# The Proper World Cup 2011 - Egg-chasing in the Antipodes



## mattie (Jul 14, 2011)

Right, it kicks off pretty soon, so a good time to start a thread if no-one else can be arsed.

For those who don't know, the 7th Rugby World cup will take place in a sadly damaged NZ, with the home country favourites for the trophy.


I'm pretty sure NZ will win it, I just hope someone gets them to spit the dummy over the haka.

I've got a ticket for England's warm-up with Wales at HQ, which I'll miss most of in a drunken haze but should be good for a laugh.  Even if Andy Powell isn't playing.


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## bendeus (Jul 14, 2011)

I'm not going to visit this thread very often


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## bendeus (Jul 14, 2011)

mattie said:


> I've got a ticket for England's warm-up with Wales at HQ, which I'll miss most of in a drunken haze but should be good for a laugh. * Even if Andy Powell isn't playing.*


 
Ah mate, you won't even miss Mongo when you've got Huw Bennett's lineout throwing, our entire backline except for Shane, and the 'tactics' of Stan Laurel to keep you in the Lulz.


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## flypanam (Jul 15, 2011)

The warm up games we have are against France, Scotland and England. Not going to be much good with the Saffa, Aussies and Kiwi coming straight out of a Tri-Nations campaign. Quarter final exit here we come.

Anyway my hopes for the WC:

1. Ireland win the whole thing.
2. Ireland beat Australi in the group stages.
3. Declan Kidney starts talking English.
4. Samoa do one on the Saffa. I remember 2007 those two meeting in group stages, the samoans left the arms at bay and went for the kill. The Gavin Williams try is one of my all time favorites.
5. NZ to choke because it was so funny last time. Fucking very bad losers (the fans).


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## bendeus (Jul 15, 2011)

flypanam said:


> Anyway my hopes for the WC:
> 
> 1. Ireland win the whole thing.



Best chance of any of the NH nations, IMO, but you still haven't got a scrum to speak of - a lot will depend on the reffing.



> 2. Ireland beat Australi in the group stages.



Aus looking very good and will be a real handful in the SH. Don't think you've got enough to do them.



> 3. Declan Kidney starts talking English.



Far funnier in Declonian, IMO.



> 4. Samoa do one on the Saffa. I remember 2007 those two meeting in group stages, the samoans left the arms at bay and went for the kill. The Gavin Williams try is one of my all time favorites.



Yes



> 5. NZ to choke because it was so funny last time. Fucking very bad losers (the fans).



Yes


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## flypanam (Jul 15, 2011)

bendeus said:


> a lot will depend on the reffing.



Everytime you post that or varient of. IT MAKES ME SMILE


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## flypanam (Jul 15, 2011)

You are right though. I don't think we have a chance. Australia to win it.


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## bendeus (Jul 15, 2011)

flypanam said:


> Everytime you post that or varient of. IT MAKES ME SMILE


 
 I aim for consistency, Flypanam old bean.

I look forward to seeing the titans of the Aus and Irish front rows coming together like runaway steam trains:







More collapses than a nonagenarian mosh pit


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## The Boy (Jul 15, 2011)

France to beat NZ then fail to qualify from their group.  Either that or lose to NZ then exit in the quarters.


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## mattie (Jul 15, 2011)

Excellent.

http://www.espnscrum.com/england/rugby/story/143964.html

I thought this might be a pisstake, but I hope not.


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## mattie (Jul 15, 2011)

Following on:



> The New Zealand Rugby Union (NZRU) has no qualms with England wearing the strip, which will be unveiled in August and costs around £90.



Is it silk lined or summat?  90 bones?


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## Belushi (Jul 15, 2011)

Can't wait; I'll inevitable be disappointed when Wales fail to shine but hopefully Australia will do me proud.

And of course I'm looking forward to that moment when the All Blacks choke.


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## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jul 15, 2011)

mattie said:


> Following on:
> 
> 
> 
> Is it silk lined or summat?  90 bones?



England rugby fans can afford it on the whole, can they not?


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## mattie (Jul 16, 2011)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> England rugby fans can afford it on the whole, can they not?



I'm not sure that really addresses the point.

And I suspect many won't be able to afford it.


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## bendeus (Jul 16, 2011)

mattie said:


> I'm not sure that really addresses the point.
> *
> And I suspect many won't be able to afford it*.


 
Ah, c'mon. They'll have to extend the first class section on the flights to accommodate all the braying Nigels.






Mattie, are *you* a braying Nigel?


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## mattie (Jul 16, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Ah, c'mon. They'll have to extend the first class section on the flights to accommodate all the braying Nigels.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Not everyone's a quins fan.

Seriously, 90 quid for a bit of polyester.  90 fucking sheets.


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## bendeus (Jul 17, 2011)

mattie said:


> Not everyone's a quins fan.


 
No. Some of us follow altogether more proletarian teams. Like Bath

90 squids, mind. That would impact upon the Monday-to-Wednesday Port budget like nothing else.


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## mattie (Jul 17, 2011)

bendeus said:


> No. Some of us follow altogether more proletarian teams. Like Bath
> 
> 90 squids, mind. That would impact upon the Monday-to-Wednesday Port budget like nothing else.


 
If the Rec has a section for landed gentry, it sure ain't the terraces.

There's the key problem that the tarquins who would/could spend 90 sheets on a polyester shirt won't as it'll clash with the herringbone.

As an aside, I find it a bit ironic that rugby is seen as the posh sport in the region, when I live down the road from Badminton.


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## flypanam (Jul 18, 2011)

I might have to revise my idea that Australia will win the thing after the beating Samoa dished out. Go Samoa.


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## mattie (Jul 18, 2011)

flypanam said:


> I might have to revise my idea that Australia will win the thing after the beating Samoa dished out. Go Samoa.


 
I cn't see past NZ for the trophy, but better for Oz to get warm-up games wrong than the real thing.


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## Teaboy (Jul 18, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Ah, c'mon. They'll have to extend the first class section on the flights to accommodate all the braying Nigels.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

You've clearly never been to Kingsholm!


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## sleaterkinney (Jul 18, 2011)

mattie said:


> Excellent.
> 
> http://www.espnscrum.com/england/rugby/story/143964.html
> 
> I thought this might be a pisstake, but I hope not.


 It's so some of the players (hartley, hape etc) don't get confused.


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## bendeus (Jul 19, 2011)

Teaboy said:


> You've clearly never been to Kingsholm!


 
Bloody have! In the shed, too


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## bendeus (Jul 19, 2011)

flypanam said:


> I might have to revise my idea that Australia will win the thing after the beating Samoa dished out. Go Samoa.


 
*trembles*


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## mattie (Jul 19, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Bloody have! In the shed, too


 
Brave man.  Whatever it is, apparently it's catching.


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## mattie (Jul 20, 2011)

sleaterkinney said:


> It's so some of the players (hartley, hape etc) don't get confused.


 
I have my own theory.  The England hierarchy have looked long and hard into the optimal colour for a rugby kit.

Although green shirts camouflage props burying themselves into the grass, painful experience tells us that refs cannot see black shirts in offside positions, laying on the ball or blocking drift defenders.


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## gabi (Jul 20, 2011)

that shirt thing is fucking hilarious. our prime minister even found time to wade into it. embarrassing.


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## mattie (Jul 20, 2011)

gabi said:


> that shirt thing is fucking hilarious. our prime minister even found time to wade into it. embarrassing.


 
To make it even sillier, the All Black away shirt is white.


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## gabi (Jul 20, 2011)

lulz.. i thought it was silver tho?


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## mattie (Jul 20, 2011)

gabi said:


> lulz.. i thought it was silver tho?


 
They changed back to white a few years back, as far as I recall.


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## flypanam (Jul 21, 2011)

mattie said:


> I have my own theory.  The England hierarchy have looked long and hard into the optimal colour for a rugby kit.
> 
> Although green shirts camouflage props burying themselves into the grass, painful experience tells us that refs cannot see black shirts in offside positions, laying on the ball or blocking drift defenders.


 


I thought that was the same with England having white. Stainless reputations. Innocence thy name is England. Seriously though all the playing around with kit is a wankers trick for footballers. Life was simpler with the cotton loose fit jerseys. Bring em back!


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## gabi (Jul 21, 2011)

black is by far the coolest 'colour' so im not surprised the england kit designers have realised that. its only an historical accident that the kiwis claimed it.


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## flypanam (Jul 21, 2011)

Misprint? All backs became All Blacks?


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## bendeus (Jul 21, 2011)

gabi said:


> black is by far the coolest 'colour' so im not surprised the england kit designers have realised that. its only an historical accident that the kiwis claimed it.


 
My, my. Making your biannual trip to a rugby thread, Gabi?


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## gabi (Jul 21, 2011)

why are u such a dick bendeus? just out of interest?


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## bendeus (Jul 21, 2011)

gabi said:


> why are u such a dick bendeus? just out of interest?


 
Dunno. Some people just bring it out in me I guess


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## Teaboy (Jul 21, 2011)

England's away strip never gets used, how many teams play in white apart from England?  One I think.  Its just a money making blag.

Anyway for the world cup I can't really see past NZ, I'd be amazed if they don't win it this year.  I'd be happy with last 4 for England.


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## gabi (Jul 21, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Dunno. Some people just bring it out in me I guess


 
by 'some people' i take it you mean new zealanders? tis just a bit weird, thats all


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## bendeus (Jul 21, 2011)

gabi said:


> by 'some people' i take it you mean new zealanders? tis just a bit weird, thats all


 
Nah. Just you, Gabi.


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## gabi (Jul 21, 2011)

So your constant whinging about the All Blacks is just a coincidence then? 

There's chips on shoulders and then there's fucking mountains.


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## bendeus (Jul 21, 2011)

If you actually visited the rugby threads more than once a year you'd notice that I whinge equally about almost everyone


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## gabi (Jul 21, 2011)

Rugby's not really my sport, dont mind admitting that. Just a passing interest in it, had to growing up in NZ. 

that's why im not here year-round like your good self. i am looking forward to the WC tho.


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## bendeus (Jul 21, 2011)

Aye. We established about two years ago that you don't like rugby much, which would explain why you don't appear to know much about it (which, incidentally, is fine).

It's more the showing up for a week a year to crow about your nation's superiority (and everyone else's inferiority) in a sport that you appear to have some distaste for that baffles me.


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## flypanam (Jul 21, 2011)

bendeus said:


> If you actually visited the rugby threads more than once a year you'd notice that I whinge equally about almost everyone



Not quite true my friend. You seem to have an inordinate amount of distaste for Wales for some reason.

eta: I actually think the All Blacks are well respected on these threads. Their fans too. But in all cases those who believe they have a natural right get ripped for being eggs.


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## bendeus (Jul 21, 2011)

flypanam said:


> Not quite true my friend. You seem to have an inordinate amount of distatse for Wales for some reason.


 
Aye. Those useless fuckers can go hang


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## flypanam (Jul 21, 2011)

I don't think they would be actually capable of doing that themselves.


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## gabi (Jul 21, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Aye. We established about two years ago that you don't like rugby much, which would explain why you don't appear to know much about it (which, incidentally, is fine).
> 
> It's more the showing up for a week a year to crow about your nation's superiority (and everyone else's inferiority) in a sport that you appear to have some distaste for that baffles me.



Um.. when do i do that?? I hate the all blacks, and in fact, I have a healthy dislike for NZ in general.

I do, unfortunately know a fair about the sport, that's down to osmosis tho


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## bendeus (Jul 21, 2011)

gabi said:


> Um.. when do i do that??



Every autumn


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## bendeus (Jul 21, 2011)

flypanam said:


> I don't think they would be actually capable of doing that themselves.


 
No. They'd drop the rope.


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## flypanam (Jul 21, 2011)

Your on fire today, bendeus!


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## bendeus (Jul 21, 2011)

flypanam said:


> Your on fire today, bendeus!


 
*wafts away smoke*

I'm hoping it provides the catalyst for a revolt against Rob Howley by the oppressed masses of the Welsh backline in the same way that Mohammed Boazizi's self-immolation sparked off a popular uprising against Ben Ali in Tunisia.


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## teecee (Jul 21, 2011)

Well I for one am hoping that this becomes the Autumns must have accessory ... again


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## bendeus (Jul 21, 2011)

TBH, of the sides that can realistically win it I'd probably prefer it to be NZ than anyone else. Haven't forgiven the Bokke since the Lions tour, you'd never hear the end of it if it was Oz, can't be the Lantern-Jawed orc brood, and the presence of Onan, Horgan and Flannery in the Ireland squad defies my ability to lend them my support.

Won't be us, won't be France.

That plus the emotional element of them 'doing it' for the victims of the quake in Christchurch (I'm a sucker for pathos) sees the fairy dancers edge in front.

Be fucking hilarious to see them choke again, mind.


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## flypanam (Jul 25, 2011)

Scrath my dismissal of Australia. I have been reconverted after beating the boks 39-20.


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## bendeus (Jul 25, 2011)

A very denuded Bokke, mind.......


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## flypanam (Jul 26, 2011)

True, but the Australian backline looked very good. Cooper was excellent and from 9 to 15 all played exceptionally well, even Ashley Cooper had a decent go. However I think their outside centre is a position of real weakness for them.


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## flypanam (Jul 26, 2011)

Interesting but old debate about kidney on the Ulternative Alster forums

http://www.uafc.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=11275


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## starfish (Jul 26, 2011)

I think Scotland will be lucky to get out of their group this time round. Winning the test series in Argentina seems a long time ago now.


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## flypanam (Jul 28, 2011)

I think the Scots will get to the quarters they are not as poor as they were a couple of years ago. Still I think they need to get a Border team back and at least have Pro12  in Scottish Rugbys' heartland. 5,000 or less turning up to Glasgow games is a poor effort.

In other news and I'm not sure I should be writting this I've been reminded that Jonah Lomu has endorsed Ireland to do well. Bob Dwyer in 2007 did the same thing. Kiss. Of. Death.


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## mattie (Jul 29, 2011)

Apparently Eddie Jones reckons England won't win the World cup because of Youngs and Flood.

I also reckon England won't win the World Cup, so I find myself in the uncomfortable position of agreeing with Eddie Jones, rescued only by the distinction that I can't see how he missed the fact our centres are more of a problem.

Matt Banahan ftw.  Well, for the crunch if he faces Nonu and SBW.


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## mattie (Jul 29, 2011)

flypanam said:


> I think the Scots will get to the quarters they are not as poor as they were a couple of years ago. Still I think they need to get a Border team back and at least have Pro12  in Scottish Rugbys' heartland. 5,000 or less turning up to Glasgow games is a poor effort.
> 
> In other news and I'm not sure I should be writting this I've been reminded that Jonah Lomu has endorsed Ireland to do well. Bob Dwyer in 2007 did the same thing. Kiss. Of. Death.


 
In better news for the sweats, Southwell isn't going to the WC.

Actually, that's harsh, Parks is worse.


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## gabi (Jul 30, 2011)

Second string all blacks currently demolishing second string saffas. Carter's playing mind you. Pretty well too. Good to see Cory Jane back too, from the same shithole of a town as me.


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## bendeus (Aug 2, 2011)

Matthew Rees is a major doubt for the WC with a neck injury. This brings the chilling prospect of Huw "Cow's arse with a banjo" Bennett once more pulling on the red shirt and chucking lineout ball after lineout ball to the opposition.

Why oh why do we never see our British Lions front row together?


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## gabi (Aug 4, 2011)

Anyone know of a fantasy game for this? can't find one...


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## bendeus (Aug 4, 2011)

*Tim Cymru*

Rhys Priestland (Scarlets); George North (Scarlets), Jonathan Davies (Scarlets), Jamie Roberts (Cardiff Blues), Shane Williams; Stephen Jones (Scarlets), Mike Phillips (Bayonne); Paul James (Ospreys), Huw Bennett (Ospreys), Craig Mitchell (Exeter), Bradley Davies (Blues), Alun Wyn Jones (Ospreys), Danny Lydiate (Newport Gwent Dragons), Toby Faletau (Dragons), Sam Warburton (Blues, capt).

Replacements: Lloyd Burns (Dragons), Ryan Bevington (Ospreys), Luke Charteris (Dragons), Ryan Jones (Ospreys), Tavis Knoyle (Scarlets), Scott Williams (Scarlets), Morgan Stoddart (Scarlets).

*Tim (nice but dim) Lloegr*

*D Armitage* (London Irish); *M Banahan* (Bath Rugby), *M Tuilagi *(Leicester Tigers), *R Flutey* (London Wasps), M Cueto (Sale Sharks); J Wilkinson (Toulon), D Care (Harlequins); *A Corbisiero* (London Irish), *D Hartley *(Northampton Saints), *M Stevens* (Saracens), *S Shaw* (Unattached), T Palmer (Stade Francais), T Croft (Leicester Tigers), L Moody (Bath Rugby, capt), J Haskell (Ricoh Black Rams).

Replacements: L Mears (Bath Rugby), D Wilson (Bath Rugby), *M Botha* (Saracens), T Wood (Northampton Saints), R Wigglesworth (Saracens), C Hodgson (Saracens), C Sharples (Gloucester Rugby).

Not a bad XV for Wales (with the notable exception of Cow's Arse: Banjo), though Saes are going to cause us problems up front with Mitchell at t/h. Like the balance (and youth) of the Welsh backrow. No Henson on the bench, which either means that he's not going to the world cup, or that Gatland's saving him for the two home ties. Probably the latter, tbh. Once more deeply underwhelmed by the centre pairing. Death. Of. Ball. Imminent.

Oh, and our bench is beyond gash. God help us if we have any injuries early doors.

9 foreign-born mercenaries (bolded) in the XXII for Johnno's foreign legion orc-replica allstars. Good to see the heart-of-oak stout yeoman centre pairing of Flutey and Tuilagi ensure that once Jeebus has flung it wide, a try could quite easily be scored without an Englishman actually touching the bloody thing. Mattie baiting aside, that pairing could do some damage, IMO.

Oh, and since when has the Hask been playing for the Ricoh Black Rams???


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## mattie (Aug 4, 2011)

bendeus said:


> *Tim Cymru*
> 
> Rhys Priestland (Scarlets); George North (Scarlets), Jonathan Davies (Scarlets), Jamie Roberts (Cardiff Blues), Shane Williams; Stephen Jones (Scarlets), Mike Phillips (Bayonne); Paul James (Ospreys), Huw Bennett (Ospreys), Craig Mitchell (Exeter), Bradley Davies (Blues), Alun Wyn Jones (Ospreys), Danny Lydiate (Newport Gwent Dragons), Toby Faletau (Dragons), Sam Warburton (Blues, capt).
> 
> ...


 


Jersey.

Did you know Lydiate was born in Salford?  The big turncoat.  Mind you, I suppose better Welsh than Rugby League.

Only the one Tongan in the taffie team, alongside Englishmen Lydiate, Davies (J) and 'gorgeous George' North.

I'll be there, blind-drunk and all shouty.

eta:  Haskell was touted as being Bath-bound, but instead it looks like a season in Japan, one in Oz and then Wasps (I think).


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## mattie (Aug 4, 2011)

I suppose I should talk about the rugby - I hope Mears gets a game, he formed an absolutely awesome pairing with Stevens prior to the fat one letting his party instincts get the better of him, technically excellent but just a little bit l'il.


Not quite sure about that back row, but we shall see.


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## The Boy (Aug 4, 2011)

I'm trying really hard to get excited about this, but i can't.  I really, really can't.  Maybe once we're out and the quarters have started....


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## Teaboy (Aug 4, 2011)

Corbisiero was 4 when he moved to England?  Plus his mum is English.  

I've got a friend who was born on a boat in international waters, its sad he has no nationality.


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## trampie (Aug 4, 2011)

gabi said:


> Anyone know of a fantasy game for this? can't find one...


 
Im sure there will be a few about come the time of the World Cup, I will probably set up a mini league and post the details on here.


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## starfish (Aug 4, 2011)

mattie said:


> In better news for the sweats, Southwell isn't going to the WC.
> 
> Actually, that's harsh, Parks is worse.


 
Hugo is a solid enough player but you always expect him to do something really stupid during the game & usually he does.


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## sleaterkinney (Aug 4, 2011)

Is it true than Wales have a black jersey for the wc too?


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## mattie (Aug 4, 2011)

sleaterkinney said:


> Is it true than Wales have a black jersey for the wc too?


 
*Awaits punchline with baited breath*

I'll be keen to see how Bananaman does on Saturday, used correctly he's awesome, used poorly he can be a bit risky.  He'll be up against Ickle, which is chalk vs cheese.  Thought he might be better up against North, but I suppose Johnson wants to see if he can at least lay hands on a stepper and jinker.


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## sleaterkinney (Aug 4, 2011)

mattie said:


> *Awaits punchline with baited breath*



Seriously. http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2011/aug/03/warren-gatland-black-wales-kit

I think Wales will find it tough on saturday. Why are we playing France twice btw?


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## mattie (Aug 4, 2011)

Ah, sorry, I was wondering what comedy avenue you were ploughing 

But, by God, I hate this whole 'disrespect' nonsense.  It's a shirt sales decision and nothing much more.


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## sleaterkinney (Aug 4, 2011)

Me, a comedy avenue?

I think it is disrespect, the black kit is part of their identity, part of rugby's identity even, and you've got teams bringing out the same kit?. If I was a kiwi I'd go mental.


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## gabi (Aug 4, 2011)

sleaterkinney said:


> Me, a comedy avenue?
> 
> I think it is disrespect, the black kit is part of their identity, part of rugby's identity even, and you've got teams bringing out the same kit?. If I was a kiwi I'd go mental.


 
I'm a kiwi. I think its fucking embarrassing.  Only wales surpasses nz in the global pathetic league. Our pm has weighed in. Over a jersey. Jesus.


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## mattie (Aug 5, 2011)

sleaterkinney said:


> Me, a comedy avenue?
> 
> I think it is disrespect, the black kit is part of their identity, part of rugby's identity even, and you've got teams bringing out the same kit?. If I was a kiwi I'd go mental.


 
The NZ change kit is white.  Which sort of makes sense, and also manages not to offend me.


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## bendeus (Aug 5, 2011)

gabi said:


> Only wales surpasses nz in the global pathetic league.


 
O rly?

Crowd behaviour: bottling French players on the pitch during an international match. Class. NZ win
Unsporting behaviour: Richie McCaw generally and the double spear tackling of BOD. NZ win
Preciousness: This latest spat of whining over the black jersey, and sulking in the changing room because you're not allowed to do your fairy dance after the national anthem of the host side. NZ win
Whining: Ongoing, undiminished and undignified squealing over Barnes during the last RWC semi in which you were soundly and fairly beaten by France (four years and counting). NZ win
Threatening Referees: Death threats against Barnes following the above. Class. NZ win
Dictating the behaviour of opposing teams: bleating on about the elders being angered every time another team tries to respond to the fairy dance in a manner not redolent of cowed defeat and fear. NZ win
Political interference: Your PM's 'intervention' plus political statements post RWC 2007. Nuff said. NZ win.
Disrespecting other teams in the press: 'Village idiots of world rugby". Nice. NZ win
Choking: lol. NZ win
Playing rugby: Wales truly are shit. Wales win.

Sweet as, Bro. You're top of the twat charts in everything but playing rugby, and even then you can't win a fucking world cup.


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## bendeus (Aug 5, 2011)

mattie said:


> The NZ change kit is white.  Which sort of makes sense, and also manages not to offend me.


 
I am deeply offended by it on your behalf. I have consulted the elders (my gran), who has made it clear that the opposition wearing anything but  frilly pink Bo-Peep dresses and losing by 400 points is disrespectful to the Native English tradition so stoutly exemplified by Manu Tuilagi and Ricky Flutey.


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## bendeus (Aug 5, 2011)

sleaterkinney said:


> Me, a comedy avenue?
> 
> I think it is disrespect, the black kit is part of their identity, part of rugby's identity even, and you've got teams bringing out the same kit?. If I was a kiwi I'd go mental.


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## Lord Camomile (Aug 5, 2011)

Had a look at the fixture list this morning, little suspicious that all of England's group matches are at the weekend  Was rather looking forward to catching a game before work, ala the 2002 football World Cup in Japan and S.Korea. Got a Welsh fan at work so might catch the Namibia match on Monday 26th.


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## gabi (Aug 5, 2011)

bendeus said:


> O rly?
> 
> Crowd behaviour: bottling French players on the pitch during an international match. Class. NZ win
> Unsporting behaviour: Richie McCaw generally and the double spear tackling of BOD. NZ win
> ...


 
Bendeus. This morning.






What do you think Wales' chances are btw?


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## bendeus (Aug 5, 2011)

Slim to nil. We'll be out after the first two games after losing to Samoa and the Bokke. Fiji will then complete the humiliation and Namibia will give us a scare.


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## bendeus (Aug 5, 2011)

gabi said:


> Bendeus. This morning.


 
Quite, quite. Do you have anything to back up your claim that we're top of the pathetic league, though.

We're just a shit you, who have got used to losing.


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## gabi (Aug 5, 2011)

For the record, bendeus, i dont particularly support the all blacks. the permeation of rugby in every facet of NZ culture is a large part of why i and most of my friends got the fuck out of there. it encourages macho bullshit meathead behaviour, somethin im not a fan of. i dont mind watching it from time to time tho. and i won a hefty wedge on the NZ/France semi in Cardiff (which i was at). i like to see them lose in honesty.

this time however, i wont be betting against them. there's not a snowball's chance in hell anyone's going to get close to them. and u know it.


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## Teaboy (Aug 5, 2011)

Lord Camomile said:


> Had a look at the fixture list this morning, little suspicious that all of England's group matches are at the weekend


 
It is a bit suss isnt it?  Support a lesser team and its 3am on a Wednesday morning, English fans can have the nice plumb spots of mid morning on the weekend.  

Also I've just looked at the groups and who and how much did we have to pay for that group?  Still probably lose to the argies though.


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## Teaboy (Aug 5, 2011)

gabi said:


> this time however, i wont be betting against them. there's not a snowball's chance in hell anyone's going to get close to them. and u know it.



If they can't win this one they might as well give the sport up.

With the Tri-nations being played so close to the world cup do people think thati ts an advantage or a potential problem?  Obviously coming into the world cup properly battle hardened by competative rugby is good, but surely there is a fair risk of injuries and suspensions etc?


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## gabi (Aug 5, 2011)

the all blacks have been resting their key players in the tri-nations. or using them sparingly. so have the saffas.

bit of a shit tournament as a result.


----------



## gabi (Aug 5, 2011)

dan carter's new apprentice colin slade looks the business btw, if you havent seen him. should be an easy transition at fly-half when carter eventually ups sticks to europe.


----------



## bendeus (Aug 5, 2011)

gabi said:


> For the record, bendeus, i dont particularly support the all blacks. the permeation of rugby in every facet of NZ culture is a large part of why i and most of my friends got the fuck out of there. it encourages macho bullshit meathead behaviour, somethin im not a fan of. i dont mind watching it from time to time tho. and i won a hefty wedge on the NZ/France semi in Cardiff (which i was at). i like to see them lose in honesty.
> 
> this time however, i wont be betting against them. there's not a snowball's chance in hell anyone's going to get close to them. and u know it.


 
I'd suggest you have a rather, erm, bipolar relationship with your team. I hear you when you talk about your distaste for the macho culture of rugby - as someone who grew up in a S.Wales town, and who saw the 'hilarious' antics of our local rugby boys at first hand, I'd say I shared that, and can understand why you'd react against it. You do, however, appear to fall prey to the 'we're better than everybody else' vibe that characterises NZ rugby when you post on the threads. In fairness, though, you are better than everybody else, and yes, I can't see anybody else lifting the cup this year. 

As mentioned in one of my previous posts I wouldn't be averse to an AB victory. I like the idea of a small nation playing such incredible rugby consistently, year in-year out. I like the playing philosophy (bar the gamesmanship), and I love to watch you guys when you're in full flow (there's nothing quite like it in world rugby).

I guess a degree of chauvenism and arrogance is an clear byproduct of that dominance. That this occasionally manifests itself in some fairly ugly ways is, I guess, inevitable, but distasteful nonetheless.


----------



## bendeus (Aug 5, 2011)

Teaboy said:


> Still probably lose to the argies though.


 
Doubt it.


----------



## bendeus (Aug 5, 2011)

Teaboy said:


> If they can't win this one they might as well give the sport up.
> 
> With the Tri-nations being played so close to the world cup do people think thati ts an advantage or a potential problem?  Obviously coming into the world cup properly battle hardened by competative rugby is good, but surely there is a fair risk of injuries and suspensions etc?


 
As Gabi says, it's hard to read anything due to the fact that the sides are all weakened. Reckon that it will confer a psychological advantage on whichever team dominates, though, and could help to integrate fringe players and up-and-comers, as well as to work out new alignments, patterns and tactics.


----------



## mattie (Aug 5, 2011)

Teaboy said:


> It is a bit suss isnt it?  Support a lesser team and its 3am on a Wednesday morning, English fans can have the nice plumb spots of mid morning on the weekend.


 
Two words: Sky Sports.

Actually, a third and a fourth as well, just in case it's not clear: Television Revenue.


----------



## mattie (Aug 5, 2011)

bendeus said:


> I am deeply offended by it on your behalf. I have consulted the elders (my gran), who has made it clear that the opposition wearing anything but  frilly pink Bo-Peep dresses and losing by 400 points is disrespectful to the Native English tradition so stoutly exemplified by Manu Tuilagi and Ricky Flutey.


 


God, I hope Tuilagi scores a Hat-Trick.  

I note your new 8 follows in the fine tradition of foreign 8s.  Either brain-dead or imports, or a Quinell.


----------



## mattie (Aug 5, 2011)

gabi said:


> the all blacks have been resting their key players in the tri-nations. or using them sparingly. so have the saffas.
> 
> bit of a shit tournament as a result.


 
NZ still look very tidy, which is an intimidating thought.


----------



## mattie (Aug 5, 2011)

When's Chavin getting a runout, btw?  

There's another young kid in centres for him to bully and dine out on for the next half-decade.


----------



## mattie (Aug 7, 2011)

mattie said:


> God, I hope Tuilagi scores a Hat-Trick.
> 
> I note your new 8 follows in the fine tradition of foreign 8s. Either brain-dead or imports, or a Quinell.



Well, an Englishman scored 3 of the tries, at least.

Not the best game but some decent intensity, but it was only really intended to give the fringe players an opportunity.

Bad injury for Stoddart, rotten luck and rotten timing.


----------



## bendeus (Aug 7, 2011)

Funny old game, really. Wales mainly undone by England's forward power and the boot of Jeebus. Not impressed by Tuilagi in spite of his try. He looked frequently misaligned in defence and fairly ponderous on the ball. His try was a soft one, and should have been cut off at source by, I think, Paul James.

Positives for England included Armitage and Matt Stevens, who gave James a torrid time up front.

I was pretty pleased by our retention, decision-making, and our fitness, esp. in the final quarter where the English were blowing out of their arses. Definitely an improvement in finishing off those pressure moves in the oppo 22, whereas last year we'd have blown it by knocking on or holding on.

Welsh standouts for me were Warburton, who is fast becoming world class, North, Priestland, who played with a lot of guile and composure for a kid and, to a degree, Bradley. Ryan Jones was excellent at steadying the ship when brought on for Faletau, who was a disappointment going forward. Think the occasion may have been a bit much for him, and wonder whether he's quite there yet.

My XV for the return at the MS (injuries permitting):

Byrne, Williams, Roberts, Henson, Wellies, Phillips, North, Gethin, Bennett, Adam, Bradley, AWJ, Ryan, Delve, Warburton

Barring the return of M.Rees, I also happen to think that's our strongest XV


----------



## bendeus (Aug 7, 2011)

mattie said:


> When's Chavin getting a runout, btw?
> 
> There's another young kid in centres for him to bully and dine out on for the next half-decade.


----------



## mattie (Aug 7, 2011)

Bite, damn you.


----------



## mattie (Aug 7, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Funny old game, really. Wales mainly undone by England's forward power and the boot of Jeebus. Not impressed by Tuilagi in spite of his try. He looked frequently misaligned in defence and fairly ponderous on the ball. His try was a soft one, and should have been cut off at source by, I think, Paul James.
> 
> Positives for England included Armitage and Matt Stevens, who gave James a torrid time up front.
> 
> ...



Interesting to note that England weren't fit enough to last the 80, pretty damn rare at this level but shows the differences in build-up between the two teams.  England's appears to have been correspondingly less intense.  No idea which is better, time will probably tell.

Care doesn't cut it at this level, very sharp sniping but simply can't get a ball away quickly - similar to Mike Phillips, obvious rugby qualities but not the basics a 9 needs.

Haskell is not an eight, but I'm not sure who we turn to behind Easter (who, for all his faults, has very good footballing skills and is very strong).  Very impressed by Warburton, the stand-out backrow on the park.  Croft doesn't quite look right, and Moody just can't get a run of uninjured games together.  We've not got long to get the back row going as a unit, I presume Croft/Gunshow/Easter but there's not much ball-pilfering potential in there.  I'm not sure where Wood would fit.

No idea how North ended up with 2 tries, a good physical specimen but wasn't involved that much - certainly not the same amount of inside running as in the 6N, where he asked defensive lines some interesting questions.  The anticipated (by me, at least)  battle between Bananaman and Ickle didn't transpire.  Suspect next week will see the first-choices start, not sure Bananaman did enough to guarantee a place but Johnson sees the potential.

It felt a bit of a damp squib, I may be going to Cardiff next weekend where I hope it's a little less flat.


----------



## starfish (Aug 7, 2011)

Thought the our forwards played well yesterday, it wasnt Irelands best pack but we were on top of them for most of the game. Cant remember the last time a prop, Geoff Cross, won man of the match. The backs were the same usual self, lots of effort but no end product. Try was a cracker though. Overall we deserved to win the game as we were the better team & played better rugby. But it still hasnt changed my opinion that we'll struggle to get out our group.


----------



## mattie (Aug 7, 2011)

starfish said:


> Thought the our forwards played well yesterday, it wasnt Irelands best pack but we were on top of them for most of the game. Cant remember the last time a prop, Geoff Cross, won man of the match. The backs were the same usual self, lots of effort but no end product. Try was a cracker though. Overall we deserved to win the game as we were the better team & played better rugby. But it still hasnt changed my opinion that we'll struggle to get out our group.



Assuming you're more likely to have an eye out for them, do you know if there any highlights anywhere?


----------



## starfish (Aug 7, 2011)

mattie said:


> Assuming you're more likely to have an eye out for them, do you know if there any highlights anywhere?



Apart from this clip of Ansbro's try, i havent seen any.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/14432283.stm


----------



## mattie (Aug 7, 2011)

First-phase, and made more than one hole in the Irish line.

Not wishing to provoke, but I can't recall seeing that from Scotland for quite a while.  Good stuff.


----------



## starfish (Aug 7, 2011)

mattie said:


> First-phase, and made more than one hole in the Irish line.
> 
> Not wishing to provoke, but I can't recall seeing that from Scotland for quite a while. Good stuff.



No worries, neither have i. They had a couple of other decent breaks but either ran out of support or didnt pass at the right time. Theyve been like that for quite a while.


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## bendeus (Aug 11, 2011)

Tim Cymru:

*James Hook; George North, Jamie Roberts, Gavin Henson, Shane Williams; Rhys Priestland, Mike Phillips; Paul James, Lloyd Burns, Craig Mitchell, Luke Charteris, Alun Wyn Jones, Dan Lydiate, Sam Warburton (Captain), Toby Faletau.*

WTF is Gatland doing with that pack? Utterly powderpuff. Don't understand why Delve isn't being tried at 8 with Ryan at 6 alongside him - surely the coaching team were able to assess the Lydiate, Faletau, Warburton combination at HQ last week, so why persist with them when they clearly looked better the moment RJ came on? Also confused as to why Charteris would be picked behind a very weak front three*. *Really like the look of that backline (Chavin has apparently been 'a class apart in training', according to rumours), but how's it going to get any front-foot ball when we're being bullied in the tight*.*

Our only hope is that the 13 orc changes, and lack of gametime together, will lead to a disjointed Saes at the MS. Rumour also has it that a travelling pack of 35,000 braying Ruperts will be bringing their Range Rovers over the Severn, so little home advantage, it would seem. *
*


----------



## flypanam (Aug 11, 2011)

French squad to play Ireland on Saturday: 

*FRANCE (v Ireland)* : D Traille (Biarritz); V Clerc (Toulouse), D Marty (Perpignan), M Mermoz (Perpignan), A Palisson (Brive); F Trinh-Duc (Montpellier), D Yachvili (Biarritz); S Marconnet (Biarritz), D Szarzewski (Stade Francais), L Ducalcon (Castres), J Pierre (Clermont Auvergne), R Millo-Chluski (Toulouse), T Dusautoir (Toulouse) (capt), I Harinordoquy (Biarritz), R Lakafia (Biarritz). Replacements: G Guirado (Perpignan), JB Poux (Toulouse), L Nallet (Racing Metro), J Bonnaire (Clermont Auvergne), M Parra (Clermont Auvergne), D Skrela (Toulouse), M Medard (Toulouse), F Barcella (Biarritz) .

I thought we did well against scotland. Our defense on the whole was good. I think Felix Jones was at fault for the Ansbro try. I think Boss should have got more game time. Kearney looked good. All in all a typical first game of the season.  Shitting playing aginst this French side though looking forward to seeing Lakafia play.


----------



## flypanam (Aug 11, 2011)

*Ireland (v France):* Kearney; Trimble, Earls, Wallace, Fitzgerald; O'Gara, Reddan; Healy, Best, Ross; Cullen, O'Callaghan, Ryan, O'Brien, Leamy. _
_


----------



## bendeus (Aug 11, 2011)

All depends on how the scrum is reffed, of course


----------



## flypanam (Aug 11, 2011)

The best way of course: Let Ireland cheat and win. What other way to ref is there???


----------



## bendeus (Aug 11, 2011)

Well, there's always the Walsh school of even-handed, breathtaking incompetence.


----------



## gabi (Aug 11, 2011)

south africa v australia's on at a reasonable time this w/e too. 4pm.


----------



## bendeus (Aug 11, 2011)

Bokke side looking lot stronger. Be interesting to see how they go.


----------



## flypanam (Aug 12, 2011)

bendeus - I've just been reading the Radio Times. You'll be pleased to know that Chavin's TV show 'The Bachelor' is going to be broadcast on C5 on the 19th. Those burds look proper hard.

Should be shite enough to take yr mind of Warren Gatland for an hour or so.


----------



## gabi (Aug 12, 2011)

Still not quite sure why you guys have employed Warren Gatland... I dread the day he somehow uses his jedi mind tricks to get the all blacks job. he's tried and tried but so far the powers that be in NZ rugby have stood firm.


----------



## flypanam (Aug 12, 2011)

I'm not Welsh so can't anser for them but I'm sure the committee men in Cardiff went through a check list:
Warren Gatland at;
Connacht: Success
Ireland: Sucess
W.A.S.P.S: Success
Waikato: Success

Warren Gatland plus points:

He's not Welsh. Players won't understand him. No chance of some Borth nutter alienating the rest of the team. No player heart attacks/strokes = Bonus.

Pay:

He's expensive.

As Wales love splashing cash on head coaches it was a WIN WIN WIN situation.


----------



## bendeus (Aug 12, 2011)

flypanam said:


> bendeus - I've just been reading the Radio Times. You'll be pleased to know that Chavin's TV show 'The Bachelor' is going to be broadcast on C5 on the 19th. Those burds look proper hard.
> 
> Should be shite enough to take yr mind of Warren Gatland for an hour or so.



It has certainly generated a lot of froth from amongst the more 'traditional' Welsh rugby support. 'How dare he?'. 'He should either be a sleb or a rugby player; not both', etc., etc.

I'm more sanguine about it: the guy hasn't been drawing a proper salary for a couple of years now. He's got two kids, and needs the income. A nice bit of note for a ten-day stint in a house being fawned over by loads of attractive women isn't something that most would turn down (though I couldn't quite see the likes of Leo Cullen getting the gig).

As long as he's fit and fighting for the WC, and that it hasn't affected his conditioning (which was what they were doing while he was filming, during which time he had a bespoke regime designed for him, and which, apparently, he kept to) then the h8erz can go spin.


----------



## bendeus (Aug 12, 2011)

gabi said:


> Still not quite sure why you guys have employed Warren Gatland... I dread the day he somehow uses his jedi mind tricks to get the all blacks job. he's tried and tried but so far the powers that be in NZ rugby have stood firm.



Because he's a proven winner, who is good at getting the basics right. You have to see his appointment in context: Welsh rugby was in meltdown after the Gareth Jenkins 'era', the team were divided, seriously underperforming and humiliated. Gatland came in, steadied the ship and got the team working to a basic, physical gameplan that won them the GS. In his, and his coaching team's, favour, they've improved the scrum, they've improved defence, and they've improved fitness out of sight. Unfortunately, they have failed to address problems at the lineout, and due to such a rigid, gainline-based, limited gameplan thatn relies on lots of phases to stretch an oppo defence, they have turned a very instinctive attacking side into one that does rugby by numbers and fails, in my opinion, to build on the natural strengths inherent in the Welsh game.

Gatland is a stubborn bastard, and appears to have a ceiling in terms of his abilities that puts him in the rung below the very top coaches. I'd be happy for him to be kept on, but with an innovator in the team, who is able to make the backs tick instead of Stan fucking Laurel. Let Warren sort the setpiece, let Edwards sort defence, but for Chrissake get some other sod in to do attack/skills, and force Gatland to hand over some power and responsibility for executing a more open gameplan.


----------



## flypanam (Aug 12, 2011)

bendeus said:


> (though I couldn't quite see the likes of Leo Cullen getting the gig).



What do you mean?

Leo Cullen = Ireland's best looking man. 4 years in row now.


----------



## bendeus (Aug 13, 2011)

flypanam said:


> What do you mean?
> 
> Leo Cullen = Ireland's best looking man. 4 years in row now.



Leo Cullen, yesterday,


----------



## mattie (Aug 13, 2011)

bendeus said:


> It has certainly generated a lot of froth from amongst the more 'traditional' Welsh rugby support. 'How dare he?'. 'He should either be a sleb or a rugby player; not both', etc., etc.
> 
> I'm more sanguine about it: the guy hasn't been drawing a proper salary for a couple of years now. He's got two kids, and needs the income. A nice bit of note for a ten-day stint in a house being fawned over by loads of attractive women isn't something that most would turn down (though I couldn't quite see the likes of Leo Cullen getting the gig).
> 
> As long as he's fit and fighting for the WC, and that it hasn't affected his conditioning (which was what they were doing while he was filming, during which time he had a bespoke regime designed for him, and which, apparently, he kept to) then the h8erz can go spin.



Historically, he's not had the best of luck insulating rugby from the other stuff. Hopefully he's learned.


----------



## bendeus (Aug 13, 2011)

Rofl. I don't know which is the more comedic: our tight five or England's attack. What a fucking joke of a game. SH teams must be wetting themselves.


----------



## bendeus (Aug 13, 2011)

Wales ahead with Sam Warburton giving a masterclass in jackalling 7 play. England backline falling to pieces


----------



## bendeus (Aug 13, 2011)

Rolland clearly has decided that England need to win. What a cunt! All the Saes cheating at the breakdown after their 'final warning', and not a card to be seen. Spikey offends once.......


----------



## bendeus (Aug 13, 2011)

Well fuck me rigid. 134 tackles to 72, 20 minutes with men in the bin, 30 minutes of the game spent in our own 22, Shane finishing at fullback, second choice pack on the field, absolutely marmalised at the setpiece, Rolland deciding to ignore persistent infringement by England at the breakdown, Toby Faletau dropping every ball that came his way and we manage a win without conceding a single try.

Fucking funniest Welsh win I've ever seen in my whole life.

Huge questions going to be asked of England after this - they've Ireland next up in Dublin, which they won't be relishing. Reckon the Jocks may just be fancying their chances in the pool stage. They're either seriously undercooked fitness-wise, or Wales' conditioning, coupled with the cryogenic chamber in Poland, has put us head and shoulders above them. How can a team that has made double the tackles be so clearly on top during the last 20? Saes were totally spent.

One question - Barnes was tugging himself senseless in the commentary box about Cole 'twisting his body and altering the angle of the shove' to put pressure on Burns. Now to me that's called boring in, and Cole was doing it consistently. Rolland didn't want to know, of course, but can anybody tell me when pressurising the hooker by driving across the scrum is legal, and when it's simple cheating? For the life of me it looked like the latter.


----------



## mattie (Aug 14, 2011)

England lost a warm-up game.  Wow.

I can't say I'm hugely fussed.

It was pretty fucking shambolic though.  I only caught various moments of it in a shithole of  a pub in Chepstow, but England butchered- truly murdered - 3 sitters.

It seemed like someone had greased the ball - everyone was coughing it up.


----------



## Red Faction (Aug 17, 2011)

i hope for the dignity of irish rugby that we dont field a team in the world cup, call sickies and allow teams to have a walkover
rather than actually turn up and get thumped by minnows in humiliating fashion

its painful to watch these games, 
the last time i found it so difficult to watch ireland play- oh, it was the last world cup

balls


----------



## flypanam (Aug 19, 2011)

Red Faction said:


> i hope for the dignity of irish rugby that we dont field a team in the world cup, call sickies and allow teams to have a walkover
> rather than actually turn up and get thumped by minnows in humiliating fashion
> 
> its painful to watch these games,
> ...



Me too RF. My pants are properly worried about meeting the USA on the 10th anniversary of 9/11(the patriotism will stink of CK one and Abercrombie and Fitch. They'll be a few D4 girls hastly arranging next years J1 after the match.) Especially as they are coached by Eo'S.

In reality it's probably nothing to worry about but we stopped grinning when Georgia should have turned us over last time.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Aug 20, 2011)

Red Faction said:


> i hope for the dignity of irish rugby that we dont field a team in the world cup, call sickies and allow teams to have a walkover
> rather than actually turn up and get thumped by minnows in humiliating fashion
> 
> its painful to watch these games,
> ...


Get a grip, we haven't put a full strength side out yet. Do you think Paddy Wallace will be starting come the WC?


----------



## flypanam (Aug 22, 2011)

sleaterkinney said:


> Get a grip, we haven't put a full strength side out yet. Do you think Paddy Wallace will be starting come the WC?



Kidnet putting sexton to 12 after O'Gara came on was I think the signal that D'arcy might have had his day. Kidney has been toying with the NZ idea of a first and 2nd 5/8 that is two distributors for a while now. The only problem is that without D'arcy the 10/12 channel looks decidely easy to break through.

I guess Paddy Wallace will go and start in the USA game.


----------



## flypanam (Aug 22, 2011)

Ireland squad: R Best (Ulster), I Boss (Leinster), T Bowe (Ospreys), T Buckley (Sale), T Court (Ulster), S Cronin (Leinster), L Cullen (Leinster), G D'Arcy (Leinster), K Earls (Munster), S Ferris (Ulster), J Flannery (Munster), C Healy (Leinster), J Heaslip (Leinster), R Kearney (Leinster), D Leamy (Munster), F McFadden (Leinster), G Murphy (Leicester), C Murray (Munster), S O'Brien (Leinster), D O'Callaghan (Munster), P O'Connell (Munster), B O'Driscoll (Leinster, capt), R O'Gara (Munster), E Reddan (Leinster), M Ross (Leinster), D Ryan (Munster), J Sexton (Leinster), A Trimble (Ulster), P Wallace (Ulster), D Wallace (Munster).

Pretty good squad. O'Leary and Fitzgerald both failed to make it, their lack of confidence have done them in. Not happy with the inclusion of Fuckley whose pretty useless. That connacht lad Jamie hagan should have gone instead. Delighted for Boss and Conor Murray!


----------



## gabi (Aug 22, 2011)

NZ got spanked by the saffas on sat in port elizabeth. altho they dropped the ball on the goal line about 5 times. and it was the second string. still. makes it interesting, would be good to see SA pull together in time for the cup.


----------



## mattie (Aug 22, 2011)

World Cup 30s being announced - Wales have an Englishman captaining the side.

Jonno is dragging his heels, for some reaon, but looks like it'll be Tuilagi in and Flutey out.

As an aside, Tom Rees has had further rotten luck:
http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,3823_7118356,00.html
Not fair.


----------



## starfish (Aug 22, 2011)

*Scotland squad: *
*Backs:* Joe Ansbro (London Irish), Mike Blair (Edinburgh), Chris Cusiter (Glasgow Warriors), Simon Danielli (Ulster), Nick De Luca (Edinburgh), Max Evans (Castres), Ruaridh Jackson (Glasgow Warriors), Rory Lamont (Toulon), Sean Lamont (Scarlets), Rory Lawson (Gloucester), Graeme Morrison (Glasgow Warriors), Dan Parks (Cardiff Blues), Chris Paterson (Edinburgh).
*Forwards:* John Barclay (Glasgow Warriors), Kelly Brown (Saracens), Geoff Cross (Edinburgh), Alasdair Dickinson (Sale Sharks), Ross Ford (Edinburgh), Richie Gray, Dougie Hall (both Glasgow Warriors), Jim Hamilton (Gloucester), Nathan Hines (Clermont Auvergne), Allan Jacobsen (Edinburgh), Alastair Kellock (captain, Glasgow Warriors), Scott Lawson (Gloucester), Moray Low (Glasgow Warriors), Euan Murray (Newcastle Falcons), Ross Rennie (Edinburgh), Alasdair Strokosch (Gloucester), Richie Vernon (Sale Sharks).

Possibly only surprise is no Johnnie Beattie but maybe time wasnt on his side as he had been out injured for a while. Im starting to like our chances of getting out of the group now.


----------



## bendeus (Aug 23, 2011)

mattie said:


> World Cup 30s being announced - *Wales have an Englishman captaining the side.*
> 
> Jonno is dragging his heels, for some reaon, but looks like it'll be Tuilagi in and Flutey out.
> 
> ...



Wut? Sam Warburton was born and schooled in Cardiff. You're just desperately casting around for Saes when they ain't there, Mattie - you want to be putting more tobacco in them.

Good to see you guys have retained the mercurial talent of Matt Bananaman in the 30. Looking forward to seeing him ghosting past defences in NZ; Easter Island Head has obviously gone for the free-flowing, instinctive attacking rugby option that has seen England do so well in previous WC campaigns


----------



## bendeus (Aug 23, 2011)

gabi said:


> NZ got spanked by the saffas on sat in port elizabeth. altho they dropped the ball on the goal line about 5 times. and it was the second string. still. makes it interesting, would be good to see SA pull together in time for the cup.



No, it wouldn't.


----------



## bendeus (Aug 23, 2011)

flypanam said:


> Ireland squad: R Best (Ulster), I Boss (Leinster), T Bowe (Ospreys), T Buckley (Sale), T Court (Ulster), S Cronin (Leinster), L Cullen (Leinster), G D'Arcy (Leinster), K Earls (Munster), S Ferris (Ulster), J Flannery (Munster), C Healy (Leinster), J Heaslip (Leinster), R Kearney (Leinster), D Leamy (Munster), F McFadden (Leinster), G Murphy (Leicester), C Murray (Munster), S O'Brien (Leinster), D O'Callaghan (Munster), P O'Connell (Munster), B O'Driscoll (Leinster, capt), R O'Gara (Munster), E Reddan (Leinster), M Ross (Leinster), D Ryan (Munster), J Sexton (Leinster), A Trimble (Ulster), P Wallace (Ulster), D Wallace (Munster).
> 
> Pretty good squad. O'Leary and Fitzgerald both failed to make it, their lack of confidence have done them in. Not happy with the inclusion of Fuckley whose pretty useless. That connacht lad Jamie hagan should have gone instead. Delighted for Boss and Conor Murray!



The rise and fall of Fitzgerald, eh? From Lions test starter to Magners fodder in two seasons.


----------



## flypanam (Aug 23, 2011)

Was George North born In England? Happy for Warburton, his bread is pretty shit but he's an exciting player!


----------



## flypanam (Aug 23, 2011)

Fitzgerald, total loss of confidence. Probably allied to the fact that on the big stage his decision making  is famously fragile. Still he showed a flash or two of his old instinctive self on Saturday. I'm personally struggling to see how D'arcy made it, except that we're weak as it 12.


----------



## flypanam (Aug 23, 2011)

bendeus said:


> The rise and fall of Fitzgerald, eh? From Lions test starter to Heineken Cup fodder in two seasons.



fixed.


----------



## bendeus (Aug 23, 2011)

flypanam said:


> Was George North born In England? Happy for Warburton, his bread is pretty shit but he's an exciting player!



Aye. North was born in Lloegr but moved to Wales (Anglesey, I think) when he was about three. Is a fluent Welsh speaker, if that makes any difference. Very exciting young player.

Warburton is pushing on for being the best openside in the NH, IMO. He carries, is good for a minimum of four turnovers a game, slows ball down and tackles like a bastard. I remember the last time we played Australia, and the commentators were wanking on about Pocock (who, it has to be said, had a wonderful game) without seeming to notice that Warburton had turned over the ball a similar amount of times, as well as having had similar yards carried and tackling stats. He has that uncanny knack of always being in the right place at the right time.

Starting backrow for the next Lions tour will be O'Brien, Heaslip/Faletau and Warburton (C), I reckon.


----------



## bendeus (Aug 23, 2011)

flypanam said:


> Fitzgerald, total loss of confidence. Probably allied to the fact that on the big stage his decision making is famously fragile. Still he showed a flash or two of his old instinctive self on Saturday. I'm personally struggling to see how D'arcy made it, except that we're weak as it 12.



D'Arcy is a busted flush, IMO. He's put in some wonderful service to you boys, but every dog has its day, and Gordon needs to curl up with a nice bonio by the fire.

Given the weakness at 12, reckon that the ROG/Sexton 10-12 axis is coming your way, but what happens when Onan hangs up his boots? Are we going to be seeing Sexton - Wallace - Keeturls soon, do you reckon?


----------



## flypanam (Aug 23, 2011)

bendeus said:


> D'Arcy is a busted flush, IMO. He's put in some wonderful service to you boys, but every dog has its day, and Gordon needs to curl up with a nice bonio by the fire.
> 
> Given the weakness at 12, reckon that the ROG/Sexton 10-12 axis is coming your way, but what happens when Onan hangs up his boots? Are we going to be seeing Sexton - Wallace - Keeturls soon, do you reckon?



Rog/Sexton axis will come our way and we will suffer badly for it unless Sean O'Brien covers defence there. I've got little confidence in wallace, Earls may go 12 but I don't see it. Funnily enough I actually believe that Fitzgerald may actually be able to be turned into a 12. Given that second 5/8th has so little on the time on the ball he might be instinctive enough to pull off the role. Plus with the game changing less focus on bulk and more on stamina might suit him.


----------



## flypanam (Aug 23, 2011)

All Drunks
Backs: Mils Muliaina, Israel Dagg, Isaia Toeava, Cory Jane, Zac Guildford, Conrad Smith, Ma’a Nonu, Sonny Bill Williams, Richard Kahui, Daniel Carter, Colin Slade, Jimmy Cowan, Piri Weepu, Andy Ellis.
Forwards: Kieran Read, Adam Thomson, Richie McCaw (captain), Jerome Kaino, Victor Vito, Brad Thorn, Sam Whitelock, Ali Williams, Anthony Boric, Keven Mealamu, Andrew Hore, Corey Flynn, Tony Woodcock, Owen Franks, Ben Franks, John Afoa.

I personally dislike Zac 'Smug gimped fuckfart' Guilford. Also think Dagg will excel.


----------



## mattie (Aug 23, 2011)

flypanam said:


> Was George North born In England? Happy for Warburton, his bread is pretty shit but he's an exciting player!



Oops, getting him mixed up with the Salford-born Lydiate.  Not Gorgeous George, who can feck off.


----------



## mattie (Aug 23, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Wut? Sam Warburton was born and schooled in Cardiff. You're just desperately casting around for Saes when they ain't there, Mattie - you want to be putting more tobacco in them.
> 
> Good to see you guys have retained the mercurial talent of Matt Bananaman in the 30. Looking forward to seeing him ghosting past defences in NZ; Easter Island Head has obviously gone for the free-flowing, instinctive attacking rugby option that has seen England do so well in previous WC campaigns



Jamie Roberts with mad tats and bigger.


----------



## bendeus (Aug 23, 2011)

mattie said:


> cheap imitation Jamie Roberts with mad tats and bigger.



Fixed


----------



## bendeus (Aug 24, 2011)

Ho ho ho!



> That's another aspect of this England side that offends many a former supporter – the sheer opportunism. Manu Tuilagi has five brothers who have represented Samoa. He entered Britain on a tourist visa and stayed illegally. Hape has represented New Zealand. Flutey is another New Zealander. Yet Johnson has picked them all in his time as England manager, along with a posse of South Africans.





> Before one of this year's multiple games against Wales, Ben Foden said: "It feels like we are the older brother and we have to make sure we beat our younger brother. We cannot let our younger brother get the better of us."
> As a kid on a rugby camp I experienced some shocking racism from a group of Welsh boys but with men like Foden blowing the English trumpet, no wonder there is deep resentment from other countries.
> So please, anyone but Ingerland.
> In 2003, they were worthy. In 2011, an England victory would be an embarrassment.



By A. Saes


----------



## mattie (Aug 24, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Ho ho ho!
> 
> By A. Saes



That could almost have been written by a Welshman.

We need a phrase - perhaps 'to have a leek on one's shoulder'.

On the topic of overseas players, I'm not that fussed by Manu, as he at least had some of his childhood here, but Hape already has a NZ cap (although in a different code) which begins to make a mockery of things.  The feeling remains that someone is free to choose where they make their life, and to represent the country where the've made said life (e.g. Matt Stevens), but once a choice is made it remains made.

ON the other hand, if it peeves a taffie I'm all for it.


----------



## gabi (Aug 24, 2011)

Tuilagi arrived when was about 13 didnt he? I reckon that's fair enough.

Hape, Hartley and Flutey though. I don't know how they can face the haka.


----------



## flypanam (Aug 24, 2011)

Flutey won't have to. The other two probably out of a sense of grievence as they were not good enough for the All Blacks.

Or they could do this...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13fGHSqHTwA


----------



## flypanam (Aug 24, 2011)

The Saffa squad

*South Africa* 
*BACKS* – Francois Steyn, Gio Aplon, Patrick Lambie, Bryan Habana, Odwa Ndungane, JP Pietersen, Juan de Jongh, Jaque Fourie, Jean de Villiers, Butch James, Morne Steyn, Fourie du Preez, Francois Hougaard, Ruan Pienaar.
*FORWARDS* – Pierre Spies, Willem Alberts, Heinrich Brussow, Schalk Burger, Francois Louw, Bakkies Botha, Victor Matfield, Johann Muller, Danie Rossouw, Jannie Du Plessis, CJ van der Linde, Bismarck du Plessis, Chiliboy Ralepelle, John Smit (captain), Tendai Mtawarira, Guthro Steenkamp.

Awesome pack especially with Brussow, Bismarck du Plessis and Spies but not so worried about the backs (althogh Francois Hougaard is good to watch), though I hope someone jabs a toe up Habana's arse. He is like that school kid who starts a fight then slops away...

All coming together nicely and with England talking about revenge for the loss, nay savage beating, we inflicted on them back in March this weekend will be the start of my (and hopefully Ireland's) world cup...


----------



## bendeus (Aug 24, 2011)

mattie said:


> That could almost have been written by a Welshman.



Oi! You leave us out of it!



> On the topic of overseas players, I'm not that fussed by Manu, as he at least had some of his childhood here



Does it matter that he came here on a tourist visa, and that most of the years he spent qualifying on residency grounds he was living in the UK illegally? Lucky for him that the RFU stepped in with their expensive lawyers to help him appeal the deportation order really, isn't it?



> ON the other hand, if it peeves a taffie I'm all for it.



It peeves all the right-thinking rugby world, Mattie


----------



## bendeus (Aug 24, 2011)

flypanam said:


> The Saffa squad
> 
> *South Africa*
> *BACKS* – Francois Steyn, Gio Aplon, Patrick Lambie, Bryan Habana, Odwa Ndungane, JP Pietersen, Juan de Jongh, Jaque Fourie, Jean de Villiers, Butch James, Morne Steyn, Fourie du Preez, Francois Hougaard, Ruan Pienaar.
> ...



*Whispers* I reckon the Welsh first choice can front up to that pack.

/message ends/


----------



## flypanam (Aug 25, 2011)

bendeus said:


> *Whispers* I reckon the Welsh first choice can front up to that pack.
> 
> /message ends/



..._ _ _...


----------



## The Boy (Aug 25, 2011)

France squad:

*Forwards:* Fabien Barcella, Julien Bonnaire, Luc Ducalcon, Thierry Dusautoir (captain), Imanol Harinordoquy, Guilhem Guirado, Nicolas Mas, Romain Millo-Chluski, Raphael Lakafia, Lionel Nallet, Fulgence Ouedraogo, Pascal Pape, Louis Picamoles, Julien Pierre, Jean-Baptiste Poux, William Servat, Dimitri Szarzewski.

*Backs:* Vincent Clerc, Patrice Estebanez, Cedric Heymans, David Marty, Maxime Medard, Maxime Mermoz, Alexis Palisson, Morgan Parra, Aurelien Rougerie, David Skrela, Damien Traille, Francois Trinh-Duc, Dimitri Yachvili.

Oh, and PSA confirmed as new coach after the WC.   Guy Noves turned the job down.


----------



## flypanam (Aug 25, 2011)

Looking forward to seeing Medard in his favoured fullback position, where I believe he's the best there is. But its a quarters exit for les bleus.

Noves is smart ain't he. Poisioned challice that job, not that PSA will be able to do anything with them. I think Blanco is the man, get back to basics long flowing hair, civillised lunches with wine and compulsory 20 a day habit and more mistresses. Vive la France!


----------



## gabi (Aug 25, 2011)

NZ and Aus to finally play their first choice lineups against each other this weekend. Henry's gone for Jane and Guildford on the wings.

and SBW seems to have fallen out of favour now. unbelievably.


----------



## flypanam (Aug 25, 2011)

gabi said:


> and SBW seems to have fallen out of favour now. unbelievably.



I thought the intention was that SBW was always going to be a last 30 minutes kind of player. He's an a great athlete but in terms of what he offers he's not such a great tackler, the old league insticts tend to emerge now and again, passing can be errant and his overall aim is to biff (Nonu does all that better) his real skill is the off load and to tired defences he'll be lethal.


----------



## gabi (Aug 25, 2011)

he's not even on the bench apparently. and is unlikely to be in the WC. for whatever reason. possibly something non-footy related, he's been focusing on his boxing quite a lot so maybe that's pissed off the management.


----------



## flypanam (Aug 25, 2011)

This http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=10747371 He'e in the squad he'll play the WC.

A storm in Khoder Nasser tea cup. Williams is just trying to maximise his buck. He won't commit till after the wc. It's trite but it's an agents game I think he'll go back to France.


----------



## gabi (Aug 25, 2011)

well the NZRFU will be shooting themselves massively in the foot if they don't play him. they've got some fucking weird policies i must say. they dont seem to have adapted at all to the realities of rugby being a business now.


----------



## flypanam (Aug 25, 2011)

Actually I don't think they should pay him. They have bent over backwards to accomodate him. What other sportsman would be allowed to take part in Boxing matches while still contracted to the world's top rugby team. Although it's personal they've accomdated his conversion to Islam. I sense one big ego that needs a slap. Of course being friends with ARCH arsehole Anthony Mundine doesn't help.


----------



## gabi (Aug 25, 2011)

He's box office. Rugbys about enttertainment. He's also a better player than at least Conrad smith, if not non'u as well.


----------



## flypanam (Aug 25, 2011)

No he's not. Non'u, Smith and Kahui are better (greater range of abilities and skills). Williams was awful in SA last week. If it wasn't for Kahui you'd really be asking where the midfield was. Yes he is box office and it is because he's box office that he expects to play on the big stage. I suspect the reason he ain't playing is that it is Ramadan. Not being able to eat/drink during the day not exactly gtreat preperation for a Tri Nations decider. And in their own way Henry and co are looking after poor Sonny.


----------



## flypanam (Aug 25, 2011)

mattie happy with this for the weekend?
*England (v Ireland):* B Foden; C Ashton, M Tuilagi, M Tindall (capt), M Cueto; J Wilkinson, R Wigglesworth; A Sheridan, S Thompson, D Cole; L Deacon, C Lawes; T Croft, J Haskell, N Easter. Replacements: D Hartley, M Stevens, S Shaw, T Wood, J Simpson, T Flood, D Armitage.

*Ireland (v England):* G Murphy; T Bowe; K Earls; G D’Arcy; A Trimble; R O’Gara, E Reddan; C Healy, J Flannery, M Ross; D O’Callaghan, P O’Connell; S Ferris, D Wallace, J Heaslip. *Replacements* : R Best, T Court, D Ryan, D Leamy, C Murray, J Sexton, F McFadden.


----------



## mattie (Aug 25, 2011)

flypanam said:


> mattie happy with this for the weekend?
> *England (v Ireland):* B Foden; C Ashton, M Tuilagi, M Tindall (capt), M Cueto; J Wilkinson, R Wigglesworth; A Sheridan, S Thompson, D Cole; L Deacon, C Lawes; T Croft, J Haskell, N Easter. Replacements: D Hartley, M Stevens, S Shaw, T Wood, J Simpson, T Flood, D Armitage.
> 
> *Ireland (v England):* G Murphy; T Bowe; K Earls; G D’Arcy; A Trimble; R O’Gara, E Reddan; C Healy, J Flannery, M Ross; D O’Callaghan, P O’Connell; S Ferris, D Wallace, J Heaslip. *Replacements* : R Best, T Court, D Ryan, D Leamy, C Murray, J Sexton, F McFadden.



Not one kiwi in the forwards. It's a disgrace.

And Haskell is in no way a 7, but then I recall seeing Worsley play there once upon a time so I suppose the thinking is that anyone can.


----------



## mattie (Aug 25, 2011)

gabi said:


> He's box office. Rugbys about enttertainment. He's also a better player than at least Conrad smith, if not non'u as well.



Whenever I've seen Smith play he's been excellent.  The bastard.


----------



## mattie (Aug 25, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Oi! You leave us out of it!
> 
> Does it matter that he came here on a tourist visa, and that most of the years he spent qualifying on residency grounds he was living in the UK illegally? Lucky for him that the RFU stepped in with their expensive lawyers to help him appeal the deportation order really, isn't it?
> 
> It peeves all the right-thinking rugby world, Mattie



You've come over a bit Daily Mail all of a sudden.

I suppose he was sponging off the state and sleeping with our women.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Aug 25, 2011)

It's a big match, both of us have lost recently so will be looking for a performance before the WC.


----------



## bendeus (Aug 26, 2011)

mattie said:


> You've come over a bit Daily Mail all of a sudden.
> 
> I suppose he was sponging off the state and sleeping with our women.



I know. I thought that as soon as I pressed 'send'. The depths to which I have stooped to get a rise. Contrary to how I must have come across, I absolutely welcome the right of players of every hue, creed and fast-twitch muscle configuration to come over here and represent us, vigorously, at any time of their choosing.


----------



## bendeus (Aug 26, 2011)

sleaterkinney said:


> It's a big match, both of us have lost recently so will be looking for a performance before the WC.



Very interested in this match. I think both sides need a win badly here, so = test match, I'd say.


----------



## flypanam (Aug 26, 2011)

Yeah it's a massive one, one I'm not sure we are ready for. I think our defence is sound as long as the players don't go to sleep like Sexton did last week. The problem for me is that our attacking style is all over the place. Maybe Gaffney is playing silly buggers with the Aussie management. Too many styles of attacking play has shown in how disjointed we've been all year. Howwever I think out backline actually clicks a little when Tommy is in the side. He's got the hight as well as speed to cause problems. Losing O'brien is a loss but Ferris ain't such a bad replacement. Whatever happens its a one score game.

I guess if England's disease is arrogance ours is a bi polar disorder.


----------



## mattie (Aug 26, 2011)

flypanam said:


> Yeah it's a massive one, one I'm not sure we are ready for. I think our defence is sound as long as the players don't go to sleep like Sexton did last week. The problem for me is that our attacking style is all over the place. Maybe Gaffney is playing silly buggers with the Aussie management. Too many styles of attacking play has shown in how disjointed we've been all year. Howwever I think out backline actually clicks a little when Tommy is in the side. He's got the hight as well as speed to cause problems. Losing O'brien is a loss but Ferris ain't such a bad replacement. Whatever happens its a one score game.
> 
> I guess if England's disease is arrogance ours is a bi polar disorder.



English arrogance?  Blimey, it's like the Southern Hemisphere never existed.

I saw Ferris play for Ulster against Bath, absolutely immense.  You might lose a touch of ball carrying compared to O'Brien, but win a lot more back.  The battle between backrows is going to be interesting.


----------



## flypanam (Aug 26, 2011)

mattie said:


> English arrogance? Blimey, it's like the Southern Hemisphere never existed.



hahaha your to blame for them too. (Though we should take 40% of the blame for Australia)


----------



## treefrog (Aug 26, 2011)

Kia ora thread 

Got my tickets to all the Scotland pool games, the first two are going to be nut-freezers down in the deep south, though the Scotland-England game at Eden Park's going to be bloody awesome  sad to say I've not actually seen a Scotland game since I watched the All Blacks thump them in a test at Murrayfield in 2008 (they don't show many NH games on terrestrial NZ TV for some reason), so I don't recognise many of the names in the lineup. Really hope we get past the pool stage though.

I've got to say that the All Blacks are looking pretty solid, there'll be rioting in the streets if they choke this time. There's even been an ad campaign here telling kiwis to abstain from sex during the tournament in a show of solidarity (feel free to write your own punchline). I was in hospital for the game against the Boks, but they looked pretty impressive against the Aussies a few weeks ago and they know they'll get lynched if they fail to make it this time...


----------



## flypanam (Aug 26, 2011)

Treefrog your lucky I really wanted to go. But the cost, still my offie sells Monteiths Original, Tiu and Waikato with Cheezals for snackage. Too be honest if their asking Kiwis to go without a root during the WC, I'm glad i'm up here!


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## gabi (Aug 27, 2011)

that ad campaign got pulled after a storm of negative publicity...


----------



## elfman (Aug 27, 2011)

England haven't exactly excelled in the warm ups but Ireland must be dreading the world cup now...

I think its quite a wide open competition with Aus winning the tri-nations. A month ago I was certain NZ would walk it, now I don't know who's going to win. Makes for a good cup though, can't wait for it to start


----------



## treefrog (Aug 28, 2011)

Yes it did, but it went viral and everyone talked about it anyway.

Shocking loss for the ABs last night, the first half was abominable


----------



## gabi (Aug 28, 2011)

missed the nz-aus game, but i too am glad the ockers won... looks like its gonna be a good tournament. wales and australia coming to the boil at just the right time, and nz as always peaking about a month before they should..

if they dont win the world cup, there'll be riots in auckland to put footlocker-looting toerags in south london to shame.


----------



## little_legs (Aug 28, 2011)

All Blacks looked tired y'day. Mccaw, Mealamu, Guildford and Read were easily turned around by the Wallabies and that did not happen during the 1st Bledisloe game. Not sure why All Blacks did not include Gear and Sonny Bill Williams in their squad, and the Wallabies went without O'Connor (ok, he missed 3 penalties in the 1st game).

I'll still be supporting AB's when the WC starts. Go, go AB!


----------



## flypanam (Aug 30, 2011)

I went to the pub, I watched, I asked the landlord to put on the Challenge Cup final instead.

We were awful. The only thing keeping me hopeful, is that I really don't think we've shown our hand. Our backs have been a disgrace but maybe gaffney is playing silly buggers with the Aussies, who look excellent. I'm now totally confident that they will win!

Shame about Wallace probably his last game in an Ireland jersey. I thought our scrum was okay Ferris had a good game back and I suppose that is the only positive that Ireland fans can get out of this series, our players have had two seriously hard games going into the WC. Maybe we won't be undercooked. However I won't hold my breath.


----------



## gabi (Aug 30, 2011)

anyone know if there's a better fantasy league than this one?

http://espnscrum.fantasyleague.com/


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## gabi (Aug 31, 2011)

this piece could've been written by bendeus himself

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/opinion/5535927/A-word-on-the-All-Blacks-play-Cheats


----------



## flypanam (Aug 31, 2011)

Yeah your right it's well written.

Actually the writer does have a point, in almost every game the defensive line is at least 3 steps infront of the hindmost foot. Obstruction and holding is endemic. Yet McCaw can't shut up 'Mate i don't want to talk about it BUT blah blah blah' even his little whinge about Quade Cooper at the weekend reeked of double standards.


----------



## gabi (Sep 4, 2011)

The writer's an expat pom living in new zealand, so im sure he can expect to be well-treated next time he goes into his local.. 

NZ do push the boundaries. but why the fuck not..? Sean Fitzpatrick used to be the master of it, coupled with the gift of the gab in chatting up the ref, and now McCaw's taken over and is just as good at it. if refs dont see anything wrong, they dont penalise.. maybe the rest of the rugby world needs to catch up..

I remember George Gregan was also a master at it. Northern hem sides just simply play too fair... admittedly. But yeh. check the scoreline in the paper the next day.


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## flypanam (Sep 6, 2011)

$ days to go, the sickie has been arranged, the Walkabout table reserved, the excitement building and just left to roar 'C'mon TONGA'


----------



## treefrog (Sep 6, 2011)

Hehehe, it's awesome seeing all the flags and jerseys about Auckland. It's currently a tie, Samoa have BIGGER flags but Tonga has more of them. Much as I love the All Blacks, there's a cheeky-fucker part of me that wants to see Tonga win, just 'cause the fans are so awesome


----------



## gabi (Sep 6, 2011)

flypanam said:


> $ days to go, the sickie has been arranged, the Walkabout table reserved, the excitement building and just left to roar 'C'mon TONGA'



yeh im considering taking the day off too. but.. dude.. the walkabout?!  christ.


----------



## gabi (Sep 6, 2011)

fantasy site here..

anyone fancy an urban league?

http://www.udt.co.za/fantasyrugby


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## treefrog (Sep 6, 2011)

I'm down with that....


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## gabi (Sep 6, 2011)

ok ill set it up. pretty slick site actually.


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## gabi (Sep 6, 2011)

ok done - code is 4284452607771


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## treefrog (Sep 6, 2011)

done and done!


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## elfman (Sep 6, 2011)

I'll join the fantasy league. I'm really having trouble finding places to watch the matches. If I miss the England game there's going to be riots I tell ye!


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## flypanam (Sep 6, 2011)

Right I'll do the fanatsy league. Howver despite apperances to suggest otherwise I don't have much time. So to keep this quick...

How do I do it?


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Sep 6, 2011)

OK I'll have a go. I know close to fuck all about rugby so if any of you lot lose to me you should be ashamed of yourselves.


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## gabi (Sep 6, 2011)

its much harder than the football one as i really dont know any players outside the all blacks and the poms.

theres a south african called chiliboy tho so hes gone right into my starting XV.


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## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Sep 6, 2011)

On the other hand there's no values so you've no need to balance the team with some Canadian or something just to get the players you want in, like you sometimes need to with the football. So everyone can put Dan Carter in their team.


----------



## gabi (Sep 6, 2011)

dont seem to be able to make your goalkicker your captain. which is a bit shit.


