# Living without central heating this winter?



## David Clapson (Aug 1, 2022)

Anyone tried this in a UK climate? I thought I might give it a go. I much prefer to wear a T shirt and stick the heating right up, so this will be Challenging. Put more clothes on, and maybe stick huge foil sheets on the ceilings and walls. I'm in a 3rd floor Victorian mansion block flat, which I don't own. It has much thicker walls than a typical London terraced house, hooray. But above me is an uninsulated loft. Some of the windows are single glazed and leaky and rotten. I put double glazing film on the worst one every winter, and it makes a massive difference.


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## existentialist (Aug 1, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> Anyone tried this in a UK climate? I thought I might give it a go. I much prefer to wear a T shirt and stick the heating right up, so this will be Challenging. Put more clothes on, and maybe stick huge foil sheets on the ceilings and walls. I'm in a 3rd floor Victorian mansion block flat, which I don't own. It has much thicker walls than a typical London terraced house, hooray. But above me is an uninsulated loft. Some of the windows are single glazed and leaky and rotten. I put double glazing film on the worst one every winter, and it makes a massive difference.


I don't have central heating. Just a weirdly uncontrollable electric heater, and two more controllable oil-filled radiator heaters, which I bought for £30.

I started practising not having them on at all in February this year, and it was bloody cold, but tolerable. I may get one of those rechargeable heated gilets for this winter.


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## TopCat (Aug 1, 2022)

I’m looking at putting in a sold fuel burner in the front room and only using that.


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## bcuster (Aug 1, 2022)

do you have pets? if so, they may not like it...


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## David Clapson (Aug 1, 2022)

existentialist said:


> I don't have central heating. Just a weirdly uncontrollable electric heater, and two more controllable oil-filled radiator heaters, which I bought for £30.
> 
> I started practising not having them on at all in February this year, and it was bloody cold, but tolerable. I may get one of those rechargeable heated gilets for this winter.


Well done, I'm impressed! I have heated gilet and gloves for motorcycling, but I don't know how useful they are if you're not plugged into the bike's electrical system.


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## spring-peeper (Aug 1, 2022)

Not from the UK, but we put plastic over the windows.  Helps cut down on air lost from the window frames.






When the sun is on a room, we open the curtains for passive solar heating.  Once the sun shifts, we close the curtains to keep the heat in.


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## David Clapson (Aug 1, 2022)

bcuster said:


> do you have pets? if so, they may not like it...


I have a long-haired cat. I think she'll be just fine. I'll get her a jacket, to see if she likes it


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## David Clapson (Aug 1, 2022)

spring-peeper said:


> Not from the UK, but we put plastic over the windows.  Helps cut down on air lost from the window frames.
> 
> View attachment 335599


That's what I use on one of my windows. It's superb.


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## miss direct (Aug 1, 2022)

I couldn't do it. I work from home when I'm in the UK, and my hands just feel so cold on a cold winter's day. Even my nose. It's a miserable way to live.


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## Mrs Miggins (Aug 1, 2022)

Good luck trying but I think you might be surprised just how cold it is with no central heating.


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## gentlegreen (Aug 1, 2022)

I've never had central heating. I have never thought it reasonable to heat more than one room in winter.
I cut my heating bill massively last year by buying a quilted gilet and slippers.
It was a mild winter, but I never once plugged-in my oil-filled radiator - leaving only a fan heater - usually running at 1KW  and intermittently.
But then I live alone ...
My bedroom happens to be very well insulated though - as I found to my cost during the recent heatwave.


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## weltweit (Aug 1, 2022)

I tend to wear more clothes in winter rather than attempt to heat this place. The ceiling above me isn't lagged in any way so any heat I generate just wafts away easily through it. I have tried on occasion the gas powered radiator (CH) but being below a leaky window it doesn't propagate much and costs a fortune, I also tried an electric heater in my office when it gets too cold but that isn't much better. 

Last winter I ended up wearing long johns, a t shirt, shirt, fleece, second fleece, coat etc it made a difference although I felt like the Michelin Man  but I had to do that if I wanted to work from home. And it was one of the reasons I was pleased to return to the office.


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## farmerbarleymow (Aug 1, 2022)

Mrs Miggins said:


> Good luck trying but I think you might be surprised just how cold it is with no central heating.


Yes, and mould is a potential risk in our climate.  If it's too cold it can be dangerous for vulnerable people too.  I'm all for saving money on heating where possible, but in some weather it's just necessary for health reasons.


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## weepiper (Aug 1, 2022)

I grew up in a big draughty 17th century farmhouse with no heating except a coal fire in the living room. We wore a lot of clothes, had a lot of heavy blankets/took a hot water bottle to bed/wore bed socks, fleecy pyjamas and a hat when it was really cold, and tbh, we were just cold a lot. Of course it's possible but it doesn't mean it's enjoyable.


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## kittyP (Aug 1, 2022)

I live in attic conversion in an old Victorian house. 
Freezing in the winter and boiling in the summer 
I mostly only have the heating on for a few hours in the evening but it gets so damp and impossible to to dry washing without some heat. 
Also my bills are all in with the people who live downstairs in the main house (5 adults) so no point in me freezing while paying for them to be warm.


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## farmerbarleymow (Aug 1, 2022)

Although we don't usually have proper winters anymore, many of us will have grown up without central heating and remember how fucking cold it was.  The joy of scraping ice off the inside of the windows, and all the other stuff we had to put up with back then.


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## David Clapson (Aug 1, 2022)

This will remind me of childhood in my attic bedroom, when I wasn't allowed to have the radiator on. I once made the mistake of disclosing that I had chilblains on my toes, and got a proper bollocking for being so stupid as not to wear two pairs of socks in bed.


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## gentlegreen (Aug 1, 2022)

farmerbarleymow said:


> Although we don't usually have proper winters anymore, many of us will have grown up without central heating and remember how fucking cold it was.  The joy of scraping ice off the inside of the windows, and all the other stuff we had to put up with back then.


I was a baby in 62/63 with one open fire in one room and metal framed single glazing - and when I was older, we only had thin woollen blankets - no duvets ...


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## Elpenor (Aug 1, 2022)

As alluded to, thermal long johns are a must. I also wear a pair of fleece lined slippers from “Bedroom Athletics” which are very comfortable. Feet and legs I find harder to keep warm.

Hot water bottle is handy too  as is a blanket round you when watching tv etc


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## gentlegreen (Aug 1, 2022)

Elpenor said:


> As alluded to, thermal king johns are a must. I


Added to my wishlist 
I'm also somehow going to have to find an *electric blanket* that lasts more than a few months.
It helps that I'm getting old anyway, but I was brought up to go to bed early.


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## David Clapson (Aug 1, 2022)

I've got a lovely pair of quilted dungarees, worn by US bomber crews over their flying suits in the Cold War. Can't imagine being cold in those. But  we shall see.


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## farmerbarleymow (Aug 1, 2022)

Tempted to buy one of these to keep the heating bills down


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## Puddy_Tat (Aug 1, 2022)

probably stating the bleeding obvious, but have you investigated if there's any grants available for insulation and so on?

sometimes these things are available to tenants not just owner-occupiers, although likely to need landlord's permission at least.


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## davesgcr (Aug 1, 2022)

Live in a 1930's house , and we re-opened the coal burning fireplace in the front room say 30 years ago , and replaced it with a Stovax wood burner with air wash facilities say 10 years ago, Wonderful  and we never buy wood but in the words of the missed Stanley Edwards "forage it" - free - from neighbours , woods , the odd skip etc. You can control the stove easily and manage the heat output. 

So we put the  gas CH on a bit in the colder weather , then knock it off at say 6pm and just heat the front room - and as we sleep above it , the residual heat keeps going past the chimney flue and sort of warms the front bedroom

(the wood stove takes minimal care and attention - and the fine wood ash gets recycled into the garden or compost bin - <odd nail etc goes in the metal cans recycling> so all in all , great stuff. A hot fire gets quite soporiphic , and aids sleep.


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## MickiQ (Aug 1, 2022)

farmerbarleymow said:


> Although we don't usually have proper winters anymore, many of us will have grown up without central heating and remember how fucking cold it was.  The joy of scraping ice off the inside of the windows, and all the other stuff we had to put up with back then.


I grew up in a house with no central heating, we had a coal (later gas) fire downstairs and if it got really cold at night we had a parrafin heater on the landing.
Fuck going back to that.
My heart goes out to those people who will have no choice but to go without heating this winter


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## Edie (Aug 1, 2022)

I would never have sex without central heating and would be utterly miserable being cold, so it’s a no from me!


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## davesgcr (Aug 1, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> I grew up in a house with no central heating, we had a coal (later gas) fire downstairs and if it got really cold at night we had a parrafin heater on the landing.
> Fuck going back to that.
> My heart goes out to those people who will have no choice but to go without heating this winter



Paraffin heaters were bloody dangerous and caused a good number of house fires etc. 

My old man was an NCB Colliery Manager so we had masses of "free" coal as part of the salary deal , so keeping warm even before double glazing and proper CH was never a problem. It was for many others.


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## rubbershoes (Aug 1, 2022)

My house didn't have central heating when we moved in during the cold winter of 2010. There are two woodburners which got a lot of use but the rest of the house was bloody freezing. 
We put in central heating that year


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## farmerbarleymow (Aug 1, 2022)

davesgcr said:


> My old man was an NCB Colliery Manager so we had masses of "free" coal as part of the salary deal , so keeping warm even before double glazing and proper CH was never a problem. It was for many others.


Remember seeing people collecting coal from Seaham beach back in the day.  Fuel poverty has no doubt always been a problem.


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## David Clapson (Aug 1, 2022)

Puddy_Tat said:


> probably stating the bleeding obvious, but have you investigated if there's any grants available for insulation and so on?
> 
> sometimes these things are available to tenants not just owner-occupiers, although likely to need landlord's permission at least.


Good point. Especially as it would benefit all 20 people in the building


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## iona (Aug 1, 2022)

I have a storage heater that I've not turned on since moving in three years ago. It's a warm building with double glazing and not very drafty window frames though, and I'm young and physically healthy and work outdoors all winter anyway. There's a little fan heater on the bathroom wall that I'll turn on if I'm up really early on the very coldest days, it cuts out after about ten seconds but that's enough to take the chill off the air.

More difficult if you live somewhere colder and damper or are more vulnerable due to health conditions/age/etc obvs.


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## David Clapson (Aug 1, 2022)

iona said:


> work outdoors all winter anyway


What do you do?


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## scifisam (Aug 1, 2022)

You mean you have central heating available but want to live without using it? No, that won't work. You'll be paying a standing charge anyway, and if you decide to be strict and never use the central heating at all, you'll need some sort of heating occasionally, like a fan heater or whatever. That'll cost more.

Minimising heating use is a good idea. Like keeping your bedroom radiator on minimum. Avoiding using central heating at all when you already have it, are paying charges for it, and don't have any alternatives other than expensive fan heaters, is daft.

Living with no heating at all is at best unpleasant and at worst fatal. I spent part of my childhood in a home with no heating except for a gas heater in one room downstairs, and it had severe health consequences (no heating in our climate = damp = respiratory problems), and was generally shit - waking up with icicles on your hair is not actually a good thing.


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## iona (Aug 1, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> What do you do?


Gardening and a bit of farm work. Being physically active outside is actually much easier to stay warm than sitting around indoors.


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## Puddy_Tat (Aug 1, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> Good point. Especially as it would benefit all 20 people in the building



Your local council is best place to start.  Some of these schemes come and go - either time or budget limited.  if there isn't one at the moment, there's a chance there will be another one along some time.

And if the building is as crappy as you say, then there may be some enforcement action council can take against landlord (I'm very out of touch with these things) - some councils do have an officer / team who try to stand up for private tenants.


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## marty21 (Aug 1, 2022)

Mrs Miggins said:


> Good luck trying but I think you might be surprised just how cold it is with no central heating.


I agree , we may try to use it less, but wouldn't go without.


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## l'Otters (Aug 1, 2022)

I didn’t live anywhere that had central heating until I was about 30. It took some getting used to, I preferred a single heat source you could sit right next to and heating more than the room you’re in was weird.

I’m still not clear on whether it’s better to have all the radiators on low, or to turn them all off apart from the room you’re spending the most time in. 

I hate being cold. Grew up with single glazing & a gas fire in the living room, nothing in the rest of the house. I think possibly I hate those little fan heaters more than I hate being cold though.


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## David Clapson (Aug 1, 2022)

scifisam said:


> You mean you have central heating available but want to live without using it? No, that won't work. You'll be paying a standing charge anyway, and if you decide to be strict and never use the central heating at all, you'll need some sort of heating occasionally, like a fan heater or whatever. That'll cost more.
> 
> Minimising heating use is a good idea. Like keeping your bedroom radiator on minimum. Avoiding using central heating at all when you already have it, are paying charges for it, and don't have any alternatives other than expensive fan heaters, is daft.
> 
> Living with no heating at all is at best unpleasant and at worst fatal. I spent part of my childhood in a home with no heating except for a gas heater in one room downstairs, and it had severe health consequences (no heating in our climate = damp = respiratory problems), and was generally shit - waking up with icicles on your hair is not actually a good thing.



I doubt my flat can get to freezing point because it's on the third floor and gets a fair bit of heat from the other flats. We shall see. It's an experiment.  As you say, turning the heating right down may be the best solution. 

I also want to find out the effect of covering indoor surfaces with foil. I've got a stash of coffee bags which need a new use. They're foil-lined plastic, and not recyled in most places.


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## tommers (Aug 1, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> I doubt my flat can get to freezing point because it's on the third floor and gets a fair bit of heat from the other flats. We shall see. It's an experiment.  As you say, turning the heating right down may be the best solution.
> 
> I also want to find out the effect of covering indoor surfaces with foil. I've got a stash of coffee bags which need a new use. They're foil-lined plastic, and not recyled in most places.


What is putting foil on things going to do?


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## oryx (Aug 1, 2022)

I didn't have central heating until we moved into our current house in 2007.

I used to use convector heaters with a timer, an electric blanket and a wall-mounted fan heater in the bathroom, plus a gas fire in the living room. I don't like to be cold but only found it really difficult on a few days of the year. 

Luckily I could afford the bills as I had a cheap rent and was working. I really feel for those who don't have/do either.


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## David Clapson (Aug 1, 2022)

tommers said:


> What is putting foil on things going to do?


Reflect heat?


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## WouldBe (Aug 1, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> Reflect heat?


It would need insulation behind it or the foil would just conduct the heat through to the cold walls.


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## Puddy_Tat (Aug 1, 2022)

I've heard of the idea of putting foil / something shiny behind radiators on (the inside of) outside walls (might think about it if i don't move house before winter)


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## Doctor Carrot (Aug 1, 2022)

I couldn't do it. It gets ruthlessly cold in my flat in the winter, my hands virtually freeze and my teeth chatter. Single paned sash windows in a flat in a 200 odd year old Georgian house. It's practically like being outside at times. The electric heaters keep it warm but they're virtually on all the time because the heat just disappears out the window in minutes. I'm very fortunate to be avoiding it all this winter by being in much warmer climes.


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## David Clapson (Aug 1, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> It would need insulation behind it or the foil would just conduct the heat through to the cold walls.


I envisage a sort of foil/plastic curtain with a small air gap between the curtain and the wall and/or ceiling. The air gap would be insulation. So it's a kind of double glazing for walls and ceilings, with the reflective action of the foil as an added feature


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## xenon (Aug 1, 2022)

I grew up in a house with no central heating. It’s not that uncommon. I’m not from the Victorian era.


