# Jo Cox MP shot and stabbed in the street - now confirmed dead



## J Ed (Jun 16, 2016)




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## J Ed (Jun 16, 2016)

Seems like it happened during advice surgery, reports so far of injury not death*


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## bi0boy (Jun 16, 2016)

Woman ‘shot and stabbed’ outside Birstall library - Batley and Birstall News


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## colacubes (Jun 16, 2016)

BBC reporting injury rather than death, but it's only on breaking news at the moment.

MP injured amid 'shooting' reports - BBC News

Grim


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## Idris2002 (Jun 16, 2016)

Yorkshire post:

Labour MP Jo Cox ‘shot and stabbed’ outside Birstall library - huge hunt for attacker

Looks bad, I wouldn't be surprised if she was a goner.


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## danny la rouge (Jun 16, 2016)

Hope she's OK, but it's not looking good from eyewitness reports


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## 5t3IIa (Jun 16, 2016)

Another MP got murdered(?) during surgery a few (?) years ago, didn't they?


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## colacubes (Jun 16, 2016)

5t3IIa said:


> Another MP got murdered(?) during surgery a few (?) years ago, didn't they?



Stabbed.  He survived fortunately.  Was about 5 years ago in your old neck of the woods.

Woman jailed for life for attack on MP Stephen Timms - BBC News


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## bi0boy (Jun 16, 2016)

5t3IIa said:


> Another MP got murdered(?) during surgery a few (?) years ago, didn't they?



Stabbed by an Islamist for voting for the Iraq war and survived: Stephen Timms - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## mauvais (Jun 16, 2016)

5t3IIa said:


> Another MP got murdered(?) during surgery a few (?) years ago, didn't they?


Not an MP, but an assistant.

Andrew Pennington - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Pickman's model (Jun 16, 2016)

Good time for speculation


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## 5t3IIa (Jun 16, 2016)

Liked for googling for me. Thank you.


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## danny la rouge (Jun 16, 2016)

A man's been arrested.


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## bi0boy (Jun 16, 2016)

52-year old arrested


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## J Ed (Jun 16, 2016)

The descriptions of witnesses in the Independent are so bizarre, they cannot be true. Police 'hunt for gunman' as Labour MP shot


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## danny la rouge (Jun 16, 2016)




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## Dogsauce (Jun 16, 2016)

bi0boy said:


> 52-year old arrested



Brexit demographic.


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## 5t3IIa (Jun 16, 2016)

J Ed said:


> The descriptions of witnesses in the Independent are so bizarre, they cannot be true. Police 'hunt for gunman' as Labour MP shot


What's bizare?


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## bi0boy (Jun 16, 2016)

She was chair of the All Party Parliamentary Friends of Syria group:


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## DotCommunist (Jun 16, 2016)

I feel slightly dirty for googling her with theyworkforyou and checking to see if she is a dick or not. Either way, thas a fucked up thing to happen to someone doing their job.


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## danny la rouge (Jun 16, 2016)




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## danny la rouge (Jun 16, 2016)

bi0boy said:


> She was chair of the All Party Parliamentary Friends of Syria group:



52 is not "elderly", ffs.


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## bi0boy (Jun 16, 2016)

danny la rouge said:


> 52 is not "elderly", ffs.



Perhaps they arrested the wrong guy then


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## Pickman's model (Jun 16, 2016)

Dogsauce said:


> Brexit demographic.


Not just fifty something men voting brexit tho


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## J Ed (Jun 16, 2016)

5t3IIa said:


> What's bizare?



The WW2-era pistol, the apparently elderly attacker and subsequent arrest of man in 50s...


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## two sheds (Jun 16, 2016)

Independent says she intervened in an argument between the two men.


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## danny la rouge (Jun 16, 2016)

bi0boy said:


> Perhaps they arrested the wrong guy then


Maybe.


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## Spymaster (Jun 16, 2016)

danny la rouge said:


> 52 is not "elderly", ffs.


Too fucking right, eh, Pilch?


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## danny la rouge (Jun 16, 2016)

two sheds said:


> Independent says she intervened in an argument between the two men.


Good point. Maybe the arrested man isn't her assailant.


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## Orang Utan (Jun 16, 2016)

danny la rouge said:


> 52 is not "elderly", ffs.


Depends on the witness.

Anyway, many 52 year olds look older than they are. Esp Britain First supporters. Paul Golding is only 34 and looks 52


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## nino_savatte (Jun 16, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> I feel slightly dirty for googling her with theyworkforyou and checking to see if she is a dick or not.


She nominated Corbyn, then claimed to have "regretted" doing so. She voted for Mint Cake.


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## 5t3IIa (Jun 16, 2016)

J Ed said:


> The WW2-era pistol, the apparently elderly attacker and subsequent arrest of man in 50s...


Well, 'fortunately' if there's a gun in the UK it's likely to be a manky old one, rather than a semi-automatic assault  rifle


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## nino_savatte (Jun 16, 2016)

danny la rouge said:


> 52 is not "elderly", ffs.


Quite right.


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## two sheds (Jun 16, 2016)

danny la rouge said:


> Good point. Maybe the arrested man isn't her assailant.



Or the other guy was trying to restrain the attacker which someone else has said.


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## danny la rouge (Jun 16, 2016)




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## Orang Utan (Jun 16, 2016)

If the guy is a Britain First supporter, I wonder if he was at last weekend's boot camp? There are reports Cox was stabbed and BF's boot camp activities included 'knife self-defence'.


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## J Ed (Jun 16, 2016)

two sheds said:


> Or the other guy was trying to restrain the attacker which someone else has said.



That is what it looks like to me. The early reports made it sound like Cox was trying to intervene between two men who were fighting and was inadvertently shot, that's why I said they sounded bizarre.


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## gawkrodger (Jun 16, 2016)

If he is fash as early reports are suggesting, and she does not pull through, would this be the first political assassination in the UK since when? 1990? 91?


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## bi0boy (Jun 16, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> If the guy is a Britain First supporter, I wonder if he was at last weekend's boot camp? There are reports Cox was stabbed and BF's boot camp activities included 'knife self-defence'.



If you want to speculate, maybe he was got at and this was a false flag op for Remain.


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## Geri (Jun 16, 2016)

She is chair of the all party group on Syria and well respected by Syrian activists.


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## J Ed (Jun 16, 2016)

bi0boy said:


> If you want to speculate, maybe he was got at and this was a false flag op for Remain.



I don't think there will be any shortage of people suggesting exactly that for the next few decades.


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## Pickman's model (Jun 16, 2016)

J Ed said:


> That is what it looks like to me. The early reports made it sound like Cox was trying to intervene between two men who were fighting and was inadvertently shot, that's why I said they sounded bizarre.


Like the auld 'power surge' at Liverpool street


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## Orang Utan (Jun 16, 2016)

This is supposed to be a pic of the attacker:
 
Photo of alleged attacker apparently being arrested


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## Vintage Paw (Jun 16, 2016)

J Ed said:


> I don't think there will be any shortage of people suggesting exactly that for the next few decades.



I've already seen one very serious tweet to that effect.


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## The Boy (Jun 16, 2016)

J Ed said:


> I don't think there will be any shortage of people suggesting exactly that for the next few decades.



 I have a family member who's a ball hair from making that very claim already on facebook


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## Pickman's model (Jun 16, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> This is supposed to be a pic of the attacker:
> View attachment 88495
> Photo of alleged attacker apparently being arrested


Something awful's happened to his face


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## Pickman's model (Jun 16, 2016)

J Ed said:


> I don't think there will be any shortage of people suggesting exactly that for the next few decades.


Kingfisher will be along shortly


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## Wookey (Jun 16, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Something awful's happened to his face



Pixel spray, latest thing.


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## seventh bullet (Jun 16, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> Depends on the witness.
> 
> Anyway, many 52 year olds look older than they are. Esp Britain First supporters. Paul Golding is only 34 and looks 52



Yeah. You can tell a far-rightist by the way they look.


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## Bernie Gunther (Jun 16, 2016)

bi0boy said:


> If you want to speculate, maybe he was got at and this was a false flag op for Remain.



That seems to be the prevailing view on free republic, always a good place to take the pulse of the gun waving loon spud crowd


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## teqniq (Jun 16, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Kingfisher will be along shortly


Please, no


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## Coolfonz (Jun 16, 2016)

J Ed said:


> I don't think there will be any shortage of people suggesting exactly that for the next few decades.


Probably organised by Vince Cable.


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## The39thStep (Jun 16, 2016)

I sometimes get the feeling that there is an almighty sense of relief that when things like this happen that the attacker isn't Muslim


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## killer b (Jun 16, 2016)

The39thStep said:


> I sometimes get the feeling that there is an almighty sense of relief that when things like this happen that the attacker isn't Muslim


I think there often is.


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## sleaterkinney (Jun 16, 2016)

Shot multiple times and stabbed, hope she pulls through.


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## teqniq (Jun 16, 2016)

So do I


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## J Ed (Jun 16, 2016)

It's hard to piece together exactly what happened and when in terms of the attack and the intervention by the person defending Cox, reports are all over the place. I suppose it doesn't matter too much anyway.


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## Pickman's model (Jun 16, 2016)

J Ed said:


> It's hard to piece together exactly what happened and when in terms of the attack and the intervention by the person defending Cox, reports are all over the place. I suppose it doesn't matter too much anyway.


yes, this is the best time for speculation


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## J Ed (Jun 16, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> yes, this is the best time for speculation



Well someone on twitter got angry at me for not assuming it was a far-right terrorist before anyone knew anything so I can only assume that we are indeed all supposed to be wildly and blindly speculating.


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## Pickman's model (Jun 16, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Well someone on twitter got angry at me for not assuming it was a far-right terrorist before anyone knew anything so I can only assume that we are indeed all supposed to be wildly and blindly speculating.


it is speculation time


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## treelover (Jun 16, 2016)

Where did the notion that he shouted , britain first' come from?


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## Geri (Jun 16, 2016)

treelover said:


> Where did the notion that he shouted , britain first' come from?


 
Witness.


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## Pickman's model (Jun 16, 2016)

treelover said:


> Where did the notion that he shouted , britain first' come from?


why don't you have a look?

e.g. MP Jo Cox shot twice by man who shouted 'Britain First'

can you do your own work, treelover?


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## danny la rouge (Jun 16, 2016)

treelover said:


> Where did the notion that he shouted , britain first' come from?


Witness reports.

*"Elderly attacker 'shouted Britain First'*
The man who gunned down Ms Cox shouted ‘Britain First’, an eyewitness claims.

Speaking to Sky News, the witness said the shooter looked to be in his 60s or 70s.

He said the man walked very slowly away from the scene after the attack."

Labour MP 'shot and stabbed' outside West Yorkshire library - latest updates


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## treelover (Jun 16, 2016)

So, a right wing terrorist then?


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## Treacle Toes (Jun 16, 2016)

treelover said:


> So, a right wing terrorist then?



Is that how you would describe him?


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## Pickman's model (Jun 16, 2016)

treelover said:


> So, a right wing terrorist then?


what do you think?


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## Orang Utan (Jun 16, 2016)

The Guardian has named a witness who claims the attacker was shouting Britain First:
Labour MP Jo Cox shot in West Yorkshire – latest updates


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## bi0boy (Jun 16, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> The Guardian has named a witness who claims the attacker was shouting Britain First:
> Labour MP Jo Cox shot in West Yorkshire – latest updates



I guess he's an accountant, perhaps a reliable witness.


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## Treacle Toes (Jun 16, 2016)

bi0boy said:


> I guess he's an accountant, perhaps a reliable witness.



Who would have a made an unreliable witness?


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## bi0boy (Jun 16, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Who would have a made an unreliable witness?



Someone who gave a fake name, someone who someone made up


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## J Ed (Jun 16, 2016)

a dog


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## gawkrodger (Jun 16, 2016)

and BF are beginning to shit it - stressing the unconfirmed nature of reports (fair enough, if a bit rich coming from them) and that the 'Media desperately try to incriminate Britain First'


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## Pickman's model (Jun 16, 2016)

bi0boy said:


> I guess he's an accountant, perhaps a reliable witness.


yeh. perhaps. but then again perhaps not.


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## Pickman's model (Jun 16, 2016)

gawkrodger said:


> and BF are beginning to shit it - stressing the unconfirmed nature of reports (fair enough, if a bit rich coming from them) and that the 'Media desperately try to incriminate Britain First'


new pants for jayda fransen


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## editor (Jun 16, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Is that how you would describe him?


I'd describe him as a cowardly little fucking shit first and foremost.


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## danny la rouge (Jun 16, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Who would have a made an unreliable witness?


Certain accountants...


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## Orang Utan (Jun 16, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh. perhaps. but then again perhaps not.


One book for each possibility


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## DaveCinzano (Jun 16, 2016)

danny la rouge said:


> Certain accountants...


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## twentythreedom (Jun 16, 2016)

Why has all EU ref campaigning been cancelled? Not sure how it actually helps


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## Pickman's model (Jun 16, 2016)

twentythreedom said:


> Why has all EU ref campaigning been cancelled? Not sure how it actually helps


because people would think they were heartless and nasty


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## Orang Utan (Jun 16, 2016)

twentythreedom said:


> Why has all EU ref campaigning been cancelled? Not sure how it actually helps


cos they all want to look like they're being sensitive


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## YouSir (Jun 16, 2016)

twentythreedom said:


> Why has all EU ref campaigning been cancelled? Not sure how it actually helps



Security risks perhaps? May seem like a lone arsehole but why risk it. Or as a nod to the fact that neither side could resist exploiting it if they spoke publically.


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## Coolfonz (Jun 16, 2016)

When are moderate right wingers going to sort these people out? At least right wing people should be apologising.


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## Pickman's model (Jun 16, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> because people would think they were heartless and nasty





Orang Utan said:


> cos they all want to look like they're being sensitive


two sides of the same coin


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## Pickman's model (Jun 16, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> When are moderate right wingers going to sort these people out? At least right wing people should be apologising.


they should always be apologising


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## agricola (Jun 16, 2016)

The BBC have named the attacker as Tommy Mair, based on local reports.  He possibly appears in this article.


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## bi0boy (Jun 16, 2016)

Accodring to the Telegraph there is another witness for the Britain First thing -

"Mr Rothwell added: He was stabbing her with a foot long knife multiple times while shouting Britain First, Britain First, Britain First."

He appears to be a plumber


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## bluescreen (Jun 16, 2016)

agricola said:


> The BBC have named the attacker as Tommy Mair, based on local reports.  He possibly appears in this article.


The age fits, since that article is from 2010.


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## weltweit (Jun 16, 2016)

bi0boy said:


> .. He appears to be a plumber


He appears to me to be mentally unhinged!


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## Dogsauce (Jun 16, 2016)

Wonder who radicalised him?


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## Orang Utan (Jun 16, 2016)

weltweit said:


> He appears to me to be mentally unhinged!


the witness? how do you know?


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## Orang Utan (Jun 16, 2016)

agricola said:


> The BBC have named the attacker as Tommy Mair, based on local reports.  He possibly appears in this article.


is that confirmed? there is another local article on Google featuring someone with that name and possibly his photo, but let's not get all Christopher Jefferies about it


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## twentythreedom (Jun 16, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> cos they all want to look like they're being sensitive


Who's going to crack first I wonder


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## agricola (Jun 16, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> is that confirmed? there is another local article on Google featuring someone with that name and possibly his photo, but let's not get all Christopher Jefferies about it



It isn't, the BBC just said his name was Tommy Mair and that they had been told this by locals (and not officially).  A Google search for Thomas Mair and Birstall brings up that article, where someone who would be around 52 is mentioned.


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## Orang Utan (Jun 16, 2016)

agricola said:


> It isn't, the BBC just said his name was Tommy Mair and that they had been told this by locals (and not officially).  A Google search for Thomas Mair and Birstall brings up that article, where someone who would be around 52 is mentioned.


it brings up another article too but it has an unattributed photo with a fella who looks vaguely like the guy in the photos of the incident. I can imagine some media getting ahead of themselves and posting a picture of someone who has nowt to do with it.


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## Coolfonz (Jun 16, 2016)

`Violence is the next step` N Farage.
Nigel Farage Predicts 'Violence The Next Step' If Immigration Is Not Controlled


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## Pickman's model (Jun 16, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> `Violence is the next step` N Farage.
> Nigel Farage Predicts 'Violence The Next Step' If Immigration Is Not Controlled


oh i'd love to see nf try to take things onto the streets  he'd get a fucking pasting


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## bluescreen (Jun 16, 2016)




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## pocketscience (Jun 16, 2016)

mother of 2 
hope she pulls through


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## agricola (Jun 16, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> it brings up another article too but it has an unattributed photo with a fella who looks vaguely like the guy in the photos of the incident. *I can imagine some media getting ahead of themselves and posting a picture of someone who has nowt to do with it*.



That article you mention is now the second most popular on the site it comes from (its only behind the one reporting this attack); its probably only that photo being unattributed that is preventing it being everywhere.


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## bi0boy (Jun 16, 2016)

agricola said:


> The BBC have named the attacker as Tommy Mair, based on local reports.  He possibly appears in this article.



Police are searching a property in Lowood Lane, Birstall, according to the BBC News channel.

There is a Thomas A Mair listed in the electoral roll as living on that road.


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## Sifta (Jun 16, 2016)

The Mirror have gone with the picture:

First picture of man suspected of 'shooting and stabbing' Labour MP Jo Cox


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## DaveCinzano (Jun 16, 2016)

bi0boy said:


> He appears to be a plumber





Dogsauce said:


> Wonder who radicalised him?



Super Mario?


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## agricola (Jun 16, 2016)

Sifta said:


> The Mirror have gone with the picture:
> 
> First picture of man suspected of 'shooting and stabbing' Labour MP Jo Cox



Attributing it to Facebook is a bit low.


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## Pickman's model (Jun 16, 2016)

the mirror should be ashamed of pixellating the faces of the police.


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## Dogsauce (Jun 16, 2016)

I thought somewhere it said that was a picture of the other guy who was injured being assisted by the police, rather than the suspect?


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## DaveCinzano (Jun 16, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> the mirror should be ashamed of pixellating the faces of the police.


Artist's impression by Seurat


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## bi0boy (Jun 16, 2016)

Police press conference now


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## bi0boy (Jun 16, 2016)

She has died.


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## bluescreen (Jun 16, 2016)

Oh god.


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## neonwilderness (Jun 16, 2016)

The Guardian are reporting that she's died


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## twentythreedom (Jun 16, 2016)

Shit  RIP. Seemed like a good egg too. And killed for what


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## trashpony (Jun 16, 2016)

Shit. This is so awful


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## Lord Camomile (Jun 16, 2016)

Fucking hell.

For all the posturing and vitriol, you just don't expect this to happen to an MP. Really awful


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## angusmcfangus (Jun 16, 2016)

Shit.


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## danny la rouge (Jun 16, 2016)

Shit, that's dismal news.


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## Pickman's model (Jun 16, 2016)

RIP


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## editor (Jun 16, 2016)

bi0boy said:


> She has died.


That's terrible, terrible news.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 16, 2016)

Awful. Whatever your issue with any politico, there's no need for that shit.


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## agricola (Jun 16, 2016)

Awful news.


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## teqniq (Jun 16, 2016)




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## ChrisD (Jun 16, 2016)

I am in tears

unusual for me  RIP Jo


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## pesh (Jun 16, 2016)

RIP


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## colacubes (Jun 16, 2016)

Awful   RIP


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## fishfinger (Jun 16, 2016)

Oh shit


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## Looby (Jun 16, 2016)

Fuck. [emoji20]


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## Pickman's model (Jun 16, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Awful. Whatever your issue with any politico, there's no need for that shit.


yeh. well, if her murderer was shouting 'britain first' while hacking at her then i wouldn't be surprised if golding, fransen et al were in for what the tabloids call a torrid time.


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## YouSir (Jun 16, 2016)

RIP


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## not-bono-ever (Jun 16, 2016)

shit.


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## planetgeli (Jun 16, 2016)

Fuck. RIP.


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## Pugnax (Jun 16, 2016)

What the fuck, rip


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## eatmorecheese (Jun 16, 2016)

Christ this is horrible. Her poor kids. RIP


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## omnipeta (Jun 16, 2016)

Pugnax said:


> What the fuck, rip


Very, very sad, :-( my thoughts are with her family. RIP.


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## Dogsauce (Jun 16, 2016)

Shit. Poor fucking kids.


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## Smangus (Jun 16, 2016)

Terrible thing, RIP


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## Sea Star (Jun 16, 2016)




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## kazza007 (Jun 16, 2016)

Awful news, rip , condolences to her friends and family


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## ddraig (Jun 16, 2016)

Fuck!
RIP 
Jo Cox MP dead after shooting attack - BBC News


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## twentythreedom (Jun 16, 2016)

Bloke being interviewed on Sky


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## fakeplasticgirl (Jun 16, 2016)

Shit.

RIP


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## Flavour (Jun 16, 2016)

Terrible


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## Buddy Bradley (Jun 16, 2016)

Seriously fucked up.


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## Tony_LeaS (Jun 16, 2016)

As much as we clash with political rivals, those who dont share our views or even may just dislike entirely because of who they are, this is awful fucking news to hear. RIP Jo.

What the fuck has our country become?


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## felixthecat (Jun 16, 2016)

Just got home and seen this.
Poor poor woman. Poor wee kids 

And for what eh?


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## Lord Camomile (Jun 16, 2016)

Tony_LeaS said:


> What the fuck has our country become?


You'd like to hope that if anything came from this it would serve as a sharp, horrifying glimpse into where we might be heading and everyone would put the brakes on fucking sharpish, but honestly no idea what's going to come next.


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## ruffneck23 (Jun 16, 2016)

RIP , shitty news


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## Pickman's model (Jun 16, 2016)

Lord Camomile said:


> You'd like to hope that if anything came from this it would serve as a sharp, horrifying glimpse into where we might be heading and everyone would put the brakes on fucking sharpish, but honestly no idea what's going to come next.


Something worse


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## PursuedByBears (Jun 16, 2016)

Fuck


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## Dogsauce (Jun 16, 2016)

Tweet from husband earlier today. Poor wee sods.


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## Gavin Bl (Jun 16, 2016)

Radio 4 was interviewing two politicians who knew her well, cut the to a police news conference where her death was announced, then had to cut back to these two people who obviously didn't know until that point - it was awful


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## treelover (Jun 16, 2016)

watching the inter-country violence at the Euro's, the new nationalisms, etc, we seem to be heading for a fractured violent time.


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## Pickman's model (Jun 16, 2016)

Iirc last MP killed Ian gow 1990


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## newharper (Jun 16, 2016)

RIP


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## Pickman's model (Jun 16, 2016)

treelover said:


> watching the inter-country violence at the Euro's, the new nationalisms, etc, we seem to be heading for a fractured violent time.


Something you might have gauged by resource wars in the middle east over the past 50 years, the fractured state of Islam leading to sanguinary conflict, a resurgent Russia and clueless USA not to mention the chance of war in the Pacific


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## Sprocket. (Jun 16, 2016)

Shocking news, poor woman, poor kids and husband.
So standing up for those at the bottom of the heap gets you murdered by a right wing fanatic.
RIP Jo Cox, thank you for trying to make a difference.


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## Orang Utan (Jun 16, 2016)

Twitterers keep referring to her as a lawmaker. Is this a convention to refer to MPs as such?


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## trashpony (Jun 16, 2016)

She'd only been an MP for a year. How fucking terrible and senseless. 
She sounds like a completely wonderful woman


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## Pickman's model (Jun 16, 2016)

Gavin Bl said:


> Radio 4 was interviewing two politicians who knew her well, cut the to a police news conference where her death was announced, then had to cut back to these two people who obviously didn't know until that point - it was awful


Sure there's a BBC shit thread that should go on, despicable behaviour


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## brogdale (Jun 16, 2016)

Genuinely shocking news; just awful.


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## sim667 (Jun 16, 2016)

Sad to hear this. RIP.


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## bi0boy (Jun 16, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> Twitterers keep referring to her as a lawmaker. Is this a convention to refer to MPs as such?



It's what they call senators and members of congress in America. It's a useful generic term for, um, lawmakers in any country. Not sure there is an alternate word tbh.


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## bluescreen (Jun 16, 2016)

Gavin Bl said:


> Radio 4 was interviewing two politicians who knew her well, cut the to a police news conference where her death was announced, then had to cut back to these two people who obviously didn't know until that point - it was awful


Hard  to see how they could avoid it. They returned to the studio, where Carolyn Quinn had just heard the news at the same time as everyone else. She had difficulty holding back the tears. The other pols were in the studio with her. It was heartbreaking all round.


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## Pickman's model (Jun 16, 2016)

bi0boy said:


> It's what they call senators and members of congress in America. It's a useful generic term for, um, lawmakers in any country. Not sure there is an alternate word tbh.


Only the auld parliamentarian


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## Orang Utan (Jun 16, 2016)

bi0boy said:


> It's what they call senators and members of congress in America. It's a useful generic term for, um, lawmakers in any country. Not sure there is an alternate word tbh.


just seems a waste of characters when MP is perfectly fine


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## Ranbay (Jun 16, 2016)




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## bi0boy (Jun 16, 2016)

Doubts cast on the Britain First thing, articles edited, tweets deleted etc... Perhaps he said "bring the furs" or something.


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## Gavin Bl (Jun 16, 2016)

bluescreen said:


> Hard  to see how they could avoid it. They returned to the studio, where Carolyn Quinn had just heard the news at the same time as everyone else. She had difficulty holding back the tears. The other pols were in the studio with her. It was heartbreaking all round.


 Yes I agree, wasn't a criticism of the beeb - it was just a dreadful situation


----------



## killer b (Jun 16, 2016)

Brendan Cox's statement is lovely. Amazed he has it in him.


----------



## killer b (Jun 16, 2016)




----------



## colacubes (Jun 16, 2016)

That genuinely moved me to tears.


----------



## trashpony (Jun 16, 2016)

Bloody hell, what an amazingly generous man.


----------



## gawkrodger (Jun 16, 2016)

London Black Revs are posting a bunch of stuff they claim shows he has a long history of far-right involvement.


----------



## Bungle73 (Jun 16, 2016)

Ranbay said:


>



Are those people actually trying to justify this vicious attack? I always knew they were utter scum.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Jun 16, 2016)

killer b said:


>


Impressively eloquent and generous so soon after the event.


----------



## ruffneck23 (Jun 16, 2016)

Ranbay said:


>



utter utter cunts


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 16, 2016)

Bungle73 said:


> Are those people actually trying to justify this vicious attack? I always knew they were utter scum.



They're fascists, what the fuck do you really expect???


----------



## bi0boy (Jun 16, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Iirc last MP killed Ian gow 1990



47 murdered since 1352, that's one every 15 years on average.


----------



## killer b (Jun 16, 2016)

trashpony said:


> Bloody hell, what an amazingly generous man.


Maybe there's hope after all.


----------



## friedaweed (Jun 16, 2016)

God that's terrible


----------



## StoneRoad (Jun 16, 2016)

Absolutely dreadful - the whole situation.
So desperately sad for her family (Husband and the two children).

RIP


----------



## Coolfonz (Jun 16, 2016)

Farage launched a campaign today with the same slogan as Britain First, `taking our country back`. In front of an advert, a line of what look like Syrians trying to `get into` Europe. Syrians which Jo Cox worked with.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 16, 2016)

gawkrodger said:


> London Black Revs are posting a bunch of stuff they claim shows he has a long history of far-right involvement.





> WHERE ARE THEY NOW ?
> 
> No.86 : Mr. THOMAS MAIR of Batley.
> 
> Thomas Mair, from Batley in Yorkshire, was one of the earliest subscribers and supporters of "S.A.Patriot". Recent correspondence sent to him has been returned to us, however, as he has evidently moved from his last known address in the Fieldhead Estate district of the town. If anyone knows of his new address then we would be very grateful to learn the details.


Springbok Cyber Newsletter: January 2006


----------



## Red O (Jun 16, 2016)

Mair was apparently referenced in the Huddersfield Daily Examiner in 2010 (Oakwell Hall thriving with help of volunteers. - Free Online Library), age and geography match up:

'Thomas Mair, 46, started volunteering at the park after learning about the opportunity through the Mirfield-based Pathways Day Centre for adults with mental health problems. 

'He said: "I can honestly say it has done me more good than all the psychotherapy and medication in the world. "Many people who suffer from mental illness are socially isolated and disconnected from society, feelings of worthlessness are also common mainly caused by long-term unemployment. 

'"All these problems are alleviated by doing voluntary work. 

'"Getting out of the house and meeting new people is a good thing, but more important in my view is doing physically demanding and useful labour. 

'"When you have finished there is a feeling of achievement which is emotionally rewarding and psychologically fulfilling. 

'"For people for whom full-time, paid employment is not possible for a variety of reasons, voluntary work offers a socially positive and therapeutic alternative."'


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 16, 2016)

ruffneck23 said:


> utter utter cunts


Yeh. These would be utter utter cunts who have had links to ukip


----------



## pocketscience (Jun 16, 2016)

the world's going to shit. so fucked up 
RIP


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 16, 2016)

Ranbay said:


>



Rob the gob might have been a more apt moniker


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 16, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> Springbok Cyber Newsletter: January 2006


Will someone please help these poor guys out and send them Mair's new address?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 16, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> Will someone please help these poor guys out and send them Mair's new address?


Give it a month or two till it's permanent


----------



## sim667 (Jun 16, 2016)

Ranbay said:


>




I think we're going to see more of this kind of thing, they've threatened to target Sadiq Khan and been holding "training camps" in Wales.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 16, 2016)

sim667 said:


> I think we're going to see more of this kind of thing, they've threatened to target Sadiq Khan and been holding "training camps" in Wales.



The fucking cunts still stand behind their police protection though. Brave that innit? These cunts want "war", bring it on.


----------



## cantsin (Jun 16, 2016)

gawkrodger said:


> London Black Revs are posting a bunch of stuff they claim shows he has a long history of far-right involvement.



seems like it's the one , anti ANC  connection ( Springbok Club ) , and then vague links between that lot and others - v little linking  Mair to activism / Brit First etc - but then when you see the ' targetting Muslim MPs' / Sad Khan etc ' campaign that BF were trying to get going, fuck em, they deserve everything coming their way .


----------



## weepiper (Jun 16, 2016)

Shit. This is awful. Her poor little kids


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 16, 2016)

cantsin said:


> seems like it's the one , anti ANC  connection ( Springbok Club ) , and then vague links between that lot and others - v little linking  Mair to activism / Brit First etc - but then when you see the ' targetting Muslim MPs' / Sad Khan etc ' campaign that BF were trying to get going, fuck em, they deserve everything coming their way .


I hope dartford's augean stables is about to be cleaned out


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 16, 2016)

cantsin said:


> seems like it's the one , anti ANC  connection ( Springbok Club ) , and then vague links between that lot and others - v little linking  Mair to activism / Brit First etc - but then when you see the ' targetting Muslim MPs' / Sad Khan etc ' campaign that BF were trying to get going, fuck em, they deserve everything coming their way .


seems like that organisation and the Swinton Club that they are affiliated with a more of an anti-Europe org than an anti-Islam group


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 16, 2016)

sim667 said:


> holding "training camps" in Wales.



Here's the link if it's not been posted yet - Britain First held an 'activist training camp' in the Welsh mountains

Wannabe soldiers, who were refused entry due to flat feet no doubt. Bring your fucking war.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Jun 16, 2016)

If the perpetrator is suffering from mental health issues I'm not sure how much we can attribute his actions to his politics.


----------



## Dr. Furface (Jun 16, 2016)

Shocking, horrific and desperately sad. RIP Jo


----------



## Coolfonz (Jun 16, 2016)

Lord Camomile said:


> If the perpetrator is suffering from mental health issues I'm not sure how much we can attribute his actions to his politics.


Being far right is a mental health issue.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 16, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> seems like that organisation and the Swinton Club that they are affiliated with a more of an anti-Europe org than an anti-Islam group


Yeh but bf's social media strategy intended to radicalise people like this, rather in this way. Even if golding never said to the accused please do Jo Cox for me, I would not be surprised if yer man took that message from bf's online propaganda.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 16, 2016)

Lord Camomile said:


> If the perpetrator is suffering from mental health issues I'm not sure how much we can attribute his actions to his politics.


why not? they're not exclusive of each other


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 16, 2016)

Lord Camomile said:


> If the perpetrator is suffering from mental health issues I'm not sure how much we can attribute his actions to his politics.


This is where the famous m'naghten rule comes into play, did he know what he was doing was wrong.


----------



## Chilli.s (Jun 16, 2016)

Terrible news.


----------



## gosub (Jun 16, 2016)

Dogsauce said:


> Tweet from husband earlier today. Poor wee sods.



   At least there last memories of their mum are going to be cool (surreal, but cool).   RIP


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 16, 2016)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Here's the link if it's not been posted yet - Britain First held an 'activist training camp' in the Welsh mountains
> 
> Wannabe soldiers, who were refused entry due to flat feet no doubt. Bring your fucking war.


When I saw them recently at piccadilly circus they didn't look too warlike


----------



## Lord Camomile (Jun 16, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> why not? they're not exclusive of each other


It depends what you mean by exclusive of each other, I suppose. If he'd said he did it for the glory of Mickey Mouse would you hold Disney to account?


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 16, 2016)

Lord Camomile said:


> It depends what you mean by exclusive of each other, I suppose. If he'd said he did it for the glory of Mickey Mouse would you hold Disney to account?


Nope, what I meant is you can be politically/ideologically motivated AND have MH issues and both can fuel such terrible actions


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jun 16, 2016)

Lord Camomile said:


> It depends what you mean by exclusive of each other, I suppose. If he'd said he did it for the glory of Mickey Mouse would you hold Disney to account?


Well, what with that recent alligator attack one starts to wonder...


----------



## Lord Camomile (Jun 16, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> Nope, what I meant is you can be politically/ideologically motivated AND have MH issues and both can fuel such terrible actions


Of course you can, but when ascribing motivation and causality I'm not sure you can attribute to much of that to the ideology.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 16, 2016)

Lord Camomile said:


> Of course you can, but when ascribing motivation and causality I'm not sure you can attribute to much of that to the ideology.


why not? ideology motivates everyone


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 16, 2016)

Lord Camomile said:


> Of course you can, but when ascribing motivation and causality I'm not sure you can attribute to much of that to the ideology.


Why not?


----------



## UrbaneFox (Jun 16, 2016)

Dreadful news. I was listening to the story on PM when suddenly they announced that she had died.

I cannot stop wondering how do you tell two small children that their mum has died.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 16, 2016)

UrbaneFox said:


> Dreadful news. I was listening to the story on PM when suddenly they announced that she had died.
> 
> I cannot stop wondering how do you tell two small children that their mum has died.


With difficulty, specially when it's all over the news. Very difficult


----------



## neonwilderness (Jun 16, 2016)

Lord Camomile said:


> It depends what you mean by exclusive of each other, I suppose. If he'd said he did it for the glory of Mickey Mouse would you hold Disney to account?


Then it would be less relevant as I don't think that Jo Cox was an outspoken campaigner for Disney.

There's quite a bit of hearsay about this at the moment. But if he did have MH problems then the outcome may have been different if the Britain First rhetoric hadn't been so strong recently.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Jun 16, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> why not? ideology motivates everyone





Pickman's model said:


> Why not?


Well, first off this is sketchy territory because we currently don't know anything about his mental state or his motivations, but I suppose I'd turn it around and ask what influence do you think the ideology had?

I suppose it may have influenced the target, and a certain rhetoric can fuel the actions. I'm not saying it had no influence, iIt just occurred to me that the talk of "where is this world going?" and "these people are scum" may be a bit premature.


----------



## Manter (Jun 16, 2016)

bi0boy said:


> She was chair of the All Party Parliamentary Friends of Syria group:



She was a great friend to refugees here and across Europe, came to Calais, campaigned for the dubs amendment and family reunion- absolutely tireless, she will be hugely missed. Devastating murder. And huge sympathy for her family especially the two young children left motherless


----------



## Bingo (Jun 16, 2016)

I drove past on a back street in Birstall as the cops were arresting the guy.


----------



## Bingo (Jun 16, 2016)

He looked harmless really. Hands up. Looked very scared. Must have mental health issues.


----------



## J Ed (Jun 16, 2016)

Bingo said:


> He looked harmless really. Hands up. Looked very scared. Must have mental health issues.



I mean, I am pretty sure that he wasn't harmless.. sort of the definition of not harmless.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 16, 2016)

Bingo said:


> He looked harmless really. Hands up. Looked very scared. Must have mental health issues.


