# Best small system camera for ~£400 with a fast prime lens?



## George & Bill (Mar 9, 2013)

I have quite a good camcorder sitting around gathering dust (I never used it much, and it's now more or less officially redundant since I got a DSLR that shoots video), which cursory research suggests will fetch around £400 on eBay.

A much more useful alternative would be something pocket-sized or not much bigger that will take a nice fast prime lens and also shoot half-decent video.

As a bit of background, I make most of my living taking pictures, and my main camera is a D800, so I'm comfortable with manual controls etc, but also not necessarily looking for something that can do everything, because it obviously won't be used for my work, more for street photography in my spare time.

I am used to the relatively glacial pace at which pro equipment develops, and trying to keep up with the developments in m4/3 etc makes my head spin!

Any help much appreciated.


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## starfish2000 (Mar 9, 2013)

What about those Fuji x100 rangefinders? Im thinking of one myself at the moment.

Its a f2 23mm lens, which is like a 35mm I think, and handle beautifully. i was having a play with one today in John Lewis, its a fixed lens but just move closer.


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## George & Bill (Mar 9, 2013)

Looks wonderful and was very well-received - how does it fair against the newer/cheaper Lumix GX1, say?

I should add that I don't want to add significantly to the proceeds of the camcorder sale, so budget is less than £500.


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## starfish2000 (Mar 9, 2013)

Well John Lewis were doing it for about £569, it reminded me of the Konica Hexar, the original one, the viewfinder has a lot of busy detail in it but I believe you can simplify it to your tastes.

Id check one out deffo. a friend has an older Lumix and thats very good, but somehow the Fuji felt more classic in the hand


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## George & Bill (Mar 9, 2013)

The optical viewfinder is the key appeal to me - an electronic viewfinder just doesn't seem right, somehow...


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## editor (Mar 10, 2013)

If you're going for an optical viewfinder that's going to seriously limit your choices in that price range.


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## George & Bill (Mar 10, 2013)

Yes beginning to realise that - perhaps I just need to get my head around the electronic viewfinder thing.

Also realise that I'm not necessarily sure it needs to be a system camera - as long as it has a large sensor, it could come with a fixed, fast prime lens...


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## editor (Mar 10, 2013)

If you can stretch your budget a bit over £400, the Sony RX100 is a truly stunning camera. 
http://www.procamerashop.co.uk/sony-cyber-shot-rx100-digital-camera-5613.html


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## wiskey (Mar 10, 2013)

editor said:


> If you can stretch your budget a bit over £400, the Sony RX100 is a truly stunning camera.
> http://www.procamerashop.co.uk/sony-cyber-shot-rx100-digital-camera-5613.html


 
sorry to sneak into your thread joe - but I'm looking to spend about £400 upgrading my Canon G10 (which I've destroyed). Ed do you think this would be a reasonable replacement? looking at those specs it looks good and like it does enough for me (who just likes taking pics and is in no way a photographer). Anything else similar for comparison.

ETA: I've been looking at the lumix GX1 and the Olympus EPL5


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## editor (Mar 10, 2013)

The RX100 is the compact I'd buy right now, but if you're looking for a more versatile system, then the Micro Four Thirds cameras are definitely worth a look. 

There's loads of other alternatives too, so you really need to post up a list of your priorities and needs (e.g. size/zoom/low light/sports/interchangeable lenses etc etc).


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## George & Bill (Mar 10, 2013)

editor said:


> The RX100 is the compact I'd buy right now, but if you're looking for a more versatile system, then the Micro Four Thirds cameras are definitely worth a look.
> 
> There's loads of other alternatives too, so you really need to post up a list of your priorities and needs (e.g. size/zoom/low light/sports/interchangeable lenses etc etc).


 
Yes sorry I am being quite vague!

I did mention I want a (fast) prime lens though, so the RX100 is out. It would also be great to have a mic input, but sadly this seems pretty much impossible.

Other than that, I'd say, probably m4/3 or aps-c sensor, as many physical controls as possible, good viewfinder even if it has to be electronic. Basically, as similar in output and operation as a DSLR as possible - obviously I realise it wont be that near at all, but you get what I mean. A minimum of menus, touch-screens, etc.

I've also been looking at the GX1, Olympus Pen but unsure what one, Samsung NX210 and NX1000 - the £400 budget is a guide, not an absolute figures.