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## David Clapson (Aug 1, 2022)

Doctor Carrot said:


> I couldn't do it. It gets ruthlessly cold in my flat in the winter, my hands virtually freeze and my teeth chatter. Single paned sash windows in a flat in a 200 odd year old Georgian house. It's practically like being outside at times. The electric heaters keep it warm but they're virtually on all the time because the heat just disappears out the window in minutes. I'm very fortunate to be avoiding it all this winter by being in much warmer climes.


If you ever spend another winter there, I recommend the glazing film discussed upthread. Depending on how the window frame is recessed into the wall, you might need to fix a simple frame to the wall, similar to a simple poster frame. Very cheap and easy to do, and you can remove it in spring and put it back on the wall in autumn


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## tommers (Aug 1, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> I envisage a sort of foil/plastic curtain with a small air gap between the curtain and the wall and/or ceiling. The air gap would be insulation. So it's a kind of double glazing for walls and ceilings, with the reflective action of the foil as an added feature


If you bring any lady or men friends back they're going to think they're in American Psycho. Warn them first yeah?


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## David Clapson (Aug 1, 2022)

tommers said:


> If you bring any lady or men friends back they're going to think they're in American Psycho. Warn them first yeah?


It will be a proper freak show. Good practise for our post apocalyptic future, life on Mars, all of that shit. I'll invite Elon Musk to visit.


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## The39thStep (Aug 1, 2022)

tommers said:


> What is putting foil on things going to do?


Gives the court some secondary evidence about the subjects state of mind when looking at mental health issues.


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## tommers (Aug 1, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> It will be a proper freak show. Good practise for our post apocalyptic future, life on Mars, all of that shit. I'll invite Elon Musk to visit.


He does that stuff already.


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## two sheds (Aug 1, 2022)

Can the roof space not be insulated? 

I've used Sempatap insulating wallpaper which is really good, my place used to be bitter in winter. I've got no central heating to speak of because I only really use the Rayburn to cook on, but adding a bit more wood afterwards takes the chill off upstairs with the heat coming up the stairs. 

I've used acrylic sheets for secondary glazing attached with magnetic strips round the outside. Works really well and visually you hardly notice they're there.


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## Riklet (Aug 2, 2022)

Who owns the building? Or manages it? Push hard for them to insulate the loft asap!! But if the building owners wont then I would insulate it without asking permission. Just crack on and do it with a mate. Youd have it done in a day. Put 400mm of insulation up there if possible. You can get less irritating and horrible materials nowadays. Or just a good respirator mask.

If you do that your whole building will be immeasurably warmer and you might be able to manage without central heating. Otherwise... I doubt it.

It makes me mad they dont make these rich fuckers insulate buildings and so much energy is being wasted and so many health issues caused all for the lack of £100 in insulation per house...


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## two sheds (Aug 2, 2022)

There are Eco grants for insulation. I tried down here to top up loft insulation but there are no installers in Cornwall.  Local councils sometimes help, too.


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## AnnO'Neemus (Aug 2, 2022)

Yes, get your loft insulated asap. My 1930s/40s apartment is below a flat roof, which used to be asphalt, but when they replaced it about 10 years ago they installed a green roof, which involved extra thick layer of insulation, plus a layer of sedum plants, and my flat is noticeably warmer in winter.


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## campanula (Aug 2, 2022)

I didn't have CH till 2008 or so when we only had a fireplace in one room and a calor heater I used to shunt about to heat the offspring's bedrooms. I bloody hate being cold and am dreading it a bit but I do have access to wood and could just yank the gasfire out (although the council would not be well pleased, I don't fucking care). I have fucking massive windows - entire walls of them so it's always bloody freezing or boiling. Lots of jumpers, I guess. I used to think if it was a choice between heat or food, I would go for heat but while I could live without heating, I can't quite see me managing without dinner. I have hoarded a lot of old velvet fabric over the years so I could do massive, double thick curtains and decamp into one room.


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## David Clapson (Aug 2, 2022)

Riklet said:


> Who owns the building? Or manages it? Push hard for them to insulate the loft asap!! But if the building owners wont then I would insulate it without asking permission. Just crack on and do it with a mate. Youd have it done in a day. Put 400mm of insulation up there if possible. You can get less irritating and horrible materials nowadays. Or just a good respirator mask.
> 
> If you do that your whole building will be immeasurably warmer and you might be able to manage without central heating. Otherwise... I doubt it.
> 
> It makes me mad they dont make these rich fuckers insulate buildings and so much energy is being wasted and so many health issues caused all for the lack of £100 in insulation per house...


My landlord is beyond incompetent. She shares the freehold with a few others, and sometimes she exercises her right to get the common parts maintained. She lives in Paris and never inspects the work or meets the contractors. She gets 3 quotes, chooses the cheapest one, and that's it, she's done her duty. Then she falls out with the contractor, argues about the bill and they disappear, leaving all kinds of horrors. 

When I moved in the kitchen wall had a pair of 1 ft square holes in it. The kitchen had been fitted over the holes. You can't see the holes from any vantage points outside the building. It took me years to work out where the draught was coming from. I never suspected enormous holes in the outside wall. No wonder there's a giant crack in the building and all the flats below are damp.  By then I'd discovered that getting her to fix things would only make them worse, so I just filled half the fucking kitchen with expanding foam. 

We had all the repointing and window frames done. I sent her photos of the worst bits, but she fell out with the contractor before they got to the very worst bit, the north facing walls at the top, i.e. my flat. Some of my window frames are now mostly filler, the rest still have that nasty dark green paint which nobody's used since the '50s.  The mortar between the inner and outer brick courses has chunks missing. The bathroom's sash window has to be opened very gingerly in case the glass falls out. I could go on. She even managed to pay the £30k bill to a push payment fraudster who hacked her email. After that she gave me notice and put the flat on the market on some shitty self-service property site where she wrote the blurb, describing the flat (2 beds on Rushcroft Road) as a penthouse, worth £925k. That didn't work, so we agreed a small rent increase in exchange for me continuing to live here.


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## kittyP (Aug 2, 2022)

Thanks to farmerbarleymow I do have an amazingly warm and snuggly dressing gown to help contend with the coming winter


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## scifisam (Aug 2, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> Reflect heat?



It doesn't work. It will just make you look like a crazy person with tinfoil on their windows.


campanula said:


> I didn't have CH till 2008 or so when we only had a fireplace in one room and a calor heater I used to shunt about to heat the offspring's bedrooms. I bloody hate being cold and am dreading it a bit but I do have access to wood and could just yank the gasfire out (although the council would not be well pleased, I don't fucking care). I have fucking massive windows - entire walls of them so it's always bloody freezing or boiling. Lots of jumpers, I guess. I used to think if it was a choice between heat or food, I would go for heat but while I could live without heating, I can't quite see me managing without dinner. I have hoarded a lot of old velvet fabric over the years so I could do massive, double thick curtains and decamp into one room.


I know (and you know I know!) social housing can be shit, but how come they didn't put heating in till 2008?


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## David Clapson (Aug 2, 2022)

scifisam said:


> It doesn't work. It will just make you look like a crazy person with tinfoil on their windows.


? Living without central heating this winter?


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## Elpenor (Aug 2, 2022)

scifisam said:


> It doesn't work. It will just make you look like a crazy person with tinfoil on their windows.


The neighbour of a friend had it on his windows to block out radiation apparently (he lived near Aldermaston)


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## bcuster (Aug 2, 2022)

farmerbarleymow said:


> Although we don't usually have proper winters anymore, many of us will have grown up without central heating and remember how fucking cold it was.  The joy of scraping ice off the inside of the windows, and all the other stuff we had to put up with back then.


It still gets darn cold here in the winters.  Central heating is a must, indread the utility bills...


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## spring-peeper (Aug 2, 2022)

bcuster said:


> It still gets darn cold here in the winters.  Central heating is a must, indread the utility bills...




Again a no - central heating is not a must.  There are always alternatives.
It gets cold over here in Canada.

We do not have central heating.  We have electric baseboards instead.  We can adjust the temperature for each room.

But we do have a wood furnace in the basement.  When it is going, the floors are warm.  That helps out a lot.


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## existentialist (Aug 2, 2022)

miss direct said:


> I couldn't do it. I work from home when I'm in the UK, and my hands just feel so cold on a cold winter's day. Even my nose. It's a miserable way to live.


Fingerless gloves are your friend, there.


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## girasol (Aug 2, 2022)

Back in the day I lived in a housing association house with no central heating - so most of the house was always cold, as we couldn't afford electric heaters in all the rooms.  I used to put bubble wrap on the windows in my room in for some insulation but it was still cold.  The watered down washing up liquid froze a few times in the kitchen.  I had 8 years of living like that.  At least the rent was cheap. 

All this meant that when I moved to a well insulated house with central heating I had a habit of wearing layers - which means the heating can be off most of the time (I'm at home all day).  I have lost my edge though, and I don't live on my own, so the heating is programmed to come on in the morning and evenings - usually about 5 hours a day.


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## TopCat (Aug 2, 2022)

About five years ago I was quite depressed and ran out of money when it was very cold. No heating for weeks. It was awful. I fear the coming winter. If fuel bills go to £500 a month I will either heat or eat.


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## LDC (Aug 2, 2022)

Depends a lot on the type of house I expect; its build, size, location, how much sun it gets, etc. My grandparents house didn't have central heating and I spent loads of time there when I as a kid and never remember it being unbearable. It was the south of England though, so maybe warmer than for some. They had a coal fire in the lounge they ran all day in the winter and had a storage heater in the hall downstairs that was useless, but nothing in the bedrooms or kitchen. It was a solid Edwardian house though, but quite big as well. We had loads of blankets etc. on the beds and used hot waterbottles when needed.

As an adult have lived and spent time in house with little or no heating, sometimes water in glasses has frozen by the bed at worst. It was manageable, but not lovely, and I can remember having showers and baths to warm up sometimes. Sitting still (if you work at a desk for example) is the hardest to stay warm though, then I'd keep one room warm and use blankets etc. to make it bearable.

I've got soft though, I wouldn't want to live in a house without heating now, as much for the damp as the cold tbh, damp houses are grim.

Yeah, skip the foil on the walls and windows etc...


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## farmerbarleymow (Aug 2, 2022)

kittyP said:


> Thanks to farmerbarleymow I do have an amazingly warm and snuggly dressing gown to help contend with the coming winter


I've still not used mine - it's hanging on the door hooks along with my coats, still with the tags on.


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## pug (Aug 2, 2022)

Draughts are the worst thing for losing heat.


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## bimble (Aug 2, 2022)

did it for 5 or so years, in a shared house in london where i had the attic room and since then i really really appreciate the central heating. i was lucky that my room there had a functioning fireplace but that feeling of having to steel myself for venturing downstairs to go to the frozen kitchen or have a wash in the mouldy bathroom, thats a shit way to live nobody should be having to do that in this rich country.


----------



## miss direct (Aug 2, 2022)

existentialist said:


> Fingerless gloves are your friend, there.


For my nose?


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## Aladdin (Aug 2, 2022)

existentialist said:


> Fingerless gloves are your friend, there.




You can even get fingerless gloves that connect to a laptop and get warm... my sister used them during the first lockdown as her hands were getting very cold. 

This winter is not going to be easy. 
Looks like I will be on TRR by winter and sis the same. We have to keep the house warm as the octogenarians need heat. I'm feeling the cold more too due to health conditions. 

The one good investment has been in winter duvets.  
There are 2 gas fires. The heat from them is good but doesn't last like a solid fuel fire would.
Seriously thinking that we need to swap in a stove instead of one of the gas fires. The gas is also crazy expensive so thats going to stop us using them.

Looking at getting two electric panel heaters. They can be moved around to heat rooms that need them. And we will probably swap the sitting room wih the dining room. The back of the house is that bit warmer with  kitchen heat and sun (if it appears).

The brother arrived the other day wearing a puffa vest that apparently warms itself up. You plug it in and charge batteried or something. He said it was great. Might look into getting them for the octogenarians.

Last winter I had my granny's old fur coat on the bed and it really did keep me warm when heat was off. 
This winter...If things are very bad..I might just wear it in the house.


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## cupid_stunt (Aug 2, 2022)

Looking at my annual gas usage, and including VAT, at last winter's unit price it worked out at around £420pa, on current price - £760, and with another estimated 60% increase in Oct. - £1,217, so almost three times more than last winter. 

* Gas is only used for CH & hot water, loft & walls insulated, windows & doors all double glazed. I've not included standing charges in these figures, because there's nowt I can do about them, and although they have gone up, it's been only by about 1p per day. 

My 30 year old boiler is being replaced at the end of this month, thanks to my wonderful landlord, with a new efficient A-rated combi boiler, the engineer says I should see savings of at least 20-25% / £243-£305pa, although there's an online calculator that thinks it could be as much as £399, so whatever it is it will certainly help.

So, I am estimating it's going to be reduced from £1,217 to around the £900,, just over double last winter, I've got this intention to try and cut down on use by another 25%, bringing it down to a more manageable, but still shocking £675, I would be happy enough with that, rather than go cold.

I'll be working more out the house this year compared to last winter, and even when I am home during the day I'll try not to use it, just putting it on for half an hour in the morning and whatever is required in the evening, but also turning it down a bit when in use, and wearing more cloths & fingerless gloves (as existentialist mentioned above), they do really work in keeping your hands warmer, and thus your fingers too. I think it's doable without too much suffering.

I've looked at the electric use as well, but I can't see any possible savings I can make with that. 

But, I am in a fairly good position compared to those in older buildings and/or with health issues, etc., and clearly more needs to be done by the government to help with this winter, the £66-67 per month discount off energy bills between Oct. & Mar. is just not enough, and let's hope the predictions that prices will start to drop from next spring are right.


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## two sheds (Aug 2, 2022)

campanula said:


> I didn't have CH till 2008 or so when we only had a fireplace in one room and a calor heater I used to shunt about to heat the offspring's bedrooms. I bloody hate being cold and am dreading it a bit but I do have access to wood and could just yank the gasfire out (although the council would not be well pleased, I don't fucking care). I have fucking massive windows - entire walls of them so it's always bloody freezing or boiling. Lots of jumpers, I guess. I used to think if it was a choice between heat or food, I would go for heat but while I could live without heating, I can't quite see me managing without dinner. I have hoarded a lot of old velvet fabric over the years so I could do massive, double thick curtains and decamp into one room.


Don't the council have some sort of Duty of Care to make it more energy efficient/less of a threat to health? 

Probably not, although I wonder whether you or your council could apply for a grant to have it done (some of them are 100% grants I think). Your council may even offer a grant that your council could apply for


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## two sheds (Aug 2, 2022)

spring-peeper said:


> Again a no - central heating is not a must.  There are always alternatives.
> It gets cold over here in Canada.
> 
> We do not have central heating.  We have electric baseboards instead.  We can adjust the temperature for each room.
> ...


That's a form of central heating to be fair. And I can imagine Canadian houses are a lot better insulated than British ones. Much more important to avoid taxing the rich than insulating homes over here.


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## teuchter (Aug 2, 2022)

Not sure the term "central heating" is all that useful here as not everyone agrees what that means.


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## Chilli.s (Aug 2, 2022)

Just been into the woods got a load of free logs

Didnt Italy provide free insulation for loads of its housing stock, reducing consumption of power and helping the climate without burdening its citizens with costs?


