# On the misogyny in the game industry



## Quartz (Sep 1, 2014)

I came across this essay which I thought was interesting. It's ostensibly about Anita Sarkesien, but that's just the surface - it takes her as an example. Two of its arguments, among other things, are not only that men have it just as bad, but that the trolls are a vanishingly small minority.

It's full of good stuff.



> All these horrible comments, just because she’s a woman. Just because she’s a woman she has to put up with this torrent of abuse, threats of rape, death threats, and people wishing terminal diseases upon her. It’s no wonder she turned off comments on her video series.
> 
> Just because she’s a woman, a woman, just because she’s a woman, a woman, no man would ever get this kind of abuse, no man would ever get this abuse, ever get this abuse, get this abuse, except of course….
> 
> ...





> That’s 378,000,000 male gamers in the world. Actually likely much higher, but we’ll go with this figure...
> 
> So here is the important question. How many people would it take to create the amount of abusive noise that Anita gets after posting her videos?
> 
> ...





> Can we maybe consider someday actually counting the number of abusive messages we can find, and do actual calculations and see how many people this truly likely represents? Does anyone even know? Even an estimation? Has anyone actually bothered to check?





> The solution? You want an actual workable solution how we can sort this problem out within the next decade or so?
> 
> More young women wanting a career in the games industry!





> Like Jack Thompson, you’re an outsider. Like Jack Thompson, you’ve demonstrably lied on various occasions. Like Jack Thompson, are spitting venom at something you do not understand that a lot of people cherish and hold dear, and like Jack Thompson a large chunk of the gaming community, including the trolls, don’t like you and wish you’d go away, and that’s what is at the root of all this, not what reproductive organs you happen to possess.



I could go on.

Brad Wardell has also put up a perspective on the abuse he receives:



> The tabloid parts of the gaming media shit out a lot of toxicity that lives on forever via search engines. Unaccountable trolls read up on this and then perpetuate the original toxicity by keeping it alive, thus perpetuating the cycle. Meanwhile some cynical people capitalize on the gaming media bias to get career boosting publicity despite their meager real world accomplishments.


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## FridgeMagnet (Sep 1, 2014)

There is actually already a thread on this topic, though as yet it is certainly not full of apologist bullshit such as the above. Well, except as quoted somewhat negatively.


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## Awesome Wells (Sep 1, 2014)

According to this (which is also a list of a bunch of other fucked up stuff involving gamers/designers/morons), Anita Sarkeesian had to leave her home over online threats! Is that true?


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## FridgeMagnet (Sep 1, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> According to this (which is also a list of a bunch of other fucked up stuff involving gamers/designers/morons), Anita Sarkeesian had to leave her home over online threats! Is that true?


Yes.

It is on the other thread that I referred to - http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...o-games-launched.307828/page-13#post-13366428


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## Citizen66 (Sep 4, 2014)

> Just because she’s a woman, a woman, just because she’s a woman, a woman, no man would ever get this kind of abuse, no man would ever get this abuse, ever get this abuse, get this abuse, except of course….



Is this the verse or the chorus?


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## bmd (Sep 4, 2014)

MEN HAVE IT JUST AS BAD! 

Can we have a 'Men Have It Just As Bad' forum please?


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## 8den (Sep 4, 2014)

It is true young white males are the true oppressed victims in the world today.


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## bmd (Sep 4, 2014)

8den said:


> It is true young white males are the true oppressed victims in the world today.


 
Right on brother! God I feel oppressed this morning. My knackers are really dragging me down.


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## Citizen66 (Sep 4, 2014)

We are portrayed as car thieves and gangsters.


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## prunus (Sep 4, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> We are portrayed as car thieves and gangsters.



TBF I am a car thief and a gangster.

Although, I'm not young.  Or White.  Or Male.  Or a car thief.  Or a gangster.

Well, I am white; and mostly male.  

That should clear everything up.


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## Left (Sep 4, 2014)

Jack Thompson got rape threats?

How is she an outsider? She's a gamer. Words can't express how much I hate this attitude that only dudes who spend every waking hour playing FPSs are "real gamers" (and that only games catering to this demographic are real games). I utterly despise this group of manchildren who have pronounced themselves "the gaming community". Imagine how fantastic games could be if designers didn't feel obliged to appeal to these fuckwits.

And what the fuck is the deal with these gamers acting like they're some kind of oppressed minority? It's fucking pathetic. You want to see real discrimination? We need to purge these fuckers from our spaces. No tolerance for their bullshit. Including the kind of mealy mouthed disingenuous apologetics quoted in the OP.


