# Can an employer really claw back qualification costs?



## cliche guevara (Jul 17, 2013)

I might be about to hand my notice in at work, and have noticed that my "education contract" for some qualifications I recently took states that if I leave the company within two years of completion they will deduct the amount paid from my last paycheck. This is likely to be all of my final paycheck, if not a bit more. Can they actually do this? I'm a bit worried about it as I have absolutely zero savings and am really living month to month at the minute.

In my favour, I was promised "adequate compensation" several months back for taking on additional responsibilities above my role, which have never materialised despite me chasing several times. This was never formally recorded though. Also I put in a dick load of hours beyond my contract, but again I think that as I'm salaried they could just laugh that off?


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## veracity (Jul 17, 2013)

I had to deal with this from the employer's perspective recently, putting training agreements in place for staff joining a new company. 

Our HR consultant advised that, in order for the employer to legitimately recoup training/qualification costs, they must clearly demonstrate that the training cost the company a quantifiable amount, and that the training or qualification must relate to transferable skills, i.e. that employee benefited by enhancing their employment prospects. The agreement to recoup costs must be fully documented, and this must be signed by the employee. The training agreement that the consultant proposed had a sliding scale of costs payable by the employee that depended on their length of service after they had received training.


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## Fozzie Bear (Jul 17, 2013)

cliche guevara said:


> I might be about to hand my notice in at work, and have noticed that my "education contract" for some qualifications I recently took states that if I leave the company within two years of completion they will deduct the amount paid from my last paycheck. This is likely to be all of my final paycheck, if not a bit more. Can they actually do this? I'm a bit worried about it as I have absolutely zero savings and am really living month to month at the minute.
> 
> In my favour, I was promised "adequate compensation" several months back for taking on additional responsibilities above my role, which have never materialised despite me chasing several times. This was never formally recorded though. Also I put in a dick load of hours beyond my contract, but again I think that as I'm salaried they could just laugh that off?


 
I think it is unreasonable of them to deduct the whole amount in one go. At the very least you should be offered the opportunity to pay it back in installments.

If you are in a union, talk to your rep. If not, then you'll have to make a judgement whether your HR people are reasonable human beings or if you'd be better off getting legal advice.

Also, steal as many pens as you can.


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## cliche guevara (Jul 17, 2013)

veracity said:


> I had to deal with this from the employer's perspective recently, putting training agreements in place for staff joining a new company.
> 
> Our HR consultant advised that, in order for the employer to legitimately recoup training/qualification costs, they must clearly demonstrate that the training cost the company a quantifiable amount, and that the training or qualification must relate to transferable skills, i.e. that employee benefited by enhancing their employment prospects. The agreement to recoup costs must be fully documented, and this must be signed by the employee. The training agreement that the consultant proposed had a sliding scale of costs payable by the employee that depended on their length of service after they had received training.


 
Well, shit. It's documented, I've signed it and it is a very definite quantifiable amount. It's also a professional qualification which has almost certainly helped me get a new job.


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## DownwardDog (Jul 17, 2013)

Yes. I've seen airlines pursue defecting pilots to the ends of the earth (Invercargill) to recover type rating costs.


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## FridgeMagnet (Jul 17, 2013)

If you have claims about "adequate compensation" you could try to take the route that they should waive the training fee to make up for that - even if there's no amount formally documented. (In fact no specific amount is better.) If they think you are serious about chasing that up, and have a chance of doing so, they may go for it.


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## RedDragon (Jul 17, 2013)

Yes they can but only if it's stated in your employment contract


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## cliche guevara (Jul 17, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> If you have claims about "adequate compensation" you could try to take the route that they should waive the training fee to make up for that - even if there's no amount formally documented. (In fact no specific amount is better.) If they think you are serious about chasing that up, and have a chance of doing so, they may go for it.


 
I think this is the route I'll go down. My immediate boss and the MD are both reasonable people so I'm sure they'll see my point of view. My concern is that we've recently been taken over and budgets have been restricted so much that the head honchos will want to squeeze every single penny out of me.



