# Is there a serious market for out of date films?



## stowpirate (Mar 6, 2010)

Is there a serious market for out of date films?  I can get my hands on tens of thousands of these 35mm Kodak iso 400 24 exposure colour film for 20p each - possibly less if I buy a few thousand. However the film expired in 2006. If I dump a load on ebay is there a market there or will it just drive prices down even further? Or should I just buy a few hundred for my own use?


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## Herbsman. (Mar 7, 2010)

google and find out


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## miss minnie (Mar 7, 2010)

If you can't flog em you can always have fun with the cannisters


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## Stanley Edwards (Mar 7, 2010)

All you need to do is stick those there pics on Ebay and find out.


Actually, I may do it myself


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## stowpirate (Mar 7, 2010)

miss minnie said:


> If you can't flog em you can always have fun with the cannisters



60k of these films available  

The cheap cameras that came with them are apparently being binned 





Stanley Edwards said:


> All you need to do is stick those there pics on Ebay and find out.
> 
> 
> Actually, I may do it myself



Last lot of these I watched on ebay went for four pound 74p plus two pound postage albet no nice photos of the items. I am thinking presentation might sell them.  So i have listed them and will see what happens


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## ViolentPanda (Mar 7, 2010)

stowpirate said:


> 60k of these films available
> 
> The cheap cameras that came with them are apparently being binned
> 
> ...



Not a bad mark-up you're hoping for, either!


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## mincepie (Mar 7, 2010)

Come to think of it I have a few in my parents freezer. Maybe 50 neg and 5 slide films.

They will be past date, but keeping them frozen helps keep them good.


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## Forkboy (Mar 9, 2010)

Couple of months ago got a £1.50 eBay special of a Koda Instamatic 104 in box with original film, expiry date May 1979!!  nd it's 126 film..

conversley, got three rolls of Kodachrome 64 for £24 at Chrstmas out of Boots in Scotland, current price on eBay is £20 per out of date roll.. o.0


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 9, 2010)

Out of curiosity, what's the latest anyone has managed to get a film developed (with decent pictures) after the expiry date on the box, or after you've taken photos?

I've found rolls of film that I've used that are years old.  I'm wondering whether to waste money seeing if anything appears if I try to get them developed or whether it'll be a complete waste of money


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## 19sixtysix (Mar 9, 2010)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Out of curiosity, what's the latest anyone has managed to get a film developed (with decent pictures) after the expiry date on the box, or after you've taken photos?
> 
> I've found rolls of film that I've used that are years old.  I'm wondering whether to waste money seeing if anything appears if I try to get them developed or whether it'll be a complete waste of money



Should be fine. I've developed a 40 year old b&w film before now.


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## dweller (Mar 9, 2010)

I've recently noticed some people posting photos on flickr using out of date film in old cameras to get a cool vintage look 
 as all the colours are off.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 9, 2010)

19sixtysix said:


> Should be fine. I've developed a 40 year old b&w film before now.




Really?  

Worth taking the chance then I reckon.

I'll let you know if I get 24/36 pictures of nothingness


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## ViolentPanda (Mar 9, 2010)

dweller said:


> I've recently noticed some people posting photos on flickr using out of date film in old cameras to get a cool vintage look
> as all the colours are off.



Depends on the age, though. It generally has to be 20+ years old for the dye elements to have started degrading, so getting the "faded" look is a bit hit and miss, especially if the person selling the film is anal like me, and stores their film in a freezer (or even a fridge).


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## ViolentPanda (Mar 9, 2010)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Really?
> 
> Worth taking the chance then I reckon.
> 
> I'll let you know if I get 24/36 pictures of nothingness



As long as the film hasn't got damp (which causes the emulsion to lift) or too hot (with can cause the emulsion to crack), you should get pictures, albeit perhaps faded.


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## stowpirate (Mar 9, 2010)

So I need to keep it for twenty years to let it mature


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## ViolentPanda (Mar 10, 2010)

stowpirate said:


> So I need to keep it for twenty years to let it mature



Not really. I'm sure there are plenty of users of colour print film who're happy to buy slightly out of date film that shouldn't manifest *any* "mechanical" issues.

