find it again) that made a fairly convincing case that the rise in support for the military (including stuff like Help for Heroes and the like) among working class communities is because the military is one of the few remaining big employers for kids from those communities, and one of the most visible routes to success for many of them as a result.


And our communities are actively targeted by the Armed Forces in particular for that reason.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 9, 2022)

redsquirrel said:


> But he's not a Tory Danny!
> 
> This is the harm of Anti-Toryism. The removal of any coherent politics into just a dislike of the colour blue.
> 
> ...


Tbh it isn't even liberalism but toryism in a pink jacket


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 10, 2022)

Starmer wouldn’t pay nurses what they’re asking and doesn’t think they should have gone on strike. 









						Starmer 'empathises' with nurses but won't commit to inflation-busting payrise  | ITV News
					

The Labour leader told ITV News he didn't 'want to make promises I can't keep' and that the pressing issue to resolve in the health service was staffing. | ITV National News




					www.itv.com
				





The Labour leader told ITV News Deputy Political Editor Anushka Asthana he didn't "want to make promises I can't keep" when asked if he would support a pay rise for nurses that exceeds inflation.

He’s also not "going to pretend" that the strike was the outcome he hoped for.

"I know the impact that will have on so many people needing medical care," he added.

Before admitting he is indeed a Tory cunt and in need of a good doing.


----------



## maomao (Nov 10, 2022)

killer b said:


> I have literally not seen a single poppy worn by an actual person this year. It's a lip service thing for public service broadcast types and politicians, the vast majority of people don't bother


People are short of money and less likely to carry cash these days.


----------



## stethoscope (Nov 10, 2022)

danny la rouge said:


> Starmer wouldn’t pay nurses what they’re asking and doesn’t think they should have gone on strike.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He's such a slippery cunt.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 10, 2022)

maomao said:


> If Sunak wants to be John Major he'll need to have an affair with a junior minister.


Let's be blunt. He needs to fuck Edwina Currie.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 10, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Nice dog-whistle phrasing, rather than "we should be training up more people for the NHS"


Reinstating bursaries for nurses would be good, too. That doesn't seem to have occurred to Sir Keir Smarmer.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 10, 2022)

stethoscope said:


> He's such a slippery cunt.


He's a morality-free shitball. That's why the Establishment think he's "The One" to lead Labour.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 10, 2022)

ViolentPanda said:


> Let's be blunt. He needs to fuck Edwina Currie.


He'll catch salmonella


----------



## SysOut (Nov 10, 2022)

ViolentPanda said:


> a morality-free shitball


Honi soit qui mal y pense
He wants to garter a few more honours


----------



## 8ball (Nov 10, 2022)

ViolentPanda said:


> He's a morality-free shitball. That's why the Establishment think he's "The One" to lead Labour.



Part of me wants to argue with this.
That part of me is wrong. 

We’re properly up shit creek.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Nov 10, 2022)

stethoscope said:


> He's such a slippery cunt.



I don't think he's even particularly slippery to be honest. He's a leaden footed clumsy cunt.


----------



## The39thStep (Nov 11, 2022)

hopefully not out of place


----------



## ska invita (Nov 11, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> hopefully not out of place



He's not far off the look


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 11, 2022)

ska invita said:


> He's not far off the look
> 
> View attachment 351050


major gowen would be a better leader of the labour party and a more socialist politician than shammer


----------



## two sheds (Nov 12, 2022)

So Mr Starmer, are you and your party racist? 









						Birmingham Labour group in racism row over ‘toxic culture’
					

Exclusive: Complaints include that too many turned a ‘blind eye’ to racist slurs and issue was not taken seriously




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 12, 2022)

two sheds said:


> So Mr Starmer, are you and your party racist?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I don’t know if Birmingham Labour is racist, but I do know that it’s fucking useless. Complacent, lazy, conservative and, over the last few years, regularly engaged in attempts to attack its own workforce. Far more interested in reproducing itself and developer led prestige projects than actually improving the lives of those who live here.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 18, 2022)

Lad.


----------



## Elpenor (Nov 18, 2022)

Looks like he’s awaiting a lap dance


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Nov 18, 2022)

brogdale said:


> Lad.
> 
> View attachment 351963



I'm going to go with 'has only conservative friends' tbh.



(Although I reckon most of them probably think he's a cunt).


----------



## ska invita (Nov 18, 2022)

Elpenor said:


> Looks like he’s awaiting a lap dance


couldnt stop myself


----------



## Raheem (Nov 18, 2022)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> (Although I reckon most of them probably think he's a cunt).


Why they like him, tbf.


----------



## Part 2 (Nov 18, 2022)

brogdale said:


> Lad.
> 
> View attachment 351963



Wearing Stone Island in an attempt too woo the far right. Probably got Spezials on out of shot.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 18, 2022)

smacker


----------



## teqniq (Nov 18, 2022)

President of Unison Expelled From Labour Party | Novara Media


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 18, 2022)

teqniq said:


> President of Unison Expelled From Labour Party | Novara Media



Jesus fucking Christ


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Nov 18, 2022)

teqniq said:


> President of Unison Expelled From Labour Party | Novara Media


Novara Media are just insincere, dishonest, self-serving, middle class, careerist cunts who only care about their career and status in the media. They criticise Labour a bit but they'll support Starmer come the general election. They've already been banging on about 'why we must support Labour' and 'have a general election.' Petit bourgeois liberal luvvies who can't be trusted and spout a load of bollocks.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 18, 2022)

AmateurAgitator said:


> Novara Media are just insincere, dishonest, self-serving, middle class, careerist cunts who only care about their career and status in the media.


Always a risk with careerist cunts


----------



## elbows (Nov 18, 2022)

He has accepted that the finance hole is £55 billion.









						Keir Starmer accepts £55bn 'black hole' calculation
					

Labour says it will use the same analysis of the public finances as the Conservatives to set future policy.



					www.bbc.co.uk
				




So I may as well point out this article from earlier this month about the likes of the Progressive Economy FOrum questioning the claim:









						Economists question 'black hole' in UK finances
					

The government's justification for upcoming UK tax rises and spending cuts is shaky, economists say.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## brogdale (Nov 18, 2022)

elbows said:


> He has accepted that the finance hole is £55 billion.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Of course he has; without it there wouldn't be go-to reason from maintaining tory austerity.


----------



## Sue (Nov 18, 2022)

teqniq said:


> President of Unison Expelled From Labour Party | Novara Media


That's a...bold move.


----------



## teqniq (Nov 18, 2022)

AmateurAgitator said:


> Novara Media are just insincere, dishonest, self-serving, middle class, careerist cunts who only care about their career and status in the media. They criticise Labour a bit but they'll support Starmer come the general election. They've already been banging on about 'why we must support Labour' and 'have a general election.' Petit bourgeois liberal luvvies who can't be trusted and spout a load of bollocks.


Clown. What have you got to say about the actual expulsion? ....anything?


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Nov 18, 2022)

teqniq said:


> Clown. What have you got to say about the actual expulsion? ....anything?


Knobhead. Nothing wrong with what I posted, up to me what I post innit. The expulsion? Couldn't give a monkeys really but it does highlight what Starmer is about - which should be blatantly obvious to everyone by now anyway.


----------



## teqniq (Nov 18, 2022)

AmateurAgitator said:


> Knobhead. Nothing wrong with what I posted, up to me what I post innit. The expulsion? Couldn't give a monkeys really but it does highlight what Starmer is about - which should be blatantly obvious to everyone by now anyway.


Mr. Knobhead to you.  Though I do agree with you re: Starmer


----------



## Shechemite (Nov 19, 2022)

Could be posted elsewhere (and probably has been) but seems appropriate here too 

Labour backs away from DWP deaths inquiry in meeting with families


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 19, 2022)

AmateurAgitator said:


> The expulsion? Couldn't give a monkeys really



Then maybe don't post about it.

Or anything else.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Nov 19, 2022)

SpookyFrank said:


> Then maybe don't post about it.
> 
> Or anything else.


Make me you little Hitler.


----------



## two sheds (Nov 19, 2022)

can we take a vote?


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Nov 19, 2022)

two sheds said:


> can we take a vote?


He didn't have to post a reply to me. I didn't even address him in the first place and he could easily have just ignored my post and interacted with or looked at other stuff on here.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Nov 19, 2022)

I would also say that I did make a fair point about the expulsion highlighting what Starmer is, and that it should be obvious what he's about (a shame I have to repeat that).


----------



## two sheds (Nov 19, 2022)

You're not eligible to vote though, it's been decided.


----------



## teqniq (Nov 19, 2022)

AmateurAgitator said:


> I would also say that I did make a fair point about the expulsion highlighting what Starmer is, and that it should be obvious what he's about (a shame I have to repeat that).


A fair point as well but you only made it because I observed that rather than comment on the actual news you used it as an opportunity to attack the publication that carried the story.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Nov 19, 2022)

teqniq said:


> you used it as an opportunity to attack the publication that carried the story.


I was saying what I thought of Novara Media, whats wrong with that all of a sudden?

Btw Spooky Frank has now succeeded in derailing this thread and making it about me  (could've just ignored me as I say, but no doubt he's trying to get me banned from the thread like the sad authoritarian he is).


----------



## teqniq (Nov 19, 2022)

AmateurAgitator said:


> I was saying what I thought of Novara Media, whats wrong with that all of a sudden?


There's nothing 'wrong' with having an opinion, everyone has them but what you think of Novara Media is irrelevant to the actual news itself.


----------



## Lorca (Nov 19, 2022)

Alexei Sayle went on an entertaining rant about starmer on the radio t'other day


----------



## Elpenor (Nov 19, 2022)

AmateurAgitator said:


> I was saying what I thought of Novara Media, whats wrong with that all of a sudden?
> 
> Btw Spooky Frank has now succeeded in derailing this thread and making it about me  (could've just ignored me as I say, but no doubt he's trying to get me banned from the thread like the sad authoritarian he is).


You can’t be expected to make every thread about yourself, man’s got to have a day off


----------



## Humberto (Nov 19, 2022)

Starmer's a lying cunt, isn't he?


----------



## Rob Ray (Nov 19, 2022)

Keir Starmer: I will abolish House of Lords to ‘restore trust in politics’
					

Exclusive: Labour leader plans a new elected chamber after accusing successive Tory governments of handing peerages to ‘lackeys and donors’




					www.theguardian.com
				




Isn't this just the perfect Starmerama policy? A dramatic-sounding but in practice minimal challenge to the status quo, which literally no-one will give a shit about enough to call him on as and when it fails to come to pass. The ruling class will shrug is shoulders, a few liberals will swoon for a bit, headline in the Graun, job done.


----------



## ska invita (Nov 20, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> Keir Starmer: I will abolish House of Lords to ‘restore trust in politics’
> 
> 
> Exclusive: Labour leader plans a new elected chamber after accusing successive Tory governments of handing peerages to ‘lackeys and donors’
> ...


100pc agree....lords is a talking shop, makes no difference to anything. By all means abolish it but no one will notice a difference


----------



## Karl Masks (Nov 20, 2022)

AmateurAgitator said:


> Novara Media are just insincere, dishonest, self-serving, middle class, careerist cunts who only care about their career and status in the media. *They criticise Labour a bit but they'll support Starmer come the general election*. They've already been banging on about 'why we must support Labour' and 'have a general election.' Petit bourgeois liberal luvvies who can't be trusted and spout a load of bollocks.


Don't you understand the point?


----------



## Riklet (Nov 20, 2022)

Lets have some poetry to cheer us all up...

 edit: already been posted!


----------



## brogdale (Nov 21, 2022)

_Come on the footballers!

_


----------



## ska invita (Nov 22, 2022)

next level faking it


----------



## Karl Masks (Nov 22, 2022)

What is this pose?


----------



## kabbes (Nov 22, 2022)

Pull my finger?


----------



## brogdale (Nov 22, 2022)

Was that our stop?


----------



## philosophical (Nov 22, 2022)

‘Your fucking bag is taking up a seat someone could use’


----------



## magneze (Nov 22, 2022)

His left wing hand is weirdly small.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 22, 2022)

so i see shammer has said he's going to make brexit work


----------



## DownwardDog (Nov 22, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> What is this pose?



Now, you don't forget. Two shots apiece in the head as you come out the door. Let's go.


----------



## DotCommunist (Nov 22, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> What is this pose?


so I said to the little cunt 'I want that alpaca fucking dead, understand me?'


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 22, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> What is this pose?


Next time this won't be my finger, it'll be a  44 magnum and will blow your head clean off. So don't forget the fucking snacks


----------



## TopCat (Nov 22, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> What is this pose?


Sunak will tremble when I point and say I am more efficient than he is.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 22, 2022)

TopCat said:


> Sunak will tremble when I point and say I am more efficient than he is.


That ezekiel 25 17 line worked in pulp fiction and it'll put that fucking squirt sunak in his place, just you wait and see


----------



## DaveCinzano (Nov 22, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> What is this pose?




"...And quite frankly it's down to us to rise above this and think maturely, and so that is why we're endorsing fully and unreservedly a pay freeze for the coastguard, and an end to the ring-fencing of funds to provide primary school breakfast clubs..."


----------



## Zhelezniakov (Nov 22, 2022)

That's not Starmers arm people, Its Magic Grandad on the outside clinging on for dear life.


----------



## Zhelezniakov (Nov 22, 2022)

If you look closely there's Marrow residue on the sleeve.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Nov 22, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> What is this pose?


Starmer's plan for the new-look 'Paper, Scissors, Stone'.


----------



## Johnny Vodka (Nov 22, 2022)

...struggling to come up with reasons for what differentiates him from a Tory.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 22, 2022)

Johnny Vodka said:


> ...struggling to come up with reasons for what differentiates him from a Tory.


he carries a labour party membership card


----------



## Johnny Vodka (Nov 22, 2022)

He's wearing a red tie... oh, wait, is he?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 22, 2022)

Johnny Vodka said:


> He's wearing a red tie... oh, wait, is he?


it was red but it's becoming blue


----------



## not-bono-ever (Nov 22, 2022)

Oh dear Keir


----------



## teqniq (Nov 22, 2022)

Oh dear:









						Nigel Farage Has Praised Keir Starmer's Speech On Immigration
					

"Starmer is now repeating the UKIP 2015 manifesto," the right winger claimed.




					www.huffingtonpost.co.uk


----------



## maomao (Nov 22, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> What is this pose?


...works it out with a pencil. Get it? I said he works it out with a pencil.


----------



## Karl Masks (Nov 22, 2022)

teqniq said:


> Oh dear:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well done Keith. Sensible policies for a sensible finger


----------



## ska invita (Nov 22, 2022)

teqniq said:


> Oh dear:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Mission accomplished


----------



## Johnny Vodka (Nov 22, 2022)

This is called The Spock... I think


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Nov 22, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> Well done Keith. Sensible policies for a sensible finger


And come the next general election you'll vote for him despite any complaints from you. No one will have to know about it but thats what you'll do coz thats what your sort of politics amounts to. People like you voted for Tony Blair aswell. Even 'left wing' Labour governments of the past had racist immigration policies btw.