RedDragon said:


> Yes they can but only if it's stated in your employment contract


 
My employment contract doesn't seem to state this, is the learning contract that I signed seen as an addendum to this?


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## Teaboy (Jul 17, 2013)

cliche guevara said:


> I might be about to hand my notice in at work, and have noticed that my "education contract" for some qualifications I recently took states that if I leave the company within two years of completion they will deduct the amount paid from my last paycheck. This is likely to be all of my final paycheck, if not a bit more. Can they actually do this? I'm a bit worried about it as I have absolutely zero savings and am really living month to month at the minute.


 
Yes. If they have paid for courses and qualifications that will progress your career it seems fair to me that they would ask for the money back if you ditch them before the company has a chance to benefit from your new skills.



> In my favour, I was promised "adequate compensation" several months back for taking on additional responsibilities above my role, which have never materialised despite me chasing several times. This was never formally recorded though. Also I put in a dick load of hours beyond my contract, but again I think that as I'm salaried they could just laugh that off?


 
The 'jam tomorrow' approach is a common tactic by business. Never take on any new roles / work without knowing exactly what and how you will be rewarded and make sure everything is documented. As for working extra hours over your contracted hours, check your contract. You may be entitled to overtime but in all likelihood there will be a clause which states that as part of your job you will be expected to work extra hours when required, its a common clause.

From the sounds of it you're stuffed and your only hope my be to appeal to their better nature or make up a very good reason why you're having to leave, going to look after an ill relative or something.


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## Looby (Jul 17, 2013)

If it's in writing I don't think there's a lot you can do about it unless they are reasonable over the extra responsibility.  

This happened to a friend of mine over accountancy qualifications. 

I'm pretty sure she used this to negotiate with her new employer as her agency indicated that some employers would compensate for this. 
I guess this only works if you've been head-hunted or they really want you.


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## cesare (Jul 17, 2013)

veracity said:


> I had to deal with this from the employer's perspective recently, putting training agreements in place for staff joining a new company.
> 
> Our HR consultant advised that, in order for the employer to legitimately recoup training/qualification costs, they must clearly demonstrate that the training cost the company a quantifiable amount, and that the training or qualification must relate to transferable skills, i.e. that employee benefited by enhancing their employment prospects. The agreement to recoup costs must be fully documented, and this must be signed by the employee. The training agreement that the consultant proposed had a sliding scale of costs payable by the employee that depended on their length of service after they had received training.


Yes, this is exactly how it's meant to be done. The sliding scale aspect is very important because this relates to the return on investment of training (and other associated costs such as materials, exam fees, study time prior to exams etc) which is continued employment for an amount of time afterwards in that qualified (or part qualified) role. This is very common in accountancy related positions, for example.


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## cesare (Jul 17, 2013)

RedDragon said:


> Yes they can but only if it's stated in your employment contract


It can be an addendum/schedule, or separate learning contract.


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## cesare (Jul 17, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> If you have claims about "adequate compensation" you could try to take the route that they should waive the training fee to make up for that - even if there's no amount formally documented. (In fact no specific amount is better.) If they think you are serious about chasing that up, and have a chance of doing so, they may go for it.


It's the best lever to use to negotiate with them, and they might go for it (even if only partially waiving). It might be subject to a compromise agreement if they think that cliche guevara is seriously considering pursuing them for it. After qualification it's also usual for newly qualifieds to go into a formal newly qualified role (rather than trainee) and be paid accordingly whilst continuing their professional development. A lot depends on what cliche does tbh.

Also sparklefish's advice about trying to get the new employer to take the hit on costs is also good. This often happens with newly qualified people leaving at qualification.


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## cliche guevara (Jul 17, 2013)

The reason I'm leaving is because of the threat of redundancy. The company has recently been sold, and the new owners are splitting the group and selling my smaller part of the company separately, which likely won't end well for us. The other, larger part of the group has suffered c. 200 redundancies, but as my part of the company hasn't yet (however likely it may be) I think I'm stuffed from that aspect too.


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## StoneRoad (Jul 17, 2013)

What are your redundancy rights ? ...... they might set one against the other.