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## teuchter (Aug 2, 2022)

How much you feel the cold is affected quite a lot by how active you are. This seems obvious but someone recently told me she never really understood why everyone complained about a certain house being freezing until she had children ... At which point she had extended periods sitting inside and not moving much.

Especially if you're doing something like working from home at a desk job, I think it can help quite a bit to go out for a walk first thing in the morning and maybe at lunchtime too. Helps reduce that feeling of never being able to get a bit warm no matter how many layers you put on.


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## Superdupastupor (Aug 2, 2022)

Thermal leggings, pair of wollen socks, pair of 'warehouse' socks (dunno what to call them- seems like they would go inside steel-cap boots, pulled hallf way up your shins over the top of the leggins, slipper. Thikk fleece trews. Synthetic running top... long sleeved good! couple of jumpers, wollen hat, finger-less gloves.

Got Slovak army surplus jacket, where you can unbutton all the warm layer, when I zip that up  it fit my torso super snug. 

This is what i was brought up with, this is winter.


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## two sheds (Aug 2, 2022)

teuchter said:


> Not sure the term "central heating" is all that useful here as not everyone agrees what that means.


"noun

Any of various heating systems in which a central source of heat is used to distribute heat (and sometimes hot water) throughout a building in a controlled manner.
a heating system in which air or water is heated at a central furnace and sent through the building via vents or pipes and radiators"
As opposed, say, to having a coal fire in the living room and heat only being distributed by warm air from it passing to the other rooms as in my parents house.


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## girasol (Aug 2, 2022)

My husband got a plug that gives the cost for appliances and based on that we got rid of a really old radio that was costing £20 a year just to be on standby, we also now switch off the telly at the plug as that also cost a surprising amount on standby.  Some of the newer appliances are much more energy efficient and barely cost anything.  We got an electric heater for the shed, that is also quite efficient - so a good way to save is to get energy efficient appliances/electric heaters.  They may cost more upfront but save money in the long run.


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## mwgdrwg (Aug 2, 2022)

In my old place I just had the central heating on for an hour before I got up. For the rest of the day I used a Calor Gas heater to keep me wark as I worked from home.


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## teuchter (Aug 2, 2022)

two sheds said:


> "noun
> 
> Any of various heating systems in which a central source of heat is used to distribute heat (and sometimes hot water) throughout a building in a controlled manner.
> a heating system in which air or water is heated at a central furnace and sent through the building via vents or pipes and radiators"
> As opposed, say, to having a coal fire in the living room and heat only being distributed by warm air from it passing to the other rooms as in my parents house.


Electric underfloor heating in each room (for example) wouldn't satisfy those definitions but the end effect would be the same.


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## Aladdin (Aug 2, 2022)

Another vote for thermal underwear and wearing lots of layers etc.

But...if a room gets cold even with all the layers on..its pretty shit. 
I would like to be able to keep rooms we use at a minimum of 16 degrees.


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## two sheds (Aug 2, 2022)

teuchter said:


> Electric underfloor heating in each room (for example) wouldn't satisfy those definitions but the end effect would be the same.


definition 1, central heat source distributing hot water. Arguably definition 2 as well, radiant heat as well as conductive/convective.


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## Artaxerxes (Aug 2, 2022)

farmerbarleymow said:


> Yes, and mould is a potential risk in our climate.  If it's too cold it can be dangerous for vulnerable people too.  I'm all for saving money on heating where possible, but in some weather it's just necessary for health reasons.



This, I'm a bugger for not having the heating on and every rented flat ends up with mouldy windows.

Even with the fucking heating on an hour or half hour a day it happens.


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## teuchter (Aug 2, 2022)

two sheds said:


> definition 1, central heat source distributing hot water. Arguably definition 2 as well, radiant heat as well as conductive/convective.


I mean resistive electric underfloor heating. It doesn't satisfy either.


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## two sheds (Aug 2, 2022)

The insulating Semptatap wallpaper (there's cheaper but this gives a really good hardwearing surface as long as you don't fuck it around, also nice and a bit spongy  ) has been really good at cutting down mould except for the ground floor north wall which has now got a bit - I've moved furniture away from it as much as I can. It also seems breathable which is important for my place. 

Am thinking of adding another layer on that wall. I did read that corners of rooms are susceptible to damp and was tempted to add a sort of triangular piece over those areas but I think it might look a bit strange. 

In the meantime though this stuff is fucking excellent. Just ordered my second bottle because I lent one to my neighbour and now can't find it  









						HG Mould Remover Foam Spray - 500ml
					

Find HG Mould Remover Foam Spray - 500ml at Homebase.




					www.homebase.co.uk
				




doesn't smell as badly of chlorine as the Dettol Mould & Mildew remover which is also very good, but I may have mentioned that the foam is fucking excellent - stops reappearance for a while too.


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## two sheds (Aug 2, 2022)

teuchter said:


> I mean resistive electric underfloor heating. It doesn't satisfy either.


Definition 1: Any of various heating systems in which a central source of heat is used to distribute heat (and sometimes hot water) throughout a building in a controlled manner.

but whatever


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## Storm Fox (Aug 2, 2022)

two sheds said:


> The insulating Semptatap wallpaper (there's cheaper but this gives a really good hardwearing surface as long as you don't fuck it around, also nice and a bit spongy  ) has been really good at cutting down mould except for the ground floor north wall which has now got a bit - I've moved furniture away from it as much as I can. It also seems breathable which is important for my place.
> 
> Am thinking of adding another layer on that wall. I did read that corners of rooms are susceptible to damp and was tempted to add a sort of triangular piece over those areas but I think it might look a bit strange.
> 
> ...


All the HG products I have used are pretty good.


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## two sheds (Aug 2, 2022)

Storm Fox said:


> All the HG products I have used are pretty good.


Oooh ta I've just ordered this: I've not looked in the rayburn oven for a long time although I know it needs doing, which I've so far solved by not looking in it.


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## Storm Fox (Aug 2, 2022)

Their 2 part drain unblocker is fantastic. Although the instructions on the bottle warn it will not remove rubble. 🤣


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## teuchter (Aug 2, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Definition 1: Any of various heating systems in which a central source of heat is used to distribute heat (and sometimes hot water) throughout a building in a controlled manner.
> 
> but whatever


There's no central source of heat. The heat comes from the electrical wires which heat up under the floor, individually in each room.


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## two sheds (Aug 2, 2022)

I got some stuff that was advertised as using natural catalysts for the soakaway pipe that my kitchen waste pipe was connected to for a good 20 years  , I poured several bottles down and with pushing rods up and down did eventually clear it.


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## two sheds (Aug 2, 2022)

teuchter said:


> There's no central source of heat. The heat comes from the electrical wires which heat up under the floor, individually in each room.


Electricity is produced centrally rather than in each room


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## salem (Aug 2, 2022)

I've always worked from home, generally rather than heat the whole flat, I'll keep the central heating off and just occasionally blast the electric heater in the office (it's essentially a single bedroom so just takes a minute to bring up to heat). Good hoodie and warm trousers and perhaps thermals under make life easier although I'm lucky enough not to need fingerless gloves or anything.

The last place I lived was pretty drafty in places when we moved in.


These types of draft excluders cost ~£7 and were great as the front door/hallway was very drafty.

Bought a big piece of 10cm insulation board for a few quid and used it to fill in the letterbox and catflap (both not really used) which made a huge difference. Also put tape and then some insulation over chubb lock (from inside the house so you could still double lock if you were going out).

 But really there isn't one size fits all, you have to just walk around and feel which bits of _your_ house are cold and work backwards from there.

One thing I'm keen to do this year is get some smart TRVs so that I can automatically maintain temperature in different rooms according to a schedule, or occupancy sensors.


Has anyone used them or similar? We got a nest thermostat with out house but of course Google being Google killed off the 'works with nest' system that would have made these integrate well. But I think I can hack something together or swap to a system that does work. It's probably going to be £300+ but as work from home and about to come off a fixed energy deal thinking it might be worth it?


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## teuchter (Aug 2, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Electricity is produced centrally rather than in each room


In that case a coal fire in each room is also central heating especially if the coal all comes from the same mine.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 2, 2022)

teuchter said:


> In that case a coal fire in each room is also central heating especially if the coal all comes from the same mine.


non sequitur


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## teuchter (Aug 2, 2022)

salem said:


> One thing I'm keen to do this year is get some smart TRVs so that I can automatically maintain temperature in different rooms according to a schedule, or occupancy sensors.
> 
> View attachment 335642
> Has anyone used them or similar? We got a nest thermostat with out house but of course Google being Google killed off the 'works with nest' system that would have made these integrate well. But I think I can hack something together or swap to a system that does work. It's probably going to be £300+ but as work from home and about to come off a fixed energy deal thinking it might be worth it?



I use this which is the same principle






						evohome: The smart multi zone thermostat from Honeywell : Get Connected
					

The leading WiFi multi-zone thermostat, helps you make the smart decisions for your heating system. All controlled through your Android or iPhone smartpho…




					getconnected.honeywellhome.com
				




It was a bit of a pain to set up but it's worth it when it works.

The big advantage over non-connected TRVs is that the boiler only fires up when one of the rooms is actually calling for heat. So make sure it's one of those systems.

(I think Nest can't even do that)


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## Leafster (Aug 2, 2022)

salem said:


> One thing I'm keen to do this year is get some smart TRVs so that I can automatically maintain temperature in different rooms according to a schedule, or occupancy sensors.
> 
> View attachment 335642
> Has anyone used them or similar? We got a nest thermostat with out house but of course Google being Google killed off the 'works with nest' system that would have made these integrate well. But I think I can hack something together or swap to a system that does work. It's probably going to be £300+ but as work from home and about to come off a fixed energy deal thinking it might be worth it?


I've got smart TRVs as part of my Loxone Smart Home system. 

I've posted about them on here before. Here's one of my posts.  Does anyone use an Infrared heater 

I think they are a good idea and they do work well. It's early days for me as I haven't had them long enough to compare several winters but I think they have reduced my energy usage - supposedly, they can save you around 25%. However, it'll take a while to recoup the cost. Having said that, with the energy price rises, it's going to take less time for them to pay for themselves.


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## WouldBe (Aug 2, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> I envisage a sort of foil/plastic curtain with a small air gap between the curtain and the wall and/or ceiling. The air gap would be insulation. So it's a kind of double glazing for walls and ceilings, with the reflective action of the foil as an added feature


Would only work if you seal everything so air can't get into the air gap from either side.


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## teuchter (Aug 2, 2022)

Foil reflects IR heat. An air gap or insulation behind it will improve matters (because it won't reflect all of the IR, it will absorb some of it & heat up as a result) but it won't stop it working to some extent.


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## danny la rouge (Aug 2, 2022)

weepiper said:


> I grew up in a big draughty 17th century farmhouse with no heating except a coal fire in the living room. We wore a lot of clothes, had a lot of heavy blankets/took a hot water bottle to bed/wore bed socks, fleecy pyjamas and a hat when it was really cold, and tbh, we were just cold a lot. Of course it's possible but it doesn't mean it's enjoyable.


Indeed.  I grew up in the Scottish Highlands in the 1960s and 70s.  We didn't have central heating.  There was a coal fire in the living room.  If it was too cold to sit in your bedroom, you went into the living room.  In the winter, as kids,  we'd get dressed in front of the fire, to keep warm, and to heat each article of clothing as it went on.  We lived.  We didn't know any different.  I do now, though and I wouldn't want to return to that.  I don't recommend it as an ideal.

I'm not looking forward to this winter.


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## WouldBe (Aug 2, 2022)

teuchter said:


> Electric underfloor heating in each room (for example) wouldn't satisfy those definitions but the end effect would be the same.


So would electric heaters in each room or gas fires or open fires. Nothing central about those either.


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## frogwoman (Aug 2, 2022)

I heard its more efficient to keep the heating on low than keep turning it on and off. I wouldn't recommend it tbh. I'm going to get a heated blanket this winter in case we do have to turn it off


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## teuchter (Aug 2, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> So would electric heaters in each room or gas fires or open fires. Nothing central about those either.


Yes. Which is why I think "central heating" is a bit of a redundant term these days.


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## teuchter (Aug 2, 2022)

frogwoman said:


> I heard its more efficient to keep the heating on low than keep turning it on and off. I wouldn't recommend it tbh. I'm going to get a heated blanket this winter in case we do have to turn it off


This is very controversial and it basically "depends". There is a million-page thread on moneysavingexpert with loads of people arguing about it.


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## frogwoman (Aug 2, 2022)

teuchter said:


> This is very controversial and it basically "depends". There is a million-page thread on moneysavingexpert with loads of people arguing about it.


Something that would never happen here obviously


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## cupid_stunt (Aug 2, 2022)

frogwoman said:


> I heard its more efficient to keep the heating on low than keep turning it on and off.



There's a piece on that here -



> This is a hotly debated one. According to experts at the Energy Saving Trust, the idea it's cheaper to leave the heating on low all day is a myth. They're clear that having the heating on only when you need it is, in the long run, the best way to save energy, and therefore money. (A timer's best as your thermostat turns your heating on and off to keep your home at the temperature you set.)
> 
> The key thing to understand here is that it's all about the total amount of energy required to heat your home.
> 
> ...



moneysavingexpert


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## Mrs Miggins (Aug 2, 2022)

frogwoman said:


> I heard its more efficient to keep the heating on low than keep turning it on and off. I wouldn't recommend it tbh. I'm going to get a heated blanket this winter in case we do have to turn it off


I believe that works well if your home is very well insulated so it can hang on to the heat. I tried it one year and can't remember much difference in the size of my gas bill but my home is not well insulated at the front. Thin walls and single glazed sash windows.

It was warm all the time though. Just had the thermostat on at I think 16C all the time and turned it up a bit if I was at home all day and it was cold.

I won't be doing experiments like that this year though as the bills are going to be eye watering as it is.


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## teuchter (Aug 2, 2022)

Mrs Miggins said:


> I believe that works well if your home is very well insulated so it can hang on to the heat.


Unfortunately it's not as simple as that


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## frogwoman (Aug 2, 2022)

Yeah I don't think the house is that well insulated although the downstairs was nice and cool when it was 40 outside. My room is usually pretty warm tbh because of where it's positioned in the house


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## two sheds (Aug 2, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> There's a piece on that here -
> 
> They advocate keeping the heating on low all day, turning all radiator valves up to the max and the boiler down to the minimum, and say the problem with turning the heating on and off is that every time it's turned off, condensation collects within the walls. This condensation can help conduct heat outside the home, they say – meaning you leak heat more quickly and so will use more energy as a result.
> 
> moneysavingexpert


Yes I'd always thought would be best to heat intermittently but then read that - also that it takes more heat to drive off the condensation.


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## WouldBe (Aug 2, 2022)

teuchter said:


> Yes. Which is why I think "central heating" is a bit of a redundant term these days.


The other important feature of central heating is that it can be controlled from a single point. You want the heating on you press a button you don't have to go round lighting fires in each room or turning on underfloor heating in each room.


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## marty21 (Aug 2, 2022)

xenon said:


> I grew up in a house with no central heating. It’s not that uncommon. I’m not from the Victorian era.


Me too , it was ace when we finally got radiators though , no more frost on the inside of the windows.


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## teuchter (Aug 2, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> The other important feature of central heating is that it can be controlled from a single point. You want the heating on you press a button you don't have to go round lighting fires in each room or turning on underfloor heating in each room.


