# SteamOS



## Fez909 (Sep 23, 2013)

Steam have just announced a gaming/media OS based on Linux. Not a lot of details on how this will work yet except it's "for living room machines".

The year of Linux on the...telly? 

http://store.steampowered.com/livingroom/SteamOS/


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## Fez909 (Sep 23, 2013)

Ah, after having read it a bit more carefully, it seems this is going to be similar to OnLive - only you're streaming your games from another PC in the house, not over the internet. This might have legs!


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## tommers (Sep 23, 2013)

Is that not like the big picture thing?


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## Kid_Eternity (Sep 23, 2013)

Here's a prediction: it'll be as successful as Ouya.


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## golightly (Sep 23, 2013)

Even the beeb has a news item about it


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## Fez909 (Sep 23, 2013)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Here's a prediction: it'll be as successful as Ouya.



Nope.

The games already exist for this. Steam claiming that it'll work with 3000 games already. Linux > Android. Valve > some start-up.

This will be much bigger than Ouya.


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## elbows (Sep 24, 2013)

I'll wait for their other announcements this week before forming an opinion.


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## Sunray (Sep 24, 2013)

It's an Irrelevant device.


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## Crispy (Sep 24, 2013)

Fez909 said:


> Ah, after having read it a bit more carefully, it seems this is going to be similar to OnLive - only you're streaming your games from another PC in the house, not over the internet. This might have legs!


That's just one thing it does.

Otherwise, it's just another linux distribution, built around running Steam and its games.

It will fail.

Unless HL3 is an exclusive for it.

In which case, people will install it, play HL3 and then uninstall it.


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## Kid_Eternity (Sep 24, 2013)

Fez909 said:


> Nope.
> 
> The games already exist for this. Steam claiming that it'll work with 3000 games already. Linux > Android. Valve > some start-up.
> 
> This will be much bigger than Ouya.



Doesn't mean it'll succeed against the Sony's, Micosoft's and even the Apple's of this world. It's a dead in the water idea that won't succeed. Mark my words.


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## Fez909 (Sep 24, 2013)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Doesn't mean it'll succeed against the Sony's, Micosoft's and even the Apple's of this world. It's a dead in the water idea that won't succeed. Mark my words.



ok  

I love how you're all writing it off (with the exception of elbows) when you haven't even seen it yet. Nor have the other two big announcements been made (one of which is likely to be the SteamBox - pretty major, in my eyes).

I like the sound of it, but of course will need some more details. I think it's got potential. 

Apple are an irrelevance to Valve because they don't even compete in the same space. They're going after Microsoft and Sony here, no doubt.


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## Kid_Eternity (Sep 24, 2013)

I'll lay good money this device won't sell more than a million units in its first year.


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## Fez909 (Sep 24, 2013)

Kid_Eternity said:


> I'll lay good money this device won't sell more than a million units in its first year.



Firstly, it isn't a device. Secondly, it's free.


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## Sunray (Sep 24, 2013)

Skipping the gun wrt SteamBox.

I can see the need for it from Valves perspective and a small part of me wants it to be a success to some degree. But other people will have to make it a success as I'll not buy in until they do.

But MS and Sony are so huge in that space, you are guaranteed that buying a PS4 you'll get some decent games.  Wondering if Steam will be on the PS4 like it is on the PS3 or if this puts paid to that?


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## FridgeMagnet (Sep 24, 2013)

It's clearly designed to be used in conjunction with some sort of Linux console - there's no point to it if you have to run it on a PC. We already have PCs that run Steam and it won't be any more efficient somehow than that, I'd imagine. I suppose it might gain some speed from being completely stripped down and game optimised but even so.


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## Crispy (Sep 24, 2013)

PS4 and Xbox are subsidised, which gets the price way down. MS and Sony get a cut of every game, which is where they profit. So do Valve with their 30% from Steam, but are they willing to subsidise the hardware?


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## bmd (Sep 24, 2013)

Kid_Eternity said:


> I'll lay good money this device won't sell more than a million units in its first year.



Why are you so against this?

Will be interesting to see what their bods come up with as regards to improvements in Linux. They're looking at audio performance and input latency for example. I'm intrigued.