----------



## tommers (Nov 24, 2022)

Been awarded Parliamentarian of the Year by the Spectator. So that's nice.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 24, 2022)

tommers said:


> Been awarded Parliamentarian of the Year by the Spectator. So that's nice.



Of course.


----------



## ska invita (Nov 24, 2022)




----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 24, 2022)

ska invita said:


>


Who's that on the right who hasn't got some bauble?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 24, 2022)

Is it just me or does shammer's rubicund face seem too red for an abstemious politician? Is he something of a gentleman of the afternoon, a tosspot if you will?


----------



## tommers (Nov 24, 2022)

Oh he actually won Politician of the Year. Rachel Reeves won Chancellor of the Year. Crowded field etc.


----------



## tommers (Nov 24, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> Who's that on the right who hasn't got some bauble?


Robert Buckland apparently.









						Spectator Parliamentarian of the Year 2022, in pictures
					

What a year in politics it has been. 2022 has seen five Education Secretaries, four Chancellors, three Prime Ministers but there is only one Spectator and so it was no surprise to see some of Westminster’s most familiar faces descend on London’s Rosewood Hotel. Ministers and their opposite...




					www.spectator.co.uk
				




That article reads like a piss take.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 24, 2022)

Imagine looking along that line and not wondering why he's there.


----------



## RedRedRose (Nov 24, 2022)

ska invita said:


>


He's not lost in that crowd is he?


----------



## ska invita (Nov 24, 2022)

Ringing endorsements from Nigel Farage and The Spectator plus the I've Kissed A Tory, and got Many Tory Friends stuff this week...took him a while to settle in but he's getting in his stride now


----------



## killer b (Nov 24, 2022)

Jeremy Corbyn won the Spectator Politician of the Year award in 2017 tbf (I don't imagine he went to pick it up tho)


----------



## ska invita (Nov 24, 2022)

killer b said:


> (I don't imagine he went to pick it up tho)


which is the key thing


----------



## killer b (Nov 24, 2022)

that isn't the key thing for a lot of people sharing this news story today, who seem to think the fact of the award means The Spectator approve of him or suchlike


----------



## ska invita (Nov 24, 2022)

he's socialising with them, drinks reception and all, we may disagree but many good old friends etc


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 27, 2022)

ska invita said:


>



He's surprisingly short. Positively Sunakian.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Nov 27, 2022)

He’s dreadful. Does he have any principles? On anything ?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 27, 2022)

SpookyFrank said:


> He's surprisingly short. Positively Sunakian.


Short on stature. Short on principles. Short on policies. Doesn't even have Clare Short to stand up for him.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Nov 27, 2022)

not-bono-ever said:


> He’s dreadful. Does he have any principles? On anything ?



I think the only thing he has been firm on is 'the alpaca must die'


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 27, 2022)

Puddy_Tat said:


> I think the only thing he has been firm on is 'the alpaca must die'


And that he'll be more efficient than the tories


----------



## magneze (Nov 27, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> And that he'll be more efficient than the tories


Is the alpaca dead?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Nov 27, 2022)

magneze said:


> Is the alpaca dead?


It's certainly ungulate


----------



## Serge Forward (Nov 27, 2022)

magneze said:


> Is the alpaca dead?


Yep. Proper murdered it.


----------



## magneze (Nov 27, 2022)

A quick search reveals that the alpaca is dead. 😭


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 27, 2022)

magneze said:


> Is the alpaca dead?


It will be


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Nov 27, 2022)

i think i've said before on this thread, but i'm hoping someone called Al Packer, and / or someone campaging in an alpaca costume, stands against him at the next election...


----------



## hitmouse (Nov 27, 2022)

Just done a quick check, and yes, the Spectator is still publishing articles by Spencer and McInnes' old boss Taki, so that's your man Starmer (along with Sunak, May et al) happily beaming below the logo of a magazine that published stuff that got reproduced by holocaust denial journals. I'm so glad that we got rid of that nasty Corbyn, so antisemitism isn't a thing anymore.


----------



## hitmouse (Nov 27, 2022)

_The creatures outside looked from cunt to cunt, and from cunt to cunt, and from cunt to cunt again..._


----------



## TopCat (Nov 27, 2022)

magneze said:


> A quick search reveals that the alpaca is dead. 😭


boo


----------



## brogdale (Nov 29, 2022)

The fist of the left (& Wales)


----------



## Karl Masks (Nov 29, 2022)

Come on the Striker!

(not those strikers!)


----------



## ska invita (Nov 29, 2022)

Welsh independence here we go


----------



## ska invita (Nov 29, 2022)

ska invita said:


> next level faking it
> 
> View attachment 352442


Hey guys you do know Wales are shit?
I'm in the pub, barely a weehay


----------



## bluescreen (Nov 30, 2022)

Heh. DM's time was up a while back but it looks like he's resetting the timer. 'At ease with Keir Starmer's leadership' - right.








						‘Not decided yet’: David Miliband hints at political comeback
					

Former Labour foreign secretary does not rule out return to UK politics before next election and urges greater EU cooperation




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## teqniq (Dec 3, 2022)

Starmer and the labour right may be regarding this as a pat on the back:



also....


----------



## tommers (Dec 3, 2022)

There's no stopping us if the Conservative MPs are going to vote for us as well.


----------



## Karl Masks (Dec 4, 2022)

How many days before Christ is born will Starmer cave in and reverse his pledge re: the House of Lords?


----------



## emanymton (Dec 4, 2022)

The house Lords thing is easy for them, it sounds radical, but does fuck all to address the structural issues in society. Of course in the end it will still be a step too far.


----------



## PR1Berske (Dec 5, 2022)




----------



## oryx (Dec 5, 2022)

PR1Berske said:


>



There was a piece in The Guardian not that long ago saying that rival Labour candidates were reluctant to stand in that seat. 

Upthread I think - if not I will try and dig it out.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Dec 5, 2022)

The camera was just there by chance I'm sure 



Revisionism exposed for the world to see


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 5, 2022)

Jeff Robinson said:


> The camera was just there by chance I'm sure
> 
> 
> 
> Revisionism exposed for the world to see



shammer in shamming shock


----------



## stavros (Dec 5, 2022)

Jeff Robinson said:


> The camera was just there by chance I'm sure



Loving the sports-casual look.


----------



## BristolEcho (Dec 5, 2022)

stavros said:


> Loving the sports-casual look.


Find these shots embarrassing. No one actually takes pictures of themselves watching football like that. They could just post about the game and make it about the team, but it's all about them and for show. Weirdos.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 5, 2022)

Jeff Robinson said:


> The camera was just there by chance I'm sure
> 
> 
> 
> Revisionism exposed for the world to see



He's even a crap barrister - first rule lawyers should know is not to lie. You can avoid the question, answer another question than asked, refuse to answer but you shouldn't lie.


----------



## Karl Masks (Dec 5, 2022)

two sheds said:


> He's even a crap barrister - first rule lawyers should know is not to lie. You can avoid the question, answer another question than asked, refuse to answer but you shouldn't lie.


Is he watching the game on Moonbase from UFO?


----------



## ska invita (Dec 6, 2022)

Keir Starmer says there is a case for GPS tagging some asylum seekers
					

A coalition of charities warned a month ago that the policy amounts to ‘psychological torture’




					www.independent.co.uk
				



tag asylum applicants whilst claim processing
possible selective quoting from the Indie but still


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Dec 6, 2022)

ska invita said:


> Keir Starmer says there is a case for GPS tagging some asylum seekers
> 
> 
> A coalition of charities warned a month ago that the policy amounts to ‘psychological torture’
> ...



Dog whistle stuff isn't it. Well more of a dog foghorn. 

I don't think he'd seriously consider doing it fwiw, but he wants to put 'I also hate foreigners' out there.


----------



## killer b (Dec 6, 2022)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> Dog whistle stuff isn't it. Well more of a dog foghorn.
> 
> I don't think he'd seriously consider doing it fwiw, but he wants to put 'I also hate foreigners' out there.


I don't think there's much there tbh. He's responding to a question about a tory policy, not announcing some new Labour policy himself - and doesn't seem to be suggesting it should be expanded beyond how it's currently used (apparently they've been tagging people awaiting the result of their asylum application since 2004). I think he's just tried to answer the question in a way which shuts it down without really answering it, before moving on to how Labour would deal with the same issue.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 6, 2022)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> I don't think he'd seriously consider doing it fwiw


oh, i think he certainly would


----------



## Serge Forward (Dec 6, 2022)

Yep, he definitely would. Starmer is fucking vile.

Thinking back to home secretaries under the Blair government. Totally indistinguishable from the worst right wing tory scum.


----------



## teqniq (Dec 6, 2022)

killer b said:


> I don't think there's much there tbh. He's responding to a question about a tory policy, not announcing some new Labour policy himself - and doesn't seem to be suggesting it should be expanded beyond how it's currently used* (apparently they've been tagging people awaiting the result of their asylum application since 2004). *I think he's just tried to answer the question in a way which shuts it down without really answering it, before moving on to how Labour would deal with the same issue.


This is news to me and I support a lot of asylum seekers. The only person I know of who was tagged is someone who the police regarded as a potential criminal/involved in an ongoing criminal investigation.


----------



## killer b (Dec 6, 2022)

teqniq said:


> This is news to me and I support a lot of asylum seekers. The only person I know of who was tagged is someone who the police regarded as a potential criminal/involved in an ongoing criminal investigation.


I'm only going on the information provided in the newspaper article no-one else seems to have bothered reading past the clickbait headline


----------



## killer b (Dec 6, 2022)

This is the precise quote: 

_The policy of using electronic tags to track asylum seekers was first introduced in the UK by the last Labour government, whose 2004 Asylum and Immigration Bill included provisions to allow the tags to be used on people released from immigration detention.

The current government has launched a pilot to expand their use under a Home Office “electronic monitoring expansion pilot” – which is currently subject to a legal challenge._

Maybe people under criminal investigation are the cases Starmer thinks there's a case for tagging? We don't know because it was clearly just him deflecting a bullshit question before moving on to something he wanted to talk about.


----------



## killer b (Dec 6, 2022)

(no time for Starmer, but criticise him for real things please)


----------



## teqniq (Dec 6, 2022)

killer b said:


> This is the precise quote:
> 
> _The policy of using electronic tags to track asylum seekers was first introduced in the UK by the last Labour government, whose 2004 Asylum and Immigration Bill included provisions to allow the tags to be used on people released from immigration detention.
> 
> ...


They can only really justify it if the individual is part of an ongoing investigation. I know of people who have been held in immigration detention and who are not tagged.


----------



## steveseagull (Dec 6, 2022)

Here we go. Countries that currently ban VPNs: China, Russia, Belarus, North Korea, Oman, the UAE....


----------



## ruffneck23 (Dec 6, 2022)

steveseagull said:


> Here we go. Countries that currently ban VPNs: China, Russia, Belarus, North Korea, Oman, the UAE....


----------



## killer b (Dec 6, 2022)

steveseagull said:


> Here we go. Countries that currently ban VPNs: China, Russia, Belarus, North Korea, Oman, the UAE....



have you read the article you've linked to?


----------



## Chz (Dec 6, 2022)

killer b said:


> have you read the article you've linked to?


I realise it's just a "asking OFCOM to look into it", but it's still funny from a practical point of view. A lot of noise and effort around something that will have no effect whatsoever. Oh no. I will have slightly higher latency connecting to a VPN in France or Czechia instead. Boo fucking hoo.


----------



## steveseagull (Dec 6, 2022)

killer b said:


> have you read the article you've linked to?


Aye it is mad Labour boomer shit.


----------



## SysOut (Dec 6, 2022)

steveseagull said:


> boomer shit


What does that mean?


----------



## Dystopiary (Dec 6, 2022)

steveseagull said:


> Here we go. Countries that currently ban VPNs: China, Russia, Belarus, North Korea, Oman, the UAE....



In case anyone doesn't want to click on the Independent:

archive.ph



> Labour’s frontbench confirmed to _The Independent _on Tuesday that it was supporting Ms Champion's amendment. Speaking for the opposition in the Commons on Monday afternoon Shadow digital minister Alex Davies-Jones said the unamended bill had "gaps" that needed closing.
> "I was pleased to see that my honourable friend the member for Rotherham (Sarah Champion) had tabled new clause 54, which asks the Government to formally consider the impact that the use of virtual private networks will have on Ofcom’s ability to enforce its powers," she said.
> "This touches on the issue of future-proofing, which Labour has raised repeatedly in debates on the Bill."



Fuck the Labour Party.


----------



## SysOut (Dec 6, 2022)

By definition, people who live in a free country don't need VPN.


----------



## maomao (Dec 6, 2022)

SysOut said:


> By definition, people who live in a free country don't need VPN.


That's nonsense. A country can be generally regarded as a free one without permitting purchase of drugs, the sale of stolen credit card details or certain kinds of pornography, all of which a vpn could assist with.


----------



## SysOut (Dec 6, 2022)

maomao said:


> generally regarded as a free


But I said "by definition".
I'm criticising the way the word "free" is thrown around, btw.
A lot of people don't realise to what extent they're in a cradle-to-death propaganda bubble.


----------



## emanymton (Dec 6, 2022)

killer b said:


> have you read the article you've linked to?


I don't blame them if they didn't, trying to read anything on the independent website is a nightmare.


----------



## SysOut (Dec 6, 2022)

emanymton said:


> I don't blame them if they didn't, trying to read anything on the independent website is a nightmare.


I always read an archive from the site. Much easier to read.
I wonder if anyone has told them that their webmaster is a lump of shit?


----------



## stethoscope (Dec 6, 2022)

SysOut said:


> What does that mean?


Tbf, its more 'generation x shit' given the age of a lot of parliament front benches now, but I get the point about moral panic around those 'young people using VPNs to circumvent things..'
I don't know if its so much about age (although as generation x myself I'm becoming increasingly surprised at some of the reactionary takes our generation are getting into which I didn't expect) rather than the utter lack of understanding of how controlling what people can do/access on the internet differs from more traditional forms of censorship. Hence, it becomes quite powerless as a political demand really, "we must seek ofcom to look into this".


----------



## Johnny Vodka (Dec 7, 2022)

maomao said:


> That's nonsense. A country can be generally regarded as a free one without permitting purchase of drugs, the sale of stolen credit card details or certain kinds of pornography, all of which a vpn could assist with.



Dunno.  Who wants to verify who they are every time they look at porn?  I also think being able to purchase drugs other than alcohol absolutely should be part of a free society.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 7, 2022)

SysOut said:


> By definition, people who live in a free country don't need VPN.


Bollocks. If you pretend to be in the USA then you have access to a wider range of Google books downloads, for example, due to their differing copyright laws. This isn't likely to change with being in your notional free country


----------



## teqniq (Dec 8, 2022)

Yuck.









						Starmer plans venture capitalists tax break as Labour to 'partner with business'
					

The Labour leader parked his tanks firmly on the Tories' lawn with a speech to 350 business leaders in London's Canary Wharf - and a report that recommends expanding tax break schemes for wealthy investors




					www.mirror.co.uk


----------



## ska invita (Dec 8, 2022)

teqniq said:


> Yuck.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


also
And it would ask pension funds and banks to put some of their money into venture capital - to help close a reported £16billion gap between the UK and US.