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## toggle (Sep 4, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> We are portrayed as car thieves and gangsters.



and rapists.


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## Pickman's model (Sep 4, 2014)

bmd said:


> MEN HAVE IT JUST AS BAD!
> 
> Can we have a 'Men Have It Just As Bad' forum please?


it might have a positively negative effect on some people's life expectancy


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## Pickman's model (Sep 4, 2014)

toggle said:


> and rapists.


and councillors 

http://www.localgov.co.uk/Less-than-a-third-of-councillors-are-women-report-finds/37073


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## 8den (Sep 4, 2014)

Crazy misogynistic conspiracy theorists gamers.


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## Citizen66 (Sep 4, 2014)

toggle said:


> and rapists.


Aye. All in the same game too!


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## Quartz (Sep 4, 2014)

FridgeMagnet said:


> There is actually already a thread on this topic, though as yet it is certainly not full of apologist bullshit such as the above. Well, except as quoted somewhat negatively.



Have you actually read the article? It's very long and in no way is it 'apologetic bullshit'.


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## Pickman's model (Sep 4, 2014)

Quartz said:


> Have you actually read the article? It's very long and in no way is it 'apologetic bullshit'.


what sort of bullshit is it then?


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## toggle (Sep 4, 2014)

bmd said:


> MEN HAVE IT JUST AS BAD!
> 
> Can we have a 'Men Have It Just As Bad' forum please?



you would be better off with an 'oppressed, straight, christian, white men's forum' where they can gather to share all their woes. 

a small but loyal group. getting smaller. gromit, quartz and JV can wibble together about the feminist conspiracies.


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## Quartz (Sep 4, 2014)

toggle said:


> a small but loyal group. getting smaller. gromit, quartz and JV can wibble together about the feminist conspiracies.



If you read the article, you'll realise that it's not about sexism.


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## Pickman's model (Sep 4, 2014)

Quartz said:


> If you read the article, you'll realise that it's not about sexism.


which doesn't answer


Pickman's model said:


> what sort of bullshit is it then?


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## Quartz (Sep 4, 2014)

Go read it and see that it isn't bullshit.


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## FridgeMagnet (Sep 4, 2014)

I have read it. I wish I hadn't. It is very long and it just gets worse and worse.


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## Pickman's model (Sep 4, 2014)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I have read it. I wish I hadn't. It is very long and it just gets worse and worse.


but is it bullshit?


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## toggle (Sep 4, 2014)

Ok, so rape threats directed at one bloke are equal to rape threats directed at hundreds of women? they present this as Saskerian versus thompson, it isn't. it's one example of a man getting shit (and less shit than she got) versus any women who doesn't hide her gender and opens her mouth for any reason other than to have a penis inserted, or suck her finger inticingly. this proves an equality of abuse? well, only if you consider one man as important as hundreds of women. well, actually, this lot probably do. so I don't know why i'm trying to use that as an argument to them, but I think everyone not drowning in their own privilege can understand. 

And when some fucktard posts a bloke's address and a woman's address along with a rape threat, who is more likely to get their door kicked down by a rapist, and who is more likely to believe they will get their door kicked down by a rapist, and who has been taught by society to fear this and to run their entire existence to avoid rape? have a good think about that before you answer. 

next, yes there are arseholes. shrugging your shoulders and claiming you can't do anyhting about arseholes makes you part of the problem. making excuses for their behavior makes you part of the problem. and i don't think that people who write articles excusing abusive behavior and people who engage in abusive behavior are mutually exclusive groups. the difference is the sheer scale of the problem directed against women, because of ti's widespread acceptance. and the organized abuse of women who speak up. and the fact that your community should be utterly disgusted with itself that it allows this to happen unchecked, that it makes little or no attempt to stand up for the victims of abuse, that it stands on the fucking sidelines and laughs at them, and then tries to minimize their experiences. claiming abuse happens to other people as well and you also do nothing doesn't make misogynist abuse less, it makes you more of an arsehole. 

I would suggest to the author if he's going to use figures to back his assertions, he not make them up out of thin air. I believe 96.3459% of male gamers like unicorns. Ok, that's not believable. I believe 55.459% of male gamers like unicorns. erm, shall I keep going? You see, I can also make up pretend stats that support my claims. or don't. they look really good to minimize a problem and because people are taught to ask for the numbers, they can make a good argument. 'There are lies, damn lies and statistics' said a former president of the royal statistical society. this isn't even statistics poorly applied, it's pure lies. 