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## Fez909 (Sep 24, 2013)

If the plan is to run games natively then this could be great news for Linux users, and perhaps a massive blow to Windows as the home of PC gaming.


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## Sunray (Sep 25, 2013)

Fez909 said:


> If the plan is to run games natively then this could be great news for Linux users, and perhaps a massive blow to Windows as the home of PC gaming.



The problem with that plan is development tool for windows are on another planet with regards to their level of sophistication compared to the ones on Linux.  And the number of people who use those tools for hire is a lot less than for PC's.


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## kabbes (Sep 25, 2013)

I've reached an age whereby I no longer understand tech industry announcements.

What exactly am I being sold here?  I have a laptop that I connect to my TV using an HDMI cable.  What advantage does the Steam Box give me over just using Steam on my laptop?


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## tommers (Sep 25, 2013)

kabbes said:


> I've reached an age whereby I no longer understand tech industry announcements.
> 
> What exactly am I being sold here?  I have a laptop that I connect to my TV using an HDMI cable.  What advantage does the Steam Box give me over just using Steam on my laptop?



It'll really piss KE off.


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## Fez909 (Sep 25, 2013)

Sunray said:


> The problem with that plan is development tool for windows are on another planet with regards to their level of sophistication compared to the ones on Linux.  And the number of people who use those tools for hire is a lot less than for PC's.



Is that true? Linux has always been the platform of choice for developers. Fair enough the games run on Windows, but don't they develop them on Linux? I know it's true for most other types of program, but perhaps not for games. The tools are not the issue, the driver compatibility is.


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## tommers (Sep 25, 2013)

Steam machines confirmed.
http://store.steampowered.com/livingroom/SteamMachines/


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## elbows (Sep 25, 2013)

Fez909 said:


> Is that true? Linux has always been the platform of choice for developers. Fair enough the games run on Windows, but don't they develop them on Linux? I know it's true for most other types of program, but perhaps not for games. The tools are not the issue, the driver compatibility is.



Not that simple either. Tools can certainly be an issue, and if you are developing a DirectX game then developing it on Linux isn't going to add up. Devil in detail though, depends what part of the system you are developing. Geek love for Linux is not universal.

I don't want to derail the thread but just to give a quick example: Unity can now spit out games that run on Linux. But the Unity editor only runs on Windows or Mac.


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## elbows (Sep 25, 2013)

What some developers will prefer with Steam compared to consoles is that its a relatively expensive pain in the bum to develop for Microsoft & Sony consoles. Just because the corporations involved make it that way and want their cut. This keeps threatening to change but some of the progress on this front is way less than advertised. 

Steams potential advantage only matters if enough users are on their platform though. At least they aren't starting completely from scratch due to their historic success targeting Windows etc.


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## Fez909 (Sep 25, 2013)

Well, by allowing you to stream from Windows, they've made it so that they don't need to develop for the SteamOS. Which is both a positive and a negative for Valve. Positive in that all the games you want will be available; negative in that no one need ever develop a native game.

Also noticed this on their announcement page:


> Am I going to be using a mouse and a keyboard in the living-room?
> If you want. But Steam and SteamOS work well with gamepads, too. Stay tuned, though - we have some more to say very soon on the topic of input.


They've been filing patents around joypads in recent months/years, so I reckon the next announcement is something related to that. Some innovative way of controlling games which are better known for mouse input? Wishful thinking on my part there


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## elbows (Sep 25, 2013)

Anyways the fact they've gone for a multiple hardware partner approach to to the Steam Machines, and have given no solid specs or indications of price ranges, means it will be quite a long time before I can draw any conclusions. The final announcement this week looks to be to do with gamepads/input methods. Wake me sometime in 2014.


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## elbows (Sep 25, 2013)

Fez909 said:


> negative in that no one need ever develop a native game.



I'm not sure thats much of a negative for them really. It buys them lots of time to evolve this stuff gradually. And if it catches on developers will quite possibly make the effort to do native SteamOS apps anyway, if for example performance is way better than streaming from windows and lots of steam machines have been sold. Depends on the size of the developers and what tools they are using too, e.g. as I already mentioned games made with Unity can run on Linux these days. And games made with Unity can be delivered via Steam.


