# Beating the Fascists: The authorised history of Anti-Fascist Action



## cogg (May 24, 2010)

At last, the book anti-fascists have been waiting to for years is out on the 
28th July.

From the blurb: “Following the electoral collapse of the National Front in 1979, fascists went on the rampage. Race attacks escalated. NF/BNP gangs employed violence on the streets, on the terraces and to control the music scene. Young anti-fascists stepped up. A new hardline leadership emerged and AFA was formed in 1985. ‘A state of war’ was how one rueful BNP leader would describe what happened next.

Not only is ‘Beating the Fascists’ a meticulously researched study, it is also a much-needed piece of ‘history from below’. Throughout, the voices of working class anti-fascists come across hard, clear, and without apology. Illuminating and sometimes chilling by turn, the running commentary they provide helps ensure the tempo never flags. Gradually the reader is drawn into an outlaw world of back street idealism, paramilitary style violence and heroic self-sacrifice”.

http://www.freedompress.org.uk/news/afa-book/

Note to mods, posted here for discussion not as an ad.


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## The39thStep (May 24, 2010)

Bollocks I am off on holiday a couple of days before its actually published. Still it will be great to know that it will be waiting on return.

Wasn't it the case that when AFA had it inuagrual meeting in a pub in North London the pub was attacked by fash who were then promptly seen off or am I getting confused?


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## articul8 (May 25, 2010)

> "one of the most effective political groups of the past quarter of a century."



discuss


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## revlon (May 25, 2010)

they were very effective. Not really a group.


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## Pickman's model (May 25, 2010)

revlon said:


> they were very effective. Not really a group.



what, more a way of life?


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## The39thStep (May 25, 2010)

revlon said:


> they were very effective. Not really a group.



more of a combo?


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## revlon (May 25, 2010)

a drinking club?

a force of nature?

an organisation with lots of different groups, and lots of different politics?


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## Louis MacNeice (May 25, 2010)

In some people's mind a trusted brand?

Louis MacNeice


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## Fozzie Bear (May 25, 2010)

So I'm guessing that Freedom Press have put their emphasis on pacifism well and truly behind them? 

Looking forward to this, I always found AFA's stuff really well written - something which perhaps got overlooked at the time.


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## articul8 (May 25, 2010)

Should be interesting - certainly they were "effective" in their short term aims, combatting a certain kind of street-fighting fascist threat.  Which I guess was their main thing.  But it's a very limited sort of effectiveness that doesn't build capacity for a positive alternative.


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## treelover (May 25, 2010)

and for many a love of violence?..


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## ViolentPanda (May 25, 2010)

treelover said:


> and for many a love of violence?..



"Many"?
I'd agree that there's always a few people who like the aggro, but IME people fought the NF and BNP because it was necessary to do so to get them off our streets, not because "everyone loves a barney".


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## Fedayn (May 25, 2010)

articul8 said:


> Should be interesting - certainly they were "effective" in their short term aims, combatting a certain kind of street-fighting fascist threat.  Which I guess was their main thing.  *But it's a very limited sort of effectiveness that doesn't build capacity for a positive alternative*.



That's a rather unfair review given the many very good documents from within AFA, which, whether 'official' AFA or RA have, more often than not, been entirely borne out by events. Undoubtedly for many on the Left they simply viewed AFA as a 'street activist group' however their politics and writings more than stand the test when looked at today.


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## articul8 (May 25, 2010)

as critique maybe but in terms of building an alternative?


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## trevhagl (May 25, 2010)

10+ posts and no real secretarian whinging - c'mon Urban whats up with you!


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## The39thStep (May 25, 2010)

articul8 said:


> Should be interesting - certainly they were "effective" in their short term aims, combatting a certain kind of street-fighting fascist threat.  Which I guess was their main thing.  But it's a very limited sort of effectiveness that doesn't build capacity for a positive alternative.



Elements within AFA came to that conclusion around 1999-



> AFA's founding statement: "to confront the fascists physically and ideologically," has so far only been partially implemented. Part one has been successfully completed, now we must address part two. Part two: 'confronting the far-right ideologically' means confronting them with a political alternative [RA emphasis]. Which means we must begin to systematically fill the existing political vacuum, in working class communities, in whole swathes of London and elsewhere, that we have created by our own efforts. We have won the 'war' - lets not lose the peace.


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## cogg (May 25, 2010)

Fozzie Bear said:


> So I'm guessing that Freedom Press have put their emphasis on pacifism well and truly behind them?
> 
> Looking forward to this, I always found AFA's stuff really well written - something which perhaps got overlooked at the time.



This IS really well written and is one of those books that you read immediately and then return to again and again.

I've read various drafts of it over the time it was being wrtitten as well as the final draft but I was re-checking the text for the index at the weekend when I realised I'd just read 30 pages without blinking.


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## revlon (May 26, 2010)

26 seconds - class image.


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## tbaldwin (May 26, 2010)

revlon said:


> 26 seconds - class image.



The main person in the fighting was x RA. He left after being continuosly slagged off by the leadership.


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## Divisive Cotton (May 26, 2010)

where and when was that filmed


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## Sean (May 26, 2010)

tbaldwin said:


> The main person in the fighting was x RA. He left after being continuosly slagged off by the leadership.



Thought he was always DAM


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## Divisive Cotton (May 26, 2010)

At first it looked like Tall Paul from Liverpool but not so sure


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## past caring (May 26, 2010)

tbaldwin said:


> The main person in the fighting was x RA. He left after being continuosly slagged off by the leadership.



Yawn.


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## cogg (May 26, 2010)

tbaldwin said:


> The main person in the fighting was x RA. He left after being continuosly slagged off by the leadership.



Top marks for being pointlessly mendacious.


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## past caring (May 26, 2010)

And utterly predictable, too, don't forget.


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## Sean (May 26, 2010)

past caring said:


> And utterly predictable, too, don't forget.


It's true. Baldwin is the quintessence of twattery.


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## Nice one (May 26, 2010)

being devil's advocate for a moment - a few people involved, maybe from the yorkshire area, would say it's not their history of afa - is it fair to be THE authrorised history, instead of AN authorised history?


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## cogg (May 26, 2010)

Nice one said:


> being devil's advocate for a moment - a few people involved, *maybe from the yorkshire area*, would say it's not their history of afa - is it fair to be THE authrorised history, instead of AN authorised history?



Presumably they'd have to read it before they disagreed with what was in it?


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## butchersapron (May 26, 2010)

Where's the launch party?


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## articul8 (May 26, 2010)

I'd suggest not advertising it unless you're after "phoenix from the flames"


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## tbaldwin (May 26, 2010)

Nice one said:


> being devil's advocate for a moment - a few people involved, maybe from the yorkshire area, would say it's not their history of afa - is it fair to be THE authrorised history, instead of AN authorised history?



Were they from the West Yorkshire branch who got forced out?


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## Nice one (May 26, 2010)

cogg said:


> Presumably they'd have to read it before they disagreed with what was in it?



wouldn't it be more of a perspective thing? Anarchists being left out of having their say as part of the text/narrative?


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## butchersapron (May 26, 2010)

The39thStep said:


> Elements within AFA came to that conclusion around 1999-



Been shown by ftv and other stuff, 100 p/c right. Analysis of this type or quality was not even attempted by the other afa components 

Loving the Internet gossip liam


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## cogg (May 26, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Where's the launch party?



No venue yet but somewhere in central london.


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## Divisive Cotton (May 26, 2010)

Bash the fash: Anti-Fascist recollections 1984-1993 is worth a read:

http://www.katesharpleylibrary.net/fqz6p2


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## Divisive Cotton (May 26, 2010)

The same author wrote The Couriers are Revolting : The Despatch Industry Workers Union 1989-92, which is worth a read too:

http://www.katesharpleylibrary.net/cvdp4s


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## cogg (May 26, 2010)

Nice one said:


> wouldn't it be more of a perspective thing? Anarchists being left out of having their say as part of the text/narrative?



How would you know as you haven't read it?
In my AFA branch, we all had the same perspective.


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## love detective (May 26, 2010)

if anyone's interested, the pre-order offer/email address has been taken down for just now due to 'overwhelming interest' (from both media/press and orders) - online ordering/shopping cart stuff should be up in the next few days and a dedicated email address for press/media enquiries

launch party stuff still being organised, potentially some regional ones in addition to the london event


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## Larry O'Hara (May 31, 2010)

Nice one said:


> being devil's advocate for a moment - a few people involved, maybe from the yorkshire area, would say it's not their history of afa



perhaps those people can get _Searchlight _to publish their version?


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## revlon (Jun 1, 2010)

Larry O'Hara said:


> perhaps those people can get _Searchlight _to publish their version?



just finished reading your Again Plucking the White Rose. Interesting stuff.


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## Larry O'Hara (Jun 1, 2010)

revlon said:


> just finished reading your Again Plucking the White Rose. Interesting stuff.



Indeed: and there is yet more to come out on Yorkshire, hence the Indymedia hysteria!


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## audiotech (Jun 1, 2010)

A short introduction to the ideology of Anti-Fascist Action (UK), followed by a practical demonstration.


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## miktheword (Jun 5, 2010)

tbaldwin said:


> The main person in the fighting was x RA. He left after being continuosly slagged off by the leadership.



TBaldwin, I was with that group just before that bit. A small break away from the main AFA group, we'd left Waterloo; after the fascists got routed they were on the run and  stumbled into that small group of RA /AFA /ex-RA. 

Unlike your comment, I don't think ideology or sectarianism came into the mind of the 'main man' as you say, in that action. He knew he he wanted to be with on that day.
A very good rearguard action by the few, the only bit of the day that the media showed...wonder why? couldn't show the Reds being the violent victors could they?!

LOH, great comment re Searchlight/ Leeds


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## TremulousTetra (Jun 6, 2010)

articul8 said:


> Should be interesting - certainly they were "effective" in their short term aims, combatting a certain kind of street-fighting fascist threat.  Which I guess was their main thing.  But it's a very limited sort of effectiveness that doesn't build capacity for a positive alternative.


 so what sort of opposition to fascism would you propose, that wouldn't have a "limited sort of effectiveness"?


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## tbaldwin (Jun 6, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> so what sort of opposition to fascism would you propose, that wouldn't have a "limited sort of effectiveness"?



Personally i think the best thing would be to build a genuine socialist alternative.
One that tells it like it is immigration ( that would undercut lots of the fascists support) One that is clearly anti social crime and in the words of the twat tb (blair not baldwin) is "tough on crime and tough on the causes of crime"
The threat from the BNP in itself is very limited due to them being twats.
But even twats like them do have the chance of more success than the far left who seem to DESPISE working class people.


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## Deareg (Jun 6, 2010)

tbaldwin said:


> Personally i think the best thing would be to build a genuine socialist alternative.
> *One that tells it like it is immigration ( that would undercut lots of the fascists support)* One that is clearly anti social crime and in the words of the twat tb (blair not baldwin) is "tough on crime and tough on the causes of crime"
> The threat from the BNP in itself is very limited due to them being twats.
> But even twats like them do have the chance of more success than the far left who seem to DESPISE working class people.



not sure what you mean by this line?


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## tbaldwin (Jun 7, 2010)

Deareg said:


> not sure what you mean by this line?



I mean by tells it like it is on immigration.
Tells people directly why economic migration is being encouraged and why that is bad thing for poorer people right across the world.


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## Pickman's model (Jun 7, 2010)

seems to me our own tb is saying that the best way to undercut the fash is to acknowledge they have a point.


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## Deareg (Jun 7, 2010)

tbaldwin said:


> I mean by tells it like it is on immigration.
> Tells people directly why economic migration is being encouraged and why that is bad thing for poorer people right across the world.



i must be thick mate sorry, but i am still not sure what you mean, bad for who? the immigrants? the native population?


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## tbaldwin (Jun 7, 2010)

Deareg said:


> i must be thick mate sorry, but i am still not sure what you mean, bad for who? the immigrants? the native population?



Well obviously i dont think its bad for all who migrate. Though of course it doesnt exactly turn out great for loads. And of course iam not saying its bad for all the native population.
Some people will really benefit from increasing the supply of labour and increasing people who want to rent and buy homes.
But i would argue how much you benefit more often than not corresponds with what you own have in this society.

Summing it up the rich and the middle class who are usually the most pro immigration have most to gain from it!

But the other aspect that is overlooked is the absulutely dire consequences for people left behind in poorer nations, if the young and skilled workers they most need leave.

I think the left are associated with views on migration that are really daft and reactionary. And it is one of the reasons they are so politically irrelevant.
They think there being right on by being pro immigrant. But they need to look at the international consequences of the policies they support and hang their heads in shame.


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## Larry O'Hara (Jun 8, 2010)

While the debate here seems to be smouldering, a regular phalanx of trolls (and others) is active on the Indymedia thread concerning the book. Check it out http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2010/05/452031.html?c=on

edited to add: although the debate on Indymedia had caught fire, somebody wants to piss on it, it seems: three contributions have just disappeared from there, including a link to my on-line article 'Again Plucking the White Rose', mentioned previously on this thread.  As it annoys people with something to hide, I've tried again over there, but will also put the link here http://www.borderland.co.uk/preview_007.htm


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## butchersapron (Jun 8, 2010)

Embarrassing that.


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## Larry O'Hara (Jun 8, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Embarrassing that.



censorship?

the events outlined in my original article, which the AFA book will hopefully elaborate on?


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## Larry O'Hara (Jun 8, 2010)

Interestingly, the disappeared comments have now reappeared, along with an abusive comment--almost as if Indymedia pulled it and then reinstated it after being given permission...


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## butchersapron (Jun 8, 2010)

Larry O'Hara said:


> censorship?
> 
> the events outlined in my original article, which the AFA book will hopefully elaborate on?



The whole indymedia thread. Not sure if i've seen the pre or post-censorship version. Not your article.


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## Larry O'Hara (Jun 8, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> The whole indymedia thread. Not sure if i've seen the pre or post-censorship version. Not your article.



the censored version only lasted for 20 minutes (posts jumped from 141 back to 138, then leapt back to 142).

As for embarrassing--maybe so, but it indicates the book has contents which some fear.


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## Divisive Cotton (Jun 8, 2010)

Larry O'Hara said:


> While the debate here seems to be smouldering, a regular phalanx of trolls (and others) is active on the Indymedia thread concerning the book. Check it out http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2010/05/452031.html?c=on



fucking hell what a depressing thread - you sort of lose the will to live half way through


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## cozmikbrew (Jun 8, 2010)

Divisive Cotton said:


> fucking hell what a depressing thread - you sort of lose the will to live half way through


Mmm my thoughts exactly,an just out of curiosity,anyone any thoughts/opinions on the accusations levelled at a certain Malcolm Astell?


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## The39thStep (Jun 8, 2010)

Pretty much sets outs the anarchist case .They haven't even read the book  My recollection for what it is worth is that aside from some elements mainly within Class War and DAM AFA wasn't heaving with anarchists, there were a lot of non aligned but there were even SWP members and Labour types involved. In fact I can even remember Workers Power's contribution.

Aside from the one minute wonders who may have been temporally involved, those who weren't but think they should have been  and the fash posting on Indymedia who is putting the smears out on O'Shea and why now?


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## laptop (Jun 8, 2010)

So now this is proof positive that indymedia's a secret service asset?


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## The39thStep (Jun 8, 2010)

laptop said:


> So now this is proof positive that indymedia's a secret service asset?



Its got have some use


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## laptop (Jun 8, 2010)

The39thStep said:


> Its got have some use



This is written where?


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## Larry O'Hara (Jun 8, 2010)

laptop said:


> So now this is proof positive that indymedia's a secret service asset?



your usual irrelevance--certainly wouldn't accuse you of being an asset to anybody.  Woof!


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## Larry O'Hara (Jun 8, 2010)

The39thStep said:


> Aside from the one minute wonders who may have been temporally involved, those who weren't but think they should have been  and the fash posting on Indymedia who is putting the smears out on O'Shea and why now?



Pretty clearly, those who are concerned about the full truth coming out of _Searchlight_/spook infiltration into AFA, especially Yorkshire.


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## laptop (Jun 8, 2010)

But... but... 

urban75 annoys o'H at least as much as indymedia.

So by the same logic urban75 must be a security service asset too.

But o'H is associated with urban75.

So...


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## Larry O'Hara (Jun 8, 2010)

laptop said:


> But... but...
> 
> urban75 annoys o'H at least as much as indymedia.
> 
> ...



more irrelevance from a sad troll--shouldn't this comment be put on the drugs forum?  If laptop isn't taking regular medication, he should be...


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## laptop (Jun 8, 2010)

Oooh, the eloquence and persuasiveness and sheer logical force of the argument is *too much*.


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## Divisive Cotton (Jun 8, 2010)

cozmikbrew said:


> Mmm my thoughts exactly,an just out of curiosity,anyone any thoughts/opinions on the accusations levelled at a certain Malcolm Astell?



This quote here: 



> but he was certainly not well-respected by anarchists generally.



That's nonsense - he was very well respected amongst the anarchists that counted anyway. 

I remember loads of people from Liverpool and elsewhere squaring up to a couple of Searchlight sellers at the Newcastle open air gig (the one where the Shamen played) and telling them that the repeated accusation in Searchlight that Malcolm was a NF agent was wrong and not to repeat the accusation again


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## Divisive Cotton (Jun 8, 2010)

Just to add why Searchlight had it in for him was that after his time as the NF Youth Organiser in east Anglia he briefed the anarchists about what went on and ignored Searchlight and they never forgave him for it


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## cozmikbrew (Jun 8, 2010)

Mmm,was a genuine question,thanks for genuine answer,i was at Newcatle,an yeah he made no secret of his ex NF activities,as someone who was an active Anti Facsist during ''The AFA years'' for want of a better term was just interested in what the passing of time had done to said rumours/allegations,ill read the book at somepoint


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## Nice one (Jun 9, 2010)

the main criticism (excluding the personal stuff) is that the anarchists were left out of the story - again from people who haven't read the book. It centred on the title if anything - THE authorised history. This has been resolved.

Freedom have been contacted by anarchists (involved at the time) over concerns about the book, hopefully this too has been resolved although i imagine some of us aren't going to be invited up to leeds any time soon.


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## Larry O'Hara (Jun 9, 2010)

Nice one said:


> i imagine some of us aren't going to be invited up to leeds any time soon.



me neither--nor, it seems, Bradford 

doesn't mean I won't go of course....


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## Deareg (Jun 9, 2010)

after reading the freedom press debate on the new AFA book, what struck me most was the attitude and reaction to it completely mirror Red Actions response to No Retreat, including condemning it before it was even published, what goes around comes around?


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## past caring (Jun 9, 2010)

The situations are in no way comparable.


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## Deareg (Jun 9, 2010)

no?


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## FreddyB (Jun 9, 2010)

I don't know if this it's just in the Midlands (Birmingham and Notingham specifically) but I know people from RA and anarchists who were involved in AFA who still work together now. The stuff I read about on the internet about AFA, the arguments and emnity between RA and anarchists is purely confined to the internet.


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## past caring (Jun 9, 2010)

Deareg said:


> no?



I'll give you a clue - on what basis were RA's criticisms of No Retreat made? Were those criticism valid, or not?


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## Deareg (Jun 9, 2010)

past caring said:


> I'll give you a clue - on what basis were RA's criticisms of No Retreat made? Were those criticism valid, or not?



no i don't believe the criticisms were valid but that is not the point i was making, RA criticisms boiled down to who wrote the book, not the fact that the book was written, they slagged off the book and the authors even before the book was published, personal stuff, grudges and unproved allegations were dragged up and used to smear the authors, just as is happening with this book, true or not?


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## past caring (Jun 9, 2010)

So let's take this step by step.

Wasn't one of the major issues for RA the fact that one of the authors - Steve Tilzey - was a Searchlight operative? And had been both during his time in AFA and whilst contact with Searchlight had been proscribed? And that he had passed information on AFA activities to Searchlight but had, on Searchlight instructions, either witheld or given duff information to AFA?

Now, let's assume for the moment those allegations are true (we can discuss whether they actually are true, or are likely to be, in a moment) - are these criticisms which "boil down to who wrote the book...personal stuff, grudges" or are they political?


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## Deareg (Jun 9, 2010)

past caring said:


> So let's take this step by step.
> 
> Wasn't one of the major issues for RA the fact that one of the authors - Steve Tilzey - was a Searchlight operative? And had been both during his time in AFA and whilst contact with Searchlight had been proscribed? And that he had passed information on AFA activities to Searchlight but had, on Searchlight instructions, either witheld or given duff information to AFA?
> 
> Now, let's assume for the moment those allegations are true (we can discuss whether they actually are true, or are likely to be, in a moment) - are these criticisms which "boil down to who wrote the book...personal stuff, grudges" or are they political?



Tilzley was in indeed working for/with searchlight, but so were red action when it suited them, no idea whether the second point in your post is true so i wont assume anything, rather i will keep an open-mind,unless you can provide proof, have you any proof? and it wasn't just about tilzley was it? just as much, if not even more vitriol was directed at Dave Hann, so i still say it was more about who wrote the book ala this latest book


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## past caring (Jun 9, 2010)

Scoundrel or fool? I'll give it one last shot - though I suspect I'm wasting my breath. 

Yes - everyone in AFA (RA, DAM, Class War) worked with Searchlight until the penny dropped that they were a state sponsored adjunct with their own agenda. The point about Tilzey is that he worked for Searchlight _after_ the penny dropped, after contact with them had been proscribed and then lied about it.

Again, I'll ask - assuming the above can be proved - would objections to such actions be personal or political in character? A simple yes or no will do.


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## cogg (Jun 9, 2010)

Ian Bone gives the book a ringing  endorsement on his blog which shows that the argument isn't between anarchists and RA.
Bone understands the importance of AFA and what it did.

http://ianbone.wordpress.com/2010/06/02/anti-fascist-action-the-authorised-history/


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## Deareg (Jun 9, 2010)

past caring said:


> Scoundrel or fool? I'll give it one last shot - though I suspect I'm wasting my breath.
> 
> Yes - everyone in AFA (RA, DAM, Class War) worked with Searchlight until the penny dropped that they were a state sponsored adjunct with their own agenda. The point about Tilzey is that he worked for Searchlight _after_ the penny dropped, after contact with them had been proscribed and then lied about it.
> 
> Again, I'll ask - assuming the above can be proved - would objections to such actions be personal or political in character? A simple yes or no will do.



if the shit had of all been about tilzley then i would be inclined to have given you a straight yes, despite the fact that red action continued to associate withn searchlight long after you are admitting, if i recall correctly searchlight were declared dodgy in or around 87/88? yet weren't oshea and gable on trial together in 90? and you are deliberately ignoring the fact that just as much if not more of the animosity towards No Retreat was centered around dave hann, was this politically motivated? my arse it was, it was personal, i have already said i am not going to make assuptions about tilzley use of intelligence, so i am asking you again, have you any proof? you asked me for a simple answer and i have tried to give you one, the question i am asking you is a lot easier to answer, yes or no?


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## past caring (Jun 9, 2010)

1. The Searchlight proscription was much later - September 97.

2. "By their friends shall you know them" - RA going public with the Hann story was as a direct result of his involvement with Tilzey and No Retreat. The book was undoubtedly a spoiler operation and named names. My understanding, from those involved, was that RA would have kept schtum had Hann done likewise. 

Lengthy discussion of the background and Hann court case- with contributions from Tilzey and Hann themselves can be found here and here.    I'm confident as to which version of events comes across as the more credible.


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## Divisive Cotton (Jun 9, 2010)

It's funny reading the fascist reviews of No Retreat on Amazon: http://www.amazon.co.uk/product-rev...?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=0&filterBy=addOneStar


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## Deareg (Jun 9, 2010)

past caring said:


> 1. The Searchlight proscription was much later - September 97.
> 
> 2. "By their friends shall you know them" - RA going public with the Hann story was as a direct result of his involvement with Tilzey and No Retreat. The book was undoubtedly a spoiler operation and named names. My understanding, from those involved, was that RA would have kept schtum had Hann done likewise.
> 
> Lengthy discussion of the background and Hann court case- with contributions from Tilzey and Hann themselves can be found here and here.    I'm confident as which version of events comes across as the more credible.



searchlight were known as state assets back in the 80ies, if it took red action up until 97 to sever ties with them then shame on red action.

a spoiler for what exactly? it only named nick names and initials and as no one has ever been charged or to my knowledge even arrested on foot of anything in the book, then no harm done, and what was dave supposed to be keeping schtum about? he was found not guilty of the mugging charge and was quite happy to discuss it with anyone who asked him for details, i will ask you one last time, have you any proof for the allegations that you made about tilzleys missuse on intelligence? i can only assume that you are quite happy to continually indulge in unsubstanciated slandering of other anti fascists, i hope i am wrong in making this assumption


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## past caring (Jun 9, 2010)

Deareg said:


> searchlight were known as state assets back in the 80ies, if it took red action up until 97 to sever ties with them then shame on red action.



I know you're ability to write isn't up to much, but is your ability to read as equally poor? Or is the misunderstanding deliberate? My post referred to AFA proscribing Searchlight, not RA. There were many within my AFA branch who were resistant to the policy of Searchlight's proscription even after it had been democratically agreed and the evidence of its state involvement was there for all to see. Are you suggesting that RA should have simply ignored AFA's democratic structures and simply dictated to the wider organisation?



> a spoiler for what exactly? it only named nick names and initials and as no one has ever been charged or to my knowledge even arrested on foot of anything in the book, then no harm done,



Perhaps no harm was done (yet), but this was no thanks to the authors. Individuals were identifiable from the nick names and initials used - certainly there were enough fash on the old RA boards able to join the dots. Did Tilzey and Hann check with any of the individuals beforehand whether they felt their identities had been concealed sufficiently? Did they fuck. When No Retreat came out, where were the cunts over on libcom who are now moaning about anarchists not being consulted on the _politics_ of the AFA book? Were they suitably outraged and working themselves into a lather on the internet? Again, were they fuck.



> and what was dave supposed to be keeping schtum about? he was found not guilty of the mugging charge and was quite happy to discuss it with anyone who asked him for details,



The fact that someone gets a guilty is not proof that they did the thing they were accused of. Surely this is ABC for those involved in political opposition to the state? And the opposite applies - a not guilty in court doesn't mean the indivual didn't do it. Defences can be constructed, as I'm sure we're all aware.



> i will ask you one last time, have you any proof for the allegations that you made about tilzleys missuse on intelligence? i can only assume that you are quite happy to continually indulge in unsubstanciated slandering of other anti fascists, i hope i am wrong in making this assumption



Proof? His own admissions that he was a Searchlight operative and worked to their agenda.


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## BlackArab (Jun 9, 2010)

cogg said:


> Ian Bone gives the book a ringing  endorsement on his blog which shows that the argument isn't between anarchists and RA.
> Bone understands the importance of AFA and what it did.
> 
> http://ianbone.wordpress.com/2010/06/02/anti-fascist-action-the-authorised-history/



Interesting comments following the review. The first post from Rasta pretty much matches my feelings and I do look forward to getting hold of this book.


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## Divisive Cotton (Jun 9, 2010)

There are some hilarious comments on that Ian Bone thread


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## Deareg (Jun 9, 2010)

past caring said:


> I know you're ability to write isn't up to much, but is your ability to read as equally poor? Or is the misunderstanding deliberate? My post referred to AFA proscribing Searchlight, not RA. There were many within my AFA branch who were resistant to the policy of Searchlight's proscription even after it had been democratically agreed and the evidence of its state involvement was there for all to see. Are you suggesting that RA should have simply ignored AFA's democratic structures and simply dictated to the wider organisation?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



before i begin this post i will apologise for not having gone to the same school as you, now, i nearly fucking pissed myself laughing at your "logic", are you really arguing that it was democratic of red action to work with people that they believed were british agents and who were passing information on anti-fascist activists on to the special branch? information that most definitely could have lead to comrades being sent to jail,

the fact that no one has ever been arrested means they put no one at risk, unlike red action continuing to work with state assets, that is if your version of events is true which i find hard to believe, but don't let the facts get in the way of a good smear campaign? i have no idea where the "cunts" on libcom were as i have no idea who any of them are,

who the fuck needs diplock courts with cunts like you on the loose? dave was tried and found not guilty, did you ever even know him? i doubt it, what about the rape allegation being thrown around about this current author? i could argue that plenty of fucking rapists never see the inside of a court, but i wont sink to your level,

i know damn well he worked for searchlight what i am asking you for is proof that he misused anti-fascist intelligence, you obviously don't have any, do you even know tilzley?


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## trevhagl (Jun 9, 2010)

used to have a bit crack with Dave Hann on Upstarts forum, seemed a decent geezer


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## Joe Reilly (Jun 9, 2010)

Deareg said:


> searchlight were known as state assets back in the 80ies, if it took red action up until 97 to sever ties with them then shame on red action.
> 
> a spoiler for what exactly? it only named nick names and initials and as no one has ever been charged or to my knowledge even arrested on foot of anything in the book, then no harm done, and what was dave supposed to be keeping schtum about? he was found not guilty of the mugging charge and was quite happy to discuss it with anyone who asked him for details, i will ask you one last time, have you any proof for the allegations that you made about tilzleys missuse on intelligence? i can only assume that you are quite happy to continually indulge in unsubstanciated slandering of other anti fascists, i hope i am wrong in making this assumption



The RA attitude to Searchlight was an entirely pragmatic one. Nothing was taken at face value. Everything was sifted. And as GG came to realise in about 1993, much to his chagrin that the information had indeed been all one way - just not in his direction. But not all were so discerning. Hence the call for the proscription in the mid 1990's. Eventually this led to the suspension of Leeds and Huddersfield in 1997.

As for Dave Hann, he might have been more than happy to discuss the mugging charge _after_ the event. However he was not so insouciant _before_ he went to trial. 

Indeed it was just weeks before the trial that the national leadership was informed of the charges he had been under for approx 18 months. It was only when he thought he might be going to jail that he felt he had nothing to lose politically coming clean to an associate in Manchester. He had nothing to lose politically because his failure to declare his arrest and subsequent charges -was as he already knew, a sackable offence - for obvious reasons. In other words his legal guilt of innocence was actually irrelevant in that regard. As the people that mattered already knew what had really happened.


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## Fedayn (Jun 9, 2010)

Deareg said:


> the fact that no one has ever been arrested means they put no one at risk, unlike red action continuing to work with state assets, that is if your version of events is true which i find hard to believe, but don't let the facts get in the way of a good smear campaign? i have no idea where the "cunts" on libcom were as i have no idea who any of them are,



I'll introduce you to a mate of mines who's nickname-well know by people he'd rather not know-was bandied about in the book doing things you might not want repeated..... He'd be happy to repeat a simple point there was NO need for the names.


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## Deareg (Jun 9, 2010)

trevhagl said:


> used to have a bit crack with Dave Hann on Upstarts forum, seemed a decent geezer



he was


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## Joe Reilly (Jun 9, 2010)

Deareg said:


> i know damn well he worked for searchlight what i am asking you for is proof that he misused anti-fascist intelligence, you obviously don't have any, do you even know tilzley?




Tilzey used intelligence to _mislead anti-fascists _- which is why he was persona non grata in Manchester long before Hann moved there. Indeed it was Hann who brought him back into AFA circles behind the backs of people who had bounced him - the same people who had previously worked with him in the Manchester Squad incidentally.


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## Deareg (Jun 9, 2010)

Joe Reilly said:


> The RA attitude to Searchlight was an entirely pragmatic one. Nothing was taken at face value. Everything was sifted. And as GG came to realise in about 1993, much to his chagrin that the information had indeed been all one way - just not in his direction. But not all were so discerning. Hence the call for the proscription in the mid 1990's. Eventually this led to the suspension of Leeds and Huddersfield in 1997.
> 
> As for Dave Hann, he might have been more than happy to discuss the mugging charge _after_ the event. However he was not so insouciant _before_ he went to trial.
> 
> Indeed it was just weeks before the trial that the national leadership was informed of the charges he had been under for approx 18 months. It was only when he thought he might be going to jail that he felt he had nothing to lose politically coming clean to an associate in Manchester. He had nothing to lose politically because his failure to declare his arrest and subsequent charges -was as he already knew, a sackable offence - for obvious reasons. In other words his legal guilt of innocence was actually irrelevant in that regard. As the people that mattered already knew what had really happened.



joe, i remember back in the eighties you among others saying that gable was giving info on antifa activists to special branch, what the fuck is pragmatic about having such a cunt anywhere near you? how in any way could the benefits outweigh the obvious dangers? who are you or anyone else in red action or afa to put activists liberty at stake?

i spoke to dave about the mugging charge and have absolutely no doubt that he was innocent, if he with-held the fact that he had been charged from red action that is a diferent matter


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## Joe Reilly (Jun 9, 2010)

Deareg said:


> i spoke to dave about the mugging charge and have absolutely no doubt that he was innocent, if he with-held the fact that he had been charged from red action that is a diferent matter



You seem to be sort of implying you spoke to DH about the mugging charges _before_ the trial...this I doubt as he had very good reasons why he kept the fact secret. His concealment was in fact grounds for immedaite expulsion from AFA. So he kept the facts secret from AFA and RA right up until the last moment for one simple reason: he knew his story would unravel.


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## Deareg (Jun 9, 2010)

Joe Reilly said:


> You seem to be sort of implying you spoke to DH about the mugging charges _before_ the trial...this I doubt as he had very good reasons why he kept the fact secret. His concealment was in fact grounds for immedaite expulsion from AFA. So he kept the facts secret from AFA and RA right up until the last moment for one simple reason: he knew his story would unravel.



no,it was after his aquittal we spoke, i asked him outright if he had done it, he replied no and told me what happened, i believed him then and still believe his version of events, was he under any obligation to inform red action? i mean rules of membership? code of conduct? i recall plenty of other red action members being arrested for non political crimes including violence some on more than one occasion and one even grassing on his co accused, i don't remember any of them being dismissed or villified in the way dave was


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## trevhagl (Jun 9, 2010)

anyone know if this book will be like No Retreat or boring analysis/ historical bollocks?


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## Larry O'Hara (Jun 9, 2010)

Deareg said:


> i know damn well he worked for searchlight what i am asking you for is proof that he misused anti-fascist intelligence



the former indicates the latter: your refusal to concede this shows where you are coming from.


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## tbaldwin (Jun 9, 2010)

trevhagl said:


> anyone know if this book will be like No Retreat or boring analysis/ historical bollocks?



I reckon it will be a book well worth reading trev. Like a lot of people i have some criticisms of afa in the 90s. But whatever is said AFA did some great things. And its really good that this book is coming out despite all the negative comments on indymedia etc. 
I do expect it to be biased towards the people who ran ra,since er god must have been about 1988! but why not in a way. Whilst not exactly being JRs biggest fan, he was a key figure whatever way you look at it,in damaging the fascists in the uk.


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## laptop (Jun 9, 2010)

Larry O'Hara said:


> the former indicates the latter: your refusal to concede this shows where you are coming from.



And there we have the O'Hara Research Method in a nutshell: association is proof; association by association is proof...


I was once seen in a bar with Ian Paisley. Therefore I must, according to the O'HRM, be guilty of Bloody Sunday...


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## cogg (Jun 9, 2010)

laptop said:


> And there we have the O'Hara Research Method in a nutshell: association is proof; association by association is proof...
> 
> 
> I was once seen in a bar with Ian Paisley. Therefore I must, according to the O'HRM, be guilty of Bloody Sunday...



I totally agree with you that assuming guilt by association is wrong.

However, it is your writing that proclaims you a twat.


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## laptop (Jun 9, 2010)

I'm interested, really interested, to know what is and has been going on.

I've spend far too many hours over the past 35 years reading up on these allegations.

I'm annoyed because *all* I have found is association, association, association.


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## Deareg (Jun 9, 2010)

Larry O'Hara said:


> the former indicates the latter: your refusal to concede this shows where you are coming from.



alright then sherlock, where am i coming from?


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## Joe Reilly (Jun 9, 2010)

Deareg said:


> no,it was after his aquittal we spoke, i asked him outright if he had done it, he replied no and told me what happened, i believed him then and still believe his version of events, was he under any obligation to inform red action? i mean rules of membership? code of conduct? i recall plenty of other red action members being arrested for non political crimes including violence some on more than one occasion and one even grassing on his co accused, i don't remember any of them being dismissed or villified in the way dave was



It had been made a rule of _AFA_ membership. Had he been wrongly charged he would have had no reason to conceal it from RA. Indeed it would have been in his direct interest _not_ to conceal it.


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## Larry O'Hara (Jun 9, 2010)

laptop said:


> And there we have the O'Hara Research Method in a nutshell: association is proof; association by association is proof...
> ...



Actually working for Searchlight, as an operative, is rather more than association--but of course you know that already, you are just trying to muddy the waters, as usual.


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## Larry O'Hara (Jun 9, 2010)

Deareg said:


> alright then sherlock, where am i coming from?



you are somebody who is willing to allow your friendly relations with somebody count for more than who you admit they worked for--thus, your judgement is clouded.


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## Larry O'Hara (Jun 9, 2010)

laptop said:


> I'm interested, really interested, to know what is and has been going on.
> 
> I've spend far too many hours over the past 35 years reading up on these allegations.
> 
> I'm annoyed because *all* I have found is association, association, association.



35 years? That would include the Gable Meorandum of 1977 I think, where, if I remember correctly, the old crook wrote (and has never denied it)

 "I have given the names I have acquired to be checked out by the British and French security services"

How much more association do you want?  The question is rhetorical of course, because reasoned discussion is the last thing on your mind.


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## Deareg (Jun 9, 2010)

Joe Reilly said:


> It had been made a rule of _AFA_ membership. Had he been wrongly charged he would have had no reason to conceal it from RA. Indeed it would have been in his direct interest _not_ to conceal it.



can't say that i ever read the afa rulebook, so i will take your word for it, when was this rule brought in? and why did it not affect other red action members up on criminal charges?


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## Deareg (Jun 9, 2010)

Larry O'Hara said:


> you are somebody who is willing to allow your friendly relations with somebody count for more than who you admit they worked for--thus, your judgement is clouded.




no larry, i am someone who keeps an open mind, and expects people who make claims like the one made about tilzley or dave hann, or gary o shea for that matter to back up the claims with at the very least intelligent reasoning


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## laptop (Jun 9, 2010)

Larry O'Hara said:


> How much more association do you want?



No more association, thanks. 

Something about the specific question: did he pass information? Please?


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## past caring (Jun 9, 2010)

Deareg said:


> can't say that i ever read the afa rulebook, so i will take your word for it, when was this rule brought in? and why did it not affect other red action members up on criminal charges?



There was no written rule book, for obvious reasons - but the expectation that anything but passing contact with the forces of the state was to be reported to AFA branch officers was made clear to everyone when they joined. It was to me - and that expectation was reinforced periodically to everyone in branch meetings. Again, the reasons for this ought to be obvious.

I don't know about other RA members up on criminal charges (and I wouldn't discuss specifics on here, even if I knew about them) but the nature of the charges themselves would surely be one factor. A person being convicted of, say, ABH after drunken argy-bargy in a boozer descended into fisticuffs is a whole different kettle of fish to someone being convicted of mugging (whilst seeking out gays as a target due to a perception of their being a soft touch). Again, the reason why AFA and RA might deal with the two scenarios differently ought to be obvious.


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## Larry O'Hara (Jun 9, 2010)

laptop said:


> No more association, thanks.
> 
> Something about the specific question: did he pass information? Please?



If you mean Gable, as well as being deliberately obstructive, can you not read?  

If you mean the Searchlight operative, if they were not passing information to Searchlight, what do you think they might have been doing?

Both rhetorical questions in your case, because of course genuine discussion is the last thing you want, or are capable of.


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## Deareg (Jun 9, 2010)

past caring said:


> There was no written rule book, for obvious reasons - but the expectation that anything but passing contact with the forces of the state was to be reported to AFA branch officers was made clear to everyone when they joined. It was to me - and that expectation was reinforced periodically to everyone in branch meetings. Again, the reasons for this ought to be obvious.
> 
> I don't know about other RA members up on criminal charges (and I wouldn't discuss specifics on here, even if I knew about them) but the nature of the charges themselves would surely be one factor. A person being convicted of, say, ABH after drunken argy-bargy in a boozer descended into fisticuffs is a whole different kettle of fish to someone being convicted of mugging (whilst seeking out gays as a target due to a perception of their being a soft touch). Again, the reason why AFA and RA might deal with the two scenarios differently ought to be obvious.



you really are a cunt aren't you? dave was fucking aquitted, tried and aquitted, FOUND NOT GUILTY,he did not go looking for soft targets gay or otherwise, he did not mug anyone, afew red action members were arrested on various charges, some involving violence, at least one developed a bit of a habit of grassing on his partners who had managed to avoid arrest, he was never expelled from either red action or afa,

i was still involved with both afa and red action right up until shortly before dave was arrested and i do not ever recall anyone ever broaching the subject of reporting being arrested to their local branch, either you got involved years later, in which case you are talking shite about people that you have never even met, or you are just a fucking liar


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## past caring (Jun 10, 2010)

Read the post properly, you tool.

Once someone is charged and the case goes to court, there's the possibility they'll be convicted. The post was about why an organisation like AFA might view the _prospect_ of a member being convicted of one type of offence differently to being convicted of another type of offence.

Am I lying about the charges?


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## Deareg (Jun 10, 2010)

past caring said:


> Read the post properly, you tool.
> 
> Once someone is charged and the case goes to court, there's the possibility they'll be convicted. The post was about why an organisation like AFA might view the _prospect_ of a member being convicted of one type of offence differently to being convicted of another type of offence.
> 
> Am I lying about the charges?



read your own fucking post again you dishonest cunt, you said being convicted for mugging while searching out gays as soft targets, he did neither, what part of he was aquitted do you not understand diplock?

did you even know him? i asked that before and you never answered


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## Nice one (Jun 10, 2010)

trevhagl said:


> anyone know if this book will be like No Retreat or boring analysis/ historical bollocks?



like no retreat but starting from the very beginning and going to the very end.


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## past caring (Jun 10, 2010)

Deareg said:


> read your own fucking post again you dishonest cunt, you said being convicted for mugging while searching out gays as soft targets, he did neither, what part of he was aquitted do you not understand diplock?



More dissembling bollocks.



> did you even know him? i asked that before and you never answered



No. I didn't know OJ Simpson, either. I come to a view on the available evidence.


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## Deareg (Jun 10, 2010)

past caring said:


> More dissembling bollocks.
> 
> 
> 
> No. I didn't know OJ Simpson, either. I come to a view on the available evidence.



malicious gossip    you fucking spiteful cunt, you are on here talking shite and blackening the name of a dedicated anti-fascist that you now admit you have never even met,


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## Joe Reilly (Jun 10, 2010)

Deareg said:


> ... at least one developed a bit of a habit of grassing on his partners who had managed to avoid arrest, he was never expelled from either red action or afa...



As you should know making any form of statement, even if only implicating yourself would not have been condoned. A defintive yellow card offence. Making a statement implicating someone else, and your off. A straight red. Two yellows would generally also lead to a red. It follows therefore that no one would have been allowed the opportunity of developing as you allege 'a habit'. 

But assuming you believe this to be true let me take a wild stab in the dark. 

The allegedly guilty party was not someone you worked with in Manchester or the NN? 

Nor was he someone you knew personally? 

My guess is the alleged 'serial grass' was more or less assembled possibly from bit parts of real cases,  by either Dave (or Tilzey) purely to demonstrate the unfairness of his 'vilification'? 

From that you drew the conclusion that as others trangressed without sanction so his targetting had to be 'personal' as you already stated? 

It's not a unreasonable conclusion given the 'evidence' presented to you but it is also an utterly false. 

If you only think about for a minute the proposition is absurd. AFA did not, and simply could not, operate with someone like that in the ranks. It simply would not be tolerated. End of.


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## Deareg (Jun 10, 2010)

i can not believe how wide of the mark you are, you are not even shooting in the right direction, or that you claim you don't know who i am talking about, but i will give you the benefit of the doubt, i am speaking about events that happened in london when i was still a member of both organisations, not from hearsay, what about the fact that a number of red action members were arrested and two imprisoned for criminal acts but were never expelled from red action or afa? do you claim that you don't know who i am speaking of as well?

i dont even know anymore why i bothered getting involved in this shit, i stated to begin with i found the attitude towards this current book to be the same as red actions towards no retreat, including not even waiting until it was published to at least have some idea what was you were criticising, on that i am correct


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## Joe Reilly (Jun 10, 2010)

Deareg said:


> i can not believe how wide of the mark you are, you are not even shooting in the right direction, or that you claim you don't know who i am talking about, but i will give you the benefit of the doubt, i am speaking about events that happened in london when i was still a member of both organisations, not from hearsay, what about the fact that a number of red action members were arrested and two imprisoned for criminal acts but were never expelled from red action or afa? do you claim that you don't know who i am speaking of as well?
> 
> i dont even know anymore why i bothered getting involved in this shit, i stated to begin with i found the attitude towards this current book to be the same as red actions towards no retreat, including not even waiting until it was published to at least have some idea what was you were criticising, on that i am correct



Large parts of No Retreat were fictional as they had to be. Both characters were given dishonourable discharges. Naturally they were suspicions. And they proved to be well-grounded. 

Simply being jailed for 'criminal acts' would not necessarily mean automatic expulsion. It would depend on circumstances. From the early days a fair number of people went to jail. But the idea of a serial tout being kept on the books, as you allege, is a nonsense. I mean if everybody knew why would anyone tolerate it?


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## Deareg (Jun 10, 2010)

Joe Reilly said:


> Large parts of No Retreat were fictional as they had to be. Both characters were given dishonourable discharges. Naturally they were suspicions. And they proved to be well-grounded.
> 
> Simply being jailed for 'criminal acts' would not necessarily mean automatic expulsion. It would depend on circumstances. From the early days a fair number of people went to jail. But the idea of a serial tout being kept on the books, as you allege, is a nonsense. I mean if everybody knew why would anyone tolerate it?



this is getting boring joe, not only was he not expelled but another red action member who was arrested and spilled his guts to special branch then only came forward weeks if not months later was not fucking expelled, can you remember him? tell me then, what was so bad about dave that he had to be expelled despite being found not guilty?


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## Deareg (Jun 10, 2010)

Fedayn said:


> I'll introduce you to a mate of mines who's nickname-well know by people he'd rather not know-was bandied about in the book doing things you might not want repeated..... He'd be happy to repeat a simple point there was NO need for the names.



how does your mate feel about red action and afa continuing to work with gerry gable 10 years after it was revealed that he was passing info to special branch?


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## Joe Reilly (Jun 10, 2010)

Deareg said:


> how does your mate feel about red action and afa continuing to work with gerry gable 10 years after it was revealed that he was passing info to special branch?



At least try and be consistent. You are on here defending individuals who effectively worked _for_ Searchlight!


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## Deareg (Jun 10, 2010)

Joe Reilly said:


> At least try and be consistent. You are on here defending individuals who effectively worked _for_ Searchlight!



am i?  i thought i was asking for proof of tilzleys wrong doing? wasn't it you who said that that he was expelled sometime in the eighties for working with searchlight yet you continued to work with gable until searchlight was proscribed in 97, maybe it is you who should be consistent, the only person i am defending is dave hann because he cant do it himself, 

i asked you about the red action member who was arrested by special branch do you remember him?


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## Fedayn (Jun 10, 2010)

Deareg said:


> how does your mate feel about red action and afa continuing to work with gerry gable 10 years after it was revealed that he was passing info to special branch?



Nice bit of avoidance, so care to answer the question, or is it the case that you can't answer it?!


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## Deareg (Jun 10, 2010)

Fedayn said:


> Nice bit of avoidance, so care to answer the question, or is it the case that you can't answer it?!



avoidance? fed how exactly am i meant to answer? you said your mate was annoyed at being named in the book, i am hardly gonna say he is wrong or shouldn't have been , so basiclly i can't answer or at least i dont think i can, let me know how you think i should have answered


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## Joe Reilly (Jun 10, 2010)

Deareg said:


> am i?  i thought i was asking for proof of tilzleys wrong doing? wasn't it you who said that that he was expelled sometime in the eighties for working with searchlight yet you continued to work with gable until searchlight was proscribed in 97, maybe it is you who should be consistent, the only person i am defending is dave hann because he cant do it himself,
> 
> i asked you about the red action member who was arrested by special branch do you remember him?



Actually relations between RA and Searchlight broke down in 1989. There was of course occasional contact afterwards. Contact was completely broken off in 1993. The proscribing of Searchlight in the mid 1990's was to stifle an entryist operation within AFA.


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## Deareg (Jun 10, 2010)

Joe Reilly said:


> Actually relations between RA and Searchlight broke down in 1989. There was of course occasional contact afterwards. Contact was completely broken off in 1993. The proscribing of Searchlight in the mid 1990's was to stifle an entryist operation within AFA.



not that i give a fuck, but it was alright for you to work with gable but not tilzley? for my money you should be fucking ashamed at even giving gable the time of day once you had decided he was an informer,

are you gonna answer about the red action member and the branch?


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## Fedayn (Jun 10, 2010)

Deareg said:


> avoidance? fed how exactly am i meant to answer? you said your mate was annoyed at being named in the book, i am hardly gonna say he is wrong or shouldn't have been , so basiclly i can't answer or at least i dont think i can, let me know how you think i should have answered



You made out it didn't matter, they were only nicknames etc. The point being that his nickname was known by people he'd rather not know it. They knew who he was/is. No Retreat effectively 'outed' him to some people.


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## past caring (Jun 10, 2010)

Aye, but no harm done.


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## Joe Reilly (Jun 10, 2010)

Deareg said:


> not that i give a fuck, but it was alright for you to work with gable but not tilzley? for my money you should be fucking ashamed at even giving gable the time of day once you had decided he was an informer,
> 
> are you gonna answer about the red action member and the branch?



Admittedly there was at times an exceptionally high intererest in both RA and AFA by the 'spook community', all sort of people were stopped at airports, visited at their place of work (ocassionally causing them to lose their jobs) phone tapping, and visual surveillance of people they considered of interest was fairly routine. 

Pressures were brought to bear and so forth. Some dealt with it better than others. But without additional details...I couldn't possibly comment further.


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## Deareg (Jun 10, 2010)

Fedayn said:


> You made out it didn't matter, they were only nicknames etc. The point being that his nickname was known by people he'd rather not know it. They knew who he was/is. No Retreat effectively 'outed' him to some people.



right i oversteped the mark as far as your mate was concerned by saying what i did, will you pass on my sincere apologies?


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## Deareg (Jun 10, 2010)

Joe Reilly said:


> Admittedly there was at times an exceptionally high intererest in both RA and AFA by the 'spook community', all sort of people were stopped at airports, visited at their place of work (ocassionally causing them to lose their jobs) phone tapping, and visual surveillance of people they considered of interest was fairly routine.
> 
> Pressures were brought to bear and so forth. Some dealt with it better than others. But without additional details...I couldn't possibly comment further.



are you saying that you do not know the person and instance i am asking about?


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## Deareg (Jun 10, 2010)

past caring said:


> Aye, but no harm done.



did joe tell you to say that?


----------



## past caring (Jun 10, 2010)

Why not ask him?


----------



## Deareg (Jun 10, 2010)

past caring said:


> Why not ask him?



are you not allowed to answer for yourself?


----------



## Fedayn (Jun 10, 2010)

Deareg said:


> right i oversteped the mark as far as your mate was concerned by saying what i did, will you pass on my sincere apologies?



You seem determined to miss the point about naming people in that book whether by nickname or name. Oh well....


----------



## Deareg (Jun 10, 2010)

Fedayn said:


> You seem determined to miss the point about naming people in that book whether by nickname or name. Oh well....



no your mate was perfectly entitled to be annoyed if he was outed,  i should not have used the phrase that i did


----------



## past caring (Jun 10, 2010)

Deareg said:


> are you not allowed to answer for yourself?



Do you not "do" sarcasm?


----------



## Deareg (Jun 10, 2010)

past caring said:


> Do you not "do" sarcasm?




ouch

anyway, what makes you think i was being sarcastic?


----------



## past caring (Jun 10, 2010)

First rule of edit - only do it when it improves the original post.


----------



## Deareg (Jun 10, 2010)

past caring said:


> First rule of edit - only do it when it improves the original post.



i was actually being serious


----------



## past caring (Jun 10, 2010)

I didn't doubt it. Hence the response.


----------



## Deareg (Jun 10, 2010)

past caring said:


> I didn't doubt it. Hence the response.



i was being serious, you haven't got a clue about anything that happened with dave, so someone is telling you what to say, and i reckon its joe, you brown tongued wanker


----------



## past caring (Jun 10, 2010)

You really are one clueless cunt, aren't you?


----------



## Joe Reilly (Jun 10, 2010)

Deareg said:


> i was being serious, you haven't got a clue about anything that happened with dave,



Nor, as you will in time, find out, do you.


----------



## Deareg (Jun 10, 2010)

Joe Reilly said:


> Nor, as you will in time, find out, do you.



still no comment on the red action member and the branch?


----------



## Deareg (Jun 10, 2010)

past caring said:


> You really are one clueless cunt, aren't you?



i knew dave and i know tilzley, so i think that makes you the clueless cunt


----------



## Joe Reilly (Jun 10, 2010)

Deareg said:


> still no comment on the red action member and the branch?



To repeat without some additional details...


----------



## Deareg (Jun 10, 2010)

Joe Reilly said:


> To repeat without some additional details...



you are claiming you can't remember a member being arrested by special banch and spilling his guts to them and then coming forward weeks later to confess, another member being arrested for criminal activity and twice at least, grassing on his partners in crime? but you feel qualified to write a book covering something like a 10 year period,


----------



## Deareg (Jun 10, 2010)

joe, i am starting to wonder about you, you were content enough to work for over 5 years with gerry gable, someone that you yourself branded a special branch informant, therefore putting the liberty and security of both Red Action and AFA members at risk, you claim that you can not remember a member coming forward weeks if not months after he was arrested and interogated by special branch and admitting that he co-operated fully with them during his time under arrest, i will remind you that he was never expelled, neither was the member who grassed on his partners in crime, twice for definite, possibly three times, nor other members who indulged in various acts of violence which included glassing a man in a pub on tottenham court rd for no more than a minor arguement and you were there when it happened, yet you helped drive a man like dave hann out of both Red Action and AFA and you continue to this day a year after he has died, to slander the name of a man who was one of the most dedicated, hardworking and courageous anti-fascist activists that i had the honour of knowing, whose fucking agenda are you working to joe?


----------



## TopCat (Jun 11, 2010)

The comments section on Indymedia makes interesting reading apart from Larry's tangential posturing. The comments made under the monkier J Reilly seem to be a wind up by another person.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 11, 2010)

Deareg said:


> joe, i am starting to wonder about you, you were content enough to work for over 5 years with gerry gable, someone that you yourself branded a special branch informant, therefore putting the liberty and security of both Red Action and AFA members at risk, you claim that you can not remember a member coming forward weeks if not months after he was arrested and interogated by special branch and admitting that he co-operated fully with them during his time under arrest, i will remind you that he was never expelled, neither was the member who grassed on his partners in crime, twice for definite, possibly three times, nor other members who indulged in various acts of violence which included glassing a man in a pub on tottenham court rd for no more than a minor arguement and you were there when it happened, yet you helped drive a man like dave hann out of both Red Action and AFA and you continue to this day a year after he has died, to slander the name of a man who was one of the most dedicated, hardworking and courageous anti-fascist activists that i had the honour of knowing, whose fucking agenda are you working to joe?



thankfully not the same as yours


----------



## revlon (Jun 12, 2010)

The39thStep said:


> thankfully not the same as yours



hic


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 12, 2010)

revlon said:


> hic



you had to edit 'hic'?


----------



## revlon (Jun 12, 2010)

unnecessary nonsense on my part, apologies.


----------



## Demu (Jun 13, 2010)

Deareg said:


> i knew dave and i know tilzley, so i think that makes you the clueless cunt



Do you also know Dave's co-accused Mark, and ever discussed their joint trial with him. He would give you a very different take on things.


I think Mark was also a member of AFA in Manchester, but no-one ever talks about him. He was certainly present on many of the events of the time.

I spoke to Steve and Dave at length about the trial, both before and after. Never got to speak to Mark about it. Seems he just disappeared.


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Jun 13, 2010)

TopCat said:


> The comments section on Indymedia makes interesting reading apart from Larry's tangential posturing



you mean a refusal to reveal any/all of my sources on anything to anonymous scum?


----------



## TopCat (Jun 13, 2010)

Larry O'Hara said:


> you mean a refusal to reveal any/all of my sources on anything to anonymous scum?



Your a winnip on the pubes of progressive politics.


----------



## LiamO (Jun 14, 2010)

*Acquittal equals innocence?*



Deareg said:


> you really are a cunt aren't you? dave was fucking aquitted, tried and aquitted, FOUND NOT GUILTY




I'm sure Dave's troubles will be covered comprehensively in the book. 

On the subject of acquittal being the same as innocence... come, come Deareg. Are you really so naieve?

The Law is a game. We learned the rules of engagement through bitter experience and became quite good at it. Many many RA and AFA people were acquitted despite being guilty as fuck - and quite rightly so given that nearly every arrest was as a result of political direct action.

Indeed one RA member (who beat three serious charges in a row with COMPLETELY fabricated defences) was practically a 'professional' witness. He was of the 'method' acting school and anybody who knew him socially or politically who observed him in a Dock or a witness box would be hard pressed to recognise him. He used to coach others too and was damn good at it.

I often appeared as a witness myself in Defence case's that were pure, unadulterated constructions. The Plod were lying (or at least 'gilding the lily'), the Prosecutor was often lying, Prosecution witnesses (mostly Fash) were lying and so were we. 

Often our lies were more plausible. Firstly because we had a vested interest in telling good ones. Secondly, because we understood the mechanics of the 'game'. and thirdly because the Prosecution had a heavier burden of proof (beyond reasonable doubt) whereas all we were trying to do was introduce a hint of doubt - a POSSIBILITY that the Plod might have made a 'mistake'.

It is my understanding that Dave benifitted from this skill-set on this occasion. His subsequent acquittal no more makes him innocent than a 'guilty' made the Guildford Four guilty.

No doubt you will come back with some old diversionary 'outraged' bollocks, but the truth will out in the book hopefully.


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Jun 14, 2010)

TopCat said:


> Your a winnip on the pubes of progressive politics.


and you, quite evidently, are a steaming turd--troll off.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Jun 14, 2010)

Deareg said:


> i was still involved with both afa and red action right up until shortly before dave was arrested...



I fear Deareg may have fled field, which is a shame as I would like him to explain how it was he knew Hann had been arrested on charges of robbery with violence (when, bar Tilzey, no one else did) but did not satisfy his curiousity as to his hero's guilt or innocence, or so he maintains,  until _after_ the trial and _after_ his acquittal! 

Which, if he's straight, is rather odd.


----------



## sumud (Jun 14, 2010)

Two questions about the book. Does the book discuss the activities of a notorious manchester criminal and good friend of AFA/RA who turned out to be a paid informer for the state and does the book mention the serious assault on a homeless wino by three senior AFA/RA members in Londaon after a nights drinking?


----------



## Deareg (Jun 14, 2010)

Joe Reilly said:


> I fear Deareg may have fled field, which is a shame as I would like him to explain how it was he knew Hann had been arrested on charges of robbery with violence (when, bar Tilzey, no one else did) but did not satisfy his curiousity as to his hero's guilt or innocence, or so he maintains,  until _after_ the trial and _after_ his acquittal!
> 
> Which, if he's straight, is rather odd.



quite simple brainiac, i was told he had been charged, and then when i saw him again a few years later i asked him, is that too straight forward for you?

are you gonna start answering questions now, or are they beneath you?


----------



## past caring (Jun 14, 2010)

sumud said:


> Two questions about the book. Does the book discuss the activities of a notorious manchester criminal and good friend of AFA/RA who turned out to be a paid informer for the state and does the book mention the serious assault on a homeless wino by three senior AFA/RA members in Londaon after a nights drinking?



D minus - must try harder.


----------



## sumud (Jun 14, 2010)

A plus.  Spot on the button mate.


----------



## Divisive Cotton (Jun 14, 2010)

past caring said:


> D minus - must try harder.



I wouldn't even give him an E for that


----------



## past caring (Jun 14, 2010)

Don't think he'd want an E - glue possibly, but not an E.


----------



## Demu (Jun 14, 2010)

sumud said:


> Two questions about the book. Does the book discuss the activities of a notorious manchester criminal and good friend of AFA/RA who turned out to be a paid informer for the state and does the book mention the serious assault on a homeless wino by three senior AFA/RA members in Londaon after a nights drinking?



I would hope that if notorious of manchester did sterling work for AFA it will be properly accredited and not misappropriated as the work of others, as has happened in other books that have attempted to cover these events.

No doubt any other rumours regarding his paid work for the state will be substantiated by your good self.


----------



## LiamO (Jun 15, 2010)

Demu said:


> No doubt any other rumours regarding his paid work for the state will be substantiated by your good self.



Indeed. Put up or fuck up!

One thing nobody would ever have accused 'notorious' of is being backwards at coming forwards... why are you so shy Mr no-name-no-evidence?

He is no longer around to defend himself, but still you hide behind anonymous  name-calling. I respect your right to anonymity, but surely a little substantiation is required when throwing such comments about? So, like I said... put up or fuck-up!


----------



## Divisive Cotton (Jun 15, 2010)

Demu said:


> I would hope that if notorious of manchester did sterling work for AFA it will be properly accredited and not misappropriated as the work of others, as has happened in other books that have attempted to cover these events.
> 
> No doubt any other *rumours* regarding his paid work for the state will be substantiated by your good self.



It's the bit in bold which is the most telling part of your argument. It's rumoured that you are a prick - no actually that is a fact!


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 15, 2010)

sumud said:


> Two questions about the book. Does the book discuss the activities of a notorious manchester criminal and good friend of AFA/RA who turned out to be a paid informer for the state and does the book mention the serious assault on a homeless wino by three senior AFA/RA members in Londaon after a nights drinking?



Are you suggesting that the 'notorious manchester criminal' passed on information to the Police regarding AFA or Red Action? 

The lack of Police success in disrupting AFAs activities would suggest otherwise


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Jun 15, 2010)

sumud said:


> does the book mention the serious assault on a homeless wino by three senior AFA/RA members in Londaon after a nights drinking?



Hmm, interesting when someone with no posting history or identifiable features or name comes on and makes this sort of accusation with no evidence...

Still I'm sure all you muppets will help boost sales of the book further which as a supporter of Freedom, and a sympathiser of AFA and RA makes me happy.


----------



## TopCat (Jun 15, 2010)

It will be good to see in one place a time line of the efforts of some to disrupt the activities of AFA over the years. It seems that some are running scared of being named and shamed! Bring it on...


----------



## Demu (Jun 15, 2010)

Divisive Cotton said:


> It's the bit in bold which is the most telling part of your argument. It's rumoured that you are a prick - no actually that is a fact!



Problem?


----------



## LiamO (Jun 15, 2010)

*Deareg... split personality my son?*

*I have removed this post.*

it was aimed at 'drawing out' Deareg as I was curious to know his identity. 

I now know exactly who he is and although I disagree fundamentally with some of what he says, he is indeed an old friend and comrade. The tone of my post was not helpful, so I've removed it.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 15, 2010)

There's been some bins gone through there.


----------



## Deareg (Jun 15, 2010)

LiamO said:


> here is a quote from Deareg on another thread on this Forum
> 
> http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=6010805&postcount=1
> 
> ...



if you wanted to know who i was why didn't you just ask? it would have saved you a lot of time


----------



## past caring (Jun 15, 2010)

Demu said:


> Problem?



I think DC meant to quote sumud, not you. Either that or he's got the wrong end of the stick with your post.


----------



## Divisive Cotton (Jun 15, 2010)

Demu said:


> Problem?



oh yeah sorry that was meant at sumud's argument


----------



## Joe Reilly (Jun 15, 2010)

Deareg said:


> quite simple brainiac, i was told he had been charged, and then when i saw him again a few years later i asked him, is that too straight forward for you?
> 
> are you gonna start answering questions now, or are they beneath you?



So if you left AFA around the time Hann was arrested say in early 1994, and your active life in AFA (such as it was) was confined to Manchester, then the various allegations you have made about unnamed individuals in London are either entirely fictious, or as with the better, more professionally planted black propaganda story actually have some morsel of truth, that is then twisted and inflated to achieve the desired political end. But my bet is you wouldn't know the difference.

Quite simply if the time frame you outlined is accurate then you won't have no first hand knowledge of either the alleged incidents you allude to or the unnamed individuals you imply were involved. It's just no-mark, runt of the litter, poison pen style gossip. 


All you are really doing is pioneering the type of low rent Searchlight smears on Urban that were confined to Indymedia until you chipped in here.


----------



## LiamO (Jun 15, 2010)

*I have removed this post.*

it was aimed at 'drawing out' Deareg as I was curious to know his identity. 

I now know exactly who he is and although I disagree fundamentally with some of what he says, he is indeed an old friend and comrade. The tone of my post was not helpful, so I've removed it.


----------



## Deareg (Jun 15, 2010)

Joe Reilly said:


> So if you left AFA around the time Hann was arrested say in early 1994, and your active life in AFA (such as it was) was confined to Manchester, then the various allegations you have made about unnamed individuals in London are either entirely fictious, or as with the better, more professionally planted black propaganda story actually have some morsel of truth, that is then twisted and inflated to achieve the desired political end. But my bet is you wouldn't know the difference.
> 
> Quite simply if the time frame you outlined is accurate then you won't have no first hand knowledge of either the alleged incidents you allude to or the unnamed individuals you imply were involved. It's just no-mark, runt of the litter, poison pen style gossip.
> 
> ...



i had left red action earlier, though i still chipped in on the odd occasion when i could, so i have no first hand knowledge of Daves arrest, as i said i heard about him being arrested, after he had been charged, bumped into him a few years later and asked him for his side of the story, already having heard red actions side, and believed his version of what happened, i believe that you are lying about not knowing the identities of the two indivuduals i have refered to just as you are lying about Dave and about having proof of his guilt while choosing to ignore the other incidents that i have mentioned and the ones someone else posted about,


----------



## Deareg (Jun 15, 2010)

LiamO said:


> I don't actually give a fiddler's fuck who you are. I know you are either misinformed or malignant and that is quite enough for me at the mo.
> 
> I was just pointing out you seem to have at least two conflicting personalities. One passive/wimpy and one aggressive/insulting (which seems to be reserved for this thread). I think it was Ghandi who wrote that 'passive aggression is the most insidious of all'. Quite.
> 
> ...



you have known me long enough to make your own mind up about whether i am misinformed or malignant and about my personality and whether or not i am a liar so i wont bother about any of them, but please dont fucking flatter yourself by thinking for one second you wound me up, your ego is big enough as it is


----------



## LiamO (Jun 15, 2010)

Deareg said:


> you have known me long enough


*
Who are you then? *

If i've known you long enough i should be able to recognise you from your posts - but they are so inconsistent, I can't.


BTW Feel free to private message me if you'd rather take this discussion off this forum. I am always willing to talk constructively with old comrades, especially those with whom I disagree. Your posts on here don't seem exactly comradely or constructive though, so I guess that (publicly at least) it will have to be handbags drawn.


----------



## audiotech (Jun 15, 2010)

30 years of antifascist struggle in East London.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/studio31whitechapel/sets/72157622271864087/show/


----------



## Demu (Jun 15, 2010)

Deareg said:


> i had left red action earlier, though i still chipped in on the odd occasion when i could, so i have no first hand knowledge of Daves arrest, as i said i heard about him being arrested, after he had been charged, bumped into him a few years later and asked him for his side of the story, already having heard red actions side, and believed his version of what happened, i believe that you are lying about not knowing the identities of the two indivuduals i have refered to just as you are lying about Dave and about having proof of his guilt while choosing to ignore the other incidents that i have mentioned and the ones someone else posted about,



I prefer to believe the version as stated in court by the victim. It is beyond reproach.

Perhaps you should do more research, and ask yourself why would a gay man who had just been violently mugged by 2 men, fabricate evidence against Dave Hann, unless he was one of the two men.

As you know full well, if you were associating with Dave and Mark at this time, this was not the only incident of this nature.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Jun 15, 2010)

Deareg said:


> ...you are lying about Dave and about having proof of his guilt while choosing to ignore the other incidents that i have mentioned and the ones someone else posted about,



You are now endorsing an allegation from someone else (sumud) purely on the basis that it was posted on here. By ignoring it, I am in your eyes 'lying'?! Even the Spanish Inquisition would pale at that one. 

As for the rest of the rubbish you trotted out - though you have no first hand knowledge as you tacitly admitted, you are still happy to repeat them.

Given that the strategy of the Searchlight operatives on here and elsewhere is to reduce everyone to Hann's sordid level, your role in this is either useful idiot or willing dupe. 

If on reflection you fall into the 'useful idiot' camp then have a deco on stormfront where the state sponsored campaign character assasination against Griffin  and co follows a near identical pattern. The reason? They are designed and fuelled by the same architect.


----------



## laptop (Jun 15, 2010)

Joe Reilly said:


> the Searchlight operatives on here



Cough up!


----------



## Deareg (Jun 15, 2010)

Joe Reilly said:


> You are now endorsing an allegation from someone else (sumud) purely on the basis that it was posted on here. By ignoring it, I am in your eyes 'lying'?! Even the Spanish Inquisition would pale at that one.
> 
> As for the rest of the rubbish you trotted out - though you have no first hand knowledge as you tacitly admitted, you are still happy to repeat them.
> 
> ...



i am endorsing fucking no-one as i haven't a clue who he is, merely pointing out that you keep side-stepping instances/allegations of thuggery and weakness/collusion with the police by individual RA members while trying to keep the slandering Dave


this is going around in fucking circles,  was the RA member who was lifted by special branch and gave them his full co-operation, i don't judge hime because of his problems with alcohol at the time,  as he was more often called was arrested and grassed on at least 2 occasions, his "excuse" being that he was scared of the police, all 3 events took place prior to Dave being accused of the mugging, neither of them were dismissed from RA

are you going to produce any evidence of Daves wrong doing or why you say you were justified in being suspicious of him.

you keep trying to smear me with innuendo of being a stooge of some sort for searchlight when you are the one who contiued to work with gable for at LEAST 5 years after you yourself told me he was trading info with special branch, have you any intention of addressing this?


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Jun 15, 2010)

laptop said:


> Cough up!


how strange (not) that you should be asking this...


----------



## LiamO (Jun 15, 2010)

deareg

Now that you are naming names, how about your own?


*EDIT NOTE*: Deareg identified two individuals on an earlier post. I quoted his post here - before I thought better of it and removed their names. I later suggested he do the same and he has removed his original reference to them. Just explaining in case this has caused any confusion.


----------



## laptop (Jun 15, 2010)

Joe Reilly:

Who here are you saying is "a Searchlight operative"?


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Jun 15, 2010)

laptop said:


> Joe Reilly:
> 
> Who here are you saying is "a Searchlight operative"?



interesting it is you getting so touchy, isn't it?  Anything you'd care to share with us?


----------



## laptop (Jun 15, 2010)

Larry O'H is Joe Reilly?


----------



## Demu (Jun 15, 2010)

Deareg said:


> are you going to produce any evidence of Daves wrong doing or why you say you were justified in being suspicious of him.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> ...


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Jun 16, 2010)

laptop said:


> Larry O'H is Joe Reilly?



your usual trolling confusionism--you well know I have crossed swords with you on here a number of times, often related to your putting forward propositions that creatures like Gable/Lowles find very congenial.


----------



## laptop (Jun 16, 2010)

Well, if O'H isn't Joe Reilly, he's very keen to answer on Joe's behalf, or to interfere in a simple, calm, civil question to Joe.


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Jun 16, 2010)

laptop said:


> Well, if O'H isn't Joe Reilly, he's very keen to answer on Joe's behalf, or to interfere in a simple, calm, civil question to Joe.


You know full well I am not Joe O'Reilly, and that he is more than capable of answering questions on his own behalf--but you calculate you can continue your usual practice of sowing confusion by asserting so.  

I know you are not capable of legitimate debate--but am not going to be deterred by you from pointing out to third parties that you are a known confusion-peddler and recycler of Searchlight-friendly pap, something highly relevant when you ask others to 'name names'.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 16, 2010)

Seem to recall pretty much the same debate on the Red Action Board five/six  years or so ago but without so much Searchlight involvement. Red Actions statement then is entirely consistent with the statements of their position here.

http://www.redaction.org/news/oct_03.html#31_10_03


----------



## LiamO (Jun 16, 2010)

*Dear Deareg*



LiamO said:


> I know you are either misinformed or malignant



Now that I have finally twigged who you are, I can tell you unequivocally that my view is that you are misinformed. Your posts (however noble in intention), predicated as they are on misinformation, are thus fatally flawed and compromised.

Your posts might have gotten a bit personal (with at least one particularly low-blow, that I will be happy to dicuss privately but do not wish to give any credibility by referemce to it here), but then so were some of those attacking both your position and your self (including my own posts). But that’s what happens when the blood gets up isn’t it? We all fight to win, with little regard to collateral damage. And no row like a family row.

I understand that you are writing in a firm belief that you are defending the name of a comrade no longer here to defend himself. That you are willing to do so is in many ways admirable. I would expect no less of you. However, I also understand that if he was the source of your info about certain people and events, then you would naturally have a particular (skewed) view of those events. That view is misinformed, and your faith in Dave is misplaced. I trust the book will put those areas of contention firmly, and dispassionately, to bed.

I have written elsewhere that I have no personal axe to grind with Dave Hann. He was a trusted and game comrade, though never the General he portrayed himself as in ‘No Retreat’. However Dave made some really poor personal decisions, which he then compounded by his attempts to keep the lid on things, but in the end it all unraveled (incidentally, there were other ‘casualties’ apart from him. People who were torn between personal loyalty to Dave and doing the right thing politically - and got caught in the crossfire. Dave showed little concern for them.)

He struggled with the consequences of his actions and decisions, and spent the rest of his days in denial about what he did and the price he paid. He actively sought out other people who may have had cause (justified or not) for disaffection with AFA/RA, and fed his own (misplaced) sense of betrayal from those contacts.

His ill-founded (delusional even) belief that an injustice had been done to him, coupled with his complete denial of his actions (and his responsibility for them) led him into conflict with his former comrades. I think he may actually have come to convince himself (post-event and post-trial) of his ‘innocence’ of the charges he had faced. He had apparently no such illusions pre-trial. He then threw petrol onto the still glowing embers by writing a highly selective history and trying to blacken the names of his former comrades – who up until that point had pretty much maintained a dignified silence (at least publicly). 

Re: the other stuff. I would be more than happy to discuss the particulars of each and any event offline. In the meantime might I respectfully suggest that you remove the initials of those you have been successfully provoked into naming (and shaming?) above. 15-20 years on they hardly need or deserve that, do they? I have removed them from the ‘quote’ I answered your post with. You know there is an element of truth in the allegations you have made against these two individuals. But neither their actions nor the somewhat selective way you have portrayed Ra's reaction to them, justify using them (the incidents or the people) as a stick to beat RA or AFA today. 

The Searchlight stuff, the insinuations and accusations you make against Joe O’Reilly? In the cold light of day – and after the row - I am sure you can see you are barking up the wrong tree here. Ideally you could withdraw them – or at least let them lie. They serve no purpose other than to muddy the waters, and are more malignant than misinformed.

I have written this in as respectful and comradely fashion as I can. It is my own firm belief that you are an honourable and decent man, but that you are labouring under several (defining) illusions. I await your considered response.

with respect, from your old comrade
Liam


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 17, 2010)

audiotech said:


> 30 years of antifascist struggle in East London.
> 
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/studio31whitechapel/sets/72157622271864087/show/



Anti Racist Alliance's contribution to 30 years of anti fascist struggle is questionable to say the least .Same applies for Black History Month


----------



## TopCat (Jun 17, 2010)

The ARA were/are a bunch of bollocks.


----------



## jackie 68 (Jun 18, 2010)

Dearg- unfortunately life is not as simple as you want it to be. 

Dave and Tilzley were both on the one hand good blokes with good records of anti-fascist activities and on the other hand human beings with flaws. I wont even start on Tilzleys flaws, Ill restrict myself to Dave a man I greatly admired but who fucked up royaly. 
Dave had a terrible year the lowpoint of which was the mugging, he then thanks to his comrades and his co-accused beat that charge (he never by the way denied his guilt to anyone in the run up to the trial you should check this out with anyone exept Tilzley). I wont go in to other things that happened that year on here but the mugging in my view wasn't even the worst of them. You can get a flavour from his own book where in trying desperately to find an excuse to mention Glenn "solo" he talks about an incident one weekend at a pizza place I think you know well on oxford road where some fool got a kicking in a row in the queue. He chose not to talk about the attack on the editor of the Pink Fanzine by the same solo and his co-accused Mark because they thought all skinheads were dodgy!.

Shit like that was happening week in week out I think the psychologists call it going native!and I remember thinking at the time Dave was heading for the jail if this carry on continued. 
Then Dave fessed up to the mugging, held his hands up said it had happened explained the nature of the evidence the police had found on him and asked for help. Dave a mugger didn't compute FFS! We like you couldn't beleive it exept HE was telling us. He was given help locally and then by the national organisation to whom he also confessed his guilt but whom to a man you choose now to basically accuse of lying, people you knew better and longer than Dave. 

While all this was waiting to come to court he met louise and basically straightened himself out, then he had a kid with louise, the court case came up and he basically couldnt beleive his luck when the charges against him were dropped as part of a deal with mark taking a guilty plea and getting a major fine. The prosecution in my view would have dropped the charges against dave prior to the day exept the only physical evidence against the pair of them was the student nurses MU library card that was in Daves pocket when he was arrested. Mark had shoved the bottle in the guys face and done all the talking according to the victims statement. 

If Dave was innocent was Mark also innocent? was the victim lying, was the evidence planted on Dave?

After the trial Dave rewrote the whole script claiming a not guilty verdict (rather than the plea bargain involving mark) and anouncing business as usual regarding afa and Red Attitude and a witchhunt by RA. He just wouldnt let it lie, and move on be a dad etc. Sad. 

PS. Tilzley was kicked out of afa the second time for endangering Dave and another leading member telling them a fascist rally had been cancelled , protecting some source or other. Dave and another guy were bowling around the town looking for strays who didnt know it had been cancelled and walked into a big mob narrowly escaping big trouble. Unfortunately steve always put searchlight ahead of afa. 

Anyway Ive no beef with you I think you are misinformed is all, and your motives are essentially good in defending dave....


----------



## audiotech (Jun 18, 2010)

The39thStep said:


> Anti Racist Alliance's contribution to 30 years of anti fascist struggle is questionable to say the least .Same applies for Black History Month



I agree.


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## cantsin (Jun 19, 2010)

Deareg said:


> if you wanted to know who i was why didn't you just ask? it would have saved you a lot of time



.


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## cantsin (Jun 19, 2010)

the blokes a total wrong un, best left well alone imo .


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## jackie 68 (Jun 19, 2010)

cantsin said:


> the blokes a total wrong un, best left well alone imo .



Not the case, Liam makes that clear. He has a very good record in AFA.


----------



## LiamO (Jun 19, 2010)

Well said Jackie.

Unfortunately I arrived here fresh from the fuckin idiocy on that anarchist board and just waded in. But then maybe that was necessary to establish who 'Deareg' is. Now we know (and anyone who can't work it out should perhaps ask whether they have any business 'piling in').

I have heard this fella called many things over the years - most of them complimentary. 

*I have never heard anyone - ever -call him a "wrong 'un". *

Even when I have heard people criticise him - which was rare enough, and specific enough - the statement was inevitably either preceded or followed by the words 'fuckin' good lad though'... cue universal nodding of heads.

Now I disagree fundamentally about some stuff he seems to hold dear, but I would much rather converse with him civilly - as I have done since by phone - whenever that is an option. 

I know that's easy for me to say because the exchange between him and me never had time to get really nasty (a bit pissy surely , but stilll handbag stuff). I am sure Joe may feel a little less inclined to be so magnanimous, but in all my days i don't think I have met anybody better able to fight his own corner - whether politically, personally, intellectually or in a battle of wits - than Joe, so he hardly needs me huffing on his behalf.  His skill in this area is shown clearly by the way he encouraged 'Deareg' to show more of his hand til he had teased out enough to know who he was. On the down side, that made deareg's blood boil and he made some insinuations that in the cold light of day he would/should not have made.

It is unfortunate that somebody chose to register themselves as 'Sumud' and stir the pot in the middle of it all. That person (or more specifically their tactics and motives) is indeed malignant.

There is a huge difference between Deareg, who (as we now know) has been there and done it, who is on here arguing his corner (although from here on in I hope he too will keep it respectful) and 'Sumud'. This distinction is perhaps one we might all bear in mind. I know I am a contrary cunt myself (always have been... nd mouthy too), and quick to hit the insult accelerator - but I will be doing my best from this point on to think before I post.

*And before any cunt jumps in to accuse me of trying to ride two horses at once, let me add this...*

I have no doubt - never have had since 1982 -  where my ultimate political and personal allegiances lie. They lie with Red Action and with the people in and around it. Not just as an 'organisation' (and God knows there was little enough 'organisation' of any kind in the early days) but as an idea, a way of thinking, a core belief - and a bunch of decent people with whom I have a shed-load of shared political and social experience. 

And no, I don't think that is in any way a romantic/rose-tinted view and would be happy to discuss this idea with anybody who wants to.  

That does not preclude me from maintaining fraternal political, and friendly personal, relations with former comrades - and even an occasional enemy. 

That said, I have one final word for Deareg.... *the word is 'DEARG'* you dyslexic Manc twat!


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## treelover (Jun 19, 2010)

'PS. Tilzley was kicked out of afa the second time for endangering Dave and another leading member telling them a fascist rally had been cancelled , protecting some source or other. Dave and another guy were bowling around the town looking for strays who didnt know it had been cancelled and walked into a big mob narrowly escaping big trouble. Unfortunately steve always put searchlight ahead of afa.'



So, looking for violence, then what happened when the 'stray' was a young lad who was maybe on his first ever fash outing, did you beat him to a pulp?


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## LiamO (Jun 19, 2010)

treelover said:


> So, looking for violence, then what happened when the 'stray' was a young lad who was maybe on his first ever fash outing, did you beat him to a pulp?



Sometimes, yes. 

This was done with a sincere political intention. many impressionable young people were brought out by the Fash with the promise of easy pickings - battering some lefty student types. We felt it important that they were swiftly disavowed of this notion. 

More importantly, they went back to their local pubs with lumps missing off them which served both to burst the easy-pickings propaganda bubble... and to let others know that there might be a heavy price to pay should they choose to follow this path. Brutal but often effective.

having said that I remember many occasions where small numbers of fash were 'captured' by us and were not physically harmed at all. In fact i worked with one such 'victim' years later.


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## Fedayn (Jun 19, 2010)

LiamO said:


> Sometimes, yes.
> 
> This was done with a sincere political intention. many impressionable young people were brought out by the Fash with the promise of easy pickings - battering some lefty student types. We felt it important that they were swiftly disavowed of this notion.
> 
> ...



A good reply Liam.


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## treelover (Jun 19, 2010)

still in love with violence


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## JimW (Jun 19, 2010)

treelover said:


> still in love with violence



Still living in a fantasy that if you don't use it, violence will just go away.


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## Fedayn (Jun 19, 2010)

treelover said:


> still in love with violence



Can you post any evidence, even a scintilla, that anyone is in love with violence as you suggest?!


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## jackie 68 (Jun 19, 2010)

treelover said:


> 'PS. Tilzley was kicked out of afa the second time for endangering Dave and another leading member telling them a fascist rally had been cancelled , protecting some source or other. Dave and another guy were bowling around the town looking for strays who didnt know it had been cancelled and walked into a big mob narrowly escaping big trouble. Unfortunately steve always put searchlight ahead of afa.'
> 
> 
> 
> So, looking for violence, then what happened when the 'stray' was a young lad who was maybe on his first ever fash outing, did you beat him to a pulp?


It was rarely about the beating rather the humiliation, the beating rarely amounted to more than a few slaps especially young lads, we werent monsters! and we were usually in a hurry!
They had illusions of a master race vs. a few cowardly lefties, that was what it was about changing that scenario for them and as others have said for their freinds too. In that period for fascists the strategy was street violence, control of the streets, terrorising their opponents great craic for any young lads, ploughing through the "non-violent " lefties. Yes we looked for violence but we were justified and it worked.


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## LiamO (Jun 19, 2010)

treelover said:


> still in love with violence



No mate, in love with people, with life, my community and my Class (though I am quite fond of tree's too).

I lived, worked, socialised and debated with people who held reactionary and racist political views every day. Many working class people did, and do, hold such views. I have happily spent most of my life in debate, banter etc with them without resorting to violence. Ultimately people must be persuaded, not bullied, into challenging their beliefs.

But that does not mean I will let a bunch of nazi cunts walk all over me and intimidate people because of their race or their politics.

*We did not choose the tactic of 'the battle for the streets' - the Fash did*. Just as they did in Germany when they first developed the 'tavern Strategy'. If you would like to know more about this, read the original 'Beating the Fascists' book written about the 30's.

We had a duty to history and to ourselves as political activists, to rise to the challenge. *We did.*

When the fash retired from the battle - so did we.


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## Pickman's model (Jun 19, 2010)

treelover said:


> still in love with violence



you're a fucking psychopath so that comes as no surprise.


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## Joe Reilly (Jun 20, 2010)

treelover said:


> '
> 
> 
> 
> ...what happened when the 'stray' was a young lad who was maybe on his first ever fash outing, did you beat him to a pulp?



It would depend on circumstances but the general rule of thumb would be to ensure his 'first fash outing' was also his last fash outing.


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## TopCat (Jun 20, 2010)

What pissed me off personally, was that after Searchlight smeared Class War in 86, and at the enquiry then refused to offer a jot of credible evidence, your lot still worked with them. Given the huge credibility that RA rightly had, the lack of support to CW you offered confirmed in many peoples eyes that there was a semblance of truth to the Searchlight smears. You let us down.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Jun 20, 2010)

TopCat said:


> What pissed me off personally, was that after Searchlight smeared Class War in 86, and at the enquiry then refused to offer a jot of credible evidence, your lot still worked with them. Given the huge credibility that RA rightly had, the lack of support to CW you offered confirmed in many peoples eyes that there was a semblance of truth to the Searchlight smears. You let us down.



Not true. At the 86 conference RA voted against the CW suspension. When the vote went against CW, the DAM and RA walked out. Not just out of the conference but out of AFA. AFA did nothing for 6 months. After CW was cleared, RA returned. It was not until RA took the reins in 89 in opposition to Searchlight that Dam returned. CW never did.


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## LiamO (Jun 23, 2010)

Joe Reilly said:


> It would depend on circumstances but the general rule of thumb would be to ensure his 'first fash outing' was also his last fash outing.



OUCH! As incisive as ever Mr Reilly


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## cogg (Jun 23, 2010)

In light of some previous allegations some people may think AFA/RA was over run with grasses and SB touts. So I think we should set the record straight. 

I don't necessarily want go over the allegations forensically for obvious reasons however on checking I can say this.One of the individuals referred to in a earlier post developed a propensity to grass himself up and then go futher in admitting other stuff he didn't actually do. In mitigation he had previously suffered a very serious head injury which may have had debilitating effect on his judgement. Concerned for his well being and that of everyone else he was contrary to what was alleged, stood down from frontline service. Tragically for all concerned he ignored the instruction and was eventually hunted from the organisation. 

In regard to the other activist. After offering an attractive gun deal to a senior RA figure he was 'detained' within a half an hour had fessed up that he was working under instruction from SB. On being searched his handlers phone number was found in his pocket. At the time of the incident he was a supporting member having resigned his full membership of RA some time previously. Drink had made him vulnerable. But at best he was never more than a fringe player operationally.  And the attempt at entrapment was particularly clumsy. So he was let off lightly. But he was careful never allowed in RA/AFA company again.


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## Citizen66 (Aug 4, 2010)

Is this finally out yet? The guy in Freedom press reckoned the end of July.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 4, 2010)

Citizen66 said:


> Is this finally out yet? The guy in Freedom press reckoned the end of July.


 
october for the bookfair


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## miktheword (Aug 4, 2010)

They've updated their website to say October / cable Street anni.  Can concur with October - was told from another source, just as a 'waif and stray'


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## sumud (Aug 28, 2010)

I think its time that the truth coms out. see indynedia


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## The39thStep (Aug 28, 2010)

sumud said:


> I think its time that the truth coms out. see indynedia


 
The relationship between the words indymedia and truth is a complex one


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## Geri (Aug 28, 2010)

Bloody get on with it!


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## love detective (Aug 28, 2010)

slow and steady wins the race


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## Citizen66 (Aug 28, 2010)

Not in the 100m sprint it doesn't.


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## Joe Reilly (Aug 29, 2010)

sumud said:


> I think its time that the truth coms out. see indynedia


 
Well, why don't you enlighten us sumud? After all, it does appear to be your sole purpose for being on here doesn't it? In the meantime it is noticeable that your Searchlight fellow-travellers on 'indynedia' (sic) are busily sinking to a new and desperate low. Is that out of frustration that Freedom Press haven't, despite the pressure, buckled as expected, or does it signal that we are just moving on the the next phase of struggle - character assassination pure and simple? 

In short, having failed to prevent it being printed, the strategic objective will now be to pull out all the stops to prevent it being read?


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## audiotech (Aug 29, 2010)

Joe Reilly said:


> Well, why don't you enlighten us sumud? After all, it does appear to be your sole purpose for being on here doesn't it? In the meantime it is noticeable that your Searchlight fellow-travellers on 'indynedia' (sic) are busily sinking to a new and desperate low. Is that out of frustration that Freedom Press haven't, despite the pressure, buckled as expected, or does it signal that we are just moving on the the next phase of struggle - character assassination pure and simple?
> 
> In short, having failed to prevent it being printed, the strategic objective will now be to pull out all the stops to prevent it being read?



I don't often agree with you Joe, but on this I can see this being attempted. It won't work though.


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## Citizen66 (Aug 29, 2010)

To the contrary, bitching and back-biting increases its appeal.


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## LiamO (Aug 29, 2010)

I don't think we are referring to a little 'bitching and back-biting' here. It is more a concerted (and organised) campaign of personal vilification and character assassination. It is mostly stuff that would not be allowed on this Forum, where at least the moderators have at least some info as to who posters actually are.

Ironically it would appear to be being carried out by, and on behalf of, a slightly shady (but ultimately inadequate) character who vaccilates violently and repeatedly, between slagging off his nemesis from behind various nommes-de-plume on Internet boards - and licking his arse and trying to buy him pints in Manchester's finest hostelries (presumably in exchange for re-entry to the fold). I'd say he has two hopes of getting it - going to the hen-house looking for wool, methinks. 

If I am mistaken, I would politely suggest that now would be a good time for this person (who has a bit of a history for 'who... me, guv' post-event) to step forward and publicly distance himself from these odious tactics. It's never too late to grow a pair of balls and stand up to your puppetmasters.

If you'se are at this shit during the warm-up, what new and inventively low levels will you stoop to when the game actually kicks off Sumud? And remember he who stoops to conquer leaves himself open to an almighty boot in the swede (speaking purely metaphorically of course).


----------



## bignose1 (Aug 31, 2010)

Joe Reilly said:


> Large parts of No Retreat were fictional as they had to be. Both characters were given dishonourable discharges. Naturally they were suspicions. And they proved to be well-grounded.
> 
> Simply being jailed for 'criminal acts' would not necessarily mean automatic expulsion. It would depend on circumstances. From the early days a fair number of people went to jail. But the idea of a serial tout being kept on the books, as you allege, is a nonsense. I mean if everybody knew why would anyone tolerate it?



Dishonourable discharge..........get to fuck


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## Joe Reilly (Aug 31, 2010)

Would you care to expand on that point?


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## durruti02 (Sep 13, 2010)

TC this (JRs recollection) is the same as mine mate  .. however it is the case RA did work later with Searchlight which in my opinion was a mistake, of which the 1991 Kensington Library debacle showed most clearly imho 



Joe Reilly said:


> Not true. At the 86 conference RA voted against the CW suspension. When the vote went against CW, the DAM and RA walked out. Not just out of the conference but out of AFA. AFA did nothing for 6 months. After CW was cleared, RA returned. It was not until RA took the reins in 89 in opposition to Searchlight that Dam returned. CW never did.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 13, 2010)

durruti02 said:


> TC this (JRs recollection) is the same as mine mate  .. however it is the case RA did work later with Searchlight which in my opinion was a mistake, of which the 1991 Kensington Library debacle showed most clearly imho


 
I have no agenda here, but, given the fact that Searchlight refused to put forward any evidence against Class War, to ignore this fact and the assumptions that can be reasonably extrapolated from it (i.e. that Searchlight were not playing with a straight bat), it beggared belief that RA worked with Searchlight on any basis after this. I accept the assertion that information from Searchlight was ever after carefully filtered. The issue remains though that an impression was created by RA that, by working with Searchlight after the smear on Class War, the accusations made by Class war against Searchlight were not valid. 

I look forward to reading the book. is the launch going to be at the bookfair? It will be interesting if it is, to see how many of the people involved in AFA still have hair/have put on six stone etc.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Sep 13, 2010)

TopCat said:


> I have no agenda here, but, given the fact that Searchlight refused to put forward any evidence against Class War, to ignore this fact and the assumptions that can be reasonably extrapolated from it (i.e. that Searchlight were not playing with a straight bat), it beggared belief that RA worked with Searchlight on any basis after this. I accept the assertion that information from Searchlight was ever after carefully filtered. The issue remains though that an impression was created by RA that, by working with Searchlight after the smear on Class War, the accusations made by Class war against Searchlight were not valid.
> 
> I look forward to reading the book. is the launch going to be at the bookfair? It will be interesting if it is, to see how many of the people involved in AFA still have hair/have put on six stone etc.



Just some clarification: between 1985 and 1988 Red Action has just two votes on an AFA steering committee which was made up of a variety of affiliated groups regional and national: NMP, CARF, Refugee Forum etc. In other words the vote to proceed with the suspension against CW was not the only one RA delegates lost. Indeed more often than not in the later stages the voting would end up 18 -2 as a matter of routine. So after the inquiry cleared CW, the choice facing RA was the same one facing CW and the DAM: walk away or agitate for a more democratic structure from within. On a broader note, in terms of anti-fascism you can't always pick your friends, this has I think been true of anti-fascism generally. And as with a partnership in any other field, individual components take out as well as put in. In other words it is necessary to scrutinize both debit and credit aspects of the balance sheet before deciding whether the alliance is worth the candle. Indisputably anti-fascism would at various times have been weaker without the Searchlight input. At other times ...well, the indictments are well catalogued already (though there is at least one serious jaw dropper in the book). Post re-launch in 1989 Searchlight were out. That is not to say there was no collaboration on specific projects after that, but it was very much a case by case basis. All contact ceased in 1993. 

Freedom Press have made the bookfair their target - but as for the official AFA launch we should know better later in the week.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Sep 13, 2010)

TopCat said:


> I have no agenda here, but, given the fact that Searchlight refused to put forward any evidence against Class War, to ignore this fact and the assumptions that can be reasonably extrapolated from it (i.e. that Searchlight were not playing with a straight bat), it beggared belief that RA worked with Searchlight on any basis after this. I accept the assertion that information from Searchlight was ever after carefully filtered. The issue remains though that an impression was created by RA that, by working with Searchlight after the smear on Class War, the accusations made by Class war against Searchlight were not valid.
> 
> I look forward to reading the book. is the launch going to be at the bookfair? It will be interesting if it is, to see how many of the people involved in AFA still have hair/have put on six stone etc.



Just some clarification: between 1985 and 1988 Red Action has just two votes on an AFA steering committee which was made up of a variety of affiliated groups regional and national: NMP, CARF, Refugee Forum etc. In other words the vote to proceed with the suspension against CW was not the only one RA delegates lost. Indeed more often than not in the later stages the voting would end up 18 -2 as a matter of routine. So after the inquiry cleared CW, the choice facing RA was the same one facing CW and the DAM: walk away or agitate for a more democratic structure from within. On a broader note, in terms of anti-fascism you can't always pick your friends, this has I think been true of anti-fascism generally. And as with a partnership in any other field, individual components take out as well as put in. In other words it is necessary to scrutinize both debit and credit aspects of the balance sheet before deciding whether the alliance is worth the candle. Indisputably anti-fascism would at various times have been weaker without the Searchlight input. At other times ...well, the indictments are well catalogued already (though there is at least one serious jaw dropper in the book). Post re-launch in 1989 Searchlight were out. That is not to say there was no collaboration on specific projects after that, but it was very much a case by case basis. All contact ceased in 1993. 

Freedom Press have made the bookfair their target - but as for the official AFA launch we should know better later in the week.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 13, 2010)

Cheers Joe, that explains a lot.


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## Nice one (Sep 25, 2010)

okay the cover's up on the website. There'll be a shopping cart button to buy direct from the webiste pretty soonish

http://www.freedompress.org.uk/news/afa-book/beating-the-fascists-2/


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## love detective (Sep 25, 2010)

i'm sure the colours on that one are different - the last one we seen the font was more creamy (this one is more white) and the background was more maroony (that one is more red)


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Sep 25, 2010)

Is that Stewart Lee taking a running kick?


----------



## LiamO (Sep 25, 2010)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> Is that Stewart Lee taking a running kick?



Dunno but Mr M is on his knees fighting and Carl is throwing some Kung-fu shapes - great picture


----------



## TruXta (Sep 26, 2010)

oi belboid, even if you're factually in the right in this thread you come across as a right dickhead. that is all.


----------



## LiamO (Sep 26, 2010)

TruXta said:


> oi belboid, even if you're factually in the right in this thread you come across as a right dickhead. that is all.



think you might have read two threads together there and potsed on the wrong one


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## Citizen66 (Sep 26, 2010)

I'm looking forward to this. I found _No Retreat_ an enjoyable read. Is this to be the London AFA version?


----------



## trevhagl (Sep 26, 2010)

i will of course want to know if this is in readable type size , sounds interesting


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## love detective (Sep 26, 2010)

Citizen66 said:


> I'm looking forward to this. I found _No Retreat_ an enjoyable read. Is this to be the London AFA version?


 
it's certainly not a version of No Retreat!

It has a national coverage based on many contributors, covers the whole period along with a substantial pre-history and has a consistent narrative throughout. It's importance is just as much for its contemporary relevance and message as it is for the social history it tells

the type size is also readable


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## TruXta (Sep 26, 2010)

Fuck, I did post on the wrong fucking thread! Gah. Point still stands tho...


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## Voley (Sep 26, 2010)

Looking forward to reading this.


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## Citizen66 (Sep 26, 2010)

love detective said:


> it's certainly not a version of No Retreat!
> 
> It has a national coverage based on many contributors, covers the whole period along with a substantial pre-history and has a consistent narrative throughout. It's importance is just as much for its contemporary relevance and message as it is for the social history it tells
> 
> the type size is also readable


 
Well _No Retreat_ wasn't a 'history of' particularly. Enjoyable read though.


----------



## LiamO (Sep 26, 2010)

TruXta said:


> Fuck, I did post on the wrong fucking thread! Gah. Point still stands tho...



Indeed it does... do feel free to post it on the other one. There may well be some(secret) number of posters required to tell him this before his system can over-ride Mr Angry


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 26, 2010)

He's generally all right though. A union (trades) man. I guess there's a an attitude here that when someone with a low post count starts saying things that can be remotely construed as right wing they get a bit of a sweat on about it because the radar is on if you know what I mean.


----------



## love detective (Sep 26, 2010)

Citizen66 said:


> Well _No Retreat_ wasn't a 'history of' particularly.


 
Indeed, hence the point about this not being a particular 'version' of it


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Sep 26, 2010)

love detective said:


> it's certainly not a version of No Retreat!
> 
> It has a national coverage based on many contributors, covers the whole period along with a substantial pre-history and has a consistent narrative throughout. It's importance is just as much for its contemporary relevance and message as it is for the social history it tells
> 
> the type size is also readable


 
It better be good, it's taken long enough to put together!


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 26, 2010)

love detective said:


> Indeed, hence the point about this not being a particular 'version' of it


 
But both relate to AFA, so not entirely separate entities...


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## love detective (Sep 26, 2010)

both are books as well, so i see your point


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Sep 26, 2010)

Interestingly I was reading Searchlies' book 70 Years of Resitance, and I haven't found a single reference to AFA, it might as well not have existed. Not that I expected any better and I suppose it's better not to mention them than slag them off but still...


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 26, 2010)

love detective said:


> both are books as well, so i see your point


 
Both are books written by former members of AFA.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Sep 26, 2010)

Citizen66 said:


> Both are books written by former members of AFA.


 
Both covers have AFA members engaging in a full and frank discussion with some far right numpties.


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## love detective (Sep 26, 2010)

> Both are books written by former members of AFA.



both have pictures in them


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## Citizen66 (Sep 26, 2010)

One says 'look right' on the floor...


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## love detective (Sep 26, 2010)

it says look left on the back cover though!


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 26, 2010)




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## butchersapron (Sep 28, 2010)

Anyone doing any Cable Street benefits this weekend? Post them up if so...


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## Casually Red (Sep 30, 2010)

articul8 said:


> Should be interesting - certainly they were "effective" in their short term aims, combatting a certain kind of street-fighting fascist threat.  Which I guess was their main thing.  But it's a very limited sort of effectiveness that doesn't build capacity for a positive alternative.


 
i think the point you miss is that if the fascists had got to say who got to walk around the streets and who didnt - which had they not had the shit kicked out of them to the point they couldnt take it any more was a real possibility -  then your postive alternative might as well disappear up its own arse . The failure for a political alternative to manifest itself wasnt the fault of AFA . They ensured that the physical space in which to build one on the streets remained available . The failure of others to step up to the mark is their failure and not AFAs .


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## Casually Red (Sep 30, 2010)

treelover said:


> and for many a love of violence?..


 
if people just loved violence then they could join the fash , or indeed any football fiirm or gang of louts anywhere . Theres no need for anyone like that to join AFA . Its not hard to find violent situations if you want them .you could even join the cops and get paid for it if it was your thang


----------



## LiamO (Sep 30, 2010)

Casually Red said:


> if people just loved violence then they could join the fash , or indeed any football fiirm or gang of louts anywhere . Theres no need for anyone like that to join AFA . Its not hard to find violent situations if you want them .you could even join the cops and get paid for it if it was your thang



How very dare you! Coming on here with your considered and rational rebuttal of treelovers jaundiced and uninformed opinion. Why the very thought that people like you exist is offensive to him/her. 

Still at least you morons are too stupid to write a book about your exploits that will nail treelovers old bollocks as the lie it is once and for all...


----------



## Joe Reilly (Sep 30, 2010)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> Interestingly I was reading Searchlies' book 70 Years of Resitance, and I haven't found a single reference to AFA, it might as well not have existed. Not that I expected any better and I suppose it's better not to mention them than slag them off but still...



Funnily enough if the AFA book had adopted the same attitude to them - writing them out of history - Searchlight would certainly be less bothered about its imminent publication.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 1, 2010)

Joe Reilly said:


> Funnily enough if the AFA book had adopted the same attitude to them - writing them out of history - Searchlight would certainly be less bothered about its imminent publication.


 
I hope you have made the Searchlight circle nervous and paranoid.


----------



## Casually Red (Oct 1, 2010)

LiamO said:


> How very dare you! Coming on here with your considered and rational rebuttal of treelovers jaundiced and uninformed opinion. Why the very thought that people like you exist is offensive to him/her.
> 
> Still at least you morons are too stupid to write a book about your exploits that will nail treelovers old bollocks as the lie it is once and for all...



this type of musics very noisy too isnt it ? just think of the damage to the environment . Im sure it upsets snails and things . And im sure a cup of tea ( dar jeeling ?) and a nice discussion would soon put a stop to nazis also . Hitler was a fucking tree hugger too . Vegetarian , non smoking , non drinking, animal loverhanging around with loads of gay blokes..got to watch those types.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Oct 2, 2010)

TopCat said:


> I hope you have made the Searchlight circle nervous and paranoid.




That would indeed appear to be case, if recent reports from behind the scenes are anything to by. And having seemingly failed in their efforts to browbeat FP into dropping the book, character assassination directed against individual contributors will likely be the order of the day for the immediate future. Below, a flavour of things to come...




 oshea oshea oshea...have u heard

30.09.2010 12:06
it is now becoming obvious with the amount of vitriol towards hann and tilzey that red action are employing the age old fascist trick of telling a lie often enough and it becomes the truth. They have to convince themselves that what supposedly took place, if indeed it did as they state, that their part in a subsequent cover up can be forgotten. So many things will emerge after this book is out that certain red action people will suffer a similar fate as hann as news is starting to trickle out. Numerous stories of very unsavoury activities by some of the key players...beware

totos tormentor


----------



## LiamO (Oct 4, 2010)

I remember once an angry and embarrassed (supposedly undercover) Special Branch man, in the midst of being 'rescued' by a phalanx of cops with batons drawn (he had been 'attacked' by some silence, some stern looks, one or two peanuts and a stray fag-butt - and pressed his panic-button, resulting in 15 coppers bursting into a busy City-pub, much to the amazement of the vast majority of blissfully unaware punters) stuck his finger under Mr O'Shea's nose and warned gravely.... 'Live and learn Gary, live and learn'... 

I 've never been quite able to work out if he meant that he now regarded the situation as 'personal' between them, or if he was insinuating the full force of the State would now be used to avenge the peanut that had bounced off his head... but I remember the response vividly...  

a furrowing of the brow, a fore-fingered push back of the specs... then the strained silence was broken by a bemused O'Shea asking "Is that supposed to intimidate me, you dopey cunt?"





Special Branch/Searchlies threats... same response I would imagine.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 4, 2010)

Good to see Searchlight getting antsy...


----------



## Nice one (Oct 4, 2010)

obviously not going to be out for the 4th (and no nothing to do with the gossip floating about), it's just the tedium of laying it out properly - it is a massive book, proof reading and the various bit and bobs (spelling, confirmation of dates and photo captions etc).  

It's at the printers now and we should have books back for the anarchist bookfair.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 4, 2010)

Nice one said:


> obviously not going to be out for the 4th (and no nothing to do with the gossip floating about), it's just the tedium of laying it out properly - it is a massive book, proof reading and the various bit and bobs (spelling, confirmation of dates and photo captions etc).
> 
> It's at the printers now and we should have books back for the anarchist bookfair.


 

Good stuff. This will be the second book I have bought in 25 years of attending the bookfairs. The other was Morris's book about the 43 group.


----------



## audiotech (Oct 4, 2010)

TopCat said:


> Good stuff. This will be the second book I have bought in 25 years of attending the bookfairs. The other was Morris's book about the 43 group.



I'm proud to have a signed copy.

'No Retreat' I gave away to someone.


----------



## Casually Red (Oct 4, 2010)

audiotech said:


> I'm proud to have a signed copy.
> 
> 'No Retreat' I gave away to someone.


 
in true anarchist style i nicked someone eleses copy


----------



## LiamO (Oct 5, 2010)

Casually Red said:


> in true anarchist style i nicked someone eleses copy



Frankly CR , that surprises me not a jot.


----------



## love detective (Oct 5, 2010)

Nice one said:


> it's just the tedium of laying it out properly - it is a massive book, proof reading and the various bit and bobs (spelling, confirmation of dates and photo captions etc).


 
and we're still fucking doing it!


----------



## trevhagl (Oct 5, 2010)

Nice one said:


> obviously not going to be out for the 4th (and no nothing to do with the gossip floating about), it's just the tedium of laying it out properly - it is a massive book, proof reading and the various bit and bobs (spelling, confirmation of dates and photo captions etc).
> 
> It's at the printers now and we should have books back for the anarchist bookfair.


 
is the type size gonna be readable for blind cunts like me?


----------



## trevhagl (Oct 5, 2010)

TopCat said:


> Good stuff. This will be the second book I have bought in 25 years of attending the bookfairs. The other was Morris's book about the 43 group.


 
i got that off the forums favourite bookseller Black Hand. There were a few loose pages, i may join your vendetta. Not a bad read though


----------



## love detective (Oct 5, 2010)

trevhagl said:


> is the type size gonna be readable for blind cunts like me?


 
if you're that much of a blind cunt that you couldn't read my reply to you the last time you asked this question i don't think it's just the type size you need to be worrying about!


----------



## LiamO (Oct 5, 2010)

love detective said:


> if you're that much of a blind cunt that you couldn't read my reply to you the last time you asked this question i don't think it's just the type size you need to be worrying about!


 
not detecting too much love there LD


----------



## love detective (Oct 5, 2010)

i thought I was being affectionately familiar.....


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 5, 2010)

I think there must be some kind of connection between saying the word cunt and having 'detective' in your name.


----------



## LiamO (Oct 5, 2010)

Citizen66 said:


> I think there must be some kind of connection between saying the word cunt and having 'detective' in your name.


 


love-detective, this refers to a poster (who is indeed a cunt) called detective-boy who a liberally sprinkles his posts with the word 'cunt'


----------



## Proper Tidy (Oct 5, 2010)

"throw a couple of fucks into the cunt"


----------



## LiamO (Oct 5, 2010)

Proper Tidy said:


> "throw a couple of fucks into the cunt"


 
btw Has anyone ever asked db if he is Irish?


----------



## love detective (Oct 18, 2010)

Finally - in our hands!


----------



## LiamO (Oct 18, 2010)

and buyable when?


----------



## Casually Red (Oct 18, 2010)

and borrowable when ?


----------



## love detective (Oct 18, 2010)

pretty much buyable/borrowable now Liam/CR - an initial/preliminary batch arrived today from the printers, Freedom are doing their launch thing with it at the bootsale at the weekend but they'll pretty much have it for sale from their shop/site in the next day or so i would have thought

as well as freedom distributing it we'll have our own batch of stock for other distribution outlets/channels - plus for the AFA launch/social etc...


----------



## TopCat (Oct 19, 2010)

love detective said:


> pretty much buyable/borrowable now Liam/CR - an initial/preliminary batch arrived today from the printers, Freedom are doing their launch thing with it at the bootsale at the weekend but they'll pretty much have it for sale from their shop/site in the next day or so i would have thought
> 
> as well as freedom distributing it we'll have our own batch of stock for other distribution outlets/channels - plus for the AFA launch/social etc...



Excellent news. I look forward to picking up a copy on Saturday at the bookfair and sitting unsociable like reading away....


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 19, 2010)

And what kind of socialist price will it be selling at?


----------



## TopCat (Oct 19, 2010)

I love it when people expect any one expressing progressive concepts to behave here and now like we are in a Utopia.


----------



## _angel_ (Oct 19, 2010)

love detective said:


> Finally - in our hands!


 Is that your hand?


----------



## LiamO (Oct 19, 2010)

_angel_ said:


> Is that your hand?


 
Are you insinuating he is doing some 'love-detecting' with the other one?


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 19, 2010)

TopCat said:


> I love it when people expect any one expressing progressive concepts to behave here and now like we are in a Utopia.


 
How many feminists does it take to change a light bulb?

That's not funny.


----------



## LiamO (Oct 19, 2010)

Citizen66 said:


> And what kind of socialist price will it be selling at?



I hope they sell it at a good _capitalist_ price so that 

1) Freedom Press make a few bob to offset all the infantile abuse they have received for their temerity in publishing/printing it.

2) It generates enough income to provide for a post-traumatic piss-up for all us alcoholic, arrogant, aggressive, dim-witted, macho, sexist, racist, homophobic, sectarian, bullshitting, treacherous, back-stabbing, lying, fat, useless, shit-house, leather-jacketed, old, Red Action cunts (and our equally 'treacherous' DAM fellow-travellers) ... who - according to some silly-billies posing as anarchists on Indymedia - were merely holding back the 'true' anti-fascists from bringing the war to the BNP.


----------



## Nice one (Oct 19, 2010)

will be available at the bookfair for the exclusive _'just for the bookfair/i wish i was a socialist'_ price of £10. 

Won't in the shops or to buy from freedom/order from the website until after the bookfair. Proper retail price will be £15.


----------



## LiamO (Oct 19, 2010)

Can you remind me of the details of the bookfair, please... nice one... Nice One.


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 19, 2010)

I shall pop briefly to the bookfair to purchase it then and read it on the train to the north.


----------



## Nice one (Oct 19, 2010)

Saturday 23 october 11am-7pm Queen Mary university, Mile End Road, East London E1 4NS
Tube: Mile End or Stepney Green

map

http://www.anarchistbookfair.org.uk/

I'll be there most of the day on the stall, last year we were in the main foyer, right by the entrance. Look for the Freedom banner.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Oct 19, 2010)

LiamO said:


> I hope they sell it at a good capitalist price so that
> 
> 1) Freedom Press make a few bob to offset all the infantile abuse they have received for their temerity in publishing/printing it.
> 
> 2) It generates enough income to provide for a post-traumatic piss-up for all us alcoholic, arrogant, aggressive, dim-witted, macho, sexist, racist, homophobic, sectarian, bullshitting, treacherous, back-stabbing, lying, fat, useless, shit-house, leather-jacketed, old, Red Action cunts (and our equally 'treacherous' DAM fellow-travellers) ... who - according to some silly-billies posing as anarchists on Indymedia - were merely holding back the 'true' anti-fascists from bringing the war to the BNP.





Well said.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 19, 2010)

£10 sounds a good price. Would be nice to say hi to a few old RA who may remember me (if the booze has not rotted all of our brains) at the bookfair. Are any of you lot coming?


----------



## Nice one (Oct 19, 2010)

we've also got an after party at the bookshop, (pick the book up there)
two tube stops from the bookfair -
saturday 23rd
Freedom bookshop
7pm-11pm
angel alley,
84b whitechapel high street

http://www.freedompress.org.uk/news/bookshop/


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Oct 19, 2010)

TopCat said:


> £10 sounds a good price. Would be nice to say hi to a few old RA who may remember me (if the booze has not rotted all of our brains) at the bookfair. Are any of you lot coming?



It is actually, most small political publishers would price it at £15.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 19, 2010)

Nice one said:


> we've also got an after party at the bookshop, (pick the book up there)
> two tube stops from the bookfair -
> saturday 23rd
> Freedom bookshop
> ...


 
I hope you put the heating on this year.


----------



## LiamO (Oct 19, 2010)

Casually Red said:


> and borrowable when ?


 
Never. Buy it, you tight cunt!


----------



## trevhagl (Oct 19, 2010)

anyone tell me if it's readable type size?


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Oct 19, 2010)

TopCat said:


> I hope you put the heating on this year.



Freedom has heating?


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 19, 2010)

Someone answered this pages ago.


----------



## trevhagl (Oct 19, 2010)

love detective said:


> it's certainly not a version of No Retreat!
> 
> It has a national coverage based on many contributors, covers the whole period along with a substantial pre-history and has a consistent narrative throughout. It's importance is just as much for its contemporary relevance and message as it is for the social history it tells
> 
> the type size is also readable


 
ah right sounds good, will invest


----------



## LiamO (Oct 19, 2010)

trevhagl said:


> i will of course want to know if this is in readable type size , sounds interesting





love detective said:


> the type size is also readable


 


trevhagl said:


> is the type size gonna be readable for blind cunts like me?





love detective said:


> if you're that much of a blind cunt that you couldn't read my reply to you the last time you asked this question i don't think it's just the type size you need to be worrying about!





trevhagl said:


> anyone tell me if it's readable type size?




How many times are you gonna ask this question trev?


----------



## trevhagl (Oct 19, 2010)

i thought No Retreat was a great read, by not another No Retreat i hope ya don't mean it's more academic ? Not one of these books that reads like quotes from the local paper instead of from people who were there, in the thick of it?


----------



## trevhagl (Oct 19, 2010)

LiamO said:


> How many times are you gonna ask this question trev?


 
if only i spent every day on the same topic!


----------



## love detective (Oct 19, 2010)

Nice one said:


> we've also got an after party at the bookshop, (pick the book up there)
> two tube stops from the bookfair -
> saturday 23rd
> Freedom bookshop
> ...


 
Notice that we didn't get an invite to that!


----------



## TopCat (Oct 19, 2010)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> Freedom has heating?


 
Kropotkin said we should not bother fermenting a revolution unless we could offer bread to the masses. I think a bit of central heating would not go amiss to.


----------



## love detective (Oct 19, 2010)

trevhagl said:


> by not another No Retreat i hope ya don't mean it's more academic ?



i know you should never judge a book by its cover, but in this case surely the cover gives you an idea of what may be contained within its pages no? But there's more than that as well - that was the point being made


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Oct 19, 2010)

love detective said:


> Notice that we didn't get an invite to that!


 
Incompetence rather than design I imagine.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Oct 19, 2010)

TopCat said:


> Kropotkin said we should not bother fermenting a revolution unless we could offer bread to the masses. I think a bit of central heating would not go amiss to.



Bourgeios nonsense.


----------



## revlon (Oct 19, 2010)

TopCat said:


> Kropotkin said we should not bother fermenting a revolution unless we could offer bread to the masses. I think a bit of central heating would not go amiss to.


 
the heating was actually put in by kropotkin. As were the electrics and most of the fucking plumbing.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 19, 2010)

Have a bonfire or something. It was fucking freezing last year.


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 19, 2010)

Bonfire and lots of paper about.


----------



## trevhagl (Oct 19, 2010)

love detective said:


> i know you should never judge a book by its cover, but in this case surely the cover gives you an idea of what may be contained within its pages no? But there's more than that as well - that was the point being made


 
aye the cover looks interesting, i was just wondering what was so different about this book as compared to No retreat, cos No Retreat was a great read?


----------



## LiamO (Oct 19, 2010)

trevhagl said:


> aye the cover looks interesting, i was just wondering what was so different about this book as compared to No retreat, cos No Retreat was a great read?



This one contains political history, political analysis _and_ all the anecdotal fisticuffs stuff... in their proper place and order of priority.

It is a social history told by (many of) the people who helped make it - as opposed to a egotistical hoolie-Lit book with a bit of politics


----------



## trevhagl (Oct 19, 2010)

LiamO said:


> This one contains political history, political analysis _and_ all the anecdotal fisticuffs stuff... in their proper place and order of priority.
> 
> It is a social history told by (many of) the people who helped make it - as opposed to a egotistical hoolie-Lit book with a bit of politics


 
one out of 3 ain't bad i guess


----------



## LiamO (Oct 19, 2010)

trevhagl said:


> one out of 3 ain't bad i guess



So just to clarify... you would prefer it was all anecdotal mirth and violence?

I believe the authors have some incredibly lofty notion of it all being about political action... and of leaving both a social history and a handy blueprint for the next generation... should the fash take to the street again... (like the edl in your home town?)


----------



## trevhagl (Oct 19, 2010)

LiamO said:


> So just to clarify... you would prefer it was all anecdotal mirth and violence?
> 
> I believe the authors have some incredibly lofty notion of it all being about political action... and of leaving both a social history and a handy blueprint for the next generation... should the fash take to the street again... (like the edl in your home town?)


 
i've just always found books to be more entertaining if they're about real life and 2 things that bore me are history (unless it's something i don't already know) and academic writing / analysis. I very rarely see any political books these days but the last great one i read was Keith Mann because although it gave the reader a brief insight into animal rights history it was investigative and down to earth and gripped you 

i am not saying this book ISN'T like that but if a lot of it is simply discussing best way to deal with fascists, deep analysis etc it will porbably bore me.

No Retreat was the perfect mix of politics and story telling


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Oct 19, 2010)

trevhagl said:


> i've just always found books to be more entertaining if they're about real life and 2 things that bore me are history (unless it's something i don't already know) and academic writing / analysis. I very rarely see any political books these days but the last great one i read was Keith Mann because although it gave the reader a brief insight into animal rights history it was investigative and down to earth and gripped you
> 
> i am not saying this book ISN'T like that but if a lot of it is simply discussing best way to deal with fascists, deep analysis etc it will porbably bore me.
> 
> No Retreat was the perfect mix of politics and story telling


 
'Real life', 'story telling' and history aren't mutually exclusive.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## LiamO (Oct 19, 2010)

trevhagl said:


> No Retreat was the perfect mix of politics and *story telling*



Yep... storytelling á la brothers grimm... painting 'general' dave as the superhero... which was far from the truth. Or does that not matter?

Entertaining bullshit is still just that, _bullshit!_ 

Having said that I hope, and trust, this book has the balance right - and that it is indeed an entertaining read. It was certainly entertaining - and great craic - being there at the time.


----------



## audiotech (Oct 19, 2010)

> Dear Comrade,
> Ages ago you reserved a copy of “Beating the Fascists” at the advance price of £10. It has now arrived! You can pick up your copy from the shop 12-6 Monday to Saturday 12-4 Sunday. Or you can pay by card online from our website. As we can’t put up a separate button for those of you quick enough to take up the offer use the standard £15 button and we will check you off our list of reservations and give you a partial refund of £2.64 (£10 plus £2.36 postage). We will keep reservations till the end of November. Please ring the shop if you have any problems.



Cheers. 

http://www.freedompress.org.uk/public/book.oml?bookId=196.html


----------



## Nice one (Oct 19, 2010)

love detective said:


> Notice that we didn't get an invite to that!


 
course you're invited. Goes without saying.



audiotech said:


> Cheers.
> 
> http://www.freedompress.org.uk/public/book.oml?bookId=196.html


 

That shouldn't have been made public yet


----------



## audiotech (Oct 19, 2010)

Nice one said:


> That shouldn't have been made public yet



Oops!


----------



## trevhagl (Oct 20, 2010)

LiamO said:


> Yep... storytelling á la brothers grimm... painting 'general' dave as the superhero... which was far from the truth. Or does that not matter?
> 
> Entertaining bullshit is still just that, _bullshit!_
> 
> Having said that I hope, and trust, this book has the balance right - and that it is indeed an entertaining read. It was certainly entertaining - and great craic - being there at the time.


 
he seemed ok to me, reasonable sounding and critical but not secretarian...but i wasn't there so cannot say if anything was embellished


----------



## LiamO (Oct 20, 2010)

Fair enough.

i hope you will fing the book enlightening.


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 20, 2010)

I found No Retreat an entertaining read but why did Tilzey end up fucking off to join searchlies? I'll give him respect for being anti fash but it doesn't extend to him joining the state.


----------



## LiamO (Oct 20, 2010)

Citizen66 said:


> I found No Retreat an entertaining read but why did Tilzey end up fucking off to join searchlies? .



Stephen's reasons for his political journey are complex... and probably more personal than political. We all need to feel loved... and Mr Tilsey found his with Gerry Gable.

I will be interested to see how he conducts himself over the next couple of months, having failed through legal means to stop this book from being published - despite the best efforts of Carter-Ruck on his behalf.

Searchlight? Carter-Ruck? lie down with dogs...


----------



## TopCat (Oct 20, 2010)

LiamO said:


> Stephen's reasons for his political journey are complex... and probably more personal than political. We all need to feel loved... and Mr Tilsey found his with Gerry Gable.
> 
> I will be interested to see how he conducts himself over the next couple of months, having failed through legal means to stop this book from being published - despite the best efforts of Carter-Ruck on his behalf.
> 
> Searchlight? Carter-Ruck? lie down with dogs...


 
That's a bit of interesting behind the scenes news i.e. using Carter Ruck to try and stop publication. I can't imagine Tilzey having the funds for Carter Ruck somehow. Who's paying?


----------



## LiamO (Oct 20, 2010)

TopCat said:


> That's a bit of interesting behind the scenes news i.e. using Carter Ruck to try and stop publication. I can't imagine Tilzey having the funds for Carter Ruck somehow. *Who's paying?*



That's an excellent question... why who could possibly love him enough?


----------



## Random (Oct 20, 2010)

Carter-Ruck aren't necessarily expensive. A group I was involved with used them successfully. No win no fee iirc.


----------



## trevhagl (Oct 20, 2010)

LiamO said:


> Stephen's reasons for his political journey are complex... and probably more personal than political. We all need to feel loved... and Mr Tilsey found his with Gerry Gable.
> 
> I will be interested to see how he conducts himself over the next couple of months, having failed through legal means to stop this book from being published - despite the best efforts of Carter-Ruck on his behalf.
> 
> Searchlight? Carter-Ruck? lie down with dogs...


 
fuck me legal eagles!! Looks like the book really will be a good read then - nowt like someone getting uppity to make people eager to check the item in question out


----------



## LiamO (Oct 20, 2010)

Random said:


> Carter-Ruck aren't necessarily expensive. A group I was involved with used them successfully. No win no fee iirc.



Not sure about this. My understanding is that no-win no-fee only applies if Carter-Ruck are convinced they have a watertight case. That is not the case here by any leap of the imagination. They are also clear that if their client is found out telling porkies and that they have been misled, they will take them to the cleaners.

A snotty letter,  a bluffing shot across the bows - to test the resolve of the other party - is one thing. A court case is another.

They have no chance of a win here ... so if Mr Tilsey proceeds, I look forward to his public and expensive demise.


----------



## trevhagl (Oct 20, 2010)

LiamO said:


> Not sure about this. My understanding is that no-win no-fee only applies if Carter-Ruck are convinced they have a watertight case. That is not the case here by any leap of the imagination. They are also clear that if their client is found out telling porkies and that they have been misled, they will take them to the cleaners.
> 
> A snotty letter,  a bluffing shot across the bows - to test the resolve of the other party - is one thing. A court case is another.
> 
> They have no chance of a win here ... so if Mr Tilsey proceeds, I look forward to his public and expensive demise.


 
what are Searchlight so concerned about?


----------



## love detective (Oct 20, 2010)

> Not sure about this. My understanding is that no-win no-fee only applies if Carter-Ruck are convinced they have a watertight case. That is not the case here by any leap of the imagination. They are also clear that if their client is found out telling porkies and that they have been misled, they will take them to the cleaners.



Indeed, and the hamfisted and fuckwitted attempt that came our way, full of ill/mis-informed allegations was anything other than watertight - and CR must have been well aware of this as well when dealing with their 'client' and the 'evidence' presented to them by said 'client' - so on no account would they have accepted the case on a no win/no fee basis - which leaves the rather obvious answer to the question of who has pockets deep enough to pay for a stalling/spoiling tactic that has less legs than Heather Mills


----------



## LiamO (Oct 20, 2010)

*The Lull Before the Storm...*

I'm off to London for the weekend and I hope to pick up some copies of the book on Saturday. So I may well miss the first salvo's of post-publication posturing from the lovely chaps at Searchlies. 

Although it might sound a bit rich coming from somebody who has (and always had) a tendency to dive straight in, I would recommend a period of reflection before responding to provocative posts on Urban - especially from mischievous 'new' posters. 

There is a war of words to be won - and that may involve choosing when, and with whom, to engage in individual battles carefully. 

I would respectfully ask that some old comrades who have posted criticism above (and who will no doubt feel they have legitimate personal and political differences with the authors) get hold of a copy and read it before re-engaging. If there are harsh words to be had, best we are all speaking from an informed position. 

I offer these suggestions not as anybody of any great importance, just as someone who would rather focus on the positive things we all achieved together in AFA... and there were many.


----------



## love detective (Oct 20, 2010)

> I hope to pick up some copies of the book on Saturday



We've a stock as well so give us a shout if you have a 'preferred supplier'


----------



## trevhagl (Oct 20, 2010)

love detective said:


> We've a stock as well so give us a shout if you have a 'preferred supplier'


 
whats the damage including post?


----------



## cogg (Oct 21, 2010)

Ahem...


----------



## cogg (Oct 21, 2010)

love detective said:


> We've a stock as well so give us a shout if you have a 'preferred supplier'


 
Ahem...


----------



## love detective (Oct 21, 2010)

will put a copy in the post at the weekend!


----------



## past caring (Oct 21, 2010)

love detective said:


> will put a copy in the post at the weekend!



Slow boat to China? 



cogg - wanted to reply to your e-mail but my computer at home has gone belly up (that e-mail address only works through that computer). Hope the settling in is going ok + good luck with the job hunting. I'll maybe try to see if I can do something with the facebook thing - otherwise it's PMs on here. John says hello.


----------



## trevhagl (Oct 21, 2010)

cheapest place incl post to get it from anyone?


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 21, 2010)

Anarchist bookfair. Don't think they post from there though. Order from Freedom.


----------



## Sean (Oct 21, 2010)

Got mine from Freedom books today. Had to spend 3 hours marshalling quasar lasers at my kids' birthday party so haven't read much yet. Good cover though


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 22, 2010)

Sean said:


> Had to spend 3 hours marshalling quasar lasers at my kids' birthday party



Sounds like an anti-fascist paramilitary training camp to me


----------



## trevhagl (Oct 22, 2010)

Sean said:


> Got mine from Freedom books today. Had to spend 3 hours marshalling quasar lasers at my kids' birthday party so haven't read much yet. Good cover though


 
is it right what another poster said about it being readable type size then?


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 22, 2010)

Change the tune man.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Oct 22, 2010)

All I want to know is if the print will be largish and clear.


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 22, 2010)

Get off spanky's log in, trev.


----------



## love detective (Oct 22, 2010)

trev may have to wait for the audio book version, narrated by stephen fry


----------



## trevhagl (Oct 22, 2010)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> All I want to know is if the print will be largish and clear.


 
it's not a crime is it?


----------



## LiamO (Oct 22, 2010)

love detective said:


> trev may have to wait for the audio book version, narrated by stephen fry



who's doing the Geordie translation?


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Oct 22, 2010)

love detective said:


> trev may have to wait for the audio book version, narrated by stephen fry



You have to get Danny Dyer to narrate it.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Oct 22, 2010)

LiamO said:


> who's doing the Geordie translation?



Gazza obviously.


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 22, 2010)

Cheryl Cole and Gazza.


----------



## past caring (Oct 22, 2010)

The Black Hand?


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Oct 22, 2010)

Actually Ant and Dec would probably be the best...


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Oct 22, 2010)

Ross Kemp can do the gay edition.


----------



## past caring (Oct 22, 2010)

Anyway - who is around for the bookfair tomorrow? Fancy a meet up?


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Oct 22, 2010)

past caring said:


> Anyway - who is around for the bookfair tomorrow? Fancy a meet up?



I'll be on the RMT demo first then trying to get down to the bookfair for 2 or 3.


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 22, 2010)

"and a sor the skinheed and a slapped 'im roond his mush man"


----------



## past caring (Oct 22, 2010)

Citizen66 said:


> "and a sor the skinheed and a slapped 'im roond his mush man"



You got Firky to do it?


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 22, 2010)

Aye, he overtuckit!


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 22, 2010)

past caring said:


> The Black Hand?


 
Bringing out his own autonomous version


----------



## trevhagl (Oct 22, 2010)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> You have to get Danny Dyer to narrate it.


 
now THAT would be good!


----------



## Sean (Oct 22, 2010)

DaveCinzano said:


> Sounds like an anti-fascist paramilitary training camp to me


 
It was indeed. And much like my own AFA days, I spent much of it hiding in the dark somewhere near the back, hoping that someone braver would go in first.


----------



## the button (Oct 22, 2010)

past caring said:


> Anyway - who is around for the bookfair tomorrow? Fancy a meet up?



I'll most probably be there early. Get a copy of the book and fuck off before the stench gets too overpowering.


----------



## Sean (Oct 22, 2010)

Now about 100 pages in and it's a fucking great read. Like so much AFA stuff it's very well written, and often very very funny. The stuff about Alex Callinicos at Chapel Market made me titter so much that I had to read it out to my SWP workmate.


----------



## love detective (Oct 22, 2010)

'not my role in the party'!


----------



## love detective (Oct 22, 2010)

the button said:


> I'll most probably be there early. Get a copy of the book and fuck off before the stench gets too overpowering.


 
could save the bother and get a copy from me in lewisham/catford if you're around tonight?


----------



## bignose1 (Oct 22, 2010)

LiamO said:


> Stephen's reasons for his political journey are complex... and probably more personal than political. We all need to feel loved... and Mr Tilsey found his with Gerry Gable.
> 
> I will be interested to see how he conducts himself over the next couple of months, having failed through legal means to stop this book from being published - despite the best efforts of Carter-Ruck on his behalf.
> 
> Searchlight? Carter-Ruck? lie down with dogs...



News to me!!


----------



## the button (Oct 22, 2010)

love detective said:


> could save the bother and get a copy from me in lewisham/catford if you're around tonight?



Not around, sadly.

(Who are you, then? )


----------



## past caring (Oct 22, 2010)

Was wondering the same thing, though I can guess.


----------



## audiotech (Oct 22, 2010)

Page 57 - jaw drops!


----------



## past caring (Oct 22, 2010)

Go on.......


----------



## audiotech (Oct 22, 2010)

Refer to your own copy past caring.


----------



## past caring (Oct 22, 2010)

I do not have my own copy - I will be getting mine in early December. Feel free to PM.


----------



## trevhagl (Oct 22, 2010)

Sean said:


> Now about 100 pages in and it's a fucking great read. Like so much AFA stuff it's very well written, and often very very funny. The stuff about Alex Callinicos at Chapel Market made me titter so much that I had to read it out to my SWP workmate.


 
sounds good, i will definately get a copy if you can tell me if the type size is good? (I get told off for asking the forum in general and i would rather have a second opinion as it's not often i pay full price for a book!)


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 22, 2010)

trevhagl said:


> sounds good, i will definately get a copy if you can tell me if the type size is good?














and


----------



## the button (Oct 22, 2010)

It'll be fine, trev. Don't you worry.


----------



## past caring (Oct 22, 2010)

Anyway, can he not do what everyone else does and get a pair of £2.50 reading glasses out of Boots?


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 22, 2010)

Or a magnifying glass or microscope?


----------



## trevhagl (Oct 22, 2010)

past caring said:


> Anyway, can he not do what everyone else does and get a pair of £2.50 reading glasses out of Boots?


 
not good enough when you have a bad eye condition.

is there anyone here with AIDS so we can laugh at them too?


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 22, 2010)

Oh trev, how you suffered for their sins, how you suffered.


----------



## trevhagl (Oct 22, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Oh trev, how you suffered for their sins, how you suffered.


 
indeed, and here was me thinking i was asking a simple question


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 22, 2010)

> is there anyone here with AIDS so we can laugh at them too?



That is indeed a simple question.


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 22, 2010)

trevhagl said:


> indeed, and here was me thinking i was asking a simple question


 
Like fifty times. I think your memory is probably in more need of attention than your eye fwiw.


----------



## imposs1904 (Oct 22, 2010)

Back to page 57 . . . . ?


----------



## past caring (Oct 22, 2010)

I'm none the fucking wiser, chief.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 22, 2010)

There are 400 posts - trev has asked this question at least 6 times. Once every 66.666666667 posts


----------



## past caring (Oct 22, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> There are 400 posts - trev has asked this question at least 6 times. Once every 66.666666667 posts



The number of the bast.


----------



## Random (Oct 22, 2010)

trevhagl said:


> not good enough when you have a bad eye condition.
> 
> is there anyone here with AIDS so we can laugh at them too?


 
Jesus of specsavers


----------



## Captain Hurrah (Oct 22, 2010)

Always good to take up their BOGOFs.


----------



## bignose1 (Oct 22, 2010)

trevhagl said:


> what are Searchlight so concerned about?



Its Tilzey prick


----------



## Casually Red (Oct 22, 2010)

thanks to my comrade whose picking me up a copy at the weekend if hes reading this . Look forward to reading it .


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Oct 22, 2010)

I am now a proud owner of the book. Nice production, well done to everyone involved. 

Not got further than the intro yet, but it's a chunky tome and a great read so far.


----------



## audiotech (Oct 23, 2010)

imposs1904 said:


> Back to page 57 . . . . ?



Buy a copy.


----------



## imposs1904 (Oct 23, 2010)

audiotech said:


> Buy a copy.



Erm, I'm in New York.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Oct 23, 2010)

As far as I can tell Freedom Press won't ship books to Ireland. Or at least I can't make them do so via their website.


----------



## love detective (Oct 23, 2010)

we will though - give us the details


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 23, 2010)

What a stroke of good timing ! Apparantly there is to be a film regarding New Labour's battle for Barking shown next month on national TV

http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/40026/how-labour-feared-a-bnp-barking-win


----------



## cogg (Oct 23, 2010)

love detective said:


> will put a copy in the post at the weekend!


 
Hurrah!!!

Thanks.

Met up with a teenage Maosit today for a coffee. Nice bloke.


----------



## cogg (Oct 23, 2010)

past caring said:


> Slow boat to China?
> 
> 
> 
> cogg - wanted to reply to your e-mail but my computer at home has gone belly up (that e-mail address only works through that computer). Hope the settling in is going ok + good luck with the job hunting. I'll maybe try to see if I can do something with the facebook thing - otherwise it's PMs on here. John says hello.


 
L has a part-time job starting in November which will at least pay for food. I met a guy today who might be able to get me some security Guard work for evenings and weekends.


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 23, 2010)

cogg said:


> Hurrah!!!
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Met up with a teenage Maosit today for a coffee. Nice bloke.


 
ask him about the ZAP


----------



## trevhagl (Oct 23, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> There are 400 posts - trev has asked this question at least 6 times. Once every 66.666666667 posts


 
and got one answer. I'd like a second opinion. Too difficult to understand? I've already got 2 very different opinions on type size of the Steve Ignorant book!


----------



## trevhagl (Oct 23, 2010)

bignose1 said:


> Its Tilzey prick


 
Tilzey's a prick, or i am for not having a crystal ball into the insides of the book?


----------



## audiotech (Oct 23, 2010)

imposs1904 said:


> Erm, I'm in New York.


 
I would know that how?

No friends here to ship you a copy then?


----------



## imposs1904 (Oct 23, 2010)

audiotech said:


> I would know that how?
> 
> No friends here to ship you a copy then?


 
The fact that it says New York next to my location?


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 23, 2010)

Nice edit.


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 23, 2010)

Bought my copy; only read the first couple of pages thus far. Firstly I'd like to take my hat off to Freedom Press - the book feels heavy in the hand and is of supreme quality. Secondly thanks to all involved in writing it. Even the chapters are spread out in a time/event scale which means it'll be easy to refer back to a particular piece of information at a later point.

And trev, the writing is MASSIVE. And on top of that, there's mister men style illustrations accompanying each page: some of which are incredibly violent so don't leave it where children can find it.


----------



## Sue (Oct 23, 2010)

Just ordered my copy. Looking forward to reading it (and seeing the Mister Men illustrations...)


----------



## trevhagl (Oct 23, 2010)

Citizen66 said:


> Bought my copy; only read the first couple of pages thus far. Firstly I'd like to take my hat off to Freedom Press - the book feels heavy in the hand and is of supreme quality. Secondly thanks to all involved in writing it. Even the chapters are spread out in a time/event scale which means it'll be easy to refer back to a particular piece of information at a later point.
> 
> And trev, the writing is MASSIVE. And on top of that, there's mister men style illustrations accompanying each page: some of which are incredibly violent so don't leave it where children can find it.


 
at last a second answer but i can't work out if it's sarcastic or not! I think i will probably take the risk anyway, my womans gonna get it for me for Xmas Oi Oi!


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 23, 2010)

trevhagl said:


> at last a second answer but i can't work out if it's sarcastic or not! I think i will probably take the risk anyway, my womans gonna get it for me for Xmas Oi Oi!


 
It was sarcastic. Just buy the bloody thing and get 'your woman' to read a chapter before bedtime each night.


----------



## trevhagl (Oct 23, 2010)

Sue said:


> Just ordered my copy. Looking forward to reading it (and seeing the Mister Men illustrations...)


 
maybe YOU could tell me the type size - i'm not getting much sense out of C66 !


----------



## Sue (Oct 23, 2010)

trevhagl said:


> maybe YOU could tell me the type size - i'm not getting much sense out of C66 !


 


I promise to tell you when I get the book.


----------



## love detective (Oct 23, 2010)

If anyone wants to buy the book and for the money to go to the IWCA - PM me


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 23, 2010)

The writing is smaller than _No Retreat_, trev, which had approx 35 lines to a page. This has 40 lines a page for a similar-sized book. _No Retreat_ was also 280 pages long where as _Beating the Fascists_ is 400.

More words on the page, more pages in the book. A win-win situation, surely?

(sorry to keep mentioning _No Retreat_ as the bench mark just it was something trev had managed to read).


----------



## trevhagl (Oct 23, 2010)

Citizen66 said:


> The writing is smaller than _No Retreat_, trev, which had approx 35 lines to a page. This has 40 lines a page for a similar-sized book. _No Retreat_ was also 280 pages long where as _Beating the Fascists_ is 400.
> 
> More words on the page, more pages in the book. A win-win situation, surely?
> 
> (sorry to keep mentioning _No Retreat_ as the bench mark just it was something trev had managed to read).


 
well there you have it then, This is why i asked for second opinion. I had one person saying it's large type size and now you are saying the opposite!


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 23, 2010)

trevhagl said:


> well there you have it then, This is why i asked for second opinion. I had one person saying it's large type size and now you are saying the opposite!


 
One man's Red Rum is another man's Aldiniti. I've compared the books and given you an answer. Although I'm sure you'll still buy it so you can still thank me for doing that for you?


----------



## imposs1904 (Oct 23, 2010)

Citizen66 said:


> One man's Red Rum is another man's Aldiniti. I've compared the books and given you an answer. Although I'm sure you'll still buy it so you can still thank me for doing that for you?



about page 57  . . .


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 23, 2010)

I'm not getting that reference fella only it makes me think of Heinz and if only Urban was an anagram of it.


----------



## bignose1 (Oct 23, 2010)

trevhagl said:


> Tilzey's a prick, or i am for not having a crystal ball into the insides of the book?


 
the spellin Knob ead


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 23, 2010)

bignose1 said:


> the spellin Knob ead


 
Finish junior school and then have your rage, there's a nice lad.


----------



## treelover (Oct 23, 2010)

Does it fetishise violence 


or not.....


----------



## Gyre (Oct 24, 2010)

bignose1 said:


> the spellin Knob ead




If you are Tilzey Bignose1, you used to give free fish to my mates Mum on Danesmoor Road in the seventies (no pun intended).

We have loads of pictures of you all at the Albert as well.

If you're not, sorry. That means fuck all.


----------



## cogg (Oct 24, 2010)

No.


----------



## love detective (Oct 24, 2010)

treelover said:


> Does it fetishise violence
> 
> 
> or not.....


 
You can make up your own mind if/when you read it - until then the quote below hopefully gives you an idea where it's coming from

_Contrary to the image of serial brawlers, this was always politics by other means. Or, as one AFA architect put it with it a straight face: “I never had any problem with the use of political violence, it was the fighting I didn’t like.” In other words, it was the political objective, not the methodology that excited. _


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 24, 2010)

Gyre said:


> If you are Tilzey Bignose1, you used to give free fish to my mates Mum on Danesmoor Road in the seventies (no pun intended).
> 
> We have loads of pictures of you all at the Albert as well.
> 
> If you're not, sorry. That means fuck all.



Just so posters are clear, this is the Albert in Rusholme, Manchester  not the one in Brixton.Although why anyone would keep pictures of people drinling in pubs in the late 70s/mid 80s is open to question.


----------



## love detective (Oct 24, 2010)

Never underestimate Anna Key


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 24, 2010)

love detective said:


> Never underestimate Anna Key


 
That would be pictures of West Indian gentleman in pork pie hats in Weatherspoons shouting raasclaat at anyone with a laptop


----------



## love detective (Oct 24, 2010)

playing dominos


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 24, 2010)

I've never seen as many bald men reading books in the pub as i saw yesterday...


----------



## trevhagl (Oct 24, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> I've never seen as many bald men reading books in the pub as i saw yesterday...


 
i've never seen any bald men in the pub reading books, apart from me


----------



## Casually Red (Oct 24, 2010)

reading a book in a pub is just asking for trouble


----------



## trevhagl (Oct 24, 2010)

Casually Red said:


> reading a book in a pub is just asking for trouble


 
well it pprobably would be this one in some of the dodgy establishments i drink in!


----------



## LiamO (Oct 24, 2010)

Trev

the writing is quite small but the spacing is good.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Oct 24, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> I've never seen as many bald men reading books in the pub as i saw yesterday...





It was quite amusing when topcat had to prise his copy from pastcaring's hands when it was time to go...

I read bits on the train journey back tonight, first thoughts are - well written, entertaining and politically sound - excellent stuff. I did have to squint a bit because the type wasn't quite big enough though.


----------



## LiamO (Oct 24, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> I've never seen as many bald men reading books in the pub as i saw yesterday...


 
I still have a full head of hair... that must be why you missed me!

Ah well that's the Xmas pressies sorted for the grown-up's in my life.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Oct 24, 2010)

trevhagl said:


> i've never seen any bald men in the pub reading books, apart from me


 
Wordsearch compendiums don't count.


----------



## Blagsta (Oct 24, 2010)

Unfortunately I couldn't make the bookfair yesterday.  End of the month and I'm skint.  Any good gossip?  Any fights?


----------



## LiamO (Oct 24, 2010)

Blagsta said:


> Any good gossip?  Any fights?



only about 350 pages of them (lively engagements that is... not gossip).

I am also happy to report that by and large the authors have resisted the urge to settle old personal scores and indeed kept it political with Messrs Hann and Tilsey


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Oct 24, 2010)

Blagsta said:


> Unfortunately I couldn't make the bookfair yesterday.  End of the month and I'm skint.  Any good gossip?  Any fights?



I did hear that during Martin Wright and Ian Bone's annual address to the anarchist movement, a smarmy middle class american asked them their position on immigration and Martin replied that he would kick the questioner out if it was up to him 

Other than that I think lots of people did the same as me, run in grab "the book", and retire to the pub.


----------



## LiamO (Oct 24, 2010)

I was in a Rugby Club(!) in Leicester this morning watching my nephew play - I could have sold two copies in the clubhouse afterwards whilst queueing to buy a cup of tea, so I am hoping this book will break out of a narrow niche.


----------



## LiamO (Oct 24, 2010)

Blagsta said:


> Unfortunately I couldn't make the bookfair yesterday.  End of the month and I'm skint.  Any good gossip?  Any fights?


 
Sorry just realised you probably meant the bookfair not the book... airport lounges do melt the old brain a bit


----------



## Blagsta (Oct 24, 2010)

LiamO said:


> Sorry just realised you probably meant the bookfair not the book... airport lounges do melt the old brain a bit


 
I assumed you were being sarcy!


----------



## bignose1 (Oct 25, 2010)

Blagsta said:


> Unfortunately I couldn't make the bookfair yesterday.  End of the month and I'm skint.  Any good gossip?  Any fights?


 
Arnt you are a clever cunt then


----------



## love detective (Oct 25, 2010)

not half as clever as passing on a list of names to carter ruck though


----------



## Blagsta (Oct 25, 2010)

who the fuck is bignose1?


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Oct 25, 2010)

Blagsta said:


> who the fuck is bignose1?


 
Tilzey or one of his mates I would guess?


----------



## LiamO (Oct 25, 2010)

bignose1 said:


> Arnt you are a clever cunt then



As opposed to you... who is clearly anything BUT  clever 
















.... still a cunt though...


----------



## LiamO (Oct 25, 2010)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> Tilzey or one of his mates I would guess?


 


So he would seem keen to infer, but you can't really tell. I sent him a pm after his first incisive post. He did not reply. 

Would be interesting to have him confirm or deny his involvement with Carter-Ruck though.


----------



## trevhagl (Oct 25, 2010)

LiamO said:


> Trev
> 
> the writing is quite small but the spacing is good.


 
oh bugger, why do pubishers tease us!


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Oct 25, 2010)

trevhagl said:


> oh bugger, why do pubishers tease us!



Can you not buy a magnifying glass?


----------



## TopCat (Oct 25, 2010)

Well this was a good read indeed. I must apologise to all I met on Saturday, firstly for the sheer amount of Guinness I drank and secondly for ignoring them all as I read the book in the pub.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Oct 25, 2010)

TopCat said:


> Well this was a good read indeed. I must apologise to all I met on Saturday, firstly for the sheer amount of Guinness I drank and secondly for ignoring them all as I read the book in the pub.



Luckily your missus was doing the socialising for you.


----------



## bignose1 (Oct 25, 2010)

love detective said:


> not half as clever as passing on a list of names to carter ruck though



What the fuck are you on about. Pm me you prick


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Oct 25, 2010)

bignose1 said:


> What the fuck are you on about. Pm me you prick



Before anyone PMs you maybe you should offer some evidence as to your identity? Anyone can start an account on here using someone's widely known nickname.


----------



## trevhagl (Oct 25, 2010)

i am very disappointed i seem to have a challenger for Urban's most abused poster here, i hope he doesn't take abuse away from me


----------



## LiamO (Oct 25, 2010)

he's just passing through, no serious threat to you trev.


----------



## trevhagl (Oct 25, 2010)

LiamO said:


> he's just passing through, no serious threat to you trev.


 
oh that's good.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 25, 2010)

trevhagl said:


> i am very disappointed i seem to have a challenger for Urban's most abused poster here, i hope he doesn't take abuse away from me


 
don't get your hopes up you miserable worm


----------



## love detective (Oct 25, 2010)

bignose1 said:


> What the fuck are you on about. Pm me you prick


 
if you are who you claim then you'll know what i'm talking about


----------



## trevhagl (Oct 25, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


> don't get your hopes up you miserable worm


 
i'm not miserable, it brightens my day


----------



## Joe Reilly (Oct 27, 2010)

love detective said:


> if you are who you claim then you'll know what i'm talking about



Either he isn't who he claims he is, or he is but dosen't know what he's talking about. Not exclusive positions. Here is someone who claims he does know what he's talking about, though some would question that as well.

ht tp://www.vnn    forum.com/showthread.php?p=1187012


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 27, 2010)

.


----------



## Nice one (Oct 27, 2010)

good website

http://beatingthefascists.org/wordpress/

the isbn needs changing though 
ISBN: 978-1-904491-12-5


----------



## Fedayn (Oct 27, 2010)

Got the book yesterday, well into it already. So far, well written, well argued. Plenty of good points made very quickly.... Very promising.


----------



## gawkrodger (Oct 27, 2010)

picked this up on Saturday and just finished it.

Excellent book and as already suggested, just the right mix of intelligent political analysis and street recollections. 

oh, and has previously been mentioned,  at the Mossad story


----------



## LiamO (Oct 27, 2010)

Nice one said:


> good website
> 
> http://beatingthefascists.org/wordpress/
> 
> ...



Hi Nice One,

how did it go at the bookfair... did ye sell many copies of BTF?

what kind of reaction did it get? 

any old bollocks aimed at Freedom on the day (for publishing it)?


----------



## TopCat (Oct 27, 2010)

LiamO said:


> Hi Nice One,
> 
> how did it go at the bookfair... did ye sell many copies of BTF?
> 
> ...


 
There was a bit of a misunderstanding between one old comrade and people at Freedom, easily sorted. Lots of people were reading away.


----------



## LiamO (Oct 27, 2010)

TopCat said:


> There was a bit of a misunderstanding between one old comrade and people at Freedom, easily sorted. Lots of people were reading away.



That's a very diplomatic and grown up post TC... 

I have to say I found the book refreshingly short on personal stuff too...

let's hope it's catching


----------



## FreddyB (Oct 27, 2010)

Nice one said:


> good website
> 
> http://beatingthefascists.org/wordpress/
> 
> ...


 
The url has changed for that site. It's http://beatingthefascists.org


----------



## TopCat (Oct 27, 2010)

I did like many others, dip straight to the sections of the book concerning events where I was actually there. Given that the reporting of these was spot on accurate, the credibility of the rest of the book was immediately enhanced and confirmed. 

The book did raise a critique of a daft "lets go get 'em" attempt to go and confront the fash at Bressenden Place (taking people away from an AFA action in Trafalgar Square) in 1985 I think. I er, was largely responsible but the criticism was nothing new. I was quite young at the time and had my ears bent by several RA people around that time. We live and learn eh! I also _winced_ at the description of uncontrollable anarchist elements at Waterloo. (Blush).


----------



## BlackArab (Oct 27, 2010)

Just wondering where you got your copy from? If anyone knows a bookshop in Bristol selling it or a reliable online source let me know.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 27, 2010)

BlackArab said:


> Just wondering where you got your copy from? If anyone knows a bookshop in Bristol selling it or a reliable online source let me know.


 
http://www.freedompress.org.uk/news/


----------



## Nice one (Oct 28, 2010)

okay shopping cart's officially up and running

http://www.freedompress.org.uk/public/book.oml%3FbookId=196.html


----------



## LiamO (Oct 28, 2010)

Nice one said:


> okay shopping cart's officially up and running
> 
> http://www.freedompress.org.uk/public/book.oml%3FbookId=196.html



great. But you never answered my post #487


----------



## Nice one (Oct 28, 2010)

LiamO said:


> Hi Nice One,
> 
> how did it go at the bookfair... did ye sell many copies of BTF?
> 
> ...


 
went well. Around 128 copies sold on the day. Reaction was overwhelingly positive, except for two people.

"bit of a misunderstanding between one old comrade" meant he blanked me on the day, although was fully expecting a frank exchange of words in the pub afterwards. Given the fact he engineered the bulk of the snidey misinformation on the indymedia thread, i'd say things are far from sorted.

The other was more emotional blackmail - disappointed in a repected political publishers deciding to publish certain "lies" thus tainting the good name of freedom press, not to be trusted, betrayal etc.

Got an incredulous "thought you were supposed to be pacifists" and a lot of stocky middle aged blokes buying the book and immediately turning to the index - just in case 

I imagine any bollocks we get will continue in the form of internet gossip - the only thing keeping the anarchist movement going.


----------



## trevhagl (Oct 28, 2010)

Nice one said:


> went well. Around 128 copies sold on the day. Reaction was overwhelingly positive, except for two people.
> 
> "bit of a misunderstanding between one old comrade" meant he blanked me on the day, although was fully expecting a frank exchange of words in the pub afterwards. Given the fact he engineered the bulk of the snidey misinformation on the indymedia thread, i'd say things are far from sorted.
> 
> ...


 
and the left


----------



## gawkrodger (Oct 28, 2010)

I assume there's going top be an option for buying wholesale?


----------



## love detective (Oct 28, 2010)

you should come to us for that


----------



## BlackArab (Oct 28, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


> http://www.freedompress.org.uk/news/



cheers for that, I shall be putting my order in asap


----------



## Blagsta (Oct 28, 2010)

I'll be in London on Tues, at a meeting in Aldgate.  Hopefully I'll get time to pop into Freedom and buy a copy on my way back to Euston


----------



## love detective (Oct 29, 2010)

You can now buy the book online from the IWCA through the beating the fascists site

http://beatingthefascists.org/


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Oct 29, 2010)

Has it been reviewed anywhere yet?


----------



## love detective (Oct 29, 2010)

not properly/independently no

the marketing/publicity side of things (in terms of getting it out of the left milieu) has been a bit slow to be fair


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Oct 29, 2010)

love detective said:


> not properly/independently no
> 
> the marketing/publicity side of things (in terms of getting it out of the left milieu) has been a bit slow to be fair


 
I wasn't really expecting a couple of pages in a Guardian supplement! I meant more like blogs and the like.


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 30, 2010)

Just picking up on Nigel Irritables question of reviews of the book.

Ironically in the early 1980s there was an excellent book about the KPD and anti fascism called also Beating the fascists. It made grim reading at times  not just the levels of day to day violence that the KPD both inflicted  and received but in that at the back of the readers mind there was the knowledge that they knew the end of the story.

Beating the fascist-the untold history of anti fascist action has a different end , one that we can all be thankful for. However I was wondering what the SWP/Militant view of the book will be? Interwoven into the book is a very firm political position which directly confronts the orthodox Trot position expounded by both organisations and their offshoots. 

Here is Harmans review of the German book : http://www.marxists.org/archive/harman/1984/03/squad.htm  ( it is written in 1984 and starts of somewhat unpromisingly that 'the fight against fascism is not a priority for revolutionary socialist in Britain at the moment') Will the Trots is they review the book come out with a similar defence ?


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 30, 2010)

Rosenhafts Beating the Fascists? was recently  republished btw


----------



## Divisive Cotton (Oct 30, 2010)

I probably would have brought a copy if hadn't been £20...


----------



## love detective (Oct 30, 2010)

> However I was wondering what the SWP/Militant view of the book will be?



I doubt they'll even officially acknowledge its existence - easier that way


----------



## Sue (Oct 30, 2010)

About halfway through. A great read so far -- highly recommended.


----------



## frogwoman (Oct 30, 2010)

Where can I buy a copy? (sorry, haven't read the whole thread)


----------



## Sue (Oct 30, 2010)

http://beatingthefascists.org/


----------



## Fedayn (Oct 30, 2010)

love detective said:


> I doubt they'll even officially acknowledge its existence - easier that way


 
Be interesting to see what the SP (CWI) say given they had their own wee criticism of some of their alleged squaddists a few years back.


----------



## frogwoman (Oct 30, 2010)

Sue said:


> http://beatingthefascists.org/


 
Thanks


----------



## love detective (Oct 30, 2010)

Divisive Cotton said:


> I probably would have brought a copy if hadn't been £20...


 
i got a second hand copy about a year ago on amazon for £6


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Oct 30, 2010)

The39thStep said:


> Just picking up on Nigel Irritables question of reviews of the book.
> 
> Beating the fascist-the untold history of anti fascist action has a different end , one that we can all be thankful for. However I was wondering what the SWP/Militant view of the book will be? Interwoven into the book is a very firm political position which directly confronts the orthodox Trot position expounded by both organisations and their offshoots.



The SWP and Militant did not have the same political position on beating fascism, so this last bit is a little strange.

To be honest, my impression is that the book hasn't been all that widely publicised, so I suspect that most Socialist Party members, unless they happen to frequent the same internet places as people sympathetic to the RA/AFA/IWCA milieu probably aren't aware of its existence. Freedom publishing it did at least ensure that it's existence was known on the anarchist scene. There would be a reasonable chance of a review in Socialism Today if someone sent them a review copy.


----------



## love detective (Oct 30, 2010)

will be getting round to sending out review copies at some point - although the lefty press wasn't intended to be targeted



> Freedom publishing it did at least ensure that it's existence was known on the anarchist scene.



The book pretty much publicised itself on the anarchist scene purely as a result of Freedom deciding to publish it - there was little else needed, or indeed, done. And to be honest at some points during the process we kind of got the impression that, due to the 'controversial' nature of the decision, they would have preferred less, not more, publicity within anarchist circles


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Oct 30, 2010)

love detective said:


> will be getting round to sending out review copies at some point - although the lefty press wasn't intended to be targeted


 
Get your finger out! Seriously, the longer the book has been out, the less likely most places are to review it.


----------



## laptop (Oct 30, 2010)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Get your finger out! Seriously, the longer the book has been out, the less likely most places are to review it.


 
I was going to say: you've missed your chance. Certainly with any mainstream publication, for which you need to announce a publication date, and then get review copies out two months before that, if you want to stand a chance of reviews in monthly publications.


----------



## frogwoman (Oct 30, 2010)

nigel i sent you a pm, did you get it? x


----------



## Casually Red (Oct 30, 2010)

Im half way thought it or more so far and its an excellent read . The political rationale , political discussion and political opposition they got from the left is juxtaposed perfectly with the physical force stuff . Its pretty rivetting and strong on logic.


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 30, 2010)

Nigel Irritable said:


> The SWP and Militant did not have the same political position on beating fascism, so this last bit is a little strange.
> 
> To be honest, my impression is that the book hasn't been all that widely publicised, so I suspect that most Socialist Party members, unless they happen to frequent the same internet places as people sympathetic to the RA/AFA/IWCA milieu probably aren't aware of its existence. Freedom publishing it did at least ensure that it's existence was known on the anarchist scene. There would be a reasonable chance of a review in Socialism Today if someone sent them a review copy.



What in your opinion was the difference? Fed's remarks on the Away Team bring back some memories of a discussion I recall on here many moons ago



Fedayn said:


> Be interesting to see what the SP (CWI) say given they had their own wee criticism of some of their alleged squaddists a few years back.


----------



## Pre-cognition (Oct 31, 2010)

It sounds like you liberal leftists have been beating yourselves for too long about the bnp.

why don't you grow up you sickening freaks.


----------



## Divisive Cotton (Oct 31, 2010)




----------



## DrRingDing (Oct 31, 2010)

We have a live one.


----------



## LiamO (Oct 31, 2010)

Pre-cognition said:


> It sounds like you liberal leftists have been beating yourselves for too long about the bnp.
> 
> why don't you grow up you sickening freaks.



I had a quick look at this knob's extensive posting history, all six posts. All abusive, nearly all using the word 'freak'. 

Jog on, there's a good boy. I hope you find no 'biters' here


----------



## mystic pyjamas (Oct 31, 2010)

We'll have no biters here , this is a local forum for local people.


----------



## LiamO (Oct 31, 2010)

mystic pyjamas said:


> We'll have no biters here , this is a local forum for local people.



Context, context, context. Sadly lacking in your post. Prime position in mine.

Given the recent publication of this book and the consistent, hysterical nature of the campaign run against the book, it's authors and it's publishers... you will forgive us if we are a little circumspect at provocative posts from a new poster who has bounced in fists swinging.


----------



## love detective (Oct 31, 2010)

Nigel Irritable said:


> I wasn't really expecting a couple of pages in a Guardian supplement! I meant more like blogs and the like.


 
first review here - bit sniffy like (to be expected) but reasonably positive

http://london.indymedia.org.uk/articles/5845


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 31, 2010)

love detective said:


> first review here - bit sniffy like (to be expected) but reasonably positive
> 
> http://london.indymedia.org.uk/articles/5845


 
Reasonable review but what on earth would be an anarchist version ? DAM do get a mention in the book and are credited with some actions but DAM ( to their credit) were  hardly representitive of the anarchist scene.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Nov 1, 2010)

love detective said:


> first review here - bit sniffy like (to be expected) but reasonably positive
> 
> http://london.indymedia.org.uk/articles/5845



Found the reference to Graham Atkinson a bit odd. The review claims that he was tasked with winding up the squads by the SWP, as if quoting from the book, when that is not in the book. Also what makes it even more curious is that Graham Atkinson was not even  in the SWP so he couldn't be tasked by them with anything.  He was however in Searchlight. And the fallout between the Manchester Squad and Searchlight is gone into in some detail. But that is something the reviewer, for some reason, chooses to ignore?.


----------



## Casually Red (Nov 1, 2010)

Joe Reilly said:


> Found the reference to Graham Atkinson a bit odd. The review claims that he was tasked with winding up the squads by the SWP, as if quoting from the book, when that is not in the book. Also what makes it even more curious is that Graham Atkinson was not even  in the SWP so he couldn't be tasked by them with anything.  He was however in Searchlight. And the fallout between the Manchester Squad and Searchlight is gone into in some detail. But that is something the reviewer, for some reason, chooses to ignore?.



deliberate confusion ?


----------



## love detective (Nov 1, 2010)

Joe Reilly said:


> Found the reference to Graham Atkinson a bit odd. The review claims that he was tasked with winding up the squads by the SWP, as if quoting from the book, when that is not in the book. Also what makes it even more curious is that Graham Atkinson was not even  in the SWP so he couldn't be tasked by them with anything.  He was however in Searchlight. And the fallout between the Manchester Squad and Searchlight is gone into in some detail. But that is something the reviewer, for some reason, chooses to ignore?.


 
the attributing of the VNN quote to stormfront shows a lack of attention to detail as well

i wonder if the reviewer will take his own advice and write their own version?


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 1, 2010)

love detective said:


> the attributing of the VNN quote to stormfront shows a lack of attention to detail as well



I thought it rang bells earlier to that link you provided as well.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Nov 1, 2010)

love detective said:


> i wonder if the reviewer will take his own advice and write their own version?



Exactly, if you want an "anarchist" version write one, if you want a Newcastle version, write that.


----------



## The39thStep (Nov 1, 2010)

Joe Reilly said:


> Found the reference to Graham Atkinson a bit odd. The review claims that he was tasked with winding up the squads by the SWP, as if quoting from the book, when that is not in the book. Also what makes it even more curious is that Graham Atkinson was not even  in the SWP so he couldn't be tasked by them with anything.  He was however in Searchlight. And the fallout between the Manchester Squad and Searchlight is gone into in some detail. But that is something the reviewer, for some reason, chooses to ignore?.



Wasn't Strouthous involved in both North West London and Manchester in ensuring that members towed the line on squaddism. I can remember Andy 'the animal' Zabrowski's conversion and promotion to district full timer but I seem to recall that the poisoned dwarf played a witchunters role in the SWP.


----------



## The39thStep (Nov 1, 2010)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> Exactly, if you want an "anarchist" version write one, if you want a Newcastle version, write that.



Still waiting for the definitive version from Workers Power


----------



## LiamO (Nov 1, 2010)

The39thStep said:


> Still waiting for the definitive version from Workers Power



Nah. It's 'The Leninist' one that will be definitive - what a bunch of knobs.

"I have to warn you.... I'm a black belt" .... slap... well now you've got a black eye to go with it.


----------



## The39thStep (Nov 2, 2010)

Just read the Workers power /re launch of the ANL part 2 bit. Was in Manchester at the time and working for the Council. there were two Workers power members that we knew who having been extremely marginal and unconfident suddenly perked up when they were allowed to hang around Manchester AFA. I remember after a union meeting speaking to Tilzey and these two WP members standing next to him . Normally WP would have argued their point and then when told to F-Off would promptly if reluctantly F-Offed but now they thought they were equals. Over the months they started buying more fashionable clothing and began to develop fake manc accents, one became a Man Utd supporter.

There came a point when they were handing out leaflets to SWP members which i am sure was an AFA leaflet asking SWP and others to join AFA. Manchester AFA held a meeting at the Town Hall attended by I would think about 300-350  with Ray Hill speaking and Jim from London AFA. I was still in the SWP and we had seriously underestimated what we assumed to be our natural periphery's concern about the fash and were surprised at the turn out. A number of speakers from the floor called for a new Anti Nazi league ( two of them ex SWP members) . Workers power made a contribution from the floor ( after making out that they had been involved in some mysterious business which now gave them the authority to speak as experienced antifascist) along the lines that revolutionary socialists were the best anti fascists . To which both Ray hill and Jim replied from the platform that this wasn't necessarily the case and Jim said that the best anti fascist were the one who put their own politics second and smashing the fash first. Workers Power were suitably chastened and not invited to the post meeting drink in the pub by AFA.

To weeks later and the ANL mark 2 was launched and the SWP went on a recruitment drive , about sis weeks later Workers power were now in the ANL arguing that revolutionary socialists were the best anti fascists.