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## flypanam (Sep 6, 2011)

Done. I'm happy with my team!


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## flypanam (Sep 6, 2011)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> On the other hand there's no values so you've no need to balance the team with some Canadian or something just to get the players you want in, like you sometimes need to with the football. So everyone can put Dan Carter in their team.



Nah I've put Cooper in instead, good rugby, mad skillz and a good line in robbed goods.


----------



## bendeus (Sep 7, 2011)

Bakkies Botha a major doubt for the Wales game.

Heh


----------



## treefrog (Sep 7, 2011)

flypanam said:


> Nah I've put Cooper in instead, good rugby, mad skillz and a good line in robbed goods.


I can't take him seriously after seeing his weird little pre-kick finger-dance.


----------



## flypanam (Sep 7, 2011)

treefrog said:


> I can't take him seriously after seeing his weird little pre-kick finger-dance.



I don't think his mum takes him seriously either...moving house after the last world cup, not telling him and him having to break into a pad to get some kip. Not to mention being born in Tokorua and sending him to school in Aus. That woman has had it rough.


----------



## flypanam (Sep 7, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Bakkies Botha a major doubt for the Wales game.
> 
> Heh



Mike Phillips is dissapointed after the Lions love in.

Seriously I've heard that NZ Herald ain't to happy with the AB selections, saying the wings are mediocre (they are) and Mils is 'A static fullback' is this Chris Ratsomething at it again. If it is, he may just have a point. I'm not impressed with Kevin M, Brad Thorne, Cowen and the wings. Mils is excellent though what do you Kiwi think?


----------



## treefrog (Sep 7, 2011)

Mils is always a safe pair of hands in a test IMO, not flash but has a great work rate and pulls his weight.

The Herald's a comic book, it's always frothing about something and was always going to find something to whine about in the selection. I think Henry's been pretty shrewd here, Tonga aren't a huge threat to the ABs overall but they'll be out to play a physical full-on game and take a couple of scalps if they can. The Tongan fanbase here is IMMENSE and very vocal so the Tongans will be looking to make a real spectacle for the opening match. It'll be an entertaining game but the ABs will take it I reckon.


----------



## gabi (Sep 7, 2011)

theyve gone for a bonkers selection for the first game. non'u hasnt been played centre in years and kahui has never played on the wing as far as i know.

mils not in the side. not even the bench.


----------



## flypanam (Sep 7, 2011)

Dagg is awesome and Kiwi mates of mine have predicted that Mils will sit out the opener. Kahui has played on the wing for both Waikato and the Chiefs. He is a seriously talented yet injury prone player, he is far better than that cuntface Guilford and Cory Jane. Nonu has played at 13 before again for Wellington and Th' Canes. From the look of the team Henry is expecting a Battle Royale from the Tongans. And why not the Tongans will play for pride not only for those at home but for those in Otara and surrounds. Morningside4life.


----------



## London_Calling (Sep 8, 2011)

I presume Sky have this tournament  - highlights on terrestrial tv?


----------



## callumgilhooly (Sep 8, 2011)

London_Calling said:


> I presume Sky have this tournament - highlights on terrestrial tv?


Nope. Terrestrial have all the matches live. All on ITV 1 or ITV4


----------



## London_Calling (Sep 8, 2011)

Oh, that's a relief. Thang yew. Oh, ITV..


----------



## gabi (Sep 8, 2011)

Lookin forward to a bit of this sort of thing


----------



## bendeus (Sep 8, 2011)

London_Calling said:


> Oh, that's a relief. Thang yew. Oh, ITV..



Their coverage of the last RWC was pwp. One-eyed, steaming defacation. They should stick to the X-Factor.


----------



## bendeus (Sep 8, 2011)

gabi said:


> Lookin forward to a bit of this sort of thing




Big Jonah's natural heir and successor wears an England shirt, and he's called Matt Bananaman.


----------



## flypanam (Sep 8, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Their coverage of the last RWC was pwp. One-eyed, steaming defacation. They should stick to the X-Factor.



True it was terrible. How stuart barnes is rated as a credible commentator is beyond belief.
The only saving grace was Murray Mexted accidentely throwing the word 'Poms' in and/or digressing to talking about which vintage he had supped last night/that day.
Look at the delights we have instore for us now. Sean Fitzpatrick is okay. Lol is ROFLMAO, Pienaar one dimensional and Lynagh pretty good on back play. Makes me pine for the RTE coverage where they know how to put the boot in. Hook, Popey and king of the 'nice guys' Conor O'Shea.

Liked the article in the guardian about Everyone hating England...just not true I love 'em whan they lose.


----------



## flypanam (Sep 9, 2011)

Tonga by 7


----------



## 100% masahiko (Sep 9, 2011)

Alright...I'm at work and have to watch this game.

Where is it streamed?


----------



## elfman (Sep 9, 2011)

Fucking nightmare this is... China is the worst place ever for watching rugby  All the online streams won't work here!!

For anyone that can access them, go here http://forum.wiziwig.eu/threads/59907-Rugby-World-Cup-2011-Streaming-Week1


----------



## flypanam (Sep 9, 2011)

Kahui doing well!


----------



## bendeus (Sep 9, 2011)

Sounds like ABs got a bit of a tuning up front, and that Clancy was the usual fucking shit out bottler he always is when it comes to favouring the perceived stronger side.

France will be fancying it up against them given how strong their tight five is


----------



## flypanam (Sep 9, 2011)

Tonga only really dominated when Tonga'uiha went off imo. Taumalolo who plays for the chiefs was excellent when he came on. There were a few hits from Tonga but not as many as I was hoping for.


----------



## gabi (Sep 9, 2011)

Easy win. But yeh, dodgy dodgy reffing.

And the worst TV coverage I've ever witnessed on ITV. Whoever the main commentator was, he was more interested in discussing the weather and the fact that one of the Tongan's physios is now based in Tonbridge fucking Wells. While there was serious action happening on the field. I'd actually prefer it was on sky, who might be able to afford a commentator who knows what a rugby ball looks like.

ohh. and why can't poms say 'Tonga' properly? Used to make make giggle when i was a youngun making my british born nan say it. she just couldn't do it.


----------



## teecee (Sep 9, 2011)

gabi said:


> Lookin forward to a bit of this sort of thing



And i'm looking forward to more of this sort of thing


----------



## gabi (Sep 9, 2011)

well.. the winner's definitely gonna be a tri-nations member.. could be you guys. but my money's on the aussies.


----------



## teecee (Sep 9, 2011)

gabi said:


> well.. the winner's definitely gonna be a tri-nations member.. could be you guys. but my money's on the aussies.


I'm going to wait for a few more games into the tournament before starting on predictions


----------



## gabi (Sep 9, 2011)

cant see a NH team fronting up to what was in some ways a NZ B team tonight let alone the first XV.

aussies are boiling nicely tho.


----------



## bendeus (Sep 9, 2011)

gabi said:


> cant see a NH team fronting up to what was in some ways a NZ B team tonight let alone the first XV.
> 
> aussies are boiling nicely tho.



I can see a number of NH teams fronting up to that pack. Four to be precise.


----------



## DRINK? (Sep 9, 2011)

Middle class men watching some fella kick a ball over a bar.

Bit like stamford bridge when Torres is playing


----------



## bendeus (Sep 9, 2011)

DRINK? said:


> Middle class men watching some fella kick a ball over a bar.
> 
> Bit like stamford bridge when Torres is playing



<============== Proletarian football forum that way, there's a good chap.


----------



## The Boy (Sep 9, 2011)

teecee said:


> And i'm looking forward to more of this sort of thing




And I'm looking forward to some more of this


----------



## gabi (Sep 9, 2011)

And so it begins 

NZ are damned if they do and damned if they dont really.


----------



## bendeus (Sep 9, 2011)

And I'm looking forward to absolutely none of this:


----------



## bendeus (Sep 9, 2011)

gabi said:


> And so it begins
> 
> NZ are damned if they do and damned if they dont really.



Precedent would probably fall on the 'damned if they don't' side


----------



## The Boy (Sep 9, 2011)

gabi said:


> And so it begins
> 
> NZ are damned if they do and damned if they dont really.



Don't be so precious, man.

I should also add, seeing as France will likely be meeting England or Argentina if they qualify for the quarter finals, I don't mind if we get pumped by the Hobbits in the pool stages.  Quite happy to beat them in the final instead.


----------



## gabi (Sep 9, 2011)

I'm not being precious.  McCaw and his crew are on a hiding to nothing. Even if they win it'll be a feeling there in NZ of 'well, about fucking time'. There won't be any particular joy really. just relief.

Graham Henry is much loathed by the kiwi public and winning the cup won't change that. If he loses.. well....


----------



## The Boy (Sep 9, 2011)

gabi said:


> Even if they win it'll be a feeling there in NZ of 'well, about fucking time'.



True.  It's hard to believe they ABs have never actually won a WC before.


----------



## teecee (Sep 9, 2011)

gabi said:


> I'm not being precious. McCaw and his crew are on a hiding to nothing. Even if they win it'll be a feeling there in NZ of 'well, about fucking time'. There won't be any particular joy really. just relief.
> 
> Graham Henry is much loathed by the kiwi public and winning the cup won't change that. If he loses.. well....



And if perchance they do win the refrain will change from "Chokers" to "They can only win at home" :-D


----------



## Belushi (Sep 9, 2011)

The Boy said:


> True. It's hard to believe they ABs have never actually won a WC before.



1987.


----------



## bendeus (Sep 9, 2011)

gabi said:


> I'm not being precious. McCaw and his crew are on a hiding to nothing. Even if they win it'll be a feeling there in NZ of 'well, about fucking time'. There won't be any particular joy really. just relief.
> 
> Graham Henry is much loathed by the kiwi public and winning the cup won't change that. If he loses.. well....



He'd be welcome back in Wales. You can have Gats


----------



## bendeus (Sep 9, 2011)

Belushi said:


> 1987.



Beat me to it


----------



## The Boy (Sep 9, 2011)

1987 doesn't count.  What with the best team in the world not being invited


----------



## gabi (Sep 9, 2011)

i agree 1987 doesnt really count. different (amateur) sport in those days. i'd argue '91 doesnt really either.


----------



## bendeus (Sep 9, 2011)

Fuck that. If it was Wales who'd won it in 1987 you can be damn sure we'd think it counted.

*sigh* typical Kiwi arrogance


----------



## flypanam (Sep 9, 2011)

Yeah be proud you've got one. Our proudest record is getting beat by Australia in Dublin in a quarter final. And we wear that with pride. Gordon Hamilton is a total lege.


----------



## gabi (Sep 9, 2011)

not arrogance. our captain went back to his job as a fucking accountant the monday after the final.. that's a different world, a different sport


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Sep 9, 2011)

The Boy said:


> 1987 doesn't count. What with the best team in the world not being invited


Are you referring to Apartheid South Africa?


----------



## bendeus (Sep 9, 2011)

gabi said:


> not arrogance. our captain went back to his job as a fucking accountant the monday after the final.. that's a different world, a different sport



What? You don't think rugby counted before it went professional? Feck me, average matchday attendance in Wales in the days before you boys opened up the floodgates by accepting cash on the side was way, way higher than it is now, and fans were just as passionate and knowledgeable.


----------



## gabi (Sep 9, 2011)

The current Canadian team would probably beat the '87 all blacks. thats how different it is.


----------



## bendeus (Sep 9, 2011)

By what yardstick are you judging that difference? Was the game any less entertaining, exciting or passionately played and watched? I can't really see what point you're making, tbh, Gabi.

Anyways, good article here about the '87 world cup, which incidentally is fairly compementary about you bunch of choking fairy dancers:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2011/sep/03/rugby-world-cup-20112


----------



## teecee (Sep 9, 2011)

bendeus said:


> By what yardstick are you judging that difference? Was the game any less entertaining, exciting or passionately played and watched? I can't really see what point you're making, tbh, Gabi.
> 
> Anyways, good article here about the '87 world cup, which incidentally is fairly compementary about you bunch of choking fairy dancers:
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2011/sep/03/rugby-world-cup-20112


Must admit I preferred the old school approach to the game, professionalism has brought in too much razmatazz and now each games has all sorts of crap before hand dictated by advertising and sponsors and while the athleticism and skill of the players has improved I'm not sure the enjoyment/passion factor has changed that much, nut then again attendances to games seems to ahve risen so maybe I'm just a fogey


----------



## gabi (Sep 9, 2011)

bendeus - just that the sports are unrecognizable from each other now.

one example, i was watching the lineout today remembering when i used to play and 'lifting' was a cardinal sin, now its a key part of the game. other than massive rule changes like that, its the sheer athleticism as a result of these guys being able to work out 7 days a week. it resembles the NFL more than the rugby played back in the day...

oh.. and 'fairy dancing'? whats that?


----------



## teecee (Sep 9, 2011)

gabi said:


> bendeus - just that the sports are unrecognizable from each other now.
> 
> one example, i was watching the lineout today remembering when i used to play and 'lifting' was a cardinal sin, now its a key part of the game. other than massive rule changes like that, its the sheer athleticism as a result of these guys being able to work out 7 days a week. it resembles the NFL more than the rugby played back in the day...
> 
> oh.. and 'fairy dancing'? whats that?



And remember when you could hold the ball on the ground in the tackle, but then the other team wer e also allowed to ruck it out , now that was fun rugby to play :-D

I was once almost sent off for rucking a ball out once - but then I was playing five a side football at Spitafields


----------



## flypanam (Sep 9, 2011)

Sorry to interject, it's the same game, that has re-invented itself. The biggest loss to rugby is the concept of a game for all sizes. It plainly isn't anymore. The fat kids will no longer be propping up a scrum. Thats a shame but alot of the skills that JPR Williams, Frank Bunce and Brian O'Dricoll had/have remained the same. I think the ethos of the club game remain the same. The players even pro's are fairly rooted inthe community in which they live. At the end of the day Rugby is a community game even with professionalism. Long may it be so.


----------



## bendeus (Sep 9, 2011)

gabi said:


> bendeus - just that the sports are unrecognizable from each other now.
> 
> one example, i was watching the lineout today remembering when i used to play and 'lifting' was a cardinal sin, now its a key part of the game. other than massive rule changes like that, its the sheer athleticism as a result of these guys being able to work out 7 days a week. it resembles the NFL more than the rugby played back in the day...
> 
> oh.. and 'fairy dancing'? whats that?



Yeah. The game is more physical, more aggressive and has tighter margins. Players are bigger and fitter, there's less room for error, defences are better-marshalled and it appears to be less open. Equally, you can no longer ruck people out of the way (something that McCaw could really, really do with on occasion) and scrums are no longer the solid platform they were.

None of this actually means that the game is better, more entertaining or enthralling. In fact, the opposite seems to be the case. Maybe I'm looking at the whole thing with rose-tinted specs but the rugby of yesteryear looked every bit as entertaining as it does today - it had the same ability to thrill and excite, and demonstrated the same incredible balance of skill and power. Tell me that this doesnt' have everything you'd ever want:



Fairy dancers? Erm......


----------



## gabi (Sep 9, 2011)

Ah.. the haka..

Something I'd never expect a welshman to understand tbf. Much as we can't understand how you consider your anthem(sssss, oh and then another couple for good measure) to be 'music'


----------



## bendeus (Sep 9, 2011)

flypanam said:


> Sorry to interject, it's the same game, that has re-invented itself. The biggest loss to rugby is the concept of a game for all sizes. It plainly isn't anymore. The fat kids will no longer be propping up a scrum. Thats a shame but alot of the skills that JPR Williams, Frank Bunce and Brian O'Dricoll had/have remained the same. I think the ethos of the club game remain the same. The players even pro's are fairly rooted inthe community in which they live. At the end of the day Rugby is a community game even with professionalism. Long may it be so.



Presactly.

Rugby is becoming far more homogenised, with rank after rank of identikit, massive, athletic bastards capable of interchanging between lock and wing. Give me Serge Blanco, Barry John or Shane (whose like I doubt we'll see again) over Bananaman, Sonny Bill Williams or Jamie Roberts any day of the week.

It _is, _however, still rooted in community, and remains something that the fatties and the little kids can still get involved in, whether or not they end up becoming professionals.


----------



## bendeus (Sep 9, 2011)

gabi said:


> Ah.. the haka..
> 
> Something I'd never expect a welshman to understand tbf. Much as we can't understand how you consider your anthem(sssss, oh and then another couple for good measure) to be 'music'



I don't really understand how it was regarded as so unimportant that you dropped it entirely for about a decade, but how it has now miraculously become so important again, perhaps on the back of it being the cornerstone of Nike's sponsorship, that you lot feel it gives you the right to dictate to other teams how they should behave in their own stadia.


----------



## gabi (Sep 9, 2011)

have u been to new zealand?


----------



## bendeus (Sep 9, 2011)

Nah, mate. Got enough sheep for my needs here, thanks.


----------



## gabi (Sep 9, 2011)

the haka's not nothing to do with sponsorship. its something we're brought up with. every school has their own, altho we all learn ka mate. im sure im gonna be called 'precious' for pointing this out but the ignorance surrounding it from NH rugger fans (except the french bizarrely) does irritate/amuse


----------



## bendeus (Sep 9, 2011)

So if it's so important why did NZ stop doing it for around a decade between the '70s and '84 when it seemed to be readopted? Surely something of such massive cultural significance would have been missed when NZ's ambassadors to the outside world stopped doing it? Was there an outcry? That clip from '73 looks to me like they didn't give a fuck - they all look slightly embarrassed, and can't even be bothered doing it in time.

It's precious because you insist it has to be done on your terms. You dictate when it happens, how it happens and how teams are supposed to respond to it, even in their home stadia. If anyone deviates from this, they have, apparently, 'offended the elders', and are the targets of opprobrium.

Me, I just see it as a cynical attempt at gaining a psychological edge over the opposition in a manner than cannot be countered or questioned, because it's wrapped in cultural sensitivity and cod spiritualism, and serves the purpose of keeping the paymasters at Nike happy, too. Win-win.


----------



## The Boy (Sep 9, 2011)

Christ, I don't remember my '1987 doesn't count' troll being quite so succesful four years ago 

Anyway, have to agree with whoever said that rugby has lost something through professionalism.  Don't suppose the PEDs have helped either...


----------



## gabi (Sep 10, 2011)

bendeus said:


> So if it's so important why did NZ stop doing it for around a decade between the '70s and '84 when it seemed to be readopted? Surely something of such massive cultural significance would have been missed when NZ's ambassadors to the outside world stopped doing it? Was there an outcry? That clip from '73 looks to me like they didn't give a fuck - they all look slightly embarrassed, and can't even be bothered doing it in time.
> 
> It's precious because you insist it has to be done on your terms. You dictate when it happens, how it happens and how teams are supposed to respond to it, even in their home stadia. If anyone deviates from this, they have, apparently, 'offended the elders', and are the targets of opprobrium.
> 
> Me, I just see it as a cynical attempt at gaining a psychological edge over the opposition in a manner than cannot be countered or questioned, because it's wrapped in cultural sensitivity and cod spiritualism, and serves the purpose of keeping the paymasters at Nike happy, too. Win-win.



Well, then you're a dick.


----------



## Superdupastupor (Sep 10, 2011)

OH dear; Scotland getting beat by Romainia- 10mins to go


----------



## Superdupastupor (Sep 10, 2011)

34-24 in the end, phew 

never in doubt


----------



## bendeus (Sep 10, 2011)

gabi said:


> Well, then you're a dick.



Way to go, champ!


----------



## friedaweed (Sep 10, 2011)

kinell england are shit here.


----------



## QueenOfGoths (Sep 10, 2011)

friedaweed said:


> kinell england are shit here.


Its's woeful isn't it. Jonny Wilkinson has been awful - missing 4 in a row is not great.


----------



## Pingu (Sep 10, 2011)

england looking good against the argies... NOT

wrt to the old days vs the new.

the game these days at international and premier level is very different. the players are much fitter and yeah its lost some of its grass roots charm. BUT the games can stil be very entertaining and at lower club level you still get a lot of the old style players (fat bloke = prop, skinny fast bloke = winger etc etc.).

the turning point for me was seeng the all blacks 3rd team play the north of england at anfiled many years ago. even for their 3rd team the all black forwards were head and shoulders fitter and faster than the north of englands backs. this ws just before the game turned fully professional and the difference in the teams was massive. if tems wanted to win then they had to be able to compete with that and the only way to do that was to allow them to train all the time. you cant do that if yo are holding down a day job too so the game changed . Lets face it clubs were doing it anyhow by employeing key players as "barmen"  etc.

yes its changed the game as have some of the rule changes but its still the same basic game at heart.


----------



## QueenOfGoths (Sep 10, 2011)

Thank fuck for that! Thought they haven't played well tbf


----------



## Pingu (Sep 10, 2011)

hope england play like that against sa/nz/aus


----------



## Pingu (Sep 10, 2011)

Jeremey Guscott said:
			
		

> Wilkinson will keep the scoreboard ticking over which could be crucial against Argentina, especially if the game gets a bit stodgy, with little flow to it.



... meh


----------



## friedaweed (Sep 10, 2011)

Thought they were well lucky. Poor Wilco couldn't hit a cows arse with a banjo today.

Still reckon Ireland will win it


----------



## Pingu (Sep 10, 2011)

mind you I reckon SA will tear us a new arse tomorrow...


----------



## aylee (Sep 10, 2011)

I didn't see the Scotland game, but of the teams that have played so far who are serious candidates for the quarters (New Zealand, England, Scotland), none have really set the tournament alight.  New Zealand played well yesterday in patches, but they let Tonga back into the game in the second half when they were expected to run in 60-70 points.  England were awful, and it sounds as if the Scots could well have lost to Romania save for those last two tries.


----------



## gabi (Sep 10, 2011)

the second half of the NZ game was tough. but proper rugby. must've been a helluva team talk. the kiwi backline was tearing them up.


----------



## bendeus (Sep 10, 2011)

ITV hit new lows during the commentary today. Vickery, in particular, dredged the barrel to hitherto unseen depths. I particularly enjoyed the "C'MON ENGLAAANDD!" shouted at full volume during some of the sparse moments of Saes ascendency (clue: you're a national broadcaster, and therefore are meant to at least pretend to be impartial), as well as the "OHHH, DELICIOUS!" followed by a little man-grunt when Jonny Jeebus slotted one of his early kicks.

His one-eyed claims that the Argies should have been penalised off the park, when it was the English who were infringing at the breakdown almost entirely without sanction for three-quarters of the match, were also risible. I was also forced into a wry smile when the entire commentary team chose to ignore the two cynical and citeable offences committed by Lawes (the late 'tackle' on the kicker in which he made no attempt to use his arms, and deliberately dropping the knees into Ledesma's head), which should see him miss a few games if there's any justice.

Usual reffing fails at scrumtime as well. Cole seems to have picked up the almost Sheridanesque ability to cheat like fuck all day long and not be pinged for it. When he wasn't driving under his oppo and going straight to the floor, he was binding illegally. Repeat of his performance in Cardiff when he bored in all day long without sanction. Nice beard, but I'm yet to be convinced he'd be any good as a prop if a decent referee actually spent half a second observing his 'technique'.

Oh, and the English backline are a lobotomised bunch of treacle-wading, orc roiders with all the creativity of a sea cucumber. So they'll probably make the final.


----------



## bendeus (Sep 10, 2011)

Pingu said:


> mind you I reckon SA will tear us a new arse tomorrow...



Have faith.


----------



## gabi (Sep 10, 2011)

I actually thought the ITV commentary was better today. Better than the NZ game anyway. At least they talked about rugby rather than what they did last night, and oohhhhh. what a great night they all had, meanwhile theres action on the field but who cares!!! 'what a laugh we had last night'..

Obv the commentary on an england game's gonna be one-eyed tho... get eddie butler involved and hey presto.


----------



## bendeus (Sep 10, 2011)

gabi said:


> I actually thought the ITV commentary was better today. Better than the NZ game anyway. At least they talked about rugby rather than *what they did last night, and oohhhhh. what a great night they all had, meanwhile theres action on the field but who cares!!! 'what a laugh we had last night'..*



That really pisses me off. Utterly disrespectful.



> Obv the commentary on an england game's gonna be one-eyed tho... get eddie butler involved and hey presto.


Have you listened to Marshall commentating at all? His analysis, balance and insight is a much a pleasure as was his scrum-halfing.


----------



## gabi (Sep 10, 2011)

bendy, i've no idea when you're being sarcastic and not  but no, ive not heard, (i assume you mean) justin marshall commentating. but i bet its shit.

there are some really good commentators in nz. sadly one (the best) died a coupla weeks ago..

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/article.cfm?c_id=80&objectid=10747296

i miss that lovely mental scotsman who used be on the beeb, who i believe has passed away too.


----------



## bendeus (Sep 10, 2011)

gabi said:


> bendy, i've no idea when you're being sarcastic and not  but no, ive not heard, (i assume you mean) justin marshall commentating. but i bet its shit.
> 
> there are some really good commentators in nz. sadly one (the best) died a coupla weeks ago..
> 
> ...



No, really. JM is a wonderful, balanced analyst. I think being a SH, and therefore having a strong connection to both forward and back play really helps. He really understands what's happening around the pitch.
E2A: I'd imagine you're talking about the legendary Bill McClaren rather than the Odious Andy Nichol


----------



## Belushi (Sep 11, 2011)

On the edge of my seat here, come on Cymru!


----------



## Belushi (Sep 11, 2011)

Gutted to lose by one point, but as great performance against South Africa.


----------



## Threshers_Flail (Sep 11, 2011)

How the fuck we lost that I don't know.


----------



## gabi (Sep 11, 2011)

South africa were fucking terrible. They're a bonkers side. sublime one week, awful the next. they'll still probably win the cup tho.


----------



## Limejuice (Sep 11, 2011)

Best I've seen Wales play for along time. In the second half they were imperious at times.


----------



## Pingu (Sep 11, 2011)

well now...

ok so we lost but nice display. just need to make sure we fucking win games when we play like that now


----------



## friedaweed (Sep 11, 2011)

Magnificent from Wales very unlucky imho.


----------



## bendeus (Sep 11, 2011)

Threshers_Flail said:


> How the fuck we lost that I don't know.



I do.


----------



## bendeus (Sep 11, 2011)

Belushi said:


> Gutted to lose by one point, but as great performance against South Africa.



We won by two. Unfortunately the match officials didn't notice.


----------



## gabi (Sep 11, 2011)

lulz at bendy whinging about barnes... 

great ref eh?


----------



## bendeus (Sep 11, 2011)

It was a little disappointing that he failed to go to the TMO for a kick that was clearly over. The fact that the two touch judges weren't actually following the flight of the ball is somewhat irksome, also.

Barnes was crap today, but still better than the shameful SH reffing shown by Lawrence.

The outcome of games these days seem to be more about the moods, whims and mistakes of the officials as opposed to the skill and strength of the players. That isn't good.


----------



## Infidel Castro (Sep 11, 2011)

Is this a good time to say that I predicted P'land would be an international a couple of years back?  Bendy, you thought I was nuts.  Well, the proof is in the pudding.  He's going well.  Head-up rugby.  Shame about his drop-goal effort, but what can you do.

Still so sick about today's loss.  We were better.  The mental step is still the next that needs taking though.  We dropped the intensity and almost froze at one point.  Reminds me of when Llanelli had Leicester on the ropes in the SF of Europe in the early days and fluffed it because they shat themselves as their minds were conditioned to be inferior to the English at that point.

Our lads still need to shed that mindset, and all it takes is a decent win.  Yet we're struggling to seal the deal.

If we fight through to the QF, we would likely face Aus.  Sickener.


----------



## Infidel Castro (Sep 11, 2011)

But we were class at times.  And good to see Roberts running his lines well and JD also finally looking like an attacking threat.

Warbs is incredible, Toby stepped up another level again.

I'm proud, but I still want to punch someone in the face.


----------



## flypanam (Sep 12, 2011)

Well, what can I say about Ireland:

WE WERE FUCKIN SHITE.

The weather played a factor, but Sexton is not made for internationals unless his mammy tucks him up the night before after he's gone home for his tea. D'arcy is finished and i'd say Luke Fitzgerald is pretty pissed. The one positive is that Tommy Bowe after a shaky start came good him and wee Keith were our only attacking threats. I'm hoping massively that Kidney is not stupid enough to play Ferris at 6 and O'Brien at 7, and that Kearney stops pulling the ears off his donkey and plays some rugby as the Ockers will rip us a new one. And we'll be the first ones home.*

Feel sorry for Wales. As for England: excelling in mediocrity. You'll do well. 

* my bile sources are pretty dried up after I saw that knob end Fuckley on the field against the States.


----------



## Red Faction (Sep 12, 2011)

flypanam said:


> my bile sources are pretty dried up after I saw that knob end Fuckley on the field against the States.[/SIZE]



I feel the same. 
Can't believe it took hI'm so long to bring on ROG. 
I accept the criticism that ROG doesn't mobilise the backline enough to play exciting expansive rugby, but I don't accept that they should be attempting that sort of game in lashing rain and billowing wind. 
Earls at centre. Trimble was very unlucky not to start. 
We'll get a tonking from the Aussies, get through our group and get tonked again in the knockout rounds. 
Knowing all this, I should probably stop watching now- but I reckon we'll make the rest of our group games real nail biters as we narrowly squeeze past Russia and (hopefully) Italy. 

I'd be very pleased as a Wales fan, all you have to do is meet the boks again in the final and set the record straight. ;-)


----------



## flypanam (Sep 12, 2011)

^^^
True RF, If I have an early wish list its for D'arcy to either a. get a not too serious injury which will sideline him for 6 months. b. That Kidney starts with McFadden at inside centre. I see what your saying about Earls but I'd play him on the wing, the poor lad has been moved around enough. Keep him in a position he knows well. There has been too much tinkering with this team. Almost makes you wish for EO'S and his concept of untouchables.


----------



## gabi (Sep 12, 2011)

im actually surprised barnes is reffing in a world cup in nz. can't be very comfortable for him. to say he's not well-liked there after 2007 would be quite an understatement. wonder if he'll get an all black game?


----------



## mattie (Sep 12, 2011)

bendeus said:


> I do.


 


You're a closet kiwi.


----------



## mattie (Sep 12, 2011)

bendeus said:


> ITV hit new lows during the commentary today. Vickery, in particular, dredged the barrel to hitherto unseen depths. I particularly enjoyed the "C'MON ENGLAAANDD!" shouted at full volume during some of the sparse moments of Saes ascendency (clue: you're a national broadcaster, and therefore are meant to at least pretend to be impartial), as well as the "OHHH, DELICIOUS!" followed by a little man-grunt when Jonny Jeebus slotted one of his early kicks.
> 
> His one-eyed claims that the Argies should have been penalised off the park, when it was the English who were infringing at the breakdown almost entirely without sanction for three-quarters of the match, were also risible. I was also forced into a wry smile when the entire commentary team chose to ignore the two cynical and citeable offences committed by Lawes (the late 'tackle' on the kicker in which he made no attempt to use his arms, and deliberately dropping the knees into Ledesma's head), which should see him miss a few games if there's any justice.
> 
> ...





You're on fire. I saw it with Spanish commentary, but didn't hold out much hope for ITV - I suspect it'll be usual rabble-rousing for the plastic fan, but I will say they're under no obligation to show any impartiality for a British team playing against Argentina.

As for the break-down, I think Vickery may have been referring to the way they entered rucks, if my choice of phrase is not too (ahem) _indelicate_, like exocet missiles. You can't arrive at a ruck in superman formation, sorry and all that. And I can't believe you've only just noticed that tight-heads don't generally observe the full complement of laws. Whatever next, 7s off their feet?

Lawes' tackle on the kicker looked like an attempt to rough up but was on the line of legality, his knee in the hooker's head less so - I understand that you want to block a potential pass back inside, but that was only ever going to end up badly. As, indeed, it did. Silly boy, and a citing is duly dispensed.

Anyway, stodgy stuff from England, Argentina showed great fire and fronted up excellently so lucky to get way with that.

As an aside, is there a new ball for this WC? I ask not only because Saint Jonny struggled, but so has every other kicker I've seen - Argentina left a dozen or more points on the paddock, and the placekicking in the Scotland/Romania game was dreadful.


----------



## mattie (Sep 12, 2011)

gabi said:


> im actually surprised barnes is reffing in a world cup in nz. can't be very comfortable for him. to say he's not well-liked there after 2007 would be quite an understatement. wonder if he'll get an all black game?



Unless we're saying we should listen to group whinges when selecting refs, I can't see why not.


----------



## mattie (Sep 12, 2011)

And you can never have enough Downfall parodies:



'A fucking Northwalian and a bloody Jack'

'We may now have to resort to that daft Fucking fairy Henson'.

'We'll have to cheat like new Zealand'


----------



## gabi (Sep 12, 2011)

mattie said:


> Unless we're saying we should listen to group whinges when selecting refs, I can't see why not.



Well, the IRB did actually make a formal apology to NZ for his performance in cardiff - so im surprised he's still reffing at such a high level tbh


----------



## flypanam (Sep 12, 2011)

He lost the position of an International ref the year after the Cardiff debacle. He got it back after they dropped some other Ref (why oh why can't they kill Steve Walsh?)

No the ball is not new, they have had it for 12 months. I think the ball maybe blown up too much as it looks pretty round. An over pressurised rugby ball does fly badly.


----------



## mattie (Sep 12, 2011)

gabi said:


> Well, the IRB did actually make a formal apology to NZ for his performance in cardiff - so im surprised he's still reffing at such a high level tbh



The IRB can cave to craven pressurising if they want.  I'd rather back refs and tell Henry to fuck right off, or better yet actually instruct refs to yellow-card McCaw at kick-off and save us all the needless lounging over the ball, off-sides and taking defenders out off the ball.

Yes, that's what I'd do if I ran the IRB.


----------



## editor (Sep 12, 2011)

FFS.
http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/12092011/58/world-cup-wales-cry-foul-penalty.html


----------



## The Boy (Sep 12, 2011)

gabi said:


> im actually surprised barnes is reffing in a world cup in nz. can't be very comfortable for him. to say he's not well-liked there after 2007 would be quite an understatement. wonder if he'll get an all black game?



To say the Keewees have nobody but themselves to blame for yet another choke in 2007 is an understatement.


----------



## gabi (Sep 12, 2011)

That's not entirely true. They would've won that match in Cardiff were it not for sub-standard reffing. Much as the Welsh would've done on the weekend. Given the circumstances the Welsh reaction is actually totally admirable. I'd be livid.


----------



## The Boy (Sep 12, 2011)

gabi said:


> That's not entirely true. They would've won that match in Cardiff were it not for sub-standard reffing. Much as the Welsh would've done on the weekend. Given the circumstances the Welsh reaction is actually totally admirable. I'd be livid.



They would have won the game if any keewee had the nous to take the drop goal.  The fact they didn't proves that they wouldn't have won the match regardless of the reffing, or if they had kept playing for another two hours.  In short, the better team on the day won.


----------



## elfman (Sep 13, 2011)

In the end I got to see the England match, even though they played shit it was still amazing I started to think I might miss it. I had to travel 1 hour on a bus to go to an English bar in a city with the help of one my very beautiful colleagues  I even got to eat English food, which was a bonus 

Also, there is one channel that has sporadic RWC coverage but I'm still trying to find out exactly which games they will show...


----------



## flypanam (Sep 13, 2011)

I feel yr pain Elfman, if i was away and couldn't see any of it I blow my nut. Fuck I think Monday was a shit day cos their was no rugby on.


----------



## flypanam (Sep 13, 2011)

editor said:


> FFS.
> http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/12092011/58/world-cup-wales-cry-foul-penalty.html



I'm sorry but the image proves nothing. From the TV all I could see was the ball passing above the post. if there was an array of angles then there would be conclusive proof! Bendeus will probably have my guts here but the only problem Wales really had was switching off in defence. Shane Williams did not fill the hole in the line which allowed Hougaard to score.

The miss of the drop attempt was crucial too. I think what I'm saying is that the incident did not decide the game. The postive is if you play like that for the rest of the round, you are not going to be worried by Australia.


----------



## elfman (Sep 13, 2011)

flypanam said:


> I feel yr pain Elfman, if i was away and couldn't see any of it I blow my nut. Fuck I think Monday was a shit day cos their was no rugby on.


Thanks 

I think I've worked out how I can watch all the England games now. I've found a TV schedule for a local Chinese sports channel which I can translate to English and it has some games on. And if the England game isn't on there then I will take the bus to the nearby city. Luckily all the England games seem to be on decent times for me so far, so should all be fine... hopefully...


----------



## gabi (Sep 13, 2011)

You wont have too many more england games to watch, dont worry.


----------



## flypanam (Sep 13, 2011)

Just checked the fantasy table. After first round I'm top! And 23rd in the Ireland league!!!!


----------



## King Biscuit Time (Sep 13, 2011)

That image doesn't prove anything. The ball could have been kicked from one touchline to the other and you'd still end up with a photo like that if you took it at the right time.


----------



## elfman (Sep 13, 2011)

flypanam said:


> Just checked the fantasy table. After first round I'm top! And 23rd in the Ireland league!!!!


I'm bottom  I should of spent more time checking the starting line ups before the matches... oh well


----------



## elfman (Sep 13, 2011)

gabi said:


> You wont have too many more england games to watch, dont worry.



I'll remind you of this comment when we win the World Cup


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 13, 2011)

bendeus said:


> ITV hit new lows during the commentary today. Vickery, in particular, dredged the barrel to hitherto unseen depths. I particularly enjoyed the "C'MON ENGLAAANDD!" shouted at full volume during some of the sparse moments of Saes ascendency (clue: you're a national broadcaster, and therefore are meant to at least pretend to be impartial),



You missed out his first observation of the day when he informed us that "If they are to win today, England are going to have to score points against this Argentine side"  Cheers for that Phil, thanks for bringing your years of experience to the commentary booth.  In fairness, he's a half-wit who should be no where near commentary.  Its a shame the BBC don't do the World Cup I like their set up, well Moore excluded of course.


----------



## Gingerman (Sep 14, 2011)

Good result for the Cannucks,beat Tonga 20-25


----------



## flypanam (Sep 14, 2011)

Gingerman said:


> Good result for the Cannucks,beat Tonga 20-25



That blindside flanker is a beast! Great win.


----------



## gabi (Sep 14, 2011)

Only saw the opening few mins of the scot-georgia game but Georgia looked decent. Must be a curious little rugby scene there..


----------



## gabi (Sep 14, 2011)

any truth in this from the guardian's coverage? i sometimes think so. the rules really are so arcane. i reckon the commentators have no idea either sometimes, at scrums anyway.



> "I am convinced that the respect shown to referees in rugby (as opposed to association football) is due mostly to the fact that none of the players really understand the rules either, so they have to accept whatever the referee says," writes Kat Petersen. "That was certainly my approach when I played."
> "Even allowing for the fact that Rugby Union has no 'rules' (they're called 'laws'), Richie McCaw manages to get along without most of them quite well - you're in good company," writes Luke Williams.


----------



## bendeus (Sep 14, 2011)

gabi said:


> Only saw the opening few mins of the scot-georgia game but Georgia looked decent. Must be a curious little rugby scene there..



They were more competitive in the last WC, IIRC. Think it was Ireland that they gave a whole heap of problems to. Similar to the Argies in that they regard the 'glamour' positions as being in the tight five. Always field hard-as-nails packs, most of whom play in France at a high level.


----------



## bendeus (Sep 14, 2011)

Scotland are fucking excrement, by the way.


----------



## gabi (Sep 14, 2011)

The georgian backs looked fairly tidy too in the few mins i saw. Scotland topping the group tho


----------



## bendeus (Sep 14, 2011)

Teaboy said:


> You missed out his first observation of the day when he informed us that "If they are to win today, England are going to have to score points against this Argentine side" Cheers for that Phil, thanks for bringing your years of experience to the commentary booth. In fairness, he's a half-wit who should be no where near commentary. Its a shame the BBC don't do the World Cup I like their set up, well Moore excluded of course.



Moore's big advantage is that he is one of the best analysts of the scrum (and forward play in general) out there. He doesn't miss a trick, even though he does err towards the Cyclopean.

You'd have thought Vickery would at least bring some insight into the dark arts of the engine room to the table, but no, he just creates ever longer streams of jizz bunting with which to festoon the commentary box.


----------



## bendeus (Sep 14, 2011)

flypanam said:


> I'm sorry but the image proves nothing. From the TV all I could see was the ball passing above the post. if there was an array of angles then there would be conclusive proof! Bendeus will probably have my guts here but the only problem Wales really had was switching off in defence. Shane Williams did not fill the hole in the line which allowed Hougaard to score.
> 
> The miss of the drop attempt was crucial too. I think what I'm saying is that the incident did not decide the game. The postive is if you play like that for the rest of the round, you are not going to be worried by Australia.



Aye. We should have put the game to bed. Crucial missed kicks plus something like 8 knock-ons in the oppo 22 did for us. I'm so fucking tired of seeing us fall 'just' short with SH opposition. There's no doubt that a lot of Wales' problems are up top. We are frequently psychologically defeated before we take to the pitch. I think this showed in the last 10 minutes, when we were ragged, disjointed and suddenly pedestrian, and when our critical decision making let us down badly.

Nevertheless, Barnes dropped a bollock by failing to refer the kick, and so did the touch judges by failing to flag it over (Steyn, I think, told Gatland that it was over in the tunnel at half time).

Ah well, in a way the defeat isn't so bad, because it now puts us into the non-New Zealand side of the draw if we win the rest of our matches. Australia or Ireland in the QFs, England or France in the SFs. To be honest, after the SA game there's only one of those teams that I would have serious doubts about us being able to beat if we play to our strengths.


----------



## gabi (Sep 14, 2011)

ach, just read that Carter's injured. that could be that for the ABs.


----------



## bendeus (Sep 14, 2011)

gabi said:


> ach, just read that Carter's injured. that could be that for the ABs.



Yup. You're fucked without DC.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Sep 14, 2011)

They're hoping he's only going to miss the Japan match, aren't they?


> "The key thing is that Daniel had been recovering well from a stiff lower back," said All Blacks doctor Deb Robinson.
> "However, he pulled up sore at an indoor training session this morning so we have made the decision not to risk him for the Japan match and we will aim to have him back fully training next week in preparation for the France Test."


----------



## flypanam (Sep 14, 2011)

gabi said:


> Only saw the opening few mins of the scot-georgia game but Georgia looked decent. Must be a curious little rugby scene there..



Rugby is meant to be like their native/trad sport Lelo Burti so probably mushrooming in popularity.

bendeus, I think your right, The Welsh do look like they need to toughen up mentally. However I'm putting my money on Wales for the six nations.

Right World Cup was nice seeing you but I'm afraid Ireland has to say goodbye...

*Ireland (v Australia):* R Kearney, T Bowe B O’Driscoll, G D’Arcy, K Earls, J Sexton,E Reddan,C Healy , R Best, M Ross, D O’Callaghan , P O’Connell, S Ferris , S O’Brien , J Heaslip.
*Replacements * J Flannery T Court D Ryan D Leamy C Murray R O’Gara A Trimble

Call me stooopid but O'Brien at 7 wtf? D'Arcy again at inside???? My nan is threatening to get on a plane and do some coaching herself. Can the IRB just deny Ireland entry to the WC in future. I can't take the pain any more.


----------



## bendeus (Sep 14, 2011)

D'you think Deccie's days are numbered, Flypanam? That side should, at the very least, be competitive. IIRC you've been properly competitive once (vs. the Orcs) in over a year.


----------



## flypanam (Sep 14, 2011)

I do. I think the IRFU made the same mistake that they made last time, by offering Kidney a contract extention for another 2 years before the Cup has even started. Proving once again that job security does not have to be based on results. shit, coaching Ireland is like being a CEO at a bank.

The clamour is getting louder for Schmidt to get the job, I personally don't think he's the man for it. Though he should have some imput into coaching the backline.

I just don't understand playing so many out of form players. O'callaghan, D'arcy and Sexton are all way under club/provincal form. It seem ludicrious that D'arcy who has not adapted his game is still at the position of what is second distributor when McFadden has proven he has the tempremnet and ability to play 12. I've a horrible feeling the Ockers will do us by 14 plus.


----------



## flypanam (Sep 14, 2011)

Oh I should have added Heaslip to the list of out of form players but I suspect he could turn it round!

Whinge over.

Blind hope takes over.


----------



## elfman (Sep 14, 2011)

flypanam said:


> I've a horrible feeling the Ockers will do us by 14 plus.



As much as I'd love Ireland to win the game I can see them losing by more than 14 too. Ireland just don't do World Cups...

It does seem strange that in between World Cups you seem to get Ireland and Wales doing well, then when the World Cup comes England or France usually do best out of the 6 nations.


----------



## bendeus (Sep 14, 2011)

I would really love Ireland to beat the Shackledraggers. Easier path to the final for Wales, innit.


----------



## bendeus (Sep 14, 2011)

Although news that riverdancing hooker, Geraldus Flannerus, is out of the WC with a calf injury doesn't inspire confidence.

Gouging fuck, Damian Varley, is flying out to replace him.


----------



## flypanam (Sep 14, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Although news that riverdancing hooker, Geraldus Flannerus, is out of the WC with a calf injury doesn't inspire confidence.
> 
> Gouging fuck, Damian Varley, is flying out to replace him.



No it don't given that one of the arts of hooking is throwing the ball straight we are not exactly blessed in that department. Flannery could at least make a decent stab at it.  Mind you Stephen Moore couldn't hit a barn door from five cm with his piss let along throw into the line so honours equal there between him and Rory. Rory is a better scrummager though.

On the other hand I'm well disposed to Sean Cronin (apart from his throwing) as he does carry well and makes some decent steals.  Could go well against the 'South Africans that got away with it'


----------



## 1927 (Sep 14, 2011)

Saw an article the other day where it stated that Tendai Mtawarira had detroyed the Lions front row on the last tour, I wanted to correct them and tell them that in fact he had no such thing but had merely destroyed Vickery. Adam Jones commented after the game when he came on as a replacement that he couldnt really understand why he was called the beast as he hadnt been bothered by him at all!


----------



## bendeus (Sep 14, 2011)

Adam was giving the Beast a torrid time on Sunday, also. Adam is, however, the best scrummaging tighthead in the world, so this should come as no surprise.


----------



## 1927 (Sep 14, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Adam was giving the Beast a torrid time on Sunday, also. Adam is, however, the best scrummaging tighthead in the world, so this should come as no surprise.



Thing is with that bloody hairstyle he aint never gonna look like a beast!lol


----------



## 1927 (Sep 14, 2011)

Respect to Francois Piennar mind he said that if Wales play like that we have the capability to beat anyone in the world!


----------



## bendeus (Sep 14, 2011)

1927 said:


> Thing is with that bloody hairstyle he aint never gonna look like a beast!lol



A kind of shambling, wombley beast, maybe?


----------



## bendeus (Sep 14, 2011)

1927 said:


> Respect to Francois Piennar mind he said that if Wales play like that we have the capability to beat anyone in the world!



Anyone except South Africa, clearly


----------



## 1927 (Sep 14, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Anyone except South Africa, clearly



I think we had the ability to beat them, its the mindset that is lacking.


----------



## bendeus (Sep 14, 2011)

1927 said:


> I think we had the ability to beat them, its the mindset that is lacking.



Aye. That's the problem. We have, over the last decade, at times had the _capability _to beat anybody. Unfortunately, our record shows: NZ=0, SA=0, Aus=1.5


----------



## bendeus (Sep 15, 2011)

Mattie?




			
				Outraged Kiwi said:
			
		

> Of course, you’ll find copious England apologists who bang on endlessly about this being a sport that can be played in a variety of ways. And sure, it can. But none of those apologists has ever answered for me this simple question – which game would most people prefer to see? One rich in invention, craft and skill, a blur of movement, excitement and continuity that still retains immense physicality or one which resembles trench warfare from the First World War?
> 
> ‘My word we’ve had a good day, Sergeant; we’ve taken nine yards of enemy territory’ sort of thing.
> 
> ...



From here

Awesome ABE vitriol from our NZ chums, again.

He also goes on to say,



> It is undeniable that the All Blacks lost their way in the second half against Tonga. One reason for that was the ludicrous number of stoppages in the game allowed by Irish referee George Clancy. Someone has to do something about not tolerating that nonsense anymore and Steve Walsh made a good start in the France/Japan match on Saturday evening.



Fuck me! If he thinks that Clancy, like every other ref on earth, didn't give the ABs a comfy ride, particularly up front, during the game, and then compounds that by claiming that the worst referee in the world made a better fist of it (which he didn't), then he is clinically deluded and requires a powerful cocktail of antidepressants, antipsychotics and sedatives to see him through. Gabi, do you want to start up our annual 'chippiest rugby nation on earth' debate again

The gap between schadenfreude, hubris and hat eating is a narrow one. England could still win this.


----------



## gabi (Sep 15, 2011)

I think Barnes might object to being pipped to the 'worst ref in the world' by steve walsh. I mean Walsh at least knows that forward passes aren't allowed and that if a ball goes through the posts it's over.

Anyway - you've not linked to where you've taken that rant from. It's obv a bit over the top, but i think the basic point is true - the average neutral fan probably would rather watch Carter spinning it out to Williams etc than Steve Thompson gaining a yard or two before knocking it on. In saying that, England will probably make the final again and NZ won't.

edit.. oh i see you have actually linked it


----------



## gabi (Sep 15, 2011)

oh dear. dwarf-throwing poms.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/teams/england/5632162/Bar-owner-denies-Mike-Tindall-groping-claim


----------



## paulhackett (Sep 15, 2011)

Referee USA v Russia to USA skipper  'And you're getting my washing bill'


----------



## Geri (Sep 15, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Mattie?
> 
> From here
> 
> ...


Never seen an AB so rattled.


----------



## gabi (Sep 15, 2011)

Here's an English perspective on the fine flowing rugby on display the other day..

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2011/sep/12/rugby-world-cup-2011-england?INTCMP=SRCH



> England have no history of bringing imagination or creativity to the 15-man game and it was evident against Argentina that they are not about to start now. This was a horrible performance in every respect, from the challenges by Courtney Lawes and James Haskell that removed Gonzalo Tiesi from the tournament and put Felipe Contepomi out of Argentina's next match to the language used by Haskell when drawing the referee's attention to an alleged attempt to gouge his eyes, a complaint he later withdrew, putting his outburst down to "over-exuberance".
> 
> Would that even the tiniest hint of exuberance were detectable in the way the team play, because worst of all was the combination of tactical cynicism and a fundamental lack of inventiveness shown by a squad who have spent three-and-a-half years under the same coaching team and yet ended their opening match of the tournament giving routine explanations for the poverty of their performance.


----------



## The Boy (Sep 15, 2011)

gabi said:


> oh dear. dwarf-throwing poms.
> 
> http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/teams/england/5632162/Bar-owner-denies-Mike-Tindall-groping-claim



Hmmm.   My mate's bar had the English team in it on Sat.  Will check if there is any gossip.


----------



## Pingu (Sep 15, 2011)




----------



## gabi (Sep 15, 2011)

The Boy said:


> Hmmm. My mate's bar had the English team in it on Sat. Will check if there is any gossip.



man. some classy pics here..

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3815013/Mike-Tindall-gropes-blonde.html

how dumb are these guys?


----------



## flypanam (Sep 15, 2011)

paulhackett said:


> Referee USA v Russia to USA skipper 'And you're getting my washing bill'



Not exactly Rocky 4 was it!


----------



## flypanam (Sep 15, 2011)

gabi said:


> man. some classy pics here..
> 
> http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3815013/Mike-Tindall-gropes-blonde.html
> 
> how dumb are these guys?



Not really a big deal is it. Not like the first Time Jonno brought Mike Brown and the boys to Auckland and they engaged in a little 2/3 on 1 action and were accused of rape.


----------



## Idris2002 (Sep 15, 2011)

bendeus said:


> So if it's so important why did NZ stop doing it for around a decade between the '70s and '84 when it seemed to be readopted? Surely something of such massive cultural significance would have been missed when NZ's ambassadors to the outside world stopped doing it? Was there an outcry? That clip from '73 looks to me like they didn't give a fuck - they all look slightly embarrassed, and can't even be bothered doing it in time.
> 
> It's precious because you insist it has to be done on your terms. You dictate when it happens, how it happens and how teams are supposed to respond to it, even in their home stadia. If anyone deviates from this, they have, apparently, 'offended the elders', and are the targets of opprobrium.
> 
> Me, I just see it as a cynical attempt at gaining a psychological edge over the opposition in a manner than cannot be countered or questioned, because it's wrapped in cultural sensitivity and cod spiritualism, and serves the purpose of keeping the paymasters at Nike happy, too. Win-win.



Isn't this just the result of changes in Maori consciousness and interethnic politics in New Zealand?


----------



## bendeus (Sep 15, 2011)

I'd imagine it was a mixture of a number of factors, not least the one you've just pointed out. I'm just winding up Gabi, mind


----------



## bendeus (Sep 15, 2011)

flypanam said:


> Not exactly Rocky 4 was it!



Strange to see two tier three teams, and non-traditional rugby nations at that, with such, ahem, familiar coaching staff in Kingsley and EOS


----------



## gabi (Sep 16, 2011)

flypanam said:


> Not really a big deal is it. Not like the first Time Jonno brought Mike Brown and the boys to Auckland and they engaged in a little 2/3 on 1 action and were accused of rape.



You dont think something like might be slightly distracting for the recently married England captain?

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/rugby-world-cup/5638929/Tindalls-night-out-CCTV-footage-claim

Pretty fucking stupid imo. Altho basing the team in Queenstown wasn't bright either - it's the hub of the foreign backpacking crew and as such is party central. Great town but not sure the best place for a professional rugby team to be preparing for their next match.


----------



## paulhackett (Sep 16, 2011)

gabi said:


> You dont think something like might be slightly distracting for the recently married England captain?
> 
> http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/rugby-world-cup/5638929/Tindalls-night-out-CCTV-footage-claim
> 
> Pretty fucking stupid imo. Altho basing the team in Queenstown wasn't bright either - it's the hub of the foreign backpacking crew and as such is party central. Great town but not sure the best place for a professional rugby team to be preparing for their next match.



If the CCTV footage is what it's based on, then there's no story, unless that woman is Kirk Douglas and her tits are on her chin and his tongue comes out of his forehead.

That of course would be a story 'Man with tongue on his forehead kisses woman with tits on her chin..' but man hugs woman in bar? Pfft


----------



## gabi (Sep 16, 2011)

So you wouldn't be fussed if your new spouse was spotted first leading a pretty young thing by the hand across a bar and later spotted in an embrace with said person? Anyway.. lulz.. this is Fredalo all over again methinks.


----------



## bendeus (Sep 16, 2011)

Once more the Orc roiders heap shame on the game. The English are the, errrr......English of rugby


----------



## flypanam (Sep 16, 2011)

gabi said:


> So you wouldn't be fussed if your new spouse was spotted first leading a pretty young thing by the hand across a bar and later spotted in an embrace with said person? Anyway.. lulz.. this is Fredalo all over again methinks.



The Sun is in a tizz cos it's the husband of supa sun sorraway stunna + queens g/d Zara Phillips. Thats all. Nothing more.

C'mon The Brave Blossoms!


----------



## gabi (Sep 16, 2011)

Well if it distracts the fuckers for a game or two then, sweet as..!


----------



## Pingu (Sep 16, 2011)

NZ doing a number on Japan... 50 pointer ahoy!


----------



## gabi (Sep 16, 2011)

jesus. this is gonna be slaughter.


----------



## Pingu (Sep 16, 2011)

80 pointer?


----------



## gabi (Sep 16, 2011)

kiwis need a decent test before the knockouts, france next week.


----------



## flypanam (Sep 16, 2011)

Speaking of daft commentary did anyone catch Lols assertion that 'James Haskell is the best number 8 in world right now' which caused much mirth the fpa household as Haskell was playing on the flanks during the game. Oh to be one eyed!

Bendeus, I hope we win too tomorrow as we owe you one from the Six Nations.


----------



## bendeus (Sep 16, 2011)

Lol is hopelessly deluded. On what, I wonder, is he basing this assertion? Best try-scoring Angryface, maybe? Biggest postmatch shouty swearing outbreak? I doubt Brand Hask is even the best number 8 in Japan, let alone the fucking world.


----------



## flypanam (Sep 16, 2011)

Pocock missed the captains run http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ru...bt-for-crucial-Ireland-match-in-Auckland.html


----------



## treefrog (Sep 16, 2011)

Kia ora from Wanaka! 

been catching up on the thread, my base in Dunedin didn't have wifi so I couldn't update from there. Just a couple of points from my travels (was in Invercargill for both Scotland matches, and was at Otago stadium for England V Argentina as well)


Scotland are playing horribly. Romania and Georgia have fullbacks built like Nathan Hines, and we decided to try and play them at their own forward-game tactics  FFS. You think we'd have learned after the Romania game, but I spent most of the Georgia match watching between my fingers. If the weather had been as bad as forecast we'd have lost it for sure.
The Kiwis are a bloody awesome host nation  travelling around with my folks (over from the UK) and we've had nothing but goodwill and good banter. Have stayed away from fanzones and pubs for ABs matches mind, though we'll be out for the match against France next weekend. The NZ media are making a lot of noise as they always do, but most people I've spoken to down here have hardly been frothing at the mouth about it  You really want to judge a nation on what it laughably calls its press?
Bendeus and gabi- get a room or get over it.
England/Argentina was an exciting game live, the Argies are EVERYWHERE down here, it's great! Shite game mind, the English looked low on ideas and a bit...brutish? against the Argentines. I'm wondering if the appalling kicking in that game was down to it being indoors, there was a suggestion that the lighting hurt poor Johnny's peepers. Looking forward to seeing how they fare against Romania and Georgia though.
Russia/USA was a good game last night, though Todd Clever is being cited for that hideous tackle deep in the second half and with good reason.
The English squad are actually based in Dunedin but were given some time out in Q-town for "training". The tapes don't show any groping (the Sun is full of shit), in fact the tape doesn't look anything like him at all and the security guard who posted it has been on the TV here and he seems totally fucking hatstand. I wouldn't put too much weight behind this one.
I'm doing updates on The Twitter of all games I'm at a ground for, @irnbruja. Got the next two Scotland matches (eep) Romania V Georgia and Japan V Canada. Definitely on the holiday of a lifetime here, being part of this world cup is brilliant even if I am on crutches for it!


----------



## bendeus (Sep 16, 2011)

treefrog said:


> Bendeus and gabi- get a room or get over it.



Just a harmless bit of fun, treefrog. He started it, anyway


----------



## flypanam (Sep 16, 2011)

Great post treefrog!
kia kaha


----------



## flypanam (Sep 16, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Just a harmless bit of fun, treefrog. He started it, anyway



Will you be saying that to your TV on sunday morning? Has the team been picked to play Samoa yet?


----------



## treefrog (Sep 16, 2011)

Cheers flypanam 

Bendeus- true, but for the rest of us trying to read the thread it's a bit painful. Just sayin'.


----------



## bendeus (Sep 16, 2011)

flypanam said:


> Will you be saying that to your TV on sunday morning? Has the team been picked to play Samoa yet?



Aye. No changes to the starting XV. More strength on the bench now with Gethin back - very decent impact to be able to bring Gethin, Bradley and Mongo on on 60.

Wellies fit but not even benched due to Priestland starting at 10 (can cover 15) and the ever-versatile Hook, who can cover 13, 12, anbd 10 starting at FB.

Much better feeling about this than I had before the Fiji game in '07 (which I was convinced we'd lose). I have suddenly realised why Gatland has had Wales play such a conservative, stodgy, physical, fitness-based gameplan for the last few years. It has, I guess, been building for precisely a WC group containing the Saffas and the two strongest PIs. It almost paid off against SA, and if we can keep our discipline, and bring the organisation, shape, strength in the contact, solid setpiece and disruption at the breakdown that we showed against the Bokke I'm pretty confident we should win with a bit to spare, particularly in the final quarter.

It's when we try to outbasketball them that we'll come unstuck


----------



## bendeus (Sep 16, 2011)

treefrog said:


> Cheers flypanam
> 
> Bendeus- true, but for the rest of us trying to read the thread it's a bit painful. Just sayin'.



Blimey! Sensitive soul, aintcha?


----------



## treefrog (Sep 16, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Blimey! Sensitive soul, aintcha?


Not really, but I have to contend with classroom name-calling enough in my day job


----------



## bendeus (Sep 16, 2011)

Hmmm. Sport forums are better with a bit of niggle, surely? This isn't the MCC you know, what what?


----------



## mattie (Sep 16, 2011)

I wholeheartedly endorse locking bendy and gabi in a room for the duration of the WC.


----------



## bendeus (Sep 16, 2011)

mattie said:


> I wholeheartedly endorse locking bendy and gabi in a room for the duration of the WC.



But how would I respond to his haka without offending someone


----------



## mattie (Sep 16, 2011)

Join in?


----------



## bendeus (Sep 16, 2011)

Not sure if I'd be allowed


----------



## flypanam (Sep 16, 2011)

Or you just do a Gregan...'Four more years boys, four more years.'


----------



## mattie (Sep 16, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Not sure if I'd be allowed



Even more reason to do it.


----------



## gabi (Sep 16, 2011)

Christ, you must be a barrel of laughs to be sat beside at the rugby treefrog


----------



## bendeus (Sep 16, 2011)

Treefrog?


----------



## mattie (Sep 16, 2011)

I'm on his side - if we were at a rugby match I'd have dumped my pint over most of your heads long before now. It's one whinge straight into the next, without a pause for thought.

Out of only a slight and very probably rapidly passing interest, are there any other fabricated press stories of lewd behaviour that our chippier residents can get high-horsey about? I'm keen to see how offended people can get on no-one else's behalf.

Plus I fancy a row.  Henson blows donkeys.


----------



## bendeus (Sep 16, 2011)

mattie said:


> I'm on his side - if we were at a rugby match I'd have dumped my pint over most of your heads long before now. It's one whinge straight into the next, without a pause for thought.
> 
> Out of only a slight and very probably rapidly passing interest, are there any other fabricated press stories of lewd behaviour that our chippier residents can get high-horsey about? I'm keen to see how offended people can get on no-one else's behalf.
> 
> Plus I fancy a row. Henson blows donkeys.



'Ark at 'er!

Anyway, if we're going to get all hoity toity about posters getting high horsey about fabricated press stories regarding lewd behaviour, can I refer the honourable gentleman to a certain po-faced set of posts about poolballgate?

E2A: and we're not at a rugby match, we're on teh internetz. You'd probably be surprised to hear that I'm fractionally more tolerable during live games


----------



## mattie (Sep 16, 2011)

That's better.



Regarding poolballgate, it was the simple fact that tangoman puts himself in idiotic situations that both tickled and irked me, he should know by now what he needs to do - more accurately, what he shouldn't do, and yet does it anyway. Don't get mugged by the press for the umpteenth time.

On the rugby front, England have picked a set of bruisers for the pool games, knowing full well what sort of rugby was required. Whether they can have at least half a go at running it - you know the stuff they did when they beat Australia and won the 6N - remains to be seen. I'm less fussed about the centres (and backs in general), more fussed by the lack of a 7. We've had the problem for a while, and to be fair Woodward always said he just wanted a blend of skills across his backrow rather than distinct 6, 7 and 8, but our current arrangement still feels short on the snidey ball snaffling.  It's the knock-on effects of this (plus the liberal sprinkling of front-rows out wide that we always seem to end up with) that set the backs in concrete.


----------



## bendeus (Sep 16, 2011)

mattie said:


> That's better.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Poolballgate v.5.0 has failed to load. Please check with your network administrator or Heat magazine.

Better lineup for the Georgia game that appears to show more attacking intent. Think Youngs, Flood, Ashton and Foden bring the best out of each other. Still can't quite see the point of Hape, to be honest, but there's enough running threat from two of the back three, plus 9, to not really need to bother with them anyway

You do seem to lack a modern, jackalling seven, which appears to be pretty much _de rigeur_ atm. Ditto an explosive, line-breaking 8 (no Lol, it is not Brand Hask). Mad dog is a wonderful player in a headless chicken, ball-disrupting kind of way, but is he what's needed to play a very modern turnover-focused gameplan? Injuries aside, who would be your starting 6,7,8 for England if you had everyone to choose from?


----------



## mattie (Sep 16, 2011)

I'm amazed that the Gunshow's played as well as he has of late, I'm not his biggest fan but he seems to have sorted his head out - he ran a risk of being the English Powell, but has added some thinking (but only a little, he's no Parisse).  Quite how anyone thinks he's the best 8 in England, let alone the world, escapes me though.  The only English backrow that comes close to world class status is Croft.

I would say our best backrow would be some blend of Croft, Fourie, Moody, Wood and Easter - in terms of 8, Easter is an immensely strong bloke with very good hands and skills, just very (very) pedestrian so he needs the pace of others to mitigate.  Haskell, to give him his due, is a powerful runner with a good turn of pace.  That might be what dayglo was rattling on about.

The tragedy is Tom Rees should be in there.

Hape's game has nosedived, I think he's just too predictable in a very predictable centre pairing.  His first year at Bath he could step, offload and pick a line, no idea where that ability's vanished to.  We've much better options, I'm a bit stumped why he's there as well.


----------



## mattie (Sep 16, 2011)

Good match on tomorrow - aside from obvious and the taff/saff game there's not been that many I've been hugely interested in.


----------



## bendeus (Sep 16, 2011)

mattie said:


> Good match on tomorrow - aside from obvious and the taff/saff game there's not been that many I've been hugely interested in.



Aye. Can't see any result other than the obvious, however.


----------



## Termite Man (Sep 17, 2011)

this has probably been explained already but

HOW THE FUCK ARE POINTS ALLOCATED IN THE TABLES

for example group C

Russia and Italy have both played 1 and lost 1, both teams have also scored 6 points each yet Russia have 1 point and Italy have 0 points. That does not make sense.


----------



## King Biscuit Time (Sep 17, 2011)

It's because Russia earned a bonus point. You get a bonus point for either scoring four tries, or by losing by less than 7 points. Russia got one because they only lost 13-6 to the USA.

I suppose the thinking is that this system still retains some excitement in otherwise one-sided encounters.


----------



## Termite Man (Sep 17, 2011)

King Biscuit Time said:


> It's because Russia earned a bonus point. You get a bonus point for either scoring four tries, or by losing by less than 7 points. Russia got one because they only lost 13-6 to the USA.
> 
> I suppose the thinking is that this system still retains some excitement in otherwise one-sided encounters.



That is a crap system.


----------



## gabi (Sep 17, 2011)

Ireland are in this, in that they might win on penalties. Australia trying to play attacking rugby at least tho.

Ireland going for a drop kick 15 mins in


----------



## Termite Man (Sep 17, 2011)

gabi said:


> Ireland are in this, in that they might win on penalties. Australia trying to play attacking rugby at least tho.
> 
> Ireland going for a drop kick 15 mins in


 
Australia need more than a converted try to win now , and only 10 minutes left. It's not looking good for them


----------



## N_igma (Sep 17, 2011)

YEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Come on the fuck!


----------



## King Biscuit Time (Sep 17, 2011)

Termite Man said:


> That is a crap system.



Probably worth pointing out that you get 4 points for a win and 2 for a draw, so the bonus points aren't actually worth that much.


----------



## gabi (Sep 17, 2011)

Well done Ireland. that was a fucking awesome performance, old school, but effective.

O'Connell was huge for you.


----------



## mattie (Sep 17, 2011)

The rugby per se wasn't always that scintillating, the spectacle was.  Great game to watch, and what a result for Ireland.

Cooper's a real curate's egg.  Outstanding ability to beat a man and commit others, but surely your 10's stock-in-trade shouldn't be blind passes out the back of the hand.  Oz's backs strangely muted, but Ireland won that in the tight.  Before the game I wasn't sure that Ferris and O'Brien worked as a combination, and although the absence of Pocock meant it wasn't tested as closely as it may have been, it panned out well - big hits and good carries, and decent disruptive work if not many turnovers.  I'm a huge fan of Ferris, not sure I fancy O'Brien at 7 though.


----------



## Red Faction (Sep 17, 2011)

Boom!
What a win!

Fantastic forward play- can't believe the tri nations champions can't hold their own in the scrum!!
Really stepped up a gear today.  

What's the QF permutations?


----------



## mattie (Sep 17, 2011)

Termite Man said:


> That is a crap system.



It's there to keep losing teams interested.  Seems like a good idea.


----------



## mattie (Sep 17, 2011)

Red Faction said:


> Boom!
> What a win!
> 
> Fantastic forward play- can't believe the tri nations champions can't hold their own in the scrum!!
> ...



Oz won a few penalties in the scrum, but, yes, they are pretty gash and have been since time immemorial.


----------



## torquemad (Sep 17, 2011)

You go Bendy! Don't let the teacher bully you into standing in the corner like a naughty child.

Now then, what about THEM onions... woohoo Oireland.


----------



## Maggot (Sep 17, 2011)

Great victory for Ireland!

Can someone who knows about Rugby tell me:  Were Ireland massive underdogs for this one?


----------



## mattie (Sep 17, 2011)

Maggot said:


> Great victory for Ireland!
> 
> Can someone who knows about Rugby tell me: Were Ireland massive underdogs for this one?



Not massive, but significant- they'll rarely get turned over but sadly usually come up a bit short against the SH teams.

They also had a pretty poor build-up to the World Cup whereas Oz won the Tri-nations (where they play South Africa- the current World Cup holders - and NZ who, to put it lightly, are no mugs) so I wasn't holding out huge hope for them.  Ireland managed to beat England in Dublin, and that was about it.  Which makes this a bit sweeter.


----------



## gabi (Sep 17, 2011)

Er, yes 

in reply to maggot!


----------



## Red Faction (Sep 17, 2011)

Yes they were MASSIVE underdogs. 
Australia champions of the southern hemisphere. 
Ireland- previously struggling to find any sort of form. 

First time I've heard openside flanker referred to as 'fetcher'


----------



## mattie (Sep 17, 2011)

Massive underdogs would be Italy.  Ireland generally run the SH teams close.


----------



## gabi (Sep 17, 2011)

mattie said:


> Massive underdogs would be Italy. Ireland generally run the SH teams close.



Dude. Ireland were dead men walking before this game. it was 8/1 on an ireland win. i just woke up too late to place that.


----------



## mattie (Sep 17, 2011)

Red Faction said:


> Boom!
> What a win!
> 
> Fantastic forward play- can't believe the tri nations champions can't hold their own in the scrum!!
> ...



Apols, missed your question - this makes it interesting, as I suspect this make make an Ireland/taff QF.  I wouldn't like to put money on the outcome of that game.


----------



## mattie (Sep 17, 2011)

gabi said:


> Dude. Ireland were dead men walking before this game. it was 8/1 on an ireland win. i just woke up too late to place that.



England beat Oz last time we played them, and although their backs are excellent their forwards - Pocock aside - are servicable but not exactly SA or NZ. Their backs also aren't perhaps as physically imposing as others, which is important in tight, attritional games.  I'd always fancy a chance against them. Not so for NZ. Simply too good in every position.

After seeing England ripped a new one in Dublin (ignoring the warm-ups where Ireland ignored kicking for goal) I held out some hope Ireland might actually do something. Hopefully this is a spring-board.


----------



## gabi (Sep 17, 2011)

Well.. they have Quade Cooper. Who I believe the word 'mercurial' was invented for. Carter's consistent game in, game out, but Cooper's got unbelievable talent, could win a game on his own... he has no discipline but I still back the ockers on this one if he stays fit. Kurtley Beale was outstanding in the first half too.

anyway. the wc's hottin up nicely.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Sep 17, 2011)

gabi said:


> Well.. they have Quade Cooper. Who I believe the word 'mercurial' was invented for. Carter's consistent game in, game out, but Cooper's got unbelievable talent, could win a game on his own... he has no discipline but I still back the ockers on this one if he stays fit. Kurtley Beale was outstanding in the first half too.


They have to have the ball first though. We won it up front, great intensity. Hope we keep it up.


----------



## bendeus (Sep 17, 2011)

torquemad said:


> You go Bendy! Don't let the teacher bully you into standing in the corner like a naughty child.



Haven't seen you on here for ages, Torquemad

What the fuck are you on about?


----------



## treefrog (Sep 17, 2011)

I'm female, but don't let that stop y'all 

Fuck yeah, what an AWESOME game for Ireland. totally edge-of-the-seat from start to finish, laughed my arse off when the Irish forward picked Genia up and carried him with the ball before throwing him into "Bieber" O'Connor. Just wondering what took them so long to bring O'Gara on? didn't see much of Cooper this match, no doubt his mercurial genius is being held in reserve to knee a worthwhile victim in the ruck.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Sep 17, 2011)

Termite Man said:


> this has probably been explained already but
> 
> HOW THE FUCK ARE POINTS ALLOCATED IN THE TABLES
> 
> ...



Win - 4 points
Draw - 2 points
Loss - 0 points
4 or more tries - 1 point
Loss by 7 points or less - 1 point


----------



## bendeus (Sep 17, 2011)

mattie said:


> Apols, missed your question - this makes it interesting, as I suspect this make make an Ireland/taff QF. I wouldn't like to put money on the outcome of that game.



Well they certainly won't face such a fucking abysmal pack. The Aussie forwards handed the game to Ireland today - an absolutely pathetic performance that clearly demonstrates how paper thin the crims' cover is up front. I would have loved to see the Welsh 8 against that lot, Pocock or no Pocock.

Even with such largesse, Ireland could have contrived to lose that. Still massively unconvincing behind the pack, IMO. They created virtually nothing all game. It was Muhnnerball, pure and simple, which may actually be a fairly useful tactic in a WC.

Don't want to rob anything from the Irish performance, mind, very full of heart. Best I've seen POC play for a while, the props left their roller skates in the changing rooms. Ferris and SOB were excellent, I thought. Every chance of a NH finalist now - all the SH sides may well find themselves in each others' way en route to the final


----------



## mattie (Sep 17, 2011)

treefrog said:


> I'm female, but don't let that stop y'all
> 
> Fuck yeah, what an AWESOME game for Ireland. totally edge-of-the-seat from start to finish, laughed my arse off when the Irish forward picked Genia up and carried him with the ball before throwing him into "Bieber" O'Connor. Just wondering what took them so long to bring O'Gara on? didn't see much of Cooper this match, no doubt his mercurial genius is being held in reserve to knee a worthwhile victim in the ruck.



Without wishing to sound like big racist Ron, Cooper does like the hollywood ball a little bit too much.

Does this, by any chance, mean Oz might meet NZ sooner rather than later?  I think McCaw might enjoy that little reunion.


----------



## mattie (Sep 17, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Well they certainly won't face such a fucking abysmal pack. The Aussie forwards handed the game to Ireland today - an absolutely pathetic performance that clearly demonstrates how paper thin the crims' cover is up front. I would have loved to see the Welsh 8 against that lot, Pocock or no Pocock.
> 
> Even with such largesse, Ireland could have contrived to lose that. Still massively unconvincing behind the pack, IMO. They created virtually nothing all game. It was Muhnnerball, pure and simple, which may actually be a fairly useful tactic in a WC.
> 
> Don't want to rob anything from the Irish performance, mind, very full of heart. Best I've seen POC play for a while, the props left their roller skates in the changing rooms. Ferris and SOB were excellent, I thought. Every chance of a NH finalist now - all the SH sides may well find themselves in each others' way en route to the final



Play what's in front of you etc etc.