These days a more useful distinction is between


systems that can be controlled centrally _and_ using timed programming _and_ thermostats _and_ in a properly zoned way
systems that can't do all of those things

Because that's what can have significant impact on energy efficiency.

"Central heating" can fall into either of those categories, as can non "central heating". Which is why I think it's a redundant term.

When central heating first became a thing it was targetted more at convenience and comfort than energy efficiency.


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## two sheds (Aug 2, 2022)

> _Central Heating _Grants are available from the Government's ECO4 Scheme​_Central Heating_ Grants are available to pay for the installation of gas _central heating _in homes which have never had _central heating_ before.








						Central Heating Grants from the Government's ECO4 Scheme
					

Central Heating Grants to install a full central heating system if your home has never had central heating before. Central Heating Grants available now.




					centralheatinggrants.co.uk
				




You may want to contact them and inform them of their terminological inexactitude. The whole industry could fall apart otherwise


----------



## Sasaferrato (Aug 2, 2022)

danny la rouge said:


> Indeed.  I grew up in the Scottish Highlands in the 1960s and 70s.  We didn't have central heating.  There was a coal fire in the living room.  If it was too cold to sit in your bedroom, you went into the living room.  In the winter, as kids,  we'd get dressed in front of the fire, to keep warm, and to heat each article of clothing as it went on.  We lived.  We didn't know any different.  I do now, though and I wouldn't want to return to that.  I don't recommend it as an ideal.
> 
> I'm not looking forward to this winter.


Whereabouts in the Highlands Danny? We lived in Fort William, which despite the Gulf Stream led to iced windows in the Winter.


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## two sheds (Aug 2, 2022)

salem said:


> I've always worked from home, generally rather than heat the whole flat, I'll keep the central heating off and just occasionally blast the electric heater in the office (it's essentially a single bedroom so just takes a minute to bring up to heat). Good hoodie and warm trousers and perhaps thermals under make life easier although I'm lucky enough not to need fingerless gloves or anything.
> 
> The last place I lived was pretty drafty in places when we moved in.
> 
> ...


that's a really valuable post, ta, I shall make a checklist from it


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## Sasaferrato (Aug 2, 2022)

We have the thermostat at 21C in the Winter, switched off at about 20:00, because there is enough residual warmth to get to bedtime. 

Fleeces are also worn.


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## teuchter (Aug 2, 2022)

Sasaferrato said:


> Whereabouts in the Highlands Danny? We lived in Fort William, which despite the Gulf Stream led to iced windows in the Winter.


I too grew up in the Highlands, 70s bungalow with little insulation, very primitive double glazing. Regularly had frozen condensation on the insides of the windows each morning.

It had a system of hot air blown through ducts under the floor, into the rooms via vents in the floor. The heat came from a kind of central, electric storage heater. It never really worked very well and so heating in reality was mainly a collection of electric bar heaters. No mains gas anywhere nearby.

In that same house I've experienced many power cuts on cold winter nights, and on one occasion I actually found it slightly frightening how quickly you could feel the cold coming in. It's not unusual for it to drop below -10 outside. Recorded minus-20-something once.


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## Artaxerxes (Aug 2, 2022)

If you do have the heating off you’ll need to have your windows open a crack in the mornings on dry-ish days - the breeze dries out the condensation on them and the wall edges. A couple of hours should do it.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Aug 2, 2022)

teuchter said:


> I too grew up in the Highlands, 70s bungalow with little insulation, very primitive double glazing. Regularly had frozen condensation on the insides of the windows each morning.
> 
> It had a system of hot air blown through ducts under the floor, into the rooms via vents in the floor. The heat came from a kind of central, electric storage heater. It never really worked very well and so heating in reality was mainly a collection of electric bar heaters. No mains gas anywhere nearby.
> 
> In that same house I've experienced many power cuts on cold winter nights, and on one occasion I actually found it slightly frightening how quickly you could feel the cold coming in. It's not unusual for it to drop below -10 outside. Recorded minus-20-something once.



Our house (Mrs Sas and me, not my parent's house), had the same system, and fucking useless it was. It was an SSHA house, I would imagine they all had the same heating system.


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## Sasaferrato (Aug 2, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> If you do have the heating off you’ll need to have your windows open a crack in the mornings on dry-ish days - the breeze dries out the condensation on them and the wall edges. A couple of hours should do it.



That is the bugger, isn't it? If rooms get too cold for too long, they get damp.


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## Artaxerxes (Aug 2, 2022)

Sasaferrato said:


> That is the bugger, isn't it? If rooms get too cold for too long, they get damp.



It’s early mornings and evenings, if your inside it warms up a little regardless and it all hits the colder windows and next thing you know it’s damp. 

I’ve always been of the stance that heating is a last resort (I’m a cheap fucker) so it’s a problem I’ve had to deal with over the last couple of decades since moving out. Not always successfully in this climate or with the shoddy design of British flats.


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## two sheds (Aug 2, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> If you do have the heating off you’ll need to have your windows open a crack in the mornings on dry-ish days - the breeze dries out the condensation on them and the wall edges. A couple of hours should do it.


Added to checklist  although that's actually difficult because of the secondary glazing. I could perhaps open top of dutch door downstairs and velux window upstairs.


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## danny la rouge (Aug 2, 2022)

Sasaferrato said:


> Whereabouts in the Highlands Danny? We lived in Fort William, which despite the Gulf Stream led to iced windows in the Winter.


It’s too small a place to announce on the boards. That would lead to my immediate identification!  But you do know, we’ve discussed it before.

It’s in the geological Highlands rather than Highland Region, the local government division.


----------



## AnnaKarpik (Aug 2, 2022)

teuchter said:


> How much you feel the cold is affected quite a lot by how active you are. This seems obvious but someone recently told me she never really understood why everyone complained about a certain house being freezing until she had children ... At which point she had extended periods sitting inside and not moving much.
> 
> Especially if you're doing something like working from home at a desk job, I think it can help quite a bit to go out for a walk first thing in the morning and maybe at lunchtime too. Helps reduce that feeling of never being able to get a bit warm no matter how many layers you put on.


I do this, working from home (with no CH) I miss the walk from the car to the office so I go for a walk around the village instead twice a day.


----------



## David Clapson (Aug 2, 2022)

I'm sure I've read of eco homes which stay warm using just the radiated heat from the occupants. But perhaps I'm imagining that. Are there any low cost insulation tips which could be used by tenants with minimal involvement of landlords?  Somebody upthread mentioned Sempatap insulating wallpaper, which is £20 per square metre. And Friends of the Earth has this to say:


> "internal thin wall insulation...can be as much as 70-80% as effective and can be DIY fitted. A recent government report rated 1.3cm thick high-tech aerogel  best of the bunch (much better than the latex rolls I’ve fitted) and only costs around £80 per M2. Woodfibre (Pavadry  or Diffutherm ) works just as well, is cheaper and has a lower carbon footprint but has to be double the thickness to deliver the same energy saving" .


 Eco heating: what are the options? | Friends of the Earth

My cat is a little furnace, always very warm to the touch. If I could use her as a heater it would be less distressing to pay a whole pound per day for her prescription food.


----------



## Siouxsie (Aug 2, 2022)

I've never really been a fan of modern central heating, it dries my skin out and makes me nesh  
I grew up in the an old 5 bedroom farmhouse, massive slate floored, 12" thick stone walled kitchen with only an Aga for our heating, water and cooking.
I can't remember feeling cold as a child but looking back on it I must have been, but we just got on with it......playing noughts & crosses on the iced up  window panes as I lay in bed with my sister was a game  to us  We always wore socks and flannelette pyjamas, my sisters and brothers had hot water bottles, I used to have our massive, long haired German Shepherd in bed with me, whether I wanted him there or not!  he was like a big cuddly bear and I never felt cold snuggled up to him 🥰
My parents are still there  and the first thing I always do on cold days when I visit, which is every day! is take off my wellies and sit with my feet in the warming oven. Thinking of it now my mums house never feels cold. 
Mine though, a 5 minute walk down the lane, has modern heating and radiators all over the cottage but it still feels a bit nippy on winter days.
Myself and Mr S will ride what the weather has in store for us, if it gets unhealthily cold we will put the heating on until we feel that it's not needed and on the days/ nights it's not too bad we'll wrap up well, I'll run on the treadmill to get my circulation kicked in and we'll watch telly/ internet in bed with 15tog duvets and tealights dotted about to add to the ambience along with icicle tipped noses 
We'll cope. 
Myself and my siblings make sure my parents oil tank is serviced and full coming up to winter....that makes me feel settled and happy knowing they will be warm if nothing else

Please don't compromise your long term health for the sake of a few extra pounds, it really isn't worth it in the long run....yes I know that's easy for me to say, I'm not in other peoples situations.


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## existentialist (Aug 2, 2022)

bcuster said:


> do you have pets? if so, they may not like it...


I have houserabbits. They don't, frankly, seem to give a fuck


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## teuchter (Aug 2, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> I'm sure I've read of eco homes which stay warm using just the radiated heat from the occupants.


Yes, eg built to the passivhaus standard






						What is Passivhaus?
					

What is Passivhaus?



					www.passivhaustrust.org.uk
				






David Clapson said:


> Are there any low cost insulation tips which could be used by tenants with minimal involvement of landlords?


Not that would get you anywhere near what you'd need to heat completely passively. But obviously any improvements are good, compared with nothing. Trying to eliminate significant drafts (leaky windows, under doors, etc) is a good place to start.


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## teuchter (Aug 2, 2022)

Siouxsie said:


> I've never really been a fan of modern central heating, it dries my skin out and makes me nesh


This is another example of the term "central heating" being un-useful.

If some form of heating causes problems like this, it's not likely to be to do with whether or not it's "central heating" - more likely the type of heaters, how they are distributed, and other things like the construction of the building and how it is ventilated.


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## gentlegreen (Aug 2, 2022)

TopCat said:


> I’m looking at putting in a sold fuel burner in the front room and only using that.


You might want to do some research.
Electricity is expensive but it's 100 percent efficient in terms of converting to heat - in the most extreme example as an electric blanket.
I may go to bed early in winter to save energy, but often it's lying on the bed with the covers off and lightly dressed and getting all the warmth I need from 100 watts ..
Even before you get to the issues about doing the polluting in an urban environment.


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## muscovyduck (Aug 2, 2022)

As has already been written about to death on this thread, not heating your house in winter is technically do-able, but usually a false economy. You're looking at more time off work sick for a start and higher chance of illness that has long lasting impact on your ability to make or save money (like bad pneumonia or similar). As well as problems with mold and so on

If possible, after insulation and so on, you're better off trying to pick up extra work to pay for the heating. But if this is an option this is something you need to think about now while we're on the approach to Christmas and the economy is still functioning rather than January when everything slumps.


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## gentlegreen (Aug 2, 2022)

muscovyduck said:


> As has already been written about to death on this thread, not heating your house in winter is technically do-able, but usually a false economy. You're looking at more time off work sick for a start and higher chance of illness that has long lasting impact on your ability to make or save money (like bad pneumonia or similar).


really ?

Good grief. If I was that fragile I would give up on life.
I hate to sound like a boomer, but I was raised in an uninsulated unheated home in the 60s and 70s when we actually had winters.
I was a baby during one of the worst winters of the last century.


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## WouldBe (Aug 2, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> Are there any low cost insulation tips which could be used by tenants with minimal involvement of landlords?


Set up a large arctic grade tent in your living room. You can always take it with you when you move.


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## Leafster (Aug 2, 2022)

TopCat said:


> I’m looking at putting in a sold fuel burner in the front room and only using that.





gentlegreen said:


> You might want to do some research.
> Electricity is expensive but it's 100 percent efficient in terms of converting to heat - in the most extreme example as an electric blanket.
> I may go to bed early in winter to save energy, but often it's lying on the bed with the covers off and lightly dressed and getting all the warmth I need from 100 watts ..
> Even before you get to the issues about doing the polluting in an urban environment.


One of the reasons I keep thinking about a solid fuel burner is to have a back up if my primary heating fails. My old gas boiler broke down twice (the second was terminal) but in both instances I had no heat for almost a week in the winter (they ALWAYS breakdown in the winter, never when it's warmer!) I was able to use a couple of fan heaters each time the boiler broke down but it wasn't ideal. 

However, there's also the possibility of power cuts (I know the chances are remote) but with either gas or just electric heating you need electricity for them to work. A solid fuel alternative would provide that little extra bit of insurance. 

I live on a wooded hillside and there isn't a year that goes by without some of my neighbours having tree surgeons to attend to their trees so I'd probably be joining my other neighbours with wood burners scavenging the logs.


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## bellaozzydog (Aug 2, 2022)

I was on a key meter last winter and it was costing me 49 quid a fortnight in gas to keep the place reasonably warm. In hindsight that was probably quite cheap

4 bed Victorian maisonette with old rattling windows is going to sink me I reckon.

I’ve got a fireplace in every room which I suppose I could try and upgrade/service/put wood burner in but it’s all gonna cost whatever I do

Small savings graces, I live on the coast in a micro climate which rarely gets frost. Downstairs shops emit heat and should help a bit


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## two sheds (Aug 2, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> I'm sure I've read of eco homes which stay warm using just the radiated heat from the occupants. But perhaps I'm imagining that. Are there any low cost insulation tips which could be used by tenants with minimal involvement of landlords?  Somebody upthread mentioned Sempatap insulating wallpaper, which is £20 per square metre. And Friends of the Earth has this to say:
> 
> Eco heating: what are the options? | Friends of the Earth
> 
> My cat is a little furnace, always very warm to the touch. If I could use her as a heater it would be less distressing to pay a whole pound per day for her prescription food.



They look interesting.





__





						PAVADRY - Soprema United Kingdom
					

PAVADRY is a natural and ecological, innovative thermal insulation board based on wood fibre bonded with hardboard for dry fit installation. The integrated vapour control, together with the hygroscopic properties of the wood fibre, ensures a controlled moisture transport which prevents the...




					www.soprema.co.uk
				












						Internal and external wood fibre insulation boards | Diffutherm
					

Diffutherm wood fibre insulation boards are the original, renderable, wet-process wood fibre insulation board, used for over 30 years. Diffutherm is...




					www.backtoearth.co.uk
				




Not sure whether they'd work for me, though. The Pavadry seems to have a vapour control layer (foil or plastic as I understand it) which I'm not sure whether it is breathable, which I'd need.

The Diffutherm says it needs to be fixed to flat walls which I don't think I have because of the age of the place.

I did look at other materials recently but they seemed to have foil vapour barriers or need plasterboard over the top - Sempatech you can paint or wallpaper straight onto it.  I'm not sure how Sempatech works without a vapour barrier but it seems to, and as I recall the adhesive has mould inhibitor in it.


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## muscovyduck (Aug 2, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> really ?
> 
> Good grief. If I was that fragile I would give up on life.
> I hate to sound like a boomer, but I was raised in an uninsulated unheated home in the 60s and 70s when we actually had winters.
> I was a baby during one of the worst winters of the last century.


Read the thread mate, we've all lived in uninsulated unheated shitholes


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## Artaxerxes (Aug 2, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> really ?
> 
> Good grief. If I was that fragile I would give up on life.
> I hate to sound like a boomer, but I was raised in an uninsulated unheated home in the 60s and 70s when we actually had winters.
> I was a baby during one of the worst winters of the last century.



Yes but a) you had a better immune system as a kid b) your parents probably made sacrifices to keep you warm and c) your current house may well be of a lower standard than the one you grew up in.