----------



## cogg (Nov 2, 2010)

The39thStep said:


> Just read the Workers power /re launch of the ANL part 2 bit. Was in Manchester at the time and working for the Council. there were two Workers power members that we knew who having been extremely marginal and unconfident suddenly perked up when they were allowed to hang around Manchester AFA. I remember after a union meeting speaking to Tilzey and these two WP members standing next to him . Normally WP would have argued their point and then when told to F-Off would promptly if reluctantly F-Offed but now they thought they were equals. Over the months they started buying more fashionable clothing and began to develop fake manc accents, one became a Man Utd supporter.
> 
> There came a point when they were handing out leaflets to SWP members which i am sure was an AFA leaflet asking SWP and others to join AFA. Manchester AFA held a meeting at the Town Hall attended by I would think about 300-350  with Ray Hill speaking and Jim from London AFA. I was still in the SWP and we had seriously underestimated what we assumed to be our natural periphery's concern about the fash and were surprised at the turn out. A number of speakers from the floor called for a new Anti Nazi league ( two of them ex SWP members) . Workers power made a contribution from the floor ( after making out that they had been involved in some mysterious business which now gave them the authority to speak as experienced antifascist) along the lines that revolutionary socialists were the best anti fascists . To which both Ray hill and Jim replied from the platform that this wasn't necessarily the case and Jim said that the best anti fascist were the one who put their own politics second and smashing the fash first. Workers Power were suitably chastened and not invited to the post meeting drink in the pub by AFA.
> 
> To weeks later and the ANL mark 2 was launched and the SWP went on a recruitment drive , about sis weeks later Workers power were now in the ANL arguing that revolutionary socialists were the best anti fascists.


 
I remember that, not their finest hour but what was? When they split?


----------



## love detective (Nov 2, 2010)

their economic predictions?


----------



## audiotech (Nov 2, 2010)

The main reason I left the SWP around 1990 was it's refusal to take anti-fascism seriously. All they did was malign their critics with character assassination and in one meeting, with a CC member, referring to militant anti-fascists as "nutters". Politically bereft.


----------



## Casually Red (Nov 2, 2010)

The39thStep said:


> Over the months they started buying more fashionable clothing and began to develop fake manc accents, one became a Man Utd supporter.


----------



## The39thStep (Nov 2, 2010)

cogg said:


> I remember that, not their finest hour but what was? When they split?


 
1. The pre revolutionary situation analysis 2. The International Brigade to iraq 3. Cockers calibrated scale of ration btween size and insignificance of revolutionary groups 4, Johnny Favourites  expulsion from the Revo boards


----------



## love detective (Nov 2, 2010)

text dumping


----------



## The39thStep (Nov 2, 2010)

love detective said:


> text dumping


 
Rice pudding man and the route map to class consciousness
How anti racists should shun Ali G
The exposure of the Stop The war Coalition as a reformist front because it didn't call for the war to be stopped NOW.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Nov 3, 2010)

Cockers is now a leading light in the Unison United Left.


----------



## past caring (Nov 3, 2010)

God help 'em.


----------



## Fedayn (Nov 3, 2010)

past caring said:


> God help 'em.


 
Why would they need God when they have Cockers?!


----------



## Divisive Cotton (Nov 3, 2010)

I think the support for the Jihadists in Iraq has to be their pinnacle of looniness, and all the more so due to the ridicule they received on here and how quickly they cooled on the idea


----------



## Random (Nov 3, 2010)

Victory to the resistance was the line of the SWP and of other lefties, though, so I don't see that WP can be singled out on that loony tune


----------



## Sean (Nov 3, 2010)

audiotech said:


> referring to militant anti-fascists as "nutters"



They were right in some cases, but at least they were our nutters.


----------



## audiotech (Nov 3, 2010)

Sean said:


> They were right in some cases, but at least they were our nutters.



That may be,  but the local SWP branch here never showed any moral repugnance in telephoning some "nutters" when the going got tough.


----------



## frogwoman (Nov 3, 2010)

audiotech i always thought you were still a swappie based on some of the things you've said in the past on here  i obviously got that wrong tho, so sorry! x


----------



## Blagsta (Nov 3, 2010)

I got my copy yesterday, it's certainly very readable so far.


----------



## audiotech (Nov 3, 2010)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> Cockers is now a leading light in the Unison United Left.



FWIW, I always found his posts here well written and thought out.


----------



## bignose1 (Nov 3, 2010)

Gone


----------



## LiamO (Nov 3, 2010)

bignose1 said:


> Its been mooted in the book that Denis Clifford should have led the Manchester squad. Well he would have if he'd been more reliable. He got a bad rep for not making events due to either being hungover or just too lazy. Its clever to say that the Rocdale 8 lads shouldnt have gone up there but iif theyd have waited for Clifford to turn up theyd still be sat there now. Its great hindsight isnt it. You can call Tilzey many things but he was never a coward.(Harrogate) *Your source is fuddled*...*too much you know what*. Loyalty to Manchester was what was important and most of the twats posting about him were either from outside or cleared off to London. You know fuck all about the place.



Your post is somewhat fuddled too. Would you care to expand on some of your points. If you have things of interest you wish to share, I for one would be very interested to read them. But at the moment your post reads as very confused.

_"too much you know what"_ - no. I don't know what. Please enlighten me.

For the record the book states quite clearly that JP was the 'leader' of the Squad.

By your refering to Tilz in the third person can we assume you are not Steve or indeed claiming to be him? (so why the strange username?) 
And yet you still claim to have the 'inside' track all the way back to the original 'Squad' days ... interesting.

I dare say others will be along very shortly with some specific questions. Until then could you expand on the points you have half-raised above?


----------



## past caring (Nov 3, 2010)

LiamO said:


> By your refering to Tilz in the third person can we assume you are not Steve or indeed claiming to be him?



After reading No Retreat, I can well imagine Tilzey referring to himself in the third person. Just the way he comes across in the book, like.....


----------



## The39thStep (Nov 3, 2010)

audiotech said:


> FWIW, I always found his posts here well written and thought out.


 
Bananas. 

Even you should be able to see that despite his organisation being expelled from the SWp that their audience is essentially the SWP and their periphery.


----------



## audiotech (Nov 4, 2010)

The39thStep said:


> Bananas.
> 
> Even you should be able to see that despite his organisation being expelled from the SWp that their audience is essentially the SWP and their periphery.



One banana, two bananas, I still found CR's posts as stated.


----------



## The39thStep (Nov 4, 2010)

audiotech said:


> One banana, two bananas, I still found CR's posts as stated.


 
Banana split?


----------



## The39thStep (Nov 4, 2010)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> Cockers is now a leading light in the Unison United Left.


 
Thank heavens that for once we have someone who won't hold the working class back


----------



## cogg (Nov 4, 2010)

bignose1 said:


> Its been mooted in the book that Denis Clifford should have led the Manchester squad. Well he would have if he'd been more reliable. He got a bad rep for not making events due to either being hungover or just too lazy. Its clever to say that the Rocdale 8 lads shouldnt have gone up there but iif theyd have waited for Clifford to turn up theyd still be sat there now. Its great hindsight isnt it. You can call Tilzey many things but he was never a coward.(Harrogate) Your source is fuddled...too much you know what. Loyalty to Manchester was what was important and most of the twats posting about him were either from outside or cleared off to London. You know fuck all about the place.


You must feel good posting up someone's real name whilst keeping your own anonymity and then smearing the same person.


----------



## bignose1 (Nov 4, 2010)

cogg said:


> You must feel good posting up someone's real name whilst keeping your own anonymity and then smearing the same person.



So why do you post using a sue do nim....tosser


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Nov 4, 2010)

bignose1 said:


> So why do you post using a sue do nim....tosser


 
Has Cogg used anybody's real name? If they had then you might have a point; as it is, your 'tosser post' just makes you look a bit foolish.

Louis MacNeice


----------



## LiamO (Nov 4, 2010)

bignose1 said:


> So why do you post using a sue do nim....tosser


 
I don't. Why did you not reply to my post?


----------



## bignose1 (Nov 4, 2010)

cogg said:


> You must feel good posting up someone's real name whilst keeping your own anonymity and then smearing the same person.



Gone


----------



## past caring (Nov 4, 2010)

past caring said:


> After reading No Retreat, I can well imagine Tilzey referring to himself in the third person. Just the way he comes across in the book, like.....





bignose1 said:


> Tilzey is mentioned numerous times all in a bad light yet you bleat away about mentioning names..anonymously. The inference re Harrogate was that he was a coward. The people who go on about being so game and brave were pilloried for supposedly shitting it at the Enkel, *all bollox i know but while you stick the knife into him hes bound to fightback using whatever fucking name he wants.* The Red Action book does exactly what it accuses Hann and Tilzey did ie naming people. The ref to the arson is too much detail..furthermore the scenario with Tilzeys ex, I fail to how follow the master plan Denis especially as it was you who was shagging her.



I fucking knew it.


----------



## love detective (Nov 4, 2010)

> hes bound to fightback using....



how are your comrades at carter ruck by the way?


----------



## LiamO (Nov 4, 2010)

bignose1 said:


> Tilzey is mentioned numerous times all in a bad light yet you bleat away about mentioning names..anonymously. The inference re Harrogate was that he was a coward. The people who go on about being so game and brave were pilloried for supposedly shitting it at the Enkel, all bollox i know but while you stick the knife into him hes bound to fightback using whatever fucking name he wants. The Red Action book does exactly what it accuses Hann and Tilzey did ie naming people. The ref to the arson is too much detail...


 
Steve, Steve, Steve. Slow down mate. Your posts have 5 only hours between them. You obviously need more sleep.

I have no personal axe to grind with you but these are the facts. You wrote your book - a personal memoire which you wrote for your own reasons, without consulting too many. Now a large group of other people have written theirs - a political and historical record of an entire political movement over a long period of time, which they wrote in consultation with many people. I understand why you might not like what is written about you, but the book isn't about you and the political movement wasn't about you. 

The arson thing? No big mystery. One fella  got caught, kept schtum, did his bird. Hid comrades were never apprehended. Where do you think the story came from, apart from one of the participants? What they choose to say is exactly that... _their choice_.

Did Red Action try to nobble 'No Retreat' by threatening legal action against the authors or the publishers? No they did not. Yet you saw fit to do so with BTF.


----------



## bignose1 (Nov 4, 2010)

love detective said:


> how are your comrades at carter ruck by the way?



Nowt to do with Tilzey..... but when you threatened to rerun the bollox of the Red Action Forum circa 2003 and all the lurid shit in your book then Im sure it might have crossed his mind.


----------



## bignose1 (Nov 4, 2010)

past caring said:


> I fucking knew it.



Whose a clever boy


----------



## bignose1 (Nov 4, 2010)

Gone


----------



## love detective (Nov 4, 2010)

bignose1 said:


> Nowt to do with Tilzey.....


 
so you're saying they lied about you in the shite they sent us?

you should sue them - know any good lawyers? (don't use the one that was used against us - she was hopeless)


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## TopCat (Nov 4, 2010)

All this third person shite is getting on my nerves. Is big nose tilzey?


----------



## LiamO (Nov 4, 2010)

@ Bignose

have you had a religious conversion and are now speaking in tongues? 

Slow down.         Type in english.          Leave some white space.         Get a grip, you are ranting.


PS. If you would like to PM me at any stage, feel free.


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## Divisive Cotton (Nov 4, 2010)

Why do you have these public spats? The only beneficences are the fash


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## cogg (Nov 4, 2010)

bignose1 said:


> So why do you post using a sue do nim....tosser


 
I don't. That's the name most of my family and friends call me. Also, I've been posting on here for 8 years so it's not difficult to work out who I am.


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## Demu (Nov 4, 2010)

bignose1 said:


> Its been mooted in the book that Denis Clifford should have led the Manchester squad. Well he would have if he'd been more reliable. He got a bad rep for not making events due to either being hungover or just too lazy. Its clever to say that the Rocdale 8 lads shouldnt have gone up there but iif theyd have waited for Clifford to turn up theyd still be sat there now. Its great hindsight isnt it. You can call Tilzey many things but he was never a coward.(Harrogate) Your source is fuddled...too much you know what. Loyalty to Manchester was what was important and most of the twats posting about him were either from outside or cleared off to London. You know fuck all about the place.



Hello Steve,

Lets clear up the insults first. Coward. I certainly would not describe you in those terms. When I joined the squad it was because of lads such as yourself, big Steve, Roy, who were prepared to go the extra mile and risk the nickings and the kickings for what you believed in. 

Harrogate. There were three sources of information for that story. Dessie Noonan’s recollection of the events in the park after the pub battle are retold in the book, and the story is not new to you. Perhaps this story reflects your move away from street activity, as you stated in No retreat. 

There was only one leader of the squad and that was JP as we both know. When JP and the Rochdale lads were in prison, the streetwork continued with its own leadership which wasn’t well received by 2 members of your organisation. When JP was released, he issued a statement signed by all including you, ending relations with Searchlight. A strange course of action to take in defence of a lazy unreliable drunk, don’t you think?

Unreliable and lazy? Honestly Steve. Next you will be telling people that I smell.

I find this (and the nonsense you were posting on Indymedia) extermely sad really, especially as when you appeared unexpectedly, in a pub where I drink, I did not have a problem talking to you. We had a reasonable conversation, and when, almost immediately, you raised the matter of the book you co-wrote, saying it was the one thing you wished you hadn’t done, I actually told you I had no issue with you writing the book. In my view you were fully entitled to do so, but you should have wrote your own (full) story of your days in the squad and what you got up to with searchlight, rather than teaming up with someone who we both knew was damaged goods. You could have been Searchlight’s Andy McNab.

And again when you appeared the following week, I was cordial and prepared to have a drink and a chat with you, albeit somewhat bemused as to why you suddenly found my company so compelling after a 12 year hiatus, But when you appeared for the third time, I had to draw a line under it and shoo you away. 

When you rang me regarding Dave Hann and the fanzine, following his departure from AFA, I met you in Didsbury at your request and resolved matters with you. 

Steve, if you have issues with me, I don’t have a problem sitting down with you to go through them, but let’s make it mutually convenient next time. 

You have written your book and had your say. I have been asked about events that I was allegedly involved in, and have commented accordingly like many others who were involved. Some have been included in the book, some haven’t.

This book is a long overdue and comprehensive (if not complete) history of AFA, where it came from, what happened on the way, and where it went. That’s all a bit bigger than you and me and a bit more important too. Just be glad you got a mention and move on.


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## bignose1 (Nov 4, 2010)

gone


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## Citizen66 (Nov 4, 2010)

bignose1 said:


> So why do you post using a sue do nim....tosser


 
Detective-'boy's wee brother?


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## love detective (Nov 4, 2010)

bignose1 said:


> But wasnt it the same legal firm that Oxford IWCA used to sue the labour party for 15k. So GTF on that one.


 
it's hardly the same thing though is it

a pro-working class organisation using them (on a no win/no fee basis) against a member of an anti-working class party of government 

one anti-fascist using them (cash up front) against other anti-fascists takes the biscuit


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## LiamO (Nov 4, 2010)

But what a Movement, what a brilliant thing that we were _all_ part of. The early ANL, the Squads, AFA... all consistently (ahem) punched well above their weight. If the Fash had known how few we were (and if they had the balls) we would've been well fucked. But they didn't, thanks be to fuck.

At times it was just like a scene out of like '300' - but with beer bellies... and without the men in underpants... and the swords and shields... and 2500 years later... and yep, just like it.


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## bignose1 (Nov 5, 2010)

Demu said:


> Hello Steve,
> 
> Lets clear up the insults first. Coward. I certainly would not describe you in those terms. When I joined the squad it was because of lads such as yourself, big Steve, Roy, who were prepared to go the extra mile and risk the nickings and the kickings for what you believed in.
> 
> ...



When all that unsavoury stuff came out on the RA forum after No Retreat it got very personal and dont forget Ive got kids family friends etc who shouldnt have had to be potentially exposed to all that let alone giving the fash all the ins and outs. The AFA book when I get round to reading it completely will be a compeling read. I was a part of that. It will however be tinged with sadness about how comrades have turned on each other. Dont think for one minute Ive enjoyed repelling the personal comments with  bit of vitriol, youll usually find there late at night and at weekends. Re the pub stuff. One of your pals in the pub opposite asked me over to say hello to you which I did and we had a decent chat. My issues with No Retreat were not with writing it per se but because of its style, context, the fall outs etc etc etc I also left out a lot of stuff because it may have compromised people. It wasnt a Searchlight spoiler they had exactly zero input and have never commented on it.The second time I met you was because I was in there with mates, dont flatter yourself fellah, it is/was my local. I dont go in now as there is some issue, not sure what exactly But most of the lads in there are pals who I watched grow up as kids. When I walked in the last time  to see Big Fred rolling about with some kid I thought what the fuck am I doing here, is this peoples idea of a good night. It seems that the guy who punched me in the face or was it a slap it may have been a bird actually for what it was worth finally sealed it for me so I keep clear and you welcome to it. We were very good pals, comrades etc and in a clear sober frame of mind it makes me sick at how youve all turned me into some kind of pariah. Ive gone down the personal route too which I regret and which from this post will call it a day..full stop. I didnt move away from street activity till mid to late 90s following a serious knee injury which makes the Harrogate tale a bit flimsy.And although Ive put on a lot of timber and Im no longer game Im still politically active, no not with your nemesis organisation but involved with fighting to save peoples jobs. Getting a mention in your book...thanks but no thanks..slipping down the food chain is hardly complimentary but I suppose Ive been called worse than plankton so really I should be grateful. Well I respect your open, public response and I can hand on heart on my part leave this shitty thread thats festering and giving the fash wanking material for good.


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## bignose1 (Nov 5, 2010)

*reply bto demu*

1





bignose1 said:


> When all that unsavoury stuff came out on the RA forum after No Retreat it got very personal and dont forget Ive got kids family friends etc who shouldnt have had to be potentially exposed to all that let alone giving the fash all the ins and outs. The AFA book when I get round to reading it completely will be a compeling read. I was a part of that. It will however be tinged with sadness about how comrades have turned on each other. Dont think for one minute Ive enjoyed repelling the personal comments with  bit of vitriol, youll usually find there late at night and at weekends. Re the pub stuff. One of your pals in the pub opposite asked me over to say hello to you which I did and we had a decent chat. My issues with No Retreat were not with writing it per se but because of its style, context, the fall outs etc etc etc I also left out a lot of stuff because it may have compromised people. It wasnt a Searchlight spoiler they had exactly zero input and have never commented on it.The second time I met you was because I was in there with mates, dont flatter yourself fellah, it is/was my local. I dont go in now as there is some issue, not sure what exactly But most of the lads in there are pals who I watched grow up as kids. When I walked in the last time  to see Big Fred rolling about with some kid I thought what the fuck am I doing here, is this peoples idea of a good night. It seems that the guy who punched me in the face or was it a slap it may have been a bird actually for what it was worth finally sealed it for me so I keep clear and you welcome to it. We were very good pals, comrades etc and in a clear sober frame of mind it makes me sick at how youve all turned me into some kind of pariah. Ive gone down the personal route too which I regret and which from this post will call it a day..full stop. I didnt move away from street activity till mid to late 90s following a serious knee injury which makes the Harrogate tale a bit flimsy.And although Ive put on a lot of timber and Im no longer game Im still politically active, no not with your nemesis organisation but involved with fighting to save peoples jobs. Getting a mention in your book...thanks but no thanks..slipping down the food chain is hardly complimentary but I suppose Ive been called worse than plankton so really I should be grateful. Well I respect your open, public response and I can hand on heart on my part leave this shitty thread thats festering and giving the fash wanking material for good.


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## LiamO (Nov 5, 2010)

Given the conciliatory (and grown-up) tone of D's post and of Steve's response... IMO it would be unhelpful for any of the rest of us to induge ourselves in cheap parting shots at Steve.  

Yes there are some personal feelings of hurt, which could perhaps be discussed privately, but there is no need, or reason, for washing dirty laundry on here now. I remember good times, good camraderie and good craic with Steve Tilzey. Whatever fall outs may have occurred, with the passing of time, it is _these_ I choose to focus on.


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## Joe Reilly (Nov 5, 2010)

Demu; 

Just to clarify: 

There was only one leader of the squad and that was JP as we both know. When JP and the Rochdale lads were in prison said:
			
		

> (with DC prominent)[/I] which wasn’t well received by 2 members of your organisation.
> 
> _Searchlight then made a move to hold Squad meetings without DC. Instead what happened was that Squad meetings were held with DC present and without Searchlight.
> _
> When JP was released, he issued a statement signed by all including you, ending relations with Searchlight. A strange course of action to take in defence of a lazy unreliable drunk, don’t you think?


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## The39thStep (Nov 5, 2010)

LiamO said:


> Given the conciliatory (and grown-up) tone of D's post and of Steve's response... IMO it would be unhelpful for any of the rest of us to induge ourselves in cheap parting shots at Steve.
> 
> Yes there are some personal feelings of hurt, which could perhaps be discussed privately, but there is no need, or reason, for washing dirty laundry on here now. I remember good times, good camraderie and good craic with Steve Tilzey. Whatever fall outs may have occurred, with the passing of time, it is _these_ I choose to focus on.


 
Hear hear.

What I want to read is a discussion about what posters feel about the book and its political conclusions ( not just the last chapter ones)


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## Nice one (Nov 8, 2010)

just to clarify the book has not formally been released yet. The bulk of the order is still not back from the printers. We did a limited pre-order in time for the bookfair, but most of those have gone. 

So the book is available so far only directly through freedom, or the iwca related site. Any mainstream press and publicity will have to coincide with the mass availabilty of the book - looking likely the end of november now. Also there's usually a three month window where books get reviewed and publicised once the publication date is finalised. 

In terms of targeting the radical left-wing press, the representatives of the authors wanted to avoid that environment, a decision i personally agree with, so it'll be promoted it as legitimate read, rather than a niche-market political tome. It's an important piece of social history, and that's how it's going to be marketed to a wide mainstream audience.


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## Fedayn (Nov 8, 2010)

Nice to see a picture of my former near neighbour on page 300, it's the female bonehead i'm referring to.


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## The39thStep (Nov 8, 2010)

Fedayn said:


> Nice to see a picture of my former near neighbour on page 300, it's the female bonehead i'm referring to.


 
was she called Cath, worked in the Civil Service or something? had a boy friend who looked like the jolly green giant?


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## Fedayn (Nov 8, 2010)

The39thStep said:


> was she called Cath, worked in the Civil Service or something? had a boy friend who looked like the jolly green giant?


 
Cathy Murphy, aye she worked in the old Benefits Agency. She had two boyfriends at the time-consecutive not concurrent-the first being Simon Curtis a bonehead member of Skrewdriver Security and who lived on the same landing and right opposite a leading member of Militant. He was a big fucker and probably who you mean. She then split wth him (allegations of domestic violence were told to union reps at her work) and moved round the corner from where I lived with a smaller bonehead called Adrian Blundell, a leading member (sic), of White Aryan Resistance (probably a leading member of 10 members)..... I literally ran into him on my way home once and sent him flying.... Funny as fuck.... Him and Murphy used to have regular teas with Max Wagegg a former SS soldier who lived in Brimingham.


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## Louise Purbrick (Nov 8, 2010)

Response to allegations made about the late Dave Hann in Beating the Fascists: The Untold Story of Anti-Fascist Action published by Freedom Press

As Dave Hann’s partner of 15 years, I am making this statement to refute the account of him in Beating the Fascists, in particular, that he was guilty of mugging a gay student.

The truth is that in 1995 Dave was, along with a friend, charged with robbery. He pleaded not guilty and was acquitted by a Crown Court jury. 

The book claims that the jury reached a not guilty verdict not because Dave was innocent, as he was, but because members of Red Action concocted a defence for his friend which would cause the jury to doubt the victim’s version of events in order to prevent damage to Red Action’s reputation if Dave, who was then a member, was found guilty. 

It is suggested that Dave left Red Action because of this case. Dave wrote about his reasons for leaving Red Action in the last few pages of the book he co-authored, No Retreat (2003) and he spoke to me at the time and subsequently. I can confirm that his reasons were wholly ideological and, inevitably, led to political disagreements between Dave and others within Red Action who since have sought to undermine him.

As such, I reject the claims made about Dave in this book. Indeed, I simply do not recognise the portrait painted of the honest man and reliable political activist with whom I shared half my adult life.

It is difficult to see the purpose of this book other than as an attempt to retrospectively justify the actions of a few individuals, which, whilst adding nothing to current debates in the anti-fascist movement or to its collective historical record, damages the reputations of many and causes a great deal of hurt.

People who knew Dave and were part of communities in which he lived and worked have always ignored accusations made to discredit him. Unfortunately some who have known him only by name have used it in a sectarian and destructive row. I would ask them to show more respect, not just for a deceased person who lived a honourable life or his family who have yet to come to terms their loss, but for themselves and the anti-fascist movement of which they claim to be a part.

In his last interview, Dave stated that ‘the most positive thing’ resulting from No Retreat was that it provided some inspiration to anti-fascists in ‘countries like Serbia, Poland and Russia were the fascists are fairly rampant’ and he talked about his determination to keep writing. When he died, he had almost completed a manuscript charting anti-fascism in Britain from 1920s to today, not only covering well-known events but also forgotten local groups and their actions. He combined writing with building work, involvement in youth and community football and support for local anti-Guantanamo campaign. He also helped run a residents group to which he brought organisational skills learnt though years of anti-fascist work and was always trusted because of his respect for the right of people to control their own lives. 

Louise Purbrick


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## Fedayn (Nov 8, 2010)

Louise Purbrick said:


> It is difficult to see the purpose of this book other than as an attempt to retrospectively justify the actions of a few individuals, which, whilst adding nothing to current debates in the anti-fascist movement or to its collective historical record, damages the reputations of many and causes a great deal of hurt.


 
It was a tiny part of a well written book, quite how that makes the book redundant or having added nothing to the historical record of anti-fascism is frankly beyond me.


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## LiamO (Nov 9, 2010)

Louise Purbrick said:


> Response to allegations made about the late Dave Hann in Beating the Fascists: The Untold Story of Anti-Fascist Action published by Freedom Press
> 
> As such, I reject the claims made about Dave in this book. _*Indeed, I simply do not recognise the portrait painted of the honest man and reliable political activist*_ with whom I shared half my adult life.
> 
> Louise Purbrick



There _are_ no allegations made in the book, merely some statements of sad fact. Facts which I went to the trouble of checking out - despite my strong belief in the honesty of the source - because I too had difficulty believing what I was hearing and recognising Dave in the story. But they did check out. And from far too many reliable people.

Whilst he was never the General he portrayed himself as in 'No Retreat' Dave Hann was a game and trusted comrade. Unfortunately he lost the run of himself after a long period of intense pressure and behaved in a way which directly contradicted all he, and we, stood for. He made some bad personal choices - and left himself and the organisation he represented badly exposed.

Nobody was more shocked when the sordid details of his nocturnal activities emerged than us, his comrades. Action needed to be taken. That action is outlined in the book.

Whilst it is admirable that you are 'Stand(ing) By Your Man', it is my understanding that you had not even met Dave at the time of this incident. Therefore your 'case' is predicated on what you feel for Dave and what you think he was or was not capable of. We were his contemporaries in those intense days. As unpalatable as it may be for you, I have no doubt where the unfortunate truth lies.


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## The39thStep (Nov 9, 2010)

Near the very end of the book one chapter describes the period in which their was the discussion about how to continue to 'fill the vacuum'. It states that DAM wound up due to internal diffrences. 

What were those internal diffrences and what happended to those who held those political differences? I know that AFED came out of DAM but did anything else materialise? Also what happended to those individuals in DAM that were decribed as well respected in the book? 

I only came across DAM members in Manchester , one of whom I knew quite well but he dropped out of politics  and moved.


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## Fedayn (Nov 9, 2010)

The39thStep said:


> Near the very end of the book one chapter describes the period in which their was the discussion about how to continue to 'fill the vacuum'. It states that DAM wound up due to internal diffrences.
> 
> What were those internal diffrences and what happended to those who held those political differences? I know that AFED came out of DAM but did anything else materialise? Also what happended to those individuals in DAM that were decribed as well respected in the book?
> 
> I only came across DAM members in Manchester , one of whom I knew quite well but he dropped out of politics  and moved.



DAM used to have an office/po box in Piccadilly and they for some reason had a fairly reguler wee paper sale in Crewe where they had one or twom members.
I thought it was the Solidarity federation than came from DAM? I think those from Crewe I knew stayed in and about anarchist/local/animal rights politics.


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## the button (Nov 9, 2010)

Fedayn said:


> I thought it was the Solidarity federation than came from DAM?



It was indeed.


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## The39thStep (Nov 9, 2010)

the button said:


> It was indeed.


 
Right ignore the bit I put in re AFED and DAM . I was obviously misinformed by some unreliable anarchisty type.


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## steeplejack (Nov 9, 2010)

I bought this recently on a visit to London and must admit I'm very favourably impressed by it.

I have no particular axe to grind with any of the left/militant anti-fa sides involved and was not, like many on this thread, directly involved in any of the events described.

However, to an outsider, it does seem a pretty honest account of the times, and paints both good and bad results from direct force anti-fascism pretty clearly. I had no idea that the Welling riot was held to be a state sponsored riot, nor was I fully aware of the level of provocation from state actors that anti fascist militants faced. 

At times it does descend into a bit of an Ealing comedy- _"a right hook planted him in the geraniums"_, various fascists soiling themselves at inopportune moments, etc, laugh out loud funny stuff like that relieve lengthy and sometimes a little tedious minutiae of internal organisational politics.

The troubling thing is that the RA / IWCA analysis has largely been borne out by subsequent events, and that anti-fascists, who according to this account largely battered the BNP/NF/B&H/C18 off the streets, have subsequently been left stalled at the traffic lights as the BNP have cleaned up electorally. Hopelessly divided along sectarian lines and with almost as many counter-strategies as organisations, the cobweb left and fellow travellers are now so far behind the BNP electorally as to be (almost) an irrelevance. That truly is tragic outcome. Ironically, a mixture of internal tensions and external criminalisation may do for the BNP in its current format, but another organisation will quickly spring up in its stead if that happens.

A good book, but people have been on this and other message-boards for a decade now trying to work out the best way to counter the electoral growth of the far right, and we're still no nearer any kind of convincing answer. A second volume in the series- charting the rise of the IWCA and its successes and failures, may well be an interesting contribution. the later stages of the radical anti-fascist project are a little bit skated over towards the end which is perhaps the book's one weakness.


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## Demu (Nov 9, 2010)

The release of Beating the Fascists, despite one or two legal hurdles, has again raised the controversy surrounding Dave Hann and the book No Retreat. Louise Purbrick is entitled to express what she believes to be true, and likewise so do those who have been active in AFA during these years and worked with her late partner. 

Your defence of Dave Hann is understandable but the events surrounding his arrest occurred when you were not in a position to make a judgement as you were not aware of the circumstances at the time, and neither were you present in court to witness the case against both Dave and Mark, and the defence subsequently used to achieve an acquittal. 

Hann’s credibility, rests on whether he was guilty of, or complicit in, the mugging of a gay person with his friend Mark Turner. This activity by either or both of them, either singularly or jointly cannot be reconciled with that of the anti fascist activists portrayed in No Retreat. 

The first tenet of your rebuttal is that Dave was ‘acquitted’ of the charges lodged against him in court.

Dave Hann chose not to elaborate on the circumstances of his arrest for robbery in the book No Retreat and to my knowledge has never given any explanation publicly which differs from that which he gave privately to his comrades in the Salutation, where he admitted his role in the affair. 

The only ‘proof ‘offered for Dave’s innocence is the verdict achieved in court on the day, and the details of how this was achieved are now explained in Beating the Fascists. 
A statement issued by LM Price on behalf of Dave Hann on 16th February 2004 states ‘Dave had been charged with robbery alongside a friend, Mark Turner, who pleaded guilty to the lesser offence of theft. Liverpool Crown Court awarded him a £600 fine as opposed to a custodial sentence because the incident was not considered to involve violence. It should be pointed out that the sexual identity of the key police witness, the ‘gay man’, was just an assumption made during the trial (and by Red Action) and not a declaration made by the man himself.’ As the book now explains, his sexual identity was revealed under cross examination by the defence team, and was central to Hann’s acquittal. 

 It should be added that, as no meetings were held with Dave’s co-defendant Mark, any defence subsequently used by Mark, can only have been a construct between the defendants themselves, regardless of where Dave received the inspiration! By Mark taking the blame, Dave avoided having to take the witness stand and explain his role in the event, whilst under cross examination. 

For many anti fascists there are far too many unanswered questions surrounding Hann’s involvement with Mark on the night he was arrested, for him to be innocent. The consistent stonewalling of all opportunities to answer these questions, has only added to this disquiet and instead hide behind the claim that it is all a political smear just does not stand up to scrutiny.

What was Dave Hann doing down a back alley near a gay club at 4 in the morning with Mark Turner.

Why did the innocent victim of a violent street robbery identify Dave Hann and Mark Turner to a passing motorbike policeman who apprehended them in the area of the attack almost immediately.

Why would the victim lie?

Why were they jointly charged with the same offence? 

What was Dave Hann doing in possession of the proceeds of the robbery?

Why did Mark consistently plead not guilty for over a year right up until the Crown Court appearance, only to then change his plea to guilty? 

Surely an innocent Dave Hann (or his legal team if aware) would have pointed this out to Mark at the preliminary stage, or certainly by the committal stage.

Why did Hann not report his predicament to his comrades in Red Action and AFA.

Because he was clearly innocent, is not the answer that springs to mind is it? 

The second tenet of your rebuttal is that Hann left Red Action for ideological reasons. 

In No Retreat Hann says that he did not support the IWCA initiative as it meant that his commitment to Red Attitude and Freedom of Movement would suffer, and as a result this led him to resign.

Red Attitude was already on its uppers, having produced 5 issues in 94/95 season, this was down to only 3 issues in 95/96 season. It was losing money and alienating both football supporters and anti fascists alike. Witness the city fascists / united anti fascists spin put on an encounter between AFA (midlands)and a BNP supporter wearing a Man City shirt on a Troops Out march. And its editor was on serious charges.

The Freedom of Movement initiative was allied to but also independent of AFA and functioned regardless of him, both before and after his departure. Red Attitude fanzine continued to be produced and sold after Dave Hanns departure.  

When challenged within Red Action over the direction of the fanzine, in a document entitled, ‘What is the Score’ , Hann responded with a document entitled, ‘This is the Score’,  which also served as his  resignation letter. The follow up document entitled, ‘They think its all over…Or is it?’, reveals the real reason why this particular little spat about the direction of a football fanzine should force his resignation. 

‘When the Walsall incident occurred in March 95, Dave was on bail for matters of a somewhat less than politically correct nature, and due in court shortly.’

‘ He should have stood down from positions in AFA and the fanzine when he got himself in trouble as a matter of principle in order that the political issues were not affected by the allegations lodged against him. However he couldn’t do this for fear of the truth coming out. Instead Dave chose to compromise Red Action, AFA and the fanzine rather than compromise himself’ 

Louise, you are entitled to believe he is innocent. I am entitled to believe that what he admitted to me face to face, at his behest, when facing conviction and a possible jail sentence, was true.


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## LiamO (Nov 11, 2010)

I received this by e-mail from an 'old Comrade' today...

_"i got the book on tuesday when down london - one of my very few occasions these days - glad its written, and will certainly let others know its out - sadly, but not that surprising it lacks political analysis of why fascists have appeal and there's no self-criticism, [such as why we failed to get more people involved] we won, they lost - as if." _

I know it is impossible for me to read the book with anything approaching objectivity, I was wondering what other people think about the points he raised?

I should also add that there was one further line to his correspondence...


_..."but i'll read it and give a more considered opinion later " _


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## trevhagl (Nov 11, 2010)

LiamO said:


> I received this by e-mail from an 'old Comrade' today...
> 
> _"i got the book on tuesday when down london - one of my very few occasions these days - glad its written, and will certainly let others know its out - sadly, but not that surprising it lacks political analysis of why fascists have appeal and there's no self-criticism, [such as why we failed to get more people involved] we won, they lost - as if." _
> 
> ...


 
sounds like an almost Urban level of negativity!


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## Spanky Longhorn (Nov 11, 2010)

LiamO said:


> I received this by e-mail from an 'old Comrade' today...
> 
> _"i got the book on tuesday when down london - one of my very few occasions these days - glad its written, and will certainly let others know its out - sadly, but not that surprising it lacks political analysis of why fascists have appeal and there's no self-criticism, [such as why we failed to get more people involved] we won, they lost - as if." _
> 
> ...



Well exactly, I will be prepared to have a think about what he says in a more considered opinion!


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## fiannanahalba (Nov 12, 2010)

Great book, just finished it. RA was a sound outfit.


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## trevhagl (Nov 12, 2010)

looks like my eyes are in for a bit of a lashing cos the woman has hinted i'm getting it for Xmas


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## ooermissus (Nov 12, 2010)

Violence only breeds more violence.


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## LiamO (Nov 12, 2010)

ooermissus said:


> Violence only breeds more violence.



incisive. Do expand.


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## TopCat (Nov 12, 2010)

ooermissus said:


> Violence only breeds more violence.


 
It didn't with AFA. It did though seem to breed a large amount of limping far righters.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 12, 2010)

TopCat said:


> It didn't with AFA. It did though seem to breed a large amount of limping far righters.


 
not to mention changed trousers


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## Pickman's model (Nov 12, 2010)

ooermissus said:


> Violence only breeds more violence.


 
for example where?


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## dennisr (Nov 12, 2010)

the internets says it - so it must be true


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## ooermissus (Nov 12, 2010)

LiamO said:


> incisive. Do expand.


 
If you want to read information on Pacifism I would be more than happy to direct you.


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## tbaldwin (Nov 12, 2010)

LiamO said:


> I received this by e-mail from an 'old Comrade' today...
> 
> _"i got the book on tuesday when down london - one of my very few occasions these days - glad its written, and will certainly let others know its out - sadly, but not that surprising it lacks political analysis of why fascists have appeal and there's no self-criticism, [such as why we failed to get more people involved] we won, they lost - as if." _
> 
> ...


 
All sounds about right to me. The book is well worth reading in my view. Yeah of course its a view of AFA not shared by all and not even all who made it what it was. But nobobdy could deny that the author was a central figure who was very very succesful at times in the political activity of anti fascism....A flawed character id say but aernt we all to a degree.....I will be recommending it to all my old and not so old mates....Hope it does really well and the writer ends up living in alderley edge....


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## Backatcha Bandit (Nov 13, 2010)

ooermissus said:


> If you want to read information on Pacifism I would be more than happy to direct you.




Why, allow me!


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## Citizen66 (Nov 13, 2010)

Backatcha Bandit said:


> Why, allow me!


 
Blimey. welcome back.


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## Louise Purbrick (Nov 15, 2010)

*Standing by*

There is mistaken assumption on a previous post that I did not know my late partner, Dave Hann, in 1994. I would like to correct this. We met shortly after I took up a lecturing post at Manchester Metropolitan University in 1993 at meeting addressed by Irish Republican speaker Una Gillsepie hosted by Manchester Troops Out movement and stewarded by members of Manchester Anti-Fascist Action. 

I do have a clear recollection of the court case that has so preoccupied Dave’s critics because in occurred at time of heightened political activity through which I made the most important friendships of my life, not just with Dave but other activists and colleagues. I have also learnt, as many bereaved people do, to track back to memories to discover more details than just fleeting images. 

I cannot, however, recall the exact date when Dave was arrested but I do remember the day and have a general sense of when it took place. It must have been May or June in 1994. Dave and I were not yet a couple but had formed a friendship through political discussions about Irish solidarity work and anti-fascism. I had called him and asked if he had time to talk after I had finished work. Dave was a student at Manchester Metropolitan at the time and I thought there was a good chance he would be free to give me some advice about a forthcoming Troops Out Movement demonstration. I was Press Officer for this demonstration; it was to mark the 25th anniversary of the deployment of British troops in Ireland and was due to take place in early August in London. My concerns were about security at the start of the march. We were gathering in the park adjacent to the Imperial War Museum (called something like St Geraldine’s); it wasn’t an area I knew at all well and was aware that if you can’t leave the park in safety, there is no march. London Troops Out Movement and London Anti-Fascist Action were at loggerheads and I had no idea about any possible fascist threat. I met Dave in a pub at the back of my university building and we talked until another AFA member arrived, angry because he’d had a row with his wife. I couldn’t get a word in edgeways and left for home. 

I bumped into Dave in All Saints Park a few days later. I worked in the Righton Building just off the Oxford Road and on the corner of this park. I can see Dave now as he spoke to me: worn baseball cap, denim jacket over a Fred Perry style shirt, blue denim jeans, loafers. He told me he had been arrested in the early hours of the morning after meeting up with me. I was a bit taken aback, must have looked concerned, and he told me what happened: he and his friend had ended up in a pub called the Swinging Sporan, the venue of an AFA benefit and supposed to be friendly pub for anti-fascists. That night, however, it full of heavy metal fans. There had been rows about the origins of rock and roll music that had ended up in scuffles. Dave told me that he was really the worse for wear and said it was a pretty horrible night then to top it all his friend hit someone as they were walking home and they had been arrested. I recall Dave saying something like he hoped the next time we met for a drink he didn’t end up in a police cell. I asked how long he was kept. The rest of the night and into the morning, he told me, because he had refused to give a statement. Rather than make a big political fuss, he kept repeating that he was too drunk to be interviewed and he said to me that he couldn’t really say anything that would not make things worse for his friend. 

Despite all the anxiety that reading false accusations against Dave has caused me, I am grateful for one thing: in all the trawling back over memories I caught hold of one that I had forgotten. The march to mark 25th anniversary of deployment of British troops in Ireland left the park next to the Imperial War Museum safely. As the Press Officer, my job was to walk up and down the sides of the march talking to photographers giving them the press release so they can get the attribution of any image they publish correct and, hopefully, the state the purpose of the march. The Broadcasting Ban was still in operation and I also had the text of contributions from Irish Republicans that had been recorded for the rally. When a TV channel (I can’t remember which one) covered the event, the text was filmed as the voices would not be broadcast. My job was done for the day and I walked away from the rally to get a look at the size of the demonstration to confirm our estimate of numbers (3,000 maybe) but in Hyde Park, where we ended up, the whole thing looked tiny. I was disappointed but I bumped into Dave and another AFA member from Manchester, they told me that they had got the tube up from the Elephant and Castle after following up some vague information that the fash, as they were called then, were gathering in pub there. Once the march left the area, they made their way to its end. I hope I thanked Dave enough at the time. I can usually rely on my politeness but from then until now I don’t think either us ever recalled our meeting in Hyde Park and the way that on that particular occasion Dave operated, as he did so many times, as a good friend and an committed activist. 

So, I do stand by Dave but not as some forlorn figure from a country and western song but as an political activist as well as his partner, proud to have worked alongside him and grateful for his help.

Louise Purbrick


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## LiamO (Nov 15, 2010)

No doubt somebody from Manchester will be along shortly to demolish much of your post in detail. In the meantime...

_Nobody_ is denying Dave was a committed political activist. Unfortunately for him, and AFA, he made some bad personal choices which were at odds with his political and personal ethics. He then chose to withold information (which could have had serious political repercussions for AFA and RA) from his comrades - and misled them right up until the point he was facing jail. Then he turned to RA for help. 

It is not a question of when you met Dave.... it is a question of what you knew. He chose not to tell you the full facts at the time. He was hardly likely to admit them when he was in a relationship with you, thus jeopardising the one good thing left in his life, was he? We all knew him well. Had done for years. And yet he chose to keep his arrest (and the reason for it) from his Comrades for the best part of a year. One more bad personal and political choice.

Who amongst us woud like to be judged on our worst (drink-fuelled) behaviour rather than our best? I certainly wouldn't. But Dave's behaviour - on the night in question; in keeping his 'secret' til the end;  and after his bizarre (delusional almost) conclusion that because he got off thanks to a strategy (reluctantly) invented by his comrades, he was somehow 'innocent' - means that is _exactly_ what he will be judged on


E2A - BTW Dave refered to this incident in the Swinging Sporran in 'No Retreat', did he not? I recall no mention of this arrest (which _you _claim was) later that same night. Funny that...


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## Citizen66 (Nov 15, 2010)

But he's dead. What's the point? 

From an outsiders point of view, all this mud raking serves nothing but hurts those who were close to him. And of course, he isn't here to defend himself.


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## LiamO (Nov 15, 2010)

Citizen66 said:


> But he's dead. What's the point?
> 
> From an outsiders point of view, all this mud raking serves nothing but hurts those who were close to him. And of course, he isn't here to defend himself.



I agree it serves no purpose now. I would suggest you address that question to the person who unfortunately keeps bringing him up, who also happens to be the person closest to him.


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## Louis MacNeice (Nov 15, 2010)

LiamO said:


> I agree it serves no purpose now. I would suggest you address that question to the person who unfortunately keeps bringing him up, who also happens to be the person closest to him.


 
What is Louise supposed to do? She reads Dave being attacked and is meant to just let it go?

I have known her pretty much all her adult life and she has always been consistently honest and reliable.

What she's certainly not is some sort of tragic country and western figure.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


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## LiamO (Nov 15, 2010)

Louis MacNeice said:


> What is Louise supposed to do? She reads Dave being attacked and is meant to just let it go?
> 
> I have known her pretty much all her adult life and she has always been consistently honest and reliable.
> 
> ...



With all due respect Louis, what she might do is take the trouble, as I did, to aquaint herself with the unfortunate and unwholesome truths of the matter. What she should perhaps _not_ do is - having steadfastly refused to take the first course of action - to employ a firm of Libel lawyers to attempt to prevent the entire book (which hardly dwells on Dave or his actions) from being published  - at least without her getting to 'edit' it first. 

Dave afforded no such 'editing' /approval facility to those he either named or mentioned (or indeed airbrushed out) of his personal account.

I doubt neither her honesty, reliability nor consistency. I know nobody who does. But if the information on which anyone bases their opinion is flawed and false, then their opinion remains likewise .


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## krtek a houby (Nov 16, 2010)

ooermissus said:


> Violence only breeds more violence.


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 16, 2010)

LiamO said:


> With all due respect Louis, what she might do is take the trouble, as I did, to aquaint herself with the unfortunate and unwholesome truths of the matter. What she should perhaps _not_ do is - having steadfastly refused to take the first course of action - to employ a firm of Libel lawyers to attempt to prevent the entire book (which hardly dwells on Dave or his actions) from being published  - at least without her getting to 'edit' it first.
> 
> Dave afforded no such 'editing' /approval facility to those he either named or mentioned (or indeed airbrushed out) of his personal account.
> 
> I doubt neither her honesty, reliability nor consistency. I know nobody who does. But if the information on which anyone bases their opinion is flawed and false, then their opinion remains likewise .


 
You can't libel the dead.


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## LiamO (Nov 16, 2010)

ooermissus said:


> Violence only breeds more violence.







jer said:


>


 
Once again you pick the best of friends cry-baby

last week the defective detective-boy, this week a banned tory troll...


----------



## LiamO (Nov 16, 2010)

Citizen66 said:


> You can't libel the dead.


 
That may be. And probably why the publishers told them where to stick their threatening letters. 

But the letter I have in front of me as I type this is definitely from Carter-Ruck, who I believe are eminent firm of libel Lawyers, no?


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 16, 2010)

LiamO said:


> That may be. And probably why the publishers told them where to stick their threatening letters.
> 
> But the letter I have in front of me as I type this is definitely from Carter-Ruck, who I believe are eminent firm of libel Lawyers, no?


 
Well they were either trying their luck at putting the frighteners on you or don't know the law.


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## LiamO (Nov 16, 2010)

Citizen66 said:


> Well they were either trying their luck at putting the frighteners on you or don't know the law.


 
It wasn't on me it was on Freedom Press...

...and yes I think you can safely surmise it was indeed an attempt to 'put the frighteners on' which relied on the recpients being ignorant of the law and intimidated by the name Carter-Ruck.

Fortunately Freedom had a bit of backbone and a bit of gumption.


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## Citizen66 (Nov 16, 2010)

LiamO said:


> It wasn't on me it was on Freedom Press...



I meant 'you' as in the authors and publishers collectively.


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## love detective (Nov 16, 2010)

Citizen66 said:


> You can't libel the dead.


 
libel lawyers do other things besides libel cases though (albeit this one wasn't particularly good at it - although that may be more to do with the 'information' supplied to them by their client)


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## LiamO (Nov 16, 2010)

Citizen66 said:


> You can't libel the dead.



While we are at it 66... as you seem to know the law...

If a letter from a legal firm has the words 'not for publication' on it does that mean that legally you can't publish it? Or is that more bolloxology from the bolloxologists at Carter-Ruck?

Does that mean I can send people letters with 'not for publication' written across it and they can't 'publish' it?


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## LiamO (Nov 16, 2010)

Citizen66 said:


> I meant 'you' as in the authors and publishers collectively.



Unfortunately I can't claim authorship either


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## revlon (Nov 16, 2010)

LiamO said:


> While we are at it 66... as you seem to know the law...
> 
> If a letter from a legal firm has the words 'not for publication' on it does that mean that legally you can't publish it?


 
er, yeah it means you can't publish it, so if you've got it don't make it public here.


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## love detective (Nov 16, 2010)

===NOT FOR PUBLICATION===

thing is under what law can they enforce this ? 

Isn't the recipient of a letter, the owner of it, and therefore they have the right to decide what to do with it? If someone doesn't want something published they shouldn't send it to someone in the first place no?

If the sender of the lender asserted copyright on the contents of the letter then could it be enforced under that? but if so does that mean people can copyright absolutely anything and assert it? regardless of it's artistic merit/originality etc..  could i copyright this post for example?

Is there any cases in the UK of any successful enforcements of this

(i have copies of the letter as well by the way but I don't think they should be published - but for other reasons)


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## revlon (Nov 16, 2010)

love detective said:


> ===NOT FOR PUBLICATION===
> 
> thing is under what law can they enforce this ?
> 
> ...


 
not sure the context of the letter, but it would be considered a private document between those who wrote it and those who received it - especially if the information enclosed is of a legal nature. Therefore a level of confidentiality is expected, especially if made explicit by one party (and that party being a particularly litigious law firm).

Question is how public is public?


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## Sgt Howie (Nov 16, 2010)

love detective said:


> ===NOT FOR PUBLICATION===
> 
> thing is under what law can they enforce this ?
> 
> ...


 
Sounds like bullshit on their part.


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## Citizen66 (Nov 17, 2010)

love detective said:


> ===NOT FOR PUBLICATION===
> 
> thing is under what law can they enforce this ?
> 
> ...


 
Depends what it is. For instance, when the manuscript for your book was sent off I assume steps had been taken to protect intellectual property rights such as a witness to copyright? 

So if I got the manuscript and decided to sell an abridged version to _Anti-Fascist Weekly_ Magazine (TM) without your say so you could provide evidence of authorship and put a stop to it / sue me for copyright infringement.

I don't know about letters and the such but they do own the copyright to their own words and if they've taken steps to prove they wrote it then I wouldn't be in a rush to republish it elsewhere tbh.

E2a:



> could i copyright this post for example?



You own the intellectual property rights to all of your posts on the internet. But the point is being able to _prove_ you wrote it before anyone else. I'm not sure if Urban's time stamps would stand up in court as it would be argued that they could be tampered with etc.

Everything you need to know is here.


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## jackie 68 (Nov 17, 2010)

Louise,
It would clear things up if you could explain why if someone had just been hit on the way home from the pub Dave ended up on street robbery charges. Also how he ended up with the victims student Library card on him when arrested?

Dave spoke often about the night in the Sporren, the incident with the heavy metal fans at the comedy night benefit for disabled bikers, but never before have I heard anyone link the two incidents not even Steve T who has put forward many different explanations for what took place. I understood the benefit night was months before, sometime around christmas. 
Sorry Louise but Dave didn't tell you the truth, the mugging was out of character, stupid and he was obviously ashamed.


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## trevhagl (Nov 18, 2010)

i looked for the book on the internet and somewhat bizarrely was directed to a nazi site where oddly enough they had posts on saying "Sounds interesting" !!!! True there were a few moans and slag offs of lefties but the authors must be doing something right, you wouldn't get boring intellectual books read by the enemy...


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## Citizen66 (Nov 18, 2010)

Vanity.


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## Demu (Nov 22, 2010)

*Beating tha Fascists...more untold stories*



Louise Purbrick said:


> Response to allegations made about the late Dave Hann in Beating the Fascists: The Untold Story of Anti-Fascist Action published by Freedom Press
> 
> As such, I reject the claims made about Dave in this book. Indeed, I simply do not recognise the portrait painted of the honest man and reliable political activist with whom I shared half my adult life.
> 
> ...


 
If this had been written about the Dave Hann part of the book No Retreat, I would be inclined to agree with her, However it is not, Incredibly It refers to Beating the Facsists. 

No Retreat, in which Louise Purbrick, published writer and academic, is credited by Dave Hann as being the unpaid editor and researcher, stands as a seriously flawed part of the collective historical record. 

These flaws stand quite apart from Hann’s involvement in the mugging of gays, and I note that Louise does not respond to any of the points raised in my previous post, however it is clear from her response to another post that she was deliberately misled by Dave Hann at the time of his arrest, and unsurprisingly Hann immediately puts the blame on poor old Mark (again).

In No Retreat, Hann claims that he joined Red Action in 1984, did 2 years service in London prior to moving to Manchester at the beginning of 1987, where he met Gerry to forge a 10 year political alliance. Many times he re-iterates the 12 years of his life he has given to fighting fascism, only to be betrayed by Red Action.

Manchester 1987 according to Hann is described thus; ‘In contrast to the lively cultural scene, the city seemed to be dead politically. There was almost nothing going on. As a consequence of all this inactivity there was also no permanent anti-fascist organisation. The AFA group that had smashed up the NF in 1985 had faded into oblivion as the anti fascsists became victims of their own success and succumbed to the twin lures of family life and careers. Only a couple of individuals remained active and even these were semi retired’ (No Retreat pages 125, 126)

This is a complete fabrication.

Dave Hann did not appear in Manchester until late 1989. His first known involvement politically was as the Red Action delegate on the Manchester Martyrs Commemoration Committee. There is absolutely no record of any political work carried out by Hann in Manchester between 1987 and 1989, apart from when travelling up with RA for one day events like MMCC and VMDC .

Gerry, who was based in Glasgow, had a working relationship with activists in Manchester through the MMCC and VMDC and the Bands Alliance, only moved to Manchester in mid 1989 followed by Hann in the autumn of 1989. He had not even heard of Dave Hann in 1987, and only met him for the first time at the MMCC in November 1988.
Remarkably the AFA group in Manchester which Hann claims fell apart after Stockport 85, could arguably claim to have been one of, if not the most active AFA branch in the network.

 Manchester AFA from 1985 to 1990 was, alongside Liverpool one of the strongest AFA groups outside of London. It was formed by the squaddists and others who were originally part of the Socialist Federation. 

The period in question from 1987 to 1989, saw Viraj Mendis take refuge in the Church of Ascension in Dec 86 until his arrest by the police in Jan 89. AFA supported the campaign throughout, which involved members sleeping overnight in the church as part of the security rota, and managing the stewarding of the church one day a week. Marches and vigils were held every week, and the campaign ran by the RCG maintained a high profile throughout Viraj’s time in sanctuary. During this time there were many attacks by opposition that AFA was actively involved in dealing with. Alan Payne, the BNP organiser was captured in a sting by AFA members who posed as binmen to offer him the plans to the church so they could attempt a citizens arrest. Another attack by 6 masked men was reported in the Manchester Evening News. AFA’s intervention after this attack had quite remarkable consequences for 2 of the attackers. There was also the strange incident of the ‘friendly fire’ attack, and the planned St Georges day attack thwarted by AFA.

In 1987 and 1988 the Manchester Martyrs Commemorations were to reach their peak, with the march moving out of Longsight and into the town centre complete with eight republican flute bands in the ranks. All the key positions on the Manchester Martyrs Committee were held by AFA members. The march was underwritten by the effectiveness of the stewarding, which after the slipshod debut march in 1981, was put into place by second generation anti fascists, and as a consequence the Commemoration  showed year on year growth, peaking in 1988. The spokesperson for the MMCC and AFA activist was named and shamed by Nicholas Winterton in the House of Commons in Jan of 1989, as the calls for bans, and restrictions on the now hugely successful MM march, began to grow.

AFA were also involved on the ground as Steve T will fondly remember our trip to Mandela Gardens in Leeds. AFA students launched a telephone hotline for reporting fascist activity and race attacks which was the first of its kind and was the fore runner of the national AFA hotline.

That Hann did not know this history is not surprising as he was not there. Hardly politically dead! 

Beating the Fascists tells of a badly organised gig in late 1989 (my recollection is actually 1990) by the newly arrived Hann at the Swinging Sporran with inadequate stewarding. After the arrival of 80 boneheads from the hill towns AFA organised an impromptu mobilisation of 15 stewards. Such was the calibre and determination of these stewards that the 80 bones left quietly when told to go or face the music. 

That such physical force anti fascism was readily available virtually on tap in late 89 belies the picture painted by Hann on his  alleged arrival in 1987. Hann omitted this event from No Retreat. 
It should be noted that the AFA relaunch referred to in No Retreat occurred in 1991.

 So where was Hann between 1987 and1989 if was not in Manchester. He was in London doing his 2 years with RA, which is not in dispute. What is in dispute is when he joined Red Action.

Hann claims that he became active in Red Action in 1984, however he also states that; ‘ I started buying their paper, Red Action, and read a few articles about them in various fanzines, recounting how they had turned over the NF in Islington, Greenwich, Bury St Edmunds, and numerous other places.’ ‘After a couple of months I took the plunge and joined, and although I didn’t know it at the time, the next twelve years of my life would be dominated by the war against the fash.’

According to Beating the Fascists, Bury St Edmunds did not occur until 1986, so for Hann to join some months after this means that the earliest he could have joined RA is late 1986. Red Action put the date of his joining as early 1988 following his attendance on the AFA Cenotaph march of 1987.

There is no evidence to support Hann’s political activity with RA between 1984 and 1987, and likewise there is no evidence to support  Hann’s political activity in Manchester between early 1987 and late 1989. 

Hann’s political career as detailed in No Retreat is a complete fabrication. A forgery. An invented CV to enhance his political profile far greater than his actual achievements would merit and to place him in the context of the political struggle against fascism four years before he became active.

Twelve years as a credible anti fascist now reduces to six years from joining Red Action in 1988 to May or June of 1994 when he is arrested for his part in the mugging of a gay person. 

So what is the purpose of the big lie.

 It is to place Hann in the context of the anti fascist struggle as a veteran who would have been a founding member of AFA in1985, as opposed to someone who joined a fully formed AFA stewards group in early 1988. To take the work of others (Red Action 1984-1987) and present as his own, the very people he dismisses as no longer having the stomach for the fight years later when he has to justify his political retirement.

 Likewise in Manchester he has to dismiss the work of others (Manchester AFA 1985-1990) in order to enhance and embellish what he believes is his finest achievement in single handedly resurrecting AFA in Manchester, by declaring the area politically dead in 1987.

No Retreat by Dave Hann fails to meet the threshold of integrity required to be considered a credible addition to the collective history of anti fascism because it is a forgery. It is a carefully constructed bogus CV, and perhaps as the researcher and editor you can explain how this benefits the fight against fascism. As a published author and academic you understand the historical relevance of giving a true and proper account of events. I look forward to your explanation of why Dave Hann fabricated his political CV, and that you can with no hint of shame, challenge the credibility and historical value of Beating the Fascists The Untold Story.


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## audiotech (Nov 23, 2010)

Anti-fascist Action over the years.


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## audiotech (Nov 23, 2010)

Demu said:


> Long post



Does it serve any purpose dragging this up time and time again? The poor sods dead afterall.


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## Black Widow (Nov 23, 2010)

A message for Louise/Stop sobbing

Wipe the tears from your eyes and start studying the writing style of Urban 75 message boards. Try this.

"I’m not sure what’s worse. Is it Red Action’s book or this thread? It’s all about crowning the kings of anti-fascism. What a sorry state of affairs for last year’s wannabe revolutionaries but collective responsibility was never RA’s strong point.

And the whole Hann thing.  Even by the account in BTF, he was found not guilty of robbing someone who did not declare he was gay to the police or prosecution. This has been spun out for far too long. 

Then there’s Carter-Ruck. Stop whining like toddlers made to share a toy. Wasn’t it this law firm that IWCA used to sue the Labour Party? Check this

http://www.carter-ruck.com/Miscellaneous/?page=40

If you give it out you should be able to take it. Careful that crown doesn’t slip down your face. 

You get the hang of it. Say something nasty, click the submit button and do a sad little victory dance in front of the screen."


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## LiamO (Nov 23, 2010)

Once more, I suggest you adress that question to the person who keeps bringing his name up, who hired carter-Ruck to try and stop this book being published and is (apparently) presently sitting on her own manuscript of another book 'written' by the late Mr Hann.


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## audiotech (Nov 23, 2010)

LiamO said:


> Once more, I suggest you adress that question to the person who keeps bringing his name up, who hired carter-Ruck to try and stop this book being published and is (apparently) presently sitting on her own manuscript on another book 'written' by the late Mr Hann.



Another book! Likely to run and run then.


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## Deareg (Nov 23, 2010)

LiamO said:


> Once more, I suggest you adress that question to the person who keeps bringing his name up, who hired carter-Ruck to try and stop this book being published and is (apparently) presently sitting on her own manuscript on another book 'written' by the late Mr Hann.


 
Louise has made 2 posts so I don't think that it is her who keeps on bringing his name up


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## love detective (Nov 23, 2010)

well we've heard from her lawyers again today on this very topic (ironically alleging that various inaccuracies are present in BTF in relation to Mr Hann)


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## Sgt Howie (Nov 23, 2010)

love detective said:


> well we've heard from her lawyers again today on this very topic (ironically alleging that various inaccuracies are present in BTF in relation to Mr Hann)


 
Sounds like she's just throwing good money after bad given that you can't libel the dead?


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## trevhagl (Nov 24, 2010)

well i got it but she'll not let me have it till Chrimbo , saw the type size though, fucking hell no wonder i couldn't get a straight answer! Book looks great apart from that though


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## LiamO (Nov 24, 2010)

trevhagl said:


> well i got it but she'll not let me have it till Chrimbo



Are you 12, Trev? Or are you just hoping she'll dress up as Santa to deliver it?


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## trevhagl (Nov 24, 2010)

LiamO said:


> Are you 12, Trev? Or are you just hoping she'll dress up as Santa to deliver it?


 
heh heh, i can have THAT before Chrimbo


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## The39thStep (Nov 24, 2010)

I was reminded the other day that Nick Lowles was once an AFA member , in Leeds, before being exposed as a Searchie.


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## Joe Reilly (Nov 25, 2010)

The39thStep said:


> I was reminded the other day that Nick Lowles was once an AFA member , in Leeds, before being exposed as a Searchie.



Not sure Nick Lowles was ever an actual member per se. though Leeds AFA, at an organiser level was not only 'Searchie' it was, as AFA, discovered a Searchie dynasty, with the baton being passed on when the incumbent went on to other things.


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## LiamO (Nov 25, 2010)

Anyways.... looking forward to this book-launch party 

I fished out a favourite old ballgown the other day ( I didn't like to buy a new Designer one as some of the horrible Oiks in attendance might be jealous). Sadly I may have to have it 'let out' a little, but the stillettos still fit like a glass slipper.


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## miktheword (Nov 26, 2010)

LiamO said:


> Anyways.... looking forward to this book-launch party
> 
> I fished out a favourite old ballgown the other day ( I didn't like to buy a new Designer one as some of the horrible Oiks in attendance might be jealous). Sadly I may have to have it 'let out' a little, but the stillettos still fit like a glass slipper.


 
looking forward to it as well. Still don't know what to wear. I always took stick for the sharpness of my threads, amongst many other things, all quite legitimate. Giving the 'Just for Men' an outing, cos 'the best is yet to come.'. Can still get into the stuff that I adorned fifteen years ago. The scouse git should be down, obviously re-stating that they started the whole casual dresser thing and asking me if  Joe R is still wearing that green flight jacket.


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## LiamO (Nov 26, 2010)

miktheword said:


> Joe R is still wearing that green flight jacket.


 
Come, come, dear boy... the flight jacket was, like, sooooooooo 1980's. JR always had his own version of sartorial eloquence and carried it off flawlessly... as CJ was oft wont to relate... and Carl definitely had style...


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## The39thStep (Nov 26, 2010)

Joe Reilly said:


> Not sure Nick Lowles was ever an actual member per se. though Leeds AFA, at an organiser level was not only 'Searchie' it was, as AFA, discovered a Searchie dynasty, with the baton being passed on when the incumbent went on to other things.


 
Cheers Joe.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Nov 26, 2010)

LiamO said:


> Come, come, dear boy... the flight jacket was, like, sooooooooo 1980's. JR always had his own version of sartorial eloquence and carried it off flawlessly... as CJ was oft wont to relate... and Carl definitely had style...



When I met JR, style is not how I would describe his look...


----------



## love detective (Nov 26, 2010)

I went to a different hair cutting shop a few years ago and the woman asked me what kind of style I wanted so I said just the same kind of style as it is at the moment, she looked confused, took a few steps back and surveyed me from various angles and then said, but it's not in any style at the moment sir


----------



## past caring (Nov 26, 2010)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> When I met JR, style is not how I would describe his look...









Stones, glasshouses, etc......



love detective said:


> I went to a different *hair cutting shop* a few years ago and the woman asked me what kind of style I wanted so I said just the same kind of style as it is at the moment, she looked confused, took a few steps back and surveyed me from various angles and then said, but it's not in any style at the moment sir



It's a barbers you'll be wanting then.


----------



## past caring (Nov 26, 2010)

love detective said:


> I went to a different hair cutting shop a few years ago and the woman asked me what kind of style I wanted so I said just the same kind of style as it is at the moment, she looked confused, took a few steps back and surveyed me from various angles and then said, but it's not in any style at the moment sir


 
Anyway, that's still some way better than my last visit to a "hair cutting shop" - I got re-directed to the tattooist's next door to get a rabbit tattooed on my head.


----------



## Fedayn (Nov 26, 2010)

past caring said:


> Anyway, that's still some way better than my last visit to a "hair cutting shop" - I got re-directed to the tattooist's next door to get a rabbit tattooed on my head.


 
Will anyone supply the punchline.......???


----------



## trevhagl (Nov 26, 2010)

miktheword said:


> looking forward to it as well. Still don't know what to wear. I always took stick for the sharpness of my threads, amongst many other things, all quite legitimate. Giving the 'Just for Men' an outing, cos 'the best is yet to come.'. Can still get into the stuff that I adorned fifteen years ago. The scouse git should be down, obviously re-stating that they started the whole casual dresser thing and asking me if  Joe R is still wearing that green flight jacket.


 
well I certainly am Oi! Oi!


----------



## trevhagl (Nov 26, 2010)

love detective said:


> I went to a different hair cutting shop a few years ago and the woman asked me what kind of style I wanted so I said just the same kind of style as it is at the moment, she looked confused, took a few steps back and surveyed me from various angles and then said, but it's not in any style at the moment sir


 
you need a proper blokes cut, £17 shears 4 years ago done about 200 haircuts and still going strong


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Nov 26, 2010)

past caring said:


> Stones, glasshouses, etc......
> 
> 
> 
> It's a barbers you'll be wanting then.


 
Helly Hansen jacket.


----------



## trevhagl (Nov 27, 2010)

LiamO said:


> Come, come, dear boy... the flight jacket was, like, sooooooooo 1980's. JR always had his own version of sartorial eloquence and carried it off flawlessly... as CJ was oft wont to relate... and Carl definitely had style...


 
i have a green one AND a burgundy one!! Oi Oi!


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 27, 2010)

Fedayn said:


> Will anyone supply the punchline.......???


 
He's called Warren?


----------



## past caring (Nov 27, 2010)

No you plum, it would look like a hare from a distance.


----------



## love detective (Nov 27, 2010)

I was going to ask what business you had in the hair cutting shop 

There was a review of the book in the latest issue of Freedom - scanned copy of it here (PDF)


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 27, 2010)

past caring said:


> No you plum, it would look like a hare from a distance.


----------



## LiamO (Dec 1, 2010)

Nigel Irritable said:


> It took you 400 pages to cover 15 years of Red Action having punchups with fascists.





Nigel Irritable said:


> I didn't say anything much about the Red Action book. If you really want an assessment of it here's one for you:
> 
> Some moderately interesting historical detail and a few interesting but not very worked out political arguments, surrounded by far too much tedious hooligan-lit machismo.
> 
> (Now watch as the usual crowd of embittered middle aged men have a collective prolapse from sheer rage.)



Personally I see these comments of yet one more example of a prissy lefty bending reality to suit his theory - once more in direct contradiction of the empiricism and indeed the marxism he would profess.

Others may consider them fair comment. I would be interested in exploring the rationale behind that kind of view - if it can be done in any way respectfully - but suspect that would prove far beyond Mr Irritating. Anyone else care to take up his dropped baton?


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 1, 2010)

LiamO said:


> Personally I see these comments of yet one more example of a prissy lefty bending reality to suit his theory - once more in direct contradiction of the empiricism and indeed the marxism he would profess.
> 
> Others may consider them fair comment. I would be interested in the exploring rationale behind that kind of view - if it can be done in any way respectfully - but suspect that would prove far beyond Mr Irritating. Anyone else care to take up his dropped baton?



I am bit put off on his age-ism as well


----------



## LiamO (Dec 1, 2010)

The39thStep said:


> I am bit put off on his age-ism as well



Yes, rather old chap. Damned young whipper-snappers.

I also suspect that actually meeting, in real life, any of the 'embittered middle aged men' he refers to would indeed induce an instant prolapse in young Nigel.


----------



## articul8 (Dec 1, 2010)

> Actually, Joe, my view that the book is overstuffed with hooligan-lit cliches of the "Dave landed one on the big skinhead so hard he fell back on top of two his mates" / "they looked a tasty crew" variety has precisely fuck all to do with my views of AFA or of physical force anti-fascism in general. The way in which the book glories in associations with "old school villains" (ie anti-working class parasites) isn't exactly attractive either.



I can appreciate that it might not be the worst example of this kind of writing, but I'm reading the book now and know exactly what he means.  I know that there were/are some serious people involved in this tradition.  But there is a macho-hobbyistic element to the enthusiasm that comes out too.


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## Nigel Irritable (Dec 1, 2010)

LiamO said:


> I also suspect that actually meeting, in real life, any of the 'embittered middle aged men' he refers to would indeed induce an instant prolapse in young Nigel.



Strangely enough, a recurring theme in the book is that those who politically disagree with Red Action are found wanting when it comes to physical confrontation. It might be suggested that this fixation says more about the people casting the aspersions than they perhaps intended.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Dec 1, 2010)

What I said in the other thread:




			
				me said:
			
		

> ...There are also problems with it, and one of those problem is that the political arguments are often buried in page after page of hooligan-lit descriptions of winning fights against "tasty crews" and some fascist skinhead "taking a kicking". I can understand why some of that stuff is in there, but it gets very tiresome after a while. Another problem I had with it was the mostly positive portrayal of both "old school villains" and apolitical or semi-political football hooligans, more stuff which is pretty common in the hooligan-lit genre but which is a bit bizarre in a political context.



What an (overwhelmingly postive) review just posted on Freedom's own site says:




			
				Freedom site said:
			
		

> If you want to read it for the violence it competes well with any of the Cass Pennant [West Ham hooligan and author] pulp but really that would be a waste. A waste of all the blood (and there is lots) and sweat that was lost in the making of this book.


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## Citizen66 (Dec 1, 2010)

A book about violently opposing the far right has lots about violence in the narrative shocker.


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## The39thStep (Dec 2, 2010)

If we could create an alternative history I wonder what Nigel's strategy would have been had he been in England in the same period that AFA operated?


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Dec 2, 2010)

The accounts of violence may well jar with readers (and titilate them) in direct proportion to thier distance from that violence. For those involved in the physical confrontation, an account of AFA without it, and an account that didn't take some pride in such an effectively employed tactic, wouldn't be credible.

Louis (and before anybody else says it an arm chair warrior) MacNeice


----------



## trevhagl (Dec 2, 2010)

Actually, Joe, my view that the book is overstuffed with hooligan-lit cliches of the "Dave landed one on the big skinhead so hard he fell back on top of two his mates" / "they looked a tasty crew" variety has precisely fuck all to do with my views of AFA or of physical force anti-fascism in general. The way in which the book glories in associations with "old school villains" (ie anti-working class parasites) isn't exactly attractive either. 


dunno who wrote the above but i bet it's a fuck of a lot more interesting than boring academic posturing , roll on Xmas!!


----------



## Blagsta (Dec 2, 2010)

I do find the uncritical portrayal of Dessie Noonan a bit odd, given RA's stance on drug dealers.  I'm sure he was a handy comrade, but he was also someone involved in anti-social and anti-working class crime.


----------



## Fedayn (Dec 2, 2010)

Louis MacNeice said:


> The accounts of violence may well jar with readers (and titilate them) in direct proportion to thier distance from that violence. For those involved in the physical confrontation, an account of AFA without it, and an account that didn't take some pride in such an effectively employed tactic, wouldn't be credible.
> 
> Louis (and before anybody else says it an arm chair warrior) MacNeice



Quite, what is also at odds with Nigels criticisms is the habit of the Militant leadership in 1993 of actually applauding and basking in the activities of the Away Team (until it wasn't politic) and others such as the constant references to the Brick Lane mobilisation and even going as far as rather crude computer generated graphics at the Wembley Arena Rally in 1993 showing an 'anti fascist fist' punching into a building to highlight the May 8th Demo. The rather internally critical remarks aimed at Lynn Walsh, by some in the leadership of the then ML, who at a meeting the night before the May 8th demo, opined that 'we're not here for a punch up'.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 2, 2010)

Blagsta said:


> I do find the uncritical portrayal of Dessie Noonan a bit odd, given RA's stance on drug dealers.  I'm sure he was a handy comrade, but he was also someone involved in anti-social and anti-working class crime.


 
How sure are you that Dessie was a drug dealer and that he was involved in anti social and anti working class crime Blagsta? If you have evidence that he was then at what stage and to what degree?


----------



## Blagsta (Dec 2, 2010)

are you trying to say he wasn't a gangster?


----------



## Blagsta (Dec 2, 2010)

i'm only going by what's available on the net btw. I never knew the man. If you're telling me he wasn't a gangster then fine, but there's a lot more people saying he was. Some discussion of this issue in the book wouldn't have gone amiss imo


----------



## Demu (Dec 2, 2010)

Blagsta said:


> are you trying to say he wasn't a gangster?



Are you trying to say that his involvement in anti fascism over 20 years should not be aired? Perhaps you have been watching too many Donal MacIntyre programmes.


----------



## dennisr (Dec 2, 2010)

Fedayn said:


> Quite, what is also at odds with Nigels criticisms is the habit of the Militant leadership in 1993 of actually applauding and basking in the activities of the Away Team


 
were we in the same organisation?


----------



## Demu (Dec 2, 2010)

Blagsta said:


> i'm only going by what's available on the net btw. I never knew the man. If you're telling me he wasn't a gangster then fine, but there's a lot more people saying he was. Some discussion of this issue in the book wouldn't have gone amiss imo



What else is it you want to know?


----------



## Blagsta (Dec 2, 2010)

nothing in particular. Just saying that a i found the book a little lacking in self criticism/analysis. Overall i enjoyed it though and agree with the main thrust of the argument


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Dec 2, 2010)

Louis MacNeice said:


> The accounts of violence may well jar with readers (and titilate them) in direct proportion to thier distance from that violence. For those involved in the physical confrontation, an account of AFA without it, and an account that didn't take some pride in such an effectively employed tactic, wouldn't be credible.



The problem is not that the book contains violence. It's that it contains a huge amount of violence described in "hooligan lit" cliches, old battle stories about "tasty crews" and the like. Perhaps the purpose of this was to shift more copies to people like trevhagl.


----------



## Fedayn (Dec 2, 2010)

dennisr said:


> were we in the same organisation?


 
Cheeky....

I should add upto a few years later. I would say that the decisions taken regarding what the AT did on the demo in Dover in late 1997 marked a notable change in how the AT was viewed and what it's 'job' was. It was most certainly a departure from what it's role was seen as previously. Whether or not that had been slowly changing down south previous to that demo I don't know. But the attitude of the leadership was certainly very different in 1993 as compared to 1997.


----------



## love detective (Dec 2, 2010)

Nigel Irritable said:


> The problem is not that the book contains violence. It's that it contains a huge amount of violence described in "hooligan lit" cliches, old battle stories about "tasty crews" and the like. Perhaps the purpose of this was to shift more copies to people like trevhagl.


 
what kind of language would you see as being acceptable to describe said violence then?


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## LiamO (Dec 2, 2010)

Demu said:


> What else is it you want to know?



I was gonna post in answer to Blagsta, but you (as a manchester veteran) are the ideal person to do that Demu. 

A little clarification/history might not go amiss which could be both honouring to Dessie's 20-odd year career as a committed anti-fascist activist, whilst not shying away from his 'day-job' (and how that evolved in line with social change).


----------



## LiamO (Dec 2, 2010)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Perhaps the purpose of this was to shift more copies to people like trevhagl.



I would hate for you to accuse me of jumping to conclusions or of putting words into your mouth, so in order to facilitate my response to this comment...

... could you please explain _specifically_ what you mean by the phrase *'people like trevhagl'*, 

... because at the moment they do not exactly paint you in a flattering light.


----------



## trevhagl (Dec 2, 2010)

LiamO said:


> I would hate for you to accuse me of jumping to conclusions or of putting words into your mouth, so in order to facilitate my response to this comment...
> 
> ... could you please explain _specifically_ what you mean by the phrase *'people like trevhagl'*,
> 
> ... because at the moment they do not exactly paint you in a flattering light.


 
he means people who buy books because they expect them to be interesting, not full of pretentious long winded intellectual twaddle and theory


----------



## dennisr (Dec 2, 2010)

nah, he means folk like vivian and rick from the young ones


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## The39thStep (Dec 2, 2010)

Blagsta said:


> are you trying to say he wasn't a gangster?


 
I am trying to get you to say what your sources are for the allegation of being a drug dealer and involved in anti social and anti working class crime . ( sorry , you have - the internet!)


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Dec 2, 2010)

trevhagl said:


> he means people who buy books because they expect them to be interesting, not full of pretentious long winded intellectual twaddle and theory



People who like books in large type


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 2, 2010)

Nigel Irritable said:


> The problem is not that the book contains violence. It's that it contains a huge amount of violence described in "hooligan lit" cliches, old battle stories about "tasty crews" and the like. Perhaps the purpose of this was to shift more copies to people like trevhagl.


 
Then again perhaps the purpose of it is to tell it like it was . 

What amazes me about your response ( although to be quite honest nothing would really amaze me , and I am sure other posters on here,  about you) is that you have no response to the actual politics the book advocates. Perhaps you agreed with the content but just didn't like the style?


----------



## LiamO (Dec 2, 2010)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Perhaps the purpose of this was to shift more copies to people like trevhagl.



Perhaps it means uncouth, working class, oiky types who may like to engage in, nay celebrate even, their unkempt appearance, poor table manners, outrageous drinking habits and general yobbishness - I have heard some of them even like _football_ (that's soccer, not proper rugby football of course).


----------



## dennisr (Dec 2, 2010)

LiamO said:


> Perhaps it means uncouth, working class, oiky types who may like to engage in, nay celebrate even, their unkempt appearance, poor table manners, outrageous drinking habits and general yobbishness - I have heard some of them even like _football_ (that's soccer, not proper rugby football of course).


 
awww, trev - see - someone loves you (or a stereotype of you)


----------



## past caring (Dec 2, 2010)

Perhaps we should leave it to nigel to tell us what stereotype he was thinking of, eh dennis?


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Dec 2, 2010)

LiamO said:


> I would hate for you to accuse me of jumping to conclusions or of putting words into your mouth, so in order to facilitate my response to this comment...
> 
> ... could you please explain _specifically_ what you mean by the phrase *'people like trevhagl'*,
> 
> ... because at the moment they do not exactly paint you in a flattering light.



I mean fucking idiots. And in particular fucking idiots who don't like political books to be weighted too much towards politics. You prolier-than-thou gobshite.


----------



## past caring (Dec 2, 2010)

Scum from the estates.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 2, 2010)

past caring said:


> Scum from the estates.


 
LOL. Who wear their violence on their sleeves.


----------



## dennisr (Dec 2, 2010)

past caring said:


> Perhaps we should leave it to nigel to tell us what stereotype he was thinking of, eh dennis?


 
I'm more interested in how trev feels about the perception of his online character


----------



## TopCat (Dec 2, 2010)

dennisr said:


> I'm more interested in how trev feels about the perception of his online character


 
He is a font obsessive.


----------



## dennisr (Dec 2, 2010)

TopCat said:


> He is a font obsessive.


 
ba dum tish


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Dec 2, 2010)

The39thStep said:


> Then again perhaps the purpose of it is to tell it like it was .
> 
> What amazes me about your response ( although to be quite honest nothing would really amaze me , and I am sure other posters on here,  about you) is that you have no response to the actual politics the book advocates. Perhaps you agreed with the content but just didn't like the style?



I've only started talking about the book.

The first thing that's noticeable about it is that large sections of it are written in tedious "hooligan lit" cliches. So far the responses to me pointing this out started with claims that I was wrong and have since shifted into accepting that ok, that may be so, but it's justified to do it that way. You could certainly argue that this presentation reflects politically on the organisation, at least in so far as swaggering braggadocio can be considered political.

I've so far gone on to to mention two more issues. 

Firstly, that the book also regularly seems to equate the willingness to engage in fistfights and competence at brawling with moral fibre and political sense. Those who politically disagree with Red Action are over and over again revelealed as cowards and weaklings and wordy posturers as opposed to the manly men of Red Action. All of which reeks of adolescent wish fulfillment. This sort of thing isn't just a fixation of the writer, it seems to cover much of the Red Action scene - LiamO's response to criticism earlier in this thread was to give it some keyboard-warrior bollocks about how I'd back down if I had to meet his middle aged friends. Because of course their alleged ability to physically intimidate me would make their views correct.

Secondly, the book takes an uncritical, indeed at times openly admiring, approach to anti-working class parasites when it comes to "old school villains". Presumably said parasites are "hard" enough to impress the writer or because he thinks some toughness will rub off by association. Not just Noonan either, just read the lengthy anecdote about Peter Davies, a "villain of the old school" according to the book. A related but much less significant issue is its approach to apolitical or semi-political football hooligans.

I've plenty more to say about the book. Much of it positive. But lets stick to the negative parts for now. At least it'll give me some entertainment watching the terminally thin-skinned froth with rage. As always, the defining feature of RA/IWCA supporters is that they love to dish out criticism but border on emotional meltdown should anybody return the favour.


----------



## past caring (Dec 2, 2010)

But again, at steps says, nothing about the politics the book advocates and the merits of those politics.

What it boils down to is;

- a dislike of the writing style (though I'd be interested to know which "hooligan lit" books nigel has actually read, just so we can be sure he actually knows what he's talking about on this one) in those passages which actually describe the details of the violence. I reject the assertion that these make up "large sections" of the book and to be frank, I'm not sure what nigel would want here - some sort of literary equivalent to a Peckinpah job?

- an assertion that RA equated being handy with having the better politics. A concrete example of this being proposed in the book would be useful, if nigel intends anyone to treat that assertion seriously.

- a distaste for some of the people AFA associated with or who joined AFA. I'll leave others who actually knew Dessie Noonan to speak about him (though I've no doubt nigel will be able to put some flesh on the bones of his "anti-working class parasite" jibe) and simply ask that he expand on quite what he objects to in the book's approach to "apolitical or semi-political football hooligans". Some specifics, like. Because so far, all we have is bluster.


----------



## trevhagl (Dec 2, 2010)

Nigel Irritable said:


> I mean fucking idiots. And in particular fucking idiots who don't like political books to be weighted too much towards politics. You prolier-than-thou gobshite.


 
LiamO attempts sarcasm and fails miserably because there really are stuck up elitist cunts on the board that it's impossible to be worse than, even in satire


----------



## trevhagl (Dec 2, 2010)

Nigel Irritable said:


> I've only started talking about the book.
> 
> The first thing that's noticeable about it is that large sections of it are written in tedious "hooligan lit" cliches. So far the responses to me pointing this out started with claims that I was wrong and have since shifted into accepting that ok, that may be so, but it's justified to do it that way. You could certainly argue that this presentation reflects politically on the organisation, at least in so far as swaggering braggadocio can be considered political.
> 
> ...


 
for volume 2 can we have a book about nice anti fascists who ask the nazis if they would mind refraining from participation in activities likely to cause harm or distress to homo sapiens of an ethnic persuasion.

There, i too can talk wanker-speak, aren't i clever


----------



## dennisr (Dec 2, 2010)

trevhagl said:


> i too can talk wanker-speak


 
yep, but he knows that already mate 

(come on - you have to admit - you walked into that one)


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Dec 2, 2010)

past caring said:


> But again, at steps says, nothing about the politics the book advocates and the merits of those politics.



I think quite a lot of what I've mentioned so far is political. It's more the politics implicit in the book's approach that I've mentioned so far, but there's plenty of time to get around to the more directly voiced arguments.

By the way, the extreme shitness of the index is a bit of a problem when it comes to finding things in it. It took me fifteen minutes to find the anecdote about Davies. At least it has an index I suppose. Noonan, Davies. Reread what the book says about them. Can you find a political explanation of what an "old school villain" actually is and does beyond apparently being a tough lad who's handy to have around and who illustrates the outlaw hardness of his mates? You don't think there's something else it might be important to say about the social role of gangsters?

Are you seriously telling me that the book doesn't repeatedly portray anyone who disagrees with RA as some combination of dishonest/cowardly/middle class/all talk/incompetent/no good in a fight? It's one of the recurring themes. And it's downright adolescent.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 2, 2010)

I was was never a member of Red Action and actually stayed with the SWP when they were expelled ( I joined in 1977 and stayed untill the mid 90s ) . Despite political differences I never experienced Red Action in the way Nigel describes them as being phyiscally threatening to those who disagreed with them politically .In fact quite the opposite . Nigel would have us believe that Red Action were somehow politically light . Not the case at all . In fact free from the prison of Totskyist formula they were actually politically challenging.  I moved from NW London to Manchester in the  late 80s and had exactly the same relationship with members of Red Action and AFA in Manchester. They argued their politics, I argued mine. where we could cooperate we did, where we disagreed we disagreed. I must say that wasn't my experience of with Militant but perhaps the ones I met went to the same political day schools as Nigel.


----------



## past caring (Dec 2, 2010)

Nigel Irritable said:


> I think quite a lot of what I've mentioned so far is political.



Do you? That's probably why most think of you as a bit of a lightweight when it comes to anything other than lefty sectariana.



> It's more the politics implicit in the book's approach that I've mentioned so far, but there's plenty of time to get around to the more directly voiced arguments.



What are these politics that are implicit in the book's approach? Why have you got such great difficulty stating _explicitly_ what they are and why they are wrong?



> By the way, the extreme shitness of the index is a bit of a problem when it comes to finding things in it. It took me fifteen minutes to find the anecdote about Davies. At least it has an index I suppose. Noonan, Davies. Reread what the book says about them. Can you find a political explanation of what an "old school villain" actually is and does beyond apparently being a tough lad who's handy to have around and who illustrates the outlaw hardness of his mates? You don't think there's something else it might be important to say about the social role of gangsters?



I don't have the book in front of me (have just moved and shelves are not yet up to allow me to unpack books) but my recollection of the story regarding Davies is that he figures once - and that almost by accident - as someone who a couple of AFA members happened to be sharing digs with when those digs came under attack. I don't see anything to indicate any ongoing relationship and, as such, no reason to elaborate on his activities as an "old school villain". 



> Are you seriously telling me that the book doesn't repeatedly portray anyone who disagrees with RA as some combination of dishonest/cowardly/middle class/all talk/incompetent/no good in a fight? It's one of the recurring themes. *And it's downright adolescent.*



Is it? A good place to begin your reply might be taking particular disagreements and showing where others were right and RA was wrong.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 2, 2010)

ra politically light? what nonsense!


----------



## Citizen66 (Dec 2, 2010)

past caring said:


> (though I'd be interested to know which "hooligan lit" books nigel has actually read, just so we can be sure he actually knows what he's talking about on this one)



I was going to point out exactly the same thing! He must hate hooligan cliches that much because he's already masturbated over enough of them for them to become... cliches.  

They aren't cliches to people who don't ordinarily read those kinds of books. Revealing.


----------



## LiamO (Dec 2, 2010)

trevhagl said:


> LiamO attempts sarcasm and fails miserably because there really are stuck up elitist cunts on the board that it's impossible to be worse than, even in satire



A bit confused Trev? You do know I was taking the piss out of Nigel, not you? 

Btw his eventual answer to my question...



LiamO said:


> I would hate for you to accuse me of jumping to conclusions or of putting words into your mouth, so in order to facilitate my response to this comment...
> 
> ... could you please explain _specifically_ what you mean by the phrase *'people like trevhagl'*,
> 
> ... because at the moment they do not exactly paint you in a flattering light.







Nigel Irritable said:


> I mean fucking idiots. And in particular fucking idiots who don't like political books to be weighted too much towards politics. You prolier-than-thou gobshite.



is every bit as illustrative of his pretentions and prejudices as I thought it would be when I asked him for clarification.


----------



## LiamO (Dec 2, 2010)

Nigel Irritable said:


> LiamO's response to criticism earlier in this thread was to give it some keyboard-warrior bollocks about how I'd back down if I had to meet his middle aged friends. Because of course their alleged ability to physically intimidate me would make their views correct.



I was not responding to 'criticism' (and most definitely not to any _political_ 'criticism').

I was responding to your flouncy, Student Grant-style pissiness - and pointing out that if you adopted a similar 'debating style' to the people involved face to face you would get short shrift. In fact if you acted like that in _any_ boozer I've ever drank in, you would not last pissing time. 

But then you are possibly a much more pleasant individual in person and they would be content to just rip your 'argument' to pieces.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Dec 2, 2010)

The delightful posturing of middle aged "hard men". LiamO, if you didn't exist someone would have to invent you. As for you, Past Caring, I'm unaware of ever reading a significant political contribution from you on any subject, so it's difficult for me to assess how "heavyweight" you are.

Now if you lads are quite done with the personal jibes, perhaps we can get on to the political content sandwiched between the "tasty crew" nonsense in the book?


----------



## past caring (Dec 2, 2010)

More stalling.


----------



## LiamO (Dec 2, 2010)

I have never claimed to be a "hard man". Not once. Not on the Internet. Not in real life. I do however talk to people on the Internet exactly how I talk to them in person - ie always with an appropriate amount of _reciprocal_ respect.  

I struggle to comprehend why a little everyday canteen or high stool talk has your prissy knickers in such a twist.

Why not answer the point which has now been alluded to by three or four people... just how many hoolie-lit books have you actually read?


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Dec 2, 2010)

past caring said:


> More stalling.


 
Entertaining coming from a supporter of an organisation which took about 40 posts of arsey bluster to get around to answering some simple questions about its current prospects, why it has declined and what its future strategy is with "we don't know".


----------



## Demu (Dec 2, 2010)

Nigel Irritable said:


> I've only started talking about the book.
> 
> Secondly, the book takes an uncritical, indeed at times openly admiring, approach to anti-working class parasites when it comes to "old school villains". Presumably said parasites are "hard" enough to impress the writer or because he thinks some toughness will rub off by association. Not just Noonan either, just read the lengthy anecdote about Peter Davies, a "villain of the old school" according to the book. A related but much less significant issue is its approach to apolitical or semi-political football hooligans.


 
Nigel,

I think the book attempts to say what happened, who was involved and where they came from. It has been described as history from below, which I think is a fair comment. You can draw your own conclusions from the book, which you are entitled to do  so after buying it.

For the record, Dessie Noonan was a friend of mine for many years and he was actively involved against the far right to my knowledge from around 81/82 until certainly 2002. He is a part of working class anti fascist history in Manchester which is why he is in the book.

I think you should finish reading the book before commenting further, then you can give us the full benefit of your take on it.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Dec 2, 2010)

Demu said:


> For the record, Dessie Noonan was a friend of mine for many years and he was actively involved against the far right to my knowledge from around 81/82 until certainly 2002. He is a part of working class anti fascist history in Manchester which is why he is in the book.


 
I have no objection to him being in the book at all. He was there, he was part of it, he belongs in the book.

I object to the lack of political comment about the social role of "old school" gangsters (not just Noonan) who are otherwise presented in an overwhelmingly positive light.


----------



## Blagsta (Dec 2, 2010)

Demu said:


> Nigel,
> 
> I think the book attempts to say what happened, who was involved and where they came from. It has been described as history from below, which I think is a fair comment. You can draw your own conclusions from the book, which you are entitled to do  so after buying it.
> 
> ...



He had a certain reputation though.  Was there no basis to it?  Did he change his ways through politics?  Sounds like there's an interesting story there.


----------



## Demu (Dec 2, 2010)

Blagsta said:


> He had a certain reputation though.  Was there no basis to it?  Did he change his ways through politics?  Sounds like there's an interesting story there.


 
Of course he had a reputation, and clearly it was not without foundation. However knowing the man as I did, I have yet to read anything on the internet that captures the measure or the intensity of the man.

Why would he change his ways through politics. He had standards, always did have. Dessie's notoriety was based on his alleged involvement with a series of daring armed robberies throughout the 80's. His involvement in anti fascism well known and highly productive during the same period.

I would certainly disregard most if not all of what appeared on the MacIntyre documentary in respect of Dessie.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Dec 2, 2010)

Nigel Irritable said:


> The problem is not that the book contains violence. It's that it contains a huge amount of violence described in "hooligan lit" cliches, old battle stories about "tasty crews" and the like. Perhaps the purpose of this was to shift more copies to people like trevhagl.



The book is a previously unwritten anti-fascist history, warts and all. This is what actually happened. Accordingly there can be no cliches. Earlier you described it as "bizarre" that "old-school villians" are involved in the book at all. Actually there is only one (or mayBe two) that I remember being described in that way. In any event why is that so extraordinary to you? 

Have you fallen for the BBC/establishment propaganda that all anti-fascists look like Harry Potter and have done so since the '30's, or is that you and all your comrades carry a vague resemblance to him. and therefore regard the involvement of social strata other than the nerdy circles you move in as shocking? 

Your lot do 'revolutionary politics' while the rougher end of the market should confine themselves to football hooliganism, bank robbery, beer glass brawling or possibly drug dealing. Is that it? If this is the case, then at best, as well as being a bit of snob, you are remarkably naive. The rougher end of the market has always been involved in radical politics. The core of the 43 Group was made up of 300 ex- commandos. The CP in the 30's was as least as well organised and aggressive as the BUF: 'we knew where to put the razors in the potatoes'. It is only the liberal left who like to pretend that it only the fascists who are low born and violent. 

Unlike many on the Left who are too sensitised to violence AFA comes from that tradition. And make no apology for it. You clearly find that objectionable. Vulgar even. Yet you still call yourself a revolutionary? 

It all reminds of a story told by Robert Duvall about Vanessa Redgrave. He asked her if she really believed in the violent overthrow of the state. 'Yes' she replied. 'You mean you are prepared to kill people?' he asks. 'Oh no!' she replies clearly horrified. _'Other people would do that'!_ Duvall laughed and walked away.


----------



## Citizen66 (Dec 2, 2010)

The only thing bad about bank robbery is holding a gun up to a prole's face.


----------



## Demu (Dec 2, 2010)

Citizen66 said:


> The only thing bad about bank robbery is holding a gun up to a prole's face.



Who said bank robbery?


----------



## Blagsta (Dec 2, 2010)

Demu said:


> Of course he had a reputation, and clearly it was not without foundation. However knowing the man as I did, I have yet to read anything on the internet that captures the measure or the intensity of the man.
> 
> Why would he change his ways through politics. He had standards, always did have. Dessie's notoriety was based on his alleged involvement with a series of daring armed robberies throughout the 80's. His involvement in anti fascism well known and highly productive during the same period.
> 
> I would certainly disregard most if not all of what appeared on the MacIntyre documentary in respect of Dessie.



Do you think he was involved with drug dealing?


----------



## Demu (Dec 2, 2010)

Blagsta said:


> Do you think he was involved with drug dealing?



No , but I am.....what you after?


----------



## Blagsta (Dec 2, 2010)

Demu said:


> No , but I am.....what you after?


 
I'm not "after" anything.  I was asking a question.  I've seen allegations on the net that he was involved.  I wondered what you thought of them.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Dec 2, 2010)

Demu said:


> No , but I am.....what you after?




LOL!


----------



## Citizen66 (Dec 2, 2010)

Demu said:


> Who said bank robbery?


 
Fair enough. "Armed robbery" makes me think of harassed cashiers or Securicor/Group 4 workers though.


----------



## Demu (Dec 2, 2010)

Blagsta said:


> I'm not "after" anything.  I was asking a question.  I've seen allegations on the net that he was involved.  I wondered what you thought of them.



I understand where you are going with this. There is nothing I can tell you. Try asking about the murders.


----------



## Demu (Dec 2, 2010)

Citizen66 said:


> Fair enough. "Armed robbery" makes me think of harassed cashiers or Securicor/Group 4 workers though.



I think occupational hazard for Securicor/Group 4.


----------



## Blagsta (Dec 2, 2010)

Demu said:


> I understand where you are going with this. There is nothing I can tell you. Try asking about the murders.


 
I'm interested in how someone with his reputation gets involved in left wing politics.  I know very little about him, except what I've read online.  What I read alleges he was into supplying drugs and guns.  I'm wondering how true these allegations are.


----------



## Citizen66 (Dec 2, 2010)

Demu said:


> I think occupational hazard for Securicor/Group 4.


 
Well, erm, yeah. But a pro w/c robbing type can't argue that point. They're left with zero principles if they do.


----------



## Demu (Dec 2, 2010)

Blagsta said:


> I'm interested in how someone with his reputation gets involved in left wing politics.  I know very little about him, except what I've read online.  What I read alleges he was into supplying drugs and guns.  I'm wondering how true these allegations are.



What reputation? He was an anti fascist. A violent dangerous one at that, but then again so were the rest of us, so we could hardly condemn him for that could we?
Be interested to know what your source for these allegations are. Weblink ?


----------



## Demu (Dec 2, 2010)

Citizen66 said:


> Well, erm, yeah. But a pro w/c robbing type can't argue that point. They're left with zero principles if they do.



Make your own mind up. As I said....allegedly. So don't be building your case on what I said his reputation was allegedly based on.


----------



## Citizen66 (Dec 2, 2010)

Demu said:


> Make your own mind up. As I said....allegedly. So don't be building your case on what I said his reputation was allegedly based on.


 
I never applied my statement to anyone in particular. Well actually I did: generically to everyone. I don't know anything of your mate though bar what's being accused here. I never did rate Mackintyre though - it was a poor man's Cook Report.


----------



## Blagsta (Dec 2, 2010)

Demu said:


> What reputation? He was an anti fascist. A violent dangerous one at that, but then again so were the rest of us, so we could hardly condemn him for that could we?
> Be interested to know what your source for these allegations are. Weblink ?



Sources are from googling his name, some stuff on wikipedia, some on BBC site etc.  I really don't have an agenda here, I am curious though.  I have no problems with "violent dangerous" anti-fascists, but I do see a problem with allying with drug dealers - if it's true that he was involved.


----------



## Demu (Dec 2, 2010)

Citizen66 said:


> I never applied my statement to anyone in particular. Well actually I did: generically to everyone. I don't know anything of your mate though bar what's being accused here. I never did rate Mackintyre though - I preferred the Cook report.



To be fair, can only comment on MacIntyre as I have never met the well rounded Cook.


----------



## Citizen66 (Dec 2, 2010)

Demu said:


> To be fair, can only comment on MacIntyre as I have never met the well rounded Cook.


 
Well unlucky if you got to meet the loaded agenda that is Donal MacIntyre. 

I think I only watched the Brixton episode of his which I found particularly disgusting.

"Black people steal, yeah? Watch as I walk around endlessly in a black neighbourhood and eventually stalk a black man home until it happens"

Gripping.


----------



## Blagsta (Dec 2, 2010)

Donal Macintyre is a cock.


----------



## Demu (Dec 2, 2010)

Citizen66 said:


> Well unlucky if you got to meet the loaded agenda that is Donal MacIntyre.
> 
> I think I only watched the Brixton episode of his which I found particularly disgusting.
> 
> ...



Hence my request to disregard most if not all of what appeared on the MacIntyre documentary in respect of Dessie.


----------



## Demu (Dec 2, 2010)

Blagsta said:


> Donal Macintyre is a cock.



I'll tell him you said that.


----------



## miktheword (Dec 2, 2010)

Nigel Irritable said:


> The delightful posturing of middle aged "hard men". LiamO, if you didn't exist someone would have to invent you. As for you, Past Caring, I'm unaware of ever reading a significant political contribution from you on any subject, so it's difficult for me to assess how "heavyweight" you are.
> 
> Now if you lads are quite done with the personal jibes, perhaps we can get on to the political content sandwiched between the "tasty crew" nonsense in the book?


 
Nigel, I have to agree with LiamO's subsequent comment to yours. In my experience many of the middle aged men you refer to (and that's being kind to their age) talk with respect to people on the net, even under the most trying circumstances; They certainly don't engage in 'keyboard warrior bollox' as you state.   Some are gangsters in the student bar, some are students in the gangster bar, the internet though, allows some to just give abuse from the safety of the keyboard.
Surely its the contrary to your argument. I reminded of a quote once, 'the Left in Britain, if they didn't exist, the State would have to invent them.'
Someone wouldn't have invented the LiamO's who would? They were the abortion that survived the Left (no offence Liam).
How many at the height of Militant and SWP? a combined 15,000? If there were that many LiamO's and his band of middle aged men, the political situation in this country would have changed, I believe.

I don't see the book as you did. On the issue it tackles, in the title (which wasn't gangsters or drugs) it is remarkably non one dimensional. 'Beating the fascists' could have been just another football hoolie book with politics as an add on. But it is very short on the violence. 'Beating' I took before I read the book, to mean it would be more about how the fash could be beaten, on the tactic that they chose and forcing them  onto the one they now pursue.
More to the point, every instance of action is filled with at least double the spread as to where that left us, the fash; setbacks and victories.  

Hopefully this thread has moved on from the bitchiness of earlier, although still entertaining. (Don't ask Demu, the mickeys always have the best stuff).

For what its worth Nigel, I do remember you on a thread a year or two ago, asking some genuine, non-sectarian stuff about the IWCA and you seemed genuine in what lessons could be learnt from it.


----------



## Citizen66 (Dec 2, 2010)

Demu said:


> Hence my request to disregard most if not all of what appeared on the MacIntyre documentary in respect of Dessie.


 
Fair dos.


----------



## Blagsta (Dec 2, 2010)

Demu said:


> Hence my request to disregard most if not all of what appeared on the MacIntyre documentary in respect of Dessie.


 
Fair enough


----------



## Blagsta (Dec 2, 2010)

Demu said:


> I'll tell him you said that.


 
Please do


----------



## Demu (Dec 2, 2010)

Blagsta said:


> Sources are from googling his name, some stuff on wikipedia, some on BBC site etc.  I really don't have an agenda here, I am curious though.  I have no problems with "violent dangerous" anti-fascists, but I do see a problem with allying with drug dealers - if it's true that he was involved.



Involved in what. Make your case. 

Have you read the book? Draw your own conclusions.


----------



## Demu (Dec 2, 2010)

Blagsta said:


> Please do



Dont worry, rest assured he is a bigger cock than you


----------



## Blagsta (Dec 2, 2010)

Demu said:


> Involved in what. Make your case.
> 
> Have you read the book? Draw your own conclusions.



I'm not making a case.  I'm asking some questions because I'm curious.  I have read the book btw, as already stated.


----------



## Demu (Dec 2, 2010)

miktheword said:


> Nigel, I have to agree with LiamO's subsequent comment to yours. In my experience many of the middle aged men you refer to (and that's being kind to their age) talk with respect to people on the net, even under the most trying circumstances; They certainly don't engage in 'keyboard warrior bollox' as you state.   Some are gangsters in the student bar, some are students in the gangster bar, the internet though, allows some to just give abuse from the safety of the keyboard.
> Surely its the contrary to your argument. I reminded of a quote once, 'the Left in Britain, if they didn't exist, the State would have to invent them.'
> Someone wouldn't have invented the LiamO's who would? They were the abortion that survived the Left (no offence Liam).
> How many at the height of Militant and SWP? a combined 15,000? If there were that many LiamO's and his band of middle aged men, the political situation in this country would have changed, I believe.
> ...



You been drinking diesel?


----------



## Citizen66 (Dec 2, 2010)

Nigel Irritable said:


> LiamO, if you didn't exist someone would have to invent you.



This is classic Richard "you couldn't make it up" Littlejohn speak.

Nigel, don't let that mask slip too quickly. 




			
				Littlejohn said:
			
		

> The Left, in particular, raise the BNP bogeyman at every available opportunity, allowing themselves to flaunt their own 'goodness'. If the BNP didn't exist, Labour would have to invent them.
> 
> Source


----------



## Citizen66 (Dec 2, 2010)

miktheword said:


> I reminded of a quote once, 'the Left in Britain, if they didn't exist, the State would have to invent them.'


 

Perhaps not a Littlejohnism then. 

Good to see Littlejohn's plagiarising his lines though all the same.


----------



## miktheword (Dec 2, 2010)

Demu said:


> You been drinking diesel?


 
no, wearing them. Just thought I'd better clarify though. Wasn't meaning the middle aged men were the students / gangster bar etc! re-reading my post gave me  flashbacks to how my ramblings often got me into situations I had to talk my way out of.


----------



## Demu (Dec 2, 2010)

miktheword said:


> no, wearing them. Just thought I'd better clarify though. Wasn't meaning the middle aged men were the students / gangster bar etc! re-reading my post gave me  flashbacks to how my ramblings often got me into situations I had to talk my way out of.



That quote is rather familiar. Believe it was used to explain Hanns behaviour in Manchester many years ago. He behaved like a gangster in the student pub(salutation) and like a student in the gangster pub (gamecock).

So I am told


----------



## audiotech (Dec 2, 2010)

Good grief, looks very much like a hairstyle commonly referred to as a 'Tony Curtis', or am I being unkind?


----------



## audiotech (Dec 2, 2010)

trevhagl said:


> he means people who buy books because they expect them to be interesting, not full of pretentious long winded intellectual twaddle and theory



Not many a self taught working class intellectuals about these days sadly and it seems even less known about this tradition?


----------



## LiamO (Dec 3, 2010)

miktheword said:


> (no offence Liam).



None taken Mik. Your post was interesting and made some valid points.

As for clarity... we could all do with a little more of that in our writing... but reading your post, in the respectful way I believe it was written, it was not that difficult at all to get the points you were making.


----------



## trevhagl (Dec 3, 2010)

well i managed to get the book before Xmas and despite struggling with a map reading magnifying glass, i'm hooked. The stuck up smug twats on here that criticise it are so far off the mark it's unreal. Apart from the first chapter which is like a Searchlight page filler analysis (which i guess is put there for people who haven't seen a book of this kind before), it's gripping stuff so far, great tale about breaking into the NFs industrial unit and well....so far so great. So if any twats come on here and whine about it being like a hooligan book just tell em to fuck off back to their dull theoretical academic textbooks and get a job as a headmaster or something


----------



## miktheword (Dec 3, 2010)

Demu said:


> That quote is rather familiar. Believe it was used to explain Hanns behaviour in Manchester many years ago. He behaved like a gangster in the student pub(salutation) and like a student in the gangster pub (gamecock).
> 
> So I am told


 
correct , and on second thoughts, I might as well have been drinking diesel.


----------



## miktheword (Dec 3, 2010)

LiamO said:


> None taken Mik. Your post was interesting and made some valid points.
> 
> As for clarity... we could all do with a little more of that in our writing... but reading your post, in the respectful way I believe it was written, it was not that difficult at all to get the points you were making.


 
thanks Liam. ( the 'abortion that survived ' quote I think was in the pamphlet 'We Are Red Action' or The Blitz article more likely.)
So, definitely meant respectfully. I was meant to be praising your eloquently put comment about how some who are quick to give the verbals from their keyboard, would be far less likely to do so in real life. and that they had called your comment 'internet warrior bollox' was ironic.

 I was going to blame my tangential digressing ramblings on The Scouse Git who logged on in my absence! Looking forward to the launch.


----------



## kenny g (Dec 3, 2010)

It is a very good book, well worth reading and politically inspirational.


----------



## LiamO (Dec 3, 2010)

"The abortion that survived" is an evocative little gem that M O'F was fond of using. 

I think it _was_ in that Blitz article. Mind you he was well pissed when he met them as a gang of us had been drinking all day with the late and sorely missed Liam Ó Loingsigh - much to the disgust of our sober colleagues attending and contributing to an all-day political meeting.

This 'scouse git'... is it TC? Is he coming?


----------



## miktheword (Dec 3, 2010)

LiamO said:


> "The abortion that survived" is an evocative little gem that M O'F was fond of using.
> 
> I think it _was_ in that Blitz article. Mind you he was well pissed when he met them as a gang of us had been drinking all day with the late and sorely missed Liam Ó Loingsigh - much to the disgust of our sober colleagues attending and contributing to an all-day political meeting.
> 
> This 'scouse git'... is it TC? Is he coming?


 
not him, another one. Alan T of Freedom Of Movement fame and many infamous events as well. I keep filling him in on amusing posts from this site, and quite often with the comment halfway through 'Demu, Liam O , they sound quite eloquent actually!'. He replies, yeah, Liam, always was, even Demu, despite their parochial northern rivalry.  I guess this format gives me a chance to read the  words of those I only had previously heard in reference to the day's events or the next strategy, often in a loud boozer.


----------



## cantsin (Dec 3, 2010)

The39thStep said:


> I was was never a member of Red Action and actually stayed with the SWP when they were expelled ( I joined in 1977 and stayed untill the mid 90s ) . Despite political differences I never experienced Red Action in the way Nigel describes them as being phyiscally threatening to those who disagreed with them politically .In fact quite the opposite . Nigel would have us believe that Red Action were somehow politically light . Not the case at all . In fact free from the prison of Totskyist formula they were actually politically challenging.  I moved from NW London to Manchester in the  late 80s and had exactly the same relationship with members of Red Action and AFA in Manchester. They argued their politics, I argued mine. where we could cooperate we did, where we disagreed we disagreed. I must say that wasn't my experience of with Militant but perhaps the ones I met went to the same political day schools as Nigel.


 
similar to  my experience/perception of RA as an SWP member back then ( admittedly, I was drifting apart from the party from pretty early on )  _ havent read the whole thread, but sounds a lot like Irritating Nigel has never met anyone from RA / has reads books / not much else -


----------



## LiamO (Dec 4, 2010)

But I bet he has read some _really big_ books... ones with no pictures or anyfink... no doubt he learned how to address Oiks in one of them.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Dec 4, 2010)

Old blokes reminiscing.


----------



## LiamO (Dec 4, 2010)

During the War.....


----------



## trevhagl (Dec 4, 2010)

LiamO said:


> I was not responding to 'criticism' (and most definitely not to any _political_ 'criticism').
> 
> I was responding to your flouncy, Student Grant-style pissiness - and pointing out that if you adopted a similar 'debating style' to the people involved face to face you would get short shrift. In fact if you acted like that in _any_ boozer I've ever drank in, you would not last pissing time.
> 
> But then you are possibly a much more pleasant individual in person and they would be content to just rip your 'argument' to pieces.


 
probably why he sits behind a computer all day. Safer


----------



## trevhagl (Dec 4, 2010)

been reading more and its continually great, love the tale about the gang member who gets chinned and in the end 60 of the fuckers gather outside the Squadists house throwing petrol bombs, and all the fun and games and humour despite the adversity !!!


----------



## love detective (Dec 4, 2010)

how you getting on with the type size?


----------



## articul8 (Dec 4, 2010)

miktheword said:


> I don't see the book as you did. On the issue it tackles, in the title (which wasn't gangsters or drugs) it is remarkably non one dimensional. 'Beating the fascists' could have been just another football hoolie book with politics as an add on. But it is very short on the violence. 'Beating' I took before I read the book, to mean it would be more about how the fash could be beaten, on the tactic that they chose and forcing them  onto the one they now pursue.


 
I don't know about this - something like the anti-poll tax struggle gets only a passing mention.  Don't know whether this just falls outside the remit of the book and what Red Action may or may not have done in terms of involvement in that - but seeing direct confrontation with the still relatively marginal forces of fascism as being the primary political objective does seem to be more than a little one-sided.


----------



## trevhagl (Dec 4, 2010)

love detective said:


> how you getting on with the type size?


 
fucking about with a magnifying glass type thing!!


----------



## imposs1904 (Dec 4, 2010)

trevhagl said:


> probably why he sits behind a computer all day. Safer




*Trev* 12,604 posts in two and a half years 
*Nigel* 4,547 posts in eight and a half years


----------



## LiamO (Dec 4, 2010)

articul8 said:


> I don't know about this - something like the anti-poll tax struggle gets only a passing mention.  Don't know whether this just falls outside the remit of the book and what Red Action may or may not have done in terms of involvement in that - but seeing direct confrontation with the still relatively marginal forces of fascism as being the primary political objective does seem to be more than a little one-sided.





Yes, but BTF is a book about _Anti-Fascist_ Action, that funnily enough concentrates on anti-Fascism.




... and yes lots of Red Action people were heavily involved in anti-poll tax stuff, both local and national - as was everybody else back in the day - including that delightful day in Trafalgar Square.


----------



## LiamO (Dec 4, 2010)

trevhagl said:


> been reading more and its continually great, love the tale about the gang member who gets chinned and in the end 60 of the fuckers gather outside the Squadists house throwing petrol bombs, and all the fun and games and humour despite the adversity !!!



I remember well traversing the urban jungle that was the Divis Flats in Belfast in August 1983. It was Red Action's fist trip over for the Internment weekend. As we crossed a desolate wasteground, a Cockney-Nigerian head appeared out of a window in a block of flats 100 yards away to loudly, and cheefully, cheerfully inform one of our number " 'ere Joe, your house (in Kilburn) has been fackin' petrol-bombed". 

This caused much mirth from our lot and lots of confused looks, about this apparent role-reversal, from our Belfast hosts.


----------



## trevhagl (Dec 4, 2010)

imposs1904 said:


> *Trev* 12,604 posts in two and a half years
> *Nigel* 4,547 posts in eight and a half years


 
i may be sad but not sad enough to research how many posts people make!


----------



## trevhagl (Dec 4, 2010)

LiamO said:


> I remember well traversing the urban jungle that was the Divis Flats in Belfast in August 1983. It was Red Action's fist trip over for the Internment weekend. As we crossed a desolate wasteground, a Cockney-Nigerian head appeared out of a window in a block of flats 100 yards away to loudly, and cheefully, cheerfully inform one of our number " 'ere Joe, your house (in Kilburn) has been fackin' petrol-bombed".
> 
> This caused much mirth from our lot and lots of confused looks, about this apparent role-reversal, from our Belfast hosts.


 
aye i got the irony when reading it. They musta been proper mentals though, what sort of gang were they?


----------



## imposs1904 (Dec 4, 2010)

trevhagl said:


> i may be sad but not sad enough to research how many posts people make!



_"research"_?

Mmm, yeah looking at the post count for both you and Nigel constitutes heavy going research.


----------



## trevhagl (Dec 4, 2010)

imposs1904 said:


> _"research"_?
> 
> Mmm, yeah looking at the post count for both you and Nigel constitutes heavy going research.


 
i wouldn't even know or care where the post count is. You'd make a great market researcher if you're excited by figures, and get paid for it


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## Spanky Longhorn (Dec 5, 2010)

trevhagl said:


> i wouldn't even know or care where the post count is. You'd make a great market researcher if you're excited by figures, and get paid for it


 
It's on the left hand side of every post you make right there under your name

trevhagl

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## Sean (Dec 5, 2010)

Forget Trevhagl's issues with the font size, the poor mrs has had to buy herself some ludicrously overpriced designer glasses to read it.


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## trevhagl (Dec 5, 2010)

Sean said:


> Forget Trevhagl's issues with the font size, the poor mrs has had to buy herself some ludicrously overpriced designer glasses to read it.


 
i'm past that stage, no amount of strong glasses would be good enough.....great book though and probably the only one i would go to all this trouble to read!


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## Joe Reilly (Dec 5, 2010)

articul8 said:


> I know that there were/are some serious people involved in this tradition....But there is a macho-hobbyistic element to the enthusiasm that comes out too.



Name another 'hobby' where, after a relatively minor confrontation with an individual described by a Judge in the Old Bailey as an "animal"  (and who on a separate occasion hospitalised four prison officers using a metal tray) nevertheless earned the accused a total of 11 years?


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## articul8 (Dec 5, 2010)

to be fair aren't there are people around the football hool scene - even unlucky people that got caught up in it - who have got lengthy and/or totally undeserved sentences?  I'm not saying btw that there werent times when AFA/RA actions weren't useful/necessary/essential in defensive terms.  But at times in the book the politics seems to be an adjunct to the rules of a subcultural scene and pulling in a periphery that wasn't much more political than the raw recruits of any typical football firm.


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## Anudder Oik (Dec 5, 2010)

articul8 said:


> ... I'm not saying btw that there werent times when AFA/RA actions weren't useful/necessary/essential in defensive terms.  But at times in the book the politics seems to be an adjunct to the rules of a subcultural scene and pulling in a periphery that wasn't much more political than the raw recruits of any typical football firm.


 
I think you should be thankful that there were some who could pull in a periphery of "working class" people willing to physically confront the fascists. What exactly is the problem with that politically? Many political campaigns such as *ANL* or *Right to work* rely on a periphery which doesn't turn up readily politicised. People learn during the struggle and Anti fascism cannot be soley defensive as it would allow the fascists to maintain the iniciative.

Sorry to barge in like this with my first post. I'm half way through the book and have been following this thread to see if political disagreements over strategy come up. So far only complaints about the harshness of the descriptions and that quote above, so not much joy there. The book deserves more respect as it is honest and brings up untold relevant political insights and questions.

Baring in mind the fascist psyche, Is there a more productive anti fascist alternative strategy than that extolled by the book?


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## The39thStep (Dec 6, 2010)

articul8 said:


> to be fair aren't there are people around the football hool scene - even unlucky people that got caught up in it - who have got lengthy and/or totally undeserved sentences?  I'm not saying btw that there werent times when AFA/RA actions weren't useful/necessary/essential in defensive terms.  But at times in the book the politics seems to be an adjunct to the rules of a subcultural scene and pulling in a periphery that wasn't much more political than the raw recruits of any typical football firm.


 
'rules of a subcultural scene'  Ok Professor tells us how it should have been.


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## treelover (Dec 6, 2010)

'Your lot do 'revolutionary politics' while the rougher end of the market should confine themselves to football hooliganism, bank robbery, beer glass brawling or possibly drug dealing. Is that it? If this is the case, then at best, as well as being a bit of snob, you are remarkably naive. The rougher end of the market has always been involved in radical politics. The core of the 43 Group was made up of 300 ex- commandos. The CP in the 30's was as least as well organised and aggressive as the BUF: 'we knew where to put the razors in the potatoes'. It is only the liberal left who like to pretend that it only the fascists who are low born and violent. '



my stomach is curdling....


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## Fedayn (Dec 6, 2010)

treelover said:


> 'Your lot do 'revolutionary politics' while the rougher end of the market should confine themselves to football hooliganism, bank robbery, beer glass brawling or possibly drug dealing. Is that it? If this is the case, then at best, as well as being a bit of snob, you are remarkably naive. The rougher end of the market has always been involved in radical politics. The core of the 43 Group was made up of 300 ex- commandos. The CP in the 30's was as least as well organised and aggressive as the BUF: 'we knew where to put the razors in the potatoes'. It is only the liberal left who like to pretend that it only the fascists who are low born and violent. '
> 
> 
> 
> *my stomach is curdling.... *



Why?


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## past caring (Dec 6, 2010)

Moved down from the brain?


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## Anudder Oik (Dec 6, 2010)

*Dismissed as hooligans*

It would be really good if someone more articulate were to come along and argue the faults of Squadism from a political standpoint rather than just resorting to cheap jibes steeped in lashings of class prejudice re hooligan culture and all. If you read the book or know anything about AFA you can't fail to see that they had/have a sharp no nonsence political analysis, helped by the common sense that the experience growing up as working class brings. Just on page 147 of the book you have enough food for thought to start a new thread.

I was on the periphery of the SWP 10 years ago. There was a dogma then that Squadism was; A. substituting the working class and B. undemocratic. Hardly Trotsky's point of view.

But they've all read the 43 Group book and liked it.


What I think it boiled down to was they didn't want their boat rocked. They were concerned that bashing the fash would invite retribution and upset their comfortable debates (Which were good incidently). The problem is in the real world the fash once they're big enough are gonna start on you anyway and if you are a revolutionary and can't land a punch on a nazi at least once in your lifetime then you seriously have to reflect on your role as a revolutionary. You can't all be rear guard.

Another thing. I did notice that one of the leading comrade's (at branch level) attitude changed to me after a conversation that went like this;

Question "So, what university did you go to?"
Answer "I didn't".


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## LiamO (Dec 6, 2010)

treelover said:


> my stomach is curdling....


 
well eat some meat and do some exercise then, you sappy vegan tree-shagger.


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## Anudder Oik (Dec 6, 2010)

*Music wars*

Early on in the book it talks about how there was a series of attacks on punk gigs in the late 70's. Lurkers, Ruts, and Sham's last stand amongst some of them. Is there proof that these attacks were formally planned by the BM or NF or could it have been just that there were loads of skins on the scene who just wanted to start on the punks as part of a night out and did it on their own initiative.

Later on around 83 there was the attempted attack on the Upstarts at the Lyceum that was filmed and looked planned. 

Any one see any of it?


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## The39thStep (Dec 6, 2010)

GLC Redskins gig is a good example of planned disruption by the fash, They turned up in Carnaby Street near the NME offices with 'Kick over the Redskins' T shirts the day after


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## Divisive Cotton (Dec 7, 2010)

I was just looking at David Hoffman's photos here: http://archive.hoffmanphotos.com/

They go back a way

David has just won a £30k payout from the Met for accidently on purpose smashing his face in on the G20 protest


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## Nice one (Dec 7, 2010)

first part of an extended review in Freedom. Asked someone, who was involved in class war/afa back in the day, to give it their critical assessment. Came back with a really good review.

http://www.freedompress.org.uk/news/2010/11/29/a-review-of-%E2%80%9Cbeating-the-fascists-the-untold-history-of-anti-fascist-action%E2%80%9D/


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## DaveCinzano (Dec 7, 2010)

Anudder Oik said:


> Later on around 83 there was the attempted attack on the Upstarts at the Lyceum that was filmed and looked planned.


 
Is that the one mentioned in the documentary AFA made for BBC?


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## Anudder Oik (Dec 7, 2010)

*Lyceum or Astoria?*



DaveCinzano said:


> Is that the one mentioned in the documentary AFA made for BBC?



Yeah, looks to be it. Thought it was Lyceum in the Strand not Astoria, but there you go. Cool footage afterwards of all those dodgy geezers crossing the road. LOL.

In the book it tells about Nick Crane being brought down whilst retreating from Jubilee gardens and grabbing a girl as a sort of human shield? How did that happen? Didn't the fash stick together as they made their way off?


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## The39thStep (Dec 7, 2010)

Anudder Oik said:


> Yeah, looks to be it. Thought it was Lyceum in the Strand not Astoria, but there you go. Cool footage afterwards of all those dodgy geezers crossing the road. LOL.
> 
> In the book it tells about Nick Crane being brought down whilst retreating from Jubilee gardens and grabbing a girl as a sort of human shield? How did that happen? Didn't the fash stick together as they made their way off?



If this is the Redskins GLC bit? Others can give their recollection but as I remember they ran to both sides of the crowd after they were attacked. My nates and me caught up with some on he right hand side and gave two a smack and then joined other anti fash chasing them into the station.They split and  I was with about four/five other people by then who I didn't know when we found two hiding and were giving them a hiding when I got arrested.

At the trial the Police were warned for contempt of court as one officer joked that his memory wasn't very good as he had been doing too much overtime during the miners strike. When one contradicted his mate ( bit of confusion whether I was kicking or punching one and whether it was with my right hand, left or both) the defence solicitor requested that the case be dismissed. The magistrates without retiring said yes, rebuked the officers for their evidence and I asked for £100 loss of earnings etc and got it.


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## The39thStep (Dec 7, 2010)

The Specials at Brunel University in Uxbridge was another , a group of fash including BM had a go but were repulsed, they had a go at a Ruts gig in London which I think was more opportunist  and I seem to remember Atiila the Stockbroker getting a battering at a gig but wasn't there.

AFA stewarded a Redskins/ Dead Kennedys gig at the Lyceum ( I think) which we all thought was going to be attacked but nothing happened either there or the way home as I remember.


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## LiamO (Dec 7, 2010)

Anudder Oik said:


> In the book it tells about Nick Crane being brought down whilst retreating from Jubilee gardens and grabbing a girl as a sort of human shield? How did that happen? Didn't the fash stick together as they made their way off?




During the war... 







Did they fuck! They did the first time (redskins) but when they came back for seconds (for Hank Wangford!) and the crowd turned on them, it was every bone for himself. 

In fairness, the book has this slightly arseways (it was a long time ago) in that the woman he used to shield himself is referred to as 'an anti-fascist' whereas she was just a punter, minding her own business, when the mayhem burst her bubble of tranquility..

Crane just appeared, as some of his mates were getting it, and shouted  'I'm NF! who fuckin wants it?' People actually backed off initially which enraged PC who brought him down with a kind of Rugby tackle.  

Crane grabbed a woman who was lying on the ground, sunning herself and enjoying the music. He basically grabbed her round the waist and buried his head into her stomach. This meant he could not be hit to the head. Anxious to get at him, PC was pulling one leg, I was pulling the other. Crane was hanging on for dear life and - as is often the case too many cooks was spoiling the quality of the broth. Outraged punters, keen to exact revenge, were actually getting in each others way when two people could have done some real damage - and saved the pain of many other people who felt Crane's wrath over the years before his untimely but welcome demise.

Various lefty harridans were also squealing 'Stop it! Youre as bad as they are'.  I recall PC was offended by this and replied 'no we're not - we're fackin worse'  - in between encouraging others to keep up the pace, by shouting 'Kill the cunt'. A fight nearby resulted in a bit of a surge, which knocked a lot of people off balance. Crane took full advantage of this, jumping to his feet and charging off through the crowd. I recall two Miners (family blokes in their mid-forties, bare-chested and dressed in just shorts and trainers) just missed capturing him and one missed the back of Crane's head with an almighty swing of a cider bottle by millimetres. But Crane escaped.

Later PC, who was just out of Jail and whose face would have been not too well known to the fash in the Agricultural, volunteered to go and check out the Aggy, whilst the rest of us hid in a pub round the corner. He was sipping a glass of lager when in came this shaven-head bone, whom they all called 'Nicky'. He was proudly showing off his black & blue torso to the assembled Boneheads. Crane was told he was lucky to be alive and replied 'I know. all I could hear was some cunt shouting "kill him, kill him" '. 

Little did he know that the same 'cunt' was 5 yards away half-chuckling, but also half choking, into his drink.

Anyways PC returned with his report and an ambush on some passing bones was followed by a 'Show of strength' walk-by the Agricultural - which of course descended into a pitch battle in jig-time.


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## Spanky Longhorn (Dec 8, 2010)

A good story well told there Uncle Albert


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## DaveCinzano (Dec 8, 2010)

The39thStep said:


> The magistrates without retiring said yes, rebuked the officers for their evidence and I asked for £100 loss of earnings etc and got it.


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## LiamO (Dec 8, 2010)

Another strange phenomenon occurred that day. (I wrote this for somewhere else so I can't be arsed editing it too much, so ye can live with the repetition)







In 1984 the GLC held a free ‘Jobs For A Change’ outdoor concert at County Hall/Jubilee Gardens. There were about 10,000 people between the two venues. As a band called the RedSkins played at County Hall, about 60 NF Skinheads attacked the stage and smashed up all the gear. 

Mass panic ensued as men women and children fled the onslaught. They were eventually chased off by the crowd, but only after the damage was done. As the chase ensued, a distilling of the pursuers occurred. This resulted in only the most determined still being there when the posse caught some of the master-race. Retribution was swift and resolute and the anti-fascists made their way back, still outraged at the NF launching a successful attack.

On the Jubilee Gardens stage an innocuous outfit called the Hank Wangford band was plodding their way through a Country set. Suddenly a smaller group of Nazi’s, emboldened by their previous victory attacked this stage too. One particularly graphic memory was the Bass guitarist being butted and his ‘Axe’ being swung by a Bonehead straight into the face of the lead singer. This time, the ‘distilled’ crowd were better prepared and nearly all the Fash were captured and set upon by irate punters. There were some brutal kickings being handed out, and well deserved too.

At one stage two coppers had managed to drag two of the beleaguered Boneheads from the mob, and were holding back the crowd using a couple of chairs (a bit like lion-tamers). At this point we were being screamed at by various pacifist types ‘stop it! Stop it! you’re as bad as they are’. 

Two women in particular were acting as a kind of human shield and shrieking like banshees. Anyways, someone clipped a copper (nothing major), he went down. So did his mate when he tried to help. We ignored the two cops cos we were only interested in the Boneheads. But as I scanned the scene looking for more lurking Fascists, what did I see but my erstwhile pacifist friends (the banshees) kicking lumps out of the prostrate Plod.

This puzzled me greatly. One minute they were doing exactly what the two cops were doing. i.e putting themselves in physical danger to protect the Bones. The next they were battering the very same policemen!

I enquired afterwards had anybody else noticed this and many had. My friend Joe (who had considerably more experience of this type of thing than me)pushed his glasses back on his nose, and explained this was a common enough occurrence. His analogy was that it was just like the way some people totally change character when they get behind the wheel of a car – so did people when a copper went down in front of them. 

He said that whilst the pacifists were _thinking_, every sinew urged them to try and stop the violence. Once a cop fell, literally, at their feet ‘animal instinct’ took over – and the faceless uniform in front of them had to pay the price for years of being messed about and abused by coppers. It was a reflex. 

He finished by saying that he would bet that nobody was more surprised than the banshees themselves at their reaction and that they would be “at home crying into their lentils and muesli as we speak”. He said it made no odds whether it was the SPG or 'Dixon of Dock Green' people were always taken aback by their deep-seated fear and hatred ofthe police.

Over the next few years I witnessed the same phenomenon several times - not just with coppers but with horizontal fascists too -  and heard many anecdotes noting it. 

I imagine it would be of scant consolation to the plod in question to know that it was probably ‘nothing personal’ and ‘totally out of character’ for their attackers to behave like that - but it was instructive for me. 

It also showed the destructive power that lies inside people that can be tapped into by a little local, contextual leadership (which I would regard as potentially a very _good_ thing) and also the power of the mob (which can be a mesmerisingly destructive thing).


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## Joe Reilly (Dec 9, 2010)

articul8 said:


> I don't know about this - something like the anti-poll tax struggle gets only a passing mention.  Don't know whether this just falls outside the remit of the book and what Red Action may or may not have done in terms of involvement in that - but seeing direct confrontation with the still relatively marginal forces of fascism as being the primary political objective does seem to be more than a little one-sided.



First of all, it bears repeating, this is book is not about RA. It is not even about RA _in _AFA. It tells the story of militant anti-fascism from beginning to end, and from the inside out, pure and simple. 

A major error, oft repeated and mentioned above, is for the left to regard anti-fascism as just another campaign - we have already seen same argument for 'the multi-faceted' approach previously on here from Socialist Party contributors. However the reality is that when fascism appears on the stage it very often signals - especially when it has the potential to garner political support from below - that something catastrophic is wrong with the Left as a whole. Who can deny that reality today?

At the time there were of course  furious denials: 'fascists will be swept away like the dust of history': 'We beat them before and we will best them again' and so forth. 

It follows therefore that when, either from opportunism or a genuine sense of concern, the conservative Left did eventually take to the field, there is no change of plan. Instead it insisted on following precisely the same formula, that rid them of their credibility with the working class in the first place: immediately joining forces with the establishment, demanding bans from the police, and flooding impoverished working class communities with propaganda along the lines of 'Refugees welcome here!', and of a similar ilk. All they were doing is in effect unleashing with considerable zeal, a process that can only went to underline the fascists credential as the 'radical alternative'. As was obvious as early as 1993, the ANL fulfilled all of this criteria, and more. 

Instructively, after the Bradford riots, it was not the SWP, but MP's of a largely ethnic backgrounds who in withdrawing their support effectively pulled the plug. Once consequence of the rug being pulled from under the ANL in such a hasty fashion, is that there is yet to be a proper discussion on how the 'still marginal BNP' climbed from getting just over 7,000 votes in the general election in 1992 to having a voter base, by some estimates of approx 3 million, fifteen years later. 

What BTF explains is why it happened, and of course also the 'one-sided' measures that prevented it happening a hell of a lot sooner. 

Which is why one way or the other the wider debate both here and in Europe, will have to happen.


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## LiamO (Dec 10, 2010)

... and you included white space, Joe. 

I hope we can take this as a sign of the 'easily readable' shape of things to come.


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## miktheword (Dec 10, 2010)

LiamO said:


> ... and you included white space, Joe.
> 
> I hope we can take this as a sign of the 'easily readable' shape of things to come.


 
Dunno about this. Prefered no space. Helps me to get into the full flow of the experience of the read outloud.. Think I've nearly perfected the accent and the right moment to pause and laugh; even stopping at times to push my reading glasses back up the nose.

Great analysis which relates to the last chapters of the book; almost violence free (the job had been done) and probably the best chapters of the book as well (not DUE to the lack of violence by the way).
If ever a book needed a second, follow up, this is it. But I suspect the story is still unfolding, and with the cuts agenda and responses, it would probably be out of date by the time it was penned. The authors probably need a rest from writing  as well. 

(Great to see everyone, pity me and SG were too dishevelled and lived too far away to stay later).


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## imposs1904 (Dec 21, 2010)

Just spotted a listing for the book here.

A couple of questions for people on the thread who know about these things:

1) The Mark Hayes blurb at the bottom of the page. Is that from a review? If so, is there a link to the review online?
2) A bit more obscure. Is that the same Mark Hayes who write the book about the British Communist Left a few years back? It was published by the Eye Cee Cee around about 2004/2005.


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## laptop (Dec 21, 2010)

imposs1904 said:


> 1) The Mark Hayes blurb at the bottom of the page. Is that from a review? If so, is there a link to the review online?



Reads like a blurb 

Searching for


```
Where facts are few, experts proliferate. Beating the Fascists
```

produces the page you referenced and dozens of IWCA pages using it as a blurb. But what does Google know?


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## Fozzie Bear (Dec 23, 2010)

A friend of mine reviewed the book for The National, an English language newspaper in the United Arab Emirates. 

http://www.thenational.ae/arts-culture/books/a-history-of-violence?pageCount=0

I don't agree with all, and he tries to cover a hell of a lot of ground, but it's a broadly positive review in an unlikely place I guess. 

I think the book is excellent. I need to read it again really, to consolidate my thoughts a bit.


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## love detective (Dec 23, 2010)

_Sean Birchall, a long-time left-wing activist_


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## butchersapron (Jan 4, 2011)

I notice that Colin Ireland - the C18 wannabe, and actual serial killer mentioned as having a lucky escape in the book has turned muslim. Maybe Myatt is his imam?


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## The39thStep (Jan 4, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> I notice that Colin Ireland - the C18 wannabe, and actual serial killer mentioned as having a lucky escape in the book has turned muslim. Maybe Myatt is his imam?



I noticed that as well.likes curries apparantly and doesn't want to work Fridays. Is Islam the new Catholicism?


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## Spanky Longhorn (Jan 4, 2011)

Fish curries.


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## Demu (Jan 13, 2011)

Now also available from AK Press via Amazon.


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## Demu (Jan 13, 2011)

The book that is.....not fish curries.


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## LiamO (Jan 13, 2011)

Demu said:


> Now also available from AK Press via Amazon.


 
So... it's available on Amazon now... AK press you say...


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## audiotech (Jan 20, 2011)




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## Anudder Oik (Jan 21, 2011)

*Will read it again and Barking Documentary*

I've read the book now and will def re-read again as it is sound as fuck. The last chapters dealing with political analisys are a must for any serious anti nazis. 

Also, I looked up the business of Herr Griffin being set upon by a protest outside a journalist meeting at Front Line last week where they were going to show a documentary called the *Battle of Barking*. As well as photos of the scuffles and a large woman dressed like a bear leading the charge I came across some talk on the net that the Griffin entourage had got the jitters beforehand as they had seen a group of lads in a pub nearby with plenty of bottles to hand and suspected they were there to get them.

Apart from that titbit, has anyone seen the Barking documentary about the elections? The result was hailed as a victory for anti fascism at the time. Did the BNP vote go up or down?


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## Red O (Jan 22, 2011)

Their total vote in the Barking and Dagenham council elections went up from 15,700 in 2006 to 31,000 (standing more candidates) in 2010 (http://www.barking-dagenham.gov.uk/9-democracy/elections/elections-menu.html, http://www.iwca.info/?p=10153)


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## Anudder Oik (Jan 22, 2011)

Red O said:


> Their total vote in the Barking and Dagenham council elections went up from 15,700 in 2006 to 31,000 (standing more candidates) in 2010 (http://www.barking-dagenham.gov.uk/9-democracy/elections/elections-menu.html, http://www.iwca.info/?p=10153)


 
So, why the F**j is it being hailed as a victory for anti fascism?


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## laptop (Jan 22, 2011)

Anudder Oik said:


> So, why the F**j is it being hailed as a victory for anti fascism?


 
I hold no brief for the people claiming it as "brilliant" etc.

But the BNP losing all their council seats (and failing to win a Westminster seat) was good news.

And the total-vote figures aren't amazingly helpful: it's better to compare like for like, isn't it?

How did the vote go in the wards where they stood both times?


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## audiotech (Jan 22, 2011)

They story is the BNP got "wiped out" and now have no councillors in Barking and Dagenham, whereas at one time it formed the largest opposition party there, with 12 councillors.


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## Spanky Longhorn (Jan 23, 2011)

Anudder Oik said:


> So, why the F**j is it being hailed as a victory for anti fascism?


 
Most people hailing it as a victory see it purely in electoral terms, and as a success in mobilising an anti racist vote against an explicitly racist one - I think Hope not Hate actually do admit the next stage is to try and deal with the concerns of the BNP voters that led them to support the BNP in the first place. Whether Hope not Hates' autoLabour politics will allow them to do this I don't know (I doubt it though).

I think that although it wasn't a victory from a progressive working class/socialist perspective it was a massive set back for the BNP and the following months have demonstrated that, however it has as far as many people are concerned removed the urgency of addressing the reasons for the BNPs growth in the first place and that is extremely dangerous indeed.


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## butchersapron (Jan 23, 2011)

laptop said:


> I hold no brief for the people claiming it as "brilliant" etc.
> 
> But the BNP losing all their council seats (and failing to win a Westminster seat) was good news.
> 
> ...


 
They stayed pretty much the same or dropped/rose by around a hundred - whilst extending the total size via getting similar results in the new wards.  Before there were 12 wards in which a 1000 people+ voted BNP in B&D - now there's 25.


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## Louis MacNeice (Jan 23, 2011)

audiotech said:


> A story is the BNP got "wiped out" and now have no councillors in Barking and Dagenham, whereas at one time it formed the largest opposition party there, with 12 councillors; but there are other important stories as well e.g. the extension and normalisation of their vote.



Corrected for accuracy and in the interests of good story telling.

Louis MacNeice


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## audiotech (Jan 23, 2011)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Corrected for accuracy and in the interests of good story telling.
> 
> Louis MacNeice



indeed


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## Joe Reilly (Jan 25, 2011)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> Most people hailing it as a victory see it purely in electoral terms, and as a success in mobilising an anti racist vote against an explicitly racist one - I think Hope not Hate actually do admit the next stage is to try and deal with the concerns of the BNP voters that led them to support the BNP in the first place. Whether Hope not Hates' autoLabour politics will allow them to do this I don't know (I doubt it though).
> 
> I think that although it wasn't a victory from a progressive working class/socialist perspective it was a massive set back for the BNP and the following months have demonstrated that, however it has as far as many people are concerned removed the urgency of addressing the reasons for the BNPs growth in the first place and that is extremely dangerous indeed.



To a large extent the massive problems faced by the BNP internally over the last months seem to have been courtesy of the Trevor Phillips initiative to turn  'BNP' into the 'Black National Party', in tandem with that the unleashing of MI5 sleepers in the ranks all the same time in order to bring the party to its knees. Though it will take the BNP many months to fully recover momentum, it does seem the establishment has swung and missed. That being the case, and with all their spook assets exposed, expelled or otherwise used up, if the leadership keep their heads, the BNP may well have a trouble free run for the forseeable future. 

As for Barking and the response to it, is this not just a re-run of the Isle of Dogs in 1993 - BNP vote actually doubles, and its back-slapping all round among so called anti-fascists. In the near twenty years since Cllr Beackon it is evident that the same basic errors are still in play.


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## laptop (Jan 25, 2011)

Ermmmm....





Marmite™


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## butchersapron (Jan 25, 2011)

That was all manageable - it still is. The political way they've responded (or haven't) since may is what's causing problems, allied with Griffin being quite happy to sit above the fray in europe for a year and see his potential threats fuck each other over. The finance stuff, whilst handled badly, is not and never will be a killer.


----------



## ayatollah (Jan 26, 2011)

Demu said:


> Hello Steve,
> 
> Lets clear up the insults first. Coward. I certainly would not describe you in those terms. When I joined the squad it was because of lads such as yourself, big Steve, Roy, who were prepared to go the extra mile and risk the nickings and the kickings for what you believed in.
> 
> ...


 
Just stumbled on this long discussion on the Web so please forgive me for taking up an issue from page 24. The cutting of of relations with "Searchlight" was not really with the organisation itself, but with the two representatives of Searchlight in Manchester - who ruthlessly played power games with the members of the Squad in Manchester whilst other comrades were in clink. They also syphoned off funds from the Rochdale 8 Defence fund for other unspecified political uses of their own.Dennis was the prime victim of this manipulative meddling. It is sad to see so many old comrades at each other's throats now - but the fact is you were all heroes back in the day - surely that is the lesson to be taken from both books - that at a time of danger a few people buried their differences and stepped up to the plate and fought of the fascists whilst the rest of the Left sniped on the sidelines about  "Thugs" - but nevertheless gained respite from their meetings being attacked so normal political activity could continue.
On another point raised - the suspension of Class War from AFA. I was the person (with the completely useless GR)tasked to carry out the investigation by the AFA Steering Group. I was shocked at the glee with which so many on the Left sniped and badmouthed Class War , but then NOONE was prepared to make any detail statements to the enquiry to back up the gossip- Witchhunting seemed to be VERY popular on the Left.  No sooner than I had reported there was no case to answer on Class War, then Bugger me other Lefties tried to expel Red Action , and demanded another GRAND ENQUIRY - into RA this time - such FUN!! I was able to quash the demand for another Witchhunt "Enquiry" at the next Steering Group Meeting. Sometimes to understand the Left you really do have to sit through a whole viewing of  "Life of Brian" !  By the way, whatever Steve Tilzey may have done subsequently he was a true anti fascist hero for many years in the Squad, and anyone who wasn't involved in that struggle themselves hasn't earned the right to snipe at him now. I know some of you lads have earned that right - but too many nitpickers haven't. I hope the new book (haven't secured a copy yet) will encourage anti fascists from all parts of the wide social/political spectrum to enter into joint work in the future, because the post 2008 economic crisis and the rise of mass unemployment will undoubtedly put more aggressive street fascism back on the agenda in the years to come  - witness the rise of the EDL provocations- and I'm afraid us old gits are just too old now to take our place in the line again ! Though I'll organise the tea back at base.


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## ayatollah (Jan 28, 2011)

cogg said:


> At last, the book anti-fascists have been waiting to for years is out on the
> 28th July.
> 
> I seem to have joined a dead thread here - having only just stumbled on this discussion a bit late - anyway - in the hope its still ongoing - I'm still trying to get the book "Beating the fascists" from Amazon - not in stock apparently - not yet a best seller then ? If this thread is dead its probably too late to rehash Tilzey and Hann's own book again - but as a participant at the time my view is that despite the book being often only loosely connected to exact events in many places, ie, its not a rigorous historical work. Nevertheless as a work of anti fascist propaganda , a book that captures the spirit of that era, and might encourage new generations anti fascists into the struggle when required, I think it is a success. And let's face it comrades - it's light hearted style will, rightly or wrongly mean it will have outsold "Beating the Fascists" twenty to one I'm sad to say..So apart from my own anger at the use of unnecessary initials in the book (but noone has had their collar felt since, so I've calmed down now) I think the book is actually OK - not as history, but as agitational propaganda. Just a thought. What a soppy old liberal I've become - Where's the ANGER !


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## LiamO (Jan 28, 2011)

Fuck off you soppy old liberal


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## love detective (Jan 28, 2011)

> I'm still trying to get the book "Beating the fascists" from Amazon



It's not available on Amazon yet (batch of copies have been sitting at customs in Southampton docks since christmas eve!) but you can get it from the IWCA here:- 

http://beatingthefascists.org/

If you order now it'll be posted tomorrow


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## ayatollah (Jan 29, 2011)

I think you'll have to sort out the Amazon supply issue pronto if you want this book to reach a really large audience. Snake eyed capitalists that they are, nevertheless Amazon totally dominate the book supply market. I got my copy of  "No Surrender" easily enough from Amazon (and I've already paid my money to order it from them now). So looks like I might have a bit of a wait.


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## trevhagl (Jan 29, 2011)

ayatollah said:


> I think you'll have to sort out the Amazon supply issue pronto if you want this book to reach a really large audience. Snake eyed capitalists that they are, nevertheless Amazon totally dominate the book supply market. I got my copy of  "No Surrender" easily enough from Amazon (and I've already paid my money to order it from them now). So looks like I might have a bit of a wait.


 
whats No Surrender?


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## audiotech (Jan 29, 2011)

Freudian slip? 

'No Retreat'


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## ayatollah (Jan 29, 2011)

Oops , yes "No Retreat" it is: a slightly careless mistake... hopefully not Freudian though. Fortunately Amazon did actually  send me the Tilzey and Hann Book at the time, so I must have got the title right then..... rather than the collected wit and wisdom of Ian Paisley !


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## LiamO (Jan 29, 2011)

The floor is yours Ayatollah. What would you like to kick off with?

I would be more than happy to engage in any discussion you would care to start. I share your views on Steve Tilzeys early career and have chatted to him recently. I suppose we agreed to differ on one or two things, but could also remember some times of great comraderie.


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## ayatollah (Jan 30, 2011)

Thanks. Glad you still meet "Fishface", and hopefully Dennis et al on occasions - Please give them all my best regards. I'm obviously keen to read "Beating the Fascists" so I can comment from knowledge of the actual book- though my mistake in handing my cash to Amazon for a copy seems likely to delay that somewhat !  Having been taken aback by the vituperative hatred of Searchlight exhibitted in many reviews and posts I was going to again be all liberal and say how despite the formal break in relations in Manchester with Searchlight in the early 80's - placing us well ahead of the curve on the Left by decades - that I personally knew that Searchlight had done lots of good work against the fascists over the years - indeed I had done a few "projects" with them myself , and since no-one had been lifted, it was hard to believe that all the hatred of them was justified -- HOWEVER.... I've just read the 1983 Anarchy mag article on www.katesharpleylibrary.net and I'm still in shock ! Bloody Hell. Pat on our collective backs for cutting off relations with them when we did !  I just thought they were a bunch of manipulative, informational anally retentive, plotters - but this stuff - RA cutting off relations in ,was it as late as 1998 ?)was obviously quite late in the day... It must give you lads the shivers too.


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## butchersapron (Jan 30, 2011)

This is all in public right -you know that?


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## Joe Reilly (Jan 31, 2011)

ayatollah said:


> Thanks. Glad you still meet "Fishface", and hopefully Dennis et al on occasions - Please give them all my best regards. I'm obviously keen to read "Beating the Fascists" so I can comment from knowledge of the actual book- though my mistake in handing my cash to Amazon for a copy seems likely to delay that somewhat !  Having been taken aback by the vituperative hatred of Searchlight exhibitted in many reviews and posts I was going to again be all liberal and say how despite the formal break in relations in Manchester with Searchlight in the early 80's - placing us well ahead of the curve on the Left by decades - that I personally knew that Searchlight had done lots of good work against the fascists over the years - indeed I had done a few "projects" with them myself , and since no-one had been lifted, it was hard to believe that all the hatred of them was justified -- HOWEVER.... I've just read the 1983 Anarchy mag article on www.katesharpleylibrary.net and I'm still in shock ! Bloody Hell. Pat on our collective backs for cutting off relations with them when we did !  I just thought they were a bunch of manipulative, informational anally retentive, plotters - but this stuff - RA cutting off relations in ,was it as late as 1998 ?)was obviously quite late in the day... It must give you lads the shivers too.



Just for the record 'relations' between RA/AFA and Searchlight ended in early 1993. For some years previous to the cessation, there was controlled contact via hand picked individuals who were fully aware of GG's, let's call it 'mixed loyalties' and were in position precisely to filter out the good info (and contrary to rumour there was on occassion the odd nugget) from the bad. Given the identity of at least one of the AFA reps any 'shivering' was most likely to be on Searchlight's side. 

It was only when Searchlight sought to influence AFA from without, by circumventing the previous arrangement, and working through placements within AFA, that contact with them was formally proscribed in about '95. Leeds branch were cited in Dec 1996, and suspended along with their Huddersfield satellite in July 1997.  

I'm not sure where the 1998 date comes from (it popped up in a review of BTF recently as well) but is as is plain to see rather wide of the mark.


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## solidyeoman (Jan 31, 2011)

'On another point raised - the suspension of Class War from AFA. I was the person (with the completely useless GR)tasked to carry out the investigation by the AFA Steering Group. I was shocked at the glee with which so many on the Left sniped and badmouthed Class War , but then NOONE was prepared to make any detail statements to the enquiry to back up the gossip- Witchhunting seemed to be VERY popular on the Left. No sooner than I had reported there was no case to answer on Class War, then Bugger me other Lefties tried to expel Red Action , and demanded another GRAND ENQUIRY - into RA this time - such FUN!! I was able to quash the demand for another Witchhunt "Enquiry" at the next Steering Group Meeting'

Interesting post re CW suspension Ayatollah and that you conducted the inquiry. I did the written CW reply to the inquiry rebutting the searchlight allegations.The problem was that as soon as one lot of allegations were dealt with another lot hove into view and Searchlight would forget all about the earlier lot.Politically the allegations worked to an extent in that CW was forced onto the defensive for a year rather than going forward at The time when it was at it's height. I think a lot on the Left were pleased to see CW cop it for all the slagging off we'd given them!


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## LiamO (Feb 1, 2011)

ayatollah said:


> Thanks. Glad you still meet "Fishface"


 
Just to clarify... I spoke to Steve twice by telephone, I haven't met him in many years. Whilst our conversation was cordial and fraternal (and I genuinely like Steve as a fella) he was never in any doubt as to where my loyalties lie, nor should anybody else be.

I also meet and phone another old mate of yours, from Salford, fairly regularly and will let him know he can contact you through this forum.

As regards Searchlight, I think Joe's post puts the record straight. Yes they were handy 'allies' on occasion in terms of 'United Front' work, but they were always playing a chess game - and basically playing all sides as and when they needed to. Truly slippery bastards. Handing onfo over to the plod left, right and centre, whilst simulataneously engaging in nefarious night time activities of their own, when it suited.


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## LiamO (Feb 1, 2011)

solidyeoman said:


> Interesting post re CW suspension Ayatollah and that you conducted the inquiry. I did the written CW reply to the inquiry rebutting the searchlight allegations.The problem was that as soon as one lot of allegations were dealt with another lot hove into view and Searchlight would forget all about the earlier lot.Politically the allegations worked to an extent in that CW was forced onto the defensive for a year rather than going forward at The time when it was at it's height. I think a lot on the Left were pleased to see CW cop it for all the slagging off we'd given them!


 
You would be ideally placed to confirm RA's honourable behaviour throughout then, would you not? I only ask because some younger anarchists eseem to have a jaundiced version of these events.


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## ayatollah (Feb 2, 2011)

Interesting post re CW suspension Ayatollah and that you conducted the inquiry. I did the written CW reply to the inquiry rebutting the searchlight allegations.The problem was that as soon as one lot of allegations were dealt with another lot hove into view and Searchlight would forget all about the earlier lot.Politically the allegations worked to an extent in that CW was forced onto the defensive for a year rather than going forward at The time when it was at it's height. I think a lot on the Left were pleased to see CW cop it for all the slagging off we'd given them![/QUOTE]

Yes solidyeoman, it was a very sorry business the Class War expulsion/suspension - both because the charges were bollocks - but also because even after the suspension was lifted CW never really felt comfortable again to participate fully in AFA. I was personally particularly annoyed that many anarchists were put off working with AFA by all that sectarianism ,because I  was to spend  much of my anti fascist activity time  in 86/87 working in Liverpool, where I had a job then, helping to build a thriving AFA branch alongside a really  great bunch of (very) young anarchists - I think from DAM, but I forget now. After I left Liverpool in late 87 they continued to operate a thriving branch for years. When I say "young" I mean young - it was the only time I had experienced people turning up at political meetings with skate boards !  I felt such a sad old git on occasions - but their enthusiasm was inspiring.


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## LiamO (Feb 3, 2011)

I see both ayatollah and yeoman suffer from a fear of white space in their posts.

It's t'interweb lads, there's plenty of room.


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## ayatollah (Feb 3, 2011)

I will leave more white space in my text

I will leave more white space in my text

I will leave more white space in my text

I will leave more white space in my text


Only another  96 lines to go ...


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## LiamO (Feb 3, 2011)

ayatollah said:


> I will leave more white space in my text
> 
> I will leave more white space in my text
> 
> ...


 
you teachers don't still give out lines, do yez?


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## audiotech (Feb 5, 2011)

What is it with you, white spaces and commas?


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## TopCat (Feb 6, 2011)

LiamO said:


> You would be ideally placed to confirm RA's honourable behaviour throughout then, would you not? I only ask because some younger anarchists eseem to have a jaundiced version of these events.


 
I was there in CW at the time. Some felt that RA could have backed us up more. Going back into AFA later and working along with Searchlight for a number of years, nearly a decade? It gave credibility, we could argue all day about how much, but credibility still to the Searchlight smear against CW. I think though if we (both CW and RA) had better personal relations at the time we would have handled it differently. There were a few people in both groups who got on well, but a certain almost cultural mistrust was sometimes detectable.


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## love detective (Feb 6, 2011)

love detective said:


> There was a review of the book in the latest issue of Freedom - scanned copy of it here (PDF)


 
Scanned copy of part two of the review here


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## Red O (Feb 8, 2011)

One of the analytical points made in the book is that if the only opposition to the centre is coming from the right, the centre will end up responding to and appropriating the right's agenda: "the real potency of the fascist renaissance across Europe is far better judged by how easily its appearance on a national stage can first panic, and then stampede, an erstwhile political centre to the right". This is how the BNP have reacted to Cameron's multiculturalism speech over the weekend:

http://bnp...org.uk/news/cameron%E2%80%99s-%E2%80%98war-multiculturalism%E2%80%99-speech-%E2%80%93-another-milestone-%E2%80%98griffinisation%E2%80%99-british-politics

*Cameron’s ‘War on Multiculturalism’ Speech – Another Milestone in the ‘Griffinisation’ of British Politics*

Sat, 05/02/2011 - 14:23 |  BNP News

“A further huge leap for our ideas into the political mainstream.” That is how Nick Griffin MEP sees David Cameron’s self-styled ‘declaration of war against multiculturalism in a speech at an international security conference in Munich.

“A few years ago we had the then Labour Home Secretary David Blunkett admitting that ‘multiculturalism has failed’. Then Gordon Brown used and legitimised our call for ‘British Jobs for British Workers’,” Mr Griffin said in his reaction to Mr Cameron’s speech.

“Just last month we heard Jack Straw stealing whole chunks of speeches I made back in 2005 about the sick racist paedophilia of Muslim drug-rape gangs. And now we have the Prime Minister admitting that the British National Party in our 30-year campaign against the unworkable folly of multiculturalism,” Mr Griffin said.


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## LiamO (Feb 8, 2011)

audiotech said:


> What is it with you, white spaces and commas?


 
I would just like to point out that my 'white spaces' issue is to do with text layout and not to do wiv 'lebensraum' in sarf east Lahndon.

The use, or lack of, white space is (for many people) a deciding issue on whether or not they read something. Some people should use more of it because their legitimate points are lost when people can't be arsed to read densely typed text.

It would also be better if some other posters (8dG and cry-baby for example) typed all of theirs very closely - so less people would feel obliged to read their inane ramblings and rantings.


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## Joe Reilly (Feb 8, 2011)

TopCat said:


> I was there in CW at the time. Some felt that RA could have backed us up more. Going back into AFA later and working along with Searchlight for a number of years, nearly a decade? It gave credibility, we could argue all day about how much, but credibility still to the Searchlight smear against CW. I think though if we (both CW and RA) had better personal relations at the time we would have handled it differently. There were a few people in both groups who got on well, but a certain almost cultural mistrust was sometimes detectable.



i'm not really sure why RA's role is still being cast in collaborationist colours. RA walked out and stayed out of an organisation it had helped found just six months earlier, until charges against CW were found to be without substance. In other words RA suspended its own involvement in protest at the decision to bring charges to begin with. In that period AFA activity all but ceased to exist. When RA re-entered it did so with its eyes open. Indeed as has been mentioned before it was RA who were up for expulsion next. So by fighting from within to defeat the second attempt at a coup did RA give 'credibility' to the smear campaign against itself? Hardly, particularly as the RA counter attack eventually saw the wholescale clearing of the stables and a decisive AFA re-launch in 1989. DAM re-joined but CW still didn't?

 So instead of happily 'working alongside Searchlight for 10 years' as is alleged, the alliance such as it was had formally come to end by early '89. 

It is not denied that there was informal contact on occassion after that, as there was with the ANL, YRE, ARA and so forth. But as has been stated before, when your on the back foot your not in a position to hand-pick your allies. As to who got the most out of these tete a tetes is moot.

 That it was Searchlight that was looking to avenge itself on AFA via the World in Action documentary, followed by the planned Panorama expose, (with No Retreat apparently published by someone central to the failed Panorama plot) may provide circumstantial evidence, as to who after a period of reflection, Searchlight came to understand was using who.

The clear out included Searchlight btw.


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## ayatollah (Feb 8, 2011)

Red O said:


> One of the analytical points made in the book is that if the only opposition to the centre is coming from the right, the centre will end up responding to and appropriating the right's agenda: "the real potency of the fascist renaissance across Europe is far better judged by how easily its appearance on a national stage can first panic, and then stampede, an erstwhile political centre to the right". This is how the BNP have reacted to Cameron's multiculturalism speech over the weekend:
> 
> Yes indeed, worrying times ahead. And in the UK at present the Left in its various groupings is probably as weak as it has ever been in terms of being any kind of mass movement - certainly one with real roots in the organised working class. In this vaccuum the fascists can posture in all sorts of pseudo leftish campaigns - and no doubt will do on a wide front. The German fascists could appear very Left indeed when it suited them in the late 1920's.
> 
> ...


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## TopCat (Feb 8, 2011)

Joe Reilly said:


> i'm not really sure why RA's role is still being cast in collaborationist colours. RA walked out and stayed out of an organisation it had helped found just six months earlier, until charges against CW were found to be without substance. In other words RA suspended its own involvement in protest at the decision to bring charges to begin with. In that period AFA activity all but ceased to exist. When RA re-entered it did so with its eyes open. Indeed as has been mentioned before it was RA who were up for expulsion next. So by fighting from within to defeat the second attempt at a coup did RA give 'credibility' to the smear campaign against itself? Hardly, particularly as the RA counter attack eventually saw the wholescale clearing of the stables and a decisive AFA re-launch in 1989. DAM re-joined but CW still didn't?
> 
> So instead of happily 'working alongside Searchlight for 10 years' as is alleged, the alliance such as it was had formally come to end by early '89.
> 
> ...


 
I'm trying to explain how people felt and how this informed the subsequent refusal to be involved with AFA on an organisational basis. I did not accuse you all of being collaborationists, it was a matter of perceptions. 

Many of CW still linked up with AFA/RA on an informal personal basis. The point I made about relations not being of the best was of huge importance too. I wonder who was behind some of the stirring and what their motivations were to be honest. 

My side certainly contained some people who did not assist in the fight nor wanted to. This may have been due to squeamishness. It may have been motivated by people having hidden agendas. It has never became clear thus far. 

I do know that CW attracted a lot of attention from the state at this time. I regret the lost opportunities that resulted. I don't know if you remember me or not. I do hope that if you do, you know I am being sincere.


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## LiamO (Feb 8, 2011)

TopCat said:


> I'm trying to explain how people felt and how this informed the subsequent refusal to be involved with AFA on an organisational basis. *I did not accuse you all of being collaborationists*, it was a matter of perceptions....
> 
> ...I regret the lost opportunities that resulted. I don't know if you remember me or not. I do hope that if you do, you know I am being sincere.



Outright accusation? No. Implicit one? Oh yes.

But look TC, I know it's hard to get the essence of what you are saying across in the written word - as it is all open to interpretation and filtered through our own perceptual lenses. 

But I will say this. I am really glad you made your comment above and ones earlier on this thread. They have prompted comprehensive responses from Joe. 

If your perception of what transpired is at odds with AFA's, then I'm sure you are not alone in that. Therefore I think it is helpful in many ways that your sincere questions/points have resulted in good, honest answers. We all benefit from respectful, honest exchange and these answers can help clear up the matter for anybody reading this thread.


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## TopCat (Feb 8, 2011)

To be frank it's not a subject that gets discussed _at all_ amongst my old chums. I have felt more than a tad uncomfortable raising it  here in such a public way. I see your point however that for many who think they knew what went on, even though they were not there, this exchange may help clarify matters. Whatever anyone thinks, I always regarded RA with respect.


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## LiamO (Feb 9, 2011)

TopCat said:


> Whatever anyone thinks, I always regarded RA with respect.


 
I think that comes through quite clearly in your posts - as does the 'dissonance' that led to your questions.

Your perception of the events around Searchlight was clearly at odds with the respect with which you regard(ed) Red Action so I think it was really healthy that you raised the issue.

This is all very grown up, isn't it? Would it be better if we called each other 'cunts?


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## Proper Tidy (Feb 9, 2011)

You cunt


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## LiamO (Feb 9, 2011)

and you, Sir, are...










an excellent judge of character!


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## miktheword (Feb 9, 2011)

ayatollah;11501065][QUOTE=Red O said:


> One of the analytical points made in the book is that if the only opposition to the centre is coming from the right, the centre will end up responding to and appropriating the right's agenda: "the real potency of the fascist renaissance across Europe is far better judged by how easily its appearance on a national stage can first panic, and then stampede, an erstwhile political centre to the right". This is how the BNP have reacted to Cameron's multiculturalism speech over the weekend:
> 
> Yes indeed, worrying times ahead. And in the UK at present the Left in its various groupings is probably as weak as it has ever been in terms of being any kind of mass movement - certainly one with real roots in the organised working class. In this vacuuum the fascists can posture in all sorts of pseudo leftish campaigns - and no doubt will do on a wide front. The German fascists could appear very Left indeed when it suited them in the late 1920's.
> 
> ...


 
Ayatollah (speaking as someone who got involved a lot later than you; late 80s to early naughties) regarding the last part of your post;
I think its clear that the Left couldn't pull the same forces as it could in the 70s / 80s. How much of that failure is due to the difference in political organisation and level of struggle, I would say is quite big. As you'll know there were 3 day weeks under a Labour govt, an organised and active NF with a definite manifesto who were a household  name as a party at least.
The same is not (yet) true of the EDL. At present, they seem to be lacking in ambition and organisation to be a new NF.

I agree there's a growing challenge, not faced before and not faced up to yet. Whatever the outcome of the EDL, it can be seen as a symptom of a disenfranchised, pissed off white working class, that will rear its head in some other way.

Mobilising street forces / squads is not the way to fight them at the moment I don't think. As well as many racists, there are also a huge number in their ranks who would hate to see themselves a such; I know some have given clumps to others who have been racist on their marches. (I take your point generally though, that if there was an organised fash presence ready to take up the mantle in these interesting political times we have ahead, the Left is in no place to respond; and this more than 15 years after 'Filling the Vacuuum')

A question I want to pose really, in response, (for another thread perhaps,) 'what attempts have there been to engage with EDL, is it seen as futile, are they dismissed as racists, etc? by The Left.

with the NF in the 70s, it was easier to mobilise disparate groups in opposition; of what makes up The Left in this country now, I bet there would be wide disagreements on how to counter, or even utilise the disenchantments of those in the EDL.


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## ayatollah (Feb 10, 2011)

Interesting points Miktheword. Though I have to say I can't really see the EDL as just a bunch of confused disgruntled working class white blokes out for the odd afternoon stroll.. Their specific targetting of the (already demonized)Muslim community - and quite politically clever placards like "women aren't property" - shows a quite clever attempt to play the anti Muslim racist card whilst not get branded as out and out fascists. 

I see the EDL street actions as a politically linked "street action" component of the BNP "respectable" ballot box tactic - whether intentional or accidental. Whether linked in the background to the BNP or not - EDL demos certainly give the bootboy fraternity something more interesting to do than  election canvassing door to door ! 

The problem with an electoral strategy for fascists is that winning a few seats on a local council just doesn't give them the power required to invade Poland, or deport ethnic minorities ! It would certainly be interesting to know more about the motivations of those who go on EDL demos - and any BNP input - There are probably quite a mix of motives - as with those who vote BNP. 

At the end of the day though a genuine socialist movement is the best defence against the siren appeal to a disgruntled white working class of the "fools socialism" of fascism. Bloody obvious stuff I agree - how to build such a force in the wreckage of the British Left is obviously the challenge.