Well, we'll see


----------



## J Ed (Jun 16, 2016)

Why is it now that mental health issues and ideology are presented as possible causes which preclude one another?


----------



## Lord Camomile (Jun 16, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Why is it now that mental health issues and ideology are presented as possible clauses which preclude one another?


As opposed to when?


----------



## kebabking (Jun 16, 2016)

Bingo said:


> He looked harmless really. Hands up. Looked very scared. Must have mental health issues.



or maybe he's just a pathetic little man who got fired up on the internet, and only when he's got a five foot womans blood all over his hands and two coppers kneeling in his back has he realised what he's done - not least (for him) to himself.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jun 16, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Why is it now that mental health issues and ideology are presented as possible clauses which preclude one another?


Because it is useful when trying to avoid an ideological component. Also general prejudice tbh

Eta: not just now though, it happens every time.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 16, 2016)

People on Twitter seem very sure about why he did it.


----------



## J Ed (Jun 16, 2016)

Lord Camomile said:


> As opposed to when?



I'm not saying it's an entirely new phenomenon but it seems a lot more popular now than it used to be.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 16, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> People on Twitter seem very sure about why he did it.


People on twitter always are


----------



## J Ed (Jun 16, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> People on Twitter seem very sure about why he did it.



Luckily for a lot of twitter users whenever a terrorist attack happens the explanation for it is always based on whatever narrative that person considers to be politically advantageous at that point in time.


----------



## D'wards (Jun 16, 2016)

Looks like he could be a Michael Ryan style oddball. We'll know in time what his motivations are. 
This is awful, a real sad day.


----------



## Bingo (Jun 16, 2016)

Knowing the area and having had a look at him, I reckon a vulnerable, mentally ill guy who's been taken in by all the racist shit flying around in those parts.


----------



## trashpony (Jun 16, 2016)

Whether her killer is mad or bad or both, she hasn't done anything that makes sense of her bring brutally cut down in this way. I don't think Lee Rugby's killers could be considered of sound mind either. 

This isn't something a sane person does


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 16, 2016)

gawkrodger said:


> If he is fash as early reports are suggesting, and she does not pull through, would this be the first political assassination in the UK since when? 1990? 91?


Since that Russian man with the polonium


----------



## nino_savatte (Jun 16, 2016)

Bingo said:


> Must have mental health issues.


Yes, when it's fash, mental health issues are often cited as a mitigating factor. They tried the same thing with Breivik. It turned out he was just plain fash. Now if the assailant had a 'Islamic sounding' name, many people would rush to claim he/she was an 'Islamist terrorist'. See the difference?


----------



## laptop (Jun 16, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> Twitterers keep referring to her as a lawmaker. Is this a convention to refer to MPs as such?


Only for Seppoes. Saves headline space compared to "Congresscritter and/or Representative".


----------



## NoXion (Jun 16, 2016)

Sane people do plenty of heinous shit. Conversely plenty of insane people are a danger to nobody but possibly themselves. I don't agree with the notion that only the mentally unwell commit political violence, which seems to be the implication behind all the "well, s/he was a nutter" types of discourse.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 16, 2016)

nino_savatte said:


> Yes, when it's fash, mental health issues are often cited as a mitigating factor. They tried the same thing with Breivik. It turned out he was just plain fash. Now if the assailant had a 'Islamic sounding' name, many people would rush to claim he/she was an 'Islamist terrorist'. See the difference?


Good point well made: auld whitey's just gone wrong


----------



## twentythreedom (Jun 16, 2016)

Bingo said:


> Knowing the area and having had a look at him, I reckon a vulnerable, mentally ill guy who's been taken in by all the racist shit flying around in those parts.


Case closed


----------



## nino_savatte (Jun 16, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Good point well made: auld whitey's just gone wrong


Or 'gone rogue'.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 16, 2016)

nino_savatte said:


> Or 'gone rogue'.


Yeh, while brown and black are born bad


----------



## T & P (Jun 16, 2016)

UrbaneFox said:


> Dreadful news. I was listening to the story on PM when suddenly they announced that she had died.
> 
> I cannot stop wondering how do you tell two small children that their mum has died.


I was thinking the same. Awful, awful situation. Her poor husband as well, who will have to comfort his children while dealing with the grief he must be experiencing. I don't think I'd have the strength...


----------



## quimcunx (Jun 16, 2016)

Terrible news for the country and her family. Those poor children. And her husband. Such composure in the face of their tragedy. 

RIP


----------



## agricola (Jun 16, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh, while brown and black are born bad


----------



## Dan U (Jun 16, 2016)

Brietbart furiously spinning on the MH, not political line

Fucking tragic this, poor woman and her family.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 16, 2016)

Bingo said:


> Knowing the area and having had a look at him, I reckon a vulnerable, mentally ill guy who's been taken in by all the racist shit flying around in those parts.



Many would argue that murder isn't a thing any 'sane' person does. Why are you emphasising the possibility of his poor mental health? I am not sure you mean to but you seem to be making an excuse...you know in exactly the same double standard way internalised & institutionalised racism does when a White person does some abhorrent.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jun 16, 2016)

Dan U said:


> Brietbart furiously spinning on the MH, not political line



...and thus demonising mentally ill people in general as potential murders teetering on the edge. Despicable.


----------



## Bingo (Jun 16, 2016)

nino_savatte said:


> Yes, when it's fash, mental health issues are often cited as a mitigating factor. They tried the same thing with Breivik. It turned out he was just plain fash. Now if the assailant had a 'Islamic sounding' name, many people would rush to claim he/she was an 'Islamist terrorist'. See the difference?



All these people have mental health issues, anyone who kills other people I mean. A good example is the guys who killed Lee Rigby.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 16, 2016)

Bingo said:


> All these people have mental health issues, anyone who kills other people I mean.


I think not. All soldiers are mentally ill?


----------



## nino_savatte (Jun 16, 2016)

Bingo said:


> All these people have mental health issues, anyone who kills other people I mean.


Many people with mental health issues don't kill people.


----------



## agricola (Jun 16, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> ...and thus demonising mentally ill people in general as potential murders teetering on the edge. Despicable.



That is no doubt how Breitbart will spin it.  However there is a very strong point to make that the mental health care sector has been dangerously underfunded for years.


----------



## Bingo (Jun 16, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Many would argue that murder isn't a thing any 'sane' person does. Why are you emphasising the possibility of his poor mental health? I am not sure you mean to but you seem to be making an excuse...you know in exactly the same double standard way internalised & institutionalised racism does when a White person does some abhorrent.



I'm not making an excuse, I'm just telling it how it is. I visit a lot of vulnerable people of all races and cultures because I do surveys on social housing for a living. Its sad to see how the media polarises views and gets everyone hating their neighbour.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Jun 16, 2016)

nino_savatte said:


> Many people with mental health issues don't kill people.


Which wasn't the point made 

Not saying I agree that "all people who kill have mental health issues", for what it's worth.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 16, 2016)

How long before we have the spectacle of some crass Remainarian telling us to do what Jo would have wanted?


----------



## nino_savatte (Jun 16, 2016)

Lord Camomile said:


> Which wasn't the point made
> 
> Not saying I agree that "all people who kill have mental health issues", for what it's worth.


Oh, but it _was_ the point being made.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 16, 2016)

brogdale said:


> How long before we have the spectacle of some crass Remainarian telling to do what Jo would have wanted?



Her husband has made a statement...did you miss that you callous fool?


----------



## hot air baboon (Jun 16, 2016)

....tbf characterising this man as having mental health issues hardly seems a push based on an admittedley second hand but specific details about his life and background...clearly Mr Mateen with his marriages, children, job and socialising at night clubs just doesn't form the same picture in people's minds of what anti-social mental unhealth looks like or how it manifests ( rightly or wrongly ) - I'm not entirely convinced there's anything more to it than that...

_Neighbours said he had lived there for more than 30 years - on his own for the last two decades since the deaths of his mother and grandmother.

In 2010 a Thomas Mair, then aged 46, was quoted in his local paper talking about his mental health issues._
_
Neighbours said they did not think he had a job or drove a car, and described how he would do gardening chores for local people._

Picture emerges of suspect in Jo Cox killing


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jun 16, 2016)

agricola said:


> That is no doubt how Breitbart will spin it.  However there is a very strong point to make that the mental health care sector has been dangerously underfunded for years.



I agree that mental health services are in a parlous state, but preventing people from murdering others should not be the rationale used to argue for a reversal of this situation. We should care for people as an end in itself, not out of fear of what they might do if we take our eyes off them.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 16, 2016)

brogdale said:


> How long before we have the spectacle of some crass Remainarian telling to do what Jo would have wanted?


If sensible should countrpose articulate remain woman with inarticulate murderous leave man and let people draw their own conclusions but politicians all too often do too much


----------



## brogdale (Jun 16, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Her husband has made a statement...did you miss that you callous fool?


I'm pretty sure that his dignified, composed response said no such thing?


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 16, 2016)

brogdale said:


> How long before we have the spectacle of some crass Remainarian telling to do what Jo would have wanted?


This is going to be a huge fucking boost for Remain.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 16, 2016)

brogdale said:


> I'm pretty sure that his dignified, composed response said no such thing?



He was very clear on what he thought she would have wanted. You haven't even read it have you?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jun 16, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Her husband has made a statement...did you miss that you callous fool?



But not a statement which made any mention of how people should vote in the EU referendum.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 16, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> He was very clear on what he thought she would have wanted. You haven't even read it have you?


Yes. (Perhaps best if we leave this point now?)


----------



## Lord Camomile (Jun 16, 2016)

nino_savatte said:


> Oh, but it _was_ the point being made.


Was it...?

"All people who kill have mental health issues" is quite clearly a different statement to "All people with mental health issues kill". I assume you're seeing an insinuation there that I'm not.


----------



## hot air baboon (Jun 16, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> This is going to be a huge fucking boost for Remain.



Anna Lindh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 16, 2016)

breeding the politics of hate and this happens

RIP


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 16, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> But not a statement which made any mention of how people should vote in the EU referendum.



He is a 'remainian', so was Jo. He made a statement and added what he thinks she would have wanted. My response to Brogdale is valid on those points. His post was utterly callous and pretty much the mirror of crass he projected that someone else would engage in.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 16, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> He is a 'remainian', so was Jo. He made a statement and added what he thinks she would have wanted. My response to Brogdale is valid on those points. His post was utterly callous and pretty much the mirror of crass he projected that someone else would engage in.


I'm sorry that you have that impression.
It might be fairly described as cynical, (not a descriptor I would find offensive), but not callous.


----------



## Manter (Jun 16, 2016)

She was a passionate remain advocate. Always had been. She was involved in a planned meeting to discuss what could be done about both the children under family reunion cases and the dubs amendment 'kindertransport' in the case of exit which would 'give us a massive problem' and may overturn parts completely. (paraphrasing there)

I really don't think there is any doubt what she would have wanted and anyone suggesting otherwise hasn't been keeping up! 

She wanted an end to the war in Syria, a no bomb zone, increased aid, employment opportunities for people in refugee camps especially in the Middle East, safe passage, pro immigration voices to be more vocal, remain, women's rights, Corbyn to consider his position and potentially resign..... Let's not make our own political points with her voice. She made her own political points, clearly, firmly, with charm and humour but great determination. 

The killer ended her ability to speak out so well and so passionately for what she saw as social justice; let's not try and impose our voices over her's too. Let her words and opinions speak for themselves.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 16, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> This is going to be a huge fucking boost for Remain.


Yeh. Yeh, I think this will push a load of people to 'remain'


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 16, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> He is a 'remainian', so was Jo. He made a statement and added what he thinks she would have wanted. My response to Brogdale is valid on those points. His post was utterly callous and pretty much the mirror of crass he projected that someone else would engage in.


Brogdale didn't use the death to make an argument for or against he was simply making a prediction about the political consequences of this action. 


Manter said:


> The killer ended her ability to speak out so well and so passionately for what she saw as social justice; let's not try and impose our voices over her's too. Let her words and opinions speak for themselves.


And her actions, like her abstention on the Welfare Reform and Work Bill


----------



## nino_savatte (Jun 16, 2016)

Lord Camomile said:


> Was it...?
> 
> "All people who kill have mental health issues" is quite clearly a different statement to "All people with mental health issues kill". I assume you're seeing an insinuation there that I'm not.


I'm not sure I follow you. In fact, I'd go as far as to say you're being unnecessarily pedantic.

This is not an equivocal statement, especially the clause in bold.


> All these people have mental health issues, *anyone who kills other people I mean.*


----------



## 8den (Jun 16, 2016)

Dan U said:


> Brietbart furiously spinning on the MH, not political line


CLearly modelling themselves on the American right's models.


----------



## trashpony (Jun 16, 2016)

Can I remind people that the woman's body isn't cold. Parliament has suspended campaigning. Please can we show a bit of fucking respect, just for 24 hours.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 16, 2016)

Both sides seem to be keen on claiming the other has hijacked this tragedy to make a political point.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 16, 2016)

What does this respect have to consist of? That we can't discuss the political consequences of this? That we can't mention what her politics were? Are we allowed to post anything other than RIP?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 16, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> Both sides seem to be keen on claiming the other has hijacked this tragedy to make a political point.



Same shitty tactics, different day and death.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 16, 2016)

trashpony said:


> Can I remind people that the woman's body isn't cold. Parliament has suspended campaigning. Please can we show a bit of fucking respect, just for 24 hours.


I agree with the sentiment, but the killing of an MP is a matter of political import...especially so close to the referendum.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Jun 16, 2016)

nino_savatte said:


> I'm not sure I follow you. In fact, I'd go as far as to say you're being unnecessarily pedantic.


Would be far from the first time I've been accused of that, but I honestly don't think I am. What was said and what it seems like you're suggesting was said are two very different things! To be honest, i think I may have misunderstood - to me it seemed like you were saying that "anyone who kills other people has mental health issues" is the same as saying "anyone who has mental health issues is likely to kill someone". Have I got that wrong?   



nino_savatte said:


> This is not an equivocal statement, especially the clause in bold.


Again, I'm sorry but I'm missing the point you're trying to make.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jun 16, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> Both sides seem to be keen on claiming the other has hijacked this tragedy to make a political point.



And in so doing, they have themselves hijacked this tragedy to make a political point.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 16, 2016)

trashpony said:


> Can I remind people that the woman's body isn't cold. Parliament has suspended campaigning. Please can we show a bit of fucking respect, just for 24 hours.


As I understand it 'remain' stopped, followed by 'leave', and parliament had nothing to do with it. The cessation for Remain due to loss of one of their prominent supporters and for leave to show even ukip and rw tories have some decency.


----------



## bi0boy (Jun 16, 2016)

No one has to read this thread right now if they don't want to.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 16, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> As I understand it 'remain' stopped, followed by 'leave', and parliament had nothing to do with it. The cessation for Remain due to loss of one of their prominent supporters and for leave to show even ukip and rw tories have some decency.



Nope...still posting bollocks on SM at least. 

UKIP Referendum TV Channel


----------



## nino_savatte (Jun 16, 2016)

Lord Camomile said:


> Would be far from the first time I've been accused of that, but I honestly don't think I am. What was said and what it seems like you're suggesting was said are two very different things! To be honest, i think I may have misunderstood - to me it seemed like you were saying that "anyone who kills other people has mental health issues" is the same as saying "anyone who has mental health issues is likely to kill someone". Have I got that wrong?


You didn't even bother to quote Bingo's post verbatim. Instead, you 'reported' it and in the process you altered its meaning to suit your rather spurious argument.



> Again, I'm sorry but I'm missing the point you're trying to make.



You can miss what you like. I'm not drawing you a picture.


----------



## treelover (Jun 16, 2016)

> *The Guardian view on Jo Cox: an attack on humanity, idealism and democracy *
> 
> *The Guardian view on Jo Cox: an attack on humanity, idealism and democracy | Editorial*





The Guardian has an (heavily criticised)editorial linking the killing effectively to the actions of Farage and other brexiters amongst others. yet there is still no  clear evidence for the motivations for this savage act, isn't it the G that always one mustn't jump to conclusions in these incidents.


----------



## hot air baboon (Jun 16, 2016)

...but the wheels of "the market" kept turning...

Stocks, Sterling Surge After British MP's Death | Zero Hedge


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 16, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Nope...still posting bollocks on SM at least.
> 
> UKIP Referendum TV Channel


I was unaware of that: my former opinion of that party restored.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 16, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> And in so doing, they have themselves hijacked this tragedy to make a political point.


indeed


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 16, 2016)

hot air baboon said:


> ...but the wheels of "the market" kept turning...
> 
> Stocks, Sterling Surge After British MP's Death | Zero Hedge


Lubricated once again with blood


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 16, 2016)




----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 16, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> And in so doing, they have themselves hijacked this tragedy to make a political point.


And of course this _suspension_ is itself a political act, it's ostrich stuff to pretend otherwise.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jun 16, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


>



They attempted a demo last weekend, all 15 of them, complete with UKIP-branded Leave banner. They were comprehensively run out of town.


----------



## trashpony (Jun 16, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> What does this respect have to consist of? That we can't discuss the political consequences of this? That we can't mention what her politics were? Are we allowed to post anything other than RIP?


Right now, I think so. I think point scoring is really fucking crass and hugely distasteful but go right ahead. It's never stopped urban before. Pick over her bones like the load of carrion you are


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jun 16, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> ...even ukip and rw tories have some decency.



Either that or they're smart enough to know that they need to appear decent.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Jun 16, 2016)

nino_savatte said:


> You didn't even bother to quote Bingo's post verbatim. Instead, you 'reported' it and in the process you altered its meaning to suit your rather spurious argument
> 
> You can miss what you like. I'm not drawing you a picture.


Ok, then:



> All these people have mental health issues, *anyone who kills other people I mean.*


How is that different to what I 'reported'? I changed the order to clear up the grammar a bit; to my mind gradient change the meaningful clearly you think it did.  

How is may argument spurious? I'm trying to understand your point; I explained my interpretation and asked you a pretty direct and simple question to try and clear up any misunderstanding.

I don't need you to draw me a picture, I would just appreciate you expanding on and or explaining your point so I can better understand it.


----------



## nino_savatte (Jun 16, 2016)

Lord Camomile said:


> I don't need you to draw me a picture, I would just appreciate you expanding on and or explaining your point so I can better understand it.


My point is clear. Where is the ambiguity?


----------



## dessiato (Jun 16, 2016)

Just been watching this on spanish news. It's the lead on all news programmes. The line here is that the killer was an extremist. 

RIP what seems to have a decent, honest politician.


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (Jun 16, 2016)

The world is a crazy, crazy place.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 16, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> And of course this _suspension_ is itself a political act, it's ostrich stuff to pretend otherwise.


_Not suspending_ campaigning would also have been a political act, in that case. Seems we're a little stuck on that one.

Think you've misjudged this tbh. A 24-hour suspension of campaigning, given how this happened, is pretty much the only thing they could do.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 16, 2016)

trashpony said:


> Right now, I think so. I think point scoring is really fucking crass and hugely distasteful but go right ahead. It's never stopped urban before. Pick over her bones like the load of carrion you are


that's a bit unfair. of course we're going to talk about it and the political implications


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 16, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> _Not suspending_ campaigning would also have been a political act, in that case. Seems we're a little stuck on that one.


Yeah, don't disagree with that. But it just shows this "not the time for politics" guff as nonsense


----------



## Manter (Jun 16, 2016)

I actually shouldn't have posted on this thread I am far too upset not to take some of that ^ really badly. A beautiful person was killed today- senselessly murdered. It's the logical end point of the revolting, hate filled rhetoric that British politics has senselessly descended into- and I think we should all stop and think about whether we are contributing to it, or, as her husband asked, fighting for a better world. 

RIP Jo Cox and condolences all who knew her and couldn't help but love her.


----------



## nino_savatte (Jun 16, 2016)

Lord Camomile said:


> I changed the order to clear up the grammar a bit; to my mind gradient change the meaningful clearly you think it did.


Same thing as reporting. You edited it. The process of editing changes meaning and helps to produce particular narratives.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 16, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> _Not suspending_ campaigning would also have been a political act, in that case. Seems we're a little stuck on that one.


Exactly; which exemplifies why, as much as this is a terrible personal tragedy for those close to Jo Cox,it is also a profoundly political event.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 16, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> Yeah, don't disagree with that. But it just shows this "not the time for politics" guff as nonsense


Sure. And talking about politics, this happening on the same day as Farage unveils his despicable anti-refugee banner really shows him up.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 16, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> _Not suspending_ campaigning would also have been a political act, in that case. Seems we're a little stuck on that one.
> 
> Think you've misjudged this tbh. A 24-hour suspension of campaigning, given how this happened, is pretty much the only thing they could do.


After one campaign suspended theirs anyway the other had to follow suit


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 16, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Sure. And talking about politics, this happening on the same day as Farage unveils his despicable anti-refugee banner really shows him up.


Yeh cos he's played his cards close to his chest for years


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jun 16, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


>


I like to think that maybe _an MP being assassinated on the street by a far-right activist_ might get the security services a little more active here, and these cunts might be scrambling to remove their posts. I'm not even sure of that though.


----------



## trashpony (Jun 16, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> that's a bit unfair. of course we're going to talk about it and the political implications


A woman, wife and mother has died and urban is fucking squabbling over political points. You're not respecting who she was or what she stood for.

Grim.


----------



## ffsear (Jun 16, 2016)

trashpony said:


> A woman, wife and mother has died and urban is fucking squabbling over political points. You're not respecting who she was or what she stood for.
> 
> Grim.



always the same people as well


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 16, 2016)

trashpony said:


> A woman, wife and mother has died and urban is fucking squabbling over political points. You're not respecting who she was or what she stood for.
> 
> Grim.


we're discussing something that happened today. a politician has been assassinated. why does discussing it mean we don't respect her?


----------



## William of Walworth (Jun 16, 2016)

An MP's been killed? I've only just seen any of this.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 16, 2016)

ffsear said:


> always the same people as well


Yourself excepted, like?


----------



## bluescreen (Jun 16, 2016)

William of Walworth said:


> An MP's been killed? I've only just seen any of this.


By a far right fanatic who may or may not have also been mentally disturbed.


----------



## William of Walworth (Jun 16, 2016)

Is that what obsession with immigration does to anyone? I only ask.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 16, 2016)

trashpony said:


> A woman, wife and mother has died and urban is fucking squabbling over political points. You're not respecting who she was or what she stood for.
> 
> Grim.


Don't see much political squabbling in here,actually...but if we were... that would in a sense be precisely respecting who she was & what she stood for.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 16, 2016)

bluescreen said:


> By a far right fanatic who may or may not have also been mentally disturbed.


Have those things been confirmed?


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 16, 2016)

William of Walworth said:


> Is that what obsession with immigration does to anyone? I only ask.


what?


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 16, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Have those things been confirmed?



Apparently he shouted out "put Britain first" as he attacked her.


----------



## bluescreen (Jun 16, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Have those things been confirmed?


I doubt he's going to sue me for defamation.


----------



## William of Walworth (Jun 16, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> what?




I so far know precisely *nothing*, and was only responding to the post *immediately* above mine. Leave me alone please.


----------



## trashpony (Jun 16, 2016)

I'll leave you to it. And ask you to reread Manter's post above. 

RIP Jo. You and your children deserved so much more of your life


----------



## brogdale (Jun 16, 2016)

bluescreen said:


> I doubt he's going to sue me for defamation.


I wasn't enquiring on the basis of possible litigation, just to see if there was any basis to your assertions.


----------



## William of Walworth (Jun 16, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Apparently he shouted out "put Britain first" as he attacked her.


----------



## bi0boy (Jun 16, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Apparently he shouted out "put Britain first" as he attacked her.



It was "Britain First" according to two different eyewitnesses, one reported by the Telegraph and the other by the Guardian. There were previous reports about one or both of these eyewitness in other media e.g. SkyNews apparently. The BBC have not chosen to report this yet, perhaps because they haven't been able to verify it to their satisfaction.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 16, 2016)

trashpony said:


> A woman, wife and mother has died and urban is fucking squabbling over political points. You're not respecting who she was or what she stood for.


I don't respect what she stood for. She was a Labour rightist, she stood for the "ethical" military attacks on Syria, she supported a Labour leadership candidate that who argued for further dismantling the welfare state and attacking the poor, she stood for standing back and abstaining when those on welfare were attacked.

I'm not dancing on her grave and I'm sorry for her family (if the sorrow of some anonymous bloke on a minor website means anything) but I don't respect her politics.


----------



## gosub (Jun 16, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> What does this respect have to consist of? That we can't discuss the political consequences of this? That we can't mention what her politics were? Are we allowed to post anything other than RIP?



Taking a step back for a day and breathing.

The real consequences of this are that somebody is dead,;  her husdand widowed and her children orphaned, and the background of increasingly feral binary choice before the country may or may not of contributed. Either way, a breather doesn't hurt.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 16, 2016)

ffsear said:


> always the same people as well


good to see a conservative voter join the discussion


----------



## brogdale (Jun 16, 2016)

gosub said:


> Taking a step back for a day and breathing.
> 
> The real consequences of this are that somebody is dead,;  her husdand widowed and her children orphaned, and the background of increasingly feral binary choice before the country may or may not of contributed. Either way, a breather doesn't hurt.


You're free so to do.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 16, 2016)

William of Walworth said:


> I so far know precisely *nothing*, and was only responding to the post *immediately* above mine. Leave me alone please.


eh? i was just surprised by the question. perhaps you should take some time to catch up before posting on here


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 16, 2016)

gosub said:


> Taking a step back for a day and breathing.
> 
> The real consequences of this are that somebody is dead,;  her husdand widowed and her children orphaned, and the background of increasingly feral binary choice before the country may or may not of contributed. Either way, a breather doesn't hurt.


So does this new rule apply to all politicians? Sorry but screw that, people should be courteous fine, but the idea that we have to respect the politics and lives of people simply because they die I won't accept.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 16, 2016)

gosub said:


> Taking a step back for a day and breathing.
> 
> The real consequences of this are that somebody is dead,;  her husdand widowed and her children orphaned, and the background of increasingly feral binary choice before the country may or may not of contributed. Either way, a breather doesn't hurt.


i don't recall similar things being said here when previous tragic events have occurred


----------



## trashpony (Jun 16, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> i don't recall similar things being said here when previous tragic events have occurred


When was the last time an MP who was the parent of two pre-school children shot?


----------



## seventh bullet (Jun 16, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> I don't respect what she stood for. She was a Labour rightist, she stood for the "ethical" military attacks on Syria, she supported a Labour leadership candidate that who argued for further dismantling the welfare state and attacking the poor, she stood for standing back and abstaining when those on welfare were attacked.
> 
> I'm not dancing on her grave and I'm sorry for her family (if the sorrow of some anonymous bloke on a minor website means anything) but I don't respect her politics.



Here here.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 16, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> So does this new rule apply to all politicians? Sorry but screw that, people should be courteous fine, but the idea that we have to respect the politics and lives of people simply because they die I won't accept.


yeh. i don't think anyone's put the boot into her, everyone here's been shocked at what happened, and it would be the most abject hypocrisy if posters denied their politics simply because a politician dies in tragic circumstances. i certainly wouldn't have stopped posting when ian gow or airey neave met their ends,


----------



## William of Walworth (Jun 16, 2016)

Orang Utan  : Perhaps you should stop assuming my reaction was a bad one. I'm as shocked as you probably.


----------



## J Ed (Jun 16, 2016)

If we are going to have a ban on discussing Jo Cox's politics, beliefs and political life in general then fine but if not we should be able to discuss the bad as well as the good.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 16, 2016)

trashpony said:


> When was the last time an MP who was the parent of two pre-school children shot?


is this the basis of your suggestion for a breather?


----------



## cantsin (Jun 16, 2016)

Manter said:


> I actually shouldn't have posted on this thread I am far too upset not to take some of that ^ really badly. A beautiful person was killed today- senselessly murdered. *It's the logical end point of the revolting, hate filled rhetoric that British politics has senselessly descended into*- and I think we should all stop and think about whether we are contributing to it, or, as her husband asked, fighting for a better world.
> 
> RIP Jo Cox and condolences all who knew her and couldn't help but love her.



as you have posted, have to politely disagree with this - no logic to it at all, and as the records show, in the UK at least, in no way a 'logical end point' to the Brexit referendum debate as it was / is - we have so little tradition re :  political assassinations, and have had far more toxic political climates in my life time.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 16, 2016)

William of Walworth said:


> Orang Utan  : Perhaps you should stop assuming my if reaction was a bad one. I'm as shocked as you probably.


good to have you catching up, william. sorry you come to the story late.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 16, 2016)

cantsin said:


> as you have posted, have to politely disagree with this - no logic to it at all, lone and lonely killer with MH issues murdering


the problem with logic is we all assume we have it and we rarely recognise that something may seem perfectly rational to someone else and utterly bonkers to us: the killing of captain cook, for example, where i am told that the way his ship approached the fateful island played a role in his death.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 16, 2016)

William of Walworth said:


> Orang Utan  : Perhaps you should stop assuming my reaction was a bad one. I'm as shocked as you probably.


i didn't. was just surprised that you hadn't read anything before posting here.


----------



## William of Walworth (Jun 16, 2016)

To be fair to OU, I should try and catch up properly now. 

I'm as upset as anyone that this sort of thing can happen like this.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 16, 2016)

William of Walworth said:


> To be fair to OU, I should try and catch up properly now.
> 
> I'm as upset as anyone that this sort of thing can happen like this.


no one doubts that.


----------



## William of Walworth (Jun 16, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> i didn't. was just surprised that you hadn't read anything before posting here.



Fair enough, see post 342. Will try and catch up now.


----------



## trashpony (Jun 16, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> is this the basis of your suggestion for a breather?


Yes actually kind of. I'm just being a mother I expect. Silly woman.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 16, 2016)

trashpony said:


> When was the last time an MP who was the parent of two pre-school children shot?



As the woman at Sainsbury's garage just said, "no one would give a shit if it were our MP"

Jeremy Hunt.

Would anyone be quite so upset? He has small kids too.

What happened today is fucking shocking and totally uncalled for. But to not discuss it, and that discussion has been very muted for this place, would be wrong.


----------



## Lurdan (Jun 16, 2016)

Same old same old eh. Mainstream politicians wait a 'decent interval' before openly point scoring and concentrate on brand building. In the interim petty politicians seek ways of scoring points, in particular by criticizing other people for doing so. Partisans of political ideologies project their fantasies about the agency of their own ideas into fantasies about the agency of their enemies.

Mental health issues, fringe politics, whatever else emerges over the next few days - I doubt that there are any simple or single explanations. I would be very surprised if the fact she was a woman wasn't a factor. However I doubt it's more than one element among others. And IMO masturbating over the corpse in the name of feminism would be as distasteful right now as doing so in the name of anti-fascism or to assert vacuous platitudes about the 'meeja'.



redsquirrel said:


> This is going to be a huge fucking boost for Remain.


Someone made the same point over at Guido Fawkes about an hour after she died. Congratulations. I guess that makes you six hours less of a tool.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 16, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> As the woman at Sainsbury's garage just said, "no one would give a shit if it were our MP"
> 
> Jeremy Hunt.


that made me chuckle


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 16, 2016)

trashpony said:


> Yes actually kind of. I'm just being a mother I expect. Silly woman.


i understand that this sorry story can affect people in different ways, some people more, and some people less, than me. you seem to have been more affected than many other people here, but no one's belittling the fact that a woman going about her daily work was savagely cut down in the prime of her life. from watching channel 4 news she seems to have made a great impact in a number of fields and will be widely missed. nonetheless, her untimely death comes at a crucial stage in a very important political process in which she was a prominent figure, she may well have been killed by a man who opposed everything she stood for, and this might have a great impact on both the impending referendum and the future of at least one radical right group in this country. no one stood up for that unfortunate congresswoman a year or two back and said what you're saying despite her being a mother and all, and i see no reason that we should set an arbitrary period of silence on an important and developing story.


----------



## treelover (Jun 16, 2016)

> Mental health issues, fringe politics, whatever else emerges over the next few days - I doubt that there are any simple or single explanations. I would be very surprised if the fact she was a woman wasn't a factor. However I doubt it's more than one element among others. And IMO masturbating over the corpse in the name of feminism would be as distasteful right now as doing so in the name of anti-fascism or to assert vacuous platitudes about the 'meeja'.



See the Guardian editorial posted above.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jun 16, 2016)

gosub said:


> Taking a step back for a day and breathing.
> 
> The real consequences of this are that somebody is dead,;  her husdand widowed and her children orphaned, and the background of increasingly feral binary choice before the country may or may not of contributed. Either way, a breather doesn't hurt.



Discussing a current event in a current affairs forum. How dastardly. Maybe there should be a RIP thread for those who want to mourn so as not to demand this become one?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 16, 2016)

treelover said:


> See the Guardian editorial posted above.


but what do you think?


----------



## J Ed (Jun 16, 2016)

treelover said:


> See the Guardian editorial posted above.



The editorial seems very confident in its assertions given that there is still a lot that we do not know.


----------



## treelover (Jun 16, 2016)

I think its appalling and they wouldn't have the same editorial if it had been other entities that had done the killing.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 16, 2016)

Dean Burnett's tweets on this have been sensible 
Dean Burnett (@garwboy) on Twitter


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 16, 2016)

treelover said:


> I think its appalling and they wouldn't have the same editorial if it had been other entities that had done the killing.


why do you think it's appalling?

getting a meaningful answer out of you is like getting blood from a stone.


----------



## bluescreen (Jun 16, 2016)

treelover said:


> I think its appalling and they wouldn't have the same editorial if it had been other entities that had done the killing.


What do you mean? That the editorial is appalling?


----------



## Dogsauce (Jun 16, 2016)

I feel a little bit sick inside that somewhere there will be various soulless political strategists beavering away this evening, working out how they can get the best out of this for their side. And so it goes on.


----------



## mauvais (Jun 16, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> she stood for the "ethical" military attacks on Syria


Can you elaborate on this?


----------



## William of Walworth (Jun 16, 2016)

Caught up with the whole thread now. As I sort-of posted before, I'm massively depressed about this news.

RIP Jo Cox


----------



## bluescreen (Jun 16, 2016)

Dogsauce said:


> I feel a little bit sick inside that somewhere there will be various soulless political strategists beavering away this evening, working out how they can get the best out of this for their side. And so it goes on.


I feel very sick inside knowing that there are people on the far right relishing the violence.


----------



## treelover (Jun 16, 2016)

bluescreen said:


> What do you mean? That the editorial is appalling?




because it is making massive assumptions before all the evidence is in, in essence to support its positions.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 16, 2016)

bluescreen said:


> I feel very sick inside knowing that there are people on the far right relishing the violence.


yes. but i think that if it turns out your man was in any way linked to e.g. britain first, then a shitstorm of previously unseen proportions will hit any such group. strangely politicians get rather upset when one of them gets killed, just as in a previous age kings were unhappy if someone killed one of their number.


----------



## bluescreen (Jun 16, 2016)

treelover said:


> because it is making massive assumptions before all the evidence is in, in essence to support its positions.


That it's making assumptions about someone who repeatedly shouted 'Britain First' as he shot and stabbed her?


----------



## cantsin (Jun 16, 2016)

Dogsauce said:


> I feel a little bit sick inside that somewhere there will be various soulless political strategists beavering away this evening, working out how they can get the best out of this for their side. And so it goes on.



and the likes of Seb Coe's lot, sat there thanking the skies above that they're headed for p8 of tmmrws papers despite tnite's Panorama .


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 16, 2016)

cantsin said:


> and the likes of Seb Coe's lot, sat there thanking the skies above that they're headed for p8 of tmmrws papers despite tnite's Panorama .


'a good day to bury bad news'


----------



## treelover (Jun 16, 2016)

bluescreen said:


> That it's making assumptions about someone who repeatedly shouted 'Britain First' as he shot and stabbed her?



When its confirmed then have the editorial, that was good journalism used to do.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 16, 2016)

mauvais said:


> Can you elaborate on this?


She argued for the 'ethical' use of the military, and penned a letter with Andrew Mitchell in support of such a position.


----------



## mauvais (Jun 16, 2016)

treelover said:


> that was good journalism used to do.


You could write for the Graun.

The Britain First bit is dodgy on a few counts - supposedly denied by a witness, and not necessarily the proper noun in any case. On the other hand apparently someone of that name on that area can be found on extreme right wing websites.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 16, 2016)

treelover said:


> When its confirmed then have the editorial, that was good journalism used to do.


i am repeatedly surprised that the objects of your criticism are almost without exception left wing, even on this thread where a labour member of parliament has been brutally murdered by someone who may well have been well on the right. the guardian shit thread is, i suggest, where you should pursue your current line of posting.