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## dweller (Mar 12, 2013)

You could get a used Lumix G2 body for £170.
Then either a used panasonic 20mm 1.7 for £220 (bit noisy focus for video - keep it in manual)
or olympus 45mm 1.8 new £220 used £175 though this would be quite a telephoto portrait lens (90mm 35mm equivalent)
you could get a panasonic 14mm 2.5 £125 new on ebay for wider angle (silent focus unlike 20mm 1.7) to go with the 45mm
G2 = not full HD video but still nice 720p
Mono built in mic but stereo mic input is there.
The G2 body has a fair few physical controls that were removed from the subsequent G3 and it feels good in the hand.
A GH2 would provide better video/stills but body costs £650.

Edit to add - not really pocketsized.
But with 20mm or 14mm pancake can go in big coat/jacket pocket no probs.


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## weltweit (Mar 12, 2013)

slowjoe said:


> .........
> Basically, as similar in output and operation as a DSLR as possible - obviously I realise it wont be that near at all, but you get what I mean. A minimum of menus, touch-screens, etc. ........


Have you looked at some of the FujiFilm prosumer zooms, they give pretty good image quality but have a fixed zoom lens.
More here: http://forums.dpreview.com/products/Fujifilm/cameras


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## George & Bill (Mar 12, 2013)

dweller said:


> You could get a used Lumix G2 body for £170.
> Then either a used panasonic 20mm 1.7 for £220 (bit noisy focus for video - keep it in manual)
> or olympus 45mm 1.8 new £220 used £175 though this would be quite a telephoto portrait lens (90mm 35mm equivalent)
> you could get a panasonic 14mm 2.5 £125 new on ebay for wider angle (silent focus unlike 20mm 1.7) to go with the 45mm
> ...



It's really a chunkier camera than I'm after unfortunately. Good input on the lenses though, I wasn't aware of the things you mention about focusing noise issues. Although I'd probably focus manually for video.

I've seen Wex have the GX1 in a kit with 14-40-something lens and viewfinder for £500 - I'm tempted by that, and to then sell the zoom and add a bit to get the 20mm pancake, which would be close to ideal for what I'm after.


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## George & Bill (Mar 12, 2013)

weltweit said:


> Have you looked at some of the FujiFilm prosumer zooms, they give pretty good image quality but have a fixed zoom lens.
> More here: http://forums.dpreview.com/products/Fujifilm/cameras



They look good but I'm really after something with a prime lens, both for speed, shallower depth of field, and because O like the idea of it being a bit back-to-basics...


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## FridgeMagnet (Mar 24, 2013)

I can recommend the Panasonic 20/1.7 and 14/2.5 primes - they're both top street lenses, though the 14 is quite wide at 28mm equivalent (otoh some people like that). The 20/1.7 does have a noticeable noise and vibration when focusing - well, noticeable when it's quiet - whereas the 14/2.5 is silent and also very, very quick.

I have a G2 body that I use with the 20/1.7 and it's not as big as it looks. I had it on a photo walk recently and compared to other people's DSLRs it looked like a toy. The EVF on it is also fine when it's relatively bright... not amazing in the dark but usable. On the other hand it's certainly not a pocket camera. I also have a GF2 body which is much more compact but with the same sensor, and that works out to be coat/jacket pocket sized, but has no EVF - there's an overpriced accessory one you can get but I haven't bothered. (I actually got an optical one which plugs into the accessory shoe, but only for the 14/2.5.)


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## editor (Mar 24, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I can recommend the Panasonic 20/1.7 and 14/2.5 primes - they're both top street lenses, though the 14 is quite wide at 28mm equivalent (otoh some people like that). The 20/1.7 does have a noticeable noise and vibration when focusing - well, noticeable when it's quiet - whereas the 14/2.5 is silent and also very, very quick.


I have them both but I'm saving up for the Olympus 12mm f2 and 17mm f1.8 lens to replace them. I *love* the fact that you can switch them to manual focusing by pulling back the ring, and use the depth of field scale for real street shooting.

The Olympus 45mm f1.8 is a phenomenal lens.