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## two sheds (Aug 2, 2022)

And people with asthma and the like are susceptible, as are ..... older people


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## gentlegreen (Aug 2, 2022)

.


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## two sheds (Aug 2, 2022)

I got flu when I had no heating in the house over winter. It was fucking dire.


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## gentlegreen (Aug 2, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> Yes but a) you had a better immune system as a kid b) your parents probably made sacrifices to keep you warm and c) your current house may well be of a lower standard than the one you grew up in.


Did you miss what I said. ?
It was a badly built new house with one open fire.


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## gentlegreen (Aug 2, 2022)

two sheds said:


> I got flu when I had no heating in the house over winter. It was fucking dire.


The worst flu I ever had in recent decades  was in 2019 - in April.
I used to get flu because I was working in a university, not because I sometimes got cold.


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## two sheds (Aug 2, 2022)

I don't think I got flu because I was cold, though, it just made it feel a lot worse.


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## David Clapson (Aug 2, 2022)

Part of it is motivation. If you're on a small boat or up a mountain because you've chosen to have a bit of challenging recreation, you can be a bit gung-ho when going without heat. You put on all your expensive high tech layers and congratulate yourself because you're not dying. Not many people can sustain that enthusiasm for hardship when they're at home. Although there are one or two in this thread.....


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## gentlegreen (Aug 2, 2022)

two sheds said:


> I don't think I got flu because I was cold, though, it just made it feel a lot worse.


But you make your own heat when you have flu 
I've upped my game recently.
When I lived downstairs where it was draughty and unventilated, I used to have to treat it like camping and sleep in a sleeping bag.
Electric blankets and duvets FTW -


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## gentlegreen (Aug 2, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> Part of it is motivation. If you're on a small boat or up a mountain because you've chosen to have a bit of challenging recreation, you can be a bit gung-ho when going without heat. You put on all your expensive high tech layers and congratulate yourself because you're not dying. Not many people can sustain that enthusiasm for hardship when they're at home. Although there are one or two in this thread.....


Yes it's mostly psychology.
And moving a bit.


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## David Clapson (Aug 2, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> Set up a large arctic grade tent in your living room. You can always take it with you when you move.


Actually that's germane to my other motive for this experiment, which is that I want to live in a campervan without using much fuel. I'm imagining wintering in southern europe and (possibly) not installing one of those special campervan heaters. But there will inevitably be cold spells, perhaps if I need to nip back to London in January for some reason. So I'm wondering what strategy would be best. The vehicle is quite small, similar size to a VW bus. So I imagine it wouldn't be difficult to insulate it to arctic tent standard. Also the (very hot) cat will be with me.


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## Riklet (Aug 2, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> My landlord is beyond incompetent. She shares the freehold with a few others, and sometimes she exercises her right to get the common parts maintained. She lives in Paris and never inspects the work or meets the contractors. She gets 3 quotes, chooses the cheapest one, and that's it, she's done her duty. Then she falls out with the contractor, argues about the bill and they disappear, leaving all kinds of horrors.
> 
> When I moved in the kitchen wall had a pair of 1 ft square holes in it. The kitchen had been fitted over the holes. You can't see the holes from any vantage points outside the building. It took me years to work out where the draught was coming from. I never suspected enormous holes in the outside wall. No wonder there's a giant crack in the building and all the flats below are damp.  By then I'd discovered that getting her to fix things would only make them worse, so I just filled half the fucking kitchen with expanding foam.
> 
> We had all the repointing and window frames done. I sent her photos of the worst bits, but she fell out with the contractor before they got to the very worst bit, the north facing walls at the top, i.e. my flat. Some of my window frames are now mostly filler, the rest still have that nasty dark green paint which nobody's used since the '50s.  The mortar between the inner and outer brick courses has chunks missing. The bathroom's sash window has to be opened very gingerly in case the glass falls out. I could go on. She even managed to pay the £30k bill to a push payment fraudster who hacked her email. After that she gave me notice and put the flat on the market on some shitty self-service property site where she wrote the blurb, describing the flat (2 beds on Rushcroft Road) as a penthouse, worth £925k. That didn't work, so we agreed a small rent increase in exchange for me continuing to live here.



You could write a letter to all the freeholders firmly requesting they insulate the loft asap. And get all the flats to sign it.

IDK if theres any pressure that can be put on landlords to do this yet. In the future they are talking about making property level C on the EPC minimum after 2026 to rent. You could mention this and say it'll benefit them yada yada.

Are you able to get up there and just do it yerself? fuck all this ecogrant bullshit its just designed to pump money into shoddy companies with badly trained bods. Roof insulation is dead cheap. £25 each from all the neighbours and you could do the whole loft! I would probs just do it.


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## geminisnake (Aug 2, 2022)

TopCat said:


> I’m looking at putting in a sold fuel burner in the front room and only using that.


the rest of your home will be freezing, I know this from when we've had power cuts(the leccy pump heats the radiators)  It took 3 days for the house to reheat after the outage last November.
We don't have central heating and I will not be doing without a fire, feck that!


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## Sasaferrato (Aug 2, 2022)

two sheds said:


> And people with asthma and the like are susceptible, as are ..... older people



I must say that it is with deep reluctance that I have to accept that I'm on the edge of being an 'older person'. I do feel the cold now, which I didn't in years past.


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## cupid_stunt (Aug 2, 2022)

Sasaferrato said:


> I must say that it is with deep reluctance that I have to accept that I'm on the edge of being an 'older person'. I do feel the cold now, which I didn't in years past.



On the edge?


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## Riklet (Aug 2, 2022)

I have a stingy friend who's a doctor who put 800mm of insulation in his loft (victorian flat/house) and then basically didnt use the heating all winter. He was convinced it was warm. 17 degrees is pretty good when it costs nowt but it's not fucking warm when youre sitting around all day!

IMO its also v important to weigh up any structural issues or damp from not heating a home. these could be a lot more than just using the heating 2-3h a day, even with the bills increasing.


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## cesare (Aug 2, 2022)

Would be fun to add a poll with age ranges.


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## David Clapson (Aug 2, 2022)

Riklet said:


> I have a stingy friend who's a doctor who put 800mm of insulation in his loft (victorian flat/house) and then basically didnt use the heating all winter. He was convinced it was warm. 17 degrees is pretty good when it costs nowt but it's not fucking warm when youre sitting around all day!
> 
> IMO its also v important to weigh up any structural issues or damp from not heating a home. these could be a lot more than just using the heating 2-3h a day, even with the bills increasing.


17 C? 62.6 F ? That's NOT cold!


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## Puddy_Tat (Aug 2, 2022)

teuchter said:


> It had a system of hot air blown through ducts under the floor, into the rooms via vents in the floor. The heat came from a kind of central, electric storage heater. It never really worked very well and so heating in reality was mainly a collection of electric bar heaters. No mains gas anywhere nearby.



I had similar but fed from a gas boiler at previous house (built early 80s.)  It wasn't that great, and the cats worked out that the warmest place in the house was about 3/4 of the way up the stairs - i knew it was cold if they ended up there...

current flat clearly had similar at one time, but it had been replaced with conventional gas central heating / radiators before i moved here.


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## cesare (Aug 2, 2022)

Riklet said:


> I have a stingy friend who's a doctor who put 800mm of insulation in his loft (victorian flat/house) and then basically didnt use the heating all winter. He was convinced it was warm. 17 degrees is pretty good when it costs nowt but it's not fucking warm when youre sitting around all day!
> 
> IMO its also v important to weigh up any structural issues or damp from not heating a home. these could be a lot more than just using the heating 2-3h a day, even with the bills increasing.


17 even degrees is fine even if WFH. 17 degrees with various icy draughts/blasts, not so much.


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## Riklet (Aug 2, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> 17 C? 62.6 F ? That's NOT cold!


You wont die unless youre old and infirm but its hardly warm. No way I could live somewhere thats less than 18-19 degrees for months on end.


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## WouldBe (Aug 2, 2022)

geminisnake said:


> the rest of your home will be freezing, I know this from when we've had power cuts(the leccy pump heats the radiators)  It took 3 days for the house to reheat after the outage last November.
> We don't have central heating and I will not be doing without a fire, feck that!


Before I had my thermal store put in the wood burning boiler stove could gravity feed all the upstairs radiators if there was a power cut.


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## cesare (Aug 2, 2022)

Riklet said:


> You wont die unless youre old and infirm but its hardly warm. No way I could live somewhere thats less than 18-19 degrees for months on end.


I accept I run cold but no way 18 degrees is cold enough to require heating ,(imo)

R U a Cactus


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## kittyP (Aug 2, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> 17 C? 62.6 F ? That's NOT cold!


It can feel it though, to some people.


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## existentialist (Aug 2, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> Actually that's germane to my other motive for this experiment, which is that I want to live in a campervan without using much fuel. I'm imagining wintering in southern europe and (possibly) not installing one of those special campervan heaters. But there will inevitably be cold spells, perhaps if I need to nip back to London in January for some reason. So I'm wondering what strategy would be best. The vehicle is quite small, similar size to a VW bus. So I imagine it wouldn't be difficult to insulate it to arctic tent standard. Also the (very hot) cat will be with me.


If you think condensation's going to be a problem in an airtight flat (spoiler: it is), that is NOTHING to the problem it is going to be in an airtight van, assuming you can get the insulation anywhere near up to snuff to ensure that a "building" made of steel is going to be self-sustainably warm.


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## kittyP (Aug 2, 2022)

We have to be careful of telling others that they are wrong for experiencing certain temperatures differently to ones self.

My bedroom radiator is never on (unless it's for frost protection if below 0° and I quick blast a fan heater to warm the room to dry washing) but I'm lucky that I'm someone who runs reasonably warm and I am lucky that I have a great feather duvet and I'm lucky that I like sleeping in a cold room.

But when it comes to my living room/kitchen it does get really cold in the evenings in winter when watching TV, even when (as said) Im quite a warm person and I've got fleecy trousers and zip up and cozy dressing gown and slippers and blanket, and that's with the heating on for a few hours here and there.

For some people living without heating just adds more misery to an already miserable existence.
Especially those in bad housing already and with disabilities, mental health problems etc.


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## Leafster (Aug 2, 2022)

Puddy_Tat said:


> I had similar but fed from a gas boiler at previous house (built early 80s.)  It wasn't that great, and the cats worked out that the warmest place in the house was about 3/4 of the way up the stairs - i knew it was cold if they ended up there...
> 
> current flat clearly had similar at one time, but it had been replaced with conventional gas central heating / radiators before i moved here.


I had gas-fired warm air heating in my flat. I lived there for 25 years and I loved it.  It took me aged to get used to wet radiators in my current house. I still think warm air heating is better. There’s no problem with great big radiators taking up wall space and restricting where you can put your furniture. Warm air heating heats the rooms up quicker and the air filters in the system keep the air cleaner. The circulation air also reduces the risk of condensation. 

Not that I had it, but their was an option to include air conditioning in the unit which would have been great with the recent extreme heat event we’ve just had. 

The downside is very few heating engineers in the UK actually understand it so servicing it was a bit problematic. It think that’s why it was often replaced with wet systems which actually have more problems.


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## David Clapson (Aug 2, 2022)

existentialist said:


> If you think condensation's going to be a problem in an airtight flat (spoiler: it is), that is NOTHING to the problem it is going to be in an airtight van, assuming you can get the insulation anywhere near up to snuff to ensure that a "building" made of steel is going to be self-sustainably warm.


Yes, I read that somewhere. Some say the answer is to insulate the van with wool.


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## Riklet (Aug 2, 2022)

cesare said:


> I accept I run cold but no way 18 degrees is cold enough to require heating ,(imo)
> 
> R U a Cactus



I am definitely a cactus. I lived in Spain for 8 years!

And id rather be poor than cold for sure. Good job I guess cos im definitely going to be this winter :/ Need to finish the roof insulation I started months ago.....


----------



## cesare (Aug 2, 2022)

Riklet said:


> I am definitely a cactus. I lived in Spain for 8 years!
> 
> And id rather be poor than cold for sure. Good job I guess cos im definitely going to be this winter :/ Need to finish the roof insulation I started months ago.....


After living in Spain are you now acclimatised to the UK? Does your inner core temp change with exercise? Are you able to do that exercise thing? 

Omg, sorry about the interrogation 😮


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## teuchter (Aug 2, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> Yes, I read that somewhere. Some say the answer is to insulate the van with wool.


That's not going to help because even if humidity can get through the wool to done extent, it's still going to meet the steel.

You can do some "buffering" with lining materials that can take up some of the moisture when it's at its peak and then release it slowly at other times but really the correct answer is controlled ventilation.

Dunno if you can get a heat-exchanger vent fan that would be small enough to work in a van.


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## existentialist (Aug 2, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> Yes, I read that somewhere. Some say the answer is to insulate the van with wool.


You're going to need to do a LOT more than that, if you want your van to be passively warmed. Off the top of my head -

You are going to need to create an absolutely _impregnable_ vapour barrier between your interior and the structure of the vehicle - not just because of insulation, but because any moisture that makes it into the insulation space and thereby in contact with the body of the vehicle WILL corrode it. Fast.
Everything inside the vehicle needs to be insulated from the bodywork of the vehicle. Everything. Any exposed metalwork will suck the warmth of your interior out into the freezing wastes beyond.
Door seals are fine for normal daily use, but they are never going to be good enough to prevent draughts enough to leach out your passive heat. You'll need to beef those up, and keep them well maintained.
You'd better seal off the cab area (with a well-insulated barrier), because the windscreen will be like having a gaping cave mouth open, as far as heat loss is concerned. Also, the driver's cab is almost certainly going to leak heat anyway - there's no way of insulating that, what with all the various bits coming through the bulkhead, gear linkage, etc.
Floor. Underneath you is effectively a big radiator. Your floor will need to be well isolated from that, with something that's at a minimum equivalent to 50mm of Celotex, or whatever that works out in wool. Your floor needs to also be completely isolated, heat-wise, from the body - wooden battens (with the insulation between them) are traditional.
Windows - most campervan windows are fairly basic plastic jobs. They're going to leak heat. You're almost certainly going to need to have top notch ones for a passively heated van, and they're going to have to be mounted in a way that ensures all your insulation goes right up to them - any uninsulated (or weakly insulated) bits between your main interior insulation is going to create a) a condensation zone, and b) a heat leak.
However, you also need to be aware that a van is a lot smaller than a home, and (at least potentially) capable of being hermetically sealed. You might need to think about some kind of airflow, which is of course going to negate all your efforts in regard to heat, but being warm is no good if you're suffocating yourself. And that's true in spades if you're considering doing any cooking inside the vehicle.


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## WouldBe (Aug 2, 2022)

Leafster said:


> I had gas-fired warm air heating in my flat. I lived there for 25 years and I loved it.  It took me aged to get used to wet radiators in my current house. I still think warm air heating is better. There’s no problem with great big radiators taking up wall space and restricting where you can put your furniture. Warm air heating heats the rooms up quicker and the air filters in the system keep the air cleaner. The circulation air also reduces the risk of condensation.
> 
> Not that I had it, but their was an option to include air conditioning in the unit which would have been great with the recent extreme heat event we’ve just had.
> 
> The downside is very few heating engineers in the UK actually understand it so servicing it was a bit problematic. It think that’s why it was often replaced with wet systems which actually have more problems.


My gran had air heating in her sheltered accommodation. It used to leave filthy marks on the ceiling above the outlet vents.


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## davesgcr (Aug 2, 2022)

farmerbarleymow said:


> Remember seeing people collecting coal from Seaham beach back in the day.  Fuel poverty has no doubt always been a problem.