----------



## cantsin (Jun 16, 2016)

she sounded just like her constituents in an interview shown on news just now ....feels like a novelty in post Blair parachute-in Labour....

grim ...


----------



## mauvais (Jun 16, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> She argued for the 'ethical' use of the military, and penned a letter with Andrew Mitchell in support of such a position.


And yet spoke out on Cameron's intervention and abstained on the vote - generally regarded favourably by many. I'm not saying that it's the ideal record or anything, but seems a little more complex than you're making out.


----------



## treelover (Jun 16, 2016)

@PM

Yeah right, i'm not devastated by the savage murder of a young mother with two children, this site reaches some depths.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 16, 2016)

treelover said:


> Yeah right, i'm not devastated by the savage murder of a young mother with two children, this site reaches some depths.


i do not know how you feel about this as you have not said, being as you have effectively restricted yourself to criticising the guardian's editorial. but as your posts have almost all criticised the guardian, no, i do not believe you to be devastated.


----------



## goldenecitrone (Jun 16, 2016)

Spent a large part of her working life as an aid worker before becoming an MP. Truly disgusting that this can happen to such a wonderful person. What a waste.

RIP Jo.


----------



## J Ed (Jun 16, 2016)

#ThankYourMP is trending on twitter. Ugh. How about no?


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 16, 2016)

mauvais said:


> You could write for the Graun.
> 
> The Britain First bit is dodgy on a few counts - supposedly denied by a witness, and not necessarily the proper noun in any case. On the other hand apparently someone of that name on that area can be found on extreme right wing websites.


there were three separate witnesses, Clarke Rothwell in The Telegraph ( Labour MP Jo Cox dies after being shot and stabbed as husband urges people to 'fight against the hate' that killed her ), Aamir Tahir on Sky and Graeme Howard in The Guardian ( Suspect in MP killing described as quiet, polite and reserved )
I'm sure there will be more witnesses coming forward


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 16, 2016)

J Ed said:


> #ThankYourMP is trending on twitter. Ugh.


We have to defend our democracy don't you know.


----------



## treelover (Jun 16, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> i do not know how you feel about this as you have not said, being as you have effectively restricted yourself to criticising the guardian's editorial. but as your posts have almost all criticised the guardian, no, i do not believe you to be devastated.



post reported, sickening.


----------



## J Ed (Jun 16, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> We have to defend our democracy don't you know.



I would love to think that this was dreamed up in a smoke filled room by some evil genius PR people but it's just deferential liberals working under their own steam, isn't it?


----------



## brogdale (Jun 16, 2016)

J Ed said:


> #ThankYourMP is trending on twitter. Ugh. How about no?


Yeah, right...especially after my local shitcunt of a vermin exploited Cox's shooting to (re)broadcast the fact that there'd recently been a minor fracas at his const. office.


----------



## Hocus Eye. (Jun 16, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> i am repeatedly surprised that the objects of your criticism are almost without exception left wing, even on this thread where a labour member of parliament has been brutally murdered by someone who may well have been well on the right. the guardian shit thread is, i suggest, where you should pursue your current line of posting.


I have slowly come to the realisation that treelover's political position is close to that of the LibDems, that is to say from the right while maintaining a stance of pseudo-radicalism. That position requires being critical of the left for its own sake.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 16, 2016)

Hocus Eye. said:


> I have slowly come to the realisation that treelover's political position is close to that of the LibDems, that is to say from the right while while maintaining a stance of pseudo-radicalism. That position requires being critical of the left for its own sake.


Did you mean to quote me there?


----------



## mauvais (Jun 16, 2016)

The Spectator of all places (pro-Brexit) has a blog up putting some potential responsibility on the Leave campaign and in particular Farage. Strange times?

A Day of Infamy | Coffee House

Edit: not quite blame as I originally said


----------



## J Ed (Jun 16, 2016)

mauvais said:


> The Spectator of all places (pro-Brexit) has a blog up putting some potential responsibility on the Leave campaign and in particular Farage. Strange times?
> 
> A Day of Infamy | Coffee House
> 
> Edit: not quite blame as I originally said



“I am struggling to believe what has happened. My brother is not violent and is not all that political. I don’t even know who he votes for. He has a history of mental illness, but he has had help."

...has a real echo of what was said about the Orlando mass murderer if you replace politics for religiosity.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 16, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> there were three separate witnesses, Clarke Rothwell in The Telegraph ( Labour MP Jo Cox dies after being shot and stabbed as husband urges people to 'fight against the hate' that killed her ), Aamir Tahir on Sky and Graeme Howard in The Guardian ( Suspect in MP killing described as quiet, polite and reserved )
> I'm sure there will be more witnesses coming forward


Jo Cox MP death: Eyewitness heard man shouting - BBC News


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 16, 2016)

mauvais said:


> The Spectator of all places (pro-Brexit) has a blog up putting some potential responsibility on the Leave campaign and in particular Farage. Strange times?
> 
> A Day of Infamy | Coffee House
> 
> Edit: not quite blame as I originally said


tbh I'm rather uneasy about that reasoning. Much as I detest Farage and everything he stands for, this article seems to be telling politicians not to tell people they should be angry. It's trying to set some bounds on how bad you're allowed to say things are. That's profoundly _undemocratic_.


----------



## goldenecitrone (Jun 16, 2016)

mauvais said:


> The Spectator of all places (pro-Brexit) has a blog up putting some potential responsibility on the Leave campaign and in particular Farage. Strange times?
> 
> A Day of Infamy | Coffee House
> 
> Edit: not quite blame as I originally said





> When you shout BREAKING POINT over and over again, you don’t get to be surprised when someone breaks. When you present politics as a matter of life and death, as a question of national survival, don’t be surprised if someone takes you at your word. You didn’t make them do it, no, but you didn’t do much to stop it either.



Some scumbags will be having sleepless nights ahead of them.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 16, 2016)

goldenecitrone said:


> Some scumbags will be having sleepless nights ahead of them.


oh i do hope so


----------



## mauvais (Jun 16, 2016)

J Ed said:


> “I am struggling to believe what has happened. My brother is not violent and is not all that political. I don’t even know who he votes for. He has a history of mental illness, but he has had help."
> 
> ...has a real echo of what was said about the Orlando mass murderer if you replace politics for religiosity.


And a long pattern of radicalised individuals with people close to them having little idea. Not that this guy was necessarily radicalised - we don't know anything yet - merely that it has its potential similarities.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 16, 2016)

J Ed said:


> “I am struggling to believe what has happened. My brother is not violent and is not all that political. I don’t even know who he votes for. He has a history of mental illness, but he has had help."
> 
> ...has a real echo of what was said about the Orlando mass murderer if you replace politics for religiosity.


Guardian alleging he may be a white supremacist...


> A name matching that of the alleged suspect also appears on an extremist website. It describes him as “one of the earliest subscribers and supporters of” a certain extremist publication which is alleged to be linked to white supremacy.


----------



## mauvais (Jun 16, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> tbh I'm rather uneasy about that reasoning. Much as I detest Farage and everything he stands for, this article seems to be telling politicians not to tell people they should be angry. It's trying to set some bounds on how bad you're allowed to say things are. That's profoundly _undemocratic_.



I don't buy that. Democracy would mean you can say what you like, but no reason why you shouldn't be held accountable (to some extent) for its predictable outcomes, like shouting fire in that tired old hypothetical theatre. And if there's an actual fire then at least you can justify yourself.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 16, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Guardian alleging he may be a white supremacist...
> ​


I linked to that earlier (the website, not the article)


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 16, 2016)

mauvais said:


> I don't buy that. Democracy would mean you can say what you like, but no reason why you shouldn't be held accountable (to some extent) for its predictable outcomes, like shouting fire in that tired old hypothetical theatre. And if there's an actual fire then at least you can justify yourself.


Thing is, this can be turned on other arguments. Left arguments, for instance, saying that we're having things stolen from us and we need to claim them back, saying that certain rich sectors are exploiting us and we should be angry about that and doing something about it. Then someone goes out and kills a rich person for being rich...


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Jun 16, 2016)

mauvais said:


> The Spectator of all places (pro-Brexit) has a blog up putting some potential responsibility on the Leave campaign and in particular Farage. Strange times?
> 
> A Day of Infamy | Coffee House
> 
> Edit: not quite blame as I originally said



Alex Massie is quite hard to pigeonhole, politically.  He's usually worth a read though, if only that he can turn a phrase.


----------



## mauvais (Jun 16, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Guardian alleging he may be a white supremacist...
> ​


There's more detail on that hint if you search around - something about pro-Apartheid South African groups. On a phone so not trivial to share links.


----------



## J Ed (Jun 16, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Thing is, this can be turned on other arguments. Left arguments, for instance, saying that we're having things stolen from us and we need to claim them back, saying that certain rich sectors are exploiting us and we should be angry about that and doing something about it. Then someone goes out and kills a rich person for being rich...



I think that we are going to see a real conflation of criticism of MPs or even the system in general with the potential for violence on the back of all of this. I hope I am wrong but I'm not, am I?


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Jun 16, 2016)

It's times like this that really show up the stupid knowall-ism of those who say "all politicians are the same"


----------



## brogdale (Jun 16, 2016)

J Ed said:


> I think that we are going to see a real conflation of criticism of MPs or even the system in general with the potential for violence on the back of all of this. I hope I am wrong but I'm not, am I?


MPs are already busy re-tweeting messages of #ThankYourMP about themselves.


----------



## hash tag (Jun 16, 2016)

Simply terrible, shocking news


----------



## J Ed (Jun 16, 2016)

brogdale said:


> MPs are already busy re-tweeting messages of #ThankYourMP about themselves.



Never let a good crisis go to waste


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 16, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> tbh I'm rather uneasy about that reasoning. Much as I detest Farage and everything he stands for, this article seems to be telling politicians not to tell people they should be angry. It's trying to set some bounds on how bad you're allowed to say things are. That's profoundly _undemocratic_.


*Sometimes rhetoric has consequences. If you spend days, weeks, months, years telling people they are under threat, that their country has been stolen from them, that they have been betrayed and sold down the river, that their birthright has been pilfered, that their problem is they’re too slow to realise any of this is happening, that their problem is they’re not sufficiently mad as hell, then at some point, in some place, something or someone is going to snap. And then something terrible is going to happen.*

are those things you expect a progressive or left-wing politician or activist to be saying? 'your birthright's been stolen'? 'your country's been stolen from you', with the clear implication it's immigrants have done the stealing? yer man's saying 'populist fearmongering is a bad thing'. and it is.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 16, 2016)

mauvais said:


> There's more detail on that hint if you search around - something about pro-Apartheid South African groups. On a phone so not trivial to share links.


I dunno. It's pretty easy. 


Orang Utan said:


> Springbok Cyber Newsletter: January 2006


----------



## mauvais (Jun 16, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Thing is, this can be turned on other arguments. Left arguments, for instance, saying that we're having things stolen from us and we need to claim them back, saying that certain rich sectors are exploiting us and we should be angry about that and doing something about it. Then someone goes out and kills a rich person for being rich...


I don't doubt that. If you can be shown to have strongly encouraged such a thing, then you can be shown to have failed in some duty of care. You can be done for that today. Hell, you can be done for aiding and abetting motoring offences.

Neither your example nor Farage will ever be punished for it, because it's so abstract and removed from causation, but it doesn't put either beyond potential criticism.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 16, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Thing is, this can be turned on other arguments. Left arguments, for instance, saying that we're having things stolen from us and we need to claim them back, saying that certain rich sectors are exploiting us and we should be angry about that and doing something about it. Then someone goes out and kills a rich person for being rich...


yes. but tbh class war (for example) have been saying 'we must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live' for many years now. and i have yet to hear of one avenue, street, road, lane or indeed mews which has been devastated: though it pains me to say so. a key difference between the rhetoric of the left and of the right is that the left generally encourage mass activity and solidarity and not individualist or 'lone wolf' lunacy. i reckon when they look through yer man's stuff they'll find somewhere a copy of that essay 'leaderless resistance'.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 16, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> are those things you expect a progressive or left-wing politician or activist to be saying? 'your birthright's been stolen'? 'your country's been stolen from you', with the clear implication it's immigrants have done the stealing? yer man's saying 'populist fearmongering is a bad thing'. and it is.


'your birthright's been stolen' is exactly the kind of thing I would say. A birthright to an education and a decent place to live - things you should be able to expect as a right because you were born here. Not stolen by them foreigners, but by the rich. That nuance may well be lost, though, at some point in the future when said rich thieves are attempting to close down debate.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 16, 2016)

sim667 said:


> I think we're going to see more of this kind of thing, they've threatened to target Sadiq Khan and been holding "training camps" in Wales.



TBF, all the fascist scum from Mosley's cunts onward have given themselves boners "training" in army surplus gear on bits of woodland. It used to be so crap in the '80s that you couldn't walk through Epping Forest without tripping over assorted NF, BNP, BM and skinheads looking for Column 88.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 16, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> *Sometimes rhetoric has consequences. If you spend days, weeks, months, years telling people they are under threat, that their country has been stolen from them, that they have been betrayed and sold down the river, that their birthright has been pilfered, that their problem is they’re too slow to realise any of this is happening, that their problem is they’re not sufficiently mad as hell, then at some point, in some place, something or someone is going to snap. And then something terrible is going to happen.*
> 
> are those things you expect a progressive or left-wing politician or activist to be saying? 'your birthright's been stolen'? 'your country's been stolen from you', with the clear implication it's immigrants have done the stealing? yer man's saying 'populist fearmongering is a bad thing'. and it is.


Cameron's people must be fist-pumping at the swathes of editorials/comment in tomorrow's press/media subtly, and not so subtly, aligning today's tragedy with leavist sentiments and campaigning.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 16, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> 'your birthright's been stolen' is exactly the kind of thing I would say. A birthright to an education and a decent place to live - things you should be able to expect as a right because you were born here. Not stolen by them foreigners, but by the rich. That nuance may well be lost, though, at some point in the future when said rich thieves are attempting to close down debate.


tbh when you mention the word 'birthright' most people, i expect, are going to think of jacob and esau out the bible - the birthright as inheritance, as opposed to the sort of thing you intend, which a sane and rational society would offer all its members but which our society never yet has - you and i would, i imagine, support education funded by the state to the highest level desired as well as a decent place to live.


----------



## laptop (Jun 16, 2016)

Ranbay said:


>



"Sorry that page does not exist" here...


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 16, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Cameron's people must be fist-pumping at the swathes of editorials/comment in tomorrow's press/media subtly, and not so subtly, aligning today's tragedy with leavist sentiments and campaigning.


as i said above, i think they're likely to over-egg the pudding and would be better advised to pursue their interests by simply contrasting the savage death of a woman, a mother, who cared for people all over the world, with an oddball loner with some unsavoury political views.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 16, 2016)

Mr.Bishie said:


> The fucking cunts still stand behind their police protection though. Brave that innit? These cunts want "war", bring it on.



Come on, Bish. We *know* the dynamic: 99% big-mouthed cunts whose defence of Britain starts and ends with shouting slogans; who only ever go mob-handed, and only ever fight when they have a numerical advantage. Most of them would lock themselves in a cupboard and cry themselves into hysteria at the thought of actually fighting in any sort of "war".


----------



## bluescreen (Jun 16, 2016)

laptop said:


> "Sorry that page does not exist" here...


Did anyone manage a screen grab?


----------



## brogdale (Jun 16, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> as i said above, i think they're likely to over-egg the pudding and would be better advised to pursue their interests by simply contrasting the savage death of a woman, a mother, who cared for people all over the world, with an oddball loner with some unsavoury political views.


It's their out-riders that'll do the dirty for them.


----------



## Ranbay (Jun 16, 2016)

laptop said:


> "Sorry that page does not exist" here...



Taken down was some white pride bellend say something about how it was good she was shot etc or something


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 16, 2016)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Here's the link if it's not been posted yet - Britain First held an 'activist training camp' in the Welsh mountains
> 
> Wannabe soldiers, who were refused entry due to flat feet no doubt. Bring your fucking war.



I thought you couldn't get a free pass any more for flat feet?


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 16, 2016)

laptop said:


> "Sorry that page does not exist" here...





bluescreen said:


> Did anyone manage a screen grab?


It was some plank with a BF avatar saying some shite about Cox deserving it.


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Jun 16, 2016)

Massie's piece posted above on the Spectator site was taken down for a while, and then put back. I wonder who edited it in between...


----------



## gosub (Jun 16, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Cameron's people must be fist-pumping at the swathes of editorials/comment in tomorrow's press/media subtly, and not so subtly, aligning today's tragedy with leavist sentiments and campaigning.


Idiots if they do.  But 24hours is 24 hours


----------



## bluescreen (Jun 16, 2016)

gosub said:


> Idiots if they do.  But 24hours is 24 hours


And a week is a long time in politics.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 16, 2016)

gosub said:


> Idiots if they do.  But 24hours is 24 hours


Have you not seen the Massie piece in the Speccie?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 16, 2016)

Bingo said:


> All these people have mental health issues, anyone who kills other people I mean. A good example is the guys who killed Lee Rigby.



Not true. 
Be nice if it were, but it isn't. Perfectly sane people kill.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 16, 2016)

agricola said:


> That is no doubt how Breitbart will spin it.  However there is a very strong point to make that the mental health care sector has been dangerously underfunded for years.



Decades.


----------



## agricola (Jun 16, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> yes. but tbh class war (for example) have been saying 'we must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live' for many years now. and i have yet to hear of one avenue, street, road, lane or indeed mews which has been devastated: though it pains me to say so. a key difference between the rhetoric of the left and of the right is that the left generally encourage mass activity and solidarity and not individualist or 'lone wolf' lunacy. i reckon when they look through yer man's stuff they'll find somewhere a copy of that essay 'leaderless resistance'.



Gramsci the Dog is the only one I have ever heard of targetting the rich like that.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 16, 2016)

agricola said:


> Gramsci the Dog is the only one I have ever heard of targetting the rich like that.


quite


----------



## Maharani (Jun 16, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> Farage launched a campaign today with the same slogan as Britain First, `taking our country back`. In front of an advert, a line of what look like Syrians trying to `get into` Europe. Syrians which Jo Cox worked with.


Farage is a cunt. Bet he's quietly fucking saying 'I told you so'. Utter shitprick.


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Jun 16, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Decades.



Many, many decades. Like, all the decades.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 16, 2016)

Maharani said:


> Farage is a cunt. Bet he's quietly fucking saying 'I told you so'. Utter shitprick.


'_I told you so_' what, exactly?


----------



## Maharani (Jun 16, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> Farage launched a campaign today with the same slogan as Britain First, `taking our country back`. In front of an advert, a line of what look like Syrians trying to `get into` Europe. Syrians which Jo Cox worked with.





UrbaneFox said:


> Dreadful news. I was listening to the story on PM when suddenly they announced that she had died.
> 
> I cannot stop wondering how do you tell two small children that their mum has died.


and in such a gruesome, shocking way.  It's all over the media...how to avoid the truth of how she died? It's fucking horrendous. Why's it always the good ones this happens to?


----------



## Maharani (Jun 16, 2016)

brogdale said:


> '_I told you so_' what, exactly?


That violence would escalate if we let more immigrants in...


----------



## brogdale (Jun 16, 2016)

Maharani said:


> That violence would escalate if we let more immigrants in...


Has that occurred, then?


----------



## brogdale (Jun 16, 2016)

Jesus...


----------



## Maharani (Jun 16, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Has that occurred, then?


Nigel Farage shows shades of Enoch Powell, says Chuka Umunna


----------



## Fingers (Jun 16, 2016)

I have not read through this thread, but as much as I dislike saying this, Osbourne's speech showed some humanity, Cameron's did not.

I have worked with Jo on a few campaigns. She was ace. RIP Jo.


----------



## toblerone3 (Jun 16, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Cameron's people must be fist-pumping at the swathes of editorials/comment in tomorrow's press/media subtly, and not so subtly, aligning today's tragedy with leavist sentiments and campaigning.



Sorry [Snip]


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 16, 2016)

Maharani said:


> Nigel Farage shows shades of Enoch Powell, says Chuka Umunna



Interesting. I think Chuka's reference to Powell is a bit off, though. Powell was happy to admit being what he termed a "racialist", but Farage goes out of his way to claim he isn't (even though he is). Powell was a cunt's cunt. Farage is just a cunt.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 16, 2016)

toblerone3 said:


> Makes me think it was all a false flag.  It's a bit too neat.



Sometimes shit really is just as simple as "disturbed brexiter murders remainer", though. Just because something is "neat" or uncomplicated, doesn't mean it's black bag job.


----------



## bluescreen (Jun 16, 2016)

toblerone3 said:


> Makes me think it was all a false flag.  It's a bit too neat.


Have a word with yourself.
Brexit supporters call Jo Cox murder “left wing false flag” and blame “lying Muslims”


----------



## Maharani (Jun 16, 2016)

Fingers said:


> I have not read through this thread, but as much as I dislike saying this, Osbourne's speech showed some humanity, Cameron's did not.
> 
> I have worked with Jo on a few campaigns. She was ace. RIP Jo.


Theresa May was even worse.


----------



## toblerone3 (Jun 16, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Sometimes shit really is just as simple as "disturbed brexiter murders remainer", though. Just because something is "neat" or uncomplicated, doesn't mean it's black bag job.



I am sad about this. 

There is good information on this one going to come out, believe me.   As Chaucer said "the truth will come out"   This is bad news for the Brexiteers no doubt.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 16, 2016)

Rather than linking to dubious tweets cld people get screen grabs of them so they remain if taken down


----------



## lazythursday (Jun 16, 2016)

bluescreen said:


> Have a word with yourself.
> Brexit supporters call Jo Cox murder “left wing false flag” and blame “lying Muslims”


Interestingly they're all over the fact one witness was a Muslim - no-one seems to have noticed that one of the other witnesses, Clarke Rothwell, who also heard 'Britain First' actually appears in the leaked BNP membership lists from 2008.


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Jun 17, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Interesting. I think Chuka's reference to Powell is a bit off, though. Powell was happy to admit being what he termed a "racialist", but Farage goes out of his way to claim he isn't (even though he is). Powell was a cunt's cunt. Farage is just a cunt.



Powell, while still being a cunt's cunt, had a huge and complex intellectual hinterland. Farage is an empty suit, a slavering foghorn. a burping of boozy breath and nicotine-stained teeth over the body politic. It's a measure of the national malaise that the quality of our most prominent racist politician has declined so.


----------



## gosub (Jun 17, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Have you not seen the Massie piece in the Speccie?



I probably did before you did.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 17, 2016)

gosub said:


> I probably did before you did.



That's nice for you, Rod.


----------



## gosub (Jun 17, 2016)

Fingers said:


> I have not read through this thread, but as much as I dislike saying this, Osbourne's speech showed some humanity, Cameron's did not.
> 
> I have worked with Jo on a few campaigns. She was ace. RIP Jo.


Does sound like we lost one of the good ones (even if do disagree with her.)


----------



## gawkrodger (Jun 17, 2016)

The Southern Poverty Law Centre (kind of a yank equivalent of Searchlight for those not familiar) appear to have uncovered a bunch of evidence linking the killer to US neo-nazis

Alleged killer of British MP was a longtime supporter of the neo-Nazi National Alliance


----------



## gosub (Jun 17, 2016)

Lurdan said:


> Same old same old eh. Mainstream politicians wait a 'decent interval' before openly point scoring and concentrate on brand building. In the interim petty politicians seek ways of scoring points, in particular by criticizing other people for doing so. Partisans of political ideologies project their fantasies about the agency of their own ideas into fantasies about the agency of their enemies.
> 
> Mental health issues, fringe politics, whatever else emerges over the next few days - I doubt that there are any simple or single explanations. I would be very surprised if the fact she was a woman wasn't a factor. However I doubt it's more than one element among others. And IMO masturbating over the corpse in the name of feminism would be as distasteful right now as doing so in the name of anti-fascism or to assert vacuous platitudes about the 'meeja'.
> 
> ...



Actually DOING the reflecting helps.


----------



## Fingers (Jun 17, 2016)

toblerone3 said:


> Makes me think it was all a false flag.  It's a bit too neat.



Have you been sniffing glue or am I am I having a sarcasm failure?


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 17, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Powell was a cunt's cunt. Farage is just a cunt.



Someone should keep that line for Farage's obituary when he snuff it


----------



## bluescreen (Jun 17, 2016)

gawkrodger said:


> The Southern Poverty Law Centre (kind of a yank equivalent of Searchlight for those not familiar) appear to have uncovered a bunch of evidence linking the killer to US neo-nazis
> 
> Alleged killer of British MP was a longtime supporter of the neo-Nazi National Alliance


Wow. Thanks for that. There are still people saying let's not rush to judgment. And of course, he is at this stage only the alleged killer.


----------



## Dogsauce (Jun 17, 2016)

Every time there's a newspaper article about an EDL/Antifa ruck there's always some fuck commenting that they're 'two sides of the same coin', 'as bad as each other', as though there's some equivalence. Stuff like today's incident (plus Copeland, Breivik etc.) just highlight how full of shit they are.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Jun 17, 2016)

That Massie piece had its Boris references edited out.


----------



## laptop (Jun 17, 2016)

Vintage Paw said:


> That Massie piece had its Boris references edited out.


And Gove was in that screenshot up there but not, iirc, in the version now online.

Lawyers quick off the mark, or the proprietor?


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 17, 2016)

Jo Cox murder suspect linked to hard-right group that campaigned against the EU


----------



## gawkrodger (Jun 17, 2016)

as a mate just said, chances the OB find a copy of the Turner Diaries in his home?


----------



## editor (Jun 17, 2016)

toblerone3 said:


> Makes me think it was all a false flag.  It's a bit too neat.


Really. You're posting up this fucking paranoid false flag shit already? What was so 'neat' about her horrific murder?


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 17, 2016)

cried earlier but it wasn't for this woman. She did trigger it though. It was for someone I never met and never even went to her funeral. that skelington. Her and belushi. I didn't know why I was crying so much till I realised it was for people I should have taken the time to know better.


----------



## youngian (Jun 17, 2016)

toblerone3 said:


> Makes me think it was all a false flag.  It's a bit too neat.


You really do get some weapons grade tinfoil hat pricks on this site.


----------



## Idris2002 (Jun 17, 2016)

Has there been any suggestion that Britain First will be banned in the wake of this murder?


----------



## Celyn (Jun 17, 2016)

trashpony said:


> When was the last time an MP who was the parent of two pre-school children shot?



No idea. Would this be somehow less bad were she not the "parent of two pre-school children"?


----------



## Celyn (Jun 17, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> TBF, all the fascist scum from Mosley's cunts onward have given themselves boners "training" in army surplus gear on bits of woodland. It used to be so crap in the '80s that you couldn't walk through Epping Forest without tripping over assorted NF, BNP, BM and skinheads looking for Column 88.



And Genesis. That too.


----------



## Celyn (Jun 17, 2016)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> Powell, while still being a cunt's cunt, had a huge and complex intellectual hinterland. Farage is an empty suit, a slavering foghorn. a burping of boozy breath and nicotine-stained teeth over the body politic. It's a measure of the national malaise that the quality of our most prominent racist politician has declined so.


Or possibly quite useful or convenient to have the funny-faced jester as the public front man?


----------



## Celyn (Jun 17, 2016)

Idris2002 said:


> Has there been any suggestion that Britain First will be banned in the wake of this murder?



Interesting. Is "Britain First" an actual political party? Or is it some thing that can easily claim *not* to be any thing at all, but merely a bunch of like-minded people who like to meet for tea and scones (in places where unpleasantness might occur, in a purely accidental way)?


----------



## Buddy Bradley (Jun 17, 2016)

Celyn said:


> Interesting. Is "Britain First" an actual political party?


Yes, candidates and everything.


----------



## Celyn (Jun 17, 2016)

Oh woe.     I sort of hoped they were just a bunch of nasty nutters. Well, they are, but you see what I mean. Did they have any success anywhere with their candidates for anything?


----------



## toblerone3 (Jun 17, 2016)

toblerone3 said:


> Makes me think it was all a false flag.  It's a bit too neat.



Was just being stupid with this comment last night. It was the sight of Cameron last night night lapping it up which made me feel a bit nauseous.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 17, 2016)

Idris2002 said:


> Has there been any suggestion that Britain First will be banned in the wake of this murder?


Don't want them banned


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 17, 2016)

Vintage Paw said:


> That Massie piece had its Boris references edited out.


Has johnson said anything yet?


----------



## laptop (Jun 17, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Has johnson said anything yet?


I think what the Outers meant by "suspended campaigning" was "locked Johnson in a cupboard".


----------



## Manter (Jun 17, 2016)

cantsin said:


> as you have posted, have to politely disagree with this - no logic to it at all, and as the records show, in the UK at least, in no way a 'logical end point' to the Brexit referendum debate as it was / is - we have so little tradition re :  political assassinations, and have had far more toxic political climates in my life time.


I have had a cry and a rant and am feeling a bit calmer 

I don't just mean Brexit (though the debate is foul)- I mean the last few years where language about 'them' (Muslims, immigrants, refugees, benefits claimants) has become really divisive. 'They' are stealing our jobs, undercutting wages, 'they' are coming over here to take advantage of the NHS, 'they' have big families which put pressure on services, 'they' are taking over areas in the UK etc etc etc. Swarm, plague, invasion, etc- plus the reduction in decades old rights and protections. Even the right to claim asylum ffs- it's fundamental stuff. Gone, with barely a whisper.  
And I have refugee friends who have said over the last few years that they don't feel safe any more. There are very few, particularly the Eritreans and Sudanese, of those I know who don't have at least one terrifying story of abuse or violence. That constant rhetoric and background of disappearing rights and escalating violence is terrifying... (swap Muslim for Jew and put the pictures in black and white and you can see why Goodwin's law has been suspended). The narrative has got more and more depressing and poisonous. Racism that has been taboo has become quite common... The debate is more extreme, more polarised than I have ever seen in my lifetime... I think it's a pretty grim place we have got to.


----------



## trashpony (Jun 17, 2016)

Celyn said:


> No idea. Would this be somehow less bad were she not the "parent of two pre-school children"?


Not less bad but it's a pretty traumatic way to lose your mum


----------



## brogdale (Jun 17, 2016)

Maharani said:


> Nigel Farage shows shades of Enoch Powell, says Chuka Umunna


Farage was implying racially motivated violence, surely? Not a murder committed by someone called Tommy.


----------



## Dogsauce (Jun 17, 2016)

The sun front page is keen to emphasise the 'crazed loner' aspect. Nothing to do with us, guv.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 17, 2016)

Dogsauce said:


> The sun front page is keen to emphasise the 'crazed loner' aspect. Nothing to do with us, guv.


Just like the one they'd have produced if Tommy had been Mohammad, eh?


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Jun 17, 2016)

Thing is though, if SPLC is right about his previous involvement, Mair was linked to people who advocated 'leaderless resistance' and hence, dropping off the radar and staying away from infiltrated far-right political groups while planning such actions.

Which is an entirely different spin on 'crazed' and 'loner' than the 'nothing to do with our vigorous promotion of racial hatred guv' stuff that the right wing press is producing.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 17, 2016)

Dogsauce said:


> The sun front page is keen to emphasise the 'crazed loner' aspect. Nothing to do with us, guv.


Same relationship they had with the truth in '89 then


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 17, 2016)

Bernie Gunther said:


> Thing is though, if SPLC is right about his previous involvement, Mair was linked to people who advocated 'leaderless resistance' and hence, dropping off the radar and staying away from infiltrated far-right political groups while planning such actions.


Linked to people, yes. Was he such a person? Perhaps. But then again perhaps he was but was now tending to b.f. Half these people await a messiah anyway. And I suppose some benighted souls believe it to be golding.


----------



## JimW (Jun 17, 2016)

Some smug commenter at the SPLC site pointing out that the address for the NA subscription doesn't tally with where he's supposed to have lived with his gran. Various possible reasons it still could be him but maybe a relative?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 17, 2016)

Dogsauce said:


> The sun front page is keen to emphasise the 'crazed loner' aspect. Nothing to do with us, guv.


Bild & rudi dutschke; the sun & Jo cox


----------



## Dogsauce (Jun 17, 2016)

Bernie Gunther said:


> Thing is though, if SPLC is right about his previous involvement, Mair was linked to people who advocated 'leaderless resistance' and hence, dropping off the radar and staying away from infiltrated far-right political groups while planning such actions.



They seem to be the more dangerous sort, don't they?  It's a world away from the relatively harmless fucks whose radicalisation only extends to singing 'no surrender' on the away coach and waving banners outside Weatherspoons.  I guess if there were any pictures of them at demo they'd have surfaced by now, or some fash would have sold a story about them to the press.


----------



## bluescreen (Jun 17, 2016)

JimW said:


> Some smug commenter at the SPLC site pointing out that the address for the NA subscription doesn't tally with where he's supposed to have lived with his gran. Various possible reasons it still could be him but maybe a relative?


 The address fits. Press reports him being on the Field Head estate, which is where Lowood Lane, Batley is. Birstall's postal address is Batley as a quick google would tell anyone.


----------



## JimW (Jun 17, 2016)

Fair enough.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 17, 2016)

Dogsauce said:


> They seem to be the more dangerous sort, don't they?  It's a world away from the relatively harmless fucks whose radicalisation only extends to singing 'no surrender' on the away coach and waving banners outside Weatherspoons.  I guess if there were any pictures of them at demo they'd have surfaced by now, or some fash would have sold a story about them to the press.


Yeh. But I doubt people go straight to l.r., and apparent support for racist groups in south Africa may have been his jumping off point. Another book on his shelf: Arthur kemp's book on the awb.


----------



## Dogsauce (Jun 17, 2016)

JimW said:


> Some smug commenter at the SPLC site pointing out that the address for the NA subscription doesn't tally with where he's supposed to have lived with his gran. Various possible reasons it still could be him but maybe a relative?



Batley/Birstall are next to each other, it's possible Batley could be the post town for Birstall.  Chances of it being someone different would be near to zero, unless it's a father or something.  They seem relatively young to have been involved in anti-ANC type stuff though.


----------



## bluescreen (Jun 17, 2016)

Dogsauce said:


> Batley/Birstall are next to each other, it's possible Batley could be the post town for Birstall.  Chances of it being someone different would be near to zero, unless it's a father or something.  They seem relatively young to have been involved in anti-ANC type stuff though.


Chances of it being someone on the same estate with the same name and same interests in home made guns approaching zero. 
ETA and Batley is indeed the post town.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 17, 2016)

bluescreen said:


> The address fits. Press reports him being on the Field Head estate, which is where Lowood Lane, Batley is. Birstall's postal address is Batley as a quick google would tell anyone.


Yeh batley famously the postal town


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 17, 2016)

Dogsauce said:


> Batley/Birstall are next to each other, it's possible Batley could be the post town for Birstall.  Chances of it being someone different would be near to zero, unless it's a father or something.  They seem relatively young to have been involved in anti-ANC type stuff though.


Batley IS the postal town


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 17, 2016)

Just a (perhaps premature) thought: wonder if he husband might stand for her seat.


----------



## bluescreen (Jun 17, 2016)

Same thought occurred to me. He sounds remarkable. But as you say, premature.


----------



## Dogsauce (Jun 17, 2016)

I always remember that constituency because they used to have Elizabeth Peacock as MP back in the 80s/90s, who was one of those genuinely unhinged 'bring back the birch' tories who always got quoted in the papers.  Do they still have any of those in the party?


----------



## brogdale (Jun 17, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Just a (perhaps premature) thought: wonder if he husband might stand for her seat.


There could well be some shenanigans over this, particularly as the vermin were last night suggesting they may not contest.


----------



## bi0boy (Jun 17, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Just a (perhaps premature) thought: wonder if he husband might stand for her seat.



Didn't he quit Save the Children due to a number of allegations against him by women employed there?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 17, 2016)

bi0boy said:


> Didn't he quit Save the Children due to a number of allegations against him by women employed there?


Oh? Do tell! Tho maybe by pm or on another thread.


----------



## bi0boy (Jun 17, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Oh? Do tell! Tho maybe by pm or on another thread.



idk it was in the tabloids if I remember correctly, Google should help you.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 17, 2016)

bi0boy said:


> idk it was in the tabloids if I remember correctly, Google should help you.


Yeh it did Save The Children exec quits after women say he was 'inappropriate' for information 

Back to jc


----------



## gosub (Jun 17, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> i understand that this sorry story can affect people in different ways, some people more, and some people less, than me. you seem to have been more affected than many other people here, but no one's belittling the fact that a woman going about her daily work was savagely cut down in the prime of her life. from watching channel 4 news she seems to have made a great impact in a number of fields and will be widely missed. nonetheless, her untimely death comes at a crucial stage in a very important political process in which she was a prominent figure, she may well have been killed by a man who opposed everything she stood for, and this might have a great impact on both the impending referendum and the future of at least one radical right group in this country. no one stood up for that unfortunate congresswoman a year or two back and said what you're saying despite her being a mother and all, and i see no reason that we should set an arbitrary period of silence on an important and developing story.



