# Champagne & Fromage opening in Brixton soon



## editor (Jul 31, 2013)

And this is what it's going to look like.



> Champagne+Fromage @Champ_Fromage
> @BrixtonBlog @BrixtonSplash @brixtonbuzz @BrixtonVillage brixtonite we are so excited, lets bubble soon!!! pic.twitter.com/P4BUDfS8Cf


 


> Champagne+Fromage
> @Champ_Fromage
> Champagne+Fromage shop and bistro in Covent Garden specialised in Grower Champagne. Supplied by the the e-commerce @Frenchbubbles. Let's bubble!


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## King Biscuit Time (Jul 31, 2013)

I prefer vin rouge with my fromage.


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## snowy_again (Jul 31, 2013)

How can you trade mark "Champagne + Fromage"?


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## dylanredefined (Jul 31, 2013)

snowy_again said:


> How can you trade mark "Champagne + Fromage"?


 
 They have an odd + sign I guess in their design.


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## Dr Nookie (Jul 31, 2013)

Says it all really.


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## clandestino (Jul 31, 2013)

I went for lunch with my two boys at the old cafe on Market Row today, after going to see Despicable Me 2 at the Ritzy - hilarious and a big hit with the boys - and then we had a wander around BV afterwards, as I haven't been there in ages and I was curious to see what it's like now.

I was thinking that Market Row has the balance just about right. There's old places like the cafe and Nour and various grocery stores and suchlike alongside new places like Franco Manca and Seven, and the mix doesn't feel jarring at all. In BV itself, the ratio of old to new is obviously slanted towards the new and it would be nice if it was a bit more like Market Row, with the old and the new co-existing and creating something that is old Brixton and new Brixton all at the same time, but generally it's still not too bad. I felt that if I went on holiday and found somewhere like Brixton Village, I'd like it.

Then, I had a look at the prices at the new restaurants...and that's where it all falls apart. They're just so expensive. And I think that's what sticks in the craw most about Brixton Village and the way the area is going.

I'm sure there'll be someone along to say that the restaurants aren't really that expensive and that's what you should expect to pay in restaurants like that in London these days, and I'm sure that is true, but that's not what Brixton has been about for all these years. People came to Brixton because it was cheap, and that helped to define the area - filling it with musicians and artists and all manner of folk who couldn't afford most of the rest of London. Brixton's cheapness is, in a way, its soul. And if Brixton is suddenly just the same as the rest of London, then has its point - and its soul - been lost?

People hate hipsters not because of how they dress or what they say or what they listen to. Hipsters have always dressed stupidly and been more obscurer than thou - that was the same in the Eighties when hipsters were goths and punks and indiekids, and it's the same now it's twats in cardigans and taches. The difference, I reckon, is that most hipsters back then were broke, whereas most hipsters now are loaded. Hipsters back then, you somehow felt, had to be who they were, they meant it. Now, it's just a lifestyle choice, temporary. "And if you call your Dad, he could stop it all..."

Similarly, I don't think people hate Brixton Village for what it is - it's actually a fairly pleasant collection of bars and restaurants - but for how much it costs. It's the hatred of seeing a place you'd quite like to eat at, but can't afford. And the hatred of seeing the people who can afford it, knowing that they're not quite what you originally came to Brixton for.

Champagne And Fromage pushes it right over the edge. That place doesn't look charming but overpriced. It just looks like a magnet for rich, horrible people. And I fear it could be a Year Zero for Brixton Village like Franco Manca was a Year Zero for Market Row/Brixton in general. One day, when everywhere in BV is like C+F, maybe we'll look back on the Brixton Village of today and think, hey, it wasn't so bad after all...


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## 8115 (Jul 31, 2013)

Champagne and frottage


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## 8115 (Jul 31, 2013)

You can have that one for free.


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## moochedit (Jul 31, 2013)

*shudders*


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## mxh (Jul 31, 2013)

Champagne & Fromage.

I'm more excited about Morissons opening on Acre Lane than this.


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## editor (Jul 31, 2013)

8115 said:


> You can have that one for free.


 
*throws it back


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## editor (Jul 31, 2013)

The Frenchbubbles Champagne bar replaces the Faiz Food Store, at 10-11 Granville Arcade, described thus: 


> Fruit and vegetable stall in the heart of Brixton Village, accepting both paper currency and Pay by Text.


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## clandestino (Jul 31, 2013)

Ah, I was wondering if it was going to be there. I saw them doing that up today. I assumed it was going to be a Faiz restaurant, because it still has the Faiz lettering. I liked the idea that the food store was going to be making good use of their own produce...


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## leanderman (Jul 31, 2013)

Looks about as out of place as the Greek ice cream yoghurt place. 

Will be interesting to see what they charge for their champagne, which is poor value at the best of times.


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## madolesance (Jul 31, 2013)

editor said:


> The Frenchbubbles Champagne bar replaces the Faiz Food Store, at 10-11 Granville Arcade, described thus:


 
Faiz, is joining forces with the green grocers opposite to create a super store that should have Tescburys running scared. I always buy the imported bottles of 'Ting' from them.


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## kittyP (Jul 31, 2013)

mxh said:


> Champagne & Fromage.
> 
> I'm more excited about Morissons opening on Acre Lane than this.


 

There is a new Lidl opening up SW9 way too. I am quite excited about that


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## cuppa tee (Jul 31, 2013)

If they're looking for a celeb to cut the ribbon they could do worse than Billy Bragg.


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## T & P (Jul 31, 2013)

Don't expect to set foot in it too often, but don't have an issue with it either. At least it isn't a mobile phone, nail or loan shop. Or another supermarket.


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## Winot (Aug 1, 2013)

snowy_again said:


> How can you trade mark "Champagne + Fromage"?



The 'TM' doesn't mean anything really - just that they consider it to be their trade mark. 

With a fair wind they might be able to get a registration for the stylisation, but their rights would be very narrow in scope, and wouldn't enable them to stop someone else using the words in a different stylisation.

/trade mark lawyer


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## Winot (Aug 1, 2013)

leanderman said:


> Looks about as out of place as the Greek ice cream yoghurt place.
> 
> Will be interesting to see what they charge for their champagne, which is poor value at the best of times.



Retail prices on their website look quite reasonable (given that champagne is presently overpriced):

http://www.frenchbubbles.co.uk/cat_name/Buy_Champagne.aspx

Depends on quality of course but it's Grower stuff.

No sign of any bar prices.


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## gabi (Aug 1, 2013)

The cheapskates have clearly raided dafont.com there. Not exactly five star typography but very cost effective.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Aug 1, 2013)

editor said:


> View attachment 38166
> 
> And this is what it's going to look like.


 

It looks like a cafeteria. If I'm going to consume champagne and fromage, I at least want a potted plant or two nearby.


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## happyshopper (Aug 1, 2013)

madolesance said:


> Faiz, is joining forces with the green grocers opposite ...



Faiz is the shop opposite. They ran both units.


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## netbob (Aug 1, 2013)

They don't yet have planning permission. 

The council appears to be sitting on all the 30+ change of use issues in market row / village.


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## Thimble Queen (Aug 1, 2013)

Vomaaaage?


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## simonSW2 (Aug 1, 2013)

A shameless, cynical, novelty act.

It's like Rick Astley in a glittering gold jacket, clutching a kazoo, turning up to a jazz club and expecting to be taken seriously.

Just a bit of fun though right? Why so serious? Lighten up man, it's entertainment, it's only cheese, dude.

Aye, fuck off.

You need to reach astonishing levels of boredom and vacuity to feel the 'need' for champagne and cheese, or to feel comfortable sitting in a cafe selling fizz and churned milk for the bare LOLZ.

I guess it's a 'quirky and vibrant' leisure activity for unfulfilled people desperately seeking a status update or for first time buyers to take their Brixton-fearing parents to to thank them for the eye-watering deposit.

As for the business owners, chasing the money and chasing 'cool', why don't you fuck off to West London where you'll be appreciated by empty-headed full-walleted pricks who would take your arrival as a compliment rather than an insult to the intelligence?

I raise a glass of cheap vintage to you in the hope you lose money, close down and fuck off within six months. This is one strand of 'choice', 'variety' and 'diversity' we can live without.

Cheers, yeah?


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## pissflaps (Aug 1, 2013)

i fucking LOVE champagne. AND cheese!


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## Badgers (Aug 1, 2013)

I like cheese. 

Champagne is something usually drunk at home with family or friends to celebrate a special event.


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## Vibrant-Hubb (Aug 1, 2013)

It seems so sad, when the "Friends of Brixton Market" on their "Listed" site:

http://www.friendsofbrixtonmarket.org/listed/how-the-listing-happened.html

... state the reason why people fought so hard was this:

"The plans the council and developers put together initially were a violent insult to the cultures of Brixton. I felt angry and distressed that the people and living history in the markets were going to be stamped on and the people wanting this didn't even notice or care what they were about to obliterate.
Too much of real London has been swept away by a tide of 'luxury apartments coming soon'. The reality is often cultural loss, class and racial oppression and buildings without verve or style. My idea for the markets is that they should continue to provide business startups for working class Londoners and new immigrants, with the whole thing radiating out from respecting the British African-Caribbean history."

Champagne and Frommage. I honestly don't even really know what frommage is. Is it something between yoghurt and cheese? Oh well, nevermind, the whole place is such in insult now it'll probably burn when Brixton Splash loses it on Sunday night.


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## pissflaps (Aug 1, 2013)

it's french for 'cheese'.

just like 'Champagne' is french for 'Fizzy Wine'

yeesh.


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## spanglechick (Aug 1, 2013)

Vibrant-Hubb said:
			
		

> Champagne and Frommage. I honestly don't even really know what frommage is. Is it something between yoghurt and cheese? Oh well, nevermind, the whole place is such in insult now it'll probably burn when Brixton Splash loses it on Sunday night.


Fromage is just French for "cheese".  Champagne is French.  The name isn't the worst in the world.


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## silverfish (Aug 1, 2013)

simonSW2 said:


> A shameless, cynical, novelty act.
> 
> It's like Rick Astley in a glittering gold jacket, clutching a kazoo, turning up to a jazz club and expecting to be taken seriously.
> 
> ...



I fear you have little you enjoy in your life


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## Red Cat (Aug 1, 2013)

pissflaps said:


> it's french for 'cheese'.
> 
> just like 'Champagne' is french for 'Fizzy Wine'
> 
> yeesh.


 
And wanker is English for wanker.


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## pissflaps (Aug 1, 2013)

Monsieur Le Wanker. I think you'll find.


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## spanglechick (Aug 1, 2013)

simonSW2 said:


> A shameless, cynical, novelty act.
> 
> It's like Rick Astley in a glittering gold jacket, clutching a kazoo, turning up to a jazz club and expecting to be taken seriously.
> 
> ...


I think there's a lot to be angry about, and apart from some Chinese dumplings I've never felt the need to eat in the village, but there's fuck all wrong with fizzy wine and cheese, and wanting to eat them doesn't show some moral fucking failing.  Nor does being able to afford them, as it goes.   I've lived all my life in south London - I'm not a gentrifier (and in fact have moved out to Sydenham myself because I couldn't afford to stay further in), but I don't have kids and I have a teacher's salary and if I want to blow my disposable income on champagne and cheese that makes me no more of a cunt than if I spend it on a big night in the Albert (which I have also been known to do).   

Be angry, of course - what's happening to the market, and to Brixton is shit - but this kind of bollocks dilutes your justification.   People spend their own money on what they like.  We can all make judgements on that... But it's hardly edifying.


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## Ms T (Aug 1, 2013)

Champagne and cheese - not natural bedfellows I wouldn't have thought.


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## Badgers (Aug 1, 2013)

Ms T said:
			
		

> Champagne and cheese - not natural bedfellows I wouldn't have thought.



Yeah  

Red wine and cheese. 

Champagne and oysters? 
Champagne and summer fruits? 
Champagne with Salmon and scrambled eggs? 
Champagne with toast and pate?


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## pissflaps (Aug 1, 2013)

try it - it's a taste sensation.


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## spanglechick (Aug 1, 2013)

Ms T said:


> Champagne and cheese - not natural bedfellows I wouldn't have thought.


I disagree, but then I'm not fond of red wine.


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## Ms T (Aug 1, 2013)

I dunno, it means that people with some disposable income are spending it in local businesses in Brixton rather than going up West or whatever.  Some of the original businesses in VB are run by long-term residents (Circus, Cornercopia, French & Grace).  Before BV and Market Row were developed, there were actually remarkably few places to eat in Brixton.  And I don't think any of the old-timers (Phoenix, Khans, Asmara) have actually closed down.


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## Ms T (Aug 1, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> I disagree, but then I'm not fond of red wine.


 
It depends on the cheese, but a lot of them (especially stinky washed rind cheeses and blue cheese) will kill the taste of the champagne or sparking wine.  Parmesan-type cheeses are good.


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## pissflaps (Aug 1, 2013)

you know what can get to fuck? Wine and chocolate. Not sure what it's more a waste of.


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## fredfelt (Aug 1, 2013)

Ms T said:


> Champagne and cheese - not natural bedfellows I wouldn't have thought.


 

Beer and crisps is where its at.


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## Manter (Aug 1, 2013)

pissflaps said:


> you know what can get to fuck? Wine and chocolate. Not sure what it's more a waste of.


I found a red wine that went with chocolate. It was.... Novel.


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## simonSW2 (Aug 1, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> I think there's a lot to be angry about, and apart from some Chinese dumplings I've never felt the need to eat in the village, but there's fuck all wrong with fizzy wine and cheese, and wanting to eat them doesn't show some moral fucking failing. Nor does being able to afford them, as it goes. I've lived all my life in south London - I'm not a gentrifier (and in fact have moved out to Sydenham myself because I couldn't afford to stay further in), but I don't have kids and I have a teacher's salary and if I want to blow my disposable income on champagne and cheese that makes me no more of a cunt than if I spend it on a big night in the Albert (which I have also been known to do).
> 
> Be angry, of course - what's happening to the market, and to Brixton is shit - but this kind of bollocks dilutes your justification. People spend their own money on what they like. We can all make judgements on that... But it's hardly edifying.


 
Fair point, I spend my spare change on all kinds of nonsense, I don't have a problem with that, or with cheese and fizz either together or separately - I do have a problem with this venue, in this context, presenting this selection, in this way, though. Capitalist shenanigans beyond irony.


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## DRINK? (Aug 1, 2013)

will you be able to get branston pickle?


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## pissflaps (Aug 1, 2013)

DRINK? said:


> branston pickle?


 
Cornichon Anglaise.


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## editor (Aug 1, 2013)

Ms T said:


> I dunno, it means that people with some disposable income are spending it in local businesses in Brixton rather than going up West or whatever.


I suspect a sizeable chunk of their customers will be people coming_ in_ to Brixton to enjoy the heady mix of champers and cheese.


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## Dexter Deadwood (Aug 1, 2013)

Austerity isn't working.


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## spanglechick (Aug 1, 2013)

editor said:


> I suspect a sizeable chunk of their customers will be people coming_ in_ to Brixton to enjoy the heady mix of champers and cheese.


Because they can't afford to live in Brixton!


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## editor (Aug 1, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> Because they can't afford to live in Brixton!


Pretty sure some of their expected clientèle could, you know. I don't expect there's much of a demand for upmarket champagne and cheese bars in poorer areas.


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## Ms T (Aug 1, 2013)

editor said:


> I suspect a sizeable chunk of their customers will be people coming_ in_ to Brixton to enjoy the heady mix of champers and cheese.


 
A sizeable chunk of customers for the Dogstar/Albert etc don't live in Brixton either.  People are pouring out of the tube these days on Friday/Sat nights, when they used to pour into it.


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## editor (Aug 1, 2013)

Ms T said:


> A sizeable chunk of customers for the Dogstar/Albert etc don't live in Brixton either. People are pouring out of the tube these days on Friday/Sat nights, when they used to pour into it.


And don't the local residents and their piss stained walls know it.


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## Winot (Aug 1, 2013)

simonSW2 said:


> Fair point, I spend my spare change on all kinds of nonsense, I don't have a problem with that, or with cheese and fizz either together or separately - I do have a problem with this venue, in this context, presenting this selection, in this way, though. Capitalist shenanigans beyond irony.


 
Have you looked at their website?  It looks to me like these people are wine and food geeks - no Cristal (or even Moet) here.  If anything, this venture is going to fail because it's not capitalist enough.


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## fredfelt (Aug 1, 2013)

Winot said:


> Have you looked at their website? It looks to me like these people are wine and food geeks - no Cristal (or even Moet) here. If anything, this venture is going to fail because it's not capitalist enough.


 

I took a look at their site.  At least it seems that they are independent and passionate about what they do.

I don't live anywhere near Brixton but I'd much prefer this independent over, say a Costa or other identikit store.

It's sad, but I assume the rents are too high for anything else but a chain or a high end place.   Good luck to them.  

I can't get angry with place for giving it a go.  If anything I feel a general malaise about the seemingly inevitable march of gentrification.  Any anger I have is with policies put in place years ago which result in 'progress' of this kind.


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## TruXta (Aug 1, 2013)

Winot said:


> Have you looked at their website? It looks to me like these people are wine and food geeks - no Cristal (or even Moet) here. If anything, this venture is going to fail because it's not capitalist enough.


That can't be true - they've got another shop just up by Covent Garden, how the hell can you afford to set up there if you're not pretty well off?


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## Winot (Aug 1, 2013)

TruXta said:


> That can't be true - they've got another shop just up by Covent Garden, how the hell can you afford to set up there if you're not pretty well off?


 
I didn't claim they didn't have funds - although my guess is they are leveraged to the hilt - it was more a comment about the style of the place.  Perhaps 'not capitalist' was the wrong form of words - not trendy/blingy would be better.


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## Winot (Aug 1, 2013)

fredfelt said:


> I can't get angry with place for giving it a go. If anything I feel a general malaise about the seemingly inevitable march of gentrification. Any anger I have is with policies put in place years ago which result in 'progress' of this kind.


 
That's a very reasonable position to take.

What the hell are you doing on Urban75?


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## TruXta (Aug 1, 2013)

Winot said:


> I didn't claim they didn't have funds - although my guess is they are leveraged to the hilt - it was more a comment about the style of the place. Perhaps 'not capitalist' was the wrong form of words - not trendy/blingy would be better.


If it's in Covent Garden it's bloody well trendy.


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## pissflaps (Aug 1, 2013)

Good luck to 'em. 

Restaurants should be judged on the quality of their food & service, not by who you think it will appeal to.


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## TruXta (Aug 1, 2013)

pissflaps said:


> Good luck to 'em.
> 
> Restaurants should be judged on the quality of their food & service, not by who you think it will appeal to.


Fuck off.


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## pissflaps (Aug 1, 2013)

i thought so.


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## Chilavert (Aug 1, 2013)

TruXta said:


> If it's in CV it's bloody well trendy.


Really?


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## TruXta (Aug 1, 2013)

Chilavert said:


> Really?


Yeah, really.


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## Manter (Aug 1, 2013)

covent garden isn't trendy- it's touristy and a bit crap


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## TruXta (Aug 1, 2013)

Chilavert said:


> Really?


Note, it should've read CG for Covent Garden.


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## pissflaps (Aug 1, 2013)

bang goes that argument.


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## TruXta (Aug 1, 2013)

Manter said:


> covent garden isn't trendy- it's touristy and a bit crap


Tell that to the heaps of people who've opened chi-chi cafes, trendy burger joints, super-expensive clothes outlets etc in the area. Touristy and trendy can coincide you know.


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## editor (Aug 1, 2013)

I'm just saddened that every time an expensive, upmarket west end/corporate/chain operator moves into Granville Arcade, a little bit of what made Brixton unique and special vanishes forever. 

I was just talking to one of the traders and he said that many of the traditional stalls in there are living in fear of the next rent rises. Most likely, they'll be priced out.


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## Badgers (Aug 1, 2013)

Harrods is not posh. It is just expensive and touristy.


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## Winot (Aug 1, 2013)

Manter said:


> covent garden isn't trendy- it's touristy and a bit crap


 
But it's "London's Theatreland" !


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## Manter (Aug 1, 2013)

TruXta said:


> Tell that to the heaps of people who've opened chi-chi cafes, trendy burger joints, super-expensive clothes outlets etc in the area. Touristy and trendy can coincide you know.


touristy and expensive can co-incide.  Expensive and trendy can co-incide.  In my world (which is, tbf, a pretty special place) touristy and trendy are diametric opposites


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## Manter (Aug 1, 2013)

Winot said:


> But it's "London's Theatreland" !


My point made beautifully for me


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## Winot (Aug 1, 2013)

Badgers said:


> Harrods is not posh. It is just expensive and touristy.


 
Are we getting a Harrods now?  Gentrification gone mad.


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## pissflaps (Aug 1, 2013)

some restaurants in CG are fucking amazing. 

http://www.polpo.co.uk/


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## rutabowa (Aug 1, 2013)

re: covent garden, whilst i wouldn't call the area itself trendy, there is no doubt the highest concentration of trendy eating places there in all of london.


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## pissflaps (Aug 1, 2013)

quite possibly. a lot of them are pretty good - a few not so good.


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## Manter (Aug 1, 2013)

rutabowa said:


> re: covent garden, whilst i wouldn't call the area itself trendy, there is no doubt the highest concentration of trendy eating places there in all of london.


soho has a higher concentration IMO.  (and some in CG can be declared as soho )


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## Manter (Aug 1, 2013)

pissflaps said:


> some restaurants in CG are fucking amazing.
> 
> http://www.polpo.co.uk/


yeah, you got me there


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## editor (Aug 1, 2013)

I just went past it now but can't work out if Faiz have already moved or if this is the site of the forthcoming champers bar. 



Can anyone confirm?


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## Winot (Aug 1, 2013)

pissflaps said:


> some restaurants in CG are fucking amazing.
> 
> http://www.polpo.co.uk/



It's good but Bocca di Lupo is better (though not as trendy).


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## TruXta (Aug 1, 2013)

So we're agreeing that Covent Garden has a lot of trendy chi-chi eateries and shops then? Good.


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## Manter (Aug 1, 2013)

editor said:


> I just went past it now but can't work out if Faiz have already moved or if this is the site of the forthcoming champers bar.
> 
> View attachment 38232
> 
> Can anyone confirm?


I think the champers place is next to Honest (ie the place opposite)- Faiz are storing some stuff in there at the mo, but I saw a couple of the owners of the newer stalls talking to a bloke with a clipboard in the entrance of it, and it looked like stuff was being stripped out


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## Manter (Aug 1, 2013)

TruXta said:


> So we're agreeing that Covent Garden has a lot of trendy chi-chi eateries and shops then? Good.


nope, not shops.  Eateries, and I think most of them count as Soho.


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## editor (Aug 1, 2013)

Manter said:


> I think the champers place is next to Honest (ie the place opposite)- Faiz are storing some stuff in there at the mo, but I saw a couple of the owners of the newer stalls talking to a bloke with a clipboard in the entrance of it, and it looked like stuff was being stripped out


The place in the picture is more or less directly opposite Honest so I'm a bit confused!


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## Winot (Aug 1, 2013)

TruXta said:


> So we're agreeing that Covent Garden has a lot of trendy chi-chi eateries and shops then? Good.



Bocca di Lupo is in Soho.


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## TruXta (Aug 1, 2013)

Manter said:


> nope, not shops. Eateries, and I think most of them count as Soho.


Oh FFS. We could do this all day - is it Soho, Covent Garden, West End? FWIW the shop this thread relates to is most certainly not based in Soho.


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## Manter (Aug 1, 2013)

editor said:


> The place in the picture is more or less directly opposite Honest so I'm a bit confused!


sorry- the place opposite that pic, next to honest

<<heat addled brain>>


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## rutabowa (Aug 1, 2013)

TruXta said:


> So we're agreeing that Covent Garden has a lot of trendy chi-chi eateries and shops then? Good.


 
yes. i know covent garden very well. it is where trendy places open up after they have done their first local place/market stall and before they expand into a chain.


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## editor (Aug 1, 2013)

Manter said:


> sorry- the place opposite that pic, next to honest
> 
> <<heat addled brain>>


Right. So Faiz have already moved and this is their new premises?

*mind jumbled up due to heat


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## Winot (Aug 1, 2013)

TruXta said:


> Oh FFS. We could do this all day - is it Soho, Covent Garden, West End? FWIW the shop this thread relates to is most certainly not based in Soho.



You need to chill - perhaps have a glass of bubbly?


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## Manter (Aug 1, 2013)

editor said:


> Right. So Faiz have already moved and this is their new premises?
> 
> *mind jumbled up due to heat


yes I think so.  But I could be wrong*

*Are you even allowed to admit to potential error on the internet?


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## TruXta (Aug 1, 2013)

Winot said:


> You need to chill - perhaps have a glass of bubbly?


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## Manter (Aug 1, 2013)

Winot said:


> You need to chill - perhaps have a glass of bubbly?


avec du fromage?  

Still can't quite figure out that combo, tbh


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## TruXta (Aug 1, 2013)

Manter said:


> avec du fromage?
> 
> Still can't quite figure out that combo, tbh


It's because it's shit.


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## pissflaps (Aug 1, 2013)

TruXta said:


> Oh FFS. We could do this all day - is it Soho, Covent Garden, West End? FWIW the shop this thread relates to is most certainly not based in Soho.


 
you fucking started it.


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## leanderman (Aug 1, 2013)

I sure hope the Albert doesn't sell champagne.


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## fredfelt (Aug 1, 2013)

pissflaps said:


> Good luck to 'em.
> 
> Restaurants should be judged on the quality of their food & service, not by who you think it will appeal to.


 

I'm in agreement with you.  However I'd add another criteria to that - judge them on their financial affairs.  Chains with their careful tax planning, minimum wage and elaborate schemes where they cream off a percentage of the tips for the managers can fuck right off.

In these respects independents, like this place seems to be, generally perform way better.


----------



## editor (Aug 1, 2013)

leanderman said:


> I sure hope the Albert doesn't sell champagne.


 
Just about every pub in Brixton has stocked champagne for years, but there's never been much call for a champagne and cheese-themed bar.


----------



## leanderman (Aug 1, 2013)

editor said:


> Just about every pub in Brixton has stocked champagne for years, but there's never been much call for a champagne and cheese-themed bar.



Cheese straws are the thing with champagne.


----------



## RubyToogood (Aug 1, 2013)

Good grief. I was joking with a friend just a few weeks ago about us opening a champagne booth in Market Row


----------



## pissflaps (Aug 1, 2013)

fredfelt said:


> I'm in agreement with you. However I'd add another criteria to that -


 
fair enough.


----------



## leanderman (Aug 1, 2013)

It might just work, consider this: 

A glass of wine in a pub costs say £4.50. You and mate have three each: £27.

And this new place just might charge £27 for a bottle of champagne drunk on the premises.


----------



## TruXta (Aug 1, 2013)

leanderman said:


> It might just work, consider this:
> 
> A glass of wine in a pub costs say £4.50. You and mate have three each: £27.
> 
> And this new place just might charge £27 for a bottle of champagne drunk on the premises.


You have a bottle instead then, for 15-20 quid.


----------



## Ms T (Aug 1, 2013)

Six glasses of wine is more than a bottle though - more like a bottle and a half.


----------



## TruXta (Aug 1, 2013)

Ms T said:


> Six glasses of wine is more than a bottle though - more like a bottle and a half.


Depends on the serving. Six glasses at 125 ml (i.e. what used to be a normal serving) is a bottle.


----------



## Ms T (Aug 1, 2013)

TruXta said:


> Depends on the serving. Six glasses at 125 ml is a bottle.


 

When was the last time you got a glass that size in a pub though, especially for £4.50.  Unless you specifically ask for something smaller, the default size seems to be 250ml.


----------



## editor (Aug 1, 2013)

Ah. So they operate in the '_Opera Quarter_' of Covent Garden.
That's a new one on me!
http://www.operaquarter.co.uk/store-directory/champagne-fromage

Here's Mr French Bubbles.






http://www.frenchbubbles.co.uk/



> We run monthly Champagne Tastings in different locations in London in association with our Foodie Partners, which are at the top of their sector and well renown by the public.
> http://www.enternships.com/company/french-bubbles-ltd


----------



## pissflaps (Aug 1, 2013)

ok.


----------



## fortyplus (Aug 1, 2013)

Ms T said:


> Six glasses of wine is more than a bottle though - more like a bottle and a half.


 
That'll be  one-unit-of-alcohol per glass ahem.


Six standard pub-sized 125ml glasses makes a bottle.  Personally I think they're too big (don't get me started on the 250ml buckets of 14.5% stuff.... as bad as pints of strong lager);  90ml is about right which is eight to a bottle less the dregs.  In a decent-sized glass to give room to get yr schnozz in for a good sniff without dunking it.


----------



## Winot (Aug 1, 2013)

Ms T said:


> When was the last time you got a glass that size in a pub though, especially for £4.50. Unless you specifically ask for something smaller, the default size seems to be 250ml.


 
I don't drink wine in pubs but I'm sure you're right.

Champagne is about the only wine served in 125ml glasses these days (maybe sherry).  Standard in restaurants for still wine seems to be 175ml.


----------



## Ms T (Aug 1, 2013)

leanderman said:


> It might just work, consider this:
> 
> A glass of wine in a pub costs say £4.50. You and mate have three each: £27.
> 
> And this new place just might charge £27 for a bottle of champagne drunk on the premises.


 
If you look at their Covent Garden menu, the cheapest champagne they do is more than £50.  Honestly, I can't see that working in Brixton even with its new demographic.  They can't be THAT wealthy.


----------



## Ms T (Aug 1, 2013)

Winot said:


> I don't drink wine in pubs but I'm sure you're right.
> 
> Champagne is about the only wine served in 125ml glasses these days (maybe sherry). Standard in restaurants for still wine seems to be 175ml.


 
Exactly.


----------



## cuppa tee (Aug 1, 2013)

I have just returned from a trip to soho/covent garden and if it wasnt for the fact you have to cross a busy road you wouldn't be able  to tell one from the other, there was even one streetfood stall with yellow branding that was in both berwick and rupert street markets. And managing to do both Mexican burritos and Moroccan tagine !


----------



## Ms T (Aug 1, 2013)

fortyplus said:


> That'll be one-unit-of-alcohol per glass ahem.
> 
> 
> Six standard pub-sized 125ml glasses makes a bottle. Personally I think they're too big (don't get me started on the 250ml buckets of 14.5% stuff.... as bad as pints of strong lager); 90ml is about right which is eight to a bottle less the dregs. In a decent-sized glass to give room to get yr schnozz in for a good sniff without dunking it.


 
When was the last time you drank wine in a pub?  1975?  

175ml has been the standard for ages.


----------



## TruXta (Aug 1, 2013)

Ms T said:


> When was the last time you got a glass that size in a pub though, especially for £4.50. Unless you specifically ask for something smaller, the default size seems to be 250ml.


It's been a while, admittedly, but I still see it around.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Aug 1, 2013)

this thread has actually made me want to punch myself in the face repeatedly.

well done everyone.


----------



## TruXta (Aug 1, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> this thread has actually made me want to punch myself in the face repeatedly.
> 
> well done everyone.


Have you fallen foul of the cut-off date for Real Brixton citizenship?


----------



## editor (Aug 1, 2013)

TruXta said:


> Have you fallen foul of the cut-off date for Real Brixton citizenship?


Some say 'Brixton' is an attitude not a date of arrival.


----------



## Badgers (Aug 1, 2013)

leanderman said:
			
		

> I sure hope the Albert doesn't sell champagne.



Lanson £27.99

Beyoncé is currently on the jukebox and there are two people drinking Evian water, looking at properties on laptops and loudly calling estate agents. 

#endofdays


----------



## el-ahrairah (Aug 1, 2013)

TruXta said:


> Have you fallen foul of the cut-off date for Real Brixton citizenship?


 
i hope not.  i've been here since 2005.  that isn't great, but it still allows me to sneer at anyone who moved here since 2006.


----------



## TruXta (Aug 1, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> i hope not. i've been here since 2005. that isn't great, but it still allows me to sneer at anyone who moved here since 2006.


Not good enough. You better start packing before the hipster police comes to get you.


----------



## editor (Aug 1, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> i hope not. i've been here since 2005. that isn't great, but it still allows me to sneer at anyone who moved here since 2006.


 
As documented in the A-Z of gentrification: 


> R: Recently arrived complaining about the even more recently arrived.


----------



## Ms T (Aug 1, 2013)

It's my 20th Brixton anniversary in September.

That means I can afford to live in a house and have enough money left over for Champers in BV, which I persist in calling Granville Arcade.

*proud*


----------



## el-ahrairah (Aug 1, 2013)

editor said:


> Some say 'Brixton' is an attitude not a date of arrival.


 
i met the new chap in my house last night.  he reckons he's an old brixtonite because he moved here "before it was fashionable".  he means 2011.  he works in finance and plays rugby and thinks brixton is super cool and much better than islington which is like rilly rilly boring these days ya.

i think this is the brixton attitude now.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Aug 1, 2013)

TruXta said:


> Not good enough. You better start packing before the hipster police comes to get you.


 
i am packing.  Penge or Anarley, here i come!


----------



## TruXta (Aug 1, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> i am packing. Penge or Anarley, here i come!


We've got a spare room. Are you handy with a strimmer?


----------



## editor (Aug 1, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> i met the new chap in my house last night. he reckons he's an old brixtonite because he moved here "before it was fashionable". he means 2011. he works in finance and plays rugby and thinks brixton is super cool and much better than islington which is like rilly rilly boring these days ya.
> 
> i think this is the brixton attitude now.


Quite a large chunk of long-time Brixton friends who have been priced out by the wealthy incomers have reluctantly moved to Hastings. Maybe they're all giving it large Brixton-style around the sea front


----------



## TruXta (Aug 1, 2013)

editor said:


> Quite a large chunk of long-time Brixton friends who have been priced out by the wealthy incomers have reluctantly moved to Hastings. Maybe they're all giving it large Brixton-style around the sea front


Why Hastings in particular? Local ties, cheap as chips?


----------



## editor (Aug 1, 2013)

TruXta said:


> Why Hastings in particular? Local ties, cheap as chips?


 
Cheap housing I think was the compelling factor.


----------



## Manter (Aug 1, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> i hope not. i've been here since 2005. that isn't great, but it still allows me to sneer at anyone who moved here since 2006.


2006.  Does that mean I get in under the wire or get lynched?!

Not proper Brixtonz


----------



## colacubes (Aug 1, 2013)

editor said:


> Cheap housing I think was the compelling factor.


 

Local ties as well in fairness.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Aug 1, 2013)

TruXta said:


> We've got a spare room. Are you handy with a strimmer?


 
is that a euphemism?


----------



## TruXta (Aug 1, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> is that a euphemism?


No.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Aug 1, 2013)

i like Hastings.  it's a bit Old-Brixton-By-Sea.  i think it's because there's lots of smack there.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Aug 1, 2013)

TruXta said:


> No.


 
Then the answer is No.  sorry.


----------



## TruXta (Aug 1, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> Then the answer is No. sorry.


That's OK. 

What did I do wrong? Did I say something? Was it the lobster surprise under your pillow? TALK TO ME!!!! xxx


----------



## leanderman (Aug 1, 2013)

Manter said:


> 2006.  Does that mean I get in under the wire or get lynched?!
> 
> Not proper Brixtonz



2006 too, which clearly isn't good enough.

However, helped conceive first child after a big night at the Duke of Edinbugh in 2004. Does that help?


----------



## pissflaps (Aug 1, 2013)

leanderman said:


> ... we conceived first child after a big night at the Duke of Edinbugh in 2004. Does that help?


 
POIDH


----------



## ska invita (Aug 1, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> i met the new chap in my house last night. he reckons he's an old brixtonite because he moved here "before it was fashionable". he means 2011. he works in finance and plays rugby and thinks brixton is super cool and much better than islington which is like rilly rilly boring these days ya.
> 
> i think this is the brixton attitude now.


theres always been dulwichites and clapahmites in brixton with this attitude (not saying there aren't more these days)


----------



## el-ahrairah (Aug 1, 2013)

TruXta said:


> That's OK.
> 
> What did I do wrong? Did I say something? Was it the lobster surprise under your pillow? TALK TO ME!!!! xxx


 
it's not you, it's me.

no, wait.  it is you.  surprise lobsters are never ok.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Aug 1, 2013)

leanderman said:


> However, helped conceive first child after a big night at the Duke of Edinbugh in 2004. Does that help?


 
was the child conceived IN the Duke Of Edinburgh?

typing that made me feel yukky.


----------



## TruXta (Aug 1, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> was the child conceived IN the Duke Of Edinburgh?
> 
> typing that made me feel yukky.


I have thought that it'd make for a very naught place for a quickie. In the beer garden that is.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Aug 1, 2013)

in one's beer garden?


----------



## editor (Aug 1, 2013)

They do a delivery service too. 



https://twitter.com/Champ_Fromage/status/357455834919362560/photo/1


----------



## TruXta (Aug 1, 2013)

editor said:


> They do a delivery service too.
> 
> View attachment 38244
> 
> https://twitter.com/Champ_Fromage/status/357455834919362560/photo/1


That's an accident waiting to happen right there.


----------



## pissflaps (Aug 1, 2013)

looks like it already has. either that or that nice lady has pissed herself.


----------



## Winot (Aug 1, 2013)

Food looks lush.


----------



## pissflaps (Aug 1, 2013)

does it come with chips?


----------



## Ms T (Aug 1, 2013)

Winot said:


> Food looks lush.


 
If you provide the champers, I can make that round my house easy. Most of it is just shopping. The sourdough will be homemade.


----------



## pissflaps (Aug 1, 2013)

snails?


----------



## TruXta (Aug 1, 2013)

Snails are nom nom nom.


----------



## pissflaps (Aug 1, 2013)

you can have mine.


----------



## TruXta (Aug 1, 2013)

pissflaps said:


> you can have mine.


Those aren't snails, they're slugs.


----------



## pissflaps (Aug 1, 2013)

...puppy dogs tails.


----------



## leanderman (Aug 1, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> was the child conceived IN the Duke Of Edinburgh?
> 
> typing that made me feel yukky.



Pretty sure we kept our clothes on until we got back to Whitechapel.


----------



## Dr Nookie (Aug 1, 2013)

I think the reason I hate 'hipsters' or 'yuppies' or whatever we're calling them, is because they remind me of the kind of people who go on holiday to Greece or Spain, but only eat English food, drink English beer, watch English telly, speak English, and hang out with other English people with no interest in experiencing anything Greece/Spain etc has to offer but their sunshine.
It's just posh people wanting to have all the trappings of Clapham with the cheapness (in the first place) of Brixton. And never mind whose culture/family/real life gets trampled on in the meantime.


----------



## pissflaps (Aug 1, 2013)

do u even france, brah?


----------



## Winot (Aug 1, 2013)

Ms T said:


> If you provide the champers, I can make that round my house easy. Most of it is just shopping. The sourdough will be homemade.



Will there be hipsters?


----------



## pissflaps (Aug 1, 2013)

there will once you get there.

/etcetera.


----------



## leanderman (Aug 1, 2013)

Dr Nookie said:


> I think the reason I hate 'hipsters' or 'yuppies' or whatever we're calling them,.


 

Hipsters as yuppies? Although a little less money-oriented?


----------



## cuppa tee (Aug 1, 2013)

leanderman said:


> Hipsters as yuppies? Although a little less money-oriented?



Hipsters are like the Victorian travellers someone alluded to before,in their role as self appointed arbiters of cool  they go far and wide ( on the Internet  ) to find things which can be filtered through the gauze of irony or quirkiness and give the things a new gloss which sooner or later in time may become meaningful to yuppies who are too career orientated to have much of a culture at all but need something to spend disposable income on which will make them look interesting to competitive friends and potential mating prospects.


----------



## clandestino (Aug 1, 2013)

I enjoyed the early days of this thread, but now I feel like I've been priced out of it entirely...


----------



## editor (Aug 1, 2013)

ianw said:


> I enjoyed the early days of this thread, but now I feel like I've been priced out of it entirely...


 
I hear it's continuing in Anerley.


----------



## clandestino (Aug 1, 2013)

I respect the opinion of everyone who posted in the five posts before me, but those people afterwards...


----------



## DietCokeGirl (Aug 1, 2013)

Okay, here's my perspective as a worker inside Granville Village. There are two distinct types of businesses and business owners/staff that come in: the first come and introduce themselves, chat a bit, talk about what they're going to do, maybe invite you for a freebie on launch night and come along for a beer after close. The second type...don't. Keep to themselves, complain to market management rather than just come and ask if they can borrow a table/if you can move your sign/whatever, and basically aren't community spirited people. I leave to your imagination which group- so far - these lot have fallen into.


----------



## simonSW2 (Aug 1, 2013)

Well I'm not going there, ever.

A deep recession, aggressive Tory attacks on the poor, Brixton people being turfed out of their homes, and here's a bunch of jolly chortling chaps mopping up champagne spills with overpriced sourdough, oblivious and unaffected.

And that delivery service photo is just sexist bullshit.

It makes me fucking sick. Fuck whoever is allowing this level of inappropriateness in.


----------



## leanderman (Aug 1, 2013)

simonSW2 said:


> Well I'm not going there, ever.
> 
> A deep recession, aggressive Tory attacks on the poor, Brixton people being turfed out of their homes, and here's a bunch of jolly chortling chaps mopping up champagne spills with overpriced sourdough, oblivious and unaffected.
> 
> ...


 

Can't see myself using it either. 

But one of the things about this country is that you can basically do what you want without asking anyone's permission - and that includes opening a champagne shop.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Aug 1, 2013)

leanderman said:


> Can't see myself using it either.
> 
> But one of the things about this country is that you can basically do what you want without asking anyone's permission - and that includes opening a champagne shop.


 
come the revolution all that will change, chummy.


----------



## leanderman (Aug 1, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> come the revolution all that will change, chummy.


 

will there be no more champagne?


----------



## simonSW2 (Aug 1, 2013)

leanderman said:


> Can't see myself using it either.
> 
> But one of the things about this country is that you can basically do what you want without asking anyone's permission - and that includes opening a champagne shop.


 
Sure, anyone can do anything, and that's fine, but it doesn't make it any good, or worthwhile, or interesting, or even profitable.

Something good would be whoever is overseeing the market thinking strategically, long term, and telling these nice but dim mumfordfuckers to kindly take their frippery elsewhere, eg: Chelsea.

It demonstrates that whoever is 'planning' the Brixton Village is a clumsy dunce.


----------



## editor (Aug 1, 2013)

leanderman said:


> Can't see myself using it either.
> 
> But one of the things about this country is that you can basically do what you want without asking anyone's permission - and that includes opening a champagne shop.


 
No need to bother with planning permission either! Just wave your wad about and in you go -and the old traders can just GTFO.


----------



## leanderman (Aug 1, 2013)

simonSW2 said:


> Sure, anyone can do anything, and that's fine, but it doesn't make it any good, or worthwhile, or interesting, or even profitable.
> 
> Something good would be whoever is overseeing the market thinking strategically, long term, and telling these nice but dim mumfordfuckers to kindly take their frippery elsewhere, eg: Chelsea.
> 
> It demonstrates that whoever is 'planning' the Brixton Village is a clumsy dunce.


 

True. This latest idea is bonkers. Sausage-dog cafe bonkers


----------



## editor (Aug 1, 2013)

leanderman said:


> True. This latest idea is bonkers. Sausage-dog cafe bonkers


 

Oh my Lord. The cat cafe reached their funding goal of £108k and will be opening in East London soon. And then a Brixton branch will follow. Possibly.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 2, 2013)

editor said:


> Quite a large chunk of long-time Brixton friends who have been priced out by the wealthy incomers have reluctantly moved to Hastings. Maybe they're all giving it large Brixton-style around the sea front


 
A friend of mine who is an artist said the same about going to live up North. A few artists they know live up North and get by. London is starting to become no longer feasible.

Hastings is old seaside town. Old seaside towns may be our future.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 2, 2013)

pissflaps said:


> looks like it already has. either that or that nice lady has pissed herself.


 
Normally u irritate me but this made me laugh.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 2, 2013)

simonSW2 said:


> Well I'm not going there, ever.
> 
> A deep recession, aggressive Tory attacks on the poor, Brixton people being turfed out of their homes, and here's a bunch of jolly chortling chaps mopping up champagne spills with overpriced sourdough, oblivious and unaffected.
> .


 
As nearby on the Loughborough estate where the residents association recently had to campaign to stop some poor guy being evicted over the bedroom tax.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 2, 2013)

ianw said:


> Then, I had a look at the prices at the new restaurants...and that's where it all falls apart. They're just so expensive. And I think that's what sticks in the craw most about Brixton Village and the way the area is going.


 
Top post.

This is spot on.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 2, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> I think there's a lot to be angry about, and apart from some Chinese dumplings I've never felt the need to eat in the village, but there's fuck all wrong with fizzy wine and cheese, and wanting to eat them doesn't show some moral fucking failing. Nor does being able to afford them, as it goes. I've lived all my life in south London - I'm not a gentrifier (and in fact have moved out to Sydenham myself because I couldn't afford to stay further in), but I don't have kids and I have a teacher's salary and if I want to blow my disposable income on champagne and cheese that makes me no more of a cunt than if I spend it on a big night in the Albert (which I have also been known to do).
> 
> Be angry, of course - what's happening to the market, and to Brixton is shit - but this kind of bollocks dilutes your justification. People spend their own money on what they like. We can all make judgements on that... But it's hardly edifying.


 
As an aside I get around a lot of London. Meet all kinds of people.

Including some who are very wealthy. One I was thinking of ,who I get on with as it happens, is a style setter not a hipster. Not going to say who it is.  She is perfectly nice person on personal level.

That however does not stop me resenting the inequality I see around London.

A lot of these people live in a different world from the rest of us.

Its not the individual its the system. What I wonder is what would happen if there was a government that really tried to distribute wealth and power? How would these kind of people react?


----------



## Manter (Aug 2, 2013)

Many, I imagine, would say 'but we worked for it'- inherited wealth is pretty much universally derided but the great myth of the current inequality is that that's its a meritocracy. I think everyone in a fortunate position is trying to kid themselves that privilege is not entrenched.


----------



## leanderman (Aug 2, 2013)

Just checked out the forthcoming champagne store's prices at its Covent Garden branch.

They are having a laugh if they think people will pay from £50 to £110 a bottle.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Aug 2, 2013)

leanderman said:


> Just checked out the forthcoming champagne store's prices at its Covent Garden branch.
> 
> They are having a laugh if they think people will pay from £50 to £110 a bottle.



That's a fuckin joke. That's more than some ppl around here to live on for a week. FUCK OFF VOMAAAAGE.


----------



## leanderman (Aug 2, 2013)

Gramsci said:


> ... does not stop me resenting the inequality I see around London.
> 
> A lot of these people live in a different world from the rest of us.


 

The problem with these ridiculous property prices (and we disagree on what causes them) is that they further entrench inequality.

The opportunities in London will go only to those who can afford to live here, crushing social/geographical mobility.


----------



## stuff_it (Aug 2, 2013)

Someone should get people together to do a comedy protest outside when it opens - "white lighning and cheese strings".


----------



## Ms T (Aug 2, 2013)

leanderman said:


> Just checked out the forthcoming champagne store's prices at its Covent Garden branch.
> 
> They are having a laugh if they think people will pay from £50 to £110 a bottle.


As I said earlier, I think they've seriously misjudged the demographic. Maybe they'll start selling blanc de blancs or cremant instead (French version of cava).


----------



## gabi (Aug 2, 2013)

This one's destined for failure.

BTW, was there any follow-up on the fact that most of these new places dont have planning permission? And are breaking various health and safety laws?


----------



## Thimble Queen (Aug 2, 2013)

Ms T said:


> As I said earlier, I think they've seriously misjudged the demographic. Maybe they'll start selling blanc de blancs or cremant instead (French version of cava).



Esp when you can do it cheaper by going to cannon and cannon to get your cheese and then getting some fizz from market row wines and have at the barrels.


----------



## spanglechick (Aug 2, 2013)

yup. muuch as i like fizzy wine and strong cheeses, I'm not going to be paying upwards of £50 a bottle to sit in brixton village.  because it's not in itself a lovely eating environment, either.


----------



## Red Cat (Aug 2, 2013)

Manter said:


> Many, I imagine, would say 'but we worked for it'- inherited wealth is pretty much universally derided but the great myth of the current inequality is that that's its a meritocracy. I think everyone in a fortunate position is trying to kid themselves that privilege is not entrenched.


 

That's what Marx called ideology.


----------



## Red Cat (Aug 2, 2013)

Gramsci said:


> That however does not stop me resenting the inequality I see around London.
> 
> A lot of these people live in a different world from the rest of us.


 
They really do. 

I'm a lot happier in many ways since leaving London; I just don't have that feeling of powerlessness in relation to inequality that I had living in Brixton and paying £1000 a month rent on a low salary and no way out of that. The resentment is corrosive and I'm glad to be largely free of that degree of it.


----------



## Badgers (Aug 2, 2013)

spanglechick said:
			
		

> yup. muuch as i like fizzy wine and strong cheeses, I'm not going to be paying upwards of £50 a bottle to sit in brixton village.  because it's not in itself a lovely eating environment, either.



Yup. Have to say that most of the town centre pubs offer a nicer environment to drink champagne in compared to the village. I guess the village lends itself to coffee, bottles of beer, burritos, burgers and cake. 

Hardly a £30-40 a head fine dining venue. Imagine paying for champagne and posh nibbles, then queuing to pay for the toilet between glasses.


----------



## Winot (Aug 2, 2013)

Agree with all of this ^^

Their brand isn't particularly well-chosen if they end up having to diversify either


----------



## pissflaps (Aug 2, 2013)

Badgers said:


> Yup. Have to say that most of the town centre pubs offer a nicer environment to drink champagne in compared to the village. I guess the village lends itself to coffee, bottles of beer, burritos, burgers and cake.
> 
> Hardly a £30-40 a head fine dining venue. Imagine paying for champagne and posh nibbles, then queuing to pay for the toilet between glasses.


 

it'll be just like going to glasters, ya?

/maybe they'll install toilets? who knows! no one. that's who.


----------



## fredfelt (Aug 2, 2013)

stuff_it said:


> Someone should get people together to do a comedy protest outside when it opens - "white lighning and cheese strings".


 

That would be excellent publicity for them.  I recon that if you arranged that they'd throw you a couple of bottles of champagne for your efforts.  I'd be well up for getting pissed on champagne, and a bit of cheese on the side, if I wasn't paying!


----------



## Dexter Deadwood (Aug 2, 2013)

They may feel brave in their enclave. Drinking champagne in public in an age of austerity is a political act. It is a provocation too far. They will be mocked!


----------



## sparkybird (Aug 2, 2013)

editor said:


> Oh my Lord. The cat cafe reached their funding goal of £108k and will be opening in East London soon. And then a Brixton branch will follow. Possibly.





 I recently went to a cat cafe in Tokyo... out of curiosity really (I do like cats and do have one at home)

It was WEIRD! felt kinda dirty being in there, although all the cats were very happy and well looked after. It was the people that were odd!


----------



## Winot (Aug 2, 2013)

Dexter Deadwood said:


> They may feel brave in their enclave. Drinking champagne in public in an age of austerity is a political act. It is a provocation too far. They will be mocked!


 
If only we'd had a revolution like that of France, where public acts of champagne drinking are politically neutral.


----------



## pissflaps (Aug 2, 2013)

revolutions eat into my precious 'bitching about shit on the internet' time - OUT.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Aug 2, 2013)

leanderman said:


> will there be no more champagne?


 
no more rights.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Aug 2, 2013)

stuff_it said:


> Someone should get people together to do a comedy protest outside when it opens - "white lighning and cheese strings".


 
then i protest it every meal


----------



## TruXta (Aug 2, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> then i protest it every meal


You'll get scurvy going on like that.

Hang on, maybe scurvy could be the next hipster thing? "I'm so hip I no longer do vitamins A through C".


----------



## el-ahrairah (Aug 2, 2013)

TruXta said:


> Hang on, maybe scurvy could be the next hipster thing? "I'm so hip I no longer do vitamins A through C".


 
by the look of a lot of them, they live on nicotine and ketamine. such skinny arms!  and legs like fucking matchsticks.  no wonder they're always getting mugged, can't fight back.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 2, 2013)

stuff_it said:


> Someone should get people together to do a comedy protest outside when it opens - "white lighning and cheese strings".


 

you could offer wide range of pisstake meals such as that. Dairylee Lunchbox and spesh anyone?


----------



## stuff_it (Aug 2, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> you could offer wide range of pisstake meals such as that. Dairylee Lunchbox and spesh anyone?


Light Philidelphia and lambrini...


----------



## pissflaps (Aug 2, 2013)

i'd still rather have champagne and posh cheese.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 2, 2013)

sparkybird said:


> I recently went to a cat cafe in Tokyo... out of curiosity really (I do like cats and do have one at home)
> 
> It was WEIRD! felt kinda dirty being in there, although all the cats were very happy and well looked after. It was the people that were odd!


 
My friend went to one in Tokyo. She likes cats. Not easy to keep pets in Tokyo as its so crowded. Do not see need for cat cafe in London. London is cat city anyway.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 2, 2013)

Manter said:


> Many, I imagine, would say 'but we worked for it'- inherited wealth is pretty much universally derided but the great myth of the current inequality is that that's its a meritocracy. I think everyone in a fortunate position is trying to kid themselves that privilege is not entrenched.


 
It also usual for the well off to over estimate what the average person earns.

The idea of meritocracy was criticised by sociologist Michael Young back in 40s and 50s.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2001/jun/29/comment

The more recent usage of the word came from him. It was forgotten he wrote a satire on the concept of meritocracy.

He saw a change from status based on birth to the growth of elite groups who perpetuate there power.

I think he is accurate about the way education is used to filter people. Also that politics has been largely taken over by people who went to LSE / Oxford / Cambridge. See some of our local Labour ward Cllrs for example.

Also true that in his time during the 40s Labour politicians came from the shop floor so to speak. That does not happen now. I see able people who should be people our Labour Cllrs work with. And encourage to be involved in local politics. They do not. The Labour party in Lambeth does not want the kind of people that Young says were in the party in earlier times.

Had someone having a go at me recently. Using the fact that they went to Oxford to show that they could do things and I just did not understand that. To cut a long story short I ended up sorting the issue out. They never got around to it. It still feels a real put down. As my education is patchy to say the least.


----------



## Ms T (Aug 2, 2013)

It is of course possible to go to Oxbridge and not be a twat / from a middle-class background.


----------



## leanderman (Aug 2, 2013)

Gramsci said:


> he is accurate about the way education is used to filter people.
> .


 

England cricket team is another case in point, as the Times pointed out yesterday

Six of the nine schooled in the UK were educated in the private sector.

In 1983, it was only two out of 11.


----------



## haushoch (Aug 2, 2013)

TruXta said:


> You'll get scurvy going on like that.
> 
> Hang on, maybe scurvy could be the next hipster thing? "I'm so hip I no longer do vitamins A through C".


 
 

...Wikipedia never lies.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Aug 2, 2013)

Ms T said:


> It is of course possible to go to Oxbridge and not be a twat / from a middle-class background.


 
this is definitely true. but it's about 95% twat / middle-class / middle-class twat.

that's a fact, according to my middle-class girlfriend who went to Oxford


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Aug 2, 2013)

Ms T said:


> It is of course possible to go to Oxbridge and not be a twat / from a middle-class background.


 
The question is it is possible to leave Oxbridge and not be a twat/middle class?


----------



## Ms T (Aug 2, 2013)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> The question is it is possible to leave Oxbridge and not be a twat/middle class?



Yes to the first, no to the second.


----------



## Ms T (Aug 2, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> this is definitely true. but it's about 95% twat / middle-class / middle-class twat.
> 
> that's a fact, according to my middle-class girlfriend who went to Oxford


It is of course overwhelmingly middle-class, but that doesn't make you a twat.


----------



## kittyP (Aug 2, 2013)

pissflaps said:


> you know what can get to fuck? Wine and chocolate. Not sure what it's more a waste of.


 

Oooh a good red wine and a little nibble of 70% cocoa dark chocolate in the same mouthful is heaven!


----------



## kittyP (Aug 2, 2013)

I am actually intrigued by this shop but doubt will have the money to go there. 
We could all chip in and buy a case of prosecco and some cheese and go and sit in the park


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Aug 2, 2013)

leanderman said:


> England cricket team is another case in point, as the Times pointed out yesterday
> 
> Six of the nine schooled in the UK were educated in the private sector.
> 
> In 1983, it was only two out of 11.


 
IIRC at one point Phil 'Cor Blimey Geezer' Tufnell was the only private school educated player in the team.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Aug 2, 2013)

kittyP said:


> I am actually intrigued by this shop but doubt will have the money to go there.
> We could all chip in and buy a case of prosecco and some cheese and go and sit in the park


 
That sounds much nicer tbf.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Aug 2, 2013)

kittyP said:


> I am actually intrigued by this shop but doubt will have the money to go there.
> We could all chip in and buy a case of prosecco and some cheese and go and sit in the park



This is the best idea x


----------



## pissflaps (Aug 2, 2013)

how many of those cricket players get in on some sort of cricket scholarship?

/i have no idea if such a thing even exists.


----------



## Corax (Aug 2, 2013)

Ms T said:


> It is of course overwhelmingly middle-class, but that doesn't make you a twat.


 
Radical talk, that.


----------



## fortyplus (Aug 2, 2013)

the problem with cricket is that thatcher and then blair sold off all the playing fields so only private schools have the space to teach the kids to play.


----------



## Winot (Aug 2, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> this is definitely true. but it's about 95% twat / middle-class / middle-class twat.


 
About the same as Urban75 then.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Aug 2, 2013)

Ms T said:


> It is of course overwhelmingly middle-class, but that doesn't make you a twat.


 
that's why i sub-categorised between twats (of all classes) / the middle-classes (whether they're twats or not) / and middle-class twats.  i'd draw it as a venn diagram but i cba


----------



## el-ahrairah (Aug 2, 2013)

Winot said:


> About the same as Urban75 then.


 
good spot


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 2, 2013)

pissflaps said:


> how many of those cricket players get in on some sort of cricket scholarship?
> 
> /i have no idea if such a thing even exists.


 

gentlemans agreement. Sporting legends from the right school WILL be granted access to the right higher, because thats how its done. No need for formal rules old boy. Let us retire to the smoking room and play billiards and drink brandy while the ladies order the skivvies around cleaning up the remains of Lord Bastards most excellent repast *dons velvet jacket*


----------



## trabuquera (Aug 2, 2013)

(derailing back to the original topic):
I can remember  in the early 90s, being told quite proudly by Brixton residents of that era that the Marks & Sparks under the railway bridge sold more smoked salmon and champagne per sq ft than any other branch of M&S anywhere in the UK.  And in those days this was a counterintuitive, stereotype-defying "well fancy that" surprise, not a boast. How things have changed.

Can't really welcome this as a business in the market, but I think realities of supply and demand will do the job on our behalf and put them out of business anyway. (Unless of course the denizens of Nob Towers aka "Brixton Square" decide to make it their local <shivers>)


----------



## DietCokeGirl (Aug 2, 2013)

kittyP said:


> We could all chip in and buy a case of prosecco and some cheese and go and sit in the park


 
We should do this anyway. Urban picnic.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 3, 2013)

Ms T said:


> It is of course possible to go to Oxbridge and not be a twat / from a middle-class background.


 
Not what I was saying.

What Young was putting forward was the idea that meritocracy which would lead to elites would in future develop and entrench themselves in ways other than by bloodlines.

That education would become a filtering organisation for these new elites.

imo he has been proved correct.

Its not a matter of being a "twat". Anyone can be that.

The French philosopher Bourdieu looked at how social and cultural capital are important in modern societies in a way that parallels Young’s work.


----------



## leanderman (Aug 3, 2013)

Anyway, champagne by the glass will be £8 or maybe £7. They 'are working on it'.


----------



## George & Bill (Aug 3, 2013)

pissflaps said:


> Good luck to 'em.
> 
> Restaurants should be judged on the quality of their food & service, not by who you think it will appeal to.


 
I don't mind any of the words you've used individually, but they are ill at ease in each others' company.

Or: are you totally thick? There are some excellent restaurants in London at which ~£100 a head will buy you a truly memorable experience. But if one doesn't have the requisite sum of money, the quality of food and service is academic - so yes, who a restaurant 'appeals to' (which I think is a slimy euphemism for 'is in practice accessible to') is deeply relevant, at least for anyone of remotely limited financial means who actually wishes to consume food there.


----------



## pissflaps (Aug 3, 2013)

slowjoe said:


> I don't mind any of the words you've used individually, but they are ill at ease in each others' company.
> 
> Or: are you totally thick? There are some excellent restaurants in London at which ~£100 a head will buy you a truly memorable experience. But if one doesn't have the requisite sum of money, the quality of food and service is of academic - so yes, who a restaurant 'appeals to' (which I think is a slimy euphemism for 'is in practice accessible to') is deeply relevant, at least for anyone of remotely limited financial means who actually wishes to consume food there.


i know this may sound rich, you probably need to stop over-analysing things.

and fuck you too.


----------



## Jangleballix (Aug 3, 2013)

8115 said:


> Champagne and frottage


 
Sham pain + frottage


----------



## George & Bill (Aug 4, 2013)

pissflaps said:


> i know this may sound rich, you probably need to stop over-analysing things.
> 
> and fuck you too.


 
So pointing out the relevance of asking whether the occupants of a place can actually afford to patronise establishments setting up in their midst is 'over-analysing'? I hope you never have children, or your brain may be called on to explain the plot of 'The Very Hungry Caterpillar' - the analytical strain would give you an aneurysm.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Aug 4, 2013)

simonSW2 said:


> A shameless, cynical, novelty act.
> 
> It's like Rick Astley in a glittering gold jacket, clutching a kazoo, turning up to a jazz club and expecting to be taken seriously.
> 
> ...


 
Some people probably like champagne and cheese.

Surely it's no great injury if they get a place to go in Brixton?


----------



## TruXta (Aug 4, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Some people probably like champagne and cheese.
> 
> Surely it's no great injury if they get a place to go in Brixton?


Fuck off.


----------



## pissflaps (Aug 4, 2013)

slowjoe said:


> So pointing out the relevance of asking whether the occupants of a place can actually afford to patronise establishments setting up in their midst is 'over-analysing'? I hope you never have children, or your brain may be called on to explain the plot of 'The Very Hungry Caterpillar' - the analytical strain would give you an aneurysm.





slowjoe said:


> So pointing out the relevance of asking whether the occupants of a place can actually afford to patronise establishments setting up in their midst is 'over-analysing'? I hope you never have children, or your brain may be called on to explain the plot of 'The Very Hungry Caterpillar' - the analytical strain would give you an aneurysm.


any points you may have are lost in your innability to make them without making bitchy ad hominem comments.

/ignored


----------



## George & Bill (Aug 4, 2013)

pissflaps said:


> any points you may have are lost in your innability to make them without making bitchy ad hominem comments.
> 
> /ignored


 
"I think you are a moron, therefore everything you say must be bullshit", = ad hominem. 

"Everything you are saying seems to be bullshit, therefore I think you are a moron" = logical.


----------



## yardbird (Aug 4, 2013)

Wow! brill!
I've just noticed this. I usually have to go to Brighton for quaff and dairylee - I may just pop up to Brixton  and check out this place
Jolly dee!


----------



## ibilly99 (Aug 5, 2013)

Ms T said:


> Yes to the first, no to the second.


 
appen you're right lad.


----------



## editor (Aug 8, 2013)

So it's Champagne + Fromage right next to Honest Burgers. There's someone's Clapham night out right in Brixton town.


----------



## Chilavert (Aug 8, 2013)

So main course at Honest and next door for cheese for pud. Where should I have a starter?


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Aug 8, 2013)

editor said:


> So it's Champagne + Fromage right next to Honest Burgers. There's someone's Clapham night out right in Brixton town.
> 
> View attachment 38786


 

I thought it was going to be in Market Row - what was there before?


----------



## passivejoe (Aug 8, 2013)

Chilavert said:


> So main course at Honest and next door for cheese for pud. Where should I have a starter?


 
Champagne + Fromage for the champagne aperatif, Etta's Kitchen to knock back a couple of oysters, Honest for a burger, LabG for some icecream and back to Vommage for the cheese and a digestif. All within 5 seconds of each other.
And "The Grand Clapham Tour" is born.

As much as I want any new venture to do well, Champagne & Fromage makes my heart sink.


----------



## Rich_G76 (Aug 8, 2013)

blue nun  and kraft cheese slice, im opening up opposite, may be a baby bell on a Friday.


----------



## editor (Aug 8, 2013)

passivejoe said:


> Champagne + Fromage for the champagne aperatif, Etta's Kitchen to knock back a couple of oysters, Honest for a burger, LabG for some icecream and back to Vommage for the cheese and a digestif. All within 5 seconds of each other.


 
There's lots of yummy cakes to graze on too.


----------



## Winot (Aug 8, 2013)

passivejoe said:


> Etta's Kitchen to knock back a couple of oysters


 
Didn't realise Etta's did oysters...


----------



## passivejoe (Aug 8, 2013)

Winot said:


> Didn't realise Etta's did oysters...


 
http://www.ettasseafoodkitchen.com/menu.html

I imagine they're only available if you order while the fish stall is open...


----------



## clandestino (Aug 9, 2013)

at Vommage...


----------



## leanderman (Sep 4, 2013)

As well as rent, these people have had to pay a £50,000 West End-style premium to secure the lease.

Or so it is claimed. 

Long gone are the days of peppercorn rents.


----------



## editor (Sep 4, 2013)

Covent Garden/Clapham/Camden... and now Brixton.


----------



## Corax (Sep 4, 2013)

I'm still finding it hard to believe that this brand exists.  It's like a 'Grim up North London' cartoon from Private Eye.


----------



## leanderman (Sep 4, 2013)

Corax said:


> I'm still finding it hard to believe that this brand exists.  It's like a 'Grim up North London' cartoon from Private Eye.



Exactly. At the Lido today I bumped into a friend, who is a wine importer, and he was scratching his head too.


----------



## Badgers (Sep 4, 2013)

leanderman said:
			
		

> Exactly. At the Lido today I bumped into a friend, who is a wine importer, and he was scratching his head too.



Not Simon?


----------



## editor (Sep 4, 2013)

leanderman said:


> Exactly. At the Lido today I bumped into a friend, who is a wine importer, and he was scratching his head too.


Can't move in Brixton these days without bumping into a wine importer.


----------



## leanderman (Sep 4, 2013)

Badgers said:


> Not Simon?



Ben, of Indigo Wines. He majors on Spanish wine, which is where the best value is these days.


----------



## Ol Nick (Sep 11, 2013)

This is the Kissinger-wins-the-Peace-Prize moment. The moment the Villaaage goes beyond satire.


----------



## Winot (Sep 11, 2013)

Ol Nick said:


> This is the Kissinger-wins-the-Peace-Prize moment. The moment the Villaaage goes beyond satire.



Perhaps Chris Morris is behind it.


----------



## aussw9 (Sep 13, 2013)

It's not nice wanting a business to fail, but i hope this one bombs out spectacularly. 

I am a fan of most of the stuff in the market, but this one is just well off the mark.


----------



## editor (Sep 30, 2013)

It's opening on October 15th. Another nail in the coffin for Granville Arcade.


> "*Brixton property is bubbling up as champagne bar opens
> *
> It will be the second branch of the bar, bistro and deli. The original is in Covent Garden.
> 
> ...


----------



## editor (Sep 30, 2013)

Some of the comments from the Standard piece:


> It may be an independent shop, but glasses of champagne at £8? How is that useful?





> When there is still so much deprivation in Brixton, this to me seems morally void and totally inappropriate. Parts of London are like cultural theme parks now, where privileged people sample faux-working-class "artisan" products and observe both poor and ethnic-minority struggle from behind plate glass. Really distasteful.





> Get a grip. There is deprivation in all parts of the UK and yes some in brixton but does that mean we don't encourage people to open businesses, create jobs and wealth? I think you need to go back to school and study economics. Brixton is buzzing and it is helping put some hope into an area that used to have none.





> Champagne for toffs - oh come on. That's supposed to inspire hope amongst the urban poor is it? It is you who needs to get a grip


----------



## Effrasurfer (Sep 30, 2013)

Well if it comes to that, there are a lot of people round here who don't drink in Mango Landin or Effra Social or even Hootenanny because they are out of their price range.


----------



## editor (Sep 30, 2013)

Effrasurfer said:


> Well if it comes to that, there are a lot of people round here who don't drink in Mango Landin or Effra Social or even Hootenanny because they are out of their price range.


I find Hootananny a bit pricey for my tastes.


----------



## Effrasurfer (Sep 30, 2013)

Never mind Champagne + Fromage, round here we make our own fun,


----------



## Yelkcub (Sep 30, 2013)

As well as a bistro serving 40 covers, the premises will have a shop with fresh artisanal products from France.

Arti's Anal Products?


----------



## pissflaps (Sep 30, 2013)




----------



## Thimble Queen (Sep 30, 2013)

Ugh. Can't they just fuck the fucking fuck off


----------



## Thimble Queen (Sep 30, 2013)

> it is helping put some hope into an area that used to have none



NO.


----------



## Yelkcub (Sep 30, 2013)

It does appear that the new Brixxy peeps are orchestrating a massive wind-up on the old Brixxy peeps.

This place is appears to be almost built to infuriate you guys.


----------



## Rushy (Sep 30, 2013)

Effrasurfer said:


> Well if it comes to that, there are a lot of people round here who don't drink in Mango Landin or Effra Social or even Hootenanny because they are out of their price range.


Or Federation.
Wasn't someone on here recently put out by the the price of Coffee in San Marino.


----------



## Manter (Sep 30, 2013)

I've just been in Maidenhead (don't ask) and everyone seems to have heard of this place... So if nothing else they have very efficient marketing


----------



## editor (Sep 30, 2013)

Manter said:


> I've just been in Maidenhead (don't ask) and everyone seems to have heard of this place... So if nothing else they have very efficient marketing


I imagine it's because they have good PR and ambitious plans - they already intend to expand to four or five places in London.


----------



## Winot (Oct 1, 2013)

editor said:


> I imagine it's because they have good PR and ambitious plans - they already intend to expand to four or five places in London.



Like this guy?



editor said:


> Just come back from a meeting with the brewery and we're hoping to massively upgrade production, so hopefully we'll have the beer available in several outlets in a month or so, maybe less.


----------



## editor (Oct 3, 2013)

Yuppies Out are holding a street party to coincide with the opening.  

http://www.brixtonbuzz.com/2013/10/...and-fromage-protest-street-party15th-october/


----------



## fredfelt (Oct 3, 2013)

editor said:


> Yuppies Out are holding a street party to coincide with the opening.
> 
> http://www.brixtonbuzz.com/2013/10/...and-fromage-protest-street-party15th-october/



Champagne & Fromage should really cash in on the attention and offer Champagne to the protesters.  What could go wrong?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 3, 2013)

editor said:


> Yuppies Out are holding a street party to coincide with the opening.
> 
> http://www.brixtonbuzz.com/2013/10/...and-fromage-protest-street-party15th-october/


see you there


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 3, 2013)

fredfelt said:


> Champagne & Fromage should really cash in on the attention and offer Champagne to the protesters.  What could go wrong?


----------



## Rushy (Oct 3, 2013)

editor said:


> Yuppies Out are holding a street party to coincide with the opening.
> 
> http://www.brixtonbuzz.com/2013/10/...and-fromage-protest-street-party15th-october/



Good to see Yuppies Out supporting Matthew Clark with a White Ace promotion.



> We are excited to work with you to develop your style bar venue, whether that's creating a new cocktail menu or offering bartending training advice through our Flow online training.


----------



## Rushy (Oct 3, 2013)

A spokesperson for Mondelēz International is quoted as saying:



> We are delighted to see that our Dairy Lea slices are a firm favourite amongst members of anarchist group Yuppies Out and we wish them every success with their forthcoming protest against the latest in an alarming trend of pretentious fledgling business which thinks it's oh so bloody clever to source products from small independent producers.


----------



## Manter (Oct 3, 2013)

Rushy said:


> A spokesperson for Mondelez International is quoted as saying:
> 
> ​


You're missing the funny ē in Mondelēz

/Internet pedantry FTW


----------



## Rushy (Oct 3, 2013)

Manter said:


> You're missing the funny ē in Mondelēz
> 
> /Internet pedantry FTW


No idea how to do that so have copy and pasted from yours!


----------



## cuppa tee (Oct 3, 2013)

Any inexperienced anarcho-activists should be aware that this ..............





............would make a fairly shit molotov cocktail.


----------



## editor (Oct 3, 2013)

Rushy said:


> A spokesperson for Mondelēz International is quoted as saying:


I see you liked your own comment so much that you felt compelled to also add it to the Brixton Buzz page. 

I'm not sure the people from Yuppies Out will ever be able to recover from such a savaging.


----------



## editor (Oct 3, 2013)

cuppa tee said:


> Any inexperienced anarcho-activists should be aware that this ..............
> ............would make a fairly shit molotov cocktail.


Gets you pissed cheaply though.


----------



## Rushy (Oct 3, 2013)

editor said:


> I see you liked your own comment so much that you felt compelled to also add it to the Brixton Buzz page.
> 
> I'm not sure the people from Yuppies Out will ever be able to recover from such a savaging.


I see you liked the sound of your own smug article so much that you posted a link to it on here.


----------



## editor (Oct 3, 2013)

Rushy said:


> I see you liked the sound of your own article so much that you posted a link to it on here.


----------



## Rushy (Oct 3, 2013)

editor said:


>



You are getting a little obsessed with following me about and criticising everything I say and do at the moment Ed. Could you not just put me on ignore? Please? It's not like copy and pasting my own comment onto the relevant article is breaking any rules.


----------



## cuppa tee (Oct 3, 2013)

editor said:


> Gets you pissed cheaply though.



Get pissed
destroy

possaboy


----------



## Winot (Oct 3, 2013)

Rushy said:


> A spokesperson for Mondelēz International is quoted as saying:
> 
> ​



Begone with you and your pesky facts.


----------



## Rushy (Oct 3, 2013)

Winot said:


> Begone with you and your pesky facts.


They are definitely not in vogue at the present time.


----------



## editor (Oct 3, 2013)

Champagne & Fromage remain 'so excited' about opening in Brixton and have declared their love for the place. 

Let's, err, bubble soon.

 

https://twitter.com/Champ_Fromage


----------



## Rushy (Oct 3, 2013)

ed.

If you want to send a conciliatory PM to me that's fine. But if you want to bully me by PM it really is not fine and I would rather you continued to do so in public.

Accusing me of sneering at Yuppies out is ridiculous in the context of the thread.
Your blog is public and accusing me of posting on it under a false name is ridiculous. I posted under the name of of an International Conglomerate and the text makes it obvious that it is a joke. It is satire. It was obviously from me and you knew it was obviously from me.
Calling your article smug is an opinion. I think it is smug. And I only said so after you decided to have a pop at me for reproducing my own post.

Telling me that you are telling me off in private because you don't want to add to the toxicity of this thread is *fucking out of line.*

Get over it.


----------



## editor (Oct 3, 2013)

Rushy said:


> --


I'm not even going to respond to that bag of hypocritical, twisted misinterpretations from what was supposed to be a private conversation. Please keep any further posts in this thread on topic. Thanks.


----------



## Rushy (Oct 3, 2013)

editor said:


> I'm not even going to respond to that bag of hypocritical, twisted misinterpretations from what was supposed to be a private conversation. Please keep any further posts in this thread on topic. Thanks.


I will happily upload a screen shot of the "discourse" if that's ok with you?


----------



## editor (Oct 3, 2013)

Rushy said:


> I will happily upload a screen shot of the "discourse" if that's ok with you?


Jeez, I thought I was supposed to be the 'obsessed' one and the one who needs to "get over it" here?  

Private discussions are never for sharing publicly, although I stand by every word I said.

Now I will ask you again to stop disrupting this thread because all this is entirely off topic. You are of course free to continue your beef (if you must), but please take it to another thread.


----------



## ffsear (Oct 3, 2013)

Champagnes a fucking chavs drink anyway.


----------



## Rushy (Oct 3, 2013)

editor said:


> Jeez, I thought I was supposed to be the 'obsessed' one and the one who needs to "get over it" here?
> 
> Private discussions are never for sharing publicly, although I stand by every word I said.
> 
> Now I will ask you again to stop disrupting this thread because all this is entirely off topic. You are of course free to continue your beef (if you must), but please take it to another thread.



So that's a no? You accuse me of misrepresenting you but won't agree me to reproducing the conversation. Because there is a rule which says that should _never _happen.
Only one of us has something to hide here, fella.

Happy for you to take further discussion to another public thread if you want to respond. You choose. They're your boards.


----------



## clandestino (Oct 3, 2013)

editor said:


> Yuppies Out are holding a street party to coincide with the opening.
> 
> http://www.brixtonbuzz.com/2013/10/...and-fromage-protest-street-party15th-october/



Hmm. Seems Yuppies Out have changed the name of the protest to "SHOVE YOUR CHAMPAGNE AND FROMAGE UP YOUR CRIPPLED YUPPIE ARSE. STREET PARTY."

Someone has quite reasonably asked for the word crippled to be removed, only for YO to reply: "Why?"



Great. So the people protesting against the yuppies are as clueless, thoughtless and insensitive as the yuppies themselves. Just what we need.


----------



## TruXta (Oct 3, 2013)

FFS, way to shoot yourself in the foot.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 3, 2013)

Rushy said:


> Only one of us has something to hide here, fella.


the only people i've previously encountered who say 'fella' are cops.


----------



## clandestino (Oct 3, 2013)

TruXta said:


> FFS, way to shoot yourself in the foot.



Yes, isn't it? It reflects very poorly on Brixton Buzz now, as they linked to it before it had that title, but people following the link from their story would think they endorse that title. Might be something you need to chase up or make an amendment to your story editor


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 3, 2013)

cuppa tee said:


> Any inexperienced anarcho-activists should be aware that this ..............
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Manter (Oct 3, 2013)

Rushy said:


> No idea how to do that so have copy and pasted from yours!


The name was the result of an employee competition, apparently. Though why they chose a name noone can type is a mystery


----------



## editor (Oct 3, 2013)

ianw said:


> Yes, isn't it? It reflects very poorly on Brixton Buzz now, as they linked to it before it had that title, but people following the link from their story would think they endorse that title. Might be something you need to chase up or make an amendment to your story editor


I don't like the title at all, but the BBuzz story doesn't carry it and I hope they change it swiftly.


----------



## ffsear (Oct 3, 2013)

That yuppies out page on facebook is an embarrassment.


----------



## clandestino (Oct 3, 2013)

editor said:


> I don't like the title at all, but the BBuzz story doesn't carry it and I hope they change it swiftly.



I'd add a postscript saying the title has been changed, otherwise it looks as if you endorse the title.


----------



## Rushy (Oct 3, 2013)

ianw said:


> Yes, isn't it? It reflects very poorly on Brixton Buzz now, as they linked to it before it had that title, but people following the link from their story would think they endorse that title.



I was about to quote someone on the site but as I edited out the surname I clocked it was probably you


----------



## ska invita (Oct 3, 2013)

ffsear said:


> That yuppies out page on facebook is an embarrassment.


is it a Fat White Family thing?


----------



## Thimble Queen (Oct 3, 2013)

ska invita said:


> is it a Fat White Family thing?



yep


----------



## TruXta (Oct 3, 2013)

Is it now. It all makes a bit more sense now.


----------



## editor (Oct 3, 2013)

ianw said:


> I'd add a postscript saying the title has been changed, otherwise it looks as if you endorse the title.


I have indeed added a note at the bottom of the page.


----------



## clandestino (Oct 3, 2013)

editor said:


> I don't like the title at all, but the BBuzz story doesn't carry it and I hope they change it swiftly.



They've said they won't be changing the title, so that's that. Does Brixton Buzz endorse that title?


----------



## clandestino (Oct 3, 2013)

editor said:


> I have indeed added a note at the bottom of the page.



Good.


----------



## clandestino (Oct 3, 2013)

Rushy said:


> I was about to quote someone on the site but as I edited out the surname I clocked it was probably you



And in fact my comments about it being no better than a hipster flash mob have been deleted. Obviously it doesn't fit in with their wacky, edgy agenda.


----------



## editor (Oct 3, 2013)

ianw said:


> They've said they won't be changing the title, so that's that. Does Brixton Buzz endorse that title?


Just because we list an event, it really doesn't mean that we 'endorse' everything about it, and I'm not entirely sure everyone would assume that either.


----------



## Rushy (Oct 3, 2013)

ianw said:


> And in fact my comments about it being no better than a hipster flash mob have been deleted. Obviously it doesn't fit in with their wacky, edgy agenda.



I copied them if you decide you want them back!

I've noticed at least a couple of staff from different popular local pub/clubs supporting and contributing to the event with the name of their employers clearly displayed. Seems a bit risky. By all means get stuck in if it's the way you feel but no employer is going to want to be associated with that.


----------



## clandestino (Oct 3, 2013)

editor said:


> Just because we list an event, it really doesn't mean that we 'endorse' everything about it, and I'm not entirely sure everyone would assume that either.



Yes, but with the word crippled being used so prominently in the title, it's definitely worth pointing out that you don't endorse the use of such language. I bet you wouldn't have written such a supportive piece if you'd have seen the cripple title in the first place. It just leaves a very sour taste in the mouth. And it does, frankly, just make it look like a wacky flash mob. 

Anyway you've added the ps, which I think was a good idea.


----------



## leanderman (Oct 3, 2013)

ianw said:


> Yes, but with the word crippled being used so prominently in the title, it's definitely worth pointing out that you don't endorse the use of such language. I bet you wouldn't have written such a supportive piece if you'd have seen the cripple title in the first place. It just leaves a very sour taste in the mouth. And it does, frankly, just make it look like a wacky flash mob.
> 
> Anyway you've added the ps, which I think was a good idea.



just as long as they don't get between me and the fromage


----------



## DietCokeGirl (Oct 3, 2013)

But......your arse would be adversely affected it it had cheese and champagne shoved up it....


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Oct 3, 2013)

Just gave the fat white family a listen. They appear to be completely shit - good job they've got a gimmick.


----------



## TruXta (Oct 3, 2013)

Yeah, that of being cunts.


----------



## leanderman (Oct 3, 2013)

DietCokeGirl said:


> But......your arse would be adversely affected it it had cheese and champagne shoved up it....



right


----------



## Rushy (Oct 3, 2013)

DietCokeGirl said:


> But......your arse would be adversely affected it it had cheese and champagne shoved up it....


I think that largely depends on whether the champagne is still in the flute.


----------



## editor (Oct 3, 2013)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> Just gave the fat white family a listen. They appear to be completely shit - good job they've got a gimmick.


They have their moments. When I put them on at the Albert they fluctuated between utter shit and utter brilliance. I really liked them, but they split opinion right down the middle of the crowd. Still, at last no one could accuse them of being bland and inoffensive!


----------



## leanderman (Oct 3, 2013)

Rushy said:


> I think that largely depends on whether the champagne is still in the flute.



It could be crippling


----------



## TruXta (Oct 3, 2013)

editor said:


> They have their moments. When I put them on at the Albert they fluctuated between utter shit and utter brilliance. I really liked them, but they split opinion right down the middle of the crowd. Still, at last no one could accuse them of being bland and inoffensive!


Musically I found them to be try-hards, and yes, fairly bland. Anyway, maybe they'll do a gig at the Vommage opening then?


----------



## ska invita (Oct 3, 2013)

TruXta said:


> Musically I found them to be try-hards, and yes, fairly bland. Anyway, maybe they'll do a gig at the Vommage opening then?


they will, they are top of the bill: 
https://www.facebook.com/events/600109173387988/

"We will be providing FREE DAIRYLEA CHEESE SLICES AND WHITE ACE CIDER, and there will be live music from the FAT WHITE FAMILY, MEAT RAFFLE and whoever else wants to come and play. THE AIM IS TO TRY AND DISTURB THE YUPPIE INFIDELS SO MUCH THAT THEY CHOKE ON THEIR RANCID FIZZ AND VINTAGE DEATH CHEESE. "
thats why i wondered if it was them behind it


----------



## TruXta (Oct 3, 2013)

ska invita said:


> they will, they are top of the bill:
> https://www.facebook.com/events/600109173387988/
> 
> "We will be providing FREE DAIRYLEA CHEESE SLICES AND WHITE ACE CIDER, and there will be live music from the FAT WHITE FAMILY, MEAT RAFFLE and whoever else wants to come and play. THE AIM IS TO TRY AND DISTURB THE YUPPIE INFIDELS SO MUCH THAT THEY CHOKE ON THEIR RANCID FIZZ AND VINTAGE DEATH CHEESE. "
> thats why i wondered if it was them behind it


Cheers, didn't see that. So basically the whole thing is one big PR stunt for a Butthole Surfers tribute band.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 3, 2013)

TruXta said:


> Cheers, didn't see that. So basically the whole thing is one big PR stunt for a Butthole Surfers tribute band.


well, if you think this was a PR stunt for them, then yes





but maybe we're all too cynical
and maybe that bloke really isnt racist
champagne and fromage is shit though, i know that


----------



## Thimble Queen (Oct 3, 2013)

ska invita said:


> THE AIM IS TO TRY AND DISTURB THE YUPPIE INFIDELS SO MUCH THAT THEY CHOKE ON THEIR RANCID FIZZ AND VINTAGE DEATH CHEESE. "



they do make me laugh tho...


----------



## TruXta (Oct 3, 2013)

ska invita said:


> well, if you think this was a PR stunt for them, then yes
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wouldn't put it past any given punk rock band really. People do some really cynical shit in order to get to the top of the heap, and Brixton has become a buzzword again. Plus it never hurts to be seen to be against Foxton does it?


----------



## ska invita (Oct 3, 2013)

MrsDarlingsKiss said:


> they do me laugh tho...


yeah, i dont know them, maybe they are alright. Other posters here do and say they are
trial by urban usually results in a verdict of GUILTY


----------



## TruXta (Oct 3, 2013)

ska invita said:


> yeah, i dont know them, maybe they are alright. Other posters here do and say they are
> trial by urban usually results in a verdict of GUILTY


Nah, several people have piped up based on real life encounters. Not me personally, I only saw them once in the Albert, hence me not being impressed by their music, which of course is no crime at all.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 3, 2013)

TruXta said:


> Nah, several people have piped up based on real life encounters.


piped up for or against?


----------



## Thimble Queen (Oct 3, 2013)

ska invita said:


> yeah, i dont know them, maybe they are alright. Other posters here do and say they are
> trial by urban usually results in a verdict of GUILTY



naw i dont know em either... i just lol at the pictures n stuff they put on fb


----------



## Badgers (Oct 3, 2013)

ska invita said:
			
		

> piped up for or against?



Mixed


----------



## TruXta (Oct 3, 2013)

ska invita said:


> piped up for or against?


Both.


----------



## cuppa tee (Oct 3, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


>



That looks like a glass bottle though, the White Ace one is plastic and flimsy plastic at that.
You'd have to be very careful if you filled it petrol and lit it, I'm dubious about the benefits C and F
will endow on Brixton but self immolation as an act of protest is maybe a step too far IMHO even if
Your demise was captured on camera and maybe used as a punk rock album cover.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 3, 2013)

cuppa tee said:


> That looks like a glass bottle though, the White Ace one is plastic and flimsy plastic at that.
> You'd have to be very careful if you filled it petrol and lit it, I'm dubious about the benefits C and F
> will endow on Brixton but self immolation as an act of protest is maybe a step too far IMHO even if
> Your demise was captured on camera and maybe even used as a punk rock album cover.


i thought that people might notice that a proper molotov is in a glass bottle, which would also be easier to throw further than a bloody great heavy 2 litre bottle filled with petrol


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Oct 3, 2013)

i've got some babycham and a multipack of cheesy wotsits, see you all on the 15th


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 3, 2013)

Event has been endorsed by Ian Bone 

Very much up his street I imagine.


----------



## gabi (Oct 4, 2013)

Rushy said:


> You are getting a little obsessed with following me about and criticising everything I say and do at the moment Ed. Could you not just put me on ignore? Please? It's not like copy and pasting my own comment onto the relevant article is breaking any rules.



I don't think ignore works for Mods, based on certain recent beefs. I'm sure they wish it did mind you.


----------



## gabi (Oct 4, 2013)

ianw said:


> Hmm. Seems Yuppies Out have changed the name of the protest to "SHOVE YOUR CHAMPAGNE AND FROMAGE UP YOUR CRIPPLED YUPPIE ARSE. STREET PARTY."
> 
> Someone has quite reasonably asked for the word crippled to be removed, only for YO to reply: "Why?"
> 
> ...



What a craven bunch of fuck knuckles.

this has been going on for years mind you. i've got an issue of the 'shoreditch twat' somewhere which ill scan later, the 9/11 - 2001 edition i think, the last page of which says something along the lines of 'fuck shoreditch, im moving to brixton'. this shit is nothing new.


----------



## Yelkcub (Oct 4, 2013)

editor said:


> Just because we list an event, it really doesn't mean that we 'endorse' everything about it, and I'm not entirely sure everyone would assume that either.



Are you willing to endorse anything about an event/group using 'crippled' as an insult? Even after it's been pointed out to them?


----------



## gabi (Oct 4, 2013)

Are these the same fuckwits who borrowed loads of equipment from the queens head then destroyed it at the Albert and fucked off? Mixed feelings if so.


----------



## rutabowa (Oct 4, 2013)

gabi said:


> Are these the same fuckwits who borrowed loads of equipment from the queens head then destroyed it at the Albert and fucked off?


i dunno if it is the same people, but just to be clear about what happened at that gig, it was all their own equipment!!


----------



## rutabowa (Oct 4, 2013)

Yelkcub said:


> Are you willing to endorse anything about an event/group using 'crippled' as an insult? Even after it's been pointed out to them?


it's been changed now.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 4, 2013)

Title changed: CHAMPAGNE HOLOCAUST. STREET PARTY



> As you may or may not know a dark cloud is ominously looming above the once pure skys of Brixton, this cloud is called CHAMPAGNE AND FROMAGE and from the 15th of October it will rain on us until we drown in a sea of estate agents, champagne swilling yummy mummies and the so called "fizz fiends"... cunts! WE WILL NOT STAND FOR THIS. DEATH TO CHAMPAGNE AND FROMAGE! YUPPIES OUT!
> 
> So you the people are here by cordially invited to the official YUPPIES OUT anti champagne and fromage street party which will be timed to coincide with the opening of their new cancerous venture inside the once glorious Granville arcade.
> 
> ...


----------



## Badgers (Oct 4, 2013)

*4pm* on a Tuesday though? Don't these people work? 

#brokenbritain


----------



## rutabowa (Oct 4, 2013)

Badgers said:


> *4pm* on a Tuesday though? Don't these people work?
> 
> #brokenbritain


probably work bohemian hours. i guess it will go on all evening tho.


----------



## aussw9 (Oct 4, 2013)

*Champagne+Fromage* ‏@Champ_Fromage22h
“@teamdb: Brixton gets its first Champagne bar http://ow.ly/ppZB4 #champagne #wine” @Frenchbubbles WE LOVE BRIXTON!!

I wonder if they are aware of how much Brixton loves them? Daaarling


----------



## Rushy (Oct 4, 2013)

Badgers said:


> Title changed: CHAMPAGNE HOLOCAUST. STREET PARTY


Ah - so it _is _a promo for their album "Champagne Holocaust".
Ingenious marketing. Very clever. Martin Sorrell would be proud.


----------



## salem (Oct 4, 2013)

TruXta said:


> Wouldn't put it past any given punk rock band really. People do some really cynical shit in order to get to the top of the heap, and Brixton has become a buzzword again. Plus it never hurts to be seen to be against Foxton does it?


And when your album is called Champagne Holocaust (digital download or limited edition vinyl available in shops now!) well you'd be stupid to turn down such a great bit of free publicity.


----------



## TruXta (Oct 4, 2013)

salem said:


> And when your album is called Champagne Holocaust (digital download or limited edition vinyl available in shops now!) well you'd be stupid to turn down such a great bit of free publicity.


Is that a fact?


----------



## rutabowa (Oct 4, 2013)

YES AVAILABLE RIGHT HERE! http://fatwhitefamily.bandcamp.com/


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 4, 2013)

Badgers said:


> Title changed: CHAMPAGNE HOLOCAUST. STREET PARTY


if anything using the word holocaust is worse than using the word crippled #whatthefuck


----------



## TruXta (Oct 4, 2013)

I keep losing what little respect I had for these guys.


----------



## rutabowa (Oct 4, 2013)

TruXta said:


> I keep losing what little respect I had for these guys.


ha be serious you didn't have any to lose!


----------



## Onket (Oct 4, 2013)

Badgers said:


> *4pm* on a Tuesday though? Don't these people work?
> 
> #brokenbritain


 
You going? Might be worth heading down and telling these fuckwits what I think of them (I don't mean the shop).


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 4, 2013)

Onket said:


> You going? Might be worth heading down and telling these fuckwits what I think of them (I don't mean the shop).


a plague on both their houses?


----------



## TruXta (Oct 4, 2013)

rutabowa said:


> ha be serious you didn't have any to lose!


Not much, true, but they're plumbing new depths now.


----------



## Ms T (Oct 4, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> if anything using the word holocaust is worse than using the word crippled #whatthefuck


 
I agree.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Oct 4, 2013)

ffsear said:


> Champagnes a fucking chavs drink anyway.


 
your name goes on the list.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 4, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> your name goes on the list.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Oct 4, 2013)

MrsDarlingsKiss said:


> they do make me laugh tho...


 
me too.


----------



## clandestino (Oct 4, 2013)

Oh so it's just a stunt to promote their album? They're turning a serious issue into a marketing prank? Oh, they must be so proud of themselves. Just listened to FWF for the first time, so obviously the prank is working. And I quite like the song I'm listening to right now. But stuff like this is all a bit Hoxton Twat/Vice Mag isn't it? Yeah, well edgy.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Oct 4, 2013)

i think they're serious about their politics, if a little unfocused.  i suspect they see it more as music as an act of protest needs actual protest to be anything more than just posturing.  but they;re well young, you know.  middle-aged liberals are never going to agree with them.

personally i like a band who like to wind people up.


----------



## TruXta (Oct 4, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> i think they're serious about their politics, if a little unfocused.  i suspect they see it more as music as an act of protest needs actual protest to be anything more than just posturing.  but they;re well young, you know.  middle-aged liberals are never going to agree with them.
> 
> personally i like a band who like to wind people up.


Even if that entails a little bit of racism?


----------



## editor (Oct 4, 2013)

ianw said:


> Oh so it's just a stunt to promote their album?


I'm all for a bit of cynicism, but I really don't think that's what it is, especially considering they've only just got rid of the original (awful) title for the event.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 4, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> personally i like a band who like to wind people up.


not always true i hope


----------



## clandestino (Oct 4, 2013)

editor said:


> I'm all for a bit of cynicism, but I really don't think that's what it is, especially considering they've only just got rid of the original (awful) title for the event.



So it's just a coincidence that the original name of the event, which they've now reverted to, is also the name of their new album?


----------



## rutabowa (Oct 4, 2013)

ianw said:


> Just listened to FWF for the first time, so obviously the prank is working. And I quite like the song I'm listening to right now.


the live show is really where it's at.


----------



## clandestino (Oct 4, 2013)

You don't think they thought "Hey, our album's called Champagne Holocaust, this new champagne bar is a contentious issue, we can do something here to get some publicity! But what..."


----------



## rutabowa (Oct 4, 2013)

ianw said:


> You don't think they thought "Hey, our album's called Champagne Holocaust, this new champagne bar is a contentious issue, we can do something here to get some publicity! But what..."


nah i 100% don't believe that, in all honesty. they've done tons of similar things with no obvious link to the band.


----------



## clandestino (Oct 4, 2013)

They must be laughing themselves stupid. Look at all the suckers who have bought into it. 

I assume their act of political protest will also include selling their album after they've played?


----------



## clandestino (Oct 4, 2013)

rutabowa said:


> nah i 100% don't believe that, in all honesty. they've done tons of similar things with no obvious link to the band.



And yet they innocently title the event the name of their album?


----------



## rutabowa (Oct 4, 2013)

ianw said:


> They must be laughing themselves stupid. Look at all the suckers who have bought into it.
> 
> I assume their act of political protest will also include selling their album after they've played?


i've never known them to sell anything at their shows. all the shows they do themselves are free.


----------



## clandestino (Oct 4, 2013)

rutabowa said:


> i've never known them to sell anything at their shows. all the shows they do themselves are free.



They never sell their albums at gigs? I can't believe that.


----------



## rutabowa (Oct 4, 2013)

ianw said:


> And yet they innocently title the event the name of their album?


believe it or not, not everyone is cynical.


----------



## rutabowa (Oct 4, 2013)

ianw said:


> They never sell their albums at gigs? I can't believe that.


ok, don't believe it.

hang on they once did at the actual album launch.


----------



## editor (Oct 4, 2013)

ianw said:


> So it's just a coincidence that the original name of the event, which they've now reverted to, is also the name of their new album?


I had no idea at all that they _even had an album out_ until someone posted up the link to it here, and as far as I can see the Facebook event makes no mention of it either. So no, I don't agree with your take on things here.