---thats our money being invested in any old tech bubble nonsense. i wouldnt. as if our pensions arent at risk enough


----------



## teqniq (Dec 8, 2022)

ska invita said:


> also
> And it would ask pension funds and banks to put some of their money into venture capital - to help close a reported £16billion gap between the UK and US.
> 
> ---thats our money being invested in any old tech bubble nonsense. i wouldnt. as if our pensions arent at risk enough


Reeves is also refusing to say whether Labour would make nurses a better pay offer. What actually is the point of Labour anymore?


----------



## Karl Masks (Dec 8, 2022)

Labour continue to be astoundingly shit, but I just cannot countenance Tory return at the next GE. People can say it's just an argument rooted in feels not reals but what we've got right now cannot continue. It just can't. Having to watch the pennies like never before during the coldest part of winter with inflation still rising and winter barely begun. The daily gaslighting from the likes of racist 30p Lee, the lunatic Braverman, bully boy Raab, and all the rest of these monstrosities. What choice isn't shit?


----------



## two sheds (Dec 8, 2022)

I did start wondering the other day (after watching the Labour Al Jazeera videos admittedly) - what if he turned out to be actually worse than the tories?


----------



## Karl Masks (Dec 8, 2022)

two sheds said:


> I did start wondering the other day (after watching the Labour Al Jazeera videos admittedly) - what if he turned out to be actually worse than the tories?


I'll be honest. I'll take that chance. At least I can then laugh at the centrists. Ha ha, I'll say.


----------



## maomao (Dec 8, 2022)

two sheds said:


> I did start wondering the other day (after watching the Labour Al Jazeera videos admittedly) - what if he turned out to be actually worse than the tories?


What do you mean 'turned out'?

The only way I'll be voting Labour is if my neighbour's the candidate again. But she's a bit of a lefty so it's unlikely.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Dec 8, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> what we've got right now cannot continue.


It will continue with a Labour govt, voted for by spineless mugs like you. You'll be voting for a party whose leader thinks 'theres too many foreigners in the NHS' for a start and who are just as authoritarian as the tories. You might as well be a peasant in feudal times on the side of a 'benevolent Baron' or something. But why you'd vote for out and out flag-shagging racists who are so eager to punish the poor I don't know. Electoralism is weird and this is where its taken us.

I don't know, maybe you're just trolling.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 8, 2022)

And it will worsen with a tory govt, because "spineless mugs" like you don't vote.

Who should people vote for? I'd say pretty well anyone who has a chance of unseating a tory. 

I don't know, maybe you're just trolling.


----------



## Serge Forward (Dec 8, 2022)

The Tories are openly vicious while Labour will try and dress their viciousness up a bit. So vote for whoever you like.


----------



## maomao (Dec 8, 2022)

Johnson was a better Prime Minister than Sunak is or Starmer will be. There's a fag paper between Sunak and Starmer.


----------



## redsquirrel (Dec 8, 2022)

I'm pretty ambivalent about voting, for me it is largely an apolitical action.

But If one is going to make a political argument for anyone but the Tories and a progressive alliance then the logical consequence of such a position in the current context _*is*_ Starmer, it is a Labour Party as it currently is, a Labour Party that will attack strikers and migrants, it is support for liberalism and opposition to socialism (even social democracy).

This_ Starmer is terrible! _but _You must vote Labour/Lib Dem_ is just political incoherent drivel


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Dec 8, 2022)

maomao said:


> There's a fag paper between Sunak and Starmer.


Yep, two cheeks of the same arse but unfortunately theres a definite double standard going on with some people.


----------



## teqniq (Dec 8, 2022)

More dire shite apparently asked about it at the meeting with business people that I posted about upthread:









						Labour refuses to promise repeal of planned Tory anti-strike laws
					

Keir Starmer calls proposed legislation ‘wrong’, but does not commit to scrapping it if it becomes law




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Serge Forward (Dec 8, 2022)

No surprise there then.


----------



## Karl Masks (Dec 8, 2022)

maomao said:


> Johnson was a better Prime Minister than Sunak is or Starmer will be. There's a fag paper between Sunak and Starmer.


Johnson killed tens of thousands almost including himself. He repeateedly lied to Parliament. He's a thug and a bully. He's responsible for the deadlock in Northern Ireland (even though the DUP could decide to stop being cunts). He let children starve twice during a pandemic. 

Yes the differences between them are wafer thin. But you're just wrong in claiming he was better. That's just not true. Sunak may turn out to be worse, but at this point we've seen all he can offer. He's a lame duck and a dead man walking.

Starmer is a dismal authoritarian for sure. But there are material differences in what they are promising and what the Tories are delivering. For example, Labour pledged to end the five week wait for UC. Will they keep that pledge? Who knows, but the Tories are never going to abolish it. 

We don't live in an ideal world


----------



## Karl Masks (Dec 8, 2022)

redsquirrel said:


> I'm pretty ambivalent about voting, for me it is largely an apolitical action.
> 
> But If one is going to make a political argument for anyone but the Tories and a progressive alliance then the logical consequence of such a position in the current context _*is*_ Starmer, it is a Labour Party as it currently is, a Labour Party that will attack strikers and migrants, it is support for liberalism and opposition to socialism (even social democracy).
> 
> This_ Starmer is terrible! _but _You must vote Labour/Lib Dem_ is just political incoherent drivel


how so?


----------



## Serge Forward (Dec 9, 2022)

See the middle paragraph from redsquirrel. Think of a dot-to-dot puzzle.


----------



## redsquirrel (Dec 9, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> how so?


Because, as much as some liberals may wish it we aren't just isolated individuals in our own little boxes, politics is social.

A politics built around a progressive alliance or on a blank check for Labour empowers the liberalism of the party. The LP (and its equivalent in other countries) know it just has to be not _quite _blue, and it can still count on the support of 'the left' - to paraphrase Mandelson, where else are they going to go?
Starmer, like New Labour, is the logical and practical outcome of Anti-Tory politics.

I know members of the Labour Party that I like and respect, they work hard in workplaces and communities for workers. But however much they dislike Starner, however much they argue for other positions, they are (to a greater or lesser degree) supporting attacks on workers.
I can understand the arguments for the lesser evil, that it is better pissing out than pissing in, etc but there has to be some context applied otherwise one will end up supporting any attack on workers so long as there is another group out that is slightly worse (the logic which takes you to 'vote Jobbik not Fidesz').


----------



## maomao (Dec 9, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> Johnson killed tens of thousands almost including himself. He repeateedly lied to Parliament. He's a thug and a bully. He's responsible for the deadlock in Northern Ireland (even though the DUP could decide to stop being cunts). He let children starve twice during a pandemic.


The only reason you can say this about Johnson and not Starmer is that Johnson was in government and Starmer hassn't been yet. Johnson's crimes are in the past and Starmer's in the future.


----------



## kabbes (Dec 9, 2022)

I can think of one way in which Starmer is clearly and considerably worse than Johnson for the political project I am motivated to see happen.

Johnson’s social policies were no worse than those of his predecessors, from a run-of-the-mill politics perspective.  Cameron and Osborne brought austerity politics, focussed on squeezing the poor and gutting public services.  May was a hardline authoritarian, also implicated in the Cameron austerity.  Johnson wasn’t interested in any of that.  So he didn’t represent any particular lurch right, at least fiscally speaking.

By contrast, Starmer’s approach to leading the Labour Party has been to abandon anything remotely socially democratic from the Corbyn manifestos.  He represents a massive jump to the right for the party on all dimensions — authoritarian, sure, but also economically.

From that perspective, a vote for Starmer is directly a vote for more right-wing politics.  It’s an endorsement of the change he represents not just for the country, but for the make-up of our political spectrum.  A vote for Johnson, paradoxically, was not necessarily an endorsement of more right-wing politics; it all depended on where in the country your vote came from.  People in the Tory heartlands of the South-East, for example, were not representing a shift to the right when they voted Johnson.   

As for Sunak — too early to say, really, what he is compared with Johnson.


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 9, 2022)

maomao said:


> The only reason you can say this about Johnson and not Starmer is that Johnson was in government and Starmer hassn't been yet. Johnson's crimes are in the past and Starmer's in the future.


Succinctly put. I agree.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 9, 2022)

maomao said:


> The only reason you can say this about Johnson and not Starmer is that Johnson was in government and Starmer hassn't been yet. Johnson's crimes are in the past and Starmer's in the future.


Sure shammer's still done loads of shit things even if they're not formally crimes


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Dec 9, 2022)

Got to agree with redsquirrel here. I'm coming from a much less radical place tbh - I'd probably lap up some soft left social democracy if it was on offer - but the 'vote for anyone but the Tories' logic ultimately leads to supporting any old shit doesn't it, as long as it has a red badge on it. I did vote Labour under Corbyn but I'm not voting for Starmer on a 'make things worse a bit more slowly' basis.


----------



## Karl Masks (Dec 9, 2022)

maomao said:


> The only reason you can say this about Johnson and not Starmer is that Johnson was in government and Starmer hassn't been yet. Johnson's crimes are in the past and Starmer's in the future.


No doubt, but despite everything I think it's a stretch to assert he'd be worse. But I didn't make that assertion so it seems weird to criticise my response given that.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Dec 9, 2022)

The look on Starmer's face when he realises his interlocutor would make a better leader of the labour party than him


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 10, 2022)

teqniq said:


> Yuck.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Every time you think he can't get worse...

Fucking 'venture capital' FFS. What about actual productivity? Why should we subsidise gambling with other people's money? Why should we emulate the US when the US is a complete basket case?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 10, 2022)

maomao said:


> What do you mean 'turned out'?
> 
> The only way I'll be voting Labour is if my neighbour's the candidate again. But she's a bit of a lefty so it's unlikely.



Haven't you got that _ alleged_ rapist Tory bloke for an MP ATM?


----------



## maomao (Dec 10, 2022)

SpookyFrank said:


> Haven't you got that _ alleged_ rapist Tory bloke for an MP ATM?


One of them. He did disappear for a few months but seems to be back now. Not sure if he's back in the commons but he did vote (for Johnson I'd imagine) in Johnson's party confidence vote back in June. His alleged victim (former Conservative leader of the council who had worked in the MP's office on work experience which is when the alleged incident allegedly took place) has meanwhile disappeared from public life (the Tories no longer control the council) so maybe he's confident he's got away with it. He (the MP) gets a lot of abuse about it when he posts to the local Facebook group which makes me think he won't do quite so well in the next election but we'll see.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 10, 2022)

Yes I think I'm coming round to the 'lets not vote' view. I mean, how bad could another tory government be?


----------



## ska invita (Dec 10, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Yes I think I'm coming round to the 'lets not vote' view. I mean, how bad could another tory government be?


do you live in a swing seat? If no then why bother


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 10, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Yes I think I'm coming round to the 'lets not vote' view. I mean, how bad could another tory government be?



Another tory government is nailed on already, that's why I'm not voting.

e2a: Also the quite good local MP is retiring and Labour have picked some nonentity flown in from London to replace him.


----------



## kabbes (Dec 10, 2022)

ska invita said:


> do you live in a swing seat? If no then why bother


This is the key, I think. I live in a seat that the Tories win by a clear 20%+ and Labour struggle to make their deposit. So I have the luxury of deciding whether or not I vote for Labour based on pure principles. I wanted to show that I favoured the direction they moved in by having Corbyn.  I now want to show that I disapprove of them getting in Starmer. People like me in this constituency can actually make a difference to Labour (ie will they get their deposit back?) but we’re not going to make any difference at all to who actually becomes MP.  If I lived in a Labour marginal, I do agree that it would be a tougher choice to make.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 10, 2022)

Truro so 4,000 majority and yes a swing seat, the candidate is Jennifer Forbes who supported Corbyn so fuck knows how long she'll last. 

I thought the argument wasn't whether we vote in swing seats though, but whether someone with socialist principles should vote at all with Starmer leading the party. While I do understand that, I don't understand the contempt for people who'll vote to keep the tories out. 

Yes fair point by kabbes


----------



## two sheds (Dec 10, 2022)

I mean, if Mogg and his mates have his way the next tory government will be bringing in abortion restrictions along US Republican lines. But I'm knocking on 70 now so that's hardly likely to affect me so hey ...


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 10, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Truro so 4,000 majority and yes a swing seat, the candidate is Jennifer Forbes who supported Corbyn so fuck knows how long she'll last.
> 
> I thought the argument wasn't whether we vote in swing seats though, but whether someone with socialist principles should vote at all with Starmer leading the party. While I do understand that, I don't understand the contempt for people who'll vote to keep the tories out.
> 
> Yes fair point by kabbes



With a bunch of shit options on the table, I wouldn't criticise someone else's judgement of which is the least shit.

If you've got a particularly awful tory MP (so, any tory MP) and see a shot at getting rid of him by voting labour, go for it. The justification there would be the same as my justification for not voting; namely that the big picture doesn't really change either way.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 10, 2022)

SpookyFrank said:


> With a bunch of shit options on the table, I wouldn't criticise someone else's judgement of which is the least shit.
> 
> If you've got a particularly awful tory MP (so, any tory MP) and see a shot of getting rid of him by voting labour, go for it. The justification there would be the same as my justification for not voting; namely that the big picture doesn't really change either way.


Yes to an extent, although we can be sure that the right wing voters will be turning out, and that's what they'd love people to think in general. I just wonder whether that road leads to a US style Republican government because that's the way tories will be heading if they keep getting voted in.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 10, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Truro so 4,000 majority and yes a swing seat, the candidate is Jennifer Forbes who supported Corbyn so fuck knows how long she'll last.
> 
> I thought the argument wasn't whether we vote in swing seats though, but whether someone with socialist principles should vote at all with Starmer leading the party. While I do understand that, I don't understand the contempt for people who'll vote to keep the tories out.
> 
> Yes fair point by kabbes


actually having a good candidate to vote for is another factor Ive never had the pleasure of


----------



## prunus (Dec 10, 2022)

I am, and have always been, as one could probably easily guess from my posts on this thread, an anyone but the tories advocate, but I have to admit that my resolve is weakening with one heart sinking pronouncement from Starmer after another. I find this situation very depressing, but it still believe that another Tory victory will be disastrous for this country and its citizens (barring a small percentage of psychopathic very wealthy people). I find this outlook depressing.

So I come to ask this thread, what’s the alternative?  Or is it simply, starmer equals tories, therefore tories in anyway, we’re all fucked, so give up?


----------



## two sheds (Dec 10, 2022)

kabbes said:


> This is the key, I think. I live in a seat that the Tories win by a clear 20%+ and Labour struggle to make their deposit. So I have the luxury of deciding whether or not I vote for Labour based on pure principles. I wanted to show that I favoured the direction they moved in by having Corbyn. * I now want to show that I disapprove of them getting in Starmer.* People like me in this constituency can actually make a difference to Labour (ie will they get their deposit back?) but we’re not going to make any difference at all to who actually becomes MP.  If I lived in a Labour marginal, I do agree that it would be a tougher choice to make.