Somewhere in here the other day (might have been the comments) I came across something along the lines of on 23rd June and just 23rd we are all the politicians, and they are us or something similar.  Its that exceptional binary event that makes things a bit different. I certainly feel better for sleeping on it.


----------



## belboid (Jun 17, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Farage was implying racially motivated violence, surely? Not a murder committed by someone called Tommy.


This was racially motivated violence, wasn't it?


----------



## brogdale (Jun 17, 2016)

belboid said:


> This was racially motivated violence, wasn't it?


Quite possibly, but I'd speculate not in the manner that shit-stirring Farage envisioned. I'm just reluctant to align with any view that might support dangerous posturing around the 'I told you so' message.


----------



## Dogsauce (Jun 17, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh it did Save The Children exec quits after women say he was 'inappropriate' for information
> 
> Back to jc



Ed Balls is local...


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 17, 2016)

J Ed said:


> I think that we are going to see a real conflation of criticism of MPs or even the system in general with the potential for violence on the back of all of this. I hope I am wrong but I'm not, am I?


Polly doesn't disappoint. 


> This attack on a public official cannot be viewed in isolation. It occurs against a backdrop of an ugly public mood in which we have been told to despise the political class, to distrust those who serve, to dehumanise those with whom we do not readily identify.
> ...
> It’s been part of a noxious brew, with a dangerous anti-politics and anti-MP stereotypes fomented by leave and their media backers mixed in


----------



## likesfish (Jun 17, 2016)

Afa/ and assorted facist scum brawling in the street you could make the arguement diffrent sides of same coin.

 But AfA don't have oddballs masturbating over  hitler furry porn with pipebombs crossbows and nazi daggers and prepared to go out and kill.
  Which is  the  major diffrence


----------



## belboid (Jun 17, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Quite possibly, but I'd speculate not in the manner that shit-stirring Farage envisioned. I'm just reluctant to align with any view that might support dangerous posturing around the 'I told you so' message.


Almost as if his shite had come back and bitten him on his arse. Tho not as badly as it bit Jo Cox, obviously


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 17, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> Polly doesn't disappoint.


The language used is revealing. 'those who serve'. For £75k a year. Somehow those of us (the great majority of the population) who work for considerably less than that amount are not described as 'serving'.


----------



## Dogsauce (Jun 17, 2016)

There will be some new laws along in due course.  If you oppose them you're siding with the far right or terrorists, obviously.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 17, 2016)

Britain First have called for the killer to be "strung up by the neck on the nearest lamppost".


----------



## Dogsauce (Jun 17, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Britain First have called for the killer to be "strung up by the neck on the nearest lamppost".



Presumably for the crime of sullying their name (is that possible?), not for taking down the MP.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 17, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> The language used is revealing. 'those who serve'. For £75k a year. Somehow those of us (the great majority of the population) who work for considerably less than that amount are not described as 'serving'.


the more you're paid the more you serve


----------



## D'wards (Jun 17, 2016)

The man who it was reported stated the attacker shouted "Britain First" has denied it happened. This could, however, be him protecting himself in the wake of all the shit he'll be getting from right-wingers

Cox Witness Says No One Shouted Britain First


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 17, 2016)

D'wards said:


> The man who it was reported stated the attacker shouted "Britain First" has denied it happened. This could, however, be him protecting himself in the wake of all the shit he'll be getting from right-wingers
> 
> Cox Witness Says No One Shouted Britain First



Which man? Three separate men reported this.


----------



## D'wards (Jun 17, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Which man? Three separate men reported this.


The article says Ahmed Tahir


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 17, 2016)

3 separate people were reported to have heard 'Britain First' shouted. The only Asian man out of the 3 is getting widespread abuse on right wing sites and fears for his safety.... Nothing to see here?


----------



## J Ed (Jun 17, 2016)

This hasn't been posted yet has it?



> Jo Cox, a member of the Labour Party in the British Parliament, died Thursday after an attack by a lone man who shot and stabbed her in West Yorkshire following a regular public meeting she held with constituents.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


----------



## gosub (Jun 17, 2016)

Vintage Paw said:


> That Massie piece had its Boris references edited out.



I think the right people, who can slope shoulders on the new version got to read it, Mr Massie himself, according to his twitter, is not unhappy with edit. 

There was a lot in there I agreed with. It was what wasn't, that makes me think it was a mistake.


----------



## bluescreen (Jun 17, 2016)

J Ed said:


> This hasn't been posted yet has it?


Yes, it has - the link to SPLC, anyway. And the allegation that it was a different Thomas Mair dealt with. It can bear repeating though.


----------



## gosub (Jun 17, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> 3 separate people were reported to have heard 'Britain First' shouted. The only Asian man out of the 3 is getting widespread abuse on right wing sites and fears for his safety.... Nothing to see here?



Up thread, one of the other named is apparently also on the leaked BNP database ...
Me thinks there is a lot to this story, that won't all come out in the next week.


----------



## bluescreen (Jun 17, 2016)

bluescreen said:


> Yes, it has - the link to SPLC, anyway. And the allegation that it was a different Thomas Mair dealt with. It can bear repeating though.


I hope someone has passed it on to plod, much good though it will do.


----------



## Dogsauce (Jun 17, 2016)

Weird that the SPLC go with 'lone man' rather than just 'man'.  The former is a bit of a loaded term.


----------



## sim667 (Jun 17, 2016)

laptop said:


> "Sorry that page does not exist" here...


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 17, 2016)

gosub said:


> Up thread, one of the other named is apparently also on the leaked BNP database ...
> Me thinks there is a lot to this story, that won't all come out in the next week.


it doesn't matter in the short term. i think 'possibly fascist brexit loner kills remain mp' turns the referendum to remain. yeh, more will come out, and i think it will hurt ukip, but the damage has been done to brexit and i don't think it can be undone.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 17, 2016)

Dogsauce said:


> Weird that the SPLC go with 'lone man' rather than just 'man'.  The former is a bit of a loaded term.


The SPLC has a long and well deserved reputation for seeing - often unsustainably - far-right networks and organisations behind a wide range of things. If they see the opp to do that they usually do. That they haven't here is probably because it's happened 1000s of miles away from their usual territory and they have scant info so just went with the basic facts of the attacker being alone. I don't think there's any reason to suspect downplaying of possible wider connections in this case. Not a chance. It would be like HnH or Searchlight downplaying the racist aspects to BF or something.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 17, 2016)

toblerone3 said:


> I am sad about this.
> 
> There is good information on this one going to come out, believe me.   As Chaucer said "the truth will come out"   This is bad news for the Brexiteers no doubt.



Your info is probably the same as my info, but the way you're reading it is different.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 17, 2016)

toblerone3 said:


> I am sad about this.
> 
> There is good information on this one going to come out, believe me.   As Chaucer said "the truth will come out"   This is bad news for the Brexiteers no doubt.


Do you mean "murder will out"?


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 17, 2016)

London Black Revs seem to be suggesting Mair may have known Terence Gavan, the BNP bomb maker:
Tommy Mair lived 5 minutes away from West Yorkshire Nail Bomber Terence Gavan and Neo-Nazi Bomb-Making Books


----------



## teqniq (Jun 17, 2016)

So to recap (for myself from reading through this thread) I wouldn't have agreed with all her politics but still there's some stuff she supported that I could agree with namely the refugee situation, she seems to have been highly thought of by people in her constituency, she leaves two very young kids and a husband with no mum and partner. Sad, sad sad. 

Meanwhile the level of sympathy from the far right is somewhat non-existent. If this is anything to go by all they are interested in is damage limitation and suchlike.







also it turns out that Mair isn't the only person to have an interest in the Springbok club, a certain Neil Hamilton now a UKIP Mep spoke at one of their meetings in 1998.


----------



## gosub (Jun 17, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> it doesn't matter in the short term. i think 'possibly fascist brexit loner kills remain mp' turns the referendum to remain. yeh, more will come out, and i think it will hurt ukip, but the damage has been done to brexit and i don't think it can be undone.



Unfortunately I probably agree.  But this could just as easily have been a guy in Ruislip up to his neck in debt..only I don't know how often that MP does surgeries.

And in truth this referendum would neither, in itself,  lead to a reduction in immigration nor a crash of the economy.  And I think,collective responsibility of Parliament would see us through. 
The outers will push the mental illness aspect, (it certainly deified sanity to carry out that act at that point in time), but would that blithe dismissal stand  if the pernicious deed had happened in 2 weeks time, after a remain vote?

It is going to take a lot to unwind the tensions particularly since the underlying malaise(s) will still be there. Time for some sobering up.


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Jun 17, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> London Black Revs seem to be suggesting Mair may have known Terence Gavan, the BNP bomb maker:
> Tommy Mair lived 5 minutes away from West Yorkshire Nail Bomber Terence Gavan and Neo-Nazi Bomb-Making Books



... bit circumstantial.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 17, 2016)

teqniq said:


> So to recap (for myself from reading through this thread) I wouldn't have agreed with all her politics but still there's some stuff she supported that I could agree with namely the refugee situation, she seems to have been highly thought of by people in her constituency, she leaves two very young kids and a husband with no mum and partner. Sad, sad sad.
> 
> Meanwhile the level of sympathy from the far right is somewhat non-existent. If this is anything to go by all they are interested in is damage limitation and suchlike.
> 
> ...


If you pull at that string you'll find tons of tories involved in the same circles - Liam Fox, Harvey Proctor etc


----------



## J Ed (Jun 17, 2016)

What is this? Who is this person in the tweet sim667 ?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 17, 2016)

teqniq said:


> also it turns out that Mair isn't the only person to have an interest in the Springbok club, a certain Neil Hamilton now a UKIP Mep spoke at one of their meetings in 1998.


nh was on the executive committee of the auld monday club too of course


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 17, 2016)

J Ed said:


> What is this? Who is this person in the tweet sim667 ?


which person d'you mean?


----------



## sim667 (Jun 17, 2016)

J Ed said:


> What is this? Who is this person in the tweet sim667 ?



Its a screen grab of the removed tweet bob posted


----------



## J Ed (Jun 17, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> which person d'you mean?



Jo Cox MP shot and stabbed in the street - now confirmed dead


----------



## Dogsauce (Jun 17, 2016)

Bernie Gunther said:


> ... bit circumstantial.



There's a lot of fash in West Yorkshire, particularly Calderdale.  Plenty of old mill towns that have gone down the shitter, ripe for exploiting divisions.  

There's a few of the regulars commenting on the Yorkshire Evening Post site, keen to point out the vile, disgusting slurs made against them by vile disgusting leftists are baseless, definitely just a loner.  Dragging a 5ft women to the ground by her hair, stabbing her, kicking her on the ground and shooting her in the face is less worthy of condemnation.


----------



## hot air baboon (Jun 17, 2016)

bluescreen said:


> Yes, it has - the link to SPLC, anyway. And the allegation that it was a different Thomas Mair dealt with.



....it had his address on the invoices didn't it...?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 17, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Jo Cox MP shot and stabbed in the street - now confirmed dead


oh right, "@BiGSH0TROB" - Google Search


----------



## bluescreen (Jun 17, 2016)

[


hot air baboon said:


> ....it had his address on the invoices didn't it...?


It did. And some bright spark commenting on SPLC was alleging that it was wrong because Batley, but it ties in with what we know about Mair from the press, living on the Field Head estate, and Birstall is in Batley postal district. ('Postal', as Pickman's model pointed out. )


----------



## brogdale (Jun 17, 2016)

Apols for clogging the thread with this shit, but wtf...the timeline of this shitcunt's tweets....

Gavin Barwell MP (@GavinBarwellMP) on Twitter


----------



## nino_savatte (Jun 17, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Apols for clogging the thread with this shit, but wtf...the timeline of this shitcunt's tweets....
> 
> Gavin Barwell MP (@GavinBarwellMP) on Twitter


This is the same Gavin Barwell who's being investigated for election expenses fraud. Oh aye. Fucking halfwit that he is.


----------



## bluescreen (Jun 17, 2016)

The Guardian is running with the SPLC story now.


----------



## J Ed (Jun 17, 2016)

I wonder what the possibility is of this murderer being a member of one of the smaller far-right groups, given the SPLC link I think it is a lot more likely than membership of say Britain First.


----------



## hot air baboon (Jun 17, 2016)

..doesn't seem like the joining type...pretty anti-social personality disorder by the look of it...


----------



## J Ed (Jun 17, 2016)

hot air baboon said:


> ..doesn't seem like the joining type...pretty anti-social personality disorder by the look of it...



Yes but these days it isn't necessary to meet with people to be a member of a group, he could join with and coordinate something like this with people without ever being in the same room as them.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 17, 2016)

hot air baboon said:


> ..doesn't seem like the joining type...pretty anti-social personality disorder by the look of it...


yeh cos anti-social people frequently volunteer to do the gardens of their neighbours
and we know that everyone in a group is gregarious and outgoing


----------



## laptop (Jun 17, 2016)

...by seeking to destroy almost everything the _Telegraph_ stands for...


----------



## hot air baboon (Jun 17, 2016)

...gardening's a pretty solitary activity though, whilst allowing some kind of residual need for a place within or contact with a community to be fulfilled ....


----------



## Dogsauce (Jun 17, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Yes but these days it isn't necessary to meet with people to be a member of a group, he could join with and coordinate something like this with people without ever being in the same room as them.



If he was involves with any of the mainstream groups (BNP / EDL / BF) one of them would have outed him by now for the tabloid cash.  There's a few other weird patriot groups up this way like BPP that are more likely to be a match.  I suspect plod are going through his computer as we speak, it'll come out in due course.  I kind of hope that if he has written some kind of self-justifying manifesto that it's not made public yet, just to piss the cunt off.


----------



## billy_bob (Jun 17, 2016)

The Orlando incident was being described as a terrorist act at a much earlier stage than this story has now reached, on no less patchy evidence of actual participation in the corresponding extremist organisations. Odd, that.


----------



## nino_savatte (Jun 17, 2016)

In the meantime, it's worth remembering that only recently two Tory MPs were criticised for addressing a meeting of the Swinton Circle, which is sometimes described as a "Tory fringe group". It has connections to the Springbok Club, the Monday Club and I wouldn't be surprised if there was some overlap between them and the Western Goals Institute.
Senior Conservatives in spotlight over speeches to ‘vile’ rightwing fringe group


----------



## teqniq (Jun 17, 2016)

Interesting point. This person has listed listed recent attacks on ethnic minorities.


----------



## bi0boy (Jun 17, 2016)

.


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Jun 17, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Yes but these days it isn't necessary to meet with people to be a member of a group, he could join with and coordinate something like this with people without ever being in the same room as them.





> The very high percentage of lone wolf and leaderless attacks and the declining number of groups on the radical right might suggest to some that the importance of the larger radical milieu is declining. But in fact, the groups and their ideologues provide the essential ideology that motivates the lone wolves and others. Today, that ideology is far less likely to come in publications or at group meetings. Instead, it lives on the Internet, always available and always dangerous.



Lone Wolf Report


----------



## teqniq (Jun 17, 2016)

Which gives plenty of scope to downplay it as a lone deranged nutter.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 17, 2016)

Bernie Gunther said:


> Lone Wolf Report


Interesting that this follows their searchlight/gable comrades version of the same lone wolf report for Europe a few years back. The argument actually is that line wolf attacks aren't really lone wolf attacks, but part of a wider coordinated far right strategy.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 17, 2016)

teqniq said:


> Which gives plenty of scope to downplay it as a lone deranged nutter.


either more will come out today or over the weekend about what the cops found in his home or it will be buried until after the referendum


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Jun 17, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> <snip> The argument actually is that line wolf attacks aren't really lone wolf attacks, but part of a wider coordinated far right strategy.



Sure, which is certainly what the various people on the far-right advocating this kind of thing seem to have in mind. 

Edited to add, although I guess a lot depends on what 'coordinated' means here.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jun 17, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Interesting that this follows their searchlight/gable comrades version of the same lone wolf report for Europe a few years back.


A report developed in concert with Dave Veness


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 17, 2016)

i see the standard's on the ball


----------



## billy_bob (Jun 17, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Interesting that this follows their searchlight/gable comrades version of the same lone wolf report for Europe a few years back. The argument actually is that line wolf attacks aren't really lone wolf attacks, but part of a wider coordinated far right strategy.



I would be surprised if the more intellectually inclined (I'm avoiding saying 'intelligent') elements of certain far right groups weren't aware of the standard theories on racist attacks, which tend to stress the fallacy of the 'one bad apple' idea. Perpetrators are at the centre of radiating circles of influence, all of which have to be providing more or less explicit/tacit support, in the eyes of the perpetrator, for the views that they're acting out violently, even if not for the violent act itself.

If you're quite happy to see an increase in violence motivated by racism, or by far right ideology, but don't want your own group too directly associated with it, this is useful to know.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 17, 2016)

Bernie Gunther said:


> Sure, which is certainly what the various people on the far-right advocating this kind of thing seem to have in mind.


Yep, just pointing out for some readers here who may not be familiar with splc or searchlight that when they use the term lone wolf, they most certainly do not mean unconnected, and are using it as part of a developed vocabulary concerning dense far right connections.


----------



## AnandLeo (Jun 17, 2016)

Terrible tragedy.


----------



## rutabowa (Jun 17, 2016)

billy_bob said:


> The Orlando incident was being described as a terrorist act at a much earlier stage than this story has now reached, on no less patchy evidence of actual participation in the corresponding extremist organisations. Odd, that.


I don't think this is quite true. Isis claimed responsibility for the shooting in Orlando very quickly, I doubt any group will ever come forward to claim this.


----------



## frogwoman (Jun 17, 2016)

Yeah and the guy claimed allegiance to isis in his 911 call.


----------



## frogwoman (Jun 17, 2016)

rutabowa said:


> I don't think this is quite true. Isis claimed responsibility for the shooting in Orlando very quickly, I doubt any group will ever come forward to claim this.



Exactly, far right groups don't usually seem to claim claim responsibility for stuff.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 17, 2016)

frogwoman said:


> Exactly, far right groups don't usually seem to claim claim responsibility for stuff.


specially if they're registered as political parties.


----------



## hot air baboon (Jun 17, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Yep, just pointing out for some readers here who may not be familiar with splc or searchlight that when they use the term lone wolf, they most certainly do not mean unconnected, and are using it as part of a developed vocabulary concerning dense far right connections.




....interesting...so "lone-wolf" as a tactic - effectively a terrorist cell-of-one vs lone wolf as some sort of self-radicalised & sexed up version of the lone nut...


----------



## rutabowa (Jun 17, 2016)

frogwoman said:


> Exactly, far right groups don't usually seem to claim claim responsibility for stuff.


right... and I don't want to speculate about this case at all really as noone knows yet, but I don't think it is helpful to imply that the media jumped to terrorist conclusions about the the orlando story but are burying that side of this story; when actually the isis links to orlando were totally explicit right from very early on.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 17, 2016)

The article butchers linked to earlier: Britain First denies involvement in Jo Cox killing



> Paul Golding, the group’s leader, ... said the words 'Britain First' could have been taken out of context by the media.
> 
> “We’re in the middle of a referendum campaign. What this person said - was he referring to an organisation? Was this person referring to a slogan? Was he just shouting out in the middle of an EU debate: ‘It’s time we put Britain first?’



I hope he's as circumspect the next time a terrorist shouts "Allahu akbar", and will suggest he might have been shouting out "These are wonderful chips Allahu akbar". 

Presumably the bloke's web browser history will be made public.


----------



## frogwoman (Jun 17, 2016)

rutabowa said:


> right... and I don't want to speculate about this case at all really as noone knows yet, but I don't think it is helpful to imply that the media jumped to terrorist conclusions about the the orlando story but are burying that side of this story; when actually the isis links to orlando were totally explicit right from very early on.



I agree. While he doesn't appear to have been a member or had many organisational links he obviously had at the very least some confused sympathy with jihadist ideology.


----------



## billy_bob (Jun 17, 2016)

rutabowa said:


> right... and I don't want to speculate about this case at all really as noone knows yet, but I don't think it is helpful to imply that the media jumped to terrorist conclusions about the the orlando story but are burying that side of this story; when actually the isis links to orlando were totally explicit right from very early on.



i. claiming responsibility for and being responsible for aren't always the same thing of course
ii. I'm not suggesting we'd be better off if the media/security services _were _making hastier judgements in this case. But if it turns the far right connection is stronger than a loner's vague sympathies, do you think we're likely to see it widely described as terrorism? I don't - I'd be happy to be proven wrong in due course, but there's a record of inconsistency on this when it comes to far right-linked violence.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 17, 2016)

billy_bob said:


> i. claiming responsibility for and being responsible for aren't always the same thing of course
> ii. I'm not suggesting we'd be better off if the media/security services _were _making hastier judgements in this case. But if it turns the far right connection is stronger than a loner's vague sympathies, do you think we're likely to see it widely described as terrorism? I don't - I'd be happy to be proven wrong in due course, but there's a record of inconsistency on this when it comes to far right-linked violence.


no. there is a record of _consistency_ when it comes to right-linked violence, in that it is treated much less seriously than e.g. left-linked violence (i think we all recall lunatic reporting about e.g. wombles in the dublin sewers, anarchists with samurai swords, etc) or islamist violence.


----------



## billy_bob (Jun 17, 2016)

two sheds said:


> The article butchers linked to earlier: Britain First denies involvement in Jo Cox killing
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Totally right to be sceptical about Golding's comments, but aside from the fact he's obviously got a vested interest in the way we interpret Mair's words, the possible version/interpretation he's suggesting isn't in itself that unlikely, is it? If I was Golding I wouldn't have said it, because he'll look more of a cunt if it does turn out Mair was in any way actively supporting BF.


----------



## classicdish (Jun 17, 2016)

Saw someone post the following on reddit yesterday. It is impossible to tell how genuine or reliable this post is as opposed to either invention or repeating local gossip, but I thought people here might find it interesting:


> Acehole_Rimmer
> 
> Local here, street away from the murderer and down the road from the amazing Jo Coxs surgery.
> 
> ...


 



> Dream_Lake "Well this makes an awful lot of sense. If this is true and you knew of the man, maybe get in touch with the press. Unless you enjoy them making it about the EU referendum."
> 
> Acehole_Rimmer "They know this, the journalists buzzing around our estate know him better in the few hours they spent here than I did in the 8 years of living downwind of him. They have their agendas and they will continue to push them regardless of the facts they have learnt here.
> 
> ...


----------



## billy_bob (Jun 17, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> no. there is a record of _consistency_ when it comes to right-linked violence, in that it is treated much less seriously than e.g. left-linked violence (i think we all recall lunatic reporting about e.g. wombles in the dublin sewers, anarchists with samurai swords, etc) or islamist violence.



Yes, I meant inconsistency between the way one is treated and the way the other (and 'Islamist' violence) is treated.


----------



## hot air baboon (Jun 17, 2016)

....these western-based recruits to violent jihadism seem so strikingly similar to those that end up on the similar fringe of the far right that to a layman it almost seems we are looking at two aspects of pretty much the same phenomenon -  ( that may be crap though  - although I think Hope Not Hate subscribe to a broadly similar perspective  )


----------



## emanymton (Jun 17, 2016)

teqniq said:


> Interesting point. This person has listed listed recent attacks on ethnic minorities.



Also the first MP, I wonder which is the bigger factor in determining the amount of press coverage?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 17, 2016)

billy_bob said:


> Yes, I meant inconsistency between the way one is treated and the way the other (and 'Islamist' violence) is treated.


again, there has been no inconsistency in many years - look at e.g. the way loyalist violence was reported in the media as compared to republican violence. 'pro-state' violence is reported much more leniently than 'anti-state' violence.


----------



## rutabowa (Jun 17, 2016)

billy_bob said:


> Yes, I meant inconsistency between the way one is treated and the way the other (and 'Islamist' violence) is treated.


I'm not sure. That french guy who was arrested in the ukraine the other week was referred to as a terrorist in all the news reports I read. 

I don't think anyone can deny that isis are definitely top of the terrorist league as an organisation right now though... they are in the news a lot because there are actually a lot of major attacks linked to them. News outlets can't really ignore that.


----------



## teqniq (Jun 17, 2016)

billy_bob said:


> Yes, I meant inconsistency between the way one is treated and the way the other (and 'Islamist' violence) is treated.


Piece by Craig Murray on this

The Sad Death of Jo Cox, and What is Terrorism? - Craig Murray


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 17, 2016)

rutabowa said:


> I'm not sure. That french guy who was arrested in the ukraine the other week was referred to as a terrorist in all the news reports I read.


not domestic though, you see. 



> I don't think anyone can deny that isis are definitely top of the terrorist league as an organisation right now though... they are in the news a lot because there are actually a lot of major attacks linked to them. News outlets can't really ignore that.


pictures of burning pilots sell papers, to paraphrase chumbawamba


----------



## laptop (Jun 17, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> no. there is a record of _consistency_ when it comes to right-linked violence, in that it is treated much less seriously than e.g. left-linked violence (i think we all recall lunatic reporting about e.g. wombles in the dublin sewers, anarchists with samurai swords, etc) or islamist violence.


I was wondering why the Daily Heil front page wasn't on Newspaper headlines: Jo Cox killing, Cliff Richard cleared and England's 'great escape' - BBC News today.

It does have a truly revolting picture of a once-popular singer.

And it has "murdered by a loner with a history of mental illness".

Which is contempt of court... soon, at least... and contemptible... _now_.


----------



## rutabowa (Jun 17, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> pictures of burning pilots sell papers, to paraphrase chumbawamba


Sure... do you not think it is Actually quite big news too, tho? or is it all just a fuss over nothing manufactured by the media?


----------



## billy_bob (Jun 17, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> again, there has been no inconsistency in many years - look at e.g. the way loyalist violence was reported in the media as compared to republican violence. 'pro-state' violence is reported much more leniently than 'anti-state' violence.



I think you're making a semantic point and in fact we're agreeing.

One has been reported more leniently than the other, even though they're superficially similar, based who's perpetrating/a victim of it - there's the inconsistency. That has always been the case - there's the consistency.


----------



## albionism (Jun 17, 2016)

Appalling as it is, imagine if it had been a leftie killing a Tory. The newspapers would be full of Anarchist Threat this and Red Terror that.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 17, 2016)

rutabowa said:


> Sure... do you not think it is Actually quite big news too, tho? or is it all just a fuss over nothing manufactured by the media?


if you compare the coverage of kurdish / turkish violence over the past 30 years to the coverage of isis over the past two, you'll see that there has been intensive coverage of the one and comparatively insignificant coverage of the other, even though you'd have thought that an insurgency in an strategically important nato member would receive considerable attention. just because something is important doesn't make it Big News.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 17, 2016)

billy_bob said:


> I think you're making a semantic point and in fact we're agreeing.
> 
> One has been reported more leniently than the other, even though they're superficially similar, based who's perpetrating/a victim of it - there's the inconsistency. That has always been the case - there's the consistency.


treated consistently but not equally.


----------



## billy_bob (Jun 17, 2016)

rutabowa said:


> I'm not sure. That french guy who was arrested in the ukraine the other week was referred to as a terrorist in all the news reports I read.



Actually, I think the news reports in this country (the ones I saw, anyway) were quite careful to display some scepticism about the Ukrainian claim that that guy was a terrorist. There was a fairly clear implication that Ukraine _could _be trumping that up, because 'we've caught a terrorist' looks better than the other possibility: 'if you want to acquire large quantities of assault weapons and then sell them on the black market, Ukraine's the place to be'.



rutabowa said:


> I don't think anyone can deny that isis are definitely top of the terrorist league as an organisation right now though... they are in the news a lot because there are actually a lot of major attacks linked to them. News outlets can't really ignore that.



I don't think anyone has denied that? But the mismatch in willingness to label different acts 'terrorist' (depending as Pickman's said on whether it's targeted at or by the state, but also on the colour/faith of the perps) pre-dates ISIS and I suspect will survive it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 17, 2016)

white privilege in action: although, on reflection, i would not be surprised if part of the thought behind it was that if more is made of it the level of disaffection in this country would need to be talked about, people disaffected and right-wing, people disaffected and left-wing, people disaffected and islamist, people disaffected and anomic...


----------



## laptop (Jun 17, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> if you compare the coverage of kurdish / turkish violence over the past 30 years to the coverage of isis over the past two...
> ...just because something is important doesn't make it Big News.



_Rarity_ and _newness_ do (as you know) make Big News.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 17, 2016)

laptop said:


> _Rarity_ and _newness_ do (as you know) make Big News.


after the 32nd snuff movie issued by isis you'd have thought the novelty and indeed the rarity would have worn off.


----------



## hot air baboon (Jun 17, 2016)

BREAKING NEWS: Terror probe into murder of Labour MP Jo Cox

COUNTER-TERRORISM police have been called in to investigate the murder of Labour MP Jo Cox, according to reports.

Officers who specialise in politically-motivated are said to be working with West Yorkshire Police, but are not leading the investigation.

That are said to be working on the case because of their specialist skills, according to ITV News.

West Yorkshire Police highlighted this is an ongoing invesitgation and refused to comment on counter-terror unit involvement when contacted by Express.co.uk.

However it suggests invesitgators have not ruled out that the incident was an act of terrorism.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 17, 2016)

hot air baboon said:


> BREAKING NEWS: Terror probe into murder of Labour MP Jo Cox
> 
> COUNTER-TERRORISM police have been called in to investigate the murder of Labour MP Jo Cox, according to reports.
> 
> ...


a police source said today the counter-terrorism command were only called in after reading a discussion on the consistency of counter-terror policing on the internet.


----------



## frogwoman (Jun 17, 2016)

I wonder what Britain First are doing in those training camps...


----------



## brogdale (Jun 17, 2016)

Tories will not contest by...


----------



## rutabowa (Jun 17, 2016)

frogwoman said:


> I wonder what Britain First are doing in those training camps...


watching the euros on TV and pretending they wish they were there fighting the russian hooligans.


----------



## kebabking (Jun 17, 2016)

frogwoman said:


> I wonder what Britain First are doing in those training camps...



Learning how to run in different directions while stripping off and and deleting their internet browsers?


----------



## laptop (Jun 17, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> after the 32nd snuff movie issued by isis you'd have thought the novelty and indeed the rarity would have worn off.



My formula was incomplete. It's something like:
(rarity + newness) * (fear-factor) * (reader-ability-to-put-themselves-in-victim's-place)

The first term accounts for slaughter on the roads going unremarked.
The last term accounts for one death in Burslem being worth 1000 in Bankok.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 17, 2016)

kebabking said:


> Learning how to run in different directions while stripping off and and deleting their internet browsers?


and changing their trousers


----------



## two sheds (Jun 17, 2016)

If what classicdish posted up is correct it looks like she's another victim of austerity, with the additional pressures the killer was under being deflected/directed against her because of hatred of refugees whipped up by far right websites.


----------



## editor (Jun 17, 2016)

The BBC live report shows flowers around the market square looked on almost entirely by the press. I'd imagine some locals might be put off leaving any more flowers for fear of a paparazzi style camera onslaught. It's not a very dignified scene.


----------



## gosub (Jun 17, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> a police source said today the counter-terrorism command were only called in after reading a discussion on the consistency of counter-terror policing on the internet.



He got the bullets from somewhere.


----------



## belboid (Jun 17, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Tories will not contest by...



Was just discussing whether they would, they were fucking fuming after parties stood against whoever it was put up after Ian Gow - even more so when they won. 

We assumed the libscum wouldn't stand, purely out of 'respect' obviously


----------



## hot air baboon (Jun 17, 2016)

.....did the Copeland bombings lead to any groups being shut down or any legal fall-out for any far right agitators ? ....I don''t recall any off hand...he had pretty cast iron links / membership cards to actual groups etc...


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 17, 2016)

frogwoman said:


> I wonder what Britain First are doing in those training camps...


burning sausages, playing dress up and learning how to knife fight by the looks of it


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 17, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Tories will not contest by...



how noble of them


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 17, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> burning sausages, playing dress up and learning how to knife fight by the looks of it


too few scars


----------



## hot air baboon (Jun 17, 2016)

rutabowa said:


> watching the euros on TV and pretending they wish they were there fighting the russian hooligans.



...wasn't it Russian far right hooligans coming over to run the para-military antics at these camps...


----------



## bi0boy (Jun 17, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> how noble of them



Apparently "as a mark of respect to a much-loved and respected politician"

Should we only have by-elections in future if the MP who dies is a much-hated and disrespected politician


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 17, 2016)

hot air baboon said:


> .....did the Copeland bombings lead to any groups being shut down or any legal fall-out for any far right agitators ? ....I don''t recall any off hand...he had pretty cast iron links / membership cards to actual groups etc...


 
copeland in background with john tyndall


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 17, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> View attachment 88543
> copeland in background with john tyndall


Has Tyndall had a problem with a defective ketchup bottle?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 17, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> Has Tyndall had a problem with a defective ketchup bottle?


no, that's claret


----------



## hot air baboon (Jun 17, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> Has Tyndall had a problem with a defective ketchup bottle?



...and he'd wanted the English mustard...


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jun 17, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> learning how to knife fight



Ruler fencing more like


----------



## teqniq (Jun 17, 2016)

Unsurprisingly


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 17, 2016)

Any more on this?


----------



## bluescreen (Jun 17, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> The SPLC has a long and well deserved reputation for seeing - often unsustainably - far-right networks and organisations behind a wide range of things. If they see the opp to do that they usually do. That they haven't here is probably because it's happened 1000s of miles away from their usual territory and they have scant info so just went with the basic facts of the attacker being alone. I don't think there's any reason to suspect downplaying of possible wider connections in this case. Not a chance. It would be like HnH or Searchlight downplaying the racist aspects to BF or something.


Something that's been bugging me is how SPLC got their hands on these invoices. Do they have an archive of NA transactions, carefully indexed? These invoices are pre-electronic.They look genuine enough. I'm impressed but puzzled.

Btw, I note that according to the Graun the BBC is now reporting that it _isn't_ a home made gun as witnesses had suggested - but the plods aren't saying anything: 'A spokeswoman for West Yorkshire Police refused to confirm the report. “This is not something that has come for [_sic_] us. All we have said is that weapons including a firearm have been recovered. We are not getting into what type of firearm it is.” '


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 17, 2016)

bluescreen said:


> Something that's been bugging me is how SPLC got their hands on these invoices. Do they have an archive of NA transactions, carefully indexed? These invoices are pre-electronic.They look genuine enough. I'm impressed but puzzled.
> 
> Btw, I note that according to the Graun the BBC is now reporting that it _isn't_ a home made gun as witnesses had suggested - but the plods aren't saying anything: 'A spokeswoman for West Yorkshire Police refused to confirm the report. “This is not something that has come for [_sic_] us. All we have said is that weapons including a firearm have been recovered. We are not getting into what type of firearm it is.” '


They have a massive archive and software to just check it through. As to ho they got them - usual ways, spies, turncoats, paid informers etc


----------



## two sheds (Jun 17, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> the problem with logic is we all assume we have it and we rarely recognise that something may seem perfectly rational to someone else and utterly bonkers to us: the killing of captain cook, for example, where i am told that the way his ship approached the fateful island played a role in his death.



I think Cook's crew sponging off the islanders for food in the previous month had a lot to do with it, too (the Hawaiians were incredibly hospitable but even they had eventually been quite pleased to get rid of the ship and weren't keen to have it back), along with him kidnapping one of their kings. Cook seems to have been killed just after the king realized what was happening to him. 

I thought that they'd killed a Hawaiian that day too, but couldn't see that when I just tried to check. And I don't think the spreading of venereal diseases by the crew had helped either, although to his credit Cook tried to stop that.


----------



## gosub (Jun 17, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Any more on this?




Fitness to plead psych eval first surely?


----------



## Patteran (Jun 17, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> i reckon when they look through yer man's stuff they'll find somewhere a copy of that essay '*leaderless resistance*'.





gawkrodger said:


> The Southern Poverty Law Centre (kind of a yank equivalent of Searchlight for those not familiar) appear to have uncovered a bunch of evidence linking the killer to US neo-nazis
> 
> Alleged killer of British MP was a longtime supporter of the neo-Nazi National Alliance



Bang on, Pickman's. NA fed that 'leaderless resistance' idea/ideology to the nascent Combat Arthur Fowler, I think, through older BM links. 