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## Red O (Feb 10, 2011)

And more:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/ce56c4dc-3478-11e0-9ebc-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1DaXQPhPM

*Le Pen daughter applauds Cameron*

By Peggy Hollinger in Paris

Published: February 9 2011 18:43 | Last updated: February 9 2011 18:43

Marine Le Pen, the new leader of France’s extreme right National Front, has congratulated David Cameron, UK prime minister, for what she claimed was an endorsement of her party’s views on the failure of multiculturalism and immigration.

Ms Le Pen, elected to lead the National Front last month, said Mr Cameron’s rejection of multiculturalism in a speech in Munich last week marked a clear shift in British and European politics. 

“It is exactly this type of statement that has barred us from public life for 30 years,” she told the Financial Times. “I sense an evolution at European level, even in classic governments. I can only congratulate him.”


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## The39thStep (Feb 10, 2011)

Red O said:


> And more:
> 
> http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/ce56c4dc-3478-11e0-9ebc-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1DaXQPhPM
> 
> ...


 
which is exactly the same line as Griffin came out with. The trouble is that within every big lie is a grain of truth, the problem for us us which is the grain of truth and what is our response. 


For years the liberal and cobweb left has issued just a straight rebuttal but from a working class view official multiculturalism has been divisive and its the right wing who are benefiting from that division.


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## Proper Tidy (Feb 11, 2011)

The39thStep said:


> For years the liberal and cobweb left has issued just a straight rebuttal but from a working class view official multiculturalism has been divisive and its the right wing who are benefiting from that division.


 
Innit


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## audiotech (Feb 11, 2011)

Yeah, let's ban US baseball caps.


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## LiamO (Feb 11, 2011)

audiotech said:


> Yeah, let's ban US baseball caps.



... and just allow english ones...

Look audiotech, do you find this whole 'failure of multiculturalism' issue problematic? If so,why not state your case instead of hiding behind snide, drive-by comments?


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## treelover (Feb 11, 2011)

Snide comments are this boards bread and butter, its also funny when some people make consistent comments about the alienation, etc of the working class they are smeared, while others who say the same thing perhaps in more detail are lauded or agreed with.


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## past caring (Feb 11, 2011)

Cry me a river....


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## LiamO (Feb 11, 2011)

treelover said:


> Snide comments are this boards bread and butter, its also funny when some people make consistent comments about the alienation, etc of the working class they are smeared, while others who say the same thing perhaps in more detail are lauded or agreed with.



so stop fuckin crying and make your point... stand your corner... man/woman up ffs.

How do you expect other posters to follow your cryptic whinging? Ihave no idea what you are on about.


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## ayatollah (Feb 11, 2011)

It's a short leg that doesn't reach the knee



Hey, cryptic or what, figure that out LiamO !


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## Citizen66 (Feb 11, 2011)

Well i'm stumped.


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## Demu (Feb 20, 2011)

Hi Ayatollah, good to hear you are still around.

Have you got hold of the book yet?

Apparently the printers are still having to deal with threats of legal action from the partner of Hann after the book revealed the truth about his past.

I believe that a clear and unequivocal response has been made via her solicitors carter ruck which sets the facts of the matter before her. I doubt any competent laywer would advise her to proceed after receiving this.

Perhaps her friends at Searchlight will finally tell her the truth….I doubt it.

Funnily enough, according to Hann’s CV in No Retreat, he was an activist in Manchester, while you were still in the North West…..I kid you not!


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## ayatollah (Feb 20, 2011)

Hi DEMU - Yes still around - just very old and knackered .... gawd wot's that just dropped off now !....

Still not got hold of  Beating the Fascists - (order  with Amazon - still "out of stock"). Yes , at least from this thread's information, Hann does appear to have been that figure all too common on the Left - the street fighting fantasist. I certainly never met him.

Still, maybe some of his stuff in "No Retreat" is true... ?   I have to say I still think the book is a good rollicking read - I liked Tilzey's bit anyway . I just view it as useful anti-fascist propaganda . After all - I was very inspired as a young man by Victor Serge's  excellent "memoires of a revolutionary" -- but as far as I know the bugger made most of it up ! His old comrades probably read it and said "that bloody Victor - never made it out of the pub"  .

The thing I was really gobsmacked about in Tilzey's tales in "No Retreat" is his account of being "accidentally" on the NF coach in Aytoun street when it was rudely attacked by outraged young workers (in old SWP parlance) ! I'd Never heard that story before ! To think our long association could so easily have been ended before it began by a lobbed brick on Big Noses head if he hadn't ducked when the coach windows went in ! - allegedly.


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## Blagsta (Feb 20, 2011)

ayatollah said:


> After all - I was very inspired as a young man by Victor Serge's  excellent "memoires of a revolutionary" -- but as far as I know the bugger made most of it up !



Really?  Never heard that before.  Excellent book.  Anyone shed any more light on this?


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## bignose1 (Feb 21, 2011)

ayatollah said:


> Hi DEMU - Yes still around - just very old and knackered .... gawd wot's that just dropped off now !....
> 
> Still not got hold of  Beating the Fascists - (order  with Amazon - still "out of stock"). Yes , at least from this thread's information, Hann does appear to have been that figure all too common on the Left - the street fighting fantasist. I certainly never met him.
> 
> ...


 
That you Penney....fuck me youve got some fucking nerve...big nose... youd give jimmy durante a run for his money. You can be as gobsmacked as you want you skinny prick and you should know you led the fucking attack.


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## ayatollah (Feb 21, 2011)

Hi Steve. Good to hear you are in such fine fettle. If you read futher back on this thread to page 34 you'll see I've been busy defending your heroic  anti-fascist credentials (which I do stand by Steve ).

Not many people on this thread (and others) have had a good word to say for you Steve ... but I do.........Twaaaaaatttt !
Just a joke Bignose ! (with acknowledgement to the great  Punk Poet , John Cooper Clarke)  

Fair point on the Schnozzel front - but who but people over 100 years old would remember Jimmy Durante  !

The extra amusing thing (not covered in No Retreat ) about the pre "Battle of Lewisham"   Manchester morning "event" (apart from your astonishing role - as told in No Retreat of course) , ie, the Aytoun street "do"  is that Mike Luft of Searchlight fame was arrested immediately afterwards - but eventually aquitted of all charges. Later he bitterly complained to me that the fash had mistaken his bearded visage for mine ! - and he had been just standing around observing events ! (only too true) He also claimed that  he had organised a "team of Indian wrestlers" to attack the Fash coach - "but they were forced to call their daring op off because of the rough types who did do the job" ! He did actually say that - I kid you not - What a guy !


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## bignose1 (Feb 21, 2011)

ayatollah said:


> Hi Steve. Good to hear you are in such fine fettle. If you read futher back on this thread to page 34 you'll see I've been busy defending your heroic  anti-fascist credentials (which I do stand by Steve ).
> 
> Not many people on this thread (and others) have had a good word to say for you Steve ... but I do.........Twaaaaaatttt !
> Just a joke Bignose ! (with acknowledgement to the great  Punk Poet , John Cooper Clarke)
> ...


 
Hi JP  Glad you took it in the right vein. Hows it going. Talk of a squad reunion might be some way off but I if I ever bump into Ms Mole Ill give her your regrads....firmly but fairly... Squad Motto


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## ayatollah (Feb 21, 2011)

I'm fine Steve - just a lot older. But aren't we all.

The motto was "Vicious but Fair" as I recall !  (From the Monty Python sketch about the "Dinsdales" ie. the Krays... as in   "Yeh he nailed my head to a coffee table ... but I deserved it mind you  ... always vicious but fair,  the Dinsdales" )

Yes , a Squad reunion... lovely. Reminds me of an ancient Private Eye cartoon of a group of genteel middle class aged folks in classic cardigans,twinsets and pearls, slippers, flying geese on the wall,  having a lovely cuppa and cakes round a table ... with the line  "I just love these Angry Brigade Reunions , don't you Mavis "


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## bignose1 (Feb 21, 2011)

ayatollah said:


> I'm fine Steve - just a lot older. But aren't we all.
> 
> The motto was "Vicious but Fair" as I recall !  (From the Monty Python sketch about the "Dinsdales" ie. the Krays... as in   "Yeh he nailed my head to a coffee table ... but I deserved it mind you  ... always vicious but fair,  the Dinsdales" )
> 
> Yes , a Squad reunion... lovely. Reminds me of an ancient Private Eye cartoon of a group of genteel middle class aged folks in classic cardigans,twinsets and pearls, slippers, flying geese on the wall,  having a lovely cuppa and cakes round a table ... with the line  "I just love these Angry Brigade Reunions , don't you Mavis "


 
Yeah Vicious but Fair...some laffs a few tears...plenty of cunning plans...I loved our plotting sessions...wouldnt say we were up there with Army of Crime but we were a tight bunch and Ive great memories. Remember that first day in Strangeways we looked like we were out of Oliver with the clobber they gave us..
Ps How old would Jolley be now..


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## ayatollah (Feb 21, 2011)

I'll always remember sitting in the cells after the trial, with you and the other Rochdale case  lads . "let's play I Spy to pass the time" you suggested.  " I Spy something beginning with "C". 

We just couldn't  bloody guess it.  How many bloody objects could there be in a cell for gods sake ?

"What is it then  Tilzey ?" we demanded. 

"Convicts" you triumphantly announced !

How we laughed !.... or something


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## Anudder Oik (Mar 3, 2011)

I liked the account by Liam O of the events at Jubilee Gardens. It would have been a valid addition to the book IMHO.

Anyone got any reminiscences of Waterloo? Like to hear more about it.


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## bignose1 (Mar 4, 2011)

ayatollah said:


> I'll always remember sitting in the cells after the trial, with you and the other Rochdale case  lads . "let's play I Spy to pass the time" you suggested.  " I Spy something beginning with "C".
> 
> We just couldn't  bloody guess it.  How many bloody objects could there be in a cell for gods sake ?
> 
> ...



My dad was a tailor, my grandfather was a tailor and my great great grandfather was a tailor...so I thought Id follow suit...

Just walked from where i work and came across the spot where (ahem).. Isaacs(of you'd better check me out Im connected fame !!) got his final (cough) warning..I laff thinking back of his dogs exiting a rapid stage left..all bark and dribble but definately nowhere in the loyalty stakes ...community justice at its finest.


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## bignose1 (Mar 4, 2011)

Shell island circa 1979...you were well impressed when I correctly identified the indigenous but rare natterjack toad...I have a few talents and frog spotting is one of them. I am also pretty good on fish(obviously).

I also recall being ticked off by you on numerous occasions for saying 'tricky isaac'(no relation to previously mentioned)


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## ayatollah (Mar 4, 2011)

I still remember at my school (many years ago now) , if another kid wouldn't share a chocolate bar his fellow pupils would often say "you jew " in reproach , with no real understanding at all of what that hateful expression really meant. Hopefully  British culture has advanced considerably since then - but given the BNP election showing in Barnsley yesterday, maybe not.


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## malatesta32 (Mar 7, 2011)

Crivvens, just read through the whole of this thread which took 2 sittings. Noticed someone had pasted the review by ‘Malatesta’ in it (#529). Not sure why the review is  ‘sniffy’ as it says that the book is a good read (and its been reread several times here).  
Joe Reilly rightly pointed out the error in our naming Graeme Atkinson as being the one charged by the SWP to dissolve the squads, it was John Deason according to Tilzey  (p88). Apologies. The web quotes were to show that the fascists took AFA very seriously and that the new book is not exaggerated hooligan stuff as some will no doubt accuse it of being. 

From experience AFA Northern Network was much more anarchist especially in places like Liverpool and Bolton. The book does focus more on London and Red Action and it is debatable that it gives an in-depth description of the activities up north. The idea of ‘writing your own’ is admittedly problematic as many people could not fill a book - as Tilzey and Hann’s book showed – but there is also the issue of time as well as memory. 

Reading the posts from this thread there are already great stories like Liam’s  #809 as well as more organisational stuff like Ayatollah #839. Researching the ‘Malatesta’ articles revealed there is a serious lack of photo documentation on the web as well. What should also be noted is how funny some of the stories are- BTF and No Retreat are very entertaining reads despite any criticisms. 

It could be a good idea to get a website/blog to collate recollections from anti-fascists from the day, as well as those ongoing to do with the EDL. Easy enough. These could eventually be ordered, edited and published. There is a dearth of books on physical opposition to fascism but a great many stories floating about. Every antifascist has 1 good 1 at least! It needs to be organised as oral history projects are organised on a purely subjective basis but contextualised by an overall commentary. This is something we would be interested in helping co-ordinating. Anyone else?


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## LiamO (Mar 7, 2011)

*Write yer own...*



malatesta32 said:


> Reading the posts from this thread there are already great stories like Liam’s  #809 as well as more organisational stuff like Ayatollah #839. Researching the ‘Malatesta’ articles revealed there is a serious lack of photo documentation on the web as well. What should also be noted is how funny some of the stories are- BTF and No Retreat are very entertaining reads despite any criticisms.
> 
> It could be a good idea to get a website/blog to collate recollections from anti-fascists from the day, as well as those ongoing to do with the EDL. Easy enough. These could eventually be ordered, edited and published. There is a dearth of books on physical opposition to fascism but a great many stories floating about. Every antifascist has 1 good 1 at least! It needs to be organised as oral history projects are organised on a purely subjective basis but contextualised by an overall commentary. This is something we would be interested in helping co-ordinating. Anyone else?



Beaten to it! 

BTF took years to write and a long time to publish. This was necessary because of the scope and size of the project and was, IMO, well worth it. 

Rather than a website/talking shop I would favour a straight forward...

 "I am/we are compiling a book of anecdotal recollections of the anti-fascist struggle in the 80's & 90's. It will be readily available (and probably free of charge) as an e-book within 3 months. It will be an organic document in that it will grow with time, so people can add to it as it goes on.

If you would like to contribute... do feel free to do so. If you would prefer a protracted, circular debate about who has the right to publish what, on behalf of whom... do feel free to g'way and fuck yourself" 

There is a time for 'democracy' and inclusive discussion... and a time for just getting on and doing a thing.


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## malatesta32 (Mar 7, 2011)

agreed liam. i would say you were off to flying start with yr post mentioned earlier. im just trying to sound out what other antifascists feel about documenting the ongoing struggle as well as the AFA years similar. with the last of international brigaders etc its a timely reminder that we aint getting any younger and this oral history is vital to preserve. the antifascist struggle still goes on. 
i think BTF is a cracker- i started reading it again this morning and it is funny in parts. that aspect should never be excluded cos even tho we were often in scarey stiautions we still maintained a sense of humour!  
[


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## manny-p (Mar 7, 2011)

LiamO said:


> Beaten to it!
> 
> BTF took years to write and a long time to publish. This was necessary because of the scope and size of the project and was, IMO, well worth it.
> 
> ...


 
Nice one, look forward to reading it.


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## manny-p (Mar 7, 2011)

ayatollah said:


> I still remember at my school (many years ago now) , if another kid wouldn't share a chocolate bar his fellow pupils would often say "you jew " in reproach , with no real understanding at all of what that hateful expression really meant. Hopefully  British culture has advanced considerably since then - but given the BNP election showing in Barnsley yesterday, maybe not.


 This was still happening in 2004 when I was still in school. So sadly not.


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## audiotech (Mar 7, 2011)

It was indeed John 'Spurs against the naartzis' Deason.


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## ayatollah (Mar 7, 2011)

LiamO said:


> Beaten to it!
> 
> BTF took years to write and a long time to publish. This was necessary because of the scope and size of the project and was, IMO, well worth it.
> 
> ...



Yep, sounds like a good proposal, for someone to co-ordinate . E books have to be the way to go to reach a wider audience. Only problem with anti fascist recollections though is that many of them involve recollections of "events" that would be of interest to the  courts just as much as anti fascists - so much vagueness and massaged detail is always required - which often somewhat dilutes the understanding of the events themselves. Still, it's still a good idea - if only to give useful tips on what to do, and not to do, to a new generation of anti fascists.


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## fiannanahalba (Mar 7, 2011)

The young ones need to learn.


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## ayatollah (Mar 8, 2011)

fiannanahalba said:


> The young ones need to learn.



I didn't mean to be patronising - it is just the case that each generation of the Left seems doomed to repeat most of the mistakes of the previous generation 

- certainly in terms of  inter group sectarianism stopping the Left working together. 

 Other things though - like an awareness of systematic  state infiltration of groups needs to be constantly remembered by activists. For example, the SWP had a state agent on their  Central Committee, Roger Rosewall, for over 20 years  - for all the years of the IS/SWP's maximum impact in the industrial struggle in the mid 70's , Rosewall was their National Industrial Organiser ! 

There are also all sorts of operational techniques, intelligence gathering   and other methodologies that anti-fascist activists  are more effective knowing about - rather than having to re-learn yet again through trial and error.


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## BlackArab (Mar 8, 2011)

fiannanahalba said:


> The young ones need to learn.



So so true. A few years ago I was a mature student doing a History degree. One week we looked at the racism and the far-right during a study of the 1970s. What became very apparent from my reading is that there is now an almost unchallenged view that the NF/far-right were opposed almost solely by the ANL/RAR activities and given a fatal blow with the election of Thatcher. When I challenged this view, my lecture asked that age old question 'who writes history'.

The BTF is a fascinating and fantastic recollection of events and hopefully will help change the orthodox view I mentioned but it cannot do it alone. More needs to be written and said about militant anti-facism and importantly providing a working-class alternative to the BNP as opposed to just smashing them.

For all you veterans, a massive thanks for your actions back then.


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## Anudder Oik (Mar 8, 2011)

ayatollah said:


> I didn't mean to be patronising - it is just the case that each generation of the Left seems doomed to repeat most of the mistakes of the previous generation
> 
> - certainly in terms of  inter group sectarianism stopping the Left working together.
> 
> ...


 
That last paragraph is true but it is not information that needs to be publicised on the net for all to see. Needs to be kept in the family, so to speak...I think the best or most effective way of sharing this information would be by word of mouth, ie, veterans being invited to talk at meetings of any new groups that develop.


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## The39thStep (Mar 8, 2011)

What new groups? Physical force anti fascism is hardly the tactic that is required currently is it?


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## The39thStep (Mar 8, 2011)

audiotech said:


> It was indeed John 'Spurs against the naartzis' Deason.



Holborrow had a role in that as well and Pete Clark if I remember rightly. Zebrowski as the Full Timer  in West London, Strouthous as the FT in Manchester ( and when he came back North West London)

Holborrow actually came to the Harlesden Branch commitee to grill us all on iviting one of the Hatfield comrades who had been expelled to give their side of the story at a branch meeting.


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## LiamO (Mar 8, 2011)

The39thStep said:


> What new groups? Physical force anti fascism is hardly the tactic that is required currently is it?




We are not talking about an 'Anarchist Cookbook'  'how to...' guide here, are we? To superimpose a 20 year out of date physical anti-fascist model onto the current political situation? That would be the antithesis of everything AFA worked for and believed in. 

Despite the best efforts of many lefties to label and deride them,  AFA always had an either/or/both methodology when weighing up whether a physical or ideological strategy suited a particular context.  

So I don't see a book doing much harm by exposing strategies etc. 

And the technology differences.... makes much of the methodology obsolete

and the passage of time... means the old bill would have minimal interest in pursuing any cases... which are all easily deniable.

tbh... All this cloak and dagger stuff is coming across a little bit indulgent, if not leaning towards "Walter Mitty"...  IMO anything less than a free and frank passing on of all the knowledge and accumulated wisdom is a betrayal of the next generation... but what we will really be passing on is a mindset ( a way of being and thinking) not a blueprint,  because our tactics were 'steam-age'. 

Often we never even had mobile phones - as in not a single one! - nowadays digital technology and social media make a nonsense of 'no platform' and many traditional lefty responses.


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## fiannanahalba (Mar 8, 2011)

ayatollah said:


> I didn't mean to be patronising - it is just the case that each generation of the Left seems doomed to repeat most of the mistakes of the previous generation
> 
> - certainly in terms of  inter group sectarianism stopping the Left working together.
> 
> ...


 
Thanks mate. It really would be good for the new militant  anti fascist activists to get an education from the old school AFA/RA comrades. In my case Manchester/Liverpool/North West [MAFA] and a good set of activists in Glasgow/Scotland. Of course differences from then and now taken into account and work on the alternatives politically as well as the physical and the tactical.


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## Joe Reilly (Mar 8, 2011)

malatesta32 said:


> Crivvens, just read through the whole of this thread which took 2 sittings. Noticed someone had pasted the review by ‘Malatesta’ in it (#529). Not sure why the review is  ‘sniffy’ as it says that the book is a good read (and its been reread several times here)...
> 
> From experience AFA Northern Network was much more anarchist especially in places like Liverpool and Bolton. The book does focus more on London and Red Action and it is debatable that it gives an in-depth description of the activities up north.



The London-centric accussation, though oft repeated, is not actually supported by any evidence. For one, between 1980 and 1995 almost all the major iniatives by the far-right ( NF,B&H, BNP, and C18) tended to centre on the capital. As a consequence the major set pieces by militant anti-fascism happened there as well. When I say major, I mean both in terms of numbers mobilised and arguably national strategic importance - for both sides. Thinking here of the AFA wearing down of the 2000 strong NF marches on Rememberance Day (which until 1985 went entirely unopposed). The B&H Main Event in 1989. The BNP 'Rights for Whites' strategy in East London.  Waterloo in 1992. The 4,000 AFA march through the BNP heartland. The Welling Riot 1993. The 400 right-wingers arrested at the Bloody Sunday demo and so on.The Bermondsey BNP riot, the election of Beackon on the Isle of Dogs and so forth... 

Yes, there are probably hundreds of worthy anecdotes not included, indeed thinking about, there are probably that many from London alone. But at near 170,000 words, a certain discipline was required.  And inevitably the desired 'in -depth description' always followed the narrative. They simply had to. If that is, the ambition was to try and offer a contextualised history, including providing the all-important flavour of events on the ground.


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## The39thStep (Mar 9, 2011)

LiamO said:


> We are not talking about an 'Anarchist Cookbook'  'how to...' guide here, are we? To superimpose a 20 year out of date physical anti-fascist model onto the current political situation? That would be the antithesis of everything AFA worked for and believed in.
> 
> Despite the best efforts of many lefties to label and deride them,  AFA always had an either/or/both methodology when weighing up whether a physical or ideological strategy suited a particular context.
> 
> ...



That's an interesting point to consider Liam


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## manny-p (Mar 9, 2011)

The39thStep said:


> What new groups? Physical force anti fascism is hardly the tactic that is required currently is it?


 

its is here it seems.


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## LiamO (Mar 9, 2011)

So we should write the book in Russian then?


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## manny-p (Mar 9, 2011)

LiamO said:


> So we should write the book in Russian then?


 
That's what I said, wasn't it.....


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## LiamO (Mar 9, 2011)

действительно ли Вы безумны? 

к черту с этим, другом


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## Citizen66 (Mar 9, 2011)

I definitely think you need a kindle/ebook version.


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## manny-p (Mar 9, 2011)

LiamO said:


> действительно ли Вы безумны?
> 
> к черту с этим, другом


 
Care to write in english. I don't know slavonic languages.


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## LiamO (Mar 9, 2011)

allybaba said:


> Care to write in english. I don't know slavonic languages.


 
nor do I, Tovaritch, nor do I... (Google is your friend).

and the comments in Russian are as relevant to this discussion as the video you posted... ie not relevant at all.


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## Spanky Longhorn (Mar 9, 2011)

*looks round for a shelf stacker in a telnyashka*


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## manny-p (Mar 9, 2011)

LiamO said:


> nor do I, Tovaritch, nor do I... (Google is your friend).
> 
> and the comments in Russian are as relevant to this discussion as the video you posted... ie not relevant at all.


 
I was trying to make the point that physical confrontation was needed in countries such as Russia at the present time. Obviously things here are different. You ain't acting like a tovaritch.


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## Pickman's model (Mar 9, 2011)

The39thStep said:


> What new groups? Physical force anti fascism is hardly the tactic that is required currently is it?


 
there never has been "the tactic" which has been required. you're obviously not someone who thinks "by any means necessary" or believes in a diversity of tactics. seems to me that for you it's black or white, this or that - not this and that.


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## Sue (Mar 9, 2011)

Review of the book in Red Pepper:

http://www.redpepper.org.uk/unabashed-history/


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## past caring (Mar 9, 2011)

Is that it (it seems like it finishes half-way through) or is it that you only get an abridged version unless you subscribe?


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## love detective (Mar 10, 2011)

that's it

think they (RP) are planning to do a more in depth feature on it in a later edition


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## LiamO (Mar 10, 2011)

allybaba said:


> I was trying to make the point that physical confrontation was needed in countries such as Russia at the present time. Obviously things here are different. You ain't acting like a tovaritch.


 
Sorry. I think I might be coming across pissier than I intended. 

Just pointing out that the two situations ( in GB and the Urals) are totally different and you can't necessarily transpose tactics and strategies from one to the other.


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## manny-p (Mar 10, 2011)

LiamO said:


> Just pointing out that the two situations ( in GB and the Urals) are totally different and you can't necessarily transpose tactics and strategies from one to the other.


 
I agree. 

Not trying to derail the thread but if you follow the link, its a polish version of Skrewdriver getting a hiding from some comrades in Poland.

http://rutube.ru/tracks/3713206.htm...d32c2c2480&v=5ecac2a6b5039d42d2eb70528ad35a14


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## love detective (Mar 11, 2011)

An outstanding contribution to the debate here in a 'review' of red pepper's review of BTF

http://theenglishdefenceleagueextra.blogspot.com/2011/03/working-class-just-doesnt-buy-swps-red.html


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## LiamO (Mar 11, 2011)

love detective said:


> An outstanding contribution to the debate here in a 'review' of red pepper's review of BTF
> 
> http://theenglishdefenceleagueextra.blogspot.com/2011/03/working-class-just-doesnt-buy-swps-red.html


 
This reviewer is clearly a Cavan farmer (out standing in his own field). 

Never mind, I'm sure it all makes perfect sense in his own little pea-brain. Reminds me of a number of Urban posters.


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## bignose1 (Mar 12, 2011)

LiamO said:


> This reviewer is clearly a Cavan farmer (out standing in his own field).
> 
> Never mind, I'm sure it all makes perfect sense in his own little pea-brain. Reminds me of a number of Urban posters.


 
Hey steady Liam Ive got some good mates who are farmers in Killashandra. Infact when we went fishing last year we ended up rescuing one of his cows from a ditch. Hes diversifying now with a paintball course and I think hes setting up a go cart track....all since them luvly EU subsidies dried up


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## LiamO (Mar 12, 2011)

*Cliché Ray has died*

Ray, who was an active and game AFA member, posted on here as tbaldwin. His socialism was at odds with that of many on U75 but that never stopped him arguing his corner. 

Some people found him to be contrary (I didn't, but then I AM) to which I would say you'd probably be a bit contrary too if you had terminal cancer (which he fought for many years).

I know he fell out politically (and sometimes personally) with a number of former comrades. Indeed his first post on this thread is a classic case of taking a principled position but based on half the story. I had the luxury of not being around for those falling-outs so, whilst I disagreed with some of his posts on this thread, I found him engaging and a real civil kind of fella.

There is an RIP thread here.  

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/threads/345096-RIP-Ray-aka-Tommy-Baldwin-(-quot-tbaldwin-quot-)


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## ayatollah (Mar 16, 2011)

I don't know what success the rest of you have had in getting hold of a copy of BTF - BUT...

I eventually gave up on my Amazon order - always "Not in Stock" - and cancelled...

Then tried Freedom Books directly for a copy ... BUT their online purchasing - supposedly via Google for credit card payments - states that Freedom Books is no longer a participating trader !

It aint going to get in the Best Seller Charts at this rate, chaps !


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## Sue (Mar 16, 2011)

Try this:

http://beatingthefascists.org/


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## love detective (Mar 17, 2011)

ayatollah, if you order using the link above that Sue posted, the notification will come through to me and I'll post it out first class as soon as I receive it


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## ayatollah (Mar 17, 2011)

Thank you very much both Sue and Love Detective - I have now successfully purchased BTF - AT last !  I await delivery with anticipation - stand by for  lots of book comments and nitpicking  ! (as if I would)


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## sim667 (Mar 17, 2011)

I'd quite like to read this....

Im assuming it probably wont be available at my local library?


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## love detective (Mar 17, 2011)

> Thank you very much both Sue and Love Detective - I have now successfully purchased BTF - AT last ! I await delivery with anticipation - stand by for lots of book comments and nitpicking ! (as if I would)



order received, will get it posted out later on today when I get home


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## Blagsta (Mar 17, 2011)

sim667 said:


> I'd quite like to read this....
> 
> Im assuming it probably wont be available at my local library?


 
Why don't you reserve a copy?


----------



## love detective (Mar 17, 2011)

sim667 said:


> I'd quite like to read this....
> 
> Im assuming it probably wont be available at my local library?



Not at the moment no, hoping to get some copies into the library system at some point though (although your local library will probably be closed down by the time that happens!)


----------



## manny-p (Mar 19, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> Why don't you reserve a copy?


 
What they will buy one in for you? Sweet if true.


----------



## Demu (Mar 19, 2011)

Perhaps someone from FP can explain what the problem is? 

Half of the Middle East has changed hands in less time it has taken this book publisher to get the book from the printers to the distributers and retailers.

On a separate note, Ayatollah, you have a PM regarding an old friend who has not been too well of late. 



ayatollah said:


> I don't know what success the rest of you have had in getting hold of a copy of BTF - BUT...
> 
> I eventually gave up on my Amazon order - always "Not in Stock" - and cancelled...
> 
> ...


----------



## BlackArab (Mar 19, 2011)

Demu said:


> Perhaps someone from FP can explain what the problem is?
> 
> Half of the Middle East has changed hands in less time it has taken this book publisher to get the book from the printers to the distributers and retailers.
> 
> On a separate note, Ayatollah, you have a PM regarding an old friend who has not been too well of late.



In their defence, I've bought two copies so far and have had no problems, having followed the links posted on this thread.  Sue put up the link, Ayatollah ordered and LD confirmed in less than 24 hours. I only wish some online retailers could be that efficient.  If the BTF crew start selling DVD boxsets I'm cancelling my Amazon account


----------



## ayatollah (Mar 19, 2011)

And I have indeed got the book today and am pouring over it now (with my lawyer on tap !   --- just joking guys)  It's a great rollicking read so far I must say. (perhaps not as punchy as No Retreat though - MUCH longer though - and of course unlike NR it may all be TRUE !).

You just gotta get this book into Amazon's stock guys - it deserves a much wider readership than  the current limited availability routes are going to produce. It can certainly be got into public libraries by us all simply going in and ordering it at our local library.


----------



## Blagsta (Mar 19, 2011)

allybaba said:


> What they will buy one in for you? Sweet if true.


 
Libraries used to, but in these times of budget cuts, I dunno


----------



## love detective (Mar 19, 2011)

BlackArab said:


> In their defence, I've bought two copies so far and have had no problems, having followed the links posted on this thread.  Sue put up the link, Ayatollah ordered and LD confirmed in less than 24 hours. I only wish some online retailers could be that efficient.  If the BTF crew start selling DVD boxsets I'm cancelling my Amazon account


 
Just to clarify though, purchases through the www.beatingthefascists.org site (which both you and ayatollah bought through) are not dealt with or handled by the publishers Freedom Press. They are dealt with by the IWCA.


----------



## manny-p (Mar 19, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> Libraries used to, but in these times of budget cuts, I dunno


 
Im gonna try. They will probably say no.


----------



## ayatollah (Mar 19, 2011)

Believe me, despite budget cuts - it will still be possible to order this as a  not currently in stock new book purchase at your local library - or in the case of my particular hi tec local library system - online - so I'm going to  put in just such a request too - just to get one into our local system. We should ALL do the same.


----------



## manny-p (Mar 20, 2011)

ayatollah said:


> Believe me, despite budget cuts - it will still be possible to order this as a  not currently in stock new book purchase at your local library - or in the case of my particular hi tec local library system - online - so I'm going to  put in just such a request too - just to get one into our local system. We should ALL do the same.


Okay will let you know what happens.


----------



## ayatollah (Mar 20, 2011)

Just stormed through my copy of BTF. What an excellent book this is !  It was obviously fascinating for an old activist , but I also liked the fact that in places it is very funny;
"AFA abided by the Roosevelt Doctrine , ie ... Speak softly ...and carry a big stick"  excellent.   The description of the strange fascist prosecution witnesses and their statements at the 1992 Gable/O'Shea trial is so funny I'll be giggling for weeks !

But also there is a profound social/political  analysis in the book too - with a, I think accurate, and very worrying strategic view of the danger of a fast expanding radical right in the context of a collapsed Left. An essential book for all on the Left.

As a contributory anecdote about Left posturing : In around 1986/7 I was rushing around Merseyside for AFA whipping up counter demo numbers for an announced fascist demo in Liverpool. In Birkenhead we had a good big meeting - where I emphasised that, unlike the Militant protest in the Liverpool City Centre,  AFA wasn't just going to wave placards but wanted numbers of people willing to confront em  hard - and so warned that the AFA bit of the days action might be rough . A question from the floor... "What steps have you taken to ensure wheelchair users can fully participate in the AFA confrontation with the fascists ?"     I have to admit to being nonplussed !


----------



## audiotech (Mar 21, 2011)

ayatollah said:


> A question from the floor... "What steps have you taken to ensure wheelchair users can fully participate in the AFA confrontation with the fascists ?     I have to admit to being nonplussed !



The film 'Ben Hur' and the chariot race springs to mind.


----------



## cogg (Mar 21, 2011)

ayatollah said:


> Just stormed through my copy of BTF. What an excellent book this is !  It was obviously fascinating for an old activist , but I also liked the fact that in places it is very funny;
> "AFA abided by the Roosevelt Doctrine , ie ... Speak softly ...and carry a big stick"  excellent.   The description of the strange fascist prosecution witnesses and their statements at the 1992 Gable/O'Shea trial is so funny I'll be giggling for weeks !
> 
> But also there is a profound social/political  analysis in the book too - with a, I think accurate, and very worrying strategic view of the danger of a fast expanding radical right in the context of a collapsed Left. An essential book for all on the Left.
> ...


 
Glad you like the book.
In the novel, 'Infinite Jest', by David Foster Wallace, there's a group of weelchair bound Canadian terrorists...


----------



## manny-p (Mar 21, 2011)

ayatollah said:


> AFA wasn't just going to wave placards but wanted numbers of people willing to confront em  hard - and so warned that the AFA bit of the days action might be rough . A question from the floor... "What steps have you taken to ensure wheelchair users can fully participate in the AFA confrontation with the fascists ?     I have to admit to being nonplussed !


 
If they take you down, most wheelchaired people have awesome upper body strength.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Mar 22, 2011)

ayatollah said:


> But also there is a profound social/political  analysis in the book too - with a, I think accurate, and very worrying strategic view of the danger of a fast expanding radical right in the context of a collapsed Left.
> 
> 
> 
> A recent poll in France saw the NF top the poll for the first time ever. Of course that is France where the far-right have been on the national stage for decades. From that perspective the BNP are still in the their formative years. Yet, this fact is hardly grounds for the type of complacency, which has long been the default position of the liberal left. A recent Populus poll asked how many people agreed with the statement that' immigration had improved their area'. The total that signed up to this notion was a resounding 3 per cent. The total who agreed to any extent was just 12 per cent. In other words anti-immigrant sentiment in good old multicultural Britian, even without it taking overt political form, appears to be significantly worse than all other comparable countries in Europe. As BTF concludes, depressing as things are, 'we may already be in a hell of lot more trouble than we think we are'.


----------



## bignose1 (Mar 24, 2011)

ayatollah said:


> Just stormed through my copy of BTF. What an excellent book this is !  It was obviously fascinating for an old activist , but I also liked the fact that in places it is very funny;
> "AFA abided by the Roosevelt Doctrine , ie ... Speak softly ...and carry a big stick"  excellent.   The description of the strange fascist prosecution witnesses and their statements at the 1992 Gable/O'Shea trial is so funny I'll be giggling for weeks !
> 
> But also there is a profound social/political  analysis in the book too - with a, I think accurate, and very worrying strategic view of the danger of a fast expanding radical right in the context of a collapsed Left. An essential book for all on the Left.
> ...



Thats about as made up as me on the coach JP...


----------



## ayatollah (Mar 24, 2011)

Nope ... 100% true that anecdote is  . And I now know  that it was actually someone else on that Aytoun St coach, and who it was - as I have just spent a very happy day in Manchester chinwagging with DC and RM . Your name came up !

Whilst I'm on this thread...a funny extract from BTF:   from the 1992 trial of Gable and O'shea:

"The principal witness for the prosecution was (fascist) Keith Thompson...Even the relatively simple matter of swearing an oath landed him in trouble. He swore on the Bible but was forced to admit that he had once been an Odinist. He insisted this was no longer the case..The defence responded with the enquiry "Tell us, Mr Thompson, when did Valhalla cease to play an important part in your life ?" The court erupted. " (P.286).
.


----------



## sim667 (Mar 24, 2011)

allybaba said:


> What they will buy one in for you? Sweet if true.


 
Will they?


----------



## manny-p (Mar 24, 2011)

sim667 said:


> Will they?


 
Will try tomorrow. Will report back.


----------



## bignose1 (Mar 25, 2011)

ayatollah said:


> Nope ... 100% true that anecdote is  . And I now know  that it was actually someone else on that Aytoun St coach, and who it was - as I have just spent a very happy day in Manchester chinwagging with DC and RM . Your name came up !
> 
> Whilst I'm on this thread...a funny extract from BTF:   from the 1992 trial of Gable and O'shea:
> 
> ...


 
Cold case get together......kma


----------



## LiamO (Mar 25, 2011)

bignose1 said:


> Cold case get together......kma



tut tut bignose. You're only huffing cos you weren't invited. 

Whilst DC remains your bete noir, RM is a very chilled (philosophical even) individual these days and when I last met him preferred to speak highly of you in the 'good ol' days' rather than focus on negative things after the parting of the ways. 

But anyone but a fool would  still would think twice before dismissing HIM with a 'kma'.


----------



## ayatollah (Mar 25, 2011)

What a sad old gent I am nowadays , just not up with the street argot........ I've genuinely only just worked out what  "kma" means....and after I'd told everyone on this thread that you weren't a complete twwwwaaaaaattttt Steve.... dearie, dearie, dearie me....hold me back... hold me back........fetch me my weighted, studded,  club matron !



As LiamO says RM is indeed an extraordinarly "Centred" man nowadays - I've never laughed so much  as I did on Tuesday meeting with him and DC, and sharing old timer yarns  (only thing missing was Bruce Springsteins "Glory Days" playing in the background). RM could have an entire book  written just on his  anecdotes alone - a great guy, a true original.


----------



## LiamO (Mar 25, 2011)

ayatollah said:


> What a sad old gent I am nowadays , just not up with the street argot........ I've genuinely only just worked out what  "kma" means...



I thought it meant 'kiss my arse' but apparently it means 'kill me, ayatollah'... or so demu was telling me.


----------



## cantsin (Mar 25, 2011)

love detective said:


> ayatollah, if you order using the link above that Sue posted, the notification will come through to me and I'll post it out first class as soon as I receive it


 
(PM for you)


----------



## ayatollah (Mar 25, 2011)

Err, sorry cantsin, is that a PM for me ?   No PM from you for me as yet.


----------



## bignose1 (Mar 28, 2011)

ayatollah said:


> What a sad old gent I am nowadays , just not up with the street argot........ I've genuinely only just worked out what  "kma" means....and after I'd told everyone on this thread that you weren't a complete twwwwaaaaaattttt Steve.... dearie, dearie, dearie me....hold me back... hold me back........fetch me my weighted, studded,  club matron !
> 
> Was said a bit tongue in cheek JP....come on please. It was in response to YOUR dissing of NR which you consider had a few whities. And Liam Im not jealous..well a little bit maybe. But Ive been called, not in any particular order a grass, mysoginist,spy,spook,wife beater,scumbag,SB, nark,sell out,coward, puff, city fan(arghhhh) post NR and thats before the fash got involved. So a bit of banter aint going to hurt...come on boys. I appreciate what you say John, I really do and Ive got respect for RM and I hope hes ok...so there. SWALK
> 
> As LiamO says RM is indeed an extraordinarly "Centred" man nowadays - I've never laughed so much  as I did on Tuesday meeting with him and DC, and sharing old timer yarns  (only thing missing was Bruce Springsteins "Glory Days" playing in the background). RM could have an entire book  written just on his  anecdotes alone - a great guy, a true original.



see middle above


----------



## ayatollah (Mar 28, 2011)

Steve... I was taking the Mickey too , mate... Chill out.... The Matron hadn't really taken my weighted, studded  club , with the insanely cruel and unnecessary twisty pointy end, out of its oaken leather-bound velvet-lined box ! 

Don't fret Steve, your long heroic role in the Squad will always give you a place of fond respect in my memory.  And I actually still think "No Retreat" is a great rollicking read - great anti-fascist propaganda which will help mobilise younger anti-fascists for a long time 

 - it just seems clear that Hann made an awful lot of his contribution up. But that's not your fault Steve - Hann even fooled his own long term partner with his heroic tales. 

 SWALK indeedy comrade .


----------



## Red Storm (Mar 29, 2011)

I've read No Retreat and BTF. Both good books and both have helped me form my ideas of anti fascism. 

I'm from the new breed of Manchester Anti Fascists and a co-ordinator in the new Manc AFA. We're all only just discovering all these mad in fights which is strange when we hold all the old guard in such high regard when really we don't know any of you. We're not in your league (yet) as an organisation we're 18 months old but stories we know of your exploits back in the day are what have inspired us although we didn't really know of any of it when we started out. 

I'm starting to try and connect the dots of the old lot to make sure we don't make any of the same mistakes! Just stumbled on this thread which is proving interesting.


----------



## Red Storm (Mar 29, 2011)

As a side note: we voted against having a Northern launch of BTF, which we were asked by Freedom Press to do, out of loyalty. Now we've all read the book perhaps it was the wrong decision as BTF is such a good book but I don't think any new lot joining need to read the Hann stuff.


----------



## ayatollah (Mar 29, 2011)

Good to know, Red Storm, that a new generation in Manchester are taking up the torch. Different times, different needs and tactics of course. I appreciate that all the in-fighting and bitching between the old guard must be a bit off-putting ... but that is, and ever will be, the Left, I'm afraid - it just has to be accepted and worked round to achieve anything - as we had to do ourselves back in the day.

For your informaton, Tilzey's contribution to No Retreat is pretty accurate, and I agree newer anti fascists don't really need to concern themselves with the quibbling over what did and didn't happen in Hann's account - it still captures well the overall flavour of the times. 

The account of the Manchester Squad in BTF is very accurate, though for obvious reasons lots of other "good bits "couldn't be published. BTF is obviously much more analytical, and quite understandably much more London focussed, as well - a heavier tome altogether - with a wider purpose than  No Retreat.

Please Don't let  our old timer squabbles put you off - when it mattered we all managed to do the job in hand well - the later squabbles are unimportant.

Best of luck to you all.


----------



## Red Storm (Apr 1, 2011)

.


----------



## Fedayn (Apr 1, 2011)

Red Storm said:


> Just seen this on Socialist Unity. Do any IWCA/RA people know anything of it or is it bullshit?



I take it it appeared today?


----------



## Red Storm (Apr 1, 2011)

Yeah. 

http://www.socialistunity.com/?p=7922


----------



## Red Storm (Apr 1, 2011)

.


----------



## cogg (Apr 2, 2011)

Fedayn said:


> I take it it appeared today?


 
Signed by J. Favourite...


----------



## Fedayn (Apr 2, 2011)

cogg said:


> Signed by J. Favourite...


----------



## ayatollah (Apr 22, 2011)

Information for all his many, many,  old friends, RM has been very ill indeed.  I went for a laughter -filled trip with him this Tuesday around old haunts (including a trip to see Dessie's (spectacular) grave at Southern Cemetary), prior to an important hospital visit the next day . On Wednesday 20th he  has just been given the all clear after previous radical surgery. Now a very happy man indeed ! I'm sure all his old comrades will want to wish him well.


----------



## bignose1 (Apr 22, 2011)

ayatollah said:


> Information for all his many, many,  old friends, RM has been very ill indeed.  I went for a laughter -filled trip with him this Tuesday around old haunts (including a trip to see Dessie's (spectacular) grave at Southern Cemetary), prior to an important hospital visit the next day . On Wednesday 20th he  has just been given the all clear after previous radical surgery. Now a very happy man indeed ! I'm sure all his old comrades will want to wish him well.


 
So pleased and relieved that Roys got the all clear...was at my grans grave last week which is next to Dessies...which is just a few yards from Sir Matt Busbys ..another few yards from LS Lowry and...Billy Meredith...so in very good company. Which places did you visit..was it a bit like a Ripper tour..or similar


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## ayatollah (Apr 22, 2011)

Honesty forces me to admit that a large part of the days grand "tour" was down to my attack of what Trotsky once described as "Geographic cretinism",

Yep,  I got hopelessly lost just trying to navigate between Reddish and Southern Cemetary !  Well... it's years since I've been to Manchester, and the brain cells are a lot sparser now ! 

But yeh Steve, bit of an idea there mate... "Squad .. Vicious but Fair..Tours " -  all the highlights of the blood and gore across Manchester and the North West - it could have  legs that one  -with a crash helmetted , masked, tour guide !

 I'll pass on your regards to RM, Steve.  Needless to say he is on Cloud 9 at present - so there was no need to look for a spare plot after all ! 

Roy is not out of the woods yet, but he is now determined to take the availability of more time "On Planet" to write up his own autobiography - as he said, its got it all from the reader attractiveness big sales viewpoint-- adventure, crime , politics, violence, mad escapades, mystery, and he forcefully insists .... LOTS AND LOTS AND LOTS AND LOTS... etc...OF EXPLICIT SEX (lucky bastard !).


----------



## Red About Town (May 1, 2011)

Will back issues of the Fighting Talk and Red Action magazine ever be put up online to read?


----------



## butchersapron (May 1, 2011)

Fighting talk were put on line - missing a few. The site that had them is now down, i hope someone saved them and put them up elsewhere.


----------



## Sue (May 2, 2011)

Think people on here have the hard copies and possibly the electronic versions. Cogg would probably be the person to ask.


----------



## sihhi (May 2, 2011)

I have a copy of the first ever Fighting Talk. 

You can see the last issue of Fighting Talk in 2000 here 
http://replay.web.archive.org/19990220004528/http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/5602/

Can anyone help with this?  A now deleted blog had:



> A leading light in the early days of Red Action was Unmesh Desai of Newham in east London. It seemed like at every anti-racist event and every anti-fascist mobilisation, Desai would be there, often on the platform.
> 
> There aren't many socialists that have claimed to ‘out left’ me but in this period I had to sit through a night of such statements made by a ‘lefter-than-thou’ Unmesh Desai.
> ....
> ...



Is this information true?

Does anyone have extra information about him in the 80s and 90s? Was he actually a member of Red Action? Did he write any articles in Red Action bulletin/ magazine?

He was very active in Newham, he joined Labour at some point in the 1990s, now he's high up in East Ham Constituency Labour party and the greasy pole of London Labour.
He gives this kind of interview on the basis of his past antiracist experience http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/nov/09/how-many-more-roshonara-choudhrys

This is his face now http://mgov.newham.gov.uk/mgMiniSite.aspx?UID=199


----------



## ayatollah (May 2, 2011)

Wasn't Unmesh Desai working for the "Newham Monitoring Project" yet another GLC quango, in the early 80's when he had a leading role in AFA organisationally , being  on its Steering Group ? I certainly don't think he was in RA though - much too respectable even then. 

If it's the Unmesh I think he is, I recall he took responsibility for assembling 100 or so celebrity names for a half page AFA advert in about 86 , an ANL style thing, in the Guardian basically saying "we all oppose Fascism etc"  - BUT he FORGOT to include in the advert the intended request to send AFA cash ! So it cost a lot and brought us in nowt - VERY annoying at the time ! I recall Unmesh as basically a good bloke, very likeable - but obviously politically ambitious.


----------



## sihhi (May 2, 2011)

ayatollah said:


> Wasn't Unmesh Desai working for the "Newham Monitoring Project" yet another GLC quango, in the early 80's when he had a leading role in AFA organisationally , being  on its Steering Group ? I certainly don't think he was in RA though - much too respectable even then.
> 
> If it's the Unmesh I think he is, I recall he took responsibility for assembling 100 or so celebrity names for a half page AFA advert in about 86 , an ANL style thing, in the Guardian basically saying "we all oppose Fascism etc"  - BUT he FORGOT to include in the advert the intended request to send AFA cash ! So it cost a lot and brought us in nowt - VERY annoying at the time ! I recall Unmesh as basically a good bloke, very likeable - but obviously politically ambitious.



I forgot to add 'Monitoring Project' to Newham. 

The blog where it said he was Red Action was southpawpunch.blogspot.com - it is now dead. 

The reason for all this is that the Newham Councillors, aswell as cutting services and jobs left right and centre, agreed to award a 4% pay rise to their aleady overpaid Mayor Sir Robin Wales.

He fits in well into an ex-NMP type of thing: Asad Rehman became George Galloway's adviser, Barry Mussenden became an OBE/civil servant in charge of Equality and Partnerships in the Department of Health, Piara Powar became head of the CRE's Let's Kick Racism Out of Football/Kick It Out, then Football Against Racism in Europe, funded by the Premier League etc.

Sort of different to AFA and RA's politics- that's why I asked about Unmesh.


----------



## Demu (May 3, 2011)

sihhi said:


> I forgot to add 'Monitoring Project' to Newham.
> 
> The blog where it said he was Red Action was southpawpunch.blogspot.com - it is now dead.
> 
> ...


 
Yes Unmesh was certainly around during the 80' and did travel with Red Action for a while. Not sure if he was actually a member...Im sure someone from London will clarify. 

Still recall his quote in defence of Searchlight whilst Class War were being excommunicated from the AFA fold....'Searchlight is my Bible'


----------



## Divisive Cotton (May 3, 2011)

I'm sure at one point Unmesh Desai was in the running to take Tony Banks' old seat


----------



## The39thStep (May 3, 2011)

I knew Unmesh from the late 70s /early 80s. Very dry and witty, he was one of a number of Asian anti fascists , Hardy Desai was another.Then he was slim and always seemed to wear combat trousers,  Was around the squads but not sure if was ever a RA member.


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## ayatollah (May 3, 2011)

Unmesh and his ilk are quite an interesting social grouping I think - unlike the rest of us having to fit in anti fascist work around our day jobs , and in danger of losing said jobs if we fell fowl of the law - Unmesh and many others managed to be both active anti fascists/radicals  - but also held comfy quango jobs which got them paid for those activities too - nice work if you could get it !

There was a whole class of "radical" academics too , like the SWP's Alex Callinicos ( of  "That's not my function in the Party"  fame) and the IMG's Norman Geras, the SWP's Colin Barker, also  David Jaffe, etc, etc,  who managed to posture in the leading ranks of the "revolutionery Left" for decades , but never took  personal risks - yet found the various Left journals a perfect venue for their career building theory pontification .

Most of em are professors now of course. I always found this merging of the personal career building with supposed radical politics pretty iffy. If things in the 70's  had turned as nasty as they easily could have done, "Renegade Kautskyites" to a man I strongly suspect -(to coin an ancient olde Trot term). But maybe I'm being unfair...Not.


----------



## The39thStep (May 3, 2011)

ayatollah said:


> Unmesh and his ilk are quite an interesting social grouping I think - unlike the rest of us having to fit in anti fascist work around our day jobs , and in danger of losing said jobs if we fell fowl of the law - Unmesh and many others managed to be both active anti fascists/radicals  - but also held comfy quango jobs which got them paid for those activities too - nice work if you could get it !
> 
> There was a whole class of "radical" academics too , like the SWP's Alex Callinicos ( of  "That's not my function in the Party"  fame) and the IMG's Norman Geras, the SWP's Colin Barker, also  David Jaffe, etc, etc,  who managed to posture in the leading ranks of the "revolutionery Left" for decades , but never took  personal risks - yet found the various Left journals a perfect venue for their career building theory pontification .
> 
> Most of em are professors now of course. I always found this merging of the personal career building with supposed radical politics pretty iffy. If things in the 70's  had turned as nasty as they easily could have done, "Renegade Kautskyites" to a man I strongly suspect -(to coin an ancient olde Trot term). But maybe I'm being unfair...Not.


 
Ironically Callinicos wrote an article in ISJ about the new middle classs in the 1980's which was primarily directed at Labour's professional activists.


----------



## Joe Reilly (May 3, 2011)

Demu said:


> Yes Unmesh was certainly around during the 80' and did travel with Red Action for a while. Not sure if he was actually a member...Im sure someone from London will clarify.
> 
> Still recall his quote in defence of Searchlight whilst Class War were being excommunicated from the AFA fold....'Searchlight is my Bible'



Unmesh was involved with RA in the very early days but drifted. Relations resumed in 1985 with the foundation of AFA. He actually proposed that RA be allotted an extra seat on the founding steering committee, which RA refused. He was instrumental in creating the student base for AFA Mark 1, but when the decision was made to orientate to and accomodate working class recruits, he tried to set up a rival outfit called (having a?) LARF. I think he was still with the NMP in 1993, following the Welling Riot when it denouced RA for 'hi-jacking AFA' in the London Evening Standard. 

On the credit side, after the 1986 conference fiasco involving Class War, he atoned, at least partly the following year when RA was targetted for expulsion by the types mentioned elsewhere in the thread, who saw AFA as a potentially very lucrative quango - but for that to happen it would be necessary to ditch anti-fascism first.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (May 3, 2011)

ayatollah said:


> Unmesh and his ilk are quite an interesting social grouping I think - unlike the rest of us having to fit in anti fascist work around our day jobs , and in danger of losing said jobs if we fell fowl of the law - Unmesh and many others managed to be both active anti fascists/radicals  - but also held comfy quango jobs which got them paid for those activities too - nice work if you could get it !
> 
> There was a whole class of "radical" academics too , like the SWP's Alex Callinicos ( of  "That's not my function in the Party"  fame) and the IMG's Norman Geras, the SWP's Colin Barker, also  David Jaffe, etc, etc,  who managed to posture in the leading ranks of the "revolutionery Left" for decades , but never took  personal risks - yet found the various Left journals a perfect venue for their career building theory pontification .


 
To be fair to those radical academics who stuck at it, for the bulk of them being known as a revolutionary socialist was not good for their career prospects. That's part of the reason for the very quick and very sweeping rise of post-whatever thought in left academia - it was much more profitable to swap the socialism stuff for such meaningless waffle as "an emancipatory politics". It was less damaging to your employment prospects to be "out" as a communist lecturer then most other things, but they'd still have been materially better off by keeping their yaps shut.


----------



## butchersapron (May 3, 2011)

Sue said:


> Think people on here have the hard copies and possibly the electronic versions. Cogg would probably be the person to ask.



Links:
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=71GGHAQH
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=J3DL15LO
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=QI64QK03
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=HJQVM2Y1
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=6G67OG6I
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=GFTK9TBG
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=YKHNYRLK
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=GGEQUJ9B
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=02119AFY
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=YVMJAROQ
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=MI5ZY5Y4
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=EAVQH5AA
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=SODAAT64
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=6B05S56G
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=99MQX6QQ
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=WTZILCF4
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=UE6SN3AW


----------



## gawkrodger (May 3, 2011)

nice one BA. Will d/l those over the coming days


----------



## butchersapron (May 3, 2011)

I'll zip them up into one file then re-upload later tonight, probably be easier.

(oh yeah, thanks go to Fozzie Bear who scanned these in)


----------



## butchersapron (May 3, 2011)

Single zip file


----------



## Mr Smin (May 3, 2011)

'add to cart' button doesn't appear in Firefox 3.6 - bloody anarchists.

(it does in chromium 10 though)


----------



## Fedayn (May 3, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Single zip file


 
Cheers BA


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## imposs1904 (May 3, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Single zip file



Cheers for this. Used to buy Fighting Talk in Housman's many years ago.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (May 5, 2011)

Thanks for that.


----------



## MellySingsDoom (May 5, 2011)

+1 on the cheers to butchersapron and Fozzie Bear.  Am looking forward to reading all these.


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## butchersapron (May 5, 2011)

Next question is, did anyone save a copy of Filling the Vaccum that i scanned and put up - because i didn't


----------



## stethoscope (May 5, 2011)

MellySingsDoom said:


> +1 on the cheers to butchersapron and Fozzie Bear.  Am looking forward to reading all these.


 
Yep


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## past caring (May 5, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Next question is, did anyone save a copy of Filling the Vaccum that i scanned and put up - because i didn't


 
I have the hard copy and a working scanner, if all else fails.


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## butchersapron (May 5, 2011)

past caring said:


> I have the hard copy and a working scanner, if all else fails.


 
I'm sure some one did. 

(The laptop i had it on has been nicked since)


----------



## Fozzie Bear (May 5, 2011)

Glad people are finding those scans useful, Fighting Talk was a great magazine - really good combination of news, analysis, culture and history I thought. Oh and humour...

Looks like Filling The Vacuum has been hoovered up by the folks at Libcom:
http://libcom.org/library/filling-vacuum-london-afa


----------



## Fozzie Bear (May 5, 2011)

Slightly off-topic but people might also enjoy Max Schaefer's "Children of the Sun". 

It's a _novel_ about Nicky Crane and is a bit odd (in a good way in my opinion). It includes an account of AFA defending the 24 hour picket of the South African Embassy one St George's day and some bits about the far right which seem to suggest that the author has done more research than you might expect. It was my holiday book last year...


----------



## ayatollah (May 6, 2011)

Back to the present - the BNP have just done spectacularly badly in the local elections,losing most of their councillors. So where now for their "respectable" electoral strategy ?  Possibility of a return to street politics a la the EDL ?


----------



## The39thStep (May 6, 2011)

ayatollah said:


> Back to the present - the BNP have just done spectacularly badly in the local elections,losing most of their councillors. So where now for their "respectable" electoral strategy ?  Possibility of a return to street politics a la the EDL ?


 
Why would they want to do the latter?


----------



## ayatollah (May 6, 2011)

Interesting article in The Guardian suggesting the BNP is breaking apart under pressure a range of financial, interpersonal and political issues. If the BNP splinters, it's only an IF,  a restructuring of the extreme Right could well result in an increased focus on EDL-style street action, as new groups try to stake their claims to leadership of what at present is  only a  very generalised poor white working class response to the growing unemployment and welfare reductions resulting from the banking crisis backwash. 

I accept that the Left generally don't seem to see EDL provocations as a significant part of the future trend of extreme Right activity, but I'm not sure why. After all, current electoral setbacks for the BNP must cast doubts in many fascists's minds about the long term stabilityof gains made so painstakingly, and future growth via the current respectable electoral strategy.


----------



## sihhi (May 6, 2011)

ayatollah said:


> Interesting article in The Guardian suggesting the BNP is breaking apart under pressure a range of financial, interpersonal and political issues. If the BNP splinters, it's only an IF,  a restructuring of the extreme Right could well result in an increased focus on EDL-style street action, as new groups try to stake their claims to leadership of what at present is  only a  very generalised poor white working class response to the growing unemployment and welfare reductions resulting from the banking crisis backwash.
> 
> I accept that the Left generally don't seem to see EDL provocations as a significant part of the future trend of extreme Right activity, but I'm not sure why. After all, current electoral setbacks for the BNP must cast doubts in many fascists's minds about the long term stabilityof gains made so painstakingly, and future growth via the current respectable electoral strategy.


 
No. NF, BNP, Libertas and EDP will carry on with electoralism. 

The diehards don't matter it's the wider penetration of 'it's all the immigrants' fault' 'no immigrants=less crime' that matters. When things are getting tight the government /are doing/will do what the far-right wants but can't do - more deportations, a demand for B2 level English as a condition of citizenship, higher visa fees, fewer student visas, tougher citizenship test, deportation of all immigrant/asylum seeker/refugee penalised/criminalised.

The far right despite their best efforts they appeal only to a stratum and actively refuse/despise struggle alongside foreigners - they can never effect mass democratic struggle against austerity in places like London because so much of London is 'immigrant'. They will try in their efforts for a born-here only welfare-state to precipitate a race-type cold war but it can't get very far because a significant proportion of the urban centres of the country are 'mongrel'/have mixed relationships etc. 

EDL will carry on marching and perhaps performing 'direct actions'. 
This in their mind might mean occupying sites proposed for a mosque, attacking/picketing halal goods/halal shops, picketing/physically confronting, attacking far-left terrorist sympathisers/enablers. If they attack the left, it is because they are seen as 'weak', unable to handle themselves, full of try-hard smoking students who can't run very fast and types who've never done any exercise let alone self-defence. The EDL haven't as far as I know attacked the Muslims at the Islamist bookshops, although I might be wrong.


----------



## ayatollah (May 7, 2011)

You may well be quite right Sihhi. However I think we are still at the early stages of the impact of the current crisis on poor working class communities - large disadvantaged communities which are often  still remarkably all white in composition

 --so I do wonder if we are still to see the phenomenum of poor White Riot in areas like the Midlands - where reports of large uptake of soup kitchens by white families does suggest we are entering a new ballgame. By a strange quirk of circumstances I was chatting to a large white working class family a few weeks ago - very long term BNP members and earlier NF, in the main  - going back decades  - and I was struck by how "up for it" on the EDL White Riot front the younger members of this extended family were.

They told me the BNP had absolutely forbidden any BNP members to involve themselves with EDL events - saying the EDL was a state set-up - they could be right. But the BNP is obviously worried about the appeal of direct action to its younger supporters/members.

 Purely impressionistic I admit , but I think the fascist response to the crisis will tail the reaction of their potential support base to ever growing hardship, which could well lead back to the streets. Time obviously will tell.


----------



## sihhi (May 7, 2011)

ayatollah said:


> You may well be quite right Sihhi. However I think we are still at the early stages of the impact of the current crisis on poor working class communities - large disadvantaged communities which are often  still remarkably all white in composition
> 
> --so I do wonder if we are still to see the phenomenum of poor White Riot in areas like the Midlands - where reports of large uptake of soup kitchens by white families does suggest we are entering a new ballgame. By a strange quirk of circumstances I was chatting to a large white working class family a few weeks ago - very long term BNP members and earlier NF, in the main  - going back decades  - and I was struck by how "up for it" on the EDL White Riot front the younger members of this extended family were.
> 
> ...



'March and Grow' seems unlikely for the BNP - given the BNP has grown and not marched, and when it was marching it didn't grow.


What exactly does a 'poor white riot' mean? 

Do you count Oldham and Burnley 2001 as a 'poor white riot'?

If you mean mass racial attacks, yes it might happen along the lines of 
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D98SI4HG0&show_article=1

Although there usually needs to be a specific stigma group - Somalis and East European gyspies - seem the most obvious target - before.

The only thing that helps us in all of this is go to those 'large white working class families', ask them what the problems are and which strategy will work against the austerity/ poverty - making enemies of people in the same situation, or making allies of them. It's their self-interest at stake.

Individual cases of racialised harassment are still high - that's my impression. I spoke to an asylum seeker, absconded from his NASS dispersal room in Newcastle because kids pulled monkey faces, swore racially etc etc. He'd rather sleep on a matress on a church hall floor.


----------



## ayatollah (May 7, 2011)

By "poor White Riot" I mean a widespread violent response to aspects of the current economic crisis as it impacts on poor white families on large all white housing estates - spark could be housing evictions - heavy police reponse to anti social behaviour or demo about closure of local facilities -with an added racial element and attacks on local non-whites seen as getting benefit or housing preference.

 Whatever the precise spark it is the dry tinder of growing deprivation plus the poison of racialist scapegoating that could provide opportunities for the far right  groups -who, unfortunately are often at present more of a presence in such areas as residents than the Left is. 

 But as you rightly say this danger once again raises the challenge for the Left to precisely engage on the ground with local concerns - all stuff experienced before by the Communist Party in the 1930's in the East End when competing for support with the Blackshirts.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (May 14, 2011)

*and relax*


----------



## Red About Town (May 14, 2011)

Going slightly off topic, but I heard an old song on a Facebook site recently. It was by Tofu Loves Frogs and called Anti Fascist Fascist. There was lines at the end of the song that I could make out as anti-Red Action, can anyone explain what they were about?


----------



## The39thStep (May 17, 2011)

Red About Town said:


> Going slightly off topic, but I heard an old song on a Facebook site recently. It was by Tofu Loves Frogs and called Anti Fascist Fascist. There was lines at the end of the song that I could make out as anti-Red Action, can anyone explain what they were about?


 
Who knows what anti Red Action folk are on about?


----------



## LiamO (May 17, 2011)

Fucked if I can make out the lyrics but the bit without music at the end is quite clear. Anyone know them or their history?

IME most 'anti-Red Action' people didn't actually know very much about Red Action or indeed many people IN Red Action. much of the anti-RA prejudice I encountered was just that, PRE-judice.

I remember PK indulging himself in this "RA as bullies" fantasy on another thread. He was (politely at first) challenged to back it up. He could not. It was all Chinese whispers and he wasn't even around at the time. So naturally enough he conceded this and apologised... like fuck. He sulked and hid and pops up occasionally to snipe. Possibly a real nice fella IRL but a disingenous, lightweight liar on here


----------



## The39thStep (May 17, 2011)

LiamO said:


> Fucked if I can make out the lyrics but the bit without music at the end is quite clear. Anyone know them or their history?
> 
> IME most 'anti-Red Action' people didn't actually know very much about Red Action or indeed many people IN Red Action. much of the anti-RA prejudice I encountered was just that, PRE-judice.
> 
> I remember PK indulging himself in this "RA as bullies" fantasy on another thread. He was (politely at first) challenged to back it up. He could not. It was all Chinese whispers and he wasn't even around at the time. So naturally enough he conceded this and apologised... like fuck. He sulked and hid and pops up occasionally to snipe. Possibly a real nice fella IRL but a disingenous, lightweight liar on here


 
You might not know that PK single handedly ran the fash out of Epsom


----------



## Blagsta (May 17, 2011)

LiamO said:


> Fucked if I can make out the lyrics but the bit without music at the end is quite clear. Anyone know them or their history?
> 
> IME most 'anti-Red Action' people didn't actually know very much about Red Action or indeed many people IN Red Action. much of the anti-RA prejudice I encountered was just that, PRE-judice.
> 
> I remember PK indulging himself in this "RA as bullies" fantasy on another thread. He was (politely at first) challenged to back it up. He could not. It was all Chinese whispers and he wasn't even around at the time. So naturally enough he conceded this and apologised... like fuck. He sulked and hid and pops up occasionally to snipe. Possibly a real nice fella IRL but a disingenous, lightweight liar on here



Tofu Love Frogs are a crusty festival band.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (May 17, 2011)

Yeah he firebombed their favourite pub.


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## LiamO (May 17, 2011)

The39thStep said:


> You might not know that PK single handedly ran the fash out of Epsom



Really? I'm not sure if I ever heard that story 39. Would it be a chore to repeat it again?


----------



## LiamO (May 17, 2011)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> Yeah he firebombed their favourite pub.


 
Perhaps you could collaborate with 39 and provide some much needed colour to the story. It sounds so exciting, I can hardly contain myself...

'The Tale of the Epsom Arsonist - lessons in delusion by PK'


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (May 17, 2011)

Unfortunately the exact details escape me, I'm sure someone here will have a clearer recollection or a copy of the original account, needless to say it gives "Beating the Fascists" a run for it's money...


----------



## MellySingsDoom (May 17, 2011)

LiamO said:


> Perhaps you could collaborate with 39 and provide some much needed colour to the story. It sounds so exciting, I can hardly contain myself...
> 
> 'The Tale of the Epsom Arsonist - lessons in delusion by PK'


 
This'll be the Epsom which is so racist that none of my Asian mates had any probs getting busy with the ladies there, or chatting blather with the locals.  Perhaps there's a Dr Who-like time portal where you can't move for goosesteppers in that part of the world.


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## LiamO (May 17, 2011)

yes that'll be the one... but it was reeeeeeally dangerous before the Epsom Arsonist sent Johnny Fascist on his way, I can tell you. Thank god for PK, I say. Perhaps we should start a fund to erect a statue of him in his nazi-free hometown


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## love detective (May 17, 2011)

Funny you should mention the timelord...


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## The39thStep (May 17, 2011)

This is how it has been explained to me :there were a couple of years around the turn of the century when PK was going through his zero tolerance period. This involved a number of incidents in which said zero tolerance was delivered, not only on Urban but in the real world. Obviously this is when he wasn't DJing at raves or conducting his tour of the world ( an experience described by many as a modern day version of The gospel comes to New Guinea)    . On some occasions grateful citizen and passers by applauded especially when zero tolerance was shown on public transport.On other occasions for example where fascism raised its ugly head their meeting place at a public house was firebombed and the threat of a fourth Reich receded, if only momentarily.Details are scant but i am sure you will appreciated the sensitivity of such operations.

On other occasions when Butchers requested to meet face to face he failed to turn up though. Sometimes life's like that.


----------



## butchersapron (May 18, 2011)

LiamO said:


> Fucked if I can make out the lyrics but the bit without music at the end is quite clear. Anyone know them or their history?
> 
> IME most 'anti-Red Action' people didn't actually know very much about Red Action or indeed many people IN Red Action. much of the anti-RA prejudice I encountered was just that, PRE-judice.



Just briefly passing through today - i believe this song is a reference to the Matty Blag/Dave Simpson incident in 93 - the lyrics fit and it mentions EMI as well. So it's a hissy fit about an incident that happened 18 nearly years ago, written today for some reason.


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## love detective (May 21, 2011)

scan here of the 1st page of an article about the book in Look Left magazine, based on an interview done a couple of months back


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## Red About Town (May 22, 2011)

love detective said:


> scan here of the 1st page of an article about the book in Look Left magazine, based on an interview done a couple of months
> 
> back



Can that magazine be bought or read online?


----------



## petee (May 23, 2011)

Red About Town said:


> Can that magazine be bought or read online?


 
i looked at their website and didn't see it there


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## Nigel Irritable (May 23, 2011)

Red About Town said:


> Can that magazine be bought or read online?



According to the website, you can buy it one shop in England or you can order it off the Workers Party website:
http://www.lookleftonline.org/get-you-copy-of-lookleft/

If you wait  a month or two, the article will probably be on the website anyway.


----------



## Red About Town (May 25, 2011)

The history of Anti Fascist Action will be discussed at this year's Anti Racist World Cup in Belfast.


----------



## Casually Red (May 25, 2011)

MellySingsDoom said:


> This'll be the Epsom which is so racist that none of my Asian mates had any probs getting busy with the ladies there, or chatting blather with the locals.  .



that must have been after he sorted the place out


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## love detective (May 31, 2011)

That article in Look Left can be read on the journalist's website here


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## MellySingsDoom (Jun 1, 2011)

Casually Red said:


> that must have been after he sorted the place out



Showing those lily-livered cowards in AFA how it's really done.  Everyone in Epsom must have been so cowed by him that no-one ever mentioned, whispered, talked about etc this one-man army of justice, this nemesis of non-righteous public houses everywhere.  Fear got their tongues.


----------



## love detective (Jun 1, 2011)

the pub was both burned to a crisp and still standing simultenously the next day


----------



## laptop (Jun 1, 2011)

love detective said:


> the pub was both burned to a crisp and still standing simultenously the next day


 
That's what you get after eight pints of Heisenberg's Old Quantum.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 1, 2011)

MellySingsDoom said:


> Showing those lily-livered cowards in AFA how it's really done.  Everyone in Epsom must have been so cowed by him that no-one ever mentioned, whispered, talked about etc this one-man army of justice, this nemesis of non-righteous public houses everywhere.  Fear got their tongues.



Wasn't there another episode where he through a bottle at a fash march and cut off soemones ear?


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## MellySingsDoom (Jun 1, 2011)

The39thStep said:


> Wasn't there another episode where he through a bottle at a fash march and cut off soemones ear?



I think you could well be on the money there.  I await with baited breath the reports that he single-handedly planned and organised the Battle of Waterloo, and that AFA jumped on his idea and took all the credit.


----------



## past caring (Jun 1, 2011)

The39thStep said:


> Wasn't there another episode where he through a bottle at a fash march and cut off soemones ear?



As is often the case with these things, the truth is actually funnier than the (sometimes deliberately misremembered for comic effect) fiction.....

As I recall (and I do have the thread saved - it's been deleted from here) all of this happened on the SHAC UK thread which had been going on for some 11 or so pages with PK giving it large/throwing his weight about with some of the younger annakisseds at the time before reality intervened. He was berating people/threatening dire consequences for unprovoked attacks on the police and various other innocents before being pulled on his own claims that he had;

a) attacked an NF march and cut a participant's ear off - the claims were later "downgraded" to his having thrown a bottle at the march but not having seen where it landed as he was making his get away across the rooftops. Cue much laughter/embarrassment when it was pointed out that this being the case, said bottle, if it actually existed, was as likely to have hit a copper as an NFer.

b) "sorted out" a pub (I'm not sure Epsom was specified) where the fash congregated by torching it. Again cue much laughter/embarrassment at the silence which followed when he was asked whether (bearing in mind his loudly professed anger at those who caused injury to innocents) he'd bothered to establish that there were no bar staff/itinerant navvies sleeping in the rooms upstairs before he'd got all Prodigy on their asses.

All this riled him up so much that he came to the conclusion that honour would be most suitably restored via a face to face with butchers where (as we used to say in the parlance) a "full and frank exchange of views" would take place. It may have been that PK felt fairly secure in making this suggestion knowing, as he did, that butchers lives in Bristol. In any event, it was me that offered to substitute for butchers and it was me that later had to break the bad news to everyone that PK had failed to show for the suggested meet.


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## MellySingsDoom (Jun 1, 2011)

^^^   

So here we have pk - the Warrior of Freedom and Anti-Fascist justice so righteous that there's no way he'd be bringing out Jeffrey Archer-style "accounts" of his actions, or put the editor of this forum in danger of being banged up by posting a load of highly libellous "gossip" here.  No, not at all.  Never.


----------



## LiamO (Jun 1, 2011)

I say, steady on. 

I fear you chaps don't actually realise the orgy of retributive violence you may be unwittingly bringing upon yourselves.  PK is not a man to be trifled with, as this (hilarious) thread shows.

PK joins on Page 7 #146 and gets into his stride/stagger on #154... still waing for him toback his assertions up... not holding my breath

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/threads/341704-Burnt-out-Reds-and-Anarchos.../


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Jun 1, 2011)

LiamO - I've read, digested and conjutated your link - clearly, PK is a lion of a debater, someone who is ready and willing to back up his assertions w....oh dear, I feel all faint and dizzy, let me sit down and start again - clearly, PK is a total oaf who couldn't out-argue a block of Asda cheese, and a fantasist, a smear-merchant and a coward to boot.  "Anti-fascist" my eye - he would have been thrown out of AFA faster that Lawrence Rustem was.

I expect now that the Epsom One will want to deal with me - time to start checking my flat for any incendiary devices, watching if anyone is following me, and screening my phone for foaming, hysterical calls promising "justice".  I may not be long for this world, Liam - my careless talk could be my undoing


----------



## LiamO (Jun 1, 2011)

Yup, indeed. 

Well that's enough of debunking anti-AFA, anti Red Action mythology and definitely enough wasted on he whom I will no longer name... and shame.


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Jun 1, 2011)

^^^  

Back on topic - can anyone confirm one way or the other something I saw posted on the old Red Action forum: someone mentioned/claimed on there that far from being a red-blooded John Bull Brit, John Tyndall was acutally born and spent a part of his early years in Ireland.  Is there any truth/credence to this?  Haven't been able to source any proper info on this to date so far.


----------



## LiamO (Jun 2, 2011)

Dunno. 

But are you suggesting you cant be born on the island of Ireland and not still be 'pride teebee brateeesh'? Cos there are some folk who would disagree...












here's a charming Irish-born Britisher celebrating the fact that some of his chaps killed FIVE Irish civilians in a south Belfast bookies shop... maybe they were backing a horse called United Ireland... so they probably deserved it.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 2, 2011)

The ex BM leader Michael McLaughlin  came from an Irish Republican family, his father fought in the International Brigades.


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Jun 2, 2011)

LiamO - ah, our Loyalist friends - nah, me is well aware of these fine figures of menfolk (ahem) - the first one is Mad Dog, right?, and as for the second, I don't recognise him, but note that his Orange Order sash has a big "LOL" sewn onto the left hand side - any further comment necessary? (except - did he ever condemn the murders outright?) What I was pondering on is how a "nationalist" like Tyndall, who banged on left, right and centre about the "British" (I think we know who he meant by that) would have squared that with his Irish background (if indeed he was born and initially raised in Eire) - not that one should expect any logic and consistency from the likes of Tyndall and Co, of course, but a point of minor interest to me, nonetheless.  As an aside, I think Tyndall wrote an article in one of the latter-day "Spearhead" mags advocating a re-invasion of the Republic for "British" Lebensraum....

The39thStep - thanks for that, I knew McLaughlin was from the Mersey area, but had no idea about his familial background.  Where on earth did he go wrong then?  The Ray Hill book mentions a fair bit about Michael, but much of it not amounting to much more than tatty gossip, from my recollection....


----------



## Fedayn (Jun 2, 2011)

MellySingsDoom said:


> ^^^
> 
> Back on topic - can anyone confirm one way or the other something I saw posted on the old Red Action forum: someone mentioned/claimed on there that far from being a red-blooded John Bull Brit, John Tyndall was acutally born and spent a part of his early years in Ireland.  Is there any truth/credence to this?  Haven't been able to source any proper info on this to date so far.


 
Tyndall was born in Devon somewhere, his family however were from Ireland.


----------



## LiamO (Jun 2, 2011)

@ Melly

Actually, I think this is a common enough phenomenon. I remember in the late 70's/early 80's Searchlight did a booklet which basically listed all those NF types convicted over the years. A surprising number of the names were Irish.

IME this stems from the fact that British-born Irish people, being white, have a choice (and certainly in the 70's many regarded it as Hobson's choice) whether to identify with their forefathers or with the land they were born in (this 'choice was, of course, not gifted to people with darker skin). 

Given the virulent anti-Irish propaganda of the time, it was no surprise many chose to be 'British'. Then of course they had to contend with those on both sides telling them they weren't really British - leading to some deciding they had to be seen as 'more british than the british'. And where or how better to assert that but through the NF or BM?


----------



## laptop (Jun 2, 2011)

@LiamO:

That's the basis of Cockney racism, isn't it? _We're_ not Hugenot/Irish/Jewish/Irish... we're Cockerney!

Dunno about other parts... but I'm bracing myself for Bengali yoot taking against some more recent arrivals... though what you say abt colour tempers this...


----------



## miktheword (Jun 2, 2011)

Fedayn said:


> Tyndall was born in Devon somewhere, his family however were from Ireland.



think he spent much of his holiday youth in the Republic. I did have a copy if his autobiography 'The Eleventh Hour' I think; gave it to a fellow RA member; do think he says in the first chapter that he admired the irish fighting spirit and of course, their homogeneity race wise. Lauded those who'd fought for Britian in WW1 etc. Made a kind offer that he'd love to accept them back into the fold, once Britons had 'awoken' and they'd taken power.

also, wasn't (Steven?) Brady Irish?


----------



## Fedayn (Jun 3, 2011)

miktheword said:


> think he spent much of his holiday youth in the Republic. I did have a copy if his autobiography 'The Eleventh Hour' I think; gave it to a fellow RA member; do think he says in the first chapter that he admired the irish fighting spirit and of course, their homogeneity race wise. Lauded those who'd fought for Britian in WW1 etc. Made a kind offer that he'd love to accept them back into the fold, once Britons had 'awoken' and they'd taken power.
> 
> also, wasn't (Steven?) Brady Irish?



Brady is Irish yes.


----------



## LiamO (Jun 3, 2011)

To put all this talk of Irish Fascists in perspective... it is only fair to point out whilst there were many Irish people (especially british-born Irish people) involved in far-right groups, there was also a completely disproportionate amount of Irish ANTI-Fascist activists. Indeed at one stage, Irish ancestry was almost a prerequiste for Red Action membership. 

Whilst many Irish people are fairly conservative Catholics socially, many of them were prominent in the Trade Union movement in britain from the Chartists onwards. This dichotomy of Irish emigrants and their descendants, being disproportionately represented in terms of political activity at both the left and right polarities was repeated in the US.

To the best of my knowledge this was also true of Jewish immigrant communities in Britain, in Europe and the US. I suspect that being immigrants and thus having no historical loyalty to the native ruling class or the 'host nation' made it easier for people to embrace Class allegiances over national ones and Internationalism.


----------



## LiamO (Jun 3, 2011)

Just to add...

Idiots, including some on here, often make ill-informed and ill-considered comment about Ireland's neutrality during WW2, as though WW2 was some kind of international anti-fascist crusade (a status it was IMO only awarded retrospectively, or at least _during_ the war). In this contrived context Ireland's neutrality is depicted as  being tacitly 'sympathetic' towards Fascism.  This is bollocks, frankly.

The reality is that the Blueshirts received very short shrift, particularly from Republicans and the Irish were strongly, completely disproportionally, represented in the International brigades in Spain (whether they actually travelled there friom Ireland or with a british or american contingent)..


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## past caring (Jun 3, 2011)

Talking of the fash and Irish politics, does anyone else have any recollection of the following? (It was one of the funniest things I've ever experienced whilst engaged in political activity....)

This was either a Troops Out or Bloody Sunday march (think probably the former as the weather was always fucking awful for Bloody Sunday marches and this was a warm sunny day) sometime in the late 80s. Rumours had been flying about that the fash were planning something and as the march passed Marble Arch and started up the Edgeware Road we discovered that this was true - but not at all in the way we might have expected. At least one of this group of fash must have spent some time as a Maoist or WRPer, because their counter protest took the form of street theater - the barbarity of the IRA being displayed by a couple of the fash done up in bloodied bandages, attended by "doctors" in white coats and stethoscopes and a couple of nurses in blue dresses and sensible shoes. 

The only trouble was the "nurses" were actually blokes, complete with wigs and Les Dawson style Cissie and Ada false knockers. Until the little mob that I was with arrived I think that this bit of street theater had been met only with the kind of polite derision you'd have have expected from the left. But we (although still just about in the SWP at the time) were from the rougher end of the market. Chants of "Get your tits out for the lads", "Do you take it up the arse?" and "Sex-case, sex-case, hang him, hang him, hang him" started up - to the absolute fury of the fash and to only slightly less anger from the SWP full-timers and branch officials in the vicinity.


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## LiamO (Jun 3, 2011)

*That reminds me... during the war*

.








​




On the Manchester Martyrs march the local plod (or Dibble, as the Mancs would have it) were somewhat hostile. Thus they would encourage loyalists and fash to get right in our faces, with the plod in between._ They_ could pretty much do as they liked but any response from our side was often jumped on, thus we either wound them up - by wearing rangers scarves, singing 'fuck the pope' songs or 'The Billy Boys' - or we just had to just ignore them.

The free hand they were afforded often allowed the fash to whip themselves up into a demented, self-righteous frenzy. One scouse fella was thus infected and had decided PC (not past caring, but a comrade from Hatfield) was to be the special focus of his ire. ' See you. Yer fuckin dead. DEAD d'you hear me, SCUM? YER FUCKIN DEAD. i'M GONNA SLIT YOUR FUCKIN THROAT YOU FUCKIN SCUM. D'YOU HEAR ME, EH CUNT? SOON AS THIS MARCH IS OVER YOU FUCKIN SHIT CUNT TERRORIST BABY-KILLER SCUM .' etc etc. Pc just gritted his teeth, kept his eyes front and ignored him. The alternative was probably a nicking.

Yer man managed to keep this tirade up for a couple of minutes and even the old bill were beginning to get annoyed with his consistent raving. Now he was facing into the March from the side, so to keep up with PC he had to keep sidestepping and jumping which added to his demented little pixie look and, combined with his ranting, drew quite an audience. 

All of which made it all the funnier when he took a giant sideways leap, straight into a concrete lampost - and knocked himself completely unconcious and splitting his face like a peach in the process. The whole March was held up cos no-one could walk for laughing, especially when one copper - amongst the chorus of raucous catcalls - who had been encouraging him, gave him a sly boot and told him 'gerrup you daft cunt your making a show of us'. 

This set us off again worse than ever and yer man suffered the ignominy of coming to, being laughed at by chorus of 150 of his arch-enemies, whilst his comrades just shuffled away in embarrassment, trying to pretend he was nowt to do with them.

PC had to be half-carried for the next mile or so as he was rendered completely incapable of walking by hysterical laughter.


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## Spanky Longhorn (Jun 3, 2011)

I do appreciate having you old timers on here


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## LiamO (Jun 3, 2011)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> I do appreciate having you old timers on here


 
oooooh, young maaaaan.

Just as well I pre-emptively posted Uncle Albert then, ain't it?


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## MellySingsDoom (Jun 3, 2011)

LiamO, past caring et al - thanks muchly for your posts, recollections etc on my Irish etc question - v interesting and have learnt some new stuff too


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## petee (Jun 3, 2011)

LiamO said:


>



the bloke in the middle and the one to the left ... related?



> This dichotomy of Irish emigrants and their descendants, being disproportionately represented in terms of political activity at both the left and right polarities was repeated in the US.



sadly more to the right. i'm often jealous of other ethnicities for their robust left tradition.


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## LiamO (Jun 3, 2011)

petee said:


> sadly more to the right. i'm often jealous of other ethnicities for their robust left tradition.


 
I dunno if they are related, I dunno who the fuck they are... just two more besuited bigots.

Much more interested in your second bit... can you be more specific?  Country? Period?

Without some context, your post reads like 'white shame' to me... which is probably unfair, hence my request.


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## petee (Jun 3, 2011)

LiamO said:


> Without some context, your post reads like 'white shame' to me... which is probably unfair, hence my request.


context? you mean this of yours i quoted and reacted to?


> This dichotomy of Irish emigrants and their descendants, being disproportionately represented in terms of political activity at both the left and right polarities was repeated in the US.


so no "white", no shame, and no idea how you got to that.
my parents are from clare and mayo, viz ireland, and being raised in an intensely irish-american milieu i have noticed that many of my ilk grow up to be rightwingers. many fewer greenhorns/first-gen grow up to be leftwingers, prominent among whom recently might be mike quill, but for every quill there are/were ten of the other sort, certainly by now (viz late 20th/early 21st century, but the more recent arrivals might be changing that balance, i can't say for sure). the history of ee.gg. italian and jewish immigrants in america and their immediate descendants offers a much richer display of left participation. i'm jealous of that sometimes. on another chatroom i was really surprised to learn how many of the mods had communist parents and grandparents. i've come to my politics completely independently, as there is no such tradition in irish-american circles.


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## LiamO (Jun 3, 2011)

No by 'context' I meant what country, what generation etc. Thanks for the detail you have posted.

Now you have supplied that context, I'll have a ponder and get back to you.


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## Nigel Irritable (Jun 3, 2011)

LiamO said:


> In this contrived context Ireland's neutrality is depicted as  being tacitly 'sympathetic' towards Fascism.  This is bollocks, frankly.
> 
> The reality is that the Blueshirts received very short shrift, particularly from Republicans and the Irish were strongly, completely disproportionally, represented in the International brigades in Spain (whether they actually travelled there friom Ireland or with a british or american contingent)..


 
You are entirely correct that Ireland's neutrality was heavily biased in favour of the allies (eg: crashed German airmen were interned, crashed Allied airmen were given a lift to the border). 

But you are playing down the significance of the Blueshirts. The Blueshirts were the largest fascist movement in the world (in proportion to population) not to succeed in taking state power. They were about the same size as the Mosleyites, in a country with a tenth of the population. 

And the Irish were not noticeably disproportionately represented in the International Brigades, or at most were very slightly so in comparison to the British. There's an additional factor that many of the Irish volunteers were leaving a country where they had essentially no political prospects: After a move to the left, culminating in Saor Eire and ending with Church-led red scares, the IRA had shifted to the right. The breakaway left-republican Republican Congress had collapsed (O'Donnell, Gilmore, Ryan and their allies in the Communist Party were mostly to blame). They were, at least in part, the remnants of a broken political movement.

We were also the only country which sent more volunteers to Franco than to the Republican or Revolutionary forces. By a margin of about three to one. As you probably know, this was organised by O'Duffy's openly fascist National Corporate Party and associated Greenshirts, after he'd been removed from the Fine Gael leadership and then parted ways with that party.


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## Nigel Irritable (Jun 3, 2011)

petee said:


> the history of ee.gg. italian and jewish immigrants in america and their immediate descendants offers a much richer display of left participation.


 
Other immigrant communities in the US tended to bring left wing politics over with them, having come from communities which often had much stronger socialist traditions than Ireland. The Germans in the US in particular were the backbone of the early socialist movement there. For a substantial number of them, their politics were further affirmed by the hardships of the immigrant experience. The Irish, for the most part, lacked that framework.

There's more to it than that, of course. Another factor, of many, is the association of sections of the Irish immigrant community with the police and with patronage machine politics,.


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## LiamO (Jun 3, 2011)

Nigel Irritable said:


> And the Irish were not noticeably disproportionately represented in the International Brigades, or at most were very slightly so in comparison to the British.


 
Irish 250
british 1800-2000
(these are wikifigures)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Brigades#Brigadiers_by_country_of_origin

Now I ain't no good at Maths, but the last time I checked the population of britain was substantially more than 8 times that of Ireland.

Also the british figure will include many of Irish descent as 'british' (as the US one will claim them as septics). When you factor in the fact that britain was a highly industrialised (and Trade Unionised) nation and Ireland was a largely rural one with a proportionally much smaller trade union movement (and an essentially conservative social tradition) then the figures for Ireland become more remarkable.

As fr your disingenuous reference to the numbers 'sent' to aid Franco... a little explanation as to how many of these Blueshirt Tourists actually fired a gun in anger might be a better illustration.

There is much to debate in your post, but your maths will have to do for tonight.


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## Nigel Irritable (Jun 3, 2011)

LiamO said:


> Irish 250
> british 1800-2000
> (these are wikifigures)
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Brigades#Brigadiers_by_country_of_origin
> ...



Taking those figures at face value (and you shouldn't, because the Irish number is unreferenced and the British number comes from a 50 year old book which has now been superceded), the "disproportionality" amounts to 5:4. That isn't significant, particularly when you are dealing with such small numbers. Those numbers also don't take into account British people who fought with forces other than the International Brigades (ILPers fought with the POUM militias, anarchists fought with the anarchist militias). Almost no Irish people fought with the militias although Paddy Trench, for example, was with the POUM in a non-combat role.

If I recall correctly, none of the serious research on the subject (McGarry's book, Stradling's book or Ciaran Crossey's website) reaches 250 in their estimates of the Irish combatants. And the numbers listed in O'Riordan's Connolly Column were substantially lower (although that's to be expected as O'Riordan had less access to the full picture).

Overall I'd guess that the numbers of people coming from Britain and from Ireland to fight for the Republicans or assorted Revolutionary militias was quite close to proportional, with the Irish maybe having a slight edge.




			
				Liam0 said:
			
		

> As fr your disingenuous reference to the numbers 'sent' to aid Franco... a little explanation as to how many of these Blueshirt Tourists actually fired a gun in anger might be a better illustration.



There was nothing disingenuous in my comment. 

Over 600 Irish men went to Spain to fight for Franco in a crusade organised through a fascist party. They barely saw combat and performed exceptionally poorly when they did (mostly with forces on their own side, due to confusion and mistaken identity) but that's not relevant to this discussion. Ireland produced substantially more people willing to go to Spain with the intention of fighting for the Francoists than it did people willing to go to Spain with the intention of fighting for the International Brigades. 

That's simply a matter of historical fact and it should hardly come as a surprise given the conservatism and piety of Irish society at the time. The Irish media was almost hysterically pro-Franco as was the Church. Those going to fight for Franco were sent off as heroes (although they came back to substantially less fanfare after their ignominious performance).




			
				Liam0 said:
			
		

> There is much to debate in your post, but your maths will have to do for tonight.



I have no idea why you are being so confrontational.


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## skitr (Jun 3, 2011)

Yeah without sounding too patronizing, thanks very much for some of the stories.


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## Spanky Longhorn (Jun 3, 2011)

skitr said:


> Yeah without sounding too patronizing, thanks very much for some of the stories.



Yep I hope no one thinks I was being sarky, I do appreciate them.


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## LiamO (Jun 4, 2011)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> Yep I hope no one thinks I was being sarky, I do appreciate them.


 
I just assumed you were having a bit of craic, which is to be expected (and indeed welcomed) whenever us old cunts start reminiscing.


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## LiamO (Jun 4, 2011)

Nigel Irritable said:


> I have no idea why you are being so confrontational.


 
I don't think I _am_ being confrontational, I just disagree fundamentally with your interpretation of events, numbers and the significance thereof. You think I am 'playing down' the significance of the Blueshirts, I think you are playing it up - by affording them a status that their actions do not deserve. Their 'crusade' was more of a Legion of Mary Jolly-boys outing than a proper campaign which just about sums up their standing amongst european fascists who regarded them as a joke. Irish anti-fascist volunteers on the other hand had an excellent and well deserved reputation as fighters and as comrades.

The 'historical fact' is that from a (comparatively) _very _small pool of left-wing political activists (in a largely rural, non-unionised population) Ireland produced a disproportionate number of anti-fascist volunteers. High numbers of blueshirt crusaders/tourists (no matter how fuckin incompent, naieve and politically unaware the majority of them may have been) does not _dis_prove my theory, it actually substantiates it. 

Look, I have no intention of taking_ this_ thread off on a tangenital bunfight. If you'd like to pursue this, do feel free to start a thread.


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## malatesta32 (Jun 4, 2011)

there was an irish contingent of the international brigades which frank ryan was attached to. then he ended up in germany after some convoluted adventures. in the film the eagle has landed, donald sutherland's character is based on frank whose story is well worth a read. 
as far as emigration and radical politics is concenred there are at least 2 noticable strains regarding politics: that the emigration experience radicalises people in the face of hostility or the natural inclination to hang out with ones folks, usually consolidated for a lot of irish expats in places like republican pubs or irish centres; and that, especially in the case of the sri lankan communist journalist i worked with years ago, people have to flee because of their radical politics. my mate ended up living in a 1 room hostel with his wife and kids in fear for his life. theres more to be said on this for sure. 
in bernard o mahoney's hateland he talks of his dilemma over the far right's anti-irishness - being part irish himself - and he mentions that many of his mates were, like a lot of the UK's population, of irish descent. he also gets the name of red action wrong - red army faction indeed - and describes using mobile phones on actions several years before folks had such a thing as they were rare, huge and expensive. 
the pro-republican marches could be very lively. we went up to manchester for either a manchester martyrs  or troops out march which featured the usual loyalist/fascist hecklers. a brave few who tried to attack the march and as usual we had a lot of handy republican, red action and afa stewards who were on hand to bounce them across the pavement. the cops were extremely nervousand the fash ended up worse off. we marched under what was the arndale centre bridge when the leading republican band stopped and played with all its might, the sound echoing across the city. one of the most exciting things i have ever heard. it must have freaked plod and the fash right out. good times. mal o'testa.


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## Nigel Irritable (Jun 4, 2011)

LiamO said:


> e significance of the Blueshirts, I think you are playing it up - by affording them a status that their actions do not deserve. Their 'crusade' was more of a Legion of Mary Jolly-boys outing than a proper campaign which just about sums up their standing amongst european fascists who regarded them as a joke. Irish anti-fascist volunteers on the other hand had an excellent and well deserved reputation as fighters and as comrades.
> 
> The 'historical fact' is that from a (comparatively) _very _small pool of left-wing political activists (in a largely rural, non-unionised population) Ireland produced a disproportionate number of anti-fascist volunteers. High numbers of blueshirt crusaders/tourists (no matter how fuckin incompent, naieve and politically unaware the majority of them may have been) does not _dis_prove my theory, it actually substantiates it.


 
You are trying to have it both ways here. The whole point I'm making is that Ireland was a deeply conservative and religious society at the moment and that its left was small and weak, while its radical right was considerably stronger. 

The Blueshirts are considered a joke because (a) they failed completely and (b) it suits Irish right wingers to play down their significance and seriousness to protect the historical standing of Fine Gael and of Irish conservatism in general. So they are often treated as if they were not _really_ part of the European fascist movement or were not _really_ to be taken seriously at all. In fact, they were an extremely large political movement by the standards of 20th Century Ireland and in relative terms a much larger and more serious operation than the Moseleyites.

That Ireland produced many more people who were willing to fight for Franco than it did International Brigaders reflects the deep conservatism of Irish society at the time. The entire Irish media supported Franco as did popular opinion. You are right that Ireland's small, weak, politically marginal left sent a surprising number of volunteers to Spain. That was partly because it consisted in large part of very serious people, with a somewhat militarist tradition and partly precisely because the Republican left was so politically marginal that there didn't seem to be much of use to do at home so much of the cadre went where there seemed to be something important at stake.


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## LiamO (Jun 4, 2011)

Yes, dear. Quite. 



LiamO said:


> This dichotomy of Irish emigrants and their descendants, being disproportionately represented in terms of political activity at both the left and right polarities ...



start a thread or STFU.


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## The39thStep (Jun 4, 2011)

malatesta32 said:


> there was an irish contingent of the international brigades which frank ryan was attached to. then he ended up in germany after some convoluted adventures. in the film the eagle has landed, donald sutherland's character is based on frank whose story is well worth a read.
> as far as emigration and radical politics is concenred there are at least 2 noticable strains regarding politics: that the emigration experience radicalises people in the face of hostility or the natural inclination to hang out with ones folks, usually consolidated for a lot of irish expats in places like republican pubs or irish centres; and that, especially in the case of the sri lankan communist journalist i worked with years ago, people have to flee because of their radical politics. my mate ended up living in a 1 room hostel with his wife and kids in fear for his life. theres more to be said on this for sure.
> in bernard o mahoney's hateland he talks of his dilemma over the far right's anti-irishness - being part irish himself - and he mentions that many of his mates were, like a lot of the UK's population, of irish descent. he also gets the name of red action wrong - red army faction indeed - and describes using mobile phones on actions several years before folks had such a thing as they were rare, huge and expensive.
> the pro-republican marches could be very lively. *we* went up to manchester for either a manchester martyrs  or troops out march which featured the usual loyalist/fascist hecklers. a brave few who tried to attack the march and as usual we had a lot of handy republican, red action and afa stewards who were on hand to bounce them across the pavement. the cops were extremely nervousand the fash ended up worse off. we marched under what was the arndale centre bridge when the leading republican band stopped and played with all its might, the sound echoing across the city. one of the most exciting things i have ever heard. it must have freaked plod and the fash right out. good times. mal o'testa.



Who was the *we* at the time? I somehow had you down as an about late twenties anarchist for some reason


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## The39thStep (Jun 4, 2011)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Taking those figures at face value (and you shouldn't, because the Irish number is unreferenced and the British number comes from a 50 year old book which has now been superceded), the "disproportionality" amounts to 5:4. That isn't significant, particularly when you are dealing with such small numbers. Those numbers also don't take into account British people who fought with forces other than the International Brigades (ILPers fought with the POUM militias, anarchists fought with the anarchist militias). Almost no Irish people fought with the militias although Paddy Trench, for example, was with the POUM in a non-combat role.
> 
> If I recall correctly, none of the serious research on the subject (McGarry's book, Stradling's book or Ciaran Crossey's website) reaches 250 in their estimates of the Irish combatants. And the numbers listed in O'Riordan's Connolly Column were substantially lower (although that's to be expected as O'Riordan had less access to the full picture).
> 
> ...



F'king hell Nigel Irritable accusing someone of being confrontational !


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## malatesta32 (Jun 4, 2011)

*young shavers!*



The39thStep said:


> Who was the *we* at the time? I somehow had you down as an about late twenties anarchist for some reason


ha ha thanks mate. theres a few malatestas now (as well as nana-testa and all the little mini-testas!). age range - various. have to be careful with details for obvious reasons!


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## The39thStep (Jun 4, 2011)

you could sort of hint who the we was though ie political grouping?


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## petee (Jun 4, 2011)

Nigel Irritable said:


> The whole point I'm making is that Ireland was a deeply conservative and religious society at the moment



which attitudes came over to the states.
1: 19th c. immigrants were better politically.
2: there was a degree of clericalism/jansenism among the irish which the italians didn't have (and which obv. doesn't apply to jews, whose religious tradition seems to contain a degree of argumentation unknown to catholics) and which was expressed also other socio-politcal fields. the mother was/is almost psychotically devoted to the idea of hierarchies, as were her peer group.


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## rorymac (Jun 4, 2011)

If pk had been a member of red action and I can only imagine that he might/wanted to or could have been obviously .. then he'd have been top drawer imo


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## LiamO (Jun 4, 2011)

I don't often differ with you Uncle Rory , but on this occasion I must. 

From the posts above it is clear that PK deliberately provoked, and readily encouraged, a bout of fisticuffs which he than failed to show for. Add that to his boastful lies, that neither he nor anybody else can actually provide even anecdotal evidence to back up, the n I can only conclude that...he would NEVER in a million years have been allowed to be even a supporting member of Red Action.


NOT because he is afraid of physical confrontation - there were many people over the years who were valued comrades and members of RA who were not 'up for a row' but had many other political and personal attributes that were just as important - but because he is a bragging, boastful, liar... who _also_ happens to be a shithouse. 

He won't even stand over his lies and fairy-tales on this board ffs, where he is hardly in danger of physical retribution, never mind IRL. 

Walter Mitty types were avoided, ridiculed and ostracised by RA. _Not_ because they were physical cowards, but because their lack of _psychological_ resilience made them dangerous to the health and welfare - and ultimately the liberty - of their comrades.


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## ayatollah (Jun 5, 2011)

LiamO said:


> ...Walter Mitty types were avoided, ridiculed and ostracised by RA. _Not_ because they were physical cowards, but because their lack of _psychological_ resilience made them dangerous to the health and welfare - and ultimately the liberty - of their comrades.



A VERY important point to be made LiamO - hopefully for due noting by any younger comrades who might get involved in the rougher side of things in the future 

- as someone who served jail time directly because of the systematically  made up lies of just such a fantasist (see the sad ,farcical , OK also funny, tale of the Rochdale Nine in BTW). I subsequently came across a number of other anti-fascist wannabees definitely suffered from Munchausen Syndrome during my time in anti fascist activity - their attention seeking fantasies and lies are an ever present danger to activists. 

As also covered in BTF, some Searchlight personnel also suffered from seriously overactive imaginations - a real pain for anyone trying to sort out what the facts are and what info to trust as a guide to action.

Not that I ever met him , but it seems from info on this thread that Dave Hann of No Retreat fame was also of this ilk - dangerous, dangerous types. AVOID.


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## malatesta32 (Jun 5, 2011)

*who?*



The39thStep said:


> Who was the *we* at the time? I somehow had you down as an about late twenties anarchist for some reason


 
okay, class war, DAM, AFA, even SWP (didnt we all at some point?).


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## malatesta32 (Jun 5, 2011)

ayatollah, i posted this in the EDL watch thread and was interested in your take - and indeed any of liam, cogg, ex red action/AFA - on strategies to deal with the EDL. anyway, this is what i wrote: 

at their demos, the edl are escorted to and from by heavy plod, they thrive on publicity and all their publicity has been pretty negative regarding demos. any argy bargy with counter demos gives them slightly better publicity. however they have achieved nothing politically and seem destined to bus in, stand about, get pissed and go home. is it worth turning up to counter-demo? the uaf are as ever penned in and other miliant antifascists usually stay away from any kettling possibility. and to be honest, the AFA approach may not be the best one here - tho it obviously was before against the BNP. many edl are getting bored and skint from all this, there are factions - NWI, NEI, ENA etc - all after the same followers. this is not to say ignore the threat, but like with blackpool last week, is it worth bothering at the moment? should we just wait and see if it implodes? any ideas? 
also love the idea that they are a human rights organisation - so surely they should believe in the right to worship freely for people - and also a non-profit organisation. this is because all the profits go to tommy and cocaine kev's powdery pastimes and trips abroad. anyone wanna buy a 2nd hand charleene badge? E-E-E dont care!


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## Deareg (Jun 5, 2011)

ayatollah said:


> A VERY important point to be made LiamO - hopefully for due noting by any younger comrades who might get involved in the rougher side of things in the future
> 
> - as someone who served jail time directly because of the systematically  made up lies of just such a fantasist (see the sad ,farcical , OK also funny, tale of the Rochdale Nine in BTW). I subsequently came across a number of other anti-fascist wannabees definitely suffered from Munchausen Syndrome during my time in anti fascist activity - their attention seeking fantasies and lies are an ever present danger to activists.
> 
> ...


 
Strange as I knew Dave very well and never found him to be anything of the sort, nor ever heard him described this way by any one else who knew him.


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## ayatollah (Jun 5, 2011)

Deareg, I simply refer you to post numbers 602 and 642 on this thread. The guy apparently made most of his CV in No Retreat as a world class anti fascist hero up.  Read the posts and tell us it aint so.


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## Deareg (Jun 5, 2011)

ayatollah said:


> Deareg, I simply refer you to post numbers 602 and 642 on this thread. The guy apparently made most of his CV in No Retreat as a world class anti fascist hero up.  Read the posts and tell us it aint so.


 
I don't need to read any posts on here to know that Dave was not a fantasist I knew him very well for quite a few years and in all the time I spent in the company of other anti-fascists I never once heard of him referred to as such, I also attended his funeral along with hundreds of others which bore testimony to the respect and affection to which he was held.


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## The39thStep (Jun 5, 2011)

malatesta32 said:


> okay, class war, DAM, AFA, even SWP (didnt we all at some point?).


 
I had a mate ( manager in a chemical works ) who was in Manchester DAM at the time who was without his specs was somewhat  short sighted. Said friend attended Martyrs march and in the expectancy of some full and frank discussion with the oppo, engaged in such  and found out that he had caused some collateral damage to one of his fellow members.


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## ayatollah (Jun 5, 2011)

Deareg said:


> I don't need to read any posts on here to know that Dave was not a fantasist
> 
> "Don't bother me with the facts .. Dave was my mate". Laudable in some ways Deareg.. but on the other hand.. can I interest you in a genuine treasure map I have found -  yours for £200,000 ?  It's completely Kosher mate !


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## Deareg (Jun 5, 2011)

ayatollah;11823839][QUOTE=Deareg said:


> I don't need to read any posts on here to know that Dave was not a fantasist
> 
> "Don't bother me with the facts .. Dave was my mate". Laudable in some ways Deareg.. but on the other hand.. can I interest you in a genuine treasure map I have found -  yours for £200,000 ?  It's completely Kosher mate !


 
What facts? 

And fuck you and your piss poor attempt at sarcasm.


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## Spanky Longhorn (Jun 5, 2011)

Maybe you two should take it to PMs?


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## Deareg (Jun 5, 2011)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> Maybe you two should take it to PMs?


 
Already have.


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## Spanky Longhorn (Jun 5, 2011)




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## Demu (Jun 6, 2011)

Deareg;11823887][QUOTE=ayatollah said:


> What facts?


 
Perhaps you should read post 642 as ayatollah suggests, as it contains plenty of facts. Then again perhaps you don’t need to. As you well know, Dave Hann did not join RA in 1984, but in 1988 as he was in the same branch as you. He was still in this branch in 1989, when he claimed to have relocated to Manchester in 1987. Indeed had he done so, then perhaps the ayatollah might have been able to place him.

He claimed AFA no longer existed in Manchester in 1987, yet strangely the relaunch does not take place until 1991. You were at the Swinging Sporran gig when AFA proved themselves to be more than alive and well 3 years after Hann claims in No Retreat that they were clinically dead. 

The claim Hann makes repeatedly in No Retreat is of being an anti fascist activist for 12 years, ie from 1984 until 1996, whereas the reality was nearer to 6 years, after his arrest for mugging in 1994.

So in No Retreat we have a Dave Hann who doubles his service record from six to twelve years, places himself in at the start of AFA, does an additional 4 years on the street with London Red Action, and single handedly rebuilds Manchester two years before he actually arrives and in spite of it already having one of the strongest AFA branches in the country.

This platform building is to place Hann as the veteran activist who, further down the line, after being kicked out for mugging offences, can fabricate a dignified ‘political’ reason for leaving by blaming RA for the demise of AFA. Wonderful get out clause for Hann and indeed the stuff of fantasy, but interestingly this work is well beyond the reach of Hann, and in that sense, Deareg, I would agree with you. Hann was a stooge to the end, and sadly lived a lie that others now have to come to terms with.

More recently, in response to further threats of legal action from Louise Purdrick against Freedon Press, publishers of Beating the Fascists, the fabricated anti fascist CV claimed by Dave Hann in No Retreat has been sent to her legal representatives at Carter Ruck. You may be forgiven for thinking this would have given Louise Purdrick and indeed the co-author of No Retreat even more grounds to sue, but as yet the summons has not arrived. 

Regards

Demu


----------



## Deareg (Jun 6, 2011)

He may have got some dates wrong, I don't know as my own mind can be a bit hazy on dates too and you yourself even in your post have got some dates wrong, I moved down to london to join RA in Jan 87, Dave was, to my knowledge, already an established and trusted member, but he was certainly involved before me which would make it at least 86 not 88, 

I can't remember for sure when he moved to Manchester either, I thought it was before I moved to Belfast which was 89 but I may be wrong, I will ask Louise to ask M his former partner and the reason that he moved up there, and while I don't know how weak M/C was I don't remember it being that strong either, as I recall on the night of the Swinging sporran and I can't remember for sure what year that was, (88?), we had only 4 stewards to begin with and when the fash turned up mob handed we had to do an emergency mobilisation which included one of my brothers who has never been politically active in his life, I am not saying that that was automatically indicative of how things were in M/C but I feel it does adds some weight to Dave's position.

What I do know for sure though, I knew Dave very well and he was no fantasist, he was as down to earth as any RA or AFA activists that I ever knew.


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## bignose1 (Jun 7, 2011)

Demu;11826060][QUOTE=Deareg said:


> Perhaps you should read post 642 as ayatollah suggests, as it contains plenty of facts. Then again perhaps you don’t need to. As you well know, Dave Hann did not join RA in 1984, but in 1988 as he was in the same branch as you. He was still in this branch in 1989, when he claimed to have relocated to Manchester in 1987. Indeed had he done so, then perhaps the ayatollah might have been able to place him.
> 
> He claimed AFA no longer existed in Manchester in 1987, yet strangely the relaunch does not take place until 1991. You were at the Swinging Sporran gig when AFA proved themselves to be more than alive and well 3 years after Hann claims in No Retreat that they were clinically dead.
> 
> ...


 
For the frigging umpteenth time Im not involved in any legal shite with Farter Suck or whatever their name is. Get a grip Denis.


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## Demu (Jun 7, 2011)

bignose1;11828678][QUOTE=Demu said:


> For the frigging umpteenth time Im not involved in any legal shite with Farter Suck or whatever their name is. Get a grip Denis.



Pleased to hear that Steve, although after reading some of their correspondence, I could be forgiven for thinking otherwise.


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## malatesta32 (Jun 9, 2011)

interesting if overexcitedly written piece on the ARA skins from USA. 
http://www.citypages.com/2008-02-20/feature/skinheads-at-forty/


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## imposs1904 (Jun 9, 2011)

The book's reviewed in this week's Weekly Worker.


----------



## Inigo Montoya (Jun 9, 2011)

imposs1904 said:


> The book's reviewed in this week's Weekly Worker.


 
Cheers for that.

Has there been anymore reviews besides that one, Freedom Press and Malatesta.


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## The39thStep (Jun 9, 2011)

Initially all well and reasoned beginning  with view digs at what at was Workers Power but as you read down the artiicle a complete abstention by the Weekly Worker politically. In other words let them do the fighting and we will patiently explain the politics . 

A hilarious conslusion:



> RA’s attacks on the ‘middle class left’, especially given its more recent disavowal of the left as such, veer perilously close to TheSun’s populist attacks on north London Guardianista types.
> 
> This, in a sense, brings us back to the beginning. There is something about British society which makes it harder for fascist and right-populist forces to make gains in society. It is certainly not ‘tolerance and diversity’, or ‘race awareness’ - it is the fact that far-right ideas are a perfectly ordinary part of mainstream discourse, and already have a political representative: the Conservative Party. Enoch Powell was not in the NF; and ultimately Thatcher was able to cut the latter’s support off ‘at the ankles’ because “racist, ultra-conservative, anti-working class” politics have always had a safe home in her party



I can see a call for a vote for Labour on the cards


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## Nigel Irritable (Jun 9, 2011)

The39thStep said:


> I can see a call for a vote for Labour on the cards


 
They've already gone there.


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## Deareg (Jun 13, 2011)

Demu;11826060][QUOTE=Deareg said:


> Perhaps you should read post 642 as ayatollah suggests, as it contains plenty of facts. Then again perhaps you don’t need to. As you well know, Dave Hann did not join RA in 1984, but in 1988 as he was in the same branch as you. He was still in this branch in 1989, when he claimed to have relocated to Manchester in 1987. Indeed had he done so, then perhaps the ayatollah might have been able to place him.
> 
> He claimed AFA no longer existed in Manchester in 1987, yet strangely the relaunch does not take place until 1991. You were at the Swinging Sporran gig when AFA proved themselves to be more than alive and well 3 years after Hann claims in No Retreat that they were clinically dead.
> 
> ...



Demu, I got word back from Louise, M cant remember the exact date that Dave moved to M/r, but reckons it was 87 or thereabouts, I thought it was about 88 myself but she should know, M said that they had lived together for a couple of years before their daughter was born in 90,

Louise said that Dave was found not guilty in July 95 and left AFA sometime in 96 and was still contributing to Red Attitude up until Aug/Sep 96 and was in fact the editor of that issue which should be easily proved or disproved by getting hold of a copy as she reckons he is named in that issue, he then moved down to Brighton sometime in either 98 or probably 99, which makes his activity at least 10 years not 6 as you believe.

Take care.


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## Demu (Jun 15, 2011)

Deareg said:


> He may have got some dates wrong, I don't know as my own mind can be a bit hazy on dates too and you yourself even in your post have got some dates wrong, I moved down to london to join RA in Jan 87, Dave was, to my knowledge, already an established and trusted member, but he was certainly involved before me which would make it at least 86 not 88,
> 
> I can't remember for sure when he moved to Manchester either, I thought it was before I moved to Belfast which was 89 but I may be wrong, I will ask Louise to ask M his former partner and the reason that he moved up there, and while I don't know how weak M/C was I don't remember it being that strong either, as I recall on the night of the Swinging sporran and I can't remember for sure what year that was, (88?), we had only 4 stewards to begin with and when the fash turned up mob handed we had to do an emergency mobilisation which included one of my brothers who has never been politically active in his life, I am not saying that that was automatically indicative of how things were in M/C but I feel it does adds some weight to Dave's position.
> 
> What I do know for sure though, I knew Dave very well and he was no fantasist, he was as down to earth as any RA or AFA activists that I ever knew.


 
I’m sure Pat Daly was a staunch republican in your opinion also, until to your cost, you found out he was actually a paid British agent. A revelation which would no doubt, cause you to fundamentally change your view of the man.

 Likewise when the ‘down to earth’ Hann confessed his involvement in the mugging incident, and de facto his concealment of it from RA/AFA for up to a year, it fundamentally changed our view of him. Gone was the committed anti fascist, and revealed instead was an altogether different character.

Whilst I accept we can all be hazy on the dates, being out by 6 months or a year is understandable, however being out by up to four years, and also claiming to be in Manchester whilst actually in London for an additional two years can justifiably be read as the stuff of fantasy and not amnesia, unless, of course, there is a more compelling reason for the fabrication and the construct.

Let me highlight the 12 year anti fascist career that Hann claims in No Retreat which dates from 1984 when he claims he joined Red Action to 1996 when he left AFA.

1984. Joins Red Action

There is not a single anecdote or activity involving Hann in London Red Action in the years 1984, 1985, 1986 between the covers of No Retreat to support this. 

The two events he claims inspired him to join RA occurred in summer 86 and Feb 87. The earliest possible date he could have joined RA is spring 87. Others involved at the time put his start date as late 1987 or early 1988.

1987. Moves to Manchester

There is not a single anecdote or activity involving Hann in Manchester AFA in 1987, 1988, and 1989 between the covers of No Retreat to support this. 

The earliest date Hann uses in relation to his political work in Manchester is the relaunch of AFA in 1991. The gig at the Swinging Sporran, in early 1990, (or late 1989 according to BTF) which was organised by Hann, is omitted because it proves the existence of a strong physical force AFA group three years after Hann claims in No Retreat that it no longer existed and at least one year before he claims to have rebuilt it. This one incident alone sinks the Hann narrative.

In a previous post I have outlined some of the actions of Manchester AFA during 1987, 1988, and 1989, and whilst I can place Steve T, I cannot place Dave Hann because he was not there. He was in London as was yourself, and in the same branch of Red Action. 

The period from when he was arrested to when he admitted his involvement in anti social activity, to when he was thrown out of AFA in July 1996, I have covered in some detail in other posts in this thread, which I’m sure you will have already read. I’m not sure as to what the relevance of how long he lived in Manchester after he ‘retired’ from RA/AFA is, but it certainly doesn’t contribute to his period of active service, and nor does he claim so in his book. 

Following Hann’s departure from AFA, he announced that he was going to continue Red Attitude outwith AFA. Manchester AFA took a different line and he was replaced as editor in late July 96 after the last edition edited by him, was at the printers. 

Dave Hann’s credible anti fascist career spans from his joining RA mid 87 to his arrest for a mugging offence and concealing it from RA and AFA in mid 94. And if Mark T (Dave Hann’s mugging partner), ever spilled the beans, then this credible period may well be reduced somewhat further.

That’s not the twelve years repeatedly claimed in No Retreat, that’s not even the ten you give him credit for, and the proof or lack of it is all contained in his book. 

The only question that remains, is why Hann fabricated his CV, and who he colluded with in doing so, and if you have not worked that one out yet, I strongly suggest you read Beating the Fascists.


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## Deareg (Jun 15, 2011)

I have already stated that when I moved to London in Jan 87 (of that date I am certain) Dave was already active in RA, so that rules out spring 87 and 88, I obviously can't comment on how long before me that he was active but it must have been at least 86.

I asked Louise to check with M on the Manchester dates and they were the ones that she gave me, so unless you are calling both Louise and M liars then you are wrong about your dates.

I am also certain that the gig in the swinging sporran was before 90 because I moved to Belfast in 89 (another date that I am certain of) I thought it was 88 but no point in me arguing that one because I have no way of checking.

Your last paragraph suggests to me that it is you who is the fantasist.


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## Porkmeister (Jun 16, 2011)

Deareg,

Just a wee point of clarification on the dates re the Swinging Sporran night.

As much as you can remember when you moved to Belfast, I can also clearly remember when I moved to Manchester: October 1989.

I also remember a couple of months in dodgy jobs in Manchester before moving to London to work in March 1990 

The night at the Swinging Sporran was my first purely AFA/anti fascist event. A night I’ll never forget.  

I’m pretty sure you were back from Belfast for an extended stay…possibly looking for a bit of work??? Pretty sure you were doing a bit of circuit training at the time with N??

My second AFA event when I moved to England was Weavers Field after I moved to London to work. This was just as unforgettable as the Swinning Sporran. As much as I thought I knew what AFA was all about, I was certainly in no doubt after these two events. 

The swinging sporran was definitely in between me moving to Manchester Oct 1989 and moving to London March 1990. And it was certainly after the Martyrs march that year. At the earliest it was Dec 89 and latest was Feb 90. 


I was never as glad to see the local calvary coming over the hill that night, cos anyone there that night knew we needed it. And it was down to the local AFA people that we dug ourselves out a hole that night. 

I certainly knew I was in at the deep end with AFA after both these events, as I said unforgettable. It’s also clear to me when they happened. I’m 100% on the dates.


I really can’t understand why Dave didn’t mention the night at the Sporran in No Retreat. This was the first event he organised when he moved to Manchester. Not only his starting point in Manchester AFA but mine as well. Why wouldn’t you mention that in your book?? Dave and me got involved in Manchester about the same time, and it was definitely 1989 and not 1987, as we both came onto the Manchester Martyrs Committee in 1989.


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## sumud (Jun 16, 2011)

Ah Denis, I'm sure you though your family were ok until one of them stabbed.....well you know the story. I'd also say you though that informer and his child abusing brother were ok, oh actually, you still do!


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## LiamO (Jun 16, 2011)

sumud said:


> Ah Denis, I'm sure you though your family were ok until one of them stabbed.....well you know the story. I'd also say you though that informer and his child abusing brother were ok, oh actually, you still do!


 
well done. You have surpassed yourself.


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## The39thStep (Jun 16, 2011)

sumud said:


> Ah Denis, I'm sure you though your family were ok until one of them stabbed.....well you know the story. I'd also say you though that informer and his child abusing brother were ok, oh actually, you still do!


 
Let me refer the jury to a previous post of yours:



> Two questions about the book. Does the book discuss the activities of a notorious manchester criminal and good friend of AFA/RA who turned out to be a paid informer for the state and does the book mention the serious assault on a homeless wino by three senior AFA/RA members in Londaon after a nights drinking?



Come on sumod put some meat on these bones, a bit ago you were telling us that everything would be revealed on indymedia weren't you or perhaps you could tell us all about your cv?


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## Deareg (Jun 16, 2011)

Porkmeister, I still can't remember the year for definite myself, but your dates don't tie in with what was happening in my life at that time, any work that I came back to England for was always to London and as my daughter was born in March 90 and I was also out on bail up until shortly before, from Oct 89 when I was arrested at Liverpool docks getting on the boat to Belfast until I got the charges dropped in Jan or Feb 90, I had to sign bail 3 times a week at New Barnsley barracks in Belfast, so there is no way that I could have or even would have been in Manchester then

Anyway, Why should M lie about when Dave moved to Manchester? If anyone should know the date then surely it is her?

Any chance of giving me a clue who you are?


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## sumud (Jun 17, 2011)

Denis, your jealousy over the success of Red Attitude and your failure to maintain it is sad. Move along sadman, the story is history.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Jun 17, 2011)

_Red Pepper_, _Look Left_, and the_ Journal of Socialist History_


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## Joe Reilly (Jun 17, 2011)

Inigo Montoya said:


> Cheers for that.
> 
> Has there been anymore reviews besides that one, Freedom Press and Malatesta.



_Red Pepper, Look Left_ and the _Journal of Socialist History
_


----------



## LiamO (Jun 17, 2011)

Deareg said:


> Porkmeister,
> 
> Any chance of giving me a clue who you are?


 
Come on Deareg, ffs.  All you need to know is in his the first four letters of his user name  You know him well and like him too AFAIK, as did Dave.


----------



## LiamO (Jun 17, 2011)

sumud said:


> Denis, your jealousy over the success of Red Attitude and your failure to maintain it is sad. Move along sadman, the story is history.


 
The rancid bitterness of your posts is matched only by the ingenuous nature of the nonsense you present as 'facts'. Jog on, Troll.


----------



## barney_pig (Jun 17, 2011)

just got my copy from freedom, I haven't read it yet, as I also have a copy of the boonot gang book to read.
 i am in an odd position as throughout the events described I was coccooned in the vice like cotton wool grip of the swp, and as such ignorant of events that were occurring only a few miles up the road. where the book deals with events I had personal experience of (in Leeds especially) it seems to hit the nail on the head. of course, the writers had no access to , and less interest as well, in internal swp shennanigans.
 i remember at the time that the bnp/c18 were running amok, and the swp locally were in total denial, when a swp gay couple were being threatened and attacked on their council estate they were told they were being hysterical. cars were burnt out, and the party chided the comrades as being overly materialist, party members who called for a serious response were threatened with expulsion. all this changed after cliff was attacked at a party meeting, and the fash attacked more important swappies.
  when sue clegg's house was attacked the special branch came round '"we believe this attack to be political, can you think of anyone else who might be targetted?"
 "oih yes" says cmde clegg and hands over the yorkshire membership lists for the anl.

 i have told this story before, but it shows just how unserious these professional revolutionaries were.
also the swp member who got his skull caved by the c18 with a claw hammer was later expelled for complaining about the local party's attitude to anti fascist work


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## Deareg (Jun 17, 2011)

LiamO said:


> Come on Deareg, ffs.  All you need to know is in his the first four letters of his user name  You know him well and like him too AFAIK, as did Dave.


 
I think it might be GM but wanted to know for sure.


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## ayatollah (Jun 17, 2011)

Yes indeedy barney pig, the SWP's unseriousness towards fascist , or any other sourced, violence towards its own members goes back a long, long,  way. I well remember in circa 1974/75 going up to Blackburn with a few chums to have a polite word with an (asian) gangster who had beaten up a local Asian SWP (or was it IS still then ?)  member at the behest of  corrupt Mr Bigs in the Asian community. Anyway the gangster was tipped off and fled out of town leaving us sitting around in a pub. I later learned that there had been a full and frank debate on the WHOLE issue at the local open branch meeting that very night ! The IS/SWP as an organisation always had the security awareness of a kindergarten class. Most strange for an avowedly revolutionary organisation. (Well I thought it was one during most of my 10 years as a member).


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## Deareg (Jun 17, 2011)

LiamO said:


> The rancid bitterness of your posts is matched only by the ingenuous nature of the nonsense you present as 'facts'. Jog on, Troll.


 
Liam, if he/she is displaying bitterness and presenting nonsense as fact, he/she is not the only one.


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## The39thStep (Jun 17, 2011)

barney_pig said:


> just got my copy from freedom, I haven't read it yet, as I also have a copy of the boonot gang book to read.
> i am in an odd position as throughout the events described I was coccooned in the vice like cotton wool grip of the swp, and as such ignorant of events that were occurring only a few miles up the road. where the book deals with events I had personal experience of (in Leeds especially) it seems to hit the nail on the head. of course, the writers had no access to , and less interest as well, in internal swp shennanigans.
> i remember at the time that the bnp/c18 were running amok, and the swp locally were in total denial, when a swp gay couple were being threatened and attacked on their council estate they were told they were being hysterical. cars were burnt out, and the party chided the comrades as being overly materialist, party members who called for a serious response were threatened with expulsion. all this changed after cliff was attacked at a party meeting, and the fash attacked more important swappies.
> when sue clegg's house was attacked the special branch came round '"we believe this attack to be political, can you think of anyone else who might be targetted?"
> ...


 
auditech was involved in anti fascist activity in Leeds ,it would be intersting to hear his account of this period


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## Inigo Montoya (Jun 17, 2011)

Joe Reilly said:


> _Red Pepper_, _Look Left_, and the_ Journal of Socialist History_


 
Thanks for that. Is the review in the Journal of Socialist History available online anywhere?


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## Demu (Jun 17, 2011)

Deareg said:


> Liam, if he/she is displaying bitterness and presenting nonsense as fact, he/she is not the only one.



Fair play to you Deareg, how magnanimous.


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## Deareg (Jun 17, 2011)

Demu said:


> Fair play to you Deareg, how magnanimous.


 
In what way?


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## audiotech (Jun 18, 2011)

The39thStep said:


> auditech was involved in anti fascist activity in Leeds ,it would be intersting to hear his account of this period



What period is it? If it's the 90's then after my time. Although, I did attend one static demo, early 90's I think? Previous weeks people had been attacked selling papers, specifically a woman by a couple of fascists, who ripped papers out of her hand and made threatening gestures. The attacker and the incident was photographed and featured on the cover of Searchlight. The fascists made a showing at the static demo I attended, but were heavily outnumbered. A few verbal's and then they went. I know about the one car being torched. I also heard some member was followed home and while he was upstairs in the shower some fascists entered his home. He had a lucky escape, as they went when he came downstairs. Locking the door would have been the sensible option. SC's house attacked? Haven't heard that? How would barney_pig know about the Yorkshire ANL membership list being handed over, if it was? Gay couple being threatened? Not heard that? Cliff attacked? When and where was this? It got a bit dodgy for a short while.


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## love detective (Jun 18, 2011)

Joe Reilly said:


> _Red Pepper, Look Left_ and the _Journal of Socialist History
> _


 
and not forgetting that one we got in the dubai times or whatever it was called!


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## Porkmeister (Jun 19, 2011)

Deareg said:


> Porkmeister, I still can't remember the year for definite myself, but your dates don't tie in with what was happening in my life at that time, any work that I came back to England for was always to London and as my daughter was born in March 90 and I was also out on bail up until shortly before, from Oct 89 when I was arrested at Liverpool docks getting on the boat to Belfast until I got the charges dropped in Jan or Feb 90, I had to sign bail 3 times a week at New Barnsley barracks in Belfast, so there is no way that I could have or even would have been in Manchester then
> 
> Anyway, Why should M lie about when Dave moved to Manchester? If anyone should know the date then surely it is her?
> 
> Any chance of giving me a clue who you are?


 
Deareg,

There is no doubt about my dates. The Sporran happened after I moved to Manchester and before Weavers Field.

If anything maybe your dates do tie in with mine???

If the charges were dropped against you in Jan or Feb 90 wouldn’t you have been back in England for court at this time??


----------



## Deareg (Jun 19, 2011)

Porkmeister said:


> Deareg,
> 
> There is no doubt about my dates. The Sporran happened after I moved to Manchester and before Weavers Field.
> 
> ...



Porkmeister, first let me start by saying I am not calling you a liar, but there is no doubts about my dates either, I was back in England for my court appearance and was sat in Denis's living room when I got word that the charges had been dropped, as I have said that was either jan or feb 90, if the gig at the sporran had taken place that week I have no doubt that I would have remembered, if the gig had taken place during my getting arrested in oct 89 and getting the bail changed a month to the day I also think that I would have remembered and planned my departure to allow me to be at it.

Can I ask you who you are? and also If you too think Dave was a fantasist and was working for Mi5?

I also asked you why should M lie? do you think she is lieing.


----------



## manny-p (Jun 19, 2011)

I was wondering if the EDL/english nationalists keep attacking/up the attacks on left wing meetings whether the analysis at the end of beating the fascists will change somewhat?(Although I appreciate atm they are nothing compared to the BNP/NF/BM rule the streets types that you lot confronted bk in the day)


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## ayatollah (Jun 19, 2011)

allybaba said:


> I was wondering if the EDL/english nationalists keep attacking/up the attacks on left wing meetings whether the analysis at the end of beating the fascists will change somewhat?(Although I appreciate atm they are nothing compared to the BNP/NF/BM rule the streets types that you lot confronted bk in the day)


 
IS there much evidence of the EDL/English Nationalists engaging in direct attacks on the Left ? Since  direct action anti fascism is a tactical response to fascist violence, rather than some "correct at any time and place" principal,  the reappearance of direct action violent street fascism will in itself produce a reappearance of  what is now generally called "Squadism".

Are we there yet though ? Probably not. However the world  financial crisis which burst open like a putrid boil in 2008, represents , to me, the start of a new era in domestic and world politics. (The end of the entire Post War era  of  one entire phase of the  Long Wave Kondratiev Cycle perhaps) We can already see the more violent manifestations of this in Greece and the Middle East. How long before the British political system  "turns nasty" as the capitalist class attempts to make us pay for the bankers crisis by turning out our collective pockets, is very hard to predict.  

The core point made in BTF, that the Left needs to get into real community based political action in the White Working Class at grass roots level . as with the IWCA initiative, remains totally valid however, regardless of the re-emergence or not of violent street fascism on the back of generalised unrest produced by the new era of destabilised capitalism.


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## manny-p (Jun 19, 2011)

ayatollah said:


> IS there much evidence of the EDL/English Nationalists engaging in direct attacks on the Left ?



http://manchesterafa.org/2011/06/19/edl-attack-rage-against-racism-gig/

There have been quite alot of activity from them recently especially in the north. If these attacks on the left continue and if they escalate I would say it is a worrying development.





ayatollah said:


> The core point made in BTF, that the Left needs to get into real community based political action in the White Working Class at grass roots level . as with the IWCA initiative, remains totally valid however, regardless of the re-emergence or not of violent street fascism on the back of generalised unrest produced by the new era of destabilised capitalism.


I totally agree.


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## audiotech (Jun 19, 2011)

We're not at a stage where meetings/papersales/bookshops/individuals being followed and attacked/houses having their windows put through/slogans daubed on doors/threatening phone calls at all hours etc are happening on a regular basis, nevertheless, it seems a trend of that nature is beginning to emerge? At this stage it appears provocative in nature and so calm heads should prevail to avoid reacting to it. Defence/security should be the order of the day.


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## The39thStep (Jun 20, 2011)

allybaba said:


> http://manchesterafa.org/2011/06/19/edl-attack-rage-against-racism-gig/
> 
> There have been quite alot of activity from them recently especially in the north. If these attacks on the left continue and if they escalate I would say it is a worrying development.
> 
> ...


 
Unfortunately manchester 'AFA' doesn't


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## fiannanahalba (Jun 20, 2011)

Hows that?


----------



## Red Storm (Jun 20, 2011)

The39thStep said:


> Unfortunately manchester 'AFA' doesn't



Elaborate?


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## manny-p (Jun 20, 2011)

The39thStep said:


> Unfortunately manchester 'AFA' doesn't


 


ayatollah said:


> The core point made in BTF, that the Left needs to get into real community based political action in the White Working Class at grass roots level . as with the IWCA initiative, remains totally valid however, regardless of the re-emergence or not of violent street fascism on the back of generalised unrest produced by the new era of destabilised capitalism.



Manchester 'AFA' does not believe in the above point written by ayatollah? In post#1133 it looks like you are quoting me out of context?


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## The39thStep (Jun 20, 2011)

Where is the evidence that Manchestre AFA are attempting to implement  "The core point made in BTF, that the Left needs to get into real community based political action in the White Working Class at grass roots level . as with the IWCA initiative"

If anything it is stuck in a pastiche of the 1980s rhetoric of the original Manchester AFA rather than AFAs conclusion of the need for a political alternative in working class communities. ie MAFA have  given out anti BNP leaflets, turned up to provide security at  a Climate Change barbecue, made some T shirts and badges ( including Free Palestine one) , gone on a few anti EDL demos etc but no attempts at IWCA type work.

I might be mistaken , you might be looking at a pilot site . If I am tell me.


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## manny-p (Jun 20, 2011)

The39thStep said:


> Where is the evidence that Manchestre AFA are attempting to implement  "The core point made in BTF, that the Left needs to get into real community based political action in the White Working Class at grass roots level . as with the IWCA initiative"


 

I didn't say they were. I was just pointing out that their website had a report(which has since been slated as being OTT) about the trouble at the rage against racism gig when some Bradford EDL turned up. I have no affiliations with MAFA.


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## love detective (Jun 20, 2011)

it's just the way the quoting works here, it doesn't quote any quotes that were in the quote being quoted, and it was the quote within the quote that chuck was referring to


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## Red Storm (Jun 20, 2011)

Yeah you're right. I am actually in agreement with the filling the vacuum document and though. However MAFA is a collection of trotskyists, anarchists, labour party and others. MAFA can not provide a working class electoral challenge to the BNP. However is can provide other alternatives but there must be a mass working class alternative, something totally new in my opinion.

I didn't mean to miss quote you. Still don't know the workings of Urban yet. I just clicked the reply with quote button.


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## belboid (Jun 20, 2011)

audiotech said:


> What period is it? If it's the 90's then after my time. Although, I did attend one static demo, early 90's I think? Previous weeks people had been attacked selling papers, specifically a woman by a couple of fascists, who ripped papers out of her hand and made threatening gestures. The attacker and the incident was photographed and featured on the cover of Searchlight. The fascists made a showing at the static demo I attended, but were heavily outnumbered. A few verbal's and then they went. I know about the one car being torched. I also heard some member was followed home and while he was upstairs in the shower some fascists entered his home. He had a lucky escape, as they went when he came downstairs. Locking the door would have been the sensible option. SC's house attacked? Haven't heard that? How would barney_pig know about the Yorkshire ANL membership list being handed over, if it was? Gay couple being threatened? Not heard that? Cliff attacked? When and where was this? It got a bit dodgy for a short while.


 
Tihs largely happened just before, but mostly  just after, I'd left Leeds. I remember the gay couple from the south of the city (where we didnt have that many members) were indeed threatened, and attacked onec, iirr.  Not particularly badly, I dont think, but there were definite threats. 

The Yorks ANL list did find its way into the hands of the police, _word was_ someone just handed it over, but I find it very hard to believe it was Sue Clegg. I cant think of any attack on Cliff tho.


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## past caring (Jun 20, 2011)

The trouble was there was much that went on that ordinary SWP members were not aware of - were actively kept in the dark about, in fact. Remember, there were no internal party structures that would allow ordinary members to share experiences with others in different parts of the country - everything went through the centre and it was before the days of access to e-mail lists/the internet.

The leadership at the time were very much wanting to downplay/deny that the fash were attacking the left/the party in any consistent way (didn't want squads a second time around, amongst other reasons) so denial of what was going on was _de facto_ policy. I certainly wasn't aware of the stuff in Leeds, for instance - and I don't think anyone else in London outside of the leadership was, either (a few individuals who were in touch with friends may have been aware, but on that basis only - not because of it being communicated by the leadership). I was certainly aware of several attacks on members in London around 91-92 that were kept from the wider membership.

p.s. - this is not the first time I've heard of an incident involving Cliff (don't think it was on here I heard either) though it may have been no more than an attempt to attack a meeting at which he was speaking.


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## ayatollah (Jun 20, 2011)

Nothing changes with the SWP or Left then...The inability of SWPers, and other Lefties generally,  to believe that anyone would want to hurt them was sometimes quite astonishing. In other words for most Lefties Revolutionary politics was really just a posture, a lifestyle thing.

 This incident may well  have been covered in No Retreat, I forget, but in around 77/78 whilst simply  en route to a favourite SWP pub on Deansgate in Manchester one evening for a drink   a group of Squaddists spotted about   20 fascists armed with scaffolding poles  lurking in a nearby alley, about to attack the pub. I vividly recall running into the pub and  literally begging the 10 or so fellow SWPers inside to depart the pub pronto. Fortunately they did, but very slowly and  grudgingly and obviously  disbelieving that any rough types could possibly have their ill health  in mind. 

Fortunately in those days we were then  able to give the Nazis , still surprisingly  lurking in the alleyway,   a very nasty surprise. Yeh,  I think Tilzey does cover that bit in No Retreat.

Sometimes it was tempting to just stand aside and let such naïve  Lefties get a good hiding – but the gain for fascist morale just couldn't be allowed.


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## fiannanahalba (Jun 20, 2011)

The39thStep said:


> Where is the evidence that Manchestre AFA are attempting to implement  "The core point made in BTF, that the Left needs to get into real community based political action in the White Working Class at grass roots level . as with the IWCA initiative"
> 
> If anything it is stuck in a pastiche of the 1980s rhetoric of the original Manchester AFA rather than AFAs conclusion of the need for a political alternative in working class communities. ie MAFA have  given out anti BNP leaflets, turned up to provide security at  a Climate Change barbecue, made some T shirts and badges ( including Free Palestine one) , gone on a few anti EDL demos etc but no attempts at IWCA type work.
> 
> I might be mistaken , you might be looking at a pilot site . If I am tell me.



I dont disagree with that, in fact its spot on.


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## Demu (Jun 20, 2011)

sumud said:


> Ah Denis, I'm sure you though your family were ok until one of them stabbed.....well you know the story. I'd also say you though that informer and his child abusing brother were ok, oh actually, you still do!



Getting lonely over on Indymedia talking to all your aliases was it?

I don't think there has been any doubt over my political allegiances. If you have a problem then spit it out.


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## Demu (Jun 20, 2011)

sumud said:


> Denis, your jealousy over the success of Red Attitude and your failure to maintain it is sad. Move along sadman, the story is history.


 
More than happy to discuss the Red Attitude project with you; just one question, were you actively involved with it?


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## audiotech (Jun 21, 2011)

belboid said:


> The Yorks ANL list did find its way into the hands of the police, _word was_ someone just handed it over, but I find it very hard to believe it was Sue Clegg. I cant think of any attack on Cliff tho.




barney_pig gave some details via pm. Of course it's just his word. I'll leave him to fill you in if he so wishes?


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## bignose1 (Jun 21, 2011)

The Knott Mill Pub...a couple of NF actually got inside briefly...but the rest pontificated..disastrous..pubs with narrow entrances and staircases can be defended quite easily and scaffolding poles arnt the best tools to have in such an environment...was told by KK that the poles came from outside the Town Hall which was being refurbished....how the fcuk did they get down to Deansgate with them without being spotted..maybe the pockets were deeper in them days...I forget.



ayatollah said:


> Nothing changes with the SWP or Left then...The inability of SWPers, and other Lefties generally,  to believe that anyone would want to hurt them was sometimes quite astonishing. In other words for most Lefties Revolutionary politics was really just a posture, a lifestyle thing.
> 
> This incident may well  have been covered in No Retreat, I forget, but in around 77/78 whilst simply  en route to a favourite SWP pub on Deansgate in Manchester one evening for a drink   a group of Squaddists spotted about   20 fascists armed with scaffolding poles  lurking in a nearby alley, about to attack the pub. I vividly recall running into the pub and  literally begging the 10 or so fellow SWPers inside to depart the pub pronto. Fortunately they did, but very slowly and  grudgingly and obviously  disbelieving that any rough types could possibly have their ill health  in mind.
> 
> ...


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## barney_pig (Jun 21, 2011)

I pmed at cos details involved some names of people I still consider decent. The attack on cliff was the attempt to storm the public meeting that he was speaking at a theatre in Leeds city centre, only some spirited defence,largely by comrades who were shortly to be expelled and non members stopped the fash getting in. The details of the clegg issue were pretty common knowledge in the district att, I think that I was originally told by gyp, who was parachuted in as full timer at that time ( though he was quickly parachuted out again). I had been a Swp  member in southampton, and the contrast with Leeds was striking, the permament,almost hereditary nature of the controlling clique and its ability to ride rough shot over anyone who threatened its absolute control. I have somewhere the complete documentation including ccc memos of the deliberate destruction of castleford  branch at the behest of H & S, the Borgias of west riding,


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## Random (Jun 21, 2011)

barney_pig said:


> the attempt to storm the public meeting that he was speaking at a theatre in Leeds city centre, only some spirited defence,largely by comrades who were shortly to be expelled and non members stopped the fash getting in.


 Don't understand how anyone can do this - expel people who've physically defended you. Surely building up trust and fighting alongside each other is what real political movements are built on?


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## Spanky Longhorn (Jun 21, 2011)

Random said:


> Don't understand how anyone can do this - expel people who've physically defended you. Surely building up trust and fighting alongside each other is what real political movements are built on?



Welcome to the SWP!


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## ayatollah (Jun 21, 2011)

bignose1 said:


> The Knott Mill Pub...a couple of NF actually got inside briefly...but the rest pontificated..disastrous..pubs with narrow entrances and staircases can be defended quite easily and scaffolding poles arnt the best tools to have in such an environment...was told by KK that the poles came from outside the Town Hall which was being refurbished....how the fcuk did they get down to Deansgate with them without being spotted..maybe the pockets were deeper in them days...I forget.



I just remember the fascists getting a nasty shock lurking in the alleyway when some very noisy marine rocket flares were shot in amongst them from a passing car, bouncing all around them off the alley walls - broke up their determination somewhat ! "Ah the smell of rocket flares in the evening" to rework the Apocalypse Now quote !


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## Nigel Irritable (Jun 21, 2011)

Random said:


> Don't understand how anyone can do this - expel people who've physically defended you. Surely building up trust and fighting alongside each other is what real political movements are built on?



I'm not suggesting for a second that the people who got expelled deserved it. God knows, the SWP was and is pretty trigger happy when it comes to booting out the uppitty. But in theory, there's absolutely no reason why being willing and able to swing a fist when necessary should get you special privileges if you flout the rules.

The real problem was the SWP's habitual use of expulsions to settle political disputes. Not the fact that some of the people expelled on one particular occasion were handy in a fight.


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## gawkrodger (Jun 21, 2011)

I suppose this is the best thread for this

Brum RA and AFA member N.B. has been hospitalised after suffering a stroke. 

Anyone who knows him who wishes to pass on a get well message  pm me and I'll send you relevant contact info


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## Fedayn (Jun 21, 2011)

Aye, DF mextioned this elsewhere.


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## miktheword (Jun 21, 2011)

Nigel Irritable said:


> I'm not suggesting for a second that the people who got expelled deserved it. God knows, the SWP was and is pretty trigger happy when it comes to booting out the uppitty. But in theory, there's absolutely no reason why being willing and able to swing a fist when necessary should get you special privileges if you flout the rules.
> 
> The real problem was the SWP's habitual use of expulsions to settle political disputes. Not the fact that some of the people expelled on one particular occasion were handy in a fight.




the real problem wasn't just their tactical use of expulsions. Surely it had a lot to do with the fact that those who could fight were exclusively working class. Not where that party really orientates itself. 

I've always believed as well, that if there ever is a revolutionary situation in this country, all ideas are turned upside down, and the revolting working class are not going to listen to a middle class leadership - no matter what party it comes from.

So, those vanguardists may as well give up. 
never knew what made them tick anyway.


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## Nigel Irritable (Jun 21, 2011)

miktheword said:


> the real problem wasn't just their tactical use of expulsions. Surely it had a lot to do with the fact that those who could fight were exclusively working class.



No reason why being working class should get you a free pass on the rules of a voluntary organisation either. The SWP are no more likely to expel their working class recruits than they are their middle class ones. They gave Workers Power their marching orders just as happily as they gave them to the proto-Red Action. 

And anyway, experience at fighting is more skewed by gender than by class. The world has no shortage of beefy rugby playing ex-public school boys who know how to fight. In fact it could do with a few less!


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## The39thStep (Jun 21, 2011)

Is the book right in pointing out that Militant pretty much abstained physically and then bottled out politically on the Isle of Dogs?


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## Nigel Irritable (Jun 21, 2011)

The39thStep said:


> Is the book right in pointing out that Militant pretty much abstained physically and then bottled out politically on the Isle of Dogs?



I wasn't there, but I wouldn't trust Red Action's account of the actions or words of any other left group.


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## Joe Reilly (Jun 21, 2011)

Nigel Irritable said:


> I wasn't there, but I wouldn't trust Red Action's account of the actions or words of any other left group.



Did Militant offer the working class an alternative to Labour and the BNP on the Isle of Dogs or not?


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## Nigel Irritable (Jun 21, 2011)

Joe Reilly said:


> Did Militant offer the working class an alternative to Labour and the BNP on the Isle of Dogs or not?



I wasn't there and neither know nor particularly care. I trust the political and tactical assessments of Militant rather more than I'd ever trust the words of Red Action.


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## past caring (Jun 21, 2011)

"Don't bore me with facts!"


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## TopCat (Jun 21, 2011)

Nigel Irritable said:


> I wasn't there and neither know nor particularly care. I trust the political and tactical assessments of Militant rather more than I'd ever trust the words of Red Action.


 
Frame it someone.


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## Nigel Irritable (Jun 21, 2011)

past caring said:


> "Don't bore me with facts!"



More don't bore me with the predictable drivel from Red Action's past it pub bores. You can script in advance what they'll say about every other left group. And that they will have nothing to say about the failure of their own political project. How are those "pilot schemes' getting along, by the way? Aren't they an inherently more interesting subject than what tactical line Militant took in an East London ward years ago?


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## The39thStep (Jun 21, 2011)

Nigel Irritable said:


> More don't bore me with the predictable drivel from Red Action's past it pub bores. You can script in advance what they'll say about every other left group. And that they will have nothing to say about the failure of their own political project. How are those "pilot schemes' getting along, by the way? Aren't they an inherently more interesting subject than what tactical line Militant took in an East London ward years ago?


 
To be fair I did ask the question re the isle of Dogs first


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## Nigel Irritable (Jun 21, 2011)

The39thStep said:


> To be fair I did ask the question re the isle of Dogs first



Don't worry, given that you've been a groupie for so long, you are a kind of honourary Red Action past it pub bore.

You've been an IWCA member/supporter/sympathiser for how long now? How often do you discuss the IWCA's failure to grow or maintain itself?


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## The39thStep (Jun 21, 2011)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Don't worry, given that you've been a groupie for so long, you are a kind of honourary Red Action past it pub bore.
> 
> You've been an IWCA member/supporter/sympathiser for how long now? How often do you discuss the IWCA's failure to grow or maintain itself?



Not sure why you would say 'past it'
a) About eight years I guess. b)Recieve and contribute to weekly bulletins and welcome to discuss anytime.Start a new thread?

In the meantime seeing as you have joined this  thread can you try and answer the question that I asked . Get in touch with HQ if you are unsure.


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## Pickman's model (Jun 21, 2011)

Nigel Irritable said:


> I wasn't there and neither know nor particularly care. I trust the political and tactical assessments of Militant rather more than I'd ever trust the words of Red Action.


 
like the 'we're prepared to name names' comments of thomas sheridan and steven nally?


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## Fedayn (Jun 21, 2011)

Nigel Irritable said:


> More don't bore me with the predictable drivel from Red Action's past it pub bores. You can script in advance what they'll say about every other left group. And that they will have nothing to say about the failure of their own political project. How are those "pilot schemes' getting along, by the way? Aren't they an inherently more interesting subject than what tactical line Militant took in an East London ward years ago?


 
In fairness it is an issue mentioned in the book that this thread is about. Hardly off topic or uninteresting in context.


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## The39thStep (Jun 21, 2011)

Fedayn said:


> In fairness it is an issue mentioned in the book that this thread is about. Hardly off topic or uninteresting in context.


 
Exactly and there are some political arguements in the book that are both challenging and are open to challenge


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## Joe Reilly (Jun 21, 2011)

Nigel Irritable said:


> No reason why being working class should get you a free pass on the rules of a voluntary organisation either. The SWP are no more likely to expel their working class recruits than they are their middle class ones. They gave Workers Power their marching orders just as happily as they gave them to the proto-Red Action.



Wrong again. The SWP had a credible record in expelling/sidelining any working class activist that didn't show due deference to their betters. Dockers leader Micky Fenn, Brian Higgins a leading figure in UCATT, engineering workers in the Midlands, Cricklewood and Clapton, uniquely working class branches all bounced for trivial or no reasons. If the SWP ever had any intention of being a proper working class party they would have been cherished instead. Indeed Fenn and Higgins should have been on the CC if as I say they really wanted a party representative of the class. Instead it was then as it is now packed out with fifth (probably being kind there?) rate academics. 
Finally it wasn't because fought that they were expelled - it was as ever, the thinking behind the militancy that caused the bother. Why else would the likes of Anna Sullivan, and a host of other female activists have been demonised as well?


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## Joe Reilly (Jun 21, 2011)

Nigel Irritable said:


> More don't bore me with the predictable drivel from Red Action's past it pub bores. You can script in advance what they'll say about every other left group. And that they will have nothing to say about the failure of their own political project. How are those "pilot schemes' getting along, by the way? Aren't they an inherently more interesting subject than what tactical line Militant took in an East London ward years ago?



The line Militant took on the Isle of Digs years ago was instrumental in helping the IWCA come about. Not up for it physically, not up for it politically either was the conclusion.


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## Nigel Irritable (Jun 22, 2011)

Joe Reilly said:


> The line Militant took on the Isle of Digs years ago was instrumental in helping the IWCA come about.



So come on, how's it going for you then? Where's the penetrating analysis and insistence on looking truth in the face that Red Action allegedly were so keen on?


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## Nigel Irritable (Jun 22, 2011)

Joe Reilly said:


> Wrong again. The SWP had a credible record in expelling/sidelining any working class activist that didn't show due deference to their betters.



The SWP "had a credible record in expelling/sidelining" any activist who didn't show due deference to the leadership. Bar an occasional licensed semi-rebel in the Molyneux mould. If you do what your told, you won't get expelled, whether you are a horny handed son of toil or a granddaughter of a Baron.


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## Random (Jun 22, 2011)

Nigel Irritable said:


> But in theory, there's absolutely no reason why being willing and able to swing a fist when necessary should get you special privileges if you flout the rules.


 Nigel you're a bloodless bureaucrat-in-waiting and it's no surprise you don't get this aspect of politics.


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## ayatollah (Jun 22, 2011)

Nigel Irritable said:


> And anyway, experience at fighting is more skewed by gender than by class. The world has no shortage of beefy rugby playing ex-public school boys who know how to fight. In fact it could do with a few less!



It is obviously the case that there is no shortage of people who are unafraid of physical confrontation in the wider British middle class – the majority of British army officers still come from this class – indeed from the Public School upper classes.

However, how many of this sort of middle class person is common on the Left ?  I was involved in the physical side of anti  fascist work across the North West from 1971 to 1987, and I can categorically state that of the literally hundreds of people I worked with in various capacities at the physical end of the activity spectrum, from simple meeting stewarding, to heavier activities, only a handful were drawn from the middle classes.

I strongly suspect this will have been RA's experience too.

For some sociological  reason the vast majority of middle class Lefties were always hopeless "on the pavement" to use a Micky Fennism, and made bloody sure they stayed well away from it.

Why is Nigel Irritating on this thread ?  Is it a spoof ?  No-one could genuinely be so sneeringly pompous surely ? Nah, it's completely over the top.. Come on, it's really you Gary , winding us all up. Good one mate.


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## bignose1 (Jun 22, 2011)

Random said:


> Don't understand how anyone can do this - expel people who've physically defended you. Surely building up trust and fighting alongside each other is what real political movements are built on?


 
They did us a favour!!


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## love detective (Jun 24, 2011)

Inigo Montoya said:


> Cheers for that.
> 
> Has there been anymore reviews besides that one, Freedom Press and Malatesta.



All the reviews are on the beating the fascists site now - will put the journal one up when it's available and any others when they arrive (copsey etc..)

also will be putting up some old footage, photos and back issues of RA/FT there along with some other marketing/publicity stuff for the book


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## Joe Reilly (Jun 24, 2011)

ayatollah said:


> It is obviously the case that there is no shortage of people who are unafraid of physical confrontation in the wider British middle class – the majority of British army officers still come from this class – indeed from the Public School upper classes.
> 
> However, how many of this sort of middle class person is common on the Left ?  I was involved in the physical side of anti  fascist work across the North West from 1971 to 1987, and I can categorically state that of the literally hundreds of people I worked with in various capacities at the physical end of the activity spectrum, from simple meeting stewarding, to heavier activities, only a handful were drawn from the middle classes.
> 
> ...



It was ever thus. In_ 'Beating the Fascists?_' by Eve Rosenhaft, she examines in forensic detail the anti-fascist forces involved in the fight against the Brownshirts in the Weimar Republic. In a chapter headed 'Who were the anti-fascists?' she explores through the use of court records and so forth the social background of the activists at the coal-face. Overwhelmingly, she concluded not only was the class character of the anti-fascist movement working class, it was actual manual workers who invariably provided the cutting edge. All round it is an excellent study, BTF writ large if you like, and gives the lie to the persistent smear by Nigel and his ilk, that the rank and file KPD either collaborated or dragged their feet in the struggle against the paramiliary right. In truth they were the only ones really up for it. The real culprits in this regard being the SDP who tellingly always find apologists among Trots.


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## ayatollah (Jun 24, 2011)

You may have thought of this already (I discussed this with Demu yesterday), but the Amazon Kindle apparently now accounts for more Amazon booksales than traditional printed books. Given the difficulties with BTF distribution in recent months have you thought of getting it set up as an Amazon Kindle  E book download ? (You still charge for it - online)   I admit I aint got a Kindle myself yet - but it is obvious that within a few years we'll all have them.  Just a thought.


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## Nigel Irritable (Jun 24, 2011)

Joe Reilly said:


> It was ever thus. In_gives the lie to the persistent smear by Nigel and his ilk, that the rank and file KPD either collaborated or dragged their feet in the struggle against the paramiliary right._


_

What on earth are you talking about?_


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## flickerx (Jun 24, 2011)

I just bought this book today, going to Malaga next week for a ten day holiday, looking forward to reading it start to finish.


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## DrRingDing (Jun 25, 2011)

flickerx said:


> I just bought this book today, going to Malaga next week for a ten day holiday, looking forward to reading it start to finish.


 
It won't take 10 ten days.


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## cogg (Jun 25, 2011)

DrRingDing said:


> It won't take 10 ten days.


 
No it won't. I read the draft before the final one in an evening.


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## Red O (Jun 25, 2011)

love detective said:


> All the reviews are on the beating the fascists site now - will put the journal one up when it's available and any others when they arrive (copsey etc..)
> 
> also will be putting up some old footage, photos and back issues of RA/FT there along with some other marketing/publicity stuff for the book



Also found this one: http://mhm.hud.ac.uk/newsroom/story/beating-fascists-untold-story-anti-fascist-action-sean-birchall


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## flickerx (Jun 25, 2011)

DrRingDing said:


> It won't take 10 ten days.



Yes I know that. I was merely saying I am on holiday for ten days, and will have some free time on the beach to read this book.


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## imposs1904 (Jun 25, 2011)

Red O said:


> Also found this one: http://mhm.hud.ac.uk/newsroom/story/beating-fascists-untold-story-anti-fascist-action-sean-birchall



From that review:



> "Recommended, for both academic and *casual readers*."



snotty sod


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## love detective (Jun 25, 2011)

Red O said:


> Also found this one: http://mhm.hud.ac.uk/newsroom/story/beating-fascists-untold-story-anti-fascist-action-sean-birchall


 
cheers, have put it up


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## Citizen66 (Jun 25, 2011)

Just read Gang War about Manchester gangs which credits 'Dessie'Noonan as single handedly closing down Manchester BNP. I dont doubt his reputation but it chimes somewhat differently from other accounts and the involvement of other people.


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## The39thStep (Jun 25, 2011)

Citizen66 said:


> Just read Gang War about Manchester gangs which credits 'Dessie'Noonan as single handedly closing down Manchester BNP. I dont doubt his reputation but it chimes somewhat differently from other accounts and the involvement of other people.


 
Its a shite book mainly composed of clippings from the Manchester Evening News and journo stories.


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## Citizen66 (Jun 25, 2011)

Id agree with that. It was a 'holiday read'and a precursor to me reading The Hacienda by Peter Hook.


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## Demu (Jun 25, 2011)

Citizen66 said:


> Just read Gang War about Manchester gangs which credits 'Dessie'Noonan as single handedly closing down Manchester BNP. I dont doubt his reputation but it chimes somewhat differently from other accounts and the involvement of other people.



The authentic version of what happened to the Manchester BNP branch, founded by 'Kenny Rogers' can be found in BTF.

This does differ somewhat from the claims made in both Gang Wars and No Retreat.

For the record Dessie Noonan was an active anti fascist for a good 20 years to my knowledge.


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## Citizen66 (Jun 25, 2011)

Fair play to him. rip.


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## gawkrodger (Jun 27, 2011)

review I've just stumbled across

http://brianwhelan.net/post/6033834484/street-politics-beating-the-fascists


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## malatesta32 (Jun 30, 2011)

ayatollah said:


> IS there much evidence of the EDL/English Nationalists engaging in direct attacks on the Left ? Since  direct action anti fascism is a tactical response to fascist violence, rather than some "correct at any time and place" principal,  the reappearance of direct action violent street fascism will in itself produce a reappearance of  what is now generally called "Squadism".
> 
> Ayatollah, there is an increasing record of ENA/EDL attacking meetings etc. just off the top of me head oldham and manc SWP turned over a while back, Liverpool News From Nowhere shop intimidated, brighton antifascist meeting attacked, leeds antifa gig attacked and no doubt plenty of others. the EDL are now under heavy manners from plod and are organising more secretively having also realised that flash demos are difficult for both plod and antifascists to 'apprehend.' what is good is that they are fragmenting and their leadership is under pressure: robinson has half a dozen charges against him not all EDL related, guramit singh has left, roberta moore expelled, joel titus jailed, richard price nicked on drug and kiddy porn charges, snowy excluded and now ranting about the protocols of zion. so the token sikh, jewish rep and 'mixed race' members are now gone and the EDL are looking like increasingly 'white' mob rather than their 'multicultural racist' appearance that they had before.  the question is do antifascists do anything or do we simply watch them fall apart?


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## malatesta32 (Jun 30, 2011)

love detective said:


> All the reviews are on the beating the fascists site now - will put the journal one up when it's available and any others when they arrive (copsey etc..)
> 
> also will be putting up some old footage, photos and back issues of RA/FT there along with some other marketing/publicity stuff for the book


LD, there is a serious lack of scans of original fighting talks and red action stuff as well as photos of action - apart from the well known few that are already duplicated many times (i did see a copy of fighting talk on amazon going for 7 quid). if anyone can upload this stuff to the site it would be invaluable for researchers to use or draw on. the clandestine nature of militant antifascism has its down side!


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## love detective (Jun 30, 2011)

there's a file going around with a large number of issues of fighting talk (in fact Manchester 'anti fascist alliance' are actually selling it which is a bit cheeky) - however this isn't a complete set of all issues

the intention is for the complete set of FT and RA to eventually go up


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## love detective (Jun 30, 2011)

gawkrodger said:


> review I've just stumbled across
> 
> http://brianwhelan.net/post/6033834484/street-politics-beating-the-fascists



I posted that one up a good few page back

The journalist who did this interview was the journalist who set off the whole hari scandal the other day (he didn't find the original negri plaigraism, but did the digging on the other stuff and made it go viral on twitter/the media etc..


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## Nigel Irritable (Jun 30, 2011)

love detective said:


> I posted that one up a good few page back
> 
> The journalist who did this interview was the journalist who set off the whole hari scandal the other day (he didn't find the original negri plaigraism, but did the digging on the other stuff and made it go viral on twitter/the media etc..



Apparently he's been getting astronomical numbers of hits on his personal web page through Hari related links from the Telegraph and Tory bloggers of the Guido Fawkes variety. His review of Beating the Fascists is probably getting a rather surprised and surprising new audience.


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## love detective (Jun 30, 2011)

yeah we set the whole thing up so it would work like that - traditional routes of marketing weren't reaping dividends


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## past caring (Jun 30, 2011)

malatesta32 said:


> LD, there is a serious lack of scans of original fighting talks and red action stuff as well as photos of action - apart from the well known few that are already duplicated many times *(i did see a copy of fighting talk on amazon going for 7 quid).* if anyone can upload this stuff to the site it would be invaluable for researchers to use or draw on. the clandestine nature of militant antifascism has its down side!











Cash in the fucking attic lads.


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## MellySingsDoom (Jun 30, 2011)

malatesta32 - search a few pages into the most recent parts of this thread, and you'll see (with many thanks to butchersapron and Fozzie Bear), a ZIP/RAR file containing the entire run of "Fighting Talk".


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## gawkrodger (Jun 30, 2011)

and linked to this topic

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/threads/351452-quot-anti-facists-quot-face-jail


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## Red Storm (Jun 30, 2011)

How is it cheeky? I bought it off eBay and there isn't any copywrite on it. 

Plus don't you think it's good for new people getting involved to read old literature?


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## butchersapron (Jun 30, 2011)

What are you selling exactly?


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## malatesta32 (Jun 30, 2011)

MellySingsDoom said:


> malatesta32 - search a few pages into the most recent parts of this thread, and you'll see (with many thanks to butchersapron and Fozzie Bear), a ZIP/RAR file containing the entire run of "Fighting Talk".


 
thanks loads for that. i did see it but forgot where it was. all info gratefully received. we are planning a book on antifascism (1920s  - present) with a particular focus on AFA, RA etc and including recent developments with the EDL etc.


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## love detective (Jun 30, 2011)

MellySingsDoom said:


> malatesta32 - search a few pages into the most recent parts of this thread, and you'll see (with many thanks to butchersapron and Fozzie Bear), a ZIP/RAR file containing the entire run of "Fighting Talk".


 
it doesn't contain the entire run though, there's some missing issues in that file


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## Red Storm (Jun 30, 2011)

It's a CD with old fighting talks and other literature. It's not a complete list unfortunately, I spoke to someone involved with BtF and he said they're going to get them all on the BtF website. 

Here is a discription: 

This is a collection of scanned PDF copies of FIGHTING TALK magazine which was published by Anti-Fascist Action during the 1990′s.

A text document of ‘FILLING THE VACUUM’ is included in this collection, as is the pamphlet ‘AFA: AN INTRODUCTION TO LONDON ANTI-FASCIST ACTION’, published in 1991.

The copies of FIGHTING TALK that are included are: 2,4,8,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21.

Also included are:

ANTI-FASCIST ACTION – 1985-2001 – A SHORT HISTORY (Word document)
ANTI-FASCIST ACTION – RADICAL RESISTANCE OR RENT-A-MOB? (PDF)
BASH THE FASH – ANTI-FASCIST RECOLLECTIONS 1984-1993 (Rich Text document)
THE CHARGE OF THE NEW RED BRIGADE (article on Red Action) – 1995 (Rich- Text document)
NO QUARTER – ISSUE ONE (AFA – IRELAND) – 2002 (Rich Text document)
MEMOIRS OF A STREET FIGHTING MAN (on AFA’s arch rivals, Combat 18) – 1997 (Rich Text document)

Plus a folder of ANTI-FASCIST GRAPHICS.

These journals are now incredibly rare and constitute a largely hidden slice of political history and are essential reading for anyone interested in the history of anti-fascism on this island.

The magazines are supplied on a CD-Rom in a plain DVD case.


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## love detective (Jun 30, 2011)

Red Storm said:


> How is it cheeky? I bought it off eBay and there isn't any copywrite on it.
> 
> Plus don't you think it's good for new people getting involved to read old literature?


 
because you shouldn't be charging people for something that should be made freely available (and will be made freely available on the beating the fascists site)  - people are less likely to read it if you're making that read dependent upon a fee being paid


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## butchersapron (Jun 30, 2011)

**


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## butchersapron (Jun 30, 2011)

Red Storm said:


> It's a CD with old fighting talks and other literature. It's not a complete list unfortunately, I spoke to someone involved with BtF and he said they're going to get them all on the BtF website.
> 
> Here is a discription:
> 
> ...


 Who did you buy this off of on ebay? 

(Not worth a big argument over this, but this does interest me)


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## malatesta32 (Jun 30, 2011)

Plus a folder of ANTI-FASCIST GRAPHICS.

These journals are now incredibly rare and constitute a largely hidden slice of political history and are essential reading for anyone interested in the history of anti-fascism on this island.

The magazines are supplied on a CD-Rom in a plain DVD case.[/QUOTE]

thats great news. the clandestine nature of militant antifascism discourages documentation which is why BtF is so important (and entertaining!). these are hidden histories that 'official' antifascists like dave renton never cover accurately cos they just werent there!