It doesn't really negate the point you're making but I even wonder whether a poor turnout in seats Labour have no chance of getting will give that message - Starmer's as likely to think it means Labour needs to move even further to the right to attract all those swing voters.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 10, 2022)

depends who is on the ballot but at present in most cases voting green is the only way to signal that labour have lost a vote to their left 
pathetic and humiliating voting tactics aside:


prunus said:


> So I come to ask this thread, what’s the alternative?  Or is it simply, starmer equals tories, therefore tories in anyway, we’re all fucked, so give up?


the only alternative is to build power outside the political parties which at present is a pretty barren landscape. actively supporting strikes is probably the lowest hanging fruit on that score


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Dec 10, 2022)

two sheds said:


> I thought the argument wasn't whether we vote in swing seats though, but whether someone with socialist principles should vote at all with Starmer leading the party. While I do understand that, I don't understand the contempt for people who'll vote to keep the tories out.



Aside from a few 'revolution only' types the contempt tends to come the other way IMO. Centrist types tend to get absolutely furious at the suggestion some soft right version of Labour isn't worth voting for.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 10, 2022)

fair comment


----------



## Karl Masks (Dec 10, 2022)

kabbes said:


> I can think of one way in which Starmer is clearly and considerably worse than Johnson for the political project I am motivated to see happen.
> 
> Johnson’s social policies were no worse than those of his predecessors, from a run-of-the-mill politics perspective.  Cameron and Osborne brought austerity politics, focussed on squeezing the poor and gutting public services.  May was a hardline authoritarian, also implicated in the Cameron austerity.  Johnson wasn’t interested in any of that.  So he didn’t represent any particular lurch right, at least fiscally speaking.
> 
> ...


he was as much responsible, given he was a covid denying crank brexiteer chancellor. Remember his comment about 'fixing' the funding for local areas?


----------



## Karl Masks (Dec 10, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Yes I think I'm coming round to the 'lets not vote' view. I mean, how bad could another tory government be?


the only question is do you think Labour will be worse. I don't think they will be. Even new labour imprived the NHS compared to where it was - despite pfi, alan milburn and patricia hewitt. Those microns of difference are all we have to play with. The NHS cannot survive under the Tories. Brexit will never be properly addressed or resolved (somehow) without a change in government because the EU just won't deal with the Tories


----------



## two sheds (Dec 10, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> the only question is do you think Labour will be worse. I don't think they will be. Even new labour imprived the NHS compared to where it was - despite pfi, alan milburn and patricia hewitt. Those microns of difference are all we have to play with. The NHS cannot survive under the Tories. Brexit will never be properly addressed or resolved (somehow) without a change in government because the EU just won't deal with the Tories


Indeed, I was thinking of some of the policies following the Republican model that the tories are likely to introduce if they're encouraged enough to be voted back in: 

Perhaps go for wholesale selloff of the NHS, start restricting abortion rights if people like Raab and Rees Mogg get their way, avoid any chance of a future leftward move by government with stricter ID voting requirements, emulate Musk's approach to the Civil Service with wholesale sackings because they're all unnecessary really, ban strikes altogether, rid us of the strangling H&S and other red tape, push through a more market friendly version of Truss' tax cutting for the rich, build over the green belt with developer friendly low-tax areas, start up a few more coal mines, stop all these inefficient subsidies of railways and councils, get rid of expensive state pensions ...

As bad as Labour are I can't see them going that far while I can see elements of the tory party doing that if they wrest power from the wishy washy moderates we have now.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Dec 10, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Indeed, I was thinking of some of the policies following the Republican model that the tories are likely to introduce if they're encouraged enough to be voted back in:
> 
> Perhaps go for wholesale selloff of the NHS, start restricting abortion rights if people like Raab and Rees Mogg get their way, avoid any chance of a future leftward move by government with stricter ID voting requirements, emulate Musk's approach to the Civil Service with wholesale sackings because they're all unnecessary really, ban strikes altogether, rid us of the strangling H&S and other red tape, push through a more market friendly version of Truss' tax cutting for the rich, build over the green belt with developer friendly low-tax areas, start up a few more coal mines, stop all these inefficient subsidies of railways and councils, get rid of expensive state pensions ...
> 
> As bad as Labour are I can't see them going that far while I can see elements of the tory party doing that if they wrest power from the wishy washy moderates we have now.


Lets vote Mussolini, he's not as bad as that awful Hitler chap.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 10, 2022)

Indeed, lets not vote at all, get that stirring Hitler chap in power. He'll sort out the problems.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Dec 10, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Indeed, lets not vote at all, get that stirring Hitler chap in power. He'll sort out the problems.


Basically you're way too dependent on politicians.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 10, 2022)

And you're not?  Nothing they do affects you at all


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Dec 10, 2022)

Deleted. point already made up- thread.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Dec 10, 2022)

two sheds said:


> And you're not?  Nothing they do affects you at all


I'm not as dependent as some and and not by my own choice. Just look at where electoralism and politicians has led us.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 10, 2022)

Just look where voting the tories in has led us.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Dec 10, 2022)

I'll probably vote Green. Not because they have a hope of getting in. Not because I believe in parliamentary politics. Largely because the more votes they get the more our political discourse will take notice of ecological issues.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Dec 10, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Indeed, lets not vote at all, get that stirring Hitler chap in power. He'll sort out the problems.


Nothing wrong at all with not voting for a racist and anti-working class party that'll probably be sexist to working class women  in power aswell. When grass roots, autonomous alternatives are needed instead its the decent thing to do.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 10, 2022)

Unless not voting actually puts the racist and anti-working class party into power.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Dec 10, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Unless not voting actually puts the racist and anti-working class party into power.


You seem to be intentionally missing the point.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 10, 2022)

As do you


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Dec 10, 2022)

And does anyone really expect the likes of Starmer to do anything meaningful about the energy price rises and inflation?

In any case we atleast need autonomous alternatives from below to hold politicians to account.


----------



## kabbes (Dec 10, 2022)

For me, I should have learned my lesson about lesser-evilism when I knew what Blair was like but voted for him anyway in his second election.  But I was only 24 and so I didn't take the lesson to heart.  Instead, I stuck with lesser-evilism and voted for the Liberals in my Lib vs Tory constituencies.  Then when the Liberals got enough MPs to make a difference, they went into coalition with the Tories anyway.  That time, I really did learn my lesson and swore that never again would I vote for somebody I disliked just because I disliked the other guy more.  It makes me feel shit and then it doesn't actually help anyway.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 10, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Unless not voting actually puts the racist and anti-working class party into power.



Which one is the non-racist, pro-working class party again?


----------



## two sheds (Dec 10, 2022)

The one in Amateur Agitator's example  

Mind you he doesn't think it really matters whether Trump gets in or not next time in the US, so we're unlikely to agree on much.


----------



## Chz (Dec 10, 2022)

I live in a swing seat, but it's LD/Tory so I may just bring a lighter and burn the ballot. I say that as someone who actually voted for the previous LD MP as a decent enough local MP (he knew how to answer mail, show up, etc., which many of my previous MPs never did), but he's retired now so there's nothing to drive me that way.


----------



## redsquirrel (Dec 10, 2022)

prunus said:


> So I come to ask this thread, what’s the alternative?  Or is it simply, starmer equals tories, therefore tories in anyway, we’re all fucked, so give up?


The alternative is trying to re-build the labour movement. And of course that is hard, of course it is difficult but that really is the only option on the table for anyone with any sort of class politics.

The gains workers have obtained were not obtained because of the largess of the Labour Party (or any other party), they were gained through working class solidarity and class politics. Yes the LP might have passed bills in Westminster but it was the labour movement that won those victories. Even at its most radical the LP was always only (part of) the parliamentary wing of the labour movement.

Politics does not end with voting, it starts from there.
We are seeing more industrial action than for decades. There are community groups forming, there is a lot of action on environmental issues. There is no shortage of alternatives to voting red/orange/yellow/green and then doing little but going on about how awful the Tories and Starmer are.


----------



## Karl Masks (Dec 10, 2022)

AmateurAgitator said:


> Lets vote Mussolini, he's not as bad as that awful Hitler chap.


You've just shot down your own argument


----------



## redsquirrel (Dec 10, 2022)

And while I'm not a supporter of electoralism it would be a strange reading that did not conclude that part of the shift of the Democratic Party left from Obama to Biden was not driven by the fact that the Democrats realised that while they needed swing voters they also needed to get their base out.
That the party did have to throw some meat to the base if they wanted to win. Because voters were not writing them a totally blank cheque is one the reasons why they have shifted.


----------



## Karl Masks (Dec 10, 2022)

AmateurAgitator said:


> And does anyone really expect the likes of Starmer to do anything meaningful about the energy price rises and inflation?
> 
> In any case we atleast need autonomous alternatives from below to hold politicians to account.


Well the key word is meaningful. What do you consider as such?

I believe Starmer would do something. Again because it serves capital. You don't have to believe he's a saint to realise capital wants a stable productive work force. That's why we get reforms. Even though we'd rather end capitalism, I'll take reforms as a transitional gain. Not the end product. 

He did suggest a windfall tax, the tories? nothing.

That's your choice.

We can agree we need autonomous alternatives. So when will they happen?


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Dec 10, 2022)

AmateurAgitator said:


> And does anyone really expect the likes of Starmer to do anything meaningful



no


----------



## Karl Masks (Dec 10, 2022)

redsquirrel said:


> The alternative is trying to re-build the labour movement. And of course that is hard, of course it is difficult but that really is the only option on the table for anyone with any sort of class politics.
> 
> The gains workers have obtained were not obtained because of the largess of the Labour Party (or any other party), they were gained through working class solidarity and class politics. Yes the LP might have passed bills in Westminster but it was the labour movement that won those victories. Even at its most radical the LP was always only (part of) the parliamentary wing of the labour movement.
> 
> ...


I agree, but in the meantime there will be elections. Do we ignore them?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 10, 2022)

When and where was the election in which people got to choose between Mussolini and Hitler?


----------



## redsquirrel (Dec 10, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> I agree, but in the meantime there will be elections. Do we ignore them?


What does that mean? Ignore them how? Are you planning to canvas for a party? Donate to a party? Organise? What? 

Or are you just reducing politics to voting? I've already said I think voting is pretty much apolitical. I can't imagine I'll bother voting, but I'm not going chest prod others that decide to.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 10, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> He did suggest a windfall tax, the tories? nothing.



He suggested it, and will fuck it off the first chance he gets as he has every other vaguely progressive policy he's ever pretended to support.

And fuck 'windfall tax' anyway. How about just 'tax' which corporations have to pay _all the time. _You know, like workers have to pay tax all the time not just when they've got a load of extra cash lying around. Or how about not running essential utilities for profit in the first place, so that the question of taxing those profits doesn't even come up. 

The public should not be excited about the prospect of clawing back 1% of what was stolen from them, and having it spent repairing 1% of the damage the thieves did to get it.


----------



## Karl Masks (Dec 10, 2022)

SpookyFrank said:


> He suggested it, and will fuck it off the first chance he gets as he has every other vaguely progressive policy he's ever pretended to support.
> 
> And fuck 'windfall tax' anyway. How about just 'tax' which corporations have to pay _all the time. _You know, like workers have to pay tax all the time not just when they've got a load of extra cash lying around. Or how about not running essential utilities for profit in the first place, so that the question of taxing those profits doesn't even come up.
> 
> The public should not be excited about the prospect of clawing back 1% of what was stolen from them, and having it spent repairing 1% of the damage the thieves did to get it.


I don't fully disagree. All I know is that I cannot countenance the Tories returning. I would much rather fight Starmer.

It may not be a rational argument, but I'm sat in the freezing cold typing with cold fingers. I can't do objectivity anymore. Come the next GE, if the Tories come knocking on my door I'm likely to end up before m'ludd.


----------



## Karl Masks (Dec 10, 2022)

redsquirrel said:


> What does that mean? Ignore them how? Are you planning to canvas for a party? Donate to a party? Organise? What?
> 
> Or are you just reducing politics to voting? I've already said I think voting is pretty much apolitical. I can't imagine I'll bother voting, but I'm not going chest prod others that decide to.


I mean do we vote or no


----------



## redsquirrel (Dec 10, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> I mean do we vote or no


Right so your are reducing politics to voting. 

If you are going to be consistent you should not just be arguing for a vote against the Tories (which as has been pointed out will be meaningless for most anyway), you should be arguing for joining Labour (or whoever), that people go out canvassing, that they donate, etc. Actual political actions rather than just sticking a mark on a bit of paper.


----------



## Karl Masks (Dec 10, 2022)

redsquirrel said:


> Right so your are reducing politics to voting.
> 
> If you are going to be consistent you should not just be arguing for a vote against the Tories (which as has been pointed out will be meaningless for most anyway), you should be arguing for joining Labour (or whoever), that people go out canvassing, that they donate, etc. Actual political actions rather than just sticking a mark on a bit of paper.


Those actions aren't happening. The system is in place and will produce a result by the end of 2024 at the latest. All I'm saying is that we should influence that to gain wahtever we can, no matter how little, where possible. The argument for consistency is irrelevant to me, I'm just saying people should do whatever they can however they can to improve things somewhat. I would love to see a revolutionary workers party but the left cant even agree on whether to support even that (look at tusc). I don't see any radical stuff happening anytime soon. If I'm wrong, then I'm glad to be wrong. 

YMMV i'm not content to sit things out on election day


----------



## redsquirrel (Dec 10, 2022)

Yes consistency was never your strong point. There are a shit loads of actions happening.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Dec 10, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> I'm sat in the freezing cold typing with cold fingers.


Well don't worry, you've only got to wait over a year for your precious general election. Hopefully by then you're fingers won't have turned to ice.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Dec 10, 2022)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> I'll probably vote Green. Not because they have a hope of getting in. Not because I believe in parliamentary politics. Largely because the more votes they get the more our political discourse will take notice of ecological issues.




Jeezus fucking christ


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Dec 10, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> Well the key word is meaningful. What do you consider as such?


I've told you before


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Dec 10, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> I'll take reforms as a transitional gain.


Jeezus you really are deluded.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 10, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> Those actions aren't happening. The system is in place and will produce a result by the end of 2024 at the latest. All I'm saying is that we should influence that to gain wahtever we can, no matter how little, where possible. The argument for consistency is irrelevant to me, I'm just saying people should do whatever they can however they can to improve things somewhat. I would love to see a revolutionary workers party but the left cant even agree on whether to support even that (look at tusc). I don't see any radical stuff happening anytime soon. If I'm wrong, then I'm glad to be wrong.
> 
> YMMV i'm not content to sit things out on election day


So what are you going to do on election day, whine on here?