(Weirdly, another of their NA phrases 'the future belongs to those of us willing to get our hands dirty' has been picked up by hipster motorcycle customisers in the States & over here).


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 17, 2016)

Patteran said:


> Bang on, Pickman's. NA fed that 'leaderless resistance' idea/ideology to the nascent Combat Arthur Fowler, I think, through older BM links.
> 
> (Weirdly, another of their NA phrases 'the future belongs to those of us willing to get our hands dirty' has been picked up by hipster motorcycle customisers in the States & over here).


the 13 words


----------



## teqniq (Jun 17, 2016)

I see the irrelevance that is Nick Griffin is saying that 'Remain will exploit Jo Cox's death'. He's said one or two other shitty things but I'm not linking to any of it to deny him the publicity he craves.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 17, 2016)

teqniq said:


> I see the irrelevance that is Nick Griffin is saying that 'Remain will exploit Jo Cox's death'. He's said one or two other shitty things but I'm not linking to any of it to deny him the publicity he craves.


tbh if remain seek to exploit it they will shoot themselves in the foot


----------



## billy_bob (Jun 17, 2016)

Yeah, its not impossible this will have some impact on the outcome, but anyone on either side who makes anything of it will just come off looking a massive cunt. Not that Griffin needed any help there...


----------



## Plumdaff (Jun 17, 2016)

gosub said:


> Fitness to plead psych eval first surely?



He'll have already been assessed under the Mental Health Act, they'll have done that straight away in the cells. They've probably questioned him with an appropriate adult present too. He'll have a longer psychiatric evaluation prior to trial, but if he's charged and detained in prison, they likely don't find him sectionable at this time.


----------



## JuanTwoThree (Jun 17, 2016)

It might be wrong to exploit this but the fact is that if the man was hearing voices then they might have been the real ones calling remainers evil traitors. I don't think leavers get called much except bonkers. There is no equivalence.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 17, 2016)

JuanTwoThree said:


> It might be wrong to exploit this but the fact is that if the man was hearing voices then they might have been the real ones calling remainers evil traitors. I don't think leavers get called much except bonkers. There is no equivalence.


wot


----------



## gosub (Jun 17, 2016)

Plumdaff said:


> He'll have already been assessed under the Mental Health Act, they'll have done that straight away in the cells. They've probably questioned him with an appropriate adult present too. He'll have a longer psychiatric evaluation prior to trial, but if he's charged and detained in prison, they likely don't find him sectionable at this time.



So this can all pretty much be kept in camera til the other side of the referendum.   You couldn't write this stuff.  Biggest decision of a generation is going to come down to what people think of a murderous, frustrated gardener with a history of mental illness and and some very dodgy political subscriptions.

If he had any idea of the magnitude of his actions he'd be sectioned for his own safety. I suspect in the web history of the local library PCs you will find urls of gardening at Broadmoor.


----------



## andysays (Jun 17, 2016)

JuanTwoThree said:


> It might be wrong to exploit this but the fact is that if the man was hearing voices then they might have been the real ones calling remainers evil traitors. I don't think leavers get called much except bonkers. There is no equivalence.



Please, let's *not* go down the road of utterly baseless speculation of how this man's reported history of mental illness may have manifested itself and what people think this might mean - this is a general request, not aimed solely at you.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 17, 2016)

gosub said:


> So this can all pretty much be kept in camera til the other side of the referendum.   You couldn't write this stuff.  Biggest decision of a generation is going to come down to what people think of a murderous, frustrated gardener with a history of mental illness and and some very dodgy political subscriptions.
> 
> If he had any idea of the magnitude of his actions he'd be sectioned for his own safety. I suspect in the web history of the local library PCs you will find urls of gardening at Broadmoor.


Broadmoor


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 17, 2016)

billy_bob said:


> Yeah, its not impossible this will have some impact on the outcome, but anyone on either side who makes anything of it will just come off looking a massive cunt. Not that Griffin needed any help there...


It's happening. It's happening on this very thread without comment. The reason being the people saying it are speaking for the majority of people on this forum.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 17, 2016)

Oh my word...how they'll exploit this 'opportunity'...


> The abuse is not confined to the deranged. It arises in an environment in which the stereotype of the lazy, venal, self-serving MP is depressingly widely accepted. This has deep roots in Britons’ ancient scepticism of authority. Yet particularly since the 2009 expenses scandal, when a handful of (frankly rather minor) scoundrels gave the decent majority a bad name, this has curdled into something darker, something nastier. In the heat of the EU referendum campaign I have attended a series of events (for the Leave side, it must be said) at which placid, middle-class Middle England types have parroted not just the usual gormless claims about MPs (“They’re all the same”, “They’re all in it for themselves”) but have tipped into outright conspiracy theorising. *Britain is not a democracy, its politicians are just puppets for shadowy corporate and foreign forces, they are traitors ...*


----------



## youngian (Jun 17, 2016)

How many years have we been warning these stupid fuckers not to play with fire? Its a good job campaigning is suspended until everyone calms down. We've had it with Farage and Johnson's crypto-fascist bullshit and the country will turn into Cable Street battles if people are out on the streets this weekend.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 17, 2016)

I feel uneasy enough about deciding because of the government we have rather than about the EU itself. Hopefully people won't change their vote because of what is an essentially random attack.


----------



## J Ed (Jun 17, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Oh my word...how they'll exploit this 'opportunity'...
> ​



Talk about over-egging the pudding. I can't help but feel that this is for internal consumption for those who already spend a lot of their time punching left.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 17, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Talk about over-egging the pudding. I can't help but feel that this is for internal consumption for those who already spend a lot of their time punching left.


'Economist' quoted by 'Guardian', so yes.


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Jun 17, 2016)

Jo Cox killing: Nazi regalia discovered at house of suspect


----------



## bi0boy (Jun 17, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Oh my word...how they'll exploit this 'opportunity'...
> ​



Quotation marks around the bold bit are missing in your post...


----------



## brogdale (Jun 17, 2016)

Bernie Gunther said:


> Jo Cox killing: Nazi regalia discovered at house of suspect


Forget that, it was Urban wot did it...


> _Yes, it is healthy for citizens to hold their representatives to account, to interrogate and challenge, to adopt a sceptical attitude towards the decisions they take, and to boot them out when they fail. But Britain in 2016 has gone far, far beyond that. *A country so intensely suspicious about its leaders, so wide-eyed in its willingness to believe the worst, so thirsty for proof of betrayal and decadence, is not a country in a good place.*_


You bastards.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 17, 2016)

bi0boy said:


> Quotation marks around the bold bit are missing in your post...


I C&P'd...they must have edited.


----------



## J Ed (Jun 17, 2016)

Interesting how quickly the media has turned everything into Nice Jolly MPs with small differences ultimately great people! vs Nasty horrible mass of plebs turning Britain into a hellhole and killing MPs


----------



## LDC (Jun 17, 2016)

I'm finding lots my friends reactions to this event highly depressing. Many are using it to argue for a Remain vote, blaming the Brexit campaign, and expressing dubious personal emotions about MPs and how lovely they are really. FFS, when did so many people I know turn into emotionally driven liberals?


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 17, 2016)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I'm finding my friends reactions to this event highly depressing. Many are using it to argue for a Remain vote, blaming the Brexit campaign, and expressing dubious personal emotions about MPs and how lovely they are really. FFS, when did so many people I know turn into emotionally driven liberals?


 Turning and turning in the widening gyre
	The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
	Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
	Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
	The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
	The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
	The best lack all conviction, while the worst
	Are full of passionate intensity.


----------



## teqniq (Jun 17, 2016)

Sad as it is, it hasn't changed my mind. However if Remain win the day the conspiracy nuts on the right will have a field day I feel


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 17, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> Turning and turning in the widening gyre
> The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
> Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
> Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
> ...


cracking jokes of civil war


----------



## teqniq (Jun 17, 2016)

My heart fucking bleeds, really it does. These are the people that reinforce each other's hatred on social media and go on combat training in North Wales to learn amongst other things, 'stabbing' techniques. Fuck 'em.


----------



## andysays (Jun 17, 2016)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I'm finding my friends reactions to this event highly depressing. Many are using it to argue for a Remain vote, blaming the Brexit campaign, and expressing dubious personal emotions about MPs and how lovely they are really. FFS, when did so many people I know turn into emotionally driven liberals?



I don't know about your friends particularly, but I suspect an awful lot of people with radical pretensions are, at bottom, emotionally driven liberals. It just takes something like this murder, and the media response to it, to bring it out into the open.

Anyway, I was starting to swing away from a "Lexit" position towards Abstain (combination of skepticism about how much traction that position will actually have post-ref and just general apathy/despair). This incident and particularly the media/establishment reaction to it have almost made me *more* inclined to go out and vote Leave next Thursday


----------



## Dogsauce (Jun 17, 2016)

I'm seeing a lot of people sharing some article calling for the referendum to be cancelled as a result of the murder (presumably doing so will retain the status quo).

I kind of want all this shit over with, could do without another round of this bollocks later.

The only possible advantage of calling it off would be leaving all these unhealed wounds in the tory party, which would make for some good sport.


----------



## cantsin (Jun 17, 2016)

andysays said:


> I don't know about your friends particularly, but I suspect an awful lot of people with radical pretensions are, at bottom, emotionally driven liberals. It just takes something like this murder, and the media response to it, to bring it out into the open.
> 
> Anyway, I was starting to swing away from a "Lexit" position towards Abstain (combination of skepticism about how much traction that position will actually have post-ref and just general apathy/despair). This incident and particularly the media/establishment reaction to it have almost made me *more* inclined to go out and vote Leave next Thursday



yep, after a bit of an abstain orientated wobble, likewise


----------



## andysays (Jun 17, 2016)

Dogsauce said:


> I'm seeing a lot of people sharing some article calling for the referendum to be cancelled as a result of the murder (presumably doing so will retain the status quo).
> 
> I kind of want all this shit over with, could do without another round of this bollocks later.
> 
> The only possible advantage of calling it off would be leaving all these unhealed wounds in the tory party, which would make for some good sport.



Got a link?


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 17, 2016)

Has it actually been established that the attack was directly to do with the referendum?


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 17, 2016)

Dogsauce said:


> I'm seeing a lot of people sharing some article calling for the referendum to be cancelled as a result of the murder (presumably doing so will retain the status quo).
> 
> I kind of want all this shit over with, could do without another round of this bollocks later.
> 
> The only possible advantage of calling it off would be leaving all these unhealed wounds in the tory party, which would make for some good sport.


i think cancelling the referendum permanently would be a bloody good idea


----------



## andysays (Jun 17, 2016)

cantsin said:


> yep, after a bit of an abstain orientated wobble, likewise



It's what Jo would have wanted, engaging in the process, exercising our democratic rights, etc


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 17, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Has it actually been established that the attack was directly to do with the referendum?


it has been inferred because of the suspect's possible links with an organisation that is explicitly anti-EU


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 17, 2016)

andysays said:


> It's what Jo would have wanted, engaging in the process, exercising our democratic rights, etc


Cox.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 17, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> i think cancelling the referendum permanently would be a bloody good idea



Well I think it's a bloody stupid idea.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 17, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Well I think it's a bloody stupid idea.


we should never had had it in the first place


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 17, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> we should never had had it in the first place



But only because you are in favour of remain.


----------



## gawkrodger (Jun 17, 2016)

bunch of social media posts (started I suspect by LBR) suggesting Mair is the gentleman in the cap in the 3rd photo down

britain  first .org/	  northern-brigade-activists-visit-26-mosques-across-dewsbury-and-bradford/


----------



## laptop (Jun 17, 2016)

Dogsauce said:


> The only possible advantage of calling it off would be leaving all these unhealed wounds in the tory party, which would make for some good sport.



You've very nearly convinced me to sign that petition


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 17, 2016)

Shit weekend for golding


----------



## Buckaroo (Jun 17, 2016)

gawkrodger said:


> bunch of social media posts (started I suspect by LBR) suggesting Mair is the gentleman in the cap in the 3rd photo down Brain Fisters  northern-brigade-activists-visit-26-mosques-across-dewsbury-and-bradford/



.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jun 17, 2016)

gawkrodger said:


> bunch of social media posts (started I suspect by LBR) suggesting Mair is the gentleman in the cap in the 3rd photo down
> 
> .	northern-brigade-activists-visit-26-mosques-across-dewsbury-and-bradford/



I can see the resemblance.


----------



## J Ed (Jun 17, 2016)

gawkrodger said:


> bunch of social media posts (started I suspect by LBR) suggesting Mair is the gentleman in the cap in the 3rd photo down
> 
> http://www.	   britainfirst.org/		northern-brigade-activists-visit-26-mosques-across-dewsbury-and-bradford/



Not impossible but it's not a very clear picture really, I could be wrong but I don't think it's him.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 17, 2016)

"London Black Revs Intel", where 'intel' involves downloading a photo publicly posted on the internet.


----------



## LDC (Jun 17, 2016)

Unless it's verified I think people posting photos like this isn't a helpful thing to do.


----------



## Guineveretoo (Jun 17, 2016)

The Labour Party have set up an online book of condolences. 

Leave your message of condolence


----------



## hot air baboon (Jun 17, 2016)

...the bloke lying on the ground in those arrest photos doesn't look much like the photos of him sitting on the bench...


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jun 17, 2016)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Unless it's verified I think people posting photos like this isn't a helpful thing to do.



Not sure why not.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 17, 2016)

Guineveretoo said:


> The Labour Party have set up an online book of condolences.
> 
> Leave your message of condolence


edit
soz, responded to wrong poster on wrong thread


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jun 17, 2016)

#wankyourMP


----------



## eoin_k (Jun 17, 2016)

gawkrodger said:


> bunch of social media posts (started I suspect by LBR) suggesting Mair is the gentleman in the cap in the 3rd photo down
> 
> ...



I think you need to break that link better.


----------



## eoin_k (Jun 17, 2016)

Now Buckaroo and Magnus McGinty need to break the links too.


----------



## eoin_k (Jun 17, 2016)

and J Ed


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 17, 2016)

eoin_k said:


> Now Buckaroo and Magnus McGinty need to break the links too.


why? is it against the rules?


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 17, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> why? is it against the rules?



Why give the cunts a link? We don't do it with any other far right links.


----------



## eoin_k (Jun 17, 2016)

I thought the mods appreciated people using broken links to the likes of Britain First to keep them off the boards - not trying to police people.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 17, 2016)

eoin_k said:


> I thought the mods appreciated people using broken links to the like of Britain First them off the boards - not trying to police people.


maybe to other forums to avoid board wars, but i'm sure it's such a bad idea for a campaigning website


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 17, 2016)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Why give the cunts a link? We don't do it with any other far right links.


ok, didn't realise.


----------



## Buckaroo (Jun 17, 2016)

eoin_k said:


> Now Buckaroo and Magnus McGinty need to break the links too.



eh? how?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 17, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Not impossible but it's not a very clear picture really, I could be wrong but I don't think it's him.


I'm sure the police will check the original


----------



## andysays (Jun 17, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> why? is it against the rules?



Yes, yes it is. Rule 7 in the FAQ in case you haven't got round to reading them all the time you've been here


> *Trolling/direct linking.* Do not directly link to 'hostile' websites (leave gaps in the URL if you wish to refer to them).



I think Britain First probably counts as a hostile website, don't you?

(the reason is that they will soon spot that they are getting lots of traffic from people clicking on links on this site, and we'll then get a bunch of BF cunts turning up here...)


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 17, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> I'm the police...



I fucking _knew_ it!


----------



## eoin_k (Jun 17, 2016)

Buckaroo said:


> eh? how?



I was just suggesting that you edited the post where you quoted gawkrodger so that the link didn't work.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 17, 2016)

andysays said:


> Yes, yes it is. Rule 7 in the FAQ in case you haven't got round to reading them all the time you've been here


no one reads the FAQs!


----------



## Buckaroo (Jun 17, 2016)

eoin_k said:


> I was just suggesting that you edited the post where you quoted gawkrodger so that the link didn't work.



I deleted that post. Does that help?


----------



## andysays (Jun 17, 2016)

Buckaroo said:


> I deleted that post. Does that help?



It's not your bit of the post post you need to delete, it's the link in your quote of gawkroger's original post


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 17, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> no one reads the FAQs!



It's common sense tbh.


----------



## teqniq (Jun 17, 2016)

Anti-terror experts are advising police over charges for the alleged killer of MP Jo Cox


----------



## Buckaroo (Jun 17, 2016)

andysays said:


> It's not your bit of the post post you need to delete, it's the link in your quote of gawkroger's original post



Ah gotcha soz!


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jun 17, 2016)

Breaking links to far right or otherwise hostile sites stops them tracking where people referred to their page have come from. Having to enter the link manually removes any referrer header, GA tracking etc etc. While it's rare that anyone actually checks, it still does at times and it can be a massive pain.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jun 17, 2016)

eoin_k said:


> Now Buckaroo and Magnus McGinty need to break the links too.



Sorry. Have done.


----------



## likesfish (Jun 17, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> "London Black Revs Intel", where 'intel' involves downloading a photo publicly posted on the internet.



hey at least it verified int
unlike the Iraqi truck of dooooooom which was allegedly a giant up armoured armed sucicde truck that was going to turn up anytime soon complete with motorcycle outriders
 strangely iraqi resistance dont see mad max as a valuable training aid


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 17, 2016)

andysays said:


> I don't know about your friends particularly, but I suspect an awful lot of people with radical pretensions are, at bottom, emotionally driven liberals. It just takes something like this murder, and the media response to it, to bring it out into the open.
> 
> Anyway, I was starting to swing away from a "Lexit" position towards Abstain (combination of skepticism about how much traction that position will actually have post-ref and just general apathy/despair). This incident and particularly the media/establishment reaction to it have almost made me *more* inclined to go out and vote Leave next Thursday


That's a really weird, and frankly stupid, thing to say.


----------



## andysays (Jun 17, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> That's a really weird, and frankly stupid, thing to say.



Which part of it do you think is weird/stupid and why?


----------



## bluescreen (Jun 17, 2016)

andysays said:


> I don't know about your friends particularly, but I suspect an awful lot of people with radical pretensions are, at bottom, emotionally driven liberals. It just takes something like this murder, and the media response to it, to bring it out into the open.
> 
> Anyway, I was starting to swing away from a "Lexit" position towards Abstain (combination of skepticism about how much traction that position will actually have post-ref and just general apathy/despair). This incident and particularly the media/establishment reaction to it have almost made me *more* inclined to go out and vote Leave next Thursday


Why does the 'emotional' reaction of your friends and other people affect the way you intend to vote?


----------



## andysays (Jun 17, 2016)

bluescreen said:


> Why does the 'emotional' reaction of your friends and other people affect the way you intend to vote?



That's not actually what I said


----------



## teqniq (Jun 17, 2016)

Blimey not the sort of thing I expected to see from the Torygraph

It’s time to call the killing of Jo Cox what it is: 'an act of far-Right terrorism'


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 17, 2016)

These weird people with their emotions


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 17, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> These weird people with their emotions



It's like some people can do stuff that is never emotionally impacted. Weird indeed.


----------



## bluescreen (Jun 17, 2016)

andysays said:


> That's not actually what I said


Sorry, I misunderstood. I was reading too much of a sequitur between the first and second paragraphs. But this was the bit that puzzled me: 





> This incident and particularly the media/establishment reaction to it have almost made me *more* inclined to go out and vote Leave next Thursday


----------



## killer b (Jun 17, 2016)

This is good. Mainstream politicians ‘clueless on migration debate’, says Jo Cox's husband


----------



## discokermit (Jun 17, 2016)

Exclusive poll: EU support falls after Jo Cox murder


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 17, 2016)

teqniq said:


> Blimey not the sort of thing I expected to see from the Torygraph
> 
> It’s time to call the killing of Jo Cox what it is: 'an act of far-Right terrorism'


The quilliam lot must be chuffed to be called a major organisation


----------



## bi0boy (Jun 17, 2016)

discokermit said:


> Exclusive poll: EU support falls after Jo Cox murder



That's not a proper poll.


----------



## discokermit (Jun 17, 2016)

i don't know, may not be. interesting though.


----------



## mk12 (Jun 17, 2016)

bi0boy said:


> That's not a proper poll.


The remain vote hasnt fallen to 32%


----------



## bi0boy (Jun 17, 2016)

discokermit said:


> nope. interesting though.



Not really, as they don't publish a methodology.


----------



## discokermit (Jun 17, 2016)

bi0boy said:


> Not really, as they don't publish a methodology.


don't be interested then. i don't give a fuck.


----------



## bi0boy (Jun 17, 2016)

discokermit said:


> don't be interested then. i don't give a fuck.



I just polled my mate. There has been a 100% shift to remain since yesterday when I polled my aunt.


----------



## discokermit (Jun 17, 2016)

bi0boy said:


> I just polled my mate. There has been a 100% shift to remain since yesterday when I polled my aunt.


nice one.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 17, 2016)

bi0boy said:


> I just polled my mate. There has been a 100% shift to remain since yesterday when I polled my aunt.


you dirty bastard


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 17, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> you dirty bastard


It's not the first he's polled her either I'll be bound


----------



## brogdale (Jun 17, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> It's not the first he's polled her either I'll be bound


Coming over here, taking our Aunts....


----------



## teqniq (Jun 17, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> The quilliam lot must be chuffed to be called a major organisation


Hmm I hadn't gotten as far as reading it past the headline...


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 17, 2016)

teqniq said:


> Hmm I hadn't gotten as far as reading it past the headline...


executive summary: the quilliam lot should be listened to on this one, yer man is a neo-nazi alongside such other luminaries of the far right as breivik and timothy mcveigh, and we should vehemently oppose extremism of all sorts.


----------



## 1%er (Jun 17, 2016)

These documents appear to show Tommy Mair ordering items from the National Alliance in the USA in 1999 and 2003.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 17, 2016)

1%er said:


> These documents appear to show Tommy Mair ordering items from the National Alliance in the USA in 1999 and 2003.


Yes we've seen that


----------



## bi0boy (Jun 17, 2016)




----------



## brogdale (Jun 17, 2016)

bi0boy said:


>



Missed the dress code?


----------



## gawkrodger (Jun 17, 2016)

eoin_k said:


> I think you need to break that link better.



yeh, sorry about that - the perils of posting from a phone. Edited now


----------



## existentialist (Jun 17, 2016)

classicdish said:


> Saw someone post the following on reddit yesterday. It is impossible to tell how genuine or reliable this post is as opposed to either invention or repeating local gossip, but I thought people here might find it interesting:



I really worry that this is going to be one of an increasing number of very profound demonstrations of what happens when you let the people who are trickling down our societal hierachies fall out of the bottom.

Looking after our weakest and most vulnerable - and not just the mad, bad or sad - is not purely about altruism or "being nice": it is essential to ensure that we, as a society, can operate without those we have neglected and ignored surprising us by acting in ways we might not.

The vast majority of people who fall through the net will do no harm to anyone other than themselves. But even the tiny minority who do have that capacity are enough to have terrible and appalling results - I fear that this will turn out to be one of those.


----------



## CyberRose (Jun 17, 2016)

bi0boy said:


>



If you do a reverse image search on Google the BF page comes up as the first hit, but if you click the link looks like the page has been deleted...


----------



## keybored (Jun 17, 2016)

CyberRose said:


> If you do a reverse image search on Google the BF page comes up as the first hit, but if you click the link looks like the page has been deleted...


It's still up. https://t.co/GrXSuTRVEt (redirect).


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jun 17, 2016)

existentialist said:


> I really worry that this is going to be one of an increasing number of very profound demonstrations of what happens when you let the people who are trickling down our societal hierachies fall out of the bottom.
> 
> Looking after our weakest and most vulnerable - and not just the mad, bad or sad - is not purely about altruism or "being nice": it is essential to ensure that we, as a society, can operate without those we have neglected and ignored surprising us by acting in ways we might not.
> 
> The vast majority of people who fall through the net will do no harm to anyone other than themselves. But even the tiny minority who do have that capacity are enough to have terrible and appalling results - I fear that this will turn out to be one of those.


Oh hold on. I'm a million times more concerned about the effects of our shitshow of a mental health service on the people who need it, and the idea that we need to worry about people being untreated and "going nuts" and killing an MP is an utterly counterproductive thing to even mention. It just reinforces stereotypes. Which are bad enough already.


----------



## Mr Moose (Jun 17, 2016)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Oh hold on. I'm a million times more concerned about the effects of our shitshow of a mental health service on the people who need it, and the idea that we need to worry about people being untreated and "going nuts" and killing an MP is an utterly counterproductive thing to even mention. It just reinforces stereotypes. Which are bad enough already.



It was a perfectly reasonable point fairly put.


----------



## Mr Moose (Jun 17, 2016)

andysays said:


> Which part of it do you think is weird/stupid and why?


That you vote on the basis of who is annoying you at that moment?


----------



## existentialist (Jun 18, 2016)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Oh hold on. I'm a million times more concerned about the effects of our shitshow of a mental health service on the people who need it, and the idea that we need to worry about people being untreated and "going nuts" and killing an MP is an utterly counterproductive thing to even mention. It just reinforces stereotypes. Which are bad enough already.


I think that the fact of it reinforces stereotypes. The idea of the "lone nutter" stereotype doesn't come from nowhere, and the less we do to help the entire cohort of the disenfranchised, the more risk there is of a spectrum of suffering, from lonely misery through to the much rarer violent cases, manifesting itself. 

I didn't feel I needed to point out what most on Urban tend to regard as obvious...


----------



## pocketscience (Jun 18, 2016)

> *Consequences of Brexit sink in for US politicians after killing of MP*
> The death of UK member of parliament sent a shock through Washington as the EU referendum vote could impact foreign policy and international relation


Consequences of Brexit sink in for US politicians after killing of MP

As if making the connection of Brexit to the killing, while ignoring any far right links weren't enough, add a Washington fear dimension to complete the most undignified hatchet job seen in many a year.


----------



## Dogsauce (Jun 18, 2016)

My Facebook feed is nothing but responses to this incident, it's overwhelming and doing my head in a bit. Fair enough there are one or two people who knew her with heartfelt things to say, but the majority is just people posting the same Guardian articles etc., or relating it to Brexit or posting stuff that I've already seen in here ages ago (urban is always ahead on this stuff). For the love of Christ can't someone just go off on a rant about the football to break the monotony?


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Jun 18, 2016)

Dogsauce said:


> My Facebook feed is nothing but responses to this incident, it's overwhelming and doing my head in a bit. Fair enough there are one or two people who knew her with heartfelt things to say, but the majority is just people posting the same Guardian articles etc., or relating it to Brexit or posting stuff that I've already seen in here ages ago (urban is always ahead on this stuff). For the love of Christ can't someone just go off on a rant about the football to break the monotony?



There's a remarkably simple solution to your problem dude


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Jun 18, 2016)

Anyway



Why Westminster Magistrates Court? Is it just for security?


----------



## pocketscience (Jun 18, 2016)

TheHoodedClpost: 14557069 said:
			
		

> Why Westminster Magistrates Court? Is it just for security?


More space for the media?


----------



## classicdish (Jun 18, 2016)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> Why Westminster Magistrates Court? Is it just for security?


According to wikipedia _"all extradition and terrorism-related cases pass through it"_


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Jun 18, 2016)

classicdish said:


> According to wikipedia _"all extradition and terrorism-related cases pass through it"_



Ah, that'll be it I guess.


----------



## kenny g (Jun 18, 2016)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> Why Westminster Magistrates Court? Is it just for security?



Closer to the Tyburn or Tower for the hanging.


----------



## goldenecitrone (Jun 18, 2016)

kenny g said:


> Closer to the Tyburn or Tower for the hanging.



It's just down the road from Paddington Green police station.

Paddington Green Police Station - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## andysays (Jun 18, 2016)

Mr Moose said:


> That you vote on the basis of who is annoying you at that moment?



Again, that's not what I said.

Is there something about so many of you Remainers which makes you misrepresent people who don't agree with you, or is it just that you're unable to understand a simple sentence?

I've been intending to vote Leave on a left basis for some time; over the past week or two I've been wondering about voting at all. My reaction to what has just happened (and particularly some of the media/establishment reaction) is that it makes me more likely again to vote, and if I do so it will be according to my original intention, ie Leave.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 18, 2016)

So what's the state of play wrt the EUref campaign? Is it resuming today, tomorrow...or did I hear correctly on the radio...after the recall of Parliament on Monday?

Almost like the state team are actually enjoying this lull in proceedings?


----------



## kenny g (Jun 18, 2016)

All democracy is cancelled.


----------



## Cid (Jun 18, 2016)

brogdale said:


> So what's the state of play wrt the EUref campaign? Is it resuming today, tomorrow...or did I hear correctly on the radio...after the recall of Parliament on Monday?
> 
> Almost like the state team are actually enjoying this lull in proceedings?



Email from labour (yeah, I paid the £3 for Corbyn):



> Dear Friends,
> 
> As you may have read, we have been instructed by the Labour Party to suspend our campaign again today, and then quietly to resume tomorrow. With this in mind, we have drawn up a revised schedule for Sunday 19th – please see below. Get Out The Vote leafleting will commence in the week as originally planned.
> 
> One way to respond to the murder of Jo Cox is to redouble our effort to secure a Remain result. Please do all that you can to support our campaign in its remaining days, and encourage your friends to join us on the doorstep and in delivering leaflets. A strong turnout tomorrow will be a visible and dignified demonstration that we will not be driven off the streets.



The revised schedule is doorknocking stuff, so I suppose business as usual from Sunday. Also note the use of death as a measure to encourage the faithful remain activists.


----------



## teqniq (Jun 18, 2016)

kenny g said:


> All democracy is cancelled.


What, more so than normal?


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 18, 2016)

Cid said:


> Email from labour (yeah, I paid the £3 for Corbyn):
> 
> 
> 
> The revised schedule is doorknocking stuff, so I suppose business as usual from Sunday. Also note the use of death as a measure to encourage the faithful remain activists.


Disgusting


----------



## brogdale (Jun 18, 2016)

Cid said:


> Email from labour (yeah, I paid the £3 for Corbyn):
> 
> 
> 
> The revised schedule is doorknocking stuff, so I suppose business as usual from Sunday. Also note the use of death as a measure to encourage the faithful remain activists.


Unsurprising remainarian shroud waving.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 18, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Unsurprising remainarian shroud waving.


That's the ok way to do politics around this. Not the disgusting other people.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 18, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> That's the ok way to do politics around this. Not the disgusting other people.


Also note the uninterrupted flow of fear-mongering emanating from those bodies unrestricted by the official or Jo Cox purdahs.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 18, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Also note the uninterrupted flow of fear-mongering emanating from those bodies unrestricted by the official or Jo Cox purdahs.


In this thread even.


----------



## Mr Moose (Jun 18, 2016)

andysays said:


> Again, that's not what I said.
> 
> Is there something about so many of you Remainers which makes you misrepresent people who don't agree with you, or is it just that you're unable to understand a simple sentence?
> 
> I've been intending to vote Leave on a left basis for some time; over the past week or two I've been wondering about voting at all. My reaction to what has just happened (and particularly some of the media/establishment reaction) is that it makes me more likely again to vote, and if I do so it will be according to my original intention, ie Leave.



Nope doesn't make any more sense than it did before. People read into this kind of issue what they wish. Liberals gush and renew their faith in democracy whilst a swathe of new right moan that the BBC fabricated witness reports, or that it is biased to investigate or highlight the right wing connections or tendencies of the accused. 

Why don't the latter views balance the ones shifting you leavewards or are you, just like everyone else, merely taking what you want from it?


----------



## Mr Moose (Jun 18, 2016)

existentialist said:


> I think that the fact of it reinforces stereotypes. The idea of the "lone nutter" stereotype doesn't come from nowhere, and the less we do to help the entire cohort of the disenfranchised, the more risk there is of a spectrum of suffering, from lonely misery through to the much rarer violent cases, manifesting itself.
> 
> I didn't feel I needed to point out what most on Urban tend to regard as obvious...



There isn't a need to weigh one against the other even if 10,000 self harm and 50 harm others. The 50 will suffer grievously for the harm they do. All good reasons for a mental health support system that works.


----------



## mrs quoad (Jun 18, 2016)

I have just been pointed towards this.


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Jun 18, 2016)

Well, I guess that removes some of the ambiguity.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 18, 2016)

Where's that from mrs quoad ?


----------



## mrs quoad (Jun 18, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Where's that from mrs quoad ?


The Mail. 

I'm sorry to say. Hence the screencap, rather than a link.


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Jun 18, 2016)




----------



## bi0boy (Jun 18, 2016)

Man in court over killing of MP Jo Cox - BBC News


----------



## bluescreen (Jun 18, 2016)

BBC reporting the same.


----------



## goldenecitrone (Jun 18, 2016)

mrs quoad said:


> I have just been pointed towards this.



At least that's one less vote for Leave. Didn't think that through, did he? Daft cunt.


----------



## Kesher (Jun 18, 2016)

mrs quoad said:


> The Mail.
> 
> I'm sorry to say. Hence the screencap, rather than a link.



Just heard it on LBC


----------



## 8den (Jun 18, 2016)

Bernie Gunther said:


>




You can almost hear Gove, Hunt and Johnson mutter "for fucks sake" under their breath.


----------



## frogwoman (Jun 18, 2016)

Jo Cox murder suspect Tommy Mair repeatedly hurled racist abuse at Asian cab drivers


----------



## Wookey (Jun 18, 2016)

Oh very dear.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 18, 2016)

He didn't say his name in capitals 

And interesting he's been charged with murder but not terrorism.


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 18, 2016)

And the line was said

Quiet loner type keep himself to himself, appear to be a nice fella

:Ffs:


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jun 18, 2016)

One thing and another, I don't much fancy his chances of getting away with this.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 18, 2016)

two sheds said:


> He didn't say his name in capitals
> 
> And interesting he's been charged with murder but not terrorism.


What charge would you prefer? The lee rigby killers were charged with murder.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 18, 2016)

Murder's good, I've always thought 'murder' and 'conspiracy to murder' were good enough before the terrorism laws. 

There seems a reluctance to call far-right killings terrorism, but I hadn't realised about lee rigby killers so fair play.


----------



## treelover (Jun 18, 2016)

Surely given his comments in court, it is political terrorism, what were IRA charged with?


----------



## mauvais (Jun 18, 2016)

Cid said:


> Email from labour (yeah, I paid the £3 for Corbyn):
> 
> The revised schedule is doorknocking stuff, so I suppose business as usual from Sunday. Also note the use of death as a measure to encourage the faithful remain activists.


Not to say this is necessarily right, but what would you rather they did? Different wording, or something else completely?

It's a political murder, you can't avoid politicised response. To criticise is making political capital from it, even to do nothing (in campaign terms) is political. It's not going to be called off and even that wouldn't be an answer. She was killed whilst actively fighting for what is/was probably the losing side, but with time left to run, so what is that side _supposed_ to do with it?


----------



## danny la rouge (Jun 18, 2016)

two sheds said:


> And interesting he's been charged with murder but not terrorism.


Take your point, but there's a difference between the xenophobic press being reluctant to call it far right terrorism and the charges laid in court.


----------



## 5t3IIa (Jun 18, 2016)

two sheds said:


> He didn't say his name in capitals
> 
> And interesting he's been charged with murder but not terrorism.


I suppose they're charging him with murder initially as, while he's guilty until proven innocent, he's bang to rights on that charge. More charges to follow, I imagine.

At least there will be a trial*! Too many murderers/terrorists deny the law a chance to grapple with them.


* unless he offs himself on remand, of course.


----------



## danny la rouge (Jun 18, 2016)

Cid said:


> Email from labour (yeah, I paid the £3 for Corbyn):
> 
> 
> 
> The revised schedule is doorknocking stuff, so I suppose business as usual from Sunday. Also note the use of death as a measure to encourage the faithful remain activists.


The devolution referendum in Scotland coincided with Diana's death and funeral. The campaign went on, but in muted fashion. I know this isn't a direct equivalence but, it's a precedence of sorts.


----------



## Spymaster (Jun 18, 2016)

goldenecitrone said:


> At least that's one less vote for Leave. Didn't think that through, did he? Daft cunt.


He'll be on remand. He can still vote.


----------



## chilango (Jun 18, 2016)

So is he going to a political prisoner then?


----------



## likesfish (Jun 18, 2016)

tbf he's a genuinely mentally ill Nazi.
 so both really a lone nut.
 who is also a Nazi.


----------



## andysays (Jun 18, 2016)

Spymaster said:


> He'll be on remand. He can still vote.



I think he's left it a bit late to apply for a postal vote though


----------



## 5t3IIa (Jun 18, 2016)

chilango said:


> So is he going to a political prisoner then?


That depends on the charge, surely?