----------



## rutabowa (Oct 4, 2013)

honestly they are the least mercenary/most clueless about money/"career" out of any band i ever met (and that is saying something). i reckon they just named it that because they had to think of a new name in a hurry and that kind of fitted


----------



## editor (Oct 4, 2013)

ianw said:


> They never sell their albums at gigs? I can't believe that.


I don't think I've ever seen albums for sale at their gigs.


----------



## clandestino (Oct 4, 2013)

rutabowa said:


> honestly they are the least mercenary/most clueless about money/"career" out of any band i ever met (and that is saying something). i reckon they just named it that because they had to think of a new name in a hurry and that kind of fitted



No it was the original name of the event until they changed it to the cripple name.


----------



## Rushy (Oct 4, 2013)

I only found out about the album from looking at their facebook event page after Urban linked to.


----------



## rutabowa (Oct 4, 2013)

ianw said:


> No it was the original name of the event until they changed it to the cripple name.


you reckon they change it the first time knowing that people would object to the second name so much that they would have to change it back? they must have some pretty heavy online marketing campaign team behind them i guess.


----------



## clandestino (Oct 4, 2013)

All I'm saying it what happened. It was originally titled the same as the album, then changed to the cripple name, then changed back. That was just in response to your suggestion that they had to think of something in a hurry.

Anyway, enough of this. If someone buys into it or dismisses it as a stunt, it's not really here or there for me. I just wish what could have been a legitimate protest about what could really be a tipping point for Brixton was being done differently. 

I won't be going but I guess I'll read all about it, and their new album, on the Vice website.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Oct 4, 2013)

TruXta said:


> Even if that entails a little bit of racism?


 
being approving of wind-up merchants is not the same as being uncritical of their behaviour.


----------



## TruXta (Oct 4, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> being approving of wind-up merchants is not the same as being uncritical of their behaviour.


The Lord giveth, The Lord taketh.


----------



## rutabowa (Oct 4, 2013)

ianw said:


> Anyway, enough of this. If someone buys into it or dismisses it as a stunt, it's not really here or there for me. I just wish what could have been a legitimate protest about what could really be a tipping point for Brixton was being done differently.


i guess i think that much as it is all probably silly and misguided at least they are getting out and doing something rather than just complaining on the internet. i'm sure "legitimate protest" woudl be good too but noone is doing it are they? at the very least it is getting people talking about it and probably getting people involved who wouldn't otherwise. i am sure it is all futile anyway but it is nice to observe a bit of passion whilst i sit at home.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Oct 4, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> not always true i hope


 
no, not always.  but as a massive generalisation like the many other ones going on on this thread


----------



## rutabowa (Oct 4, 2013)

i always support marches.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Oct 4, 2013)

anyway, if anyone goes can you at least take photos if they are selling albums.  that way at least one issue is resolved.


----------



## rutabowa (Oct 4, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> anyway, if anyone goes can you at least take photos if they are selling albums.  that way at least one issue is resolved.


i know for a fact that they took a load of records and tshirts to europe to sell to try and recoup some of the loss that that tour will have made... and then lost them all.


----------



## TruXta (Oct 4, 2013)

rutabowa said:


> i know for a fact that they took a load of records and tshirts to europe to sell to try and recoup some of the loss that that tour will have made... and then lost them all.


Ketamine is a hell of a drug.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Oct 4, 2013)

rutabowa said:


> i know for a fact that they took a load of records and tshirts to europe to sell to try and recoup some of the loss that that tour will have made... and then lost them all.


 

they are a fucking shambles aren't they?


----------



## rutabowa (Oct 4, 2013)

the idea that they have a cynical marketing masterplan is totally hilarious to me.


----------



## TruXta (Oct 4, 2013)

rutabowa said:


> the idea that they have a cynical marketing masterplan is totally hilarious to me.


You're the only one going on about a master plan. Personally I suspect someone thought this was a hilarious idea, like the cripple joke, not really thinking it through.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Oct 4, 2013)

having briefly met a few of them, and concluded that these are people who regularly lose their own shoes, i seriously doubt that there is a masterplan (beyond trying to earn enough money to keep them in class a substances whilst at the same time never actually making money because you know charging for stuff is capitalism).

their manager might have one though.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Oct 4, 2013)

TruXta said:


> You're the only one going on about a master plan. Personally I suspect someone thought this was a hilarious idea, like the cripple joke, not really thinking it through.


 
yeah, i think they're a bit stimulous-response tbh.  i'm sure they mean it, but they're a bit irony (and ketamine) soaked.  product of the age though innit.


----------



## TruXta (Oct 4, 2013)

I


el-ahrairah said:


> yeah, i think they're a bit stimulous-response tbh.  i'm sure they mean it, but they're a bit irony (and ketamine) soaked.  product of the age though innit.


thought we were in the post-irony age now? Did I not get a memo?


----------



## rutabowa (Oct 4, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> their manager might have one though.


hopefully. i do not envy his job.


----------



## Dan U (Oct 4, 2013)

rutabowa said:


> hopefully. i do not envy his job.



sounds like he is a good guerrilla marketeer anyway.


----------



## rutabowa (Oct 4, 2013)

Dan U said:


> sounds like he is a good guerrilla marketeer anyway.


100% this thing is nothing to do with any manager, or part of any marketing campaign!


----------



## cuppa tee (Oct 4, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> their manager might have one though.


Management would not be doing their job properly if they didn't.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Oct 4, 2013)

TruXta said:


> I
> 
> thought we were in the post-irony age now? Did I not get a memo?


 
did anyone tell the young people?


----------



## TruXta (Oct 4, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> did anyone tell the young people?


What, are you insinuating that I am old?


----------



## el-ahrairah (Oct 4, 2013)

TruXta said:


> What, are you insinuating that I am old?


 
to me, no.  to a fresh-faced 20 year old you're fucking ancient.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Oct 4, 2013)

get with the programme daddio-o etc.  we're so far behind cool around here that the only people who know about trends later than us are guardian-reading trendy islingtonites.  who still think we're cutting edge.


----------



## snowy_again (Oct 4, 2013)

They're not exactly competent when it comes to being inclusive about others than their ilk though are they? 

Their responses to the questioning of the phrases 'crippled' and 'spastic' are cringe worthy.


----------



## T & P (Oct 4, 2013)

I'm all for a bit of a laugh and a street party, but seriously does anyone (or rather, _should _anyone) give a flying fuck if a new business in a market already full of joints offering food and drink is going to be selling champagne? I mean... _really_???

I'm infinitely more bothered by the myriad of chain corporations selling mobile phones, clothes and groceries, the loan shark shops and the appalling junk food outlets, whether independent or franchises that comprise the overwhelming majority of shops in Brixton than I'm ever going to be by a small business offering a drink that happens to be associated with rich folk. Good fucking luck to them as far as I'm concerned.

*awaits the storm*


----------



## Thimble Queen (Oct 4, 2013)

TruXta said:


> What, are you insinuating that I am old?


 
You *remember* who Laura Palmer was


----------



## TruXta (Oct 4, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> get with the programme daddio-o etc.  we're so far behind cool around here that the only people who know about trends later than us are guardian-reading trendy islingtonites.  who still think we're cutting edge.


Speak for yourself!


----------



## TruXta (Oct 4, 2013)

MrsDarlingsKiss said:


> You *remember* who Laura Palmer was


Shush little one.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 4, 2013)




----------



## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Oct 4, 2013)

rutabowa said:


> i know for a fact that they took a load of records and tshirts to europe to sell to try and recoup some of the loss that that tour will have made... and then lost them all.


Sounds a bit like some other people I know.


----------



## rutabowa (Oct 4, 2013)

snowy_again said:


> They're not exactly competent when it comes to being inclusive about others than their ilk though are they?
> 
> Their responses to the questioning of the phrases 'crippled' and 'spastic' are cringe worthy.


even this response when they changed the name?
"this is not an attack on disabled/crippled people, a misuse of language maybe, accept our most humble apologies and join us"


----------



## rutabowa (Oct 4, 2013)

T & P said:


> I'm all for a bit of a laugh and a street party, but seriously does anyone (or rather, _should _anyone) give a flying fuck if a new business in a market already full of joints offering food and drink is going to be selling champagne? I mean... _really_???
> 
> I'm infinitely more bothered by the myriad of chain corporations selling mobile phones, clothes and groceries, the loan shark shops and the appalling junk food outlets, whether independent or franchises that comprise the overwhelming majority of shops in Brixton than I'm ever going to be by a small business offering a drink that happens to be associated with rich folk. Good fucking luck to them as far as I'm concerned.
> 
> *awaits the storm*


yeah i can see your point of view.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 4, 2013)

A Holocaust of Champagne will boost our crippled British economy​


----------



## leanderman (Oct 4, 2013)

Badgers said:


> A Holocaust of Champagne will boost our crippled British economy​



I hope the protesters don't discover that the Albert sells champagne!


----------



## Badgers (Oct 4, 2013)

leanderman said:


> I hope the protesters don't discover that the Albert sells champagne!



Hush now 

P.S. The Albert also sells *Stoup *


----------



## Thimble Queen (Oct 4, 2013)

TruXta said:


> Even if that entails a little bit of racism?


 
Genuine question: where have they been racist?


----------



## TruXta (Oct 4, 2013)

MrsDarlingsKiss said:


> Genuine question: where have they been racist?


Not they, but one member reportedly went on a racist rant in the Grosvenor.


----------



## snowy_again (Oct 4, 2013)

rutabowa said:


> even this response when they changed the name?
> "this is not an attack on disabled/crippled people, a misuse of language maybe, accept our most humble apologies and join us"



yup, they may have changed the name, but they use the phrase often in the comments below. 

It reads more like 'save me for a k-hole' than 'save a community'


----------



## rutabowa (Oct 4, 2013)

snowy_again said:


> yup, they may have changed the name


changed the name and humbly apologised. the phrase "emotional cripple" is in really common use, bad as that may be, at least they listened and realised and changed.


----------



## rutabowa (Oct 4, 2013)

TruXta said:


> Not they, but one member reportedly went on a racist rant in the Grosvenor.


... which i find really difficult almost impossible to believe having known the guy for quite some time.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 4, 2013)

rutabowa said:


> ... which i find really difficult almost impossible to believe having known the guy for quite some time.



This conversation has been done to death. Beyond death even.


----------



## rutabowa (Oct 4, 2013)

Badgers said:


> This conversation has been done to death. Beyond death even.


well quite. was just summing up, as the rumour was brought up again.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 4, 2013)

rutabowa said:


> well quite. was just summing up, as the rumour was brought up again.



Good good


----------



## Thimble Queen (Oct 4, 2013)

TruXta said:


> Not they, but one member reportedly went on a racist rant in the Grosvenor.



Ah ok. Hadn't heard about that. Don't know the story/was there so it'd be unfair of me to comment. Btw not asking for details


----------



## T & P (Oct 4, 2013)

leanderman said:


> I hope the protesters don't discover that the Albert sells champagne!


No more Offline gigs there


----------



## Badgers (Oct 4, 2013)

T & P said:


> No more Offline gigs there



It is cheap
It is shit 
Nobody buys it


----------



## Onket (Oct 4, 2013)

T & P said:


> I'm all for a bit of a laugh and a street party, but seriously does anyone (or rather, _should _anyone) give a flying fuck if a new business in a market already full of joints offering food and drink is going to be selling champagne? I mean... _really_???
> 
> I'm infinitely more bothered by the myriad of chain corporations selling mobile phones, clothes and groceries, the loan shark shops and the appalling junk food outlets, whether independent or franchises that comprise the overwhelming majority of shops in Brixton than I'm ever going to be by a small business offering a drink that happens to be associated with rich folk. Good fucking luck to them as far as I'm concerned.
> 
> *awaits the storm*


 
I'm almost with you.

I will be going down there to tell anyone with trousers tighter than mine to get the fuck out of Brixton, they are part of the fucking problem. 

I will be wearing Nike trainers.


----------



## Dan U (Oct 4, 2013)

Onket said:


> I'm almost with you.
> 
> I will be going down there to tell anyone with trousers tighter than mine to get the fuck out of Brixton, they are part of the fucking problem.
> 
> I will be wearing Swindon kit, head to toe.



fixed it for you Onket


----------



## el-ahrairah (Oct 4, 2013)

that reminds me, i need to buy some trainers.  i haven't owned a pair for months now and i'm getting sick of wearing my walking boots everywhere.  where in penge can you buy cheap trainers?


----------



## Badgers (Oct 4, 2013)

Dan U said:


> fixed it for you Onket



#fullkitwanker


----------



## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Oct 4, 2013)

MrsDarlingsKiss said:


> Ah ok. Hadn't heard about that. Don't know the story/was there so it'd be unfair of me to comment. Btw not asking for details



I would say it also seems a bit unfair to even bring up as a comment (almost as a matter of fact 'statement of fact') if it is from that other thread.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 4, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> that reminds me, i need to buy some trainers.  i haven't owned a pair for months now and i'm getting sick of wearing my walking boots everywhere.  where in penge can you buy cheap trainers?



TK Maxx


----------



## Onket (Oct 4, 2013)

Dan U said:


> fixed it for you Onket


 
Not a fan of replica shirts, tbf.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Oct 4, 2013)

Badgers said:


> TK Maxx


 
where in penge is the tk maxx?  haven't seen it yet.


----------



## Dan U (Oct 4, 2013)

Onket said:


> Not a fan of replica shirts, tbf.



it's a bit working class for Brixton anyway.


----------



## Onket (Oct 4, 2013)

Dan U said:


> it's a bit working class for Brixton anyway.


 
Football kits haven't been working class for years, surely?


----------



## Dan U (Oct 4, 2013)

Onket said:


> Football kits haven't been working class for years, surely?



i wasn't being serious Onket


----------



## Onket (Oct 4, 2013)

Dan U said:


> i wasn't being serious Onket


 
I am only ever serious.


----------



## Dan U (Oct 4, 2013)

Onket said:


> I am only ever serious.



we both know that not to be the case


----------



## TruXta (Oct 4, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> that reminds me, i need to buy some trainers.  i haven't owned a pair for months now and i'm getting sick of wearing my walking boots everywhere.  where in penge can you buy cheap trainers?


There's only Benson Shoe on the High St, not sure if they do trainers. You might be better off in Brixton or Croydon.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 4, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> where in penge is the tk maxx?  haven't seen it yet.



 

I am getting these next


----------



## cesare (Oct 4, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> that reminds me, i need to buy some trainers.  i haven't owned a pair for months now and i'm getting sick of wearing my walking boots everywhere.  where in penge can you buy cheap trainers?


If you go to Croydon you can hurl some passing oaths at the BNP tomorrow.


----------



## TruXta (Oct 4, 2013)

MrsDarlingsKiss said:


> Ah ok. Hadn't heard about that. Don't know the story/was there so it'd be unfair of me to comment. Btw not asking for details


There's a thread on them somewhere, it's all in there.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Oct 4, 2013)

cesare said:


> If you go to Croydon you can hurl some passing oaths at the BNP tomorrow.


 
it'd make a nice change for them to actually be in the vicinity when i'm swearing at them...


----------



## cesare (Oct 4, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> it'd make a nice change for them to actually be in the vicinity when i'm swearing at them...


They'll be gathered round Lunar House, Wellesley Rd if you want to take a swift detour out of the back of the Whitgift Centre


----------



## Thimble Queen (Oct 4, 2013)

TruXta said:


> There's a thread on them somewhere, it's all in there.


 
Maybe I'll read it one day when I haven't got anything better to do


----------



## TruXta (Oct 4, 2013)

MrsDarlingsKiss said:


> Maybe I'll read it one day when I haven't got anything better to do


That'll be a long wait then


----------



## Badgers (Oct 4, 2013)

I have decided to boycott Champagne & Fromage, boycott the protest and boycott the Fat White Family Band.


----------



## trabuquera (Oct 4, 2013)

aha, the omniboycott. sit at home with the curtains closed,  consuming no more than the bare minimum for survival in tablet form while knitting yourself a onesie from your own excess shedded hair. it's the only way to avoid collaboration with the forces of capitalist evil.

[none of this is directed personally at Badgers btw.]


----------



## Badgers (Oct 4, 2013)

Now I am boycotting this thread too


----------



## editor (Oct 4, 2013)

Badgers said:


> Now I am boycotting this thread too


I'm boycotting your boycott.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 4, 2013)

Can someone tell editor that I am boycotting him and the horses he rode in on please?


----------



## han (Oct 4, 2013)

T & P said:
			
		

> I'm all for a bit of a laugh and a street party, but seriously does anyone (or rather, should anyone) give a flying fuck if a new business in a market already full of joints offering food and drink is going to be selling champagne? I mean... really???
> 
> I'm infinitely more bothered by the myriad of chain corporations selling mobile phones, clothes and groceries, the loan shark shops and the appalling junk food outlets, whether independent or franchises that comprise the overwhelming majority of shops in Brixton than I'm ever going to be by a small business offering a drink that happens to be associated with rich folk. Good fucking luck to them as far as I'm concerned.
> 
> *awaits the storm*



Totally agree. This protest, the band stunt, etc just comes across as totally moronic. Direct action always has to have the moral highground to be effective, even it's done with humour.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Oct 4, 2013)

han said:


> Direct action always has to have the moral highground to be effective, even it's done with humour.


 
i'm not sure i agree with that, but 16:48 on friday afternoon on this thread is way not the time or place for that discussion


----------



## salem (Oct 4, 2013)

I can't see how it's any more offensive to the local 'working class' then JD Sports knocking out Nike's at £110 (seems maybe even £140 a pair now).


----------



## editor (Oct 4, 2013)

Looking at the Facebook page, there seems to be quite a few long term Brixtonites attending this event...


----------



## Thimble Queen (Oct 4, 2013)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> I would say it also seems a bit unfair to even bring up as a comment (almost as a matter of fact 'statement of fact') if it is from that other thread.



is that meant to be for me?


----------



## salem (Oct 4, 2013)

editor said:


> Looking at the Facebook page, there seems to be quite a few long term Brixtonites attending this event...


Looking at the Facebook page, the 'going' list is made up of almost entirely of white faces.

Edit to add - not to say they can't be long term _Brixtonites_ of course - just that it doesn't look totally representative of the general Brixton population. Instead it looks like the usual bunch of incomers who want to pull the drawbridge up after them.


----------



## editor (Oct 4, 2013)

salem said:


> Looking at the Facebook page, the 'going' list is made up of almost entirely of white faces.
> 
> Edit to add - not to say they can't be long term _Brixtonites_ of course - just that it doesn't look totally representative of the general Brixton population. Instead it looks like the usual bunch of incomers who want to pull the drawbridge up after them.


I'm not really sure what your point is here or why you're bringing up race. 

I was just commenting that I recognise quite a few of the people who are going, and many of them have lived here for a long time. I don't think anyone thinks or expects that they're going to be "totally representative of the general Brixton population," whatever that means.


----------



## leanderman (Oct 4, 2013)

editor said:


> I'm not really sure what your point is here or why you're bringing up race.
> 
> I was just commenting that I recognise quite a few of the people who are going, and many of them have lived here for a long time. I don't think anyone thinks or expects that they're going to be "totally representative of the general Brixton population," whatever that means.



Have they lived here long enough to remember the champagne bars of 1920s Brixton?


----------



## editor (Oct 4, 2013)

leanderman said:


> Have they lived here long enough to remember the champagne bars of 1920s Brixton?


What champagne bars of 1920s Brixton?


----------



## Cheesypoof (Oct 4, 2013)

leanderman said:


> Have they lived here long enough to remember the champagne bars of 1920s Brixton?


----------



## leanderman (Oct 4, 2013)

editor said:


> What champagne bars of 1920s Brixton?



Imagining they may have had some in Brixton's first phase of gentrification.


----------



## editor (Oct 4, 2013)

leanderman said:


> Imagining they may have had some in Brixton's first phase of gentrification.


I think you might be imagining wrong.

*cue frantic Googling by some indviduals


----------



## leanderman (Oct 4, 2013)

editor said:


> What champagne bars of 1920s Brixton?



Maybe not. As luck would have it, I have this picture of a recently-auctioned champagne cup (or coupe) from the Brixton Astoria. Dated 1929


----------



## editor (Oct 4, 2013)

leanderman said:


> Maybe not. As luck would have it, I have this picture of a recently-auctioned champagne cup from the Brixton Astoria. Dated 1929


The Brixton Astoria may have served champagne but that does not make it a champagne bar.

Not unless you think the Albert is a champagne bar too, of course.


----------



## Rushy (Oct 4, 2013)

leanderman said:


> Maybe not. As luck would have it, I have this picture of a recently-auctioned champagne cup (or coupe) from the Brixton Astoria. Dated 1929


That's an awesome find. I'd love one of those to add to my ridiculous collection of Brixton related ebay purchases.


----------



## leanderman (Oct 4, 2013)

editor said:


> The Brixton Astoria may have served champagne but that does not make it a champagne bar.
> 
> Not unless you think the Albert is a champagne bar too, of course.



I rest my case. It looks like they took their champagne pretty seriously in 20s Brixton.


----------



## leanderman (Oct 4, 2013)

Rushy said:


> That's an awesome find. I'd love one of those to add to my ridiculous collection of Brixton related ebay purchases.



Belongs to a mate. Not sure what he paid for it. No huge amount.


----------



## editor (Oct 4, 2013)

leanderman said:


> I rest my case. It looks like they took their champagne pretty seriously in 20s Brixton.


That's because very few got to drink the stuff back then!


----------



## editor (Oct 4, 2013)

Rushy said:


> That's an awesome find. I'd love one of those to add to my ridiculous collection of Brixton related ebay purchases.


Have you bought one of those bus route displays that include Brixton? I've come close to buying one several times.


----------



## Rushy (Oct 4, 2013)

editor said:


> Have you bought one of those bus route displays that include Brixton? I've come close to buying one several times.



The old Routemaster ones are silly money so I settled for a more modern version. It's huge. And has Brixton on it about 10 times.


----------



## Rushy (Oct 4, 2013)

leanderman said:


> Belongs to a mate. Not sure what he paid for it. No huge amount.


Search saved.


----------



## Manter (Oct 4, 2013)

Rushy said:


> The old Routemaster ones are silly money so I settled for a more modern version. It's huge. And has Brixton on it about 10 times.


I got a routemaster one for about £40 on ebay...  the trick, according to a mate (and it seems to work) is to look for misspelled or inaccurate listings.  Apparently ebay have changed their process now to avoid so many spelling errors (it autocompletes and asks you if you really mean x) which is a shame as its where I found all my best stuff.


----------



## Rushy (Oct 4, 2013)

Manter said:


> I got a routemaster one for about £40 on ebay...  the trick, according to a mate (and it seems to work) is to look for misspelled or inaccurate listings.  Apparently ebay have changed their process now to avoid so many spelling errors (it autocompletes and asks you if you really mean x) which is a shame as its where I found all my best stuff.


Root master?


----------



## Manter (Oct 4, 2013)

Rushy said:


> Root master?


This seller didn't get as far as that- bus	Blind Londin  iirc. You have to trawl through a lot of crap, but you find treasure!


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 4, 2013)

T & P said:


> I'm all for a bit of a laugh and a street party, but seriously does anyone (or rather, _should _anyone) give a flying fuck if a new business in a market already full of joints offering food and drink is going to be selling champagne? I mean... _really_???
> 
> I'm infinitely more bothered by the myriad of chain corporations selling mobile phones, clothes and groceries, the loan shark shops and the appalling junk food outlets, whether independent or franchises that comprise the overwhelming majority of shops in Brixton than I'm ever going to be by a small business offering a drink that happens to be associated with rich folk. Good fucking luck to them as far as I'm concerned.
> 
> *awaits the storm*



I bumped into Hatboy a while back. It was him that was main person who spent a lot of time and energy getting the covered market listed. 

He has left Brixton now. It upsets him that Brixton Village has ended up the way it has. 

It was not for this that he put in all that work to get it listed.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Oct 4, 2013)

trouble is, we should all know better. if working class people make anything nice it gets taken by the middle and upper classes.  the only way we can keep what we got is by making it too shit, ugly, or dull for the middle and upper classes to want it.  and that's cutting off your nose etc.   poor hatboy, i feel for him.  he worked hard for brixton's people when he was able to and had all his work taken by capitalists.

sometimes working class community organisation is for mugs.  you're just giving your labour away so that rich fucks can profit.


----------



## gaijingirl (Oct 4, 2013)

Gramsci said:


> I bumped into Hatboy a while back. It was him that was main person who spent a lot of time and energy getting the covered market listed.
> 
> He has left Brixton now. It upsets him that Brixton Village has ended up the way it has.
> 
> It was not for this that he put in all that work to get it listed.



that's rather sad tbh...


----------



## oryx (Oct 5, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> trouble is, we should all know better. if working class people make anything nice it gets taken by the middle and upper classes.  the only way we can keep what we got is by making it too shit, ugly, or dull for the middle and upper classes to want it.  and that's cutting off your nose etc.   poor hatboy, i feel for him.  he worked hard for brixton's people when he was able to and had all his work taken by capitalists.
> 
> sometimes working class community organisation is for mugs.  you're just giving your labour away so that rich fucks can profit.


 
I know what you mean. Even 'community spirit' is being repackaged by the middle class and sold back to ordinary people.


----------



## rutabowa (Oct 5, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> trouble is, we should all know better. if working class people make anything nice it gets taken by the middle and upper classes.  the only way we can keep what we got is by making it too shit, ugly, or dull for the middle and upper classes to want it.  and that's cutting off your nose etc.   poor hatboy, i feel for him.  he worked hard for brixton's people when he was able to and had all his work taken by capitalists.
> 
> sometimes working class community organisation is for mugs.  you're just giving your labour away so that rich fucks can profit.


This, maybe, is a good reason why unfocussed and ill-thought-out chaotic rage like this street party is a good response


----------



## salem (Oct 5, 2013)

editor said:


> I'm not really sure what your point is here or why you're bringing up race.
> 
> I was just commenting that I recognise quite a few of the people who are going, and many of them have lived here for a long time. I don't think anyone thinks or expects that they're going to be "totally representative of the general Brixton population," whatever that means.



You posted a comment about the 'going' list. I had a look out of curiosity and thought the sea of white faces was noteworthy in an area that's population is almost half non-white. It's certainly more then a statistical anomaly anyway.


----------



## editor (Oct 5, 2013)

salem said:


> You posted a comment about the 'going' list. I had a look out of curiosity and thought the sea of white faces was noteworthy in an area that's population is almost half non-white. It's certainly more then a statistical anomaly anyway.


It's not half black either, not that this isn't one of the stupidest arguments ever.


----------



## salem (Oct 5, 2013)

editor said:


> It's not half black either, not that this isn't one of the stupidest arguments ever.


Those stats on the Lambeth Council website put it at 27.5k non-white (*includes all ethnic groups other than White British, White Irish and Other White) vs 37k white or about 43% black. I think it's fair to call 43% 'almost half'.

Anyway, just an observation.


----------



## editor (Oct 6, 2013)

Does anyone know when this place is actually opening? Their Twitter feed says Oct 15th, but some people think it's next Tues/Weds.


----------



## DietCokeGirl (Oct 6, 2013)

My informants tell me they are trying to push for Tuesday.


----------



## DietCokeGirl (Oct 6, 2013)

Also, when I asked if they'd be having a launch night/opening party with treats for traders, I got a bemused 'No'. So sod them.


----------



## han (Oct 6, 2013)

It'd be great if people would spend this much mental energy on working out how to prevent the corporate chains from destroying our high streets.....


----------



## footballerslegs (Oct 6, 2013)

T & P said:


> I'm infinitely more bothered by the myriad of chain corporations selling mobile phones, clothes and groceries, the loan shark shops and the appalling junk food outlets, whether independent or franchises that comprise the overwhelming majority of shops in Brixton than I'm ever going to be by a small business offering a drink that happens to be associated with rich folk. Good fucking luck to them as far as I'm concerned.


 
Not to mention the bookies opening on every other corner. Fucking bookies. Let's have a protest the next time a WIlliam Hill opens up.


----------



## Dexter Deadwood (Oct 6, 2013)

footballerslegs said:


> Not to mention the bookies opening on every other corner. Fucking bookies. Let's have a protest the next time a WIlliam Hill opens up.



The drug dealers that ply their wares outside every bookmakers ought to be brought to the attention of the corporate spivs that deny they host a secondary parasitic behaviour.


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## editor (Oct 7, 2013)

han said:


> It'd be great if people would spend this much mental energy on working out how to prevent the corporate chains from destroying our high streets.....


People have certainly tried in the past, but I think this is a slightly different thing, and I'm not going to knock them for at least offering some kind of statement - no matter how clumsy - about what's happening to Granville Arcade.

The continuing process of pricing out of a large chunk of the community depresses the fuck out of me.


----------



## editor (Oct 7, 2013)

Here's how it looks now, complete with 'edgy' typeface. It would seem that a Tuesday opening is on the cards, although I suspect they may just cancel it for a day to avoid the protest.


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## Dexter Deadwood (Oct 7, 2013)

We live here we can protest anytime!


----------



## leanderman (Oct 7, 2013)

editor said:


> The continuing process of pricing out of a large chunk of the community depresses the fuck out of me.



The large chunk being those who are tenants of greedy private landlords?


----------



## editor (Oct 7, 2013)

leanderman said:


> The large chunk being those who are tenants of greedy private landlords?


It's all shit.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 7, 2013)

Dexter Deadwood said:


> We live here we can protest anytime!



Not on a Sunday though yeah? I like relaxing on a Sunday.


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## leanderman (Oct 7, 2013)

editor said:


> It's all shit.



Sure. 

Those in social housing should not be hit by excessive rent rises though (unless victims of the bedroom tax). 

A third of this street is L&Q - and I don't know of anyone being forced out. I may be wrong. 

The people who have left this road have left either for bigger homes farther out or schooling or because private rents are too high.


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## han (Oct 7, 2013)

editor said:
			
		

> The continuing process of pricing out of a large chunk of the community depresses the fuck out of me.



I'm with you on that.


----------



## han (Oct 7, 2013)

leanderman said:
			
		

> Those in social housing should not be hit by excessive rent rises though



This is true. The difficulty is for low waged people renting from private landlords. Those in social housing should be relatively safe from all this.


----------



## editor (Oct 7, 2013)

leanderman said:


> Sure.
> 
> Those in social housing should not be hit by excessive rent rises though (unless victims of the bedroom tax).
> 
> ...


Gentrification and upmarket offerings like jolly champagne bars make the place more attractive to the better off, which in turn leads to vastly inflated rent prises. I know many people on modest wages who have had to leave Brixton because they can no longer afford the rent rises foisted on them by private landlords.

Barely any of my friends own properties so they're totally at the mercy of the aforementioned rent-risin' landlords.


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## leanderman (Oct 7, 2013)

editor said:


> Gentrification and upmarket offerings like jolly champagne bars make the place more attractive to the better off, which in turn leads to vastly inflated rent prises. I know many people on modest wages who have had to leave Brixton because they can no longer afford the rent rises foisted on them by private landlords.
> 
> Barely any of my friends own properties so they're totally at the mercy of the aforementioned rent-risin' landlords.



Agreed.


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## Ms T (Oct 7, 2013)

Someone told me the other day that people renting in Herne Hill were facing rent rises of 100%.


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## Badgers (Oct 7, 2013)

Ms T said:


> Someone told me the other day that people renting in Herne Hill were facing rent rises of 100%.



Ouch


----------



## Ms T (Oct 7, 2013)

I can't believe that can be true tbh.  How can you double someone's rent?


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## editor (Oct 7, 2013)

Ms T said:


> I can't believe that can be true tbh.  How can you double someone's rent?


Free market economics, innit.
Rapidly gentrifying area = huge demand for housing from the better off.
Bastard greedy landlord free to exploit the market thanks to the shameful lack of social housing = mahoosive rent rises.


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## leanderman (Oct 7, 2013)

Ms T said:


> I can't believe that can be true tbh.  How can you double someone's rent?



Because they want to go skiing at Christmas, put their kids through Dulwich college and buy that cottage in Cornwall.


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## cesare (Oct 7, 2013)

Are people appealing these rent increases to the rent assessment committee? https://www.gov.uk/housing-tribunals/rent-assessment-committee-disputes-about-rent


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## editor (Oct 7, 2013)

So, the Yuppies Out lot have changed the date yet again. It is now 5pm, Friday 11th October.


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## oryx (Oct 7, 2013)

cesare said:


> Are people appealing these rent increases to the rent assessment committee? https://www.gov.uk/housing-tribunals/rent-assessment-committee-disputes-about-rent


 
I used to be very aware of the rent assessment committee when I was a (private) fair rent tenant, but the word was always that they could put it up as well as down if you appealed.

One year I got hit by 46% but admittedly it was starting from a low base, so I didn't appeal.


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## cesare (Oct 7, 2013)

oryx said:


> I used to be very aware of the rent assessment committee when I was a (private) fair rent tenant, but the word was always that they could put it up as well as down if you appealed.
> 
> One year I got hit by 46% but admittedly it was starting from a low base, so I didn't appeal.


Yes, I think they can put it up as well as down. But unless (as In your example) the rents are starting from a very low base I imagine that it might be worth challenging some of these massive increases, particularly if lots of people all do it at once.


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## oryx (Oct 7, 2013)

cesare said:


> Yes, I think they can put it up as well as down. But unless (as In your example) the rents are starting from a very low base I imagine that it might be worth challenging some of these massive increases, particularly if lots of people all do it at once.


 
If they're not from a low base then yes, they should definitely be challenging them - funny that the rent assessment committee isn't well-publicised, isn't it!


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## cesare (Oct 7, 2013)

oryx said:


> If they're not from a low base then yes, they should definitely be challenging them - funny that the rent assessment committee isn't well-publicised, isn't it!


Yep I only know of it because there's an out of date bit of paper that comes with my service charges every six months.


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## Gramsci (Oct 8, 2013)

leanderman said:


> Sure.
> 
> Those in social housing should not be hit by excessive rent rises though (unless victims of the bedroom tax).
> 
> A third of this street is L&Q - and I don't know of anyone being forced out. I may be wrong.



That depends. Housing Associations are being pressurized to rent property under the new "affordable" regimes of up to 80% of market rent if property is relet. Also if tenant leaves the new tenant may be on time limited tenancy.

HAs are taking quite different approach to the changes in social housing. Some are opting to no further expansion in order to keep there existing housing and tenants on social rents and more long term tenancies. 

The government "affordable homes programme" is only for those HAs which will set rents under the new "affordable" regime. The GLA may step in to get more housing at near social rents. But situation is bleak for future of social housing.

LSE report shows the whilst London has weathered the economic crisis better than the rest of the country the least well off have suffered the worst.



> It remains a problem that London's economic success does not seem to translate into lower poverty or reduced inequality. The recession, despite its origins in the financial sector, seems to have worsened economic outcomes for Londoners who were already worst off, while better off groups have been less affected. As London returns to growth, questions must surely be asked about how this situation can be ameliorated.


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## gabi (Oct 9, 2013)

Terrible typeface aside, whats the big deal about this particular place? Why not Seven? or the little wine bar opposite that? Or Rosie's? Or any of those places in the 'new' market?


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## happyshopper (Oct 9, 2013)

gabi said:


> Terrible typeface aside, whats the big deal about this particular place? Why not Seven? or the little wine bar opposite that? Or Rosie's? Or any of those places in the 'new' market?



It's the word "champagne". It's only a type of sparkling wine, but with some people it touches a nerve.


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## butchersapron (Oct 9, 2013)

It's not 'only' a type of sparkling wine, it's also a signifier of a whole series of oppressive and unequal social relations, slap bang in the middle of some of those on the worst end of those inequalities.


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## Winot (Oct 9, 2013)

(((champagne)))


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## gabi (Oct 9, 2013)

Seems a bit juvenile. 

Not a fan of champagne, but not sure why such joints as 'Honest' Burgers (at a tenner a go) have not been singled out earlier.


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## rutabowa (Oct 9, 2013)

gabi said:


> Seems a bit juvenile.
> 
> Not a fan of champagne, but not sure why such joints as 'Honest' Burgers (at a tenner a go) have not been singled out earlier.


It is just symbolic, i guess. yes it is pretty arbitrary to single out this one place.... but, is that such a bad thing?


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## Rushy (Oct 9, 2013)

rutabowa said:


> It is just symbolic, i guess. yes it is pretty arbitrary to single out this one place.... but, is that such a bad thing?


It's no better or worse than singling out any one particular recipient of benefits to make a point about welfare.


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## leanderman (Oct 9, 2013)

gabi said:


> Seems a bit juvenile.
> 
> Not a fan of champagne, but not sure why such joints as 'Honest' Burgers (at a tenner a go) have not been singled out earlier.



Good point

Although I think the Honest burger and chips is £7.95 (7.20 in Brixton pounds).

And you could pay £5 for a high street burger much lower in quality and far less filling.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 9, 2013)

Rushy said:


> It's no better or worse than singling out any one particular recipient of benefits to make a point about welfare.


Wow.


----------



## rutabowa (Oct 9, 2013)

Rushy said:


> It's no better or worse than singling out any one particular recipient of benefits to make a point about welfare.


If you thought that the welfare system was inherently bad i suppose you might do that, you would have to be some kind of vile sociopath to think that though.


----------



## killer b (Oct 9, 2013)

Rushy said:


> It's no better or worse than singling out any one particular recipient of benefits to make a point about welfare.


 Or nothing like that at all.


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## ffsear (Oct 9, 2013)

Were there many protests when pay day loan shops started to open up in Brixton?	Or is this simply about targeting the middle class rather then protecting the community and character of Brixton?


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## butchersapron (Oct 9, 2013)

Wow.

I must come in this forum more often.


----------



## gabi (Oct 9, 2013)

ffsear said:


> Where there many protests when pay day loan shops started to open up in Brixton?	Or is this simply about targeting the middle class rather then protecting the community and character of Brixton?



Good point. I'd say that massive payday loan shop near the academy charging 3,000% APR to desperate people would make a slightly more appropriate target than a place selling bubbly and cheese.


----------



## editor (Oct 9, 2013)

gabi said:


> Good point. I'd say that massive payday loan shop near the academy charging 3,000% APR to desperate people would make a slightly more appropriate target than a place selling bubbly and cheese.


Like you'd get off your arse to go to either.


----------



## spanglechick (Oct 9, 2013)

It is possible to protest about both.   

Champagne and fromage is neatly symbolic.   It may not be, per se, particularly worse than any of the other "mid-range luxury" establishments colonising the village, but there is a symbolism to champagne as the ultimate libation of the rich, which makes the inequality and contrast impossible to ignore for lots of people.   Then the word "fromage" seems a bit pretentious, because it's French and we've a perfectly good English word for it (and easily as good british cheeses, for that matter)...  The pretentiousness invites attention and then contempt, and galvanises people to protest.  

I like cheese and fizzy wine, but I totally get why these guys are fair target.


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## rutabowa (Oct 9, 2013)

i guess there are infinite potential, possible protests that could be done... and maybe they are happening, in infinite parallel universes, and maybe they are loads better, who knows... but this one is actually happening, right here in our reality!!


----------



## editor (Oct 9, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> It is possible to protest about both.
> 
> Champagne and fromage is neatly symbolic.   It may not be, per se, particularly worse than any of the other "mid-range luxury" establishments colonising the village, but there is a symbolism to champagne as the ultimate libation of the rich, which makes the inequality and contrast impossible to ignore for lots of people.   Then the word "fromage" seems a bit pretentious, because it's French and we've a perfectly good English word for it (and easily as good british cheeses, for that matter)...  The pretentiousness invites attention and then contempt, and galvanises people to protest.
> 
> I like cheese and fizzy wine, but I totally get why these guys are fair target.


Spot on.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 9, 2013)

Rushy said:


> It's no better or worse than singling out any one particular recipient of benefits to make a point about welfare.





ffsear said:


> Were there many protests when pay day loan shops started to open up in Brixton?	Or is this simply about targeting the middle class rather then protecting the community and character of Brixton?



There's a social war going on and this is how you two respond? What makes people like you?


----------



## gabi (Oct 9, 2013)

editor said:


> Like you'd get off your arse to go to either.



Er, fuck off. If there was a protest mounted against a payday loan company in brixton, and I was in Brixton, I would definitely attend. 

A protest mounted by some shit band against some shit champers joint in a shit market, er, no.


----------



## editor (Oct 9, 2013)

gabi said:


> Er, fuck off. If there was a protest mounted against a payday loan company in brixton, and I was in Brixton, I would definitely attend.
> 
> A protest mounted by some shit band against some shit champers joint in a shit market, er, no.


Instead of belittling an _actual protest_ by damning them with their supposed inaction over an issue you claim to be passionate about, why don't you get off your arse and organise your own protest?


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## gabi (Oct 9, 2013)

I'm not in brixton anymore editor. And even if I was I'd choose my target slightly more appropriately.

BTW, stop with the 'getting off your arse' shit please, thanks


----------



## editor (Oct 9, 2013)

gabi said:


> I'm not in brixton anymore editor. And even if I was I'd choose my target slightly more appropriately.


So you're complaining about the lack of protests about something that you couldn't be bothered to organise or get involved with yourself when you were here, while slagging off a protest that someone else _can_ be bothered to put on?


----------



## Rushy (Oct 9, 2013)

rutabowa said:


> If you thought that the welfare system was inherently bad i suppose you might do that, you would have to be some kind of vile sociopath to think that though.





killer b said:


> Or nothing like that at all.





butchersapron said:


> There's a social war going on and this is how you two respond? What makes people like you?



Singling out one individual (or pair of individuals) as the focus of a mass aggressive crowd protest in order to make a general socio political statement is lazy and cowardly. Yes - I can see why the word champagne makes them an easy target - but it is lazy and cowardly. Pretending it is ok because it's a business rather than a couple of individuals running a tiny shop selling wine and cheese is a cop out. I'm sure the Yuppies Out lot are charming individuals in their own rights but a mass (over 400 of 1000+ FB invitees going or maybe going)  bullying a pair of individuals running a small shop in the name of "social war" is totally misguided. 

If they are gong to be so judgemental about a small company selling non-mass produced goods they should sort out their own capitalist credentials.

For instance, by not holding up as beacons of social struggle the FMCG products of a company who describe themselves as "innovative labour management specialists", invest in what they call "style bars" and have CEO quotes on their webpage claiming 





> _"We've been working with the Lurton family on a new collection from Bordeaux. Wines made in the La Clape region of Southern France by the ex-Technical Director of Château Lafite Rothschild and a range of iconic Rioja demonstrate our commitment to source top-quality wines."_


 Oh lah-di-bloody-dah.

Or, for instance, by not cross promoting the album of a band who choose to distribute their music through arch tax dodgers and UK Uncut target Amazon.


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## butchersapron (Oct 9, 2013)

I don't know you, i don't know if you're named rushy because you look like a welsh goal-scoring machine or if you're addicted to poppers. I do know though that you haven't even attempted to make any substantive argument as to why singling out (as you see it) one business is cowardly. I'll make a case as to why it isn't. Because that business is emblematic of a wider set of damaging social relations and putting pressure on them can a) bring these wider social relations to light b) make others thinking of exploiting them in this area think twice. And because to effectively challenge a general system you need to challenge specific instances - _there is no other way to do it. _So you keep your eyes closed to what's going on around you and why. Others won't.


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## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Oct 9, 2013)

Champagne and Fromage is a totally different order of magnitude in terms of wealth to Honest Burger. Obviously Honest Burger attracts generally middle class customers but purely as far as the money goes if you can afford to go to Khans you could afford the occasional £8 burger + chips. Putting away champagne at £15 a glass on a casual night out (Brixton Village isn't really a special occasion venue for people going there I wouldn't think) needs a whole lot more money. While there are plenty of similarities it's not the same IMO.


----------



## editor (Oct 9, 2013)

Rushy said:


> Singling out one individual (or pair of individuals) as the focus of a mass aggressive crowd protest in order to make a general socio political statement is lazy and cowardly. Yes - I can see why the word champagne makes them an easy target - but it is lazy and cowardly. Pretending it is ok because it's a business rather than a couple of individuals running a tiny shop selling wine and cheese is a cop out.


Would that be the same teensy 'tiny' business that already owns a 515sq Fromagerie & Shop in upmarket Covent Garden, sells bottles at up to £110 a pop, offers afternoon tea for £30 (service charge not included) and supplies some of London’s most well-known restaurants like Bubbledogs, Massimo and L’atelier des Chefs? [--]

Oh, and "mass aggressive crowd protest"?


----------



## Rushy (Oct 9, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> I don't know you, i don't know if you're named rushy because you look like a welsh goal-scoring machine or if you're addicted to poppers.



To quote you 





> Wow.


Genius. I'm so hurt.



> I do know though that you haven't even attempted to make any substantive argument as to why singling out (as you see it) one business is cowardly. I'll make a case as to why it isn't. Because that business is emblematic of a wider set of damaging social relations and putting pressure on them can a) bring these wider social relations to light b) make others thinking of exploiting them in this area think twice. And because to effectively challenge a general system you need to challenge specific instances - _*there is no other way to do it.*_



Bothering to find alternative products to hold up as beacons rather than a multi national's high margin FMCG products or boycotting rather than partnering with Amazon would be start. Not as fun I suppose.



> So you keep your eyes closed to what's going on around you and why. Others won't.


Uh huh.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 9, 2013)

That's quite a mess you made there.


----------



## Rushy (Oct 9, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> That's quite a mess you made there.



Luckily, in the time it took you post those seven stretching words, I managed to sort the formatting.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 9, 2013)

I'm not sure how it could be a better target unless it also sold caviar, cigars and top hats.


----------



## Rushy (Oct 9, 2013)

editor said:


> Would that be the same teensy 'tiny' business that already owns a 515sq Fromagerie & Shop in upmarket Covent Garden, sells bottles at up to £110 a pop, offers afternoon tea for £30 (service charge not included) and supplies some of London’s most well-known restaurants like Bubbledogs, Massimo and L’atelier des Chefs? [--]
> 
> Oh, and "mass aggressive crowd protest"?


Sorry Ed - No offence but I've got you on "do not engage" in case you start sobbing about being persecuted again. Pretty sure you were doing the same with me? I'm sticking to it anyway.


----------



## editor (Oct 9, 2013)

Rushy said:


> Sorry Ed - No offence but I've got you on "do not engage" in case you start sobbing about being persecuted again. Pretty sure you were doing the same with me? I'm sticking to it anyway.


Sure, no problem. I'll just sit back and watch Butchersapron continue to hand you your arse on a plate.


----------



## Rushy (Oct 9, 2013)

editor said:


> Sure, no problem. I'll just sit back and watch Butchersapron continue to hand you your arse on a plate.


Attaboy.


----------



## editor (Oct 9, 2013)

Rushy said:


> Attaboy.


Is this an example of you not engaging then? At least stick to your promises.


----------



## Crispy (Oct 9, 2013)

No, _you _shut up. No, _you _shut up. No, _you _shut up.


----------



## spanglechick (Oct 9, 2013)

I am curious if anyone thinks this protest will actually do anything detrimental to C&F.  I can't see it, myself.  Might even bring publicity.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 9, 2013)

It might...might...help to link up people who want to organise around more long term wider issues around gentrification and enclosures - and given the issues aren't going away, that is at least potentially worthwhile. And they could not be given a more perfect target to hitch that onto than this monstrosity.


----------



## Winot (Oct 9, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> Champagne and fromage is neatly symbolic.   It may not be, per se, particularly worse than any of the other "mid-range luxury" establishments colonising the village, but there is a symbolism to champagne as the ultimate libation of the rich, which makes the inequality and contrast impossible to ignore for lots of people.   Then the word "fromage" seems a bit pretentious, because it's French and we've a perfectly good English word for it (and easily as good british cheeses, for that matter)...  The pretentiousness invites attention and then contempt, and galvanises people to protest.


 
This pretty much nails it, although personally I'd rather the protest was aimed at the cause rather than the symptom of inequality.

Anyway, I'd like to ask a more general question to those in favour of targeting C+F: Are you in favour of areas of London being mixed socially/economically (as opposed to being separated into rich/poor ghettos); and if you are, to what extent are you prepared to put up with the trappings that come with other socioeconomic groups (be they betting shops or wine bars)?


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 9, 2013)

Oh jesus, did you really just say that?


----------



## Dan U (Oct 9, 2013)

I'm gonna open up my new concept bar, Buckfast and Dairylea. Show these kids how it's really done.


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## boohoo (Oct 9, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> I am curious if anyone thinks this protest will actually do anything detrimental to C&F.  I can't see it, myself.  Might even bring publicity.


Lots of publicity - in fact already has - about 1000+ targeted to visit on facebook Yuppies Out group and 16,000 view on this thread. WOW! great publicity.


----------



## TruXta (Oct 9, 2013)

boohoo said:


> Lots of publicity - in fact already has - about 1000+ targeted to visit on facebook Yuppies Out group and 16,000 view on this thread. WOW! great publicity.


Contrary to popular opinion, not all PR is good PR.


----------



## boohoo (Oct 9, 2013)

TruXta said:


> Contrary to popular opinion, not all PR is good PR.



I don't know. The fact is I know the name of a place I would not have noticed or cared about. Branding , innit!


----------



## TruXta (Oct 9, 2013)

boohoo said:


> I don't know. The fact is I know the name of a place I would not have noticed or cared about. Branding , innit!


Sure, but do you have a positive or negative association with the brand just now? I've been made aware of Miley Cyrus as well over the last couple of years, but I've yet to go out and spend money on products associated with her brand.


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## T & P (Oct 9, 2013)

Dan U said:


> I'm gonna open up my new concept bar, Buckfast and Dairylea. Show these kids how it's really done.


Dresscode: strictly shell suits and Burberry caps, presumably?


----------



## editor (Oct 9, 2013)

boohoo said:


> Lots of publicity - in fact already has - about 1000+ targeted to visit on facebook Yuppies Out group and 16,000 view on this thread. WOW! great publicity.


Yes. The event has done a great job of pointing out that not all of Brixton welcomes this kind of venture, and anyone reading this thread may get an understanding of the social/economic impact of such upmarket bars on the local community.


----------



## Dan U (Oct 9, 2013)

T & P said:


> Dresscode: strictly shell suits and Burberry caps, presumably?



No dress code at all. All you need is a love of Buckfast and processed cheese. I certainly love the latter.


----------



## boohoo (Oct 9, 2013)

TruXta said:


> Sure, but do you have a positive or negative association with the brand just now? I've been made aware of Miley Cyrus as well over the last couple of years, but I've yet to go out and spend money on products associated with her brand.



I don't have a negative or positive association with the brand - it's just another infiltration from businesses aimed at people with spare cash. I'm not keen on Yuppies Out.


----------



## Onket (Oct 9, 2013)

.


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## gabi (Oct 9, 2013)

editor said:


> Yes. The event has done a great job of pointing out that not all of Brixton welcomes this kind of venture, and anyone reading this thread may get an understanding of the social/economic impact of such upmarket bars on the local community.



You have loudly and 'passionately' (to use your own words) promoted upmarket bars in brixton for donkeys. Hell you even designed their marketing materials. Get off that high horse editor. And please stop using aggressive language.


----------



## Dexter Deadwood (Oct 9, 2013)

If these champagne entrepreneurs have any sense they would offer to match the amount donated to the soup kitchen from the launch sales of Brixton Beer and continue to do so for each Brixton Beer run.


----------



## leanderman (Oct 9, 2013)

editor said:


> Yes. The event has done a great job of pointing out that not all of Brixton welcomes this kind of venture, and anyone reading this thread may get an understanding of the social/economic impact of such upmarket bars on the local community.



Yes. Not all of Brixton does like it.

But upmarket bars are, at least in part, a symptom of change, a result of change, rather than being just a cause of change. 

The big picture is that London housing is in crisis, displacing people (yuppies if you will) from richer areas to hitherto less rich ones. 

This drives gentrification. 

And gentrification is relative. If Brixton is going upmarket, then East Dulwich, Balham and Clapham have gone up, upmarket. 

It was an unlikely hope that Brixton would stay still while other places are changing so much. 

In fact, the surprise is that all this did not happen sooner.


----------



## editor (Oct 9, 2013)

gabi said:


> You have loudly and 'passionately' (to use your own words) promoted upmarket bars in brixton for donkeys. Hell you even designed their marketing materials.


I've really no idea what you're on about, I'm afraid. What the hell is an upmarket bar for donkeys and what marketing materials have I designed for them?


----------



## Rushy (Oct 9, 2013)

Is this another of those crowd funding projects?


----------



## fogbat (Oct 9, 2013)

Dan U said:


> I'm gonna open up my new concept bar, Buckfast and Dairylea. Show these kids how it's really done.



"Bucky + La Vache Qui Rit"


----------



## Crispy (Oct 9, 2013)

fogbat said:


> "Bucky + La Vache Qui Rit"


Bucké


----------



## Onket (Oct 9, 2013)

editor said:


> I've really no idea what you're on about, I'm afraid. What the hell is an upmarket bar for donkeys and what marketing materials have I designed for them?


 
 Classic.


----------



## T & P (Oct 9, 2013)

Is it too late to set up some deckchairs and offer fromage-covered popcorn? It'll be cheaper than a glass of fizzy at that fancy new place in the Village...


----------



## boohoo (Oct 9, 2013)

And now for some pop music to lighten the mood....


----------



## aussw9 (Oct 9, 2013)

boohoo said:


> And now for some pop music to lighten the mood....



Ahh my eyes and ears... That is more repulsive than Champ and Fromage


----------



## Manter (Oct 9, 2013)

boohoo said:


> And now for some pop music to lighten the mood....



the dance move for champagne showers made me laugh out loud...


----------



## Badgers (Oct 9, 2013)

I am going there with Onket and Dan U for lunch so fuck you all. We will be like three dandy's


----------



## han (Oct 9, 2013)

editor said:


> I've really no idea what you're on about, I'm afraid. What the hell is an upmarket bar for donkeys and what marketing materials have I designed for them?



Oh god, I quite literally laughed out loud then. In fact I was practically braying.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 9, 2013)

han said:


> Oh god, I quite literally laughed out loud then. In fact I was practically braying.


It's no laughing matter  they come to an area with their ironic straw hats, and soon you find carrots are £10 a kilo


----------



## gaijingirl (Oct 9, 2013)

Dexter Deadwood said:


> If these champagne entrepreneurs have any sense they would offer to match the amount donated to the soup kitchen from the launch sales of Brixton Beer and continue to do so for each Brixton Beer run.



Well this is a great idea!  I hope that they are reading this thread and take this idea on board - or something similar.


----------



## Onket (Oct 9, 2013)

Badgers said:


> I am going there with Onket and Dan U for lunch so fuck you all. We will be like three dandy's



We'll be stopping off at the top hat shop en route.


----------



## Cpatain Rbubish (Oct 9, 2013)

This must be full of fail surely!?

I hope so, unless they have drive by's n'stuff


----------



## leanderman (Oct 10, 2013)

boohoo said:


> Lots of publicity - in fact already has - about 1000+ targeted to visit on facebook Yuppies Out group and 16,000 view on this thread. WOW! great publicity.



C+F may like the publicity, having just retweeted this attack on them:

_*Oliver Bothwell ‏@oliverbothwell*_
_*Totally disgusted that @BrixtonVillage is getting @Champ_Fromage. Totally out of character. Bring on the yuppies. Yuck.*_


----------



## editor (Oct 10, 2013)

Let's bbble!


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 10, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Wow.
> 
> I must come in this forum more often.



Please do Butchersapron. Good to see u posting on this thread.


----------



## classicdish (Oct 10, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> I am curious if anyone thinks this protest will actually do anything detrimental to C&F.  I can't see it, myself.  Might even bring publicity.


Did the protest against Foxtons achieve anything?


----------



## leanderman (Oct 10, 2013)

classicdish said:


> Did the protest against Foxtons achieve anything?



Probably nothing. 

But hopeless causes are the most admirable.


----------



## classicdish (Oct 10, 2013)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> ...Putting away champagne at £15 a glass on a casual night out (Brixton Village isn't really a special occasion venue for people going there I wouldn't think) needs a whole lot more money...


I think that the cheaper champagne at C&F is around £8 a glass (eg £50 per bottle = 6 glasses). How much do champagne cocktails cost at the Satay Bar or elsewhere in Brixton?


----------



## boohoo (Oct 10, 2013)

I'm not sure whether these protest just encourage the idea of Brixton as edgy and vibrant. If you are out down the Brixton on Friday and see some knees up with people waving placards and drinking beer and dancing to some random music, you can't help but think this is where the cool people who read vice and fight 'the man' hang out.


----------



## boohoo (Oct 10, 2013)

Badgers said:


> I am going there with Onket and Dan U for lunch so fuck you all. We will be like three dandy's



Make sure they don't bring the kids or you'll look like a bunch of infiltrating yummy daddies from the posher bits of sarf London!


----------



## Badgers (Oct 10, 2013)

boohoo said:
			
		

> Make sure they don't bring the kids or you'll look like a bunch of infiltrating yummy daddies from the posher bits of sarf London!



The kids will still be at the hunt by lunchtime. Getting blooded for the first time so a good time to celebrate with a glass of bubbly.


----------



## Onket (Oct 10, 2013)

Gramsci said:


> Please do Butchersapron. Good to see u posting on this thread.


----------



## Ted Striker (Oct 10, 2013)

So, when is the first meeting of the BDL?


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Oct 10, 2013)

classicdish said:


> I think that the cheaper champagne at C&F is around £8 a glass (eg £50 per bottle = 6 glasses). How much do champagne cocktails cost at the Satay Bar or elsewhere in Brixton?


 
I don't know as I've never been in the Satay bar. How many champagne cocktails do they sell compared to beers/regular wine?

A place that sells champagne by the bottle still looks like a hefty step up in terms of spending to me tbh. I don't think I've ever seen anyone buy a bottle of champagne in a pub or bar in my life. I do get the point and I agree with it to a degree.


----------



## RubyToogood (Oct 10, 2013)

classicdish said:


> I think that the cheaper champagne at C&F is around £8 a glass (eg £50 per bottle = 6 glasses). How much do champagne cocktails cost at the Satay Bar or elsewhere in Brixton?


The Satay Bar's sparkling cocktails are made with Prosecco (it says here).

E2A: the SW9 Bar does a kir royale/bucks fizz with actual champagne for £9.60, bellini £10.50. Although how is this a bellini? 





> Champagne & Archers Peach Schnapps, rhubarb or lychee


----------



## boohoo (Oct 10, 2013)

Just been looking at their menu at their other location. They must have done market research to believe that Brixton could cope with an eatery at this price point. Maybe their natural competitors are Cannon and Cannon. They do a mixed cheese board for £6.50 and a choice of teas at £1.85. Afternoon tea at £30 is the going rate though why you'd want to sit in freezing cold market in Brixton for this experience is beyond me!


----------



## Badgers (Oct 10, 2013)

*AFTERNOON TEA £29.95 
*


> 1 Flute Champagne Pertois Moriset Selection
> 1 Cup of tea
> 2 Small Macaroons
> 3 Biscuits Roses Fossier
> ...


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 10, 2013)

my weekly shopping budget spunked on one afternoon tea? why does this make my trigger finger itch?


----------



## cesare (Oct 10, 2013)

Badgers said:


> *AFTERNOON TEA £29.95 *


That's more expensive than The Wolseley when you factor in better champagne  Why would people stay on til Brixton instead of getting off at Green Park?


----------



## Badgers (Oct 10, 2013)

£15 cheaper than The Ritz though so pretty competitive. 
Not much between them mind...


----------



## boohoo (Oct 10, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> my weekly shopping budget spunked on one afternoon tea? why does this make my trigger finger itch?



An afternoon tea is meant to be a treat in a posh hotel. Not as a substitute for your weekly shop.


----------



## leanderman (Oct 10, 2013)

cesare said:


> That's more expensive than The Wolseley when you factor in better champagne  Why would people stay on til Brixton instead of getting off at Green Park?



It's bonkers. I suspect they 'll have a different offering here.

The thing about Brixton Village is that prices are reasonable. 

Honest is a fair bit cheaper than Byron for example. 

And BYO. Still available at Kaosarn and The Joint, which is ace.


----------



## purenarcotic (Oct 10, 2013)

cesare said:


> That's more expensive than The Wolseley when you factor in better champagne  Why would people stay on til Brixton instead of getting off at Green Park?



The Wolseley is considerably more pretty, too.






I know where I'd prefer to go if I'm going to fork out that much cash.


----------



## boohoo (Oct 10, 2013)

cesare said:


> That's more expensive than The Wolseley when you factor in better champagne  Why would people stay on til Brixton instead of getting off at Green Park?



Champagne tea is £33 - still would rather go there than Brixton!


----------



## cesare (Oct 10, 2013)

boohoo said:


> Champagne tea is £33 - still would rather go there than Brixton!


Aye, plus you get Pommery Brut Royale  as the champagne for that extra £4


----------



## boohoo (Oct 10, 2013)

leanderman said:


> It's bonkers. I suspect they 'll have a different offering here.
> 
> The thing about Brixton Village is that prices are reasonable.
> 
> ...



Quality of food in Brixton Village is better for the price paid. It really is!!!


----------



## leanderman (Oct 10, 2013)

boohoo said:


> Quality of food in Brixton Village is better for the price paid. It really is!!!



Yep. Byron 50pc more costly, and half as good. 

You tried The Joint?


----------



## cesare (Oct 10, 2013)

leanderman said:


> It's bonkers. I suspect they 'll have a different offering here.
> 
> The thing about Brixton Village is that prices are reasonable.
> 
> ...


I've had afternoon tea at The Wolseley, and it's very good value if you're spending that kind of money.

Edit: Did you mean C&F would have a different offering to the menu that Badgers posted?


----------



## boohoo (Oct 10, 2013)

leanderman said:


> Yep. Byron 50pc more costly, and half as good.
> 
> You tried The Joint?



 No - where's that?


----------



## leanderman (Oct 10, 2013)

cesare said:


> I've had afternoon tea at The Wolseley, and it's very good value if you're spending that kind of money.
> 
> Edit: Did you mean C&F would have a different offering to the menu that Badgers posted?



I would think they would change their offering from that for their Covent Garden site tourists. I would anyway.


----------



## leanderman (Oct 10, 2013)

boohoo said:


> No - where's that?



By Etta seafood and the toast place. Very good wings, pulled pork etc.


----------



## cesare (Oct 10, 2013)

leanderman said:


> I would think they would change their offering from that for their Covent Garden site tourists. I would anyway.


Yes, they don't seem to have anything about Brixton on their main site yet unless I've missed it. That's the CG menu as you say.


----------



## Winot (Oct 10, 2013)

I love how half the posters here are discussing Molotov cocktails and the other half are discussing champagne cocktails


----------



## boohoo (Oct 10, 2013)

Winot said:


> I love how half the posters here are discussing Molotov cocktails and the other half are discussing champagne cocktails



We are a sophisticated bunch!


----------



## Winot (Oct 10, 2013)

boohoo said:


> We are a sophisticated bunch!



Bellini Bolsheviks ;-)


----------



## Onket (Oct 10, 2013)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> I don't know as I've never been in the Satay bar. How many champagne cocktails do they sell compared to beers/regular wine?



When I used to go there quite a bit a few years back it appeared to be mostly cocktails, certainly in the happy hour period. I think they still advertise a happy hour on the board outside.

Not my kind if place, prefer pubs, but it was always busy. Quite blingy. I'd say champagne cocktails fit it perfectly.

Of course, it is also a decent enough restaurant.


----------



## Onket (Oct 10, 2013)

boohoo said:


> They do a mixed cheese board for £6.50 and a choice of teas at £1.85.



Those appear to be perfectly reasonable prices.


----------



## RubyToogood (Oct 10, 2013)

Onket said:


> Those appear to be perfectly reasonable prices.


You're not getting into the spirit of this at all.


----------



## Onket (Oct 10, 2013)

RubyToogood said:


> You're not getting into the spirit of this at all.


 
I might try the next bandwagon instead.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 10, 2013)

Went past The Champagne and Fromage place this morning and they were putting the bottles up on the shelves.

Had a look at C&F website last night and was reaching for the Molotov cocktail.

Party starts tomorrow at 5. May not be back in time.

Hope it all goes well.


----------



## Chilavert (Oct 10, 2013)

Gramsci said:


> Went past The Champagne and Fromage place this morning and they were putting the bottles up on the shelves.
> 
> Had a look at C&F website last night and was reaching for the Molotov cocktail.
> 
> ...


The opening party or the anti-opening party?

I don't want to end up at the wrong one....


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 10, 2013)

boohoo said:


> Just been looking at their menu at their other location. They must have done market research to believe that Brixton could cope with an eatery at this price point. Maybe their natural competitors are Cannon and Cannon. They do a mixed cheese board for £6.50 and a choice of teas at £1.85. Afternoon tea at £30 is the going rate though why you'd want to sit in freezing cold market in Brixton for this experience is beyond me!


 
I think they might be going for sales of bottles. A bit different from there other shop in the Covent Garden. If I had done market research I would see that the Village brings in a lot of people. A lot of footfall who might order or buy a bottle of Infidel Fizz. Its a base in South London for them. Punters can try out the rich variety of locally source organic bottled yuppy fizz before handing over there spare cash.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 10, 2013)

Chilavert said:


> The opening party or the anti-opening party?
> 
> I don't want to end up at the wrong one....


 
The anti opening party.

For all that some posters have complained this looks to me like a peaceful protest. FB page said it is taking place opposite the entrance to the Arcade on CHL.

I say good luck to "Yuppies Out" tomorrow.

Pics please someone as I may not make it.


----------



## Winot (Oct 10, 2013)

Gramsci said:


> I think they might be going for sales of bottles. A bit different from there other shop in the Covent Garden. If I had done market research I would see that the Village brings in a lot of people. A lot of footfall who might order or buy a bottle of Infidel Fizz. Its a base in South London for them. Punters can try out the rich variety of locally source organic bottled yuppy fizz before handing over there spare cash.


 
I have my doubts that they will sell many bottles, based unscientifically on the apparent lack of footfall/sales at the (very good) Market Row Wines.


----------



## leanderman (Oct 10, 2013)

Winot said:


> I have my doubts that they will sell many bottles, based unscientifically on the apparent lack of footfall/sales at the (very good) Market Row Wines.



Exactly. Their best hope is glasses of cremant to drink in and cheese to take away.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 10, 2013)

Winot said:


> I have my doubts that they will sell many bottles, based unscientifically on the apparent lack of footfall/sales at the (very good) Market Row Wines.


 
I thought they had been there for a while and must be doing ok?


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 10, 2013)

leanderman said:


> Exactly. Their best hope is glasses of cremant to drink in and cheese to take away.


 
As boohoo said its not cheap.

Satay Gallery does cocktails but it also does a range of cheaper food options throughout the day.

C&F is a very upmarket price range. Which is why its such a wind up.


----------



## treelover (Oct 10, 2013)

All seems a bit King Canute this, such gentrification is awful , but in London its been going on for many years.


----------



## editor (Oct 10, 2013)

Gramsci said:


> As boohoo said its not cheap.
> 
> Satay Gallery does cocktails but it also does a range of cheaper food options throughout the day.


It's also a completely different kind of place too - and I imagine one with far higher overheads - so I'm not sure why it's being held up as any kind of valid comparison.

That said, they do lots of reasonably priced deals, like lunch from £4.95 and a three hour long 'happy hour.'

http://www.sataybar.co.uk/offers.html


----------



## Winot (Oct 10, 2013)

Gramsci said:


> I thought they had been there for a while and must be doing ok?


 
I hope it is - Dave is a lovely guy and his stock is excellent.


----------



## T & P (Oct 10, 2013)

Will they take Brixton Pounds, I wonder...


----------



## Rushy (Oct 10, 2013)

Winot said:


> I hope it is - Dave is a lovely guy and his stock is excellent.


Is he the chap with the longish brown hair? He's a good guy, quite chilled and happy to chat about what he is selling. There is sometimes another guy - short hair - who is quite abrupt and always seems to have something he'd rather be doing other than serve you.


----------



## editor (Oct 10, 2013)

T & P said:


> Will they take Brixton Pounds, I wonder...


I can answer that. The answer is currently no and they haven't approached Brixton Pound either.


----------



## Winot (Oct 10, 2013)

Rushy said:


> Is he the chap with the longish brown hair? He's a good guy, quite chilled and happy to chat about what he is selling. There is sometimes another guy - short hair - who is quite abrupt and always seems to have something he'd rather be doing other than serve you.


 
He's the long-haired guy (and owner).  I suppose the fact he can employ a No. 2 is a good sign (even if he could with some customer training).


----------



## Winot (Oct 10, 2013)

editor said:


> I can answer that. The answer is currently no and they haven't approached Brixton Pound either.


 
 I can't use pay-by-text to buy champagne?  Right that's it - I'm out.


----------



## Onket (Oct 10, 2013)

editor said:


> I can answer that. The answer is currently no and they haven't approached Brixton Pound either.


 
Is that how it works, then? Each shop, restaurant and cafe must individually approach the Brixton Pound to ask to be included in the scheme?

Or do you think that, once they have opened, the Brixton Pound people might contact the shop?


----------



## treelover (Oct 10, 2013)

> Edward Davie
> 
> I am a Lambeth Labour councillor and am very proud that our council is borrowing and investing £500 million in social housing despite the government cutting 45% of our money and halving social housing grants; Brixton Market, voted the best in the country, has been reinvogorated with affordable places to eat that have attracted tens of thousands to the traditional stalls; we have invested millions in Windrush Square with a new Black Cultural Archive opening next year; Ofsted recently found that we have the BEST children's services in the country and the eighth best schools. All this has been achieved by prioritising the most vulnerable and ensuring that resources are redirected from those who occupy property or take services illegally to those who need them most. The properties in Brixton that have been reclaimed for the wider community will directly provide 25 local, less well-off families with social housing and much needed investment for our most vulnerable people. This is not 'yuppification' it is redistributing reources from those who have taken property illegally to the most vulnerable in our community.


 
Posted in the NS awhile ago about the evictions, seems like a nice man...


----------



## treelover (Oct 10, 2013)

Btw, I am aware it was people with left libertarian sensibilities like Dougald Hine with his Spacemakers agency which largely began the yuppification process in the market, someone who incidentally had only been in that part of London for a year or so...


----------



## Onket (Oct 10, 2013)

Brixton Market voted the best _what_ in the country?! It's probably the best Brixton Market in the country but I can't believe it's the best market.


----------



## Rushy (Oct 10, 2013)

Winot said:


> He's the long-haired guy (and owner).  I suppose the fact he can employ a No. 2 is a good sign (even if he could with some customer training).


Might just be a mate taking care of things when he's out. Only seen him a couple of times- but then I'm not in there all that often.


----------



## rutabowa (Oct 10, 2013)

treelover said:


> left libertarian


is that a thing?


----------



## cuppa tee (Oct 10, 2013)

Just wondering if there will be any offline publicity for the street party 
for the benefit of those without Internet/Facebook ?


----------



## editor (Oct 10, 2013)

cuppa tee said:


> Just wondering if there will be any offline publicity for the street party
> for the benefit of those without Internet/Facebook ?


Pretty sure most people who are likely to be in the cheesy protestin' demographic will have heard about it through word of mouth by now. I've certainly heard more than a few people talking about it in the pub/cafe.


----------



## cuppa tee (Oct 10, 2013)

editor said:


> Pretty sure most people who are likely to be in the cheesy protestin' demographic will have heard about it through word of mouth by now. I've certainly heard more than a few people talking about it in the pub/cafe.


I have been spreading the news by word of mouth to a few acquaintances on the street but I was a little concerned because even though I had 'liked' the Facebook page Yuppies Out I didn't get an invite, maybe you don't need one for public events.


----------



## editor (Oct 10, 2013)

cuppa tee said:


> I have been spreading the news by word of mouth to a few acquaintances on the street but I was a little concerned because even though I had 'liked' the Facebook page Yuppies Out I didn't get an invite, maybe you don't need one for public events.


I wasn't invited as such but I'm going


----------



## rutabowa (Oct 10, 2013)

yes the way facebook works it is pretty much impossible to mass-invite people to events, if they are public then that means everyone is invited.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Oct 10, 2013)

An invite only protest would be bizarre.


----------



## Chilavert (Oct 10, 2013)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> An invite only protest would be bizarre.


And very exclusive, which is surely the _last _thing the organisers need.


----------



## Ms T (Oct 10, 2013)

Winot said:


> I have my doubts that they will sell many bottles, based unscientifically on the apparent lack of footfall/sales at the (very good) Market Row Wines.


 
One of the clothes shops in BV has closed down (Saloon) due to lack of business.  The owner told me at the Country Show that people come to BV for (relatively) cheap food, coffee, to hang out etc.  They don't necessarily have lots of disposible income.


----------



## cuppa tee (Oct 10, 2013)

Ms T said:


> One of the clothes shops in BV has closed down (Saloon) due to lack of business.  The owner told me at the Country Show that people come to BV for (relatively) cheap food, coffee, to hang out etc.  They don't necessarily have lots of disposible income.



According to their Facebook page they are relaunching as Woowoo Boutique and by coincidence the opening party is tonight.


----------



## cuppa tee (Oct 10, 2013)

Chilavert said:


> And very exclusive, which is surely the _last _thing the organisers need.


Yes but on the other hand you wouldn't want it to turn into something like that Canalival thing during the summer either.


----------



## TruXta (Oct 10, 2013)

Is it time to start taking bets on how long C&F are gonna last then?


----------



## Rushy (Oct 10, 2013)

Comment in today's ES.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Oct 10, 2013)

Winot said:


> I hope it is - Dave is a lovely guy and his stock is excellent.


I disagree, I had one of the worst bottles of red I've ever had from there.


----------



## TruXta (Oct 10, 2013)

Rushy said:


> Comment in today's ES.


Bah, bollock. This in particular was bollocks


> The middle-classes, especially “yummy mummies”, are portrayed as the ultimate villains. But they’ve only turned up because the housing crisis has pushed them out of other areas. Why not criticise the oligarchs or hedge fund managers who treat London properties as assets, or the Government for not tackling the shortage in supply?



Why not criticise all of those AS WELL AS YM's and the likes of C&F?


----------



## Ms T (Oct 10, 2013)

cuppa tee said:


> According to their Facebook page they are relaunching as Woowoo Boutique and by coincidence the opening party is tonight.


 
That's good.  One of the ladies who ran Saloon is very nice.


----------



## Winot (Oct 10, 2013)

sleaterkinney said:


> I disagree, I had one of the worst bottles of red I've ever had from there.



Sorry to hear that. Was it corked or just not good? What was it?


----------



## Ms T (Oct 10, 2013)

TruXta said:


> Bah, bollock. This in particular was bollocks
> 
> 
> Why not criticise all of those AS WELL AS YM's and the likes of C&F?


 
Shouldn't the middle classes live in Brixton at all then?  It's a good job you've moved as you were part of the problem.  I am too.  Or are we alright because we're liberal and post on U75?


----------



## TruXta (Oct 10, 2013)

Ms T said:


> Shouldn't the middle classes live in Brixton at all then?  It's a good job you've moved as you were part of the problem.  I am too.  Or are we alright because we're liberal and post on U75?


No, we're also part of the problem. As for middle-classes living in Brixton - depends what that means for people lower down the SES scale I'd say.


----------



## Ms T (Oct 10, 2013)

TruXta said:


> No, we're also part of the problem. As for middle-classes living in Brixton - depends what that means for people lower down the SES scale I'd say.


 
It's about the balance, innit.


----------



## TruXta (Oct 10, 2013)

Ms T said:


> It's about the balance, innit.


What should the balance be? Ideally new people moving in shouldn't displace existing residents, but it does. And with the current political/economical setup there's no way to rectify that.


----------



## Winot (Oct 10, 2013)

TruXta said:


> Bah, bollock.



Can't argue with this bit:



> What should worry us most about gentrification isn’t one posh bar — it’s the way the poor are being pushed out of places like Brixton. There’s an obvious solution to that: a large council-house-building programme. So don’t chuck that brick through the window — let’s use it to build.


----------



## TruXta (Oct 10, 2013)

Winot said:


> Can't argue with this bit:


True, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't complain about businesses like C&F, AS WELL AS Tescos, payday loan shops, betting parlours etc etc.


----------



## Ms T (Oct 10, 2013)

TruXta said:


> What should the balance be? Ideally new people moving in shouldn't displace existing residents, but it does. And with the current political/economical setup there's no way to rectify that.


 
Inevitably it does, because housing is in limited supply, but that doesn't necessarily mean they've been forced out.  People move for all sorts of reasons, not just economic ones.


----------



## Ms T (Oct 10, 2013)

TruXta said:


> True, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't complain about businesses like C&F, AS WELL AS Tescos, payday loan shops, betting parlours etc etc.


 
But noone actually protests when the payday loans companies and porn shops move in, do they?


----------



## sleaterkinney (Oct 10, 2013)

Winot said:


> Sorry to hear that. Was it corked or just not good? What was it?


It wasn't corked, just very watery. It was a red bordeux.


----------



## T & P (Oct 10, 2013)

Rushy said:


> Comment in today's ES.



Not that it wasn't flying nicely already, but the thread by the end of the day...


----------



## Winot (Oct 10, 2013)

Rushy said:


> Comment in today's ES.



She's been reading your posts about Dairylea!


----------



## Rushy (Oct 10, 2013)

Winot said:


> She's been reading your posts about Dairylea!


I did wonder!


----------



## TruXta (Oct 10, 2013)

Ms T said:


> Inevitably it does, because housing is in limited supply, but that doesn't necessarily mean they've been forced out.  People move for all sorts of reasons, not just economic ones.


Longer term trends easily finger economic reasons as the main culprit.


----------



## TruXta (Oct 10, 2013)

Ms T said:


> But noone actually protests when the payday loans companies and porn shops move in, do they?


Sadly not very often, no.


----------



## editor (Oct 10, 2013)

Who owns Dairylea sure seems like a whale sized red-herring given the more pressing issues of gentrification and social displacement.

"So don’t chuck that brick through the window — let’s use it to build."

"Us" eh?


----------



## editor (Oct 10, 2013)

Ms T said:


> But noone actually protests when the payday loans companies and porn shops move in, do they?


I'm not sure how I'd feel about that given the fact that it's almost exclusively the poor who desperately need those payday shops.

I'm not sure the battleground is the shops anyway - the real battle should be against the government policies and the lack of regulation that let those bastards thrive and continue to profit from the poverty created by the hideous - and growing - inequalities in our society.

Have any porn shops have open up around here, btw?


----------



## ska invita (Oct 10, 2013)

I think the Evening Standard is to blame for all gentrification, with their incessant articles about how hip once poor areas of London are and endless property porn articles





*waves at evening standard journos!


----------



## tarannau (Oct 10, 2013)

Meanwhile, Champagne and Fromage is getting fitted out at remarkable pace. Almost there by the look of it - there was a man with cravat directing proceedings today.

That, sadly, was not a joke.


----------



## leanderman (Oct 10, 2013)

C+F, because it is so ridiculous, is a ridiculously easy target. 

But as Gabi has pointed out, if protest is the thing, Salon, Canon, Market Row Wines and the new wine bar could just as easily be targeted.

And, again, it seems ok for the Albert to sell champagne but not anyone else.


----------



## editor (Oct 10, 2013)

leanderman said:


> And, again, it seems ok for the Albert to sell champagne but not anyone else.


Has anyone, anywhere, actually argued anything even remotely like that?


----------



## mxh (Oct 10, 2013)

editor said:


> I'm not sure how I'd feel about that given the fact that it's almost exclusively the poor who desperately need those payday shops.
> 
> I'm not sure the battleground is the shops anyway - the real battle should be against the government policies and the lack of regulation that let those bastards thrive and continue to profit from the poverty created by the hideous - and growing - inequalities in our society.
> 
> Have any porn shops have open up around here, btw?


 

Pawn Shops maybe


----------



## editor (Oct 10, 2013)

mxh said:


> Pawn Shops maybe


Prawn sandwich bars soon too, I expect.


----------



## alfajobrob (Oct 10, 2013)

editor said:


> Have any porn shops have open up around here, btw?



Not enough AFAIC....even the newsagents don't sell it anymore


----------



## mxh (Oct 10, 2013)

leanderman said:


> C+F, because it is so ridiculous, is a ridiculously easy target.
> 
> But as Gabi has pointed out, if protest is the thing, Salon, Canon, Market Row Wines and the new wine bar could just as easily be targeted.
> 
> And, again, it seems ok for the Albert to sell champagne but not anyone else.


 
I would much rather protest about kfc or mcD or even Roosters. No one will be rich enough to get heart disease from Champagne and Fromage


----------



## Ms T (Oct 10, 2013)

editor said:


> I'm not sure how I'd feel about that given the fact that it's almost exclusively the poor who desperately need those payday shops.
> 
> I'm not sure the battleground is the shops anyway - the real battle should be against the government policies and the lack of regulation that let those bastards thrive and continue to profit from the poverty created by the hideous - and growing - inequalities in our society.
> 
> Have any porn shops have open up around here, btw?



I meant pawn!  The payday loan shops are obviously serving a need or they wouldn't be there, but they are hugely exploitative.  Ditto betting shops.

I agree that the real battle is against the government - but why then target an independent shop?


----------



## Badgers (Oct 10, 2013)

editor said:
			
		

> Prawn sandwich bars soon too, I expect.



The Albert does prawns. Torpedo ones. Pretty popular as a light side or starter as it goes.


----------



## Ms T (Oct 10, 2013)

leanderman said:


> C+F, because it is so ridiculous, is a ridiculously easy target.
> 
> But as Gabi has pointed out, if protest is the thing, Salon, Canon, Market Row Wines and the new wine bar could just as easily be targeted.
> 
> And, again, it seems ok for the Albert to sell champagne but not anyone else.



That would be the zero hours contracts, minimum wage Albert.


----------



## TruXta (Oct 10, 2013)

I did wonder about that porn shop comment


----------



## alfajobrob (Oct 10, 2013)

Everyone is as bad as each other when it comes to "gentrification" and U75 for making it available to the web chattering classes is one of them.


----------



## editor (Oct 10, 2013)

alfajobrob said:


> Everyone is as bad as each other when it comes to "gentrification" and U75 for making it available to the web chattering classes is one of them.


Brilliant.


----------



## TruXta (Oct 10, 2013)

alfajobrob said:


> Everyone is as bad as each other when it comes to "gentrification" and U75 for making it available to the web chattering classes is one of them.


 this is a joke right?


----------



## alfajobrob (Oct 10, 2013)

editor said:


> Brilliant.



Thank you


----------



## alfajobrob (Oct 10, 2013)

TruXta said:


> this is a joke right?



Sort of, but like most jokes has a ring of truth attached.


----------



## tarannau (Oct 10, 2013)

I've even tried to buy champagne once in the Albert fwiw. They didn't have a bottle cold*


Needless to say, there's a big difference between a brewery owned pub offering a couple of sparkling options on a slightly standardised menu and an enterprise centred around the selling of champagne. I can't say I'm exactly overjoyed by the prospect to say the least. 

I had some early fears about the pace of gentrification in the market, but this is two-fingers up ridiculous really.  


*In mitigation, we did get a bottle of sparkling wine instead.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 10, 2013)

Ms T said:


> Inevitably it does, because housing is in limited supply, but that doesn't necessarily mean they've been forced out.  People move for all sorts of reasons, not just economic ones.


Isn't the problem more that people are moving out and selling at such high prices that only people in very different circumstances from those moving out can afford to move in? Fair few people have made a killing by moving out from places like Brixton.


----------



## editor (Oct 10, 2013)

Ms T said:


> That would be the zero hours contracts, minimum wage Albert.


That would be the same shite deal offered for many of the regular jobs available in Brixton to people who aren't fortunate enough to work in media or whatever, and I doubt if it's much different amongst many of the waiting staff in the Village (unless they're lucky enough to own the place or be nicely monied, of course).


----------



## TruXta (Oct 10, 2013)

alfajobrob said:


> Sort of, but like most jokes has a ring of truth attached.


No it doesn't.


----------



## Ms T (Oct 10, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Isn't the problem more that people are moving out and selling at such high prices that only people in very different circumstances from those moving out can afford to move in? Fair few people have made a killing by moving out from places like Brixton.



Of course, but you can't blame them for selling their house at the market price.  They have to buy in the same market, presumably.


----------



## TruXta (Oct 10, 2013)

I've just thought of a nu-PC term for posh bastards - _differently monied_.


----------



## editor (Oct 10, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Isn't the problem more that people are moving out and selling at such high prices that only people in very different circumstances from those moving out can afford to move in? Fair few people have made a killing by moving out from places like Brixton.


A lot of the people leaving Brixton aren't doing so by choice, but have been forced to do so by landlords looking to make a killing and massively increasing their rent.

And then there's all those lifelong squatters being kicked out by the co-op council too.


----------



## Ms T (Oct 10, 2013)

editor said:


> That would be the same shite deal offered for many of the regular jobs available in Brixton to people who aren't fortunate enough to work in media or whatever, and I doubt if it's much different amongst many of the waiting staff in the Village (unless they're lucky enough to own the place or be nicely monied, of course).



Of course.  Still shit though.


----------



## TruXta (Oct 10, 2013)

Ms T said:


> Of course, but you can't blame them for selling their house at the market price.  They have to buy in the same market, presumably.


IDK, I've often heard it said on here that people started selling back in the 80s and many moved out to cheaper places/more for your money places further afield.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 10, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Isn't the problem more that people are moving out and selling at such high prices that only people in very different circumstances from those moving out can afford to move in? Fair few people have made a killing by moving out from places like Brixton.


Or perhaps landlords inflating prices and forcing people out, or in fact selling places, or councils doing compulsory purchases and redevelopments, or many of the other mechanisms occurring across London whereby people really are forced out of areas.


----------



## Winot (Oct 10, 2013)

Ms T said:


> I meant pawn!  The payday loan shops are obviously serving a need or they wouldn't be there, but they are hugely exploitative.  Ditto betting shops.
> 
> I agree that the real battle is against the government - but why then target an independent shop?



Bingo.


----------



## Ms T (Oct 10, 2013)

TruXta said:


> IDK, I've often heard it said on here that people started selling back in the 80s and many moved out to cheaper places/more for your money places further afield.



Often because they have had a family and need more space, but can't afford to stay in Brixton.  A friend of mine was forced out of E Dulwich for that reason, despite earning a pretty good salary.  As LM has said elsewhere, the soaring house prices benefit very few people. even the middle classes.


----------



## TruXta (Oct 10, 2013)

Why does it matter that a shop is independent?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 10, 2013)

Ms T said:


> Of course, but you can't blame them for selling their house at the market price.  They have to buy in the same market, presumably.


I don't blame them. I have friends who've sold up after 40 years in Brixton, bought a house on the south coast and pocketed more than half a million. But they did not sell to people like them - people like them (they're retired, he was a printer, she worked in admin jobs) are nowhere near able to buy even a flat in Brixton now, let alone a house. They weren't forced out (although they were pretty skint - Maxwell stole most of his pension), but the choices were stark: stay in Brixton and live carefully, or move out and have more money than they know what to do with. It's their children who are forced out.


----------



## editor (Oct 10, 2013)

Ms T said:


> Of course.  Still shit though.


And all the nu-money coming into Brixton isn't going to make a scrap of difference to their lives (in fact, it'll make things worse, as the soaring rent prices will make it almost impossible for those at the bottom of the pile to stay in their own community).


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 10, 2013)

editor said:


> A lot of the people leaving Brixton aren't doing so by choice, but have been forced to do so by landlords looking to make a killing and massively increasing their rent.
> 
> And then there's all those lifelong squatters being kicked out by the co-op council too.


Yes, that is true. Renters are forced out.


----------



## Ms T (Oct 10, 2013)

editor said:


> Who owns Dairylea sure seems like a whale sized red-herring given the more pressing issues of gentrification and social displacement.
> 
> "So don’t chuck that brick through the window — let’s use it to build."
> 
> "Us" eh?



To be fair to her, she does say she grew up in Camberwell.  She's more of a local than most of us!


----------



## tarannau (Oct 10, 2013)

TruXta said:


> IDK, I've often heard it said on here that people started selling back in the 80s and many moved out to cheaper places/more for your money places further afield.



That's partly true, but also because I suspect people didn't have the same idea of property as profit potential back then. Many of my relatives moved out because the suburbs offered complete, comparatively modern houses with fancy treats like central heating and your own front door, not portions of ramshackle victorian terraces. Most working families didn't have the will or ambition to tackle those big projects, nor could foresee that the neighbourhood would improve so quickly.


----------



## Winot (Oct 10, 2013)

Ms T said:


> That would be the zero hours contracts, minimum wage Albert.



Is this true?


----------



## TruXta (Oct 10, 2013)

tarannau said:


> That's partly true, but also because I suspect people didn't have the same idea of property as profit potential back then. Many of my relatives moved out because the suburbs offered complete, comparatively modern houses with fancy treats like central heating and your own front door, not portions of ramshackle victorian terraces. Most working families didn't have the will or ambition to tackle those big projects, nor could foresee that the neighbourhood would improve so quickly.


That's a fair point.


----------



## Ms T (Oct 10, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I don't blame them. I have friends who've sold up after 40 years in Brixton, bought a house on the south coast and pocketed more than half a million. But they did not sell to people like them - people like them (they're retired, he was a printer, she worked in admin jobs) are nowhere near able to buy even a flat in Brixton now, let alone a house. They weren't forced out (although they were pretty skint - Maxwell stole most of his pension), but the choices were stark: stay in Brixton and live carefully, or move out and have more money than they know what to do with. It's their children who are forced out.



We wouldn't be able to afford our house now, probably.  Despite being "lucky enough to work in the media".


----------



## editor (Oct 10, 2013)

TruXta said:


> Why does it matter that a shop is independent?


Some independents stores can be every bit as exploitative and as uninterested in local matters as chain stores, and the distinction continues to get fuzzier as 'independents' morph into fast growing chains with wealthy backers. The traditional image of an independent store is often quite at odds with the reality of the actual company itself.


----------



## Ms T (Oct 10, 2013)

Winot said:


> Is this true?



Yes.


----------



## editor (Oct 10, 2013)

Winot said:


> Is this true?


Blimey, where have you been? It's the same for loads of pub/club workers/cleaners /fast food workers etc and it fucking sucks.


----------



## editor (Oct 10, 2013)

Ms T said:


> To be fair to her, she does say she grew up in Camberwell.  She's more of a local than most of us!


I've certainly lived in Brixton longer than she has and parts of Camberwell can be as posh as Hampstead, not that any of this makes a great deal of difference to the price of a Dairylea cheese slice.


----------



## TruXta (Oct 10, 2013)

editor said:


> Some independents stores can be every bit as exploitative and as uninterested in local matters as chain stores, and the distinction continues to get fuzzier as 'independents' morph into fast growing chains with wealthy backers. The traditional image of an independent store is often quite at odds with the reality of the actual company itself.


If the only criterium is that it's not a chain then it's not politically very relevant, no.


----------



## Ms T (Oct 10, 2013)

editor said:


> And all the nu-money coming into Brixton isn't going to make a scrap of difference to their lives (in fact, it'll make things worse, as the soaring rent prices will make it almost impossible for those at the bottom of the pile to stay in their own community).



Soaring rents are making it impossible for everyone - I keep hearing about scary rent rises all over the place, most recently to a colleague at work who pays a crazy amount of money for a studio flat in Pimlico.  It was affordable when she moved in several years ago, not now and when she complains they just say they could find somebody else in five minutes, who would take the flat without even looking at it.  

This "Help to Buy" scheme is just going to make things worse.  We need to build more flats/houses, both to buy and as social housing!


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 10, 2013)

I must say that "Brixton people leaving the area are making a fat profit and it's basically them to blame for gentrification" is a new one.


----------



## TruXta (Oct 10, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I must say that "Brixton people leaving the area are making a fat profit and it's basically them to blame for gentrification" is a new one.


Who's said that then?


----------



## alfajobrob (Oct 10, 2013)

TruXta said:


> No it doesn't.



Yes it does...if you actively promote an area then why be surprised when people believe the hype and move in.


----------



## editor (Oct 10, 2013)

Ms T said:


> This "Help to Buy" scheme is just going to make things worse.  We need to build more flats/houses, both to buy and as social housing!


We need *council* housing and we need more money paid by the tax-evading rich fuckers to pay for it. We don't need more people owning property and climbing the fucking property ladder, we need more affordable, secure, high quality housing for all.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 10, 2013)

Ms T said:


> This "Help to Buy" scheme is just going to make things worse.


Yep. Just as 'part-rent, part-buy' made things worse. It pumps government subsidy in to an already overinflated private housing market from the bottom. I would argue that it is immoral for the government to put money into private housing.


----------



## Ms T (Oct 10, 2013)

editor said:


> I've certainly lived in Brixton longer than she has and parts of Camberwell can be as posh as Hampstead, not that any of this makes a great deal of difference to the price of a Dairylea cheese slice.



Only Camberwell Grove, really, and that's pushing it!


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 10, 2013)

TruXta said:


> Who's said that then?


I'm afraid that is a bit of the subtext I'm getting here. I'm sure I am misinterpreting though.


----------



## TruXta (Oct 10, 2013)

alfajobrob said:


> Yes it does...if you actively promote an area then why be surprised when people believe the hype and move in.


... and that's the only reason Brixton's become popular? I know Ed's ego is planetary in size  but really neither he nor anyone else from the community* is to blame for what's happened.

*who's been vocal about the joys of Brixton


----------



## Ms T (Oct 10, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Yep. Just as 'part-rent, part-buy' made things worse. It pumps government subsidy in to an already overinflated private housing market from the bottom. I would argue that it is immoral for the government to put money into private housing.


Taxpayers are underwriting mortgages - it's crazy.


----------



## editor (Oct 10, 2013)

TruXta said:


> ... and that's the only reason Brixton's become popular? I know Ed's ego is planetary in size  but really neither he nor anyone else from the community* is to blame for what's happened.
> 
> *who's been vocal about the joys of Brixton


I still emails from people complaining about the 'negative' image my photos give of Brixton!


----------



## TruXta (Oct 10, 2013)

editor said:


> I still emails from people complaining about the 'negative' image my photos give of Brixton!


Best make them a bit more negative then.


----------



## Ms T (Oct 10, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Yep. Just as 'part-rent, part-buy' made things worse. It pumps government subsidy in to an already overinflated private housing market from the bottom. I would argue that it is immoral for the government to put money into private housing.



But I can understand why people are desperate to buy their own home, given the lack of secure housing and hugely inflated rents.  Most of us are never going to be eligible for social housing.


----------



## Winot (Oct 10, 2013)

editor said:


> Blimey, where have you been? It's the same for loads of pub/club workers/cleaners /fast food workers etc and it fucking sucks.



Assumed it was minimum wage. Didn't know zero hours was quite so wide spread.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 10, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I'm afraid that is a bit of the subtext I'm getting here. I'm sure I am misinterpreting though.


Was that aimed at me? It's not really what I said. But a basic problem certainly is people selling up for prices that people like them could never afford. They're not 'to blame'. But if they're not to blame, then the people buying at the inflated prices are not 'to blame' either.


----------



## editor (Oct 10, 2013)

Winot said:


> Assumed it was minimum wage. Didn't know zero hours was quite so wide spread.


Oh, it's everywhere. Rich fuckers like to do whatever they can to keep the poor at the bottom.


----------



## TruXta (Oct 10, 2013)

I wonder how many people sell their houses significantly below market rates out of choice?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 10, 2013)

Ms T said:


> But I can understand why people are desperate to buy their own home, given the lack of secure housing and hugely inflated rents.  Most of us are never going to be eligible for social housing.


Yep. Absolutely. Many of the individuals stuck in the system are not to be blamed for their actions at all. I tried to get a part-rent part-buy a while ago as it was the only way I could possibly escape insecure short-term-lease private renting. I resented it, tbh. I resented not having the option of affordable, secure renting, but I certainly didn't have that option. Turns out I didn't even have the option of part-rent part-buy.


----------



## Winot (Oct 10, 2013)

editor said:


> Oh, it's everywhere. Rich fuckers like to do whatever they can to keep the poor at the bottom.



Zero hours is certainly something I'd march against. Immoral as fuck.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 10, 2013)

> ROSAMUND SAYS:
> 
> The middle-classes, especially “yummy mummies”, are portrayed as the ultimate villains. But they’ve only turned up because the housing crisis has pushed them out of other areas. Why not criticise the oligarchs or hedge fund managers who treat London properties as assets, or the Government for not tackling the shortage in supply?


Hi Rosamund, since you are a well paid journalist writing on a paper that reaches 1.7million people evry day, owned by an oligarch and read by many hedge fund manages WHY DONT YOU write a piece that criticises them for forcing the rest of us normal people out of our communities? I'd like to read that in the Standard.

Whats more since you are reading this thread and plagiarising bits of it why dont you sign up and join in properly instead. Start a "hello im new here thread" in general so we know youve done so


----------



## sleaterkinney (Oct 10, 2013)

Lots of Middle England have money tied up in properties, either in BTL or as an investment and no politician is going to want to piss them off by taking the heat out of the market. The tories are making it even worse at the moment to warm up their voter base.


----------



## alfajobrob (Oct 10, 2013)

TruXta said:


> ... and that's the only reason Brixton's become popular? I know Ed's ego is planetary in size  but really neither he nor anyone else from the community* is to blame for what's happened.
> 
> *who's been vocal about the joys of Brixton



Not the "only" reason. I think it may have been a small contributing factor mind...who the fuck would have moved to Shoreditch etc. if it wasn't for websites\media telling them about how "cool" it was?


