# Advice needed: a friend of mine thinks he's going to be sacked



## Orang Utan (Jul 17, 2012)

He saw some documents today which tipped him off and he found out unofficially that this was the case. He's on a final warning, so he thinks it's curtains for him. He only just got back from a week off for stress and they're doing this to him.
He's good at his job, but as a result gets dumped with an unreasonable amount of work and has hence made mistakes. He works for a small organisation and from what I can gather, it typically suffers from poor management. He's a union member but it's a large and not particularly effective or supportive union. Of course, he will still seek advice and support from them, but I thought I'd ask you lot if you had any advice or thoughts on anything else he can or should do to avoid or fight a sacking.
I think he's been badly stitched up and let down and doesn't deserve to swing just because he's been put under unreasonable pressure.


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## temper_tantrum (Jul 17, 2012)

- document everything in writing in a personal log book, and get them to confirm all orders, requests, discussions, conclusions in writing (eg emails for priorities, orders, actions etc)
- meeting with direct boss to discuss what pieces of work to prioritise, then email to follow up (to get the boss's instructions in writing). Then stick to the work needed in the time available with reference to the boss's instructions re: priorities, and start saying no to people - refer them to the boss if they start to whine.
- appointment with doctor to register for work-related stress. Medical documentation useful for future.
- get hold of TU rep and contact ACAS for further advice.


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## equationgirl (Jul 17, 2012)

Tell him to get hold of the disciplinary policy, sickness absence policy and stress management policy. Get copies of all emails relating to performance improvement and absence forms, including those where he was signed off by the GP and self certifications. Also put in a data protection request for all information held about him by the company to HR and ask for it to be sent to his home address. Tell him to make copies of anything relating to mistakes. Can he make copies of the documents he saw at all?

He should gather as much evidence as he can, as quickly as he can. 

He is entitled to take a work colleague into any meeting as support.

They should be providing documented instances of mistakes he has made. 

As he was signed off with stress, I believe the employer has to show that there is some form of mitigation plan in place, but I am no expert.

How long has he been with the company?


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## Orang Utan (Jul 17, 2012)

Thanks temper tantrum -  it's a bit late for much of that though, as I think they're gonna do this tomorrow.


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## Orang Utan (Jul 17, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Tell him to get hold of the disciplinary policy, sickness absence policy and stress management policy. Get copies of all emails relating to performance improvement and absence forms, including those where he was signed off by the GP and self certifications. Also put in a data protection request for all information held about him by the company to HR and ask for it to be sent to his home address. Tell him to make copies of anything relating to mistakes. Can he make copies of the documents he saw at all?
> 
> He should gather as much evidence as he can, as quickly as he can.
> 
> ...


I shall tell him this, thanks! He's been with them for ages - well over 5 years


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## temper_tantrum (Jul 17, 2012)

In that case tell him to say as little as possible in the meeting, take plentiful notes of what they say, not to sign anything or agree to anything, have a rep or friend present if poss and seek union advice urgently. Also ACAS. And then post here once the meeting has taken place with more info about what exactly they are saying.


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## temper_tantrum (Jul 17, 2012)

And do what EQG said of course.


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## equationgirl (Jul 17, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> I shall tell him this, thanks! He's been with them for ages - well over 5 years


Then, if the company hasn't followed their own procedures to the letter, he can take them to tribunal


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## equationgirl (Jul 17, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> Thanks temper tantrum - it's a bit late for much of that though, as I think they're gonna do this tomorrow.


Can he get in a little early, to get all the info? Before his manager? Tell him to gets hard copies of emails first, electronic copies if he has time. 

Did he get his final warning in writing?


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## equationgirl (Jul 17, 2012)

Forewarned is forearmed - he has the advantage as he knows this is coming and can be prepared, but they don't know he knows.

Mwah hah hah.


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## equationgirl (Jul 17, 2012)

Most importantly, wish him all the best for tomorrow.


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## 14teeth (Jul 17, 2012)

Can they actually fire him tomorrow and he finishes tomorrow, or a period of notice? Just wondering.


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## equationgirl (Jul 17, 2012)

14teeth said:


> Can they actually fire him tomorrow and he finishes tomorrow, or a period of notice? Just wondering.


Might depend if its gross misconduct or not. Disciplinary policy should lay out the process.