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## butchersapron (Jun 30, 2011)

On ebay?


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## love detective (Jun 30, 2011)

that's from the add on the manchester anti fascist alliance site that's selling it (that i referred to on the previous page)


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## butchersapron (Jun 30, 2011)

This though, where they got it from:



> How is it cheeky? I bought it off eBay and there isn't any copywrite on it.



Is there someone knocking this out?


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## past caring (Jun 30, 2011)

Yes - here.

Cheaper on the MAFA site at £2.50 inc. p&p as opposed to £1.99 = 99p p&p off e-bay.

Both more than a bit cheeky though.


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## butchersapron (Jun 30, 2011)

It's even got my misspelling of the quick 'FILLING THE VACUUM' job i did.


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## butchersapron (Jun 30, 2011)

As is AFA: AN INTRODUCTION TO LONDON ANTI-FASCIST ACTION' when i couldn't be bothered to change the caps.


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## Fozzie Bear (Jun 30, 2011)

love detective said:


> it doesn't contain the entire run though, there's some missing issues in that file


 
Yeah it's just what I had lurking around the flat - before it all went on ebay a couple of years back. 

Oddly one of the people who bought some copies off me was Dave Hann.

As has been said, it would be great if all the FTs etc were online - an excellent addition to "Beating The Fascists" and a really good example of how to do a political magazine that will actually get read cover to cover, imho.


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## MellySingsDoom (Jun 30, 2011)

Er, whoops, sorry to all for the misinformation on my part  - I hold my hands up on that one.  As others have said, a full FT would be an excellent resource.


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## past caring (Jun 30, 2011)

malatesta32 said:


> thanks loads for that. i did see it but forgot where it was. all info gratefully received. we are planning a book on antifascism (1920s  - present) with a particular focus on AFA, RA etc and including recent developments with the EDL etc.


 
Any idea when this might be coming out? Publisher? Who is "we" by the way?


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## butchersapron (Jun 30, 2011)

Not you. Odd that


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## The39thStep (Jun 30, 2011)

past caring said:


> Any idea when this might be coming out? Publisher? Who is "we" by the way?


 
Had this before, malatessta is a bit of man of mystery?

Manchester AFA ( Alliance rather than Action) seem to be trying to branding  themslevesas the legacy of ,Manchester AFA ( Action not Alliance)


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## Deareg (Jul 1, 2011)

The39thStep said:


> Had this before, malatessta is a bit of man of mystery?
> 
> Manchester AFA ( Alliance rather than Action) seem to be trying to branding  themslevesas the legacy of ,Manchester AFA ( Action not Alliance)


 
I got the impression that they were just trying to keep the fight against fascism going.


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## The39thStep (Jul 1, 2011)

Deareg said:


> I got the impression that they were just trying to keep the fight against fascism going.


 
In what way ?


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## malatesta32 (Jul 1, 2011)

past caring said:


> Any idea when this might be coming out? Publisher? Who is "we" by the way?


 
blimey, got to start writing it yet but it will be written by the malatsetas who write the articles and run the website. it will contextualise recent and contemporary MILITANT euro anti fascism and give an antifascist history of italy, germany/austria, spain, UK etc and hopefully use interviews and reports from acitivists. i mentioned before somewhere round here that posts by the likes of liam, cogg and ayatollah are extremely valuable first hand accounts which researchers can draw on. the book will be from a militant not sectarian POV - like AFA. got to do the proposal and then see who bites  really. AK, freedom etc. any ideas?


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## butchersapron (Jul 1, 2011)

milo?


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## malatesta32 (Jul 1, 2011)

The39thStep said:


> Had this before, malatessta is a bit of man of mystery?
> 
> sorry, not trying to be mysterious just careful. you know that theres more fash on here at times than us!


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## malatesta32 (Jul 1, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> milo?



yeah could do but without being snotty they aim it a bit lower than we were thinking. an analysis of the pros and cons of the KPDs militant stratgey may not be such comfy shelfmates as  hooligans 1&2 or the gangs of manchester (tho theyre both good reads!). cheers BA!


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## love detective (Jul 1, 2011)

malatesta32 said:


> AK, freedom etc. any ideas?


 
the experience of getting BTF onto the shelves with both of these outfits (AK was originally in the running to publish it)  from start to finish of the technical/production process to post publication marketing/publicity was pretty tortorous to be honest


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## ayatollah (Jul 1, 2011)

malatesta32 said:


> blimey, got to start writing it yet but it will be written by the malatsetas who write the articles and run the website. it will contextualise recent and contemporary MILITANT euro anti fascism and give an antifascist history of italy, germany/austria, spain, UK etc and hopefully use interviews and reports from acitivists. i mentioned before somewhere round here that posts by the likes of liam, cogg and ayatollah are extremely valuable first hand accounts which researchers can draw on. the book will be from a militant not sectarian POV - like AFA. got to do the proposal and then see who bites  really. AK, freedom etc. any ideas?


 
Sounds like an important piece of work - Pretty long book though by the sounds of its scope. Don't want to be too tiresome on the Amazon Kindle issue (since I haven't even got one yet), but as I said before Amazon nowadays sell more Kindle downloads than books - AND, you can self publish ANYTHING yourself directly on Kindle Self publishing -  AND keep 70% of the download price you select . OK, not many anti fascists probably have Kindles yet, but as with the music download phenomenum of the last 5 years - soon we all will. So don't let a lack of publisher stop you doing the book. I'll be glad to give you info  on 71 to 87 period.


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## malatesta32 (Jul 1, 2011)

love detective said:


> the experience of getting BTF onto the shelves with both of these outfits (AK was originally in the running to publish it)  from start to finish of the technical/production process to post publication marketing/publicity was pretty tortorous to be honest


in my experience publishers in general seem to work at a slower and more frustrating (analogue) pace than any other media - unlike journalism which is immediate. shall ponder ayatollah's kindle idea tho. however, the book as an object - they're just nice to have around (and also to send to folk at xmas). thanks ayatollah for the offer of info. i am hoping to get more 'on the spot' reports from the folk who were there (easily done via email and by getting permission to use stuff like that from this forum) and situate UK MILITANT antifascism into a european wide context. what made BtF such a good read is that it is funny and very entertaining as well as being essential people's history. one of the things red action should be noted for is the style of their reports - 'the full and frank discussion' and 'vicious but fair'  etc! spot on.


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## Deareg (Jul 1, 2011)

The39thStep said:


> In what way ?


 
In what way did I get the impression? Or in what way are they trying to keep the fight going?


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## The39thStep (Jul 2, 2011)

Deareg said:


> In what way did I get the impression? Or in what way are they trying to keep the fight going?


 
The latter really but I suppose the two are inter related.


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## Deareg (Jul 2, 2011)

The39thStep said:


> The latter really but I suppose the two are inter related.



Keeping the fight going along the lines of AFA of the past, I get the impression mostly physically at the moment but they are in the process of putting on concerts and trying to make contact with activists from back then back to draw on their experience, I don't know any of them personally but from what little I do know I am greatly encouraged that there are still people who are prepared to carry on the fight both physically and ideologically and still prepared to put their liberty and well being at risk to do so.


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## Inigo Montoya (Jul 3, 2011)

Deareg said:


> Keeping the fight going along the lines of AFA of the past, I get the impression mostly physically at the moment but they are in the process of putting on concerts and trying to make contact with activists from back then back to draw on their experience, I don't know any of them personally but from what little I do know I am greatly encouraged that there are still people who are prepared to carry on the fight both physically and ideologically and still prepared to put their liberty and well being at risk to do so.



I'd agree with this 100%. As someone involved in stuff in Dublin for the last five years but who is based in Manchester for the summer, I've been really impressed by the MAFA crew. I traveled with them down to Leeds the weekend before last and Liverpool last weekend for anti-fascist benefit gigs. Though I think they've only been around for less than a year, their political work, the way their (re)building up a strong anti-fascist presence/culture in the city as well as the physical side of things has been very impressive by all accounts. It should also be noted they've done their best to talk to/get direction from the last generation of Manchester anti-fascists (G.T, J. H., D.C., S.T. etc..)


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## The39thStep (Jul 4, 2011)

Deareg said:


> Keeping the fight going along the lines of AFA of the past, I get the impression mostly physically at the moment but they are in the process of putting on concerts and trying to make contact with activists from back then back to draw on their experience, I don't know any of them personally but from what little I do know I am greatly encouraged that there are still people who are prepared to carry on the fight both physically and ideologically and still prepared to put their liberty and well being at risk to do so.


 
Fight who physically and put their liberty at risk against who? The main far right party doesn't do marches,  but pehaps Manchester AFA are trying to find the right sort of fascist with the right sort of tactics so that they can  carry out their  1980s AFA re-enactment society. These sort of tactics are irrelevant for anti fascism in the 21st century 

'The lines of AFA' were defined by fascists who wanted to march and grow once they were stopped 'the lines of AFA' wer about building a pro working class alternative to the three main parties and the BNP . 

Very sad to see the Antifa members get jailed but they were after the wrong end of the wrong pantomine horse


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## ayatollah (Jul 4, 2011)

The39thStep said:


> Fight who physically and put their liberty at risk against who? The main far right party doesn't do marches,  but pehaps Manchester AFA are trying to find the right sort of fascist with the right sort of tactics so that they can  carry out their  1980s AFA re-enactment society. These sort of tactics are irrelevant for anti fascism in the 21st century
> 
> This seems rather unkind to people who are attempting to counter a renewed "street presence" by EDL neo fascists ( or maybe we can call the EDL types "proto Brownshirts "- which a quite interesting SWP article - of all things- I thought recently quite perceptively  suggested) . From reports I've seen on about recent goings on in Leeds etc, it does appear that some elements of the Far Right are keen to start breaking up Left meetings and posture threateningly on the streets again - in which case, *as part of a much broader political riposte of course *, the Left does have to organise again sensibly to defend itself.
> 
> ...


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## The39thStep (Jul 4, 2011)

ayatollah;11905550][QUOTE=The39thStep said:


> Fight who physically and put their liberty at risk against who? The main far right party doesn't do marches,  but pehaps Manchester AFA are trying to find the right sort of fascist with the right sort of tactics so that they can  carry out their  1980s AFA re-enactment society. These sort of tactics are irrelevant for anti fascism in the 21st century
> 
> This seems rather unkind to people who are attempting to counter a renewed "street presence" by EDL neo fascists ( or maybe we can call the EDL types "proto Brownshirts "- which a quite interesting SWP article - of all things- I thought recently quite perceptively  suggested) . From reports I've seen on about recent goings on in Leeds etc, it does appear that some elements of the Far Right are keen to start breaking up Left meetings and posture threateningly on the streets again - in which case, *as part of a much broader political riposte of course *, the Left does have to organise again sensibly to defend itself.
> 
> ...


 
There isn't a renewed 'street presence' in Manchester .
And if there was then wouldn't we need a both a twin strategy of physical opposition and building a political alternative to the main stream parties and the the far right?

What did you think of the Filling the Vacuum conclusion that came out of the original AFA?


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## ayatollah (Jul 4, 2011)

The39thStep;11906078][QUOTE=ayatollah said:


> There isn't a renewed 'street presence' in Manchester .
> And if there was then wouldn't we need a both a twin strategy of physical opposition and building a political alternative to the main stream parties and the the far right?
> 
> What did you think of the Filling the Vacuum conclusion that came out of the original AFA?


 
Need for a twin track strategy - yes indeed. I think that when Filling the Vacuum was written it reflected completely correctly the political reality- and still NOW, today, it is generally  correct. 

BUT, political events don't stand still - since Filling the Vacuum there has been an end of the global boom bubble in which the BNP appeared to thrive as a non-Nazi, but instead  populist "Poujadist" party of the extreme Right - feeding on anti immigrant, and incoming migrant worker,  prejudice, and a range of other UKIP type "bigot and nationalism" issues, but this in a situation where most people were relatively prosperous, feeding off the property-led economic bubble. 

Today we are in the early stages of systemic world economic crisis, in which British working class living standards are going to be hammered . We are therefore in a different era - and the fascists will come back on the streets again along with generalised unrest - the confused "Brownshirt...esque right radicals" of the EDL are just a harbinger of this change. 

So I wouldn't assume violent actions by fascist groups or proto fascist groups won't eventually appear in Manchester again as the economic crisis enfolds. However this in no way contradicts the Filling the Vacuum strategy of IWCA-type initiatives in the White Working Class - makes it even more important in fact as you quite rightly say.   We just mustn't assume that the days of direct action anti fascism are gone for good. I think we could actually be in danger of being in agreement here, the 39th Step. I just think you have been a bit hard on the MAFA lads.


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## Red Storm (Jul 4, 2011)

Sorry I've not replied sooner. 

http://myworld.ebay.co.uk/reiverclassics     --- link to the eBay shop the CD was bought from.


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## past caring (Jul 7, 2011)

*Reviewing the reviews.....*

Thought it might be interesting for the debate to take a look at some of the reviews (review the review, if you like). Thought I’d start with malatesta’s review – partly because it concludes with;



> Anarchists should read it with the expectancy that it is biased towards Red Action and realise the need for an anarchist version of events that, in particular, put more focus on AFA in the North and Scotland, anarchist versions that either contradict, compliment or rectify the version put forward by Beating The Fascists.



and partly because on this thread malatesta has confessed that he’s in the process of producing just such a corrective/setting the record straight book himself.

The review is, overall, complimentary and suggests Beating the Fascists to be a “must read”, despite malatesta’s reservations. So far, so good – but what of the actual reservations? It's worth focusing on these because they, presumably, provide the motivation for his feeling another book is required;

It’s London-centric

We’re told that the book concentrates on London to the exclusion of events in the North and Scotland and while there may be some truth in this (only some, because Manchester is covered in some detail and at some length) it doesn’t really consider the major reason for this – that the BNP’s main players and major political efforts were concentrated in London from around 1990 on.

It's a Red Action rather than anarchist version of events/the anarchist contribution is downplayed

Difficult to know what this means, exactly, as the point isn’t elaborated. Are events wrongly reported? If so, which ones? Is it a case of significant actions involving the Northern Network being omitted? If so, which ones? Was there a different anarchist political perspective about the role and purpose of AFA that is misrepresented? Groups and individual signed up to the founding statement, of course, but I’m unaware of any significant change in political tack until the Filling the Vacuum document – it’s true that this was drafted and proposed by London AFA, but it was only adopted nationally after going through the democratic structures for approval. Was FTV wrong? If so, how?

As an aside, it should be said that there’s a whole load of stuff (events and anecdotes) from London - where RA was stronger - that could have gone in the book – but only things that might have given flavour/added detail. And I’m not sure what would have been gained by their inclusion, given that other stuff that made it would have had to go in order to make room…..

the Tilzey/Hann stuff

Not entirely clear what malatesta’s actually saying here;



> The book puts forward Red Action’s case against Steve Tilzey and Dave Hann and does not miss an opportunity to mention Hann’s ‘legal troubles’ a couple of times. Hann does not mention the case in his No Retreat book (which should be read in the same way as this – with amused scepticism) so it is difficult to cross reference and come to our own conclusions. The score settling about the No Retreat book and Steve Tilzey’s relationship with Searchlight does leave a slightly sour taste.



Is the sour taste left because of Tilzey’s relationship with Searchlight (i.e. “how could he do that to us?”) or by Beating the Fascists exposing that relationship? If the latter, what precisely is the objection? – is the case not proved (Tilzey actually admits the relationship) or does Malatesta believe it unimportant – i.e. it is/was fine to work with Searchlight in the way that Tilzey did?

My understanding is that the relationship between Tilzey and Searchlight was responsible (on more than one occasion) for Northern Network AFA mobilisations not being as successful as hoped for. Would seem a bit odd to be carping about NN not being given due prominence in the book whilst at the same time complaining that the book discusses one of the reasons why NN may not have reached its potential.

As for Hann – it’s been done to death, suffice to say that had he kept quiet and not written a book which attempted to paint the contribution of AFA and his erstwhile comrades out of the picture, the most anyone might have had to complain about was the omission of his positive contributions.

Overall, we’re left with the impression that though worthwhile, Beating the Fascists fails to deliver – but then we’re left to puzzle about the specifics. If another book is needed, what is it going to contain of significance that’s missing from BTF?


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## Casually Red (Jul 7, 2011)

malatesta32 said:


> blimey, got to start writing it yet but it will be written by the malatsetas who write the articles and run the website. it will contextualise recent and contemporary MILITANT euro anti fascism and give an antifascist history of italy, germany/austria, spain, UK etc and hopefully use interviews and reports from acitivists. i mentioned before somewhere round here that posts by the likes of liam, cogg and ayatollah are extremely valuable first hand accounts which researchers can draw on. the book will be from a militant not sectarian POV - like AFA. got to do the proposal and then see who bites  really. AK, freedom etc. any ideas?


 

if its any use ive a few german mates who were active in anti fascist activity and defence work going way back , before and after the fall of the wall . Still at it too some of them . Theyve a few good stories  . Liamo's met them a few times .


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## malatesta32 (Jul 8, 2011)

PC, thanks for taking the time to review the reviews. You say: ‘Overall, we’re left with the impression that though worthwhile, Beating the Fascists fails to deliver – but then we’re left to puzzle about the specifics. If another book is needed, what is it going to contain of significance that’s missing from BTF?’ 
The original review of BtF was written the day after i got the book – i read the thing in 2 goes, finished it and wrote the review. Since then i have reread it about 5 times – and some particular sections i have reread even more than that – and think it is a cracking read. The review certainly does not say it fails to deliver – as the accounts are very graphic and the arguments for militant action crystal clear! If i had to write the review again – which i wont - it would be more enthusiastic as i now think it is an absolutely essential book on non-sectarian antifascism and what can be achieved as well as it being a very important piece of ‘hidden history.’ Doing preliminary research into militant antifascism in the 20th C lends weight to the importance of BtF as many voices and experiences have gone undocumented. Look at the biblio of most militant antifash publications and you will see a serious lack – joe jacobs, 43 group, some moseley stuff and thats about it! BtF goes some way to redressing that and it will be on every reccomended reading list of antifascists everywhere, ie, this is how it was done! Im not going into the whole Tilzey/Hann thing as it is the whole of the affair that leaves a sour taste. 
The ‘Malatesta’ book you refer to has only been sketched out in rough but the 1st part will hopefully look at militant antifascism, and particularly collate evidence of anarchist antifascism, in pre-1945 italy, germany/austria, france, UK, plus smaller sections on croatia, serbia, bulgaria, greece etc. The 2nd part will deal with post war UK – till 2012  antifascism again from an anarchist perspective as well as developments in europe. It will look at the decline of the BNP and the rise of the EDL and look at how militant antifascists can learn from the past in order to deal with the situation. So, it will situate contemporary, militant antifascism into an historical european context from an anarchist persepctive and hopefully draw on accounts from those who were there and still are there. Blimey, thats if it gets going. Got another book to finis before summer is over. 
If anyone has any reccomended reading to help with the above, please let us know!


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## malatesta32 (Jul 8, 2011)

Casually Red said:


> if its any use ive a few german mates who were active in anti fascist activity and defence work going way back , before and after the fall of the wall . Still at it too some of them . Theyve a few good stories  . Liamo's met them a few times .


 
CR, that wd be great if you can help out with european comrades (see above). the book is not going to get started until october at the earliest but we will no doubt be putting out appeals for - non-incriminating! - personal accounts as this is what makes BtF so readable (unlike a lot of more academic books). watch this space etc.


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## bignose1 (Jul 8, 2011)

'NN mobilisations not being as successful' Any evidence of my direct involvement in this?


past caring said:


> Thought it might be interesting for the debate to take a look at some of the reviews (review the review, if you like). Thought I’d start with malatesta’s review – partly because it concludes with;
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## bignose1 (Jul 8, 2011)

bignose1 said:


> 'NN mobilisations not being as successful' Any evidence of my direct involvement in this?



Or is this going to drag up all the usual bollox. If so just PM.


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## Joe Reilly (Jul 9, 2011)

malatesta: Im not going into the whole Tilzey/Hann thing as it is the whole of the affair that leaves a sour taste. 
[/QUOTE said:
			
		

> Fair enough. But how do you then credibly square that position with the recomendation in your review that readers should regard the No Retreat and BTF accounts with equal and "amused scepticism"? Apart from the obvious conflict between describing something as both 'sour' and 'amusing' is there some evidential basis for regarding the latter account as other than full and frank?


----------



## Joe Reilly (Jul 9, 2011)

bignose1 said:


> 'NN mobilisations not being as successful' Any evidence of my direct involvement in this?



Are you saying Searchlight did not try to sabotage/manipulate NN mobilisations or are you merely invoking the 'holiday defence'?


----------



## bignose1 (Jul 9, 2011)

My question was ' was I involved in what you allege happened' you dont know what issues I may have had at that time myself with them. Thats the problem...theres too much youve assumed I was involved in, responsible for etc etc When infact the biggest hassle was steering a middle line..which eventually I gave up on. Also your events re the Mike Nolan affair, the so called intelligence theft, and now me stitching up the NN, fuck me why do you think Im sceptical of your other allegations involving DH,PG etc . There is a context. I just wished you would have recognised the individual aspect of the situation and shown more compassion. Theres people on here who dont know me making assumptions about me who have absolutely no track record and who have trashed my contribution to anti fascism and politics generally. To you... fuck off. To my contempories circa 1980 I can have that debate. 





Joe Reilly said:


> Are you saying Searchlight did not try to sabotage/manipulate NN mobilisations or are you merely invoking the 'holiday defence'?


----------



## Demu (Jul 10, 2011)

bignose1 said:


> Also your events re the Mike Nolan affair, the so called intelligence theft, and now me stitching up the NN, fuck me why do you think Im sceptical of your other allegations involving DH,PG etc .



PG?  Who he?  Hopefully Sumud can shed some light.


----------



## malatesta32 (Jul 11, 2011)

Joe Reilly said:


> Fair enough. But how do you then credibly square that position with the recomendation in your review that readers should regard the No Retreat and BTF accounts with equal and "amused scepticism"? Apart from the obvious conflict between describing something as both 'sour' and 'amusing' is there some evidential basis for regarding the latter account as other than full and frank?


 
joe the amused scepticism refers to 2 things: 1, that the review starts off saying that there will inevitably be differences in opinions:
'Any political biography from whatever quarter is going to involve some degree of score settling and any one version of events is inevitably disputed' - so the review warned that there will be different interpretations. the 'amused' part is that both No Retreat and BtF are very entertianing - i have said this about the BtF elsewhere and have long been a fan of Red Action/AFA's 'more colourful  decsriptions' in RA and Fighting Talk. as i said, if i had to redo the review - which i wont - i would be much more effusive as i think it is an excellent book.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Jul 11, 2011)

malatesta32 said:


> joe the amused scepticism refers to 2 things: 1, that the review starts off saying that there will inevitably be differences in opinions:
> 'Any political biography from whatever quarter is going to involve some degree of score settling and any one version of events is inevitably disputed' - so the review warned that there will be different interpretations. the 'amused' part is that both No Retreat and BtF are very entertianing - i have said this about the BtF elsewhere and have long been a fan of Red Action/AFA's 'more colourful  decsriptions' in RA and Fighting Talk. as i said, if i had to redo the review - which i wont - i would be much more effusive as i think it is an excellent book.



While it might be alright to describe No Retreat as a political biography as it is the story of two individuals, who describe, not always honestly, their personal journey in the anti-fascist movement. Beating the Fascists (BTF) is not by any shade of the imagination a political biography: it is the history of AFA from start to finish pure and simple. There may be walk on parts by individuals who played a key part in its development, but AFA the organisation remains the star throughout. 

From that perspective the job is to tell the true story of AFA first and foremost. If individual reputations (especially the carefully cultivated ones) get mangled along the way, then the book is actually doing its job. First and formemost history is about putting down the known facts. Obviously once the facts are established then they are certainly open to political interpretation, but the facts have to be established first. 

As has been shown of here and elsewhere, No Retreat was neither motivated nor restricted by any such concerns  or disciplines. It played fast and loose with the facts. Hann for instance cites events in Bury St Edmunds in the summer of 1986 and the smashing up of a NF meeting in Woolwich in early 1987 as the inspirations for his joining in - 1984! 

However the most pernicious fiction was his assertion that it was not the BNP, but AFA, who threw in the towel in 1994. In short, it was according to Hann, AFA and not the BNP, that blinked. 

For the best part of twenty years the entire anti-fascist movement has been operating on the principle that a) BNP never abandoned the streets b) it did do so, but only to regroup and that march and grow will be back in vogue _any day now_, and finally c) magic up a suitable replacement, such as the EDL, who tick all the right boxes in meeting the requirments of any anti-fascist movement, who would prefer not to get its hands dirty by dealing directly with working class communities, in the process of creating a political alternative to the self same BNP on the ground.   

As you will no doubt be aware that is the sober political lesson in BTF. The siren call of No Retreat says the exact opposite; describing any such iniatives as "betrayal" motivated by "cowardice" which by coincidence or otherwise leads rather neatly to Hope not Hate, UAF and de facto support for the political status quo.

To sum up: BTF is a serious attempt at casting a light on a neglected area of political history. The other, (and in some eyes, rival) is in significant parts, a fiction. 

In the meantime, with, for the first time since the Second World War, far-right parties topping opinion polls in France, Austria, and Finland, it would to my mind be doing the anti-fascist movement here and internationally a serious disservice to continue to equate the two.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 11, 2011)

Just finished reading Goodwins New British Fascism and despite what the 'anti fascist movement'desires there is no evidence in interviews with BNP members or within the evidence presented that a return to the streets is on the cards what so ever.What stands out in the book is the  overwhelming w/class composition of the BNP and its success in what were traditional working class areas  .Worth reading even if its only for the simple but effective process map that the BNP did for succesful community politics and the complete absence of any comment by Goodwin on state disruption of the BNP.


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## malatesta32 (Jul 11, 2011)

joe, thanks for the considered reponse. i must say i would not equate the 2 books but only spoke of them as they are 2 of the very few books dealing with that time period. yr right, NR is a personal account, BtF is about AFA. you wrote: 
'BTF is a serious attempt at casting a light on a neglected area of political history.' agreed. dunno if you have seen any of our posts on a 'malatesta'  book on european militant antifascism here but hopefully this can contribute to the 'neglected area' as well. any ideas? 
by the way, just seen this over on revleft. rather amusing! 
http://www.splcenter.org/blog/2011/07/08/notice-to-neo-nazi-thugs-best-to-read-before-attacking/


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Jul 11, 2011)

past caring said:


> what is it going to contain of significance that’s missing from BTF?


colour-by-number pictures mebbe?


----------



## malatesta32 (Jul 12, 2011)

following the media 'success' of the EDL demos - and the not unimportant matter of all that lovely money the EDL leadership have creamed from their members - Nick Griffin did recently threaten a return to the streets for the BNP and more 'militant' behaviour. this sounded like desperation rather than anything else, trying to capitalise on the EDL popularity. the EDL get 500-1000 lads on the streets, something griffin can only dream about. nothing yet though!


----------



## Demu (Jul 13, 2011)

malatesta32 said:


> following the media 'success' of the EDL demos - and the not unimportant matter of all that lovely money the EDL leadership have creamed from their members - Nick Griffin did recently threaten a return to the streets for the BNP and more 'militant' behaviour. this sounded like desperation rather than anything else, trying to capitalise on the EDL popularity. the EDL get 500-1000 lads on the streets, something griffin can only dream about. nothing yet though!


 
You really think Nick Griffin would swap places with the EDL?


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 13, 2011)

Griffin didnt threaten a return to the streets.What he did do was to say that the BNP should be at the forefront of anti muslim activity ie opposition to mosque building,grooming and any anti soldier protests.
The whole age range of the BNP,its investment in election software and its cadre training belies any thought that it could  be returning to any 'march and grow' strategy.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Jul 13, 2011)

malatesta32 said:


> the EDL get 500-1000 lads on the streets...



And do what?


----------



## Joe Reilly (Jul 13, 2011)

bignose1 said:


> Thats the problem...theres too much youve assumed I was involved in, responsible for etc etc When infact the biggest hassle was steering a middle line...



Steering "a middle line" between anti-fascism and what exactly?


----------



## bignose1 (Jul 15, 2011)

A middle line between not pissing off Searchlight and not fucking off AFA/RA.( for the less pedantic )



Joe Reilly said:


> Steering "a middle line" between anti-fascism and what exactly?


----------



## malatesta32 (Jul 15, 2011)

Demu said:


> You really think Nick Griffin would swap places with the EDL?


 
Demu, i think Griffin was thinking of the numbers of supporters the EDL can gather in terms of his own rapidly fading credibility - his meetings are attended in increasingly smaller numbers. and not to mention all that lovely lolly that the EDL have creamed off the membership: the merchandise tat - which all 'nationalist' websites seem to flog - as well as the money raised for snowy and richard price defence funds which has yet been unaccounted for!


----------



## malatesta32 (Jul 15, 2011)

Joe Reilly said:


> And do what?


yeah exactly! get pissed up and surrounded by plod then bussed out again? this strategy has achieved few results and is only really a show of strength. however, so many on the forums and facebook have realised they have achieved nothing, that numbers are dwindling, and many are unhappy with the 'southern' leadership. shd continue this on edl watch really!


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## malatesta32 (Jul 22, 2011)

sent you a PM mate!


----------



## Porkmeister (Jul 24, 2011)

bignose1 said:


> 'NN mobilisations not being as successful' Any evidence of my direct involvement in this?


 
Bignose1, Wasn't it you who told Northern Network about a BNP event in Rochdale, which you then told us was cancelled leading to NN AFA demobilisation. Manchester AFA who had went to Rochdale to leaflet part of the town then ended up walking into 100 BNP at the town hall attending the event which searchlight said was cancelled. You were expelled from Manchester AFA over this? 

Dave outlines the story in No Retreat ,but not sure if this is fully covered in BTF but proves the point that Past Caring makes.


----------



## bignose1 (Jul 24, 2011)

Absolute bollox. Hang on..Im defending myself to you...wtf..I got expelled from AFA for what...do you mean that kangaroo court at the poly.  Hang on thought I got expelled for stealing intelligence...no wasnt it Mike Nolan..oh by the way add deliberately leading comrades into a trap. GFY.
ps wernt u doing a hell of a lot of pot around that time and fucked off to India a paranoid cnut


Porkmeister said:


> Bignose1, Wasn't it you who told Northern Network about a BNP event in Rochdale, which you then told us was cancelled leading to NN AFA demobilisation. Manchester AFA who had went to Rochdale to leaflet part of the town then ended up walking into 100 BNP at the town hall attending the event which searchlight said was cancelled. You were expelled from Manchester AFA over this?
> 
> Dave outlines the story in No Retreat ,but not sure if this is fully covered in BTF but proves the point that Past Caring makes.


----------



## Demu (Jul 25, 2011)

malatesta32 said:


> yeah exactly! get pissed up and surrounded by plod then bussed out again? this strategy has achieved few results and is only really a show of strength. however, so many on the forums and facebook have realised they have achieved nothing, that numbers are dwindling, and many are unhappy with the 'southern' leadership. shd continue this on edl watch really!


 
Clear evidence of the rise of the EDL


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## Joe Reilly (Jul 26, 2011)

bignose1 said:


> Absolute bollox. Hang on..Im defending myself to you...wtf..I got expelled from AFA for what...do you mean that kangaroo court at the poly.  Hang on thought I got expelled for stealing intelligence...no wasnt it Mike Nolan..oh by the way add deliberately leading comrades into a trap. GFY.
> ps wernt u doing a hell of a lot of pot around that time and fucked off to India a paranoid cnut



What with Hann's nocturnal activities and all the compromising that inevitably followed and you and Leeds 'steering a middle course' between anti-fascism and Searchlight not to suspect something was rottenly askew with the whole set up would have been deeply remiss surely


----------



## Joe Reilly (Jul 26, 2011)

The39thStep said:


> Just finished reading Goodwins New British Fascism and despite what the 'anti fascist movement'desires there is no evidence in interviews with BNP members or within the evidence presented that a return to the streets is on the cards what so ever.What stands out in the book is the  overwhelming w/class composition of the BNP and its success in what were traditional working class areas  .Worth reading even if its only for the simple but effective process map that the BNP did for succesful community politics and the complete absence of any comment by Goodwin on state disruption of the BNP.



Interesting to note that in all the hand-wringing about who was responsible for Brievik's 'distorted view' it took the EDL's 'Tommy Robinson' to mention that Norway's Progress Party, with not disimilar views on Islam and immigration to the BNP, commands support from around 1 in 4 Norwegians and may be in governmemt by 2013. In numerous interviews Goodwin though he alluded to Scandanavia as a whole having 'problems', neglected to mention what would appear to be a fairly salient background fact. 
This one-eyed approach from liberals is one of the main theme in the prologue to _Beating the Fascists
_ which one of the reviews tellingly dismissed as 'skip-worthy'. If so it might be a good idea to dig it out again.


----------



## bignose1 (Jul 26, 2011)

What are you rambling on about....although I dont mind you having a go albeit with the stuck record shite again, my issue was with the pot head (and I tell you he was totally fucked up) who suddenly appears after years in the wilderness. Its weird isnt it that although I was expelled/suspended/quartered  there were enough people who realised a show trial when it hit them on the head(infact GM and C moved into mine when they got made homeless around that time thats the cnut I was.) Earn your right first.



Joe Reilly said:


> What with Hann's nocturnal activities and all the compromising that inevitably followed and you and Leeds 'steering a middle course' between anti-fascism and Searchlight not to suspect something was rottenly askew with the whole set up would have been deeply remiss surely


----------



## Joe Reilly (Jul 27, 2011)

bignose1 said:


> What are you rambling on about....although I dont mind you having a go albeit with the stuck record shite again, my issue was with the pot head (and I tell you he was totally fucked up) who suddenly appears after years in the wilderness. Its weird isnt it that although I was expelled/suspended/quartered  there were enough people who realised a show trial when it hit them on the head(infact GM and C moved into mine when they got made homeless around that time thats the cnut I was.) Earn your right first.



Instead of coming on her spitting feathers and continually debasing discussion by personalising it, why not simply come clean about why Searchlight did not want AFA in Rochdale on the day in question? 


If afterall you left Searchlight in 1994, (tired of all the double-dealing and back-stabbing your involvement with them entailed) why should explaining the thinking behind that particular strategem be a problem? 






Afterall its not the only time


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## Red About Town (Jul 27, 2011)

Red About Town said:


> The history of Anti Fascist Action will be discussed at this year's Anti Racist World Cup in Belfast.


 
Did anyone from here speak at or attend this event?

How did it go?


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## love detective (Jul 27, 2011)

someone did yes - surreally pursued across the irish sea by an unexpected visitor


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## Fedayn (Jul 27, 2011)

love detective said:


> someone did yes - surreally pursued across the irish sea by an unexpected visitor


 
You can't leave it like that?!


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## MellySingsDoom (Jul 27, 2011)

love detective said:


> someone did yes - surreally pursued across the irish sea by an unexpected visitor


 
Has the Binman started gun-running again?!?


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## cogg (Jul 27, 2011)

love detective said:


> someone did yes - surreally pursued across the irish sea by an unexpected visitor


A carter-fuck lawyer?


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## The39thStep (Jul 28, 2011)

MellySingsDoom said:


> Has the Binman started gun-running again?!?


 
You mean TB? Doubt it he was busy getting married earlier this year.


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## malatesta32 (Jul 28, 2011)

love detective said:


> someone did yes - surreally pursued across the irish sea by an unexpected visitor


 
LD any chance of a cautious review of events? it wd be good to hear about it.


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## MellySingsDoom (Jul 28, 2011)

The39thStep said:


> You mean TB? Doubt it he was busy getting married earlier this year.


 
Thanks for that.   The last I heard of TB, he was leading the National Front (Tom Holmes faction) troops on a march round the outskirts of Great Yarmouth town centre several years ago....wonder what happened to his erstwhile comrade EW?


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## audiotech (Jul 28, 2011)

Fashion victim?


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## Demu (Jul 28, 2011)

cogg said:


> A carter-fuck lawyer?



Extremely unlikely. They have been given full disclosure regarding the Hann mugging incident and Hann's fabricated CV, and I assume they have advised their client accordingly.


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## Demu (Jul 28, 2011)

malatesta32 said:


> LD any chance of a cautious review of events? it wd be good to hear about it.



Deareg and Sumud might be able to help out on this one.


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## Deareg (Jul 28, 2011)

Demu said:


> Deareg and Sumud might be able to help out on this one.


 
Dave's partner Louise was in Belfast for the anti racist world cup, she went along to Gary's book launch and I believe afterwards asked him if he had anything to say to her. Really exciting stuff heh?

I am surprised that one of you lot hasn't started a thread about it. 

Hope this makes your day a bit brighter.


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## bignose1 (Jul 28, 2011)

Spitting feathers and debasing discussion by personalising it....it gets even more ridiculous...I think thats the worst case of kettle calling the blah blah blah Ive ever heard..you really do raise the bar in the incredulity stakes. And once more my issue was with porky





Joe Reilly said:


> Instead of coming on her spitting feathers and continually debasing discussion by personalising it, why not simply come clean about why Searchlight did not want AFA in Rochdale on the day in question?
> 
> 
> If afterall you left Searchlight in 1994, (tired of all the double-dealing and back-stabbing your involvement with them entailed) why should explaining the thinking behind that particular strategem be a problem?
> ...


----------



## Red Storm (Jul 28, 2011)

This thread is becoming embarrassing...


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## The39thStep (Jul 29, 2011)

MellySingsDoom said:


> Thanks for that.   The last I heard of TB, he was leading the National Front (Tom Holmes faction) troops on a march round the outskirts of Great Yarmouth town centre several years ago....wonder what happened to his erstwhile comrade EW?


 
TB is in Tameside and has been for a few years. EW? Mathew Collins will know.


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## Deareg (Jul 29, 2011)

Why are posters using initials when talking about fascists?


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## The39thStep (Jul 29, 2011)

Deareg said:


> Why are posters using initials when talking about fascists?


 
Can't be arsed to type


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## MellySingsDoom (Jul 30, 2011)

The39thStep - Had no idea about this, but according to this Graun link, Matthew Collins has a new book out...


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## The39thStep (Jul 30, 2011)

MellySingsDoom said:


> The39thStep - Had no idea about this, but according to this Graun link, Matthew Collins has a new book out...


 
Yes , spoke to an infrequent poster on here about it last month. We think that this book was planned for publication last year or even earlier. He  actually did a round of inyterviews in about 2004 to the national press and did a TV programme, and has been doing Searchlight /Hope Not hate talks for years about his past and the current scene. It has been suggested  that it was held up initially  due to some unanswered questions about the authors speculated role with the security services  then later because of the publication of Beating the Fascists .

Be interesting if there is any mention in his book of Larry O'Hara.

His seminars/talks are very informative but pro Searchlight/Hope Not Hate.


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## audiotech (Jul 30, 2011)

The39thStep said:


> His seminars/talks are very informative but pro Searchlight/Hope Not Hate.



Well shiver me timbers, someone who writes and works for Searchlight/Hope Not Hate is pro Searchlight/Hope Not Hate. Who'd have thunked it.


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## Casually Red (Jul 30, 2011)

malatesta32 said:


> CR, that wd be great if you can help out with european comrades (see above). the book is not going to get started until october at the earliest but we will no doubt be putting out appeals for - non-incriminating! - personal accounts as this is what makes BtF so readable (unlike a lot of more academic books). watch this space etc.


 
well im going over to see them in a few weeks so if anyone wants me to ask/say anything just let me know , or deal through liamo if youd prefer as none of you lot know me .


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## TopCat (Jul 30, 2011)

Red Storm said:


> This thread is becoming embarrassing...


 
Becoming clearer by the day...


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## TopCat (Jul 30, 2011)

bignose1 said:


> Spitting feathers and debasing discussion by personalising it....it gets even more ridiculous...I think thats the worst case of kettle calling the blah blah blah Ive ever heard..you really do raise the bar in the incredulity stakes. And once more my issue was with porky


 
So no answer then?


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## The39thStep (Jul 30, 2011)

audiotech said:


> Well shiver me timbers, someone who writes and works for Searchlight/Hope Not Hate is pro Searchlight/Hope Not Hate. Who'd have thunked it.


 
Ever seen him speak? If you have then you will know exactly what I am on about. But perhaps you haven't apart from YouTube.


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## audiotech (Jul 31, 2011)

The39thStep said:


> Ever seen him speak? If you have then you will know exactly what I am on about. But perhaps you haven't apart from YouTube.



Along the lines of 'I'd like to be more radical in what I say, but they won't let me' sort of way you mean?


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## The39thStep (Jul 31, 2011)

There is a complete lack of acknowldgement ( even mention) for any other organisation ie no mention of ANL mark 1 or AFA, his sidekick Paul Meszaros is the same but pushes the Labour Party  as  well.


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## Demu (Jul 31, 2011)

bignose1 said:


> 'NN mobilisations not being as successful' Any evidence of my direct involvement in this?





You asked for evidence of your direct involvement in NN mobilisations not being as successful, and Porky provided an example which led to you being branched by AFA. This was followed by the Nolan BNP debacle which saw you yet again persona non grata in Mcr AFA circles.

Following this you arranged a meet with London AFA offering information in what appeared to be an attempt to circumvent the authority of Mcr AFA. Interestingly you failed to mention your concerns about Mark and Dave’s anti social behaviour, who were, in all probability, on bail for mugging at the time of this meeting.

So why all the venom, indignation, handringing and soulsearching when someone points out your duplicitous role within Manchester AFA. I don’t have a problem with it. It happened and you were doing your job. You were following a Searchlight agenda within AFA and along with your comrades in Leeds who were carrying out what was tantamount to a wrecking operation, moreso after the retreat from the streets by the BNP into electoral politics and the fear that AFA may follow suit. 

This, unsurprisingly was occurring whilst Searchlight was positioning itself with New Labour and championiong ‘intelligence led’ anti fascism.
AFA and Searchlight were moving in opposite directions, and as you have indicated, the middle ground was disappearing fast. You made your choices, you live with them. You wrote your book, you made your money out of it. You don’t have to admit the book is a Searchlight spoiler, but I think enough has been put on this thread to indicate otherwise, leaving the credibility of one if not both of the authors somewhat tarnished.


----------



## Demu (Jul 31, 2011)

Red Storm said:


> This thread is becoming embarrassing...



For who?


----------



## manny-p (Jul 31, 2011)

bignose1 said:


> Spitting feathers and debasing discussion by personalising it....it gets even more ridiculous...I think thats the worst case of kettle calling the blah blah blah Ive ever heard..you really do raise the bar in the incredulity stakes. And once more my issue was with porky


 
Read your book last month. Was a good/funny read.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Aug 1, 2011)

The39thStep said:


> It has been suggested  that it was held up initially  due to some unanswered questions about the authors speculated role with the security services  then later because of the publication of Beating the Fascists .
> 
> Be interesting if there is any mention in his book of Larry O'Hara.


 
Be interesting if there is any mention in his book of AFA.


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## The39thStep (Aug 1, 2011)

Only mentioned in passing in his talks ,as was the ANL, as an acronym. 

Have  pre ordered the book.


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## bignose1 (Aug 1, 2011)

But Porky was wrong Denis and you all jumped to conclusions. whether you like it or not I was not playing off AFA against NN/Searchlight or whoever else you care to mention. You are obviously not reading my posts closely enough. The debacle re Nolan was of your making...talking of sledgehammer to crack a nut. I found out about the South Manchester BNP organiser, there was no saving him for myself and Searchlight. I tried to save the guys family from the hassle I knew he would get from the OTT stuff because his lads were mates of my lad and CK's etc his missus was a friend of L's and Ck's who was horrified to find out. It was about saving souls and giving someone the benefit of the doubt not terrifying them. Your paranoia that you were being stitched up by yet another Searchlight conspiracy only adds to my general suspision that you are incapable of seeing the truth. Unless it suits. Re Dave and mark. I never really socialised with either of them...I didnt drink at the time and saw them at football etc. You know better than me what was going on obviously as subsequently I was informed you were involved in some sort of cover up by other people but at the time wasnt aware of the details. I think the venom and handwringing et all is all down to you. Porky points out my duplicity..hes wrong he was far too unreliable at that time ..he was smoking a lot of pot and to be honest I was very concerned about him. I followed no agenda..if others did then I was obviously not trusted to follow it with them or Im too thick. You were wrong when you claimed I was the WIA mole at the meeting.  You should know about agndas.. thats a bit rich Denis seeing that youve been a RA mouthpiece for 30 yrs. I mad e choices as I saw fit away from all the sectarian nonsense and back biting. Thank fuck. As for the money I made. Dont make me laugh. I dont have to admit it isnt a Searchlight spoiler but you made out it was .. that lie Im afraid makes you even more ridiculous. Your reading into it what fits your agenda. Denis your theory is doomed as long as you persist with this obsessive conspiracy shite. Go away please ffs and play with your crew.





Demu said:


> You asked for evidence of your direct involvement in NN mobilisations not being as successful, and Porky provided an example which led to you being branched by AFA. This was followed by the Nolan BNP debacle which saw you yet again persona non grata in Mcr AFA circles.
> 
> Following this you arranged a meet with London AFA offering information in what appeared to be an attempt to circumvent the authority of Mcr AFA. Interestingly you failed to mention your concerns about Mark and Dave’s anti social behaviour, who were, in all probability, on bail for mugging at the time of this meeting.
> 
> ...


----------



## TopCat (Aug 1, 2011)

Is this deliberately designed to confuse? 

Despite this, it's getting clearer. 

Nice to see Searchlight/state shit from two decades start to reach a conclusion of sorts.


----------



## TopCat (Aug 1, 2011)

dp


----------



## Joe Reilly (Aug 2, 2011)

TopCat said:


> Is this deliberately designed to confuse?



It is, I think, in legal circles sometimes referred to as the 'fire-hose defence': blame is sprayed in all directions - bar one.


----------



## ayatollah (Aug 4, 2011)

An interesting article by a ( bourgeois liberal) economist, Richard Murphy, in the Guardian today on the looming danger of a second, deeper,  stage of the ongoing world financial  crisis, as major economies in the Eurozone approach debt default – and the central  destabilizing role played by what he calls  the "feral" economy, but we would simply call  "finance capital", in this deepening downward spiral of instability:

"_Stock markets took fright on Wednesday as fears grew over the health of the global economy and the ongoing European debt crisis.
There was heavy selling in London when trading began, sending the blue-chip FTSE 100 index falling by 91 points, or 1.6%, to 5626. There were also heavy losses across Europe, The French CAC and German DAX indices were down 1.6% and 1.1% respectively.
The European markets took their cue from Tuesday's 2.2% fall in the US Dow Jones index. Overnight, the Japanese Nikkei fell 2.1%, its biggest daily loss since the rout that followed Japan's March earthquake
And the effective interest rates Italy and Spain are paying have gone over 6% when Germany is paying 2.4%, while the US is being marked for credit downgrade by all major ratings agencies. Gold has hit a record price. Perversely, the cost of UK debt has fallen to new lows: we're now a safe haven. Anyone who thinks we are out of the crisis has to be seriously misguided. "

_As the world spirals into possibly  a new Great Depression  it is interesting to see what has happened to the previously rampant BNP with its  highly successful "populist Poujadist" electoral strategy, ie providing a protest vehicle for the  "politics of bigotry and disgruntlement at perceived exclusion from the then fruits of the pre 2008 economic boom"  of sections of the white working class . One might have supposed that with inter community tensions increased by the impact of unemployment and the cuts it would be doing very well, BUT , it has of course in fact lost most of its councillors and is  falling apart from fraticidal infighting. 

But why ? 
 a) like the revolutionary Left, fascists are innately factional, so any growth setback sets the "racial comrades" at each others throats. 
And , more importantly, 
b)  just as Militant found in the 80's in Liverpool, it is impossible to actually DELIVER on the radical  promises made to supporters and voters for radical movements of  both Far Right and Far  Left – *short of a really profound social crisis in which there is a major shift in established voting patterns and class forces.* TODAY the white working class in Stoke, Barking etc, want solutions NOW to growing mass unemployment and welfare cuts - and the BNP simply can't deliver, and certainly can't attack/deport/rob  the local ethnic  minority communities  which much of their voting base would like to blame, and make suffer,  for the crisis.

*Unfortunately for the BNP we aren't at a point where there is a major realignment of class forces in the UK, the economic crisis is still at an early stage,   and so no section of the capitalist class has any motivation to back a fascist movement – as there is no mass Left movement to crush.*

I think this will require a readjustment/update  of some of the conclusions of "Filling the vacuum" and  BTF – not the central point that the Left needs to build a viable alternative to Labour and the BNP in white working class communities (and others of course) – but a recognition that the Far Right will from now on as the crisis bites,  be in profound crisis and reassessment and restructuring mode as they try to respond to the crisis too – and as well as regroupment organisationally, regardless of the current apparent signs of breakup in EDL ranks, I think there will soon be much  more of the chaotic and shambolic EDL – type ("Brownshirt") provocations on the streets .

These provocations are likely to be both linked to Far Right political party building - along the lines of the earlier "march and build " strategies , a la 1970's NF, AND  many more semi spontaneous, non formal political party organised Far Right Blogosphere generated "Flashmob"  provocative "events" .   This likely return to street action will be caused by a need by the Far Right to respond to  the economic hammering their actual and potential white working class base will be increasingly suffering,  giving the appearance of "action"  to supporters , but really reflecting the Far Right's impotence in the face of the economic attacks on the white working class, (just as with the Left's similar current impotence of course ) and their subsequent failure to maintain the BNP's electoral momentum from the pre 2008 economic crisis boom period into the current period of economic crisis.

It should also be stated that as we move from a long period of economic boom to a long period of serious attacks on all aspects of working class (and middle class) living standards , it is the LEFT, not the fascists, who should be best placed, through concerted militant community action against the cuts locally ,  and militant trades union action against  unemployment, closures and  wage reductions etc , to build up fighting political organisations - This is regardless of the current woeful weakness of the Left and militant trades unionism --IF we can all work together , minimize sectarian infighting, and sieze the opportunity yet another capitalist crisis presents to offer a real alternative .


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## josef1878 (Aug 5, 2011)

ayatollah said:


> An interesting article by a ( bourgeois liberal) economist, Richard Murphy, in the Guardian today on the looming danger of a second, deeper,  stage of the ongoing world financial  crisis, as major economies in the Eurozone approach debt default – and the central  destabilizing role played by what he calls  the "feral" economy, but we would simply call  "finance capital", in this deepening downward spiral of instability:
> 
> "_Stock markets took fright on Wednesday as fears grew over the health of the global economy and the ongoing European debt crisis.
> There was heavy selling in London when trading began, sending the blue-chip FTSE 100 index falling by 91 points, or 1.6%, to 5626. There were also heavy losses across Europe, The French CAC and German DAX indices were down 1.6% and 1.1% respectively.
> ...



Spot on until the bit about minimize sectarian infighting. It will never happen. It will take more meetings than any normal person could bear. Completely out of touch


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## ayatollah (Aug 5, 2011)

josef1878 said:


> Spot on until the bit about minimize sectarian infighting. It will never happen. It will take more meetings than any normal person could bear. Completely out of touch


 
It's true the Left will never abandon sectarian infighting - "Life of Brian" IS really a lightly disguised drama doc on the Left after all !. However there has always been the possibility, and at times (AFA for instance, and certainly the MK I 1970's Anti Nazi League too) the real option and very occasional history of *unity in **ACTION*  - without the endless meetings on the "correct line" or the correct revolutionary  "programme". 

If the Left and Labour Movement can't find a degree of unity in action over the next few years of ever mounting attacks by the ruling class - we've all had it - so hopefully your gloom is misplaced josef1878. Out of touch I am certainly, but manically depressedly without hope - no.


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## The39thStep (Aug 7, 2011)

ayatollah said:


> An interesting article by a ( bourgeois liberal) economist, Richard Murphy, in the Guardian today on the looming danger of a second, deeper, stage of the ongoing world financial crisis, as major economies in the Eurozone approach debt default – and the central destabilizing role played by what he calls the "feral" economy, but we would simply call "finance capital", in this deepening downward spiral of instability:
> 
> "_Stock markets took fright on Wednesday as fears grew over the health of the global economy and the ongoing European debt crisis._
> _There was heavy selling in London when trading began, sending the blue-chip FTSE 100 index falling by 91 points, or 1.6%, to 5626. There were also heavy losses across Europe, The French CAC and German DAX indices were down 1.6% and 1.1% respectively._
> ...



Spirited but flawed. Is this anything more  than a re run of wishing that the far right would be back on the streets and we could have the the spirit of the anti Thatcher period all  over again.?


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## ayatollah (Aug 7, 2011)

I think you'll find the Far Right are back on the streets The 39th Step - eg, the threatened major bust up in the East End of London on 3rd September, which is provoking a major mobilisation by the community and Left. Ignoring the massive political changes resulting from the 2008 financial crisis won't make it so.

I'm not "sentimental" about the Thatcher era - we all got a good kicking as a class. We are up for an even worse kicking over the next 10 years if the bosses can make us all pay for their crisis. Spokesmen for the finance capital sector are blatantly nowadays saying we (ie, the working and middle classes) will need to take a 25% cut in our overall living standards - ie, wages, benefits, social services - if their system is to recover its "competitiveness". This will make the struggles of the Thatcher era seem like a playground scuffle.

Ignore the coming wave of struggle if you can. I'm more afraid than sentimental.


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## The39thStep (Aug 7, 2011)

ayatollah said:


> I think you'll find the Far Right are back on the streets The 39th Step - eg, the threatened major bust up in the East End of London on 3rd September, which is provoking a major mobilisation by the community and Left. Ignoring the massive political changes resulting from the 2008 financial crisis won't make it so.
> 
> I'm not "sentimental" about the Thatcher era - we all got a good kicking as a class. We are up for an even worse kicking over the next 10 years if the bosses can make us all pay for their crisis. Spokesmen for the finance capital sector are blatantly nowadays saying we (ie, the working and middle classes) will need to take a 25% cut in our overall living standards - ie, wages, benefits, social services - if their system is to recover its "competitiveness". This will make the struggles of the Thatcher era seem like a playground scuffle.
> 
> Ignore the coming wave of struggle if you can. I'm more afraid than sentimental.



No denying the recession but your preoccupation with waiting/hoping that the far right are returning to the street completely obscures any political alternative to them aside from 'no platform' type stuff.


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## ayatollah (Aug 8, 2011)

Why does recognising that the Far Right are mobilizing on the streets again, (at the moment via the confused EDL provocative parades), preclude also recognising a crying need for the Left to organise at community level and in trades union struggle to oppose the all too many emerging manifestations of the cuts ?

You seem determined to create a straw man here, misrepresenting my, and others arguments, indeed anyone who simply recognises the quite obvious fact of the renewal of street action by the Far Right. And the recent collapse of the electroral stategy of the BNP of course . Mafa were also described as "1980's AFA wannabees" too I recall.

Whilst you prefer to ignore the reemergeance of Far Right street action, even the latest issue of Socialist Worker is calling for widespread mobilisation against the proposed EDL provocation in the East End (which I assume will now be banned in the context of the London riots). Next the SWP will be resurrecting ANL Mk VIII !

I think you are "in denial" The 39th Step.


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## The39thStep (Aug 8, 2011)

A section of the Far Right as in the EDL have been mobilizing on the street for two years and by and large their earlier protests were bigger so i am not sure why their is all this shrillness is about . As much as I value Socialist Workers calls for widespread mobilisations they have been calling for widespread mobilisation against the EDL ( or indeed any one who they can identify as a suitable opportunity for ANL mark 2/UAF type activity) for years. Bit like stopped clocks.

The problem with your position and some others around anti fascism is that it too is a stopped clock. Endless debates about the need to take on the BNP physically via No Platform,endless speculation that the BNP would be back on the streets and absolutely no where when the anti fascists  had an opportunity to organise at a community level to build a pro working class alternative to not just the BNP but the three main parties.Its quite common to pay a bit of verbal lip service to building pro working class organisations in local communities these days but not so common to actually do anything about it.

When the main threat to the BNP didn't in practise fit the bill of stopped clock anti fascism there was a desperate search to find someone /anyone who did. It didn't matter if they weren't the main threat , didn't matter if they were any threat but if it fitted the identikit tactics of stopped clock anti fascism it was a convenient diversion form doing anything about the building pro working class organisations in local communities bit. The remnants of the NF , the odd B@H gig, the laughable BPP protest about rap records in Leeds and then thank heavens the EDL.

So ten years after the BNP ceased marching there is a far right grouping in the EDL who have no roots in any working class communities and who have the occasional day out where it must be said that generally the Police have ended up containing them not the anti fascist.Fine get down to confront them but where is any evidence of the supposed other half of the equation ;building a political alternative.

Or perhaps underneath all the lip service its not as exciting or even too political?


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## ayatollah (Aug 11, 2011)

Talk about deja vu ! You sound EXACTLY like the SWP full time organisers given their script in 1981 to start expelling SWP members still engaging in active anti fascist activities ( alongside a whole range of trade union and other political activity too it has to be said) after the SWP had decided that the NF was no longer a threat.

I find that sad, but all too common. It is you who is stuck in a timewarp - in the brief period of capitalist boom before the 2008 economic crisis, when amidst general prosperity, the BNP could successfully adopt to a Poujadist Right Wing electoral protest politics based really on just representing a small part of the white working class feeling threatened by the multicultural reality of modern Britain. The period very accurately covered by "Filling the Vacuum". Today, post 2008 it's a different ballgame - the BNP is collapsing - not able to deliver anything meaningful to their small electoral base to combat the rising unemployment and cuts - but the EDL type opportunist street provocations and mobilisations masquerading as "defending local white communities" are on the rise on the back of the riots of the last week .

You sneer at Socialist Worker calling for mass mobilisation against the (pre riot) planned EDL provocation in the East End. Don't you nowadays think it is the duty of socialists to stand along ethnic minorities threatenened by fascist thugs on their streets ? Leave it all to the Police to deal with ? Dearie me , That all sounds very familiar too - We used to laugh at those arguments in the old days. And quite rightly too. . I'm with the Socialist Worker mobilisation call myself - even if that is just so boringly 1970's of me .

Realistic, tactically flexible, socialists can't just "declare victory" over street fascism, when it disappears for a few years during an economic boom, and then move move on to entirely community politics, and then ignore street fascism when it reappears. We have to keep our eyes and ears and minds open to see CHANGE occurring in the political scene, and modify our political practice and tactics accordingly.

Don't worry , noone's asking you to get out there back on the streets to personally combat provocations like the (probably banned now) 3rd September EDL East End do, and I'm far to old and nackered to turn out myself now - but I still support younger socialists who are prepared to do their bit.


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## TopCat (Aug 11, 2011)

I am getting bored waiting for Bignose to come back and answer the key questions put to him. Why the delay? Is Gerry Gable writing the answer?


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## Joe Reilly (Aug 11, 2011)

ayatollah said:


> Talk about deja vu ! You sound EXACTLY like the SWP full time organisers given their script in 1981 to start expelling SWP members still engaging in active anti fascist activities ( alongside a whole range of trade union and other political activity too it has to be said) after the SWP had decided that the NF was no longer a threat.
> 
> I find that sad, but all too common. It is you who is stuck in a timewarp - in the brief period of capitalist boom before the 2008 economic crisis, when amidst general prosperity, the BNP could successfully adopt to a Poujadist Right Wing electoral protest politics based really on just representing a small part of the white working class feeling threatened by the multicultural reality of modern Britain. The period very accurately covered by "Filling the Vacuum". Today, post 2008 it's a different ballgame - the BNP is collapsing - not able to deliver anything meaningful to their small electoral base to combat the rising unemployment and cuts - but the EDL type opportunist street provocations and mobilisations masquerading as "defending local white communities" are on the rise on the back of the riots of the last week .
> 
> ...



With all due respect, there are I think think one or two generalisations that need qualifying. First off while there was the appearance of capitalist 'boom', in reality as we all now know it was credit fuelled rather than real growth. For the majority a chimera. A significant point I will return to. Meanwhile there is no evidence that the BNP is collapsing because it cannnot deliver. The _internal_ problems were evident long before the cuts (many of which are yet to be implemented, or fully felt). One of the key points in the Filling the Vacuum was the prediction that the 'BNP would control their own destiny - and that of their opponents'. Nothing has happened to change that.

Moreover the idea previously advanced that these problems are sort of inevitable once the British far-right reach a certain plateau seems rather smug and complacent. There are a host of countries where the BNP political kith and kin are regularly taking 20 per cent of the vote nationally. Are all these countries more right-wing, or traditionally more prone to violence than Britain? I don't think so. Equally how many times have the FN been written only to bounce back - they were only recently _topping_ opinion polls - because the political vacuum was not filled?

I would suggest that the BNP are lagging behind, almost uniquely in today's Europe, because the anti-fascist opposition in the shape of the ANL Mark 1 and later AFA dogged their every move for a generation. Arguably,  no other right-wing movement in Europe has ever had to live under that kind of pressure from  - the get go - and it takes its toll. Britian presntly has the appearance of being unique in Europe mainly because style of anti-fascism was unique in Europe.

Returning to a previous point, the credit crunch has not really hit yet. When it does the middle class rage, not just the rampaging lumpen we witnessed this week, will find a political home. And as former Blair adviser said when it does 'you don't want to be on the wrong side of it'. Will the centre really hold? Has government even democracy itself ever looked less potent? More than anyone it is surely the mainstream parties that are 'failing to deliver'. Who is best placed to benefit from society's decomposition? The BNP might be not currently be in the rudest of health but the far-right as a whole are at least thinking. The orthodox left have not advanced a new idea, tactic, much less stratgey in 40 years.

Finally the notion that the SWP are standing shoulder to shoulder with ethnic minorities is wrong on two counts. In my experience the SWP has never stood shoulder to shoulder with anyone with genuine intent. It is always and remains short term political self-interest. Also Muslims are hardly a traditional minority in Tower Hamlets. In the area the EDL want to demonstrate in the 'minorities' will be the overwhelming majority. There will be no cowering behind net curtains (or the equivalent) there. Far from it. The Muslims do not need the SWP. As was shown, with the ill-judged Respect experiment, it remains, and always was the other way round.


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## bignose1 (Aug 11, 2011)

TopCat said:


> I am getting bored waiting for Bignose to come back and answer the key questions put to him. Why the delay? Is Gerry Gable writing the answer?


What the fuck are you on about.


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## TopCat (Aug 11, 2011)

Joe Reilly said:


> Instead of coming on her spitting feathers and continually debasing discussion by personalising it, why not simply come clean about why Searchlight did not want AFA in Rochdale on the day in question?
> 
> If afterall you left Searchlight in 1994, (tired of all the double-dealing and back-stabbing your involvement with them entailed) why should explaining the thinking behind that particular strategem be a problem?
> 
> Afterall its not the only time



This is what I am on about. Your working with Searchlight.


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## bignose1 (Aug 13, 2011)

TopCat said:


> This is what I am on about. Your working with Searchlight.


Am I fucking answerable to you. Do I care what you think.No and No. You really are an irritating twat who thinks that hes so fucking important that people have to queue up and explain themselves. I said what I said and thats it. I dont have or need to justify myself to you or any of your'comrades' . Take your bitterness somewhere else because I really couldnt give a toss.


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## The39thStep (Aug 13, 2011)

ayatollah said:


> Talk about deja vu ! You sound EXACTLY like the SWP full time organisers given their script in 1981 to start expelling SWP members still engaging in active anti fascist activities ( alongside a whole range of trade union and other political activity too it has to be said) after the SWP had decided that the NF was no longer a threat.
> 
> I find that sad, but all too common. It is you who is stuck in a timewarp - in the brief period of capitalist boom before the 2008 economic crisis, when amidst general prosperity, the BNP could successfully adopt to a Poujadist Right Wing electoral protest politics based really on just representing a small part of the white working class feeling threatened by the multicultural reality of modern Britain. The period very accurately covered by "Filling the Vacuum". Today, post 2008 it's a different ballgame - the BNP is collapsing - not able to deliver anything meaningful to their small electoral base to combat the rising unemployment and cuts - but the EDL type opportunist street provocations and mobilisations masquerading as "defending local white communities" are on the rise on the back of the riots of the last week .
> 
> ...



Funnily enough I was there in 1981 when the SWP made that turn .The year of the long knives.

I appreciate the point you raise about being tactically flexible and in any discussion we both might be putting each other in the the wrong pigeon whole. However my point about the imbalance in the twin startegy approach to anti fascism still stands. In most cases there is nothing but  lip service to working class community politics  but a fevered rush of excitement if the mainly rootless EDL appear on YouTube.

Your post made me think how infrequently I even read Socialist Worker these days!


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## The39thStep (Aug 13, 2011)

Got Collins book in the post this morning.  When i flicked through it the page that it opened at had a sentence along the lines that Red Action trained its members to hit building workers who came out racism with bricks.

Very poor section of pictures as well when you think what the Serachlight library must hold , amongst them a picture of John Cruddas 'One of the architects of New Labour but also of the destruction of the BNP'.

Try and read it this week.


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## butchersapron (Aug 13, 2011)

That first bit is taken directly and inaccurately from a blitz interview with RA in 88.



> “You work with six other white guys on a building site. If any of those guys makes a racist statementstarts going on about the blacks, you isolate him. Point at him and say, ‘What a fucking jerk’. Get everyone against him. Then he’s on his own. If he still persists in his racism, you hit him over the head with a house brick.


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## butchersapron (Aug 13, 2011)

To come back to the discussion around the EDL and BNP and recent events - i suspect the latter will be moving back to a more overt anti-black position (not to the 'streets' though) over the coming period. The former simply can't do the same without taking a significant step rightwards and politically towards the BNP. They can't become an anti-black group and continue to exist in any significant size as they have precisely no roots in enduring working class networks and communities, and in fact are more often associated with the sort of anti-social behaviour that we're seeing people reacting against. So, far from the BNP now being totally sidelined i think we may see a developing realignment on more traditional grounds with a fresh input from EDL type sympathisers fed up with what they see as EDL softness towards black people, the playing out of pre-existing internal divisions to the short term benefit of the BNP.

edit: and the BNP can execute this possible shift without moving away from the cultural racism that's formed a central part of the basis of the last 13 or so years success. The reaction to  last weeks events have even reinforced the political potential of that approach, esp when allied to crime and anti-social behaviour.


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## Joe Reilly (Aug 13, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> To come back to the discussion around the EDL and BNP and recent events - i suspect the latter will be moving back to a more overt anti-black position (not to the 'streets' though) over the coming period. The former simply can't do the same without taking a significant step rightwards and politically towards the BNP. They can't become an anti-black group and continue to exist in any significant size as they have precisely no roots in enduring working class networks and communities, and in fact are more often associated with the sort of anti-social behaviour that we're seeing people reacting against. So, far from the BNP now being totally sidelined i think we may see a developing realignment on more traditional grounds with a fresh input from EDL type sympathisers fed up with what they see as EDL softness towards black people, the playing out of pre-existing internal divisions to the short term benefit of the BNP.
> 
> edit: and the BNP can execute this possible shift without moving away from the cultural racism that's formed a central part of the basis of the last 13 or so years success. The reaction to last weeks events have even reinforced the political potential of that approach, esp when allied to crime and anti-social behaviour.


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## Joe Reilly (Aug 13, 2011)

I'm inclined to agree. It wouldn't be surprised to see the notion of repatriation in a soft sort of way, coming back on the agenda and being presented both by the BNP and others considered to be less politically toxic. For the soft racist vote nationally, there would be a huge attraction to the notion of being able to deport what they percieve to  be an entire criminally violent culure at one go, and might thus be considered electorally lucrative. Lets not foget, that if the voter base of the Euro elections is extrapolated it gives them a voter base of just under 3 million nationally. So there are votes there for the unscrupolous.


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## Joe Reilly (Aug 13, 2011)

bignose1 said:


> Am I fucking answerable to you. Do I care what you think.No and No. You really are an irritating twat who thinks that hes so fucking important that people have to queue up and explain themselves. I said what I said and thats it. I dont have or need to justify myself to you or any of your'comrades' . Take your bitterness somewhere else because I really couldnt give a toss.



This a discussion site. It's voluntary. If you don't want to answer for yourself or Searchlight then what exactly are you doing on here?


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## TopCat (Aug 13, 2011)

bignose1 said:


> Am I fucking answerable to you. Do I care what you think.No and No. You really are an irritating twat who thinks that hes so fucking important that people have to queue up and explain themselves. I said what I said and thats it. I dont have or need to justify myself to you or any of your'comrades' . Take your bitterness somewhere else because I really couldnt give a toss.


Your totally tarnished. Washed up. Fucked.


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## malatesta32 (Aug 14, 2011)

alright everyone, be nice! here's some good footage of an anti-mosley demo!
http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=42420

and this
http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=50299


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## bignose1 (Aug 14, 2011)

TopCat said:


> Your totally tarnished. Washed up. Fucked.


To be written off by the likes of you is fucking laughable. Washed up tarnished Fucked....oooohh


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## The39thStep (Aug 14, 2011)

TopCat said:


> Your totally tarnished. Washed up. Fucked.



Don'tfeel that that is wholly appropriate. Said fellow put a lot in in Manchester.


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## TopCat (Aug 14, 2011)

The visible stuff yes? What about the following of the Searchlight agenda? What were the effects of this and on who?


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## malatesta32 (Aug 14, 2011)

i said be nice! don't make me come up there!  ^


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## malatesta32 (Aug 14, 2011)

Ayatollah, Demu, Cogg, Melly, etc. any opinions on dave rentons stuff? shall be looking at it for 'Malatesta' book.


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## The39thStep (Aug 14, 2011)

TopCat said:


> The visible stuff yes? What about the following of the Searchlight agenda? What were the effects of this and on who?



Good question but I don't know the answer.


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## The39thStep (Aug 14, 2011)

Blimey! Still got a third to read but  Collins points out:

1) that RA's and AFA's analysis about the working class deserting Labour and the opportunities for far right was correct but that they were the first to recognise it
2) that the fash were turned over by RA and that 'they looked like them ( the NF/BNP) spoke like them and came from the same background'
3) That Ian Anderson claimed he nearly went out with Sally James from Tiswas
4) That Mr X a bearded, ex SWP and anti fascist journalist who worked for a paper owned by news International came to an arrangement whereby he passed the NF details of a phone poll that said paper had done on immigration but wouldn't publish and would name drop them and certain members in his articles.

Pass me the writ papers Alice!


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## Sue (Aug 14, 2011)

malatesta32 said:


> Ayatollah, Demu, Cogg, Melly, etc. any opinions on dave rentons stuff? shall be looking at it for 'Malatesta' book.



Know someone who was at Ruskin with him back in the day who thought he deliberately ignored historical facts because they didn't fit in with his agenda. No idea if he's improved since though I believe he went back to the SWP a few years ago after leaving/being kicked out (not sure which) some time before.


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## malatesta32 (Aug 15, 2011)

Sue said:


> Know someone who was at Ruskin with him back in the day who thought he deliberately ignored historical facts because they didn't fit in with his agenda. No idea if he's improved since though I believe he went back to the SWP a few years ago after leaving/being kicked out (not sure which) some time before.



in 'when we touched the sky' his acccount of ANL he slags off 'squaddism' and cites the usual nonsense of 'they were as bad as the nf' 'macho' etc. the swp hated the fact that if you want to stop people kicking your heads in and stopping you organising then unfortunately violence is involved. any antfascist acitivst who understands their history has to know that. as 1 of the red action guys says in BtF: i dont mind violence its the fighting i cant stand. a great quote and oh so truthful!


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## love detective (Aug 15, 2011)

_To put the quote in it's context:-_

_



			Contrary to the image of serial brawlers, this was always politics by other means. Or, as one AFA architect put it with it a straight face: “I never had any problem with the use of political violence, it was the fighting I didn’t like.” In other words, it was the political objective, not the methodology that excited.
		
Click to expand...

_


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## TopCat (Aug 15, 2011)

The39thStep said:


> Good question but I don't know the answer.


I don't know bignose1 or his achievement in Manchester but will take on trust that his achievements outweighed the issues arising from his involvement with Searchlight.


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## MellySingsDoom (Aug 15, 2011)

malatesta32 said:


> Ayatollah, Demu, Cogg, Melly, etc. any opinions on dave rentons stuff? shall be looking at it for 'Malatesta' book.



Hi Malatesta  - will have a look and get back to you as soon as I can this week (sorry, been busy/distracted on "offline" business as of late).


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## Luther Blissett (Aug 15, 2011)

malatesta32 said:


> alright everyone, be nice! here's some good footage of an anti-mosley demo!
> http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=42420


I love the way that woman walks through it all ... where was she heading, I wonder?


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## The39thStep (Aug 15, 2011)

malatesta32 said:


> in 'when we touched the sky' his acccount of ANL he slags off 'squaddism' and cites the usual nonsense of 'they were as bad as the nf' 'macho' etc. the swp hated the fact that if you want to stop people kicking your heads in and stopping you organising then unfortunately violence is involved. any antfascist acitivst who understands their history has to know that. as 1 of the red action guys says in BtF: i dont mind violence its the fighting i cant stand. a great quote and oh so truthful!



Actually you are incorrect in stating that



> the swp hated the fact that if you want to stop people kicking your heads in and stopping you organising then unfortunately violence is involved.



out of all the left in the 70s it was IS/SWP who realised that violence would be necessary to stop the NF from marching and to disrupt their paper sales. the squads were personally encouraged by members of the CC Deason and Holborrow in particular. The aim was to stop them marching and the first place this happened was at lewisham where there was considerable planning before hand.

The opposition to this approach actually came form the CP and Broad left who denounced SWP as 'the throw a brick party ' at a couple of union conferences and whose tactic was community unity with the churches normally walking or marching in the opposite direction of where ever the fash would be.

Joe Jacobs book My Life in the Ghetto was heavily promoted as a counter against what was seen as CP revisionism,as was Cable Street, Cliff and others would come out with 'If you cannot convince a Fascist, acquaint his head with the pavement.' There were a whole number of incidents before and after Lewisham where the party line was clear to attack the NF or BM. Wood Green , Brick Lane where Derek day got beaten up, Ealing Broadway , Greenford. Welling to name but a few that I was involved in.

In Acton in 1977/8, squads met at my flat waiting for phone calls to find out where the fash were.

The reality was that when the expulsions started that we were in shock for a lot if us in the SWP . we thought we were carrying out the anti fascist tradition that IS/SWP had taught us, we thought we were going to be the legacy of a pre Comintern CP.

Over the years I have had many discussion about why the expulsions took place and I am convinced it wasn't the issue of violence. It may have been that it wasn't the right kind of violence in that it wasn't mass violence delivered through Trotskyist united fronts,or that a violent reputation would ruin attracting others to the United Front ( quite the opposite in practise as the influx of working class youth /young adults began to create a bit of a culture shock to some members and apparchniks ) it may have been that there was a fear of tit for tat, or too much violence would mean a state clampdown or that violence as an activity in itself would get in the way of building what was now to be a fully fledged Trot party committed to a replace the CP and repeat 1917 properly but it wasn't a desire for pacifism as a principle.


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## The39thStep (Aug 15, 2011)

back to the Collins book ( which I must say is a hilariously funny and fascinating read). Part of the delay may have been about the issue of Mr X who is described as recognisable journalist who is ex SWP working for News International who wrote leaflets for the NF,gave the NF publicity, went to meetings and on a trip to the sea side and whose daughter was baby sat by Ian Anderson ( she would give Nazi salutes as a child according to Collins) and who attended ,with Terry Blackham, Oswald Mosley remembrance dinners.

Anti fascist around at the time might remember an article in Searchlight in 1991 which claimed that Gary Bushell , ex SWP members and a journalist on the Sun was spotted ( he may have been photographed) attending a Friends of Oswald Moseley dinner . Bushell sued ( I think he was paid his legal expenses by Searchlight) and consequently the story was never repeated in their magazine.

At what point and by which route did Bushell convert to the NF? Or was he an infiltrator to begin with?

If it safe to mention the story of Mr X now ( and its so bleeding obvious who it is) then why haven't Searchlight ever used the info with their contacts on the red tops?


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## bignose1 (Aug 17, 2011)

The39thStep said:


> back to the Collins book ( which I must say is a hilariously funny and fascinating read). Part of the delay may have been about the issue of Mr X who is described as recognisable journalist who is ex SWP working for News International who wrote leaflets for the NF,gave the NF publicity, went to meetings and on a trip to the sea side and whose daughter was baby sat by Ian Anderson ( she would give Nazi salutes as a child according to Collins) and who attended ,with Terry Blackham, Oswald Mosley remembrance dinners.
> 
> Anti fascist around at the time might remember an article in Searchlight in 1991 which claimed that Gary Bushell , ex SWP members and a journalist on the Sun was spotted ( he may have been photographed) attending a Friends of Oswald Moseley dinner . Bushell sued ( I think he was paid his legal expenses by Searchlight) and consequently the story was never repeated in their magazine.
> 
> ...



Not exactly hiding under a Bushell. Sorry. Coat.


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## malatesta32 (Aug 17, 2011)

love detective said:


> _To put the quote in it's context:-_


thanks for rectifying that LD! still a very good quote.


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## malatesta32 (Aug 17, 2011)

The39thStep said:


> Actually you are incorrect in stating that
> 
> out of all the left in the 70s it was IS/SWP who realised that violence would be necessary to stop the NF from marching and to disrupt their paper sales. the squads were personally encouraged by members of the CC Deason and Holborrow in particular. The aim was to stop them marching and the first place this happened was at lewisham where there was considerable planning before hand.
> 
> ...


 
Aye, fair anough! I got involved with the SWP cos of RAR/ANL and later again cos they were the only 1s going down the mners pickets during the pit strike. They did get the squads going but as pointed out in BtF the appalling stalinist cull against the squads, now they were no longer ‘useful idiots’ was abysmal. The action of the central committee and their lies was shameful. As detailedin btf and other places. 
I agree with you when you say ‘it wasn't the issue of violence’ I believe it was to do with the relative secrecy (essential obviosuly) and autonomy (undesirable, obviously) as well as your point. 
Jacobs book is very good and an all to rare example of militant antifsascist activity – hes good on the split between workplace activity and street activity. I assumed this was because CP membership of the time was of workers and unemployed. Hopefuly the forthcoming ‘malatesta’ book will contribute to the documentation of militant activity on the streets. Cheers for response tho! M


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## ayatollah (Sep 1, 2011)

Joe Reilly said:


> With all due respect, there are I think think one or two generalisations that need qualifying. First off while there was the appearance of capitalist 'boom', in reality as we all now know it was credit fuelled rather than real growth. For the majority a chimera. A significant point I will return to. Meanwhile there is no evidence that the BNP is collapsing because it cannnot deliver. The _internal_ problems were evident long before the cuts (many of which are yet to be implemented, or fully felt). One of the key points in the Filling the Vacuum was the prediction that the 'BNP would control their own destiny - and that of their opponents'. Nothing has happened to change that.
> 
> Moreover the idea previously advanced that these problems are sort of inevitable once the British far-right reach a certain plateau seems rather smug and complacent. There are a host of countries where the BNP political kith and kin are regularly taking 20 per cent of the vote nationally. Are all these countries more right-wing, or traditionally more prone to violence than Britain? I don't think so. Equally how many times have the FN been written only to bounce back - they were only recently _topping_ opinion polls - because the political vacuum was not filled?
> 
> ...



A number of important issues raised here : The last point first - Yes indeedy, the SWP are the ultimate in opportunism - so their call for mobilisation in the East End is their usual game -BUT it's still important for the , mainly White, Left to turn out to support ethnic minorities when all-white fascists ( or proto fascists like the EDL) organise marches in their communities - even if just to prove wrong the Islamic extremist claim to young Islamic men that all non Muslims are their automatic enemies.

Your major point however - that Britain is likely to witness the rise of a major party of the Extreme Right along the Lines of the French FN. I think the BNP has "missed the boat" I must say and isn't big enough to deliver anything tangible to their potential electorate now the post 2008 crisis is starting to bite.

However you could be right - the crisis may give the BNP or another new variation of the BNP a second wind - An impoverished middle class might go for the Far Right option in some numbers, and the fascists (in their semi respectable Poujadist guise) may then be able to stop infighting long enough to get some solid electoral success - not just a few poxy councillors in some limited wards.

But what then ? The British capitalist class, unlike in 1930's Germany, really don't want to buy ANY of the economic or immigration/labour entry or sentimental imperialistic policies the BNP are offering -and certainly don't need a street army to take on a non existent Left. So we currently have a reappearance of classic capitalist crisis , without a fightback from the working class - a historically unique situation. Which is why it's difficult to predict which way this will go as the crisis bites. The ruling class only climbs on the back of the fascist tiger when no other options are left. For an internationally integrated economy totally dependant on free labour supply, the UK capitalist class have no interest in fascist state autarky policies .

I think, as long as the Left and trades union movement remains essentially dormant, the ruling class will undermine and destroy the BNP, using all the tricks in their book, particularly if they start being electorally significant, or indeed or any other varient of the Far Right , and therefore they will be forced back on to the streets. But OK, this has a long way to go to play itself out, and therefore the Left , I think has to be both proactive on the streets against fascist, or proto-fascist, provocations when required, and ALSO be active in building an alternative at community level.

I just really think it's too early and too uncertain as to the future development of the Far Right to be too prescriptive about exactly how the Left should focus its energies as the story unfolds.


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## malatesta32 (Sep 2, 2011)

39th step! sent you a message!


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## ayatollah (Sep 2, 2011)

quote="malatesta32, post: 10374818"]Ayatollah, Demu, Cogg, Melly, etc. any opinions on dave rentons stuff? shall be looking at it for 'Malatesta' book.[/quote]
"Dave Renton" to me is just another word for "hack". Sorry to be so dismissive - but "When we touched the Sky" was just such a hackwork on the ANL. Don't get me wrong I still think ANL Mk1 was a quite brilliant Popular Front initiative , which really had a major effect on British politics and culture (Rock against Racism particularly), but Renton's misrepresentation of "Squadism" and his hilarious claim that the ANL wasn't controlled by the SWP seriously damages his credentials as a "scholar".

I was on the North West Steering Committee of the ANL in 77 -79, and I think this was the only time I really felt part of a genuinely mass movement with national impact - and that even includes my time with AFA in its early formative years .

I think there is a better book to be written than Renton's on the ANL Mk1, because in one sense Renton is right in his poor book , It was , in my opinion, too the single time in the post war period that the (avowed anyway) revolutionary Left really connected with , and was a major force in, a real mass movement. Yes it was a limited single issue campaign, and the motives of the Labour politicians and celebrities who came on board in a big way were often self interested, but it really did head off a growth trend by the NF, and a dangerous growth of racism, and Nazi imagery usage in mass youth culture. (Fancy naming a band "Joy Division" or "Spandau Ballet" - so deeply distasteful as to make anyone aware of what these terms meant in the concentration camps, boke !)

Just an aside , but to demonstrate the problems with Popular Front work, I remember going round Asian owned businesses in manchester prior to the Manchester Alexandra Park ANL Carnival in 1978. We were collecting money widely - including from Jewish and Asian businesses, and I remember one Muslim businessman handing me a wodge of cash to fund the concert, with words to the effect that "of course he knew it was the Jews behind the NF !"... I politely said I really didn't think that was the case ... but he remained convinced. I took the cash anyway ! The Manchester Carnival was attended by 35,000 people - and both overnight beforehand  and during the event was partly  stewarded by the Manchester "Squad" of course)


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## malatesta32 (Sep 2, 2011)

Ayatollah! Hopefully the ‘malatesta’ book can help with the understanding of the ANL mk1, ‘squaddism’ and RAR in the section on the 1970s in more detail. We are looking for first person accounts, like in BtF, to back up the points being made. this makes the book much more readable and less abtract. 1 or 2 folks here have kindly agreed to contribute. The book will be a collaborative effort hopefully. just finishing the proposal and sample chapter over the weekend. 
re: RAR. the influence on music and young punks was immense. the clash coming out onside was a huge moment for punks to decide what was what. The left really were strong then in places and we seemed to move from NF- right to work – riots- miners- battle of beanfield etc as a rebellious narrative in a relatively short space of time. 

Agreed re: joy div, spandau etc. Sick. But there again Sidney Viscous in is swastika t-shirt etc. It was sort of the time for that crap. 

Glad you took that blokes cash anyway!


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## Joe Reilly (Sep 3, 2011)

ayatollah said:


> A number of important issues raised here : The last point first - Yes indeedy, the SWP are the ultimate in opportunism - so their call for mobilisation in the East End is their usual game -BUT it's still important for the , mainly White, Left to turn out to support ethnic minorities when all-white fascists ( or proto fascists like the EDL) organise marches in their communities - even if just to prove wrong the Islamic extremist claim to young Islamic men that all non Muslims are their automatic enemies.



What I woefully neglected to mention was the liklehood that the UAF would make sure to seperate, indeed physically insulate, themselves from any possibility of direct conflict, or indeed contact with the EDL. Sure enough the counter-demo is called for Weavers Field smack bang in the middle of Bethnal Green, where they know the BNP would never be allowed.

In all likelehood the EDL will be bussed in via the City where it fringes Tower Hamlets. So if the young Asians want contact, or even sight of them that is where they will have to go. Needless to say if that is what they do the UAF will not be shoulder to shoulder with them. Which is the only possible way any mutual respect might emerge. However the local contempt for the Left is long established. In the early 1990's when the ANL was re-launched they decided to lealfet some estates in Bethnal Green. Ground already covered by AFA. C18 were waiting. AFA duly informed them of the risk. The incident is convered in the book, but they ploughed on anyway. Young Asians simply sniggered at the carnage that ensued.


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## ayatollah (Sep 3, 2011)

Taking on board everything said about the opportunism and vicar-infested posturing current on anti racist/anti fascist mobilisations, all I can say after watching a number of bits of video footage of the EDL and Anti EDL demos in The East End today - including a quite good bit of video on the Socialist Worker Website - is that the EDL boneheads seemed to have a boring, drunken day, and got into scuffles with the police not the local community, and there did seem to be an encouragingly large, multi ethnic, series of demos/road blockings to occupy the key streets inside the borough against any EDL interlopers. OK , Lewisham, Battle of, it wasn't, but despite all the shortcomings in those organising the anti EDL opposition, I still think , and the cheerful multi ethnic crowd scenes on the film of the events suggests this is true, that it is a good thing for the Left to turn out to oppose racists , in solidarity with local communities.

One of the great hopes the EDL and BNP, etc, must have, for their political advancement , is that lots of Muslim youth get sidetracked into counter productive jihadist "adventures", plots, outrages, etc , which will then allow the EDL/BNP etc to pose themselves as defenders against "Muslim Terror". Solidarity action by the White Left, alongside Muslim Youth, however limited in scope, can surely only be a help in fighting the alienation from the Left, and White society generally, which leaves Muslim Youth prey to the siren voices of the jihadist extremists, and their mad fantasies. So I share the cynicism about the Left and liberal posturers on days like this, but all in all it appears to me to have still been a good day for anti-fascism.

AND NOW A MUCH CHEERING UPDATE:
Apparently Not entirely a "no contact" day for everyone in the East End though from this BBC News Website report on Sunday:-

A coach full of English Defence League supporters was pelted with missiles after it broke down in east London.
The coach was carrying 44 EDL members when it stopped in Mile End Road, Tower Hamlets.
About 100 Asian teenagers then pelted it with bricks and stones, according to a BBC reporter at the scene.
Police arrested all 44 EDL supporters, who were travelling from a protest in Aldgate earlier on Saturday. A double decker bus was used to evacuate them.
Police said there had already been one altercation with local youths after the vehicle stopped in Whitechapel Road and some passengers got off the coach.
They got back on board and the coach pulled away - but it later suffered a failure and ground to a halt.
BBC reporter Paraic O' Brien, who was on the scene, said nearly 100 local teenagers then attacked it with missiles.
He said the police were on the scene extremely quickly.
'Extremely tense'
The reporter said within a short space of time there were a number of riot vans and 200 police officers in the vicinity.
O'Brien said: "It was extremely tense and if that number of officers had not arrived it could have gone the other way and become a major incident."
The police commandeered a London bus and moved the EDL supporters onto it before escorting the bus east.






 The earlier demonstration was rowdy but major disorder was avoided
But a group of youths subsequently sat down in the middle of Mile End Road, blocking the bus and forcing it to stop.
At this point a large number of Asian men began arriving from a nearby estate.
The reporter said by then the situation had become very scary.
The police charged the youths and scuffles broke out.
Another group standing on a footbridge over the road threw bricks at the bus.
Police managed to clear the road and the bus left the area.


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## malatesta32 (Sep 9, 2011)

Critique of Matthew Collins's Hate by Malatesta.
http://malatesta32.wordpress.com/
AFA/Red Action, Searchlight etc.


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## MellySingsDoom (Sep 9, 2011)

malatesta32 said:


> Critique of Matthew Collins's Hate by Malatesta.
> http://malatesta32.wordpress.com/
> AFA/Red Action, Searchlight etc.



Cheers for that, Malatesta - interesting indeed. Still waiting for my copy to turn up, but look forward to reading it once I have it.

Talking of yer man, I was re-reading the old Red Action forum recently, and there's some choices comments from various factions on Collins' shenanigans in Australia - not much of it very edifying, it has to be said! - and his relationship with Tim Hepple during his BNP days. As for his Front days, there was a "debate" between a couple of fash as to how much of a "true patriot" Collins was. One poster insisted that he knew Collins well, and that he was Ian Anderson's unofficial number 2 during his time; the other was contemptuous of this, and was of the opinion that Collins was definitely not trusted during his time there. Who knows what the truth really is on that score, eh?


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## malatesta32 (Sep 9, 2011)

hello melly! there will always be rows over who did what when etc with the fash. however, as far as actual events go i cross referenced no retreat, bash the fash, BtF with Collins on some things - like when (O Farrell?) twunted Anderson at Hemel, Eddie Whicker wigging out in Stockport, Kensington library massacree and such like. this seems to be the best way for accurate research - and forget the individual boasts!


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## The39thStep (Sep 10, 2011)

MellySingsDoom said:


> Cheers for that, Malatesta - interesting indeed. Still waiting for my copy to turn up, but look forward to reading it once I have it.
> 
> Talking of yer man, I was re-reading the old Red Action forum recently, and there's some choices comments from various factions on Collins' shenanigans in Australia - not much of it very edifying, it has to be said! - and his relationship with Tim Hepple during his BNP days. As for his Front days, there was a "debate" between a couple of fash as to how much of a "true patriot" Collins was. One poster insisted that he knew Collins well, and that he was Ian Anderson's unofficial number 2 during his time; the other was contemptuous of this, and was of the opinion that Collins was definitely not trusted during his time there. Who knows what the truth really is on that score, eh?



Whist its a bit of a mystery about what Collins got up to in Australia the stuff on the RA site ( also on the far right sites) about the attempt murder seems to be fake.


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## MellySingsDoom (Sep 10, 2011)

The39thStep said:


> Whist its a bit of a mystery about what Collins got up to in Australia the stuff on the RA site ( also on the far right sites) about the attempt murder seems to be fake.



You know what - I'd (honestly) forgotten about the attempted murder thing.  I was referencing more his apparent/alleged etc bonking sprees, general violence/aggro and throwing his weight around giving it the big "I am" - reminds me of some of the somewhat less-than-savoury stuff I've heard about "super-mole" Ray Hill, if anything.  However, I'd certainly agree that the specific allegation you picked up on does come across by the sound of it as deliberate misinformation/stirring.


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## MellySingsDoom (Sep 10, 2011)

malatesta32 said:


> hello melly! there will always be rows over who did what when etc with the fash. however, as far as actual events go i cross referenced no retreat, bash the fash, BtF with Collins on some things - like when (O Farrell?) twunted Anderson at Hemel, Eddie Whicker wigging out in Stockport, Kensington library massacree and such like. this seems to be the best way for accurate research - and forget the individual boasts!



Hi M - yeah, that particular bunfight on the RA boards definitely smacked of "I'm more "nationalist" than you!" stuff.  You've got me thinking re. the Whicker Man at Stockport - wasn't Messrs Pearce and Griffin with him, with Pearce kecking his breeks and Griffo apparently willing to "stand"?


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## The39thStep (Sep 10, 2011)

MellySingsDoom said:


> Hi M - yeah, that particular bunfight on the RA boards definitely smacked of "I'm more "nationalist" than you!" stuff. You've got me thinking re. the Whicker Man at Stockport - wasn't Messrs Pearce and Griffin with him, with Pearce kecking his breeks and Griffo apparently willing to "stand"?



Big Nose was there


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## malatesta32 (Sep 11, 2011)

MellySingsDoom said:


> Hi M - yeah, that particular bunfight on the RA boards definitely smacked of "I'm more "nationalist" than you!" stuff. You've got me thinking re. the Whicker Man at Stockport - wasn't Messrs Pearce and Griffin with him, with Pearce kecking his breeks and Griffo apparently willing to "stand"?



one of the things that the malatesta book is hoping to deal with it is to get accounts from folk who were there - as non-partisan as possible- to clarify things hence the cross referencing. it is important that definitive accounts are published and an accurate record of militant antifascist history is recorded, eg, the account of kensington in BtF and in Hate are somewhat different. the body of work is far too small at the moment which we are hoping to clarify!
re: murder attempt. was this on collins? bit unclear on this. you got a link?


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## Joe Reilly (Sep 11, 2011)

malatesta32 said:


> it is important that definitive accounts are published and an accurate record of militant antifascist history is recorded, eg, the account of kensington in BtF and in Hate are somewhat different.



Different how?


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## MellySingsDoom (Sep 11, 2011)

malatesta32 said:


> one of the things that the malatesta book is hoping to deal with it is to get accounts from folk who were there - as non-partisan as possible- to clarify things hence the cross referencing. it is important that definitive accounts are published and an accurate record of militant antifascist history is recorded, eg, the account of kensington in BtF and in Hate are somewhat different. the body of work is far too small at the moment which we are hoping to clarify!
> re: murder attempt. was this on collins? bit unclear on this. you got a link?



On the murder thing, I've just managed to find the thread in question on the RA forum: http://www.redaction.org/forum/show...37b7844&threadid=1212&perpage=15&pagenumber=1 (Scroll down to the post made by "Hot To Trot", and then seeing the posts that follow)


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## malatesta32 (Sep 11, 2011)

Joe Reilly said:


> Different how?


joe, in Hate, AFA are 'antifascists' and the 'hero of the hour' was Gable (p241-2). in BtF AFA are called by name for a start and discusses the trial of Gable and O Shea (285) in a wee bit more depth. this is what i mean by 'searchlight line.' see:
http://malatesta32.wordpress.com/2011/09/09/review-of-hate-by-matthew-collins/
and also what i mean by saying 'it is important that definitive accounts are published and an accurate record of militant antifascist history is recorded.'  We need to record our own history but we also need to record it accurately. BtF is hopefully the start of this. theres a lot of stories not documented.


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## malatesta32 (Sep 11, 2011)

MellySingsDoom said:


> On the murder thing, I've just managed to find the thread in question on the RA forum: http://www.redaction.org/forum/show...37b7844&threadid=1212&perpage=15&pagenumber=1 (Scroll down to the post made by "Hot To Trot", and then seeing the posts that follow)



thanks mate. on the thread cited Bert doesnt sound like he was too impressed with collins' fighting prowess. shall look further into it but the murder thing does sound a wee bit dodgy - like the owens/lecombover assasination thing.


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## Joe Reilly (Sep 12, 2011)

malatesta32 said:


> joe, in Hate, the 'hero of the hour' was Gable (p241-2).[/quote]
> 
> But what I'm struggling with is if as is widely acknowledged by both sides, in terms of witness statements and anecdotal evidence on fash sites, that the 'anti-fascists' had complete control of events in the hall up until the point of departure, I'm inviting you to explain what it is Collins says gable did to deserve the mention in dispatches?
> 
> Ps is Collins claiming to have been present?


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## malatesta32 (Sep 12, 2011)

'But what I'm struggling with is if as is widely acknowledged by both sides, in terms of witness statements and anecdotal evidence on fash sites, that the 'anti-fascists' had complete control of events in the hall up until the point of departure, I'm inviting you to explain what it is Collins says gable did to deserve the mention in dispatches?
Ps is Collins claiming to have been present?

joe, he said he had gone there early then nicked off for a pint with whicker and when he came back it was in turmoil. collins agrees that AFA turned them over but just refers to them as antifascists which searchlight also do in things like white riot etc. he also forgets that o shea was up in the dock with GG. what bothers me is that AFA is being written out of history by Searchlight etc so it is important for AFA supporters to counter that and also publish our side. on another note, Hate is a good read!


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## The39thStep (Sep 12, 2011)

malatesta32 said:


> 'But what I'm struggling with is if as is widely acknowledged by both sides, in terms of witness statements and anecdotal evidence on fash sites, that the 'anti-fascists' had complete control of events in the hall up until the point of departure, I'm inviting you to explain what it is Collins says gable did to deserve the mention in dispatches?
> Ps is Collins claiming to have been present?
> 
> joe, he said he had gone there early then nicked off for a pint with whicker and when he came back it was in turmoil. collins agrees that AFA turned them over but just refers to them as antifascists which searchlight also do in things like white riot etc. he also forgets that o shea was up in the dock with GG. what bothers me is that AFA is being written out of history by Searchlight etc so it is important for AFA supporters to counter that and also publish our side. on another note, Hate is a good read!



Having spoken to Matt Collins I can assure you he didn't forget anything about the man you mention.

Collins main point in his account re Gable  is the league of st george grass shaking Gables hand , a story that has been repeated ad nauseum within the far right.

You might also wish to question as to why , aside form any possible legal issues over Mr X ( which were pretty much resolved many years ago in the legal settlement) the publication of the book was delayed.


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## Joe Reilly (Sep 13, 2011)

malatesta32 said:


> joe, he said he had gone there early then nicked off for a pint with whicker and when he came back it was in turmoil. collins agrees that AFA turned them over but just refers to them as antifascists which searchlight also do in things like white riot etc. he also forgets that o shea was up in the dock with GG. what bothers me is that AFA is being written out of history by Searchlight etc so it is important for AFA supporters to counter that and also publish our side. on another note, Hate is a good read!


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## Joe Reilly (Sep 13, 2011)

There was no sign of Whicker on the day. Some bones were trampled on the way out, and other than the injured inside, that was it. It would appear that Collins appeared after the anti-fascists had left.
You recomend it as a 'good read'. Presumably you mean that its entertaining. But if there are serious doubts about its veracity, which isn't that surprising considering who wrote it, it is no more valuable as an historical record, than the Hann/Tilzey fable.


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## malatesta32 (Sep 14, 2011)

The39thStep said:


> Having spoken to Matt Collins I can assure you he didn't forget anything about the man you mention.
> 
> Collins main point in his account re Gable is the league of st george grass shaking Gables hand , a story that has been repeated ad nauseum within the far right.
> 
> You might also wish to question as to why , aside form any possible legal issues over Mr X ( which were pretty much resolved many years ago in the legal settlement) the publication of the book was delayed.



okay its just he didnt mention yer man in the book and as he was a key player in AFA/RA it seems a bit odd. i am very wary of 'stalinist airbrushing.' i hope yr meeting with collin was an endifying and enriching 1 sir!


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## malatesta32 (Sep 14, 2011)

Joe Reilly said:


> There was no sign of Whicker on the day. Some bones were trampled on the way out, and other than the injured inside, that was it. It would appear that Collins appeared after the anti-fascists had left.
> You recomend it as a 'good read'. Presumably you mean that its entertaining. But if there are serious doubts about its veracity, which isn't that surprising considering who wrote it, it is no more valuable as an historical record, than the Hann/Tilzey fable.



hi joe, i can only go on what collins said and cross refence with btf and any other account. he makes it sound like a right bloodbath, BtF less so. there is a problem between factual recording and the narrative demand to impress the reader - which is what we have to watch out for. i meant a good read as i stated in the review, a good read in the way that the best footy books are a good read, ie, handy for both toilet and public transport - tho i got a few odd looks on the bus reading a book with a swastika on the front. i cant remember if it was you who made the distinction beween 'political (auto)biography' of no retreat in comparison with BtF. Hate falls into the former.


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## dennisr (Sep 14, 2011)

ayatollah said:


> quote="malatesta32, post: 10374818"]the single time in the post war period that the (avowed anyway) revolutionary Left really connected with , and was a major force in, a real mass movement.



liverpool - the poll tax?


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## Joe Reilly (Sep 14, 2011)

dennisr said:


> liverpool - the poll tax?



I suspect he means 'mass' as in a nationally based mass movement.


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## quinny518 (Sep 14, 2011)

i read this book on my holiday and loved it, that is all...


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## Joe Reilly (Sep 15, 2011)

malatesta32 said:


> i cant remember if it was you who made the distinction beween 'political (auto)biography' of no retreat in comparison with BtF. Hate falls into the former.



Yeah, that was me. However there is another distinction between BTF and the Searchlight -Collins/No Retreat productions. BTF sticks to the facts - the other two are proving to be rather more cavalier in that regard.


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## MellySingsDoom (Sep 15, 2011)

I've now finished reading "Hate", and whilst I can't say I was "there" by and large, there's one thing I'm going to mention:  Collins at one point talks about going to a paper sale in Croydon in the late 80's, and helps defend the patch from "reds". Now I lived in Croydon up until mid-1993, and in all that time of regularly wandering around central Croydon on a Saturday, I only ever saw once some (very nervous-looking) bloke trying to flog an NF paper (it was 1990, I think, so prob. selling "The Flag").  He didn't hang around for long, as 15 minutes later I walked past the same place where he'd been, and he was no longer there.

The place in question (bottom end of George Street/top end of Church Street, just opposite Allders) used to have people occasionally selling Socialist Worker (and prob other "lefty" papers too), but I saw no trouble when they were around....and they never stuck around for that long, either..and I never saw any running battles, punch-ups etc whatsoever between fash and anti-fash, or heard of same, in all my time there.

My view?  Sure, Collins may have well visited Croydon (to visit the NF branch etc) - he's correct in stating there was a "skinhead"/racist pub there (The Ship, just off Katherine St, thankfully long-closed) - but as for his claim that there was regular paper-selling/fighting action in Croydon - hmm, personally speaking, I don't buy that one.

Any other Croydoners/ex-Croydoners here I'm sure will have their own view on this one - be interested to hear what they reckon...


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## bignose1 (Sep 16, 2011)

Joe Reilly said:


> Yeah, that was me. However there is another distinction between BTF and the Searchlight -Collins/No Retreat productions. BTF sticks to the facts - the other two are proving to be rather more cavalier in that regard.


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## bignose1 (Sep 16, 2011)




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## malatesta32 (Sep 16, 2011)

Joe Reilly said:


> Yeah, that was me. However there is another distinction between BTF and the Searchlight -Collins/No Retreat productions. BTF sticks to the facts - the other two are proving to be rather more cavalier in that regard.



hope you dont mind but ive used the phrase in a couple of other contexts. its a good handle!


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## malatesta32 (Sep 16, 2011)

MellySingsDoom said:


> I've now finished reading "Hate", and whilst I can't say I was "there" by and large, there's one thing I'm going to mention: Collins at one point talks about going to a paper sale in Croydon in the late 80's, and helps defend the patch from "reds". Now I lived in Croydon up until mid-1993, and in all that time of regularly wandering around central Croydon on a Saturday, I only ever saw once some (very nervous-looking) bloke trying to flog an NF paper (it was 1990, I think, so prob. selling "The Flag"). He didn't hang around for long, as 15 minutes later I walked past the same place where he'd been, and he was no longer there.
> 
> The place in question (bottom end of George Street/top end of Church Street, just opposite Allders) used to have people occasionally selling Socialist Worker (and prob other "lefty" papers too), but I saw no trouble when they were around....and they never stuck around for that long, either..and I never saw any running battles, punch-ups etc whatsoever between fash and anti-fash, or heard of same, in all my time there.
> 
> ...



this is what bothers me and why cross referencing is essential. although it is difficult given the small maount of antifascist literature and the difficlty of accessing things like red action and fighting talk. didnt someone put the red action stuff on a cd or am i still drunk?


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## MellySingsDoom (Sep 16, 2011)

malatesta32 said:


> this is what bothers me and why cross referencing is essential. although it is difficult given the small maount of antifascist literature and the difficlty of accessing things like red action and fighting talk. didnt someone put the red action stuff on a cd or am i still drunk?



Both butchersapron and Fozzie Bear put together an upload file of various issues of "Fighting Talk" etc a while ago - I think it's on this thread if I remember correctly.

Edit: Found it - http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...ti-fascist-action.251690/page-34#post-9164409

love detective is right too - it's not a complete set of issues.


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## love detective (Sep 16, 2011)

that file wasn't the complete back catalogue of FT (link here)

the full FT & RA archive should be going online at some point


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## malatesta32 (Sep 16, 2011)

thanks for the links. getting started on the 'malatesta' book next week so this is invaluable research.


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## TopCat (Sep 16, 2011)

MellySingsDoom said:


> I've now finished reading "Hate", and whilst I can't say I was "there" by and large, there's one thing I'm going to mention: Collins at one point talks about going to a paper sale in Croydon in the late 80's, and helps defend the patch from "reds". Now I lived in Croydon up until mid-1993, and in all that time of regularly wandering around central Croydon on a Saturday, I only ever saw once some (very nervous-looking) bloke trying to flog an NF paper (it was 1990, I think, so prob. selling "The Flag"). He didn't hang around for long, as 15 minutes later I walked past the same place where he'd been, and he was no longer there.
> 
> The place in question (bottom end of George Street/top end of Church Street, just opposite Allders) used to have people occasionally selling Socialist Worker (and prob other "lefty" papers too), but I saw no trouble when they were around....and they never stuck around for that long, either..and I never saw any running battles, punch-ups etc whatsoever between fash and anti-fash, or heard of same, in all my time there.
> 
> ...



I am a long time Croydonite. I recollect NF paper sales in St Georges Walk on a Saturday in the early eighties. It was almost always youngsters who were up front holding the papers. it used to be a bit of a squabble as to who got to give them a few digs. This was not by organised lefties but a few anarchists, locals lads, generally outraged passers by.

They gave up the regular papers sales not long after their bookshop in Pawson's Road got fucked off by the Council. This place was just over the road from my school (Selhurst Boys) and it was a popular pastime to go there in the lunch hour mob handed and smash up their scooters and exchange a few punches. I got a proper beating off of some NF types from the bookshop in about 1981/2. This was revenge for me splodging chips on Martin Webster's head and then wearing him out by running round and round in circles as he chased me, then kicking him up the bum when he was puffed out.

I don't know the Ship in Katherine Street, do you not mean a pub of the same name in the High Street? This pub was/is no NF strong hold though. More a studenty come rock pub with an excellent range of bitters.

Later on in the 80's and right up to the late nineties there was a problem with the NF (I think it was the not the BNP) forcing mainly Asian newsagents to stock their paper. It was hard to get the cooperation of the newsagents to do anything about this, they never knew when they were coming back and did not want fights in/near their shops or revenge attacks.


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## MellySingsDoom (Sep 16, 2011)

TopCat - re The Ship - yeah, it was round the corner from Katherine Street, that's the one.  When I knew all about it (from '86 onwards) it was definitely a racist pub - a mate of mine got racially abused by some skinhead arsehole right by there (co-incidence, huh?), and the landlord tried for a while to put on bands there, but insisted on only all-white bands playing - I know this cos someone I knew asked about doing gigs there, and ended up getting into a barney w/the landlord about it.  Everyone I knew avoided the place, by and large - there were other drinking opportunities in Croydon, anyway.  I for one was not sorry to see the place close down - the pubs on Surrey Street were nicer for a proper pub atmosphere 

The St Georges Walk thing - was that at the top or bottom end, out of interest?  I'm guessing it would be the bottom end where H&R Cloake was round the corner...the NF paper/Asian shops thing sounds strange, in that from what I can gather, the NF Croydon lot defected to the BNP in 92/93, and didn't Anderson throw in the towel w/"The Flag" in '94???  Mind you, I wouldn't put anything past the NF re the bullying behaviour, that sounds well horrible.

If I ever bump into you "offline", I'll buy you a pint of whatever you're having for sacrifing your chips on Webster's bonce and giving him the run-around


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## malatesta32 (Sep 16, 2011)

'This was revenge for me splodging chips on Martin Webster's head and then wearing him out by running round and round in circles as he chased me, then kicking him up the bum when he was puffed out.'
Thats gold! its gotta go in the malatesta book! masterrace indeed eh?


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## ayatollah (Sep 16, 2011)

Joe Reilly said:


> Yeah, that was me. However there is another distinction between BTF and the Searchlight -Collins/No Retreat productions. BTF sticks to the facts - the other two are proving to be rather more cavalier in that regard.



Just so you know what info to depend on,for your book, and what not to trust, Malatesta....

I can assure you that most of what Tilzey writes in BTF, certainly up to 1987, is pretty accurate. OK, some events described are amalgamations of a number of separate events, and not all people cited were at specific events (eg, Tilzey wasn't at the Battle of Piccadilly --he really WAS that Saturday working on the fishstall, which made his alibi cast iron !), BUT it's still a pretty accurate description of that era. Pity to discount all of BTF because of the Hann controversy.


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## Smokeandsteam (Sep 16, 2011)

love detective said:


> that file wasn't the complete back catalogue of FT (link here)
> 
> the full FT & RA archive should be going online at some point



Good news - but can someone explain how I can save/open the AFA Zip file? Apols but I'm a bit crap with this sort of stuff.


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## MellySingsDoom (Sep 16, 2011)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Good news - but can someone explain how I can save/open the AFA Zip file? Apols but I'm a bit crap with this sort of stuff.



You can download an open source ZIP file opener thingym and once that's installed, click on the ZIP file and away you go! (WinZIP is pretty good for that).


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## Smokeandsteam (Sep 16, 2011)

MellySingsDoom said:


> You can download an open source ZIP file opener thingym and once that's installed, click on the ZIP file and away you go! (WinZIP is pretty good for that).



Err right - I'll have a go. Thanks for the help


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## love detective (Sep 16, 2011)

or you can download then individually from this link

(but will probably take a lot longer as you have to wait a minute before each download can be started)


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## miktheword (Sep 16, 2011)

ayatollah said:


> Just so you know what info to depend on,for your book, and what not to trust, Malatesta....
> 
> I can assure you that most of what Tilzey writes in BTF, certainly up to 1987, is pretty accurate. OK, some events described are amalgamations of a number of separate events, and not all people cited were at specific events (eg, Tilzey wasn't at the Battle of Piccadilly --he really WAS that Saturday working on the fishstall, which made his alibi cast iron !), *BUT it's still a pretty accurate description of that era. Pity to discount all of BTF because of the Hann controversy*.



Ayatollah, re your last line..do you mean 'pit_y to discount all of No Retreat'.._due to Hann etc?


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## malatesta32 (Sep 17, 2011)

cheers ayatollah! the amount of books dealing with this area is woefully small but by cross referencing helps clarify, ie, collins account of stockport and Tilz's help you get the picture. what is most useful is the 1st person accounts on places like this, especially topcat's story about webster and chips. thats just hilarious!


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## malatesta32 (Sep 17, 2011)

love detective said:


> that file wasn't the complete back catalogue of FT (link here)
> 
> the full FT & RA archive should be going online at some point



LD, there is quite a bit of uncollated stuff that antifascists have on AFA/RA (press cuttings, posters, pix) that is in danger of disappearing. just thinking but is there any chance of getting the website with RA and fighting talk on but which can also receive and upload images that folk send in? many antifascists have bits and pieces that are in pretty poor condition and an online antifascist resource site wd be fantastic. the malatestas still mourn the passing of the typewriter and are techno-klutzes and cant do this kind of thing. anyone?


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## ayatollah (Sep 17, 2011)

miktheword said:


> Ayatollah, re your last line..do you mean 'pit_y to discount all of No Retreat'.._due to Hann etc?


Yes Sorry, Brainfade I'm afraid- Yes I MEANT to say that not ALL of NO RETREAT should be discounted just because of all the hoo hah about Hann's bit of the book. I can't verify the post 1987 bit of NR though on Tilzey's behalf - the Searchlight bit, as I wasn't around - and that bit seems to be the  controversial bit for his contribution too.

Sorry about the "senior moment" confusion on my part !


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## audiotech (Sep 17, 2011)

malatesta32 said:


> cheers ayatollah! the amount of books dealing with this area is woefully small but by cross referencing helps clarify, ie, collins account of stockport and Tilz's help you get the picture. what is most useful is the 1st person accounts on places like this, especially topcat's story about webster and chips. thats just hilarious!



Check yer inbox.


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## bignose1 (Sep 20, 2011)

ayatollah said:


> Yes Sorry, Brainfade I'm afraid- Yes I MEANT to say that not ALL of NO RETREAT should be discounted just because of all the hoo hah about Hann's bit of the book. I can't verify the post 1987 bit of NR though on Tilzey's behalf - the Searchlight bit, as I wasn't around - and that bit seems to be the controversial bit for his contribution too.
> 
> Sorry about the "senior moment" confusion on my part !



JP,the Searchlight bit is controversial. Cos Denis and O'Shea say so. Fair cop guv.


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## ayatollah (Sep 23, 2011)

Hi Bignose,
Whatever did or didn't happen in the "Searchlight phase" I know that you are an active trades unionist, shop steward, in the public sector, fighting the bosses' attacks for your members, so you are still in there in the Class Struggle, mate, which is more than I am, or many others are, nowadays. So we should all maybe look to the present rather than rake over the ashes of the dead past.

Solidarity in action, that's all that is needed as the crisis bites, mate.


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## bignose1 (Sep 25, 2011)

ayatollah said:


> Hi Bignose,
> Whatever did or didn't happen in the "Searchlight phase" I know that you are an active trades unionist, shop steward, in the public sector, fighting the bosses' attacks for your members, so you are still in there in the Class Struggle, mate, which is more than I am, or many others are, nowadays. So we should all maybe look to the present rather than rake over the ashes of the dead past.
> 
> Solidarity in action, that's all that is needed as the crisis bites, mate.


JP Its always been my way that the struggle is greater than the individual and that RA apart Ive never been in a 'party' But then thats perhaps been my downfall, trying to please everyone, be everyones mate,colleague,brother,comrade. Its a noble stance but then you put yourself on offer. Ive even got Utd mates who have a go at me because Im pals with some of Citys lads. Ive got some mates hovering around th EDL. Ill try and get through to them...why chanting Munch, Hillsborough and galatassary is wrong and all Pakis are Alqueda and therefore are sus is shite. Always for me a class thing but far from being choosy and on the other hand too 'united front' Ive the respect of many quarters in the movement for being non sectarian*, thats not blowing my own trumpet thats because my TU work, anti racist work and anti capitalist stance has been solid, so where this washed out and fucked thing comes from Im not sure but my colleagues who Ive defended in Unison recently might differ. *(And that doesnt exclude the Labour twats who sold us out and who are culpable and should be told.) JP you talk a lot of sense on here which if people read means your still involved..you have my repect.


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## TopCat (Sep 26, 2011)

If the Searchlight stuff means little why not be open about it?


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## bignose1 (Sep 27, 2011)

TopCat said:


> If the Searchlight stuff means little why not be open about it?


Sorry not sure what you mean by that....the Searchlight stuff was a meaningful part of my anti fascist life. I spent time in Scandinavia and helped Stieg Larsson and his colleagues set up an anti-fascist network and on the other hnd would speak to half a dozen schoolkids in an Openshaw youth club. I had no agenda other than to continue to make my city a no go area for organsied fascists. And if I could help further afield then thats a bonus. Ill tell you what..Ive not got a big nose for nowt. Id have smelt an agenda led rat a mile away. Thats not to say Ive no politics or ideology I mean the 'carve out' type of stuff that littered the left. Not for me matey. If you want to ask specific questions about my Searchlight involvement with which you have a problem  fine...ask me and i might answer them. But dont generalise or create an 'explanation' to suit.


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## Demu (Sep 29, 2011)

bignose1 said:


> JP Its always been my way that the struggle is greater than the individual and that RA apart Ive never been in a 'party' But then thats perhaps been my downfall, trying to please everyone, be everyones mate,colleague,brother,comrade. Its a noble stance but then you put yourself on offer. Ive even got Utd mates who have a go at me because Im pals with some of Citys lads. Ive got some mates hovering around th EDL. Ill try and get through to them...why chanting Munch, Hillsborough and galatassary is wrong and all Pakis are Alqueda and therefore are sus is shite. Always for me a class thing but far from being choosy and on the other hand too 'united front' Ive the respect of many quarters in the movement for being non sectarian*, thats not blowing my own trumpet thats because my TU work, anti racist work and anti capitalist stance has been solid, so where this washed out and fucked thing comes from Im not sure but my colleagues who Ive defended in Unison recently might differ. *(And that doesnt exclude the Labour twats who sold us out and who are culpable and should be told.) JP you talk a lot of sense on here which if people read means your still involved..you have my repect.



Get me a bucket..............


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## bignose1 (Sep 29, 2011)

Demu said:


> Get me a bucket..............[/quote


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## bignose1 (Sep 29, 2011)

Demu said:


> Get me a bucket..............



Not quite as pukesome as your 'should see the crew weve got now quote'
Prick


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## TopCat (Sep 30, 2011)

bignose1 said:


> Sorry not sure what you mean by that....the Searchlight stuff was a meaningful part of my anti fascist life. I spent time in Scandinavia and helped Stieg Larsson and his colleagues set up an anti-fascist network and on the other hnd would speak to half a dozen schoolkids in an Openshaw youth club. I had no agenda other than to continue to make my city a no go area for organsied fascists. And if I could help further afield then thats a bonus. Ill tell you what..Ive not got a big nose for nowt. Id have smelt an agenda led rat a mile away. Thats not to say Ive no politics or ideology I mean the 'carve out' type of stuff that littered the left. Not for me matey. If you want to ask specific questions about my Searchlight involvement with which you have a problem fine...ask me and i might answer them. But dont generalise or create an 'explanation' to suit.


I regard Searchlight as dogs. Not progressive but dogs.


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## Dhimmi (Oct 2, 2011)

tl:dr

Dave Spart wrote this?


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## ayatollah (Oct 7, 2011)

Interesting, and worrying, article on Reuters today - about the French Far Right FN capitalising on the endless destructive antics of international Finance Capital to build its support base. Nothing new about that of course - and we all know that when identifying , correctly, Finance capital , as a major culprit in the current world crisis - the fascists really mean *Jewish* Finance capitalism - and so all the old 1930's issues once again surface.

Same old, same old , there then , but the article was also looking at the phenomenum of previous Far Leftists also moving over to the FN :

Reuters quote:
"Fabien Engelmann, a 32-year old municipal plumber with tight-cropped hair, was an activist with France's leading trade union and a Trotskyist for many years. Later he joined the far-left "New Anticapitalist Party." This year he switched party again, but not on a leftist ticket.
He joined France's famed far-right National Front, and he was not the only one."

All very familiar from the German 1930's experience too of course - whole fighting units of the Brownshirts and the Left swapped loyalties then as the struggle ebbed and flowed - assisted by the often apparent left face presented by the Nazis to the Brownshirt followers (until the wake up call on the Night of the Long Knives in 1934 of course !)

This should be a wake up call in the UK on the Left of the danger of apparently solid socialists/radicals in a deep social crisis being tempted to the Right by the siren voices of pseudo Leftish rhetoric that the likes of the BNP and EDL are capable of.

I fear that any radical individual or group that abandons the underlying political principals of socialism in its broadest sense, despite all the problems we all understand with the record of socialism historically - not least the "elephant in the room "- of Stalinism, will be particularly prey to follow eventually the route to the Right exhibitted by the examples in the Reuters report as the current crisis goes into its next phases of economic breakdown.


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## MellySingsDoom (Oct 7, 2011)

ayatollah - I was chatting to frogwoman about this "left/right convergence" yesterday, with regard to a certain bunch of "neofolk" musicians (think "Crisis".....)


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## Random (Oct 7, 2011)

bignose1 said:


> the Searchlight stuff was a meaningful part of my anti fascist life. I spent time in Scandinavia and helped Stieg Larsson and his colleagues set up an anti-fascist network


 That's interesting. I live in Sweden and I've suspected for a while that Expo are the equivalent of Searchlight here, but until now I've not heard of any concrete links. If you'd like to say more on this, I'd like to know; partly because I meet Expo people fairly often through my job and would like to know more about where they're coming from. Larsson himself was a trot or left leninist of some sort iirc.


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## audiotech (Oct 7, 2011)

Communist party members were tearing up their party cards and joining the FN back when Le-Pen was on a roll. In the 90's was it?


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## audiotech (Oct 7, 2011)

Random said:


> That's interesting. I live in Sweden and I've suspected for a while that Expo are the equivalent of Searchlight here, but until now I've not heard of any concrete links. If you'd like to say more on this, I'd like to know; partly because I meet Expo people fairly often through my job and would like to know more about where they're coming from. Larsson himself was a trot or left leninist of some sort iirc.



Writer and researcher, Stieg Larsson's, lifelong partner, Eva Gabrielsson, talks about their research into right-wing extremism in Scandavia and Europe they did together before his death. Stieg Larson founded the Swedish Expo Foundation, who publish the sister magazine to Searchlight.

http://www.democracynow.org/2011/7/27/before_death_acclaimed_girl_with_dragon

Eva Gabrielsson has a new book out about her life with Steig Larson.


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## Random (Oct 7, 2011)

audiotech said:


> Writer and researcher, Stieg Larsson's, lifelong partner, Eva Gabrielsson, talks about their research into right-wing extremism in Scandavia and Europe they did together before his death. Stieg Larson founded the Swedish Expo Foundation, who publish the sister magazine to Searchlight.


 Thanks for that.


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## Fedayn (Oct 7, 2011)

Random said:


> That's interesting. I live in Sweden and I've suspected for a while that Expo are the equivalent of Searchlight here, but until now I've not heard of any concrete links. If you'd like to say more on this, I'd like to know; partly because I meet Expo people fairly often through my job and would like to know more about where they're coming from. Larsson himself was a trot or left leninist of some sort iirc.



He was editor of the 4th International's Swedish paper Fjarde Internationalen. I dunno which bit of the split he went with in the early 1990's though.


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## Nigel Irritable (Oct 7, 2011)

Fedayn said:


> He was editor of the 4th International's Swedish paper Fjarde Internationalen. I dunno which bit of the split he went with in the early 1990's though.



The Swedish USFI section, called the "Socialist Party", are happy-clappy soft and fuzzy sorts, all "new movements" and greenery and are only "Trotskyists" or "Leninists" in a sort of ancestral way. They were still too radical for Larsson as he evolved politically though, and by the time he was writing his novels he was essentially a left social democrat with a particular focus on feminism and anti-fascism.


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## bignose1 (Oct 8, 2011)

Random said:


> That's interesting. I live in Sweden and I've suspected for a while that Expo are the equivalent of Searchlight here, but until now I've not heard of any concrete links. If you'd like to say more on this, I'd like to know; partly because I meet Expo people fairly often through my job and would like to know more about where they're coming from. Larsson himself was a trot or left leninist of some sort iirc.



Suspected...like it was a fucking big secret..youve come on here to shit stir


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## MellySingsDoom (Oct 8, 2011)

audiotech said:


> Writer and researcher, Stieg Larsson's, lifelong partner, Eva Gabrielsson, talks about their research into right-wing extremism in Scandavia and Europe they did together before his death. Stieg Larson founded the Swedish Expo Foundation, who publish the sister magazine to Searchlight.
> 
> http://www.democracynow.org/2011/7/27/before_death_acclaimed_girl_with_dragon
> 
> Eva Gabrielsson has a new book out about her life with Steig Larson.



Meant to post this yesterday - Stieg Larsson was one of the contributors to the Searchlight "White Noise" publication in the late 90's (about the White Power music scene in the UK,. Europe and the US).  Larsson contributea an article about the White Power scene in Sweden, mentioning certain link-ups with Combat 18 et al.


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## Random (Oct 10, 2011)

bignose1 said:


> Suspected...like it was a fucking big secret..youve come on here to shit stir


Yes, I suspected, because Expo use similar methods to Searchlight and have a similar agenda of also opposing left wing groups. The Expo About Us page doesn't mention Searchlight http://expo.se/2010/about-expo_3514.html and so I was left wondering. But as audiotech just showed, it is really no big secret, and a quick google would have showed me some details.


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## bignose1 (Oct 10, 2011)

Random said:


> Yes, I suspected, because Expo use similar methods to Searchlight and have a similar agenda of also opposing left wing groups. The Expo About Us page doesn't mention Searchlight http://expo.se/2010/about-expo_3514.html and so I was left wondering. But as audiotech just showed, it is really no big secret, and a quick google would have showed me some details.



Opposing left wing groups...what utter garbage..whose scripting you...


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## Random (Oct 10, 2011)

bignose1 said:


> Opposing left wing groups...what utter garbage..whose scripting you...


It's well known that both Searchlight and Expo oppose militant antifascists as well as the far right; both are seen as a threat to democracy. Robert Aschberg said this to me in person, so I'm not making it up.


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## TopCat (Oct 10, 2011)

You don't have to do much to shit stir when it comes to searchlight do you? Given the shit they have got up to in the past and no doubt present? So when you have someone like bignose who is forever welded to them because of his actions no wonder he gets touchy. makes no difference. Lie down with dogs etc etc...


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## Joe Reilly (Oct 10, 2011)

Random said:


> It's well known that both Searchlight and Expo oppose militant antifascists as well as the far right; both are seen as a threat to democracy. Robert Aschberg said this to me in person, so I'm not making it up.



At the risk of repeating myself the Searchlight agenda is not actually anti-fascist but state sponsored anti-extremist - targetting and manipulating at either end of the political spectrum.


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## TopCat (Oct 10, 2011)

Keep repeating it Joe, shout it loud and long...


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## articul8 (Oct 10, 2011)

Nigel Irritable said:


> The Swedish USFI section, called the "Socialist Party", are happy-clappy soft and fuzzy sorts, all "new movements" and greenery and are only "Trotskyists" or "Leninists" in a sort of ancestral way.


As opposed to hard-core anti-diluvian dinosaurs who think they are still living somewhere between 1924-1945?


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## The39thStep (Oct 10, 2011)

Third period Trotskyism


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## bignose1 (Oct 11, 2011)

TopCat said:


> You don't have to do much to shit stir when it comes to searchlight do you? Given the shit they have got up to in the past and no doubt present? So when you have someone like bignose who is forever welded to them because of his actions no wonder he gets touchy. makes no difference. Lie down with dogs etc etc...



Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawwwwnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 11, 2011)

bignose1 said:


> Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawwwwnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn.


and there was me thinking you could put together a semi-coherent sentence.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 11, 2011)

bignose1 said:


> Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawwwwnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn.


It's anything but boring. Your tactics to duck your actions and their results are quite bizarre. Do you have any expectation that they actually work?


----------



## Random (Oct 11, 2011)

TopCat said:


> You don't have to do much to shit stir when it comes to searchlight do you? Given the shit they have got up to in the past and no doubt present? So when you have someone like bignose who is forever welded to them because of his actions no wonder he gets touchy. makes no difference. Lie down with dogs etc etc...


It just seems bokers that someone like bignose would deny what is the openly stated goal of Searchlight and Expo.


----------



## bignose1 (Oct 11, 2011)

TopCat said:


> It's anything but boring. Your tactics to duck your actions and their results are quite bizarre. Do you have any expectation that they actually work?



What am I ducking ffs. Whats bizarre???...stop talking in riddles. I have no expectations regards what you believe..because quite honestly your tainted.
as for Random...set out the openly stated goals of S/light/Expo. Which is equally bizarre because then they cant be underhand by definition. A bit of a contradiction.
( your mutual wanking off over this gets worse..

I might not be able to to put together a semi-coherent sentence but your argument is totally incoherent as you fail to give me one example of my so called "personal" treachery.
as for the johny come latelies adding to this...earn your right first


----------



## Random (Oct 11, 2011)

bignose1 said:


> as for Random...set out the openly stated goals of S/light/Expo. Which is equally bizarre because then they cant be underhand by definition. A bit of a contradiction.


 Where did I ever say they were underhand? Like I said above, the people running Expo are open about the fact that they oppose people from the radical left as well.


----------



## Red Storm (Oct 11, 2011)

I'm going to be studying anti-fascist political violence and it's justification for my final year thesis. Hopefully concentrating on AFA.

Does anyone know of any good literature or academic works an AFA?


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Oct 11, 2011)

Red Storm said:


> I'm going to be studying anti-fascist political violence and it's justification for my final year thesis. Hopefully concentrating on AFA.
> 
> Does anyone know of any good literature or academic works an AFA?



You could try Larry O'Hara - he did his PhD on similar lines, if memory serves.  Personally speaking, I think the fabulous Larry is completely nutso paranoid, and liable to see an M15 conspiracy in a cup of tea, but other people out there rate him, so there you go...

(I bet Larry ends up back here again accusing me of being one of the "scum"...hello Larry!)


----------



## frogwoman (Oct 11, 2011)

Red Storm said:


> I'm going to be studying anti-fascist political violence and it's justification for my final year thesis. Hopefully concentrating on AFA.
> 
> Does anyone know of any good literature or academic works an AFA?



a mate of mine did his masters' thesis on afa etc. i could ask him.


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## Red Storm (Oct 11, 2011)

Cheers. 

If you could get him to email me it that would be fantastic!


----------



## frogwoman (Oct 11, 2011)

Im seeing him this weekend so i'll ask then


----------



## malatesta32 (Oct 11, 2011)

Red Storm said:


> I'm going to be studying anti-fascist political violence and it's justification for my final year thesis. Hopefully concentrating on AFA.
> Does anyone know of any good literature or academic works an AFA?



beating the fascists is by far the most thorough ande the best thing of late but try also: k bullstreets bash the fash; no retreat by tilzey & hann (alright calm down!); white riot by nick lowles; Anti Fascist Action by ex liverpool AFA; heroes or villains by AFA; turning up the heat by larry o hara is good on red action/AFA; Matthew collins's hate from the other side; and for a good read, martin lux antifascist for preAFA escapades. more academically, nigel copsey is okay and a lot better than dave renton who is, to quote our ayatollah, 'a hack!'  for deeper background research both benewick and clutterbuck are good on 1970s political violence & NF, thurlow on NF in 70s is also good. somewhere on here Liam O (where did he go?) and maybe others have posted some cracking 1st person accounts of hairy ventures! dunno which threads tho. hope this helps.


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## krink (Oct 12, 2011)

Is the liverpool afa one on-line anywhere or easy to purchase? never read that one.


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## Red Storm (Oct 12, 2011)

It's a pamphlet and you can buy it on Amazon.co.uk


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## krink (Oct 12, 2011)

ok ta


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## Demu (Oct 12, 2011)

bignose1 said:


> Not quite as pukesome as your 'should see the crew weve got now quote'
> Prick



Dearie dearie me. Shame you didn't have the confidence to leave your previous post up before deleting. We could have had a nice chat about that one.

Sometimes when I think back some 25 years ago when mad Roy had you by the neck........was I right to intervene? Ah well, just me being a prick eh?

For the wider audience, bignose remark above relates to when he found out where I drank and began stalking me. Pretending to be my long lost best friend ever....until I lost patience wondering what the fuck he wanted. He then told anyone who would listen to him that I had thrown him out of his local!!!

Not sure what your reference to the people I watch football with, has to do with anything, but, funnily enough some of them witnessed your shenanigans at the United legends night in Dublin.

Bumped into one of your crew recently when I met up with some activists in Manchester. Fellow by the name of Simon. Claimed he fell out with me 10 years ago. I told him I have never met him, do not recognise him and have certainly not fell out with him.’ I’m a mate of Steve Tilzey and Glen’ he said. 'And I had long hair then.'

What did we fall out about I enquired? About Dave Hann he said. I told him that was 15 years ago and he most certainly was not around or involved. End of conversation.

Another AFA veteran has had a similar experience with your friend Simon, to whom he claimed that he was in AFA circa 1996, and had been out on jobs with the well known and highly respected AFA veteran. The veteran said I’m sorry but I do not know you, are you sure? Yes yes AFA stuff years ago, I know Steve Tilzey was Simon’s response. Sorry I have never worked with you was the reply from the veteran.

Was this the same person you had in tow at Dessy’s funeral? If it was, then it was the first time both myself and the AFA veteran had ever seen him, and he certainly didn’t know us. So how he can claim to have already met and worked/fell out with us some years previous to this is pretty damn  remarkable.

Perhaps you can shed some light on this.


----------



## bignose1 (Oct 12, 2011)

Demu said:


> Dearie dearie me. Shame you didn't have the confidence to leave your previous post up before deleting. We could have had a nice chat about that one.
> 
> Sometimes when I think back some 25 years ago when mad Roy had you by the neck........was I right to intervene? Ah well, just me being a prick eh?
> 
> ...



I found out where you drank...dont think so...one of your pals invited me over from a pub across the road..you were fine,,you gave me a hug. Dont forget Denis it is my local..I didnt even know you were back in Manchester. Stalking you..fucking hell do me a favour... Re Roy...who had a history of flying off the handle..cant remember for sure but was it when I was driving a van in Stockport after eddie whickers court case? and he twatted me from behind..class eh. For the record I remember you getting chased outside the Grants a few years back by a local pissed off by your shenanigans, round and round a car, quite funny at the time. Oh and what a hero you were picking on those two brothers..Raith..forget the other one. You tormented them constantly...often just punching them in the face for no reason. You hide behind gangs and veiled threats but Ive sussed you out. Youve no working class legacy..your record consists of a few punch ups here and there and fuck all else. And you slag me off for being washed up..fucked blah blah. Tell you what Cifford you dont half ramble. But then youve got a crew listening to you.


----------



## Demu (Oct 12, 2011)

bignose1 said:


> I found out where you drank...dont think so...one of your pals invited me over from a pub across the road..you were fine,,you gave me a hug. Dont forget Denis it is my local..I didnt even know you were back in Manchester. Stalking you..fucking hell do me a favour... Re Roy...who had a history of flying off the handle..cant remember for sure but was it when I was driving a van in Stockport after eddie whickers court case? and he twatted me from behind..class eh. For the record I remember you getting chased outside the Grants a few years back by a local pissed off by your shenanigans, round and round a car, quite funny at the time. Oh and what a hero you were picking on those two brothers..Raith..forget the other one. You tormented them constantly...often just punching them in the face for no reason. You hide behind gangs and veiled threats but Ive sussed you out. Youve no working class legacy..your record consists of a few punch ups here and there and fuck all else. And you slag me off for being washed up..fucked blah blah. Tell you what Cifford you dont half ramble. But then youve got a crew listening to you.



And Simon?


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Oct 13, 2011)

articul8 said:


> As opposed to hard-core anti-diluvian dinosaurs who think they are still living somewhere between 1924-1945?



I'm not surprised that you approve. Red Pepper would doubtless get along wonderfully well with them.


----------



## bignose1 (Oct 13, 2011)

Demu said:


> And Simon?


Re Dublin legends night...about 4 years ago with Paddy C, Gordon McQ and Boylie. Ive been to 3 since. Shenanigans...change of venue at short notice to a somewhat unfriendly part of the City. A bit like the reception I got last time I clapped eyes on you in yer "local"
Simon...what am I supposed to be responding to..what do you want me to admit to..what what what..here you go again..


----------



## malatesta32 (Oct 13, 2011)

krink said:


> Is the liverpool afa one on-line anywhere or easy to purchase? never read that one.


malatetsa pulic library service present k bullstreets bash t' fash!
http://libcom.org/library/bash-the-fash-anti-fascist-recollections-1984-1993


----------



## malatesta32 (Oct 13, 2011)

sorry, scroll down the above. then click on
1985-2001: Anti-Fascist Action (AFA)
M


----------



## TopCat (Oct 13, 2011)

bignose1 said:


> I have no expectations regards what you believe..because quite honestly your tainted.


 
How am I tainted Steve?


----------



## ayatollah (Oct 13, 2011)

For those in the dark - the mysterious "Simon" that Demu refers to in a post recently is currently lurking about with the MAFA group in Manchester. Pretending to have long time associations with old anti fascist activists , which turn out to be bogus, is of course usually the " performance art "of ****** (ed - phrase deleted for legal reasons) of some sort. As has been said many times before , anti fascists always need to keep their wits about them about possible agent provocateurs in their midst.

As some will recall (no doubt with amusement) a few of us in Manchester in the Squad in 1980 weren't always as wary as we should have been - and ended up doing time for our casualness about unchecked-out people hanging about around us - though we were generally pretty careful --- but one slip and they've got you, so be wary , be careful.

But Demu... Bignose... come on guys .... time to move on and let it all go. The new capitalist crisis is upon us, and it's time to face up to that.


----------



## Deareg (Oct 13, 2011)

Has he been checked properly? It seems a bit premature naming him on here unless he has been checked out.


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## past caring (Oct 13, 2011)

ayatollah said:


> Pretending to have long time associations with old anti fascist activists , which turn out to be bogus, is of course usually the " performance art "of ++++ of some sort.



Not to disagree with your general point, but I've known several bods with this MO who I think, on reflection, were not state - the motivation in their case was to give it the big I am and be seen as being "in". Personal inadequates in other words. Of course, such types have to be kept at arm's length just as much as someone who is actually dodge, for the simple fact that anything they know will also be known to everyone else in fairly short order.


----------



## Deareg (Oct 13, 2011)

past caring said:


> Not to disagree with your general point, but I've known several bods with this MO who I think, on reflection, were not state - the motivation in their case was to give it the big I am and be seen as being "in". Personal inadequates in other words. Of course, such types have to be kept at arm's length just as much as someone who is actually dodge, for the simple fact that anything they know will also be known to everyone else in fairly short order.



This is exactly what I was thinking.


----------



## ayatollah (Oct 13, 2011)

past caring said:


> Not to disagree with your general point, but I've known several bods with this MO who I think, on reflection, were not state - the motivation in their case was to give it the big I am and be seen as being "in". Personal inadequates in other words. Of course, such types have to be kept at arm's length just as much as someone who is actually dodge, for the simple fact that anything they know will also be known to everyone else in fairly short order.



You are probably quite right. From what Demu says about his rather surreal interaction with this bod he at least needs checking out.


----------



## Deareg (Oct 13, 2011)

ayatollah said:


> You are probably quite right. From what Demu says about his rather surreal interaction with this bod he at least needs checking out.


Then do you not think that you should delete the post referring to him?


----------



## Joe Reilly (Oct 13, 2011)

bignose1 said:


> Youve no working class legacy..your record consists of a few punch ups here and there and fuck all else.



But then Steve, according to another good pal of yours, Glen P./Abu/?/none of us, have any 'real working class legacy' do we? At a public meeting in Belfast in July, accompanied by Hann's missus, he publicly denounced the contributors to BTF as nothing but 'armachair generals'.

 Prior to that he had pointed the finger at another former AFA organiser as a 'tout'. This led to a formal investigation by the republican group Eirighi - at it should be said, the insistence of the victim of the smear.

After being interviewed by senior republicans, the investigation concluded that it was Glen P and not the target of the smear that was a tad dodgy.

He has duly been informed he is persona non grata.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Oct 13, 2011)

past caring said:


> Not to disagree with your general point, but I've known several bods with this MO who I think, on reflection, were not state - the motivation in their case was to give it the big I am and be seen as being "in". Personal inadequates in other words. Of course, such types have to be kept at arm's length just as much as someone who is actually dodge, for the simple fact that anything they know will also be known to everyone else in fairly short order.



Not to disagree with _your_ general point, but the problem is that it is often very difficult to tell them apart. Not only that, but if permitted they can wreak as much damage as any paid agent. They tend to spread lies, about themselves and everyone else; elevate gossip to fact, and are invariably found on the wrong side of every political discussion. Though they can manipulate they can also be effortlessy manipulated, and are thus utterly unreliable at best, and are generally devastatingly corrosive to morale. You should know.

Think of the branch meetings in south London AFA shortly before the end and tell me I'm wrong!

As I understand it, off the back of a no doubt swash-buckling CV, one of the aforementioned leading lights went on to enjoy a senior role in Antifa, leading inevitably to many an activist in the jail or facing it.

Finally if not malign, just merely inadequate, their eccentric behaviour can create the ideal environment for the genuine article to hide in plain sight. Anyone who surrounds himself with such creatures is himself a de facto if not de jure traitor to the movement.


----------



## Demu (Oct 14, 2011)

Deareg said:


> Has he been checked properly? It seems a bit premature naming him on here unless he has been checked out.



Deareg, who are you expecting to check him out? Do you know this Simon fella?

Incidentally the other 2 activists who he claims to have met and worked with are both well known to you.


----------



## Deareg (Oct 14, 2011)

Demu said:


> Deareg, who are you expecting to check him out? Do you know this Simon fella?
> 
> Incidentally the other 2 activists who he claims to have met and worked with are both well known to you.





Demu said:


> Deareg, who are you expecting to check him out? Do you know this Simon fella?
> 
> Incidentally the other 2 activists who he claims to have met and worked with are both well known to you.


I don't know him at least I don't think so and I am not doubting your word either, I just think that it is wrong to label him publicly until some attempt has at least been made to verify his story, you are right to be wary and right to warn people privately, the only way that I can see he could be checked out is to ask as many old timers as possible, maybe with a photo, even if he was only a cling on, someone is bound to remember him, I was not having a go at you just felt that it was wrong of the Ayatollah to name him on here at the moment.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Oct 14, 2011)

Joe Reilly said:


> But then Steve, according to another good pal of yours, Glen P./Abu/?/none of us, have any 'real working class legacy' do we?



Do you?


----------



## ayatollah (Oct 14, 2011)

Deareg said:


> I don't know him at least I don't think so and I am not doubting your word either, I just think that it is wrong to label him publicly until some attempt has at least been made to verify his story, you are right to be wary and right to warn people privately, the only way that I can see he could be checked out is to ask as many old timers as possible, maybe with a photo, even if he was only a cling on, someone is bound to remember him, I was not having a go at you just felt that it was wrong of the Ayatollah to name him on here at the moment.



I don't really think mentioning a forename is quite a full "naming", except to those close associates who really DO need to check this guy out.
 And anyway Demu has already identified him to his close associates in post 1442:

"Bumped into one of your crew recently when I met up with some activists in Manchester. Fellow by the name of Simon. Claimed he fell out with me 10 years ago. I told him I have never met him, do not recognise him and have certainly not fell out with him.’ I’m a mate of Steve Tilzey and Glen’ he said. 'And I had long hair then.'"

However, anyone creating a completely bogus long term CV and then having the brass cheek to claim long past association with Demu and others to his face is a dangerous guy, as Joe correctly says. If I recall correctly from my conversation with Demu a few months ago about this totally surreal encounter , what the person's surname is, I think you'd all start laughing... nah .... Demu must have been pulling my leg on that one , or I misheard him.

How I wish that in 1980 we who eventually did time after being led up the garden path by a manipulative fantasist/ and/or agent provocateur hanging around the SWP student group at Manchester Poly, had paid a bit more attention to her name... "Michelle MOLE" I kid you not ... big chuckles all round ! Sob.


----------



## Demu (Oct 14, 2011)

Deareg said:


> I don't know him at least I don't think so and I am not doubting your word either, I just think that it is wrong to label him publicly until some attempt has at least been made to verify his story, you are right to be wary and right to warn people privately, the only way that I can see he could be checked out is to ask as many old timers as possible, maybe with a photo, even if he was only a cling on, someone is bound to remember him, I was not having a go at you just felt that it was wrong of the Ayatollah to name him on here at the moment.



I don’t believe he has been named. In fact the converse is true. This guy it would appear is naming activists he did not know or work with, and is placing them into a fabricated construct of his own political history. For what reason?

I can understand someone claiming to know people that perhaps on closer inspection, they don’t really know, but this is markedly different. This fella was adamant that I knew him and that we had been working in the same political arena (presumably AFA) prior to falling out over Dave Hann . He was beseeching me to recognise him, describing how his change in appearance could be playing tricks with my memory, naming Tilzey and Glen as his references. As he was clearly told, ‘long hair, short hair, no hair, I don’t know you and have never worked with you or fell out with you.’ A complete fabrication. 

My only recollection of ever seeing him previously was at Dessy’s funeral.

My question to Tilzey , which over his two follow up posts of bluff, bluster and bullshit he studiously avoided, was whether this was the same person he had in tow at Dessys funeral. I am quite sure that it is.

In casting my mind back to Dessy's funeral, I do recall a somewhat revealing cameo which came into play on the day.

As the funeral cortege turned left down Maitland street, I noticed Steve and Simon on the pavement to my left and a Donal MacIntyre camera crew set further back on the right hand side of the road. As the cortege turned the corner, Steve and Simon entered the cortege and placed themselves immediately in front of the RA contingent. A manoeuvre which I could only presume was for the benefit of the attendant  camera crew. This footage would certainly ‘place’ Simon in the company of some of the people that Simon now claims to have worked with some nine years previous to this.

This was noted at the time as being rather odd, but was seen as Mr T rather than Simon, playing to the cameras.


----------



## bignose1 (Oct 14, 2011)

Demu said:


> I don’t believe he has been named. In fact the converse is true. This guy it would appear is naming activists he did not know or work with, and is placing them into a fabricated construct of his own political history. For what reason?
> 
> I can understand someone claiming to know people that perhaps on closer inspection, they don’t really know, but this is markedly different. This fella was adamant that I knew him and that we had been working in the same political arena (presumably AFA) prior to falling out over Dave Hann . He was beseeching me to recognise him, describing how his change in appearance could be playing tricks with my memory, naming Tilzey and Glen as his references. As he was clearly told, ‘long hair, short hair, no hair, I don’t know you and have never worked with you or fell out with you.’ A complete fabrication.
> 
> ...



You really are a sad fucker Clifford...again your fantasising about me...ah it all fits now...blah...last week I had a shit in Sainsburys...must have been a rendesvous.


----------



## Deareg (Oct 14, 2011)

Demu said:


> I don’t believe he has been named. In fact the converse is true. This guy it would appear is naming activists he did not know or work with, and is placing them into a fabricated construct of his own political history. For what reason?
> 
> I can understand someone claiming to know people that perhaps on closer inspection, they don’t really know, but this is markedly different. This fella was adamant that I knew him and that we had been working in the same political arena (presumably AFA) prior to falling out over Dave Hann . He was beseeching me to recognise him, describing how his change in appearance could be playing tricks with my memory, naming Tilzey and Glen as his references. As he was clearly told, ‘long hair, short hair, no hair, I don’t know you and have never worked with you or fell out with you.’ A complete fabrication.
> 
> ...


Demu, I have no idea about any of that, NR mentioned this fella to me when he was in Ireland a while back, all I was told is that he has approached a couple of people asking them if they remember him from 20 years ago, and neither did, and that you were wary of him, if that is all there is to it, then it seemed to me to be a bit extreme to label him a +++++++ of some sort, I am bowing out of this one now, good luck.


----------



## Demu (Oct 14, 2011)

Deareg said:


> Demu, I have no idea about any of that, NR mentioned this fella to me when he was in Ireland a while back, all I was told is that he has approached a couple of people asking them if they remember him from 20 years ago, and neither did, and that you were wary of him, if that is all there is to it, then it seemed to me to be a bit extreme to label him a ++++++t of some sort, I am bowing out of this one now, good luck.



I haven't labelled him as anything. I do not know him. He has approached me unsolicited and insisted that he knows me.


----------



## Deareg (Oct 14, 2011)

Demu said:


> I haven't labelled him as anything. I do not know him. He has approached me unsolicited and insisted that he knows me.


I was initially talking to the Ayatollah not you.


----------



## ayatollah (Oct 18, 2011)

Deareg said:


> Then do you not think that you should delete the post referring to him?


 
No


----------



## Joe Reilly (Oct 19, 2011)

Divisive Cotton said:


> It's funny reading the fascist reviews of No Retreat on Amazon: http://www.amazon.co.uk/product-rev...?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=0&filterBy=addOneStar



One of the curiosities is that as far as I am aware, apart from Joey Jones, (and that particular thread was first revised and then ended abruptly) no other fascists have offered a view one way of the other. Also on two seperate occassions a thread on Stormfront began and ended within minutes of being put up.

Is there any reason anyone can think of why the opposition, who were perfectly happy to discuss No Retreat - it was even reviewed by a prominent BNP member - have so far expressed no opinion on BTF?


----------



## Red Storm (Oct 19, 2011)

Joe Reilly said:


> One of the curiosities is that as far as I am aware, apart from Joey Jones, (and that particular thread was first revised and then ended abruptly) no other fascists have offered a view one way of the other. Also on two seperate occassions a thread on Stormfront began and ended within minutes of being put up.
> 
> Is there any reason anyone can think of why the opposition, who were perfectly happy to discuss No Retreat - it was even reviewed by a prominent BNP member - have so far expressed no opinion on BTF?



I know of a fairly candid thread on a fash forum on BTF. One min

EDIT:

Mods note. ALWAYS break links such as that.


----------



## love detective (Oct 19, 2011)

that's the one referred to in Joe's post

the thread i started on stormfront about it vanished before it even went up


----------



## Red Storm (Oct 19, 2011)

love detective said:


> that's the one referred to in Joe's post
> 
> the thread i started on stormfront about it vanished before it even went up



Ah right. 

BTW, the posts by Pino (Liam Pinkham) and Souse83 are total bullshit.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Oct 19, 2011)

Joe Reilly said:


> One of the curiosities is that as far as I am aware, apart from Joey Jones, (and that particular thread was first revised and then ended abruptly) no other fascists have offered a view one way of the other. Also on two seperate occassions a thread on Stormfront began and ended within minutes of being put up.
> 
> Is there any reason anyone can think of why the opposition, who were perfectly happy to discuss No Retreat - it was even reviewed by a prominent BNP member - have so far expressed no opinion on BTF?



Sorry that should have read 'Joey _Owens_'.

*Mr Joey Jones, played for Liverpool at left-back, and is not now and never has been a cary carrying member of the BNP or indeed any other white supremacist group or organisation*.

Just thought I'd better make that sufficiently clear - there are enough libel writs (or threats thereof) flying around already!


----------



## ayatollah (Oct 19, 2011)

Though he did have unnatural relations with pigs.

No, no... my mistake ... that was Joey, "Pig fucker" Jones , who played for Everton 1923 to 1933.

Gawd, nearly another big mishtake there ... !


----------



## LiamO (Oct 20, 2011)

I dunno.... you toddle off for a wee voluntary ban and thas soon as your back is turned the kids play up.

Can someone please PM me with some details?


----------



## LiamO (Oct 20, 2011)

Red Storm said:


> BTW, the posts by Pino (Liam Pinkham) and Souse83 are total bullshit.



Can you just confirm this fella is called Pink-HAM and not Pink-MAN.

Ta very much.


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Oct 20, 2011)

LiamO said:


> I dunno.... you toddle off for a wee voluntary ban and thas soon as your back is turned the kids play up.
> 
> Can someone please PM me with some details?



Hi LiamO - the whole thing is still present and correct on here - read from page 47 of this thread onwards to see what's been going on (start from 1/2 way down the thread).


----------



## malatesta32 (Oct 20, 2011)

its pinkham liamO. heres a piece on him:
http://malatesta32.wordpress.com/2010/08/12/gay-nazis-and-deviants-surely-not/
booted out of bnp, he was then edl and is now an 'infidel.' the liverpool lot know more about him!


----------



## LiamO (Oct 20, 2011)

MellySingsDoom said:


> Hi LiamO - the whole thing is still present and correct on here - read from page 47 of this thread onwards to see what's been going on (start from 1/2 way down the thread).



yeah. I get that. I just wondered WHO started crying and threatening legal action. Don't post it up or we might be off on another round...


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Oct 20, 2011)

LiamO said:


> yeah. I get that. I just wondered WHO started crying and threatening legal action. Don't post it up or we might be off on another round...



PM on way


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## Red Storm (Oct 20, 2011)

Pinkham is well known in many circles. I very much doubt it was he who made any legal claims.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 20, 2011)

malatesta32 said:


> its pinkham liamO. heres a piece on him:
> http://malatesta32.wordpress.com/2010/08/12/gay-nazis-and-deviants-surely-not/
> booted out of bnp, he was then edl and is now an 'infidel.' the liverpool lot know more about him!


Sorry mate that piece is terrible. It (unwittingly of course) equates being gay with being a nonce. The by now tired and irrelevant griffin/webster bullshit is not something we should be giving two shits about.There's no need.


----------



## malatesta32 (Oct 20, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Sorry mate that piece is terrible. It (unwittingly of course) equates being gay with being a nonce. The by now tired and irrelevant griffin/webster bullshit is not something we should be giving two shits about.There's no need.



butchers, am hurt! bearing in mind it was written about 3 years ago, fair enough on the griffin but the moat adulation, pinkham, heaton, and the list of sex offenders still points up the massive hypocricy of the far right especially on sexuality. [exits weeping for a proper think!]


----------



## Fedayn (Oct 20, 2011)

No, Joey 'Shithouse' Jones who really did play for Liverpool 1975-1978.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Oct 20, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Sorry mate that piece is terrible. It (unwittingly of course) equates being gay with being a nonce. The by now tired and irrelevant griffin/webster bullshit is not something we should be giving two shits about.There's no need.



Particularly as the original piece was planted in The Observer more than a decade ago by Searchlight.


----------



## Red Storm (Oct 20, 2011)

I've been reading an academic paper called AFA: radical resistance or rent a mob. In the footnotes the author's mention another academic paper: R Aylward and M. Hayes: 'Anti-Fascist Action: An Ethnographic Investigation into an Organisation on the Periphery of Polities', paper presented to PSA (Politics of Law and Order Group) 14 November 1998. The paper was based on research which included extensive interviews and participant observation.

I've not been able to find it anywhere online. Can any help on this one? Did anyone take part?


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Oct 20, 2011)

Red Storm - this is a very long shot, but the PSA in question could be this lot: http://www.psa.ac.uk/Default.aspx

Their e-mail address is: psa@ncl.ac.uk


----------



## malatesta32 (Oct 20, 2011)

Joe Reilly said:


> Particularly as the original piece was planted in The Observer more than a decade ago by Searchlight.



thats only the 1 paragraph. the rest is still relevant.


----------



## malatesta32 (Oct 20, 2011)

Red Storm said:


> I've been reading an academic paper called AFA: radical resistance or rent a mob. In the footnotes the author's mention another academic paper: R Aylward and M. Hayes: 'Anti-Fascist Action: An Ethnographic Investigation into an Organisation on the Periphery of Polities', paper presented to PSA (Politics of Law and Order Group) 14 November 1998. The paper was based on research which included extensive interviews and participant observation.
> 
> I've not been able to find it anywhere online. Can any help on this one? Did anyone take part?



if you get any info, please post it up. never heard of it either.


----------



## past caring (Oct 20, 2011)

Red Storm said:


> I've been reading an academic paper called AFA: radical resistance or rent a mob. In the footnotes the author's mention another academic paper: R Aylward and M. Hayes: 'Anti-Fascist Action: An Ethnographic Investigation into an Organisation on the Periphery of Polities', paper presented to PSA (Politics of Law and Order Group) 14 November 1998. The paper was based on research which included extensive interviews and participant observation.
> 
> I've not been able to find it anywhere online. Can any help on this one? Did anyone take part?



Have you got the book? I'm certain there's a blurb which quotes a Dr Mark Hayes, Senior Lecturer at Southampton Solent University? Got to be the same person, I'd have thought. Maybe a direct approach given that it's a piece of academic work you're doing? The college's faculty page even gives you his e-mail.


----------



## Red Storm (Oct 20, 2011)

Cheers mate! Nah it's not a book, it's a pdf I found. 

http://www.amielandmelburn.org.uk/collections/soundings/14_53.pdf


----------



## past caring (Oct 20, 2011)

Eh? I meant _the book_ - Beating the Fascists - that's where the blurb is. I'm already aware of the pdf you linked to.


----------



## Red Storm (Oct 20, 2011)

past caring said:


> Eh? I meant _the book_ - Beating the Fascists - that's where the blurb is. I'm already aware of the pdf you linked to.



I see, I forget this thread is about BTF. I've not got the book no but I've emailed the guy any how.


----------



## malatesta32 (Oct 20, 2011)

Red Storm said:


> Cheers mate! Nah it's not a book, it's a pdf I found.
> 
> http://www.amielandmelburn.org.uk/collections/soundings/14_53.pdf



thanks loads!


----------



## love detective (Oct 20, 2011)

Mark Hayes (one and the same) is meant to be doing a review of the book sometime for a some kind of journal - as is Nigel Copsey


----------



## malatesta32 (Oct 20, 2011)

just reading o'hara on hepple and he mentions an 'imminent WIA documentary on ... an attempt to equate Red Action and AFA with the IRA.' (at war with the truth, p18). also did they do 2 on C18?


----------



## Joe Reilly (Oct 20, 2011)

malatesta32 said:


> thats only the 1 paragraph. the rest is still relevant.



What do you mean by "1 paragraph"?


----------



## malatesta32 (Oct 20, 2011)

Joe Reilly said:


> What do you mean by "1 paragraph"?



apologies, the griffin thing is only in the 2nd paragraph but the rest is on liverpool bnp and pinkham.  it was posted to clarify this .




Red Storm said: ↑
BTW, the posts by Pino (Liam Pinkham) and Souse83 are total bullshit.​Can you just confirm this fella is called Pink-HAM and not Pink-MAN.​


----------



## malatesta32 (Oct 20, 2011)

Joe Reilly said:


> What do you mean by "1 paragraph"?
> 
> joe, any info on this:
> 'just reading o'hara on hepple and he mentions an 'imminent WIA documentary on ... an attempt to equate Red Action and AFA with the IRA.' (at war with the truth, p18). also did they do 2 on C18?'


----------



## Joe Reilly (Oct 20, 2011)

Isn't that area covered in BTF?


----------



## SpineyNorman (Oct 20, 2011)

I seem to remember WIA did do a documentary on AFA and from what I've been told it was a bit of a hatchet job. Does anyone know where I might find it online by the way?


----------



## Red Storm (Oct 20, 2011)

SpineyNorman said:


> I seem to remember WIA did do a documentary on AFA and from what I've been told it was a bit of a hatchet job. Does anyone know where I might find it online by the way?



I was wondering the same.


----------



## love detective (Oct 20, 2011)

it's covered in the book in the chapter on welling

not sure if it's online anywhere at the moment, but extracts from it will be going up on the BTF site at some point


----------



## Fedayn (Oct 20, 2011)

SpineyNorman said:


> I seem to remember WIA did do a documentary on AFA and from what I've been told it was a bit of a hatchet job. Does anyone know where I might find it online by the way?



It was in the aftermath of the big Welling demo back in October 1993. Both AFA and the YRE 'Away Team' got 'fingered' as 'responsible' for the violence.


----------



## HST (Oct 20, 2011)

I believe this is a clip from that WIA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELbeaP0EZWc
I think it was a year or two after Welling but I may be wrong.


----------



## HST (Oct 20, 2011)

Fedayn said:


> It was in the aftermath of the big Welling demo back in October 1993. Both AFA and the YRE 'Away Team' got 'fingered' as 'responsible' for the violence.



The Away Team were with the millies. YRE were RCP i think.


----------



## Fedayn (Oct 21, 2011)

HST said:


> The Away Team were with the millies. YRE were RCP i think.



No, Militant formed the YRE. The Away Team were YRE/Militant stewards.

The old RCP formed WAR (Workers Against Racism)


----------



## LiamO (Oct 21, 2011)

Fedayn said:


> No, Militant formed the YRE. The Away Team were YRE/Militant stewards.
> 
> The old RCP formed WAR (Workers Against Racism)



or Wankers Always Running as they were known by the Asian kids in Bethnal Green.

WAR has some excellent, committed activists as individuals - and a leadership capable of post-rationalising (in strictly Marxian terms of course) any amount idiocy and downright cowardice. Basically they were all fur coat and no knickers.


----------



## chilango (Oct 21, 2011)

Fedayn said:


> It was in the aftermath of the big Welling demo back in October 1993. Both AFA and the YRE 'Away Team' got 'fingered' as 'responsible' for the violence.



Weren't "Panther" (or was it "Panther UK") targeted in that programme too?


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 21, 2011)

LiamO said:


> or Wankers Always Running as they were known by the Asian kids in Bethnal Green.
> 
> WAR has some excellent, committed activists as individuals - and a leadership capable of post-rationalising (in strictly Marxian terms of course) any amount idiocy and downright cowardice. Basically they were all fur coat and no knickers.


----------



## love detective (Oct 21, 2011)

chilango said:


> Weren't "Panther" (or was it "Panther UK") targeted in that programme too?



yep, both the militant & non-militant wing were included


----------



## chilango (Oct 21, 2011)

Whatever happenned to Panther UK?

(I have vague memories of a thread years and years ago here on this..but I've long forgotten the contents)


----------



## JimW (Oct 21, 2011)

They needed a better PR rep with the doc makers - you'd want to be 'sensible' or 'mainstream', non-militant just makes you sound slack.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Oct 21, 2011)

Fedayn said:


> It was in the aftermath of the big Welling demo back in October 1993. Both AFA and the YRE 'Away Team' got 'fingered' as 'responsible' for the violence.



Actually it was AFA and Red Action, not YRE. Not surprising as Searchlight were, in part at the least, the inspiration.


----------



## Red Storm (Oct 21, 2011)

Fedayn said:


> No, Militant formed the YRE. *The Away Team* were YRE/Militant stewards.
> 
> The old RCP formed WAR (Workers Against Racism)



What's 'The Away Team'?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 21, 2011)

Red Storm said:


> What's 'The Away Team'?



Ex-Militant members could tell you, but they'd have to kill you.


----------



## Red Storm (Oct 21, 2011)

I've noticed that World in Action are available on DVD however neither volumes have a doc on the AFA?


----------



## Fedayn (Oct 21, 2011)

Joe Reilly said:


> Actually it was AFA and Red Action, not YRE. Not surprising as Searchlight were, in part at the least, the inspiration.



Sorry Joe, but you're wrong. A leading member of the Away Team was interviewed in that programme. AFA/RA, YRE and Panther all got fingered. I not only had the programme on video but it was, rather bizarrely since I was in it fleetingly, was used in my then 'Politics in the Media' access course...


----------



## Fedayn (Oct 21, 2011)

love detective said:


> yep, both the militant & non-militant wing were included
> 
> View attachment 14144View attachment 14145



The woman in the top pic was a leading Millie and was (might still be) married to another former leading member of the MT/ML.

The fella in the bottom picture lives in Glasgow and was active in Sheridans Solidarity and various anti-racist groups.


----------



## Fedayn (Oct 21, 2011)

chilango said:


> Weren't "Panther" (or was it "Panther UK") targeted in that programme too?



Yes, I knew a third group were targetted but couldn't remember which.


----------



## Fedayn (Oct 21, 2011)

Red Storm said:


> What's 'The Away Team'?



For want of a better phrase it was a stewards group that came out of YRE/Militant activists and close associates.


----------



## Fedayn (Oct 21, 2011)

Red Storm said:


> I've noticed that World in Action are available on DVD however neither volumes have a doc on the AFA?



If it gives dates look in the programmes made in October/November 1993.


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## Red Storm (Oct 21, 2011)

They seem to be a 'best of'


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## Red Storm (Oct 21, 2011)

http://ftvdb.bfi.org.uk/sift/title/497403


Is this the programme?


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## Fedayn (Oct 21, 2011)

Red Storm said:


> http://ftvdb.bfi.org.uk/sift/title/497403
> 
> Is this the programme?



Looks like it. The demo it refers to however was in October 1993, 16th October to be precise. Is it for sale on there?


----------



## Red Storm (Oct 21, 2011)

I don't think so. The website is terrible, i'm trying to figure out if I can access it some how.


----------



## malatesta32 (Oct 21, 2011)

Red Storm said:


> I've been reading an academic paper called AFA: radical resistance or rent a mob. In the footnotes the author's mention another academic paper: R Aylward and M. Hayes: 'Anti-Fascist Action: An Ethnographic Investigation into an Organisation on the Periphery of Polities', paper presented to PSA (Politics of Law and Order Group) 14 November 1998. The paper was based on research which included extensive interviews and participant observation.
> 
> I've not been able to find it anywhere online. Can any help on this one? Did anyone take part?



red storm, the paper would probably have been given at a conference and may not have been published. i'm assuming that some of the material is replicated in the link here.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Oct 21, 2011)

love detective said:


> yep, both the militant & non-militant wing were includedView attachment 14145



Why is that Russian fella hiding behind the sofa?


----------



## juice_terry (Oct 22, 2011)

HST said:


> I believe this is a clip from that WIA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELbeaP0EZWc
> I think it was a year or two after Welling but I may be wrong.


That was a clip from the Channel Four dispatches


----------



## Joe Reilly (Oct 22, 2011)

Fedayn said:


> Sorry Joe, but you're wrong. A leading member of the Away Team was interviewed in that programme. AFA/RA, YRE and Panther all got fingered. I not only had the programme on video but it was, rather bizarrely since I was in it fleetingly, was used in my then 'Politics in the Media' access course...



Well, it is a while since i saw it, so if YRE were interviewed, then they were. However i don't accept it was wrong to say that RA and AFA were the principle targets. In the immediate aftermath, RA was identified as the instigator of the violence by an 'anti-terrorist expert' on Radio Five live. In the London Evening Standard, in the following week,one article cited Panther and RA as the likely ones to have 'their doors kicked in' any time soon. In another article, on I think, another day, RA is accused 'of hi-jacking AFA', by another of AFA's founding members Unmesh Desai. NMP also described AFA as ' paramilitary'.

Moreover, the WIA programme was merely the culmination of conspiracy to entrap. On the day of the march AFA recieved news that a large body of C18 had assembled at Abbey Wood. The decision was taken that rather than go on the march AFA would confront them there. However the police had other ideas. The refused access to Plumstead station and we were ordered under pain of arrest to attach ourselves to the back of the march. It later emerged that the AFA contingent had already been 'body-mapped'. In other words the SB had already identified their suspects _in advance_,  and having gone to that trouble didn't want them wandering off out of harm's way. As it happens, AFA 'wandered off' anyway. And rather perversely, out of  crowd of 60,000 or so were still spotted by police helicopter and followed even though their colleagues on the ground were otherwise engaged in a full scale riot. An odd use of resources in normal circumstances wouldn't you say?

But given that, as is now widely accepted, it was effectively a riot planned and instigated by police, their actions were entirely logical. As for the WIA programme we had information that it was intended to be a hatchet job, but on balance (better to represent yourself than have others misrepresent you) decided to take part anyway. It took the WIA two hours of interview to try and get the RA and AFA reps to say what they wanted them to say. And they still failed. Incidentally from the off, they did little to hide their hostility or later their frustration at the outcome.