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## Sunray (Sep 26, 2013)

elbows said:


> What some developers will prefer with Steam compared to consoles is that its a *relatively expensive pain in the bum* to develop for Microsoft & Sony consoles. Just because the corporations involved make it that way and want their cut. This keeps threatening to change but some of the progress on this front is way less than advertised.
> 
> Steams potential advantage only matters if enough users are on their platform though. At least they aren't starting completely from scratch due to their historic success targeting Windows etc.



Not any more, the new consoles are very tightly specified PC's.  Both running x86 hardware and graphics.  Previously XBox was IBM's PowerPC and PS3 was the Cell and that multicore architecture Sony though was great but was difficult to program.

A tightly defined spec means drivers are less of an issue but I'm guessing that Rockstar didn't use Unity for GTA V.


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## elbows (Sep 26, 2013)

Sunray said:


> Not any more, the new consoles are very tightly specified PC's.  Both running x86 hardware and graphics.  Previously XBox was IBM's PowerPC and PS3 was the Cell and that multicore architecture Sony though was great but was difficult to program.
> 
> A tightly defined spec means drivers are less of an issue but I'm guessing that Rockstar didn't use Unity for GTA V.



The expense I was referring to is in being accepted by the relevant corporations as a developer. e.g. being allowed to publish titles and having easy and cheap access to the development version of the console hardware.

At times these barriers sound like they are going to vanish, with indie titles being embraced, but the good news stories are rarely the whole story and the commitment to indie developers tends to be a bit shaky.

The latest chapter was Microsoft being all over the place, first making it sound like indie games were not welcome on the xbox one, only to then play the opposite mood music by saying that any xbox one console will be able to be used for development. I'll just have to wait and see what the picture really turns out to be.


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## Kid_Eternity (Sep 27, 2013)

kabbes said:


> I've reached an age whereby I no longer understand tech industry announcements.
> 
> What exactly am I being sold here?  I have a laptop that I connect to my TV using an HDMI cable.  What advantage does the Steam Box give me over just using Steam on my laptop?



It gives you the ability to be a loss making minority that helps Steam claim they are the future of front room gaming while the rest of the industry dies laughing. But at least you'll be able to look down on the idiots that bought into Ouya.


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Sep 27, 2013)

The new pad. Interesting idea, I'd quite like a go as think it's hard to predict what it's like with just pictures. Apparently the design may change after beta testing, but their testing a new concept.
















> Prominent are two trackpads, a dual-set of thumb-controlled circular surfaces. The trackpads are clickable, turning each into one giant button.
> 
> Square in the center is a high-resolution touchscreen, one that can translate discrete touch commands while also clicking like button. Thanks to deep Steam integration, the Controller's screen, when touched, will overlay its display onto whatever game is being played, so action can continue without having to dart eyes over to the gamepad.



Tech Radar


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## FridgeMagnet (Sep 27, 2013)

It's great, but nobody cares.


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Sep 27, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> It's great, but nobody cares.



I do 

Even if the console itself fails (I won't be buying one), it could be a good way to take PC gaming to the sofa.


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## FridgeMagnet (Sep 27, 2013)

It's not going to take PC gaming to the sofa because you can just play PC games on the sofa.


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Sep 27, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> It's not going to take PC gaming to the sofa because you can just play PC games on the sofa.



Yeah, but this could be better then conventional pads, but more convenient the a keyboard and mouse.


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## Crispy (Sep 27, 2013)

Interesting design. I already have a 360 controller hooked up to mine, so don't really feel the need


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## TruXta (Sep 27, 2013)

The high water mark of game controller design


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## FridgeMagnet (Sep 27, 2013)

.


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## Sunray (Sep 28, 2013)

Crispy said:


> Interesting design. I already have a 360 controller hooked up to mine, so don't really feel the need



Same here.

That looks like touch controls on a iPad which are not a great deal of fun as you keep losing your position.


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## Kid_Eternity (Sep 28, 2013)

Touch controls make sense on a tablet or phone because you're looking at the device your using to control the game. Not sure it'll be quite as good on a joypad that you spend very little time looking at while playing...