----------



## alfajobrob (Oct 10, 2013)

TruXta said:


> Best make them a bit more negative then.



Too late for me I've been priced out to West Norwood....the shame


----------



## Ms T (Oct 10, 2013)

I've just had a leaflet through the door from Winkworth's.

"We just let a property on your street, which has let a number of applicants disappointed.  Our applicants have *flexible budgets*...


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 10, 2013)

alfajobrob said:


> Not the only reason. I think it may have been a small contributing factor mind...who the fuck would have moved to Shoreditch etc. if it wasn't for websites\media telling them about how "cool" it was?


There's a process. It happened in Shoreditch, Hoxton, it's now even starting to happen in Clapton and Homerton, Hackney Wick, all kinds of places that a few years ago you would have found it hard to imagine as places like that. Artists and others with not much money move to a place because it's cheap but relatively central. They do stuff - put on shows, club nights, etc - that brings others into the area, and the area becomes known as somewhere where _stuff happens_. And other people with a lot more money start wanting to move to the places where stuff happens. Eventually, the kind of people who made the place in the first place can no longer afford to live there, and the nature of the stuff that is happening there changes, becomes safer, more corporate.


----------



## TruXta (Oct 10, 2013)

alfajobrob said:


> Not the "only" reason. I think it may have been a small contributing factor mind...who the fuck would have moved to Shoreditch etc. if it wasn't for websites\media telling them about how "cool" it was?


You've got this backwards. Shoreditch became trendy because when it was cheap (and dead central) lots of different people were able to mix there - artists/"cool" people as well as the poor, alongside the already existing middle-upper class segment. The media people conveyed it mostly after the fact. Now it's a lot less diverse than it was 10 years ago, like Brixton.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 10, 2013)

Winot said:
			
		

> Is this true?



Up the workers


----------



## Ms T (Oct 10, 2013)

Winot said:


> Zero hours is certainly something I'd march against. Immoral as fuck.



They really don't treat their staff well...


----------



## Ms T (Oct 10, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> There's a process. It happened in Shoreditch, Hoxton, it's now even starting to happen in Clapton and Homerton, Hackney Wick, all kinds of places that a few years ago you would have found it hard to imagine as places like that. Artists and others with not much money move to a place because it's cheap but relatively central. They do stuff - put on shows, club nights, etc - that brings others into the area, and the area becomes known as somewhere where _stuff happens_. And other people with a lot more money start wanting to move to the places where stuff happens. Eventually, the kind of people who made the place in the first place can no longer afford to live there, and the nature of the stuff that is happening there changes, becomes safer, more corporate.



^^  This.

I am constantly amazed by the kind of people I am seeing in Brixton these days.  Doesn't stop the hugely annoying claptrap I get from my older work colleagues, mind, who live in the Home Cunties Counties.


----------



## alfajobrob (Oct 10, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> There's a process. It happened in Shoreditch, Hoxton, it's now even starting to happen in Clapton and Homerton, Hackney Wick, all kinds of places that a few years ago you would have found it hard to imagine as places like that. Artists and others with not much money move to a place because it's cheap but relatively central. They do stuff - put on shows, club nights, etc - that brings others into the area, and the area becomes known as somewhere where _stuff happens_. And other people with a lot more money start wanting to move to the places where stuff happens. Eventually, the kind of people who made the place in the first place can no longer afford to live there, and the nature of the stuff that is happening there changes, becomes safer, more corporate.



In other words Ed and his arty mates are to blame for the corporatisation of Brixton...shame on you all!


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 10, 2013)

alfajobrob said:


> In other words Ed and his arty mates are to blame for the corporatisation of Brixton...shame on you all!


Ed is a good example of someone who does the kind of stuff in Brixton that makes people want to move there, yes. And someone who probably wouldn't now be able to live there if he didn't have an affordable rent. 

But this process is exacerbated hugely by the lack of social housing, the lack of rent controls, the repeated attempts by government to drive house prices up and up, the massive wage inequalities that are growing daily, etc, etc. There is a wider context to this stuff too.


----------



## editor (Oct 10, 2013)

alfajobrob said:


> Not the "only" reason. I think it may have been a small contributing factor mind...who the fuck would have moved to Shoreditch etc. if it wasn't for websites\media telling them about how "cool" it was?


You seem to be mistaking this site for some sort of Nathan Barley nu-media promo lifestyle mag.


----------



## Winot (Oct 10, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> There's a process. It happened in Shoreditch, Hoxton, it's now even starting to happen in Clapton and Homerton, Hackney Wick, all kinds of places that a few years ago you would have found it hard to imagine as places like that. Artists and others with not much money move to a place because it's cheap but relatively central. They do stuff - put on shows, club nights, etc - that brings others into the area, and the area becomes known as somewhere where _stuff happens_. And other people with a lot more money start wanting to move to the places where stuff happens. Eventually, the kind of people who made the place in the first place can no longer afford to live there, and the nature of the stuff that is happening there changes, becomes safer, more corporate.



It's been happening for quite a while though hasn't it? My parents rented in 'Grotty Notty' in 1969 because they could afford the low rents...


----------



## alfajobrob (Oct 10, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Ed is a good example of someone who does the kind of stuff in Brixton that makes people want to move there, yes. And someone who probably wouldn't now be able to live there if he didn't have an affordable rent.
> 
> But this process is exacerbated hugely by the lack of social housing, the lack of rent controls, the repeated attempts by government to drive house prices up and up, the massive wage inequalities that are growing daily, etc, etc. There is a wider context to this stuff too.


 
I was joking and I know that but you cannot deny that urban75 and the brixton buzz etc have in some small way helped people of a more monied persuasion move here.

Waves from Knights Hill.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 10, 2013)

Ms T said:
			
		

> They really don't treat their staff well...



I don't know how the workers cope


----------



## TruXta (Oct 10, 2013)

Winot said:


> It's been happening for quite a while though hasn't it? My parents rented in 'Grotty Notty' in 1969 because they could afford the low rents...


When was the last housing "crash"? Early 90s? Ever since then so.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 10, 2013)

Winot said:


> It's been happening for quite a while though hasn't it? My parents rented in 'Grotty Notty' in 1969 because they could afford the low rents...


Yep. Well the process involves those who start it off needing eventually to move on somewhere else and start it up all over again there.


----------



## editor (Oct 10, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Ed is a good example of someone who does the kind of stuff in Brixton that makes people want to move there, yes.


Yet these new arrivals seem to want to _*close down*_ all the things that I enthused about!


----------



## editor (Oct 10, 2013)

Badgers said:


> I don't know how the workers cope


Ms T will be outside with a banner tomorrow!


----------



## Badgers (Oct 10, 2013)

editor said:
			
		

> Ms T will be outside with a banner tomorrow!



Work to rule


----------



## alfajobrob (Oct 10, 2013)

editor said:


> You seem to be mistaking this site for some sort of Nathan Barley nu-media promo lifestyle mag.



Ahh fuck......I thought I was on Wired.com...Sorry my mishtake


----------



## happyshopper (Oct 10, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Ed is a good example of someone who does the kind of stuff in Brixton that makes people want to move there, yes.



A classic example of confusing correlation with causation. Ed writes about Brixton because it's objectively a great and interesting place to live. Brixton is being gentrified because people with more money have realised Brixton is a great and interesting place to live.


----------



## TruXta (Oct 10, 2013)

happyshopper said:


> A classic example of confusing correlation with causation. Ed writes about Brixton because it's objectively a great and interesting place to live. Brixton is being gentrified because people with more money have realised Brixton is a great and interesting place to live.


But mostly that it was/is relatively cheap, has good shopping in certain areas, a decent nightlife and is most importantly quite well connected public transport wise.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 10, 2013)

editor said:


> Yet these new arrivals seem to want to _*close down*_ all the things that I enthused about!


The horrible thing about the process is that people like you can only do the stuff they do because they're not spending most of their waking hours earning as much money as they can. The _passivity_ of the new arrivals - as consumers, not producers, within the place they live - is symptomatic of their wage-earning habits. Seems to me that gentrification will always lead to a more passive kind of richer person moving in, who will impose their consuming requirements through the weight of their wallets.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 10, 2013)

happyshopper said:


> A classic example of confusing correlation with causation. Ed writes about Brixton because it's objectively a great and interesting place to live. Brixton is being gentrified because people with more money have realised Brixton is a great and interesting place to live.


I was thinking about offline and stuff like that - you know, putting stuff on in Brixton. Not writing about it, doing things in it. I'm not talking about Urban75.


----------



## editor (Oct 10, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I was thinking about offline and stuff like that - you know, putting stuff on in Brixton. Not writing about it, doing things in it. I'm not talking about Urban75.


Well, perhaps, but there's always been stuff going on in Brixton, but most of what I did always had some sort of political edge and - gasp! - radical poetry, and that generally doesn't go down a storm with house buying types or rabid gentrifiers.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 10, 2013)

editor said:


> Well, perhaps, but there's always been stuff going on in Brixton, but most of what I did always had some sort of political edge and - gasp! - radical poetry, and that generally doesn't go down a storm with house buying types or rabid gentrifiers.



You're part of the cultural millieu. 

That said, yes, as the process goes on I'm sure there will now be people moving there for other reasons, because of the other things that have come in with gentrification.


----------



## editor (Oct 10, 2013)

TruXta said:


> But mostly that it was/is relatively cheap, has good shopping in certain areas, a decent nightlife and is most importantly quite well connected public transport wise.


Indeed. I suspect that it was the mix of its gentrifier-unfriendly demographics, its lingering reputation, and its long standing squatting/alternative community that helped keep Brixton off the Foxtons map.

*amongst other things


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 10, 2013)

editor said:


> Indeed. I suspect that it was the mix of its gentrifier-unfriendly demographics, its lingering reputation, and its long standing squatting/alternative community that helped keep Brixton off the Foxtons map.
> 
> *amongst other things


There are different kinds of gentrifying, though. I don't know enough about Brixton to comment, but the hipster-gentrifiers, for want of a better term - advertising types, basically - are the ones who've driven the changes in places like Hoxton. Maybe Brixton is different, more city types, perhaps?

ETA: I guess they're quite different. Brixton's a big place with some very 'nice' areas, while Hoxton is a small place without any 'nice' areas.


----------



## editor (Oct 10, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> There are different kinds of gentrifying, though. I don't know enough about Brixton to comment, but the hipster-gentrifiers, for want of a better term - advertising types, basically - are the ones who've driven the changes in places like Hoxton. Maybe Brixton is different, more city types, perhaps?


We certainly haven't suffered the same kind of relentless hipster onslaught that was inflicted on Shoreditch/Hoxton, but maybe because most of the available empty warehouse spaces/shops etc were already occupied by a long standing squatting community?


----------



## sleaterkinney (Oct 10, 2013)

happyshopper said:


> A classic example of confusing correlation with causation. Ed writes about Brixton because it's objectively a great and interesting place to live. Brixton is being gentrified because people with more money have realised Brixton is a great and interesting place to live.


Brixton is being gentrified because of it's housing stock and transport links. It's not like it's unique to Brixton either, it's happening all over London.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 10, 2013)

sleaterkinney said:


> Brixton is being gentrified because of it's housing stock and transport links. It's not like it's unique to Brixton either, it's happening all over London.


The prosaic answer. 

A lot of truth to that. Lots of nice houses and a tube station. Same is true of Wood Green, though, and it hasn't gone through the roof like Brixton. The extent to which Brixton has changed has to do with a little more than that, no?


----------



## leanderman (Oct 10, 2013)

Cheese counter looks promising.


----------



## rutabowa (Oct 10, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> The prosaic answer.
> 
> A lot of truth to that. Lots of nice houses and a tube station. Same is true of Wood Green, though, and it hasn't gone through the roof like Brixton. The extent to which Brixton has changed has to do with a little more than that, no?


Just a matter of time. Brixton has been gentrifying ever since the clash name checked it in that song.... blame them.


----------



## Ms T (Oct 10, 2013)

It really does look good!


----------



## Ms T (Oct 10, 2013)

rutabowa said:


> Just a matter of time. Brixton has been gentrifying ever since the clash name checked it in that song.... blame them.



I've been having this discussion since I joined U75, 10 years ago maybe!


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 10, 2013)

rutabowa said:


> Just a matter of time.


Who can resist the charms of Shopping City?


----------



## ash (Oct 10, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> The prosaic answer.
> 
> A lot of truth to that. Lots of nice houses and a tube station. Same is true of Wood Green, though, and it hasn't gone through the roof like Brixton. The extent to which Brixton has changed has to do with a little more than that, no?


I have been visiting wood green  frequently of late and hardly think it  can be compared with Brixton.  The day Brixton gets a Vue cinema complex will be the day I leave, not a sign of gentrification but of suburban homogenisation - awful!!


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 10, 2013)

I bet they sell a great mature gouda. I love mature gouda. /gentrifier


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 10, 2013)

ash said:


> I have been visiting wood green  frequently of late and hardly think it  can be compared with Brixton.  The day Brixton gets a Vue cinema complex will be the day I leave, not a sign of gentrification but of suburban homogenisation - awful!!


That was kind of my point. But it's on the tube and there are lots of streets with nice houses on them. So Brixton is perhaps something more than just nice houses and good transport links...


----------



## cesare (Oct 10, 2013)

leanderman said:


> Cheese counter looks promising.


"Brie, Roquefort, Pol le Veq, Port Salut, Savoy Aire, Saint Paulin, Carrier de lest, Bres Bleu, Bruson?"


----------



## TruXta (Oct 10, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> That was kind of my point. But it's on the tube and there are lots of streets with nice houses on them. So Brixton is perhaps something more than just nice houses and good transport links...


It IS twice as far out as Brixton. And there's not that much else around it either.


----------



## Ms T (Oct 10, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> The prosaic answer.
> 
> A lot of truth to that. Lots of nice houses and a tube station. Same is true of Wood Green, though, and it hasn't gone through the roof like Brixton. The extent to which Brixton has changed has to do with a little more than that, no?



Are you sure it hasn't?  It was more expensive than Brixton anyway, I seem to recall.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Oct 10, 2013)

I don't know Wood Green very well but rightmove shows plenty of houses at £600k plus. While that might be a little cheaper than Brixton that's still a lot of wealth in the area - maybe in a year or two that pent up demand will start to see more upmarket shops and bars opening and start the more visible cycle going. So the opposite of the view that it's the bars etc that drive the house prices.


----------



## Dan U (Oct 10, 2013)

Rushy said:


> Comment in today's ES.



Just catching up with this thread and I just want to take a moment to   that a flippant joke I made about Buckfast and Dairylea made it in to this bollocks in the Stannah 

Good work urban

ETA except on further reading perhaps that's not where it came from. As you were.


----------



## rutabowa (Oct 10, 2013)

TruXta said:


> It IS twice as far out as Brixton. And there's not that much else around it either.


Yeah you can cycle from brixton to central in about 20 mins right? You cd walk if you had to. Wood green is quite a different thing to that, you are really separated from the centre


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 10, 2013)

Ms T said:


> Are you sure it hasn't?  It was more expensive than Brixton anyway, I seem to recall.


I don't know, tbh. I kind of assumed it was cheaper! We need Hollis here. If you're right, then sleaterkinney is really totally right - Brixton's gentrification is just because of the big houses there and the tube.


----------



## rutabowa (Oct 10, 2013)

Fuck if it isn't actually cheaper then it totally should be.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 10, 2013)

rutabowa said:


> Yeah you can cycle from brixton to central in about 20 mins right? You cd walk if you had to. Wood green is quite a different thing to that, you are really separated from the centre


I've walked from Brixton to central London. It takes well over an hour.

I've also walked from central London to Clapton. That took nearly two hours. I'm guessing Wood Green would be similar.


----------



## leanderman (Oct 10, 2013)

I can confirm that the people at F+C are reading this thread


----------



## rutabowa (Oct 10, 2013)

leanderman said:


> I can confirm that the people at F+C are reading this thread


OMG


----------



## trabuquera (Oct 10, 2013)

Dan U said:


> Just catching up with this thread and I just want to take a moment to   that a flippant joke I made about Buckfast and Dairylea made it in to this bollocks in the Stannah
> 
> Good work urban
> 
> ETA except on further reading perhaps that's not where it came from. As you were.




* outrageous situationist multimedia stunt idea appears in a flash of lightning*

I know! I've got it! Never mind the nouveau boho anarcho demonstrating - _let's set a  crack squad of OG SW9 crack squirrels on these incomers!_

*rubs hands in anticipation*


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 10, 2013)

Ms T said:


> Shouldn't the middle classes live in Brixton at all then?  It's a good job you've moved as you were part of the problem.  I am too.  Or are we alright because we're liberal and post on U75?



Depends on what u mean by middle class. I have a friend who is a journalist. Would say she is middle class professional. She would not be able to afford Champagne at £9 a glass. It is not the sort of place she uses. 

She owns a house in Walthamstow. She says that there is no way she could buy a house there now.

There are really well off people in London. And seems a lot of them. The middle class is a vague term. 

I was in Fortnum & Mason recently picking up something and in front of me was a guy ordering £300 pounds of presents for someone. It beggars belief how wealthy some people are to fork out this kind of money.  

I noticed as well the info on the customer desk was translated into Chinese. The latest Oligarchs who shop in London.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 10, 2013)

leanderman said:


> I can confirm that the people at F+C are reading this thread


I would like to commission a monogrammed top hat please.


----------



## Ms T (Oct 10, 2013)

leanderman said:


> I can confirm that the people at F+C are reading this thread



Are they inviting us to their party?


----------



## Ms T (Oct 10, 2013)

Gramsci said:


> Depends on what u mean by middle class. I have a friend who is a journalist. Would say she is middle class professional. She would not be able to afford Champagne at £9 a glass. It is not the sort of place she uses.
> 
> She owns a house in Walthamstow. She says that there is no way she could buy a house there now.
> 
> ...



Of course the term middle class covers a wide range of people.  I'd say a lot of the people moving in to Brixton are middle class but don't necessarily have lots of disposible income, like your friend.  They're probably paying extortionate rents with not that much left over.  The average age for buying a property now is 35.


----------



## Ms T (Oct 10, 2013)

leanderman said:


> I can confirm that the people at F+C are reading this thread



And please can you stock Tomme Aux Raisins at Christmas. 

Thanks.


----------



## TruXta (Oct 10, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I've walked from Brixton to central London. It takes well over an hour.
> 
> I've also walked from central London to Clapton. That took nearly two hours. I'm guessing Wood Green would be similar.


Google says WG is almost twice as many miles from Ch X as Brixton.


----------



## TruXta (Oct 10, 2013)

leanderman said:


> I can confirm that the people at F+C are reading this thread


And why wouldn't they? It's on the first page if you do a google search for GF + Brixton.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 10, 2013)

Ms T said:


> Of course the term middle class covers a wide range of people.  I'd say a lot of the people moving in to Brixton are middle class but don't necessarily have lots of disposible income, like your friend.  They're probably paying extortionate rents with not that much left over.  The average age for buying a property now is 35.


There's something of a divide in the UK, and definitely London, now between those who got sorted for housing before the boom (either by buying or by getting social housing when it was still possible to get it) and those who did not. We're in a very fucked situation now - if you didn't get yourself sorted then, there are only bad options available to you - stretch yourself for a mortgage in a place you don't even really want to live, or pay over the odds for a private, insecure place that you might be booted out of with two months' notice.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 10, 2013)

TruXta said:


> Google says WG is almost twice as many miles from Ch X as Brixton.


Sounds about right. ChX is south-central, though.


----------



## TruXta (Oct 10, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Sounds about right. ChX is south-central, though.


It's the recognised cartographic centre of London isn't it?


----------



## rutabowa (Oct 10, 2013)

Ms T said:


> I've been having this discussion since I joined U75, 10 years ago maybe!


I hope I didnt plagiarise! Further to that tho you know who is responsible for hackney and bow gentrifying? DIZZEE RASCAL. Soon as you put a place in a pop song it is the beginning of the end.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 10, 2013)

rutabowa said:


> I hope I didnt plagiarise! Further to that tho you know who is responsible for hackney and bow gentrifying? DIZZEE RASCAL. Soon as you put a place in a pop song it is the beginning of the end.


I lived in Stoke Newington in the mid-90s and it was already gentrifying then...


----------



## rutabowa (Oct 10, 2013)

TruXta said:


> It's the recognised cartographic centre of London isn't it?


GUYS you are both already agreeing!!


----------



## Ms T (Oct 10, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> There's something of a divide in the UK, and definitely London, now between those who got sorted for housing before the boom (either by buying or by getting social housing when it was still possible to get it) and those who did not. We're in a very fucked situation now - if you didn't get yourself sorted then, there are only bad options available to you - stretch yourself for a mortgage in a place you don't even really want to live, or pay over the odds for a private, insecure place that you might be booted out of with two months' notice.



Agreed.  Although obviously it also depends how old you are.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 10, 2013)

TruXta said:


> It's the recognised cartographic centre of London isn't it?


Dunno. I've always thought of that as Centre Point. Either way, I'm quibbling. Wood Green is zone 4, I think. While Brixton is zone 2.


----------



## rutabowa (Oct 10, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I lived in Stoke Newington in the mid-90s and it was already gentrifying then...


That's separate.  That was the baader meinhof that did that bit.


----------



## TruXta (Oct 10, 2013)

rutabowa said:


> GUYS you are both already agreeing!!


Oh I know, I know.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 10, 2013)

rutabowa said:


> GUYS you are both already agreeing!!


Oi. Furiously agreeing with one another is what makes Urban what it is.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 10, 2013)

leanderman said:


> I can confirm that the people at F+C are reading this thread



Really?

Just like to tell them to fuck off.


----------



## TruXta (Oct 10, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Dunno. I've always thought of that as Centre Point. Either way, I'm quibbling. Wood Green is zone 4, I think. While Brixton is zone 2.


Zone 3 I believe, just on the edge.


----------



## TruXta (Oct 10, 2013)

Gramsci said:


> Really?
> 
> Just like to tell them to fuck off.


You want some cheese?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 10, 2013)

TruXta said:


> Zone 3 I believe, just on the edge.


Ah. It's very important to cling to those edges.


----------



## TruXta (Oct 10, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Ah. It's very important to cling to those edges.


Damned right. I'm a literal stones throw from a BR postcode #shudders


----------



## Ms T (Oct 10, 2013)

TruXta said:


> Damned right. I'm a literal stones throw from a BR postcode #shudders



(((TruXta)))


----------



## TruXta (Oct 10, 2013)

Ms T said:


> (((TruXta)))


Thanks, but we're not actually in it! Had we been prices would be higher tho. Because it's more desirable than SE20 apparently.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Oct 10, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> The prosaic answer.
> 
> A lot of truth to that. Lots of nice houses and a tube station. Same is true of Wood Green, though, and it hasn't gone through the roof like Brixton. The extent to which Brixton has changed has to do with a little more than that, no?


Dunno if the houses and transport links are as good.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Oct 10, 2013)

I like the look of that cheese.


----------



## happyshopper (Oct 10, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I bet they sell a great mature gouda. I love mature gouda. /gentrifier



Aged Gouda please.


----------



## fortyplus (Oct 10, 2013)

cesare said:


> "Brie, Roquefort, Pol le Veq, Port Salut, Savoy Aire, Saint Paulin, Carrier de lest, Bres Bleu, Bruson?"


but do they have Maroilles?


----------



## TruXta (Oct 10, 2013)

Is it only French cheeses they do then?


----------



## T & P (Oct 10, 2013)

Gramsci said:


> Really?
> 
> Just like to tell them to fuck off.


Speak for yourself.

Hello there?? For a free bottle of bubbly and a nice platter, I'm available as a saboteur against the Yuppies Out demo. *PM me for details*


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 10, 2013)

Was thinking about boohoo saying about branding.

The ES piece says this is independent shop supplied by independent family producers. The emphasis according to there website is against mass production and for artisan production. 

One review I read said there shops are like going into a French village. There own website talks of "rustic" fare.

The brand incorporates aspects of counter culture/ green politics . Such as opposing mass production. Supporting small is beautiful ethos. 

In reality it is like Marie Antoinette "farm" where she played at living the simple rural life. 

C&F is example of how capitalism incorporate oppositional politics. The brand is exclusive high end product. It is an example of successful niche marketing. There are those with disposable income in London who can buy into this slice of fantasy rural rustic life.


----------



## happyshopper (Oct 10, 2013)

On a taxonomic point, anyone who suggests that there are "yummy mummies" in Brixton demonstrates their ignorance. If you want to see YMs, go to Abbeville Road, East Dulwich or Northcote Road. Their appearance and behaviour is quite different to those whose appearance in Brixton has given rise to complaints - i.e. young, predominantly single people with some money to spare to have a good time. Hipsters, if you must. However, it may just be a matter of time.


----------



## rutabowa (Oct 10, 2013)

sleaterkinney said:


> Dunno if the houses and transport links are as good.


There is only one narrow road from wood green into the centre and it is really nightmarish.  You can't get a nightbus back from there to anywhere easily.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 10, 2013)

TruXta said:


> You want some cheese?



Its not cheese its "Fromage"

"Cheese" is what I get from Iceland.


----------



## Dan U (Oct 10, 2013)

I really don't get this abuse of women with babies. Omg how dare they go out with their pushchairs and there babies and socialise during the day. Stay at home ffs out of our way. 
Declaring an interest - I'm an occasional not very yummy daddy btw. I take my baby son to a cafe for a coffee and a sausage sarnie. I bet I wouldn't get shit like this. It really annoys me for some reason.


----------



## Ms T (Oct 10, 2013)

Dan U said:


> I really don't get this abuse of women with babies. Omg how dare they go out with their pushchairs and there babies and socialise during the day. Stay at home ffs out of our way.
> Declaring an interest - I'm an occasional not very yummy daddy btw. I take my baby son to a cafe for a coffee and a sausage sarnie. I bet I wouldn't get shit like this. It really annoys me for some reason.



And me.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 10, 2013)

happyshopper said:


> On a taxonomic point, anyone who suggests that there are "yummy mummies" in Brixton demonstrates their ignorance. If you want to see YMs, go to Abbeville Road, East Dulwich or Northcote Road. Their appearance and behaviour is quite different to those whose appearance in Brixton has given rise to complaints - i.e. young, predominantly single people with some money to spare to have a good time. Hipsters, if you must. However, it may just be a matter of time.



Agree with this. Same in Notting Hill. 

Though in Notting Hill things have moved on. Its the Filipina pushing the pram.


----------



## ash (Oct 10, 2013)

Gramsci said:


> Agree with this. Same in Notting Hill.


More likely to see the yammy nanny in Notting Hill


----------



## ash (Oct 10, 2013)

Gramsci said:


> Agree with this. Same in Notting Hill.
> 
> Though in Notting Hill things have moved on. Its the Filipina pushing the pram.





ash said:


> More likely to see the yammy nanny in Notting Hill


SNAP


----------



## cesare (Oct 10, 2013)

fortyplus said:


> but do they have Maroilles?


*consults monty python cheese shop sketch*


----------



## happyshopper (Oct 10, 2013)

"Yummy mummy is a slang term used in the United Kingdom to describe young, attractive and wealthy mothers" - Wikipedia

So if you're not wealthy you are not being got at. I actually think it's more class than wealth.


----------



## Ms T (Oct 10, 2013)

ash said:


> More likely to see the yammy nanny in Notting Hill



That's true.  If you drive through South Ken/Earl's Court at end of school time you see all the rich kids being picked up by Filippinos.


----------



## ash (Oct 10, 2013)

ash said:


> SNAP


Did you edits and add the nanny bit ?.. Didn't see it when I replied???


----------



## Dan U (Oct 10, 2013)

happyshopper said:


> "Yummy mummy is a slang term used in the United Kingdom to describe young, attractive and wealthy mothers" - Wikipedia
> 
> So if you're not wealthy you are not being got at. I actually think it's more class than wealth.



Nah bollocks it's used by people who get fucked off with pushchairs and children in their favourite cafes. 

It's an easy lazy slur

ETA anyway don't want to derail this thread any further so will stfu on this aspect now. I've got it off my chest, been bugging me for ages on here


----------



## ash (Oct 10, 2013)

Ms T said:


> That's true.  If you drive through South Ken/Earl's Court at end of school time you see all the rich kids being picked up by Filippinos.


Any morning in south ken, Notting hill etc you could imagine you were in Manilla. Filipino 'staff' cleaning, child minding, dog walking etc.


----------



## leanderman (Oct 10, 2013)

Their house champagne will be £7.50 by the glass


----------



## leanderman (Oct 10, 2013)

TruXta said:


> Is it only French cheeses they do then?



I think so


----------



## Ms T (Oct 10, 2013)

leanderman said:


> Their house champagne will be £7.50 by the glass



Have you been employed as media relations, lm?


----------



## Manter (Oct 10, 2013)

Dan U said:


> I really don't get this abuse of women with babies. Omg how dare they go out with their pushchairs and there babies and socialise during the day. Stay at home ffs out of our way.
> Declaring an interest - I'm an occasional not very yummy daddy btw. I take my baby son to a cafe for a coffee and a sausage sarnie. I bet I wouldn't get shit like this. It really annoys me for some reason.


It annoys me for very obvious reasons


----------



## leanderman (Oct 10, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> There's something of a divide in the UK, and definitely London, now between those who got sorted for housing before the boom (either by buying or by getting social housing when it was still possible to get it) and those who did not. We're in a very fucked situation now - if you didn't get yourself sorted then, there are only bad options available to you - stretch yourself for a mortgage in a place you don't even really want to live, or pay over the odds for a private, insecure place that you might be booted out of with two months' notice.



This is so true. And so sad. 

Renting was, once, viable in central-ish London. No more.

And, in Liverpool, houses are trading for £1.


----------



## leanderman (Oct 10, 2013)

Ms T said:


> Have you been employed as media relations, lm?



They are paying me in champagne.


----------



## T & P (Oct 10, 2013)

Dan U said:


> I really don't get this abuse of women with babies. Omg how dare they go out with their pushchairs and there babies and socialise during the day. Stay at home ffs out of our way.
> Declaring an interest - I'm an occasional not very yummy daddy btw. I take my baby son to a cafe for a coffee and a sausage sarnie. I bet I wouldn't get shit like this. It really annoys me for some reason.


One of the funniest threads in here for years involved, funnily enough, both yummy mummies and The Brixton  Village. There was much dismay and consternation at women with expensive prams taking a lot of space at various coffee shops and restaurants in the Village. 

Perhaps all C&F needs to do to win our acceptance is to ban prams and infants from its premises.


----------



## Manter (Oct 10, 2013)

happyshopper said:


> "Yummy mummy is a slang term used in the United Kingdom to describe young, attractive and wealthy mothers" - Wikipedia
> 
> So if you're not wealthy you are not being got at. I actually think it's more class than wealth.


Yeah, but no one stops and asks about your actual wealth (or class, if you'd rather) do they? They just see a group of mothers drinking overpriced coffee in the middle of the day and make assumptions. 

/bugbear /derail


----------



## Ms T (Oct 10, 2013)

leanderman said:


> This is so true. And so sad.
> 
> Renting was, once, viable in central-ish London. No more.
> 
> And, in Liverpool, houses are trading for £1.



I have a colleague - lovely old-school journo, union man - who lives in Soho!  He bought a flat years ago on Wardour Street.  Mind you, I think he might be secretly posh.


----------



## Ms T (Oct 10, 2013)

Manter said:


> Yeah, but no one stops and asks about your actual wealth (or class, if you'd rather) do they? They just see a group of mothers drinking overpriced coffee in the middle of the day and make assumptions.
> 
> /bugbear /derail



Tbf, that's true of all of us who might hang out in BV on occasion.  I bet everyone thinks I'm one of these arriviste types.  We all make assumptions about everyone, all the time.


----------



## Manter (Oct 10, 2013)

Ms T said:


> Tbf, that's true of all of us who might hang out in BV on occasion.  I bet everyone thinks I'm one of these arriviste types.  We all make assumptions about everyone, all the time.


True enough. Doesn't stop it really bugging me though


----------



## ffsear (Oct 10, 2013)

Dan U said:


> I really don't get this abuse of women with babies. Omg how dare they go out with their pushchairs and there babies and socialise during the day. Stay at home ffs out of our way.
> Declaring an interest - I'm an occasional not very yummy daddy btw. I take my baby son to a cafe for a coffee and a sausage sarnie. I bet I wouldn't get shit like this. It really annoys me for some reason.




Its called jealousy!


----------



## Winot (Oct 10, 2013)

Gramsci said:


> Was thinking about boohoo saying about branding.
> 
> The ES piece says this is independent shop supplied by independent family producers. The emphasis according to there website is against mass production and for artisan production.
> 
> ...



I think the "slice of fantasy rural rustic life" is something you've invented. 

As I understand it, they are stocking grower champagne (Récoltant-Manipulant) rather than champagne from the large houses. In other words, independent producers who own the vineyards the wine comes from. 

In France, this is considered a good thing. Supporting independent producers. Here, it would appear that champagne as a drink is so freighted with negative connotation that the positive side of things is obscured.


----------



## trashpony (Oct 10, 2013)

Ms T said:


> Tbf, that's true of all of us who might hang out in BV on occasion.  I bet everyone thinks I'm one of these arriviste types.  We all make assumptions about everyone, all the time.


It was that photo of you in the Guardian that did it


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 10, 2013)

leanderman said:


> Their house champagne will be £7.50 by the glass



Says £8 here. 

Typical ES headline:



> Brixton property is bubbling up as champagne bar opens




Nice pic of the happy couple behind Yuppy Fizz as well.


----------



## Ms T (Oct 10, 2013)

trashpony said:


> It was that photo of you in the Guardian that did it



Shut it.  You're so gentrified even your kittens play with wine boxes.


----------



## TruXta (Oct 10, 2013)

Winot said:


> I think the "slice of fantasy rural rustic life" is something you've invented.
> 
> As I understand it, they are stocking grower champagne (Récoltant-Manipulant) rather than champagne from the large houses. In other words, independent producers who own the vineyards the wine comes from.
> 
> In France, this is considered a good thing. Supporting independent producers. Here, it would appear that champagne as a drink is so freighted with negative connotation that the positive side of things is obscured.


There'll be no champagne for you after the revolution.


----------



## oryx (Oct 10, 2013)

rutabowa said:


> Just a matter of time. Brixton has been gentrifying ever since the clash name checked it in that song.... blame them.


 
Brixton (and indeed the Hoxton/Shoreditch area) have indeed been gentrifying since at least the 80s.

In the first wave of my friends buying property, they did so in those areas, attracted by cheap property, good transport and places like the Bass Clef & Fridge.


----------



## TruXta (Oct 10, 2013)

oryx said:


> Brixton (and indeed the Hoxton/Shoreditch area) have indeed been gentrifying since at least the 80s.
> 
> In the first wave of my friends buying property, they did so in those areas, attracted by cheap property, good transport and places like the Bass Clef & Fridge.


Our former landlady was one of the relative latecomers - illustrator by trade, bought a large 1 bed for less than 100k in about 98, the sold for 360ish this year. She was happy in a dismayed way about the rise, knowing it was madness.


----------



## TruXta (Oct 10, 2013)

This thing is a cycle right - the rise and fall of a place's fortunes. So when was Brixton last a predominantly middle-class area? Anyone know? Gramsci ?


----------



## SarfLondoner (Oct 10, 2013)

leanderman said:


> Their house champagne will be £7.50 by the glass


Is that for a half or a pint?


----------



## peterkro (Oct 10, 2013)

TruXta said:


> This thing is a cycle right - the rise and fall of a place's fortunes. So when was Brixton last a predominantly middle-class area? Anyone know? Gramsci ?


Up until the beginning of the fifties.


----------



## TruXta (Oct 10, 2013)

peterkro said:


> Up until the beginning of the fifties.


Cheers. What happened then? Windrush?


----------



## peterkro (Oct 10, 2013)

TruXta said:


> Cheers. What happened then? Windrush?


Yesish.


----------



## TruXta (Oct 10, 2013)

peterkro said:


> Yesish.


yeah no, figured it had to be linked to wider stuff and changes to the city - basically much of London was in a bit of a decline up until the late 80s wasn't it, demographically speaking at least?


----------



## peterkro (Oct 10, 2013)

TruXta said:


> yeah no, figured it had to be linked to wider stuff and changes to the city - basically much of London was in a bit of a decline up until the late 80s wasn't it, demographically speaking at least?


Yeah it was obviously more complicated than that,the flight to the suburbs by the middle classes not a small factor.


----------



## boohoo (Oct 10, 2013)

TruXta said:


> Damned right. I'm a literal stones throw from a BR postcode #shudders



I'm a stone throw from a CR postcode! Fingers crossed that our land lady won't want to put up the rent in June.


----------



## TruXta (Oct 10, 2013)

peterkro said:


> Yeah it was obviously more complicated than that,the flight to the suburbs by the middle classes not a small factor.


Wasn't the flight of the mc's a bit of a myth? Or was it really like this VVV


----------



## TruXta (Oct 10, 2013)

boohoo said:


> I'm a stone throw from a CR postcode! Fingers crossed that our land lady won't want to put up the rent in June.


Is CR dearer or cheaper than your current?


----------



## Belushi (Oct 10, 2013)

TruXta said:


> yeah no, figured it had to be linked to wider stuff and changes to the city - basically much of London was in a bit of a decline up until the late 80s wasn't it, demographically speaking at least?


 
My Mums family mostly moved out to the new towns in the 60's and 70's. Nice new houses with green space, central heating, fitted carpets, fitted kitchens, bathrooms; it was a dream come true. The next generation and half of us couldn't wait to come back


----------



## alfajobrob (Oct 10, 2013)

TruXta said:


> And why wouldn't they? It's on the first page if you do a google search for GF + Brixton.



Not gentrifying the area at all then.


----------



## boohoo (Oct 10, 2013)

TruXta said:


> Is CR dearer or cheaper than your current?



Probably depends which bit of CR - however we'd have to try and get something at a similar price.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 10, 2013)

Winot said:


> I think the "slice of fantasy rural rustic life" is something you've invented.
> 
> As I understand it, they are stocking grower champagne (Récoltant-Manipulant) rather than champagne from the large houses. In other words, independent producers who own the vineyards the wine comes from.
> 
> In France, this is considered a good thing. Supporting independent producers. Here, it would appear that champagne as a drink is so freighted with negative connotation that the positive side of things is obscured.



From a review:



> Many of the fittings have been salvaged from closing restaurants and restored or refurbished to give a shabby chic interior that has the feeling of having just popped up on Wellington Street from a French village.



This:



> from the artfully worn interiors, to the enthusiastic servers, to the unapologetically decadent food – was just as a French bistro should be.



A French Bistro was what we would call a Cafe.

The well worn interiors of C&F are a fabrication. C&F is designed like that. In reality it is a high end luxury product. When I say product I do not just mean the champagne. I mean the whole brand. This has been thought out and marketed. The people who set up this business are not stupid. Its not really a French cafe its a fantasy reconstruction for the well off. Its a luxury brand ( there is logo for The Luxury Network on there website).

There website goes on about "authentic French flair" and "rustic".

This is not France and the connotations are different. You are right to say connotations. The design of there "bistro" invokes in the reviewers that this is an authentic bit of France in London. Its a marketing fantasy aimed at the well off.


----------



## boohoo (Oct 10, 2013)

So if the champagne shop goes away, will we have won?


----------



## alfajobrob (Oct 10, 2013)

Ms T said:


> That's true.  If you drive through South Ken/Earl's Court at end of school time you see all the rich kids being picked up by Filippinos.



Really.....I tend not to hang around school gates due to the banning order.....sounds good though.

If I had the parental joy of producing a little oxygen thief...I'd pack the cunt off to boarding school before that stage...they sound like good parents, but each to there own eh.


----------



## peterkro (Oct 10, 2013)

^^ I went past the other day and the tables are "French cafe" originals the type of thing that cost next to nothing in France but are exported here for extortionate prices.


----------



## ash (Oct 10, 2013)

TruXta said:


> This thing is a cycle right - the rise and fall of a place's fortunes. So when was Brixton last a predominantly middle-class area? Anyone know? Gramsci ?


Complicated:
My partner has local genes: 
1930 his grandparents worked in several butchers shops ( one was where the golden curry is now in Clapham. 
1938  they lived in 
Brayburn  avenue clapham (rooms in a house), brixton hill was where the posh people lived (owner of the butchers)


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 10, 2013)

TruXta said:


> This thing is a cycle right - the rise and fall of a place's fortunes. So when was Brixton last a predominantly middle-class area? Anyone know? Gramsci ?



When the railway first came here it was a more upmarket area. Have a look editor then and now photos.

Bon Marche is good example.




> *c. 1905*
> This impressive building was opened in 1905 as an extension to the sprawling Bon Marché empire (which was already employing over 400 people in 1888).
> 
> Bon Marché's first store opened in Brixton in 1877, the first purpose built department store in the country.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 10, 2013)

boohoo said:


> So if the champagne shop goes away, will we have won?



Yes


----------



## boohoo (Oct 10, 2013)

Gramsci said:


> When the railway first came here it was a more upmarket area. Have a look  then and now photos.
> Bon Marche is good example.


In the 1890s, the area was full of the music hall stars.


----------



## boohoo (Oct 10, 2013)

Gramsci said:


> Yes



won what ?


----------



## leanderman (Oct 10, 2013)

Gramsci said:


> From a review:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This is true but the accents and the produce are French. 

Hell of a lot of a French folk around here. Maybe they'll keep it in business.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 10, 2013)

I don't see anyone driving any fucking zebras around Brixton nowadays. Zebras, I'd give a pass to. Champagne and top hats can fuck off.


----------



## Hollis (Oct 10, 2013)

Gramsci said:


> This is not France and the connotations are different. You are right to say connotations. The design of there "bistro" invokes in the reviewers that this is an authentic bit of France in London. Its a marketing fantasy aimed at the well off.


 
Café/Restaurant in 'selling a fantasy' shocker..


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 11, 2013)

leanderman said:


> This is true but the accents and the produce are French.
> 
> Hell of a lot of a French folk around here. Maybe they'll keep it in business.



I will ask my French friend what he thinks of this. He is from Marseilles though. It is all quite different down there from this rustic bistro fantasy.


----------



## leanderman (Oct 11, 2013)

Gramsci said:


> I will ask my French friend what he thinks of this. He is from Marseilles though. It is all quite different down there from this rustic bistro fantasy.



Most 'foreign' restaurants are inauthentic.


----------



## gaijingirl (Oct 11, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I bet they sell a great mature gouda. I love mature gouda. /gentrifier



there was a lovely stall at the Lambeth Country show selling mature Dutch cheeses.  I'd never had a mature Edam/Gouda before... they were gorgeous.  They sold them for 3 really large pieces for a tenner.  They were yummy... completely different from the Gouda/Edam in the supermarket, very different taste.  We bought a couple of flavoured ones too.  They had a sign up saying "We want to do more business in London"... wish I knew who they were or where they are now, 'cos I'd love some more.


----------



## Hollis (Oct 11, 2013)

leanderman said:


> Most 'foreign' restaurants are inauthentic.


 
Though I do remember when "authentic" Irish pubs got refitted as Irish theme pubs..   Valiant Trooper near Goodge St for example.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 11, 2013)

gaijingirl said:


> there was a lovely stall at the Lambeth Country show selling mature Dutch cheeses.  I'd never had a mature Edam/Gouda before... they were gorgeous.  They sold them for 3 really large pieces for a tenner.  They were yummy... completely different from the Gouda/Edam in the supermarket, very different taste.  We bought a couple of flavoured ones too.  They had a sign up saying "We want to do more business in London"... wish I knew who they were or where they are now, 'cos I'd love some more.


Crunchy cheese.  I'd never had crunchy cheese before. You can buy it at Borough Market, and many years ago there was a shop in East Dulwich that sold it. Only places I've seen it in Britain.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 11, 2013)

Hollis said:


> Café/Restaurant in 'selling a fantasy' shocker..



Went to see Zizek film on Ideology at Ritzy last week. He goes into how some of this works.

Selling fantasies is how modern consumerist capitalism operates. 

Advertising and marketing work on peoples desires. Or help to create desires. 

Its not my idea. Plenty has been written this.


----------



## gaijingirl (Oct 11, 2013)

happyshopper said:


> "Yummy mummy is a slang term used in the United Kingdom to describe young, attractive and wealthy mothers" - Wikipedia
> 
> So if you're not wealthy you are not being got at. I actually think it's more class than wealth.



ah... NOW I know why I don't fit the bill...


----------



## gaijingirl (Oct 11, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Crunchy cheese.  I'd never had crunchy cheese before. You can buy it at Borough Market, and many years ago there was a shop in East Dulwich that sold it. Only places I've seen it in Britain.




ah.. that's a shame.  I think I probably know the shop in E. Dulwich that sells it and obviously know Borough Market.  Very unlikely to go to either again any time soon.  Shame.  I thought people would pop up and say it's sold all over the place now.  It was very lovely.  But still - good to know, I might add it to my Christmas list.


----------



## Hollis (Oct 11, 2013)

Gramsci said:


> Went to see Zizek film on Ideology at Ritzy last week. He goes into how some of this works.
> 
> Selling fantasies is how modern consumerist capitalism operates.
> 
> ...


 
yes - I fully agree with you..


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 11, 2013)

leanderman said:


> Most 'foreign' restaurants are inauthentic.



I meant Marseille is not quite what some people think France is like. My friend from Marseille  showed me recently a French newspaper with a photo of a guy holding an AK47 on front page. It was a member of a drugs gang. Big problem in that city. Somehow do not think that is what C&F marketing would have as part of there ambiance.


----------



## leanderman (Oct 11, 2013)

Gramsci said:


> I meant Marseille is not quite what some people think France is like. He showed me recently French newspaper with a guy holding an AK47. It was a member of a drugs gang. Big problem in that city. Somehow do not think that is what C&F marketing would have as part of there ambiance.



Went there last year. Rough old place in parts although centre now revamped by Norman Foster. High murder rate has made recent headlines.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 11, 2013)

gaijingirl said:


> ah.. that's a shame.  I think I probably know *the shop in E. Dulwich* that sells it and obviously know Borough Market.  Very unlikely to go to either again any time soon.  Shame.  I thought people would pop up and say it's sold all over the place now.  It was very lovely.  But still - good to know, I might add it to my Christmas list.


The posh cheese shop about half way up the hill on the left. Sure it's the only one. Was pricey, mind, but by buggery, it was good.


----------



## leanderman (Oct 11, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> The posh cheese shop about half way up the hill on the left. Sure it's the only one. Was pricey, mind, but by buggery, it was good.



East Dulwich Cheese Block, now made obsolete by title of this thread.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 11, 2013)

leanderman said:


> East Dulwich Cheese Block, now made obsolete by title of this thread.


 And here perhaps we have a problem.  I like posh cheese. I might appreciate this place. /gentrifier


----------



## gaijingirl (Oct 11, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> The posh cheese shop about half way up the hill on the left. Sure it's the only one. Was pricey, mind, but by buggery, it was good.



the one I know is on Lordship Lane, The Cheese Block, East side in the middle of all the shops - very flat - there's a hill going up from the station to Sainsbury's and a hill at the other end of Lordship Lane going up to the S. Circular - but this one is very much on the flat.  So maybe there are two?  That being said, I've only bought cheese there 2x I think, once pre-kids and once I made the mistake of taking a buggy into there around Christmas time.  Haven't been back since.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 11, 2013)

gaijingirl said:


> the one I know is on Lordship Lane, The Cheese Block, East side in the middle of all the shops - very flat - there's a hill going up from the station to Sainsbury's and a hill at the other end of Lordship Lane going up to the S. Circular - but this one is very much on the flat.  So maybe there are two?  That being said, I've only bought cheese there 2x I think, once pre-kids and once I made the mistake of taking a buggy into there around Christmas time.  Haven't been back since.


No, same one. Lordship Lane, on the left as you go up from the junction at the bottom. My mate used to live at the top of LL by the Plough, so I'd walk up it. You're right, the first bit is rather flat.

ETA I know the Plough isn't the Plough now...


----------



## leanderman (Oct 11, 2013)

gaijingirl said:


> the one I know is on Lordship Lane, The Cheese Block, East side in the middle of all the shops - very flat - there's a hill going up from the station to Sainsbury's and a hill at the other end of Lordship Lane going up to the S. Circular - but this one is very much on the flat.  So maybe there are two?  That being said, I've only bought cheese there 2x I think, once pre-kids and once I made the mistake of taking a buggy into there around Christmas time.  Haven't been back since.



Just the one you named. Dangerously good. But I avoid shopping in E Dulwich, except for kids' shoes.


----------



## gaijingirl (Oct 11, 2013)

leanderman said:


> Just the one you named. Dangerously good. But I avoid shopping in E Dulwich, except for kids' shoes.



  didn't we once have a set-to about this because you were going to Northcote Road for shoes and I advised you to go to Lordship Lane instead.  I seem to recall you were very snooty about this idea?


----------



## alfajobrob (Oct 11, 2013)

East Dulwich thread ftw.


----------



## DrRingDing (Oct 11, 2013)

Anyhoo, who fancies activities tomorrow?


----------



## gaijingirl (Oct 11, 2013)

gaijingirl said:


> didn't we once have a set-to about this because you were going to Northcote Road for shoes and I advised you to go to Lordship Lane instead.  I seem to recall you were very snooty about this idea?



yes... here it is!

http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/what-happened-to-the-clarks-webster-shop.290030/#post-10984282

"I would rather bind my children's feet than spend money on Lordship Lane"

(((Leanderman's children's feet)))


----------



## Manter (Oct 11, 2013)

gaijingirl said:


> yes... here it is!
> 
> http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/what-happened-to-the-clarks-webster-shop.290030/#post-10984282
> 
> ...


Apparently east Dulwich types 'slyly' use our tube station. 

I have visions of men in monogrammed, double cuffed shirts shiftily sidling round the corner of Starbucks now...


----------



## alfajobrob (Oct 11, 2013)

lol and people whinge about gentrification..

How about all the incomers just fuck off back to the back of beyond..you could sort out house prices, schools, whingeing and poncey deli's in one swoop.


----------



## alfajobrob (Oct 11, 2013)

I'm mostly talking about the Cornish\Welsh btw....them with their fancy pasty shops and hip websites.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 11, 2013)

boohoo said:


> won what ?



Its like the Barratts  Brixton square issue. I knew we would probably lose but it was doing it to make it clear that a lot of people were not happy about it that counted.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 11, 2013)

alfajobrob said:


> I'm mostly talking about the Cornish\Welsh btw....them with their fancy pasty shops and hip websites.


i'm welsh and I once set foot in a posh east dulwich cheesery and bought mature gouda...

...and I liked it.


----------



## alfajobrob (Oct 11, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> i'm welsh and I once set foot in a posh east dulwich cheesery and bought mature gouda...
> 
> ...and I liked it.



Scum......

What shop btw...just so I can boycott it like..I hate nice cheese.


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Oct 11, 2013)

I think the suggestions earlier in this thread that somehow this protest isn't legitimate, perhaps because 'people haven't opposed payday loan shops or Seven or Cannon & Cannon' or whatever, is fucking bollocks. You don't get to pick and pick and choose what people want to protest about. 

We have a long history of protest and resistance in Brixton and I reckon it's a fucking insult to all the locals and activists (some who use these boards, but many who don't) who've put their time and their lives into trying to make things better. In just the past few years locally we've had an active pensioners' anti-cuts group, loads of housing activists and protests, boycott workfare shutting down various retailers and protesting outside A4E on Brixton Road, local public sector strikes, UkUncut shutting down various banks and businesses, anti-cuts union activities, campaigns to save local libraries/the Rec/etc, anti-Foxtons stuff, people protesting planning applications and asset sell-offs, anti-eviction protests, a Thatcher death party....

...and at the same time living standards are going down, people are being priced out of the area, or evicted....

...and yet somehow this protest is unfair on the champagne-swilling wealthy classes who are prepared to spend £50 on a few drinks....

fucks sake.


----------



## gabi (Oct 11, 2013)

editor said:


> I've really no idea what you're on about, I'm afraid. What the hell is an upmarket bar for donkeys and what marketing materials have I designed for them?



Apologies for abbreviating such a complex term. Let me clarify. _Donkey's years._

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/donkey's years



> _chiefly British_
> *:*  a very long time



Oh, and here's the marketing materials I was referring to.

http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...hip-and-trendy-people.2204/page-2#post-139319

Arguably that place was one of the pioneers of brixton's latest wave of gentrification. Really cant be arsed reading ten more pages of this but if you could lay off the personal abuse that would be appreciated btw.


----------



## gabi (Oct 11, 2013)

Actually that menu design has a familiar look to it too..

http://www.loungebrixton.com/menu

Champagne - £6.50 a pop. Bargain!


----------



## DRINK? (Oct 11, 2013)

Tis like anywhere since cities came into being, bohemians move in, followed by gentrifiers....not going to change it and do think this the wrong target, but an easy one I guess. Effect rather than cause.

Aren't cities meant to be changing, fluid etc...I find it fascinating  how they change over time


----------



## Winot (Oct 11, 2013)

gabi said:


> Actually that menu design has a familiar look to it too..
> 
> http://www.loungebrixton.com/menu
> 
> Champagne - £6.50 a pop. Bargain!



£1 less a glass then - a reasonable hit to take for being supported rather than attacked.


----------



## Winot (Oct 11, 2013)

boohoo said:


> So if the champagne shop goes away, will we have won?



I don't think it even needs to go away for 'victory': just change its name. If it had been called "Brixton cheese and wine" it would have opened without a fuss.


----------



## gabi (Oct 11, 2013)

How about this joint then?

http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/gremio-de-brixton.315921/

Should it also change its name?


----------



## Winot (Oct 11, 2013)

gabi said:


> How about this joint then?
> 
> http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/gremio-de-brixton.315921/
> 
> Should it also change its name?



Absolutely. British names for British people.

"Trade Union of Brixton" according to Google Translate. The punters will be flooding in.


----------



## Hollis (Oct 11, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> A lot of truth to that. Lots of nice houses and a tube station. Same is true of Wood Green, though, and it hasn't gone through the roof like Brixton.


 
Bloody well wish it would.


----------



## boohoo (Oct 11, 2013)

Gramsci said:


> Its like the Barratts  Brixton square issue. I knew we would probably lose but it was doing it to make it clear that a lot of people were not happy about it that counted.



I'm more pissed off about two Sainsburys on Brixton Road and a new William Hill!!

(Although housing issues and the Barratt's Brixton Square issue should be what people are shouting about)


----------



## boohoo (Oct 11, 2013)

Winot said:


> I don't think it even needs to go away for 'victory': just change its name. If it had been called "Brixton cheese and wine" it would have opened without a fuss.



"Cheese and wine for genuine working class Brixton types keeping it real in the Ghetto" (Quite a long piece of signage needed)

I can see the marketing campaign now! "Come sit on second hand furniture and share moldy cheese with the locals"


----------



## leanderman (Oct 11, 2013)

gaijingirl said:


> didn't we once have a set-to about this because you were going to Northcote Road for shoes and I advised you to go to Lordship Lane instead.  I seem to recall you were very snooty about this idea?



Yes, took your advice. But, to preserve my dignity, did it vicariously by 'sending' wife to the Clarks place.


----------



## gabi (Oct 11, 2013)

editor said:


> What the hell is an upmarket bar for donkeys and what marketing materials have I designed for them?



Actually, the recently arrived to brixton people who are organising this protest against recently arrived to brixton people might be able to help you out...



> The band were called Fat White Family and they’d crawled out of the squats of South London. They sounded like a mix of Bong Water, Charles Manson, the Butthole Surfers round a campfire, the most smacked out and slowest Birthday Party and Cramps numbers. And someone on Twitter said that one of them had ridden a donkey into a pub. I could imagine it. With every acid head, junkie, squatter, artist, desperado and caner in the area casting palm leaves on the floor before him. I could imagine him riding right up to the bar and saying: “Two pints of Stella please and a pickled gherkin for my ass.”



http://thequietus.com/articles/11781-fat-white-family-interview


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Oct 11, 2013)

I tend to agree with Brixton Hatter tbh.

There's a fairly simplistic view of the gentrification process put out on here sometimes, where a cosy established community of poor folk are booted out by the evil wealthy. I think that's a massive simplification, the reasons for which have been gone over and over many times on here. But the actual effects of what's going on are very real and the ultimate message of all the 'but what about this?' sort of objections is mostly 'don't do anything.'

In all honesty this protest doesn't seem all that well thought out, it does look a bit like what it criticises, and it seems to be strongly associated with a band whose main characteristics are being fucking shit, and being complete wankers. But at least it's something, and maybe something will come out of it. Maybe not but who knows?


----------



## han (Oct 11, 2013)

They sound dreadful. 
I know they were on at Offline recently weren't they. Sorry Editor! :-D


----------



## han (Oct 11, 2013)

Monkeygrinder - spot on. 
I think Winot is right about the name. It's the name that provokes the anger. It's so wanky. 

If they'd called themselves Bubblecheese or something, there would be no protest.


----------



## Rushy (Oct 11, 2013)

han said:


> Monkeygrinder - spot on.
> I think Winot is right about the name. It's the name that provokes the anger. It's so wanky.
> 
> If they'd called themselves *Bubblecheese *or something, there would be no protest.


 Even I'd protest if it was called that! 
I agree the name is not doing it any favours although I imagine it was intended to sound fun rather than pretentious or clever. Dropping in a foreign word Del Boy style is seen by some as showy or posh.


----------



## boohoo (Oct 11, 2013)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> I tend to agree with Brixton Hatter tbh.
> 
> There's a fairly simplistic view of the gentrification process put out on here sometimes, where a cosy established community of poor folk are booted out by the evil wealthy. I think that's a massive simplification, the reasons for which have been gone over and over many times on here. But the actual effects of what's going on are very real and the ultimate message of all the 'but what about this?' sort of objections is mostly 'don't do anything.'
> 
> In all honesty this protest doesn't seem all that well thought out, it does look a bit like what it criticises, and it seems to be strongly associated with a band whose main characteristics are being fucking shit, and being complete wankers. But at least it's something, and maybe something will come out of it. Maybe not but who knows?



I think it's the protest itself by this Yuppies Out group that bugs me - nowt against the idea of getting rid of yuppies in the area (though how we define this might be an issue) or protesting but I don't know who they are or what their agenda is. Their facebook page is heavily stylised - creating a kind of 'Yuppies Out' Brand - there is no conversation/dialogue about supporting other campaigns. I think the only thing to come out of it is publicity for the champagne place, publicity for Yuppies Out and for Brixton Buzz who have written lots about it.

Real impact for people - not alot.


----------



## Dexter Deadwood (Oct 11, 2013)

boohoo said:


> I think it's the protest itself by this Yuppies Out group that bugs me - nowt against the idea of getting rid of yuppies in the area (though how we define this might be an issue) or protesting but I don't know who they are or what their agenda is. Their facebook page is heavily stylised - creating a kind of 'Yuppies Out' Brand - there is no conversation/dialogue about supporting other campaigns. I think the only thing to come out of it is publicity for the champagne place, publicity for Yuppies Out and for Brixton Buzz who have written lots about it.
> 
> Real impact for people - not alot.



It's a symbolic protest and ought to be a bit of fun, keep it real?


----------



## Rushy (Oct 11, 2013)

boohoo said:


> I think it's the protest itself by this Yuppies Out group that bugs me - nowt against the idea of getting rid of yuppies in the area (though how we define this might be an issue) or protesting but I don't know who they are or what their agenda is. Their facebook page is heavily stylised - creating a kind of 'Yuppies Out' Brand - there is no conversation/dialogue about supporting other campaigns. I think the only thing to come out of it is publicity for the champagne place, publicity for Yuppies Out and for Brixton Buzz who have written lots about it.
> 
> Real impact for real people - not alot.



Apart from making a couple of people opening a bar in Brixton feel very threatened. (As if it is not obvious, they are quoted in Brixton Blog as saying they are worried.)

I don't mind mind protest in general but I don't like the flavour of this one. It's particularly disappointing to see individuals who sought public support for the aggressive _*manner *_in which Carlton Mansions was being handled, supporting this kind of bullying of one shop. Pretending that a campaign with people talking about throwing bricks through a particular shop's windows and calling for death to Yuppie scum (whoever they might be) is peaceful is simply denial.


----------



## ffsear (Oct 11, 2013)

What time is the England game?


----------



## Dan U (Oct 11, 2013)

ffsear said:


> What time is the England game?



i doubt they are showing it in this new place mate.


----------



## Rushy (Oct 11, 2013)

Dexter Deadwood said:


> It's a symbolic protest and ought to be a bit of fun, keep it real?


Yes - because of the "cool" anti-branding of Yuppies Out I am sure it will attract a lot of people just looking for a bit of edgy fun before they head out and spank their pay on getting wankered on their own choice of booze. That's part of what bothers me about this protest. Style and fun (for some) over substance.

Reclaim the Streets was subversive and fun. No one could complain anyone was being personally threatened.


----------



## Rushy (Oct 11, 2013)

gabi said:


> Arguably that place was one of the pioneers of brixton's latest wave of gentrification. Really cant be arsed reading ten more pages of this but if you could lay off the personal abuse that would be appreciated btw.





> I really don't see what the problem is: if you don't like this new café/bar - don't go! It's as simple as that! It's not going to affect earnings in the Albert or the Phoenix, and although the argument that rising business rents is going to affect some areas of Brixton, you can't blame individual shops for that - they're merely responding to the demand.
> 
> I like the choice and don't see how the swanky new cafés can't get along just fine with the old fashioned greasy spoons.


----------



## Dexter Deadwood (Oct 11, 2013)

Rushy said:


> Yes - because of the "cool" anti-branding of Yuppies Out I am sure it will attract a lot of people just looking for a bit of edgy fun before they head out and spank their pay on getting wankered on their own choice of booze. That's part of what bothers me about this protest. Style and fun (for some) over substance.
> 
> Reclaim the Streets was subversive and fun. No one could complain anyone was being personally threatened.



People feeling threatened is one thing, people being threatened is another. I see no evidence of personal threats being directed at anyone.


----------



## Rushy (Oct 11, 2013)

Rushy said:


> Reclaim the Streets was subversive and fun. No one could complain anyone was being personally threatened.



I should add that it was also a very big part of the accident that convinced me to buy a flat in Brixton.


----------



## boohoo (Oct 11, 2013)

Dexter Deadwood said:


> It's a symbolic protest and ought to be a bit of fun, keep it real?



Bah - I now can't go out cos my other half wants to go down and take photos. It's REAL! And no fun as I miss going to birthday drinks.


----------



## boohoo (Oct 11, 2013)

Rushy said:


> Reclaim the Streets was subversive and fun. No one could complain anyone was being personally threatened.



Reclaim the streets also came with a lot of information about what it was all about. I would be happy to take my daughter to something like that again.


----------



## Winot (Oct 11, 2013)

Gramsci said:


> The well worn interiors of C&F are a fabrication. C&F is designed like that. In reality it is a high end luxury product. When I say product I do not just mean the champagne. I mean the whole brand. This has been thought out and marketed. The people who set up this business are not stupid. Its not really a French cafe its a fantasy reconstruction for the well off. Its a luxury brand ( there is logo for The Luxury Network on there website).
> 
> There website goes on about "authentic French flair" and "rustic".
> 
> This is not France and the connotations are different. You are right to say connotations. The design of there "bistro" invokes in the reviewers that this is an authentic bit of France in London. Its a marketing fantasy aimed at the well off.


 
Just like Café Rouge then. 

If you are talking about interior design then I agree with you.  However your earlier post:



Gramsci said:


> The ES piece says this is independent shop supplied by independent family producers. The emphasis according to there website is against mass production and for artisan production.
> One review I read said there shops are like going into a French village. There own website talks of "rustic" fare.
> The brand incorporates aspects of counter culture/ green politics . Such as opposing mass production. Supporting small is beautiful ethos.


focussed on their products not their design, and my reply was in relation to that.


----------



## gabi (Oct 11, 2013)

Rushy said:


> ​



Hang on, are you saying I said that? Where's that come from?


----------



## Chilavert (Oct 11, 2013)

ffsear said:


> What time is the England game?


Quick glass of bubbly and then home for the match?

7.45 I think....


----------



## rutabowa (Oct 11, 2013)

gabi said:


> Actually, the recently arrived to brixton people who are organising this protest against recently arrived to brixton people might be able to help you out...


at the risk of "flogging a dead donkey", the main one who is involved in this was born and bred in peckham. not brixton no, but fairly close by


----------



## Winot (Oct 11, 2013)

Brixton Hatter said:


> We have a long history of protest and resistance in Brixton and I reckon it's a fucking insult to all the locals and activists (some who use these boards, but many who don't) who've put their time and their lives into trying to make things better. In just the past few years locally we've had an active pensioners' anti-cuts group, loads of housing activists and protests, boycott workfare shutting down various retailers and protesting outside A4E on Brixton Road, local public sector strikes, UkUncut shutting down various banks and businesses, anti-cuts union activities, campaigns to save local libraries/the Rec/etc, anti-Foxtons stuff, people protesting planning applications and asset sell-offs, anti-eviction protests, a Thatcher death party....


 
All of those protests (with the possible exception of anti-Foxtons, and even that is arguable) are protests against the actual harmful policy, or an organisation which is putting into effect the harmful policy.

This is a protest aimed at a signifier.  That is the difference.



Brixton Hatter said:


> ...and yet somehow this protest is unfair on the champagne-swilling wealthy classes who are prepared to spend £50 on a few drinks....


 
£7.50 on a glass, £1 more than the Lounge.


----------



## Rushy (Oct 11, 2013)

gabi said:


> Hang on, are you saying I said that? Where's that come from?


No - you didn't say that. It's from the old thread you linked to.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 11, 2013)

Winot said:


> All of those protests (with the possible exception of anti-Foxtons, and even that is arguable) are protests against the actual harmful policy, or an organisation which is putting into effect the harmful policy.
> 
> This is a protest aimed at a signifier.  That is the difference.



A signifier of what? 

And why is aiming at signifiers so wrong? Are there no longer any connections between the signifier and the signified in post-modern brixton or something?


----------



## T & P (Oct 11, 2013)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> I tend to agree with Brixton Hatter tbh.
> 
> There's a fairly simplistic view of the gentrification process put out on here sometimes, where a cosy established community of poor folk are booted out by the evil wealthy. I think that's a massive simplification, the reasons for which have been gone over and over many times on here. But the actual effects of what's going on are very real and the ultimate message of all the 'but what about this?' sort of objections is mostly 'don't do anything.'
> 
> In all honesty this protest doesn't seem all that well thought out, it does look a bit like what it criticises, and it seems to be strongly associated with a band whose main characteristics are being fucking shit, and being complete wankers. But at least it's something, and maybe something will come out of it. Maybe not but who knows?


Anything that raises awareness of the important issues such as housing, rent increases etc is a good thing. This protest might well achieve that, whether directly or indirectly.

However if C&F were somehow to be driven out of business and out of Brixton by those campaigning against it, I struggle to think of a single good thing that would come out of it.


----------



## Winot (Oct 11, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> A signifier of what?
> 
> And why is aiming at signifiers so wrong? Are there no longer any connections between the signifier and the signified in post-modern brixton or something?


 
This person might me able to help you out:



butchersapron said:


> It's not 'only' a type of sparkling wine, it's also a signifier of a whole series of oppressive and unequal social relations, slap bang in the middle of some of those on the worst end of those inequalities.


----------



## gabi (Oct 11, 2013)

Rushy said:


> No - you didn't say that. It's from the old thread you linked to.



Oh ok. There's a treasure trove of stuff in that one actually.

I think none of us knew what would happen over the next ten years. The gentrification of the market is what it is, but that can be directly linked to the people sitting in the town hall who gave free rent to willing entrepreneurs  a few years back. That new bubbly place is a handy target but it began long before they moved in.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 11, 2013)

Winot said:


> This person might me able to help you out:


How does that help you tell me why it's wrong to aim at signifiers? How does that help you explain why there is no connection between signfiers and the signified? if anything it explains exactly why it is justified.


----------



## Winot (Oct 11, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> How does that help you tell me why it's wrong to aim at signifiers? How does that help you explain why there is no connection between signfiers and the signified? if anything it explains exactly why it is justified.


 
I was answering your first question.  We will have to disagree on the answer to your second - I think it's unfair/inconsistent/unhelpful to target individuals who (imo) have done nothing wrong (apart from a few marketing errors); you clearly think they are fair game.  I don't think we will ever see eye to eye or persuade each other on that.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 11, 2013)

Of course one of the ways in which these inequality producing social relations that you quoated me talking about attempt to justify themselves is by positing themselves as perfectly justified and just the way things are - that places like this monstrosity are in fact perfectly normal and to object to them would be madness. Challenging this notion is a step towards undermining that damaging acceptance. Challenging anti-social behaviour or hate-speech is good community minded behaviour - that effectively is what opposing these inequality reinforcing places and ideas is doing. Their very existence rather than any errors of marketing is the offence.


----------



## ffsear (Oct 11, 2013)

Chilavert said:


> Quick glass of bubbly and then home for the match?
> 
> 7.45 I think....



I'll be in the Hand in Hand,	no doubt my presence in the area will drive house prices through the roof.


----------



## cesare (Oct 11, 2013)

Winot said:


> All of those protests (with the possible exception of anti-Foxtons, and even that is arguable) are protests against the actual harmful policy, or an organisation which is putting into effect the harmful policy.
> 
> This is a protest aimed at a signifier.  That is the difference.
> 
> ...



You're not seriously trying to draw a comparison by anything other than price between the Lounge and this new place, are you?


----------



## gabi (Oct 11, 2013)

cesare said:


> You're not seriously trying to draw a comparison by anything other than price between the Lounge and this new place, are you?



The two threads are startlingly similar, given that it was more than ten years ago


----------



## Winot (Oct 11, 2013)

cesare said:


> You're not seriously trying to draw a comparison by anything other than price between the Lounge and this new place, are you?


 
Just a corrective to Brixton Hatter's comment.  Pointing out that you don't have to be one of the "champagne-swilling wealthy classes who are prepared to spend £50 on a few drinks" to drink at C+F.


----------



## cesare (Oct 11, 2013)

gabi said:


> The two threads are startlingly similar, given that it was more than ten years ago


Which goes to your point that gentrification of Brixton isn't new, and which I agree with. But the gradual gentrification process has accelerated substantially in the last ~four years for a number of reasons. This new place is a signifier of (amongst other things) accelerated change rather than just gradual gentrification.


----------



## cesare (Oct 11, 2013)

Winot said:


> Just a corrective to Brixton Hatter's comment.  Pointing out that you don't have to be one of the "champagne-swilling wealthy classes who are prepared to spend £50 on a few drinks" to drink at C+F.


This place is *dedicated* to champagne drinking - which differentiates it from any other drinking establishment in Brixton.


----------



## Winot (Oct 11, 2013)

cesare said:


> This place is *dedicated* to champagne drinking - which differentiates it from any other drinking establishment in Brixton.


 
True.  And that's a marketing error imo.


----------



## leanderman (Oct 11, 2013)

C+F is here because the make-up of Brixton has changed. 

And, as Rosamund Urwin points out in the Evening Standard, its customers are here only because they have been priced out of where they actually want to live. 

http://www.standard.co.uk/comment/r...w-fizz-bar-is-not-the-enemy-here-8871379.html

To avoid getting into trouble, I won't comment on her first name! In any case, she does, in her piece.


----------



## cesare (Oct 11, 2013)

Winot said:


> True.  And that's a marketing error imo.


They'd have difficulty marketing it as something other than dedicated to champagne and fromage, though


----------



## editor (Oct 11, 2013)

boohoo said:


> I think it's the protest itself by this Yuppies Out group that bugs me - nowt against the idea of getting rid of yuppies in the area (though how we define this might be an issue) or protesting but I don't know who they are or what their agenda is. Their facebook page is heavily stylised - creating a kind of 'Yuppies Out' Brand - there is no conversation/dialogue about supporting other campaigns. I think the only thing to come out of it is publicity for the champagne place, publicity for Yuppies Out and for Brixton Buzz who have written lots about it.
> 
> Real impact for people - not alot.


That's not necessarily true at all.

Not all protests should be judged on whether they act as a catalyst for any immediate real world changes or not - what some can do is to raise awareness around an issue and spark a debate. And this has most certainly done that.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 11, 2013)

Rushy said:


> It's particularly disappointing to see individuals who sought public support for the aggressive _*manner *_in which Carlton Mansions was being handled, supporting this kind of bullying of one shop. Pretending that a campaign with people talking about throwing bricks through a particular shop's windows and calling for death to Yuppie scum (whoever they might be) is peaceful is simply denial.


i think theres a huge difference between heavily armed cops evicting people by force and a guitar band playing a gig at a distance from the shop and eating dairylea - all sounds pretty good natured and tongue in cheek to me. No yuppies will be killed and id be very surprised if any windows are broken - but even a broken window is incomparable to forced eviction.  At most this will be nonviolent indignation Id imagine. Though i take your point about singling them out, but Champagne and French Cheese seems to be the last taboo, even if other swanky spots in brixton aren't much better.



Rushy said:


> Yes - because of the "cool" anti-branding of Yuppies Out I am sure it will attract a lot of people just looking for a bit of *edgy fun before they head out and spank their pay*


do any of FWF have jobs?? I very much doubt it! Where are their parents, thats what i want to know. Outraged from tunbridge wells


----------



## editor (Oct 11, 2013)

boohoo said:


> Reclaim the streets also came with a lot of information about what it was all about. I would be happy to take my daughter to something like that again.


How about Stop The City? Mayday?


----------



## editor (Oct 11, 2013)

T & P said:


> However if C&F were somehow to be driven out of business and out of Brixton by those campaigning against it, I struggle to think of a single good thing that would come out of it.


That's _hugely_ unlikely to happen.


----------



## Dan U (Oct 11, 2013)

editor said:


> That's _hugely_ unlikely to happen.



given this will all be forgotten about by the middle of next week, i agree.

(by all i mean this protest against this shop, it will move on to the next thing)


----------



## editor (Oct 11, 2013)

gabi said:


> Oh, and here's the marketing materials I was referring to.
> 
> http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...hip-and-trendy-people.2204/page-2#post-139319
> 
> Arguably that place was one of the pioneers of brixton's latest wave of gentrification.


Man oh man, all that scraping the barrel is giving me a headache!

I did a small website for my friend. TEN YEARS AGO.  And it certainly wasn't an "upmarket bar" when it opened.


----------



## cesare (Oct 11, 2013)

On a slight digression, does anyone know anything about the odour implications? A mate of mine ran a business upstairs from the cheese shop in Jermyn Street and the whole place honked.


----------



## editor (Oct 11, 2013)

Back to the protest, I wouldn't be surprised if the police try and close it down. Which might prove entertaining, given the fluid nature of the action.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 11, 2013)

editor said:


> Back to the protest, I wouldn't be surprised if the police try and close it down. Which might prove entertaining, given the *fluid nature* of the action.


you mean the white ace?

when is this happening anyhow? is it tuesday or today?


----------



## gabi (Oct 11, 2013)

editor said:


> Man oh man, all that scraping the barrel is giving me a headache!
> 
> I did a small website for my friend. TEN YEARS AGO.  And it certainly wasn't an "upmarket bar" when it opened.



Read the title of the thread I linked to ffs.


----------



## aurora green (Oct 11, 2013)

Today at 5pm!


----------



## ska invita (Oct 11, 2013)

aurora green said:


> Today at 5pm!


i'll be at work.


and i dont live in brixton!


----------



## editor (Oct 11, 2013)

ska invita said:


> i'll be at work.
> 
> 
> and i dont live in brixton!


Neither do the people who own Champagne & Fromage! Or most of their customers, most likely!


----------



## gabi (Oct 11, 2013)

ska invita said:


> i'll be at work.



Yuppie scum


----------



## ska invita (Oct 11, 2013)

gabi said:


> Yuppie scum


wage slave


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 11, 2013)

leanderman said:


> C+F, because it is so ridiculous, is a ridiculously easy target.
> 
> But as Gabi has pointed out, if protest is the thing, Salon, Canon, Market Row Wines and the new wine bar could just as easily be targeted.
> 
> And, again, it seems ok for the Albert to sell champagne but not anyone else.


your critical faculties need a refresh if you're agreeing with gabi


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 11, 2013)

editor said:


> Back to the protest, I wouldn't be surprised if the police try and close it down. Which might prove entertaining, given the fluid nature of the action.


----------



## snowy_again (Oct 11, 2013)

I've just tried to read the Yuppies Out facebook page. I'm starting to believe it's just all an elaborate hoax.


----------



## editor (Oct 11, 2013)

snowy_again said:


> I've just tried to read the Yuppies Out facebook page. I'm starting to believe it's just all an elaborate hoax.


Like the Thatcher party, yeah?


----------



## T & P (Oct 11, 2013)

snowy_again said:


> I've just tried to read the Yuppies Out facebook page. I'm starting to believe it's just all an elaborate hoax.


The smaller picture in their home page does not make any sense. Are those people having a meal at Honest Burgers members of Yuppies Out, or is the suggestion that the subjects in the image are yuppies? Because they couldn't look any less like yuppies to me


----------



## snowy_again (Oct 11, 2013)

editor said:


> Like the Thatcher party, yeah?



No, just the WHOLE CAPS LOCK ON! YOU WILL BE PURGED! threats to anyone who cares to engage them in any sort of debate. 

It's sort of the mirror equivalent to UKIP isn't it?


----------



## editor (Oct 11, 2013)

snowy_again said:


> No, just the WHOLE CAPS LOCK ON! YOU WILL BE PURGED! threats to anyone who cares to engage them in any sort of debate.
> 
> It's sort of the mirror equivalent to UKIP isn't it?


I wish I knew what you were going on about.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 11, 2013)

snowy_again said:


> It's sort of the mirror equivalent to UKIP isn't it?


 
More a Beano  version of Class War I think


----------



## snowy_again (Oct 11, 2013)

Haha, you haven't noticed that all of their posts there are in capitals then? You seem to be on their page a lot. Any questioning of the blunt approach to what they seem to want to do is responded by them not in a debate but in THREATS MADE IN CAPITAL LETTERS. 

And lots of their comments re. newcomers moving in to Brixton, are in essence the same as the UKIP manifesto on immigration.


----------



## prunus (Oct 11, 2013)

gaijingirl said:


> ah.. that's a shame.  I think I probably know the shop in E. Dulwich that sells it and obviously know Borough Market.  Very unlikely to go to either again any time soon.  Shame.  I thought people would pop up and say it's sold all over the place now.  It was very lovely.  But still - good to know, I might add it to my Christmas list.



You can get aged gouda complete with delicious crunchy bits in Leadenhall Market in the City, and at the cheese shop on Jermyn Street too.


----------



## Chilavert (Oct 11, 2013)

Some of the comments on that Facebook page.....


----------



## Rushy (Oct 11, 2013)

cesare said:


> On a slight digression, does anyone know anything about the odour implications? A mate of mine ran a business upstairs from the cheese shop in Jermyn Street and the whole place honked.


Can't be worse than the smell from the fish shop which Eco survived next to for years! 
(Although that did stop me eating there a couple of times)


----------



## DJWrongspeed (Oct 11, 2013)

> "Odour implications"





> "Direct Indignation"


this is all getting bonkerz


----------



## T & P (Oct 11, 2013)

"DESTROY VEGAN CUPCAKES FROM HELL!" is priceless


----------



## cesare (Oct 11, 2013)

Rushy said:


> Can't be worse than the smell from the fish shop which Eco survived next to for years!
> (Although that did stop me eating there a couple of times)


Aye, well to be fair the cheese shop on Jermyn Street has been there for decades so plenty of time to build up cheese odour seeped into the brickwork


----------



## rutabowa (Oct 11, 2013)

T & P said:


> "DESTROY VEGAN CUPCAKES FROM HELL!" is priceless


The revolution will not be po-faced.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Oct 11, 2013)

So who's actually going to this yuppies out thing then?


----------



## ska invita (Oct 11, 2013)

DJWrongspeed said:


> this is all getting bonkerz


wont somebody think of the children smell!

i


----------



## cesare (Oct 11, 2013)

ska invita said:


> wont somebody think of the children smell!
> 
> i


Never underestimate the smell of chaumes in an enclosed space


----------



## ska invita (Oct 11, 2013)

cesare said:


> Never underestimate the smell of chaumes in an enclosed space


i applied for a job at the cheese shop in covent garden about 15 years ago
interview went "whats your favourite cheese" - er stilton? (not that into cheese, but that was the correct answer)
"can you handle the stink of cheese all day long" - yes i love it (more lies)
it does stink right up the street its true


----------



## cesare (Oct 11, 2013)

ska invita said:


> i applied for a job at the cheese shop in covent garden about 15 years ago
> interview went "whats your favourite cheese" - er stilton? (not that into cheese, but that was the correct answer)
> "can you handle the stink of cheese all day long" - yes i love it (more lies)
> it does stink right up the street its true


----------



## teuchter (Oct 11, 2013)

It amuses me muchly seeing people taking the YUPPIES OUT group seriously, and typing out their earnest thoughts about them and their capital letters. Whether on here or elsewhere.


----------



## Chilavert (Oct 11, 2013)

MrsDarlingsKiss said:


> So who's actually going to this yuppies out thing then?


Having had a look at the Facebook page I'm more tempted to head to Champers and Cheesey-pops for a couple of glasses of the demon fizz, but in reality I'm heading to a pub to watch the football.


----------



## Rushy (Oct 11, 2013)

MrsDarlingsKiss said:


> So who's actually going to this yuppies out thing then?


((It's raining))


----------



## T & P (Oct 11, 2013)

This thread is now *1,000 posts old.*

Deserves a little celebration, no?


----------



## ska invita (Oct 11, 2013)

Rushy said:


> ((It's raining))


isnt the market covered?


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## Rushy (Oct 11, 2013)

ska invita said:


> isnt the market covered?



Yes. But the protest is planned to be outside on public land - not on private property from which they can be excluded.


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## ska invita (Oct 11, 2013)

Rushy said:


> Yes. But the protest is planned to be outside on public land - not on private property from which they can be excluded.


you cant stop people from going inside the market though - how else can we get our bubble on (or whatever the fuck it is)??


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## Rushy (Oct 11, 2013)

ska invita said:


> you cant stop people from going inside the market though - how else can we get our bubble on (or whatever the fuck it is)??


The police or the owners can close the whole place down like they did last year during Splash. Making every small business owner suffer. I appreciate that some will think that's just super.


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## editor (Oct 11, 2013)

They're nearly ready to open!






Rrrrustic!

http://www.brixtonbuzz.com/2013/10/...yuppies-out-street-party-planned-for-tonight/


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## rutabowa (Oct 11, 2013)

Rushy said:


> The police or the owners can close the whole place down like they did last year during Splash. Making every small business owner suffer. I appreciate that some will think that's just super.


well check out mr doom and gloom.


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## editor (Oct 11, 2013)

I imagine the people who will ultimately suffer most from this place opening is the traditional traders who will continue to be priced out of their units, and the locals who frequented their shops.


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## ska invita (Oct 11, 2013)

Rushy said:


> The police or the owners can close the whole place down like they did last year during Splash. Making every small business owner suffer. I appreciate that some will think that's just super.


what kind of action would it take to close it down? Peaceful dairylea eating?
if that happens you cant blame peaceful protesters - its just the insanity of private public spaces and their management.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 11, 2013)

editor said:


> They're nearly ready to open!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
i thought it was a snazzy champagne bar! that looks like a shop to me


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## Nanker Phelge (Oct 11, 2013)

5pm! Don't these protesting people have jobs!?!


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## Rushy (Oct 11, 2013)

ska invita said:


> i think theres a huge difference between heavily armed cops evicting people by force and a guitar band playing a gig at a distance from the shop and eating dairylea - all sounds pretty good natured and tongue in cheek to me. No yuppies will be killed and id be very surprised if any windows are broken - but even a broken window is incomparable to forced eviction.  At most this will be nonviolent indignation Id imagine. Though i take your point about singling them out, but Champagne and French Cheese seems to be the last taboo, even if other swanky spots in brixton aren't much better.



But that's not what happened or what people were objecting to in relation to Carlton Mansions.

The co-op appeared to be working with the council towards a peaceful, planned departure some time 1-2yrs away. Then they were landed with the fire safety report and the swift injunction.  Throughout the court hearings the council and their lawyers were accused of being aggressive and ruthless. The coop called "foul" and people agreed. The council appeared to be acting deceptively and were indifferent as to the personal suffering they were causing. Even though no eviction took place, they were being aggressive bullies and this galvanised support from all quarters including people with a wide range of views of short life and squatting. I was pleased to be a small part of the voice which would not stand for that.

Unfortunately, some of those who called foul seem to think threats and bullying are fine - just as long as they aren't targeted at them.


----------



## han (Oct 11, 2013)

Nanker Phelge said:
			
		

> 5pm! Don't these protesting people have jobs!?!



Some of us have to work for a living..!


----------



## Rushy (Oct 11, 2013)

ska invita said:


> what kind of action would it take to close it down? Peaceful dairylea eating?
> if that happens you cant blame peaceful protesters - its just the insanity of private public spaces and their management.


Like I said, it's organised for outside, not in the market. You asked how people could be stopped from going inside. The answer I gave was that the place could be easily closed down if necessary as has happened in the past. I'm not expressing opinion there.

As for what kind of action could close it down - last time it was closed down based on no action - just safety concerns.


----------



## Chilavert (Oct 11, 2013)

editor said:


> They're nearly ready to open!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 I assume that's an Apple laptop?


----------



## cesare (Oct 11, 2013)

ska invita said:


> i thought it was a snazzy champagne bar! that looks like a shop to me


Me too.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 11, 2013)

what happened to this:


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## ska invita (Oct 11, 2013)

...ah, the bar is at the other end i think, thats the shop end


----------



## ffsear (Oct 11, 2013)

basically a protest against an off licence!


----------



## han (Oct 11, 2013)

God, I hope this doesn't turn into Brixton Riots Mk II. Or a food fight. Dairylea versus Camembert.


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## editor (Oct 11, 2013)

Have to say the staff didn't look particularly threatened, bullied or concerned about anything much at all when I passed the place.

This is nothing more than a symbolic gesture to say that not everyone enjoys seeing this kind of lifestyle being flaunted in an area where real social deprivation exists.

What will it achieve? Probably nothing more than a discussion and a debate. It might also perhaps send a message to relevant parties that this is a discussion that _needs to be had_, and while I'm sure some people will simply love visiting the Village and grazing on fromage and champers, massive social inequality exists in the area, some of it a mere stroll across the road.


----------



## teuchter (Oct 11, 2013)

Chilavert said:


> I assume that's an Apple laptop?


Pomme


----------



## editor (Oct 11, 2013)

Chilavert said:


> I assume that's an Apple laptop?


Of course.


----------



## cesare (Oct 11, 2013)

teuchter said:


> Pomme


Pomme and Pommery bar.


----------



## T & P (Oct 11, 2013)

ska invita said:


> what happened to this:


 I think that illustration merits a b3ta-style image challenge. Ladies and gentlemen, start your Photoshops...


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 11, 2013)

Isn't there already a posh wine, cheese and meat shop in the other bit of the market?


----------



## rutabowa (Oct 11, 2013)

editor said:


> What will it achieve? Probably nothing more than a discussion and a debate.


SUCCESS!


----------



## teuchter (Oct 11, 2013)

editor said:


> This is nothing more than a symbolic gesture to say that not everyone enjoys seeing this kind of lifestyle being flaunted in an area where real social deprivation exists.



I think you're on quite wobbly ground once you start implying that this lifestyle should only be "flaunted" in certain areas.


----------



## editor (Oct 11, 2013)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Isn't there already a posh wine, cheese and meat shop in the other bit of the market?


Yes.


----------



## Chilavert (Oct 11, 2013)

teuchter said:


> Pomme


Touche.


----------



## editor (Oct 11, 2013)

teuchter said:


> I think you're on quite wobbly ground once you start implying that this lifestyle should only be "flaunted" in certain areas.


I don't.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 11, 2013)

editor said:


> Yes.



Thought so.


----------



## editor (Oct 11, 2013)




----------



## ska invita (Oct 11, 2013)

cesare said:


> Pomme and Pommery bar.


Coke et Frottage


----------



## han (Oct 11, 2013)

I don't think it should be flaunted anywhere. How do shops flaunt a lifestyle anyway? What an odd idea.


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## teuchter (Oct 11, 2013)

editor said:


> I don't.


If we keep it somewhere where the poor people can't see it, it'll all be fine.

(And vice versa. Hooray for ghettoisation.)


----------



## editor (Oct 11, 2013)

teuchter said:


> If we keep it somewhere where the poor people can't see it, it'll all be fine.
> 
> (And vice versa. Hooray for ghettoisation.)


Can't be arsed with your simplistic, twisting, argumentative-for-the-sake-of-it nonsense today, sorry. 

Bye! HAND.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 11, 2013)

It doesn't look flashy at all. It will have people sat at small tables drinking Champagne and eating cheese. The cheese will no doubt be very nice and very pricey, but it's hardly rubbing people's noses in the dirt to sit in public eating cheese. 

Is it the name that's getting people's hackles raised? It is a very silly name.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Oct 11, 2013)

ska invita said:


> ...ah, the bar is at the other end i think, thats the shop end


 
So there are two?


----------



## editor (Oct 11, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> 'The cheese will no doubt be very nice and very pricey, but it's hardly rubbing people's noses in the dirt to sit in public eating cheese.


You forgot the champagne.


----------



## han (Oct 11, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:
			
		

> Is it the name that's getting people's hackles raised? It is a very silly name.



It's got to be the name. If it was called Cheesebubble, or Bubblecheese, or House of Cheese, I doubt there would've been this fuss, even if it was just cheese and champagne on the menu. It's just an incredibly wanky name which was bound to provoke scorn and anger.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 11, 2013)

editor said:


> You forgot the champagne.


Ah yes. Only a complete cunt would drink Champagne in public. 

Would it be different if they also sold beer?


----------



## Badgers (Oct 11, 2013)

PICS PICS PICS


----------



## rutabowa (Oct 11, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> It doesn't look flashy at all.


the protest has never been about whether their interior designers are tasteful or not.


----------



## editor (Oct 11, 2013)

han said:


> It's got to be the name. If it was called Cheesebubble, or Bubblecheese, or House of Cheese, I doubt there would've been this fuss, even if it was just cheese and champagne on the menu. It's just an incredibly wanky name which was bound to provoke scorn and anger.


I think this post summed it up very well indeed:


spanglechick said:


> Champagne and fromage is neatly symbolic.   It may not be, per se, particularly worse than any of the other "mid-range luxury" establishments colonising the village, but there is a symbolism to champagne as the ultimate libation of the rich, which makes the inequality and contrast impossible to ignore for lots of people.   Then the word "fromage" seems a bit pretentious, because it's French and we've a perfectly good English word for it (and easily as good british cheeses, for that matter)...  The pretentiousness invites attention and then contempt, and galvanises people to protest.
> 
> I like cheese and fizzy wine, but I totally get why these guys are fair target.


----------



## han (Oct 11, 2013)

Thanks Editor, yes, I saw that post before and think it sums the situation up perfectly.


----------



## Chilavert (Oct 11, 2013)

editor said:


> View attachment 41756


So the launch has a nautical theme, or is it the anti- launch party?

This has all got _so _confusing.


----------



## leanderman (Oct 11, 2013)

editor said:


> I think this post summed it up very well indeed:



It's a good and intelligent comment. But I am not sure it is a balanced summing-up.


----------



## T & P (Oct 11, 2013)

Nobody has mentioned how the various Village resident cats will react to the new arrival, but given the capitalist nature of our feline friends, I think they'll become frequent visitors


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## han (Oct 11, 2013)

I think the way the protest has been publicised has been totally misguided, but I am sympathetic to the sentiment behind it. 

I just think the real demons we should be focussing on are the chains and the loan sharks, these are things that really destroy communities and livelihoods, all round the country.


----------



## Dexter Deadwood (Oct 11, 2013)

T & P said:


> Nobody has mentioned how the various Village resident cats will react to the new arrival, but given the capitalist nature of our feline friends, I think they'll become frequent visitors



Will they become fat cats?


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## T & P (Oct 11, 2013)

editor said:


> I think this post summed it up very well indeed:





leanderman said:


> It's a good and intelligent comment. But I am not sure it is a balanced summing-up.



Actually, on a serious note Ed, this is a good point. I susppose Brixton Buzz does not claim to be impartial and has no obligation to be so, but for the sake of balance perhaps it wouldn't be a bad thing if you were to add a post offering the opposing view...


----------



## han (Oct 11, 2013)

To be honest I feel a bit sorry for these Champagne and Fromage people. So naive, opening a shop with a name like that in somewhere like Brixton. I doubt they're evil people. 

Sainsburys and Tescos on the other hand, are.


----------



## gabi (Oct 11, 2013)

editor. Seriously.

Can you look at your comments on the older thread about the lounge and tally them up with your comments on this one? They're hilariously fucking contradictory.

What's changed?


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Oct 11, 2013)

gabi said:


> editor. Seriously.
> 
> Can you look at your comments on the older thread about the lounge and tally them up with your comments on this one? They're hilariously fucking contradictory.
> 
> What's changed?


 
10 years?

I'll hold my hands up to being a massive hypocrite for having different views now to 10 years ago. I don't know on what exactly but I'm sure they're there somewhere. Terrible.


----------



## Rushy (Oct 11, 2013)

han said:


> ... Cheesebubble, or Bubblecheese, or House of Cheese, ...


Sorry but the first two just make me feel queasy.
Didn't someone say a shop called WooWoo is opening up too? WooWoo! There is no excuse for that unless you sell train sets.


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## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Oct 11, 2013)

All of those names sound like something you'd find on Urban Dictionary. Or in teenage conversations just after 'wolfbagging.'


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## Rushy (Oct 11, 2013)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> All of those names sound like something you'd find on Urban Dictionary. Or in teenage conversations just after 'wolfbagging.'


I was going to say that the first two immediately made me think of the symptoms of a nasty case of VD. But then I thought it might just be me...


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## littlebabyjesus (Oct 11, 2013)

The name is pretentious, and the refusal to also sell beer is also pretentious - it would be easy enough for them to stock a beer, too. 

But isn't this protest a wee bit of an overreaction? Pretty unpleasant for the people working there, too, no?


----------



## Dexter Deadwood (Oct 11, 2013)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> All of those names sound like something you'd find on Urban Dictionary. Or in teenage conversations just after 'wolfbagging.'



I had to Google "wolfbagging."


----------



## Chilavert (Oct 11, 2013)

Dexter Deadwood said:


> I had to Google "wolfbagging."


Is it work safe?


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Oct 11, 2013)

Dexter Deadwood said:


> I had to Google "wolfbagging."


 
And now you can never unknow it.


----------



## Dexter Deadwood (Oct 11, 2013)

Chilavert said:


> Is it work safe?



Depends where you work, i'd wait until you get home.


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## fredfelt (Oct 11, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> The name is pretentious, and the refusal to also sell beer is also pretentious - it would be easy enough for them to stock a beer, too.
> 
> But isn't this protest a wee bit of an overreaction? Pretty unpleasant for the people working there, too, no?



I would have thought that they could have at least put sparkling wine on the menu to appease the distractors.


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## ska invita (Oct 11, 2013)

gabi said:


> editor. Seriously.
> 
> Can you look at your comments on the older thread about the lounge and tally them up with your comments on this one? They're hilariously fucking contradictory.
> 
> What's changed?


what post? i cant see anything contradictory there, other than generally being pro that particular bar. Or is that the problem for you? 
Must admit ive never felt comfortable to go in there or meet anyone there, but there you go


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## spanglechick (Oct 11, 2013)

leanderman said:


> It's a good and intelligent comment. But I am not sure it is a balanced summing-up.


It was more of a "why are people protesting?" than a summation.  

Tbh, I won't be attending.  I get why it's being done and I'm enormously sympathetic to the motivation behind 'yuppies out' ... But I think there are some problems of ideology which they are happy to ignore (the "pull up the drawbridge" thing is too big a sticking point for me to make me happy to protest directly about the choices about individuals and small businesses).

I've also reservations about the mechanics of the protest: most particularly the fact that I work from 8.15 til at least 6.15 and can't be there for that reason. Surely a problem for most people: yuppies and working class.  So if huge numbers of those sympathetic can't attend and huge numbers of those you would hope to persuade or otherwise influence ALSO won't be there, then what is the point?


But then I absolutely and freely concede that apart from TU marches I'm not someone who makes time for protest: I can barely keep my life hanging together as it is.  

I might have reservations, but I've no moral high ground.  All power to those who do.


----------



## Ninjaprints (Oct 11, 2013)

can't we get a fucking lager and pie shop?


----------



## fredfelt (Oct 11, 2013)

Ninjaprints said:


> can't we get a fucking lager and pie shop?



With the commercial rents what they are it would have to be a fucking artisian larger and shitting organic pie shop


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 11, 2013)

fredfelt said:


> With the commercial rents what they are it would have to be a fucking artisian larger and shitting organic pie shop


And this is the nub of the problem and the thing to protest against. Greenwich shopping centre was ruined a few years ago by a spike in rents that drove out many of the smaller businesses. Who owns the shopping centre in Brixton, and what criteria are used to decide the rents?