In South Wales - coal picking of slag heaps was obvious in the 1960's , - the older tips had a high ratio of coal in the shale , as pre WW2 , miners were only paid for large coal , so anything smaller than an apple say went into the waste. When tip clearances post Aberfan occurred, about 20% of the tips were recovered for sale. A fact I have recently pointed out to people to encourage recycling as they (the Welsh Assembly Government) plan to do some more tip clearances. That fuel can be used for steam railways amongst other things. 

Anyway - 40 years on , I can declare my father used to "gift" some of his surplus coal to needy folk. Against the rules , but many miners did so as all part of the community.


----------



## jontz01 (Aug 2, 2022)

Long Johns, 2 pairs of wool socks and a good hat permanently. 

Lived in a bus with barely any insulation for a few years. The insides of the windows used to freeze. It was good, I enjoyed it more than the heat.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Aug 2, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> On the edge?


As you well know, you are not that far behind me.


----------



## Mumbles274 (Aug 2, 2022)

Sorry, not read the thread but my boiler broke down and I didn't have running hot water or central heating for 2 years. Oil heaters were fine, we had an electric shower and a dishwasher. 

Barely even noticed if it was cold in the end


----------



## cupid_stunt (Aug 2, 2022)

Sasaferrato said:


> As you well know, you are not that far behind me.



I am over 10 years behind. and I'll never catch-up on you.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Aug 2, 2022)

Leafster said:


> I had gas-fired warm air heating in my flat. I lived there for 25 years and I loved it.  It took me aged to get used to wet radiators in my current house. I still think warm air heating is better. There’s no problem with great big radiators taking up wall space and restricting where you can put your furniture. Warm air heating heats the rooms up quicker and the air filters in the system keep the air cleaner. The circulation air also reduces the risk of condensation.
> 
> Not that I had it, but their was an option to include air conditioning in the unit which would have been great with the recent extreme heat event we’ve just had.
> 
> The downside is very few heating engineers in the UK actually understand it so servicing it was a bit problematic. It think that’s why it was often replaced with wet systems which actually have more problems.


When we moved in here it had blow air heating from a gas boiler, it wasn't particularly good.

The really big drawback with blow air is that when you switch it off, the temperature in the room starts to drop immediately, whereas with radiators, the heat last for another couple of hours at least.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Aug 2, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> I am over 10 years behind. and I'll never catch-up on you.



So sad when the memory starts to go...


----------



## Sasaferrato (Aug 2, 2022)

existentialist said:


> You're going to need to do a LOT more than that, if you want your van to be passively warmed. Off the top of my head -
> 
> You are going to need to create an absolutely _impregnable_ vapour barrier between your interior and the structure of the vehicle - not just because of insulation, but because any moisture that makes it into the insulation space and thereby in contact with the body of the vehicle WILL corrode it. Fast.
> Everything inside the vehicle needs to be insulated from the bodywork of the vehicle. Everything. Any exposed metalwork will suck the warmth of your interior out into the freezing wastes beyond.
> ...



Re the corrosion, could you offset that with zinc blocks?


----------



## campanula (Aug 2, 2022)

scifisam said:


> It doesn't work. It will just make you look like a crazy person with tinfoil on their windows.
> 
> I know (and you know I know!) social housing can be shit, but how come they didn't put heating in till 2008?


Ah well, that would be me being awkward. I haven't had anything done in my house apart from basic checks cos I am disinclined to let workers do anything...mostly because, looking at my neighbours 'improvements', they tend to make everything worse. Horrible kitchen cupboards and nasty little sinks (instead of my lovely enamel ones). I lost my fireplace and had a horrible gasfire instead. I did have the ghastly windows changed (and they were/are a disaster because they got the measurements slightly wrong so now my house, along with every other house on the estate, have badly cracked windows because of thermal expansion. No more money to put right although the council seems to spend baffling sums on frankl;y ridiculous projects such as painting white fascias above all opur windows (while most of us have terrible broken cills). A few years ago, we had all our roof slates replaced. Really good Welsh slate, swapped for crap, cheap Spanish stuff...and a whole bunch of damage because the roofing contractors were imbeciles.
I have worked in building and sweetheart is a tradesperson so I am just not keen on the mediocre level of work, since the council no longer have their own maintenance teams but accept the lowest tender for everything.

But mostly, I accept I am a bit mulish and truculent so I really do not blame the council for any shortcomings in my power set-up.


----------



## muscovyduck (Aug 2, 2022)

Mumbles274 said:


> Sorry, not read the thread


----------



## existentialist (Aug 2, 2022)

Sasaferrato said:


> Re the corrosion, could you offset that with zinc blocks?


I don't know, but I doubt it. Put moisture in contact with steel, and there's not a lot that is going to stop it rusting to bits.


----------



## Hollis (Aug 2, 2022)

I went most of February without heating... can't exactly say it was pleasant. I've bought a couple fleeces in preparation for multi-layering this winter and minimising use of central heating.. but I'll stick it on if it gets too miserable.

Are oil heaters a good option for just heating one room?


----------



## campanula (Aug 2, 2022)

Um, I also have a dog-door...perfectly positioned to channel howling, Siberian winds through the madly flapping flap. Lashes the backs of my knees as I huddle in front of the oven. Almost as bad as having the back door open. Will have to trample on canine liberty or investigate some spendy e.flap.
I took up sewing during lockdown, so find myself considering designing knickers which can be whipped on and off without having to remove your trousers/woolly tights. Poppers would feature. And they would be wool (cashmere, obvs, with silk gussets) - warm knickers with no gaps for drafts. I find the whole winter dressing game to be quite tedious (because I wear _many _ layers and my bedroom is cold) There is often not very much difference between  my days clothes and night clothes, which is very handy...and would be especially so with quick-remove knickers.


----------



## Elpenor (Aug 2, 2022)

Last winter I had the storage heaters downstairs on at a low heat from December 1st - March 1st with afternoon boost. Had the plug in booster on when it was cold. However barely any frosts in my part of the country as it was a mild winter.

This winter my house faces the SW and I’m higher up and a few miles from Dartmoor so potentially a fair bit wetter and colder. On the plus side I have radiators / boiler which should be more effective (though also more expensive)


----------



## girasol (Aug 2, 2022)

Hollis said:


> I went most of February without heating... can't exactly say it was pleasant. I've bought a couple fleeces in preparation for multi-layering this winter and minimising use of central heating.. but I'll stick it on if it gets too miserable.
> 
> Are oil heaters a good option for just heating one room?


We have an oil heater, actually the SAME oil heater I had in my housing association place without central heating - it's been going on for 25 years (oh my god!  time flies).  It's very energy efficient.  We also recently bought a new one - same brand DeLonghi - with a thermostat and a timer.


----------



## gentlegreen (Aug 2, 2022)

girasol said:


> We have an oil heater, actually the SAME oil heater I had in my housing association place without central heating - it's been going on for 25 years (oh my god!  time flies).  It's very energy efficient.  We also recently bought a new one - same brand DeLonghi - with a thermostat and a timer.


All electric heaters are 100 percent efficient at converting electricity into heat.


----------



## girasol (Aug 2, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> All electric heaters are 100 percent efficient at converting electricity into heat.


That's not what I mean, but ok, thanks


----------



## Clair De Lune (Aug 2, 2022)

I can handle the cold after a lifetime of training but I wouldn't put my teen and cats through that. Saying that, we never have our heating on blasting or anything.  I'm not tight but I live in Wales and don't need tropical temperatures in the house like. I'm happy to dress up all cosy and keep the air coolish. I never heat my bedroom.


----------



## WouldBe (Aug 2, 2022)

Elpenor said:


> On the plus side I have radiators / boiler which should be more effective (though also more expensive)


Not necessarily. Don't forget gas is a lot cheaper than electric.


----------



## gentlegreen (Aug 2, 2022)

Clair De Lune said:


> I can handle the cold after a lifetime of training but I wouldn't put my teen and cats through that.


Cats have fur and teens need to toughen up 
So many reasons I never wanted to be a parent....


----------



## Elpenor (Aug 2, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> Not necessarily. Don't forget gas is a lot cheaper than electric.


I didn’t know that - thanks


----------



## WouldBe (Aug 2, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> Cats have fur and teens need to toughen up
> So many reasons I never wanted to be a parent....


Not sure how teens can ever be cold when they go around wearing 3 hoodies at the same time.  If they are they can always put their puffa jacket on as well.


----------



## Funky_monks (Aug 2, 2022)

My house never had central heating until I had it installed in winter 2021 (Biomass, on the RHI). 

I do, however, have the luxury of cavity walls and double glazing - something I'd never had (in my adult life) until moving here in 2019. 

I had two fireplaces - one in the living room, one in the dining room, both with woodburners in, its possible to scrounge/nick a reasonable amount of wood. 

I can't say I was ever hugely cold - I have good blankets. It was a faff lighting a fire (or two fires) every night, but you get used to it, and if you can be arsed to cut kindling/chop logs in bulk at the weekend makes it less hassle - although there were plenty evenings when I hadn't done so I had to walk dogs and cut wood in the cold before lighting the fire and making tea.


----------



## David Clapson (Aug 3, 2022)

existentialist said:


> any moisture that makes it into the insulation space and thereby in contact with the body of the vehicle WILL corrode it. Fast.


Why such a corrosion problem? I mean, cars go out in the rain, and it takes them years to rust. I must be missing something important. Is it that there'll be a permanent layer of moisture on areas which aren't rust-proofed?


----------



## gentlegreen (Aug 3, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> Why such a corrosion problem? I mean, cars go out in the rain, and it takes them years to rust. I must be missing something important. Is it that there'll be a permanent layer of moisture on areas which aren't rust-proofed?


Similar happens in houses. When you insulate you need to make sure there's a vapour barrier to stop moisture hitting the cold wall.


----------



## spring-peeper (Aug 3, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> Similar happens in houses. When you insulate you need to make sure there's a vapour barrier to stop moisture hitting the cold wall.




I totally agree with the vapour barrier.


----------



## gentlegreen (Aug 3, 2022)

spring-peeper said:


> I totally agree with the vapour barrier.


Ironically I learned about it via Mike Holmes'  TV show


----------



## spring-peeper (Aug 3, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> Ironically I learned about it via Mike Holmes'  TV show




He is a Canadian 

And, he knows what he is talking about.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Aug 3, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> Not necessarily. Don't forget gas is a lot cheaper than electric.



Given that gas prices are what’s causing this that may change.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Aug 3, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> Given that gas prices are what’s causing this that may change.



But a large percentage of electric in the UK is generated from gas powered stations.

Just looking now, it's almost 40%, because renewables/wind are currently do well producing over 50%, but the other day that was down to just over 10%, and gas was on around 65%.

Per Kwh, I am paying 28.08p for electric, and only 6.97p for gas, so there's a very big gap.









						National Grid: Live
					

Shows the live status of Great Britain’s electric power transmission network




					grid.iamkate.com


----------



## two sheds (Aug 3, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> Similar happens in houses. When you insulate you need to make sure there's a vapour barrier to stop moisture hitting the cold wall.


Unless the walls need to be breathable as in some old houses like mine. I'm not sure how that works with the Sempatech insulated wallpaper but it does seem to.


----------



## Aladdin (Aug 3, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> really ?
> 
> *Good grief. If I was that fragile I would give up on life.*
> I hate to sound like a boomer, but I was raised in an uninsulated unheated home in the 60s and 70s when we actually had winters.
> I was a baby during one of the worst winters of the last century.



Yes...well...that bolded bit? Smacks of a high level of ignorance...in my opinion..speaking as someone who could actually get very unwell in the cold...

I grew up in a house with no central heating. We had an open fire and wore extra layers of clothes to try to keep warm. Bedtime meant double pjs and wooly socks in winter and ice inside the window.

As a child...you do not notice or feel the cold as much as an adult let alone an adult with underlying health conditions.

Some of us will need to be in the warm. Doesn't mean we should "give up on living".


----------



## gentlegreen (Aug 3, 2022)

The implication was it applied to pretty well everyone.
Doubtless when I get properly old  I will need to wrap up more.


----------



## Aladdin (Aug 3, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> The implication was it applied to pretty well everyone.



Yes...I know. This is what galls me. The "blanket" approach. Like we should all just put up and get on with it. Regardless of underlying health conditions 🙄



gentlegreen said:


> Doubtless when I get properly old  I will need to wrap up more.


 you think you have to be old feel the cold... 
😳


----------



## gentlegreen (Aug 3, 2022)

Aladdin said:


> Yes...I know. This is what galls me. The "blanket" approach. Like we should all just put up and get on with it. Regardless of underlying health conditions 🙄
> 
> 
> you think you have to be old feel the cold...
> 😳


I know it's a massive rabbit hole, but once you eliminate psychology, we all know that a very substantial amount of chronic illness and weakness is self-inflicted.
I'm no athlete, but what massively helped me with the cold was cycling to work and back all year from 27 to 60 and I fully plan to replace that exercise before it's too late.  I used to return to my unheated house in the winter and have to cool down with no top on for ages.

I would like to think I might be one of those 80 year olds who take a dip in the Atlantic on NYD.

Heating entire poorly-insulated homes so you can swan around in your pants is quite frankly obscene.


----------



## cesare (Aug 3, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> I know it's a massive rabbit hole, but once you eliminate psychology, we all know that a very substantial amount of chronic illness and weakness is self-inflicted.
> I'm no athlete, but what massively helped me with the cold was cycling to work and back all year from 27 to 60 and I fully plan to replace that exercise before it's too late.  I used to return to my unheated house in the winter and have to cool down with no top on for ages.
> 
> I would like to think I might be one of those 80 year olds who take a dip in the Atlantic on NYD.
> ...


You know that estrogen affects how cold the body feels when it spikes i.e just before the period, right?


----------



## gentlegreen (Aug 3, 2022)

cesare said:


> You know that estrogen affects how cold the body feels when it spikes i.e just before the period, right?


To what extent ?
Maybe I'll see if Rhonda Patrick has anything to say - I know the whole Wim Hoff thing is a bit iffy, but she is an actual young woman who does it ...


----------



## cesare (Aug 3, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> To what extent ?
> Maybe I'll see if Rhonda Patrick has anything to say - I know the whole Wim Hoff thing is a bit iffy, but she is an actual young woman who does it ...


I imagine the extent will differ by individual, but there may be a range.

It was just an example to illustrate that there are other factors, some of which quite complex, beyond exercise that may affect people's temperatures and ability to control their own temperature.


----------



## cesare (Aug 3, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> To what extent ?
> Maybe I'll see if Rhonda Patrick has anything to say - I know the whole Wim Hoff thing is a bit iffy, but she is an actual young woman who does it ...



I don't know. I imagine it varies between individuals but there may be a normal range.

In any event, it was just a single example to illustrate that the ability of people to regulate their own temperature is quite a complex subject and isn't necessarily just down to exercise.


----------



## cesare (Aug 3, 2022)

Sorry for dp


----------



## Aladdin (Aug 3, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> I know it's a massive rabbit hole, but once you eliminate psychology,* we all know that a very substantial amount of chronic illness and weakness is self-inflicted.*



You're being a prick.
I was a super fit person. Walked everywhere for years. Got severe autoimmune disease and now have CKD and serious muscle disease.

So by your random arsed pathetic thought process I did it to myself.

You're an idiot.