Might be worth keeping some back and storing them on an east-facing window sill for a couple of years, though, in the name of science.


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## stowpirate (Mar 12, 2010)

In the end I  dumped ten of them on ebay to see what might happen. 

Now i am getting asked where I got the film from which is a bit self defeating if I tell them  

Can I link to the sale or will the editor tamp on me?


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## boskysquelch (Mar 12, 2010)

oh fuck off with yer draggin' boot_sale_like shite onto the Net.

adding film to the Net is jus extra dollops to the mire. 


*and where do you think all these dollops endup? .....in my fkkn Land, Air & Sea.


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## ViolentPanda (Mar 12, 2010)

boskysquelch said:


> oh fuck off with yer draggin' boot_sale_like shite onto the Net.
> 
> adding film to the Net is jus extra dollops to the mire.
> 
> ...



Poor old Mr. Grumpy.


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## ViolentPanda (Mar 12, 2010)

stowpirate said:


> In the end I  dumped ten of them on ebay to see what might happen.
> 
> Now i am getting asked where I got the film from which is a bit self defeating if I tell them
> 
> Can I link to the sale or will the editor tamp on me?



More than likely. 

All they've got to do is a search for "out of date film" in the photography section of e-bay. That's how I found it.

Talking of old film, I was going through some old bags of tat that have been stashed under the bed for about 15 years, and found half a dozen B & W rollfilms that I'd exposed but hadn't developed (but will as soon as I've got a mo), and a handful of the old Agfa 400 print films, which I think I'll use up in the near future.


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## boskysquelch (Mar 13, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> Poor old Mr. Grumpy.



slaggin filum since I got here.


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## ViolentPanda (Mar 13, 2010)

boskysquelch said:


> slaggin filum since I got here.



It's because Mammon stole your soul, bosky.


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## boskysquelch (Mar 13, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> Mammon stole your soul, bosky.



nah it stole all me shekels. 

*gave up my car over Xmas, cancelled my hosting of 9 years last night, just went to upload a pickee...doh!  ...& later this week will be teh Internets into the house...

The last time I can remember being able to afford to process film(both financially & ethically)  was last century.


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## stowpirate (Mar 13, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> More than likely.
> 
> All they've got to do is a search for "out of date film" in the photography section of e-bay. That's how I found it.
> 
> Talking of old film, I was going through some old bags of tat that have been stashed under the bed for about 15 years, and found half a dozen B & W rollfilms that I'd exposed but hadn't developed (but will as soon as I've got a mo), and a handful of the old Agfa 400 print films, which I think I'll use up in the near future.



I am pleased with the sale. More than doubled my initial investment so I have dumped another ten films on ebay. Could be the start of a little money earner 

What camera did you use with the roll film - Rolleicord ?


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## ViolentPanda (Mar 13, 2010)

stowpirate said:


> I am pleased with the sale. More than doubled my initial investment so I have dumped another ten films on ebay. Could be the start of a little money earner
> 
> What camera did you use with the roll film - Rolleicord ?



I may be a Jew, but I'm not a Rothschild! 

I *suspect* that a couple of them are from my Mamiya C33, and that the rest are from an Ensign Selfix 420






that I picked up for £5 in Watford Indoor Market about 15 years ago.


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## stowpirate (Mar 13, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> I may be a Jew, but I'm not a Rothschild!
> 
> I *suspect* that a couple of them are from my Mamiya C33, and that the rest are from an Ensign Selfix 420
> 
> ...



Funny that I am just about to sell an Ensign Auto-range 220 folding camera with a British Epsilon shutter and 75mm f4.5 Ensar lens. Not sure if I am going to sell it on ebay or try a camera collection downsizing web page. I paid two quid for mine a couple of years ago at a car boot sale. Looking at ebay they do not appear to be worth anything - it is a beautiful camera and takes acceptable photos 






From test film


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## ViolentPanda (Mar 13, 2010)

stowpirate said:


> Funny that I am just about to sell an Ensign Auto-range 220 folding camera with a British Epsilon shutter and 75mm f4.5 Ensar lens. Not sure if I am going to sell it on ebay or try a camera collection downsizing web page. I paid two quid for mine a couple of years ago at a car boot sale. Looking at ebay they do not appear to be worth anything - it is a beautiful camera and takes acceptable photos
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Is it in reasonable working order and condition? 