Looks nice design wise those, futuristic and shit.


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Sep 28, 2013)

I think the thing that would make it different to conventional touch screen, is that it's curved and contoured, so you can tell the position of your fingers far more easily.


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## fractionMan (Sep 28, 2013)

TruXta said:


> The high water mark of game controller design




Amigas had the hardware to make 2 button joysticks standard (it was the same port that could take 2 button mice iirc).  

But nobody ever did for some reason and we were stuck forever with single button games


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## elbows (Sep 29, 2013)

Some early comments on the controller from people who were given early access to a beta version:

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/...the_Steam_Controller_Heres_what_they_said.php


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## Kid_Eternity (Sep 29, 2013)

fractionMan said:


> Amigas had the hardware to make 2 button joysticks standard (it was the same port that could take 2 button mice iirc).
> 
> But nobody ever did for some reason and we were stuck forever with single button games



Had this lament so many times...


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## Sunray (Oct 1, 2013)

If Valve had completed the HL series, would anyone have even taken the slightest interest in this?


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## kabbes (Oct 1, 2013)




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## magneze (Jan 7, 2014)

> The first Steam Machines will be release this month in America, with prices ranging from £300 to an eye-watering £3,600.
> 
> Although there’s no more next generation consoles to be released this year Steam and Half-Life maker Valve will be overseeing the launch of the first Steam Machine as early as this month, in the US at least.
> 
> ...


http://metro.co.uk/2014/01/07/valve-unveils-13-new-steam-machine-specs-and-prices-4252587/

So ... just PCs then at mostly PC prices. Err. What was the point of this again?

No living room box. 

Valve fail.


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Jan 7, 2014)

I guess the only appeal may be that you don't have to buy windows.


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## Silva (Jan 8, 2014)

Global Stoner said:


> I guess the only appeal may be that you don't have to buy windows.


Except at those prices, you can buy a great gaming rig with a Windows license included.

I still see no value whatsoever in Steam boxes. They're a toy for the "Imma throwing money at my screen but steam promos don't start!!!!!11!!111one1!" crowd.


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## Sunray (Jan 8, 2014)

I'm warming to the idea of an open games console with a nice library of games.

My only issue is the choice of Linux for the SteamOS. I can see the logic to some extent but it limits the playable games on the platform at the start.  It also forces people away from the nice development tools from Microsoft the express version of which are all free.


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Jan 8, 2014)

fractionMan said:


> Amigas had the hardware to make 2 button joysticks standard (it was the same port that could take 2 button mice iirc).
> 
> But nobody ever did for some reason and we were stuck forever with single button games



Some consol ports like desert strike supported two button sticks and looked better on amiga!


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## Silva (Jan 8, 2014)

Sunray said:


> My only issue is the choice of Linux for the SteamOS. I can see the logic to some extent but it limits the playable games on the platform at the start.  It also forces people away from the nice development tools from Microsoft the express version of which are all free.


Because the whole hoopla about the steamboxes is not on "fearing Microsoft would lock out all digital distribution" and assorted boogeyman tactics, but all about valve wanting their own walled garden where they get a share of the profits on *all* software bought for it, which they cannot do with Windows, that has dozens of alternatives.


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## Kid_Eternity (Jan 9, 2014)

magneze said:


> http://metro.co.uk/2014/01/07/valve-unveils-13-new-steam-machine-specs-and-prices-4252587/
> 
> So ... just PCs then at mostly PC prices. Err. What was the point of this again?
> 
> ...



Total fail. The big hype was this was gonna take on consoles, looks like that's all horseshit.


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## Sunray (Jan 9, 2014)

Silva said:


> Because the whole hoopla about the steamboxes is not on "fearing Microsoft would lock out all digital distribution" and assorted boogeyman tactics, but all about valve wanting their own walled garden where they get a share of the profits on *all* software bought for it, which they cannot do with Windows, that has dozens of alternatives.



But its Linux, so its not a walled garden.  If hell froze over and EA decided to produce games for SteamOS, they could create and have a Linux version of origin?