Incidentally, out of curiousity, do you know who contacted the 'Away Team' to take part, why did they agree to do so, and what, apart from what was broadcast, (which was?) was the YRE rep invited to comment on.


----------



## ayatollah (Oct 22, 2011)

Yet another , timely, good example from Joe of the lengths the state will go to entrap Lefties they have a dislike for - as are the recent court cases involving "outed" deep entry cops in various progressive campaigns. I particularly liked the case some time ago of the undercover cop who became a part of a "radical streetclown" (!!) group , for OVER A YEAR ! Mind you there was a state informer in the top circles of CND for over 30 years apparently. And of course the informer Roger Rosewall was on the IS/SWP Central Committee for 20 years or so, part of the time being national industrial organiser.

So the lesson for all activist Lefties as always is "if he/she looks decidedly dodgy, he/she might well be - so take care". Restrained paranoia can be a survival trait.


----------



## Fedayn (Oct 22, 2011)

Joe Reilly said:


> Well, it is a while since i saw it, so if YRE were interviewed, then they were. However i don't accept it was wrong to say that RA and AFA were the principle targets. In the immediate aftermath, RA was identified as the instigator of the violence by an 'anti-terrorist expert' on Radio Five live. In the London Evening Standard, in the following week,one article cited Panther and RA as the likely ones to have 'their doors kicked in' any time soon. In another article, on I think, another day, RA is accused 'of hi-jacking AFA', by another of AFA's founding members Unmesh Desai. NMP also described AFA as ' paramilitary'.
> 
> Moreover, the WIA programme was merely the culmination of conspiracy to entrap. On the day of the march AFA recieved news that a large body of C18 had assembled at Abbey Wood. The decision was taken that rather than go on the march AFA would confront them there. However the police had other ideas. The refused access to Plumstead station and we were ordered under pain of arrest to attach ourselves to the back of the march. It later emerged that the AFA contingent had already been 'body-mapped'. In other words the SB had already identified their suspects _in advance_, and having gone to that trouble didn't want them wandering off out of harm's way. As it happens, AFA 'wandered off' anyway. And rather perversely, out of crowd of 60,000 or so were still spotted by police helicopter and followed even though their colleagues on the ground were otherwise engaged in a full scale riot. An odd use of resources in normal circumstances wouldn't you say?
> 
> ...



I would agree with that Joe, if I remember right AFA/RA were the first people they looked at, also if I remember right, they interviewed an AFA/RA fella-in shadows so as to make his face unrecognisable-which surprised me. It was a programme full of surprises for me.

I remember the aftermath and the stuff re RA/AFA which I found funny given where they were that day. Deffo a fit up job those them. Panther got serious grief after the May 8th demo outside the bookshop too. No coincidence given that demo was far more 'aggressive' than previous demos past there. It was also the only one to the bookshop that the fash didn't attack or feel confident enough to attack. (There were claims they had hundreds in the shop itself but nothing materialised). Plod also got a bit of a slapping that day aswell. I think that was part of the reason for the near military behaviour of the polis on the big demo in October. They had a few agenda's that day from plod.

I deffo agree an odd use of resources yeah, there was obviously pre-concieved headlines and scaremongering going on there. To a lesser extent it happened to YRE/Militant members, as I sad as a result of the May demo.

I honestly don't know who contacted them, I knew the bloke who was interviewed in the 'shadows', I was on-as I said-a college course as was another member of the Militant. We were both a bit surprised at what we saw/heard. I can't really remember what was said by the 'Away Team' fella, if I remember right the YRE 'spokesman'-who's a mate-was given the standard you're as bad as them routine re the violence.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Oct 22, 2011)

ayatollah said:


> Yet another , timely, good example from Joe of the lengths the state will go to entrap Lefties they have a dislike for - as are the recent court cases involving "outed" deep entry cops in various progressive campaigns. I particularly liked the case some time ago of the undercover cop who became a part of a "radical streetclown" (!!) group , for OVER A YEAR ! Mind you there was a state informer in the top circles of CND for over 30 years apparently. And of course the informer Roger Rosewall was on the IS/SWP Central Committee for 20 years or so, part of the time being national industrial organiser.
> 
> So the lesson for all activist Lefties as always is "if he/she looks decidedly dodgy, he/she might well be - so take care". Restrained paranoia can be a survival trait.



Having a undercover cops as part of 'radical streetclown' and also the targetting of totally passive enviromental groups, strikes me as more than a little bizarre and more than a little bit Eastern Bloc.

Is it that there are too many undercover cops to go around?

Or is that the conventional Left is already over-subscribed -or- alternatively being as 'peaceful' by and large 'as a pond full of ducks' is simply not worth bothering about?


----------



## HST (Oct 22, 2011)

The environmental protests of the 80s and 90s really embarrassed the cops as they didn't know wtf was going on. The decision to infiltrate environmental groups may have had more to do with protecting their own image than anything else.


----------



## ayatollah (Oct 22, 2011)

Can't have done much for the "locker room cred" of the undercover cops in the environmental groups can it... swapping "dangerous moments" lads talk ... " yeh well , there's more danger  to knocking up a bender tent than you'd think .... and as for that veggie bean curd salad......

I remember turning up in Manchester in the early 70's for a very minor fracas with a pathetically small march by John Tyndall and his NF chums - in the early days when we tended to hurl insults rather than bricks, and who should scream up in their undercover motor to intercept us, but Manchester Police's very own Starsky and Hutch !.... the outfits they wore, were pure  Starsky and Hutch casual wear (for anyone old enough to remember)... but the car... it was... a Morris Minor. I remember both fascists and anti fascists had to stop proceedings for a moment to have a swift snigger at the unfortunate cop's low budget wheels . Mind you it might have looked a bit cooler with that big white arrow stripe on it ... no, maybe not.


----------



## HST (Oct 22, 2011)

I'm thinking more cred as an organisation than as individuals - imagine Maggie Thatcher here "Well Chief Constable, what can you tell us about these road protesters?" "Um, er, could I have a glass of water?"


----------



## barney_pig (Oct 22, 2011)

Red Storm said:


> I'm going to be studying anti-fascist political violence and it's justification for my final year thesis. Hopefully concentrating on AFA.
> 
> Does anyone know of any good literature or academic works an AFA?


mark hayes has done a bit on this, he is presenting a paper on AFa at Reading University in November, matthew worley is doing some research into fascism and punk in the 1970s and 80s, if I wasn't up to my arse in the 12th century then It would be on my list too.


----------



## audiotech (Oct 23, 2011)

75th Anniversary of the founding of the International Brigades.


----------



## Red Storm (Oct 24, 2011)

Been informed that the World in Action documentary has been archived by the British Film Institute. Seeing if I can get a DVD or video of it now.


----------



## Sean (Oct 24, 2011)

Joe Reilly said:


> Having a undercover cops as part of 'radical streetclown' and also the targetting of totally passive enviromental groups, strikes me as more than a little bizarre and more than a little bit Eastern Bloc.
> 
> Is it that there are too many undercover cops to go around?
> 
> Or is that the conventional Left is already over-subscribed -or- alternatively being as 'peaceful' by and large 'as a pond full of ducks' is simply not worth bothering about?



Having seen the thing about the prominence of van drivers among the ranks of undercover plod, I idly googled a certain van driver from the Hackney area who disappeared in mysterious circumstances a decade ago (at the time that street activities were clearly changing into above board legit political campaigning) and wasn't surprised to see an interesting indymedia post about him from Feb this year.

Now their MO might be too obvious (and the Low Emission Zone is set to play havoc with their vans) what's their next tactic? Skateboards?


----------



## TopCat (Oct 24, 2011)

Joe Reilly said:


> Having a undercover cops as part of 'radical streetclown' and also the targetting of totally passive enviromental groups, strikes me as more than a little bizarre and more than a little bit Eastern Bloc.
> 
> Is it that there are too many undercover cops to go around?
> 
> Or is that the conventional Left is already over-subscribed -or- alternatively being as 'peaceful' by and large 'as a pond full of ducks' is simply not worth bothering about?


Did you think RA came out of all this unscathed? Not digging you but seriously?


----------



## TopCat (Oct 24, 2011)

Fedayn said:


> I would agree with that Joe, if I remember right AFA/RA were the first people they looked at, also if I remember right, they interviewed an AFA/RA fella-in shadows so as to make his face unrecognisable-which surprised me. It was a programme full of surprises for me.
> 
> I remember the aftermath and the stuff re RA/AFA which I found funny given where they were that day. Deffo a fit up job those them. Panther got serious grief after the May 8th demo outside the bookshop too. No coincidence given that demo was far more 'aggressive' than previous demos past there. It was also the only one to the bookshop that the fash didn't attack or feel confident enough to attack. (There were claims they had hundreds in the shop itself but nothing materialised). Plod also got a bit of a slapping that day aswell. I think that was part of the reason for the near military behaviour of the polis on the big demo in October. They had a few agenda's that day from plod.
> 
> ...



"Joe" you never shared this level of knowledge but always cunted us off for being mugs?


----------



## Fedayn (Oct 24, 2011)




----------



## TopCat (Oct 24, 2011)

Ok, let me articulate myself better. "joe" gives this stuff a LOT of thought, consideration and shares fuck at the time but then cunts everyone off for not doing the right thing?


----------



## Fedayn (Oct 24, 2011)

Aaah right, I get what you're meaning.


----------



## LiamO (Oct 24, 2011)

Fedayn said:


> Aaah right, I get what you're meaning.



I don't. Expand and explain please TC.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 24, 2011)

Ah give me a break, I will elucidate at length in the next few days.


----------



## LiamO (Oct 25, 2011)

TopCat said:


> Ah give me a break, I will elucidate at length in the next few days.


 please do. I am off for a wee  self-imposed exile and will read it on my return


----------



## Joe Reilly (Oct 27, 2011)

TopCat said:


> Did you think RA came out of all this unscathed? Not digging you but seriously?



If you what mean by 'unscathed' was directly infiltrated - hard to say.   But if you mean  negatively influenced as a result of said infiltration, there is certainly no evidence of it - either in terms of policy forming or operationally. Part of the reason may be, that contrary to rumour RA was stridently democratic. Built from the bottom up. It follows therefore that that is where you have to enlist. And work your way up. AFA post re-launch in 1989, adopted a similar set up. Individuals, branches, regions, national. Both bottom up and a genuine meritocracy. In other words to impact policy nationally it would be necessary to convince everybody - or at least a majority. IOf course no system's perfect, but it mitigated against someone being recruited and appointed top down to a middle management position and beavering away unnoticed from there.


----------



## Red Storm (Nov 7, 2011)

I'm waiting for a quote from ITN to be able to have a personal copy of the WiA documentary 'Violence with Violence'. Don't know how expensive it will be yet.


----------



## Red Storm (Nov 7, 2011)

http://www.itnsource.com/shotlist//...9920912014/?s="anti-fascist+action"&st=1&pn=1

Costs near £200 just for that 1min clip of the battle of waterloo station.


----------



## krink (Nov 7, 2011)

Red Storm said:


> http://www.itnsource.com/shotlist//Channel9/1992/09/12/CNINE19920912014/?s="anti-fascist action"&st=1&pn=1
> 
> Costs near £200 just for that 1min clip of the battle of waterloo station.



fuck me, it'd be easier to just get everyone together again and shoot it ourselves!!


----------



## laptop (Nov 7, 2011)

Red Storm said:


> http://www.itnsource.com/shotlist//Channel9/1992/09/12/CNINE19920912014/?s="anti-fascist action"&st=1&pn=1
> 
> Costs near £200 just for that 1min clip of the battle of waterloo station.



Um, that'd not be for a copy, that'd be for a licence to re-broadcast the clip as part of a new telly program, no?


----------



## articul8 (Nov 7, 2011)

krink said:


> fuck me, it'd be easier to just get everyone together again and shoot it ourselves!!


get Jeremy Deller to do a repro like wot he did with Orgreave


----------



## Red Storm (Nov 7, 2011)

laptop said:


> Um, that'd not be for a copy, that'd be for a licence to re-broadcast the clip as part of a new telly program, no?






			
				ITN said:
			
		

> Thank you for your enquiry
> 
> To supply the following clip on a DVD or as a download will cost £170 + VAT. Please note the DVD will have a burnt in time code on screen and the download will be low res


----------



## Red Storm (Nov 7, 2011)

Whats the score on David Renton. Seen that he's wrote a lot of anti-fascist stuff. Is he a swoppo?


----------



## articul8 (Nov 7, 2011)

Red Storm said:


> Whats the score on David Renton. Seen that he's wrote a lot of anti-fascist stuff. Is he a swoppo?


ex-swap.  But fellow traveller.


----------



## laptop (Nov 7, 2011)

ITN said:


> £170+ VAT.



Blimey. That's some search fee.

Wonder whether the British Film Institute has it to view in the building?


----------



## Red Storm (Nov 7, 2011)

laptop said:


> Blimey. That's some search fee.
> 
> Wonder whether the British Film Institute has it to view in the building?



I doubt they have that news clip. But they do have the World in Action doc. It's around £15 to view.


----------



## krink (Nov 7, 2011)

crazy money. someone must have it on vhs somewhere...


----------



## Red Storm (Nov 7, 2011)

Well if it's near £200 for a 1 min 7 sec clip how much is it for the WiA documentary! I've had to email a different department for that and it takes 14 days to get a reply.


----------



## love detective (Nov 7, 2011)

we have it (the WIA documentary) converted to digital in an archive of stuff, plus the various news articles referred to - will go up on the BTF site at some point once various bits have been used from them to do a promo video


----------



## imposs1904 (Nov 7, 2011)

love detective said:


> we have it (the WIA documentary) converted to digital in an archive of stuff, plus the various news articles referred to - will go up on the BTF site at some point once various bits have been used from them to do a promo video



Might be an idea to also put it on a few of the bit torrent sites devoted to British and/or radical politics.*

*Thinking of The Box and ChomskyTorrents.


----------



## Red Storm (Nov 7, 2011)

love detective said:


> we have it (the WIA documentary) converted to digital in an archive of stuff, plus the various news articles referred to - will go up on the BTF site at some point once various bits have been used from them to do a promo video



How long until it goes up do you reckon?


----------



## Red Storm (Nov 8, 2011)

On the topic of was Red Action infiltrated. I saw an old Guardian article which mentions that Red Action is controlled by MI5 and Special Branch. Later articles don't say this however.


----------



## Deareg (Nov 8, 2011)

Red Storm said:


> On the topic of was Red Action infiltrated. I saw an old Guardian article which mentions that Red Action is controlled by MI5 and Special Branch. Later articles don't say this however.


Have you got a link for this?


----------



## Red Storm (Nov 8, 2011)

Deareg said:


> Have you got a link for this?



No link as it's from their archive so you need access. I'll find it again later and screen shot it.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Nov 8, 2011)

Red Storm said:


> On the topic of was Red Action infiltrated. I saw an old Guardian article which mentions that Red Action is controlled by MI5 and Special Branch. Later articles don't say this however.



What 'later articles' are you referring to?


----------



## Red Storm (Nov 9, 2011)

Joe Reilly said:


> What 'later articles' are you referring to?



Ones older than the one that said they were controlled by MI5 and Special Branch.


----------



## Red Storm (Nov 9, 2011)

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/72/captureauy.png/

Image of the claim. On second reading it could be read that Busby is claiming that Red Action is MI5 controlled.


----------



## Deareg (Nov 9, 2011)

Red Storm said:


> http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/72/captureauy.png/
> 
> Image of the claim. On second reading it could be read that Busby is claiming that Red Action is MI5 controlled.


Busby is a fucking headcase mate, he lives in his own fantasy world.


----------



## The39thStep (Nov 9, 2011)

Red Storm said:


> http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/72/captureauy.png/
> 
> Image of the claim. On second reading it could be read that Busby is claiming that Red Action is MI5 controlled.



Bit of an old chestnut this.


----------



## Red Storm (Nov 9, 2011)

It was a weird story. 

I found a good letter to the guardian from the NF national secretary about turning red action over. I'll do a screen shot soon


----------



## love detective (Nov 9, 2011)

Rather snooty & academically snobbish (almost horrified) review of the book from Professor Nigel Copsey here (pages 11 & 12)


----------



## The39thStep (Nov 9, 2011)

love detective said:


> Rather snooty & academically snobbish (almost horrified) review of the book from Professor Nigel Copsey here (pages 11 & 12)



The book has clipped his wings in his aspired role as the unoficial historian of anti fascism


----------



## belboid (Nov 9, 2011)

Do you think he actually read all of it? A bit odd that the quotes come from pages 23, 23, 23, 25, 25 and then 397 and 403! Were the intervening 372 pages entirely unworthy of comment?


----------



## love detective (Nov 9, 2011)

obviously the intermediate pages were too 'close to hoolie literarture for comfort' for an academic distanced from his topic

I read it a few times now, and still can't work out the logic used for his rubbishing of the book's point about him being wrong and AFA being right about the electoral breakthrough of the BNP

So even though back then at the time he completely dismissed it as a possibility and AFA predicted it - and then a decade later it happened - he's somehow still correct in what he said back then because even though something he said would not happen, did happen, it might not have happened. And also according to him he was correct to predict that it wouldn't happen because at the time it didn't seem obvious (to him) that it would happen - you would have thought in this context (i.e it not seeming obvious to him) he would have afforded more respect to the prescience of AFA's analysis - rather than attempt to rubbish it, even though it's as a clear as day whose analysis was left wanting

As 39th Step says, he doesn't seem to pleased at the entrance of this book into the academic world and seems intent on dismissing its contribution either intellectually, academically or otherwise

edit: also shows the huge distance from reality that academics inhabit - his justification for his dismissing of the prospect of an electoral breakthrough for the BNP was that at the time in 1998/1999 Tyndal was still in control, but it shows how little the developments both within the BNP over the 6 years or so prior plus the emergence of new labour etc. had completely passed him by (or at least didn't form any input to his analysis of the direction the BNP was going in and the opportunities that were opening up for it)


----------



## Red Storm (Nov 9, 2011)

He does seem pissed off and snobbish about someone he perceives to be not at his academic level entering his academic arena. 

At least he does concede some things in his last paragraph.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Nov 9, 2011)

Red Storm said:


> http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/72/captureauy.png/
> 
> Image of the claim. On second reading it could be read that Busby is claiming that Red Action is MI5 controlled.



Yeah and when he sent RA a parcel bomb he probabaly recorded it as yet another succesful attack on the state


----------



## Joe Reilly (Nov 9, 2011)

belboid said:


> Do you think he actually read all of it? A bit odd that the quotes come from pages 23, 23, 23, 25, 25 and then 397 and 403! Were the intervening 372 pages entirely unworthy of comment?



It is indeed like he just read the introduction and conclusion.


----------



## cogg (Nov 9, 2011)

Joe Reilly said:


> It is indeed like he just read the introduction and conclusion.


Copsey also writes in that review that he wanted to interview AFA for his book but he was told he would have to pay. This of course isn't true. I met Copsey at the library I worked at, just after his book came out . He told me then that he'd written to AFA but hadn't had a reply. Funnily enough, no-one in AFA had any recollection of a letter from him.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 9, 2011)

cogg said:


> Copsey also writes in that review that he wanted to interview AFA for his book but he was told he would have to pay. This of course isn't true. I met Copsey at the library I worked at, just after his book came out . He told me then that he'd written to AFA but hadn't had a reply. Funnily enough, no-one in AFA had any recollection of a letter from him.


people i've known wrote several times to afa to find out about joining but received no reply. maybe copsey did send a letter, maybe he didn't, but not everyone who got in touch with afa got a reply.


----------



## cogg (Nov 10, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> people i've known wrote several times to afa to find out about joining but received no reply. maybe copsey did send a letter, maybe he didn't, but not everyone who got in touch with afa got a reply.


Same thing happened to me but it wasn't because AFA was ignoring letters. There was also the matter of the state interfering with the mail.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Nov 10, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> people i've known wrote several times to afa to find out about joining but received no reply. maybe copsey did send a letter, maybe he didn't, but not everyone who got in touch with afa got a reply.



Maybe so, but not recieving a reply, is not how he explains his failure to interview AFA for his book, in his review of BTF.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 10, 2011)

Joe Reilly said:


> Maybe so, but not recieving a reply, is not how he explains his failure to interview AFA for his book, in his review of BTF.


i was mainly replying to the last two sentences of cogg's post


----------



## co-op (Nov 10, 2011)

Joe Reilly said:


> Maybe so, but not recieving a reply, is not how he explains his failure to interview AFA for his book, in his review of BTF.



Maybe it was SB who wrote back asking for money? 

/paranoid mode


----------



## malatesta32 (Nov 10, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> people i've known wrote several times to afa to find out about joining but received no reply. maybe copsey did send a letter, maybe he didn't, but not everyone who got in touch with afa got a reply.



well it aint hard it is? just come on ere and pm folk. i did! as for reviews doing intro and outro, usual format im afraid, the academic short cut has always been' read the intro and conclusion then photocopy the biblio! as for his hoolie' fear, the first person accounts are oral history, from people who were there and whose input is essential. 'how it was.' you dont get this kind of shoddy reviews from the malatestas!


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 10, 2011)

malatesta32 said:


> well it aint hard it is? just come on ere and pm folk. i did!


i don't know when copsey tried - or says he tried - to contact afa. i'm thinking of back in the early 90s when there was no such thing as the internet as we know and love it today.


----------



## Red Storm (Nov 10, 2011)

If he really wanted to surely he'd have been able to get an interview. Unless AFA didn't want to give him an interview for what ever reason.


----------



## Sue (Nov 10, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> i don't know when copsey tried - or says he tried - to contact afa. i'm thinking of back in the early 90s when there was no such thing as the internet as we know and love it today.


And cogg, an AFA person, met him so he obviously did make contact with AFA. And no money was asked for. Which means Copsey's claim about that is bollocks.


----------



## malatesta32 (Nov 12, 2011)

despite their, at times faulty analyses, copsey, renton et al, never use first person accounts like in BtF. they recycle stuff from other sources. the testimonies of those on the cobbles always needs to be documented.


----------



## krink (Nov 16, 2011)

I was watching this riot documentary earlier and about 6 minutes in up pops Alec McFaddon with a copy of the Morning Star in his hands! Apparently he works with something called Salford Prison Project now but he was one of the main people in TWAFA who were, as far as I recall, the north east bit of Searchlight. They don't get much of a mention in BTF but I was wondering if anyone knew the extent to which TWAFA was involved with Searchlight? I was involved with the short-lived, yet pretty fucking awesome, North East AFA but I was not really fully aware of the issues around Searchlight at the time.

I wasn't a major player as I'm not a good fighter, unlike some of the other comrades who gave very good accounts of themselves on several occasions but I did do stuff like write reports of our benefit gigs in FT and letters to local press etc.

I actually wrote a couple of times to the Sunderland fanzine 'A Love Supreme' but they never published anything at all or even send a reply and I often wondred if it was because the editor was also Alec McFaddon's son. I just want to make it clear I've got no evidence of this and it's pure idle speculation on my part.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Nov 16, 2011)

I would say TWAFA involvement with Searchlight has reduced in recent years, theres no denying they work closely with the police, TUC, and local authorities though.


----------



## krink (Nov 16, 2011)

Is twafa still going spanky?


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Nov 16, 2011)

Yes, still got a full time staff member as well


----------



## krink (Nov 16, 2011)

wow, i'm quite surprised by that, thought it would have been long gone!


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Nov 16, 2011)

The last article from their website is 2009 but I can assure you I saw their full timer just a couple of months ago


----------



## krink (Nov 16, 2011)

that must be one cushy little job!


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Nov 16, 2011)

Shit pay to be fair


----------



## past caring (Nov 17, 2011)

Better than bumping on though, eh? More to the point, who pays for the full-timer?


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Nov 17, 2011)

past caring said:


> Better than bumping on though, eh? More to the point, who pays for the full-timer?



Local TUs, and local authorities.


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## Red Storm (Nov 17, 2011)

http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/tyne_and_wear_anti_fascist_assoc_6

FOI on TWAFA


----------



## krink (Nov 17, 2011)

yeah saw those when i was googling about twafa last night. looks like the local fash trying to cause trouble for twafa.


----------



## love detective (Nov 26, 2011)

Red Storm said:


> I've been reading an academic paper called AFA: radical resistance or rent a mob. In the footnotes the author's mention another academic paper: R Aylward and M. Hayes: 'Anti-Fascist Action: An Ethnographic Investigation into an Organisation on the Periphery of Polities', paper presented to PSA (Politics of Law and Order Group) 14 November 1998. The paper was based on research which included extensive interviews and participant observation.
> 
> I've not been able to find it anywhere online. Can any help on this one? Did anyone take part?



Did you get a copy of it from Mark? Apparently been quite a few requests for it to him lately

He also presented a new paper on RA/AFA at Reading University Wednesday past called 'Red Action, Anti-Fascist action and the BNP:The Practical Dynamics of Reaction and Resistance 1986-1994'


----------



## Red Storm (Nov 26, 2011)

I spoke to the one who is in Southampton but he didn't have it. Emailed the one who's now in Australia and he's never replied.


----------



## malatesta32 (Nov 29, 2011)

this is a blood and honour link but it has got some cracking pix from waterloo - along with the 'facts' that they won!
http://www. bloodandhonourworldwide.co.uk/history/waterloo.html

<link broken - FM>


----------



## Red Storm (Nov 29, 2011)

malatesta32 said:


> this is a blood and honour link but it has got some cracking pix from waterloo - along with the 'facts' that they won!
> http://www. bloodandhonourworldwide.co.uk/history/waterloo.html



Cheers that that link.

People always whinge about linking far-right websites. They'll probably ask you to break the link.


----------



## The Black Hand (Nov 29, 2011)

love detective
Rather snooty & academically snobbish (almost horrified) review of the book from Professor Nigel Copsey here (pages 11 & 12)​


The39thStep said:


> The book has clipped his wings in his aspired role as the unoficial historian of anti fascism



To be honest I do not think that the review was a bad one, and you cannot read anything into it beyond whats there with any certainty at all. I think he points out that the cliche hooligan genre, i did this i did that this happened that happened etc does not (often, if at all) provide substantive theory.

I am not Copseys groupie btw, but I wouldn't read anything into that style of writing, it looks standard academic review to me. He could do a hatchet job, but that review wasn't it.

And I say this as a fan of Class War and Ian Bone.


----------



## malatesta32 (Nov 29, 2011)

BH, i think the main testament is to how many its sold and that the feedback from antifascists has been very positive! of course copsey's not going to overtly endorse violent antifascism really is he? as well as a good read and the definitive account (so far) of AFA BtF is also full of first person accounts from people who were actually there which a lot of books on anti/fascism seem to lack!


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 29, 2011)

I don't think it would matter if the book had only sold 66 copies, it would still be a bloody good book.


----------



## malatesta32 (Nov 29, 2011)

hello pickmans! indeed it is and i slightly regret not being more enthusiastic in my review! i have read it half a dozen times at least!
http://malatesta32.wordpress.com/2010/10/31/beating-the-fascists-review/


----------



## Red Storm (Nov 29, 2011)

You must really love wordpress stats malatesta


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Nov 29, 2011)

Red Storm said:


> Cheers that that link.
> 
> People always whinge about linking far-right websites. They'll probably ask you to break the link.


Yes. I have to break yours now too. Kindly don't.


----------



## malatesta32 (Nov 29, 2011)

i posted the link because it has some excellent pix of wtaerloo. there is a serious shortage of images from these things as folk didnt have cheap digital cameras then. apologies for breach of protocol but hopefully folk know where the shots are now. m@l


----------



## Red Storm (Nov 29, 2011)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Yes. I have to break yours now too. Kindly don't.



My link?


----------



## The Black Hand (Nov 29, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> I don't think it would matter if the book had only sold 66 copies, it would still be a bloody good book.


Just for interest I had a copy of this Anti Fascist book prominently displayed for three days at this; http://raiseyourbanners.org/index.php?page=RYB-2011

A few people looked at it, one person enquired, but baulked at the £15 cover price and the reduced £12 I offered it at.

i sold several books on fascism and the nazis, and of course around 25 copies of the Autonomous Anti Fascism pamphlet produced a while back (currently in its 2nd edition).

I sold a few copies of Ian Bones book at the event (4) which also had a prominent display, 70 copies of the Class War Poll Tax 20th anniversary paper were distributed, and lots of other things


----------



## malatesta32 (Nov 29, 2011)

it was initially a tenner! but i still think its worth 15. whats the Autonomous Anti Fascism pamphlet? is it the liverpool afa one?


----------



## Random (Nov 29, 2011)

How many has the book sold so far? Still not bought it myself, I'm afraid.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Nov 29, 2011)

Random said:


> Still not bought it myself, I'm afraid.



TREACHEROUS RUNNING DOG.


----------



## Red Storm (Nov 29, 2011)

You can buy it on amazon cheap.


----------



## krink (Nov 29, 2011)

it's worth 15 i'd say.


----------



## love detective (Nov 29, 2011)

The £15 price is only really for mail order sales to cover the cost of the postage (which is just under £4 a book)


----------



## gawkrodger (Nov 29, 2011)

can someone stick up the waterloo blood and honour link (broken) again please. Want to look at the piccies!


----------



## past caring (Nov 29, 2011)

It's still there in post 1605 and quoted in post 1606.


----------



## gawkrodger (Nov 29, 2011)

ah, doesn't show when I'm not logged in. i look like a numpty now!


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## malatesta32 (Nov 29, 2011)

tap in AFA battle of waterloo then go to blood and honour website. (oddly, both nazi and tabs B&H are toxic brands). there are some very 'enthusiastic' antifascists on there particularly the feller with the gegs and the blue top. amusing!


----------



## The Black Hand (Nov 29, 2011)

malatesta32 said:


> it was initially a tenner! but i still think its worth 15. whats the Autonomous Anti Fascism pamphlet? is it the liverpool afa one?


Here's a link to the launch article about the pamphlet on Indymedia, and there's a shite sectarian comment from 'scooby' added after it had fallen from the front page. http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2010/03/446872.html?c=on#c243929

If you want a copy then PM me please.


----------



## malatesta32 (Nov 30, 2011)

Fedayn said:


>



Fedayn, you mentioned on
http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/placing-red-action-then-the-iwca-theorethically.190699/page-5
that you were involved in the Militant Away Team. you got any info on that? anyone?


----------



## love detective (Nov 30, 2011)

scan here of an article in Red Pepper based on a much lengthier interview

It kind of lacks the punch (and structure) of the full interview - although the whole transcript is due to go up on the RP site at some point (or elsewhere if not there)


----------



## malatesta32 (Nov 30, 2011)

e


love detective said:


> scan here of an article in Red Pepper based on a much lengthier interview
> 
> It kind of lacks the punch (and structure) of the full interview - although the whole transcript is due to go up on the RP site at some point (or elsewhere if not there)



excellent, thanks for that LD! did you clock the waterloo pix mentioned earlier up there ^ ? good stuff, bad website!


----------



## malatesta32 (Dec 4, 2011)




----------



## malatesta32 (Dec 4, 2011)

from battle of waterloo, 1992. so you dont have to go to nasty sites!


----------



## malatesta32 (Dec 4, 2011)

in matthew collins' hate he quotes someone saying red action 'look like us, talk like us.' a case in point here. if anyone can say whose side some folk are on that wd be pretty helpful esp regarding skins. the bloodied skin is gary mitchell (as sen in white noise).


----------



## Deareg (Dec 4, 2011)

In picture 5 the tall fella with his back to the camera is G McD who was a RA member at the time, you can just make him out in the middle of pic 4 as well.


----------



## malatesta32 (Dec 4, 2011)

i think yer man next to him in 5 is on the cover of BtF.


----------



## malatesta32 (Dec 4, 2011)

gawkrodger said:


> can someone stick up the waterloo blood and honour link (broken) again please. Want to look at the piccies!


check up there ^


----------



## Deareg (Dec 4, 2011)

malatesta32 said:


> i think yer man next to him in 5 is on the cover of BtF.


It looks EM, but am not sure, I will be ringing G later so will ask him who was with him that day.


----------



## Fedayn (Dec 4, 2011)

Deareg said:


> In picture 5 the tall fella with his back to the camera is G McD who was a RA member at the time, you can just make him out in the middle of pic 4 as well.



That image, both from the front and back is one of the most used images of that day.


----------



## malatesta32 (Dec 4, 2011)

i am using pic 7 on the malatesta blog and i am assuming the feller centre stage is 'not one of ours.'

http://malatesta32.wordpress.com/


----------



## malatesta32 (Dec 4, 2011)

The Black Hand said:


> Here's a link to the launch article about the pamphlet on Indymedia, and there's a shite sectarian comment from 'scooby' added after it had fallen from the front page. http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2010/03/446872.html?c=on#c243929
> 
> If you want a copy then PM me please.



is it online anywhere mate?


----------



## malatesta32 (Dec 4, 2011)

Fedayn said:


> That image, both from the front and back is one of the most used images of that day.


it has a bit of the 'attack of the skinhead zombies' about it!


----------



## The Black Hand (Dec 13, 2011)

malatesta32 said:


> is it online anywhere mate?


no, our website has been hacked. One of the articles was published in Mayday issue 4 originally - "Only the realists are out of touch with humanity - Marxist Humanism, E. P. Thompson,  & Popular Front Anti Fascism" Press released here; http://mayday-magazine.vpweb.co.uk/  but no article I am afraid. You need hard copy for that. There maybe copies of the anti fascist pamphlet at Freedom and/or Housmans still (i haven't checked recently).

Andy newmans article British fascism past and present is here; http://www.socialistunity.com/?p=5293

Autonomous Anti Fascism is in the magazine here; http://platypus1917.home.comcast.net/~platypus1917/mayday_uk_issue1_win2007-08.pdf


----------



## krink (Dec 13, 2011)

bloody faced number 3 from sunderland. in the footage I saw ages ago another one from sunderland get's knocked on his arse too.


----------



## krink (Dec 13, 2011)

Him there on the floor with the sheepish look, that's him after getting knocked down with 1 punch


----------



## Red O (Dec 15, 2011)

Paul Krugman in the NY Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/12/opinion/krugman-depression-and-democracy.html?_r=1&ref=paulkrugman):

'Right-wing populists are on the rise from Austria, where the Freedom Party (whose leader used to have neo-Nazi connections) runs neck-and-neck in the polls with established parties, to Finland, where the anti-immigrant True Finns party had a strong electoral showing last April. And these are rich countries whose economies have held up fairly well. Matters look even more ominous in the poorer nations of Central and Eastern Europe.

'Last month the European Bank for Reconstruction and Development documented a sharp drop in public support for democracy in the “new E.U.” countries, the nations that joined the European Union after the fall of the Berlin Wall. Not surprisingly, the loss of faith in democracy has been greatest in the countries that suffered the deepest economic slumps.

'And in at least one nation, Hungary, democratic institutions are being undermined as we speak.

'One of Hungary’s major parties, Jobbik, is a nightmare out of the 1930s: it’s anti-Roma (Gypsy), it’s anti-Semitic, and it even had a paramilitary arm. But the immediate threat comes from Fidesz, the governing center-right party.

'Fidesz won an overwhelming Parliamentary majority last year, at least partly for economic reasons; Hungary isn’t on the euro, but it suffered severely because of large-scale borrowing in foreign currencies and also, to be frank, thanks to mismanagement and corruption on the part of the then-governing left-liberal parties. Now Fidesz, which rammed through a new Constitution last spring on a party-line vote, seems bent on establishing a permanent hold on power.

'Taken together, all this amounts to the re-establishment of authoritarian rule, under a paper-thin veneer of democracy, in the heart of Europe. And it’s a sample of what may happen much more widely if this depression continues.'


----------



## TopCat (Dec 15, 2011)

Deareg said:


> In picture 5 the tall fella with his back to the camera is G McD who was a RA member at the time, you can just make him out in the middle of pic 4 as well.


You could never doubt the balls on that man.


----------



## Deareg (Dec 15, 2011)

TopCat said:


> You could never doubt the balls on that man.


I never admit that to him though, I tell him that he burst into tears when he saw them coming.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 15, 2011)

I remember the same man leaping across the counter at Kings Cross Burger King to get at the NF colour party. Fucking top bloke.


----------



## discokermit (Dec 15, 2011)

malatesta32 said:


> View attachment 15127


the bloke on the far left of the pic is the best dressed and looks a bit of a dude. he isn't a nazi is he? i hope not.


----------



## krink (Dec 15, 2011)

the skinhead lad with his right arm extended (no, not _that_ way)? He was afa as far as I know as his face is blanked out in FT.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Dec 15, 2011)

Red O said:


> Paul Krugman in the NY Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/12/opinion/krugman-depression-and-democracy.html?_r=1&ref=paulkrugman):
> 
> 'Right-wing populists are on the rise from Austria, where the Freedom Party (whose leader used to have neo-Nazi connections) runs neck-and-neck in the polls with established parties, to Finland, where the anti-immigrant True Finns party had a strong electoral showing last April. And these are rich countries whose economies have held up fairly well. Matters look even more ominous in the poorer nations of Central and Eastern Europe.
> 
> ...



The number of people not on the voting register in Britian has risen by almost 5 million in just 10 years.


----------



## BlackArab (Dec 15, 2011)

I would happily spend my last tenner on buying drinks for the two anti-fash in pics 4 & 5. Respect to those who were there!


----------



## Nigel (Dec 18, 2011)

Deareg said:


> It looks EM, but am not sure, I will be ringing G later so will ask him who was with him that day.


Wasn't heon the cover of at least one copy of Red Action decking a fascist.


----------



## malatesta32 (Dec 20, 2011)

krink said:


> the skinhead lad with his right arm extended (no, not _that_ way)? He was afa as far as I know as his face is blanked out in FT.



i have always been puzzled by the act of putting a black strip across someone's eyes to 'protect their identity' because it clearly doesnt! its a great pic anyway!


----------



## Deareg (Dec 20, 2011)

Nigel said:


> Wasn't heon the cover of at least one copy of Red Action decking a fascist.


Not sure.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Dec 21, 2011)

Deareg said:


> Not sure.



The photo in question is also in BTF - objectively - a far more intimidating character.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Dec 21, 2011)

Last August myself and another contributor, Butchers I think, made a prediction on here, that one of the fall outs of the August riots would in the long run prove a boon for the far-right as a whole. I suggsted that repatriation in a veiled way may even resurface. I can't help feeling that the conviction of Suarez, the charging of Terry, comments by Starkey, Cleese, George Orwell's biographer, and Lionel Shriver are all part of that same dance?

Or is it just coincidence, that sense then certian public individuals feel licensed to say in public what they either think or say in private?


----------



## Deareg (Dec 21, 2011)

Joe Reilly said:


> The photo in question is also in BTF - objectively - a far more intimidating character.


Don't recognise him then, EM was a bit of a guess.


----------



## ayatollah (Dec 21, 2011)

Joe Reilly said:


> Last August myself and another contributor, Butchers I think, made a prediction on here, that one of the fall outs of the August riots would in the long run prove a boon for the far-right as a whole. I suggsted that repatriation in a veiled way may even resurface. I can't help feeling that the conviction of Suarez, the charging of Terry, comments by Starkey, Cleese, George Orwell's biographer, and Lionel Shriver are all part of that same dance?
> 
> Or is it just coincidence, that sense then certian public individuals feel licensed to say in public what they either think or say in private?



I think you're right ,Joe. I'm also a bit surprised the Far Right aren't being a bit more pushy on the anti "Finance Capital" front too. Since this division into "healthy" manufacturing business versus "parasitic" Finance capital has always been a big element of Nazism - and would certainly cut with the public mood grain. Maybe they are -- but I'm not up to speed on current fascist propaganda output. I could see them trying to join in with "Occupy The City" type events with their own agendas. Maybe their current submerging of anti semitism under all the anti Islamic stuff makes it a bit difficult to bring this old but perennially popular "Jewish Banker conspiracy" stuff out of the cupboard. Unlucky for them most of the high profile banker bandits are Scottish ! I'm sure that in private the Far Right must see the current crisis as a rerun of the thirties "Jewish financial conspiracy" stuff.

Next round of riots and all sorts of nasty establishment licensed xenophobic stuff will no doubt pour out of the gobs of various Right wing "celebrities" (and live fire from the cops too maybe ?)

The Head of the European Central Bank (cheerfully) says the strain of first quarter loan repayments of Eurodebt in 2012 could tip the Eurozone (and so the global economy) over the edge - so it could be a very nasty year economically and politically.

Merry Christmas


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Dec 21, 2011)

ayatollah - a mate of mine confirmed recently that some of the David Icke brigade were trying to "charm" their way into Occupy St Pauls and Finsbury Square, so you're not far off at all with your analysis...


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Dec 21, 2011)

There's a lot of far right types who post with complete impunity on the Icke forums anyway.


----------



## Blagsta (Dec 21, 2011)

ayatollah said:


> I think you're right ,Joe. *I'm also a bit surprised the Far Right aren't being a bit more pushy on the anti "Finance Capital" front too. Since this division into "healthy" manufacturing business versus "parasitic" Finance capital has always been a big element of Nazism - and would certainly cut with the public mood grain. Maybe they are -- but I'm not up to speed on current fascist propaganda output*. I could see them trying to join in with "Occupy The City" type events with their own agendas. Maybe their current submerging of anti semitism under all the anti Islamic stuff makes it a bit difficult to bring this old but perennially popular "Jewish Banker conspiracy" stuff out of the cupboard. Unlucky for them most of the high profile banker bandits are Scottish ! I'm sure that in private the Far Right must see the current crisis as a rerun of the thirties "Jewish financial conspiracy" stuff.
> 
> Next round of riots and all sorts of nasty establishment licensed xenophobic stuff will no doubt pour out of the gobs of various Right wing "celebrities" (and live fire from the cops too maybe ?)
> 
> ...



There's loads of this stuff all over the occupy movement (on Facebook at least), ties in nicely with the NWO/9-11/David Icke conspiracy stuff, including people posting David Duke vids.


----------



## bignose1 (Dec 22, 2011)

Joe Reilly said:


> But then Steve, according to another good pal of yours, Glen P./Abu/?/none of us, have any 'real working class legacy' do we? At a public meeting in Belfast in July, accompanied by Hann's missus, he publicly denounced the contributors to BTF as nothing but 'armachair generals'.
> 
> Prior to that he had pointed the finger at another former AFA organiser as a 'tout'. This led to a formal investigation by the republican group Eirighi - at it should be said, the insistence of the victim of the smear.
> 
> ...



Email to me from Glen Phillips Sent 21 December 2011 18:13

Steve, a Chara

Thanks for bringing the Urban 75 posting to my attention. I said to you at the time I thought it was Gary O'Shea/Joe Reilly making up stories as usual but I wanted to check it all out first before e-mailing you back.

I went down to Lurgan and did a meeting with Breandan Mac Cionnaith, the Genral Secretary of Eirigi. Tony (TC) Catney was present too. Breandan was happy to confirm

* Eirigi have never investigated me
* No 'senior republicans' ever interviewed me
* Eirigi never concluded I was a 'tad dodgy'
* Eirigi do not consider me 'persona non grata'

Of course I knew all that anyway but I thought it would be good to get Eirigi to confirm it publicly. If you need any information please contact Breandan, TC or myself.

It seems that Gary O'Shea/Joe Reilly and the remnants of Red Action like Clifford and Heddon are intent on casting aspertions on genuine republicans. My advice to activists is to take their musings with a pinch of salt.

Adh mor
Glen


----------



## Joe Reilly (Dec 22, 2011)

Joe Reilly said:


> Last August myself and another contributor, Butchers I think, made a prediction on here, that one of the fall outs of the August riots would in the long run prove a boon for the far-right as a whole. I suggsted that repatriation in a veiled way may even resurface. I can't help feeling that the conviction of Suarez, the charging of Terry, comments by Starkey, Cleese, George Orwell's biographer, and Lionel Shriver are all part of that same dance?
> 
> Or is it just coincidence, that sense then certian public individuals feel licensed to say in public what they either think or say in private?



I think we can no add to that the survey by sky that foundto 2 to 1 in favour of Suarez -plus the really tasteless T-shirts worn by Liverpool players last night in which it is Suarez that is cast as victim and Evra as villian.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Dec 23, 2011)

bignose1 said:


> Email to me from Glen Phillips Sent 21 December 2011 18:13
> 
> Steve, a Chara
> 
> ...


 
The facts are as follows:

1.Glen Phillps made an allegation to a leading member of Eirigi Sean Mcbradaigh, that he believed former AFA organiser John Heddon to be a long term police asset.

2.John Heddon responded by inviting Phillips to withdraw allegations or provide evidence.

3.He refused to withdraw and as a result was formally invited to make a statement by Eirigi. This subsequently took place in early July 2011.

4. in the interview he added significantly to his original accusation.

5. He also cited Debi Grue, Steve Tilzey, Dave Hann (deceased) and Louise Purbick as individuals who would back his testimony.

Eirigi found his allegations to be utterly without merit and rejected them in their entirety.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Dec 23, 2011)

bignose1 said:


> Email to me from Glen Phillips Sent 21 December 2011 18:13
> 
> Steve, a Chara
> 
> ...


----------



## bignose1 (Dec 24, 2011)

You, Clifford and others allied to you made assertions about a person a few months ago (SP) Even if what you say about Heddon above is true...you then make those allegations against SP (then realise its bollox but get all sanctimonious about Heddon) A tad hypocritical Gary..


----------



## Nigel (Dec 24, 2011)

MellySingsDoom said:


> ayatollah - a mate of mine confirmed recently that some of the David Icke brigade were trying to "charm" their way into Occupy St Pauls and Finsbury Square, so you're not far off at all with your analysis...


A group calling itself uk collumn and/or lawful rebellion are involved in trying to infiltrate Occupy Movement.


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## Nigel (Dec 24, 2011)

Anychancesof old copies of Red Action being published somewhere?


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## love detective (Dec 25, 2011)

will be early next year sometime


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## Nigel (Dec 26, 2011)

love detective said:


> will be early next year sometime


Nice One!


----------



## Red Storm (Dec 26, 2011)

I'm going to photocopy them all (if possible) from the British Library in January.


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## Red Storm (Dec 26, 2011)

Just noticed that No Retreat has a kindle version. Is BtF going to get a Kindle edition?


----------



## malatesta32 (Dec 27, 2011)

very interesting!
http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2011/12/490508.html


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## bignose1 (Dec 27, 2011)

Red Storm said:


> Just noticed that No Retreat has a kindle version. Is BtF going to get a Kindle edition?[/quote


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## bignose1 (Dec 27, 2011)

It was taken on for a kindle version due to good sales volume, even 7 years on, and the fact it sells regularly(new). Also coming to end of print run ie its about to sell out. The people who have asked me recently on here what the print run was Ive referred to Milo. It is sometimes possible to update(rather than edit) a book for online/kindle versions but it does require a fair bit of planning.


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## Demu (Dec 27, 2011)

bignose1 said:


> You, Clifford and others allied to you made assertions about a person a few months ago (SP) Even if what you say about Heddon above is true...you then make those allegations against SP (then realise its bollox but get all sanctimonious about Heddon) A tad hypocritical Gary..


What assertions against SP? 

Your associate SP has claimed he was active in AFA. He has *never* been involved with AFA. 

He has claimed to me and fellow anti fascists that he knows me and fell out with me. I have never met him, spoke to him or even been in the same room as him prior to the MAFA meeting earlier this year. 

What others (equally allied to you) make of this is perhaps borne of having served time as a result of the claims of the fantasist Michelle Mole.

The assertion I have put to you is that I believe SP was the person with you at DN funeral, and it was noted by myself and others, that your appearance midway through the procession, next to the AFA contingent appeared to be for the purpose of being filmed with AFA.

I am quite happy to retract this assertion in respect of SP, if you or SP confirm that I am wrong about the identity of the person being filmed with you at the funeral. 

This is somewhat different from the accusations made by Glen to Eirigi with regard to John, naming him as a long term police asset, yet Glen remarkably failed to ever tell anyone in AFA at the time or in the intervening years. 

I am led to believe that in his statement Glen also makes accusations against myself and the Noonans. 

Perhaps your associate Glen can clarify these matters beyond claiming that Joe Reilly made it all up.


----------



## bignose1 (Dec 27, 2011)

Demu said:


> What assertions against SP?
> 
> Your associate SP has claimed he was active in AFA. He has *never* been involved with AFA.
> 
> ...


When Ive got a bit of time later Ill send you a reply but one thing quickly.Do you honestly believe I wanted to be filmed next to the AFA contingent. This confirms that your fucking deluded. and hence all your musings since before and after. You have hidden behind gangs/crews all your life Clifford. You think status is about name dropping and veiled threats. Doesnt this somehow fly in the face of what you purport is what the IWCA is about. Anti gang..against lumpen behaviour..anti drugs..anti racket.I take what you say in particular with the contempt it deserves..your world is too devoid of anything decent..your a twisted cunt.


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## Demu (Dec 27, 2011)

bignose1 said:


> When Ive got a bit of time later Ill send you a reply but one thing quickly.Do you honestly believe I wanted to be filmed next to the AFA contingent. This confirms that your fucking deluded. and hence all your musings since before and after. You have hidden behind gangs/crews all your life Clifford. You think status is about name dropping and veiled threats. Doesnt this somehow fly in the face of what you purport is what the IWCA is about. Anti gang..against lumpen behaviour..anti drugs..anti racket.I take what you say in particular with the contempt it deserves..your world is too devoid of anything decent..your a twisted cunt.


and a Merry Christmas to you too


----------



## bignose1 (Dec 27, 2011)

bignose1 said:


> When Ive got a bit of time later Ill send you a reply but one thing quickly.Do you honestly believe I wanted to be filmed next to the AFA contingent. This confirms that your fucking deluded. and hence all your musings since before and after. You have hidden behind gangs/crews all your life Clifford. You think status is about name dropping and veiled threats. Doesnt this somehow fly in the face of what you purport is what the IWCA is about. Anti gang..against lumpen behaviour..anti drugs..anti racket.I take what you say in particular with the contempt it deserves..your world is too devoid of anything decent..your a twisted cunt.


I was at Dessies funeral as an old friend and I think its disrespectful for you to think that I was there to score points. Although we grew apart and seldom met in the latter part of his life..i was with Dessie when he went through some of his lowest points. Its not the place for details but it goes without saying that I looked at our friendship as something more than just being on hand as AFA muscle and back up against the fash..Yet you and your fellow comrades are constrained by your warped view of anyone who didnt follow your ways and cant recognise the fact that some people can genuinely mourn the passing of an old friend. The way you construct your arguments are more akin to Stalinesque conspiracies and thats why I think you cannot possibly have any relevance or place in the political landscape. Let alone be of any genuine personal worth. Your moments are too often taken up destroying peoples legacies and the genuine efforts of those that want to hasten change in this shitty world. Id like to think that your just cantankerous old twats but that would be unfair to cantankorous old twats.


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Dec 27, 2011)

malatesta32 said:


> very interesting!
> http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2011/12/490508.html



Hi M - funny, on reading that, the first possible connection I thought of between "The Beast" and fascist Black Metal groups (in the UK, anyway) is Alex Kurtagic/Supernal Music - may be worth investigating....


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## malatesta32 (Dec 28, 2011)

Hi Melly! happy hols and all that.shall be investigating further in the new year. browning is another of those 'professional fascists' who live off 'the movement' and realised that these eejits have money to spend. mr tommy, griffin, edmonds and many others likewise.


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## malatesta32 (Dec 28, 2011)

another 'waterloo classic!'


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## Joe Reilly (Dec 28, 2011)

bignose1 said:


> You, Clifford and others allied to you made assertions about a person a few months ago (SP) Even if what you say about Heddon above is true...you then make those allegations against SP (then realise its bollox but get all sanctimonious about Heddon) A tad hypocritical Gary..



The only connection between someone telling lies about someone else and someone telling lies about himself appears to be - you.


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## Anudder Oik (Dec 28, 2011)

malatesta32 said:


> another 'waterloo classic!'



That pic says it all. 5 guys havin it with a horde of Zombie white power drones. I won't say skins as that's an insult to that particular subculture and as far as I'm concerned the white power thing couldn't be further away from the origins of skinhead culture. This pic is, I believe, from when the fash were chased across the bridge but came running back cos there were more anti fash on the other side. Can someone who was there put some context on this pic? How did the big AFA skin, the one that took on about 20 of them alone, come out of it?

PS, the infighting in this thread is getting boring and distracts from the point. ie, promoting what is an excellent book. If it were an argument over political direction, ok, but it isn't , so less of that and more constructive posts if you please. After all you have a shared legacy and the problem you fought against hasn't gone away.

PS, I'd love to see a pic of the waterloo station concourse when everyone gathered there. There are too many pics of the bones and not enough of the people who chased them around.


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## Red Storm (Dec 28, 2011)

I need to pick a good picture for the front of my dissertation. Thanks for all of these pics malatesta


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## malatesta32 (Dec 29, 2011)

Anudder Oik said:


> That pic says it all. 5 guys havin it with a horde of Zombie white power drones. I won't say skins as that's an insult to that particular subculture and as far as I'm concerned the white power thing couldn't be further away from the origins of skinhead culture. This pic is, I believe, from when the fash were chased across the bridge but came running back cos there were more anti fash on the other side. Can someone who was there put some context on this pic? How did the big AFA skin, the one that took on about 20 of them alone, come out of it?.



yeah if anyone can supply captions as to who is on what side (not names obviously). antifascist skinheads can be mistaken for bones. makes documentation a tad easier.


----------



## Deareg (Dec 29, 2011)

Anudder Oik said:


> That pic says it all. 5 guys havin it with a horde of Zombie white power drones. I won't say skins as that's an insult to that particular subculture and as far as I'm concerned the white power thing couldn't be further away from the origins of skinhead culture. This pic is, I believe, from when the fash were chased across the bridge but came running back cos there were more anti fash on the other side. Can someone who was there put some context on this pic? How did the big AFA skin, the one that took on about 20 of them alone, come out of it?
> 
> PS, the infighting in this thread is getting boring and distracts from the point. ie, promoting what is an excellent book. If it were an argument over political direction, ok, but it isn't , so less of that and more constructive posts if you please. After all you have a shared legacy and the problem you fought against hasn't gone away.
> 
> PS, I'd love to see a pic of the waterloo station concourse when everyone gathered there. There are too many pics of the bones and not enough of the people who chased them around.


The big blonde fella came out of it with a lot of bruising around the legs but still able to carry on fighting, I have told him about this thread but I don't think he could view it as he is not a member.


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## TopCat (Dec 29, 2011)

Deareg said:


> The big blonde fella came out of it with a lot of bruising around the legs but still able to carry on fighting, I have told him about this thread but I don't think he could view it as he is not a member.


This forum is open for viewing to anyone.


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## Deareg (Dec 29, 2011)

TopCat said:


> This forum is open for viewing to anyone.


He must have been looking in the wrong place then.


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## malatesta32 (Dec 29, 2011)

a super fellow whatever!


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## malatesta32 (Dec 29, 2011)

startling revelations from lecomber over on shirtfront forum called
FBIs Hal Turner had informants in the BNP
from #41 onwards. le combover is 'tactician.' he's incorrigible!


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 29, 2011)

Is this the canadian minor internet celebrity hal turner with his anti-jew talk show whose spent the last 4 years in jail?


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## malatesta32 (Dec 29, 2011)

save you some time frogs, they say he was gathering info about extremists by asking for donations. then lecombover goes all confessional and tells us how he made the BNP the success it is today!


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 29, 2011)

Hahaha


----------



## malatesta32 (Dec 29, 2011)

lecomber claims on the thread mentionec above:
'I can tell you that when you have a plant in the enemy bosom, you don't tell anyone. Throughout the middle to late 90s, I had someone in AFA. We got a lot of info at that time.'
any comments anyone?


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 29, 2011)

> 'I can tell you that when you have a plant in the enemy bosom, you don't tell anyone.



fnar.


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 29, 2011)

If some fash put a plant in my bosom I don't think telling anyone would make much difference personally. What kind of plant are we talking about here anyway a pointsettia or a cactus?


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## malatesta32 (Dec 29, 2011)

is he referring to that part turkish (?) feller who then joined the bnp? cant remember the tool's name offhand? rumsten?


----------



## SpineyNorman (Dec 29, 2011)

malatesta32 said:


> is he referring to that part turkish (?) feller who then joined the bnp? cant remember the tool's name offhand? rumsten?



Lawrence Rustem. He's mentioned in the book.


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## Deareg (Dec 29, 2011)

malatesta32 said:


> lecomber claims on the thread mentionec above:
> 'I can tell you that when you have a plant in the enemy bosom, you don't tell anyone. Throughout the middle to late 90s, I had someone in AFA. We got a lot of info at that time.'
> any comments anyone?


AFA had branches in quite a lot of areas and a lot of individual supporters, so I suppose it would have been possible to put an informer in somewhere, the info was obviously not of much use to them, as all the kicking's they got will bear testimony.


----------



## bignose1 (Dec 29, 2011)

Joe Reilly said:


> The only connection between someone telling lies about someone else and someone telling lies about himself appears to be - you.


Youve surpassed your talking shite quota yet again


----------



## Nigel (Dec 29, 2011)

malatesta32 said:


> lecomber claims on the thread mentionec above:
> 'I can tell you that when you have a plant in the enemy bosom, you don't tell anyone. Throughout the middle to late 90s, I had someone in AFA. We got a lot of info at that time.'
> any comments anyone?


Was this when Lecomber was based in East Sussex/East Surrey?


----------



## malatesta32 (Dec 29, 2011)

not sure of exact details. he is having a confessional outburst on shirtfront which i have just waded through.


----------



## Nigel (Dec 29, 2011)

malatesta32 said:


> not sure of exact details. he is having a confessional outburst on shirtfront which i have just waded through.


Early nineties character called Frank was hanging around Class War in Surrey, spending most of his time being wound up by T.S. Always very interested in Anti Fascism.
Left , apparentely joined B N P wrote an article for Spearhead about his experiences in 'Anarchist' movement(never read it). Last I was told he joined Dagenham Labour Party, but that was close to twenty years ago.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Dec 30, 2011)

malatesta32 said:


> ... then lecombover goes all confessional and tells us how he made the BNP the success it is today!



Look at the Arab Spring before crowing about the demise of the far -right. Some months back it was suggested that because of the credit crunch and the attendant economic woe it was perfect for the left renaissance while the far-right would be sidelined. But in the Middle East, the uprising initiated by liberals and democrats, it is actually the Muslim Brotherhood and fellow travellers who are in the box seat. Why? They have been working at a grass roots level for decades and it is invariably the best _organised_ rather than the people with the best politics who get to shape the future.


----------



## Nigel (Dec 30, 2011)

Joe Reilly said:


> Look at the Arab Spring before crowing about the demise of the far -right. Some months back it was suggested that because of the credit crunch and the attendant economic woe it was perfect for the left renaissance while the far-right would be sidelined. But in the Middle East, the uprising initiated by liberals and democrats, it is actually the Muslim Brotherhood and fellow travellers who are in the box seat. Why? They have been working at a grass roots level for decades and it is invariably the best _organised_ rather than the people with the best politics who get to shape the future.


So you hold no credence in Chris Harman's analysis outlined in Prophet & Proletariat?
http://www.marxists.de/religion/harman/


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Dec 31, 2011)

malatesta32 said:


> save you some time frogs, they say he was gathering info about extremists by asking for donations. then lecombover goes all confessional and tells us how he made the BNP the success it is today!



Hi M - when I used to keep an eye on the BNP lot on the British "Democracy" Forum, Tarmac Tony would often regale/bore everyone with his "achievements" (and claim he wasn't a racist!), some of which reached real Billy Liar territory - the funniest/most absurd WTF moment though was when a fellow "nationalist" probed Lecomber about a rumoured assault by him on Eddy Butler at Leyton tube station.  Not only did the Tarmac one confirm that this was true, but also confirmed he dressed like some bizarre racist ninja/SAS operative hybrid, complete with facial camouflage!


----------



## malatesta32 (Dec 31, 2011)

Joe Reilly said:


> Look at the Arab Spring before crowing about the demise of the far -right. Some months back it was suggested that because of the credit crunch and the attendant economic woe it was perfect for the left renaissance while the far-right would be sidelined. But in the Middle East, the uprising initiated by liberals and democrats, it is actually the Muslim Brotherhood and fellow travellers who are in the box seat. Why? They have been working at a grass roots level for decades and it is invariably the best _organised_ rather than the people with the best politics who get to shape the future.



joe, i most certainly was not 'crowing about the demise of the far right' i was talking about the demise of the bnp in paritcular, riven with ineptitude, greed and corruption. there is still much far right sentiment about on immigration, political asylum and foreign aid and all the little far right grupuscules know it and are trying to capitalise on it (BF, ED ad nauseum). as for the muslim brotherhood and arseholes like choudhary, i class them along with the far right.


----------



## malatesta32 (Dec 31, 2011)

MellySingsDoom said:


> Hi M - when I used to keep an eye on the BNP lot on the British "Democracy" Forum, Tarmac Tony would often regale/bore everyone with his "achievements" (and claim he wasn't a racist!), some of which reached real Billy Liar territory - the funniest/most absurd WTF moment though was when a fellow "nationalist" probed Lecomber about a rumoured assault by him on Eddy Butler at Leyton tube station. Not only did the Tarmac one confirm that this was true, but also confirmed he dressed like some bizarre racist ninja/SAS operative hybrid, complete with facial camouflage!



hi melly! despite being vocal about many things lecomber is remarkably reticent about other incidents. one poster said he had attacked butler at loughton, just up from leyton, on the shirtfront thread and  he had 'blacked up' beneath his ninja outfit. loughton has always hosted quite a bit of far right activity and there was a pub in debden near the big estate that was frequented by 'unpleasant types.'
 .


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Dec 31, 2011)

malatesta32 said:


> hi melly! despite being vocal about many things lecomber is remarkably reticent about other incidents. one poster said he had attacked butler at loughton, just up from leyton, on the shirtfront thread and he had 'blacked up' beneath his ninja outfit. loughton has always hosted quite a bit of far right activity and there was a pub in debden near the big estate that was frequented by 'unpleasant types.'
> .



Yeah, it's that good old "nationalist" selective memory, eh?   (And you're right, it was Loughton tube, not Leyton  (d'oh!))


----------



## Joe Reilly (Jan 2, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> Hi Melly! happy hols and all that.shall be investigating further in the new year. browning is another of those 'professional fascists' who live off 'the movement' and realised that these eejits have money to spend. mr tommy, griffin, edmonds and many others likewise.



Ok, fascists are fascists, but in the interests of our own research we need a little more precision: has edmonds ever 'lived off' the movement in any real sense? Sure, he worked for the party full time but all political movements have full-timers. Equally the notion that all fascists are idiots/charlatans Lecomber et al is also self-defeating. For one simple reason that it's not true.


----------



## cantsin (Jan 2, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> joe, i most certainly was not 'crowing about the demise of the far right' i was talking about the demise of the bnp in paritcular, riven with ineptitude, greed and corruption. there is still much far right sentiment about on immigration, political asylum and foreign aid and all the little far right grupuscules know it and are trying to capitalise on it (BF, ED ad nauseum). as for the muslim brotherhood and arseholes like choudhary, i class them along with the far right.



for someone who spends so much time / effort opposing the EDL. not sure how contructive / accurate it is to equate a deranged, self publicist like Choudary and his 50 followers with a 100 yr old, pan -arabic , movement like the MB...and then 'class them along with the far right ' .... ????


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## malatesta32 (Jan 2, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> Ok, fascists are fascists, but in the interests of our own research we need a little more precision: has edmonds ever 'lived off' the movement in any real sense? Sure, he worked for the party full time but all political movements have full-timers. Equally the notion that all fascists are idiots/charlatans Lecomber et al is also self-defeating. For one simple reason that it's not true.



joe, im answering this even tho you never respond to my questions. the likes of tommy robinson, edmonds, griffin, morrison etc all 'live off' the movement because they dont know how to do anything else, their criminal records restrict employment opps or they have recognised easily accessible funds form the gullible (esp griffin, morrison and robinson). the donate buttons and tacky merchandise are a common sight on the websites of even tiny outfits like BPP. i do not think lecomber is an eejit but if you read the stuff he has been posting recently which i have reposted links to, you can make your own mind up on charlatanism, if being a charlatan means adapting ones views to fit the circumstances to your advantage. any response to  post 1686 by the way? whose on which side?


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## malatesta32 (Jan 2, 2012)

cantsin said:


> for someone who spends so much time / effort opposing the EDL. not sure how contructive / accurate it is to equate a deranged, self publicist like Choudary and his 50 followers with a 100 yr old, pan -arabic , movement like the MB...and then 'class them along with the far right ' .... ????



i meant that their viewpoints are all equally repressive and therefore repellent be they homophobic, misogynist, nationalistic, culturally intolerant and so on.


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## malatesta32 (Jan 2, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> Ok, fascists are fascists, but in the interests of our own research we need a little more precision: has edmonds ever 'lived off' the movement in any real sense? Sure, he worked for the party full time but all political movements have full-timers. Equally the notion that all fascists are idiots/charlatans Lecomber et al is also self-defeating. For one simple reason that it's not true.



i also wrote over on edl thread:
joe, butchers, granted that AFA mark 2 (actually mark 3) is not really a requirement, but what about when the EDL come to town? do we rely on informal antifascism knowing that local activists usually turn up? also, with the Hope Not Hate split from uncle Gerry, what do you think of Lowles more community focussed ideas?


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## MellySingsDoom (Jan 2, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> Ok, fascists are fascists, but in the interests of our own research we need a little more precision: has edmonds ever 'lived off' the movement in any real sense? Sure, he worked for the party full time but all political movements have full-timers. Equally the notion that all fascists are idiots/charlatans Lecomber et al is also self-defeating. For one simple reason that it's not true.



Joe - I was under the impression that Edmonds received a big pay-off from his employer in the 1980's, allowing him to basically live off that and work for the BNP full time (and finance the printing etc of "Holocaust News")?


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## bignose1 (Jan 3, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> i also wrote over on edl thread:
> joe, butchers, granted that AFA mark 2 (actually mark 3) is not really a requirement, but what about when the EDL come to town? do we rely on informal antifascism knowing that local activists usually turn up? also, with the Hope Not Hate split from uncle Gerry, what do you think of Lowles more community focussed ideas?


Dont hold your breath...


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## Joe Reilly (Jan 3, 2012)

MellySingsDoom said:


> Joe - I was under the impression that Edmonds received a big pay-off from his employer in the 1980's, allowing him to basically live off that and work for the BNP full time (and finance the printing etc of "Holocaust News")?



Well if that's the case he wasn't living off the movement as alleged, it appears to actually have been funding it.


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## malatesta32 (Jan 3, 2012)

MellySingsDoom said:


> Joe - I was under the impression that Edmonds received a big pay-off from his employer in the 1980's, allowing him to basically live off that and work for the BNP full time (and finance the printing etc of "Holocaust News")?



in collins book i recall that edmonds was living in welling and had spent his money on the HQ. the was then living with his wife there selling the usual propaganda. from what collins infers he was living there as he had run out of cash and was surviving on cups of tea and old copies of spearhead.


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## DaveCinzano (Jan 3, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> ...he was living there as he had run out of cash and was surviving on...old copies of spearhead.



I'm intrigued - warming his hands over a fire fuelled by them? Eating them? Selling them on the streets in the manner of a particularly bigoted _Big Issue_ vendor? Sustaining his bilious black heart by way of a constant rereading of them?


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## malatesta32 (Jan 3, 2012)

was being frivolous. collins describes sitting in the squalor of bnp hq drinking tea surrounded by 1,000s of holocaust denial newspapers! p88. worth a read i must say!


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## frogwoman (Jan 3, 2012)

Malatesta would you recommend buying the matthew collins book?


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## malatesta32 (Jan 3, 2012)

yes i wd. it is laugh out loud funny in places and paints of the far right as a psychotic lonely drinking club. i laughed out loud in a public place at parts of it!
http://malatesta32.wordpress.com/2011/09/09/review-of-hate-by-matthew-collins/


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## Joe Reilly (Jan 3, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> joe, im answering this even tho you never respond to my questions. the likes of tommy robinson, edmonds, griffin, morrison etc all 'live off' the movement because they dont know how to do anything else, their criminal records restrict employment opps or they have recognised easily accessible funds form the gullible (esp griffin, morrison and robinson). the donate buttons and tacky merchandise are a common sight on the websites of even tiny outfits like BPP. i do not think lecomber is an eejit but if you read the stuff he has been posting recently which i have reposted links to, you can make your own mind up on charlatanism, if being a charlatan means adapting ones views to fit the circumstances to your advantage. any response to post 1686 by the way? whose on which side?



I might be wrong but I wasn't aware that Robinson had a record prior to getting involved politically. True he has accrued a few convictions since put that may have been largely as a result of his high profile in the media and/or buckling under the pressure of it. In any event none of the convictions are such that would prevent employment unless he wanted to be a high court judge or something. Equally again as far as I'm aware neither Edmonds or Griffin had records prior to political involvement. Political offences in other words. But again no real bar to employment. Britian is a hell of a lot more right-wing that the left believes.

Charlatanism according to the Collins dictionary means 'claiming expertise you do not have'. Given that Lecomber was involved from his teens, copped two heavy sentences, was fundamental in re-shaping the BNP into an electoral force, it is simply a jacket that does not fit him in anyway.

The general point I'm making is that the presentation of the far-right as utterly dysfunctional, both as organisations and individuals is a common one. However it comes from seeing anyone outside of the mainstream as some sort of crank. Anti-extremism is not anti-fascism. Because the people who identify with the former, regard the latter with similar scorn.

 Look for example at World in Action, who did a rack of (profitable) exposes on the far-right, turn with absolute comfort on the far-left. And in the same way Griffin and Lecomber are routinely traduced on Stormfront, the same methods, indeed sometimes the same form of words, were also employed against leading anti-fascists on the likes Indymedia. On that occassion in a determined campaign to prevent BTF being published.

So while the anti-extremist and anti-fascist agenda's might appear to have a common enemy on occassion, they come from opposing political camps, and it is ultimately disastrous to confuse the two.


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## malatesta32 (Jan 3, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> The general point I'm making is that the presentation of the far-right as utterly dysfunctional, both as organisations and individuals is a common one. However it comes from seeing anyone outside of the mainstream as some sort of crank. Anti-extremism is not anti-fascism. Because the people who identify with the former, regard the latter with similar scorn.
> Look for example at World in Action, who did a rack of (profitable) exposes on the far-right, turn with absolute comfort on the far-left. And in the same way Griffin and Lecomber are routinely traduced on Stormfront, the same methods, indeed sometimes the same form of words, were also employed against leading anti-fascists on the likes Indymedia. On that occassion in a determined campaign to prevent BTF being published.
> So while the anti-extremist and anti-fascist agenda's might appear to have a common enemy on occassion, they come from opposing political camps, and it is ultimately disastrous to confuse the two.



robinson did time before EDL. he was battering his girlfriend when an off duty cop tried to stop him so tommy attacked him. result: 1 year. she was caught with coke but i think got off with it. charlatinism is also fakery and oppprtunism which is what lecomber is up to at the moment judging by the threads i posted earlier. read them to confirm this re: accusations of wrecking bnp etc. see shirtfront 'FBIs Hal Turner had informants in the BNP .'
i am not saying the far right it utterly dysfunctional but it certainly attracts the dysfunctional - holocaust denier, bombers, pedophiles and other sex offenders which i am not going to list here. edl are not in the main extremists but football lads. some members of the bnp etc are extremists and i am not being reductionist in saying this.
the world in action stuff is by 'professional antifascists' whose job it is to talk up the threat. i am sure laryr o hara can happily expand on this as its his area not mine.
as for your point re: indymedia im not familiar with this.


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## malatesta32 (Jan 3, 2012)

apologies, it was this wasnt it.
http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2010/05/452031.html
it was described in the malatesta blog as 'disgraceful and embarassing.' and ultimately unsuccesful!


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## frogwoman (Jan 3, 2012)

maybe im wrong but i thought the point joe is making is that a huge proportion of them are _total_ scum (sex offenders, paedos, etc) but that doesn't mean that they're necc dysfunctional in the sense that they barely capable of mananging to get out of bed, holding down job, (espeically if their "job" is in the fash milieux) and even if they are, they're not (always) sufficiently nuts as to interfere with the party's "work" if you see what i mean. thats how i read his post anyway


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## malatesta32 (Jan 3, 2012)

i take dysfunctional to mean people who think the holocaust was a good idea, that bombing people is a good idea and that hitler was a top hole chappie and dont understand why anyone thinks otherwise! the edl are not dysfunctional and neither are the majority of bnp voters but nazi apologists etc certainly are. maybe collins' book haswarped my 'fragile little mind' cos thats the impression he gives.


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## frogwoman (Jan 3, 2012)

to us yeah, but that's because we're not fash, to them its a "traditional strand of National Socialist "thought" ! "


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## malatesta32 (Jan 3, 2012)

but isnt that dysfuntional? advocating mass murder?


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## frogwoman (Jan 3, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> but isnt that dysfuntional? advocating mass murder?



Yep ...


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## malatesta32 (Jan 3, 2012)

phew!


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## frogwoman (Jan 3, 2012)

i do hope you're not wanting to suppress their freedoms, malatesta


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## malatesta32 (Jan 3, 2012)

lecomber on shirtfront is saying he did time for assaulting an AFA member whereas others say it was a disabled person. anyone clarify?


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## Joe Reilly (Jan 3, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> lecomber on shirtfront is saying he did time for assaulting an AFA member whereas others say it was a disabled person. anyone clarify?



He was a Jewish school teacher who was also an AFA member - came over from ANL I believe. How did Lecomber know he was AFA? He was putting up AFA stickers at the time. Predictably you will see no mention of his AFA membership when the story is recounted by liberal/searchlight propagandists. Instead all you have is his Jewishness, his passivity, not his active political opposition. The implication being that he was attacked simply for being a Jew. Which is handy for them, but also - a deliberate falsehood.


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## Joe Reilly (Jan 3, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> maybe im wrong but i thought the point joe is making is that a huge proportion of them are _total_ scum (sex offenders, paedos, etc) but that doesn't mean that they're necc dysfunctional in the sense that they barely capable of mananging to get out of bed, holding down job, (espeically if their "job" is in the fash milieux) and even if they are, they're not (always) sufficiently nuts as to interfere with the party's "work" if you see what i mean. thats how i read his post anyway



Precisely.


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## Joe Reilly (Jan 3, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> but isnt that dysfuntional? advocating mass murder?



For much of the 20th century much of the Left, sought to justify mass murder - re the Bolsheviks and then later Stalin. For a period between the late 60's up to late 70's publicly, the left also sought to explain/justify paedophilia...just saying...


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## Joe Reilly (Jan 3, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> maybe collins' book haswarped my 'fragile little mind' cos thats the impression he gives.



Yes, but take heed of my previous warning. Collins might have turned away from fascism but what has he turned toward instead?

 Not anti-fascism if his suspected role in trying to prevent BTF being publishedis accurate.

Instead his take, if what I have read about his book is accurate, is the classic one size fits all, 'plague on both your houses' state friendly anti-extremism.

For all I know that might be your take on things too, (but even then it is still important to distinguish between the two), and if it isn't, sceptism must be the order of the day.


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## malatesta32 (Jan 3, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> For much of the 20th century much of the Left, sought to justify mass murder - re the Bolsheviks and then later Stalin. For a period between the late 60's up to late 70's publicly, the left also sought to explain/justify paedophilia...just saying...



the anarchists werent!


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## Red Storm (Jan 3, 2012)

.

(posted on wrong thread)


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## malatesta32 (Jan 3, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> Yes, but take heed of my previous warning. Collins might have turned away from fascism but what has he turned toward instead? Not anti-fascism if his suspected role in trying to prevent BTF being publishedis accurate. Instead his take, if what I have read about his book is accurate, is the classic one size fits all, 'plague on both your houses' state friendly anti-extremism. For all I know that might be your take on things too, (but even then it is still important to distinguish between the two), and if it isn't, sceptism must be the order of the day.



as mentioned in the 'malatesta' review
'An interesting addition to the small body of antifascist literature but Reader Beware of the heavy Searchlight bias running through it!'


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## malatesta32 (Jan 3, 2012)

can i quote you on that storm?


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## The39thStep (Jan 3, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> the anarchists werent!



which anarchists? I don't think you should pigeon hole individuals.


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## malatesta32 (Jan 4, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> which anarchists? I don't think you should pigeon hole individuals.



steps, i meant that the anarchists fared less than well under lenin, stalin etc and that anarchists never praised mao and them! i do not have a list of individuals to hand!!!!


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## intersol32 (Jan 5, 2012)

I'd have never really considered the likes of Lecomber or Edmonds to be "living off the movement" in the sense that they're able to financially feather their own nests. The amount of instances both of these characters took a beating when leading ill-conceived physical forays (Lecomber in particular must have spent more time throughout the early 90's laying down than standing upright) suggests they weren't shouting the odds from the rear whilst checking their balances on the nearest ATM machine.

Some may suggest that the recent influx of cash into the BNP could have provided an incentive to change this position (the revelations re: Griffin etc claiming bogus expenses adds credence to this I guess). However, how much does anyone actually earn from being a full-time party worker these days? Essentially if you're not employed by Labour, the Lib Dems etc then you're not likely to secure a huge salary. My guess is that you'd probably get a better monthly wage shelf stacking at Wilkos.

The point here is that there has always been a tendency on the Left to underestimate the opposition: that they couldn't possibly have the resolve to achieve anything effective without making a complete balls out of it by themselves - a naivete in some areas that led to an unhindered resurgence of Far Right groups throughout the 80's and 90's.

It's the kind of crowing that Searchlight and the UAF still indulge in whenever there appears to be a 'crisis' in the BNP. But what they fail to pick up on is how long some of these individuals have stayed the course.

I also just wanted to comment on the statement earlier that many on the Right are "cranks". I agree that holocaust denial, world Jewish conspiracies and the like are the ramblings of those with no grip on reality. On the other hand the Left has hardly been without its array of colourful characters and wacky ideas. I seem to remember attending one or two meetings over the years that gradually took on the appearance of self-help groups, rather than serious political debates.


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## LiamO (Jan 5, 2012)

Tony Lecomber... a lion leading a load of donkies...

Absolutely agree about the ideological (and personal physical) commitment of Lecomber... thank fuck he was a _relatively_ clever and brave exception rather than the rule.

Nicky Crane was another - thankfully his sexuality precluded him reaching his potential as a leader of Nazis


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## malatesta32 (Jan 6, 2012)

intersol! the point is related to collins' book Hate which describes anderson, edmonds etc living a very marginalised existence, unable to really do anything else - as opposed to them sitting in the counting house like king griffin. there is money to be made for some as tommy robinson etc has spotted but someone like lecomber has put time and effort in for very little return. griffin consolidated his position with favouritism and positions for his acolytes and removed anyone who didnt praise him. these people have certainly been 'living off the movement' especially with the EU allowances for an entourage.

as far as im concerned i over-estimate them if anything else which is why i spend so much time monitoring them and blethering on about em. as far as bnp crises, they are in a constant state of flux rather than expiring. griffin is a canny man and he will keep it going until he exits (stage far right) to croatia. the crank element were always part of the hardcore (sid? Morrison? john griff wood? david mayatt????) rather than the voters. i know people who have voted bnp and they are definitely NOT  fascist in the least (eejits maybe!).


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## Citizen66 (Jan 6, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> i take dysfunctional to mean people who think the holocaust was a good idea



Do many of them state that?  I thought most had control of their faculties enough not to come out with that, so they just deny it happened or quibble over the figures instead.


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## Citizen66 (Jan 6, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> p88. worth a read i must say!



Apt number.


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## malatesta32 (Jan 6, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> Do many of them state that? I thought most had control of their faculties enough not to come out with that, so they just deny it happened or quibble over the figures instead.



we trawl the far right sewers so you dont have to Citizen! i have read much worse than holocaust denial! someone on urban somewhere pointed out that the holocaust is one of the major things that stops the re-establishment of the far right hence the denial.


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## Red Storm (Jan 6, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> *we* trawl the far right sewers so you dont have to Citizen! i have read much worse than holocaust denial! someone on urban somewhere pointed out that the holocaust is one of the major things that stops the re-establishment of the far right hence the denial.



How many of you are there?


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## Citizen66 (Jan 6, 2012)

Anyway Malatesta32, I've bought Collins' book on your say so. Just about to settle into the foreword by Billy Bragg.


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## bignose1 (Jan 6, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> Anyway Malatesta32, I've bought Collins' book on your say so. Just about to settle into the foreword by Billy Bragg.


Ive got a signed spare copy.......free to any body who can guess my correct weight...


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## Proper Tidy (Jan 6, 2012)

18.5 stone


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## Deareg (Jan 6, 2012)

Proper Tidy said:


> 18.5 stone


Flattery will get you nowhere.


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## Spanky Longhorn (Jan 6, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Ive got a signed spare copy.......free to any body who can guess my correct weight...



34 stone


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## SpineyNorman (Jan 6, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Ive got a signed spare copy.......free to any body who can guess my correct weight...



12 stone and with a six pack to make Peter Andre Jealous! (I'd quite like a copy of that book lol)


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## Red Storm (Jan 7, 2012)

15 stone


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## bignose1 (Jan 7, 2012)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> 34 stone


You cheeky beggar.....for your insoloence ..2 copie of Collins's book!!!


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## bignose1 (Jan 7, 2012)

Proper Tidy said:


> 18.5 stone


Spot on.....fucking amazing...perchance how did you arrive at such an accurate estimate...


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## bignose1 (Jan 7, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Spot on.....fucking amazing...perchance how did you arrive at such an accurate estimate...


PT...PM me re book!


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## malatesta32 (Jan 7, 2012)

i think its a good read and it is very funny in parts. for insight into militant antifascism go elsewhere but as a portrait of some of the sad characters on the far right, its pretty unbeatable!


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## frogwoman (Jan 7, 2012)

Malatesta what's that "no quarter" magazine on your blog m8? Looked pretty interesting


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## The39thStep (Jan 7, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> we trawl the far right sewers so you dont have to Citizen! i have read much worse than holocaust denial! someone on urban somewhere pointed out that the holocaust is one of the major things that stops the re-establishment of the far right hence the denial.



The old anti semtitic based fascism is simply now out of date within modern euro fascism. It doesn't even carry much weight or value amongst members. I am sure there are a few fash about who still think Hitler was great lets face it aif the mebership and its supporters were convinced that holocaust drenail had some currency no amount of prompting from Griffin etc not to mention the war would have made any diffrenec.The threat  for the far right isn't any link to being exposed as holcaust deniers but the state itself. The BNP managed to become the biggest opposition to Lib Con Lab despite opponents trying to use the Nazi tag.


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## Proper Tidy (Jan 7, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Spot on.....fucking amazing...perchance how did you arrive at such an accurate estimate...



You're very jolly.

Do I get the book?


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## Proper Tidy (Jan 7, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> Malatesta what's that "no quarter" magazine on your blog m8? Looked pretty interesting



It's AFA Ireland's mag froggy


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## audiotech (Jan 7, 2012)

Proper Tidy said:


> You're very jolly.
> 
> Do I get the book?



Fat chance?


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## Fedayn (Jan 7, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> The old anti semtitic based fascism is simply now out of date within modern euro fascism. It doesn't even carry much weight or value amongst members. I am sure there are a few fash about who still think Hitler was great lets face it aif the mebership and its supporters were convinced that holocaust drenail had some currency no amount of prompting from Griffin etc not to mention the war would have made any diffrenec.The threat for the far right isn't any link to being exposed as holcaust deniers but the state itself. The BNP managed to become the biggest opposition to Lib Con Lab despite opponents trying to use the Nazi tag.



Stormfront is still pretty hot on the 'Holohoax'.


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## malatesta32 (Jan 7, 2012)

frogs i found it on ireland AFA site. its a cracking pic and will be used extensively on the malatesta blog!


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## MellySingsDoom (Jan 7, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> Malatesta what's that "no quarter" magazine on your blog m8? Looked pretty interesting



Hi mate  - there's an issue here of "No Quarter" that you can download (it's issue 2): http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/20...-irelands-anti-fascist-magazine-issue-2-2005/

Will have a look to see if I can track down other issues of the mag 

E2A #1: Just found issue 1 of "No Quarter" online: http://www.scribd.com/doc/54530411/No-Quarter-1-2002

E2A #2: Aha, I see that Freedom Press also stock "No Quarter" as well: http://www.freedompress.org.uk/news/2011/08/22/magazines/


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## The39thStep (Jan 7, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> Stormfront is still pretty hot on the 'Holohoax'.



Has zilch impact or credibility even within the far right. Its just a rump of fantacists and anti fascists who have nothing better to do.


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## Fedayn (Jan 7, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> Has zilch impact or credibility even within the far right. Its just a rump of fantacists and anti fascists who have nothing better to do.



There's a few serious heads from over here on it. They're more influential elsewhere mind.


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## malatesta32 (Jan 8, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> The old anti semtitic based fascism is simply now out of date within modern euro fascism. It doesn't even carry much weight or value amongst members. I am sure there are a few fash about who still think Hitler was great lets face it aif the mebership and its supporters were convinced that holocaust drenail had some currency no amount of prompting from Griffin etc not to mention the war would have made any diffrenec.The threat for the far right isn't any link to being exposed as holcaust deniers but the state itself. The BNP managed to become the biggest opposition to Lib Con Lab despite opponents trying to use the Nazi tag.



i think the infidels are still using anti-semitism - tho calling it 'zionism' which is a byword for antisemitism - and there are still a clutch of deniers on shirtfront as well as a bunch of 88s, 28s, 18 etc. the bnp and fuffies have tried to get rid of deniers like batty barnes as most voters find nazis repellent and the 2nd world war as morally correct. street fascism has focussed away from the jews - mainly because of assimilation and a tiny visible presence of hassidim/orthodox in UK - and on to 'muslims' - a byword for 'pakis.' they say islam is not a race so we're not racist, but its odd that the majority of 'visible' muslims all happen to be brown. what a coincidence! as for the state thing steps, to use old CB Radio terminology - i 10/4 that good buddy! over and out!


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## MellySingsDoom (Jan 8, 2012)

Just to add to Mal's reply to senor 39thStep - I've noticed recently that a lot of so-called "national anarchists" in Europe (particularly in Germany) have taken the lead from Troy Southgate and used "anti-Zionism" as an entryist tactic to disseminate coded anti-Semitic propaganda (and also what they call their version of "anti-capitalism").  Whilst I'd definitely agree with senor 39th that Islamophobia is still way, way more popular within Euro-fascist circles, this new form of coded anti-Semitism is a real and very worrying development indeed...


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## malatesta32 (Jan 8, 2012)

good stuff that!


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## malatesta32 (Jan 8, 2012)

i meant no quarter, not the stuff on anti-smtism!


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## ayatollah (Jan 8, 2012)

Whilst it is obviously extremely tactically sensible for fascists to put the old anti semitism into the background whilst they major on Islamaphobia in Europe generally - given, as has been said here, the low profile of Jews in Europe nowadays . It is nevertheless VERY difficult for the fascists to now dispense with anti semitism as a core element of their ideology. Anti semitism , whether simply the "Jewish banker" stereotype, or the even more paranoid USA Militia style "ZOG"  ie "Zionist Occupation Government" stuff , and "secret World Government" paranoid stuff - still drawing on the old "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" nonsense, has bitten so deep into the world fascist viewpoint that the ideological flexibility of pre wwII fascism has to an extent been lost. It's now  quite difficult to write the Jews OUT of this core villain role in the world  fascism "story" - and of course the current world banking crisis gives all the old poisonous stuff credence yet again. So I don't think we'll actually see anti semitism fade from fascist ideology - it will remain more  as the "big secret" to which recruits drawn in  around anti muslim prejudice will next be indoctrinated into as they move deeper into fascist organisations.

For the fascists I actually think this is a major problem  - because although the existing anti semitic ideology is internally reasonably consistent (barmy and wrong but nevertheless part of a clear "narrative" with deep historical roots), it robs fascism of flexibility, and acts as a "red warning marker" as to the true nature of a particular organisation - a very BAD thing for populist movements trying to ride waves of popular discontent, without provoking a harsh  "response" from the anti fascist Left. The NF in France does appear to have managed to bury this core anti semitism in its political posturing , to its advantage, but I assume (with no direct knowledge whether this is so) that the higher echelons of the NF are still saturated with all the old anti Semitic stuff.


----------



## malatesta32 (Jan 9, 2012)

briefly, ayatollah, i still think visibility is key to prejudice on the far right. most jews are assimilated in the UK, the more obvious/orthodox have a tiny presence in all but a few places, golders green (obviously!), manchester etc whereas the 'everyday racist' can see the asian community and focus their resentment on them. this is on the microscale but on a macroscale the zog thing - which is bizarrely contradictory (jewish communism & capitalism???) is still held onto by hardcore but obscure to many.


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## ayatollah (Jan 9, 2012)

You are obviously correct , Malatesta, that for the general grass roots supporter of populist Far Right movements , it is the most visible "outsider group" that the movement will focus on in its "building on prejudice" campaigns --- can be Asians, blacks, Gypsies, Poles. Gays, etc, etc. For fascism as a long term movement with a coherent world view, an ideology, however, all these short term prejudice-based campaigns tend (or have done since the ideological hegemony of German anti semitic Nazism in the late 1930's) to revolve around the "core" world villain concept of the "World Jewish Conspiracy.

Thus fascists may campaign against black communities, black immigration - but once the casual bigot is drawn into the movement it is made clear that it is World Jewry which has imported blacks (Muslims, etc. etc) into the West to "mongrelise the White Race" (The Jewish "race" keeping itself "pure" in contrast). The "plot" of "World Jewry" against ther "White Race" is seen as the permanent core dynamic of history, far more significant than the economic features of "Communism" or "Capitalism" - both of which are seen merely as fig leaves for Jewish control - hence no ideological problem for fascism as seeing the Jewish commissar in the Kremlin and the Jewish banker as allies in the trans historical racial struggle of Jew against the White Race. It's such a different frame of reference to that of the Socialist Left, that it is actually often hard to grasp how fundamentally different the true fascist viewpoint is from ours. The ideology seems obscure to us, and the average bigot too - but it IS a coherent and powerful ideology, that in periods of crisis , like now, provides disgruntled citizens with a world view which APPEARS to explain things like the banking crisis, the perceived threat to white communities presented by multiculturalism, Britain's failing status in the world,the failure of the major political parties to deal with the concerns of unemployed or simply frightened white people. etc. So I wouldn't dismiss anti semitic fascist ideology as some obscurantist hangover from the past - it is still a potentially powerful and dangerous counter ideology to that of radical Socialism in a economic and social crisis.


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## Red Storm (Jan 15, 2012)

Just spotted a book called:The Menace Of "Anti-Fascism": Behind The Rhetoric Of AFA (October 15, 1994)

Never heard of it before. Does anyone know the story behind it? It's written by a Alexander Baron.


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## Fedayn (Jan 15, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> Just spotted a book called:The Menace Of "Anti-Fascism": Behind The Rhetoric Of AFA (October 15, 1994)
> 
> Never heard of it before. Does anyone know the story behind it? It's written by a Alexander Baron.



Not read it but Baron is a loathsome racist scumbag with very clear links to the far-right


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## Red Storm (Jan 15, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> Not read it but Baron is a loathsome racist scumbag with very clear links to the far-right



From the bit of googleing it looked that way. I was unsure because it was published under Anglo-Hebrew publishers.


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## love detective (Jan 15, 2012)

it's not a book, it's like a 10 page pamphlet that makes your eyes bleed


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## cogg (Jan 15, 2012)

love detective said:


> it's not a book, it's like a 10 page pamphlet that makes your eyes bleed


Baron's a complete nutter.


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## Red Storm (Jan 15, 2012)

love detective said:


> it's not a book, it's like a 10 page pamphlet that makes your eyes bleed



I can confirm this is true.


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## Deareg (Jan 15, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> I can confirm this is true.


It just felt like a book.


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## Red Storm (Jan 15, 2012)

I take it the picture of the Red Action 'Join the IRA. Fight the common enemy' sticker in it is fake?


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## manny-p (Jan 15, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> I take it the picture of the Red Action 'Join the IRA. Fight the common enemy' sticker in it is fake?


I thought red action had some folk in it who were very sympathetic to the republican cause?


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## Deareg (Jan 15, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> I take it the picture of the Red Action 'Join the IRA. Fight the common enemy' sticker in it is fake?


Might not be fake, join or support? Red Action did produce stickers with a slogan along those lines, can't remember the exact wording.


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## manny-p (Jan 15, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> I take it the picture of the Red Action 'Join the IRA. Fight the common enemy' sticker in it is fake?


Why did you think it was a fake?


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## frogwoman (Jan 15, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> briefly, ayatollah, i still think visibility is key to prejudice on the far right. most jews are assimilated in the UK, the more obvious/orthodox have a tiny presence in all but a few places, golders green (obviously!), manchester etc whereas the 'everyday racist' can see the asian community and focus their resentment on them. this is on the microscale but on a macroscale the zog thing - which is bizarrely contradictory (jewish communism & capitalism???) is still held onto by hardcore but obscure to many.



i think ultimately in britain that's a dead ideology as there are so few jews in britain.

i'd disagree with the assessment of scumfront as irrelevant, agree re: in britain but not so much in other countries, america especially.


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## Deareg (Jan 15, 2012)

manny-p said:


> Why did you think it was a fake?


If it said 'join' then it probably was fake.


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## manny-p (Jan 15, 2012)

Deareg said:


> If it said 'join' then it probably was fake.


Fair enough.


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## manny-p (Jan 15, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> i think ultimately in britain that's a dead ideology as there are so few jews in britain.
> 
> i'd disagree with the assessment of scumfront as irrelevant, agree re: in britain but not so much in other countries, america especially.



From experience there is actually shit loads of anti semitism amongst Muslims.


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## love detective (Jan 15, 2012)

Deareg said:


> If it said 'join' then it probably was fake.



it said join red action


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## Red Storm (Jan 15, 2012)

It looked fake. Looked like the top of a real RA sticker with text put beneath it. Text looked wrong. Had a sillouet (sp? On my phone) of a person with a gun on it. It wasn't an image either, you could highlight the text which shouldn't happen of it was an image, should it?

It did say join too.

Beneath the sticker was some factually incorrect information about an RA convicted of Republican terrorism too.


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## Red Storm (Jan 15, 2012)

love detective said:


> it said join red action


 
Ah so they've removed 'Red Action' and put 'IRA'?


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## love detective (Jan 15, 2012)

it says join red action though, not join the IRA


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## Deareg (Jan 15, 2012)

love detective said:


> it says join red action though, not join the IRA
> 
> View attachment 15985


My mind must be playing tricks on me because that is more or less the sticker that I thought I remembered.


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## Red Storm (Jan 15, 2012)

Apologies that's the one I meant. Couldn't view it on my phone. Remembered it wrongly.

So is it real?


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## bignose1 (Jan 15, 2012)

Deareg said:


> My mind must be playing tricks on me because that is more or less the sticker that I thought I remembered.


I have an extensive sticker/leaflet/badge collection ...left and right..I do remember the common enemy slogan from my days on delegations to Belfast. But whats the issue..thats how it was then..As Im having a clear out Ill look out of curiosity..


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## intersol32 (Jan 15, 2012)

love detective said:


> it says join red action though, not join the IRA
> 
> View attachment 15985



No fake. The sticker is 100% accurate.

I was originally sent a load of them when I joined RA in the 90's.


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## Red Storm (Jan 15, 2012)

I'm not saying I have an issue with the sticker; not said any thoughts on the political message. I was just shocked at how overt the message is. I didn't realise Red Action's support for the IRA was so public.

I'd like to see that sticker collection though! Get it catalogued on flikr!


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## intersol32 (Jan 15, 2012)

If you ever manage to read any of the Red Action Newspapers, you'd see that support for Irish Republicanism was pretty overt. There were always articles on Support for POWs, reviews of the Belfast delegations etc etc.

The best issue/front cover was probably "Pat Hayes tells Old Bailey.....I Am A Volunteer in the Irish Republican Army".

Would be nice to see these again if anyone has them as PDFs.


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## love detective (Jan 15, 2012)

the complete set is going online soon


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## Red Storm (Jan 15, 2012)

I've actually got my hands on a number of them today. I knew Irish republicanism was important to RA but what I didn't know was that support for a specific organisation, the IRA, was public.


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## Red Storm (Jan 15, 2012)

love detective said:


> the complete set is going online soon



I hope it is soon, could do with them.


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## miktheword (Jan 15, 2012)

I recently found that I still have a couple of pages of the said sticker. My favourite though is the t shirt with
'Buy Red Action or the trendy lefty gets it'.    You can visualise the caricatures of armed RA member and leftie that appeared on it.


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## Red Storm (Jan 15, 2012)

I really want that t shirt!

There really should be a tumblr or flikr to catalogue stickers. There is a blog for stickers in Manchester.


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## malatesta32 (Jan 16, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> Not read it but Baron is a loathsome racist scumbag with very clear links to the far-right


his website is ridiculous and includes his 'comedy sketches' and we use the term very loosely and his sonnets. self-aggradising eejit. he did a review of No Retreat as well but i cant find it. he names names! its not the same guy who wrote The Lowlife tho.


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## bignose1 (Jan 16, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> his website is ridiculous and includes his 'comedy sketches' and we use the term very loosely and his sonnets. self-aggradising eejit. he did a review of No Retreat as well but i cant find it. he names names! its not the same guy who wrote The Lowlife tho.


Did he..sure your not thinking of Rushton


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## malatesta32 (Jan 16, 2012)

yes it was rushton but on his website (i think?). i cant find the original posting.


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## Fozzie Bear (Jan 16, 2012)

love detective said:


> the complete set is going online soon



Great news. Can I add a plea for the original "We Are Red Action" pamphlet to be included?

A bunch of people have mentioned it over the years as being really good...


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## Fozzie Bear (Jan 16, 2012)

I remember those "For the IRA" stickers being stuck on lamp posts around Green Lanes/Finsbury Park when I lived there in the 80s/90s.


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## malatesta32 (Jan 16, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Did he..sure your not thinking of Rushton


yr right. apologies. been having some serious memory loss of late.


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## malatesta32 (Jan 16, 2012)

what happened to taylor & hayes?


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## articul8 (Jan 16, 2012)

The full transcript of Red Pepper's interview with Red Action is now up:
*http://www.redpepper.org.uk/bashing-the-fash/
*


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## love detective (Jan 16, 2012)

about time!


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## articul8 (Jan 16, 2012)

Cheeky fuck


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## intersol32 (Jan 16, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> what happened to taylor & hayes?



Just PM'd you.


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## Red Storm (Jan 16, 2012)

articul8 said:


> The full transcript of Red Pepper's interview with Red Action is now up:
> *http://www.redpepper.org.uk/bashing-the-fash/*



Is there no software to do it?


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## Red Storm (Jan 16, 2012)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Great news. Can I add a plea for the original "We Are Red Action" pamphlet to be included?
> 
> A bunch of people have mentioned it over the years as being really good...



Plus does anyone have the peace process pamphlet?


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## articul8 (Jan 16, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> Is there no software to do it?


? It just needed putting on via WordPress but needed proofing first.


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## DaveCinzano (Jan 16, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> yes it was rushton but on his website (i think?). i cant find the original posting.



Is this what you were talking about?

http://www.searchlight.org.uk/retreat.html


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## malatesta32 (Jan 16, 2012)

thats it! thanks! theres this intersting little nugget!
http://searchlightexposed.com/gerryhelpers_efp_rushton_main.htm


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## past caring (Jan 16, 2012)

articul8 said:


> ? It just needed putting on via WordPress but needed proofing first.



It's _been_ proofed?


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## DaveCinzano (Jan 16, 2012)

past caring said:


> It's _been_ proofed?



More like:




			
				Red Pepper said:
			
		

> Its _bin_ proved?


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## articul8 (Jan 16, 2012)

past caring said:


> It's _been_ proofed?


well quickly (the edited version got properly proofed and subbed and everything ) any howlers spotted will be corrected (PM me!)  Oops realised the intro was a bit garbled.  Now sorted.


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## malatesta32 (Jan 16, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> I have an extensive sticker/leaflet/badge collection ...left and right..I do remember the common enemy slogan from my days on delegations to Belfast. But whats the issue..thats how it was then..As Im having a clear out Ill look out of curiosity..



dont bin it for fex sake!


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## Red About Town (Jan 16, 2012)

The Red Pepper interview is excellent.

Would love to see some old Red Action merchandise - that t-shirt sounds excellent.


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## Anudder Oik (Jan 16, 2012)

Cool interview.

I never tire of reading stuff like that and all that went on re AFA and also their sharp political perspective on both the fash and the left.

Will be checking back for more links.

Meanwhile, any chance of some elaboration on the role of the women? ie, When, like it says in the interview, they went into enemy territory to get information. That requires a rare quality called audacity and deserves more mention.

Secondly, refering to the book it talks about a falling out at a meeting between AFA and a woman ANL organizer, Julie Waterson, I believe. What was that all about again? I can't reread it for a while as I've lent out the book. Was it political or sectarian?


----------



## Riklet (Jan 17, 2012)

Really interesting reading that interview, was particularly interested by the responses to the Q about women involved etc.  Brave and audacious indeed...

Is this elaborated a lot more on in the book, or not so much?


----------



## intersol32 (Jan 17, 2012)

Anudder Oik said:


> Cool interview.
> 
> I never tire of reading stuff like that and all that went on re AFA and also their sharp political perspective on both the fash and the left.
> 
> ...


----------



## intersol32 (Jan 17, 2012)

Note* - Glass Lucozade bottles were a weapon of choice in those days due to the textured grip on the neck, and the glass itself being quite thick. A couple of us had even toyed with the idea of doing an "AFA: Sponsored by Lucozade" type T-Shirt at one point.


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## Pickman's model (Jan 17, 2012)

intersol32 said:


> Note* - Glass Lucozade bottles were a weapon of choice in those days due to the textured grip on the neck, and the glass itself being quite thick. A couple of us had even toyed with the idea of doing an "AFA: Sponsored by Lucozade" type T-Shirt at one point.


i remember going down bethnal green years back and a load of us were searched round the back of york hall. the copper searching me was rather surprised to discover we all had the famous bottles with us  cue a short conversation:

cop: why do you have half a bottle of lucozade on you?
me: i was a bit thirsty and saving a bit for later
cop: so you weren't going to use it the wrong way?
me: eh? the wrong way? what's that then? it's a drink, i drink it.


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## bignose1 (Jan 17, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> dont bin it for fex sake!


No problems....


----------



## miktheword (Jan 17, 2012)




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## Red Storm (Jan 17, 2012)

miktheword said:


> View attachment 16011



Oh shit. I want one of them t-shirts!

If anyone is up for selling one PM me!


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## Fedayn (Jan 17, 2012)

miktheword said:


> View attachment 16011



Want one....


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## gawkrodger (Jan 17, 2012)

I'd be up for re-printing them and donating all profits to the IWCA


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## Red Storm (Jan 17, 2012)

gawkrodger said:


> I'd be up for re-printing them and donating all profits to the IWCA



I'd be up for buying one if reprinting them is cool with the IWCA.


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## DaveCinzano (Jan 17, 2012)

FYI:

Just found an early 1995 article on the _Independent_ website entitled CHARGE OF THE NEW RED BRIGADE, written by Matt Seaton in the wake of the Taylor/Hayes convictions the previous year.



> By global standards, 20th-century Britain has been remarkably free from political violence. Red Action hope to change all that. Angry, ruthless and close to the IRA, they preach socialism through terror



What an introduction!

And here's one by Nick Ryan from 1998, just after the Sargent/Cross convictions, with the slightly less hysterical title of Combat 18: Memoirs of a streetfighting man.


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## Red Storm (Jan 17, 2012)

DaveCinzano said:


> FYI:
> 
> Just found an early 1995 article on the _Independent_ website entitled CHARGE OF THE NEW RED BRIGADE, written by Matt Seaton in the wake of the Taylor/Hayes convictions the previous year.
> 
> ...



The first article is on the Red Action website.


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## DaveCinzano (Jan 17, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> The first article is on the Red Action website.



Ah yes, so I see - and infinitely better formatted than on the Indy's as well!


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## Smokeandsteam (Jan 18, 2012)

gawkrodger said:


> I'd be up for re-printing them and donating all profits to the IWCA



I'd buy at least one


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## ayatollah (Jan 18, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> i remember going down bethnal green years back and a load of us were searched round the back of york hall. the copper searching me was rather surprised to discover we all had the famous bottles with us  cue a short conversation:
> 
> cop: why do you have half a bottle of lucozade on you?
> me: i was a bit thirsty and saving a bit for later
> ...



Yes I too remember the strange liking we all had for this beverage, or really any thick glass bottle, on anti fascist events. I too also remember being stopped by a cop on one such event . He looked suspiciously at the bottle in my plastic carrier bag.. opened it.. sniffed it ... NOT petrol... hmmm... demanded I emptied it out on the spot. Then he just said "mind how you go sonny jim" ... and I tootled off , still with the , now empty, but perfectly servicable bottle. Bit lacking in judgement sometimes the cops !


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## krink (Jan 18, 2012)

Found this via a blog link on the B&H gig thread. It's from the first and last big venture BNP had in sunderland. Taken in 1992 I think. They called a national demo and there was maybe 40 of them and loads more antis. This was the first anti-fascist thing I went to since the mid 80s and it was great to see them literally run away from the assorted crowd of locals/anl/other lefties etc who were being very vocal about wanting to bash the stupid nazis to fuck. I remember the non-political mates I was with found it a right laugh giving the boneheads loads of stick. Odd factoid - one of the people in the rather militant anti-fascist crowd that day is now the leader of sunderland council Paul Watson. Shame he's a full-on Labour bod now.


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## Red Storm (Jan 18, 2012)

krink said:


> View attachment 16032



Cool pic.


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## krink (Jan 18, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> Cool pic.



indeed, wish it was mine!


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## bignose1 (Jan 18, 2012)

krink said:


> Found this via a blog link on the B&H gig thread. It's from the first and last big venture BNP had in sunderland. Taken in 1992 I think. They called a national demo and there was maybe 40 of them and loads more antis. This was the first anti-fascist thing I went to since the mid 80s and it was great to see them literally run away from the assorted crowd of locals/anl/other lefties etc who were being very vocal about wanting to bash the stupid nazis to fuck. I remember the non-political mates I was with found it a right laugh giving the boneheads loads of stick. Odd factoid - one of the people in the rather militant anti-fascist crowd that day is now the leader of sunderland council Paul Watson. Shame he's a full-on Labour bod now.
> 
> View attachment 16032


Ive got 40 big black and white photos of this event.....some of the characters featured would make great extras in a Fraggle Rock movie..One in particular is hilarious...Ill try and upload it tomorrow..


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## bignose1 (Jan 19, 2012)

Heres some of those photos from that demo


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## malatesta32 (Jan 19, 2012)

the orangu-fash in full voice. remarkable!


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## krink (Jan 19, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Ive got 40 big black and white photos of this event.....some of the characters featured would make great extras in a Fraggle Rock movie..One in particular is hilarious...Ill try and upload it tomorrow..



They are excellent and it also reminds me how town used to look - I'd forgot about victoria wines being there

Would love to see the whole set if possible though you need to re-label them...newcastle indeed it's all in glorious Sunderland!!


----------



## bignose1 (Jan 19, 2012)

krink said:


> They are excellent and it also reminds me how town used to look - I'd forgot about victoria wines being there
> 
> Would love to see the whole set if possible though you need to re-label them...newcastle indeed it's all in glorious Sunderland!!


Aghhhh sorry will correct. Its just that during that period I was up int North East quite a lot. I know how touchy people are up there about mis-labelling. Its akin to a Manc being called a Scouser....also as Ive said earlier I do fancy the skin girl look..not in a fetish way( I dont think..well I havnt looked!) Those two in the pictures might stretch it a bit..think one is Kath Murphy and.....is the other Janet Appleyard?. In fact I ve just had another look and theres three of them.....and they all look related-ish...mmmm


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 19, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Aghhhh sorry will correct. Its just that during that period I was up int North East quite a lot. I know how touchy people are up there about mis-labelling. Its akin to a Manc being called a Scouser....also as Ive said earlier I do fancy the skin girl look..not in a fetish way( I dont think..well I havnt looked!) Those two in the pictures might stretch it a bit..think one is Kath Murphy and.....is the other Janet Appleyard?. In fact I ve just had another look and theres three of them.....and they all look related-ish...mmmm



weren't you banged up with one of the North East's finest; Kev Turner ?


----------



## bignose1 (Jan 19, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> weren't you banged up with one of the North East's finest; Kev Turner ?


Yes...and Ive got a photo of him when he was quite young..looks like a studio shot...maybe he was doing glamour..Ill dig it out..still an ugly twat though..


----------



## krink (Jan 19, 2012)

kev turner - the daft twat is still lurking about he turned up as one of those happy-hardcore rave djs.


----------



## bignose1 (Jan 19, 2012)

krink said:


> kev turner - the daft twat is still lurking about he turned up as one of those happy-hardcore rave djs.


Hasnt he yo-yo'd between rave and nazirock for quite a while..last I heard he was back doing (and badly) the racist shite...excuse me if I say it and most pointers would say Im wrong (tattoos on face for one) but he is quite an intelligent and reasonably articulate twat...but that counts for nowt I suppose when you look back as I suppose theres fuck all clever in following an ideology thats been twatted pretty much all over the show....oh eck Franco hung about a bit and Muckerlini did a 20 spot..well you know what I mean....


----------



## krink (Jan 19, 2012)

yes, he's still with skullhead mk2 who are not racist or nazis, honest guv. I mean, you'd at least change the name of the band...oh and he says he is a Buddhist now too. Oddly enough I was watching a band a few weeks back featuring Spin who was in skullhead but he has publicly renounced his past.


----------



## bignose1 (Jan 19, 2012)

krink said:


> yes, he's still with skullhead mk2 who are not racist or nazis, honest guv. I mean, you'd at least change the name of the band...oh and he says he is a Buddhist now too. Oddly enough I was watching a band a few weeks back featuring Spin who was in skullhead but he has publicly renounced his past.


That would be one hell of a rep to shake off...I mean who would go to their gigs now...sounds pretty schizoid


----------



## bignose1 (Jan 19, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> That would be one hell of a rep to shake off...I mean who would go to their gigs now...sounds pretty schizoid


Cant believe hes a buddah...


----------



## Fedayn (Jan 19, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> also as Ive said earlier I do fancy the skin girl look..not in a fetish way( I dont think..well I havnt looked!) Those two in the pictures might stretch it a bit..think one is Kath Murphy and.....is the other Janet Appleyard?.



It's a damn sexy look, when it's done properly with a proper haircut not the bleaced monstrosities tney have. Cathy Murphy, who lived on Winnallthorpe in Coventry, is the former girlfriend of Simon Curtis ex Skrewdriver Security and latterly Adrian Blundell former Aryan Resistance Movement 'leader' in the West Mids.
The fella all in black in the centre of the first and third pics is also from Coventry, Michael Such? I think, who lived on Severn Road.



krink said:


> yes, he's still with skullhead mk2 who are not racist or nazis, honest guv. I mean, you'd at least change the name of the band...oh and he says he is a Buddhist now too. Oddly enough I was watching a band a few weeks back featuring Spin who was in skullhead but he has publicly renounced his past.



Calls himself MC Techno T now he's in the 'Happy Hardcore' scene. Hasn't he come out of the closet?


----------



## bignose1 (Jan 19, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Cant believe hes a buddah...


Unless hes churned over a new leaf


----------



## krink (Jan 19, 2012)

no don't encourage him davecinzano!


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## bignose1 (Jan 19, 2012)

Can we have a caption competition for photo 9 (see above) Prize for best.....post 1851


----------



## krink (Jan 19, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Can we have a caption competition for photo 9 (see above) Prize for best.....



this one (i've re-labelled this version)


----------



## bignose1 (Jan 19, 2012)

krink said:


> this one (i've re-labelled this version)
> 
> View attachment 16058


Yep that one...


----------



## bignose1 (Jan 19, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Yep that one...


----------



## bignose1 (Jan 19, 2012)

krink said:


> this one (i've re-labelled this version)
> 
> View attachment 16058


Thhhhrrrillllerrrr.....


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## love detective (Jan 19, 2012)

krink said:


> this one (i've re-labelled this version)
> 
> View attachment 16058



'who you gonna call - (1)18'


----------



## intersol32 (Jan 19, 2012)

krink said:


> this one (i've re-labelled this version)
> 
> View attachment 16058



John Tyndall: "..and now ladies and gentlemen, I'd like to introduce Marcel Marceau who will mime the entire BNP policy on race and immigration..."

Fascist with moustache: "...will he also be doing 'man stuck in a wind tunnel'?.."


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## Red Storm (Jan 19, 2012)

Gary Tumulty Salford BNP organiser is DJ Gary T a bounce and hardcore DJ haha. He had a myspace at one point.


----------



## Red Storm (Jan 19, 2012)

Why did AFA use a triangle as the symbol? Is it a 'red wedge' or does it represent red concentration camp prisoners?


----------



## Red Storm (Jan 19, 2012)

I'm gonna start a flikr for all these pics. Will be useful to me and interesting for others I think.

I wont tag the pictures with names but if authorised by that person or on good authority I will. 

I'll put dates etc on it so any help with them would be good. 

I'll sort something out for a way for people to send pics to have them put up. 

Bignose - I really want to get pics of your stickers!


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## malatesta32 (Jan 19, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Cant believe hes a buddah...



it probably means hes fat and bald!


----------



## Red Storm (Jan 19, 2012)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/antifascist/


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## intersol32 (Jan 19, 2012)

krink said:


> this one (i've re-labelled this version)
> 
> View attachment 16058



Just out of interest. Who was the skinhead in the camouflage jacket and adidas trainers? He was partly in the Waterloo TV footage with a bag shielding his head from flying bottles.

Used to see him around quite a lot, along with Biggs, Simon Chadwick etc.


----------



## Red Storm (Jan 19, 2012)

If anyone has any pictures of anything relevant send them to salford@hotmail.co.uk


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## bignose1 (Jan 20, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> I'm gonna start a flikr for all these pics. Will be useful to me and interesting for others I think.
> 
> I wont tag the pictures with names but if authorised by that person or on good authority I will.
> 
> ...


No probs.... Im busy this weekend but going to have to get a grip next week...are you local?


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## bignose1 (Jan 20, 2012)

Heres the lovely Kev Turner...on his best side


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## TopCat (Jan 20, 2012)

Not a good look that.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jan 20, 2012)

malatesta32 said:
			
		

> i think its a good read and it is very funny in parts. for insight into militant antifascism go elsewhere but as a portrait of some of the sad characters on the far right, its pretty unbeatable!



Have you any idea who the mystery Mr 'X' journo might be? When described as beardy I thought of Bushell, but didn't think him that far gone to have fash connections.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 20, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> Have you any idea who the mystery Mr 'X' journo might be? When described as beardy I thought of Bushell, but didn't think him that far gone to have fash connections.


i'll give you a clew: the initials of the journalist are G B

frankly it's not much of a fucking mystery


----------



## malatesta32 (Jan 20, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> Have you any idea who the mystery Mr 'X' journo might be? When described as beardy I thought of Bushell, but didn't think him that far gone to have fash connections.


well collins wasnt able to name him but searchlight were in a court case with bushell, he has a beard and a history of far right acquaintances, works with murdoch - all signs point to maybe!!!!


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## ska invita (Jan 20, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Heres the lovely Kev Turner...on his best side


Looks a fair bit like David Cameron to me


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## SpineyNorman (Jan 20, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Heres the lovely Kev Turner...on his best side


looks like a teenager who, frustrated with his lack of facial hair, has decided to draw some sideburns in biro


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## malatesta32 (Jan 21, 2012)

good stuff from eire AFA!
http://www.scribd.com/afaireland


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## Red About Town (Jan 21, 2012)

Was there any links between Ireland AFA and the AFA organisation in Britain?


----------



## Red Storm (Jan 21, 2012)

Red About Town said:


> Was there any links between Ireland AFA and the AFA organisation in Britain?



Yeah there was. I'm sure someone will be able to tell you more.


----------



## Red Storm (Jan 21, 2012)

http://ourhistory-hayes.blogspot.com/2009/10/arthur-groves-cable-street.html

Short story on AFA if you scroll down.


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## Deareg (Jan 21, 2012)

Red About Town said:


> Was there any links between Ireland AFA and the AFA organisation in Britain?


Some of the older members were involved with Red Action and  AFA in the late 80's early 90's.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Jan 21, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> http://ourhistory-hayes.blogspot.com/2009/10/arthur-groves-cable-street.html
> 
> Short story on AFA if you scroll down.



Amusing to read that AFA were apparently persuaded by Quakers against 're-educating' some fascists at Uxbridge.

Lucky bastards.

Can't imagine the peaceniks having the same influence subsequent to the hardliner 'coup' in 1989 though.


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## bignose1 (Jan 21, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> Amusing to read that AFA were apparently persuaded by Quakers against 're-educating' some fascists at Uxbridge.
> 
> Lucky bastards.
> 
> Can't imagine the peaceniks having the same influence subsequent to the hardliner 'coup' in 1989 though.


Stuart Millson ex Federation of Conservative Students latterly of the BNP. During NUS national conference in Blackpool circa 1984/5 he proclaimed from the conference floor ''Hang Nelson Mandela''. Unfortunately he had to walk past the Manchester Poly contingent which he did unsuccessfully. A call to ban certain delegates of said Poly for taking such action was defeated after a impassioned speech by myself in its defence. The MCR Poly delegates recieved tumultous applause and couldnt pay for a drink for the rest of the week. I actually think, on reading what they were saying the FCS at that time were more viscious and unpleasant than the BNP/NF et al.


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## imposs1904 (Jan 24, 2012)

I thought one or two people on this thread might be interested in this article by Ian Walker that appeared in New Society in 1980:

Simon says

It's just a short piece covering Excalibur House, which was the NF's HQ in Hackney in the late seventies and early eighties, and about the infiltration of the NF by an anarchist who worked on the NF's security team defending EH.

I'm a longstanding fan of Walker's work and I've been putting his articles on the net for a few years now. (If and when I find them.) If you like his style, you can also check out some of his other New Society articles at the following link: Ian Walker's Other Britain articles.


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## Fozzie Bear (Jan 25, 2012)

That's a nice piece imposs - does anyone know when the NF left "Excalibur House"? Seems to have been the main prize in their post 79 factional fighting.

The building would be worth millions today... (it's now a language school, ha ha!)


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## The39thStep (Jan 26, 2012)

imposs1904 said:


> I thought one or two people on this thread might be interested in this article by Ian Walker that appeared in New Society in 1980:
> 
> Simon says
> 
> ...



Simon is the anarchist infiltrater and Day is the fash. Interesting challenge to the classic fash are all petty bourgeoise clap trap  that we get on here from some posters



> Simon, a middle class grammar school boy with a lower second in political philosophy,


 


> Day even invited him round for tea once to his bottom floor flat on a Hoxton council estate.


----------



## malatesta32 (Jan 28, 2012)

shirtfront uk combat 18 thread is bubbling along nicely. 2 posters supplying plenty of info from the sargant camp and the browning camp. must read!!!!


----------



## Red Storm (Jan 28, 2012)

Just got my new copy of BtF. 

I've noticed that one of the first pages is an extract from an interview BBC2 did with Mickey Fenn for a documentary in May 1992. 

What documentary was this?


----------



## miktheword (Jan 28, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> Just got my new copy of BtF.
> 
> I've noticed that one of the first pages is an extract from an interview BBC2 did with Mickey Fenn for a documentary in May 1992.
> 
> What documentary was this?


 
Fighting Talk , Micky Fenn interview is at the start of Part 2 on Youtube.  On other sites too, including TAL, I think.


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## Red Storm (Jan 29, 2012)

miktheword said:


> Fighting Talk , Micky Fenn interview is at the start of Part 2 on Youtube.  On other sites too, including TAL, I think.



Ah it's the open spaces one. I didn't realise it was on the BBC.


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## malatesta32 (Jan 30, 2012)

i cant believe this but an almost coherent argument on shirtfront about EDL/islamist!!! no really!!
http://wwwDOTst0rmfrontdotorg/forum/t859502-6/

mods! dont know how to break link etc


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## malatesta32 (Jan 30, 2012)

shirtfront combat 18 thread is also full of info on sargant!


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## Red Storm (Jan 30, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> shirtfront combat 18 thread is also full of info on sargant!



Link?


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## malatesta32 (Jan 30, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> Link?


wwwDOTst0rmfrontDOTorg/forum/t860216-5/
full of info on his grassing as well as framing ian stuart after 'stabbing a queer.' incredible. anyone know where sargent is and when hes out? i think he got 18 years so he shd be out soon.


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## malatesta32 (Jan 30, 2012)

also, C18 AFA confrontations seem few. enkell arms and old street do mentioned in white riot and a couple of incidents in BTF. must have been more surely?


----------



## Deareg (Jan 30, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> also, C18 AFA confrontations seem few. enkell arms and old street do mentioned in white riot and a couple of incidents in BTF. must have been more surely?


Loads of "minor" skirmishes which left quite a few of them badly injured.


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## intersol32 (Jan 30, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> shirtfront uk combat 18 thread is bubbling along nicely. 2 posters supplying plenty of info from the sargant camp and the browning camp. must read!!!!



A couple of posters are really spilling the beans on there. Had to stop after a while as my head was aching. Some amusing stuff about the Sargent brothers and the branch, particularly how the SB kept using them to try to lift people in possession of racist CDs and that 'Black Copy' of the C18 mag. Seems like they'd attempted a bust several times only to find Steve Sargent being the only one holding the goods, so had to let him go.


----------



## manny-p (Jan 30, 2012)

intersol32 said:


> A couple of posters are really spilling the beans on there. Had to stop after a while as my head was aching. Some amusing stuff about the Sargent brothers and the branch, particularly how the SB kept using them to try to lift people in possession of racist CDs and that 'Black Copy' of the C18 mag. Seems like they'd attempted a bust several times only to find Steve Sargent being the only one holding the goods, so had to let him go.


Is Steve Sargent locked up aswell? Or is he no longer politically active?


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## malatesta32 (Jan 30, 2012)

no he wasnt implicated. he was always more propaganda than physical with lots of very tedious fash zines like the thors plonker etc. he comes across as a sad loser.


----------



## malatesta32 (Jan 30, 2012)

i also think he talked quite a bit to lowles cos he is quoted a lot in WhiteRiot.


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## malatesta32 (Jan 30, 2012)

Deareg said:


> Loads of "minor" skirmishes which left quite a few of them badly injured.



come on you tease! details, juicy details!


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## LiamO (Jan 30, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> come on you tease! details, juicy details!



If he told you all... he'd have to kill you.


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## intersol32 (Jan 30, 2012)

Deareg said:


> Loads of "minor" skirmishes which left quite a few of them badly injured.



The Bolton Loyalist March (with C18 doing their security I think) was another one. This is outlined briefly in BTF and No Retreat as I recall. As East Midlands had no input regarding the organising of the attempt to stop it, I can only describe events from my own point of view.

There was about a dozen or so of us, who'd travelled up to Manchester then got a lift with Bolton people who took us the rest of the way. We'd waited in a pub for what seemed like bloody ages. Finally someone came in and gave the word to move, and I remember being directed across a large car park. Not far away was a street leading up a hill to where we could see lines of cops, and the Fash plus Loyalist bandsmen (the latter playing music and forming up).

We all moved forwards and I remember some guys on the left-hand side walking towards us. One was wearing a totenkopf/C18 t-shirt. I remember his face, he had short brown hair with a fringe and he was smiling at us. He quickly stopped as everyone went at them and they were sort of pushed up against a wall taking a kicking. The funniest thing at this moment was seeing 'N' one of the Birmingham lads run across the street to aim a high kick at one of them, and splitting his jeans straight along the crotch.

The madness was added to as I looked up the road and the cops (along with several mounted police) came rushing at us. By this point some of the AFA people had got closer to the march and were being hemmed in (I think?) next to a church which had a wall and fence overlooking a drop into another car park on the side (correct me if I'm wrong here). As the cops were pushing into them I saw a number of people climb and lower themselves over the fence and drop down. Impressive because it was a fair way down.

Forward of me in the street, by about three steps, was PB from Leeds AFA. I watched as a police dog handler's Alsatian (with its fur almost standing up on end) grab PB by the arm, and he just dropped to the floor. It was pretty fucking horrible. I later was told he'd been arrested, charged and was finally given a prison sentence. By the time of the mauling by the mutt, people were streaming back down towards me with the cops giving chase.

We left the area after meeting up again. Laughing about the Brummie's split jeans, and being told that the march had been cancelled. Although PB's arrest, and hearing that he'd been injured, sobered the mood somewhat.


----------



## malatesta32 (Jan 30, 2012)

great stuff. thanks for that!


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 31, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> great stuff. thanks for that!



Is this all going in your book?


----------



## LiamO (Jan 31, 2012)

_In response to malatesta’s appeal for first-hand accounts I would like to offer the following. It is not about a violent street confrontation but about a meeting which precipitated and shaped later events. If you are gonna read it, you might wanna get yourself a cuppa first. Malatesta you can feel free to use it for your book or print it out and wipe your arse on it. _

It is my recollection of one small little incident which, for me, captures the mood and atmosphere of the times and also had a fundamental ripple-out effect…

One Saturday afternoon in 1989(?) a meeting was called at the Red Rose in Finsbury Park to re-launch AFA. There was much residual (and mutual) suspicion between Red Action (and their fellow-travellers) and the semi-state sector (Newham Monitoring Group and various ‘right-on’ lefties) from previous history - but it was a political and operational imperative that a way to work together was found.

In fairness to those centred around the NMP, there were some very capable, principled, hard-working activists among them, but there were fundamental political, tactical, strategic and social differences between them and us – and there were also some of (what we saw as) the worst examples of hysterical, white middle-class, lifestyle lefties .

Thus we were all on our best behaviour even though it was clear that some of our essentially white, middle-class ‘comrades’ were bristling with self-righteous indignation and just looking for an excuse to walk out shaking their heads at what they perceived to be the somewhat rough and ready manners and manner of our lot.

The NMP and their allies turned up with somebody new in tow. He was a young black community activist from Broadwater Farm. I think his name was Rupert. It was clear that he was their new working class champion… and he was black too don’t you know. Tbh it was a bit embarrassing watching them fawn over him and he had obviously been fore-warned about us. I was immediately struck at how their reactions to, and behaviour around, him were at odds with their hostility to many of our own, more hairy-arsed, comrades and the only difference I could see was skin colour.

Our reaction to him – as it was to anybody else - was to see what he had to say and offer rather than making any such judgements based on where he was from or his colour. If he was sound then he was a sound no matter – and equally, if he was a prick then he was a prick and we could not really give a fuck what estate or background he was from. He looked and dressed like a Norf London geezer rather than a Lefty, but he _did_ arrive wearing a beret .

Anyways the meeting got underway and was very polite to begin with as we all danced around the sensibilities of others and various differences in strategies and tactics, but the underlying tension was never far from the surface. The MNP were at pains to get Rupert’s input and opinion on everything , on account of him knowing the word ‘on the street’ and everything (I assume they thought we lived in a reservation for lumpy proles or something. But then we were mostly white so what would we know about the problems ‘the black community’ faced).

Still progress was made over the next (interminable) hour and a half as each side outlined where they felt things had collapsed in the past and how mutual ground must be found. It seemed to me that every time one of our mob spoke the reaction was to their language and speaking style rather than what they said. I fell foul of this when I referred to something as ‘clearly a load of old bollocks’. Some of us may have included a ‘fuck’ or two as well but only as conversational punctuation, certainly not directed at any person. At this point a particularly shrill middle-class woman jumped up and interrupted me (which was something we had been at pains not to do to them).

She started banging on about swearing, how offensive she found it and how she could not imagine sending the likes of me in to speak to a Asian women’s group. I replied neither could I and why would anybody send me to do a job that would obviously be more suited _to_ a woman and probably an Asian one. Surely this was a matter of horses for courses and that was the idea of this meeting? We felt that in the past the Left had concentrated far too much on aiming it’s activity and propaganda at the _victims_ of racism. We were proposing that as well as this AFA should work in and among the potential_ recruits_ of racist organisations - the disaffected white working class – and that required a different skillset and language.

Neither was it a matter of either ‘jaw, jaw’ or ‘war, war’ but of both. Not of propaganda Vs street activity but of both together. I finished by saying I was sorry she did not like the way we spoke but that we all had roles to play, I did not see mine and her roles overlapping too much and if she was so offended by a couple of swear words then frankly I did not give a flying fuck.
There was uproar and I caught a sideways-look from some of our senior people as I had set off the very thing we had all been told to avoid – and it was now in full swing.

A shouting match broke out and the Chair (one of them of course, as they would have sulked if it was one of us) struggled to hold it together and to ‘Chair’ rather than join in on one side. Suddenly Rupert arose from his front row seat. Immediately the Chair demanded silence for his new Comrade from the Farm. Given that about a dozen people were all waiting to speak this was not exactly how things should be. But this was Rupert. He was from Broadwater Farm. He was working class AND black which made him ‘special’. The NMP lot fell silent as their champion held the floor.

In fairness we were all interested in what he had to say too.

“ I tried to come to this meeting with an open mind. We are all in this thing together, y’know what I mean? So despite what I was told about people beforehand , I come to meet people, make friends and find ways we could work together. I have to say I am absolutely gutted by what’s gone on here today.” Well said Rupert they enthused and nodded knowingly to each other.

“From the very start there was a bad atmosphere and a bad attitude from some people in this room. Look at it now - you could cut the atmosphere with a knife. This ain’t no way to carry on, people.” And on he went. By now the murmurings of enthusiastic endorsement were becoming more pronounced and they were clapping his every remark as he warmed to his task.

“It’s obvious that one group in here are genuine. One group are ready and willing to work together. But the other group don’t wanna listen to no-one else, they just think the other mob are wrong all the time. They’ve basically got a BAD attitude. They are just insulting. It’s pathetic and it’s just plain wrong”. By now they were besides themselves with glee and cheered his every word as he tore into the ‘bad guys’.

Until, that is… when Rupert turned round… looked at them with a look of pure “WTF” and said “What’s the matter with you people? What are you lot clapping for? I ain’t talking about THEM… I’m talking about YOU!”

This stopped them in their tracks and they sat open-mouthed as he continued (they could not interrupt him of course, or shout him down. How could they? After all he was THEIR champion. He was working class, he was black and (I don’t know if I’ve mentioned this but) he was from Broadwater Farm.

“All you lot seem to care about is if people use big words and talk like you or not. If they don’t, you don’t listen. Why can’t you just listen to what they’re saying, instead of how they say it? My first experience with the NF was when I got hit on the head with a bottle and called ‘nigger’ on Tottenham High road – by some geezer who two days before had been in our flat fitting the gas. Now if those days are coming back with the BNP, I know who I want watching my back and it ain’t fackin you lot… ”

The loud silence was by now only broken by the laughter we were all doing our best (unsuccessfully) to hold in. All I could see was the shock on their faces, the anguished looks of betrayal - and the shoulders of several burly men shaking as they tried to restrict themselves to a polite chuckle instead of the belly-laugh such a turnaround deserved.
He finished by apologising if he had hurt anybody’s feelings but said this shit was too important to let people’s feelings get in the way and sat down to a big round applause – from us.

Strangely, this frank reality check had a very positive effect on the proceedings. Of course some of them would never get over their own prejudices and offended sensibilities but it sort of shook the best of them from their self-constructed cocoon and they began to engage positively. I doubt this would have happened without Rupert’s intervention.

The relationship between RA, DAM etc and those in the ‘nicer’ anti-racist sector was always a little strained, but good people from both sides found ways to work together in common cause for a considerable length of time.

Funnily enough, I don’t recall ever seeing Rupert in their company again.

But if you are reading this Rupert, I salute you and I still laugh like fuck when I recall the moment you - spurred by honesty and an ability to see and state the blindingly obvious - turned on your ‘sponsors’.


----------



## malatesta32 (Jan 31, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> Is this all going in your book?



yeah i want to use stuff that wasnt covered in BTF - which is more northern based as well as post AFA with EDL of late. i have had some great stuff from folks so far - and also liamO i wanted to nick that post you did ages ago which was rather entertaining. i think i PMd you. also that tale of intersols of the feller ripping his breeks! gold that feller!


----------



## malatesta32 (Jan 31, 2012)

cracking that liam!


----------



## cantsin (Jan 31, 2012)

LiamO said:


> _In response to malatesta’s appeal for first-hand accounts I would like to offer the following. It is not about a violent street confrontation but about a meeting which precipitated and shaped later events. If you are gonna read it, you might wanna get yourself a cuppa first. Malatesta you can feel free to use it for your book or print it out and wipe your arse on it. _
> 
> top read,. and the 'being called out by middle class lefty twonks for swearing etc ' will be familiar to many from that era - but I'm a bit surprised by the NMP picture you paint - I remember some of Asian lads from NMP being pretty game / and sound ? ( didnt know lots of them, or any white associates of theirs , but there was a few of them who used to be always out and about it seemed )


----------



## intersol32 (Jan 31, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> yeah i want to use stuff that wasnt covered in BTF - which is more northern based as well as post AFA with EDL of late. i have had some great stuff from folks so far - and also liamO i wanted to nick that post you did ages ago which was rather entertaining. i think i PMd you. also that tale of intersols of the feller ripping his breeks! gold that feller!



No problem if you want to use that, or any of the other stuff I've posted.


----------



## Spud Murfy (Jan 31, 2012)

Fozzie Bear said:


> That's a nice piece imposs - does anyone know when the NF left "Excalibur House"? Seems to have been the main prize in their post 79 factional fighting.
> 
> The building would be worth millions today... (it's now a language school, ha ha!)



Excalibur House was gutted by fire while it was still occupied. A quantity of NF literature was salvaged and one of their more imaginative papersellers was later seen at the top of Brick Lane trying to sell scorched copies of the Turner Diaries as 'genuine fire-damaged' ones. Soon after that the NF vacated the premises.

'Simon Day's' experiences of infiltrating the NF were written up in the brief-lived anarchist paper 'Xtra!'.


----------



## Red Storm (Jan 31, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> as post AFA with EDL of late.



That part will be pretty boring.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 31, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> That part will be pretty boring.



 short though


----------



## intersol32 (Jan 31, 2012)

(Get the kettle on then...)

The attack by Fascists on a Radical bookshop in Nottingham in 1994, was significant in helping galvanise people towards a more militant anti-fascist stance in the East Midlands. Places like Heanor, Ilkeston, Mansfield, Sutton etc had seen surges in Fascist activity in previous years. Especially when Donaldson had relocated there after being booted out of London. There were still Blood and Honour gigs and other activities, which had kept up his legacy after his demise.

"Mushroom Bookshop" had been a part of the Left wing landscape around the area and was a great place for picking up newspapers like Red Action, Class War, Republican News and other stuff. But on the 15th of January that year a bus load of Fascists from Notts and Derbyshire had diverted into Nottingham city center when the gig they were travelling to down south had been cancelled. They made a bee-line straight across the Market Square and into the Hockley area where the shop was located. Many of them shouting abuse at people, sieg-heiling and so forth. On reaching the target many of them steamed in and started assaulting members of staff and customers, whilst trashing the place. Computers were wrecked and a fire extinguisher was thrown through the front window. Due to the ad-hoc nature of the attack around 39 arrests were made as they tried to make an escape.

Out of these only around 9 people were actually brought to trial. During the case East Midlands AFA had kept a close eye both inside and outside the courtroom. Due to this we noticed that the accused Fascists and their supporters were always travelling down in the same transit van, and parking across on some waste ground turned parking lot (which is now taken up by the Capitol One building). When the final day of the trial came, we had people sat in a pub round the corner, a couple in the public gallery and two of us doing circuits around the nearby streets. One of the first things to do was immobilise their vehicle, so three of us in a scout car pulled up into the parking lot next to their van. I gave 'D' an old lock-knife I had and he opened his side door, knelt down and began to slash the tyres. Unfortunately the knife was a bit shit and at one point he bent the blade back, cutting his own fingers with a loud "fuck!". Anyway, job done we felt certain the bastards weren't going to go anywhere that day.

The usual settling in, watching and waiting wore on and I could tell people were getting restless. Plus there was the typical eye of suspicion from the pub landlord at having to serve 30 people halves of coke for two hours. But as I came out the bar and walked down the street towards the court I saw one of our female members who'd been sat inside come running up: "they're coming out!". So I turned and ran like fuck, to stick my head round the door and notify everyone that it was all on. We'd briefed people the day before about not rushing straight in front of the courthouse (due to CCTV and obvious Press cameras) so we took a back route behind the court and up a side street into the car park. On entering it we saw just two guys next to the van, and their jaws just fucking dropped. We didn't know it but the other several members had been sent down and they had no back-up with them - these were the only ones left. With no other main exit from the car park I saw one of them, who was dressed in a Crombie, run and launch himself at the top of a wall. It must have been the adrenaline because he caught the top and managed to scramble over onto the canal walkway as three guys were trying to grab his legs.

Tempting as it was, some people held back so as not to create overkill, and watched as a bunch of us approached what was probably at that point "the loneliest man in the world". He began by saying in a terrified voice "I'm not a Nazi!...I just give lifts to boneheads!" (always amazes me how the fucking master race are quick to deny their ideology under pressure...I don't think if I was cornered in the same way I'd be screaming "don't hit me! I'm not a Socialist!"). Anyway, immediately afterwards I remember a few of us hoofing him around the car park whilst he desperately grabbed onto wing mirrors and bumpers to steady himself. He was originally quite smartly dressed and turned out, but by then I recall him as a mess, half crouched in a puddle with blood pouring from his mouth as someone kicked him repeatedly in the ribs. One of our Leicester lads was a kickboxer with a massive square head, and I remember him swinging a kick but just missing him. I was so close I actually felt the wind from his boot on my face. Also, despite some of the Brummie lads saying it looked "a bit too much", it was later stated that a couple of them couldn't resist giving him a few digs and saying "say No Surrender now then you bastard!".

As we walked back out, the parking attendent, who throughout all the commotion carried on sweeping the ramp and puffing on a fag just said "c'mon now lads. he's had enough".

Unfortunately the getaway had a few problems, when one of our lads ('B') was heading off, he took a wrong turn and was lifted by the cops who caught him with blood on his hands (which later secured a jail sentence). Another lad managed to hide under a car while the cops hunted around for him.

Later that day. Local TV news showed the Fascists defiantly walking into court, with the hapless individual coming up the rear smirking and giving a finger to the cameras not knowing what would befall him. The voiceover pointed out "this man was later hospitalized by political opponents".


----------



## Red Storm (Jan 31, 2012)

Scary how two out of these three stories has resulted in a jailing.


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## LiamO (Jan 31, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> Scary how two out of these three stories has resulted in a jailing.



Yeah. Fuckin Northern amateurs


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## LiamO (Jan 31, 2012)

cantsin said:


> _top read,. and the 'being called out by middle class lefty twonks for swearing etc ' will be familiar to many from that era - but I'm a bit surprised by the NMP picture you paint - I remember some of Asian lads from NMP being pretty game / and sound ? ( didnt know lots of them, or any white associates of theirs , but there was a few of them who used to be always out and about it seemed_



I would direct you to this part of my post



LiamO said:


> In fairness to those *centred around* the NMP, *there were some very capable, principled, hard-working activists among them*, but there were fundamental political, tactical, strategic and social differences between them and us – and there were also some of (what we saw as) the worst examples of hysterical, white middle-class, lifestyle lefties.



It's probably not fair to label these people as NMP members/supporters (there was CARF and believe it or not LARF as well) - but the NMP were the group around whom they gathered. People like Unmesh, who is now a Labour councillor, were always gameball.


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## LiamO (Jan 31, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> i have had some great stuff from folks so far - and also liamO i wanted to nick that post you did ages ago which was rather entertaining.



fire away Maltesta.


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## Spanky Longhorn (Jan 31, 2012)

intersol32 said:


> Tempting as it was, some people held back so as not to create overkill, and watched as a bunch of us approached what was probably at that point "the loneliest man in the world". He began by saying in a terrified voice *"I'm not a Nazi!...I just give lifts to boneheads!"* (always amazes me how the fucking master race are quick to deny their ideology under pressure...I don't think if I was cornered in the same way I'd be screaming "don't hit me! I'm not a Socialist!"). Anyway, immediately afterwards I remember a few of us hoofing him around the car park whilst he desperately grabbed onto wing mirrors and bumpers to steady himself. He was originally quite smartly dressed and turned out, but by then I recall him as a mess, half crouched in a puddle with blood pouring from his mouth as someone kicked him repeatedly in the ribs. One of our Leicester lads was a kickboxer with a massive square head, and I remember him swinging a kick but just missing him. I was so close I actually felt the wind from his boot on my face. Also, despite some of the Brummie lads saying it looked "a bit too much", it was later stated that a couple of them couldn't resist giving him a few digs and saying "say No Surrender now then you bastard!".
> 
> As we walked back out, the parking attendent, who throughout all the commotion carried on sweeping the ramp and puffing on a fag just said "c'mon now lads. he's had enough".
> .


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## intersol32 (Feb 1, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> Scary how two out of these three stories has resulted in a jailing.



Speaking as an East Midlands member, we only had that one conviction in over 4 years of activity. Some people had been lifted from time to time, but evidence was either weak or witnesses had refused to come forwards, so the accused were let go without charge. I'd say that was pretty good odds considering how much we managed to do in that time. I'm also quite proud to say that between the whole of Nottingham, Leicester and Mansfield we were never caught wrong footed and turned over, as I'm sure the Fash would have liked to have done. The Fash themselves on the other hand, suffered badly in terms of both arrests and physical assaults.


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## bignose1 (Feb 1, 2012)

intersol32 said:


> Speaking as an East Midlands member, we only had that one conviction in over 4 years of activity. Some people had been lifted from time to time, but evidence was either weak or witnesses had refused to come forwards, so the accused were let go without charge. I'd say that was pretty good odds considering how much we managed to do in that time. I'm also quite proud to say that between the whole of Nottingham, Leicester and Mansfield we were never caught wrong footed and turned over, as I'm sure the Fash would have liked to have done. The Fash themselves on the other hand, suffered badly in terms of both arrests and physical assaults.


Even Robin Hood's mob took nickings round there!


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## bignose1 (Feb 1, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Even Robin Hood's mob took nickings round there!


As sher-would


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## krink (Feb 1, 2012)

i demand a pun-filter be installed on this forum immediately.


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## bignose1 (Feb 1, 2012)

krink said:


> i demand a pun-filter be installed on this forum immediately.


Wont hap-pun


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## bignose1 (Feb 1, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Wont hap-pun


Ive got a couple of stories Ill post when I get to work(why should I do it in my own time) You know the being chased by a monster but your laughing as you run. Near misses and stumbling onto something...out takes if you want...


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## DaveCinzano (Feb 1, 2012)

The gag reel, even (quick - somebody call Sheridan)


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## ayatollah (Feb 1, 2012)

intersol32 said:


> (Get the kettle on then...)
> 
> Tempting as it was, some people held back so as not to create overkill, and watched as a bunch of us approached what was probably at that point "the loneliest man in the world". He began by saying in a terrified voice "I'm not a Nazi!...I just give lifts to boneheads!" (always amazes me how the fucking master race are quick to deny their ideology under pressure...I don't think if I was cornered in the same way I'd be screaming "don't hit me! I'm not a Socialist!").
> 
> .



You are the hardest man in the universe then intersol. I on the other hand remember making my way back ( to the Cottons Gardens IS headquarters to bum the bus fare home)through the East End of London on my own after getting out of jail after being arrested on an anti fascist do in circa 1976. Unfortunately the NF hadn't yet fully dispersed - and I was suddenly surrounded by about 10 Union Jack wearing boneheads - MY pockets still packed with LOTS of Lefty papers and leaflets. "Who you ?" grunted a bonehead. Now, was my answer:

a) I'm a fucking Red anti fascist hero you Nazi twats and I'll take you all on !"

OR

b) "oh hi, I'm a tourist here , and I've been collecting some great interesting stuff off everyone today... have you got any literature I can have ?"

You'll NEVER guess !


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## LiamO (Feb 1, 2012)

ayatollah said:


> You are the hardest man in the universe then intersol. I on the other hand remember making my way back ( to the Cottons Gardens IS headquarters to bum the bus fare home)through the East End of London on my own after getting out of jail after being arrested on an anti fascist do in circa 1976. Unfortunately the NF hadn't yet fully dispersed - and I was suddenly surrounded by about 10 Union Jack wearing boneheads - MY pockets still packed with LOTS of Lefty papers and leaflets. "Who you ?" grunted a bonehead. Now, was my answer:
> 
> a) I'm a fucking Red anti fascist hero you Nazi twats and I'll take you all on !"
> 
> ...



By whatever means necessary 

In fairness though, you HAD a chance to blag it and choose discretion as the better part of valour. Good thinking though.


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## intersol32 (Feb 1, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Ive got a couple of stories Ill post when I get to work(why should I do it in my own time) You know the being chased by a monster but your laughing as you run. Near misses and stumbling onto something...out takes if you want...



More!


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## intersol32 (Feb 1, 2012)

ayatollah said:


> You are the hardest man in the universe then intersol. I on the other hand remember making my way back ( to the Cottons Gardens IS headquarters to bum the bus fare home)through the East End of London on my own after getting out of jail after being arrested on an anti fascist do in circa 1976. Unfortunately the NF hadn't yet fully dispersed - and I was suddenly surrounded by about 10 Union Jack wearing boneheads - MY pockets still packed with LOTS of Lefty papers and leaflets. "Who you ?" grunted a bonehead. Now, was my answer:
> 
> a) I'm a fucking Red anti fascist hero you Nazi twats and I'll take you all on !"
> 
> ...



Good story and nicely handled. Although I doubt if I'd have had the bravado to stick my chest out and go for a). It's quite likely I would've just thought "oh fuck" and taken the kicking.


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## Red Storm (Feb 1, 2012)

Decided that flickr was too shit so I've been making this today: http://afaarchive.wordpress.com

More to go up.


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## ayatollah (Feb 1, 2012)

intersol32 said:


> Good story and nicely handled. Although I doubt if I'd have had the bravado to stick my chest out and go for a). It's quite likely I would've just thought "oh fuck" and taken the kicking.



Yep, I went for b), and as, thank the gods, I had taken off all my Leftie  badges in the police station, my open, guileless,sincere, smile, was obviously more than the bonehead could handle. He actually grunted "No.. (as in "no I haven't got any NF leaflets to give you... why would I, I can't read ?").. but the bloke round that corner has got some NF News you can buy ". I thanked him profusely and sidled off swiftly, and he and his chums ran on in their knuckle dragging way to hunt for some (more obvious) Lefties to beat up. I then  ran like fuck - a few hundred yards down the road to Cottons Gdns and the IS headquarters and printshop - possibly feeling a wee bit sweaty and bothered , BUT VERY LUCKY!

I then spent the rest of the day, night, andfollowing  morning, dragooned into joining many other IS members on a shift system on the roof parapet of Cottons Gardens, surrounded by loads
of bricks and bottles - expecting an NF attack at any moment due to "intelligence received".   Did they attack ? Did they fuck ... unreliable AND stupid the fascists !


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## Red Storm (Feb 1, 2012)

http://afaarchive.wordpress.com/literature/

Red Attitudes being uploaded at the moment.


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## Red About Town (Feb 1, 2012)

A number of TAL fanzines (AFA influenced Glasgow Celtic magazine) have been recently uploaded.

14 back issues of the fanzine on that site.
http://www.scribd.com/collections/2894881/TAL-FANZINE-ARCHIVE


​


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## bignose1 (Feb 1, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> http://afaarchive.wordpress.com/literature/
> 
> Red Attitudes being uploaded at the moment.


Do you want the early editions?


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## Demu (Feb 1, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Do you want the early editions?



 Hopefully there will be a full set with Red fairly soon.

On a separate note, do you have a copy of that ANL newsletter we did way back  at the resource centre. Had all the old reds and blues against the nazis stuff in it, if I remember correctly.Would be worth putting up...if only to show how amateurish we were back then.


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## krink (Feb 1, 2012)

I just hope someone puts up an archive of Fighting Talk with proper scans instead of the black and white photocopy version that did the rounds a while back (which I also think had a few editions missing?).

to add: I gave my entire collection to an old friend, I'll mail him and see if he still has them.


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## gawkrodger (Feb 1, 2012)

intersol32 said:


> I gave 'D' an old lock-knife I had and he opened his side door, knelt down and began to slash the tyres. Unfortunately the knife was a bit shit and at one point he bent the blade back, cutting his own fingers with a loud "fuck!".



and still one of 'D''s favourite stories to this day!


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## Red Storm (Feb 1, 2012)

krink said:


> I just hope someone puts up an archive of Fighting Talk with proper scans instead of the black and white photocopy version that did the rounds a while back (which I also think had a few editions missing?)
> 
> to add: I gave my entire collection to an old friend, I'll mail him and see if he still has them.



Yeah I have three fighting talks which I'll put up. 

Here is a wanted section I've put on the website: http://afaarchive.wordpress.com/wanted/


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## bignose1 (Feb 2, 2012)

Demu said:


> Hopefully there will be a full set with Red fairly soon.
> 
> On a separate note, do you have a copy of that ANL newsletter we did way back at the resource centre. Had all the old reds and blues against the nazis stuff in it, if I remember correctly.Would be worth putting up...if only to show how amateurish we were back then.


I think I know which one...f'kin hell the resource centre...MARC..still have the smell of the old roneo stenciler in me nostrils...Ill have a look.


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## malatesta32 (Feb 2, 2012)

thanks everyone i am collating all this at the weekend. hectic at the moment. please keep em coming. official announcement on the book soon plus more details etc. ta loads you guys!


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## Inigo Montoya (Feb 2, 2012)

* Beating The Fascists - The Untold Story of Anti Fascist Action (5mins Youtube teaser):*
*http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuC5KDhhZYI*


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## malatesta32 (Feb 3, 2012)

i need info on the 62 group. there seems to be very little apart from some in copsey (2000) and a bit by renton. is there any original source material rather than reiterating their stuff. its a big gaps between 43 group and anti NF stuff. anyone?


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## malatesta32 (Feb 4, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> Decided that flickr was too shit so I've been making this today: http://afaarchive.wordpress.com
> 
> More to go up.


 
linked on malatesta site!


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## malatesta32 (Feb 4, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Wont hap-pun


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## The39thStep (Feb 4, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> i need info on the 62 group. there seems to be very little apart from some in copsey (2000) and a bit by renton. is there any original source material rather than reiterating their stuff. its a big gaps between 43 group and anti NF stuff. anyone?


 
Ever thought of hiring a researcher?


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## malatesta32 (Feb 4, 2012)

cant afford it steps! we are 'non-professional antifascists' unlike other funded bodies!


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## intersol32 (Feb 4, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> cant afford it steps! we are 'non-professional antifascists' unlike other funded bodies!


 
Gable was originally in the 62 group wasn't he? You could maybe drop Searchlight a line and see if they'll give you any pointers?


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## LiamO (Feb 5, 2012)

intersol32 said:


> Gable was originally in the 62 group wasn't he? You could maybe drop Searchlight a line and see if they'll give you any pointers?


 
just had a wee drink with an old mate of yours


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## intersol32 (Feb 5, 2012)

LiamO said:


> just had a wee drink with an old mate of yours


 
...so why the fuck wasn't I invited?!!!


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## intersol32 (Feb 5, 2012)

(another one for Malatesta if he wants to include it....)

My background was primarily from the Anarchist-punk scene. I’d moved over to Nottingham, from a small town near Leicester, when I was seventeen. We’d go to gigs, hang out around a couple of local pubs and frequent the Rock City night-club almost every Friday and Saturday. Even though, looking back, I wasn’t terribly clued-up politically I became aware that organised Fascist groups (along with a certain amount of passive supporters and friends) were established around Nottinghamshire and the Derbyshire border area.

The main pubs we drank in were The Salutation, and another one called The Dragon (just off the Market Square). Sometimes groups of Blood and Honour skinheads would drink in the same places, and I knew that Donaldson and his mates had been regular visitors to The Dragon some weekends before making their way up to Rock City. As young kids, we always thought it best to stay well away from them, but it wasn’t always possible and I remember two incidents in particular.

The first instance was when a punk gig in the town was attacked. Two boneheads had come up to the rear of the venue and CS gassed the people on the door. Then the second was when myself and two younger lads had gone into Rock City, and one of my mates was wearing an "End Racism" t-shirt with a picture of Martin Luther King on the back. They’d wandered off while I’d chatted to some other people, and came back later looking a bit shaken. They’d both explained that a big skinhead had approached them and said to the one with the t-shirt "how come you’re flashing your politics, eh? I don’t show mine!" (regardless of the fact he himself was wearing a No Remorse t-shirt, and an assortment of B+H badges). Before my mate could say anything, the skinhead pulled his jacket aside showing a huge carving knife stitched onto the inside. He went on; "we’ll go outside if you like? I’ve been to prison and I’m not afraid of going back." With that he turned and wandered off. It seemed pointless telling the doorstaff, as everyone knew the security were friendly with the skinheads anyway. Later I kept wondering who these fuckers thought they were just wandering around bullying a couple of young lads out for a drink.

Another strange thing was the way that the social circles sometimes overlapped. I knew that quite a few of the heavy-metal guys we hung around with had also been seen chatting in a friendly manner to some of the skinheads. One of these interestingly was Rob Sherlock, who later became a close associate of Ian Stuart Donaldson and was actually driving the car the night the Skrewdriver singer was killed. As kids he always came across as a nice guy, but slightly insecure. So it probably shouldn’t have been a big surprise when the Fascists started taking him under their wing. Apparently he’d been regaling people with stories of how Donaldson was a great bloke, and how he’d even sorted him and another mates’ bus fare out when they went to see his band play. Rob had also started taking Skrewdriver records along to the local pub and insisting on the DJ playing them while he sat in a corner headbanging and Sieg-Heiling. The whole thing was a bit sad and finally many of us just told him to fuck off, people even began ignoring him in the street.

It was just after this that I became more conscious of the fact that it was one thing to hold an opinion, but the importance was to act upon it. Most of my mates considered themselves "politically minded" but had no real inclination to become politically active. I honestly reckon they were much more satisfied with listening to Crass records and drinking cider. The encroachment of Fascism and Fascist ideas within some areas of Nottinghamshire really needed to be addressed. So one day when passing the local radical bookshop I took a glance at their noticeboard and saw an advert for a meeting of the "East Midlands Anarchists". A few days later I was off over to Derby to attend it. I’d no clue what was going to happen and half-expected (or hoped) for at least a few fiery speeches calling for the violent dismantling of the system.

Not anything of the sort. Instead I was faced with a room of around half a dozen people drinking herbal tea, talking about one of them (who looked like a candidate for a Mental Health Unit) publishing his own poetry. I was fucking despondent. But just before I was about to leave, a crowd of other people turned up. This was a much more rough and ready bunch. As the speaker mentioned attending an upcoming CND march in London, one of the new comers dressed in a flight jacket with a shaved head covered in a jigsaw puzzle of scars, said ironically "aye, fuck, I bet it’ll kick off". To which the rest of them laughed. Discussion was then re-directed for the afternoon with talk of "kicking fuck out of the fash" and how "two BNP brothers who looked like the Proclaimers, and a rat-faced bastard called Graham Tasker" had been done for attacking an SWP paper sale. Seemingly the general consensus amongst the new comrades was that the judges hammer was probably best replaced with the sort you could buy from a Wilkos hardware store. As we left the meeting I sensed that my idea of revolutionary action was more in line with these guys, as opposed to the crowd in the open-toed sandals. I agreed to meet up with them in Nottingham over the following days, and that’s pretty much how I came to be involved in Anti-Fascist Action for the next several years.


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## malatesta32 (Feb 6, 2012)

sol, thats great. midlands was a scary place for fash, especially the smaller places on the otuskirts of nottingham which is probably why ISD ended up there. rock city was a dump and lots of folk boycotted it. also there was a security firm who used fash skinheads quite a lot but cant remember the name as it was years ago.


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## krink (Feb 7, 2012)

Looking at some flicks on the liverpool occupy page and realised i have this set of nf/edl pics and haven't shared on here yet. i dunno where is best to post this but since this seems to be the main anti-fascism thread on urban I thought this will do...enjoy, steal at will and add comments to the pics if you can.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/northernanarcho/


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## Red Storm (Feb 7, 2012)

krink said:


> Looking at some flicks on the liverpool occupy page and realised i have this set of nf/edl pics and haven't shared on here yet. i dunno where is best to post this but since this seems to be the main anti-fascism thread on urban I thought this will do...enjoy, steal at will and add comments to the pics if you can.
> 
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/northernanarcho/


 
EDL Watch thread is the best place for this, I would have thought.


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## krink (Feb 7, 2012)

yeah that's what I thought at first but I'm more interested in the NF and their hangers on rather than edl but i'll post it in there too! i don't have to pay extra do I?


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## Red Storm (Feb 7, 2012)

http://afaarchive.wordpress.com/literature/

Few more bits on the literature section of the Anti-Fascist Archive. 

I've been amazed at the number of 'views' the blog has received. It had 5300 views last week.


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## Red Storm (Feb 7, 2012)

Only just watch that BtF video. It's mint. Particularly like the images of Tyndall's head smashed in.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Feb 7, 2012)

On the subject of the book itself, according to a journalist on Twitter, a photographer is claiming that the cover image belongs to him and was used without permission. Threats to sue, etc.


----------



## love detective (Feb 7, 2012)

has been rumbling on for months this - he's a mentalist, a fantasist and a creep


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## articul8 (Feb 7, 2012)

you can probably add libel to the list too then


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## love detective (Feb 7, 2012)

if he had a valid case to make, he has all the appropriate information to pursue the publisher in the normal way - has he done this? no

instead he's set about harassing & threatening individuals in a manner that borders on stalking


----------



## imposs1904 (Feb 7, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> http://afaarchive.wordpress.com/literature/
> 
> Few more bits on the literature section of the Anti-Fascist Archive.
> 
> I've been amazed at the number of 'views' the blog has received. *It had 5300 views last week.*


 
The wonders of google alert.


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## Red Storm (Feb 7, 2012)

imposs1904 said:


> The wonders of google alert.


 
Ah didn't think of that.

Most have come through facebook though. A whopping 2,200 in fact. I've not seen it posted by anyone though


----------



## Red Storm (Feb 7, 2012)

Nigel Irritable said:


> On the subject of the book itself, according to a journalist on Twitter, a photographer is claiming that the cover image belongs to him and was used without permission. Threats to sue, etc.


 
On the subject of that picture. Where and when is it from?


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## intersol32 (Feb 7, 2012)

Nigel Irritable said:


> On the subject of the book itself, according to a journalist on Twitter, a photographer is claiming that the cover image belongs to him and was used without permission. Threats to sue, etc.


 
I noticed a blokes Flikr page (claiming to be a photo-journalist), where he'd uploaded a load of fash/anti-fash pics. Closer inspection seemed to confirm that he'd lifted a lot of these images from websites and then placed his own copyright logo on them.

Also, loads of the tags for the photos were incorrect such as "NF members attack photographers with chairs at meeting" (bollocks). and getting the names wrong of various well known Fascists.

Wonder if it's the same guy. If so, he definitely seems like a fantasist.


----------



## krink (Feb 7, 2012)

intersol32 said:


> I noticed a blokes Flikr page where he'd uploaded a load of fash/anti-fash pics. Closer inspection seemed to confirm that he'd lifted a lot of these images from websites


 
are you sure that wsn't my flikr page 

(just for the record I took over half of them myself and i admit I stole the rest on my flikr profile)


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## Joe Reilly (Feb 7, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> On the subject of that picture. Where and when is it from?


 
Outside the South African embassy 1990 or 1991.


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## The39thStep (Feb 8, 2012)

love detective said:


> if he had a valid case to make, he has all the appropriate information to pursue the publisher in the normal way - has he done this? no
> 
> instead he's set about harassing & threatening individuals in a manner that borders on stalking


 
Could we recommision PK to sort things out?


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## audiotech (Feb 8, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> Only just watch that BtF video. It's mint. Particularly like the images of Tyndall's head smashed in.


 
I'm pretty certain that was a paint job, not blood and convicted bomber, Copeland, is featured in one of the photos next to Tyndall wearing a baseball cap.


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## past caring (Feb 8, 2012)

Absolutely not.

Word about the meeting came to South London AFA via a person known to us and who also worked for Searchlight. It was interesting that word came to South London AFA rather than East London AFA where the event was actually taking place - the calculation on Searchlight's part being, no doubt, that South London was somewhat more vulnerable to manipulation than East London.

In any event, steps were taken to ensure that no-one stuck their necks out too far and that we avoided the rather obvious bait - though we did have reconnaissance in the area to see what transpired. Hence the video footage. But Tyndall absolutely did get a clump - though from a couple of SWP members who weren't quite as clued up on what they might be walking into. Prosecutions certainly resulted, though I don't recall whether they ended up with convictions.

You are correct about one thing - it is Copeland next to Tyndall. The footage was later made available to the BBC - with the express condition that AFA be credited. Their failure to honour that agreement resulted in the court case Joe alluded to earlier (possibly in the thread specifically about the BTF video).


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## audiotech (Feb 8, 2012)

I stand corrected.

http://www.photographersdirect.com/buyers/stockphoto.asp?imageid=1650636


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## Red Storm (Feb 8, 2012)

audiotech said:


> I stand corrected.
> 
> http://www.photographersdirect.com/buyers/stockphoto.asp?imageid=1650636


 
That's a good pic. Shame its copywrited.


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## audiotech (Feb 8, 2012)

I'm gathering the info I said I'd send you RS, including stickers and even a NF membership card I managed to get hold of from '89 I forgot I had. Postage costs are likely to be high.


----------



## Red Storm (Feb 8, 2012)

audiotech said:


> I'm gathering the info I said I'd send you RS, including stickers and even a NF membership card I managed to get hold of from '89 I forgot I had. Postage costs are likely to be high.


 
Haha hint taken. I wouldn't have expected you to pay costs pal


----------



## Red Storm (Feb 8, 2012)

Whats going on with the Red Action website?!


----------



## Joe Reilly (Feb 8, 2012)

past caring said:


> Absolutely not.
> 
> Word about the meeting came to South London AFA via a person known to us and who also worked for Searchlight. It was interesting that word came to South London AFA rather than East London AFA where the event was actually taking place - the calculation on Searchlight's part being, no doubt, that South London was somewhat more vulnerable to manipulation than East London.
> 
> ...


 
Stratford where the event took place was also, it was noted on the day, one of the most CCTVed areas in the capital. And Andy Bell, previously of Searchlight, was the BBC producer, who left the room just as the credits should have been added. The reason he told the court, was because he had to take a call from a victim's family - cue violins.  The magistrate was not impressed.


----------



## malatesta32 (Feb 8, 2012)

i cd


krink said:


> Looking at some flicks on the liverpool occupy page and realised i have this set of nf/edl pics and haven't shared on here yet. i dunno where is best to post this but since this seems to be the main anti-fascism thread on urban I thought this will do...enjoy, steal at will and add comments to the pics if you can.
> 
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/northernanarcho/


 
i cd use some of these for the book if thats okay. will pm you tho!


----------



## malatesta32 (Feb 8, 2012)

does anyone know who has the copyright for the attached as it wd make a cracking cover!


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 8, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> does anyone know who has the copyright for the attached as it wd make a cracking cover!


put on the inside 'every effort has been made to contact copyright holders for pictures in the magazine / paper. if we have missed anyone out, please contact us and a credit will be provided in a future edition' or something along those lines


----------



## malatesta32 (Feb 8, 2012)

ah pickmans, i knew i cd rely on you to be thorough!!!! cheers for that. i made a dummy cover for the proposal and it looks proper good!


----------



## audiotech (Feb 8, 2012)

past caring said:


> Tyndall absolutely did get a clump - though from a couple of SWP members who weren't quite as clued up on what they might be walking into.


 
A SWP speaker on fascism, who I know from experience and stood with (when fascists turned up to a meeting we were both at) was certainly clued up then:


----------



## Red Storm (Feb 8, 2012)

ST has kindly given me a real wealth of goods and material 

Will be putting them on the archive over the week.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Feb 9, 2012)

audiotech said:


> A SWP speaker on fascism, who I know from experience and stood with (when fascists turned up to a meeting we were both at) was certainly clued up then:




I seem to recall that when I was in the SWP he was fighting a victimisation case against his employer (think it was a hospital) and, if I remember correctly, the union as well. I think it might have been fash that provoked the dispute but my memory of it is hazy. Do you know if that ever got sorted? Whenever I went to national meetings he was always collecting for his case, was a big thing within the SWP at the time.

Edit: Ought to have watched the video first, the woman mentions it when she introduces him.


----------



## intersol32 (Feb 9, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> does anyone know who has the copyright for the attached as it wd make a cracking cover!


 
Wasn't it Leo Regan? (author of the Public Enemies book). Could be wrong. It may actually be worth asking around if anyone has any previously unpublished photos you could use? Either here or on other forums, through Flikr etc. I remember a guy in Notts we used for AFA stuff had a huge collection, although I haven't seen him in years.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 9, 2012)

audiotech said:


> A SWP speaker on fascism, who I know from experience and stood with (when fascists turned up to a meeting we were both at) was certainly clued up then:




Lot of time for Yunis and can remember when he first joined but you are missing the point about being clued up if you read both PC's and Joe's posts. Clued up about Searchlight.


----------



## krink (Feb 9, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> i cd
> 
> 
> i cd use some of these for the book if thats okay. will pm you tho!


 
of course you can, just let me know which ones as some aren't mine.


----------



## audiotech (Feb 9, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> I seem to recall that when I was in the SWP he was fighting a victimisation case against his employer (think it was a hospital) and, if I remember correctly, the union as well. I think it might have been fash that provoked the dispute but my memory of it is hazy. Do you know if that ever got sorted? Whenever I went to national meetings he was always collecting for his case, was a big thing within the SWP at the time.