If so, I'll happily PM you a punt (and don't worry, it'll be more than £2! ).


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## stowpirate (Mar 14, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> Is it in reasonable working order and condition?
> 
> If so, I'll happily PM you a punt (and don't worry, it'll be more than £2! ).



It is in good working condition complete with a leather case. The rangefinder is accurate but a fraction out at infinity.  If you are interested I will up-load some photos to flickr later this week. I am in the process of down sizing my collection so we can move house. Them hills in the north are beckoning 

I have loads of classic cameras about to be dumped on ebay 

Praktica SLR's by the skip load, Zenit SLR's, Lunbitel TLR's and even a rare if rather crude copy of a Rolleicord a Hacoflex TLR. 

Thats done it the editor is going to stamp on me now. But at least I have not linked to any ebay sales


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## story (Mar 14, 2010)

dweller said:


> I've recently noticed some people posting photos on flickr using out of date film in old cameras to get a cool vintage look
> as all the colours are off.



I've used out of date film and I really loved the effects.


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## ViolentPanda (Mar 14, 2010)

stowpirate said:


> It is in good working condition complete with a leather case. The rangefinder is accurate but a fraction out at infinity.  If you are interested I will up-load some photos to flickr later this week.


Cool, I'm interested. Let me know the url once you've uploaded the pictures.  


> I am in the process of down sizing my collection so we can move house. Them hills in the north are beckoning


<tongue-in-cheek>
You're moving to North Lincs or Yorkshire, then?</tongue-in-cheek>


> I have loads of classic cameras about to be dumped on ebay.
> 
> Praktica SLR's by the skip load, Zenit SLR's, Lunbitel TLR's and even a rare if rather crude copy of a Rolleicord a Hacoflex TLR.
> 
> Thats done it the editor is going to stamp on me now. But at least I have not linked to any ebay sales


I'll have to keep an eye out. I've been looking to pick up a Lubitel that isn't having silly money charged for it (I only really want the taking lens and shutter).


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## stowpirate (Mar 14, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> Cool, I'm interested. Let me know the url once you've uploaded the pictures.
> 
> <tongue-in-cheek>
> You're moving to North Lincs or Yorkshire, then?</tongue-in-cheek>
> ...



That would be wild parts of Shropshire, Lake District, or Snowdonia for my other half. But for me I want to move away from the modern world to somewhere like Co. Kerry Ireland or remote area of Nothumberland like Kielder Water or even north Scotland and beyond 

Lubitel cameras are fetching silly money


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## ViolentPanda (Mar 14, 2010)

stowpirate said:


> That would be wild parts of Shropshire, Lake District, or Snowdonia for my other half. But for me I want to move away from the modern world to somewhere like Co. Kerry Ireland or remote area of Nothumberland like Kielder Water or even north Scotland and beyond


Let's face it though, compared to the part of the country you currently live in, Richmond Park is "wild"! 


> Lubitel cameras are fetching silly money


I've consistently seen Lubitel 2s, Lubitel I66Bs and Lubitel 166Us going for £20+ on e-bay, with mint ones w/ he extra smelly e/r case and the filters going for £30-40.


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## stowpirate (Mar 14, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> Let's face it though, compared to the part of the country you currently live in, Richmond Park is "wild"!



We have a local triangle Eye, Southwold, Orford that is unspoilt but no hills. South of the A14 it might as well be central London. The kray twins and amy winehouse  have links with Bildeston Suffolk - nice walking country but traffic is awful  



ViolentPanda said:


> I've consistently seen Lubitel 2s, Lubitel I66Bs and Lubitel 166Us going for £20+ on e-bay, with mint ones w/ he extra smelly e/r case and the filters going for £30-40.