As for swanning around in 30 degree heat indoors? I'd be very happy to just maintain a minimum of 16 degrees


----------



## NoXion (Aug 3, 2022)

I don't think I've ever lived in a house with central heating. Certainly not in the last ten years. I'm used to the place being chilly in the winter and having to wear additional layers. Working from home has presented some additional challenges, since it can be very hard to do desk work when your fingers feel like frozen sausages. Most of the time I find that keeping up my core body temps with layers and hot drinks is sufficient, but during particularly vicious cold snaps I have to break out the blanket and wrap that sucka around me.


----------



## gentlegreen (Aug 3, 2022)

Aladdin said:


> You're being a prick.
> I was a super fit person. Walked everywhere for years. Got severe autoimmune disease and now have CKD and serious muscle disease.
> 
> So by your random arsed pathetic thought process I did it to myself.
> ...


Did you miss :- "*a very substantial amount " ?*


----------



## planetgeli (Aug 3, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> , we all know that a very substantial amount of chronic illness and weakness is self-inflicted.



This is a pretty horrible thing to say and there is no way you can back 'very substantial' up with references.

I'm surprised at you. Proper arsehole thing to say. Unless you count 'auto-immune' as 'self-inflicted'.


----------



## Funky_monks (Aug 3, 2022)

Awesome, I could have cured myself of my Ulcerative Colitis by imagining I wasn't shitting blood multiple times daily - that ileostomy was completely unnecessary. 

Seems we have descended into absurdity now. 


However, I do think you adapt to the cold (illnesses notwithstanding). I now find it unbearably hot in well insulated/centrally heated homes.


----------



## gentlegreen (Aug 3, 2022)

planetgeli said:


> This is a pretty horrible thing to say and there is no way you can back 'very substantial' up with references.
> 
> I'm surprised at you. Proper arsehole thing to say. Unless you count 'auto-immune' as 'self-inflicted'.


We all know that we should walk to the supermarket, and once there, shop only in the first couple of aisles.
I'm no angel - I have a bad muesli habit.


----------



## planetgeli (Aug 3, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> We all know that we should walk to the supermarket, and once there, shop only in the first couple of aisles.
> I'm no angel - I have a bad muesli habit.



Stop digging. Really. And I'm being polite because I've thought you ok up to now.


----------



## gentlegreen (Aug 3, 2022)

planetgeli said:


> Stop digging. Really. And I'm being polite because I've thought you ok up to now.


At no stage did I suggest I was referring to people with endogenous health conditions.


----------



## Aladdin (Aug 3, 2022)

gentlegreen .

People with CKD feel cold. I can feel cold on a summers day even at 24 / 25 degrees. Its not that I am "weak" as you put it.  It's to do with underlying healty issues none of which were preventable 


gentlegreen said:


> Did you miss :- "*a very substantial amount " ?*


How many? Your level of generalisation is right of arseways.


----------



## Aladdin (Aug 3, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> At no stage did I suggest I was referring to people with endogenous health conditions.



You wrote.

"I know it's a massive rabbit hole, but once you eliminate psychology, we all know that a very substantial amount of chronic illness and weakness is self-inflicted."

Implication being that chronuc illness is either a) psychologically based or b) self inflicted.


----------



## Aladdin (Aug 3, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> We all know that we should walk to the supermarket, and once there, shop only in the first couple of aisles.
> I'm no angel - I have a bad muesli habit.



You're surely not this stupid? Tell me you're just getting a kick out of rising people with chronic illnesses?


----------



## cesare (Aug 3, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> At no stage did I suggest I was referring to people with endogenous health conditions.


Not all health conditions or variations are endogenous - some are exogenous eg accidents.  Or environmental eg incidents such as chemical spills.


----------



## gentlegreen (Aug 3, 2022)

Aladdin said:


> You're surely not this stupid? Tell me you're just getting a kick out of rising people with chronic illnesses?


----------



## BristolEcho (Aug 3, 2022)

Just want to point out that it is not "soft" to want a properly heated house. As well as causing damp and cold it can also affect other diseases. It's really grim and I'm just waiting for the Tory MP to come out with the "wear jumpers" and "make lentils" to save the environment comment whilst they have the thermostat set firmly at 23c.

Edit: oh the pages moved from 3 to 8 so maybe this has already been said.


----------



## hegley (Aug 3, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> The worst flu I ever had in recent decades  was in 2019 - in April.
> I used to get flu because I was working in a university, not because I sometimes got cold.


I work in a university - have done for the last 25 years, and I've never had flu. Or even a particularly bad cold tbh. Can't honestly remember the last time I had anything virally.


----------



## Sue (Aug 3, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> I know it's a massive rabbit hole, but once you eliminate psychology, *we all know that a very substantial amount of chronic illness and weakness is self-inflicted.*
> I'm no athlete, but what massively helped me with the cold was cycling to work and back all year from 27 to 60 and I fully plan to replace that exercise before it's too late.  I used to return to my unheated house in the winter and have to cool down with no top on for ages.
> 
> I would like to think I might be one of those 80 year olds who take a dip in the Atlantic on NYD.
> ...


And a substantial amount isn't so what's your point exactly?


----------



## teuchter (Aug 3, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Unless the walls need to be breathable as in some old houses like mine. I'm not sure how that works with the Sempatech insulated wallpaper but it does seem to.


This stuff?









						SempaTap: thermal insulation and soundproofing for walls and ceilings
					

Discover SempaTap, a thermal insulation and sound absorption solution. Ideal sound absorption and thermal insulation for walls and ceilings!




					www.sempatap.net
				




Doubt it's breathable - it's a kind of rubber foam. Your walls may still be able to "breathe" towards the outside though.

Do you feel it's made a difference? I'm always a bit sceptical about these insulated wallpapers because (at least in theory) the amount of insulation they can provide is really quite tiny.


----------



## BristolEcho (Aug 3, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> I know it's a massive rabbit hole, but once you eliminate psychology, we all know that a very substantial amount of chronic illness and weakness is self-inflicted.
> I'm no athlete, but what massively helped me with the cold was cycling to work and back all year from 27 to 60 and I fully plan to replace that exercise before it's too late.  I used to return to my unheated house in the winter and have to cool down with no top on for ages.
> 
> I would like to think I might be one of those 80 year olds who take a dip in the Atlantic on NYD.
> ...


Ah missed this. Come on GG you know that's bulshit. I know you have an alternative way of viewing things and some interesting habits, but to point at people with chronic illness and say it's their fault is shit. My partner's Mum tried to suggest her chronic illness was due to taking "something funny" due to our substance use and that line plays perfectly into that narrative. Her condition is already badly misunderstood as it is. 

Also those of us in rented accommodation don't really get much choice on how insulated our homes are.


----------



## gentlegreen (Aug 3, 2022)

hegley said:


> I work in a university - have done for the last 25 years, and I've never had flu. Or even a particularly bad cold tbh. Can't honestly remember the last time I had anything virally.


I used to work in IT - covered the whole site and our team always had high levels of sickness - and the last time I caught a dose of something there in late 2019 was when a post-grad *life scientis*t (OK they may have been a psychologist) sneezed directly over the desk at me when I was fixing a PC ... the arrival of Covid cemented my decision to retire in 2020 and I haven't had so much as a sniffle since ... I confess I used to be a nose-picker and a bit slack with hand washing ...


----------



## gentlegreen (Aug 3, 2022)

BristolEcho said:


> Ah missed this. Come on GG you know that's bulshit. I know you have an alternative way of viewing things and some interesting habits, but to point at people with chronic illness and say it's their fault is shit.


OK I will bite.
I had a teeny brush with "diabetes" in 2019 - I was overdiagnosed, but my BMI was 32 and it was following a bout of flu that had laid me out.
I'm still overweight and am not exercising nearly enough so I would know who to blame if I ever became "diabetic" again.
See also heart disease, some forms of dementia etc - a direct correlation with diet, obesity  and exercise.
My father made it to 93, but had the whole lot lot by the end so I know I have the genetic potential for longevity and just need to add the healthy diet and exercise that he eschewed.

And at no point did I attack people with congenital / autoimmune conditions etc ...


----------



## Aladdin (Aug 3, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> View attachment 335786



What's that for??

You're not funny.

And your attitiude to people with chronic illness is positively far right wing. 

Do you think we are all just moping about clogging up hospitals and society...what a waste of money all those people with chronic illnesses are....
Life would be better for everyone if they fucked off and died...

Not quite what you're writing but I wouldnt put it past you to think this in the dark spaces of your miniscule mind.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Aug 3, 2022)

existentialist said:


> I don't know, but I doubt it. Put moisture in contact with steel, and there's not a lot that is going to stop it rusting to bits.


Zinc blocks are used as sacrificial anodes in ships to protect the drive shaft. It is used in galvanised wire also.


----------



## Aladdin (Aug 3, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> I used to work in IT - covered the whole site and our team always had high levels of sickness - and the last time I caught a dose of something there in late 2019 was when a post-grad *life scientis*t (OK they may have been a psychologist) sneezed directly over the desk at me when I was fixing a PC ... the arrival of Covid cemented my decision to retire in 2020 and I haven't had so much as a sniffle since ... I confess I used to be a nose-picker and a bit slack with hand washing ...




Bully for you!!🙄🙄
Lived on salads and was practically vegetarian. 
Drank 2 litres of water a day.
Walked EVERYWHERE.
I wasn't sick a day in my life until I was...


----------



## Aladdin (Aug 3, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> And at no point did I attack people with congenital / autoimmune conditions etc ...



Jesus... 
Just stop 

😳😳


----------



## mentalchik (Aug 3, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> OK I will bite.
> I had a teeny brush with "diabetes" in 2019 - I was overdiagnosed, but my BMI was 32 and it was following a bout of flu that had laid me out.
> I'm still overweight and am not exercising nearly enough so I would know who to blame if I ever became "diabetic" again.
> *See also heart disease, some forms of dementia etc - a direct correlation with diet, obesity  and exercise*.
> ...


As someone who is watching their lifelong, fit, slim active mum being ravaged by the end stages of Alzheimer's i find this fairly offensive...think this line of thought needs re-thinking mate


----------



## kebabking (Aug 3, 2022)

Isn't this health advice from the bloke who hasn't had a solid shit since Churchill's funeral?


----------



## two sheds (Aug 3, 2022)

teuchter said:


> This stuff?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes that's it. It says breathable on the website and felt as if it was when I was putting it up.

It's made a real difference - the room warms up a lot quicker. If you hold your hand against it, it gets warm quickly while the house walls are cold to the touch. I've just got it on the external walls, which are rab construction (stone/clay/stone) and so no chance of cavity wall insulation, and external wall insulation would cost £10,000 or so and would fuck up the look of the house.

It used to be bitter in winter but that and the secondary glazing has made a real difference - I've got just about the only wood sash windows where I live and I didn't want to lose them. The conservatory has also made a real difference, heats up the house too.

The fan heater now warms the room up quickly when it used to be on all the time in midwinter. The link David Clapson put up from Friends of the Earth said "internal thin wall insulation which can be as much as 70-80% as effective" as proper internal insulation which I presume means batons against the wall and insulation/plasterboard. My rooms are just too small for that.

I'm plugging up any holes I can find in the building fabric now so hopefully it'll keep the heat even better,

Eta I find the 70-80% difficult to believe though, would like to see test results


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## Funky_monks (Aug 3, 2022)

mentalchik said:


> As someone who is watching their lifelong, fit, slim active mum being ravaged by the end stages of Alzheimer's i find this fairly offensive...think this line of thought needs re-thinking mate


It happens all the time - even more so if you are young, I think. 

I was a student when I had my ileostomy due to UC, a biochem lecturer (and postdoc) informed a couple of my friends when they informed him that I was in hospital that my condition was down to "a poor diet, lacking in fibre and fruit and veg" (he had no idea how I ate). 

I have a feeling my 70s F plan diet mum (wholewheat pasta anyone?) would have lost her shit if she'd heard that. I put that theory to the specialist consultant I was under and he said that was utter rubbish - it's an autoimmune disease, which they think (or thought) was triggered by food poisoning.


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## Aladdin (Aug 3, 2022)

Funky_monks said:


> It happens all the time - even more so if you are young, I think.
> 
> I was a student when I had my ileostomy due to UC, a biochem lecturer (and postdoc) informed a couple of my friends when they informed him that I was in hospital that my condition was down to "a poor diet, lacking in fibre and fruit and veg" (he had no idea how I ate).
> 
> I have a feeling my 70s F plan diet mum (wholewheat pasta anyone?) would have lost her shit if she'd heard that. I put that theory to the specialist consultant I was under and he said that was utter rubbish - it's an autoimmune disease, which they think (or thought) was triggered by food poisoning.




Liked in solidarity


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## campanula (Aug 3, 2022)

The word  lacking from your posts is empathy, gentlegreen. It's sorta irrelevant, whether we 'did it to ourselves' or if it's all in our heads, misery is misery and it doesn't take much to have a kinder view of those who are suffering. I have a nicely insulating layer of flob but my poor starveling lover is really going to feel the cold. Could certainly blame our terrible bad habits...or even our impoverished state of affairs because we are shit at being capitalists but finger pointing is a particularly unhelpful response here. Just sayin, cos I don't really want to be confrontational and I was surprised at your hardline thinking - hadn't really come across it before (although you are certainly one of life's eccentrics).


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## Elpenor (Aug 3, 2022)

Gentlegreen given your refusal to engage with doctors of late perhaps you’re not the best person to be pronouncing on other people’s medical conditions which I am fairly sure they didn’t acquire on purpose. 

Just a thought


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## WouldBe (Aug 3, 2022)

Funky_monks said:


> It happens all the time - even more so if you are young, I think.
> 
> I was a student when I had my ileostomy due to UC, a biochem lecturer (and postdoc) informed a couple of my friends when they informed him that I was in hospital that my condition was down to "a poor diet, lacking in fibre and fruit and veg" (he had no idea how I ate).
> 
> I have a feeling my 70s F plan diet mum (wholewheat pasta anyone?) would have lost her shit if she'd heard that. I put that theory to the specialist consultant I was under and he said that was utter rubbish - it's an autoimmune disease, which they think (or thought) was triggered by food poisoning.


[GG mode]So it's your fault for eating [/GG mode]


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## Orang Utan (Aug 3, 2022)

I wouldn’t do this. Our heating is on for two hours in the morning and two in the evening in the winter, and if we get cold at the other times, we just put more clothes on.


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## Orang Utan (Aug 3, 2022)

I know people who live without gas and electricity and they’re not the picture of health. They have miserable lives and smell bad, spending all of their days in libraries keeping warm. I wouldn’t recommend it.


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## sojourner (Aug 3, 2022)

Sasaferrato said:


> I must say that it is with deep reluctance that I have to accept that I'm on the edge of being an 'older person'. I do feel the cold now, which I didn't in years past.


A lot of older people feel the cold due to 2 main reasons - slowing metabolism and muscle loss.  Strength training would address both. Do you do any?


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## Orang Utan (Aug 3, 2022)

gentlegreen said:


> I know it's a massive rabbit hole, but once you eliminate psychology, we all know that a very substantial amount of chronic illness and weakness is self-inflicted.
> I'm no athlete, but what massively helped me with the cold was cycling to work and back all year from 27 to 60 and I fully plan to replace that exercise before it's too late.  I used to return to my unheated house in the winter and have to cool down with no top on for ages.
> 
> I would like to think I might be one of those 80 year olds who take a dip in the Atlantic on NYD.
> ...