 
Yunus won his case against his employer, who unlawfully sacked him, but despite that his employers have refused to obey a court order to re-employ him. It's in the hands of a leading employment lawyer now.

http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=27473


----------



## krink (Feb 9, 2012)

yunus often gets a mention in private eye too. unison up here don't like swp/yunus and won't even let them have stalls at unison events. i never met him so can't comment on him personally but he should get his job back.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Feb 9, 2012)

love detective said:


> has been rumbling on for months this - he's a mentalist, a fantasist and a creep


 
That may well be true, but given the unprincipled (even by their low standards) campaign against BTF authors and Freedom Press prior to publication, and the repeated threats of legal action via Carter Ruck thereafter, that the said 'creep' is also a friend and long time Searchlight collaborator, I, (ever so tentatively you understand) suggest there is a possibility that this latest threat of legal action may actually be part of that same dance.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Feb 9, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> Whats going on with the Red Action website?!



I was wondering that, and how putting the back issues up is going?


----------



## love detective (Feb 9, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> That may well be true, but given the unprincipled (even by their low standards) campaign against BTF authors and Freedom Press prior to publication, and the repeated threats of legal action via Carter Ruck thereafter, that the said 'creep' is also a friend and long time Searchlight collaborator, I, (ever so tentatively you understand) suggest there is a possibility that this latest threat of legal action may actually be part of that same dance.


 
his behaviour and various communications to third parties and FP about it does seem to suggest an agenda other than a straightforward resolution of (alleged) copyright infringement - although looking at his recent court battles, they don't seem to have taken a straightforward approach either


----------



## gawkrodger (Feb 10, 2012)

Interestingly a 'known' journo of an anarcho bent has also had threatening legal letters from the same bod, after putting an image of BTF on his site


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Feb 11, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> I seem to recall that when I was in the SWP he was fighting a victimisation case against his employer (think it was a hospital) and, if I remember correctly, the union as well. I think it might have been fash that provoked the dispute but my memory of it is hazy. Do you know if that ever got sorted? Whenever I went to national meetings he was always collecting for his case, was a big thing within the SWP at the time.
> 
> Edit: Ought to have watched the video first, the woman mentions it when she introduces him.


 
He hates women that's for sure.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Feb 11, 2012)

Yeah, I must say that just about everyone I've ever met that knows him thinks he's a massive cunt and a bully. But I don't know him at all so I'll reserve judgement.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Feb 11, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> Yeah, I must say that just about everyone I've ever met that knows him thinks he's a massive cunt and a bully. But I don't know him at all so I'll reserve judgement.


 
I'll be honest, I'm biased because he bullied my partner, but...


----------



## manny-p (Feb 11, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> Yeah, I must say that just about everyone I've ever met that knows him _thinks he's a massive cunt and a bully._


 
That's a good indicator.


----------



## krink (Feb 11, 2012)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> I'll be honest, I'm biased because he bullied my partner, but...


 
that's shocking, never knew that. what a complete dick.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 11, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> Yeah, I must say that just about everyone I've ever met that knows him thinks he's a massive cunt and a bully. But I don't know him at all so I'll reserve judgement.


 
I think he went out with an ex MATB poster sister at one point.


----------



## malatesta32 (Feb 11, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> http://afaarchive.wordpress.com/literature/
> 
> Few more bits on the literature section of the Anti-Fascist Archive.
> 
> I've been amazed at the number of 'views' the blog has received. It had 5300 views last week.


 
brilliant job mate! well done. must be pretty tedious process. needless to say this website will be plundered for the 'malatesta' book shortly! will link on the blog too. excellent!


----------



## Citizen66 (Feb 11, 2012)

Don't know the guy myself, but he was getting slagged off by someone I know on fb fairly recently.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 11, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> Don't know the guy myself, but he was getting slagged off by someone I know on fb fairly recently.


 
isn't that what facebook is for?


----------



## Red Storm (Feb 11, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> brilliant job mate! well done. must be pretty tedious process. needless to say this website will be plundered for the 'malatesta' book shortly! will link on the blog too. excellent!


 
Worryingly I enjoy it. I suppose it makes me feel like I'm being productive without actually doing work I need to be. 

However on Monday the Fighting Talks which have been missing from the list of them which have been about for ages will be going up.


----------



## Red Storm (Feb 11, 2012)

http://paulstott.typepad.com/i_inte...uth-london-anti-fascists-weds-25-january.html

Fairly interesting article though pretty wishy washy.

Though I liked this part:



> I was very active for best part of two decades, a member of Class War for 16 years, I was involved with Anti-Fascist Action on an occasional basis (those who remember Red Action will know Anarchists were always kept in reserve for when the numbers were short, we were the auxillary force) and a founder member of No Platform and Antifa.​


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 11, 2012)

What's wishy-washy about it?


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 11, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> http://paulstott.typepad.com/i_inte...uth-london-anti-fascists-weds-25-january.html
> 
> Fairly interesting article though pretty wishy washy.
> 
> Though I liked this part:


 
Makes perfect sense though.They usually  haven't got the disciple, time keeping  and management skills required for effective political action.


----------



## Paul Marsh (Feb 12, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> Makes perfect sense though.They usually haven't got the disciple, time keeping and management skills required for effective political action.


 
You are quite right. Anarchists usually don't have the disciple.

Boy was that a good Freudian slip!


----------



## Deareg (Feb 12, 2012)

​ 
_was very active for best part of two decades, a member of Class War for 16 years, I was involved with Anti-Fascist Action on an occasional basis (those who remember Red Action will know Anarchists were always kept in reserve for when the numbers were short, we were the auxillary force) _​ 
_I found this bit strange, as I don't remember it like this, and the DAM lads especially were always right at the front when it kicked off._​


----------



## Red Storm (Feb 12, 2012)

Put up Fighting Talks 1-21 today

http://antifascistarchive.com/2012/02/12/fighting-talk-journal-of-anti-fascist-action/


----------



## intersol32 (Feb 12, 2012)

Deareg said:


> ​
> _was very active for best part of two decades, a member of Class War for 16 years, I was involved with Anti-Fascist Action on an occasional basis (those who remember Red Action will know Anarchists were always kept in reserve for when the numbers were short, we were the auxillary force) _​
> _I found this bit strange, as I don't remember it like this, and the DAM lads especially were always right at the front when it kicked off._​


 
I'd agree with that. I always felt many of CW and other Anarchists in the Midlands were just as key in the organizing (along with ourselves as RA members). It was simply a case of whoever had the requisite skills for the job at hand. It was true on occasion you may have had a couple of folks who needed a metaphorical boot up the arse, but I'd like to think that when things became serious everyone mucked in together.

The Paul Stott speech (in my own opinion) is certainly "wishy washy". Perhaps removal from the more street level politics of Anti-Fascism to (in his own words) work and pursue a PhD, has given him the world view of someone who comes across as a UAF spokesperson. Like they say "perception is everything". Although I agree with some instances where he highlights the way the State creates division and tension due to its handling of minority groups, I can't help thinking that his argument that a 'No Platform' policy cannot be enforced in a serious manner is elevating so-called "internet activism" to a level it doesn't deserve.

It's true that the internet provides a double-edged sword where access to information and dissemination of propaganda is concerned. The unfolding of any political initiative will ultimately take place within our communities, and back on the streets. As anti-fascists we can attempt to counter the propaganda of fascists over the internet through either pure argument (as he suggests) or perhaps, others may claim, even through 'Anonymous' style hacking attacks. But the activities of Fascist and Far-Right groups will always need to be tackled in the strictly non-virtual arena where "reasonable debate" is not often possible, nor acceptable.

Also, his citing of the Welling case as being indicative of the so-called failure of militant Anti-Fascism is not strictly correct either. Naturally developing police surveillance techniques, tactics and resources are the things that people must be aware of and learn to counter when involved in any form of direct action or political protest. But if it's the case that advances in technology etc have given the police an edge, it's also certain that it's provided a benefit to political activists too. Of course another argument along similar lines, is that if the police choose to go high-tech then do the reverse. For instance, it's impossible to bug or track a mobile phone if nobody uses them.


----------



## Inigo Montoya (Feb 13, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> Put up Fighting Talks 1-21 today
> 
> http://antifascistarchive.com/2012/02/12/fighting-talk-journal-of-anti-fascist-action/


 
Can anyone confirm exactly how many issues of FT were published altogether? I've heard 23 or 24.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Feb 13, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> Put up Fighting Talks 1-21 today
> 
> http://antifascistarchive.com/2012/02/12/fighting-talk-journal-of-anti-fascist-action/



An excellent resource - thanks to those involved in the work. Are the RA back issues going here too?


----------



## Red Storm (Feb 13, 2012)

Smokeandsteam said:


> An excellent resource - thanks to those involved in the work. Are the RA back issues going here too?



BtF people are putting up RA and FT on their own website. I only have 5 RA's unfortunately and to put up every RA would take forever.


----------



## Red Storm (Feb 13, 2012)

Hopefully, if the universities equipment works, there will be several videos and audio recordings being posted on the anti-fascist archive tonight or tomorrow. 

I'm excited about these as they included bugged BNP meetings and the World In Action documentary.


----------



## krink (Feb 13, 2012)

In a strange memory moment today, I recalled a documentary where in one section they sent some undercover to  pretend to be a new anti-fash and he went to some meeting either in leeds or the dude was pretending to be from leeds. anyone? I seem to remember the meeting was called an AFA meeting but it actually wasn't, it was ANL or someone.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Feb 13, 2012)

Deareg said:


> ​
> _was very active for best part of two decades, a member of Class War for 16 years, I was involved with Anti-Fascist Action on an occasional basis (those who remember Red Action will know Anarchists were always kept in reserve for when the numbers were short, we were the auxillary force) _​
> _I found this bit strange, as I don't remember it like this, and the DAM lads especially were always right at the front when it kicked off._​


 
With AFA you were involved as much as you wanted to be. That principle applied both to individuals and groups. The notion that there was an anarchist army held in reserve so that RA could cherry-pick the most attractive confrontations and the subsequent plaudits -which seems to be the inference - does have currency in some circles (see BTF thread on Indymedia) but ought not to be taken seriously.

AFA was created, and certainly re-created in 1989, to accomodate everyone that wanted to put their shoulder to the wheel. DAM signed up for the duration. Class War failed to do so. The former sat at the top table, the latter 'appeared on an occassional basis'.

Which is fair enough, and the support when offered was indeed welcome, but it is somewhat different to being politically sidelined, if that is what is being implied.


----------



## Red Storm (Feb 13, 2012)

Got the World In Action on a DVD but now struggling to get the damn thing on my computer


----------



## audiotech (Feb 14, 2012)

I'm sure someone will be able to help you out on the art, tech and science forums.


----------



## Fedayn (Feb 14, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> Got the World In Action on a DVD but now struggling to get the damn thing on my computer


 
Copy it onto your computer then upload it onto youtube?


----------



## Red Storm (Feb 14, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> Copy it onto your computer then upload it onto youtube?


 
Had to rip the DVD. Uploading to youtube at the moment.


----------



## past caring (Feb 14, 2012)

Be sure to stick a link up when it's done.


----------



## Red Storm (Feb 14, 2012)

Once the video is uploaded it will be on this link. 

It's on 11% at the moment. 

I've also got a documentary called Ratcatcher on an NF turncoat in the ANL and a documentary on Ray Hill called the Other Face of Terror.

Plus a collection of intel videos of Manchester Martyrs marches plus other bits. This one will take ages to put on a DVD but I think it's worth it.


----------



## Fedayn (Feb 14, 2012)

This video is unavailable


----------



## past caring (Feb 14, 2012)

Fucking amateurs.


----------



## Red Storm (Feb 14, 2012)

See the edit


----------



## Fedayn (Feb 14, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> I've also got a documentary called Ratcatcher on an NF turncoat in the ANL


 
Seen that one and had occasion to speak to him once.....


----------



## past caring (Feb 14, 2012)

Maybe you could just give us all a synopsis then fed, I think it may be quicker....


----------



## Red Storm (Feb 14, 2012)

past caring said:


> Maybe you could just give us all a synopsis then fed, I think it may be quicker....


 
ha.ha.

Dunno why its taking ages. Its on 33% now.

Think ive fucked it up. I'll find out in the morning...


----------



## past caring (Feb 14, 2012)

Nah, I think upload generally takes longer, especially if it's done in decent quality. Just winding you up a little - you're doing a sterling job, really.


----------



## intersol32 (Feb 14, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> Once the video is uploaded it will be on this link.
> 
> It's on 11% at the moment.
> 
> ...




The Ratcatcher documentary is interesting. I remember everyone watching it and saying "why the fuck hasn't this guy joined AFA?".....a short while later he did.

Look forwards to seeing it again. Sounds like the archive is coming along nicely. Well done!


----------



## past caring (Feb 14, 2012)

Oh, _that_ ratcatcher. Not the only time he went public.


----------



## Fedayn (Feb 14, 2012)

past caring said:


> Maybe you could just give us all a synopsis then fed, I think it may be quicker....


 
Was on the big demo in Welling 1993, YRE had a speaker on a truck bed, well away from the main one and Rahul Patel got a few big bods around him to try and strong arm the speakers off the platform. The ratcatcher and his pals seemed a tad non-plussed by Patels rather pathetic behaviour.


----------



## Fedayn (Feb 14, 2012)

Red Storm said:


>




This video has been removed because it is too long.


----------



## past caring (Feb 14, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> Was on the big demo in Welling 1993, YRE had a speaker on a truck bed, well away from the main one and Rahul Patel got a few big bods around him to try and strong arm the speakers off the platform. The ratcatcher and his pals seemed a tad non-plussed by Patels rather pathetic behaviour.


 
Patel was a cunt. Forever sucking up to anyone in the party who he thought was in a position to promote him and forever attempting to bully those more junior. I remember one meeting in which he was the CC's hack-of-choice to read the riot act to a specially convened meeting of SWP local government workers (though possibly it was CPSA members, it's years back) to insist that none of them take semi-managerial grades. Now this wasn't about political principle - the grades in question did not have the ability to hire and fire - it was simply about the fact that due to being on a different grade they had to join a different union or somesuch and the SWP's influence was consequently being diluted. Anyway, Patel gets up and does his stuff - lays down the party line - calls everyone all kinds of cunts for their behaviour, only for it to emerge immediately after the meeting that he'd just gone ahead and taken exactly the kind of promotion that he was now telling everyone else was verboten.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 14, 2012)

Have you tried uploading this onto google videos? You get longer.


----------



## malatesta32 (Feb 14, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> ha.ha.
> 
> Dunno why its taking ages. Its on 33% now.
> 
> Think ive fucked it up. I'll find out in the morning...


 
keep at it. you are doing a grand job! thanks loads.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 14, 2012)

You may find it easier to get a free Dropbox account and upload it to there - it's very straightforward, and you get 2Gb free.

Then you can share the link and others can split it up and upload to YouTube, GoogleVideo, Vimeo etc.


----------



## Red Storm (Feb 14, 2012)

My dropbox is full. I'll make another one if youtube fails me again.

Youtube is saying the video is 80 or more minutes long when I'm uploading it. It's actually only 24 minutes long 

EDIT: I actually think that timer is how long it takes to upload


----------



## Fedayn (Feb 14, 2012)

past caring said:


> Patel was a cunt. Forever sucking up to anyone in the party who he thought was in a position to promote him and forever attempting to bully those more junior. I remember one meeting in which he was the CC's hack-of-choice to read the riot act to a specially convened meeting of SWP local government workers (though possibly it was CPSA members, it's years back) to insist that none of them take semi-managerial grades. Now this wasn't about political principle - the grades in question did not have the ability to hire and fire - it was simply about the fact that due to being on a different grade they had to join a different union or somesuch and the SWP's influence was consequently being diluted. Anyway, Patel gets up and does his stuff - lays down the party line - calls everyone all kinds of cunts for their behaviour, only for it to emerge immediately after the meeting that he'd just gone ahead and taken exactly the kind of promotion that he was now telling everyone else was verboten.


 
Patel was certainly a cunt, his behaviour in Coventry over the issue of the openly Nazi Cathy Murphy working in the DSS was a perfect display of how big a cunt he was.

Sounds like the old CPSA (Civil & Public Services Association)/SCPS (Society of Civil & Public Servants) debate in the civil service (Both now part of CPS). CPSA was by far the more militant/left-wing membership but only represented non managerial grades, in DWP AA & AO. Once you became an EO (Executive Officer) you joined SCPS, as such good left activists were lost in what was the Stalinist gulag of the 'Society'.  In fairness the 'rule' on activists in CPSA not taking 'managerial' grades ie EO and above was also used in the then Militant.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Feb 14, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> Patel was certainly a cunt, his behaviour in Coventry over the issue of the openly Nazi Cathy Murphy working in the DSS was a perfect display of how big a cunt he was.
> 
> Sounds like the old CPSA (Civil & Public Services Association)/SCPS (Society of Civil & Public Servants) debate in the civil service (Both now part of CPS). CPSA was by far the more militant/left-wing membership but only represented non managerial grades, in DWP AA & AO. Once you became an EO (Executive Officer) you joined SCPS, as such good left activists were lost in what was the Stalinist gulag of the 'Society'. In fairness the 'rule' on activists in CPSA not taking 'managerial' grades ie EO and above was also used in the then Militant.


 
Clearly the 'rule' was a flexible one and more a case of doing what we say and not what we do. Presume the AWL didn't operate a similar stricture as Serwotka was an EO wasn't he?


----------



## Red Storm (Feb 14, 2012)

Youtube saying it's too long. Will try google videos.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Feb 14, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> http://paulstott.typepad.com/i_inte...uth-london-anti-fascists-weds-25-january.html


 
"The talk nearly did not happen. Much to my surprise, Hope Not Hate objected to me speaking, describing my presence as 'intolerable'. Hope Not Hate's predecessor organisation, Searchlight, long enjoyed a monopoly over media coverage of the far-right - it is worrying if Hope Not Hate believe they have a similar monoply over analysis of fascism, or even of opposition to it?"

Other than 'intolerable' on what grounds did they object to Paul Stott speaking?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 14, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> Other than 'intolerable' on what grounds did they object to Paul Stott speaking?


 
Bad feng shui?


----------



## past caring (Feb 14, 2012)

There's a good kind?


----------



## past caring (Feb 14, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> Patel was certainly a cunt, his behaviour in Coventry over the issue of the openly Nazi Cathy Murphy working in the DSS was a perfect display of how big a cunt he was.


 
Who was the other SWPer who was a noise in the old CPSA for a while - John someone or another - Irish or Scottish surname starting with an M but from London. Wiry little fucker?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Feb 14, 2012)

past caring said:


> Who was the other SWPer who was a noise in the old CPSA for a while - John someone or another - Irish or Scottish surname starting with an M but from London. Wiry little fucker?


 
Do you mean John Macreadie? He was in the Militant and from Glasgow mind. Died last year incidentally. Martin Smith was in the CPSA too iirc - he was a knobhead then as well.


----------



## intersol32 (Feb 14, 2012)

past caring said:


> Oh, _that_ ratcatcher. Not the only time he went public.


 
When was the other instance?

I recall being on the Manchester Bloody Sunday march, turning round and thinking "fucking hell, it's that bloke off the telly".


----------



## past caring (Feb 14, 2012)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Do you mean John Macreadie? He was in the Militant and from Glasgow mind. Died last year incidentally. Martin Smith was in the CPSA too iirc - he was a knobhead then as well.


 
No, not him - maybe Maloney or something. Definite swerper through and through.


----------



## past caring (Feb 14, 2012)

intersol32 said:


> When was the other instance?
> 
> I recall being on the Manchester Bloody Sunday march, turning round and thinking "fucking hell, it's that bloke off the telly".


 
At the time of the fall out over the IWCA strategy (he was one of the "RA have bottled it" brigade) - he very publically cut himself adrift by agreeing to a profile piece in Time Out. Pictures of him, spray can in hand, spreading the anti-fascist message in dimly lit subways in SE London. Full face photos, the lot.


----------



## Red Storm (Feb 14, 2012)

past caring said:


> At the time of the fall out over the IWCA strategy (he was one of the "RA have bottled it" brigade) - he very publically cut himself adrift by agreeing to a profile piece in Time Out. Pictures of him, spray can in hand, spreading the anti-fascist message in dimly lit subways in SE London. Full face photos, the lot.


 
I have been given a Time Out recently. It might be that one. I'll check later.


----------



## past caring (Feb 14, 2012)

Which reminds of a little anecdote that I thought about posting earlier.....maybe to counterbalance some of the war stories (i.e. this kind of thing happened at least as much as coming to grips with the baddies).

I had a flatmate - J - hadn't known him that long, he worked behind the bar in the pub I used to go to after work and me and my mates regularly got stuff on the house from the landlord because we were in there so much. Anyway, gradually me and J got friendly - he needed somewhere to live and the mate I'd had in there before had moved out, I needed someone to help share the rent....

So he moves in and we get to know each other a bit better. He's sound enough so he gets to know a bit about my politics and he begins to express an interest in joining AFA and coming on some activities. It's a little bit tricky trying to find the right opportunity 'cos he's obviously an unknown quantity - but then what seems like the ideal opportunity comes up.

The ratcatcher tells me one night that he's aware of a load of fash stickers going up in an area one of his relatives lives. So me and him head down there one night and right enough, there's KKK, NF, BNP, NSA, Surrey Border Front on more or less every lampost around a group of 5 or 6 streets. All long streets of suburban semis with pedestrian alleys cutting between them. The alleys are stickered too.

So the plan is that we'll go down there again, put a few AFA and RA stickers up, just to lay down a marker, so to speak.

This will be the ideal opportunity for J - we'll need to have our wits about us, but we don't anticipate any fisticuffs - and the ratcatcher says he knows the area.

So one light summer evening, there we are, more or less at the top of one road, having stickered the length of it - when I hear the sound of a group of blokes chatting and about to come round the corner. J is 15 foot up a lampost that some particularly agile fash has stickered, so I tell him to get down quick.

He's just in time to avoid a group of 12-15 blokes coming round the corner. The ratcatcher says quietly, "Let's just walk back to the car, casually - don't rush." Which is no easy feat, given that the car is some 400 yards away and I've clearly started to hear mumblings behind us of "Oi! Look at this!" and "Fucking reds" and "These are fucking recent."

But we hold it together - or at least me and J do: though we started off together, the ratcatcher beat us back to the car by a good 60 yards - again, no mean feat given his build.

Anyway, that was J's first and last time out with AFA - and he moved out of the flat in fairly short order, too.

The tale of how we subsequently tried to get to grips with the 15 fash is another story, but one I won't be repeating on here.


----------



## bignose1 (Feb 14, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> I have been given a Time Out recently. It might be that one. I'll check later.


Didnt he have a Polish sounding surname or am I completely off the track..wont be the fist time. ( or is this a previous case)


----------



## bignose1 (Feb 14, 2012)

past caring said:


> Which reminds of a little anecdote that I thought about posting earlier.....maybe to counterbalance some of the war stories (i.e. this kind of thing happened at least as much as coming to grips with the baddies).
> 
> I had a flatmate - J - hadn't known him that long, he worked behind the bar in the pub I used to go to after work and me and my mates regularly got stuff on the house from the landlord because we were in there so much. Anyway, gradually me and J got friendly - he needed somewhere to live and the mate I'd had in there before had moved out, I needed someone to help share the rent....
> 
> ...


 This is a good ruse...to draw them out...We(local AFA+Searchlight) needed some good shots of Blackpool BNP Organiser. We knew he signed on and what time so we covered over some fash stickers and put some fresh ones up opposite the dole office. We booked into a b & b directly opposite and waited. Bingo...said fash arrives bang on time and starts peeling away..we run off a load of pics..use them to identify him regards some local misdemeaners and he's in the bag. We knew where he lived but it was in a muti storey block so an ID was hard. Ill scan and post the sequence of pics later.


----------



## krink (Feb 14, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Ill scan and post the sequence of pics later.


 
err, we queue in this country! where's the rest of the bnp sunderland demo you promised??


----------



## intersol32 (Feb 14, 2012)

past caring said:


> At the time of the fall out over the IWCA strategy (he was one of the "RA have bottled it" brigade) - he very publically cut himself adrift by agreeing to a profile piece in Time Out. Pictures of him, spray can in hand, spreading the anti-fascist message in dimly lit subways in SE London. Full face photos, the lot.


 
Fuck me. That's a shame. Sounds like he lost the plot.


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## malatesta32 (Feb 14, 2012)

joey owens. his memoir is as accurate and thorough as is his understanding of nietzsche. nietzsche wasnt an antisemite.


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## Red Storm (Feb 14, 2012)

http://antifascistarchive.com/2012/02/14/427/

^^^ Violence with Violence

Ta daaaaaaa

If anyone wants a DVD of it, PM me.


----------



## chilango (Feb 14, 2012)

Cheers RS.

I'd forgotten that ARA had a seperate demo that day....


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Feb 14, 2012)

past caring said:


> No, not him - maybe Maloney or something. Definite swerper through and through.


 
John Maloney is an AWLer - he's still about, and ran for AGS or DGS a couple of years ago. He is a cockney.


----------



## Fedayn (Feb 14, 2012)

past caring said:


> Who was the other SWPer who was a noise in the old CPSA for a while - John someone or another - Irish or Scottish surname starting with an M but from London. Wiry little fucker?


 
Not Maloney then, he's a fat fella, AWL fellow traveller but a rather likable fella as it goes. Can't think who you'll be meaning.


----------



## past caring (Feb 14, 2012)

Used to knock around with Chris Nineham.


----------



## happie chappie (Feb 14, 2012)

There was a notorious clash between the NF and anti-fascists at Hatfield Poly in the late 1970s when the Front came off by far the worst.

http://www.wordmagazine.co.uk/content/gig-and-festival-violence

One of the key anti-fascist organisers on the day was a well known Man United Cockney Red (and RA activist). A top bloke.

Ironically, Nicky Crane was also a Cockney Red from South East London. He had “MUFC” tattooed on his knuckles below his British Movement Kent Branch tattoo.

I sat next to him on a coach going to an away game once and had no idea who he was until afterwards.


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## barney_pig (Feb 14, 2012)

happie chappie said:


> There was a notorious clash between the NF and anti-fascists at Hatfield Poly in the late 1970s when the Front came off by far the worst.
> 
> http://www.wordmagazine.co.uk/content/gig-and-festival-violence
> 
> ...


Did he make a pass at you?


----------



## bignose1 (Feb 15, 2012)

krink said:


> err, we queue in this country! where's the rest of the bnp sunderland demo you promised??


Sorry theyll be on soon...scanner went a bit flaky at work


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## bignose1 (Feb 15, 2012)

happie chappie said:


> There was a notorious clash between the NF and anti-fascists at Hatfield Poly in the late 1970s when the Front came off by far the worst.
> 
> http://www.wordmagazine.co.uk/content/gig-and-festival-violence
> 
> ...


MOF top bloke...does FC United these days and got a book in the pipeline. Thats deffo a revelation about Crane being Man United...never fuckin knew that...


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 15, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> Not Maloney then, he's a fat fella, AWL fellow traveller but a rather likable fella as it goes. Can't think who you'll be meaning.


 
_John McLoughlin_


----------



## happie chappie (Feb 15, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> MOF top bloke...does FC United these days and got a book in th pipeline. Thats deffo a revelation about Crane being Man United...never fuckin knew that...


 
MOF is certainly a good bloke and is very highly regarded by older Cockney Reds. His book should be really interesting.

You can just make out Crane’s Man United tattoo on this video if you look carefully at his hand about 27secs in:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3e6e__qbL7E


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 15, 2012)

MOF and me were witnesses for a SWP member ( an ambulance driver at the time, now a barrister) who was arrested on a demonstration. When we got there  there was also another kid  quite middle class but very nervous who we thought would be a liability. The defence solicitor met with us all and was worried about  both MOFs and my antecedant history if asked if we were 'of good character'. Sure enough the prosecution had a right go about whether or not we were  seasoned activists with a political grudge and then as the defendant began to look nervous the middle class kid gets in the box tells us in a stuttering voice that he is at Oxford University and  then gets absolutely bullied by the prosecution about how he could be sure of what he saw from fifty yards and what he accurately remembered. It all looks a bit glum for our comrade but then the magistrate stepped in and said to the prosecutor ' Are you seriously saying that a man from Trinity cannot see accurately form 50 yards, in my exprience at Trinity scholars had the best eyesight  and best memory of all of the University'  and promptly dismissed the case.


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## bignose1 (Feb 15, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> MOF and me were witnesses for a SWP member ( an ambulance driver at the time, now a barrister) who was arrested on a demonstration. When we got there there was also another kid quite middle class but very nervous who we thought would be a liability. The defence solicitor met with us all and was worried about both MOFs and my antecedant history if asked if we were 'of good character'. Sure enough the prosecution had a right go about whether or not we were seasoned activists with a political grudge and then as the defendant began to look nervous the middle class kid gets in the box tells us in a stuttering voice that he is at Oxford University and then gets absolutely bullied by the prosecution about how he could be sure of what he saw from fifty yards and what he accurately remembered. It all looks a bit glum for our comrade but then the magistrate stepped in and said to the prosecutor ' Are you seriously saying that a man from Trinity cannot see accurately form 50 yards, in my exprience at Trinity scholars had the best eyesight and best memory of all of the University' and promptly dismissed the case.


 
Oh Ambulance driver turned lawyer.........................barramedic


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Feb 15, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> Whats going on with the Red Action website?!


 
IWCA site is also gone now?


----------



## Red Storm (Feb 15, 2012)

Smokeandsteam said:


> IWCA site is also gone now?


 
I can get on the IWCA site. Gutted the RA site is gone


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Feb 15, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> I can get on the IWCA site. Gutted the RA site is gone


 
I can't, I just get links to the other sites -
http://www.iwca.info/ 

Tried via Google too.

Agree re RA site but perhaps its just being moved as part of the long trailed move to put the back issues up?


----------



## Red Storm (Feb 15, 2012)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I can't, I just get links to the other sites -
> http://www.iwca.info/
> 
> Tried via Google too.
> ...


 
I can still get on it using that link and via google 

Perhaps.


----------



## past caring (Feb 15, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> _John McLoughlin_


 
That's him.


----------



## malatesta32 (Feb 15, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> MOF top bloke...does FC United these days and got a book in the pipeline. Thats deffo a revelation about Crane being Man United...never fuckin knew that...


any details on the book? publisher? shd be a good resource.


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## malatesta32 (Feb 15, 2012)

nice!
http://www.anti-fascists-online.com/2012/02/anti-fascist-archive.html


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## malatesta32 (Feb 15, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> http://antifascistarchive.com/2012/02/14/427/
> 
> ^^^ Violence with Violence
> 
> ...


 
whats with that bit about the geezer in profile 'fearing reprisals from the ANL'? i mean, come on man!


----------



## malatesta32 (Feb 15, 2012)

about 15 mins in on the bit about the away team, just at the end of the clip, a wee lassie sneaks in a gets a sneaky boot at some tarmac'd tearaway!


----------



## intersol32 (Feb 15, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> whats with that bit about the geezer in profile 'fearing reprisals from the ANL'? i mean, come on man!


 
Viewing the WIA documentary again, it's certainly reflective of the atmosphere at the time. The response by the mainstream left (and obviously the state, occasionally in cahoots with the former) against any kind of militant anti-fascism was palpable ("...an excuse for violence", "willing to use violent tactics" ad infinitum). It wouldn't have been difficult to find an individual who falsely claimed that the ANL were organizing on a physical force level. As ridiculous as that may sound. There will always be the occasional oddball or Walter Mitty type hanging around any political group, they're also the ones who appear most willing to talk to the press (or the cops) once they get told to fuck off.

Thankfully, the AFA and RA folks interviewed come across as the most articulate. I cringed again when I saw the guy from (Panther uk?) with the Malcolm X type fur hat.


----------



## intersol32 (Feb 15, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> about 15 mins in on the bit about the away team, just at the end of the clip, a wee lassie sneaks in a gets a sneaky boot at some tarmac'd tearaway!


 
Yeah. That bit always makes me laugh. Also the floored fash having a copper stood over him whilst some fella aims a few kicks round the cops legs.

The "away team" was also primarily a load of bollocks of course, and likely to be fished from some unnamed individual source.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Feb 15, 2012)

happie chappie said:


> MOF is certainly a good bloke and is very highly regarded by older Cockney Reds. His book should be really interesting.
> 
> You can just make out Crane’s Man United tattoo on this video if you look carefully at his hand about 27secs in:
> 
> [URL='http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3e6e__qbL7E[/quote']http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3e6e__qbL7E[/URL]


 
Love the bit where he say's he 'was 'building up _quite_ a violent reputation'. An understatment if I ever heard one.


----------



## malatesta32 (Feb 15, 2012)

the doco attempts to conflate anti-racism and anti-fascism. the ARA were against racism, AFA against fascism and fascism includes racism, homophobia, marching to crap music and lots of other stuff. it was not about 'fighting for' asian/black victims but against fascists. the doco is also, as i think joe pointed out, promoting an anti-extermism agenda whether left or right.


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## malatesta32 (Feb 15, 2012)

joe, is this guy one of 'ours'?
http://antifascistarchive.com/2012/02/01/battle-of-waterloo/#wpcom-carousel-128


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## Red Storm (Feb 15, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> joe, is this guy one of 'ours'?
> http://antifascistarchive.com/2012/02/01/battle-of-waterloo/#wpcom-carousel-128


 
He's AFA (the skinhead being attacked) I've been told. He's the one where loads of people are trying to land punches but he's dodging the majority. Just after the AFA chap with long hair and glasses runs away on the video clip.

http://antifascistarchive.com/literature/  Been sent 3 new leaflets too. Still need to credit the persons.


----------



## Red Storm (Feb 15, 2012)

intersol32 said:


> Thankfully, the AFA and RA folks interviewed come across as the most articulate. I cringed again when I saw the guy from (Panther uk?) with the Malcolm X type fur hat.


 
Especially when he was from the non-militant wing (although I might have remembered that wrong).

Yeah the two AFA/RA blokes did come across as the best. The YRE blokes hesitated and stammered and the Class War chap came across a bit crap. The ANL guy was articulate but he was ANL.


----------



## Fedayn (Feb 15, 2012)

intersol32 said:


> I cringed again when I saw the guy from (Panther uk?) with the Malcolm X type fur hat.


 
That is Graham Campbell, aka Graham Cee, latterly of London now of Glasgow, a rather 'robust' (ie frothing) Sheridanite, Solidarity and SWP? member and generally all round interesting chap.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Feb 15, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> He's AFA (the skinhead being attacked) I've been told. He's the one where loads of people are trying to land punches but he's dodging the majority. Just after the AFA chap with long hair and glasses runs away on the video clip.
> 
> http://antifascistarchive.com/literature/ Been sent 3 new leaflets too. Still need to credit the persons.


 
Liverpool Dam. A key member in AFA across the North West.


----------



## malatesta32 (Feb 15, 2012)

thanks! i think it may be P?


----------



## malatesta32 (Feb 15, 2012)

and i seem to remember him trading blows on occasion with failed nietzschean joey owens which he forgets to mention in his 'memoir.'


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## bignose1 (Feb 15, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> thanks! i think it may be P?


Yep Top guy and so was A from the same area. Owens was pissed off he never got a mention in NR cos he claims he caused us all sorts of problems...he didnt..and fair play to P if he had the better of him....


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## bignose1 (Feb 16, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> This is a good ruse...to draw them out...We(local AFA+Searchlight) needed some good shots of Blackpool BNP Organiser. We knew he signed on and what time so we covered over some fash stickers and put some fresh ones up opposite the dole office. We booked into a b & b directly opposite and waited. Bingo...said fash arrives bang on time and starts peeling away..we run off a load of pics..use them to identify him regards some local misdemeaners and he's in the bag. We knew where he lived but it was in a muti storey block so an ID was hard. Ill scan and post the sequence of pics later.


Heres those photos...His name is Dave Blezzard . Blackpool BNP Organiser (1994)


----------



## malatesta32 (Feb 16, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Yep Top guy and so was A from the same area. Owens was pissed off he never got a mention in NR cos he claims he caused us all sorts of problems...he didnt..and fair play to P if he had the better of him....


 
joey 'everyones searchlight apart from me!' owens has managed to piss everyone on the liverpool far right 'scene' off including infidels, bnp and nf. i think it was P who caused him to lose a tooth in 1 L'pool confrontation whoch he omitted from his memoirs. the liverpool fash seemed to have achieved little apart from attacking the radical bookshop and threatening vulnerable folks. liam pinkham is off a similar stripe.
http://malatesta32.wordpress.com/
scrool down to read about him 'grooming' a 15 year old.


----------



## malatesta32 (Feb 16, 2012)

ps joey, i reckon that gerry gable's searchlight too, and a red!


----------



## bignose1 (Feb 16, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> joey 'everyones searchlight apart from me!' owens has managed to piss everyone on the liverpool far right 'scene' off including infidels, bnp and nf. i think it was P who caused him to lose a tooth in 1 L'pool confrontation whoch he omitted from his memoirs. the liverpool fash seemed to have achieved little apart from attacking the radical bookshop and threatening vulnerable folks. liam pinkham is off a similar stripe.
> http://malatesta32.wordpress.com/
> scrool down to read about him 'grooming' a 15 year old.


PInkham....has he fallen out with Wigan Mike


----------



## malatesta32 (Feb 16, 2012)

not sure. however this malatesta blog exposes the sordid details!
http://malatesta32.wordpress.com/2010/08/12/gay-nazis-and-deviants-surely-not/
heaton just got out of jail but will is bound to hook up with the infidels. they are his kind of extremists.


----------



## malatesta32 (Feb 16, 2012)

not sure. however this malatesta blog exposes the sordid details!
http://malatesta32.wordpress.com/2010/08/12/gay-nazis-and-deviants-surely-not/
heaton just got out of jail but is bound to hook up with the infidels. they are his kind of extremists.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Feb 16, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> The notion that Crane was a match-going Cockney Red seems implausible. Given his size and general appearance it would be impossible for him to hide his identity. As a consequence had he been on that circuit we would have certainly heard about it very quickly.
> 
> Moreover, during one trip to OT in the mid-80's an acquaintance of his - another nutter incidentally - (he was done for attempted murder after chucking some fella of a scaffold for making remarks about his missus) spoke warmly of Nicky; of his time with him in the jail and so forth, but never once in the conversation did he mention that Crane was a Utd supporter.


----------



## Red Storm (Feb 16, 2012)

Inigo Montoya said:


> Can anyone confirm exactly how many issues of FT were published altogether? I've heard 23 or 24.


 
25 (May, 2001). I'm gonna get these next week.


----------



## bignose1 (Feb 16, 2012)

This guy was helping the neo nazi 'Sweden for the Swedish' in Stockholm. He was living there circa mid 1980's and I took some video of him at a rally as well as this photo. This showed the clear links between them and the NF. The video Ill try and upload or get someone to do it (Redstorm/Mal) There is a brief clip of my video on Youtube..what a bunch of drunken losers...but in the background some very dangerous players.....Ill find the link.(tag November 30/ Stockholm/demonstration)( This was during a speaking tour on behalf of Searchlight in the mid 80's ) I met and became friends with Steig Larsson and his partner Eva during this period. Anyway to the photo....his name was Tommy something..might have been a scouser...anyone know if he's still around?


----------



## malatesta32 (Feb 16, 2012)

which begs the question, why the MUFC tat so prominent 'pon his dainty wrist?


----------



## malatesta32 (Feb 16, 2012)

and also the very idea of a nazi hooligan following soccer! crivvens!


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## bignose1 (Feb 16, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> which begs the question, why the MUFC tat so prominent 'pon his dainty wrist?


 Maybe his digslexyah is so bad he couldnt spell ACAB


----------



## krink (Feb 16, 2012)

is this is???



> no it's not


----------



## bignose1 (Feb 16, 2012)

krink said:


> is this is???



 No its a lot earlier enter November 30 demonstration...should come up


----------



## krink (Feb 16, 2012)




----------



## bignose1 (Feb 16, 2012)

krink said:


>



Yep thats the one....I have about 30 mins of this stuff...the guy in black coat holding flag going 'grosse communismen' is the scariest looking fash Ive ever come across,,..This edited stuff must've come from a Swedish TV channel who I made a copy for at the time.


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## malatesta32 (Feb 16, 2012)

rather interesting exAFA response to owens' made up memoirs of 'nationalist triumph' in liverpool:
http://www.catalystmedia.org.uk/reviews/race_war_door_war.php


----------



## happie chappie (Feb 16, 2012)

Joe - Crane was definitely a United fan and he had MUFC tattooed across his knuckles. Ian Stuart Donaldson was also a United fan as well, by the way.


----------



## intersol32 (Feb 16, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Heres those photos...His name is Dave Blezzard . Blackpool BNP Organiser (1994)


 
Sign on you crazy diamond.

Rocking the Moseley look too (nice!).


----------



## intersol32 (Feb 16, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> rather interesting exAFA response to owens' made up memoirs of 'nationalist triumph' in liverpool:
> http://www.catalystmedia.org.uk/reviews/race_war_door_war.php


 
Interesting comments underneath the article by the chap himself. Sounds like he pretty much admits the BNP defeat at the hands of AFA etc. and says that most of his rumbling was done with SWP and Militant anyway.

Still, it's a bizarre statement for him to make that "the Nationalist will" was triumphant.

A bit like suggesting that German victory at Stalingrad was secured in 1942....without mentioning that they were surrounded and annihilated in 1943.


----------



## bignose1 (Feb 16, 2012)

intersol32 said:


> Sign on you crazy diamond.
> 
> Rocking the Moseley look too (nice!).


 
(Can somebody straighten em up the right way.) Yeah he does look rather caddish... David B'Lezzard chaps


----------



## bignose1 (Feb 16, 2012)

happie chappie said:


> Joe - Crane was definitely a United fan and he had MUFC tattooed across his knuckles. Ian Stuart Donaldson was also a United fan as well, by the way.


You would never have known....esp Donaldson...sure we would have known at the time..if he was match going


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 16, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> You would never have known....esp Donaldson...sure we would have known at the time..if he was match going


 

As most United supporters aren't you wouldn't have known


----------



## bignose1 (Feb 17, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> As most United supporters aren't you wouldn't have known


Ha ha....give you that

''were Man United... we'll go when we want''


----------



## Nigel (Feb 18, 2012)

intersol32 said:


> I'd agree with that. I always felt many of CW and other Anarchists in the Midlands were just as key in the organizing (along with ourselves as RA members). It was simply a case of whoever had the requisite skills for the job at hand. It was true on occasion you may have had a couple of folks who needed a metaphorical boot up the arse, but I'd like to think that when things became serious everyone mucked in together.
> 
> The Paul Stott speech (in my own opinion) is certainly "wishy washy". Perhaps removal from the more street level politics of Anti-Fascism to (in his own words) work and pursue a PhD, has given him the world view of someone who comes across as a UAF spokesperson. Like they say "perception is everything". Although I agree with some instances where he highlights the way the State creates division and tension due to its handling of minority groups, I can't help thinking that his argument that a 'No Platform' policy cannot be enforced in a serious manner is elevating so-called "internet activism" to a level it doesn't deserve.
> 
> ...


 
I've known Paul on and off for years and can definitely say your perception of his character lacks clarity!


----------



## intersol32 (Feb 18, 2012)

Nigel said:


> I've known Paul on and off for years and can definitely say your perception of his character lacks clarity!


 
It's not a critique of his "character". It's more to do with the political analysis he presents within his speech.


----------



## intersol32 (Feb 18, 2012)

Breaking News. Just heard there's been a tussle between Fascists and Anti-Fascists in Liverpool prior to the Republican march there today. I'm currently trying to get more details, but if anyone knows anything (facts not fiction) can they post it up? Cheers.


----------



## Anonymous1 (Feb 19, 2012)

Thank you to all who have shared their stories and continue to do so.
It took me a while to read the _entire _thread but it was well worth it.

Hopefully i can get a copy of the book in a few weeks.
Respect where it's due to those who put their blood, sweat and tears into these events.

ta.


----------



## Red Storm (Feb 21, 2012)

What's the background to this vid?


----------



## Delroy Booth (Feb 21, 2012)

http://www.civilliberty. org.uk/newsdetail.php?newsid=1435

Review of Beating the Fascists by a fascist. Should be of special interest to Malatesta


----------



## Anonymous1 (Feb 21, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> http://www.civilliberty. org.uk/newsdetail.php?newsid=1435
> 
> Review of Beating the Fascists by a fascist. Should be of special interest to Malatesta


Edited as i didn't get the link, got it.
sorry


----------



## Anonymous1 (Feb 21, 2012)

More of an insult hurling exercise than a review, if i'm honest.
Maybe that's why is simply says : Civil Liberty correspondent.


----------



## malatesta32 (Feb 21, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> http://www.civilliberty. org.uk/newsdetail.php?newsid=1435
> 
> Review of Beating the Fascists by a fascist. Should be of special interest to Malatesta


 
repost the link delroy it disnae work!


----------



## Blagsta (Feb 21, 2012)

take the space out


----------



## malatesta32 (Feb 21, 2012)

one for thre BtF website mebbe?
http://www. civilliberty. org.uk/newsdetail.php?newsid=1435


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## malatesta32 (Feb 21, 2012)

ah how sweet, im a do-nothing blogger! crivvens!


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## Red Storm (Feb 21, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> one for thre BtF website mebbe?


 

Break the link dude.

Shame about that review, I half hoped for a proper review of the book by the fash.


----------



## Delroy Booth (Feb 21, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> Break the link dude.
> 
> Shame about that review, I half hoped for a proper review of the book by the fash.


 
Yeah but that would involve actually reading a long book with long words in it, its a bit much to expect of them.


----------



## intersol32 (Feb 22, 2012)

He doesn't even attempt to dispute any of the events raised in the book, but instead dismisses everything as exaggerated thuggery. No relevent analysis whatsoever.

As for Mal being a "do nothing blogger"....just look at the guy who runs the website!

An obviously frustrated Tory boy (and blogger) Kevin Scott "BA Hons". It's hilarious how he sticks his degree letters after his name, when it's only a BA for gods sake - my money is that it's in Cookery, or fucking Tourism and Travel.


----------



## Riklet (Feb 22, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> repost the link delroy it disnae work!


 
That's the point mate, i would edit it and break the link, you too red storm you've quoted the full url....

*reads* He doesn't sound like a middle aged fash, his writing makes him sound exactly like some sneery ex student as he seems to be.  got the image of the 4 libertarian types in my head: "better dead than red." Ominous music though eh, ouchhh.


----------



## bignose1 (Feb 22, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> What's the background to this vid?



Well its Ken Henderson ex BNP regional organiser from Rochdale and Im thinking it was shot for a student film project. Guy with beard at the begining is Peter Barker who runs the Northwestnationalists website


----------



## manny-p (Feb 22, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> What's the background to this vid?



The black circle used to block out someones face is hilarious. =)


----------



## Joe Reilly (Feb 22, 2012)

intersol32 said:


> He doesn't even attempt to dispute any of the events raised in the book, but instead dismisses everything as exaggerated thuggery. No relevent analysis whatsoever.


He hasn't even read it. What he's seen is the promo on youtube. For example he lazily repeats the usual error of Jan Taylor being RA - but totally ignores the accurate reference to LH receiving a similar sentence for Inla activities, which is a bit of a giveaway. He's also under the impression FTB has just come out - when the published date is 2010.


----------



## malatesta32 (Feb 22, 2012)

joe, the guys a total penis. at least he forked out 15 quid for it.


----------



## Red Storm (Feb 23, 2012)

Issues 22, 23, 24 and 25 of Fighting Talk are currently being scanned for the anti-fascist archive. I believe that these are the last, although there is no evidence of it in issue 25.


----------



## Red Storm (Feb 23, 2012)

http://www.veoh.com/watch/v28426630mdz5f4SE

^^^Ratcatcher NF turncoat doc. Unfortunately you need to install the player to watch the whole film.


----------



## krink (Feb 23, 2012)

kevin scott - what a tool that man is. i think his ba is in history btw. he won't have bought the book, the tight cunt!


----------



## krink (Feb 23, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> http://www.veoh.com/watch/v28426630mdz5f4SE
> 
> ^^^Ratcatcher NF turncoat doc. Unfortunately you need to install the player to watch the whole film.


 

I've grabbed the whole film. I will upload it somewhere later tonight where you can watch it or download it without any fuss.


----------



## krink (Feb 23, 2012)

even easier - i found it here on youtube:


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## audiotech (Feb 24, 2012)

Remember this. ^ Paul was spot on about the BNP result in East London.


----------



## Red Storm (Feb 24, 2012)

krink said:


> even easier - i found it here on youtube:




Looks like someone has used my copy that I put up. I can't upload long videos to youtube only 15 min ones.


----------



## Red Storm (Feb 24, 2012)

http://antifascistarchive.com/2012/02/12/fighting-talk-journal-of-anti-fascist-action/

1-25 Fighting Talks now up.


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## malatesta32 (Feb 24, 2012)

nice one mate! ^


----------



## Nigel (Feb 25, 2012)

krink said:


> even easier - i found it here on youtube:



He looks really young in that video.


----------



## Nigel (Feb 25, 2012)

happie chappie said:


> There was a notorious clash between the NF and anti-fascists at Hatfield Poly in the late 1970s when the Front came off by far the worst.
> 
> http://www.wordmagazine.co.uk/content/gig-and-festival-violence
> 
> ...


 
Regarding Nicky Crane is this him. Sort of remember seeing him in Transmissions video: Psychic TV many moons ago.
I'm pretty sure there is one where he walks around central london covers himself in a white sheet and sets light to himself with a petrol.
http://www.uncarved.org/blog/2004/12/the-strange-case-of-nicola-vincenzio-crane/


----------



## Nigel (Feb 25, 2012)

Loads of pics of Tim Scargill
Now a.k.a TimV ageing rocker Sham69.
lol.
http://www.last.fm/music/Sham+69/+images/9601895


----------



## malatesta32 (Feb 26, 2012)

crane did get involved in PTV and gay porn. apparently he had difficulties keeping a straight face when being 'serviced.'


----------



## malatesta32 (Feb 26, 2012)

and PTV were shit as well. godstar? crivvens!


----------



## josef1878 (Feb 26, 2012)

Nigel said:


> Loads of pics of Tim Scargill
> Now a.k.a TimV ageing rocker Sham69.
> lol.
> http://www.last.fm/music/Sham+69/+images/9601895



Ex- Sham now Pursey's back?


----------



## Inigo Montoya (Feb 29, 2012)

Any fellow anoraks have this book to hand: '_Everyone wants to be fuehrer: _
_national socialism in Australia and New Zealand'_ (1972) by David Harcourt.
Looking for someone to scan up the brief Irish entry on pages 132 - 133.

Much appreciated.


----------



## Red Storm (Mar 1, 2012)




----------



## Fozzie Bear (Mar 1, 2012)

Nigel said:


> Regarding Nicky Crane is this him. Sort of remember seeing him in Transmissions video: Psychic TV many moons ago.
> I'm pretty sure there is one where he walks around central london covers himself in a white sheet and sets light to himself with a petrol.
> http://www.uncarved.org/blog/2004/12/the-strange-case-of-nicola-vincenzio-crane/




"Terminus" is the video with the guy setting himself on fire, but it's not Crane as far as I can remember.

But yeah, it is generally accepted that's him in the video for "Unclean" which you posted, which was also on the "8 Transmissions 8" VHS compilation...

I don't think there's any evidence to suggest that his involvement in Psychic TV extended beyond a bit part in one video, which presumably he was paid for.

Have we mentioned the Nicky Crane novel "Children of the Sun" by Max Schaefer? It's pretty good: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Children-Sun-Max-Schaefer/dp/1847081150


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Mar 1, 2012)

Also apologies, but I've had to take the uncarved.org/blog bit of my site down after it got hacked. If you want to see the Nicky Crane piece then you should be able to get via archive.org or the google cache.

Hopefully it will be back up tonight.

EDIT: working again now


----------



## Red Storm (Mar 1, 2012)

New list of updates to the archive http://antifascistarchive.com/2012/03/01/weekly-update-3/


----------



## Red About Town (Mar 1, 2012)

I have a copy of the Villa anti fascist fanzine that I could post for inclusion on the website. Give me a postal address and I'll send it off.


----------



## cantsin (Mar 1, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> and PTV were shit as well. godstar? crivvens!


 
Not all PTV is "shit " by any means :  : 


And Gen's a trangressive icon, up to and including this latest Pandrogyny malarkey :


----------



## Blagsta (Mar 1, 2012)

Jack the Tab era Psychic TV was ace



it's what got me into acid house/dance music


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 2, 2012)

Genesis. P. Orridge attended a  local Primary School up here.


----------



## cantsin (Mar 2, 2012)

Blagsta said:


> Jack the Tab era Psychic TV was ace
> 
> 
> 
> it's what got me into acid house/dance music




defiinitely,JTT were  UK acid pioneers - some fun Gen/JTT stores from the other half , Rich Norris in this interview : 
http://www.djhistory.com/interviews/richard-norris


----------



## cogg (Mar 2, 2012)

Inigo Montoya said:


> Any fellow anoraks have this book to hand: '_Everyone wants to be fuehrer: _
> _national socialism in Australia and New Zealand'_ (1972) by David Harcourt.
> Looking for someone to scan up the brief Irish entry on pages 132 - 133.
> 
> Much appreciated.


 We have it in the library I work in but it's a reference only copy and there's no scanner there. I can sort a photcopy out if you want and post it to you.


----------



## love detective (Mar 2, 2012)

maybe put that thing in the post while you're at it!


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 5, 2012)

Why no left wing reviews? They've read it.


----------



## articul8 (Mar 5, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Why no left wing reviews? They've read it.


oi  what about ours (Ok it was only short but still...)


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 5, 2012)

I said left wing


----------



## articul8 (Mar 5, 2012)




----------



## Red Storm (Mar 14, 2012)

http://antifascistarchive.com/2012/03/14/weekly-update-5/

Nothing new on the Anti-Fascist Archive but people might be interested to see the stats of the archive I've put up. Shows what people are googleing to find the archive, where they're from and what websites have directed them to the archive.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Mar 14, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Why no left wing reviews? They've read it.


 
There was a review in the Stickies magazine over here in Ireland. Then again, it has almost no local relevance over here, as, at least in the South we haven't had any fascists worth mentioning for decades.

I'm not particularly surprised that there haven't been many or any left wing reviews in Britain. The book takes so many sneering pot shots at everyone else on the left that any organisation which reviewed it would feel the need to respond in a polemical style to those attacks rather than deal primarily with the overall arguments made. It's an inevitable consequence of the vitriol thrown about in the book. And if a present day organisation is going to get involved in publishing lengthy polemical articles, they are going to do it against people who are still around and who still in some way effect their own work, not against what they would see as a bunch of retired minor leaguers.


----------



## Red Storm (Mar 14, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Why no left wing reviews? They've read it.


 
Weekly Worker did one.


----------



## articul8 (Mar 14, 2012)

Nigel Irritable said:


> they are going to do it against people who are still around and who still in some way effect their own work


Like Taaffe's extended polemical response to Rob Sewell?


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Mar 14, 2012)

articul8 said:


> Like Taaffe's extended polemical response to Rob Sewell?


 
Yes. Sewell's mob are still around. In some countries (obviously not Britain) they are reasonably major players by the small standards of the socialist left. And they lay claim to (and contest) much the same history as the Socialist Party. Therefore, from an SP point of view they might occasionally be worth responding to.

But if Socialist Appeal (and the IMT) disappear and then ten years later Sewell emerges from the vasty deep and publishes a book which, amongst other things, has a few pops at the Socialist Party, he probably wouldn't get a response. As really, why would they bother?


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Mar 14, 2012)

Third rule of left wing book reviewing: You don't review anything which has a pop at your organisation unless you are going to spend most of the review responding to those attacks in a polemical style.

Fourth rule of left wing book reviewing: You don't bother writing polemics against other groups, and in particular against smaller groups or dead groups or worse still groups that are both dead and smaller, unless there's some obvious advantage to doing so.

(Rule One is that the point of a review of a book published by your own outfit is to sell the book, not evaluate it. Rule Two is that reviews of any artistic work should always be primarily about the soundness of its politics, with its artistic merits very much a secondary issue).


----------



## Red Storm (Mar 14, 2012)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Third rule of left wing book reviewing: You don't review anything which has a pop at your organisation unless you are going to spend most of the review responding to those attacks in a polemical style.
> 
> Fourth rule of left wing book reviewing: You don't bother writing polemics against other groups, and in particular against smaller groups or dead groups or worse still groups that are both dead and smaller, unless there's some obvious advantage to doing so.
> 
> (Rule One is that the point of a review of a book published by your own outfit is to sell the book, not evaluate it. Rule Two is that reviews of any artistic work should always be primarily about the soundness of its politics, with its artistic merits very much a secondary issue).


 
lulz


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 15, 2012)

Nigel Irritable said:


> There was a review in the Stickies magazine over here in Ireland. Then again, it has almost no local relevance over here, as, at least in the South we haven't had any fascists worth mentioning for decades.
> 
> I'm not particularly surprised that there haven't been many or any left wing reviews in Britain. The book takes so many sneering pot shots at everyone else on the left that any organisation which reviewed it would feel the need to respond in a polemical style to those attacks rather than deal primarily with the overall arguments made. It's an inevitable consequence of the vitriol thrown about in the book. And if a present day organisation is going to get involved in publishing lengthy polemical articles, they are going to do it against people who are still around and who still in some way effect their own work, not against what they would see as a bunch of retired minor leaguers.


 

I knew it wouldn't be any fault of the Socialist Party


----------



## Red Storm (Mar 15, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> I knew it wouldn't be any fault of the Socialist Party


 
He's in the SP!


----------



## Fedayn (Mar 15, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> He's in the SP!


 
That is The 39theStep's point.


----------



## Red Storm (Mar 15, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> That is The 39theStep's point.


 
I've never really seen much sectarianism from an SP member. 

And why has he got the hump so much about book when most of the criticism is levelled at the SWP.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 15, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> I've never really seen much sectarianism from an SP member.
> 
> And why has he got the hump so much about book when most of the criticism is levelled at the SWP.


 
Obviously you are not familiar with Nigel Irritable .


----------



## Fedayn (Mar 15, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> I've never really seen much sectarianism from an SP member.
> 
> And why has he got the hump so much about book when most of the criticism is levelled at the SWP.


 
They're not the worst this is true. But they have their fyed in the wool hacks as every similar group has.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Mar 16, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> I knew it wouldn't be any fault of the Socialist Party


 
I'm not sure how you read my either of my posts on this bit of the thread and got the idea that I think that the main left organisations are justified in not reviewing the book. The stuff about the rules of left wing book reviews should have been a bit of a giveaway that I don't think much of the review policy of any left publications.

In the post you were quoting, I was explaining why left groups wouldn't bother reviewing it, not saying that they shouldn't. Personally, I think that a good, critical, review would be worth publishing. But I understand why one probably won't be, and why a review would probably be dominated by what are in the greater scheme of the books argument side issues if one was. And it's the book sneering tone about pretty much every left group which made sure of that.

Not of course that you're at all likely to accept that any fault at all rests with the Red Action old boys society.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Mar 16, 2012)

Who is Rob Sewell more importantly?


----------



## Red Storm (Mar 16, 2012)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> Who is Rob Sewell more importantly?



Socialist Appeal chap. Went with Ted Grant.

I think it's funny how Nigel thinks the SP is so much more socially relevant that they're above reviewing other left groups books.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Mar 17, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> I think it's funny how Nigel thinks the SP is so much more socially relevant that they're above reviewing other left groups books.


 
It has nothing to do with being "more socially relevant"!

Bigger groups don't generally bother to review books from smaller groups (or dead groups) unless they have a good reason to do so. That goes for "socially relevant" groups and completely irrelevant groups alike. I don't think that's a good thing. In fact, I think that the AFA book should be taken seriously, both in terms of its merits and its flaws. I'm just pointing out why left groups haven't done so.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 17, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> Socialist Appeal chap. Went with Ted Grant.
> 
> I think it's funny how Nigel thinks the SP is so much more socially relevant that they're above reviewing other left groups books.


 
They have been forced in into that position because of the books 'sneering tone'. Which is rich coming from Nigel Irritable


----------



## past caring (Mar 17, 2012)

Nigel Irritable said:


> It has nothing to do with being "more socially relevant"!
> 
> Bigger groups don't generally bother to review books from smaller groups (or dead groups) unless they have a good reason to do so. That goes for "socially relevant" groups and completely irrelevant groups alike. I don't think that's a good thing. In fact, I think that the AFA book should be taken seriously, both in terms of its merits and its flaws. I'm just pointing out why left groups haven't done so.


 
"Bigger groups" - you daft cunt.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 17, 2012)

Nigel Irritable said:


> It has nothing to do with being "more socially relevant"!
> 
> Bigger groups don't generally bother to review books from smaller groups (or dead groups) unless they have a good reason to do so. That goes for "socially relevant" groups and completely irrelevant groups alike. I don't think that's a good thing. In fact, I think that the AFA book should be taken seriously, both in terms of its merits and its flaws. I'm just pointing out why left groups haven't done so.




No doubt you will be using your considerable good office within  the Committee for a Workers' International (CWI), 'a socialist international that organises in over 40 countries' to argue that it should be reviewed.

 Without wanting to stray into the halcyon days of the Cockneyrebel theory of size and irrelevance, RA may have been small but punched well above their weight in impact.politically. What the book correctly points out is that the role of  'bigger' groups like the SP in stopping the fash was not only minimal and half hearted but got in the way of their ( the bigger Lefts)  business is usual.In other words the book understandably doesn't have too much to say about Militant/SPs activity in this area that is too positive. 

One of the reasons for that was Militant/SP operated in a  parallel universe whereby their  anti racist/anti facsist delivery was narrowly and almost exclusively confined to their franchises of Youth Against Racism in Europe (YRE) and the disastrous Panther UK . They weren't in the ANL Mark One  and weren't in AFA. 

Despite the sneering tone of the book a quick glance through the Socialist Party website does give us plenty of reassurance that it was in fact Militant the forerunners of the SP who were really at the heart of antifacsism in this period rather than AFA. So much so AFA is never mentioned . This explains the SPs version of history which pretty much says due to YRE  organising the Welling march  the BNP were left isolated leaving a situation in which  :

'Their only national public activity - a paper sale in East London - was closed down and they lost their only councillor. Within two years the BNP's headquarters had been shut.
This success was made possible by the approach of groups like the YRE and Militant Labour (the forerunner of the Socialist Party).'

.." In the early 1990s Militant Labour in Tower Hamlets (the Socialist Party's forerunner) emulated the work of the Stepney CP and the YCL in the 1930s. They played a key role in driving the racist BNP permanently from their provocative paper sale in Brick Lane in the heart of Tower Hamlets' Bangladeshi community."


Taaffe's chapter on Fighting fascism in his treatise The Rise of Militant not only reveals that Militant were better at stewarding demos than the SWP but that after the battle of Welling  (which is seen as a key event in turning the tide against the fash  rather than the battle of Waterloo) that Militant issued a call for  a   "united front of all anti-racist organizations with the trade union and labor movement involved." This "would push the fascists back into the sewers."

The real reason the book wasn't reviewed by the SP is that they would have to rewrite history.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Mar 17, 2012)

past caring said:


> "Bigger groups" - you daft cunt.


 
I was amused to see the previous reference to 'minor-leaguers'. It took AFA the best part of a decade to clear NF,B&H,C18, and BNP off the streets. Under similar treatment the SP would have been happy to last the best part of a month.


----------



## intersol32 (Mar 17, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> I was amused to see the previous reference to 'minor-leaguers'. It took AFA the best part of a decade to clear NF,B&H,C18, and BNP off the streets. Under similar treatment the SP would have been happy to last the best part of a month.


 
During that time much of the pressure that was placed upon the fash in order to secure their retreat was (for obvious reasons) not claimed by AFA, even though it would have been perfectly within our remit to do so.

Meanwhile groups like Militant and the SWP were more than happy to take credit for victories and incidents which they had little or no part in.

Probably another reason why such mainstream Left groups were so hostile to the BTF book. It effectively debunks the myth within their own organisations that they were instrumental in removing the Fascists from the streets.


----------



## Deareg (Mar 17, 2012)

Talking of others making claims, I remember 3 fascists been done by Red Action members one Sunday night in Kings Cross, and later on there was an article in a gay newspaper with some group calling itself the Gay liberation army claiming responsibility.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Mar 17, 2012)

Deareg said:


> Talking of others making claims, I remember 3 fascists been done by Red Action members one Sunday night in Kings Cross, and later on there was an article in a gay newspaper with some group calling itself the Gay liberation army claiming responsibility.


 
To be fair I'd say that one ought to be forgivable, just for the stick the fascists concerned must of got off their mates for getting a pasting off what they would have seen as a "bunch of queers"


----------



## laptop (Mar 17, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> To be fair I'd say that one ought to be forgivable, just for the stick the fascists concerned must of got off their mates for getting a pasting off what they would have seen as a "bunch of queers"


 
Not just forgivable but genius


----------



## Deareg (Mar 17, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> To be fair I'd say that one ought to be forgivable, just for the stick the fascists concerned must of got off their mates for getting a pasting off what they would have seen as a "bunch of queers"


That was the attitude that was taken at the time.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Mar 17, 2012)

past caring said:


> "Bigger groups" - you daft cunt.


 
Yes, bigger groups. Red Action was a piddling little group even by the small standards of the socialist left. Which means that larger groups either don't give a shit what they say or affect not to give a shit what they say. That's all the more so when the people talking aren't even a little group any more but a bunch of retired members of a defunct little group. I'm surprised that this is news to any of you. I don't think that's a good thing. Just because a group like Red Action combined diminutive stature with a wild sneering arrogance towards everyone else doesn't mean that they can't have something of interest to say.

How's the IWCA project coming along these days, by the way? Still showing the rest of us how it's done? I'm surprised that you lot have the time for all this arrogant bluster on internet message boards when working class power is just a mini-marathon away.


----------



## past caring (Mar 17, 2012)

Has anyone on here ever met this cunt in real life? Does he talk like this in real life? If so, how many people manage to resist giving him a dig?


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Mar 18, 2012)

past caring said:


> Has anyone on here ever met this cunt in real life? Does he talk like this in real life? If so, how many people manage to resist giving him a dig?


 
You lads are fucking hilarious. You dish out non stop sneering bollocks about everyone else on the left, but if anyone responds with anything other than respect for your deceased grouplet you whine and yap endlessly. If you got a tenth as much stick as the SWP posters here you'd spontaneously combust. I wasn't even having a go at you and you managed to get the hump because I didn't display the requisite reverence.


----------



## Red Storm (Mar 18, 2012)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Yes, bigger groups. Red Action was a piddling little group even by the small standards of the socialist left. Which means that larger groups either don't give a shit what they say or affect not to give a shit what they say. That's all the more so when the people talking aren't even a little group any more but a bunch of retired members of a defunct little group. I'm surprised that this is news to any of you. I don't think that's a good thing. Just because a group like Red Action combined diminutive stature with a wild sneering arrogance towards everyone else doesn't mean that they can't have something of interest to say.
> 
> How's the IWCA project coming along these days, by the way? Still showing the rest of us how it's done? I'm surprised that you lot have the time for all this arrogant bluster on internet message boards when working class power is just a mini-marathon away.


 
mint


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 18, 2012)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Yes, bigger groups. Red Action was a piddling little group even by the small standards of the socialist left. Which means that larger groups either don't give a shit what they say or affect not to give a shit what they say. That's all the more so when the people talking aren't even a little group any more but a bunch of retired members of a defunct little group. I'm surprised that this is news to any of you. I don't think that's a good thing. Just because a group like Red Action combined diminutive stature with a wild sneering arrogance towards everyone else doesn't mean that they can't have something of interest to say.
> 
> How's the IWCA project coming along these days, by the way? Still showing the rest of us how it's done? I'm surprised that you lot have the time for all this arrogant bluster on internet message boards when working class power is just a mini-marathon away.


 

No wonder Violet Elisabeth has anorexia


----------



## SpineyNorman (Mar 18, 2012)

Nigel Irritable said:


> You lads are fucking hilarious. You dish out non stop sneering bollocks about everyone else on the left, but if anyone responds with anything other than respect for your deceased grouplet you whine and yap endlessly. If you got a tenth as much stick as the SWP posters here you'd spontaneously combust. I wasn't even having a go at you and you managed to get the hump because I didn't display the requisite reverence.





Nigel Irritable said:


> Yes, bigger groups. Red Action was a piddling little group even by the small standards of the socialist left. Which means that larger groups either don't give a shit what they say or affect not to give a shit what they say. That's all the more so when the people talking aren't even a little group any more but a bunch of retired members of a defunct little group. I'm surprised that this is news to any of you. I don't think that's a good thing. Just because a group like Red Action combined diminutive stature with a wild sneering arrogance towards everyone else doesn't mean that they can't have something of interest to say.
> 
> How's the IWCA project coming along these days, by the way? Still showing the rest of us how it's done? I'm surprised that you lot have the time for all this arrogant bluster on internet message boards when working class power is just a mini-marathon away



 

I've got to admit that there is sometimes a knee-jerk defence thing going on when anyone criticises the IWCA, like on the EDL thread I was asking why it failed to take off and even though I made it clear that I thought there was a lot we can learn from the IWCA, the response I got was along the lines of "how can you say it failed when the left achieved even less etc." It makes it difficult to discuss it critically.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Mar 18, 2012)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Yes, bigger groups. Red Action was a piddling little group even by the small standards of the socialist left. Which means that larger groups either don't give a shit what they say or affect not to give a shit what they say. That's all the more so when the people talking aren't even a little group any more but a bunch of retired members of a defunct little group. I'm surprised that this is news to any of you. I don't think that's a good thing. Just because a group like Red Action combined diminutive stature with a wild sneering arrogance towards everyone else doesn't mean that they can't have something of interest
> 
> How's the IWCA project coming along these days, by the way? Still showing the rest of us how it's done? I'm surprised that you lot have the time for all this arrogant bluster on internet message boards when working class power is just a mini-marathon away.



Size as they say isn't everything. In terms of what was achieved, in terms of impact and in terms of mapping out a progressive way forward post AFA then the record speaks for itself. How's the campaign for a new workers party coming along by the way?


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## Nigel Irritable (Mar 18, 2012)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Size as they say isn't everything. In terms of what was achieved, in terms of impact and in terms of mapping out a progressive way forward post AFA then the record speaks for itself.


 
Well, yes it does. They've shown us all how to go from a small political organisation to a running club in just 17 years. I'm just not sure who would want to follow this particular map, or why.

The thing that cracks me up about the small band of online IWCA fans is their sheer lack of self-awareness. They love to dish out abuse to all and sundry on the left, but have absolutely no sense of proportion when it comes to the profoundly limited results their own approach has produced over the last 17 years. If you listen to them you'd almost think that the IWCA had actually had some kind of significant impact, rather than getting a handful of councillors elected and then slowly falling apart.

The less funny part is that there actually are things worth learning from and about the IWCA experience, or there would be if its proponents ever got past self-aggrandizing bluster and actually attempted to make some kind of rational assessment of nearly two decades work.


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## Red Storm (Mar 18, 2012)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Well, yes it does. They've shown us all how to go from a small political organisation to a running club in just 17 years. I'm just not sure who would want to follow this particular map, or why.
> 
> The thing that cracks me up about the small band of online IWCA fans is their sheer lack of self-awareness. They love to dish out abuse to all and sundry on the left, but have absolutely no sense of proportion when it comes to the profoundly limited results their own approach has produced over the last 17 years.


 

The IWCA seem open to discuss why their project gain larger ground much more than can be said of the SP and SWP. 

Which region of the SP are you in, if I may ask?


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## Nigel Irritable (Mar 18, 2012)

Red Storm said:
			
		

> The IWCA seem open to discuss why their project gain larger ground much more than can be said of the SP and SWP


 
There have been endless discussions of the IWCA here. Fairly consistently any remotely difficult questions about the IWCA's progress or lack thereof are met with the usual sneering about the rest of the left rather than real attempts to answer.




			
				Red Storm said:
			
		

> Which region of the SP are you in, if I may ask?


 
The Southern Region of the Irish SP.


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## audiotech (Mar 18, 2012)

For sneering at most, if not all of the left have a gander at Derek Hattans book. An abysmal piece of writing.


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## Pickman's model (Mar 18, 2012)

audiotech said:


> For sneering at all and sudry at most, if not all of the left have a gander at Derek Hattans book. An abysmal piece of writing.


as is derek hatton's "inside left"


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## audiotech (Mar 18, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> as is derek hatton's "inside left"



That's the one.


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## frogwoman (Mar 18, 2012)

> No doubt you will be using your considerable good office within the Committee for a Workers' International (CWI), 'a socialist international that organises in over 40 countries'


 
have the IWCA done this then? and is the CWI being in 40 countries a bad thing?

because *i never see you lot. *

anywhere.

not being funny but "paper sellers" and "leninists" get slagged off on here all the time and a lot of the time it's accurate but a lot of the time it isn't. i agree that there is a need to do more community work (doing things that actually make a difference in a local area) and have the SP and other trots done enough? almost certainly not. but it is happening. i've seen it. i've seen the difference that kind of patient steady work can do in an area about issues that people actually care about and it's a big mistake to think that the IWCA are the only ones doing it.

and there have been things the SP have done in the past that i've disagreed with and probably will be those things again and i'll say so. perfectly prepared to say so. at the end of the day tho i have seen what we've done in my local area and the type of stuff we've been able to get people involved in. believe it or not i actually agree with a lot of the criticisms made on here of the left, including at times the sp, however if you dish it out you should be prepared to take some of it as well


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## Red Storm (Mar 18, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> have the IWCA done this then? and is the CWI being in 40 countries a bad thing?
> 
> because *i never see you lot. *
> 
> ...


 
IWCA is so local though. SP is much more broader geographically. Just because you've not seen them doesn't mean they're not doing work in Blackbird Lyes for example. 

I never see Wigan Green Socialists doing anything but that is because I generally avoid Wigan...


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## SpineyNorman (Mar 18, 2012)

And just to prove the point...



Red Storm said:


> The IWCA seem open to discuss why their project gain larger ground much more than can be said of the SP and SWP.


 
I wish that was true but it's not is it? Blaming the rest of the left for not joining the IWCA isn't really a satisfactory answer. Why didn't it grow in the constituency it was aimed at (which wasn't the organised left)? If people are serious about this model, and think it contains within it tactical insights that could help further the interests of the working class then they ought to be looking seriously at why it didn't take off rather than using trots as an excuse.



Red Storm said:


> Which region of the SP are you in, if I may ask?


 
Which region of the IWCA are you in, if I may ask?


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## SpineyNorman (Mar 18, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> IWCA is so local though. SP is much more broader geographically. Just because you've not seen them doesn't mean they're not doing work in Blackbird Lyes for example.
> 
> I never see Wigan Green Socialists doing anything but that is because I generally avoid Wigan...


 
And the obvious follow on question to that is why hasn't it spread beyond Blackbird Leys? If they think this is the correct model why don't they respond to emails asking for more information about how to set up similar orgs in other areas?

These are serious questions that nobody appears to want to address.


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## Red Storm (Mar 18, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> And just to prove the point...
> 
> I wish that was true but it's not is it? Blaming the rest of the left for not joining the IWCA isn't really a satisfactory answer. Why didn't it grow in the constituency it was aimed at (which wasn't the organised left)? If people are serious about this model, and think it contains within it tactical insights that could help further the interests of the working class then they ought to be looking seriously at why it didn't take off rather than using trots as an excuse.


 
I think on U75 there has been an engagement as to why it didn't take off nationally. There was a good debate on EDL Watch. Maybe they don't have all the answers to our questions. I'm as eager as you to know.



> Which region of the IWCA are you in, if I may ask?


 
Haha, I don't know whether this is rhetorical. I'm not in the IWCA. I was in the SP from age of 16-18 though. I'm a proud unaligned Red.

Plus 'I've never seen them around'! Although this is most likely because they aren't active in my area 



SpineyNorman said:


> And the obvious follow on question to that is why hasn't it spread beyond Blackbird Leys? If they think this is the correct model why don't they respond to emails asking for more information about how to set up similar orgs in other areas?
> 
> These are serious questions that nobody appears to want to address.


 
Like I said I want to know too. There's more of us bombarding them with questions, that perhaps they don't have the answers too, than those who can answer them on here.


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## frogwoman (Mar 18, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> IWCA is so local though. SP is much more broader geographically. Just because you've not seen them doesn't mean they're not doing work in Blackbird Lyes for example.


 
_why_ though?

i've been on quite a few demos in oxford and i haven't seen them (iwca) at a single one. i've never had a single leaflet from them. never seen at any picket lines. i've never seen them anywhere. i know giving out leaflets and going on demos is a bit of an old fashioned middle class cobweb leftie thing but ya know ...

we've done a lot of things round here such as helping to set up the trades council, organising demos and solidarity for several strikes, organising meetings on estates about local issues (and getting A LOT of people along to them and building a campaign out of it) in a very spread out and often quite cut off rural area. i'm not for a moment saying that other groups/individuals including the iwca haven't done the same or that the work they've done isn't as or in some cases more valuable.

i honestly am not having a go, and I don't think it's out of order to ask that, and ask what could have been done better, what worked, what didn't etc? And if we're going to talk about why the left is unsuccessful (and i definitely don't think that the CWI is perfect) then why is it that having members in lots of countries is like something to be looked down upon? if a lot of the whole point of these discussions is why the left is not growing as much as it should be but the far right is?


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## SpineyNorman (Mar 18, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> I think on U75 there has been an engagement as to why it didn't take off nationally. There was a good debate on EDL Watch. Maybe they don't have all the answers to our questions. I'm as eager as you to know.


 
I was involved in that debate. No real answers were forthcoming apart from those I detailed above. If you remember differently please refresh my memory.





Red Storm said:


> Haha, I don't know whether this is rhetorical. I'm not in the IWCA. I was in the SP from age of 16-18 though. I'm a proud unaligned Red.
> 
> Plus 'I've never seen them around'! Although this is most likely because they aren't active in my area


 
Why not join? You could always email them via their national website. They won't bother replying but that's not the point.



Red Storm said:


> Like I said I want to know too. There's more of us bombarding them with questions, that perhaps they don't have the answers too, than those who can answer them on here.


 
I'm afraid to say that those same questions have been asked over and over again and I've yet to see a single answer. It looked like Joe might have been getting close to one on the EDL thread but that exchange ended prematurely amid a serious derail. Members of other groups are constantly required to justify their positions and account for perceived failings, why the double standards? And if they don't have answers then maybe there's a flaw in the model itself. I suspect we'll never know unfortunately.


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## Red Storm (Mar 18, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> I was involved in that debate. No real answers were forthcoming apart from those I detailed above. If you remember differently please refresh my memory.
> 
> Why not join? You could always email them via their national website. They won't bother replying but that's not the point.
> 
> I'm afraid to say that those same questions have been asked over and over again and I've yet to see a single answer. It looked like Joe might have been getting close to one on the EDL thread but that exchange ended prematurely amid a serious derail. Members of other groups are constantly required to justify their positions and account for perceived failings, why the double standards? And if they don't have answers then maybe there's a flaw in the model itself. I suspect we'll never know unfortunately.


 
Maybe Joe had other things to do. I don't know. Like I said I would like answers too. I only want them to satisfy my political curiosity, it's not like with the answers anyone is going to do anything with them. 

I think my political views are not closely synchronised enough with the IWCA's to join. My mate did tell me that he once called to find out more information only to get a prickly response from the answerer, now I know where the IWCA came from I can imagine it haha. 

Anyway I'm about to upload a couple of documents to the Anti-Fascist Archive which will be of interest you and others regarding this issue.


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## frogwoman (Mar 18, 2012)

woe betide you if you're one of the dreaded lumpen!


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## SpineyNorman (Mar 18, 2012)

Maybe this "prickly" attitude could go some way towards explaining its failure to grow. And why wouldn't anyone do anything with the answers? There's plenty of us involved in grassroots level campaigning, I'm involved in setting up a community union right now. Answers to those questions could have some practical application so it's a shame none are forthcoming really.


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## SpineyNorman (Mar 18, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> woe betide you if you're one of the dreaded lumpen!


 
That's me fucked then. Do you think they have lumpen detectors on their email? You know, like a spam filter? That would explain a lot.


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## SpineyNorman (Mar 18, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> I think my political views are not closely synchronised enough with the IWCA's to join.


 
I thought one of the refreshing things about the IWCA was the fact you didn't need to be ideologically "pure" to join.




Red Storm said:


> Anyway I'm about to upload a couple of documents to the Anti-Fascist Archive which will be of interest you and others regarding this issue.


 
Cheers. I'll take a look.


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## laptop (Mar 18, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> woe betide you if you're one of the dreaded lumpen!


 
www.ilpa.org.uk is already taken - so the Independent Lumpen-Proletariat Association is out as the name for the _Salon des refusés_. 

Oopss... bit of a giveway there...


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## Red Storm (Mar 18, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> I thought one of the refreshing things about the IWCA was the fact you didn't need to be ideologically "pure" to join.


 
But I think you should be


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## SpineyNorman (Mar 18, 2012)

laptop said:


> www.ilpa.org.uk is already taken - so the Independent Lumpen-Proletariat Association is out as the name for the _Salon des refusés_.
> 
> Oopss... bit of a giveway there...


 
What about Independent Chav Scum Association (ICSA)?


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## Red Storm (Mar 18, 2012)

http://antifascistarchive.com/literature/cutting-edge-1/

^^^ plus the next picture. 

The writing isn't very visable however I don't know what I can do about that. 

http://antifascistarchive.com/2012/02/13/anti-fascist-action-publications/ 

The bottom link.


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## SpineyNorman (Mar 18, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> But I think you should be


 
'kinell, you're even more Leninist than the CWI!


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## laptop (Mar 18, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> What about Independent Chav Scum Association (ICSA)?


 
Institute of Chartered Secretaries and Administrators


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## frogwoman (Mar 18, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> But I think you should be


 
nah, I think it would be a bit creepy if every member of a group agreed on absolutely everything. maybe that's just me though.


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## Pickman's model (Mar 18, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> What about Independent Chav Scum Association (ICSA)?


international cultic studies association http://www.icsahome.com/


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## past caring (Mar 18, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> I've got to admit that there is sometimes a knee-jerk defence thing going on when anyone criticises the IWCA, like on the EDL thread I was asking why it failed to take off and even though I made it clear that I thought there was a lot we can learn from the IWCA, the response I got was along the lines of "how can you say it failed when the left achieved even less etc." It makes it difficult to discuss it critically.


 
This is really just a charicature of the discussion, isn't it. I thought the actual discussion was a reasonable one - or is it the case that you have to appear to be on side now the big boys (nigel) have come to play?


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## SpineyNorman (Mar 18, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> international cultic studies association http://www.icsahome.com/


 
Fuck's sake


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## SpineyNorman (Mar 18, 2012)

past caring said:


> This is really just a charicature of the discussion, isn't it. I thought the actual discussion was a reasonable one - or is it the case that you have to appear to be on side now the big boys (nigel) have come to play?


 
Not at all, it was a decent discussion once we'd got over the initial knee-jerk reaction and as I said Joe was starting to provide some decent answers, but the thread got derailed and it ended there. I'd take it as a compliment if people wanted to know more about something I'd been involved in creating. I just don't understand why people appear to be so reluctant to talk about it.


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## Red Storm (Mar 18, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> 'kinell, you're even more Leninist than the CWI!


 
I'm only bloody joking. 

Plus what is it with the word 'Leninist' and U75...


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## Red Storm (Mar 18, 2012)

http://antifascistarchive.com/2012/02/01/a-collection-of-beatings-and-images/ub40-anl-1/

Older AFA members please click the above link. Its a picture from 1981 (IIRC) and features someone you may know. Might provide a chuckle.


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## SpineyNorman (Mar 18, 2012)

This is where we got to on the other thread before it got derailed. If anyone (Joe Reilly/Past Caring?) wants to continue it I'd be grateful as I do think there are practical lessons to be learned from this.



Joe Reilly said:


> There are two separate questions here: why did the IWCA not attract more activists nationally, an organisational question, which past caring has touched on, and 'why did the IWCA approach not take off among the working class' which seems to me to be different.
> 
> All importantly I think for a prototype, is the fact that where implemented, the iWCA strategy was supported by thousands of working class people. Some went further and became activists candidates and indeed Cllrs themselves. The flaw in the plan, lay in the ability to spread the message and at the same time fend off the increasingly hysterical attacks, not just from the Left but increasingly from the mainstream parties, working in tandem.
> 
> Only if the problem had been reversed (an organisation the size of the SA/SLP/Respect but scant appeal beyond that, and a strategy with working class appeal but no real organisation) would 'failure' be an appropriate verdict.


 


SpineyNorman said:


> Don't get me wrong, I agree that in comparison with pretty much any left wing initiative since the miners' strike (and possibly before) the IWCA was a massive success. Maybe failure is the wrong word, I don't know, but why didn't it spread? Do you think there's anything that could be done differently in future? Or do you think the obstacles the IWCA faced are insurmountable (they may be for all I know)?
> 
> I'm not trying to make out it was a failure, in fact it's the relative success of the IWCA that makes this such an important question IMO. I think that approach probably is the way forward (if there is one at all) but the chances are that whenever and wherever it is tried it's likely to come up against the same problems as it did the first time around. If that's not addressed the limited success of the initial IWCA project is all we can hope for (and possibly even less, as Labour &co. will be expecting it next time).


 
Or should I start a new thread? If so it'll have to wait till tomorrow cos I need to get back to the work I've been avoiding doing all day.


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## Red Storm (Mar 18, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> This is where we got to on the other thread before it got derailed. If anyone (Joe Reilly/Past Caring?) wants to continue it I'd be grateful as I do think there are practical lessons to be learned from this.
> 
> Or should I start a new thread? If so it'll have to wait till tomorrow cos I need to get back to the work I've been avoiding doing all day.


 
New thread would be good but sometimes they don't take off. I think if it were possible to snip out the bits from the edl thread to form a new thread it would have been good.


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## Red Storm (Mar 18, 2012)

http://antifascistarchive.com/fascist-stickers/

^^new fash stickers


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## Red Storm (Mar 19, 2012)

A scrapbook sent to me, by a kind U75 member, with hundreds of anti-fascist clippings is finally ready to upload. Its 167 page pdf and the quality isn't 100%. Printing the bastard off would probably be the best option for those really interested.

Here it is: http://antifascistarchive.com/2012/03/19/the-scrapbook/


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## The39thStep (Mar 19, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> have the IWCA done this then? and is the CWI being in 40 countries a bad thing?
> 
> because *i never see you lot. *
> 
> ...


 
Great pity that you take a similar tack that your embarrassing comrade  does which is to avoid  the subject being debated ie why the SP took a decision not to review the book. Your boss thinks it is because RA were sneering, others think it challenges he SPs version of their role

You have followed the discussions on here about the history of anti fascsism. Does it bear any resemblance to the version on the SP site ?


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## frogwoman (Mar 19, 2012)

I've got no idea why they haven't reviewed the book yet. Tell you what when I'm done with it I'll write a review of it myself. Might take some time though for me to finish as I do have a job, etc.

and "my boss"? sorry, it may come as a surprise to you but i'm perfectly capable of thinking for myself ta, nigel irritable isn't "my boss" ffs. never even met the guy.


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## Nigel Irritable (Mar 19, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> Great pity that you take a similar tack that your embarrassing comrade does which is to avoid the subject being debated ie why the SP took a decision not to review the book. Your boss thinks it is because RA were sneering, others think it challenges he SPs version of their role


 
"Your boss"?

You are misrepresenting my view of why no left organisation other than the CPGB (which specialises in reporting on the doings of other groups) has reviewed the Red Action / AFA book. They haven't done so because none of them give a flying fuck what a bunch of retired members of a long deceased little left group have to say for themselves. They'd be about as likely to review a book by Workers Power.

I realise that this book is vitally important to a small number of AFA old boys and another handful of internet hangers on, but to other left groups it's just another publication churned out by an irrelevant and now off the scene rival. I understand that point of view, but think it's a pity, because underneath the bluster and arrogance and sneering, the book contains some political points, however unevenly developed, which are potentially worth engaging with.


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## Deareg (Mar 19, 2012)

Nigel Irritable said:


> "Your boss"?
> 
> You are misrepresenting my view of why no left organisation other than the CPGB (which specialises in reporting on the doings of other groups) has reviewed the Red Action / AFA book. They haven't done so because none of them give a flying fuck what a bunch of retired members of a long deceased little left group have to say for themselves. They'd be about as likely to review a book by Workers Power.
> 
> I realise that this book is vitally important to a small number of AFA old boys and another handful of internet hangers on, but to other left groups it's just another publication churned out by an irrelevant and now off the scene rival. I understand that point of view, but think it's a pity, because underneath the bluster and arrogance and sneering, the book contains some political points, however unevenly developed, which are potentially worth engaging with.


Why do you keep banging on about Red Action's sneering when you sound as if you want to throw up every time the name comes into your head?


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Mar 19, 2012)

Deareg said:


> Why do you keep banging on about Red Action's sneering when you sound as if you want to throw up every time the name comes into your head?


 
Because I keep hoping that sooner or later some of their former members and cheerleaders on here will develop a bit of self-awareness, and realise that constantly putting the boot into everyone else on the allegedly "irrelevant', "failed", etc left while behaving like sulky children if anyone is remotely critical of their own group isn't a very rational way to behave.

For the record, and despite the best efforts of some on here, I have quite a bit of respect for Red Action and the IWCA - in particular their refusal to retreat from class politics and their willingness to do some thinking at times rather than simply continuing with the same political routine. I don't agree with quite a lot of what they've had to say for themselves, but they are more intrinsically interesting than the likes of Workers Power or most other groups of that ilk.


----------



## Deareg (Mar 19, 2012)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Because I keep hoping that sooner or later some of their former members and cheerleaders on here will develop a bit of self-awareness, and realise that constantly putting the boot into everyone else on the allegedly "irrelevant', "failed", etc left while behaving like sulky children if anyone is remotely critical of their own group isn't a very rational way to behave.
> 
> For the record, and despite the best efforts of some on here, I have quite a bit of respect for Red Action and the IWCA - in particular their refusal to retreat from class politics and their willingness to do some thinking at times rather than simply continuing with the same political routine. I don't agree with quite a lot of what they've had to say for themselves, but they are more intrinsically interesting than the likes of Workers Power or most other groups of that ilk.


Just because people do not agree with you does not mean that they lack self awarness.

The left is irrelevant.

And in being largely responsible for stemming what was a rising fascist tide back in the 80's and early 90's they achieved more than the left have ever achieved in Britain.

Maybe you have spent too long mixing with middle class lefties that the inarticulate working class seem to be sulky children.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Mar 19, 2012)

Deareg said:


> Just because people do not agree with you does not mean that they lack self awarness.


 
Of course not. However, people who love to dish it out but can't take any criticism without sulking do tend to lack self awareness.




			
				Deareg said:
			
		

> The left is irrelevant.


 
As opposed to the IWCA, which is just a four minute mile from victory?

You see, this is the part that makes you lot seem so ridiculous. RA/AFA/IWCA were going to show how irrelevant and outdated the rest of the left was, get busy in working class communities and demonstrate in practice the superiority of their ideas. And 17 years later, despite having amassed not one ounce of evidence for the superiority of their ideas and methods and indeed having gradually gathered a fair bit of evidence that their approach carries some fairly drastic problems of its own, their cheerleaders are just as arrogant as ever! There's not the slightest hint of reappraisal, nor the slightest toning down of the dismissal of everyone else. There's just an awkward silence whenever anyone asks about the IWCA's own progress and then it's back to putting the boot in.




			
				Deareg said:
			
		

> And in being largely responsible for stemming what was a rising fascist tide back in the 80's and early 90's they achieved more than the left have ever achieved in Britain.


 
Christ almighty, these are actual delusions of grandeur.




			
				Deareg said:
			
		

> Maybe you have spent too long mixing with middle class lefties that the inarticulate working class seem to be sulky children.


 
Yes, that's it. Internet cheerleaders for the IWCA are "the inarticulate working class", as opposed to being a bunch of retired old lefty activists themselves. Get a fucking grip.


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## Deareg (Mar 19, 2012)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Of course not. However, people who love to dish it out but can't take any criticism without sulking do tend to lack self awareness.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Your not sneering, are you?


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Mar 19, 2012)

Deareg said:


> Your not sneering, are you?


 
I'm laughing at the arrogance of the RA/IWCA internet cheerleaders, not shitting on their ideas and methods.

Quite a few times on this board, I've asked, along with others about the progress of the IWCA and about what can be learnt from their approach, both good and bad, but nine times out of ten the only response there ever is is more bluster about the rest of the left. At a certain point, its difficult to avoid concluding that this is because the IWCA, or at least their internet fanclub, don't actually have anything much to say about their last 17 years. That they in fact regard bashing the left as safer territory.

Cockneyrebel used to take a lot of stick from IWCA supporters amongst others about his theory of irrelevance. He'd argue that everyone on the left was small and irrelevant... so therefore it didn't really matter if you were a group of a couple of dozen or a group of a couple of thousand. And he, rightly, used to be laughed at because it was such a self-evidently self-serving point of view. How much sillier is the IWCA version of this attitude, where not only is their own tiny group with nothing much to show for nearly two decades of work, as relevant as any other group, it's in fact the only group that matters.


----------



## Deareg (Mar 19, 2012)

Nigel Irritable said:


> I'm laughing at the arrogance of the RA/IWCA internet cheerleaders, not shitting on their ideas and methods.
> 
> Quite a few times on this board, I've asked, along with others about the progress of the IWCA and about what can be learnt from their approach, both good and bad, but nine times out of ten the only response there ever is is more bluster about the rest of the left. At a certain point, its difficult to avoid concluding that this is because the IWCA, or at least their internet fanclub, don't actually have anything much to say about their last 17 years.


I know fuck all about the IWCA, have never said I was a supporter of it, and not slagging off Red Action makes someone a cheer leader in your narrow mind? you are every thing that you accuse Red Action and their "cheer leaders" of being.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Mar 19, 2012)

Deareg said:
			
		

> have never said I was a supporter of it, and not slagging off Red Action makes someone a cheer leader in your narrow mind?


 
No, but claiming that their early 90s street fights against the BNP and NF were the single most important historical achievement of the British left certainly does make you a cheer leader (or an ex member with a skewed view of the world).


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## SpineyNorman (Mar 19, 2012)

Can you two put your willies away now please?

And although I do think the left can learn a lot from the IWCA approach the idea that AFA/RA/IWCA achieved more than the British left has ever done is clearly nonsense. That doesn't mean it was a total failure but come on, at least try to be objective about it.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Mar 19, 2012)

Deareg said:


> ...not slagging off Red Action makes someone a cheer leader in your narrow mind?


 
I don't know about him but it certainly doesn't for me. This, however...



Deareg said:


> And in being largely responsible for stemming what was a rising fascist tide back in the 80's and early 90's they achieved more than the left have ever achieved in Britain.


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## articul8 (Mar 19, 2012)

who has the comb


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## Smokeandsteam (Mar 19, 2012)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Well, yes it does. They've shown us all how to go from a small political organisation to a running club in just 17 years. I'm just not sure who would want to follow this particular map, or why.
> 
> The thing that cracks me up about the small band of online IWCA fans is their sheer lack of self-awareness. They love to dish out abuse to all and sundry on the left, but have absolutely no sense of proportion when it comes to the profoundly limited results their own approach has produced over the last 17 years. If you listen to them you'd almost think that the IWCA had actually had some kind of significant impact, rather than getting a handful of councillors elected and then slowly falling apart.
> 
> The less funny part is that there actually are things worth learning from and about the IWCA experience, or there would be if its proponents ever got past self-aggrandizing bluster and actually attempted to make some kind of rational assessment of nearly two decades work.



Love the comparison to engagement in a working class community to a 'running club' - it not only indicates your sharp sense of humour but also your deep understanding of what is being attempted. 

In the meantime you haven't answered my question - how is the campaign for a new workers party coming on? When might it be ready to go?


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## Smokeandsteam (Mar 19, 2012)

[quote="Nigel Irritable, post: 11011643, member: 




You see, this is the part that makes you lot seem so ridiculous. RA/AFA/IWCA were going to show how irrelevant and outdated the rest of the left was, get busy in working class communities and demonstrate in practice the superiority of their ideas. And 17 years later, despite having amassed not one ounce of evidence for the superiority of their ideas and methods and indeed having gradually gathered a fair bit of evidence that their approach carries some fairly drastic problems of its own, their cheerleaders are just as arrogant as ever! There's not the slightest hint of reappraisal, nor the slightest toning down of the dismissal of everyone else. There's just an awkward silence whenever anyone asks about the IWCA's own progress and then it's back to putting the boot in.
 .[/quote]

Sadly, for you, the facts suggest that everywhere the IWCA approach has been put into practise it has been a success  - on any measurement such as credibility, support from working class communities and votes. This stands in stark contrast to YRE, NO 2 EU, CNWP and so on and so on.


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## SpineyNorman (Mar 19, 2012)

articul8 said:


> who has the comb


 
The Labour party.


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## SpineyNorman (Mar 19, 2012)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Sadly, for you, the facts suggest that *everywhere the IWCA approach has been put into practise it has been a success* - on any measurement such as credibility, support from working class communities and votes. This stands in stark contrast to YRE, NO 2 EU, CNWP and so on and so on.


 
I mostly agree with that, but if we can get away from the "my dad's bigger than your dad" stuff for a second, can anyone explain why "everywhere the IWCA approach has been put into practice" in reality amounts to a few estates in a relatively small geographical area? Why didn't it catch on?

I know I keep banging on about this but it's a pretty important question, more so now than ever.


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## Nigel Irritable (Mar 19, 2012)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Sadly, for you, the facts suggest that everywhere the IWCA approach has been put into practise it has been a success


 
If this was actually true it wouldn't be remotely "sad" for me. I'd be overjoyed. The problem is that it isn't true. In fact, it's fucking nonsense of precisely the sort I'm talking about. It's as if the last 17 years hasn't happened at all.

What has actually happened is that in most of the places "where the IWCA approach has been put into practice" it met quite quickly with some small scale local success, particularly in terms of getting a good vote in a council ward. And then it couldn't be maintained and within a year or two or three there was nothing left. The solitary exception is Blackbird Leys, where the successes were a little bit bigger and better rooted and the consequent decline seems to have been slower and more prolonged.

Some small scale very localised successes, which never spread significantly and couldn't then be maintained locally. That's the actual record of "the IWCA's approach", isn't it? So why are you peddling this self-aggrandising nonsense about the stunning successes of the IWCA? The IWCA has died out pretty much everywhere it has been attempted. There's less of it remaining than when you were starting out. What exactly are the rest of us supposed to be awed by here? The thing is that if you lot were actually capable of making a detailed assessment of what has worked and what hasn't worked in your 17 year experiment, there could be things that you and all the rest of us could actually learn. But instead you give us this parallel universe where the IWCA has been an unquestionable success and is still somehow storming ahead, leaving all those outdated irrelevant leftists in your wake.


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## Blagsta (Mar 19, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> I mostly agree with that, but if we can get away from the "my dad's bigger than your dad" stuff for a second, can anyone explain why "everywhere the IWCA approach has been put into practice" in reality amounts to a few estates in a relatively small geographical area? Why didn't it catch on?
> 
> I know I keep banging on about this but it's a pretty important question, more so now than ever.



I'm guessing cos its hard work. I'd love to get involved in community organising, then I think about the work and commitment that would be involved and realise that I realistically couldn't do it.


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## SpineyNorman (Mar 19, 2012)

Blagsta said:


> I'm guessing cos its hard work. I'd love to get involved in community organising, then I think about the work and commitment that would be involved and realise that I realistically couldn't do it.


 
Yeah but you could say that about pretty much any serious political work. If that's really the answer (and I don't think it is tbh, the history of tenants associations, neighbourhood watch schemes, etc. testifies to this) we might as well all give up now.


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## Blagsta (Mar 19, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> Yeah but you could say that about pretty much any serious political work. If that's really the answer (and I don't think it is tbh, the history of tenants associations, neighbourhood watch schemes, etc. testifies to this) we might as well all give up now.


I dunno, that's just my personal reason for not getting involved as much politically as I'd like, I don't think I'm the only person it applies to.


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## Smokeandsteam (Mar 19, 2012)

[quote="Nigel Irritable, post: 11012053, member: [/quote]

Others can correct me if I am wrong but there are now 2 questions NI refuse to answer:

1. How is the campaign for a new workers party coming on? When will it be ready to go?
2. The reason why the SP has failed to review btf - I.e. because to do so would directly challenge history as written by the leadership of the SP.

Instead we get the same questions again and again, which have been answered time and again.


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## SpineyNorman (Mar 19, 2012)

Blagsta said:


> I dunno, that's just my personal reason for not getting involved as much politically as I'd like, I don't think I'm the only person it applies to.


 
But you could say that about pretty much any approach, not just the IWCA one. Main reason I'm interested is cos I'm involved in setting up a community union at the moment so if I can get an answer it might prove genuinely useful.


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## SpineyNorman (Mar 19, 2012)

Smokeandsteam said:


> [quote="Nigel Irritable, post: 11012053, member:
> 
> Others can correct me if I am wrong but there are now 2 questions NI refuse to answer:
> 
> ...


 
If that's the case then you might as well ignore him.

I'll answer though: 1) The campaign for a new workers party is in about the same position as when it first began, though the RMT's willingness to stand candidates under the TUSC banner is encouraging.

2) In all honesty I think the main reason they didn't review it that it's not in their interests to do so. Partly for the reasons NI stated and probably in part because it contradicts what's in party literature, as you say.

Now can we stop this daft shite? The question I'm asking really hasn't been answered, Joe Reilly came closest to answering it but unfortunately the thread got derailed and the exchange ended.

So do you have any idea why the IWCA model didn't spread? One that isn't based on the wider left not taking it up? (And there's a good reason why the answer shouldn't rely on this - if that's the case, and it may be, they're not going to take it up in future either so we need an answer that doesn't rely on them. I mean, the SP could blame the Labour Party and the affiliated unions for the new workers party not taking off. It would be a shit, unsatisfactory answer though, since if we really want a new workers party we're going to have to deal with those obstacles. Same goes for the IWCA).


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## Nigel Irritable (Mar 19, 2012)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Others can correct me if I am wrong but there are now 2 questions NI refuse to answer:
> 
> 1. How is the campaign for a new workers party coming on? When will it be ready to go?
> 2. The reason why the SP has failed to review btf - I.e. because to do so would directly challenge history as written by the leadership of the SP.
> ...


 
Firstly, it's worth noting that this is the absolutely typical method of the RA/IWCA supporters and cheerleaders here. At all costs they must avoid discussing the actual record, the successes and failures of the IWCA. Instead, each and every conversation which approaches those issues in a remotely critical way is immediately diverted to their preferred topic, ie sneering at other parts of the left. It is a constant feature of this exchange and of every exchange they have on this board.

Secondly, I've already answered one of the two questions Smokeandsteam mentions in some considerable detail. Left organisations almost never review publications put out by much smaller rivals, on any subject, at any time. Still less do they review publications put out by deceased smaller rival groups. A book by Red Action, on any subject, has as much chance of getting a review by the Socialist Party, SWP, CPB, etc as a book by Workers Power or the CPGB has, which is to say no chance at all. Bigger groups generally don't give a toss about what smaller groups say or they pretend not to give a toss. I've also pointed out repeatedly that I don't think that this is a good thing.

Thirdly, I haven't answered the question about the Campaign for a New Workers Party because I'm not in England. For what it's worth I suspect that a new mass organisation of any kind is a very considerable distance away at the moment, and that's as true for a new formation inspired by IWCA ideas as it is for one inspired by the Socialist Party's view. Here in Ireland, the massive recession and austerity has allowed the socialist left to make a bit more of an impact, so, for instance, I live in a city with a Socialist Party MEP, two Socialist Party TDs (MPs) and four councillors, but that impact is still on a very small scale in the greater scheme of things and I don't think we're on the verge of a new party here either.

Fourthly, the claim that I'm asking questions that "have been answered over and over again" is a straightforward lie unless by "answered over and over again" Smokeandsteam means "avoided with exactly the same diversionary tactic of talking about other left groups rather the record of the IWCA over and over again".


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## Deareg (Mar 19, 2012)

Nigel Irritable said:


> No, but claiming that their early 90s street fights against the BNP and NF were the single most important historical achievement of the British left certainly does make you a cheer leader (or an ex member with a skewed view of the world).


It was important enough for you and your mates to lie about your role in it.


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## SpineyNorman (Mar 19, 2012)

For fuck's sake. I give up.


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## Nigel Irritable (Mar 19, 2012)

Deareg said:


> It was important enough for you and your mates to lie about your role in it.


 
When have I "lied" about street fights that took place in a different country while I was a kid? Your imagination is getting the better of you.

I'm still waiting for an IWCA supporter to actually talk about the record of the IWCA by the way. I wonder how many more rounds of "well the rest of the left are all shit and irrelevant and outdated and and and" we'll go through before one of them actually does so.


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## Deareg (Mar 19, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> For fuck's sake. I give up.


If you don't like it don't read the posts, in the meantime, go and fuck yourself.


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## Deareg (Mar 19, 2012)

Nigel Irritable said:


> When have I "lied" about street fights that took place in a different country while I was a kid? Your imagination is getting the better of you.
> 
> I'm still waiting for an IWCA supporter to actually talk about the record of the IWCA by the way. I wonder how many more rounds of "well the rest of the left are all shit and irrelevant and outdated and and and" we'll go through before one of them actually does so.


So now you admit you know fuck all about what happened, but still feel qualified to sneer about it.


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## Nigel Irritable (Mar 19, 2012)

Deareg said:


> So now you admit you know fuck all about what happened, but still feel qualified to sneer about it.


 
What are you talking about now?

When did I "sneer" at AFA's record in physical force anti-fascism outside of your imagination? Or does failing to agree with your mental claim that beating up the NF and BNP in the early 90s was the biggest ever achievement of the British left now constitute sneering at AFA?


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## love detective (Mar 19, 2012)

Nigel Irritable said:
			
		

> early 90s street fights


 



			
				Nigel Irritable said:
			
		

> When have I "lied" about street fights


 
nice sneeringly revisionist reduction of what was a comprehensive and thoroughly political and professionalised militant anti-fascism to 'street fights' Nigel

Funny how you're confident enough to talk so dismisively of that period on one hand, yet when pushed on it you clam up and claim you know nothing about it, no my country like, was only a kid then you know...


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## Nigel Irritable (Mar 19, 2012)

love detective said:


> nice sneeringly revisionist reduction of what was a comprehensive and thoroughly political and professionalised militant anti-fascism to 'street fights' Nigel


 
It's not meant to be sneering or revisionist at all. Nor is it dismissive.

Except in the sense that to the kind of mentalist who think that AFA's work in the 90s constituted the greatest ever achievements of the British left, pretty much anything short of insanity will sound dismissive. My actual view is that it's an interesting bit of social history and in hampering the ability of the BNP and NF to operate their strategy of street thuggery, AFA did everyone a service. It's also twenty years ago, and not really of that much direct contemporary relevance.


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## audiotech (Mar 19, 2012)

...


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## love detective (Mar 19, 2012)

so you stand by your claim that everything that happened then can accurately (and politically) be reduced to the description you used, of street fights then?


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## Nigel Irritable (Mar 19, 2012)

love detective said:


> so you stand by your claim that everything that happened then can accurately (and politically) be reduced to the description you used, of street fights then?


 
Where did I make that claim?

See my slightly edited post above for my actual assessment.


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## Smokeandsteam (Mar 19, 2012)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Firstly, it's worth noting that this is the absolutely typical method of the RA/IWCA supporters and cheerleaders here. At all costs they must avoid discussing the actual record, the successes and failures of the IWCA. Instead, each and every conversation which approaches those issues in a remotely critical way is immediately diverted to their preferred topic, ie sneering at other parts of the left. It is a constant feature of this exchange
> 
> 
> ".



Sneering? Your the one who dismissed the myriad work going on in Oxford as a 'running club' you fucking helmet. You are the one who has wriitten off a track record that pound for pound demonstrates a resonance that the rest of the left can only dream of. And you are the one who has dismissed the work of anti-fascists that fought the far right to a standstill as 'street fighting' ignoring the personal sacrifices made. You are a clown.


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## love detective (Mar 19, 2012)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Where did I make that claim?


 
that's pretty much the description you've used to (sneeringly) refer to AFA's activities in your last few posts - one which appears to me to seek to empty out the political content of those activities (exactly the same approach as you used re the running club comment)

also re your comment about it being nearly twenty years ago - what did you expect from what was predominantly a history book - a history of the future?

amusing to see trots make a claim that something is irrelevant or not worth bothering about because it happened in the past


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## SpineyNorman (Mar 19, 2012)

Deareg said:


> If you don't like it don't read the posts, in the meantime, go and fuck yourself.


 
Yes, it would be a great shame if the sectarian bunfight was interrupted by people inconveniently trying to discuss politics


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## Deareg (Mar 19, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> Yes, it would be a great shame if the sectarian bunfight was interrupted by people inconveniently trying to discuss politics


This is urban, Are you new here or just been sleeping?


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## audiotech (Mar 19, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> A scrapbook sent to me, by a kind U75 member, with hundreds of anti-fascist clippings is finally ready to upload. Its 167 page pdf and the quality isn't 100%. Printing the bastard off would probably be the best option for those really interested.
> 
> Here it is: http://antifascistarchive.com/2012/03/19/the-scrapbook/


 
Well done.


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## Nigel Irritable (Mar 19, 2012)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Sneering? Your the one who dismissed the myriad work going on in Oxford as a 'running club' you fucking helmet. You are the one who has wriitten off a track record that pound for pound demonstrates a resonance that the rest of the left can only dream of. And you are the one who has dismissed the work of anti-fascists that fought the far right to a standstill as 'street fighting' ignoring the personal sacrifices made. You are a clown.


 
As charming as ever. Did I hurt your feelings by not demonstrating the requisite respect, a respect which, mind you, IWCA supporters absolutely never grant anyone else on the left? The hypocrisy is absolutely staggering. You are entirely dismissive about every other left group, but you immediately throw your bottle out of the pram if your own organisations are treated with anything other than reverence.

And I note that we're back to empty boasting about your record again, although at least now you've dropped the silly claims down to a "pound for pound" "resonance". You know what, when you consider that your weight class consists of Workers Power, I might even partially go along with that. Not that it gets us very far.

Why has every IWCA branch other than the one in Oxford apparently disappeared? Why has the IWCA failed to spread elsewhere? Why has it, with one partial exception in Blackbird Leys, failed to sustain itself? What conclusions have you drawn from this? What do you plan to do about it?

These aren't nasty, cynical, unreasonable questions aimed at undermining the IWCA. These are the kind of bleeding fucking obvious questions anyone who is serious about your politics and your methods should be asking. But not only are you not capable of answering them, you regard even asking as an unpardonable affront. And you consistently prefer to talk about how irrelevant and failed and useless everyone else is, with all the arrogance of a group which had gone from success to success rather than slowly falling apart yourselves. If the rest of the left are so fucking irrelevant, then stop fucking pissing and moaning about them and talk about your own organisation - and in particular talk about its success and failures and how you realistically plan to build on those successes and address those failures.


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## SpineyNorman (Mar 19, 2012)

Deareg said:


> This is urban, Are you new here or just been sleeping?


 
Compared to other sites on the web I don't think it's generally that much of a problem on here, it certainly doesn't normally prevent reasonable discussion. But I've been trying to get answers to a couple of questions about the IWCA for a while now, and even when IWCA posters were engaging and trying to provide those answers it got derailed by precisely this kind of shite before we really got anywhere. It's very frustrating, particularly as I'm involved in an initiative that, although not the same as the IWCA, has enough similarities for answers to those questions to be potentially very useful.

Maybe if I called the IWCA or AFA cunts I'd get a better response?


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## Deareg (Mar 19, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> Compared to other sites on the web I don't think it's generally that much of a problem on here, it certainly doesn't normally prevent reasonable discussion. But I've been trying to get answers to a couple of questions about the IWCA for a while now, and even when IWCA posters were engaging and trying to provide those answers it got derailed by precisely this kind of shite before we really got anywhere. It's very frustrating, particularly as I'm involved in an initiative that, although not the same as the IWCA, has enough similarities for answers to those questions to be potentially very useful.
> 
> Maybe if I called the IWCA or AFA cunts I'd get a better response?


Start a thread, but don't be surprised if it gets derailed.


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## JHE (Mar 19, 2012)

I'm loath to stick up for Nigel Irritable, who is sometimes a very abusive lad, but I think he does have a point here about IWCAers' unwillingness to discuss the successes and failures of their project.

It's not difficult to understand why, I suppose.  If you have really thought very carefully about your political analysis and project and have invested great hope in it and have really worked very hard on it for a long period of time, it is then bloody difficult to be objective about those ideas and that project.

This is true of Trottery, a perennially failing political project, and seems to be true of the IWCA too.


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## Nigel Irritable (Mar 19, 2012)

love detective said:


> that's pretty much the description you've used to (sneeringly) refer to AFA's activities in your last few posts - one which appears to me to seek to empty out the political content of those activities (exactly the same approach as you used re the running club comment)


 
I'm not "emptying out the political content" of AFA's campaign. It was obviously political. It was also obviously useful, not least to the ethnic minorities and leftists who might otherwise have been attacked by an unmolested far right. But I don't think that in the greater political scheme of things, AFA's early 90s war against the BNP or NF was all that important, and more importantly it doesn't tell us very much of direct use today because the major forces of the far right are very different and things like CCTV render much of AFA's approach counterproductive today. It's even less relevant to someone in the South of Ireland, where we have about four fascists anyway. I am _much_ more interested in the IWCA, which is actually supposed to be an attempt to address today's changed political conditions and to address them on more than a single issue.

The problem is that none of the IWCA's fans and supporters seem all that interested in it, except in so far as it provides a handy vantage point for pissing and moaning about the rest of the left.


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## SpineyNorman (Mar 19, 2012)

Deareg said:


> Start a thread, but don't be surprised if it gets derailed.


 
I think I will but I'll leave it till tomorrow, given the obvious danger of an epic sectarian derail I think I need to be careful how I phrase it and I have neither the time nor the patience to do it right now.


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## Deareg (Mar 19, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> I think I will but I'll leave it till tomorrow, given the obvious danger of an epic sectarian derail I think I need to be careful how I phrase it and I have neither the time nor the patience to do it right now.


I doubt that it will be in any more danger of derail than any other thread on here.


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## love detective (Mar 19, 2012)

Nigel Irritable said:


> I'm not "emptying out the political content" of AFA's campaign. It was obviously political.


 
so why characterise it as 'street fights'?

is the commonly accepted understanding of street fights one which has 'obvious' political content?

(start a thread about the IWCA and ask your questions on it - this is a thread about a book about the history of anti fascist action - apologies also for the fact that history is in the past and therefore not relevant to a trot...)


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## audiotech (Mar 19, 2012)

love detective said:


> (....- apologies also for the fact that history is in the past and therefore not relevant to a trot...)


 
It's never ending.


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## Nigel Irritable (Mar 19, 2012)

love detective said:


> so why characterise it as 'street fights'?


 
Because that's the prominent element and visible part of the strategy and it's a useful shorthand rather than writing out a list of every single thing the approach consisted of, including groundwork, organisation, etc.


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## love detective (Mar 19, 2012)

In the same way that trotskyite politics could accurately and fairly be described as 'selling papers' as that is a prominent element and visible part of the strategy?

Admit it, you used the term 'street fights' to belittle and de-politicise the history


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## Nigel Irritable (Mar 19, 2012)

love detective said:


> In the same way that trotskyite politics could accurately and fairly be described as 'selling papers' as that is a prominent element and visible part of the strategy


 
I don't whine and yap about it, and get my feelings all hurt, when someone starts talking about "selling papers".


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## past caring (Mar 20, 2012)

JHE said:


> I'm loath to stick up for Nigel Irritable, who is sometimes a very abusive lad, but I think he does have a point here about IWCAers' unwillingness to discuss the successes and failures of their project.
> 
> It's not difficult to understand why, I suppose. If you have really thought very carefully about your political analysis and project and have invested great hope in it and have really worked very hard on it for a long period of time, it is then bloody difficult to be objective about those ideas and that project.
> 
> This is true of Trottery, a perennially failing political project, and seems to be true of the IWCA too.


 
By their friends shall ye know them.


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## love detective (Mar 20, 2012)

Nigel Irritable said:


> I don't whine and yap about it, and get my feelings all hurt, when someone starts talking about "selling papers".


 
I didn't ask whether you, personally, manage not to whine and yap about it if your politics were summarised in such a way

I asked whether such a summary was objectively a fair & accurate description of them


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## Joe Reilly (Mar 20, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> It's very frustrating, particularly as I'm involved in an initiative that, although not the same as the IWCA, has enough similarities for answers to those questions to be potentially very useful.


 
What do you percieve the differences to be?


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## Joe Reilly (Mar 20, 2012)

Nigel Irritable said:


> I'm not "emptying out the political content" of AFA's campaign. It was obviously political. It was also obviously useful, not least to the ethnic minorities and leftists who might otherwise have been attacked by an unmolested far right. But I don't think that in the greater political scheme of things, AFA's early 90s war against the BNP or NF was all that important, and more importantly it doesn't tell us very much of direct use today because the major forces of the far right are very different and things like CCTV render much of AFA's approach counterproductive today. It's even less relevant to someone in the South of Ireland, where we have about four fascists anyway. I am _much_ more interested in the IWCA, which is actually supposed to be an attempt to address today's changed political conditions and to address them on more than a single issue.
> 
> The problem is that none of the IWCA's fans and supporters seem all that interested in it, except in so far as it provides a handy vantage point for pissing and moaning about the rest of the left.


 
To begin with this might be judged the 'damned with faint praise' type of post of a typical dilletante.

However, there are I think within it, some remarkably egregious (and as importantly representative) morsels to savour.

In no particular order.

1. The AFA campaign was not that important anyway.

2. The forces of the far-right are very different today.

3. Anti-fascism across Europe is not personally relevant because he cannot see fascists from his front door.

4. Nothing can be learnt from the AFA campaign because of the advent of CCTV.

5. Anti-fascism is a single issue.

6. The IWCA cannot comment on the state of the left

1. At the height of the campaign against the BNP it took 7,000 votes in the general election. In the last Euro elections it took the best part of a million votes off - and this is generally ignored - a 30per cent turnout. Which demonstrates an electoral base of roughly 2.5 million. Somewhere in between the two figures is the AFA dividend.

2. It is of course the _strategy_ of the far-right that is very different today. The fascists are still the same fascists.

3. See... _Pastor Niemoller_

4. It is the fascists not AFA that abandoned the battle for control of the streets -and no one on the far-right has picked up that particular baton. Moreover AFA confronted on the streets because that is where _they were_ then. There are now on the estates instead and the fight is 100 per cent political. The notion that CCTV negates any of that is risible.

5. To repeat: 'the rise of the far right across Europe is not the cause for the failure of the Left it is a consequence of that failure'.

This is of course either ignored or denied. Yet in a public post mortem meeting following the last Euro elections organisers from the SP repeatedly boasted of getting '10 per cent of the BNP vote'.

So much then for 'the single issue'.

As regards the IWCA all you get is the usual ad hominem arguments. In the sense that because the IWCA project isn't bigger than the entire Left then there is some kind of moral hazard in allowing sympathisers to offer any sort of critique.


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## SpineyNorman (Mar 20, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> What do you percieve the differences to be?


 
We're part of, and being supported by, a trade union and so on the negative side we don't have the same degree of autonomy but on the positive side we do have better links with other similar branches across the country and, until we start making too much trouble for them, we'll have more financial and practical support.


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## Red Storm (Mar 20, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> We're part of, and being supported by, a trade union and so on the negative side we don't have the same degree of autonomy but on the positive side we do have better links with other similar branches across the country and, until we start making too much trouble for them, we'll have more financial and practical support.


 
Who's we sorry? TUSC? I can't find your post saying it.


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## SpineyNorman (Mar 20, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> Who's we sorry? TUSC? I can't find your post saying it.


 
No, I'm involved in setting up a branch in the community section of Unite. I don't have any illusions in Unite as an organisation, but we can use their support to forge links and build groups - so if they do decide we're becoming an embarassment or whatever it may be necessary to sever links with the union. They don't seem to appreciate what they've unleashed yet so they're leaving it to us and just giving us whatever support we ask for. I don't expect that to last forever though.


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## articul8 (Mar 20, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> Somewhere in between the two figures is the AFA dividend.


Explain..?


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## Joe Reilly (Mar 20, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> No, I'm involved in setting up a branch in the community section of Unite. I don't have any illusions in Unite as an organisation, but we can use their support to forge links and build groups - so if they do decide we're becoming an embarassment or whatever it may be necessary to sever links with the union. They don't seem to appreciate what they've unleashed yet so they're leaving it to us and just giving us whatever support we ask for. I don't expect that to last forever though.


 
What is the formal purpose of the community section of Unite?


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## SpineyNorman (Mar 21, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> What is the formal purpose of the community section of Unite?


 
In all honesty I've been trying to fathom that myself. According to them it's about empowering people without access to workplace unions in their communities and demonstrating the power of collective action. The intention is to, if possible, eventually have a branch in every estate in the city, and I assume every other city/town too, but we're nowhere near that stage yet. But we're basically being left to do what we want with it and the more active people among us are wanting to take it in a broadly IWCA-like direction (without the part about standing people in council elections obviously). As I said, I suspect that at some point the leadership will realise what they've unleashed and try and reign us in. I'm hoping that by that time we'll have demonstrated to other members the utility of our approach and if we are forced to leave others will leave with us to form an independent organisation.


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## Joe Reilly (Mar 21, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> In all honesty I've been trying to fathom that myself. According to them it's about empowering people without access to workplace unions in their communities and demonstrating the power of collective action. The intention is to, if possible, eventually have a branch in every estate in the city, and I assume every other city/town too, but we're nowhere near that stage yet. But we're basically being left to do what we want with it and the more active people among us are wanting to take it in a broadly IWCA-like direction (without the part about standing people in council elections obviously). As I said, I suspect that at some point the leadership will realise what they've unleashed and try and reign us in. I'm hoping that by that time we'll have demonstrated to other members the utility of our approach and if we are forced to leave others will leave with us to form an independent organisation.


 
I suspect they will have little problem with any work you put in - indeed the harder you work, the more they'll like it - as they will look forward to shamelessly claiming credit for it.


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## SpineyNorman (Mar 21, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> I suspect they will have little problem with any work you put in - indeed the harder you work, the more they'll like it - as they will look forward to shamelessly claiming credit for it.


 
I don't really care who takes credit for it so long as we get it done.


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## Joe Reilly (Mar 22, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> I don't really care who takes credit for it so long as we get it done.


 
That, if I may so, is extremely naive. What in effect you'll be doing is buttressing the people responsible for the mess in the first place. Re-inforcing the status quo. Providing handly little photo ops for both time-servers and careerists. If that's what gets you up in the morning, so to speak, that's your business. And though it hardly needs stating, it is the very opposite to the IWCA strategy.


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## Joe Reilly (Mar 22, 2012)

articul8 said:


> Explain..?


 
Expand.


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## frogwoman (Mar 22, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> That, if I may so, is extremely naive. What in effect you'll be doing is buttressing the people responsible for the mess in the first place. Re-inforcing the status quo. Providing handly little photo ops for both time-servers and careerists. If that's what gets you up in the morning, so to speak, that's your business. And though it hardly needs stating, it is the very opposite to the IWCA strategy.


 
But on the IWCA's website it says:

http://www.iwca.info/?page_id=1410

The drawing together of all sectors, including official agencies, toward the goal of the working class ownership of local communities
What's to stop those "offical agencies" taking credit for your work any more than unite (or whatever) officials would?


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## Fozzie Bear (Mar 22, 2012)

The "independent" in IWCA (and indeed "Hackney Independent") is key.

My recollection is that mainstream political parties did try and take credit for IWCA work in Oxford. Which the IWCA were able to rebuff in their usual robust manner, precisely because they were independent.


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## SpineyNorman (Mar 22, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> That, if I may so, is extremely naive. What in effect you'll be doing is buttressing the people responsible for the mess in the first place. Re-inforcing the status quo. Providing handly little photo ops for both time-servers and careerists. If that's what gets you up in the morning, so to speak, that's your business. And though it hardly needs stating, it is the very opposite to the IWCA strategy.



That argument could equally be used against joining a workplace union though couldn't it? And I did say there were differences - but the similarities lie in the type of work we'll be doing. And since our work will put us in direct conflict with the labour council I'm not sure unite will always be so quick to claim it as their own.


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## articul8 (Mar 22, 2012)

> expand.


that too?

how do you deduce an AFA dividend from the subsequent growth in BNP electoral support?


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## Joe Reilly (Mar 22, 2012)

articul8 said:


> that too?
> 
> how do you deduce an AFA dividend from the subsequent growth in BNP electoral support?


 
It is true that the 'subsequent growth' came after they were forced to abandon the streets. The dividend was in the fact that they were unable to electorally capitalise earlier. For example after losing to AFA in a town centre confrontation in Burnley the BNP took a total of 9 votes in a subsequent by-election.

Those of a liberal bent would have assumed that the laugable return, was proof that Burnley was a haven of tolerance. Yet in 2002 the BNP took 10,000 votes there. 

Obviously the BNP support did not rise a thousand fold in the interim. So to a large extent what is referred to in BTF as the 'reservoir of reaction' was give or take an ever present. What AFA determind to do was to prevent the far-right tapping into it.

It was only as a result of their abandonment of their strategy that they were able to lift the AFA boot of their neck and flourish.

Around the same time AFA was applying it's strategy in this country, the French by conrast were relying on the likes of _SOS Racisme _in theirs. 


As a consequence the French Far-right were allowed a free run for over 30 years.

Just this week Channel 4 reported this week that in some opinion polls support for the Fn was running at '23 to 24 per cent'.


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## Joe Reilly (Mar 22, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> That argument could equally be used against joining a workplace union though couldn't it? And I did say there were differences - but the similarities lie in the type of work we'll be doing. And since our work will put us in direct conflict with the labour council I'm not sure unite will always be so quick to claim it as their own.


 
I should have made myself clearer - it is of course Labour Cllrs that will quickly claim any success/impact you have as their own.


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## ayatollah (Mar 22, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> In all honesty I've been trying to fathom that myself. According to them it's about empowering people without access to workplace unions in their communities and demonstrating the power of collective action. The intention is to, if possible, eventually have a branch in every estate in the city, and I assume every other city/town too, but we're nowhere near that stage yet. But we're basically being left to do what we want with it and the more active people among us are wanting to take it in a broadly IWCA-like direction (without the part about standing people in council elections obviously). As I said, I suspect that at some point the leadership will realise what they've unleashed and try and reign us in. I'm hoping that by that time we'll have demonstrated to other members the utility of our approach and if we are forced to leave others will leave with us to form an independent organisation.


 
Seems like an excellent initiative to get involved in SpineyNorman - grass roots political work in working class communities, with direct connection to a mass membership trades union, and therefore the wider labour movement. Ok, you stir up "trouble" for the union bigwigs or local (Labour) Council ,and you eventually get chucked out... but so what .. in the meantime I can't see all the downsides that Joe and others do I must say. As Frogwoman has said on an earlier post - it sounds quite IWCA ish to me -- but NOT disconnected from the labour movement. Surely we need as much locally-based radical mobilisation and resistance activities across the UK as we can get - without getting too bogged down in fears about " TU bureaucrats or Labour councillors" getting credit -- in fact as SpineyNorman says - any effective action will send em scurrying for cover.


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## articul8 (Mar 22, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> It was only as a result of their abandonment of their strategy that they were able to lift the AFA boot of their neck and flourish.


So your success was in driving fascism into more effective tactics?


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## SpineyNorman (Mar 22, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> I should have made myself clearer - it is of course Labour Cllrs that will quickly claim any success/impact you have as their own.


 
I think that is very, very unlikely. They're the people we'll be campaigning against and trying to expose.


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## SpineyNorman (Mar 22, 2012)

articul8 said:


> So your success was in driving fascism into more effective tactics?


 
That's a bit out of order tbh. Whatever disagreements we might have now, I've got massive respect for the work people like Joe did in AFA and to an extent they were the reason why the old march and grow stuff was inefective. They also stopped a lot of people, particularly middle class people, from joining the far right because they didn't have the stomach for physical confrontation.


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## ayatollah (Mar 22, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> That's a bit out of order tbh. Whatever disagreements we might have now, I've got massive respect for the work people like Joe did in AFA and to an extent they were the reason why the old march and grow stuff was inefective. They also stopped a lot of people, particularly middle class people, from joining the far right because they didn't have the stomach for physical confrontation.


 
I'd like to second that, SpineyNorman.


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## frogwoman (Mar 22, 2012)

yep not the world's biggest fan of the current IWCA's politics but AFA etc did have real success in keeping the fash off the streets. I don't have much time for people that say that physical force anti-fascism can never be a valid tactic.

And it did bring results. It stopped the fash from organising effectlvely and whatever you think of their politics now you can't deny that.


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## Red Storm (Mar 22, 2012)

Joe has made the point to me before that the fascists would have eventually turned to electoral politics. Except without AFA's efforts they would have had a street army when they did.


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## Red Storm (Mar 23, 2012)

On another note I got hold of "Making of Red Action" and "We are Red Action" pamphlets today


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## The Prestonian (Mar 23, 2012)

articul8 said:


> So your success was in driving fascism into more effective tactics?


Thats bullshit mate and you know it. Yeah, its shit that the BNP poll votes in the hundreds of thousands, but I'd prefer that to letting them have a free run on the streets. The truth is in certain areas of the country the BNP have still never recovered there street presence. I fail to see them crawling out of the woodwork once every four years as the fleeting focal point of thousands of dissillusioned peoples is an ''effective tactic''.


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## articul8 (Mar 23, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> Joe has made the point to me before that the fascists would have eventually turned to electoral politics. Except without AFA's efforts they would have had a street army when they did.


 
Good comeback.  Welcome Prestonian by the way - from an exiled Prestonian.


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## frogwoman (Mar 23, 2012)

The Prestonian said:


> Thats bullshit mate and you know it. Yeah, its shit that the BNP poll votes in the hundreds of thousands, but I'd prefer that to letting them have a free run on the streets. The truth is in certain areas of the country the BNP have still never recovered there street presence. I fail to see them crawling out of the woodwork once every four years as the fleeting focal point of thousands of dissillusioned peoples is an ''effective tactic''.


 
Labour's strategy against our goose-stepping chums was completely effective, obviously.


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## articul8 (Mar 23, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> Labour's strategy against our goose-stepping chums was completely effective, obviously.


To be honest, I think we owe more to those under Uncle Joe than Joe Reilly if we're looking at it in historical perspective (at least after the fucking stupid Hitler-Stalin pact) -


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## SpineyNorman (Mar 23, 2012)

articul8 said:


> To be honest, I think we owe more to those under Uncle Joe than Joe Reilly if we're looking at it in historical perspective (at least after the fucking stupid Hitler-Stalin pact) -



I don't think anyone was suggesting that red action/afa were a more formidable force than the red army - nobody claimed that they stopped Hitler or anything like that. Just that they were important in putting a brake on fascist growth in the 80s and 90s. That's just a really odd comment.


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## articul8 (Mar 23, 2012)

repelling fascism is crucially important work.  But it doesn't follow that it's the sole measure of political worth.  The USSR made a massive contribution to defeating fascism in the 40s yet...


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## romeo2001 (Mar 23, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> It is true that the 'subsequent growth' came after they were forced to abandon the streets. The dividend was in the fact that they were unable to electorally capitalise earlier. For example after losing to AFA in a town centre confrontation in Burnley the BNP took a total of 9 votes in a subsequent by-election.
> 
> Those of a liberal bent would have assumed that the laugable return, was proof that Burnley was a haven of tolerance. Yet in 2002 the BNP took 10,000 votes there.
> 
> ...


 
I think the importance of showing that the far right can not only be challenged on their own terms but also comprehesively beaten is something that is often forgotten today.  People are attracted to strenght and success - if you see the nazi who you thought had all the answers battered ona regular basis it tends to put people off joining up and not just because it might happen to them as well.    At the end of the day the representation of among working class people of the right is one of strength (thru bullying admittedly but when has that stopped anyone getting support) Sadly most people I grew up with have had no contact with the left bar oddball geography teacher types.


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## Joe Reilly (Mar 23, 2012)

articul8 said:


> So your success was in driving fascism into more effective tactics?


 
Yep, we showed them the error of their ways. Mind you it took 20 years for the penny to drop.  But enough of the simpelton's view. In reality the BNP were perfectly prepared to combine a street presence with electoral work. Organisationally, that indeed would have been the optimum strategy. And as we all know there was evidence of a public appetite for fascism red in tooth and claw. The Isle of Dogs is one example. But they missed out on a second cllr by a whisker, about 30 votes shy I think, in canning town.

The factor in common?

They were allowed to go about their business unmolested. As BTF explains the Isle of Dogs was considered difficult ground for Afa's 'traditional' approach. Canning Town we didn't even know about.

So, if they hadn't spent the first twenty years with security occupying 95 per cent of their time who knows where they'd be now?

Well, much of mainland Europe, where the far-right have generally been allowed to go about their business unmolested for decades, though not an exact replica or course, must nonetheless be considered to be something of a guide.


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## audiotech (Mar 23, 2012)

Some credit is due to those of us working class militants about in the 70's, involved in ANL mk1 too of course, on the streets dealing with the likes of the NF and British Movement.


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## Riklet (Mar 24, 2012)

articul8 said:


> repelling fascism is crucially important work. But it doesn't follow that it's the sole measure of political worth. The USSR made a massive contribution to defeating fascism in the 40s yet...


 
What an utterly weird remark.  I don't think anyone has been claiming AFA or any other group came or have come close to "defeating fascism" on some sort of international level, all by themselves.

Quite flattering (although bizarre) that you see the need to compare them to the effectiveness of Soviet military and industrial power though


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## articul8 (Mar 24, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> as we all know there was evidence of a public appetite for fascism red in tooth and claw.


 
Do we really?  You've pointed to one victory and one near miss at ward level in a very narrow geographical area..  What's to say this wasn't just a local anomaly?


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## articul8 (Mar 24, 2012)

Riklet said:


> Quite flattering (although bizarre) that you see the need to compare them to the effectiveness of Soviet military and industrial power though


That wasn't what I was saying and you know it.  I was asking whether a capacity for effective anti-fascist work was the sole measure of a tendency's political contribution.


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## SpineyNorman (Mar 24, 2012)

articul8 said:


> repelling fascism is crucially important work. But it doesn't follow that it's the sole measure of political worth. The USSR made a massive contribution to defeating fascism in the 40s yet...


 
Yet what? We're talking purely about antifascism here. Of course it's not the sole measure of political worth. And since I'm not of the opinion that everything about the USSR was negative that one's even further off target than the last one. (Christ, I'm gonna end up arguing with _everyone_ now - I've pissed the labourite liberal off by defending militant antifascism and I've probably pissed the anti-Leninists off too now).


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## articul8 (Mar 24, 2012)

"labourite liberal" my arse - I'm not against physical confrontation with fascists where necessary.  I'm just probing some of the assumptions and plaudits that AFA is making for itself.  (Nor - fwiw - did I say that everything about the USSR was negative).


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## love detective (Mar 24, 2012)

articul8 said:


> I was asking whether a capacity for effective anti-fascist work was the sole measure of a tendency's political contribution.


 
Of course not - but you're just creating a strawman argument

Do the quotes below from BTF suggest an assumption that effective anti-fascist work is the sole measure of a tendency's political contribution?



> Thus the first step in trying to build any progressive working class movement was to remove the fascists from any areas, be it cultural (football or music) or geographical, where they might enjoy influence. As any form of co-existence was a non-starter, it was only with the space vacated the Left could attempt to ‘fill the vacuum’, militants would argue.


 


> AFA activists in east London had begun to report being increasingly asked, “Okay, so you’re against the BNP, but what are you for?” Invariably they were stuck for an immediate reply, since to be true to itself as a political negative, anti-fascism could hope to be nothing more than ‘against’.


 


> Therefore, when the fascists were violently removed from a music venue, a paper sale, or their marches were attacked, there was no pro-active strategy to fill the political vacuum that had been fashioned. For the militants ‘creating the space’ by driving out the fascists was reward in itself. Right up until 1994 militant anti-fascists genuinely believed that the political vacuum created by them would be somehow or other filled by the wider Left. As events show, they were mistaken.


 


> Leaving aside the reality that anti-fascism as a negative cannot be in the business of ‘creating’ anything,


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## articul8 (Mar 24, 2012)

I don't quite get the "stage-ism" involved in the above - first eviscerate the fascists and create a space that you can then think about filling...why isn't (positive) politics part and parcel of anti-fascism?

Why was 94 so decisive? (post the taking back of Beackon's seat...)?


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## ayatollah (Mar 24, 2012)

I can actually see the point that articul8 is making here. At first I though he was asking "Where was AFA at the Battle of Kursk then ?" But no, he isn't. He's simply saying anti fascist activity alone isn't a sufficient measure of the overall political maturity or validity of a group or movement. Which, although I fundamentally disagree about his "radical socialists should continue to work in the LP to AGAIN try to turn it to the Left" argument, is a bit of a "no brainer" for anyone surely. For instance, back in the 1970's the "cultural" offensive of ANL Mk I was integrated with an open and "less public" physical force anti fascism - AND the whole campaign seen as just a component of the wider labour movement and socialist struggle . AND at that time , the radical Left (and the branch level Labour Party) still had a significant working class base - although much reduced from the short-lived boom in working class membership of radical and reformist socialist organisations - eg, in 1974 the IS (VERY briefly) had 80 factory branches !

BTF argues (I think correctly) that the RA/AFA street campaign against the fascists "created the political space" for the LEFT to fill ... BUT then argues that the Left signally failed to fill this space, particularly in (white) working class communities. RA seems to have based this (undoubted) failure by the Left to build (anywhere actually) from the mid 1980's onwards on the fundamental "middleclassness" of the Left, its fundamental political barrenness, and overall the bankrupcy of Socialism as a philosophy and movement. Hence the avowedly non-socialist "radical working class localism" of the IWCA from the "Filling the Vacuum " strategy . I would argue that this analysis reflects only that RA/AFA's period of undoubted incredible anti fascist effort from the mid 1980's onwards - coincided with a period of unprecedented working class DEFEAT and demoralisation after the 1984 Miners Strike, and the social engineering inherent in the Thatcher/Reagan era of deregulated neo-Liberalism. So there was NO significant Left around to take advantage of the "political space" created by the undoubted good work done by RA/AFA to keep the fascists from dominating the streets. Blaming the Left for being "middle class tossers" as the reason for this absence of the Left generally , is to underestimate the defeat of the working class represented by Thatcherism, Blairist/Thatcherism - and the long debt fueled economic bubble which only burst in 2008, during which the working class generally saw no need for any alternative to buoyant capitalism. (but often remained hostile to growing multiculturalism - hence the remaining "political space" for the BNP's electoral "bigot politics" strategy )

The post 2008 Crash era is very different to the era RA/AFA operated in - and the potential to fight the capitalist offensive that only the LEFT and Socialism provides, means that the analysis of "Filling the Vacuum" needs to be significantly updated and revised - in a Socialist direction.


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## butchersapron (Mar 24, 2012)

I would suggest that it's not the obvious correctness of pointing out that physical force anti-fascism alone without an active political component is a non-runner today that's got up a few people's noses, but rather the fact that articul8 knows damn well that he's talking with people who were arguing exactly that well before filling the vacuum was even circulated and he knows this damn well as he's been talking to them on here for nearly a decade now.


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## articul8 (Mar 24, 2012)

I'm trying to understand the chronology for one thing - there seemed to be at least a defacto split between squaddists and politico's pretty much throughout the 80s - I wasn't old enough in this period to know whether this was a spurious argument from the SWP leadership, or whether it was something AFA et al identified with too.  And why 94 specifically?  Did the vacuum only arise then, or was it only then that it was noticed?

And I don't know how to evaluate the claim that activities like beating up a few hundred boneheads going to a Blood and Honour gig helped to prevent the emergence of a traditional fascist party on European lines.   As I said, I support physical confrontation with fascists where necessary but from my reading of the book it does seem like it threatened to become, or became for some, an end in itself and of no more intrinsic political worth than any other sort of hool/gang subcultural activity.


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## SpineyNorman (Mar 24, 2012)

articul8 said:


> "labourite liberal" my arse - I'm not against physical confrontation with fascists where necessary. I'm just probing some of the assumptions and plaudits that AFA is making for itself. (*Nor - fwiw - did I say that everything about the USSR was negative).*


 
I wasn't suggesting you did but I got the impression that you believed that was what I thought.


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## Joe Reilly (Mar 24, 2012)

articul8 said:


> As I said, I support physical confrontation with fascists where necessary but from my reading of the book it does seem like it threatened to become, or became for some, an end in itself and of no more intrinsic political worth than any other sort of hool/gang subcultural activity.


 
You never tire of repeating the bleedin obvious do you? The absence of political fidelity was made by the SWP CC against the squadists in 1981 and against RA and AFA every year since.

Not only that but near every BTF review made the same 'observation'.

Most of them would have reached that conclusion without necessarily reading the book of course.

 Ditto the comparing of militant anti-fascism with any other sort of hool/gang subcultural activity.

Which invites the obvious question - having neither been an anti-fascist nor a hooligan how could you possibly tell?

Or as a fellow bigot on over-hearing an anecdote regarding some recent AFA adventure or other, put it so memorably: 'And afterwards they probably go home and beat their wives'.

Finally a tip. Don't ever say you 'support the use of violence against fascism _when necessary'. _

I don't know what Freud would say about it, but in my experience it is the hallmark of someone who has no intention of ever doing so themselves - regardless of circumstances.


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## articul8 (Mar 24, 2012)

Hold on,


Joe Reilly said:


> You never tire of repeating the bleedin obvious do you? The absence of political fidelity was made by the SWP CC against the squadists in 1981 and against RA and AFA every year since.
> 
> Not only that but near every BTF review made the same 'observation'.


For the record, I didn't say it did tip fully over into apolitical violence, or at least not for those at the centre - but that it strikes me this was a danger inherent in this line of activity. 



> Ditto the comparing of militant anti-fascism with any other sort of hool/gang subcultural activity.
> Which invites the obvious question - having neither been an anti-fascist nor a hooligan how could you possibly tell?


 
this is symptomatic - you only count as "anti-fascist" if you've personally administered violence to them (irrespective of the fact that for all of my adult life they haven't been taking up street-fighting methods)?   Maybe its partly a generational thing.  (fwiw - I am an "anti-fascist", I'm not making some liberal attacks on physical confrontation with fash per se.  But not having been involved in street fights doesn't mean I'm anti anti-fascist.  No, I haven't been a football hooligan (I tend to prefer watching the games).  There is a whole genre of hool-lit though where people look back and think "wtf was all that about?  Still, miss the buzz, the adrenalin rush etc">



> Or as a fellow bigot on over-hearing an anecdote regarding some recent AFA adventure or other, put it so memorably: 'And afterwards they probably go home and beat their wives'.


Fellow bigot


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## ayatollah (Mar 24, 2012)

Joe Reilly quote:
"Finally a tip. Don't ever say you 'support the use of violence against fascism _when necessary'. _

I don't know what Freud would say about it, but in my experience it is the hallmark of someone who has no intention of ever doing so themselves - regardless of circumstances. "

Sadly, this is, in my  past experience anyway, all too true. That theoretical "moment of necessity" somehow just NEVER appeared for  most of the Left.. not when it was some other poor bugger being beaten up or firebombed that is. In the early and mid 70's when the  Far Left briefly DID have quite a respectable (in terms of a TINY Far Left) working class membership it was stunningly clear  in each and every "pavement situation"  or attacked public meeting, which socio-economic strata of the Left  was going to stand their ground, and which was going to decide that that "moment of necessity" hadn't arrived yet. On a broader canvas , TODAY, it is similarly true that it is only IF once again the present economic  crisis draws  considerable numbers of working class people into the Left, will it be any bloody use at all. It's a strange thing - gone into at length by George Orwell in a famous  article in the 30's, but Middle Class Lefties, have a MUCH higher proportion of cowardly tossers in their ranks than the middle class as a whole.  I don't know why that is, but it is an observable fact.


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## articul8 (Mar 24, 2012)

ayatollah said:


> In the early and mid 70's when the Far Left briefly DID have quite a respectable (in terms of a TINY Far Left) working class membership it was stunningly clear in each and every "pavement situation" or attacked public meeting, which socio-economic strata of the Left was going to stand their ground, and which was going to decide that that "moment of necessity" hadn't arrived yet.


 
Well I can't judge from 1st hand experience - though I can imagine it - but this kind of observation can tip over into implying that being less than gung-ho for a "pavement situation" on every single occasion was objective proof of someone being more petit-bourgeois


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## audiotech (Mar 24, 2012)

Joe is right in the above post #2345. One slime-ball in the British Movement one time, who was a coward to boot and had been photographed seig-heiling on a picket outside a left meeting, said to me one night sometime later, as our paths crossed in a pub; 'well we had our thugs as well as you lot' (the group he supported had smashed the windows of the local trades club and daubed it with swastika's). I told him in no uncertain terms that he was right on one point, that him and his ilk were the thugs. At this point, he was promptly requested to leave the pub. No violence was threatened. He mumbled something as he left about Marx saying that people could change. Err, not in your case mush came the reply. There was a strong suspicion that he was also a tout, as he had been seen passing info onto one well known grass, also a fascist.


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## ayatollah (Mar 24, 2012)

articul8 said:


> Well I can't judge from 1st hand experience - though I can imagine it - but this kind of observation can tip over into implying that being less than gung-ho for a "pavement situation" on every single occasion was objective proof of someone being more petit-bourgeois


But that's the strange thing.. the British army for instance is largely officered by middle class people - a quite aggressive activity I believe... lots of middle class people like playing Rugger .. also quite an aggressive activity. So one would imagine that middle class people deciding to engage in "revolutionery" politics.. would be generally quite "up for it" type of people. This certainly seemed to me to be the attitude of the working class component of the 1970's revolutionery Left. The majority of the middle class ones though - no ... really more interested in the ideas and lifestyle and possibly the bureaucracy of party organisation , than picket lines and general aggro. I suspect that in a period of major social upheaval all these generalisations would be much more in question.. as "ordinary" people entered into radical politics. But in the 1970's the caricature of the mouthy, obsessively sectarian ,but pretty gutless, middle class Leftie , was all too often, very accurate.


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## audiotech (Mar 24, 2012)

To be fair, I knew and still know a few middle class lefty's who weren't and aren't 'gutless'. Two in particular, who had their car fire-bombed outside their house.


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## ayatollah (Mar 24, 2012)

I'm a middle class Leftie myself .. so I'm obviously not suggesting everybody from that background is averse to fisticuffs when "necessary". The overwhelming majority were though, for sociological reasons of which I'm not entirely clear. "Too polite " ? "Too much invested in future career prospects" ? Not enough practice in the Grammar School playground ? Or maybe just that in a period of relative social stability the self-selcting middle class person interested in Left politics , particularly the often rather text-obsessed, follower of the "true belief" just isn't in general, a fighter ?

Its what they did next after having their car firebombed outside their house that determines whether they are Lefties "up for it" or Lefties as passive victims ,surely ?


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## audiotech (Mar 24, 2012)

What did you want them to do? They continued in far-left politics, others may have folded after such an incident. Politics isn't about having fisti-cuffs usually - even for John Prescott.


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## frogwoman (Mar 24, 2012)

i've got middle class people in my family who were jailed for years for politics stuff. one isnt really a leftie any more but doesn't really regret his actions. not sure its always a class thing!


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## ayatollah (Mar 24, 2012)

audiotech said:


> What did you want them to do? They continued in far-left politics, others may have folded after such an incident. Politics isn't about having fisti-cuffs usually - even for John Prescott.


 
I only know what would have been done to the fascists in Manchester in the 70's and 80's if such a thing had been done to  people on the Left. It would't have happened again. Which IS the point. Good for them though for carrying on. Without  appropriate action though they were lucky not to suffer worse later.  Of course the majority of Left activity doesn't involve fisticuffs. But we are discussing  on the BTF thread, and the relative responses of  middle class and working class Left activists to violence from the Far Right. But let me be clear, not all Middle class Lefties were lacking in bottle , and not all working class Lefties were  "up for it" when threatened - but overall it was the working class militants who took on and beat the fascist street offensives. A factor which obviously heavily coloured many working class militants' view of the Left , not for the better. The now very well known riposte by SWP Guru Alex Callinicos to a request to assist with a opposing a fascist papersale in London from members of what became RA.. ie " that is NOT my function in the Party" . is emblematic of this  issue - which will no doubt arise again when all sorts of activities which require an acceptance of  personal and career threatening risk are required from the Left in the turbulent years that lie ahead.


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## audiotech (Mar 25, 2012)

Well in Leeds things were done during the ANL mk1 days I can assure you.

I had to laugh once when a headline in the local rag reported sometime in the 90's, if memory serves, that a brutal attack on a left-wing papersale had taken place, horrifying people going about doing their shopping. Turned out that is was in fact the fascists who'd been turned over by AFA.

Callinicos is a wimp when it comes to fighting and he's not hesitant to admit it, nevertheless, that doesn't apply to all that are, or have been on the CC of the SWP. I would hazard a guess though that most probably have been and are though.


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## The39thStep (Mar 25, 2012)

There wasn't any offensive against the fash in Leeds after the firebomb attack despite the fact that it has been well documented that oddball Tony White was the one who stalked them and set the whole thing up.

CC members who would get stuck in - John Deason,  I saw Pat Stack charging at fash in a wheel chair .I even once saw Pete Alexander have a little go in Ealing when we moved the NF paper sale on. Holborow was the one who would issue instructions and then deny all knowledge. Strouthous spoke a good fight and then expelled those who carried out what was required.

Although he never reached the heights of CC Andy Zebrowski who later became a full timer could be very handy.


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## ayatollah (Mar 25, 2012)

I had a classic "Paul Holborough experience" - in about 1978 - big street battle in Leicester - with surprising amount of hand to hand with the cops as we tried to get at the NF. We smashed through one police line in classic IMG "link arms comrades" style.. bombed down a side road at head of a goodly mob. Round thre corner, and ANOTHER police line blocking the road. Holborough is there with a crowd. He waves us on -- as in "go, Go, Go !". We hit the police lines , they buckle, we fall into a melee with them .. Holborough and his crowd DON't join in , they stand back and APPLAUD us ! (I KID YOU NOT !). Lots of us get arrested . (80 in total that day - the fascists got bricked to hell).

Anyway a couple of weeks later I'm at an SWP meeting and I happen to meet Holborough by chance in the toilet in an interval... "That was a stupid, adventurist charge" he sniped ! In those days I was still enough of a hack NOT to stuff the bastard's head down the bog !


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## bignose1 (Mar 25, 2012)

audiotech said:


> What did you want them to do? They continued in far-left politics, others may have folded after such an incident. Politics isn't about having fisti-cuffs usually - even for John Prescott.


Carrying a bit of extra timber...mid 50's ..dodgy knees...work and home address known...on Redwatch...so when I go pointing a lens into their faces nowadays..rather than a boot..Im a cop out. Been levelled. Got a crew...well a little one...worried...yeah of course...but then I have earned their displeasure...so hey ho...just back from Madrid and a walk round the hills/fields of Jarama and a few days before stayed in Durango nr Bilbao which was bombed a month before Guernica....doesnt put me in that league but it damn makes me feel good about being an anti fascist...


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## audiotech (Mar 25, 2012)

I understand totally bn1.


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## audiotech (Mar 25, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> There wasn't any offensive against the fash in Leeds...


 
There were mass pickets organised in the city centre when paper sellers were being targeted.

Not from the SWP, but a few NF were put on their arses in Pudsey, nr Leeds, by others. Strange that TW turned up after that rumble had ended?

The BPP tried to have a showing later after all that, but were humiliated and had to be escorted by the police and shoved into taxis from a farcical picket they'd tried to organise. I think about three or four of them turned up, facing hundreds of anti-fascists.


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## bignose1 (Mar 26, 2012)

audiotech said:


> There were mass pickets organised in the city centre when paper sellers were being targeted.
> 
> Not from the SWP, but a few NF were put on their arses in Pudsey, nr Leeds, by others. Strange that TW turned up after that rumble had ended?
> 
> The BPP tried to have a showing later after all that, but were humiliated and had to be escorted by the police and shoved into taxis from a farcical picket they'd tried to organise. I think about three or four of them turned up, facing hundreds of anti-fascists.


Tony White...probably told by his handler to arrive a tad late...btw whatever happened to angry face Appleyard...


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## audiotech (Mar 26, 2012)

Dave Appleyard, middle-class and fascist wannabe?

http://www.1in12events.co.uk/archive/publications/fascists/background.html


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## bignose1 (Mar 26, 2012)

audiotech said:


> Dave Appleyard, middle-class and fascist wannabe?
> 
> http://www.1in12events.co.uk/archive/publications/fascists/background.html


Was never sure...but no surprise....dont want to sound like Joey 'fruit cake' Owens but I bet Whatmoughs at it....


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## audiotech (Mar 26, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Was never sure...but no surpise....dont want to sound like Joey 'fruit cake' Owens but I bet Whatmoughs at it....


 
That's a definite, btw he was one of those who met with the pavement in Pudsey I mentioned. With all the bandages he was wearing, he looked like an extra from 'The 'Mummy Returns', or was he calling for his mummy? Hard to tell.


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## Joe Reilly (Mar 26, 2012)

articul8 said:


> this is symptomatic - you only count as "anti-fascist" if you've personally administered violence to them (irrespective of the fact that for all of my adult life they haven't been taking up street-fighting methods)? Maybe its partly a generational thing. (fwiw - I am an "anti-fascist", I'm not making some liberal attacks on physical confrontation with fash per se. But not having been involved in street fights doesn't mean I'm anti anti-fascist. No, I haven't been a football hooligan (I tend to prefer watching the games). There is a whole genre of hool-lit though where people look back and think "wtf was all that about? Still, miss the buzz, the adrenalin rush etc">


 

That's not and has never been been implied much less stated. Personally administering violence dosen't come into it. There were loads of people in AFA, and thousands more that supported AFA events that would not have been happy on the pavement. That was no disqualfication.

Indeed there were a goodly number who did actively support engagements with the opposition but who on an individual level had little or no experience of (unlike, incidentally those 'at the centre') violence outside of politics. Nevertheless they routinely turned out, not for 'the buzz' but because they knew that numbers were important, and they saw it as their duty as anti-fascists to be there.  

What all of them offered was an unequivocal political support for the tactic as those engaged in it saw fit. That was mandatory; a prerequisite. It was that principle, and not the use of force itself that distinguishes militant anti-fascism from the less efficient variety.

Otherwise it's a familiar slippery slope as others on here have testified.

The Chapel Market scenario referred to by Ayatollah is a case in point. Here we had a member of the SWP CC accidentally stumbling across an imminent confrontation and being invited to stand with his party colleagues fearing imminent attack from a greater number of NF mustering across the road. 

Self-evidently every man and woman counted in such circumstances, not in terms of inflicting violence, but in terms of offering moral support, and through adding to the numbers and standing their ground, they knew they offered both a rebuke and a deterrent to the fascists busily assessing their options.

Whether he considered he was physically equipped for such a role was not what mattered. Less able than him stood. 

It wasn't a matter of tactic's but of personal integrity.


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## ayatollah (Mar 26, 2012)

The is another quite famous story..apparently true... SOUNDS true. Vanesa Redgrave, ex luminery of the WRP. meeting at a Hollywood Soire with her Luvvie pals. Robert de Niro says "jeez Vanessa... all this revolutionery stuff you and Corin are into.....do you mean you're gonna SHOOT folks ?" Vanessa sips a long dark drinkies..."oh dahling... other people would do that"

People like Callinicos, and Redgrave, lack not only physical courage (and that is much more about an attitude of MIND rather , than big muscles --an iron bar up the sleeve equals out many hours honing muscles in the gym), but a moral courage, which says you stand in the line when others are at risk, and do what you can, share the risk, pain, and "distasteful tasks". anyone who thinks their "role" is just as a "theoretician" or "leader" is fundamentally politically corrupt - a Noske or Ebert in waiting to get all historical.

You seem very personally sensitive about all this physical stuff, articul8,......sure there's NEVER been any time when you should have stood alongside your mates but didn't ? It's not always a physical issue... can also be risking your job in a strike situation...speaking out about workplace bullying or corruption.....just doing the right thing despite potential personal disadvantage or harm.


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## Joe Reilly (Mar 27, 2012)

ayatollah said:


> You seem very personally sensitive about all this physical stuff, articul8,......sure there's NEVER been any time when you should have stood alongside your mates but didn't ? It's not always a physical issue... can also be risking your job in a strike situation...speaking out about workplace bullying or corruption.....just doing the right thing despite potential personal disadvantage or harm.


 

I'm not sure it helps to personalise it in this way. For one, it is far too widespread for that. It might be that people on the Left look around them and see people like themselves; with similar backgrounds, abilities, aspirations, strengths and weaknesses and so on and come to believe that they are not only representative of the entire left but this is how it was always peopled. Accordingly other elements who also claim to be of the left, who act, think, and operate very differently, with different strengths and weaknesses, are regarded with atavistic suspicion: 'You are not one of us'.

With the fear of 'the other' established almost instantly the thought process goes something like this. If we are the genuine article then you, who are so different, have to be some kind of imposter. Which automatically leads to questions of motivation. What would motivate a person to do something as a matter of routine, that would to me, a bone fide socialist and anti-fascist, be anathema?

Obviously If I am the genuine article then their rationale can be nothing other than base.

Self-aggrandizing, unnecessarily brutal, adventurist, and when you think about it, almost (but whisper it) fascistic. All of which, and worse, have been stated or implied over the years.

Why this incessant finger-pointing? Actually it's fairly simple as it introduces what Lord Denning, in the appeal of the Birmingham 6 called an 'appalling vista'. What he found indegistible was the either or scenario.

If the Brum Six were telling the truth then that means the entire police, prison, and forensic service, were perjurers.

It also follows that if 'Squadists', AFA were genuinely anti-fascist then...? Just as unthinkable.


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## miktheword (Mar 27, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> I'm not sure it helps to personalise it in this way. For one, it is far too widespread for that. It might be that people on the Left look around them and see people like themselves; with similar backgrounds, abilities, aspirations, strengths and weaknesses and so on and come to believe that they are not only representative of the entire left but this is how it was always peopled. Accordingly other elements who also claim to be of the left, who act, think, and operate very differently, with different strengths and weaknesses, are regarded with atavistic suspicion: 'You are not one of us'.
> 
> With the fear of 'the other' established almost instantly the thought process goes something like this. If we are the genuine article then you, who are so different, have to be some kind of imposter. Which automatically leads to questions of motivation. What would motivate a person to do something as a matter of routine, that would to me, a bone fide socialist and anti-fascist, be anathema?
> 
> ...


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## articul8 (Mar 27, 2012)

ayatollah said:


> You seem very personally sensitive about all this physical stuff, articul8,......sure there's NEVER been any time when you should have stood alongside your mates but didn't ? It's not always a physical issue... can also be risking your job in a strike situation...speaking out about workplace bullying or corruption.....just doing the right thing despite potential personal disadvantage or harm.


 
I'm can't think of a single time I've "bottled it".(the two "political" fights I've ever been in have been against the odds, not that it matters)

I stood up for my colleague against my bosses in an industrial tribunal and stood to gain nothing whatsoever in return (quite the opposite).  I don't want or expect anything in return, but neither will I take bullshit about it either.


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## past caring (Mar 27, 2012)

And on the substantive points?


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## articul8 (Mar 28, 2012)

past caring said:


> And on the substantive points?


 
I was answering a question directly put to me by Ayatollah.  Joe's already accepted that violence isn't the only way to be genuinely anti-fascist.  I'm not making this accusation of RA, but some around AFA and afterwards wanted to keep up street fighting tactics long after they were tactically redundant/counter-productive.  This shows that there is the *potential* for the politics to be subordinated to the buzz of the aggro.


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## love detective (Mar 28, 2012)

yes, but don't you find it odd that those who stressed at the time the redundancy of, and the necessity to dispense with, political violence as an effective tactic are often the same ones who are implicitly or explicitly labelled as those who were there just for the buzz of the agro and for fighting in and off itself  - this is pretty much the standard liberal lefty revisionist view of things - which of course completely inverts the reality of what happened


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## articul8 (Mar 28, 2012)

I guess.  But the breathless hool-lit style of parts of BTF hardly helps to avoid that conclusion, and neither does the fact that the energy around the IWCA project appears to have dissipated.


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## love detective (Mar 28, 2012)

neither of those two things have any connection to, or bearing on ,the point I made though


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## past caring (Mar 28, 2012)

articul8 said:


> I was answering a question directly put to me by Ayatollah. Joe's already accepted that violence isn't the only way to be genuinely anti-fascist. I'm not making this accusation of RA, but some around AFA and afterwards wanted to keep up street fighting tactics long after they were tactically redundant/counter-productive. This shows that there is the *potential* for the politics to be subordinated to the buzz of the aggro.


 
So when precisely - in your view - did the street fighting tactics become redundant? Be useful if you could also give reasons as to why.



articul8 said:


> I guess. But the breathless hool-lit style of parts of BTF hardly helps to avoid that conclusion, and neither does the fact that the energy around the IWCA project appears to have dissipated.


 
So the energy around the IWCA projecting appearing to have dissipated (in your view) is a consequence of the fact that those who previously advocated physical violence against the fascists still, in reality, wanted to be involved in that? And their arguments within AFA as to it being essential that the IWCA project was the way to go were nothing more than an elaborate get-up?

What exactly are you trying to say here?


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## love detective (Mar 28, 2012)

there's always that lingering doubt among a certain type about a certain type isn't there - no matter that there is no rational, logical or empirical reasons for it, it seems to constantly emerge and manifest itself in all kinds of ways - the fear of the 'other' as joe put it above


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## butchersapron (Mar 28, 2012)

articul8 said:


> I was answering a question directly put to me by Ayatollah. Joe's already accepted that violence isn't the only way to be genuinely anti-fascist. I'm not making this accusation of RA, but some around AFA and afterwards wanted to keep up street fighting tactics long after they were tactically redundant/counter-productive. This shows that there is the *potential* for the politics to be subordinated to the buzz of the aggro.


 
Of course there is, this a a banality. There's the _potential_ for all sort of actions or responses to actions to undermine or push to one side the original intentions - labour councillors getting addicted to the little-power buzz their position affords them, academics getting addicted to freezing others out by deliberate and unnecessary use of complex jargon. Pointing out a potential for something to occour doesn't mean too much aside from asking whether it happened or not, if it did then to what extent, and did it drive or inform the organisations actions at the time and the (political) conclusions drawn. Now, have you a suggestion that this was the situation with AFA and now the IWCA? Because you already asked this in an interview and were fairly comprehensively answered, only to come back with it again. Have you come to a _conclusion_ then? If so, then for fucks sake spit it out, instead of this weasleing around the edges of it.


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## articul8 (Mar 28, 2012)

past caring said:


> So when precisely - in your view - did the street fighting tactics become redundant? Be useful if you could also give reasons as to why.


 
At much the same time and for much the same reasons as cited by RA/IWCA.  Once the BNP had concluded that building a street fighting force on open fash lines was a)very difficult and b)counter-productive to their electoral fortunes, then they started to put forward their 'analysis' in terms that resonated with some sections of working class communities.  This then necessitated a directly political response, and violence against people making a superficially reasonable and peaceable argument became counter-productive since the fash weren't isolated and isolate-able in the way they had formerly been.



> So the energy around the IWCA projecting appearing to have dissipated (in your view) is a consequence of the fact that those who previously advocated physical violence against the fascists still, in reality, wanted to be involved in that? And their arguments within AFA as to it being essential that the IWCA project was the way to go were nothing more than an elaborate get-up?


 
I'm saying there appears to be some contradiction between the political logic of the analysis and what sustained a subjective commitment and involvement in a small group previously working with a very different style and pace of operations.  There's a nostalgic tone to the book which suggests these were the "good old days"..?


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## love detective (Mar 28, 2012)

there is and was no contradiction between the political logic of the analysis and activity - it was the political logic of the analysis that produced that activity, then and now - activity was the result of and subordinate to the political logic/analysis. You may disagree with the political logic/analysis but you can't claim it's in contradiction with the activity that it subsequently produced/produces

your struggling here because you are grappling around trying to find a way of rationalising your irrational prejudice on this


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## articul8 (Mar 28, 2012)

I'm not struggling, I'm pointing (successfully if I might say so) to a palpable truth - your non-violent exploits aren't sustaining much in the way of active subjective commitment, and hence you're nostalgically reliving the more "exciting" aspects of a previous incarnation. That begs the question of the degree to which the violence was part and parcel of what kept people involved in the first place.


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## love detective (Mar 28, 2012)

you've completely detached yourself from any kind of semblance of logic or rational thought on this one i'm afraid - indeed that is what is required to even make an attempt (however flowed) to rationalise the inherent prejudice here

where is this 'nostalgic reliving of the more exciting aspects of a previous incarnation' actually happening out of interest? where is it manifesting itself? in what form does it do so?


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## articul8 (Mar 28, 2012)

You can agree (which I accept is unlikely) or disagree bu the logic of my post #2381 seems pretty clear. 

Where is the nostalgia?  Why, here on this thread, in the publication of the book, in all the chatter about it


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## past caring (Mar 28, 2012)

Yeah, this thread - all 80 pages of it - is _entirely_ dominated by RA and ex-AFA people recounting old war stories and reliving past glories.

articul8? Incoherent, more like.


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## articul8 (Mar 28, 2012)

past caring said:


> Yeah, this thread - all 80 pages of it - is _entirely_ dominated by RA and ex-AFA people recounting old war stories and reliving past glories.


a lot of it is!


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## bignose1 (Mar 28, 2012)

love detective said:


> yes, but don't you find it odd that those who stressed at the time the redundancy of, and the necessity to dispense with, political violence as an effective tactic are often the same ones who are implicitly or explicitly labelled as those who were there just for the buzz of the agro and for fighting in and off itself - this is pretty much the standard liberal lefty revisionist view of things - which of course completely inverts the reality of what happened


The buzz of running a spy inside the fash...of bugging their meetings..taking pics from the tops of buildings...all the covert stuff....was never appreciated by some elements who took it as some kind of cop out..they never understood the intelligence war more they didnt want to and they deliberately obstructed what people were doing and it was damaging. With some activists there was a certain naievity but generally they viewed it as useful but the old guard were deliberatly hostile...thought that bringing in heavies to lean on people would bring better results..and I will get a shitty reply cos there stubborn cnuts..