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 18, 2016)

treelover said:


> Surely given his comments in court, it is political terrorism, what were IRA charged with?


Why don't you have a look up what range of offences are available?  Is 'political terrorism' among them?


----------



## chilango (Jun 18, 2016)

5t3IIa said:


> That depends on the charge, surely?



Exactly.

I just wondered what all those seemingly calling for him to be charged with something that more explicitly acknowledged the political content of the act would make of the flip side of this....

...or if it actually doesn't really matter?


----------



## agricola (Jun 18, 2016)

treelover said:


> Surely given his comments in court, it is political terrorism, what were IRA charged with?



Often what he was charged with, tbh.


----------



## Spymaster (Jun 18, 2016)

two sheds said:


> And interesting he's been charged with murder but not terrorism.


There isn't a charge of terrorism _per se_.

People can be charged with offences under one of the terrorism acts (which aggravates the offence) if it's deemed to be an attempt to influence government or intimidate the public.

IRA bombers (and non-bombers in some cases) were usually charged with murder and/or, causing/conspiracy to cause, explosions.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 18, 2016)

Yes I had a bit of a check after butchers' question and realised I was talking bollox


----------



## laptop (Jun 18, 2016)

andysays said:


> I think he's left it a bit late to apply for a postal vote though


Unless he did apply, giving his address as Paddington Green 



Which would be a thing...


----------



## A380 (Jun 18, 2016)

Murder is the charge for killing people deliberately (or after trying to hurt them a lot, or if it was caused by trying to escape from being arrested) in England and Wales. Terrorism offences (most recently under the Terrorism Act 2000 TACT) are more about locking people up at an early stage. The big three being CPI -  Commission, Preparation, or Instigation of acts of terrorism.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2000/11/section/1


----------



## not-bono-ever (Jun 18, 2016)

"Thomas Mair gave his name as "Death to traitors, freedom for Britain" when he appeared at Westminster Magistrates' Court."

fuckin hell...


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 18, 2016)

treelover said:


> Surely given his comments in court, it is political terrorism, what were IRA charged with?


 all terrorism is by definition political


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 18, 2016)

not-bono-ever said:


> "Thomas Mair gave his name as "Death to traitors, freedom for Britain" when he appeared at Westminster Magistrates' Court."
> 
> fuckin hell...


Fucks up the not me guv defence


----------



## Beermoth (Jun 18, 2016)

not-bono-ever said:


> "Thomas Mair gave his name as "Death to traitors, freedom for Britain" when he appeared at Westminster Magistrates' Court."



What a timid gardener.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 18, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Fucks up the not me guv defence



but not the diminished responsibility defence


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 18, 2016)

two sheds said:


> but not the diminished responsibility defence


Sort of shits on that as well


----------



## kebabking (Jun 18, 2016)

i bet the CPS are salivating at the idea of prosecuting this one - a grand a day and the loon does your work for you...


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 18, 2016)

kebabking said:


> i bet the CPS are salivating at the idea of prosecuting this one - a grand a day and the loon does your work for you...


Yeh sign here for life without parole. But I hope he does plead ng


----------



## andysays (Jun 18, 2016)

laptop said:


> Unless he did apply, giving his address as Paddington Green
> 
> Which would be a thing...



Or if Paul Golding has applied for a proxy vote on his behalf...


----------



## two sheds (Jun 18, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Sort of shits on that as well



Possibly - a bit of a Catch 22 for him on that. His mental health history, and if (as suggested above) the help he had been getting had been stopped would be relevant though.


----------



## agricola (Jun 18, 2016)

two sheds said:


> but not the diminished responsibility defence



Not really, if anything it makes it more clear that this was a planned act carried out for a purpose.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 18, 2016)

two sheds said:


> Possibly - a bit of a Catch 22 for him on that. His mental health history, and if (as suggested above) the help he had been getting had been stopped would be relevant though.


Preparation for murder eg making or getting gun would scupper mh defence I reckon


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 18, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> all terrorism is by definition political


Not quite, as definitions vary. 
A bank robber taking people hostage can be interpreted as terrorism


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 18, 2016)

andysays said:


> Or if Paul Golding has applied for a proxy vote on his behalf...


Very doubtful!


----------



## existentialist (Jun 18, 2016)

8den said:


> You can almost hear Gove, Hunt and Johnson mutter "for fucks sake" under their breath.


I'm not sure they're that aware. They're probably at the "shit, one less Brexit voter" stage of thinking.


----------



## Idris2002 (Jun 18, 2016)

mrs quoad said:


> I have just been pointed towards this.


Never trust a man who wears camouflage gear when he's not in the army.


----------



## Beermoth (Jun 18, 2016)

You know who else likes gardening? *Corbyn*.


----------



## existentialist (Jun 18, 2016)

5t3IIa said:


> I suppose they're charging him with murder initially as, while he's guilty until proven innocent, he's bang to rights on that charge. More charges to follow, I imagine.
> 
> At least there will be a trial*! Too many murderers/terrorists deny the law a chance to grapple with them.
> 
> ...


If anyone has a clue, they will be making _very_ carefully sure that his martyrdom opportunities are kept to an absolute bare minimum.


----------



## kebabking (Jun 18, 2016)

existentialist said:


> I'm not sure they're that aware. They're probably at the "shit, one less Brexit voter" stage of thinking.



oh no, i think they're all well aware of the impact of this - the Falange was trying to mitigate the damage yesterday.


----------



## Spymaster (Jun 18, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> Not quite, as definitions vary.
> A bank robber taking people hostage can be interpreted as terrorism


It needs to be to further a political, ideological or religious aim to qualify as terrorism by law.


----------



## existentialist (Jun 18, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh sign here for life without parole. But I hope he does plead ng


I imagine he'll make some kind of grandstanding political plea - along the lines of the "I do not recognise this court" type thing.


----------



## kebabking (Jun 18, 2016)

existentialist said:


> I imagine he'll make some kind of grandstanding political plea - along the lines of the "I do not recognise this court" type thing.



agreed - he's pissed on his chips if he wanted to be treated with some element of kid gloves, he's going for it big style - i wouldn't be surprised if he tells the Jury that he's fucked their mums.

Belmarsh or Wakefield?


----------



## existentialist (Jun 18, 2016)

kebabking said:


> oh no, i think they're all well aware of the impact of this - the Falange was trying to mitigate the damage yesterday.


I suspect Farage is actually one of the sharper tools in that particular drawer.

Hunt being, of course, the tool that invariably jams in the drawer and stops it being able to be opened properly. Gove is the strange device whose function you can't quite figure out, and which lurks at the back ready to stab/nip unwary fingers.

IDS is just a tool.


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Jun 18, 2016)




----------



## existentialist (Jun 18, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> Not quite, as definitions vary.
> A bank robber taking people hostage can be interpreted as terrorism


But not in a court of law. Unless, as others have pointed out, there is some kind of political dimension to it.


----------



## existentialist (Jun 18, 2016)

TheHoodedClaw said:


>



It's a bummer.

Yours, Death To All People Who Make Jokes About Putting Rabbits In Casseroles.


----------



## kebabking (Jun 18, 2016)

the prosecutor is going to be Keith Allen. i'm distressed that everyone on Twitter has got the jokes in ahead of me....


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 18, 2016)

I see people on Twitter are frothing at the mouth about Mair applying for legal aid.


----------



## Mr Moose (Jun 18, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Fucks up the not me guv defence



Mistaken identity and the plod have just picked on a bloke with a snappy name.


----------



## kebabking (Jun 18, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> I see people on Twitter are frothing at the mouth about Mair applying for legal aid.



well, at least the trial won't take long - the defence constisting of _wibble bastards wibble traitors wibble. _should be over by about 9.45, they can break for elevenses and then crack on with another trial.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jun 18, 2016)

Going by what he gave his name as, surely this points to a guilty plea?


----------



## ruffneck23 (Jun 18, 2016)

kebabking said:


> agreed - he's pissed on his chips if he wanted to be treated with some element of kid gloves, he's going for it big style - i wouldn't be surprised if he tells the Jury that he's fucked their mums.
> 
> Belmarsh or Wakefield?


or found hung in his cell


----------



## teqniq (Jun 18, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> I see people on Twitter are frothing at the mouth about Mair applying for legal aid.



Why?  I detest what the guy has allegedly done and what he stands for but you can froth all you like about legal aid. If someone can't afford it that's what it's for.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jun 18, 2016)

teqniq said:


> Why?  I detest what the guy has allegedly done and what he stands for but you can froth all you like about legal aid. If someone can't afford it that's what it's for.



Because it's probably something Mair would froth about with regard to foreigners is the bone of contention, at a guess.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 18, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Because it's probably something Mair would froth about with regard to foreigners is the bone of contention, at a guess.


Well 'so what' is the correct response to that. Don't judge yourself by the standards of a deranged racist lunatic.


----------



## teqniq (Jun 18, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Because it's probably something Mair would froth about with regard to foreigners is the bone of contention, at a guess.


Heh, maybe. but that way >>> lies kangaroo courts. Let's see if Orang Utan comes back with some examples.


----------



## keybored (Jun 18, 2016)

existentialist said:


> I imagine he'll make some kind of grandstanding political plea - along the lines of the "I do not recognise this court" type thing.



Maybe he took these posters seriously too (seems they're the work of some "freemen of the land" types).


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 18, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> Not quite, as definitions vary.
> A bank robber taking people hostage can be interpreted as terrorism


only by people who have no notion of the meaning of the word


----------



## Mr Moose (Jun 18, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> I see people on Twitter are frothing at the mouth about Mair applying for legal aid.



Push comes to shove few of us would deny him it, but his exercising of his rights rankles like the reasonable conditions Breivik moans about.


----------



## bluescreen (Jun 18, 2016)

Has he actually applied for legal aid? Or is he going to pull some of that freeman of the land shit? It doesn't sound as if he's availed himself of legal advice.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 18, 2016)

teqniq said:


> Why?  I detest what the guy has allegedly done and what he stands for but you can froth all you like about legal aid. If someone can't afford it that's what it's for.


Cos people are stupid


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 18, 2016)

teqniq said:


> Heh, maybe. but that way >>> lies kangaroo courts. Let's see if Orang Utan comes back with some examples.


Of what?


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 18, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> only by people who have no notion of the meaning of the word


a person using terror to further their own personal ends, which could be lunatic or larcenous ones, rather than political ones, could still be seen as a terrorist.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 18, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> a person using terror to further their own personal ends, which could be lunatic or larcenous ones, rather than political ones, could still be seen as a terrorist.


i refer the honourable gentleman to the answer i gave a few moments ago


----------



## two sheds (Jun 18, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> a person using terror to further their own personal ends, which could be lunatic or larcenous ones, rather than political ones, could still be seen as a terrorist.



He's right according to Oxford online: 



> A person who uses unlawful violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims: _four commercial aircraft were hijacked by terrorists_



terrorist - definition of terrorist in English from the Oxford dictionary


----------



## likesfish (Jun 18, 2016)

You'd like to be classed as terrorist

But your just a murderous loon and your cause is all in your head .

Islamic terrorists beliefs are no less batshit unfortunatly they are not on their own.
 Nazis killers fortunatly are rather rare.


----------



## 8den (Jun 18, 2016)

bluescreen said:


> Has he actually applied for legal aid? Or is he going to pull some of that freeman of the land shit? It doesn't sound as if he's availed himself of legal advice.



His lawyers identified him after his outburst, so clearly he has representation.


----------



## A380 (Jun 18, 2016)

existentialist said:


> I imagine he'll make some kind of grandstanding political plea - along the lines of the "I do not recognise this court" type thing.


Or he'll go down the Freeman on the land route.


----------



## 8den (Jun 18, 2016)

A380 said:


> Or he'll go down the Freeman on the land route.



Ugh, Imagine. If 2016 wasn't depressing and annoying enough, a Freeman of the Land legal defence in a massive murder trial.


----------



## kebabking (Jun 18, 2016)

8den said:


> Ugh, Imagine. If 2016 wasn't depressing and annoying enough, a Freeman of the Land legal defence in a massive murder trial.



ah, but think of how entertaining the Judges summing up will be...


----------



## agricola (Jun 18, 2016)

kebabking said:


> ah, but think of how entertaining the Judges summing up will be...



Or he could just recognize that Mair has put himself outside the law, and then shoot him.


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Jun 18, 2016)

General question about murder, terrorism etc: am I right that there's no charge of aggravated murder (although it looks like there used to be eg for treason) in England and Wales, and aggravating factors only come into play in sentencing? Also, I can't find a specific aggravating factor of "terrorism", but there is for use of a gun, or knife?

Is that right, as I got a bit confused picking through the wiki articles (the actual statutes are beyond me, I'm afraid)?


----------



## MAD-T-REX (Jun 18, 2016)

That's pretty much it. There is a single offence of murder, whether the motivation is financial, racist or political, but the court is entitled to take all of the facts/circumstances of a case into account when sentencing. Terrorism is an extreme aggravating factor because you have killed someone for what you or they believed and it can be presumed that you would do so again if the opportunity presented itself.


----------



## Idris2002 (Jun 18, 2016)

likesfish said:


> You'd like to be classed as terrorist
> 
> But your just a murderous loon and your cause is all in your head .
> 
> ...


Michael Stone was a murderous loon, but he came out of a wider loyalist milieu. Just like Mr. Camo jacket came out of his neo-nazi milieu.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 18, 2016)

Idris2002 said:


> Never trust a man who wears camouflage gear when he's not in the army.


steady on, camo trousers can be a good look with cherry red DM's and a decent hoody + hat


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Jun 18, 2016)

MAD-T-REX said:


> Terrorism is an extreme aggravating factor because you have killed someone for what you or they believed and it can be presumed that you would do so again if the opportunity presented itself.



So it basically works the same as a racially aggravated crime then, an offence against a class of people, as opposed to an individual. Makes sense. Thanks.


----------



## Idris2002 (Jun 18, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> steady on, camo trousers can be a good look with cherry red DM's and a decent hoody + hat


<puts Kimble's name on the list>


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 18, 2016)

kebabking said:


> agreed - he's pissed on his chips if he wanted to be treated with some element of kid gloves, he's going for it big style - i wouldn't be surprised if he tells the Jury that he's fucked their mums.
> 
> Belmarsh or Wakefield?


shouldn't be so easily shocked but when the jury handed Noye a conviction for his part in the brinx matt handling of he said 'I hope you all get fucking cancer' which even I thought was a bit steep


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 18, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> shouldn't be so easily shocked but when the jury handed Noye a conviction for his part in the brinx matt handling of he said 'I hope you all get fucking cancer' which even I thought was a bit steep


Nothing has been heard from any of the jury members in years


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 18, 2016)

According to the Chicago Trubune :


> Once arrested, Mair also told detention officers that he was a "political activist," the court heard. Inside his bag, police found a single-barrel gun with one round still in the chamber, ammunition, a blood-stained knife and a bloodied mobile phone, authorities said.


----------



## 8den (Jun 18, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> steady on, camo trousers can be a good look with cherry red DM's and a decent hoody + hat



You are one of the guys from E17 who isn't Brian Harvey aren't you?


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 18, 2016)

8den said:


> You are one of the guys from E17 who isn't Brian Harvey aren't you?


Nah, more like Tackleberry from Police Academy


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Jun 18, 2016)

Idris2002 said:


> Michael Stone was a murderous loon, but he came out of a wider loyalist milieu. Just like Mr. Camo jacket came out of his neo-nazi milieu.



Yep, the milieu aspect is important, especially when one of the key strategies is 'leaderless resistance' which implies dropping out of infiltrated public groups and doing lone wolf actions on behalf of the 'nation' or whatever identified with by that milieu.

You can see that aspect with the Brievik case.

Breivik cherry-picked all kinds of stuff from all over the far right milieu, from actual Hitler fans to  zionist neo-fascists. It's not so much membership of any organised group as cross-fertilising ideas, themes and tactics across that milieu and identification with it.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 18, 2016)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> General question about murder, terrorism etc: am I right that there's no charge of aggravated murder (although it looks like there used to be eg for treason) in England and Wales, and aggravating factors only come into play in sentencing? Also, I can't find a specific aggravating factor of "terrorism", but there is for use of a gun, or knife?
> 
> Is that right, as I got a bit confused picking through the wiki articles (the actual statutes are beyond me, I'm afraid)?





There is just murder and only one sentence available for it too, life imprisonment. How long the minimum term you must serve before the parole board can consider releasing you under life licence is set by the judge and can range from zero days to whole life. There are guidelines, such as cop killer = 30 year min rec, a second separate murder = whole life. Would imagine as this was an assassination of an MP a whole life tariff may be imposed, or certainly nothing less than 40 years.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 18, 2016)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> General question about murder, terrorism etc: am I right that there's no charge of aggravated murder (although it looks like there used to be eg for treason) in England and Wales, and aggravating factors only come into play in sentencing? Also, I can't find a specific aggravating factor of "terrorism", but there is for use of a gun, or knife?
> 
> Is that right, as I got a bit confused picking through the wiki articles (the actual statutes are beyond me, I'm afraid)?



could i reiterate my call for tweets to be captured as screengrabs, using things like the snipping tool, so that a) people can see what they are without waiting for the tweet to load and b) so that it doesn't matter if the twitterer deletes the post or the account.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 18, 2016)

Has Mr Death to Traitors, Freedom for Britain got really massive hands?


----------



## 8den (Jun 18, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> There is just murder and only one sentence available for it too, life imprisonment. How long the minimum term you must serve before the parole board can consider releasing you under life licence is set by the judge and can range from zero days to whole life. There are guidelines, such as cop killer = 30 year min rec, a second separate murder = whole life. Would imagine as this was an assassination of an MP a whole life tariff may be imposed, or certainly nothing less than 40 years.



Either way it's unlikely he's leaving prison alive.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 18, 2016)

8den said:


> Either way it's unlikely he's leaving prison alive.


let's wait for him to be sentenced first, eh.


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Jun 18, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> could i reiterate my call for tweets to be captured as screengrabs, using things like the snipping tool, so that a) people can see what they are without waiting for the tweet to load and b) so that it doesn't matter if the twitterer deletes the post or the account.



What is your preferred policy on linking to video content, just so as we all know?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 18, 2016)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> What is your preferred policy on linking to video content, just so as we all know?


i'll let you know later just off out


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 18, 2016)

two sheds said:


> Possibly - a bit of a Catch 22 for him on that. His mental health history, and if (as suggested above) the help he had been getting had been stopped would be relevant though.


His MH history isn't necessarily relevant, unless it includes psychotic breaks. If it's "just" depression, there's not really a straight line that can be drawn from it to stabbing and shooting someone.


----------



## gosub (Jun 18, 2016)

CyberRose said:


> If you do a reverse image search on Google the BF page comes up as the first hit, but if you click the link looks like the page has been deleted...


http://www.britainfirst.org[link broken]/northern-brigade-activists-visit-26-mosques-across-dewsbury-and-bradford/


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 18, 2016)

existentialist said:


> If anyone has a clue, they will be making _very_ carefully sure that his martyrdom opportunities are kept to an absolute bare minimum.



it's not about having a clue, sadly. It's about staffing levels at (probably, given the "terrorism" element) Belmarsh or Wandsworth, and whether they can carry out the mandatory 15-minute checks on him. Mind you, if he's remanded to Belmarsh, he'll be sitting down with a lot of Britain First's hate figures, as it's where alleged Islamic terrorists are remanded, too.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 18, 2016)

kebabking said:


> agreed - he's pissed on his chips if he wanted to be treated with some element of kid gloves, he's going for it big style - i wouldn't be surprised if he tells the Jury that he's fucked their mums.
> 
> Belmarsh or Wakefield?



Given Wakefield's historic issues with staff membership of hard-right political parties...


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Jun 18, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> i'll let you know later just off out



I await your pronouncement.


----------



## Buckaroo (Jun 18, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Has Mr Death to Traitors, Freedom for Britain got really massive hands?



Well he's got blood on his silly gloved hands and he's got an utterly ridiculous name, he looks tame but he's a hero to some. This is meant to be payback. They should be raising the roof, he should be their man but they've bottled it, the spineless cunts.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 18, 2016)

Do people really think BF actually commissioned Mair to assassinate Cox?


----------



## bluescreen (Jun 18, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> Do people really think BF actually commissioned Mair to assassinate Cox?


No, but Mair may have thought so.


----------



## gosub (Jun 18, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> Do people really think BF actually commissioned Mair to assassinate Cox?



No.  But they have been more than playing with fire for their entire existence, and even now after photo emerged of what likes very much like him standing behind a BF banner and his statement in magistrates court,the youtube on the webpage has their deputy leader denying any link up and its just some tragic local dispute over mental illness.

I do think he is mentally ill (ill enough for Broadmoor rather than ordinary prision I don't know), but they definitely have culpability questions to answer.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 18, 2016)

gosub said:


> No.  But they have been more than playing with fire for their entire existence, and even now after photo emerged of what likes very much like him standing behind a BF banner and his statement in magistrates court,the youtube on the webpage has their deputy leader denying any link up and its just some tragic local dispute over mental illness.
> 
> I do think he is mentally ill (ill enough for Broadmoor rather than ordinary prision I don't know), but they definitely have culpability questions to answer.


_String him up._


----------



## gosub (Jun 18, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> _String him up._



Not a fan of the death penalty.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 18, 2016)

goddam nick cave, now I've got the 'red right hand' lyric in my head


----------



## teqniq (Jun 18, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> Of what?


Of frothing people on Twitter, but nevermind if you can't be bothered.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 18, 2016)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> I await your pronouncement.


Tbh no real policy being as video generally not as transient as tweets: do what your conscience dictates


----------



## CyberRose (Jun 18, 2016)

gosub said:


> http://www.britainfirst.org[link broken]/northern-brigade-activists-visit-26-mosques-across-dewsbury-and-bradford/


Ah yes, when I try to visit it says:

*462 Forbidden Region: *Your request for this resource had been blocked. This resource is not available in your region.

DOSarrest Internet Security is a cloud based fully managed DDoS protection service. This request has been blocked by DOSarrest due to the above violation. If you believe you are getting blocked in error please contact the administrator of www . britainfirst . org to resolve this issue.

So must just be my internet playing up


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 18, 2016)

teqniq said:


> Of frothing people on Twitter, but nevermind if you can't be bothered.


there were lots of people spraffing off about it on the jo cox timeline thing morning. i am not obliged to scour twitter just to please you


----------



## teqniq (Jun 18, 2016)

nope you certainly are not.

e2a it was 'of the time' and hours have passed since then


----------



## Wilf (Jun 18, 2016)

Latest poll showing a massive leave majority. Appears to be using a rather daft methodology*, but still interesting as the fieldwork looks to have been done since the murder:

Opinion polling for the United Kingdom European Union membership referendum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Edit: the BMG poll from a few days early makes some equally dodgy methodological assumptions, but I suspect will be nearer the mark ("Assumes "Don't knows" will break 2:1 in favour of Remain").


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 18, 2016)

Just saw this on Facebook.  It's supposed to be Mair. No idea where it's from though.


----------



## hot air baboon (Jun 18, 2016)

....no tattoo on the left arm....


----------



## cyril_smear (Jun 18, 2016)

...


----------



## Lurdan (Jun 18, 2016)

I read, or at least I think I read that there was a picture on twitter which could be Mair standing next to the violent ultra nationalist Vlad the Impaler. I had a good look but I couldn't find it anywhere, so I thought I could maybe try and recreate what it might look like. I found a picture of Vlad and I cropped out the picture of Mair in a combat jacket and put it on top.

But here's the thing - as I looked at it I started to feel a bit worried. If you look at it I think you'll see why. Well actually you can't see it properly because I haven't got the hang of merging the layers together, but if you can imagine.






The figure on the left could be Vlad but the figure on the right looks exactly like the picture of Mair. I'm actually feeling a bit concerned about how close the resemblance is. Do you think I ought to let someone know ?


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 18, 2016)

Incontrovertible


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 18, 2016)

Lurdan said:


> I read, or at least I think I read that there was a picture on twitter which could be Mair standing next to the violent ultra nationalist Vlad the Impaler. I had a good look but I couldn't find it anywhere, so I thought I could maybe try and recreate what it might look like. I found a picture of Vlad and I cropped out the picture of Mair in a combat jacket and put it on top.
> 
> But here's the thing - as I looked at it I started to feel a bit worried. If you look at it I think you'll see why. Well actually you can't see it properly because I haven't got the hang of merging the layers together, but if you can imagine.
> 
> ...


Sorry, could you just point out the cunt again and get back to your cloud please?


----------



## Biscuitician (Jun 18, 2016)

Not a couple of weeks ago Sargon of Arsewipe started a hashtage #iwouldntevenrape and sent a shitstorm of harassment to Jess Phillips. I wonder if something will come from this tragedy that deals with cunts like him.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 18, 2016)

Biscuitician said:


> Sargon of Arsewipe


who?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jun 18, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> who?


A cunt with a YouTube channel. To be fair, there are many of them.


----------



## A380 (Jun 18, 2016)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> General question about murder, terrorism etc: am I right that there's no charge of aggravated murder (although it looks like there used to be eg for treason) in England and Wales, and aggravating factors only come into play in sentencing? Also, I can't find a specific aggravating factor of "terrorism", but there is for use of a gun, or knife?
> 
> Is that right, as I got a bit confused picking through the wiki articles (the actual statutes are beyond me, I'm afraid)?


The aggravating ( or mitigating) factors are in the sentencing guidelines.

Sentencing - Mandatory life sentences in murder cases: Legal Guidance: Crown Prosecution Service

So terrorism, or politically motivated murder, would be C on the starting point for consideration of a whole life tariff.


----------



## Biscuitician (Jun 18, 2016)

FridgeMagnet said:


> A cunt with a YouTube channel. To be fair, there are many of them.



Sargon of Akkad. 

And yes, there are many of them, but not all of them are as popular and as influential as he appears to be - for a youtube channel. He has about 400,000 followers. 

FWIW


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jun 18, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> _String him up._



It's what he would have wanted.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 18, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> It's what he would have wanted.


Fuck off again. Just stay away.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jun 18, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Fuck off again. Just stay away.



Bizarre.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 18, 2016)

This leavist is taking flak on twitter...


----------



## Biscuitician (Jun 18, 2016)

brogdale said:


> This leavist is taking flak on twitter...



He doesn't seme bothered about the destiny of the west being decided by privileged inbred tree stumps


----------



## frogwoman (Jun 18, 2016)

Jo Cox's alleged killer supported the author of 'The Turner Diaries' — here's why that is so worrying


----------



## keybored (Jun 19, 2016)

cyril_smear said:


> ...


Gutted I missed that. You were always gvfm.


----------



## Obediah Marsh (Jun 19, 2016)

Bernie Gunther said:


> Breivik cherry-picked all kinds of stuff from all over the far right milieu, from actual Hitler fans to  zionist neo-fascists. It's not so much membership of any organised group as cross-fertilising ideas, themes and tactics across that milieu and identification with it.


Yes, the internet itself has become 'the group'. This is a new phenomenon with novel implications.


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Jun 19, 2016)

Not the internet itself, because the far-right milieu sharply defines itself against outsiders and traitors, e.g. (most) people here and is by no means confined to the 'net.

What the internet does do though, is provide a means for disseminating ideological material more widely.


----------



## Sparkle Motion (Jun 19, 2016)

gosub said:


> Up thread, one of the other named is apparently also on the leaked BNP database ...
> Me thinks there is a lot to this story, that won't all come out in the next week.


Did anyone substantiate this?

One would think all the fascists in a very small town would know, or know of, each other.


----------



## bi0boy (Jun 19, 2016)

Sparkle Motion said:


> Did anyone substantiate this?
> 
> One would think all the fascists in a very small town would know, or know of, each other.



Clarke Rothwell, the plumber/cafe owner who told the Guardian he heard "Britain First" is on this list: British National Party membership and contacts list, reference - WikiLeaks


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Jun 19, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Tories will not contest by...



How very kind of them....(to give UKIP a massively increased chance of winning the seat.)


----------



## frogwoman (Jun 19, 2016)

UKIP have said they won't contest it either


----------



## Biscuitician (Jun 19, 2016)

bi0boy said:


> Clarke Rothwell, the plumber/cafe owner who told the Guardian he heard "Britain First" is on this list: British National Party membership and contacts list, reference - WikiLeaks


Do the BNP and BF have beef with each other?

I think this is a good articl, from Leeds antifascists.

And...


----------



## brogdale (Jun 19, 2016)

frogwoman said:


> UKIP have said they won't contest it either


Correct; all the main parties (& the LDs) have confirmed that they will not contest. 
Can't see Fransen standing in this by, either?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 19, 2016)

Biscuitician said:


> Do the BNP and BF have beef with each other?
> 
> I think this is a good articl, from Leeds antifascists.
> 
> And...


Yes, the difference in front pages noted already


----------



## two sheds (Jun 19, 2016)

Biscuitician said:


> Do the BNP and BF have beef with each other?
> 
> I think this is a good articl, from Leeds antifascists.
> 
> And...



Yes interesting article: 



> Fascism is an ideology that feeds off the genuine concerns of working class communities – low pay, the housing crisis, a lack of control and self-determination – and places the blame at the feet of smaller disadvantaged groups, such as migrants, people of colour, minority faiths, the LGBT community, etc.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 19, 2016)

Out of curiosity has anyone found Jo Cox on redwatch?


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 19, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Correct; all the main parties (& the LDs) have confirmed that they will not contest.
> Can't see Fransen standing in this by, either?



Except this scrote 

"Jack Buckby: Today I'm announcing I'm standing for the Batley and Spen by-election. libertygb"


----------



## brogdale (Jun 19, 2016)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Except this scrote
> 
> "Jack Buckby: Today I'm announcing I'm standing for the Batley and Spen by-election. libertygb"


Probably trying to improve upon that Lewisham W. & Penge 2015 GE result of 44 (0.1%).


----------



## killer b (Jun 19, 2016)

There's no chance of the by election being anything but a landslide for whoever labour puts up: pointless wasting the resources on fighting it, as well as being good press to announce you aren't going to stand.


----------



## killer b (Jun 19, 2016)

(It's totally going to be brendan Cox btw)


----------



## likesfish (Jun 19, 2016)

Meet the Boy Wonder of the British Far-Right | VICE | United Kingdom

nasty little would be facist I imagine if he dares to step foot in batley he will be in for a harsh reception


----------



## Dogsauce (Jun 19, 2016)

killer b said:


> (It's totally going to be brendan Cox btw)



I thought the allegations from when he left Save The Children made it unlikely? I suspect they'll go for someone local and low-key, but there will be the temptation to drop Ed Balls back in (though suspect he's not favoured by the leadership).


----------



## killer b (Jun 19, 2016)

Under normal circumstances, perhaps. Who's going to raise that now though?


----------



## brogdale (Jun 19, 2016)

killer b said:


> Under normal circumstances, perhaps. Who's going to raise that now though?


Won't Lab select a(nother) woman candidate?


----------



## killer b (Jun 19, 2016)

Under normal circumstances, yeah.


----------



## cantsin (Jun 19, 2016)

Dogsauce said:


> I thought the allegations from when he left Save The Children made it unlikely? I suspect they'll go for someone local and low-key, but there will be the temptation to drop Ed Balls back in (though suspect he's not favoured by the leadership).



blimey, didn't know about that - would seem like a v bad idea dragging that out into the (inevitable) media spotlight, even if they tiptoed around it at first


----------



## editor (Jun 19, 2016)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Except this scrote
> 
> "Jack Buckby: Today I'm announcing I'm standing for the Batley and Spen by-election. libertygb"


Douche. No fucker is going to vote for the publicity seeking racist twat.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 19, 2016)

Can he use the name 'Liberty' to promote that?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 19, 2016)

editor said:


> Douche. No fucker is going to vote for the publicity seeking racist twat.



He has to find a number of local supporters to nominate him, who may vote for him, but I await the result with interest


----------



## editor (Jun 19, 2016)

Jack is a total cunt. An opportunistic loser.


----------



## frogwoman (Jun 19, 2016)

He is worried about sharia law but wants to bring back capital punishment?!


----------



## J Ed (Jun 19, 2016)

editor said:


> Jack is a total cunt. An opportunistic loser.




Liverpool based neo-Nazi isn't he?


----------



## Looby (Jun 19, 2016)

killer b said:


> Under normal circumstances, perhaps. Who's going to raise that now though?


People will bring it up, they already have. If he stands for election then it will be used against him at some point and probably the party as well. I don't think standing him would be a great idea. 
Uncomfortable as it is because of what he's going through, if what he was accused of is true (and I don't know the details) he shouldn't be standing unopposed for parliament.


----------



## elbows (Jun 19, 2016)

There is a crap hope not hate blog post from 2014 that goes on and on about how posh Buckby is, without saying anything about his family background and upbringing that would actually enable an evaluation of poshness.


----------



## elbows (Jun 19, 2016)

Looby said:


> People will bring it up, they already have. If he stands for election then it will be used against him at some point and probably the party as well. I don't think standing him would be a great idea.
> Uncomfortable as it is because of what he's going through, if what he was accused of is true (and I don't know the details) he shouldn't be standing unopposed for parliament.



Also don't know if he has the slightest interest in being an MP.


----------



## Looby (Jun 19, 2016)

elbows said:


> Also don't know if he has the slightest interest in being an MP.


True!


----------



## ddraig (Jun 19, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Out of curiosity has anyone found Jo Cox on redwatch?


not looked but been wondering whether there also a post about Jo Cox with "this bitch need to disappear" ??
don't think it was bf but think i saw it linked to one of the earlier screenshots on the day.
been looking but can't find


----------



## brogdale (Jun 19, 2016)

I'm 'reliably informed' (by the internets) that the last sentence of this piece has subsequently been edited out of the BBC report it appeared in....


> The UK faces an “existential choice” in the EU referendum from which there would be “no turning back”, Prime Minister David Cameron has said.
> Mr Cameron said choosing to leave the EU in Thursday’s vote would be a “big mistake” and lead to”  “debilitating uncertainty” for up to a decade.
> However, Member of Parliament, Michael Gove said the UK could become a “progressive beacon” by leaving the EU.
> The Leave campaigner urged people to “vote for democracy”.
> *Mr Cameron said the EU vote was the “ultimate democracy” and represented what Labour MP Jo Cox, who was killed on Thursday in her West Yorkshire constituency, had stood for.*


----------



## bi0boy (Jun 19, 2016)

brogdale said:


> I'm 'reliably informed' (by the internets) that the last sentence of this piece has subsequently been edited out of the BBC report it appeared in....
> ​



It was, but that appears to be because the article was changed substantially, for example to add in comments made today by Osborne.

Earlier version: Mr Cameron said the EU vote was the “ultimate democracy” and represented what Labour MP Jo Cox, who was killed on Thursday in her West Yorkshire const - Google Search
Current version: EU referendum: Campaigns resume with new warning - BBC News


----------



## brogdale (Jun 19, 2016)

bi0boy said:


> It was, but that appears to be because the article was changed substantially, for example to add in comments made today by Osborne.
> 
> Earlier version: Mr Cameron said the EU vote was the “ultimate democracy” and represented what Labour MP Jo Cox, who was killed on Thursday in her West Yorkshire const - Google Search
> Current version: EU referendum: Campaigns resume with new warning - BBC News


Even by his standards, that's pretty fucking crass.


----------



## Coolfonz (Jun 19, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Even by his standards, that's pretty fucking crass.


Can't he mention that now? Is that not allowed? She did write a piece urging a remain vote 2 days before she was killed. Published today I think.
Why does bringing up Cox's politics make the Brexit camp angry. Don't get it. She was big on the EU and Syrian refugees...

If a remainer stabbed Farage with a foot long knife shouting `put rights for refugees first` then shot him repeatedly, once at point blank in the head, would everyone have to keep quiet about Farage's politics and what he was about?


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 19, 2016)

brogdale said:


> I'm 'reliably informed' (by the internets) that the last sentence of this piece has subsequently been edited out of the BBC report it appeared in....



Hardly surprising. Has this been posted yet? 


There is an incredible theory that a Brexit won't actually happen even if the public votes for it


----------



## brogdale (Jun 19, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> Can't he mention that now? Is that not allowed? She did write a piece urging a remain vote 2 days before she was killed. Published today I think.
> Why does bringing up Cox's politics make the Brexit camp angry. Don't get it. She was big on the EU and Syrian refugees...
> 
> If a remainer stabbed Farage with a foot long knife shouting `put rights for refugees first` then shot him repeatedly, once at point blank in the head, would everyone have to keep quiet about Farage's politics and what he was about?


If you really can't see what's wrong with Cameron exploiting Cox's murder for party political gain..you need to have a bit of word with yourself tbh.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 19, 2016)

editor said:


> Jack is a total cunt. An opportunistic loser.