With the filters it could be the Leica connection? I have a feeling that the Lubitel is an underrated camera but not worth the silly money they are now fetching on ebay. In ideal shooting conditions that three element Russian lens can give the best a run for its money, as you go towards the extremes its limitations become obvious


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## ViolentPanda (Mar 15, 2010)

stowpirate said:


> We have a local triangle Eye, Southwold, Orford that is unspoilt but no hills. South of the A14 it might as well be central London. The kray twins and amy winehouse  have links with Bildeston Suffolk - nice walking country but traffic is awful


Something my parents (on the north Norfolk coast) also moan about, as they're keen foot-sloggers too.


> With the filters it could be the Leica connection? I have a feeling that the Lubitel is an underrated camera but not worth the silly money they are now fetching on ebay.


I agree, I mean someone was selling 2nd hand ones for £70 plus postage, and had bids!! 
From what I can make out, getting the "complete kit" (including the 35mm adaptor and the filters) is a fad among the _Lomo-istas_ at the mo, so people are taking advantage and separating fools from their money. 


> In ideal shooting conditions that three element Russian lens can give the best a run for its money, as you go towards the extremes its limitations become obvious



The fall-off is pretty grim, wide-open, I agree. 
I'm after one to try as the front-end of a "home-made" camera using a Mamiya Press 6 x 7 back and a jerry-built aluminium, plywood and epoxy body.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 15, 2010)

Well I'm disppointed to report that the price of developing seems to have shot up in the last few years.

I took two films (24 and 36 exposure) to a chemist to be developed and they're charging £14


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## stowpirate (Mar 15, 2010)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Well I'm disppointed to report that the price of developing seems to have shot up in the last few years.
> 
> I took two films (24 and 36 exposure) to a chemist to be developed and they're charging £14



Asda are doing colour 35mm films processing at  £2.97. Two quid a film and 97 pence for the CD, maximum four per CD. Depending on how busy they are that is a on the hour service. I take it you are talking about B&W and medium format ?


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## ViolentPanda (Mar 15, 2010)

stowpirate said:


> Asda are doing colour 35mm films processing at  £2.97. Two quid a film and 97 pence for the CD, maximum four per CD. Depending on how busy they are that is a on the hour service. I take it you are talking about B&W and medium format ?



I suspect she's talking about a couple of 35mm colour print films.


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## Vintage Paw (Mar 16, 2010)

Miserable bosky is miserable - this is why you sent me your old film then? 

stow - I use out of date film all the time ... I might be willing to take a few off your hands if the price was right.


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## boskysquelch (Mar 16, 2010)

Vintage Paw said:


> Miserable bosky is miserable - this is why you sent me your old film then?



yup... that was film I was given_made to use for work.


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## Vintage Paw (Mar 16, 2010)

Hey, what was that music video you were in? I was trying to remember the other day but couldn't.


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## boskysquelch (Mar 16, 2010)

Vintage Paw said:


> Hey, what was that music video you were in? I was trying to remember the other day but couldn't.



Bastard...there was more than one...but I did share the one with the former Eastender...the blonde one that buggered of to Paris in the storyline?... I think?


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## boskysquelch (Mar 16, 2010)

found it!!! left it elsewhere.


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## Vintage Paw (Mar 16, 2010)

boskysquelch said:


> Bastard...there was more than one...but I did share the one with the former Eastender...the blonde one that buggered of to Paris in the storyline?... I think?



Oh yes, I remember her. What was her name? Justine? Hmm. I was trying to convince him indoors it was Girls on Film, simply because there was a camera in it. But it wasn't.


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## Vintage Paw (Mar 16, 2010)

Wait, where have you left it? 

I want to see it, dammit


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## boskysquelch (Mar 16, 2010)

Vintage Paw said:


> Wait, where have you left it?
> 
> I want to see it, dammit



it's in The Bin.


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## boskysquelch (Mar 16, 2010)

Vintage Paw said:


> I was trying to convince him indoors it was Girls on Film, simply because there was a camera in it. But it wasn't.