----------



## bendeus (Sep 17, 2011)

mattie said:


> Play what's in front of you etc etc.



Aye. Ireland had an insipid blancmange in front of them.


----------



## Termite Man (Sep 17, 2011)

mattie said:


> Without wishing to sound like big racist Ron, Cooper does like the hollywood ball a little bit too much.
> 
> Does this, by any chance, mean Oz might meet NZ sooner rather than later? I think McCaw might enjoy that little reunion.



I think it would be Oz vs SA next round then winner of that plays NZ


----------



## stavros (Sep 17, 2011)

treefrog said:


> "Bieber" O'Connor.



I didn't know his name, but watching the highlights this evening it did strike me that the Aussie kicker looked about 13.


----------



## mattie (Sep 18, 2011)

Not great, but 6 tries, all scored by backs.

Penalties are killing us, and when we try to get the defensive line up quickly  - which we desperately needed to do against a powerful team who built up good momentum into contact - we seem to dogleg or leave gaps.  A team with decent backs would punish that.


----------



## bendeus (Sep 18, 2011)

Samoa were pretty fucking competitive. Much tighter and more disciplined than any PI side I've seen to date - think it was only superior fitness (again, well done Gatland for taking us to Poland) that saw us through. Doesn't surprise me in the least that they beat the Aussies on their home turf; they'd be a handful for any of the NH sides, IMO.

Got up at 4:30 to watch it - 80 miserable minutes. Not a game I can say I enjoyed.

Nevertheless, this side has now shown it can win ugly against tough opposition and with some pretty dubious refereeing decisions going against it.

Lydiate's injury showed how critical he is to the gameplan. Faletau and Warbs suddenly having to do twice the dirty work really neutralised our backrow, which until now has been an immense strength. Roberts was, again, awesome: right back to Lions' form. Priestland clearly knows how to get the best out of him, which is why he is now our first choice. Also impressed with Phillips (again). Proving that class is permanent after being written off by many (including me) last season. Awesome defence around the fringes, quick ball to the backs when required, and some very, very cool decision making when it counted.

Gethin back a massive bonus. Good to see him create the turnover when defending our line. That's why he's so special. Big worries about Adam, however, who looked off the pace and, quite possibly, injured. That combined with Hook's shoulder, Lydiate's ankle and Bennett are all big problems for us. Hope they're ok.

Anyway, set up nicely for a QF against Ireland, who I think are there for the taking. We are more than capable of matching them in every department that they bested Australia in (Scrum, contact, breakdown), we are fitter, and we have, in my opinion, a shade more in the backs. A lot will depend on injuries, I guess. There, I said it


----------



## elfman (Sep 19, 2011)

Didn't get to see any rugby over the weekend or see any results until now 

Glad to see I was very wrong about the Ireland match, just wished I could of watched it!

I should be going to a city this weekend so I will be able to watch a game or 2  Probably Eng v Rom and NZ v Fra


----------



## elfman (Sep 19, 2011)

Also, I just checked the fantasy league.... I 'm having a shocker!!

When I get some time I need to sort my team out!


----------



## sleaterkinney (Sep 19, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Anyway, set up nicely for a QF against Ireland, who I think are there for the taking. We are more than capable of matching them in every department that they bested Australia in (Scrum, contact, breakdown), we are fitter, and we have, in my opinion, a shade more in the backs. A lot will depend on injuries, I guess. There, I said it



Quoted for posterity.


----------



## bendeus (Sep 19, 2011)

Quote away.


----------



## 1927 (Sep 20, 2011)

Had to laugh at the papers on sunday saying that Ireland's victory had opened up England's route to the final. This assumes so many things. Firstly that they are capable of beating Scotland, debatable. That they would be a match for France in the quarters and thirdly that they could beat the winners of an Ireland v Wales quarter final, highly unlikely!

England will come unstuck the moment they meet a half decent team. Unconvincing wins against Argies and Georgia hardly put them up there as teams to be feared in this competition.


----------



## flypanam (Sep 20, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Anyway, set up nicely for a QF against Ireland, who I think are there for the taking. We are more than capable of matching them in every department that they bested Australia in (Scrum, contact, breakdown), we are fitter, and we have, in my opinion, a shade more in the backs. A lot will depend on injuries, I guess. There, I said it



Well you have to believe...but you didn't own us at home in the 6 nations and we do owe you. Will be an interesting game if we both get that far.

I think if Samoa had had more than 4 days rest they would have had you.


----------



## mattie (Sep 20, 2011)

1927 said:


> Had to laugh at the papers on sunday saying that Ireland's victory had opened up England's route to the final. This assumes so many things. Firstly that they are capable of beating Scotland, debatable. That they would be a match for France in the quarters and thirdly that they could beat the winners of an Ireland v Wales quarter final, highly unlikely!
> 
> England will come unstuck the moment they meet a half decent team. Unconvincing wins against Argies and Georgia hardly put them up there as teams to be feared in this competition.



Hmm.  There was me thinking England had beaten all the teams mentioned already this year.  Only Ireland was in a meaningless game, and Ireland have proved our bogey team, much like - for reasons that escape me, on paper they should give us a hiding - we seem to be France's.

I think, outside NZ and maybe the saffas if they get up a head of steam, there's not a huge amount between a number of teams.  Which is brilliant.

I realise you're just being your usual self, so I'm not sure if meeting your post with reason what quite what was required.  I tried anyway.


----------



## 1927 (Sep 20, 2011)

mattie said:


> Hmm. There was me thinking England had beaten all the teams mentioned already this year. Only Ireland was in a meaningless game, and Ireland have proved our bogey team, much like - for reasons that escape me, on paper they should give us a hiding - we seem to be France's.
> 
> I think, outside NZ and maybe the saffas if they get up a head of steam, there's not a huge amount between a number of teams. Which is brilliant.
> 
> I realise you're just being your usual self, so I'm not sure if meeting your post with reason what quite what was required. I tried anyway.



Mattie, do you really believe that England have shown the sort of form in this world cup so far to suggest that they could beat any of the other NH teams? Wales and Ireland are both playing above themselves in patches, whereas England are below par. I'm not saying that its impossible that they will get to the final I just think that to say that the draw has opened up for them, and not to suggest that it hasnt opened up for Wales and Ireland equally is shortsighted.


----------



## gabi (Sep 20, 2011)

This WC seems really slow moving. Surely they could condense it a bit more.. it's not as bad the cricket one, but not far off. Does a professional rugby team seriously need 7 days plus between games?


----------



## mattie (Sep 20, 2011)

1927 said:


> Mattie, do you really believe that England have shown the sort of form in this world cup so far to suggest that they could beat any of the other NH teams? Wales and Ireland are both playing above themselves in patches, whereas England are below par. I'm not saying that its impossible that they will get to the final I just think that to say that the draw has opened up for them, and not to suggest that it hasnt opened up for Wales and Ireland equally is shortsighted.



England made the 2007 final after a string of awful performances, and their showing in the final itself was good - one strip of whitewash away. There's talent in the team, but - like all teams that aren't NZ - there are gaps. The trick is, as the 6N and some of the autumn internationals showed, is not to play to weaknesses but to strengths. At present, the idiotic work at breakdown is stopping them playing to the the only way they will reasonably compete - get the forwards going to mess the opposition defensive structure, and use the centres as a battaring ram or as a support for the very handy back 3. If we end up with slow ball, I'm not convinced Flood or Wilkinson have the ability to make a military medium centre pairing (or the relatively crude and inexperienced Tuilagi) do anything other than run it into trouble, and the back 3 are spectators. That's what's happened so far.

Who is saying it hasn't opened up for Wales and Ireland, by the way?


----------



## mattie (Sep 20, 2011)

gabi said:


> This WC seems really slow moving. Surely they could condense it a bit more.. it's not as bad the cricket one, but not far off. Does a professional rugby team seriously need 7 days plus between games?



Seeing as it's supposed to be the peak of the sport, not letting teams fully prepare would seem a touch odd.  Yep, the gaps are a bit frustrating, but it does take a few days to recover and to put the plans for the next team in motion.


----------



## 1927 (Sep 20, 2011)

mattie said:


> England made the 2007 final after a string of awful performances, and their showing in the final itself was good - one strip of whitewash away. There's talent in the team, but - like all teams that aren't NZ - there are gaps. The trick is, as the 6N and some of the autumn internationals showed, is not to play to weaknesses but to strengths. At present, the idiotic work at breakdown is stopping them playing to the the only way they will reasonably compete - get the forwards going to mess the opposition defensive structure, and use the centres as a battaring ram or as a support for the very handy back 3. If we end up with slow ball, I'm not convinced Flood or Wilkinson have the ability to make a military medium centre pairing (or the relatively crude and inexperienced Tuilagi) do anything other than run it into trouble, and the back 3 are spectators. That's what's happened so far.
> 
> Who is saying it hasn't opened up for Wales and Ireland, by the way?


That was the whole point of my earlier post, the sunday papers were creaming themselves about the easier route for England, without mentioning the esier route for any other NH team!


----------



## 1927 (Sep 20, 2011)

gabi said:


> This WC seems really slow moving. Surely they could condense it a bit more.. it's not as bad the cricket one, but not far off. Does a professional rugby team seriously need 7 days plus between games?



Some of the hits going in these days I am surpsrised they can play again after 7days!


----------



## elfman (Sep 20, 2011)

1927 said:


> Some of the hits going in these days I am surpsrised they can play again after 7days!



Yeh, I agree. If you've ever played rugby from about u15s to senior level you know how stiff you get from all the contact in the matches. I've not played much over the last couple of years but when I was playing I could be aching for about 3 days after a match and I played a lot at full back, wing and centre, so the forwards can take even longer to recover...


----------



## mattie (Sep 20, 2011)

1927 said:


> That was the whole point of my earlier post, the sunday papers were creaming themselves about the easier route for England, without mentioning the esier route for any other NH team!



I'd be surprised if it was 'all', bu mostly I'm amazed that you listen to the press at all.  They are trying to sell papers, so they talk about whatever they think is of interest to the majority.  There's a lot more plastic rugby fans in England than in the other home nations.

I have a chuckle every two years at the Currant Bun et all doing their usual overkill of John Terry's ability and chances in international tournaments.  Perhaps funnier are the reactions from some of our celtic cousins, even the obviously deeply troubled and demonstrably bigoted ones (present company most definitely excluded, in case it was inadvertently implied).

On the topic of rugby press, the Rugby Times has merged with the Rugby Paper, which is a touch sad.


----------



## bendeus (Sep 20, 2011)

mattie said:


> even the obviously deeply troubled and demonstrably bigoted ones



You called?

Just for a bit of fun, like, would the home nations posters fancy picking their British and Irish Lions team at this current moment basing it purely on form and having a clean bill of health? Having thought it through I've surprised myself a wee bit:

1: Cian Healy (I feel dirty)
2: Best
3: Cole
4: Charteris (Continuing to surprise myself, but the streak of piss really has been something of a revelation)
5: POC
6: Ferris/SOB (hard to pick)
7: Warburton
8: Faletau
9: Phillips
10: Priestland
11: Hmmm. No standouts here. Shane, I guess?
12: Roberts (one of the players of the tournament so far)
13: BO'D (Not much competition here)
14: Ashton (for his wonderful swallow dive against the, errr, Georgians, if nothing else)
15: Foden

Sorry, Scotland 

E2A: I don't reckon that would be too far off the starting XV. Some would possibly have Croft pushing for the 6 berth. Dorrty bastard Lawes may have been in with a shout if it wasn't for his indiscretions. Nobody has really stuck their hands up at 8, but Faletau should be considered for his performance against SA if nothing else. Hooker is a bit of a lottery - a number of players could be pushing for this position. Ditto ten - I've got Priestland in there for the variation he's showed in his game, and for the fact that he's bringing Roberts into the game in a way that the other Welsh choices at o/h have failed to do, and Roberts is a nailed-on starter.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Sep 21, 2011)

bendeus said:


> You called?
> 
> Just for a bit of fun, like, would the home nations posters fancy picking their British and Irish Lions team at this current moment basing it purely on form and having a clean bill of health? Having thought it through I've surprised myself a wee bit:
> 
> ...


Heaslip had a massive year at 8, as did Sexton at 10.


----------



## flypanam (Sep 21, 2011)

Cough!



bendeus said:


> Adam was giving the Beast a torrid time on Sunday, also. Adam is, however, the best scrummaging tighthead in the world, so this should come as no surprise.



Ahem, Cough!

The Lions options at scrum half are very poor!


----------



## Pingu (Sep 21, 2011)

tonga v japan was fun to watch. not great rugby it has to be said but bloody entertaining


----------



## bendeus (Sep 21, 2011)

sleaterkinney said:


> Heaslip had a massive year at 8, as did Sexton at 10.



And, surprise surprise, they're both Irish. Given your pick of ROG for starting test o/h for the last Lions tour do you think another incredibly flakey, speedbump-in-defence type standoff, whose kicking record is erratic and who isn't necessarily even the best 10 in his country should be a Lions test starter? I'm going on current form, and Sexton wouldn't be picked on the back of his current form in a million years.

Ditto Heaslip. Immense 8 on his day (and with the right backrow supporting him), but doesn't seem to be pulling up trees at the moment.


----------



## bendeus (Sep 21, 2011)

flypanam said:


> Cough!
> 
> Ahem, Cough!


 
Adam is, I think, currently carrying an injury, and has been sub-par by his normally excellent standards over the last couple of games. He certainly dominated in the scrum against SA, less so against Samoa, and is noticably slow in the loose, frequently walking to the ruck. As such, and because I am picking solely on form and on current injuries, Cole is in there.



> The Lions options at scrum half are very poor!



Phillips has been back to close to his Lions form over the last three games or so. On current form he'd start the three tests. You're right, though. Scrum half locker is very bare. Couple of wonderkids coming through but at the moment only Youngs looking like he could be a Lion.


----------



## mattie (Sep 21, 2011)

I think they're referring to bendy

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/sport...-keep-rugby-fans-in-new-zealand-201109124290/


----------



## bendeus (Sep 21, 2011)

Cheeky bastard. I have no interest in scrotii, anal gags, putting ten pence pieces under my foreskin, drinking piss, nor bawdy songs about clunge. I have fairly scrawny forearms and tend to shy away from homoerotica (in a tolerant kind of way, of course).

Not guilty, yer honour.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Sep 21, 2011)

bendeus said:


> And, surprise surprise, they're both Irish. Given your pick of ROG for starting test o/h for the last Lions tour do you think another incredibly flakey, speedbump-in-defence type standoff, whose kicking record is erratic and who isn't necessarily even the best 10 in his country should be a Lions test starter? I'm going on current form, and Sexton wouldn't be picked on the back of his current form in a million years.
> 
> Ditto Heaslip. Immense 8 on his day (and with the right backrow supporting him), but doesn't seem to be pulling up trees at the moment.


Just for the record, how many days back does current form go?


----------



## bendeus (Sep 21, 2011)

sleaterkinney said:


> Just for the record, how many days back does current form go?






			
				bendeus said:
			
		

> 1: Cian Healy (I feel dirty)






			
				bendeus said:
			
		

> 4: Charteris (Continuing to surprise myself, but the streak of piss really has been something of a revelation)







			
				bendeus said:
			
		

> Adam is, I think, currently carrying an injury, and has been sub-par by his normally excellent standards over the last couple of games. He certainly dominated in the scrum against SA, less so against Samoa, and is noticably slow in the loose, frequently walking to the ruck. As such, and because I am picking solely on form and on current injuries, Cole is in there.



Sorry, the minute I spot an outside half performance vaguely worthy of the label 'lions class' from Sexton post his performance against England in the last 6N, I'll wire you. Apologies if I once again failed to spot his virtuosity against Australia: a game in which ROG was a far better performer at 10.


----------



## 1927 (Sep 22, 2011)

sleaterkinney said:


> Just for the record, how many days back does current form go?



I would have thought  performances in this world cup.


----------



## mattie (Sep 22, 2011)

To the 2008 6N, I suspect.

*runs*


----------



## flypanam (Sep 22, 2011)

Nah 2005!


----------



## Pingu (Sep 22, 2011)

namibia rumoured to have ordered a big box of KY Jelly for the second half.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Sep 22, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Sorry, the minute I spot an outside half performance vaguely worthy of the label 'lions class' from Sexton post his performance against England in the last 6N, I'll wire you. Apologies if I once again failed to spot his virtuosity against Australia: a game in which ROG was a far better performer at 10.


HC pass you by?. I guess you wouldn't be interested in that, seeing as your welsh. He was MOTM in the final four months ago , when has Priestland done anything near that level?


----------



## sleaterkinney (Sep 22, 2011)

1927 said:


> I would have thought performances in this world cup.


I'd take a longer view than two pool games


----------



## bendeus (Sep 22, 2011)

Cool. So let me know how Sexton is Lions class using your longer view, then.


----------



## bendeus (Sep 22, 2011)

sleaterkinney said:


> HC pass you by?. I guess you wouldn't be interested in that, seeing as your welsh. He was MOTM in the final four months ago , when has Priestland done anything near that level?



My Welsh what? No, the HEC didn't pass me by, but I was labouring under the obviously mistaken impression that the best yardstick for Lions selection was performances at international rather than club level. When has Priestland done anything near that level? Well, I would imagine his three recent very strong showings against last WC's beaten finalists, the winning finalists and one of the most physical teams in the competition would class  as 'that level'. Don't you think?




			
				Belfast Telegraph said:
			
		

> *Jonathan Sexton - 5*
> Decision making was poor at times and missed three of his five shots at goal.
> 
> Read more: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/rugby/world-cup/ireland-player-ratings-v-australia-16051223.html?action=Popup&ino=6#ixzz1YfzpA6AX​



Oh dear.


----------



## bendeus (Sep 22, 2011)

flypanam said:


> Nah 2005!



Yes. Robert Sidoli and Alfie for teh Lionsz1!!11!!!


----------



## sleaterkinney (Sep 22, 2011)

bendeus said:


> My Welsh what? No, the HEC didn't pass me by, but I was labouring under the obviously mistaken impression that the best yardstick for Lions selection was performances at international rather than club level. When has Priestland done anything near that level? Well, I would imagine his three recent very strong showings against last WC's beaten finalists, the winning finalists and one of the most physical teams in the competition would class as 'that level'. Don't you think?


No, I wouldn't put a warm-up friendly at 'that level' or a pool game against samoa.

Oh dear indeed.


----------



## elfman (Sep 22, 2011)

I think it would be very hard to decide who would be in the Lions team at the moment. Once the WC has finished I think we should discuss this again


----------



## bendeus (Sep 22, 2011)

elfman said:


> I think it would be very hard to decide who would be in the Lions team at the moment. Once the WC has finished I think we should discuss this again



Far too reasonable


----------



## bendeus (Sep 22, 2011)

sleaterkinney said:


> No, I wouldn't put a warm-up friendly at 'that level' or a pool game against samoa.
> 
> Oh dear indeed.



Funny you missed the SA game out there.




			
				bendeus said:
			
		

> Cool. So let me know how Sexton is Lions class using your longer view, then.



Can I include Sexton's gash performances in the warmup games and the pool so far then, or isn't that allowed?


----------



## sleaterkinney (Sep 22, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Funny you missed the SA game out there.


No, because that was just one game. Which incidentally you lost and which he didn't score in, missing a crucial drop goal.



bendeus said:


> Can I include Sexton's gash performances in the warmup games and the pool so far then, or isn't that allowed?


If you want to include friendly warm up games as being at 'that level' - go ahead, I don't.


----------



## bendeus (Sep 22, 2011)

sleaterkinney said:


> No, because that was just one game. Which incidentally you lost and which he didn't score in, missing a crucial drop goal.



One game you handily chose to ignore. Scoring is now a prerequisite of excellence, is it? Poor old Ferris, he was obviously shite in the last game.



> If you want to include friendly warm up games as being at 'that level' - go ahead, I don't.



Well given the fact that you want to shoehorn him in on the basis of a non-international match that took place a number of months ago, I'd say my approach was fairly sane.




			
				The Independent said:
			
		

> *Jonathan Sexton: * Real mixed bag from Sexton. Passed well and his break and offload allowed Bowe in for Ireland's relieving first try. But kicked poorly both from hand and off the tee, missing four penalties albeit in tricky conditions. Will likely keep his place against Australia but under pressure from O'Gara. 5



Vs. the mighty USA. Oh dear.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Sep 22, 2011)

bendeus said:


> One game you handily chose to ignore. Scoring is now a prerequisite of excellence, is it? Poor old Ferris, he was obviously shite in the last game.


Not ignore, discount, because it was only one pool game. You'd expect a Lions 10 to get on the scoresheet, at least they let him take a couple of penalties in the Samoa game.



bendeus said:


> Well given the fact that you want to shoehorn him in on the basis of a non-international match that took place a number of months ago, I'd say my approach was fairly sane.


I'd say the standard of rugby would be higher and there would be more pressure than in a warm-up friendly, yes.


----------



## bendeus (Sep 22, 2011)

sleaterkinney said:


> Not ignore, discount, because it was only one pool game. You'd expect a Lions 10 to get on the scoresheet, at least they let him take a couple of penalties in the Samoa game.
> 
> I'd say the standard of rugby would be higher and there would be more pressure than in a warm-up friendly, yes.



You're not really addressing the fact that Sexton has been pretty poor and inconsistent at international level since pretty much the last game of the previous six nations, are you? Given that I am picking on current form, which can include the leadup to the WC as well as pool games so far, who would you pick on current form at 10?


----------



## sleaterkinney (Sep 22, 2011)

bendeus said:


> You're not really addressing the fact that Sexton has been pretty poor and inconsistent at international level since pretty much the last game of the previous six nations, are you?


No, because I wouldn't base my opinion of a player solely on international games.


bendeus said:


> Given that I am picking on current form, which can include the leadup to the WC as well as pool games so far, who would you pick on current form at 10?


Like I said above, it's pointless judging a player on friendlies and a couple of pool games. Sexton has had a good year and has shown he can perform at a high level. Priestland hasn't.


----------



## gabi (Sep 22, 2011)

anyone know when the world cup actually starts? ie, not south africa running up 90 points against their second cousins?


----------



## Juice Terry (Sep 22, 2011)

gabi said:


> anyone know when the world cup actually starts? ie, not south africa running up 90 points against their second cousins?


Saturday morning around 10am GMT when the All Blacks start choking against the French "B" team would be my guess


----------



## bendeus (Sep 22, 2011)

sleaterkinney said:


> No, because I wouldn't base my opinion of a player solely on international games.
> Like I said above, it's pointless judging a player on friendlies and a couple of pool games. Sexton has had a good year and has shown he can perform at a high level. Priestland hasn't.



No he hasn't. Not at international level, which is the yardstick for selection. He has shown he can perform at HEC level, but this is not the same. Jonathan Davies (our current 13) shines at HEC level, but has yet to demonstrate he can do the same in the international spotlight. If you think the two things are equivalent then there isn't much point in continuing this discussion; they are quite clearly not, as demonstrated by the lacklustre performances of your current 10 in an Irish shirt.

You should be thankful, really. I've just set him up for a MOTM performance and the winning drop goal against us in the QFs.


----------



## flypanam (Sep 22, 2011)

I think Sexton would make a very good 12. Like Aaron Mauger was for the ABs.


----------



## gabi (Sep 22, 2011)

Juice Terry said:


> Saturday morning around 10am GMT when the All Blacks start choking against the French "B" team would be my guess



that game is going to be a walk-over. the frogs are making a mockery of the WC playing parra at 10. hope it comes back to bite them on the arse later in the tournament.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Sep 22, 2011)

bendeus said:


> No he hasn't. Not at international level, which is the yardstick for selection. He has shown he can perform at HEC level, but this is not the same. Jonathan Davies (our current 13) shines at HEC level, but has yet to demonstrate he can do the same in the international spotlight. If you think the two things are equivalent then there isn't much point in continuing this discussion; they are quite clearly not, as demonstrated by the lacklustre performances of your current 10 in an Irish shirt.


I wasn't even surprised by you including welsh players on the basis of warm up friendlies, a loss and a close pool game vs samoa - what will welsh fans be like if you actually win an important game?


----------



## bendeus (Sep 22, 2011)

sleaterkinney said:


> I wasn't even surprised by you including welsh players on the basis of warm up friendlies, a loss and a close pool game vs samoa -



How about you actually address the point, champ?


----------



## sleaterkinney (Sep 22, 2011)

bendeus said:


> How about you actually address the point, champ?


What point, the fact that you rate warm up friendlies as being at 'that level' but don't count HEC finals?


----------



## flypanam (Sep 22, 2011)

gabi said:


> that game is going to be a walk-over. the frogs are making a mockery of the WC playing parra at 10. hope it comes back to bite them on the arse later in the tournament.



Parra can do it, he's done it enough times for his club. The French selection is surprising in that there are no leftfield/outthere selections. I think Lievremont might actually be getting a handle on this team selection lark.

Anyway who ever loses get's the 'easier' semi final.


----------



## bendeus (Sep 22, 2011)

sleaterkinney said:


> What point, the fact that you rate warm up friendlies as being at 'that level' but don't count HEC finals?



No, the point, repeatedly made, that Sexton has shown little form at international level - the level at which most elite players are judged unless, of course, you're you - for quite a while now, and therefore won't be selected 'on form' as the best 10 from the home nations because at elite level he has failed to prove that over recent games. Does that explain things sufficiently, or would you like me to post some more match reviews?


----------



## bendeus (Sep 22, 2011)

Meanwhile,



> Devout Christian Euan Murray has questioned the need for Rugby World Cup matches to be played on Sundays.
> The Glasgow-born prop, 31, has chosen to prioritise his faith this weekend, meaning he will miss Scotland's Pool B clash with Argentina on Sunday.





> "I don't see why there have to be games on Sundays," said Murray.



Perhaps because few other people give a skinny rat's arse about the Sabbath



> "I hope things will change in future."



I wouldn't hold your breath, Euan.

Linquette


----------



## sleaterkinney (Sep 22, 2011)

bendeus said:


> No, the point, repeatedly made, that Sexton has shown little form at international level - the level at which most elite players are judged unless, of course, you're you - for quite a while now, and therefore won't be selected 'on form' as the best 10 from the home nations because at elite level he has failed to prove that over recent games. Does that explain things sufficiently, or would you like me to post some more match reviews?


I disagree, but this argument has gone on way past it's time. We will find out who's best over the next couple of weeks


----------



## sleaterkinney (Sep 22, 2011)

Anyway bendeus, speaking of 10's. why have Sexton knocking over the points to knock you out when you could have O'Gara?.

Ronan O'Gara says his *weekend comments* about quitting international duty after the World Cup were misinterpreted.O'Gara said after Saturday's stunning 15-6 win over Australia that he would be "done with Ireland in a few weeks". But the fly-half clarified the comments on Wednesday, insisting he will assess his Ireland future after the World Cup. "I was speaking in the context of being done with Ireland in six or seven weeks' time in terms of this World Cup."



*
*


----------



## mattie (Sep 22, 2011)

Wilkinson kicks collective ass.  Honest guv.

In all seriousness, anyone but Dan Parks.


----------



## bendeus (Sep 22, 2011)

sleaterkinney said:


> I disagree, but this argument has gone on way past it's time. We will find out who's best over the next couple of weeks



It has. See it less of a disagreement and more as a gilt-edged opportunity for schadenfreude when he kicks the winning DG after tormenting Wales during a flawless display. I will obviously make the required penance to the server fund if he's MOTM


----------



## bendeus (Sep 22, 2011)

sleaterkinney said:


> Anyway bendeus, speaking of 10's. why have Sexton knocking over the points to knock you out when you could have O'Gara?.
> 
> Ronan O'Gara says his *weekend comments* about quitting international duty after the World Cup were misinterpreted.O'Gara said after Saturday's stunning 15-6 win over Australia that he would be "done with Ireland in a few weeks". But the fly-half clarified the comments on Wednesday, insisting he will assess his Ireland future after the World Cup. "I was speaking in the context of being done with Ireland in six or seven weeks' time in terms of this World Cup."



O'Purple has been the nemesis of Wales enough time for me never to relish him being on the field. I honestly reckon that O'Gara-led Muhnnerball will see Ireland better this WC than the more expansive game that Sexton can bring. Horses for courses, innit, and for delivering in tight games, ROG's yer man.


----------



## bendeus (Sep 22, 2011)

mattie said:


> Wilkinson kicks collective ass. Honest guv.
> 
> In all seriousness, anyone but Dan Parks.



Wilkinson's still awesome, but maybe not the best choice for getting those backs moving. He plays so deep....


----------



## sleaterkinney (Sep 22, 2011)

bendeus said:


> O'Purple has been the nemesis of Wales enough time for me never to relish him being on the field. I honestly reckon that O'Gara-led Muhnnerball will see Ireland better this WC than the more expansive game that Sexton can bring. Horses for courses, innit, and for delivering in tight games, ROG's yer man.






			
				Declan Kidney said:
			
		

> Forwards win matches, the backs decide by how much


A bit of Munster pragmatism will do just fine.


----------



## elfman (Sep 23, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Meanwhile,
> 
> Perhaps because few other people give a skinny rat's arse about the Sabbath
> 
> ...



I saw that earlier. He goes on about how you can't just pick and choose parts of the bible to follow, but I'm sure he doesn't agree with all the horrible crap in there like the 'God hates fags' crew....

I'm not even sure if what I said there made much sense but hopefully you'll all understand because I cba writing a long post


----------



## flypanam (Sep 23, 2011)

Getting away from the debate about Jesus and Rugby I see that Timmy Horan is having a 'Whinge.' Will Australia take the skirt off and man up and call Timmy a 'Shelia' no, they print it...

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sp...e-way-to-victory/story-fn8ti7yn-1226142942135

it gets worse (If its actually true then it is shameful) but the 'Best Fans in the World' aka the Aussies are not being welcomed with open arms in NZ! Shocker!

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sp...t-of-australians/story-fn8ti7yn-1226143518113

Sorry I'm still feeling a warm glow form beating them


----------



## gabi (Sep 23, 2011)

i do think its pretty fucking funny they're whinging about kiwis giving them stick. any kiwi who's ever had to attend any sporting event across the ditch must be loving this. i almost wish i was down there to join in. almost.


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 23, 2011)

Glad to see England have finally picked our best loosehead to start, only took 2 games.  Sheridan is past it and Stevens is clearly a tighthead.  Not sure about dropping Armitage mind, he looked much more lively then Foden.  Perhaps I'm just showing my club partisan side.

From what I've seen so far I can see England winning their group, just, and probably beating France in the quarters.  I fancy either of Wales or Ireland to beat us in the semi though, both teams look far more sure of their gameplan.


----------



## The Octagon (Sep 24, 2011)

Impressive stuff here from England, apart from a few mistakes.


----------



## mattie (Sep 24, 2011)

NZ looking ominous.


----------



## gabi (Sep 24, 2011)

Henry seems to be suffering from an embarrassment of riches. in the backs anyway. that was the case in the last world cup too - arggh. he's got to start starting players in the same position they've trained in all week.

i got a bad feeling about this cup, come the knockouts. france could clearly field a far stronger side and they will if we meet them in the final.


----------



## Karac (Sep 24, 2011)

gabi said:


> Henry seems to be suffering from an embarrassment of riches. in the backs anyway. that was the case in the last world cup too - arggh. he's got to start starting players in the same position they've trained in all week.
> 
> i got a bad feeling about this cup, come the knockouts. france could clearly field a far stronger side and they will if we meet them in the final.


The ABs looked terrifying in that match-at least in the first half-the French seemed totally rattled after the first 10 mins of great French play-even when the ABs took their foot off the gas in the 2nd half and the French came back at them they responded with a straight try
Its going to be a shit hot team that beats the ABs in this tournament-SA,Aus,France-possibly England,Ireland or dare i say it Wales playing out of their skins on a lucky day


----------



## Dandred (Sep 24, 2011)

Why do the all blacks have 15 points for three wins and all the other teams that have won three games have 14?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/rugby_union/tables/default.stm


----------



## N_igma (Sep 24, 2011)

Dandred said:


> Why do the all blacks have 15 points for three wins and all the other teams that have won three games have 14?
> 
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/rugby_union/tables/default.stm



South Africa and England lost a bonus point to Wales and Argentina respectively.


----------



## Dandred (Sep 25, 2011)

N_igma said:


> South Africa and England lost a bonus point to Wales and Argentina respectively.


 
How does the bonus point thing work then?


----------



## 1927 (Sep 25, 2011)

Dandred said:


> How does the bonus point thing work then?



Think there is a severe case of deja vu in this thread, either that or laziness!

Winning team can get a bonus point by scoring 4 tries, losing team can get a bonus point by losing by less than 7points.


N_igma said:


> South Africa and England lost a bonus point to Wales and Argentina respectively.



Well they didnt lose one, they just didnt win one. I both cases it would have incredibly arrogant of SA or Enh;land to have gone into the games expecting a bonus point so hardly lost anything.


----------



## Termite Man (Sep 25, 2011)

The end to this scotland game is quite good.


----------



## Termite Man (Sep 25, 2011)

looking at the table , for scotland to get out of the group stage they will need to beat England and score 4 tries doing it (and not have England score lots of tries and get a bonus point as well, assuming Argentina get a bonus point against Georgia.


----------



## gabi (Sep 25, 2011)

it has to be asked - why haven't northern hem teams adapted to the rule changes? they're still playing like it's 1999.

the scot game today was entertaining but it did feel like a time warp.


----------



## Termite Man (Sep 25, 2011)

gabi said:


> it has to be asked - why haven't northern hem teams adapted to the rule changes? they're still playing like it's 1999.
> 
> the scot game today was entertaining but it did feel like a time warp.



rule changes


----------



## gabi (Sep 25, 2011)

yeh. basically encouraging faster rugby.

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...ind-rule-changes-to-their-liking-2053512.html


----------



## Termite Man (Sep 25, 2011)

gabi said:


> yeh. basically encouraging faster rugby.
> 
> http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...ind-rule-changes-to-their-liking-2053512.html


 
so the rules have been changed to something that suits the style of play of the hosts of the WC


----------



## gabi (Sep 25, 2011)

i think to suit TV viewers, and therefore advertisers basically.

The super 15 tournament is far far more entertaining than the english premiership, ime anyway. teams should be throwing the ball around not mauling and rucking constantly.


----------



## N_igma (Sep 25, 2011)

1927 said:


> Well they didnt lose one, they just didnt win one. I both cases it would have incredibly arrogant of SA or Enh;land to have gone into the games expecting a bonus point so hardly lost anything.



Yeh sure I didn't mean it in an arrogant way just the way it came out ya know!


----------



## Dandred (Sep 25, 2011)

gabi said:


> i think to suit TV viewers, and therefore advertisers basically.
> 
> The super 15 tournament is far far more entertaining than the english premiership, ime anyway. teams should be throwing the ball around not mauling and rucking constantly.


 
That is why the rugby league game is far superior to union.


----------



## mattie (Sep 25, 2011)

gabi said:


> i think to suit TV viewers, and therefore advertisers basically.
> 
> The super 15 tournament is far far more entertaining than the english premiership, ime anyway. teams should be throwing the ball around not mauling and rucking constantly.



....if you like basketball and missed tackles galore.

If you actually understnad what rucks and mauls are intended to achieve (the NZ forwards certainly do), you might view it differently.  I'm happy to let the crims carry on with their own take on american wrestling.


----------



## mattie (Sep 25, 2011)

Dandred said:


> That is why the rugby league game is far superior to union.



Non sequitur of the week.


----------



## gabi (Sep 25, 2011)

mattie said:


> ....if you like basketball and missed tackles galore.
> 
> If you actually understnad what rucks and mauls are intended to achieve (the NZ forwards certainly do), you might view it differently. I'm happy to let the crims carry on with their own take on american wrestling.



Er, yes, I do understand what rucks and mauls are (altho it does amuse me that as I rarely post on rugby threads you assume I don't- im a kiwi ffs), and do appreciate their value. But if you're not able to understand that the way NZ and Aus play is not 'basketball' then well. enjoy the flight home. I recommend the beef.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 25, 2011)

Shame about the drop kick going wonky at the end, he's no Jonny McWilkinson.

Cracking play so far, New Zealand's passing yesterday was fucking ace, if they don't win the whole thing I'd be very surprised.


----------



## starfish (Sep 25, 2011)

Once again Scotland fall asleep at the restart after having just scored. Ive lost count of the amount of times we've done that over the years.
Was a good game but a very disappointing ending.


----------



## mattie (Sep 25, 2011)

gabi said:


> Er, yes, I do understand what rucks and mauls are (altho it does amuse me that as I rarely post on rugby threads you assume I don't- im a kiwi ffs), and do appreciate their value. But if you're not able to understand that the way NZ and Aus play is not 'basketball' then well. enjoy the flight home. I recommend the beef.



You post often enough on rugby threads for me to know you know nothing about rugby.

Apparently, in your world, both Brian O'Driscoll and Conrad Smith aren't very good.  I rest my case.

And, when England do indeed take their early flight home, it will be because they aren't good enough at rucks and mauls - NZ and Oz don't play basketball in internationals.  They win breakdown - Pocock and McCaw are masters - and their backs destroy disrupted defences.  Their game plan is based around upsetting defences and exploiting - ruthlessly - the gaps.  They occasionally score of 1st phase, they generally score with their backs running at forwards desperately trying to close holes punctured by quick ruck and excellent tight play (in NZ's case, anyway).

And if, er, you did understand rucks and mauls you'd know that.


----------



## mattie (Sep 25, 2011)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Shame about the drop kick going wonky at the end, he's no Jonny McWilkinson.
> 
> Cracking play so far, New Zealand's passing yesterday was fucking ace, if they don't win the whole thing I'd be very surprised.



I simply can't see past them.  Not one real weakness, depth behind Carter perhaps excepted, and everyone knows the plan and plays to it.


----------



## bendeus (Sep 25, 2011)

mattie said:


> I simply can't see past them. Not one real weakness, depth behind Carter perhaps excepted, and everyone knows the plan and plays to it.



Agreed, unless maybe the crack Bokke germ warfare unit are limbering up for another pop


----------



## bendeus (Sep 25, 2011)

Dandred said:


> That is why the rugby league game is far superior to union.



Awesome post.


----------



## gabi (Sep 25, 2011)

mattie said:


> You post often enough on rugby threads for me to know you know nothing about rugby.
> 
> Apparently, in your world, both Brian O'Driscoll and Conrad Smith aren't very good. I rest my case.
> 
> ...



No, never commented on B'Od, I dont think - not much point really. he's adequate enough. nothing more.

I think you'll find what I said about Smith however was that SBW is a better player (imo). Not quite the same as saying Smith is no good. He is, I'd just rather watch Williams. I appreciate Smith's abilities as an enforcer tho. He's proper old school. I'd agree it's a silly comparison to make tho, totally different kettles of fish. I think i posted that when i was a lil spannered (not unusual)..


----------



## bendeus (Sep 25, 2011)

gabi said:


> No, never commented on B'Od, I dont think - not much point really. he's adequate enough. nothing more.


----------



## gabi (Sep 26, 2011)

Sorry, let me rephrase that. Brian O'Driscoll is the greatest player in the world ever. Seriously. I've never seen a greater standoff than Brian O'Driscoll. He's the greatest. Seriously. I've never seen a greater centre than Brian O'Driscoll. Seriously.


----------



## 1927 (Sep 26, 2011)

I know it was only Namibia, but Wales showed a ruthlessness in that game that we rarely see form them, we usually fail to put minnows away like that. Promising perfromances form North, Byrne and Ryan Jones. we seem to have a bit of strength in depth. I'm not making any predictions, but think my interest in RWC 2011 may last a bit longer than first envisaged.


----------



## editor (Sep 26, 2011)

Nicely done, Wales


----------



## gabi (Sep 26, 2011)

yeh - good to see them pretty much through to the quarters. fiji next tho which you'll win, but most sides usually sustain a couple of injuries against em given their style of 'play'. should probably rest the key players.


----------



## gabi (Sep 26, 2011)

the french coach was clearly watching a different game to the one i saw on the weekend 



> "Like me, they are frustrated but they felt strong. They saw they could measure up to the All Blacks, especially in the second half when we could have feared some sort of disintegration after the try we conceded.
> 
> "But we held on, we followed the pace, and that is interesting."



this guy seems as mental as the manager of their football team in the last world cup.


----------



## elfman (Sep 26, 2011)

gabi said:


> yeh - good to see them pretty much through to the quarters. fiji next tho which you'll win, but most sides usually sustain a couple of injuries against em given their style of 'play'. should probably rest the key players.



I don't think they'll rest many players. Didn't Wales lose to them in the last world cup? I know Samoa won't beat SA but it would be a bit risky to rest players for the Fiji game imo. Plus you want to build up momentum going into the knockout stages


----------



## mattie (Sep 26, 2011)

gabi said:


> the french coach was clearly watching a different game to the one i saw on the weekend
> 
> this guy seems as mental as the manager of their football team in the last world cup.



What he said was true, at least France didn't crumble and dragged some respectability into the game, but only after NZ had already put it to bed. Whether France could keep up with a NZ team who were not coasting is a different question. Highly doubtful, is about as positive as it gets for France. And, to be fair, that holds for pretty much every other team.

Keeping to the spirit of French coaches, it's true that Lievremont does like to say odd things though:
http://www.espnscrum.com/2011-rugby-world-cup/rugby/story/150310.html


----------



## gabi (Sep 26, 2011)

i dont really buy the 'momentum' thing - nz go into every second round of the world cup unbeaten and then promptly get beaten either at that stage or in the semis.

fiji actually seem to prefer the 'big hit' than crossing the line. i wouldnt risk little shane williams against that.


----------



## gabi (Sep 26, 2011)

mattie said:


> What he said was true, at least France didn't crumble and dragged some respectability into the game, but only after NZ had already put it to bed. Whether France could keep up with a NZ team who were not coasting is a different question. Highly doubtful, is about as positive as it gets for France. And, to be fair, that holds for pretty much every other team.
> 
> Keeping to the spirit of French coaches, it's true that Lievremont does like to say odd things though:
> http://www.espnscrum.com/2011-rugby-world-cup/rugby/story/150310.html



crikey... truly bonkers. gotta love the french... 

they'll prolly still make the final tho even with this nutter pulling the strings.


----------



## mattie (Sep 26, 2011)

gabi said:


> crikey... truly bonkers. gotta love the french...
> 
> they'll prolly still make the final tho even with this nutter pulling the strings.



I think it's worth directly inserting the accompanying image, truly, irredeemably French:






Aw haw hi hon


----------



## 1927 (Sep 26, 2011)

gabi said:


> i dont really buy the 'momentum' thing - nz go into every second round of the world cup unbeaten and then promptly get beaten either at that stage or in the semis.
> 
> fiji actually seem to prefer the 'big hit' than crossing the line. i wouldnt risk little shane williams against that.



Shane isnt likely to be fit anyway. After todays game we have a few options in the backs. Byrne looking good, Jones or Priestland at OH, can rest Hooky and give him more time. North is being muted as a centre partner for Roberts  which would be a massive pairing. Back row looking stronger wuth Ryan finally getting a game and Faletau continuing to do good work. Alun Wyn slotted in there nicely too. I think Gatland is a happy man tonite, and will be thinking he got it right be picking Byrne and persevering with Gethin, SJ and Ryan Jones when others said he had fucked up bigtime. Bring on the paddies, and anything is possible after that. Could be a massive tournament for us now and I didnt expect us to get out of the group!


----------



## mattie (Sep 26, 2011)

I couldn't see how you wouldn't get out of the group, having had fingers burnt by Samoa on a number of occasions.

Missed today's game - no great loss, by the sounds of things - who was at 6?  Lydiate has been impressive (especially defensively) so sad to see him crocked, but gives an opportunity to others - would quite like to see Ryan Jones get back in as a few years back he was excellent.


----------



## 1927 (Sep 26, 2011)

mattie said:


> I couldn't see how you wouldn't get out of the group, having had fingers burnt by Samoa on a number of occasions.
> 
> Missed today's game - no great loss, by the sounds of things - who was at 6? Lydiate has been impressive (especially defensively) so sad to see him crocked, but gives an opportunity to others - would quite like to see Ryan Jones get back in as a few years back he was excellent.



Ryan Jones had a good game at 6 and good to see that even after a win like that Gatland isnt happy after all. I think we have come a long way in the last 6 weeks and expectation levels are rising.


----------



## gabi (Sep 26, 2011)

I doubt Warren Gatland managed a grin even when his first child was born tbf


----------



## elfman (Sep 26, 2011)

gabi said:


> i dont really buy the 'momentum' thing - nz go into every second round of the world cup unbeaten and then promptly get beaten either at that stage or in the semis.
> 
> fiji actually seem to prefer the 'big hit' than crossing the line. i wouldnt risk little shane williams against that.



But I don't think any world cup winner has lost a single game in the group stages though. (saying that Wales have already lost and realistically don't have much chance of winning the cup anyway)


----------



## 1927 (Sep 26, 2011)

gabi said:


> I doubt Warren Gatland managed a grin even when his first child was born tbf



He would have taken some positives out of it tho, but agreed there were areas of concern that needed to be worked on!


----------



## 1927 (Sep 26, 2011)

elfman said:


> But I don't think any world cup winner has lost a single game in the group stages though. (saying that Wales have already lost and realistically don't have much chance of winning the cup anyway)



Only one team has ever appeared in a final having lost a game in the tournament. England in 1991 and again in 2007!


----------



## mattie (Sep 26, 2011)

1927 said:


> Only one team has ever appeared in a final having lost a game in the tournament. England in 1991 and again in 2007!



Apparently England were 'lucky' in 2007.


----------



## flypanam (Sep 26, 2011)

"Lucky" come on, with their fast, expansive, natural game how could anyone ever think England were lucky in 2007. I dunno people just have no respect for the horse floggers anymore!

Just for the record, I think BO'D is the best centre player since Timmy Horan and Frank Bunce, I'd rate Conrad Smith the second best.


----------



## gabi (Sep 26, 2011)

He's a decent player. It would be interesting to see him play outside a truly quality fly-half, but as i've not ever seen that it's pretty hard to put him in the same league as bunce and horan.


----------



## flypanam (Sep 26, 2011)

And who would you consider a quality first 5/8th?


----------



## gabi (Sep 26, 2011)

Merhtens was. Carter is, Cooper is - Wilko too. But they're a rare breed.


----------



## flypanam (Sep 26, 2011)

Fair enough. So by your reckoning that for an outside centre to be truly outstanding they have to play outside a quality fly. Seeing as O'Driscoll has only had O'Gara, Sexton, Comtepomi  and Wilko in 2001 inside him doesn't that make all he has achieved all the more remarkable beacuse those guys are just plodders, right?

Or can you put down your Tui or Speights take the kiwi dress off and just judge him for what he is. An outstanding player which for all the undoubted off loading skills that SBW has, will never emulate. O'Driscoll has/had everything, outstanding defense witness how he turned over ball against the All Blacks in 2006. Attacking abilities that were only hampered by not having a great pass and an unganly running style.


----------



## flypanam (Sep 26, 2011)

By the way Nick Evans should have made your list. Neil Jenkins too. Lynagh. And for a kiwi to forget Carlos Spencer I'd be ashamed.


----------



## gabi (Sep 26, 2011)

I don't rate the first three as world-class and admit I've forgotten watching him play with Wilkinson in 2001.. will need to youtube that...

On SBW - there's a lot weird of snobbery (even in NZ) against him for his league background. He's a far more gifted player than O'Driscoll or Smith, both of whom clearly work very hard at their game whereas SBW doesn't appear to need/want to.


----------



## flypanam (Sep 26, 2011)

I'm sorry gabi your just wrong. Put SBW into a shit team and see what he does. He'll do fuck all. O'Driscoll and Smith have both played in teams which can only be described as shit (ireland 1990's - 2003) Underachieving (Leinster 1999-2006) and Wellington (forever) Hurricans (underachieving par excellence) and have still excelled.

Go on write to the NZ RFU ask him to be put into Tasman Makos (or whatever) he'll throw a strop and walk out and box.

BTW Go the Warriors! (I love league too)


----------



## 1927 (Sep 26, 2011)

flypanam said:


> By the way Nick Evans should have made your list. Neil Jenkins too. Lynagh. And for a kiwi to forget Carlos Spencer I'd be ashamed.



Neil Jenkins was a number 10, not an outside half, in the same way Grant Fox would never make a list of great OH's.


----------



## mattie (Sep 26, 2011)

I realise that sport is generally a matter of opinion, but SBW 'more gifted' than O'Driscoll?

SBW is a one-trick pony, as least as far as the world stage goes.  O'Driscoll's got the lot.

And how you don't rate Nick Evans I'll never know.  Poor sod suffers from being kiwi in an era of Carter, he'd walk into many other international teams.


----------



## gabi (Sep 26, 2011)

Evans chooses to play in Europe. The NZRU for better or for worse has a policy of not selecting non-NZ based players. he effectively resigned from the international game the day he took his hundreds of thousands of quid or whatever he earns here.

I dont agree SBW is a one-trick pony but yes, you're right - sport is a matter of opinion. Smith/SBW are clearly different players but there's definitely a whiff of snobbery around former league players - jason robinson suffered the same.


----------



## mattie (Sep 26, 2011)

Evans was stuck behind Carter with implications for his career, and for the very same reasons Donald is coming to Bath next season he made the choice to up sticks. Evans left because he was dropped in 2008, he wasn't dropped because he left.

I'm also not sure who you're referring to with Jason Robinson, he was revered by pretty much all who saw him. Even the Saffas applauded him off the field when he popped a hamstring in 2007. Andy Farrell, Shontayne Hape and others have had good receptions. I think SBW has had a poorer reception because he's been paid to the eyeballs despite not being as good as the current incumbents. He really isn't as good as Smith, who's agile, tricky, intelligent and can distribute. SBW is just strong.

(let me just clarify - SBW is not a bad player, but has a single strength (literally, strength) which is all that separates him and 'average' professional rugby players.  If utilised correctly, I can see him doing great damage, but unlike players like O'Driscoll and Smith, he's unlikely to do much on his own.)


----------



## mattie (Sep 26, 2011)

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,3818_7204631,00.html

Should be Narraway.

Not sure quite what he's done to piss Jonno off so much that a chubby kiwi gets in ahead of him.  I thought the point of the Saxons meant that anyone in it was next cab off the rank for the full squad.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Sep 26, 2011)

gabi said:


> I dont agree SBW is a one-trick pony but yes, you're right - sport is a matter of opinion. Smith/SBW are clearly different players but there's definitely a whiff of snobbery around former league players - jason robinson suffered the same.


That's because most of them are rubbish.


----------



## elfman (Sep 27, 2011)

gabi said:


> I dont agree SBW is a one-trick pony but yes, you're right - sport is a matter of opinion. Smith/SBW are clearly different players but there's definitely a whiff of snobbery around former league players - jason robinson suffered the same.



I never thought JR suffered from that. Everyone seemed to love him from what I could see anyway.


----------



## Termite Man (Sep 27, 2011)

Fucking ITV. I didn't realise there was rugby on the TV today because it wasn't on ITV.

Turns out they put it on ITV4 and I didn't realise. Cunts.


----------



## flypanam (Sep 27, 2011)

Great game it was too. Van der Merwe was excellent as was Adam Cheesburger. Looks like Canada have secured that 3 spot. Automatic qualification and funding for 2015.


----------



## bendeus (Sep 27, 2011)

mattie said:


> I couldn't see how you wouldn't get out of the group, having had fingers burnt by Samoa on a number of occasions.
> 
> Missed today's game - no great loss, by the sounds of things - who was at 6? Lydiate has been impressive (especially defensively) so sad to see him crocked, but gives an opportunity to others - would quite like to see Ryan Jones get back in as a few years back he was excellent.



Mattie, Ryan Jones was excellent last season (mainly at 4 and 6), and has been excellent in the few appearances he's put in this season. What he lacks in explosive power he now more than makes up for in nous, leadership and an incredible work ethic. He looked all at sea a few seasons ago when he had lost that extra yard and was being used alongside Andy Powell and Martyn Williams. Nowadays, with the carrying of Warburton, Bradley and Faletau, and the much clearer balance across the backrow, Ryan is excelling, particularly on the deck. I'd say he's still Wales' best 6, and having competition there with the class of Lydiate, while not quite Irish, presents a bloody decent selection headache.


----------



## bendeus (Sep 27, 2011)

sleaterkinney said:


> That's because most of them are rubbish.



Dandred would disagree.


----------



## bendeus (Sep 27, 2011)

1927 said:


> Neil Jenkins was a number 10, not an outside half, in the same way Grant Fox would never make a list of great OH's.



Aye. Jinks was never a 'great'. He remains, in my opinion, the greatest place kicker the world has ever seen (hence his inclusion at 15 for the Lions tests against the Bokke, and his unbelievable 44 successive kicks without missing). If my life depended on the ball going between the posts, I'd choose Jughead above all others.


----------



## bendeus (Sep 27, 2011)

gabi said:


> I don't rate the first three as world-class and admit I've forgotten watching him play with Wilkinson in 2001.. will need to youtube that...
> 
> On SBW - there's a lot weird of snobbery (even in NZ) against him for his league background. He's a far more gifted player than O'Driscoll or Smith, both of whom clearly work very hard at their game whereas SBW doesn't appear to need/want to.



Sorry Gabi, but this is patent rubbish of the highest order. Could you outline SBW's gifts that don't involve him being fucking enormous and good at offloading? I think Flypanam has already put you right on the aspects of BO'D's play that, were it not for the existence of Richie McCaw, would have made him the greatest player of his generation.


----------



## bendeus (Sep 27, 2011)

flypanam said:


> Fair enough. So by your reckoning that for an outside centre to be truly outstanding they have to play outside a quality fly. *Seeing as O'Driscoll has only had O'Gara, Sexton, Comtepomi and Wilko in 2001* inside him doesn't that make all he has achieved all the more remarkable beacuse those guys are just plodders, right?
> 
> Or can you put down your Tui or Speights take the kiwi dress off and just judge him for what he is. An outstanding player which for all the undoubted off loading skills that SBW has, will never emulate. O'Driscoll has/had everything, outstanding defense witness how he turned over ball against the All Blacks in 2006. Attacking abilities that were only hampered by not having a great pass and an unganly running style.



You forgot Wellies


----------



## bendeus (Sep 27, 2011)

And talking of legends; the five-times Lion, double slam winning greatest loosehead prop of the modern era was on song again yesterday. I appreciate it was against Namibia, and I respect the fact that they were knackered, but seeing a prop run it in from 30 yards and incorporating a sidestep and two dummies, as well as grounding the ball through three tacklers, is really quite, quite special. Surely one of the greatest front row tries ever scored? We luvs ya, Geth, you fucking freak of nature:


----------



## flypanam (Sep 27, 2011)

That was awesome by Jenkins but I'm still shocked by actually seeing Steve Walsh 'run'.  And not a Macca Dees anywhere in sight.


----------



## bendeus (Sep 27, 2011)

Aye, two superbly unfamiliar creatures in majestic, full flight


----------



## gabi (Sep 27, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Sorry Gabi, but this is patent rubbish of the highest order. Could you outline SBW's gifts that don't involve him being *fucking enormous and good at offloading?* I think Flypanam has already put you right on the aspects of BO'D's play that, were it not for the existence of Richie McCaw, would have made him the greatest player of his generation.



I dont need to outline them. You just did. Those two qualities alone outweigh anything B'OD is capable of. He makes things happen. O'Driscoll is reactionary - perfectly adequate - perhaps one of the sharpest players the NH has produced in the last 15 years or so but he'd struggle to get into the AB's performance squad.


----------



## bendeus (Sep 27, 2011)

gabi said:


> I dont need to outline them. You just did. Those two qualities alone outweigh anything B'OD is capable of. He makes things happen. O'Driscoll is reactionary - perfectly adequate - perhaps one of the sharpest players the NH has produced in the last 15 years or so but he'd struggle to get into the AB's performance squad.



Brilliant. Now try writing that again as though you had a fucking clue what you were on about


----------



## bendeus (Sep 27, 2011)

Oh, and by the way, it's lines like this:



> O'Driscoll is reactionary - perfectly adequate - perhaps one of the sharpest players the NH has produced in the last 15 years or so but he'd struggle to get into the AB's performance squad



That saw me call you entirely correctly as a crowing Kiwi bastard in the first place.


----------



## 1927 (Sep 27, 2011)

I hate BOD with a passion the horrible little bastard, however, if he isnt capable of getting anywhere near the NZ team why were they so concerned about him in 2005 that they dumped him out of the tour in the opening minutes of the first test?


----------



## bendeus (Sep 27, 2011)

1927 said:


> I hate BOD with a passion the horrible little bastard, however, if he isnt capable of getting anywhere near the NZ team why were they so concerned about him in 2005 that they dumped him out of the tour in the opening minutes of the first test?



The NZ *squad*, old chap. And anyway, it was an accident that two players lifted him over their heads and propelled him into the dirt in the ancient Maori ritual of _Kapa Te Spea Taka'l_


----------



## sleaterkinney (Sep 27, 2011)

gabi said:


> O'Driscoll is reactionary - perfectly adequate


That's complete bollocks, you don't have a clue.


----------



## elfman (Sep 28, 2011)

> Ireland fullback Geordan Murphy has come up with a novel way of dealing with Italy prop Martin Castrogiovanni when their teams meet at the Rugby World Cup on Sunday.
> 
> 
> "I'm thinking of leaving some baskets of chips in the corners," Murphy said Wednesday. "That should do it. The amount he eats, it should distract him quite nicely."





http://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby-world-cup-2011/news/article.cfm?c_id=522&objectid=10755029


----------



## Termite Man (Sep 28, 2011)

Why do they have to play that stupid Mexican sounding music every time they kick off after someone scores


----------



## flypanam (Sep 28, 2011)

This galling...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2011/sep/27/rugby-world-cup-revenue
and this is priceless...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2011/sep/27/rugby-world-cup-2011-new-zealand

will discuss later!


----------



## 1927 (Sep 28, 2011)

flypanam said:


> This galling...
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2011/sep/27/rugby-world-cup-revenue
> and this is priceless...
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2011/sep/27/rugby-world-cup-2011-new-zealand
> ...


 I for one wouldnt miss us playing NZ every autumn, and if we 
send back all the NZ coaches in Europe where are they going to gain the experience needed to be international coaches? The All Blacks have some of the most lucrative sponsorship deals in world rugby, if it isnt enough for you, tough shit you arrogant cunts!


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 28, 2011)

flypanam said:


> This galling...
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2011/sep/27/rugby-world-cup-revenue
> and this is priceless...
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2011/sep/27/rugby-world-cup-2011-new-zealand
> ...



Whilst by threatening to pull out of a world cup does make it seem like you think you are bigger then the sport, the All Blacks seemingly do have a point. The world cup should be a massive marketing opportunity for everyone not just the IRB, so it doesnt sit right that it should end up costing the teams so much money. Of course it could be argued that a succesful world cup leads to a major increase in revenue such as shirt sales etc.

However, it should be said that as soon as you start trying to throw your weight around it makes you look a bit of a dick and you quickly become isolated, just look at English national football.


----------



## elfman (Sep 28, 2011)

But don't the IRB doe all this so the 'lesser' nations can afford to compete?

Also, stealing players? How many Pacific Islanders do NZ have in their squad every WC?

I'm not saying that they're wrong in what they say but it just seems a bit hypocritical in ways...


----------



## Termite Man (Sep 28, 2011)

elfman said:


> But don't the IRB doe all this so the 'lesser' nations can afford to compete?
> 
> Also, stealing players? How many Pacific Islanders do NZ have in their squad every WC?
> 
> I'm not saying that they're wrong in what they say but it just seems a bit hypocritical in ways...


after the Romania/Georgia game they were talking about the rest period and how the lower tier teams are given less time to recover. If rugby wants to be taken seriously they need to stop pandering to the top tier teams and have an equal and fair treatment of all the rugby playing nations.


----------



## 1927 (Sep 28, 2011)

To argue that the World cup costs them money is missing the point. The Abs know, like every oither nation, that their business will have reduced revenue one year in every 4 and their business model should make allowances for it. If they withdraw from the RWC, and increase their prices for touring NH countries every autumn. how long do they think they will maintain their marketability to sponsors? If the rest of the world sent them into isolation they would be completely unmarketable without anyone to play. The Fijians, Tongans etc may well decide to play for their own countries and their dominance will subside, bring it on I say. Golf has not been harmed too much by the non appearnce of Tiger Woods, if NZ took a backward step it would give everyone else a chance, not that they are exactly that succesful at RWCs historically, and may well increase interest in the erst of the world.

Cant wait for Gabi to wade into this one!


----------



## 1927 (Sep 28, 2011)

Termite Man said:


> after the Romania/Georgia game they were talking about the rest period and how the lower tier teams are given less time to recover. If rugby wants to be taken seriously they need to stop pandering to the top tier teams and have an equal and fair treatment of all the rugby playing nations.


The lesser teams need to be careful what they pray for. the easiest way round that particular problem is to reduce the next world cup to 4 groups of 4 so every team plays every weekend and will damage the lesser nations.


----------



## Termite Man (Sep 28, 2011)

1927 said:


> The lesser teams need to be careful what they pray for. the easiest way round that particular problem is to reduce the next world cup to 4 groups of 4 so every team plays every weekend and will damage the lesser nations.



but he issue is top tier teams are given longer to recover (or thats what they were getting at on the TV), if you have a fair tournament then you can't treat teams differently. Never mind the fact that having shorter rest periods for the lower tier teams can help the upper tier teams later in the tournament eg Argentina are playing gerogia 4 days after georgias game today, surely that will give them an advantage over scotland who played them in their first game of the tournament, especially with the bonus points for scoring 4 tries etc.


----------



## gabi (Sep 28, 2011)

1927 said:


> The Fijians, Tongans etc may well decide to play for their own countries and their dominance will subside, bring it on I say



Precisely how many Fijians and Tongans are in the current All Black side..?

Havent caught up with this issue properly but from what i can tell, I think the NZRU has a fairly valid point. In that money should be more evenly distributed.


----------



## 1927 (Sep 28, 2011)

gabi said:


> Precisely how many Fijians and Tongans are in the current All Black side..?
> 
> Havent caught up with this issue properly but from what i can tell, I think the NZRU has a fairly valid point. In that money should be more evenly distributed.



If money was more evenly distirbuted do you think NZ would get more or less than they have now? serious question by the way.


----------



## gabi (Sep 28, 2011)

1927 said:


> If money was more evenly distirbuted do you think NZ would get more or less than they have now? serious question by the way.



Well if we look at the Premier League model for instance, more.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2011/may/24/manchester-united-premier-league-tv

If you can assume that the All Blacks = Man United in terms of relative popularity. The Premier League is undoubtedly a well run business, for all its other faults.


----------



## 1927 (Sep 28, 2011)

gabi said:


> Well if we look at the Premier League model for instance, more.
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2011/may/24/manchester-united-premier-league-tv
> 
> If you can assume that the All Blacks = Man United in terms of relative popularity. The Premier League is undoubtedly a well run business, for all its other faults.


We're not talking about the EPL, we are talking about rugby, do you think the AB's would have more or less money of it was more evenly distributed? More or less, its a one word answer.


----------



## gabi (Sep 28, 2011)

I said... more.

It's ludicrous that they're running at a massive loss while the IRB is fucking minted.


----------



## 1927 (Sep 28, 2011)

gabi said:


> I said... more.
> 
> It's ludicrous that they're running at a massive loss while the IRB is fucking minted.



Why?


----------



## elfman (Sep 28, 2011)

gabi said:


> I said... more.
> 
> It's ludicrous that they're running at a massive loss while the IRB is fucking minted.



But the IRB don't just keep all the money do they? They distribute it to other unions for the development of the game...

I'm not saying that NZ should make such a big loss but they're playing the victim and only trying to blame someone else when they should also try adjust they're business model to fit the conditions.


----------



## 1927 (Sep 28, 2011)

NZRU are the only one of the Tier 1 nations that operates at a loss. I think they need to learn to live within their means.


----------



## 1927 (Sep 28, 2011)

If the Lions stopped touring NZ every 12 years they would be bankrupt. The last tour was worth £34.5 million to NZRU.


----------



## 1927 (Sep 28, 2011)

gabi said:


> Well if we look at the Premier League model for instance, more.
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2011/may/24/manchester-united-premier-league-tv
> 
> If you can assume that the All Blacks = Man United in terms of relative popularity. The Premier League is undoubtedly a well run business, for all its other faults.



Man United win cups tho!


----------



## flypanam (Sep 28, 2011)

Well, it seems that they are pretty pissed that they are losing money for staging this event. Strange since they lobbied so fucking hard to get it. The IRFU acted shamefully and voted for NZ against Japan so did other European nations. They wanted to host the event for two reasons, first they thought that after winning in France they could be the first country to cliam back to back titles, secondly at the height of the credit bubble they thought vistor numbers would go through the roof. Wrong, on the first, and pudding headed on the second.

Now because they are the 'Brand' (I'm surprised they haven't copyrighted the colour Black) they think they should take money away from developing club games in the country in which they tour. Thats crazy, all so they can keep their claim to be a great Rugby nation. I'd be happy for them to get a little extra gate receipt from Ireland if they started to help the PI countries and tour there every year while offereing Samoa, Fiji and Tonga a chance to compete in the 4 nations.

Now I'm stuck in a mire, do I hope they win this one so them and their hype don't turn up in 2015, or do I hope they choke and shut the fuck up and turn up next time?


----------



## 1927 (Sep 28, 2011)

Their argument diesnt appear to be that they are losing money by staging the event, more that they are losing money just because the RWC is taking place at all. In RWC year they have to curtail their globetrotting round the NH for lucrative autumn series matches. What they need to realise is that their business is cylcical and that every four years there will be a drop in revenue because of RWC, in the same way that every 12 years they have a massive uplift in revenue because of a Lions tour.

Surprisingly figures I found for RU revenues around the world indicate that Wales punches well above its weight having the 3rd highest revenue of any RU in the wolrd, behind England and France.

If NZ win this one and therefore one would imagine revenue streams will increase, will they still be so eager not to enter next time? i hope they choke again and get beat by Wales/Ireland/France in the final(if they ahvent been knocked out by the Boks before that.


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 28, 2011)

gabi said:


> It's ludicrous that they're running at a massive loss while the IRB is fucking minted.



Do you think threatening to effectively boycott a world cup is the right way to go about things? I also think they may have a point but I don't think this is the correct way to go about things, it makes them look like spoilt pricks. NZ need the world cup more than the world cup needs NZ, compromise on both sides is clearly the way forward not throwing a pissy fit.

Incidentally what does everyone think of the actual hosting of the event so far? I've been a bit underwhelmed myself, some poor stadia (cricket grounds without shelter for fans?) and quite a few empty seats.


----------



## 1927 (Sep 28, 2011)

Teaboy said:


> Do you think threatening to effectively boycott a world cup is the right way to go about things? I also think they may have a point but I don't think this is the correct way to go about things, it makes them look like spoilt pricks. NZ need the world cup more than the world cup needs NZ, compromise on both sides is clearly the way forward not throwing a pissy fit.
> 
> Incidentally what does everyone think of the actual hosting of the event so far? I've been a bit underwhelmed myself, some poor stadia (cricket grounds without shelter for fans?) and quite a few empty seats.



Maybe rugby is not quite as popular in NZ as they would have us believe!


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 28, 2011)

tbf I wouldent want to turn up in the pissing rain to watch Fiji v Tonga, or something.  Not a great experience for the fans getting soaked and being miles from the pitch.


----------



## flypanam (Sep 28, 2011)

So this is probably nothing more than Steve Tew making trouble...2009/10 was a bad year too

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=10640049

Anyway I think the Kiwi's have done a good job hosting the event, I was glad to see that fans in Napier went to Japan v Canada game dressed as rising suns and Maple leafs. The otrganising has been unfair to Samoa etc and has to be looked at but overall it's been a pretty decent WC so far...


----------



## gabi (Sep 28, 2011)

Teaboy said:


> Do you think threatening to effectively boycott a world cup is the right way to go about things? I also think they may have a point but I don't think this is the correct way to go about things, it makes them look like spoilt pricks. NZ need the world cup more than the world cup needs NZ, compromise on both sides is clearly the way forward not throwing a pissy fit.
> 
> Incidentally what does everyone think of the actual hosting of the event so far? I've been a bit underwhelmed myself, some poor stadia (cricket grounds without shelter for fans?) and quite a few empty seats.



Most games have been sold out i think, altho I think Russia v Georgia may not have been for obvious reasons..

I hear from friends/family that it's been good times down there so far. I'd actually quite like to be in NZ for it, which is a rare thing.

Coming back to the distribution, I've no idea what formula the IRB uses to cut up the money, or what deals the NZRU cuts with the likes of the Welsh union when they sell out every single game they play there and attract huge TV audiences (as they do across the NH). Do these deals get done thru the IRB, or individual unions?

I'd agree that the NZRU needs to look at its management though, it's nuts that a 'brand' as big as the All Blacks be losing money (it's not just WC years that they do, they lost a pretty penny last year too)


----------



## flypanam (Sep 28, 2011)

The IRB formula should be simple:

Small nations get a greater share of the pot

Large nations contribute to the pot and make their own revenues. For instance if the AB' win the WC they should renegioate their contract with Addidas or whoever is prepared to shell out stupid money to make their jersey.


----------



## gabi (Sep 28, 2011)

^^^ That doesn't make sense at all. I'd go for the Premier League model of rewarding the teams on a combination of performance and the amount of time they spend on the idiot box while still allowing for smaller teams who obviously aren't going to get massive box-office receipts or money from prime time tv slots.


----------



## 1927 (Sep 28, 2011)

gabi said:


> ^^^ That doesn't make sense at all. I'd go for the Premier League model of rewarding the teams on a combination of performance and the amount of time they spend on the idiot box while still allowing for smaller teams who obviously aren't going to get massive box-office receipts or money from prime time tv slots.



I bet you would. The Premiership model is flawed becuase successful teams have bigger deals, become more successful and get on TV more which brings in more revenue etc.

The NFL model is a better one where ALL revenues, including tv, tickets, even merchandise gets pooled and split evenly.

In your model where would you think the smaller teams who you admit have low gate receipts and  money from TV are going to get their money from?


----------



## mattie (Sep 28, 2011)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/15069848.stm



Bring it the fuck on.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Sep 28, 2011)

1927 said:


> Surprisingly figures I found for RU revenues around the world indicate that Wales punches well above its weight having the 3rd highest revenue of any RU in the wolrd, behind England and France.


It's the millennium stadium innit.


----------



## Red Faction (Sep 29, 2011)

flypanam said:


> Well, it seems that they are pretty pissed that they are losing money for staging this event. Strange since they lobbied so fucking hard to get it. The IRFU acted shamefully and voted for NZ against Japan so did other European nations. They wanted to host the event for two reasons, first they thought that after winning in France they could be the first country to cliam back to back titles, secondly at the height of the credit bubble they thought vistor numbers would go through the roof. Wrong, on the first, and pudding headed on the second.
> 
> Now because they are the 'Brand' (I'm surprised they haven't copyrighted the colour Black) they think they should take money away from developing club games in the country in which they tour. Thats crazy, all so they can keep their claim to be a great Rugby nation. I'd be happy for them to get a little extra gate receipt from Ireland if they started to help the PI countries and tour there every year while offereing Samoa, Fiji and Tonga a chance to compete in the 4 nations.
> 
> Now I'm stuck in a mire, do I hope they win this one so them and their hype don't turn up in 2015, or do I hope they choke and shut the fuck up and turn up next time?


 
It was a great decision to vote against japan.

Earthquake and all...


----------



## Termite Man (Sep 29, 2011)

Red Faction said:


> It was a great decision to vote against japan.
> 
> Earthquake and all...



Christchurch


----------



## flypanam (Sep 29, 2011)

gabi said:


> ^^^ That doesn't make sense at all. I'd go for the Premier League model of rewarding the teams on a combination of performance and the amount of time they spend on the idiot box while still allowing for smaller teams who obviously aren't going to get massive box-office receipts or money from prime time tv slots.



Looks like your right that is the model they are striving for. I talked to a mate who has a friend working for NZRU, who alledgedly supported the idea of all tour games and ultimately the WC to be available only on Sky and now the aussies have waded in probably Fox. All owned by one R. Murdoch. Ho fuckin hum.

I think the last time something like this cropped up England were jettisoned from the then 5 nations! Just watch the Bedisloe cup gradually morph into a 'World Series.'

Anyway I see O'Connell sat out training again and that Italy a pretty confident about their ability to do us. Hope we beat em. So c'mon Canda, Samoa and Japan!


----------



## flypanam (Sep 29, 2011)

Red Faction said:


> It was a great decision to vote against japan.
> 
> Earthquake and all...



Okay your right in hindsight, but the expansion of the game beyond Limerick and Cork, means the game has to be taken to territories where there is a chance of good exposure. I don't see why they don't consider the US. After all they put on a fairly decent football WC. They could centre teams around ethnic centres like New York for Italy, Boston for Ireland, El paso for england etc. the physical nature and highish scores should be able to attract a significant number of fans to games. Maybe make a profit out of it too.


----------



## 1927 (Sep 29, 2011)

I hope Ireland beat Italy as an Irish loss will swing Aussies back into the Welsh half of the draw. No thanks!


----------



## 1927 (Sep 29, 2011)

flypanam said:


> Okay your right in hindsight, but the expansion of the game beyond Limerick and Cork, means the game has to be taken to territories where there is a chance of good exposure. I don't see why they don't consider the US. After all they put on a fairly decent football WC. They could centre teams around ethnic centres like New York for Italy, Boston for Ireland, El paso for england etc. the physical nature and highish scores should be able to attract a significant number of fans to games. Maybe make a profit out of it too.



I wonder if the powerhouses of world rugby in the SH especially would wlecome more exposure to rugby in the US. I have always believed that ultimately the US will be the best team in the world once they atke the game seriously. A RWC in USA will only bring forward that date.


----------



## bendeus (Sep 29, 2011)

1927 said:


> I hope Ireland beat Italy as an Irish loss will swing Aussies back into the Welsh half of the draw. No thanks!



I would far prefer to play Aus than Ireland in the QF. They're decimated by injuries and have no scrum, which incidentally is our strongest area. Ireland have long been our bogey team. On paper we are the better side going into the knockout matches, in reality, or more specifically, in our heads, I'm not so sure.


----------



## bendeus (Sep 29, 2011)

1927 said:


> I wonder if the powerhouses of world rugby in the SH especially would wlecome more exposure to rugby in the US. I have always believed that ultimately the US will be the best team in the world once they atke the game seriously. A RWC in USA will only bring forward that date.



Please, god, no!

Mind you, at least it would settle Bendy's annual 'most hated rugby nation' conundrum.


----------



## bendeus (Sep 29, 2011)

sleaterkinney said:


> It's the millennium stadium innit.



Aye. But it's paying back an absolute fuckload of debt.


----------



## Red Faction (Sep 29, 2011)

Termite Man said:


> Christchurch


more recent?
more damaging?





			
				bendy said:
			
		

> Aye. But it's paying back an absolute fuckload of debt.


well worth it!  not having been to new lansdowne, i reckon it's the best stadium in all of europe, second only to Thomond Park ;-)

I do think that the IRB have to stick to their guns, either they believe in exporting rugby world-wide, or they don't.
Clearly the former would be more lucrative, at the time I was very surprised that Japan didn't get the nod, especially given the way they hosted the soccer world cup with South Korea.