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## 14teeth (Jul 17, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Might depend if its gross misconduct or not. Disciplinary policy should lay out the process.


Doesn't sound like gross misconduct from the op.


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## Orang Utan (Jul 17, 2012)

A clarification - he wasn't signed off. He just took time off as holiday :-/


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## equationgirl (Jul 17, 2012)

14teeth said:


> Doesn't sound like gross misconduct from the op.


No, I don't think it is either, but I'm intrigued to see how the employer spins it.


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## equationgirl (Jul 17, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> A clarification - he wasn't signed off. He just took time off as holiday :-/


Even less problem, then, seeing as holiday has to be approved by his line manager I would expect.


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## Orang Utan (Jul 17, 2012)

And he has complained a lot about stress and overwork and it's 'sporadically' documented


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## FridgeMagnet (Jul 17, 2012)

It doesn't sound from what you've said as if they have a legitimate reason for sacking him. However - and I've experienced this personally (didn't work) and also heard from others - there are employers who, if they think you are "weak" from stress-related conditions, will assume that you're not going to fight if they try to victimise you on spurious grounds, and you'll just let it go.


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## 14teeth (Jul 17, 2012)

The bloke doesn't sound like he's very happy in his job. This is just my personal opinion: I'd make an emergency appointment with my GP first thing tomorrow morning, on the phone to them at 8.00am, get signed off for work related stress and go and look for another job. Fuck them.


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## equationgirl (Jul 17, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> And he has complained a lot about stress and overwork and it's 'sporadically' documented


Tell him to especially make copies of anything mentioning stress or overwork.


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## equationgirl (Jul 17, 2012)

14teeth said:


> The bloke doesn't sound like he's very happy in his job. This is just my personal opinion: I'd make an emergency appointment with my GP first thing tomorrow morning, on the phone to them at 8.00am, get signed off for work related stress and go and look for another job. Fuck them.


That's not entirely helpful. He needs to get as much evidence as possible before he gets sacked, as by the sounds of things, the employer has probably been playing a bit fast and loose with employment law. Getting signed off at this point with work related stress won't be helpful if he has to have a medical for a new employer, whereas if he has them bang to rights he can take them to tribunal, or settle beforehand for a good reference and a sack of cash.


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## harpo (Jul 17, 2012)

If he's worked there 5 years he has plenty of rights! Even if the union is in his opinion not particularly effective, he should still ensure he has a rep present at meetings.  Or at least a McKensie Friend (ie a witness who he can trust to note the meeting).  As others have said, he needs to note everything and scrutinise his works policy on sick/stress. I can't add to what others have said.

I'm in a similar position myself so I'll just descend into a bit of a rant.  These 'managers' serve no other purpose than to lay in wait for people to put a foot wrong so they can justify their own existence by gormlessly and inhumanely following the rule book.  They don't see what damage they do to good staff, because they don't do that job themselves.  Never ever trust any individual in a management position, even if you think you know them.   ALWAYS play their game.

Good luck to your mate OU.  Let him find the energy.  But if it all goes tits up, there are quieter and more dignified ways to live.  At least that is what I am telling myself.


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## equationgirl (Jul 17, 2012)

FridgeMagnet said:


> It doesn't sound from what you've said as if they have a legitimate reason for sacking him. However - and I've experienced this personally (didn't work) and also heard from others - there are employers who, if they think you are "weak" from stress-related conditions, will assume that you're not going to fight if they try to victimise you on spurious grounds, and you'll just let it go.


Most people bank on you not fighting back to be fair.


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## FridgeMagnet (Jul 17, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Most people bank on you not fighting back to be fair.


True. But - admittedly mostly anecdotally - I think it is worse if you're perceived as "vulnerable" for whatever reason. On the other hand it can be counter-productive for them, as they may cut corners and leave holes, and there's always the DDA to use if they give any hint that your illness is connected to the action at all.

As a general point, not connected to the question here, I'd never mention any anxiety, depression or general mental health-related condition to an employer ever.


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## 14teeth (Jul 17, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> That's not entirely helpful. He needs to get as much evidence as possible before he gets sacked, as by the sounds of things, the employer has probably been playing a bit fast and loose with employment law. Getting signed off at this point with work related stress won't be helpful if he has to have a medical for a new employer, whereas if he has them bang to rights he can take them to tribunal, or settle beforehand for a good reference and a sack of cash.