----------



## Thimble Queen (Oct 11, 2013)

Ninjaprints said:


> can't we get a fucking lager and pie shop?



Albert?


----------



## bosie (Oct 11, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> There's a process. It happened in Shoreditch, Hoxton, it's now even starting to happen in Clapton and Homerton, Hackney Wick, all kinds of places that a few years ago you would have found it hard to imagine as places like that. Artists and others with not much money move to a place because it's cheap but relatively central. They do stuff - put on shows, club nights, etc - that brings others into the area, and the area becomes known as somewhere where _stuff happens_. And other people with a lot more money start wanting to move to the places where stuff happens. Eventually, the kind of people who made the place in the first place can no longer afford to live there, and the nature of the stuff that is happening there changes, becomes safer, more corporate.





It's different in London now though. Before the artists were a real mixture of people. Most of the young 'artists' nowadays though are the son's and daughters of people with money. They just basically pretend they don't have any themselves - when really they are just a phone call to Berkshire away from their rent being paid. Working class kids don't open pop up interactive art galleries in old shops in London. They can't afford to. They get proper jobs.

These 'artists' colonise an area and eventually the less 'cool' people - the people who studied economics rather than drama at their university - follow them and make the area corporate and boring. Along with the older 'artists' who now fed up of living in a hovel decide to hook up with their old venture capitalist mate from Bath University and open a 'street food' restaurant inspired by their gap yah travels, expand into a small to medium sized chain and make some money before they head back to Berkshire to start a family and raise a few more 'artists' of their own.


----------



## han (Oct 11, 2013)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:
			
		

> And now you can never unknow it.



I just looked it up. Blimey  
I just have one question. 
Why bacon?


----------



## Winot (Oct 11, 2013)

han said:


> It's got to be the name. If it was called ... Bubblecheese ... I doubt there would've been this fuss.


 
Although they might then have annoyed the people running Bubbledogs.


----------



## Rushy (Oct 11, 2013)

han said:


> I just looked it up. Blimey
> I just have one question.
> Why bacon?


Fromage falls off the string.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 11, 2013)

han said:


> I just looked it up. Blimey
> I just have one question.
> Why bacon?


Because chicken, beef and lamb don't come with built-in rind?


----------



## rutabowa (Oct 11, 2013)

bosie said:


> It's different in London now though. Before the artists were a real mixture of people. Most of the young 'artists' nowadays though are the son's and daughters of people with money. They just basically pretend they don't have any themselves - when really they are just a phone call to Berkshire away from their rent being paid. Working class kids don't open pop up interactive art galleries in old shops in London. They can't afford to. They get proper jobs.
> 
> These 'artists' colonise an area and eventually the less 'cool' people - the people who studied economics rather than drama at their university - follow them and make the area corporate and boring. Along with the older 'artists' who now fed up of living in a hovel decide to hook up with their old venture capitalist mate from Bath University and open a 'street food' restaurant inspired by their gap yah travels, expand into a small to medium sized chain and make some money before they head back to Berkshire to start a family and raise a few more 'artists' of their own.


Where do you fit into this tragic comedy that you describe?


----------



## Rushy (Oct 11, 2013)

Winot said:


> Although they might then have annoyed the people running Bubbledogs.


A friend wanted to meet there a few months ago - Charlotte Street. The queue must have been 40 or 50 long. Never saw inside.

I don't get all this queuing for for food in a restaurant. Drove past a similar queue waiting for breakfast at The Breakfast Club the other day. Why!?


----------



## ska invita (Oct 11, 2013)

bosie said:


> Working class kids don't open pop up interactive art galleries in old shops in London. They can't afford to. They get proper jobs.


Funnily enough i went to just that a couple of weeks back - a bunch of local Hackney 6th form kids rented a gallery space next to Hoxton overground and put on an exhibition of their work. The gallery was empty though and they sat outside it smoking fags. The art wasn't bad at all. Not conceptional, some photos and drawings mainly.

But generally you are right of course.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 11, 2013)

The demise of the squat has limited opportunities.


----------



## innit (Oct 11, 2013)

bosie said:


> It's different in London now though. Before the artists were a real mixture of people. Most of the young 'artists' nowadays though are the son's and daughters of people with money. They just basically pretend they don't have any themselves - when really they are just a phone call to Berkshire away from their rent being paid. Working class kids don't open pop up interactive art galleries in old shops in London. They can't afford to. They get proper jobs.
> 
> These 'artists' colonise an area and eventually the less 'cool' people - the people who studied economics rather than drama at their university - follow them and make the area corporate and boring. Along with the older 'artists' who now fed up of living in a hovel decide to hook up with their old venture capitalist mate from Bath University and open a 'street food' restaurant inspired by their gap yah travels, expand into a small to medium sized chain and make some money before they head back to Berkshire to start a family and raise a few more 'artists' of their own.


A friend of a friend is a working class girl and has opened her own gallery. Guess she didn't get the memo. 

I don't know how she affords it.


----------



## leanderman (Oct 11, 2013)

Brilliant by Bosie.


----------



## Manter (Oct 11, 2013)

Dexter Deadwood said:


> I had to Google "wolfbagging."


Um. Me too. 

Is that real??!!


----------



## T & P (Oct 11, 2013)

Manter said:


> Um. Me too.
> 
> Is that real??!!


I guess at least it's safer than a donkey punch...


----------



## Winot (Oct 11, 2013)

Rushy said:


> A friend wanted to meet there a few months ago - Charlotte Street. The queue must have been 40 or 50 long. Never saw inside.
> 
> I don't get all this queuing for for food in a restaurant. Drove past a similar queue waiting for breakfast at The Breakfast Club the other day. Why!?



Agreed, but maybe we're just old. Have waited for excellent food eg Anchor & Hope in the Cut, but at the bar. Honest Burgers' queue app is a good solution.


----------



## Manter (Oct 11, 2013)

T & P said:


> I guess at least it's safer than a donkey punch...


oh good, something else for me to google

e2a done it. hmm


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Oct 11, 2013)

T & P said:


> I guess at least it's safer than a donkey punch...


 
That one was always in there.

See also munging, sounding, felching and the Dirty Sanchez.


ETA: This is like being 15 again. I thought everyone had heard these by now. </Beavis>


----------



## Nedrop (Oct 11, 2013)

This is a blessing in disguise. Champagne & Fromage has had priceless coverage (be it good or bad) across national newspapers that it would otherwise of not had. Their clientele will not care for the frustrations voiced by the 'Yuppies Out' gang one bit


----------



## han (Oct 11, 2013)

Winot said:
			
		

> Agreed, but maybe we're just old. Have waited for excellent food eg Anchor & Hope in the Cut, but at the bar. Honest Burgers' queue app is a good solution.



Honest Burgers have a queue app?!


----------



## aussw9 (Oct 11, 2013)

Winot said:


> Honest Burgers' queue app is a good solution.



Whats this app?

I can wait a bit, but I dont understand the breakfast clubs queue as their food isnt anything special.


----------



## Manter (Oct 11, 2013)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> That one was always in there.
> 
> See also munging, sounding, felching and the Dirty Sanchez.
> 
> ...


I know those   that makes me feel better


----------



## Manter (Oct 11, 2013)

Winot said:


> Agreed, but maybe we're just old. Have waited for excellent food eg Anchor & Hope in the Cut, but at the bar. Honest Burgers' queue app is a good solution.


what app??


----------



## Rushy (Oct 11, 2013)

Winot said:


> Agreed, but maybe we're just old. Have waited for excellent food eg Anchor & Hope in the Cut, but at the bar. Honest Burgers' queue app is a good solution.


Er, less of that please granddad.

I've never been one for queues. By the time I got in anywhere I'd be too pissed off. I always liked that about going out in Brixton. 

Walked past the queue to Electric Social last Friday. That must have been more than 150!


----------



## Rushy (Oct 11, 2013)

Manter said:


> what app??


They text you when your table is ready so you can bugger off and join a protest whilst you are waiting.


----------



## Manter (Oct 11, 2013)

Rushy said:


> They text you when your table is ready so you can bugger off and join a protest whilst you are waiting.


like those vibrating pager things you used to get given in places like TGI Fridays?  But a cool version... 

Good idea


----------



## fredfelt (Oct 11, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> And this is the nub of the problem and the thing to protest against. Greenwich shopping centre was ruined a few years ago by a spike in rents that drove out many of the smaller businesses. Who owns the shopping centre in Brixton, and what criteria are used to decide the rents?



The land owners have it all wrapped up.  Commercial leases usually have upward only rent reviews.  The lease holder is at the end of a long chain of privilege that you could argue goes way back to William the Conquer.  Bloody French.


----------



## editor (Oct 11, 2013)

han said:


> I just think the real demons we should be focussing on are the chains and the loan sharks, these are things that really destroy communities and livelihoods, all round the country.


There's lots of other battles to be had - and perhaps some of the people attending this protest are every bit as involved in some of them too - but that shouldn't be used as a stick to beat down or belittle this action (which some people have done, including that idiot from the Standard)


----------



## editor (Oct 11, 2013)

T & P said:


> Actually, on a serious note Ed, this is a good point. I susppose Brixton Buzz does not claim to be impartial and has no obligation to be so, but for the sake of balance perhaps it wouldn't be a bad thing if you were to add a post offering the opposing view...


There's a comment box below the article and people are free to add any comments they like (and many have added opposing views to the previous post).

Besides, it's not like there's a shortage of media outlets offering their version of a 'balanced' view.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 11, 2013)

Winot said:


> . Honest Burgers' queue app is a good solution.


i find this post very funny


----------



## editor (Oct 11, 2013)

Nedrop said:


> This is a blessing in disguise. Champagne & Fromage has had priceless coverage (be it good or bad) across national newspapers that it would otherwise of not had. Their clientele will not care for the frustrations voiced by the 'Yuppies Out' gang one bit


What national newspapers?


----------



## bosie (Oct 11, 2013)

rutabowa said:


> Where do you fit into this tragic comedy that you describe?


 
I don't really fit into it at all to be honest. I am the son of a Irish dinner lady and a Jamaican mechanic from Croydon (which I suppose one could argue is in Surrey ), who works in a local authority social services department (not Lambeth) and who has had a proper job since I was 16 and escaped to Brixton for over 10 years. I am about the least arty person I know and I don't know any venture capitalists.


----------



## leanderman (Oct 11, 2013)

Manter said:


> like those vibrating pager things you used to get given in places like TGI Fridays?  But a cool version...
> 
> Good idea



And, in the likely event of you tiring of the wait, there is a button on the app to 'EXIT QUEUE'


----------



## Winot (Oct 11, 2013)

ska invita said:


> i find this post very funny



One of those sentences which would make no sense to a time traveller from 10 years ago.


----------



## rutabowa (Oct 11, 2013)

bosie said:


> I don't really fit into it at all to be honest. I am the son of a Irish dinner lady and a Jamaican mechanic from Croydon (which I suppose one could argue is in Surrey ), who works in a local authority social services department (not Lambeth) and who has had a proper job since I was 16 and escaped to Brixton for over 10 years. I am about the least arty person I know and I don't know any venture capitalists.


It was a pretty neat summing up of gentrification that you did (in yr first post), but where do you get yr information from? i mean, what you said is obviously the received wisdom of what is going on, the cliche, but have you first-hand experience that it actually is what is going on? You might well do i dunno... i don't necessarily disagree. it just sounded a bit too neat.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 11, 2013)

fredfelt said:


> The land owners have it all wrapped up.  Commercial leases usually have upward only rent reviews.  The lease holder is at the end of a long chain of privilege that you could argue goes way back to William the Conquer.  Bloody French.


Mate of mine used to work at a reptile shop in Camden. The shop owner died recently and he toyed with the idea of trying to take it over. £30k a year rent - he worked it out that he might just make it work. Except that was the old rent. The solicitor next door, which owns the building is now asking for £70k a year - and it's a small place. No chance of running a different niche-interest place on that.


----------



## leanderman (Oct 11, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Mate of mine used to work at a reptile shop in Camden. The shop owner died recently and he toyed with the idea of trying to take it over. £30k a year rent - he worked it out that he might just make it work. Except that was the old rent. The solicitor next door, which owns the building is now asking for £70k a year - and it's a small place. No chance of running a different niche-interest place on that.



It's crazy

F+C apparently paid £50,000 to get into Brixton Village.

And I was told that was a one-off premium, not the lease.

Crazy, if true.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 11, 2013)

i think there are a lot of loss making boutiques and the like in the country, vanity shops subsidised by rich parents/spouses 
commercial rents + business rates are at insane levels


----------



## Dexter Deadwood (Oct 11, 2013)

leanderman said:


> It's crazy
> 
> F+C apparently paid £50,000 to get into Brixton Village.
> 
> ...



 Breathtaking.


----------



## rutabowa (Oct 11, 2013)

ska invita said:


> i think there are a lot of loss making boutiques and the like in the country, vanity shops subsidised by rich parents/spouses
> commercial rents + business rates are at insane levels


i am convinced this is true


----------



## ska invita (Oct 11, 2013)

rutabowa said:


> i am convinced this is true


i know of two as a friend worked at them and saw the books. And that was two out of two jobs.


----------



## T & P (Oct 11, 2013)

So, anyone there yet?


----------



## bosie (Oct 11, 2013)

rutabowa said:


> It was a pretty neat summing up of gentrification that you did (in yr first post), but where do you get yr information from? i mean, what you said is obviously the received wisdom of what is going on, the cliche, but have you first-hand experience that it actually is what is going on? You might well do i dunno... i don't necessarily disagree. it just sounded a bit too neat.



I am just an opinionated grump. Nothing to back it up per se and I could be wrong but if you look at the young 'arty' people - the people who purport to be skint artists and the slightly older people who are opening all of the trendy foodie/clothes places (there's always a bit of a bio about them on their websites/blogs/twitter pages/eveningn standard articles) you will see that they are effectively the same people, just a few years older. Same names, grew up in the same home counties, went to the same art colleges etc etc. That's what I pick up anyway.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 11, 2013)

Art colleges in the age of full grants brought in a bigger mix of people, but in the age of fees etc I think the social make up has changed upmarket <based on not much, but a vague impression


----------



## artyfarty (Oct 11, 2013)

ska invita said:


> i know of two as a friend worked at them and saw the books. And that was two out of two jobs.


We didnt have to pay a premium for the latest dive into capitalism but the rent is 65K pa for a shop with a basement and a flat above. The rent of the flat above offsets some of this but it's not much. Admittedly it's in a posh area but it's common for shop rents to be huge in all but the grimmest areas. Most shop properties are owned by large ish property companies, their only concern is making a buck, self repairing lease, were responsible for everything. Gutters, boilers, walls, painting, japanese knotweed, the lot.. And we are definitely not a vanity project. No rich parents just a fecking huge overdraft and sleepless nights worrying about it all.
Not middle class wankers, an ex nurse and an IT bod. Well maybe middle class, but not wankers with a trust fund.
I've viewed the opening of FandC in Brixton with mirth. Almost the equivalent of opening a Bong Shop concession in Harrods.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 11, 2013)

artyfarty said:


> I've viewed the opening of FandC in Brixton with mirth. Almost the equivalent of opening a Bong Shop concession in Harrods.


Pioneers


----------



## leanderman (Oct 11, 2013)

ska invita said:


> Art colleges in the age of full grants brought in a bigger mix of people, but in the age of fees etc I think the social make up has changed upmarket <based on not much, but a vague impression



Seems pretty accurate to me.

My niece, who lives in Brixton, is a graphic design student at Chelsea College of Art and the classmates of hers I have met are very well off.

She'll get invited to their parents' sprawling homes, often abroad, and find it tricky because her mother can offer only a Wiltshire bungalow in return.


----------



## artyfarty (Oct 11, 2013)

ska invita said:


> Pioneers


I really cant see them lasting that long. Who is gonna want to pay £8 for a small glass of sparkling wine in the Arcade?


----------



## ska invita (Oct 11, 2013)

leanderman said:


> My niece, who lives in Brixton, is a graphic design student at Chelsea College of Art and the classmates of hers I have met are very well off.


Chelsea was always the poshest of all art schools
anyway Brixton IS South Chelsea
https://www.google.co.uk/search?cli...rceid=opera&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&channel=suggest


----------



## boohoo (Oct 11, 2013)

artyfarty said:


> I really cant see them lasting that long. Who is gonna want to pay £8 for a small glass of sparkling wine in the Arcade?



If it was the only thing they were selling, they'd fail but I get the impression they are similar to the meat place which seems to be packed when I've seen it. Anyone for a cheese board?


----------



## teuchter (Oct 11, 2013)

No news from the front then? Have more than 5 people turned up for the "protest"?


----------



## DRINK? (Oct 11, 2013)

Damp squib written all over it, nation of fair weather protesters


----------



## Ms T (Oct 11, 2013)

I think I might have to go down there and buy some cheese have a look.


----------



## leanderman (Oct 11, 2013)

ska invita said:


> Chelsea was always the poshest of all art schools
> anyway Brixton IS South Chelsea
> https://www.google.co.uk/search?client=opera&q="South Chelsea" brixton&sourceid=opera&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&channel=suggest



Posher than the Slade School? Royal College of Art sounds quite posh too


----------



## gaijingirl (Oct 11, 2013)

alfajobrob said:


> I don't get all this queuing for for food in a restaurant. Drove past a similar queue waiting for breakfast at The Breakfast Club the other day. Why!?



Is that in Clapham.. I'd never heard of it until similarly, we were on our way for a swim and there was a massive queue.. on a Sunday morning.. for breakfast?  What a stressful bloody start to a Sunday that would be!


----------



## gabi (Oct 11, 2013)

This shit is being organized by somebody that numerous witnesses have claimed shouted 'niggers can't read'. And was barred. And is now looking for google results.

Support that. Or support bubbly and cheese. Both are rubbish but I can't ever condone that kind of shit. Up to you.


----------



## boohoo (Oct 11, 2013)

leanderman said:


> Posher than the Slade School? Royal College of Art sounds quite posh too



Slade family has Brixton origins (hence Slade Gardens)!


----------



## Badgers (Oct 11, 2013)

Ms T said:
			
		

> I think I might have to go down there and buy some cheese have a look.



I can't brie bothered


----------



## boohoo (Oct 11, 2013)

teuchter said:


> No news from the front then? Have more than 5 people turned up for the "protest"?



It's raining!


----------



## ska invita (Oct 11, 2013)

leanderman said:


> Posher than the Slade School? Royal College of Art sounds quite posh too


okay yeah, they are all pretty equally posh


----------



## Manter (Oct 11, 2013)

ska invita said:


> Art colleges in the age of full grants brought in a bigger mix of people, but in the age of fees etc I think the social make up has changed upmarket <based on not much, but a vague impression


Agree.  I think lots of potentially-high-earning-but-very-low-earning-in-the-early-years careers are becoming more and more exclusive- eg all of the arts but particularly film, TV, fashion- as only the offspring of the wealthy can afford both the fees and to do a couple of unpaid internships/work experience placements to boost their CVs.  Or to start work on a pitifully small salary- particularly as so many of the organisations are London based. Its pretty depressing


----------



## gaijingirl (Oct 11, 2013)

Ms T said:


> I think I might have to go down there and buy some cheese have a look.



Is it Stilton or has it wound up now?


----------



## ska invita (Oct 11, 2013)

gabi said:


> This shit is being organized by somebody that numerous witnesses have claimed shouted 'niggers can't read'. And was barred. And is now looking for google results.
> 
> Support that. Or support bubbly and cheese. Both are rubbish but I can't ever condone that kind of shit. Up to you.


i sympathise with that , but whoever called it its no longer their thing, its up to whoever goes down there and cares enough. bit like going on the march against iraq invasion doesnt make you SWP


----------



## gaijingirl (Oct 11, 2013)

Anyway.. whatever they're doing.. I hope they're doing it Caerphilly!


----------



## gabi (Oct 11, 2013)

Oh, I'm sure that toothless racist prick will still make it 'their thing'


----------



## Manter (Oct 11, 2013)

gaijingirl said:


> Anyway.. whatever they're doing.. I hope they're doing it Caerphilly!


oh dear, oh dear, proper dad humour...


----------



## Badgers (Oct 11, 2013)

gaijingirl said:
			
		

> Anyway.. whatever they're doing.. I hope they're doing it Caerphilly!



Otherwise they will Lansun themselves in bubble


----------



## boohoo (Oct 11, 2013)

Manter said:


> Agree.  I think lots of potentially-high-earning-but-very-low-earning-in-the-early-years careers are becoming more and more exclusive- eg all of the arts but particularly film, TV, fashion- as only the offspring of the wealthy can afford both the fees and to do a couple of unpaid internships/work experience placements to boost their CVs.  Or to start work on a pitifully small salary- particularly as so many of the organisations are London based. Its pretty depressing



Not sure if there is that many potentially high earning careers in fashion. I did my fashion degree nearly ten years ago, part time whilst working full time for the first two years. Did my fair share of free work. If my life hadn't crashed around me afterwards then who know where I would have got to! Had to work for next to nothing and get over being poor. That is why I am Queen of the charity shops!


----------



## gaijingirl (Oct 11, 2013)

Manter said:


> oh dear, oh dear, proper dad humour...



It's all gouda fun..


----------



## boohoo (Oct 11, 2013)

gaijingirl said:


> Is it Stilton or has it wound up now?



I camembert the wait


----------



## gaijingirl (Oct 11, 2013)

boohoo said:


> I camembert the wait


----------



## gabi (Oct 11, 2013)

How was the protest?


----------



## cesare (Oct 11, 2013)

gabi said:


> How was the protest?


Have a look in your crystal ball.


----------



## editor (Oct 11, 2013)

Outside the village


----------



## han (Oct 11, 2013)

Yes, tell us!


----------



## cesare (Oct 11, 2013)

That's not dairylea! It's a big chunk of Red Leicester


----------



## leanderman (Oct 11, 2013)

I'm going to protest if they don't sell Epoisses - the king of all cheeses. 

It stinks so much it is banned on French public transport, I read once.


----------



## Rushy (Oct 11, 2013)

I was down there about 30mins ago and not a lot happening at that point - maybe 40 people in the front car park. Lots of army surplus gear. Some banners. Low key market security outside the shop and at the main entrances - calm and polite. Staff looking nervous in the shop. A couple  of photographers.

No chanting at that point. Quite quiet apart from a very angry young fella with Yuppies Raus taped on his back banging a a tin as his stomped down Popes Road glaring at people but didn't see him when I went back down to CHL entrance.

That was about 30mins ago so...


----------



## gabi (Oct 11, 2013)

editor said:


> Outside the village


 
Awesome


----------



## tufty79 (Oct 11, 2013)

cesare said:


> That's not dairylea! It's a big chunk of Red Leicester


red wedge?


----------



## gabi (Oct 11, 2013)

SAUL CAN SPELL!


----------



## Manter (Oct 11, 2013)

boohoo said:


> Not sure if there is that many potentially high earning careers in fashion. I did my fashion degree nearly ten years ago, part time whilst working full time for the first two years. Did my fair share of free work. If my life hadn't crashed around me afterwards then who know where I would have got to! Had to work for next to nothing and get over being poor. That is why I am Queen of the charity shops!


Magazine editor? PR? Dunno. Some fashiony types certainly seem to be head to toe in posh clobber... It can't all be free? (Can it?) 

And at least your fashion training means you look good dressed from a charity shop


----------



## Badgers (Oct 11, 2013)

cesare said:
			
		

> That's not dairylea! It's a big chunk of Red Leicester



Nah. I think it is a pack of processed cheese slices? Can't confirm it is Dairylea from the photo, but it is the thin end of the wedge


----------



## cesare (Oct 11, 2013)

Chaumes on you! 
Chaumes on you! 

Who's eats?
Our eats 

Etc


----------



## ska invita (Oct 11, 2013)

cesare said:


> That's not dairylea! It's a big chunk of Red Leicester


sliced cheese wrapped in celophane


----------



## leanderman (Oct 11, 2013)

I am sure C+F's owners have learnt a Salut-ary lesson


----------



## Crispy (Oct 11, 2013)

I can't believe it took 39 pages for cheese puns


----------



## Manter (Oct 11, 2013)

Crispy said:


> I can't believe it took 39 pages for cheese puns


^^this


----------



## innit (Oct 11, 2013)

Crispy said:


> I can't believe it took 39 pages for cheese puns


Ingruyeredible really.


----------



## Dan U (Oct 11, 2013)

It's briemarkable


----------



## editor (Oct 11, 2013)

Despite some of the daft hyperbole posted here, I saw no worried/terrified/concerned staff at all. The whole thing was laid back and friendly.

In fact, the bloke from Fish Wings came over for a long chat and then he went off to take a photo of the banner for his Facebook page.

Funny thing is that some of the traders in the Village I've spoken to are concerned about the Fromage bunch turning up too because they know that if it is a success it will end up pricing them out of the market as the bigger/richer (ahem) 'independents' and chains move in.


----------



## Ms T (Oct 11, 2013)

Let's put it this way, they won't be talking about the Brixton Cheese riot in years to come.  

Culinary report - cheese selection is impressive.  Maybe about 50 types, including lots of different goat, époisses, aged gouda, comté, maroilles, vacherin, camembert au calvados, mimolette (must tell Mrs M about that one as it's her favourite).  As far as I could see, the prices were similar to French cheese shops, ie not cheap.  An sumptuous selection of saucisson as well and some posh paté.  It was not busy at all - looked like they'd gone for a "soft launch".  I suspect the launch party is on a different night.


----------



## leanderman (Oct 11, 2013)

Ms T said:


> Let's put it this way, they won't be talking about the Brixton Cheese riot in years to come.
> 
> Culinary report - cheese selection is impressive.  Maybe about 50 types, including lots of different goat, époisses, aged gouda, comté, maroilles, vacherin, camembert au calvados, mimolette (must tell Mrs M about that one as it's her favourite).  As far as I could see, the prices were similar to French cheese shops, ie not cheap.  An sumptuous selection of saucisson as well and some posh paté.  It was not busy at all - looked like they'd gone for a "soft launch".  I suspect the launch party is on a different night.



50 types ... Epoisses ... heaven


----------



## editor (Oct 11, 2013)

Ms T said:


> Culinary report - cheese selection is impressive.  Maybe about 50 types, including lots of different goat, époisses, aged gouda, comté, maroilles, vacherin, camembert au calvados, mimolette...


I don't even know what most of those are, and if they're as pricy as you say they are, I guess I never will.


----------



## Ms T (Oct 11, 2013)

leanderman said:


> 50 types ... Epoisses ... heaven



Smells like a dead rat, tastes divine.  I remember being served some in a restaurant in New Orleans once.  I was really excited because American cheese is generally shit.  When it arrived it was cold - ie straight from the fridge - not stinky and runny like it should be.  When I queried it, I was told "it's too stinky to leave out of the fridge".  Yes, that's the fucking point!  #fullyfledgedyuppie


----------



## Ms T (Oct 11, 2013)

editor said:


> I don't even know what most of those are, and if they're as pricy as you say they are, I guess I never will.



You could get a decent piece of cheese - a camembert, say, or half a truffled brie (yum) for a fiver or less.


----------



## fredfelt (Oct 11, 2013)

Ms T said:


> Let's put it this way, they won't be talking about the Brixton Cheese riot in years to come.
> 
> Culinary report - cheese selection is impressive.  Maybe about 50 types, including lots of different goat, époisses, aged gouda, comté, maroilles, vacherin, camembert au calvados, mimolette (must tell Mrs M about that one as it's her favourite).  As far as I could see, the prices were similar to French cheese shops, ie not cheap.  An sumptuous selection of saucisson as well and some posh paté.  It was not busy at all - looked like they'd gone for a "soft launch".  I suspect the launch party is on a different night.



Is their range of champagne equally as diverse?


----------



## leanderman (Oct 11, 2013)

editor said:


> I don't even know what most of those are, and if they're as pricy as you say they are, I guess I never will.



Epoisses is in Tesco Acre Lane.


----------



## leanderman (Oct 11, 2013)

Ms T said:


> Smells like a dead rat, tastes divine.  I remember being served some in a restaurant in New Orleans once.  I was really excited because American cheese is generally shit.  When it arrived it was cold - ie straight from the fridge - not stinky and runny like it should be.  When I queried it, I was told "it's too stinky to leave out of the fridge".  Yes, that's the fucking point!  #fullyfledgedyuppie



You have to keep an eye on it on a hot day: it kind of melts and tries to escape off the cheese board.


----------



## Manter (Oct 11, 2013)

Ms T said:


> Smells like a dead rat, tastes divine.  I remember being served some in a restaurant in New Orleans once.  I was really excited because American cheese is generally shit.  When it arrived it was cold - ie straight from the fridge - not stinky and runny like it should be.  When I queried it, I was told "it's too stinky to leave out of the fridge".  Yes, that's the fucking point!  #fullyfledgedyuppie


I was asked by a waiter in DC once whether I was European. When I said yes, he advised me to avoid cheese while in America as I would be 'invariably disappointed'


----------



## Ms T (Oct 11, 2013)

fredfelt said:


> Is their range of champagne equally as diverse?



I didn't spend much time perusing the champagne, I'm afraid.  They seemed to have about nine different types though.


----------



## Ms T (Oct 11, 2013)

leanderman said:


> Epoisses is in Tesco Acre Lane.



Price?


----------



## spanglechick (Oct 11, 2013)

Ms T said:


> You could get a decent piece of cheese - a camembert, say, or half a truffled brie (yum) for a fiver or less.


I was going to say, expensive for cheese isn't expensive in absolute terms.   For the price of a night in the pub you could try a number if those.  

People are free to spend their disposable income entirely as they prefer, but cheese is an affordable thing if you do have disposable income at a fairly modest level.  Lots exclusive about C&F.  But cheese isn't the preserve of the monied.


----------



## Rushy (Oct 11, 2013)

Manter said:


> I was asked by a waiter in DC once whether I was European. When I said yes, he advised me to avoid cheese while in America as I would be 'invariably disappointed'


Is unpasturised illegal there?
It is in Aus (or used to be?). All you could buy is Tasty which is a mild cheddar which does not do what it says on the tin (bag). Different varieties included grated, sliced, chunks and, if you left it in the car too long, melted.


----------



## Dan U (Oct 11, 2013)

Rushy said:


> Is unpasturised illegal there?
> It is in Aus (or used to be?). All you could buy is Tasty which is a mild cheddar which does not do what it says on the tin (bag). Different varieties included grated, sliced, chunks and, if you left it in the car too long, melted.



Don't forget good old Coon cheese in Australia. I always facepalm everytime I am over there. 

Will check the unpasteurised thing, am off to Tassie when I am next there which is pretty foodie. I've been told they have some decent cheese now but it remains to be seen


----------



## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Oct 11, 2013)

bosie said:


> (which I suppose one could argue is in Surrey ),



No need to argue, it quite simply isn't
You would need a time machine.


----------



## trabuquera (Oct 11, 2013)

leanderman said:


> Epoisses is in Tesco Acre Lane.


 
So are "lots of different goat, aged gouda, comté, and mimolette" - at least.
Prices - not much more than proper gruyere or parmesan. So they are not inherently the Capitalist Bastard option for decadent planetkilling eaters of working-class babies, although you do have to wrestle with your conscience about buying *anything* from Tesco obvs.


----------



## editor (Oct 11, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> People are free to spend their disposable income entirely as they prefer, but cheese is an affordable thing if you do have disposable income at a fairly modest level.  Lots exclusive about C&F.  But cheese isn't the preserve of the monied.


Cash strapped parents and the folks on my estate might struggle to feed their families on these kind of expensive cheeses, so I would argue that the stuff Fromage is selling is most certainly targeted at a wealthier demographic.


----------



## Manter (Oct 11, 2013)

Rushy said:


> Is unpasturised illegal there?
> It is in Aus (or used to be?). All you could buy is Tasty which is a mild cheddar which does not do what it says on the tin (bag). Different varieties included grated, sliced, chunks and, if you left it in the car too long, melted.


Depends on the state. Unpasteurised is illegal in NY state* and Virginia. Dunno about the other states, but I know the ones that move on your plate by themselves are v unpopular, and even things like Brie are served mostly young and v chilled. 

/yuppies post

*haggis is also illegal as it is untraceable offal. We used to smuggle it in, but never risked smuggling cheese...


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 11, 2013)

editor said:


> Cash strapped parents and the folks on my estate might struggle to feed their families on these kind of expensive cheeses, so I would argue that the stuff Fromage is selling is most certainly targeted at a wealthier demographic.


Of course it is. But for the price of a pint in a pub, you can instead, if that's your bag, buy a nice piece of cheese.


----------



## Rushy (Oct 11, 2013)

Dan U said:


> Don't forget good old Coon cheese in Australia. I always facepalm everytime I am over there.
> 
> Will check the unpasteurised thing, am off to Tassie when I am next there which is pretty foodie. I've been told they have some decent cheese now but it remains to be seen


I had forgotten about that! Just...how?!
Am headed to Melbourne for a month over Xmas so will see if things have improved.


----------



## editor (Oct 11, 2013)

Photos from the protest here:












http://www.brixtonbuzz.com/2013/10/...e-in-granvile-arcade-brixton-village-brixton/


----------



## Rushy (Oct 11, 2013)

Manter said:


> D
> 
> *haggis is also illegal



as it should be everywhere outside of Scotland.


----------



## Manter (Oct 11, 2013)

Dan U said:


> Coon cheese


----------



## Manter (Oct 11, 2013)

Rushy said:


> as it should be everywhere outside of Scotland.




I adore haggis.


----------



## editor (Oct 11, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Of course it is. But for the price of a pint in a pub, you can instead, if that's your bag, buy a nice piece of cheese.


I think you maybe just missing out the social/community element that goes with drinking in a pub as opposed to eating a lump of cheese.

Fabulously daft argument, this.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 11, 2013)

editor said:


> I think you maybe just missing out the social/community element that goes with drinking in a pub as opposed to eating a lump of cheese.
> 
> Fabulously daft argument, this.


Sharing food is about as basic a social thing any of us can do.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 11, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Of course it is. But for the price of a pint in a pub, you can instead, if that's your bag, buy a nice piece of cheese.


yes. so you'd prefer to sit at home on your tod nibbling your cheese like a dainty mouse instead of interacting with other people in a pub.


----------



## editor (Oct 11, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Sharing food is about as basic a social thing any of us can do.


And the argument gets weirder. How often do you share upmarket expensive cheese then, and where do you do it?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 11, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> yes. so you'd prefer to sit at home on your tod nibbling your cheese like a dainty mouse instead of interacting with other people in a pub.


Cooking good food for other people is one of my favourite things to do.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 11, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Sharing food is about as basic a social thing any of us can do.


----------



## Ms T (Oct 11, 2013)

Lots of people without much money spend £8 a day on a packet of fags.


----------



## editor (Oct 11, 2013)

Ms T said:


> Lots of people without much money spend £8 a day on a packet of fags.


That's because they're hooked to one of the most addictive drugs on the planet - and you have the tobacco industry and the government to thank for that one.


----------



## Ms T (Oct 11, 2013)

editor said:


> And the argument gets weirder. How often do you share upmarket expensive cheese then, and where do you do it?



U75 Bookgroup, pretty much once a month.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 11, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Cooking good food for other people is one of my favourite things to do.


yes, i like it too. but i don't whack a lump of cheese on a plate and expect people to be impressed with me. that's the difference between us.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 11, 2013)

editor said:


> And the argument gets weirder. How often do you share upmarket expensive cheese then, and where do you do it?


of course, once you get onto upmarket cheese you're approaching - and perhaps surpassing - the price of a round.


----------



## Ms T (Oct 11, 2013)

trabuquera said:


> So are "lots of different goat, aged gouda, comté, and mimolette" - at least.
> Prices - not much more than proper gruyere or parmesan. So they are not inherently the Capitalist Bastard option for decadent planetkilling eaters of working-class babies, although you do have to wrestle with your conscience about buying *anything* from Tesco obvs.



Loads of stuff you wouldn't find in Tesco.  Much better quality.  And they won't have screwed the suppliers in quite the same way.


----------



## Winot (Oct 11, 2013)

Manter said:


> I was asked by a waiter in DC once whether I was European. When I said yes, he advised me to avoid cheese while in America as I would be 'invariably disappointed'



You know the joke about the difference between France and the US?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 11, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> yes, i like it too. but i don't whack a lump of cheese on a plate and expect people to be impressed with me. that's the difference between us.


What are you wittering on about? People often buy nice food to share with people.


----------



## Ms T (Oct 11, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> of course, once you get onto upmarket cheese you're approaching - and perhaps surpassing - the price of a round.



Not really.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 11, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> What are you wittering on about? People often buy nice food to share with people.


you seem to be veering between buying and cooking: which is it?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 11, 2013)

Ms T said:


> Not really.


depends how many people there are in your book group i suppose. and their cheesy demands.


----------



## Crispy (Oct 11, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> of course, once you get onto upmarket cheese you're approaching - and perhaps surpassing - the price of a round.


No you're not 
A piece of nice cheese that can be shared between a group of friends of an evening in can cost less than a single pint in a regular pub. Here: http://www.ocado.com/webshop/getCategories.do?tags=|20000|20002|40326|40371&Asidebar=3 or http://www.ocado.com/webshop/getCategories.do?tags=|20000|20002|40326|40381&Asidebar=3.
I used ocado for extra yuppie points.


----------



## Manter (Oct 11, 2013)

Winot said:


> You know the joke about the difference between France and the US?


No?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 11, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> of course, once you get onto upmarket cheese you're approaching - and perhaps surpassing - the price of a round.


And? So at a once-a-month book group, you spend about as much as you might have done if you'd gone to the pub instead. And you get to treat people to things you really like and probably introduce them to something they haven't had before.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 11, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> And? So at a once-a-month book group, you spend about as much as you might have done if you'd gone to the pub instead. And you get to treat people to things you really like and probably introduce them to something they haven't had before.


how much would you spend in the pub?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 11, 2013)

Crispy said:


> No you're not
> A piece of nice cheese that can be shared between a group of friends of an evening in can cost less than a single pint in a regular pub. Here: http://www.ocado.com/webshop/getCategories.do?tags=|20000|20002|40326|40371&Asidebar=3 or http://www.ocado.com/webshop/getCategories.do?tags=|20000|20002|40326|40381&Asidebar=3.
> I used ocado for extra yuppie points.


UPMARKET for the hard of reading.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 11, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> how much would you spend in the pub?


This is a spectacularly stupid line of argument, even for you. I'll leave you here.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 11, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> This is a spectacularly stupid line of argument, even for you. I'll leave you here.


it's not 'a line of argument' it's a question arising from your previous post.


----------



## leanderman (Oct 11, 2013)

Ms T said:


> Price?



£4


----------



## ska invita (Oct 11, 2013)

amused


----------



## editor (Oct 11, 2013)

This cheese sharing argument really is quite bizarre.


----------



## Winot (Oct 11, 2013)

Manter said:


> No?



France is the land of 300 cheeses and one religion; the US has 300 religions and one cheese.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 11, 2013)

editor said:


> This cheese sharing argument really is quite bizarre.


specially because littlebabyjesus doesn't seem to have laid in any bread or pickles. or wine. only whine.


----------



## Crispy (Oct 11, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> UPMARKET for the hard of reading.


I look forward to seeing your figures.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 11, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> you seem to be veering between buying and cooking: which is it?


----------



## Rushy (Oct 11, 2013)

Ms T said:


> Lots of people without much money spend £8 a day on a packet of fags.


I swapped an oven for three cigarettes today.


----------



## Manter (Oct 11, 2013)

I'm a bit baffled by the pub v cheese argument. Different stuff at different times suits different people. I like cheese and I like pubs- why do we have to choose one or the other? You can spend a little or a lot on a variety of treats- beer with friends, cheese with friends, go out, stay in.... Whatever.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Oct 11, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> of course, once you get onto upmarket cheese you're approaching - and perhaps surpassing - the price of a round.


For the price of a round in a London pub you'd get a lot of cheese.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 11, 2013)

Manter said:


> I'm a bit baffled by the pub v cheese argument.


we need a poll really


----------



## editor (Oct 11, 2013)

sleaterkinney said:


> For the price of a round in a London pub you'd get a lot of cheese.


Ah, but what about if you went and got a load of ultra-cheap supermarket beer and saw how the beery fun potential stacked up against Fromage's upmarket plateful, eh? eh? eh?

Vital questions.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Oct 11, 2013)

editor said:


> Ah, but what about if you went and got a load of ultra-cheap supermarket beer and saw how the beery fun potential stacked up against Fromage's upmarket plateful, eh? eh? eh?
> 
> Vital questions.


Well, neither are essentials, so what's your point?


----------



## Ms T (Oct 11, 2013)

A respected poster of this parish once told me that she used to buy smoked salmon once a month for her and her daughter as a treat - even though they were so poor they would be living on plain pasta and rice and vegetables she'd picked up from the floor of the market.


----------



## Manter (Oct 11, 2013)

editor said:


> Ah, but what about if you went and got a load of ultra-cheap supermarket beer and saw how the beery fun potential stacked up against Fromage's upmarket plateful, eh? eh? eh?
> 
> Vital questions.


You'd be supporting the supermarket's exploitation of their suppliers and destruction of the British high street.  Could you enjoy that beer, eh, knowing that?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 11, 2013)

Crispy said:


> I look forward to seeing your figures.


if you're entertaining then you might want to get 250g of yarg, which at waitrose would set you back £4.50. but you can't stop there because showing people a plate with a lump of cheese on - and not a particularly large lump either - won't impress them much. so you go perhaps for an unusual cheese. perhaps some waitrose vacherin du haut-doubs aop, retailing at a mere £6.79 (down from £8.49) for 350g. but you can't leave it there either as you need to have a couple more lumps. not to mention some bread, some wine and some pickles or chutney. and a few scotch eggs to scatter round the place. before you know it you won't get change out of a £50 note.


----------



## Yossarian (Oct 11, 2013)

"I went out last night and blew this week's rent money on fancy cheese," said nobody ever.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 11, 2013)

sleaterkinney said:


> For the price of a round in a London pub you'd get a lot of cheese.


but not a lot of upmarket cheese. not for a bookgroup or similar cultural gathering.


----------



## editor (Oct 11, 2013)

Manter said:


> You'd be supporting the supermarket's exploitation of their suppliers and destruction of the British high street.  Could you enjoy that beer, eh, knowing that?


That's OK, I'll brew my own beer. Sorted.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Oct 11, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> but not a lot of upmarket cheese. not for a bookgroup or similar cultural gathering.


Give us an example.


----------



## editor (Oct 11, 2013)

sleaterkinney said:


> Well, neither are essentials, so what's your point?


You expect a _point_ to this daft debate?!


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 11, 2013)

sleaterkinney said:


> Give us an example.


i have.


----------



## editor (Oct 11, 2013)

In other news, it was good to see a strong Dulwich Hamlet turn out today.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 11, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> if you're entertaining then you might want to get 250g of yarg, which at waitrose would set you back £4.50. but you can't stop there because showing people a plate with a lump of cheese on - and not a particularly large lump either - won't impress them much. so you go perhaps for an unusual cheese. perhaps some waitrose vacherin du haut-doubs aop, retailing at a mere £6.79 (down from £8.49) for 350g. but you can't leave it there either as you need to have a couple more lumps. not to mention some bread, some wine and some pickles or chutney. and a few scotch eggs to scatter round the place. before you know it you won't get change out of a £50 note.


You're confusing wanting to give people pleasure with trying to impress people. I might buy an expensive bit of cheese and offer it to someone to try before serving them an ox cheek stew made for about the same price as the cheese cost. It's not about impressing people - it's about sharing things you like with them because they might like them too.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Oct 11, 2013)

editor said:


> You expect a _point_ to this daft debate?!


No, I'm just killing time before going down the pub.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 11, 2013)

sleaterkinney said:


> Well, neither are essentials, so what's your point?


what makes you think beer's not an essential?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 11, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> You're confusing wanting to give people pleasure with trying to impress people. I might buy an expensive bit of cheese and offer it to someone to try before serving them an ox cheek stew made for about the same price as the cheese cost. It's not about impressing people - it's about sharing things you like with them because they might like them too.


you're getting confused because i was replying to someone else and not to you.


----------



## story (Oct 11, 2013)

Wy is Cannon and Cannon aceptable if Champagne and Fromage isn't?

The cheese in Cannon and Cannon is pricey, as is the Brixton Beer they sell in there, and the chorizo, and air dried ham, and the brownies aren't cheap either.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 11, 2013)

story said:


> Wy is Cannon and Cannon aceptable if Champagne and Fromage isn't?
> 
> The cheese in Cannon and Cannon is pricey, as is the Brixton Beer they sell in there, and the chorizo, and air dried ham, and the brownies aren't cheap either.


it isn't. next.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 11, 2013)

story said:


> Wy is Cannon and Cannon aceptable if Champagne and Fromage isn't?
> 
> The cheese in Cannon and Cannon is pricey, as is the Brixton Beer they sell in there, and the chorizo, and air dried ham, and the brownies aren't cheap either.


I think it's mostly because C and F has a silly name.


----------



## leanderman (Oct 11, 2013)

Does this get in a 'top ten' threads list, in terms of length or importance or something?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 11, 2013)

leanderman said:


> Does this get in a 'top ten' threads list, in terms of length or importance or something?


not yet. i don't think there's been a banning yet.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Oct 11, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> if you're entertaining then you might want to get 250g of yarg, which at waitrose would set you back £4.50. but you can't stop there because showing people a plate with a lump of cheese on - and not a particularly large lump either - won't impress them much. so you go perhaps for an unusual cheese. perhaps some waitrose vacherin du haut-doubs aop, retailing at a mere £6.79 (down from £8.49) for 350g. but you can't leave it there either as you need to have a couple more lumps. not to mention some bread, some wine and some pickles or chutney. and a few scotch eggs to scatter round the place. before you know it you won't get change out of a £50 note.



Maybe you should host a bookgroup?.  It's been a while since you've been.


----------



## discokermit (Oct 11, 2013)

ska invita said:


> amused


that is lovely. needs to sort out the pocket square though.

lovely stitching.


----------



## Manter (Oct 11, 2013)

leanderman said:


> Does this get in a 'top ten' threads list, in terms of length or importance or something?


not yet taken a proper turn for the surreal and no one has been banned as a result of it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 11, 2013)

sleaterkinney said:


> Maybe you should host a bookgroup?.  It's been a while since you've been.


being as i'm not in south london it's not surprising.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Oct 11, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I think it's mostly because C and F has a silly name.



I think it's partly that at least, and also that you'd have to try really hard to portray this place as anything but very upmarket. The question has been asked several times on the thread though as if everything else was fine and then people have suddenly gone nuts just because of this place, when actually the difference is between people resenting the changes, and people resenting the changes enough to wander down there and make a little noise for a bit. Not really a huge leap.


----------



## story (Oct 11, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I think it's mostly because C and F has a silly name.



Do you know, I actually said that in my post, and then edited it out.

Fromage and Champagne is ridiculously Sloaney, isn't it. It will no doubt be shortened to From-an-Champ by the regulars who flock over Chelsea Bridge to access it.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 11, 2013)

story said:


> Do you know, I actually said that in my post, and then edited it out.
> 
> Fromage and Champagne is ridiculously Sloaney, isn't it. It will no doubt be shortened to From-an-Champ by the regulars who flock over Chelsea Bridge to access it.


Kind of thing that makes you wonder how anyone would think it was a good idea. Mind you I thought that about pret-a-manger when they started, and now everyone just calls it pret and it kind of seems normal.

I keep thinking of frottage when I see this name.


----------



## Manter (Oct 11, 2013)

story said:


> Do you know, I actually said that in my post, and then edited it out.
> 
> Fromage and Champagne is ridiculously Sloaney, isn't it. It will no doubt be shortened to From-an-Champ by the regulars who flock over Chelsea Bridge to access it.


I think those north of Chelsea bridge are still petrified of Brixton.  They're scared of Clapham FFS.

Actually, come to think of it, I'm scared of Clapham


----------



## Dan U (Oct 11, 2013)

Rushy said:


> I had forgotten about that! Just...how?!
> Am headed to Melbourne for a month over Xmas so will see if things have improved.



Am there all of November. We can compare cheese notes


----------



## editor (Oct 11, 2013)

Mind you, it might be awfully nice for those well heeled types slurping champagne to watch the poor locals shuffling by to shop in what's left of their market. Give it a year or two and they'll just probably have to shuffle out of the market altogether, because it'll all be taken over by more of the same. Huzzah! Afternoon tea for the price of a weekly shopping spend anyone?


----------



## Manter (Oct 11, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Kind of thing that makes you wonder how anyone would think it was a good idea. Mind you I thought that about pret-a-manger when they started, and now everyone just calls it pret and it kind of seems normal.


good point.

Though Champagne + Fromage  'Let's bubble' is in a league of its own in terms of dumb names...


----------



## story (Oct 11, 2013)

I think Tique Booty is pretty fucking stupid myself. I fucking hate that shop, and everyone involved with it. Proper hate it.


----------



## editor (Oct 11, 2013)

story said:


> Do you know, I actually said that in my post, and then edited it out.
> 
> Fromage and Champagne is ridiculously Sloaney, isn't it. It will no doubt be shortened to From-an-Champ by the regulars who flock over Chelsea Bridge to access it.


Maybe to this?


----------



## Manter (Oct 11, 2013)

story said:


> I think Tique Booty is pretty fucking stupid myself. I fucking hate that shop, and everyone involved with it. Proper hate it.


yup. you can have that one.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 11, 2013)

editor said:


> Maybe to this?
> 
> View attachment 41772


frompagne


----------



## leanderman (Oct 11, 2013)

Manter said:


> good point.
> 
> Though Champagne + Fromage  'Let's bubble' is in a league of its own in terms of dumb names...



I think Chix and Buck, the nearby wine bar, has an even worse name (and terrible logo artwork)

Godawfulming comes to Brixton


----------



## editor (Oct 11, 2013)

story said:


> I think Tique Booty is pretty fucking stupid myself. I fucking hate that shop, and everyone involved with it. Proper hate it.


One of the guys who runs it _really_ thinks he is down with proper real Brixton and 'all the Jamaicans and locals and real Brixton people shop there' yadda yadda yadda.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 11, 2013)

leanderman said:


> I think Chix and Buck, the nearby wine bar, has an even worse name (and terrible logo artwork)
> 
> Godawfulming comes to Brixton


chuck and bix after a few drinks though


----------



## editor (Oct 11, 2013)

leanderman said:


> I think Chix and Buck, the nearby wine bar, has an even worse name (and terrible logo artwork)
> 
> Godawfulming comes to Brixton


They now appear to be calling themselves 'The Wine Parlour' which gives me a fresh shudder each time I pass by.


----------



## editor (Oct 11, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> chuck and bix after a few drinks though


Barf and vom when I look in that window.


----------



## RubyToogood (Oct 11, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> frompagne


Chomage... oh no, hang on, that means something else...


----------



## story (Oct 11, 2013)

leanderman said:


> I think Chix and Buck, the nearby wine bar, has an even worse name (and terrible logo artwork)
> 
> Godawfulming comes to Brixton




Jeesus. I have been blissfully unaware of this one until this moment.

Chicks. And a single Buck.


----------



## Manter (Oct 11, 2013)

leanderman said:


> Godawfulming



 

Have you just outed yourself as an OC???


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 11, 2013)

story said:


> Jeesus. I have been blissfully unaware of this one until this moment.
> 
> Chicks. And a single Buck.







i'm sure that buck went somewhere over here...


----------



## T & P (Oct 11, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> not yet. i don't think there's been a banning yet.


 Can't be long before someone loses it and goes all fromage-happy on us...


----------



## fortyplus (Oct 11, 2013)

story said:


> I think Tique Booty is pretty fucking stupid myself. I fucking hate that shop, and everyone involved with it. Proper hate it.


They came and gave all the other traders in the market a 10% discount card when they opened. Which is more than C&F have done. But 10% off a price that's about 100 times what anyone sane would pay for a piece of tatty second- or third-hand junk isn't that great a deal.


----------



## story (Oct 11, 2013)

editor said:


> One of the guys who runs it _really_ thinks he is down with proper real Brixton and 'all the Jamaicans and locals and real Brixton people shop there' yadda yadda yadda.



Well he's a tool.

The week they first came in to clear the shop, I stopped to say hello and have a chat. I posted this at the time in the July chitter chatter thread, but here it is again.



Noticed another shop change in the market: the greengrocers that was opposite the fishmonger just inside the Atlantic Rd entrance to Market Row... Being done up by three lads: young, blonde, fresh, shiny.

I went over to ask what they're planning to be.

Me: Hello, what are you going to be?

Him: A fishmonger.

Me: (slightly nonplussed, assuming he was jesting, but not sure) Okay... Cos we don't have enough of them?

Him: No, we're going to be a vintage clothing shop.

Me: Oh! It'll be nice to have some of the Brixton Village stuff spill over into this part of the market. (I admit that I was being polite rather than genuine here...)

Him: Do you live here? (I thought this was an odd - if telling - question... I don't think I've ever been asked it before whilst in Brixton.)

Me: Yes. Do you?

Him: No...but we are moving here very soon...

Me: Where are you guys from, then?

Him: Kingston.

Other bloke: Do we need a passport?

Me: (still giving them the benefit of the doubt) Ha, no; but we do have our own currency.

Other bloke: What, marijuana?

Me: (rather more nonplussed...) Er... no...

Other bloke: Crack?

Me: (now getting annoyed, but keeping it to a simmer): No, the Brixton Pound. If you're opening a store, you should check it out.

Third bloke: Yes, we know about that.

Other bloke: ...Heroin?

Me: What? Are you serious? You need to change your attitude if you're going to be working and living here.





And wasn't this place that was playing Keane really loud and were told to cease and desist by a local?


----------



## story (Oct 11, 2013)

fortyplus said:


> They came and gave all the other traders in the market a 10% discount card when they opened. Which is more than C&F have done. But 10% off a price that's about 100 times what anyone sane would pay for a piece of tatty second- or third-hand junk isn't that great a deal.



If I ever do look at their stuff as I pass, I'm always head-shakingly surprised by the tattiness and crappiness of their tat, and the absurd pricing.

When the weather is bitter, I watch to see how miserable they are in their grandiose down-at-heel hubristic shop.


----------



## leanderman (Oct 11, 2013)

Manter said:


> Have you just outed yourself as an OC???



What is an OC?


----------



## Rushy (Oct 11, 2013)

Manter said:


> yup. you can have that one.


Is that the furniture shop in market row?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 11, 2013)

leanderman said:


> What is an OC?


auld curmudgeon?


----------



## Ms T (Oct 11, 2013)

That place in Market Row is ridiculously expensive.  I didn't realise it also had a ridiculous name.


----------



## leanderman (Oct 11, 2013)

story said:


> If I ever do look at their stuff as I pass, I'm always head-shakingly surprised by the tattiness and crappiness of their tat, and the absurd pricing.
> 
> When the weather is bitter, I watch to see how miserable they are in their grandiose down-at-heel hubristic shop.



To bring it full circle, I saw them flagrantly drinking Veuve Clicquot in their shop a month back.


----------



## leanderman (Oct 11, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> auld curmudgeon?



I've got it: Old Carthusian. Charterhouse school.


----------



## Rushy (Oct 11, 2013)

So funny. Last night I spotted for sale an old two door kitchen cabinet which had been in a front garden on Nursery Road for at least 3 weeks!


----------



## Manter (Oct 11, 2013)

Rushy said:


> Is that the furniture shop in market row?


 it sells mainly vintage clothes but usually has random old furniture out the front, so think its the one you're thinking of.  Bloke in there told the Northerner it was a 'vintage lifestyle store'.


----------



## story (Oct 11, 2013)

Rushy said:


> So funny. Last night I spotted for sale an old two door kitchen cabinet which had been in a front garden on Nursery Road for at least 3 weeks!



See? Parasites, they are. Fuckers.


----------



## Manter (Oct 11, 2013)

leanderman said:


> I've got it: Old Carthusian. Charterhouse school.


yup.  And sure you're not


----------



## story (Oct 11, 2013)

leanderman said:


> To bring it full circle, I saw them flagrantly drinking Veuve Clicquot in their shop a month back.



Oh my teeth are grinding...


----------



## SarfLondoner (Oct 11, 2013)

Dexter Deadwood said:


> Will they become fat cats?


I reckon they will, due to the amount of mice they will catch in there.


gaijingirl said:


> Is it Stilton or has it wound up now?


Gets coat and leaves.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 11, 2013)

Winot said:


> Just like Café Rouge then.
> 
> If you are talking about interior design then I agree with you.  However your earlier post:
> 
> ...



Fair enough. 

Your first reply made me think more. Or make more clearly expressed what I thought. 

I do think aloud here sometimes. It was Boohoo comment on "branding" that made me think that there is something interesting to look at. Also a comment by Rushy that this is not big nasty corporate but a small business. 

Been out all day and have a lot on. So have not caught up with this thread yet.


----------



## Manter (Oct 11, 2013)

Gramsci said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> Your first reply made me think more. Or make more clearly expressed what I thought.
> 
> ...


Cheese puns, bizarre debate on pubs v cheese, segue on dumb shop names, rant about Tique Booty.

HTH


----------



## ska invita (Oct 11, 2013)

discokermit said:


> that is lovely. needs to sort out the pocket square though.


you did see that its a cheese slice yeah?


----------



## discokermit (Oct 11, 2013)

ska invita said:


> you did see that its a cheese slice yeah?


oh yeh! 

it was the bulges underneath i was mainly concerned about.


----------



## T & P (Oct 11, 2013)

Was passing by just now and popped my head in to have a look. About eight people having a drink or browsing/ purchasing stock. Didn't look any more or less busy than other places in the market. In truth it wasn't particularly busy anywhere inside tonight. Maybe it's the footy, or the weather.


----------



## story (Oct 11, 2013)

T & P said:


> Was passing by just now and popped my head in to have a look. About eight people having a drink or browsing/ purchasing stock. Didn't look any more or less busy than other places in the market. In truth it wasn't particularly busy anywhere inside tonight. Maybe it's the footy, or the weather.




Judging by how many Yuppies Out warriors are currently drying off in my front room with beer and football, both of those factors are material.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 11, 2013)

bosie said:


> It's different in London now though. Before the artists were a real mixture of people. Most of the young 'artists' nowadays though are the son's and daughters of people with money. They just basically pretend they don't have any themselves - when really they are just a phone call to Berkshire away from their rent being paid. Working class kids don't open pop up interactive art galleries in old shops in London. They can't afford to. They get proper jobs.



A bit harsh I think. What I have heard is that artists are now leaving London or not coming here. Have heard from an artist friend that there is arts scene developing outside London up North. Where it is still possible to get cheapish accommodation.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 11, 2013)

Ms T said:


> Lots of people without much money spend £8 a day on a packet of fags.



People without much money are finding there lives getting harder under this government. 

Its not easy life on a low paid job or on benefits. 

Coldharbour Ward as a whole is area of high deprivation. 

Those who can shop in C&F and those who shop in Iceland live in two completely separate worlds.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 11, 2013)

Manter said:


> Cheese puns, bizarre debate on pubs v cheese, segue on dumb shop names, rant about Tique Booty.
> 
> HTH



See what u mean. Read most of it now.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 11, 2013)

So it was piece of street theatre. As I previously posted I thought it would be peaceful. 

Great pics by editor


----------



## Ms T (Oct 11, 2013)

Gramsci said:


> People without much money are finding there lives getting harder under this government.
> 
> Its not easy life on a low paid job or on benefits.
> 
> ...



Of course.  Question is, should they exist side by side?


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 11, 2013)

Ms T said:


> Of course.  Question is, should they exist side by side?



Yes. Views about the low paid and those on benefits having an easy life would not be so easy to hold if that was the case.


----------



## han (Oct 11, 2013)

I'm not quite sure I see the difference between spending £50 on champagne and cheese, or £50 on beer and snortable drugs on a night out. Can someone explain? 

It makes me laugh when I see people ranting about gentrification, but they don't see the hypocrisy in their own lives that's staring them in the face. 

Amen.


----------



## oryx (Oct 11, 2013)

A similar process is going on where I live (the Honor Oak Park/Crofton Park area in Lewisham, SE London).

I have lived here since 2007 and seen changes, though probably not as great as those in Brixton as it's a quieter area with fewer shops and less of a nightime economy.

I don't know any other social networking sites for Brixton than this one, though I follow those in my area.

What I notice is parallel lives.

There are people who only see an area in terms of certain business types and chat about them. The other types of business, e.g. corner shops, minimarts, chip shops, kebab shops, fish and chip shops, laundrettes, dry cleaners, nail shops, ordinary hairdressers, chemists, etc. are not really on their radar. It's like they don't exist. They are businesses used by a large number of people in the area.

I am a relative incomer to my area, but I would like to think my 'mental map' of the area isn't limited to delis, coffee bars, and upmarket gift shops.

There are probably other Brixton/Tulse/Herne Hill websites having a collective orgasm about Champagne and Fromage coming to you. That would definitely happen if C & F opened up round my way!


----------



## Dexter Deadwood (Oct 11, 2013)

As you all know it's a private market with gates. It won't be long before the gates get changed and you won't get in because you no longer belong inside Thatcher's gates. No longer just economically excluded but physically excluded and criminalised if you dare protests outside the gates. Your lifestyle in Brixton is out of stock inside the yuppie playground they call a village.


----------



## Dexter Deadwood (Oct 11, 2013)

Ms T said:


> Lots of people without much money spend £8 a day on a packet of fags.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 11, 2013)

han said:


> I'm not quite sure I see the difference between spending £50 on champagne and cheese, or £50 on beer and snortable drugs on a night out. Can someone explain?
> 
> It makes me laugh when I see people ranting about gentrification, but they don't see the hypocrisy in their own lives that's staring them in the face.
> 
> Amen.



Yes I can explain.

I have neither £50 for Champagne and Cheese or £50 for beer and snortable drugs on a night out. I am not the only person in that situation.


----------



## Dexter Deadwood (Oct 11, 2013)

han said:


> I'm not quite sure I see the difference between spending £50 on champagne and cheese, or £50 on beer and snortable drugs on a night out. Can someone explain?
> 
> It makes me laugh when I see people ranting about gentrification, but they don't see the hypocrisy in their own lives that's staring them in the face.
> 
> Amen.



If only everyone had your insight we would all be lambs to the slaughter.


----------



## snowy_again (Oct 11, 2013)

Gramsci -  But I swear I bumped into Saul doing exactly that in his dressing gown in the Effra Social funk night a few weeks back . Could be mistaken, but the more I look into it the more I remember the Saudis from the ED - peckham ex-carpet factory squat party nights. 

He is perfectly entitled to do it, and I dont want to repeat that strawman argument over whether one topic to protest against negates another (loan sharks > champagne bars), but the only winners seem to be the social media hits for Yuppies Out tonight. So facebook wins on advertising revenue.


----------



## leanderman (Oct 11, 2013)

Gramsci said:


> Yes I can explain.
> 
> I have neither £50 for Champagne and Cheese or £50 for beer and snortable drugs on a night out. I am not the only person in that situation.



if you rent, and you may not, this is not a surprise. renting a room is £600pm


----------



## snowy_again (Oct 12, 2013)

If youre a newcomer and dont have friends in the area maybe. just missed a 1 bed HH garden flat for 750pcm


----------



## editor (Oct 12, 2013)

han said:


> I'm not quite sure I see the difference between spending £50 on champagne and cheese, or £50 on beer and snortable drugs on a night out. Can someone explain?


Don't know about you, but I don't think I've ever spent £50 on any night out, ever.

And I certainly can't spend £110 on a bottle of posh plonk or £30 for afternoon tea in Granville Arcade.


----------



## han (Oct 12, 2013)

editor said:
			
		

> Don't know about you, but I don't think I've ever spent £50 on any night out, ever.



Er, lol! Are you for real?


----------



## han (Oct 12, 2013)

editor said:
			
		

> And I certainly can't spend £110 on a bottle of posh plonk or £30 for afternoon tea in Granville Arcade.



Me neither.


----------



## han (Oct 12, 2013)

.


----------



## han (Oct 12, 2013)

Gramsci said:
			
		

> Yes I can explain.
> 
> I have neither £50 for Champagne and Cheese or £50 for beer and snortable drugs on a night out. I am not the only person in that situation.



Did I say I do? No!


----------



## tommers (Oct 12, 2013)

This is such a weird thread.


----------



## han (Oct 12, 2013)

Dexter Deadwood said:
			
		

> If only everyone had your insight we would all be lambs to the slaughter.



Haha.


----------



## killer b (Oct 12, 2013)

editor said:


> Don't know about you, but I don't think I've ever spent £50 on any night out, ever.


really? that's about 5 pints and a kebab in that london. when i was drinking i could easily spend north of 50 quid and i live in the north where pints cost pennies...


----------



## Badgers (Oct 12, 2013)

killer b said:
			
		

> really? that's about 5 pints and a kebab in that london. when i was drinking i could easily spend north of 50 quid and i live in the north where pints cost pennies...



Do they have kebabs up north?


----------



## killer b (Oct 12, 2013)

sort of. it's more like a pie on a stick tbh, but we try.


----------



## Agent Sparrow (Oct 12, 2013)

han said:


> I'm not quite sure I see the difference between spending £50 on champagne and cheese, or £50 on beer and snortable drugs on a night out. Can someone explain?



Well, even if I wanted to (which I don't) I couldn't do either of those options ATM!  However, the only alcohol I have fancied at all over the last few months has been fizzy wine, and actually in theory there should be something appealing about a place where you can order it by the glass, given a bottle I can't drink would be a massive waste of money. The extravagant expense would be more than covered by the fact I spend no money on booze ATM!

However, I won't be doing that in F&C because, as others have said, there does seen to be something more here, about the very idea and branding of poshness in a rapidly gentrifying area. I agree, had it just been a cheese shop it probably would have escaped a lot of the resentment. Maybe it's part irrational, but the idea of it does make me uncomfortable, in a similar way to how I sometimes feel uncomfortable there on a Saturday afternoon, watching the uneasy mingling of apparent newcomers and tourists, with little old ladies who presumably have lived there for years looking around wondering what the fuck has happened to their market. And possibly what adds to that discomfort is that I know full well, on first glance, what group I visibly most belong to too (makes me want to cry out " but I'm here for the butchers, not Franco Manco!" )

However, having said that the Yuppies Out page has always made me think of Ernestolynch. Sometimes hilarious, but also often "that's really not on!" , and I doubt I'd go to a protest organised by him either. I think part of it is there's not a clear line between poor people and yuppies; what quite defines a yuppie these days anyway?. In reality, income and disposible income is spread numerically rather than categorically, and at what point does someone go from one group to the other? And is it just about income, because if so what happens if your income changes?  In the case of _some_ of the stuff I've seen on Yuppies Out, it seems to be anyone who isn't like them.


----------



## han (Oct 12, 2013)

Gramsci said:
			
		

> Yes I can explain.
> 
> I have neither £50 for Champagne and Cheese or £50 for beer and snortable drugs on a night out. I am not the only person in that situation.



I'm not denying that. All I'm saying is that people choose what to spend their money on. Ok, let's say £10 on a night out, one person might buy a glass of champagne and a lump of cheese, another might share a gramme of charlie with their 4 friends. Who has the moral highground? ;-)


----------



## Badgers (Oct 12, 2013)

killer b said:
			
		

> sort of. it's more like a pie on a stick tbh, but we try.



Brawn out of fashion?


----------



## killer b (Oct 12, 2013)

han said:


> I'm not denying that. All I'm saying is that people choose what to spend their money on. Ok, let's say £10 on a night out, one person might buy a glass of champagne and a lump of cheese, another might share a gramme of charlie with their 4 friends. Who has the moral highground? ;-)


i don't think this is really about consumer choices is it? it's about a specific business being emblematic of rapid (and unwelcome to many here) change in brixton.


----------



## killer b (Oct 12, 2013)

Badgers said:


> Brawn out of fashion?


it falls inbetween the bars on the grill when you try to cook it.


----------



## boohoo (Oct 12, 2013)

Dexter Deadwood said:


> View attachment 41783


Smells like you haven't been a smoker!


----------



## killer b (Oct 12, 2013)

yer, i was spending 8 quid a day on fags when i was smoking, it almost ruined me. i'm still paying off the debts i ran up now.


----------



## han (Oct 12, 2013)

Agent Sparrow said:
			
		

> And is it just about income, because if so what happens if your income changes?  In the case of some of the stuff I've seen on Yuppies Out, it seems to be anyone who isn't like them.



That's it. 

Fwiw, I won't be going there, it has a wanky name, it looks wanky. The Grosvenor is my pub of choice, and anyway, I prefer cider. 

But I'm not going to judge anyone for what they spend their money on, even if it's something I wouldn't do myself.


----------



## boohoo (Oct 12, 2013)

snowy_again said:


> If youre a newcomer and dont have friends in the area maybe. just missed a 1 bed HH garden flat for 750pcm



These flats at these prices are pretty rare.


----------



## han (Oct 12, 2013)

killer b said:
			
		

> i don't think this is really about consumer choices is it? it's about a specific business being emblematic of rapid (and unwelcome to many here) change in brixton.



I too find the change too rapid and unwelcome, I just don't agree that focussing on one independent shop is the way to protest. Even though I totally understand why people have done this. 

It's the rising rents we should be fighting, and corporate tax evasion. 

The real issues causing all this are much bigger.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 12, 2013)

boohoo said:
			
		

> These flats at these prices are like pretty rare.



Roughly 60% of going rate.


----------



## Dan U (Oct 12, 2013)

editor said:


> Don't know about you, but I don't think I've ever spent £50 on any night out, ever.
> 
> And I certainly can't spend £110 on a bottle of posh plonk or £30 for afternoon tea in Granville Arcade.



Not even on a long new years etc, booze and accompaniments? You must get bought a lot of pints!


----------



## boohoo (Oct 12, 2013)

editor said:


> And I certainly can't spend ...... £30 for afternoon tea in Granville Arcade.



As discuss earlier, I don't think anyone in their right mind would seek out a £30 afternoon tea in Granville Arcade.


----------



## killer b (Oct 12, 2013)

han said:


> I too find the change too rapid and unwelcome, I just don't agree that focussing on one independent shop is the way to protest. Even though I totally understand why people have done this.
> 
> It's the rising rents we should be fighting, and corporate tax evasion.
> 
> The real issues causing all this are much bigger.


it isn't a fight i'd choose, but actually focusing on one independent business is much more likely to result in some kind of victory than attempting to somehow take on rising rents and corporate tax evasion. it's something local and achievable for people to focus on, and showing them that this kind of business isn't welcome in brixton is something that would have knock on effects to other businesses considering moving in. 

and of course it's totally possible to campaign against gentrification in brixton _and_ against rising rents & corporate tax evasion. in fact, the local links people could make getting involved in a campaign like this would make more wide ranging campaigning easier.


----------



## tommers (Oct 12, 2013)

boohoo said:


> As discuss earlier, I don't think anyone in their right mind would seek out a £30 afternoon tea in Granville Arcade.



Is it a cream tea?  Or just one of those with shitty little cakes and cucumber sandwiches with the crusts off?


----------



## han (Oct 12, 2013)

boohoo said:
			
		

> As discuss earlier, I don't think anyone in their right mind would seek out a £30 afternoon tea in Granville Arcade.



If I was going to do that as a special birthday treat (which I wouldn't), I'd at least go somewhere... nice....!


----------



## Dan U (Oct 12, 2013)

boohoo said:


> As discuss earlier, I don't think anyone in their right mind would seek out a £30 afternoon tea in Granville Arcade.



I took the mrs for afternoon tea recently on a rare baby free date day. Her face would have been a picture if we had rocked up to Granville Arcade.


----------



## han (Oct 12, 2013)

killer b said:
			
		

> it isn't a fight i'd choose, but actually focusing on one independent business is much more likely to result in some kind of victory than attempting to somehow take on rising rents and corporate tax evasion. it's something local and achievable for people to focus on, and showing them that this kind of business isn't welcome in brixton is something that would have knock on effects to other businesses considering moving in. .



Good point.


----------



## Agent Sparrow (Oct 12, 2013)

han said:


> If I was going to do that as a special birthday treat (which I wouldn't), I'd at least go somewhere... nice....!


And tbh I feel that way about the champagne by the glass too! I did do this in London once, for my birthday, at Tower 42. Sunset across the sprawl of London from high up is a bit more special than Brixton market


----------



## tommers (Oct 12, 2013)

Agent Sparrow said:


> And tbh I feel that way about the champagne by the glass too! I did do this in London once, for my birthday, at Tower 42. Sunset across the sprawl of London from high up is a bit more special than Brixton market



Yuppies out!


----------



## Agent Sparrow (Oct 12, 2013)

tommers said:


> Yuppies out!


Tbf it was only one glass cos that's all we felt we could afford, and I did feel a bit uncomfortable there too but from the other angle! (i.e. I had dressed up all nicely for my birthday treat, and it was full of casually dressed rich people who presumably do it all the time )


----------



## killer b (Oct 12, 2013)

i never dress up when i go out to a posh place. you get better service 'cause they don't think you're a pleb.


----------



## han (Oct 12, 2013)

killer b said:
			
		

> i never dress up when i go out to a posh place. you get better service 'cause they don't think you're a pleb.



REALLY posh people are often quite scruffy. All their money disappearing into crumbling stately homes.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 12, 2013)

killer b said:


> i never dress up when i go out to a posh place. you get better service 'cause they don't think you're a pleb.


i always book a table for an extra place, then say 'keith couldn't make it tonight, mick's going senile and he had to go round', then later i say 'keith would really like this' and angle for money off the bill for recommending to the rolling stones. works, too, which is most surprising.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 12, 2013)

Agent Sparrow said:


> And tbh I feel that way about the champagne by the glass too! I did do this in London once, for my birthday, at Tower 42. Sunset across the sprawl of London from high up is a bit more special than Brixton market


i get that every night from my flat high up in a tower block. only i have fizzy water and not champagne


----------



## tommers (Oct 12, 2013)

Agent Sparrow said:


> Tbf it was only one glass cos that's all we felt we could afford, and I did feel a bit uncomfortable there too but from the other angle! (i.e. I had dressed up all nicely for my birthday treat, and it was full of casually dressed rich people who presumably do it all the time )



Ha! I've done that before.

My mate at work is going to a posh hotel for afternoon tea.  25 quid but she doesn't drink and she's meeting up with her mates.  Sounds nice.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 12, 2013)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> i get that every night from my flat high up in a tower block. only i have fizzy water and not champagne



In a flute or your usual beaker?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 12, 2013)

Badgers said:


> In a flute or your usual beaker?


neither, i use a glass. i used to use a flute but it all ran out one end


----------



## boohoo (Oct 12, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> i get that every night from my flat high up in a tower block. only i have fizzy water and not champagne



You have a flat in a tower block? Council or HA?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 12, 2013)

boohoo said:


> You have a flat in a tower block? Council or HA?


council. it's no laughing matter.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 12, 2013)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> council. it's no laughing matter.



The Shard?


----------



## tommers (Oct 12, 2013)

Badgers said:


> The Shard?



Barbican.


----------



## boohoo (Oct 12, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> council. it's no laughing matter.



Do they not maintain it? I lived in a tower block once - Nice space inside the flats but didn't like the lifts. Council rents are better than private rents!


----------



## Agent Sparrow (Oct 12, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> i get that every night from my flat high up in a tower block. only i have fizzy water and not champagne


Business opportunity? 

"Real Urbanz Fizzy Water Bar"


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 12, 2013)

boohoo said:


> Do they not maintain it? I lived in a tower block once - Nice space inside the flats but didn't like the lifts. Council rents are better than private rents!


no ha here.


----------



## boohoo (Oct 12, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> no ha here.


HA rents still better than private rents.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 12, 2013)

Did any real deprived poor local people turn out to this demo to show their disaproval at the champagne flaunting?

When I popped along it was just your usual posh playing poor students and some rag tag oldies (old students! failed artists! people who went to a rave and never came home!)

I know some of the people in those photos and they don't have a hard life.....or live in Brixton.

The cheesy frottage staff looked bored, the security guards looked slightly less bored.

It was wet, and that wasn't just the weather.


----------



## Rushy (Oct 12, 2013)

It was certainly pretty lame given the DIE YUPPIE SCUM hype. The level of conviction needed to create or post on a Facebook page and like an event is clearly pretty low. But it looked like a good opportunity for some old friends to get together and reminisce about protests past so all was not lost.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 12, 2013)

Anyone know what hourly wage the bored staff are on? I applied for a job but was ignored


----------



## gaijingirl (Oct 12, 2013)

Nanker Phelge said:


> people who went to a rave and never came home


----------



## editor (Oct 12, 2013)

Dan U said:


> Not even on a long new years etc, booze and accompaniments? You must get bought a lot of pints!


To be honest, I'm struggling to think of such a time, although it may have possible happened somewhere. My tastes are decidedly downmarket!

Still struggling to see what the point is here, mind.


----------



## editor (Oct 12, 2013)

Give the actual, entirely peaceful events of yesterday, I wonder if some people are feeling a bit silly after posting up all that frothing hyperbole about terrified shopkeepers etc etc.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 12, 2013)

Never been to Cardiff Baaaaay?


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Oct 12, 2013)

Nanker Phelge said:


> I know some of the people in those photos and they don't have a hard life.....or live in Brixton.


I gave birth to one of the people in the photo and she thinks she has a hard life


----------



## editor (Oct 12, 2013)

Nanker Phelge said:


> When I popped along it was just your usual posh playing poor students and some rag tag oldies (old students! failed artists! people who went to a rave and never came home!)


With that exhibition of dismissive stereotyping, a job at the Daily Mail awaits you.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Oct 12, 2013)

An event called 'Yuppies Out' can't really be complaining about dismissive stereotyping tbf.


----------



## secateurz (Oct 12, 2013)

colour me surprised that it boiled down to nothing. The peasants are revolting.


----------



## DRINK? (Oct 12, 2013)

And relax it's all 'fizz'led out


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 12, 2013)

editor said:


> With that exhibition of dismissive stereotyping, a job at the Daily Mail awaits you.



I can only dream.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 12, 2013)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> An event called 'Yuppies Out' can't really be complaining about dismissive stereotyping tbf.



I was trying to figure out today what makes a 21st century yuppy? What's the criteria for inclusion into the yuppy fold. Do yuppies call themselves yuppies? Or is just a 'dismissive stereotype' hurled around by yardi-da revolutionaries in the hood? Is there a dress code or a style of yuppy music? Or is it just a wage bracket and a mortgage in a post code of gentrification?

Perhaps I shall use this research to write my first daily mail article.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 12, 2013)

Miss-Shelf said:


> I gave birth to one of the people in the photo and she thinks she has a hard life



She want to live like common people....

Until her Iphone breaks and needs replacing.....


----------



## nagapie (Oct 12, 2013)

Nanker Phelge said:


> people who went to a rave and never came home!





Actually, I think that might be me


----------



## T & P (Oct 12, 2013)

editor said:


> Give the actual, entirely peaceful events of yesterday, I wonder if some people are feeling a bit silly after posting up all that frothing hyperbole about terrified shopkeepers etc etc.


Not sure if anyone was concerned about terrified shopkeepers but, TBF, I couldn't have blamed the employees of owners of C&F being very worried after looking at the number of 'likes' received by the Yuppies Out FB page.

As it turned out numbers in attendance were low and the protest was indeed good humoured and peaceful. Had most of the many hundreds of people who liked the FB page, instead of 20-odd people who actually attended, shown up outside the place, I think C&F would have had very good reason to be concerned.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 12, 2013)

nagapie said:


> Actually, I think that might be me



Is there an important part of your brain haunting the 414?


----------



## Winot (Oct 12, 2013)

OK, let's forget about the socioeconomic impact for a moment and take a look at the cheese:







Mimolette, Bleu de Chèvre, Tomme de Brebis and Brillat Savarin. 

As noted above, the range is impressive. They are a bit disorganised as you'd expect on day two - there is a French guy called Jerome who really knows his stuff and 3-4 young helpers who are a bit helpless. Apparently the range is broader in Brixton than in Covent Garden, which is mainly a bar. They also have cured meats (mainly saucisson) and chutneys/biscuits etc. 

The selection shown above is probably a good 10-12 adult portions and cost £30. It's certainly on a par with Cannon and Cannon and may be less expensive. 

I didn't see any Dairylea.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 12, 2013)

Winot said:


> OK, let's forget about the socioeconomic impact for a moment...



You already did that.


----------



## Belushi (Oct 12, 2013)

I really want cheese and wine tonight now


----------



## Manter (Oct 12, 2013)

I want cheese...


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Oct 12, 2013)

Nanker Phelge said:


> She want to live like common people....
> 
> Until her Iphone breaks and needs replacing.....


actually I dont think she does want to live like common people...which is why she thinks shes had a hard life


----------



## editor (Oct 12, 2013)

T & P said:


> Not sure if anyone was concerned about terrified shopkeepers but, TBF, I couldn't have blamed the employees of owners of C&F being very worried after looking at the number of 'likes' received by the Yuppies Out FB page.
> 
> As it turned out numbers in attendance were low and the protest was indeed good humoured and peaceful. Had most of the many hundreds of people who liked the FB page, instead of 20-odd people who actually attended, shown up outside the place, I think C&F would have had very good reason to be concerned.


Do their events have a history of violence then?


----------



## nagapie (Oct 12, 2013)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Is there an important part of your brain haunting the 414?



Not the 414 but various other techno settings around the capital. My family are still waiting for me to come home.


----------



## gaijingirl (Oct 12, 2013)

I think I left a part of my brain inside the 414...


----------



## leanderman (Oct 12, 2013)

Livarot and bleu des causses. Fair bit of cheese for £10.


----------



## gaijingirl (Oct 12, 2013)

leanderman said:


> Livarot and bleu des causses. Fair bit of cheese for £10.



and a free pizza?


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 12, 2013)

Excellent thread for letting you know who is who and what they are in brixton.


----------



## Dexter Deadwood (Oct 12, 2013)

Put your pretentious smelly cheeses away.


----------



## Winot (Oct 12, 2013)

leanderman said:


> bleu des causses



Tried some of that in the shop - really good.


----------



## Ms T (Oct 12, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Excellent thread for letting you know who is who and what they are in brixton.



Some people like cheese.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 12, 2013)

Dexter Deadwood said:


> Put your pretentious smelly cheeses away.



Unpretentious cheese


----------



## T & P (Oct 12, 2013)

editor said:


> Do their events have a history of violence then?



I'm not suggesting for a moment that people sympathising with Yuppies Out movement or simply concerned with the gentrification and social cleansing issues are the violent type... But C&F would not know that, and more to the point, it wouldn't be the first time that third parties showed up at an event posted on FB, or at a street demo/ gathering, with ill intentions.

Especially when the event promoted is about targeting a specific business, and the FB page promoting it has less than savoury comments regarding putting bricks through windows or defending Brixton against 'scum'.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 12, 2013)

Ms T said:


> Some people like cheese.


That's about the context free size of it isn't it, that's how it appears to people on the other end of those unequal relations i talked about (possibly paid by for by the scrounger bashing BBC public purse). Just choice. Pure choice. Not choice limited by the social relations that an elite benefit from - just choice alone. Jesus christ.


----------



## ffsear (Oct 12, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> That's about the context free size of it isn't it, that's how it appears to people on the other end of those unequal relations i talked about (possibly paid by for by the scrounger bashing BBC public purse). Just choice. Pure choice. Not choice limited by the social relations that an elite benefit from - just choice alone. Jesus christ.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 12, 2013)

ffsear said:


>



No thanks, and stop the pms too please.


----------



## Ms T (Oct 12, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> That's about the context free size of it isn't it, that's how it appears to people on the other end of those unequal relations i talked about (possibly paid by for by the scrounger bashing BBC public purse). Just choice. Pure choice. Not choice limited by the social relations that an elite benefit from - just choice alone. Jesus christ.



I was being somewhat flippant. I am fully aware of the inequalities of life but I also don't see anything wrong with spending disposable income on cheese.  That some people don't have any disposable income is a separate issue.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 12, 2013)

Ms T said:


> I was being somewhat flippant. I am fully aware of the inequalities of life but I also don't see anything wrong with spending disposable income on cheese.  That some people don't have any disposable income is a separate issue.


It's entirely connected with the social legitimation of these places and thus the wider social relations  that they are product of. Why aren't the cheese people, the people who 'dropped in' demanding cheap cheese for all and organising demos in support of the demand? Because they don't give a shit do they? That's the actual answer.


----------



## ddraig (Oct 12, 2013)

Ms T said:


> Some people like cheese.


some people like to somehow show off their wealth and be defensive about it at the same time


----------



## ddraig (Oct 12, 2013)

and those people on high incomes who spend £8 a day on fags bloody well earned it!


----------



## ffsear (Oct 12, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> and stop the pms too please.




 private messages?


----------



## leanderman (Oct 12, 2013)

Winot said:


> Tried some of that in the shop - really good.



Guy who served me really knew his stuff.

No epoisses though!


----------



## hipipol (Oct 12, 2013)

"Brilliant, brilliant, potentially lethally expensive place - top quality cheeses of all varieties including a large and very clearly labelled vegetarian selection"
http://www.yelp.co.uk/biz/cheese-block-london

We in the more cultured South East of our City have had such options for yonks


----------



## discobastard (Oct 12, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> It's entirely connected with the social legitimation of these places and thus the wider social relations  that they are product of. Why aren't the cheese people, the people who 'dropped in' demanding cheap cheese for all and organising demos in support of the demand? Because they don't give a shit do they? That's the actual answer.


That's *your* answer.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 12, 2013)

discobastard said:


> That's *your* answer.


It's the right answer.


----------



## leanderman (Oct 12, 2013)

hipipol said:


> "Brilliant, brilliant, potentially lethally expensive place - top quality cheeses of all varieties including a large and very clearly labelled vegetarian selection"
> http://www.yelp.co.uk/biz/cheese-block-london
> 
> We in the more cultured South East of our City have had such options for yonks



From the picture, it looks like they sell champagne and high-end wine next door too!


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 12, 2013)

leanderman said:


> From the picture, it looks like they sell champagne and high-end wine next door too!


Thank you for the info for expanding the targets.


----------



## leanderman (Oct 12, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Thank you for the info for expanding the targets.



Here to help


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 12, 2013)

leanderman said:


> Here to help


Only some people though.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 12, 2013)

A few people have said things to the effect of "I wouldn't mind going out for a glass of champagne (and maybe some cheese) for a treat but I'd go somewhere posh, not Granville Arcade". Which I think might be a reasonably common sentiment, and one of which the people setting this place up would be aware.

What does it therefore say that they are indeed setting up a champagne and cheese bar there? What are they trying to do?


----------



## T & P (Oct 12, 2013)

Perhaps it just says that no food or drink should actually have a class tag attached to it, and that plenty of people from non-wealthy backgrounds and neighbourhoods might actually enjoy treating themselves to a bit of nice bubbly and cheese from time to time. Just saying, like...


----------



## killer b (Oct 12, 2013)

fr


FridgeMagnet said:


> A few people have said things to the effect of "I wouldn't mind going out for a glass of champagne (and maybe some cheese) for a treat but I'd go somewhere posh, not Granville Arcade". Which I think might be a reasonably common sentiment, and one of which the people setting this place up would be aware.
> 
> What does it therefore say that they are indeed setting up a champagne and cheese bar there? What are they trying to do?


sounds like they're doing a cheese/wine shop rather than a bar?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 12, 2013)

T & P said:


> Perhaps it just says that no food or drink should actually have a class tag attached to it, and that plenty of people from non-wealthy backgrounds and neighbourhoods might actually enjoy treating themselves to a bit of nice bubbly and cheese from time to time. Just saying, like...


No, it doesn't say that, not what they're doing and how.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 12, 2013)

T & P said:


> Perhaps it just says that no food or drink should actually have a class tag attached to it, and that plenty of people from non-wealthy backgrounds and neighbourhoods might actually enjoy treating themselves to a bit of nice bubbly and cheese from time to time. Just saying, like...


You are all free to live under this bridge of course.


----------



## Ms T (Oct 12, 2013)

leanderman said:


> Guy who served me really knew his stuff.
> 
> No epoisses though!


Must have sold out because it was there yesterday.


----------



## leanderman (Oct 12, 2013)

Ms T said:


> Must have sold out because it was there yesterday.



They had an equivalent brandy burgundy one.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Oct 12, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> A few people have said things to the effect of "I wouldn't mind going out for a glass of champagne (and maybe some cheese) for a treat but I'd go somewhere posh, not Granville Arcade". Which I think might be a reasonably common sentiment, and one of which the people setting this place up would be aware.
> 
> What does it therefore say that they are indeed setting up a champagne and cheese bar there? What are they trying to do?


They must have seen the type of people that Granville Arcade is attracting and decided that there's a market for their stuff. There are a few delis around there already.


----------



## leanderman (Oct 12, 2013)

sleaterkinney said:


> They must have seen the type of people that Granville Arcade is attracting and decided that there's a market for their stuff. There are a few delis around there already.



I was there for cheese at 12.30 and three tables were occupied: Two with pairs of young women drinking champagne, the other with a couple having coffee.


----------



## editor (Oct 12, 2013)

T & P said:


> I'm not suggesting for a moment that people sympathising with Yuppies Out movement or simply concerned with the gentrification and social cleansing issues are the violent type... But C&F would not know that, and more to the point, it wouldn't be the first time that third parties showed up at an event posted on FB, or at a street demo/ gathering, with ill intentions.
> 
> Especially when the event promoted is about targeting a specific business, and the FB page promoting it has less than savoury comments regarding putting bricks through windows or defending Brixton against 'scum'.


But, still, there is no history or violence associated with these events, even when loads of people turn up (as in the Thatcher party).

And how many comments did you actually see about 'throwing bricks through windows'? And did anyone agree with that?


----------



## T & P (Oct 12, 2013)

Further down the page I saw an appeal by the owners of the page to 'bring down' a woman by 'brick, bat, bullet or blade'. 

Regardless of whether they were joking or not, a website that implores its readers to brick, smash, shoot or stab a woman on sight comes across as a nasty, unpleasant piece of work indeed.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 12, 2013)

sleaterkinney said:


> They must have seen the type of people that Granville Arcade is attracting and decided that there's a market for their stuff. There are a few delis around there already.


I would propose that they think that there's an emerging social group in the area that would partake of luxury champagne and cheese establishments (i.e. yes to a degree) and also that the shop's presence will accelerate its emergence and help "rebrand" the area. In other words it's a sign of a particular phase of social colonisation. This isn't some new wine/cheese place that's popped into existence just for Brixton, it's an expansion of a existing brand that uses very clear social signifiers.


----------



## editor (Oct 12, 2013)

T & P said:


> Further down the page I saw an appeal by the owners of the page to 'bring down' a woman by 'brick, bat, bullet or blade'.


Any chance of some context to that comment?


----------



## Yelkcub (Oct 12, 2013)

editor said:


> Any chance of some context to that comment?



I'm not sure if I was the target of a protest and the organisers posted something like that online I'd be thinking there was a context that was acceptable? 

I can see why this shop isn't popular, but that's not on.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 12, 2013)

T & P said:


> Further down the page I saw an appeal by the owners of the page to 'bring down' a woman by 'brick, bat, bullet or blade'.



Whilst that was a fairly horrid post, it wasn't in relation to cheesyfizz.

It was about that rotten posh woman who was on the apprentice and hates 'chavvy' names.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 12, 2013)

A criticism I'd lay at their door would be that they only sell Champagne. There are many other fine fizzy wines, and just stocking Champagne is simply snobbery. IMO a real wine lover would be presenting people with other wine that is also very fine. 

In that sense, the shop is gimmicky and lacking in genuine class.


----------



## spanglechick (Oct 12, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> A criticism I'd lay at their door would be that they only sell Champagne. There are many other fine fizzy wines, and just stocking Champagne is simply snobbery. IMO a real wine lover would be presenting people with other wine that is also very fine.
> 
> In that sense, the shop is gimmicky and lacking in genuine class.


and no english cheeses by the sounds of it.  it seems to be a french-themed thing.  but that's limiting. how many customers go to buy either cheese or wine and make their decisions based on nationality?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 12, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> and no english cheeses by the sounds of it.  it seems to be a french-themed thing.  but that's limiting. how many customers go to buy either cheese or wine and make their decisions based on nationality?


I guess their argument would be that France is the place they have built up relations with suppliers, that they source direct from producers following tasting trips (which I'm sure they do), and that this happens to be the area they know. 

Which is fine, tbh, but sits more easily somewhere like Borough Market. They'd find a more comfortable place somewhere like Borough Market, I'd have thought, with a stall next door to someone who does the same thing in Spain, and someone else who does it in Italy.


----------



## Belushi (Oct 12, 2013)

I bought some nice cheese from a farmers market in the end, which I'm now enjoying with some claret while listening to Massive Attack.

I am fucking rocking the middle age thing


----------



## editor (Oct 12, 2013)

Yelkcub said:


> I'm not sure if I was the target of a protest and the organisers posted something like that online I'd be thinking there was a context that was acceptable? .


It's a horrible comment and I'd never condone such words, but it seems it had nothing to do with this protest, which was what was being suggested.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 12, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> A criticism I'd lay at their door would be that they only sell Champagne. There are many other fine fizzy wines, and just stocking Champagne is simply snobbery. IMO a real wine lover would be presenting people with other wine that is also very fine.
> 
> In that sense, the shop is gimmicky and lacking in genuine class.


Class war 2013


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 12, 2013)

What would proper class be, the same social relations but a better chosen menu. Fucking hell. What a list of dicks this thread has provided.


----------



## editor (Oct 12, 2013)

I like the vintage English cheddar from Iceland. £3 for a hefty chuck, or two packs for £5. Lovely stuff.


----------



## tufty79 (Oct 12, 2013)

tramps' buffet waitrose goats cheese for 89p for me. easily eaten in one evening before the sellby date expires (you know what i mean)

mmm. cheese.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 12, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> What would proper class be, the same social relations but a better chosen menu. Fucking hell. What a list of dicks this thread has provided.


What? Don't be a total cock. Look at the context I was using the word 'class' in.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 12, 2013)

Do your rich stuff _tastefully _please.


----------



## T & P (Oct 12, 2013)

editor said:


> Any chance of some context to that comment?


It was not related to the C&F issue, but directed towards a former Apprentice contestant. Not that it should matter really, should it? Still completely unacceptable, vile shit.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 12, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> What? Don't be a total cock. Look at the context I was using the word 'class' in.


I did. I took the whole context of your dire privilege defending posts into account.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 12, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> I did. I took the whole context of your dire privilege defending posts into account.


You are _such_ an inverted snob.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 12, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> You are _such_ an inverted snob.


And you have _so many_ ways to tell me why i am actually a 'chav'' No that you need that many.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 12, 2013)

Privilege is bad for this anarchist unless it is earned and doesn't produce more privilege. Run those figures by me again lbj?


----------



## T & P (Oct 12, 2013)

editor said:


> It's a horrible comment and I'd never condone such words, but it seems it had nothing to do with this protest, which was what was being suggested.


I never suggested (or certainly did not intend to) that it was linked to last night. Our discussion had been about whether people's unease about a mass protest promoted by Yuppies Out might have been justified. And regardless of whether that particular comment on their website was related to last night's events or not, I would suggest that that it is perfectly justified to be very worried by a group organising a protest against you who thinks it's acceptable to urge others to stab and shoot individuals. Because after reading that FB page for a just a couple of minutes, they start to come across as a deeply unpleasant bunch.


----------



## editor (Oct 12, 2013)

T & P said:


> I never suggested (or certainly did not intend to) that it was linked to last night. Our discussion had been about whether people's unease about a mass protest promoted by Yuppies Out might have been justified. And regardless of whether that particular comment on their website was related to last night's events or not, I would suggest that that it is perfectly justified to be very worried by a group organising a protest against you who thinks it's acceptable to urge others to stab and shoot individuals. Because after reading that FB page for a just a couple of minutes, they start to come across as a deeply unpleasant bunch.


Engage hyperbolic mode! 

Did you go the protest? Nobody was scared. Bemused at best. That's why there was no heavy police presence and the whole thing was very good natured.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 12, 2013)

It's good that they effortlessly segued from dangerous violent anarchist bullies to ineffectual middle class art school wankers. At least that's what I took from this thread.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 12, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> It's good that they effortlessly segued from dangerous violent anarchist bullies to ineffectual middle class art school wankers. At least that's what I took from this thread.


And nary a word explaining this shift inbetween. At least not on the part of the boosters of the former idea. Heads i win, tails, well my dear, you have lost again. _That's just the game._


----------



## boohoo (Oct 12, 2013)

T & P said:


> I never suggested (or certainly did not intend to) that it was linked to last night. Our discussion had been about whether people's unease about a mass protest promoted by Yuppies Out might have been justified. And regardless of whether that particular comment on their website was related to last night's events or not, I would suggest that that it is perfectly justified to be very worried by a group organising a protest against you who thinks it's acceptable to urge others to stab and shoot individuals. Because after reading that FB page for a just a couple of minutes, they start to come across as a deeply unpleasant bunch.



I agree with you. I don't like the Yuppies Out page. I am happy with the idea of getting rid of yuppies, getting rid of gentrification and making the world a better place but I do not like whatever Yuppies Out are trying to be.


----------



## boohoo (Oct 12, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> It's good that they effortlessly segued from dangerous violent anarchist bullies to ineffectual middle class art school wankers. At least that's what I took from this thread.



Are they meant to be anarchists?