I'm a little concerned re: Italy. We played a shocker against them in the 6N, only the flair of ROG kept us in.
They're sounding confident they'll monster us in the forwards, I'm glad we gave ours a rest for Russia, but am concerned with how they intend to cope in the knockout stages with fatigue etc.

We just don't have sufficient strength in depth at top level.

I'm also enjoying all this Scottish chatter about having to raise their game etc.
How crushing it would be to see them play out of their skins, and get knocked out all the same.


----------



## gabi (Sep 29, 2011)

flypanam said:


> Looks like your right that is the model they are striving for. I talked to a mate who has a friend working for NZRU, who alledgedly supported the idea of all tour games and ultimately the WC to be available only on Sky and now the aussies have waded in probably Fox. All owned by one R. Murdoch. Ho fuckin hum.
> 
> I think the last time something like this cropped up England were jettisoned from the then 5 nations! Just watch the Bedisloe cup gradually morph into a 'World Series.'



The Bledisloe Cup has already been absorbed into the Tri-Nations. It's almost an afterthought these days...

I don't see any reason why NZ and Aus should lose shedloads of money by travelling to Europe in 2015 to fill your stadia every time they visit.. I really dont.

It's reminscient of United choosing to opt out of the FA Cup in order to travel to South America to compete in the World Club Cup or whatever they call that shit - it wasn't in their commercial interests to travel to Barnsley on a windy wet wednesday when they could be getting a cut of the TV revenue by playing in Sao Paulo.

Get real basically. The fact the WRU is wealthier than the NZRU is laughable. And says it all about the distribution of IRB funds. Enjoy 2015!


----------



## bendeus (Sep 30, 2011)

gabi said:


> The fact the WRU is wealthier than the NZRU is laughable. And says it all about the distribution of IRB funds. Enjoy 2015!



You think that the WRU's 'wealth' has anything to do with the largesse of the IRB?

It's 'wealthier' because it's not located at the arse end of the world, does not (yet) have a weak currency, and because more people turn out to see the national team play than they do in New Zealand. In fact, as a proportion of the entire populace, I'd wager more Taffs watch their side play than any other country.

That said, I'd be quite happy to dispense with the annual show matches every autumn. It has seriously devalued NH/SH matches, and nobody takes it particularly seriously save for the unions, who see it for the cash cow it is.

Interesting that last autumn for the first time saw empty seats at the MS for touring SH sides. Looks like people are waking up to the fact that they're being milked, and that they're getting little of quality in return. Fuck the AIs. Reinstate single team, multi-match test tours every few years. Far more interesting.


----------



## gabi (Sep 30, 2011)

Pfft.... yep, the pound's rockin at the moment compared to the kiwi dollar... 

But, leaving aside basic macro-economics.

Yes - your union does make a shitload out of both sell-out gates for NZ games plus whatever they hawk the rights to the BBC for. And yep, it aint cheap bringing 40 odd players plus support staff all the way from the 'arse end of the world' to beat your arse once every coupla years 

Let's hope the doddery old fucks at the IRB do indeed shoot themselves in the foot here, nay - blow their fucking leg off  coz, lets face it - the growth of rugby in Georgia is far more important than sending the NZRU and ARU bankrupt (for the sake of the global game of course, nothing to do with profits for the 'home unions').


----------



## gabi (Sep 30, 2011)

btw, bendy you might enjoy this (or not).... scroll to the bottom for the vid

a simpler, better time methinks. the accents kill me. not to mention the haircuts.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/...e-Good-the-Bad-and-The-Rugby-doco-re-released


----------



## Termite Man (Sep 30, 2011)

gabi said:


> Yes - your union does make a shitload out of both sell-out gates for NZ games plus whatever they hawk the rights to the BBC for. And yep, it aint cheap bringing 40 odd players plus support staff all the way from the 'arse end of the world' to beat your arse once every coupla years
> .



I'd assume you make money out of these games though, What your saying comes across as NZRU wanting to play the games where they make money but the ones where they don't they want to leave. There needs to be a balance between helping the developing nations and keeping the established sides happy and I don't think thats what NZRU are asking for so IMO they just come across as greedy cunts.


----------



## flypanam (Sep 30, 2011)

gabi said:


> lets face it - the growth of rugby in Georgia is far more important than sending the NZRU and ARU bankrupt (for the sake of the global game of course, nothing to do with profits for the 'home unions').



At last you say something sensible!

Anyway Murray and O'Gara to start against Italy. I jinx Ireland and say we'll win by 10. Looking forward to the Scotland England game hope they knock lumps out of each other.

Did Samoa lose?


----------



## elfman (Sep 30, 2011)

SA v Samoa seemed like a good game. Anyone watch it?

Its really frustrating that I can't watch a lot of these games 

At least I'm going to watch the Eng V Sco game tomorrow


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 30, 2011)

gabi said:


> It's reminscient of United choosing to opt out of the FA Cup in order to travel to South America to compete in the World Club Cup or whatever they call that shit - it wasn't in their commercial interests to travel to Barnsley on a windy wet wednesday when they could be getting a cut of the TV revenue by playing in Sao Paulo.



Actually it really isnt, Utd really didnt want to do this world club cup nonsense, its the last thing they needed mid season, which is why they completly fucked it up first time around.  Second time they had to be persuaded to take it seriously with sympathetic fixture arrangement by the premiership and financial backing from the FA.

Also you seem to keep comparing the All Blacks to Man Utd, its a shit comparison the two are not even close in marketing terms.


----------



## flypanam (Sep 30, 2011)

elfman said:


> SA v Samoa seemed like a good game. Anyone watch it?
> 
> Its really frustrating that I can't watch a lot of these games
> 
> At least I'm going to watch the Eng V Sco game tomorrow



Didn't see it. It was on ITV fucking 4. Fat lot of good that is when the tv at work doesn't have freeview. The ITV execs must have thought really hard about that one. SA and Samoa in the last pool stage game, grudge game from 4 years ago or JEZ KYLES show. Jez wins. To please the mums. I know my old dear would be appalled. Mums of Britain if you want sob stories go to NZFU website. There's a bucket load of misery there.

ITV give us back our WC you cunts.

Elfman, thats good news!


----------



## elfman (Sep 30, 2011)

flypanam said:


> Didn't see it. It was on ITV fucking 4. Fat lot of good that is when the tv at work doesn't have freeview. The ITV execs must have thought really hard about that one. SA and Samoa in the last pool stage game, grudge game from 4 years ago or JEZ KYLES show. Jez wins. To please the mums. I know my old dear would be appalled. Mums of Britain if you want sob stories go to NZFU website. There's a bucket load of misery there.
> 
> ITV give us back our WC you cunts.
> 
> Elfman, thats good news!



Could you not watch it on the internet via ITV website? (I know they let you for the football WC)


----------



## flypanam (Sep 30, 2011)

You see that would require brains. Something that I sorely lack after a night on the 'Black Gold.'


----------



## 1927 (Sep 30, 2011)

gabi said:


> The Bledisloe Cup has already been absorbed into the Tri-Nations. It's almost an afterthought these days...
> 
> I don't see any reason why NZ and Aus should lose shedloads of money by travelling to Europe in 2015 to fill your stadia every time they visit.. I really dont.
> 
> ...



Well its not like NZ are likely to win it anyway, so dont bother coming, see if we fucking care.

I think with their current attitude maybe the Lions should refuse to tour NZ in future, that'll be another £34M you wont be getting!


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 30, 2011)

Fucking shit attitude the Kiwi's seem to have at the moment, proper diva like.  I mentioned it earlier but if they carry on down this road they'll end up like the English FA, disliked by everyone else and voted against at every opportunity just for the lulz.


----------



## bendeus (Sep 30, 2011)

Teaboy said:


> Actually it really isnt, Utd really didnt want to do this world club cup nonsense, its the last thing they needed mid season, which is why they completly fucked it up first time around.  Second time they had to be persuaded to take it seriously with sympathetic fixture arrangement by the premiership and financial backing from the FA.
> 
> Also you seem to keep comparing the All Blacks to Man Utd, its a shit comparison the two are not even close in marketing terms.



No, but they share adjoining pages on Gabi's wank scrapbook


----------



## bendeus (Sep 30, 2011)

Samoa's result against the Bokke show how far they have come as a side. Strong as fuck up front, decent heads and options at halfback and huge, fast-twitchy chaps everywhere else. This, married with decent coaching and discipline, makes for a formidable outfit who had the world champions rattled for large parts of the game. Wonder where the money for the decent coaching outfit who have brought them on comes from? Ah, yes. It's from IRB largesse! They get extra as a developing nation. Doubtless it goes some of the way to making up for all the promising youth they lose to their powerful neighbours.

Genuine shame that they can't participate in any meaningful competition of note. If they were in the 3N I have no doubt that they'd be competitive right now (as demonstrated against Aus and SA in recent games). Sadly, they'll continue to be a feeder country for NZ for as long as rugby remains so asymmetrical.

Hang on.................


----------



## Limejuice (Oct 1, 2011)

Well done, Tonga!


----------



## Superdupastupor (Oct 1, 2011)

half-time ...anyone watching?

I was feeling a grim inevitability about the match , but the drop-goal has got me going again...


----------



## QueenOfGoths (Oct 1, 2011)

Superdupastupor said:


> half-time ...anyone watching?
> 
> I was feeling a grim inevitability about the match , but the drop-goal has got me going again...


Sort of half watching - Mr. QofG's is the rugby fan, I just tag along. Scotland certainly seem the more determined but then they need to win by a certain margin of points don't they?

Though even I in my rugby ignorance jeered when one of the commentators said "When we the last time Johnny Wilkinson missed three penaltiesin a match?!" Er....that would be in the first match of this tournament, doh!


----------



## Superdupastupor (Oct 1, 2011)

need to win by 8

cant take the pressure,


----------



## Superdupastupor (Oct 1, 2011)

that was funny

"who can remember such a time....?"

"erm it was 2 weekszss ago"


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Oct 1, 2011)

what an utterly tedious sport this is....


----------



## Superdupastupor (Oct 1, 2011)

i'm enjoying it.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Oct 1, 2011)

70 minutes and not one try scored, not one real chance of a score being tried, main talking point is wilkinson's inability to kick a point consistently. even the pundit praised england for their clever play, just as they conceded a penalty for foul play.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Oct 1, 2011)

finally, an ex league player actually manages to get over the line for a try.


----------



## Superdupastupor (Oct 1, 2011)

I know,

oh well


----------



## gabi (Oct 1, 2011)

Teaboy said:


> Fucking shit attitude the Kiwi's seem to have at the moment, proper diva like. I mentioned it earlier but if they carry on down this road they'll end up like the English FA, disliked by everyone else and voted against at every opportunity just for the lulz.



Unfortunately, the top dog's always gonna get targeted like this. The facts - NZ loses shitloads of money to provide the box office players (in virtually every side in the WC) that the pom-run IRB thrives on..

Good luck in 2015 

Super 15 rugby is far far better than the shit on display in this WC anyway. Scotland-England was a fucking abomination.

Go on Crusaders.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 1, 2011)

England really are an embarrassment to the game, aren't they?


----------



## bendeus (Oct 1, 2011)

Carter badly injured by the looks of things. McCaw had cortisone for blood. The two-man team look vulnerable without them. This WC is wide open, IMO.


----------



## gabi (Oct 1, 2011)

I dont think Carter's really injured - just a convenient excuse to play Slade against the canucks. carter will be back for the next one.


----------



## editor (Oct 1, 2011)

(((Scotland)))


----------



## bendeus (Oct 1, 2011)

Have you seen the photo of him on the deck? If that's play acting I'm Sleaterkinney.


----------



## 1927 (Oct 1, 2011)

Nice to see that Gabi is living up to the arrogance displayed by his country's rugby union. Anyone would think that the world of rigby owed the AB s a living or something. The side that already get the rub iof every fucking decision in every game they play.

You can almost hear refs thinking, that cant have been offisde/forward pass/ holding on etc cos its the ABs and they wouldnt do that. |If they were refereed the same as every other team in the workd, they would still win 90% of the games they win, but it would be a hell of a lot closer. the most cynical team on the planet, and now the most arrogant and obnoxious. If you dont like it, fuck off back under your stones guys, I for one can do without your cynicsim and arrogance.


----------



## 1927 (Oct 1, 2011)

Was taliing tonight with one of south wales leading rugby journalists and he agreed with me that if we both chose our 4 semi finalists tonight, it would be unlikely that either of us would be correct and it would be silly to put any money on it. A wales v NZ is not out of the question, but any of the other NH teams could make it, and will NZ choke? Thing is SA and Aus are not firing to take advantage of any hiccup by NZ. The most open RWC ever imho!


----------



## bendeus (Oct 1, 2011)

Carter is out. Poor bastard. That's two WCs that one of the finest talents ever to take to a pitch will not see out. NZ fucked without him, IMO.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/af...ocId=CNG.3fa646f23d63695e028bd4c0c4c05929.971


----------



## bendeus (Oct 1, 2011)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> what an utterly tedious sport this is....



I missed this post earlier

Here come the leaguers

You're judging the game of rugby union on a clash between England and Scotland, FFS. Have you seen any of the other games at all? This is shaping up to be the finest RU tournament in history.

The 2013 RLWC will be contested between a massive twelve nations, only three of which (Aus, Papua New Guinea and the Cook Islands ) can genuinely claim that RU is a minority sport in comparison to its shitter understudy.

Right now, I reckon Aus, SA, England, Ireland, Wales and NZ all have a legitimate shout of winning the fucking thing. Do you think anyone but Aus and NZ, and maybe GB will have a shout next year? Barring an incredible run of form by the Cook Islands (and I fear that they have some fairly chafing grasses out there), I would imagine it will end up being the same tiresome parade as it was last time. It really may as well be a tri-nations affair between the only three countries that really give a flying fuck about it, as they will doubtless be contesting it anyway.

Nobody gives a sailing shit about grass shagging, which I guess is why you come on to the one true code's thread in order to gripe.


----------



## Pingu (Oct 2, 2011)

i actually feel sorry for fiji. on the day they play very entertaining rugby but in recent years seem to have lost their way a bit.

still a nice result for the boyos there.

of the home nations Wales have looked the best... which means we will be out next round whilst the sais do their normal jammy bastards routine and end up in the final


----------



## treefrog (Oct 2, 2011)

Was at Eden Park for England-Scotland, fuck me that was an amazing atmosphere. Gutted though.


----------



## Pingu (Oct 2, 2011)

ireland looking good tbh. italy with some dirty play...


----------



## 1927 (Oct 2, 2011)

Pingu said:


> ireland looking good tbh. italy with some dirty play...



Its called having a dose of your own medicine I think.


----------



## Pingu (Oct 2, 2011)

there is dodgy and then there is dirty...


----------



## Pingu (Oct 2, 2011)

ok that should have been a try. nice football skillz.


----------



## gabi (Oct 2, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Carter is out. Poor bastard. That's two WCs that one of the finest talents ever to take to a pitch will not see out. NZ fucked without him, IMO.
> 
> http://www.google.com/hostednews/af...ocId=CNG.3fa646f23d63695e028bd4c0c4c05929.971



You're lovin it arent you


----------



## 1927 (Oct 2, 2011)

gabi said:


> You're lovin it arent you



 No doubt the NZRU will put in a complaint that they have been expected to play group matches. After all they are son nailed on for the final they should have been given the berth automatically and everyone else should have played a tournament for ther right to take them on for the cup. Its not fair that ABs actually have to play rugby and risk injury! I demand that this injustice is corrected at future world cups.


----------



## 1927 (Oct 2, 2011)

Pingu said:


> there is dodgy and then there is dirty...



And Ireland are dodgy dirty feckers!


----------



## gabi (Oct 2, 2011)

1927 said:


> No doubt the NZRU will put in a complaint that they have been expected to play group matches. After all they are son nailed on for the final they should have been given the berth automatically and everyone else should have played a tournament for ther right to take them on for the cup. Its not fair that ABs actually have to play rugby and risk injury! I demand that this injustice is corrected at future world cups.



I think anyone who actually likes rugby would be quite disappointed by the news that worlds best player is out of the WC, at his peak. carry on gloating on tho... hes actually a really nice dude off the field, he must be shattered.

seems his understudy picked up a knock this morning too. not good omens.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 2, 2011)

gabi said:


> I think anyone who actually likes rugby would be quite disappointed by the news that worlds best player is out of the WC, at his peak. carry on gloating on tho... hes actually a really nice dude off the field, he must be shattered.
> 
> seems his understudy picked up a knock this morning too. not good omens.



I wonder if GH has Nick Evans' phone number. And no, I'm not gloating - it's a real shame. Does open up the tournament a lot, though.


----------



## gabi (Oct 2, 2011)

Evans isnt eligible as he plays in Europe - they're pretty strict on that one. But yeh - bonkers, backward policy imo.

meanwhile england's up to their old tricks.



> "These guys towered over me. They were the tallest guys I have ever seen. I just remember James' stupid grin. He thought it was hilarious. Dylan was on the bed. Then they got out a video camera and started to film me. I tried to hide my face, saying I'm working."



http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/5719261/England-rugby-team-in-sex-bullying-claim


----------



## sleaterkinney (Oct 2, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Carter is out. Poor bastard. That's two WCs that one of the finest talents ever to take to a pitch will not see out. NZ fucked without him, IMO.
> 
> http://www.google.com/hostednews/af...ocId=CNG.3fa646f23d63695e028bd4c0c4c05929.971


That's their excuse there - now they can go and bottle it.

Shame to see him pull up for the 2nd in a row. Do NZ have an understudy?


----------



## 1927 (Oct 2, 2011)

gabi said:


> I think anyone who actually likes rugby would be quite disappointed by the news that worlds best player is out of the WC, at his peak. carry on gloating on tho... hes actually a really nice dude off the field, he must be shattered.
> 
> seems his understudy picked up a knock this morning too. not good omens.


I dont remember anyone showing any sympathy to wales when we looked like having our entire Lions front row for this world cup.


----------



## mattie (Oct 2, 2011)

bendeus said:


> England really are an embarrassment to the game, aren't they?



Tell me about it.  And reigning 6N champions as well.


----------



## mattie (Oct 2, 2011)

1927 said:


> I dont remember anyone showing any sympathy to wales when we looked like having our entire Lions front row for this world cup.



Bless.

Perhaps it's because he got injured in the WC being played in his home nation.

Tragedy for the bloke, comfortably the best 10 and even if NZ win it's not quite the big prize he should be getting.


----------



## mattie (Oct 2, 2011)

gabi said:


> Evans isnt eligible as he plays in Europe - they're pretty strict on that one. But yeh - bonkers, backward policy imo.
> 
> meanwhile england's up to their old tricks.
> 
> http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/5719261/England-rugby-team-in-sex-bullying-claim



Can you imagine, simply can you imagine, a gangbang with Dylan Hartley.

Put yourself in anyone else's place, and imagine Dylan Hartley's gurning mug during the vinegar strokes.  Then imagine Gunshow failing to get it up because of all the 'roids and taking it out on Ashton.

It's a fucking horror show.


----------



## starfish (Oct 2, 2011)

Didnt think we'd get out of the group but absolutely gutted that we were so close in the 2 games that mattered. It might help if we were able to score tries.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 2, 2011)

mattie said:


> Can you imagine, simply can you imagine, a gangbang with Dylan Hartley.
> 
> Put yourself in anyone else's place, and imagine Dylan Hartley's gurning mug during the vinegar strokes.  Then imagine Gunshow failing to get it up because of all the 'roids and taking it out on Ashton.
> 
> It's a fucking horror show.





How often, and how, *ahem*, 'hard' do you 'imagine' such things, Mattie?


----------



## bendeus (Oct 2, 2011)

starfish said:


> Didnt think we'd get out of the group but absolutely gutted that we were so close in the 2 games that mattered. It might help if we were able to score tries.



Yes. The fact that Scotland are shit has certainly militated against their further progress, sorry Starfish


----------



## bendeus (Oct 2, 2011)

Mattie: 'Reigning' as in Lady Jane Grey as opposed to reigning as in Queen Victoria, yah?


----------



## bendeus (Oct 2, 2011)

Best out with broken collarbone and rumours of a POC injury. Our inexorable march to the WC gathers pace


----------



## 1927 (Oct 3, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Best out with broken collarbone and rumours of a POC injury. Our inexorable march to the WC gathers pace



Shhhhhhhhhh!


----------



## flypanam (Oct 3, 2011)

No mention in the Irish Times of O'connell being injured. I'm pretty happy though I think we'll have to be alot more accurate at the breakdown if we're gonna deal with Warburton.


----------



## flypanam (Oct 3, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Best out with broken collarbone and rumours of a POC injury. Our inexorable march to the WC gathers pace



Reported!


----------



## mattie (Oct 3, 2011)

bendeus said:


> How often, and how, *ahem*, 'hard' do you 'imagine' such things, Mattie?



What goes on on tour, stays on tour.

Maybe Chavin's on to something with his new show, gets to flirt with loads of ladies and gets paid for it.


----------



## mattie (Oct 3, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Best out with broken collarbone and rumours of a POC injury. Our inexorable march to the WC gathers pace



Dusautoir may be out for France, not good to see these things swung by injury.

http://wc.planetrugby.com/news/view/dusautoir_in_doubt_269973

Lievremont doing his best to ruin it for France, but I suspect this misfiring England campaign may finally stutter to halt round about now.  I should also say Armitage is out for what was quite a bad high tackle on Paterson - stepped back in for a big hit but managed to ram his shoulder straight into Paterson's jaw.  I know he's short, but he's always been short. Still, gives Cueto a go - he's not elcetric but has been consistently good, which is what a badly misfiring backline might benefit from.  And we might see Bananaman in centres if Tindall isn't fit.  I don't think Basterauex is in the France squad, but that could have been truly brutal.


----------



## Teaboy (Oct 3, 2011)

I think Armitage can count himself quite lucky to only get a one match ban.  Its not a huge loss though, for me the question wasnt Armitage or Cueto it was Armitage or Foden.

Corbiserio should start without a shadow of doubt, Stevens is not up to the job at loosehead.


----------



## gabi (Oct 3, 2011)

So it looks like the real Cup starts this weekend. thank fuck for that. i really think they should have a parallel competition for the minnows - whats the point of NZ-Canada? Or SA-Namibia... absurd.


----------



## flypanam (Oct 3, 2011)

gabi said:


> So it looks like the real Cup starts this weekend. thank fuck for that. i really think they should have a parallel competition for the minnows - whats the point of NZ-Canada? Or SA-Namibia... absurd.


----------



## 1927 (Oct 3, 2011)

gabi said:


> So it looks like the real Cup starts this weekend. thank fuck for that. i really think they should have a parallel competition for the minnows - whats the point of NZ-Canada? Or SA-Namibia... absurd.


Its called the Rugby WORLD Cup you dumwit!


----------



## gabi (Oct 3, 2011)

yeh - its just kinda pathetic pitting amateur sides against pro's - i think canada only has one paid professional in their side. just seems pointless.

contrast it with the football world cup where the supposed minnow there (new zealand) went thru unbeaten, even against the likes of italy.

facts are facts. theres about 8 nations who deserve a spot in the cup, and guess what, they'll be the ones in quarters.


----------



## mattie (Oct 3, 2011)

gabi said:


> yeh - its just kinda pathetic pitting amateur sides against pro's - i think canada only has one paid professional in their side. just seems pointless.
> 
> contrast it with the football world cup where the supposed minnow there (new zealand) went thru unbeaten, even against the likes of italy.
> 
> facts are facts. theres about 8 nations who deserve a spot in the cup, and guess what, they'll be the ones in quarters.



Really?  I count about a dozen who could realistically state a case.

And we can't leave out Wales.


----------



## gabi (Oct 3, 2011)

Wales are going to win the world cup. of this im absolutely fucking certain. it's their time.


----------



## mattie (Oct 3, 2011)

gabi said:


> Wales are going to win the world cup. of this im absolutely fucking certain. it's their time.



I'm taking up another sport if they do.

And giving up urban.  We'd never hear the end of it - we never hear the end of it already, god knows what a win would be like.


----------



## gabi (Oct 3, 2011)

In all seriousness, they've looked very good. not sure what their route is to the final but they've actually looked the second best side so far, altho obv its been a tad mickey mouse so far.


----------



## teecee (Oct 3, 2011)

gabi said:


> yeh - its just kinda pathetic pitting amateur sides against pro's - i think canada only has one paid professional in their side. just seems pointless.
> 
> contrast it with the football world cup where the supposed minnow there (new zealand) went thru unbeaten, even against the likes of italy.
> 
> facts are facts. theres about 8 nations who deserve a spot in the cup, and guess what, they'll be the ones in quarters.



Yeah because a tier 2 side like Tonga could never beat a tier 1 side like, say France, could they??  -

It's all about exposure and experience though, they will learn a lot from their world cup experiences a which will help improve the game in their own countries and the players involved will better be able to help those younger players with anything useful they may have learnt . If you just isolate the top teams you'll just get a self perpetuating elite which won't be good for the game at all (Looks over at  Blatter the smugunchable c**t)

I think the Brazilians have the right approach to the game for an up and coming side though


----------



## 1927 (Oct 3, 2011)

teecee said:


> Yeah because a tier 2 side like Tonga could never beat a tier 1 side like, say France, could they??  -
> 
> It's all about exposure and experience though, they will learn a lot from their world cup experiences a which will help improve the game in their own countries and the players involved will better be able to help those younger players with anything useful they may have learnt . If you just isolate the top teams you'll just get a self perpetuating elite which won't be good for the game at all (Looks over at Blatter the smugunchable c**t)



But Gabi is a Kiwi, and this is what NZ rugby want. They dont want new rugby playing nations as it wil only increase the number of countries in the world that the ABs have to compete with for players and who might have the audacity to offer decent salaries to tempt NZers away and play rubgy abroad.


----------



## flypanam (Oct 3, 2011)

gabi said:


> yeh - its just kinda pathetic pitting amateur sides against pro's - i think canada only has one paid professional in their side. just seems pointless.



Yeah but your precious all blacks leaked 15 points to a Canadian team that was on the whole made up of students. Tell me who is more encouraged?

Fank fuck for the likes of Kieran Crowley who see the game IS the important thing and revel in coaching minnows.


----------



## mattie (Oct 3, 2011)

Great.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2011/oct/03/rugby-world-cup-2011-england-france


----------



## mattie (Oct 3, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Mattie: 'Reigning' as in Lady Jane Grey as opposed to reigning as in Queen Victoria, yah?



Only just noticed this - Bendy, we have quotes for a reason, don't you know (harrumph) - I thought the reign lasted for a year.  Like Wales' status as 4th best in the NH.

Oh, oh, sorry.  Wales have kept that for 3 years.  Long may it continue.


----------



## flypanam (Oct 3, 2011)

Joubert, Walsh and Barnes three of the most hated men in Wales!


----------



## gabi (Oct 3, 2011)

mattie said:


> Great.
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2011/oct/03/rugby-world-cup-2011-england-france



At least there'll be some quality on the pitch


----------



## mattie (Oct 3, 2011)

flypanam said:


> Joubert, Walsh and Barnes three of the most hated men in Wales!



That almost implies there's a well-liked ref in Wales.


----------



## flypanam (Oct 3, 2011)

Nigel Owens???? The one place he ain't popular is Apia.


----------



## mattie (Oct 3, 2011)

flypanam said:


> Nigel Owens???? The one place he ain't popular is Apia.



Parochial even in their choice of ref.


----------



## mattie (Oct 3, 2011)

gabi said:


> At least there'll be some quality on the pitch



He does have a good line in insults and player abuse, I'll grant you that.


----------



## The Boy (Oct 3, 2011)

gabi said:


> whats the point of NZ...?



The most sensible thing you've said on this thread.

Anyway, I'm back from my holiday just in time for my interest in the tournament to be, effectively, finished.  Apparently PSA has popped over to take a look at the French players in the KO stages.  Would it be too much too ask the FFR to elbow Rabbithill out of the way and let PSA take charge early?


----------



## mattie (Oct 3, 2011)

The Boy said:


> The most sensible thing you've said on this thread.
> 
> Anyway, I'm back from my holiday just in time for my interest in the tournament to be, effectively, finished. Apparently PSA has popped over to take a look at the French players in the KO stages. Would it be too much too ask the FFR to elbow Rabbithill out of the way and let PSA take charge early?



As long as that 'early' is any time after half-tennish this Saturday.


----------



## starfish (Oct 3, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Yes. The fact that Scotland are shit has certainly militated against their further progress, sorry Starfish



At least we have avoided the prospect of getting well & truly embarrassed by the All Blacks in the 1/4's.


----------



## mattie (Oct 4, 2011)

Hmm.

This might end in tears.

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,16024_7222861,00.html

He was at Bath for a few seasons, quite an impressive player.  Now at Gloucester, so he's dead to me.


----------



## flypanam (Oct 4, 2011)

I see that Aaron Crudden has been called into the AB's as cover for Colin Slade. He's a better player than Slade imho. Still with McAllister ripping it up in Toulouse, I think they'll realise that they can be a bit to slow to forgive players their mistakes eg Steven Donald and his nightmare in Thomond, McAllister in Cardiff 2007.


----------



## gabi (Oct 4, 2011)

flypanam said:


> I see that Aaron Crudden has been called into the AB's as cover for Colin Slade. He's a better player than Slade imho. Still with McAllister ripping it up in Toulouse, I think they'll realise that they can be a bit to slow to forgive players their mistakes eg Steven Donald and his nightmare in Thomond, McAllister in Cardiff 2007.



NZ has a policy of not selecting overseas based players - nothing to do with their past performances.


----------



## mattie (Oct 4, 2011)

gabi said:


> NZ has a policy of not selecting overseas based players - nothing to do with their past performances.



I do see the logic, but I thought this stance could be softened by considering which overseas players left as there was no role for them in NZ and which left in spite of a place in the NZ team.

It seems silly to punish Nick Evans for leaving after he was dropped.  If he gave up the shirt, that's a different question.


----------



## gabi (Oct 4, 2011)

mattie said:


> I do see the logic, but I thought this stance could be softened by considering which overseas players left as there was no role for them in NZ and which left in spite of a place in the NZ team.
> 
> It seems silly to punish Nick Evans for leaving after he was dropped. If he gave up the shirt, that's a different question.



I think you guys are adopting a similar policy next season.. hence, Wilko's possibly played his last game for England


----------



## mattie (Oct 4, 2011)

gabi said:


> I think you guys are adopting a similar policy next season.. hence, Wilko's possibly played his last game for England



As long as they include the caveat that they've actively turned down equivalent opportunities on home shores, then I think it justified.


----------



## gabi (Oct 4, 2011)

mattie said:


> As long as they include the caveat that they've actively turned down equivalent opportunities on home shores, then I think it justified.



NZ clubs can't offer anything like what McCallister or Evans are earning. I saw a stat the other day than an All Black earns about half of what a squad player at one of the heineken cup clubs does.

Would be a no-brainer for me - life in the south of france on half a mill a year or £100k in chilly otago... hmm


----------



## mattie (Oct 4, 2011)

gabi said:


> NZ clubs can't offer anything like what McCallister or Evans are earning. I saw a stat the other day than an All Black earns about half of what a squad player at one of the heineken cup clubs does.
> 
> Would be a no-brainer for me - life in the south of france on half a mill a year or £100k in chilly otago... hmm



I would expect many of the ABs to pick up a lot more than base wage, but the point stands - I can understand someone leaving if their path at home is blocked, but it's not the same as leaving to pocket cash.  From what I understand, Evans was blocked but McAlister left a NZ place (although he did move back to where he was brought up in England).


----------



## flypanam (Oct 4, 2011)

gabi said:


> NZ has a policy of not selecting overseas based players - nothing to do with their past performances.



True, however NZ is a pretty unforgiving place for a rugby player who makes some big game cock ups. There are a litany of players who were on the verge of making it past Super rugby stage, and for whatever reason failed to do so. I maintain that the game was up for Stephen Donald when Munster ran them close. He started as fly half against scotland, like a few others was appaling in Munster then what happened? For McAllister, his return home after his time in Sale, was a period when he was subject to all kinds of scrutiny from his 'off' performances for the Blues to his love and family life leaving little incentive to stay in the goldfish bowl.


----------



## 1927 (Oct 4, 2011)

gabi said:


> I think you guys are adopting a similar policy next season.. hence, Wilko's possibly played his last game for England



Wilko has possibly played his last game for England on account of the fact that he is shit these days!


----------



## mattie (Oct 4, 2011)

flypanam said:


> True, however NZ is a pretty unforgiving place for a rugby player who makes some big game cock ups. There are a litany of players who were on the verge of making it past Super rugby stage, and for whatever reason failed to do so. I maintain that the game was up for Stephen Donald when Munster ran them close. He started as fly half against scotland, like a few others was appaling in Munster then what happened? For McAllister, his return home after his time in Sale, was a period when he was subject to all kinds of scrutiny from his 'off' performances for the Blues to his love and family life leaving little incentive to stay in the goldfish bowl.



My understanding of Donald's situation is that he simply not Dan Carter, and if it wasn't one thing that he got crucified for, it would be another.

As an aside, he's due at Bath in the not-so-distant, very, very keen to see how he gets on - and Kyle Eastmond as well.  We missed Butch James badly when he was injured, basically England in microcosm - some very good backs out wide, stifled by not having the right players inside them.  I don't say that to criticise Vesty, he's a good player, just not quite what was needed there and then.  I've heard good things about Donald, at least from those who don't compare every NZ 10 to Carter.


----------



## mattie (Oct 4, 2011)

1927 said:


> Wilko has possibly played his last game for England on account of the fact that he is shit these days!



The French in Toulon rave about him, for good reason.  He's superb.


----------



## flypanam (Oct 4, 2011)

mattie said:


> My understanding of Donald's situation is that he simply not Dan Carter, and if it wasn't one thing that he got crucified for, it would be another.



Thats a better way of putting it!

Donald is a confidence player, saw him a 15+ plus times when I was in NZ for the Chiefs and Waikato, needs a good scrum half and a coach that will show him some understanding and he can be outrageously brilliant. Tends to chip and chase far too often but I like him even though I've been reduced to watching him take kicks through my fingers. A very good buy!


----------



## mattie (Oct 4, 2011)

flypanam said:


> Thats a better way of putting it!
> 
> Donald is a confidence player, saw him a 15+ plus times when I was in NZ for the Chiefs and Waikato, needs a good scrum half and a coach that will show him some understanding and he can be outrageously brilliant. Tends to chip and chase far too often but I like him even though I've been reduced to watching him take kicks through my fingers. A very good buy!



There was a whole kerfuffle when Butch left, as we lost a few big earners which meant rumours flew around about who the replacement 10 would be given the large chunk of salary cap left- Carter, Hernandez, Cipriani, St Jonny, Steyn, even Chavin were rumoured.  Many were disappointed by Donald, I'm quite happy with it.

He'll have Claassens at 9, he'd been legendary for a few seasons but a bit off the boil of late - saying that he struggled when Butch wasn't fit, so hoping Donald picks him up.  Geech is a good coach, if a bit snidier than I'd thought.  Well used to going for a strategic pint when Butch was lining up the kicking tee, hopefully Olly Barkley will be back to take over those duties.


----------



## The Boy (Oct 4, 2011)

Just had a look at the French squad for Saturday.  think I'll just have a long lie...


----------



## bendeus (Oct 5, 2011)

Anyway, enough waffle. Wales are going to win the World Cup.


----------



## flypanam (Oct 5, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Anyway, enough waffle. Wales are going to win the World Cup.



It's like you've picked up a handful of your own shite and decided to rub it in our eyes.


----------



## Teaboy (Oct 5, 2011)

Looks like England are just making the one (forced) change then, I'm sure there is a saying about doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different outcome.  What with the football on Friday this is shaping up to be a weekend full of stodgy and shapeless English sport.


----------



## flypanam (Oct 5, 2011)

mattie said:


> Hmm.
> 
> This might end in tears.
> 
> ...



Eliota Sapulo Fuimaona banned from all rugby  but looks like he's gonna fight the charges against him (he failed to turn up to a hearing) saying he wasn't informed that their was one. IRB have got this one wrong.

But in other news the IRB have told NZ:

"Does the World Cup need the All Blacks? It would be good for the All Blacks to be there, Everyone is replaceable."

Finally Ireland have named the same side to face Wales. They are giving Rory every opportunity to get fit for the clash.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 5, 2011)

flypanam said:


> It's like you've picked up a handful of your own shite and decided to rub it in our eyes.



Sorry, forgot the  ''


----------



## flypanam (Oct 5, 2011)




----------



## bendeus (Oct 5, 2011)

Meeaaooowwwww! 'Ark at 'er!




			
				Toby Flood said:
			
		

> "*You want to be selected on current form, not because eight years ago you were outstanding - I was playing really well when I was 12*," said Flood."At the same time, you understand that some people have the ability - and Jonny was phenomenal the day he kicked them out of the World Cup in Paris, which will help his side of the argument."





(((Flood-oh)))

Link


----------



## gabi (Oct 5, 2011)

flypanam said:


> "Everyone is replaceable."



True! Even corrupt, money-grubbing, sub-standard organisations such as the IRB...

The Tri-nations is effectively the world cup anyway - not sure why the southern hem sides should lose tens of millions of pounds in 2015 to travel up here. Just fight it out down there.


----------



## flypanam (Oct 5, 2011)

Bloody hell! Though I'm glad someone is stirring things up, the 'Love-in' between your lot and my lot is reaching 'Neighbours' like gooyness.

Can't you and SK kick off?


----------



## 1927 (Oct 5, 2011)

gabi said:


> True! Even corrupt, money-grubbing, sub-standard organisations such as the IRB...
> 
> The Tri-nations is effectively the world cup anyway - not sure why the southern hem sides should lose tens of millions of pounds in 2015 to travel up here. Just fight it out down there.



Quoted for easy reference come October 23rd.


----------



## flypanam (Oct 5, 2011)

gabi said:


> True! Even corrupt, money-grubbing, sub-standard organisations such as the IRB...
> 
> The Tri-nations is effectively the world cup anyway - not sure why the southern hem sides should lose tens of millions of pounds in 2015 to travel up here. Just fight it out down there.



So sad, so delusional I name you Pepelo Pepelo and claim my £5.

Tri Nations wound up this year!


----------



## bendeus (Oct 5, 2011)

gabi said:


> True! Even corrupt, money-grubbing, sub-standard organisations such as the IRB...
> 
> The Tri-nations is effectively the world cup anyway - not sure why the southern hem sides should lose tens of millions of pounds in 2015 to travel up here. Just fight it out down there.






			
				bendeus said:
			
		

> Aye. We established about two years ago that you don't like rugby much, which would explain why you don't appear to know much about it (which, incidentally, is fine).
> 
> It's more the showing up for a week a year to crow about your nation's superiority (and everyone else's inferiority) in a sport that you appear to have some distaste for that baffles me.






			
				Flypanam said:
			
		

> I actually think the All Blacks are well respected on these threads. Their fans too. But in all cases those who believe they have a natural right get ripped for being eggs.






			
				Gabi said:
			
		

> Um.. when do i do that?? I hate the all blacks, and in fact, I have a healthy dislike for NZ in general.
> 
> I do, unfortunately know a fair about the sport, that's down to osmosis tho






			
				Gabi said:
			
		

> For the record, bendeus, i dont particularly support the all blacks. the permeation of rugby in every facet of NZ culture is a large part of why i and most of my friends got the fuck out of there. it encourages macho bullshit meathead behaviour, somethin im not a fan of. i dont mind watching it from time to time tho. and i won a hefty wedge on the NZ/France semi in Cardiff (which i was at). i like to see them lose in honesty.






			
				bendeus said:
			
		

> I'd suggest you have a rather, erm, bipolar relationship with your team. I hear you when you talk about your distaste for the macho culture of rugby - as someone who grew up in a S.Wales town, and who saw the 'hilarious' antics of our local rugby boys at first hand, I'd say I shared that, and can understand why you'd react against it. You do, however, appear to fall prey to the 'we're better than everybody else' vibe that characterises NZ rugby when you post on the threads. In fairness, though, you are better than everybody else, and yes, I can't see anybody else lifting the cup this year.






			
				Gabi said:
			
		

> So it looks like the real Cup starts this weekend. thank fuck for that. i really think they should have a parallel competition for the minnows - whats the point of NZ-Canada? Or SA-Namibia... absurd.






			
				1927 said:
			
		

> Nice to see that Gabi is living up to the arrogance displayed by his country's rugby union. Anyone would think that the world of rigby owed the AB s a living or something. The side that already get the rub iof every fucking decision in every game they play.






			
				Gabi said:
			
		

> I don't see any reason why NZ and Aus should lose shedloads of money by travelling to Europe in 2015 to fill your stadia every time they visit.. I really dont.






			
				Gabi said:
			
		

> I dont need to outline them. You just did. Those two qualities alone outweigh anything B'OD is capable of. He makes things happen. O'Driscoll is reactionary - perfectly adequate - perhaps one of the sharpest players the NH has produced in the last 15 years or so but he'd struggle to get into the AB's performance squad.



I could go on..........


----------



## gabi (Oct 5, 2011)

Please do bendy. Do you want to see a world cup without the tri-nations involved btw?


----------



## bendeus (Oct 5, 2011)

What has that got to do with your wearisome arrogance?


----------



## gabi (Oct 5, 2011)

'Everyone is replaceable' isnt a tad arrogant?


----------



## 1927 (Oct 5, 2011)

gabi said:


> 'Everyone is replaceable' isnt a tad arrogant?



No.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 5, 2011)

gabi said:


> 'Everyone is replaceable' isnt a tad arrogant?



I'll requote again for your edification:




			
				bendeus said:
			
		

> It's more the *showing up for a week a year to crow about your nation's superiority (and everyone else's inferiority)* in a sport that you appear to have some distaste for that baffles me.



I was right all along, wasn't I?


----------



## mattie (Oct 5, 2011)

gabi said:


> Please do bendy. Do you want to see a world cup without the tri-nations involved btw?



A 6N with some other teams?  Yes please!


----------



## sleaterkinney (Oct 5, 2011)

How's everybodies nerves then?


----------



## junglevip (Oct 5, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Anyway, enough waffle. Wales are going to win the World Cup.



Lets not get carried away; you sound like an English football fan


----------



## mattie (Oct 5, 2011)

junglevip said:


> Lets not get carried away; you sound like an English football fan



Not quite - he can spell.

(And, just in case there's any doubt, it's the English _press_. The fans are generally long-suffering)


----------



## bendeus (Oct 5, 2011)

sleaterkinney said:


> How's everybodies nerves then?



Really bad. I'm genuinely contemplating not watching it on Saturday and waiting till the highlights.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 5, 2011)

junglevip said:


> Lets not get carried away; you sound like an English football fan



I was, of course, joshing.


----------



## mattie (Oct 5, 2011)

I'll be up bright and early and ruining my whole weekend.


----------



## junglevip (Oct 6, 2011)

bendeus said:


> I was, of course, joshing.



Oops! Didnt mean any offence, I like the team he has picked


----------



## The Octagon (Oct 6, 2011)

Wilkinson and Flood?

Could work.


----------



## flypanam (Oct 6, 2011)

I'm really nervous but really excited as well, its going to a great spectacle seeing the two of the form teams going for it. when I look at the team sheets I really can't see a difference between the two. I think it's pretty scary how good both Wales and Ireland are at the moment. It is the game of the weekend without a doubt.

I think its all down to Sean O'briens scrum cap, which i heard he wears to a. Flannery's on a sunday night to pick up a culchie girl. b in the shower. c, to visit santa to ask for a dump truck toy. d. When Jonny Sexton's Ma invites him round for his tea.


----------



## flypanam (Oct 6, 2011)

mattie said:


> A 6N with some other teams? Yes please!



That would be awesome. I noticed the Saffa haven't piped up about losing cash...


----------



## treefrog (Oct 6, 2011)

Luckily for the rest of NZ but annoyingly for me, the two decent QFs are happening down in Wellington, I really fancied going to Wales-Ireland. It's going to be one of the games of the tournament I reckon, that and Australia-SA (who do I dislike more? errrmmm)


----------



## elfman (Oct 6, 2011)

My predictions for winners this weekend... NZ, SA, Eng, Ire.

What winners I would like to see this weekend... Arg, Aus, Eng, Ire


----------



## mattie (Oct 6, 2011)

Despite us being their bogey team, I can't see us beating France - although having a creator at 12 makes me very happy indeed, the French team is brimming with running talent and we've lost our most solid defensive back.  The French backrow - despite potentially losing the superb Dusautoir - is perfectly capable of mangling any effort at quick ball.

It's much as above, although I'm not going to call the celtic game as I can see it tipping either way.


----------



## 1927 (Oct 6, 2011)

I'm as excited as fuck, but just know that the weekend will be an anticlimax. Wales will lose, England will win and the other QF's dont really matter to me.

Wales will either totally fail to turn up, lose to bad refereeing/cheating, or gift Ireland an interception pass in the 79th minute after battling valiantlay and leading for much of the game!


----------



## treefrog (Oct 6, 2011)

1927 said:


> Wales will either totally fail to turn up, lose to bad refereeing/cheating, or gift Ireland *an interception pass in the 79th minute after battling valiantlay and leading for much of the game!*



I know that feeling well...


----------



## 1927 (Oct 6, 2011)

I wish Eng v Fra was on first, as if Eng lose, it will be much easier to accept a Welsh defeat! As it is, if Wales lose I will have to spend 80minutes shouting my heart out for Fra like the most patriotic Frenchman!


----------



## mattie (Oct 6, 2011)

I'd expect nothing less from a proud taff, I'll be doing likewise.  I've got a green top all lined up.

Glad the turn of events didn't result in me having to cheer on France though.  Oof.


----------



## 1927 (Oct 6, 2011)

mattie said:


> Oof



Does that mean eggs? In french I mean!


----------



## mattie (Oct 6, 2011)

1927 said:


> Does that mean eggs? In french I mean!



I thought it meant 'how do you like those onions?' but I haven't the gallic shrug to fully pull it off.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 6, 2011)

flypanam said:


> I'm really nervous but really excited as well, its going to a great spectacle seeing the two of the form teams going for it. when I look at the team sheets I really can't see a difference between the two. I think it's pretty scary how good both Wales and Ireland are at the moment. It is the game of the weekend without a doubt.
> 
> I think its all down to Sean O'briens scrum cap, which i heard he wears to a. Flannery's on a sunday night to pick up a culchie girl. b in the shower. c, to visit santa to ask for a dump truck toy. d. When Jonny Sexton's Ma invites him round for his tea.



With both teams selected I have to say that there's little in it after my earlier confidence. I must doff my cap to the progress made by the now-clearly-roller-skate-free Cian Healy and Ross, who have turned the Irish scrum from a joke to a force. I think that Wales will be the toughest scrummaging outfit they've come up against thus far (yes, I do believe we're better than an Italy with Castrogiovanni packing down), and so it will be a measure of how far they've come. I'd say we shade it, but not by a lot.

POC's presence in the second row gives that area to Ireland, though Cronin's darts at the lineout could remove some of the advantage.

Backrow is fascinating. The brute force and power of Ferris and O'Brien versus the incredible athleticism and jackalling of Warburton, and the aggressive defence and breakdown work of Lydiate. Could go either way here.

We shade it at halfback, IMO, though plenty would disagree. Centres even, and Wales better at 11, 14 and, possibly, 15.

I have a feeling that the bench could be the area that decides this game, well, that and fitness. A full-strength Wales have serious impact in Hook, Bradley, Ryan Jones, Paul James and the impressive and hard-running Scott Williams. I'd say that for all the parity on the pitch, we have more in reserve - just as SA had in the first game, which ultimately gained them victory.

I'd say if we're still in touch on 60, then watch out Ireland. We have more quality to bring on, and more in the tank to see the game out.

Maybe


----------



## bendeus (Oct 6, 2011)

junglevip said:


> Oops! Didnt mean any offence, I like the team he has picked



None taken . Yes, Gatland has picked the best available side for the match. Shows how far we've come when Wellies can't even get in the XXII


----------



## flypanam (Oct 6, 2011)

mattie said:


> Despite us being their bogey team, I can't see us beating France - although having a creator at 12 makes me very happy indeed, the French team is brimming with running talent and we've lost our most solid defensive back. The French backrow - despite potentially losing the superb Dusautoir - is perfectly capable of mangling any effort at quick ball.
> 
> It's much as above, although I'm not going to call the celtic game as I can see it tipping either way.



I don't think your going to be looking to swing the ball out wide creative 12 or not. You'll impose your game, and you will grind out a result. So i'm predicting England.

I think this French team don't want to be there at all. All the talk of the players taking more control is an indication that they would rather be at home, forgetting about the 4 years the clueless one has been in charge. The problem for France is how long will it take to get over his stupidity?


----------



## mattie (Oct 6, 2011)

flypanam said:


> I don't think your going to be looking to swing the ball out wide creative 12 or not. You'll impose your game, and you will grind out a result. So i'm predicting England.
> 
> I think this French team don't want to be there at all. All the talk of the players taking more control is an indication that they would rather be at home, forgetting about the 4 years the clueless one has been in charge. The problem for France is how long will it take to get over his stupidity?



The key thing of having a creative 12 is that it gives more room to everyone else - Tindall just ran hard and straight, no need to drift very far, having someone who can bring runners in means France have to have a wider spread.  Of course, having Wilko sat back 20 yards rather negates all this.


----------



## flypanam (Oct 6, 2011)

bendeus said:


> With both teams selected I have to say that there's little in it after my earlier confidence. I must doff my cap to the progress made by the now-clearly-roller-skate-free Cian Healy and Ross, who have turned the Irish scrum from a joke to a force. I think that Wales will be the toughest scrummaging outfit they've come up against thus far (yes, I do believe we're better than an Italy with Castrogiovanni packing down), and so it will be a measure of how far they've come. I'd say we shade it, but not by a lot.
> 
> POC's presence in the second row gives that area to Ireland, though Cronin's darts at the lineout could remove some of the advantage.
> 
> ...



In the spirit of everyone getting on well despite the big game ( I know we'll all blow up on Saturday) I don't disagee with you. I think you will be tougher in the scrum but I think mentally Ross and Healy, beacuse for years our scrum has been derided will be up for this. Greg Feek I owe you a pint! The news is that Rory Best is winning his race to be fit, if he it it will be massive boost for us in the scrum and line out.

The backrow battle will be immense, it says something about Ferris and O'Brien that they make Heaslip look like a plodder, but I can't say enough about Warburton except I wish he was Irish. I think we shade it in centres though D'arcy worries me alot and at 15 and the battle between Tommy and Shane Williams will be a joy!

Agreed about the bench.

Will it go to extra time? Probably.

I can see it going to drop kicks.

I can see me crying either way!


----------



## flypanam (Oct 6, 2011)

mattie said:


> The key thing of having a creative 12 is that it gives more room to everyone else - Tindall just ran hard and straight, no need to drift very far, having someone who can bring runners in means France have to have a wider spread. Of course, having Wilko sat back 20 yards rather negates all this.



You'll play to your strenghs, you'll play that Leicseter game. You'll win. I've called it. I'm a fool.


----------



## mattie (Oct 6, 2011)

flypanam said:


> You'll play to your strenghs, you'll play that Leicseter game. You'll win. I've called it. I'm a fool.



Don't you try that jinxy stuff with me, me lad.


----------



## Teaboy (Oct 6, 2011)

mattie said:


> The key thing of having a creative 12 is that it gives more room to everyone else - Tindall just ran hard and straight, no need to drift very far, having someone who can bring runners in means France have to have a wider spread. Of course, having Wilko sat back 20 yards rather negates all this.



But having a creative number 12 implies that you intend to create something.  Playing Flood alongside Wilkinson and packing the bench full of forwards kind of implies........... well put it this way I don't think Ashton will be man of the match.

Easter and Stevens together for England, we can only hope Parra has an off day.


----------



## mattie (Oct 6, 2011)

Teaboy said:


> But having a creative number 12 implies that you intend to create something. Playing Flood alongside Wilkinson and packing the bench full of forwards kind of implies........... well put it this way I don't think Ashton will be man of the match.
> 
> Easter and Stevens together for England, we can only hope Parra has an off day.



IN my lighter moments, my assumption is that if we were going for bosh we have both Hpae and Bananaman for that.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 6, 2011)

flypanam said:


> In the spirit of everyone getting on well despite the big game ( I know we'll all blow up on Saturday)



I am already bottling vintage bile in anticipation of a Welsh defeat



> The news is that Rory Best is winning his race to be fit, if he it it will be massive boost for us in the scrum and line out.



He, and his shoulder, will be targeted early doors at scrumtime if he starts. Big blow for you guys if he's forced off early. Shows how little confidence there is in Cronin and Varley that they're clearly rushing a crocked player back.



> The backrow battle will be immense, it says something about Ferris and O'Brien that they make Heaslip look like a plodder, but I can't say enough about Warburton except I wish he was Irish.



Aye. It's power and go-forward versus cunning and expert work on the deck. Really absorbing.



> I think we shade it in centres though *D'arcy worries me alot*



That's why I don't think you shade it in the centres. D'Arcy will spend the game trying to contain Roberts. BOD is yet to really light up the tournament, IMO. Still call it even.



> the battle between Tommy and Shame Williams will be a joy!



Yes. Keeturls and North looks to be fairly interesting as well.



> Will it go to extra time? Probably.
> 
> I can see it going to drop kicks.
> 
> I can see me crying either way!



Very interesting comments on a lot of the Welsh forums at present. Gatland has made a pretty cock-out, positive selection based on verve and youth. By dropping Wellies and benching Ryan he seems to be refusing to play Ireland at their own game (something that they are better at than us), and instead trusting in our ability to keep a high tempo, medium-to-high risk game going for the duration of the match. As I say, if we're in touch after 60, then I'd say his was the right decision. If, however, there's five minutes to go and a couple of points in it, I'd always back Ireland to close the game out in such circumstances, particularly with no S.Jones to come on and steady things. Fuck. I feel sick just thinking about it


----------



## Teaboy (Oct 6, 2011)

elfman said:


> My predictions for winners this weekend... NZ, SA, Eng, Ire.



I'd go along with that.

NZ are a given as long as they can see through all the tears following the Carter news.  SA v Oz would have been a tough one to call but with all the injuries to the aussies you'd have to back the boks, that being said I've not been impressed by either so far.

I think Ireland just have the edge over Wales, I think Wales are being a bit over-hyped and Ireland have to many big game players.  When it matters this Irish side can find a big performance such as against the aussies and England in the 6N.

Lastly I'm going to go with England, who despite the lack lustre performances and the insistance of Johnson to refuse to play any sort of flowing game, know how to stifle the opposition and win a game.  France are just all over the place at the moment.

Beyound the quarters I fancy a NZ v ireland final, which I'd love to see Ireland win.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 6, 2011)

Teaboy said:


> I think Ireland just have the edge over Wales, I think Wales are being a bit over-hyped and Ireland have to many big game players. When it matters this Irish side can find a big performance such as against the aussies and England in the 6N.



Interesting. Who do you feel is overhyping us? We've barely got a mention, and most seem to think that the QF is Ireland's for the taking.


----------



## Teaboy (Oct 6, 2011)

There have been quite a few articles of late with glowing reports of the Welsh team and their individual greatness.  Granted its not the fans, who like most fans are fairly realistic.

I'm just looking at the results so far and see a decent performance against SA ending in a loss, and tbh SA have not been much cop so far.  Then the result against Samoa which was roundly reported in the press as a great result, despite the fact it was close and Samoa are ranked below both Argentina and Scotland and had played a few days prior.

Don't get me wrong, I think this is a decent Welsh team who play the style of game I wish England could but I just don't see potential finalists.  Having watched the Ireland go about dismantling  both England and the Aussies recently I have to back them.


----------



## 1927 (Oct 6, 2011)

Teaboy said:


> There have been quite a few articles of late with glowing reports of the Welsh team and their individual greatness. Granted its not the fans, who like most fans are fairly realistic.
> 
> I'm just looking at the results so far and see a decent performance against SA ending in a loss, and tbh SA have not been much cop so far. Then the result against Samoa which was roundly reported in the press as a great result, despite the fact it was close and Samoa are ranked below both Argentina and Scotland and had played a few days prior.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I think this is a decent Welsh team who play the style of game I wish England could but I just don't see potential finalists. Having watched the Ireland go about dismantling both England and the Aussies recently I have to back them.



Dismantling England? The same Ireland that has lost to Scotalnd, England and France twice in the last 2 months?


----------



## Teaboy (Oct 6, 2011)

1927 said:


> Dismantling England? The same Ireland that has lost to Scotalnd, England and France twice in the last 2 months?



Did you not see England in Dublin in the 6 nations?  As a fan you don't forget a game like that.  You need to look beyond meaningless friendlies.


----------



## flypanam (Oct 6, 2011)

bendeus said:


> That's why I don't think you shade it in the centres. D'Arcy will spend the game trying to contain Roberts. BOD is yet to really light up the tournament, IMO. Still call it even.



I know D'arcy has exasperated me recently, but against a Italian side (I admit a poor one) he did well enough in both defence and attack to make me think he's capable of more. Saying that I really like Roberts, and think if he plays like he is, in a years time he'll have that Lions place nailed.



1927 said:


> Dismantling England? The same Ireland that has lost to Scotalnd, England and France twice in the last 2 months?



True we were poor, so poor I honestly thought we were going out in the groups. However I did say that I thought Gaffney was playing silly buggers as we didn't make one backline move in the four tests. I think the tests were for building match fitness. You guys went to Spala. We went to Spala pre 6N in 2005. You killed us.

However, while I was disheartend, but, we have been building momentum at the WC which is where it's at. no?

I've just seen that it will be a little wind and rain on Saturday, having went to the Cake Tin four years ago i guess that will be a sodden pitch and gale to freeze your balls or gee.


----------



## mattie (Oct 6, 2011)

Erm, what?

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,3818_7228203,00.html


----------



## sleaterkinney (Oct 6, 2011)

flypanam said:


> In the spirit of everyone getting on well despite the big game ( I know we'll all blow up on Saturday) I don't disagee with you. I think you will be tougher in the scrum but I think mentally Ross and Healy, beacuse for years our scrum has been derided will be up for this. Greg Feek I owe you a pint! The news is that Rory Best is winning his race to be fit, if he it it will be massive boost for us in the scrum and line out.


I don't think Rory will be fit, I think that's a bit of smoke and mirrors.

I think we have better players who are more battle hardened and experienced than Wales, the Leinster and Munster players have that experience at the business end of tournaments.

But this is a different, one-off occasion and I don't honestly know which way it will go. It's 50-50 in my mind.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 6, 2011)

sleaterkinney said:


> I don't think Rory will be fit, I think that's a bit of smoke and mirrors.
> 
> I think we have better players who are more battle hardened and experienced than Wales, the Leinster and Munster players have that experience at the business end of tournaments.
> 
> But this is a different, one-off occasion and I don't honestly know which way it will go. It's 50-50 in my mind.



Agreed on 'battle-hardened and experienced'. 'Better' is moot. I guess at some point every battle-hardened team gets routed by some younguns. Sometimes they get it right, _a la _Woodentop's old timers in 2003, and other times they're just that bit *too* old to contain the ebullience of their youthful oppos. That notwithstanding, our recent levels of concord clearly herald the end times


----------



## bendeus (Oct 6, 2011)

mattie said:


> Erm, what?
> 
> http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,3818_7228203,00.html



Well he hasn't shown himself capable of managing a game effectively from anything else but a pack-upholstered armchair since 2003.


----------



## mattie (Oct 7, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Well he hasn't shown himself capable of managing a game effectively from anything else but a pack-upholstered armchair since 2003.



Erm, what?

Stands deep, yes.  Not the best running game, yes.  Can't handle pressure, _what_?

Hit a bad run of form and suddenly you're Dan Parks.


----------



## junglevip (Oct 7, 2011)

On Sundays scrum V, Jonathan Davies said that if the game goes wide you will need a specialist number six (the Irish dont have one for this game...)  Could someone please tell me why this might be?


----------



## flypanam (Oct 7, 2011)

junglevip said:


> On Sundays scrum V, Jonathan Davies said that if the game goes wide you will need a specialist number six (the Irish dont have one for this game...) Could someone please tell me why this might be?



I think he probably means 7. We have two specialist 6's O'Brien and Ferris. I never played in the flanker position but to me the role of the blind was  stopping any move by the opponents on the 'narrow' side of a scrum and generally cover in defending. Also a b/side is used as a support runner and are generally good carriers of the ball in second + phase possession, in order to break tackles...good in the line out etc.

The open side role is to pilfer opponents ball, so has to get to the ruck quickly.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Oct 7, 2011)

How is Ferris not a six?


----------



## flypanam (Oct 7, 2011)

Just got a text from a mate whose scored a ticket for tomorrows game NZ$600. He's dead to me. However how many Welsh fans are in NZ? Hopefully loads too.


----------



## mattie (Oct 7, 2011)

My experiences have always been that the 6 is the one who plugs defensive holes across the line, whereas the 7 aims more at getting first up on 10/12 and getting to the breakdown.  Prior to that, and as flypanam says, the 6 has an equivalent role to 7 if the opposition attacking scrum goes blindside.  A 6 may be strong in the tackle, but it's the positional/game-reading elements that are vital - England had to use Borthwick at 6 in one 6N game, and although he's a strong tackler he was hopelessly exposed positionally.

Richard Hill - the best player I've ever seen live, in any position - was a master at putting the most disruptive tackles in - the opposition would almost be through a gap and he'd get them on the floor and isolated.  He shut Ickle out of a game when he played for Sarries in the HC, which shows the distance covered to disrupt the Welsh team's (hairsprays?) most potent attacking weapon.  Neil Back has a bit more snide at the breakdown, but would not be so wide for a first-up tackle.

I think this is what bignose is getting at.

To be honest, much of the trick is ensuring that the back three cover the elements, who does what becomes less important - Tom Croft is a better link to the backs than Moody, although 7 is generally seen a the position that fills that role.  (I see Moody more as a 6 anyway).


----------



## bendeus (Oct 7, 2011)

Agree that Jiffy was probably referring to the openside (7) position. Ireland have two sixes on the flanks, so aren't short in that position.

The wider out Ireland try to play, and the further runners are isolated from supporting pods of forwards, the more it plays into the hands of Warburton: an out-and-out specialist jackalling 7, who needs very little time to force the turnover.

To win, Ireland will need to keep it close in to the setpiece with runners coming off SOB and Ferris' shoulders, and plenty of pods on hand to clear Warburton out. IMO, of course.


----------



## junglevip (Oct 7, 2011)

It was seven he was on about.  I think he may have been refering to Paul Wallaces injury


----------



## junglevip (Oct 7, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Agree that Jiffy was probably referring to the openside (7) position. Ireland have two sixes on the flanks, so aren't short in that position.
> 
> The wider out Ireland try to play, and the further runners are isolated from supporting pods of forwards, the more it plays into the hands of Warburton: an out-and-out specialist jackalling 7, who needs very little time to force the turnover.
> 
> To win, Ireland will need to keep it close in to the setpiece with runners coming off SOB and Ferris' shoulders, and plenty of pods on hand to clear Warburton out. IMO, of course.



Ah


----------



## flypanam (Oct 7, 2011)

SBW is off to the Roosters next year. Rumour made public just before the QF in a country desperate for a WC win. The only thing SBW cares about is SBW. Wanker.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 7, 2011)

Sonny William Williams. Worth 2 BODs according to Gabi and Sonny William Williams hisself


----------



## Lord Camomile (Oct 7, 2011)

According to Wikipedia, Jonny Wilkinson is 5'10", and Toby Flood is 6'0".

So what the hell is going on in this photo?!


----------



## bendeus (Oct 8, 2011)

Corinthian spirit: good luck everyone. Be you orcs, cheats, maniacs or god's own players. What will be will be: some of us will be feeling far better than others tomorrow. Either way, this feels to me like the best world cup ever, and so here's a virtual glass to our participation, whether or not it bears fruit.

Iechyd da!


----------



## The Boy (Oct 8, 2011)

England by 20+.  Anything less than that will be a moral victory for France.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 8, 2011)

The Boy said:


> England by 20+ and HairyDonkey forced to fellate Hartley while singing God Save The Queen. Anything less than that will be a moral victory for France.



Fixed for posterity. G'night.


----------



## mattie (Oct 8, 2011)

Phew.  Who needs basketball and try-fests?  This is great rugby.


----------



## Pingu (Oct 8, 2011)

enjoyable game so far. if ieland can get some quick ball and spin it out faster they may turn this one.

good welsh defense though


----------



## elfman (Oct 8, 2011)

Im trying my best to watch the Wales - Ireland game on a shit stream while everyone in the school sleeps. I think I'll miss most of the England - France game though as I'm teaching... on a Saturday! China is fucked up. They give you a weeks holiday and then tell you to work the weekend to make some of the time up. I could be sat in an English pub now drinking cider with lots of expats, but no, the bastards have to spoil my fun!!


----------



## mattie (Oct 8, 2011)

Good finish - this sets the second half up beautifully.


----------



## mattie (Oct 8, 2011)

Great snipe Mike Phillips


----------



## mattie (Oct 8, 2011)

Gareth Thomas is getting on my tits.  But then it is 7 in the morning.

I recall our celtic cousins moaning about impartial commentators.  He's a fucking cheerleader.


----------



## mattie (Oct 8, 2011)

Ireland looking a bit short on ideas here.  Wales playing this nicely.

Do their tactics remind anyone else of another 6N team?


----------



## elfman (Oct 8, 2011)

Poor defence for the Davies try. Its Wales' game now, can't see Ireland coming back


----------



## mattie (Oct 8, 2011)

And that's surely that - Wales have played this to perfection. Very, very tidy.

Gareth Thomas, stfu. You sound like a Chelsea fan.

(edited name.  Too early in morning)


----------



## sleaterkinney (Oct 8, 2011)

That's it for the Golden Generation then. No composure today, should have taken those frees early. Well done Wales.


----------



## Pingu (Oct 8, 2011)

the welsh fitness is starting to show too.  ireland have played well imo but dont seem to have an answer to the fast welsh defence


----------



## Pingu (Oct 8, 2011)

now lets hope the froggies give the sais a good rogering (you never know)


----------



## mattie (Oct 8, 2011)

France vs Wales it is then.

Wales look to have nailed the gameplan and the players who can execute it.  An untypical one for them, but very, very impressive.

A bit surprised Ireland didn't try a few taps over the top, given Wales up so fast in defence.  they can be a bit of a lottery, but something different was needed.


----------



## mattie (Oct 8, 2011)

Pingu said:


> now lets hope the froggies give the sais a good rogering (you never know)



France will win, England just too stodgy.


----------



## junglevip (Oct 8, 2011)

Well done boys!


----------



## junglevip (Oct 8, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Corinthian spirit: good luck everyone. Be you orcs, cheats, maniacs or god's own players. What will be will be: some of us will be feeling far better than others tomorrow. Either way, this feels to me like the best world cup ever, and so here's a virtual glass to our participation, whether or not it bears fruit.
> 
> Iechyd da!



Good health!


----------



## mattie (Oct 8, 2011)

Just wincing my way through the England/france build-up, the graphic said harryordinary is 6'11".


----------



## kabbes (Oct 8, 2011)

What time does this actually start?  There's only so long I can watched misshapen granite-faced men talking obvious platitudes.


----------



## mattie (Oct 8, 2011)

Dusautoir is match-fit then.

Is it just me, or are the Maoris who 'greet' the players onto the field looking increasingly deranged?


----------



## mattie (Oct 8, 2011)

kabbes said:


> What time does this actually start? There's only so long I can watched misshapen granite-faced men talking obvious platitudes.


 
....moments away.


----------



## mattie (Oct 8, 2011)

I think France win the Battle of the National Anthems.


----------



## kabbes (Oct 8, 2011)

Come on England!


----------



## kabbes (Oct 8, 2011)

mattie said:


> I think France win the Battle of the National Anthems.


Of course they do.  They have the best national anthem in the world.  Even I feel compelled to stand to it.


----------



## QueenOfGoths (Oct 8, 2011)

kabbes said:


> What time does this actually start? There's only so long I can watched misshapen granite-faced men talking obvious platitudes.


Though when one of them mentioned that the French team in their past few performances had let themselves and their country down I did smirk - really, they let the whole of France down!?


----------



## mattie (Oct 8, 2011)

I started singing along, and I don't even know the words.


----------



## mattie (Oct 8, 2011)

Well done, Phil Vickery, adding some much-needed hysteria.


----------



## QueenOfGoths (Oct 8, 2011)

mattie said:


> I started singing along, and I don't even know the words.


Isn't it just "la, la, la lalala LA lala", that's what I always sing.


----------



## King Biscuit Time (Oct 8, 2011)

kabbes said:


> Of course they do. They have the best national anthem in the world. Even I feel compelled to stand to it.



Second best actually, after Burkina Faso.



> *One Single Night*
> 
> Against the humiliating bondage of a thousand years
> Rapacity came from afar to subjugate them for a hundred years.
> ...


----------



## kabbes (Oct 8, 2011)

Ooh, exciting early attack.


----------



## kabbes (Oct 8, 2011)

... and lose the line-out


----------



## mattie (Oct 8, 2011)

Moody's already headbutted someone's foot.  He doesn't look right without some blood running down his face.


----------



## mattie (Oct 8, 2011)

'BANG!  Sit down!'


----------



## mattie (Oct 8, 2011)

How can the non-tackler be penalised for not releasing in the tackle?


----------



## mattie (Oct 8, 2011)

What does a scrum _smell_ like?

16 sweaty men, in my experience.


----------



## mattie (Oct 8, 2011)

England, yet again, seem determined to ruin any decent work they do by giving away penalties.


----------



## mattie (Oct 8, 2011)

Uh-oh.  Speedbump defence.

Saying that, France look very, very up for this.


----------



## mattie (Oct 8, 2011)

'Tesco checkout'



Phil Vickery, a commentating man amongst boys


----------



## mattie (Oct 8, 2011)

Some great play by the frogs, some decent stuff by England, ruined by some slapsick offloads and fumbles.


----------



## kabbes (Oct 8, 2011)

England lucky to still be vaguely in this match at half time.  Missed penalty + 2 missed conversions = England could have been 26-0 down and completely out of it.


----------



## mattie (Oct 8, 2011)

England butchered a few good opportunities.  Bouncing passes of a team-mates's back.  Fuck's sake.

The dodgy tackling and shaky set-piece is what worries me.  You build scores from defence.  Look at Wales, that was a clinically excellent performance.


----------



## gawkrodger (Oct 8, 2011)

so far, so abysmal


----------



## mattie (Oct 8, 2011)

I suspect dayglo and Vickery are being a bit fanciful here.


----------



## mattie (Oct 8, 2011)

Vickery doesn't seem to like Ben Foden much


----------



## mattie (Oct 8, 2011)

Being bested in every facet.


----------



## kabbes (Oct 8, 2011)

This England team are just a bit lightweight.  Not good enough in any department.  Too many errors, not enough imagination, too little inspiration, not enough skill.


----------



## kabbes (Oct 8, 2011)

kabbes said:


> This England team are just a bit lightweight. Not good enough in any department. Too many errors, not enough imagination, too little inspiration, not enough skill.


... and then we get a try


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 8, 2011)

Timing kabbes, timing.


----------



## kabbes (Oct 8, 2011)

It came from actually having a moment of inspiration from a free kick. Kicking to hand and _running_ it.

How are we only 16-7 down? Unbelievable.


----------



## Pingu (Oct 8, 2011)

england are not playing that badly... in general. fucking up the simple bits has been their issue. i still think they have a shot


----------



## mattie (Oct 8, 2011)

We've been running it all game - but either throwing passes to thin air, off-loading to the other team or knocking on.

It's surprising that we're down by less than 10 - France have been much, much better than us.


----------



## Pingu (Oct 8, 2011)

both of these matches have been entertaining. in fact the whole of this world cup has been entertaining.


----------



## mattie (Oct 8, 2011)

Yep, and I reckon every game from here on in is going to get better.


----------



## kabbes (Oct 8, 2011)

What are the rules on substitutions?


----------



## mattie (Oct 8, 2011)

Bananaman!

Check the tats.  That's a ten-point head-start, right there.


----------



## kabbes (Oct 8, 2011)

Stop dropping the ball!


----------



## mattie (Oct 8, 2011)

kabbes said:


> What are the rules on substitutions?



If you're asking about Stevens coming back on, there must be 3 recognised front-rows on the pitch (where possible), so once the other props were injured he can come back on.


----------



## Pingu (Oct 8, 2011)

that passage of play sums up what has been wrong for the sais. the build up was great but they couldnt deliver


----------



## mattie (Oct 8, 2011)

There's too much forcing.  Some of the offloads simply haven't been on, and still they try.


----------



## kabbes (Oct 8, 2011)

mattie said:


> There's too much forcing. Some of the offloads simply haven't been on, and still they try.


That's just what I was saying here IRL


----------



## kabbes (Oct 8, 2011)

9 points to get in 9 minutes


----------



## kabbes (Oct 8, 2011)

8 minutes to get 12 points.


----------



## Pingu (Oct 8, 2011)

and with that its bye bye england.


----------



## mattie (Oct 8, 2011)

Pretty much.  We were halfway out the door at half-time.


----------



## Pingu (Oct 8, 2011)




----------



## mattie (Oct 8, 2011)

Bananaman.

Banananananaman.


----------



## mattie (Oct 8, 2011)

Vickery quite right - wtf was that question?


----------



## elfman (Oct 8, 2011)

Missed most of the England game but I'm sort of glad I did looking at the score now...

Hope Wales go on to win it or even France, just not NZ/SA/AUS as I'd like to see their world domination end


----------



## kabbes (Oct 8, 2011)

That is definitely a try.  Why the difficulty?


----------



## kabbes (Oct 8, 2011)

There you go.!


----------



## 5t3IIa (Oct 8, 2011)

Tense.


----------



## Pingu (Oct 8, 2011)

tbf elf its been a good game. ignoring the scoreline even the hardest englishman would have to admit its been an entertaining game. ... and its till possible they could claw this back,


----------



## 5t3IIa (Oct 8, 2011)

Rubbish.


----------



## mattie (Oct 8, 2011)

Too little, too late.


----------



## kabbes (Oct 8, 2011)

It's never a good game if you don't win.


----------



## Pingu (Oct 8, 2011)

england playing panic rugby now


----------



## mattie (Oct 8, 2011)

Heymans to score a try now.


----------



## Pingu (Oct 8, 2011)




----------



## mattie (Oct 8, 2011)

Oh well.

England scrappy for the whole tournament, pretty much summed up in this game.  Some good-looking moments, some abject horror.

Hobson's choice for the semi-final though.  Do I want Wales or France to lose more?


----------



## Pingu (Oct 8, 2011)

support the welsh.. go on be a man...


----------



## mattie (Oct 8, 2011)

Fuck right off.

(I may actually go over to mates in Cardiff for it.)


----------



## elfman (Oct 8, 2011)

Pingu said:


> tbf elf its been a good game. ignoring the scoreline even the hardest englishman would have to admit its been an entertaining game. ... and its till possible they could claw this back,



Fair enough, but if England don't win then I'm going to struggle to enjoy myself especially to France who up to now have had a dreadful WC.