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Dec 11, 2022)

AmateurAgitator said:


> Jeezus fucking christ


Well look mate, I may be wrong. But I'm now 67 years old. Been an anarchist since I was 15. I would love it if things could be changed really radically. I've been banging on about such things for a long time. People tend to listen a bit, often agree or agree with some of it, and then proceed not to do what I would like them to. In the meantime I have a life to live and it does make a difference which type of government is in power, some of the time in some areas. It does matter what issues are talked about in political discourse. It does matter if I can afford to heat the house over the winter. If all you can do is demand unconditional revolutionary politics from all and sundry at all times then your grasp on reality needs a bit more work.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Dec 11, 2022)

I would add that the climate emergency is now so acute and desperate that we have to ask/demand that governments and capitalist enterprises behave appropriately. If we wait for the revolution to sort things out we are truly doomed, (which we may be anyway, but who knows for sure?).


----------



## Karl Masks (Dec 11, 2022)

AmateurAgitator said:


> I've told you before


why do you think these things aren't being done then?


----------



## Karl Masks (Dec 11, 2022)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> I would add that the climate emergency is now so acute and desperate that we have to ask/demand that governments and capitalist enterprises behave appropriately. If we wait for the revolution to sort things out we are truly doomed, (which we may be anyway, but who knows for sure?).


I think we all know for sure, unfortuantely


----------



## Karl Masks (Dec 11, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> So what are you going to do on election day, whine on here?


I'll go and vote. It's not something that will be arduous for me and takes ten minutes of my time, assuming I still can under the Tories' new laws. Another reason to vote them out.

I've no idea why you think that constitutes whining, perhaps grow up a bit


----------



## inva (Dec 11, 2022)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> Well look mate, I may be wrong. But I'm now 67 years old. Been an anarchist since I was 15. I would love it if things could be changed really radically. I've been banging on about such things for a long time. People tend to listen a bit, often agree or agree with some of it, and then proceed not to do what I would like them to. In the meantime I have a life to live and it does make a difference which type of government is in power, some of the time in some areas. It does matter what issues are talked about in political discourse. It does matter if I can afford to heat the house over the winter. If all you can do is demand unconditional revolutionary politics from all and sundry at all times then your grasp on reality needs a bit more work.


-I'm not an anarchist anymore because I've given up waiting around for revolution and it matters what government is in power.
-So who're you voting for then?
-...the Green Party 😁


----------



## Chilli.s (Dec 11, 2022)

Iv voted tactically in the past and it always sticks in the craw. i dont think Ill do that again. Labour dont even bother where I live, second party my arse


----------



## mojo pixy (Dec 11, 2022)

I'm pretty sure it's possible to organise autonomously with comrades, and also cast a vote in a general election in the hope it'll fuck the tories off. I'm not sure the one precludes the other, that is I've never found comrades standing in my way as I walk into a polling station.

I don't know how black and white either/or attitudes help anyone tbh. Just get this shit show out of office, deal with what comes next, next.


----------



## Rob Ray (Dec 11, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> You don't have to believe he's a saint to realise capital wants a stable productive work force.


Well that's the rub, isn't it. All Parliamentary logic revolves around that. Which is why the policies of parties in power rarely have much to do with public opinion, or their own mooted philosophical inclinations. It's why the thread of Parliamentary action has headed in a pretty consistent direction for the last 50 years.

All that voting, Labour and Tory both, has led us to a position which is less free and less prosperous than that of our ancestors, where our expectations have relentlessly shrunk. That's what "least worst option" voting does when there's no extra-Parliamentary leverage, which is the thing that actually matters.

Not that I personally care if you vote btw, I just think going on about how everyone should do so is like demanding everyone should help you rearrange deckchairs.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Dec 11, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> I'll go and vote.


Perfectly content to vote for racism and attacks on the working class and unions, says it all.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Dec 11, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> why do you think these things aren't being done then?


Probably something to do with too many people like you being too dependent on politicians and putting all their time and energy into electoralism that'll get us nowhere. Thats certainly partly to do with it I reckon.


----------



## platinumsage (Dec 11, 2022)

AmateurAgitator said:


> Probably something to do with too many people like you being too dependent on politicians and putting all their time and energy into electoralism that'll get us nowhere. Thats certainly partly to do with it I reckon.



Are you planning on gluing yourself to ballot boxes or something?


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Dec 11, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> Are you planning on gluing yourself to ballot boxes or something?


No. Why would I do that?


----------



## platinumsage (Dec 11, 2022)

AmateurAgitator said:


> No. Why would I do that?



To stop people putting their energy into electoralism of course.


----------



## Rob Ray (Dec 11, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> Are you planning on gluing yourself to ballot boxes or something?


No matter how much glue he uses he won't be as firmly stuck as your record. And that record is, of course, the status quo.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Dec 11, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> To stop people putting their energy into electoralism of course.


That you thought of that says more about you than me.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Dec 11, 2022)

redsquirrel said:


> Yes consistency was never your strong point. There are a shit loads of actions happening.


Maybe he's paid by the Labour Party to promote them online.


----------



## kabbes (Dec 11, 2022)

mojo pixy said:


> I'm pretty sure it's possible to organise autonomously with comrades, and also cast a vote in a general election in the hope it'll fuck the tories off. I'm not sure the one precludes the other, that is I've never found comrades standing in my way as I walk into a polling station.


That’s true enough but it does rather rely on there being somebody you are willing to vote _for_


----------



## ska invita (Dec 11, 2022)

This is a bit special


			Welcome to nginx!
		




...etc


----------



## Karl Masks (Dec 11, 2022)

AmateurAgitator said:


> Probably something to do with too many people like you being too dependent on politicians and putting all their time and energy into electoralism that'll get us nowhere. Thats certainly partly to do with it I reckon.


I think you overestimate my influence


----------



## Karl Masks (Dec 11, 2022)

ska invita said:


> This is a bit special
> 
> 
> Welcome to nginx!


Streeting really is a cunt


----------



## Serge Forward (Dec 11, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> Streeting really is a cunt


But would you vote for him?


----------



## ska invita (Dec 11, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> Streeting really is a cunt


Worse than that this is official Labour line, coms team signed sealed delivered


----------



## mojo pixy (Dec 11, 2022)

kabbes said:


> That’s true enough but it does rather rely on there being somebody you are willing to vote _for_


Whoever is most likely to unseat the tory or keep them from winning. I don't think there's anybody to really vote _for_, but for me that's a different issue than getting / keeping tories out.

Alongside that there is plenty more to be done eg. with my union, or in my town with my son's school, with others at the library, through the council etc. That stuff has nothing to do with simply keeping the tories out at a GE.


----------



## mojo pixy (Dec 11, 2022)

Of course we could band together in a citizens' militia and overthrow the government by force as we don't recognise their fascistic, satanistic evil as legitimate. I'm pretty sure there are people genuinely aiming at that, they can't be too hard to hook up with. 

I hear there was such a group active in Germany recently, maybe there are a few leftovers from that looking to be recruited? They may not care which government they topple after all, as they're all as illegitimate as each other or something.


----------



## kabbes (Dec 11, 2022)

mojo pixy said:


> Whoever is most likely to unseat the tory or keep them from winning. I don't think there's anybody to really vote _for_, but for me that's a different issue than getting / keeping tories out.


Well, there’s the rub. I disagree that we’re _inherently_ better off with a Starmer government and Tory opposition than we would be with a Sunak government and a social democratic Labour opposition holding them to account. Not in the long term and not even necessarily in the short term. You’re making a big assumption that “anyone but the Tories” automatically leads to better things even in the here and now.


----------



## mojo pixy (Dec 11, 2022)

kabbes said:


> You’re making a big assumption that “anyone but the Tories” automatically leads to better things even in the here and now.


It's not really an assumption, more looking at the governments I've seen over my lifetime. None have ever been perfect and I'd never pretend they have, but some have definitely been worse. Tory ones in particular IMO.


----------



## kabbes (Dec 11, 2022)

I’d say that Blair’s second and third terms inflicted more harm than May’s dead duck government that was being blocked by Corbyn.


----------



## Chz (Dec 11, 2022)

kabbes said:


> I’d say that Blair’s second and third terms inflicted more harm than May’s dead duck government that was being blocked by Corbyn.


Short-term, sure. But a government that can't actually do anything at all is a serious long-term liability. If not for Brexit, we'd have had 5 years of that nonsense. Plus it's totally cherry-picking to not throw Cameron and Johnson in - they'd skew the chart scale so far that May and Blair would be indistinguishable without a microscope.


----------



## kabbes (Dec 11, 2022)

All that shows is that the relative desirability both long-term and short-term of voting for somebody is contextual, not absolute. That’s exactly why it’s not good enough just to say that “Starmer isn’t a Tory”.


----------



## mojo pixy (Dec 11, 2022)

kabbes said:


> I’d say that Blair’s second and third terms inflicted more harm than May’s dead duck government that was being blocked by Corbyn.


You could be right, they were there longer and had more to lose / more time to fuck up, and they did. Iraq war was a massive lesson to a whole new generation. 

What would really help would be adding _none of the above_ to GE ballots, but importantly, counting those votes. I want n.o.t.a to win a GE, see what happens then. Or better still, massive national argument over what should happen then. 

Most likely answer IMO is military coup at that point. Citizens' spontaneous insurrection is yeah OK a minuscule possibility, the MOD being far better armed and answerable to the king personally. So there's that. 

Personally I'm in favour of running government the same as we run jury service, a few thousand citizens in 2 or three chambers, assigned a 6 year term so ~17% changes every year. Social systems eg life-long education, welfare, retail prices for essentials, health, transport, wealth taxing must be immediately changed to accommodate this new reality. Are you listening, @keir_starmer ? Oh as fucking if.


----------



## Karl Masks (Dec 11, 2022)

Serge Forward said:


> But would you vote for him?


I would have to look at the balance of labour vs the tories. The bottom line is which is the worse outcome since one of them is going to win whether we like it or not.

If there better option then put it on the table. This shouldn't be an excuse to play into capitalism's divide and rule

Why people find this funny when people are fucking dying escapes me. All the pretend class warriors laughing at other working class. What a great look that is.


----------



## Karl Masks (Dec 11, 2022)

AmateurAgitator said:


> Maybe he's paid by the Labour Party to promote them online.


Maybe some of us live in the real world and not a sixth form common room.


----------



## Rob Ray (Dec 11, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> Why people find this funny when people are fucking dying escapes me. All the pretend class warriors laughing at other working class. What a great look that is.


Nobody finds the situation funny, Karl. In some cases people are (perhaps unkindly) laughing at aspects of the conversation or a good comeback. But that's not the same thing as laughing at people dying.

On that note though, I do find this tendency of some voting advocates to try and claim they're the only ones who give a shit to be a particularly unpleasant tactic. You know perfectly well it's untrue that caring = voting, that vast numbers of people who don't vote do make a huge effort to be decent people and help those in need. There's lots of non-voting union and community activists who have sacrificed a great deal of their time (and not infrequently income) to make a difference, some of whom are on this very forum. It's a shit attempt at diverting into emotional blackmail and pretty shameful behaviour. As for tripe about sixth form common rooms, that says more about your need to grow up than anyone else's.


----------



## Karl Masks (Dec 11, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> Nobody finds the situation funny, Karl. In some cases people are (perhaps unkindly) laughing at aspects of the conversation or a good comeback. But that's not the same thing as laughing at people dying.
> 
> On that note though, I do find this tendency of some voting advocates to try and claim they're the only ones who give a shit to be a particularly unpleasant tactic. You know perfectly well it's untrue that caring = voting, that vast numbers of people who don't vote do make a huge effort to be decent people and help those in need, it's a shit attempt at diverting into emotional blackmail and pretty shameful behaviour.


Nothing about this situation is objectively good. 

I am not saying voting advocates are the only ones who care. I am critical of some people, like AA who behaves like a bad impression of Rick from the Young Ones. They offer no answers nor any credible pathway to a better world. In the meantime this is the plate of shit we get. So if there are better solutions, I'm all for hearing them. 

It also has to be taken into consideration that Streeting, who have no time for, was commenting in the Telegraph. Not a neutral organ as everyone knows


----------



## Lord Camomile (Dec 11, 2022)

ska invita said:


> This is a bit special
> 
> 
> Welcome to nginx!
> ...


The Labour of Starmer, Streeting, etc is the homeopathic version of Labour


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 11, 2022)

ska invita said:


> Worse than that this is official Labour line, coms team signed sealed delivered



How have none of their trillions of consultants and PR drones pointed out that the public are largely behind striking workers despite the relentless onslaught against them from the entire media and both major parties?


----------



## Rob Ray (Dec 11, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> They offer no answers nor any credible pathway to a better world. In the meantime this is the plate of shit we get. So if there are better solutions, I'm all for hearing them.


AA can do doubt be abrasive when in full flow, but they're also very clear on their proposed solutions. The salient word here is "credible," which is, essentially, the root of the entire debate. Imv, and for a lot of others on here, the non-credible solution is to fuss over ballot boxes that have, objectively, provided a solidly anti-working class influence on the movement of Britain's economy for as long as most of us have been alive, under both Tory and Labour governments. And in fact the _only_ serious possibility for pressure in the other direction, for which there are no shortcuts, ballot based or otherwise, is to rebuild and reinvent organs of independent working class power that can exercise leverage against the State whoever happens to be in charge. Essentially, a counter power to that which the capitalist class have so successfully used again and again to get their way, showcased in its full iron fisted glory only last month.


----------



## Karl Masks (Dec 11, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> AA can do doubt be abrasive when in full flow, but they're also very clear on their proposed solutions. The salient word here is "credible," which is, essentially, the root of the entire debate. Imv, and for a lot of others on here, the non-credible solution is to fuss over ballot boxes that have, objectively, provided a solidly anti-working class influence on the movement of Britain's economy for as long as most of us have been alive, under both Tory and Labour governments. And in fact the _only_ serious possibility for pressure in the other direction, for which there are no shortcuts, ballot based or otherwise, is to rebuild and reinvent organs of independent working class power that can exercise leverage against the State whoever happens to be in charge. Essentially, a counter power to that which the capitalist class have so successfully used again and again to get their way, showcased in its full iron fisted glory only last month.


i think there is a misunderstanding here: I don't look at the ballot box as a solution. It is a means to achieving some benefits along the way. The cost of ignoring it means the Tories return and, for now, I believe that is materially worse. That's really all there is to it. Of course that could change: Starmer could come out tomorrow and say let's set fire to orphanages and I'd revise my opinion. None of this is set in stone and subject to nuance and caveats.


----------



## Sue (Dec 11, 2022)

SpookyFrank said:


> How have none of their trillions of consultants and PR drones pointed out that the public are largely behind striking workers despite the relentless onslaught against them from the entire media and both major parties?


Yes. It does feel like they've misjudged the public mood (obviously they shouldn't be formulating policy based on public mood but that's seemingly where we are right now).

As I said on the strike thread, on Any Answers yesterday, callers were overwhelming behind the strikes/strikers. Which is interesting given it's generally pretty rightwing.


----------



## inva (Dec 11, 2022)

SpookyFrank said:


> How have none of their trillions of consultants and PR drones pointed out that the public are largely behind striking workers despite the relentless onslaught against them from the entire media and both major parties?