You need more information......if you are not in a union / professional association, I'ld try ACAS for advice......


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## Yelkcub (Jul 17, 2013)

It's seems entirely reasonable that they hold you to the agreement. That said, I would approach them and suggest that you are only leaving because they are unable to guarantee you long term work an that the agreement is silent on that front...


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## Puddy_Tat (Jul 17, 2013)

I agree with others - it's not at all uncommon, for example it's pretty standard for bus drivers if they are taken on and put through the PSV / PCV training and test at their new employer's expense - if they then leave within 2 years, they are expected to pay something back.

It can be a sliding scale, e.g. 100% within first 6 months, down to 25% in months 18-24.

While I'm not a lawyer or anything resembling one, I'd say that they would have a fair chance of getting judgement against you, since it's in writing, there has been (I take it) an identifiable cost in getting you through the qualification, and you'll be traceable and have an income which will make it worth their while chasing you.

Sorry if that's not the answer you wanted.

Yes, probably worth trying to negotiate, if it's been (say) 23 months since you finished the course, then it would be fair to try and argue paying something but not the full whack.  The possible redundancy situation (and thus saving them redundancy pay) may or may not help matters.

They may be reluctant to go for installments, as it's not as if you'll have future pay cheques from them that they could deduct anything from.


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## 8115 (Jul 17, 2013)

Were you expected/ encouraged to take the qualification, and was it drawn to your attention/ reminded at the time that you would owe the costs if you left?  If so, and not, I think there's an argument they have behaved unreasonably, whether this would stand up in law I don't know.


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## cliche guevara (Jul 17, 2013)

I was definitely encouraged to take it, and if I'd known before I took it that my future would be uncertain then I never would've committed. I've been with this company for seven years. However, I'm sure they'll stick with the old "It's BAU in your business unit and until a sale is announced these changes don't affect you" bullshit.


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## free spirit (Jul 17, 2013)

should really be on a sliding scale IMO - ie if it's 2 years in the contract and you've worked 6 months since the course then at most you should be repaying 3/4 of the costs.

tbh 2 years seems too long to me to be reasonable, but not my area of expertise really.


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## equationgirl (Jul 19, 2013)

free spirit said:


> should really be on a sliding scale IMO - ie if it's 2 years in the contract and you've worked 6 months since the course then at most you should be repaying 3/4 of the costs.
> 
> tbh 2 years seems too long to me to be reasonable, but not my area of expertise really.


 
Two years seems to be quite common - I've seen it a few times now with a sliding scale.

Mind you if it's a course the company expects you to do as part of your job my personal feeling is that it seems unfair to tie people in that way. I have refused to sign a training contract in the past for some MSc modules my boss wanted me to do, and in the end I didn't have to do the course. It wasn't relevant to my job at the time nor would it have improved my skillset. I think it was just one of her ridiculous ideas.


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## Cloo (Jul 20, 2013)

Yeah, gsv had this in his work contract and was worried about it at the time. Luckily they dropped him after 5 not very happy months so it didn't come in to it... he was quite worried about signing it and waited until he had confirmation that it only applied if _he_ left. I talked to some friends about it and they said they'd heard of it; one said she knew of someone's new employer paying off the costs to get them on board, but I guess that's only going to apply in certain industries. Worth finding out if your new guys will cough up, maybe?


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## cliche guevara (Aug 6, 2013)

Managed to blag this one quite well in the end. They agreed to halve the costs seeing as my job isn't really secure at the minute - HR agreed with my argument that my circumstances have changed significantly since I signed the learning contract. I was also owed a day and a half holiday for each module I took, so I pushed a bit further and got the 4.5 days holiday added to my allowance, which will be paid back pro rata into my final pay cheque, leaving me only about £160 out of pocket. Thanks to everyone who offered advice here.


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## Puddy_Tat (Aug 6, 2013)




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## cesare (Aug 6, 2013)

Well negotiated  and good news


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## equationgirl (Aug 6, 2013)

Nice one, cliche guevara, well done


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