By missing the game I've still been enjoying rugby by introducing the game for the 1st time to about 20 4-6 year old Chinese kids. I reckon by 2035 these lot will win the WC


----------



## mattie (Oct 8, 2011)

And I'll cheer on Wales over any of the tri-nation teams.

I have _some_ standards.


----------



## kabbes (Oct 8, 2011)

How much do we think the crap from the team that Johnson had to deal with in the week affected this?


----------



## Pingu (Oct 8, 2011)

lol. tbh england lost that rather than france winning. first 20 mns was when that was lost.


----------



## mattie (Oct 8, 2011)

It had nothing to do with it.

France were good, England played as they have been playing for the whole tournament.


----------



## Pingu (Oct 8, 2011)

kabbes said:


> How much do we think the crap from the team that Johnson had to deal with in the week affected this?



probably didnt help.

also france uncharacteristicly kept their cool and discipline. didnt give away many kickable penalties


----------



## The Boy (Oct 8, 2011)

Well, I suppose abject defeat in the semi-final is an improvement on what I was expecting....


----------



## mattie (Oct 8, 2011)

Pingu said:


> lol. tbh england lost that rather than france winning. first 20 mns was when that was lost.



I'd agree - Pienaar made the point before the game, don't let France in it.

He's also making the point that England weren't good enough.  Which is true, as Lewis Moody is admitting.


----------



## Pingu (Oct 8, 2011)

and if we are not careful i can see france doing that to us in the semi final


----------



## mattie (Oct 8, 2011)

Wales have shown excellent defence and an ability to keep it tight - no throwing of stupid passes, rock-solid set-piece and phase play, only going wide when the forwards have set a platform.  Precisely what was needed here.

It's really odd, England and Wales seem to have reversed styles.


----------



## elfman (Oct 8, 2011)

I think one thing that France have over Wales is they're known more as a big game team. When was the last time Wales got to a semi-final? France have been in a couple of finals and a couple semi-finals, won the 6(5) nations more than Wales and won more big test games.

Wales are the form team but France have proved themselves time again to be able to play in big games throughout the years.


----------



## mattie (Oct 8, 2011)

I think there's a bit more steel to this Wales side than some give them credit for.

So far Wales haven't won by flair, they've won by calm, considered rugby.  I can see them doing it.  Frankly, England beat themselves.  Wales haven't shown signs of doing that.


----------



## gabi (Oct 8, 2011)

Swiiiiiing low...sweeeeeeet charioooott... coming forth to carry....

YOU!

HOME!



a disgrace to the sport, on and off the field.


----------



## Pingu (Oct 8, 2011)

wow.. such bile.. even us sheep shaggers (Northern Hemishpere as opposed to the arse feltching southern hemisphere ones) wouldnt go as far as to say england were a disgrace.

i would say:

soundly beaten
trounched
stuffed
rogered

but not a disgrace

in the game today they just didint wake up until it was too late


----------



## gabi (Oct 8, 2011)

> England took off their white shirts and waved them in surrender. They had no answers until a brief second-half revival that wasn't enough.





> From the moment they touched down here arrogance has been the prevailing projection. From the Queenstown party antics to the above-the-rules ball swap, they have generally annoyed.



http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/5753914/France-march-on-after-English-roasting

they're a pack of cunts. undeniably so - i just saw England's Brave Martin Johnson claiming on telly that they were unlucky today....

Jesus. While he's in charge... well.. yeh.. g'wan....


----------



## elfman (Oct 8, 2011)

I just don't understand the amount of hatred for the English. I mean it seems a bit OTT a lot of the time...


----------



## Pingu (Oct 8, 2011)

cant wait to see how the NZ press copes if the Argies pull a bunny out of the hat tomorrow...


----------



## Pingu (Oct 8, 2011)

The Boy said:


> Well, I suppose abject defeat in the semi-final is an improvement on what I was expecting....



i dunno. i reckon if wales can fustrate the frenchies enough to make them lose discipline then we will win it. otherwise the french ability to get quick ball may hurt us


----------



## gabi (Oct 8, 2011)

Pingu said:


> cant wait to see how the NZ press copes if the Argies pull a bunny out of the hat tomorrow...



With little surprise I'd think. We're not arrogant enough to assume an easy win against 'weaker' opponents. Like certain other countries who got their arse handed to them today.

The Argies are a quality side. And could well do it - NZ are/were too heavily reliant on one player. Argentina are a proper team.


----------



## Pingu (Oct 8, 2011)

well then... we can but hope.


----------



## gabi (Oct 8, 2011)

I assume your players are tossing dwarves as we speak


----------



## kabbes (Oct 8, 2011)

I hope Wales go all the way now.  Good luck to 'em.


----------



## treefrog (Oct 8, 2011)

What a tremendous evening of rugby! Was nice to watch it with a bunch of Kiwis and show 'em what NH teams are capable of. Wales should have the tri-nations feeling a bit nervous after that effort, and the French were, well, French. Brilliant atmosphere here once again, Queen street was full of French fans in their chicken hats last night 



Pingu said:


> cant wait to see how the NZ press copes if the Argies pull a bunny out of the hat tomorrow...







gabi said:


> With little surprise I'd think. We're not arrogant enough to assume an easy win against 'weaker' opponents. Like certain other countries who got their arse handed to them today.
> .



Oh, give over!  When Dan broke his groin 3 News showed the press conference in full followed by John Campbell interviewing Carter's dad who said that Canterbury had had such a bad year, first the earthquake and now this. The press here are actually edging on hysteria about winning the damn cup. Absolutely nowhere have I read or heard anywhere in the press even the very whisper of a suggestion that the Argentinians will be anywhere but Auckland International come Monday.

If los Pumas take it to the Blackness I think John Key will have to declare an official day of mourning if he wants to win the election come November...


----------



## gabi (Oct 8, 2011)

Me too. Sam Warburton is the best emerging player I've seen in years.

They look quality - but if he's out, they're fucked.

edit: in response to kabbes!


----------



## editor (Oct 8, 2011)

Magnificent result for Wales.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 8, 2011)

Ach, Wales normally fuck it up so badly in World Cups that I hadn't held out much hope. But now...

It really is the hope that kills you! Wales could _win_ this thing.


----------



## mattie (Oct 8, 2011)

Wow.  gabi really is a twat.





gabi said:


> Swiiiiiing low...sweeeeeeet charioooott... coming forth to carry....
> 
> YOU!
> 
> ...



Spoken like a true plastic fan.

You surpass yourself.


----------



## mattie (Oct 8, 2011)

editor said:


> Magnificent result for Wales.



Indeed.  Very impressive.


----------



## mattie (Oct 8, 2011)

gabi said:


> http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/5753914/France-march-on-after-English-roasting
> 
> they're a pack of cunts. undeniably so - i just saw England's Brave Martin Johnson claiming on telly that they were unlucky today....
> 
> Jesus. While he's in charge... well.. yeh.. g'wan....



I see - you take your views, perspective and moral compass from stuff magazine.  It's beginning to make sense.


----------



## mattie (Oct 8, 2011)

A few of the lads on the Bath boards are making a valid point - on current form, it's a blessing to be knocked out by the frogs, as otherwise we'd have been knocked out by the taffs.


----------



## gabi (Oct 8, 2011)

mattie said:


> Wow. gabi really is a twat.
> 
> Spoken like a true plastic fan.
> 
> You surpass yourself.



Thank you sir.

Your team really added to to the tournament, really  Now fuck off.


----------



## mattie (Oct 8, 2011)

I'm sure you've appreciated the rugby all the way through, what with your incisive commentary.

I'm just sorry we won't get any more of your insights from Hello magazine. It's been a highlight.


----------



## gabi (Oct 8, 2011)

Lol.

^^ that btw, is my incisive commentary of your team's World Cup campaign, on and off the pitch. It's been a pleasure. Pure schadenfreude.


----------



## gabi (Oct 8, 2011)

dp


----------



## gabi (Oct 8, 2011)

Lol.

^^ that btw, is my incisive commentary of your team's World Cup campaign, on and off the pitch. It's been a pleasure. Pure schadenfreude.


----------



## mattie (Oct 8, 2011)

I don't think you even realise what's been going on on the pitch.  You've just been reading Hello and Heat, spiced up with a little bit of stuff magazine.

Tell me, who made the most line breaks in that game?  Who ran the most metres?  Who made the most passes and offloads?  Any idea?


----------



## mattie (Oct 8, 2011)

I eagerly await your latest instalment on who Mike Tindall's been speaking to this week.


----------



## 1927 (Oct 8, 2011)

gabi said:


> Swiiiiiing low...sweeeeeeet charioooott... coming forth to carry....
> 
> YOU!
> 
> ...


Just like the englsih dominated British media. Concentrate on the england defeat and ignore a superb welsh display.


----------



## 1927 (Oct 8, 2011)

gabi said:


> With little surprise I'd think. We're not arrogant enough to assume an easy win against 'weaker' opponents. Like certain other countries who got their arse handed to them today.
> 
> The Argies are a quality side. And could well do it - NZ are/were too heavily reliant on one player. Argentina are a proper team.



Pardon? a week ago you were saying that the weaker teams shouldnt even be in the competition!ffs.


----------



## mattie (Oct 8, 2011)

1927 said:


> Just like the englsih dominated British media. Concentrate on the england defeat and ignore a superb welsh display.



We had a wee chat about the taffie performance when the game was on - deeply impressive and, dare I say it, unwelsh?

Superb defence by the whole taff team, the frogs won't get the 2 walk-ins they got today - I'll definitely be watching the SF with some interest.


----------



## badlands (Oct 8, 2011)

AB's without Carter are like John Holmes without his cock.

C'mon the Argies!


----------



## gabi (Oct 8, 2011)

1927 said:


> Pardon? a week ago you were saying that the weaker teams shouldnt even be in the competition!ffs.



Nah, i don't mind the English being there now and then.

Anyway.

Next.


----------



## gabi (Oct 8, 2011)

mattie said:


> dare I say it, unwelsh?



Jesus.

What a fucking cock


----------



## mattie (Oct 8, 2011)

gabi said:


> Jesus.
> 
> What a fucking cock



Do you actually know what I'm referring to?

I already know the answer to that.  It involves rugby, so that's most definitely a 'no'.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 8, 2011)

I know what you mean. Talent, flair, and an infuriatingly fragile defence combined with moments of senseless indiscipline have been hallmarks of Welsh rugby for years.


----------



## gabi (Oct 8, 2011)

mattie said:


> Do you actually know what I'm referring to?
> 
> I already know the answer to that. It involves rugby, so that's most definitely a 'no'.



Are you familiar with the style of rugby that Wales are famous for?

What an arrogant fucking cock


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 8, 2011)

Mattie's right, though, gabi. Wales are not famous for their rock-solid defence!


----------



## gabi (Oct 8, 2011)

They are famous in NZ for flying wingers and rampaging flyhalves and loosies, which they're in possession of at the moment. And good on em.

but hey, i should shut the fuck up, coz what do i know about rugby..

Anyway, I hope Bath do well


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 8, 2011)

gabi said:


> They are famous in NZ for flying wingers and rampaging flyhalves and loosies, which they're in possession of at the moment. And good on em.


Yes. And they're combining that with solid defence and good discipline, which they are not famous for.


----------



## gabi (Oct 8, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Yes. And they're combining that with solid defence and good discipline, which they are not famous for.



So today's performance was 'unwelsh'?

That is the most patronising nonsense yet posted on this thread, and that takes some doing.


----------



## mattie (Oct 8, 2011)

gabi said:


> So today's performance was 'unwelsh'?
> 
> That is the most patronising nonsense yet posted on this thread, and that takes some doing.



You dunce.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 8, 2011)

I'm bowing out of this. I'm far from expert in rugby matters, but I am a Wales supporter and I think I knew what mattie meant.


----------



## gabi (Oct 8, 2011)

mattie said:


> You dunce.



Er...

Can I refer you to my previous post.



gabi said:


> Lol.



Now fuck off.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 8, 2011)

gabi said:


> They are famous in NZ for flying wingers and rampaging flyhalves and loosies, which they're in possession of at the moment. And good on em.


Bowing back in again momentarily, given this reputation, which is not undeserved, how come this is Wales' first appearance in the WC semis since 1987? Could it be because they've added something more to the mix?


----------



## mattie (Oct 8, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I know what you mean. Talent, flair, and an infuriatingly fragile defence combined with moments of senseless indiscipline have been hallmarks of Welsh rugby for years.



That defence was some of the best I've seen for quite a while, but what was really impressive was the continual intensity - Ireland looked shot by the sheer level of physicality. I'd expect it of teams like SA, I wouldn't have associated with Wales.

One of the most impressive things was the composure, it rarely went wide unless wide was on - again, very unlike the Wales we're used to. There was a time, in fact very recently, when the Welsh would chuck it to ickle and hope he'd magic something up. Instead, today we saw North and Roberts make tough yards, and ickle finished off.

I'll be interested to see what happens if France get the shove-on in the scrum in the SF, I know Lydiate is a fine player in retreat but I'll be interested to see how Faletau in particular gets on.


----------



## mattie (Oct 8, 2011)

gabi said:


> Er...
> 
> Can I refer you to my previous post.
> 
> Now fuck off.



I appreciate the whole rugby conversation has gone shooting above your head, so credit to you for hanging in there.


----------



## mattie (Oct 8, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I'm bowing out of this. I'm far from expert in rugby matters, but I am a Wales supporter and I think I knew what mattie meant.



You did.

But you don't have to know anything about rugby to comment.

E.g. gabi.

And Bendy (eta:)


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 8, 2011)

mattie said:


> There was a time, in fact very recently, when the Welsh would chuck it to ickle and hope he'd magic something up.


This is very true. And he did sometimes, tbf, but there was something desperate about it.

As I said earlier, I'm not sure I like this new-found hope!


----------



## mattie (Oct 8, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> This is very true. And he did sometimes, tbf, but there was something desperate about it.
> 
> As I said earlier, I'm not sure I like this new-found hope!



Enjoy it - before the World cup I thought NZ were shoo-ins, but with Carter out it's opened up a touch.

I also thought quite a few teams were on a level par, as I thought any combination of England, Wales, Ireland, France, Oz and SA could beat any other on their day, but as you say Wales have demonstrated some real intensity to go with the fleetness that nudges them ahead.

I fancy Wales to make the final. I'm afraid I still fancy NZ for the win, but it'll be a game to enjoy.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 8, 2011)

mattie said:


> I fancy Wales to make the final. I'm afraid I still fancy NZ for the win.



Me too, but make the final and we've got a chance. TBH I'm delighted to have beaten a very good Irish team, and beaten them well. Wales may not win it, but there's nothing to fear.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 8, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I know what you mean. Talent, flair, and an infuriatingly fragile defence combined with moments of senseless indiscipline have been hallmarks of Welsh rugby for years.



Except in 2005 and 2008


----------



## bendeus (Oct 8, 2011)

mattie said:


> You did.
> 
> But you don't have to know anything about rugby to comment.
> 
> ...



What the fuck did I do to warrant that? Sand in yer vagina again, Mattie?


----------



## bendeus (Oct 8, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Mattie's right, though, gabi. Wales are not famous for their rock-solid defence!



Lowest tries against count in 6 nations history?


----------



## mattie (Oct 8, 2011)

bendeus said:


> What the fuck did I do to warrant that? Sand in yer vagina again, Mattie?



Bollocks.  Forgot winky smiley.


----------



## mattie (Oct 8, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Lowest tries against count in 6 nations history?



That's because there have been times when everyone else has been really, desperately, shit.

I remember England having to apologise to the Irish in the 70s for being so bad.


----------



## mattie (Oct 8, 2011)

Anyway, you a happy man, Bendy?

That's as good as I've seen Wales play for a while. I was always a bit concerned what Wales would do after the ginger prince Martyn Williams retired/was declared obsolete, I think that's been put to bed.


----------



## Dandred (Oct 8, 2011)

England lol


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 8, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Lowest tries against count in 6 nations history?



Probably not in recent years, though.

Correct me if you think I'm wrong, but I very dimly remember the glory years of the late 70s, and it seems to me that it has pretty much been demanded since then that Wales should play in a certain way, even if they don't quite have the players to do it. That's become 'the Welsh way', but (and I really am guessing here) did they have that reputation before the 70s?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 8, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Except in 2005 and 2008



When it all comes together it is glorious.  I don't follow rugby as much as I used to, but even when Wales are losing and England are winning, I'm very glad to be Welsh when it comes to rugby. It must be painful to have to support England.


----------



## Grandma Death (Oct 8, 2011)

mattie said:


> Enjoy it - before the World cup I thought NZ were shoo-ins, but with Carter out it's opened up a touch.
> 
> I also thought quite a few teams were on a level par, as I thought any combination of England, Wales, Ireland, France, Oz and SA could beat any other on their day, but as you say Wales have demonstrated some real intensity to go with the fleetness that nudges them ahead.
> 
> I fancy Wales to make the final. I'm afraid I still fancy NZ for the win, but it'll be a game to enjoy.



That NZ choke could still come. Certainly not against argentina but the boks or aus for sure. I think there's no reason to think Wales could win PROVIDING they dont face the All Blacks in the final.

8 of todays squad I read are under 23. Some of those players are like machines. They play out of their skin...George North especially. I think the lack of the fear factor gives Wales an edge. In fact mabe oif the played NZ that historical baggage wont be there and who knows eh?


----------



## CherryRipe (Oct 9, 2011)

gabi said:


> a disgrace to the sport, on and off the field.



http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-union/r...ded-after-boozy-night-out-20111009-1lffk.html


----------



## elfman (Oct 9, 2011)

elfman said:


> My predictions for winners this weekend... NZ, SA, Eng, Ire.
> 
> What winners I would like to see this weekend... Arg, Aus, Eng, Ire



My predictions were totally shit then 

I just hope the Argies round it off and ruin my predictions!


----------



## Pingu (Oct 9, 2011)

CherryRipe said:


> http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-union/r...ded-after-boozy-night-out-20111009-1lffk.html


----------



## kabbes (Oct 9, 2011)

Today's idle musing: does anything worth mentioning ever happen as a result of a scrum?  What is the point of having scrums in the game?  They just seem to create a few minutes of nothing happening, generally whilst it collapses and resets, turns and is resets and then just sits there whilst the ball is kicked back to the team that put it in anyway.


----------



## kabbes (Oct 9, 2011)

wtf


----------



## elfman (Oct 9, 2011)

Ok, so my new predictions are....

Wales V Aus final, with Wales to win. Its not something I would of said at the start of the tournament at all but I just have a feeling that NZ will choke in the semis and France will carry on their poor form. Wales have been solid and have the confidence to go all the way I think.


----------



## The Boy (Oct 9, 2011)

elfman said:


> Ok, so my new predictions are....
> 
> Wales V Aus final, with Wales to win. Its not something I would of said at the start of the tournament at all but I just have a feeling that NZ will choke in the semis and France will carry on their poor form. Wales have been solid and have the confidence to go all the way I think.



I reckon Wales have to be massive favourites against France.  Can't see them beating NZ, but would back them against Aus.  Should France do the unthinkable and make it to the final, i reckon I would rather we faced the ABs.


----------



## editor (Oct 9, 2011)

I'm daring to dream for Wales!


----------



## bendeus (Oct 9, 2011)

elfman said:


> Ok, so my new predictions are....
> 
> Wales V Aus final, with Wales to win. Its not something I would of said at the start of the tournament at all but I just have a feeling that NZ will choke in the semis and France will carry on their poor form. Wales have been solid and have the confidence to go all the way I think.



Elfman, would you mind predicting a France semi final victory, please.

Kthanx


----------



## elfman (Oct 9, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Elfman, would you mind predicting a France semi final victory, please.
> 
> Kthanx



I think because I've given some reasoning behind these predictions they are more likely to be correct


----------



## mattie (Oct 9, 2011)

kabbes said:


> Today's idle musing: does anything worth mentioning ever happen as a result of a scrum? What is the point of having scrums in the game? They just seem to create a few minutes of nothing happening, generally whilst it collapses and resets, turns and is resets and then just sits there whilst the ball is kicked back to the team that put it in anyway.



Rugby's a game for all shapes, the srum is where the fatsters come into thier own - the consequences of a team being unable to hold thier side of the scrum up are usually pretty dire.  So, there's a reason to have hugely strong but not so mobile players.

Australia, for example, traditionally have poor scrummaging props, so base their game on other elements - their backs have traditionally been excellent so they tend to follow a faster, less abrasive gameplan and hope just to keep a toehold at the scrum.  France, although blessed with quality backs, are generally beasts in the scrum so they're happier to keep everything tight.  As teams can choose how they use penalties (can kick to touch and take a lineout, can kick at goal, can run or can scrum) the ones with dominant scrums may opt to take that option.

On a viewing level, it sucks 8 of 15 players of each team into a few square meters of pitch. This opens up other areas for the backs.  Rugby league has only notional scrums, so they always have a very clear, fixed defensive line. A scrum, much like a rolling maul (basically equivalent of getting into a scrum in open play, where the defending team cannot pull the maul down and must drive it back like in a scrum) is excellent for disturbing defences and pulling defenders in.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 9, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> As I said earlier, I'm not sure I like this new-found hope!



As a Taffy, I am firmly in the 'it's not the despair that kills you, it's the hope' camp. I hope the boys can keep their heads down and feet on the ground, stay focused, and ignore people claiming that they're red-hot favourites.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 9, 2011)

mattie said:


> Anyway, you a happy man, Bendy?
> 
> That's as good as I've seen Wales play for a while. I was always a bit concerned what Wales would do after the ginger prince Martyn Williams retired/was declared obsolete, I think that's been put to bed.



Yes, I am a very happy man. Something fundamental has changed with this squad. There's a quiet belief suffusing our ranks; some young players with no fear, who are starting to realise just how good they are, some older heads - Phillips, Roberts - who are finding top form at exactly the right time. They're a team playing for each other and discovering that there aren't too many limits to what they're capable of. What's also interesting is that players I had thought were fucking shite, such as Charteris and Bennett, are tearing up trees for the cause. They've found another gear.

I guess I have to hand it to Gatland, and eat my words. He has slowly and patiently crafted a side that is capable of really competing at this WC, putting together the building blocks one-by-one. What he now appears to have is the personnel to execute the style of play he's been trying to instil. It's very interesting to witness.

This is the second youngest side in the competition, which,  when held up against the rebuilding that both England and Ireland are going to have to do over the next few years, bodes very well for the future.

I never thought we'd replace Nugget, no, but in Sam Warburton we have found a very, very special player. I literally wouldn't swap him for any other openside in the world at the moment, he is a phenomenon. Honourable mention also goes to Lydiate, who put in an absolutely titanic shift in containing the Irish backrow.

Oh, and Irish posters - your boys gave everything towards a wonderful game. Nuff respect.


----------



## treefrog (Oct 9, 2011)

Another day, another nailbiting brace of games. Was very surprised to see the Bokke go out, they were not the team we've seen recently at all. Maybe losing Steyn was as big a deal as de Villiers said it was? Cooper was shocking though, absolutely dreadful. He's just too inconsistent under pressure.

Was dead chuffed to see Argentina bring the game to the All Blacks, they were great in the first half and it was nice to see the ABs have to work for the win. Shame to see them fall apart in the final 20 but they should be proud of that try. Nice to see Cruden stepping up though, looks like we'll need him for Australia.

I'm going to say a Wales/NZ final, though if they lose Quadey and the ABs play like they did in the first half tonight I might well be wrong. Wales can take France though, I think les bleus have played their world Cup Final.

On a final note, if I have to watch that fucking Heineken commercial they play before, during and after every game and every other ad break on normal TV here I might have to break something. It was bad enough having no choice of beer at games and paying $8 a can for the "privilege", but AAAAAARGH!!! Ditto for constant ads telling me I should be "Backing Black". I live in Auckland for fucks sake, who else am I going to back? (until they play Wales  )


----------



## bendeus (Oct 9, 2011)

The Boy said:


> *I reckon Wales have to be massive favourites against France*. Can't see them beating NZ, but would back them against Aus. Should France do the unthinkable and make it to the final, i reckon I would rather we faced the ABs.



I can see what you're doing there, you scamp!


----------



## bendeus (Oct 9, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Probably not in recent years, though.
> 
> Correct me if you think I'm wrong, but I very dimly remember the glory years of the late 70s, and it seems to me that it has pretty much been demanded since then that Wales should play in a certain way, even if they don't quite have the players to do it. That's become 'the Welsh way', but (and I really am guessing here) did they have that reputation before the 70s?



I think the thing that a lot of people forget about the '70s is that the scintillating backplay was built on an extremely powerful forward platform and a relatively mean defence rather than being the summation of what Wales were all about. Prior to that I'm not too certain. I think Wales have always been a flair side FWIW.

2005 was built on an incredibly mobile pack of forwards, the ability to force and use turnover ball and a high-risk brand of running rugby.

2008 was built on a very well-drilled defence, the ability to stretch the line and create mismatches in attack and the fact that Ickle was absolutely unstoppable that year.

2011 is again built on well-drilled defence, but with perhaps a bit more endeavour in attack, and a willingness to offload in the tackle, which has been absent in recent years. It's a very patient strategy that is comfortable when not in possession and confident of a collective ability to keep teams from crossing the whitewash, and in the ability of the likes of Gethin and Warburton to steal the ball on the deck. It obviously requires absolutely herculean levels of commitment and fitness - just check out both team and individual tackle counts over the course of the competition. Fucking unbelievable.


----------



## The Boy (Oct 9, 2011)

bendeus said:


> As a Taffy, I am firmly in the 'it's not the despair that kills you, it's the hope' camp. I hope the boys can keep their heads down and feet on the ground, stay focused, and ignore people claiming that they're red-hot favourites.
> 
> View attachment 13914



But they *are* red hot favourites.  No two ways about it.  First Welsh WC final, nailed on cert. Best NH WC winners EVER.  FACT.


----------



## mattie (Oct 9, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Yes, I am a very happy man. Something fundamental has changed with this squad. There's a quiet belief suffusing our ranks; some young players with no fear, who are starting to realise just how good they are, some older heads - Phillips, Roberts - who are finding top form at exactly the right time. They're a team playing for each other and discovering that there aren't too many limits to what they're capable of. What's also interesting is that players I had thought were fucking shite, such as Charteris and Bennett, are tearing up trees for the cause. They've found another gear.
> 
> I guess I have to hand it to Gatland, and eat my words. He has slowly and patiently crafted a side that is capable of really competing at this WC, putting together the building blocks one-by-one. What he now appears to have is the personnel to execute the style of play he's been trying to instil. It's very interesting to witness.
> 
> ...



Time will tell whether this is Gats' doing or simply something that happenstance brought together in the right blend, but players like Warburton have been deeply impressive and there's real bedrock there.  I still think that a test of mettle is when chips are down, but from what I've seen there will be a few who will step up to the mark.

In terms of legacy, England are only old in a few positions, but unfortunately in similar positions - in all areas of the team I'm relatively happy except for the back row.  Seeing as this should be England's bread and butter, I'm deeply worried.  Croft seems to be losing his way, Wood looks decent but I cant see how both him and Croft would work.  However, outside these two there's not a lot of youthful exuberance.  Of current, Easter gets slagged but I think he's a very skilled player with mammoth strength but cursed to tighthead levels of footspeed, so he's never going to be first to breakdown, Moody is no ball-snatcher, so who is there?  Palmer's doing most of that work.

England need a 7 - a proper 7 - and a quick 8.  Two problems in adjacent positions is what's killing us.  Youngs, Flood, Tuilagi, Ashton, Foden, I'm all happy about, and there's plenty following up the premiership in those positions, but other than Fourie and potentially someone like Carl Fearns (Bath cap on) I can't see much. We've never been that blessed in backrow in recent times once Dayglo, Back, Hill et al hung up boots, I still shudder at the thought of Worsley at 7.  A superb defensive tackler, a penalty machine when trying to be McCaw.  Tragedy that Tom Rees is looking ever closer to early retirement.

Anyway, that's a debate for another day.  There's 3 potentially awesome games of WC Rugby to go.  I have to quandary of who to cheer out of Wales and France.


----------



## han (Oct 9, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Me too, but make the final and we've got a chance. TBH I'm delighted to have beaten a very good Irish team, and beaten them well. Wales may not win it, but there's nothing to fear.



I'm really rooting for Wales now - they've played their WC games brilliantly, much better than England have, and they deserve to be where they are. Yes, NZ look the strongest, but I think Wales *could* do it - they've got youth and buckets of confidence on their side.


----------



## mattie (Oct 9, 2011)

Well, the rugby community is now a bit more decent but a little less fun:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ru...lowing-Rugby-World-Cup-exit-to-Australia.html


----------



## mattie (Oct 9, 2011)

*crosses fingers for more resignations*


----------



## bendeus (Oct 9, 2011)

Ben Foden said:
			
		

> We are on the plane home tomorrow and it will be desperately tough to watch *France* play *Wales *in the *Rugby World Cup* semi-final on the television next weekend.
> 
> *It should have been us going on to play Wales. It is one thing to be beaten by a better side. But France weren’t a better side than us.* We just didn’t perform as we know we can and to be honest we didn’t deserve to go through on that display.
> 
> ...



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ru...-absolutely-livid-after-losing-to-France.html

It's attitudes like that, Ben, that cause most neutrals to dislike England. It's also overconfidence - or can I say arrogance - like that that is a major contributor to your watching the rest of the tournament at home.

I'm yet to be convinced that England are 'much better than that' at present. Nothing they have done over their last 8 or so games has proven otherwise.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 9, 2011)

mattie said:


> *crosses fingers for more resignations*



You think Johnno should go, Mattie? His selections were a big part of the problem vs. France, IMO.


----------



## 1927 (Oct 9, 2011)

gabi said:


> So today's performance was 'unwelsh'?
> 
> That is the most patronising nonsense yet posted on this thread, and that takes some doing.



As a proud Welsh man I totally agree with Mattie's comment. Wales are playing totally unlike what I expect of a Welsh team atm. We seem to have learnt how to play with an intensity never before seen from a Welsh side, and we are doing it for 80minutes a game.

Having watched the ABs this morning I would say that if we reach the final even they will have to up there game somewhat to compete with us in this form. I have never been prouder to be Welsh than this weekend and whavetever happens next weekend this bunch of players are heroes to a man. I truly think that those 30 odd guys really have the belief that they can win the whole bloody thing and that is about as unwelsh as you can get!!


----------



## bendeus (Oct 9, 2011)

Yes, Mattie is entirely correct. We are not playing in a particularly 'Welsh' way. The flair is being earned through grit, physicality and steel, and we're not psychologically imploding. Very unwelsh


----------



## 1927 (Oct 9, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Yes, I am a very happy man. Something fundamental has changed with this squad. There's a quiet belief suffusing our ranks; some young players with no fear, who are starting to realise just how good they are, some older heads - Phillips, Roberts - who are finding top form at exactly the right time. They're a team playing for each other and discovering that there aren't too many limits to what they're capable of. What's also interesting is that players I had thought were fucking shite, such as Charteris and Bennett, are tearing up trees for the cause. They've found another gear.
> 
> I guess I have to hand it to Gatland, and eat my words. He has slowly and patiently crafted a side that is capable of really competing at this WC, putting together the building blocks one-by-one. What he now appears to have is the personnel to execute the style of play he's been trying to instil. It's very interesting to witness.
> 
> ...



Probably the single most accurate post in urban history, if i could like this 100times I would. Nail on head sir. Charteris and Bennet are probably the 2 most improved players in the tournament, I had written off our chances off ever winning a line out when Rees was injured. Warburton is playing like a man who has been capped a 100 times and seen and done everything in the game. Toby has stepped up to the mark massively, North just gets better and better. In the centre we have incredible talent and when even Mike Phillips can put in vintage performances you know something special is happening.(by the way Bends have you noticed that Phillips seems to have got rid of that little half step he always used to have before passing the ball which always cost half a second and telegraphed his intentions?)

You just know that bar room debates will ensue about whetehr this team is better than the greats of the 70s, but personally I think its fair to say that very few of them would get in this team Maybe a new thread is needed but I would be interested in people's views.


----------



## 1927 (Oct 9, 2011)

bendeus said:


> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ru...-absolutely-livid-after-losing-to-France.html
> 
> It's attitudes like that, Ben, that cause most neutrals to dislike England. It's also overconfidence - or can I say arrogance - like that that is a major contributor to your watching the rest of the tournament at home.
> 
> I'm yet to be convinced that England are 'much better than that' at present. Nothing they have done over their last 8 or so games has proven otherwise.



I'm gutted France won yesterday, winning the world cup would have been so much sweeter if we had got the chance to rub England's noses in the dirt on the way to the final. England should be thankful that they went out narrowly to France rather than having a collective new arsehole ripped for them by Sam and the boys!


----------



## 1927 (Oct 9, 2011)

If anyone is interested tescos in cardiff are selling tickets for the autumn international against Australia, £50 a pop. Havent been willing to fork out to watch wales play for years, but got meself a couple yesterday.


----------



## mattie (Oct 9, 2011)

1927 said:


> I'm gutted France won yesterday, winning the world cup would have been so much sweeter if we had got the chance to rub England's noses in the dirt on the way to the final. England should be thankful that they went out narrowly to France rather than having a collective new arsehole ripped for them by Sam and the boys!



Was that intentionally ironic?

I fin it odd that our celtic cousins focus so much on the 'arrogance' of England, and yet, well you're not exactly the most humble of victors.  In fact, you're generally total Chelsea fans.

I actually agree with some of Foden's points - although not his means of expressing them.  England did not step up to the plate.  I believe any rugby player should only talk about their own performance, which includes any mention of another team's perceived infringements, and he damn well should be disappointed.  England fucking gifted two tries, and Foden was culpable for at least one of them.

Where I disagree is his comment that 'France were there for the taking'.  That never applies to France and even if it did you may think it but you bloody well never say it.


----------



## ddraig (Oct 9, 2011)

bullshit!


----------



## ddraig (Oct 9, 2011)

1927 said:


> If anyone is interested tescos in cardiff are selling tickets for the autumn international against Australia, £50 a pop. Havent been willing to fork out to watch wales play for years, but got meself a couple yesterday.


tesco??  wtf?
big tesco or all tesco?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 9, 2011)

Um, gifted two tries, or just weren't good enough to stop them? England were the second best team on the day. That's what really matters. The Welsh can point to many instances of individual madness over the years that have cost them games. Doesn't mean they were the better team - being able to keep your head under pressure is part of the test.


----------



## mattie (Oct 9, 2011)

bendeus said:


> You think Johnno should go, Mattie? His selections were a big part of the problem vs. France, IMO.



I think the problems in the Enlgand rugby team start higher than him.  WTF Rob Andrew brings to the party I don't know.

But I have a number of concerns that might be addressed by replacing him.  The general feel is of a 'command and control' approach to life that works only if you grant a bit of local autonomy.  I'm not sure he does that.  I'm also not sure he listens to contrary opinions.  Olly Barkley - one of the best England players in the last WC - dared to speak up and (even though we're crying out for inside centres) is banished.  From what I gather, Steve Borthwick did likewise and went from captain to outcast - although, on that point, we have problems with picking captains who many think aren't actually up to the mark for the first XV (a certain monarch-in-waiting being a prime example).

He had a few problems with selections, Matt Stevens and the Courtenay Lawes/Gunshow at 6 being two, but I'm not sure what else he could do.  I would have gone with Flood at 10 and Banahan at 12 - I've seen enough of Banahan at 12 in HC cup game to know he can do a job - instead, we had general confusion.  By the time you get to the game you've got to trust the players to do their jobs.  You don't drop the ones who have been doing a job or play someone out of position when options are open.  I was pleased to see a creator at 12, at least, as I had a feeling they'd run a lot more than kick, but Banahan and Tuilagi would be perfect crash-balls to play off - and Banahan has decent enough hands to offload for the back 3.

The reason I give Jonno some slack is that he simply didn't have options at 7 or 8.  Gunshow isn't a snaffler, and can't control at the scrum (something Easter excels at).  Mind you. he did drop Fourie, but he since got injured so would'n thav efeatured anyway.  Losing Sheridan was a kicker, but we had options to get round that.  We didn't take the right ones.


----------



## mattie (Oct 9, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Um, gifted two tries, or just weren't good enough to stop them? England were the second best team on the day. That's what really matters. The Welsh can point to many instances of individual madness over the years that have cost them games. Doesn't mean they were the better team - being able to keep your head under pressure is part of the test.



Yes. Gifted - the second in particular. He beat Wilko, fair enough, he's got good gas, but how the fuck Youngs and Foden let him through I've no idea.

And I've no idea what you're getitn at with the second part - of course France were better, no-onew is saying otherwise.  They conceded a 'bounce-of-the-ball try' which is defined by luck as well as judgement (although England finished off a decent move for the other), but after that they played good territorial rugby and snuffed out any resurgence.  Pienaar expressed surprise that Trinh-Duc was subbed on, I thought it sensibly as he kicked well and pushed us back to our own try-line.  France did what was needed.  Their backrow were excellent, expect that to be a fascinating part of the Semi-Final.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 9, 2011)

Well, yes. Tbf, I'd be very disappointed by those tries if I were English. But a rugby team is only as strong as its weakest link, particularly in defence.

My point stands, though. It is absurd to claim, as that poster did, that the better team lost. Oh no, they didn't.


----------



## mattie (Oct 9, 2011)

ddraig said:


> bullshit!



Fuck off, bigoty boy.


----------



## ddraig (Oct 9, 2011)

mattie said:


> Fuck off, bigoty boy.


boo fucking hoo
sad loser boy


----------



## mattie (Oct 9, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Well, yes. Tbf, I'd be very disappointed by those tries if I were English. But a rugby team is only as strong as its weakest link, particularly in defence.
> 
> My point stands, though. It is absurd to claim, as that poster did, that the better team lost. Oh no, they didn't.



What poster?

England swhould be disappointed, they passed at fly-halves that weren't looking, they bounced balls off the backs of team-mates.

You win rugby by building pressure or withstanding.  England crumbled under minimal pressure, France withstood a lot of pressure well.  They won, they deserved to win.  Foden should be disappointed.  Fullbacks can't wave opposition wingers through, like he did.


----------



## mattie (Oct 9, 2011)

ddraig said:


> boo fucking hoo
> sad loser boy



1927, here's one of your Chelsea fans.

He's a bigot, so the epithet is correct.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 9, 2011)

1927 said:


> I'm gutted France won yesterday, winning the world cup would have been so much sweeter if we had got the chance to rub England's noses in the dirt on the way to the final. England should be thankful that they went out narrowly to France rather than having a collective new arsehole ripped for them by Sam and the boys!



Hubris of the highest order


----------



## bendeus (Oct 9, 2011)

mattie said:


> I fin it odd that our celtic cousins focus so much on the 'arrogance' of England, and yet, well you're not exactly the most humble of victors. In fact, you're generally total Chelsea fans.



. Except most of us started supporting Wales prior to 2001



> I actually agree with some of Foden's points - although not his means of expressing them. England did not step up to the plate. I believe any rugby player should only talk about their own performance, which includes any mention of another team's perceived infringements, and he damn well should be disappointed. England fucking gifted two tries, and Foden was culpable for at least one of them.
> 
> Where I disagree is his comment that 'France were there for the taking'. That never applies to France and even if it did you may think it but you bloody well never say it.



Foden has had problems with foot-in-mouth disease before, no? To claim that England 'should' be facing Wales in the s/f, and that they were the better side smacks of a sense of entitlement that is neither merited or earned. France were the better side on the day, which is why they won, and why they 'should' be facing us.

It is arrogant to suggest otherwise.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 9, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Hubris of the highest order


Indeed! 

I was wondering about this this morning, but no, England losing to France and then Wales beating France would be the absolutely ideal outcome.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 9, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> My point stands, though. It is absurd to claim, as that poster did, that the better team lost. Oh no, they didn't.



The 'poster' was England fullback, Ben Foden, LBJ


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 9, 2011)

bendeus said:


> The 'poster' was England fullback, Ben Foden, LBJ


Oh, I thought it was a poster who'd registered under that name as a wheeze. 

I seeeeeee. Makes sense now.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 9, 2011)

mattie said:


> I think the problems in the Enlgand rugby team start higher than him. WTF Rob Andrew brings to the party I don't know.



Me neither, but he has the animal cunning both to gather power to himself and cling on to it in spite of his signal failings, doesn't he?



> But I have a number of concerns that might be addressed by replacing him. The general feel is of a 'command and control' approach to life that works only if you grant a bit of local autonomy. I'm not sure he does that. I'm also not sure he listens to contrary opinions. Olly Barkley - one of the best England players in the last WC - dared to speak up and (even though we're crying out for inside centres) is banished. From what I gather, Steve Borthwick did likewise and went from captain to outcast - although, on that point, we have problems with picking captains who many think aren't actually up to the mark for the first XV (a certain monarch-in-waiting being a prime example).



Gatland is similar, mind. Those who fall out of favour (Peel, Delve, Biggar) stay out of favour permanently. I guess it's only when the (chariot) wheels start falling off that this kind of stuff is scrutinised.



> He had a few problems with selections, Matt Stevens and the Courtenay Lawes/Gunshow at 6 being two, but I'm not sure what else he could do. I would have gone with Flood at 10 and Banahan at 12 - I've seen enough of Banahan at 12 in HC cup game to know he can do a job - instead, we had general confusion. By the time you get to the game you've got to trust the players to do their jobs. You don't drop the ones who have been doing a job or play someone out of position when options are open. I was pleased to see a creator at 12, at least, as I had a feeling they'd run a lot more than kick, but Banahan and Tuilagi would be perfect crash-balls to play off - and Banahan has decent enough hands to offload for the back 3.



I think he should have started Shaw, Flood at 10, and The Brand at 8, myself. His faith in Wilkinson, while touching, was utterly misplaced.



> The reason I give Jonno some slack is that he simply didn't have options at 7 or 8. Gunshow isn't a snaffler, and can't control at the scrum (something Easter excels at). Mind you. he did drop Fourie, but he since got injured so would'n thav efeatured anyway.



I guess when you can't magic key positions out of thin air it does limit your options. Do you think he'll stay or go?


----------



## kabbes (Oct 9, 2011)

mattie said:


> 1927, here's one of your Chelsea fans.
> 
> He's a bigot, so the epithet is correct.


----------



## mattie (Oct 9, 2011)

I agree it's distasteful, mainly as he's commenting on the opposition (in terms sof them being in some disarray and out of form), which I hate.

He's saying that he thinks they could have won the game, had they played better.  England played well in spots but ballsed up any openings they forged, and still ended up within a score of levelling.  He's right to say they blew their chance.  They did.  They're not going to beat France by firing passes into thin air or passing two feet behind runners, or any of the mistakes they made which ruined any progress they made.  They're capable of not throwing passes into thin air or behind runners, in which case they might have had a chance (that, and not knocking on, and not dropping off tackles).  Seeing as his major balls-up led to the 7 points they won by, I can see why he might feel that.

Ben, I blame you too.


----------



## mattie (Oct 9, 2011)

kabbes said:


>



Soz.  One of the _bad_ Chelsea, hence present company excluded.


----------



## 1927 (Oct 9, 2011)

An Englishman, Scotsman and Irishman are in a bar. The Welshman wasn't there he was still in New Zealand.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Oct 9, 2011)

Dan Roan on twitter said:
			
		

> RFU source confirms England's Manu Tuilagi detained by Auckland police after jumping off ferry last night into harbour - since released



Lol


----------



## bendeus (Oct 9, 2011)

They're the team that just keep giving, aren't they?


----------



## mattie (Oct 9, 2011)

Not much harm in it now.


----------



## Grandma Death (Oct 9, 2011)

Sorry if this debate has been had but does anyone think Martin Johnson should resign or get pushed cause I think he does.

The English team have so many good players and I dont think theyve played well as a team. Their discipline on the pitch has been atrocious. I think the way the management team handled the sexual harassment case was questionable and the way they brushed off their behaviour in the dwarf throwing bar needs addressing.

The ball swapping with Wilko. The mouthguard advertising incident. All of these things doesnt strike me as a tightly run ship to be honest. I think England last played _really _well against the ozzies in 2010. They showed real flair and some of that rugby was frankly brilliant.

The 6 Nations championship wasn't all that. They didnt really come up against stiff opposition and when they did (Scotland they struggled-Ireland they got spanked) they looked quite one dimensional.

Martin Johnson has presided over more negatives than positives-so I think he should go. Anybody else agree or not?


----------



## bendeus (Oct 9, 2011)

1927 said:
			
		

> by the way Bends have you noticed that Phillips seems to have got rid of that little half step he always used to have before passing the ball which always cost half a second and telegraphed his intentions?



Forgot to respond to this. Phillips has been on fire this WC. He is back to his best, and his best, while technically lacking, is abrasive, athletic, and defensively colossal. His presence allows us to commit fewer players to defend the ruck, which leaves more players to hit the gainline. Him and Roberts are the most important players Wales have in terms of executing effective Gatlandball.

The try on Saturday was phenomenal; the finest individual effort of the WC, IMO. The more you look at it the more you realise it was a perfect balance of rugby nous, timing and athleticism, and it was the gamechanger.

I luvs Spikey.




			
				Spikey Pikey Mikey said:
			
		

> I'm not sure if I'm the best scrum half in the world, but I reckon I'm definitely in the top one


----------



## bendeus (Oct 9, 2011)

Grandma Death said:


> Sorry if this debate has been had but does anyone think Martin Johnson should resign or get pushed cause I think he does.
> 
> The English team have so many good players and I dont think theyve played well as a team. Their discipline on the pitch has been atrocious. I think the way the management team handled the sexual harassment case was questionable and the way they brushed off their behaviour in the dwarf throwing bar needs addressing.
> 
> ...



I don't think that England's players are all that, TBH. One of them would get a look in to the Lions based on current and recent performances (Foden), though I think he may have just played his way out of that with the defensive errors recently pointed out by Mattie.

I personally just don't reckon that they're that good. This has far less to do with hubris than it does honest observation.


----------



## elfman (Oct 10, 2011)

Saying Johnson should go (I'm not too sure he should personally), who would replace him?


----------



## elfman (Oct 10, 2011)

Also, concerning all the off-the-field-antics in the tournament. Really who gives a fuck about any of that? If you read biographies of rugby players you'll find loads of this sort of thing happens all the time with rugby players but never got reported because they weren't under the media spotlight as much then. If you're interested in rugby, talk about rugby, if you want to talk about the antics of famous people, make another thread because it doesn't belong here imo.


----------



## kabbes (Oct 10, 2011)

I think it's not so much about the players as it is the manager.  You don't think that Johnson having to devote his efforts to press conferences and answering news hounds took his attention away from tactical preparation and building team spirit?


----------



## flypanam (Oct 10, 2011)

Congrats to Wales, you blew us of the pitch. No complaints. You saw chances and you took them and we never ever looked like we could score from deep.

There are things to be said about a number of Irish players but I don't want to seem like I'm taking anything away from Wales because they were awesome. Go win it.


----------



## mattie (Oct 10, 2011)

bendeus said:


> I don't think that England's players are all that, TBH. One of them would get a look in to the Lions based on current and recent performances (Foden), though I think he may have just played his way out of that with the defensive errors recently pointed out by Mattie.
> 
> I personally just don't reckon that they're that good. This has far less to do with hubris than it does honest observation.



If you're referring to current and recent performances, you're rather chopping your closing statement off at the knees.

6 months ago Wales were poor.  Substantially the same team now isn't poor.  Huw Bennett in particular was laughable.  What changes?  Who knows, but it certainly isn't the player's skill levels in that period of time.

I'm worried that England have got weaknesses at key positions, as I've commented on in earlier posts, but to say that the likes of Palmer, Lawes, Cole, Ashton, Youngs and Wilkinson haven't shown quality is more than a bit baffling.  I'd say most of those overshadowed Foden for significant periods over the last year.


----------



## mattie (Oct 10, 2011)

kabbes said:


> I think it's not so much about the players as it is the manager. You don't think that Johnson having to devote his efforts to press conferences and answering news hounds took his attention away from tactical preparation and building team spirit?



It's generally par for the course, what's more troubling is team friction - from what I've heard, many of the Leicester players don't see eye-to-eye with some of the jokier ones. I think it fair to say that Jonno wold rather they al behaved like Leicester players. I tend to agree.

Joking and japing is one thing, getting someone irate enough to force a formal apology is something else again. I'm not even sure if they did a huge amount wrong (edited to qualify - distasteful and pigheaded, yes, but not exactly sexual harassment which has a rather more onerous underpinning) but they've got to realise that they're under a microscope and they're seen as a monolithic group, not as individuals. Toby Flood in particular spoke out about this, a lot of players unhappy with being associated with the pranksters. You can't see Wilkinson getting himself embroiled in similar, can you?


----------



## mattie (Oct 10, 2011)

Grandma Death said:


> Sorry if this debate has been had but does anyone think Martin Johnson should resign or get pushed cause I think he does.
> 
> The English team have so many good players and I dont think theyve played well as a team. Their discipline on the pitch has been atrocious. I think the way the management team handled the sexual harassment case was questionable and the way they brushed off their behaviour in the dwarf throwing bar needs addressing.
> 
> ...



I think problems at RFU go higher than Jonno.

At the playing level, I also think he needs to decide whether attitude or ability defines his squad selection. He's happy to discard players who dare to question him, maybe he should consider discarding players who don't seem to take their responsibilities seriously?

The mouthguard issue was purely an IRB commercial issue with Tuilagi, btw, and it's frankly shameful that players can't choose their own safety wear. Team shirts and tracksuits, fine, we wear Nike, accept that as a condition of playing for England, but anything else should be player preference.

England definitely peaked in autumn internationals.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 10, 2011)

elfman said:


> Also, concerning all the off-the-field-antics in the tournament. Really who gives a fuck about any of that? If you read biographies of rugby players you'll find loads of this sort of thing happens all the time with rugby players but never got reported because they weren't under the media spotlight as much then. If you're interested in rugby, talk about rugby, if you want to talk about the antics of famous people, make another thread because it doesn't belong here imo.



You can't separate the two, though. Some people are talking these incidents up with a great dollop of schadenfreude, and in a Heat mag stylee, others are trying to be a bit more analytical about it as an indicator of esprit de corps (or lack of) within the team, and the influence of its manager.

England are one of the biggest names in world rugby, and are managed by one of the code's greatest living legends. They have just crashed out of the world cup (their worst performance since the mid '90s) having played poor, disjointed, anachronistic rugby. All this to the backdrop of a constantly simmering pot of mild scandal and fairly inappropriate behaviour. There is a possibility that there is no causality, but I, for one, doubt it.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 10, 2011)

flypanam said:
			
		

> Congrats to Wales, you blew us of the pitch. No complaints. You saw chances and you took them and we never ever looked like we could score from deep.



Cheers, mate. Exemplifying the good grace that every Irishman except Neil Francis has shown in the wake of the game.



> There are things to be said about a number of Irish players but I don't want to seem like I'm taking anything away from Wales because they were awesome.


 
Are you talking about Earls, O'Gara, DOC, D'Arcy and Heaslip, by any chance?



> Go win it.



Steady!


----------



## bendeus (Oct 10, 2011)

mattie said:


> If you're referring to current and recent performances, you're rather chopping your closing statement off at the knees.
> 
> 6 months ago Wales were poor. Substantially the same team now isn't poor. Huw Bennett in particular was laughable. What changes? Who knows, but it certainly isn't the player's skill levels in that period of time.


 
I would say that six months ago Wales were playing at a level far below their individual and collective potential; something my posts since around 2008 have borne out. This has either been due to lack of form, injuries or not being used properly within the gameplan. Huw Bennett, for all his obvious improvement (he's always been defensively strong and decent in the loose) is still missing around 2/9 of his throws, just for a bit of perspective.



> I'm worried that England have got weaknesses at key positions, as I've commented on in earlier posts, but to say that the likes of Palmer, Lawes, Cole, Ashton, Youngs and Wilkinson haven't shown quality is more than a bit baffling. I'd say most of those overshadowed Foden for significant periods over the last year.


I'm not for a second suggesting that they 'haven't shown quality', but of the names you mentioned I would have named precisely one as a possible Lions XV starter six months ago. I still think Lawes has a lot to prove before he could be talked up as world class. Palmer? Youngs has also only shown his undoubted promise in patches. Wilkinson is clearly past it at the top level, and has looked it for some time. Cole is not as good as Adam. Ashton is excellent, mind, but can go missing.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that personnel-wise England may not be as good as they, or their fans, think they are, and that this could be the main contributory factor to their lack of success.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 10, 2011)

Sorry about this:

_England's RWC 2011 by headlines: Bungee-gate; Cleavage-gate; Dwarf-gate; Ball-gate; Chambermaid-gate; Ferry-gate and, finally, Departure-gate _


----------



## flypanam (Oct 10, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Are you talking about Earls, O'Gara, DOC, D'Arcy and Heaslip, by any chance?



Yup and Tommy.


----------



## mattie (Oct 10, 2011)

bendeus said:


> I would say that six months ago Wales were playing at a level far below their individual and collective potential; something my posts since around 2008 have borne out. This has either been due to lack of form, injuries or not being used properly within the gameplan. Huw Bennett, for all his obvious improvement (he's always been defensively strong and decent in the loose) is still missing around 2/9 of his throws, just for a bit of perspective.
> 
> I'm not for a second suggesting that they 'haven't shown quality', but of the names you mentioned I would have named precisely one as a possible Lions XV starter six months ago. I still think Lawes has a lot to prove before he could be talked up as world class. Palmer? Youngs has also only shown his undoubted promise in patches. Wilkinson is clearly past it at the top level, and has looked it for some time. Cole is not as good as Adam. Ashton is excellent, mind, but can go missing.
> 
> I guess the point I'm trying to make is that personnel-wise England may not be as good as they, or their fans, think they are, and that this could be the main contributory factor to their lack of success.



Palmer would be the one who leads the line-out, making it solid after Deacon has failed to do so, forces more turnover ball than anyone else (yes, faint praise given lack of true 7, but praise nonetheless) and makes huge tackles, including excellent saving tackles in the Autumn internationals.  He has put in some excellent shifts, matching the potential that was noted in his early career.

But this is sort of the point.  I'm looking out for performances of England players, and I can see decent talent in there.  It doesn't always come to fruition - certainly it hasn't over the last month - but it seems foolish to base opinions of players on a strict subset of games.

The last sentence, btw, does verge on this arrogance that for some reason is criminal in others - you're saying your impressions are truer than others.  Some of us watch these players week in, week out, in Premiership and HC games.  I'm not going to say I'm a perfect judge of player (I was convinced Nick Abendanon would be an England regular by now!) but you've shown little other than reaction to poor collective performances to indicate any particular insight on any player in white.

I appreciate you'd like your final observation to be true, I'm not sure that makes it true.  Sorry.


----------



## han (Oct 10, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Sorry about this:
> 
> _England's RWC 2011 by headlines: Bungee-gate; Cleavage-gate; Dwarf-gate; Ball-gate; Chambermaid-gate; Ferry-gate and, finally, Departure-gate _



I don't get all this rejoicing over England's failure. I know we didn't deserve to stay in, but why the gloating? You don't get it with any other nation. I wouldn't dream of saying 'hurrah, the Irish are out' - I just congratulated Wales on their win.

And people use the excuse of history, England being Imperialistic in the past, etc, which is a bit pathetic. It usually comes from people who actually LIVE here as well, and love living here, which I think is ironic.


----------



## editor (Oct 10, 2011)

Maybe its something to do with the fact that when Wales win, we still end up getting less media coverage than when England _lose. _Gets a bit annoying after a while.


----------



## mattie (Oct 10, 2011)

han said:


> I don't get all this rejoicing over England's failure. I know we didn't deserve to stay in, but why the gloating? You don't get it with any other nation. I wouldn't dream of saying 'hurrah, the Irish are out' - I just congratulated Wales on their win.
> 
> And people use the excuse of history, England being Imperialistic in the past, etc, which is a bit pathetic. It usually comes from people who actually LIVE here as well, and love living here, which I think is ironic.



To be fair, I think many are exhausted by the popular press fanfare that builds England up.  I've had the misfortune to be staying in Wales during the 6N, and after having seen the boot on the other foot, so to speak, I can see just how irritating parochial bias, plastic fans and triumphalism can be.  And the Welsh press are considerably more restrained than some of the England-centric press.


----------



## mattie (Oct 10, 2011)

editor said:


> Maybe its something to do with the fact that when Wales win, we still end up getting less media coverage than when England _lose. _Gets a bit annoying after a while.


 
Despite my post below, it's more than that. I recall you posted a rather unpleasant little comment in the 6N before last.


----------



## editor (Oct 10, 2011)

mattie said:


> Despite my post below, it's more than that. I recall you posted a rather unpleasant little comment in the 6N before last.


"Unpleasant," how, exactly?

I'm amazed you can ever remember what I posted to be honest. I certainly can't. It's just banter - just like when I had a line of toffs screaming 'sheep shagger' at me when I saw Wales beat England at Wembley some years back. (well, they were singing that until they lost).


----------



## bendeus (Oct 10, 2011)

mattie said:


> Palmer would be the one who leads the line-out, making it solid after Deacon has failed to do so, forces more turnover ball than anyone else (yes, faint praise given lack of true 7, but praise nonetheless) and makes huge tackles, including excellent saving tackles in the Autumn internationals. He has put in some excellent shifts, matching the potential that was noted in his early career.
> 
> But this is sort of the point. I'm looking out for performances of England players, and I can see decent talent in there. It doesn't always come to fruition - certainly it hasn't over the last month - but it seems foolish to base opinions of players on a strict subset of games.
> 
> ...



Fair points all round. As a non-viewer of the AP, and only really catching HEC games containing Welsh teams, I'm certainly not equipped to comment on sub-international level games.

I feel I was able to call Wales on underperformance due to the fact that I have seen those very players win grand slams and perform with great merit in Lions' games, e.g. at the highest level, and thus have been able to compare where they are on the curve with where they were at at any given point. I still do not consider HEC or AP games to represent this (Charlie Hodgson, anyone?)

I am, however, equipped to discuss what I see at international level, and nothing I have seen from the current England squad is telling me that it has the personnel to win a world cup. As an aside, I'm afraid I don't consider the AIs to be an adequate measure of where a team is, mainly because nobody gives a fuck about them resultswise, and the European teams are viewing them more by way of preparation for the 6N, which they do give a fuck about. This isn't arrogance, it's just calling it as I see it based on the (admittedly limited) observations of the team.

Their single greatest achievement so far has been winning the championship in the last 6N. A series in which they were smashed off the park by Ireland in one of the most comprehensive pwnings I have seen handed out to an England side for many a moon. As I say, the minute they show - really show - what they're capable of in anything but fleeting glimpses, I'll revise. Until then, I will regard them as yet another England side labouring under the burden of far too much hype and far too little substance.


----------



## mattie (Oct 10, 2011)

editor said:


> "Unpleasant," how, exactly?
> 
> I'm amazed you can ever remember what I posted to be honest. I certainly can't. It's just banter - just like when I had a line of toffs screaming 'sheep shagger' at me when I saw Wales beat England at Wembley some years back. (well, they were singing that until they lost).



On searching, it appears I may be confusing you for a certain bigot who frequents these forums - my apologies both for incorrect attribution of a comment and for confusing you with a bigot.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 10, 2011)

han said:


> I don't get all this rejoicing over England's failure. I know we didn't deserve to stay in, but why the gloating? You don't get it with any other nation. I wouldn't dream of saying 'hurrah, the Irish are out' - I just congratulated Wales on their win.
> 
> And people use the excuse of history, England being Imperialistic in the past, etc, which is a bit pathetic. It usually comes from people who actually LIVE here as well, and love living here, which I think is ironic.


It's hard to explain. It's a feeling, not something that can be intellectualised. When England played France, I was cheering on France, not because I wanted France to win but because I wanted England to lose. Pathetic, I know, but an integral part of being a Welsh rugby supporter nonetheless.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 10, 2011)

han said:


> I don't get all this rejoicing over England's failure. I know we didn't deserve to stay in, but why the gloating? You don't get it with any other nation. I wouldn't dream of saying 'hurrah, the Irish are out' - I just congratulated Wales on their win.
> 
> And people use the excuse of history, England being Imperialistic in the past, etc, which is a bit pathetic. It usually comes from people who actually LIVE here as well, and love living here, which I think is ironic.



Try being a resident of one of the other home nations and watching the ITV coverage of the WC. You may gain a teeny, tiny glimpse of understanding as to why there's a bit of smirking from the Celtic fringe.

And it was only a joke, btw


----------



## bendeus (Oct 10, 2011)

mattie said:


> To be fair, I think many are exhausted by the popular press fanfare that builds England up. I've had the misfortune to be staying in Wales during the 6N, and after having seen the boot on the other foot, so to speak, I can see just how irritating parochial bias, plastic fans and triumphalism can be. And the Welsh press are considerably more restrained than some of the England-centric press.



Spot on.


----------



## editor (Oct 10, 2011)

mattie said:


> On searching, it appears I may be confusing you for a certain bigot who frequents these forums - my apologies both for incorrect attribution of a comment and for confusing you with a bigot.


Thank you kindly. I may enjoy teasing and taking the piss out of the Englisch, but a bigot I am not.


----------



## han (Oct 10, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Try being a resident of one of the other home nations and watching the ITV coverage of the WC. You may gain a teeny, tiny glimpse of understanding as to why there's a bit of smirking from the Celtic fringe.



Ah, ok, I see what you mean - yes, the UK media is very England-centric, I  hadn't really thought of that. That must be quite annoying for Welsh/Scottish people living in England (or the whole British Isles), I guess. But then again, S4C (in Wales), and Alba (in Scotland) isn't going to be supporting England at all, obviously, are they.

I appreciate that support and coverage of England may dominate IN England, and people may find that frustrating, but isn't that to be expected really? Where I can see your point is in Wales and Scotland where ITV have the live matches (and S4C/Alba only have it on later in the day), the coverage is pretty England-centric, yes. That must be annoying.

I still think that rejoicing in other people's failure though, is a bit off. I know it's only a joke, but it always seems to be ok when it's directed at England.


----------



## 1927 (Oct 10, 2011)

With all this talk about media bias, did you know that on saturday the Mail did not make a single reference to the fact that Wales even had a game!

Maybe thats why we are gloating just a tad!


----------



## mattie (Oct 10, 2011)

1927 said:


> With all this talk about media bias, did you know that on saturday the Mail did not make a single reference to the fact that Wales even had a game!
> 
> Maybe thats why we are gloating just a tad!



The Mail


----------



## mattie (Oct 10, 2011)

han said:


> Ah, ok, I see what you mean - yes, the UK media is very England-centric, I hadn't really thought of that. That must be quite annoying for Welsh/Scottish people living in England (or the whole British Isles), I guess. But then again, S4C (in Wales), and Alba (in Scotland) isn't going to be supporting England at all, obviously, are they.
> 
> I appreciate that support and coverage of England may dominate IN England, and people may find that frustrating, but isn't that to be expected really? Where I can see your point is in Wales and Scotland where ITV have the live matches (and S4C/Alba only have it on later in the day), the coverage is pretty England-centric, yes. That must be annoying.
> 
> I still think that rejoicing in other people's failure though, is a bit off. I know it's only a joke, but it always seems to be ok when it's directed at England.



There is certainly an edge to it.


----------



## kabbes (Oct 10, 2011)

I was in Scotland whilst watching the Eng-Sco match and, frankly, I was embarrassed at the level of pro-Eng coverage bias.


----------



## mattie (Oct 10, 2011)

kabbes said:


> I was in Scotland whilst watching the Eng-Sco match and, frankly, I was embarrassed at the level of pro-Eng coverage bias.



ITV are targeting whatever key audience they can - and mostly hitting half-interested English people. Steve Rider has been way out of his depth, and the colour commentary - although Vickery is hilarious when he gets wound up - is generally woeful. I heard Tom Rees on beeb radio commentating on a Wasps game, and although a current Wasps player he managed to provide impartial insight - granted, this might be more necessary on radio, but it made listening a real pleasure. That's not what Vickery, Gomersall (and on sky, Greenwood et al) are paid to do.

It's tragic, there are loads of ex-pros who could provide real insight but instead we get soundbites.

It's sad, but this is what the press is - whatever the tastes or interests of the target market, rather than anything actually of substance. It certainly explains two-page spreads in the Sun about some footballer's new house, or MOTD rattling on about a gesture to the crowd or sulky response to being substituted rather than the game itself.


----------



## mattie (Oct 10, 2011)

Mils Muliaina has announced his retirement from internationals.  Only 31.

In less sad but more annoying news for your intrepid bath fan, NZ have called up Steven Donald.  Bastards.  They better not break him.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 10, 2011)

han said:


> I appreciate that support and coverage of England may dominate IN England, and people may find that frustrating, but isn't that to be expected really? Where I can see your point is in Wales and Scotland where ITV have the live matches (and S4C/Alba only have it on later in the day), the coverage is pretty England-centric, yes. That must be annoying.



I live in Wales. In order to watch the WC live I am forced to watch ITV, which is mandated as a broadcaster for the British Isles and has a responsibility to demonstrate even-handedness across the home nations. Their pro-English bias is naked, breathless and infuriating



> I still think that rejoicing in other people's failure though, is a bit off. I know it's only a joke, but it always seems to be ok when it's directed at England.



Bloody hell, mun, it's _sport_. You know, where reasonable people become slavering dogs, where rationality, balance and a binocular view of the world go out the window amidst a hailstorm of primitive emotions, passions and, dare I say it, bias and preconceptions.

England are, and will always be the cardboard cutout baddies of the piece, y'know, the ones we love to hate. This is because rugby is predominantly a game played by ex-colonies of England, thus ensuring a complex cocktail of chippiness, inferiority complexes and rightly or wrongly placed historical resentments.

Historically, on the part of the Welsh, it's because rugby here is a working class sport forged in the bellows of the steelworks and the mines. International rugby was the only chance we got to smash the bosses up, both literally and metaphorically, on the pitch. Rugby here was always very much married to class war, and rugby in England is played by the upper middle class.

The way the British media portray England in comparison to the other home nations perpetuates this ill-feeling, because it does nothing but confirm those very preconceptions held by Celtic nations about England's perceived arrogant and supercilious attitude. That this image frequently (or even mostly) doesn't reflect the average English player or fan is inconsequential. The portrayal by the 'British' media of English rugby is, IMO, very damaging to other countries' regard of you.

A final point - check out the reactions to the Aussies getting beaten by the Irish in the pool stages. The crims are the other side that many love to hate, and they got no more mercy than England did, IMO.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 10, 2011)

mattie said:


> Mils Muliaina has announced his retirement from internationals. Only 31.



Mario Ledesma gone also. Jeebus surely, and Ickle to follow after the WC, maybe BOD too. We've seen the last of some real titans of the game.


----------



## mattie (Oct 10, 2011)

bendeus said:


> I live in Wales. In order to watch the WC live I am forced to watch ITV, which is mandated as a broadcaster for the British Isles and has a responsibility to demonstrate even-handedness across the home nations. Their pro-English bias is naked, breathless and infuriating
> 
> Bloody hell, mun, it's _sport_. You know, where reasonable people become slavering dogs, where rationality, balance and a binocular view of the world go out the window amidst a hailstorm of primitive emotions, passions and, dare I say it, bias and preconceptions.
> 
> ...



I think many English fans get a bit tired of being 'blamed' for the media. They're selling advertising space, I'd rather they didn't, I'd rather we shove Inverdale off a cliff, but there we are.

But individuals are responsible for their reactions. Some - present company included, as are many of the other regulars - are reasonable and take it for the fun and games that it (literally) is, but there is some real nastiness to some of the posts. I'd ask you to consider that, instead of excusing it against the actions of some third party.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 10, 2011)

mattie said:


> ITV are targeting whatever key audience they can - and mostly hitting half-interested English people. Steve Rider has been way out of his depth, and the colour commentary - although Vickery is hilarious when he gets wound up - is generally woeful. I heard Tom Rees on beeb radio commentating on a Wasps game, and although a current Wasps player he managed to provide impartial insight - granted, this might be more necessary on radio, but it made listening a real pleasure. That's not what Vickery, Gomersall (and on sky, Greenwood et al) are paid to do.
> 
> It's tragic, there are loads of ex-pros who could provide real insight but instead we get soundbites.
> 
> It's sad, but this is what the press is - whatever the tastes or interests of the target market, rather than anything actually of substance. It certainly explains two-page spreads in the Sun about some footballer's new house, or MOTD rattling on about a gesture to the crowd or sulky response to being substituted rather than the game itself.



Aye. This is why ITV should never have had the WC - this or the last. The Beeb have their pro-English moments, too (step forward John Inverdale), but appear to put far, far more effort into at least looking impartial. I guess they have less duty towards pulling in those floating viewers in order to justify advertiser investment.


----------



## mattie (Oct 10, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Aye. This is why ITV should never have had the WC - this or the last. The Beeb have their pro-English moments, too (step forward John Inverdale), but appear to put far, far more effort into at least looking impartial. I guess they have less duty towards pulling in those floating viewers in order to justify advertiser investment.



Inverdale represents the godawful smugness I thought sky might go for.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 10, 2011)

mattie said:


> I think many English fans get a bit tired of being 'blamed' for the media. They're selling advertising space, I'd rather they didn't, I'd rather we shove Inverdale off a cliff, but there we are.
> 
> But individuals are responsible for their reactions. Some - present company excluded, as are many of the other regulars - are reasonable and take it for the fun and games that it (literally) is, but there is some real nastiness to some of the posts. I'd ask you to consider that, instead of excusing it against the actions of some third party.



I can see why, and in fairness you've gone on record on a number of occasions criticising both ITV and BBC coverage.

Sorry if I'm being dim, but I don't recall too much bile at any point over the history of the rugby threads. Clearly as it was directed at England you'd remember far more readily than I would. Proper nastiness on a rugby thread ain't good, though, by the same token there does anecdotally appear to be an upsurge in boorish, parochial, aggressive behaviour towards visiting fans in the stadia. It moves us closer to the footie, which is something I hope rugby avoids.


----------



## 1927 (Oct 10, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Mario Ledesma gone also. Jeebus surely, and Ickle to follow after the WC, maybe BOD too. We've seen the last of some real titans of the game.


I think Ickle could be persuaded to play on. Its not as of he is being found out by a lack of pace or anything. Problem is, players like him often see an occasion like we will have every game we stay in as being the ultimate achievement of their career and chose that as a good moment to bow out. Would love to see Ickle winning the RWC against the ABs just so he can ask Graham Henry if he still thinks he is too small for international rugby!


----------



## mattie (Oct 10, 2011)

bendeus said:


> I can see why, and in fairness you've gone on record on a number of occasions criticising both ITV and BBC coverage.
> 
> Sorry if I'm being dim, but I don't recall too much bile at any point over the history of the rugby threads. Clearly as it was directed at England you'd remember far more readily than I would. Proper nastiness on a rugby thread ain't good, though, by the same token there does anecdotally appear to be an upsurge in boorish, parochial, aggressive behaviour towards visiting fans in the stadia. It moves us closer to the footie, which is something I hope rugby avoids.



Check 2009 and 2010 threads.  It's mostly one in particular, who has some history for bigotry, but the problem is the crescendo builds.  I also think it moves us closer to being plastic Chelsea (sorry kabbes) where people jump in to exercise some other agenda or simply to be objectionable.

I must admit I've not seen much nastiness in grounds, aside from what a few beers and a competitive game might bring out.  I sincerely hope it stays that way.  To be honest, the Rec can be a bit quiet and a few wasted Exeter fans with drums is precisely what's needed.  As long as I'm not too close to the drums.  I've generally gone to internationals with people of all nationalities, which is perhaps why it's never been an issue.  I think the desire not to segregate prevents the 'us-and-them' mentality as well.


----------



## mattie (Oct 10, 2011)

1927 said:


> I think Ickle could be persuaded to play on. Its not as of he is being found out by a lack of pace or anything. Problem is, players like him often see an occasion like we will have every game we stay in as being the ultimate achievement of their career and chose that as a good moment to bow out. Would love to see Ickle winning the RWC against the ABs just so he can ask Graham Henry if he still thinks he is too small for international rugby!



It's usually creeping influence of injury (and the increasing time needed for recovery) that curtails a career, hopefully ickle can keep clear - if he can combine that with the necessary motivation, he still looks the part.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 10, 2011)

1927 said:


> I think Ickle could be persuaded to play on. Its not as of he is being found out by a lack of pace or anything. Problem is, players like him often see an occasion like we will have every game we stay in as being the ultimate achievement of their career and chose that as a good moment to bow out. Would love to see Ickle winning the RWC against the ABs just so he can ask Graham Henry if he still thinks he is too small for international rugby!



He is now just six or seven tries short of Campese's total (second highest in world rugby behind that Japanese chap who scored all of his against Laos and Nepal ). Should bow out on that, IMO.


----------



## mattie (Oct 10, 2011)

bendeus said:


> He is now just six or seven tries short of Campese's total (second highest in world rugby behind that Japanese chap who scored all of his against Laos and Nepal ). Should bow out on that, IMO.



I don't think anyone would begrudge him dumping Campese one place down the list.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 10, 2011)

mattie said:


> Check 2009 and 2010 threads. It's mostly one in particular, who has some history for bigotry, but the problem is the crescendo builds. I also think it moves us closer to being plastic Chelsea (sorry kabbes) where people jump in to exercise some other agenda or simply to be objectionable.



Will do.



> I must admit I've not seen much nastiness in grounds, aside from what a few beers and a competitive game might bring out. I sincerely hope it stays that way. To be honest, the Rec can be a bit quiet and a few wasted Exeter fans with drums is precisely what's needed. As long as I'm not too close to the drums. I've generally gone to internationals with people of all nationalities, which is perhaps why it's never been an issue. I think the desire not to segregate prevents the 'us-and-them' mentality as well.



Happening more frequently in Wales. Some real football-terrace type stuff, unfortunately.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 10, 2011)

mattie said:


> I don't think anyone would begrudge him dumping Campese one place down the list.



Campese would begrudge him bumping Campese down


----------



## flypanam (Oct 10, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Mario Ledesma gone also. Jeebus surely, and Ickle to follow after the WC, maybe BOD too. We've seen the last of some real titans of the game.



I think BOD is staying on until after the three test tour of NZ next year.

On the attitude to England I think bendy is spot on. Though In Ireland it is a little different in that we have a massive weight of history and as such rugby being a all ireland game certainly brings some feelings to the surface. Let face it, there's plenty of a republician (notice litte r) who love nothing better than beating England, and there are people in Unionist communities who love beating them too (i suspect a. its a good feeling. b. they are as mistrustful of England as republicans.)

On another note, I think the major failling of English rugby lies not with Jonno, or the team but with the Clubs and the Aviva Premiership. It's just not that good.

eta: Mattie I wold welcome your views on ireland.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 10, 2011)

flypanam said:


> On another note, I think the major failling of English rugby lies not with Jonno, or the team but with the Clubs and the Aviva Premiership. It's just not that good.



A poster on another rugby board I lurk on, who appears to have connections fairly high up in PRL, claims that they are seriously talking about a British League, starting with an Anglo-Welsh one, at the highest level. He reckons that this has gathered more momentum since England's poor showing, and a recognition that they need to start playing against teams who can bring something different to the table so as to expose young, English players to rugby outside the goldfish bowl.