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 12, 2013)

Jesus, where do you brixton 'i would protest _if_' people come from? It's not any world that i recognise.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 12, 2013)

boohoo said:


> Are they meant to be anarchists?


I heard some of them had samurai swords and snooker balls. Well, before about 5pm anyway, when they all grew skinny jeans and that haircut _you know the one_.


----------



## boohoo (Oct 12, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I heard some of them had samurai swords and snooker balls. Well, before about 5pm anyway, when they all grew skinny jeans and that haircut _you know the one_.



Did they have a tache too?


----------



## boohoo (Oct 12, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Jesus, where do you brixton 'i would protest _if_' people come from? It's not any world that i recognise.



So you not from Brixton?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 12, 2013)

boohoo said:


> Did they have a tache too?


_with a little bit of wax twirled at the ends_


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 12, 2013)

boohoo said:


> So you not from Brixton?


Bristol brixton handsworth. I'm a socialist not a snob.


----------



## Yelkcub (Oct 12, 2013)

editor said:


> It's a horrible comment and I'd never condone such words, but it seems it had nothing to do with this protest, which was what was being suggested.



Ah right, that is a little different, and makes sense re your request for context.


----------



## Yelkcub (Oct 12, 2013)

T & P said:


> would suggest that that it is perfectly justified to be very worried by a group organising a protest against you who thinks it's acceptable to urge others to stab and shoot individuals.



This makes sense too though


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 12, 2013)

Yelkcub said:


> This makes sense too though


Whilst not changing or critiquing at all the reasons for the disgust at their existence.


----------



## boohoo (Oct 12, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Bristol brixton handsworth. I'm a socialist not a snob.


Not saying you are a snob. Anyway, so when were you in Brixton?


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 12, 2013)

boohoo said:


> Not saying you are a snob. Anyway, so when were you in Brixton?


I've just explained the interconnected nature of british social relations to you. That response is pathetic.


----------



## salem (Oct 12, 2013)

editor said:


> Cash strapped parents and the folks on my estate might struggle to feed their families on these kind of expensive cheeses, so I would argue that the stuff Fromage is selling is most certainly targeted at a wealthier demographic.


 I doubt _anyone _will be 'feeding their families' on these expensive cheeses.

I have a mate who isn't really into pubs. When we hang out we might get a nice bottle of wine and a couple of decent steaks and chill in. Costs the same as a few pints in the local. Maybe next time we'll put a fiver towards up some nice cheese as well.


----------



## spanglechick (Oct 12, 2013)

tbf, katie hopkins is a vile tory bogeyman who has taken on mythical villain status, and for good reason.

it's like Michael Gove.  There are various posts on the gove thread in which I, and others describe brutal acts of fantasy violence.  It's not the same as someone making violently descriptive comments about some common or garden tory scummer.  the latter would be much more worrying.


----------



## editor (Oct 12, 2013)

salem said:


> Maybe next time we'll put a fiver towards up some nice cheese as well.


Put in another £2.50 and you can enjoy a small glass of champagne and watch the poor people go by!


----------



## boohoo (Oct 12, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> I've just explained the interconnected nature of british social relations to you. That response is pathetic.



I do not have the academic background to understand your responses. Please explain yourself more clearly.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 12, 2013)

boohoo said:


> I do not have the academic background to understand your responses. Please explain yourself more clearly.


I think you've been given all the response that your question requires.


----------



## boohoo (Oct 12, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> I think you've been given all the response that your question requires.



Really - that's a lazy response. I don't understand you. You can't be bothered to explain your thinking clearly to me when I asked. This just feels like someone looking down their nose at me.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 12, 2013)

boohoo said:


> Really - that's a lazy response. I don't understand you. You can't be bothered to explain your thinking clearly to me when I asked. This just feels like someone looking down their nose at me.


I'm not, that's all your get back to communist russia response deserved though.


----------



## boohoo (Oct 12, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> I'm not, that's all your get back to communist russia response deserved though.



I will send you some ((())). You clearly feel unsettled by this questioning.


----------



## T & P (Oct 12, 2013)

editor said:


> Engage hyperbolic mode!
> Did you go the protest? Nobody was scared. Bemused at best. That's why there was no heavy police presence and the whole thing was very good natured.


Yes, that is what happened. But the C&F lot had no way of knowing how things would turn out.

Do you really think a group whose FB page, amongst other things, asks its followers to stab and shoot individuals and speaks of driving out 'scum' (i.e. 'you'), organises a party targeting you that attracts hundreds of likes is nothing to worry about? Really? Would _you_ be cool and carefree if you were to open a business in an area new to you, and were specifically targeted by a local group with hundreds of followers and a website with more than its fair share of deeply unpleasant bile on it?

I have nothing but respect for those who turned up at the protest, even if I don't necessarily think it was productive, or the thing to do. But you cannot (or at least should not) ignore the fact that there were some pretty fucking unpalatable aspects to the 'official' FB campaign and those behind it.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 12, 2013)

Fuck 'em. Jesus. I hope they did feel threatened. Forget your mealy mouthed nothing but respect lie -  the whole point of it was to a) threaten them and b) organise mass threatening.


----------



## editor (Oct 12, 2013)

T & P said:


> Do you really think a group whose FB page, amongst other things, asks its followers to stab and shoot individuals and speaks of driving out 'scum' (i.e. 'you'), organises a party targeting you that attracts hundreds of likes is nothing to worry about? Really? Would _you_ be cool and carefree if you were to open a business in an area new to you, and were specifically targeted by a local group with hundreds of followers and a website with more than its fair share of deeply unpleasant bile on it?


Who are these "followers"who blindly go around stabbing, shooting and 'driving scum' out of an area just because a single post on a not-entirely-serious Facebook page says so? Oh, I know who they are. They're all in your head.

Or if you're still unsure that you're blowing it all out of proportion in a comically large fashion, ask yourself this: why do you think the place wasn't lined with riot cops ready to take on the mobs of gun-toting and knife wielding crazies? 

And why were all the businesses open as usual, including the owner of Fish,Wings and Tings who happily came out to take photos for his own facebook page and have a chat and a laugh?


----------



## Winot (Oct 12, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I would propose that they think that there's an emerging social group in the area that would partake of luxury champagne and cheese establishments (i.e. yes to a degree) and also that the shop's presence will accelerate its emergence and help "rebrand" the area. In other words it's a sign of a particular phase of social colonisation. This isn't some new wine/cheese place that's popped into existence just for Brixton, it's an expansion of a existing brand that uses very clear social signifiers.



I think you're over-thinking things. I think they want to make some money.


----------



## ChrisFilter (Oct 12, 2013)

Yeah. Brixton is now a 'foodie destination'. It's a very logical place for them to open. 

I can help but think all this Yuppies Out stuff is 10 years too late. And u75 probably had a hand in Brixton's gentrification. It's certainly what lead to move moving in all those years ago.


----------



## T & P (Oct 12, 2013)

editor said:


> Who are these "followers"who blindly go around stabbing, shooting and 'driving scum' out of an area just because a single post on a not-entirely-serious Facebook page says so? Oh, I know who they are. They're all in your head.
> 
> Or if you're still unsure that you're blowing it all out of proportion in a comically large fashion, ask yourself this: why do you think the place wasn't lined with riot cops ready to take on the mobs of gun-toting and knife wielding crazies?
> 
> And why were all the businesses open as usual, including the owner of Fish,Wings and Tings who happily came out to take photos for his own facebook page and have a chat and a laugh?


 Way to avoid the question   What relevance does the eventual outcome have to the preceding campaign? Or do you think that if nothing materialises on the night, nothing that went on beforehand mattered?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 12, 2013)

Winot said:


> I think you're over-thinking things. I think they want to make some money.


I think you're under-thinking things. I think they know what they're doing.

This thread is funny in the way that there's so much under-thinking, though. It's like this shop just appeared out of nowhere, there's no meaning to how it's set up or to how and what it sells. It might as well be a qwerty and asdf shop. Oh but _your pub_ sells qwerty for £1 less a uiop - you hypocrite. Why do you hate qwerty anyway, I like a nice uiop of qwerty every now and then, and they sell more asdf than they serve, and you can get asdf for less than beer.


----------



## editor (Oct 12, 2013)

T & P said:


> Way to avoid the question   What relevance does the eventual outcome have to the preceding campaign? Or do you think that if nothing materialises on the night, nothing that went on beforehand mattered?


It appears that you're the only person who took those comments seriously. 

Your attempts to suggest that this one comment amongst thousands made up some sort of credible threat strike me as rather odd - even more so considering the fact that they_ didn't even relate to the protest!_


----------



## editor (Oct 12, 2013)

One notable thing that did come out of talking to some of the traders yesterday was that most of the early units in the Village were taken over by local traders and local start ups, or people with local connections. That now has shifted to upmarket West End brands and chains looking to lucratively expand their franchise in the area. I'd say that makes a big difference.


----------



## salem (Oct 12, 2013)

editor said:


> Put in another £2.50 and you can enjoy a small glass of champagne and watch the poor people go by!


----------



## T & P (Oct 12, 2013)

editor said:


> It appears that you're the only person who took those comments seriously.
> 
> Your attempts to suggest that this one comment amongst thousands made up some sort of credible threat strike me as rather odd - even more so considering the fact that they_ didn't even relate to the protest!_


 So a worrying about a group whose FB page has a range of material ranging from the regrettable to the outright deplorable and fucking unacceptable strikes you as odd because only part of it relates to their current campaign?

I guess we're not going to agree on anything here, but it does seem to me that you're going out of your way to dismiss certain stuff as insignificant that is nothing of the sort, and to brush aside perfectly justified concerns as unfounded hysteria.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 12, 2013)

T & P said:


> So a worrying about a group whose FB page has a range of material ranging from the regrettable to the outright deplorable and fucking unacceptable strikes you as odd because only part of it relates to their current campaign?
> 
> I guess we're not going to agree on anything here, but it does seem to me that you're going out of your way to dismiss certain stuff as insignificant that is nothing of the sort, and to brush aside  as unfounded hysteria.


Or you are posting unfounded hysteria (sexist) as fact in order to _make certain stuff_ into perfectly justified concerns.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 12, 2013)

I'm a bit confused here - is this a new formulation entirely, "ineffectual middle class hipsters who were nevertheless violent anarchist bullies because of Facebook"? Good call if so, that's a new one which manages to get everything in with a bit of "social media = riots" stuff added.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 12, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I'm a bit confused here - is this a new formulation entirely, "ineffectual middle class hipsters who were nevertheless violent anarchist bullies because of Facebook"? Good call if so, that's a new one which manages to get everything in with a bit of "social media = riots" stuff added.


It's the _new _circle. We're outside of of course, being privileged one-eyed knobs.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 12, 2013)

Names _are _going to be named after this.


----------



## DRINK? (Oct 12, 2013)

Dunno why anyone felt threatened it was always destined to flop.

Someone should produce a graph plotting the inverse proportionality of internet discussion on protest / direct action etc chest thumping against the impotent reality


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 12, 2013)

boohoo said:


> I do not have the academic background to understand your responses. Please explain yourself more clearly.



This for example

Its no accident that inequality is rising faster now than it did under Thatcher.  

This is happening all over the country. Bristol, Brixton and Handsworth included.

What needs to be asked is why there is not more social conflict. As there was under Thatcher.


----------



## editor (Oct 12, 2013)

T & P said:


> So a worrying about a group whose FB page has a range of material ranging from the regrettable to the outright deplorable and fucking unacceptable strikes you as odd because only part of it relates to their current campaign?
> 
> I guess we're not going to agree on anything here, but it does seem to me that you're going out of your way to dismiss certain stuff as insignificant that is nothing of the sort, and to brush aside perfectly justified concerns as unfounded hysteria.


Most of the material posted on that Facebook was 'outraged' people slagging off the event. 

You haven't explained why these "perfectly justified concerns" brought no major response from the police or seemed to unduly perturb the shop units, who continued to trade as usual, by the way.


----------



## T & P (Oct 12, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Or you are posting unfounded hysteria (sexist) as fact in order to _make certain stuff_ into perfectly justified concerns.


Yeah, that's right. FB groups urging readers to stab and shot individuals and describing certain others as 'scum' and talking ceaselessly about forcing them out is perfectly normal, run-of-the-mill stuff, and anyone who thinks otherwise is completely over-reacting.


----------



## editor (Oct 12, 2013)

T & P said:


> Yeah, that's right. FB groups urging readers to stab and shot individuals and describing certain others as 'scum' and talking ceaselessly about forcing them out is perfectly normal, run-of-the-mill stuff, and anyone who thinks otherwise is completely over-reacting.


Is that what the Facebook page was all about then? Or are you referring to the one post _that wasn't even about the protest?_


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 12, 2013)

T & P said:


> Yeah, that's right. FB groups urging readers to stab and shot individuals and describing certain others as 'scum' and talking ceaselessly about forcing them out is perfectly normal, run-of-the-mill stuff, and anyone who thinks otherwise is completely over-reacting.


Given that this reading of the event had been exploded before you posted, i think you're being silly. Stupid even. 

I note your later suggestion that calling people scum is now equivalent to what you were complaining about. It's not. Grow up.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 12, 2013)

BRIXTON, LONDON, UK: Scientists develop a new breed of protestor, capable of being both threateningly violent and also useless / middle class / art-school-paid-for-by-parents / dole-sponging-get-a-job simultaneously. "This will save so much time," said Dr Firstname Lastname. "Previously, to criticise a protest you had to identify people as one or the other, but now all those arguments can be used simultaneously. Nobody will ever have to be worried when their stereotypes contradict any more."


----------



## keybored (Oct 12, 2013)

T & P said:


> Yeah, that's right. FB groups urging readers to stab and shot individuals and describing certain others as 'scum' and talking ceaselessly about forcing them out is perfectly normal, run-of-the-mill stuff, and anyone who thinks otherwise is completely over-reacting.


From what I remember of Facebook, yes it is, and yes they are.


----------



## T & P (Oct 12, 2013)

editor said:


> Most of the material posted on that Facebook was 'outraged' people slagging off the event. You haven't explained why these "perfectly justified concerns" brought no major response from the police or seemed to unduly perturb the shop units, who continued to trade as usual.


You continue to ignore the issue at hand: namely what effect it might have hand on the actual subjects of the campaign: the owners and staff of C&F. 

So I'll ask again: what does the fact that nothing happened at the end or that there was no riot police on the night got to do with the weeks-long campaign by Yuppies Out and the effect it might have had on the owners and staff of C&F?

Now you might not happen to give a shit about them and be of the opinion that they deserved every minute of worrying they might have gone through, but the point remains that the eventual uneventful outcome does not justify some of the shit posted by YO, and more to the point, *C&F had no way of knowing how things were going to turn out until the very moment of their opening night.*


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 12, 2013)

Why is that the issue at hand? It's not for me. It's not for others. When exactly *did you *decide that it was for the rest of us?


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 12, 2013)

T & P said:


> You continue to ignore the issue at hand: namely what effect it might have hand on the actual subjects of the campaign: the owners and staff of C&F.
> 
> So I'll ask again: what does the fact that nothing happened at the end or that there was no riot police on the night got to do with the weeks-long campaign by Yuppies Out and the effect it might have had on the owners and staff of C&F?
> 
> Now you might not happen to give a shit about them and be of the opinion that they deserved every minute of worrying they might have gone through, but the point remains that the eventual uneventful outcome does not justify some of the shit posted by YO, and more to the point, *C&F had no way of knowing how things were going to turn out until the very moment of their opening night.*


You'd have loved the 80s.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 12, 2013)

The Albert (not posh) was really busy on food sales today. I would guess BV was busier. How is C&F doing? Does anyone know if their offer is popular?


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 12, 2013)

T & P said:


> You continue to ignore the issue at hand: namely what effect it might have hand on the actual subjects of the campaign: the owners and staff of C&F.
> 
> So I'll ask again: what does the fact that nothing happened at the end or that there was no riot police on the night got to do with the weeks-long campaign by Yuppies Out and the effect it might have had on the owners and staff of C&F?
> 
> Now you might not happen to give a shit about them and be of the opinion that they deserved every minute of worrying they might have gone through, but the point remains that the eventual uneventful outcome does not justify some of the shit posted by YO, and more to the point, *C&F had no way of knowing how things were going to turn out until the very moment of their opening night.*



Your bold is good not bad.


----------



## T & P (Oct 12, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Why is that the issue at hand? It's not for me. It's not for others. When exactly *did you *decide that it was for the rest of us?


No it's not. It relates to the discussion Editor and I started having three pages back.


----------



## T & P (Oct 12, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Your bold is good not bad.


Yay! Online bullying FTW


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 12, 2013)

T & P said:


> No it's not. It relates to the discussion Editor and I started having three pages back.


Which, of course, only relates to you two.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 12, 2013)

T & P said:


> Yay! Online bullying FTW


I don't know how to respond to this idiocy. For idiocy it is. Disagreeing with you is bullying? I  can see why disagreeing with more than that you looks like bullying then you clown.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 13, 2013)

T & P said:


> Yay! Online bullying FTW


It's like something the Nazis would have done tbh.


----------



## T & P (Oct 13, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> I don't know how to respond to this idiocy. For idiocy it is. Disagreeing with you is bullying? I  can see why disagreeing with more than that you looks like bullying then you clown.


 Not bullying me. Bullying the staff and owners of C&F though a deeply fucking unpleasant weeks-long campaign through the Yuppies Out FB page.


----------



## T & P (Oct 13, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Which, of course, only relates to you two.


Which would be why I was quoting him and replying to him.


----------



## cesare (Oct 13, 2013)

T & P said:


> No bullying me. Bullying the staff and owners of C&F though a deeply fucking unpleasant weeks-long campaign through the Yuppies Out FB campaign.


(((Oppressed wealthy people )))


----------



## keybored (Oct 13, 2013)

If only they could find the "Log off" button to cease this relentless bullying


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 13, 2013)

Are there any cliches we haven't had here btw?

* Protestors as violent (BULLYING) thugs
* Protestors as useless middle class art school sorts
* Get a job, you couldn't be there if you had a job
* It's not going to do anything, give up, Brixton is already gentrified
* Why don't you protest against X Y or Z who are just as bad
* How can anyone protest about this when there's (A B C) still happening {i.e. "whataboutery"}
* "Your" pub sells champagne and this is all about champagne
* Similarly, what's wrong with cheese?
* Nobody's really being forced out of Brixton anyway, they just sell up and make a profit
* It's a natural process, it's the way of the world etc etc

There must be more. It's 50 pages though, I'm not going through them all right now, give us a bit.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 13, 2013)

T & P said:


> Not bullying me. Bullying the staff and owners of C&F though a deeply fucking unpleasant weeks-long campaign through the Yuppies Out FB page.


This is a basically insulting corruption of the term "bullying". There are people who are actually bullied in the world, you know, they face aggressive personal attacks on a routine basis, ignored or supported by their social group, rather than have some Facebook aimed in the direction of the company they work for.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 13, 2013)

cesare said:


> (((Oppressed wealthy people )))


they're just hard working independent tradespeople working hard to make the hard working lives of the hard working people of brixton just a little bit more bubbly


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 13, 2013)

INDEPENDENT!!!!!!!!


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 13, 2013)

T & P said:


> Which would be why I was quoting him and replying to him.


Or quoting and replying to me.

This is mot def not your conversation anymore is it?


----------



## boohoo (Oct 13, 2013)

Gramsci said:


> What needs to be asked is why there is not more social conflict. As there was under Thatcher.



People are more distracted and apathetic about things? People are more selfish, that is if it isn't affecting them it doesn't matter? No hope in politics? Or protest? 

I don't see the poverty that I remember as a kid however I feel that the country is heading back to that.


----------



## treefrog (Oct 13, 2013)

I just read this whole thing from the first page..







The only good bits were the photos of delicious cheeses, and even then that was counteracted by knowing I live too far away from these cheeses. 

I wonder if they'll open in Auckland. Ponsonby or the Viaduct would be perfect.


----------



## goldenecitrone (Oct 13, 2013)

treefrog said:


> I just read this whole thing from the first page..
> 
> The only good bits were the photos of delicious cheeses, and even then that was counteracted by knowing I live too far away from these cheeses.
> 
> I wonder if they'll open in Auckland. Ponsonby or the Viaduct would be perfect.



Fascist White Family will be down there in a flash, trying to stop another Champagne Holocaust.


----------



## boohoo (Oct 13, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Are there any cliches we haven't had here btw?
> 
> * Protestors as violent (BULLYING) thugs
> * Protestors as useless middle class art school sorts
> ...



Is there some new rule in the urban FAQ that we must only post in agreement with the OP or get the fuck out of here? 

And btw FridgeMagnet you missed a few. 

*Any protest is valid
*At least someone is doing something
*protestors as rebels/anarchists


----------



## treefrog (Oct 13, 2013)

goldenecitrone said:


> Fascist White Family will be down there in a flash, trying to stop another Champagne Holocaust.


Where were they when hundreds of millions of tax dollars were being spent on a boat race held in another hemisphere?

That said, we're coming into spring and the Viaduct is just lovely for a spot of protesting and Veuve Cliquot this time of year


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 13, 2013)

*it's not a protest unless there is concomitant trots flogging special editions of the latest pravda


personally I love coming home knackered and laden down with trotlit, and I'm not even joking. It's just nice to have something left of pinochet to read.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 13, 2013)

Badgers said:


> The Albert (not posh) was really busy on food sales today. I would guess BV was busier. How is C&F doing? Does anyone know if their offer is popular?



How much is a glass of champagne in the Albert?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 13, 2013)

Nanker Phelge said:


> How much is a glass of champagne in the Albert?


you'll find out when cardiff win the league and editor buys a celebratory glass of bubbly


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 13, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Are there any cliches we haven't had here btw?
> 
> * Protestors as violent (BULLYING) thugs
> * Protestors as useless middle class art school sorts
> ...



Imagine.....50 pages of discussion and so many perspectives! It's almost like this is a forum or something!


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 13, 2013)

boohoo said:


> Is there some new rule in the urban FAQ that we must only post in agreement with the OP or get the fuck out of here?
> 
> And btw FridgeMagnet you missed a few.
> 
> ...


it's not a proper demo unless there's a helicopter


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 13, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> you'll find out when cardiff win the league and editor buys a celebratory glass of bubbly



His champagne campaign funds might stretch to a glass of verve.....but you can bring yer own iceland cheese.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 13, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> it's not a proper demo unless there's a helicopter



There may have been some helicopter parents waiting in the wings to drive the kids home when the 'demo' finished.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 13, 2013)

Nanker Phelge said:


> His champagne campaign funds might stretch to a glass of verve.....but you can bring yer own iceland cheese.


ICELAND cheese, eh? very niche


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 13, 2013)

Nanker Phelge said:


> There may have been some helicopter parents waiting in the wings to drive the kids home when the 'demo' finished.


police helicopter


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 13, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> ICELAND cheese, eh? very niche



It's a fair trade, guv!


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 13, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> police helicopter



To be fair, it's not often that the police helicopter isn't buzzing above Brixton. However, it was missing from the fake plastic cheese demo.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 13, 2013)

Nanker Phelge said:


> It's a fair trade, guv!


only place to stock that in brixton will be the chomping frotters


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 13, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> only place to stock that in brixton will be the chomping frotters



2 slabs for a fiver?


----------



## secateurz (Oct 13, 2013)

Edit wrong post


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 13, 2013)

secateurz said:


> Edit wrong post



How terrible is wisdom when it brings no profit to the wise, Johnny.....


----------



## shakespearegirl (Oct 13, 2013)

Badgers said:


> The Albert (not posh) was really busy on food sales today. I would guess BV was busier. How is C&F doing? Does anyone know if their offer is popular?



BV was really busy when I was there around half four. C&F seemed pretty busy as well.

Dave from the wine shop didn't seem terribly worried about C&F. Also found out he does a 5% discount on 6 bottles and 10% of 12 and free delivery locally


----------



## secateurz (Oct 13, 2013)

Gramsci said:


> This for example
> 
> Its no accident that inequality is rising faster now than it did under Thatcher.
> 
> ...



Internet, smartphones, social media, x factor, structural decline in education for 20 years.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 13, 2013)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Imagine.....50 pages of discussion and so many perspectives! It's almost like this is a forum or something!


That's not different perspectives, that's many attempts at putting forward a single selfish inaccurate perspective.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 13, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> That's not different perspectives, that's many attempts at putting forward a single selfish inaccurate perspective.



I never said different.


----------



## hipipol (Oct 13, 2013)

Brixton and Hackney were once rather posh - the size of some of the houses from the Victorian times is a bit of a giveaway - surely this is just a return to the "old days" with added fakery more suited to our modern era


----------



## leanderman (Oct 13, 2013)

hipipol said:


> Brixton and Hackney were once rather posh - the size of some of the houses from the Victorian times is a bit of a giveaway - surely this is just a return to the "old days" with added fakery more suited to our modern era



No. You are mistaken: Brixton dates back only to the 1970s. Before then it was fields.


----------



## goldenecitrone (Oct 13, 2013)

hipipol said:


> Brixton and Hackney were once rather posh - the size of some of the houses from the Victorian times is a bit of a giveaway - surely this is just a return to the "old days" with added fakery more suited to our modern era



The Reclaim the streets generation grew up and reclaimed the streets. Clue was in the name.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 13, 2013)

hipipol said:


> Brixton and Hackney were once rather posh - the size of some of the houses from the Victorian times is a bit of a giveaway - surely this is just a return to the "old days" with added fakery more suited to our modern era


Ah yes, a return to the Victorian social strata, huzzah! 
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk-most-unequal-country-in-the-west-1329614.html
We've got the workfare we just need some flop houses


----------



## ska invita (Oct 13, 2013)

ska invita said:


> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk-most-unequal-country-in-the-west-1329614.html


in fact if the UK is the most unequal country in the West, then Brixton has to be one of the most unequal spots within the UK, and  that is why this place is, to quote T & P out of context, "deeply fucking unpleasant"

ETA: just saw that article is from 1996 but dont let that get in the way of a good point


----------



## Ms T (Oct 13, 2013)

ska invita said:


> Ah yes, a return to the Victorian social strata, huzzah!
> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk-most-unequal-country-in-the-west-1329614.html
> We've got the workfare we just need some flop houses



I don't doubt that the UK is an unequal society, but that article is nearly twenty years old!


----------



## editor (Oct 13, 2013)

Here's a more up to date article about the widening gap between the poor and the rich. I don't imagine things have got any better since it was written. 


> *Gap between rich and poor growing fastest in Britain*
> *The gap between rich and poor has grown faster in Britain than in any other developed country over recent decades, research suggests.*
> The Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development, a leading economic forum, said that the wealthiest tenth of society now earn 12 times as much as the poorest, up from eight times as much in the 1980s.
> In addition the amount of total income taken by the top 1 per cent of earners - including bankers, managers and executives - has doubled to 14 per cent.
> ...


----------



## Manter (Oct 13, 2013)

Badgers said:


> The Albert (not posh) was really busy on food sales today. I would guess BV was busier. How is C&F doing? Does anyone know if their offer is popular?


Was v busy when I walked past today- all the tables were taken and there were 4 or 5 people waiting to be served in the deli bit. 

The Northerner  (who doesn't read these boards, Brixton blog etc, so was coming to it 'fresh') said he thought it looked a nice place, but in the wrong place- it looked like it had been parachuted in from Covent Garden. 

And some Anerican friends went to Honest burger in soho last night and said it was great but the portions were 'teensy' ((starving Texans))


----------



## ska invita (Oct 13, 2013)

Manter said:


> said he thought it looked a nice place, but in the wrong place


wrong place? Oh _you mean the poor people_ who are still there, don't worry, they'll be gone soon


----------



## editor (Oct 13, 2013)

Manter said:


> And some Anerican friends went to Honest burger in soho last night and said it was great but the portions were 'teensy' ((starving Texans))


Have to say I wasn't that impressed with Honest Burgers. The chips that everyone's been raving about really weren't that special at all. I mean, nice enough, but not _wowee amazing fab let me photo and blog it_ good..


----------



## marty21 (Oct 13, 2013)

ska invita said:


> wrong place? Oh _you mean the poor people_ who are still there, don't worry, they'll be gone soon


sounds like he thought it should be in Covent Garden


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 13, 2013)

ska invita said:


> wrong place? Oh _you mean the poor people_ who are still there, don't worry, they'll be gone soon



Who are the poor people? What were they doing in Brixton Village on Thursday that the arrival of frompagne marks the beginning of the end of?


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 13, 2013)

marty21 said:


> sounds like he thought it should be in Covent Garden



Or where the poor people are not.


----------



## Manter (Oct 13, 2013)

ska invita said:


> wrong place? Oh _you mean the poor people_ who are still there, don't worry, they'll be gone soon


Actually no, that's not what I meant, I think you may be projecting....

It has a glossy, corporate feel to it, IMO, that seems to be different to the hipstery, home spun, small businesses doing what they are passionate about aura that many of the outlets have. It looks more like a wahaca/brindisa than a federation coffee.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 13, 2013)

Manter said:


> The Northerner  (who doesn't read these boards, Brixton blog etc, so was coming to it 'fresh') said he thought it looked a nice place, but in the wrong place- it looked like it had been parachuted in from Covent Garden.



Is that Mark who has the clothing/art/furniture shop?


----------



## Manter (Oct 13, 2013)

editor said:


> Have to say I wasn't that impressed with Honest Burgers. The chips that everyone's been raving about really weren't that special at all. I mean, nice enough, but not _wowee amazing fab let me photo and blog it_ good..


Would agree with you. I quite like their food, but don't think it's earth shattering. I've said before, nice burger, but essentially just a burger.


----------



## Manter (Oct 13, 2013)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Is that Mark who has the clothing/art/furniture shop?


Nope, it's the one I live with


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 13, 2013)

Manter said:


> Nope, it's the one I live with



There's two northerners in Brixton? I'm calling a demo about this!


----------



## Manter (Oct 13, 2013)

Nanker Phelge said:


> There's two northerners in Brixton? I'm calling a demo about this!



We know six northerners locally so that's eight in total.

It's practically an invasion.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 13, 2013)

Manter said:


> It has a glossy, corporate feel to it, IMO, that seems to be different to the hipstery, home spun, small businesses doing what they are passionate about aura that many of the outlets have. It looks more like a wahaca/brindisa than a federation coffee.


ah, corporate or homespun, that crucial difference....



Nanker Phelge said:


> Who are the poor people? What were they doing in Brixton Village on Thursday that the arrival of frompagne marks the beginning of the end of?


we're past the beginning of the end, more the middle of the end of affordable rents that mean you squeeze out some kind of living from selling a few household good for a quid or two. Was that the question?


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 13, 2013)

editor said:


> Have to say I wasn't that impressed with Honest Burgers. The chips that everyone's been raving about really weren't that special at all. I mean, nice enough, but not _wowee amazing fab let me photo and blog it_ good..



Shoulda gone to Iceland. Their Mcain Crispy French Fries are to die for.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 13, 2013)

ska invita said:


> Was that the question?



No.


----------



## T & P (Oct 13, 2013)

editor said:


> Have to say I wasn't that impressed with Honest Burgers. The chips that everyone's been raving about really weren't that special at all. I mean, nice enough, but not _wowee amazing fab let me photo and blog it_ good..


Maybe people go there for the meat


----------



## hipipol (Oct 13, 2013)

ska invita said:


> Ah yes, a return to the Victorian social strata, huzzah!
> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk-most-unequal-country-in-the-west-1329614.html
> We've got the workfare we just need some flop houses


Thats exactly what I meant


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 13, 2013)

Manter said:


> We know six northerners locally so that's eight in total.
> 
> It's practically an invasion.



I knew something was changing. I just couldn't put my finger on it.

They'll opening black pudding and Ale shops next!


----------



## hipipol (Oct 13, 2013)

goldenecitrone said:


> The Reclaim the streets generation grew up and reclaimed the streets. Clue was in the name.


?


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 13, 2013)

T & P said:


> Maybe people go there for the meat



£7.50 for a plain beef burger and fries. £1.50 for a coke. So the cheapest drink and meal combo is £9.

People are queuing to stuff their faces at those those prices while a few yards away the poor sit hungry and deprived.

Up the revolution, comrades.


----------



## RubyToogood (Oct 13, 2013)

Just to toss a random fact into the conversation, there are at least 3 food banks operating in Brixton that I know of.


----------



## editor (Oct 13, 2013)

T & P said:


> Maybe people go there for the meat


I went there with a meat eater and her opinions were much the same as mine.


----------



## ddraig (Oct 13, 2013)

RubyToogood said:


> Just to toss a random fact into the conversation, there are at least 3 food banks operating in Brixton that I know of.


well those that patronise it should obviously have worked harder or been born into 'better' or more monied familes
and can't they move the foodbanks to st reatham? gives bricky a bad image that is not edgy, mamaa feel a twinge of guilt last week passing one


----------



## editor (Oct 13, 2013)

RubyToogood said:


> Just to toss a random fact into the conversation, there are at least 3 food banks operating in Brixton that I know of.


Living proof of the growing poor/wealth divide in Brixton.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 13, 2013)

editor said:


> Living proof of the growing poor/wealth divide in Brixton.



Food bank, Honest Burgers or Frompagne Supernova? A wealth of choice for every choice of wealth.


----------



## Kanda (Oct 13, 2013)

editor said:


> Have to say I wasn't that impressed with Honest Burgers. The chips that everyone's been raving about really weren't that special at all. I mean, nice enough, but not _wowee amazing fab let me photo and blog it_ good..



Agree. Massively over rated.


----------



## boohoo (Oct 13, 2013)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Food bank, Honest Burgers or Frompagne Supernova? A wealth of choice for every choice of wealth.



You forgot Mcdonalds in your food chain.


----------



## BigMoaner (Oct 13, 2013)

been on the turn for years. to fcus on one resturant is a bit reductive. swarming with white middle class property owners (whose kids are strangely absent from the local schools), and the place wll get more and more bland. i'd rather live a bit further out these days anyway


----------



## boohoo (Oct 13, 2013)

Kanda said:


> Agree. Massively over rated.



I like the meat - chips weren't all that. Meal at Honest burger better than the £6 I paid for 2 falafels and half a pitta yesterday in a Streatham pub!


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 13, 2013)

boohoo said:


> You forgot Mcdonalds in your food chain.



I excluded them for their flaccid and lifeless chips.


----------



## Kanda (Oct 13, 2013)

boohoo said:


> I like the meat - chips weren't all that. Meal hugely cheaper than the £6 I paid for 2 falafels and half a pitta yesterday in a Streatham pub!



Neither are anything to write home about tbh


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 13, 2013)

Has everyone on Urban been to Honest Burgers for their £7.50 mince meat in a bun?


----------



## Badgers (Oct 13, 2013)

Nanker Phelge said:
			
		

> Has everyone on Urban been to Honest Burgers for their £7.50 mince meat in a bun?



Nope.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 13, 2013)

Badgers said:


> Nope.



Nor me. Wanna date?


----------



## DietCokeGirl (Oct 13, 2013)

Nanker Phelge said:


> There's two northerners in Brixton? I'm calling a demo about this!


Mark would maintain he is a mid-lander and proud.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 13, 2013)

DietCokeGirl said:


> Mark would maintain he is a mid-lander and proud.



Actually you're right, but I'm a cockney and everyone north of Dagenham is a northerner to me.


----------



## Kanda (Oct 13, 2013)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Has everyone on Urban been to Honest Burgers for their £7.50 mince meat in a bun?



Soho branch, don't like the village much. Queue for food? Fuck that...


----------



## DietCokeGirl (Oct 13, 2013)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Has everyone on Urban been to Honest Burgers for their £7.50 mince meat in a bun?


No, had a veggie burger but it wasn't very nice.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 13, 2013)

Kanda said:


> Soho branch, don't like the village much. Queue for food? Fuck that...



It's like russia down there.....


----------



## BigMoaner (Oct 13, 2013)

someone should open a Dallas Chicken in the village


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 13, 2013)

DietCokeGirl said:


> No, had a veggie burger but it wasn't very nice.



How much was it for the salad bun?


----------



## Winot (Oct 13, 2013)

BigMoaner said:


> swarming with white middle class property owners (whose kids are strangely absent from the local schools)



Speak for yourself.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 13, 2013)

Nanker Phelge said:
			
		

> Nor me. Wanna date?



Burgers on a first date? It might work, it could work, it will work.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 13, 2013)

BigMoaner said:


> someone should open a Dallas Chicken in the village



Ten Gallon Bap


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 13, 2013)

Badgers said:


> Burgers on a first date? It might work, it could work, it will work.



We can see what the poor people look like from that side of the glass.

Something to eat and something to look at.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 13, 2013)

I am mixed about Honest Burgers. If I am gonna have a 'trendy' handmade burger I usually make it myself. Had a fair bit of practice in this discipline.


----------



## BigMoaner (Oct 13, 2013)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Ten Gallon Bap


teeth on it


----------



## DietCokeGirl (Oct 13, 2013)

Nanker Phelge said:


> How much was it for the salad bun?


Can't remember, this was aaaaaages ago.


----------



## marty21 (Oct 13, 2013)

Does Champagne really go with cheese though? Mrs21 doesn't think so.


----------



## Belushi (Oct 13, 2013)

marty21 said:


> Does Champagne really go with cheese though? Mrs21 doesn't think so.


 
I'd always go for a red with cheese. Not that I'd say no if champagne was the only thing offered..


----------



## Thora (Oct 13, 2013)

marty21 said:


> Does Champagne really go with cheese though? Mrs21 doesn't think so.


We have just had this very discussion.  I would def go to a Port and Stilton bar though.


----------



## Manter (Oct 13, 2013)

marty21 said:


> Does Champagne really go with cheese though? Mrs21 doesn't think so.


French couple talking outside c+f today didn't think so either


----------



## Manter (Oct 13, 2013)

Badgers said:


> I am mixed about Honest Burgers. If I am gonna have a 'trendy' handmade burger I usually make it myself. Had a fair bit of practice in this discipline.


Open a restaurant. Or even better, a pop up restaurant


----------



## marty21 (Oct 13, 2013)

Belushi said:


> I'd always go for a red with cheese. Not that I'd say no if champagne was the only thing offered..





Thora said:


> We have just had this very discussion.  I would def go to a Port and Stilton bar though.


would an establishment called Cheese and Wine be acceptable in Brixton?


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 13, 2013)

Manter said:


> French couple talking outside c+f today didn't think so either



What do they know about cheese and champagne. Coming over here fucking our jobs and nicking our women.

If they don't like it, let them eat cake!


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 13, 2013)

Manter said:


> Open a restaurant. Or even better, a pop up restaurant



A Pop Tart Restaurant


----------



## Belushi (Oct 13, 2013)

Nanker Phelge said:


> A Pop Tart Restaurant


 
A Pop Tart Cart


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 13, 2013)

Belushi said:


> A Pop Tart Cart



A la Pop Carte


----------



## T & P (Oct 13, 2013)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Has everyone on Urban been to Honest Burgers for their £7.50 mince meat in a bun?


The thing is, £7.50 for a burger is not expensive. Certainly in line with most other burger bars and restaurants.


----------



## Belushi (Oct 13, 2013)

Nanker Phelge said:


> A la Pop Carte


 
I'm starting a facebook campaign against you


----------



## marty21 (Oct 13, 2013)

Manter said:


> French couple talking outside c+f today didn't think so either


French people ? in Brixton ? outfuckingrageous


----------



## marty21 (Oct 13, 2013)

T & P said:


> The thing is, £7.50 for a burger is not expensive. Certainly in line with most other burger bars and restaurants.


had one in a pub in Hackney on Saturday night - £8.50, was very good tbh


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 13, 2013)

T & P said:


> The thing is, £7.50 for a burger is not expensive. Certainly in line with most other burger bars and restaurants.



Not expensive for you.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 13, 2013)

Manter said:
			
		

> Open a restaurant. Or even better, a pop up restaurant



Someone did offer to invest in this as a silent partner a short time ago


----------



## Hollis (Oct 13, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> and no english cheeses by the sounds of it.  it seems to be a french-themed thing.  but that's limiting. how many customers go to buy either cheese or wine and make their decisions based on nationality?


 
It would be really common in the old wine trade to specialise in one region and really source decent product from that - ditto cheese I expect..

Still leaves a nice little gap in the local market for and English sparkly and cheese shop to open up..

Was having a look at this place earlier. mmm.

http://www.townmillcheese.co.uk/our-cheeses

There's even a couple Welsh cheeses on offer to placate the editor.


----------



## T & P (Oct 13, 2013)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Not expensive for you.


Not saying it isn't for many people. But it is not expensive as the product it is, and not particularly more expensive than similar offerings in other pubs and restaurants whether in Brixton or elsewhere.


----------



## Agent Sparrow (Oct 13, 2013)

I would go to a Badgers restaurant, pop up or not 



T & P said:


> The thing is, £7.50 for a burger is not expensive. Certainly in line with most other burger bars and restaurants.


Thing is, I remember a few years ago it would have been really expensive, relatively speaking. Then all of a sudden, it didn't seem that way  

I think the Fujiyama's prices have only gone up a pound in over a decade, though they've added extra items that are more expensive. Not that they sell burgers, obviously.


----------



## marty21 (Oct 13, 2013)

Agent Sparrow said:


> I would go to a Badgers restaurant, pop up or not
> 
> .



If I come into big money -I will open The Badger and Badgers will run it


----------



## Badgers (Oct 13, 2013)

'The Keckering Badger'


----------



## Dan U (Oct 13, 2013)

Badger Badger Badger


----------



## Badgers (Oct 13, 2013)

Onket


----------



## Agent Sparrow (Oct 13, 2013)

Will it sell mushrooms?


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 13, 2013)

T & P said:


> Not saying it isn't for many people. But it is not expensive as the product it is, and not particularly more expensive than similar offerings in other pubs and restaurants whether in Brixton or elsewhere.



As long as everyone's charging too much for it then all is right and proper.


----------



## editor (Oct 13, 2013)

T & P said:


> The thing is, £7.50 for a burger is not expensive. Certainly in line with most other burger bars and restaurants.


But you're not even getting a comfortable restaurant experience. It's more like a cafe. With a queue. And if you get a seat, you then have to face increasing pressure from the aforementioned queue to fuck off sharpish once you've finished eating.


----------



## Maurice Picarda (Oct 13, 2013)

Are we up to 1600 posts now because people don't like a new shop that has opened up somewhere in Brixton? Round my way, the last Wimpy bar in captivity has just been turned into a Paddy Power. Every other new shop we get is either a payday loan outfit or one of those absurd Chinese vendors of spurious medicines. We'd get down on our knees and thank the Lord for an artisan burger place or a cheese shop.


----------



## editor (Oct 13, 2013)

Silas Loom said:


> Are we up to 1600 posts now because people don't like a new shop that has opened up somewhere in Brixton? Round my way, the last Wimpy bar in captivity has just been turned into a Paddy Power. Every other new shop we get is either a payday loan outfit or one of those absurd Chinese vendors of spurious medicines. We'd get down on our knees and thank the Lord for an artisan burger place or a cheese shop.


Reading the thread might be an idea at this point. You'll see it covers far wider issues, including your amazingly original observations.


----------



## Maurice Picarda (Oct 13, 2013)

I doubt it.


----------



## Thora (Oct 13, 2013)

Silas Loom said:


> I doubt it.


Basically no one but yuppies like champagne and french cheese.  The incomers who've lived in Brixton a bit longer demand English cheeses and red wine.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 13, 2013)

Silas Loom said:


> Are we up to 1600 posts now because people don't like a new shop that has opened up somewhere in Brixton? Round my way, the last Wimpy bar in captivity has just been turned into a Paddy Power. Every other new shop we get is either a payday loan outfit or one of those absurd Chinese vendors of spurious medicines. We'd get down on our knees and thank the Lord for an artisan burger place or a cheese shop.



Move to Brixton. Plenty to see and eat around here.


----------



## Maurice Picarda (Oct 13, 2013)

Thora said:


> Basically no one but yuppies like champagne and french cheese.  The incomers who've lived in Brixton a bit longer demand English cheeses and red wine.



Ah. Thanks.


----------



## zenie (Oct 13, 2013)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Has everyone on Urban been to Honest Burgers for their £7.50 mince meat in a bun?



No


----------



## Maurice Picarda (Oct 13, 2013)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Move to Brixton. Plenty to see and eat around here.



I might have to. It's not that new restaurants don't open up round here, it's just that they are exclusively run by Cypriots, and while they may start off with good and innovative intentions, determined to make a success of Southgate's first Ethiopian injeera bar or whatever it is, they always revert to putting grilled lamb and halloumi on the menu as soon as they hit a couple of quiet weeks. At the very least, a holiday in Brixton might be fun.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 13, 2013)

Silas Loom said:


> a holiday in Brixton might be fun.



cheap holidays in other people's misery....


----------



## Maurice Picarda (Oct 13, 2013)

Nanker Phelge said:


> cheap holidays in other people's misery....



But now I've got a reason.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 13, 2013)

Silas Loom said:
			
		

> Are we up to 1600 posts now because people don't like a new shop that has opened up somewhere in Brixton? Round my way, the last Wimpy bar in captivity has just been turned into a Paddy Power. Every other new shop we get is either a payday loan outfit or one of those absurd Chinese vendors of spurious medicines. We'd get down on our knees and thank the Lord for an artisan burger place or a cheese shop.



Where is this working class utopia of which you speak?


----------



## Maurice Picarda (Oct 13, 2013)

Badgers said:


> Where is this working class utopia of which you speak?



N14. Keep going north until the signs warn of dragons and Potters Bar.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 13, 2013)

zenie said:
			
		

> No



Double date then. You, Nanker and I will dine.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 13, 2013)

Silas Loom said:
			
		

> N14. Keep going north until the signs warn of dragons and Potters Bar.



Ah yes. The dark lands eh?


----------



## Agent Sparrow (Oct 13, 2013)

I've not been to Honest burgers either. If nothing else, the queues always make me think "fuck that!"


----------



## Badgers (Oct 13, 2013)

Agent Sparrow said:
			
		

> I've not been to Honest burgers either. If nothing else, the queues always make me think "fuck that!"



I use my burger influence to book the four of us a table.


----------



## spanglechick (Oct 13, 2013)

i'm not keen on the village as a place to eat generally.  i've been to franco manca to see what the fuss was about and to the chinese dumpling place where i thought i'd be taking thenm away but the lady sat me down and laid out a place setting.  

i'm sure the food is nice, but it's a bit cold and there's no decent loos.


----------



## han (Oct 13, 2013)

Agent Sparrow said:
			
		

> I've not been to Honest burgers either. If nothing else, the queues always make me think "fuck that!"



I've been once. It's ok, but over-rated. There's no way I'd queue for a meal... same goes for Franco Manca.


----------



## Ms T (Oct 13, 2013)

Agent Sparrow said:


> I've not been to Honest burgers either. If nothing else, the queues always make me think "fuck that!"



I've been a few times, but always mid-week lunchtime, so no queue.  I wouldn't go at the weekend or in the evening.


----------



## Yelkcub (Oct 13, 2013)

Silas Loom said:


> N14. Keep going north until the signs warn of dragons and Potters Bar.



Southgate Wimpy's gone?  My youth.


----------



## han (Oct 13, 2013)

The best burger I've had in Brixton was at the Electric Social a few weeks ago. And instead of Franco Manca, go to Bravi Ragazzi in Streatham - the best pizza I've had outside Italy, no question. 

Anyway.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 13, 2013)

I suppose the thing with the village is that if one place has a queue there are another 5 places within a minutes walk. 

I would queue for Franco Manca but only if I was with someone who wanted it or I though they had to try it.


----------



## Manter (Oct 13, 2013)

marty21 said:


> French people ? in Brixton ? outfuckingrageous


Am I allowed to say he was gorgeous? Or will that mark me out as a gentrifier, or national traitor or something?


----------



## Agent Sparrow (Oct 13, 2013)

Ms T said:


> I've been a few times, but always mid-week lunchtime, so no queue.  I wouldn't go at the weekend or in the evening.


I did try that once on a Thursday I had off work. It was still a half an hour wait.


----------



## Manter (Oct 13, 2013)

editor said:


> But you're not even getting a comfortable restaurant experience. It's more like a cafe. With a queue. And if you get a seat, you then have to face increasing pressure from the aforementioned queue to fuck off sharpish once you've finished eating.


This ^^ is v true.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 13, 2013)

Thinking about it I have never once eaten in the Village. The only thing I have ever purchased in there was a beer from the El Panzon guy at about 10am one morning while we were chatting.


----------



## Manter (Oct 13, 2013)

Ms T said:


> I've been a few times, but always mid-week lunchtime, so no queue.  I wouldn't go at the weekend or in the evening.


Agree. Saturday evening gives me the fear, it's heaving. And this time of the year must be icy cold too.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 13, 2013)

No doubt it is seasonal in terms of sales. They will still be trading to an okay level autumn/winter but sales have to drop in the cold. Am sure the businesses have factored this in.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 13, 2013)

Badgers said:


> Thinking about it I have never once eaten in the Village. The only thing I have ever purchased in there was a beer from the El Panzon guy at about 10am one morning while we were chatting.



I had an ice cream.


----------



## Manter (Oct 13, 2013)

Agent Sparrow said:


> I did try that once on a Thursday I had off work. It was still a half an hour wait.


You need to get there as it opens. 12 ish

They are nice burgers, but just burgers. You've not missed a life changing experience.... I went to see what the fuss was about, and I've since eaten there once more because I had a red meat craving*, but there are better/more interesting places to eat in Brixton. 

*and Mantito discovered that if he squawked it reverberated around the whole market. Which was lovely for everybody...


----------



## Badgers (Oct 13, 2013)

Nanker Phelge said:
			
		

> I had an ice cream.



Raspberry ripple in wafers?


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 13, 2013)

marty21 said:


> French people ? in Brixton ? outfuckingrageous



There are a lot of French in London. Two live at my place. They usually speak English so well that one does not realise.

The handyman who works in BV is French.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 13, 2013)

Badgers said:


> Raspberry ripple in wafers?



It was hazelnut...but had an italian name.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 13, 2013)

Nanker Phelge said:
			
		

> It was hazelnut...but had an italian name.



Pffft


----------



## Agent Sparrow (Oct 13, 2013)

Manter said:


> You need to get there as it opens. 12 ish
> 
> They are nice burgers, but just burgers. You've not missed a life changing experience.... I went to see what the fuss was about, and I've since eaten there once more because I had a red meat craving*, but there are better/more interesting places to eat in Brixton.


Yep, tbh that's what I suspected. I really am not unhappy if I never try an Honest burger! 



> *and Mantito discovered that if he squawked it reverberated around the whole market. Which was lovely for everybody...


Awww


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 13, 2013)

Badgers said:


> Pffft



No. It began with a T.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 13, 2013)

Nanker Phelge said:
			
		

> No. It began with a T.





Tangle Twister?


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 13, 2013)

Badgers said:


> Tangle Twister?



Are you flirting with me?


----------



## SarfLondoner (Oct 13, 2013)

BigMoaner said:


> someone should open a Dallas Chicken in the village


Locally sourced organic artisan Dallas chicken has a future i think.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 13, 2013)

Nanker Phelge said:
			
		

> Are you flirting with me?



You ask me on a date and then this?


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 13, 2013)

Badgers said:


> You ask me on a date and then this?



I'm fickle.

Puts me in good company on this thread.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 13, 2013)

Nanker Phelge said:
			
		

> I'm fickle.
> 
> Puts me in good company on this thread.



#brokenbrixton


----------



## Manter (Oct 13, 2013)

SarfLondoner said:


> Locally sourced organic artisan Dallas chicken has a future i think.


That's already there- Wishbone.


----------



## SarfLondoner (Oct 13, 2013)

Manter said:


> That's already there- Wishbone.


They need competition and sharpish


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 13, 2013)

Badgers said:


> #brokenbrixton



The clock has stopped but time still ticks.


----------



## ffsear (Oct 14, 2013)

http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/yupp...f-brixton-by-drinking-cider?utm_source=vicefb


----------



## editor (Oct 14, 2013)

ffsear said:


> http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/yupp...f-brixton-by-drinking-cider?utm_source=vicefb


Not a bad article that, although the readers comments are predictably right wing.


----------



## Winot (Oct 14, 2013)

Nice distinction between the different types of gentrification.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Oct 14, 2013)

Winot said:


> Nice distinction between the different types of gentrification.


 
Are they different types? Looks more like different degrees of the same thing to me.

The article isn't bad but it's Vice magazine - isn't that for actual genuine hipsters?


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 14, 2013)

ffsear said:


> http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/yupp...f-brixton-by-drinking-cider?utm_source=vicefb


 
Good article. Vice online news is worth checking out. I am impressed by the quality of news coverage in Vice.


----------



## editor (Oct 14, 2013)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> Are they different types? Looks more like different degrees of the same thing to me.
> 
> The article isn't bad but it's Vice magazine - isn't that for actual genuine hipsters?


That is the paradox.


----------



## ffsear (Oct 14, 2013)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> Are they different types? Looks more like different degrees of the same thing to me.
> 
> The article isn't bad but it's Vice magazine - isn't that for actual genuine hipsters?



Fear not,  the end of the hipster is upon us!   The xfactor is seeing to it!

http://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-r...tor-kingsland-road-halliburton-gentrification


----------



## cuppa tee (Oct 14, 2013)

ffsear said:


> Fear not,  the end of the hipster is upon us!   The xfactor is seeing to it!
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-r...tor-kingsland-road-halliburton-gentrification


Haha, yes my daughter who's 12 said the same thing, but she has been saying it since the makers of "movie star planet" included hipster dressing up materials for their subscribers.

E2a  those unfamiliar with movie star planet read this


----------



## Rushy (Oct 14, 2013)

Winot said:


> Nice distinction between the different types of gentrification.


Also the contrast between the polarising pre-protest hyperbole which a considerable number people were signing up to and the message of the far smaller number who actually turned up. There are valid messages but they get lost in the aggressive rhetoric which, although it grabs attention, makes protesters easily dismiss-able as extremists - which is the predominant view I have heard over the weekend, from people of a wide variety of political persuasions.

I agree with the comments regarding the doubtless unintended associations with Nazi slogans. I was disappointed to see this and it felt very ugly, but I also thought I may have been over-sensitive to it as my father and grandfather were both wartime Jews (non-European and in active service). I'm not one for arguing the "offence line" and felt that it was a derail to raise it at the time but, in retrospect, I'm pleased to see that others picked up on it.


----------



## Dexter Deadwood (Oct 14, 2013)

It's been a lively thread, often amusing and certainly a good read but it has left a bad taste in my mouth.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 14, 2013)

Rushy said:


> I agree with the comments regarding the doubtless unintended associations with Nazi slogans. I was disappointed to see this and it felt very ugly, but I also thought I may have been over-sensitive to it as my father and grandfather were both wartime Jews (non-European and in active service). I'm not one for arguing the "offence line" and felt that it was a derail to raise it at the time but, in retrospect, I'm pleased to see that others picked up on it.


"Schwaben Raus" is taken from the Berlin anti-gentrifiers, who I presume are also "dismissable as extremists" in your book.


----------



## editor (Oct 14, 2013)

Funny that no one picked up on this supposed 'Nazi' association in any of the 1.6k replies until several days after the event and only after someone from Vice mentioned it.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 14, 2013)

Dexter Deadwood said:


> has left a bad taste in my mouth.


whys that? tells us more...


----------



## Ms T (Oct 14, 2013)

editor said:


> Funny that no one picked up on this supposed 'Nazi' association in any of the 1.6k replies until several days after the event and only after someone from Vice mentioned it.



People were objecting to the use of the word "holocaust", I seem to recall.


----------



## leanderman (Oct 14, 2013)

han said:


> The best burger I've had in Brixton was at the Electric Social a few weeks ago. And instead of Franco Manca, go to Bravi Ragazzi in Streatham - the best pizza I've had outside Italy, no question.
> 
> Anyway.



Bravi Ragazzi is very, very good and not a factory line like Franco Manca. Friendly owners too.


----------



## T & P (Oct 14, 2013)

Dexter Deadwood said:


> It's been a lively thread, often amusing and certainly a good read but it has left a bad taste in my mouth.


May I suggest a glass of Waris-Larmandier Cuvée Empreinte 2004 and a Montbéliarde tartine to wash the bad taste off your mouth?


----------



## Rushy (Oct 14, 2013)

ska invita said:


> "Schwaben Raus" is taken from the Berlin anti-gentrifiers, who I presume are also "dismissable as extremists" in your book.



Yes - the article says that. I don't know really know a whole lot about the German protests to be honest. Presumably you are able to presume something else about "my book" from that.


----------



## Chilavert (Oct 14, 2013)

editor said:


> Not a bad article that, although the readers comments are predictably right wing.


Excuse my ignorance, but is Vice known as a right-wing magazine?


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Oct 14, 2013)

Chilavert said:


> Excuse my ignorance, but is Vice known as a right-wing magazine?


 
It's predominantly a trendy style mag AFAIK.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 14, 2013)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> It's predominantly a trendy style mag AFAIK.


So, yes.


----------



## Chilavert (Oct 14, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> So, yes.


Trendy people are right-wing then? You learn something new every day...


----------



## han (Oct 14, 2013)

There are some interesting comments on Brixton Blog about the demo...


----------



## han (Oct 14, 2013)

Mind you, taking a look at the 'about us' page of that site, it hardly represents the community as a whole, and most of them seem to have just moved here. I'm sure they're very nice people and all that... ;-)


----------



## editor (Oct 14, 2013)

han said:


> There are some interesting comments on Brixton Blog about the demo...


'Interesting' isn't a word I'd use to describe most of those comments. 'Depressing' seems more appropriate. Bit of a pointless read all round, really.


----------



## han (Oct 14, 2013)

Depressing to you, maybe. But the opinions of everyone who lives here (some who've lived here all their lives according to those comments) are valid aren't they?


----------



## han (Oct 14, 2013)

Personally, I do find it interesting quite how many opinions there are on this subject - not everyone thinks what's happening is damaging Brixton. And it seems to me that the people who are happiest about it are the ones who've lived here all their lives.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 14, 2013)

Rushy said:


> Yes - the article says that. I don't know really know a whole lot about the German protests to be honest. Presumably you are able to presume something else about "my book" from that.


I'm making presumptions based squarely on your posts - you found the tone of this, in my opinion mild and jokey protest "dismisable as extremist" and so did everyone you asked - in Berlin native residents are being priced out across the city as wave of party goers and artists have come in to take advantage of the once-cheap rents and are followed in by property developers and champagne bars. Local residents got sick of it and started up a campaign not aimed at the global economic forces that brought the new comers there, but as well as actively resisting evictions for increasing rents (leading to riots and burning of cars etc.) also in part acted in ways to make the new arrivals feel unwelcome, with people genuinely being threatened in a way far beyond this little episode. Judging by your posts native Berliners had a "valid message" but went about it in a way that is dismisable as extremist - far more extreme than sticking a piece of dairylea to your forehead.

more on berlin
http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/berlins-war-against-gentrification
http://www.theguardian.com/travel/2012/dec/04/berlin-fights-anti-hipster-tourism-abuse

is the issue clear cut? No, but I have every sympathy with those who are angered by it and act angrily against it. The issue here is one of extreme inequality. New arrivals have a responsibility to arrive humbly and not breeze in to an area of long term historical poverty, braying about bubbling up and so on, utterly blasé about the resulting effect on their neighbours - in this Brixton case long-term stall holders in the market who will soon find themselves priced out. I find it insulting, and if others do to and react angrily then there should be no surprise.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 14, 2013)

han said:


> Personally, I do find it interesting quite how many opinions there are on this subject - not everyone thinks what's happening is damaging Brixton. And it seems to me that the people who are happiest about it are the ones who've lived here all their lives.


i presume these are people who own their properties - no one who rents can be happy about the fact they are about to get priced out of the area they've lived their whole life in - or maybe havent made the connection between the arrival of champagne bars and their rent going up. Either that or they're very rich in which case of course its great news.


----------



## spanglechick (Oct 14, 2013)

han said:


> Personally, I do find it interesting quite how many opinions there are on this subject - not everyone thinks what's happening is damaging Brixton. And it seems to me that the people who are happiest about it are the ones who've lived here all their lives.


Hmm.  Which begs the question: if housing were secure and rents pegged to the CPI... Is this kind of gentrification a bad thing? Of course housing for the majority is highly insecure so it's probably not worth asking but...


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## han (Oct 14, 2013)

ska invita said:
			
		

> i presume these are people who own their properties - no one who rents can be happy about the fact they are about to get priced out of the area they've lived their whole life in - or maybe havent made the connection between the arrival of champagne bars and their rent going up. Either that or they're very rich in which case of course its great news.



No, they rent, live on estates and grew up here, two colleagues of mine who are delighted there are more places to eat out.


----------



## editor (Oct 14, 2013)

han said:


> Depressing to you, maybe. But the opinions of everyone who lives here (some who've lived here all their lives according to those comments) are valid aren't they?


You don't find Tory drivel about protesters needing to "get a job," all being "middle class from the Home Counties," and ill-informed shite about all council housing being "subsidised" utterly depressing?

How about the comment that "Brixton was built as an area for the rich – now there finally coming home"?


----------



## editor (Oct 14, 2013)

han said:


> Personally, I do find it interesting quite how many opinions there are on this subject - not everyone thinks what's happening is damaging Brixton. And it seems to me that the people who are happiest about it are the ones who've lived here all their lives.


Only if you believe the comments written by the wholly unrepresentative minority posting comments on an article that represents an equally unrepresentative minority of Brixton residents.

I've no doubt some long term Brixton residents are delighted to have a jolly upmarket champagne bar on their doorstep, but that doesn't mean that anyone who disagrees can be dismissed out of hand as non-residents, dole-scroungers, council house spongers or any of the other usual right wing shit that is applied to just about anyone protesting about anything from Stop The War to Gay Rights to the old Reclaim The Streets parties.

For what it's worth, I'm out in Brixton an awful lot and have talked to a lot of people about the posh _Fromagerie_ and believe me, there is no shortage of people who aren't so delighted to see it turning up in Brixton.


----------



## gabi (Oct 14, 2013)

editor said:


> Photos from the protest here:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Fucking hell. Was Saul down there with a 'niggers can't read' banner? oh wait. That was a fabrication of all the staff and customers of the grosvenor...


----------



## editor (Oct 14, 2013)

gabi said:


> Fucking hell. Was Saul down there with a 'niggers can't read' banner? oh wait. That was a fabrication of all the staff and customers of the grosvenor...


What the fucking hell are you on about now?


----------



## leanderman (Oct 14, 2013)

han said:


> Personally, I do find it interesting quite how many opinions there are on this subject - not everyone thinks what's happening is damaging Brixton. And it seems to me that the people who are happiest about it are the ones who've lived here all their lives.



Exactly - it is interesting to hear different perspectives, however disagreeable.

A problem with Twitter, for example, is the risk of following people who think just like you.


----------



## gabi (Oct 14, 2013)

editor said:


> For what it's worth, I'm out in Brixton an awful lot and have talked to a lot of people about the posh _Fromagerie_ and believe me, there is no shortage of people who aren't so delighted to see it turning up in Brixton.



And yet you are happy to promote a place selling both champagne and cheese just around the corner?


----------



## editor (Oct 14, 2013)

leanderman said:


> Exactly - it is interesting to hear different perspectives, however disagreeable.


Sure, but, as a rule, anonymous comments on a website are usually the least barometer of any kind of popular, representative opinion, given the self selecting nature of blogs and the fact that it's easy for people to post multiple comments under multiple IDs and give away no information about whatever they even live within 500 miles of the area under discussion.


----------



## gabi (Oct 14, 2013)

editor said:


> What the fucking hell are you on about now?



Er, a different thread editor. Your mate being barred for racist language from a local pub. The same guy behind this 'protest'.

Do I need to spell everything out for you? Seriously?


----------



## editor (Oct 14, 2013)

gabi said:


> And yet you are happy to promote a place selling both champagne and cheese just around the corner?


Once again, you've lost me here. What champagne bar am I "promoting"? Is it another one for well heeled, sorry _well hoofed_ donkeys?


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## leanderman (Oct 14, 2013)

ska invita said:


> i presume these are people who own their properties - no one who rents can be happy about the fact they are about to get priced out of the area they've lived their whole life in - or maybe havent made the connection between the arrival of champagne bars and their rent going up. Either that or they're very rich in which case of course its great news.



The problem is that the transformation of London has made private renting just about impossible for the majority.


----------



## han (Oct 14, 2013)

They were the most extreme ones you've picked there, and yes of course I find those opinions offensive. 

But you can't ignore the fact that not all long-term Brixton residents are unhappy about the new influx of businesses. Yes, of course stall holders must be worried, and I too am deeply worried for them. I'd hate it if they were priced out, and I would actively join a campaign to prevent that. I facebooked and twittered the Noor petition a while back, so it's pretty obvious where I'm coming from. 

I'm just aware that there is a breadth of opinion about all this, and I think it's important not to assume that it's only rich people who are positive about the changes.


----------



## BigMoaner (Oct 14, 2013)

han said:


> Personally, I do find it interesting quite how many opinions there are on this subject - not everyone thinks what's happening is damaging Brixton. And it seems to me that the people who are happiest about it are the ones who've lived here all their lives.



the people i have asked too who are long-term, working class residents say that they are a lot happier with the place now it is changing.


----------



## editor (Oct 14, 2013)

gabi said:


> Er, a different thread editor. Your mate being barred for racist language from a local pub. The same guy behind this 'protest'.
> 
> Do I need to spell everything out for you? Seriously?


Um, since when was he "my mate"? 

You've already been slapped down for posting up made-up nonsense about pub banning, so please don't start that all over again because you're only going to end up looking even sillier.


----------



## gabi (Oct 14, 2013)

editor said:


> Once again, you've lost me here. What champagne bar am I "promoting"? Is it another one for well heeled, sorry _well hoofed_ donkeys?



Um. The one you designed the website for advertising champagne at a bargain  6.50.

You are smarter than this.


----------



## editor (Oct 14, 2013)

han said:


> But you can't ignore the fact that not all long-term Brixton residents are unhappy about the new influx of businesses.


Are you not reading my posts? Look: 


editor said:


> *I've no doubt some long term Brixton residents are delighted to have a jolly upmarket champagne bar on their doorstep*, but that doesn't mean that anyone who disagrees can be dismissed out of hand as non-residents, dole-scroungers, council house spongers or any of the other usual right wing shit that is applied to just about anyone protesting about anything from Stop The War to Gay Rights to the old Reclaim The Streets parties.


----------



## gabi (Oct 14, 2013)

editor said:


> Um, since when was he "my mate"?
> 
> You've already been slapped down for posting up made-up nonsense about pub banning, so please don't start that all over again because you're only going to end up looking even sillier.



He wasn't banned from the grosvenor? Apols if not. A staff member said he was.


----------



## editor (Oct 14, 2013)

gabi said:


> Um. The one you designed the website for advertising champagne at a bargain  6.50.
> 
> You are smarter than this.


Sorry, are you still going on about a small site I designed for a friend in 2003? A decade ago? When it was a cheap cafe.
Really? 

Oh, and since when do they sell cheese?


----------



## han (Oct 14, 2013)

leanderman said:
			
		

> Exactly - it is interesting to hear different perspectives, however disagreeable.
> 
> A problem with Twitter, for example, is the risk of following people who think just like you.



'You' meaning me, or 'you' meaning 'one'? 
I'm a lesbian, real ale swilling, hairy legged member of the Green party, fwiw :-D


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## editor (Oct 14, 2013)

gabi said:


> He wasn't banned from the grosvenor? Apols if not. A staff member said he was.


You said he was banned from the Albert. He's not. You made that up. A lie, if you will.


----------



## han (Oct 14, 2013)

editor said:
			
		

> Only if you believe the comments written by the wholly unrepresentative minority posting comments on an article that represents an equally unrepresentative minority of Brixton residents.



How do you know they're an unrepresentative minority?


----------



## han (Oct 14, 2013)

leanderman said:
			
		

> Exactly - it is interesting to hear different perspectives, however disagreeable.
> 
> A problem with Twitter, for example, is the risk of following people who think just like you.



Oh god sorry, I see what you mean. God I'm thick! :-D


----------



## editor (Oct 14, 2013)

han said:


> How do you know they're an unrepresentative minority?


Oh come on han, you're smarter than this. urban75 is infinitely busier than the Brixton Blog and even I know that what's written here doesn't represent anything other than the thoughts of the individuals posting (even if, unusually, quite a few of the people posting are known to each other in the real world). 

Why do you think the mainly anonymous comments on the Blog are any different?


----------



## gabi (Oct 14, 2013)

editor said:


> You said he was banned from the Albert. He's not. You made that up. A lie, if you will.



I apologized. I assumed asking 'can anybody speak fucking English around here' was a banning offence. It's the sort of thing that used to be.


----------



## han (Oct 14, 2013)

Leanderman - You're right. That's why I follow the Israeli Defence Forces as well as the Palestine Solidarity Campaign. ;-)


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## gabi (Oct 14, 2013)

editor said:


> Sorry, are you still going on about a small site I designed for a friend in 2003? A decade ago? When it was a cheap cafe.
> Really?
> 
> Oh, and since when do they sell cheese?



Fucking HELL! 

Sort your shit out man, or redesign their fucking menu.


----------



## editor (Oct 14, 2013)

gabi said:


> Fucking HELL!
> 
> Sort your shit out man, or redesign their fucking menu.


Sorry, still can't work out what you're on about. I've never designed a menu for the Lounge. However, I did a small website for them *ten years ago* when they were a small cafe, and as far as I know, they still don't sell a range of expensive cheeses, neither do they describe themselves as a champagne bar.


----------



## editor (Oct 14, 2013)

gabi said:


> I apologized. I assumed asking 'can anybody speak fucking English around here' was a banning offence. It's the sort of thing that used to be.


You really have lost the plot here. What you think may or may not be a banning offence in a pub has precisely zero relevance in the real world, yet that didn't stop  you making up claims about it. Weird.


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## Dan U (Oct 14, 2013)

gabi is it beer o'clock in HK


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## leanderman (Oct 14, 2013)

editor said:


> Oh come on han, you're smarter than this. urban75 is infinitely busier than the Brixton Blog and even I know that what's written here doesn't represent anything other than the thoughts of the individuals posting (even if, unusually, quite a few of the people posting are known to each other in the real world).
> 
> Why do you think the mainly anonymous comments on the Blog are any different?



It may be that Brixton has more pro- than anti-gentrifiers. Who knows?


----------



## han (Oct 14, 2013)

editor said:
			
		

> Oh come on han, you're smarter than this. urban75 is infinitely busier than the Brixton Blog and even I know that what's written here doesn't represent anything other than the thoughts of the individuals posting (even if, unusually, quite a few of the people posting are known to each other in the real world).



But why don't they represent the views of the community? Do you think people posting on urban75 are exclusively white middle class? I doubt it, and I think the same of Brixton Blog. 

Just because Brixton Blog is created by white middle class newcomers, it doesn't mean that the people commenting on the article necessarily are. 

Just an aside - the voices of dissent are always louder than the silent majority. Just look at when Boris Johnson got in. Everyone I know, including me, was rabidly against him becoming mayor. He still did though, obviously I was in a minority :-(


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## editor (Oct 14, 2013)

leanderman said:


> It may be that Brixton has more pro- than anti-gentrifiers. Who knows?


It terms of the _online community_ that wouldn't surprise me at all. When I go to a resident's meeting on my estate, I'm often the only person who is active online.


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## editor (Oct 14, 2013)

han said:


> But why don't they represent the views of the community?


Because people who can be bothered to read and post in niche local blogs are already - by definition - a self-selecting few.

I'm sure they represent the view of _some_ people in the community, but they don't represent "the community" as a whole any more than my personal views do here.

They're just individuals - mainly anonymous ones - posting their personal opinions from God knows where.

Personally, I hope the bloke banging on about dole scroungers reflects a tiny minority of local opinion, but I fear I'm wrong.


----------



## editor (Oct 14, 2013)

han said:


> Just an aside - the voices of dissent are always louder than the silent majority.


That's not always true online though.


----------



## leanderman (Oct 14, 2013)

han said:


> Just because Brixton Blog is created by white middle class newcomers, it doesn't mean that the people commenting on the article necessarily are.
> 
> :-(



That's not quite right. One of the two founders went to primary school in Brixton!


----------



## han (Oct 14, 2013)

editor said:
			
		

> Personally, I hope the bloke banging on about dole scroungers reflects a tiny minority of local opinion, but I fear I'm wrong.



I fear you are too :-(


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## han (Oct 14, 2013)

leanderman said:
			
		

> That's not quite right. One of the two founders went to primary school in Brixton!



Oops. Should've said 'mainly newcomers!'


----------



## han (Oct 14, 2013)

leanderman said:
			
		

> It may be that Brixton has more pro- than anti-gentrifiers. Who knows?



Indeed. Maybe Lambeth Council could do a survey.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 14, 2013)

han said:


> No, they rent, live on estates and grew up here, two colleagues of mine who are delighted there are more places to eat out.


well if it were just a case of more places to eat within a vacuum who could object - they're in luck there'll be a lot more places to eat coming very soon - whether they'll still be able to afford to live in Brixton to enjoy them is another thing

The question isnt: do you mind if a nice little shop opens up selling fizzy wine and cheese, its do you mind if all rents in Brixton, residential and business, go up at insane rates, even more than they have already.



han said:


> But you can't ignore the fact that not all long-term Brixton residents are unhappy about the new influx of businesses. Yes, of course stall holders must be worried, and I too am deeply worried for them. I'd hate it if they were priced out, and I would actively join a campaign to prevent that. I facebooked and twittered the Noor petition a while back, so it's pretty obvious where I'm coming from.


Which is the big issue - im no fan of FWF and this protest was more stunt than anything - but this is what has to happen next, and quickly, because its already the 11th hour. Champagne bar will make a lot more money than the bloke next door selling 4 packs of sponges for £1, and rents will go up accordingly in no time. Someone posted earlier that Champagne bar  had to pay £50k just to get this spot. 

Also I cant find the bit on Brixton Blog, any chance of a link please?



Ms T said:


> People were objecting to the use of the word "holocaust", I seem to recall.


yes true, and i objected to that too, and i havnt held back on what i think of FWF on the FWF thread. The way I see it FWF and what they say and do shouldnt get in the way of the important issue here - in fact they should be ignored (and/or challenged, depending what comes out of their mouths)


----------



## Rushy (Oct 14, 2013)

ska invita said:


> I'm making presumptions based squarely on your posts - you found the tone of this, in my opinion mild and jokey protest "dismisable as extremist" and so did everyone you asked - in Berlin native residents are being priced out across the city as wave of party goers and artists have come in to take advantage of the once-cheap rents and are followed in by property developers and champagne bars. Local residents got sick of it and started up a campaign not aimed at the global economic forces that brought the new comers there, but as well as actively resisting evictions for increasing rents (leading to riots and burning of cars etc.) also in part acted in ways to make the new arrivals feel unwelcome, with people genuinely being threatened in a way far beyond this little episode. Judging by your posts native Berliners had a "valid message" but went about it in a way that is dismisable as extremist - far more extreme than sticking a piece of dairylea to your forehead.
> 
> more on berlin
> http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/berlins-war-against-gentrification
> ...



Sure - the chap with a slice of cheese slapped on his forehead was mild and jokey. Made me smile. That was in distinct contrast to the Yuppies Out event page which I did not find mild and jokey - I was clearly not alone in that. I've made little comment on the actual event other than that it was a fairly poorly attended damp squib which bore little resemblance to the preceding rhetoric.  It is the preceding rhetoric which I have consistently objected to. You seem to be conflating the two.

After reading the Vice article I voiced a personal disquiet about terminology used during the otherwise forgettable protest because of associations it brought to mind for me personally - without knowing anything much of the Schwabian situation. My comment wasn't completely out of the blue and I'm not sure why Ed felt so compelled to suggest this. I remarked in #1145 that someone heading for the protest had written "Yuppies Raus" on the back of their jacket. That by itself seemed a little sinister to me and I was surprised that no one else seemed to mention it.

It is all very well for some to argue that the protesters were mirroring the German anti gentrification campaign. But even if they did not notice the parallels themselves, it cannot have escaped them that the German campaign has been accused of blatantly borrowing from the Nazis. This from der Spiegel:



> ..in recent months, the so-called "Swabian hate" has grown increasingly aggressive, as graffiti has adopted the tone -- and, in some cases, the exact wording -- that was used by the Nazis in their persecution of the Jews and other targeted groups in the run-up to the Holocaust. One recent piece of graffiti reads, "Swabians, piss off," with the double "S" resembling the Nazi's SS insignia. In early May, "Don't buy from the Swabians" ("Kauf nicht bei Schwaben") was spray-painted on the side of a Prenzlauer Berg building, an incitement to boycott that directly mirrors the slogan affixed to Jewish businesses in 1933 after Hitler came to power. Both phrases were followed with "TSH," supposedly an acronym for "Total Swabian Hate."


I have not said that people who express themselves extremely do not necessarily have a valid message or concern behind the rhetoric. I have said that their message gets lost in the hyperbole and they are easily dismissed as or lumped in with true extremists. Sure - people are angry but who the fuck expects to be taken as anything other than polarisingly extreme when adopting, or even associating with people who are adopting, Nazi hate slogans? 

I did not and do not want to derail this into a Nazi hate issue. I don't see declaring "Die Yuppie Scum" as much less sinister except that the accusers are too confused to clarify who they want to die. Presumably because if the label were clarified, many of those shouting loudest would no doubt have to turn the gun on themselves.


----------



## Winot (Oct 14, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> Hmm.  Which begs the question: if housing were secure and rents pegged to the CPI... Is this kind of gentrification a bad thing? Of course housing for the majority is highly insecure so it's probably not worth asking but...


 
Many posters have said that they or their friends/family are being priced out and I can see that the opening of a champagne bar feels like salt being rubbed in the wound.  I can't speak for them but I suspect that if people weren't being priced out then there wouldn't be the same level of anger.

It seems to me that it's all about affordable secure housing.  Without that, and within a 'free market' (NB I've put that in quotes because I know it's not really free), the poor are bound to be displaced from desirable areas, even if no champagne bars open.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 14, 2013)

Well Rushy i get the feeling that we agree that FWF should not be the spokespeople for anything, especially as important as peoples livelihoods and housing situations


----------



## Winot (Oct 14, 2013)

ska invita said:


> The question isnt: do you mind if a nice little shop opens up selling fizzy wine and cheese, its do you mind if all rents in Brixton, residential and business, go up at insane rates, even more than they have already.


 
Well that's what I think is the question too but many on this thread disagree.


----------



## BigMoaner (Oct 14, 2013)

my mum and her family are all from brixton, they have all moved out to west norwood and elsewhere. whilst she doesn't really like being surrou


Winot said:


> Many posters have said that they or their friends/family are being priced out and I can see that the opening of a champagne bar feels like salt being rubbed in the wound.  I can't speak for them but I suspect that if people weren't being priced out then there wouldn't be the same level of anger.
> 
> It seems to me that it's all about affordable secure housing.  Without that, and within a 'free market' (NB I've put that in quotes because I know it's not really free), the poor are bound to be displaced from desirable areas, even if no champagne bars open.



i'm priced out of chelsea, such is life, such is the market. i would like to live in crystal palace, but i can't afford to. am i in a position to complain about that?


----------



## BigMoaner (Oct 14, 2013)

i'd also like a family sized VW, but i can't afford one. richer people can. there maybe something inherently unfair about that, but also it's pretty unavoidable in a market economy, don't you think? alternative?


----------



## han (Oct 14, 2013)

Winot said:
			
		

> the poor are bound to be displaced from desirable areas, even if no champagne bars open.



Lots of people in long term local authority housing have a low rent that changes little over the years. And I'm guessing that a lot of these people aren't bothered by the changes. At least, those I've spoken to aren't. 

The really worrying sector is those renting from private landlords who can do what they like.


----------



## han (Oct 14, 2013)

Winot said:
			
		

> Well that's what I think is the question too but many on this thread disagree.



Of course I mind about all rents going up! God. The question is, what do we do? One thing we can do, is petition the market owners, in the case of Nour, which was successful.


----------



## Winot (Oct 14, 2013)

han said:


> Lots of people in long term local authority housing have a low rent that changes little over the years. And I'm guessing that a lot of these people aren't bothered by the changes. At least, those I've spoken to aren't.
> 
> The really worrying sector is those renting from private landlords who can do what they like.



That would be the difference between having affordable secure housing and not then!


----------



## Winot (Oct 14, 2013)

BigMoaner said:


> i'd also like a family sized VW, but i can't afford one. richer people can. there maybe something inherently unfair about that, but also it's pretty unavoidable in a market economy, don't you think? alternative?



Well yes, but whether or not you can buy a particular car doesn't have any effect on others. The effect of an area becoming more homogeneous does.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 14, 2013)

BigMoaner said:


> i'm priced out of chelsea, such is life, such is the market. i would like to live in crystal palace, but i can't afford to. am i in a position to complain about that?


of course you are in a position to complain. fuck the market. do you not want a more equal society, or do you enjoy the UK's runaway inequality? Do you want affordable housing for all or just  for the few?


----------



## ska invita (Oct 14, 2013)

> The question isnt: do you mind if a nice little shop opens up selling fizzy wine and cheese, its do you mind if all rents in Brixton, residential and business, go up at insane rates, even more than they have already.





Winot said:


> Well that's what I think is the question too but many on this thread disagree.


the difference is i think theyre completely inter-related


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## Crispy (Oct 14, 2013)

BigMoaner said:


> I would like to live in crystal palace, but i can't afford to. am i in a position to complain about that?



The fact you think you're not shows just how deeply you've swallowed the story that housing prices should be left to the market.


----------



## han (Oct 14, 2013)

Winot said:
			
		

> That would be the difference between having affordable secure housing and not then!



Well, quite. Is anyone on this thread saying that rents going up astronomically is a good thing? I don't think so. I don't think anyone in Brixton would say it's good, do you? Most people will agree it's a bad thing, and deeply worrying. 

But if you ask them about all the new restaurants, and the state of Granville Arcade, they may answer differently. 

I'm not sure everyone makes that connection between the two , especially if it doesn't affect them directly (eg they live in affordable council housing).


----------



## han (Oct 14, 2013)

ska invita said:
			
		

> the difference is i think theyre completely related



Of course they are. Aren't we all in agreement on that? 

The discussion earlier seemed to be more, whether a Champagne and Cheese bar (or whatever it is) is more emblematic of that relationship than, say, Honest Burgers.


----------



## Rushy (Oct 14, 2013)

ska invita said:


> Well Rushy i get the feeling that we agree that FWF should not be the spokespeople for anything, especially as important as peoples livelihoods and housing situations


Unfortunately it was left to them to front it and some chose to align themselves very strongly and uncritically with their message and the way they communicated it.


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## Winot (Oct 14, 2013)

ska invita said:


> the difference is i think theyre completely related


 
The difference is that I think C+F bar is more effect than cause whereas you (correct me if I'm wrong) think it's more cause than effect.


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## BigMoaner (Oct 14, 2013)

Crispy said:


> The fact you think you're not shows just how deeply you've swallowed the story that housing prices should be left to the market.


so i am in a position to complain that i can't live where i want to live. everyone should be able to live exactly where they want to live? how are you going organise and administrate that?


----------



## ska invita (Oct 14, 2013)

BigMoaner said:


> i'm priced out of chelsea, such is life, such is the market.?


since you mentioned chelsea it worth mentioning that chelsea isnt immune to this - the Kings Road not long ago was home to lots of small indie shops.

this standard article also blames the slump, but in fact it was huge rent increases that really did them in 
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/lond...-as-shops-fall-prey-to-the-slump-7443283.html


"Just before Christmas, I counted 19 empty shops and empty shops are contagious. Plus they mean people just won't come here any more. Landlords don't differentiate between big chains, and when one moves in they raise the market rents and expect us to pay.
"It has killed the character of the King's Road. It used to be artists, independent boutiques and small shops but it's fast turning into any UK high street. It's very sad.
"The next rent review worries me deeply. Landlords just don't listen to us - and the big ones can afford to have empty shops. We have been in the King's Road for 20 years and this is the worst it has ever been."


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## ska invita (Oct 14, 2013)

Winot said:


> The difference is that I think C+F bar is more effect than cause whereas you (correct me if I'm wrong) think it's more cause than effect.


its a vicious circle and i dont differentiate - in the micoreconomy of brixton market it will CAUSE rents to go up

of course the big market forces at play have nothing to do with this one shop


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## Crispy (Oct 14, 2013)

BigMoaner said:


> so i am in a position to complain that i can't live where i want to live. everyone should be able to live exactly where they want to live? how are you going organise and administrate that?


No, not everybody can live where they want, but the ability to satisfy that desire should not be left up to the market alone. If you clean the toilets in chelsea (say), but have to commute for two hours (say)to get to work in order to afford the rent, then you are not living in a location that is a)Convenient or pleasant for you, b)Conducive to being a useful part of society when not working, due to having 4 hours of your day (plus commuting costs) removed. In the socialist utopia to follow after my election as supreme ruler of the world, housing will be fairly allocated by need. Before that happens, I'd like to see at least small steps taken in that direction, to prevent the allocation of housing purely on wealth.


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## ska invita (Oct 14, 2013)

BigMoaner said:


> so i am in a position to complain that i can't live where i want to live. everyone should be able to live exactly where they want to live? how are you going organise and administrate that?


you are in a position to complain that the UK has spiralling levels of inequality. You can complain that the government is inflating a housing bubble as a way of getting out of its debt crisis. YOu can complain that the government doesnt dare deal with the problems of banking.

Solution - How about rent caps? How about mansion taxes? How about heavy taxation on second properties? How about taking shops out of private landlords hands and making them state assets to be rented at not-for-profit levels? How about scrapping that housing benefit cap thing theyre introducing? How about building more council housing? How about not selling off existing housing stock? How about decentralising work away from London into other regions? How about investing in the North? How about moving parliament to Coventry? How about fixing the banking system? Etc. Im sure there are other ideas.


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## Winot (Oct 14, 2013)

ska invita said:


> you are in a position to complain that the UK has spiralling levels of inequality. You can complain that the government is inflating a housing bubble as a way of getting out of its debt crisis. YOu can complain that the government doesnt dare deal with the problems of banking.
> 
> Solution - How about rent caps? How about mansion taxes? How about heavy taxation on second properties? How about taking shops out of private landlords hands and making them state assets to be rented at not-for-profit levels? How about scrapping that housing benefit cap thing theyre introducing? How about building more council housing? How about not selling off existing housing stock? How about decentralising work away from London into other regions? How about investing in the North? How about moving parliament to Coventry? How about fixing the banking system? Etc. Im sure there are other ideas.


 
Believe it or not, I'd vote for many of these.  Whilst simultaneously drinking champagne.


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## editor (Oct 14, 2013)

Just been talking to a couple of local traders today, in the market and in the arches.

I'm not going to speak for them, but they certainly seemed to be growing increasingly concerned about their next round of rent renewals as a result of upmarket West End businesses like C&F who have the financial resources to slap down large sums of cash for their expansion plans.

It will eventually affect residents too, and put even more pressure on social/council housing. I wouldn't be surprised if Lambeth mull over having another bash at flattening the Barrier Block and perhaps 'developing' the Moorlands Estate behind some time in the future.


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## BigMoaner (Oct 14, 2013)

ska invita said:


> you are in a position to complain that the UK has spiralling levels of inequality. You can complain that the government is inflating a housing bubble as a way of getting out of its debt crisis. YOu can complain that the government doesnt dare deal with the problems of banking.
> 
> Solution - How about rent caps? How about mansion taxes? How about heavy taxation on second properties? How about taking shops out of private landlords hands and making them state assets to be rented at not-for-profit levels? How about scrapping that housing benefit cap thing theyre introducing? How about building more council housing? How about not selling off existing housing stock? How about decentralising work away from London into other regions? How about investing in the North? How about moving parliament to Coventry? How about fixing the banking system? Etc. Im sure there are other ideas.


i don't actually disagree with you


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## ska invita (Oct 14, 2013)

editor said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if Lambeth mull over having another bash at flattening the Barrier Block and perhaps 'developing' the Moorlands Estate behind some time in the future.


dont worry, there'll be plenty of flats set aside at affordable rents for key workers etc [/lies lies lies]


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## editor (Oct 14, 2013)

Lambeth council still regularly sends out leaflets offering big cash bribes for council tenants to buy their homes, so we've got a very, very long way to go.


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## ska invita (Oct 14, 2013)

BigMoaner said:


> i don't actually disagree with you


good! i know it feels like the market has to dictate everything in our lives, and with no political alternative in the mainstream we all feel powerless against these forces, but it doesnt mean you cant be pissed off and angry about it - they'll never take away our anger!!! (though sometimes it feels like theyre even managing to do that)


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## ska invita (Oct 14, 2013)

Winot said:


> Believe it or not, I'd vote for many of these.  Whilst simultaneously drinking champagne.


champagne for all or for none!!


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## leanderman (Oct 14, 2013)

We do need affordable housing in London.

But I am still uncertain as to where it would go.



editor said:


> Lambeth council still regularly sends out leaflets offering big cash bribes for council tenants to buy their homes, so we've got a very, very long way to go.



L&Q owns a hell of a lot of Brixton, and does not generally allow right to buy, according to its tenants in my street.


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## editor (Oct 14, 2013)

leanderman said:


> L&Q owns a hell of a lot of Brixton, and does not generally allow right to buy, according to its tenants in my street.


There's still a lot of council housing in Brixton too.


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## leanderman (Oct 14, 2013)

editor said:


> There's still a lot of council housing in Brixton too.



Hard to buy a flat at current prices, even with Osborne's bigger discounts.


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## editor (Oct 14, 2013)

leanderman said:


> Hard to buy a flat at current prices, even with Osborne's bigger discounts.


Council housing should be protected like the community asset it is, not flogged off on the cheap.


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## leanderman (Oct 14, 2013)

editor said:


> Council housing should be protected like the community asset it is, not flogged off on the cheap.



Wrong! Council housing was meant to be flogged off cheap to the family of the Tory minister who pioneered right to buy:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/right-to-buy-housing-shame-third-ex-council-1743338


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## han (Oct 14, 2013)

editor said:
			
		

> Council housing should be protected like the community asset it is, not flogged off on the cheap.



And if you get rid of it, you never get it back, and we'll end up living in completely segregated ghettos, with the poor bussing into rich areas to work. Like America.


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## BigMoaner (Oct 14, 2013)

han said:


> And if you get rid of it, you never get it back, and we'll end up living in completely segregated ghettos, with the poor bussing into rich areas to work. Like America.


many schools in south london like that now anyway. posh school/poor shool/posh school, etc


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## ska invita (Oct 14, 2013)

han, you said you dont want the original traders to go, and would campaign to keep them there. keep rents down and so on.
What do you think Champagne Bar people want? Do you think they want to trade next door to these people? I can say with all confidence they dont, and look forward to other high end retailers moving in, which will further boost their profits and realisation of a 5-store business empire. I bet they would be happy for rents to go up just to get these people bringing down the tone of the place out. And they know thats what will happen, thats why they've made the calculation to get in there early. Theyre the not very thin edge of a sparkling-stinking-cheese wedge


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## leanderman (Oct 14, 2013)

Another problem with finding potential sites for homes is that alternative uses are possible; business sites, pubs etc.

The new town hall scheme calls for housing to replace Olive Morris House.

I'd quite like to see it used for education (chronic lack of secondary and primary places locally)


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## Rushy (Oct 14, 2013)

ska invita said:


> han, you said you dont want the original traders to go, and would campaign to keep them there. keep rents down and so on.
> What do you think Champagne Bar people want? Do you think they want to trade next door to these people? *I can say with all confidence they dont,* and look forward to other high end retailers moving in, which will further boost their profits and realisation of a 5-store business empire. I bet they would be happy for rents to go up just to get these people bringing down the tone of the place out. And they know thats what will happen, thats why they've made the calculation to get in there early. Theyre the not very thin edge of a sparkling-stinking-cheese wedge



That's quite an assumption. What is that confidence based on?


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## nagapie (Oct 14, 2013)

leanderman said:


> I'd quite like to see it used for education (chronic lack of secondary and primary places locally)



Chronic lack of primary places, no current lack of secondary places.


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## han (Oct 14, 2013)

ska invita said:


> han, you said you dont want the original traders to go, and would campaign to keep them there. keep rents down and so on.
> What do you think Champagne Bar people want? Do you think they want to trade next door to these people? I can say with all confidence they dont, and look forward to other high end retailers moving in, which will further boost their profits and realisation of a 5-store business empire. I bet they would be happy for rents to go up just to get these people bringing down the tone of the place out. And they know thats what will happen, thats why they've made the calculation to get in there early. Theyre the not very thin edge of a sparkling-stinking-cheese wedge



I've got no idea what they want, but I fear you may be right. Perhaps there's a small chance they may want to be part of a diverse scene though, that encompasses shops of every type.

By the way, just because I made the point that some people (including some of those living in social  housing) ARE enthusiastic about the changes to Granville Arcade and Market Row, it doesn't mean that I am. I simply think it's something that's worth discussing and understanding.


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## ska invita (Oct 14, 2013)

Rushy said:


> That's quite an assumption. What is that confidence based on?


based on experience of having seen this before

high end businesses thrive when there are other high end businesses surrounding them, creating a "destination retail location" or some such, and conversely are brought down if they are in a wilderness of low end retail outlets. Once Brixton Village is teeming with rich shoppers who just cant resist getting their bubble on, and go on then, a big slab o cheese, their business model will have succeeded.

Once Brixton Village becomes Covent Garden (see previous posts) they'll be laughing. And thats what will happen. Show me one other market where traders dealing in low end products happily exist side by side with high end products? nowhere except places in a transition of gentrification, and in the end either the gentrifiers win and the low end traders will be gone or there's a collapse in the market and gentrification stops, high end retailers collapse as no one can afford their high end products and the market/cash and carry traders will return.


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## cesare (Oct 14, 2013)

More likely to end up like Spitalfields than Covent Garden, but with fewer suits at lunchtime.


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## Gramsci (Oct 14, 2013)

leanderman said:


> L&Q owns a hell of a lot of Brixton, and does not generally allow right to buy, according to its tenants in my street.


 
There is no RTB in Housing Association property. Its only for Council Housing. Unless a Council estate has transferred to an HA. Then existing tenants retain the right.


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## han (Oct 14, 2013)

cesare said:
			
		

> More likely to end up like Spitalfields than Covent Garden, but with fewer suits at lunchtime.



If that happens, it will be devastating :-(


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## ska invita (Oct 14, 2013)

arent they still trying to knock down Spitalfields? The trampling feet of gentrification take no prisoners


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## han (Oct 14, 2013)

I feel the community in Brixton is strong enough to prevent a total wipeout, with a coherent 'save the market' campaign. LOTS of towns outside London have saved their generations-old shops from the high street corporate brands, by campaigning. But it takes the whole community to engage in this.


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## cesare (Oct 14, 2013)

ska invita said:


> arent they still trying to knock down Spitalfields? The trampling feet of gentrification take no prisoners


Are they? They've invested a hell of a lot of ££££££s for the structural and pedestrian changes so far. Can you remember where you saw that?


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## innit (Oct 14, 2013)

ska invita said:


> arent they still trying to knock down Spitalfields? The trampling feet of gentrification take no prisoners


Do you mean smithfield?


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## cesare (Oct 14, 2013)

han said:


> I feel the community in Brixton is strong enough to prevent this, with a coherent 'save the market' campaign. LOTS of towns outside London have saved their generations-old shops from the high street corporate brands.


Spitalfields/Brick Lane communities are very strong, but they couldn't prevent the City encroaching.


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## Belushi (Oct 14, 2013)

ska invita said:


> arent they still trying to knock down Spitalfields? The trampling feet of gentrification take no prisoners


 
Think it's Smithfield they're trying to knock down?


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## han (Oct 14, 2013)

.. Fuckin ell!


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## han (Oct 14, 2013)

.


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## Treacle Toes (Oct 14, 2013)

leanderman said:


> L&Q owns a hell of a lot of Brixton, and does not generally allow right to buy, according to its tenants in my street.





Gramsci said:


> There is no RTB in Housing Association property. Its only for Council Housing. Unless a Council estate has transferred to an HA. Then existing tenants retain the right.



Both right. The 'Right to Acquire' does exist though, with conditions of course.

https://www.gov.uk/right-to-acquire-buying-housing-association-home/overview


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## Manter (Oct 14, 2013)

han said:


> And if you get rid of it, you never get it back, and we'll end up living in completely segregated ghettos, with the poor bussing into rich areas to work. Like America.


or Paris, closer to home


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## leanderman (Oct 14, 2013)

Manter said:


> or Paris, closer to home



This already happens with schools


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## editor (Oct 14, 2013)

ska invita said:


> han, you said you dont want the original traders to go, and would campaign to keep them there. keep rents down and so on.
> What do you think Champagne Bar people want? Do you think they want to trade next door to these people? I can say with all confidence they dont, and look forward to other high end retailers moving in, which will further boost their profits and realisation of a 5-store business empire. I bet they would be happy for rents to go up just to get these people bringing down the tone of the place out. And they know thats what will happen, thats why they've made the calculation to get in there early. Theyre the not very thin edge of a sparkling-stinking-cheese wedge


Even if they actively want it to happen or not, that's almost certainly what is going to happen, and that is why I remained thoroughly opposed to them opening here. 