I'm only partway through and I can see the blindingly obvious holes in this crappy article. I can do the rest later, but I need a break from the lies, bad analogies, fake stats and general bullshit.


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## toggle (Sep 4, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> but is it bullshit?



yes.


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## toggle (Sep 4, 2014)

Quartz said:


> If you read the article, you'll realise that it's not about sexism.




it's about pretending sexism ins't a problem. 

which makes it about sexism. 

and full of bullshit


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## Quartz (Sep 4, 2014)

toggle said:


> Ok, so rape threats directed at one bloke are equal to rape threats directed at hundreds of women? they present this as Saskerian versus thompson, it isn't.



No, they're using Sarkesian and Thompson as examples. 



> And when some fucktard posts a bloke's address and a woman's address along with a rape threat, who is more likely to get their door kicked down by a rapist, and who is more likely to believe they will get their door kicked down by a rapist, and who has been taught by society to fear this and to run their entire existence to avoid rape? have a good think about that before you answer.



Violence against anyone is wrong.



> next, yes there are arseholes. shrugging your shoulders and claiming you can't do anyhting about arseholes makes you part of the problem. making excuses for their behavior makes you part of the problem. and i don't think that people who write articles excusing abusive behavior and people who engage in abusive behavior are mutually exclusive groups. the difference is the sheer scale of the problem directed against women, because of ti's widespread acceptance.



You've no idea of the extent of the arseholes who direct their ire against men, do you?

Among other things, the article points out that the arseholes are a vanishingly small minority with high visibility, often exacerbated by the press. Nobody pays any attention to the nice people, do they?


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## Pickman's model (Sep 4, 2014)

Quartz said:


> Violence against anyone is wrong.


you know that's a lie.


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## Quartz (Sep 4, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> you know that's a lie.



No. It's sometimes necessary, but it's still wrong.


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## 8ball (Sep 4, 2014)

Well, reading that I didn't realise how common rape and death threats are generally.
I'm coming round to the idea that it might be best to just write humans off as a bad job and nuke the planet from orbit.


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## Pickman's model (Sep 4, 2014)

Quartz said:


> No. It's sometimes necessary, but it's still wrong.


another lie. was it wrong for the spanish anarchists to fight franco? was it wrong to fight hitler?


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## Quartz (Sep 4, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> another lie. was it wrong for the spanish anarchists to fight franco? was it wrong to fight hitler?



Those were self-defence and defence of allies.


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## Pickman's model (Sep 4, 2014)

Quartz said:


> Those were self-defence and defence of allies.


but you said violence is always wrong. now you seem to be retreating from that assertion.


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## Quartz (Sep 4, 2014)

Nope. I said that violence *against* people is always wrong. I also said that it's sometimes necessary, but that doesn't make it right.


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## toggle (Sep 4, 2014)

Quartz said:


> No, they're using Sarkesian and Thompson as examples.



ignoring the relative scale of the problem. trying to minimise the disproportionate levels of sexual threat against women.




> You've no idea of the extent of the arseholes who direct their ire against men, do you?



I know that I've been labelled as one of them because I object to rape threats or offer support to women who get them. because apparently it's being oversensitive to object to a rape threat, but hugely abusive to tell someone making them, or encouraging people making them to fuck off. 




> Among other things, the article points out that the arseholes are a vanishingly small minority with high visibility, often exacerbated by the press. Nobody pays any attention to the nice people, do they?




and instead of fighting arseholes, you give justification of the rights of arseholes and excuse for arseholes. 


i note there is approximately 0% of your post that comments on the useage of fake stats to prove a point.


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## toggle (Sep 4, 2014)

you know, if these fuckwads spent half as much time on actually trying to work with women to eliminate the sexism that hurts men and women, we could actually start to really make some progress in fixing the fucking problem.


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## Quartz (Sep 4, 2014)

toggle said:


> and instead of fighting arseholes, you give justification of the rights of arseholes and excuse for arseholes./QUOTE]
> 
> No I don't. Nor does the article. Let me repeat a quote from my OP, which you've clearly not bothered to read because otherwise you wouldn't be making those statements:
> 
> ...


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## tommers (Sep 4, 2014)

http://www.theguardian.com/technolo...e-corruption-games-anita-sarkeesian-zoe-quinn

I think this just about sums up my thoughts on this.


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## Quartz (Sep 4, 2014)

tommers said:


> http://www.theguardian.com/technolo...e-corruption-games-anita-sarkeesian-zoe-quinn
> 
> I think this just about sums up my thoughts on this.