It would be interesting, and brilliant for the sport in both the UK and Ireland, if it were true.


----------



## mattie (Oct 10, 2011)

flypanam said:


> I think BOD is staying on until after the three test tour of NZ next year.
> 
> On the attitude to England I think bendy is spot on. Though In Ireland it is a little different in that we have a massive weight of history and as such rugby being a all ireland game certainly brings some feelings to the surface. Let face it, there's plenty of a republician (notice litte r) who love nothing better than beating England, and there are people in Unionist communities who love beating them too (i suspect a. its a good feeling. b. they are as mistrustful of England as republicans.)
> 
> ...



In what way is the AP not good?

Too many teams (too much distillation of quality, too many whipping boys), too many games, threat of relegation driving conservatism, balls-up of elite player programme implementation?

English teams seem to do OK in Europe - Northampton suffering from a weak bench against a very, very impressive Leinster fightback in last year's HC final.

Sadly, as far as Europe goes, Bath are excepted.  They're competitive, but in recent years lacking some real tight-five grunt.  We lost against Ulster for a few years running as we couldn't front up to them - Ferris, although obviously not tight 5, was a beast - and we mysteriously let Trimble run the length of the Rec.  I never thought we were a million miles out, we lost to Leicester in the knock-outs a few years back and suffered with sackings for a few years, but we're competitive with most European teams.

On Ireland, I'm glad to see some force has been found in the scrums, it seemed madness that a team with brick shithouses for a backrow couldn't find a few props who could hold a side up.  The young 9 looked OK in the games I caught, but Sexton really didn't look that great.  For all the ability in the backs, only BOD seems to actually be able to grab a game by the balls, which I think is not helped by problems at 10.  O'Gara is an excellent tactical kicker, but there's a time to spin it and a time to run it  - I did see O'Gara try a few steps, mostly to get smashed.

Heaslip looked out of sorts, Again that man Ferris looks the business.  A tragedy Dave Wallace popped his knee, I would have been interested to see him at 7 with O'Brien at 8 - although not sure what O'Brien's skillset is up to in that position.  POC had some very good games, hugely powerful.


----------



## 1927 (Oct 10, 2011)

bendeus said:


> A poster on another rugby board I lurk on, who appears to have connections fairly high up in PRL, claims that they are seriously talking about a British League, starting with an Anglo-Welsh one, at the highest level. He reckons that this has gathered more momentum since England's poor showing, and a recognition that they need to start playing against teams who can bring something different to the table so as to expose young, English players to rugby outside the goldfish bowl.
> 
> It would be interesting, and brilliant for the sport in both the UK and Ireland, if it were true.



It wont matter what type of league structure is in place if the teams competing are full of overseas players. i seem to remember a couple of seasons ago in the Zurich there were only 2 english qualified scrum halves playing.


----------



## mattie (Oct 10, 2011)

bendeus said:


> A poster on another rugby board I lurk on, who appears to have connections fairly high up in PRL, claims that they are seriously talking about a British League, starting with an Anglo-Welsh one, at the highest level. He reckons that this has gathered more momentum since England's poor showing, and a recognition that they need to start playing against teams who can bring something different to the table so as to expose young, English players to rugby outside the goldfish bowl.
> 
> It would be interesting, and brilliant for the sport in both the UK and Ireland, if it were true.



I would be amazed if the owners of the AP clubs could be brought round to this way of thinking.  Too much for them to lose, also I suspect too much for certain individuals in the RFU to lose.

This has been the problem, affecting every fact of the English game - it's not whether it's good for the rugby, it's whether it's good for the blazers.


----------



## mattie (Oct 10, 2011)

1927 said:


> It wont matter what type of league structure is in place if the teams competing are full of overseas players. i seem to remember a couple of seasons ago in the Zurich there were only 2 english qualified scrum halves playing.



Kolpak and European laws make addressing this very, very difficult.  Tactically, it's also better to have SH players as they generally forego international call-ups.

Bath have a saffa and a Scottish 9, Kyle Walker might go there but not for a while.  Pretty much all others are English though, including the whole first-choice 10-15 line (assuming Barkley is in for Carrero when fit).


----------



## flypanam (Oct 10, 2011)

mattie said:


> I would be amazed if the owners of the AP clubs could be brought round to this way of thinking. Too much for them to lose, also I suspect too much for certain individuals in the RFU to lose.
> 
> This has been the problem, affecting every fact of the English game - it's not whether it's good for the rugby, it's whether it's good for the blazers.



Exactly right, in a nutshell there's too much commerical and self interest involved in the AV.



mattie said:


> In what way is the AP not good?
> 
> Too many teams (too much distillation of quality, too many whipping boys), too many games, threat of relegation driving conservatism, balls-up of elite player programme implementation?



Yes, unlike the Magners/Pro12 allowed two italian clubs to enter and beacuse of no relegation they are being allowed to develop. Would that happen in the AV?

Bendy there is no way that would happen unless the WRU was behind it. Are they? To expose teams to other types of play is the role of the HC is it not?


----------



## editor (Oct 10, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Historically, on the part of the Welsh, it's because rugby here is a working class sport forged in the bellows of the steelworks and the mines. International rugby was the only chance we got to smash the bosses up, both literally and metaphorically, on the pitch. Rugby here was always very much married to class war, and rugby in England is played by the upper middle class.


Absolutely spot on.


----------



## mattie (Oct 10, 2011)

Just as a quick response to the relegation issue - the problem has generally been we had 13 teams who would logically make a premiership, and so the relegation/promotion has simply meant that the unlucky 13th would have a season on low income and would lose half a squad.

(This is prior to Exeter getting good money sunk into them to create a very tidy infrastructure)

There has been talk of ringfencing.  I would think this sensible, to avoid the current 2-tier table we have.  The likes of Newcastle could try to build a fanbase and commercial foundation without needing to mortgage themselves getting high-earners in to avoid relegation.  The only problem is, who to freeze out?


----------



## editor (Oct 10, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Sorry if I'm being dim, but I don't recall too much bile at any point over the history of the rugby threads.


Me neither. It's almost all been banter, with the odd hint of gloating (where applicable)  thrown in.


----------



## mattie (Oct 10, 2011)

editor said:


> Absolutely spot on.



This would make sense in the mid 1900s, not so much now.


----------



## mattie (Oct 10, 2011)

editor said:


> Me neither. It's almost all been banter, with the odd hint of gloating (where applicable) thrown in.



I'd rather not namecheck, but I can PM you the name of the rather distasteful one.  To try to be fair, not that I'm sure it's deserved, he demonstrated some pretty unsavoury views on other sports threads so there's a touch of crossover.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 10, 2011)

mattie said:


> Check 2009 and 2010 threads. It's mostly one in particular, who has some history for bigotry, but the problem is the crescendo builds. I also think it moves us closer to being plastic Chelsea (sorry kabbes) where people jump in to exercise some other agenda or simply to be objectionable.



Well, I checked out the 2009 6N thread and a bit of the 2010 general rugby thread. It made me feel rather nostalgic for some brilliant-but-now-departed posters (Mr Retro, Mr Nice, RF (though he does sometimes pop in), DaRealSpoon, Torquemad, Infidel Castro, etc, etc.)

Interestingly, the same themes have always been coming through. Media plays a major role in exciting the ire of the Celts (in the 2009 thread, it was about a farcically one-eyed bit of post match punditry after the Wales-England game that absolutely deserved to get called) > certain Celts' chippiness boils over into something approaching naked, anti-English hostility > English get defensive > other celts step in to smooth things over > things simmer down.

I wouldn't go as far to call it a 'crescendo', more a trumpet solo

You and DaRealSpoon feature heavily in terms of trying to distance yourself from the media stuff, which in this instance had bordered on the farcical (I must also retrospectively laud my own role as reasoned peacemaker ). But my point remains - the thing that caused it to bubble up was one-eyed wankery on the box that is then easily attributable by certain individuals to lazy notions of 'Englishness'. The media should know/do better, or the situation - and hostility - will perpetuate.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 10, 2011)

mattie said:


> I'd rather not namecheck, but I can PM you the name of the rather distasteful one. To try to be fair, not that I'm sure it's deserved, he demonstrated some pretty unsavoury views on other sports threads so there's a touch of crossover.



It doesn't take a genius to work out which of our more, ahem, anti-English bretheren you are referring to


----------



## bendeus (Oct 10, 2011)

mattie said:


> Just as a quick response to the relegation issue - the problem has generally been we had 13 teams who would logically make a premiership, and so the relegation/promotion has simply meant that the unlucky 13th would have a season on low income and would lose half a squad.
> 
> (This is prior to Exeter getting good money sunk into them to create a very tidy infrastructure)
> 
> There has been talk of ringfencing. I would think this sensible, to avoid the current 2-tier table we have. The likes of Newcastle could try to build a fanbase and commercial foundation without needing to mortgage themselves getting high-earners in to avoid relegation. The only problem is, who to freeze out?



I think that the possible root and branch reform that could see an Anglo-Welsh/British league is also based on regionalisation in England.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 10, 2011)

mattie said:


> This would make sense in the mid 1900s, not so much now.



Sure. But context is everything, and the perceived attitude of how we are treated in the media is, I would imagine, very close to the percieved attitude of how we were treated by the bosses - it's an extension of a very reasoned anger into a more abstract chip.


----------



## mattie (Oct 10, 2011)

Again, the media (the commercial media, at least) are beholden only to advertiser revenue, if this is seen as a reason to attribute certain behaviours to a group of people - and then berate people because of this assumed behaviour - then we're in all sorts of bother.  I don't assume all Americans are the embodiment of fox news.  It's not exactly hard to see the difference.

England don't play well and we get a certain bigot (I think you know who I mean) rearing his most unwanted head, using it as a crutch for anything nasty they can think to say.  It's not banter, not only because it's not witty or insightful.  Banter is between people who generally respect the others.  I can't stand bigots.  I hope I'm not alone in that.

On the TV front, it's quite sad, the AP highlights on ITV are actually quite good, although they seem to be doing more talk and less action this season.


----------



## mattie (Oct 10, 2011)

bendeus said:


> I think that the possible root and branch reform that could see an Anglo-Welsh/British league is also based on regionalisation in England.



I'd be interested to see how it works.  Bath grouped with Gloucester and (maybe, if they survive long enough) Bristol.  There'd be riots.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 10, 2011)

mattie said:


> I'd be interested to see how it works. Bath grouped with Gloucester and (maybe, if they survive long enough) Bristol. There'd be riots.



Exactly why Os and Scarlets are still separate entities. They'd have been taking pot shots at each other across the Loughor.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 10, 2011)

flypanam said:


> Bendy there is no way that would happen unless the WRU was behind it. Are they? To expose teams to other types of play is the role of the HC is it not?



Only just noticed this. Hmmm. I think that the WRU are hellbent on central contracts, which requires subjagating the regions, TBH. I'm not sure where their stance would lie, because a British league would mean more powerful regions.

It would also mean bigger gates, TV revenue and crowds and therefore more money coming into the game. The ML/Rabo12 league is not working for Wales in the same way as it is for you guys. Gates are woeful and the regions have not really been taken to the hearts of fans. If, however, we were regularly playing English opposition in a meaningful competition, people would come back to the game and rediscover old/find new loyalties. It could be the difference between the blossoming or atrophy of the club game in Wales, and for all that they want the regions to be weak and dependant, even the WRU can't be stupid enough to want them to fold altogether.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 10, 2011)

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard-sport/rugby/article-23996403-either-by-choice-or-default-we-should-all-be-welshmen-now.do


----------



## flypanam (Oct 10, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Only just noticed this. Hmmm. I think that the WRU are hellbent on central contracts, which requires subjagating the regions, TBH. I'm not sure where their stance would lie, because a British league would mean more powerful regions.
> 
> It would also mean bigger gates, TV revenue and crowds and therefore more money coming into the game. The ML/Rabo12 league is not working for Wales in the same way as it is for you guys. Gates are woeful and the regions have not really been taken to the hearts of fans. If, however, we were regularly playing English opposition in a meaningful competition, people would come back to the game and rediscover old/find new loyalties. It could be the difference between the blossoming or atrophy of the club game in Wales, and for all that they want the regions to be weak and dependant, even the WRU can't be stupid enough to want them to fold altogether.



I never took an interest but the old Anglo Welsh cup, did that attract alot of fans to the games? One of the reason ML/Rabo 12 is popular in Ireland is that games are timed to a particular provinces history, for instance we always play Friday nights. Munster on Saturday afternoons etc, the big plus is the prices are quite low, with plenty of under 13's getting in free etc. Munster this year have slashed the prices of tickets.  Added to that we have nearly a 100 years of provincial rugby in Ireland.

I've said it somewhere on these boards before but I don't think regions work for you, and a British League while benefiting in the short term with More Money from Sky will eventually do more harm than good to Welsh rugby, imo.

Which would be a bad thing for us as well.


----------



## mattie (Oct 10, 2011)

bendeus said:


> http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard-sport/rugby/article-23996403-either-by-choice-or-default-we-should-all-be-welshmen-now.do



Never in a million years.

Unless you make the final.  Then maybe.  Perhaps.  But probably still not.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 10, 2011)

We should probably switch this to the normal RU thread, tbh, but yeah, the EDF was pretty popular in Wales, precisely because there's a long history of cross-border rivalry between ourselves and the English. Rivalries such as Bath-Cardiff are pretty old, IIRC.

As an illustration, a recent LV cup game between Ospreys and Leicester (you know, the youth/development competition) attracted over 6000 fans, only 1000 short of the Rabodirect clash that happened soon afterwards between the Os and European Champions, Leinster.

I think that the surviving regions should return to standalone status rather than the plastic entities we find now. Newport, Cardiff, Swansea and Llanelli would be just fine, and would bring old fans back.

It's not so much the money from Sky, Flypanam, it's the fact that Wales, collectively, has bought in to neither region nor ML. Nobody cares about it as a competition. Standalone, traditional clubs playing against English (and Irish) opposition (as well as each other - those old rivalries are immense) would be a big shot in the arm for rugby in Wales, IMO, and would get fairweather fans like me off their arses and down to the stadia to watch; something I haven't done for a while.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 10, 2011)

mattie said:


> Never in a million years.
> 
> Unless you make the final. Then maybe. Perhaps. But probably still not.



Can't say I blame you. We're fucking insufferable


----------



## mattie (Oct 10, 2011)

flypanam said:


> I never took an interest but the old Anglo Welsh cup, did that attract alot of fans to the games? One of the reason ML/Rabo 12 is popular in Ireland is that games are timed to a particular provinces history, for instance we always play Friday nights. Munster on Saturday afternoons etc, the big plus is the prices are quite low, with plenty of under 13's getting in free etc. Munster this year have slashed the prices of tickets. Added to that we have nearly a 100 years of provincial rugby in Ireland.
> 
> I've said it somewhere on these boards before but I don't think regions work for you, and a British League while benefiting in the short term with More Money from Sky will eventually do more harm than good to Welsh rugby, imo.
> 
> Which would be a bad thing for us as well.



The problem with the anglo-welsh is that it took place at the same time as the other, more established competitions and therefore generally had second teams or kids playing.

You're exactly right that competitions must hit the right notes with fans, the AW just felt an afterthought.  Partly because they kept tinkering with the arrangements - if I remember correctly, it had a '6N' approach in that teams would only play certain teams home or away, which led to lopsided draws in a pool with (I think) 4 teams - and partly because the better temas knew would qualify for the HC through native league or HC itself, which meant only the smaller temas would take it seriosuly as a route into Europe.

Some good games though, I recall the 2009 final where Cardiff were superb against Gloucester.


----------



## mattie (Oct 10, 2011)

bendeus said:


> We should probably switch this to the normal RU thread, tbh, but yeah, the EDF was pretty popular in Wales, precisely because there's a long history of cross-border rivalry between ourselves and the English. Rivalries such as Bath-Cardiff are pretty old, IIRC.
> 
> As an illustration, a recent LV cup game between Ospreys and Leicester (you know, the youth/development competition) attracted over 6000 fans, only 1000 short of the Rabodirect clash that happened soon afterwards between the Os and European Champions, Leinster.
> 
> ...



There was a good game at the Rec against Cardiff, but it was most definitely second-string.

It fucking pissed it down as well, and muggins here wore a wooly coat.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 10, 2011)

mattie said:


> The problem with the anglo-welsh is that it took place at the same time as the other, more established competitions and therefore generally had second teams or kids playing.



Absolutely the case until the knockout stages, yes.



> You're exactly right that competitions must hit the right notes with fans, the AW just felt an afterthought. Partly because they kept tinkering with the arrangements - if I remember correctly, it had a '6N' approach in that teams would only play certain teams home or away,



Yeah. It was a cobbled together in a Frankenstein's monster kind of way. Teams would always be advantaged/disadvantaged by having either two or three away pool games.



> the better temas knew would qualify for the HC through native league or HC itself, which meant only the smaller temas would take it seriosuly as a route into Europe.



Yes. Welsh teams were only interested because it allowed them to pit themselves against the much-vaunted GP. So were fans.



> Some good games though, I recall the 2009 final where Cardiff were superb against Gloucester.



Some crackers. Scarlets and Os (twice) against Leicester in the final were great games.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 10, 2011)

mattie said:


> There was a good game at the Rec against Cardiff, but it was most definitely second-string.
> 
> It fucking pissed it down as well, and muggins here wore a wooly coat.



I think I recall you posting about it. I saw the return leg in Cardiff, and Bath were scintillating, to be fair. Massively competitive. First time I saw Hape in the flesh - he was awesome. What the fuck happened to him?

E2A: Can't have been the return leg - must have been another year.


----------



## mattie (Oct 10, 2011)

bendeus said:


> I think I recall you posting about it. I saw the return leg in Cardiff, and Bath were scintillating, to be fair. Massively competitive. First time I saw Hape in the flesh - he was awesome. What the fuck happened to him?
> 
> E2A: Can't have been the return leg - must have been another year.



I would love to know what went wrong with Hape.  His step got a bit predictable, but excellent on crash and great hands, plus a solid defence.  I think he suffered through the collective drop of rugby quality at England and Bath, where the ball was stodgy and he got the ball at a standstill, but he's still got the skills.

In terms of the game, it may have been a later-stage one or perhaps even HC in Cardiff.  Bath didn't have the squad size to try to compete everywhere, so sadly the AW was the one that got less focus.   I can assure you, the young lads they put into the AW teams took it seriously though, both young backrows gave it a real shot and it was a decent game.  The only problem was the message it sent to fans, they saw the incumbents getting a rest and many didn't make the effort.  I think the Cardiff game at the Rec had tickets for sale at the gate- from memory, a Friday night as well.


----------



## mattie (Oct 10, 2011)

I realise we're off-piste a bit, but Bath have got Leinster in the HC this year.  I cannot wait.


----------



## mattie (Oct 10, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Yes. Welsh teams were only interested because it allowed them to pit themselves against the much-vaunted GP. So were fans.



I think fans this side of the channel didn't really recognise the new regions.  Pontypridd, Llanelli, Ebbw Vale etc are names with huge history.  Swansea Neath Ospreys, less so.  Celtic Warriors would have been even worse.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Oct 10, 2011)

han said:


> I don't get all this rejoicing over England's failure. I know we didn't deserve to stay in, but why the gloating? You don't get it with any other nation. I wouldn't dream of saying 'hurrah, the Irish are out' - I just congratulated Wales on their win.
> 
> And people use the excuse of history, England being Imperialistic in the past, etc, which is a bit pathetic. It usually comes from people who actually LIVE here as well, and love living here, which I think is ironic.


What other people have said about history but tbh they are a unlikeable lot as people as well - don't know if you caught the bit where they sexually harassed a maid in their hotel room, not to mention the fact that the team has loads of mercenaries who haven't even been born in england.


----------



## Grandma Death (Oct 10, 2011)

elfman said:


> Also, concerning all the off-the-field-antics in the tournament. Really who gives a fuck about any of that? If you read biographies of rugby players you'll find loads of this sort of thing happens all the time with rugby players but never got reported because they weren't under the media spotlight as much then. If you're interested in rugby, talk about rugby, if you want to talk about the antics of famous people, make another thread because it doesn't belong here imo.



Bad off the pitch behaviour during a high profile tourny of the sorts exhibited by england show a lack of assertive management. On a personal level the way they handled the sexual harrassment case was disgraceful. Dont think for one minute Im interested in off pitch antics of players cause Im not. England however seem to have stood out in this tourny for some particular cuntish behaviour.


----------



## Grandma Death (Oct 10, 2011)

mattie said:


> I think problems at RFU go higher than Jonno.
> 
> At the playing level, I also think he needs to decide whether attitude or ability defines his squad selection. He's happy to discard players who dare to question him, maybe he should consider discarding players who don't seem to take their responsibilities seriously?
> 
> ...



Its not just Tuilagi....it looks like Moody is going to get fined too-cause he's done the same after the tuilagi fine. Now that displays either disregard for the rules or he didnt even realise he was wearing it-either way it doesnt look good.


----------



## mattie (Oct 10, 2011)

Grandma Death said:


> Its not just Tuilagi....it looks like Moody is going to get fined too-cause he's done the same after the tuilagi fine. Now that displays either disregard for the rules or he didnt even realise he was wearing it-either way it doesnt look good.



Either way, it's of total non-interest - it's not a rule, it's a commercial condition. Hence the financial punishment.  Much like the numbers peeling - that's a problem for Nike and the local firm used to attach them.

Rumours abound, btw, of Lewis Moody having some dust-up in Marbella prior to the WC. That is actually of import.


----------



## mattie (Oct 10, 2011)

Grandma Death said:


> Bad off the pitch behaviour during a high profile tourny of the sorts exhibited by england show a lack of assertive management. On a personal level the way they handled the sexual harrassment case was disgraceful. Dont think for one minute Im interested in off pitch antics of players cause Im not. England however seem to have stood out in this tourny for some particular cuntish behaviour.



Like - going out on the piss?  Or is this another reference to 'sexual harassment'?  We might as well call Manu's misguided front crawl as a terrorist incident in Auckland harbour, seeing as we're going for the hyperbole.


----------



## kabbes (Oct 10, 2011)

Sexual harassment or not (and in my view, it certainly was), it was most definitely the most appalling bullying.  It reflects incredibly badly on those involved -- up there with the worst excesses of footballers.


----------



## mattie (Oct 10, 2011)

kabbes said:


> Sexual harassment or not (and in my view, it certainly was), it was most definitely the most appalling bullying. It reflects incredibly badly on those involved -- up there with the worst excesses of footballers.



Can you repeat to me what you know of the incident?

I've long since given up on the affibility of sportsman, especially rugby players. Jerry Guscott and Stuart Barnes were complete twats when I met them, which was absolutely gutting. And meeting the Bath team on Christmas beanos is utterly terrifying - anything and anyone is fair game, so being a student was not ideal.

The honourable exception to this was the unfairly nicknamed 'MAd dog' Joe Maddock. Never met a more humble, affable chap.


----------



## kabbes (Oct 10, 2011)

Well there were a few news stories about it

This is a pretty reasonable summary


----------



## kabbes (Oct 10, 2011)

From the above link:


> Annabel Newton said she was left in tears after the trio stole her work walkie-talkie and took it to a room - then made crude sexual comments and videoed her when she was forced to retrieve it.
> A subsequent apology forced out of the players was insincere, she said, and she ended up being taken off work duties involving the England team.
> 
> Newton said she was working at the England team’s hotel in Dunedin early last month and was specially assigned to attend to the players’ needs. She said team members had already joked about stealing her walkie-talkie when it disappeared from the top of the catering trolley she was wheeling.
> ...



If nothing else, that is most certainly textbook bullying. Get somebody with much less power than you -- both physically and professionally -- and make them feel small, powerless and frightened.

And that doesn't even mention the part about them being dressed just in towels and talking about an "Aussie kiss".


----------



## treefrog (Oct 10, 2011)

Goodbye Mils 

Is it wrong of me to be a bit relieved that Colin Slade's out of the tournament? After his woeful performances in the pre-RWC tests and in the pool games he played I'm quite chuffed to see Cruden stepping up to the plate. He was tremendous on Sunday. I'm a bit worried about our game against the Aussies this weekend to tell the truth, the team that stepped out on Sunday was not the same team that got rightfully smashed by the Irish and with the exception of Quade they looked bloody dangerous. And Quade, well, he can go from dreadful to genius based solely on the number of Coco-Pops there were in his breakfast.


----------



## mattie (Oct 10, 2011)

That sounds like schoolboy idiocy. Stealing a walkie talkie and saying rude words down it? Joking about what an 'Aussie kiss' is? This meets a definition of sexual harassment?

Calling it schoolboy, given their collective IQs, is being generous.

Dickish, yes. Boorish, yes. Sexual harassment?   _Really_?


----------



## mattie (Oct 10, 2011)

treefrog said:


> Goodbye Mils
> 
> Is it wrong of me to be a bit relieved that Colin Slade's out of the tournament? After his woeful performances in the pre-RWC tests and in the pool games he played I'm quite chuffed to see Cruden stepping up to the plate. He was tremendous on Sunday. I'm a bit worried about our game against the Aussies this weekend to tell the truth, the team that stepped out on Sunday was not the same team that got rightfully smashed by the Irish and with the exception of Quade they looked bloody dangerous. And Quade, well, he can go from dreadful to genius based solely on the number of Coco-Pops there were in his breakfast.



Sad for Mils, seems awfully young but I think it's for a career elsewhere.

Is Donald on the bench, I assume?  Delays his arrival at Bath by  few weeks, much to my chagrin.


----------



## kabbes (Oct 10, 2011)

mattie said:


> That sounds like schoolboy idiocy. Stealing a walkie talkie and saying rude words down it? Joking about what an 'Aussie kiss' is? This meets a definition of sexual harassment?
> 
> Calling it schoolboy, given their collective IQs, is being generous.
> 
> Dickish, yes. Boorish, yes. Sexual harassment? _Really_?


What do you think sexual harassment actually is?

If sexual harassment doesn't include men in powerful positions making suggestive comments to female employees that are worried for their own safety then what actually _does_ it include?


----------



## treefrog (Oct 10, 2011)

mattie said:


> Sad for Mils, seems awfully young but I think it's for a career elsewhere.
> 
> Is Donald on the bench, I assume? Delays his arrival at Bath by few weeks, much to my chagrin.



From what I can gather, yeah. I got to these fair shores too recently to know why, but the natives are somewhat chagined by his arrival.


----------



## mattie (Oct 10, 2011)

kabbes said:


> What do you think sexual harassment actually is?
> 
> If sexual harassment doesn't include men in powerful positions making suggestive comments to employees that are worried for their own safety then what actually _does_ it include?



An intent for the encounter to be sexual in nature?  FFS, she's an aussie, hence Gunshow's neanderthal comment about an aussie kiss.  It wasn't a suggestion.

They were boorish.  As rugby players in group settings sadly tend to be.


----------



## mattie (Oct 10, 2011)

treefrog said:


> From what I can gather, yeah. I got to these fair shores too recently to know why, but the natives are somewhat chagined by his arrival.



He had a bit of a mare in a few games, and was unfairly compared and contrasted to Dan Carter.  Seeing as Carter has years of experience at international level and knows the team inside-out, anyone following up was always going to be slated.

I gather he's quite good though, if not the stellar legend that is Carter.


----------



## starfish (Oct 10, 2011)

mattie said:


> Sad for Mils, seems awfully young but I think it's for a career elsewhere.
> 
> Is Donald on the bench, I assume? Delays his arrival at Bath by few weeks, much to my chagrin.



At least he made it to 100 caps first.


----------



## mattie (Oct 10, 2011)

starfish said:


> At least he made it to 100 caps first.



Aye.  Great player, well deserved.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Oct 10, 2011)

treefrog said:


> Goodbye Mils


Only 31 too, sad to see such a talented player go.


----------



## kabbes (Oct 10, 2011)

mattie said:


> An intent for the encounter to be sexual in nature? FFS, she's an aussie, hence Gunshow's neanderthal comment about an aussie kiss. It wasn't a suggestion.
> 
> They were boorish. As rugby players in group settings sadly tend to be.


Boorishness in the wrong circumstances becomes sexual harassment.

And no, it doesn't matter what _they_ intended.  It matters how it comes across to the one being bullied.  Forcing her to come into a room of three large men dressed in nothing but towels, who then tell her that she should give them a "blow job down under" (their words) can easily be construed as a scary and sexually harassing situation.

But like I said before, either way it is unforgivable behaviour.  Bunch of right fucking pricks, they are.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Oct 10, 2011)

mattie said:


> An intent for the encounter to be sexual in nature? FFS, she's an aussie, hence Gunshow's neanderthal comment about an aussie kiss. It wasn't a suggestion.


You're digging a hole here mattie....


----------



## mattie (Oct 10, 2011)

sleaterkinney said:


> Only 31 too, sad to see such a talented player go.



Sad that both Carter and Mils forego the knock-out stages of the WC in their home country.  That would be a fitting finale.  Well, hopefully not for Carter, iyswim.


----------



## mattie (Oct 10, 2011)

kabbes said:


> Boorishness in the wrong circumstances becomes sexual harassment.
> 
> And no, it doesn't matter what _they_ intended. It matters how it comes across to the one being bullied. Forcing her to come into a room of three large men dressed in nothing but towels, who then tell her that she should give them a "blow job down under" (their words) can easily be construed as a scary and sexually harassing situation.
> 
> But like I said before, either way it is unforgivable behaviour. Bunch of right fucking pricks, they are.



Pricks indeed.  But I'm baffled by how easily we throw terms around.


----------



## treefrog (Oct 10, 2011)

sleaterkinney said:


> Only 31 too, sad to see such a talented player go.


I don't think the meedja speculation here about whether he was being selected for sentimental reasons over ability will have helped any. FFS, NZ sports journos are a nasty breed.


----------



## Belushi (Oct 10, 2011)

mattie said:


> That sounds like schoolboy idiocy. Stealing a walkie talkie and saying rude words down it? Joking about what an 'Aussie kiss' is? This meets a definition of sexual harassment?
> 
> Calling it schoolboy, given their collective IQs, is being generous.
> 
> Dickish, yes. Boorish, yes. Sexual harassment? _Really_?



Yes. *Really*.


----------



## mattie (Oct 10, 2011)

sleaterkinney said:


> You're digging a hole here mattie....



In what way?  Twattish rude words down a walkie talkie, followed by her having to go into their room to get them to stop playing stupid pranks?

Joking about a term for blowjob.  That's about the only sexual reference I can make.  And, apparently, that counts as sexual harassment.


----------



## kabbes (Oct 10, 2011)

"Easily"?  Like I said, if this isn't sexual harassment then I don't know what other actions you would expect.  Would it take somebody to actually flash her?  Do they have to actually physically attack her?

Look it up.  Sexual harassment is "intimidation, bullying or coercion of a sexual nature".  This was intimidation and bullying and it was of a sexual nature.  So it was sexual harassment.


----------



## mattie (Oct 10, 2011)

kabbes said:


> "Easily"? Like I said, if this isn't sexual harassment then I don't know what other actions you would expect. Would it take somebody to actually flash her? Do they have to actually physically attack her?
> 
> Look it up. Sexual harassment is "intimidation, bullying or coercion of a sexual nature". This was intimidation and bullying and it was of a sexual nature. So it was sexual harassment.



Coercion to do what? That's pretty much central.

Was she bullied because she was a woman?  I think she was bullied because Haskell et al are twats.


----------



## Belushi (Oct 10, 2011)

mattie said:


> In what way? Twattish rude words down a walkie talkie, followed by her having to go into their room to get them to stop playing stupid pranks?
> 
> Joking about a term for blowjob. That's about the only sexual reference I can make. And, apparently, that counts as sexual harassment.



Yes. Try it at work. Get together with a couple of big mates and then corner some poor girl and the make leering jokes about blowjobs. See how long your claim for unfair dismissal would last at a tribunal.


----------



## kabbes (Oct 10, 2011)

Here is the UN's take on what constitutes sexual harassment.

Pay particular attention to these, amongst many other things on the list that they fall foul of:



> Unwanted sexual looks or gestures.
> Referring to an adult as a girl, hunk, doll, babe, or honey.
> · Sexual comments.
> · Turning work discussions to sexual topics.
> · Sexual innuendos or stories.


----------



## kabbes (Oct 10, 2011)

mattie said:


> Coercion to do what? That's pretty much central.
> 
> Was she bullied because she was a woman? I think she was bullied because Haskell et al are twats.


The bullying took a very overtly sexual theme.  This constitutes sexual harassment.

And yes, they chose a sexual theme because she was a woman.  Not that this is relevant to it being sexual harassment.


----------



## Belushi (Oct 10, 2011)

mattie said:


> Coercion to do what? That's pretty much central.
> 
> Was she bullied because she was a woman? I think she was bullied because Haskell et al are twats.



WTF? Its not sexual harrasment because they're twats?


----------



## mattie (Oct 10, 2011)

There's some difference between inappropriate behaviour and sexual harassment.  I'd expect a sacking if I did any of the above, to man or woman.


----------



## kabbes (Oct 10, 2011)

FWIW, in any other job, they would have at the very least been under a disciplinary for those actions and there is every chance that they would have been sacked.

Now personally, I wouldn't treat professional sport any differently to any other job.  If I were, through some idiotic miracle, given charge of the England team then those lot would never play for me again, no matter how good they were.

Sport is just sport.  The fact that we somehow seem to have given it a status beyond that is one reason why it's so fucked up today.


----------



## Belushi (Oct 10, 2011)

mattie said:


> There's some difference between inappropriate behaviour and sexual harassment. I'd expect a sacking if I did any of the above, to man or woman.



Yes you'd be sacked for sexual harassment.


----------



## mattie (Oct 10, 2011)

Belushi said:


> WTF? Its not sexual harrasment because they're twats?



No, it's not sexual harassment because it's not sexual. They carried out a schoolboy-level prank of stealing a walkie talkie and saying rude words.

They were then arses about giving it back.  And one reference was made to a sexaul act, as a weak play on her nationality.

We are setting the bar rather low for sexual harassment.


----------



## mattie (Oct 10, 2011)

kabbes said:


> FWIW, in any other job, they would have at the very least been under a disciplinary for those actions and there is every chance that they would have been sacked.
> 
> Now personally, I wouldn't treat professional sport any differently to any other job. If I were, through some idiotic miracle, given charge of the England team then those lot would never play for me again, no matter how good they were.
> 
> Sport is just sport. The fact that we somehow seem to have given it a status beyond that is one reason why it's so fucked up today.



I agree.

But a weak joke about a blow job is not sexual harassment.


----------



## kabbes (Oct 10, 2011)

A small woman entering a room of three giant men dressed in nothing but towels, who then talk about blow jobs, is not sexual?

I bet it felt fucking sexual to her.


----------



## Belushi (Oct 10, 2011)

mattie said:


> I agree.
> 
> But a weak joke about a blow job is not sexual harassment.



Yes it is.


----------



## mattie (Oct 10, 2011)

One person makes one weak joke about blow jobs, and that's jury verdict returned.

I've no doubt she was intimidated and humiliated.  But sexually harassed by one person making one joke which was a play on her nationality?


----------



## Belushi (Oct 10, 2011)

mattie said:


> One person makes one weak joke about blow jobs, and that's jury verdict returned.
> 
> I've no doubt she was intimidated and humiliated. But sexually harassed by one person making one joke which was a play on her nationality?



Yes, thats what sexual harassment is - humiliating and bullying a person with sexual overtones. What on earth do you think it meant?


----------



## bendeus (Oct 10, 2011)

Can their behaviour on the pitch for 80 minutes against France be defined as rugby? That's what I want to know.


----------



## mattie (Oct 10, 2011)

Belushi said:


> Yes, thats what sexual harassment is - humiliating and bullying a person with sexual overtones. What on earth do you think it meant?



Some form of sexual advance or a sexual comment specific to her as a woman, not just a play on her nationality?


----------



## mattie (Oct 10, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Can their behaviour on the pitch for 80 minutes against France be defined as rugby? That's what I want to know.



If there was any sexual harassment, it was of Matt Stevens in the scrum.


----------



## kabbes (Oct 10, 2011)

mattie said:


> Some form of sexual advance or a sexual comment specific to her as a woman, not just a play on her nationality?


It's not "just a play on her nationality".  They used the words "blow job".  They _clarified_ that they meant blow job.  Whilst three of them, all well over 6 foot and 15 stone, stood around her in towels.

I don't care how much they thought they were just make a weak joke.  To her, it must have been incredibly sexually intimidating.


----------



## Grandma Death (Oct 11, 2011)

Mattie stop being a Dick. Nobodys agreeing with you. You also seem to be forgetting the follow up incident with the flowers too. As i understand it she had no idea there were three people in the room as haskell stated he was on his own. She then entered a room to discover two other players there. That in itself would be disconcerting for a lot of women. But to then go on about blow jobs when you're in a room with three rugby players is gonna feel intimidating. It was upsetting enough to the point she broke down...but her feelings don't matter...all that matters is your hair splitting about what is and isn't classed as harassment.


----------



## 1927 (Oct 11, 2011)

What's the difference between the England rugby team and Mr T?

Mr T ain't getting on no plane fool!


----------



## 1927 (Oct 11, 2011)

Man walks into a fancy dress shop and asks for a Halloween costume. Girl behind counter gives him an England rugby shirt.

No, he says, I said I wanted to look like a count!


----------



## elfman (Oct 11, 2011)

The anti-English stuff is boring...


----------



## 1927 (Oct 11, 2011)

Evidently Martin Johnson requested that the second half of the game against France was played in a bar. He thought they'd have more chance of scoring.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 11, 2011)

elfman said:


> The anti-English stuff is boring...



It would be if there was any


----------



## mattie (Oct 11, 2011)

Grandma Death said:


> Mattie stop being a Dick. Nobodys agreeing with you. You also seem to be forgetting the follow up incident with the flowers too. As i understand it she had no idea there were three people in the room as haskell stated he was on his own. She then entered a room to discover two other players there. That in itself would be disconcerting for a lot of women. But to then go on about blow jobs when you're in a room with three rugby players is gonna feel intimidating. It was upsetting enough to the point she broke down...but her feelings don't matter...all that matters is your hair splitting about what is and isn't classed as harassment.



Disagreeing is now being a dick.  Grand.  I had no idea that urban was a mechanism for setting my opinion by group consensus.

There are certain connotations to sexual harassment, hence my desire not to use it where I think it's not fit for purpose.

I'm sure it was intimidating, and from her reaction completely humiliating as well, and as we're all in violent agreement, the three are perfect dicks for acting like that - not least because they seem oblivious to the impact their behaviour has on others.  Still don't see why one single reference to a sexual act, which was based on a play on her nationality, constitutes sexual harassment.


----------



## gabi (Oct 11, 2011)

An 'Aussie Kiss' is slang downunder for guy going down on a girl, not the other way round.. either way, classy behaviour from the lads


----------



## mattie (Oct 11, 2011)

gabi said:


> An 'Aussie Kiss' is slang downunder for guy going down on a girl, not the other way round.. either way, classy behaviour from the lads



Fuck's sake, Haskell can't even get that right.


----------



## kabbes (Oct 11, 2011)

He also said it was "a blowjob downunder" which doesn't syntactically work.  But that's by the by.  It was sexual and it was harassment, hence it is sexual harassment.

To be honest, this kind of confusion is why generations of men have sexually harassed women without even realising what they are doing.  It's all very well if you're the one being the bully, to say that it isn't sexual.  But the only perspective that really matters here is that of the one being bullied.  Small, powerless (physically and in terms of position), outnumbered by nearly undressed men, in their space with no exit and having sexual references thrown at you -- I don't think you're really in a position at that point to be working out the technical accuracy of the sexual reference and how jokey it actually is.


----------



## mattie (Oct 11, 2011)

kabbes said:


> He also said it was "a blowjob downunder" which doesn't syntactically work. But that's by the by. It was sexual and it was harassment, hence it is sexual harassment.
> 
> To be honest, this kind of confusion is why generations of men have sexually harassed women without even realising what they are doing. It's all very well if you're the one being the bully, to say that it isn't sexual. But the only perspective that really matters here is that of the one being bullied. Small, powerless (physically and in terms of position), outnumbered by nearly undressed men, in their space with no exit and having sexual references thrown at you -- I don't think you're really in a position at that point to be working out the technical accuracy of the sexual reference and how jokey it actually is.



I don't think you are either, to be frank.  But don't let that stop you.


----------



## mattie (Oct 11, 2011)

I don't think any of us are going to shift, least of all your stubborn reporter, so I'll be leaving this.

But not before pointing out that Haskell has a Land Rover with personalised number plate he calls 'Snow White'.  Perhpas a drugs reference, or his predilection for underage princesses.  You decide.


----------



## kabbes (Oct 11, 2011)

Don't let that stop me what?  I haven't accused you of anything.  I've just been making the counterarguments to your points.


----------



## mattie (Oct 11, 2011)

kabbes said:


> Don't let that stop me what? I haven't accused you of anything. I've just been making the counterarguments to your points.



And I've been doing likewise, but you accuse me of speaking for the various persons involved, when you seem quite happy to do the same.


----------



## kabbes (Oct 11, 2011)

I haven't accused you of speaking for anybody involved


----------



## mattie (Oct 11, 2011)

You seem to be saying that I can't decide in what sense the 'joke' was delivered, but you can decide how it was received.


----------



## 1927 (Oct 11, 2011)

mattie said:


> You seem to be saying that I can't decide in what sense the 'joke' was delivered, but you can decide how it was received.


Its obvious that the joke was not received well, if it had been taken as lighthearted banter we would never have heard of the incident.


----------



## mattie (Oct 11, 2011)

All of which gets us nowhere.  I don't agree.  You think I'm wrong.  We've argued.  I still don't agree.


----------



## Belushi (Oct 11, 2011)

mattie said:


> All of which gets us nowhere. I don't agree. You think I'm wrong. We've argued. I still don't agree.



Then you're going to have to live with the fact that some of us think you're an apologist for some pretty disgusting sexual harassment of a young woman.


----------



## mattie (Oct 11, 2011)

1927 said:


> Its obvious that the joke was not received well, if it had been taken as lighthearted banter we would never have heard of the incident.



I don't dispute that.  I think the whole sorry encounter was not well-received, and should have been ended when her upset was obvious, but Gunshow seems oblivious to the fact he's an objectionable twat.  Either that or, even more unforgivably, he doesn't much care.


----------



## mattie (Oct 11, 2011)

Belushi said:


> Then you're going to have to live with the fact that some of us think you're an apologist for some pretty disgusting sexual harassment of a young woman.



Fuck off.

I'm not excusing or making apologies for any of it - not considering it sexual harassment does not mean I think their behaviour was anything other than reprehensible.  Get a grip.


----------



## kabbes (Oct 11, 2011)

mattie said:


> You seem to be saying that I can't decide in what sense the 'joke' was delivered, but you can decide how it was received.


No, you've parsed my sentence incorrectly, probably because it was a clumsy sentence.

I meant, "if you are a woman in this situation then you aren't in a position to be making that decision". So that's "you" in the general, not "you" as in specifically you.

Edit for clarity: this is the sentence in question, with clarifying insertions in brackets



> {Suppose you are...} Small, powerless (physically and in terms of position), outnumbered by nearly undressed men, in their space with no exit and having sexual references thrown at you -- I don't think you're {then} really in a position at that point to be working out the technical accuracy of the sexual reference and how jokey it actually is.


----------



## Belushi (Oct 11, 2011)

mattie said:


> Fuck off.
> 
> I'm not excusing or making apologies for any of it - not considering it sexual harassment does not mean I think their behaviour was anything other than reprehensible. Get a grip.



Yes you are. You should be ashamed of yourself.


----------



## mattie (Oct 11, 2011)

Belushi said:


> Yes you are. You should be ashamed of yourself.



Rubbish.


----------



## treefrog (Oct 11, 2011)

U75 in a nutshell, ladies and gents.


----------



## mattie (Oct 11, 2011)

The world at large in a nutshell.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 11, 2011)

U75's greatest ever rugby thread derail. I'm proud to have been an onlooker.

(FWIW, I think it was sexual harrassment as defined, but I don't think Mattie is an apologist by not agreeing it was, if that makes sense)

Anyway, France have selected an unchanged side to face Wales on Saturday. They are, however, sweating on the fitness of Harinordoquy and Yachvili. I would be very happy if they were out.

I fully expect the Welsh XXII to be unchanged, also.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 11, 2011)

bendeus said:


> (FWIW, I think it was sexual harrassment as defined, but I don't think Mattie is an apologist by not agreeing it was, if that makes sense)


Yep. Agree with this.


----------



## The Octagon (Oct 11, 2011)

One of the features on the BBC Sport website - *'Semi' biggest in Welsh history*

Snigger.


----------



## ddraig (Oct 11, 2011)

well done confirming yourself as an englesh dick mattie! 

anyone going to the millennium stadium for the game on sat then?
 i am bloody working, grrr


----------



## mattie (Oct 11, 2011)

ddraig said:


> well done confirming yourself as an englesh dick mattie!
> 
> anyone going to the millennium stadium for the game on sat then?
> i am bloody working, grrr



Looks like I've no need to namecheck.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 11, 2011)

The Octagon said:


> One of the features on the BBC Sport website - *'Semi' biggest in Welsh history*
> 
> Snigger.



Splendid!


----------



## ddraig (Oct 11, 2011)

mattie said:


> Looks like I've no need to namecheck.


what are you about now weirdo?


----------



## flypanam (Oct 11, 2011)

ddraig said:


> what are you about now weirdo?



Your post suggests that you are working at the MS on Saturday. Mattie I think is keen to go. If he mentions you will he get in for free?


----------



## ddraig (Oct 11, 2011)

flypanam said:


> Your post suggests that you are working at the MS on Saturday. Mattie I think is keen to go. If he mentions you will he get in for free?


i am not working there, just know they are opening for the game
and it is already free
he won't be able to namecheck me as 'ddraig' won't cut it and i wouldn't give him my real name unless meeting up, which i doubt would happen


----------



## ddraig (Oct 11, 2011)

apparently you do have to have a ticket tho, just heard! 15000 gone from ticketmaster already but you can get them from the ground


> The website tickets have now been snapped up but they are still available at the stadium between 10:00 and 19:00 BST.


 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-15255016


----------



## gabi (Oct 11, 2011)

ddraig said:


> apparently you do have to have a ticket tho, just heard! 15000 gone from ticketmaster already but you can get them from the ground
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-15255016



that's insane. imagine if they make the final


----------



## 1927 (Oct 11, 2011)

gabi said:


> that's insane. imagine if they make the final



If we do the WRU will see it as an opportunity to make money and charge!


----------



## bendeus (Oct 11, 2011)

1927 said:


> If we do the WRU will see it as an opportunity to make money and charge!



Never ones to miss an opportunity, they have already minted the WRU-branded 'Believe' T-Shirt, available from the WRU shop.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 11, 2011)

Priestland still a doubt, BTW. Shoulder is failing to respond to treatment. Would be a big blow for us given how he's brought Roberts into the game (and how that has been the lynchpin of our resurgence in attack) and his excellent line kicking.

Still, most teams (NZ included) would kill to have Wellies and Hook as backup, so all's not so bad.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 11, 2011)

gabi said:


> that's insane. imagine if they make the final



If we make the final I fear they may have to shut the borders and declare a state of emergency.


----------



## 1927 (Oct 11, 2011)

bendeus said:


> If we make the final I fear they may have to shut the borders and declare a state of emergency.



I've already had to turn work away for saturday as I cant get any bugger to work!lol


----------



## 1927 (Oct 11, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Priestland still a doubt, BTW. Shoulder is failing to respond to treatment. Would be a big blow for us given how he's brought Roberts into the game (and how that has been the lynchpin of our resurgence in attack) and his excellent line kicking.
> 
> Still, most teams (NZ included) would kill to have Wellies and Hook as backup, so all's not so bad.



Hook in and Wellies on bench then.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 11, 2011)

1927 said:


> Hook in and Wellies on bench then.



Wellies in and Hook on the bench, surely?


----------



## 1927 (Oct 11, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Wellies in and Hook on the bench, surely?



Hook to start, Wellies gets 30mins if he's lucky!


----------



## Grandma Death (Oct 11, 2011)

mattie said:


> Disagreeing is now being a dick.  Grand.  I had no idea that urban was a mechanism for setting my opinion by group consensus.
> 
> There are certain connotations to sexual harassment, hence my desire not to use it where I think it's not fit for purpose.
> 
> I'm sure it was intimidating, and from her reaction completely humiliating as well, and as we're all in violent agreement, the three are perfect dicks for acting like that - not least because they seem oblivious to the impact their behaviour has on others.  Still don't see why one single reference to a sexual act, which was based on a play on her nationality, constitutes sexual harassment.



Yeah I get that. You're still being a Dick. I mentioned nobody agreeing to illustrate the fact that everybody apart from you seems to think it was sexual harassment. Nothing to do with beating you up with a consensus stick. Obviously you being on your own with this doesn't make a blind bit of difference to your myopism on this.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 11, 2011)

1927 said:
			
		

> Hook to start, Wellies gets 30mins if he's lucky!


No chance. Hook is a better sub than a starter. If you bench Wellies from the off, you only need to have Hook on the Bench to cover 10, 12, 13 and FB. If Hook starts, you will need a specialist centre, Wellies and a back three player.

With Hook on the Bench, Gatland has the luxury of being able to load it far more effectively.

I'd go for: Hook, Ryan, James, Burns, Lloyd Williams, Bradley, Mongo.

With Wellies benching, you'd have to have: Wellies, James, Burns, Lloyd Williams, Scott Williams, Byrne, Ryan/Bradley/Mongo

Less impact, less flexibility.


----------



## Grandma Death (Oct 11, 2011)

Priestland almost certainly out. As has already pointed out the back up is good enough.

Predictions then? I'm throwing my hat in and going for a twelve point victory for Wales.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 11, 2011)

Grandma Death said:


> Priestland almost certainly out. As has already pointed out the back up is good enough.
> 
> Predictions then? I'm throwing my hat in and going for a twelve point victory for Wales.



Link?


----------



## Grandma Death (Oct 11, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Link?



http://m.guardian.co.uk/ms/p/gnm/op...11/rugby-world-cup-priestland-wales&cat=sport

They use the words major doubt. Perhaps I've been colorful with my language but the article doesn't make it sound too pronising


----------



## treefrog (Oct 11, 2011)

I'm going to go with a Wales/NZ final. And whilst it might get my visa revoked it would be fucking MINT to see the Welsh take it to 'em.

France don't look like they stand a chance against the Taff Juggernaut and with Yachvilli not at 100% they're without their major playmaker. I get the feeling that they've played their world cup. The ABs haven't lost to the Wallabies at Eden Park since the dawn of time and with Weepu and Cruden bringing their A game I reckon they'll take it, though it won't be a walkover.

That said, given the fear les Bleus strike into the hearts of Kiwis a France/AB final would be fucking HILARIOUS, though not as satisfying as Wales making it in.


----------



## gabi (Oct 11, 2011)

Underestimate the frogs in the knockout rounds of a WC at your peril. theyre fucking mental at this point, who knows what side will turn up on the weekend 

NZ/France final. France to win it.


----------



## treefrog (Oct 11, 2011)

gabi said:


> Underestimate the frogs in the knockout rounds of a WC at your peril. theyre fucking mental at this point, who knows what side will turn up on the weekend
> 
> NZ/France final. France to win it.



 
I know they have the Gallic insanity on their side, but I reckon they've used up their Froggy mentalness for this tournament, much as I love 'em.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 12, 2011)

gabi said:


> Underestimate the frogs in the knockout rounds of a WC at your peril. theyre fucking mental at this point, who knows what side will turn up on the weekend



Well, Gabi. It's taken 39, painful pages. It's a bit hackneyed and a tad cliched, but by Jiminy, you've managed to craft a reasoned post! 



> NZ/France final. France to win it



Could well be. Every side thinks it is about to create legend. A NZ/Frog final would be proper bonkers in a lot of very interesting ways. If it weren't for the slight inconvenience of Wales' continued involvement, that would be the final I'd want to see - for poetry's sake!


----------



## bendeus (Oct 12, 2011)

treefrog said:


> I know they have the Gallic insanity on their side, but I reckon they've used up their Froggy mentalness for this tournament, much as I love 'em.



I'm not sure they have. They managed 20 minutes of decent rugby against the Saes - 20! And that would have been less decent if the English players hadn't waved their counterparts through for their tries.

They potentially have far more froggy fruitloopery to donate, and that's what scares me.


----------



## editor (Oct 12, 2011)

*too nervous to comment


----------



## bendeus (Oct 12, 2011)

editor said:


> *too nervous to comment



Uot eez ze problem, Monsieur?


----------



## treefrog (Oct 12, 2011)

Very true. Either way, I know what I'll be doing Saturday night...


----------



## Grandma Death (Oct 12, 2011)

This is the problem with Welsh supporters. It's nearly always doom and gloom. I feel nervous but this Welsh squad have no fear or baggage. I'm pretty much convinced we'll take em and by twelve points.


----------



## han (Oct 12, 2011)

editor said:


> *too nervous to comment



I'll be cheering for your country on Saturday morning!


----------



## gabi (Oct 12, 2011)

Grandma Death said:


> This is the problem with Welsh supporters. It's nearly always doom and gloom. I feel nervous but this Welsh squad have no fear or baggage. I'm pretty much convinced we'll take em and by twelve points.



You'll either win by 3 or lose by 30 if i know the french.


----------



## gabi (Oct 12, 2011)

from the guardian boards.. never anything truer ever said...



> Please God, not the Australians. How would it look if the William Webb Ellis Cup was won by a country where rugby is less popular than both lawnmower racing and kangaroo roping?



the ockers dont even know this tournament is going on i dont think


----------



## 1927 (Oct 12, 2011)

gabi said:


> You'll either win by 3 or lose by 30 if i know the french.



Normally I would agree with you, but there is not a team on this planet, and probably never has been, that could beat the current Welsh team by 30 points.


----------



## flypanam (Oct 12, 2011)

1927 said:


> Normally I would agree with you, but there is not a team on this planet, and probably never has been, that could beat the current Welsh team by 30 points.



Easy 

There's alot to admire about this Welsh team. Lack of hyperbole is one of them. I really do hope you win on Saturday an All Black v Wales final would be fitting.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 12, 2011)

flypanam said:


> Easy
> 
> There's alot to admire about this Welsh team. Lack of hyperbole is one of them. I really do hope you win on Saturday an All Black v Wales final would be fitting.



So would you agree that this Wales side is arguably the greatest XV that has ever taken to the pitch in the history of world rugby?


----------



## flypanam (Oct 12, 2011)

yeah!


----------



## bendeus (Oct 12, 2011)

flypanam said:


> yeah!


----------



## bendeus (Oct 13, 2011)

Just back from the pub with my best mate. We have concluded that we're definitely going to lose. Think we'll probably win the 'slam this year, though.


----------



## Grandma Death (Oct 13, 2011)

Priestland out hook starting.


----------



## 1927 (Oct 13, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Just back from the pub with my best mate. We have concluded that we're definitely going to lose. Think we'll probably win the 'slam this year, though.



I can see what you are trying to do here!


----------



## bendeus (Oct 13, 2011)

1927 said:


> I can see what you are trying to do here!



Looks like Gats agreed with your selection at 10, 1927


----------



## Pingu (Oct 13, 2011)

for those of you who want to learn a bit of welsh in order to cheer the boyos on

http://www.saysomethingin.com/mp3player/rygbi/rygbi.mp3


----------



## flypanam (Oct 13, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Just back from the pub with my best mate. We have concluded that we're definitely going to lose. Think we'll probably win the 'slam this year, though.



Is, like, yr best mate, French?


----------



## flypanam (Oct 13, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Uot eez ze problem, Monsieur?


 Is this him?


----------



## Pingu (Oct 13, 2011)

Is this his pet?


----------



## flypanam (Oct 13, 2011)

Just for the record I'm into bowls now. Apparently there's a six year old from Claregalway who's going to take it global. He's already got his own line of 1000 year old eggs in Taiwan.


----------



## mwgdrwg (Oct 13, 2011)

One thing's for certain, this Saturday morning will involve one hell of a lot of singing, screaming, jumping in the air, jeering, cheering, crying, and drinking!

Bring it on!


----------



## bendeus (Oct 13, 2011)

mwgdrwg said:


> One thing's for certain, this Saturday morning will involve one hell of a lot of Gallic shrugging, smoking Gauloises, eating cheese and impenetrable philosophical utterances relating to seabirds!
> 
> Allez



Fficsed


----------



## bendeus (Oct 13, 2011)

flypanam said:


> Is, like, yr best mate, French?



No. He's Neil Francis


----------



## bendeus (Oct 13, 2011)

flypanam said:


> Just for the record I'm into bowls now. Apparently there's a six year old from Claregalway who's going to take it global. He's already got his own line of 1000 year old eggs in Taiwan.



Bet he cheats


----------



## The Boy (Oct 13, 2011)

Assuming that a) The Welsh actually play well* and; b) the French actually play well*, then I have no problems with Wales winning.  I don't know why bu I don't.  I shout and swear and throw things at the telly and then, when the final whistle blows, I shrug and think 'oh well, was only Wales'.

And did I mention that I don't like the World Cup?  I'd happily lose on Saturday if it means we win the 6N next year


----------



## 1927 (Oct 13, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Bet he cheats



Atleast he wont be accused of slowing the game down!


----------



## flypanam (Oct 13, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Bet he cheats



Hurt did it? When he smashed you.

Your secrets out you were a world class Bowls playa.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 13, 2011)

The Boy said:


> Assuming that a) The Welsh actually play well* and; b) the French actually play well*, then I have no problems with Wales winning. I don't know why bu I don't. I shout and swear and throw things at the telly and then, when the final whistle blows, *I shrug* and think *'oh well, was only Whales'*.
> 
> And did I mention that I don't like the World Cup? I'd happily lose on Saturday if it means we win the 6N next year





> One thing's for certain, this Saturday morning will involve one hell of a lot of *Gallic shrugging*, smoking Gauloises, eating cheese and * impenetrable philosophical utterances relating to sea creatures!*





2 out of 4


----------



## bendeus (Oct 13, 2011)

flypanam said:


> Hurt did it? When he smashed you.
> 
> Your secrets out you were a world class Bowls playa.









"We talked about this before the game, ref!"


----------



## The Boy (Oct 13, 2011)

bendeus said:


> 2 out of 4




Edit:  Damn you!! I thought I committed a terrible spelling _faux pas._


----------



## flypanam (Oct 13, 2011)

Pingu said:


> for those of you who want to learn a bit of welsh in order to cheer the boyos on
> 
> [URL='http://www.saysomethingin.com/mp3player/rygbi/rygbi.mp3[/quote']http://www.saysomethingin.com/mp3player/rygbi/rygbi.mp3[/URL]



CHEATING!!! Sorry I mean TWYLLO!!!!!


----------



## Pingu (Oct 13, 2011)

cardiff... are rubbish...


----------



## bendeus (Oct 13, 2011)

flypanam said:


> CHEATING!!! Sorry I mean TWYLLO!!!!!


----------



## bendeus (Oct 13, 2011)

Pingu said:


> cardiff... are rubbish...



They are. But


----------



## Pingu (Oct 13, 2011)

bendeus said:


> They are. But


listen to the thingy i posted


----------



## bendeus (Oct 13, 2011)

Ah. In work


----------



## ddraig (Oct 13, 2011)

i know this is for the 6 nations but will just leave it here

Barry John!
Phil Bennett!!


and great fersiwn by Cerys too


----------



## ddraig (Oct 13, 2011)

up to 45000 people going to Millennium Stadium for the game! Cardiff is going to go mental if we win on Sat
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-15272718

DON'T WATCH THIS! 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-15299340
cameron to cheer for Wales
puke 
cunt


----------



## 1927 (Oct 14, 2011)

Now talking about 62000 tickets being released for stadium saturday!


----------



## gabi (Oct 14, 2011)

what will happen if Wales lose? for Cardiff's sake i sincerely hope that doesn't happen. there'll be a fuckin riot.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 14, 2011)

Nah, there'll just be lots of moping.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Oct 14, 2011)

ddraig said:


> DON'T WATCH THIS!
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-15299340
> cameron to cheer for Wales
> puke
> cunt


That seals it.

Allez les Bleu!


----------



## bendeus (Oct 14, 2011)

sleaterkinney said:


> That seals it.
> 
> Allez les Bleu!



I would have been disappointed with any other gesture of support, sleater


----------



## 1927 (Oct 14, 2011)

To be fair Cameron was damned whatever he did.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 14, 2011)

1927 said:


> To be fair Cameron was damned whatever he did.



What we want is footage of disco dave singing Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau, _a la _John Redwood, during the buildup.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 14, 2011)

I feel physically ill with nerves this morning, btw.


----------



## gabi (Oct 14, 2011)

i take it you're going to the stadium bendeus


----------



## flypanam (Oct 14, 2011)

Get some cans and drink through!

With friends like Cameron batting for you, yr fucked.

Still C'mon Wales!


----------



## treefrog (Oct 14, 2011)

They were updating the "Fan Trail" from the city centre to the ground today (my new flat is just off the Trail  ) I'll post up some photos of how it all looks tomorrow if I get a chance.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 14, 2011)

No. I'm going to watch it on the sofa in my mate's house where I have watched every significant rygbi moment I haven't had tickets for since the Lions tour of South Africa in 1997. Having a sofa present is essential on such occasions, as it gives one the to hide behind it if things get too much


----------



## bendeus (Oct 14, 2011)

flypanam said:


> Get some cans and drink through!



I'm running a half marathon on Sunday. No booze


----------



## gabi (Oct 14, 2011)

bendeus said:


> I'm running a half marathon on Sunday. No booze



Good god. You're a disgrace.


----------



## treefrog (Oct 14, 2011)

bendeus said:


> No. I'm going to watch it on the sofa in my mate's house where I have watched every significant rygbi moment I haven't had tickets for since the Lions tour of South Africa in 1997. Having a sofa present is essential on such occasions, as it gives one the to hide behind it if things get too much


May you end the game jumping off the aforementioned sofa in sheer joy


----------



## flypanam (Oct 14, 2011)

gabi said:


> what will happen if Wales lose? for Cardiff's sake i sincerely hope that doesn't happen. there'll be a fuckin riot.





littlebabyjesus said:


> Nah, there'll just be lots of moping.



An outpouring of depressing literature.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 14, 2011)

flypanam said:


> An outpouring of depressing literature.





The  grinding sound of normal service resuming.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 14, 2011)

gabi said:


> Good god. You're a disgrace.



I'll crack the Dom Perignon when we beat the Crims in the final


----------



## flypanam (Oct 14, 2011)

bendeus said:


> I'm running a half marathon on Sunday. No booze



Bendy you have my permission to take the skirt off. Man up, 28 cans of Special Brew, run the half in drunken daze.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 14, 2011)

flypanam said:


> Bendy you have my permission to take the skirt off. Man up, 28 cans of Special Brew, run the half in drunken daze.



I would, but I've got £400 of sponsorship riding on my heaving my vast bulk around the course. It's for da baybeez!!11!!


----------



## mattie (Oct 14, 2011)

I'll pay you £400 more if you do it after 28 cans of special brew.


----------



## flypanam (Oct 14, 2011)

mattie said:


> I'll pay you £400 more if you do it after 28 cans of special brew.



Now thats a challenge you can't turn down.


----------



## 1927 (Oct 14, 2011)

bendeus said:


> I feel physically ill with nerves this morning, btw.



Rhys Priestland just Tweeted."Haven't been this nervous about a semi since brokeback mountain"! lol


----------



## mattie (Oct 14, 2011)

Eliota Fuimaono-Sapolu is seriously pissed.  About more than just scheduling.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...broadside-at-irb/story-e6frg7o6-1226160467611

This happened a week or so ago, but he's not taking things lying down:
http://twitter.com/#!/Eliota_Sapolu


----------



## gabi (Oct 14, 2011)

oh dear. what a dick.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 14, 2011)

mattie said:


> Eliota Fuimaono-Sapolu is seriously pissed. About more than just scheduling.
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...broadside-at-irb/story-e6frg7o6-1226160467611
> 
> ...



He is an utter, utter cock, and I hope the IRB _and _Gloucester deal harshly with him for some of the shit he's pulled. Fucking egotistical, homophobic bellend of the first stripe..


----------



## mattie (Oct 14, 2011)

bendeus said:


> He is an utter, utter cock, and I hope the IRB _and _Gloucester deal harshly with him for some of the shit he's pulled. Fucking egotistical, homophobic bellend of the first stripe..



I agree with some of what he's said (can't find the homophobic stuff?  Perhaps thankfully) but there's ways and means to make a point.

Moaning about WC scheduling after you're knocked out is a bit thin if you've known the schedule for a number of years.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 14, 2011)

It's the retweeting of death threats to Nigel Owens, and some homophobic comments that are the real issue.


----------



## gabi (Oct 14, 2011)

the accusations of racism are beyond bonkers too.

just a prize dickhead all round really. in general samoans are fucking cool. this dudes not.


----------



## mattie (Oct 14, 2011)

bendeus said:


> It's the retweeting of death threats to Nigel Owens, and some homophobic comments that are the real issue.



Missed those.  Hopefully so did Nigel Owens.

We could do without resorting to attacks on referees.  Naming no further names.


----------



## mattie (Oct 14, 2011)

gabi said:


> the accusations of racism are beyond bonkers too.
> 
> just a prize dickhead all round really. in general samoans are fucking cool. this dudes not.



I agree that the nations outside of 6N and Tri-nations haven't done well out of scheduling, but if he can't see that's a TV rights/audiences/advertising revenue issue and not racism he's really losing the plot.

The question is, why should we pander to TV advertising revenue.  I think it's unfair.


----------



## mattie (Oct 14, 2011)

On that general note:
http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/fiji-samoa-and-tonga-to-get-seat-each-in-irb-council.html


----------



## bendeus (Oct 14, 2011)

> Eliota_Sapolu fuimaono-sapolu
> There is a blatant conflict of interest that could have been easily avoided. Professional issue, not personal. Lawyers get it. Monkeys don't
> 
> eh? Is the referee openly gay? Thats awesome! No complaints now.
> ...





> Retweeted by Eliota_Sapolu  all I can guarantee you Graham is Nigel Owens is a wanted man in Samoa - Dead.





> Benjiiz_Wifey Falena Liyah Vaatofu
> Retweeted by Eliota_Sapolu
> @Eliota_Sapolu IRB is fucked up arrd need to get new IRB officials and that Welsh ref if i was ay hitman i wud shot dat kient
> __________________





> fuimaono-sapolu (@Eliota_Sapolu)
> 30/09/2011 22:37
> @CraigChalmers @nigelrefowens he was fucking shit! I can understand the hate!! Haha good luck u racist biased prick.





> Fiaapia Meredith (@PiaMeredith)
> 30/09/2011 22:39
> @Eliota_Sapolu That gay welsh ref needs a good fasi!! #racist mdafka
> __________________



#1 is his own words. The others all retweets, apparently.


----------



## elfman (Oct 14, 2011)

mattie said:


> On that general note:
> http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/fiji-samoa-and-tonga-to-get-seat-each-in-irb-council.html



I didn't realise that they didn't have separate seats. I tried to sign the petition but the lovely Chinese government don't want me to see that site for my own safety 

Edit: Just seen how the council is made up. Its pretty unfair really http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Rugby_Board#Executive_Council


----------



## mattie (Oct 14, 2011)

Pretty damn unpleasant.  I can understand players getting frustrated by refs, but calling integrity into question is a no-go.  In fact, any commentary in public forum about refs is a no-go.

Given he's a lawyer, I would have hoped he might have thought through what he writes.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 14, 2011)

mattie said:


> Pretty damn unpleasant. I can understand players getting frustrated by refs, but calling integrity into question is a no-go. In fact, any commentary in public forum about refs is a no-go.
> 
> Given he's a lawyer, I would have hoped he might have thought through what he writes.



I'm hoping for a significant (1-year or more) ban. Hearing is soon, apparently.


----------



## mattie (Oct 14, 2011)

bendeus said:


> I'm hoping for a significant (1-year or more) ban. Hearing is soon, apparently.



Glaws fans are up-in-arms - principally as they're going to lose him for a good long while, not because what he said was objectionable, but to their credit they're up-in-arms about him being a dick and bringing it on himself.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 14, 2011)

mattie said:


> Glaws fans are up-in-arms - principally as they're going to lose him for a good long while, not because what he said was objectionable, but to their credit they're up-in-arms about him being a dick and bringing it on himself.



I should hope so. It's inexcusable, and a bit footballey.


----------



## mattie (Oct 14, 2011)

Anyway, seats for the Pacific Islands on IRB?


----------



## ddraig (Oct 14, 2011)

gabi said:


> what will happen if Wales lose? for Cardiff's sake i sincerely hope that doesn't happen. there'll be a fuckin riot.


no it doesn't work like that in Wales, we are not englun and we don't EXPECT to WIN or DESERVE the cup etc


----------



## elfman (Oct 14, 2011)

ddraig said:


> no it doesn't work like that in Wales, we are not englun and we don't EXPECT to WIN or DESERVE the cup etc


Is that how all the English think then?

I don't think I've seen an English rugby related riot...


----------



## mattie (Oct 14, 2011)

bendeus said:


> I should hope so. It's inexcusable, and a bit footballey.



It certainly feels a bit tawdry, whining in press and media and then not actually going to face the consequences.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 14, 2011)

ddraig said:


> no it doesn't work like that in Wales, we are not englun and we don't EXPECT to WIN or DESERVE the cup etc



This'll go well


----------



## mattie (Oct 14, 2011)

bendeus said:


> This'll go well



I hope it doesn't escape your attention this time round.

Anyway, do  you reckon - outside of the tackiness and nastiness of his comments about Nigel Owens - the EFS had a point re the non-6N/TN teams not getting a fair ride?


----------



## 1927 (Oct 14, 2011)

mattie said:


> I hope it doesn't escape your attention this time round.
> 
> Anyway, do you reckon - outside of the tackiness and nastiness of his comments about Nigel Owens - the EFS had a point re the non-6N/TN teams not getting a fair ride?


Yes, but they have already met to discuss it and all the Tier 1 sides have agreed to playing midweek games at the next RWC in Europe in 4 years time.


----------



## gabi (Oct 14, 2011)

mattie said:


> I hope it doesn't escape your attention this time round.
> 
> Anyway, do you reckon - outside of the tackiness and nastiness of his comments about Nigel Owens - the EFS had a point re the non-6N/TN teams not getting a fair ride?



Er, no.

He can fuck off. If he thinks the 'racist' old world will tune into Samoa v Georgia and he'll get the TV platform that his ego clearly demands for that.. then well..

The wind's there son. Now piss away.

The PI teams deserve a combined seat on the IRB, yes. Not individual seats. Particularly given the level of corruption in each of unions (Samoa, Tonga, Fiji)


----------



## mattie (Oct 14, 2011)

gabi said:


> Er, no.
> 
> He can fuck off. If he thinks the 'racist' old world will tune into Samoa v Georgia and he'll get the TV platform that his ego clearly demands for that.. then well..
> 
> ...



I take your point, but I'm not sure giving teams who command a decent TV audience (and hence generate TV revenue) an 'easier ride' is necessarily fair - it should be a level playing field as a contest. As 1927 points out, this has been addressed for the next WC, but it took some shouting (not referring to EFS directly here) for it to get done. A single seat would be better than current arrangements, as at present the pacific islands have to go through a mouthpiece shared by NZ and Oz, who don't really share the same issues faced by the likes of Fiji.

The issues around use of IRB funds in some pacific islands is troubling, but I'm not sure the two topics are related.


----------



## flypanam (Oct 14, 2011)

They should get a seat each in fairness.

Anyhow what about the other semi? I can't see the Aussies beating the AB's in Eden Park.


----------



## mattie (Oct 14, 2011)

Me neither, knacked Carter or no.

It'll be a beast of a game.  There's 2 semi-finals shaping up nicely.


----------



## gabi (Oct 14, 2011)

I reckon the Aus/NZ game will be very tight. Down to the best goalkicker, which looks like bizarrely being Piri Weepu at the moment. NZ by 5.


----------



## 1927 (Oct 14, 2011)

As I've stated before NZ especially have no desire to increase development of rugby in the PI's as they want to be able to cream off players at will. I cant find a total list of fixtures, but have a gut feeling that Wales probably play more games against PI's than the big nations on their doorstep. In fact Wales have recently announced a tour next season which i going to cost us in excess of  £100k.(Had they known that we would be ranked as highly as we are likely to be by then they may well have reconsidered that idea!) On the otherhand you have the ABs moaning that they arent getting enough money!


----------



## gabi (Oct 14, 2011)

1927 said:


> As I've stated before NZ especially have no desire to increase development of rugby in the PI's as they want to be able to cream off players at will. I cant find a total list of fixtures, but have a gut feeling that Wales probably play more games against PI's than the big nations on their doorstep. In fact Wales have recently announced a tour next season which i going to cost us in excess of £100k.(Had they known that we would be ranked as highly as we are likely to be by then they may well have reconsidered that idea!) On the otherhand you have the ABs moaning that they arent getting enough money!



FFS. I asked before. Tell me, exactly, how many players in the ABs squad were born in the pacific islands?

Go on.


----------



## gabi (Oct 14, 2011)

And, just for the lulz - how many saffas in your cricket side currently getting their arses spanked in hyderabad?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 14, 2011)

gabi said:


> FFS. I asked before. Tell me, exactly, how many players in the ABs squad were born in the pacific islands?
> 
> Go on.


Ah, and how many in the Samoa squad were born in NZ? A kiwi friend pointed this out to me - the answer is 17.


----------



## gabi (Oct 14, 2011)

Aye... i really dont think people here in the UK understand the relationship between NZ and the pacific islands.

I grew up there. I have friends in family in samoa, tonga, fiji, nuie, cook islands. It's not as black and white as the media here likes to represent. Auckland has a bigger Samoan population than Samoa. We don't 'poach' players. If they're born in Apia they're often brought up in Auckland.


----------



## flypanam (Oct 14, 2011)

gabi said:


> FFS. I asked before. Tell me, exactly, how many players in the ABs squad were born in the pacific islands?
> 
> Go on.



Off the top of my head Mils was born in Samoa.


----------



## 1927 (Oct 14, 2011)

gabi said:


> And, just for the lulz - how many saffas in your cricket side currently getting their arses spanked in hyderabad?



I dont believe the Wales side currently has any saffas playing for them, but I certainly know that they are not playing in Hyderabad right now.


----------



## gabi (Oct 14, 2011)

It's England and Wales. Ie, you too  Sadly, there's not currently a welshman good enough to make the grade, just a bunch of afrikaners


----------



## gabi (Oct 14, 2011)

flypanam said:


> Off the top of my head Mils was born in Samoa.



Yep, there's two in the squad. Both of whom moved to NZ before the age of 10. If that's 'creaming the talent' then.. well...


----------



## 1927 (Oct 14, 2011)

gabi said:


> It's England and Wales. Ie, you too  Sadly, there's not currently a welshman good enough to make the grade, just a bunch of afrikaners



I'll decide who my national team is thanks, you arrogant twat.


----------



## 1927 (Oct 14, 2011)

gabi said:


> It's England and Wales. Ie, you too  Sadly, there's not currently a welshman good enough to make the grade, just a bunch of afrikaners


Maybe thats why a lot of welsh supporters dont support England. By the way the last time Wales played England we won!