Good grief...my sunday was going so well...I thought this was a spoof at first...


----------



## Coolfonz (Jun 19, 2016)

brogdale said:


> If you really can't see what's wrong with Cameron exploiting Cox's murder for party political gain..you need to have a bit of word with yourself tbh.


Party gain? You mean referendum right. Isn't that what you just did though? `He can't mention her politics it's not fair to my views`? Don't get your original point. Its fair enough to point out she was a big remainer.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 19, 2016)

Racism, Islamaphobia, the gender pay gap...all myths, lies conjured up by the left... I couldn't finish it, probably because I can't handle the truth?  He's a 'culturist' apparently?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 19, 2016)




----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 19, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> He's a 'culturist' apparently?



He's a bellend who deserves nothing more than a good shoeing.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 19, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> Party gain? You mean referendum right. Isn't that what you just did though? `He can't mention her politics it's not fair to my views`? Don't get your original point. Its fair enough to point out she was a big remainer.


Shall we just get this clear, I'm not a leavist.
Moving on; you're saying it's OK for Cameron to implicitly encourage the electorate to vote for his party political position because it is what dead Jo would have wanted?


----------



## NoXion (Jun 19, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Racism, Islamaphobia, the gender pay gap...all myths, lies conjured up by the left... I couldn't finish it, probably because I can't handle the truth?  He's a 'culturist' apparently?



Another example of why people who put up pictures of Winston Churchill are fucking cunts.


----------



## Coolfonz (Jun 19, 2016)

fair dos re remain/brexit, apologies.
“I think I’ve been a politician that has been a victim of it [hatred] to be honest with you,” Farage.
In this light, yeah i think its entirely fair to point out Cox's politics. The Brexit campaign immediately spun this as a) a gentle man with mental health issues, killing b) a mother and c) you can't mention her politics or it makes us victims of propaganda. It's just a symbol of how powerful and entitled that bit of the right are.
If you were diced up in the road by a Nazi would you ike us all to keep schtum about who you were or your politics in case it pisses anyone off? I bet Cox would be fucking angry and tell everyone to give it both barrels, I know I would be.

Here is her piece: seems Cameron -for once- is telling the truth.

Jo Cox MP: Brexit is not the answer to UK immigration concerns


----------



## Poot (Jun 19, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Good grief...my sunday was going so well...I thought this was a spoof at first...



That's hilarious. It's like listening to a sixth former who's suddenly discovered politics during a conversation with his racist, sexist grandad. But I particularly love the graphics.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 19, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> fair dos re remain/brexit, apologies.
> “I think I’ve been a politician that has been a victim of it [hatred] to be honest with you,” Farage.
> In this light, yeah i think its entirely fair to point out Cox's politics. *The Brexit campaign immediately spun this as a) a gentle man with mental health issues*, killing b) a mother and c) you can't mention her politics or it makes us victims of propaganda. It's just a symbol of how powerful and entitled that bit of the right are.
> If you were diced up in the road by a Nazi would you ike us all to keep schtum about who you were or your politics in case it pisses anyone off? I bet Cox would be fucking angry and tell everyone to give it both barrels, I know I would be.
> ...


Where did the brexit campaign do this?


----------



## Coolfonz (Jun 19, 2016)

`“One man with serious mental health issues” that should not be allowed to influence the campaign.` Farage.
Just check Breitbart, Spectator, Brendan O'Neill. All the reductive stuff in the media about his mental health.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 19, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> `“One man with serious mental health issues” that should not be allowed to influence the campaign.` Farage.
> Just check Breitbart, Spectator, Brendan O'Neill. All the reductive stuff in the media about his mental health.



Which bit of all of that is the quote, exactly? Where is the word "gentle"? Where is the Brexit _Campaign _saying any of this?


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 19, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> `“One man with serious mental health issues” that should not be allowed to influence the campaign.` Farage.
> Just check Breitbart, Spectator, Brendan O'Neill. All the reductive stuff in the media about his mental health.


Have another go. It's quite important that you do.


----------



## Coolfonz (Jun 19, 2016)

The bit in the quote. 
Farage isn't in the Brexit campaign? 
I see what you mean, you don't count anyone other than party officials etc as the `_campaign`_, ok fair enough, in which case Brexit cheerleaders/supporters.

What do you think of her piece?


----------



## Coolfonz (Jun 19, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Have another go. It's quite important that you do.


"Important?" It's a fucking internet forum of about 150 people mate/ma'am, it's not important. Nothing here is `important`. The full English thread is more important. Jesus. 

Jo Cox MP: Brexit is not the answer to UK immigration concerns


----------



## brogdale (Jun 19, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> In this light, yeah i think *its entirely fair to point out Cox's politics*.
> If you were diced up in the road by a Nazi would you ike us all to keep schtum about who you were or your politics in case it pisses anyone off? I bet Cox would be fucking angry and tell everyone to give it both barrels, I know I would be.
> 
> Here is her piece: seems Cameron -for once- is telling the truth.
> ...


But look at what he said...


> *Mr Cameron said the EU vote was the “ultimate democracy” and represented what Labour MP Jo Cox, who was killed on Thursday in her West Yorkshire constituency, had stood for.*


Even Cameron does not dare to explicitly point out her remainarian position; knowing that would be judged to be too crass, he goes for the implied association by juxtaposing her name and the 'ultimate democracy' of the vote.
As calculated as it is shabby.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 19, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> Jo Cox MP: Brexit is not the answer to UK immigration concerns


2nd fail


----------



## Coolfonz (Jun 19, 2016)

brogdale said:


> But look at what he said...
> ​Even Cameron does not dare to explicitly point out her remainarian position; knowing that would be judged to be too crass, he goes for the implied association by juxtaposing her name and the 'ultimate democracy' of the vote.
> As calculated as it is shabby.


Sure but Christ, it's Cameron, shabby is/does. What are we expecting here.
But I don't get the timidity of wanting to hide her position. Or why connecting that to why she would attract the attention of mild-mannered gardening-for-the-neighbours not-political local Nazi weirdos, is a bad thing.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 19, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> Sure but Christ, it's Cameron, shabby is/does. *What are we expecting here.*
> But I don't get the timidity of wanting to hide her position. Or why connecting that to why she would attract the attention of mild-mannered gardening-for-the-neighbours not-political local Nazi weirdos, is a bad thing.


Don't know about 'we', but I was expecting to be able to cast Cameron's conduct as 'pretty fucking crass' or 'shabby' without knee-jerk, remainarian flak.


----------



## Coolfonz (Jun 19, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Don't know about 'we', but I was expecting to be able to cast Cameron's conduct as 'pretty fucking crass' or 'shabby' without knee-jerk, remainarian flak.


Pretty mild flack. I'm sure you're a nice chap/lady. He is shabby as a given. But he's too timid. Cox was killed because of her politics - possible hatred of women interlinked too - don't really see the problem in saying that. She was a definite remainer yeah? She wasn't a waverer. I don't really see your objections to that being pointed out. Brexit supporters eager as hell to point out it is them who are the real victims of it all, after all.


----------



## nino_savatte (Jun 19, 2016)

I once trolled Buckby on Twitter. He was crapping on about 'freedom' and he could only offer me a checklist of _his_ 'freedoms'. Thick bastard. 

He'll be lucky to scrape together 100 votes.


----------



## nino_savatte (Jun 19, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Liverpool based neo-Nazi isn't he?


I'd heard he was booted out of Liverpool University.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 19, 2016)

nino_savatte said:


> I'd heard he was booted out of Liverpool University.


He proudly boasts about that on the front page of his website.... Kicked out for refusing to abide by 'politically correct' university rules. Clearly a hard man.


----------



## nino_savatte (Jun 19, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> He proudly boasts about that on the front page of his website.... Kicked out for refusing to abide by 'politically correct' university rules. Clearly a hard man.


I watched a few seconds of his rant about multiculturalism on YouTube and it was hilarious. It went something along the lines of 1. Multiculturalism won't work because of 'the problems we face', and 2. It's wrong. Great argument.


----------



## Guineveretoo (Jun 19, 2016)

killer b said:


> (It's totally going to be brendan Cox btw)


He may wish to focus his time on his two small children.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 19, 2016)

killer b said:


> (It's totally going to be brendan Cox btw)


No, too much baggage


----------



## Guineveretoo (Jun 19, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Shall we just get this clear, I'm not a leavist.
> Moving on; you're saying it's OK for Cameron to implicitly encourage the electorate to vote for his party political position because it is what dead Jo would have wanted?


He doesn't have a party political position on the referendum, as it happens.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 19, 2016)

Guineveretoo said:


> He doesn't have a party political position on the referendum, as it happens.


He really does.


----------



## Guineveretoo (Jun 19, 2016)

brogdale said:


> He really does.


The Conservative Party, of which Cameron is leader, doesn't have a party political position on the referendum. 

There is an official government position, but not a party political one. 

Strange but true. 

But this is a silly argument and detracting from the horror of what happened on Thursday. 

Move on, eh?


----------



## andysays (Jun 19, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> Sure but Christ, it's Cameron, shabby is/does. What are we expecting here.
> But I don't get the timidity of wanting to hide her position. Or why connecting that to why she would attract the attention of mild-mannered gardening-for-the-neighbours not-political local Nazi weirdos, is a bad thing.


Here's that Cameron quote again


> Mr Cameron said the EU vote was the “ultimate democracy” and represented what Labour MP Jo Cox, who was killed on Thursday in her West Yorkshire constituency, had stood for.


Maybe I'm reading something into it which you can't see, but that comes across to me as Cameron saying that what Jo Cox stood for, ie a vote to Remain*, is a vote for democracy and that, by implication, *a vote to Leave is somehow opposed to democracy*.

No one is saying anyone should hide her position, but Cameron is blatantly exploiting her murder by suggesting, in effect, that if we don't vote Remain we're somehow sullying her memory. There have been a few comments previously which have had a taste of that about them, but this one is utterly sickening to my mind, and pointing this out is in no way an attack on Jo Cox and her position or her memory, it's 100% a criticism of Cameron.

* he's clearly referring specifically to this one thing, rather than any of the other things she stood for, many of which were in direct contradiction to what he and his party stand for.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 19, 2016)

Guineveretoo said:


> The Conservative Party, of which Cameron is leader, doesn't have a party political position on the referendum.
> 
> There is an official government position, but not a party political one.
> 
> ...


Fairynuff.


----------



## andysays (Jun 19, 2016)

Guineveretoo said:


> He doesn't have a party political position on the referendum, as it happens.



The whole reason we're having this referendum is to prop up Cameron's party's position, and Cameron's position within his party.


----------



## Guineveretoo (Jun 19, 2016)

andysays said:


> The whole reason we're having this referendum is to prop up Cameron's party's position, and Cameron's position within his party.


That's kind of true, but it doesn't alter the fact that his party does not support him it.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 19, 2016)

Guineveretoo said:


> That's kind of true, but it doesn't alter the fact that his party does not support him it.


Actually, (on paper) >50% of the Parliamentary tory party have declared as Remain in support of Cameron's membership of a 'reformed' EU.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 19, 2016)

Guineveretoo said:


> That's kind of true, but it doesn't alter the fact that his party does not support him it.


Yeah they do. A clear majority of the MPs  - and that's what counts in the way they run things - does.


----------



## Guineveretoo (Jun 19, 2016)

There is no official Tory Party line on the referendum. There is an official Labour Party line and an official Lib Dem party line. And probably an official party line of other parties.

That was the only point I was making. 

Shall we move on now?


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 19, 2016)

Which is completely different from the Conservative party supporting a position. It does it supports Remain, the majority of it's MPs support Remain, it's leadership support Remain, it's backers support Remain. To take the lack of an offical position as a marker of the actually political position is blind.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 19, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> "Important?" It's a fucking internet forum of about 150 people mate/ma'am, it's not important. Nothing here is `important`. The full English thread is more important. Jesus.
> 
> Jo Cox MP: Brexit is not the answer to UK immigration concerns


So, you can't actually supply evidence supporting the claims you've made. What a fucking surprise.


----------



## Dogsauce (Jun 19, 2016)

andysays said:


> Here's that Cameron quote again
> 
> 
> > Mr Cameron said the EU vote was the “ultimate democracy” and represented what Labour MP Jo Cox, who was killed on Thursday in her West Yorkshire constituency, had stood for.
> ...



Much as I hate to defend the pig fucker, I can't see the word remain in that sentence. Isn't he just saying that voting (i.e. Participating in the democratic process) is what she stood for? That's kind of how I read it.


----------



## teqniq (Jun 19, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Racism, Islamaphobia, the gender pay gap...all myths, lies conjured up by the left... I couldn't finish it, probably because I can't handle the truth?  He's a 'culturist' apparently?



I can think of another 'c' word which I'd much prefer.


----------



## eoin_k (Jun 19, 2016)

...


----------



## NoXion (Jun 20, 2016)

eoin_k said:


> ...



???


----------



## eoin_k (Jun 20, 2016)

NoXion said:


> ???



I realised it was the wrong thread for me to stick my oar in about Churchillian iconography in political campaigns.


----------



## teqniq (Jun 20, 2016)

Fair enough but I bet a fair few people spotted the photo in the background.


----------



## gawkrodger (Jun 20, 2016)

More from the SPLC

Accused British Assassin Thomas Mair Attended Racists' 2000 Meeting


----------



## mrs quoad (Jun 20, 2016)

gawkrodger said:


> More from the SPLC
> 
> Accused British Assassin Thomas Mair Attended Racists' 2000 Meeting


That looks a lot dodgier than their first source (!) A bloke who, in his first linked interview there, describes himself as 'very opportunistically inclined' with an acknowledged history of far right group membership, suddenly claims to've been a paid informer for MI5 and the FBI (neither of which is mentioned in that first interview), and that he was flown to the UK 'with a group of federal agents who were his controllers,' in order to talk to a group of far right politicians and junior oddballs about buying some record companies. (A deal which does appear to've been grounded in reality). And which Tommy Mair just happens to've been present at - and, sixteen years on, this 'opportunistically inclined' bloke can remember details of their conversation, and Mair's benefit status.

Maybe this is entirely grounded in truth, but this currently smells dodgy as fuck to my nose. Also sounds like one of the biggest FBI jollies / junkets in years


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jun 20, 2016)

Regardless of the dodginess or otherwise of this convenient smoking gun, the chap in the article doesn't claim



mrs quoad said:


> ...to've been a paid informer for MI5 and the FBI...



It describes him as:



> an American who was then a paid informant for the FBI and also met with MI5


----------



## gosub (Jun 20, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Actually, (on paper) >50% of the Parliamentary tory party have declared as Remain in support of Cameron's membership of a 'reformed' EU.



A lot of that is payroll (bag handlers upwards ) drawing government salary.  [A long way from the thread title]


----------



## killer b (Jun 20, 2016)

I encountered a character on fb who claimed that by giving his name as 'freedom for britain, death to traitors', Mair was in fact 'using common law' in order to 'refuse to enter into a contract' with the court.

Has there been any connection made between him and any of the FOTL lot?


----------



## Dogsauce (Jun 20, 2016)

Weird that this is all coming from the SPL - was he not known to UK anti-fascists or the likes of Searchlight?  There seems to be little in the way of 'local' gen appearing on this guy.  Did he keep a low profile, or are there reasons such as not prejudicing a trial forcing the more mainstream sources from not publicising any links they've made?  

Was it confirmed that the BF Dewsbury demo photo was him or not?  The build/height looked wrong to me.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 20, 2016)

Dogsauce said:


> Weird that this is all coming from the SPL


not really

have you noticed any er changes in searchlight over the past 10, 15 years?

as for what anti-fascists knew or didn't know, do you know all the fascists down your way? have you carried out risk assessments on them all?


----------



## bluescreen (Jun 20, 2016)

killer b said:


> I encountered a character on fb who claimed that by giving his name as 'freedom for britain, death to traitors', Mair was in fact 'using common law' in order to 'refuse to enter into a contract' with the court.
> 
> Has there been any connection made between him and any of the FOTL lot?


I'd lay money on his sacking his lawyer after the bail hearing - if he doesn't get remanded to a secure hospital, that is.


----------



## killer b (Jun 20, 2016)

Dogsauce said:


> Weird that this is all coming from the SPL - was he not known to UK anti-fascists or the likes of Searchlight?  There seems to be little in the way of 'local' gen appearing on this guy.  Did he keep a low profile, or are there reasons such as not prejudicing a trial forcing the more mainstream sources from not publicising any links they've made?
> 
> Was it confirmed that the BF Dewsbury demo photo was him or not?  The build/height looked wrong to me.


I think London Black Revolutionaries were posting some info about him the day after? Believe he was known.


----------



## existentialist (Jun 20, 2016)

bluescreen said:


> I'd lay money on his sacking his lawyer after the bail hearing - if he doesn't get remanded to a secure hospital, that is.


Yeah, it's usually SOP for the loony defence strategy - adopt an "unhelpful" name, then fire all your lawyers and insist on doing your own defence.

In a way, it makes sense - if the whole purpose of the activity is to put "the establishment" on the back foot and grandstand for the benefit of your slightly-less-loony friends, there's not many better ways of doing that to an establishment trying to give the appearance of giving fair trials, etc. than by sabotaging the process at every opportunity.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jun 20, 2016)

Poundland Breivik behaviour to be sure.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 20, 2016)

killer b said:


> I think London Black Revolutionaries were posting some info about him the day after? Believe he was known.


believe lbr quite handy with the google, the first thing which seems to have come out was the cyber thing from s.a. then all the stuff from the splc and so on.

e2a: a google for "thomas mair" "batley" -cox brings this up: ht tp: //spri ngbo kcybernews letter.blogspot.co.uk/2006/01/january-2006-editi on.html among other things

not to mention that once you start shouting 'britain first' people are going to start looking at that milieu, and once you start looking there's quite a bit to find. but lbr's claim that the 'white left' ignored britain first's a bit of a non-starter.


----------



## existentialist (Jun 20, 2016)

DaveCinzano said:


> Poundland Breivik behaviour to be sure.


That was in my mind, but I wasn't sure if it was rather a cheap shot at this point. But yeah


----------



## Idris2002 (Jun 20, 2016)

DaveCinzano said:


> Poundland Breivik behaviour to be sure.








(NB, if this is over the line, I'll delete it)


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 20, 2016)

It's tottenhmam lads

Why is that pic of bristol there?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jun 20, 2016)

Idris2002 said:


> (NB, if this is over the line, I'll delete it)



It's _What Jo Would've Wanted_


----------



## sim667 (Jun 20, 2016)

I see apologists are all over Facebook bleeting on about Mair's mental illnesses causing him to kill Jo Cox.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 20, 2016)

Idris2002 said:


> (NB, if this is over the line, I'll delete it)


don't bother


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 20, 2016)

sim667 said:


> I see apologists are all over Facebook bleeting on about Mair's mental illnesses causing him to kill Jo Cox.


these would be the same mental illnesses which made him chuck a load of money to the national alliance for a range of peculiar titles.


----------



## JimW (Jun 20, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> these would be the same mental illnesses which made him chuck a load of money to the national alliance for a range of peculiar titles.


You'd be mad not to at those low, low prices for low, low ideas.


----------



## existentialist (Jun 20, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> these would be the same mental illnesses which made him chuck a load of money to the national alliance for a range of peculiar titles.


Any mental illness he has is probably relevant more in terms of what he chose to do with his beliefs than to what those beliefs were in the first place.

There are plenty of thoroughly unpleasant hard-right nutjobs out there who'd draw the line a long way back from going out and killing someone. And, of course, there are plenty of people out there with even very severe mental health problems who are absolutely no threat whatsoever to anyone (except possibly themselves).

The mental illness thing is almost entirely a red herring, IMO. Certainly at this stage of proceedings, anyway - it might become relevant when, when/if he is convicted, decisions need to be made about what to do with him.


----------



## Idris2002 (Jun 20, 2016)

existentialist said:


> Any mental illness he has is probably relevant more in terms of what he chose to do with his beliefs than to what those beliefs were in the first place.
> 
> There are plenty of thoroughly unpleasant hard-right nutjobs out there who'd draw the line a long way back from going out and killing someone. And, of course, there are plenty of people out there with even very severe mental health problems who are absolutely no threat whatsoever to anyone (except possibly themselves).
> 
> The mental illness thing is almost entirely a red herring, IMO. Certainly at this stage of proceedings, anyway - it might become relevant when, when/if he is convicted, decisions need to be made about what to do with him.


I read this about Breivik over lunch. It does say he had mental health issues, but puts the blame squarely on the milieu he moved in.



Other far rightists didn't like him either, but he definitley drank their kool-aid all the same - and a key influence in making him shift gears up to the use of force was the rhetorical violence of an anti-Islamic movement that was purportedly opposed to violent methods.


----------



## billy_bob (Jun 20, 2016)

existentialist said:


> Any mental illness he has is probably relevant more in terms of what he chose to do with his beliefs than to what those beliefs were in the first place.
> 
> There are plenty of thoroughly unpleasant hard-right nutjobs out there who'd draw the line a long way back from going out and killing someone. And, of course, there are plenty of people out there with even very severe mental health problems who are absolutely no threat whatsoever to anyone (except possibly themselves).
> 
> The mental illness thing is almost entirely a red herring, IMO. Certainly at this stage of proceedings, anyway - it might become relevant when, when/if he is convicted, decisions need to be made about what to do with him.



Totally right. And it's largely being talked about ('out there', not here) as if it determines whether he is or isn't responsible. But many, if not most, mental illnesses are entirely compatible with knowing right from wrong on as basic a level as whether it's OK to brutally murder someone.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Jun 20, 2016)

Corbyn speaking in the commons now as parliament is recalled

Channel 4 News


----------



## shaman75 (Jun 20, 2016)

killer b said:


> I encountered a character on fb who claimed that by giving his name as 'freedom for britain, death to traitors', Mair was in fact 'using common law' in order to 'refuse to enter into a contract' with the court.
> 
> Has there been any connection made between him and any of the FOTL lot?



He seems to have forgotten all about it today:



> When asked by the judge to confirm he was Thomas Mair, he replied: "Yes, I am."


Jo Cox MP death: Thomas Mair appears at Old Bailey - BBC News


----------



## gosub (Jun 20, 2016)

billy_bob said:


> Totally right. And it's largely being talked about ('out there', not here) as if it determines whether he is or isn't responsible. But many, if not most, mental illnesses are entirely compatible with knowing right from wrong on as basic a level as whether it's OK to brutally murder someone.


Also determines whether he is fit enough to stand trial.


----------



## billy_bob (Jun 20, 2016)

gosub said:


> Also determines whether he is fit enough to stand trial.



Yes, sorry. But it's still not just a matter of 'if he's got a mental illness, he isn't'. In too much of the public imagination (and thanks to the media of course), any mental illness = knife-wielding homicidal maniac.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 20, 2016)

shaman75 said:


> He seems to have forgotten all about it today:
> 
> 
> Jo Cox MP death: Thomas Mair appears at Old Bailey - BBC News


His lawyer probably mentioned it might reduce his chances of avoiding a lifetime of heavy meds


----------



## gosub (Jun 20, 2016)

billy_bob said:


> Yes, sorry. But it's still not just a matter of 'if he's got a mental illness, he isn't'. In too much of the public imagination (and thanks to the media of course), any mental illness = knife-wielding homicidal maniac.



Can't disagree.  Though I would say mental illnesses are common enough that most people will know the sufferers (I am one) that they encounter on a daily basis ain't in the vast majority knife-wielding homicidal maniacs.   I do think however we might think again about the mental issues when we look at at  Leytonstone tube attacker - not so much the Lee RIgby murder (shared disillusions (particularly of a politic nature) are a different kettle of fish).

And I do acknowledge the calls have an element of sloped shoulders by Leave campaigners, though in the main they haven't previously be advocating dressing as pseudo para-militarys to go round violently intimidating the focus of their ire.  Can I reserve a particular contempt for Louise Mensch however for her faux concerns to mental health, legal process (today in Parliament shouldn't have been allowed as it will impact on Mr Mair's right to a fair trial), and the well being of MP's (they now show could conduct relations with their constituents form the safety of police stations apparently).  I get that MP's will, more than Joe Random be the focus of the mal-aligned but the efforts would be better spent on everyone feeling comfortable those suffering mental illness can access adequate treatment rather than cocooning MPs away from those they are supposed to represent.   Though, either way, tragedies will still happen


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 20, 2016)

Jo Cox killing: Thomas Mair to face judge under terrorism protocols


----------



## killer b (Jun 20, 2016)

I'm curious what these 'terrorism protocols' all the papers are talking about are. None of them seem to give any details...


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Jun 20, 2016)

Does 'tried under terrorism protocols' mean extra reporting restrictions?


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Jun 20, 2016)

Heh


----------



## killer b (Jun 20, 2016)

Bernie Gunther said:


> Does 'tried under terrorism protocols' mean extra reporting restrictions?


I was thinking that. Security at the trial, stuff like that maybe?


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Jun 20, 2016)

Could be really convenient for the state if there was a gagging order like that Erol Incedal case ... 

Both politically in the Brexit context and for hushing up anything that might embarrass the security sevices and/or special branch


----------



## two sheds (Jun 20, 2016)

Might mean terrorism laws apply to anyone who assisted him?


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 20, 2016)

killer b said:


> I'm curious what these 'terrorism protocols' all the papers are talking about are. None of them seem to give any details...


i'm not sure either. The Times and other outlets suggest that it means a quick trial and that he'll be tried under a senior judge


----------



## belboid (Jun 20, 2016)

The key parts of the terrorist protocols were usually around pre-charge detention - which clearly doesn't apply - closed proceedings and special advocates to hear secret evidence against the detainee, and the possibility that evidence against detainees may include evidence obtained in other countries by torture. I doubt they'd apply either.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 20, 2016)

diplock?


----------



## belboid (Jun 20, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> diplock?


abolished almost ten years ago


----------



## ddraig (Jun 20, 2016)

killer b said:


> I think London Black Revolutionaries were posting some info about him the day after? Believe he was known.


LBR were posting stuff that was uncovered by Leeds Antifa and not correcting people when they were being congratulated for good investigation skills
(e2a or so it looked to me anyway)


----------



## gosub (Jun 20, 2016)

billy_bob said:


> Yes, sorry. But it's still not just a matter of 'if he's got a mental illness, he isn't'. In too much of the public imagination (and thanks to the media of course), any mental illness = knife-wielding homicidal maniac.



Leytonstone knife attack: man convicted of attempted murder 

Mire is being held in Broadmoor, having been convicted of attempted murder earlier this month.  He will be sentenced next month.


----------



## Dogsauce (Jun 20, 2016)

Bernie Gunther said:


> Does 'tried under terrorism protocols' mean extra reporting restrictions?



Maybe they're doing it so he doesn't get to grandstand and spout propaganda (like Breivik did)?  If his words aren't reported, it means he doesn't get the audience and attention he wanted, and thus might deter others.  It's not as though he tried to get away with it, so obviously spouting crap during the trial is part of his intention (as seen already), denying him an audience for this has some value.


----------



## billy_bob (Jun 20, 2016)

gosub said:


> Leytonstone knife attack: man convicted of attempted murder
> 
> Mire is being held in Broadmoor, having been convicted of attempted murder earlier this month.  He will be sentenced next month.



Yeah, explicitly clarifies the point that 'mentally ill' and 'legally insane' aren't the same thing. But the report does give the impression that a fair bit of time may have been spent in court trying to get witnesses to identify him as insane who really weren't qualified to make that call. 

The colloquial language of mental disturbance of one sort or another is so pervasive in our society - we think we know what witness X means when she says 'he looked crazy/mental/insane/like he wasn't all there' or any of the other common expressions, even if we don't necessarily all understand exactly the same thing by it. It's quite easy for a lawyer on either side to elide the differences between that and any expert opinion on type and severity of actual mental illness if it suits the direction they want to take things in.

(not that I'm saying I think the jury's being mislead into a particular view in the Leytonstone case - just struck by how woolly the language and thinking can be around how mental illness and acts of violence/criminality do or don't relate to each other...)


----------



## existentialist (Jun 20, 2016)

billy_bob said:


> (not that I'm saying I think the jury's being mislead into a particular view in the Leytonstone case - just struck by how woolly the language and thinking can be around how mental illness and acts of violence/criminality do or don't relate to each other...)


It's a fairly tricky area, not least because of the stigma and stereotyping that goes on around both mental illness and crime. The characteristics we popularly apply to both mental illness and criminality overlap in the public perception to a degree far greater than the reality indicates. But since policy is at the very least influenced by popular attitudes, the result is that the criminal justice system ends up having to deal with cases on a basis that is not terribly helpful in providing appropriate channels. Hence the way such a substantial proportion of those in prison have diagnosable mental health problems, and the desire to rule in or out ("mad" or "bad") whether someone's mental health condition is responsible for the crime. The latter being important because popular opinion puts great weight on the punishment aspect of sentencing, so the question of someone's mental illness "letting them off lightly" rears its ugly head.


----------



## gosub (Jun 20, 2016)

existentialist said:


> It's a fairly tricky area, not least because of the stigma and stereotyping that goes on around both mental illness and crime. The characteristics we popularly apply to both mental illness and criminality overlap in the public perception to a degree far greater than the reality indicates. But since policy is at the very least influenced by popular attitudes, the result is that the criminal justice system ends up having to deal with cases on a basis that is not terribly helpful in providing appropriate channels. Hence the way such a substantial proportion of those in prison have diagnosable mental health problems, and the desire to rule in or out ("mad" or "bad") whether someone's mental health condition is responsible for the crime. The latter being important because popular opinion puts great weight on the punishment aspect of sentencing, so the question of someone's mental illness "letting them off lightly" rears its ugly head.


As Pickman's had it up thread.  Chemical cosh ain't the easy ticket either


----------



## Dan U (Jun 20, 2016)

Whatever the outcome, no home secretary is ever going to sign off his release.


----------



## 8den (Jun 20, 2016)

Mo


killer b said:


> I was thinking that. Security at the trial, stuff like that maybe?



Yes, and the trial at the Old Bailey.


----------



## joevsimp (Jun 20, 2016)

yeah I'm surprised that they whisked him straight to Belmarsh, would've thought that they'd've committed him at Huddersfield or Leeds magistrates' beforehand,


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 20, 2016)

joevsimp said:


> yeah I'm surprised that they whisked him straight to Belmarsh, would've thought that they'd've committed him at Huddersfield or Leeds magistrates' beforehand,


it's the go to prison for terror suspects


----------



## gosub (Jun 20, 2016)

Stephen Kinnock MP said:
			
		

> "I can only imagine Jo’s reaction had she seen the poster that was unveiled hours before her death—a poster on the streets of Britain that demonised hundreds of desperate refugees, including hungry, terrified children, fleeing from the terror of ISIS and from Russian bombs. She would have responded with outrage, and with a robust rejection of the calculated narrative of cynicism, division and despair that it represents, because Jo understood that rhetoric has consequences. When insecurity, fear and anger are used to light a fuse, an explosion is inevitable."



Digital forensics will out.


----------



## discokermit (Jun 21, 2016)

what if bernard kenny turned out to be ukip? kinda lol?


----------



## sealion (Jun 21, 2016)

joevsimp said:


> yeah I'm surprised that they whisked him straight to Belmarsh, would've thought that they'd've committed him at Huddersfield or Leeds magistrates' beforehand,


Belmarsh has another prison within the prison for high risk cat A inmates along with an isolation block on the hospital wing.


----------



## nino_savatte (Jun 21, 2016)

Sea Lion said:


> Belmarsh has another prison within the prison for high risk cat A inmates along with an isolation block on the hospital wing.


There are also two other prisons within the complex: HMP Thameside and the wonderfully named HMP Isis (yes, I know that's the alternative name for the Thames).


----------



## 2hats (Jun 21, 2016)

Guineveretoo said:


> He may wish to focus his time on his two small children.


That and the fact that he believes that she wouldn't have been happy with a male MP replacing a female MP under such circumstances, he has now said.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 21, 2016)

Has anyone posted this? 



> A Tory councillor has been suspended after responding to news of a memorial fund set up after Labour MP Jo Cox was killed by saying “I’ve just donated the steam off my p***”.



Tory councillor suspended over Facebook post about Jo Cox memorial fund



> Dominic Peacock apologises and tells The Independent he was 'tired and emotional'



 clearly a Private Eye reader.


----------



## Teaboy (Jun 21, 2016)

two sheds said:


> Has anyone posted this?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I saw that.  Given how quickly the local tories have moved to kick him out suggests he has very few friends even in his own party.  Where do they find these local councillors from?


----------



## cyril_smear (Jun 21, 2016)

belboid said:


> abolished almost ten years ago



Im sure there was one in pretty recent years involving a gangster.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 21, 2016)

cyril_smear said:


> Im sure there was one in pretty recent years involving a gangster.


Diplock courts - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## killer b (Jun 21, 2016)

Teaboy said:


> I saw that.  Given how quickly the local tories have moved to kick him out suggests he has very few friends even in his own party.  Where do they find these local councillors from?


They pretty much have to take anyone who offers.


----------



## bi0boy (Jun 21, 2016)

Teaboy said:


> I saw that.  Given how quickly the local tories have moved to kick him out suggests he has very few friends even in his own party.  Where do they find these local councillors from?



Not many people want to be a councillor these days. In some wards it can very hard for certain parties to find anyone to stand.


----------



## joevsimp (Jun 21, 2016)

cyril_smear said:


> Im sure there was one in pretty recent years involving a gangster.



that was a special case due to two previous cases collapsing because of jury knobbling

personally I think that there should be no distinctions (other than necessary security concerns) around trying terrorists, they should never have charged Lee Rigby's killers with "terrorist offences" either, murder is murder


----------



## cyril_smear (Jun 21, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Diplock courts - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



So ye, there was one in a 2009 in England.


----------



## cyril_smear (Jun 21, 2016)

Also, going off the font of all knowledge that is wikipedia, complex cases of fraud can be heard without a jury.

Also, magistrates can hear a trial without a jury.


----------



## 8den (Jun 21, 2016)

cyril_smear said:


> Also, going off the font of all knowledge that is wikipedia, complex cases of fraud can be heard without a jury.
> .



Out of necessity. Fraud trials can take years, and can involve a lot of technical information. All it takes is one or two jurors to take ill or a family emergency and its start all over.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 21, 2016)

cyril_smear said:


> Also, going off the font of all knowledge that is wikipedia, complex cases of fraud can be heard without a jury.
> 
> Also, magistrates can hear a trial without a jury.


And always do


----------



## belboid (Jun 21, 2016)

cyril_smear said:


> So ye, there was one in a 2009 in England.


under the auspices of the CJA 2003, not Diplock's [/pedant]


----------



## cyril_smear (Jun 21, 2016)

belboid said:


> under the auspices of the CJA 2003, not Diplock's [/pedant]



There was also one on norn Ireland as well I think?

A lot and of of countries have trials without a jury. The pros and cons of this which are for another thread.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Jun 22, 2016)

Just caught up with this thread having been in northern ireland for the past week – cant plough through it all so apologies if this repeats what others have already said.  

I im a bit shaken by this as  Im in leeds -  never met Jo Cox or knew much about her - but it was pretty sickening to hear of this happening on my own doorstep - and I used to work in Batley Carr. Pretty much agree with the Leeds AntiFa statment - (Statement regarding Jo Cox) .


To me this is a sickening example of what happens when people in positions of influence whip up fear and hatred - it legitimises extreme positions and it makes those driven by hate politics and attracted to acts of narcissistic violence more likely to translate their warped fantasies into ugly reality.  I came face to face with Farage a couple of weeks ago and called him a lieing, racist, shit stirrer. As far as im concerned that cunt now has blood on his hands.


I don't think this happening in the middle of the EU referendum is a coincidence either - its seriously upped the ante and increased the amount of spittle and rage from the racists, xenophobes, nationalists and other assorted wingnuts. A few weeks ago I was talking with my brother - an ardent UKIPer - and was taken aback with the vehemence of his views on the EU - bollocks to the shock to the economy, that was small beer - as  far he was concerned the EU was "a totally evil institution" bent on dominance and anybody who “cared about freedom and democracy” must vote for brexit.


The focus on his Thomas Mair's "mental health problems" is as predictable as it is inaccurate - not to mention deeply unhelpful in the combating popular misconceptions. Unless he was suffering from psychotic, violent delusions its completely fucking irrelevant. As others have pointed out - everything points to it being a  case of someone - like brevik - who has obsessively immersed themselves in far right ideology and taken it on board to the point where they feel justified in carry out a murderous crusade - in other words they have been "radicalised".