From what I gather, they put down a huge sum of money to get the unit, and are now paying a rent that is far in excess of what the traditional traders are paying. 

If Fromage do well, then there will be many other well-heeled West End empires seeking to expand into the market, and that will result in yet more small local businesses being shunted out by the increased rents.

And Brixton Village certainly has form for upping the rents.







Granville Arcade July 2010

http://www.urban75.org/blog/save-our-shops-brixton-village-battles-against-rent-hikes/


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## editor (Oct 14, 2013)

han said:


> I feel the community in Brixton is strong enough to prevent a total wipeout, with a coherent 'save the market' campaign.


If the community showed no interest in uniting against something as blatantly divisive as Champagne and fucking Fromage, what hope is there for them uniting against anything else?

It's not like it takes a genius to work out what them moving into the market represents for the smaller traders.


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## cuppa tee (Oct 14, 2013)

leanderman said:


> This already happens with schools


.... I thought distance was an important factor in school selection ?


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## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Oct 14, 2013)

editor said:


> If the community showed no interest in uniting against something as blatantly divisive as Champagne and fucking Fromage, what hope is there for them uniting against anything else?



Maybe it just needs something a bit more than a shouty Facebook page.


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## teuchter (Oct 14, 2013)

editor said:


> If *the community showed no interest in uniting against something as blatantly divisive as Champagne and fucking Fromage*, what hope is there for them uniting against anything else?


Is this your assessment of the situation?


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## editor (Oct 14, 2013)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> Maybe it just needs something a bit more than a shouty Facebook page.


Well, that would have certainly helped.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 14, 2013)

editor said:


> If the community showed no interest in uniting against something as blatantly divisive as Champagne and fucking Fromage, what hope is there for them uniting against anything else?


maybe there is no longer a community in brixton, but perhaps there are several which have, on some issues, discrete interests.


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## teuchter (Oct 14, 2013)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> Maybe it just needs something a bit more than a shouty Facebook page.


How come no-one seems to get that the whole YUPPIES OUT thing is a parody of shouty facebook pages / internet warriors? 

I'd say that anyone with a serious interest in resisting the economic forces bearing on Brixton's markets would stay well away from anything promoted by them.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 14, 2013)

teuchter said:


> How come no-one seems to get that the whole YUPPIES OUT thing is a parody of shouty facebook pages / internet warriors?
> 
> I'd say that anyone with a serious interest in resisting the economic forces bearing on Brixton's markets would stay well away from anything promoted by them.


how come you don't seem to get that people demanding 'yuppies out' were about well before facebook became shouty, or even before facebook and the internet?


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## leanderman (Oct 14, 2013)

cuppa tee said:


> .... I thought distance was an important factor in school selection ?



Cash, or church often more important


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## leanderman (Oct 14, 2013)

editor said:


> If the community showed no interest in uniting against something as blatantly divisive as Champagne and fucking Fromage, what hope is there for them uniting against anything else?



The community is unlikely to be a homogenous group with identical interests and views.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 14, 2013)

leanderman said:


> The community is unlikely to be a homogenous group with identical interests and views.


yes we've moved on now.


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## cuppa tee (Oct 14, 2013)

leanderman said:


> Cash, or church often more important


I know Alleynes school in Dulwich run a coach down to Stockwell and Brixton, but that would mostly be for the well off to  bus kids to somewhere posh at considerable expense, at the other extreme you have the Durand experiment where the plan is  to ship the kids out of the city to a rural boarding school but that one seems to be having trouble getting off the ground despite the politicians fondness for the plans.


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## editor (Oct 14, 2013)

leanderman said:


> The community is unlikely to be a homogenous group with identical interests and views.


A community doesn't need to be a "homogenous group with identical interests and views". Some shared interests and views is enough.


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## el-ahrairah (Oct 14, 2013)

As the urban75 community shows...


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## leanderman (Oct 14, 2013)

editor said:


> A community doesn't need to be a "homogenous group with identical interests and views". Some shared interests and views is enough.



even then. and it's unlikely to stop a cheese shop. it might stop a Tesco from time to time


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## Yelkcub (Oct 14, 2013)

cuppa tee said:


> I know Alleynes school in Dulwich run a coach down to Stockwell and Brixton, but that would mostly be for the well off to  bus kids to somewhere posh at considerable expense, at the other extreme you have the Durand experiment where the plan is  to ship the kids out of the city to a rural boarding school but that one seems to be having trouble getting off the ground despite the politicians fondness for the plans.



Is Alleyn posh? I've footy against their Vets. We won by double figures. They were very nice about it. Figures.


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## cuppa tee (Oct 14, 2013)

Yelkcub said:


> Is Alleyn posh? I've footy against their Vets. We won by double figures. They were very nice about it. Figures.


12 grand a year fees iirc but they do scholarships for some exceptional students.


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## Yelkcub (Oct 14, 2013)

cuppa tee said:


> 12 grand a year fees iirc but they do scholarships for some exceptional students.



I see. Not sports, or they don't play for the old boys/Vets.

Surprising the pitch/set-up wasn't better now I know.m


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## cuppa tee (Oct 14, 2013)

leanderman said:


> The problem is that the transformation of London has made private renting just about impossible for the majority.


Some more than others it appears.......
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-24372509


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## han (Oct 14, 2013)

editor said:
			
		

> If the community showed no interest in uniting against something as blatantly divisive as Champagne and fucking Fromage, what hope is there for them uniting against anything else?



Precisely. It's divisive. Some people like champagne and cheese, and feel positive about the changes (not me, I hasten to add). Others are angry about rising rents and see no hope for old-skool storeholders. Others feel a mixture of all these things, and others don't give a shit. 

It's only when everyone is united on one issue -(eg in the case of fighting supermarket chains in high streets in places like Hebden Bridge, for example) such a campaign can succeed. Which is why I think focussing any protest about the changing market area on C&F was misguided. 

People are far more likely to unite for one thing they want to save - our historic, diverse market area. The same way people will unite to save the high st from the chains. 

Focussing on this one shop was a distraction from the real issues and actually potentially damaging to any coherent campaign which could develop. 

In a positive note, at least people outside Brixton are thinking about the issues now. Even if they're mocking the protest :-(


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## editor (Oct 14, 2013)

han said:


> Precisely. It's divisive. Some people like champagne and cheese, and feel positive about the changes (not me, I hasten to add). Others are angry about rising rents and see no hope for old-skool storeholders. Others feel a mixture of all these things, and others don't give a shit.
> 
> It's only when everyone is united on one issue -(eg in the case of fighting supermarket chains in high streets in places like Hebden Bridge, for example) such a campaign can succeed. Which is why I think focussing any protest about the changing market area on C&F was misguided.
> 
> ...


But change isn't coming as one big issue. It's coming bit by bit, unit by unit, chain by chain, small trader closure by small trader closure.

If you're waiting around for the one big thing to suddenly unite the community together, it'll be too late.


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## han (Oct 14, 2013)

Saving the market, the whole area, is one big issue that's been around for many years!


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## han (Oct 14, 2013)

It just needs a coherent, united campaign. The Nour petition was one example of how the community quickly united, and it worked.


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## editor (Oct 14, 2013)

han said:


> It just needs a coherent, united campaign. The Nour petition was one example of how the community quickly united, and it worked.


But given the antipathy and apathy that greeted what I think is one of the biggest threats to the traditional market - the arrival of an expensive Covent Garden_ champagne bar_, for fuck's sake - I don't hold out much hope of this 'coherent' campaign arriving any time soon.

Even you don't seem to be particularly opposed to these chains arriving, yet they're the very thing that's going to irreversibly alter the character of the locality and price out the traditional traders, and, in turn, local residents as a result of increased rents.

There's no doubting that the Yuppies Out thing was unfocussed, chaotic and hardly a great advert for coherent campaigning, but at least they got off their arses and did something - and kickstarted a much needed debate.


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## han (Oct 14, 2013)

editor said:
			
		

> Even you don't seem to be particularly opposed to these chains arriving
> .



You clearly haven't read my posts properly. What utter bollocks!


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 14, 2013)

cuppa tee said:


> Some more than others it appears.......
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-24372509



FFS. I thought this had died out years ago. So instead of signs saying "No Blacks, No Irish" its done more subtly. If that is the right word for it.


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## Rushy (Oct 14, 2013)

Gramsci said:


> FFS. I thought this had died out years ago. So instead of signs saying "No Blacks, No Irish" its done more subtly. If that is the right word for it.


It didn't surprise me that it happens. But it surprised me that it happened in all ten agencies they tested.


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## boohoo (Oct 14, 2013)

editor said:


> But change isn't coming as one big issue. It's coming bit by bit, unit by unit, chain by chain, small trader closure by small trader closure.
> 
> If you're waiting around for the one big thing to suddenly unite the community together, it'll be too late.



Well why don't all the people passionate to keep the market diverse and shoppable for all wages start a campaign to get people to boycott the market if the owners don't keep the rents down. And to shop locally. And to know the background of shops - who are you supporting when you buy from them. Involve the traders. Campaign through action, through leaflets, through social media.

There has been a lot of grumbling on this thread, then the Yuppies Out action which a few (?) people attended and then that's it. This is not how you go about changing things.


----------



## editor (Oct 14, 2013)

boohoo said:


> Well why don't all the people passionate to keep the market diverse and shoppable for all wages start a campaign to get people to boycott the market if the owners don't keep the rents down. And to shop locally. And to know the background of shops - who are you supporting when you buy from them. Involve the traders. Campaign through action, through leaflets, through social media.
> 
> There has been a lot of grumbling on this thread, then the Yuppies Out action which a few (?) people attended and then that's it. This is not how you go about changing things.


You don't get things changed by just telling people what they should do either.


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## teuchter (Oct 14, 2013)

It's quite preposterous to argue that YUPPIES OUT contributed anything productive to the "debate" other than some comedy.


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## CH1 (Oct 15, 2013)

boohoo said:


> Well why don't all the people passionate to keep the market diverse and shoppable for all wages start a campaign to get people to boycott the market if the owners don't keep the rents down. And to shop locally. And to know the background of shops - who are you supporting when you buy from them. Involve the traders. Campaign through action, through leaflets, through social media.
> There has been a lot of grumbling on this thread, then the Yuppies Out action which a few (?) people attended and then that's it. This is not how you go about changing things.


According to what was said at the last Brixton Society committee meeting last Thursday the council are intending to impose a planning regime on the market such that both Brixton Village/Granville Arcade AND Market Row will have to keep at least 50% of units as retail EACH. This would not include the Reliance Arcade, which is unsuitable for A3 anyway. It will therefore be the market owners/managers responsibility to stay within the required balance of retail vs food/bar uses - individual applications for individual units will no longer be required.  How soon this comes in and how effective it will be is yet to be seen. I hope this is some some assistance to the discussion.
NB I don't think there is any likelihood of businesses being vetted according to how posh they are!


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## han (Oct 15, 2013)

I think I'm going to have to bow out of this 'conversation'. It's starting to become a little like banging one's head against a brick wall. Byebye.


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## editor (Oct 15, 2013)

teuchter said:


> It's quite preposterous to argue that YUPPIES OUT contributed anything productive to the "debate" other than some comedy.


What they think about anything is pretty much a sideshow, but what they most certainly did do was helped kickstart the debate and get people talking about the issues.

And I'm glad they did that.


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## Rushy (Oct 15, 2013)

CH1 said:


> According to what was said at the last Brixton Society committee meeting last Thursday the council are intending to impose a planning regime on the market such that both Brixton Village/Granville Arcade AND Market Row will have to keep at least 50% of units as retail EACH. This would not include the Reliance Arcade, which is unsuitable for A3 anyway. It will therefore be the market owners/managers responsibility to stay within the required balance of retail vs food/bar uses - individual applications for individual units will no longer be required.  How soon this comes in and how effective it will be is yet to be seen. I hope this is some some assistance to the discussion.
> NB I don't think there is any likelihood of businesses being vetted according to how posh they are!


This is sensible. Re poshness vetting, one of the well established foodie traders did tell me that businesses had been turned away by the market managers on account of being too glam or corporate to fit. I think one was an upmarket sushi bar but not entirely sure about that.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 15, 2013)

Any more news about the Harvey Nichols Christmas pop up fur shop in the village?


----------



## Hollis (Oct 15, 2013)

editor said:


> What they think about anything is pretty much a sideshow, but what they most certainly did do was helped kickstart the debate and get people talking about the issues.


 
Its certainly got me eating more cheese.


----------



## leanderman (Oct 15, 2013)

Hollis said:


> Its certainly got me eating more cheese.



Cheese is so last week: on Twitter, C+F has declared this to be 'Saucisson Week'.


----------



## gabi (Oct 15, 2013)

leanderman said:


> Cheese is so last week: on Twitter, C+F has declared this to be 'Saucisson Week'.



 Seriously? 

But, but... that's FOREIGN!


----------



## BigMoaner (Oct 15, 2013)

since this debated started, at the back of my mind i'm thinking, "i'd love to go in there and spend a lot on fancy cheeses". i can't afford to, but i'd love a bit of that cheese.


----------



## editor (Oct 15, 2013)

BigMoaner said:


> since this debated started, at the back of my mind i'm thinking, "i'd love to go in there and spend a lot on fancy cheeses". i can't afford to, but i'd love a bit of that cheese.


You can stand outside with the rest of the poor people then, gazing at the items that you can't afford.


----------



## editor (Oct 15, 2013)

leanderman said:


> Cheese is so last week: on Twitter, C+F has declared this to be 'Saucisson Week'.


Let's bubble, but in a sausagey way!


----------



## Yelkcub (Oct 15, 2013)

BigMoaner said:


> since this debated started, at the back of my mind i'm thinking, "i'd love to go in there and spend a lot on fancy cheeses". i can't afford to, but i'd love a bit of that cheese.



Unless your are desperate for the branded experience and I'm sure you can source the cheese at an affordable price to buy and eat at home.


----------



## Winot (Oct 15, 2013)

Yelkcub said:


> Unless your are desperate for the branded experience and I'm sure you can source the cheese at an affordable price to buy and eat at home.


 
If you know how to do this do share! I'm not so sure it'd be that easy.


----------



## boohoo (Oct 15, 2013)

BigMoaner said:


> since this debated started, at the back of my mind i'm thinking, "i'd love to go in there and spend a lot on fancy cheeses". i can't afford to, but i'd love a bit of that cheese.



So save some money for a treat. Go in and ask for a taster (you know, like everyone does at the Farmers market). Are their cheeses more expensive than the farmers market? Was the Farmers Market the beginning of gentrification? Why wasn't there more of a fuss when the second hand market disappeared back in the 2000s?


----------



## Yelkcub (Oct 15, 2013)

Winot said:


> If you know how to do this do share! I'm not so sure it'd be that easy.



Menu here http://www.london-eating.co.uk/menu/41552.asp

Admittedly it only gives the name of a few of the cheeses

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morbier_cheese

http://thejoyofcheese.wordpress.com/2011/07/18/fromage-of-the-day-07-18-11-tomme-brebis-chevre/

Etc etc


----------



## boohoo (Oct 15, 2013)

editor said:


> You don't get things changed by just telling people what they should do either.



Of course not. But one action has not generated an impetus to get together and attempt to make a change.


----------



## Dexter Deadwood (Oct 15, 2013)

Concentrate on the cheese............


----------



## editor (Oct 15, 2013)

boohoo said:


> Why wasn't there more of a fuss when the second hand market disappeared back in the 2000s?


Different thing altogether: the second hand market slowly withered away rather than being swiftly replaced by ra-ra champagne bars and expanding upmarket chains,  and was a victim of cheap clothing imports more than anything else.


----------



## Yelkcub (Oct 15, 2013)

I've just googled the first one and it's widely available


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 15, 2013)

Yelkcub said:


> Menu here http://www.london-eating.co.uk/menu/41552.asp
> 
> Admittedly it only gives the name of a few of the cheeses
> 
> ...



your 'etc etc' is the potentially tricky bit. Easy to find out what the cheese is and where it comes from, but unless you travel to the place to buy it direct from the farmer, you need an intermediary.


----------



## Yelkcub (Oct 15, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> your 'etc etc' is the potentially tricky bit. Easy to find out what the cheese is and where it comes from, but unless you travel to the place to buy it direct from the farmer, you need an intermediary.



Dunno, the morbier is available at Waitrose and various websites deliver it....


----------



## editor (Oct 15, 2013)

boohoo said:


> Of course not. But one action has not generated an impetus to get together and attempt to make a change.


The start of any kind of campaign is letting people know about the actual issues and getting a debate going. And the getting publicity. 

I think we've made a start here.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 15, 2013)

Yelkcub said:


> I've just googled the first one and it's widely available



Hmmm. I've bought aged gouda from Asda. It was not too good, not a patch on the best stuff.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 15, 2013)

Yelkcub said:


> Dunno, the morbier is available at Waitrose and various websites deliver it....


And I bet it isn't cheap.


----------



## editor (Oct 15, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> And I bet it isn't cheap.


I'm devastated.


----------



## boohoo (Oct 15, 2013)

editor said:


> Different thing altogether: the second hand market slowly withered away rather than being swiftly replaced by ra-ra champagne bars and expanding upmarket chains,  and was a victim of cheap clothing imports more than anything else.



I understood that the rents kept rising which was making it hard to meet day to day running costs let alone make a living. Also some of the people moved on or passed away. 

I think it was fairly swift - it had gone from being maybe ten stalls on a Saturday in the mid-1980s to maybe fifteen to eighteen stores when second hand started it's transformation to vintage/retro. It then seem to disappear over the space of one to two years in the late 90s early 2000s. That is a considerably fast exit but having hung around on the stalls, I can understand how easy it was not to sell much. 

I don't think the impact of cheap clothing exports had quite been felt by that point and second hand markets are popular. Westmoreland Road market is now part of East Street market and still selling lots of crap!


----------



## editor (Oct 15, 2013)

boohoo said:


> I understood that the rents kept rising which was making it hard to meet day to day running costs let alone make a living. Also some of the people moved on or passed away.
> 
> I think it was fairly swift - it had gone from being maybe ten stalls on a Saturday in the mid-1980s to maybe fifteen to eighteen stores when second hand started it's transformation to vintage/retro. It then seem to disappear over the space of one to two years in the late 90s early 2000s. That is a considerably fast exit but having hung around on the stalls, I can understand how easy it was not to sell much.
> 
> I don't think the impact of cheap clothing exports had quite been felt by that point and second hand markets are popular. Westmoreland Road market is now part of East Street market and still selling lots of crap!


That's not as I remember it at all. A few of my friends worked those stalls and they said that it was simply a case of it becoming less popular over time (like a lot of street markets). I can certainly remember seeing it decline from a thriving market to one with little footfall - I've probably got some pictures somewhere.

And even if it was down to higher rent rises as you claim, I don't recall anyone mentioning it at the time, so it's not surprising that there was no local outcry.


----------



## fredfelt (Oct 15, 2013)

Winot said:


> If you know how to do this do share! I'm not so sure it'd be that easy.



To say this is a replacement for Champagne doesn't do it justice - but served cold it's dry, crisp and has plenty of bubbles.


----------



## boohoo (Oct 15, 2013)

editor said:


> I can certainly remember seeing it decline from a thriving market to one with little footfall - I've probably got some pictures somewhere.



Can you do a picture post about it? It had a long history and then was gone. I use to escape to the market when I was 15 and get amazing clothes for next to nothing.


----------



## editor (Oct 15, 2013)

boohoo said:


> Can you do a picture post about it? It had a long history and then was gone. I use to escape to the market when I was 15 and get amazing clothes for next to nothing.


It'll take some digging because some of the pics are going to be pre-digital (i.e. in big boxes)!

It went through several cycles of shrinking and expanding, but at its peak (maybe around 1997?), I can remember it stretched almost up to Valentia Place.


----------



## boohoo (Oct 15, 2013)

editor said:


> It'll take some digging because some of the pics are going to be pre-digital (i.e. in big boxes)!
> 
> It went through several cycles of shrinking and expanding, but at its peak (maybe around 1997?), I can remember it stretched almost up to Valentia Place.



Pre-digital - yes please!  I think it went further than Valentia Place some weeks. Lots of people wanted to have a pitch on a Saturday - I don't know if 1997 was it peak, it certainly was very busy in early 90s. I did a regular second hand clothes stall in Greenwich in 1992 so sometime after this - 93/94.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 15, 2013)

CH1 said:


> According to what was said at the last Brixton Society committee meeting last Thursday the council are intending to impose a planning regime on the market such that both Brixton Village/Granville Arcade AND Market Row will have to keep at least 50% of units as retail EACH. This would not include the Reliance Arcade, which is unsuitable for A3 anyway. It will therefore be the market owners/managers responsibility to stay within the required balance of retail vs food/bar uses - individual applications for individual units will no longer be required.  How soon this comes in and how effective it will be is yet to be seen. I hope this is some some assistance to the discussion.
> NB I don't think there is any likelihood of businesses being vetted according to how posh they are!



Thats good to hear. When the Council consulted on Brixton SPD I did say that they should limit any more loss of retail. I think other people did as well.


----------



## T & P (Oct 15, 2013)

Yelkcub said:


> Dunno, the morbier is available at Waitrose and various websites deliver it....


I'll certainly be interested in the reaction & debate that might generated by the eventual arrival of Waitrose to Brixton...


----------



## editor (Oct 15, 2013)

T & P said:


> I'll certainly be interested in the reaction & debate that might generated by the eventual arrival of Waitrose to Brixton...


Resigned defeat, probably.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 15, 2013)

editor said:


> Resigned defeat, probably.


Can you outline exactly what it is that you would object to about Waitrose opening in Brixton? As opposed to, say, Tesco, Sainsbury or Asda.


----------



## editor (Oct 15, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Can you outline exactly what it is that you would object to about Waitrose opening in Brixton? As opposed to, say, Tesco, Sainsbury or Asda.


Where did I say I was going to object?


----------



## aussw9 (Oct 15, 2013)

editor said:


> Just been talking to a couple of local traders today, in the market and in the arches.
> 
> I'm not going to speak for them, but they certainly seemed to be growing increasingly concerned about their next round of rent renewals as a result of upmarket West End businesses like C&F who have the financial resources to slap down large sums of cash for their expansion plans.



Apart from the wanky name and 'brand' this has to be my main concern about these guys. 

The majority of the new food ventures are all independent start ups, that have grown their businesses and at some have exported them to other parts of London. Just feels like a tipping point.


----------



## aussw9 (Oct 15, 2013)

Rushy said:


> This is sensible. Re poshness vetting, one of the well established foodie traders did tell me that businesses had been turned away by the market managers on account of being too glam or corporate to fit. I think one was an upmarket sushi bar but not entirely sure about that.



This surprises me, but at least it seems they are thinking about the character and I hate to say this word, but 'brand' that has been created recently.


----------



## SarfLondoner (Oct 15, 2013)

Rushy said:


> This is sensible. Re poshness vetting, one of the well established foodie traders did tell me that businesses had been turned away by the market managers on account of being too glam or corporate to fit. I think one was an upmarket sushi bar but not entirely sure about that.


 I wonder if the current stallholders are being told this just to appease them and they are just another part of lambeths plan to get the big boys in.


----------



## editor (Oct 15, 2013)

SarfLondoner said:


> I wonder if the current stallholders are being told this just to appease them and they are just another part of lambeths plan to get the big boys in.


I have zero expectations that the council will make any kind of credible effort to stop the Village/Market Row slowly being taken over my upmarket, expanding "independent" units, retail or not.


----------



## SarfLondoner (Oct 15, 2013)

editor said:


> I have zero expectations that the council will make any kind of credible effort to stop the Village/Market Row slowly being taken over my upmarket, expanding "independent" units, retail or not.


This is my belief too.


----------



## BigMoaner (Oct 15, 2013)

he loves it


----------



## leanderman (Oct 15, 2013)

T & P said:


> I'll certainly be interested in the reaction & debate that might generated by the eventual arrival of Waitrose to Brixton...



I predict there will be much use of the phrase 'final nail in the coffin of'


----------



## SarfLondoner (Oct 15, 2013)

BigMoaner said:


> View attachment 41932 he loves it


Hello were Cockney's.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 15, 2013)

So, what's the plan?


----------



## T & P (Oct 15, 2013)

leanderman said:


> I predict there will be much use of the phrase 'final nail in the coffin of'


Yes, it would certainly be an affront to us all if a supermarket partnership group known for treating its staff pretty decently and offering quality, responsibly sourced produce that happens to attract middle class customers were to open up in Brixton. I for one wouldn't put up with it.


----------



## Yelkcub (Oct 15, 2013)

T & P said:


> Yes, it would certainly be an affront to us all if a supermarket partnership group known for treating its staff pretty decently and offering quality, responsibly sourced produce that happens to attract middle class customers were to open up in Brixton. I for one wouldn't put up with it.




They oppressed me as a yoot too. My Saturday job at Brent X was offered on the condition I cut my then luscious locks.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 15, 2013)

Yelkcub said:


> They oppressed me as a yoot too. My Saturday job at Brent X was offered on the condition I cut my then luscious locks.



They made a man of you, hippy!


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Oct 15, 2013)

editor said:


> I have zero expectations that the council will make any kind of credible effort to stop the Village/Market Row slowly being taken over my upmarket, expanding "independent" units, retail or not.


 
I'm sure they don't want to, but would they be able to if they did want to do something about it? Are there any legal grounds they could use?


----------



## Yelkcub (Oct 15, 2013)

Nanker Phelge said:


> They made a man of you, hippy!



The couldn't break my spirit though. I was still tripping after Friday night at Camden Palace as I shoved trollies around the car park.


----------



## Belushi (Oct 15, 2013)

Nanker Phelge said:


> So, what's the plan?


 
You need to get that strip outside the tube intimidating for middle class visitors again.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 15, 2013)

Belushi said:


> You need to get that strip outside the tube intimidating for middle class visitors again.



Can I do violence or am I pronouncing a great socialist sermon?


----------



## BigMoaner (Oct 15, 2013)

if everyone took a shit in the corner where the metros are stacked then people would soon avoid.


----------



## TruXta (Oct 15, 2013)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Can I do violence or am I pronouncing a great socialist sermon?


How about a violent socialist sermon, where you thrash people around the heads with Trot tracts?


----------



## boohoo (Oct 15, 2013)

Nanker Phelge said:


> So, what's the plan?


Starts at 15 seconds in....


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 15, 2013)

Brixton before all this Gentrification:







Brixton Today


----------



## BigMoaner (Oct 15, 2013)

imagine how many apple products are on that boat.


----------



## cuppa tee (Oct 15, 2013)

BigMoaner said:


> imagine how many apple products are on that boat.


.....that doesn't look like White Ace they're drinking, not that white ace is strictly an apple product.


----------



## BigMoaner (Oct 15, 2013)

cuppa tee said:


> .....that doesn't look like White Ace they're drinking, not that white ace is strictly an apple product.


you can get white ace on itunes


----------



## leanderman (Oct 15, 2013)

cuppa tee said:


> .....that doesn't look like White Ace they're drinking, not that white ace is strictly an apple product.



Looks like white burgundy, ill served in champagne flutes.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 15, 2013)

I remember when it was all bongo players around here....


----------



## BigMoaner (Oct 15, 2013)

i am a cunt.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 15, 2013)

BigMoaner said:


> i am a cunt.


----------



## leanderman (Oct 15, 2013)

C+F in the news again today ... thanks to our friend Rosamund:

http://www.standard.co.uk/goingout/...ondon-town-8880872.html?origin=internalSearch


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 15, 2013)

Free Champagne = Free Publicity

It's an age old equation.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 15, 2013)

leanderman said:


> C+F in the news again today ... thanks to our friend Rosamund:
> 
> http://www.standard.co.uk/goingout/...ondon-town-8880872.html?origin=internalSearch


classic


----------



## editor (Oct 15, 2013)

I passed a load of affluent-looking people sitting outside with their jolly flutes of champagne. My heart sunk a little.


----------



## Onket (Oct 15, 2013)

63 pages.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 15, 2013)

Onket said:
			
		

> 63 pages.



How many did Starbucks get?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 15, 2013)

editor said:


> I passed a load of affluent-looking people sitting outside with their jolly flutes of champagne. My heart sunk a little.


should have had a glass of bubbly to cheer yourself up. or failing that a large whisky.


----------



## editor (Oct 15, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> should have had a glass of bubbly to cheer yourself up. or failing that a large whisky.


Spending that amount of money on a tiny dribble of a drink in that place is unlikely to cheer me up much, to be honest.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 15, 2013)

editor said:


> Spending that amount of money on a tiny dribble of a drink in that place is unlikely to cheer me up much, to be honest.


i was in the decent offie on old compton street yesterday and they had some lush calvados. a drop of that and you'd have forgotten about the champing frotters for a few minutes.


----------



## leanderman (Oct 15, 2013)

editor said:


> I passed a load of affluent-looking people sitting outside with their jolly flutes of champagne. My heart sunk a little.



The flutes are rather elegant. 

But champagne is a ridiculously expensive way to have a drink/get drunk


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 15, 2013)

leanderman said:


> The flutes are rather elegant.
> 
> But champagne is a ridiculously expensive way to have a drink/get drunk


yeh best saved for when someone else is paying


----------



## editor (Oct 15, 2013)

leanderman said:


> The flutes are rather elegant.


I'm not that much bothered about the container my drink comes in, to be honest.


----------



## killer b (Oct 15, 2013)

leanderman said:


> The flutes are rather elegant.
> 
> But champagne is a ridiculously expensive way to have a drink/get drunk


they were selling it for a tenner a bottle in co-op last week.


----------



## leanderman (Oct 15, 2013)

killer b said:


> they were selling it for a tenner a bottle in co-op last week.



Exactly. If you need to drink it, drink it at home for a third of the price


----------



## editor (Oct 15, 2013)

leanderman said:


> Exactly. If you need to drink it, drink it at home for a third of the price


I'd rather drink it at home with friends than sat in the middle of the market in a posh shop watching poor people do their shopping anyway.


----------



## leanderman (Oct 15, 2013)

editor said:


> I'm not that much bothered about the container my drink comes in, to be honest.



Apparently, it has an impact on the taste of different styles of wine.

But I can't say I have much noticed.


----------



## killer b (Oct 15, 2013)

leanderman said:


> Exactly. If you need to drink it, drink it at home for a third of the price


you could say the same about ale tbf.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 15, 2013)

killer b said:


> you could say the same about ale tbf.


and plenty of people do


----------



## boohoo (Oct 15, 2013)

Badgers said:


> How many did Starbucks get?



15 pages.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Oct 15, 2013)

boohoo said:


> 15 pages.



we must have been busy with other stuff that time.


----------



## TruXta (Oct 15, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> we must have been busy with other stuff that time.


NO EXCUSES


----------



## killer b (Oct 15, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> and plenty of people do


absolutely. but 'oh you might as well have it at home at a fraction of the price' argument strikes me as particularly trite. you could apply it to pretty much every single thing you could possibly buy out.


----------



## editor (Oct 15, 2013)

killer b said:


> you could say the same about ale tbf.


You could but some pubs manage to make it worth paying the extra in exchange for some atmosphere/music/socialising/free live music etc.


----------



## TruXta (Oct 15, 2013)

I don't quite get certain people's POV here - is all champagne bad/posh/gentrifying? Or only that sold by posh people?


----------



## leanderman (Oct 15, 2013)

killer b said:


> you could say the same about ale tbf.





killer b said:


> absolutely. but 'oh you might as well have it at home at a fraction of the price' argument strikes me as particularly trite. you could apply it to pretty much every single thing you could possibly buy out.



Yes. But the stakes are raised at £7.50 a glass.

A pint is half that price out and delivers more alcohol.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 15, 2013)

boohoo said:
			
		

> 15 pages.



For shame


----------



## editor (Oct 15, 2013)

leanderman said:


> Yes. But the stakes are raised at £7.50 a glass.
> 
> A pint is half that price out and delivers more alcohol.


You can also get over 2.5 pints for that in the infinitely more sociable environs of the Albert. Or 7 cans of lager.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 15, 2013)

editor said:


> You can also get over 2.5 pints for that in the infinitely more sociable environs of the Albert. Or 7 cans of lager.


or one pint of lager and several cans used to top up the glass.


----------



## editor (Oct 15, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> or one pint of lager and several cans used to top up the glass.


That is the traditional way.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 15, 2013)

TruXta said:


> I don't quite get certain people's POV here - is all champagne bad/posh/gentrifying? Or only that sold by posh people?


i think on this occasion its not just what they do but the way that they do it


----------



## ska invita (Oct 15, 2013)

glasses definitely make a difference - i cant drink any cold drink in a mug for example


----------



## boohoo (Oct 15, 2013)

ska invita said:


> glasses definitely make a difference - i cant drink any cold drink in a mug for example


posho!


----------



## ska invita (Oct 15, 2013)

boohoo said:


> posho!



i just appreciate the shape of a glass is all!
champagne in a pint glass? it doesnt work - it needs sipping and a flute forces that
i like to drink pints of cider with a straw too though


----------



## boohoo (Oct 15, 2013)

ska invita said:


> i just appreciate the shape of a glass is all!
> champagne in a pint glass? it doesnt work - it needs sipping and a flute forces that
> i like to drink pints of cider with a straw too though



oh dear. Next you're gonna tell me you don't smoke butt rollies (with a nice warm mug of special brew...)


----------



## ska invita (Oct 15, 2013)

someone explained to me why a brandy glass needs to be so big the other day... i was too pissed to remember why though. The smell?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 15, 2013)

ska invita said:


> i just appreciate the shape of a glass is all!
> champagne in a pint glass? it doesnt work - it needs sipping and a flute forces that
> i like to drink pints of cider with a straw too though


champagne in a pint glass does work. specially if you're pouring it from a magnum, so there's a couple of pints of the stuff.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 15, 2013)

boohoo said:


> oh dear. Next you're gonna tell me you don't smoke butt rollies (with a nice warm mug of special brew...)


special brew is best from the can i find, or the bottle if you can find one. i quit smoking years ago


----------



## boohoo (Oct 15, 2013)

TruXta said:


> I don't quite get certain people's POV here - is all champagne bad/posh/gentrifying? Or only that sold by posh people?


It's a champagne bar in Brixton whilst Coldharbour ward is one of the poorest areas in the country.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 15, 2013)

a pint of champagne sounds quite fun tbh


----------



## boohoo (Oct 15, 2013)

ska invita said:


> special brew is best from the can i find, or the bottle if you can find one. i quit smoking years ago



Special brew is only alright if cold and drunk quickly. Anyway now a days a whiff of alcohol makes me feel tipsy... how times have changed.


----------



## TruXta (Oct 15, 2013)

boohoo said:


> It's a champagne bar in Brixton whilst Coldharbour ward is one of the poorest areas in the country.


That I get, but some peeps seem to have it in for champagne. Each to their own. As you were.


----------



## boohoo (Oct 15, 2013)

TruXta said:


> That I get, but some peeps seem to have it in for champagne. Each to their own. As you were.



Shhhh. Don't tell anyone but I have a bottle of champers at home.


----------



## TruXta (Oct 15, 2013)

boohoo said:


> Shhhh. Don't tell anyone but I have a bottle of champers at home.


I have 5. All gifts needless to say.


----------



## salem (Oct 15, 2013)

ska invita said:


> a pint of champagne sounds quite fun tbh


Not quite champagne but I got threatened with being kicked out of a pub once (The New Rose on Essex Road I think) for asking for a bottle of wine split two ways in pint glasses. My logic was sound as the place was packed with people and we didn't have a seat.


----------



## spanglechick (Oct 15, 2013)

heh. i can confirm that the albert will quite happily sell you a bottle of fizzy wine and one glass.  although if you join two straws together you can forego the glass altogether...


----------



## teuchter (Oct 15, 2013)

It costs more to see a film at the Ritzy than to buy a glass of champagne. In fact it even costs more than buying three blocks of mature cheddar out of Iceland which would last you much longer than a film would (not to mention the mild cheddar, which the rich people don't buy). I have often seen the poshos in there queuing for their tickets and buying them with their wealth, all clearly visible from the public square outside.

Also, I heard that some people living in coldharbour ward buy fancy cameras, and then go around using them in full view, instead of just using the camera on their phone like the poor people do.

Something needs to be done. I suggest going and finding people that look like the kind of people that you imagine do these things all the time, and then writing about it on the internet.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 15, 2013)

teuchter said:


> It costs more to see a film at the Ritzy than to buy a glass of champagne. I have often seen the poshos in there queuing for their tickets and buying them with their wealth, all clearly visible from the public square outside.
> 
> Also, I heard that some people living in coldharbour ward buy fancy cameras, and then go around using them in full view, instead of just using the camera on their phone like the poor people do.
> 
> Something needs to be done. I suggest going and finding people that look like the kind of people that you imagine do these things all the time, and then writing about it on the internet.


perhaps you could in future try to make reading your posts a more enjoyable experience than gnawing on damp cardboard


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 15, 2013)

So other than the Yuppies and Hipster, who else do we want rid of from our dream Brixton utopia?


----------



## TruXta (Oct 15, 2013)

Nanker Phelge said:


> So other than the Yuppies and Hipster, who else do we want rid of from our dream Brixton utopia?


Old men.


----------



## Onket (Oct 15, 2013)

Nanker Phelge said:


> So other than the Yuppies and Hipster, who else do we want rid of from our dream Brixton utopia?



Anyone who arrived after 1992.


----------



## Dan U (Oct 15, 2013)

Any kind of cliché


----------



## boohoo (Oct 15, 2013)

Onket said:


> Anyone who arrived after 1992.


Isn't that most of urban? It'll be me, Minnie and Gramsci having a chat.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 15, 2013)

I was here in 1991....kipping on a sofa on Endymion Road.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 15, 2013)

TruXta said:


> Old men.



How old is old?


----------



## boohoo (Oct 15, 2013)

Nanker Phelge said:


> I was here in 1991....kipping on a sofa on Endymion Road.



So that'll be four of us...


----------



## TruXta (Oct 15, 2013)

Nanker Phelge said:


> How old is old?


37.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 15, 2013)

TruXta said:


> 37.



Shit. I'm out. So long suckers!


----------



## TruXta (Oct 15, 2013)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Shit. I'm out. So long suckers!


I made sure to disqualify myself (37 this summer).


----------



## Onket (Oct 15, 2013)

Nanker Phelge said:


> So other than the Yuppies and Hipster, who else do we want rid of from our dream Brixton utopia?



Red trousers.


----------



## boohoo (Oct 15, 2013)

TruXta said:


> Old men.


Old women can hang around?


----------



## sleaterkinney (Oct 15, 2013)

TruXta said:


> 37.


How old is middle-aged?


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 15, 2013)

Onket said:


> Red trousers.



and biege, and mustard.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 15, 2013)

boohoo said:


> Old women can hang around?



Someone has to raise the new Brixton kids with clean minds and poverty driven ambitions.


----------



## TruXta (Oct 15, 2013)

boohoo said:


> Old women can hang around?


Yes.

Wait, why am I getting a vote?


sleaterkinney said:


> How old is middle-aged?


35. Yet fools delude themselves into thinking its 50.


----------



## Manter (Oct 15, 2013)

boohoo said:


> So that'll be four of us...


Are people who *left* Brixton allowed? I think Onket may be out...


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 15, 2013)

sleaterkinney said:


> How old is middle-aged?


five years older than truxta


----------



## TruXta (Oct 15, 2013)

Manter said:


> Are people who *left* Brixton allowed? I think Onket may be out...


They're the ones that come back and point and say "I remember when this was fields/ice rinks/Bradys/Cooltan".


----------



## TruXta (Oct 15, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> five years older than truxta


Qabalistic middle-age?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 15, 2013)

TruXta said:


> Qabalistic middle-age?


no, it's always five years older than you to permit you to claim you're no longer entirely out of your youth


----------



## TruXta (Oct 15, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> no, it's always five years older than you to permit you to claim you're no longer entirely out of your youth


What about Hugh Hefner?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 15, 2013)

TruXta said:


> What about Hugh Hefner?


what about hugh hefner?


----------



## TruXta (Oct 15, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> what about hugh hefner?


He's 80 and claims youth. He just married a 26 year old!

Your theory is bunkum is what I'm saying. Anyway, I might crack open a bottle of champers now to celebrate Ingurland's WC victry.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 15, 2013)

TruXta said:


> He's 80 and claims youth. He just married a 26 year old!
> 
> Your theory is bunkum is what I'm saying. Anyway, I might crack open a bottle of champers now to celebrate Ingurland's WC victry.


you do that. then have another. and another. drink until you can barely remember your own name let alone your address.


----------



## TruXta (Oct 15, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> you do that. then have another. and another. drink until you can barely remember your own name let alone your address.


Nah, that sounds a bit much.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 15, 2013)

TruXta said:


> Nah, that sounds a bit much.


not enough: you'll still be thirsty in the morning


----------



## SarfLondoner (Oct 15, 2013)

TruXta said:


> He's 80 and claims youth. He just married a 26 year old!
> 
> Your theory is bunkum is what I'm saying. Anyway, I might crack open a bottle of champers now to celebrate Ingurland's WC victry.


Any cheese with that?


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 15, 2013)

Expelled Brixton residents enjoying their banishment due to age restrictions.


----------



## TruXta (Oct 15, 2013)

SarfLondoner said:


> Any cheese with that?


Some co-op mature cheddar is all I can rustle up.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 15, 2013)

TruXta said:


> Some co-op mature cheddar is all I can rustle up.



not as good as Icelands....


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 15, 2013)

I remember when it was just a Bejam....


----------



## TruXta (Oct 15, 2013)

Nanker Phelge said:


> not as good as Icelands....


Never had Iceland's - even when I lived in Brixton I never shopped there as I had Lidl around the corner.


----------



## gaijingirl (Oct 15, 2013)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Expelled Brixton residents enjoying their banishment due to age restrictions.



look you've posted enough pictures of yourself on the naked urbanites thread nanker.. do you really to sully the Brixton forum too...


----------



## SarfLondoner (Oct 15, 2013)

TruXta said:


> Some co-op mature cheddar is all I can rustle up.


Enjoy!


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 15, 2013)

TruXta said:


> Never had Iceland's - even when I lived in Brixton I never shopped there as I had Lidl around the corner.



Fucking snob


----------



## TruXta (Oct 15, 2013)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Fucking snob


Europhile knob, me.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 15, 2013)

gaijingirl said:


> look you've posted enough pictures of yourself on the naked urbanites thread nanker.. do you really to sully the Brixton forum too...



What do you mean 'enough'?


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 15, 2013)

TruXta said:


> Europhile knob, me.



Someone did mention it, but I don't pay heed to rumor.


----------



## TruXta (Oct 15, 2013)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Someone did mention it, but I don't pay heed to rumor.


Oh it's true. I'm a proud continental.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 15, 2013)

TruXta said:


> Oh it's true. I'm a proud continental.



Yes, it did start with a C if I recall....


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 15, 2013)

So...we have:

Yuppies
Hipsters
Men of 37 years and over
Wearers of Red, Beige and Mustard Colored Trousers
Anyone who got here after 1992

We better arrange some trains to transport these lot out to the camps suburbs


----------



## Ms T (Oct 15, 2013)

boohoo said:


> Isn't that most of urban? It'll be me, Minnie and Gramsci having a chat.


 
And me!  Gentrifying since 1993.


----------



## gaijingirl (Oct 15, 2013)

Ms T said:


> And me!  Gentrifying since 1993.



you're a year too late to fulfill the very strict criteria... come and join us in the camps..


----------



## el-ahrairah (Oct 15, 2013)

Nanker Phelge said:


> So...we have:
> 
> Yuppies
> Hipsters
> ...




corrected for you.


----------



## Paulie (Oct 15, 2013)

Nanker Phelge said:


> I remember when it was just a Bejam....


Iceland was Murray's Meat Market wasn't it?


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Oct 15, 2013)

Nanker Phelge said:


> So...we have:
> 
> Yuppies
> Hipsters
> ...



That's all very well but I don't think anyone on here is up to spotting the actual hipsters. We'll need to clear out everyone under 30 just to be safe.


----------



## Paulie (Oct 15, 2013)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> That's all very well but I don't think anyone on here is up to spotting the actual hipsters. We'll need to clear out everyone under 30 just to be safe.



I look forward to like most posts like being a like sea of like emoticons.

I must be middle-aged as youngsters seem to go for the same haircuts I had in 1983.  They even say 'Ream' like I did. Things'll be back to being 'Safe and Crucial' in no time.


----------



## Yelkcub (Oct 15, 2013)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> That's all very well but I don't think anyone on here is up to spotting the actual hipsters. We'll need to clear out everyone under 30 just to be safe.



Tbh, quite of the few the Urbs I've seen photos of here look like the hipsters they hate.


----------



## Crispy (Oct 15, 2013)

Nanker Phelge said:


> and biege, and mustard.


My co-worker has the complete coloured trouser set, including sky blue. His name's not rupert, but it's of that ilk. He goes sailing a lot.
These are the particular facts. Any generalisations you may wish to make are your own


----------



## TruXta (Oct 15, 2013)

Crispy said:


> My co-worker has the complete coloured trouser set, including sky blue. His name's not rupert, but it's of that ilk. He goes sailing a lot.
> These are the particular facts. Any generalisations you may wish to make are your own


What colours are allowed?


----------



## killer b (Oct 16, 2013)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> That's all very well but I don't think anyone on here is up to spotting the actual hipsters. We'll need to clear out everyone under 30 just to be safe.


tbh, i think for most of the people on here 'everyone under 30' is what defines a hipster.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 16, 2013)

teuchter said:


> It costs more to see a film at the Ritzy than to buy a glass of champagne.


Its true, and the cost of cinema tickets are another thing that have become prohibitively expensive for many people. PeckhamPlex is probably the last affordable cinema in London.

This is the thing, we have out of control inequality in London and those at the bottom of that inequality are getting priced out of public life, never mind being priced out of being able to feed, warm and house themselves.

Where can you buy cheap food at a market in south london? I can think of Brixton, Peckham, Deptford and I hope East Street still. People travel to Brixton from all around to do their food shopping - I travel in to Peckham, but its not got the transport links that Brixton has. Brixtons cheap food market is feeding a lot of people, many already struggling to make ends meet.

Theres a tipping point, the spending habits of new richer Brixton residents are more than capable of dominating 'the market' of the area - they spend more, on high end products and activities, other retailers move in to get their share of all this money being thrown around, and the margins necessary to make a living selling cheap wares collapse as rents go up. It is not impossible that Brixton will lose all its market stalls over the next decade. 10 more years of articles from Rosamund and it'll get there. There'll be an unaffordable farmers market of course and regular 'foodie fayres'.

The result of that is inequality increases yet further, and public retail space and activities affordable to poorer Londoners disappear, and inequality deepens further still. I know im increasingly feeling priced out of public life, pubs are too expensive, music events are too expensive, transport is too expensive, football is too expensive etc etc etc. Its partly why i spend so much time on the internet! If I had the money id be out enjoying what the city has to offer.  A shitty market may not be much but at least its affordable!


----------



## Badgers (Oct 16, 2013)

Anyone know if C&F has music playing? I am thinking that The Lighthouse Family could work. Perhaps jazz on a Sunday and the occasional new romantic track thrown in to wake up the crowds?


----------



## Dan U (Oct 16, 2013)

Surely it's God Save The Queen on repeat.


----------



## Winot (Oct 16, 2013)

Good post ska invita. It seems that a combination of inequality and an effectively limitless supply of rich customers results in a failure of the 'free market' in supplying the needs of the poorest. I'd like to see more discussion on this.


----------



## Crispy (Oct 16, 2013)

TruXta said:


> What colours are allowed?


Black.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 16, 2013)

Crispy said:


> My co-worker has the complete coloured trouser set, including sky blue. His name's not rupert, but it's of that ilk. He goes sailing a lot.
> These are the particular facts. Any generalisations you may wish to make are your own



Where is the shop that sells this stuff. I've never seen one!


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 16, 2013)

ska invita said:


> This is the thing, we have out of control inequality in London and those at the bottom of that inequality are *getting priced out of public life*, never mind being priced out of being able to feed, warm and house themselves.



This is the real underlying issue as far as I'm concerned.

When people can't even afford a bus out of their own post code you make them prisoners. The 'regeneration' and 'gentrification' process simply prices them out of the prison yard and into their cells.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 16, 2013)

killer b said:


> tbh, i think for most of the people on here 'everyone under 30' is what defines a hipster.



So we're basically left with poor people (who don't meet any of the criteria above), old women (37+) and children (until the age of hipster).

Brixton will be a much brighter place?

What about the blacks, the gays and the jews?


----------



## killer b (Oct 16, 2013)

Nanker Phelge said:


> What about the blacks, the gays and the jews?


do they have moustaches?


----------



## Rushy (Oct 16, 2013)

killer b said:


> do they have moustaches?


Children and ladies over 37 all with moustaches. Sounds like my kinda place.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 16, 2013)

killer b said:


> do they have moustaches?



Some will, I'm sure.


----------



## killer b (Oct 16, 2013)

lime pits for them.


----------



## BigMoaner (Oct 16, 2013)

awesome beard, bro.


----------



## BigMoaner (Oct 16, 2013)

who the fuck does he think he is, seriously ^


----------



## BigMoaner (Oct 16, 2013)

age of narcissism.

i am probably being unfair.


----------



## Manter (Oct 16, 2013)

BigMoaner said:


> who the fuck does he think he is, seriously ^


Just some poor model in a post Sebastian Chabal age. Good looking guy... Though it looks like he's wearing a dribble cloth


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 16, 2013)

BigMoaner said:


> age of narcissism.
> 
> i am probably being unfair.


You're probably getting old.


----------



## BigMoaner (Oct 16, 2013)

it's not even attached to any sort of scene/music/drugs/litearture. it's just wearing a big beard and tache in the smuggist way possible and visiting vintage markets.  or am i mistaken? what posses a man to look like that?


----------



## Dan U (Oct 16, 2013)

BigMoaner said:


> awesome beard, bro.
> 
> View attachment 41965



I saw that person well not actually him but basically him trundling down the escalator at Victoria yesterday while chewing on some kind of clay pipe.


----------



## Crispy (Oct 16, 2013)

Fashion is weird


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Oct 16, 2013)

Crispy said:


> Fashion is weird


 
Innit. Obviously that's a model made up by a stylist - so magazine type fashion which always looks daft to most people. I can't see it has much to do with this thread tbh.


----------



## Boudicca (Oct 16, 2013)

I'm old enough to remember when long hair and earrings were unacceptable to our parents generation.  

You lot are turning into your parents. 

You are just jealous you can't look cool in turquoise trousers and a fulsome beard.

Leave young people alone.


----------



## salem (Oct 16, 2013)

BigMoaner said:


> awesome beard, bro.
> 
> View attachment 41965


We're looking at him the way as our parents/grandparents looked at punks with mohawks.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 16, 2013)

salem said:


> We're looking at him the way as our parents/grandparents looked at punks with mohawks.


I'm not.


----------



## spanglechick (Oct 16, 2013)

Seems a bit like male hipsters get a harder time because they're men.  The patriarchy indulges young women as they experiment with their image, but for men there must be a "reason" otherwise they're nobbers.


----------



## cesare (Oct 16, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> Seems a bit like male hipsters get a harder time because they're men.  The patriarchy indulges young women as they experiment with their image, but for men there must be a "reason" otherwise they're nobbers.


There's also the factor that "hipsters" may be from male dominated industries, so the ratio of male to female hipsters is higher.


----------



## Onket (Oct 16, 2013)

The list of who needs to 'get out of Brixton' is actually as follows-

-Anyone younger than 'me'
-Anyone who dresses differently to 'me'
-Anyone who doesn't like the music 'I' like
-Anyone who came to live in Brixton for any reason that isn't the reason 'I' came to live in Brixton
-Anyone who doesn't understand

It's like some kind of mid-life crisis where people have suddenly realised people younger than them have different interests, music and fashion. It's fear of the unknown.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 16, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> Seems a bit like male hipsters get a harder time because they're men.  The patriarchy indulges young women as they experiment with their image, but for men there must be a "reason" otherwise they're nobbers.


Sometimes a nobber is just a nob.


----------



## Dan U (Oct 16, 2013)

Crispy said:


> Fashion is weird



sure is. appreciate i am getting old but definitely found the pipe an odd touch.

i am a confirmed beard wearer so its not the beard thing i find odd.


----------



## Onket (Oct 16, 2013)

Crispy said:


> My co-worker has the complete coloured trouser set, including sky blue. His name's not rupert, but it's of that ilk. He goes sailing a lot.
> These are the particular facts. Any generalisations you may wish to make are your own


 
I work with someone who also has lots of coloured trousers. They are quite tight, with turn-ups. He wears slip on shoes and no socks and big rimmed geek glasses. He isn't called Rupert or anything like that, never goes sailing. He is in no way posh. He is very sound.

He is also very young.


----------



## Crispy (Oct 16, 2013)

Onket said:


> I work with someone who also has lots of coloured trousers. They are quite tight, with turn-ups. He wears slip on shoes and no socks and big rimmed geek glasses. He isn't called Rupert or anything like that, never goes sailing. He is in no way posh. He is very sound.
> 
> He is also very young.


We had the son of _famous wealthy business-owner _in here the other day on work experience (his dad is one of our clients). Now _that's _posh. Cravat, wavy haircut, navy blazer, says "yah" not "yeah" and is utterly and completely unaware and unconcerned with those beneath him.


----------



## BigMoaner (Oct 16, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> Seems a bit like male hipsters get a harder time because they're men.  The patriarchy indulges young women as they experiment with their image, but for men there must be a "reason" otherwise they're nobbers.


could be.


Onket said:


> The list of who needs to 'get out of Brixton' is actually as follows-
> 
> -Anyone younger than 'me'
> -Anyone who dresses differently to 'me'
> ...


anyone with a tache and beard as well (who is under 50)


----------



## BigMoaner (Oct 16, 2013)

it's the_ tache_, people, the fucking great tache that sticks out at the corners.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 16, 2013)

Onket said:


> He is also very young.



Bastard!


----------



## Onket (Oct 16, 2013)

Crispy said:


> We had the son of _famous wealthy business-owner _in here the other day on work experience (his dad is one of our clients). Now _that's _posh. Cravat, wavy haircut, navy blazer, says "yah" not "yeah" and is utterly and completely unaware and unconcerned with those beneath him.


 
I worked with a few people like that when I worked in The City.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 16, 2013)

Crispy said:


> utterly and completely unaware and unconcerned with those beneath him.



Why would you be aware unless they were uncomfortable to walk over....


----------



## TruXta (Oct 16, 2013)

I don't mind beards, or taches, or even cravats on certain people, but I do not like those tight coloured trousers.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 16, 2013)

I think I'm gonna spend the afternoon in the posh burger place sneering at the champagne drinkers looking out at the poor people looking in at us all.


----------



## BigMoaner (Oct 16, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> Seems a bit like male hipsters get a harder time because they're men.  The patriarchy indulges young women as they experiment with their image, but for men there must be a "reason" otherwise they're nobbers.


they don't get a harder time. they're running tings.


----------



## BigMoaner (Oct 16, 2013)

Nanker Phelge said:


> I think I'm gonna spend the afternoon in the posh burger place sneering at the champagne drinkers looking out at the poor people looking in at us all.





Nanker Phelge said:


> I think I'm gonna spend the afternoon in the posh burger place sneering at the champagne drinkers looking out at the poor people looking in at us all.


dont forget your bongos.


----------



## Onket (Oct 16, 2013)

TruXta said:


> I don't mind beards, or taches, or even cravats on certain people, but I do not like those tight coloured trousers.


 
Neither do I. I just don't wear them. Some people (I'm not saying you) seem to have some kind of life mission to pick fault with and sneer at anyone outside of their own little bubble (no pun intended).


----------



## cuppa tee (Oct 16, 2013)

TruXta said:


> I don't mind beards, or taches, or even cravats on certain people, but I do not like those tight coloured trousers.


tight coloured ? do you mean "american tan " ?


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 16, 2013)

BigMoaner said:


> dont forget your bongos.



don't play 'em anymore.....so 90s!


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 16, 2013)

Onket said:


> Neither do I. I just don't wear them. Some people (I'm not saying you) seem to have some kind of life mission to pick fault with and sneer at anyone outside of their own little bubble (no pun intended).



Life is like a bar of Aero


----------



## Onket (Oct 16, 2013)

Nanker Phelge said:


> don't play 'em anymore.....so 90s!


 
But the nineties were where we still want to be, remember!


----------



## TruXta (Oct 16, 2013)

cuppa tee said:


> tight coloured ? do you mean "american tan " ?


No, I mean tight trousers with loud colours.


Onket said:


> Neither do I. I just don't wear them. Some people (I'm not saying you) seem to have some kind of life mission to pick fault with and sneer at anyone outside of their own little bubble (no pun intended).


Fuck that, I'll sneer as much as I want to.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 16, 2013)

BigMoaner said:


> dont forget your bongos.



I'm taking me posh camera instead. Take some pics to aid and abet my campaign against the incoming threat!

I might even wear a cheese slice.


----------



## Onket (Oct 16, 2013)

TruXta said:


> Fuck that, I'll sneer as much as I want to.


 
Perhaps you'll stop when you grow up?


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 16, 2013)

Onket said:


> But the nineties were where we still want to be, remember!



Speak for yourself, Tonto.


----------



## TruXta (Oct 16, 2013)

Onket said:


> Perhaps you'll stop when you grow up?


Nah. What is life without illusory enemies and perceived slights?


----------



## Onket (Oct 16, 2013)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Speak for yourself, Tonto.


 
I'm not speaking for myself, I'm speaking for everyone.


----------



## Onket (Oct 16, 2013)

TruXta said:


> Nah. What is life without illusory enemies and perceived slights?


 
Normal.


----------



## BigMoaner (Oct 16, 2013)

Onket said:


> Normal.


stop hating on the haters


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 16, 2013)

Onket said:


> I'm not speaking for myself, I'm speaking for everyone.



I'm sure they value your assistance. As much as the poor people value the middle class revolutionaries standing up for them against the upper class champagne army.


----------



## BigMoaner (Oct 16, 2013)

Onket said:


> But the nineties were where we still want to be, remember!


nothing good has happened in the world since 1998, fact.


----------



## Onket (Oct 16, 2013)

BigMoaner said:


> nothing good has happened in the world since 1998, fact.


 
Good things were well over by '98.


----------



## Manter (Oct 16, 2013)

Onket said:


> The list of who needs to 'get out of Brixton' is actually as follows-
> 
> -Anyone younger than 'me'
> -Anyone who dresses differently to 'me'
> ...


I want all those people to stay, as a Brixton made up of people like me would be tedious as hell 

I'm really not proper Urbanz


----------



## Manter (Oct 16, 2013)

BigMoaner said:


> they don't get a harder time. they're running tings.


What are hipsters running


----------



## BigMoaner (Oct 16, 2013)

Manter said:


> What are hipsters running



brixton these days


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 16, 2013)

Manter said:


> What are hipsters running



sports day

http://designtaxi.com/news/353121/Hipsters-In-Berlin-Organize-Their-Very-Own-Olympics/


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 16, 2013)

Say cheese......(and champagne)


----------



## BigMoaner (Oct 16, 2013)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Say cheese......(and champagne)



my massive forehead is AWESOME.


----------



## SarfLondoner (Oct 16, 2013)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Where is the shop that sells this stuff. I've never seen one!


This is true! Maybe you get 5 free pairs of loud fuck off trousers from Foxtons when you buy an overpriced flat from them.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 16, 2013)

BigMoaner said:


> my massive forehead is AWESOME.



doubles as a flash


----------



## SarfLondoner (Oct 16, 2013)

BigMoaner said:


> who the fuck does he think he is, seriously ^


Crispin Smythe Hembleton of Brixtonia,


----------



## BigMoaner (Oct 16, 2013)

SarfLondoner said:


> Crispin Smythe Hembleton of Brixtonia,



there's no way that he would move to Brixton now, far too mainstream. he'll be combing the coast for little seaside towns that other hipsters have not discovered yet.


----------



## BigMoaner (Oct 16, 2013)

standing on cliffs, letting the wind poetically blow his hair and beard and fucking tache, thinking he is some artisan sailor from the 18th century.


----------



## SarfLondoner (Oct 16, 2013)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Say cheese......(and champagne)


Spam Alert!


----------



## el-ahrairah (Oct 16, 2013)

Onket said:


> Neither do I. I just don't wear them. Some people (I'm not saying you) seem to have some kind of life mission to pick fault with and sneer at anyone outside of their own little bubble (no pun intended).



*waves*


----------



## BigMoaner (Oct 16, 2013)

god i'm bitter. time to go. getting old.


----------



## fortyplus (Oct 16, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> The patriarchy indulges young women.



always has


----------



## rutabowa (Oct 16, 2013)

i just had a look at the last few pages of this thread as i thought i was once vaguely following it, I have literally not got a single clue what anyone is talking about now tho.


----------



## leanderman (Oct 16, 2013)

Vaguely remember being 'commissioned to review' F+C. So may try the champagne at lunch.


----------



## Manter (Oct 16, 2013)

leanderman said:


> Vaguely remember being 'commissioned to review' F+C. So may try the champagne at lunch.


vaguely remember?!  were you drunk?


----------



## leanderman (Oct 16, 2013)

Manter said:


> vaguely remember?!  were you drunk?



In a galaxy several thousand posts ago


----------



## Rushy (Oct 16, 2013)

leanderman said:


> Vaguely remember being 'commissioned to review' F+C. So may try the champagne at lunch.


I hope you have a better first experience than mine when I dropped in to buy cheese this week. I don't think I've ever been served by anyone quite so obnoxious. I thought it was supposed to be French rustic - not French Parisian. Don't think I'll be rushing back.


----------



## leanderman (Oct 16, 2013)

Rushy said:


> I hope you have a better first experience than mine when I dropped in to buy cheese this week. I don't think I've ever been served by anyone quite so obnoxious. I thought it was supposed to be French rustic - not French Parisian. Don't think I'll be rushing back.



How odd. Guy who served me was charming. It's not difficult to fake a smile.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 16, 2013)

HA! HA! WE WENT THERE!!!!


----------



## Onket (Oct 16, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> *waves*


 
Wasn't saying it was you, either, tbf.


----------



## Onket (Oct 16, 2013)

Manter said:


> I want all those people to stay, as a Brixton made up of people like me would be tedious as hell
> 
> I'm really not proper Urbanz


 
I completely agree with you. I am baffled why someone moving into this area who is totally different from existing residents would, 15 or so years later think it's acceptable to have a go at people moving into this area who are totally different from existing residents.


----------



## *groundhogday (Oct 16, 2013)

The future is multi-lingual, lift your noses from your beer / paper there is a big wave that is breaking over all the people who live and work in London and call it home....throughout it s inner and outer suburbs ...the biggest demographic change for 50, maybe 100 years - there is not a lot anyone can do about it, they are coming because London is the most exciting safest world city around at the moment because it is a safe haven from Syria, Libya, Egypt, India, Russia and the Euro zone crisis
Brixton is one of the ripples in the pond ...
this is bigger than making cardboard placards and saying down with maggie..out out out
read this from the NY times London correspondent 
www.nytimes.com/2013/10/13/opinion/sunday/londons-great-exodus.html?smid=tw-share&_r=1& 
*they are* leaving fulham, west end , hampstead - selling to the incomers and moving out ...but not too far .......i know ....lets go to Brixton ! i hear there is a Waitrose coming


----------



## salem (Oct 16, 2013)

leanderman said:


> How odd. Guy who served me was charming. It's not difficult to fake a smile.



Was the view of the poor people as good as everyone says?


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 16, 2013)

Onket said:


> I completely agree with you. I am baffled why someone moving into this area who is totally different from existing residents would, 15 or so years later think it's acceptable to have a go at people moving into this area who are totally different from existing residents.



Meet the new boss. Same as the old boss.


----------



## leanderman (Oct 16, 2013)

salem said:


> Was the view of the poor people as good as everyone says?



They erect a screen around your table so you don't have to see any poor people


----------



## Onket (Oct 16, 2013)

leanderman said:


> They erect a screen around your table so you don't have to see any poor people


 
On request, presumably? If you want your view of The Poors unrestricted, you can.

Perhaps they do restricted view seats/tables where the drinks cost slightly less?


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 16, 2013)

Onket said:


> On request, presumably? If you want your view of The Poors unrestricted, you can.
> 
> Perhaps they do restricted view seats/tables where the drinks cost slightly less?


No.


----------



## Onket (Oct 16, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> No.


 
You've been? Bit far from Bristol isn't it?


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 16, 2013)

Onket said:


> You've been? Bit far from Bristol isn't it?


No.


----------



## Onket (Oct 16, 2013)

I'll think you'll find it is quite far from Bristol. Even with whiskey goggles.


----------



## BigMoaner (Oct 16, 2013)

leanderman said:


> They erect a screen around your table so you don't have to see any poor people


country's fucked.


----------



## editor (Oct 16, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> No.





butchersapron said:


> No.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 16, 2013)




----------



## T & P (Oct 16, 2013)

This thread now has more posts than years have passed since baby Jesus was born


----------



## Manter (Oct 16, 2013)

leanderman said:


> How odd. Guy who served me was charming. It's not difficult to fake a smile.


On your feet all day serving people who barely register you as an individual? I used to struggle to fake a smile sometimes too...


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 16, 2013)

And it's still a little kiddy thread compared to many others.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 16, 2013)

Manter said:


> On your feet all day serving people who barely register you as an individual? I used to struggle to fake a smile sometimes too...


No personal pride in working for some rich cunts? In the quality of the goods their bosses  supply chain tells them is a good mark up? They should _also _be very happy to just rushy and his radiant face. _How delighted we are to see you and your tache. We are, of course, not being ironic._


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## BigMoaner (Oct 16, 2013)

i got cheese


----------



## BigMoaner (Oct 16, 2013)

"i'm an old artisan sailor man, and i sail the seven seas and read rimbaud and i'm different to everyone around me". where you from mate? "basingstoke".  ^^^


----------



## Rushy (Oct 16, 2013)

Manter said:


> On your feet all day serving people who barely register you as an individual? I used to struggle to fake a smile sometimes too...


I didn't say he lacked charm. I said he was downright obnoxious.


----------



## cesare (Oct 16, 2013)

BigMoaner said:


> "i'm an old artisan sailor man, and i sail the seven seas and read rimbaud and i'm different to everyone around me". where you from mate? "basingstoke".  ^^^


Why did you change that from Swindon? Onket


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 16, 2013)

Rushy said:


> I didn't sa
> 
> I didn't say he lacked charm. I said he was downright obnoxious.


Maybe he was trying to tell you something?


----------



## TruXta (Oct 16, 2013)

A butchers' block was all this thread needed to re-ignite


----------



## killer b (Oct 16, 2013)

i approve of obnoxious service industry staff. shows they've got some fight left in 'em.


----------



## BigMoaner (Oct 16, 2013)

killer b said:


> i approve of obnoxious service industry staff. shows they've got some fight left in 'em.


 depends. i can understand general disinterest, but not rudeness. don't take it out on me, as i wouldn't take it out on then.


----------



## TruXta (Oct 16, 2013)

killer b said:


> i approve of obnoxious service industry staff. shows they've got some fight left in 'em.


As I've said before, I'd rather take competent cunts over incompetent happy chappies 9 times out of 10.


----------



## Onket (Oct 16, 2013)

cesare said:


> Why did you change that from Swindon? Onket


 
Did it say Swindon? I would have fucking pissed myself if I'd seen that.


----------



## cesare (Oct 16, 2013)

Onket said:


> Did it say Swindon? I would have fucking pissed myself if I'd seen that.


It did


----------



## Stigmata (Oct 16, 2013)

What's wrong with growing a big beard? It's the ultimate egalitarian men's fashion statement. Kings and homeless people alike can do it


----------



## TruXta (Oct 16, 2013)

Stigmata said:


> What's wrong with growing a big beard? It's the ultimate egalitarian men's fashion statement. Kings and homeless people alike can do it


Growing beards is egalitarian? Tell that to my brother who couldn't grow a beard to save his life.


----------



## leanderman (Oct 16, 2013)

Annoyingly, the champagne is pretty good: Alexandre Le Brun, £7.50/glass, £25/bt). Two thirds red grapes makes it balanced, not acidic. 

But I still can't see many people drinking there, not least because champagne is a waste of money. The cheese counter may work though.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 16, 2013)

leanderman said:


> Annoyingly, the champagne is pretty good: Alexandre Le Brun, £7.50/glass, £25/bt). Two thirds red grapes makes it balanced, not acidic.
> 
> But I still can't see many people drinking there, not least because champagne is a waste of money. The cheese counter may work though.


ChrisFilter's yer man to talk to about cheese - he knows it all and wears his wisdom like pearls rather than chains


----------



## lighterthief (Oct 16, 2013)

Isn't £25 pretty reasonable for a bottle of champagne?  Used to pay nearly that in an off licence I seem to recall.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 16, 2013)

lighterthief said:


> Isn't £25 pretty reasonable for a bottle of champagne?  Used to pay nearly that in an off licence I seem to recall.


here's some prices from sainsbury's http://www.mysupermarket.co.uk/shelves/champagne_and_sparkling_wines_in_sainsburys.html


----------



## teuchter (Oct 16, 2013)

In a similar vein to C&F, I see Brixton's yuppie brewery is now in business -

http://www.brixtonbuzz.com/2013/10/...launch-party-at-brixtons-craft-beer-co-today/

Last time I was in that Craft Beer place it was quite noticeable how full it was of pushy ra-ra and rugby types. Sad, as it was usually quite friendly in there when it was the Hive bar. For ale drinking I prefer the Crown and Anchor myself.



> *Electric*
> _Inspired by Electric Avenue, the beating heart of Brixton and made with New World hops, this full-bodied IPA is packed with energy and attitude. Electric perfectly balances malty sweetness and hoppy bitterness with a floral, citrus tropical fruit hit._
> 
> *Effra*
> ...



As per most yuppie ales, they are being marketed using the kind of language previously reserved for wine and champagne (and perhaps fancy cheese).


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 16, 2013)

teuchter said:


> In a similar vein to C&F, I see Brixton's yuppie brewery is now in business -
> 
> http://www.brixtonbuzz.com/2013/10/...launch-party-at-brixtons-craft-beer-co-today/
> 
> ...


most artisans would have a fit if they saw the prices of these so-called 'artisan' ales.


----------



## editor (Oct 16, 2013)

teuchter said:


> In a similar vein to C&F, I see Brixton's yuppie brewery is now in business -
> 
> As per most yuppie ales, they are being marketed using the kind of language previously reserved for wine and champagne (and perhaps fancy cheese).


I don't like the Craft Beer place at all. I find it soulless, characterless, coldly lit and uninviting, and would agree that the Crown & Anchor is a much better bet.

That blurb about the beer - "pale ale raises a glass to the 1920′s market arcade where local cobblers and tailors still practise their craft" - really is cringey too.

Anyone know how much the beers are selling for?


----------



## leanderman (Oct 16, 2013)

lighterthief said:


> Isn't £25 pretty reasonable for a bottle of champagne?  Used to pay nearly that in an off licence I seem to recall.



Yep. But I'd rather three bottles of wine.


----------



## Rushy (Oct 16, 2013)

I just paid £3.90 for a pint. Bottles were £2.95. 

Not a single reference to the riots in sight.


----------



## leanderman (Oct 16, 2013)

editor said:


> I don't like the Craft Beer place at all. I find it soulless, characterless, coldly lit and uninviting, and would agree that the Crown & Anchor is a much better bet.
> 
> That blurb about the beer - "pale ale raises a glass to the 1920′s market arcade where local cobblers and tailors still practise their craft" - really is cringey too.
> 
> Anyone know how much the beers are selling for?




£2.50/bt in Market Row Wines. They're quite good. Sweeter, less hoppy.


----------



## Rushy (Oct 16, 2013)

It'd be nice if they turned the aircon off upstairs. It was freezing.


----------



## boohoo (Oct 16, 2013)

teuchter said:


> For ale drinking I prefer the Crown and Anchor myself.



I don't like the Crown and Anchor  - it is my personal Champagne and Fromage. The pub is pretty solidly white middle class - not baring much resemblance to the local demographic (though Stockwell does have some very posh bits). This end of Stockwell is being demolished to make way for lots of overpriced ugly flats to sell to the new incomers. Very little shared-ownership and what is, is 50% start at 150K. This pub is just right for all those looking to find somewhere just outside of Brixton.


----------



## teuchter (Oct 16, 2013)

Does "New World hops" mean they are imported from Australia or something?


----------



## teuchter (Oct 16, 2013)

boohoo said:


> I don't like the Crown and Anchor  - it is my personal Champagne and Fromage. The pub is pretty solidly white middle class



Agreed, but they do have nice beer. And German sausage platters for not a bad price.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 16, 2013)

teuchter said:


> Does "New World hops" mean they are imported from Australia or something?


australia is not the new world. the americas are the new world.


----------



## boohoo (Oct 16, 2013)

teuchter said:


> Agreed, but they do have nice beer. And German sausage platters for not a bad price.



Food is expensive. Not a beer connoisseur, in fact I've become the shandy lady :/ So beer not high on my agenda. However if they had cake (or cheese....)


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Oct 16, 2013)

boohoo said:


> I don't like the Crown and Anchor  - it is my personal Champagne and Fromage. The pub is pretty solidly white middle class - not baring much resemblance to the local demographic (though Stockwell does have some very posh bits). This end of Stockwell is being demolished to make way for lots of overpriced ugly flats to sell to the new incomers. Very little shared-ownership and what is, is 50% start at 150K. This pub is just right for all those looking to find somewhere just outside of Brixton.



I do like the Crown and Anchor but it's very obviously a gentrifying influence - maybe more than any individual unit in the Village due to its location. It's pretty hard to see why it's apparently OK when other places aren't tbh.


----------



## editor (Oct 16, 2013)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> I do like the Crown and Anchor but it's very obviously a gentrifying influence - maybe more than any individual unit in the Village due to its location. It's pretty hard to see why it's apparently OK when other places aren't tbh.


Maybe because people will always prefer to see a pub staying open - even if they don't like its current reincarnation - than seeing it being sold off for lifestyle flats and lost to the community forever?


----------



## boohoo (Oct 16, 2013)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> I do like the Crown and Anchor but it's very obviously a gentrifying influence - maybe more than any individual unit in the Village due to its location. It's pretty hard to see why it's apparently OK when other places aren't tbh.



I wouldn't mind it so much if it had baby change and disabled friendly toilets so that my family including my parents could pop down there for a meal for a treat but it is not realistically family friendly. So it fails at serving lots of different types of members of the community.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Oct 16, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> australia is not the new world. the americas are the new world.


Australia is new world as far as wines go.


----------



## leanderman (Oct 16, 2013)

boohoo said:


> I wouldn't mind it so much if it had baby change and disabled friendly toilets so that my family including my parents could pop down there for a meal for a treat but it is not realistically family friendly. So it fails at serving lots of different types of members of the community.



High on my list of important features for a pub is toilets on the same floor as the bar.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 16, 2013)

sleaterkinney said:


> Australia is new world as far as wines go.


pity we're not talking about wines.


----------



## Dan U (Oct 16, 2013)

leanderman said:


> High on my list of important features for a pub is toilets on the same floor as the bar.



I read that as behind the bar. Messy.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 16, 2013)

leanderman said:


> High on my list of important features for a pub is toilets on the same floor as the bar.


high on my list of important features for a pub is toilets. it doesn't matter if they're on the same floor as the bar: in many pubs they aren't because of space constraints such as the old crown on new oxford street.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 16, 2013)

Dan U said:


> I read that as behind the bar. Messy.


considering the piss some places serve it wouldn't always be surprising


----------



## Onket (Oct 16, 2013)

[quote"=teuchter, post: 12630063, member: 34017"]Agreed, but they do have nice beer. And German sausage platters for not a bad price.[/quote]

I wasn't that impressed with the beer on the one occasion I went down there. It's not open at lunchtime either, is it?

Anyone know if the Craft place is open at lunchtime?


----------



## Onket (Oct 16, 2013)

Apologies,  by the way. My phone regularly fucks up quotes. Contrary to Pickman's model's claims, it isn't intentional.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 16, 2013)

Onket said:


> Apologies,  by the way. My phone regularly fucks up quotes. Contrary to Pickman's model's claims, it isn't intentional.


pity the contents of your posts are your own responsibility and you can't blame the phone


----------



## Onket (Oct 16, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> pity the contents of your posts are your own responsibility and you can't blame the phone



Excellent stuff as usual, Pickman's model. I am hurting inside.


----------



## Rushy (Oct 16, 2013)

leanderman said:


> How odd. Guy who served me was charming. It's not difficult to fake a smile.


Turns out the guy who served us (or ultimately didn't) is not a permanent member of staff but a cheese consultant who will shortly be leaving them once he has trained people up. They have had quite a few complaints about him and struggle to control him when they are not there, but hang onto him because he isn't always an an arse* and really knows his  cheesy shit**. Apparently he's on the telly and people just love his abrasive personality. I'm clearly not in tune with the current trend for egotistical and petulant food connoisseur worship as his behaviour made me want to club him with a bottle of Colin***.

[*my words]
{**also my words]
[***yes really - Colin champagne].


----------



## Manter (Oct 16, 2013)

Rushy said:


> Turns out the guy who served us (or ultimately didn't) is not a permanent member of staff but a cheese consultant who will shortly be leaving them once he has trained people up. They have had quite a few complaints about him and struggle to control him when they are not there, but hang onto him because he isn't always an an arse* and really knows his  cheesy shit**. Apparently he's on the telly and people just love his abrasive personality. I'm clearly not in tune with the current trend for egotistical and petulant food connoisseur worship as his behaviour made me want to club him with a bottle of Colin***.
> 
> [*my words]
> {**also my words]
> [***yes really - Colin champagne].


Its difficult not to love a champagne called Colin.  Does the bottle have a face on it?


----------



## Rushy (Oct 16, 2013)

Manter said:


> Its difficult not to love a champagne called Colin.  Does the bottle have a face on it?


Not that I remember - but one of the bottles came dangerously close to getting one.

[according to my gf ]


----------



## editor (Oct 16, 2013)

Eme reported that the place was packed tonight, with the crowd all being of a predictably narrow demographic.

I don't think that's a particularly good omen for the market.


----------



## Manter (Oct 16, 2013)

Rushy said:


> Not that I remember - but one of the bottles came dangerously close to getting one.
> 
> [according to my gf ]


I can't really like that... But


----------



## leanderman (Oct 16, 2013)

Manter said:


> Its difficult not to love a champagne called Colin.  Does the bottle have a face on it?


Colin seems to be a common surname in that area - and Burgundy


----------



## oryx (Oct 16, 2013)

Rushy said:


> Turns out the guy who served us (or ultimately didn't) is not a permanent member of staff but a cheese consultant who will shortly be leaving them once he has trained people up. They have had quite a few complaints about him and struggle to control him when they are not there, but hang onto him because he isn't always an an arse* and really knows his  cheesy shit**. Apparently he's on the telly and people just love his abrasive personality. I'm clearly not in tune with the current trend for egotistical and petulant food connoisseur worship as his behaviour made me want to club him with a bottle of Colin***.
> 
> [*my words]
> {**also my words]
> [***yes really - Colin champagne].


 


How do I get to be a cheese consultant? I really like the idea of getting paid to eat cheese, maybe washed down with a glass or three of something decent, to go on TV and to stand about in Brixton Market being a miserable c**t when I feel like it.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 16, 2013)

Winot said:


> It seems that a combination of inequality and an effectively limitless supply of rich customers results in a *failure of the 'free market' in supplying the needs of the poorest*. I'd like to see more discussion on this.



Well the free market isnt exactly known for its cornucopia of gifts for the poor - tends to like eating them up and spitting them out. In this case eating up anyone too close to the centre of London and spitting them out as far away as possible.

From what I can see we're in a transition from the soft socialism policies of post WW2 which created one of the things that has given London its character in my lifetime, that of on the whole richer and poorer people living side by side, social planning deliberately tried to mix up class composition of neighborhoods...and we're moving into a new era of London that looks more like cities where the market has been allowed to run free and naturally divide people up on class lines - Paris gets mentioned, but US cities do this the most dramatically by the sounds of it.

We're not there yet but short of a shift in mainstream politics its a done deal. Yes its bigger financial winds that are having an effect, but ultimately its government policy, like knocking down all the social housing in inner city areas (peckham and elephant are ones i know about) and lying about replacing that housing, forcing people on housing benefits out of richer areas with the rate cap, people getting rehoused in seaside towns, refusing to stand up to landlords and property speculators and so on - but its also a more general strategic shift in government policies, which basically no longer even pretend to give a shit about what happens to the poorest. Maybe this is because the so called we're-all-middle-class-now-middle class decide elections, or maybe it was always the case I dont know.

Maybe that Notting HIll film wasn't an embarrassing mistake but a planning document?


----------



## ska invita (Oct 16, 2013)

editor said:


> Eme reported that the place was packed tonight, with the crowd all being of a predictably narrow demographic.


and whose fault is that? why dont poor people just not buy a packet of fags one day and get their bubble on? Sounds like they're really missing out on some bargains


----------



## Ms T (Oct 17, 2013)

leanderman said:


> Annoyingly, the champagne is pretty good: Alexandre Le Brun, £7.50/glass, £25/bt). Two thirds red grapes makes it balanced, not acidic.
> 
> But I still can't see many people drinking there, not least because champagne is a waste of money. The cheese counter may work though.


 
Isn't a bottle £45 not £25?  Champagne is one of the few wines that still come in 125ml glasses as standard, making 6 glasses in a bottle.  6 x £7.50 = £45.


----------



## leanderman (Oct 17, 2013)

Ms T said:


> Isn't a bottle £45 not £25?  Champagne is one of the few wines that still come in 125ml glasses as standard, making 6 glasses in a bottle.  6 x £7.50 = £45.



£25 must be the take-out price.


----------



## leanderman (Oct 17, 2013)

ska invita said:


> Well the free market isnt exactly known for its cornucopia of gifts for the poor - tends to like eating them up and spitting them out. In this case eating up anyone too close to the centre of London and spitting them out as far away as possible.
> 
> From what I can see we're in a transition from the soft socialism policies of post WW2 which created one of the things that has given London its character in my lifetime, that of on the whole richer and poorer people living side by side, social planning deliberately tried to mix up class composition of neighborhoods...and we're moving into a new era of London that looks more like cities where the market has been allowed to run free and naturally divide people up on class lines - Paris gets mentioned, but US cities do this the most dramatically by the sounds of it.
> 
> ...



It may be as much cock-up as conspiracy. 

Powers that be did not realise that, under EU free movement, among other factors, London would be so popular (7m to 9m, 2001-2018)

So they failed to build the necessary homes etc to cope. Forcing everyone further and further out.


----------



## Dexter Deadwood (Oct 17, 2013)

A "free market" for essential goods and services, like housing and health is incapable of providing those goods and services in an equitable manner, that is not it's purpose. Those that are economically excluded from the market are blamed and then socially excluded. Capitalism does not give a shit whether you have a roof over your head or food in your belly. It's amoral and so are those that buy into this human tragedy. 

Those that flaunt their wealth in Brixton now have nothing to fear, there is no resistance. They see the poverty, they screen themselves from it but they see it nonetheless. Biding their time, accumulating capital, not even waiting for the last of the barbarians to leave before congratulating themselves with a glass of champagne.


----------



## rutabowa (Oct 17, 2013)

Dan U said:


> I read that as behind the bar. Messy.


my favourite bar, the Pits in belgium, has toilets inside the bar:


----------



## rutabowa (Oct 17, 2013)

Dexter Deadwood said:


> Those that flaunt their wealth in Brixton now have nothing to fear, there is no resistance. They see the poverty, they screen themselves from it but they see it nonetheless. Biding their time, accumulating capital, not even waiting for the last of the barbarians to leave before congratulating themselves with a glass of champagne.


well written.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 17, 2013)

rutabowa said:


> my favourite bar, the Pits in belgium, has toilets inside the bar:



Drink piss and have piss without leaving the room.


----------



## rutabowa (Oct 17, 2013)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Drink piss and have piss without leaving the room.


drink piss and vomit. every so often during the night they just throw a bucket of bleach water over the floor.


----------



## Yelkcub (Oct 17, 2013)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Drink piss and have piss without leaving the room.



The efficiency gain would be lost to stage fright for me.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 17, 2013)

Can this thread keep going till Christmas?


----------



## Yelkcub (Oct 17, 2013)

Badgers said:


> Can this thread keep going till Christmas?



Are you planning some sort of present to the thread?


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 17, 2013)

Yelkcub said:


> The efficiency gain would be lost to stage fright for me.



Nah....it's easy. I've been to a few bars in france with a pisser in the bar and it's a great convenience. That is until you get pissed and try to hit the urinal without getting out of your seat.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 17, 2013)

Yelkcub said:


> Are you planning some sort of present to the thread?



There's probably enough bare faced hypocrisy on here to keep it alive post apocalypse.


----------



## cesare (Oct 17, 2013)

Badgers said:


> Can this thread keep going till Christmas?


Joyeux Noël


----------



## Yelkcub (Oct 17, 2013)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Nah....it's easy. I've been to a few bars in france with a pisser in the bar and it's a great convenience. That is until you get pissed and try to hit the urinal without getting out of your seat.



Not easy for me. I just can't piss stood near anyone. At all. Never have been able to.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 17, 2013)

Yelkcub said:


> Not easy for me. I just can't piss stood near anyone. At all. Never have been able to.



Can you drink champagne infront of poor people?


----------



## aussw9 (Oct 17, 2013)

Vomit....

http://www.standard.co.uk/goingout/...agne-is-the-toast-of-london-town-8880872.html 

Whats with the constant PR of this bar from this woman?


----------



## Yelkcub (Oct 17, 2013)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Can you drink champagne infront of poor people?



I'm sure I could, though I wouldn't want to.....


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 17, 2013)

Yelkcub said:


> I'm sure I could, though I wouldn't want to.....



Good.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Oct 17, 2013)

aussw9 said:


> Vomit....
> 
> http://www.standard.co.uk/goingout/...agne-is-the-toast-of-london-town-8880872.html
> 
> Whats with the constant PR of this bar from this woman?


 
Two factors I think: She's just moved to Brixton (she likes to write about herself) and she seems to be an incredibly lazy, half arsed excuse for a journalist. Something right on her doorstep suits her nicely.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 17, 2013)

aussw9 said:


> Vomit....
> 
> http://www.standard.co.uk/goingout/...agne-is-the-toast-of-london-town-8880872.html
> 
> Whats with the constant PR of this bar from this woman?


Free Champagne.


----------



## editor (Oct 17, 2013)

Enthusing about the 'right' sort of places in her neighbourhood also helps ensure that it maintains a direction that is comparable with her own self interest.

She wants to live in a  'nice' Brixton, so she will write and give great reviews to anything that fits her personal aspirations.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 17, 2013)

leanderman said:


> £25 must be the take-out price.


yeah, i worked in Oddbins years ago - champagne starts around £15-17, up to about £25 for Moet and then  from there the sky is the limit.


leanderman said:


> It may be as much cock-up as conspiracy.


its a clear disinterest in the fate of the poorest: anything other than building skyscrapers and attracting the rich to London, turning the uk into a tax haven, consolidating london as a center for banking, clearing social housing out of inner london, forcing those on housing benefits out of inner london, no shits given that day for affordable housing etc, etc - maybe not part of a Master Plan, but all carried out with only the interests of the rich at heart.


Dexter Deadwood said:


> Those that flaunt their wealth in Brixton now have nothing to fear, there is no resistance. They see the poverty, they screen themselves from it but they see it nonetheless.


the flaunting is what makes this place particularly bad taste. let them eat cheese!


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 17, 2013)

ska invita said:


> yeah, i worked in Oddbins years ago - champagne starts around £15-17, up to about £25 for Moet and then  from there the sky is the limit.


Your prices are a bit out of date, I think. It's more than that now, unless it's on offer. That said, Lidl does a very tasty Champagne for around £13.

My top tip for fizz is to buy NZ Lindauer. Used to be available for about £7 but then people cottoned on to how good it was and it's now about a tenner. As good as or better than low-end Champagne, and half the price.


----------



## DRINK? (Oct 17, 2013)

rutabowa said:


> drink piss and vomit. every so often during the night they just throw a bucket of bleach water over the floor.


 
sounds fucking awful, bet it reeks.


----------



## Crispy (Oct 17, 2013)

DRINK? said:


> sounds fucking awful, bet it reeks.


Can't be legal, unless Belgium haven't updated their building codes in the last 100 years.


----------



## Onket (Oct 17, 2013)

editor said:


> Enthusing about the 'right' sort of places in her neighbourhood also helps ensure that it maintains a direction that is comparable with her own self interest.
> 
> She wants to live in a  'nice' Brixton, so she will write and give great reviews to anything that fits her personal aspiration.


 
Exactly the same as you do, about 'your' Brixton, and articles on your websites.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 17, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Your prices are a bit out of date, I think. It's more than that now, unless it's on offer. That said, Lidl does a very tasty Champagne for around £13.


ah thats likely yeah i worked there about 12 years ago now, maybe longer even


----------



## rutabowa (Oct 17, 2013)

Crispy said:


> Can't be legal, unless Belgium haven't updated their building codes in the last 100 years.


if you get this place shut down i will not forgive you.


----------



## gabi (Oct 17, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Your prices are a bit out of date, I think. It's more than that now, unless it's on offer. That said, Lidl does a very tasty Champagne for around £13.
> 
> My top tip for fizz is to buy NZ Lindauer. Used to be available for about £7 but then people cottoned on to how good it was and it's now about a tenner. As good as or better than low-end Champagne, and half the price.



I used to find it hilarious when I lived in London that Lindauer was 7 quid and considered a good drop. We used to drink it as 15yo delinquents in the botanical gardens in Wellington as it was cheap n nasty


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 17, 2013)

gabi said:


> I used to find it hilarious when I lived in London that Lindauer was 7 quid and considered a good drop. We used to drink it as 15yo delinquents in the botanical gardens in Wellington as it was cheap n nasty


Dunno if it has changed since then, but I really like it. As I said, as good as most cheaper Champagnes.

Maybe you just had an unsophisticated 15-year-old palate.


----------



## Rushy (Oct 17, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Your prices are a bit out of date, I think. It's more than that now, unless it's on offer. That said, Lidl does a very tasty Champagne for around £13.
> 
> My top tip for fizz is to buy NZ Lindauer. Used to be available for about £7 but then people cottoned on to how good it was and it's now about a tenner. As good as or better than low-end Champagne, and half the price.


A mate of mine's Mum became a bit of a "heavy drinker" back when we were at school - late 80s. She decided to give up all together but would allow herself a cheeky glass of champagne every now and again as a treat. This evolved into a hefty Lindauer habit. We didn't really understand the circumstances and just thought it was very cool that she would pop a bottle every time we turned up at their house. I've never quite been able to break that association.


----------



## Manter (Oct 17, 2013)

Crispy said:


> Can't be legal, unless Belgium haven't updated their building codes in the last 100 years.


They don't even have a government- building codes are the least of their problems


----------



## Dan U (Oct 17, 2013)

Badgers said:


> Can this thread keep going till Christmas?



urban christmas meet up venue?


----------



## Rushy (Oct 17, 2013)

Crispy said:


> Can't be legal, unless Belgium haven't updated their building codes in the last 100 years.


This did cross my mind!


----------



## cuppa tee (Oct 17, 2013)

rutabowa said:


> my favourite bar, the Pits in belgium, has toilets inside the bar:


....... and graffiti in both.


----------



## rutabowa (Oct 17, 2013)

cuppa tee said:


> ....... and graffiti in both.


in both what?


----------



## cuppa tee (Oct 17, 2013)

rutabowa said:


> in both what?


Bar and toilet, you can drink piss and draw


----------



## rutabowa (Oct 17, 2013)

Rushy said:


> This did cross my mind!


really? was it the first thing that crossed your mind, "this must be against building regulations"?


----------



## Rushy (Oct 17, 2013)

rutabowa said:


> really? was it the first thing that crossed your mind, "this must be against building regulations"?


No. It was one of many things that crossed my mind. It appears to have been your eagerness to prove you street credentials which allowed you to imagine the word "first".


----------



## rutabowa (Oct 17, 2013)

Rushy said:


> No. It was one of many things that crossed my mind. It appears to have been your eagerness to prove you street credentials which allowed you to imagine the word "first".


YOU ARE TOTALLY NUTS.


----------



## Rushy (Oct 17, 2013)

rutabowa said:


> YOU ARE TOTALLY NUTS.


It has been said before. But never in caps as I recall


----------



## Crispy (Oct 17, 2013)

rutabowa said:


> really? was it the first thing that crossed your mind, "this must be against building regulations"?


It was the first thing that crossed my mind


----------



## TruXta (Oct 17, 2013)

Crispy said:


> It was the first thing that crossed my mind


You being you this is not surprising.


----------



## rutabowa (Oct 17, 2013)

Crispy said:


> It was the first thing that crossed my mind


I'VE ALREADY DEALT WITH YOU


----------



## Rushy (Oct 17, 2013)

Crispy said:


> It was the first thing that crossed my mind


Amongst the first things I noticed was that there isn't a puddle under either urinal. I don't think I've ever seen that in a gent's urinal. Very impressive.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 17, 2013)

Rushy said:


> A mate of mine's Mum became a bit of a "heavy drinker" back when we were at school - late 80s. She decided to give up all together but would allow herself a cheeky glass of champagne every now and again as a treat. This evolved into a hefty Lindauer habit. We didn't really understand the circumstances and just thought it was very cool that she would pop a bottle every time we turned up at their house. I've never quite been able to break that association.


working at oddbins (in Greenwich) as soon as the doors opened in the morning it was middle aged women buying wine and vodka that made up the majority of the business - lots of regulars- the daily mail is full of articles about it. I think i saw a stat that its the affluent middle class who drink the most in the UK.... can only find this at the mo: "Wealthy areas head alcohol table"  http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7045830.stm


----------



## innit (Oct 17, 2013)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> Two factors I think: She's just moved to Brixton (she likes to write about herself) and she seems to be an incredibly lazy, half arsed excuse for a journalist. Something right on her doorstep suits her nicely.


All her articles are either speaking her branes, or ripped off the internet, or sometimes both. Last week she had a particularly poor effort about dress at work ripped off from roll on friday.


----------



## leanderman (Oct 17, 2013)

editor said:


> Enthusing about the 'right' sort of places in her neighbourhood also helps ensure that it maintains a direction that is comparable with her own self interest.
> 
> She wants to live in a  'nice' Brixton, so she will write and give great reviews to anything that fits her personal aspirations.



I thought she said she lived in Camberwell


----------



## Rushy (Oct 17, 2013)

ska invita said:


> working at oddbins (in Greenwich) as soon as the doors opened in the morning it was middle aged women buying wine and vodka that made up the majority of the business - lots of regulars- the daily mail is full of articles about it. I think i saw a stat that its the affluent middle class who drink the most in the UK.... can only find this at the mo: "Wealthy areas head alcohol table"  http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7045830.stm


I can believe it. 

My Mum has a built in protection against it. One small glass of red and she's totally ratted - then falls asleep wherever she is. She's in her 70s now but it has always been thus.


----------



## Winot (Oct 17, 2013)

ska invita said:


> the flaunting is what makes this place particularly bad taste. let them eat cheese!



How do you know there's been flaunting?


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 17, 2013)

Winot said:


> How do you know there's been flaunting?



Brixton Beach just yesterday!


----------



## TruXta (Oct 17, 2013)

An actual beach in Brixton would've been awesome. Can't someone build one?


----------



## ska invita (Oct 17, 2013)

Winot said:


> How do you know there's been flaunting?


its an open-faced champagne bar in the middle of a market - how can it not be flaunting?


----------



## Badgers (Oct 17, 2013)

TruXta said:


> An actual beach in Brixton would've been awesome. Can't someone build one?



Perhaps Lambeth could contact the Mears brothers? It could be awesome


----------



## Winot (Oct 17, 2013)

ska invita said:


> its an open-faced champagne bar in the middle of a market - how can it not be flaunting?



Oh absolutely, I hate open-faced shops.  Especially all those Brixton fishmongers, flaunting their wares


----------



## editor (Oct 17, 2013)

Hard to flaunt a cheap bit of flounder, I would have thought.


----------



## TruXta (Oct 17, 2013)

editor said:


> Hard to flaunt a cheap bit of flounder, I would have thought.


Winot's argument is floundering.


----------



## cesare (Oct 17, 2013)

TruXta said:


> Winot's argument is floundering.


He's a dab hand at that.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 17, 2013)

Female fish flaunt fins to attract a mate


----------



## TruXta (Oct 17, 2013)

cesare said:


> He's a dab hand at that.


Uh huh.


----------



## cesare (Oct 17, 2013)

TruXta said:


> Uh huh.


You're meant to reply with another fish pun


----------



## Winot (Oct 17, 2013)

I've been done up like a kipper :-(


----------



## Rushy (Oct 17, 2013)

cesare said:


> You're meant to reply with another fish pun


You were skate ing on thin ice with the last one


----------



## cesare (Oct 17, 2013)

Rushy said:


> You were skate ing on thin ice with the last one


Quit your carping


----------



## Rushy (Oct 17, 2013)

cesare said:


> Quit your carping



You snappered first!


----------



## cesare (Oct 17, 2013)

Rushy said:


> You snappered first!