----------



## gabi (Oct 14, 2011)

1927 said:


> I'll decide who my national team is thanks, you arrogant twat.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/England_and_Wales_Cricket_Board

I thought you were Welsh?


----------



## 1927 (Oct 14, 2011)

I once asked Xavier Rush at a Q&A session whether Fiji would be able to compete on the world stage if players like Rocokoko and Sivivatu chose to play for their national team rather than the AB, and whether it would encourage others to do the same.

The lying cunt made me lokk a right twat  and said they were both born in NZ. Its obviously a touchy subject!


----------



## 1927 (Oct 14, 2011)

gabi said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/England_and_Wales_Cricket_Board
> 
> I thought you were Welsh?



I am.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wales_Minor_Counties_Cricket_Club

Now run along little boy.


----------



## gabi (Oct 14, 2011)

Oh dear


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 14, 2011)

The England cricket team really ought to be called the England _and Wales_ cricket team. Robert Croft memorably used to describe his pride at being picked for something he called the Britain cricket team. 

1927, you're not really right about that at all. I mean you can support who you want, but it really _is_ the England and Wales cricket team.

As for lots of Welsh cricket supporters not supporting England, well, I give you the Ashes test at Cardiff as evidence to the contrary.


----------



## 1927 (Oct 14, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> The England cricket team really ought to be called the England _and Wales_ cricket team. Robert Croft memorably used to describe his pride at being picked for something he called the Britain cricket team.
> 
> 1927, you're not really right about that at all.
> 
> As for lots of Welsh cricket supporters not supporting England, well, I give you the Ashes test at Cardiff as evidence to the contrary.



And every ticket holder was Welsh were they? That famous Barmy Army of ours.lol

If I choose to support Wales rather than England and Wales, that's up to me surely?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 14, 2011)

1927 said:


> And every ticket holder was Welsh were they? That famous Barmy Army of ours.lol
> 
> If I choose to support Wales rather than England and Wales, that's up to me surely?



If a team called England plays a team called Wales in some knockaround charity match, I will support Wales. Otherwise, in proper cricket matches that mean something - ie Test matches - I am a Welsh England supporter.

As for a large number of those who attended the Cardiff test not being Welsh, well you're just on dodgy ground there. Were there _any_ Welsh people at the ground not cheering on England? More than ten? More than five?

Any Welsh cricketer will dream of being picked for the England team! They really, really will. As such, how can any real Welsh cricket fan not feel that England is their team?


----------



## flypanam (Oct 14, 2011)

So Warren Gatland writes "I knew Wales would do well. Once I decided to keep Chavin off the team..."


----------



## ddraig (Oct 14, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> The England cricket team really ought to be called the England _and Wales_ cricket team. Robert Croft memorably used to describe his pride at being picked for something he called the Britain cricket team.
> 
> 1927, you're not really right about that at all. I mean you can support who you want, but it really _is_ the England and Wales cricket team.
> 
> As for lots of Welsh cricket supporters not supporting England, well, I give you the Ashes test at Cardiff as evidence to the contrary.



from living near the ground and seeing the crowds arriving, staying in all the b+b's around me and in the pubs i would say the majority were englun


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 14, 2011)

ddraig said:


> from living near the ground and seeing the crowds arriving, staying in all the b+b's around me and in the pubs i would say the majority were englun


Don't facepalm me. So what? Were there any Welsh fans not cheering on England?

If you were a cricket-mad kid growing up in Wales, as I was, you would daydream of playing for England, as I did. There's no contradiction there.


----------



## gabi (Oct 14, 2011)

ok. sorry for bringing cricket into this. a debate about the ECB wasn't the intention.

my only point was that NZ doesn't 'poach' players, its a myth that the british media have created, and perpetuated... and it's a pretty lazy way of thinking. go down there. hang out in south auckland.


----------



## ddraig (Oct 14, 2011)

stop being so fucking contrary all the time then! you may enjoy doffing your cap but a lot of Welsh people don't.

e2a to lbj


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 14, 2011)

ddraig said:


> stop being so fucking contrary all the time then! you may enjoy doffing your cap but a lot of Welsh people don't.


Fuck off. Really. You're not even a cricket fan, are you? fuck's sake.


----------



## ddraig (Oct 14, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Fuck off. Really. You're not even a cricket fan, are you? fuck's sake.


where's our handbag icon gone! 
is your opinion worth more than mine then? jeez


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 14, 2011)

ddraig said:


> is your opinion worth more than mine then? jeez


It is if you think I'm doffing my fucking cap by supporting the England cricket team, yes. That shows you up as clueless about the matter.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 14, 2011)

mattie said:


> I hope it doesn't escape your attention this time round.



Mate, I think you're labouring the point a bit if you think that Ddraig, who is fairly well-known for not being particularly well-disposed towards the English across a whole range of threads, proves your point about England bringing out genuine nastiness on rugby ones.



> Anyway, do you reckon - outside of the tackiness and nastiness of his comments about Nigel Owens - the EFS had a point re the non-6N/TN teams not getting a fair ride?



Yes, I do, but what are the alternatives? The obvious would be to shrink the competition to 16 teams, thus allowing even breaks between matches, but that would be bad for the development of the game in the emerging nations. I guess in five-team pools then they should alternate long break/short breaks irrespective of world ranking


----------



## bendeus (Oct 14, 2011)

1927 said:


> Yes, but they have already met to discuss it and all the Tier 1 sides have agreed to playing midweek games at the next RWC in Europe in 4 years time.



Ah. There we go, then


----------



## ddraig (Oct 14, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> It is if you think I'm doffing my fucking cap by supporting the England cricket team, yes. That shows you up as clueless about the matter.


well sir, i shall bow out then boss, well done


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 14, 2011)

ddraig said:


> well sir, i shall bow out then boss, well done


Insult people then come back with crap like this? wtf


----------



## bendeus (Oct 14, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Any Welsh cricketer will dream of being picked for the England team! They really, really will. As such, how can any real Welsh cricket fan not feel that England is their team?



Fucking Uncle Tomoses


----------



## 1927 (Oct 14, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Mate, I think you're labouring the point a bit if you think that Ddraig, who is fairly well-known for not being particularly well-disposed towards the English across a whole range of threads, proves your point about England bringing out genuine nastiness on rugby ones.
> 
> Yes, I do, but what are the alternatives? The obvious would be to shrink the competition to 16 teams, thus allowing even breaks between matches, but that would be bad for the development of the game in the emerging nations. I guess in five-team pools then they should alternate long break/short breaks irrespective of world ranking



What actually compounded the situation was smaller teams sitting out the first weekend of matches. had they played the first round of games they could have had a day off at some point in the tournament which would had eased their problems. Further more, as there were games on 3 days (fri, sat and sun) surely it was not beyond the intelligence of organisers to use that extra 2 days to ensure that weaker teams could get a bigger break in between games.


----------



## ddraig (Oct 14, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Insult people then come back with crap like this? wtf


so u never insult anyone?
you took up the challenge of telling 1927 that there wasn't SURELY mostly englun fans at the ashes, i provided you with some first hand information as i lived right next to the ground
obv not good enough for you and you continue shouting the odds
now who's being insulting?
so here is another one for you


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 14, 2011)

What I said was that the Welsh fans at the ground will have been overwhelmingly cheering on England. I only saw it on TV, but from what I saw either the locals were cheering on England, or there were virtually no locals at all at the match.

But enough of the derail.


----------



## ddraig (Oct 14, 2011)

that's not what you said but do have the last word dear...


----------



## gabi (Oct 14, 2011)

south africa B currently doing alright in hyderabad anyway, should be a cracking finish.

now. back to the rugger.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 14, 2011)

Cricket (check), sexual harrassment (check). I propose we tackle genital mutilation in sub Saharan Africa next


----------



## The Octagon (Oct 14, 2011)

I'm just sad trampie hasn't shown up, he makes ddraig's rantings seem positively royalist.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 14, 2011)

Sorry, I'll leave it now, honest.


----------



## 1927 (Oct 14, 2011)

gabi said:


> south africa B currently doing alright in hyderabad anyway, should be a cracking finish.
> 
> now. back to the rugger.



Oh dear, by use of that one word "rugger" you have told me more about yourself than you could have conveyed in 5000 more well chosen words!


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 14, 2011)

1927 said:


> Oh dear, by use of that one word "rugger" you have told me more about yourself than you could have conveyed in 5000 more well chosen words!


Except that he's a kiwi, so your assumptions probably aren't valid.


----------



## flypanam (Oct 14, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Cricket (check), sexual harrassment (check). I propose we tackle genital mutilation in sub Saharan Africa next



We can't cut it!


----------



## gabi (Oct 14, 2011)

1927 said:


> Oh dear, by use of that one word "rugger" you have told me more about yourself than you could have conveyed in 5000 more well chosen words!



clearly this WC has become dull as dishwater since mike tindall and his cheating, floozy bothering mates fucked off..

we're reduced to this level of banter. bring on tomorrow


----------



## kabbes (Oct 15, 2011)

Go on Wales!


----------



## mattie (Oct 15, 2011)

Oh well.

Regarding who we all want to win it, I assume we're all Frenchmen now?


----------



## The Boy (Oct 15, 2011)

mattie said:


> Oh well.
> 
> Regarding who we all want to win it, I assume we're all Frenchmen now?


 
I'm not even sure *I* am a Frenchman after today...


----------



## mattie (Oct 15, 2011)

The Boy said:


> I'm not even sure *I* am a Frenchman after today...



I'll admit I was thinking with my parochial hat on.

And I'd quite like to see both Nonu and Campese cry.  I'm warming to Lievremont, what with his Magnum PI look on the go.


----------



## The Boy (Oct 15, 2011)

mattie said:


> I'll admit I was thinking with my parochial hat on.
> 
> And I'd quite like to see both Nonu and Campese cry. I'm warming to Lievremont, what with his Magnum PI look on the go.



More of an Inspector Clouseu, no?


----------



## kabbes (Oct 15, 2011)

Most bullshit win ever


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 15, 2011)

tbh come next week, I'll be urging the French forward. But they ain't going to win. They may well get hammered.


----------



## mattie (Oct 15, 2011)

The Boy said:


> More of an Inspector Clouseu, no?



When not speaking or moving, he's a bit less Clouseu and more early stage Tom Selleck.  When he speaks, well, it can get a bit slapstick.


----------



## kabbes (Oct 15, 2011)

It's amazing how often international sporting tournaments throw one side improbably into the final despite being a bit shit.


----------



## mrs quoad (Oct 15, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> tbh come next week, I'll be urging the French forward. But they ain't going to win. They may well get hammered.


Lots of points, I suspect.

Crikey @ the semi, mind.


----------



## Pingu (Oct 15, 2011)

ok

i want austrailia to beat NZ by some jammy 80th minute incident involving a sending off, a bowl of muller light and a penalty that bounces in off the woodwork

then the 3rd place play off will be the final that should have been


----------



## bendeus (Oct 15, 2011)

Yeah. I'm hearing you there.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 15, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> tbh come next week, I'll be urging the French forward. But they ain't going to win. They may well get hammered.


at times like this you have to support whichever country has the best national anthem, and that's clearly france.


----------



## gabi (Oct 15, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Yeah. I'm hearing you there.



jesus.. i forgot about the 3rd place game. whats the point of that? both sides are out.. purely financial?


----------



## bendeus (Oct 15, 2011)

Dunno. It's not really a game that either side is up for, is it?

I hope that we can pick ourselves up and try and smash whoever we end up playing off the park, just to prove what could have been, I guess.


----------



## Limejuice (Oct 15, 2011)

France lost twice in the pool games. They barely limped home against a side unfairly weakened by a cretinous refereeing decision. France must be the least deserving RWC finalist of all time.

I never thought I'd hear myself supporting  southern hemisphere team, but I hope that whoever wins tomorrow's semi-final crucifies France in the final.

For my money Pinaar called it right at half time: the referee got it wrong, wrong, wrong.

Wales, you were robbed.


----------



## The Boy (Oct 15, 2011)

Limejuice said:


> France lost twice in the pool games. They barely limped home against a side unfairly weakened by a *cretinous refereeing decision*. France must be the least deserving RWC finalist of all time.
> 
> I never thought I'd hear myself supporting southern hemisphere team, but I hope that whoever wins tomorrow's semi-final crucifies France in the final.
> 
> ...



really, really have to take issue with the bits in bold.  There was nothing 'cretinous' about the decision.  Warburton committed a dangerous tackle.  Like it or not, those things tend to attract cards and, iirc, the length of bans handed out shows that the IRB take spear tackles as seriously as gouging.

As for the ITV pundits, their argument seemed to revolve around the red card ruining the game.  Tough.  Rules is rules.  If you don't want to be red carded, don't give the ref the opportunity by committing a dangerous tackle.


----------



## Ranu (Oct 15, 2011)

There was no malice in the tackle and he released the player before he even hit the ground, which means by definition it isn't a spear tackle.  It's a yellow card by anyone's understanding of the rules.


----------



## Pingu (Oct 15, 2011)

the releasing bit is probably what did for him. he should have guided him to the ground so his legs didnt go higher than his shoulders.

or...

if he was getting a red anyhow...


----------



## The Boy (Oct 15, 2011)

Ranu said:


> There was no malice in the tackle and he released the player before he even hit the ground, which means by definition it isn't a spear tackle. It's a yellow card by anyone's understanding of the rules.



There has been discussion about this point on the other thread so no point rehashing.  Point is, malice or not is irrelevant according to the IRB guidelines.  Right or wrong, the ref made the correct call according to the way his employers want the rules interpreted.  Nothing cretinous about it.

Anyway, who's gonna start the 2012 6N thread?


----------



## bendeus (Oct 15, 2011)

The Boy said:


> There has been discussion about this point on the other thread so no point rehashing.  Point is, malice or not is irrelevant according to the IRB guidelines.  Right or wrong, the ref made the correct call according to the way his employers want the rules interpreted.  Nothing cretinous about it.
> 
> Anyway, who's gonna start the 2012 6N thread?



You


----------



## treefrog (Oct 16, 2011)

I watched the last ten minutes of last nights natch from between my fingers. Wales totally deserved the win, and as my Kiwi mate pointed out "how the fuck does a team that loses to Tonga get to the final?" Tonight's match is going to be a grinder, don't want to call it as I'm always wrong...


----------



## sleaterkinney (Oct 16, 2011)

Really looking forward to today's match, should be a belter. Will the kiwis want to face france in the final?. Hows the nerves...


----------



## 1927 (Oct 16, 2011)

Pingu said:


> ok
> 
> i want austrailia to beat NZ by some jammy 80th minute incident involving a sending off, a bowl of muller light and a penalty that bounces in off the woodwork
> 
> then the 3rd place play off will be the final that should have been



The scenario I am praying for is Aus to beat NZ then hammer France in final. Wales then to beat NZ in 3rd place game and then  on 3rd december play Aus in the Millstad in the finak that coukd have been. We beat them to take our rightful place at the top of the world rankings.


----------



## han (Oct 16, 2011)

come on NZ! (still  about Wales).


----------



## mattie (Oct 16, 2011)

Poor old Quade.

He'll score the winning try now.


----------



## mattie (Oct 16, 2011)

NZ on fire here.  Bastards.


----------



## mattie (Oct 16, 2011)

Magnum PI's not happy:
http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,3818_7245005,00.html


----------



## London_Calling (Oct 16, 2011)

I know he's the replacement for the replacement of Dan Carter, but you'd think Zuckerberg had enough on his plate with Facebook.

Great sport so far....


----------



## Balbi (Oct 16, 2011)

Cracking game so far.

Big hits, strong defence, nice passing - dodgy kicking remains though


----------



## bendeus (Oct 16, 2011)

Stuart Barnes' Lions team as of now:

15. Halfpenny
*14. Ashton*
13. Tuilagi
12. Roberts
11. North
*10. Sexton*
*9. Youngs*
1. Jenkins
2. Best
3. Jones
4. Charteris
5. Grey
6. O'Brien
8. Falatau
7. Warburton (C)

Lol.


----------



## mattie (Oct 16, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Stuart Barnes' Lions team as of now:
> 
> 15. Halfpenny
> *14. Ashton*
> ...



I know.  Grey and Charteris?  Pfff.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 16, 2011)

How Palmer isn't in that XV is equivalent to the firebombing of Dresden and the massacre of the Herero tribe in Namibia.


----------



## mattie (Oct 16, 2011)

bendeus said:


> How Palmer isn't in that XV is equivalent to the firebombing of Dresden and the massacre of the Herero tribe in Namibia.



Lawes must be wondering why Barnes reckons locks should be 18 feet tall.


----------



## mattie (Oct 16, 2011)

That _is_ the criteria Barnes is picking by, isn't it?


----------



## bendeus (Oct 16, 2011)

Yes. One tackle per half for every foot of height.


----------



## mattie (Oct 16, 2011)

I'm not following your tangent.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 16, 2011)

Charteris' tackle count in the first half against Ireland


----------



## mattie (Oct 16, 2011)

One swallow, summer etc.

And that's being fucking generous as well.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 16, 2011)

Agreed. We'll see how he kicks on in the 6N.

Your generosity has been noted


----------



## treefrog (Oct 16, 2011)

I've suggested that the Finals party I'm going to next weekend has a 1987 theme to it. *digs out shellsuit*


----------



## elfman (Oct 17, 2011)

Well my predictions were totally wrong again 

Missed the Wales v France game but caught most of the NZ V Aus game.

My prediction for the final is a NZ win...


----------



## Grandma Death (Oct 17, 2011)

Shaun Edwards contract expires Friday and I've just read on Facebook the WRU aren't renewing the contract.


----------



## The Boy (Oct 17, 2011)

Grandma Death said:


> Shaun Edwards contract expires Friday and I've just read on Facebook the WRU aren't renewing the contract.



That would be madness, imo.


----------



## gabi (Oct 17, 2011)

The Boy said:


> That would be madness, imo.



Im sure the english would (or rather should) be very interested by his availability. Actually so should NZ.


----------



## flypanam (Oct 18, 2011)

Yeah NZ should given that Stupid Brainless Wanker can't  tackle. How long did the 'best centre in the world' stay on the pitch on Sunday? 3 minutes.

I'm gutted for Wales. I think they would have taken NZ.


----------



## gabi (Oct 18, 2011)

flypanam said:


> Yeah NZ should given that Stupid Brainless Wanker can't tackle. How long did the 'best centre in the world' stay on the pitch on Sunday? 3 minutes.
> 
> I'm gutted for Wales. I think they would have taken NZ.



Who's described him as 'the best centre in the world'? He's good, very good, but not the best.

And as for Wales 'taking NZ'... Um... I think not. They got their arses handed to them by a side NZ thrashed a coupla weeks ago. It's a nice thought.. but.


----------



## 1927 (Oct 18, 2011)

gabi said:


> Who's described him as 'the best centre in the world'? He's good, very good, but not the best.
> 
> And as for Wales 'taking NZ'... Um... I think not. They got their arses handed to them by a side NZ thrashed a coupla weeks ago. It's a nice thought.. but.



How did we have our arse handed to us you cock?

We had 14 men and kept in the game throughout scoring the only try. Did you even watch the game?


----------



## treefrog (Oct 18, 2011)

Wales Vs New Zealand is definitely my "great match that never was" of the tournament.


----------



## gabi (Oct 18, 2011)

1927 said:


> How did we have our arse handed to us you cock?
> 
> We had 14 men and kept in the game throughout scoring the only try. Did you even watch the game?



Yep. I saw France make the final. Good work on the try tho. Made a real difference.


----------



## mattie (Oct 18, 2011)

You seem to have a very odd view on what constitutes a side getting 'their arses handed to them'.


----------



## treefrog (Oct 18, 2011)

mattie said:


> You seem to have a very odd view on what constitutes a side getting 'their arses handed to them'.



Indeed. And as a Scotland supporter I feel qualified on this subject.


----------



## mattie (Oct 18, 2011)

Those kerayzee kiwis

http://www.verboom.co.nz/categories/rugby-2011-t-shirts/dear-quade-cooper-shirt


----------



## flypanam (Oct 18, 2011)

gabi said:


> Who's described him as 'the best centre in the world'? He's good, very good, but not the best.



Post 23 http://www.ruggaworld.com/2011/03/28/sbw-carter-show-stuns-sharks/

Doing a nice line in hype like you've been doing here for the duration of the WC. I think the final must be your 'Glorious 12th' put a sash on son.


----------



## treefrog (Oct 18, 2011)

mattie said:


> Those kerayzee kiwis
> 
> http://www.verboom.co.nz/categories/rugby-2011-t-shirts/dear-quade-cooper-shirt


Stay classy New Zealand


----------



## bendeus (Oct 18, 2011)

The Boy said:


> That would be madness, imo.



Reading between the lines I think Sion actually wants to go. I reckon he's going be working with the RFU tout de suite.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 18, 2011)

elfman said:


> Well my predictions were totally wrong again
> 
> Missed the Wales v France game but caught most of the NZ V Aus game.
> 
> My prediction for the final is a NZ win...



Poor, poor NZ. Another choke on the cards then


----------



## bendeus (Oct 18, 2011)

1927 said:


> How did we have our arse handed to us you cock?
> 
> We had 14 men and kept in the game throughout scoring the only try. Did you even watch the game?



Not to mention territory and possession. Clueless know-nothing is clueless. Nothing further to learn here, move on.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 18, 2011)

mattie said:


> You seem to have a very odd view on what constitutes a side getting 'their arses handed to them'.



I think by 'their arses' he actually means 'a red card', but we shouldn't mock the afflicted.


----------



## elfman (Oct 18, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Poor, poor NZ. Another choke on the cards then


Actually, the only prediction I have got right in the knockouts was NZ winning the Argies, so its possible that this one may be right...


----------



## bendeus (Oct 18, 2011)

elfman said:


> Actually, the only prediction I have got right in the knockouts was NZ winning the Argies, so its possible that this one may be right...



I'm holding you more personally responsible than Froggy Alain for our being dumped out of the competition


----------



## Pingu (Oct 18, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Poor, poor NZ. Another choke on the cards then


 
tbh would be funny as fuck if france actually turned up on saturday and played like they can do at times. would be well funny if the team that has played pretty shit rugby (compared to how they can play) won the competition


----------



## bendeus (Oct 18, 2011)

Pingu said:


> tbh would be funny as fuck if france actually turned up on saturday and played like they can do at times. would be well funny if the team that has played pretty shit rugby (compared to how they can play) won the competition



It would be a travesty. A funny travesty, but a travesty nonetheless.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 18, 2011)

...although, do posters think that one phenomenal victory against the best side in the world in their own backyard would offset all the flukiness, dross and defeats against Tonga that got them to the final to make our garlic munching bretheren *deserving* of lifting the Webb Ellis trophy?


----------



## mattie (Oct 18, 2011)

I'd be able to say England lost only one game, and that to the World Champions, which would seem a bit of a travesty in its own right.


----------



## Pingu (Oct 18, 2011)

bendeus said:


> ...although, do posters think that one phenomenal victory against the best side in the world in their own backyard would offset all the flukiness, dross and defeats against Tonga that got them to the final to make our garlic munching bretheren *deserving* of lifting the Webb Ellis trophy?



tbh, and only after reading through gabis posts on this thread, yes... yes I do.

a fifty pointer would be even more hilarious... of course in order to achieve this NZ would need to have a couple of players red carded but that too i would find amusing. Aussie ref just to top it all off


----------



## bendeus (Oct 18, 2011)

Tricky one, isn't it? They have been an embarrassment so far, but I, too, would be able to forgive a great deal if they put in yet another searing, unforgettable, one-off performance to lift the trophy. As Pingu says, it would also enable us to point and laugh even harder at Gabi, which is no bad thing


----------



## 1927 (Oct 18, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Tricky one, isn't it? They have been an embarrassment so far, but I, too, would be able to forgive a great deal if they put in yet another searing, unforgettable, one-off performance to lift the trophy. As Pingu says, it would also enable us to point and laugh even harder at Gabi, which is no bad thing



You've persuaded me, I'm supporting the froggies!


----------



## flypanam (Oct 18, 2011)

No, it won't make me feel well desposed to France if they did win. I hate the fact that they lost to Tonga thus stuffing the Canadians who along with Wales have been one of the teams of the tournament.

However, France winning my lead to John Key actaully answering my email asking for a bill to be put forward to the Parliament of the Territory of New Zealand asking for an officially name change to 'Choke land' or 'The land of choke.'


----------



## mattie (Oct 18, 2011)

(moved to other thread)


----------



## mattie (Oct 18, 2011)

I'm not sure I follow- what's there to assess?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/welsh/15350332.stm

He does say a few stupid things, but in this instance he's not done a thing wrong.


----------



## The Boy (Oct 18, 2011)

bendeus said:


> ...although, do posters think that one phenomenal victory against the best side in the world in their own backyard would offset all the flukiness, dross and defeats against Tonga that got them to the final to make our garlic munching bretheren *deserving* of lifting the Webb Ellis trophy?



Yes is the short answer.  It's only the WC for christ;'s sakes. Fluking a tour win, or a Grand Slam would be a travesty, but a knockout tournament?  It's hardly the fault of the French players that they got drawn against the only team worse than them, nor is it their fault that Warburton got sent off.

Anyway, it was 3-3 after twenty minutes against a full strength Wales.  We probably would have beaten you with or without the red card.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 18, 2011)

mattie said:


> I'm not sure I follow- what's there to assess?
> 
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/welsh/15350332.stm
> 
> He does say a few stupid things, but in this instance he's not done a thing wrong.



^^^ this.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 18, 2011)

The Boy said:


> Yes is the short answer. It's only the WC for christ;'s sakes. Fluking a tour win, or a Grand Slam would be a travesty, but a knockout tournament? It's hardly the fault of the French players that they got drawn against the only team worse than them, nor is it their fault that Warburton got sent off.



It's not their fault as such, but given the fact that they were able to muster precisely twenty (at best) minutes of rugby over 160 against 14 men and a bunch of turnips doesn't make them particularly meritorious of greatness. You're right, though. If they really turn it on against NZ, all will be forgiven.



> Anyway, it was 3-3 after twenty minutes against a full strength Wales. We probably would have beaten you with or without the red card.



Sure mate, sure


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Oct 18, 2011)

Pingu said:


> tbh would be funny as fuck if france actually turned up on saturday and played like they can do at times. would be well funny if the team that has played pretty shit rugby (compared to how they can play) won the competition


its cos they're coached by someone from league innit?

Dave Ellis an Englishman excelling for France at the Rugby World Cup

mind you, the welsh defence was under the charge of shawn edwards, one of wigan's most successful sons.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 18, 2011)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> its cos they're coached by someone from league innit?
> 
> Dave Ellis an Englishman excelling for France at the Rugby World Cup
> 
> mind you, the welsh defence was under the charge of shawn edwards, one of wigan's most successful sons.



What, France have been playing shit rugby because they're coached by someone from league? This comes as not much of a surprise. He's a mealy mouthed wanker as well:




			
				Dave Ellis said:
			
		

> Shaun Edwards was speaking, and Warren Gatland. Everybody was saying, oh, Jamie Roberts this, and George North that. So it must have had a major psychological effect on the Welsh when Roberts was getting knocked on his arse, George North was getting knocked on his arse, the loose forwards were getting knocked back, there's no go-forward, and James Hook was going, 'What do I do next?'. We were pretty quiet last week. We just listened to what other people had to say.



Not sure what game he was watching, but he clearly had sunk a few pints of absinthe prior to kick off if he saw Roberts, North and our loose forwards getting knocked on their arses.

Got to hand it to Shaun, mind. He's doing well under the tutelage of some of the more senior partners with roots in the fifteen man code


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Oct 18, 2011)

kick and clap mate


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Oct 18, 2011)

and if they're playing shit rugby league but still got to the final, that doesn't say much about union atm either.

anyway, thought wales blew it tbh, but quite an exciting match. kiwis beating the green and golds was awful, from a spectator's point of view unless you enjoy defensive grinding stop start match play (which you seem to). i hope the all blacks win on the weekend, and win with some flair, but to be honest, i hope they win most to beat the fucking french,


----------



## bendeus (Oct 18, 2011)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> and if they're playing shit rugby league but still got to the final, that doesn't say much about union atm either.



I'd say that this WC proves that union is in far, far better health than it was last time round. The rule changes (or more precisely, new interpretations) have improved things. I think we had one or our periodic 13 vs. 15 tiffs after the last world cup, didn't we? That, admittedly, was bobbins; this one has been far more entertaining.



> anyway, thought wales blew it tbh, but quite an exciting match.



Compelling, yes. And yes, we did blow it, but in a fairly glorious way, I guess 



> unless you enjoy defensive grinding stop start match play (which you seem to).



Touche!

I must admit that I do like a brilliantly executed game of ten-man rugby in hideous conditions. It's part of the masochism of the code. But such games are only good if they're done in the right conditions and with the right staff. The type of rugby England have been erroneously trying to play over the course of the competition, for example, has, if anything, been worse than a game of league.

E2A: You'll never know or understand the joy of this:


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Oct 18, 2011)

you're indefatigable man


----------



## bendeus (Oct 18, 2011)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> you're indefatigable man



Oi! I'll give you indefatigable! I haven't been trolling the grass shaggers threads for ages now, have I?


----------



## flypanam (Oct 19, 2011)

Saddest episode of the world cup so far

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5EhWkYpquE&feature=player_embedded


----------



## flypanam (Oct 19, 2011)

Sorry I was wrong.

Thierry Dusautoir, Will Genia, Jerome Kaino, Ma’a Nonu, David Pocock and Piri Weepu.

Apparently the IRB thinks one of these is the player of  2011.

Really?


----------



## mattie (Oct 19, 2011)

flypanam said:


> Sorry I was wrong.
> 
> Thierry Dusautoir, Will Genia, Jerome Kaino, Ma’a Nonu, David Pocock and Piri Weepu.
> 
> ...



What's face-palmy about that?


----------



## 1927 (Oct 19, 2011)

The crazy thing is that the short list for player of the year was drawn up before the RWC even kicked off. Wouldnt it have been an idea to actually include the sports showpiece in the votes?


----------



## mattie (Oct 19, 2011)

I would say there should be a separate award for that.


----------



## flypanam (Oct 19, 2011)

1927 said:


> The crazy thing is that the short list for player of the year was drawn up before the RWC even kicked off. Wouldnt it have been an idea to actually include the sports showpiece in the votes?



This.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 19, 2011)

mattie said:


> I would say there should be a separate award for that.



Ashton will walk it.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 19, 2011)

flypanam said:


> Sorry I was wrong.
> 
> Thierry Dusautoir, Will Genia, Jerome Kaino, Ma’a Nonu, David Pocock and Piri Weepu.
> 
> ...



Kaino or Pocock for me.


----------



## mattie (Oct 19, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Ashton will walk it.



If anything, he'll swan-dive it.


----------



## flypanam (Oct 19, 2011)

Weepu.


----------



## gabi (Oct 19, 2011)

Pocock for me. Weepu's been a revelation this tournament but wasn't starting leading up to it.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 19, 2011)

Sapolu gets a six month ban............................suspended for a year.

http://www.irb.com/mm/document/tour...rwc11jodecisionrwclvfuimaono-sapoluandsru.pdf

Fucking cowards:



> Ms Ahern exhibited copies of tweets posted by the Player on 1 October 2011. At about 14:47 the Player wrote: “Nigel Owens: he was fucking shit! I can understand the hate!! Haha good luck u racist biased prick.” Shortly after he wrote: “That’s why we need a neutral ref. All I’m hearing is how bullshit the ref was! Haha”. Further, the player subsequently (on 4 October) appeared on a television programme where he confirmed that he had used and meant the term “racist.”



They haven't even once addressed the fact that he retweeted death threats against a match referee. Those minutes are a fucking disgrace.


----------



## mattie (Oct 19, 2011)

flypanam said:


> Post 23 http://www.ruggaworld.com/2011/03/28/sbw-carter-show-stuns-sharks/
> 
> Doing a nice line in hype like you've been doing here for the duration of the WC. I think the final must be your 'Glorious 12th' put a sash on son.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 19, 2011)

mattie said:


>



Win. Made of fucking win


----------



## elfman (Oct 20, 2011)

gabi said:


> Pocock for me. Weepu's been a revelation this tournament but wasn't starting leading up to it.



I've rated Weepu for the last year or so but he's gone a step further at the WC.

For me it would Pocock I think with Weepu a close 2nd


----------



## bendeus (Oct 20, 2011)

Guscott's Lions as of this world cup:

I5 Ben Foden (England)
14 George North (Wales)
13 Manu Tuilagi (England)
12 Jamie Roberts (Wales)
11 Keith Earls (Ireland)
10 Rhys Priestland (Wales)
9 Mike Phillips (Wales)
8 Jamie Heaslip (Ireland)
7 Sam Warburton (Wales)
6 Sean O'Brien (Ireland)
5 Paul O'Connell (Ireland)
4 Luke Charteris (Wales)
3 Adam Jones (Wales)
2 Rory Best (Ireland)
1 Gethin Jenkins (Wales)

The only ones I'd really take issue with there are Earls and Heaslip. It's not exactly the side I'd pick, but fairly balanced in terms of performances over the competition


----------



## mattie (Oct 20, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Guscott's Lions as of this world cup:
> 
> I5 Ben Foden (England)
> 14 George North (Wales)
> ...



Earls looked good in patches when played at wing, it's when he's lugged in centres he looks weak, but I agree we could do better. I also think Ferris is as good a 6 as I've seen, O'Brien admittedly has an excellent rampaging game, so I'm torn on that one. Blend is key there, I feel.  Agree that Heaslip has underwhelmed in the WC, but earlier in the year he was in much better form.

I also don't quite get the fuss made over North. He's a good player, and very powerful, but I've not seen him turn things the way an Ickle - or, dare I say it, an Ashton has. Of course, wing is all about getting over the whitewash and his scoring record is good, but I've only really seen him put away team tries. Not a ridiculous selection, however. I still don't really rate Phillips as a 9, but I rate him as a rugby player - especially that bit of cockiness for the big occasion. Again, it depends upon team blend, I suppose.

Fuck me, those are some powerful centres, but I'm not sure the grace or finesse is quite there. To be honest, no-one matches up to BOD, so he'll be a big loss.

Charteris has had a decent few weeks. I'm not sure that's sufficient to outweigh several years of mediocrity. And there are a few locks around the place that are worth a look.

Priestland is interesting. Not seen enough to form a strong opinion other than he's certainly going to have a good career in the game, but 10 isn't a great area for us, is it?

Warburton and O'Connell pick themselves. Grit in the tight and a proper 7. At last.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 21, 2011)

mattie said:


> Earls looked good in patches



The patches in which he wasn't defending? Agreed. Good finisher. No Lion.



> I also think Ferris is as good a 6 as I've seen, O'Brien admittedly has an excellent rampaging game, so I'm torn on that one. Blend is key there, I feel. Agree that Heaslip has underwhelmed in the WC, but earlier in the year he was in much better form.



I prefer SOB, but Ferris is also excellent - how the Irish must wish they had a decent 7 and an awesome 6 rather than two awesome sixes. Heaslip is, in my opinion, a bit of a showpony. If anybody wants to see the shift put in by a proper grafting 8 (and the best performance by any British and Irish 8 during the entire tournament) please revisit Faletau's performance against France. He performed his own role as well as that of his absent captain with massive credit - carrying, tackling, spoiling, slowing down, rucking. The lot. Faletau had the highest tackle count (74) and the lowest number of missed tackles (0) , and the most carries (74) of any player in the tournament. He will play 8 for the Lions in 2013.

Stats from here



> I also don't quite get the fuss made over North. He's a good player, and very powerful, but I've not seen him turn things the way an Ickle - or, dare I say it, an Ashton has. Of course, wing is all about getting over the whitewash and his scoring record is good, but I've only really seen him put away team tries.



Well, his strike rate is incredible. He is powerful, never loses the ball in possession, has great hands, hits the line at angles that penetrate defences again and again, and doesn't go missing in games like Ashton does. He also scores tries quietly and efficiently, rather than swallow diving like a cock against Romania. Anyway, statistically he leads the world cup for defenders beaten (23) and is third for the number of clean breaks (9), so if you don't reckon that at the age of 19 those stats are worth making a fuss about, then I'm not sure what would get you going. I would put him at 14 and Bowe to 11 in my Lions side.



> Not a ridiculous selection, however. I still don't really rate Phillips as a 9, but I rate him as a rugby player - especially that bit of cockiness for the big occasion. Again, it depends upon team blend, I suppose.



I think you need to look at the Wales games again. Phillips was fucking immense - as good as Weepu over the competition, IMO. As well as two wonderful solo tries, he was titanic defensively. No other NH scrum half will tie in your oppo defense like he will, and judging by his strike rate, that's for good reason. He buys time for his O/H like no other, and requires fewer defenders to be committed to the ruck as a result of his power. Oh, and what's this? He leads the field in passes made (380) by a galloping country mile. He would be a shoo in for the 9 berth now, and unless Youngs does something remarkable over the next 12 months, will be starting 3 more Lions tests in 2013,



> Fuck me, those are some powerful centres, but I'm not sure the grace or finesse is quite there. To be honest, no-one matches up to BOD, so he'll be a big loss.



Until Tuilagi demonstrates an ability to do anything else but run powerfully in a straight line, it has to be the greatest centre of the modern age really, doesn't it?



> Charteris has had a decent few weeks. I'm not sure that's sufficient to outweigh several years of mediocrity. And there are a few locks around the place that are worth a look.



Stats are a bastard, aren't they? 63 tackles made, 3 missed - fourth best over the WC. Until the demise of Warburton, he was plucking ball off the top for fun (21 clean takes, 3 steals - second in the tournament after AWJ), which for a Wales lineout is rather unusual. He carried, he cleared out, and he defended the gainline like a bastard. Don't forget that Charteris has only just recovered from a neck injury that has dragged on for about two and a half years. I can only go by what I saw during this competition, and that was a rejuvenated player. As I say, let's see how he does in the 6N before making further judgement (I thought he was shit for years as well).



> Priestland is interesting. Not seen enough to form a strong opinion other than he's certainly going to have a good career in the game, but 10 isn't a great area for us, is it?



He's perfect for Gatlandball. Let's see who coaches us in '13 - that will have a massive bearing on who fills the 10 berth.



> Warburton and O'Connell pick themselves. Grit in the tight and a proper 7. At last



Totally agree.


----------



## elfman (Oct 21, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Guscott's Lions as of this world cup:
> 
> I5 Ben Foden (England)
> 14 George North (Wales)
> ...



I don't think I'd have Foden in based on the WC but saying that I can't think of someone else who would replace him there... I think I'd have Ashton over Earls though.

I'm trying to think of a Scottish player to put in for a token spot but I can't think of one...


----------



## bendeus (Oct 21, 2011)

elfman said:


> I don't think I'd have Foden in based on the WC but saying that I can't think of someone else who would replace him there... I think I'd have Ashton over Earls though.
> 
> I'm trying to think of a Scottish player to put in for a token spot but I can't think of one...



A lot of people are talking up Grey. Aside from him there's nobody. Maybe Barclay and Strokosch, couple of their tight forwards for the dirt trackers?


----------



## bendeus (Oct 21, 2011)

By the way, Elfman - any predictions for the Lions tour?


----------



## elfman (Oct 21, 2011)

bendeus said:


> By the way, Elfman - any predictions for the Lions tour?


Lions will lose 3-0


----------



## bendeus (Oct 21, 2011)

Wayne Barnes has decided he wants Australia to win, then


----------



## bendeus (Oct 21, 2011)

FFS. Front row being mullered in the scrum against some fat binmen from Wagga Wagga. Errors in almost every aspect of the game, Hook kicking ball away, sitting too deep and looking clueless (again).

There's no way we can win this on current evidence, and Aus ain't all that, tbh. Don't know if it's tiredness after the France game, psychological fatigue after failing to get to the final, or the fact that we're missing Adam and Priestland massively, but we're playing like C. 6 months ago.

Ryan having a good game, mind.


----------



## Pingu (Oct 21, 2011)

pass was a tad forward there tbh


----------



## mattie (Oct 21, 2011)

Not the greatest, but some good turnover work (which, to be honest, is as much poor retention by both sides)

Forward pass, but who cares.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 21, 2011)

Aus injuries mean we should be well on top. Stupid penalties, embarrasing scrum and two ex-lions at 10, who now look like they couldn't get a game for Rhiwsaeson thirds is conspiring to make this WC go out with a whimper rather than a bang. Shame.


----------



## mattie (Oct 21, 2011)

bendeus said:


> The patches in which he wasn't defending? Agreed. Good finisher. No Lion.
> 
> I prefer SOB, but Ferris is also excellent - how the Irish must wish they had a decent 7 and an awesome 6 rather than two awesome sixes. Heaslip is, in my opinion, a bit of a showpony. If anybody wants to see the shift put in by a proper grafting 8 (and the best performance by any British and Irish 8 during the entire tournament) please revisit Faletau's performance against France. He performed his own role as well as that of his absent captain with massive credit - carrying, tackling, spoiling, slowing down, rucking. The lot. Faletau had the highest tackle count (74) and the lowest number of missed tackles (0) , and the most carries (74) of any player in the tournament. He will play 8 for the Lions in 2013.
> 
> ...



Phillips knocks on at the base of rucks. Repeatedly. I've seen him do it in practically every game, today included.  In fact one of the Welsh penalties against France was because he fumbled it and the French (Bonnaire?) saw it and piled over. The ref, however, didn't see the juggle and penalised the French. I think he's a good player, but not the best hands or pass I've seen. It depends if you include him for other virtues, or go for a 9 with more 'regular' 9 skills. Referring to Youngs (seeing as we seem to be playing top trumps), he's well off the boil, which might be a coaching issue killing his instinctive game but he looks pedestrian, being caught at scrums is not a good sign.

Please tell me what Jamie Roberts does except run hard in a straight line. And throw the ball into his OC's face when trying to offload, as he did against France.

I do rate North as decent, but I rate others higher.

I'll reserve judgement on the 'stats' until after the next 6N - when each team is up against the same opposition. I suspect some of the recent arrivals/reinventions will keep their performances up, I suspect some will drop. For England, I know Tom Croft needs to find his mojo, recent performances have been some of worst.


----------



## mattie (Oct 21, 2011)

I'm trying to catch this at work and failing - has The Ultimate Warrior come on?


----------



## gabi (Oct 21, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Aus injuries mean we should be well on top. Stupid penalties, embarrasing scrum and two ex-lions at 10, who now look like they couldn't get a game for Rhiwsaeson thirds is conspiring to make this WC go out with a whimper rather than a bang. Shame.



tbf, it must be fucking hard to get motivated for a totally meaningless game like this..

the aussies do look pretty good but the welsh clearly dont give a fuck


----------



## Pingu (Oct 21, 2011)

(un)lucky knock on there


----------



## mattie (Oct 21, 2011)

Pingu said:


> (un)lucky knock on there



Should have just dived - he tried a handoff when he was a yard from the line, with the tackler behind him.


----------



## mattie (Oct 21, 2011)

Oh well.

Am I right in saying that's no win by any NH side over any of the Tri-Nations teams?

It's all on France on Sunday.


----------



## elfman (Oct 21, 2011)

mattie said:


> Oh well.
> 
> Am I right in saying that's no win by any NH side over any of the Tri-Nations teams?
> 
> It's all on France on Sunday.


Ireland won Australia...


----------



## mattie (Oct 21, 2011)

elfman said:


> Ireland won Australia...



Of course - I was sitting here, thinking 'this doesn't sound right'.


----------



## Pingu (Oct 21, 2011)

top tip... if you are going to play then make sure you do it for more than the final 3 minutes... vastly increases the chances of winning I hear


----------



## mattie (Oct 21, 2011)

Ickle and Halfpenny with tries, seems fitting.


----------



## friedaweed (Oct 21, 2011)

Total respect to the Taffs.


----------



## 1927 (Oct 21, 2011)

Down to our woeful kicking performance AGAIN!


----------



## gabi (Oct 21, 2011)

Just seen the forward pass for the Williams try. Wow 

Barnes.


----------



## mattie (Oct 21, 2011)

1927 said:


> Down to our woeful kicking performance AGAIN!



A bit more to it than that, I feel.

But yes, Hook et al missed a few sitters. I can't belive the standard of kicking can plummet so steeply for pretty much all kickers.


----------



## 1927 (Oct 21, 2011)

mattie said:


> A bit more to it than that, I feel.
> 
> But yes, Hook et al missed a few sitters. I can't belive the standard of kicking can plummet so steeply for pretty much all kickers.



I know what you mean, but had we taken our kicks we would have won today, we would have beaten France too!


----------



## bendeus (Oct 21, 2011)

mattie said:


> Phillips knocks on at the base of rucks. Repeatedly. I've seen him do it in practically every game, today included. In fact one of the Welsh penalties against France was because he fumbled it and the French (Bonnaire?) saw it and piled over. The ref, however, didn't see the juggle and penalised the French. I think he's a good player, but not the best hands or pass I've seen. It depends if you include him for other virtues, or go for a 9 with more 'regular' 9 skills. Referring to Youngs (seeing as we seem to be playing top trumps), he's well off the boil, which might be a coaching issue killing his instinctive game but he looks pedestrian, being caught at scrums is not a good sign.



Did you see him again today? Spikey was class behind a beaten pack, and set up our first try. Based on current form Youngs is nowhere near Phillips.



> Please tell me what Jamie Roberts does except run hard in a straight line. And throw the ball into his OC's face when trying to offload, as he did against France.



Well, there's Lions player of the tournament running hard in a straight line, and lesser kinds of running hard in a straight line. Are you seriously suggesting that there's another B&I 12 who you'd pick? Flood, Hape, HRH, D'Arcy, De Luca?



> I do rate North as decent, but I rate others higher.



As you have every right to do



> I'll reserve judgement on the 'stats' until after the next 6N - when each team is up against the same opposition. I suspect some of the recent arrivals/reinventions will keep their performances up, I suspect some will drop. For England, I know Tom Croft needs to find his mojo, recent performances have been some of worst.



Again, fair enough, and I agree. Gusset's picks, and mine, are on form shown in this world cup. Let's see what the 6N brings


----------



## bendeus (Oct 21, 2011)

1927 said:


> I know what you mean, but had we taken our kicks we would have won today, we would have beaten France too!



And South Africa. Our goal completion % is far, far below international standard. It's been a fucking disgrace.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 21, 2011)

mattie said:


> A bit more to it than that, I feel.



I agree to a point. Fact remains with 50% of the missed kicks going over we'd have won it. It would have been undeserved, and it would have been ugly, but it would have been a win. For all the analysis it's kicks that have fucked Wales this tournament


----------



## bendeus (Oct 21, 2011)

gabi said:


> tbf, it must be fucking hard to get motivated for a totally meaningless game like this..
> 
> the aussies do look pretty good but the welsh clearly dont give a fuck



Yeah, it must be hard. I think, though, that this match very clearly illustrated Wales' reliance on an intelligent O/H who can play flat, a jackalling 7 and a tighthead who can shore up the scrum. Without these we look as poor as we have for the last three years. Am starting to wonder whether Wales' success has been down to luck in the sense of Priestland getting a start at 10 against England when Jones was injured, and proving himself to be a revelation.

It's no coincidence to me that our performances have dropped off considerably since he's been injured.


----------



## mattie (Oct 21, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Did you see him again today? Spikey was class behind a beaten pack, and set up our first try. Based on current form Youngs is nowhere near Phillips.
> 
> Well, there's Lions player of the tournament running hard in a straight line, and lesser kinds of running hard in a straight line. Are you seriously suggesting that there's another B&I 12 who you'd pick? Flood, Hape, HRH, D'Arcy, De Luca?
> 
> ...



Being better than a woefully off-the-pace Youngs isn't a ringing endorsement.  And, yes, good play by Phillips, but again knocking on at base of scrums and less than great service still concern me.  It's a key, critical position and I'm simply unconvinced he's actually a 9.

And I'm suggesting nothing about alternative 12s, other than you criticise Tuilagi for doing one thing and praise Roberts who does, well, precisely the same thing.  It makes discussion a bit hard to follow.  I think they're both highly effective, powerful defence and attack, but would be a horrible combination.

....unless you're thinking of a certain walking oilslick?  You little conniver you!


----------



## bendeus (Oct 21, 2011)

mattie said:


> Being better than a woefully off-the-pace Youngs isn't a ringing endorsement. And, yes, good play by Phillips, but again knocking on at base of scrums and less than great service still concern me. It's a key, critical position and I'm simply unconvinced he's actually a 9.



Youngs is yet to convince at international level full stop. Phillips has been one of the form scrum halves of the tournament, and has nothing to prove to anybody. I guess we all have blind spots regarding players, and Spikey is clearly one of yours. I'd say we'd probably have to agree to disagree here, right?



> And I'm suggesting nothing about alternative 12s, other than you criticise Tuilagi for doing one thing and praise Roberts who does, well, precisely the same thing. It makes discussion a bit hard to follow. I think they're both highly effective, powerful defence and attack, but would be a horrible combination.



I think Roberts may have brought a bit more to the tournament than Tuilagi, tbh. Singlehandedely wrecking the irish for one. If it was just about being massive and running in straight lines then Bananaman would also have been in with a shout.



> ....unless you're thinking of a certain walking oilslick? You little conniver you!


 
*whistles*


----------



## mattie (Oct 21, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Youngs is yet to convince at international level full stop. Phillips has been one of the form scrum halves of the tournament, and has nothing to prove to anybody. I guess we all have blind spots regarding players, and Spikey is clearly one of yours. I'd say we'd probably have to agree to disagree here, right?
> 
> I think Roberts may have brought a bit more to the tournament than Tuilagi, tbh. Singlehandedely wrecking the irish for one. If it was just about being massive and running in straight lines then Bananaman would also have been in with a shout.
> 
> *whistles*



Youngs was excellent on back-to-back wins against Oz - one of which was in Oz, where he scored a sniping try. Amazed you missed it, I'm sure I would have prattled on about it at length. Still, some people have blind spots. 

Sadly, the last time the team played with any real fluency, and yes, Youngs takes some of the responsibility for that.

No blind spot on Phillips, as I say I rate him as player, but surely even you notice the fumbles? I'll help you out - it's when he tries to pick it up, looks a bit confused and the ref calls a scrum with feed to the other team. It happens more than is healthy for an international 9.

Shame you missed Bath-Newport, you'd have seen Bananaman making a line break and sidestepping past 2 for a try - whilst playing at 12. Not sure I've seen Roberts do that. Still, at least he's a bit older and we can throw Lions caps about. Which, if I understand the rules, means Worsley is a better player than Warburton. I'd never have guessed.



bendeus said:


> *whistles*





It's in his hands, not many between him and a taff/Lions jersey.


----------



## elfman (Oct 21, 2011)

Do people actually rate Banahan? I think he's complete wank at international level. I don't understand how he makes it to the squad...


----------



## mattie (Oct 21, 2011)

elfman said:


> Do people actually rate Banahan? I think he's complete wank at international level. I don't understand how he makes it to the squad...



Johnson, to his credit, saw potential for Bananaman at centres, so tried him there at interantional level despite him playing at wing for club.

He now plays in centres for club, with occasional sojourns to wing, but sadly only after he'd made a few errors - positional and technical - at centres for England. Still scored a few tries and made quite a few line breaks though. Man of the Match against Argentina. A bit flat at wing, mainly because England were dross and it rarely made it out that far, and if it did it came with half the opposition team.

He got a few minutes against France and broke the line, which lead to a try a few phases on. He needs to kick on, he's played some huge games fro Bath in Europe, against top-flight opposition, but doesn't want to suffer from being seen as utility and shunted about to fill holes. He simply doesn't have the skills of a Healey for that.


----------



## mattie (Oct 21, 2011)

1927 said:


> I know what you mean, but had we taken our kicks we would have won today, we would have beaten France too!



I'd say it's easier to work on finding or coaching a kicker than it is to build a decent team.

Wales look in good shape.

As is the case for every team sans NZ, there are weaknesses and lack of depth in areas, but the key positions look to be covered off nicely - even if the only reason Phillips is at 9 is because he put his shirt on upside-down.

Here's something I wouldn't have dreamed of asking even a few months ago - does a fit Hook make the team?


----------



## elfman (Oct 21, 2011)

mattie said:


> I'd say it's easier to work on finding or coaching a kicker than it is to build a decent team.
> 
> Wales look in good shape.
> 
> ...



I think no. He can be a really good player but he makes too many wrong decisions and too many mistakes imo


----------



## mattie (Oct 21, 2011)

elfman said:


> I think no. He can be a really good player but he makes too many wrong decisions and too many mistakes imo



I agree.  I think this facet has been a key reason for recent impressive taff showings - there's been few wrong decisions made, and little sign of anyone going off-message when things get tight.


----------



## mattie (Oct 21, 2011)

Eddie Butler taking questions on guardian boards:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blo...-eddie-butler?commentpage=3#start-of-comments

Be nice to him.


----------



## flypanam (Oct 21, 2011)

mattie said:


> He simply doesn't have the skills of a Healey for that.



Or a Hartley.


----------



## mattie (Oct 21, 2011)

Weird.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 21, 2011)

mattie said:


> I agree. I think this facet has been a key reason for recent impressive taff showings - there's been few wrong decisions made, and little sign of anyone going off-message when things get tight.



I agree too. Hook is at best our third choice 15, our third choice 13, our third choice 12 and, as far as 10 goes, well, suffice to say I never want to see those numbers on his back again.

Wonderfully instinctive player, but doesn't naturally fit any position on the field, is flakey, is prone to massive brain farts and has all the game management of a demented hamster. If Henson is fit he does pretty much everything better than Hook

In retrospect Wales' campaign fell apart the moment Priestland got injured. Why he was kept on the pitch against a beaten Ireland is for Gatland to decide, I guess. I think the only lesson I have learned from this WC is that with Priestland at 10, Gatlandball works, and without him at 10, we look as clueless, one-dimensional and static as we have since 2008.

Wellies is now officially a busted flush. I think he'll retire now anyway, but even if he didn't I wouldn't particularly like to see him back at 10. It's a sad way for a wonderful, wonderful servant to end his career on a low and looking off the pace and dazed (D'Arcy take note), but there it is.

I guess then, that unless we find another O/H who can play like Priestland (Biggar, Tovey, Morgan?) we'll carry on frustrating and tantalising in equal measure if he isn't on the pitch. It will also tell the oppo exactly who to focus their attentions on - neutralise Priestland and you neutralise Wales.

Anyway. Gats promising a shake up both on the pitch and in the backroom. I reckon Byrne, Wellies and Shane (bar his swansong in December) won't be playing for Wales again. I also think it's time Howley, McBryde and, dare I say it, Jenkins, moved on.

We've certainly got the staff to make a big impact over the next four years, but we sure as hell need to use them right.


----------



## elfman (Oct 21, 2011)

brain farts 

That just made me laugh so much for some reason!


----------



## bendeus (Oct 21, 2011)

elfman said:


> brain farts
> 
> That just made me laugh so much for some reason!



Hook is brain flatulent. He's got cerebral IBS, FFS


----------



## flypanam (Oct 21, 2011)

Looking at page one and looking at page 49 I like the way you believe again bendy, 4th I'd take that.

The way you feel about hook is the way I feel about Fitzgerald, during the warm up he was our only player who attacked the ball from deep and made scoring chances especially against the French, but the rest of his game from defense to even simple positional sense is infuriating.

Hows does a coach deal with talent that is unable to flourish?

eta: Mattie I know. It's well weird. Bannaman.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 21, 2011)

flypanam said:


> Looking at page one and looking at page 49 I like the way you believe again bendy, 4th I'd take that.



So would I, but I can't help but feeling a bit, y'know, flat. When it comes to it, we only beat Ireland. I mean no offence by that, but you're a team we've shared honours with since 2008, and one very close to us in the IRB rankings. When we've had the chance to win against the tier one nations, and let's be honest, we were a total of eight fucking points from beating SA, Aus and France, we blew it. We blew it due to poor kicking, yes, but I worry that this reflects the age-old Welsh woe of psychological frailty - lacking the self-belief and confidence to put games to bed.

I dunno. I guess I've learned that we are capable of some wonderful rugby, that we have great young and seasoned old players, and that we are fit as fuck. I have also learned that we are still flakey and prone to the same old errors, and that we are worryingly reliant on a couple of key players to make things tick.



> Hows does a coach deal with talent that is unable to flourish?



Dunno. Maybe France will help Hook's game. I wonder is it that he is incapable of playing in _any _system or whether it's just Gatland's system (although evidence from his spell at 10 for the Os is not encouraging). Perp have paid £1.4m for his services - there must have been Gallic facepalms a-go-go in the boardroom after seeing his latest two car crashes.


----------



## flypanam (Oct 21, 2011)

Have  agood final everyone. get smashed. The Boy and gabi I wanna see blood.


----------



## gabi (Oct 21, 2011)

flypanam said:


> Have agood final everyone. get smashed. The Boy and gabi I wanna see blood.



im getting mashed at an old school late 90s style party with the likes of danny rampling and brandon block and i intend to take in the rugger at 9am directly from that. i think i'll be too loved up to give anyone any grief on here.

i hope it's a decent match tho.

interesting little story here about how random the playmakers are tomorrow - not sure anyone would've called cruden v parra at the start...

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/5831415/Rival-first-fives-vie-for-greatness-in-RWC-final


----------



## mattie (Oct 21, 2011)

Oof.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Oct 21, 2011)

gabi said:


> im getting mashed at an old school late 90s style party with the likes of danny rampling and brandon block and i intend to take in the rugger at 9am directly from that. i think i'll be too loved up to give anyone any grief on here.
> 
> i hope it's a decent match tho.
> 
> ...


The match is on sunday, no?


----------



## bendeus (Oct 21, 2011)

mattie said:


> Oof.



Should've seen a card that. I expect a citing


----------



## gabi (Oct 22, 2011)

sleaterkinney said:


> The match is on sunday, no?



Yep. Party's tonight though.


----------



## gabi (Oct 22, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Should've seen a card that. I expect a citing



Nowt wrong with that. Not good to see the little fella smashed like that but perfectly legal.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 22, 2011)

gabi said:


> Nowt wrong with that. Not good to see the little fella smashed like that but perfectly legal.



What's legal about it?


----------



## mattie (Oct 22, 2011)

bendeus said:


> What's legal about it?



I know.  A disgraceful kick to the fat fella's head.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 22, 2011)

mattie said:


> I know. A disgraceful kick to the fat fella's head.



 ....the vicious little shit.

Gabi:




			
				IRB said:
			
		

> (g) *Dangerous charging.* A player must not charge or knock down an opponent carrying the ball without trying to grasp that player.



Neither player attempted to use their arms


----------



## mattie (Oct 22, 2011)

I think their defence would be it was a charge-down and not a tackle.


----------



## mattie (Oct 22, 2011)

And so it begins:

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,3818_7257839,00.html

Bring it on.


----------



## The Boy (Oct 22, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Neither player attempted to use their arms



Is th crux of the matter afaic.  Watching for the first time it looked like something out of the NFL.  Which, incidentally, I have also noticed happening more - people throwing themselves low at the ball carrier's legs with no attempt to use their arms.


----------



## gabi (Oct 22, 2011)

bendeus said:


> ....the vicious little shit.
> 
> Gabi:
> 
> Neither player attempted to use their arms



It was an attempted charge down.

Nothing wrong with it. Just a spectacular incident.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 22, 2011)

mattie said:


> I think their defence would be it was a charge-down and not a tackle.



No doubt. They clearly played the man, though, so it ain't much defence


----------



## bendeus (Oct 22, 2011)

gabi said:


> It was an attempted charge down.
> 
> Nothing wrong with it. Just a spectacular incident.



Rubbish.


----------



## gabi (Oct 22, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Rubbish.





If you guys knew the rules, you'd be in the final..


----------



## bendeus (Oct 22, 2011)

Looking at it again, Pocock has no excuse whatsoever - to describe that as an 'attempted charge down' is farcical. The 6, possibly, but I note that he doesn't lead with his hands as you would if you were attempting a charge down, he leads with his shoulder.

Should have been a card for both, and should still be a citing.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 22, 2011)

gabi said:


> If you guys knew the rules, you'd be in the final..



I've just pasted the rules, numbnuts.


----------



## The Boy (Oct 23, 2011)

I'm off to work as soon as the game is finished so won't be back here until tomorrow.

My prediction is....

France by 10+ 

And if that happens, I might even keep a Lievremont moustache for the whole of November.


----------



## Gingerman (Oct 23, 2011)

The Boy said:


> I'm off to work as soon as the game is finished so won't be back here until tomorrow.
> 
> My prediction is....
> 
> France by 10+


Hope the French make a game of it,no-one wants to see a NZ cakewalk


----------



## rekil (Oct 23, 2011)

Just walked over the line, nobody touched him.  "Pff, a'hm french, ah do not want to get involved."


----------



## sleaterkinney (Oct 23, 2011)

The ref is a joke


----------



## 1927 (Oct 23, 2011)

sleaterkinney said:


> The ref is a joke



Explain!


----------



## 1927 (Oct 23, 2011)

Gingerman said:


> Hope the French make a game of it,no-one wants to see a NZ cakewalk



I'm in two minds. As unjust as their place in the final is I'd like to see NZ choke yet again and get beat. If that isnt gonna hapopen I'd like France to get torn a new one.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Oct 23, 2011)

NZ are getting away with hell at the breakdown. He's a homer.


----------



## 1927 (Oct 23, 2011)

sleaterkinney said:


> NZ are getting away with hell at the breakdown. He's a homer.



Well nice to see he is refereeing the dangerous tackles harshly. not!


----------



## gabi (Oct 23, 2011)

Wobbly


----------



## mrs quoad (Oct 23, 2011)

Oof!


----------



## mrs quoad (Oct 23, 2011)

Surprised by how close this is!


----------



## sleaterkinney (Oct 23, 2011)

Really tight game, small margins. France should have won that.


----------



## marty21 (Oct 23, 2011)

that was tense!


----------



## Belushi (Oct 23, 2011)

Well done All Blacks.


----------



## The Boy (Oct 23, 2011)

Having listened to people giving the French team stick for struggling against a Wales team that was a man down, it was refreshing to see them play so well against a NZ team that was man up.

Still, at least I don't have to sport an awful moustache for a month .

Edit:  And can I be the first to say it:  NZ can only win at home.  Lol.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Oct 23, 2011)

The kiwi's look so chuffed.


----------



## Gingerman (Oct 23, 2011)

Unlucky Froggies,thought we were in for one of the great sporting shocks of all time


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 23, 2011)

Wow. France really should have won that. NZ are a _*little*_ self-obsessed at the end. Interviews with captain and coach and not a single word about their opponents. Bit bad form, that.


----------



## Gingerman (Oct 23, 2011)

France v New Zealand

55%	Possession	45%
55%	Territory	45%
6'35''	Actual Time In Opponents 22	4'34''
Interesting stats


----------



## gabi (Oct 23, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Wow. France really should have won that. NZ are a _*little*_ self-obsessed at the end. Interviews with captain and coach and not a single word about their opponents. Bit bad form, that.



You're watching ITV.

NZ coverage was totally different. Commentators there saying France deserved to win


----------



## Gingerman (Oct 23, 2011)

Just seen Weepu being interviewed,fuck me he's got a massive arse on him.


----------



## gabi (Oct 23, 2011)

Gingerman said:


> Just seem Weepu being interviewed,fuck me he's got a massive arse on him.



Phwoaar??


----------



## Gingerman (Oct 23, 2011)

Why didn't ITV have any ex- French player on their studio panel?


----------



## treefrog (Oct 23, 2011)

Just home from the post-match shindig, Auckland's a very happy wee city tonight. Place is buzzing.


----------



## Infidel Castro (Oct 23, 2011)

bendeus said:


> I think the thing that a lot of people forget about the '70s is that the scintillating backplay was built on an extremely powerful forward platform and a relatively mean defence rather than being the summation of what Wales were all about. Prior to that I'm not too certain. I think Wales have always been a flair side FWIW.
> 
> 2005 was built on an incredibly mobile pack of forwards, the ability to force and use turnover ball and a high-risk brand of running rugby.
> 
> ...



I know I'm weeks behind, but my old man is always at pains to say that Wales used to stay in touch with the opposition in the 70's and then finish teams off with superior fitness and skill.  He recalls that they rarely ran away with games early on, but were always there or thereabouts.  After that, they'd apply the finishing touches.  I'd liken what the current Welsh set-up has achieved to just that sort of style, albeit not quite so overtly exciting, which is no surprise given the way space on the pitch has been closed down by defence, tactics, professionalism and athleticism/gigantism.

Some of Wales' best stuff was based around Grav and Fenwick in the centres back then.  Chuck in Merv and a very physical/athletic scrum-half and a very good front-row, that 70's team is like a forerunner of this current crop.  For Merv I'm seeing Toby F by the way, and the front-row speaks for itself if Geth, Adam and Matt Rees are involved (though Bennett has stepped up amazingly - still shocked by that).  The centres today are similar in style to that second great Welsh team of the 70's, and a good 10 is key to get them moving.  Got to throw in a similarity between North and J Bevan by the way. My old man purrs about Bevan and compares the two favourably.

Anyway, what I'm saying is that we're not that different now to how we were then.  Fitness was always a forte, as was a certain cunning in execution.  Nice to see some similarities cropping up in the RWC.  It's been a pleasure.  Still gutted we bowed out with a couple of losses, but 5pts losing margin in 3 games shows where this team is heading for one so young.

A dose of reality though - losing 3 key players did for us v Aus, and that depth we talk of might yet be a bit shallower than we'd like.

The future:  Scott Williams in the centres - wicked hands.  Priestland to carry on at 10.  Brynmor's boy to grow into the 9 shirt over the next few years - excellent service, great speed, rapid mover.  Back-row to remain as an unit (but see below (*)).  Locks to battle it out for supremacy.  'Penny to keep running as full-back.  Henson to come back in humble fashion and apply pressure.  Roberts to never slip back again.  North to become ridiculously famous.  A winger to take over from Ickle, but not 'Penny as he needs to stay at FB.  Matt Morgan to stake a claim for the O's and Wales.  *Ben Morgan to pressure Faletau and bring out even more from him.  What a situation that'd be to have both on hand to play.  Before that though, Ben Morgan to actually decide to play for Wales .

Also, a new front row being groomed ready to take over.

I'd settle for all of the above.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 23, 2011)

sleaterkinney said:


> The ref is a joke



Didn't see the game this morning. Was he as bad as some are making out? Sounds like a 100% homer performance...


----------



## mattie (Oct 23, 2011)

Even Dayglo expressed some surprise with a number of the calls.


----------



## starfish (Oct 23, 2011)

Game wasnt a classic but i suppose on the whole New Zealand are, finally, worthy winners, again.


----------



## elfman (Oct 24, 2011)

NZ deserved to win the competition overall but I thought France were the better team in the match and would of loved to see them upset NZ.


----------



## mattie (Oct 24, 2011)

Very gracious.

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,16024_7261717,00.html


----------



## treefrog (Oct 24, 2011)

That's ace.


----------



## flypanam (Oct 24, 2011)

The Boy said:


> Edit: And can I be the first to say it: NZ can only win at home. Lol.



Good one.


----------



## gabi (Oct 24, 2011)

mattie said:


> Very gracious.
> 
> http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,16024_7261717,00.html



I'm assuming the IRB will look at this 'gracious' comment with interest



> The France scrum-half Dimitri Yachvili was however prepared to go a step further.
> 
> "The referee was under a lot of pressure," he said.
> 
> "He did not want us to win.


----------



## mattie (Oct 24, 2011)

gabi said:


> I'm assuming the IRB will look at this 'gracious' comment with interest



I'm assuming they won't.


----------



## mattie (Oct 24, 2011)

sleaterkinney said:


> The ref is a joke



A bit discussion about it here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XBqetaCfgo&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL


----------



## gabi (Oct 24, 2011)

Sour grapes from an aussie and a paddy.

I thought Joubert had a fairly good game myself.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 24, 2011)

So, two of the three games between the semis and final were decided by refereeing decisions (or indecisions). Pretty poor showing from Paddy O'Brien's boys really, isn't it?​


----------



## mattie (Oct 24, 2011)

bendeus said:


> So, two of the three games between the semis and final were decided by refereeing decisions (or indecisions). Pretty poor showing from Paddy O'Brien's boys really, isn't it?​





This could run.


----------



## mattie (Oct 24, 2011)

gabi said:


> Sour grapes from an aussie and a paddy.
> 
> *I thought Joubert had a fairly good game myself*.





Credit to you, gabi mate, you've been bloody good value this World Cup.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Oct 24, 2011)

that was one of the most one-sided referee displays that i've ever seen. of course, you expect the home side to get some favourable decisions but even i could see that, in the first half in particular, everything was being given to the kiwis. pretty turgid game really, how a wc final can see the last 5 minutes effectively decided by a succession of rucks/mauls/lot-of-fat-lads-standing-looking-at-each-other is beyond me. france unlucky but well done to the kiwis.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 24, 2011)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> that was one of the most one-sided referee displays that i've ever seen. of course, you expect the home side to get some favourable decisions but even i could see that, in the first half in particular, everything was being given to the kiwis. pretty turgid game really, how a wc final can see the last 5 minutes effectively *decided by a succession of rucks/mauls/lot-of-fat-lads-standing-looking-at-each-other is beyond me*. france unlucky but well done to the kiwis.



Epic


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Oct 24, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Epic


i really am trying, honest


----------



## bendeus (Oct 24, 2011)

mattie said:


> This could run.



Actually, there's more to it, isn't there? One of the four QFs (Bryce Lawrence in SA-Aus), one of the two semis (Rolland for Wales-Fra) and the final could be argued to have been decided far more by the decision-making of the match official rather than the efforts of the teams on the pitch.

That is really very worrying in terms of the reputation and growth of the game. If the rules are so complex and open to interpretation that each game is dependent on the whims or blind spots of the bloke in black, then we've got some serious issues to be addressed. Due to its complexity I can't think of a team sport in which the match officials have so great an impact on outcomes. The clear areas where the officials appear out of their depth are the scrum and the breakdown. The tackle is also, for obvious reasons, under a lot of scrutiny.

The IRB is really doing its best to fuck rugby up good and proper, IMO.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 24, 2011)

That's interesting. I've always thought of football as the game referees fuck up the most. But yeah, in any given game of rugby the ref's bound to miss some penalty infringements, however good he is.

Usually in rugby, the better team on the day does win, though, doesn't it? That's usually been my impression. This w/c seems a bit exceptional in that regard.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Oct 24, 2011)

you can tell that there were problems, simply because on numerous occasions, the commentator and pundit didn't have a clue what was happening in terms of why decisions were being made. now putting aside any humour about "that's what they get paid for", i was suprised to see how confused it all was. in league, they use a system of hand signals to signify why a decision has been made, which would be a start.


----------



## mattie (Oct 24, 2011)

Players play referees.  It always has happened and always will happen.  Richie McCaw will hold on in a tackle that split-second longer and claim he's trapped under the ruck - conveniently with his legs all over the ball.  Every backrower going will prop themselves up on someone in the ruck and claim they're on their feet.  Refs get it wrong because players don't tend to make their indiscretions that obvious at pitch-level.

If I was ref I'd be one for 'reducers', spend five minutes pinging everyone for everything until they get the bloody message.

The Warburton incident is a totally different bag to the ref not being that sharp at breakdowns.  He obviously committed an offence, was correctly pinged, and arguments are made over whether that should have been red or yellow.  If he doesn't commit the offence - despite my sympathy for something I see as a tackle badly executed than anything malicious, it's his own doing - there's no decision to be made.  If we're aiming for judicial sympathy around an infringement with serious safety implications, I'd say we'll be waiting a very, very long time.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 24, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> That's interesting. I've always thought of football as the game referees fuck up the most. But yeah, in any given game of rugby the ref's bound to miss some penalty infringements, however good he is.
> 
> Usually in rugby, the better team on the day does win, though, doesn't it? That's usually been my impression. This w/c seems a bit exceptional in that regard.



I think the breakdown and scrums are the key. Cheating at the scrum allows inferior scrummaging sides to get out of jail free, as refs have a tendency to award penalties for collapsed scrums to each side in turn due to their being unable to work out who is doing what.

Time and time again I have seen sides win games they never should have by consistent and cynical infringement at the breakdown. Referees seemingly ref this aspect of the game (perhaps the most critical of them all, particularly when you think about how teams like the ABs, Aus,  and latterly even Wales, play) entirely dependent on their mood. A team will quickly get the feel for what a ref is going to allow and what they've (seemingly arbitrarily) decided they're going to 'be tough' on that day, and will play accordingly. Whether this is consistenly going in off their feet (Samoa-Wales), constant hands on the deck or going in at the side (Pocock vs. SA), tacklers falling on the wrong side and failing to release (Aus vs. Wales), or sealing off, a more cynical team will read and exploit the blind spot. If their opposition do not read this as quickly, and do not cheat accordingly, then the likelihood is that they'll lose.

What Joubert is alleged to have done is even worse - seemingly deciding not only what offences he was going to get tough on, but also which team he was going to get tough on those offences for. That's pretty egregious, and Bryce Lawrence can be accused of the same in the q/f.

Funny how so many of the poor or controversial reffing performances either directly or indirectly favoured the host nation, isn't it?


----------



## mattie (Oct 24, 2011)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> you can tell that there were problems, simply because on numerous occasions, the commentator and pundit didn't have a clue what was happening in terms of why decisions were being made. now putting aside any humour about "that's what they get paid for", i was suprised to see how confused it all was. in league, they use a system of hand signals to signify why a decision has been made, which would be a start.



Dayglo was confused as he was trying to see the reasoning, he knew what the calls were.  He agreed with precious few of them.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 24, 2011)

mattie said:


> The Warburton incident is a totally different bag to the ref not being that sharp at breakdowns. He obviously committed an offence, was correctly pinged, and arguments are made over whether that should have been red or yellow. If he doesn't commit the offence - despite my sympathy for something I see as a tackle badly executed than anything malicious, it's his own doing - there's no decision to be made. If we're aiming for judicial sympathy around an infringement with serious safety implications, I'd say we'll be waiting a very, very long time.



You'll get no disagreement from me here. My only beef is that he was the first in the entire tournament to receive censure of the magnitude of what Rolland dished out, and that other tackles that could have been argued to have been just as dangerous escaped without even a penalty being awarded.

It was the IRB's own intransigence that totally removed the possibility for there being any interpretation or extenuation from the referee's options. I feel that this is a big mistake.


----------



## flypanam (Oct 24, 2011)

In all fairness Lol and the commentator can in no way be described as a 'Brains trust.'

I don't think the ref was amazing but if France have a complaint they should look to themselves, they had ample possession and plenty of territory they could have easily set up an opportunity fro a drop goal.

Once again the difference between N and S hempishere rugby lies in the ability to keep cool heads. NZ produced some turgid stuff but their constant picking and driving did secure them a much needed respite from the French attack.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 24, 2011)

flypanam said:


> In all fairness Lol and the commentator can in no way be described as a 'Brains trust.'



A good number of the match reports I've read have been very critical of Joubert. People like Eddie Butler, whose opinion I have a fair amount of time for, have been fairly critical.


----------



## mattie (Oct 24, 2011)

bendeus said:


> I think the breakdown and scrums are the key. Cheating at the scrum allows inferior scrummaging sides to get out of jail free, as refs have a tendency to award penalties for collapsed scrums to each side in turn due to their being unable to work out who is doing what.