That sounds really straightforward when you put it like that. You have no idea the kind of stress that kind of process puts a person through. Collating evidence, going to a tribunal, it'll take months. I've done it, never again, I'd rather wash dishes. We obviously live in very different worlds. I'll leave this thread to you 'stuck in rut and woe betide me' people.


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## Orang Utan (Jul 17, 2012)

harpo said:


> If he's worked there 5 years he has plenty of rights! Even if the union is in his opinion not particularly effective, he should still ensure he has a rep present at meetings.  Or at least a McKensie Friend (ie a witness who he can trust to note the meeting).  As others have said, he needs to note everything and scrutinise his works policy on sick/stress. I can't add to what others have said.
> 
> I'm in a similar position myself so I'll just descend into a bit of a rant.  These 'managers' serve no other purpose than to lay in wait for people to put a foot wrong so they can justify their own existence by gormlessly and inhumanely following the rule book.  They don't see what damage they do to good staff, because they don't do that job themselves.  Never ever trust any individual in a management position, even if you think you know them.   ALWAYS play their game.
> 
> Good luck to your mate OU.  Let him find the energy.  But if it all goes tits up, there are quieter and more dignified ways to live.  At least that is what I am telling myself.


Infuckingdeed.
He doesn't feel like fighting but if he's suspended and not having to deal with work stress, I think he'll have enough energy to fight back


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## Puddy_Tat (Jul 17, 2012)

This from ACAS may be worth a read.

If someone's entitled to union representation at a disciplinary meeting, then that would imply managers can't just call someone into a meeting, then say it's a disciplinary meeting (or have it turn into one), and sack them. 

Relying on a colleague is difficult, as it can then put that colleague in a situation where they get picked on by management (or are afraid of getting picked on)

There are some circumstances where it's not unreasonable to suspend someone pending an enquiry with very little notice (e.g. if someone's accused of major fraud or sexual harassment)

Ideally, he should have argued before now, e.g. appealing the final warning, and logged the stress as a work related illness under H&S procedures. 

The advice that he should get hard copy evidence of all past communications together ASAP is worthwhile - print hard copies, or e-mail them to home or something.  It's interesting just how much IT systems can 'lose' when something like this happens.

If he is bounced into a disciplinary meeting without notice, he should first argue that he ought to have been given notice so he could organise representation, and that he wants the meeting deferred until he can arrange this.

Also, the least said, probably the better - and don't get bounced into agreeing with things - "I need to go and look at my diary" / "I need to go and refer to an e-mail" / "I need time to think about that"


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## Orang Utan (Jul 17, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> That's not entirely helpful. He needs to get as much evidence as possible before he gets sacked, as by the sounds of things, the employer has probably been playing a bit fast and loose with employment law. Getting signed off at this point with work related stress won't be helpful if he has to have a medical for a new employer, whereas if he has them bang to rights he can take them to tribunal, or settle beforehand for a good reference and a sack of cash.


He was thinking of going to work tomorrow and facing the music and then getting signed off. Would you not advise this?
I think he thinks they'll expect him to carry on working until he has his disciplinary! If that's the case, he may not have enough fight left in him.


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## trashpony (Jul 17, 2012)

14teeth said:


> That sounds really straightforward when you put it like that. You have no idea the kind of stress that kind of process puts a person through. Collating evidence, going to a tribunal, it'll take months. I've done it, never again, I'd rather wash dishes. We obviously live in very different worlds. I'll leave this thread to you 'stuck in rut and woe betide me' people.


I got effectively demoted (another layer was put in between me and my boss), complained, got signed off with stress and threatened to sue for constructive dismissal (we settled before it went to tribunal).

It was well worth it.


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## Orang Utan (Jul 17, 2012)

Yeah constructive dismissal is what I advised him to go for.
And he is gonna get a union rep in - as puddy tat said, getting a colleague in, especially in a small organisation, can put them in an uncomfortable situation.
One other thing: they've outsourced their HR stuff to another company, so although they probably are doing it all by the book, they might not be in the loop about everything that's occurred.