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## Deareg (Mar 28, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> The buzz of running a spy inside the fash...of bugging their meetings..taking pics from the tops of buildings...all the covert stuff....was never appreciated by some elements who took it as some kind of cop out..they never understaood the intelligence war and their suspicions were damaging. On a local level some the naievity of some was alarming...thought that bringing in heavies to lean on people would get better results..and I will get a shitty reply cos there stubborn cnuts..


Are you sure that you are not confusing all of this with just not trusting Searchlight?


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## ayatollah (Mar 28, 2012)

articul8 said:


> I'm can't think of a single time I've "bottled it".(the two "political" fights I've ever been in have been against the odds, not that it matters)
> 
> I stood up for my colleague against my bosses in an industrial tribunal and stood to gain nothing whatsoever in return (quite the opposite). I don't want or expect anything in return, but neither will I take bullshit about it either.


 
Good for you then, if true.....and I'm STILL trying to get a handle on your obsessive need to brand the physical force anti fascists who stopped the street thugs of the NF and BNP, etc, as "really" just footy hooligans. Because frankly this position places you with some of the most self-serving and spineless people on the "Left" then, and now.    People who denounced the Squaddists as "Thugs" on a Tuesday.. then literally hid behind them when the fascists menaced a papersale the next Saturday....It happened MANY a time I assure you.


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## bignose1 (Mar 28, 2012)

Deareg said:


> Are you sure that you are not confusing all of this with just not trusting Searchlight?


No mate...this was on a local level. I understand the reluctance...but dont forget AFA/RA still had an intel link til just after Waterloo if I remember right. I was pretty much shown the door by Searchlight in 94 for the company I kept and I suppose a little too much independance...my main loyalty was to Manchester and surrounds.


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## love detective (Mar 28, 2012)

articul8 said:


> You can agree (which I accept is unlikely) or disagree bu the logic of my post #2381 seems pretty clear.
> 
> Where is the nostalgia? Why, here on this thread, in the publication of the book, in all the chatter about it


 
people talking about and around a piece of important social history is not reliving anything it's, erm, talking about an important piece of social history

all books about the past are not then an important method of documenting, in a durable format, the social history of the time, but are merely a vehicle to relive the past are they? And by extension the only way to avoid that allegation is not to publish what you yourself admit is an important piece of social & political history?

and none of this has any logical connection to, nor is it a product of this notion that you have that  poeple's _'non-violent exploits aren't sustaining much in the way of active subjective commitment' _leading them to_ 'relive the more "exciting" aspects of a previous incarnation'_

the book itself took something like ten years from conception to hitting the shelves, so this idea that it's recent publication is somehow connected to the 'dissipation' of energy around the IWCA doesn't make sense from that perspective either


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## bignose1 (Mar 28, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> No mate...this was on a local level. I understand the reluctance...but dont forget AFA/RA still had an intel link til just after Waterloo if I remember right. I was pretty much shown the door by Searchlight in 94 for the company I kept and I suppose a little too much independance...my main loyalty was to Manchester and surrounds.


Dont forget this was around the time of some AFA/RA getting rounded up for 'other' matters...I think a sweep out was considered neccessary and perhaps I came into that category...I had by then done some field work training and operational stuff with some of the new guys SS NL...I never got into the political shenanigans though and most fair minded people consider my anti fascist contribution worthy but then there are others that never will....ah well


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## Joe Reilly (Mar 28, 2012)

articul8 said:


> Joe's already accepted that violence isn't the only way to be genuinely anti-fascist. I'm not making this accusation of RA, but some around AFA and afterwards wanted to keep up street fighting tactics long after they were tactically redundant/counter-productive. This shows that there is the *potential* for the politics to be subordinated to the buzz of the aggro.


 
Let's be absolutely clear what we are talking about here. What I said was that it isn't necessary to _personally_ use violence in order to qualify, but it is in my view, absolutely critical that you do _politically_ support those who are willing and able.

As BTF acknowledges certain elements within AFA did reject the Filling the Vacuum analysis. Ironically, the most egregious of that sub set located in Leeds (Searchlight entryists) did so not because they craved the buzz,(individually their reputations were anything but gung ho) but because they wanted anti-fascism as a whole to remain as a buttress to the Labour Party.

That FtV saw Labour as very much part of the problem was what they rejected. And thereafter used the most underhand methods in order to undermine AFA/IWCA project as a whole from without.

At the last general election Hope not Hate spent around £300,000: a reminder if one was needed that he who pays the piper invariably calls the tune.

Finally, for the type of 'anti-fascist' ever suspicious of the motives of physical force anti-fascism (and presumably any other physical force movement)  there never would be any march, picket, carnival for them to publicly parade their self-rightousness without the capacity of the latter being willing and capable.
Other than rely on the plod (who tend to step up only when _not_ needed) faced with the fascists unleashed, (I know, you've never had the pleasure) the tactic of choice would be to hide.


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## TopCat (Mar 28, 2012)

articul8 said:


> I'm not struggling, I'm pointing (successfully if I might say so) to a palpable truth - your non-violent exploits aren't sustaining much in the way of active subjective commitment, and hence you're nostalgically reliving the more "exciting" aspects of a previous incarnation. That begs the question of the degree to which the violence was part and parcel of what kept people involved in the first place.


Fucking irritant.


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## ayatollah (Mar 28, 2012)

Gawd love a duck..I can  certainly feel the old "red mist" coming on, articul8. Fetch me my soothing tincture Matron !


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## Red Storm (Mar 29, 2012)

.


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## Joe Reilly (Mar 30, 2012)

TopCat said:


> Fucking irritant.


 
True. But also revealing. He is certainly more representative of the Left than you or I. It's a reminder how once it passes a certain stage just how easily fascism can take power. He and the likes of Nigel irritable are anti-fascists in name only. Anti-fascists prior to fascists becoming a threat and again after the threat has diminished. Look at how tiny the resistance in France actually was. Would it have been markedly different over here?


----------



## articul8 (Mar 30, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> anti-fascists in name only.


 Nigel Irritable can speak for himself, but I've certainly never attacked the idea that physical confrontation with fascists is sometimes necessary.  It doesn't follow that street fighting can't become an end in itself for people who get caught up in it and lose a sense of perspective.  Maybe that's a banal and obvious thing to point out.  But the idea that the merest hint of critically analysing the implications of your breathless hool-lit means we aren't "proper" anti-fascists is just plain daft.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 30, 2012)

articul8 said:
			
		

> Nigel Irritable can speak for himself, but I've certainly never attacked the idea that physical confrontation with fascists is sometimes necessary.  It doesn't follow that street fighting can't become an end in itself for people who get caught up in it and lose a sense of perspective.  Maybe that's a banal and obvious thing to point out.  But the idea that the merest hint of critically analysing the implications of your breathless hool-lit means we aren't "proper" anti-fascists is just plain daft.



 Odd that you never called it breathless Hool-lit in the interview isn't it?


----------



## articul8 (Mar 30, 2012)

The interview wasn't about what my criticisms might or might not have been (in part I was voicing what I knew where standard left-liberal criticisms because I thought it was important to get a response).



> Reading the book, ​*as we said in our review*​
> , some of the violence described is not exactly for the faint-hearted. And many people reading the book might be thinking, isn't there a danger of becoming just like them, being brought down to their level? What would you say to those who say, when you end up like two groups of thugs who are as bad as the other, you don't win the wider public around?​​


​I wouldn't say the book was *only* "breathless hool-lit. If it was we wouldn't have thought it worth an interview at all.  It is important social history and  interesting for its FtV analysis, for its critique of mainstream anti-fascism etc. etc. But that style is one of its less attractive features and suggestive of dangers inherent in that approach (see above).​


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 30, 2012)

Right, so when you had the chance to do the interview you though for some reason that the responsible thing to do was to was put the middle-class liberal-lefty criticisms  - fair enough, you know your mags target audience, but when you get the chance to now put your own views you come out with an even worse version of those liberal-left objections ('breathless hool-lit' - as if you've ever read a hooligan book), and without having the honesty to openly state your case.


----------



## Demu (Mar 30, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> The buzz of running a spy inside the fash...of bugging their meetings..taking pics from the tops of buildings...all the covert stuff....was never appreciated by some elements who took it as some kind of cop out..they never understood the intelligence war more they didnt want to and they deliberately obstructed what people were doing and it was damaging. With some activists there was a certain naievity but generally they viewed it as useful but the old guard were deliberatly hostile...thought that bringing in heavies to lean on people would bring better results..and I will get a shitty reply cos there stubborn cnuts..


 
Perhaps you should elaborate. Is this all searchlight sour grapes, as I can't see where this fits with AFA history.

Sounds like you are redefining your role now that you have split from gerry and co.

Think you have spent too long on the 'dark' side.


----------



## love detective (Mar 30, 2012)

articul8 said:


> I wouldn't say the book was *only* "breathless hool-lit. If it was we wouldn't have thought it worth an interview at all. It is important social history and interesting for its FtV analysis, for its critique of mainstream anti-fascism etc. etc. But that style is one of its less attractive features and suggestive of dangers inherent in that approach (see above).


 
But earlier you were trying to claim it was but a vehicle to allow people to relive the excitement of earlier times and its publication was not about the documentation of an important piece of social history in and off itself, but an actual product of the 'dissipation of energy around the IWCA project'


----------



## articul8 (Mar 30, 2012)

The interview was about allowing RA/iWCA to present their case, and respond to typical objections (liberal-left, Leninist, anarchist).  It was hardly a hatchet job!  You've already acknowledged that the kind of problem I'm talking about - buzz of the action taking over from political perspectives - *could* happen.  So I'm both right but making a banal and obvious point, but also some uber liberal-left that is at the same time totally wrong!


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 30, 2012)

You're doing your usual job of having three different faces depending on who you're talking to basically.


----------



## love detective (Mar 30, 2012)

articul8 said:


> The interview was about allowing RA/iWCA to present their case, and respond to typical objections (liberal-left, Leninist, anarchist). It was hardly a hatchet job! You've already acknowledged that the kind of problem I'm talking about - buzz of the action taking over from political perspectives - *could* happen. So I'm both right but making a banal and obvious point, but also some uber liberal-left that is at the same time totally wrong!


 
the problem is the way you are coming across on this means that there seems to be little distinction on your part between acknowledging the possibility that something could happen (anything in reality could happen to anything at anytime,that's the banality of it) and recognising that it didn't - for you the possibility of the former seems to dominate the reality of the later - and instead of wondering or focussing or looking to learn about why it didn't happen (why it wasn't allowed to happen), you ground yourself entirely in the possibility that it could have, and use that as a stick to try and beat things with


----------



## articul8 (Mar 30, 2012)

love detective said:


> But earlier you were trying to claim it was but a vehicle to allow people to relive the excitement of earlier times and its publication was not about the documentation of an important piece of social history in and off itself, but an actual product of the 'dissipation of energy around the IWCA project'


 
Well,  I think it has something to say.  But the saying of it is bound up with a nostalgia and enjoyment of reminiscing about the good old days which implicitly makes a contrast with the apparent lack of momentum as far as the present day IWCA activities go.  

I'm trying to offer a balanced critical evaluation of what it represents - this doesn't seem to be acceptable.  I need to say either "Yay for the real anti-fascists!" or "boo to the squaddist thugs!"?


----------



## love detective (Mar 30, 2012)

you should lay of the sauce mate - it's doing nothing for your critical faculties


----------



## articul8 (Mar 30, 2012)

love detective said:


> you should lay of the sauce mate - it's doing nothing for your critical faculties


's a bit of a low blow.  You don't fight by Queensbury rules then?

I think what winds people up about you lot is the way that you assume that your actions and analysis have been totally exemplary in every respect, in comparison with whom everyone else on the left is more m/c, soft, "anti-fascist in name only", useless when tested etc...
But your grounds for asserting your wonderfulness is in a) something that didn't happen [for which you claim full and near exclusive credit], and relatively small successes of the IWCA - which are comparable with the achievements of some of the lefts you castigate so broadly.

Now, I don't know how well everyone involved managed to keep the buzz of the street action strictly subordinate to the overall politics at all times.  I know that the conclusions you reached suggest that finally this didn't carry the day.  And your analysis here is interesting and of some importance (even if I don't necessarily buy all of it).  But the style and form of BTF suggests the vicarious enjoyment of past glories - at the same time as the energy and momentum around your present-day activities seem to have fizzled somewhat.


----------



## articul8 (Mar 30, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> You're doing your usual job of having three different faces depending on who you're talking to basically.


Should I be flattered that you've granted me a third face?


----------



## love detective (Mar 30, 2012)

articul8 said:


> 's a bit of a low blow. You don't fight by Queensbury rules then?


 
i'm serious, your critical faculties and ability to reason in relation to this seem to be completely debilitated - your pairing together of completely different things as being somehow cause and effect, and the dominance in your analysis of the non-existant over the reality, does seem truly bizarre from where I am standing


----------



## articul8 (Mar 30, 2012)

the breathless hool-lit tone exists?  I haven't imagined it?


----------



## love detective (Mar 30, 2012)

any kind violence isn't pretty, therefore political violence isn't pretty. to accurately document the history of a time when political violence was a tactic means the language/style employed to do so is not necessarily pretty either - if you choose to categorise this as hool-lit then you're free to do so, but it would seem to promote form over substance

as i said your debilitated critical faculties, the pairing together of unconnected things in a causal manner and the dominance of your analysis on the non-existent are the more worrying things here


----------



## bignose1 (Mar 30, 2012)

Demu said:


> Perhaps you should elaborate. Is this all searchlight sour grapes, as I can't see where this fits with AFA history.
> 
> Sounds like you are redefining your role now that you have split from gerry and co.
> 
> Think you have spent too long on the 'dark' side.


You can only see what you want to see Denis...always have done so I wont waste my time explaining to you what you could never appreciate or understand...Why are you bothered anyway....


----------



## Joe Reilly (Mar 30, 2012)

articul8 said:


> Nigel Irritable can speak for himself, but I've certainly never attacked the idea that physical confrontation with fascists is sometimes necessary. It doesn't follow that street fighting can't become an end in itself for people who get caught up in it and lose a sense of perspective. Maybe that's a banal and obvious thing to point out. But the idea that the merest hint of critically analysing the implications of your breathless hool-lit means we aren't "proper" anti-fascists is just plain daft.


 
You have singularly failed to provide a single example where physical force was employed to secure objectives that were anything other than political. Yet you claim you are involved in 'critically analysing' the conclusions drawn in BTF.

I'm beginning to question whether you have even read it. Because all of the banal questions you have asked on here were addressed in a variety of way throughout the book. Yet you still demand an explaination for the importance of 1994 in terms of the narrative? Or claim to fail to see what the connection can be between stopping Blood&Honour gigs and stopping the development of euro-nationalism.

On the face of it near every one is or claims to be an anti-fascist these days - including the BNP. But as the experience of the French resistance demonstrates it is sentiment that can evaporate at the firstwhiff of cordite. In actual fact, the capitulation occurs a long time before that. As I said before everyone can be an anti-fascist while it's easy, but at the first sign of risk to self, career or liberty 'the revolver is put back in the drawer'.


----------



## articul8 (Mar 30, 2012)

love detective said:


> the dominance of your analysis on the non-existent are the more worrying things here


 
This is quite funny given the whole thrust of your claim is to have caused something *not* to happen (Joe's "AFA dividend") - measured by what you positively achieved it's very hard to see how your justify your high-handed dismissals of the left in its entirety.  

As for Joe;s question above, you're hardly going to write "and then we kicked someone else's head in for a bit of a laugh on the way to the next battle with the fash" are you?   There is strikingly little in the book on say the miners strike or the poll-tax.  And I know you'll say "well that's not what we were writing about".  But it just seems that the fighting on the streets becomes the pre-eminent and essential way of defeating fascism, when actually building mass working class support for ideas that cut across fascism is surely the key, even though you need to protect the space you have to do this (march, selling papers, all the boring political stuff).


----------



## love detective (Mar 30, 2012)

articul8 said:


> This is quite funny given the whole thrust of your claim is to have caused something *not* to happen (Joe's "AFA dividend") - measured by what you positively achieved it's very hard to see how your justify your high-handed dismissals of the left in its entirety.


 
somewhat disingenuous there i would say - both cases,

i) the AFA dividend, and

ii) ensuring that the political objectives that political violence sought to achieve, never ended up being subordinate to violence for the sake of violence

are examples of things explicitly happening to ensure something else didn't - focus can then quite correctly be put on the method and the implementation of that method in reality to achieve those objectives - and indeed so can focus be put on the achievement of those objectives. So there's nothing in there that resembles your charge of a focus on the non-existent

you on the other hand are purely focussing on the possibility that something could have happened (but didn't because of the discipline involved in ensuring that it didn't) and using that possibility to paint a picture over the reality of what did happen



> But it just seems that the fighting on the streets becomes the pre-eminent and essential way of defeating fascism


 
if the underlying fascist threat predominantly manifests itself in the form of violence on the streets, what might you think would be an appropriate tactic to successfully confront that immediate threat? a paper sale, a meeting, a petition, a symposium?

and i notice you continually use the phrase 'street fighting' (to somehow put forward the notion of mindless violence for mindless violence's sake) instead of the disciplined politically motivated and directed violence that it actually was


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## articul8 (Mar 30, 2012)

The "AFA Dividend" is something you are concluding (ex post facto) happened from the belief that something else (the potential scale of sympathy for far right argument shown by the BNP vote wasn't tapped into by the fascists in their full pomp).   But you haven't established causation.  If I was being facetious I could just as easily refer to a "post-punk dividend" where people were diverted from far right ideas by listening to the Specials!  

I use "street fighting" to denote fighting on the streets, which is what we're talking about!  That it *can* be necessary for a political purpose doesn't mean it always *is* political anywhere and everywhere you engage in it.  You'd accept that presumably?


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## love detective (Mar 30, 2012)

well that's exactly my point, you are using the term 'street fighting' to help empty out the political content/objective/direction - because of course as you say street fighting is not always political 

so rather than characterise/categorise it by the specific type of political violence it was, you generalise it so it just gets lumped in with a general category of fighting/violence - which is somewhat disingenuous yet at the same time entirely obvious as to why you choose to do so

if we have two things and one is a sub-set of the other then to describe the sub-set in terms of the wider set is to deny a more valid, legitimate and accurate description of that sub set - you'd accept that presumably?


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 30, 2012)

Something can happen - something did happen. Argue how and why.


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## Demu (Mar 30, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> View attachment 17860
> You can only see what you want to see Denis...always have done so I wont waste my time explaining to you what you could never appreciate or understand...Why are you bothered anyway....


 
Not a case of bothered....more of interest, hence the request to elaborate, after all this is a discussion forum and you are well placed to elaborate.

I am not aware of searchlight ever discussing their intel ops with AFA, so how they could 'deliberately obstruct and damage 'them is hard to fathom. Worthy of substantiation, but don't bother if you are going to start frothing at the mouth. 

After all it will probably go straight over my head anyway.


----------



## The Prestonian (Mar 31, 2012)

articul8 said:


> This is quite funny given the whole thrust of your claim is to have caused something *not* to happen (Joe's "AFA dividend") - measured by what you positively achieved it's very hard to see how your justify your high-handed dismissals of the left in its entirety.
> 
> As for Joe;s question above, you're hardly going to write "and then we kicked someone else's head in for a bit of a laugh on the way to the next battle with the fash" are you? There is strikingly little in the book on say the miners strike or the poll-tax. And I know you'll say "well that's not what we were writing about". But it just seems that the fighting on the streets becomes the pre-eminent and essential way of defeating fascism, when actually building mass working class support for ideas that cut across fascism is surely the key, even though you need to protect the space you have to do this (march, selling papers, all the boring political stuff).


 
Firstly, that 'building the mass movement will defeat the fascists'' is the sort of head-in-the-ground logic the Trots have been throwing about for years. The truth is no matter how many people you can bring in for general lefty or working class activities; small groups who are dedicated, brave enough and capable of dealing with the violence of the fash are paramount. Theres a decent Trotsky quote on this:

'' But what is this "mass self-defense" without combat organizations, without specialized cadres, without arms? To give over the defense against fascism to unorganized and unprepared masses left to themselves would be to play a role incomparably lower than the role of Pontius Pilate. To deny the role of the militia is to deny the role of the vanguard. Then why a party? Without the support of the masses, the militia is nothing. But without organized combat detachments, the most heroic masses will be smashed bit by bit by the fascist gangs. It is nonsense to counterpose the militia to self-defense. The militia is an organ of self-defense.''

And I'd argue that the reason Beating the Fascists doesn't concern itself with those other topics (strikes, poll tax riots), is because there is information everywhere about those, very traditionally 'lefty' topics. Beating the Fascists deals with a topic which most people will have no clue about. I was only 18 when it came out (so theres no way I'd have remembered for example, news reports of the Battle of Waterloo) and Beating the Fascists was a revelation. My experience of anti-fascism was being herded into a kettle for a few hours then having riot police kick the fuck out of you for a bit. Every time I was told ''next time we'll have thousands, then we'll have the manpower to break the police line and chase the fash of the streets'' But the truth is at for example the EDL demo in Manchester in 2009, if there was no police the anti-fascists would have been massacred. BtF has inspired a new generation of Squadists (in a positive sense of course) in Manchester that I know of,  a proposition hopefully mirrored across the country.

Going off on a tangent a bit, but my point is the AFA people who contributed to BtF are the couple of dozen people out the entire country who are best situated to talk about the importance (and the mechanics) of militant / physical anti-fascism. Why would they go off on one about the miners when thats saturated topic.


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## bignose1 (Mar 31, 2012)

Demu said:


> Not a case of bothered....more of interest, hence the request to elaborate, after all this is a discussion forum and you are well placed to elaborate.
> 
> I am not aware of searchlight ever discussing their intel ops with AFA, so how they could 'deliberately obstruct and damage 'them is hard to fathom. Worthy of substantiation, but don't bother if you are going to start frothing at the mouth.
> 
> After all it will probably go straight over my head anyway.


You know very well what went on...when there was a need for a more 'subtle'' approach you'd shout no wel'l get ...... ......Im not getting involved in a discussion  with you on this matter Denis.
...............As regards frothing at the mouth and getting angry...the amount of times Ive heard about you lashing out when someone disagrees with you(PW) for one....highlights your lack of restraint....take the TH incident...it doesnt convince me Id be speaking to a man of reason
.........Im still wondering why a man of 53/4 can come out with a statement ''should see the crew weve got now'. Is this the only world you can live in Denis??
Cheerio.


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## ayatollah (Mar 31, 2012)

articul8 quote:

"I use "street fighting" to denote fighting on the streets, which is what we're talking about! That it *can* be necessary for a political purpose doesn't mean it always *is* political anywhere and everywhere you engage in it. You'd accept that presumably? "

In Manchester /North West in 70's and 80's we did much less actual street fighting than "home visits" to leading fascists,  and of course completely "on demand/non-selective" stewarding of general Left meetings  likely , or often  erroneously thought by the meeting organisers, likely,  to be attacked by fascists. Who knows.. if you'd been around at the time, we would have  willingly protected a meeting of YOURS , articul8 !  We often travelled many miles  in late evening in response to a paniccy claim by some Leftie meeting that "the fascists were about to attack".. only to find it was a false alarm when we got there !     It may often have been a waste of time, the stewarding bit,  - but we always saw what we did as "political" I can assure you --- whereas we did very often see the endless empty self important posturing of a lot of the Left , particularly the  Labourite Lefties, as simply pseudo political masturbation. All depends on your perspective and aims I suppose.


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## Red Storm (Apr 2, 2012)

The Institute of Race Relations seems to have a large quantity of AFA stuff in its archive. I don't have time to go check out what's there. I thought people might be interested to know it is there nonetheless. 

The executive director, Liz Fekete, was the Treasurer of AFA at one point.


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## Red Storm (Apr 5, 2012)

Just reading an article by Paul Thomas on racism and anti-racism at Leeds United. He was involved in Leeds Fans United Against Racism and Fascism from 87-95 and their fanzine Marching Altogether.

He's using a lot of AFA language, was he part of AFA?


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## manny-p (Apr 6, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> The Institute of Race Relations seems to have a large quantity of AFA stuff in its archive. I don't have time to go check out what's there. I thought people might be interested to know it is there nonetheless.
> 
> The executive director, Liz Fekete, was the Treasurer of AFA at one point.


 
How is your dissertation/studies going? You have given yourself an interesting subject to do it on.


----------



## Red Storm (Apr 6, 2012)

manny-p said:


> How is your dissertation/studies going? You have given yourself an interesting subject to do it on.



It's going well thanks. Finished my theoretical chapter and now on my AFA chapter. 

Just having to read through all the AFA and Red Action literature now. 

Once it is marked I'll probably put it on the archive.


----------



## manny-p (Apr 6, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> It's going well thanks. Finished my theoretical chapter and now on my AFA chapter.
> 
> Just having to read through all the AFA and Red Action literature now.
> 
> Once it is marked I'll probably put it on the archive.


Nice one. If you can't put it online send us a pm as I would like to have a gander.


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## Red Storm (Apr 9, 2012)

MacIntyre thread gone


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## Deareg (Apr 9, 2012)

I was looking for it as well, The doco is going to be shown on the CI channel soon.


----------



## fiannanahalba (Apr 10, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> MacIntyre thread gone


 
Really? Why would that be? All seems a bit Spooky.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 10, 2012)

Not sure what you mean there - unless I'm MI5sing something?


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## bamalama (Apr 10, 2012)

Didn't someone sign up under his name the other day?


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## Deareg (Apr 10, 2012)

No idea, only realised it was gone yesterday.


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## DaveCinzano (Apr 10, 2012)

bamalama said:


> Didn't someone sign up under his name the other day?


 
http://www.urban75.net/forums/members/donal-macintyre.55196/



> There are no messages on donal macintyre's profile yet.


----------



## bamalama (Apr 10, 2012)

Aye, got in ,the worse for wear,on saturday morning and there he was,latest new member.Then i noticed the thread was gone...


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## Red Storm (Apr 10, 2012)

bamalama said:


> Aye, got in ,the worse for wear,on saturday morning and there he was,latest new member.Then i noticed the thread was gone...


 
Dun dun duunnnnnnn


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## plug ugly (Apr 10, 2012)

fiannanahalba said:


> Really? Why would that be? All seems a bit Spooky.


 
S.Pooky or Spooky. Works both ways


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## bignose1 (Apr 10, 2012)

plug ugly said:


> S.Pooky or Spooky. Works both ways


Tres drole


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## Red Storm (Apr 10, 2012)

I hope this thread doesn't get deleted (again).


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## manny-p (Apr 10, 2012)

Deareg said:


> No idea, only realised it was gone yesterday.


Any way we can get it back?


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## manny-p (Apr 10, 2012)

*
donal macintyre* To Whom it Concerns
I would request an answer please
D. MacIntyre
Today at 9:46 AM​Report​​Like​Comment​​
​
*Mrs Magpie* Why didn't you just do a search? It's not very hard, a bit like using Google. You would then see it's gone, and has been gone since your request.
Today at 10:19 AM
​
*Mrs Magpie* Other posters have worked it out as you posted your request for all to see. You did request it should not be for publication, but you publicly published it yourself, which clearly we couldn't prevent you from doing short of taking your computer away from you before you posted it. We don't have that level of clairvoyance or power.
Today at 10:19 AM

*donal macintyre* Dear Sir 
in relation to the chat and forum involvng me on your website I would like to advise you that it is both libelous and dangerous. I would ask you to respectfully take it offline. It has already led to an escalation of threats against me which I have passed onto the Police. I request you to remove the thread please.
This is not for publication.

Donal


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## manny-p (Apr 10, 2012)

Oh yeah urban75 is responsible for people wanting to batter him? If that is Donal- you are a fuc*ing weasel of a journo.


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## Red Storm (Apr 10, 2012)

LOL


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## past caring (Apr 10, 2012)

Anyway, I would urge posters to refrain from posting stuff that could see _this_ thread put into quarantine (as it has been once previously) or deleted.


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## past caring (Apr 10, 2012)

Mind you, that said.....



> Mrs Magpie
> He doesn't appear to stick around long enough to read any replies, or notice any moderator activity complying with his requests. There's not a lot we can do about that.
> Do we know this is really Donal MacIntyre? I notice he can't spell libellous which surely points away from him being a bona fide journalist.​Today at 11:16 AM
> Mrs Magpie
> ...


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## DaveCinzano (Apr 10, 2012)

How do we know it's actually _Donal McIntyre_?

For all we know the fearless investigative journalist de jour had his lappy nicked after lurking around some dark alley in Brixton for a week (again), and the light-fingered swine responsible has compounded the larceny by posting - POSTING, dammit! - under Sir Macca of Madeitup's name.


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## Red Storm (Apr 10, 2012)

DaveCinzano said:


> How do we know it's actually _Donal McIntyre_?
> 
> For all we know the fearless investigative journalist de jour had his lappy nicked after lurking around some dark alley in Brixton for a week (again), and the light-fingered swine responsible has compounded the larceny by posting - POSTING, dammit! - under Sir Macca of Madeitup's name.


 
From the sounds of things Urban gets lots of libel threats so they probably can't be arsed with the problem of keeping the thread up. 

I don't think the thread was particularly important anyway, unlike this thread.


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## fiannanahalba (Apr 10, 2012)

It was important because of the overlap into anti fascism in the North West today.


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## Red Storm (Apr 10, 2012)

fiannanahalba said:


> It was important because of the overlap into anti fascism in the North West today.


 
Fair enough. Don't know something was happening today. 

Is there anything written on a thread about today?


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## The39thStep (Apr 10, 2012)

Speaking of anti fascism in the North West today which group is the priority for them ?

Is it the BNP with 41 candidates
EDP with 15
BFP with 5
NF with 2

or NWI, EDL?


----------



## manny-p (Apr 10, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> Speaking of anti fascism in the North West today which group is the priority for them ?
> 
> Is it the BNP with 41 candidates
> EDP with 15
> ...


The NWI are quite openly fascists.


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## Red Storm (Apr 10, 2012)

manny-p said:


> The NWI are quite openly fascists.


 
There are also about 6 of them.


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## SpineyNorman (Apr 10, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> There are also about 6 of them.


 
I don't think that's true actually, IIRC most of Barnsley EDL went over to the NWI and that was a fair size group, loads of BNPers went over when the party went to shit in the area.

Agree they didn't ought to be a priority for antifascists given the list of candidates The39thStep posted though.


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## Red Storm (Apr 10, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> I don't think that's true actually, IIRC most of Barnsley EDL went over to the NWI and that was a fair size group, loads of BNPers went over when the party went to shit in the area.
> 
> Agree they didn't ought to be a priority for antifascists given the list of candidates The39thStep posted though.


 
Well they don't bother doing much do they.


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## SpineyNorman (Apr 10, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> Well they don't bother doing much do they.


 
I've not been paying much attention tbh, vaguely remember them doing something against a stunt or summat UAF did but that was about a year ago. I basically agree they're essentially irrelevant, esp. when the BNP are standing in that many wards; we shouldn't overestimate them. But we shouldn't underestimate them either. They might have disintegrated, certainly not heard much from them lately, but I'll leave it till the end of the football season to make that assessment - when there's no matches to go to they might see a boost to numbers/increased activity.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 11, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> Well they don't bother doing much do they.


nor do most anti-fascists in all honesty.


----------



## fiannanahalba (Apr 11, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> Fair enough. Don't know something was happening today.
> 
> Is there anything written on a thread about today?


 
WTF i mean these days as in the recent past, the present and the future. 32CSM and its head honcho in Manchester are involved, or at least they give the public impression of being involved in anti fascism in this period while making films with Donal MacIntyre. Its an issue i think, dont you?


----------



## fiannanahalba (Apr 11, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> Speaking of anti fascism in the North West today which group is the priority for them ?
> 
> Is it the BNP with 41 candidates
> EDP with 15
> ...


 
You tell me.


----------



## Red Storm (Apr 11, 2012)

fiannanahalba said:


> WTF i mean these days as in the recent past, the present and the future. 32CSM and its head honcho in Manchester are involved, or at least they give the public impression of being involved in anti fascism in this period while making films with Donal MacIntyre. Its an issue i think, dont you?


 
I thought you meant today.

Yeah is an issue however the thread wasn't much of a loss was it? Another one can easily be started up again when something new happens.

This thread however contains so much information now it would be a shame to loose it. In contrast with the MacIntyre one. Which was the point I was making...


----------



## Red Storm (Apr 11, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> nor do most anti-fascists in all honesty.


 
Agreed. Although I don't think there is a whole lot to do.


----------



## Red Storm (Apr 11, 2012)

Macintyer book release pushed back another 2 weeks.


----------



## fiannanahalba (Apr 11, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> I thought you meant today.
> 
> Yeah is an issue however the thread wasn't much of a loss was it? Another one can easily be started up again when something new happens.
> 
> This thread however contains so much information now it would be a shame to loose it. In contrast with the MacIntyre one. Which was the point I was making...


Just realised that when i write - the day- in Scotland it doesnt always literally mean today or right now but in England the nuance is lost. My apology Red Storm i thought you were ripping the piss.

Agree this will re emerge but why was the thread pulled - Urban 75 seem to awful timid of potential lawyers letters and arsehole  reporters if it was really him.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 11, 2012)

...


----------



## DaveCinzano (Apr 11, 2012)

The Boss Class only does things like this for our own good, remember. Probably for reasons our tiny little ur-brains could not comprehend.


----------



## Red Storm (Apr 12, 2012)

Edition Date Number of Branches Notes
Fighting Talk 1 September 1991
Fighting Talk 2 April 1992 14
Fighting Talk 3 June 1992 22
Fighting Talk 4 February 1993 22
Fighting Talk 5 April 1993 27
Fighting Talk 6 June 1993 30
Fighting Talk 7 February 1994 32 Regionalised
Fighting Talk 8 June 1994 33
Fighting Talk 9 October 1994 36
Fighting Talk 10 January 1995 36
Fighting Talk 11 May 1995 37
Fighting Talk 12 November 1995 38
Fighting Talk 13 March 1996 34
Fighting Talk 14 July 1996 34 Germany Gone
Fighting Talk 15 November 1996 34
Fighting Talk 16 March 1997 32 TWAFA Gone
Fighting Talk 17 September 1997 30
Fighting Talk 18 December 1997 30
Fighting Talk 19 April 1998 29 Leeds and Huddersfield Gone
Fighting Talk 20 August 1998 29
Fighting Talk 21 April 1999 28
Fighting Talk 22 October 1999 28
Fighting Talk 23 February 2000 28
Fighting Talk 24 July 2000 4 8 Emails, regional addresses
Fighting Talk 25 May 2001 4 1 Email, regional addresses

This is a table of AFA branches listed in _Fighting Talk_. Shows the rise and fall in branches.

Thought it might interest people. I was doing this instead of reading through them... 

EDIT: just tried to make the table neater but it changed it all back


----------



## Red Storm (Apr 12, 2012)

Just reading old _Searchlights. _Looks like they got onto promoting AFA in October 86 issue 136. This seems to be the first proper promotion of AFA in _Searchlight_.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Apr 12, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> Just reading old _Searchlights. _



You'll go blind.


----------



## manny-p (Apr 14, 2012)

A quick question did AFA know about Dessie Noonans criminal activities whilst he was doing stuff with them? Or was it later that he became the gangland figure? Not shit stirring, genuinely interested.


----------



## manny-p (Apr 14, 2012)

..


----------



## Frances Lengel (Apr 14, 2012)

I promised a picture of me cock last week, didn't I?  I haven't forgotten, but me mam was away at her mate's last week an I wasn't about to go rootin round lookin for her camera, but this week should be Hugo-a-go-go. I'm goin to draw a swastika on it as well. In homage to that book, Children of the Sun, about Nicky Crane an such. Nicky Crane's actual name was Nicola - Some Boy Named Sue shit goin on there, I'll be bound.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Apr 14, 2012)

manny-p said:


> A quick question did AFA know about Dessie Noonans criminal activities whilst he was doing stuff with them? Or was it later that he became the gangland figure? Not shit stirring, genuinely interested.


 

Oh, they knew.


----------



## Red Storm (Apr 14, 2012)

manny-p said:


> A quick question did AFA know about Dessie Noonans criminal activities whilst he was doing stuff with them? Or was it later that he became the gangland figure? Not shit stirring, genuinely interested.


 
Yeah they knew. Paddy Logan was involved to an extent too. 

BtF is pretty candid about it.


----------



## manny-p (Apr 14, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> Yeah they knew. Paddy Logan was involved to an extent too.
> 
> BtF is pretty candid about it.


Yeah I re-read the book recently. There is a bit about Dessie in no retreat as well I think. Just wanted to hear why some of the Manchester AFA hung around with such a figure? I think there is some ex Manchester AFA that frequent urban. I guess the reason they tolerated him was that he was a handy guy to know when the shit hit the fan and someone who had a lot of influence in certain areas? After reading about him he did seem to be an anti-social element. Funnily enough both him and Paddy ended up murdered. If you lie with dogs I guess.


----------



## Red Storm (Apr 14, 2012)

manny-p said:


> Yeah I re-read the book recently. There is a bit about Dessie in no retreat as well I think. Just wanted to hear why some of the Manchester AFA hung around with such a figure? I think there is some ex Manchester AFA that frequent urban. I guess the reason they tolerated him was that he was a handy guy to know when the shit hit the fan and someone who had a lot of influence in certain areas? After reading about him he did seem to be an anti-social element. Funnily enough both him and Paddy ended up murdered. If you lye with dogs I guess.


 
Which side would you rather them on? I don't think he was _tolerated_ but welcomed as any other member was. 

I think a lot of Red Action members could be described as an anti-social element  .


----------



## Blagsta (Apr 14, 2012)

manny-p said:


> Yeah I re-read the book recently. There is a bit about Dessie in no retreat as well I think. Just wanted to hear why some of the Manchester AFA hung around with such a figure? I think there is some ex Manchester AFA that frequent urban. I guess the reason they tolerated him was that he was a handy guy to know when the shit hit the fan and someone who had a lot of influence in certain areas? After reading about him he did seem to be an anti-social element. Funnily enough both him and Paddy ended up murdered. If you lie with dogs I guess.


I've tried to have a discussion about this before, to deafening silence.


----------



## The39thStep (Apr 14, 2012)

manny-p said:


> Yeah I re-read the book recently. There is a bit about Dessie in no retreat as well I think. Just wanted to hear why some of the Manchester AFA hung around with such a figure? I think there is some ex Manchester AFA that frequent urban. I guess the reason they tolerated him was that he was a handy guy to know when the shit hit the fan and someone who had a lot of influence in certain areas? After reading about him he did seem to be an anti-social element. Funnily enough both him and Paddy ended up murdered. If you lye with dogs I guess.


 
I spoke to him about a month before he died and funnily enough he was talking about how he had had to deal with some local youths who were being anti social (abusing an Asian family).

Others will know him better  but Dessie had a sustained interest in politics and could hold his own quite easily  in political debate.

If by lying with dogs you mean being a victim of a sustained attack by low level drug dealer high on crack then there would be a few on the drugs board on here who also might be at risk with their recreational use.


----------



## Red Storm (Apr 14, 2012)

Blagsta said:


> I've tried to have a discussion about this before, to deafening silence.


 
Really? I found every person I've spoke to very open about it.


----------



## The39thStep (Apr 14, 2012)

Frances Lengel said:


> I promised a picture of me cock last week, didn't I? I haven't forgotten, but me mam was away at her mate's last week an I wasn't about to go rootin round lookin for her camera, but this week should be Hugo-a-go-go. I'm goin to draw a swastika on it as well. In homage to that book, Children of the Sun, about Nicky Crane an such. Nicky Crane's actual name was Nicola - Some Boy Named Sue shit goin on there, I'll be bound.


 
weirdo


----------



## Red Storm (Apr 14, 2012)

manny-p said:


> Yeah I re-read the book recently. There is a bit about Dessie in no retreat as well I think. Just wanted to hear why some of the Manchester AFA hung around with such a figure? I think there is some ex Manchester AFA that frequent urban. I guess the reason they tolerated him was that he was a handy guy to know when the shit hit the fan and someone who had a lot of influence in certain areas? After reading about him he did seem to be an anti-social element. Funnily enough both him and Paddy ended up murdered. If you lie with dogs I guess.


 
Red Attitude issue 12 has an interview with Dessie. You can find it here: http://afaarchive.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/red-attitude-issue-12.pdf


----------



## manny-p (Apr 14, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> Which side would you rather them on? I don't think he was _tolerated_ but welcomed as any other member was.
> 
> I think a lot of Red Action members could be described as an anti-social element  .


 
I don't think its as simple as that. Are you saying we should try and recruit gangland figures cos they might be useful in the battle against fascists?


----------



## manny-p (Apr 14, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> Red Attitude issue 12 has an interview with Dessie. You can find it here: http://afaarchive.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/red-attitude-issue-12.pdf


Cheers.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Apr 14, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> Red Attitude issue 12 has an interview with Dessie. You can find it here: http://afaarchive.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/red-attitude-issue-12.pdf


 

It's on it's side though.


----------



## Deareg (Apr 14, 2012)

Frances Lengel said:


> It's on it's side though.


Read it in bed.


----------



## Red Storm (Apr 14, 2012)

Frances Lengel said:


> It's on it's side though.


 
Save as pdf > view > rotate view > clockwise.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Apr 14, 2012)

Cheers.


----------



## The39thStep (Apr 14, 2012)

manny-p said:


> I don't think its as simple as that. Are you saying we should try and recruit gangland figures cos they might be useful in the battle against fascists?


 

He wasn't 'recruited', people knew him from way back


----------



## Red Storm (Apr 14, 2012)

manny-p said:


> I don't think its as simple as that. Are you saying we should try and recruit gangland figures cos they might be useful in the battle against fascists?


 
Are you saying that at that time you'd rather reject the criminal underground and leave it to the fascists?

The only contradiction, I think, with Dessie being on anti-fascist activities is that he was with republicans. But I think that this shows how well AFA was as a single issue group: anarchists, republicans, socialists and criminals could all work together effectively.


----------



## Blagsta (Apr 14, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> Really? I found every person I've spoke to very open about it.


I've tried to have a discussion on here about the seeming (to me) contradiction between the RA/IWCA stance on anti-social behaviour/lumpen elements (see recent discussion on here regarding the riots, for example) and working with someone like Noonan. I think its an interesting area for discussion, but have mostly encountered defensiveness and an unwillingness to discuss.


----------



## manny-p (Apr 14, 2012)

Blagsta said:


> I've tried to have a discussion on here about the seeming (to me) contradiction between the RA/IWCA stance on anti-social behaviour/lumpen elements (see recent discussion on here regarding the riots, for example) and working with someone like Noonan. I think its an interesting area for discussion, but have mostly encountered defensiveness and an unwillingness to discuss.


Good point.


----------



## manny-p (Apr 14, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> Are you saying that at that time you'd rather reject the criminal underground and leave it to the fascists?
> 
> The only contradiction, I think, with Dessie being on anti-fascist activities is that he was with republicans. But I think that this shows how well AFA was as a single issue group: anarchists, republicans, socialists and criminals could all work together effectively.


I don't know mate what I would have done. I would not feel comfortable hanging about with gangland figures. Cos I know that to get where they are most will have had to do pretty anti-social and barbaric things. They are also usually shrewd businessmen and have fucked over many people to get where they are(usually).


----------



## Joe Reilly (Apr 14, 2012)

Blagsta said:


> I've tried to have a discussion on here about the seeming (to me) contradiction between the RA/IWCA stance on anti-social behaviour/lumpen elements (see recent discussion on here regarding the riots, for example) and working with someone like Noonan. I think its an interesting area for discussion, but have mostly encountered defensiveness and an unwillingness to discuss.


 
At least part of the problem is that RA/IWCA is not an identified entity. And as someone else mentioned previously BTF is perfectly candid about Mr Noonan's involvement. The same question was also answered on another thread.


----------



## The39thStep (Apr 14, 2012)

Jack 'The Spot' Comer , anti fascist and gangland figure. History of defending Jews in the East End , involved in violent attacks on the British Union of Fascists including Cable Street. Whether its true or not it was said that he knocked out Mosley's body guard Tommy Moran.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Apr 14, 2012)

RIP Dessy, your(sic) not on your own.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Apr 14, 2012)

manny-p said:


> I don't know mate what I would have done. I would not feel comfortable hanging about with gangland figures. Cos I know that to get where they are most will have had to do pretty anti-social and barbaric things. They are also usually shrewd businessmen and have fucked over many people to get where they are(usually).


 
Dessie was not much interested in money as such. He was really suited to another age, maybe even another century.  For instance running a bar on somewhere like the Barbary Coast (the rougher end natch) wearing a fancy waistcost with a pistol stuck in his belt and blunderbuss under the counter would have suited him down to the ground.


----------



## Red Storm (Apr 14, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> Dessie was not much interested in money as such. He was really suited to another age, maybe even another century. For instance running a bar on somewhere like the Barbary Coast (the rougher end natch) wearing a fancy waistcost with a pistol stuck in his belt and blunderbuss under the counter would have suited him down to the ground.


 
Fantastic.


----------



## icebreaker (Apr 14, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> Dessie was not much interested in money as such. He was really suited to another age, maybe even another century. For instance running a bar on somewhere like the Barbary Coast (the rougher end natch) wearing a fancy waistcost with a pistol stuck in his belt and blunderbuss under the counter would have suited him down to the ground.


Could not resist to give my opinion on Dessie. Although there is no doubt that he was a republican socialist and a good antifascist and his heart was in the right place. There were/are rumours about in Manchester that he was a police informant. I mean with the prospect of doing time or turning an informant I know what many people would choose. This is the problem when you let someone like Dessie into an organisation/structure such as AFA. Although I don't know if he might have grassed on AFA/Red Action folk. I've heard that Red Action knew about these allegations many years ago, and were confident that it was a load of bull. But if Dessie was an informant it does not look good for Red Action. I'm sure I heard that his brother was going on awhile back about on a tv programme how Desmond was actually a sleeper cell in the provos which is probably crap but if true might scare a few republicans if he was an informant. Anyway, I've got that off my chest. Don't mean to smear a dead man's name, but the truth or rumours will come out eventually about this.

Thanks,


----------



## The39thStep (Apr 14, 2012)

icebreaker said:


> Could not resist to give my opinion on Dessie. Although there is no doubt that he was a republican socialist and a good antifascist and his heart was in the right place. There were/are rumours about in Manchester that he was a police informant. I mean with the prospect of doing time or turning an informant I know what many people would choose. This is the problem when you let someone like Dessie into an organisation/structure such as AFA. Although I don't know if he might have grassed on AFA/Red Action folk. I've heard that Red Action knew about these allegations many years ago, and were confident that it was a load of bull. But if Dessie was an informant it does not look good for Red Action. I'm sure I heard that his brother was going on awhile back about on a tv programme how Desmond was actually a sleeper cell in the provos which is probably crap but if true might scare a few republicans if he was an informant. Anyway, I've got that off my chest. Don't mean to smear a dead man's name, but the truth or rumours will come out eventually about this.
> 
> Thanks,


 
How would you be aware of these rumours about in Manchester Icebreaker?


----------



## icebreaker (Apr 14, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> How would you be aware of these rumours about in Manchester Icebreaker?


I live there.


----------



## Red Storm (Apr 14, 2012)

icebreaker said:


> I live there.


 
I've heard the rumours.


----------



## The39thStep (Apr 14, 2012)

icebreaker said:


> I live there.


 
Don't we all mate. And what was the impact of these 'rumours'?


----------



## Joe Reilly (Apr 14, 2012)

icebreaker said:


> Don't mean to smear a dead man's name, but the truth or rumours will come out eventually about this.
> 
> Thanks,


 
Yeah, you do. Your sole purpose in coming on here was to do precisely that. And by weasly implication extend the smear to the politicos with whom he is associated.


----------



## icebreaker (Apr 14, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> Yeah, you do. Your sole purpose in coming on here was to do precisely that. And by weasly implication extend the smear to the politicos with whom he is associated.


No. I have a huge amount of respect for Red Action and AFA. But some people in Red Action stuck their heads in the sand and didn't believe the intel when this first broke. The police even gave Dessie a codename.


----------



## manny-p (Apr 14, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> I've heard the rumours.


So this icebreaker person is just recycling old gossip? Or is there something in it?


----------



## Joe Reilly (Apr 14, 2012)

icebreaker said:


> No. I have a huge amount of respect for Red Action and AFA. But some people in Red Action stuck their heads in the sand and didn't believe the intel when this first broke. The police even gave Dessie a codename.


 
When did the intel first break? Who was the source for it? And what did _you_ personally do about it when it was brought to your attention?


----------



## SpineyNorman (Apr 14, 2012)

icebreaker said:


> No. I have a huge amount of respect for Red Action and AFA. But some people in Red Action stuck their heads in the sand and didn't believe the intel when this first broke. The police even gave Dessie a codename.


 
Hang on, a minute ago it was just a rumour, now you're saying the old bill gave him a nickname? And you only signed up today?

I'm suspicious of your motivations and I never even met the bloke.


----------



## bamalama (Apr 14, 2012)

First off i've not been here long but i think discussing this stuff on a public forum is bollox,and frankly anyone pushing for info to be made available about this on a public forum is either naive or out of the loop.Dessie Noonan wasn't afa and afa wasn't Dessie Noonan.I know that and I was never in afa, so I assume that it's pretty well known what his role was.Just because you're met with a deafening wall of silence when you ask a question doesn't mean it can't be answered.Maybe the people you're asking, find,in the general scheme of things,your question to be irrelevant/peripheral...


----------



## The39thStep (Apr 14, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> I've heard the rumours.


----------



## miktheword (Apr 15, 2012)

I seem to recall some desparate paranoid searchlight stooge posting up a similar 'rumour to discredit' on that indymedia thread before BtF came out.

Btw, just seen an advert for 'At Home With The Noonans' next Sunday 22/4 part 1/6 exclusive to The  Crime Channel on sky.
(For those who like their politics sanitised, there's always The Parliamentary channel)


----------



## icebreaker (Apr 15, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> When did the intel first break? Who was the source for it? And what did _you_ personally do about it when it was brought to your attention?


The intel first broke I believe around 92'. I'm not a mong and I won't answer the next two questions. I only wrote on this thread because it particularly annoyed me that some people were treating a murdering gangster/probable police informant as some sort of later day saint. How did someone with so many murders to his name not get banged up? Charges in West Midlands dropped etc. I won't post again on the subject. I believe the rumours should be looked at and it seems some people here are scared to/too stubborn to. I don't blame Red Action for not doing anything about them at the time. Dessie was a dangerous guy to fuck about with and they probably genuinely believed the intel to be false. But should it not be looked at? I've had my say.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Apr 15, 2012)

icebreaker said:


> ...some people were treating a murdering gangster/probable police informant as some sort of later day saint.


 
_"...there is no doubt that he was a republican socialist and a good antifascist and his heart was in the right place." (icebreaker Post 2497)_



Evidently you suffer from a split personality - both of them stupid.


----------



## intersol32 (Apr 16, 2012)

icebreaker said:


> The intel first broke I believe around 92'. I'm not a mong and I won't answer the next two questions. I only wrote on this thread because it particularly annoyed me that some people were treating a murdering gangster/probable police informant as some sort of later day saint. How did someone with so many murders to his name not get banged up? Charges in West Midlands dropped etc. I won't post again on the subject. I believe the rumours should be looked at and it seems some people here are scared to/too stubborn to. I don't blame Red Action for not doing anything about them at the time. Dessie was a dangerous guy to fuck about with and they probably genuinely believed the intel to be false. But should it not be looked at? I've had my say.


 
Just about everyone who has been involved in Irish Republican politics over so many years has been called a 'police informer' at one point or another, so it's hardly revelatory to hear the same old shite trotted out again. Funnily enough it's the kind of people who jump about and hysterically point the finger at others who are quite often themselves up to no good.

To give an example of this, Anthony MacIntyre (ex-IRA prisoner and author) was quite often over the years the target of such finger pointing. When I asked about this a while back, he just laughed and said "the last person to ever call me a tout, was at a public meeting in West Belfast...it was Denis Donaldson!" (who later admitted to being a British State agent).

I remember a Green Anarchist article from the early '90's that laid claim to Red Action being a "State run" organization. Complete crap which I seem to remember a member of GA being confronted with in Trafalgar Square one day, after which he shat himself and lost all of his papers.

Banding about gossip and rumour on a public forum hardly gives your opening statements any form of credibility. On this matter it's interesting that you ("icebreaker") should anonymously present such accusations on a forum where you know some close personal friends of Dessie Noonan congregate (and who by your own admission knew him better than you did).

If we ever thought an obligation to investigate every snide little underhanded jibe about being agent provocateurs or touts that was aimed at AFA or Red Action we'd have had precious little time for anything else (and then perhaps that's the point?). Rest assured that any organization worth its salt always had its own procedures for internal investigations and the like, but due to its very nature *most* of it (along with its findings) would be kept out of the public domain.


----------



## Red Storm (Apr 17, 2012)

Just wanting to give a little update on the AFA Archive (means I can procrastinate a little longer too)

It's running on its own now without me having to put links up. It gets around 100 views a day. 

What's been encouraging is that I've received a few emails from people saying thanks because its helped with with their research. Had a couple of undergrads from the UK, a PhD student in Germany and Dr Evan Smith from Flinders University in Australia.


----------



## bignose1 (Apr 20, 2012)

ANyone recognise these two characters photographed 3 years ago outside Manchester Town Hall during a BNP protest against a Jobs Fair.


----------



## Red Storm (Apr 21, 2012)

What were the four stations closed at the Battle of Waterloo? I've scowered BtF, No Retreat and the relevant _Red Action. _I can't find them for the life of me. The only one named seems to be Charing Cross. 

I remember the line 'AFA closed more tube stations than the IRA' but I cant find that either. Have I made that up?


----------



## Red Storm (Apr 21, 2012)

http://scholarship.law.marquette.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1154&context=sportslaw

I thought I'd draw this article to peoples attention. 

The title is 'When the Whites Go Marching In': Racism and Resistance in English Football. I don't recall it being in BtF so I thought I'd bring it to peoples attentions in case its not widely known. 

Quiet a good article which uses _Red Attitude_ and concludes that physical confrontation is the best way to stop fascism gaining a foothold.


----------



## Red Storm (Apr 22, 2012)

Just accidentally finished my dissertation. Had to miss out absolutely loads! Wrote 17,000 words but needs cutting down to 14,000 before submittal so I'll be leaving even more out!

Ended up with the title: On the Principles of Political Violence and the Case of AFA.

I hope its done AFA justice.


----------



## Red About Town (Apr 22, 2012)

Are you going to put it on the archive site at any stage?

Would love to read it.


----------



## Red Storm (Apr 22, 2012)

Red About Town said:


> Are you going to put it on the archive site at any stage?
> 
> Would love to read it.


 
Once marked I'll decide. If its shit it wont go up.

I would like to put up any _good_ academic works by students or anyone on the archive. I think it would be a good resource for anyone studying anti-fascism.


----------



## bignose1 (Apr 22, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> Once marked I'll decide. If its shit it wont go up.
> 
> I would like to put up any _good_ academic works by students or anyone on the archive. I think it would be a good resource for anyone studying anti-fascism.


You can put my Political Soldiers and Nationalist Unity disser up and the baby one I did for my Dip HE on Mosley in the North West. Got v gd marks


----------



## Red Storm (Apr 22, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> You can put my Political Soldiers and Nationalist Unity disser up and the baby one I did for my Dip HE on Mosley in the North West. Got v gd marks


 
Yeah brilliant. 

Email them to antifascistarchive@gmail.com

Make sure it has the bibliography on it.


----------



## intersol32 (Apr 22, 2012)

I've still got my 'Fascism as a New Social Movement' dissertation somewhere. Only a hard copy, but may also be floating around on disc. I'll try and sort it.


----------



## Red Storm (Apr 22, 2012)

intersol32 said:


> I've still got my 'Fascism as a New Social Movement' dissertation somewhere. Only a hard copy, but may also be floating around on disc. I'll try and sort it.


 
I'll scan it up if you'd be willing to send it hard copy. 

I got a cracking dissertation from an ex-Blagger about the BNP and NF in liverpool. It really is amazing.


----------



## intersol32 (Apr 23, 2012)

I'll see if I can find the disk first. I'd hate to lose it in the post or anything, as it's pretty much non-replaceable. I'll keep you informed anyway.


----------



## Red Storm (Apr 23, 2012)

intersol32 said:


> I'll see if I can find the disk first. I'd hate to lose it in the post or anything, as it's pretty much non-replaceable. I'll keep you informed anyway.


 
Fair enough.

Disk would mean CD wouldn't it? Not floppy?


----------



## audiotech (Apr 23, 2012)

I've got a dissertation lying around somewhere too, on race relations law, the far-right and violence. I also have a report written on fascist activity, commissioned by the local trades club, specifically looking at NF activity at Elland Road football ground during the seventies and eighties.


----------



## intersol32 (Apr 23, 2012)

Fuck. CD? We're talking years ago so it's a floppy. I can transfer the data onto a usb easy enough.

You're lucky it's not written on marble tablets.


----------



## Red Storm (Apr 23, 2012)

intersol32 said:


> Fuck. CD? We're talking years ago so it's a floppy. I can transfer the data onto a usb easy enough.
> 
> You're lucky it's not written on marble tablets.


 
Haha! I feared we were talking in terms of floppy.

I spent so much time turning Bignose's materials from cassette and VHS to mp3 and mp4 that I don't think I could handle any more old tech.

Glad you can do the conversion


----------



## malatesta32 (Apr 24, 2012)

rather amusing spat on shirtfront between browning stampton and B&H factions. so bitter!
its the dave jonbes BPP thread. hes such a loon even watmough thinks hes too much. which is saying something.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 24, 2012)

I wrote a really good essay about the ideology of fascism when i was at uni. I can't find it now though, a load of stuff got deleted a while back


----------



## DaveCinzano (Apr 24, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> rather amusing spat on shirtfront between browning stampton and B&H factions.


 
Why can't they just all kiss and make up? Don't they realise that THE FUTURE OF THE WHITE RACE DEPENDS ON IT?


----------



## manny-p (Apr 24, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> rather amusing spat on shirtfront between browning stampton and B&H factions. so bitter!
> its the dave jonbes BPP thread. hes such a loon even watmough thinks hes too much. which is saying something.


Lol the amount of cranks in the far right is unbelievable.


----------



## malatesta32 (Apr 29, 2012)

looks very interesting.
http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...n-france’-with-daniel-a-gordon-n1-9dx.292608/


----------



## Red Storm (Apr 30, 2012)

Just seen metapedia has an article on AFA and Red Action

http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/Anti-Fascist_Action

http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/Red_Action

They're pretty funny.


----------



## malatesta32 (Apr 30, 2012)

i like how they refer to hann and tilz's book as No Treat! are they trying to tell us sumat?


----------



## Deareg (Apr 30, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> i like how they refer to hann and tilz's book as No Treat! are they trying to tell us sumat?


All sticks and no carrots, that is how I remember it anyway.


----------



## Inigo Montoya (Apr 30, 2012)

_Wasn't sure where to post this._

AFA Ireland, via their Facebook page which enjoys 5,700+ likes, are currently compiling a list of anti-Fascists killed by the state or the far-right in the last few decades. It's a work in progress.

Link: https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.307615435965446.73622.192377537489237&type=1

If you know of any other 'fallen comrades', please mail them or leave a comment on the photo album.


----------



## Red About Town (Apr 30, 2012)

I think it's fair to say that it shows how effective AFA were that no anti fascist in the UK was killed during their time, despite hundreds of very violent confrontations with the fash.


----------



## manny-p (Apr 30, 2012)

Red About Town said:


> I think it's fair to say that it shows how effective AFA were that no anti fascist in the UK was killed during their time, despite hundreds of very violent confrontations with the fash.


True. Apart from deaths via confrontations with the pigs. Would also be interesting to see how many folk done time for anti fascist activity.


----------



## Red Storm (Apr 30, 2012)

Red About Town said:


> I think it's fair to say that it shows how effective AFA were that no anti fascist in the UK was killed during their time, despite hundreds of very violent confrontations with the fash.


 
I found it more amazing that no _fascist_ was killed by AFA.


----------



## bignose1 (May 1, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> Haha! I feared we were talking in terms of floppy.
> 
> I spent so much time turning Bignose's materials from cassette and VHS to mp3 and mp4 that I don't think I could handle any more old tech.
> 
> Glad you can do the conversion


Are you going to put them in the archive at any point perchance


----------



## bignose1 (May 1, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> I found it more amazing that no _fascist_ was killed by AFA.


We was only playfighting


----------



## Red Storm (May 1, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Are you going to put them in the archive at any point perchance


 
Aye they'll be going up in June. Got no time at the moment with uni work. Got loads of stuff that'll be going up.


----------



## Deareg (May 1, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> Aye they'll be going up in June. Got no time at the moment with uni work. Got loads of stuff that'll be going up.


FFS man, stop making excuses and get the fucking things done.


----------



## malatesta32 (May 1, 2012)

manny-p said:


> True. Apart from deaths via confrontations with the pigs. Would also be interesting to see how many folk done time for anti fascist activity.


 
theres a couple of right villains on ere manny! also BtF discusses the assault on nicky crane and the 3 lads that got 11 between em rightly calling the sentencing political. they got more time than crane did for any of his assaults. also an early member of RA was rumoured (dunno by whom) to be putting a book together as well. any news on that? could do with contacting him.


----------



## Red About Town (May 3, 2012)

I read that somewhere as well. MO'F I assume.


----------



## Red Storm (May 11, 2012)

Just noticed there are two songs on Red Action.

Here is the most popular: http://www.last.fm/music/Arresting+Officers/_/Stop+Red+Action

And the other: http://www.last.fm/music/English Rose/_/Smash Red Action


----------



## bignose1 (May 12, 2012)

Red About Town said:


> I read that somewhere as well. MO'F I assume.


Its gonna be about fc united last i heard but I expect a big fuck off intro


----------



## Red Storm (May 12, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Its gonna be about fc united last i heard but I expect a big fuck off intro


 
FC United and AFA?


----------



## bignose1 (May 12, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Its gonna be about fc united last i heard but I expect a big fuck off intro


Also might as well announce on here that NR will be the next project for a leading British Director


----------



## bamalama (May 12, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Also might as well announce on here that NR will be the next project for a leading British Director


No! Who...?


----------



## Red Storm (May 12, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Also might as well announce on here that NR will be the next project for a leading British Director


 
Donal Macintyre?

had to be done  

Baggsy playing Hefty.


----------



## Red Storm (May 12, 2012)

I can imagine the arguments now over the choice of actors for characters. 

"Jude Law staring as Steve Tilzey..."


----------



## butchersapron (May 12, 2012)

Nick 'facking' Love.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (May 12, 2012)

Danny Dyer as M O'F and Brendan Gleeson as G O'S, cameo by Tamer Hassan as Laurence Rustem.


----------



## intersol32 (May 12, 2012)

Matt Lucas to play Charlie Sargeant?

Jason Statham as Pat Hayes.


----------



## Fedayn (May 12, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> I can imagine the arguments now over the choice of actors for characters.
> 
> "Jude Law staring as Steve Tilzey..."


 
I'm sure they'll sniff a suitable candidate out.


----------



## rekil (May 12, 2012)

Stephen Fry.


----------



## bamalama (May 12, 2012)

shane meadows


----------



## Divisive Cotton (May 12, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Also might as well announce on here that NR will be the next project for a leading British Director


 
brilliant!

GoS?







wrong accent


----------



## Red Storm (May 12, 2012)

Ray Winston, Robbie Coltrane and Brian Blessed all need parts. Can't decide who for.


----------



## bamalama (May 12, 2012)

Are youse gonna call it a "a fat lad production" he he
sounds class by the way


----------



## Deareg (May 12, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> I'm sure they'll sniff a suitable candidate out.


Pete Townsend?


----------



## bignose1 (May 12, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> I can imagine the arguments now over the choice of actors for characters.
> 
> "Jude Law staring as Steve Tilzey..."
> 
> ...


Ps should have said next but one.


----------



## Red Storm (May 12, 2012)

bamalama said:


> Are youse gonna call it a "a fat lad production" he he
> sounds class by the way


----------



## Red Storm (May 12, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Ps should have said next but one.


 
Where else has it been said?


----------



## Divisive Cotton (May 12, 2012)

I want rorymac to have a cameo as himself


----------



## bignose1 (May 12, 2012)

bamalama said:


> Are youse gonna call it a "a fat lad production" he he
> sounds class by the way


Ha ha ....yeah summatt like that.....Portly Productions.....


----------



## Deareg (May 12, 2012)

intersol32 said:


> Matt Lucas to play Charlie Sargeant?
> 
> Jason Statham as Pat Hayes.


Matt Lucas would be better cast as Ian Stewart.


----------



## Red Storm (May 12, 2012)

Deareg said:


> Matt Lucas would be better cast as Ian Stewart.


 
David Walliams as Nicky Crane?


----------



## Deareg (May 12, 2012)

Danny DeVito as Charlie Sergeant I reckon.


----------



## bamalama (May 12, 2012)

gollum as kev turner ?


----------



## Deareg (May 12, 2012)

A suicide bomber as Lecomber?


----------



## Red About Town (May 12, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Its gonna be about fc united last i heard but I expect a big fuck off intro


 
Any idea when it's due out?


----------



## audiotech (May 12, 2012)

Nominated for a bAFtA perhaps?


----------



## Inigo Montoya (May 17, 2012)

Some old AFA stickers featured here:

http://antifascistaction.tumblr.com/


----------



## audiotech (May 17, 2012)

Inigo Montoya said:


> Some old AFA stickers featured here:
> 
> http://antifascistaction.tumblr.com/


 
Like.


----------



## manny-p (May 18, 2012)

antifa fight club


----------



## Inigo Montoya (May 20, 2012)

It's mentioned here (http://azvsas.blogspot.com/2010/01/dave-hann-appreciation.html) that Mark E. Smith (The Fall) positively namechecks 'No Retreat' in his biography.

Can anyone post up the actual quote?

Did he or the band have any links to AFA at all?


----------



## DaveCinzano (May 20, 2012)

Or rather 'AFF-UH'


----------



## Inigo Montoya (May 20, 2012)

Wiki suggests Phil Jupitus was "associated" with AFA.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phill_Jupitus

Can anyone elaborate?


----------



## bignose1 (May 21, 2012)

Inigo Montoya said:


> It's mentioned here (http://azvsas.blogspot.com/2010/01/dave-hann-appreciation.html) that Mark E. Smith (The Fall) positively namechecks 'No Retreat' in his biography.
> 
> Can anyone post up the actual quote?
> 
> Did he or the band have any links to AFA at all?


It was quoted in the book. I bump into him every so often usually in town and we always chat briefly, infact I think I gave him a copy when he was in our house with one of my lodgers he met coming back from Italy late at night....both arseoled and it got messy. Ive got his book somewhere so Ill quote it later when Im up proper,(tooth ache). As far as I know no direct links...his gigs used to get some hassle in the early days but he would fuck em off. Any reason for the interest?


----------



## bignose1 (May 21, 2012)

Inigo Montoya said:


> Wiki suggests Phil Jupitus was "associated" with AFA.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phill_Jupitus
> 
> Can anyone elaborate?


Had a few chats with Phil at gigs esp Specials...good lad...was impresssed we were such big mates with Terry. Did his head in in the pub along with a few hundred other gig goers when we started a rumour that the gig( reunion tour 2009) was off(Nottingham) as Terry had food poisoning....kept it going for a while until someone came over very irate and confronted us...cue my pal ''yeah it was probably 'chinese' whispers mate ...however Terry is poorly.....had a takeaway last night....too much..too much..too much foo yung..............nearly got battered.... but 'cueing' up the gag for about half an hour was fun.
Then at breakfast next day in the hotel...Terry came down and sat with us. I said to the waitress he doesnt fancy white bread today....''oh'' she said........cue me and pals....''this time hed like to have his toast brown.....der der der''
......cue 'blank expression' arghhh


----------



## DaveCinzano (May 21, 2012)




----------



## bignose1 (May 21, 2012)




----------



## cantsin (May 21, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Had a few chats with Phil at gigs esp Specials...good lad...was impresssed we were such big mates with Terry. Did his head in in the pub along with a few hundred other gig goers when we started a rumour that the gig( reunion tour 2009) was off(Nottingham) as Terry had food poisoning....kept it going for a while until someone came over very irate and confronted us...cue my pal ''yeah it was probably chinese whispers mate ...Terrys poorly.....had a takeaway last night....too much..too much..too much foo yung..............nearly got battered.... but 'cueing' up the gag for about half an hour was fun.
> Then at breakfast next day in the hotel...Terry came down and sat with us. I said to the waitress he doesnt fancy white bread today....''oh'' she said........cue me and pals....''this time hed like to have his toast brown.....der der der''
> ......cue 'blank expression' arghhh


 
super-fun japes all the way eh....sounds bloody exhausting tbh


----------



## manny-p (May 21, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Had a few chats with Phil at gigs esp Specials...good lad...was impresssed we were such big mates with Terry. Did his head in in the pub along with a few hundred other gig goers when we started a rumour that the gig( reunion tour 2009) was off(Nottingham) as Terry had food poisoning....kept it going for a while until someone came over very irate and confronted us...cue my pal ''yeah it was probably chinese whispers mate ...Terrys poorly.....had a takeaway last night....too much..too much..too much foo yung..............nearly got battered.... but 'cueing' up the gag for about half an hour was fun.
> Then at breakfast next day in the hotel...Terry came down and sat with us. I said to the waitress he doesnt fancy white bread today....''oh'' she said........cue me and pals....''this time hed like to have his toast brown.....der der der''
> ......cue 'blank expression' arghhh


You have another book in you!


----------



## bignose1 (May 21, 2012)

cantsin said:


> super-fun japes all the way eh....sounds bloody exhausting tbh


Quite right but my gig going mates are also my footy mates (away games) and most are left /antifash leaning. Hence we have a similar daft humour and the pun stuff is a bit 'wacky' at times. On away games on the coach( but not the chisel heads) we have this word association game...like choose two random categories..ie football and music...hence Peter Begee, Ian Durant Durant, do you really want to Hurst me, roll over eindhoven ... however the winner coming back from Southamptom about 5 years ago....Black Webb-el Goater Schmeichel Club...


----------



## Red Storm (May 22, 2012)

http://antifascistarchive.com/2012/05/21/weekly-update-6/

Bored of revision so I've put up a couple of new bits.


----------



## Nice one (May 22, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> http://antifascistarchive.com/2012/05/21/weekly-update-6/
> 
> Bored of revision so I've put up a couple of new bits.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (May 22, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> http://antifascistarchive.com/2012/05/21/weekly-update-6/
> 
> Bored of revision so I've put up a couple of new bits.


 
You will be doing a credit/link to the site where you found those Blaggers interview pdfs, of course?


----------



## DaveCinzano (May 22, 2012)

Uncarved, perchance?

Si Gane, who did Arnie, is still knocking up excellent artwork.


----------



## chilango (May 22, 2012)

_Arnie_ was cool.


----------



## DaveCinzano (May 22, 2012)

Not as cool as Arnie's mum


----------



## DaveCinzano (May 22, 2012)




----------



## chilango (May 22, 2012)

I hope I still have my Arnies somewhere....


----------



## DaveCinzano (May 22, 2012)

He's on twitter so you can hassle him in pursuit of any spares taking up loft space


----------



## Red Storm (May 22, 2012)

Fozzie Bear said:


> You will be doing a credit/link to the site where you found those Blaggers interview pdfs, of course?



Yeah it's on te draft. Waiting for this upgrade thingy to put the audio on then I can update the post.


----------



## malatesta32 (May 22, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> http://antifascistarchive.com/2012/05/21/weekly-update-6/
> 
> Bored of revision so I've put up a couple of new bits.


 
excellent stuff. am i right in thinking that blaggers were red skins at the start?


----------



## Deareg (May 22, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> excellent stuff. am i right in thinking that blaggers were red skins at the start?


Only two of the original Blaggers were skinheads.


----------



## malatesta32 (May 22, 2012)

i just recall a very early pic wich i have not got and a couple of em were a bit sta-prest and DM/bomber jackety type thingies!


----------



## Deareg (May 22, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> i just recall a very early pic wich i have not got and a couple of em were a bit sta-prest and DM/bomber jackety type thingies!


I meant to say two of them. Tim and Matt Vinyl.


----------



## Red Storm (May 22, 2012)

http://antifascistarchive.com/2012/05/21/weekly-update-6/

I've added the last bits before June now. 


I've uploaded the audio to the Blaggers post 
I've added a picture of a Red Action t-shirt that was kindly sent to me
I've added the text of Heroes or Villians? thanks to Butchersapron.
Someone sent me a chronology of events which I put up.
Finally, I found a reaction to AFA's international conference from a yank group with I uploaded. 
Bought the space upgrade so I can add audio files now plus I think it secures the uploaded files for the future more.


----------



## krink (May 23, 2012)

It is 20 years almost to the day since I saw the Fighting Talk documentary on TV sitting in me Mam's kitchen and I think my mind was made up when that lad says about the ANL lollipop signs that he and AFA would be half way over the road smashing them over the fash's bastard heads! Still got it on VHS.


----------



## Red Storm (May 24, 2012)

Someone has put up the whole of the BBC's footage from the Battle of Waterloo. I've never seen this footage in its enteririty before. 

Shows the tall AFA skinhead who takes a beating being much more of a hard nutter than before.


----------



## Red Storm (May 24, 2012)

The oft mentioned Dave Hann TV interview has also been put up. The person putting them up must be ex-AFA.


----------



## love detective (May 24, 2012)

i've got a whole load of stuff like this (from the cutting room floor so to speak from the promo video), keep meaning to put it up

this is the screen shot from just before the start of the video above


----------



## Red Storm (May 24, 2012)

love detective said:


> i've got a whole load of stuff like this (from the cutting room floor so to speak from the promo video), keep meaning to put it up
> 
> this is the screen shot from just before the start of the video above


 
'Giz'


----------



## Red Storm (May 24, 2012)

love detective said:


> i've got a whole load of stuff like this (from the cutting room floor so to speak from the promo video), keep meaning to put it up
> 
> this is the screen shot from just before the start of the video above
> 
> View attachment 19541


 
I've got the originals of the intel used in the video from ST. 

I'll be putting all that stuff up in June.


----------



## Divisive Cotton (May 24, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> Shows the tall AFA skinhead who takes a beating being much more of a hard nutter than before.


 
that's because he is he's a marshall arts expert

at the time he was thinking, Just stay on my feet at all costs

later he went to casualty to get his head wounds checked out but the place was full of fascists so turned around and left it for the day


----------



## Red Storm (May 24, 2012)

Divisive Cotton said:


> that's because he is he's a marshall arts expert
> 
> at the time he was thinking, Just stay on my feet at all costs
> 
> later he went to casualty to get his head wounds checked out but the place was full of fascists so turned around and left it for the day


 
A few people have told me about him before. I couldn't believe it after he got out of that scrum he got straight into another fash haha.

Mad guy.

That bloke in the purple coat needed a kicking.


----------



## malatesta32 (May 25, 2012)

there was also a 'legendary' battle with joey owens in liverpool as well which owens fails to mention in his bore wars book.


----------



## bignose1 (May 25, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> The oft mentioned Dave Hann TV interview has also been put up. The person putting them up must be ex-AFA.



The Dave Hann interview!!?? Oft mentioned by certain quarters as a Searchlight stitch up. Nonsense. Why then did JH not say something at the time. I was involved in that programme some of the shots were in my house, they were my flags and Im on it but they didnt choose to show my face. Another conspiracy made to fit. YAWN.
ps just saw your next post after I posted this.....


----------



## bignose1 (May 25, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> I've got the originals of the intel used in the video from ST.
> 
> I'll be putting all that stuff up in June.


 Looking forward to it mate....


----------



## Pickman's model (May 25, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> Someone has put up the whole of the BBC's footage from the Battle of Waterloo. I've never seen this footage in its enteririty before.
> 
> Shows the tall AFA skinhead who takes a beating being much more of a hard nutter than before.



yes. but (at work) does it show the fash having a heart attack? it would be useful for both entertainment and informative purposes.


----------



## Red Storm (May 25, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> yes. but (at work) does it show the fash having a heart attack? it would be useful for both entertainment and informative purposes.


 
The youtube channel owner says he has a lot of old news on AFA. He's currently converting them to go on his channel.


----------



## Red Storm (May 25, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> The Dave Hann interview!!?? Oft mentioned by certain quarters as a Searchlight stitch up. Nonsense. Why then did JH not say something at the time. I was involved in that programme some of the shots were in my house, they were my flags and Im on it but they didnt choose to show my face. Another conspiracy made to fit. YAWN.
> ps just saw your next post after I posted this.....


 
I wasn't meaning to take sides with the post. I was merely mentioning that that interview is often mentioned.


----------



## bignose1 (May 25, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> I wasn't meaning to take sides with the post. I was merely mentioning that that interview is often mentioned.


I know RS I'd never attach any of this shite to you. BTWb do you think you could get those audio tapes on soon.
ps The footage shown in that news item was shot by me and is the first ever public appearance of C18. Ive got the whole demo on tape somewhere....


----------



## malatesta32 (May 25, 2012)

get it out there chap! is that gary mitchell at the end with the bloody face looking a tad upset?


----------



## past caring (May 25, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> The Dave Hann interview!!?? Oft mentioned by certain quarters as a Searchlight stitch up. Nonsense. Why then did JH not say something at the time. I was involved in that programme some of the shots were in my house, they were my flags and Im on it but they didnt choose to show my face. Another conspiracy made to fit. YAWN.
> ps just saw your next post after I posted this.....


 
Not sure that it was claimed as a 'stitch up' - more that it was a case of Hann cutting ties/quarantining himself. If JH didn't say anything at the time, it was maybe because it only became apparent later exactly what the game was.....


----------



## Red Storm (May 25, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> I know RS I'd never attach any of this shite to you. BTWb do you think you could get those audio tapes on soon.
> ps The footage shown in that news item was shot by me and is the first ever public appearance of C18. Ive got the whole demo on tape somewhere....


 
Yeah they'll be going on in June, or earlier: my last exam is at 2pm so I might do them in the week. Needed to buy this upgrade to put audio up so I've only been able to do it recently anyway.

I've got several hours of tape. Need to some how separate them into different videos.

It includes a march up Oxford Road (not sure if it was Man. Martyrs or a loyalist one), footage in Sweden, footage of take from inside a car staking out a pub, footage that appears in that news footage. Maybe more. You've got more on your tapes. I couldn't work the DVD copier properly and had trouble because each tape had several different bits of footage.

I've also got the Ray Hill documentary but its spread between two DVD's so I need to merge them.

The other bits I got off you were the Ratcatcher doc, Violence with Violence and the Rochdale BNP video. Those three are already uploaded.

DC gave me all the Red Attitudes, they need to go up. Got fucking loads of other bits like Red Action pamphlets, intel docs, C18 and BNP shit.

Literally got 8 folders of stuff. I've also got more newspaper clippings to put up, lots more actually.

EDIT: it all needs to be scanned by the June 10 because apparently that's when I have to enter the real world and I'm not a student any more so I can't use the library scanner.


----------



## malatesta32 (May 25, 2012)

full time job this storms! great work tho and very much appreciated.


----------



## Divisive Cotton (May 25, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> there was also a 'legendary' battle with joey owens in liverpool as well which owens fails to mention in his bore wars book.


 
did that actually ever happen? I was never sure if it was just legend. I didn't feel right to ask too many questions about it


----------



## Red Storm (May 25, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> full time job this storms! great work tho and very much appreciated.


 
With my archive, the new Red Action website and the youtube videos being uploaded by 45antifascist most of the AFA/RA material will be nicely archived for the future.

EDIT: and the _TAL_ archive too.


----------



## malatesta32 (May 25, 2012)

it was related me by a very reliable L'pool AFA member (B) in a rather amusing manner yonks ago. owens lost a tooth.


----------



## malatesta32 (May 25, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> With my archive, the new Red Action website and the youtube videos being uploaded by 45antifascist most of the AFA/RA material will be nicely archived for the future.


 
i didnt know about the RA site. i was trying to trace a link to the old forum (now gone) to clarify something on morrison - who has just re-emerged as part of that daft national liberal thing. just as harrington departed back to the BNP. coincidence? berks!


----------



## Red Storm (May 25, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> i didnt know about the RA site. i was trying to trace a link to the old forum (now gone) to clarify something on morrison - who has just re-emerged as part of that daft national liberal thing. just as harrington departed back to the BNP. coincidence? berks!


 
Well its not up yet but I believe Love Detective is sorting it out. Sounds like it will have good stuff on it.


----------



## malatesta32 (May 25, 2012)

thats grand. the RA stuff was very well written from what i gathered on the old site.


----------



## Red Storm (May 25, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> thats grand. the RA stuff was very well written from what i gathered on the old site.


 
All the stuff I've got is well written although it would have helped that Spell Checker had been invented 20 years earlier. 

It does depend what you're reading though. I found the early _Red Action's _a tough read in some parts because they're pretty theoretical. 

What makes the Red Action literature good though it that it is brutally candid.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 25, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> All the stuff I've got is well written although it would have helped that Spell Checker had been invented 20 years earlier.
> 
> It does depend what you're reading though. I found the early _Red Action's _a tough read in some parts because they're pretty theoretical.
> 
> What makes the Red Action literature good though it that it is brutally candid.


i always found the main problem with ra that the longer articles were big blocks of text.


----------



## Red Storm (May 25, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> i always found the main problem with ra that the longer articles were big blocks of text.


 
Yeah some articles are daunting. 

I was thinking I'd be able to just whip through the 8 that I have in a couple of hours. Took me all day to read them and take notes.


----------



## malatesta32 (May 25, 2012)

the RA 'reports' of activity were very funny with all that 'intense discussions were had' etc.


----------



## DaveCinzano (May 25, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> 'intense discussions were had'


 
I do hope that they were quorate.


----------



## Deareg (May 25, 2012)

DaveCinzano said:


> I do hope that they were quorate.


All the t's were crossed and the eye's were blackened.


----------



## Joe Reilly (May 25, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> All the stuff I've got is well written although it would have helped that Spell Checker had been invented 20 years earlier.


 
'Smash the facists!' -

illiterates of the world Unite!


----------



## Red Storm (May 25, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> 'Smash the facists!' -
> 
> illiterates of the world Unite!



One of the red action pamphlets spells fascists without the first 's' throughout it. 

However, it does appologise at the beginning for the poor quality haha


----------



## Red Storm (May 26, 2012)

I remember a pamphlet called 'the news the SWP forgot to tell' or something along those lines. 

Was it a Red Action pamphlet? I remember it being. Does anyone have one?


----------



## butchersapron (May 26, 2012)

Do you mean the trotwatch publication(s) from the early 1990s?  If so, that was done by members of the notts anarchist group or notts anarchist news if remember right. There are a couple of people on here who were involved in those groups so might confirm.


----------



## Joe Reilly (May 26, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> I remember a pamphlet called 'the news the SWP forgot to tell' or something along those lines.
> 
> Was it a Red Action pamphlet? I remember it being. Does anyone have one?


 
Well, it actually preceded RA. Drawn by expelled squadists and their political supporters still within the SWP.


----------



## bignose1 (May 26, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> 'Smash the facists!' -
> 
> illiterates of the world Unite!


Smash their faces


----------



## bignose1 (May 26, 2012)

DaveCinzano said:


> I do hope that they were quorate.


At vegan society meetings do they have to be quornate


----------



## bignose1 (May 26, 2012)

past caring said:


> Not sure that it was claimed as a 'stitch up' - more that it was a case of Hann cutting ties/quarantining himself. If JH didn't say anything at the time, it was maybe because it only became apparent later exactly what the game was.....


I didnt know about that...but what pissed me off was the subsequent story that I and by proxy Searchlight steered all this to discredit RA/AFA...its a blatant lie along with the other laughable stuff...world in action mole(leeds)...intelligence thief...i still recall all the bile just after NR came out wtf and which can still be found on the net. Shameful


----------



## malatesta32 (May 26, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> Well, it actually preceded RA. Drawn by expelled squadists and their political supporters still within the SWP.


 
any chance of getting that on line somehow?


----------



## Red Storm (May 27, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> any chance of getting that on line somehow?



If someone has a copy and can't put it online, I'd be happy to do it if they'd send it me.


----------



## krink (May 28, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> is that gary mitchell at the end with the bloody face looking a tad upset?


 

Yes that's Mitch and his pal Craig 'Bondy' Bond is also in the footage when he gets knocked on his arse - you can't clearly see it on the youtube version but on telly you could. It's just when the guy with the specs is backing up a bit towards that low wall, Bondy sneaks in and lines up a punch when this little dark haired afa lad pops up and knocks Bondy down with one punch to his thick head.

There's a picture of Bondy on his arse following the punch earlier in this thread - it's the scan of an article in Select magazine. Bondy the master race warrior on his arse with his tatty carrier bag clutched in his hand. I've heard he's given it all up but I've not heard it from HIM yet.


----------



## Joe Reilly (May 28, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> I didnt know about that...but what pissed me off was the subsequent story that I and by proxy Searchlight steered all this to discredit RA/AFA...its a blatant lie along with the other laughable stuff...world in action mole(leeds)...intelligence thief...i still recall all the bile just after NR came out wtf and which can still be found on the net. Shameful.


 
And if it falls to you to start a fight to cut out the cancer of bent and twisted journalism in our country with the simple sword of truth and the trusty shield of British fair play, so be it. You are ready for the fight. The fight against falsehood and those who peddle it?


----------



## malatesta32 (May 28, 2012)

bollocks, i wanna see that on video! mitchell is in the white noise book by silver et al. ugly little scrote. where is he from? is he still about?


----------



## malatesta32 (May 28, 2012)

and there he is courtesy of red storm!
http://antifascistarchive.com/2012/02/01/battle-of-waterloo/#jp-carousel-135


----------



## bignose1 (May 28, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> bollocks, i wanna see that on video! mitchell is in the white noise book by silver et al. ugly little scrote. where is he from? is he still about?


 Steves a luverly lad leave him alone


----------



## malatesta32 (May 28, 2012)

i was hoping it was mitchell i was referring to!


----------



## bignose1 (May 28, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> And if it falls to you to start a fight to cut out the cancer of bent and twisted journalism in our country with the simple sword of truth and the trusty shield of British fair play, so be it. You are ready for the fight. The fight against falsehood and those who peddle it?


 Whaaaaaaaaaat the fuck!!


----------



## Pickman's model (May 28, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> And if it falls to you to start a fight to cut out the cancer of bent and twisted journalism in our country with the simple sword of truth and the trusty shield of British fair play, so be it. You are ready for the fight. The fight against falsehood and those who peddle it?


----------



## krink (May 28, 2012)

mitch and bondy are from sunderland. no idea where mitch is bondy is still around sunderland seen at a few punk gigs. he's on fb and it looks like he has no links to fash anymore as far as i can see but dropping out isn't the same as renouncing so....


----------



## malatesta32 (May 28, 2012)

im sure they just get fed up of being battered, humiliated and socially ostracised. as we have said before, fascists are psychotic if they think genocide is excusable. why would anyone want to hang out with someone like that? collins rightly identifies the far right as a drinking club for outcasts.


----------



## Joe Reilly (May 28, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


>


 
The quote (allowing for a slight paraphrase) is surely a famous one and the allegory is clear enough - so what is it you are having difficulty with?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 28, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> The quote (allowing for a slight paraphrase) is surely a famous one and the allegory is clear enough - so what is it you are having difficulty with?


i was somewhat surprised you were making bignose1 out to be a liar and a perjurer and wondered why you felt this was the case.


----------



## Red Storm (May 28, 2012)

http://antifascistarchive.com/2012/05/28/gordon-gee-intelligence-gathering/

The Gordon Gee audio ^^^^


----------



## bignose1 (May 29, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> The quote (allowing for a slight paraphrase) is surely a famous one and the allegory is clear enough - so what is it you are having difficulty with?


 Heres my quote 'Fuck off you weird twat'


----------



## TopCat (May 29, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> i was somewhat surprised you were making bignose1 out to be a liar and a perjurer and wondered why you felt this was the case.


May I hazard a guess that this is because "bignose1" was/is a Searchlight asset with all that entails?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 29, 2012)

TopCat said:


> May I hazard a guess that this is because "bignose1" was/is a Searchlight asset with all that entails?


which would explain all


----------



## bignose1 (May 29, 2012)

TopCat said:


> May I hazard a guess that this is because "bignose1" was/is a Searchlight asset with all that entails?


 The mutual O'Shea cock sucking circus comes to town again....


----------



## bignose1 (May 29, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> which would explain all


 Whats a Searchlight asset/what does it entail...then tell me what youve done thats so fucking memorable and important...


----------



## Pickman's model (May 29, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Whats a Searchlight asset/what does it entail...then tell me what youve done thats so fucking memorable and important...


yes. the last person i'd trust with anything memorable or important that i'd done would be someone with an affiliation to searchlight. which should answer both parts of your post.


----------



## laptop (May 29, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Whats a Searchlight asset/what does it entail...


 
I think it's something to do with an entirely successful attempt to sow suspicion and hatred between physical-force anti-fascism and anyone with contacts within the system, because had there been an alliance that would have annoyed the state quite a bit.


----------



## laptop (May 29, 2012)

*T*(frothing insult from you-know-who) - 2 hours and counting...


----------



## TopCat (May 29, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> The mutual O'Shea cock sucking circus comes to town again....


Myself and GOS are hardly friends. However I am proud to have been involved in a very small way with himself and other comrades from RA and AFA. Cunts like yourself however, who put themselves across as progressive whilst following a reactionary and essentially right wing agenda dictated by Searchlight, well your a cunt. Your attempts to use this thread to try and rehabilitate your reputation are pretty piss poor but thankfully transparent.


----------



## articul8 (May 29, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> At vegan society meetings do they have to be quornate


(pedantry alert) technically quorn isn't vegan because its ingredients include egg white


----------



## bignose1 (May 29, 2012)

articul8 said:


> (pedantry alert) technically quorn isn't vegan because its ingredients include egg white


 OK excuse my error....


----------



## bignose1 (May 29, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> yes. the last person i'd trust with anything memorable or important that i'd done would be someone with an affiliation to searchlight. which should answer both parts of your post.


 Affiliation to Searchlight...my my Red Action had affilations to them infact weekly meetings at one point...I went my own way pretty much in 94 because certain things didnt rest well but I didnt cunt them off. You still live in a blinkered world when it comes to all this shite and when you fall in line with O'Shea and co on a regular a basis then it really does sound like sour grapes. Its a shame your too good not to share your achievements...which I reckon count for fuck all...so dont hide behind the cute rhetoric.


----------



## bignose1 (May 29, 2012)

TopCat said:


> Myself and GOS are hardly friends. However I am proud to have been involved in a very small way with himself and other comrades from RA and AFA. Cunts like yourself however, who put themselves across as progressive whilst following a reactionary and essentially right wing agenda dictated by Searchlight, well your a cunt. Your attempts to use this thread to try and rehabilitate your reputation are pretty piss poor but thankfully transparent.


Get to fuck arsehole you know fuck all you wanker...I put myself as progressive..what are you you stupid prick. I dont need to rehabilitate myself to shitheads like you. Fuck off toss pot.


----------



## bignose1 (May 29, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Get to fuck arsehole you know fuck all you wanker...I put myself as progressive..what are you you stupid prick. I dont need to rehabilitate myself to shitheads like you. Fuck off toss pot.


 And a fanny


----------



## bignose1 (May 29, 2012)

laptop said:


> I think it's something to do with an entirely successful attempt to sow suspicion and hatred between physical-force anti-fascism and anyone with contacts within the system, because had there been an alliance that would have annoyed the state quite a bit.


 Mmmmmmmmmm totally agree...you think I went with all that bollox....why'dya think I went native in 94'


----------



## bignose1 (May 29, 2012)

laptop said:


> *T*(frothing insult from you-know-who) - 2 hours and counting...


 ???


----------



## Pickman's model (May 29, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Affiliation to Searchlight...my my Red Action had affilations to them infact weekly meetings at one point...I went my own way pretty much in 94 because certain things didnt rest well but I didnt cunt them off. You still live in a blinkered world when it comes to all this shite and when you fall in line with O'Shea and co on a regular a basis then it really does sound like sour grapes. Its a shame your too good not to share your achievements...which I reckon count for fuck all...so dont hide behind the cute rhetoric.


i've pointed out to you before that, like topcat, i'm not joe reilly's greatest fan. as for achievements, i think searchlight's greatest achievement was when its former editor popped his clogs on the phone to special branch.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 29, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Get to fuck arsehole you know fuck all you wanker...I put myself as progressive..what are you you stupid prick. I dont need to rehabilitate myself to shitheads like you. Fuck off toss pot.


touchy touchy


----------



## DaveCinzano (May 29, 2012)

You missed out 





> fanny


----------



## Pickman's model (May 29, 2012)

DaveCinzano said:


> You missed out


you're quite right. i wanted to highlight the fact that bignose1 hasn't worked out how to use the edit function yet.


----------



## bignose1 (May 29, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> i've pointed out to you before that, like topcat, i'm not joe reilly's greatest fan. as for achievements, i think searchlight's greatest achievement was when its former editor popped his clogs on the phone to special branch.


 You give true meaning to the term tosser


----------



## bignose1 (May 29, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> you're quite right. i wanted to highlight the fact that bignose1 hasn't worked out how to use the edit function yet.


 Yeah of course.....


----------



## bignose1 (May 29, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Yeah of course.....


 ....Knobhead


----------



## audiotech (May 29, 2012)

.....and relax.


----------



## Joe Reilly (May 29, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> which would explain all


 

Funnily enough the Searchlight link wasn't what I was getting at. It is the sheer brass-ballness of it all, and the Jonathan Aitken type narcissism that goes with it. Here is a guy who implies others are routinely lying, who presents himself as the innocent victim of all sorts of perfidious villiany.

Ok, so being paranoid dosen't mean they aren't out to get you right?  

Yet, at the same time when challenged on this thread by the actual organiser of 'The Squad' as to the veracity of the opening scene in _No Retreat_ (where he mistakenly gets on the NF coach, supposedly) he adopts a no comment, before goinf entirely mute and slinking back into the foliage until the thread moves on.

Which is not simply a contrast with the normal modus operandi when dealing with any questioning as to his track record or motives of which we have recent evidence but confirms the suspicions of the people who worked closest with him that the whole thing is a lie, a made up story, a product of his imagination.

Now, if in the aftermath he disappered completely, or died of embarassment ok.

But no. He then comes back when he believes the dust has settled and begins to repeat the same process, of injured 'more to be pitied than scolded' innocence, piecemean rebuttal and finger-pointing all over again.

It's bring to mind another famous libel trial where an Eastenders actress sued the Sun for alleging she was up to no good in a layby. Now try to imagine Gillian Taylforth still insisting to George Carmen that she finds the who idea of oral sex utterly repugnant _after_ the photo of her lavisciously slurping on a large greasy saveloy has been presented in evidence, and you sort of get where Tlilzey is placed in the lexicon of denial. 

Truth be told, the authors of No Retreat were both relatively minor figures in wider scheme of things, which is source of much of the tension, who decided (or were prompted) to cash in on the courage,commitment and yes, notoriety of others (and I'm not just talking about the author's of BTF here) who fought longer and harder to better effect, but who preferred to remain anonymous and for the most part return to a private life.

Understandably they are despised by many former colleagues who liken them to a couple of circus clowns rolling up the carpet after the acrobats performance and claiming the applause for themselves.

Why did they do it? It's a moot point but I'm sure Jonathan Aitken would be able to explain.


----------



## bignose1 (May 29, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> Funnily enough the Searchlight link wasn't what I was getting at. It is the sheer brass-ballness of it all, and the Jonathan Aitken type narcissism that goes with it. Here is a guy who implies others are routinely lying, who presents himself as the innocent victim of all sorts of perfidious villiany.
> 
> Ok, so being paranoid dosen't mean they aren't out to get you right?
> 
> ...


You know what O'Shea I think your jealous of me...but you do confirm to me what an utter tosser you are. Bitter and deluded. What do you want a complete statement or a confession. I think you should think more closely when challenging other peoples track record. My account is as accurate as can be maybe you should go back and ask JP...think he may find that Ive gone nowhere matey. You sound like O Hara, by dissing me you put yourself up there when quite honestly all youve been doing for 20 odd years is living on a 12 year anti fascist career befor embarking on a miniscule project which sounds more like a neighbourhood watch scheme than anything worthwhile. I dont consider myself a major figure but you obviously do. What do you think Ive been doing since 1994. Doing more in manchester than protesting about mobile phone masts. I dont care if you despise me..not in the slightest. You hid behind the notoriety of others...the only clowns in town mate are you and your gang. Irrelevant and equally despised.


----------



## articul8 (May 29, 2012)

<reaches for the popcorn>


----------



## Citizen66 (May 29, 2012)

And now time for an interlude.


----------



## The39thStep (May 29, 2012)

Disappointing really


----------



## TopCat (May 30, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> Disappointing really


But hardly surprising...


----------



## bignose1 (May 30, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> Disappointing really


First of all, congrats for the CL...I mean it!! Regards all this shite well your right it is dissapointing and I fall into it just as bad. It does come across like playground stuff ...but there are deeper issues here...the agenda they follow is disturbing and malevolent. They are only too willing to write off anyone elses contribution..they feel they have ownership of the fucking thing. If I was to outline chronologically what Ive done in the 'movement' both as an active street anti fascist..intelligence gatherer...community worker...trade union steward some of it simoultaneous then I would line up my track record against them any time. But that would belike whose got the biggest dick and quite honestly I dont feel I ought to. If you go back to 03 when NR came out you will be able to read some of the most disgusting pesonal attacks on myself and Dave. hardly suprising that OShea continues in that vein every so often when it goes quiet. These are the people who employed gangsters to lean on others..Im just reminded of ginger johns contribution to the debate. The issue is...they dont want anyone else taking the shine off their fucking lamp. And if anyones looking like they may be doing then they will launch personal attacks or reach for the gangsters to lean on people. As far as Im concerned they had their day up to early 90's then dissapeared from the fight..well done ..write a book and get on with some other project. But no they wheel out the old Searchlight shite..yawn..they dont want to listen and I dont want to have to explain myself so take it mate that things are unlikely to change and Ill have to settle for a 3 incher as my lot.


----------



## TopCat (May 30, 2012)

Do some dick swinging and tell us all about your relationship with Searchlight then bignose?


----------



## bignose1 (May 30, 2012)

TopCat said:


> Do some dick swinging and tell us all about your relationship with Searchlight then bignose?


 First of all who are you? Secondly tell me of your relationship to Gary O'Shea RA/AFA. Then wel'l dick swing baby!!


----------



## TopCat (May 30, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> First of all who are you? Secondly tell me of your relationship to Gary O'Shea RA/AFA. Then wel'l dick swing baby!!


What are you after? More information for Searchlights files? Special branch files?


----------



## bignose1 (May 30, 2012)

TopCat said:


> What are you after? More information for Searchlights files? Special branch files?


 Yeah thats right gimme info gimme everything you have on everyone..good rates of pay for the right stuff. Ha ha Fuck off.


----------



## bignose1 (May 30, 2012)

The other thing is mate branding people as Special branch is very dangerous talk. Give me your evidence. If not i wont tell people your a paedo


----------



## TopCat (May 30, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> The other thing is mate branding people as Special branch is very dangerous talk. Give me your evidence. If not i wont tell people your a paedo


Searchlight =Special Branch. Your in bed with one, you serve the agenda of the other.


----------



## bignose1 (May 30, 2012)

TopCat said:


> Searchlight =Special Branch. Your in bed with one, you serve the agenda of the other.


Listen not that I have to explain to you. I left Searchlight in 94 for reasons that are no big secret. I didnt speak to Gerry Gable for 17 years. I was not inner circle any more after that or any circle for that matter but through Unison and a couple of instances where my personal security was at risk had some dealings with the current HnH people at Searchlight before the split. You on the other hand do not explain anything, a faceless arse licker. Its far too easy for the likes of you to rubbish people when you have no credibilty of your own to defend. I suggest you move on with your life mate and stop your obsession with me. xxxx


----------



## TopCat (May 30, 2012)

I'm not obsessed with you _at all_.
I do however view_ any_ involvement with Searchlight very dimly indeed. If you re read this rather long thread you can see it's a continual theme of mine. You will see me bringing up the actions of RA on this very thread with regard to their relationship with Searchlight and my perceived view that they were less than supportive to Class war when Searchlight smeared the latter. Myself and JR had quite a debate about it. I was rather reassured by JR and the action of RA with regard to that matter.

You however seem rather proud of your involvement with Searchlight. Certainly you have used many tactics to avoid actually saying what you got up to with SL and the implications of that involvement. The bluster and the smears and the abuse are _very very telling_.


----------



## bignose1 (May 30, 2012)

TopCat said:


> I'm not obsessed with you _at all_.
> I do however view_ any_ involvement with Searchlight very dimly indeed. If you re read this rather long thread you can see it's a continual theme of mine. You will see me bringing up the actions of RA on this very thread with regard to their relationship with Searchlight and my perceived view that they were less than supportive to Class war when Searchlight smeared the latter. Myself and JR had quite a debate about it. I was rather reassured by JR and the action of RA with regard to that matter.
> 
> You however seem rather proud of your involvement with Searchlight. Certainly you have used many tactics to avoid actually saying what you got up to with SL and the implications of that involvement. The bluster and the smears and the abuse are _very very telling_.


Bluster and smears please Top Cat you are being silly...but who is SL. If you view every one who had dealings with Searchlight dimly then that would involve a lot of people.


----------



## bignose1 (May 30, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Bluster and smears please Top Cat you are being silly...but who is SL. If you view every one who had dealings with Searchlight dimly then that would involve a lot of people.


Sorry is SL searchlight. What I got up to..some of that is not for publication. I think you can understand that surely. Some is out in the open and not a big secret. But if you think I worked to any agenda to undermine the movement your fucking wrong and I feel you need to think about what motivates your obsession. I moved on in 94. Im not going into a confessional with you. Your not identifying yourself so get real. I first thought you were the property developer from Hatfield but clearly not now. So it aint going to happen. Im not answerable to you, Gable, Collins, Lowles or any other fucker you want to name. So please leave this thread or put yourself on offer if youve got any guts yourself.


----------



## Joe Reilly (May 30, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> What do you want a complete statement or a confession.


 
Well, if you wouldn't mind...


----------



## audiotech (May 30, 2012)

IMHO, everything I've read about GO's suggests he's a good egg.

Just saying like.


----------



## bignose1 (May 30, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> Well, if you wouldn't mind...


Fuck you....after you matey


----------



## bignose1 (May 30, 2012)

audiotech said:


> IMHO, everything I've read about GO's suggests he's a good egg.
> 
> Just saying like.


Brown nosing extravanganza...just saying like


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 30, 2012)

Is this all really necessary? Can't it be sorted via PM or something?


----------



## bignose1 (May 30, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> Is this all really necessary? Can't it be sorted via PM or something?


Spiney. I wish it could. But theyre obsessed...they cant move on or accept its not there time now. And apart from Oshea they are anonimous. Real internet warriors and faceless fuckers...


----------



## Citizen66 (May 30, 2012)

I think if people have some specific evidence that bignose has personally been collaborating with special branch then they should put their dicks on the table. I don't think involvement with searchlight is proof in itself, tbh. I'm not a fan of searchlight but that doesn't mean I think absolutely everyone who has ever been involved with them are ropey.


----------



## bamalama (May 30, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Spiney. I wish it could. But theyre obsessed...they cant move on or accept its not there time now.


 Come on now,the digs have been flying both ways every time this comes up.I don't think you wear "victim" well mate.Spineys right though,pms is a better way to go .As a matter of fact i came accross this forum while researching beating the facsists,the german one(i didn't know there was an afa one),after reading another forum about it where it all got really slanderous and messy...


----------



## bignose1 (May 30, 2012)

bamalama said:


> Come on now,the digs have been flying both ways every time this comes up.I don't think you wear "victim" well mate.Spineys right though,pms is a better way to go .As a matter of fact i came accross this forum while researching beating the facsists,the german one(i didn't know there was an afa one),after reading another forum about it where it all got really slanderous and messy...


Bam it all started when we had the audacity to write a book recollecting some anti fascist activities we were involved in....see the Red Action  forum site if you still can which went a long way towards how it is now.


----------



## bamalama (May 30, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Bam it all started when we had the audacity to write a book recollecting some anti fascist activities we were involved in....see the Red Action forum site if you still can which went a long way towards how it is now.


 Aye i know, i read both books shortly after their publication.I know from that what some of the arguements are about.All i'm saying is that i'd imagine you're all big and ugly enough to get it sorted,somehow,face to face or by pm...i don't see any victims here.By the way i think both books are well worth a read,and mainstream media exposure of one or the other can't be a bad thing imo


----------



## Citizen66 (May 30, 2012)

Are either books ever going to come out in electronic form? I've bought them both in paperback but they've now been lost or whatever as I'm here, there and everywhere and always lose books.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 30, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> Are either books ever going to come out in electronic form? I've bought them both in paperback but they've now been lost or whatever as I'm here, there and everywhere and always lose books.


I do hope they remaim available only in the print edition so you have to buy more


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 30, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> http://antifascistarchive.com/2012/05/28/gordon-gee-intelligence-gathering/
> 
> The Gordon Gee audio ^^^^


 
That second recording - starts out putting on a cockney accent then a few minutes into it completely forgets about it and the daft fash cunt doesn't even get suspicious


----------



## Citizen66 (May 30, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> I do hope they remaim available only in the print edition so you have to buy more


 
I'd happily pay for them in electronic format. I don't torrent stuff like books and apps by small devs and independent publishers. Seems a cunty thing to do.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 30, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> I'd happily pay for them in electronic format. I don't torrent stuff like books and apps by small devs and independent publishers. Seems a cunty thing to do.


Beating the fash ain't coming out as an ebook in the foreseeable. Hell, you can't even pay by card in freedom


----------



## Citizen66 (May 30, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> Beating the fash ain't coming out as an ebook in the foreseeable. Hell, you can't even pay by card in freedom


 
Tell me about it.  You're forced to use the cash machine on Whitechapel High st and then inevitably spend the change in the White Hart.


----------



## Joe Reilly (May 30, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> Is this all really necessary? Can't it be sorted via PM or something?


 
I suppose what it comes down to is whether you regard No Retreat, penned by Dave Hann and Steve Tilzey as a more or less truthful political record of not insignificant political events, or a novel? It was suggested on here by former colleagues that the opening scene in the book, with regard to Tilzey getting on an NF coach instead of a Man Utd one by mistake, did not happen, or at least did not happen to Tilzey.

Which inevitably leads to all sorts of questions about the honesty of the authors and their political motivation for writing the book in the first place.

Historically there have been two types of anti-fascism. One seeks to protect the centre from the far-right, the other to displace the far-right the better to carry the fight against the political centre. One is represented by the Searchlight brand while AFA represents the latter. No Retreat manages to conflate the two and concludes (and tellingly in the author's promotion of the book) accuses radical anti-fascism of betraying the entire movement out of a mixture of narrow political gain and physical cowardice.

As I said, it just depends on whether this is ultimately resolved, and whether you consider it to be politically important or not?

In my view Bignose has been patrolling the thread for 18 months in order to ensure that it isn't resolved. Simple as that.


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 30, 2012)

To be honest I always take books like that with a pinch of salt anyway. But some of the accusations on this thread appear to go a bit further than what you've outlined there - the criticisms in the above post could be directed at someone who's made a naive mistake and is now trying to save face, whereas some of the accusations would paint him as more sinister than that.

I just think you can make those political points without making it personal. I've got a lot of respect for what you - all of you - did back then and it's just a bit sad to see this 20 years later.


----------



## audiotech (May 30, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Brown nosing extravanganza...just saying like


 
I said in an earlier post that I enjoyed your talk posted elsewhere. No mention of a "Brown nosing extravanganza" then.

No need to take your spat out on me.


----------



## Delroy Booth (May 30, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> I just think you can make those political points without making it personal. I've got a lot of respect for what you - all of you - did back then and *it's just a bit sad to see this 20 years later.*


 
yeah, bit of an understatement that.


----------



## bignose1 (May 30, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> I suppose what it comes down to is whether you regard No Retreat, penned by Dave Hann and Steve Tilzey as a more or less truthful political record of not insignificant political events, or a novel? It was suggested on here by former colleagues that the opening scene in the book, with regard to Tilzey getting on an NF coach instead of a Man Utd one by mistake, did not happen, or at least did not happen to Tilzey.
> 
> Which inevitably leads to all sorts of questions about the honesty of the authors and their political motivation for writing the book in the first place.
> 
> ...


You talk utter shite.... but Im out of here for a while.....so you carry on Gary....xxxx


----------



## bignose1 (May 30, 2012)

audiotech said:


> I said in an earlier post that I enjoyed your talk posted elsewhere. No mention of a "Brown nosing extravanganza" then.
> 
> No need to take your spat out on me.


Sorry audiotech....I sometimes forget stuff from previous and thought it was just another anti bignose day. Apologies your right.


----------



## bignose1 (May 30, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> That second recording - starts out putting on a cockney accent then a few minutes into it completely forgets about it and the daft fash cunt doesn't even get suspicious


 
Im shit at accents and your right it didnt seem to matter.....silly man


----------



## bignose1 (May 30, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> I'd happily pay for them in electronic format. I don't torrent stuff like books and apps by small devs and independent publishers. Seems a cunty thing to do.


No Retreat is on kindle


----------



## Citizen66 (May 30, 2012)

ooh, will buy again. Entertaining read.


----------



## audiotech (May 30, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Sorry audiotech....I sometimes forget stuff from previous and thought it was just another anti bignose day. Apologies your right.


 
No problem.


----------



## Joe Reilly (May 30, 2012)

bamalama said:


> Come on now,the digs have been flying both ways every time this comes up.I don't think you wear "victim" well mate.Spineys right though,pms is a better way to go .As a matter of fact i came accross this forum while researching beating the facsists,the german one(i didn't know there was an afa one),after reading another forum about it where it all got really slanderous and messy...


Well 'messy' is one way of looking at it. The indymedia thread was in fact part of a determined attempt by blackening the name of the author's ('pervert, rapist, paedo') to intimidate the Freedom Press collective in pulling out of the production. There were numerous phone calls, letters and emails along similar lines. Both Tilzey and Matthew Collins were known to be involved.

Had it been say any small apolitical publishing house they would have folded.In point of fact after months of the treatment FP actually nearly buckled themselves. The final vote to publish was won by just a single vote 5-4. People were told to bring their 'stab vests' for the launch and so forth. Needless to say no one showed up on the day. Immediately after publication FP/authors began to recieve threatning letters from libel lawyers Carter Ruck.

Just this week, for their temerity in defying Searchlight, FP have been forced to shell out a £4,000 to, yes, (the alternative would likely be bankruptcy) you guessed it a Searchlight photographer for using photographs FP picked from the AFA portfolio with a supporting letter from, yes, comrade Gerry Gable stating that even AFA were not authorised to use them. So this was used to prove an 'aggravating factor' meaning even more money from FP. And so it goes on.


You still think we are all on the same side really and it might all be settled by an exchange of pm's?


----------



## bamalama (May 30, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> Well 'messy' is one way of looking at it. The indymedia thread was in fact part of a determined attempt by blackening the name of the author's ('pervert, rapist, paedo') to intimidate the Freedom Press collective in pulling out of the production. There were numerous phone calls, letters and emails along similar lines. Both Tilzey and Matthew Collins were known to be involved.
> 
> Had it been say any small apolitical publishing house they would have folded.In point of fact after months of the treatment FP actually nearly buckled themselves. The final vote to publish was won by just a single vote 5-4. People were told to bring their 'stab vests' for the launch and so forth. Needless to say no one showed up on the day. Immediately after publication FP/authors began to recieve threatning letters from libel lawyers Carter Ruck.
> 
> ...


 I didn't want to mention the other forum because it was a fucking disgrace what was said about individuals there.Frankly if those things were said about me or those i care about i'd want blood...Not that what i think matters to the individuals concerned,no i don't think it could be settled by pms,but i don't think it's gonna get settled here either...I've never been a fan of searchlight, i remember that prick ray hill and his dodgy writings on the bloody sunday(i think) demos.


----------



## bignose1 (May 30, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> Well 'messy' is one way of looking at it. The indymedia thread was in fact part of a determined attempt by blackening the name of the author's ('pervert, rapist, paedo') to intimidate the Freedom Press collective in pulling out of the production. There were numerous phone calls, letters and emails along similar lines. Both Tilzey and Matthew Collins were known to be involved.
> 
> Had it been say any small apolitical publishing house they would have folded.In point of fact after months of the treatment FP actually nearly buckled themselves. The final vote to publish was won by just a single vote 5-4. People were told to bring their 'stab vests' for the launch and so forth. Needless to say no one showed up on the day. Immediately after publication FP/authors began to recieve threatning letters from libel lawyers Carter Ruck.
> 
> ...


IM back...so Gary evidence please ....put up or shut up.  I think your grossly exaggerating infact making it all up. Do you think your behaviour leading up to and following NR publication was of the highest quality.  Listen for the last fucking time you moron Ive nothing to do with what GG is doing nor HnH or FP... believe me I couldnt care about it your fucking book...good luck to you I think your problem is we beat you to it and your fucking ego cant take it.  I do remember the death threats Dave recieved from your lot, very similar to how you used MCr gangland figures to intimidate opposition and I dont mean fash ie Leeds AFA. Your not listening when I say I left Searchlight in 94...you claimed NR was a Searchlight spoiler..you were wrong matey. As far as this shites going and I agree no PM ping pong will assist why dont we both fuck off and leave it up to who the fuck wants it. You chose to start the insults and lies and now you cant resist trying the sympathy vote. Boo fucking hoo.


----------



## Nigel (May 30, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> I'd happily pay for them in electronic format. I don't torrent stuff like books and apps by small devs and independent publishers. Seems a cunty thing to do.


 No Retreat is on Kindle and some bizzare fantasy called Dead Paki Walking. Also samples
Stuart Christie was talking on Facebook about putting Anarcho books online but I can't see Beating The Fascists being one of these.
However AFA/IWCA sell them at their socials for £5.00 so its hardly expensive!
http://www.amazon.co.uk/No-Retreat-...?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1338415581&sr=1-1

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Dead-Paki-W...?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1338416007&sr=1-1

http://www.facebook.com/#!/skateraw


----------



## Joe Reilly (May 30, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> To be honest I always take books like that with a pinch of salt anyway. But some of the accusations on this thread appear to go a bit further than what you've outlined there - the criticisms in the above post could be directed at someone who's made a naive mistake and is now trying to save face, whereas some of the accusations would paint him as more sinister than that.
> 
> I just think you can make those political points without making it personal. I've got a lot of respect for what you - all of you - did back then and it's just a bit sad to see this 20 years later.


 
Tilzey was never actually in AFA as such. He quit street work before AFA was set up. And naive he a'int. He is though both weak and viscious in about equal measure. And while for a time we might have had an enemy in common, we were, as should  be fully evident, never really on the same side.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 30, 2012)

Nigel said:


> No Retreat is on Kindle and some bizzare fantasy called Dead Paki Walking. Also samples
> Stuart Christie was talking on Facebook about putting Anarcho books online but I can't see Beating The Fascists being one of these.
> However AFA/IWCA sell them at their socials for £5.00 so its hardly expensive!
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/No-Retreat-...?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1338415581&sr=1-1
> ...


i got that dead paki walking but andi ali (iirc) who wrote it comes across as something of a loon. a very confused loon too, imo


----------



## Joe Reilly (May 30, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> IM back...so Gary evidence please ....put up or shut up. I think your grossly exaggerating infact making it all up. Do you think your behaviour leading up to and following NR publication was of the highest quality. Listen for the last fucking time you moron Ive nothing to do with what GG is doing nor HnH or FP... believe me I couldnt care about it your fucking book...good luck to you I think your problem is we beat you to it and your fucking ego cant take it. I do remember the death threats Dave recieved from your lot, very similar to how you used MCr gangland figures to intimidate opposition and I dont mean fash ie Leeds AFA. Your not listening when I say I left Searchlight in 94...you claimed NR was a Searchlight spoiler..you were wrong matey. As far as this shites going and I agree no PM ping pong will assist why dont we both fuck off and leave it up to who the fuck wants it. You chose to start the insults and lies and now you cant resist trying the sympathy vote. Boo fucking hoo.


 
Projection, projection, projection.


----------



## love detective (May 30, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> Immediately after publication FP/authors began to recieve threatning letters from libel lawyers Carter Ruck.


 
Before publication!

(with the aim of ensuring there was no publication)


----------



## Nigel (May 31, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> i got that dead paki walking but andi ali (iirc) who wrote it comes across as something of a loon. a very confused loon too, imo


 The bit about being invited up the Shankhill Road and having  loyalist para militaries shooting over his head shouting 'No Surrender' whilst saying that they are not racist(can be found in sample) sort of gives it away a bit yes.


----------



## bignose1 (May 31, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> Tilzey was never actually in AFA as such. He quit street work before AFA was set up. And naive he a'int. He is though both weak and viscious in about equal measure. And while for a time we might have had an enemy in common, we were, as should be fully evident, never really on the same side.


I was the Manchester intelligence officer for AFA you twat . I quit street work before AFA was set up you know is a blatant lie. I probably quit street work after you lot threw the towel in to set up your neighbourhood watch. Weak and vicious what the fuck are you rambling on about. I do know thatb people found you an extremely unpleasant person who threatened more of your own side to get your way than at times the fash. But it wont work on me O'Shame because I get your sad game and its your ego...you just cant fucking take it...your gang is on the wane...you talk a load of bollox which is borderline fascist and your time has gone. Your no longer relevant...take up a hobby...I go fishing... And change your medication because it certainly is fucking with your head.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 31, 2012)

Anyone who's up in the middle of the night & thinks of posting on this thread should go back to sleep till a decent hour


----------



## bignose1 (May 31, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> Anyone who's up in the middle of the night & thinks of posting on this thread should go back to sleep till a decent hour


 Pickmans Im on holiday this week and was up ready to go fishing with my pals at 5am. Usual time for anglers.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 31, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Pickmans Im on holiday this week and was up ready to go fishing with my pals at 5am. Usual time for anglers.


Catch anything?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 31, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Pickmans Im on holiday this week and was up ready to go fishing with my pals at 5am. Usual time for anglers.


Catch anything?


----------



## Citizen66 (May 31, 2012)

Only the flu.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 31, 2012)

...


----------



## Pickman's model (May 31, 2012)

...


----------



## Citizen66 (May 31, 2012)

Caught it the first time, thanks.


----------



## bignose1 (May 31, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> Only the flu.


 So far its been great had 2 chubb and several dace. After the barbel though...were on the Severn near Llangollen. Just having a brew...


----------



## bignose1 (May 31, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> So far its been great had 2 chubb and several dace. After the barbel though...were on the Severn near Llangollen. Just having a brew...


 What am I talking about were on the River Dee !!!  Were on the Severn tomorrow.


----------



## Red Storm (May 31, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> So far its been great had 2 chubb and several dace. After the barbel though...were on the Severn near Llangollen. Just having a brew...



Watch out for the foxes!


----------



## Pickman's model (May 31, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> So far its been great had 2 chubb and several dace. After the barbel though...were on the Severn near Llangollen. Just having a brew...


bignose1 earlier


----------



## love detective (May 31, 2012)




----------



## bignose1 (May 31, 2012)

love detective said:


>


 I wish


----------



## bignose1 (May 31, 2012)

Will do Redstorm......


----------



## bignose1 (May 31, 2012)

Bagging up nicely...trotting single red maggot on a small balsa chubbing float just over a weir getting nice roach and dace.....putting out a leger rod in a bit with a big chunk of luncheon meat for the barbel. Wont be able to post that as itll get blocked as spam.


----------



## bignose1 (May 31, 2012)

How did that get through....


----------



## Joe Reilly (May 31, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> ... believe me I couldnt care about it your fucking book...good luck to you I think your problem is we beat you to it...


 
Still for someone who dosen't care, threads entitled _'Beating the Fascists'_ seem have an unhealthy attraction for you?
First on Indymedia (500 posts in total - most of them sheer poison, some even under your own name) and now on here?

Also, from someone who vigorously denies that a) you and Hann were unaware an AFA book was in the pipeline and b) No Retreat was not designed to function as 'spoiler', _'we beat you to it'! _sort of says otherwise.


----------



## bamalama (May 31, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> View attachment 19721
> 
> Will do Redstorm......


 That picture's not in Ireland by any chance,landscape looks familiar


----------



## DaveCinzano (May 31, 2012)

bamalama said:


> That picture's not in Ireland by any chance,landscape looks familiar


 
You probably just remember it from its airing on RW


----------



## bamalama (May 31, 2012)

DaveCinzano said:


> You probably just remember it from its airing on RW


 What's RW?


----------



## DaveCinzano (May 31, 2012)




----------



## bamalama (May 31, 2012)

DaveCinzano said:


>


 Ah right,took a minute for the penny to drop there...


----------



## DaveCinzano (May 31, 2012)

Tomorrow I shall be testing you on sudoku.


----------



## Joe Reilly (May 31, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> I was the Manchester intelligence officer for AFA you twat . I quit street work before AFA was set up you know is a blatant lie. I probably quit street work after you lot threw the towel in to set up your neighbourhood watch. Weak and vicious what the fuck are you rambling on about. I do know thatb people found you an extremely unpleasant person who threatened more of your own side to get your way than at times the fash. But it wont work on me O'Shame because I get your sad game and its your ego...you just cant fucking take it...your gang is on the wane...you talk a load of bollox which is borderline fascist and your time has gone. Your no longer relevant...take up a hobby...I go fishing... And change your medication because it certainly is fucking with your head.


 
Even by your own admission (as you remind us seemingly on a daily basis- what _is_ that about btw?) you were still working for Searchlight up to 1994, which of course was also the same year that the BNP threw in the towel.

Prior to that all contact between you and Manc AFA was severed first after the Rochdale arrests, and again, after Hann brought you back in, as a result of the Nolan near fiasco.

So you will tell us won't you, when exactly were you working for AFA - in an _exclusive capacity_? 

As for the rest of, a Freudian delight. As ever.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 31, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> View attachment 19721
> 
> Will do Redstorm......


is that dog trying to drown itself?


----------



## bamalama (May 31, 2012)

DaveCinzano said:


> Tomorrow I shall be testing you on sudoku.


 Noooooooo...


----------



## DaveCinzano (May 31, 2012)

It's okay, it's neo-nazi sudoku so all the possible answers are either 18 or 88.


----------



## TopCat (May 31, 2012)

bamalama said:


> Ah right,took a minute for the penny to drop there...


me too!


----------



## Pickman's model (May 31, 2012)

DaveCinzano said:


> It's okay, it's neo-nazi sudoku so all the possible answers are either 18 or 88.


i hadn't realised the fash were THAT thick.


----------



## DaveCinzano (May 31, 2012)




----------



## bignose1 (May 31, 2012)

bamalama said:


> That picture's not in Ireland by any chance,landscape looks familiar


 Yeah it was in Cavan on Lough Tallagh


----------



## bignose1 (May 31, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> Even by your own admission (as you remind us seemingly on a daily basis- what _is_ that about btw?) you were still working for Searchlight up to 1994, which of course was also the same year that the BNP threw in the towel.
> 
> Prior to that all contact between you and Manc AFA was severed first after the Rochdale arrests, and again, after Hann brought you back in, as a result of the Nolan near fiasco.
> 
> ...


 The only fiasco to do with Nolan was the sledgehammer you brought in to crack a nut and fuck up what could have been a potential intelligence benefit and also to save the fellahs family from a very unpleasant fate. It was me who done the leg work on that only for your lot to typically fuck it up.


----------



## bamalama (May 31, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Yeah it was in Cavan on Lough Tallagh


 Fucking hell i can't believe i spotted that,got family in cyavan and i think we've been canoeing/kayaking on that lough...i'm quite pleased with meself.


----------



## bignose1 (May 31, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> Still for someone who dosen't care, threads entitled _'Beating the Fascists'_ seem have an unhealthy attraction for you?
> First on Indymedia (500 posts in total - most of them sheer poison, some even under your own name) and now on here?
> 
> Also, from someone who vigorously denies that a) you and Hann were unaware an AFA book was in the pipeline and b) No Retreat was not designed to function as 'spoiler', _'we beat you to it'! _sort of says otherwise.


 Sheer poison so you forget your own fucking Red Action forum. More than 500 posts of utter shite inspired by you under whatever names it was still mainly your outfit..As far as an AFA book was in the pipeline..so what I had an idea in 1986 and had most of my stuff ready. Why should I worry about what you had in the piepeline...Im not answereable to you. Beating you to it is your main beef and you cant cope with it. Move on and get a hobby.


----------



## bignose1 (May 31, 2012)

bamalama said:


> Fucking hell i can't believe i spotted that,got family in cyavan and i think we've been canoeing/kayaking on that lough...i'm quite pleased with meself.


 Nice one bam...the land/fields near to where we fish is owned by the O'Dowds...they own the big caff in Killashandra (come out yea black & tans) on the high street....wait for it....opposite the Shamrock pub ffs.


----------



## bignose1 (May 31, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> Well 'messy' is one way of looking at it. The indymedia thread was in fact part of a determined attempt by blackening the name of the author's ('pervert, rapist, paedo') to intimidate the Freedom Press collective in pulling out of the production. There were numerous phone calls, letters and emails along similar lines. Both Tilzey and Matthew Collins were known to be involved.
> 
> Had it been say any small apolitical publishing house they would have folded.In point of fact after months of the treatment FP actually nearly buckled themselves. The final vote to publish was won by just a single vote 5-4. People were told to bring their 'stab vests' for the launch and so forth. Needless to say no one showed up on the day. Immediately after publication FP/authors began to recieve threatning letters from libel lawyers Carter Ruck.
> 
> ...


The same Carter Ruck you used to sue the labour party for their temerity in Oxford tsch tsch


----------



## bamalama (May 31, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Nice one bam...the land/fields near to where we fish is owned by the O'Dowds...they own the big caff in Killashandra (come out yea black & tans) on the high street....wait for it....opposite the Shamrock pub ffs.


 Don't know the shandra really,just passed through it. My lot are more cavan town way,still chuffed as fuck i spotted it though...


----------



## Joe Reilly (Jun 1, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> The same Carter Ruck you used to sue the labour party for their temerity in Oxford tsch tsch


 
The differences were that the Labour Party were caught out in a big fat lie and the IWCA had the courage to sue. It cost them a total of £30,000 in total. On here you still claim BTF lied about Hann, that he was set up and so on. But when it came to the crunch the use of Carter Ruck was exposed as just another ruse to try and intimidate Freedom Press. At the moment of truth your advice to Louise, (Hann's missus) was *not* to sue. How come?


----------



## audiotech (Jun 1, 2012)

Yes Joe, and well done to the IWCA for exposing their big fat lie.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Jun 1, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> The only fiasco to do with Nolan was the sledgehammer you brought in to crack a nut and fuck up what could have been a potential intelligence benefit and also to save the fellahs family from a very unpleasant fate. It was me who done the leg work on that only for your lot to typically fuck it up.


 
'A potential intellegince benefit' to whom?


----------



## Joe Reilly (Jun 1, 2012)

audiotech said:


> Yes Joe, and well done to the IWCA for exposing their big fat lie.


 
Well the thing was that this was just one of many - that Stuart Craft was convicted drug dealer etc - the difference, the classic error one of their cllrs made on this occassion was to put it _in print_.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Jun 1, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Sheer poison so you forget your own fucking Red Action forum. More than 500 posts of utter shite inspired by you under whatever names it was still mainly your outfit..As far as an AFA book was in the pipeline..so what I had an idea in 1986 and had most of my stuff ready. Why should I worry about what you had in the piepeline...Im not answereable to you. Beating you to it is your main beef and you cant cope with it. Move on and get a hobby.


 
Some of the posts on the Red Action may indeed have been unpleasant to_ you_ precisely because they were true. Everyone guessed, what the purpose of the book was and you didn't disappoint.


----------



## bignose1 (Jun 2, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> The differences were that the Labour Party were caught out in a big fat lie and the IWCA had the courage to sue. It cost them a total of £30,000 in total. On here you still claim BTF lied about Hann, that he was set up and so on. But when it came to the crunch the use of Carter Ruck was exposed as just another ruse to try and intimidate Freedom Press. At the moment of truth your advice to Louise, (Hann's missus) was *not* to sue. How come?


So why complain when people ask about YOUR investigation...!!


----------



## bignose1 (Jun 2, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> 'A potential intellegince benefit' to whom?


Ive ran the anti fascist intelligence scene in Mcr since the mid 80's....unilaterally since the mid 90's....


----------



## bignose1 (Jun 2, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> Well the thing was that this was just one of many - that Stuart Craft was convicted drug dealer etc - the difference, the classic error one of their cllrs made on this occassion was to put it _in print_.


OOoooooo....but its ok for you and co to libel/slander/defame..............fucking pussies


----------



## Joe Reilly (Jun 2, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> OOoooooo....but its ok for you and co to libel/slander/defame..............fucking pussies


 
You still don't get it do you - a libel/slander is when you _knowingly_ lie. Telling the truth, even if ugly, even if injurious is neither slander nor libel. Why is that you seem to have trouble telling the difference? For instance, your story about getting on the NF coach by mistake is a made-up story to pad out your book. So on that basis someone can now legally call you a liar. On the otherhand the lowdown on Hann in BTF is the truth.
As well you know. Which is why, despite helpfully betraying the likes of 'Terry' and 'Andy' to Carter Ruck you didn't fancy it being tested in a court of law.

Not because, of any concern about the costs that would be incurred by Hann's missus should she pursue it, but because as Hann's buddy she would have expected *you* to testify in court. And sensibly you didn't fancy that at all did you? 'It's good a man knows his limitations' as someone once put it.

But, you still want have your cake and eat it, and so come on here and casually and routinely accuse others of lying pathologically while at the same lying in what might well be described as a pathological fashion about them.

It does rather seem that every time you find yourself in a corner rather than reason your way out, as someone who was telling the truth might choose to do, you opt instead to up the ante by inventing something else; something you failed, in the previous near *decade of exchanges to mention at all!  
Of the recent examples from an extensive back catalogue, for me anyway, the stand-out allegation has to be the of 'gangstering of Leeds AFA'.

Who, what, where, when and why? In your own time.



*(RA forum and Indymedia included)


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## bignose1 (Jun 2, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> You still don't get it do you - a libel/slander is when you _knowingly_ lie. Telling the truth, even if ugly, even if injurious is neither slander nor libel. Why is that you seem to have trouble telling the difference? For instance, your story about getting on the NF coach by mistake is a made-up story to pad out your book. So on that basis someone can now legally call you a liar. On the otherhand the lowdown on Hann in BTF is the truth.
> As well you know. Which is why, despite helpfully betraying the likes of 'Terry' and 'Andy' to Carter Ruck you didn't fancy it being tested in a court of law.
> 
> Not because, of any concern about the costs that would be incurred by Hann's missus should she pursue it, but because as Hann's buddy she would have expected *you* to testify in court. And sensibly you didn't fancy that at all did you? 'It's good a man knows his limitations' as someone once put it.
> ...


I probably know and your ramblings make it a ittle easier exactly why Daves missus chose to pursue you orinially with your pathological and continuous lying backed up by your cohorts. posing now as victims. In court your game would have been up and your 15 year campaign of subterfuge over those events exposed.You have history. A lot of it when it comes to people standing in your way. She in the end I assume, decided she didnt( or her children) fancy being on the end result of some grisly campaign which had already began apace, Me well you assume again regrdless of what I say. My contribution to the Carter Ruck thing will be taken up with them on confidentiallity grounds so Im saying nothing yet. And the old was I on the coach chestnut. Well what else wasnt I on ..Kingsbury..any Chapel Mrkts....Bury St Eds...Leicester....Ken Lib...yes ask JP he'll fill in the gaps for you. As Ive said before it doesnt matter one inch what YOU think. Again all your bluster....though you should of all people understand about false? allegations from old comrades. It goes with your nature O'Shea and your MO.For the Leeds boxes...tick,tick,tick,tick and tick. There done. Youve passed.


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## ayatollah (Jun 2, 2012)

Apart from the highly amusing , but untrue, "NF coach to Lewisham", intro story to "No Retreat", and the claimed personal presence by Bignose at the "battle of Piccadilly" (working a fish stall at the time - SOLID alibi - and so added credibility to my somewhat weaker one !), everything else Bignose writes in NR (up to 1987 anyway) is, I can confirm, pretty accurate (within the confusion/conflation of particular events - hardly surprising after so much time had passed).

As I've said before, Bignose has an anti-fascist past to be proud of, whatever he did or didn't do later on . And he had a perfect right to put it in a book, WITHOUT asking permission from the self established "official authorities" who make claim to BtF being in some unexplained way "the authorised history" . To be frank the accusation of "agendas" around No Retreat, is pretty rich, (true as the accusation may , or may not, be), given the sectarian platform that BtF in turn provides for the particular political positions of the IWCA in the Introduction and conclusion sections, eg, on "multiculturalism" as understood very individually by the IWCA in particular, and the contempteous writing off of the UK "Middle class Left". Let me be clear, despite some of the anti fascist activities in Manchester being covered in Btf, the overall politics of Manchester "Squaddism" were ALWAYS based solidly within the Revolutionery Socialist tradition, rather than whatever politics the ex remnants of RA and IWCA use BtF as a platform to promote. Despite this caveat, like "No Retreat" , "Beating the Fascists" is also a rattling good anti-fascist book. Maybe that's ALL that matters , and all that should matter, to the younger reader ?


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## bignose1 (Jun 2, 2012)

ayatollah said:


> Apart from the highly amusing , but untrue, "NF coach to Lewisham", intro story to "No Retreat", and the claimed personal presence by Bignose at the "battle of Piccadilly" (working a fish stall at the time - SOLID alibi - and so added credibility to my somewhat weaker one !), everything else Bignose writes in NR (up to 1987 anyway) is, I can confirm, pretty accurate (within the confusion/conflation of particular events - hardly surprising after so much time had passed).
> 
> As I've said before, Bignose has an anti-fascist past to be proud of, whatever he did or didn't do later on . And he had a perfect right to put it in a book, WITHOUT asking permission from the self established "official authorities" who make claim to BtF being in some unexplained way "the authorised history" . To be frank the accusation of "agendas" around No Surrender, is pretty rich, (true as the accusation may , or may not, be), given the sectarian platform that BtF in turn provides for the particular political positions of the IWCA in the Introduction and conclusion sections, eg, on "multiculturalism" as understood very individually by the IWCA in particular, and the contempteous writing off of the UK "Middle class Left". Let me be clear, despite some of the anti fascist activities in Manchester being covered in Btf, the overall politics of Manchester "Squaddism" were ALWAYS based solidly within the Revolutionery Socialist tradition, rather than whatever politics the ex remnants of RA and IWCA use BtF as a platform to promote. Despite this caveat, like "No Retreat" , "Beating the Fascists" is also a rattling good anti-fascist book. Maybe that's ALL that matters , and all that should matter, to the younger reader ?


JP we will agree to disagree on what you consider a true record of events.....as you remember we were very active at the time in and around the city centre and I could possibly be out on some things but not the main stuff ffs..Ive also not deliberately tried to beef myself up...I left out a very large chunk of stuff too for obvious reasons. I aslo left out mentioning many things I was involved in during my time with Searchlight, that too for obvious reasons. Searchlight have not been in my life for a long time apart from getting the mag and a few casual meetings on demos etc. Since the mid 90's Ive cultivated a small team to monitor stuff in the MCR area yet I find myself here again defending myself against people who Ive had no dealing for over 20 years reducing my a/f involvement to a brief interlude in the 80's. No Retreat was not a spoiler...get over it...and please when it comes to Porkies Ive seen and heard enough from the old RA lot to last a lifetime. Their disgraceful bullying of the Mcr Martyrs Committee and other groups who didnt agree. Oshea you cant have it both ways ...you were accused of something unpleasant only for an 'internal enquiry' to 'clear' you (and that therefore makes your accuser a liar)..Dave was also subject to an internal enquiry which stitched him up and at which you lied covered up and concocted evidence........ but he got not guilty in a court!. The same system you used to relieve the Labour party of 30k. Dave is dead and that means an easy target for you....proving that at heart you are really a gang of cowards and hypocrites.


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## miktheword (Jun 2, 2012)

[Dave was also subject to an internal enquiry which stitched him up and at which you lied covered up and concocted evidence........ but he got not guilty in a court!. The same system you used to relieve the Labour party of 30k. Dave is dead and that means an easy target for you....proving that at heart you are really a gang of cowards and hypocrites.[/quote]


But we all know Steve, getting a guilty or not, in court, is no proof of guilt or innocence in OUR eyes (those who were involved in such things)
BtF makes the point about Dave's defence being constructed for him. Are you saying that was a lie and that the book stitches him up on this?

I also looked back to page 22 of this thread and read the post by 'Jackie' specifically about the charges against Dave and later on the same page, a comprehensive account of Dave's time and activities in Mcr. by Demu

http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...history-of-anti-fascist-action.251690/page-22

Louise,
It would clear things up if you could explain why if someone had just been hit on the way home from the pub Dave ended up on street robbery charges. Also how he ended up with the victims student Library card on him when arrested?

Dave spoke often about the night in the Sporren, the incident with the heavy metal fans at the comedy night benefit for disabled bikers, but never before have I heard anyone link the two incidents not even Steve T who has put forward many different explanations for what took place. I understood the benefit night was months before, sometime around christmas. 
Sorry Louise but Dave didn't tell you the truth, the mugging was out of character, stupid and he was obviously ashamed.
jackie 68, Nov 17, 2010


Can I ask if you're saying these two accounts are false as well?


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## bignose1 (Jun 2, 2012)

miktheword said:


> [Dave was also subject to an internal enquiry which stitched him up and at which you lied covered up and concocted evidence........ but he got not guilty in a court!. The same system you used to relieve the Labour party of 30k. Dave is dead and that means an easy target for you....proving that at heart you are really a gang of cowards and hypocrites.


 

But we all know Steve, getting a guilty or not, in court, is no proof of guilt or innocence in OUR eyes (those who were involved in such things)
BtF makes the point about Dave's defence being constructed for him. Are you saying that was a lie and that the book stitches him up on this?

I also looked back to page 22 of this thread and read the post by 'Jackie' specifically about the charges against Dave and later on the same page, a comprehensive account of Dave's time and activities in Mcr. by Demu

http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...history-of-anti-fascist-action.251690/page-22

Louise,
It would clear things up if you could explain why if someone had just been hit on the way home from the pub Dave ended up on street robbery charges. Also how he ended up with the victims student Library card on him when arrested?

Dave spoke often about the night in the Sporren, the incident with the heavy metal fans at the comedy night benefit for disabled bikers, but never before have I heard anyone link the two incidents not even Steve T who has put forward many different explanations for what took place. I understood the benefit night was months before, sometime around christmas.
Sorry Louise but Dave didn't tell you the truth, the mugging was out of character, stupid and he was obviously ashamed.
jackie 68, Nov 17, 2010


Can I ask if you're saying these two accounts are false as well?[/quote]

Im sorry I dont reply to people I dont know on these matters....more than welcome otherwise


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## Joe Reilly (Jun 2, 2012)

ayatollah said:


> Apart from the highly amusing , but untrue, "NF coach to Lewisham", intro story to "No Retreat", and the claimed personal presence by Bignose at the "battle of Piccadilly" (working a fish stall at the time - SOLID alibi - and so added credibility to my somewhat weaker one !), everything else Bignose writes in NR (up to 1987 anyway) is, I can confirm, pretty accurate (within the confusion/conflation of particular events - hardly surprising after so much time had passed).
> 
> As I've said before, Bignose has an anti-fascist past to be proud of, whatever he did or didn't do later on . And he had a perfect right to put it in a book, WITHOUT asking permission from the self established "official authorities" who make claim to BtF being in some unexplained way "the authorised history" . To be frank the accusation of "agendas" around No Retreat, is pretty rich, (true as the accusation may , or may not, be), given the sectarian platform that BtF in turn provides for the particular political positions of the IWCA in the Introduction and conclusion sections, eg, on "multiculturalism" as understood very individually by the IWCA in particular, and the contempteous writing off of the UK "Middle class Left". Let me be clear, despite some of the anti fascist activities in Manchester being covered in Btf, the overall politics of Manchester "Squaddism" were ALWAYS based solidly within the Revolutionery Socialist tradition, rather than whatever politics the ex remnants of RA and IWCA use BtF as a platform to promote. Despite this caveat, like "No Retreat" , "Beating the Fascists" is also a rattling good anti-fascist book. Maybe that's ALL that matters , and all that should matter, to the younger reader ?


Once again you have the wrong end of the stick. To begin with, ST certainly had every right to write a book about _his_ exploits - without needing to ask permission from anyone. And if he had confined himself to what he did, there would be no problems even though the occassional gratutious embellishment does, I would argue, provide an important clue to character when it comes to matters of recall on related matters later.

But as we all know he didn't confine himself to tales of derring do in Manc and surrounding areas. Instead he decided to bolt his account to Hann's account and with a clever weave (nearly all dates removed for example) present No Retreat, not only as the history of 'the squad' but also as the comprehensive history of AFA, not just in Manchester or the North West but nationally, and from beginning to end, in order to beat AFA to the punch.

From this twisted perpestive the 'end of AFA' came naturally with Hann's 'disgraceful' expulsion on trumped up charges by senior members/'arm-chair generals' who had lost the stomach for the fight (over-night apparently). This loss of nerve led not only to the near immediate collapse of AFA and 'betrayal of the anti-fascist movement' but led directly to the subsequent triumph of the BNP electorally, you are invited to conclude. Ultimately, it was AFA, not the BNP which capitulated. It is not the necessary slanders of individuals along the way to make it credible, that is _not_ the real source of disgust, for anyone defending it or who otherwise chooses to be associated with it.

Pound for pound AFA was one of the best organisations to come out of the left post-war. Not only did it stop the BNP, B&H, and C18 it forced the far-right (something not achieved either by the 43 Group or the ANL mark 1 incidentally) as a whole into 'a more circutious route to their objectives', and thus buying the entire left time to regroup, and to date there has still be no return to the streets in any sustained fashion.

Surely what matters most to the next generation of anti-fascists is to know _exactly_ what happened back then. In terms of actual history 'all that really matters' to them is the unvarnished truth, warts and all. I would argue that to endorse No Retreat as 'rattling good read' is completely wrongheaded and does 'younger readers' in particular no favours. To put it another way, imagine for a moment it was the BNP that actually won the 'battle for the streets; but BTF nevertheless argued that the reverse was the case? It and everyone that identified with it would be open to ridicule and deservedly so.
It is no less important that precisely the same standards are applied to No Retreat.


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## bignose1 (Jun 3, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> Once again you have the wrong end of the stick. To begin with, ST certainly had every right to write a book about _his_ exploits - without needing to ask permission from anyone. And if he had confined himself to what he did, there would be no problems even though the occassional gratutious embellishment does, I would argue, provide an important clue to character when it comes to matters of recall on related matters later.
> 
> But as we all know he didn't confine himself to tales of derring do in Manc and surrounding areas. Instead he decided to bolt his account to Hann's account and with a clever weave (nearly all dates removed for example) present No Retreat, not only as the history of 'the squad' but also as the comprehensive history of AFA, not just in Manchester or the North West but nationally, and from beginning to end, in order to beat AFA to the punch.
> 
> ...


 
There again your ego takes pride of place. Just accept that the anti fascsit fight is not about you or the people with who you associate. Dave had an opinion on how he felt things had gone with the downscaling of AFA and he was obviously influenced by the way he was treated but that is his entitlement. I dont disagree about AFA and your anaylysis on the whole but you are determined to put words nto peoples mouths by finding a scapegoat for your leaving the anti fascist scene. Personally Im glad your out of it ...I see your current politics as very suss and you will have to live with that. I have had numerous PMs from people who are concerned by your rightist anti socialism. The only people obsessed by NR are you and your colleagues. It doesnt fit with your history...unlucky for the world then isnt it that theyve had to endure the fantasies of two wannabee anti fascists who had the audacity to write about it. In addition if the belief that Dave H could deliberately go out and target gay people to mug then by that theory it is reasonable to assume that the allegations made against you could also be true ...considering it was also fellow comrades who made them......you cant have it fucking both ways.


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## Joe Reilly (Jun 3, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> There again your ego takes pride of place. Just accept that the anti fascsit fight is not about you or the people with who you associate.


 
Remind me: Are you the same Steve Tilzey who wrote a book about _yourself_ and has been crowing about a film again starring _yourself_ or is that some other SteveTilzey?


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## sumud (Jun 3, 2012)

God almighty Gary, let it go. I know you lived on your own for far too long and when A shacked up with the "reporter" it killed you but you need to move on. If it makes you feel better, your book is great . Bold DH and ST for writing their book but considering it took you 20 years to put yours together, you can hardly blame them. Remember when you thought you were great because 'open polemic' carried a reply from you. Circulation about 100 copies I believe. London still loves you but we are still fighting the fash, not typing with anger!


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## malatesta32 (Jun 4, 2012)

Nigel said:


> No Retreat is on Kindle and some bizzare fantasy called Dead Paki Walking. Also samples
> Stuart Christie was talking on Facebook about putting Anarcho books online but I can't see Beating The Fascists being one of these.
> However AFA/IWCA sell them at their socials for £5.00 so its hardly expensive!
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/No-Retreat-...?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1338415581&sr=1-1
> ...


nigel, is the ali book worth a look? does it tell us anything we dont already know?


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## bignose1 (Jun 4, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> Remind me: Are you the same Steve Tilzey who wrote a book about _yourself_ and has been crowing about a film again starring _yourself_ or is that some other SteveTilzey?


Yes Yes No


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## Demu (Jun 4, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> The only fiasco to do with Nolan was the sledgehammer you brought in to crack a nut and fuck up what could have been a potential intelligence benefit and also to save the fellahs family from a very unpleasant fate. It was me who done the leg work on that only for your lot to typically fuck it up.


I thought we had put the Nolan story to bed, but yet again, you re-invent the story and cast yourself in the role of the good Samaritan. 


Yes it is true that you did the early legwork when you brought the info including the man’s name and address to AFA. This was described by Dave and Gerry as your peace offering, after being kicked out of AFA and relieved of your post as intelligence officer following the misinformation provided to AFA re Rochdale BNP mobilisation.


The immediate response by yourself and AFA was to embark on a campaign of attacks on his car, his home and family, all with the intention of softening him up to bring him to the table. For AFA the goal was to shut down the branch.


When Nolan agreed to meet AFA to end the harrassment, you hijacked the meeting, leaving AFA sat in a pub, looking somewhat sheepish.



Dave Hann rang me and explained that Steve and Searchlight had pulled a fast one, and asked what they should do. I advised Dave to ring you, explain that this was not acceptable and invite you to re-arrange the meeting for the following weekend, which would coincide with a visit to Manchester by some London AFA people.. You agreed to arrange this meeting.


In the meantime I spoke to DN who knew someone who worked with Nolan. A message was passed to Nolan. 


The following week I was with Dave Hann when he rang you for details of the meeting, only for you to claim that Nolan himself had pulled out at the last minute and there was nothing you could do.



Ten minutes later I rang Nolan and asked why he wasn’t prepared to meet AFA as arranged. ‘What meeting’ was his response. I asked Nolan did he want to meet AFA and resolve matters to which he replied ‘yes, where can we meet’, when I suggested the Whalley, he asked how soon. We met an hour after the phone call. 


We met in the Whalley, and Dave Hann, surprisingly passed up the opportunity to conduct the interview, leaving it to myself and GM to do. By co-incidence DN was in the Whalley at the bar, and was spotted by Nolan first, who commented, Is that who I think it is? DN came over, introduced himself and went away.


Our analysis was that Nolan was not a die hard fascist but had been drawn into the BNP by circumstance and perhaps all that was needed was a word in his ear and a friendly chat to put the matter to rights. 


Nolan knew people that we knew, and, a far more pragmatic strategy, and one that could possibly have led to an intelligence dividend would have been to make the approaches through these channels, unfortunatetly by the time I got involved, you had already set in play a strategy which wrecked his car three times, attacked his house, scared the shit out of his wife and kids, outed him (and his wife) in the Manchester Evening News (and to their employers) and then double crossed AFA into the bargain.


Some Samaritan you turned out to be.


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## bignose1 (Jun 4, 2012)

Demu said:


> I thought we had put the Nolan story to bed, but yet again, you re-invent the story and cast yourself in the role of the good Samaritan.
> 
> 
> Yes it is true that you did the early legwork when you brought the info including the man’s name and address to AFA. This was described by Dave and Gerry as your peace offering, after being kicked out of AFA and relieved of your post as intelligence officer following the misinformation provided to AFA re Rochdale BNP mobilisation.
> ...


Absolute bullshit Clifford...wondered when you'd emerge from under your fucking stone...couldnt be more of a lying cunt if you tried. It was you and your fucking knob head mates who attacked his house, car etc. What youve just explained is perhaps the most appalling lies you could ever have concocted and you will you fucking arsehole be shown up to be a complete liar on this. And Mike Nolan will testify that this is the case. Me and Mike met in the Throstles Nest and I explained to him that he'd made a mistake. His sons were friends of my kid his wife friends with CK and my ex missus. Me and Mike became and are close friends because I tried my best to protect him and his family. Clifford you are by this report perhaps the dirtiest lying cunt I have ever come across. CK will as she was involved be apalled at what you have portrayed, I hope you fucking go down in the history of anti fascism as fucking hated as your nazi fascist murdering cunt of a brother will do. Scum is too good a word for you.


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## Demu (Jun 4, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Absolute bullshit Clifford...wondered when you'd emerge from under your fucking stone...couldnt be more of a lying cunt if you tried. It was you and your fucking knob head mates who attacked his house, car etc. What youve just explained is perhaps the most appalling lies you could ever have concocted and you will you fucking arsehole be shown up to be a complete liar on this. And Mike Nolan will testify that this is the case. Me and Mike met in the Throstles Nest and I explained to him that he'd made a mistake. His sons were friends of my kid his wife friends with CK and my ex missus. Me and Mike became and are close friends because I tried my best to protect him and his family. Clifford you are by this report perhaps the dirtiest lying cunt I have ever come across. CK will as she was involved be apalled at what you have portrayed, I hope you fucking go down in the history of anti fascism as fucking hated as your nazi fascist murdering cunt of a brother will do. Scum is too good a word for you.


 
Think you've just been found out Steve. Go and read No Retreat and see what Dave Hann says about it.

Who were you protecting him from? After Nolan met us in the Whalley it was over. The attacks had already taken place before I was called into the matter by Dave Hann. How do you explain that?


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## Riklet (Jun 5, 2012)

So anyway it's mostly been quite inspiring and eye opening this thread, at points it's some of the best stuff i've read on urban75, in fact was re-reading some older bits recently.  So for what it's worth thanks!

Since there is no ebook version available I'm gona try and and buy a print copy when back in the UK in a month.


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## bignose1 (Jun 5, 2012)

Demu said:


> Think you've just been found out Steve. Go and read No Retreat and see what Dave Hann says about it.
> 
> Who were you protecting him from? After Nolan met us in the Whalley it was over. The attacks had already taken place before I was called into the matter by Dave Hann. How do you explain that?


Mike Nolan knows exactly what went on and knew full well what was potentially going to happen to him when you like a twat informed your gangster mates. I tried to protect him and his family from this threat so dont get all altruistic. When Dave wrote about it in NR thats his version which I had no say in but would have at the time opposed what happened to him.I also know that youve lied when you speak of DN just being in the pub. A fucking big whopper that Clifford. The attacks were carried out by AFA under your direction, Mike knows that and thats why to this day will always remember like I would, who was responsible for putting him and his family through hell  Additionally there was  never going to be an intel benefit in my books...I said previously a 'potential' one. My priority when I realised he'd been set up as a patsy by Ken Henederson and Chris Jackson was to save him and family from a attack and harrasment. There were mutal connections that Ive mentioned previously. Clifford Ive said before your history and MO is to hide behind gangs and you will always distance yourself from anything directly dodgy...directing shite from afar. Probably why youve never had a nicking...your occasional punch ups being the sum total of your anti fascist worth. Go and fuck off back to your 'crew'


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## Demu (Jun 5, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Mike Nolan knows exactly what went on and knew full well what was potentially going to happen to him when you like a twat informed your gangster mates. I tried to protect him and his family from this threat so dont get all altruistic. When Dave wrote about it in NR thats his version which I had no say in but would have at the time opposed what happened to him.I also know that youve lied when you speak of DN just being in the pub. A fucking big whopper that Clifford. The attacks were carried out by AFA under your direction, Mike knows that and thats why to this day will always remember like I would, who was responsible for putting him and his family through hell Additionally there was never going to be an intel benefit in my books...I said previously a 'potential' one. My priority when I realised he'd been set up as a patsy by Ken Henederson and Chris Jackson was to save him and family from a attack and harrasment. There were mutal connections that Ive mentioned previously. Clifford Ive said before your history and MO is to hide behind gangs and you will always distance yourself from anything directly dodgy...directing shite from afar. Probably why youve never had a nicking...your occasional punch ups being the sum total of your anti fascist worth. Go and fuck off back to your 'crew'


 

‘Steve phoned up the Post Office, claiming that he was a customer with a complaint against the owner of the PO box and was eventually given an address in Chorlton.’ 

‘We went round there , expecting to be confronted by some tooled-up nazi, but instead found a slightly dazed and confused old hippie woman.’ No Retreat by D Hann & S. Tilzey. P.246

‘The hippie woman lost no time telling us name and address of this ‘friend’, and within a week the campaign was in full swing. His car was wrecked on at least three occasions, his living room windows were smashed, and pressure was brought to bear on him at his workplace….’

‘After the story was leaked to a local newspaper, his wife also came under pressure at her place of work, and it was all looking a bit grim for the newest member of the master race. Within a month he had been approached by an anti fascist and been offered a way out of this mess he had gotten himself into.’ No Retreat by D Hann & S. Tilzey. P.247

It is when AFA was cut out of this meeting that I was contacted by Dave Hann. I was based in London, and prior to Dave’s phone call, had no involvement whatsoever. Why would I have been involved? I could not have been further away. 

As Dave makes clear, all the attacks take place BEFORE Nolan is approached by you for the first meeting, which is BEFORE I was contacted by Dave. 

The shameful and cowardly attacks were set up by you. It is self evident even from the abridged version of events in No Retreat. 

No amount of bluff and bluster about gangsters takes responsibility for setting Nolan up, away from you.  As I stated in my previous post, there were other ways that Nolan could have been approached without the sledgehammer tactics. If you had done your legwork properly, and spoke to people including  DN, (with whom we have a shared history in the squad), you would not have needed to initiate the campaign of harassment in the manner that you did.


Likewise you only found out that LF and CK knew his wife after you had outed him and his wife in the Manchester Evening News. You think LF and CK haven’t worked this out?


You had the opportunity to keep AFA out of the Nolan issue and do the legwork without involving AFA. So why did you go to AFA in the first instance, if not to get them to react the way they did?  Why did you then cut them out of the meeting, after the attacks had already taken place, knowing full well that this would quite possibly cause Manchester AFA to resume?


My involvement in the Nolan saga begins and ends with arranging the meeting that you reneged upon, in order to close the matter out and put an end to what had become a quite unsavoury tale of harassment and intimidation. In all less than a week. At the end of the meeting Nolan, said, ‘I wish I had met you guys before I got involved with the BNP’  Nolan was given a firm re-assurance that the matter was closed. Who were you now required to protect him from? 


What this story exposes is your MO around AFA and intelligence work. Your capacity to blame others rather than take responsibility for your own actions is boundless. Calling me the mother of all liars when you and I both know the truth, is utterly bizarre but that is all you are left with by way of defence. 

And as much as your indymedia persona floods into your Urban75 posts, it only serves to highlights how desparate you have become.

PS Like the bit about the nickings…..another example of your tenuous link with reality.


----------



## bignose1 (Jun 5, 2012)

Demu said:


> ‘Steve phoned up the Post Office, claiming that he was a customer with a complaint against the owner of the PO box and was eventually given an address in Chorlton.’
> 
> ‘We went round there , expecting to be confronted by some tooled-up nazi, but instead found a slightly dazed and confused old hippie woman.’ No Retreat by D Hann & S. Tilzey. P.246
> 
> ...


 
Again you go into a full rewriting of the real events. The truth is you spiteful cunt that I located the South Manchester Organiser (amazing as you previously said I stitched AFA up for info you know say I wholeheartedly shared intel.) In and around South Manchester there had been signs of increased racist activity..consisting mainly of graffiti and stickering. A PO box trace within days found out who was really behind the BNP branch. I never hid this from Dave...we'd been doing a bit of stuff together. But once I found out who he was and the personal ties which were LF's and CK's primarily so there was some time in between, I immediately called him and arranged a meeting on my own. I put it to him that he was in serious trouble and he realised that. I then tried to work out a strategy that would get him out of a sticky situation. However by that time others took it upon themeselves to attack him..and I had no influence on that indeed this is when you and you lot came in and informed me that I was witholding info and stated 'we'll do it our way'. DH may well have been involved in that but I never once got involved in that you sick fucker. The Evening News article was before the relationships came to light. Everyone knows the truth Clifford..especially Mike Nolan who will testify to my help... our subsequent friendship exists because he knows full well the support I gave him and his family...he's knows about your role and quite honestly if you hadnt had DN and co he would have seen you off pronto. Your lies know no end..Regards indymedia posts well lets go back to Red Action forum circa 2003 need I say any more. Oh and please answer this one which you evade constantly...oh talking about harrassment and intimidation...why then did you have to say 'should see th crew weve got now' unless to confirnm the way you have and will alwys operate...hiding behind gangs..manipulating situations then setting up people. You have now exposed to previously sceptical parties what a twat you are. And for any one else who wants to wade into this...Clifford is a liar and will go to no ends to fulfill his and his cohorts agenda.


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## Demu (Jun 5, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Again you go into a full rewriting of the real events. The truth is you spiteful cunt that I located the South Manchester Organiser (amazing as you previously said I stitched AFA up for info you know say I wholeheartedly shared intel.) In and around South Manchester there had been signs of increasing activity..consisting mainly of graffiti and stickering. A PO box trace within days found out who was really behind the BNP branch. I never hid this from Dave...we'd been doing a bit of stuff together. But once I found out who he was and the personal ties which were LF's and CK's primarily so there was some time inbetween, I immediately called him and arranged a meeting on my own. I put it to him that he was in serious trouble and he realised that. I then tried to work out a strategy that would get him out of a sticky situation. However by that time others took it upon themeselves to attack him..and I had no influence on that indeed this is when you and you lot came in informed me that I was witholding info and stated we'll do it our way. DH may well have been involved in that but I never once got involved in that you sick fucker. The Evening News article was before the relationships came to light. Everyone knows the truth Clifford..especially Mike Nolan who will testify to my help... our subsequent friendship exists because he knows full well the support I gave him and his family...he's knows about your role and quite honestly if you hadnt had DN and co he would have seen you off pronto. Your lies know no end..Regards indymedia posts well lets go back to Red Action forum circa 2003 need I say no mor. Oh and please answer this one which you evade constantly...oh talking about harrassment and intimidation...why then did you have to say 'should see th crew weve got now' unless to confirnm the way you have and will alwys operate...hiding behind gangs..manipulating situations then setting up people. You have now exposed to previously sceptical parties what a twat you are. And for any one else who wants to wade into this...Clifford is a liar and will go to no ends to fulfill his and his cohorts agenda.


 
So Steve, the Evening News article was before the relationships came to light.


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## bignose1 (Jun 5, 2012)

Demu said:


> So Steve, the Evening News article was before the relationships came to light.


It was with the weekly Metro with John Jeffay....and what Ill do Sherlock is PM you MN's number.... and he'll tell you exactly what the timeline was. If you think and believe for one minute that I was behind any attack on his home and car then it'll confirm everything about what you said about Dave H and every other unfortunate cunt youv'e threatened or tried to misrepresent. And you fucking know it. Infact that Porky cunt tried to take me to task...the fucking cheek when he was tasked by AFA about it.That was not long after Id given his homeless fat arse a place to live.In addition, one of MN's neighbours part of the trendy Chorlton Beech Road clique of lefty social worker types was causing Mike's wife problems with her job at a local school. It was me who went round to see her to make her back off. Although I was behind the exposing of the South Manchestre BNP organiser I was soley responsible for his rehabilitation in the community. What you are saying is in many ways fine as it gives me the confirmation that deep down you are a deeply flawed and vindicative bastard.


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## Joe Reilly (Jun 5, 2012)

sumud said:


> ... your book is great .


 
Happily, it does seem to be a view that is fairly widely shared. And here was me confusing you with the cease-fire soldier who travelled to a public meeting in Lenadoon last year purely to denounce BTF as a "hoax" written by "armchair generals".


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## jackie 68 (Jun 6, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Absolute bullshit Clifford...wondered when you'd emerge from under your fucking stone...couldnt be more of a lying cunt if you tried. It was you and your fucking knob head mates who attacked his house, car etc. What youve just explained is perhaps the most appalling lies you could ever have concocted and you will you fucking arsehole be shown up to be a complete liar on this. And Mike Nolan will testify that this is the case. Me and Mike met in the Throstles Nest and I explained to him that he'd made a mistake. His sons were friends of my kid his wife friends with CK and my ex missus. Me and Mike became and are close friends because I tried my best to protect him and his family. Clifford you are by this report perhaps the dirtiest lying cunt I have ever come across. CK will as she was involved be apalled at what you have portrayed, I hope you fucking go down in the history of anti fascism as fucking hated as your nazi fascist murdering cunt of a brother will do. Scum is too good a word for you.


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## jackie 68 (Jun 6, 2012)

So you were trying to turn Nolan into a long term intelligence asset? For who, bearing in mind the timeline and your retirement date?

And the other guy who was getting attacked I think his name was Red(?) what were you intending to do with him, just how far did your powers of redemption stretch?

 I think you are forgetting too that Nolan had "raised the ante" by leading an attack on an Irish Republican event in the city only weeks before the attacks on him began. He met a coachload from Glasgow at the happy eater and along with BNP and city lads attacked the event in Longsight. Poor lost little lamb....
Just out of curiosity could you clarify if you indeed did break links with searchlight and your superior in manchester ML in 1994 why have you continued accepting information from people(Labour party people, trade union people, cp people etc) and what have you been doing with it?


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## butchersapron (Jun 6, 2012)

In public? Come on.

(not directed at jackie solely but recent participants all)


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## malatesta32 (Jun 6, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> In public? Come on.
> 
> (not directed at jackie soley but recent participants all)


 
too right. please take it to PM.


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## miktheword (Jun 6, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> too right. please take it to PM.


 


the events being discussed here surrounding Nolan, DH's interview, are a bone of contention by Big Nose regarding what is written in BtF, about himself and the above.

I can't see why they should be taken to pm (security not an issue anymore, names have already been mentioned) and the questions, answers, or lack of,  are much more relevant to the thread title than the page of fishing, a few days back.


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## butchersapron (Jun 6, 2012)

Names maybe shouldn't have been mentioned. That they have doesn't mean it should go on. The political stuff sure, but let's keep to it. Because that's not the last few posts.


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## jackie 68 (Jun 7, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Names maybe shouldn't have been mentioned. That they have doesn't mean it should go on. The political stuff sure, but let's keep to it. Because that's not the last few posts.


no need to deal in PMs  about what is already in the public domain via NR and BTF etc. What are the names you are worried about anyway, the fascists? I expect nig nose will now offer to draw the matter to a close, not answer any questions posed to him and kiss and make up- he usually does..


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## butchersapron (Jun 7, 2012)

Names, places, incidents, new Info to connect them. Its all here and its all ammunition.


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## chilango (Jun 7, 2012)

It's embarrassing, and saddening.


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## malatesta32 (Jun 7, 2012)

miktheword said:


> the events being discussed here surrounding Nolan, DH's interview, are a bone of contention by Big Nose regarding what is written in BtF, about himself and the above.
> 
> I can't see why they should be taken to pm (security not an issue anymore, names have already been mentioned) and the questions, answers, or lack of, are much more relevant to the thread title than the page of fishing, a few days back.


mik, as a couple of folks have said here, its embarassing. they aint gonna agree on the issues so why fill this thread with their personal differences when the thread is about a wider subject. and a worthy one at that!


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## Citizen66 (Jun 7, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> And now time for an interlude.




.


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## miktheword (Jun 7, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> mik, as a couple of folks have said here, its embarassing. they aint gonna agree on the issues so why fill this thread with their personal differences when the thread is about a wider subject. and a worthy one at that!


 


Of course they're not going to agree and send Christmas cards, and while it may be embarrassing for some to read, the wider and worthy subject that you mention, is why I think it is important.

When the authenticity of one account of militant anti fascist history is challenged to be a lie on the points being debated, by one of the authors of the other account, its only by asking who, when, what, where, why etc, that we can get to the truth of the matter.

And the reasons for getting to the truth are of great importance.
If DH's defence was constructed for him, if he was working to a different agenda to what he said in the book, just before the trial, and BECAUSE of the trial, and hence after with the book, then has to lead those interested in these matters to hold BtF as a true account of militant anti fascist history.

Its explained better in JR's recent posts on the subject..

*I suppose what it comes down to is whether you regard No Retreat, penned by Dave Hann and Steve Tilzey as a more or less truthful political record of not insignificant political events, or a novel? It was suggested on here by former colleagues that the opening scene in the book, with regard to Tilzey getting on an NF coach instead of a Man Utd one by mistake, did not happen, or at least did not happen to Tilzey.*

*Which inevitably leads to all sorts of questions about the honesty of the authors and their political motivation for writing the book in the first place.*

*Historically there have been two types of anti-fascism. One seeks to protect the centre from the far-right, the other to displace the far-right the better to carry the fight against the political centre. One is represented by the Searchlight brand while AFA represents the latter. No Retreat manages to conflate the two and concludes (and tellingly in the author's promotion of the book) accuses radical anti-fascism of betraying the entire movement out of a mixture of narrow political gain and physical cowardice.*

*As I said, it just depends on whether this is ultimately resolved, and whether you consider it to be politically important or not?*
and here

*From this twisted perpestive the 'end of AFA' came naturally with Hann's 'disgraceful' expulsion on trumped up charges by senior members/'arm-chair generals' who had lost the stomach for the fight (over-night apparently). This loss of nerve led not only to the near immediate collapse of AFA and 'betrayal of the anti-fascist movement' but led directly to the subsequent triumph of the BNP electorally, you are invited to conclude. Ultimately, it was AFA, not the BNP which capitulated.*

so for me, this is about a true historical account of AFA's history, not the personalities; the abuse can be ignored; the issue of far greater importance is anti-fascism and did it succeed with those tactics, forcing the BNP to capitulate, change tactics etc. Surely this matters, not anyone's embarrassment.