Either the touch judges need to step up and officiate the 'blind' side of the scrum or we need specialist scrum assistant refs.

We just can't have the current farce.

Most of the problems come the hit, namely the collapse/stand/burrowing in for non-straight hits and the difficulty in getting a bind as your shoulders are being smacked into by getting on for a ton of opposing forwards. How the ref is supposed to objectively make a decision in such circumstances is beyond me, especially as he can only be on one side. Let the front row get a bind, and go from there. And make the wearing of hard-to-grip shirts a penalty offence - if that's the cause of a bind slipping, it's the cause of a bind slipping. Penalise it accordingly, so we can get on with the game.


----------



## mattie (Oct 24, 2011)

flypanam said:


> In all fairness Lol and the commentator can in no way be described as a 'Brains trust.'
> 
> I don't think the ref was amazing but if France have a complaint they should look to themselves, they had ample possession and plenty of territory they could have easily set up an opportunity fro a drop goal.
> 
> Once again the difference between N and S hempishere rugby lies in the ability to keep cool heads. NZ produced some turgid stuff but their constant picking and driving did secure them a much needed respite from the French attack.



I agreed with pretty much everything Dayglo had to say.

Which perhaps backs your point up


----------



## mattie (Oct 24, 2011)

Dusautoir named IRB player of the year, btw.

Sound choice.  Superb player, and carries himself well.


----------



## flypanam (Oct 24, 2011)

bendeus said:


> A good number of the match reports I've read have been very critical of Joubert. People like Eddie Butler, whose opinion I have a fair amount of time for, have been fairly critical.



I'm not saying he was great. I think it's standard that the refs will talk to the coach and captain a couple of hours before the game to tell them what they will be focusing on. So teams at least have a heads up going into the game. The problems with refs is that are human, and actually half the fun of rugby is the arbitary nature of some of the calls, some go your way some don't. All that talk about replay technology is arse and will slow down the game.

Foe me Steve Walsh committed the biggest refereeing fuck up this world cup by asking the TMO if a the final pass before a try was forward. We can go on about Joubert, Rolland and Owens but Walsh created a new fucking rule straight out League.

If I was Joubert I'd have given NZ the fucking game, a. France didn't deserve to be there. b. the Rugby 'loving' NZ fans have got previous.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 24, 2011)

mattie said:


> Either the touch judges need to step up and officiate the 'blind' side of the scrum or we need specialist scrum assistant refs.



It really should be that simple, shouldn't it?



> We just can't have the current farce.



No. It is destroying the game. Danger in dealing with it is throwing the baby out with the bathwater and turning the scrum into such an irrelevance that you can just pick a bunch of muscly roider types instead of props.



> Most of the problems come the hit, namely the collapse/stand/burrowing in for non-straight hits and the difficulty in getting a bind as your shoulders are being smacked into by getting on for a ton of opposing forwards. How the ref is supposed to objectively make a decision in such circumstances is beyond me, especially as he can only be on one side. Let the front row get a bind, and go from there. And make the wearing of hard-to-grip shirts a penalty offence - if that's the cause of a bind slipping, it's the cause of a bind slipping. Penalise it accordingly, so we can get on with the game.



Absolutely. Thing is, it seems that a scrum is currently won in the hit - a fractional element with tiny margins. If a prop knows they've lost the hit, which they apparently do immediately, they can usually fold like a cheap suit in the safe knowledge they only have a small chance of being pinged for it, which gives the chance for a reset and a new possibility of the ref tombola awarding a decision the opposite way.

I remember a few years ago when we played Ireland at the MS. Had an attacking scrum on the Irish 22. They folded twice - both reset, and then Hayes engineered an extremely unlikely get-out-of-jail by boring in. Basically, they lost the hit twice with no censure, then cheated in the third, and sure enough, third time lucky - penalty Ireland. Spitting fucking feathers, I was


----------



## flypanam (Oct 24, 2011)

mattie said:


> Dusautoir named IRB player of the year, btw.
> 
> Sound choice. Superb player, and carries himself well.



Agreed.


----------



## flypanam (Oct 24, 2011)

bendeus said:


> I remember a few years ago when we played Ireland at the MS. Had an attacking scrum on the Irish 22. They folded twice - both reset, and then Hayes engineered an extremely unlikely get-out-of-jail by boring in. Basically, they lost the hit twice with no censure, then cheated in the third, and sure enough, third time lucky - penalty Ireland. Spitting fucking feathers, I was



Love it


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Oct 24, 2011)

flypanam said:


> I'm not saying he was great. I think it's standard that the refs will talk to the coach and captain a couple of hours before the game to tell them what they will be focusing on. So teams at least have a heads up going into the game. The problems with refs is that are human, and actually half the fun of rugby is the arbitary nature of some of the calls, some go your way some don't. All that talk about replay technology is arse and will slow down the game.
> 
> Foe me Steve Walsh committed the biggest refereeing fuck up this world cup by asking the TMO if a the final pass before a try was forward. We can go on about Joubert, Rolland and Owens but *Walsh created a new fucking rule straight out League.*
> 
> If I was Joubert I'd have given NZ the fucking game, a. France didn't deserve to be there. b. the Rugby 'loving' NZ fans have got previous.


he didn't you know, league refs can't ask video ref to rule on forward passes under any circumstances.


----------



## mattie (Oct 24, 2011)

mattie said:


> Dusautoir named IRB player of the year, btw.
> 
> Sound choice. Superb player, and carries himself well.



Quoting myself, I should also point out that young George Ford won the IRB junior player of the year. He made his Leicester debut at the age of 16 years and 237 days.

Looking back of photos of me at that age, I'd have been folded in half and eaten for breakfast.

Nowadays, I'd give a prop at least 3 square meals.


----------



## flypanam (Oct 24, 2011)

I stand corrected, I thought they could. Well that makes it e=ven more worrying as he's started 'Free thinking.'


----------



## bendeus (Oct 24, 2011)

flypanam said:


> I'm not saying he was great. I think it's standard that the refs will talk to the coach and captain a couple of hours before the game to tell them what they will be focusing on. So teams at least have a heads up going into the game. The problems with refs is that are human, and actually half the fun of rugby is the arbitary nature of some of the calls, some go your way some don't. All that talk about replay technology is arse and will slow down the game.



I agree to a point, but for me when three of the seven matches between quarters and finals were decided by refs and their interpretations of the law (or wilful blindness as to who is infringing), then I'd say we had a problem.



> Foe me Steve Walsh committed the biggest refereeing fuck up this world cup by asking the TMO if a the final pass before a try was forward. We can go on about Joubert, Rolland and Owens but Walsh created a new fucking rule straight out League.



Walsh is a fucking clown. He may have handed his exploding car and squirty flower to his compatriot, Bryce Lawrence, for the Clown-of-Clowns trophy, mind. Funny how NZ produce the best players and coaches, but the most pitiful refs, isn't it?



> If I was Joubert I'd have given NZ the fucking game, a. France didn't deserve to be there. b. the Rugby 'loving' NZ fans have got previous.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 24, 2011)

flypanam said:


> I stand corrected, I thought they could. Well that makes it e=ven more worrying as he's started 'Free thinking.'


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Oct 24, 2011)

bendeus said:


>


he was replying to my post about forward passes and video refs


----------



## flypanam (Oct 24, 2011)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> he was replying to my post about forward passes and video refs



I was.

Isn't Walsh now an Aussie?


----------



## bendeus (Oct 24, 2011)

flypanam said:


> Love it



I've never fully recovered


----------



## mattie (Oct 24, 2011)

flypanam said:


> I was.
> 
> Isn't Walsh now an Aussie?



For his sins.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 24, 2011)

flypanam said:


> I was.
> 
> Isn't Walsh now an Aussie?



Ah, sry.

Walsh has been 'adopted' by the ARFU, yes.


----------



## Red Faction (Oct 24, 2011)

During the match I actually started rooting for France- they played the most entertaining rugby
Funnily enough the only match this tournament they actually bothered to turn up to, and ended the scrum half/fly half joke
Looked a very decent team once Trinh Duc came on.

At the time, I thought perhaps there was a chance I was being a bit one- eyed, spitting about the ref.
 Having watched it again, it is shameful.

Credit to New Zealand, congratulations on winning the world cup.
Couldn't have done it without 16 men...


----------



## mattie (Oct 25, 2011)

Uh oh.

http://tvnz.co.nz/rugby-world-cup/video-mccaw-eye-gouged-4483609

Tell me it wasn't Dusautoir.


----------



## gabi (Oct 25, 2011)

Citing period's over... McCaw's leavin it, which is fair enough.

Amusingly though, in a development seemingly pitched directly at bendeus, the french have been fined for encroaching on the haka..


----------



## gabi (Oct 25, 2011)

fuckin lol. that's a shocker.



> The decision by France to line up in a V formation and advance towards the New Zealand haka before Sunday's Rugby World Cup final has proven to be a costly one.
> 
> The French team has been fined £2500 ($4900) because *its action breaches an International Rugby Board regulation on how the haka should be faced*, introduced after previous confrontations.
> 
> As the New Zealand team performed the ceremonial haka, known as Kapa O Pango, the French linked arms and formed a V formation, then fanned out as they marched from the 10-metre line towards halfway.


----------



## flypanam (Oct 25, 2011)

gabi said:


> fuckin lol. that's a shocker.



Which is bullshit and you know it. When Willie Anderson led the Ireland team to 2-3 inches from the AB haka and stared down Buck Shelford, Shelford response was that Anderson had done the right thing. I'm sure the elders are happy to see opposing teams face down the Haka.

However your paka mob have no culture of your own so have to sanitise and sanctify a genuinely important Maori tradition so we end up with a choregraphed dance routine and a lot of whites bleating.


----------



## gabi (Oct 25, 2011)

flypanam said:


> Which is bullshit and you know it. When Willie Anderson led the Ireland team to 2-3 inches from the AB haka and stared down Buck Shelford, Shelford response was that Anderson had done the right thing. I'm sure the elders are happy to see opposing teams face down the Haka.
> 
> However your paka mob have no culture of your own so have to sanitise and sanctify a genuinely important Maori tradition so we end up with a choregraphed dance routine and a lot of whites bleating.



Er, 'paka'?

fwiw, i agree it's absurd they've been fined. that's the IRB though, not the NZRU who I doubt would have any complaint


----------



## The Octagon (Oct 25, 2011)

Has anyone got a link to the regulation mentioned above? I found the index of IRB laws / regulations but it's a mammoth series of links.

What if the opposing team decided to bugger off and practice their line out / kicking while the All Blacks danced?

Ridiculous.


----------



## gabi (Oct 25, 2011)

i think the rule is they have to stay in their own half. which is fucking stupid. the best hakas are the ones which are challenged.


----------



## gabi (Oct 25, 2011)

> An IRB spokesman said teams knew they must not breach a 10 metre gap, which had been reduced from 20 metres a year ago.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## bendeus (Oct 25, 2011)

gabi said:


> fuckin lol. that's a shocker.



Unbefuckinglievable. Just fucking unbefuckinglievable.

"Don't fuck with the haka, bro, or we'll git the IRB on you!"


----------



## 1927 (Oct 25, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Unbefuckinglievable. Just fucking unbefuckinglievable.
> 
> "Don't fuck with the haka, bro, or we'll git the IRB on you!"



Not quite as unfucking believable as the fact that Wales are down to 8th in the rankings, 3 places behing England. We have actually ben penalised for getting to the semi fianls and losing a game, and then penaiised again for losing the 3rd place play-off, so by getting further and playing more games which we then lost we are not as good as England who went our earlier.

How can it be possible to be a worse team for getting further in the competition? Can anyone who can put up a logical argument for this state of affairs?


----------



## The Octagon (Oct 25, 2011)

Well, technically England and Wales both won the same number of games, except you had the record of - played 2, lost 2 afterwards.

But I agree it looks silly.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 25, 2011)

1927 said:


> Can anyone who can put up a logical argument for this state of affairs?



The IRB?


----------



## 1927 (Oct 25, 2011)

bendeus said:


> The IRB?



I'd like to see them try.

Similar happened a couple of seasons gao, Cardiff Blues failed to make quarters of \heineken cup so went into the Amlin Cup, while the Os continued in the main comp. Blues won Amlin and gained points fro winning that towards seeding for the H cup, a cup that they could only enter because they werent as good as the Os. fucking ridiculous!

The RWC as the top competition in the sport should come before any other rmethod for calculating the rankings.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 25, 2011)

1927 said:


> I'd like to see them try.



I kind of meant that the IRB are the 'logical' reason for this state of affairs, i.e. that they are a bunch of process-obsessed bureaucratic fuckwits who are busy turning the game into something that it shouldn't be with their constant meddling, myopia and plain idiocy. That they have created a rankings system that disincentivises teams from reaching the semi-finals of the world cup is entirely in keeping with the way they operate.

E2A: The RWC _is _prioritised insomuch as victories earn double what they would in other competitions


----------



## sleaterkinney (Oct 25, 2011)

gabi said:


> fuckin lol. that's a shocker.


It's a disgrace, the french should refuse to pay that fine.


----------



## The Boy (Oct 25, 2011)

To be honest, i can understand why the IRB are so protective of the Haka - it's the only time that Richie McCaw stays onside.


----------



## tiki (Oct 26, 2011)

It's not just for the haka. The line rule stands for any game.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 26, 2011)

tiki said:


> It's not just for the haka. The line rule stands for any game.



Wrong:




> THE Wallabies have been warned that disrespecting the All Blacks' haka could result in a fine from the International Rugby Board.





> *The ARU was recently forced to pay a £1000 ($1677) fine to Rugby World Cup Limited after the Wallaroos, Australia's women's rugby team, advanced on the Black Ferns mid-haka before their World Cup pool match in England last month.*
> 
> Shortly after the match, won by New Zealand 32-5, the ARU received a letter from the Women's World Cup tournament director, based at the IRB headquarters in Dublin, explaining that the conduct of the Wallaroos was in breach of tournament rules.
> 
> ...




http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-union/u...nks-before-bledisloe-test-20100909-153c9.html

The ten metres referred to there has now been extended to 20. This is outrageous. Utterly fucking outrageous.


----------



## tiki (Oct 26, 2011)

Yes. It's truly dreadful.


----------



## treefrog (Oct 26, 2011)

Total arse, I think you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone here who thought the French response was anything less than brilliant. The IRB seem to have left the real world entirely...


----------



## bendeus (Oct 26, 2011)

treefrog said:


> The IRB seem to have left the real world entirely...



Yup. Three knockout stage games decided by refs, one semi-finalist going backwards in the rankings, and a finalist fined for daring to respond to a clear psychological advantage accorded to a participating team.

They're a fucking joke, and they're killing the game.


----------



## The Boy (Oct 26, 2011)

On a serious note, it is ridiculous that the IRB have legislated the 'correct' fashion in which to face the haka.  If it' gives the NZers a psychological boost (which their behaviour in the Wales centenary game would suggest it does) then their opponents deserve the opportunity for the same - provided it doesn't lead to a brawl.  If the haka is a challenge, then the team facing it has the right to a gesture to show the challenge is accepted.

If the haka is simply sporting theatre, then the opposing teams reaction is also nothing more than theatre.  I doubt many will forget the way France faced the haka this time around or 2007.  Nor will they forget Wales standing their ground at the MillStad.  Sporting theatre, no harm done.

Alternatively, we could go back to the NZers performing the haka to the crowd?  Problem solved, and it was the tradition until relatively recently anyway.


----------



## elfman (Oct 26, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Yup. Three knockout stage games decided by refs, one semi-finalist going backwards in the rankings, and a finalist fined for daring to respond to a clear psychological advantage accorded to a participating team.
> 
> They're a fucking joke, and they're killing the game.



From my experience all the rugby boards are like this from the IRB, RFU and Yorkshire RFU. Dealing with things at grassroots level (when I was a kids coach and a player) is a joke sometimes because its like the people making the rules have no understanding of the real situation on the ground. There needs to massive changes in rugby union soon otherwise the game will suffer massively.


----------



## gabi (Oct 26, 2011)

Incidentally.. Rougerie was very very lucky McCaw didnt want to overshadow the WC win by taking this one further


----------



## mattie (Oct 26, 2011)

1927 said:


> Not quite as unfucking believable as the fact that Wales are down to 8th in the rankings, 3 places behing England. We have actually ben penalised for getting to the semi fianls and losing a game, and then penaiised again for losing the 3rd place play-off, so by getting further and playing more games which we then lost we are not as good as England who went our earlier.
> 
> How can it be possible to be a worse team for getting further in the competition? Can anyone who can put up a logical argument for this state of affairs?



Win games and climb the rankings.  It's not exactly abstract, and they're the same rules and conditions for all.  How else should we decide it?  Roll a dice?  Make it up?  If you don't agree with it, ignore it.  It means little outside of wC years anyway.

England beat Oz home and away in 2010, won the last 6N, and have lost one competitive match since.  That's why they're well-ranked.

Wales lost to all SH opposition in the autumn internationals, losing all except a draw against Samoa, came 4th in the last 6N, and have lost 3 competitive matches since.  That's why they're not so well ranked.

It's really not rocket science.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 26, 2011)

What a cowardly piece of shit. It shouldn't have required McCaw to say anything, the citing commissioner should have called it and dealt with it. Surely someone employed by so august and effective an organisation as the IRB would have caught this given the fact that the media did.


----------



## mattie (Oct 26, 2011)

bendeus said:


> What a cowardly piece of shit. It shouldn't have required McCaw to say anything, the citing commissioner should have called it and dealt with it. Surely someone employed by so august and effective an organisation as the IRB would have caught this given the fact that the media did.



Not sure why there's a citing window for gouging.

It's surely a strict liability offence.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 26, 2011)

mattie said:


> Win games and climb the rankings. It's not exactly abstract, and they're the same rules and conditions for all. How else should we decide it? Roll a dice? Make it up? If you don't agree with it, ignore it. It means little outside of wC years anyway.
> 
> England beat Oz home and away in 2010, won the last 6N, and have lost one competitive match since. That's why they're well-ranked.
> 
> ...



Sounds simple doesn't it.

Does this sound more simple? 'The fourth-placed semi-finalist will drop more places in the rankings than a beaten quarter finalist'

That's definitely not rocket science.

E2A: it means a lot, btw. Due to the craven IRB altering the WC group drawing system to favour New Zealand (surprise!), teams are now drawn on ranking rather than where they finished in the WC (which was what happened previously). Semi-finalists Wales (who under previous rules would have been given a top seeding and thus avoided the tier one nations) would have been better off going out in the quarters. The ranking system has chucked us back down to 8th in spite of our success, and has made it very, very difficult for us to make up ground in order to get a decent seeding.


----------



## The Boy (Oct 26, 2011)

Rougerie is done anyway.  That said, I wouldn't be surprised to see the FFR take action internally - can't have him taking the shine off the might French performance, obviously.


----------



## mattie (Oct 26, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Sounds simple doesn't it.
> 
> Does this sound more simple? 'The fourth-placed semi-finalist will drop more places in the rankings than a beaten quarter finalist'
> 
> That's definitely not rocket science.



It's regardless - the rankings are essentially a ladder league.  The fact that a game could be a dead rubber in a 6N or the final of a WC makes no difference to the relative abilities of either side.

Wales' only real win of note was over Ireland, who are ultimately a similarly ranked team.  That's not going to make much difference to rankings.

There's an argument to be made that the WC shouldn't have any additional ponits added as it's simply another set of games.  Much as the 6N is simply another set of games.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 26, 2011)

mattie said:


> Not sure why there's a citing window for gouging.
> 
> It's surely a strict liability offence.



Me neither. Again, if the IRB *really* put player safety at the forefront as they so loftily claim, then why does gouging go unpunished or underpunished again and again. I can think of so few examples when the punishment truly fits the crime.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 26, 2011)

mattie said:


> It's regardless - the rankings are essentially a ladder league. The fact that a game could be a dead rubber in a 6N or the final of a WC makes no difference to the relative abilities of either side.
> 
> Wales' only real win of note was over Ireland, who are ultimately a similarly ranked team. That's not going to make much difference to rankings.
> 
> There's an argument to be made that the WC shouldn't have any additional ponits added as it's simply another set of games. Much as the 6N is simply another set of games.



There's another argument that would see teams accrue points for wins in the WC, but not be docked them for losses (same could apply to the entire ranking system). That would square things up a bit.


----------



## mattie (Oct 26, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Me neither. Again, if the IRB *really* put player safety at the forefront as they so loftily claim, then why does gouging go unpunished or underpunished again and again. I can think of so few examples when the punishment truly fits the crime.



I think the sanctions are sometimes watered down as there's genuine remorse for what may have been a reflexive (although cowardly and highly dangerous) act, which I'm not sure I agree with but can understand, but there's no excuse for not investigating it rigorously.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 26, 2011)

mattie said:


> I think the sanctions are sometimes watered down because the RFU is very keen for the players to be on the plane to the world cup or because the citing commissioner is being politically influenced, and sometimes there's every excuse for not investigating it rigorously.



Fixed for ya.


----------



## mattie (Oct 26, 2011)

bendeus said:


> There's another argument that would see teams accrue points for wins in the WC, but not be docked them for losses (same could apply to the entire ranking system). That would square things up a bit.



Why?

The point is that the rankings are intended to reflect relative abilities, and measured over periods of time. Skewing that continual measurement because of one competition seems, well, mad.

Rankings accrue by continual good performances, not a few weeks of knock-out competition. That's what they measure. Of course, the may not measure _form_, but they're not necessarily intended to.


----------



## The Octagon (Oct 26, 2011)

bendeus said:


> There's another argument that would see teams accrue points for wins in the WC, but not be docked them for losses (same could apply to the entire ranking system). That would square things up a bit.



In which case Wales won exactly the same number of games as England, so I'm not sure that would aid your case much?


----------



## mattie (Oct 26, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Fixed for ya.



Sometimes the case, but not all.


----------



## elfman (Oct 26, 2011)

The Octagon said:


> In which case Wales won exactly the same number of games as England, so I'm not sure that would aid your case much?


only in the WC, not necessarily over the whole year though....


----------



## bendeus (Oct 26, 2011)

mattie said:


> Why?
> 
> The point is that the rankings are intended to reflect relative abilities, and measured over periods of time. Skewing that continual measurement because of one competition seems, well, mad.
> 
> Rankings accrue by continual good performances, not a few weeks of knock-out competition. That's what they measure. Of course, the may not measure _form_, but they're not necessarily intended to.



The point of the WC-weighted system is to harmonise to a degree the world rankings with the world cup. Apparently the powers-that-be are uncomfortable with the idea of the WC winner not being world number one.

The big issue is that of seeding for WCs. Rankings are meaningless otherwise.

So yes, demoting the WC entirely would be one answer, reinstating the WC groups based on WC performance would be another. Penalising a team for progressing in the competition, however, seems patently unfair, and if you're going to have the latter system the losing semi finalist will always drop down because due to their having played and lost two more games, one of which is a dead rubber that few give a fuck about.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 26, 2011)

Let's look at this another way - Ireland came into this WC having won three of their 6N games followed by four defeats on the bounce, including one against Scotland. They then beat a bunch of minnows _en route _to a very impressive victory against Australia, before coming fairly convincingly unstuck against Wales.

Wales came into the WC having won three of their 6N games, including one against Ireland, and with two wins out of three - against Argentina and England - in the warmups. They then lost one pool game before beating Ireland convincingly on their way to the semis. The rest, we know, is history.

Ireland are, however, above Wales in the rankings and stand a far better chance of getting a top seeding now based on a decent performance in next year's 6N. That, to me, is unfair.


----------



## flypanam (Oct 26, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Ireland are, however, above Wales .



Natural order? 

Actually we're only one place above you and that's down to beating the then second placed Aussies.

As a system it's annoying for us but for the likes of Canada it's sickening. If France hadn't lost to Tonga, they would have got automatic place and the Next WC (if NZ are not there, they still might) and funding.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 26, 2011)

flypanam said:


> Natural order?



Natural order for the last two decades, yes. Apparently this is the first time since 1988 that we have scored back-to-back wins against you. Since then you have chalked up 17 wins to our 8



> As a system it's annoying for us but for the likes of Canada it's sickening. If France hadn't lost to Tonga, they would have got automatic place and the Next WC (if NZ are not there, they still might) and funding.



Bloody French!


----------



## flypanam (Oct 26, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Natural order for the last two decades, yes. Apparently this is the first time since 1988 that we have scored back-to-back wins against you. Since then you have chalked up 17 wins to our 8



Really? I feel ill.


----------



## bendeus (Oct 26, 2011)

This also included a five-season winning streak for Ireland. Now_ I_ feel ill /pukey smiley/


----------



## Infidel Castro (Oct 30, 2011)

O'Gara's last minute drop-goals make me puke.  I was celebrating a win one year and before we all knew what was going on Ireland claimed the restart and dropped the goal straight off with like a second left.  The beer tasted shit that day I have to say.


----------



## Red Faction (Oct 30, 2011)

Can't accuse them of taking last minute line-outs with the wrong ball...


----------



## bendeus (Oct 30, 2011)

Infidel Castro said:


> O'Gara's last minute drop-goals make me puke.  I was celebrating a win one year and before we all knew what was going on Ireland claimed the restart and dropped the goal straight off with like a second left.  The beer tasted shit that day I have to say.



I've never felt so robbed as I felt that day. Awesome dg by Onan, mind.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Oct 30, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Natural order for the last two decades, yes. Apparently this is the first time since 1988 that we have scored back-to-back wins against you.


And one of those by cheating!.


----------



## mattie (Nov 1, 2011)

'Dick of the Day'



http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2011/oct/31/rugby-football-union-martin-johnson

Although I can imagine Gunshow wining that, and interpreting the award a bit differently to how it was intended.


----------



## bendeus (Nov 4, 2011)

mattie said:


> 'Dick of the Day'



Man, I wouldn't know where to begin with so many in contention.


----------



## gabi (Nov 4, 2011)

havent really been following this.. is johnson still in the job? or did they hire an actual coach this time?


----------



## mattie (Nov 4, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Man, I wouldn't know where to begin with so many in contention.



I think Gunshow runs away with it.


----------



## mattie (Nov 4, 2011)

gabi said:


> havent really been following this.. is johnson still in the job? or did they hire an actual coach this time?



The 6N-winning coach is still in post.


----------



## gabi (Nov 4, 2011)

Excellent


----------



## mattie (Nov 4, 2011)

Good for him.


----------



## gabi (Nov 4, 2011)

Aren't both shaun edwards and graeme henry available? Would seem a no brainer to get either if so


----------



## mattie (Nov 4, 2011)

Re. Shaun edwards, our defence is OK - although I think Edwards could improve it, the case isn't as compelling as for a new attach coach which is absolutely fucking vital.

As is the case for getting rid of squeaky.


----------



## mattie (Nov 4, 2011)

I should add, getting rid of squeaky through the nearest window and making sure he can't come back.


----------



## gabi (Nov 4, 2011)

I meant bringing in Edwards as your head coach. 

Johnson is a good man, and was a great player. But never a head coach. 

Who's squeaky btw


----------



## bendeus (Nov 4, 2011)

Rumours that Edwards is being lined up for head coach at Cardiff Blues, with a beefed-up role with Wales. We shall see.......if I was Sion I'm not sure I'd want to step into the fucking shambolic snakepit that is HQ at present. I'd wait for the bloodletting to die down first.


----------



## bendeus (Nov 4, 2011)

mattie said:


> Re. Shaun edwards, our defence is OK - although I think Edwards could improve it, the case isn't as compelling as for a new attach coach which is absolutely fucking vital.
> 
> As is the case for getting rid of squeaky.



Aye. You only need that little extra push to turn Flood into Dan Carter, Tindall into Ma'a Nonu and Banahan into Gerald Davies. Honest


----------



## mattie (Nov 6, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Aye. You only need that little extra push to turn Flood into Dan Carter, Tindall into Ma'a Nonu and Banahan into Gerald Davies. Honest



We finally seem to have backs who can score tries. I can only assume that coaches familiar with mid-2000s England haven't caught up yet.

As evidenced by their desire to keep at least one of the breath-taking Noon/Tindall midfield in the current squad.


----------



## bendeus (Nov 9, 2011)

mattie said:


> As evidenced by their desire to keep at least one of the breath-taking Noon/Tindall midfield in the current squad.





Who would you have there?


----------



## mattie (Nov 9, 2011)

In place of them?  Tuilagi.  David Beckham.  Me.  Anyone.


----------



## bendeus (Nov 9, 2011)

mattie said:


> In place of them? Tuilagi.



C'mon, Tuilagi may be the most superawesome Saxon who ever chowed down on roast beef and Yorkshire pudding, but even he can't play 12 and 13 at the same time


----------



## mattie (Nov 9, 2011)

Other centres I'd rather we went with above Tindall (although I think we're primarily after a passing 12 I list those who I think should be looked at) are Olly Barkley, the Matts Tait (now he's at Leicester I hope he gets his head sorted, but he's in last-chance saloon) and Banahan, Antony Allen, George Lowe, Brad Barritt, Henry Trinder, even Sinbad or someone like Twelvetrees.

Flutey's a better player, and despite his notable drop so is Hape.

Tindall and Noon offer very little beyond physicality.  Tindall once offered considerably more, but he's no longer the player he was.

We won't go with any of the above because they'll all be perceived as more liable to drop a tackle or not break a crash ball gainline than Tindall.  And we'll have plodders who can't pass, and any given combination of Tuilagi, Ashton, Armitage, Foden, Cueto or whoever might replace him can spend all their time rucking as our centre goes to ground.

Wales have success in using big lumps in players like Roberts and North because they use them sensibly.  We use crash-ball in place of sense.  I'd rather we just recognised we've better players elsewhere and built the approach round them, not go for an approach that simply isn't working, is wasteful of talent elsewhere and - ultimately - is just dull.


----------



## mattie (Nov 11, 2011)

Dropped, although for drinking beer and speaking to women.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/15693399.stm

eta - I should point out that Gunshow and Ashton had £5K fines suspended, and everyone's favourite cheeky cherub Dylan Hartley was found innocent of wrongdoing.


----------



## mattie (Nov 13, 2011)

Sounds an awesome wedding:

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,16024_7306405,00.html


----------



## gabi (Nov 13, 2011)

You'd think that's his career over

actually, that's eerily reminiscent of a friend of mine's breakdown. he was diagnosed as bipolar. the doc involved told me it's a very common 'symptom' for someone with that condition - stripping off and going walkabout.

anyway, hope the kid gets help.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Nov 16, 2011)

Martin Johnson quits.


----------



## gabi (Nov 16, 2011)

Now, you'd hope they've lined up a replacement - however being the RFU. I doubt it.


----------



## bendeus (Nov 16, 2011)

gabi said:


> Now, you'd hope they've lined up a replacement - however being the RFU. I doubt it.



Marc Lievrement named as MJ's successor. They were pretty quick to act. A very interesting appointment.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/English/15629017.stm

Heeeerrreee, fishy, fishy!


----------



## gabi (Nov 16, 2011)

that link doesnt work, but i assume you're joking  I hope you're not mind you, but you have to be


----------



## The Boy (Nov 16, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Marc Lievrement named as MJ's successor. They were pretty quick to act. A very interesting appointment.
> 
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/English/15629017.stm
> 
> Heeeerrreee, fishy, fishy!



You had me going for a second there


----------



## gabi (Nov 16, 2011)

And still Rob Andrew survives. Mental 

If ever there was a time to bring in some management consultants to sort an organisation out, this could possibly be it


----------



## mattie (Nov 17, 2011)

Eddie Jones is more than keen.  I'd favour Mallinder, not least because he seems to be able to manage the cheeky chappies Ashton, Hartley and Foden which implies a more easy management style.  Not that I blame Johnno for his rigid attitude, in fact it's one of the reasons I hold him in such high regard, but he seemed a bit perplexed that some people don't share his moral code or carry themselves as well as he does.

In other news, I'm sure rugby fans can unite and agree on the following point:

http://www.petitiononline.co.uk/petition/rob-andrew-resign/3909


----------



## gabi (Nov 17, 2011)

Well exactly. He's a decent man without a doubt. But he's not a manager. You need to be a bit of a cunt to be good at that, a la Henry, Capello.

I assume he selected Thompson and Tindall as they were mates. Which isn't exactly good management.


----------



## bendeus (Nov 17, 2011)

mattie said:


> Eddie Jones is more than keen. I'd favour Mallinder, not least because he seems to be able to manage the cheeky chappies Ashton, Hartley and Foden which implies a more easy management style. Not that I blame Johnno for his rigid attitude, in fact it's one of the reasons I hold him in such high regard, but he seemed a bit perplexed that some people don't share his moral code or carry themselves as well as he does.
> 
> In other news, I'm sure rugby fans can unite and agree on the following point:
> 
> http://www.petitiononline.co.uk/petition/rob-andrew-resign/3909



Quite the contrary, Mattie. I'd like to see RA's job secured until at least 2112. He's doing a magnificent job. Has to be said, though, that the new info coming to light about his opposing MJ's appointment only to be overruled by Martyn Thomas is pretty interesting. Nob wanted the Drunken Uncle retained.


----------



## bendeus (Nov 17, 2011)

gabi said:


> Well exactly. He's a decent man without a doubt. But he's not a manager. You need to be a bit of a cunt to be good at that, a la Henry, Capello.
> 
> I assume he selected Thompson and Tindall as they were mates. Which isn't exactly good management.



Be assured that MJ _is _a bit of a cunt, as evidenced by his success on the field.

He's just the wrong kind of cunt, that's all.


----------



## mattie (Nov 17, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Quite the contrary, Mattie. I'd like to see RA's job secured until at least 2112. He's doing a magnificent job. Has to be said, though, that the new info coming to light about his opposing MJ's appointment only to be overruled by Martyn Thomas is pretty interesting. Nob wanted the Drunken Uncle retained.



It's such a shame parochialism overrides the opportunity of giving careerist twats a shoeing.

I suspect squeaky thought Johnno might be a bit too strong a personality.  Sadly, he is, doing the decent whilst squeaky desperately covers arse.


----------



## bendeus (Nov 17, 2011)

mattie said:


> It's such a shame parochialism overrides the opportunity of giving careerist twats a shoeing.



Sorry. I'm still smarting over the effigies


----------



## mattie (Nov 17, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Sorry. I'm still smarting over the effigies



I found one that looks like a certain Taffie talisman:


----------



## mattie (Nov 17, 2011)

On the topic of over-rated cartoon clowns:

http://www.rugby365.com/news/2820825.htm

I wonder if he'd get any backchat.


----------



## bendeus (Nov 17, 2011)

I bet he failed to break the gainline even then.


----------



## mattie (Nov 23, 2011)

It's all coming out in the wash:

http://www.espnscrum.com/england/rugby/story/154814.html

Get rid of squeaky - the careerism, buck-passing shamelessness and lack of grace and humility starts with him.  Yes, he's a good politician, but his role takes him into direct contact with the rugby playing side of the organisation and his influence is corrosive.  If we can't flick him, at least put him in the commercial side of the organisation.

Get a rugby-facing team in who will point out to the likes of Haskell how a professional rugby player is expected to conduct themselves.  Utterly amazing that the has to be told, but it looks like he has to be told.  If he can;t get his head round it, get rid of him.  Not only disruptive, but an embarrassment to the shirt.

Most importantly, get in a team whom the players trust and who will not accept twattish behaviour.  Again, Mallinder seems to keep Hartley (a twat), Ashton (more a bit slow than a twat) and Foden (becoming a bit more precious than I'd like) in line, definitely worth a look.

English cricket went through something similar - players playing for their own careers and not the shirt - and they fixed it, and now English cricket is in excellent shape despite there being a few 'characters' to deal with.  English rugby needs to go through something similar now.


----------



## gabi (Nov 23, 2011)

mattie, this is just in from Hello!







http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2011/nov/23/england-world-cup-fiasco-leaked-report



> There were also accusations that senior colleagues indulged in drinking games and poked fun at those who committed wholeheartedly to training. Johnson, who resigned as team manager last week, was the subject of particular criticism for failing to deal adequately with the fallout from the drunken night out in Queenstown, which saw Mike Tindall belatedly fined for his conduct.



Glorious.


----------



## flypanam (Nov 23, 2011)

Andrew Hore last night


----------



## bendeus (Nov 23, 2011)

mattie said:


> It's all coming out in the wash:
> 
> http://www.espnscrum.com/england/rugby/story/154814.html
> 
> ...



I agree with most of your prescription, Mattie.

The more I hear of Ashton, and the more I see of his behaviour both on and off the pitch, however, leads me to think that he's a proper, grade-a cunt, who has let his limited success go to his head. I'd also say that Mallinder appears to positively encourage cuntery at Northampton. In Lawes, Foden, Ashton and Hartley they have rapidly surpassed both Leicester and Munster as having the biggest bunch of tossers in their ranks, and if their behaviour against the two Welsh sides they've played against recently is anything to go by Mallinder seems to have incorporated their 'exuberance' into the gameplan. They're a bunch of dirty, flat-track-bully cheap shot merchants who get dirtier and cheaper the more they're put on the back foot.

Mallinder may rein in their excesses off the pitch, but I reckon he feeds them on it. If you want to see the same at national level, so be it.


----------



## mattie (Nov 23, 2011)

bendeus said:


> I agree with most of your prescription, Mattie.
> 
> The more I hear of Ashton, and the more I see of his behaviour both on and off the pitch, however, leads me to think that he's a proper, grade-a cunt, who has let his limited success go to his head. I'd also say that Mallinder appears to positively encourage cuntery at Northampton. In Lawes, Foden, Ashton and Hartley they have rapidly surpassed both Leicester and Munster as having the biggest bunch of tossers in their ranks, and if their behaviour against the two Welsh sides they've played against recently is anything to go by Mallinder seems to have incorporated their 'exuberance' into the gameplan. They're a bunch of dirty, flat-track-bully cheap shot merchants who get dirtier and cheaper the more they're put on the back foot.
> 
> Mallinder may rein in their excesses off the pitch, but I reckon he feeds them on it. If you want to see the same at national level, so be it.



I'd need to see precisely what 'exuberance' you're referring to to be able to comment.  A quick read of planet rugby forums etc suggest that Scarlets weren't exactly above a bit of afters themselves.

In general terms, of course Hartley has made himself a target, but Gatland's goadings were utterly disgraceful for an international coach and Castro's faceslapping and provocation was a cunt's trick.  Castro isn't a particularly nice bloke, and Gatland is an arse, but they're aiming at Hartley for a reason, and that reason is Hartley's own doing.  I don't get the criticism of either Lawes or Foden, Lawes is a lock so he's going to put himself about and Foden may have embraced the celebrity more than I'd like, but neither of them are Hartley.  Ashton is just a bit dim, and has taken a fair few nasty hits without whinging - remember Manu laying into him?


----------



## mattie (Nov 23, 2011)

gabi said:


> mattie, this is just in from Hello!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Lewis Moody in Hello?  I think not.


----------



## mattie (Nov 23, 2011)

> Among comments by players are attacks on the "absolutely terrible" pre-season, selection choices based on reputation rather than form, and on poor media management which led to a "siege mentality". The key issues for the players included:
> 
> Martin Johnson
> 
> ...


First task:

Make people accountable for their actions - i.e. sack Squeaky. As we all know, a corporate culture starts at the top.

The press whinges are a load of nonsense, the lack of discipline and accountability is a disaster.

If Wood can play a stormer and get left out for a half-fit Moody, and Simpson and Wigglesworth left out for a patently knackered Youngs, Tindall can get blind drunk and still get picked, then we have no accountability.


----------



## gabi (Nov 23, 2011)

mattie said:


> Lewis Moody in Hello? I think not.



Oh, I'm sure he wouldn't turn it down for a few quid


----------



## The Boy (Nov 23, 2011)

That article mentions three reports but doesn't say from which report each quote comes from.  Would it be cynical of me to suggest that Rob Andrew is the leak here?  Given how much blame is being placed at the door of the management, it reeks slightly of self-preservation on his part.


----------



## gabi (Nov 23, 2011)

It's just a total mess - who the hell is in charge there? Surely time to bring in management consultants and start from scratch.


----------



## bendeus (Nov 23, 2011)

mattie said:


> I'd need to see precisely what 'exuberance' you're referring to to be able to comment. A quick read of planet rugby forums etc suggest that Scarlets weren't exactly above a bit of afters themselves.



Just cheap shots and general thuggery really: deliberately trying to injure someone by twisting their leg in the wrong direction when they're trapped in a ruck, pinching people's necks (pinching, ffs!) to goad and wind them up (on more than one occasion), general strutting cock gobshitery



> I don't get the criticism of either Lawes



His 'performance' against Argentina seems to sum him up. Lawes likes to put himself about a bit like any lock does, but appears to do so with an intent to cause damage.



> or Foden



He's just a bit of a cock.


----------



## mattie (Nov 23, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Just cheap shots and general thuggery really: deliberately trying to injure someone by twisting their leg in the wrong direction when they're trapped in a ruck, pinching people's necks (pinching, ffs!) to goad and wind them up (on more than one occasion), general strutting cock gobshitery
> 
> His 'performance' against Argentina seems to sum him up. Lawes likes to put himself about a bit like any lock does, but appears to do so with an intent to cause damage.
> 
> He's just a bit of a cock.



I'm in full agreement with criticism of Hartley, who we've discussed elsewhere, but to say Lawes goes out to hurt people is, well, a touch fanciful.

And I think any charge levelled at Foden applies to most professional rugby players.  He's got a celebrity girlfriend, so gabi's favourite magazine takes more of an interest in him.  A touch surprised you take much notice of it.


----------



## gabi (Nov 23, 2011)

More from Hello!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2011/nov/23/rfu-england-rugby-world-cup

damning


----------



## sleaterkinney (Nov 23, 2011)

mattie said:


> Ashton is just a bit dim, and has taken a fair few nasty hits without whinging - remember Manu laying into him?


That was just him getting put in his place, that's why he shut up. The leaks are great stuff for any ABE, but imo the rot starts higher up than the manager.


----------



## mattie (Nov 23, 2011)

gabi said:


> More from Hello!
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2011/nov/23/rfu-england-rugby-world-cup
> 
> damning



Cipriani is in the Barbarians team.  You must be thrilled.


----------



## mattie (Nov 23, 2011)

sleaterkinney said:


> That was just him getting put in his place, that's why he shut up. The leaks are great stuff for any ABE, but imo the rot starts higher up than the manager.



There are plenty of people more worthy of a slap than Ashton.

But yes, the empire-building and buck-passing by the suits at RFU sets the overall tone, and quite a nasty one at that.


----------



## mattie (Nov 23, 2011)

gabi said:


> It's just a total mess - who the hell is in charge there? Surely time to bring in management consultants and start from scratch.



Management consultants?  We're trying to make it better, not worse.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Nov 23, 2011)

mattie said:


> There are plenty of people more worthy of a slap than Ashton.


Nah, I can't think of bigger show-offs tbh.

Almost forgot this 


> They selected [Lewis] Moody ahead of [Tom] Wood despite Moodos being half-fit and Woody playing awesomely in training and in the Six Nations


 
Yah, I'm going to play some rugger with Moodos.


----------



## bendeus (Nov 23, 2011)

.


----------



## bendeus (Nov 23, 2011)

mattie said:


> Cipriani is in the Barbarians team. You must be thrilled.




Turf Humper, Sam Tomkins, has also been called up. I'm wondering whether they'll select a bloke with clown's feet and a squirty flower to complete the debacle. And to think the Baa Baas once had some fucking credibility.

www.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/15810900.stm


----------



## bendeus (Nov 23, 2011)

mattie said:


> Management consultants? We're trying to make it better, not worse.



Clearly you don't back Lord Bald having a second tilt, then?


----------



## bendeus (Nov 23, 2011)

sleaterkinney said:


> Nah, I can't think of bigger show-offs tbh.
> 
> Almost forgot this
> 
> Yah, I'm going to play some rugger with Moodos.



At least you're not going to play rugger with Wood.


----------



## bendeus (Nov 23, 2011)

mattie said:


> There are plenty of people more worthy of a slap than Ashton.



I'm not sure if Saif-al-Islam is entirely safe.........


----------



## bendeus (Nov 23, 2011)

sleaterkinney said:


> That was just him getting put in his place, that's why he shut up. The leaks are great stuff for any ABE, but imo the rot starts higher up than the manager.



Thing is, he didn't 'shut up', did he? Has anyone read the interview recently conducted with him in the back of a limousine on the way to 'the city'? What. A. Cunt.

Sorry, but would any Welsh, Irish or Scottish player (or even a French one) do the same? Can anybody remind me what he's actually achieved again? Nailed-on fucking Lion

Here's some excerpts:



> Chris Ashton is sitting in a chauffeur-driven Jaguar inching through the traffic on a Friday morning in London. His manager, Andi Peters, has offered him a hand-cut sandwich to curb his appetite until lunchtime. His publisher, Emma Harrow, has called the bookstore at Leadenhall — where fans have already started queuing for the signing — to explain that he is running late.  Ashton gazes at the madness beyond the smoked-glass pane and wolfs into the sandwich . . .
> 
> *This is how celebrity tastes. He has feasted on it for a year now; helicopter rides to Glastonbury, the best seats at Wimbledon, first-class flights and five-star hotels. He plays in personalised boots. He’s on first-name terms with Prince Harry and socialised with the Queen at her grand-daughter’s wedding in Scotland. He’s made a TV commercial, landed a column with the Daily Mail and signed a two-book deal at the age of 24 with Simon&Schuster — that’s Wayne Rooney territory. *
> 
> ...


----------



## bendeus (Nov 23, 2011)

gabi said:


> Oh, I'm sure he wouldn't turn it down for a few quid



(lovely Welsh name, mind)


----------



## bendeus (Nov 23, 2011)

mattie said:


> but to say Lawes goes out to hurt people is, well, a touch fanciful.



We'll see. He's looking like a nailed-on filthy bastard to me.



> And I think any charge levelled at Foden applies to most professional rugby players.



I've posted two recent articles involving 'Fodes' in the last few months. One was informing the Welsh that we were like 'little brothers', who needed putting in their place, the other stating that the best team lost against France,  and that it 'should have' been England facing Wales in the semi (if only!).

Arrogant, false sense of entitlement, opinion of self above station, yet to win anything of note: he must be a modern English rugby 'star'.


----------



## gabi (Nov 23, 2011)

Jesus. Loads of papers and news channels apparently picking up on this Hello! story of England being a fucking disgrace, on and off the field.

Who knew Hello! was such a cutting edge sports publication .... Mattie, you should really check it out now and then, they seem to have scooped everyone!


----------



## mattie (Nov 24, 2011)

gabi said:


> Jesus. Loads of papers and news channels apparently picking up on this Hello! story of England being a fucking disgrace, on and off the field.
> 
> Who knew Hello! was such a cutting edge sports publication .... Mattie, you should really check it out now and then, they seem to have scooped everyone!



I'll maybe have a look at your copy when you're done with it.

Assuming the pages aren't stuck together.


----------



## mattie (Nov 24, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Thing is, he didn't 'shut up', did he? Has anyone read the interview recently conducted with him in the back of a limousine on the way to 'the city'? What. A. Cunt.
> 
> Sorry, but would any Welsh, Irish or Scottish player (or even a French one) do the same? Can anybody remind me what he's actually achieved again? Nailed-on fucking Lion
> 
> Here's some excerpts:



Do you think before you write?


----------



## mattie (Nov 24, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Turf Humper, Sam Tomkins, has also been called up. I'm wondering whether they'll select a bloke with clown's feet and a squirty flower to complete the debacle. And to think the Baa Baas once had some fucking credibility.
> 
> www.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/15810900.stm



Tomkins is an immense talent, which makes me suspect someone from a certain Premier Rugby team who shall remain nameless have been agitating behind the scenes to get around Tomkins' agreement not to speak to Union teams for (I think) 3 years.


----------



## mattie (Nov 24, 2011)

bendeus said:


> We'll see. He's looking like a nailed-on filthy bastard to me.
> 
> I've posted two recent articles involving 'Fodes' in the last few months. One was informing the Welsh that we were like 'little brothers', who needed putting in their place, the other stating that the best team lost against France, and that it 'should have' been England facing Wales in the semi (if only!).
> 
> Arrogant, false sense of entitlement, opinion of self above station, yet to win anything of note: he must be a modern English rugby 'star'.



I seem to remember a lot of whining from the taffs, about how they should be in a WC final. It's what happens. They're airing an opinion. Only, for some reason, they're not arrogant. Oh no.

If England had played the way they'd played in late 2010/early 2011 they stood a great chance of winning. They didn't, they played like drains, and Foden wasn't happy with it as he felt he blew an opportunity. I agree entirely.  Foden states it, now he's arrogant.

I quite like his comment re the Welsh


----------



## mattie (Nov 24, 2011)

sleaterkinney said:


> Nah, I can't think of bigger show-offs tbh.
> 
> Almost forgot this
> 
> Yah, I'm going to play some rugger with Moodos.



I don't get the joke.  Someone has a nickname?


----------



## mattie (Nov 24, 2011)

The Boy said:


> That article mentions three reports but doesn't say from which report each quote comes from. Would it be cynical of me to suggest that Rob Andrew is the leak here? Given how much blame is being placed at the door of the management, it reeks slightly of self-preservation on his part.



A similar sentiment is being aired on many of the rugby forums I read.

He's just a hateful man, compare and contrast his actions with those of Johnno.  No wonder there's a weasely feel to much of RFU and the England team these days.


----------



## bendeus (Nov 24, 2011)

mattie said:


> Do you think before you write?



What has Ashton got to do with British Lion, double grand slam winner and former IRB young player of the year, Gavin Henson?


----------



## mattie (Nov 24, 2011)

bendeus said:


> What has Ashton got to do with British Lion, double grand slam winner and former IRB young player of the year, Gavin Henson?



In terms of character flaws, he's not a patch on him.

Also, one of them has played - and scored a significant number of tries - in a World Cup.


----------



## The Octagon (Nov 24, 2011)

bendeus said:


> What has Ashton got to do with British Lion, double grand slam winner and former IRB young player of the year, Gavin Henson?



Now you're just being disingenuous


----------



## mattie (Nov 24, 2011)

And Ashton was responding directly to an interviewer's questions (what arrogance!) whereas Chavin seems to manage to engineer opportunities to say idiot things.


----------



## bendeus (Nov 24, 2011)

mattie said:


> I seem to remember a lot of whining from the taffs, about how they should be in a WC final. It's what happens. They're airing an opinion. Only, for some reason, they're not arrogant. Oh no.



I didn't notice too many Welsh players bleating on with the same sense of entitlement after the s/f, actually. Foden's point was that they deserved to be in the s/f, that they were better than the French, and that they were somehow robbed. That patently wasn't true if you'd watched the game.

The Welsh should have won the game against France. They didn't, obviously, but to any neutral observer were clearly the better side on the day, and probably more meritorious of progression. I'd be interested to see an interview with a Welsh player that was quite so mealy mouthed and graceless as Foden's, however.



> If England had played the way they'd played in late 2010/early 2011 they stood a great chance of winning. They didn't, they played like drains, and Foden wasn't happy with it as he felt he blew an opportunity.



That's not what he said, or how he said it.



> I quite like his comment re the Welsh



Pope in woodland defacation shockah!


----------



## mattie (Nov 24, 2011)

bendeus said:


> I didn't notice too many Welsh players bleating on with the same sense of entitlement after the s/f, actually. Foden's point was that they deserved to be in the s/f, that they were better than the French, and that they were somehow robbed. That patently wasn't true if you'd watched the game.
> 
> The Welsh should have won the game against France. They didn't, obviously, but to any neutral observer were clearly the better side on the day, and probably more meritorious of progression. I'd be interested to see an interview with a Welsh player that was quite so mealy mouthed and graceless as Foden's, however.
> 
> ...



So what you're saying is you also read interviews with one eye?

I've tried that, the problem is Jonny Wilkinson's pseudo-Buddhism makes even less sense.


----------



## bendeus (Nov 24, 2011)

mattie said:


> In terms of character flaws, he's not a patch on him.
> 
> Also, one of them has played - and scored a significant number of tries - in a World Cup.



That's right. He ensures that he's in a three-to-one  majority when he intimidates young women in hotel rooms. Stupid Chavin is more of a one-to-twelve man


----------



## bendeus (Nov 24, 2011)

mattie said:


> So what you're saying is you also read interviews with one eye?
> 
> I've tried that, the problem is Jonny Wilkinson's pseudo-Buddhism makes even less sense.



No. What I'm saying is what I read.

And what I read clearly indicates Fodes' gracelessness and sense of entitlement.


----------



## mattie (Nov 24, 2011)

bendeus said:


> No. What I'm saying is what I read.
> 
> And what I read clearly indicates Fodes' gracelessness and sense of entitlement.



Really? It read like the internal thoughts of someone who blew their World Cup chance.

The internal thoughts, like he'd been paid to provide. I query the choice to accept the shilling for providing them, and I wonder even more about those who choose to read them (including our resident hapless kiwi), but that's what he's tasked with delivering.

To answer your previous question:



> "France were poor and they are going to get blown away in the Final. It is as simple as that.





> We are a very good team and we deserve to be in the Final, without a shadow of a doubt


That's Mike Phillips being gracious in defeat and in no way arrogant.

One day, bendy, one day I'll prise open that other eye, come hell or high water.


----------



## mattie (Nov 24, 2011)

bendeus said:


> That's right. He ensures that he's in a three-to-one majority when he intimidates young women in hotel rooms. Stupid Chavin is more of a one-to-twelve man



Oh dear.

Remind me, didn't the review board - the one who fined HRH £25K and sacked him from England - say there was no case to answer?


----------



## bendeus (Nov 24, 2011)

mattie said:


> One day, bendy, one day I'll prise open that other eye, come hell or high water.



Pah! I don't want it open. The rugby forums are far more fun from my monocular perch.

Now, have I mentioned that the Irish are a great big bunch of cheats at all?


----------



## bendeus (Nov 24, 2011)

mattie said:


> Oh dear.
> 
> Remind me, didn't the review board - the one who fined HRH £25K and sacked him from England - say there was no case to answer?



So what did they apologise for?


----------



## mattie (Nov 24, 2011)

bendeus said:


> So what did they apologise for?



You tell me.  The review, which has pulled few punches, stated there was no case to answer.  Ashton seemed bemused by it all in his 'interview' - in fairness, I think 'bemused' is rather his default setting.

I think they still need a very extensive bollocking to point out that not everyone enjoys their 'banter' and it tends to be most unpleasant for those on the receiving end.  They're supposed to be professionals, representing a nation (and, in this sad word we live in, a raft of corporate sponsors), not frat boys out on the lash.


----------



## bendeus (Nov 24, 2011)

mattie said:


> You tell me. The review, which has pulled few punches, stated there was no case to answer. Ashton seemed bemused by it all in his 'interview' - in fairness, I think 'bemused' is rather his default setting.
> 
> I think they still need a very extensive bollocking to point out that not everyone enjoys their 'banter' and it tends to be most unpleasant for those on the receiving end. They're supposed to be professionals, representing a nation (and, in this sad word we live in, a raft of corporate sponsors), not frat boys out on the lash.



Hrm. That there was 'no case to answer' is a matter of opinion, no? They clearly opined that the incident with the girl in the hotel room was either fabricated, blown out of proportion, or of little consequence.

How did they arrive at this position? Did they ask the girl, did they ask the players or did they ask both? She definitely made a complaint to her superiors, she clearly described how their behaviour went beyond the bounds of acceptability for her and she was equally clear about how that behaviour left her feeling upset and humiliated. Just because the panel felt that what happened didn't present a 'case to answer' doesn't necessarily mean that there wasn't one, right?


----------



## mattie (Nov 24, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Hrm. That there was 'no case to answer' is a matter of opinion, no? They clearly opined that the incident with the girl in the hotel room was either fabricated, blown out of proportion, or of little consequence.
> 
> How did they arrive at this position? Did they ask the girl, did they ask the players or did they ask both? She definitely made a complaint to her superiors, she clearly described how their behaviour went beyond the bounds of acceptability for her and she was equally clear about how that behaviour left her feeling upset and humiliated. Just because the panel felt that what happened didn't present a 'case to answer' doesn't necessarily mean that there wasn't one, right?



Doesn't mean there was. Doesn't mean there wasn't.

What it does suggest to me is that it did not occur as the press portrayed it - or, dare I say it, as some of the more sanctimonious members of this forum were only too keen to believe. There's a media value in representing it one way, which of course is as damaging as possible, objectivity be damned, and we certainly only hear one side of the story. The RFU - who have just sacked Tindall, so they're not exactly brushing inappropriate behaviour under carpets - have decided there's no case to answer. I can't see a more objective assessment than theirs - If there is one, please feel free to direct me to it. They're not even protecting current players, as the main perpetrator (Gunshow) won't be eligible for England whilst he pisses off to NZ and Japan.

This has been a feature of the whole summer - the Irish team were in the same bar as Tindall et al, yet this doesn't seem to be mentioned or commented upon. Why not? Because BOD isn't married to royalty? Or because it won't sell papers?

I'm certainly not saying there was nothing in it, as we've been through before and I can well believe their behaviour was objectionable, but this trial by media gets right on my tits. I've given up on football because of this irrelevant nonsense, and now it's infecting rugby.


----------



## gabi (Nov 24, 2011)

lulz

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/sport/sport-headlines/england-rugby-team-english-201111244584/


----------



## mattie (Nov 24, 2011)

Another one bites the dust.

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,16024_7330872,00.html

I've long wondered if he was a good fit for England, only rarely getting the best from our more expressive and expansive backs, but this is a particularly shitty and cowardly way to clear the decks.


----------



## bendeus (Nov 25, 2011)

mattie said:


> Doesn't mean there was. Doesn't mean there wasn't.
> 
> What it does suggest to me is that it did not occur as the press portrayed it - or, dare I say it, as some of the more sanctimonious members of this forum were only too keen to believe. There's a media value in representing it one way, which of course is as damaging as possible, objectivity be damned, and we certainly only hear one side of the story. The RFU - who have just sacked Tindall, so they're not exactly brushing inappropriate behaviour under carpets - have decided there's no case to answer. I can't see a more objective assessment than theirs - If there is one, please feel free to direct me to it. They're not even protecting current players, as the main perpetrator (Gunshow) won't be eligible for England whilst he pisses off to NZ and Japan.
> 
> ...





> Hartley was exonerated by the RFU, which warned Haskell and Ashton over their conduct and gave them suspended fines but found the chambermaid's "allegations of very serious wrongdoing" were "entirely false".



http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2011/nov/25/rugby-union-rob-andrew

So, what exactly does this mean. Two of the men were 'warned' over their conduct - so they must have done something, which rather flies in the face of their being 'no case to answer'. It found that the chambermaid's allegations of 'very serious' wrongdoing were 'entirely false', so does that mean that the other allegations were true, and if so, which of her allegations were true and which false? And on what basis was the decision to separate out the allegations arrived at? I'm kind of wondering whether they were wearing towels, whether The Brand made the sexual comments, whether Ashton did, and what the panel used to corroborate or dismiss these accusations.

All a bit murky.

E2A: And the RFU tried to get them to pay hush money. Fuck's sake!


----------



## mattie (Nov 25, 2011)

bendeus said:


> http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2011/nov/25/rugby-union-rob-andrew
> 
> So, what exactly does this mean. Two of the men were 'warned' over their conduct - so they must have done something, which rather flies in the face of their being 'no case to answer'. It found that the chambermaid's allegations of 'very serious' wrongdoing were 'entirely false', so does that mean that the other allegations were true, and if so, which of her allegations were true and which false? And on what basis was the decision to separate out the allegations arrived at? I'm kind of wondering whether they were wearing towels, whether The Brand made the sexual comments, whether Ashton did, and what the panel used to corroborate or dismiss these accusations.
> 
> ...



My reading is the 'warning' was 'stop acting like childish pricks and stop putting yourselves in compromising positions'.

Utterly amazing that professional sportsmen who are representing their country at the pinnacle of their sport should need to be told, but that's how far standards appear to have slipped.

You can keep reading desperately between lines, as far as I can see it was a bunch of immature macho pranksters taking a joke too far. You've already stated you think it was sexual harassment, based solely upon a tabloid claim. I really can't see much point continuing to discuss this. I recall allegations made against Mike Brown, where you were only too pleased to say you thought he was a rapist, based upon zero evidence other than someone making a claim in a tabloid but not reporting it to police. The RFU investigated, and this is their conclusion:



> It is the irresponsible reporting which has done more to damage the image of England rugby rather than any actual events themselves, and I hope that those responsible will redress the balance in reporting these findings"



Did they redress the balance? Did they fuck. Do others - including your good self- continue to draw on the 'irresponsible reporting'? Yes.

Were the RFU protecting Mike Brown, Topsy Ojo and Dave Strettle? Unlikely, seeing as they haven't been in an England squad for some while.

I hope my tone indicates this is not something I'm taking in the spirit of jest. Trial - and conviction - by media is reprehensible.


----------



## gabi (Nov 25, 2011)

You're as deluded as your rugby union if you're *still* blaming this shit on the media.

The revelations in the media are actually the best thing that could happen to your entirely dysfunctional organisation.


----------



## mattie (Nov 25, 2011)

gabi said:


> You're as deluded as your rugby union if you're *still* blaming this shit on the media.
> 
> The revelations in the media are actually the best thing that could happen to your entirely dysfunctional organisation.



I blame the media for many things, including hello magazine commenting on Mike Tindall and thus directing you to this thread.


----------



## gabi (Nov 25, 2011)

Dude, for one last time, I didn't read about Mike Tindall getting hammered in Queenstown and cheating on his new bride in Hello! magazine.

I read about it on the front page of the Guardian, okay?


----------



## mattie (Nov 25, 2011)

gabi said:


> Dude, for one last time, I didn't read about Mike Tindall getting hammered in Queenstown and cheating on his new bride in Hello! magazine.
> 
> I read about it on the front page of the Guardian, okay?



For the last time, if you profess to read about rugby in the Guardian, how come you know so little about rugby and so much about Tindall's lovelife?


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## gabi (Nov 25, 2011)

I'm not sure where I've demonstrated this lack of knowledge of rugby you're always on about? FWIW, like most kiwis, I played from the age of five, up until the age of 16, representing my region at age-level in the process. Not sure where you've got this claim from? Links please.

Equally not sure why you think I know any more than anyone else about Mike Tindall's love life. You'd have to live under a rock (or in Bath) not to have read it about it in any major newspaper.


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## mattie (Nov 25, 2011)

O'Driscoll not a good player.  Conrad Smith not a good player.

_Really_?


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## gabi (Nov 25, 2011)

From memory I said that SBW is a more naturally gifted player than both. I stand by that.


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## mattie (Nov 25, 2011)

He's got a better left hook than either of them, that's for sure.


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## bendeus (Nov 25, 2011)

mattie said:


> I hope my tone indicates this is not something I'm taking in the spirit of jest. Trial - and conviction - by media is reprehensible.



Your tone firmly indicates you have a poker stuck up your arse, Mattie.


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## mattie (Nov 25, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Your tone firmly indicates you have a poker stuck up your arse, Mattie.



I sometimes wonder what brings me to this forum - I used to think it was some sort of shared set of values, that judgement of people because of their placement within a specific cultural group was unacceptable, that each person is as deserving of consideration as any other, that allegiance to any given group is arbitrary and mocking of it is mocking of the notion of allegiance and the stereotypes around the group, not of the group itself.

It seems to be falling down around my ears. Not only have we had a recognised bigot spouting reprehensible views not being called by anyone except me (and acquiescence isn't so far from acceptance, in my eyes) we've now got the bizarre situation of people accepting trial-by-media because it conforms to some stereotypical view they would like to support. Correct me if I'm wrong, but seeing this happen twice doesn't fill me with much hope I've misinterpreted.

I mostly post because you juveniles have the same 12-year-old sense of humour as me. I'd sometimes like a serious discussion, but I suppose I can't have both.


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## bendeus (Nov 25, 2011)

mattie said:


> I sometimes wonder what brings me to this forum - I used to think it was some sort of shared set of values, that judgement of people because of their placement within a specific cultural group was unacceptable, that each person is as deserving of consideration as any other, that allegiance to any given group is arbitrary and mocking of it is mocking of the notion of allegiance and the stereotypes around the group, not of the group itself.
> 
> It seems to be falling down around my ears. Not only have we had a recognised bigot spouting reprehensible views not being called by anyone except me (and acquiescence isn't so far from acceptance, in my eyes) we've now got the bizarre situation of people accepting trial-by-media because it conforms to some stereotypical view they would like to support. Correct me if I'm wrong, but seeing this happen twice doesn't fill me with much hope I've misinterpreted.
> 
> I mostly post because you juveniles have the same 12-year-old sense of humour as me. I'd sometimes like a serious discussion, but I suppose I can't have both.



Or possibly two.


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## gabi (Nov 25, 2011)

mattie said:


> It seems to be falling down around my ears. Not only have we had a recognised bigot spouting reprehensible views not being called by anyone except me (and acquiescence isn't so far from acceptance, in my eyes) we've now got the bizarre situation of people accepting trial-by-media because it conforms to some stereotypical view they would like to support. Correct me if I'm wrong, but seeing this happen twice doesn't fill me with much hope I've misinterpreted.



You are Rob Andrew and I claim my etc...

It isn't trial by media   The trial was behind closed doors. The damning results of that trial were subsequently leaked to the media. Who then reported said results. Which is what the media's supposed to do.

The RFU is poisoned to the core - they need to sack far more than they've already sacked and start afresh. But while people such as yourself and Rob Andrew have their heads firmly stuck up their own backsides the rest of the rugby world will continue to enjoy the schadenfreude, dont worry about that


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## mattie (Nov 25, 2011)

gabi said:


> You are Rob Andrew and I claim my etc...
> 
> It isn't trial by media   The trial was behind closed doors. The damning results of that trial were subsequently leaked to the media. Who then reported said results. Which is what the media's supposed to do.
> 
> The RFU is poisoned to the core - they need to sack far more than they've already sacked and start afresh. But while people such as yourself and Rob Andrew have their heads firmly stuck up their own backsides the rest of the rugby world will continue to enjoy the schadenfreude, dont worry about that



This at least confirms one of my thoughts -you're simply clueless, not just clueless about rugby. You haven't even noticed we're talking about false media allegation, and not the well-documented implosion of RFU - which I've posted on elsewhere, at length.

Three players were accused of inappropriate behaviour. An internal review - and an internal review pulling few punches - found they had no case to answer regarding the allegations. The press had already tried them and convicted them with next to no evidence, only a desire to promote scandal and sell a few more papers. This has happened before, and certain of our members have decided that some England players are rapists based upon a tabloid allegation, subsequently discredited by an internal investigation. At no point was any evidence ever offered to support the allegations, in either case. I personally find trial by media of such a serious matter repulsive, but I seem to be alone in that.

I've already said this, at length, in posts above. It's obvious you don't really get it unless it's in Hello and expressed in headlines of four words or less, but at least I can say I've tried.

Anyway, it's sad that it always comes back to having to explain simple concepts to buffoons, there was once a time that this forum, and rugby and football threads in particular, were fun.


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## sleaterkinney (Nov 25, 2011)

mattie said:


> we've now got the bizarre situation of people accepting trial-by-media because it conforms to some stereotypical view they would like to support. Correct me if I'm wrong, but seeing this happen twice doesn't fill me with much hope I've misinterpreted.


mattie, give us a bit of credit. They behaved like twats, are you denying that?. Do you think they did anything wrong at all?


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## mattie (Nov 25, 2011)

sleaterkinney said:


> mattie, give us a bit of credit. They behaved like twats, are you denying that?. Do you think they did anything wrong at all?



Rape?  Sexual harassment?  No.  Simply, no.  They didn't.

Anyway, this will be my last post, it's been a pleasure chewing fat and arguing the toss, and I wish you all the very best.


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## sleaterkinney (Nov 25, 2011)

mattie said:


> Rape? Sexual harassment? No. Simply, no. They didn't.
> 
> Anyway, this will be my last post, it's been a pleasure chewing fat and arguing the toss, and I wish you all the very best.


I don't think you understand what sexual harassment is tbh. You can't go around making remarks of a sexual nature in situations like that, just because one side sees it as a joke doesn't mean the other does. Don't leave - who will we take the piss out - the six nations is around the corner!


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## bendeus (Nov 26, 2011)

sleaterkinney said:


> I don't think you understand what sexual harassment is tbh. You can't go around making remarks of a sexual nature in situations like that, just because one side sees it as a joke doesn't mean the other does. Don't leave - who will we take the piss out - the six nations is around the corner!



If it is one, it's the first flounce that has made me feel genuinely sad. Mattie, the rugby thread will be the poorer without you. Your response seems disproportionate to the situation (unless you're Martin Johnson). Don't be daft, now.


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## bendeus (Nov 28, 2011)

HRH reinstated to the elite squad and fine reduced on appeal. So much for the tough and uncompromising justice of the RFU,  then.


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## Paulie Tandoori (Nov 28, 2011)

bendeus said:


> HRH reinstated to the elite squad and fine reduced on appeal. So much for the tough and uncompromising justice of the RFU, then.


Sir Rob Andrew in the new year obv....


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## bendeus (Nov 28, 2011)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> Sir Rob Andrew in the new year obv....



He has to be related to Sepp Blatter and Robert Mugabe.

Pleased about Tompkins' leaguer try amidst the death-by-a-thousand-cuts demise of a great union institution on Saturday then, Paulie?


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## gabi (Nov 28, 2011)

mattie said:


> This at least confirms one of my thoughts -you're simply clueless, not just clueless about rugby. You haven't even noticed we're talking about false media allegation, and not the well-documented implosion of RFU - which I've posted on elsewhere, at length.
> 
> Three players were accused of inappropriate behaviour. An internal review - and an internal review pulling few punches - found they had no case to answer regarding the allegations. The press had already tried them and convicted them with next to no evidence, only a desire to promote scandal and sell a few more papers. This has happened before, and certain of our members have decided that some England players are rapists based upon a tabloid allegation, subsequently discredited by an internal investigation. At no point was any evidence ever offered to support the allegations, in either case. I personally find trial by media of such a serious matter repulsive, but I seem to be alone in that.
> 
> ...



Oh dear. Just seen this. 

Just fuck off. Please. You patronising clueless idiot. I really can't be arsed even going anything beyond that.


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## 1927 (Nov 29, 2011)

gabi said:


> Oh dear. Just seen this.
> 
> Just fuck off. Please. You patronising clueless idiot. I really can't be arsed even going anything beyond that.



First time I have EVER read one of your posts and thought, that is bang on the money. mattie's blind defence of the England squad's behaviour is equalled only by your of the ABs, but even you would probably draw the line at sexual harrasment!


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## Paulie Tandoori (Nov 29, 2011)

bendeus said:


> He has to be related to Sepp Blatter and Robert Mugabe.
> 
> Pleased about Tompkins' leaguer try amidst the death-by-a-thousand-cuts demise of a great union institution on Saturday then, Paulie?


i thought he played like a fish out of water from the brief moments of the match that i did watch, had switched off by the time he scored.


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## bendeus (Nov 29, 2011)

gabi said:


> Oh dear. Just seen this.
> 
> Just fuck off. Please. You patronising clueless idiot. I really can't be arsed even going anything beyond that.



He's gone, Gabi. We drove him away


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## bendeus (Nov 29, 2011)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> i thought he played like a fish out of water from the brief moments of the match that i did watch, had switched off by the time he scored.



Aye. Very tough call sticking the boy into that. Rucks and union-style defensive alignments must have fucked with his head badly.

E2A: though being humped by the Aussies should have made him feel right at home


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## flypanam (Dec 1, 2011)

Fucking hell mattie, come back.

The first rule of urban75 is/was 'fuck em all' no?


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## bendeus (Dec 1, 2011)

flypanam said:


> Fucking hell mattie, come back.
> 
> The first rule of urban75 is/was 'fuck em all' no?


He's not even signed in since his flounce. Reckon he means it. It was certainly a bit precipitate.


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## flypanam (Dec 2, 2011)

bendeus said:


> He's not even signed in since his flounce. Reckon he means it. It was certainly a bit precipitate.



Seems so. On the plus side its a rare sign of integrity coming from a Bath/West Ham fan(?)


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## trampie (Dec 4, 2011)

The Octagon said:


> I'm just sad trampie hasn't shown up, he makes ddraig's rantings seem positively royalist.


The only thing i have to say on the world cup is the IRB should never have appointed Monsieur Alain Rolland for the France v Wales semi final as Rollands father is French, it is important in sport to be fair and to be seen to be fair, it cost Wales the world cup as Wales would have beaten France with 15 players and obviously NZ in the final who was second best to France in the final but the IRB appointed a career ref for the final that had already ensured that NZ made the final and then made sure NZ won the final, career refs dont want to be involved in any upsets.


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## The Octagon (Dec 4, 2011)

Lol, never fails.


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## bendeus (Dec 4, 2011)

trampie said:


> The only thing i have to say on the world cup is the IRB should never have appointed Monsieur Alain Rolland for the France v Wales semi final as Rollands father is French, it is important in sport to be fair and to be seen to be fair, it cost Wales the world cup as Wales would have beaten France with 15 players and obviously NZ in the final who was second best to France in the final but the IRB appointed a career ref for the final that had already ensured that NZ made the final and then made sure NZ won the final, career refs dont want to be involved in any upsets.



The fact that you said the only thing you had to say with only one full stop is worthy of commendation.


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## flypanam (Dec 16, 2011)

So Steve Hansen is the new AB's coach.

Welsh lads any thoughts on the 'Fat' one after his time in charge of Wales. Will he fuck up the AB's? Will McCaw stay illegal? Will Ref's lose their fear of the yellow card when the AB's play? Will Mattie come back? Will Harry Windsor ever get to fire one into Kate Windsor?


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## bendeus (Dec 16, 2011)

flypanam said:


> So Steve Hansen is the new AB's coach.
> 
> Welsh lads any thoughts on the 'Fat' one after his time in charge of Wales. Will he fuck up the AB's? Will McCaw stay illegal? Will Ref's lose their fear of the yellow card when the AB's play? Will Mattie come back? Will Harry Windsor ever get to fire one into Kate Windsor?



Best Welsh coach of the modern era, IMO. The shit he took in order to make us competitive: getting rid of nearly all the (pretty useless) old guard and bringing the kids in. We kept on getting fucking proper stuffed, the press were howling with outrage, the kids were out of their depth, but then all of a sudden it clicked against NZ and the Saes in WC 2003, and we started to believe again.

Laid the foundations for both of our grand slams.


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## 1927 (Dec 16, 2011)

bendeus said:


> Best Welsh coach of the modern era, IMO. The shit he took in order to make us competitive: getting rid of nearly all the (pretty useless) old guard and bringing the kids in. We kept on getting fucking proper stuffed, the press were howling with outrage, the kids were out of their depth, but then all of a sudden it clicked against NZ and the Saes in WC 2003, and we started to believe again.
> 
> Laid the foundations for both of our grand slams.



Laid the foundations granted, but putting the bricks together is harder.

Ruddock is the better coach in my opinion.


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## bendeus (Dec 17, 2011)

1927 said:


> Laid the foundations granted, but putting the bricks together is harder.
> 
> Ruddock is the better coach in my opinion.



His record at Worcester and his subsequent roles would say otherwise.


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