Oh, that's just brill


----------



## Badgers (Oct 17, 2013)




----------



## Rushy (Oct 17, 2013)

cesare said:


> Oh, that's just brill


I'm getting tired of listening to the same old tuna.


----------



## cesare (Oct 17, 2013)

Rushy said:


> I'm getting tired of listening to the same old tuna.


Pollacks.


----------



## Rushy (Oct 17, 2013)

cesare said:


> Pollacks.


Hmm. That's a bit rude. I think it's about time you came down from your perch.


----------



## Winot (Oct 17, 2013)

editor said:


> Hard to flaunt a cheap bit of flounder, I would have thought.



"Flaunting" requires intention on the part of the seller. It's got nothing to do with the price of the goods.


----------



## Crispy (Oct 17, 2013)

Fish puns? Well that's another 5 pages sorted.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 17, 2013)

Winot said:


> "Flaunting" requires intention on the part of the seller. It's got nothing to do with the price of the goods.


Not necessarily. Anyone who's visited a poor country is likely to know what it is like to sit there eating/drinking while people who couldn't possibly afford to do what you're doing walk by. The attitude of the onlooker is also important - you can be flaunting something without intending to, simply by being thoughtless.


----------



## Rushy (Oct 17, 2013)

Crispy said:


> Fish puns? Well that's another 5 pages sorted.


Shame there's no such thing as a moany old granddad fish.


----------



## cesare (Oct 17, 2013)

Rushy said:


> Hmm. That's a bit rude. I think it's about time you came down from your perch.


Stop casting your weight around, Musselini


----------



## Rushy (Oct 17, 2013)

cesare said:


> Stop casting your weight around, Musselini


This is way off topic.  We're supposed to be talking about Guppies Out.


----------



## editor (Oct 17, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Not necessarily. Anyone who's visited a poor country is likely to know what it is like to sit there eating/drinking while people who couldn't possibly afford to do what you're doing walk by. The attitude of the onlooker is also important - you can be flaunting something without intending to, simply by being thoughtless.


Indeed. Lambeth is one of the most deprived London boroughs [-] and Coldharbour is the poorest ward in Lambeth:


> Coldharbour is the poorest ward in Lambeth. Three in five residents are social housing tenants (61% v 38% overall); two thirds of whom rent from council ALMOs 38  (Lambeth Living and United Resident’s Housing) or TMO 39  and a third from housing associations (40% and 21%  respectively).
> 
> Almost exclusively, this housing is provided on housing estates (59%). Receipt of several government benefits is high; over a third receive child benefit (38% compared to 28%)  and housing benefit (34% v 21%), while one in five receive council tax benefit (22% v 14%), income support (20% v 12%) and tax credits (21% v 12%). More are unemployed and available for work (13% v 8%).
> 
> Coldharbour residents are among the most dissatisfied and disenfranchised in the borough. One in five are unhappy with their local area as a place to live (19% v 10%) and feel strongly that they cannot influence decisions affecting the local area (23% definitely disagree compared to 18% borough-wide). [-]


----------



## ska invita (Oct 17, 2013)

Winot said:


> "Flaunting" requires intention on the part of the seller. It's got nothing to do with the price of the goods.


interesting technical distinction  , but I think you should put your dicitonary definitions away, its really not complicated, I find this place offensive and others do too. If you dont understand why after 70 pages there's no hope explaining. Oh, and its just as much about the customers as it is the seller, in fact more so.

I dont know, maybe ive got some kind of archaic attitude to this, people seem more shameless about consumption these days... the list of things I find ostentatious in London is a long one.

but this is the emotional impact of the place - runs in tandem to the economic impact


----------



## Onket (Oct 17, 2013)

I look forward to you making the exact same point again in a few pages time.

And then again a few pages after that.

Fish puns are better, FFS.





Fin.


----------



## Onket (Oct 17, 2013)

leanderman said:


> I thought she said she lived in Camberwell


 
I think one of her articles said she was _from_ Camberwell.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 17, 2013)

editor said:


> Indeed. Lambeth is one of the most deprived London boroughs [-] and Coldharbour is the poorest ward in Lambeth:



No denying that. But if you live in social housing and have a job, you can probably, if you so wish, afford to go somewhere like C+F occasionally as a treat. It's not on quite the same scale as many holiday resorts around the world, where tourists sit in restaurants and spend the equivalent of a couple of weeks' local wages on a meal.


----------



## rutabowa (Oct 17, 2013)

I remember once being in the smoking areas in one of those bars on hoxton square drinking a pint that was probably about £4.50 (it was probably bought for me alright or something) and there was a homeless guy the other side of the perspex wall asking people inside the bar for 50p and everyone (including me yes) was like "ah sorry nothing to spare" and the guy was ranting about how everyone was sat there with £4.50 drink but noone had spare change.... that was me flaunting right there, even tho i wasn't conscious of it until he said that, but after he said it i came to a realisation.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 17, 2013)

Onket said:


> I look forward to you making the exact same point again in a few pages time.
> 
> And then again a few pages after that.
> 
> ...


im a fishco regular, ive had more than my fair share of those thanks



littlebabyjesus said:


> No denying that. But if you live in social housing and have a job, you can probably, if you so wish, afford to go somewhere like C+F occasionally as a treat. It's not on quite the same scale as many holiday resorts around the world, where tourists sit in restaurants and spend the equivalent of a couple of weeks' local wages on a meal.


 
well there's relative poverty and absolute poverty, the principles are much the same


----------



## Rushy (Oct 17, 2013)

rutabowa said:


> I remember once being in the smoking areas in one of those bars on hoxton square drinking a pint that was probably about £4.50 (it was probably bought for me alright or something) and there was a homeless guy the other side of the perspex wall asking people inside the bar for 50p and everyone (including me yes) was like "ah sorry nothing to spare" and the guy was ranting about how everyone was sat there with £4.50 drink but noone had spare change.... that was me flaunting right there, even tho i wasn't conscious of it until he said that, but after he said it i came to a realisation.


And so you don't go to pubs with windows any more?


----------



## rutabowa (Oct 17, 2013)

Rushy said:


> And so you don't go to pubs with windows any more?


----------



## Dan U (Oct 17, 2013)

rutabowa said:


> I remember once being in the smoking areas in one of those bars on hoxton square drinking a pint that was probably about £4.50 (it was probably bought for me alright or something) and there was a homeless guy the other side of the perspex wall asking people inside the bar for 50p and everyone (including me yes) was like "ah sorry nothing to spare" and the guy was ranting about how everyone was sat there with £4.50 drink but noone had spare change.... that was me flaunting right there, even tho i wasn't conscious of it until he said that, but after he said it i came to a realisation.


. Smart guy probably realised you all had 50p change


----------



## Onket (Oct 17, 2013)

ska invita said:


> im a fishco regular,


 
What is fishco?


----------



## Rushy (Oct 17, 2013)

rutabowa said:


>



But poor people are not stupid. They know people are drinking beer, wine and spirits in there.

Blocking the view only makes it easier for those inside.


----------



## rutabowa (Oct 17, 2013)

Rushy said:


> But poor people are not stupid. They know people are drinking beer, wine and spirits in there.


are you for real?


----------



## ska invita (Oct 17, 2013)

Onket said:


> What is fishco?


http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/fix-up-look-shark-fishco-coming-yo.315946/
not sure how doable it is from a phone, but it has been done by some
every Friday night, been going for a few months now


----------



## editor (Oct 17, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> No denying that. But if you live in social housing and have a job, you can probably, if you so wish, afford to go somewhere like C+F occasionally as a treat.


I could be wrong, but given the economic and social demographics of the area, I'd suggest that very few would be likely to 'treat' themselves to a £30 afternoon tea at C&F, or feel much inclination to do so, given the limited appeal of the place and the availability of far better value 'treats' elsewhere.

At times, it seems to me that the estate directly opposite the Village has become invisible to people arguing about all the far-ranging benefits the place is supposed to have brought to Brixton residents.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 17, 2013)

rutabowa said:


> are you for real?


Its genius - logic over bad taste - very classy. bottoms up!


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 17, 2013)

editor said:


> I could be wrong, but given the economic and social demographics of the area, I'd suggest that very few would be likely to 'treat' themselves to a £30 afternoon tea at C&F, or feel much inclination to do so, given the limited appeal of the place and the availability of far better value 'treats' elsewhere.


I'm sure you're right. Some will, though, just as some not so well off people take their not so well off mums to the Ritz for afternoon tea as a birthday treat. The scale of the inequality is of a different order.


----------



## Winot (Oct 17, 2013)

ska invita said:


> interesting technical distinction  , but I think you should put your dicitonary definitions away, its really not complicated, I find this place offensive and others do too. If you dont understand why after 70 pages there's no hope explaining. Oh, and its just as much about the customers as it is the seller, in fact more so.
> 
> I dont know, maybe ive got some kind of archaic attitude to this, people seem more shameless about consumption these days... the list of things I find ostentatious in London is a long one.
> 
> but this is the emotional impact of the place - runs in tandem to the economic impact



My questioning of your word "flaunting" does not mean that I do not understand why you and others find C+F offensive.  I do understand that, and even if I disagree with some/a lot of what has been said, the thread has made me examine some of my assumptions.

However, when you said


ska invita said:


> the flaunting is what makes this place particularly bad taste


I assumed that there has been some deliberate actions such as a Loadsamoney-like brandishing of champagne bottles.

If what you actually mean is that the selling/drinking of champagne in this manner is inherently "flaunting" then that's something else entirely (and revisiting why/whether champagne is inherently evil or a signifier would be a tedious re-run of the last 70 pages).

To be honest, your language reminded me a lot of the Daily Mail - "Here's a photo of the lovely Charlotte Church, flaunting her curves".  No she's not - she just happens to be curvy.


----------



## Rushy (Oct 17, 2013)

rutabowa said:


> are you for real?


Yes.
Which may be why I still don't understand your earlier point. You say that you came to the realisation that drinking a pint where someone who cannot afford one can see you through the window is, to all intents and purposes, flaunting. And... has that changed your behaviour? If so, how? If not, why not?


----------



## ska invita (Oct 17, 2013)

Onket is right, i am getting repetitive, but just a last word on this point: very publicly quaffing champagne in what i would describe as a poor market in one of the poorest corners of london is ostentatious, simple as that. ostentatious, flaunting, much the same word to me. Either way, you get the drift.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 17, 2013)

Rushy said:


> Yes.
> Which may be why I still don't understand your earlier point. You say that you came to the realisation that drinking a pint where someone who cannot afford one can see you through the window is, to all intents and purposes, flaunting. And... has that changed your behaviour? If so, how? If not, why not?
> 
> Confused from Tunbridge Wells


----------



## Rushy (Oct 17, 2013)

At what point does working at my laptop or browsing on my smartphone near a window in a swanky coffee shop become flaunting. That's £1,000 of gear. It might be £1,500 or more if I was editing photos I'd just taken.

Should I stay at home and do it?


----------



## rutabowa (Oct 17, 2013)

It's not complicated: just don't be a dick about it. if something makes you feel uncomfortable or guilty there is probably a reason why. if you never feel uncomfortable or guilty, well I guess you've won.


----------



## Rushy (Oct 17, 2013)

rutabowa said:


> It's not complicated: just don't be a dick about it. if something makes you feel uncomfortable or guilty there is probably a reason why. if you never feel uncomfortable or guilty, well I guess you've won.


Were you being a dick about it? Sounds like you were just drinking a pint.


----------



## editor (Oct 17, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I'm sure you're right. Some will, though, just as some not so well off people take their not so well off mums to the Ritz for afternoon tea as a birthday treat. The scale of the inequality is of a different order.


I really think that some people (and I don't mean you here) don't even come close to comprehending the levels of inequality and hardship that can be found mere metres from this champagne bar.

It sickens me to be honest, as does inane, trite and meaningless 'comparisons' with people owning smartphones or whatever. There's a world of difference between something that gives you social mobility (and perhaps work), and supping expensive champagne in a traditional market that sits in a ward with the highest levels of poverty in the borough.

I don't care if people want to call it 'flaunting' wealth or anything else, but I do know that it provides a stark, crystal clear focus on the horrendous levels of inequality in this area and the fast-growing divide between the haves and the have nots.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 17, 2013)

editor said:


> I really think that some people (and I don't mean you here) don't even come close to comprehending the levels of inequality and hardship that can be found mere metres from this champagne bar.
> 
> It sickens me to be honest, as does inane, trite and meaningless 'comparisons' with people owning smartphones or whatever. There's a world of difference between something that gives you social mobility (and perhaps work), and supping expensive champagne in a traditional market that sits in a ward with the highest levels of poverty in the borough.
> 
> I don't care if people want to call it 'flaunting' wealth or anything else, but I do know that it provides a stark, crystal clear focus on the horrendous levels of inequality in this area and the fast-growing divide between the haves and the have nots.


I agree with you about this, and a champagne bar is certainly very symbolic of this fast-growing divide. I don't deny that. Although the exclusion extends far beyond expensive bars, tbh. Even going to the cinema nowadays is a very expensive luxury for many.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Oct 17, 2013)

Champagne is supposed to be 'flaunted' isn't it? It's not just a nice thing that happens to be expensive (which I think applies to the cheese, for example), it's a thing that people buy precisely because of that. They don't chuck it around after F1 races because it's tasty (or even because they can spray it).

And the point of a champagne bar is that it's a casual few glasses of the stuff on a night out. Which is why the 'but this other pub serves it' argument is so weak. I expect nearly every pub in London has a bottle or two behind the bar in case a regular has a baby/gets married/gets a new job/otherwise gets carried away - that's how it's always been used and it is different to a champagne bar IMO.


----------



## Onket (Oct 17, 2013)

ska invita said:


> http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/fix-up-look-shark-fishco-coming-yo.315946/
> not sure how doable it is from a phone, but it has been done by some
> every Friday night, been going for a few months now



Looks complicated.


----------



## leanderman (Oct 17, 2013)

Onket said:


> Looks complicated.



Phew, that was almost an hour without a post


----------



## PartisanDulwich (Oct 17, 2013)

East Dulwich is going same way
I blame people selling up in Clapham and moving over here

East Dulwich once had large afro Caribbean and Irish community - the Irish went home and afro Caribbean community has left or died out

My boys infant school was 50% BME 50% white (and most of that was Irish) now nearly all white 

Once I had teachers and social workers, no more the case

Housing associations also seem to have sold property and moved out of the area (like Barry road)

Foxtons have helped social cleanse ED

We don't mind Bohemian arty types but please no more bankers with stay at home wives, demanding Iceland closes so Marks & spencers can move in

We need to be forceably highlighting social inequality locally and demanding affordable housing

The Council needs to play a role in this as well

by at very least pointing out problems, trends etc, or zoning areas ie Arts, 

I read a study from Canada that highlighted the fact that the more community activities an area has the more "progressive" they were likely to be


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 17, 2013)

editor said:


> Indeed. Lambeth is one of the most deprived London boroughs [-] and Coldharbour is the poorest ward in Lambeth:


 
Good link.

Why I decided to start the other thread for Social Housing issues. There is also a new Housing Activist group recently been set up.

Coldharbour Ward ( which is centred around Brixton and encompasses the existing social housing estates) still has a majority of social housing tenants. Even though social housing is under threat.

As ska invita has pointed out time and again C&F in the middle of a ward with a demographic is a wind up. It winds me up.


----------



## leanderman (Oct 17, 2013)

PartisanDulwich said:


> East Dulwich is going same way
> I blame people selling up in Clapham and moving over here
> 
> East Dulwich once had large afro Caribbean and Irish community - the Irish went home and afro Caribbean community has left or died out
> ...



Southwark has certainly played its part by furiously selling off its converted Victorian flats at auction.


----------



## gabi (Oct 18, 2013)

editor said:


> I really think that some people (and I don't mean you here) don't even come close to comprehending the levels of inequality and hardship that can be found mere metres from this champagne bar.
> 
> It sickens me to be honest, as does inane, trite and meaningless 'comparisons' with people owning smartphones or whatever. There's a world of difference between something that gives you social mobility (and perhaps work), and supping expensive champagne in a traditional market that sits in a ward with the highest levels of poverty in the borough.
> 
> I don't care if people want to call it 'flaunting' wealth or anything else, but I do know that it provides a stark, crystal clear focus on the horrendous levels of inequality in this area and the fast-growing divide between the haves and the have nots.



Are you at least going to accept that bars selling champagne in the coldharbour ward for roughly the same price have been going for more than ten years now? What sets this place apart?


----------



## teuchter (Oct 18, 2013)

PartisanDulwich said:


> East Dulwich is going same way



Are you posting from 10 years ago?


----------



## teuchter (Oct 18, 2013)

editor said:


> I really think that some people (and I don't mean you here) don't even come close to comprehending the levels of inequality and hardship that can be found mere metres from this champagne bar.
> 
> It sickens me to be honest, as does inane, trite and meaningless 'comparisons' with people owning smartphones or whatever. There's a world of difference between something that gives you social mobility (and perhaps work), and supping expensive champagne in a traditional market that sits in a ward with the highest levels of poverty in the borough.



Trite and meaningless? How much do you need to spend on a smartphone to gain "social mobility and perhaps work"?



editor said:


> I picked up my 16GB S4 for £420 off Amazon and bought a 64GB card for £38.
> 
> So that's £458 for the S4 + 80GB of storage. Sure seems a keener deal than £709 for the 64GB iPhone 5s.



A keen deal. Make sure you share these moneysaving tips with the most needy of the area, so they don't miss out.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 18, 2013)

PartisanDulwich said:


> I blame people



ME TOO.

People Out!!!!!!!


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Oct 18, 2013)

Nanker Phelge said:


> ME TOO.
> 
> People Out!!!!!!!


 
I vote we take off and nuke Brixton from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.


----------



## ddraig (Oct 18, 2013)

hypocrisy hunters how lovely


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 18, 2013)

ddraig said:


> hypocrisy hunters how lovely



New album by The Fall?


----------



## ddraig (Oct 18, 2013)




----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 18, 2013)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> I vote we take off and nuke Brixton from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.



When I'm faced with a big decision like this I always ask 'What would T.J Hooker do?'


----------



## T & P (Oct 18, 2013)

75 pages


----------



## editor (Oct 18, 2013)

teuchter said:


> Trite and meaningless? How much do you need to spend on a smartphone to gain "social mobility and perhaps work"?


That very much depends on what you do. If you're a freelance technology writer, for example, then you'd need to get a decent smartphone to be able to run and review the latest software, not that any of this desperate, barrel-scraping, point-scoring nonsense has the slightest bit to do with the issue of the growing inequality and social deprivation in the Coldharbour ward.

Still it's good to see where your priorities in this area lie.


----------



## gabi (Oct 18, 2013)

editor said:


> That very much depends on what you do. If you're a freelance technology writer, for example, then you'd need to get a decent smartphone to be able to run and review the latest software, not that any of this desperate, barrel-scraping, point-scoring nonsense has the slightest bit to do with the issue of the growing inequality and social deprivation in the Coldharbour ward.
> 
> Still it's good to see where your priorities in this area lie.



Or perhaps to be able to purchase laptops to design menus and websites for bars selling champagne? At pretty much the same price. And then use the same laptop to promote protests against other bars selling champers... On the basis that it was a favour for a friend? Hypocrisy writ large.

This new joint looks awful but the lounge was was most certainly the thin end of the wedge.


----------



## editor (Oct 18, 2013)

gabi said:


> Or perhaps to be able to purchase laptops to design menus and websites for bars selling champagne?


For the last time you fucking obsessed weirdo: when I designed the tiny website for the Lounge over TEN years ago, it was a cheapo cafe. It didn't serve champagne, just tea and coffee. And juice too.


----------



## teuchter (Oct 18, 2013)

editor said:


> That very much depends on what you do. If you're a freelance technology writer, for example, then you'd need to get a decent smartphone to be able to run and review the latest software, not that any of this desperate, barrel-scraping, point-scoring nonsense has the slightest bit to do with the issue of the growing inequality and social deprivation in the Coldharbour ward.
> 
> Still it's good to see where your priorities in this area lie.


Ah, so you need to buy flashy high end gadgets in order to write reviews of them so that other people can make informed decisions when they buy their flashy high end gadgets. 

It sounds a bit like making a living out of facilitating a luxury market. Not so different from what the owners of C&F do, perhaps.


----------



## gabi (Oct 18, 2013)

editor said:


> For the last time you fucking obsessed weirdo: when I designed the tiny website for the Lounge over TEN years ago, it was a cheapo cafe. It didn't serve champagne, just tea and coffee. And juice too.



Post reported.

Personal abuse. You fucking hypocritical weirdo. You designed a website advertising champagne then promoted a protest against a place on the basis that it sells champagne.


----------



## editor (Oct 18, 2013)

teuchter said:


> It sounds a bit like making a living out of facilitating a luxury market. Not so different from what the owners of C&F do, perhaps.


If - in your increasingly desperate quest to score personal points - you care to ignore the issues of a widening poverty gap, social deprivation and the process of pricing out traditional businesses and the local community, yes, It's exactly the same. 

Once again it's good to see where your priorities lie here.


----------



## editor (Oct 18, 2013)

gabi said:


> You designed a website advertising champagne


When did I do this please?


----------



## gabi (Oct 18, 2013)

Read the thread you dolt, I linked to it earlier. If you REALLY want I will post all your comments on there praising the new arrivals


----------



## editor (Oct 18, 2013)

gabi said:


> Read the thread you dolt, I linked to it earlier. If you REALLY want I will post all your comments on there praising the new arrivals


The didn't serve champagne. I have the original website in front of me right now, not that the contents of a ten year old site is even remotely relevant to anything but your increasingly obsessed mind.

Is there any chance of you discussing the actual issues under debate here now?


----------



## gabi (Oct 18, 2013)

What are the issues? New places opening up in brixton? Places other than the fucking Albert? Weirdo.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Oct 18, 2013)

All queued up for another lap then?

It seems to me there are two strands to the seemingly endless cycle on here. Firstly there's a tendency to divide people into Bad People (yuppies, hipsters, newcomers, anyone who's bought a burger at any point) and Good People (old skool Brixton). The line is never going to be clear though and it's always going to result in endless bickering and accusations of hypocrisy (sometimes quite justified IMHO). It gets people's backs up and it's not really a very useful explanation of what's happening IMO.

The second is what tends towards a pure free-market argument. People's money is their own and they can spend it on what they want (some of the people involved would deny that's their view I'm sure but that's essentially how the argument functions). The end result being to ignore (or disregard the importance of) the very real changes that have been going on. 'But Bouji's South is only slightly more expensive than Champagne and Fromage, what's the problem?'

I think it would be helpful to be able to look at people's behaviours in a way that doesn't put them into groups quite so much. So to take Honest Burger, say, is everyone in there a terrible person, waving their bundles of cash at the poor? No not really. They're just in there buying a burger at a price that isn't beyond the means of most people, some of time at least. It's not an unreasonable way to behave IMO. But is the place a gentrifying influence? Yeah, it clearly is. Is it possible for the thread to look at that without there being a fight? Dunno.

I'm not taking the Champagne Bar as example though because that is taking the piss a bit.


----------



## editor (Oct 18, 2013)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> I'm not taking the Champagne Bar as example though because that is taking the piss a bit.


Indeed. And they've just set down a big fat marker for other similar businesses to come in.


----------



## Dexter Deadwood (Oct 18, 2013)

editor said:


> Indeed. And they've just set down a big fat marker for other similar businesses to come in.



A £50,000 marker.


----------



## teuchter (Oct 18, 2013)

editor said:


> If - in your increasingly desperate quest to score personal points - you care to ignore the issues of a widening poverty gap, social deprivation and the process of pricing out traditional businesses and the local community, yes, It's exactly the same.



Instead of responding to the actual points raised, you try and distract and dismiss by making a false accusation that I am "ignoring" these issues. Arrogant, manipulative disingenuity. Business as usual.


----------



## TruXta (Oct 18, 2013)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> All queued up for another lap then?
> 
> It seems to me there are two strands to the seemingly endless cycle on here. Firstly there's a tendency to divide people into Bad People (yuppies, hipsters, newcomers, anyone who's bought a burger at any point) and Good People (old skool Brixton). The line is never going to be clear though and it's always going to result in endless bickering and accusations of hypocrisy (sometimes quite justified IMHO). It gets people's backs up and it's not really a very useful explanation of what's happening IMO.
> 
> ...


Sensible argument? Fuck that, you fucking weirdo.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Oct 18, 2013)

TruXta said:


> Sensible argument? Fuck that, you fucking weirdo.


 
Well seeing as editor and teuchter show no signs of finally sorting out an actual proper fight we need to go somewhere.


----------



## TruXta (Oct 18, 2013)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> Well seeing as editor and teuchter show no signs of finally sorting out an actual proper fight we need to go somewhere.


Who knows, maybe they have bi-annual showdowns in the back streets of Brixton, Fight Club style.


----------



## Dexter Deadwood (Oct 18, 2013)

TruXta said:


> Who knows, maybe they have bi-annual showdowns in the back streets of Brixton, Fight Club style.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Oct 18, 2013)

if only they would.


----------



## Rushy (Oct 18, 2013)

[Didn't mean to post that first bit - bloody draft saving!]



Dexter Deadwood said:


> A £50,000 marker.


Pretty sure that the premium was paid to the outgoing tenants (leaseholders). That's the way it normally works and I have been told by a friend who owns one of the shops that this is what happened here. I don't think anyone taking over an unlet unit had to pay a premium to the market but maybe fortyplus could confirm?

The leaseholders who sold to C&F are, I understand, the same leaseholders who sold Honest the lease to the adjacent site and who are also looking to sell the site opposite Honest. The premium was much lower when they sold the Honest site.

The rent being paid to the market remains unchanged. The high premium paid to the outgoing leaseholder reflects the low rent of the existing lease.

It appears to be existing longer term leaseholders who are calling the shots on the premium.


----------



## lang rabbie (Oct 18, 2013)

Rushy said:


> The leaseholders who sold to C&F are, I understand, the same leaseholders who sold Honest the lease to the adjacent site and who are also looking to sell the site opposite Honest. The premium was much lower then.
> The rent being paid to the market remains unchanged. The high premium paid to the outgoing leaseholder reflects the low rent of the existing lease.  It appears to be existing longer term leaseholders who are calling the shots on the premium.



Interesting - so we actually need to know ALL of the value of premium paid, the length of the remaining lease, AND the annual rent being paid to the market landlord before being able to work out what the annual outgoings actually are, and how exposed some of these businesses may be if Brixton Village ceases to be the next big thing.


----------



## Rushy (Oct 18, 2013)

editor said:


> For the last time you fucking obsessed weirdo: when I designed the tiny website for the Lounge over TEN years ago, it was a cheapo cafe. It didn't serve champagne, just tea and coffee. And juice too.


To be fair to gabi (and the Lounge), I never remember it being a cheapo cafe. I've no idea whether it used to sell champagne but its general offering has remained fairly consistent over the years. I don't believe anyone thought of it as a cheapo cafe when it launched. It was immediately a big step up from anything else nearby.


----------



## leanderman (Oct 18, 2013)

Rushy said:


> [Didn't mean to post that first bit - bloody draft saving!]
> 
> 
> Pretty sure that the premium was paid to the outgoing tenants (leaseholders).
> It appears to be existing longer term leaseholders who are calling the shots on the premium.



So the existing leaseholders can now realise windfalls of £50k?

Does this mean the gentrification of the market is not wholly bad for them, at least those who want/have to/need/forced to leave?


----------



## editor (Oct 18, 2013)

Rushy said:


> I don't believe anyone thought of it as a cheapo cafe when it launched. It was immediately a big step up from anything else nearby.


It was a small cafe/bar run by a local couple. It was not expensive. I think their veggie breakfasts were £3 or something.

Although it may have played some microscopic part in the changes that occurred in Brixton many years later, the fact that I did a tiny website for them over a decade ago is utterly irrelevant to the discussion about an upmarket West End champagne bar opening in Granville Arcade.


----------



## cuppa tee (Oct 18, 2013)

I just passed by ( C+F )for a gander, there was a few in punters in, didnt look particularly like decadent champagne swillers tbf
honest burgers was packed though, maybe they were having a cup of tea and watching the queue app.
Anyway, I was shocked how out of place it looked, deffo on a different level to what we've seen before.


----------



## editor (Oct 18, 2013)

cuppa tee said:


> Anyway, I was shocked how out of place it looked, deffo on a different level to what we've seen before.


It looks like something out of Hampstead or Borough Market to me.


----------



## cuppa tee (Oct 18, 2013)

editor said:


> It looks like something out of Hampstead or Borough Market to me.


Maybe even too posh for Borough Market imho although I dont hang around there if I can help it, don't know Hampstead at all so can't comment.
I could imagine it in Soho though, or mebbe somewhere like Padstow, or Salcombe in Devon which have well and truly been turned over by monied leeches.


----------



## Rushy (Oct 18, 2013)

leanderman said:


> So the existing leaseholders can now realise windfalls of £50k?
> 
> Does this mean the gentrification of the market is not wholly bad for them, at least those who want/have to/need/forced to leave?


That's a pretty big wedge to get, if true. But I think everyone is on different length leases. Some are / have been month to month - others are long term. Short ones, or ones near the end of a long term, will be worth nothing, I guess. There will be other terms restricting passing leases on. I've never seen any of the contracts.


----------



## ash (Oct 18, 2013)

cuppa tee said:


> I just passed by ( C+F )for a gander, there was a few in punters in, didnt look particularly like decadent champagne swillers tbf
> honest burgers was packed though, maybe they were having a cup of tea and watching the queue app.
> Anyway, I was shocked how out of place it looked, deffo on a different level to what we've seen before.



I sauntered past too and noticed they're selling fouix grasse (couldent be arsed to spell check!!)


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## cuppa tee (Oct 18, 2013)

ash said:


> I sauntered past too and noticed they're selling fouix grasse (couldent be arsed to spell check!!)


I can see the marketing angle now......... Brixton's most exclusive _Gras_ dealer


----------



## SarfLondoner (Oct 18, 2013)

cuppa tee said:


> I can see the marketing angle now......... Brixton's most exclusive _Gras_ dealer


----------



## editor (Oct 18, 2013)

It's just £40 for two hours tasting fois gras and champagne with the Let's Bubble! people. 


> Smooth, creamy and irresistible, the rich and delicate flavour of foie gras is a divine pairing with Champagne, with the carbonation and yeast of the fizz cutting through the fat of the liver.


----------



## leanderman (Oct 18, 2013)

editor said:


> It's just £40 for two hours tasting fois gras and champagne with the Let's Bubble! people.



prefer my animal cruelty with Sauternes


----------



## boohoo (Oct 18, 2013)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> All queued up for another lap then?
> 
> It seems to me there are two strands to the seemingly endless cycle on here. Firstly there's a tendency to divide people into Bad People (yuppies, hipsters, newcomers, anyone who's bought a burger at any point) and Good People (old skool Brixton). The line is never going to be clear though and it's always going to result in endless bickering and accusations of hypocrisy (sometimes quite justified IMHO). It gets people's backs up and it's not really a very useful explanation of what's happening IMO.
> 
> ...



Back on page 60, I suggested that if people cared that much about this change they start a campaign - not a Yuppies Out Campaign. Two people liked that and no-one else suggested that they thought that that is a way forward. Instead people have argued for the last 16 pages. 

At least for up ever reason, Yuppies Out actually did something where as you lot aren't doing much. And please, the stuff about raising awareness by having a discussion only goes so far. You have to take action!


----------



## Ms T (Oct 18, 2013)

Rushy said:


> To be fair to gabi (and the Lounge), I never remember it being a cheapo cafe. I've no idea whether it used to sell champagne but its general offering has remained fairly consistent over the years. I don't believe anyone thought of it as a cheapo cafe when it launched. It was immediately a big step up from anything else nearby.



The Lounge actually started in smaller premises further up Railton to where it is now, on the stretch between Kellett and Saltoun Rds.  It moved to its current location (the old Brixton Wholefoods) and became more of a cafe/bar, serving alcohol etc.


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## leanderman (Oct 18, 2013)

I think the delivery service would be the most practical and positive thing.

I'd love it if someone could bring me sausages from Dombey and seabass (3 for £7) from Ilias, ne Dagons.


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## BigMoaner (Oct 18, 2013)

ed, if u really wannna slow gentrification in brix, close this forum and ur brix related web pages. cos believe me they don't help. when people r deciding on an area they read all they can.


----------



## leanderman (Oct 18, 2013)

BigMoaner said:


> ed, if u really wannna slow gentrification in brix, close this forum and ur brix related web pages. cos believe me they don't help. when people r deciding on an area they read all they can.



In comparison with the East Dulwich forum, on which, last I checked, someone was asking if it was OK to feed foie gras to their baby?


----------



## BigMoaner (Oct 18, 2013)

Urban75 paints a picture of a place where loads of trendy, lively shit is going on. Take it all down and it might return once again to a largely ignored, feared suburb. Ed is turning it into the west end of the dirty saaaaarf.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 18, 2013)

leanderman said:


> In comparison with the East Dulwich forum, on which, last I checked, someone was asking if it was OK to feed foie gras to their baby?


anyone who asks that question should be shovelling corn down their child's throat - babies make a fine foie gras. and it would be an interesting backstory for them to tell when they dish it up at a dinner party.


----------



## editor (Oct 18, 2013)

BigMoaner said:


> ed, if u really wannna slow gentrification in brix, close this forum and ur brix related web pages. cos believe me they don't help. when people r deciding on an area they read all they can.


I'm pretty sure these forums aren't exactly encouraging well heeled types into the Brixton area.


----------



## kalibuzz (Oct 18, 2013)

Some of it is, I remember reading stuff about a  robbery at the library (?!) and loads of jokes about it, helicopter/police chases, shooting and stabbing incidents, and now the majority of posts is about where to eat well or where to shop next, discussing the major supermarket chains at lengths (and I don't mean them taking over old pubs but discussing queues and stock and layout etc, I mean, really?) , imo that definitely does encourage well heeled people into the area. Only needs one estate agent to ask 'what is West Norwood like' (just an example) and they'll be supplied with everything they need to know. only a miracle can save the place..


----------



## simonSW2 (Oct 18, 2013)

kalibuzz said:


> ... discussing the major supermarket chains at lengths (and I don't mean them taking over old pubs but discussing queues and stock and layout etc, I mean, really?) , imo that definitely does encourage well heeled people into the area...



^THIS

b/w

not sure it makes sense to blame the rampant gentrification that is happening right across London on a local Brixton forum.


----------



## Dexter Deadwood (Oct 18, 2013)

I thought i had read it all (and i have) but the last six posts have stunned me.


----------



## leanderman (Oct 18, 2013)

Dexter Deadwood said:


> I thought i had read it all (and i have) but the last six posts have stunned me.


why?


----------



## Dexter Deadwood (Oct 18, 2013)

leanderman said:


> why?



Closing the Brixton forum


----------



## gaijingirl (Oct 19, 2013)

leanderman said:


> In comparison with the East Dulwich forum, on which, last I checked, someone was asking if it was OK to feed foie gras to their baby?



you are fucking joking?


----------



## kalibuzz (Oct 19, 2013)

Dexter Deadwood said:


> Closing the Brixton forum


 I'd never say that, but it also doesn't need to become the Rough Guide to Brixton


----------



## Manter (Oct 19, 2013)

leanderman said:


> In comparison with the East Dulwich forum, on which, last I checked, someone was asking if it was OK to feed foie gras to their baby?


please tell me they were parodying... something?


----------



## kalibuzz (Oct 19, 2013)

simonSW2 said:


> ^THIS
> 
> b/w
> 
> not sure it makes sense to blame the rampant gentrification that is happening right across London on a local Brixton forum.


 of course not, but it's changing from a forum into a guide in some ways, but change is part of life


----------



## Dexter Deadwood (Oct 19, 2013)

kalibuzz said:


> I'd never say that, but it also doesn't need to become the Rough Guide to Brixton



I never said you did.


----------



## Dexter Deadwood (Oct 19, 2013)

BigMoaner said:


> Urban75 paints a picture of a place where loads of trendy, lively shit is going on. Take it all down and it might return once again to a largely ignored, feared suburb. Ed is turning it into the west end of the dirty saaaaarf.



This post has changed


----------



## Dexter Deadwood (Oct 19, 2013)

leanderman said:


> In comparison with the East Dulwich forum, on which, last I checked, someone was asking if it was OK to feed foie gras to their baby?



This is another recent post i have had to read several times.


----------



## snowy_again (Oct 19, 2013)

EDF is just this place in 3 years time. 

People complaining about the lack of 'social capital'
People banging on about how long they've lived here
People not understanding that people lived here before they did
People not understanding that brixton didn't suddenly have a moment of clarity the second they arrived
People complaining about the lack of state intervention to address the lack of social capital, but who dont say hello to their neighbours cos they might wear different coloured trousers
Cheap 2nd hand furniture
Overpriced ads for a one bed flat near the green
Overpriced 'vintage shabby chic' furniture 
Complaints that a 1 bed flat near the green costs £1200 pcm
Second hand home birth pools for sale at knock down prices
Complaints that the local 24 offie has been closed
Complaints that you can't get a drink after normal hours
Complaints that young people now drink in your previous venue of choice
Complaints that your local old skool venue of choice has seen a market in younger people than you and you're no longer welcome
Complaints that the local police station's been turned into a trendy youth hostel (my 2018 brixton prediction) 
A realisation that the next neighbourhood takes over in trend precedence - LJ will become the place to live, as Brixton becomes mainstream and less 'vibrant'
a moderator who doesn't promote local venues and then complain when 'outside' people come to said promoted local venues. 
Mumsnet hyperlocal posts re mooncups except you'll be judged and condemned for not fitting the 90s incomers brixton paradigm
Desperate threads about primary school catchment zones
We'll still be here joined by some non local trolls complaining about the same thing we talked about ten or 20 years ago
Unrecognised hypocrisy
Should I move to Orpington? posts
I'll have swallowed pride and moved back south across the crystal palace divide to an area I said I would not do again since 1983
Editor might eventually spend £50 on a night out, perhaps buying a round, or treating a loved one to something special, albeit cash related.
Non consensual group think will be passively aggressively unchallenged. 
offline relationships around children and migration south will develop
I'm looking forward to it, only for the skip salvage and forum pun lols. I recognise that it's not the right way forward, and things will fundamentally change for everyone, before any passive aggressive diversion responses happen about what I'm personally doing about it from certain posters. 

To think that we could keep brixton for what it was - for the reason we all moved here - without others following for what's been made, is frankly naive and stupid. Life changes. To blame individuals, be they gillet wearing twats or independent business owners more than corporate multinationals who control the main shopping sites here is diverting attention away from more prevalent issues beyond that of social exclusion through cost. This forum isn't helping - i've yet to see LVAC use this as a place for consultation or recruitment, and they've been working here for longer than this place existed. Its not yet a proper way of galvanising protest or change, and that's a lost opportunity. 

The negative long term health impact of KFC & McD's selling cheap bad food, or the beehive selling alcohol at 25p per unit in an area high on the Index of Multiple Deprivation is fundamentally bigger than a cheese shop, but is less headline grabbing. 

What *won't* happen (unlike EDF) is that local councillors & mps will log on and try to address / consult and engage on local issues that we discuss, despite the usual consequences of online fora. Cos most u75 things descend into a petty 'I've been here since 1827 and therefore holier / more indignant / more disadvantaged than thou, sub socialist worker indignation guff' process with site controllers managing conversations. This site in 12 months has taken debate into conflict. We are all to blame for that. Except Greebo, who likes everything. 

Added amusing fish / poultry puns will lighten the mood; and occasional local history will remind us of what we didn't continue/ whats been lost.

Being regularly, or almost constantly online, posters here don't represent the 70% of average members of the coldharbour ward and surrounding areas simply by having internet access and don't represent of the quite large local older and/or disabled population of whom approx  75% dont have internet access. I won't even start with BME digital inclusion stats. Yet we think we're a community, with a voice and opinion. It's frankly a bunch of m/c people - anyone else is probably too busy dealing with the benefits system changes, or working, to be a regular poster on here. 

Anecdote will still become perceived fact. Quoted and hyperbolised and then hyperlinked to a syndicate social media platform for more dissemination by more m/c web savvy individuals. 

Oh and anyone younger will be HIPSTER SCUM and therefore unwelcome. We will shop. We will be more divided. 

Fat White Family will be dropped after their unsuccessful second album. One of them will shaft the others and will spend their royalties on champagne, white, and sex industry workers. Self awareness will never happen to them. 

People will continue to eat cheese and drink fizzy wine. 

Basically, we're fucked.


----------



## snowy_again (Oct 19, 2013)

But at least once every six months we could save up to eat some force fed goose liver. 

I'm more pissed off about that being sold locally than the transient short lived, gillet wearing, band wagon jumping champagne-ites.


----------



## nagapie (Oct 19, 2013)

Yeah, let's shut down the internet to save Brixton. That sounds like it will work. I'm also pretty pretty sure there are no other factors at play like housing, welfare and business. No siree.


----------



## *groundhogday (Oct 19, 2013)

" Although it may have played some microscopic part ( ....BUTTERFLY FLAPS WINGS..... ) in the changes that occurred in Brixton many years later, the fact that I did a tiny website for them over a decade ago is utterly irrelevant to the discussion about an upmarket West End champagne bar opening in Granville Arcade." 

dear editor 

why so testy 
engels is dead ...stalin proved the central control function doesn t work 

if you want to get your teeth into real demographic change look up "ferrier estate" or "kidbrooke village" !
the local council sold the whole estate ..hundreds of acres to berkeley homes for lots of money 
re-locating the families " somewhere up north " with some cash.

or you could just look up rwanda .....to get some exorcising going


----------



## teuchter (Oct 19, 2013)

snowy_again said:


> People complaining about the lack of 'social capital'
> People banging on about how long they've lived here
> People not understanding that people lived here before they did
> People not understanding that brixton didn't suddenly have a moment of clarity the second they arrived
> ...




some posters will indulge in u75 self-analysis lists/posts, and I will enjoy reading them


----------



## qwertyjjj (Oct 19, 2013)

snowy_again said:


> Life changes. To blame individuals, be they *gillet* wearing twats or independent business owners more than corporate multinationals who control the main shopping sites here is diverting


what's wrong with body warmers?


----------



## Hollis (Oct 19, 2013)

editor said:


> It's just £40 for two hours tasting fois gras and champagne with the Let's Bubble! people.


 
£40 for a couple hours entertainment isn't really excessive for a lot of folk - people spend that on football or down the bookies. Horses for courses etc..


----------



## leanderman (Oct 19, 2013)

Emerged this morning to be hailed by neighbour who said: 'Have you been to C+F yet? It's amazing!'


----------



## sparkybird (Oct 19, 2013)

Went to eat at Cornercopia last night -my fave place in Granville Arcade - not been for far too long....! Food was amazing.

Out of intereest, strolled past C+F on way out - place was busy - not everyone in there looked 'posh'. Mr Sparkybird's eye was caught by some nice looking French sausages - next thing I know he has a brown paper bag in his hand! He had some for breakfast and pronounced them 'Delicious'!


----------



## teuchter (Oct 19, 2013)

Hollis said:


> £40 for a couple hours entertainment isn't really excessive for a lot of folk - people spend that on football or down the bookies. Horses for courses etc..



If you were to forgo your weekly foie gras tasting session for only 12 weeks in a row you could buy a new smartphone.


----------



## teuchter (Oct 19, 2013)

leanderman said:


> Emerged this morning to be hailed by neighbour who said: 'Have you been to C+F yet? It's amazing!'


Assuming your username refers to the street you live on, this is unsurprising.


----------



## editor (Oct 19, 2013)

Hollis said:


> £40 for a couple hours entertainment isn't really excessive for a lot of folk - people spend that on football or down the bookies. Horses for courses etc..


Yes, that's right, but don't go assuming everyone has that amount of waste on two hour foie grass tasting sessions. For many people living right opposite the champagne bar, it's a week's food budget.


----------



## fogbat (Oct 19, 2013)

gaijingirl said:


> you are fucking joking?


I know, right? Waste of good foie gras.


----------



## stuff_it (Oct 19, 2013)

As mentioned in the Boomtown thread, we should start up a café for fessies called "sorted for cheese and fizz" and sell anything fizzy with a cheese string swizzle stick. Then we can all go for free.


----------



## leanderman (Oct 19, 2013)

teuchter said:


> Assuming your username refers to the street you live on, this is unsurprising.



Like almost all of my immediate neighbours, he lives in an L&Q property. But, I admit, he is 'posh'


----------



## Rushy (Oct 19, 2013)

stuff_it said:


> As mentioned in the Boomtown thread, we should start up a café for fessies called "sorted for cheese and fizz" and sell anything fizzy with a cheese string swizzle stick. Then we can all go for free.


I have no idea what a fessie is but that name is genius.
Makes me want to open a shop just so that I can call it that.


----------



## teuchter (Oct 19, 2013)

editor said:


> Yes, that's right, but don't go assuming everyone has that amount of waste on two hour foie grass tasting sessions.



People really are in danger of just assuming this. So it's good that you make this point every 10 posts or so.


----------



## editor (Oct 19, 2013)

teuchter said:


> People really are in danger of just assuming this. So it's good that you make this point every 10 posts or so.


Thanks for your usual immensely valuable contribution to the debate.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 19, 2013)

editor said:


> Yes, that's right, but don't go assuming everyone has that amount of waste on two hour foie grass tasting sessions. For many people living right opposite the champagne bar, it's a week's food budget.



hollis didn't assume that.


----------



## editor (Oct 19, 2013)

Oh dear. I'm off to the football.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 19, 2013)

editor said:
			
		

> Oh dear. I'm off to the football.



Prawn sandwich brigade ^


----------



## BigMoaner (Oct 19, 2013)

i'm at millwall and just shouted, "Hey guys, lets bubble"


----------



## Ms T (Oct 19, 2013)

I am having cheese and fizz with a mate of this parish tonight as we watch Strictly Come Dancing.  Proper Brixton.


----------



## editor (Oct 19, 2013)

Badgers said:


> Prawn sandwich brigade ^


Beer brigade at Hamlet.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 19, 2013)

snowy_again said:


> Being regularly, or almost constantly online, posters here don't represent the 70% of average members of the coldharbour ward and surrounding areas simply by having internet access and don't represent of the quite large local older and/or disabled population of whom approx  75% dont have internet access. I won't even start with BME digital inclusion stats. Yet we think we're a community, with a voice and opinion. It's frankly a bunch of m/c people - anyone else is probably too busy dealing with the benefits system changes, or working, to be a regular poster on here.



I mix with all the kinds of people quoted.  I am busy dealing everyday issues. I am also a regular poster here.


----------



## *groundhogday (Oct 19, 2013)

People Out!!!!!!![/quote]

near mr phelge

Was Aftermath to be the best record you ever made .... I believe so


----------



## boohoo (Oct 19, 2013)

editor said:


> Yes, that's right, but don't go assuming everyone has that amount of waste on two hour foie grass tasting sessions. For many people living right opposite the champagne bar, it's a week's food budget.



£40 for a week food budget is actually a lot if you are signing on and paying all your household bills.


----------



## Onket (Oct 19, 2013)

Can a mod please amend the title of the thread?


----------



## Agent Sparrow (Oct 20, 2013)

This thread is the thread that keeps on giving! (Or at least keeps on going)

Wondering if it remain active till Xmas? Cheese is an important part of Xmas, after all...


----------



## Yelkcub (Oct 20, 2013)

Onket said:


> Can a mod please amend the title of the thread?


To what?


----------



## Badgers (Oct 20, 2013)

Do they sell lager?


----------



## SarfLondoner (Oct 20, 2013)

Do they sell cheese and onion crisps ?


----------



## T & P (Oct 20, 2013)

Agent Sparrow said:


> This thread is the thread that keeps on giving! (Or at least keeps on going)
> 
> Wondering if it remain active till Xmas? Cheese is an important part of Xmas, after all...


Shame champagne isn't... 

Fuck, I think the Xmas edition of Offline should be held at C&F. Everybody loves a bit of bubbly at Crimbo...


----------



## treelover (Oct 20, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I don't blame them. I have friends who've sold up after 40 years in Brixton, bought a house on the south coast and pocketed more than half a million. But they did not sell to people like them - people like them (they're retired, he was a printer, she worked in admin jobs) are nowhere near able to buy even a flat in Brixton now, let alone a house. They weren't forced out (although they were pretty skint - Maxwell stole most of his pension), but the choices were stark: stay in Brixton and live carefully, or move out and have more money than they know what to do with. It's their children who are forced out.


 

That's incredible, profits like that, something is very very wrong with this Turbo capitalism, in many ways the restructuring of housing isn't much different than the old communist era where the elites(now the oligarchs, bank bosses, etc) lived in the best housing followed by the apparatchiks(finance workers, media, etc), while whole groups of families shared one flat.


----------



## Rushy (Oct 20, 2013)

treelover said:


> That's incredible, profits like that, something is very very wrong with this Turbo capitalism, in many ways the restructuring of housing isn't much different than the old communist era where the elites(now the oligarchs, bank bosses, etc) lived in the best housing followed by the apparatchiks(finance workers, media, etc), while whole families shared one flat.


That even happens in some of the housing co-ops. Set up on a principle of distribution according to need but empty nesters (sometimes those who set the thing up) don't want to downgrade when the time comes. You end up with big houses occupied by a couple at a very low rent and young families in a 1 bed with no garden.


----------



## treelover (Oct 20, 2013)

leanderman said:


> This is so true. And so sad.
> 
> Renting was, once, viable in central-ish London. No more.
> 
> And, in Liverpool, houses are trading for £1.


 
only in some areas, plenty of very expensive housing elsewhere.


----------



## treelover (Oct 20, 2013)

Gramsci said:


> A bit harsh I think. What I have heard is that artists are now leaving London or not coming here. Have heard from an artist friend that there is arts scene developing outside London up North. Where it is still possible to get cheapish accommodation.


 

certainly is here, biggest art community outside London, and yes we are starting to posh resaurants nearby to the studios,*


still not sure why this happens


----------



## sleaterkinney (Oct 20, 2013)

It's packed today. Do they do other food besides cheese?.


----------



## treelover (Oct 20, 2013)

teuchter said:


> Trite and meaningless? How much do you need to spend on a smartphone to gain "social mobility and perhaps work"?
> 
> 
> 
> A keen deal. Make sure you share these moneysaving tips with the most needy of the area, so they don't miss out.


 
Aren't these the tools of his trade?, cheap shot.


----------



## teuchter (Oct 20, 2013)

treelover said:


> Aren't these the tools of his trade?, cheap shot.


Just like fancy wine, cheese and foie gras are the tools of C&F's trade. It's ok for editor to make a living facilitating wealthy peoples' expensive consumer choices, but apparently not the owners of that shop.


----------



## Ms T (Oct 20, 2013)

boohoo said:


> £40 for a week food budget is actually a lot if you are signing on and paying all your household bills.


 
It's about half that per person for the lowest income group, according to The Skint Foodie.

http://www.theskintfoodie.com/spending.html

He also devotes a whole section of his blog to cheese!


----------



## Hollis (Oct 20, 2013)

Ms T said:


> He also devotes a whole section of his blog to cheese!


 
Well, I hope he limits it to a discussion of cheddar.


----------



## editor (Oct 20, 2013)

teuchter said:


> Just like fancy wine, cheese and foie gras are the tools of C&F's trade. It's ok for editor to make a living facilitating wealthy peoples' expensive consumer choices, but apparently not the owners of that shop.


Do you actually _believe _the barking nonsense you write?

In case you missed it, I don't sell anything to wealthy people. In fact, the only thing I sell is Brixton Buzz Beer, ALL the profits of which go to a local soup kitchen.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 20, 2013)

teuchter said:


> Just like fancy wine, cheese and foie gras are the tools of C&F's trade. It's ok for editor to make a living facilitating wealthy peoples' expensive consumer choices, but apparently not the owners of that shop.


That's a pretty desperate attempt at an analogy tbh.


----------



## teuchter (Oct 20, 2013)

editor said:


> Do you actually _believe _the barking nonsense you write?
> 
> In case you missed it, I don't sell anything to wealthy people. In fact, the only thing I sell is Brixton Buzz Beer, ALL the profits of which go to a local soup kitchen.


I thought you claimed that the reason you need your £458 smartphone is so that you can review software for similar devices in your job as a freelance technology writer. Did I misunderstand?


----------



## editor (Oct 20, 2013)

teuchter said:


> I thought you claimed that the reason you need your £458 smartphone is so that you can review software for similar devices in your job as a freelance technology writer. Did I misunderstand?


What I do for work and what phone I own is totally irrelevant to a discussion about the social and economic ramifications of the opening of a champagne bar in the poorest ward in Lambeth - and that is the topic of this thread. If you're that fascinated by my choice of smartphone, feel free to ask me in the tech forum.

Your continuing obsession with point scoring and posting up a stream of ad hominems does nothing but disrupt threads and is to the detriment of the forum overall, so I'd like you to stop now please.


----------



## simonSW2 (Oct 20, 2013)

teuchter said:


> I thought you claimed that the reason you need your £458 smartphone is so that you can review software for similar devices in your job as a freelance technology writer. Did I misunderstand?



This is a yawn-inducing pursuit of a non-issue. Boring thread clutter.


----------



## Onket (Oct 20, 2013)

simonSW2 said:


> This is a yawn-inducing pursuit of a non-issue. Boring thread clutter.



And have you read the rest of the thread?!


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 20, 2013)

Onket said:


> And have you read the rest of the thread?!


This is a yawn-inducing pursuit of a yawn-inducing pursuit of a non-issue.


----------



## Onket (Oct 20, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> This is a yawn-inducing pursuit of a yawn-inducing pursuit of a non-issue.



And have you read the rest of the thread?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 20, 2013)

Actually, on balance, it's another attempt to distort the arguments involved. We saw this previously with the bizarre "but the Albert serves champagne" thing - that was attempting to redefine the argument against C&F as some sort of "anti-champagne" one. (As well as being weirdly personal - "_your pub_ serves champagne".) Now it's trying to redefine the opposition as one about _spending money on anything at all_. You bought a thing how dare you complain about people buying things because that is what you are talking about here despite everything else you say.

I bought some shoes the other day. I'm such a hypocrite.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 20, 2013)

Onket said:


> And have you read the rest of the thread?


You're such a _character_.


----------



## Onket (Oct 20, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> You're such a character.



Right.


----------



## Hollis (Oct 20, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Actually, on balance, it's another attempt to distort the arguments involved. We saw this previously with the bizarre "but the Albert serves champagne" thing - that was attempting to redefine the argument against C&F as some sort of "anti-champagne" one. (As well as being weirdly personal - "_your pub_ serves champagne".) Now it's trying to redefine the opposition as one about _spending money on anything at all_. You bought a thing how dare you complain about people buying things because that is what you are talking about here despite everything else you say.
> 
> I bought some shoes the other day. I'm such a hypocrite.


 
No - you've misunderstood.

There is an interesting point about 'inclusivity' and 'exclusivity', which isn't just economic.  But the Editors argument about _spending money on things I don't like - _which is the way its been developed, is swiftly dealt with.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 20, 2013)

Hollis said:


> the Editors argument about _spending money on things I don't like - _


Sorry, I must have missed that one. Can't seem to see it now either.


----------



## Hollis (Oct 20, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Sorry, I must have missed that one. Can't seem to see it now either.


 
Really!  Look harder then.


----------



## marty21 (Oct 20, 2013)

how can anyone have the nerve to post on this thread  from their pricy mobiles, laptops, tablets and PCs is beyond me.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 20, 2013)

Hollis said:


> Really!  Look harder then.


Don't leave me in suspense now - I must be completely blind to have missed a bit where he was arguing about spending money on things he doesn't like. (Or, for that matter, about spending money on things _you_ don't like, which would be a bit odd.) I willingly concede that I'm not capable of finding it on my own.


----------



## Onket (Oct 20, 2013)

Hollis said:


> Really!  Look harder then.



I can only presume it was an attempt at humour.


----------



## Onket (Oct 20, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Don't leave me in suspense now - I must be completely blind to have missed a bit where he was arguing about spending money on things he doesn't like. (Or, for that matter, about spending money on things you don't like, which would be a bit odd.) I willingly concede that I'm not capable of finding it on my own.



Yep. Definitely an attempt at humour.


----------



## Yelkcub (Oct 20, 2013)

Despite all the entrenched long term adversaries on this thread, there is a point to be made that if you're using expensive non-essential electronic goods, your view on Cha & Fro isn't greatly less subjective than 'theirs'.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 20, 2013)

Yelkcub said:


> Despite all the entrenched long term adversaries on this thread, there is a point to be made that if you're using expensive non-essential electronic goods, your view on Cha & Fro isn't greatly less subjective than 'theirs'.


Is there? I'd be interested in seeing that point.


----------



## Yelkcub (Oct 20, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Is there? I'd be interested in seeing that point.



That was it. Complaining about people choosing to spend their money on something frivolous while doing the same doesn't make any sense.


----------



## editor (Oct 20, 2013)

Yelkcub said:


> Despite all the entrenched long term adversaries on this thread, there is a point to be made that if you're using expensive non-essential electronic goods, your view on Cha & Fro isn't greatly less subjective than 'theirs'.


Should everyone list what equipment they're currently using here, just to make sure that this _vital_ issue isn't overlooked in any way? Maybe they could fill in a form to explain what they use their electronic goods for so people could vote on whether their use is deemed essential or non-essential?

Or perhaps we could engage our energies in discussing the far more important issue of the socio-economic impact of a champagne bar opening up in the poorest ward in Lambeth rather than pursuing gloriously irrelevant ad hominem attacks and nit picking debates on what make of phone someone is using?

Just an idea, like.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 20, 2013)

Yelkcub said:


> That was it. Complaining about people choosing to spend their money on something frivolous while doing the same doesn't make any sense.


So you would characterise everything that people have said about C&F as "complaining about people choosing to spend their money on something frivolous"?

Cheers, because that's exactly what I said earlier.

eta: here's that, for the lazy:


> Actually, on balance, it's another attempt to distort the arguments involved. We saw this previously with the bizarre "but the Albert serves champagne" thing - that was attempting to redefine the argument against C&F as some sort of "anti-champagne" one. (As well as being weirdly personal - "your pub serves champagne".) Now it's trying to redefine the opposition as one about spending money on anything at all. You bought a thing how dare you complain about people buying things because that is what you are talking about here despite everything else you say.
> 
> I bought some shoes the other day. I'm such a hypocrite.


----------



## editor (Oct 20, 2013)

Yelkcub said:


> That was it. Complaining about people choosing to spend their money on something frivolous while doing the same doesn't make any sense.


Who's been "complaining" about what people chose to spend their money on? Where?


----------



## Yelkcub (Oct 20, 2013)

editor said:


> Should everyone list what equipment they're currently using here, just to make sure that this _vital_ issue isn't overlooked in any way? Maybe they could fill in a form to explain what they use their electronic goods for so people could vote on whether their use is deemed essential or non-essential?
> 
> Or perhaps we could engage our energies in discussing the far more important issue of the socio-economic impact of a champagne bar opening up in the poorest ward in Lambeth rather than pursuing glorious irrelevant ad hominem attacks?



It's a bar, where's there's lots already. I think the problem this thread has with it is what champagne symbolises, isn't it? Do Apple branded goods or expensive cameras symbolise anything different? Really?


----------



## editor (Oct 20, 2013)

Yelkcub said:


> It's a bar, where's there's lots already. I think the problem this thread has with it is what champagne symbolises, isn't it? Do Apple branded goods or expensive cameras symbolise anything different? Really?


What has this grand red herring has to do with the socio-economic impact of a champagne bar opening up in the poorest ward in Lambeth?

It's just a pointless, cheap tactic to make the thread personal because I happen to have a (moderately) expensive camera - which I use for work - and a smartphone - which I use for work. 

So what have any of those *personal* choices have to do with, you know, the actual issues that matter here?


----------



## Ms T (Oct 20, 2013)

Today's Torygraph has an article about "London's New Hot Spots".  Brixton, not surprisingly is one of them. There's a glaring factual error in the piece. 

 "The attraction is the big buzz and the 15-minute Tube journey on the Northern Line into London's West End.  City workers now rub shoulders with avocado sellers and trombonists and he amazing Brixton market has become a mecca for food-lovers.  The latest offering there is tellingly called Champagne and Fromage.  Incomers can swim in the Art Deco outdoor lido before heading to their desks for the day.  In fact,  life here is so good that people are now moaning about the loss of the old days".

Who can they be talking about?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 20, 2013)

The Telegraph is boosting it as being a shining example of cultural invasion. The Telegraph gets it.

But it's actually all about champagne and whether the Albert sells it oh yeah. Or whether editor has a posh phone.


----------



## Yelkcub (Oct 20, 2013)

editor said:


> What has this grand red herring has to do with the socio-economic impact of a champagne bar opening up in the poorest ward in Lambeth?
> 
> It's just a pointless, cheap tactic to make the thread personal because I happen to have a (moderately) expensive camera - which I use for work - and a smartphone - which I use for work.
> 
> So what have any of those *personal* choices have to do with, you know, the actual issues that matter here?



It wasn't personal at all, which I was said 'despite the adversaries'. I'm not singling you out at all. U75 is techie, camera-y. People here complaining about symbols of conspicuous wealth, seem to forget that.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 20, 2013)

why take the tube when there are taxis?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 20, 2013)

Yelkcub said:


> It wasn't personal at all, which I was said 'despite the adversaries'. I'm not singling you out at all. U75 is techie, camera-y. People here complaining about symbols of conspicuous wealth, seem to forget that.


Thanks for reinforcing my point. No money in it I'm afraid.


----------



## Yelkcub (Oct 20, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Thanks for reinforcing my point. No money in it I'm afraid.



No money in what?


----------



## Thimble Queen (Oct 20, 2013)

i'm using a second hand laptop that i was given by a friend. I'm more brixton that ALL of you.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 20, 2013)

Yelkcub said:


> No money in what?


in reinforcing my point


----------



## editor (Oct 20, 2013)

Yelkcub said:


> It wasn't personal at all, which I was said 'despite the adversaries'. I'm not singling you out at all. U75 is techie, camera-y. People here complaining about symbols of conspicuous wealth, seem to forget that.


And you think that this argument - that some people may own a decent camera or laptop for work - is directly relevant and pertinent to the issue of an upmarket champagne bar opening in a traditional market in a socially deprived area, yes?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 20, 2013)

Yelkcub said:


> It wasn't personal at all, which I was said 'despite the adversaries'. I'm not singling you out at all. U75 is techie, camera-y. People here complaining about symbols of conspicuous wealth, seem to forget that.


Do you even know what this thread is about?


----------



## Yelkcub (Oct 20, 2013)

editor said:


> And you think that this argument - that some people may own a decent camera or laptop for work - is directly relevant and pertinent to the issue of an upmarket champagne bar opening in a traditional market in a socially deprived area, yes?



I think you're choosing to frame those things as different, when they aren't, yes. One is an acceptable extravagance to you, one isn't.


----------



## Yelkcub (Oct 20, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Do you even know what this thread is about?



I think I do, but free to educate me.


----------



## editor (Oct 20, 2013)

Yelkcub said:


> I think you're choosing to frame those things as different, when they aren't, yes. One is an acceptable extravagance to you, one isn't.


Even if that was true - which it's not - it still remains totally irrelevant to, you know, _the actual important issues here, _unless your main interest is finding a way of turning the debate into a series of personal issues and attacks.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 20, 2013)

Yelkcub said:


> I think I do, but free to educate me.


It's nothing to do with that and there's no indication to think that it would be.

Why would you think that?


----------



## uk benzo (Oct 20, 2013)

This has become the most boring thread. Ever.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Oct 20, 2013)

editor said:


> Even if that was true - which it's not - it still remains totally irrelevant to, you know, _the actual important issues here, _unless your main interest is finding a way of turning the debate into a series of personal issues and attacks.



Yeah but remember that this guy takes it personally when his neighbour has a fag in the neighbours own garden...


----------



## Yelkcub (Oct 20, 2013)

editor said:


> Even if that was true - which it's not - it still remains totally irrelevant to, you know, _the actual important issues here, _unless your main interest is finding a way of turning the debate into a series of personal issues and attacks.



I'm really not doing that. Can you see that if you leave aside the assumption someone is attacking you personally, which I understand because people do, that I genuinely see things the way I'm saying?


----------



## Yelkcub (Oct 20, 2013)

MrsDarlingsKiss said:


> Yeah but remember that this guy takes it personally when his neighbour has a fag in the neighbours own garden...



The bastard!


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 20, 2013)

Side note: my impression is that a few years ago places wouldn't have promoted fois gras so openly. I'm seeing it more now, mentioned on tv, on menus. Am I just noticing it more or is it appearing more? Pretty horrible to see it so much.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Oct 20, 2013)

Yelkcub said:


> The bastard!



did he own up to vomming in your cupboard yet?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 20, 2013)

Yelkcub said:


> I'm really not doing that. Can you see that if you leave aside the assumption someone is attacking you personally, which I understand because people do, that I genuinely see things the way I'm saying?


_Nobody_ who has said anything opposing the bar has said what you claim they are complaining about.


----------



## Yelkcub (Oct 20, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> _Nobody_ who has said anything opposing the bar has said what you claim they are complaining about.



C'mon. The thread judges the place and the people on what you imagine champagne to symbolise. It's not that different from laptops, cameras and smartphones, which are all acceptable to people here.


----------



## Yelkcub (Oct 20, 2013)

MrsDarlingsKiss said:


> did he own up to vomming in your cupboard yet?



Not yet, but I've set up a trip wire to catch him out


----------



## editor (Oct 20, 2013)

Yelkcub said:


> C'mon. The thread judges the place and the people on what you imagine champagne to symbolise. It's not that different from laptops, cameras and smartphones, which are all acceptable to people here.


What does a laptop symbolise, exactly?


----------



## Yelkcub (Oct 20, 2013)

editor said:


> What does a laptop symbolise, exactly?


What does champagne symbolise?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 20, 2013)

Yelkcub said:


> C'mon. The thread judges the place and the people on what you imagine champagne to symbolise. It's not that different from laptops, cameras and smartphones, which are all acceptable to people here.


"The thread judges the place and the people on what you imagine champagne to symbolise" - well no, the thread doesn't do anything.

Whatever, "It's not that different from laptops, cameras and smartphones" is absolutely not the case.

You've not read it have you? That's okay, it's nearly 80 pages long. But shut up about it, ta.


----------



## leanderman (Oct 20, 2013)

editor said:


> What has this grand red herring has to do with the socio-economic impact of a champagne bar opening up in the poorest ward in Lambeth?



I doubt C+F, or Brixton Village for that matter, has much of a socio-economic impact compared with the very much bigger picture of London's housing crisis.

Rents, for example, would have gone up anyway. It's not clear to me that housing costs have accelerated any more here than in East Dulwich, Balham or Tooting.

Besides C+F is here basically because Claphamites have been priced out of Clapham.


----------



## Yelkcub (Oct 20, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> "The thread judges the place and the people on what you imagine champagne to symbolise" - well no, the thread doesn't do anything.
> 
> Whatever, "It's not that different from laptops, cameras and smartphones" is absolutely not the case.
> 
> You've not read it have you? That's okay, it's nearly 80 pages long. But shut up about it, ta.



Oh, you decided that your opinion is fact? And if I don't agree, it's because I haven't read the thread.

If you say so.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 20, 2013)

Phew, thank heavens for that.


----------



## editor (Oct 20, 2013)

Yelkcub said:


> What does champagne symbolise?


If you're just going to play silly buggers and avoid answering questions by posting up silly questions, I'll leave you to it.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 20, 2013)

I think a lot of the C&F crowd were in the Albert tonight


----------



## Yelkcub (Oct 20, 2013)

editor said:


> If you're just going to play silly buggers and avoid answering questions by posting up silly questions, I'll leave you to it.





editor said:


> What does a laptop symbolise, exactly?


----------



## editor (Oct 20, 2013)

leanderman said:


> I doubt C+F, or Brixton Village for that matter, has much of a socio-economic impact compared with the very much bigger picture of London's housing crisis.
> 
> Rents, for example, would have gone up anyway. It's not clear to me that housing costs have accelerated any more here than in East Dulwich, Balham or Tooting.
> 
> Besides C+F is here basically because Claphamites have been priced out of Clapham.


I think it's going to have a noticeable impact within the market space and the locality, even if it is only acting as an accelerant for the already-occurring process of fast-rising rents and the pricing out of traditional businesses. I expect more expensive, upmarket businesses to follow them into the market.

Great news for some, no doubt, but it depresses the hell out of me, what with there being a soup kitchen just around the corner.


----------



## editor (Oct 20, 2013)

Yelkcub said:


> -


You're the one making this ridiculous comparison, so why don't you at least try to justify it?


----------



## Badgers (Oct 20, 2013)

I would rather Nandos burnt down than ChampFro. There, I have said it.


----------



## editor (Oct 20, 2013)

Badgers said:


> I think a lot of the C&F crowd were in the Albert tonight


Some posh bloke started giving the staff a hard time last night because he was unable to get a drink when he arrived at the bar as last orders were called. Happily his girlfriend put him straight, commenting, "Stop being such a fucking arsehole."


----------



## editor (Oct 20, 2013)

Badgers said:


> I would rather Nandos burnt down than ChampFro. There, I have said it.


My fantasy conflagration* would take in ChampFro, then the Wine Parlour and Tique Booty. Nandos is so far out of town for me, I don't even notice it.

(*this is of course meant in a jokey manner and at no point would I want a business - no matter how repellent - to be burnt down)


----------



## Winot (Oct 20, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Actually, on balance, it's another attempt to distort the arguments involved. We saw this previously with the bizarre "but the Albert serves champagne" thing - that was attempting to redefine the argument against C&F as some sort of "anti-champagne" one. (As well as being weirdly personal - "_your pub_ serves champagne".) Now it's trying to redefine the opposition as one about _spending money on anything at all_. You bought a thing how dare you complain about people buying things because that is what you are talking about here despite everything else you say.
> 
> I bought some shoes the other day. I'm such a hypocrite.



I have been thinking about the gulf between the two sides of this debate and why it has arisen.  I suspect in reality that both sides are pretty au fait with issues of inequality/poverty and share the same concerns about them. 

I think on one side we are looking for intellectual consistency - what is it *exactly* that makes C+F the tipping point? That leads to arguments about price of champagne in other venues, whether there were earlier tipping points etc. 

On the anti-side however, it's more of an emotional reaction - C+F just *feels* wrong - that this time things have gone too far. And if it feels that wrong, then the arguments about consistency from the other side feel like the other side are missing the point. Whereas actually we are just looking at it from a different perspective.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 20, 2013)

Badgers said:


> I would rather Nandos burnt down than ChampFro. There, I have said it.



i'd forgotten about the nandos haters. I quite like nandos.


----------



## Belushi (Oct 20, 2013)

I'm a bit baffled by Nando's; it's not complete crap but it's a bit meh; lots of people seem to love it though.


----------



## uk benzo (Oct 20, 2013)

Badgers said:


> I would rather Nandos burnt down than ChampFro. There, I have said it.



My 3 year old would punch you in the nuts if he heard you say that. He loves it in there. It's the only time he gets excited about chicken.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 20, 2013)

uk benzo said:
			
		

> My 3 year old would punch you in the nuts if he heard you say that. He loves it in there. It's the only time he gets excited about chicken.



He needs correction


----------



## Manter (Oct 20, 2013)

Badgers said:


> I would rather Nandos burnt down than ChampFro. There, I have said it.


I like Nandos.


----------



## Yelkcub (Oct 20, 2013)

editor said:


> You're the one making this ridiculous comparison, so why don't you at least try to justify it?



They don't symbolise anything different to me. But that's ridiculous to you, because it's not your opinion.


----------



## marty21 (Oct 20, 2013)

Belushi said:


> I'm a bit baffled by Nando's; it's not complete crap but it's a bit meh; lots of people seem to love it though.


there was an almighty fuss when Nandos planned to open in Stoke Newington, a lot of people on FB hated the idea of it - C&F would not prompt such protest


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 20, 2013)

Winot said:


> I have been thinking about the gulf between the two sides of this debate and why it has arisen.  I suspect in reality that both sides are pretty au fait with issues of inequality/poverty and share the same concerns about them.


I don't agree with that I'm afraid. There's an absurd level of stereotyping of opposition to this - you hate champagne! (and the Albert serves champagne!) YOU ARE BULLIES LEAVE C&F ALONE you have phones !!!!11±!!!!! what's wrong with cheese?????? - it's just a joke.

I don't think "both sides" are au fait at all - I think there are a bunch of people who want to pretend that it's all some weird imaginary class war hate campaign that has nothing to do with them or anything that's going on ever, and they will take any opportunity to say it's the middle class, it's the unemployed, it's not Brixton people, it's Brixton people who don't realise things have changed, Brixton people have sold the property for profit and none of them are being kicked out, etc etc

The position has been made very, very clear and if you're claiming it's otherwise (e.g. Yelkcub) you're the enemy. Work it out if you don't want to be.


----------



## Yelkcub (Oct 20, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> The position has been made very, very clear and if you're claiming it's otherwise (e.g. Yelkcub) you're the enemy. Work it out if you don't want to be.



I don't mind being the enemy. It makes no difference to my life. But, there's  some first class hypocrisy that so obvious to someone as uninvolved as me, it's impossible to comment without pointing it out.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 20, 2013)

Yelkcub said:


> I don't mind being the enemy. It makes no difference to my life. But, there's  some first class hypocrisy that so obvious to someone as uninvolved as me, it's impossible to comment without pointing it out.


point it out then ffs


----------



## Hollis (Oct 20, 2013)

Winot said:


> I have been thinking about the gulf between the two sides of this debate and why it has arisen.  I suspect in reality that both sides are pretty au fait with issues of inequality/poverty and share the same concerns about them.
> 
> I think on one side we are looking for intellectual consistency - what is it *exactly* that makes C+F the tipping point? That leads to arguments about price of champagne in other venues, whether there were earlier tipping points etc.
> 
> On the anti-side however, it's more of an emotional reaction - C+F just *feels* wrong - that this time things have gone too far. And if it feels that wrong, then the arguments about consistency from the other side feel like the other side are missing the point. Whereas actually we are just looking at it from a different perspective.


 
I think its partly when people using the 'emotional reaction' start using the price argument that they get unstuck..£40 for a champagne tasting session may seem a waste of money to you.. ,  but actually argue on your own terms.

Though this also supports Yelkclub's line - because if we're talking about what's 'inclusive or not', "cultural invasion",  then inequality and exclusion in the form of latest brand/version mobiles does work in a similar way really.


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## Badgers (Oct 20, 2013)

Did anyway answer my question about the music policy?


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## littlebabyjesus (Oct 20, 2013)

Ironically, as camden high street shows, rising rents lead to more mobile phone shops.


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## marty21 (Oct 20, 2013)

Badgers said:


> Did anyway answer my question about the music policy?


----------



## Manter (Oct 20, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Ironically, as camden high street shows, rising rents lead to more mobile phone shops.


Brixton road proves that one too!


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## marty21 (Oct 20, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Ironically, as camden high street shows, rising rents lead to more mobile phone shops.


that is a dull high street


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## littlebabyjesus (Oct 20, 2013)

marty21 said:


> that is a dull high street



yep  with extortionate rents.


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## editor (Oct 20, 2013)

Hollis said:


> I think its partly when people using the 'emotional reaction' start using the price argument that they get unstuck..£40 for a champagne tasting session may seem a waste of money to you.. ,  but actually argue on your own terms.


*can't be arsed.


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## editor (Oct 20, 2013)

marty21 said:


> that is a dull high street


Brixton's future, I fear.


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## Ms T (Oct 21, 2013)

Brixton High Street is already dull, like most other High Streets. It depressed the hell out of me that all three of the Foot Locker units became mobile phone shops, plus half of Woolies, plus a previously family business (Websters).  Streatham has a much more diverse High Street, tatty though it is.


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## simonSW2 (Oct 21, 2013)

Yelkcub said:


> C'mon. The thread judges the place and the people on what you imagine champagne to symbolise. It's not that different from laptops, cameras and smartphones, which are all acceptable to people here.



This thread is an argument about symbolism - absolutely - because there is no singular purpose / function to Champagne and posh cheese apart from the symbolic. The price dictates the pleasure, a pleasure derived from a sense of superiority. Apple laptops and suchlike are marketed the same way as champagne, and many can't afford any of this stuff, so I see how you have conflated the champagne with the computers.

However, the point about the phones and computers being different to Champers is that while they are all pitched as status objects, you can still apply for the job / phone the hospital / document the decline of your locality / Skype your long lost relatives with a bit of technology. Not so much with cheese. A phone and a computer are next on the list after 'basic essentials', and they have a use, while Champagne isn't on the list at all.

Now it's all a right old jolly laugh of course and nothing wrong with spunking one's hard-inherited cash and chowing down on hollow and purposeless status symbols and conversation pieces - but many many people are struggling with basic survival here so they would be justified to see C&F as a slap in the face. They might also see someone with a laptop and be envious too but the level of insult is completely different. There's a distinction between function (albeit expensive) and just mindlessly lording it up.

A concern I have with this thread is the convenient attempt to shut down debate (or just to have a lame pop at the editor) by suggesting that if you have a smartphone and a computer, you aren't poor 'enough' to comment or have an opinion. Irony being that if you were 'legit', you wouldn't have the kit to make a comment anyway.

C&F is a scapegoat because even if it didn't exist, the rents / house prices and gentrification would still be going on. Our government, our council, our Mayor, and a large enough number of old folk who vote endorse it all. In that sense C&F are simply an unfortunate side effect, so maybe we shouldn't wish them ill, or protest against them... or should we? Are these C&F people really salt-of-the-earth folk who just want to set up a little stall of wares, be part of the local community and earn an honest wage? Are they fuck. They don't give a fucking shit about Brixton, it's people, it's past, or it's future (unless any of that is commodifiable). They could have parachuted in to any part of London. There's no interest or loyalty. They are grasping, opportunist, empire building, jumped up, exploitative, Tory-boy pricks, flashing a v-sign at Brixton.

The scary bit is the lack of self-awareness. C&F seem confused and surprised by the reaction to their arrival. It goes to show that gentrification is propelled by people (from politicians, businesses and consumers) who really don't think things through.


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## killer b (Oct 21, 2013)

simonSW2 said:


> The price dictates the pleasure, a pleasure derived from a sense of superiority.


really?


----------



## simonSW2 (Oct 21, 2013)

Champagne is pure ideology - it's to do with celebration / treats / luxury / feeling like you've made it / living the dream / blah blah - it's predicated on superiority.

The only other pleasure is the alcohol content, which could be achieved with a pint of Fosters.


----------



## killer b (Oct 21, 2013)

i quite like(d) the taste of it tbh. much more than i liked the taste of fosters.


----------



## Hollis (Oct 21, 2013)

simonSW2 said:


> Champagne is pure ideology - it's to do with celebration / treats / luxury / feeling like you've made it / living the dream / blah blah - it's predicated on superiority.
> 
> The only other pleasure is the alcohol content, which could be achieved with a pint of Fosters.


 
I dunno, it tastes okay as well - and you get pissed quicker 'cause of the bubbles.


----------



## editor (Oct 21, 2013)

simonSW2 said:


> However, the point about the phones and computers being different to Champers is that while they are all pitched as status objects, you can still apply for the job / phone the hospital / document the decline of your locality / Skype your long lost relatives with a bit of technology. Not so much with cheese. A phone and a computer are next on the list after 'basic essentials', and they have a use, while Champagne isn't on the list at all..


Exactly. The whole argument is facile.

Champagne is often branded (and priced) as an aspirational status symbol, and the opportunity to sip the stuff in a champagne bar is something that is likely to remain out of the financial reach of many local residents (although they may enjoy a cheap bottle from a supermarket for a very special occasion).

Internet access, on the other hand, is often considered to be a ''fundamental right' and only a tiny proportion of laptops and smartphones are marketed in the same fashion as champagne. To many people, laptops and smartphones are just everyday, essential tools of communication/work/creative expression and their prospects may be very much the worse for not having access to them.


----------



## Winot (Oct 21, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I don't agree with that I'm afraid. There's an absurd level of stereotyping of opposition to this - you hate champagne! (and the Albert serves champagne!) YOU ARE BULLIES LEAVE C&F ALONE you have phones !!!!11±!!!!! what's wrong with cheese?????? - it's just a joke.
> 
> I don't think "both sides" are au fait at all - I think there are a bunch of people who want to pretend that it's all some weird imaginary class war hate campaign that has nothing to do with them or anything that's going on ever, and they will take any opportunity to say it's the middle class, it's the unemployed, it's not Brixton people, it's Brixton people who don't realise things have changed, Brixton people have sold the property for profit and none of them are being kicked out, etc etc
> 
> The position has been made very, very clear and if you're claiming it's otherwise (e.g. Yelkcub) you're the enemy. Work it out if you don't want to be.



So is your position that if someone doesn't want C+F closed down then they are *automatically* someone who is blind to the problems of inequality?


----------



## DRINK? (Oct 21, 2013)

editor said:


> Some posh bloke started giving the staff a hard time last night because he was unable to get a drink when he arrived at the bar as last orders were called. Happily his girlfriend put him straight, commenting, "Stop being such a fucking arsehole."




I have never ever seen a 'working class' bloke do this


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 21, 2013)

Ms T said:


> Brixton High Street is already dull, like most other High Streets. It depressed the hell out of me that all three of the Foot Locker units became mobile phone shops, plus half of Woolies, plus a previously family business (Websters).  Streatham has a much more diverse High Street, tatty though it is.


it all began to go wrong when the baked potato place and bradys shut


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## Pickman's model (Oct 21, 2013)

DRINK? said:


> I have never ever seen a 'working class' bloke do this


people of all classes can be arses in pubs, even in brixton


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 21, 2013)

simonSW2 said:


> Champagne is pure ideology - it's to do with celebration / treats / luxury / feeling like you've made it / living the dream / blah blah - it's predicated on superiority.
> 
> The only other pleasure is the alcohol content, which could be achieved with a pint of Fosters.


champagne c.12% fosters c.4%


----------



## Winot (Oct 21, 2013)

simonSW2 said:


> This thread is an argument about symbolism - absolutely - because there is no singular purpose / function to Champagne and posh cheese apart from the symbolic. The price dictates the pleasure, a pleasure derived from a sense of superiority.



The rest of your post was good, but it's absurd to claim that everyone who drinks champagne and eats posh cheese does it because they think they're superior.


----------



## leanderman (Oct 21, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> people of all classes can be arses in pubs, even in brixton



No - as we can see from the Brixton Village thread - only laaads/LADS behave badly.


----------



## leanderman (Oct 21, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> The position has been made very, very clear and if you're claiming it's otherwise (e.g. Yelkcub) you're the enemy. Work it out if you don't want to be.



And when all the enemy kulaks are dead we'll kill ... each other


----------



## Agent Sparrow (Oct 21, 2013)

Winot said:


> The rest of your post was good, but it's absurd to claim that everyone who drinks champagne and eats posh cheese does it because they think they're superior.


I basically agree with you on simonSW2's post - good post but not quite sure the motive for posh cheese/champagne is always superiority. There is definitely a sense of frivolousness and luxury about it that adds to the experience, but I'm not sure that's identical to superiority. 

Having said that, time and place can shift the context. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I quite like champagne, for a treat. Occasionally that might be a bottle at home, more occasionally it has been a glass somewhere swanky. Yet I would feel _really_ uncomfortable having a glass at C+F, both because of the sociodemographic nature of the area and also because Brixton seems "normal" to me rather than luxury, and won't be doing so.


----------



## BigMoaner (Oct 21, 2013)

Has anyone actually asked the people who live in the "poorest ward of Lambeth" what they think about the champagne and cheese shop? Seems like a lot of raging on behalf of people.


----------



## teuchter (Oct 21, 2013)

simonSW2 said:


> This thread is an argument about symbolism - absolutely - because there is no singular purpose / function to Champagne and posh cheese apart from the symbolic. The price dictates the pleasure, a pleasure derived from a sense of superiority.



To clarify, are you accusing the people who have posted on this thread that they've had a look in C&F and/or bought something there, of doing so because they want to derive pleasure from a sense of superiority?

Because I think that what I and others find irritating about some of the stuff being posted on this thread is that it's just lazy caricaturisation, of a kind that wouldn't be tolerated directed at other targets. An assumption that the only possible reason people might go there is to flaunt their wealth and lord it up over the neighbourhood poor.

And then when we try and make this point, certain posters then try and twist things to make it seem like we don't give a toss about the changes happening in Brixton or the poverty that exists nearby, and so on.


----------



## Dexter Deadwood (Oct 21, 2013)




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## gabi (Oct 21, 2013)

Youtube is blocked at work but please tell me that's harry enfield in his notting hill shop


----------



## teuchter (Oct 21, 2013)

editor said:


> Yes, that's right, but don't go assuming everyone has that amount of waste on two hour foie grass tasting sessions. For many people living right opposite the champagne bar, it's a week's food budget.



This is an example of what people are reacting to. Or what I'm reacting to, at least.

1) Note the use of the word "waste". Not "spend". There's a judgement made about the frivolity of the purchase. This is the "spending money on things I don't like" thing. Hence comments about peersonal choices to spend more than necessary on, say, a smartphone.

2) The assumption that someone making a comment about £40 not being all that expensive compared to certain things, automatically has no concept of the possibility that it *is* a lot of money to many people in other situations. It's either disingenuous or it's patronising. Either way it's very irritating.


----------



## simonSW2 (Oct 21, 2013)

It's okay people, you can still have a glass of Champagne without feeling like an evil oppressor! 

I'm not saying anyone who drinks Champagne does so intentionally to act or feel superior, I'm saying the drink is so heavily loaded with subliminal associations of 'success'
(Success as defined by Western neo-liberal ideology) that the appeal of it is principally I n what it signifies, rather than the liquid itself or the alcohol content.

You might just want to try it, innocently, and without being mean or showy, and that's allright, but somewhere below the surface is a devisive endorsement. 

I remember a party where a few guys were hoofing cocaine off a coffee table while also discussing how mad it was that someone is shot dead in Mexico every 15 minutes. These guys weren't stood on the border with AK-47's aimed at Mexican heads, but they are endorsing.

There are plenty of folk who don't like inequality who will still pop into C&F for some futile fromage, so what, in the scheme it doesn't matter I suppose. I choose not to partake.


----------



## boohoo (Oct 21, 2013)

BigMoaner said:


> Has anyone actually asked the people who live in the "poorest ward of Lambeth" what they think about the champagne and cheese shop? Seems like a lot of raging on behalf of people.



^^^This!

Most the time when you haven't got lots of dosh, your main concern is making ends meet, where you do your shopping, have you got enough cash to clothe yourself, your family, hoping your rent or any other bills don't go up, turning the hot water switch off and just putting it on when you need it, turning the heating down. 

There are many more things to get angry about before you get to the C & F shop.


----------



## Chilavert (Oct 21, 2013)

simonSW2 said:


> You might just want to try it, innocently, and without being mean or showy, and that's allright,


Thanks so much for your approval.


----------



## editor (Oct 21, 2013)

BigMoaner said:


> Has anyone actually asked the people who live in the "poorest ward of Lambeth" what they think about the champagne and cheese shop? Seems like a lot of raging on behalf of people.


I've asked quite a few people around my estate, friends, people in the local cafes/pubs and amongst the traders, yes.


----------



## Rushy (Oct 21, 2013)

simonSW2 said:


> It's okay people, you can still have a glass of Champagne without feeling like an evil oppressor!
> 
> I'm not saying anyone who drinks Champagne does so intentionally to act or feel superior, I'm saying the drink is so heavily loaded with subliminal associations of 'success'
> (Success as defined by Western neo-liberal ideology) that the appeal of it is principally I n what it signifies, rather than the liquid itself or the alcohol content.
> ...



Sure. I've read all about the ethics of Coltan mining in the congo on my PDA.
I've wondered whether coffee beans are Fairtrade and whether Fairtrade is really such a great deal for peasant workers over a flat white.

Actually, in contrast, grape picking in the UK/France has its faults and its bad guys but in general you are buying a responsibly made product - particularly if you are buying from small retailers who have limited purchasing clout and specialise in buying from small producers.

Yes - the massive corporate branding of champagne has made the product "exclusive". But if anything C+F seems to be contributing towards breaking that down. Helping explode the myth that the corporate Champagne superbrands are so damned special.

It's good that we question things. But singling out champagne drinkers is a lazy distraction. To varying degrees most people could afford £8 for a glass of champagne as a treat if they wanted. Many, like me, would usually choose not to - it just does not seem like good value to me. And there are a small number who could not whether they wanted to or not.

But people who have a £40 weekly food budget do not spend £2.70 or £5.40 for two /day on barrista made coffee - an entirely non essential. Or £4something on a pint. They are excluded full stop. Complaining about champagne drinkers from the comfort of a wifi enabled pub or coffee shop is already a conspicuous privilege not available to all and attempts to justify one over the other seems to have more to do with justifying the complainants' own consumption patterns than genuine concern for the excluded. Throwing stones from inside glass fronted coffee shops, and all that...


----------



## jezg (Oct 21, 2013)

teuchter said:


> To clarify, are you accusing the people who have posted on this thread that they've had a look in C&F and/or bought something there, of doing so because they want to derive pleasure from a sense of superiority?
> 
> Because I think that what I and others find irritating about some of the stuff being posted on this thread is that it's just lazy caricaturisation, of a kind that wouldn't be tolerated directed at other targets. An assumption that the only possible reason people might go there is to flaunt their wealth and lord it up over the neighbourhood poor.
> 
> And then when we try and make this point, certain posters then try and twist things to make it seem like we don't give a toss about the changes happening in Brixton or the poverty that exists nearby, and so on.



Hi
Didn't you do something "in a similar vein" in post #2075 where you caricatured Brixton Brewery as a "yuppie" brewery? I'm not sure what you've based this on at all.


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## Rushy (Oct 21, 2013)

Just to add - please don't take my argument above as an endorsement of C+F. After the twattish service I received and justification of it from the owner (yes he is abusive but he is a cheese genius off the telly), I'll stick to Cannon and Cannon and Market Row wines when I want something a bit special.


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## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Oct 21, 2013)

jezg said:


> Hi
> Didn't you do something "in a similar vein" in post #2075 where you caricatured Brixton Brewery as a "yuppie" brewery? I'm not sure what you've based this on at all.


 
It was meant to be a parallel with editor's recent Brixton Beers. Cos editor doesn't like yuppies, right, but that apparently looks a bit yuppyish if you squint at it in a certain light.


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## editor (Oct 21, 2013)

Rushy said:


> It's good that we question things. But singling out champagne drinkers is a lazy distraction.


I didn't realise the argument was about "singling out champagne drinkers."  I thought it was about the socio-economic impact of an exclusive, expensive champagne bar opening up in a traditional market, and the impact it may have on the future direction of the market, and whether it may accelerate the growing poor/rich divide in the area. That's my areas of concern anyway. 

I have no particular opinion about champagne drinkers, although I personally would feel rather uncomfortable drinking it in such an environment.


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## editor (Oct 21, 2013)

jezg said:


> Hi
> Didn't you do something "in a similar vein" in post #2075 where you caricatured Brixton Brewery as a "yuppie" brewery? I'm not sure what you've based this on at all.


For the record, the Brixton Brewery came along to our beer launch and immediately offered to help out. They seem like nice people to me.


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## TruXta (Oct 21, 2013)

editor said:


> I didn't realise the argument was about "singling out champagne drinkers."  I thought it was about the socio-economic impact of an exclusive, expensive champagne bar opening up in a traditional market, and the impact it may have on the future direction of the market, and whether it may accelerate the growing poor/rich divide in the area. That's my areas of concern anyway.
> 
> I have no particular opinion about champagne drinkers, although I personally would feel rather uncomfortable drinking it in such an environment.


Isn't it a bit early to judge that impact? It might not have very much at all - seems to me it's a bit premature to say it has. As a symbol of gentrification it has already had a bit of impact if this place is a yardstick for anything at all (which might or might not be the case).


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## editor (Oct 21, 2013)

TruXta said:


> Isn't it a bit early to judge that impact?


Yes, and I tried to word my post to say that.

I don't think it's ever too early to start the discussion though!


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## TruXta (Oct 21, 2013)

editor said:


> Yes, and I tried to word my post to say that.
> 
> I don't think it's ever too early to start the discussion though!


Of course not. The problem - which I'd say is evident in the various strands of this thread - is the wildly varying yardsticks people use to measure these impacts. Not to mention conflating the symbolic effect with actual economical effects their establishment has on other traders, traders outside the market and finally on the economy of the entire area. Until someone takes a long hard look at actual data we can huff and puff all we like and produce nothing but more hot air.


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## Onket (Oct 21, 2013)

editor said:


> I didn't realise the argument was about "singling out champagne drinkers."  I thought it was about the socio-economic impact of an exclusive, expensive champagne bar opening up in a traditional market,


 
Brixton Village has not been a traditional market for quite some time. I appreciate this is the straw that broke the camel's back, for you, but you, and many on these boards, have been a strong supporter of many other ventures over the years which have directly brought us, and the gentrification, to where it is now.


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## editor (Oct 21, 2013)

TruXta said:


> Of course not. The problem - which I'd say is evident in the various strands of this thread - is the wildly varying yardsticks people use to measure these impacts. Not to mention conflating the symbolic effect with actual economical effects their establishment has on other traders, traders outside the market and finally on the economy of the entire area. Until someone takes a long hard look at actual data we can huff and puff all we like and produce nothing but more hot air.


I will say one thing: nothing has polarised opinion more than the opening of Champagne and Fromage so it's clear that it represents something more than just another market opening.

This thread has been seen nearly 60k times, and the articles on BrixtonBuzz have had huge traffic too.


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## TruXta (Oct 21, 2013)

editor said:


> I will say one thing: nothing has polarised opinion more than the opening of Champagne and Fromage so it's clear that it represents something more than just another market opening.
> 
> This thread has been seen nearly 60k times, and the articles on BrixtonBuzz have had huge traffic too.


Could be true, could be (at least partially) an effect of what I think is a greater usage of/interest in digital coverage of all things Brixton. That said - as this thread shows, C+F has become a bit of a perfect storm. It'll be interesting to see the market a year from now.


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## Yelkcub (Oct 21, 2013)

Rushy said:


> But people who have a £40 weekly food budget do not spend £2.70 or £5.40 for two /day on barrista made coffee - an entirely non essential. Or £4something on a pint. They are excluded full stop. Complaining about champagne drinkers from the comfort of a wifi enabled pub or coffee shop is already a conspicuous privilege not available to all and attempts to justify one over the other seems to have more to do with justifying the complainants' own consumption patterns than genuine concern for the excluded. Throwing stones from inside glass fronted coffee shops, and all that...



That's it, in a nutshell.


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## littlebabyjesus (Oct 21, 2013)

TruXta said:


> Could be true, could be (at least partially) an effect of what I think is a greater usage of/interest in digital coverage of all things Brixton. That said - as this thread shows, C+F has become a bit of a perfect storm. It'll be interesting to see the market a year from now.


Yep. It's visibly a place that signals likely rent rises. But it isn't necessarily the lead indicator of such things - as noted above, sharp hikes in rents leads to a proliferation of mobile phone shops as much as anything, which I would argue has a far more detrimental effect on a shopping district.


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## TruXta (Oct 21, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Yep. It's visibly a place that signals likely rent rises. But it isn't necessarily the lead indicator of such things - as noted above, sharp hikes in rents leads to a proliferation of mobile phone shops as much as anything, which I would argue has a far more detrimental effect on a shopping district.


But as has been said in this thread (and others before it) - one can simultaneously hate the proliferation of phone/betting/payday loan shops AND places like C+F/Honest Burger/Whine Parlour.


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## Chilavert (Oct 21, 2013)

editor said:


> I will say one thing: nothing has polarised opinion more than the opening of Champagne and Fromage so it's clear that it represents something more than just another market opening.
> 
> This thread has been seen nearly 60k times, and the articles on BrixtonBuzz have had huge traffic too.


Has the opening really polarised opinions though (on here at least)?

I'm not reading back through all 81 pages, but my view was that some people are opposed to Champers and Cheesy-Pops entirely and others remain to be convinced that some of the criticism that it has received is entirely justified.

For opinion to be polarised imo you'd need people to be welcoming the arrival of C&F with open arms and I'm not sure that has been the case (on here at least).

Edited to add: for me the obvious parallel is with the opening of Foxtons; both are obvious summaries of the gentrification of the area.


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## TruXta (Oct 21, 2013)

Chilavert said:


> Has the opening really polarised opinions though (on here at least)?
> 
> I'm not reading back through all 81 pages, but my view was that some people are opposed to Champers and Cheesy-Pops entirely and others remain to be convinced that some of the criticism that it has received is entirely justified.
> 
> For opinion to be polarised imo you'd need people to be welcoming the arrival of C&F with open arms and I'm not sure that has been the case (on here at least).


Going on the reports from posters passing by it seems to be have been welcomed with open arms and wallets by many a customer (some of which have posted on this thread).


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## jezg (Oct 21, 2013)

Onket said:


> Brixton Village has not been a traditional market for quite some time. I appreciate this is the straw that broke the camel's back, for you, but you, and many on these boards, have been a strong supporter of many other ventures over the years which have directly brought us, and the gentrification, to where it is now.



Agreed, Coffee shops seem to have some sort of force field that shields them from these types of arguments. Am thinking of Goodbench, Federation etc.