They're presumably calculating that anyone supportive of the strikers will generally dutifully vote for Labour regardless of how anti union they are, while hammering workers might peel off a few more disillusioned Tories or keep existing converts on side. In the very short term they're probably right.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Dec 11, 2022)

Why anyone these days seriously thinks any politicians deserve their vote I really don't know. You'll get what you vote for and you'll be fully responsible to the harm done if who you vote for gains power, I won't be though.

I just want working class communities to be empowered rather than the ruling class. I just want us to be on the right track in strengthening the working class and proplery resisting capitalism and practising proper solidarity.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Dec 11, 2022)

AmateurAgitator said:


> I won't be though.


And afterall that's what really matters.

Cheers  - Louis MacNeice


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Dec 11, 2022)

If people like 'Karl Masks' (probably banned returner 'glitchhiker') were serious about politics they could very easily put their time and energy into doing the right things/what needs to be done (doing their bit to create and build revolutionary/militant autonoumous alternatives from below). But they're not, instead they insist on merely putting an X on a ballot sheet to vote for a racist, right wing political party who are for the interests of the bouregeosie. Its pathetic.


----------



## redsquirrel (Dec 11, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> i think there is a misunderstanding here: *I don't look at the ballot box as a solution*. It is a means to achieving some benefits along the way.


But you do. Your position that absolutely under all circumstances people must vote is making the ballot box key. It is providing cover for the liberals, and pushing the Labour Party to the right.


----------



## redsquirrel (Dec 11, 2022)

AmateurAgitator said:


> If people like 'Karl Masks' (AKA glitchhiker) were serious about politics they could very easily put their time and energy into doing the right things (doing their bit to create and build revolutionary/militant autonoumous alternatives from below). But they're not, instead they insist on merely putting an X on a ballot sheet to vote for a racist, right wing political party who are for the interests of the bouregeosie. Its pathetic.


Frankly I'd have (a little) more respect for Wells if he did join the Labour Party. At least that would show he is willing to put his effort (and money) where his mouth is.


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## Karl Masks (Dec 11, 2022)

redsquirrel said:


> But you do. Your position that absolutely under all circumstances people must vote is making the ballot box key. It is providing cover for the liberals, and pushing the Labour Party to the right.


Why do you keep ignoring the nuance? All that does is sacrifice people's wellbeing on the altar of ideology.


----------



## Karl Masks (Dec 11, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> AA can do doubt be abrasive when in full flow, but they're also very clear on their proposed solutions. The salient word here is "credible," which is, essentially, the root of the entire debate. Imv, and for a lot of others on here, the non-credible solution is to fuss over ballot boxes that have, objectively, provided a solidly anti-working class influence on the movement of Britain's economy for as long as most of us have been alive, under both Tory and Labour governments. And in fact the _only_ serious possibility for pressure in the other direction, for which there are no shortcuts, ballot based or otherwise, is to rebuild and reinvent organs of independent working class power that can exercise leverage against the State whoever happens to be in charge. Essentially, a counter power to that which the capitalist class have so successfully used again and again to get their way, showcased in its full iron fisted glory only last month.


They aren't clear. They may think they are, but I don't see clarity. I see circularity. Anarchism is great if you're an anarchist. But for everyone else there is a huge leap to be made. People like AA never bridge that gap. I've no doubt an anarchist society would be preferrable. But saying that doesn't make it a reality nor does it persuade people so.


----------



## Karl Masks (Dec 11, 2022)

AmateurAgitator said:


> Why anyone these days seriously thinks any politicians deserve their vote I really don't know. You'll get what you vote for and you'll be fully responsible to the harm done if who you vote for gains power, I won't be though.
> 
> I just want working class communities to be empowered rather than the ruling class. I just want us to be on the right track in strengthening the working class and proplery resisting capitalism and practising proper solidarity.


We all want that, but you have not explained how


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Dec 11, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> We all want that, but you have not explained how


No one can state that they have all the definitive answers on how to create a revolution and a decent post-revolutionary society necessarily. There is only a rough guide on how it might be done really I suppose. But trying to create and build a *strong* autonoumous, revolutionary movement from below that unites as many people to resist capitalism as possible would be a start and there are all sorts of ways that people can contribute to that.


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## Karl Masks (Dec 11, 2022)

AmateurAgitator said:


> No one can state that they have all the definitive answers on how to create a revolution and a decent post-revolutionary society necessarily. There is only a rough guide on how it might be done really I suppose. But creating and building a *strong* autonoumous, revolutionary movement from below that unites as many people to resist capitalism as possible would be a start and there are all sorts of ways that people can contribute to that.


You're dodging the question. If you want people to be anarchist then you are going to have to explain how that will work because the first question anyone will ask is precisely that. You are not arguing against a neutral backdrop, you are talking to people born and raised under and socialised to capitalism. 

So again, how are you going to build strong autonomous revolutionary movements from below? What does that look like or mean? I mentioned circularity before, this is exactly why. You are essentially saying "in order to be anarchist we have to be anarchist". It's a great philosophy if you're already one. But for the wider society and people you, presumably, want to disuade from voting then how will you do this? What do you expect those people to do in the meantime when there's a general election imminent and the prospect of a returning tory party?

I can guarantee that average worker's response to your statement will be to point out that you are advocating something you can't even explain


----------



## Serge Forward (Dec 11, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> I would have to look at the balance of labour vs the tories. The bottom line is which is the worse outcome since one of them is going to win whether we like it or not.
> 
> If there better option then put it on the table. This shouldn't be an excuse to play into capitalism's divide and rule
> 
> Why people find this funny when people are fucking dying escapes me. All the pretend class warriors laughing at other working class. What a great look that is.


People are dying because of the system you support and nobody's laughing. That you and many others continue to urge support for this murderous system is tragic rather than humorous. 

Anyway, I'm not telling you not to vote. Do so if it'll make you feel better. I will say though that your expectations of what a right wing Labour Party will do to improve the lot of the working class are wildly unrealistic.


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## AmateurAgitator (Dec 11, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> how are you going to build strong autonomous revolutionary movements from below?


I can't claim to be any kind of expert, but really no one is. And theres no magic formula that can guarantee success.

Theres a whole list of grass roots, autonomous things that people can get together and do and get involved with, for example -

Propaganda/media - creating/contributing to/ distributing freesheets, website articles, leaflets, pamphlets etc, creating/putting up stickers, subvertising, attending/supporting pickets of workers, graffitti, making or contributing to podcasts or videos, having a presence on protests and getting involved in campaigns. Organising/attending/contributing to organising public meetings or organising meetings of like-minded people with a view to doing stuff or to discuss organising etc, getting involved with and having influence in/organising in a union, practicing social insertion/especifismo (which has had some success in South America). Getting involved with community organising and/or learning about it. Organising stalls and radical bookfairs, donating radical books to bookshops and libraries, setting up or getting involved with a reading/study group.

In the workplace - agitating, occupying, sabotaging, working to rule and subversion in the workplaces (and community), refusing to pay their prices or their rent, and striking when WE decide if it’s time to strike, not when union bureaucrats and the state give us permission to.  Plus ofcourse, creating and/or participating in our own, horizontally organised groups and organisations, affinity groups, mutual aid groups, food kitchens and unofficial unions.

And for example, when workers aren’t paid the wages owed them, rather than asking the government to give us better legal protection, we take action to force employers to pay. Such things have been achieved with only a few dozen people. Renters unions have had many successes such as getting repairs done and refusing to pay rent increases, sometimes with only a handful of people. Setting up or getting involved with a claimants union. Getting together with others to resist, organise and practise mutual aid, including -  collective expropriation (shop-lifting) and squatting.  Strategic holism - focussing on the four fields of action: individual learning and inquisitiveness, interpersonal relations, social structures, and environmental structures.

These are all things that groups of people can do (and some of these things can be done by individuals) and they can be done effectively in a grass roots and autonomous way. And there are groups/orgs that do just some of these things but not necessarily all of them (for example there are groups/orgs that are mainly propaganda groups) and then hopefully grow and build on this and do more.

Imagine the power we could wield in our workplaces and our communities if thousands of us decided to refuse to be walked on, oppressed and exploited any longer, and began to act autonomously from below. We can do our bit in all these varying ways to choose from instead of just putting an X on a ballot sheet and relying on politicians and political parties and handing over our power to them and we need an autonomous grass roots movement to atleast hold the politicians etc to account so that we're not just dependent on them. We need our own power - in the workplaces and communities.

And, if you ask me, all the good things we think of as having been created by the state – free healthcare, free education, health & safety laws to protect us at work, housing regulations, sick pay, unemployment benefits, pensions – came about historically to put an end to organised campaigns of collective direct action etc that threatened the power of the ruling class and their state.


----------



## Flavour (Dec 11, 2022)

does Keir say anything -- at all -- about the various strikes going on / planned? i'm really curious to know how he plans to win votes from nurses, border guards etc if he sticks to the tory line on strikes


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## Puddy_Tat (Dec 11, 2022)

Flavour said:


> i'm really curious to know how he plans to win votes from nurses, border guards etc if he sticks to the tory line on strikes



does he care?

the mandelson 'they haven't got anywhere else to go' approach, and being more interested in attracting floating voters / tories?

wonder if the limp dems will try to position themselves left of labour next time?


----------



## hitmouse (Dec 11, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> You're dodging the question. If you want people to be anarchist then you are going to have to explain how that will work because the first question anyone will ask is precisely that. You are not arguing against a neutral backdrop, you are talking to people born and raised under and socialised to capitalism.
> 
> So again, how are you going to build strong autonomous revolutionary movements from below? What does that look like or mean? I mentioned circularity before, this is exactly why. You are essentially saying "in order to be anarchist we have to be anarchist". It's a great philosophy if you're already one. But for the wider society and people you, presumably, want to disuade from voting then how will you do this? What do you expect those people to do in the meantime when there's a general election imminent and the prospect of a returning tory party?


I mean, maybe this doesn't count as a revolutionary movement as such, but within the last few months we've seen a widescale grassroots movement calling for the nonpayment of energy bills, following which the conservatives announced their intention to cap the price of energy bills rather than leaving it to the free market. That's a practical example of non-electoral direct action winning real things that make people's lives better,  waiting for a Labour government in 2024 or whenever would not have done that. Similarly, we have the RMT, CWU, and NHS union disputes, all of which have the potential to seriously humble this government and kick big holes in their agenda.

The thing that does my head in isn't whether people vote or not - when the day comes, vote Labour, vote Green, vote Lib Dem if that's what your heart wants, it's no skin off my nose - it's, as redsquirrel says above, the reduction of politics to voting, so we get these endless discussions about "what do you reckon you'll do in a general election that hasn't been announced yet", when there's so much we can be doing between now and then. The same thing doesn't happen with other forms of political activity, no-one goes around starting discussions on "if there's hypothetically another post strike at some point in 2023 or 2024 what are you going to do about it?" or "if you found out one of your neighbours was facing eviction at some point in 2024 how would you react?"


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## hitmouse (Dec 11, 2022)

Flavour said:


> does Keir say anything -- at all -- about the various strikes going on / planned? i'm really curious to know how he plans to win votes from nurses, border guards etc if he sticks to the tory line on strikes


Not a direct message from Sir QC himself, but ska posted the latest good word from the Labour front bench upthread:


			Welcome to nginx!
		




> Labour will take on “hostile” health unions holding back the NHS, the shadow health secretary has said.
> In an interview with The Telegraph, Wes Streeting warned that the NHS was “a service, not a shrine” and needed to “reform or die”.
> Mr Streeting – who revealed that he has been waiting for months for delayed scans after cancer treatment – said the health service faced an “existential crisis”, with “appalling” difficulties accessing care.
> He said the public had sacrificed “a lot of their lives and liberty” to prevent the NHS from being overwhelmed during repeated lockdowns, only to see it now “collapsed” around them.
> ...


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## Flavour (Dec 11, 2022)

"We are not going to have a ‘something for nothing’ culture in the NHS with Labour.”        

Fantastic stuff


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## Chilli.s (Dec 12, 2022)

mojo pixy said:


> What would really help would be adding _none of the above_ to GE ballots, but importantly, counting those votes. I want n.o.t.a to win a GE, see what happens then.


yes


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## magneze (Dec 12, 2022)

> If anyone in the NHS thinks that they can demand more investment without demonstrating better standards for patients, they’ve got another think coming.


Has anyone actually said this? Seems like tilting at windmills to me.


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## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Dec 12, 2022)

magneze said:


> Has anyone actually said this? Seems like tilting at windmills to me.



Nah, it's just appealing to the idea that mad Telegraph readers have, that people in jobs like nursing are all lazy skivers who're only interested in counting their massive piles of cash they're getting from the pockets of all those hard working lawyers.


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## Plumdaff (Dec 12, 2022)

Yes, because nurses aren't striking at least in part because long term low retention and nonexistent recruitment is having far more of a dangerous impact on care than two days of stoppages could ever have. Fuck off Streeting you vacuous Tory twat.


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## agricola (Dec 12, 2022)

Flavour said:


> "We are not going to have a ‘something for nothing’ culture in the NHS with Labour.”
> 
> Fantastic stuff



can't wait for him to qualify that with "except at the top and in contracting, obvs"


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## two sheds (Dec 12, 2022)

Plumdaff said:


> Yes, because nurses aren't striking at least in part because long term low retention and nonexistent recruitment is having far more of a dangerous impact on care than two days of stoppages could ever have. Fuck off Streeting you vacuous Tory twat.


Indeed, I'm impressed at how important MPs are saying the ambulance service is during the strike periods while they normally don't seem to give much of a fuck.


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## AmateurAgitator (Dec 12, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> We all want that


I don't think that everyone does want that, but if you do then surely you'd try to work towards that goal with others.


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## editor (Dec 13, 2022)

Here he is whooping with joy as England score against Wales. The useless cunt


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## Pickman's model (Dec 13, 2022)

editor said:


> Here he is whooping with joy as England score against Wales. The useless cunt


that looks more like a man who doesn't know what he's doing - his face reads 'am i supposed to be doing this?'


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## Pickman's model (Dec 13, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> Not a direct message from Sir QC himself, but ska posted the latest good word from the Labour front bench upthread:
> 
> 
> Welcome to nginx!


sir kc i think you'll find


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## SpookyFrank (Dec 13, 2022)

Flavour said:


> "We are not going to have a ‘something for nothing’ culture in the NHS with Labour.”
> 
> Fantastic stuff



Does keeping the NHS as an institution viable for at least the medium term not count as 'something' to these fucking people? Does the endless, everyday grind of overworked staff not count as something? Utter arseholes. There's no ignorance defence for this kind of shit, it's just outright malice.


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## hitmouse (Dec 13, 2022)

SpookyFrank said:


> Does keeping the NHS as an institution viable for at least the medium term not count as 'something' to these fucking people? Does the endless, everyday grind of overworked staff not count as something? Utter arseholes. There's no ignorance defence for this kind of shit, it's just outright malice.


I didn't even realise how fucking bad that sentence is until Flavour highlighted it, but it's also a direct fuck you to the founding principles of the NHS, "free at the point of delivery" and "based on clinical need, not ability to pay" literally mean people getting something for nothing. I think Streeting is probably too thick to realise what he was actually saying there, but it's not great either way.