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## George & Bill (Mar 24, 2013)

editor said:


> I have them both but I'm saving up for the Olympus 12mm f2 and 17mm f1.8 lens to replace them. I *love* the fact that you can switch them to manual focusing by pulling back the ring, and use the depth of field scale for real street shooting.
> 
> The Olympus 45mm f1.8 is a phenomenal lens.



Those lenses look delicious, although one does have to wonder over the price, and the ~£50 Olympus want for a lens hood...

And not technically relevant to this thread since they cost over £400 each!


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## George & Bill (Mar 24, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I can recommend the Panasonic 20/1.7 and 14/2.5 primes - they're both top street lenses, though the 14 is quite wide at 28mm equivalent (otoh some people like that). The 20/1.7 does have a noticeable noise and vibration when focusing - well, noticeable when it's quiet - whereas the 14/2.5 is silent and also very, very quick.
> 
> I have a G2 body that I use with the 20/1.7 and it's not as big as it looks. I had it on a photo walk recently and compared to other people's DSLRs it looked like a toy. The EVF on it is also fine when it's relatively bright... not amazing in the dark but usable. On the other hand it's certainly not a pocket camera. I also have a GF2 body which is much more compact but with the same sensor, and that works out to be coat/jacket pocket sized, but has no EVF - there's an overpriced accessory one you can get but I haven't bothered. (I actually got an optical one which plugs into the accessory shoe, but only for the 14/2.5.)



Thanks, good feedback on those lenses...


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## editor (Mar 24, 2013)

slowjoe said:


> Those lenses look delicious, although one does have to wonder over the price, and the ~£50 Olympus want for a lens hood...
> 
> And not technically relevant to this thread since they cost over £400 each!


 Apologies for the diversion but I have been learning the difference a really good lens makes so maybe it is worth mulling over if you suddenly come across a wad of spare cash


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## George & Bill (Mar 24, 2013)

editor said:


> Apologies for the diversion but I have been learning the difference a really good lens makes so maybe it is worth mulling over if you suddenly come across a wad of spare cash



That's OK, Completely agree about the difference it makes - but I get the impression that Olympus are rally blazing a trail here with the quality of m/43 gear, and that once some real competition emerges, prices will come down a bit...


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## editor (Mar 24, 2013)

I'm not sure the prices will ever come down much for really high quality lenses.


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## FridgeMagnet (Mar 24, 2013)

Yeah, the lenses don't seem to be getting cheaper - some of the prices for the new stuff are eye watering - but the bodies are (or at least there are now bodies from a generation or two ago at great prices that are really good).

I also get good performance from adapters + old manual SLR glass. The effective focal length doubles but you can end up with a fast sharp long lens for 50 quid or less.


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## editor (Mar 24, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I also get good performance from adapters + old manual SLR glass. The effective focal length doubles but you can end up with a fast sharp long lens for 50 quid or less.


You can get some great results using an adapter - the only downsides are that you lose autofocus and that the lenses end up a fair bit chunkier than native m43 ones.


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## George & Bill (Mar 24, 2013)

Really high-quality glass can be had very or relatively cheaply, for example in the case of Nikon MF lenses, or older screw-focus AF lenses, that are almost as good optically as current models, but sell for much less on account of advances in focusing technology. Obviously, that all happened over the course of a couple of decades, but with the pace things are moving now I wouldn't be surprised if in a couple of years time those pricey Olympus M4/3 lenses were superseded by something optically much the same but slightly improved in some fairly peripheral respect, knocking a fair bit off their value.

Obviously this is pure speculation, but to me it just doesn't feel like a mature market yet, rather one that is still subject to an 'early adopter markup'.


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## George & Bill (Mar 24, 2013)

As you may judge, I'm kind of talking myself out of the whole thought that started this thread. I think the M4/3 system looks great, and if it works as your primary system then there's nothing wrong with buying the kit you need now even if that does mean taking a bit of a hit on its later value (I should know about this having bought a D800 right after it came out last year...). But since this would be a second system for me, I'm not sure it feels like the right time to go into something that's still moving so fast...


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## FridgeMagnet (Mar 24, 2013)

I get the feeling that with some of the high quality stuff like the OM-D coming out that has had pros saying "oh yeah this is great", it's now a market where manufacturers feel they can put out lenses at this price. I don't expect that high end to come down in price much. But there are third parties coming into this format too now, and it's got a reputation for primes, so I would guess that there will be some good cheaper primes coming out. I want a nice fast 50mm equivalent which doesnt break the bank personally.