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## editor (Oct 21, 2013)

Chilavert said:


> For opinion to be polarised imo you'd need people to be welcoming the arrival of C&F with open arms and I'm not sure that has been the case (on here at least).


You'll find no shortage of people who have positively welcomed the opening of the place. Not so much here perhaps, but there's plenty of online comments and articles in print thinking the place is a fabulous addition to Brixton Village. This week's Lambeth Weekend, for example, rather disappointingly, praises the place to the hilt.


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## Yelkcub (Oct 21, 2013)

editor said:


> This thread has been seen nearly 60k times, and the articles on BrixtonBuzz have had huge traffic too.



Are they unique views? I.e. Does every time I open this thread count as one of those 60k?


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## littlebabyjesus (Oct 21, 2013)

TruXta said:


> But as has been said in this thread (and others before it) - one can simultaneously hate the proliferation of phone/betting/payday loan shops AND places like C+F/Honest Burger/Whine Parlour.


As long as people are clear about what it is they are hating and why, that's ok. I'm not so sure many people are that clear about it.


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## Chilavert (Oct 21, 2013)

editor said:


> You'll find no shortage of people who have positively welcomed the opening of the place. Not so much here perhaps, but you'll find no shortage of online comments and article in print thinking the place is a great idea for Brixton. This week's Lambeth Weekend, for example, rather disappointingly, praises the place to the hilt.


Rightly or wrongly I only use this place as my electronic guide to Brixton. 

Truxta: I've only walked past the place on a couple of occasions; once to see the demo and the other on Saturday lunchtime as I was explaining the debate on here to my girlfriend and it wasn't busy. 

I might ask the locals in the Elm for their views the next time I swing by for a pint though.


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## editor (Oct 21, 2013)

Yelkcub said:


> Are they unique views? I.e. Does every time I open this thread count as one of those 60k?


Does it matter? It still adds up to a shedload of views.


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## TruXta (Oct 21, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> As long as people are clear about what it is they are hating and why, that's ok. I'm not so sure many people are that clear about it.


I don't see what's all that wrong about general dislike of a place like C+F, for instance.


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## littlebabyjesus (Oct 21, 2013)

TruXta said:


> I don't see what's all that wrong about general dislike of a place like C+F, for instance.



That's fine. I dislike it for its promotion of fois gras and refusal to sell any alcoholic drink other than Champagne, the first of which I think is morally wrong, the second poncey and snobby. But certain kinds of good food are expensive, and I don't hate it simply because it concentrates on those things.


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## TruXta (Oct 21, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> That's fine. I dislike it for its promotion of fois gras and refusal to sell any alcoholic drink other than Champagne, the first of which I think is morally wrong, the second poncey and snobby. But certain kinds of good food are expensive, and I don't hate it simply because it concentrates on those things.


If I hated any place that sold good food I'd run into problems every time I choose to eat out. It's that they sell bubbles and posh expensive cheese in THAT MARKET. Had it been in Kensington no one would've batted an eyelid.


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## Yelkcub (Oct 21, 2013)

editor said:


> Does it matter? It still adds up to a shedload of views.



Is had a significant impact on how many people are talking about it, IMO. There about 2.5k replies here but a lot of them are from the same people, so the polarised opinion your talking about is among a very small sample.


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## editor (Oct 21, 2013)

Yelkcub said:


> Is had a significant impact on how many people are talking about it, IMO. There about 2.5k replies here but a lot of them are from the same people, so the polarised opinion your talking about is among a very small sample.


I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here, but generally a huge amount of page impressions is a good indicator that the topic is a popular one. The articles on BBuzz have had tens of thousands of page impressions and attracted a wide variety of views in the comments, and the opening has been reported widely in the media.

The facebook event page was particularly contentious too.


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## littlebabyjesus (Oct 21, 2013)

TruXta said:


> If I hated any place that sold good food I'd run into problems every time I choose to eat out. It's that they sell bubbles and posh expensive cheese in THAT MARKET. Had it been in Kensington no one would've batted an eyelid.


I have a very different take on that. I find places that are relentlessly upmarket like Kensington far more objectionable than places with a mix of up and downmarket like Brixton. It is the likes of Kensington that exclude.


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## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Oct 21, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I have a very different take on that. I find places that are relentlessly upmarket like Kensington far more objectionable than places with a mix of up and downmarket like Brixton. It is the likes of Kensington that exclude.


 
But isn't the point that C&F wouldn't be seen to be particularly excluding, in the context of somewhere like Kensington. It would just be another posh place like all the others.


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## Yelkcub (Oct 21, 2013)

editor said:


> I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here, but generally a huge amount of page impressions is a good indicator that the topic is a popular one. The articles on BBuzz have had tens of thousands of page impressions, and the opening has been reported widely in the media.



There was really a point, other than me not knowing if views are somehow counted just once from each user basically.


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## littlebabyjesus (Oct 21, 2013)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> But isn't the point that C&F wouldn't be seen to be particularly excluding, in the context of somewhere like Kensington. It would just be another posh place like all the others.


The whole of Kensington is excluding. One of London's strengths - in many parts - is that rich and poor don't live separated lives, but Kensington isn't like that.


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## TruXta (Oct 21, 2013)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> But isn't the point that C&F wouldn't be seen to be particularly excluding, in the context of somewhere like Kensington. It would just be another posh place like all the others.


This.


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## TruXta (Oct 21, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> The whole of Kensington is excluding. One of London's strengths - in many parts - is that rich and poor don't live separated lives, but Kensington isn't like that.


But they do - even if they live on the same street. Just because the rich pass the poor on the same street doesn't mean their lives aren't separated.


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## littlebabyjesus (Oct 21, 2013)

TruXta said:


> But they do - even if they live on the same street. Just because the rich pass the poor on the same street doesn't mean their lives aren't separated.


Not in the same way as many other places. They will drink in the same pubs and shop in many of the same shops.

Han mentioned the US earlier, and in the US, rich and poor generally live totally separate lives.


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## editor (Oct 21, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Not in the same way as many other places. They will drink in the same pubs and shop in many of the same shops.
> 
> Han mentioned the US earlier, and in the US, rich and poor generally live totally separate lives.


I'm already seeing the start of a big dividing line separating nu-Brixton wealth from the social housing surrounding it.


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## TruXta (Oct 21, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Not in the same way as many other places. They will drink in the same pubs and shop in many of the same shops.
> 
> Han mentioned the US earlier, and in the US, rich and poor generally live totally separate lives.


It's more spacially separated in the US, true, but as I said just because you live on the same street/area doesn't mean you share much in the way of a life. Rich and poor both shopping in Tescos doesn't strike me as an indicator of terrific social inclusivity.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 21, 2013)

TruXta said:


> It's more spacially separated in the US, true, but as I said just because you live on the same street/area doesn't mean you share much in the way of a life. Rich and poor both shopping in Tescos doesn't strike me as an indicator of terrific social inclusivity.


won't see many poor people in tescos filling their carts with champagne or chivas regal


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## TruXta (Oct 21, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> won't see many poor people in tescos filling their carts with champagne or chivas regal


TBH I've never seen _anyone_ fill their carts with Chivas. Vile drink that it is.


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## littlebabyjesus (Oct 21, 2013)

TruXta said:


> It's more spacially separated in the US, true, but as I said just because you live on the same street/area doesn't mean you share much in the way of a life. Rich and poor both shopping in Tescos doesn't strike me as an indicator of terrific social inclusivity.



But that spacial separation makes it worse. If anything, yet another posh eatery opening in Kensington is just as objectionable as, or even more so, one opening in Brixton.


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## TruXta (Oct 21, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> If anything, yet another posh eatery opening in Kensington is just as objectionable as, or even more so, one opening in Brixton.


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## leanderman (Oct 21, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> But that spacial separation makes it worse. If anything, yet another posh eatery opening in Kensington is just as objectionable as, or even more so, one opening in Brixton.



If it's wrong, it's wrong anywhere.


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## Badgers (Oct 21, 2013)




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## Pickman's model (Oct 21, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> But that spacial separation makes it worse. If anything, yet another posh eatery opening in Kensington is just as objectionable as, or even more so, one opening in Brixton.


when was the last time you got worked up about a posh business opening in a posh part of london?


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## leanderman (Oct 21, 2013)

We are in a Brixton bubble where we think only we have such places opening, only we have soaring rents and house prices, only we have poor people. 

It's happening everywhere. 

C+F is a sign of rising affluence (for some) and changing consumption patterns. 

My parents barely touched wine, let alone champagne. 

And went to their graves - not so long ago - not knowing what an aubergine was, or prosciutto and foie gras.


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## TruXta (Oct 21, 2013)

leanderman said:


> We are in a Brixton bubble where we think only we have such places opening, only we have soaring rents and house prices, only we have poor people.
> 
> .


No, we're not.


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## Nedrop (Oct 21, 2013)

passed by C&F on Saturday afternoon, full to the brim with people enjoying their afternoon


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## leanderman (Oct 21, 2013)

Nedrop said:


> passed by C&F on Saturday afternoon, full to the brim with people enjoying their afternoon



Whole market was horrendously busy on Saturday. Queues for food. Aisle gridlock.


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## T & P (Oct 21, 2013)

*ahem*


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## Crispy (Oct 21, 2013)

I like doing my food shop at the market, but I am now restricted to saturday mornings. Even lunchtime is hellish.


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## Gramsci (Oct 21, 2013)

Rushy said:


> That even happens in some of the housing co-ops. Set up on a principle of distribution according to need but empty nesters (sometimes those who set the thing up) don't want to downgrade when the time comes. You end up with big houses occupied by a couple at a very low rent and young families in a 1 bed with no garden.


 
This also happens with home owners. Own a family sized house. Children leave and a partner dies and then they are left in a family size house on there own. Which they do not want to leave for sentimental reasons.


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## editor (Oct 21, 2013)

Nothing wrong with having champagne on a special occasion.


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## editor (Oct 21, 2013)

Nedrop said:


> passed by C&F on Saturday afternoon, full to the brim with people enjoying their afternoon








Isn't having money great?!


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## Rushy (Oct 21, 2013)

Gramsci said:


> This also happens with home owners. Own a family sized house. Children leave and a partner dies and then they are left in a family size house on there own. Which they do not want to leave for sentimental reasons.


The key line there was "set up on a principle of distribution according to need". Privately owned homes are not set up on that principle. They are not shared by the coop members. If distribution according to need does not work at a small coop level I struggle to see how it will work at a state level.


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## Gramsci (Oct 21, 2013)

Rushy said:


> The key line there was "set up on a principle of distribution according to need". Privately owned homes are not set up on that principle. They are not shared by the coop members. If distribution according to need does not work at a small coop level I struggle to see how it will work at a state level.


 
As far as I know Council tenants on secure tenancies cannont be made to downsize.

Permanent Coops usually work on same allocation procedures as larger Housing Associations. Often given 50% allocation to Council.

Where does your key line comes from?

Perhaps , in order to solve housing crisis, private home ownership should not be so sacrosanct.


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## Rushy (Oct 21, 2013)

Gramsci said:


> Perhaps , in order to solve housing crisis, private home ownership should not be so sacrosanct.


Perhaps it should not. But to make a change there needs to be some something pretty convincing to move to. Do developed proposals exist which are not open to priviledge/abuse/self interest and can guarantee there are no winners and losers. Bear in mind I was responding to this:


treelover said:


> That's incredible, profits like that, something is very very wrong with this Turbo capitalism, in many ways the restructuring of housing isn't much different than the old communist era where the elites(now the oligarchs, bank bosses, etc) lived in the best housing followed by the apparatchiks(finance workers, media, etc), while whole groups of families shared one flat.


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## Badgers (Oct 21, 2013)

I am only hear for the 2500th post people, as you were...


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## butchersapron (Oct 21, 2013)

Rushy said:


> Perhaps it should not. But to make a change there needs to be some something pretty convincing to move to. Do developed proposals exist which are not open to priviledge/abuse/self interest and can guarantee there are no winners and losers. Bear in mind I was responding to this:


Why should there not be winners and losers?


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## Winot (Oct 21, 2013)

Nedrop said:


> passed by C&F on Saturday afternoon, full to the brim with people flaunting



Edited to add approved wording.


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## Gramsci (Oct 21, 2013)

Yelkcub said:


> Is had a significant impact on how many people are talking about it, IMO. There about 2.5k replies here but a lot of them are from the same people, so the polarised opinion your talking about is among a very small sample.


 
This thread has had a large number of hits. Making it one the most viewed recent threads. The very high number of hits must be also due to people looking at thread but not posting up. Its known that journos and Cllrs lurk here. So its an issue. If it wasnt this thread would have ha low number of hits.

People in area have been asking me about C&F due to Yuppies Out FB page and this thread. Also Brixton Blog did article a while back about C&F coming here.

There are people I know who view Urban but do not post up here. ( too scary).

I would say from my unscientific sample of people outside Urban that it either it pisses them right off that Champagne bar comes to market. Or they see why it is a wind up but there are other more important issues to deal with in Brixton. Like affordable housing.

Not everyone I know likes Yuppies Out. But neither do they like bedroom tax, Council cuts, lack of Council being built and Council selling of land that could be used for affordable housing.


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## marty21 (Oct 21, 2013)

Gramsci said:


> As far as I know Council tenants on secure tenancies cannont be made to downsize.
> 
> Permanent Coops usually work on same allocation procedures as larger Housing Associations. Often given 50% allocation to Council.
> .


 
Yep, currently Council tenants can't be forced to downsize - although they would be hit by bedroom tax if they are underoccupying - Lambeth presumably has a financial incentive scheme to downsize or give up tenancy.

Co-ops vary - for the larger flats 3 beds and above - 75% should go to the local authority, 50% for smaller flats - although this can vary - and there are ways around it for the co-ops (I know I used to work for one) you get a 3 bed flat which should go to the LA - but instead of doing that - you move your own tenants around - leaving you with a bedsit or 1 bed - and you give that to the Local Authority - goes against the rules but ime LAs haven't been too fussed about enforcing it


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## editor (Oct 21, 2013)

marty21 said:


> Yep, currently Council tenants can't be forced to downsize - although they would be hit by bedroom tax if they are underoccupying - Lambeth presumably has a financial incentive scheme to downsize or give up tenancy.


Forcible downsizing could have a terrible impact on some, with older people forced out of their community and most likely shunted off into faraway places, miles from their family and friends.

If the council could guarantee smaller places within the same community - and offer financial incentives to help them move and give up the space (which some may find useful for accommodating visiting relatives/family)  - then it might make sense, but otherwise it's just a way to make peoples lives worse.


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## Nedrop (Oct 21, 2013)

editor indeed having money is wonderful. sadly as private rent is now so high in Lambeth i don't have much, even on a decent average salary it's tough to find a room in a shared place that doesn't take out over half your salary. Can't say i'll be frequenting C&F anytime soon but i don't feel any spite towards those who are, if that's how they choose to spend their money fair play to them


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## Winot (Oct 21, 2013)

TruXta said:


> But they do - even if they live on the same street. Just because the rich pass the poor on the same street doesn't mean their lives aren't separated.



But the argument isn't that the rich and poor aren't separated in Brixton - of course they are. The argument is that it's worse in rich ghettos like Kensington. And that if you don't want ghettos but would rather have 'coexistence', then the result of that is the existence of commercial establishments that cater for both ends of the spectrum.


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## editor (Oct 21, 2013)

Nedrop said:


> editor indeed having money is wonderful. sadly as private rent is now so high in Lambeth i don't have much, even on a decent average salary it's tough to find a room in a shared place that doesn't take out over half your salary. Can't say i'll be frequenting C&F anytime soon but i don't feel any spite towards those who are, if that's how they choose to spend their money fair play to them


I don't feel any particular 'spite' towards them either, but I feel angry at the growing rich/poor divide in Brixton and the slow but gradual pricing out of the poorer classes. 

If having a posh champagne bar opening less than 300 metres from a soup kitchen doesn't set alarm bells ringing, I don't know what does.


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## peterkro (Oct 21, 2013)

marty21 said:


> Yep, currently Council tenants can't be forced to downsize - although they would be hit by bedroom tax if they are underoccupying - Lambeth presumably has a financial incentive scheme to downsize or give up tenancy.
> 
> Co-ops vary - for the larger flats 3 beds and above - 75% should go to the local authority, 50% for smaller flats - although this can vary - and there are ways around it for the co-ops (I know I used to work for one) you get a 3 bed flat which should go to the LA - but instead of doing that - you move your own tenants around - leaving you with a bedsit or 1 bed - and you give that to the Local Authority - goes against the rules but ime LAs haven't been too fussed about enforcing it


I live in one of the four co-ops on the southbank,for every four vacancies one goes to Lambeth,one goes to Southwark and two are internal or from the wider co-op movement.One problem is people have a one bedroom then become a couple and then have a child necessitating a larger flat,that's how I got mine the previous occupants were a couple with a child who got a two bed when one became available I then got offered the one bed via Lambeths waiting list.The selection process is pretty fair with a majority on the interview panel not from the co-op itself.People are moved around for all sorts of reasons,children leaving home,becoming ill and needing space for carers and so on.As far as I can see it works very well and under or over occupancy doesn't last very long.


----------



## Onket (Oct 21, 2013)

Someone making a new point on this thread, that would set alarm bells ringing.

2500 yet?


----------



## marty21 (Oct 21, 2013)

editor said:


> Forcible downsizing could have a terrible impact on some, with older people forced out of their community and most likely shunted off into faraway places, miles from their family and friends.
> 
> If the council could guarantee smaller places within the same community - and offer financial incentives to help them move and give up the space (which some may find useful for accommodating visiting relatives/family)  - then it might make sense, but otherwise it's just a way to make peoples lives worse.


 people who agree to downsize hold all the cards - they have to agree to take a smaller place so can hold on until the council finds one they like (or they bid successfully for one) and they have a lot of priority points as the council wants them to move - and surely it is a good thing if they move to a smaller place - lower rent - lower costs (heating, council tax, etc) if it also allows an overcrowded family to move to a more suitable home


----------



## twentythreedom (Oct 21, 2013)

Badgers


----------



## TruXta (Oct 21, 2013)

What?


----------



## Yelkcub (Oct 21, 2013)

editor said:


> Forcible downsizing could have a terrible impact on some, with older people forced out of their community and most likely shunted off into faraway places, miles from their family and friends.
> 
> If the council could guarantee smaller places within the same community - and offer financial incentives to help them move and give up the space (which some may find useful for accommodating visiting relatives/family)  - then it might make sense, but otherwise it's just a way to make peoples lives worse.



Harrow pay people to move, kind of...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-24474380


----------



## lang rabbie (Oct 21, 2013)

The regulars in the Beehive had better get ready to repel boarders...




			
				Foursquare said:
			
		

> *The Beehive (Wetherspoon)*
> 407-409 Brixton Rd., Brixton, London SW9 7DG
> ...
> Champagne Brut Baron de Marck France 6.50 - 37.00Saumur Brut Rosé Gamay Cabernet Franc Domaine de Brizé France 29.00
> ...



Daft buggers at foursquare have actually auto-linked the Brixton pub to the menu of the Marylebone gastropub of same name


----------



## Badgers (Oct 21, 2013)




----------



## Onket (Oct 21, 2013)

Late.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 21, 2013)

Onket


----------



## Yelkcub (Oct 21, 2013)

Onket said:


> Late.


Don't worry, 3000 is coming!


----------



## Onket (Oct 21, 2013)

I want to be top of page 100.


----------



## Yelkcub (Oct 21, 2013)

Onket said:


> I want to be top of page 100.


Looking down on everyone one, I'll bet, flaunting!


----------



## Onket (Oct 21, 2013)

Too fucking right. Just you wait, I'll show you, etc.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 21, 2013)

Yelkcub said:


> Looking down on everyone one, I'll bet, flaunting!


if you've got it flaunt it


----------



## teuchter (Oct 21, 2013)

editor said:


> perhaps we could engage our energies in discussing the far more important issue of the socio-economic impact of a champagne bar opening up in the poorest ward in Lambeth rather than pursuing gloriously irrelevant ad hominem attacks and nit picking debates on what make of phone someone is using?



Ok.

*prepares for nuanced, healthy, thoughtful socio-economic debate and discussion*




editor said:


> Isn't having money great?!



Good work


----------



## editor (Oct 21, 2013)

teuchter said:


> Good work


With your endless stream of ad hominems and personal digs, you've done a grand job of extinguishing any hope of a grown up debate about the actual issues, and, as you can see, I've given up. 

Well done. You must be very proud of yourself.


----------



## snowy_again (Oct 21, 2013)

potkettle.gif


----------



## teuchter (Oct 21, 2013)

editor said:


> as you can see, I've given up.



I trust we will see no further contributions from you on this thread, then.


----------



## editor (Oct 21, 2013)

teuchter said:


> I trust we will see no further contributions from you on this thread, then.


I said I've given up hope of a grown up debate, bully.


----------



## teuchter (Oct 21, 2013)

editor said:


> I said I've given up hope of a grown up debate, bully.



Right. When it comes to ad hominem, that's a pretty nasty one, and unwarranted. People have had bans for less.


----------



## BigMoaner (Oct 21, 2013)

Fuck all that, Lets Bubble!


----------



## BigMoaner (Oct 21, 2013)

30 prcent of the people on the escalator opposite me at brick tube had beards - FACT


----------



## twentythreedom (Oct 21, 2013)

Badgers said:


>


I set it all up for you, gracefully declined taking the glory for myself, tagged you and everything  Turning up late with a big shouty pic isn't fooling anyone. 

Fortunately, you will have the opportunity to redeem yourself when the thread reaches 3000 posts, probably about Wednesday afternoon


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 21, 2013)

BigMoaner said:


> 30 prcent of the people on the escalator opposite me at brick tube had beards - FACT



Some people can't grow a beard. Imagine how they must feel with all this flaunting of facial hair.


----------



## ibilly99 (Oct 21, 2013)

Time for some light relief with Champagne inspired songs....


----------



## ibilly99 (Oct 21, 2013)




----------



## ibilly99 (Oct 21, 2013)




----------



## leanderman (Oct 21, 2013)

Churchill on champagne: In victory, we deserve; in defeat, we need it


----------



## Onket (Oct 23, 2013)

Is this what happens when editor says he's not going to post on a thread anymore?!


----------



## ddraig (Oct 23, 2013)

i searched yahoo on this thread but didn't find anything
'Riots to Riches'
http://news.yahoo.com/riots-riches-...-034521968.html;_ylt=A2KLOzK7oGdSf00AxB_QtDMD

https://twitter.com/dlknowles/status/393037919197220864


----------



## ddraig (Oct 23, 2013)

from that article


> In a sign of the pressure on housing, in July the Lambeth Council local authority evicted around 70 squatters who had been living on the site for more than 13 years. Three of the buildings were sold, the others converted into social housing.


 
a lot of loaded wording all round really


----------



## Rushy (Oct 23, 2013)

Well it answers the questions someone posed about the Brixton £.


----------



## teuchter (Oct 23, 2013)

Onket said:


> Is this what happens when editor says he's not going to post on a thread anymore?!


I wonder if you might clarify what it is in particular that you have observed happening.


----------



## editor (Oct 23, 2013)

I very much enjoyed the full-on impassioned speech from the Brixton resident in yesterday's Town Hall meeting, where she voiced her concerns and anger that Brixton Village is now predominantly full of white middle class people, while outside can be found predominantly black/white working class people eating from the street stalls. 

In fact, I was overjoyed to find that most of the people in that meeting shared the same concerns as me about what's happening in Brixton. Apart from the non-Brixton property developer bloke from Brixton Green, of course.


----------



## Crispy (Oct 23, 2013)

editor said:


> In fact, I was overjoyed to find that most of the people in that meeting shared the same concerns as me about what's happening in Brixton.



Most likely due to all the WMCPs being at their 9-5 jobs and therefore unable to attend, unfortunately.


----------



## editor (Oct 23, 2013)

Crispy said:


> Most likely due to all the WMCPs being at their 9-5 jobs and therefore unable to attend, unfortunately.


Either way, it was refreshing to see the council/Brixton Green/developers being presented with the kind of well argued, passionate arguments direct from the community that perhaps they don't get to hear too often in their usual consultation meetings.


----------



## Onket (Oct 23, 2013)

teuchter said:


> I wonder if you might clarify what it is in particular that you have observed happening.



Nice and quiet, no bickering etc.


----------



## leanderman (Oct 23, 2013)

Walked past tonight and spotted a spectacular pair of yellow, not mustard, trousers in there.


----------



## SarfLondoner (Oct 23, 2013)

leanderman said:


> Walked past tonight and spotted a spectacular pair of yellow, not mustard, trousers in there.


Was down there earlier today and noticed a lot of Maroon going on in addition to the customary Red and like yourself i noticed a few yellow clad diners.


----------



## Onket (Oct 23, 2013)

You can get all shades like that from H&M. Hardly expensive or exclusive.


----------



## SarfLondoner (Oct 23, 2013)

I know


----------



## Onket (Oct 23, 2013)

I'm sure someone asked where they get them, on this thread.


----------



## SarfLondoner (Oct 23, 2013)

Onket said:


> You can get all shades like that from H&M. Hardly expensive or exclus


 Uni glow is the place for coloured Trousers.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 23, 2013)

editor said:


> Either way, it was refreshing to see the council/Brixton Green/developers being presented with the kind of well argued, passionate arguments direct from the community that perhaps they don't get to hear too often in their usual consultation meetings.



Was any record of the meeting kept? Will Anchor & Magnet produce a report of the meeting that can be put online?


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 24, 2013)

One thing that gentrification seems to bring is a fully functioning tube service at weekends.....

The Victoria line has not had a weekend closure for a while.


----------



## Ms T (Oct 24, 2013)

A reliable source told me today that Champagne & Fromage paid 30 grand not 50 to take over the lease.


----------



## Belushi (Oct 24, 2013)

TBF that's more likely to do with the end of the upgrade works. Completely ungentrified Tottenham is enjoying the same fully functioning service


----------



## mxh (Oct 24, 2013)

85 pages, is this a sponsored thread?


----------



## teuchter (Oct 24, 2013)

Nanker Phelge said:


> One thing that gentrification seems to bring is a fully functioning tube service at weekends.....
> 
> The Victoria line has not had a weekend closure for a while.


You may be getting the cause and effect the wrong way around here to some extent.


----------



## ash (Oct 24, 2013)

Having done some work recently in the Tottenham area I can authenticate Belushis pist


Belushi said:


> TBF that's more likely to do with the end of the upgrade works. Completely ungentrified Tottenham is enjoying the same fully functioning service [/quo


----------



## ash (Oct 24, 2013)

ash said:


> Having some work recently in the Tottenham area I can authenticate Belushis pist


Sorry I'm not sure if Belushu is pist I meant post


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 24, 2013)

teuchter said:


> You may be getting the cause and effect the wrong way around here to some extent.



It's a  topsy turvey world.


----------



## prunus (Oct 24, 2013)

editor said:


> If having a posh champagne bar opening less than 300 metres from a soup kitchen doesn't set alarm bells ringing, I don't know what does.



It does, but I think the alarm is about the growing and growing visibility of (financial) inequality in our society, of which the opening of C+F is a side-effect, not a cause.  It's not clear to me (very possibly because I'm not aware enough) why its opening should be protested against per se, closing it down for instance won't do anything to address the inequality, and the proprietors are not the right people to be making to protest (about inequality) to - they have no ability to affect it - that should be done to politicians, directed not at the side-effects but at the cause.

The appearance of this shop in Brixton makes people understandably angry, as it throws, almost flaunts, the inequality, in the faces of people who are on the poor side of the divide; however the anger shouldn't be directed (imo) at the thing that brings it into focus (would it be better if it went away and we could all pretend that there aren't rich people around?), but at the inequality itself.

I'm aware I've said the same thing basically twice here…

Would it not be better to protest the political system that means that C+F is an exclusive place (i.e. distribute the wealth such that everyone could choose to drink and eat there) than it itself?

Disclosure:  I am a relatively recent incomer (moved to Loughborough Junction in 2001 where I still am), middle class, white and relatively wealthy.  I don't like champagne much, but I do like cheese.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 24, 2013)

changing the political system is a big one...im not sure how many slices of dairylea will need sticking to how many foreheads, but i think more than tescos has in stock at the moment.

in the meantime it was right and proper to pull off a stunt that brings into relief what is going on, gets people talking about it, and focuses minds for what else can be done. The key battle here is not changing the global domination of rampant capitalism, but hopefully saving market stall holders who provide cheap food and household items that many people rely on. the next step is making sure that rents for those market traders can be kept as cheap as possible and that luxury tat doesn't spread over all available market stalls - which no doubt C&F are hoping for.

personally i think making the C&F owners feel uncomfortable and unwelcome is justified too (the feeling is mutual) - i get the impression they give zero shits about the community they've parachuted into (for reasons already gone over at length).


----------



## Ms T (Oct 24, 2013)

The source I was speaking to today thought it hilarious that she sees many of the "Yuppies Out" protestors on a regular basis in Café Federation.


----------



## prunus (Oct 24, 2013)

[Reply to ska invita] Yes, it is of course a big one; just sort of feels the anger is being poorly used here. Or not ideally used, perhaps. I take your point about raising awareness, and certainly it is very important that all if the market doesn't only cater for the well-off, that'd be a disaster. As long as the protest is noticed by the market management (and they take notice...) that's very valid.  Thanks for the reply 

Also, if they're not wanting to be part if the community as you say, I'm not happy about that. Fwiw. Markets have to be part of and at the heart of a community or both's souls are torn out. What's the evidence that they don't care?  How did they react to the protest?  If it was me I'd have invited some protesters in for free cheese and wine and talked to them. Engage or die. (Motto available for licensing at modest fee).


----------



## teuchter (Oct 24, 2013)

prunus said:


> The appearance of this shop in Brixton makes people understandably angry, as it throws, almost flaunts, the inequality, in the faces of people who are on the poor side of the divide; however the anger shouldn't be directed (imo) at the thing that brings it into focus (would it be better if it went away and we could all pretend that there aren't rich people around?), but at the inequality itself.



I agree, and I mentioned way earlier in the thread that sometimes it seems like people would prefer some kind of ghettoisation where certain areas are labelled "poor people only" and some "rich people only". One of London's strengths is that it is quite well mixed up in this way (compared to many cities) and while obviously the ideal situation would be one where inequality is much reduced, for as long as we have this inequality it's important people are at least aware of it. It's very easy in many places for the wealthier to live their life in quite complete isolation from those less fortunate. Nearly everyone where they live is in a similar situation to them, everyone in the shops they go to, and so on, and their daily routine seldom even involves going on public transport. It's hardly surprising people in that situation underestimate the level of privilege they have. It's difficult not to notice the differences between yourself and others if you live in London. So, I'm not really comfortable with the idea that the problem with C&F is its proximity to the "poor people". It's a bit patronising, even, I think, as if these poor people who live in London have until now simply not been introduced to the notion that other residents of the city are wealthy and quaff champagne or whatever.

I do accept that these things have an impact on housing costs locally of course. But I'd like to keep London as mixed up as possible and it's for the same reason that I think it's not on to ship out social housing to other parts of the city (or even country).


----------



## editor (Oct 25, 2013)

teuchter said:


> I agree, and I mentioned way earlier in the thread that sometimes it seems like people would prefer some kind of ghettoisation where certain areas are labelled "poor people only" and some "rich people only".


I must have missed that argument being presented. Perhaps you could enlighten me with some specific posts?

The whole point of the debate has been that well-financed, upmarket West End companies like C&F are part of a process that is _accelerating_ the growing inequality in Brixton, pricing out traditional traders and large chunks of the nearby community and turning what was a traditional market into something that few locals can afford.

The knock on effect of opening up champagne bars is that the area becomes more attractive to those who can afford such luxuries, which in turns inflates the housing market, which in turn prices out those at the bottom of the pile.  So the end result is that a large chunk of the existing community is either priced out of the market,  or forced to leave completely as they can no longer afford the rising rents, driven skywards by the area's new found 'desirability' to those who can afford to pay more.

Obviously this isn't solely down to C&F, but given their fucking stupid name and the obvious luxury connotations of their brand, it's not surprising that people have made them a poster boy for their concerns and expressed heartfelt worries about their impact on the local community.


----------



## editor (Oct 25, 2013)

Ms T said:


> The source I was speaking to today thought it hilarious that she sees many of the "Yuppies Out" protestors on a regular basis in Café Federation.


Federation is a locally-spawned small business that took a gamble on the market right at the start, and they started from the bottom. And the owners certainly aren't yuppies. So could you explain what your anonymous 'source' finds so 'hilarious', please?


----------



## editor (Oct 25, 2013)

ska invita said:


> personally i think making the C&F owners feel uncomfortable and unwelcome is justified too (the feeling is mutual) - i get the impression they give zero shits about the community they've parachuted into (for reasons already gone over at length).


That's how it feels to me too.


----------



## editor (Oct 25, 2013)

Here's the real problem. 
Report: Nation's Gentrified Neighborhoods Threatened By Aristocratisation


----------



## gabi (Oct 25, 2013)

editor said:


> Federation is a locally-spawned small business



What are you on about? It's owned and run by two guys from New Zealand who source their coffee from a guy based in recently gentrified Spitalfield Market. And it's fucking expensive in there. Nice coffee mind you. But I'm also sure the champagne joint serves up decently tasting stuff too.


----------



## leanderman (Oct 25, 2013)

ska invita said:


> changing the political system is a big one...im not sure how many slices of dairylea will need sticking to how many foreheads, but i think more than tescos has in stock at the moment.
> 
> in the meantime it was right and proper to pull off a stunt that brings into relief what is going on, gets people talking about it, and focuses minds for what else can be done. The key battle here is not changing the global domination of rampant capitalism, but hopefully saving market stall holders who provide cheap food and household items that many people rely on. the next step is making sure that rents for those market traders can be kept as cheap as possible and that luxury tat doesn't spread over all available market stalls - which no doubt C&F are hoping for.
> 
> personally i think making the C&F owners feel uncomfortable and unwelcome is justified too (the feeling is mutual) - i get the impression they give zero shits about the community they've parachuted into (for reasons already gone over at length).



They claim they will take the Brixton pound, which shows a small degree of giving a shit.


----------



## leanderman (Oct 25, 2013)

editor said:


> I must have missed that argument being presented. Perhaps you could enlighten me with some specific posts?
> 
> The whole point of the debate has been that well-financed, upmarket West End companies like C&F are part of a process that is _accelerating_ the growing inequality in Brixton, pricing out traditional traders and large chunks of the nearby community and turning what was a traditional market into something that few locals can afford.
> 
> ...



The whole point of the debate is 'whether' not 'that' - or it isn't a debate at all. 

Again, I believe C+F is simply a symptom of the crazy London-wide housing crisis, which has made 'even' Brixton acceptable to the well-off. 

Rents are soaring irrespective of Brixton village. Sixty per cent of locals in the Coldharbour ward should be ok though because they are in social housing. And that is a very large chunk

C+F is also a sign of growing affluence (for some).


----------



## innit (Oct 25, 2013)

editor said:


> Federation is a locally-spawned small business that took a gamble on the market right at the start, and they started from the bottom. And the owners certainly aren't yuppies. So could you explain what your anonymous 'source' finds so 'hilarious', please?


I love feds and I don't think the owners are posh, but pretty sure they are both ex city (goldmans maybe).


----------



## leanderman (Oct 25, 2013)

innit said:


> I love feds and I don't think the owners are posh, but pretty sure they are both ex city (goldmans maybe).



Didn't know that. 

They are good sponsors of things, such as local primary school calendar etc.


----------



## Ms T (Oct 25, 2013)

editor said:


> Federation is a locally-spawned small business that took a gamble on the market right at the start, and they started frRom the bottom. And the owners certainly aren't yuppies. So could you explain what your anonymous 'source' finds so 'hilarious', please?


it's the most expensive coffee in Brixton and probably been responsible for a lot of the Village's success. I like the Fed guys too and wish them well. My friend was merely pointing out a certain irony. And there's irony too in the fact that one of the traditional businesses that we are so busy defending pocketed 30 grand from the C + F deal.


----------



## Rushy (Oct 25, 2013)

Ms T said:


> it's the most expensive coffee in Brixton and probably been responsible for a lot of the Village's success. I like the Fed guys too and wish them well. My friend was merely pointing out a certain irony. And there's irony too in the fact that one of the traditional businesses that we are so busy defending pocketed 30 grand from the C + F deal.


Not to forget they profited (more modestly) from the Honest deal too. And look set to profit from another corner unit opposite C+F. So I am reliably told by another unit owner.


----------



## gabi (Oct 25, 2013)

Ms T said:


> it's the most expensive coffee in Brixton and probably been responsible for a lot of the Village's success. I like the Fed guys too and wish them well. My friend was merely pointing out a certain irony. And there's irony too in the fact that one of the traditional businesses that we are so busy defending pocketed 30 grand from the C + F deal.



It's not irony, it's massive hypocrisy


----------



## lighterthief (Oct 25, 2013)

What was on the site originally before C&F set up shop?


----------



## editor (Oct 25, 2013)

Ms T said:


> it's the most expensive coffee in Brixton and probably been responsible for a lot of the Village's success.


Their coffee is the same price as the Ritzy, and I'm still not entirely sure what your friend found so "hilarious" about the sight of certain people drinking there or how she recognised them. They are a local start up serving decent tea/coffee/cakes at relatively affordable prices and have been operating in Brixton for several years. C&F are a well-funded expanding West End champagne bar who have just arrived here. Their prices are unaffordable to many.

For the record, I hardly ever go to Federation any more, even though I like the guys that started it. The _ambience_ is all wrong for me now.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Oct 25, 2013)

leanderman said:


> C+F is also a sign of growing affluence (for some).


 
in this society only the affluent are growing more affluence.  social mobility has entirely collapsed.


----------



## lang rabbie (Oct 25, 2013)

PUBLIC INFORMATION POST


----------



## teuchter (Oct 25, 2013)

editor said:


> I must have missed that argument being presented. Perhaps you could enlighten me with some specific posts?



Waste my time constructing a point so you can dismiss it with your arrogant "can't be arsed with your barmy ideas" routine yet again? Nah, I've got work to do today.


----------



## editor (Oct 25, 2013)

teuchter said:


> Waste my time constructing a point so you can dismiss it with your arrogant "can't be arsed with your barmy ideas" routine yet again? Nah, I've got work to do today.


Well, that's certainly one way for you to get out of having to make sense of your 'argument', but no matter. Jog on and enjoy your busy day!


----------



## editor (Oct 25, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> in this society only the affluent are growing more affluence.  social mobility has entirely collapsed.


While the champagne glasses are being clinked in the Village, there's people struggling to survive mere metres across the road, there's people being evicted out of their homes, and there's growing numbers of people attending the nearby soup kitchen. It's fucked.


----------



## sparkybird (Oct 25, 2013)

Spot the difference

Asti spumanti 
Champagne

Nescafe instant coffee
Federation flat white

Iceland cheddar
Posh cheese


----------



## leanderman (Oct 25, 2013)

editor said:


> Their coffee is the same price as the Ritzy, and I'm still not entirely sure what your friend found so "hilarious" about the sight of certain people drinking there or how she recognised them. They are a local start up serving decent tea/coffee/cakes at relatively affordable prices and have been operating in Brixton for several years. C&F are a well-funded expanding West End champagne bar who have just arrived here. Their prices are unaffordable to many.
> 
> For the record, I hardly ever go to Federation any more, even though I like the guys that started it. The _ambience_ is all wrong for me now.



It's quite quiet in Fed right now. 

But what a long way it has come from that spot across the avenue. I remember going there just after it opened to sample my first flat white and bring one home to Mrs LM as if it were a trophy from a journey to distant lands.


----------



## TruXta (Oct 25, 2013)

Flat whites are the pits.


----------



## rutabowa (Oct 25, 2013)

flat whites are the best coffee currently being served in london.


----------



## Chilavert (Oct 25, 2013)

Coffee wankers


----------



## Onket (Oct 25, 2013)

I like the coffee from Greggs.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 25, 2013)

I like freeze dried coffee from Poundland


----------



## Mr Retro (Oct 25, 2013)

When the Canterbury closes perhaps Brian could become manager of C&F? It wouldn't solve the problems but it would level things out a bit

Astonished once again to be reading about a Briton I never thought was possible when I left only 5 years or so ago.


----------



## passivejoe (Oct 25, 2013)

editor said:


> While the champagne glasses are being clinked in the Village, there's people struggling to survive mere metres across the road, there's people being evicted out of their homes, and there's growing numbers of people attending the nearby soup kitchen. It's fucked.



You could say the same of anywhere within Zone 2 with a housing estate nearby. Now expensive privately owned houses sit 'mere metres' from others perhaps struggling. 

The alternative is a permanently itinerant population, with an individuals assessed and graded by disposable income and forced to reside in an area with those in the same grade.  Every work promotion you get means a move to a new borough so that you can stick with your own kind. Made redundant? You can't make your old neighbours in the Greggs queue feel guilty for being able to afford a sandwich for lunch when you're so hard up... so its time for you and your family to be shipped up to an out of town homeless shelter where you can join other homeless families and all be homeless together. Then nobody has to even look at someone with more / less disposable income than themselves.

I may be a Tory politician in the making.


----------



## teuchter (Oct 25, 2013)

Onket said:


> I like the coffee from Greggs.


How much does it cost? I might give this a go.


----------



## editor (Oct 25, 2013)

passivejoe said:


> You could say the same of anywhere within Zone 2 with a housing estate nearby. Now expensive privately owned houses sit 'mere metres' from others perhaps struggling.


Sure. But there's not many places 'enjoying' this rate of change or seeing the poverty gap grow so quickly in such a condensed area.


----------



## fredfelt (Oct 25, 2013)

sparkybird said:


> Spot the difference
> 
> Asti spumanti
> Champagne
> ...



Obviously there are other ways of looking at this but let me try:

Buy Asti and the profits are more likely to go to a global corporation, such as the 'General Beverage Coporation' than if you were to buy Champagne.

I don't know the Federation cafe but I assume they make a least a token efforts and get fair trade coffee.  Whereas the best Nescafe can do is sign up to some bullshit Rainforest Alliance label which means fuck all.

Similarly Iceland cheddar is likely to be sourced from a mega dairy which is probably part of a vertically integrated dairy conglomerate whereas posh cheese probably comes from a farm which has been handed down through generations. 

In each case the latter is more likely to be less 'tax efficient' and more integrated with with the locality where the product is produced.


----------



## passivejoe (Oct 25, 2013)

editor said:


> Sure. But there's not many places 'enjoying' this rate of change or seeing the poverty gap grow so quickly in such a condensed area.



That's true. I do think that the change for Brixton has been on the cards for a while. Sandwiched between Clapham, Herne Hill and Stockwell, all with much higher property prices, it was only a matter of time. Which I assume is why Foxtons moved into reset property values.


----------



## editor (Oct 25, 2013)

passivejoe said:


> That's true. I do think that the change for Brixton has been on the cards for a while. Sandwiched between Clapham, Herne Hill and Stockwell, all with much higher property prices, it was only a matter of time. Which I assume is why Foxtons moved into reset property values.


For sure - it's been coming for ages and places like C&F are only going to accelerate the process. I would wonder though if those other places are seeing such a rapidly widening gap between the haves and the have nots.

It seems strange that when people are all talking excitedly about Brixton 'improving' and 'being on the rise,' soup kitchens and food banks are opening up in the neighbourhood for the first time. Strangely, enough, those new 'pop-up' ventures in Brixton don't seem to be getting much media attention.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 25, 2013)

Going to ChaFro next weekend. Would Urban suggest a Friday evening or Saturday afternoon bubble? Which has the better vibe?


----------



## TruXta (Oct 25, 2013)

ChaFro schadenfreude?


----------



## editor (Oct 25, 2013)

Bubblegeddon.


----------



## teuchter (Oct 25, 2013)

Badgers said:


> Going to ChaFro next weekend. Would Urban suggest a Friday evening or Saturday afternoon bubble? Which has the better vibe?


Have you decided on your trouser colour yet Badgers? Maybe you could put it to a vote?


----------



## TruXta (Oct 25, 2013)

teuchter said:


> Have you decided on your trouser colour yet Badgers? Maybe you could put it to a vote?


He'd look darling in a pink tight one.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 25, 2013)

I am going off the peg and off da hook


----------



## T & P (Oct 25, 2013)

Chilavert said:


> Coffee wankers


I do find it funny that many of the countries that have _always _excelled at coffee (Italy, Spain, etc) have always managed perfectly with 3 basic offerings (black coffee, white coffee and 'cortado'), one size and no fancy names and toppings.

Give me a proper Gaggia-machine coffee on a small espresso cup anytime over all that Starbucks style shit.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 27, 2013)

fredfelt said:


> Obviously there are other ways of looking at this but let me try:
> 
> 
> I don't know the Federation cafe but I assume they make a least a token efforts and get fair trade coffee.  Whereas the best Nescafe can do is sign up to some bullshit Rainforest Alliance label which means fuck all.



Does Federation coffee get its coffee "Fair Trade"? Checked there website and it does not say that.

Just because a shop sells high quality goods like coffee does not mean that they are Fair Trade.

Starbucks are big conglomerate and a lot of there coffee is Fair Trade.


----------



## Mr Bim of Bar (Oct 27, 2013)

Badgers said:


> Going to ChaFro next weekend. Would Urban suggest a Friday evening or Saturday afternoon bubble? Which has the better vibe?


Went past yesterday around 2pm and was very busy, think you best try a Tuesday around 6am


----------



## isvicthere? (Oct 27, 2013)

gabi said:


> What are you on about? It's owned and run by two guys from New Zealand who source their coffee from a guy based in recently gentrified Spitalfield Market. And it's fucking expensive in there. Nice coffee mind you. But I'm also sure the champagne joint serves up decently tasting stuff too.



Last time I went in Federation, it was cheaper than mega-chain Caffe Nero.


----------



## isvicthere? (Oct 27, 2013)

T & P said:


> I do find it funny that many of the countries that have _always _excelled at coffee (Italy, Spain, etc) have always managed perfectly with 3 basic offerings (black coffee, white coffee and 'cortado').



I'm pretty sure (will now go and check) that Italy has more ways of serving coffee than any other country.


----------



## Manter (Oct 27, 2013)

T & P said:


> I do find it funny that many of the countries that have _always _excelled at coffee (Italy, Spain, etc) have always managed perfectly with 3 basic offerings (black coffee, white coffee and 'cortado'), one size and no fancy names and toppings.
> 
> Give me a proper Gaggia-machine coffee on a small espresso cup anytime over all that Starbucks style shit.


You have clearly never been to Spain! There are hundreds of ways of having your coffee over there, they are very precise about it. They also love silly additives- vanilla, cinnamon, sugar syrups, orange oil etc.


----------



## fortyplus (Oct 27, 2013)

lighterthief said:


> What was on the site originally before C&F set up shop?


Faiz Food Store, an identikit Caribbean/Continental/Asian foodstore, it was the dry-goods and groceries arm of the greengrocers opposite. There are still quite a few of this type of shop in Brixton but only one remaining in the Granville (A&N, opposite Ilia's/Dagons, which has its greengrocery arm on the corner site opposite Mama Lan).


----------



## Vibrant-Hubb (Oct 27, 2013)

It's all very well saying rich and poor live side by side in London, but it isn't a simple as that. There is a concerted effort of political policy to re-engineer London. Successive governments have not built social housing and have allowed huge sell-offs of estates to private developers. Benefits are being cut and this is causing terrible distress and hardship. (Did the benefits bill break the economy? No, not really. It was the bankers. Does it make sense to throw a disabled person out of an adapted home that cost thousands to adapt, because they have a box-room they use for storage? No.)

Prvate rents and house prices have soared - pushed up by city wages and lack of regulation to temper the buy-to-let free-for-all and rent levels. An influx of international wealthy have been encouraged by low property taxes to "buy-to-leave"" homes as investments that are not even let out. Street after street of homes in Belgravia sit empty with absurd gyms and pools unused. Buy-to-let and and buy-to-leave reach out all over London.

I'd have no issue seeing a champagne bar next to a greengrocer, if the dice weren't weighted. But currently they are, and it is obscene to weight the dice in favour of the already privileged.

(As an aside, I think the smug looking duo behind C+F must be uttely, uttely clueless about Brixton history and the fights for rights and against racism that went on here. They could have opened something mid-range and vaguely useful. But all this cupcake-isation is pampering for grown-up babies. Get over yourselves and do something to make the world better, arseholes).


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 27, 2013)

Vibrant-Hubb said:


> I
> 
> Prvate rents and house prices have soared - pushed up by city wages and lack of regulation to temper the buy-to-let free-for-all and rent levels. An influx of international wealthy have been encouraged by low property taxes to "buy-to-leave"" homes as investments that are not even let out. Street after street of homes in Belgravia sit empty with absurd gyms and pools unused. Buy-to-let and and buy-to-leave reach out all over London.


Yep. The housing boom is fuelled from the top by the international super-rich and the bottom by various govt first-time-buyers schemes. Rising housing costs reinforce inequality. And the knock-on of the empty homes in Belgravia is that city-types cannot afford to live there any more and are moving to the likes of Brixton instead (not just Brixton - the same thing is happening in Hackney, too). 

I agree with you about the owners of C&F. They could have opened something with a range of things on offer, and tbh anyone who thinks it's great to push fois gras is a bit of a twat in my book. They are not as classy as they think they are.


----------



## fredfelt (Oct 27, 2013)

Gramsci said:


> Does Federation coffee get its coffee "Fair Trade"? Checked there website and it does not say that.
> 
> Just because a shop sells high quality goods like coffee does not mean that they are Fair Trade.
> 
> Starbucks are big conglomerate and a lot of there coffee is Fair Trade.



I've not idea about where Federation gets its coffee.

The point I was trying to make was the difference between mass produced, often low quality commodities from tax efficient global conglomerates vs small independent producers.

Obviously for many the only products which are in their price range are low cost mass produced products.  However at what expense?

A corporation must be globally competitive.  Production lines are put in place, jobs de-skilled, materials are sourced at the lowest possible cost from another faceless corporation who's in the same global race to the bottom with no room for inefficiencies.

Where as in my ideal world I'm thinking of a low volume cheese producer in rural France which provides a decent living to people in the community which it operates.  Its supply network is local.  Their focus on quality of product requires skilled workers.  It respects the livestock which it relies upon.  It pays it taxes locally and is in it for the long term.

When bemoaning C&F about and their exclusive prices it's easy to overlook that small, high quality businesses often provide skilled and meaningful jobs - the type of jobs that low price global operators operating in a neo-liberal economy have been very successful at stripping away. 

It's sad that so many skilled jobs have been lost to globalisation that high quality produce increasingly seems to be only accessible to the wealthy.  There's a systematic failure - and I think it's unfair to blame the results of that failure on high quality producers and retailers.


----------



## Hollis (Oct 27, 2013)

The champagne bars that've opened up on the main railway stations platforms are quite interesting to observe.. Now if I wanted to engage in an ostentations display of how 'well-to-do' i was I think i'd head down to Searcys Champagne bar at Paddington.  Quite a phenomema really - very 1980s.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 27, 2013)

fredfelt said:


> I've not idea about where Federation gets its coffee.
> 
> The point I was trying to make was the difference between mass produced, often low quality commodities from tax efficient global conglomerates vs small independent producers.
> 
> ...



According to the Fair Trade website those who can use the logo must follow it 10 principles.

Which is



> *Principle One: Creating Opportunities for Economically Disadvantaged Producers*
> Poverty reduction through trade forms a key part of the organization's aims. The organization supports marginalized small producers, whether these are independent family businesses, or grouped in associations or co-operatives. It seeks to enable them to move from income insecurity and poverty to economic self-sufficiency and ownership. The organization has a plan of action to carry this out.



So whatever business that has the logo , big or small, must support small producers.


----------



## TruXta (Oct 27, 2013)

Gramsci said:


> According to the Fair Trade website those who can use the logo must follow it 10 principles.
> 
> Which is
> 
> ...


I've seen some research saying that Fair Trade deals have actually lowered wages in some sectors in some countries - will try and dig that up. Not sure if it was to do with coffee or other commodity.

e2a - found it http://www.oxfamblogs.org/fp2p/?p=15625


----------



## Ms T (Oct 27, 2013)

isvicthere? said:


> Last time I went in Federation, it was cheaper than mega-chain Caffe Nero.


 
Last time I went, a small latte cost £2.50, which is more expensive that Caffe Nero.  And that was some time ago now.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 27, 2013)

TruXta said:


> I've seen some research saying that Fair Trade deals have actually lowered wages in some sectors in some countries - will try and dig that up. Not sure if it was to do with coffee or other commodity.
> 
> e2a - found it http://www.oxfamblogs.org/fp2p/?p=15625



An interesting read. After fredfelt  posts looked at this a bit more. 

I notice that small farmers who benefit from Fairtrade might employ casual labour at low wages. 

As I said in previous post C&F marketing is that they present themselves as "small is beautiful". The assumption being that compared to large business they are somehow better. In practise they are marketing high end niche product. 

As for Fairtrade here is a good article. The writer get to the point that Fairtrade is not about preserving "authentic" culture but about helping to overcome development problems in countries that historically been subject to imperialism ( he does not use that word but that is what it is) and have been held back in developing there countries.


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## SarfLondoner (Oct 27, 2013)

If C&f continue to grow and open more branches as i would imagine is the aim.The "small is beautiful" ethos will soon go.


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## Chilavert (Oct 27, 2013)

Hollis said:


> The champagne bars that've opened up on the main railway stations platforms are quite interesting to observe.. Now if I wanted to engage in an ostentations display of how 'well-to-do' i was I think i'd head down to Searcys Champagne bar at Paddington.  Quite a phenomema really - very 1980s.


I went to the champagne bar at St Pancras a few years ago before the (now ex) girlfriend and I got the Eurostar; 'twas a good way to start the weekend. 

For me that's the type of occasion (and location) for a glass of champers, not Brixton market.


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## Mr Bim of Bar (Oct 27, 2013)

Oh the markets too DOWNMARKET for champers is it ?


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## isvicthere? (Oct 28, 2013)

Mr Bim of Bar said:


> Oh the markets too DOWNMARKET for champers is it ?



Forward to point, please.


----------



## T & P (Oct 28, 2013)

.


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## T & P (Oct 28, 2013)

Mr Bim of Bar said:


> Oh the markets too DOWNMARKET for champers is it ?


It certainly doesn't quite cut the mustard for afternoon tea, compared with other establishments offering it: http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...-in-brixton-soon.313457/page-21#post-12613095


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## Mr Bim of Bar (Oct 28, 2013)

T & P said:


> It certainly doesn't quite cut the mustard for afternoon tea, compared with other establishments offering it: http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...-in-brixton-soon.313457/page-21#post-12613095


It's just a fizzy wine, you can drink it on the loo if you want


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## Rushy (Oct 29, 2013)

If you like your bubbles cold, BV in winter is the perfect place to drink it. No chance of your glass warming up. Your fingers and toes might go numb though.


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## Mr Bim of Bar (Oct 30, 2013)

Rushy said:


> If you like your bubbles cold, BV in winter is the perfect place to drink it. No chance of your glass warming up. Your fingers and toes might go numb though.


Now that is true, had a meal there last winter with an overcoat and a scarf wrapped round me, NOT ENJOYABLE, won't be going back this time of year unless they have an open log fire


----------



## Rushy (Oct 30, 2013)

Mr Bim of Bar said:


> Now that is true, had a meal there last winter with an overcoat and a scarf wrapped round me, NOT ENJOYABLE, won't be going back this time of year unless they have an open log fire


Some of the places do have log fires - Cornercopia, maybe the ex Bella Pasta?


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## editor (Oct 30, 2013)

What kind of mug spends a hefty chunk of wedge just to sit out in the cold or try to eat with shivering hands and a blanket covering their legs? It's not my idea of fun.


----------



## pesh (Oct 30, 2013)

these people
http://www.belowzerolondon.com/


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 31, 2013)

pesh said:


> these people
> http://www.belowzerolondon.com/



I've been there. The Vodka had a very warming effect if I recall. Not that I recall.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 31, 2013)

editor said:


> What kind of mug spends a hefty chunk of wedge just to sit out in the cold or try to eat with shivering hands and a blanket covering their legs? It's not my idea of fun.



Smokers


----------



## editor (Oct 31, 2013)

Badgers said:


> Smokers


Well, yes. And I've seen the fun they have


----------



## Badgers (Oct 31, 2013)

editor said:


> Well, yes. And I've seen the fun they have



cough cough


----------



## Mr Bim of Bar (Oct 31, 2013)

editor said:


> What kind of mug spends a hefty chunk of wedge just to sit out in the cold or try to eat with shivering hands and a blanket covering their legs? It's not my idea of fun.


Err that would me, but I was dating a nice maiden


----------



## Mr Bim of Bar (Oct 31, 2013)

Mr Bim of Bar said:


> Err that would me, but I was dating a nice maiden


Oops ice maiden


----------



## urbanspaceman (Oct 31, 2013)

Two restaurants, two stories: Champagne et Fromage and Veranda.

Corks fly in one place and bullets in the other. Which do you think does more damage to the community ?


----------



## TruXta (Oct 31, 2013)

urbanspaceman said:


> Two restaurants, two stories: Champagne et Fromage and Veranda.
> 
> Corks fly in one place and bullets in the other. Which do you think does more damage to the community ?


How long did it take you to come up with that bullshit comparison? And who's been valorising Veranda? None, that's who.


----------



## urbanspaceman (Oct 31, 2013)

About 2 or 3 minutes. I'm merely surprised at the tidal wave of comment about C&F, while there's so little interest about a man_ actually being shot_ at Veranda. Not sure about your valorising point - I don't think I suggested that anyone was valorising Veranda.


----------



## ddraig (Oct 31, 2013)

urbanspaceman said:


> About 2 or 3 minutes. I'm merely surprised at the tidal wave of comment about C&F, while there's so little interest about a man_ actually being shot_ at Veranda. Not sure about your valorising point - I don't think I suggested that anyone was valorising Veranda.


why not start a thread on it then?
or even post on the existing one, which you haven't

still don't get why so many people seek to defend C+F like it is a slur on themselves, their lifestyle and choices etc


----------



## Manter (Oct 31, 2013)

urbanspaceman said:


> About 2 or 3 minutes. I'm merely surprised at the tidal wave of comment about C&F, while there's so little interest about a man_ actually being shot_ at Veranda. Not sure about your valorising point - I don't think I suggested that anyone was valorising Veranda.


I think if you read the thread on Veranda it is pretty short because there is no debate: people getting shot is a bad thing, venues refusing to engage with the police after people have got shot is pretty stupid, they've lost their licence for now, it'll be interesting to see what happens next. There's not been much debate on the thread because it's pretty cut and dried, and the thread is pretty much just information. I don't think it has much bearing on the C+F discussion (and as I've said up thread, my main issue with C+F is that it's such a bloody horrible combination- I'm neither pro nor rabidly anti)


----------



## rutabowa (Oct 31, 2013)

urbanspaceman said:


> Two restaurants, two stories: Champagne et Fromage and Veranda.
> 
> Corks fly in one place and bullets in the other. Which do you think does more damage to the community ?


CORKS 100% CORKS DO MORE DAMAGE THAN BULLETS THERE ARE STATISTICS


----------



## Winot (Oct 31, 2013)

Champagne doesn't get people tipsy; people get people tipsy.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 31, 2013)

urbanspaceman said:


> I'm merely surprised at the tidal wave of comment about C&F...


Try posting more, it'll pass


----------



## friendofdorothy (Oct 31, 2013)

T & P said:


> *ahem*




Stranglely Lidl was all out of Champagne and fizz for days after this.

I love fizz - but never with cheese! - but can't afford it much these days.

Last time I had Champers it was in Brixton on my Civil partneship day so we had to do something to celebrate - it was on special offer in the Albert and it was lovely (wouldn't have happened in Pat's day)


----------



## happyshopper (Oct 31, 2013)

friendofdorothy said:


> Stranglely Lidl was all out of Champagne and fizz for days after this.
> 
> I love fizz - but never with cheese! - but can't afford it much these days.
> 
> Last time I had Champers it was in Brixton on my Civil partneship day so we had to do something to celebrate - it was on special offer in the Albert and it was lovely (wouldn't have happened in Pat's day)



Lidl currently have Champagne at £12.99 a bottle.


----------



## salem (Feb 25, 2014)

So we must be 6 months or so down the line and the novelty will have worn off. 

I'm curious, what's the latest? Still open? Busy? A pillar of the community yet?

Has it opened the door to other 'luxury' stores?


----------



## gabi (Feb 25, 2014)

There were more luxurious places in there before and more have opened up since. Not quite sure why this place got singled out really.


----------



## editor (Feb 25, 2014)

gabi said:


> There were more luxurious places in there before and more have opened up since. Not quite sure why this place got singled out really.


What were these _extra luxurious_ places then? The reasons for Fromage being singled out have been explained at very great length by several posters in this thread.


----------



## editor (Feb 25, 2014)

salem said:


> So we must be 6 months or so down the line and the novelty will have worn off.
> 
> I'm curious, what's the latest? Still open? Busy? A pillar of the community yet?
> 
> Has it opened the door to other 'luxury' stores?


It's certainly played its part in attracting an entirely different clientèle to the market, especially on weekends where the demographics have shifted off the scale from its local market roots.


----------



## TruXta (Feb 25, 2014)

editor said:


> It's certainly played its part in attracting an entirely different clientèle to the market, especially on weekends where the demographics have shifted off the scale from its local market roots.


Without saying you're wrong or right, how do you pin this on Shit and Champers?


----------



## editor (Feb 25, 2014)

TruXta said:


> Without saying you're wrong or right, how do you pin this on Shit and Champers?


I'm not "pinning" it on them, but it seems fairly obvious that upmarket, Sunday supplement-friendly units like theirs have played a part in attracting a very different crowd.


----------



## TruXta (Feb 25, 2014)

editor said:


> I'm not "pinning" it on them, but it seems fairly obvious that upmarket, Sunday supplement-friendly units like theirs have played a part in attracting a very different crowd.


Without wanting to rehash old arguments - and the gods know we did many a loop on this topic - it's simply something I find interesting from a (wanker alert) observer's standpoint. We all agree that the demographic of Brixton has changed, we all agree that the shops have become more upmarket. What we don't agree on is what came first, or even if that question is a sensible one to ask. Hence my question. 

Anyway, you don't need to answer any of that.


----------



## editor (Feb 25, 2014)

TruXta said:


> Without wanting to rehash old arguments - and the gods know we did many a loop on this topic - it's simply something I find interesting from a (wanker alert) observer's standpoint. We all agree that the demographic of Brixton has changed, we all agree that the shops have become more upmarket. What we don't agree on is what came first, or even if that question is a sensible one to ask. Hence my question.


That path leads to Spacemakers' door. memespring  will tell you all about them. And some!


----------



## boohoo (Feb 25, 2014)

I do think that if Spacemaker's hadn't come along, the demographic change would have still happened because of the demand for housing and the good travel links. Where I live is full of new arrivals who are being pushed out into the suburbs, either as renters who can't afford the inner city or buyers who need a bit more space but can't get that in the area they were living in.


----------



## editor (Feb 25, 2014)

boohoo said:


> I do think that if Spacemaker's hadn't come along, the demographic change would have still happened because of the demand for housing and the good travel links. Where I live is full of new arrivals who are being pushed out into the suburbs, either as renters who can't afford the inner city or buyers who need a bit more space but can't get that in the area they were living in.


It may have, but the Spacemakers' policies certainly accelerated it in a particular direction.


----------



## boohoo (Feb 25, 2014)

editor said:


> It may have, but the Spacemakers' policies certainly accelerated it in a particular direction.



Spacemakers bought in the tourist element


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Feb 25, 2014)

TruXta said:


> Without wanting to rehash old arguments - and the gods know we did many a loop on this topic - it's simply something I find interesting from a (wanker alert) observer's standpoint. We all agree that the demographic of Brixton has changed, we all agree that the shops have become more upmarket. What we don't agree on is what came first, or even if that question is a sensible one to ask. Hence my question.
> 
> Anyway, you don't need to answer any of that.


 
I think the reason why it's so tricky is that there really is no single or clearly identifiable cause. It's caused by a huge number of individual decisions, and a lot of them are people behaving in what are really completely understandable ways (which is what causes a lot of the tension around the issue on these boards IMO.)

Given that though champagne and fromage seems as good a focal point for opposition as any and better than most.


----------



## TruXta (Feb 25, 2014)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> I think the reason why it's so tricky is that there really is no single or clearly identifiable cause. It's caused by a huge number of individual decisions, and a lot of them are people behaving in what are really completely understandable ways (which is what causes a lot of the tension around the issue on these boards IMO.)
> 
> Given that though champagne and fromage seems as good a focal point for opposition as any and better than most.


Yes and yes. Still interesting that the debate has tended to be, IMO, quite simplistic (and I'm as guilty as anyone on that score) by focussing on Bad Places that bring in Bad People, driving out Good Shops catering for Good People.


----------



## leanderman (Feb 25, 2014)

TruXta said:


> We all agree that the demographic of Brixton has changed.



I don't necessarily agree with this on a residential basis - because the people we see in Brixton Village may largely be tourists.


----------



## TruXta (Feb 25, 2014)

leanderman said:


> I don't necessarily agree with this on a residential basis - because the people we see in Brixton Village may largely be tourists.


Houseprices would be a decent indicator.


----------



## leanderman (Feb 25, 2014)

TruXta said:


> Houseprices would be a decent indicator.



Up everywhere


----------



## TruXta (Feb 25, 2014)

leanderman said:


> Up everywhere


But not equally so.


----------



## leanderman (Feb 25, 2014)

True. 

But Lambeth does not stand out ahead of places such as Hackney or Hammersmith and Fulham let alone 'prime' central areas.

As for Brixton, it seems that Clapham, Balham, Herne Hill, Dulwich etc have all easily maintained their edge.


----------



## SarfLondoner (Feb 25, 2014)

leanderman said:


> I don't necessarily agree with this on a residential basis - because the people we see in Brixton Village may largely be tourists.


Nearly all of where i live has been swamped with yuppies/hipsters and out of towners. There are nearly no working class/black/irish left.They have been priced out and all that replaces them are the above mentioned. In my opinion Brixton and other parts of south london have changed so quickly it's hard to keep up with.


----------



## TruXta (Feb 25, 2014)

leanderman said:


> True.
> 
> But Lambeth does not stand out ahead of places such as Hackney or Hammersmith and Fulham let alone 'prime' central areas.
> 
> As for Brixton, it seems that Clapham, Balham, Herne Hill, Dulwich etc have all easily maintained their edge.


None of that is an argument against the shift in demographics in Brixton.


----------



## teuchter (Feb 25, 2014)

SarfLondoner said:


> Nearly all of where i live has been swamped with yuppies/hipsters and out of towners. There are nearly no working class/black/irish left.They have been priced out and all that replaces them are the above mentioned. In my opinion Brixton and other parts of south london have changed so quickly it's hard to keep up with.


What does "out of towners" mean?


----------



## SarfLondoner (Feb 25, 2014)

teuchter said:


> What does "out of towners" mean?


People not from London town.


----------



## leanderman (Feb 25, 2014)

TruXta said:


> None of that is an argument against the shift in demographics in Brixton.



I don't see any demographic shift in my road.


----------



## teuchter (Feb 25, 2014)

SarfLondoner said:


> People not from London town.


London wouldn't be London without such people.


----------



## SarfLondoner (Feb 25, 2014)

teuchter said:


> London wouldn't be London without such people.


London wouldn't be London without Londoners.


----------



## Belushi (Feb 25, 2014)

SarfLondoner said:


> London wouldn't be London without Londoners.



Londoners are people who live in London.


----------



## TruXta (Feb 25, 2014)

leanderman said:


> I don't see any demographic shift in my road.


We were on about Brixton rather than just your road iirc.


----------



## SarfLondoner (Feb 25, 2014)

Belushi said:


> Londoners are people who live in London.


I was born in London therefore im a Londoner. If i move to Liverpool that doesn't make me a Liverpudlian.


----------



## TruXta (Feb 25, 2014)

SarfLondoner said:


> I was born in London therefore im a Londoner. If i move to Liverpool that doesn't make me a Liverpudlian.


If you were born in London then moved to Liverpool when you were say 20, live there until you die of old age, where are you from? It's not as simple as you make out.


----------



## Belushi (Feb 25, 2014)

TruXta said:


> If you were born in London then moved to Liverpool when you were say 20, live there until you die of old age, where are you from? It's not as simple as you make out.



I was born in Australia but can hardly remember the place, yet if we follow SarfLondoner's logic I can never be a Brit.


----------



## SarfLondoner (Feb 25, 2014)

My Birth certificate says i was born in London that will do for me, but i get your point.


----------



## boohoo (Feb 25, 2014)

SarfLondoner said:


> Nearly all of where i live has been swamped with yuppies/hipsters and out of towners. There are nearly no working class/black/irish left.They have been priced out and all that replaces them are the above mentioned. In my opinion Brixton and other parts of south london have changed so quickly it's hard to keep up with.



What area do you live in? Presumably the majority of those who have moved out where home owners or private renters? 

The posh streets around where my mum lives hasn't seen huge changes and I can't image certain parts of Stockwell Park estate have. However the huge amount of new builds are bringing in new residents and the revamping of parts of Stockwell Park Estate and Wayland house will have undoubtedly moved out council tenants- it would be interesting to know how many will return - historically I get the impression that post redevelopment, a good percentage of ex-residents don't return.


----------



## Manter (Feb 25, 2014)

SarfLondoner said:


> I was born in London therefore im a Londoner. If i move to Liverpool that doesn't make me a Liverpudlian.


I consider myself a londoner, but I wasn't born in London


----------



## SarfLondoner (Feb 25, 2014)

Belushi said:


> I was born in Australia but can hardly remember the place, yet if we follow SarfLondoner's logic I can never be a Brit.


Not the point. You can become a British citizen and be British, but in my opinion you can only be Londoner,Brummie and so on if you come from there.


----------



## Belushi (Feb 25, 2014)

SarfLondoner said:


> Not the point. You can become a British citizen and be British, but in my opinion you can only be Londoner,Brummie and so on if you come from there.



Why? That makes no sense.


----------



## spanglechick (Feb 25, 2014)

aren't the traditional communities of brixton by definition often 'out of towners'?


----------



## SarfLondoner (Feb 25, 2014)

boohoo said:


> What area do you live in? Presumably the majority of those who have moved out where home owners or private renters?
> 
> The posh streets around where my mum lives hasn't seen huge changes and I can't image certain parts of Stockwell Park estate have. However the huge amount of new builds are bringing in new residents and the revamping of parts of Stockwell Park Estate and Wayland house will have undoubtedly moved out council tenants- it would be interesting to know how many will return - historically I get the impression that post redevelopment, a good percentage of ex-residents don't return.


Ferndale road Brixton.


----------



## SarfLondoner (Feb 25, 2014)

Belushi said:


> Why? That makes no sense.


Fair enough.


----------



## teuchter (Feb 25, 2014)

I wasn't born in London but consider myself a Londoner.


----------



## boohoo (Feb 25, 2014)

SarfLondoner said:


> Ferndale road Brixton.


That quite a long road- is it full of renters being priced out then?


----------



## boohoo (Feb 25, 2014)

teuchter said:


> I wasn't born in London but consider myself a Londoner.


Something else we can fight about! Forget the class debate, who is REAL LONDON?


----------



## Dexter Deadwood (Feb 25, 2014)

boohoo said:


> What area do you live in? Presumably the majority of those who have moved out where home owners or private renters?
> 
> The posh streets around where my mum lives hasn't seen huge changes and I can't image certain parts of Stockwell Park estate have. However the huge amount of new builds are bringing in new residents and the revamping of parts of Stockwell Park Estate and *Wayland house* will have undoubtedly moved out council tenants- it would be interesting to know how many will return - historically I get the impression that post redevelopment, a good percentage of ex-residents don't return.



If Wayland House becomes posh i will have lived through change thought unimaginable even by fantasists.


----------



## SarfLondoner (Feb 25, 2014)

teuchter said:


> I wasn't born in London but consider myself a Londoner.


Congratulations ! Its a great place to come from and to come to.


----------



## cuppa tee (Feb 25, 2014)

Dexter Deadwood said:


> If Wayland House becomes posh i will have lived through change thought unimaginable even by fantasists.


it's been demolished and is slowly rising again it's own footprint, I think as part of The Park redevelopment


----------



## SarfLondoner (Feb 25, 2014)

boohoo said:


> That quite a long road- is it full of renters being priced out then?


Yes, Most of the flats/Houses are being bought up.


----------



## leanderman (Feb 25, 2014)

TruXta said:


> We were on about Brixton rather than just your road iirc.



It's valuable residential data - rather than just traffic around Brixton Village on a Saturday.


----------



## boohoo (Feb 25, 2014)

Dexter Deadwood said:


> If Wayland House becomes posh i will have lived through change thought unimaginable even by fantasists.



well its been pulled down now and a bigger tower will go up. I'm not sure how many ex-residents will move in. I think Stockwell Park estate will become a place of sharp contrasts with the comfortably-off living next to council tenants.


----------



## Dexter Deadwood (Feb 25, 2014)

cuppa tee said:


> it's been demolished and is slowly rising again it's own footprint, I think as part of The Park redevelopment





boohoo said:


> well its been pulled down now and a bigger tower will go up. I'm not sure how many ex-residents will move in. I think Stockwell Park estate will become a place of sharp contrasts with the comfortably-off living next to council tenants.



Wow, it kind of needed knocking down thirty years ago. Must take a stroll along Robsart street during the week.


----------



## boohoo (Feb 25, 2014)

SarfLondoner said:


> Yes, Most of the flats/Houses are being bought up.



So the landlords are selling their properties? 



Dexter Deadwood said:


> Wow, it kind of needed knocking down thirty years ago. Must take a stroll along Robsart street during the week.



I got a few pics - I'll sort them out for you


----------



## T & P (Feb 25, 2014)

boohoo said:


> Something else we can fight about! Forget the class debate, who is REAL LONDON?


I was a Londonder before it became cool to be a Londoner.


----------



## boohoo (Feb 25, 2014)

T & P said:


> I was a Londonder before it became cool to be a Londoner.



I was a sarf Londoner before it was cool to be a sarf Londoner.


----------



## SarfLondoner (Feb 25, 2014)

boohoo said:


> So the landlords are selling their properties?
> I dont know who owns them (neither do i care) but the for sale signs are clearly visible as is the new wave of people moving in.
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## SarfLondoner (Feb 25, 2014)

boohoo said:


> I was a sarf Londoner before it was cool to be a sarf Londoner.


So was i.


----------



## teuchter (Feb 25, 2014)

My great grandad came to London before Brixton was even built. Maybe.


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## boohoo (Feb 25, 2014)

Coming soon - bland new apartments for people stretching their budget to move into trendy Brixton.


----------



## SarfLondoner (Feb 25, 2014)

boohoo said:


> View attachment 49202
> 
> Coming soon - bland new apartments for people stretching their budget to move into trendy Brixton.



Is Robsart street Classed as Brixton or Stockwell ?


----------



## cuppa tee (Feb 25, 2014)

boohoo said:


> View attachment 49202
> 
> Coming soon - bland new apartments for people stretching their budget to move into trendy Brixton.


that is virtually indistinguishable from the Oval Quarter, the only difference is the name on the hoarding....


----------



## boohoo (Feb 25, 2014)

SarfLondoner said:


> Is Robsart street Classed as Brixton or Stockwell ?


Well, in the past, the oval end of Brixton road has been called North Brixton. The boundaries of Brixton are a little unclear. Going by earlier maps, the area near Stockwell Green is original Stockwell and older than Brixton. However the Old white horse is referred to as being in Brixton rather than Stockwell. And Stockwell now seems to stretch down to Larkhall Park.


----------



## Ms T (Feb 25, 2014)

leanderman said:


> I don't see any demographic shift in my road.



Me neither.


----------



## SarfLondoner (Feb 25, 2014)

boohoo said:


> Well, in the past, the oval end of Brixton road has been called North Brixton. The boundaries of Brixton are a little unclear. Going by earlier maps, the area near Stockwell Green is original Stockwell and older than Brixton. However the Old white horse is referred to as being in Brixton rather than Stockwell. And Stockwell now seems to stretch down to Larkhall Park.


A right can of worms then.


----------



## han (Feb 25, 2014)

Well, you may be interested to know that gentrification hasn't reached our bit of Brixton Hill and is unlikely to for quite some time. New Park Rd and the surrounding areas are a diverse mix of Somali, Irish, working class, middle class, Jamaican, British, West African, Polish etc. I think that distance from tubes/trains plays a large part in this.


----------



## han (Feb 25, 2014)

boohoo said:
			
		

> Coming soon - bland new apartments for people stretching their budget to move into trendy Brixton.



That's by the Grosvenor isn't it? *sob*


----------



## lang rabbie (Feb 25, 2014)

han said:


> Well, you may be interested to know that gentrification hasn't reached our bit of Brixton Hill and is unlikely to for quite some time. New Park Rd and the surrounding areas are a diverse mix of Somali, Irish, working class, middle class, Jamaican, British, West African, Polish etc. I think that distance from tubes/trains plays a large part in this.



Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, you have seen for yourselves the proliferation of _eau de nil_ paint jobs in the roads surrouding New Park Rd, yet despite this *obvious* evidence of guilt, the defendent continues to protest their innocence of the abominable crime of gentrification.


----------



## Anna Borrel (May 31, 2014)

Hello, 
I am a french journalist, who happen to be working in London this week, and I am super interested in knowing more about the rise against gentrification in Brixton. I'd be happy to meet people who participated to the demonstration you made last year and/or who are active in that community. Best best, Anna


----------



## Sirena (May 31, 2014)

han said:


> Well, you may be interested to know that gentrification hasn't reached our bit of Brixton Hill and is unlikely to for quite some time. New Park Rd and the surrounding areas are a diverse mix of Somali, Irish, working class, middle class, Jamaican, British, West African, Polish etc. I think that distance from tubes/trains plays a large part in this.


One street I noticed full of posh white kids was Ferndale Road...


----------



## ddraig (May 31, 2014)

Anna Borrel said:


> Hello,
> I am a french journalist, who happen to be working in London this week, and I am super interested in knowing more about the rise against gentrification in Brixton. I'd be happy to meet people who participated to the demonstration you made last year and/or who are active in that community. Best best, Anna


who is it for? what slant will you be putting on it? will you pay people to talk to you?
good luck on here


----------



## teuchter (May 31, 2014)

And will she answer strings of belligerent questioning from narky types who don't even live in Brixton?


----------



## editor (May 31, 2014)

teuchter said:


> And will she answer strings of belligerent questioning from narky types who don't even live in Brixton?


I doubt if her questions will be anywhere near as belligerent as your response.


----------



## ddraig (May 31, 2014)

teuchter said:


> And will she answer strings of belligerent questioning from narky types who don't even live in Brixton?


what's belligerent about any of those questions boss?


----------



## teuchter (May 31, 2014)

Is it normal for journalists to pay interviewees?


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (May 31, 2014)

teuchter said:


> Is it normal for journalists to pay interviewees?



It's not no. Maybe for something like a big feature specifically about them, I don't know, but they not for something like this.


----------



## teuchter (May 31, 2014)

ddraig said:


> what's belligerent about any of those questions boss?


The implication that she might be intending not to pay people where she should, mainly.


----------



## teuchter (May 31, 2014)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> It's not no. Maybe for something like a big feature specifically about them, I don't know, but they not for something like this.


That's what I thought.


----------



## ddraig (May 31, 2014)

it was a question boss


----------



## teuchter (May 31, 2014)

Didn't say it wasn't.


----------



## ddraig (May 31, 2014)

the implication is all in your mind


----------



## Anna Borrel (Jun 2, 2014)

Hello, Not sure if this debate is humoristic or not, so sorry if I answer 1st degree : but no, journalists don't pay for interviews (fortunately, especially considering I am broke). People talk to me only if they think it worth spending time explaining their point of vue and convictions, so I can write about it in the newspapers. I just thought that the gentrification process happens in a lot of cities and it is quite new people react, so it's interesting and this debate in your community could inspire people elsewhere in the world. I got a facebook page with my name, I am easy to contact. Apologies for my -sometimes strange - english writing. Best, Anna Borrel


----------



## ddraig (Jun 2, 2014)

no probs, teuchter will be happy to help, he is the man in the dark hood holding the sign in this picture
not as angry as he looks here! no need to pay him either, a biscuit will do 
good luck AB


----------



## Dexter Deadwood (Jun 2, 2014)

Anna Borrel said:


> Hello, Not sure if this debate is humoristic or not, so sorry if I answer 1st degree : but no, journalists don't pay for interviews (fortunately, especially considering I am broke). People talk to me only if they think it worth spending time explaining their point of vue and convictions, so I can write about it in the newspapers. I just thought that the gentrification process happens in a lot of cities and it is quite new people react, so it's interesting and this debate in your community could inspire people elsewhere in the world. I got a facebook page with my name, I am easy to contact. Apologies for my -sometimes strange - english writing. Best, Anna Borrel



You could just read the Board, the Brixton forum in particular. There are many threads that would give you a flavour of what you are looking for; that would be better than expecting information to be served up on a plate for you.


----------



## teuchter (Jun 2, 2014)

You'd think that people genuinely interested in getting their views to a wider audience might be a bit more friendly to the journalist.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 2, 2014)

Anna Borrel said:


> Hello, Not sure if this debate is humoristic or not, so sorry if I answer 1st degree : but no, journalists don't pay for interviews (fortunately, especially considering I am broke). People talk to me only if they think it worth spending time explaining their point of vue and convictions, so I can write about it in the newspapers. I just thought that the gentrification process happens in a lot of cities and it is quite new people react, so it's interesting and this debate in your community could inspire people elsewhere in the world. I got a facebook page with my name, I am easy to contact. Apologies for my -sometimes strange - english writing. Best, Anna Borrel


i got paid £10 for a short interview with german tv about 13 years ago.


----------



## ddraig (Jun 2, 2014)

teuchter said:


> You'd think that people genuinely interested in getting their views to a wider audience might be a bit more friendly to the journalist.


go on then, as the "spokesperson" and frontline activist


----------



## Mr Retro (Jun 2, 2014)

Dexter Deadwood said:


> You could just read the Board, the Brixton forum in particular. There are many threads that would give you a flavour of what you are looking for; that would be better than expecting information to be served up on a plate for you.


I think you've got this assways. How is a journalist asking people if they want to be interviewed expecting information on a plate? Isn't interviewing people and asking them questions part of the research that goes into an article? 

Just reading the boards and forming an opinion seems lazy journalism to me. Many have done it in the past just lifting quotes from here. I might be wrong but it seems like this person is willing to do much more work than that and should be commended.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 2, 2014)

Mr Retro said:


> I think you've got this assways. How is a journalist asking people if they want to be interviewed expecting information on a plate? Isn't interviewing people and asking them questions part of the research that goes into an article?
> 
> Just reading the boards and forming an opinion seems lazy journalism to me. Many have done it in the past just lifting quotes from here. I might be wrong but it seems like this person is willing to do much more work than that and should be commended.


that'll be in laurie penny's piece within a week


----------



## Dexter Deadwood (Jun 2, 2014)

Mr Retro said:


> I think you've got this assways. How is a journalist asking people if they want to be interviewed expecting information on a plate? Isn't interviewing people and asking them questions part of the research that goes into an article?
> 
> Just *reading the boards and forming an opinion* seems lazy journalism to me. Many have done it in the past just lifting quotes from here. I might be wrong but it seems like this person is willing to do much more work than that and should be commended.



It ought to be the first thing they do and it looks like they have not bothered.


----------



## Mr Retro (Jun 2, 2014)

Dexter Deadwood said:


> It ought to be the first thing they do and it looks like they have not bothered.


But that's not what you said at all in the original post, you said they should just read the board


----------



## Dexter Deadwood (Jun 2, 2014)

Mr Retro said:


> But that's not what you said at all in the original post, you said they should just read the board


----------



## Badgers (Jun 25, 2014)

Anyone know how they are getting on now the dust has settled?


----------



## marty21 (Jun 25, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> i got paid £10 for a short interview with german tv about 13 years ago.


 should have paid you nine 

I thank you

I'm here all week


----------



## marty21 (Jun 25, 2014)

Badgers  still on for Champagne and Fromage next week?


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 25, 2014)

Badgers said:


> Anyone know how they are getting on now the dust has settled?




they closed down cos Off The Cuff nicked all thier customers


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 25, 2014)

Badgers said:


> Anyone know how they are getting on now the dust has settled?


that's not dust, it's yuppie marching powder


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 25, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> they closed down cos Off The Cuff nicked all thier customers


is it now 'off the wrist'?


----------



## T & P (Jun 25, 2014)

Imagine how many more pages this epic thread would be if the owners of C&F had tried to engage with the U75 community, like the poor sods who run OTC did...


----------



## Winot (Jun 25, 2014)

T & P said:


> Imagine how many more pages this epic thread would be if the owners of C&F had tried to engage with the U75 community, like the poor sods who run OTC did...



Yes, they did well to keep their heads down.


----------



## Mr Retro (Jun 25, 2014)

When I went to check it out a few months back when I was back visiting Brixton I was disappointed to see how ordinary it looked. I was expecting it to look like Mordor or Castle Greyskull or one of those paintings of hell from my catholic childhood.


----------



## Badgers (Jun 25, 2014)

Mr Retro said:


> When I went to check it out a few months back when I was back visiting Brixton I was disappointed to see how ordinary it looked. I was expecting it to look like Mordor or Castle Greyskull or one of those paintings of hell from my catholic childhood.



Market Row earlier this week.....


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 25, 2014)

Castle Greyskull was where the goodies lived. He-man, Man-at-Arms. and Fist-o. What the fuck was Fist-o about?


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 25, 2014)

I think she-rah had her own castle. Possibly under an arch?


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jun 25, 2014)

Mr Retro said:


> When I went to check it out a few months back when I was back visiting Brixton I was disappointed to see how ordinary it looked. I was expecting it to look like Mordor or Castle Greyskull or one of those paintings of hell from my catholic childhood.


 
Then it would be full of sulky goths. Drinking champagne. 

I wonder how they'd take to someone asking for Champagne and Black?


----------



## ddraig (Jun 25, 2014)

"the finest hand grown and picked berries added in a magnificent muddle" if you please!


----------



## Mr Retro (Jun 25, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> Castle Greyskull was where the goodies lived. He-man, Man-at-Arms. and Fist-o. What the fuck was Fist-o about?


Don't know but I now have my costume for Amsterdam Pride this year. For this you have my thanks.


----------



## Belushi (Jun 25, 2014)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> I wonder how they'd take to someone asking for Champagne and Black?


 
"Kir Royale" to those in the know


----------



## Badgers (Jun 25, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> Castle Greyskull was where the goodies lived. He-man, Man-at-Arms. and Fist-o. What the fuck was Fist-o about?


----------



## Belushi (Jun 25, 2014)

I've seen him at Berghain.


----------



## Manter (Jun 25, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> Castle Greyskull was where the goodies lived. He-man, Man-at-Arms. and Fist-o. What the fuck was Fist-o about?


The only thing I've ever won (sob) was a complete set of snake men and snake lair


----------



## trabuquera (Jun 25, 2014)

Mr Retro said:


> When I went to check it out a few months back when I was back visiting Brixton I was disappointed to see how ordinary it looked. I was expecting it to look like Mordor or Castle Greyskull or one of those paintings of hell from my catholic childhood.



Nah, it looks more like Gormenghast these days...
 

srsly: C & F seems to have some living punters, and is occasionally very busy; but it's never packed right out or has people queuing. I can't figure out their business model at all; the overheads and value of the stock must be very high, so I am not sure the turnover can support them.


----------



## T & P (Jun 25, 2014)

Perhaps they get secret subsidies from Foxtons, as their very presence in Brixton is relevant to the estate agent's interests.


----------



## marty21 (Jun 27, 2014)

Badgers said:


>


been working out ?


----------



## editor (Jun 27, 2014)

Mr Retro said:


> When I went to check it out a few months back when I was back visiting Brixton I was disappointed to see how ordinary it looked. I was expecting it to look like Mordor or Castle Greyskull or one of those paintings of hell from my catholic childhood.


You really need to come on a weekend to enjoy the full Villaaaage Experience


----------



## Frances Lengel (Jun 27, 2014)

Badgers said:


>



The _full_ lubbock.


----------



## George & Bill (Jun 27, 2014)

Anna Borrel said:


> Hello, Not sure if this debate is humoristic or not, so sorry if I answer 1st degree : but no, journalists don't pay for interviews (fortunately, especially considering I am broke). People talk to me only if they think it worth spending time explaining their point of vue and convictions, so I can write about it in the newspapers. I just thought that the gentrification process happens in a lot of cities and it is quite new people react, so it's interesting and this debate in your community could inspire people elsewhere in the world. I got a facebook page with my name, I am easy to contact. Apologies for my -sometimes strange - english writing. Best, Anna Borrel





Dexter Deadwood said:


> You could just read the Board, the Brixton forum in particular. There are many threads that would give you a flavour of what you are looking for; that would be better than expecting information to be served up on a plate for you.





Dexter Deadwood said:


> It ought to be the first thing they do and it looks like they have not bothered.



Oh dear, what a cack-handed response. You seem like a relatively new poster with a hair-trigger for attempting to return the most stereotypically 'Urban' response to perceived oversights of board etiquette, but without the critical awareness to do so intelligently.

The hostility to journalists both in communities in general and on this community message board stems from journalists' frequent failure to adjust to the tone of the discourse they're entering. The classic example here would be something like 'Hi guys, I'm new here, seems like a great place to ask for tips about the latest edgy venues opening in Brixton' - i.e., an overture that totally overlooks the strong critique that exists here of a certain type of cultural tourism. On the contrary, this journalist clearly had already absorbed the tone of the debate going on - namely, the building unease at processes of gentrification - in order to pose the invitation that she did.

Your aim comes across not as to further intelligent discussion or to defend a community from outside exploitation, but rather, in an embarrisingly self-conscious way, to embody as fully as possible the set of neuroses you think are needed to 'belong' here.


----------



## Dexter Deadwood (Jun 27, 2014)

slowjoe said:


> Oh dear, what a cack-handed response. You seem like a relatively new poster with a hair-trigger for attempting to return the most stereotypically 'Urban' response to perceived oversights of board etiquette, but without the critical awareness to do so intelligently.
> 
> The hostility to journalists both in communities in general and on this community message board stems from journalists' frequent failure to adjust to the tone of the discourse they're entering. The classic example here would be something like 'Hi guys, I'm new here, seems like a great place to ask for tips about the latest edgy venues opening in Brixton' - i.e., an overture that totally overlooks the strong critique of a certain type of cultural tourism that exists here. On the contrary, this journalist clearly had already absorbed the tone of the debate going on - namely, the building unease at processes of gentrification - in order to pose the invitation that she did.
> 
> Your aim comes across not as to further intelligent discussion or to defend a community from outside exploitation, but rather, in an embarrisingly self-conscious way, to embody as fully as possible the set of neuroses you think are needed to 'belong' here.


----------



## George & Bill (Jun 28, 2014)

Well that settles that!


----------



## editor (Jul 31, 2015)

Press release just in from high end PR firm aimed at all of you in the " the trendy	foodie set"


> *Goats' Cheese Ice-Cream launches at Champagne + Fromage Brixton*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## isvicthere? (Jul 31, 2015)

editor said:


> Press release just in from high end PR firm aimed at all of you in the " the trendy	foodie set"



For the second time today: there really isn't enough facepalm!


----------



## George & Bill (Jul 31, 2015)

isvicthere? said:


> For the second time today: there really isn't enough facepalm!



The worst part is that it does actually sound fucking delicious, but this stuff is ruined by the cunts who sell it to us.


----------



## isvicthere? (Jul 31, 2015)

George & Bill said:


> The worst part is that it does actually sound fucking delicious.



Cheese-flavoured ice cream, served in olive oil? Are you sure?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 31, 2015)

George & Bill said:


> The worst part is that it does actually sound fucking delicious,


should have gone to tastesavers.


----------



## George & Bill (Jul 31, 2015)

isvicthere? said:


> Cheese-flavoured ice cream, served in olive oil? Are you sure?



It's goat cheese, which I can imagine going really well both in terms of texture and the salty-sweet flavour combination. I've had olive oil ice cream and it was superb.


----------



## uk benzo (Jul 31, 2015)

George & Bill said:


> It's goat cheese, which I can imagine going really well both in terms of texture and the salty-sweet flavour combination. I've had olive oil ice cream and it was superb.



Nothing beats Iceland's raspberry ripple.


----------



## George & Bill (Jul 31, 2015)

uk benzo said:


> Nothing beats Iceland's raspberry ripple.



Not it. Normally got for Mars/Snickers or own-brand cornettos if I'm in there.


----------



## Manter (Jul 31, 2015)

I've had goat's cheese ice cream- at borough market- and it was spectacularly, jaw-droppingly revolting.


----------



## George & Bill (Jul 31, 2015)

Manter said:


> I've had goat's cheese ice cream- at borough market- and it was spectacularly, jaw-droppingly revolting.



Of course, a given concept could be executed well or badly, and that's before we account for the vagaries of taste and opinion. The wider point I'm making is that for us to despise C&F on a cultural and political level should not depend on the badness of their culinary offering.


----------



## killer b (Jul 31, 2015)

I'd eat that. it sounds lush.


----------



## sparkybird (Aug 1, 2015)

I've eaten cheese ice cream in Mexico. It was delicious! Tiny little chunks of cheese in the ice cream. ....


----------



## Johnny Doe (Mar 30, 2021)

Has this placed survived CoVID? Dunno what made me think of it, might have been seeing the word 'jaunty' somewhere


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## happyshopper (Mar 30, 2021)

sparkybird said:


> I've eaten cheese ice cream in Mexico. It was delicious! Tiny little chunks of cheese in the ice cream. ....


Gorgonzola ice cream in Bologna.


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## Numbers (Mar 30, 2021)

Cheddar and Vanilla in Newham, lovely.


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## moochedit (Mar 30, 2021)

Harry Smiles said:


> Has this placed survived CoVID? Dunno what made me think of it, might have been seeing the word 'jaunty' somewhere



A quick google says they reopen on april 12th. Aren't you lucky!


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## oryx (Mar 30, 2021)

I swear I saw one in (mostly closed) Greenwich the other day.

And yes, on looking at their website (I'm fairly time-rich these days) it appears they are not only a chain, but have renamed the Brixton one 'Cheese and Fizz'.


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## ash (Mar 30, 2021)

There’s one in Covent Garden too I think


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## editor (Mar 31, 2021)

Harry Smiles said:


> Has this placed survived CoVID? Dunno what made me think of it, might have been seeing the word 'jaunty' somewhere


Yes, it's still there. Unfortunately.


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## Leighsw2 (Mar 31, 2021)

Went there with my niece and her boyfriend a few years ago. Good service and the champagne was OK. Nice cheese. A bit pricey!


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## Leighsw2 (Mar 31, 2021)

So the next time she came to visit, I provided my own champagne and cheese. It was a bit cheaper.


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## cuppa tee (Apr 4, 2021)

Harry Smiles said:


> Has this placed survived CoVID? Dunno what made me think of it, might have been seeing the word 'jaunty' somewhere



...think “jaunty” was associated more with Off the Cuff and their hats.


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## ska invita (Apr 4, 2021)

oryx said:


> I swear I saw one in (mostly closed) Greenwich the other day.
> 
> And yes, on looking at their website (I'm fairly time-rich these days) it appears they are not only a chain, but have renamed the Brixton one 'Cheese and Fizz'.


How proley. Near me we have Burgers and Bubbles. Covid has put it out of its misery


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## Johnny Doe (Apr 4, 2021)

cuppa tee said:


> ...think “jaunty” was associated more with Off the Cuff and their hats.


I think you've correctly spotted me conflating the two


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## cuppa tee (Apr 5, 2021)

Harry Smiles said:


> I think you've correctly spotted me conflating the two



....both caused outrage, think OTC redeemed itself for a while pre covid.


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## Edie (Apr 5, 2021)

Harry Smiles said:


> Has this placed survived CoVID? Dunno what made me think of it, might have been seeing the word 'jaunty' somewhere


Oh god I remember reading about them and thinking they were in every way peak London  Cheese and Fizz just makes me want to stab them in the face whilst genuinely laughing


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## JuanTwoThree (Apr 5, 2021)

Sound like a pair of Louisiana Cajun detectives: all gators and airboats.


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## Johnny Doe (Apr 6, 2021)

JuanTwoThree said:


> Sound like a pair of Louisiana Cajun detectives: all gators and airboats.


I'd imagine they don't play by the rules, but they get results!


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## marty21 (Apr 12, 2021)

Times Radio is doing a live broadcast from Cheese & Fizz right now! 😆 John Pienaar is waiting for the urban regulars to come and have a chat.


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## editor (Apr 12, 2021)

marty21 said:


> Times Radio is doing a live broadcast from Cheese & Fizz right now! 😆 John Pienaar is waiting for the urban regulars to come and have a chat.


#hardcorebrixton


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## Pickman's model (Apr 12, 2021)

editor said:


> Yes, it's still there. Unfortunately.


it'll always be there. in the dim and distant future they will share the planet with the cockroaches


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## Ol Nick (Apr 12, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> it'll always be there. in the dim and distant future they will share the planet with the cockroaches


We should be eating them within a couple of years.


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