That's a good piece.


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## Awesome Wells (Sep 4, 2014)

This should make all the whiny women feel better.

After all what could be more egalitarian than a (pen and paper) Gor RPG?

http://postmortemstudios.wordpress.com/2014/08/21/chronicles-of-gor-rpg-crowdfunding/


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## Pickman's model (Sep 4, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> This should make all the whiny women feel better.


i think you need to read this http://www.westegg.com/unmaintained/carnegie/win-friends.html


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## Awesome Wells (Sep 4, 2014)

8den said:


> Crazy misogynistic conspiracy theorists gamers.



What the hell is this shit?


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## 8ball (Sep 4, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> What the hell is this shit?


 
That would be 4chan.


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## Awesome Wells (Sep 4, 2014)

8ball said:


> That would be 4chan.


i should have known.


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## tommers (Sep 4, 2014)

Jenn Frank has stopped writing about games following her details being put online, threats etc etc.

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/sep/01/how-to-attack-a-woman-who-works-in-video-games

This shit is so depressing.  I looked at her twitter account, people are celebrating like they've won some kind of victory.


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## Awesome Wells (Sep 4, 2014)

If companies like MS and Sony (hosts of their own gaming networks) actually made more of an effort to moderate the behaviour thererein - likewise for youtbue - half this shit wouldn't happen. People are wllowed to get away with being dicks.


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## Pickman's model (Sep 4, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> People are wllowed to get away with being dicks.


very true, very true


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## Awesome Wells (Sep 4, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> i think you need to read this http://www.westegg.com/unmaintained/carnegie/win-friends.html


I think you need to understand sarcasm you daft twat.


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## Pickman's model (Sep 4, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> I think you need to understand sarcasm you daft twat.


your posts give no indication you've advanced to the lowest form of wit.


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## toggle (Sep 4, 2014)

Quartz said:


> ...



lets get more women into the industry where the levels of abuse against women drive women from the industry. and fucking celebrate this shit. 





tommers said:


> Jenn Frank has stopped writing about games following her details being put online, threats etc etc.
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/sep/01/how-to-attack-a-woman-who-works-in-video-games
> 
> This shit is so depressing.  I looked at her twitter account, people are celebrating like they've won some kind of victory.


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## 8ball (Sep 4, 2014)

toggle said:


> lets get more women into the industry where the levels of abuse against women drive women from the industry. and fucking celebrate this shit.


 
Not sure what you mean by this.


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## Awesome Wells (Sep 4, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> your posts give no indication you've advanced to the lowest form of wit.


so you've just come here, again, to troll. Like you always do. It's fucking obvious the post is sarcastic. Are you unfamiliar with the Gor novels you dumb cunt? 

No imainge you aren't, now that I think about it. After all you have a history of stalking and harassing people, which makes your presence on this thread particularly ironic.


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## Pickman's model (Sep 4, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> Are you unfamiliar with the Gor novels you dumb cunt?
> 
> No imainge you aren't, now that I think about it.


what you're saying here is that you think i am familiar with the gor novels. the double negative, you see... is this the message you intended to send or are you "a dumb cunt"?





> After all you have a history of stalking and harassing people, which makes your presence on this thread particularly ironic.


we've been through this before... i am not stalking you, i am not harassing you, i only posted a link i think you should read because instead of making friends and influencing people you alienate people. i suppose it's nearly cancer o'clock where you are.


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## Awesome Wells (Sep 4, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> what you're saying here is that you think i am familiar with the gor novels. the double negative, you see... is this the message you intended to send or are you "a dumb cunt"?we've been through this before... i am not stalking you, i am not harassing you, i only posted a link i think you should read because instead of making friends and influencing people you alienate people. i suppose it's nearly cancer o'clock where you are.


Why can't you just get it through your cunt head that I don't want you following me around. Just leave me the fuck alone you stupid piece of shit. Just fucking die.


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## Pickman's model (Sep 4, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> Why can't you just get it through your cunt head that I don't want you following me around. Just leave me the fuck alone you stupid piece of shit. Just fucking die.


do you consider this a proportionate response?


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## tommers (Sep 4, 2014)

Is there not enough of this shit already going on?   Put a fucking sock in it.


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## Awesome Wells (Sep 4, 2014)

tommers said:


> Is there not enough of this shit already going on?   Put a fucking sock in it.


That's up to the stalker.