Fella, your house is your mausoleum - you are already in poor health and you’re going to get ill one cold winter and die in your house of exposure and probably lie there for years before being discovered. Don’t be dishing out advice, just get a grip and sort yourself out.


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## teuchter (Aug 3, 2022)

two sheds said:


> Yes that's it. It says breathable on the website and felt as if it was when I was putting it up.
> 
> It's made a real difference - the room warms up a lot quicker. If you hold your hand against it, it gets warm quickly while the house walls are cold to the touch. I've just got it on the external walls, which are rab construction (stone/clay/stone) and so no chance of cavity wall insulation, and external wall insulation would cost £10,000 or so and would fuck up the look of the house.
> 
> ...


I think Friends of the earth are giving slightly misleading advice there - I also don't really believe the 70%-80% nor is it clear what that's actually supposed to mean.

The thin insulation they mention is aerogel which is around twice as effective as the sempatap stuff (and more expensive).

Even aerogel, as a thin layer like that, is not loads more effective than conventional rigid board insulation and they are talk about installing a layer that is less than a tenth of the thickness you'd ideally go for with regular insulation.

Anyway, if what you've got works for you then that's good.


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## xenon (Aug 3, 2022)

This putting the heating on thing to avoid damp. Do people here really put the heating on every day even for just half an hour? I have my windows open all the time even just a crack. Assumed this was enough. Obviously winter is different.


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## xenon (Aug 3, 2022)

Fortunately I have not put the heating on for several months. I have a large south facing window and don’t like it to be too warm anyway.


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## sojourner (Aug 3, 2022)

xenon said:


> This putting the heating on thing to avoid damp. Do people here really put the heating on every day even for just half an hour? I have my windows open all the time even just a crack. Assumed this was enough. Obviously winter is different.


I think they mean just in cold weather.


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## planetgeli (Aug 3, 2022)

xenon said:


> Fortunately I have not put the heating on for several months.



Yeah, nobody has. Which is why (along with the next cap raise not being until October) there is a hiatus in people's personal energy crises. It's still somewhere 'over there' in people's minds. But this is big bad shit coming. And it is coming. Not something a lot of people will have any choice about whether or not to 'give it a go'.


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## kebabking (Aug 3, 2022)

Joyous felicitations arrived in my inbox this morning...


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## sojourner (Aug 3, 2022)

Anyhoo, I'm another one who grew up in a single-paned draughty damp council house with no central heating and with a coal fire in one room, ice on the inside of the windows in winter. On Sunday bath night, we'd have the paraffin heater in the bathroom, and if you were REALLY ill, you could have it in your bedroom.

I then lived in a series of similar places, all freezing cold and black moldy, couldn't dry washing in winter, turned purple just going the bog, and had a perma-wheeze that started in childhood and continued.

I didn't experience double-glazing or central heating til I moved into my current house in 2002. For the first time in my life, I actually felt warm in winter, it was a revelation.  Washing dried pretty much overnight, and it was so quiet!! Single panes let in so much noise!

We've plans to layer up and sit in our 4 season sleeping bags whilst watching telly/reading this winter, but we will be having the heating on if it's baltic, no question.


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## Sasaferrato (Aug 3, 2022)

sojourner said:


> A lot of older people feel the cold due to 2 main reasons - slowing metabolism and muscle loss.  Strength training would address both. Do you do any?



I do. I go to the gym and do treadmill, hand bike and weights.


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## sojourner (Aug 3, 2022)

Sasaferrato said:


> I do. I go to the gym and do treadmill, hand bike and weights.


Treadmill and bike are cardio, it's the weights you need to concentrate on.


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## cupid_stunt (Aug 3, 2022)

kebabking said:


> Joyous felicitations arrived in my inbox this morning...
> View attachment 335825



How much were you paying before?


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## kebabking (Aug 3, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> How much were you paying before?



About £80 I think....


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## Orang Utan (Aug 3, 2022)

planetgeli said:


> Yeah, nobody has. Which is why (along with the next cap raise not being until October) there is a hiatus in people's personal energy crises. It's still somewhere 'over there' in people's minds. But this is big bad shit coming. And it is coming. Not something a lot of people will have any choice about whether or not to 'give it a go'.


Consumers need to just not pay en masse, forcing the energy companies to make up the shortfall themselves with their billions in profits


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## cupid_stunt (Aug 3, 2022)

Orang Utan said:


> Consumers need to just not pay en masse, forcing the energy companies to make up the shortfall themselves with their billions in profits



I'll happily support this campaign not to pay.

But, it's worth pointing out that most supply companies are not making much, hence why so many have gone bust, most don't produce energy, it's the produces like Centrica (owners of British Gas), Shell and BP that are making the billions.


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## Aladdin (Aug 3, 2022)

xenon said:


> This putting the heating on thing to avoid damp. Do people here really put the heating on every day even for just half an hour? I have my windows open all the time even just a crack. Assumed this was enough. Obviously winter is different.




Oh..no.
Heating only goes on here if possible in November and is off usually from April. When it is on its for 2 hours in the morning and depending on how cold it is maybe 3 hours in the evening. 
Its set to kick in if the temperature drops below 16 degrees in the hall.
But we often over ride that if someone is feeling very cold like my soon to be 83 yr old mum.


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## kebabking (Aug 3, 2022)

Orang Utan said:


> Consumers need to just not pay en masse, forcing the energy companies to make up the shortfall themselves with their billions in profits



Spoken like a man who won't have to apply for a mortgage, bank loan, car finance or even mobile phone contract in the next five years, or indeed worry about whether the heating and power to cook will work when you get home in a cold, wet November night...

_Something_ needs to happen. I can pay these bills, but most can't. Leaving it to random families to take the lead, and the risks accociated, is not on.


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## MickiQ (Aug 3, 2022)

Orang Utan said:


> Consumers need to just not pay en masse, forcing the energy companies to make up the shortfall themselves with their billions in profits


I remain dubious to say the least that any mass boycott will have any effect (assuming it even happens) realistically now we need rioting and MP's being strung up or at least a real fear that this will happen which at the moment there doesn't seem to be.
The simplest solution at the moment is for the Govt to just not raise the cap effectively forcing the companies to eat the rise in costs.
This means that whilst the bigger compaines like British Gas and E-on will survive since they have fingers in enough pies to ride it out by moving money from elsewhere (or even borrowing it). A lot of the supply companies will go to the wall but they are mostly accounting smoke and mirrors rather than actual 'value' producers.
As of yet I haven't seen anything that makes me think the Don't Pay Campaign is anything other than a publicity stunt (really would love to be proved wrong on this) 
Like kebabking I personally am in the position where I can afford to pay these bills, indeed I am in the position where I can and probably will have to help certain other people like Mrs Q's brother who already owes me a four figure sum I  have little real expectation of getting back.


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## sojourner (Aug 3, 2022)

kebabking said:


> Spoken like a man who won't have to apply for a mortgage, bank loan, car finance or even mobile phone contract in the next five years, or indeed worry about whether the heating and power to cook will work when you get home in a cold, wet November night...
> 
> _Something_ needs to happen. I can pay these bills, but most can't. Leaving it to random families to take the lead, and the risks accociated, is not on.


Did you see the TikTok link someone posted on the Don't Pay UK thread? About avoiding CCJs and the like by raising a complaint at just the right time in order to hold off any action? 

It's obviously not going to work for those on prepayment meters, that's why they've only said it's about cancelling your direct debit.

And how do you know OU isn't going to do any of those things?


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## kebabking (Aug 3, 2022)

sojourner it was the _just_, like _just_ switch the kettle on, or _just_ scratch your arse...

You know, something simple, fairly obvious and without significant side effects.


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## Orang Utan (Aug 3, 2022)

kebabking said:


> Spoken like a man who won't have to apply for a mortgage, bank loan, car finance or even mobile phone contract in the next five years, or indeed worry about whether the heating and power to cook will work when you get home in a cold, wet November night...
> 
> _Something_ needs to happen. I can pay these bills, but most can't. Leaving it to random families to take the lead, and the risks accociated, is not on.


That’s why it’ll only work if everyone does it


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## Orang Utan (Aug 3, 2022)

It was just an idea. I’m not one for rigorous analysis. I’ll leave that to the experts!


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## Mr.Bishie (Aug 3, 2022)

Orang Utan said:


> That’s why it’ll only work if everyone does it


And that’s (sadly) why it won’t work. The complaints route is the far better option! The sooner the ‘Don’t Pay’ campaign acknowledge this the better.


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## Orang Utan (Aug 3, 2022)

Mr.Bishie said:


> And that’s (sadly) why it won’t work. The complaints route is the far better option! The sooner the ‘Don’t Pay’ campaign acknowledge this the better.


Is there a campaign? Shit, thought I’d had an original idea for once


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## cupid_stunt (Aug 3, 2022)

Orang Utan said:


> Is there a campaign? Shit, thought I’d had an original idea for once











						Energy Prices: Don't Pay Campaign
					

https://dontpay.uk/  Clearly modelled on the Poll Tax (amongst other things).  This looks good.




					www.urban75.net


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## David Clapson (Aug 4, 2022)

farmerbarleymow said:


> Tempted to buy one of these to keep the heating bills down


Link please!


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## furluxor (Aug 6, 2022)

I have friend who doesn't heat in winter (or ever), I do worry about him when it gets cold and would gladly pay his energy bills but he's stubborn as a goat. His main tip is just to add extra layers to the bed as it get colder until you're sleeping under a thousand duvets, coats and what not. My tip is: don't do it, your friends will worry and you might die. Why not heat less instead? There's this great article on hot water bottles, some of the suggested uses are interesting. Lots of good info in the comments as well. Merino layers are also great if you can afford them.


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## weltweit (Aug 6, 2022)

I grew up in an old house with ancient sash windows, you could feel the draught coming through them. There was a radiator in every room, right below the sash windows but my dad hardly put on the heating because it was like setting fire to ten pound notes. We just wore more clothing in winter and had nice thick duvets to shelter under and occasionally a warm terrier to act as a hot water bottle.    

There is something to be said for leaky sash windows though, I swear we never had colds, because we were acclimatised to the temperature.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 6, 2022)

kebabking said:


> Spoken like a man who won't have to apply for a mortgage, bank loan, car finance or even mobile phone contract in the next five years, or indeed worry about whether the heating and power to cook will work when you get home in a cold, wet November night...
> 
> _Something_ needs to happen. I can pay these bills, but most can't. Leaving it to random families to take the lead, and the risks accociated, is not on.


Yeh people should suck it up


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## geminisnake (Aug 6, 2022)

WouldBe said:


> Before I had my thermal store put in the wood burning boiler stove could gravity feed all the upstairs radiators if there was a power cut.


I wish ours was that effective but we live in the 1st house of a 'row' of 12 and there's only really fields between us and the North sea just over a mile away


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## scifisam (Aug 7, 2022)

kebabking said:


> Joyous felicitations arrived in my inbox this morning...
> View attachment 335825



Mine's gone up to a similar level, £240. And because the govt have changed the rules for the warm home discount I won't even be eligible for that this year because EDF are only giving it to the automatic group, ie pensioners.

Guess I should just stop having the chronic diseases I must have chosen to inflict on myself. Amazing how my strength of will can even make my joints visibly swell and change my blood tests, endoscopies, ECGs, x-rays and ultrasound scans! Bloody hell, I'm powerful.

If only I lived as healthy a life as you, GG.


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## David Clapson (Nov 5, 2022)

So, it's a bit chilly. We haven't talked about this since the summer. Anyone got progress reports? I've turned on my heating but at a very low flow rate. Radiators currently feel tepid and I'm wearing long merino undies and USAF pilot's overtrousers, which are basically sleeping bags for the legs. I took note of the people upthread who said you don't mind the cold when you're active. I find that a bit of vigorous shoe-polishing after breakfast is a big help. I'm trying to get a proper mirror shine on my boots. It's more arduous than it sounds.


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## Sasaferrato (Nov 5, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> So, it's a bit chilly. We haven't talked about this since the summer. Anyone got progress reports? I've turned on my heating but at a very low flow rate. Radiators currently feel tepid and I'm wearing long merino undies and USAF pilot's overtrousers, which are basically sleeping bags for the legs. I took note of the people upthread who said you don't mind the cold when you're active. I find that a bit of vigorous shoe-polishing after breakfast is a big help. I'm trying to get a proper mirror shine on my boots. It's more arduous than it sounds.



To get a mirror shine you need Kiwi parade Gloss, a yellow duster, a small dish of water and a lot of patience.


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## Sasaferrato (Nov 5, 2022)

geminisnake said:


> I wish ours was that effective but we live in the 1st house of a 'row' of 12 and there's only really fields between us and the North sea just over a mile away


Aye, and that East Coast wind is bloody cold.


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## Sasaferrato (Nov 5, 2022)

Oh well, had two E-mails from Scottish power telling me that the £66.00 has been credited to the account. Not going to be good when that stops though.

Put the UN into the Ukraine.


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## David Clapson (Nov 5, 2022)

Sasaferrato said:


> To get a mirror shine you need Kiwi parade Gloss, a yellow duster, a small dish of water and a lot of patience.


 We did it that way in the air cadets. I was the only one who got a full colour reflection. Now I'm trying it with no duster or water.


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## cupid_stunt (Nov 5, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> So, it's a bit chilly. We haven't talked about this since the summer. Anyone got progress reports? I've turned on my heating but at a very low flow rate. Radiators currently feel tepid and I'm wearing long merino undies and USAF pilot's overtrousers, which are basically sleeping bags for the legs. I took note of the people upthread who said you don't mind the cold when you're active. I find that a bit of vigorous shoe-polishing after breakfast is a big help. I'm trying to get a proper mirror shine on my boots. It's more arduous than it sounds.



You started this thread too early, and it clearly got forgotten back in August. the usual annual 'Have you turned the heating on yet?' thread is discussing how people are coping is HERE.


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## friedaweed (Nov 5, 2022)

Our gaff, which we've been renovating for a year and a half now,  is designed to be heated by a hearth. It's an old lime morta 1820's built toll house which, if it's lived in the way it was built, should always have a source of heat centrally pushing out the elements. We have no double glazing, not allowed because its listed and it's drafty as fuck. The chimney runs up through the middle of the cottage and when it's working provides convectional heat through the walls of the chimney for every room except the living room.

Originally there was a big inglenook which we exposed when we moved in and installed the biggest wood-burning stove we could fit in the space. We have a stovax stockton 11 KW beast that has a stainless steel cook-plate on the top. Two fans on the stove push the hot air into the living room and that in turn goes up the stairs. Since I started the re-roofing and installed the king-span insulation the heat hangs around a lot better upstairs.

We put a full gas combi-boiler central heating system in and I laid underfloor heating in the kitchen and the living room but none of this is going on unless we have Narnia's grandchild here (The only time the heating has been on so far) or other cared about visitors. We've pretty much decamped from the living room to what we call the dining room but that really is just the main room with the burner in.

One of the things we've realised after all our modernisations was the earlier inhabitants of this place just sat round the fire and then got under the eiderdown to sleep. Last year I enjoyed coming down in the morning and feeling the warmth coming up from the underfloor heating now I just put my slippers on and think Fuck you Putin.

Pallet wood and the felling of a couple of overbearing trees last year will get me though the winter. I'm not making these cunts any richer. 

Keep warm folks and if any of you get to the point where you need to warm your cotton socks...mi casa es su casa


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## Raheem (Nov 5, 2022)

farmerbarleymow said:


> Tempted to buy one of these to keep the heating bills down


East 17/Nightgarden crossover ftw.


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