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## Puddy_Tat (Jul 17, 2012)

going for "constructive dismissal" pretty much needs professional advice.

if an individual (as an amateur) misses one bit of procedure that the company's lawyers pick up on, then it can balls up the claim.

i am fairly sure (subject to the usual disclaimers) that to make a claim for constructive dismissal, you have at least to have tried to go through the employer's grievance procedure first.


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## equationgirl (Jul 17, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> He was thinking of going to work tomorrow and facing the music and then getting signed off. Would you not advise this?
> I think he thinks they'll expect him to carry on working until he has his disciplinary! If that's the case, he may not have enough fight left in him.





14teeth said:


> That sounds really straightforward when you put it like that. You have no idea the kind of stress that kind of process puts a person through. Collating evidence, going to a tribunal, it'll take months. I've done it, never again, I'd rather wash dishes. We obviously live in very different worlds. I'll leave this thread to you 'stuck in rut and woe betide me' people.


14teeth: I have, unfortunately, far too much of an idea of the intolerable amounts of stress something like this can place on a person. What I'm saying is if there is evidence that can be gathered to fight an employer who is not playing by their own rules, then the fact that you have this evidence can be enough to make them back off. Most employers will settle as they are afraid of the bad publicity.

Don't assume you know anything about me or what I've gone through in my working life.

OU, once he has got all the evidence he can, I'd suggest a trip to the GP may be in order, unless they plan on springing the disciplinary on him tomorrow, in which case follow Puddy Tat's advice.


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## Orang Utan (Jul 17, 2012)

So how does he get out of this without getting sacked?


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## harpo (Jul 17, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> Infuckingdeed.
> He doesn't feel like fighting but if he's suspended and not having to deal with work stress, I think he'll have enough energy to fight back


Let him make a quiet science  of hoisting them on their own petard.


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## equationgirl (Jul 17, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> So how does he get out of this without getting sacked?


Bearing in mind I'm no expert, but I would expect them to present some form of reasoning as to why he's being sacked, something along the lines of 'you had a final warning for X but it's continued to happen so under this policy the only option open to us is to let you go'. His recourse would be to show that he had asked for extra training, for example, which didn't happen, or that the additional systems/processes weren't put in place etc, or that the evidence being presented is a complete lie.

Advise him to contact ACAS as they have a free helpline and can advise far better than me on the avoiding a sacking aspect.


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## nagapie (Jul 17, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> Yeah constructive dismissal is what I advised him to go for.
> And he is gonna get a union rep in - as puddy tat said, getting a colleague in, especially in a small organisation, can put them in an uncomfortable situation.
> One other thing: they've outsourced their HR stuff to another company, so although they probably are doing it all by the book, they might not be in the loop about everything that's occurred.


 
That's not my experience. Often HR are not properly informed of what's going on if they're not in-house and get called in at the point of disciplinary, when plenty of holes can still be picked. I've experienced this in a meeting supporting a colleague.

Oh and very sad to hear about this as I assume I know who you're talking about. Doesn't deserve this shit.


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## Orang Utan (Jul 17, 2012)

Thanks for all the advice, esp EG. You're all brilliant!


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## harpo (Jul 17, 2012)

Puddy_Tat said:


> going for "constructive dismissal" pretty much needs professional advice.
> 
> if an individual (as an amateur) misses one bit of procedure that the company's lawyers pick up on, then it can balls up the claim.
> 
> i am fairly sure (subject to the usual disclaimers) that to make a claim for constructive dismissal, you have at least to have tried to go through the employer's grievance procedure first.


Yes. He can't progress to that until he has exhausted internal procedures. He really should be involving his union immediately if it's got to the sacking stage. That is what he pays his subs for.


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## equationgirl (Jul 17, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> Thanks for all the advice, esp EG. You're all brilliant!


No worries, OU, got my fingers crossed for him. Will you report back how he gets on tomorrow?


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## Orang Utan (Jul 17, 2012)

Yes of course! I'm sure I/he will need more advice


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## Orang Utan (Jul 17, 2012)

nagapie said:


> That's not my experience. Often HR are not properly informed of what's going on if they're not in-house and get called in at the point of disciplinary, when plenty of holes can still be picked. I've experienced this in a meeting supporting a colleague.
> 
> Oh and very sad to hear about this as I assume I know who you're talking about. Doesn't deserve this shit.