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Jan 9, 2014)

Sunray said:


> But its Linux, so its not a walled garden.  If hell froze over and EA decided to produce games for SteamOS, they could create and have a Linux version of origin?



They could, but one of the joys of PC gaming is that it's got increasingly more simple, to the point that despite the odd faff to make my TV the primary monitor to play games it's no harder then consoles. Much as I'd love to move away from MS for this, I can't see a shift to Linux making it any easier. EA could produce a linux version, but it would be more far more fragmentation then I think may be healthy. I guess the other thing would be Nvidia/AMD having to make drivers optimized for games.


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## Silva (Jan 9, 2014)

Sunray said:


> But its Linux, so its not a walled garden.  If hell froze over and EA decided to produce games for SteamOS, they could create and have a Linux version of origin?


Being based on Linux doesn't mean much if the system boots directly to the SteamOS and you can't use even a simple repository or add games via DosBox or Wine that can't be purchased otherwise. Of course, being a PC with a Valve badge on it, you can install Windows or other Linux flavour in it, but then, what's the purpose? I'm pretty sure anyone could build a better rig by picking each part from the shelves for less money.

I think SteamOS is a good idea - have a free, gaming oriented operating system that would run as flawlessly AND efficiently as possible. Steamboxes are a crappy idea - it's a PC supposed to be like a console, but none of the advantages - price, to begin with, as I'm sure Valve isn't putting money to make them more affordable - while giving me a weird "consolization" vibe.


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Jan 9, 2014)

So would an intresting question be...who would install a seperate OS to play games?


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## mrs quoad (Jan 9, 2014)

Global Stoner said:


> So would an intresting question be...who would install a seperate OS to play games?


A mac owner, who fancies trying one of the other 90% of Steam games?


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## Sunray (Jan 10, 2014)

With the advent of VDI and beyond, you can run SteamOS in a virtualised environment.

No need to be doing anything to the host OS.


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## mrs quoad (Jan 10, 2014)

mrs quoad said:


> A mac owner, who fancies trying one of the other 90% of Steam games?


To qualify this: I would rather shoot myself in the face, repeatedly, than install any form of windows (for a very high price!) on a partition on my already-small (256gb) hard drive.

But I would *love* a low-memory, cheap-or-free OS on a partition that did nothing other than enable me to play some (more) decent and interesting games. Something like 90% of the steam winter sale are Windows only and, whilst I wouldn't sacrifice that for the benefits my laptop brings, this does raise a very interesting possibility.


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## Kid_Eternity (Jan 10, 2014)

mrs quoad said:


> A mac owner, who fancies trying one of the other 90% of Steam games?



I'd prefer cloud based gaming which took up very little room on my local machine...


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Jan 10, 2014)

Kid_Eternity said:


> I'd prefer cloud based gaming which took up very little room on my local machine...



We're a long way from having net connections you can do that on in most parts of the country.


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## Kid_Eternity (Jan 10, 2014)

Nah we're not plenty of people have 5-10 mb lines these days and it's only getting faster. To be truly groundbreaking you have to bet on the future that's fast arriving not on a present quickly becoming redundant...


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## Sunray (Jan 16, 2014)

Nice idea and works OK for everything but twitch, but centralising processing leads to  the issue that plagued WoW. You want to play that game do you, OK join the queue.

There are some hard computer science facts that cannot be worked around in this realm.  Far better to have your own CPU and GPU.


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## Silva (Jan 23, 2014)

Wine could be a solution. With a beefy enough PC, it can run (some) more-or-less recent games quite well:



It probably wouldn't work with all games in the Steam catalog, but could be a start.


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## magneze (Nov 27, 2015)

So, anyone got a Steam Machine then?


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Nov 27, 2015)

Why would you?


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## magneze (Nov 27, 2015)

Well, quite.


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## magneze (Nov 27, 2015)

I like the idea. Reviews have ranged from meh to glowing, but you could just buy a small form factor pc + windows 10 and install Steam. It's not quite as plug and play but pretty close.


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Nov 27, 2015)

It's not one thing or the other. For the first time in my life I've bought a PS4 rather then upgrading the PC, but if I had proper cash to spend then adding windows to the price wouldn't factor into it.


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