That was Kevin Godeley of 10cc fame.. I worked for him but not on that shoot... I was working at the time with MGMM assisting the guy who wnt on to do Father Ted(he was fresh to London from Irish telly)...in a circle of connections ...but I'd started out in Chelsea Wharf with a photographer who studio was in the same block as Godley & Creme...got to know them...got work through them over the years sort of thang.... but I was more on the lighting/still side of things then were also doing...as in..


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 16, 2010)

stowpirate said:


> Asda are doing colour 35mm films processing at  £2.97. Two quid a film and 97 pence for the CD, maximum four per CD. Depending on how busy they are that is a on the hour service. I take it you are talking about B&W and medium format ?


 
I'm talking about normal colour film that I found in a drawer that I used before I got my digital camera.I even asked if they charge if the prints don't come out and he said yes.


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## ViolentPanda (Mar 16, 2010)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I'm talking about normal colour film that I found in a drawer that I used before I got my digital camera.I even asked if they charge if the prints don't come out and he said yes.



They don't really have a choice but to charge you, as they've still had to put your film through the machine and process it.


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## stowpirate (Mar 16, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> They don't really have a choice but to charge you, as they've still had to put your film through the machine and process it.



My local Boots used to be good and refund you without question. Asda depends on who is serving you. The local manager can give you the run around but if you have your wits you can normally find some reason that it was the developing, scanning and not the film.


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## ViolentPanda (Mar 16, 2010)

stowpirate said:


> My local Boots used to be good and refund you without question. Asda depends on who is serving you. The local manager can give you the run around but if you have your wits you can normally find some reason that it was the developing, scanning and not the film.



I don't mind pulling that in a supermarket, but when it's an independent chemist using an all-in-one machine, I always feel a bit sorry for them.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 16, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> They don't really have a choice but to charge you, as they've still had to put your film through the machine and process it.




I've been to chemists before where they charge a set fee plus per picture, so if only 20 out of 24 come out, they charge the set fee then the cost of the 20 photos


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 16, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> I don't mind pulling that in a supermarket, but when it's an independent chemist using an all-in-one machine, I always feel a bit sorry for them.




Most chemists send them away though.


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## ViolentPanda (Mar 17, 2010)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Most chemists send them away though.



The three I used to use in Streatham all had their own machines where you just attach the tongue of the film to a leader and off it goes through the developing and printing processes.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 17, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> The three I used to use in Streatham all had their own machines where you just attach the tongue of the film to a leader and off it goes through the developing and printing processes.




I've only ever used Westbury's in Streatham.  Used to use chemist on Brixton Hill or shops near work.

Went to Westbury's today but they weren't ready so have to go back.


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## ViolentPanda (Mar 17, 2010)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I've only ever used Westbury's in Streatham.  Used to use chemist on Brixton Hill or shops near work.
> 
> Went to Westbury's today but they weren't ready so have to go back.



I've refused to use Westbury's for ages now, because the useless sods (and their other store, Baba's chemists at the bottom of Tulse Hill) usually never had half the stuff on my prescription.


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## ViolentPanda (Mar 21, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> Cool, I'm interested. Let me know the url once you've uploaded the pictures.



Oi, stowpirate!! In case you've forgotten!!!


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## stowpirate (Mar 22, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> Oi, stowpirate!! In case you've forgotten!!!



I was just about to dump it on ebay 

This is about the point in my photostream that I uploaded them. It is in good working condition but a bit worn around the edges.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/sovietcamera/4437108959/in/photostream/

Let us know what you think. I have a few other cameras to dispose of while you decide what its worth


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## ViolentPanda (Mar 22, 2010)

stowpirate said:


> I was just about to dump it on ebay
> 
> This is about the point in my photostream that I uploaded them. It is in good working condition but a bit worn around the edges.
> 
> ...



It looks pretty much as you described, a "bit worn", but as I only ever buy cameras to use rather than to correct, that doesn't really trouble me.

I'll PM you an opening offer, feel free to laugh scornfully.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 23, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> I've refused to use Westbury's for ages now, because the useless sods (and their other store, Baba's chemists at the bottom of Tulse Hill) usually never had half the stuff on my prescription.