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## teqniq (Dec 13, 2022)

Dawn Foster RIP on Streeting:


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## Knotted (Dec 13, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> that looks more like a man who doesn't know what he's doing - his face reads 'am i supposed to be doing this?'



To be fair, he always looks that way.


----------



## teqniq (Dec 16, 2022)

What an absolute shitshow the Labour party has become under Starmer, a short thread:


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## steveseagull (Dec 16, 2022)

Astounding isn't it. The left elect a Jewish woman to the NEC and within weeks Starmer has hounded her out of the party in a spite filled rage. And along with the many other Jews he has hounded out, the media stay quiet.

This authoritarian fucker is an absolute danger.


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## steveseagull (Dec 16, 2022)

he has quite a list of people he hates.

Jewish socialists
Trade unionists
workers
this will end well...


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## steveseagull (Dec 16, 2022)

His henchman Wes Streeting has been giving a talk to a far right think tank today. Said think tank like to write reports linking mad conspiracy theory hoaxes to Muslims.


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## teqniq (Dec 16, 2022)

I've just been looking at that thread. Was reluctant to click on play in case I got really depressed/angry.


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## Johnny Vodka (Dec 16, 2022)

editor said:


> Here he is whooping with joy as England score against Wales. The useless cunt



It's "I AM A MAN OF THE PEOPLE!"
No, you're not, you beige, tory-lite cunt.  Now, fuck off.


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## brogdale (Dec 17, 2022)

As with all good parody....


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## teqniq (Dec 17, 2022)

What the actual fuck?


----------



## brogdale (Dec 17, 2022)

teqniq said:


> What the actual fuck?


The word _parody_


----------



## NoXion (Dec 17, 2022)

brogdale said:


> As with all good parody....




Stupid fucking evil lumps of human shit. How the fuck do they expect kids to be able to concentrate when they're hungry?


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## Serge Forward (Dec 17, 2022)

NoXion said:


> Stupid fucking evil lumps of human shit. How the fuck do they expect kids to be able to concentrate when they're hungry?


As has been said, it's a parody... but it sails very close to the sort of shite, Starmer, Reeves, Streeting or some other shadow cabinet dalek comes out with.


----------



## NoXion (Dec 18, 2022)

Serge Forward said:


> As has been said, it's a parody... but it sails very close to the sort of shite, Starmer, Reeves, Streeting or some other shadow cabinet dalek comes out with.



Yes, it was all too believable and I responded too quickly.


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## brogdale (Dec 18, 2022)

NoXion said:


> Yes, it was all too believable and I responded too quickly.


Spot on; it was the believability that made it such good satire.


----------



## _Russ_ (Dec 18, 2022)

Ken Loach gives a forthright opinion on the right wing propaganda machine and how it related to Corbyn's fall, the shame being that the vast majority of Voters in this country wont read it or indeed read anything else that isnt projected through a  lens of capitalism loves you and socialism is evil

‘Absolutely shameless’: Ken Loach says BBC helped ‘destroy’ Jeremy Corbyn


----------



## Indeliblelink (Dec 18, 2022)




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## AmateurAgitator (Dec 21, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Mind you he doesn't think it really matters whether Trump gets in or not next time in the US, so we're unlikely to agree on much.


I've got no love for the likes of Trump and he can die or rot in jail for the rest of his life for all I care. What matters to me is getting rid of this extremely shit system, no matter who is in charge of managing it.


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## Pickman's model (Dec 22, 2022)

even by shammer's standards this is particularly stupid Labour targets new swing voter ‘middle-aged mortgage man’


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## Pickman's model (Dec 22, 2022)

brogdale said:


> Spot on; it was the believability that made it such good satire.


it'll be official policy within weeks


----------



## hash tag (Dec 22, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> even by shammer's standards this is particularly stupid Labour targets new swing voter ‘middle-aged mortgage man’


Wtf.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 22, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> even by shammer's standards this is particularly stupid Labour targets new swing voter ‘middle-aged mortgage man’



Finally, someone to speak up for property-owning baby boomers.


----------



## hash tag (Dec 22, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> even by shammer's standards this is particularly stupid Labour targets new swing voter ‘middle-aged mortgage man’


Oh, mummy likes donkeys, thinks, I'll buy her a donkey sanctuary 🙄


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## Elpenor (Dec 22, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> even by shammer's standards this is particularly stupid Labour targets new swing voter ‘middle-aged mortgage man’


So basically they’re targeting Clarkson wannabes


----------



## magneze (Dec 22, 2022)

Who the fuck wants to be Clarkson?


----------



## Cerv (Dec 22, 2022)

SpookyFrank said:


> Finally, someone to speak up for property-owning baby boomers.


middle aged now is vastly more gen-xers than baby boomers.
only the youngest boomers from the tail end couple of years would still be in the crossover.

times inevitable march goes on and on


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## brogdale (Dec 24, 2022)

Made me


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## Karl Masks (Dec 25, 2022)

brogdale said:


> Made me



Clear similarities; both Norman Cook and Keith took other people's work and became successful after trashing it


----------



## LDC (Dec 25, 2022)

editor said:


> Here he is whooping with joy as England score against Wales. The useless cunt



That bloke on the far left looks like he's lost the will to live and is screaming into the pits of hell for Lucifer to take him away from that place to somehere better.


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## Karl Masks (Dec 25, 2022)

I bet they had to redo that photo just to make sure Keith's cheer is the bestest


----------



## PR1Berske (Dec 29, 2022)

> LABOUR CAN’T ‘TURN ON THE TAPS FROM DAY ONE’ ON SPENDING, SAYS
> NEW TUC LEADER
> 
> [image]
> ...


----------



## hash tag (Dec 29, 2022)

For fear of stating the bleedin obvious


----------



## _Russ_ (Dec 30, 2022)

I do wonder how many here will be voting _*'Labour' *_next election whilst being fully aware  they aren't actually Labour?.
I will be


----------



## agricola (Dec 30, 2022)

_Russ_ said:


> I do wonder how many here will be voting _*'Labour' *_next election whilst being fully aware  they aren't actually Labour?.
> I will be



Fortunately I like my local MP, so will be voting for her rather than the party she represents.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Dec 30, 2022)

I see Starmer is pledging to crack down on 'anti-social behaviour' ie. those who are working class people ofcourse.


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## AmateurAgitator (Dec 30, 2022)

_Russ_ said:


> I do wonder how many here will be voting _*'Labour' *_next election whilst being fully aware  they aren't actually Labour?.
> I will be


You'll get what you vote for, and hey, maybe some surprises too.


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## Serge Forward (Dec 30, 2022)

They'll be voting along to that Chris de Burgh tune, "Tory in Red" 🎶


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## hash tag (Dec 31, 2022)

agricola said:


> Fortunately I like my local MP, so will be voting for her rather than the party she represents.


I like my neighbouring MP, Dr Rosina Allin-Khan but not sure she is much of a socialist. Not so keen on my local MP.


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## maomao (Dec 31, 2022)

My MP is a slimy little rapist so I'll end up voting against him.


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## Serge Forward (Dec 31, 2022)

Liz fucking Kendall


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## Karl Masks (Dec 31, 2022)

My local MP is John Penrose whose wife pissed away 37bn of our money. But i'd vote for him if he could tell me how to switch off these firework effects! 




I stll wouldn't


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## AmateurAgitator (Jan 1, 2023)

This is a good piece by the ACG on Starmer's Labour Party, I recommend that people read it :









						The real face of Labour - Anarchist Communist Group
					

Wes Streeting, shadow health secretary and MP for Ilford North has spelled out how Labour will operate if elected to power at the next election. In an interview with the Tory paper the Daily Telegraph he emphasised that a future Labour administration would combat “hostile” unions in the health...




					www.anarchistcommunism.org


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## teqniq (Jan 1, 2023)

^^^ this is not telling us anything that was not already known/reported elsewhere.


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## Serge Forward (Jan 1, 2023)

It can't be repeated enough, given the number of lefts who continue to see Labour as the only "realistic" response and will end up falling into line with Starmer come election day.


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## teqniq (Jan 4, 2023)

Complete lack of imagination here, or more likely the unwillingness to upset the status quo, such as it is:









						Labour will not open ‘big government chequebook’, Starmer to say
					

Party leader’s new year speech to promise ‘national renewal’ if elected but stress role of private sector too




					www.theguardian.com


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## Puddy_Tat (Jan 4, 2023)

"nothing better is possible.  we're marginally less shit than the tories.  vote for us"

meh


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## SpookyFrank (Jan 5, 2023)

teqniq said:


> Complete lack of imagination here, or more likely the unwillingness to upset the status quo, such as it is:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So, privatisation or privatisation. Democracy ladies and gentlemen


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## Pickman's model (Jan 5, 2023)

.


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## Cid (Jan 5, 2023)

Starmer is a step too far for me. US I'd vote dem under current situation, but nah, can't justify Starmer - barely a rizzla silver between him and the tories.


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## Chz (Jan 5, 2023)

Quite lackluster this morning, I thought. But miles better than what Sunak had to say yesterday, and that's the only thing that really matters.


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## brogdale (Jan 5, 2023)

_Go ahead socialist; make my day..

_


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## oryx (Jan 6, 2023)

I read somewhere recently that Starmer is a Turing test in reverse. Which amused me.


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## _Russ_ (Jan 6, 2023)

Serge Forward said:


> It can't be repeated enough, given the number of lefts who continue to see Labour as the only "realistic" response and will end up falling into line with Starmer come election day.


My eyes are wide open to what Starmer's leadership means and see it as a measurably better alternative to the Tories staying in Power, Im interested to hear of an alternative vote that would result in unseating the Tories
(presuming you want them out as top priority)


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## _Russ_ (Jan 6, 2023)

Puddy_Tat said:


> "nothing better is possible.  we're marginally less shit than the tories.  vote for us"
> 
> meh


That's pretty much the case  as I see it, but hold out hope that there are enough back benchers with spines to to bring the party back to its name if even only  slightly, another Tory Government is simply not something I ever want to see again


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## steveseagull (Jan 6, 2023)

The ideal outcome here is Starmer is short of a majority and the Lib Dems go into coalition and force him to adopt PR and temper his more far right extremes and his authoritarianism. Then Labour can go to the dust.


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## lazythursday (Jan 6, 2023)

steveseagull said:


> The ideal outcome here is Starmer is short of a majority and the Lib Dems go into coalition and force him to adopt PR and temper his more far right extremes and his authoritarianism. Then Labour can go to the dust.


Indeed. Much as there is something viscerally satisfying about a landslide, all those awful Tory personalities swept away, it would actually be a terrible result for anyone who wants to see genuine change.


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## andysays (Jan 6, 2023)

steveseagull said:


> The ideal outcome here is Starmer is short of a majority and the Lib Dems go into coalition and force him to adopt PR and temper his more far right extremes and his authoritarianism. Then Labour can go to the dust.



It's like 2010 never happened...


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## Sue (Jan 6, 2023)

steveseagull said:


> The ideal outcome here is Starmer is short of a majority and the Lib Dems go into coalition and force him to adopt PR and temper his more far right extremes and his authoritarianism. Then Labour can go to the dust.


I have never seen a situation so dismal that a Lib Dem couldn't make it worse.


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## Pickman's model (Jan 6, 2023)

steveseagull said:


> The ideal outcome here is Starmer is short of a majority and the Lib Dems go into coalition and force him to adopt PR and temper his more far right extremes and his authoritarianism. Then Labour can go to the dust.


the ideal situation is that shammer dies of a heart attack on election night


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## Puddy_Tat (Jan 6, 2023)

Pickman's model said:


> the ideal situation is that shammer dies of a heart attack on election night



bit unimaginative

i was hoping more for him being savaged by a gang of rabid alpacas


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## The39thStep (Jan 6, 2023)

steveseagull said:


> The ideal outcome here is Starmer is short of a majority and the Lib Dems go into coalition and force him to adopt PR and temper his more far right extremes and his authoritarianism. Then Labour can go to the dust.


Surely there must be a more ideal outcome or ambition than PR and the fucking Lib Dems?


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## Pickman's model (Jan 6, 2023)

Puddy_Tat said:


> bit unimaginative
> 
> i was hoping more for him being savaged by a gang of rabid alpacas


that's def on the cards in somewhere like islington


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## Pickman's model (Jan 6, 2023)

The39thStep said:


> Surely there must be a more ideal outcome or ambition than PR and the fucking Lib Dems?


bloody revolution with mps and lords butchered on parliament square while we all take up knitting and watch the tumbrils deliver their human refuse to the guillotine?


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## Sue (Jan 6, 2023)

Pickman's model said:


> bloody revolution with mps and lords butchered on parliament square while we all take up knitting and watch the tumbrils deliver their human refuse to the guillotine?


I'm not really a knitter but sure we can work round that..?


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## The39thStep (Jan 6, 2023)

Pickman's model said:


> bloody revolution with mps and lords butchered on parliament square while we all take up knitting and watch the tumbrils deliver their human refuse to the guillotine?


That’s fine for an undercard but what about the main event ?


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## Pickman's model (Jan 6, 2023)

The39thStep said:


> That’s fine for an undercard but what about the main event ?


I've TopCat down to be in charge of fireworks as we storm the palace


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## hash tag (Jan 6, 2023)

lazythursday said:


> Indeed. Much as there is something viscerally satisfying about a landslide, all those awful Tory personalities swept away, it would actually be a terrible result for anyone who wants to see genuine change.


With the UK democracy and voting system the way it is, not to mention the people who vote, I doubt that we will ever see much change.


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## Pickman's model (Jan 6, 2023)

.


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## Serge Forward (Jan 6, 2023)

_Russ_ said:


> My eyes are wide open to what Starmer's leadership means and see it as a measurably better alternative to the Tories staying in Power, Im interested to hear of an alternative vote that would result in unseating the Tories
> (presuming you want them out as top priority)


It's not my top priority and the alternative is only marginally less shite. Also, you're mistaking me for someone opposed to people voting in elections when I'm not. Fuck, I've occasionally voted myself in the past, but where I live now, voting would just mean voting for that Liz Kendall (a Tory with a red rosette) in a constituency where any cunt in a red rosette could get elected. What I'm saying is, voting is not an alternative, it's just making do and I prefer not to encourage this sort of thing. Sure, leftish people, feel free to vote Labour, but you really do need to lower your expectations and exercise your memories about the last Labour government and the nefarious activities of numerous Labour councils.

Of course, there isn't an alternative at present but my top priority is to help build that. The sad thing is, the more people are fixated on Labour winning elections, then the less likely any effective alternative can be built.


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## redsquirrel (Jan 6, 2023)

The39thStep said:


> Surely there must be a more ideal outcome or ambition than PR and the fucking Lib Dems?


Not bothered by PR and the LibDems can get to fuck but I do think a Labour minority government reliant on the SNP (and others) would be better than a (big) Labour majority.


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## AmateurAgitator (Jan 6, 2023)

The39thStep said:


> That’s fine for an undercard but what about the main event ?