Any way – fumbling for coherence here. I don’t like the times we are living in, the rise of  romantic, irrational and ever more extreme nationalism and its increasing acceptance within the political mainstream I find deeply troubling. And I fear there’s more Thomas Mairs out there.


----------



## hot air baboon (Jun 22, 2016)

Kaka Tim said:


> Any way – fumbling for coherence here



...not at all..


----------



## LDC (Jun 22, 2016)

Am I the only one to find it a little odd that Leeds AFN is calling for a vigil for Jo Cox?

I understand the context of her killing, and that it's an attack on the left, rather than an attack on 'just an MP' but still...


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 22, 2016)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Am I the only one to find it a little odd that Leeds AFN is calling for a vigil for Jo Cox?
> 
> I understand the context of her killing, and that it's an attack on the left, rather than an attack on 'just an MP' but still...


What's wrong with a vigil for a victim of fascist violence?


----------



## LDC (Jun 22, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> What's wrong with a vigil for a victim of fascist violence?



Nothing's wrong as such. Like I said, I just find an anarchist group calling a vigil for an MP a little odd. She wasn't just a victim of fascist violence, but also someone that almost certainly would have happily fucked over anarchist struggles and imprisoned comrades given half a chance.

I wasn't saying it was wrong, just that it struck me as odd... but happy to be told I'm the odd one, not this event!


----------



## Geri (Jun 22, 2016)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Nothing's wrong as such. Like I said, I just find an anarchist group calling a vigil for an MP a little odd. She wasn't just a victim of fascist violence, but also someone that *almost certainly would have happily fucked over anarchist struggles and imprisoned comrades given half a chance.*


 
Oh. do fuck off with your disgusting smears.


----------



## LDC (Jun 22, 2016)

Geri said:


> Oh. do fuck off with your disgusting smears.



Thanks for your reasoned response.

It wasn't intended as a smear, I said almost certainly and do you not think that as a Labour MP that is quite likely to be a fair guess? She might well have been a lovely and kind hearted leftie but I suspect she was no comrade to most of us on here really.

Anyway, I'll leave it here as it's obviously not going to result in addressing what I said I felt - which was that it seems a bit odd _to me_ for anarchists to be calling for a vigil for an MP. I understand it's an attack on the left rather than the government, but still...

Maybe a quick look at her voting record might be enlightening as to her more complicated political position, rather than her simple angelic position that most of the UK left seem to be painting her as currently.


----------



## kebabking (Jun 22, 2016)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> ...which was that it seems a bit odd _to me_ for anarchists to be calling for a vigil for an MP. I understand it's an attack on the left rather than the government, but still...
> 
> Maybe a quick look at her voting record might be enlightening as to her more complicated political position, rather than her simple angelic position that most of the UK left seem to be painting her as currently.



surely the answer is a very simple one - if Leeds AFN is primarily an anti-fascist organisation, with all other considerations, including Anarchist political ones, as secondary to that, then deciding to hold a vigil for Jo Cox is an entirely reasonable one in the same way that it would be for any other non-fascist murdered by fascism.

if however Leeds AFN is in fact a primarily Anarchist political organisation, with all other considerations - including anti-fascist ones - as secondary to that, then holding a vigil for her might seem odd. of course, if thats true then the interpretation as to why they call themselves Leeds AFN rather than Leeds Anarchist Colloective might be somewhat less than charitable...


----------



## Kaka Tim (Jun 22, 2016)

Leeds AFN are primarily an anti-fascist organisation. There are anarchists involved in it, but the clue is in the word "network". I don't know loads about Jo Cox, but she was clearly not murdered because she disagreed with the core principles of anarchism and/or her lack of opposition to market liberalism- she was murdered because of her campaigning work for refugees.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 22, 2016)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Thanks for your reasoned response.
> 
> It wasn't intended as a smear, I said almost certainly and do you not think that as a Labour MP that is quite likely to be a fair guess? She might well have been a lovely and kind hearted leftie but I suspect she was no comrade to most of us on here really.
> 
> ...


She wasn't perfect. I share few of her beliefs. That matters little - I don't know benno ohnesorg's political views in detail, nor altab ali's nor Harry Stanley's nor mark duggan's nor Kevin gateley's nor Ian tomlinson's. They were killed by fascists or by the state and I honour their memory. Jo Cox didn't deserve to be slaughtered as she was so imo a vigil is justified. Let's not go down the road of she might have done this, let's not have a hierarchy of victims of fascism


----------



## Idris2002 (Jun 22, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> She wasn't perfect. I share few of her beliefs. That matters little - I don't know benno ohnesorg's political views in detail, nor altab ali's nor Harry Stanley's nor mark duggan's nor Kevin gateley's nor Ian tomlinson's. They were killed by fascists or by the state and I honour their memory. Jo Cox didn't deserve to be slaughtered as she was so imo a vigil is justified. Let's not go down the road of she might have done this, let's not have a hierarchy of victims of fascism


Spot on.


----------



## weltweit (Jun 22, 2016)

Yvette Cooper has now received twitter death threats against her family.

Yvette Cooper receives Twitter death threat against family members


----------



## existentialist (Jun 22, 2016)

weltweit said:


> Yvette Cooper has now received twitter death threats against her family.
> 
> Yvette Cooper receives Twitter death threat against family members


I get the impression that death threats on Twitter are fairly routine. But I would imagine that the threatener is going to be quite surprised by how seriously their threat gets taken this time around...


----------



## two sheds (Jun 22, 2016)

good


----------



## QOTH (Jun 22, 2016)

weltweit said:


> Yvette Cooper has now received twitter death threats against her family.
> 
> Yvette Cooper receives Twitter death threat against family members



How bad is it, post gamergate, that I read that tweet and thought 'That seems relatively tame, I've seen worse'. 

(Not worse as in a worst threat, but angrier, more specific, more graphic and generally more disturbing-sounding if that is possible). 

I'd kind of assumed that all female MPs (and probably a lot of male MPs too) were having to deal with this bullshit pretty much every day which is a sorry state of affairs.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 22, 2016)

cyril_smear said:


> Im sure there was one in pretty recent years involving a gangster.



That was "trial _in camera_", i.e. before officers of the court, but no public.


----------



## Streathamite (Jun 22, 2016)

andysays said:


> The whole reason we're having this referendum is to prop up Cameron's party's position, and Cameron's position within his party.


absolutely, but that's also why his Party doesn't have an official position. You ju st couldn't sell either position to enough people, they're too divided.


----------



## gawkrodger (Jun 22, 2016)

Not quite sure where else to put this. For a second I thought it was amusing satire on a fake UKIP site, but alas, it;s a serious article

On the assassination of Jo Cox MP - UKIP Daily | UKIP News | UKIP Debate


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 22, 2016)

gawkrodger said:


> Not quite sure where else to put this. For a second I thought it was amusing satire on a fake UKIP site, but alas, it;s a serious article
> 
> On the assassination of Jo Cox MP - UKIP Daily | UKIP News | UKIP Debate


This is jailed bomb hoaxer and paedo michael shrimpton then.


----------



## killer b (Jun 22, 2016)

The Jo Cox memorial event on trafalgar square today featured a performance by Lilly Allen, and a satellite link-up with Bono.

Sting was presumably unavailable.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 22, 2016)

That said, Tariq Ali has been throwing around stupid suggestions she was an Al Qaeda supporter (sourced partially from Nick Griffin). So it's not just those types.


----------



## teqniq (Jun 22, 2016)

Also the event was interrupted by

Pro-Brexit campaigners branded 'disgusting' for flying banner over Jo Cox's memorial


----------



## Obediah Marsh (Jun 22, 2016)

I stopped reading when it said the Germans killed Kennedy


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 22, 2016)

pentalcol009 said:


> <LL: Please don't quote spam>



Classy.


----------



## bluescreen (Jun 22, 2016)

pentalcol009 is that an ironic post modernist poem or is it just spam? I am glad to see they are packaged individually. Are they also dispatched under plain cover?


----------



## two sheds (Jun 22, 2016)

Obediah Marsh said:


> I stopped reading when it said the Germans killed Kennedy



I stopped at 'Packaged discretely'


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 22, 2016)

Is it 2007 again?


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 22, 2016)

pentalcol009 said:


> ...stain removers.


----------



## sealion (Jun 22, 2016)

pentalcol009 said:


> <LL: Please don't quote spam>


Any chance of a bit of tick? Im skint until friday.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Jun 22, 2016)

bluescreen said:


> pentalcol009 is that an ironic post modernist poem or is it just spam? I am glad to see they are packaged individually. Are they also dispatched under plain cover?


We've all accidentally posted on the wrong thread before...


----------



## teqniq (Jun 22, 2016)

pentalcol009 said:


> <LL: Please don't quote spam>


Classy indeed but i'm reasonably certain you won't be round long enough to appreciate that.


----------



## bluescreen (Jun 22, 2016)

Ah, we need a laugh don't we. It's fucking grim otherwise.


----------



## hot air baboon (Jun 22, 2016)

pentalcol009 said:


> 4 MMC Mephedrone Collectors



...never mind that ..who do you reckon was behind the whack-job on Jo Cox.....


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 22, 2016)

pentalcol009 said:


> okay can i have your email or contact number so that i can make you taste my stuff??


fuck off


----------



## bluescreen (Jun 22, 2016)

Ooh, a reaction. Is it a real person or a bot.  Let's poke it with a stick.

ETA I meant pentacol, not you, Orang Utan, obviously.

But it's gone now. Shame, I'd be interested to see what responses we could have elicited.


----------



## cyril_smear (Jun 22, 2016)

pentalcol009 said:


> Tested and approved by DEA



I thought the dea strongly disapproved of mephedrone


----------



## Dogsauce (Jun 22, 2016)

Very little scepticism in the comments, plus someone going off on 9/11 being a demolition job. Is UKIP really this much of a magnet for loonspuds?


----------



## bluescreen (Jun 22, 2016)

Obediah Marsh said:


> I stopped reading when it said the Germans killed Kennedy


 If you read on: 
_Gaitskell was assassinated, Iain McLeod was assassinated, John Smith was assassinated_ - wtf?





> That nice man Jimmy Goldsmith, Leader of the Referendum Party, was assassinated using weaponised pancreatic cancer, in 1997. I met Jimmy not long before he died. *I think he knew that he had been murdered*.



Box of frogs.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 22, 2016)

bluescreen said:


> If you read on:
> _Gaitskell was assassinated, Iain McLeod was assassinated, John Smith was assassinated_ - wtf?
> Box of frogs.


He means that he knew that the 'weaponised cancer' that was killing him was somehow given to him deliberately :eek'


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Jun 23, 2016)

Dogsauce said:


> Very little scepticism in the comments, plus someone going off on 9/11 being a demolition job. Is UKIP really this much of a magnet for loonspuds?



Yep.


----------



## likesfish (Jun 23, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> This is jailed bomb hoaxer and paedo michael shrimpton then.




Obviously he was framed by the abwher to discredit him sheeple


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jun 23, 2016)

Man obsessed about ‘German DVD’, you say? 

Ex-judge: ‘Secret service framed me over child porn’ - Bucks Herald


----------



## eoin_k (Jun 23, 2016)

> UKIP Daily is independent of UKIP, but the editorial staff are all members of the party and the site is written in a supportive spirit.


Is it wrong to be slightly disappointed that it isn't an official party organ?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 23, 2016)

Tbh most people kip daily


----------



## Geri (Jun 23, 2016)

Syria's White Helmets award Jo Cox with highest honour


----------



## pesh (Jun 23, 2016)

Portishead pay their respects


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 23, 2016)

pesh said:


> Portishead pay their respects



How odd.
How is that a tribute?


----------



## pesh (Jun 23, 2016)

quoting her at the end?


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 23, 2016)

Because at the end they added the hashtag and pr quote for yesterdays vigil. That's it.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 23, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Because at the end they added the hashtag and pr quote for yesterdays vigil. That's it.


fucksake. The song is from High Rise. Maybe the tower block, with its class divisions and failing infrastructure is supposed to represent the EU.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 23, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> fucksake. The song is from High Rise. Maybe the tower block, with its class divisions and failing infrastructure is supposed to represent the EU.


If it then it would represent a post-eu world in this usage.


----------



## Geri (Jun 23, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> fucksake. The song is from High Rise. Maybe the tower block, with its class divisions and failing infrastructure is supposed to represent the EU.


 
High Rise?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 23, 2016)

Geri said:


> High Rise?


a book by j.g. ballard and lately a film adaptation was released. not to be confused with the ruddy yurts album of the same title.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 23, 2016)

Geri said:


> High Rise?


I guessing OU means the recent film adaptation of the Ballard novel


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 23, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> I guessing OU means the recent film adaptation of the Ballard novel


do keep up  see post 1091


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 23, 2016)

Geri said:


> High Rise?


Portishead


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 23, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> do keep up  see post 1091


Slow internet down here PM, can't keep up with you northern hemispherians


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 23, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> Slow internet down here PM


(((redsquirrel)))


----------



## Coolfonz (Jun 23, 2016)

If it hasn't been mentioned...

Tory councillor wrote he donated “the steam off my p*ss” to Jo Cox memorial fund

Crackhead chat.


----------



## laptop (Jun 23, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> This is jailed bomb hoaxer and paedo michael shrimpton then.


Ace headline here:
Jail for pervert barrister who said nuclear bomb would blow up the Queen at the London Olympics - Bucks Herald


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 23, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> If it hasn't been mentioned...
> 
> Tory councillor wrote he donated “the steam off my p*ss” to Jo Cox memorial fund
> 
> Crackhead chat.


Only twice or thrice


----------



## mauvais (Jun 23, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> fucksake. The song is from High Rise


Well, that and ABBA, obviously.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 23, 2016)

mauvais said:


> Well, that and ABBA, obviously.


well, duur


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Aug 29, 2016)

So when does this guy get tried?


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Aug 29, 2016)

Nov 14th when last heard. 

Thomas Mair to go on trial in autumn accused of Jo Cox murder


----------



## gosub (Sep 19, 2016)

Jo Cox murder trial will not hear medical defence of Thomas Mair


----------



## bimble (Nov 16, 2016)

"The man accused of murdering the Labour MP Jo Cox threw his hands in the air and declared himself to be a “political activist” when approached by police "
be interesting to see how the trial ends. 
Jo Cox murder trial: accused told police he was 'political activist'


----------



## teqniq (Nov 16, 2016)

Even so, not been charged under terrorism legislation; what do legal people here think? Would it be because it would be more difficult to make any such charge stick or is it motivated by political sensibilities such as a reluctance to acknowledge that the far-right is perfectly capable of producing terrorists too?



> ..Mair, 53, an unemployed gardener from Birstall, West Yorkshire, is charged with the murder of Cox; possession of a firearm with intent to commit an offence; possession of a dagger; and grievous bodily harm to a passerby, Bernard Carter Kenny...


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 16, 2016)

teqniq said:


> Even so, not been charged under terrorism legislation; what do legal people here think? Would it be because it would be more difficult to make any such charge stick or is it motivated by political sensibilities such as a reluctance to acknowledge that the far-right is perfectly capable of producing terrorists too?


perhaps it's because murder carries a longer sentence than the alternatives


----------



## kebabking (Nov 16, 2016)

i would assume that its a mix of things - that terrorism could be more difficult to prove to conviction standard, that murder will do just fine given the sentence he'll get,  and that he might have liked to be prosecuted for terrorism because it would suit his view of himself, whereas muder just puts him in the same category as every other pathetic, small, worthless little creep...


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## gosub (Nov 16, 2016)

teqniq said:


> Even so, not been charged under terrorism legislation; what do legal people here think? Would it be because it would be more difficult to make any such charge stick or is it motivated by political sensibilities such as a reluctance to acknowledge that the far-right is perfectly capable of producing terrorists too?


that sawn off Lee Enfield came from somewhere


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## FridgeMagnet (Nov 16, 2016)

Didn't we have this before with the Lee Rigby murder? Iirc they weren't charged under any terrorism legislation either. There are already loads of laws regarding wounding and killing people and having weapons.


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## mauvais (Nov 16, 2016)

Show me terror-related killings that _weren't_ charged as murder.

Terror charges are typically for preparation, fomenting, failed plots etc.


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## two sheds (Nov 16, 2016)

mauvais said:


> Show me terror-related killings that _weren't_ charged as murder.
> 
> Terror charges are typically for preparation, fomenting, failed plots etc.



Conspiracy to murder as it used to be called (I think).


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## DaveCinzano (Nov 21, 2016)

I appear to share some of the reading tastes of _Zee Accused _












Also I stack my _emergency rations_ in much the same way 






Jo Cox murder suspect collected far-right books, court hears


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## friedaweed (Nov 21, 2016)

DaveCinzano said:


> I appear to share some of the reading tastes of _Zee Accused _
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The positioning of those bake bean tins suggests to me that you're not taking this seriously.  Move one of the front tins to the rear and move the salt and the sauce closer together. 

Composition is everything.


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## DotCommunist (Nov 21, 2016)

have you got a dodgy eagle as well?


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## DaveCinzano (Nov 21, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> have you got a dodgy eagle as well?


Mebbe


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## DaveCinzano (Nov 21, 2016)

friedaweed said:


> The positioning of those bake bean tins suggests to me that you're not taking this seriously.  Move one of the front tins to the rear and move the salt and the sauce closer together.


Clearly it's eastward expansionism


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## Bakunin (Nov 21, 2016)

DaveCinzano said:


> I appear to share some of the reading tastes of _Zee Accused _
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You should see the contents of my bookshelves.


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## DaveCinzano (Nov 21, 2016)

friedaweed said:


> The positioning of those bake bean tins suggests to me that you're not taking this seriously.  Move one of the front tins to the rear and move the salt and the sauce closer together.
> 
> Composition is everything.


Something about that cupboard shouts out EIN RICE! EIN FORK! EIN 'FURTER IN A TIN!


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## friedaweed (Nov 21, 2016)

DaveCinzano said:


> Something about that cupboard shouts out EIN RICE! EIN FORK! EIN 'FURTER IN A TIN!


It's not what I would call a balanced diet. I bet his farts stank 

He'll miss his blue ribbons in chokey


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## DotCommunist (Nov 21, 2016)

friedaweed said:


> It's not what I would call a balanced diet. I bet his farts stank
> 
> He'll miss his blue ribbons in chokey


theres a good selection of sweets and biscuits on Canteen lists these days frieda. Thats if you can hear to fill the form out over the sound of all that rioting


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## friedaweed (Nov 21, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> theres a good selection of sweets and biscuits on Canteen lists these days frieda. Thats if you can hear to fill the form out over the sound of all that rioting


I bet there's no Blue Ribbons. Only your Ma buys them and even then you're only allowed to take one from the tin. 

Do they still do Taxi biscuits.  We could only have one of them as well.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 21, 2016)

DaveCinzano said:


> I appear to share some of the reading tastes of _Zee Accused _
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sure many of us have thurlow's book on fascism in britain


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## weltweit (Nov 21, 2016)

I have Mein Kampf but never got round to reading it.
Various peeps have told me it is crap.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 21, 2016)

weltweit said:


> I have Mein Kampf but never got round to reading it.
> Various peeps have told me it is crap.


It is a poor read


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## DaveCinzano (Nov 21, 2016)

weltweit said:


> I have Mein Kampf but never got round to reading it.
> Various peeps have told me it is crap.


The bunker did it


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## DaveCinzano (Nov 21, 2016)

friedaweed said:


> I bet there's no Blue Ribbons. Only your Ma buys them and even then you're only allowed to take one from the tin.
> 
> Do they still do Taxi biscuits.  We could only have one of them as well.


He seems more a Club kinda chap. His politics means that he won't allow Um Bongo in his inner sanctum, though - and for some reason he hates juice


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## Wilf (Nov 21, 2016)

Every home should have a sugar bowl.


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## agricola (Nov 21, 2016)

weltweit said:


> I have Mein Kampf but never got round to reading it.
> Various peeps have told me it is crap.



Anyone who says that they have read it all should be treated with suspicion.


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## DotCommunist (Nov 21, 2016)

DaveCinzano said:


> He seems more a Club kinda chap. His politics means that he won't allow Um Bongo in his inner sanctum, though - and for some reason he hates juice




if you like a lot of chocolate on your biscuit, pay three quid to join a dismal reformist party (at best) and watch your chocolate slide out of view as the entrenched right wing of the the party eats all the chocolate


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## kebabking (Nov 23, 2016)

guilty on all counts, 12.30.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 23, 2016)

kebabking said:


> guilty on all counts, 12.30.


no surprise there then


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## kebabking (Nov 23, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> no surprise there then



no, i didn't quite fall off my chair.

whats the betting - 30 years minimum or no chance of release?


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## Pickman's model (Nov 23, 2016)

kebabking said:


> no, i didn't quite fall off my chair.
> 
> whats the betting - 30 years minimum or no chance of release?


no chance of release. if there's one thing the state dislikes more than cops getting killed, it's politicians getting killed. but 30 years minimum would be an effective full life tariff anyway.


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## kebabking (Nov 23, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> no chance of release. if there's one thing the state dislikes more than cops getting killed, it's politicians getting killed. but 30 years minimum would be an effective full life tariff anyway.



he got a whole life sentance - i assume the Judge didn't bother asking for sentancing reports...


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## Pickman's model (Nov 23, 2016)

kebabking said:


> he got a whole life sentance - i assume the Judge didn't bother asking for sentancing reports...


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## kebabking (Nov 23, 2016)

i wonder if defence counsel decided not to offer any evidence because the Judge threatened to prosecute them for contempt of court?


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## Orang Utan (Nov 23, 2016)

kebabking said:


> i wonder if defence counsel decided not to offer any evidence because the Judge threatened to prosecute them for contempt of court?


how did that happen?


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## kebabking (Nov 23, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> how did that happen?



it was a joke...


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## Orang Utan (Nov 23, 2016)

kebabking said:


> it was a joke...


well i don't get it. the judge didn't threaten to prosecute them then?


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## kebabking (Nov 23, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> well i don't get it. the judge didn't threaten to prosecute them then?



no he didn't. he didn't need to...


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## Orang Utan (Nov 23, 2016)

kebabking said:


> no he didn't. he didn't need to...


you've lost me


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## kebabking (Nov 23, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> you've lost me



the evidence against Mair was so overwhelming, so utterly incontrovertable, with no possible mitigation or justification, that to mount a defence against it would be waste the courts time for no possible benefit...

it was a joke.


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## Orang Utan (Nov 23, 2016)

kebabking said:


> the evidence against Mair was so overwhelming, so utterly incontrovertable, with no possible mitigation or justification, that to mount a defence against it would be waste the courts time for no possible benefit...
> 
> it was a joke.


don't give up the day job!


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## DaveCinzano (Nov 23, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> you've lost me


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Nov 23, 2016)

Whole life. 



Bahnhof Strasse said:


> There is just murder and only one sentence available for it too, life imprisonment. How long the minimum term you must serve before the parole board can consider releasing you under life licence is set by the judge and can range from zero days to whole life. There are guidelines, such as cop killer = 30 year min rec, a second separate murder = whole life. Would imagine as this was an assassination of an MP a whole life tariff may be imposed, or certainly nothing less than 40 years.


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## skyscraper101 (Nov 23, 2016)

kebabking said:


> the evidence against Mair was so overwhelming, so utterly incontrovertable, with no possible mitigation or justification, that to mount a defence against it would be waste the courts time for no possible benefit...
> 
> it was a joke.



Could've been amusing if he'd tried it on just for the lulz with the Shaggy defence. It wasn't me.


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## Orang Utan (Nov 23, 2016)

Lee Rigby's killers pleaded not guilty. I half expected Mair to do the same


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## Pickman's model (Nov 23, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> Lee Rigby's killers pleaded not guilty. I half expected Mair to do the same


have you been following the case with any sort of diligence?


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## Orang Utan (Nov 23, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> have you been following the case with any sort of diligence?


not at all


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## Dogsauce (Nov 23, 2016)

The BBC profile of Mair includes the following sentence:



> Mair was born in Scotland in 1963 to parents who had married after he was conceived.



One for the 'BBC going down the drain' thread. How many decades has it been since such a statement meant anything at all? What's the fucking relevance?


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## Pickman's model (Nov 23, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> not at all


i just wanted to confirm that. your post showed not the slightest familiarity with what's been going on in court.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 23, 2016)

kebabking said:


> it was a joke...


it's wicked to mock the afflicted.


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## Orang Utan (Nov 23, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> i just wanted to confirm that. your post showed not the slightest familiarity with what's been going on in court.


indeed, hence the questions/comments


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## Pickman's model (Nov 23, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> indeed, hence the questions/comments


yeh. questions. comments. good. why not spend a couple of minutes reading the thread to bring yourself up to speed on this matter and to prevent you looking like a lightweight gobshite.


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## Orang Utan (Nov 23, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh. questions. comments. good. why not spend a couple of minutes reading the thread to bring yourself up to speed on this matter and to prevent you looking like a lightweight gobshite.


CBA


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## Pickman's model (Nov 23, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> CBA


tldr


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## Orang Utan (Nov 23, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> if only that were true


no, i really can't be arsed. coming on here is a trial in itself, but reading long articles is too much to ask


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## Pickman's model (Nov 23, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> no, i really can't be arsed. coming on here is a trial in itself, but reading long articles is too much to ask


long story short: mair didn't enter a plea, and so was considered to have pleaded not guilty, the evidence was overwhelming and he's been sent down till the day he dies.


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## extra dry (Nov 23, 2016)

Obvs the guy is deeply mentally disturbed. best place for him would be a secure mental unit with access to treatment.


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## Plumdaff (Nov 23, 2016)

extra dry said:


> Obvs the guy is deeply mentally disturbed. best place for him would be a secure mental unit with access to treatment.



If he had been assessed as severely mentally ill his defence would have entered that as mitigation, they would have argued he was unfit to plead or manslaughter under diminished responsibility. The fact they didn't even attempt that means there can't can't have been even a debate. 

Being a murderous white supremacist wanker is not evidence of mental ill health.


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## JimW (Nov 23, 2016)

extra dry said:


> Obvs the guy is deeply mentally disturbed. best place for him would be a secure mental unit with access to treatment.


Not claiming to have read about him in any great depth but he seemed more like your bog standard right wing arsehole with some problems with depression. In this case don't think they've tried an unwell man incorrectly.


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## Orang Utan (Nov 23, 2016)

extra dry said:


> Obvs the guy is deeply mentally disturbed. best place for him would be a secure mental unit with access to treatment.


i hope you feel the same about Lee Rigby's killers


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## Geri (Nov 23, 2016)

The verdict was never in doubt and I am very pleased with the sentence. Let the worthless piece of shit die in prison.


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## Plumdaff (Nov 23, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> i hope you feel the same about Lee Rigby's killers



There's a lot more evidence than in this case that one of the Lee Rigby killers was severely mentally ill, even psychotic. But you can be psychotic and fit to plead. There is a difference between a health professional diagnosis or lay understanding of mental ill health and a legal judgment that mental ill health is a mitigating factor in a crime or fitness to plead. It's a case imhe of trying to fit the shade of grey of psychology into the black and white requirements of law.


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## Ranbay (Nov 23, 2016)

Might go check the Daily Hate comments out now it's all over.


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## kebabking (Nov 23, 2016)

extra dry said:


> Obvs the guy is deeply mentally disturbed. best place for him would be a secure mental unit with access to treatment.



Why obviously?

It's incredibly lazy thinking, not to mention self-seeking and self-defeating, to assume that people who think horrible things and do horrible things must be somehow unable to think rationally.

The end point of course is the assumption that if you think rationally, then you'll think like like us - the answered to that is one HR Clinton, sat unemployed and wondering if the message that if you don't think like us then you're stupid and crazy was such a good campaign message...


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## extra dry (Nov 23, 2016)

Plumdaff said:


> There's a lot more evidence than in this case that one of the Lee Rigby killers was severely mentally ill, even psychotic. But you can be psychotic and fit to plead. There is a difference between a health professional diagnosis or lay understanding of mental ill health and a legal judgment that mental ill health is a mitigating factor in a crime or fitness to plead. It's a case imhe of trying to fit the shade of grey of psychology into the black and white requirements of law.



 The defence team for this case (Mair) may have made an oversight.  They (criminal justice system) may look back in a few years time and claim underlieing or even disgised or misdiagnosed mental illness.  Well I don't thnk so but you never know.


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## gosub (Nov 23, 2016)

extra dry said:


> Obvs the guy is deeply mentally disturbed. best place for him would be a secure mental unit with access to treatment.




Were that true, it would have given the defense consul something to work with (poor sod), and  or been taken into account in sentencing. As nuts as what he did was,mental illness was not deemed a factor


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## gosub (Nov 23, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> i hope you feel the same about Lee Rigby's killers





Plumdaff said:


> There's a lot more evidence than in this case that one of the Lee Rigby killers was severely mentally ill, even psychotic. But you can be psychotic and fit to plead. There is a difference between a health professional diagnosis or lay understanding of mental ill health and a legal judgment that mental ill health is a mitigating factor in a crime or fitness to plead. It's a case imhe of trying to fit the shade of grey of psychology into the black and white requirements of law.



One maybe.  But the concept of a shared delusion would be a mental health minefield let alone a legal one.


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Nov 23, 2016)

"Freedom for Britain. Death to traitors" - the ugly truth is that Mair spoke for many. They would ideally have their noses rubbed in it, but the denialisms and distractions will more or less write themselves.

However, it would be a mistake to see his hatred as shaped by mainstream elements, being as he is hardcore nazi scum of the old school. The more unsettling truth is that mainstream rhetoric has come far more in alignment with his rather than the other way round.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Nov 23, 2016)

Like this bit:

Before sentencing, Mair asked to speak to the courtroom but the judge said he had already had an opportunity and declined.


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## DaveCinzano (Nov 23, 2016)

This was wryly amusing:



> Supporters of various far-right organisations in West Yorkshire deny, however, that Mair was ever part of the local scene, and anti-fascist campaign groups say he had not crossed their radar. “He’s not on any of our lists,” a spokesman for one such group said, before adding quickly: “Not that we keep any lists, you understand.”



The slow-burning hatred that led Thomas Mair to murder Jo Cox


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## DaveCinzano (Nov 23, 2016)

Ceci n'est pas une liste


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## High Voltage (Nov 23, 2016)

C'est une liste


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Nov 23, 2016)




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## taffboy gwyrdd (Nov 23, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Like this bit:
> 
> Before sentencing, Mair asked to speak to the courtroom but the judge said he had already had an opportunity and declined.



Excellent. I've had a busy week and not followed the trial closely. The verdict was sooner than I expected. I expected a load of nazi rallying-call invective at some point and am relieved it didn't happen. Now he wont be heard this side of the grave and it will be left to the likes of the Murdoch and Dacre to voice his rage through their rags.

RIP Jo. There is indeed more that unites than divides us, despite the best efforts of some.


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## brogdale (Nov 23, 2016)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Excellent. I've had a busy week and not followed the trial closely. The verdict was sooner than I expected. I expected a load of nazi rallying-call invective at some point and am relieved it didn't happen. Now he wont be heard this side of the grave. RIP Jo. There is indeed more that unites than divides us, despite the best efforts of some.


But let's not forget that, of his few reported utterances, the words "_*Britain First" *_were prominent.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 23, 2016)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> "Freedom for Britain. Death to traitors" - the ugly truth is that Mair spoke for many. They would ideally have their noses rubbed in it, but the denialisms and distractions will more or less write themselves.
> 
> However, it would be a mistake to see his hatred as shaped by mainstream elements, being as he is hardcore nazi scum of the old school. The more unsettling truth is that mainstream rhetoric has come far more in alignment with his rather than the other way round.





taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Excellent. I've had a busy week and not followed the trial closely. The verdict was sooner than I expected. I expected a load of nazi rallying-call invective at some point and am relieved it didn't happen. Now he wont be heard this side of the grave. RIP Jo. There is indeed more that unites than divides us, despite the best efforts of some.


so not been following the trial closely but you know he is 'hardcore nazi scum of the old school'. grand. even though there is evidence which contradicts you...


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Nov 23, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> so not been following the trial closely but you know he is 'hardcore nazi scum of the old school'. grand. even though there is evidence which contradicts you...



I don't really want this thread to be an interrogation / rebuttal swings & roundabout exercise, but I followed the case enough to know (from the day of the event) that his devotion to the ideology spanned a number of decades and (from the case) the types of materials at his flat. 

If these do not qualify in your mind as "hardcore nazi scum of the old school" then I'd be interested, perhaps at a geeky level, why this aint the case and the evidence you say contradicts me.

That said, perhaps his philosophies aint a carbon copy of Tyndall, The Reich itself or whoever, I really don't know but I suspect most people with a passing knowledge would find my description reasonable.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 24, 2016)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> That said, perhaps his philosophies aint a carbon copy of Tyndall, The Reich itself or whoever, I really don't know but I suspect most people with a passing knowledge would find my description reasonable.


I'm sure they would. but what's the fucking use of that?


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## Pickman's model (Nov 24, 2016)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> I don't really want this thread to be an interrogation / rebuttal swings & roundabout exercise, but I followed the case enough to know (from the day of the event) that his devotion to the ideology spanned a number of decades and (from the case) the types of materials at his flat.


go on then, tell us how "from the day of the event" you know that "his devotion to the ideology" (THE ideology? what ideology would that be then?) "spanned a number of decades"? and perhaps you could elaborate on how his possession of thurlow's history of fascism in britain and a book by arthur kemp makes him a hardcore nazi - i know i've a book by arthur kemp, the same book by thurlow, and a couple of score books about the third reich, fascism in britain and elsewhere - not to mention a copy of lost lives. if you're going by the books probably a couple of dozen people on here have a range of similar titles on their shelves. are they all devoted to the same ideology?



> If these do not qualify in your mind as "hardcore nazi scum of the old school" then I'd be interested, perhaps at a geeky level, why this aint the case and the evidence you say contradicts me.


an interest in the third reich does not make someone a hardcore nazi of the old school. a hardcore nazi of the old school would be someone like ian stuart or colin jordan. people who have made their beliefs public. people who have been involved with er nazi organisations. people who have actually espoused national socialism. as it is, "from the day of the event" it seemed more likely that he was exercised by britain first than the nsdap - the nsdap as i hope i need not remind you more interested in its later days in britain second than britain first. do i think mair a fascist? yes. but a nazi? not sure you've made the case for that.


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## Artaxerxes (Nov 24, 2016)

Daily Mail excels itself again.


----------



## two sheds (Nov 24, 2016)

Artaxerxes said:


> Daily Mail excels itself again.



No I think that's fair - he probably read that he was going to lose his house to an immigrant family in the Daily Mail.


----------



## Wilf (Nov 24, 2016)

Artaxerxes said:


> Daily Mail excels itself again.


If that was true, I wonder if the Mail would feel any responsibility in ramping up those fears?


----------



## Wilf (Nov 24, 2016)

two sheds said:


> No I think that's fair - he probably read that he was going to lose his house to an immigrant family in the Daily Mail.


Curses!


----------



## Wilf (Nov 24, 2016)

Immigration 'causing housing crisis' | Daily Mail Online
Revealed: How 500,000 immigrants have been given social housing in last decade as number of families on waiting list hits record high | Daily Mail Online
10,000 council houses given to immigrants in a year | Daily Mail Online
Migrants given one in 15 new council houses | Daily Mail Online


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## SpookyFrank (Nov 24, 2016)

two sheds said:


> No I think that's fair - he probably read that he was going to lose his house to an immigrant family in the Daily Mail.



Well he's guaranteed to have a roof over his head for a good long while now so I'm sure that's a weight off his mind.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 24, 2016)

Wilf said:


> If that was true, I wonder if the Mail would feel any responsibility in ramping up those fears?



They don't strike me as a bunch of people weighed down by feelings of civic responsibility tbh.


----------



## two sheds (Nov 24, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> They don't strike me as a bunch of people weighed down by feelings of civic responsibility tbh.



You take that back  they are hugely weighed down by feelings of other peoples' civic responsibility.


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## DotCommunist (Nov 24, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> They don't strike me as a bunch of people weighed down by feelings of civic responsibility tbh.


remember that time a man burned his own house down with all his kids in it and the first thing the mail highlighted was that the man was on benefits? That was a corker


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## SpookyFrank (Nov 24, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> remember that time a man burned his own house down with all his kids in it and the first thing the mail highlighted was that the man was on benefits? That was a corker



It's important to find a way to make the guy look bad I guess.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Nov 24, 2016)

High Voltage said:


> C'est une liste



_That's_ not a list


----------



## Idris2002 (Nov 25, 2016)




----------



## gosub (Nov 25, 2016)

She has also written an article explaining why for her online rag.  I won't link to it, its bollocks.


----------