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## Lord Hugh (Sep 4, 2014)

Ugh


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## toggle (Sep 4, 2014)

8ball said:


> Not sure what you mean by this.



simply that if the women in the industry are being driven out by abuse, then trying to recruit more women isn't an effective solution to abuse.


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## 8ball (Sep 4, 2014)

toggle said:


> simply that if the women in the industry are being driven out by abuse, then trying to recruit more women isn't an effective solution to abuse.



It's not as extreme an example but where I work one of the technical departments had a fairly sexist and homophobic culture a while back.  Things changed quite rapidly when some female and gay (of both sexes) programmers came along, after a few initial bumps and scrapes.

I think it's not really the industry so much as a certain demographic of gamers that have the furthest to go.  There are already lots of very talented women in the industry and they're not going anywhere, girls and women are playing games and making games and I can't see that stopping.

I think the level of histrionics from some of the real idiots is just a matter of having a tantrum because they know that sooner or later they are going to have to grow up or be left behind.


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## Vintage Paw (Sep 5, 2014)

There's a large element of truth to that, 8ball. At the same time, any visible female developers are at some point or another the subject of a hate campaign. (Jennifer Epler, Brianna Wu, Zoe Quinn being just three that immediately come to mind but there are plenty more.) It's not just aimed at players on xbox live or something, it's across the board. If you're a woman and you try to engage in any way you'll pay a price for the temerity of doing so.

With that in mind, and thanks to the 'brogrammer' culture that is prevalent in many parts of the industry (and lots of very unhelpful comments by some high profile male devs about certain things), and of course bearing in mind the context of women not being encouraged to take jobs in tech (hence part of the reason we have such a massive disparity in numbers between genders in all areas of tech), we're simply not going to see the numbers of women entering tech in the short term to counter it effectively.

So it's not a case of simply just get more women making games and the problem will go away. That's one part of the solution. The other is to tackle at every single opportunity the vile, poisonous attitudes that help these behaviours remain normalised.

Things like the open letter signed by a couple of thousand industry people (mostly men) are a good thing. Articles by editors of prominent gaming magazines stating their no-tolerance policy to sexism are another good thing. It's not enough to say "women, I support your right to play a game without being threatened with rape and murder" -- that's hollow if you sit back and do a little secret snigger when you read the vitriol heaped on us. That's hollow if you don't tell people they are pricks when you see them doing it. And that's not just about the rape threats. It's about everything else as well. It's the denying sexism and misogyny exist, or if they do then denying it should be tackled because "it's just internet banter." It's refusing to countenance the idea that some images in games might be harmful and perpetuate matters. It's all of it.

Super late edit: Jennifer Hepler, not Epler. There are also 2 Epler's who work for the same company, I got mixed up.


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## tommers (Sep 6, 2014)

Zoe quinn is putting up screenshots of people discussing taking her personal details,  making up the DDOS stuff etc etc.   Also organising this whole #GamerGate nonsense.  Looks like she's been monitoring them for a time. 

All gone to the police.


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## Epona (Sep 7, 2014)

Given that in the UK the gaming population is about 45% female, sometimes I just want to shout "we're here, we're gaming, get over it".
Unfortunately it's not really about gaming, it's a reflection of misogyny generally in society.  Misogyny in games would not be tolerated, if it were not also tolerated outside of games.
But there are things that come up that are viewed by a small minority as a threat to "gamer culture", even though they have a skewed view of "gamer culture" as being predominantly young, white, and male, which is simply not true.

Anyway, I have to go off and defend a keep - with my guildmates who include me (40 something female), a bloke who is 20, a bloke who is 32, a bloke who is 58, and a woman who is in her 60s.
It's high time that there was some sort of realisation that gaming interests all sorts of people, all genders, all ages, all races; and there is no place for discrimination in gaming, we are all doing it, and it needs to reflect society more rather than being seen as a hobby for young white males.


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## Vintage Paw (Sep 7, 2014)

Whereas I, taking a break from blowing things up with fire and stabbinating people in pvp, am living up to the casual girl gamer cliche and playing The Sims


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## Awesome Wells (Sep 7, 2014)

tommers said:


> Zoe quinn is putting up screenshots of people discussing taking her personal details,  making up the DDOS stuff etc etc.   Also organising this whole #GamerGate nonsense.  Looks like she's been monitoring them for a time.
> 
> All gone to the police.


Are they really going to do anything?


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## FridgeMagnet (Sep 7, 2014)

This thread is basically and increasingly duplicating stuff on the other one, but merging them would be confusing, so I'm going to close this and leave a link: http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...men-vs-tropes-in-video-games-launched.307828/


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