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## editor (Mar 24, 2013)

I'm really impressed with the quality of m43. The OM-D is hands down the best camera I've ever owed, and its low light abilities are nothing short of amazing. With a manual focused prime lens it's a fabulous street shooter, but not so good if you're into capturing big sporting events.


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## George & Bill (Mar 24, 2013)

I agree that it's here to stay - just think it'll see lots of rapid development over the next couple of years, that's all.


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## Ted Striker (Mar 26, 2013)

Not sure if it's worth starting a new thread, as my requirements are pretty close to this one...

I'm not a camera nerd, though love what I can get out of my Nikon D3100...Though it's too bulky to take on my bike...Are there any small and cheap (as much as possible) cameras that would suit as a decent mobile use camera?

I had a reasonably specced point-and-shoot though the difference in picture quality and (tbh) more importantly the delay in pressing the button and shot being taken means I'll probably never go back to them.

I'd had a look at the Samsung NX1000 cameras, would this suit my needs? Is it a prime lens?!


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## editor (Mar 26, 2013)

The Samsung NX1000 is £600! If you're spending that kind of money there's a load of other options to consider.


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## George & Bill (Mar 26, 2013)

I thought the NX1000 looked rather good - it's an APS-C (so, big-sensor) interchangeable lens system, presumably with at least one zoom and one prime...

Only thing with these smaller systems is you never really know if they'll last - m4/3 may (or may not) be set to lose some value, but at least they probably won't become obsolete...


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## Ted Striker (Mar 26, 2013)

£292  http://www.amazon.co.uk/Samsung-NX1000-Digital-Compact-System/dp/B007WR32G8

I feel like apologising as the previous post was epicly lazy, only I do really know FA about cameras. I don't even know what is it about the D3100 that are not present on point-and-clicks that make the shots good that could be replicated in a small body - or even if the Samsung is it!


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## George & Bill (Mar 26, 2013)

editor said:


> The Samsung NX1000 is £600! If you're spending that kind of money there's a load of other options to consider.



In practice it's not:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B007WR32...de=asn&creative=22242&creativeASIN=B007WR32HW

Edit: Snap


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## editor (Mar 26, 2013)

slowjoe said:


> In practice it's not:
> 
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B007WR32...de=asn&creative=22242&creativeASIN=B007WR32HW


Ah, OK. I'm always unsettled by cameras with such a huge disparity between RRP and actual street price.


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## Ted Striker (Mar 26, 2013)

What about this?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Olympus-Pen-E-P1-Thirds-Digital/dp/B002CGS52K/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top

This doesn't have a viewfinder, does that mean there will be a pause between click and shutter/shot being taken (like there is on a PaS / D3100 in non-viewfinder mode) [/not even trying to not sound stupid]?


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## editor (Mar 26, 2013)

Ted Striker said:


> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Olympus-Pen-E-P1-Thirds-Digital/dp/B002CGS52K/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top
> 
> This doesn't have a viewfinder, does that mean there will be a pause between click and shutter/shot being taken (like there is on a PaS / D3100 in non-viewfinder mode) [/not even trying to not sound stupid]?


Most decent compact cameras have virtually zero shutter lag these days.


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## Ted Striker (Mar 28, 2013)

Ended up going for the GX-1

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Panasonic-D...2?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1364465211&sr=1-2 (Though on ebay for £350 from Hong Kong)

On most of the cameras the space saving of the body was negated by the lens if you wanted anything other than a sub 20mm, and I like the versatility of the zoom. Plus I live for things that fold/compact


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## editor (Mar 28, 2013)

The GX1 is an excellent camera.


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## Ted Striker (Mar 28, 2013)

Cool, and thanks for your help


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## FridgeMagnet (Mar 28, 2013)

Yeah, I would have got the GX1 when I was looking last year - it ticked all my boxes, it was just pricey. In the end I got the GF2 because it was on sale, which has a similar form factor but not as many manual controls and the sensor's not quite as good.


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## editor (Mar 28, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Yeah, I would have got the GX1 when I was looking last year - it ticked all my boxes, it was just pricey. In the end I got the GF2 because it was on sale, which has a similar form factor but not as many manual controls and the sensor's not quite as good.


The only thing I don't like is the lack of built in stabilisation.


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