Well considering the prices I gave were for 24 hour developing, it took 3 and a half sodding days.  You'd think they'd offer me a discount.  

BTW:  The photos turned out fine and it turns out that those particular rolls of film were 10-12 years old.


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## ViolentPanda (Mar 27, 2010)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Well considering the prices I gave were for 24 hour developing, it took 3 and a half sodding days.  You'd think they'd offer me a discount.


Fuck an "offer", I'd have demanded money back! 


> BTW:  The photos turned out fine and it turns out that those particular rolls of film were 10-12 years old.


Cool.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 27, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> Fuck an "offer", I'd have demanded money back!
> 
> Cool.




I think I even have some cartridge film, but that's gotta be over 20 years old  so not sure whether to try risking having that developed

I wonder if anyone uses cartridge anymore


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## stowpirate (Mar 27, 2010)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I think I even have some cartridge film, but that's gotta be over 20 years old  so not sure whether to try risking having that developed
> 
> I wonder if anyone uses cartridge anymore



I had some, sold it last year at a car boot sale for a fiver. I did use some in an old Agfa Karat cartridge system camera and was pleased with the results. It came all the way from Alberta!







The camera was like this one but more worn. This I think is the most beautiful camera ever made. It dates from the late 1930's early 1940's period 

If you want cheap reliable developing head for ASDA.


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## ViolentPanda (Mar 27, 2010)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I think I even have some cartridge film, but that's gotta be over 20 years old  so not sure whether to try risking having that developed
> 
> I wonder if anyone uses cartridge anymore



You can still buy 110 and 126 cartridges (I recently bought a dozen 110 films myself) and get them developed at specialist places. 
As for age, given that cartridges actually protect film as well as 35mm films are, I'd chance it.


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## ViolentPanda (Mar 27, 2010)

stowpirate said:


> I had some, sold it last year at a car boot sale for a fiver. I did use some in an old Agfa Karat cartridge system camera and was pleased with the results. It came all the way from Alberta!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I've got a jammed up but nice-looking Agfa Karat in my "to repair" box. £5mm rather than the karat/rapid cartridge though.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 28, 2010)

stowpirate said:


> I had some, sold it last year at a car boot sale for a fiver. I did use some in an old Agfa Karat cartridge system camera and was pleased with the results. It came all the way from Alberta!
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Oh, that's a posh camera.  Mine were all those little oblong thingies (I'm sure there was a name for them but can't remember).  I'd imagine I binned them but still have a couple of cartridges floating around to be developed (although I may have binned them as well in one of my flat blitzes)


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## ViolentPanda (Mar 29, 2010)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Oh, that's a posh camera.  Mine were all those little oblong thingies (I'm sure there was a name for them but can't remember).  I'd imagine I binned them but still have a couple of cartridges floating around to be developed (although I may have binned them as well in one of my flat blitzes)



This type





or this type?


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 30, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> This type
> 
> 
> 
> ...



bottom one


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## ViolentPanda (Mar 30, 2010)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> bottom one



110 cartridges.

You can get them developed here.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 31, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> 110 cartridges.
> 
> You can get them developed here.




Cheers VP.  Think I'll see if there's somewhere a bit more local


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## stowpirate (Apr 10, 2010)

I have another batch of these out of date films available. If any body is seriously interested please private message me for details.
The editor is going to stamp on me now 






Any ideas on how to get rid off fifty LeClick focus free cameras would be much appreciated


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## Vintage Paw (Apr 11, 2010)

Ebay, bids start at 99p, market them as the next lomo trash cam - first few will sell at 99p, start a thread on a lomo/trashcam group on flickr, say how great and hip they are, next few will go for £2.50, eventually the last few will go for £10


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## stowpirate (Apr 11, 2010)

Vintage Paw said:


> Ebay, bids start at 99p, market them as the next lomo trash cam - first few will sell at 99p, start a thread on a lomo/trashcam group on flickr, say how great and hip they are, next few will go for £2.50, eventually the last few will go for £10



These are quality kit compared to a Lomo & Holga types 


I think I might try your idea.


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