You do know him. You can probably guess. Probably my best mate. He certainly doesn't deserve this shit. But nice people always get taken for a ride by management


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## equationgirl (Jul 17, 2012)

The thing about the evidence is, it's easier to get as much as possible, and then make a decision about fighting back. But if you don't have any evidence, there's not much you can do.

Nice people do often get taken advantage of by management. Some people make themselves feel better if they're stressed or insecure or whatever by taking it out on other people. It's not right but it happens.


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## Miss-Shelf (Jul 17, 2012)

People have offered great advice on this thread. a lot of resilience demonstrated too. 

The delaying tactic is very useful and i have employed it myself when a meeting turned into a disciplinary. bought me enough time to get advice and the union. i got out of the job within six weeks on my terms and with 
the notice period waived. 
 fighting for yourself can be worth it
good luck to your friend
better things are on the horizo
ps
an agreed reference is worth holding out for imo


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## Puddy_Tat (Jul 17, 2012)

indeed.  a compromise agreement may be the best way out here - these also need professional legal advice.


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## equationgirl (Jul 18, 2012)

I hope it's not too stressful for your friend, OU.


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## Orang Utan (Jul 18, 2012)

Well...nothing happened. His line manager as good as admitted that he shouldn't have admitted that they were planning to fire him, so this could work in his favour. And so it should. The way they're going about it just extends the stress and torment he's going through. Plus, now there's a really weird atmosphere as everyone knows. Even clients know and have said supportive things. 
He's speaking to a rep and ACAS tomorrow and seeing a doctor to get signed off in the afternoon.


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## Puddy_Tat (Jul 18, 2012)

sounds sorta good.

i still think he should print / forward as many e-mails as he can before going off sick...


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## equationgirl (Jul 19, 2012)

Puddy_Tat said:


> sounds sorta good.
> 
> i still think he should print / forward as many e-mails as he can before going off sick...


This. In case they deactivate his account or something. Get all the policies etc too.


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## Orang Utan (Aug 2, 2012)

He went back to work today after a fortnight signed off for stress. They hit him with the details of the disciplinary, listing a bunch of trivial stuff.
He coudn't stand staying there, so went straight back to the doctor and got signed off again.
He plans to resign due to ill health.
Weirdly, his manager resigned last week.


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## Puddy_Tat (Aug 2, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> He plans to resign due to ill health.


 
I would really suggest that he doesn't do this.

Not yet.

Not while he's signed off.

Keep options open as long as possible.

Will the departure of his manager possibly make a positive difference?  (is this manager one that's been being an arse, or is the arse-ness coming from higher levels?)

If you resign from a job, generally speaking, you're disqualified from the dole as "voluntarily unemployed" and I'm not sure what happens if you try to claim ESA - it may be similar.

Is this disciplinary anything that could possibly result in the sack or is it a load of balls?

Resigning might be better than getting the sack, but I think he should wait a bit.


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## equationgirl (Aug 2, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> He went back to work today after a fortnight signed off for stress. They hit him with the details of the disciplinary, listing a bunch of trivial stuff.
> He coudn't stand staying there, so went straight back to the doctor and got signed off again.
> He plans to resign due to ill health.
> Weirdly, his manager resigned last week.





Puddy_Tat said:


> I would really suggest that he doesn't do this.
> 
> Not yet.
> 
> ...


I would echo this - if at all possible, keep options open and avoid resigning. Might the disciplinary go away if his manager is resigning?


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## Orang Utan (Aug 2, 2012)

He's on a final warning so I don't think it matters. They have a list of things he was supposed to do so they will want to fire him for being incapable of doing his job.
I shall pass on your advice, thank you.


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## Miss-Shelf (Aug 3, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> He's on a final warning so I don't think it matters. They have a list of things he was supposed to do so they will want to fire him for being incapable of doing his job.
> I shall pass on your advice, thank you.


they do have to also show that they have given all the support they agreed
good luck to your friend


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## equationgirl (Aug 4, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> He's on a final warning so I don't think it matters. They have a list of things he was supposed to do so they will want to fire him for being incapable of doing his job.
> I shall pass on your advice, thank you.


But he's not incapable though. Joining a union would be a really good idea also, if he isn't already in one.


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