Let's all write a stern letter to our MP's, set up a pettiton and hold a peaceful demo.


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## The39thStep (Jan 6, 2023)

AmateurAgitator said:


> Let's all write a stern letter to our MP's, set up a pettiton and hold a peaceful demo.


On here? It would be like herding cats


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## Pickman's model (Jan 6, 2023)

_Russ_ said:


> My eyes are wide open to what Starmer's leadership means and see it as a measurably better alternative to the Tories staying in Power, Im interested to hear of an alternative vote that would result in unseating the Tories
> (presuming you want them out as top priority)


Don't know what measure you're using, please elaborate


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## kabbes (Saturday at 7:42 AM)

_Russ_ said:


> My eyes are wide open to what Starmer's leadership means and see it as a measurably better alternative to the Tories staying in Power, Im interested to hear of an alternative vote that would result in unseating the Tories
> (presuming you want them out as top priority)


My “top priority” is a fairer society that doesn’t result in misery and desperation for millions. On the other hand, cheerleading for one bunch of cunts to replace another, who then just continue to work against that  top priority, is very, very, very far down my priority list.


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## andysays (Saturday at 8:34 AM)

AmateurAgitator said:


> Let's all write a stern letter to our MP's, set up a pettiton and hold a peaceful demo.


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## _Russ_ (Saturday at 3:03 PM)

kabbes said:


> My “top priority” is a fairer society that doesn’t result in misery and desperation for millions. On the other hand, cheerleading for one bunch of cunts to replace another, who then just continue to work against that  top priority, is very, very, very far down my priority list.


Im hardly cheerleading for Labour, how you gonna get to this fairer society if you dont start with toppling the Biggest Cunts first?, Im not sure there are enough Brits that actually give a fuck or even comprehend whats being done to them for wholsale revolution that bypasses that first step and the many others on the road to a fair society


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## kabbes (Saturday at 4:15 PM)

_Russ_ said:


> Im hardly cheerleading for Labour, how you gonna get to this fairer society if you dont start with toppling the Biggest Cunts first?, Im not sure there are enough Brits that actually give a fuck or even comprehend whats being done to them for wholsale revolution that bypasses that first step and the many others on the road to a fair society


How does it get me to a fairer society to reward the Labour Party for a heavy shift rightward?  Where is there going to be any incentive for a more Social Democratic direction the future?  It actually does the opposite.  Fuck that.


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## Serge Forward (Saturday at 5:46 PM)

_Russ_ said:


> how you gonna get to this fairer society if you dont start with toppling the Biggest Cunts first?


Trouble is, each Labour government since Attlee has shifted further to the right each time. What Starmer offers now is probably well to the right of the Heath government. So this strategy of getting us to a fairer society really isn't working.


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## _Russ_ (Saturday at 8:17 PM)

Serge Forward said:


> Trouble is, each Labour government since Attlee has shifted further to the right each time. What Starmer offers now is probably well to the right of the Heath government. So this strategy of getting us to a fairer society really isn't working.


OK so the alternative is not to vote or try changing the system?, or what?.  talk of revolution does bugger all except get you likes


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## Serge Forward (Saturday at 11:08 PM)

The alternative is to vote if you like (for whatever good it'll do) but  make sure you're helping to build workplace and community organisation and activity. You know, those meaningful actions which can build class confidence rather than passivity. It's about doing what we can to help develop a culture of resistance within our class. Up to people whether they talk about revolution or not, but where we are now (when many workers don't even have trade union consciousness) is basic grass roots stuff. Touting for the dead end of Labourism is a waste of time.


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## Jeff Robinson (Sunday at 7:59 AM)

oryx said:


> I read somewhere recently that Starmer is a Turing test in reverse. Which amused me.



A selected part of a recent Observer magazine cover:


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## AmateurAgitator (Sunday at 5:55 PM)

Have to admit, I'm tempted to vote Labour now.

* just kidding *









						Labour would look at banning smoking and the sale of cigarettes, Wes Streeting says
					

The shadow health minister said Labour will 'think radically' on the NHS and public health




					inews.co.uk
				




I can't stand cigarette smoke though.


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## ruffneck23 (Tuesday at 7:17 AM)

Well it seems he has a new fan.








						Former Tory minister quits 'self obsessed' party and throws support behind Starmer
					

Claire Perry O'Neill, a cabinet minister under Theresa May, said the Tories are too beholden by "ideology and self-obsession", whereas Labour is "fact-driven and competent".




					news.sky.com


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## ska invita (Tuesday at 7:23 AM)

ruffneck23 said:


> Well it seems he has a new fan.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


what with Osborne's backing too the Tories seem to have their man


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## AmateurAgitator (Tuesday at 9:03 AM)

ska invita said:


> what with Osborne's backing too the Tories seem to have their man


George Osbourne is backing Starmer?


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## ska invita (Tuesday at 9:05 AM)

AmateurAgitator said:


> George Osbourne is backing Starmer?


that was a quote from Osbourne, so yes.


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## AmateurAgitator (Tuesday at 9:11 AM)

ska invita said:


> that was a quote from Osbourne, so yes.


Well, can't say I'm surprised.


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## Cerv (Tuesday at 10:02 AM)

"I would rather have [Sunak] and [Hunt]"

"[Starmer] wouldn't be terrible for the country"

strong backing there. can see Labour putting these endorsements on the posters any day now.


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## rcourt130864 (Tuesday at 11:30 AM)

When arch Tories including the austerity Chancellor are backing Starmer you know that New Labour 2.0 is truly the pre UKIP Tory Party.


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## redsquirrel (Tuesday at 1:39 PM)

_Russ_ said:


> My eyes are wide open to what Starmer's leadership means and see it as a measurably better alternative to the Tories staying in Power, Im interested to hear of an alternative vote that would result in unseating the Tories
> (presuming you want them out as top priority)


If your top priority is to have the Tories out then I take it you are arguing for a vote for the party that is best placed to defeat them in each constituency?
So a 'progressive' alliance, or indeed even a vote for whatever UKIP are calling themselves this week if they are the best placed challenger (admittedly the latter is not really that likely).


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## Pickman's model (Tuesday at 1:46 PM)

rcourt130864 said:


> When arch Tories including the austerity Chancellor are backing Starmer you know that New Labour 2.0 is truly the pre UKIP Tory Party.


Tbh there was more talent within the pre ukip tory party than there is in labour now


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## Pickman's model (Tuesday at 1:46 PM)

AmateurAgitator said:


> George Osbourne is backing Starmer?


Well spotted


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## NoXion (Tuesday at 2:13 PM)

ska invita said:


> what with Osborne's backing too the Tories seem to have their man



In a properly functioning democracy, this kind of endorsement from what is ostensibly the political opposition should be the kiss of fucking death.

It's basically an admission that the only difference is the colour of the rosette. So why the fuck should _anyone_ vote Labour? If you like right-wing policies you can just vote for the Tory parasites. If you're left of Tony Blair you're electorally homeless.

I don't think the constituency of "centrist dads" is big enough to carry Labour into power. They've made themselves utterly pointless.


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## Pickman's model (Tuesday at 2:18 PM)

NoXion said:


> In a properly functioning democracy, this kind of endorsement from what is ostensibly the political opposition should be the kiss of fucking death.
> 
> It's basically an admission that the only difference is the colour of the rosette. So why the fuck should _anyone_ vote Labour? If you like right-wing policies you can just vote for the Tory parasites. If you're left of Tony Blair you're electorally homeless.
> 
> I don't think the constituency of "centrist dads" is big enough to carry Labour into power. They've made themselves utterly pointless.


In ten years time Alexander Armstrong and Richard osman will have shammer as a pointless answer


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## ruffneck23 (Tuesday at 2:25 PM)

Pickman's model said:


> In ten years time Alexander Armstrong and Richard osman will have shammer as a pointless answer


Well Osman Would if he hadnt left pointless last April


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## _Russ_ (Tuesday at 2:26 PM)

redsquirrel said:


> If your top priority is to have the Tories out then I take it you are arguing for a vote for the party that is best placed to defeat them in each constituency?
> So a 'progressive' alliance, or indeed even a vote for whatever UKIP are calling themselves this week if they are the best placed challenger (admittedly the latter is not really that likely).


UKIP wont ever  be the best placed challenger, I dont know why present such a scenario you must know its bollox. and how would voting for even bigger cunts than the ones I want to remove make any sense...nice smear attempt but fuck off


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## Pickman's model (Tuesday at 2:26 PM)

ruffneck23 said:


> Well Osman Would if he hadnt left pointless last April


Haven't seen any without him. Must have just seen repeats.


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## ruffneck23 (Tuesday at 2:30 PM)

Pickman's model said:


> Haven't seen any without him. Must have just seen repeats.


Nor me, I just read it somewhere the other day weirdly.


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## redsquirrel (Tuesday at 2:47 PM)

_Russ_ said:


> UKIP wont ever  be the best placed challenger, I dont know why present such a scenario you must know its bollox. and how would voting for even bigger cunts than the ones I want to remove make any sense...nice smear attempt but fuck off


UKIP were the best challenger in Clacton and Rochester and Stroud. It's not impossible that they (or their equivalent) will be the closest placed challenger in some deep blue seats this time around.

This is not a smear, it is the taking your stated position to its logical conclusion. If your "top priority" is to stop a Tory government then you should advocate a vote for any party that will deny them a seat.
If you are only advocating that people vote Labour (Or Liberal? Or SNP?) then by definition your priority is not _just_ to stop a Tory government. And in fact is not different in principle to the position outlined by kabbes, it is just that he draws the line of 'acceptable/useful' party at a different point to you.

So what exactly are you advocating?


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## Chz (Tuesday at 2:47 PM)

Pickman's model said:


> Haven't seen any without him. Must have just seen repeats.


He still does the "celebrity" ones, and I think those were the only new ones over the Christmas break.


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## Serge Forward (Tuesday at 2:58 PM)

NoXion said:


> In a properly functioning democracy, this kind of endorsement from what is ostensibly the political opposition should be the kiss of fucking death.
> 
> It's basically an admission that the only difference is the colour of the rosette. So why the fuck should _anyone_ vote Labour? If you like right-wing policies you can just vote for the Tory parasites. If you're left of Tony Blair you're electorally homeless.
> 
> I don't think the constituency of "centrist dads" is big enough to carry Labour into power. They've made themselves utterly pointless.


Starmer's cunning plan is to appeal to Tory voters, Tory party members and Tory MPs. Years ago, Blair renamed the Labour Party New Labour. Starmer should properly nail it on and call it the "I Can't Believe It's Not Tory" Labour Party or more simply the "Continuity Conservative Party" (especially as the official Conservative Party are currently setting their own party on fire.


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## ska invita (Tuesday at 3:00 PM)

NoXion said:


> I don't think the constituency of "centrist dads" is big enough to carry Labour into power. They've made themselves utterly pointless.


its the infamous Tory/Lab swing seats though isnt it, thats what all policy is driven towards winning


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## NoXion (Tuesday at 3:27 PM)

ska invita said:


> its the infamous Tory/Lab swing seats though isnt it, thats what all policy is driven towards winning



Can't help but think that a political system which relies on a small handful of people who seemingly only ever want different shades of "fucking cunt", is more than a little bit broken.


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## gosub (Tuesday at 3:33 PM)

NoXion said:


> Can't help but think that a political system which relies on a small handful of people who seemingly only ever want different shades of "fucking cunt", is more than a little bit broken.


Seems more like the global norm to me


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## Kevbad the Bad (Tuesday at 5:05 PM)

redsquirrel said:


> UKIP were the best challenger in Clacton and Rochester and Stroud. It's not impossible that they (or their equivalent) will be the closest placed challenger in some deep blue seats this time around.
> 
> This is not a smear, it is the taking your stated position to its logical conclusion. If your "top priority" is to stop a Tory government then you should advocate a vote for any party that will deny them a seat.
> If you are only advocating that people vote Labour (Or Liberal? Or SNP?) then by definition your priority is not _just_ to stop a Tory government. And in fact is not different in principle to the position outlined by kabbes, it is just that he draws the line of 'acceptable/useful' party at a different point to you.
> ...


The only good reason for anyone to vote UKIP (or Reform UK), is for right wing Tories to vote for them, thus splitting the Tory vote.


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## Jeff Robinson (Tuesday at 5:51 PM)

The lion-share of the blame for the ascendency of the Revisionist Starmer Clique must fall squarely with the electorate. If in December 2019 they hadn't allowed themselves to whipped up in an anti-socialist frenzy by the rightwing and liberal rags there could have been some space for leftwing politics in the electoral process. The fact that the electorate overwhelmingly opted for clowncar capitalism over social democracy meant the revisionist degeneration of labour was all but guaranteed.


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## ska invita (Tuesday at 6:06 PM)

Jeff Robinson said:


> The lion-share of the blame for the ascendency of the Revisionist Starmer Clique must fall squarely with the electorate.


i blame the labour party members who chose him as leader myself

brexiteers won the last election


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## SpookyFrank (Tuesday at 6:31 PM)

ska invita said:


> i blame the labour party members who chose him as leader myself
> 
> brexiteers won the last election



There was a fucking dreadful slate of candidates tbf.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Tuesday at 8:49 PM)

ska invita said:


> i blame the labour party members who chose him as leader myself
> 
> brexiteers won the last election



Yeah, they got mugged off. Starmer presented himself as someone who would continue Corbyn’s socialist agenda but with the slick communication strategy of the Blairist clique. Of course it turned out to be a lie, a but a seductive one in the aftermath of anti-socialist, reactionary nationalist uprising of December 2019. But the desperation amongst the Labour rank was in the shadow of the political savagery unleashed by the electorate’s counter-revolutionary temper tantrum.


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## 8ball (Tuesday at 11:47 PM)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Starmer presented himself as someone who would continue Corbyn’s socialist agenda but with the slick communication strategy of the Blairist clique.



Maybe I missed this, but I def don’t think remember it.


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## ska invita (Wednesday at 8:44 AM)

8ball said:


> Maybe I missed this, but I def don’t think remember it.



you missed it, thats exactly what he did, suckered loads of people, some of whom are now apologising publicly on social media for being duped


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## 8ball (Wednesday at 12:12 PM)

ska invita said:


> you missed it, thats exactly what he did, suckered loads of people, some of whom are now apologising publicly on social media for being duped



Fair enough.  I don’t really recall him as representing much more than a haircut when he came along.


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## _Russ_ (Wednesday at 12:26 PM)

ska invita said:


> i blame the labour party members who chose him as leader myself


Yep, up there with the knobs voting not to have Proportional representation and keeping  fptp


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## redsquirrel (Wednesday at 1:28 PM)

_Russ_ said:


> Yep, up there with the knobs voting not to have Proportional representation and keeping  fptp


When did this vote happen? Are you referring to some internal Labour Party debate? Or the pro-LibDem referendum on AV (not PR)?


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## Elpenor (Wednesday at 7:56 PM)

ruffneck23 said:


> Well it seems he has a new fan.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Assume this is the former rail minister?


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## ska invita (Wednesday at 9:01 PM)

Saw this and thought of you


----------