Mick


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## sumud (Jun 8, 2012)

Gary, just googled Lenadon. Your way off the mark there buddy. Never been to Ulster but then, your intel was never the greatest. After all, you used to rely on Gerry Gable for tips. Searchlight info swap anybody?


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## bignose1 (Jun 8, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> In public? Come on.
> 
> (not directed at jackie solely but recent participants all)


Your right butchers.... I explain in public anything to this little runt?...who the fuck do they think they are. This is the problem.....they get their lackies to pester away with their arrogant...how dare you take any credit for anything attitude. There is very little use in arguing/defending anything Ive done. Youve got your cronies to fill these pages with lies and distortions...I honestly cant help but laugh at you now. And I apologise to people on here who have to endure it. Not my best moment too but I cant help their obsessive behaviour.


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## chilango (Jun 8, 2012)

miktheword said:


> the issue of far greater importance is anti-fascism and did it succeed with those tactics, forcing the BNP to capitulate, change tactics etc. Surely this matters, not anyone's embarrassment.
> 
> Mick


 
Absolutely.

The endless re-hashing of those events in Manchester and elsewhere 20 years ago do _not_ contribute to this.

Sure, it mattered then. Both in terms of the matter of personal trust and in terms of the role of Searchlight.

But the constant re-arguing of essentially personal details no longer does.

Things have moved on.

*People who were around at the time will, if they care, already have formulated judgements on these matters a long time ago. I know my views are not being changed by the "discussions" above.*

People who weren't around at the time really don't need to hear all of this.

Essentially, all that needs to be taken and reviewed today are the following:

1/ The success, and limitations, of physical force anti-fascism (AFA)

2/ The need, or otherwise, of filling the political vacuum (the IWCA strategy)

3/ Whether state connected anti-fascism can be trusted or effective (Searchlight/HNH etc.)

These can, and should, be discussed, without all the shit being slung around above.


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## The39thStep (Jun 8, 2012)

The trouble with some parts of this thread is that it gets so insular and personal with allegation followed by abuse followed by  allegation about particular incidents and personal histories.

Its sometimes difficult for those not at the neart of this to comprehend the ferocious vitriol  that this evidenced itself in both on the RA site re the publication of No Retreat  and on Indymedia  etc when Beating the Fascists was published.

However within this  ferocious vitriol  I don't think we can walk away from this conclusion  which I think distils the political differences of how both books end.



> *From this twisted perpestive the 'end of AFA' came naturally with Hann's 'disgraceful' expulsion on trumped up charges by senior members/'arm-chair generals' who had lost the stomach for the fight (over-night apparently). This loss of nerve led not only to the near immediate collapse of AFA and 'betrayal of the anti-fascist movement' but led directly to the subsequent triumph of the BNP electorally, you are invited to conclude. Ultimately, it was AFA, not the BNP which capitulated.*


 
Lets also not forget that amidst the attempts to stop the publication of BtF a third book appeared on the scene heavily marketed with appearances on the BBC ,the Guardian et al and a speaking tour written by Mathew Collins.An enjoyable and at some points a hilarious read but what conclusion does that book draw politically?


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## Mrs Magpie (Jun 8, 2012)

Can someone tell me what's going on here? Butchers? You're a face I know and have a rep for reliability.  There are real names on this thread but really I don't know which ones are OK to leave and which to edit out.
I have come in response to reported posts and frankly reading this thread is doing my head in and I'm still non the bloody wiser apart from the fact that there seems to be a lot of heartfelt hatred about historical spats and splits.


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## malatesta32 (Jun 8, 2012)

mik! by way of a reposne -  what chilango said up there!


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## Red Storm (Jun 8, 2012)

Every name and event (except one minor detail given by Bignose) is in the public 





Mrs Magpie said:


> Can someone tell me what's going on here? Butchers? You're a face I know and have a rep for reliability.  There are real names on this thread but really I don't know which ones are OK to leave and which to edit out.
> I have come in response to reported posts and frankly reading this thread is doing my head in and I'm still non the bloody wiser apart from the fact that there seems to be a lot of heartfelt hatred about historical spats and splits.



I don't think I've read anything (except one minor detail given by Bignose) that isn't already in the public domain.


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## bignose1 (Jun 8, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> mik, as a couple of folks have said here, its embarassing. they aint gonna agree on the issues so why fill this thread with their personal differences when the thread is about a wider subject. and a worthy one at that!


I think all this is bringing the worst out of me and quite honestly its not doing me any good either. I am now going to retire from this stuff...I rate the opinions and wisdom of Mal and Butchers and 39 and techs Red Storm etc. The posts are your quite right...foul mouthed and bitter and quite honestly I have a lot on my plate at the moment so thats probably why the anger is so fierce. It isnt going to get better in the long run. So if youve still got things to say carry on...I do think though you must admit its a bit rich for me to explain stuff to people I dont know and who dont say who they are or their contribution to the struggle. I might drop in for a look now and again but for now and the forseable future Im out of here to look after someone who's more important than all this at the moment.


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## Citizen66 (Jun 8, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> The trouble with some parts of this thread is that it gets so insular and personal with allegation followed by abuse followed by  allegation about particular incidents and personal histories.
> 
> Its sometimes difficult for those not at the neart of this to comprehend the ferocious vitriol  that this evidenced itself in both on the RA site re the publication of No Retreat  and on Indymedia  etc when Beating the Fascists was published.
> 
> ...



Collins seemed to play down a lot of AFA involvement in taking the BNP/NF off the streets. Which I found strange given he's now supposed to be on the side of the anti-fascists.


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## articul8 (Jun 8, 2012)

He's Searchlight though?


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## chilango (Jun 8, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> II do think though you must admit its a bit rich for me to explain stuff to people I dont know and who dont say who they are or their contribution to the struggle.


 
Then don't keep trying to explain yourself!

I also think that there's enough people on this thread who's real life identities have been "outed"  without any of the rest of us adding to it, so don't expect any ID details from the likes of me!

Anyway, I'd rather the thread went back to discussing key political conclusions drawn from the history of AFA than the persistant picking of old wounds.


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## malatesta32 (Jun 8, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> Collins seemed to play down a lot of AFA involvement in taking the BNP/NF off the streets. Which I found strange given he's now supposed to be on the side of the anti-fascists.


yes we mentioned it in the review that with a lot of hope not hate/searchlight material (white riot, white noise etc) AFA are rarely mentioned or are called antifascists. the big AFA/searchlight fallout being the reason. it is possible to cross reference this stuff with BTF and suss out who was actually involved.


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## Divisive Cotton (Jun 8, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Can someone tell me what's going on here? Butchers? You're a face I know and have a rep for reliability. There are real names on this thread but really I don't know which ones are OK to leave and which to edit out.
> I have come in response to reported posts and frankly reading this thread is doing my head in and I'm still non the bloody wiser apart from the fact that there seems to be a lot of heartfelt hatred about historical spats and splits.


 
just close the thread and delete the whole thing

if they want to start a new thread discussing politics rather than personalities then let them, but this one doesn't serve any purpose any more.


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## malatesta32 (Jun 8, 2012)

please dont delete the thread theres stuff on here i aint copied yet!


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## past caring (Jun 8, 2012)

Divisive Cotton said:


> just close the thread and delete the whole thing
> 
> if they want to start a new thread discussing politics rather than personalities then let them, but this one doesn't serve any purpose any more.


 
Fuck me, you really have fallen by the wayside.


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## malatesta32 (Jun 8, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> i got that dead paki walking but andi ali (iirc) who wrote it comes across as something of a loon. a very confused loon too, imo


 
hey pickmans! is it worth a look? its a bit steep on amazon but seems important. and do we know who ali actually is?


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## malatesta32 (Jun 8, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> I'll scan it up if you'd be willing to send it hard copy.
> 
> I got a cracking dissertation from an ex-Blagger about the BNP and NF in liverpool. It really is amazing.


you gonna post that up? sounds great!


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## TopCat (Jun 8, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> I am now going to retire from this stuff....


 
How long do you think before he is back?


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## TopCat (Jun 8, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Can someone tell me what's going on here? Butchers? You're a face I know and have a rep for reliability. There are real names on this thread but really I don't know which ones are OK to leave and which to edit out.
> I have come in response to reported posts and frankly reading this thread is doing my head in and I'm still non the bloody wiser apart from the fact that there seems to be a lot of heartfelt hatred about historical spats and splits.


 
I would just leave it alone to be fair.


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## malatesta32 (Jun 8, 2012)

dont mind now, got most of the amusing 'tales' saved. some very funny ones.


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## Red Storm (Jun 8, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> you gonna post that up? sounds great!


 
I'll email the fella now.


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## malatesta32 (Jun 8, 2012)

great stuff! there seems to a few of these knocking about, froggy, bignose etc. also got emailed one which i havent read yet. i will ask them if they can forward it to you. the biblios are vital!


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## past caring (Jun 8, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> dont mind now, got most of the amusing 'tales' saved. some very funny ones.


 
Not everyone will have. And besides, your take - gathering further source material for your own book - is a particular one. The thread is a useful one and despite some of the personal stuff, contains plenty of politics. The notion that it should be deleted in its entirety is fucking bizarre, particularly coming from a one-time AFA member (or perhaps not - maybe more politically motivated, now I think about it).


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## malatesta32 (Jun 8, 2012)

PC! i know i was being flippant. best tales tho are from intersol and the adventure of the torn breeks and liam Os [?] about swearing in a nice antifascist meeting!


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## Red Storm (Jun 8, 2012)

Divisive Cotton said:


> just close the thread and delete the whole thing
> 
> if they want to start a new thread discussing politics rather than personalities then let them, but this one doesn't serve any purpose any more.


 
Too much good stuff to delete the thread.

It is important that historical facts are agreed upon, however, with the Nolan event, two contrary positions now exist. The Nolan event does contain important lessons to be learnt which is why it is worth debating. However, nothing much more can be argued now really; unless there was a new voice.

A few important points have been raised in the mist of the arguing and Chilango has pointed them out.


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## Pickman's model (Jun 8, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> hey pickmans! is it worth a look? its a bit steep on amazon but seems important. and do we know who ali actually is?


I wouldn't bother


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## malatesta32 (Jun 8, 2012)

thanks mate, saved me a few bob! terrible title.


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## Demu (Jun 9, 2012)

Butchers, Miktheword, Malatesta32 et al. I note your comments. I too, thought this matter had been left in the ‘agree to differ’ file, following previous posts on this matter. 

The versions of this little anecdote in NR and BTF are not dissimilar, once you factor in D Hanns’ kind omission in respect of ST.
However the co-author of NR produces an altogether new version which been drip fed onto this forum culminating in his statement,



> The only fiasco to do with Nolan was the sledgehammer you brought in to crack a nut and fuck up what could have been a potential intelligence benefit and also to save the fellahs family from a very unpleasant fate. It was me who done the leg work on that only for your lot to typically fuck it up.


 

bignose1, May 31, 2012

This new twist on an old story is one which I could not leave unchallenged because it is the inverse of what actually happened. My position in summary is as below.


> Nolan knew people that we knew, and, a far more pragmatic strategy, and one that could possibly have led to an intelligence dividend would have been to make the approaches through these channels, unfortunatetly by the time I got involved, you had already set in play a strategy which wrecked his car three times, attacked his house, scared the shit out of his wife and kids, outed him (and his wife) in the Manchester Evening News (and to their employers) and then double crossed AFA into the bargain.


 

Demu, Monday at 1:59 PM

The personal abuse which littered some of the following posts in this exchange are a poor attempt to derail the debate on this specific event. I have no interest in trading at this level, but the antidote, as ever is to put the facts on here and people can make their own minds up.

What gives the game away, in this story is the timeline of the events, the sequence of which ST shuffles to the point at which they are almost incoherent, but very telling. 





> The truth is you spiteful cunt that I located the South Manchester Organiser…... I never hid this from Dave...we'd been doing a bit of stuff together. But once I found out who he was and the personal ties which were LF's and CK's primarily so there was some time in between, I immediately called him and arranged a meeting on my own. I put it to him that he was in serious trouble and he realised that. I then tried to work out a strategy that would get him out of a sticky situation. However by that time others took it upon themeselves to attack him..and I had no influence on that…… The Evening News article was before the relationships came to light....Clifford is a liar and will go to no ends to fulfill his and his cohorts agenda.



bignose1, Tuesday at 1:22 PM

After uncovering the identity and address, a campaign of harassment commences against a BNP organiser. When this campaign was in full swing what did ST do to try and stop the attacks. He outs him and his family in the Manchester Metro and puts them on offer to everyone, employers included.

Some time later, after AFA have met Nolan and assured him the matter is closed, ST now claims from here on in, that he did his best to protect Nolan and his family from the potential threat. Doesn’t add up does it but it seems this didn’t stop ST from using a non existent potential threat to ingratiate himself with his intelligence target.

It is only after Nolan is exposed in the Metro that relationships between Nolan’s wife and others comes to light. The concern expressed at AFA’s tactics convinced ST the strategy had backfired and adjustment of his position was needed. This is when ST for personal and/or political reasons, puts distance between himself and AFA and presents himself as the mediator rather than the ringmaster. This leads him to renege on the meeting between Nolan and AFA which he had set up.

So in the five or so weeks that this saga had been running prior to my involvement, the campaign had rolled on, he was exposed in the papers and had now agreed to meet AFA and ST. Only when this meeting goes awry, do I get contacted. 

I was involved for about 5 days in all. From receiving the call off Dave, and cross referencing it with Gerry, my first call was to Dave to go back to ST and re-arrange the meeting, Dave’s understanding was this was a JV from day one and his omission now made him and AFA looking foolish. The quick win was for Dave and Steve to get back together and sit down with Nolan. 

The re-arranged meeting was again pulled by ST, this time claiming that Nolan had reneged. Ten minutes later when I ring Nolan direct, I find that this is also untrue. 

My second call was to Dessie Noonan, an anti fascist that I had worked with for ten years whilst I was in Manchester. This person had lived in the same area of south Manchester as Nolan for over ten years, and had extensive contacts in the area. Within a day he had contacted someone who worked with Nolan and passed a message on.

There are compelling reasons to suggest that ST should have gone to DN at the outset rather than trigger an AFA campaign. This would have avoided AFA members taking incredibly stupid risks, it would have avoided the harassment that Nolans wife and children had to suffer, it would have avoided the need to expose Nolan and his family in the papers (although I do applaud the ST efforts to put this to rights), and it would have ended with the same result, ie the BNP branch dissolving. How do I know? Because the precedent had already been set a few years previously. ( Malatesta32 take note, there’s a story here that has as yet not seen light of day)

The harsh reality of this story is that this was an intelligence led fuck up from the start and the whole situation was driven by the unaccountable self proclaimed head of intelligence for Manchester. When it went wrong he blamed others. Then and now.


----------



## malatesta32 (Jun 10, 2012)

duly noted demu!


----------



## audiotech (Jun 10, 2012)

malastesta32, did you get my PM?


----------



## malatesta32 (Jun 10, 2012)

hey techy, i did! he has just tried resurfacing with the NF and watmough is doing his nut on VNNuk! he initiated a coup a couple of years back then resigned no doubt in the usual cloud of acrimony. you got to give him credit, he keeps trying. however, fash reckon his drinking and fear after getting bottled have badly affected him.


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## Citizen66 (Jun 10, 2012)

Demu, it's difficult to separate what you're saying from people you're quoting.


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## The39thStep (Jun 10, 2012)

We need Liam back for editing advice


----------



## Demu (Jun 10, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> Demu, it's difficult to separate what you're saying from people you're quoting.


 
Noted and edited accordingly.


----------



## bignose1 (Jun 10, 2012)

Demu said:


> Butchers, Miktheword, Malatesta32 et al. I note your comments. I too, thought this matter had been left in the ‘agree to differ’ file, following previous posts on this matter.
> 
> The versions of this little anecdote in NR and BTF are not dissimilar, once you factor in D Hanns’ kind omission in respect of ST.
> However the co-author of NR produces an altogether new version which been drip fed onto this forum culminating in his statement,
> ...


Entertaining stuff Denis but heres someone...you....out of the Manchester scene effectively for 10/12 years trying to run the show on a little trip back home(sic) Not good enough mate.You had Porky out of his face on weed and Dave running about for a time with that clown Turner. Regards going to DN. Well his priorities at that time I think focussed elsewhere and Im not getting drawn into that but what you are attempting to do with the benefit of hindsight is fit it to your agenda. A well used tactic and it can appear quite compelling to the outsider. One thing though. The person involved knows the real story and that is something you havnt got. Regards intelligence fuck up. I was appointed by AFA for that role for a number of reasons. One because I was good. I had led a succesful infiltration into MCR BNP a few years previously and a number of other investigations which led to exposure of racist/fascist activity. None required DN and none required a shed load of people in the know. You dont get it Denis. Its not hard to follow...what is your problem. You have no experience in this field so leave and stop making yourself look foolish.


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## audiotech (Jun 10, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> hey techy, i did!


 
There's more, I've PM'd you.


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## Citizen66 (Jun 10, 2012)

Demu said:


> Noted and edited accordingly.



Thanks.


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## Demu (Jun 10, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Entertaining stuff Denis but heres someone...you....out of the Manchester scene effectively for 10/12 years trying to run the show on a little trip back home(sic) Not good enough mate.You had Porky out of his face on weed and Dave running about for a time withn that clown Turner. Regards going to DN. Well his priorities at that time I think focussed elsewhere and Im not getting drawn into that but what you are attempting to do with the benefit of hindsight is fit it to your agenda. A well used tactic and it can appear quite compelling to the outsider. One thing though. The person involved knows the real story and that is something you havnt got. Regards intelligence fuck up. I was appointed by AFA for that role for a number of reasons. One because I was good. I had led a succesful infiltration into MCR BNP a few yeras previously and a number of other investigations which led to exposure of racist/facsist activity. None required DN and none required a shed load of people in the know. You dont get it Denis. Its not hard to follow...what is your problem. You have no experience in this field so leave and stop making yourself look foolish.


 
Good to see we are back on first name terms.....really was no need for the hissyfit was there Steven?

As ever you cast aspersions and then move on. Why don't we close out the Nolan case then we can talk about what other aspersions you want to cast.


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## bignose1 (Jun 11, 2012)

Demu said:


> Good to see we are back on first name terms.....really was no need for the hissyfit was there Steven?
> 
> As ever you cast aspersions and then move on. Why don't we close out the Nolan case then we can talk about what other aspersions you want to cast.


its ph Denis...come on old chap!!


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## Nigel (Jun 11, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> nigel, is the ali book worth a look? does it tell us anything we dont already know?


As far as I can work out it is the work of a fantasist; however cut into this 'anthology' are elements of 'truths' more likely from the perspective of Hope Not Hate camp.
However cannot really say to be honest.

Perhaps someone like P. Model, Paul Marsh or Larry O'Hara would be more in the know.


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## malatesta32 (Jun 11, 2012)

it doesnt appear in the usual antifash biblios and has a dreadful title. thanks. thats saved me a few quid.


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## bignose1 (Jun 11, 2012)

When I led the infiltration in 1990 of the Manchester & Salford BNP Branch they refused to accept that it took place and that it was a fake plot. This was I think, in the main, an attempt to hoodwink the BNP national leadership. Interest in this has recently resurfaced on the in a couple of 'blogs' mainly on the back of the 'Gordon Gee' tapes being released last month. I will, later this week post up some of the primary material that will put that one to bed. If youv'e not listened to the 'Gee' tapes on the antifascist archive then I would...and although I sound like a t**t ( yes I did have a head start though) because it reveals their two tier approach of a)harrassment of the jewish community b)respectable activity.They were though a thoroughly nasty outfit at that time. There are some video recordings that RS is likely to post up on the archive at some point soon I think, which were taken during this period which offer an insight into what they were about in those days and the anti semitism that permeated the local BNP scene.


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## Red Storm (Jun 11, 2012)

The archive has had a bit of a reorganisation and update.


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## krink (Jun 12, 2012)

Red Storm, the archive is getting better and better. thanks for the effort. Have you considered mirroring it somewhere just to be on the safe side?


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## malatesta32 (Jun 12, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> The archive has had a bit of a reorganisation and update.


got to agree with krink there storm. you have done a top job and made my bloody life easier!


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## bignose1 (Jun 12, 2012)

Anthony Hancock the publisher of Holocaust News and other assorted rags died yesterday. Searchlighht commented on what will happen to his publishing premises....answers on a post card....but not from you Manny...


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## malatesta32 (Jun 12, 2012)

maybe he is going to be cremated - next to his printers!


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## butchersapron (Jun 12, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Anthony Hancock the publisher of Holocaust News and other assorted rags died yesterday. Searchlighht commented on what will happen to his publishing premises....answers on a post card....but not from you Manny...


Who's getting the money?


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## malatesta32 (Jun 12, 2012)

he was a tyndallite wasnt he but printed for most fash groups. dunno what his relationship with griffclops is tho. NF?


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## Red Storm (Jun 12, 2012)

krink said:


> Red Storm, the archive is getting better and better. thanks for the effort. Have you considered mirroring it somewhere just to be on the safe side?


 
I think it's pretty safe as its a wordpress and one of the updates I got for it secures the uploaded material for the future. I've also got it all backed up onto its own memory stick. 

I might mirror it in the future though.


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## bignose1 (Jun 12, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Who's getting the money?


He was on the verge of bankruptcy Butchers....it'll be interesting to see the array of c***s at his funeral...


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## Louis MacNeice (Jun 12, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Anthony Hancock the publisher of Holocaust News and other assorted rags died yesterday. Searchlighht commented on what will happen to his publishing premises....answers on a post card....but not from you Manny...


 
Wasn't he down in Hove with premises in Uckfield or some such; it's along time since I've heard of him.
Any idea where the funeral will be?

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


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## butchersapron (Jun 12, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> He was on the verge of bankruptcy Butchers....it'll be interesting to see the array of cunts at his funeral...


How the hell did he manage that!


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## Fozzie Bear (Jun 12, 2012)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Wasn't he down in Hove with premises in Uckfield or some such; it's along time since I've heard of him.
> Any idea where the funeral will be?
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice


 
He rented out some flats in Brighton, certainly. A mate of mine had him as his landlord


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## bignose1 (Jun 12, 2012)

Fozzie Bear said:


> He rented out some flats in Brighton, certainly. A mate of mine had him as his landlord


Yeah he had the Heidleberg Guest House...Madeira Gardens/Place!/!? Had a few snoops round there in his bins way back....was one of the loosest fuckers we did...sometimes thought he was deliberately feeding stuff....more likekly a lazy t**t


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## Red Storm (Jun 12, 2012)

Loads of newspaper articles in pdf format here.


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## bignose1 (Jun 13, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> When I led the infiltration in 1990 of the Manchester & Salford BNP Branch they refused to accept that it took place and that it was a fake plot. This was I think, in the main, an attempt to hoodwink the BNP national leadership. Interest in this has recently resurfaced on the in a couple of 'blogs' mainly on the back of the 'Gordon Gee' tapes being released last month. I will, later this week post up some of the primary material that will put that one to bed. If youv'e not listened to the 'Gee' tapes on the antifascist archive then I would...and although I sound like a t**t ( yes I did have a head start though) because it reveals their two tier approach of a)harrassment of the jewish community b)respectable activity.They were though a thoroughly nasty outfit at that time. There are some video recordings that RS is likely to post up on the archive at some point soon I think, which were taken during this period which offer an insight into what they were about in those days and the anti semitism that permeated the local BNP scene.


 Here is some of the correspondence involving'Phil' and the local and national BNP . ( the address on Wood Lane was a probation hostel.


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## butchersapron (Jun 13, 2012)

Anyone remember what happened with the Joey Owens/dowson _'court case'?_


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## malatesta32 (Jun 13, 2012)

remind us butchers! but if its anything like the lecomber/owens things - oh dear! 'diamond' jim currently flogging the 'britain first' family friendly fash loser outfit. crivvens!


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## malatesta32 (Jun 14, 2012)

Malatesta reaches 100! Hurrah! 
http://malatesta32.wordpress.com/


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## cantsin (Jun 14, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> Loads of newspaper articles in pdf format here.


 
looking at the Battle of Waterloo photos on there, the ones on the bridge from behind the Anti Fa with longish hair, blue top, who takes on 6/7  skins by windmilling furiously, I'd never noticed the black bloke to his left - he's got another pack of skins running towards him, and he looks like he's taking a bloody step - fwd - having seen the white bloke in the video,and how he fends them off before they move on,  it's obvious they;re doing exactly the right thing, staying up right, throwing punches, not trying to run and get caught/tripped / battered etc, but it's got to take some bollocks to keep your head like that under those circumstances, do people know them ? w/o naming names etc, were they faces / stewards etc ? or unknown warriors ? what happened to them ?


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## cantsin (Jun 14, 2012)

cantsin said:


> looking at the Battle of Waterloo photos on there, the ones on the bridge from behind the Anti Fa with longish hair, blue top, who takes on 6/7 skins by windmilling furiously, I'd never noticed the black bloke to his left - he's got another pack of skins running towards him, and he looks like he's taking a bloody step - fwd - having seen the white bloke in the video,and how he fends them off before they move on, it's obvious they;re doing exactly the right thing, staying up right, throwing punches, not trying to run and get caught/tripped / battered etc, but it's got to take some bollocks to keep your head like that under those circumstances, do people know them ? w/o naming names etc, were they faces / stewards etc ? or unknown warriors ? what happened to them ?


 (blondish lad looks a bit like someone I came accross from RA, but who was a bit smarter dressed, shorter hair, dont know if its the same bloke )


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## TopCat (Jun 14, 2012)

cantsin said:


> looking at the Battle of Waterloo photos on there, the ones on the bridge from behind the Anti Fa with longish hair, blue top, who takes on 6/7 skins by windmilling furiously, I'd never noticed the black bloke to his left - he's got another pack of skins running towards him, and he looks like he's taking a bloody step - fwd - having seen the white bloke in the video,and how he fends them off before they move on, it's obvious they;re doing exactly the right thing, staying up right, throwing punches, not trying to run and get caught/tripped / battered etc, but it's got to take some bollocks to keep your head like that under those circumstances, do people know them ? w/o naming names etc, were they faces / stewards etc ? or unknown warriors ? what happened to them ?


I know of most of them. I saw the "blonde fella" at last years Notting Hill carnival. He was doing well and still (unlike may of us) has most of his hair. Respect to him and them and all the anti fascists.


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## malatesta32 (Jun 17, 2012)

joe discussed this earlier in this thread. the other guy with the glasses chap is also on the front of BTF. dont make me go thru the thread again, its huge!


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## Red Storm (Jun 18, 2012)

Another Weekly Update on the Anti-Fascist Archive.


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## malatesta32 (Jun 19, 2012)

nice one storm! love the hang drug pushers thing. cos overyone knows no fash use drugs. or child porn.


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## malatesta32 (Jun 20, 2012)

crivvens! the re-emergence of colin jordan 'hitler's milkman':
https://liveraf.wordpress.com/2012/06/19/liverpools-secret-holocaust-denying-nazi-author/


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## butchersapron (Jun 20, 2012)

Not really news  - and despite the last lines, his writings are not 'academic' - not in the sense they mean anyway.


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## butchersapron (Jun 20, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> remind us butchers! but if its anything like the lecomber/owens things - oh dear! 'diamond' jim currently flogging the 'britain first' family friendly fash loser outfit. crivvens!


Owens claimed he been charged with intimidating Dowson a few years back. Given his record i was wondering if anything came of 'it'.


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## malatesta32 (Jun 20, 2012)

aint heard of the case butchers. owens was griffins strong arm but was replaced with tommy williams and his covert eejits who used smear tactics on the web. owens has a pretty long criminal record and has been up on murder charges several times but even the fash think he's a heedcase. he is currently 'john the baptist' on shirtfront and is always entertaining in a 'im a nutjob watch me wobble' kind of way!


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## The39thStep (Jun 21, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> crivvens! the re-emergence of colin jordan 'hitler's milkman':
> https://liveraf.wordpress.com/2012/06/19/liverpools-secret-holocaust-denying-nazi-author/


 
Didn't his father fight for the Republicans in the Spanish Civil war?


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## The39thStep (Jun 21, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> aint heard of the case butchers. owens was griffins strong arm but was replaced with tommy williams and his covert eejits who used smear tactics on the web. owens has a pretty long criminal record and has been up on murder charges several times but even the fash think he's a heedcase. he is currently 'john the baptist' on shirtfront and is always entertaining in a 'im a nutjob watch me wobble' kind of way!


 
I seem to remember some time ago that Owens and the BNP youth leader were involved in a contra temps with some posters on here possibly outside Salford University?


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## bignose1 (Jun 21, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> I seem to remember some time ago that Owens and the BNP youth leader were involved in a contra temps with some posters on here possibly outside Salford University?


 Thats right with the little cocky dick Tony Wentworth...Owens doesnt like going out of Liverpool so it was unusual to see him off his patch.


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## ayatollah (Jun 22, 2012)

Message for you, Bignose, from an auld comrade who wishes to be known as "Loose Cannon". Message reads , " I've got my eye on you".


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## malatesta32 (Jun 22, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> Didn't his father fight for the Republicans in the Spanish Civil war?


yeah i think he did. much to his mortal shame apparently!


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## butchersapron (Jun 22, 2012)

Let that be a lesson to all parents, don't play that shitty rebel music all the time, your kids hate it and will grow to hate you.


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## bignose1 (Jun 22, 2012)

ayatollah said:


> Message for you, Bignose, from an auld comrade who wishes to be known as "Loose Cannon". Message reads , " I've got my eye on you".


Message to Loose Cannon...have you got big tits and like spanking....


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## bignose1 (Jun 22, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> yeah i think he did. much to his mortal shame apparently!


When I visited the BM office back in the very early 80's when it was in Shotton....I bumped into McLaughlin on his way back from the Post Office. I blagged him a little bit and he said that if I came back in a hour we could have a chat. As I was waiting outside the front door I thought bollox he's probably a boring c**t so I just prised off the black phoenix door knocker and pegged it. Still got it.


----------



## TopCat (Jun 22, 2012)

Is this thread turning into some sort of rehab for Tilzey here?


----------



## bignose1 (Jun 22, 2012)

TopCat said:


> Is this thread turning into some sort of rehab for Tilzey here?


In what sense TC....


----------



## bignose1 (Jun 22, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> In what sense TC....


In fact Ill anticipate what I think you mean.....so fuck off. Rehabilitation...you cheeky twat.And you are.....?????


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## The39thStep (Jun 22, 2012)

TopCat said:


> Is this thread turning into some sort of rehab for Tilzey here?


 
Think we need to move on from this.We know the differences  and we have had more than enough debate , no one is going to change their mind  or view and no point going round in circles.


----------



## bignose1 (Jun 22, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> Think we need to move on from this.We know the differences and we have had more than enough debate , no one is going to change their mind or view and no point going round in circles.


39..it aint going to happen with these lot. More about their shortcomings than anything to do with me I reckon. Their mutual spanking circle hasnt grown...just dishing out snidier slaps.


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## bignose1 (Jun 22, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Message to Loose Cannon...have you got big tits and like spanking....


Think Ive sussed it.....no probs Roy..xxxxx


----------



## bignose1 (Jun 22, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> Think we need to move on from this.We know the differences and we have had more than enough debate , no one is going to change their mind or view and no point going round in circles.


They came on here to offload personal insults not really to promote a book. They then dissappear for a while until theyve thought of something else to winge about. Sad twats.


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## malatesta32 (Jun 23, 2012)

the BM mainly drew on skinheads as foot soldiers but they never achieved anything apart from a wee bit of a street presence, they were damaged by ray hill/searchloght intervention, nicky crane was also a leading figure and he typifies them prety much. they're no much the now!


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## manny-p (Jun 23, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> the BM mainly drew on skinheads as foot soldiers but they never achieved anything apart from a wee bit of a street presence


They were responsible for many attacks on immigrants etc. So from their point of view they achieved a fair bit.


----------



## intersol32 (Jun 23, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> the BM mainly drew on skinheads as foot soldiers but they never achieved anything apart from a wee bit of a street presence, they were damaged by ray hill/searchloght intervention, nicky crane was also a leading figure and he typifies them prety much. they're no much the now!


 
They were much more openly nazi, and presented themselves in a paramiltary fashion. Which (lets face it) given the track record of similar far-right groups, is never going to endear itself to the population in general. They also tend to become magnets for complete nutjobs and various state agents.

To confirm this in a more up to date example, you'd only have to check Malatesta's recent post on the EDL watch thread about "grasses rife in CxF" etc.


----------



## malatesta32 (Jun 23, 2012)

they probably realised quite early that they wd never get anywhere electorally so focussed on brownshirt street hassle which provides fun for the eejits at least. lots of skins joined which gave skinheads a bad name.


----------



## audiotech (Jun 23, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> the BM mainly drew on skinheads as foot soldiers but they never achieved anything apart from a wee bit of a street presence, they were damaged by ray hill/searchloght intervention, nicky crane was also a leading figure and he typifies them prety much. they're no much the now!


 
Some linked to the BM attacked the local Trades Club, smashing windows and daubing swastika's. Along with physical violence that manny p references (nasty if you happened to be on the receiving end), that was their sum total in terms of activities - violence and intimidation. _Searchlight_ gave a figure of around 3000 members at the BM's height.

I'd include Gary Bushell in giving skinheads a bad name and he wasn't even a skinhead. A mockney, with dire dress sense, in an attempt to be prolier than thou.


----------



## bignose1 (Jun 23, 2012)

audiotech said:


> Some linked to the BM attacked the local Trades Club, smashing windows and daubing swastika's. Along with physical violence that manny p references (nasty if you happened to be on the receiving end), that was their sum total in terms of activities - violence and intimidation. _Searchlight_ gave a figure of around 3000 members at the BM's height.


Went on an anti BM march in Leamington Spa in late 70's and was perhaps the most drawn out day for aggro ever...skirmishing started around late morning and carried into the late evening.That was a shift and a half. Anyone remember that one. Lewisham was a full day but cant recall anything as full on as that.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 23, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Went on an anti BM march in Leamington Spa in late 70's and was perhaps the most drawn out day for aggro ever...skirmishing started around late morning and carried into the late evening.That was a shift and a half. Anyone remember that one. Lewisham was a full day but cant recall anything as full on as that.


 
Wasn't Relf's house in Leamington ?Can remember the one in Welling and they had a big turn out for a march in Paddington as well. Do you remember the Peter Marriner business?


----------



## bignose1 (Jun 23, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> Wasn't Relf's house in Leamington ?Can remember the one in Welling and they had a big turn out for a march in Paddington as well. Do you remember the Peter Marriner business?


Yeah it was but Ive a feeling this march was a bit after that episode.....when he'd jumped ship and was in the NF. Was at Paddington but got sidetracked in Hyde Park...the Marriner business...yeah had some dealings around that as I was doing some odd days work when Searchlight was in Birmingham. Actually moved them out overnight when they got info about a planned arson on the office...Got some stuff from around that period...think the magazine 'Forewarned' that Dave Roberts did...Ill try and dig out and put up.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 23, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Yeah it was but Ive a feeling this march was a bit after that episode.....when he'd jumped ship and was in the NF. Was at Paddington but got sidetracked in Hyde Park...the Marriner business...yeah had some dealings around that as I was doing some odd days work when Searchlight was in Birmingham. Actually moved them out overnight when they got info about a planned arson on the office...Got some stuff from around that period...think the magazine 'Forewarned' that Dave Roberts did...Ill try and dig out and put up.


 
Fowarned had a loony theory that facsism was actually linked to the aristocracy and landowners  as a class base.


----------



## malatesta32 (Jun 23, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Went on an anti BM march in Leamington Spa in late 70's and was perhaps the most drawn out day for aggro ever...skirmishing started around late morning and carried into the late evening.That was a shift and a half. Anyone remember that one. Lewisham was a full day but cant recall anything as full on as that.


 
seems fairly undocumented in the usual sources. pray tell sir!


----------



## malatesta32 (Jun 23, 2012)

audiotech said:


> Some linked to the BM attacked the local Trades Club, smashing windows and daubing swastika's. Along with physical violence that manny p references (nasty if you happened to be on the receiving end), that was their sum total in terms of activities - violence and intimidation. _Searchlight_ gave a figure of around 3000 members at the BM's height.
> 
> I'd include Gary Bushell in giving skinheads a bad name and he wasn't even a skinhead. A mockney, with dire dress sense, in an attempt to be prolier than thou.


 
yeah i remember that kind of thing. scarey of course but in terms of political efficacy fairly wee. i heard the 3,000 number. some skins i knew where involved but whether they actually 'joined up' or not i dont know or for how long - more like the scarwling of NF on walls etc. and bushell? crivvens! i wasted a quid on that hoolies book. whoever let him near a typewriter?


----------



## audiotech (Jun 23, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> .... whoever let him near a typewriter?


 
_Socialist Worker_ and _Sounds_ music paper.


----------



## bignose1 (Jun 23, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> seems fairly undocumented in the usual sources. pray tell sir!


Il try and find the write up in a back copy of Searchlight...bound to be a report. Remember one guy who tried to infiltrate us on the day..looked a bit iffy but gave a spiel about being local... as it was a scorcher day he took off his black leather jacket and I noticed on the inside lapel a national states rights party pin...bit runic looking....he noticed me clocking it and scarpered. For info....his boat is on the cover of the magazine that 'Camerawork' did on Lewishaham ..arms folded looking pretty hard.....same jacket...


----------



## bignose1 (Jun 23, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> Fowarned had a loony theory that facsism was actually linked to the aristocracy and landowners as a class base.


Not sure about that steps but the said publication as far as I remember was a bit of a mish mash of local intel...a rake of addresess...and some lefty blurb. But his stuff has been considered, in hindsight, a bit on the spooky side and I think it ended quite messy.


----------



## audiotech (Jun 23, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> View attachment 20451
> Il try and find the write up in a back copy of Searchlight...bound to be a report. Remember one guy who tried to infiltrate us on the day..looked a bit iffy but gave a spiel about being local... as it was a scorcher day he took off his black leather jacket and I noticed on the inside lapel a national states rights party pin...bit runic looking....he noticed me clocking it and scarpered. For info....his boat is on the cover of the magazine that 'Camerawork' did on Lewishaham ..arms folded looking pretty hard.....same jacket...



An image I remember well.

Not on the cover as such, but if you scroll down you will see the scrote in question, in the centre of the picture and yes, with arms folded, surrounded by NF heavies. There's that racist loon, Derek Day, to the right of the picture in the background.

I hadn't realised until reading that document that a third of the Metropolitan police were there in force on the day.

http://www.naar.org.uk/larag/0710exhibition.pdf


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## bignose1 (Jun 23, 2012)

audiotech said:


> An image I remember well.
> 
> Not on the cover as such, but if you scroll down you will see the scrote in question, in the centre of the picture and yes, with arms folded, surrounded by NF heavies. There's that racist loon, Derek Day, to the right of the picture in the background.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the correction tech yeah page 9.......but I wonder who he was....dont seem to remember him being on anything after them days...as for Derek Day....was on that march when he pulled a shotgun and pointed it from a window...absolute loon.


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## malatesta32 (Jun 27, 2012)

link to leo regan C18 documentary.
http://www.wretchfalafel.com/2009/06/100-white-dir-leo-regan-2000.html


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## Red Storm (Jun 27, 2012)

Got a first in my AFA dissertation


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## The39thStep (Jun 27, 2012)

I remember Dereck Day getting a hiding inBrick lane one Sunday morning around 1977/8. Same morning we were having a fag just off brick Lane and a group of lads next to us asked for a light .this bloke George who worked at one of the LT engineering works gave him a light then flicked his fag in the blokes face and it kicked off.  George had spotted a NF pin on his top


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## The39thStep (Jun 27, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> Got a first in my AFA dissertation


Fucking academic. 

Well done mate


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## Fozzie Bear (Jun 27, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> I remember Dereck Day getting a hiding inBrick lane one Sunday morning around 1977/8. Same morning we were having a fag just off brick Lane and a group of lads next to us asked for a light .this bloke George who worked at one of the LT engineering works gave him a light then flicked his fag in the blokes face and it kicked off. George had spotted a NF pin on his top


 
Some bits on Excalibur House and Derrick Day here (including the Brick Lane hiding, lifted from AFA's "Heroes and Villains" pamphlet):
http://hackneyhistory.wordpress.com/2012/05/11/the-national-fronts-hackney-hq/


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## Citizen66 (Jun 27, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> link to leo regan C18 documentary.
> http://www.wretchfalafel.com/2009/06/100-white-dir-leo-regan-2000.html


 
Interesting. Didn't mention that they were C18 though I don't think. Just that they were 'neo nazis'.


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## Delroy Booth (Jun 27, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> Got a first in my AFA dissertation


 
Well done man, is there any chance I could get a copy of it off you to read? PM me.


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## malatesta32 (Jun 27, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> Got a first in my AFA dissertation


 
ha ha nice one wee man! well chuffed for you. can i read it now then?


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## malatesta32 (Jun 27, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> Interesting. Didn't mention that they were C18 though I don't think. Just that they were 'neo nazis'.


yeah yr right. its neil parrish tho isnt it. not quite sure who the others are tho. but sad really aint they?


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## bignose1 (Jun 27, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> Got a first in my AFA dissertation


Well done. Get it up!!


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## Fedayn (Jun 27, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> Wasn't Relf's house in Leamington ?Can remember the one in Welling and they had a big turn out for a march in Paddington as well. Do you remember the Peter Marriner business?


 
Aye, Relf lived in Leamington, at the time Colin Jordan lived a few miles up the road in Tile Hill in Coventry.
The BM March you mention was featured in the World in Action programme about the BM, large skinhead contingent on it.


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## bignose1 (Jun 27, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> Aye, Relf lived in Leamington, at the time Colin Jordan lived a few miles up the road in Tile Hill in Coventry.
> The BM March you mention was featured in the World in Action programme about the BM, large skinhead contingent on it.


Lets start a caption comp.


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## bignose1 (Jun 27, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Lets start a caption comp.


David Gower taking bowling practice:-

''Right boys...release the ball at the top of the rotation....keeping slightly side on..........very good''


----------



## bignose1 (Jun 27, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Lets start a caption comp.


Where did that fucker Hill go?..................he went thataway Sir...!


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## Citizen66 (Jun 27, 2012)

None of the young lads look particularly Aryan. The lad on the right not raising his arm certainly doesn't. 

"Excuse me sir. Is this the Stamford Hill Synagogue group?"


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## The39thStep (Jun 27, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> Aye, Relf lived in Leamington, at the time Colin Jordan lived a few miles up the road in Tile Hill in Coventry.
> The BM March you mention was featured in the World in Action programme about the BM, large skinhead contingent on it.


Wonder who the woman is holding the banner? Looks like their teacher!


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## DaveCinzano (Jun 27, 2012)

Rehearsals for the 'Go West'/'YMCA'/'Blame It On The Boogie' medley did not start well.


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## DaveCinzano (Jun 27, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> Wonder who the woman is holding the banner? Looks like their teacher!


 
Or some young tyke on their mate's shoulders trying to get in to see _Black Emmanuelle_ at the local Roxy.


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## Red Storm (Jun 27, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> ha ha nice one wee man! well chuffed for you. can i read it now then?


 
Bit apprehensive about putting it up because I wasn't 100% happy with the AFA section due to time. The first section I was happy with. 

I will put it up tomorrow tonight though.


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## bignose1 (Jun 28, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> Bit apprehensive about putting it up because I wasn't 100% happy with the AFA section due to time. The first section I was happy with.
> 
> I will put it up tomorrow tonight though.


Its a BTF spoiler!!!!   Aaarghhhh


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## bignose1 (Jun 28, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> Wonder who the woman is holding the banner? Looks like their teacher!


Its David Gower........
.....actually I confess to fancying some of the right wing fanny...Marine Le Pen...Francoise Dior...Lady Renouf...Birdwood...Alice Mussolini....in their day that is of course....


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## bignose1 (Jun 28, 2012)

I lied about Birdwood


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## bignose1 (Jun 28, 2012)

I did her bins once.....


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## malatesta32 (Jun 28, 2012)

storm, may i suggest a redraft if you arent overtly keen? still wanna see it tho. well done again!


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## DaveCinzano (Jun 28, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> I did her bins once.....


You silver tongued devil


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## bignose1 (Jun 28, 2012)

DaveCinzano said:


> You silver tongued devil


 Think it was whe she was living in Acton..ground floor flat....Was when I was training up a few people in the early 90's and we'd do some mock surveillance exercises...good fun.


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## bignose1 (Jun 28, 2012)

Couldnt have been Acton...thats not 'central' ( or is it ) Anyway quite posh...but cat shit city....never pleasant anyway. Same with Jonesy up in AUL...his moggy could well pooh for engerrrrlanddd.


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## bignose1 (Jun 28, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Couldnt have been Acton...thats not 'central' ( or is it ) Anyway quite posh...but cat shit city....never pleasant anyway. Same with Jonesy up in AUL...his moggy could well pooh for engerrrrlanddd.


 It was Earls Court Ive been reminded.....


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## audiotech (Jun 28, 2012)

DaveCinzano said:


> You silver tongued devil


 
The Dowager herself. A real nasty piece of work.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Jun 28, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> Bit apprehensive about putting it up because I wasn't 100% happy with the AFA section due to time. The first section I was happy with.
> 
> I will put it up tomorrow tonight though.


 
I'd stick it up anyway mate. You've acknowledged yourself that you think it's not perfect and I think everyone realises you're not intentionally misrepresenting anything - I reckon any criticism you got, on here at least, would be constructive - nobody's gonna act the cunt. And it can't be all that bad if you got a first for it!


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 29, 2012)

I bumped into her and two other old folk giving out some racist and anti semitic  leaflets outside Wembley Town Hall in the early 1980s.  There was a rumour when she died that she left some of her money to Peter Marriner.


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## bignose1 (Jun 29, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> I bumped into her and two other old folk giving out some racist and anti semitic leaflets outside Wembley Town Hall in the early 1980s. There was a rumour when she died that she left some of her money to Peter Marriner.


 Yeah she was an Ipswich fan as well.....


----------



## audiotech (Jun 29, 2012)

Problem solved!


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## Citizen66 (Jun 29, 2012)

audiotech said:


> Problem solved!


 
Oh I dunno. Scratch a hippy...


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jun 29, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> Oh I dunno. Scratch a hippy...


 
Make sure you're up to date with your shots first.


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## Red Storm (Jul 1, 2012)

I've uploaded my dissertation.


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## malatesta32 (Jul 1, 2012)

brilliant stuff yet again! thanks loads for all this work. it is most helpful.


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## The39thStep (Jul 1, 2012)

audiotech said:


> Problem solved!


 


> “We just want to come from a place of light and love,” says Lamb. “I think we’re meant to do something more.
> “We’re healers. We just wanna exert the most love and positivity we can.”
> So presumably they are no longer Holocaust deniers? Lynx hesitates.
> “I think certain things happened. I think a lot of the stories got misconstrued.
> ...


 

By the time I got to Werhmacht
They were half a million strong 
Everywhere there was songs and celebration 
And I dreamed I saw the bombers 
Riding shotgun in the sky 
Turning into butterflies 
Above our nation 

We are stardust, we are golden 
And we've got to get ourselves back to the garden


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## framed (Jul 3, 2012)

Seeing that photo of the BM banner reminded me of a mad night in Edinburgh in the mid-1990's when we (Glasgow AFA) were contacted by Edinburgh AFA about a planned BM meeting that they'd been tipped off about. It appeared at the time that this was a move by some of the more militant Nazis to re-organise themselves because of the battering that we were giving the BNP on the streets. This meeting was ostensibly about re-establishing a BM presence in Scotland, but the reality was that AFA was the real reason behind the meeting, so AFA decided to gatecrash it.

The plan was that we'd allow a fair number of them to gather at the venue and we'd storm it with a strong Scottish AFA mob and beat the fuck out of them, hopefully inflicting such painful memories for them that no-one would ever dare mention the name of the BM in Scotland again.

Well, that was the plan, and it kinda worked, but there were complications that turned the night into both a battle and a bit of a farce.

The meeting place organised by Edinburgh AFA was the main arty farty 'world cinema' venue in Edinburgh, which was directly opposite the pub where the fash were meeting. Not only did our lot stick out like sore thumbs in such a place, but the drink was fcuking expensive and there was a lot of time to be killed before the required numbers of fash would appear. We deployed some of our lot in a pub around the corner, but the main body of AFA stayed in the cinema bar.

We had arrived with a vanload of Celtic casuals and 3 cars filled with other Glasgow AFA activists... The Celtic lads had expected to just jump out of the van and straight into a fight, so they'd obviously stocked up on their 'carry out' for the one hour journey to Edinburgh. By the time they got there, they were already 'happy' and in the mood for a barney. I had to spend a bit of time convincing them that there was no point storming the venue at that moment cos it was almost empty apart from a couple of fash and a 'kissing couple' who were AFA members placed in the pub and who would give us the signal when the time was right for the attack.

We had arrived early and the AFA members from Glasgow and Edinburgh generally knew the script, go easy on the beers (preferably don't drink any alcohol at all) and remain disciplined so as not to attract any unwanted attention from the police or the nice middle class people in the Cinema's bar, where we had gathered.

After about an hour of waiting, the Celtic lads started getting itchy feet, complaining about the price of beer in the posh bar. Some wandered off in search of an off-license to buy some cans, whilst others just started to wander up and down the road outside, which wasn't part of the plan. The Celtic bhoys on the street saw a group of about 8 fash enter the venue, which was more than enough in their opinion and, as we watched from the bar across the road, we suddenly saw a group of CSC (Celtic Soccer Crew) attempt to storm the pub without the rest of us. There was a fight at the door before the lads broke through. One of the senior Edinburgh AFA members asks me, what the fuck are they doing? I replied that it was fucking madness but that we'd have to do it now because the original plan had just been completely fucked up by the drunken over-enthusiasm of the casuals.

Anyway, we all make a bee-line for the venue from which the fash had started fleeing in terror from the Celtic casuals who'd broken into their gathering. This meant that we were able to pick a few off as they came out of the door of the pub. At one point I think there were two or three fash running a gauntlet of about 30 AFA and just being kicked and punched all over the place. Others had been battered inside the pub and got battered again as they tried to escape into the street.

In a comedy moment, Big Al, one of the Glasgow AFA members, knowing the numbers to be overkill, is still standing watching events from the other side of the road, when he signals to me and starts pointing at a telephone box and smiling. I looked over and there's a big bonehead, who had obviously been on his way to the meeting, inside the telephone box either making a phonecall for reinforcements, or pretending to make one in the hope that he will be rendered invisible to us. I just happened to have in my pocket some of the strongest CS gas spray that we'd ever got hold of, so I sauntered over to the phone box and Big Al politely opens the door for me. At this point the bonehead snarls something about 'trying to make a call', which was answered with a full spray of CS gas in eyes, nose and throat. He just collapsed in a heap and was stamped on by me and Big Al. Then we shut the door of the phone box and left him there, curled up in the foetal position.

Meanwhile, another mad situation had developed between one of the Celtic boys and a member of Edinburgh AFA. This was the fella who'd been our 'eyes and ears' inside the pub, along with a young woman AFA member. When it kicked off inside the pub, the Celtic lads had basically attacked everyone in there, believing them to be part of the BM group. The young Edinburgh AFA lad was also a Hibs Casual and when a couple of the Celtic boys had gone for him, he'd produced a cosh and given one of them it over the head, before explaining to him that he was also with AFA. The Celtic lad, being slightly concussed, bleeding and drunk, was furious and kept trying to take revenge on the Hibs lad, slabbering about how "we can't trust these Hibs bastards!" Eventually that situation was defused, but it took a while to calm things down. It was our 'friendly fire' moment.

On the whole it was a victory; the BM had tried to meet and organise themselves into a fighting unit to take on AFA, we'd nipped them in the bud and we never heard of the BM trying to organise themselves in Scotland again after that night, but fuck me we didn't half make it hard for ourselves.




Fedayn said:


>


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## Red Storm (Jul 14, 2012)

Quiet a massive update to the archive has gone up.

More will be added over the weekend so keep an eye out on Weekly Update 10.


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## malatesta32 (Jul 14, 2012)

great stuff. thanks loads!


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## malatesta32 (Jul 15, 2012)

any of the red actioners on here wanna clarify this about liverpool republican march etc?
http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2012/07/497944.html?c=on#c284902


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## Red Storm (Jul 15, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> any of the red actioners on here wanna clarify this about liverpool republican march etc?
> http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2012/07/497944.html?c=on#c284902


 
I don't think there is much to clarify. 

Its a SF event not a 32CSM event. Its clearly a response to being attack at their march the other month. 

The Infidels seem to be wanting to make a link with the movements in the past and show themselves to be more hardline and in the tradition of the nationalist movements of the 80s and 90s than the EDL. Thats why I think they've gone off on this anti-Irish tangent.  

A small potatoes methinks.


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## malatesta32 (Jul 15, 2012)

ha ha yes, theyre as confused over irish politics as they are about the opposition to their own pitiful demos. to be fair it's pretty complex - been writing about blueshirts and IRA etc meself! Crivvens!. the infidels are pretty much NF and therefore into that daft loyalism stuff.


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## intersol32 (Jul 15, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> any of the red actioners on here wanna clarify this about liverpool republican march etc?
> http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2012/07/497944.html?c=on#c284902


 
From what I can tell the event is being organised by the James Larkin Society and the Trade Unions. It's a commemoration that's taken place for some years, and this year will focus on racism and fascism due to the recent attacks by fascists on people and property.

I'm not really paying much attention to the usual Indymedia comments, as it's mostly posted up there by either whackos or far-right mixers.

I'd view this event in a similar manner to the Bloody Sunday commemorations of the past, and the Fash are probably looking at it in a similar manner. This means it'll be fraught with many of the same difficulties no doubt.

Firstly, the cops are likely to be watching the situation closely especially since the NWI etc have been flyposting around it and portraying it as "an IRA March". I'm guessing they'll hope to whip up interest from the Liverpool Loyalist bands, football casuals, EDL types, ex-servicemen and followers in a hope of boosting their numbers. With this in mind (and if it's like the Sean Phelan march) it won't take many to block a road or two and get the cops to reroute it or cancel the thing in the name of public safety.

In the next instance, where its perfectly within anyone's right to turn up and join the march, the notion that carrying a few banners, wearing masks and trying to form another 'blac bloc' will prevent or discourage fascists from having a go is naive in the extreme. In fact it's more likely to attract further police attention and either get people nicked, or kettled (as happened in Bolton etc).

It has to be mentioned again, that the only course of effective action surrounding this and other events is to discreetly organise mobile stewards groups away from the march but who can intervene in a physical manner should it be deemed necessary.


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## framed (Jul 16, 2012)

IMHO, anti-fascists should be wary of Irish republicans setting the political agenda for them, and I say that as a long standing supporter of Irish republicanism and anti-fascism.

The previous march organised by the James Larkin Society/Liverpool Irish Patriots RFB was a red rag to a bull. It was not an _'Irish community event'_ as has been claimed, it was quite clearly an Irish Republican event to commemorate an obscure IRA volunteer, Sean Phelan from Liverpool, who fought in the war of independence. To try to force a march like that, which did nothing for community relations in Liverpool, through the city centre in the same period as the fascists were regularly picketing the Rochdale Nonces Trial was absolutely stupid imho. It simply gave the fash another focal point and they used their new-found unity around the court pickets to build a mob that could block and delay the republican march. In that sense they were right to describe the Sean Phelan Commemoration as a republican 'IRA march' (sic) because that is exactly what it was...

You have to question the political wisdom of organising a march in commemoration of an obscure IRA volunteer (just because he was born in LIverpool) at a time when it is fairly obvious that Sinn Fein, the republican 'wing' to which the JLS and Liverpool Irish Patriots are affiliated, is increasingly moving away from such overt displays of support for Irish republican militarism, past and present.

Even if the JLS and the LIPRFB were not affiliated to Sinn Fein, I would still question whether that march was appropriate for any city in England at this time, regardless of which side you take in relation to the GFA and SF's holy grail of the never ending 'peace process'.

The situation now is that the fash have been emboldened by their relative success last time around and are organising against next Saturday's march, which has been conveniently tagged as being a march _'against racism and fascism'_ by the organisers.

I believe that republicans need to take stock and consider the consequences of their actions and whether or not they are seriously contributing anything to the fight against racism and fascism by marching for marching's sake.

If the real effect of our actions is to provide a focal point around which the fascists can build - *at a time when there is no discernable political advantage to be gained by republicans from such marches* - then I believe the republican strategy for marches in England (if it can be called a strategy) to be politically counter-productive.

http://liveraf.wordpress.com/2012/07/13/....rday-21st-july/
BTW, the above post (link) on the Liverpool AF blog is as disingenuous as it is dishonest in trying to play down the connections between an Irish republican flute band and Irish republican militarism.

*"Fascists from North West Infidels, Combined Ex-Forces and Casuals United are already talking big about stopping the Flute Band from marching – and are trying to pin the “IRA” label on them, even though the band have nothing in common with the long officially disarmed paramilitary group."*

"nothing in common" 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Are you being serious? 

FFS, who are you trying to kid - yourselves? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




That type of thoroughly dishonest statement does nothing for the political credibility of republicans and anti-fascists.


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## Red Storm (Jul 16, 2012)

Interesting points. 

I have been in between whether it was a cultural event or if it was purely a militarist event. I think arguments can be made for either side, however, to what extent the Liverpool Irish community comes out for the event has appeared minimal to me.


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## intersol32 (Jul 16, 2012)

I'd pretty much agree with the above assessment.

It would appear at times that the intention of having a couple of RFB's marching through the city is a way of laying down a challenge to the Fascists for attacking the previous event. Going a bit further than 'framed' I'd say that if this is the case it's actually allowing the initiative to be passed over to the Fascists themselves. As an old AFA comrade said to me once; "fight them on your own terms...not theirs". It would almost seem that this event may be in the latter category.

As another long time supporter of the Irish Republican Movement I can understand how members of the Irish Community in Britain feel the necessity to commemorate individuals and events. However, there's sometimes a tendency to ignore the fact that this is indeed Britain, and not the occupied Six Counties. Commemorations and marches have to be balanced with certain sensitivities and carried out in a dignified manner. Otherwise to many onlookers it can just reaffirm the stereotypes of Orange/Green or Catholic/Protestant tribalism.

From an Anti-Fascist perspective I'd say that the emphasis has to be placed on the surrounding Fascist activity. I doubt if any effective physical opposition would be forthcoming from the actual organizers of the event, and lessons from the past have shown that it's the very same people from the Trade Union Movement and PSF who actually condemned such actions for "attracting trouble" even when it was militant Anti-Fascists who saved their necks on the day.

Again, anyone attending should be cautious and discreet.


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## framed (Jul 16, 2012)

ON the issue of cultural/political raised by RS, the question that should be put to the organisers of the Sean Phelan Commemoration is why did Sean Phelan have to be remembered with a march through Liverpool city centre fronted by flute bands in militaristic uniforms?

Why not a meeting, rally, gig (or combination of all three) to discuss Sean Phelan's life and political contribution?

The reality (as Intersol implies is the case with Saturday's march) is that the people who organised the event were throwing down the gauntlet to anyone who cared to oppose them and, to be frank, this has increasingly become the M.O. of this group and other former (P)IRA militarist groupies who have been left high and dry by the political turn of SF, but who have not broken with that organisation and its support groups over here.

I should point out that 3 or 4 years ago it was only the representations that I made to the Cairde organiser in Scotland and the direct intervention of myself and a couple of former AFA/Squad members from Manchester that prevented this same group from Liverpool applying for permission to relaunch the Manchester Martyrs Commemoration by means of a route that would have been suicidal for republicans and anti-fascists. What was their political reasoning then? They had none, other than that they should have the right to march wherever they liked and commemorate whoever and whatever they wanted to...

Make no bones about it, Sinn Fein would cut the flute bands adrift were it not for their paranoia that those who previously worshiped the military struggle of the provos might go over to the dreaded 'dissidents'. Instead of cutting them off, they patronise them by involving them in meaningless fundraising activities (for a political party that is awash with money) and allowing them to indulge their penchant for marching in musical time through English and Scottish towns.

I am not against commemorations and marches, but there's a time to march and there's a time to stand back and take stock politically.


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## framed (Jul 17, 2012)

A further heads-up on this march. Going by some of the posts made by its organisers on the Cairde Bands page, they are proudly boasting of passing all fascist and loyalist threats made against Saturday's march to the police, with whom they appear to be in regular contact and fully co-operating, in keeping with Cairde and Sinn Fein policy.

This should be borne in mind by any militant anti-fascists who intend to be in Liverpool this Saturday. The march will be stewarded by the police, the Cairde stewards will be there to co-operate with the police and keep order on the march, do not expect them to co-operate with militant anti-fascists, on or off the march.


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## malatesta32 (Jul 18, 2012)

clueless fuckbugles on comments about AFA:
http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2012/07/497944.html


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## framed (Jul 18, 2012)

I was tempted to contribute but thought better of it... I made the same points that I made here yesterday on the AFA Ireland facebook page regarding the James Larkin 'anti-racist' march and I can assure you that there are 'fuckbugles' on each side who are intent on pursuing their own selfish little agendas at the expense of working class unity in Liverpool.

Supporters of mainstream Irish republicanism over here have no strategy with regard to their own movement and its aims (which appear to be ever changing) and imho they have no strategy and little to contribute to the fight against racism and fascism, especially as they folow a liberal anti-racist agenda that includes (bizarrely imho) appeals to the British state to protect and steward their marches. This is entirely in keeping with Sinn Fein's new found respect for the police and other state institutions.

If further proof were needed of the liberal pro-state approach, Saturday's event includes two supporters of Searchlight on the platform of speakers.


BTW, just a suggestion, but shouldn't these posts on Liverpool be on a thread of their own, or is it ok to continue with this discussion on the BTF thread?


----------



## malatesta32 (Jul 18, 2012)

it's all part of the same struggle man!


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## malatesta32 (Jul 18, 2012)

as sol said earlier:
'It has to be mentioned again, that the only course of effective action surrounding this and other events is to discreetly organise mobile stewards groups away from the march but who can intervene in a physical manner should it be deemed necessary.'
walking alongside demos means quickly avoiding kettles and being able to breakaway from the main body without being impeded in small groups. im not au fait with the intricacies of republican groups but i would strongly reccomend what framed said above:
'The march will be stewarded by the police, the Cairde stewards will be there to co-operate with the police and keep order on the march, do not expect them to co-operate with militant anti-fascists, on or off the march.'
keep your own council. antifascists attending are not there to support republicans but to act as an antifascist presence in response to a fascist threat. like we are not there to 'protect muslims.'


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## malatesta32 (Jul 18, 2012)

and maybe a thread on this would be good cos theres gonna be a lot of tweets, texts and emails flying about on saturday. i will contact liverAF again.


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## Deareg (Jul 18, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> as sol said earlier:
> 'It has to be mentioned again, that the only course of effective action surrounding this and other events is to discreetly organise mobile stewards groups away from the march but who can intervene in a physical manner should it be deemed *opportune*.'
> walking alongside demos means quickly avoiding kettles and being able to breakaway from the main body without being impeded in small groups. im not au fait with the intricacies of republican groups but i would strongly reccomend what framed said above:
> 'The march will be stewarded by the police, the Cairde stewards will be there to co-operate with the police and keep order on the march, do not expect them to co-operate with militant anti-fascists, on or off the march.'
> keep your own council. antifascists attending are not there to support republicans but to act as an antifascist presence in response to a fascist threat. like we are not there to 'protect muslims.'


 
Corrected for you.


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## malatesta32 (Jul 18, 2012)

ha ha! well corrected sir!


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## Smokeandsteam (Jul 18, 2012)

framed said:


> I was tempted to contribute but thought better of it... I made the same points that I made here yesterday on the AFA Ireland facebook page regarding the James Larkin 'anti-racist' march and I can assure you that there are 'fuckbugles' on each side who are intent on pursuing their own selfish little agendas at the expense of working class unity in Liverpool.
> 
> Supporters of mainstream Irish republicanism over here have no strategy with regard to their own movement and its aims (which appear to be ever changing) and imho they have no strategy and little to contribute to the fight against racism and fascism, especially as they folow a liberal anti-racist agenda that includes (bizarrely imho) appeals to the British state to protect and steward their marches. This is entirely in keeping with Sinn Fein's new found respect for the police and other state institutions.
> 
> ...


 
The analysis put forward by Framed over a number of posts has been absolutely spot on imho.

Looking at the speakers these seem to consist of Billy Hayes from CWU (but wearing his UAF funding/supporting hat) and the NW UAF Regional Chair. So is UAF mobilising for this march and if so to what ends and is the UAF now openly supporting JLS/SF or just the 'working class unity' bit that was tagged on at the 11th hour?

The more you examine it the more incoherent it becomes.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Jul 18, 2012)

Wait, why would there be an organisation linked to (P)SF called the James Larkin Society? Larkin was never a Sinn Fein member or supporter, and his life overlapped with the existence of Sinn Fein for 42 years, so he had no shortage of opportunity to join SF if he wanted to.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jul 18, 2012)

Ja' Larkin and the Daring Boneheads of Mersey.


----------



## framed (Jul 18, 2012)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Wait, why would there be an organisation linked to (P)SF called the James Larkin Society? Larkin was never a Sinn Fein member or supporter, and his life overlapped with the existence of Sinn Fein for 42 years, so he had no shortage of opportunity to join SF if he wanted to.


 
Technically correct Nigel, but Larkin was himself full of political contradictions. His Irish Workers League certainly co-operated with the anti-Treaty IRA, so SF supporters and other republican groups would not view their adoption of him as entirely politically incongruous.

It might be easier to find a left and/or republican group that doesn't claim Larkin and Connolly as their own.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 18, 2012)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Wait, why would there be an organisation linked to (P)SF called the James Larkin Society? Larkin was never a Sinn Fein member or supporter, and his life overlapped with the existence of Sinn Fein for 42 years, so he had no shortage of opportunity to join SF if he wanted to.


 
When Larkin addressed the Dublin Lockout meeting in 1913 it was violently attacked by the police. Those marching in his name on Saturday are demanding the police protect the JLS from the far right. An irony certain to be missed by those involved.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Jul 18, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> clueless fuckbugles on comments about AFA:
> http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2012/07/497944.html


 
In the kerfuffle on there is a reference to page 203 in No Retreat where Hann apparently refers to the 'war in Ireland being a tricky one for AFA'. Which is rather odd.

As from the outset AFA resisted all attempts by a variety of lobbying interests (the Israeli - Palestenian conflict) for example to embrace their pet project as anti-fascist, but AFA always correctly resisted on principle. The principle being that AFA was a single issue organisation.
Accordingly AFA had no position on Ireland either. That was what Red Action was for, if that was your political bent.

That Hann, who was for a time a member of both RA and AFA, still thought it 'tricky' is instructive.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Jul 18, 2012)

framed said:


> Saturday's event includes two supporters of Searchlight on the platform of speakers.


 
Who they?


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Jul 18, 2012)

framed said:


> Technically correct Nigel, but Larkin was himself full of political contradictions. His Irish Workers League certainly co-operated with the anti-Treaty IRA, so SF supporters and other republican groups would not view their adoption of him as entirely politically incongruous.


 
Connolly is a slightly different kettle of fish because he was shot. So although his own political affiliations are completely clear - he was a member of a succession of Marxist organisations and pushed for the founding of a Labour Party - he's easier to falsely claim for various other political projects. But Larkin lived a relatively long life. He was in the IWL (ie the CP) and he was in the Labour Party and he was an independent. But he very specifically never joined or supported a republican group. So generally he's left alone by the likes of Fianna Fail (who have often tried to coopt Connolly on much the same basis that SF do), and in so far as SF do try to retrospectively rewrite his politics they do it very quietly. So I'm a little surprised to see a PSF affiliated Larkin Society.


----------



## framed (Jul 18, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> Who they?


 
Alec McFadden, ostensibly representing the local Trades Union Council, but long time associate of Searchlight. He was a founding member and activist with TWAFA before he moved to Merseyside.

The other, as far as I am aware, is the UAF fella previously mentioned.


----------



## malatesta32 (Jul 18, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> In the kerfuffle on there is a reference to page 203 in No Retreat where Hann apparently refers to the 'war in Ireland being a tricky one for AFA'. Which is rather odd.
> 
> As from the outset AFA resisted all attempts by a variety of lobbying interests (the Israeli - Palestenian conflict) for example to embrace their pet project as anti-fascist, but AFA always correctly resisted on principle. The principle being that AFA was a single issue organisation.
> Accordingly AFA had no position on Ireland either. That was what Red Action was for, if that was your political bent.
> ...


those bugles clearly havent understood that AFA was a very broad outfit and are talking shite on indymedia.


----------



## Fedayn (Jul 18, 2012)

Some good comments and posts from framed. Certainly gives folk a wider and more amalytical look at the demo and what surrounds it.


----------



## Red About Town (Jul 18, 2012)

I know recently there was a discussion about BTF at the Oxford Working Class History month and one also last year in Belfast at the Anti Racism World Cup. Were any of these discussions ever recorded in any format (video/audio)?


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 18, 2012)

Smokeandsteam said:


> The analysis put forward by Framed over a number of posts has been absolutely spot on imho.
> 
> Looking at the speakers these seem to consist of Billy Hayes from CWU (but wearing his UAF funding/supporting hat) and the NW UAF Regional Chair. So is UAF mobilising for this march and if so to what ends and is the UAF now openly supporting JLS/SF or just the 'working class unity' bit that was tagged on at the 11th hour?
> 
> The more you examine it the more incoherent it becomes.


 
Well spotted re working class unity, its become a well parroted phrase meaning anything to anyone or nothing at all.


----------



## bignose1 (Jul 19, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> In the kerfuffle on there is a reference to page 203 in No Retreat where Hann apparently refers to the 'war in Ireland being a tricky one for AFA'. Which is rather odd.
> 
> As from the outset AFA resisted all attempts by a variety of lobbying interests (the Israeli - Palestenian conflict) for example to embrace their pet project as anti-fascist, but AFA always correctly resisted on principle. The principle being that AFA was a single issue organisation.
> Accordingly AFA had no position on Ireland either. That was what Red Action was for, if that was your political bent.
> ...


 
(PH???)


----------



## malatesta32 (Jul 19, 2012)

Red About Town said:


> I know recently there was a discussion about BTF at the Oxford Working Class History month and one also last year in Belfast at the Anti Racism World Cup. Were any of these discussions ever recorded in any format (video/audio)?


love detective had mentioned that the talk on BTF was going to be recorded to pu on RA website. dunno if it was but i wd really like to get a listen. cd it go on AFA archive for the moment till the RA thing is ready?


----------



## malatesta32 (Jul 19, 2012)

Smokeandsteam said:


> The analysis put forward by Framed over a number of posts has been absolutely spot on imho.
> 
> Looking at the speakers these seem to consist of Billy Hayes from CWU (but wearing his UAF funding/supporting hat) and the NW UAF Regional Chair. So is UAF mobilising for this march and if so to what ends and is the UAF now openly supporting JLS/SF or just the 'working class unity' bit that was tagged on at the 11th hour?
> 
> The more you examine it the more incoherent it becomes.


it seems the fash are the only ones with a unified idea of what this march is about - even if it is completely wrong.


----------



## love detective (Jul 19, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> love detective had mentioned that the talk on BTF was going to be recorded to pu on RA website. dunno if it was but i wd really like to get a listen. cd it go on AFA archive for the moment till the RA thing is ready?


 
There was a bit of a mixup on the day unfortunately which meant the thing wasn't filmed as planned


----------



## malatesta32 (Jul 19, 2012)

love detective said:


> There was a bit of a mixup on the day unfortunately which meant the thing wasn't filmed as planned


 
aaargh! right you lot are coming up here and doing it me nans front room! laggards and bludgers!


----------



## Red Storm (Aug 2, 2012)

New update to the archive. 

I've got myself a scanner now and as I'm now unemployed there should be a lot more updates.


----------



## Deareg (Aug 2, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> New update to the archive.
> 
> I've got myself a scanner now and as I'm now unemployed there should be a lot more updates.


Get a job ya bum.


----------



## Red Storm (Aug 2, 2012)

Some people might be interested in some of the essays I've put up too.

Specifically the one on the SWP and anti-fascism in the 1970s.


----------



## malatesta32 (Aug 2, 2012)

absolutely brilliant stuff. cheers!


----------



## audiotech (Aug 2, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> New update to the archive.


 
Grammar alert on the home page and a 404 'page not found error' - point 5 - on weekly update #11.


----------



## malatesta32 (Aug 6, 2012)

didnt quite now where to put this but what do folk think of richard clutterbuck (no spins on his name please)? either copsey or renton [?] were suitably scathing about him being a crank/ex-intel type. any ideas?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 6, 2012)

Is this the 'Media And Political Violence' (etc) Clutterbuck?


----------



## malatesta32 (Aug 7, 2012)

yeah it is, there is some interesting stuff but for some reason he sees militant antifascism in a not great light!!! im sure hes ex-intel tho.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 7, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> yeah it is, there is some interesting stuff but for some reason he sees militant antifascism in a not great light!!! im sure hes ex-intel tho.


 
The blurb on the back of the nearest Clutterbuck I have to hand describes him as a former British Army Major-General, an academic at the University of Exeter, and formerly of the BBC Advisory Council.

A while since I read him, but in my head he appears to be filed alongside Paul Wilkinson as '80s era go-to writer for opinions on political violence'.


----------



## malatesta32 (Aug 7, 2012)

yeah something that matthew goodwin has now cornered!


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 7, 2012)

Just flicked through Dorril's _MI6_ doorstop - Clutterbuck has a passing mention as advising that a 1994 conference on terrorism be reorientated around drug trafficking, as 'there's hardly any terrorism in Europe these days'


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 7, 2012)

Here's a way to while away a few hours of a wet Monday afternoon - find modern analogues for...

Claire Sterling
Peter Hain
David Caute
Paul Wilkinson
Richard Clutterbuck


----------



## malatesta32 (Aug 7, 2012)

speaking of goodwin! 
http://apps.facebook.com/theguardian/commentisfree/2012/aug/07/respond-far-right-web-threat


----------



## malatesta32 (Aug 7, 2012)

cheers DC, shall get on to em after i have dealt with the NF by walker!


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 7, 2012)

AYKROYD







GOODWIN


----------



## malatesta32 (Aug 8, 2012)

that's savage!


----------



## malatesta32 (Aug 8, 2012)

oswald mosley 






terry thomas


----------



## Red Storm (Aug 9, 2012)

New update!


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 10, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> oswald mosley
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well I say!


----------



## malatesta32 (Aug 10, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> New update!


 
brilliant. gonna print off yr thesis today when i can sort out this stupid printer.


----------



## bignose1 (Aug 10, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> oswald mosley
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 ''Hard Cheese.......''


----------



## Joe Reilly (Aug 18, 2012)

[/quote]

Just read the BNP 'bombshell' of the EDL. Obviously self-serving but appears to be well researched (possibly with the help of someone on the inside) and does have some genuinely interesting stuff which confirms  more than a few suspicions about the rise and curious nature of the EDL.  

Though that might be because I hadn't been paying sufficient attention.

Odd though given the focus on and fascination with the EDL both in the media and on the left that it took a fascist to do it?

I also find it a little surpising  that it dosen't seem to warrant a mention on Urban and also seems to getting the cold-shoulder on Stromfront too.

To my mind it more than resembles Larry O' H's exploration of Hope not Hate and the equally tangled web of string-pullers that lie behind it. 

And with Nick Lowles claims about the threat the EDL supposedly represented, more than a touch symbiotic too.

 From the off for seasoned anti-fascists there was always something artifcial about the EDL.

For example in the early days an EDL rep appeared on the one of the Man U discussion sites. 'He' was on for near 24 hours solid, when 'Demu' asked him one simple question - 'What is the EDL end game?' Innoccous enough you might think. but it did cause the EDL propaganda offensive to instantly abort.

It is only when you read the dissection of the EDL that you understand why it was a question that proved impossible to answer.


----------



## Red Storm (Aug 18, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> Just read the BNP 'bombshell' of the EDL. Obviously self-serving but appears to be well researched (possibly with the help of someone on the inside) and does have some genuinely interesting stuff which confirms more than a few suspicions about the rise and curious nature of the EDL.
> 
> Though that might be because I hadn't been paying sufficient attention.
> 
> ...


 

Have you got a link to the article?


----------



## laptop (Aug 18, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> Have you got a link to the article?


 
Would that be http://www DOT bnp DOT org DOT uk/news/national/edl-exposed ?


----------



## audiotech (Aug 18, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> I also find it a little surpising that it dosen't seem to warrant a mention on Urban...


 
It did warrant a mention on here.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Aug 19, 2012)

audiotech said:


> It did warrant a mention on here.


 
Fair enough. I did warn I wasn't paying attention. I'm not entirely convinced that the video and the printed speech - though they share a theme - are actually identical.

Be that as it may what still strikes me as curious is that here you have what Griffin describes as a 'false nationalism' being opposed by what O'Hara showed to be a 'false anti-fascism' and why so few on here have anything worthwhile to say on it.

It seems to me the implications could hardly be more profound.

The other of curiousity is the role of the media. I distinctly remember Paxman on Newsnight fairly early on referring to the 'EDL' as if it was of an established vintage and what a contrast it was with the media generally who after twenty years of the 'Troubles' could hardly distinguish their UDA's from their UDR's (republicans might argue that there wasn't much to distinguish them anyway) never mind their UVF's.

So we have a far-right grouping that comes out of nowhere, can put thousands on the streets at a moment's notice and the curiousity of the media ends with uncovering the nom de guerre of Mr Lennon. And that (apart from the digging up of Alan Lake by the Sunday Times) was it. As is now evident Lake himself is pretty small fry, in the wider scheme of things.

Official anti-fascism dosen't come out of it any better pulled hither and thither. Manipulated from within and without. First, the EDL are denounced as an adjunct to the BNP. Then they are cast as an _alternative_ to the BNP. Nick Lowles announces that they are the 'most dangerous street presence' since the NF in the 1970's, while in fact the EDL were generally law-abiding and compliant with the police and their own stewards (whoever they were?) and all told hardly broke more than a kebab house window, does make comparison with the NF/BM who gloried in all sorts of mayhem, including grisly murders look grotesque.

Then the SWP decide the EDL who arevery publicly pro Israel are 'proto fascist' which is not impossible, but does rather rip up their own Holocaust heavy criteria and propaganda. And on it goes.

On stormfront meanwhile Griffin is described as 'a state agent and sell-out' etc while on here genuine anti-fascists are labelled 'Lumpen Strasserites' by an individual (who to some may well appear 'nuttier than squirrel shit', and I quote) is nevertheless a supporter of, and has had sit down meets with leading figures in Hope not Hate, and is pursuing a strategy on here and on other sites of presenting physical force anti-fascism as having been set up and led by mis-fits and gangsters in a style that is practically indistinguishable from that of say C18.

All I'm saying, is that now might be a good for all concerned to take stock.


----------



## audiotech (Aug 19, 2012)

With the benefit of hindsight, yes.


----------



## malatesta32 (Aug 19, 2012)

odd that griffin was attempting to court the edl last year despite the fact 'that the edl was declared a proscribed organisation.' he was happy to appear alongside them at hyde and blackpool with the casuals. then realising he wasnt welcome took a turn against them again. maybe larry is the one to ask?


----------



## malatesta32 (Aug 19, 2012)

Calling Larry O' Hara!


----------



## malatesta32 (Aug 19, 2012)

more from bnp website
The proscription of the EDL was announced in a formal statement by then BNP national organiser Eddy Butler in September 2009 as follows: “The reasons for this proscription are that the English Defence League, through its activities, brings nationalist and patriotic politics into disrepute. If the English Defence League is not instigated by and its activities are not encouraged by the state (which it quite possibly is), then the track record of this organisation shows that it is run by people who will only bring discredit and probable arrest for anyone who attends its events.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Aug 19, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> odd that griffin was attempting to court the edl last year despite the fact 'that the edl was declared a proscribed organisation.' he was happy to appear alongside them at hyde and blackpool with the casuals. then realising he wasnt welcome took a turn against them again. maybe larry is the one to ask?


 
As he now makes clear at every opportunity, Griffin believes the EDL rank and file be laundable and their motives to be entirely genuine, (no doubt he is now looking to court them too) unlike the distant stringpullers/and funders which he has happily outed. The real question is why is was left to the leader of the BNP to out them?


----------



## malatesta32 (Aug 20, 2012)

joe, one possible reason that antifascists have been very cautious about calling the 'edl a zionist front' is that it is using the rhetoric of the hardcore nazis (and also with these nazis, it all boils down to ZOG and 'the joos'). he is also using this new found wisdom to drag the more hardcore racists back to the bnp. im surprised larry aint been on this.


----------



## Fedayn (Aug 20, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> As he now makes clear at every opportunity, Griffin believes the EDL rank and file be laundable and their motives to be entirely genuine, (no doubt he is now looking to court them too) unlike the distant stringpullers/and funders which he has happily outed. The real question is why is was left to the leader of the BNP to out them?


 
Is Griffin right in his remarks/claims you reckon?


----------



## krink (Aug 20, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> Is Griffin right in his remarks/claims you reckon?


 
Be interesting how much was fact as I watched the video of his talk and it sounded like any other conspiracy video you'd find on youtube.


----------



## bignose1 (Aug 20, 2012)

Denis put Gary right about this will you ..........Man U....tut tut


----------



## bignose1 (Aug 20, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> As he now makes clear at every opportunity, Griffin believes the EDL rank and file be laundable and their motives to be entirely genuine, (no doubt he is now looking to court them too) unlike the distant stringpullers/and funders which he has happily outed. The real question is why is was left to the leader of the BNP to out them?


 What else do you believe cyclops on...dearie dearie me...


----------



## Joe Reilly (Aug 20, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> Is Griffin right in his remarks/claims you reckon?


 
In what respect?


----------



## Fedayn (Aug 20, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Denis put Gary right about this will you ..........Man U....tut tut


 
There is no doubt some-small numbers it ahs to be said-Man U have been invovled in some EDL and fash games over the past few years. How that came about is anyone's guess but there have been a small number notable by their presence. Possibly a link via Hibs onto Oldham. Possibly just younger heads not sharing their seniors views. This has happened at Hibs recently.



Joe Reilly said:


> In what respect?


 
As in his claims re 'famnous' political; backers and the EDL string-pullers. What makes you think her's right?


----------



## Red Storm (Aug 20, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> There is no doubt some-small numbers it ahs to be said-Man U have been invovled in some EDL and fash games over the past few years. How that came about is anyone's guess but there have been a small number notable by their presence. Possibly a link via Hibs onto Oldham. Possibly just younger heads not sharing their seniors views. This has happened at Hibs recently.


 
Bound to be United fans involved given the size of the fan base of United.

Maybe less well represented, but, still bound to be involved.


----------



## barney_pig (Aug 20, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> joe, one possible reason that antifascists have been very cautious about calling the 'edl a zionist front' is that it is using the rhetoric of the hardcore nazis (and also with these nazis, it all boils down to ZOG and 'the joos'). he is also using this new found wisdom to drag the more hardcore racists back to the bnp. im surprised larry aint been on this.


I am not so sure about that, for an old friend of mine from the swp days (now a maoist) this was the only relevant point- "the EDL say they are pro Israel, there are israeli flags on their demos, and one of their donors is a 'zionist' THEREFORE the israeli state is fascist and supports fascists"
we don't talk so much nowadays


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 20, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> Bound to be United fans involved given the size of the fan base of United.
> 
> Maybe less well represented, but, still bound to be involved.


 
most of their fan base is overseas


----------



## Joe Reilly (Aug 21, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> There is no doubt some-small numbers it ahs to be said-Man U have been invovled in some EDL and fash games over the past few years. How that came about is anyone's guess but there have been a small number notable by their presence. Possibly a link via Hibs onto Oldham. Possibly just younger heads not sharing their seniors views. This has happened at Hibs recently.
> 
> 
> 
> As in his claims re 'famnous' political; backers and the EDL string-pullers. What makes you think her's right?


 
Personally I always felt there was something off about the EDL from the beginning. For example: how for instance did they get the numbers they did to go to a carpark off the M25 or somewhere and - where nothing happens and as importantly _could_ happen - and yet get them to come back time and again for more? Their unparalled success in their branding with the media. Plus the discipline of the demonstrations when there was no membership as such, so there can be no hierarchy which when you think about means that there is no one actually in charge; in charge in the sense of giving an instruction and having a reasonable expectation that it would be obeyed, especially then when you consider the demographic...  

But I suggest you read the article like I did and make up your own mind.


----------



## Red Storm (Aug 21, 2012)

Liverpool AF have reproduced a Guardian article on it. It also has the report pdf at the bottom.

I don't think I can handle watching NG for 48 mins

P.S. 
New update on the AF Archive


----------



## bignose1 (Aug 21, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> Bound to be United fans involved given the size of the fan base of United.
> 
> Maybe less well represented, but, still bound to be involved.


 Your missing the point...no genuine Man United fan refers to them as Man U.


----------



## krink (Aug 21, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> I don't think I can handle watching NG for 48 mins


 
I did and it's 48 minutes I'm never getting back


----------



## bignose1 (Aug 21, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> Fair enough. I did warn I wasn't paying attention. I'm not entirely convinced that the video and the printed speech - though they share a theme - are actually identical.
> 
> Be that as it may what still strikes me as curious is that here you have what Griffin describes as a 'false nationalism' being opposed by what O'Hara showed to be a 'false anti-fascism' and why so few on here have anything worthwhile to say on it.
> 
> ...


And when Ive got time away from gathering nuts Im spending it colluding with the Hope not Hate lot. Having sit down meets. OK tell me when where and who with and what I do in the set up. How do you know Im not with Gerry? And you describe yourself as a genuine anti fascist....you couldnt even put your name to your fucking book... With the last lot of shite youve been posting I think people can see youve sold out good and proper.
I really dont know much about squirrell shit Gary but I do see plenty of evidence of your creeping paranoia. You spent a lot of time and energy demonizing the likes of myself (and Dave Hann, GP) and Ive tried to put to you your blatant hypocrisy as you hid behind the 'people' you mention. And you know it. You only have to read the threats, vitriol, bile, lies and personal attacks on those people emanating from your RA forum circa 2003 as you threw out your toys and spat out the dummies - a tantrum which nearly ten years later has hardly abated. Your politics are suss..but Im secure in the knowledge that your influence is miniscule and diminishing and nobody will ever again regard you as credible. Some day youll be exposed for what you are. Your rejection of even a basic anti fascist ideology places you firmly in the camp of the opposition and your constant fixation with HnH will not deflect from the fact that you and your ilk will never ever be taken seriously again by 'genuine' anti facsists. Its over so be man enough and take some nutty advice from Tufty...


----------



## Red Storm (Aug 29, 2012)

Fair big update the the archive this week.

Some interesting bits are: the letters between searchlight and Brighton AFA, Leeds AFA memo on World in Action claims and Birmingham AFA's reasons for resigning from AFA.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Aug 30, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> Fair big update the the archive this week.
> 
> Some interesting bits are: the letters between searchlight and Brighton AFA, Leeds AFA memo on World in Action claims and Birmingham AFA's reasons for resigning from AFA.


 
Though people are probably aware that the WIA 'expose' was set up by Searchlight, Searchlight also warned AFA against having any involvement in the expose!   It is also worth noting that the letter from Leeds AFA attacking the makers and by extension Searchlight is signed by 'Paul'. In the 1997 AFA inquiry into Leeds AFA as whole, 'Paul' admitted to being a Searchlight asset...


----------



## Red Storm (Sep 8, 2012)

An interesting article on the politics and history of Manchester United as been written. Contains some points on AFA.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Sep 9, 2012)

Fc united - Second division pub team - Don't believe the hype.

Love Glazer Hate Fc United.


----------



## Red Storm (Sep 9, 2012)

Frances Lengel said:


> Fc united - Second division pub team - Don't believe the hype.
> 
> Love Glazer Hate Fc United.


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 9, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> An interesting article on the politics and history of Manchester United as been written. Contains some points on AFA.


 
Its an interesting article in that it is incoherent and idealistic


----------



## Joe Reilly (Sep 9, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> Its an interesting article in that it is incoherent and idealistic


 
....incoherent,idealistic and inaccurate...


----------



## Red Storm (Sep 9, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> ....incoherent,idealistic and inaccurate...


 
Which parts are in accurate?


----------



## LLETSA (Sep 9, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> Which parts are in accurate?


 

I didn't get any further than the headline, which says all you need to know. No football club in this country has a political stance. Ever since the dawn of professional football, clubs have been capitalist enterprises, mostly supported, in the big cities and industrial towns, by politically passive Labour voters.


----------



## Delroy Booth (Sep 9, 2012)

LLETSA said:


> I didn't get any further than the headline, which says all you need to know. No football club in this country has a political stance. Ever since the dawn of professional football, clubs have been capitalist enterprises, mostly supported, in the big cities and industrial towns, by politically passive Labour voters.


 
Football as a professional activity is in itself a political stance. Just as Rugby League being a professional, rather than amatuer, sport was a political stance, professional football had a political dimension to it.

And clubs themselves may not have an overt political stance, but that's not the same thing as the fans, is it? Fans have often used a football club as a basis of political activity, be that right-wing or left-wing. Football clubs, like any other capitalist enterprise, don't exist in a political vacuum.


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## LLETSA (Sep 9, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> Football as a professional activity is in itself a political stance. Just as Rugby League being a professional, rather than amatuer, sport was a political stance, professional football had a political dimension to it.
> 
> And clubs themselves may not have an overt political stance, but that's not the same thing as the fans, is it? Fans have often used a football club as a basis of political activity, be that right-wing or left-wing. Football clubs, like any other capitalist enterprise, don't exist in a political vacuum.


 

Football supporters in England simply reflect the society they come from. Most supporters of most clubs have traditionally been working class, and hence socially conservative Labour voters.

If 'football as a professional activity is a political stance,' then it's clearly right of centre, isn't it?


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## butchersapron (Sep 9, 2012)

> Being on the bins as a professional activity is in itself a political stance.


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## Fedayn (Sep 9, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> Football as a professional activity is in itself a political stance. Just as Rugby League being a professional, rather than amatuer, sport was a political stance, professional football had a political dimension to it.
> 
> And clubs themselves may not have an overt political stance, but that's not the same thing as the fans, is it? Fans have often used a football club as a basis of political activity, be that right-wing or left-wing. Football clubs, like any other capitalist enterprise, don't exist in a political vacuum.


 
I think you're conflating clubs with fans. A football club can be notably 'non-political', whilst it's fanbase is overtly political and actively so. The only club I can think of with an overtly political fan base and an officially political club is St Pauli.


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## butchersapron (Sep 9, 2012)

Are RNK Split still a political club?


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## DaveCinzano (Sep 9, 2012)

Aren't you missing an opportunity to plug a certain book about a certain club available from all good bookshops in a certain street in Old Market?


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## butchersapron (Sep 9, 2012)

DaveCinzano said:


> Aren't you missing an opportunity to plug a certain book about a certain club available from all good bookshops in a certain street in Old Market?


Good point!

Easton Cowboys and Cowgirls have just published a book on their history (ignore the banksy stuff) - available direct from Tangent or from Hydra bookshop (site down atm).


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## Delroy Booth (Sep 9, 2012)

LLETSA said:


> Football supporters in England simply reflect the society they come from. Most supporters of most clubs have traditionally been working class, and hence socially conservative Labour voters.
> 
> If 'football as a professional activity is a political stance,' then it's clearly right of centre, isn't it?


 
It's an interesting topic of discussion that. Professional football came into existence as a direct result of the pressure applied by the footballers early trade union bodies, who were fighting for the right for working people to be able to get compensation for playing their sport. Prior to this football was a sport which was set up only to allow gentlemen of independent means to play, people who didn't need to work, so could afford to play and not be paid. In the same way MP's were not paid wages prior to Chartist times, on the implicit assumption that anyone poor enough not to be able to indulge in political life had no right to be in parliament, anyone so poor that they'd need compensating in order to play for their team was similarly excluded. I'd argue that the amatuer football that was a product of the British public school system was more conservative, small c, than the professional leagues, whatever your objections to the professionalisation of the sport on anti-capitalist grounds might be.

Whether it's centre right or not, and whatever your particular take on it is, there's undoubtably a political dimension to professional football that of flies in the face of your previous comments.



Fedayn said:


> I think you're conflating clubs with fans. A football club can be notably 'non-political', whilst it's fanbase is overtly political and actively so. The only club I can think of with an overtly political fan base and an officially political club is St Pauli.


 
I'm not conflating, a club and it's supporters are two seperate things, I'm just pointing out that because a football club is itself apolitical, or at least aspires to be as much as possible, doesn't mean the supporters of that club are too.

Just like how say Brass Bands in coal mining towns were ostensibly apolitical, but also provided a basis for working-class solidarity within civil society, football clubs are capable of the same thing. Same goes for Clarion Clubs, choirs, all sorts of stuff that was ostensibly apolitical but became a de fact base from which to organise politically. See Johnathan Rose's book "The intellectual life of the British working-class" and Paul Salveson's recent "socialism with a nothern accent" if you want to get a better historical understanding of this sort of relationship between culture, sport and politics. My favourite example is the Workers sport federation and the mass trespass of Kinder Scout from 1932 myself.


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## Delroy Booth (Sep 9, 2012)

oops


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## butchersapron (Sep 9, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> Just like how say Brass Bands in coal mining towns were ostensibly apolitical, but also provided a basis for working-class solidarity within civil society, football clubs are capable of the same thing. Same goes for Clarion Clubs, choirs, all sorts of stuff that was ostensibly apolitical but became a de fact base from which to organise politically. See Johnathan Rose's book "The intellectual life of the British working-class" and Paul Salveson's recent "socialism with a nothern accent" if you want to get a better historical understanding of this sort of relationship between culture, sport and politics. My favourite example is the Workers sport federation and the mass trespass of Kinder Scout from 1932 myself.


 
When do the examples examined in the second book end? And are they all linked with formal groups?


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## LLETSA (Sep 9, 2012)

I have hazy memories of talking about this kind of stuff late on Friday night, as it happens, with a (Jewish) Russian friend of Mrs L whose granddad, despite being a career KGB man, followed Spartak and not Dynamo, the KGB-associated club, as does she. I also became aware that the phenomenon of following the bigger clubs despite having no local links to them, wasn't just confined to the capitalist West-they're from Odessa.


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## Delroy Booth (Sep 9, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> When do the examples examined in the second book end? And are they all linked with formal groups?


 
LOL I've not finished reading it yet so I might get back to you on that one. And no not always linked to formal groups, iirc.


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## LLETSA (Sep 9, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> It's an interesting topic of discussion that. Professional football came into existence as a direct result of the pressure applied by the footballers early trade union bodies, who were fighting for the right for working people to be able to get compensation for playing their sport. Prior to this football was a sport which was set up only to allow gentlemen of independent means to play, people who didn't need to work, so could afford to play and not be paid. In the same way MP's were not paid wages prior to Chartist times, on the implicit assumption that anyone poor enough not to be able to indulge in political life had no right to be in parliament, anyone so poor that they'd need compensating in order to play for their team was similarly excluded. I'd argue that the amatuer football that was a product of the British public school system was more conservative, small c, than the professional leagues, whatever your objections to the professionalisation of the sport on anti-capitalist grounds might be.
> 
> Whether it's centre right or not, and whatever your particular take on it is, there's undoubtably a political dimension to professional football that of flies in the face of your previous comments.


 

In what way does anything you're saying here fly in the face of what I said about football clubs being capitalist employers traditionally supported by working class, socially conservative, Labour voters?


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## Delroy Booth (Sep 9, 2012)

LLETSA said:


> In what way does anything you're saying here fly in the face of what I said about football clubs being capitalist employers traditionally supported by working class, socially conservative, Labour voters?


 

I'm gonna cut this off here coz this conversation has got boring tedious semantic quibble with a cynical bitter ex-trot written all over it.


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## LLETSA (Sep 9, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> It's an interesting topic of discussion that. Professional football came into existence as a direct result of the pressure applied by the footballers early trade union bodies, who were fighting for the right for working people to be able to get compensation for playing their sport. Prior to this football was a sport which was set up only to allow gentlemen of independent means to play, people who didn't need to work, so could afford to play and not be paid. In the same way MP's were not paid wages prior to Chartist times, on the implicit assumption that anyone poor enough not to be able to indulge in political life had no right to be in parliament, anyone so poor that they'd need compensating in order to play for their team was similarly excluded. I'd argue that the amatuer football that was a product of the British public school system was more conservative, small c, than the professional leagues, whatever your objections to the professionalisation of the sport on anti-capitalist grounds might be.
> 
> Whether it's centre right or not, and whatever your particular take on it is, there's undoubtably a political dimension to professional football that of flies in the face of your previous comments.
> 
> ...


 


So are there any examples of supporters of professional football clubs taking overt political action en masse? Which club's fans are traditionally left wing or right wing (in a mass sense)?


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## LLETSA (Sep 9, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> I'm gonna cut this off here coz this conversation has got boring tedious semantic quibble with a cynical bitter ex-trot written all over it.


 


That's a good line to use when you realise your argument can't withstand even casual scrutiny.


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## Delroy Booth (Sep 9, 2012)

LLETSA said:


> That's a good line to use when you realise your argument can't withstand even casual scrutiny.


 
Yup, you got me beat again LLETSA. Well played sir!

EDIT: I can't resist



LLETSA said:


> So are there any examples of supporters of professional football clubs taking overt political action en masse? Which club's fans are traditionally left wing or right wing (in a mass sense)?


 
Supporters of football clubs aren't a homogenous group, so political action "en masse" isn't something that crops up very often, but there definitely has been political activity centred around football fans. For example, the way in which Rangers football club has been used a nucleus for recruiting into Loyalist and other right-wing groups over a period of decades, is well documented, such as the recruitment of strike-breakers from the terraces of Ibrox during the general strike of 1926. That's just one example, but if I had the time or effort or if I could be arsed I'd search out some more.

As for the football clubs themselves, what i'm trying to point out is that the decision to become a professional football club and pay their players wages is itself a political decision, one that has to be seen in the context of a wider political working class culture that existed in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. So the idea that professional football clubs are totally apolitical, when they owe their existence to some quite historically specific political tendencies, isn't true. Exactly the same can be said of the split between Rugby League and Rugby Union.

I'm not actually trying to disagree with your statement that football clubs are/were capitalist enterprises supported mainly by Labour voting socially conservative working class people, just trying to point out some of the political background to professional football.

EDIT: Besides which, since when were capitalist institutions, even ones propped up by Labour voters, incapable of a taking a political stance?


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## LLETSA (Sep 9, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> Yup, you got me beat again LLETSA. Well played sir!


 
If you're posting anyway, you might as well answer the above simple questions.


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## LLETSA (Sep 9, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> Yup, you got me beat again LLETSA. Well played sir!
> 
> EDIT: I can't resist
> 
> ...


 


You'll notice that I refer above specifically to clubs in England (apart from the aside about Russia). The Glasgow clubs are absolutely untypical for obvious reasons. But if, as you admit, 'supporters of football clubs aren't an homogenous group,' and attach themselves to capitalist enterprises, then it's clearly nonsense to suggest that a given club has 'a history on the left,' or whatever.


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## butchersapron (Sep 9, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> As for the football clubs themselves, what i'm trying to point out is that the decision to become a professional football club and pay their players wages is itself a political decision, one that has to be seen *in the context of a wider political working class culture that existed in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.* So the idea that professional football clubs are totally apolitical, when they owe their existence to some quite historically specific political tendencies, isn't true. Exactly the same can be said of the split between Rugby League and Rugby Union.


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## Delroy Booth (Sep 9, 2012)

LLETSA said:


> You'll notice that I refer above specifically to clubs in England (apart from the aside about Russia). The Glasgow clubs are absolutely untypical for obvious reasons. But if, as you admit, 'supporters of football clubs aren't an homogenous group,' and attach themselves to capitalist enterprises, then it's clearly nonsense to suggest that a given club has 'a history on the left,' or whatever.


 
Well yeah obviously, the clubs themselves can't really be said to to "have a history on the left" but I haven't been claiming that they have. 

And why exclude glasgow? Is it not part of Britain any more or something? Excluding it just coz it doesn't suit your argument is what it looks like to me. What about Barnsley fans joining in pickets and demo's after matches during the miners strikes of the 70's and 80's, does that count?


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## Delroy Booth (Sep 9, 2012)

I'd really like to get off this merry-go-round, I've got the crown prince of pedantry butchers to one side of me, biding his time, taking aim, and LLETSA being fucking inane dragging the argument out to the other, and boring me to death in the process. 

My ego can't take the thought that I'd lose an argument to any man born out his mothers arse, so if I do fuck off at some point and stop answering the same questions it's because it's a nice day and I don't want to spend it on here all day arguing the toss over this.


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## LLETSA (Sep 9, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> Well yeah obviously, the clubs themselves can't really be said to to "have a history on the left" but I haven't been claiming that they have.
> 
> And why exclude glasgow? Is it not part of Britain any more or something? Excluding it just coz it doesn't suit your argument is what it looks like to me. What about Barnsley fans joining in pickets and demo's after matches during the miners strikes of the 70's and 80's, does that count?


 
I'm not necessarily arguing with much of what you're saying, just the notion that a political identity can be attached to clubs in this country.

Rangers and Celtic are excaptional due to the unique set of social circumstances in Glasgow when they were formed and which were perpetuated down the decades. And like I said, I'm talking about the game in England.


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## LLETSA (Sep 9, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> I'd really like to get off this merry-go-round, I've got the crown prince of pedantry butchers to one side of me, biding his time, taking aim, and LLETSA being fucking inane dragging the argument out to the other, and boring me to death in the process.
> 
> My ego can't take the thought that I'd lose an argument to any man born out his mothers arse, so if I do fuck off at some point and stop answering the same questions it's because it's a nice day and I don't want to spend it on here all day arguing the toss over this.


 


It isn't a nice day anymore-it's just started raining.


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## Delroy Booth (Sep 9, 2012)

LLETSA said:


> I'm not necessarily arguing with much of what you're saying, just the notion that a political identity can be attached to clubs in this country.


 
Oh I agree on that point, you couldn't call Manchester United a left-wing club unless you were deranged, but it's correct to say that the area of Salford/Trafford United drew most of their support from had a longstanding left-wing tradition.



LLETSA said:


> Rangers and Celtic are excaptional due to the unique set of social circumstances in Glasgow when they were formed and which were perpetuated down the decades. And like I said, I'm talking about the game in England.


 
They might be exceptional, but it's no reason to exclude them from the list of possible examples. You asked for an example of a football club which provided the basis in civil society for political actions, well Glasgow rangers being a recruiting ground for scabs in the 1920's fit's that description perfectly. So does the Barnsley fans and the miners strike example. Can we drop this now or do I have to keep finding more examples and jumping through more hoops?



LLETSA said:


> It isn't a nice day anymore-it's just started raining.


 
You bastard, that's your fault.


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## LLETSA (Sep 9, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> Oh I agree on that point, you couldn't call Manchester United a left-wing club unless you were deranged, but it's correct to say that the area of Salford/Trafford United drew most of their support from had a longstanding left-wing tradition.


 
Maybe, although I'd say that it was simply a labour movement, rather than left-wing, tradition-and no more so than the areas where most other big city or industrial town clubs drew their support from.


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## Delroy Booth (Sep 9, 2012)

LLETSA said:


> Maybe, although I'd say that it was simply a labour movement, rather than left-wing, tradition-and no more so than the areas where most other big city or industrial town clubs drew their support from.


 
disagree ever so slightly on that, just coz I've lived in Ordsall and there's very few places I've lived where you're as saturated in working class heritage as round there, I think only a few other major port cities like Newcastle, East end of London, Liverpool and Glasgow really had a political culture like that anywhere in Britain.


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## Riklet (Sep 9, 2012)

LLETSA said:


> It isn't a nice day anymore-it's just started raining.


 
this is you summed up in one post


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## LLETSA (Sep 9, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> disagree ever so slightly on that, just coz I've lived in Ordsall and there's very few places I've lived where you're as saturated in working class heritage as round there, I think only a few other major port cities like Newcastle, East end of London, Liverpool and Glasgow really had a political culture like that anywhere in Britain.


 

How is it any more 'soaked in working class heritage' than any other area where industry-based working class communities existed in the region? And again, this heritage was merely left-of-centre rather than radically left-wing.


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## Delroy Booth (Sep 9, 2012)

LLETSA said:


> How is it any more 'soaked in working class heritage' than any other area where industry-based working class communities existed in the region?


 
see



Delroy Booth said:


> I'm gonna cut this off here coz this conversation has got boring tedious semantic quibble with a cynical bitter ex-trot written all over it.


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## LLETSA (Sep 9, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> see


 
 What? It was a legitimate enough question in light of what you're saying. Anybody who knows Manchester and Salford would recognisthe claim that Ordsall is any more 'soaked in working class heritage' than most other working class neighbourhoods to be ridiculous.


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## Joe Reilly (Sep 9, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> Which parts are in accurate?


 
The reference to club fans identifying with 'No Surrender to the IRA' ditty after the pub bombing in 1974, is wrong on two counts. First off it is overwhelmingly an _Engerlund_ anthem with a provenance from the late '80's at the very best. The quote from Spike (not the author's fault I know) where Hann says that he routinely fought alongside 'loads of football hooligans' is fiction, while the statement that Hann was in the SWP is also untrue.  None of them might undermine the central thesis but at the same time they hardly help either.


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## Delroy Booth (Sep 9, 2012)

LLETSA said:


> What? It was a legitimate enough question in light of what you're saying. Anybody who knows Manchester and Salford would recognisthe claim that Ordsall is any more 'soaked in working class heritage' than most other working class neighbourhoods to be ridiculous.


 
It's a legitimate question sure, but a petty one that I'm not really interested in answering. I'm not trying to put Ordsall on a pedestal, I'm not trying to play lefty top trumps, I'm just pointing out the obvious fact there's a lot of left-wing history in that area, that's all. This is the archetypal working class community at the end of the day, from Engels conditions of the working class in england, to Robert Roberts the classic slum to Walter greenwood's love on the dole, amongst many others, and it is true to say there's not many places in Britain that have a political history like that, probably only other major port cities, like I said.


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## LLETSA (Sep 9, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> It's a legitimate question sure, but a petty one that I'm not really interested in answering. I'm not trying to put Ordsall on a pedestal, I'm not trying to play lefty top trumps, I'm just pointing out the obvious fact there's a lot of left-wing history in that area, that's all. This is the archetypal working class community at the end of the day, from Engels conditions of the working class in england, to Robert Roberts the classic slum to Walter greenwood's love on the dole, amongst many others, and it is true to say there's not many places in Britain that have a political history like that, probably only other major port cities, like I said.


 

You are putting it on a pedestal, though. It's no more steeped in that culture than most other working class communities in the area.


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## Delroy Booth (Sep 9, 2012)

LLETSA said:


> You are putting it on a pedestal, though. It's no more steeped in that culture than most other working class communities in the area.


 
OK fine Ordsall is better than anywhere else in the world, in every concievable aspect.


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## Red Storm (Sep 9, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> The reference to club fans identifying with 'No Surrender to the IRA' ditty after the pub bombing in 1974, is wrong on two counts. First off it is overwhelmingly an _Engerlund_ anthem with a provenance from the late '80's at the very best. The quote from Spike (not the author's fault I know) where Hann says that he routinely fought alongside 'loads of football hooligans' is fiction, while the statement that Hann was in the SWP is also untrue. None of them might undermine the central thesis but at the same time they hardly help either.


 
Are the thoughts on Ken Loach and AFA sound?


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## malatesta32 (Sep 9, 2012)

_Being on the bins as a professional activity is in itself a political stance._

aye, it was for eddie whicker and his 'binmens delights'


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## malatesta32 (Sep 9, 2012)

LLETSA said:


> I have hazy memories of talking about this kind of stuff late on Friday night, as it happens, with a (Jewish) Russian friend of Mrs L whose granddad, despite being a career KGB man, followed Spartak and not Dynamo, the KGB-associated club, as does she. I also became aware that the phenomenon of following the bigger clubs, despite having no local links to them, wasn't just confined to the capitalist West-they're from Odessa.


 

I had an uncle who once played for _*Red Star Belgrade*__*!!!*_


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## malatesta32 (Sep 9, 2012)

anyway forget soccer teams, everyone knows badminton or 'badders' is the only true working class anti-fascist sport! can we get back to fascists now please?


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## butchersapron (Sep 9, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> disagree ever so slightly on that, just coz I've lived in Ordsall and there's very few places I've lived where you're as saturated in working class heritage as round there, I think only a few other major port cities like Newcastle, East end of London, Liverpool and Glasgow really had a political culture like that anywhere in Britain.


Why on earth - after recommending those books -  are you reducing working class culture to political culture?


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## Delroy Booth (Sep 9, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Why on earth - after recommending those books - are you reducing working class culture to political culture?


 
Probably to do with the fact by the time I'd got round to typing that reply I was losing the will to live, I really can't be arsed having a long tedious discussion about the differences between working class culture and specific political culture with LLETSA, infact I'd rather spend the evening drilling holes through my own head. Consider it an oversight, if it was a topic I had any enthusiam for discussing in great detail here I'd have probably made the distinction clearer.

I take your point though.


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## Nice one (Sep 9, 2012)

few well known professional football clubs started by anarchists. All foreign, granted.

*RNK Split, Club Atlético Colegiales*, *Argentinos Juniors*, *Chacarita Juniors*,*Club Atlético Progreso* http://uncomradelybehaviour.wordpress.com/2012/04/30/anarchism-and-football-tackling-from-behind/

Spirit of Shankly dare to put the word socialism on their website header, and they call themselves a union. It's a start.


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## Nigel (Sep 9, 2012)

Don't know if Liverpool FC would come in as having a left wing fan base but their players and elements of their fan base have given support to left wing courses and been hostile towards right wing Media eg The Sun and Murdoch Press.

For instance Robbie Fowler, Stan Collymore et al showing Liverpool Dockers T-Shirt after scoring Goal.
' The Spice Boys was a media term used to describe a group of *Liverpool* F.C. *.....* 
to reveal a mock Calvin Klein T-shirt in support of striking *Liverpool dockers*. *...* 
*Stan Collymore*, notorious for failing to turn up for training, refusing to play for the *...'*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spice_Boys_(footballers)
http://www.bebo.com/c/photos/view?MemberId=505900984&PhotoAlbumId=5297986879#photoId=4401373964
http://www.dkrenton.co.uk/liverpool_fc.html


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## Pickman's model (Sep 9, 2012)

Nigel said:


> Don't know if Liverpool FC would come in as having a left wing fan base but their players and elements of their fan base have given support to left wing courses and been hostile towards right wing Media eg The Sun and Murdoch Press.
> 
> For instance Robbie Fowler, Stan Collymore et al showing Liverpool Dockers T-Shirt after scoring Goal.
> ' The Spice Boys was a media term used to describe a group of *Liverpool* F.C. *.....*
> ...


let's not forget that much of the scousers' hatred for the murdoch press comes from the sun's coverage of hillsborough.


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## LLETSA (Sep 9, 2012)

Nigel said:


> Don't know if Liverpool FC would come in as having a left wing fan base but their players and elements of their fan base have given support to left wing courses and been hostile towards right wing Media eg The Sun and Murdoch Press.
> 
> For instance Robbie Fowler, Stan Collymore et al showing Liverpool Dockers T-Shirt after scoring Goal.
> ' The Spice Boys was a media term used to describe a group of *Liverpool* F.C. *.....*
> ...


 


I think we'd find that elements of most clubs' fanbases have given support to left wing causes at some time or other.


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## butchersapron (Sep 9, 2012)

Robbie - get out of my house -fowler (not to be be confused for the everton version)


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## LLETSA (Sep 9, 2012)

When the article linked to refers to City's roots in the Anglican church, it fails to mention the circumstances surrounding the club's formation in the inner-city Ardwick and West Gorton areas, which were that local clergyman's daughter Anna Connell was alarmed at the utter poverty and degradation she saw around her, and at the fact that the men tended to spend what little spare time they had drinking their wages. Then there was the problem of teenage gang warfare and the 'scuttling' phenomenon. Her response was to canvass the locality with a view to forming a sports club. There is no evidence that this was done on a sectarian basis as the article implies. Catholics in Manchester, as I know myself being from a Catholic background, have chosen City in their tens of thousands over the decades. I would say that a majority have probably favoured United for various reasons, but to nowhere near the extent that the article implies, and to refer to 'loyalist' City is a complete fantasy. Ditto with the claims that united are 'the club for immigrants generally': completely romanticised; successive wave of immigrants have tended to randomly favour one or the other club. Anybody who has known the pubs, schools, working class neighbourhoods and workplaces of Manchester well would acknowledge that attitudes towards the conflict in Ireland were pretty much interchangeable between both sets of fans, and in this respect the same as working class attitudes on the whole. There are no loyalist and republican professional football clubs outside Glasgow. In fact both sets of fans locally are, of course, interchangeable in most aspects.


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## Frances Lengel (Sep 9, 2012)

LLETSA said:


> It isn't a nice day anymore-it's just started raining.


 
Fuckin pissed down didn't it?

And you're right, Ordsall's no more or less steeped in working class tradition than Broughton (Higher or Lower) or, if we're crossing the river, Ancoats or Collyhurst.


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## LLETSA (Sep 10, 2012)

Another bizarre claim in that article is the idea that Yuri Gagarin's visit to Trafford Park (where the workface came from all over Manchester and was as much City as United) provides evidence of 'a link with communism.'


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## Frances Lengel (Sep 10, 2012)

LLETSA said:


> Another bizarre claim in that article is the idea that Yuri Gargarin's visit to Trafford Park (where the workface came from all over Manchester and was as much City as United) provides evidence of 'a link with communism.'


 
Trumpets - I'm not into football, I'm not a red and I'm not a blue, can't see the appeal TBH, all excited over players legs - Not my direction. But yeah, what you're saying is self evidently right (I would've thought). Anyway, you can state your own case better than I can, but I'll tell you what gets _right_ on my nerves - "We're man united and we do what we want" ...Fuck do I hate that chant.


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## Red Storm (Sep 10, 2012)

LLETSA said:


> Another bizarre claim in that article is the idea that Yuri Gargarin's visit to Trafford Park (where the workface came from all over Manchester and was as much City as United) provides evidence of 'a link with communism.'


 
Its not really that bizarre. The phrase 'link with communism' is a little strange, granted. 

But the trip was a trade union organised trip, they specifically went to Trafford Park because of its industry. The Foundry Union made him an honorary member and the Red Flag was flown over Albert Square. 

They specifically chose Manchester and Trafford Park for a reason, that reason was because of the industrial working class nature and the trade union culture of the place.


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## Red Storm (Sep 10, 2012)

Frances Lengel said:


> Trumpets - I'm not into football, I'm not a red and I'm not a blue, can't see the appeal TBH, all excited over players legs - Not my direction. But yeah, what you're saying is self evidently right (I would've thought). Anyway, you can state your own case better than I can, but I'll tell you what gets _right_ on my nerves - "We're man united and we do what we want" ...Fuck do I hate that chant.


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## Frances Lengel (Sep 10, 2012)

Red Storm said:


>


 
Yeah, very elequant (sp) use of words - I sure am stumped.


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## LLETSA (Sep 10, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> Its not really that bizarre. The phrase 'link with communism' is a little strange, granted.
> 
> But the trip was a trade union organised trip, they specifically went to Trafford Park because of its industry. The Foundry Union made him an honorary member and the Red Flag was flown over Albert Square.
> 
> They specifically chose Manchester and Trafford Park for a reason, that reason was because of the industrial working class nature and the trade union culture of the place.


 


An industrial and trade union culture, but not a communist one-that's all I was noting. The red flag being flown over Albert Square would have been the Stars and Stripes if the US had got there first-and they'd have gone to Trafford Park and been feted by the union bureaucrats just the same.

Workers turn out for Gagarin, workers turn out for Kennedy.


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## Red Storm (Sep 10, 2012)

LLETSA said:


> An industrial and trade union culture, but not a communist one-that's all I was noting. The red flag being flown over Albert Square would have been the Stars and Stripes if the US had got there first-and they'd have gone to Trafford Park and been feted by the union bureaucrats just the same.


 
Neil Armstrong was never invited to Trafford Park by the trade unions.

I agree it's not a 'communist link' but I sort of see where he is coming from. I think Engel's and Marx's links to the city would have been worth noting more than Gagarin's in this respect.


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## LLETSA (Sep 10, 2012)

Fair enough-I suppose there was some ideological content. But as far as that article is concerned, it has no bearing on football loyalties in the area where, as I said, the workers came from all over Manchester and beyond and were as likely to support either club over the other.


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## chilango (Sep 10, 2012)

LLETSA said:


> When the article linked to refers to City's roots in the Anglican church, it fails to mention the circumstances surrounding the club's formation in the inner-city Ardwick and West Gorton areas, which were that local clergyman's daughter Anna Connell was alarmed at the utter poverty and degradation she saw around her, and at the fact that the men tended to spend what little spare time they had drinking their wages. Then there was the problem of teenage gang warfare and the 'scuttling' phenomenon. Her response was to canvass the locality with a view to forming a sports club. There is no evidence that this was done on a sectarian basis as the article implies. Catholics in Manchester, as I know myself being from a Catholic background, have chosen City in their tens of thousands over the decades. I would say that a majority have probably favoured United for various reasons, but to nowhere near the extent that the article implies, and to refer to 'loyalist' City is a complete fantasy. Ditto with the claims that united are 'the club for immigrants generally': completely romanticised; successive wave of immigrants have tended to randomly favour one or the other club. Anybody who has known the pubs, schools, working class neighbourhoods and workplaces of Manchester well would acknowledge that attitudes towards the conflict in Ireland were pretty much interchangeable between both sets of fans, and in this respect the same as working class attitudes on the whole. There are no loyalist and republican professional football clubs outside Glasgow. In fact both sets of fans locally are, of course, interchangeable in most aspects.



Coming from several generations of Catholic United fans it was a bit of shock to me when my devout grandmother shortly before she died confessed to having been a closet City fan for years.


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## butchersapron (Sep 10, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> Its not really that bizarre. The phrase 'link with communism' is a little strange, granted.
> 
> But the trip was a trade union organised trip, they specifically went to Trafford Park because of its industry. The Foundry Union made him an honorary member and the Red Flag was flown over Albert Square.
> 
> They specifically chose Manchester and Trafford Park for a reason, that reason was because of the industrial working class nature and the trade union culture of the place.


So, a link between formal bureaucracies.


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## Spanky Longhorn (Sep 10, 2012)

Man U the "formal bureaucracy" club.


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## butchersapron (Sep 10, 2012)

Man U 0 - formal bureaucracy - 1. The workers rejoice - being the lifeblood of the formal bureaucracy.


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## LLETSA (Sep 10, 2012)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> Man U the "formal bureaucracy" club.


 


It isn't really about United as a club, or their fans, but the completely romanticised version of their history the article contains. As a useful contribution to working class football culture, it's akin to that Sean Bean film where he plays a miner, or some such, who gets to play for his local club despite looking about 43 and they appear to mix up several different eras.


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## butchersapron (Sep 10, 2012)

LLETSA said:


> It isn't really about United as a club, or their fans, but the completely romanticised version of their history the article contains. As a useful contribution to working class football culture, it's akin to that Sean Bean film where he plays a miner, or some such, who gets to play for his local club despite looking about 43 and they appear to mix up several different eras.


And sheff utd being a half-decent club. That's what killed it for me.


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## LLETSA (Sep 10, 2012)

'There's trouble at t'pit-we've got to get down there.' 1890s people in 1990s clothing.


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## Red Storm (Sep 10, 2012)

I've noticed the author has written a similar article here.


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## chilango (Sep 10, 2012)

LLETSA said:


> It isn't really about United as a club, or their fans, but the completely romanticised version of their history the article contains. As a useful contribution to working class football culture, it's akin to that Sean Bean film where he plays a miner, or some such, who gets to play for his local club despite looking about 43 and they appear to mix up several different eras.



For being a football fan to work, you have to romanticise - he club, the players, the game itself, your relationship to it and so on ad nauseoum. Football is pretty shit if you strip the romance away and leave the cold hard reality in plain sight.


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## LLETSA (Sep 10, 2012)

chilango said:


> For being a football fan to work, you have to romanticise - he club, the players, the game itself, your relationship to it and so on ad nauseoum. Football is pretty shit if you strip the romance away and leave the cold hard reality in plain sight.


 


Very true, particularly now that we're watching eleven multi-millionaires playing eleven multi-millionaires and paying through the nose for the privilege.


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## malatesta32 (Sep 10, 2012)




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## malatesta32 (Sep 10, 2012)

now thats proper Working Class Sport! Up With Badders! Down With Soccer Teams!


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## TopCat (Sep 10, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> let's not forget that much of the scousers' hatred for the murdoch press comes from the sun's coverage of hillsborough.


The files are due to be published on Wednesday of this week.


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## butchersapron (Sep 10, 2012)

TopCat said:


> The files are due to be published on Wednesday of this week.


The heavily redacted files that have previously been vetted by south yorks and west mids.


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## TopCat (Sep 10, 2012)

Oh not the full monty then...


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## Pickman's model (Sep 10, 2012)

it will be the less exciting partial monty


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## butchersapron (Sep 10, 2012)

TopCat said:


> Oh not the full monty then...


Afraid not.


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## malatesta32 (Sep 10, 2012)

partial monty! excellent!


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## Fedayn (Sep 10, 2012)

chilango said:


> Coming from several generations of Catholic United fans it was a bit of shock to me when my devout grandmother shortly before she died confessed to having been a closet City fan for years.


 
Not a strange one really. Mate of mine is from Mayo, his whole family bar his then non interested mum are United. They moved to Manchester 1970 and lived ojust off Parkfield Street then Horton Road, Lletsa will know just how close to Maine Road they both are. His mum-previously totally uninterested, then decided that City was her great love and she could admit it now that Niall Quinn was a regular at St Edwards RC Social club just like her and her husband....


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## Tommo84 (Sep 10, 2012)

Hi - I wrote the IBWM article on Man Utd and appreciate the comments. My two main sources were the Hann/Tilzey interview with Spike Magazine and the Noonan interview with Red Attitude (both available online, both worth reading). Both talk about the links between City and the NF on the one hand and United and AFA on the other (whilst obviously making clear that it wasn't that simple, etc.). The article looks at possible reasons for this political divide, particularly Utd/AFA (the editors removed the part about City/NF - understandably). One is location (stadium near the docks). The other is a possible immigrant support base, which is more complex (and I can definitely see why people have said it's "romanticised"):

1. City's Anglican roots obviously weren't sectarian as such but as I noted in the article, sectarianism was an issue in Manchester at the time. Would Irish Catholic immigrants have been put off the idea of supporting an Anglican team, especially on with links to the Orange Order (http://www.manchesterorange.co.uk/History/st-marks-church-manchester-city-orange-order) when they could have supported a team with secular roots in the L&YR?

2. In 1902, the club decided the re-name themselves and Utd was chosen narrowly ahead of Celtic. Why was this the case? The man who some credit coming up with the name Utd was Louis Rocca, himself the son of an Italian immigrant family in Ancoats (an Irish/Italian area close to Newton Heath's ground in Clayton). He was the one who recruited fellow Catholic club member Busby as manager in 1945. That Utd were subsequently perceived as the "Catholic club" of Manchester in the 1950s isn't my assertion [Stuart Brennan, M.E.N.]. Similarly the idea of City as "loyalist" is a quote from someone writing in the Guardian.

In the article I note that Moss Side (where City moved in 1923) is an immigrant area. The editors cut out the part where I talked about City's black/mixed race fans confronting their NF base. So clearly City have lots of fans with immigrant backgrounds. But it was Utd who became more associated with militant anti-fascism. Now in the article I've reduced this to Salford docker/Irish immigrant support base which is definitely a "romanticised" version. When asked about it, Tilzey suggests Utd/Catholic vs. City/Protestant as a possible reason for Utd's AFA links. The article develops that idea and uses it as a starting point for exploring some of the history of Manchester in a way that I hope was interesting and accurate.

On a personal note, I went to Catholic schools in Kersal and Prestwich where a huge majority supported Utd. Of the handful of City fans, many were purposefully going against the grain but there did seem to be more City fans over in Blackley/Moston (though still Utd areas I would argue). Now I'm living over in Poland, where my estate is covered in "White Power"/"SS" graffiti and no-one really seems to be that bothered about it. I remember seeing NF graffiti/posters back in M25 but (apparently) it was always being challenged (sometimes violently). Over here, it seems like the far-right link is part of the whole football hooligan identity. I wanted to write about the antifascist left and its links with violence and football fan identity.

Happy to look at any "inaccuracies" in more detail (although most of them I'd dispute).


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## Joe Reilly (Sep 10, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> Are the thoughts on Ken Loach and AFA sound?


 
There was interest expressed, including a sit down meet with 'Donal without a d' prior to the publication of BTF in about 2006 but n o follow up.  Of course after his involvement with the Noonan 'story' and spin off shenanagins it is very unlikely even if he was still keen that it would ever have reciprocated at the other end.
As for the Ken Loach angle, this is very old hat, dusted down periodically by you know who for the usual self-aggrandising coat-trailing reasons for almost a decade.


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## Deareg (Sep 10, 2012)

Frances Lengel said:


> Trumpets - I'm not into football, I'm not a red and I'm not a blue, can't see the appeal TBH, all excited over players legs - Not my direction. But yeah, what you're saying is self evidently right (I would've thought). Anyway, you can state your own case better than I can, but I'll tell you what gets _right_ on my nerves - "We're man united and we do what we want" ...Fuck do I hate that chant.


If you were into football you would understand that the whole idea behind football chants as well as geeing up your own team,is to wind your opponents up, and as chants go, that one works a treat, even annoying non football fans.


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## DaveCinzano (Sep 10, 2012)

Deareg said:


> If you were into football you would understand that the whole idea behind football chants as well as geeing up your own team,is to wind your opponents up


 
But that's just not cricket!


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## Deareg (Sep 10, 2012)

DaveCinzano said:


> But that's just not cricket!


Thank fuck!


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## DaveCinzano (Sep 10, 2012)




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## LLETSA (Sep 10, 2012)

Tommo84 said:


> Hi - I wrote the IBWM article on Man Utd and appreciate the comments. My two main sources were the Hann/Tilzey interview with Spike Magazine and the Noonan interview with Red Attitude (both available online, both worth reading). Both talk about the links between City and the NF on the one hand and United and AFA on the other (whilst obviously making clear that it wasn't that simple, etc.). The article looks at possible reasons for this political divide, particularly Utd/AFA (the editors removed the part about City/NF - understandably). One is location (stadium near the docks). The other is a possible immigrant support base, which is more complex (and I can definitely see why people have said it's "romanticised"):
> 
> 1. City's Anglican roots obviously weren't sectarian as such but as I noted in the article, sectarianism was an issue in Manchester at the time. Would Irish Catholic immigrants have been put off the idea of supporting an Anglican team, especially on with links to the Orange Order (http://www.manchesterorange.co.uk/History/st-marks-church-manchester-city-orange-order) when they could have supported a team with secular roots in the L&YR?
> 
> ...


 

The thing is that these links you speak of are not links between the respective clubs and those organisations, or even between most or many fans and those organisations, but between small sub-groups of fans and those organisations. And the way it's put obscures the obvious fact that many United fans would have sympathised (at a gut level) with the basic aims of the racists and fascists (as would many City fans), and many City fans the aims of their opponents (as would many United fans).

Those Orange Order links you speak of are not with the club as such but with the church that was instrumental in its formation, and the linked article ignores the fact that the Orange Order was a relatively small organisation in Manchester and one that the vast majority of those Anna Connell's meetings to set up the club were aimed at would obviously have had no links to, and nor would the vast majority of those running, playing for and supporting the club in subsequent years. Politically, there was no difference between City and United fans: the working class majority would have been Labour/trade union leaning, and both clubs had middle class fans in the suburbs who would have been Liberals and Tories (as would, no doubt, the businessmen controlling both clubs.) All of this is reflected in the voting patterns of those areas traditionally perceived as being City or United. Also ignored in your article are the aims of those meetings organised by Anna Connell, which, as is well-documented, were loosely progressive, concerned as they were in alleviating the tendency towards wasted lives and combating futile gang warfare between working class youths in deeply impoverished working class areas. Also well-documented is the fact that the aim of putting Manchester in the name of the club when Ardwick FC became MCFC in 1894, at a time when no club carried the name of the city, was to unite all Mancunians regardless of differences. Both clubs co-operated down the years, most famously with United's sharing of Maine Road after WW2, and came together to prevent the growth of the rising Manchester Central FC in the early 1930s-seen at the time as a particular threat to United, who were in a downward spiral and on the verge of bankruptcy. Both sets of fans have never had a problem mixing together at all levels of working and social life, probably much to the chagrin of any tiny minorities who would have preferred that not to be the case. 

I can remember when United were perceived, not totally accurately, as the Catholic club as late as the mid-1970s, but if this was as a result of Busby and club policy at the time, as you imply, it has to be remembered (as you do acknowledge) that Busby was a long-time City player and that Catholics were never excluded or discriminated against at any level of the club (I know you don't directly state that they were but it would be an easy assumption to make from the tone of your article and your above post.) As far as I know, Busby always had a lot of time for his old club. A large minority of Catholics always favoured City (your article does acknowledge that this may certainly have been the case in South Manchester.) Also, Rocca may have been from Ancoats (I'm from neighboring Miles Platting), but many of the Italian immigrants in that area traditionally favoured City. And again, as I say above, the association of United with militant anti-fascism comes down to the football preferences of the activists involved within the city. Anybody growing up in working class Manchester would have to acknowledge that, on the whole, attitudes towards race and immigration were no different among the fans of both clubs. Both fanbases, reflecting working class Manchester itself and surrounding areas, had plenty of racists and some active anti-racists, and the vast majority, like the working class as a whole, had no time for the extremes of right or left. Most City and United fans would have been, as I said in the earlier post, politically passive Labour voters.

To make a more pedantic point, neither Kersal nor Prestwich are actually part of the city of Manchester, as you will know.


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## LLETSA (Sep 10, 2012)

dp


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## Citizen66 (Sep 10, 2012)

Your reply wasn't initially that long. Did you take the iphone to the toilet with you?


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## LLETSA (Sep 10, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> Your reply wasn't initially that long. Did you take the iphone to the toilet with you?


 


No-I was trying to type while eating my tea, somehow hammered the wrong key and ended up posting my first sentence on its own.


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## cesare (Sep 10, 2012)

That was really interesting LLETSA, cheers for expanding on your first para.


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## malatesta32 (Sep 10, 2012)

DaveCinzano said:


> But that's just not cricket!


 
i know, soccer is dull game, cricket is for gents!


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## Frances Lengel (Sep 10, 2012)

Deareg said:


> If you were into football you would understand that the whole idea behind football chants as well as geeing up your own team,is to wind your opponents up, and as chants go, that one works a treat, even annoying non football fans.


 
Yeah but compare "We're man united and we do what we want" with "We're not really here" and there can only be one winner - Revenge of the tashmen right enough.


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## Tommo84 (Sep 11, 2012)

You've said yourself that there was a perception as late as the 1970s that United were a "Catholic" team, i.e. one with a large immigrant support base. We've both identified City as also having a large immigrant support base but unlike United they they attracted this small far right sub-group of fans alongside. Perhaps this was because United were _perceived_ (whether accurately or not) as a Catholic team. The fact that the Manchester branch of the Orange Order talk about City's Anglican roots shows that they see it as part of their narrative in the same way that some antifascists (regardless of levels of involvement) see their Irish Catholic background/Utd support as part of theirs (as you can see in the sources I've used). I suppose if I was writing the article again I would have to try and make this narratives/identity aspect a bit clearer. The word "romanticised" was used to describe the piece and I think that's fair enough. I probably could have been a bit more critically self-aware etc. but then IBWM are probably more interested in the romance rather than the reality. The editors didn't change much from my original submission, but the part they took out did talk about racism at Old Trafford, which you've alluded to (I think mainly because it also referred to the NF subgroup amongst the City fans). Anyway I really enjoyed reading your comments, I think it lends some balance to the article and I definitely take on board the criticism. Off to watch Andy Murray now, a break up in the fifth set. Just out of interest, I've heard people describe Clayton as a "red" area - any truth in this?


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## LLETSA (Sep 11, 2012)

Tommo84 said:


> You've said yourself that there was a perception as late as the 1970s that United were a "Catholic" team, i.e. one with a large immigrant support base. We've both identified City as also having a large immigrant support base but unlike United they they attracted this small far right sub-group of fans alongside. Perhaps this was because United were _perceived_ (whether accurately or not) as a Catholic team. The fact that the Manchester branch of the Orange Order talk about City's Anglican roots shows that they see it as part of their narrative in the same way that some antifascists (regardless of levels of involvement) see their Irish Catholic background/Utd support as part of theirs (as you can see in the sources I've used). I suppose if I was writing the article again I would have to try and make this narratives/identity aspect a bit clearer. The word "romanticised" was used to describe the piece and I think that's fair enough. I probably could have been a bit more critically self-aware etc. but then IBWM are probably more interested in the romance rather than the reality. The editors didn't change much from my original submission, but the part they took out did talk about racism at Old Trafford, which you've alluded to (I think mainly because it also referred to the NF subgroup amongst the City fans). Anyway I really enjoyed reading your comments, I think it lends some balance to the article and I definitely take on board the criticism. Off to watch Andy Murray now, a break up in the fifth set. Just out of interest, I've heard people describe Clayton as a "red" area - any truth in this?


 



Again we have this idea that the club 'attracted' this small far-right sub-group. No, the club did not. A football club has no control over the opinions and actions of its supporters. City as a club did absolutely nothing to attract the, at most, few dozen active racists and fascists around in the late '70s and early 80's, any more than almost any other club who had similar among their fans did, nor any more than MUFC actively solicited for AFA. Manchester is not Glasgow; City are not Rangers and United are not Celtic, no matter how much some tiny minorities among their fans might like them to be. Nor did City do anything, in earlier times, to encourage the Orange Order. What the Orange Order chooses to say on the matter has nothing to do with either the club or the overwhelming majority of its fans. Any organisation with loose Anglican roots could be claimed as part of the Orange narrative in the same way, regardless of the opinions and outlook of most (or even any) of those traditionally associated with it. The most you could say is that because of United's not entirely accurate reputation as 'the Catholic club', the far right targeted City fans for recruitment with an appeal to loyalism (and were, of course, almost entirely unsuccessful, just like they were unsuccessful in most things they attempted.) Of course, you always got handfuls of people who tried to play up to these inaccurate images: United fans who tried to make out that the club itself had Republican connections (and I don't necessarily mean political activists here) and City fans (actually often people who had no solid background as City fans) who tried to be their mirror image-but that's all they were: mere handfuls. By the way, the Manchester Catholics, no matter whether they chose United or City, like Catholics in most English towns and cities, could in no real sense be describe as immigrants for most of the 20th century. They were English, born-and-bred Mancunians, most of them from Irish backgrounds. And as I said, anybody who knows Manchester well would admit that probably a majority of both sets of fans, regardless of background, were moderate Labour voters, as casually racist as most politically passive Labour voters anywhere have been, with no more time for the extremes of either left or right than most people, and conventional views on the war in the north of Ireland. Etc. Both clubs could also count plenty of non-white immigrants and their descendents among their fanbases. All the rest is, as we both seem to agree, almost completely romanticised. In fact, I'd bet that the vast majority of the current fanbases of both clubs would have no idea what we're talking about here. And what's more-they wouldn't want to know.

Clayton; who knows? Changing demographics have a lot to do with football loyalties in any city now, and I left Manchester 12 years ago although I still go back frequently.


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## malatesta32 (Sep 11, 2012)

im sure this is the exception at such an illustrious soccer team as Man U. you dont get that at cricket!


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## malatesta32 (Sep 11, 2012)

double post!


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## butchersapron (Sep 11, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> double post!


Apart from Surrey and the MCC being riddled with Moselyites.


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## Spanky Longhorn (Sep 11, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Apart from Surrey and the MCC being riddled with Moselyites.


 
Suffolk* used to boast a serious upper class nazi following in the sixties and seventies


*don't disapoint me


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## Riklet (Sep 11, 2012)

finally bought the book but ordered it a bit late n had left the UK by the time it arrived.  waiting for me though so should be able to get it posted.

just wondering if there's any plans for an ebook version in the future? been published by Freedom but do they own the possible rights to any electronic version? might be good for those interested in the topic n looking to read the book in forrin' countries..


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## audiotech (Sep 11, 2012)

A small point, but an important one at that. In the late 70's, the NF activists (a right motley crew) at Leeds United's ground, Elland Road, weren't even football fans. They never went to any of the games. Whereas, the anti-fascists who opposed them did have Leeds supporters in their ranks and who did go to Leeds matches.


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## love detective (Sep 11, 2012)

Riklet said:


> finally bought the book but ordered it a bit late n had left the UK by the time it arrived. waiting for me though so should be able to get it posted.
> 
> just wondering if there's any plans for an ebook version in the future? been published by Freedom but do they own the possible rights to any electronic version? might be good for those interested in the topic n looking to read the book in forrin' countries..


ebook version is being looked into as a self publishing thing, not through Freedom though (this was looked at at the outset but for various reasons didn't get progressed)

we (IWCA) get a fair lot of foreign purchases of the book as it is, although the postage costs of it given the weight of the thing makes it fairly expensive, so the ebook route would open up more possibilities for foreign distribution


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## Frances Lengel (Sep 11, 2012)

Tommo84 said:


> You've said yourself that there was a perception as late as the 1970s that United were a "Catholic" team, i.e. one with a large immigrant support base. We've both identified City as also having a large immigrant support base but unlike United they they attracted this small far right sub-group of fans alongside. Perhaps this was because United were _perceived_ (whether accurately or not) as a Catholic team. The fact that the Manchester branch of the Orange Order talk about City's Anglican roots shows that they see it as part of their narrative in the same way that some antifascists (regardless of levels of involvement) see their Irish Catholic background/Utd support as part of theirs (as you can see in the sources I've used). I suppose if I was writing the article again I would have to try and make this narratives/identity aspect a bit clearer. The word "romanticised" was used to describe the piece and I think that's fair enough. I probably could have been a bit more critically self-aware etc. but then IBWM are probably more interested in the romance rather than the reality. The editors didn't change much from my original submission, but the part they took out did talk about racism at Old Trafford, which you've alluded to (I think mainly because it also referred to the NF subgroup amongst the City fans). Anyway I really enjoyed reading your comments, I think it lends some balance to the article and I definitely take on board the criticism. Off to watch Andy Murray now, a break up in the fifth set. Just out of interest, I've heard people describe Clayton as a "red" area - any truth in this?


 
I'm not sure if Clayton's a red area in the manner of somewhere like Collyhurst. I'd say there's a lot of blues in East Manchester. Best bit of graffiti ever was on a gable end in Clayton though, in big white paint just said GOD is from Clayton.


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## Tommo84 (Sep 11, 2012)

No-one's saying that either the clubs or a majority or even a big minority of supporters had ties with groups either sides of the political divide. Small minority as it is/was (however small), United had an anti-fascist fanzine and a book was written by/about antifascists, both of which claimed this political divide as part of their narrative to whatever extent and with whatever caveats were involved. That's what the article was about. I was looking for possible reasons why this might be the case.

Of course neither club consciously tried to 'attract' anyone from any political background. But to say that people might have been attracted to either side for whatever reason isn't the same thing. Agree with most of your other points, passive Labour voters etc. but you seem to be saying that United's well-organised antifascist support base (however big/small) just came about by itself in a completely random way. All I'm saying is that it might be historically rooted, on however big or small a scale.

Manchester Irish weren't all immigrants as such but they came from immigrant backgrounds and may have been more amenable to the message of antifascism. Obviously each individual case is different and you can't make sweeping generalisations but this is what's implied in my two main sources (the Spike interview and the issue of Red Attitude). The easiest answer to the question is that there are no easy answers.



> *One thing that comes over very strong in the book is that you're Reds in both senses*
> *of the word. By your account Manchester United was always heavily anti-fascist in*
> *character, yet Manchester City was far more of a hotbed of NF support. Why is that?*
> *ST: *There really is no clear answer to that. Historically there was the old United-Catholic
> ...


 
(http://www.spikemagazine.com/pdfdocuments/spikemagazinecom_noretreatinterview.pdf)


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## malatesta32 (Sep 11, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Apart from Surrey and the MCC being riddled with Moselyites.


bollocks, do these look like fascists?


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## audiotech (Sep 11, 2012)

Anyone for tennis?



> One man who had no trouble getting in, however, was BNP leader Nick Griffin, who was shown around the grounds by ex-player - and one-time National Front poster boy - Buster Mottram.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1194042/Loin-King-Rice-new-love.html


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## DaveCinzano (Sep 11, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> bollocks, do these look like fascists?


 
"How tall would you say Don Bradman was?"


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## LLETSA (Sep 11, 2012)

Tommo84 said:


> No-one's saying that either the clubs or a majority or even a big minority of supporters had ties with groups either sides of the political divide. Small minority as it is/was (however small), United had an anti-fascist fanzine and a book was written by/about antifascists, both of which claimed this political divide as part of their narrative to whatever extent and with whatever caveats were involved. That's what the article was about. I was looking for possible reasons why this might be the case.
> 
> Of course neither club consciously tried to 'attract' anyone from any political background. But to say that people might have been attracted to either side for whatever reason isn't the same thing. Agree with most of your other points, passive Labour voters etc. but you seem to be saying that United's well-organised antifascist support base (however big/small) just came about by itself in a completely random way. All I'm saying is that it might be historically rooted, on however big or small a scale.
> 
> ...


 

Historically rooted how? Manchester's Catholics were/are not generally anti-fascist or anti-racist regardless of which club they favoured (as with anybody else, the picture is mixed), and whatever 'well-organised anti-fascist support base' that did exist at United came about, as far as I can see, because the small, politically conscious group that was behind it happened to be United fans. One of the authors of the book to which you refer did not come from Manchester. Was he of Irish extraction? I don't know.

Manchester's Catholics may come from immigrant backgrounds but are, in the main, not actually immigrants and haven't been for some time-their experience is the same as that of other long-settled white Mancunians, and being from that background myself, I've never noticed that they are any more 'amenable' to 'the message of anti-fascism' than anybody else. Some of the worse racists I've met are from Irish backgrounds. The BNP seems to have no shortage of them.


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## butchersapron (Sep 11, 2012)

Sussex still have a stand named after their fascist captain. (actually, seems it was knocked down a couple of years back).


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## JimW (Sep 11, 2012)

DaveCinzano said:


> "How tall would you say Don Bradman was?"


They've just all gone up to appeal at the same time.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Sep 11, 2012)

Proletarian Democracy needs a football team.

P.S. Cricket is the shittest sport in the world.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 11, 2012)

No, PD needs to...
​*RECLAIM*​*THE ETON*​*WALL GAME*​


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## malatesta32 (Sep 11, 2012)




----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 11, 2012)

Working class jetpacks for all


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## Red Storm (Sep 11, 2012)




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## 123bpm (Sep 12, 2012)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> it will be the less exciting partial monty



I very much doubt whether Phil Scraton would have ever agreed to sit on a Panel scrutinising a partial set of redacted documents. Today is very much likely to be the real deal.

123


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## malatesta32 (Sep 12, 2012)

hey trotskyites! anyone tell me which is his best essay on workers defence squads?


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## dennisr (Sep 12, 2012)

Fascism: What It Is and How To Fight It
http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/works/1944/1944-fas.htm

Jump to:
http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/works/1944/1944-fas.htm#p9


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## malatesta32 (Sep 12, 2012)

ah thanks dennis! just getting onto the thorny issue of 'squaddism'!


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## malatesta32 (Sep 12, 2012)

also this from HnH. not sure abaht this! 
On a more organised level we are beginning to see a re-emergence of smaller, more aggressive fascist groups, such as the Racial Volunteer Force and some other old Combat 18-type networks


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## Red Storm (Sep 12, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> also this from HnH. not sure abaht this!
> On a more organised level we are beginning to see a re-emergence of smaller, more aggressive fascist groups, such as the Racial Volunteer Force and some other old Combat 18-type networks


 
Is the EDL that boring now that they're having to dredge up the RVF and C18...


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## dennisr (Sep 12, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> ah thanks dennis! just getting onto the thorny issue of 'squaddism'!


Trotters own writings were about a very different time and place though so i'm not sure how helpful it would be - at least it should show how folk like him posed such questions - ie the context they are being made


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## malatesta32 (Sep 12, 2012)

yeah i just wanted to clarify what he was saying. obviously the 20s/30s in Germany were infinitely more violent and high in fatalities than london in the 70s!!! unbelievably so reading through it all recently. and trotters! good one!


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## Red Storm (Sep 12, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> yeah i just wanted to clarify what he was saying. obviously the 20s/30s in Germany were infinitely more violent and high in fatalities than london in the 70s!!! unbelievably so reading through it all recently. and trotters! good one!


 
The responses were more violent though. 

I think his writings are still useful. I think proportionality and pragmatism are important. It was proportional to shot a Nazi dead in the 30s and it could be argued pragmatic too. 

I don't think that can be said so much following the second world war.


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## malatesta32 (Sep 12, 2012)

well from what i've been reading there was a lot of shooting going on which, if both sides are armed, ups the ante considerably! i shall be reading 'trotters' the now after downloading loads of other stuff.


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## manny-p (Sep 12, 2012)

Anyone got much info on the racial volunteer force? are they even still around?


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## malatesta32 (Sep 12, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> The responses were more violent though.
> 
> I think his writings are still useful. I think proportionality and pragmatism are important. It was proportional to shot a Nazi dead in the 30s and it could be argued pragmatic too.
> 
> I don't think that can be said so much following the second world war.


speaking of which!
http://afaarchive.files.wordpress.c...ss-anti_fascist-and-the-swp-by-red-action.pdf


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## malatesta32 (Sep 12, 2012)

manny-p said:


> Anyone got much info on the racial volunteer force? are they even still around?


 
RVF are mainly a website and a handful of secret gigs but are still managing to maintain a bitter feud with B&H over the few remaining ageing skinheads' money for shit CDs. RVF are also calling for 'unity' and are hoping to appeal to the 'good apples' of BH. fat chance.


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## manny-p (Sep 12, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> RVF are mainly a website and a handful of secret gigs but are still managing to maintain a bitter feud with B&H over the few remaining ageing skinheads' money for shit CDs. RVF are also calling for 'unity' and are hoping to appeal to the 'good apples' of BH. fat chance.


Interesting about their beef with B&H. I remember seeing them have a video threatening the EDL and also trying to cause problems/get political capital- out of the racist Kriss Donald killing with a memorial video at the place the poor boy lost his life.


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## Joe Reilly (Sep 12, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> The responses were more violent though.
> 
> I think his writings are still useful. I think proportionality and pragmatism are important. It was proportional to shot a Nazi dead in the 30s and it could be argued pragmatic too.
> 
> I don't think that can be said so much following the second world war.


 
'To maim not to kill' was the 43 Group edict, post war. Which seems about right. Assuming of course that it is you that is setting the agenda at the time.


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## malatesta32 (Sep 12, 2012)

manny-p said:


> Interesting about their beef with B&H. I remember seeing them have a video threatening the EDL and also trying to cause problems/get political capital- out of the racist Kriss Donald killing with a memorial video at the place the poor boy lost his life.


 
crivvens, it all goes back to C18 and the split between the sergent majors and the gravy brownings fighting over B&H, then the splits from that and then the splits ... its a headache following it all but it all reflects the lack of unity amongst them - mainly cos of ego, money, drunkenness and stupidity. to us, theyre all the same!


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## malatesta32 (Sep 12, 2012)

i think proportionality is the right word ere! sledgehammer nut metaphor.


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## Joe Reilly (Sep 12, 2012)

Tommo84 said:


> The fact that the Manchester branch of the Orange Order talk about City's Anglican roots shows that they see it as part of their narrative in the same way that some antifascists (regardless of levels of involvement) see their Irish Catholic background/Utd support as part of theirs (as you can see in the sources I've used).


 
Interestingly one of the incidents that first drew the attention of the national AFA leadership to Dave Hann, was when after a nationally supported AFA mobilisation around the Bloody Sunday March in Manchester in Jan 1995, he as editor of Red Attitude at the time, sought to appropriate the considerable successes of anti-fascists/republicans on the day versus fascists/loyalists and bend into an entirely different narrative.

But instead of casting it in terms of Protestant/loylaist v Catholic/anti-fascist, as the Spike interview might suggest he would, he used a photo of a battered right-winger, (which would later be referenced in a News of the World article) to re-cast the clashes on the day in apolitical 'Utd v City' terms, which was regarded with astonishment at the time, though his rationale would become clearer later on.

For what it's worth Hann was not a) Irish, Catholic, or indeed a Utd fan, and the 'batterers' for want of a better term were AFA-Villa(who ran their own fanzine incidentally) fans from Brum.


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## miktheword (Sep 12, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> speaking of which!
> http://afaarchive.files.wordpress.c...ss-anti_fascist-and-the-swp-by-red-action.pdf


 


(from the above article)

The proponent of mass defence against the incursions of the fascists then maintain that physical force by what Trotsky termed ‘combat detachments’ (and what the SWP terms ‘squaddism’) is harmful because it divides the detachments from the masses. He answers;
_'But why then are there independent attachments among the fascists who are not cut off from the reactionary masses but who arouse the courage and embolden those masses by their well organised attacks?’_


with regard to the above point by Trotsky AGAINST 'Trotskyists' such as the SWP, the latter would sometimes feel a need to write an article in SW, particularly after their membership were increasingly getting turned over by the BNP early 90s. They would state something along the lines of..
* 'some groups argue that anti fascism is the sole preserve of self selected elites and that only they are equipped to deal with fascism - thus excluding the rest of the class from the anti fascist struggle...*

before that, they would sometimes refer to the argument against 'Individual Terrorism' 
_(reference to bombings carried about against some aristocrats in early 20th century Russia (?..a guess here..memory ain't all that!) _

There was a time when the membership (SWP) getting turned over were increasingly questioning their leadership..who responded in print by denying that such attacks had taken place. I bumped into Pat Stack and asked him about such attacks and denials; he replied, 'if they continue, then something will have to be done.'


many of the arguments in the above RA pamphlet about squaddism and the SWP are contained in a fuller article in a Red Action paper which dismantles many of the 'Trotskyist' pillars of the SWP by using Trotsky's own writings against them.


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## malatesta32 (Sep 12, 2012)

thanks loads for that mr theword! i shall have to digest this at leisure as i am just about digest a roast chicken for us tea!


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## malatesta32 (Sep 13, 2012)

crivvens! charlie Sargent is out and with a new identity! 
http://www.thisisgloucestershire.co...stic-success/story-16738683-detail/story.html


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## bignose1 (Sep 13, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> Interestingly one of the incidents that first drew the attention of the national AFA leadership to Dave Hann, was when after a nationally supported AFA mobilisation around the Bloody Sunday March in Manchester in Jan 1995, he as editor of Red Attitude at the time, sought to appropriate the considerable successes of anti-fascists/republicans on the day versus fascists/loyalists and bend into an entirely different narrative.
> 
> But instead of casting it in terms of Protestant/loylaist v Catholic/anti-fascist, as the Spike interview might suggest he would, he used a photo of a battered right-winger, (which would later be referenced in a News of the World article) to re-cast the clashes on the day in apolitical 'Utd v City' terms, which was regarded with astonishment at the time, though his rationale would become clearer later on.
> 
> For what it's worth Hann was not a) Irish, Catholic, or indeed a Utd fan, and the 'batterers' for want of a better term were AFA-Villa(who ran their own fanzine incidentally) fans from Brum.


Every fight you had was totally spot on??.....You never had a beef with him not having any of the said attributes when he was 'in favour' you sick fuck. Yeah and how many cunts in Rangers shirts got twatted along the way you clown. I know for a fact you dished out many an uneccessary slap in your day... the way you twist shit to your own ends is truly astonishing.....


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## manny-p (Sep 13, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> crivvens! charlie Sargent is out and with a new identity!
> http://www.thisisgloucestershire.co...stic-success/story-16738683-detail/story.html


fuck sake I took that seriously for a minute you sick cunt.


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## JimW (Sep 13, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> crivvens! charlie Sargent is out and with a new identity!
> http://www.thisisgloucestershire.co...stic-success/story-16738683-detail/story.html


We used to go down to Saul to buy rough cider off these three mad old bachelor brothers, one blind and one had a massive goitre. West Country Deliverance. Top cider for 50p a litre.


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## Red About Town (Sep 13, 2012)

Review of BTF in AFA Ireland's magazine, No Quarter Issue 6.


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## Joe Reilly (Sep 13, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Every fight you had was totally spot on??.....You never had a beef with him not having any of the said attributes when he was 'in favour' you sick fuck. Yeah and how many cunts in Rangers shirts got twatted along the way you clown. I know for a fact you dished out many an uneccessary slap in your day... the way you twist shit to your own ends is truly astonishing.....


 
As per usual your 'reply' has zero relation to my previous post, but as your here so to speak, perhaps you'd like to explain why AFA was written out of an AFA story in what afterall was an AFA publication - what was the the thinking behind it and why, as you were involved with the fanzine at the time (1995) were you happy to go along with the instant revisionism?


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## malatesta32 (Sep 15, 2012)

JimW said:


> We used to go down to Saul to buy rough cider off these three mad old bachelor brothers, one blind and one had a massive goitre. West Country Deliverance. Top cider for 50p a litre.


 
that's not exactly good PR for your product is it, being blind!


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## malatesta32 (Sep 15, 2012)

awesome idea!


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## bignose1 (Sep 17, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Every fight you had was totally spot on??.....You never had a beef with him not having any of the said attributes when he was 'in favour' you sick fuck. Yeah and how many cunts in Rangers shirts got twatted along the way you clown. I know for a fact you dished out many an uneccessary slap in your day... the way you twist shit to your own ends is truly astonishing.....


When you employed threats from gangsters to remove Dave and myself from Red Attitude you imported a bunch of numpties to sell it...even fucking City fans...ffs. And John Heddon who was he supporting at the time???? I think he's followed more teams than he's been in political organisations. Chelsea, Rangers, Leeds, Stockport Co, City. I really think your clutching at straws again in your sick pursuit of Dave.


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## Joe Reilly (Sep 17, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> When you employed threats from gangsters to remove Dave and myself from Red Attitude you imported a bunch of numpties to sell it...even fucking City fans...ffs. And John Heddon who was he supporting at the time???? I think he's followed more teams than he's been in political organisations. Chelsea, Rangers, Leeds, Stockport Co, City. I really think your clutching at straws again in your sick pursuit of Dave.


 
In addittion to issuing replies that bare no resemblance to the message initially posted, you again entirely ignore the questions posed directly to you (no 3181) in favour of posting a 'reply' to your own post! As you well know it was AFA that removed Red Attitude _from_ Hann.

And why In God's name would anyone have to employ gangsters to remove you from anything?

Manchester Martyrs told you and Searchlight 'your safety couldn't be guaranteed' if you continued to interfere in their affairs.

No gangster involvement required.

Hann himself was forced to sack you in the early 90's after you the Rochdale debacle. No gangster involvement required.

You were again turfed out following the Nolan fiasco. Again no gangster involvement required.

But probably Because Hann was already compromised by then, you were able to ease your way back into Red Attitude circles, under the guise of being 'a genuine Utd fan' (who would later decamp to FC United before again 'returning to the fold') and pose as Hann's close personal buddy: the same 'close personal buddy' who nonetheless failed to turn up to support him when he was on robbery charges at Liverpool Crown Court?


But that aside, there is another striking contrast between word and deed.

Although you keep making disparaging comments about gangsters at every opportunity (and on almost every thread you visit) you not only made time to be at Dessie's funeral, (who might on occasion have been so described by the uncharitable) but it was also evident from your curious behaviour on the day, you were not only determined to be there, you also wanted, along with standout oddball SPoooooo00000ky, to _be_ _seen to be_ there.

You do know what I'm referring to here, right?

Now the last time we got this far, if I remember correctly, another thread was taken down under threats of legal action, so I'll say no more.

But if you want to expand further on the 'gangster connected' theme, I am perfectly happy to present you with the opportunity.

Fire away.


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## Riklet (Sep 18, 2012)

It will be really sad if this thread gets deleted or affected by this sad bickering, whatever the rights and wrongs of things behind it.

it just goes way too far beyond any idea of constructive criticism and analysis, it's an SMS-war...


----------



## bignose1 (Sep 18, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> In addittion to issuing replies that bare no resemblance to the message initially posted, you again entirely ignore the questions posed directly to you (no 3181) in favour of posting a 'reply' to your own post! As you well know it was AFA that removed Red Attitude _from_ Hann.
> 
> And why In God's name would anyone have to employ gangsters to remove you from anything?
> 
> ...


Once again you lie your way through history. And your tough talk' why would gangsters have to turf you out of anything' here we go again with that fucking shite....and you of all people should keep quiet about the 'past'. You and your cronies hid behind gangsters and used them when you didnt have the guts yourself. Manchester Martyrs had an issue with me re a personal level but I turned up and was fine you dont scare me pal with your tough talk never have never will...and it was you lot who ended up gettingt the boot when you spat your dummy out and attacked a key Martyrs organiser. Fact. The Rochdale debacle was a debacle in your imagination. Again you made false allegations abpout the day and for which you have produced no evidence. Same for Nolan which has been done to death.You also listen far too much to Denis's tittle tattle. I handed my season ticket back when the Glazers took over...didnt want to fund his debt..went to 12 or so 'Man U' away games that first season and still do but followed FC a fair bit too for a couple of seasons and still go to a few games, no probs mate.. FC should be where you lot should be...with your so called community stuff...check their website. I never went 'away' another pathetic lie, from United...Ive been a MUST committee member for 3 years and your attempt at ridicule is as cunty as ever.

I never eased my way in to Red attitude and if I did then why did your lot not have a say..its becuse your all bluff and bluster and people began to tell you to stop being so fucking ridiculous. As far as Dave at Liverpool....I had no knowledge about what was going on to any extent and because Turner was involved I especially felt no compulsion to be any where near the cunt. My behaviour on the day again is part of your fictional obsession with me. I had known Dessie in the early years and was especially close to him following personal tragedies. I went to his funeral in respect for those days not that I have to explain to you.....who fucking growled and scowled with your sidekick all day. Fuck me theres looking hard and trying to look hard...even one of DC's old mates commented on the swagger. And dont forget this old mate was one of the early lads who Ive kept in touch with and weve discussed the whole shebang. Re the Spook thing..try gain mate and you'll make a twat of yourself again and the mods might have to pull it once more. The hypocrisy is you wallow in the gangs/crew/handy lads/ hard cunts shite and that you that you used them when needed but your IWCA line isnt it against all these anti social behaviour types. Your a complete fraud O'Shea who really needs to take a closer look at what youve actually contributed in the last 2 decades...fuck all in my eyes. In fact all you do is besmirch others in the hope it makes you look better. Oh and ManU...thats unforgiveable.


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## Joe Reilly (Sep 18, 2012)

Riklet said:


> It will be really sad if this thread gets deleted or affected by this sad bickering, whatever the rights and wrongs of things behind it.
> 
> it just goes way too far beyond any idea of constructive criticism and analysis, it's an SMS-war...


 
Big Nose has a ten-year personal investment in parading a false account of history. It began on the RA discussion site in 2002, continued with the publication of No Retreat, (In which the BNP emerged victorious in the battle for the streets if you haven't read it) re-ignited with the announcement that BTF was to be published.

He, along with others was behind the campaign to try and intimidate the publishers into abandoning the project, in which incidentally he very nearly succeeded. He was also party to a threatened law-suit against the authors, in which he helpfully supplied names of those he felt ought to be made liable in court, individuals note, who unlike him, shunned any publicity.   And so on.

This thread is called 'Beating the Fascists'. Which is the name of the book about the campaign by AFA against the NF,BNP, B&H C18 and so forth. The sole purpose of the book was to set the record stratight and point to the lessons that can be learned from it.

But how can anyone learn anything if they don't know who or what to believe? 

Which is the singular purpose of Big Nose's involvement on here:  to smear the lens; to muddy the waters. A score draw is the best he can hope for. 'Constructive criticism and analysis' is not his forte.


So when he say he makes an allegation that AFA used gangsters to drive him out of politics - you have nothing to say. But it is only when the accusation is rebutted you feel obliged to describe it as 'bickering'. 

Presumably,  _all_ of his many assertions can stand unchallenged as far as your concerned?

And when he states that it was AFA and not the BNP that threw in the towel, that too should left lie - 'whatever the rights or wrongs behind it?'

You may think the past is history. But, as your own little contribution illustrates, the past isn't even passed.


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## bignose1 (Sep 18, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> Big Nose has a ten-year personal investment in parading a false account of history. It began on the RA discussion site in 2002, continued with the publication of No Retreat, (In which the BNP emerged victorious in the battle for the streets if you haven't read it) re-ignited with the announcement that BTF was to be published.
> 
> He, along with others was behind the campaign to try and intimidate the publishers into abandoning the project, in which incidentally he very nearly succeeded. He was also party to a threatened law-suit against the authors, in which he helpfully supplied names of those he felt ought to be made liable in court, individuals note, who unlike him, shunned any publicity. And so on.
> 
> ...


 RA discussion site my arse. 7 year personal attack site. Me along with others...you mean Daves missus ffs. I supplied names to her lawyers...really..you mean the lawyers who were helping her in trying to protect her children who were still mourning from the disgusting lies and smears about there father. Fuck you. Sick fucker.


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## bignose1 (Sep 18, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> As per usual your 'reply' has zero relation to my previous post, but as your here so to speak, perhaps you'd like to explain why AFA was written out of an AFA story in what afterall was an AFA publication - what was the the thinking behind it and why, as you were involved with the fanzine at the time (1995) were you happy to go along with the instant revisionism?


Historically no matter what I say makes no difference to you..but if I said I disagreed with its inclusion would that be enough???


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## love detective (Sep 18, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> RA discussion site my arse. 7 year personal attack site. Me along with others...you mean Daves missus ffs. I supplied names to her lawyers...really..you mean the lawyers who were helping her in trying to protect her children who were still mourning from the disgusting lies and smears about there father. Fuck you. Sick fucker.


regardless of what the reasons were and regardless of what you think of those people personally, do you think that supplying the names of anti-fascists to law firms (connecting them to documented anti-fascist activity) is something that can be justified in any circumstances?


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## bignose1 (Sep 18, 2012)

love detective said:


> regardless of what the reasons were and regardless of what you think of those people personally, do you think that supplying the names of anti-fascists to law firms (connecting them to documented anti-fascist activity) is something that can be justified in any circumstances?


NO I think of them in mainly political terms. AND if I have given names to a law firm then only the law firm would be in a position to divulge that information (under client confidentiality). Will OShea therefore show me any documenation/evidence to that effect. And dont start taking the moral high ground on this stuff either l.d as you should refer back to the RA website circa 2003 where they revealed reams of sensitive and personal stuff about me which gave the authorities and the fash plenty of wanking material. Shameful behaviour and you need to address that mate before having a poke at me.
Supplying names my arse. Wasnt it the same lawyers they used to relieve a local Labour party of 20k. Did they name names ?? I believe though if you write a book then fucking do it without using a hooky name. Even the football hooligan bods do. When I wrote NR I left loads out as it would finger either myself for stuff I was doing mainly with others and bigger stuff that may have been risky or helpful to the enemies. You should have put your names to it and be the big men you claim to be.


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## malatesta32 (Sep 18, 2012)

meanwhile, what is wrong with this picture?


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## chilango (Sep 18, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> meanwhile, what is wrong with this picture?



It's badly composed - the strip of lights on the far left should be parallel to the edge of the picture for example, and the ceding tile should be likewise with the top of the picture. To be honest it should have been shot portrait rather than landscape though.


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## bignose1 (Sep 18, 2012)

chilango said:


> It's badly composed - the strip of lights on the far left should be parallel to the edge of the picture for example, and the ceding tile should be likewise with the top of the picture. To be honest it should have been shot portrait rather than landscape though.


 Uze he ???


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## JimW (Sep 18, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> meanwhile, what is wrong with this picture?


Metaphor of hiding your fascism under the Union flag's too obvious, no-one will buy it's real.


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## malatesta32 (Sep 18, 2012)

i think jim wins this 1! brilliant! this guy is also BNP and CxF.


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## bignose1 (Sep 18, 2012)

chilango said:


> It's badly composed - the strip of lights on the far left should be parallel to the edge of the picture for example, and the ceding tile should be likewise with the top of the picture. To be honest it should have been shot portrait rather than landscape though.


Put it in Red Storms anti fascist arcade


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## love detective (Sep 18, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> NO I think of them in mainly political terms. AND if I have given names to a law firm then only the law firm would be in a position to divulge that information (under client confidentiality). Will OShea therefore show me any documenation/evidence to that effect.


 
I saw all the letters from Carter Ruck at the time where they made various demands about the book - they specifically refer to you as their source of the primary authors names


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## bignose1 (Sep 18, 2012)

love detective said:


> I saw all the letters from Carter Ruck at the time where they made various demands about the book - they specifically refer to you as their source of the primary authors names


I will take it up with them tomorrow. I had one short telephone conversation with them...no letters...no emails...I think youll find they did some basic detective work. Not even tricky fuckers mate.... basic ..even you should know that. I did not name any potential authors. No such restraint when putting out your shite on me and others...dont come the victim bollox. When people have asked me who is the BTF Sean fellah I tell them who  I thinks behind it...so better get me on that too. Stop being wingeing shithouses


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## cesare (Sep 18, 2012)

Is all this argument in the book? I bought it at the Bookfair but haven't read it yet.


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## Red Storm (Sep 18, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Put it in Red Storms anti fascist arcade



What's that supposed to mean?


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## bignose1 (Sep 18, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> What's that supposed to mean?


DO I really have to explain my shit joke play on words.....


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## bignose1 (Sep 18, 2012)

love detective said:


> I saw all the letters from Carter Ruck at the time where they made various demands about the book - they specifically refer to you as their source of the primary authors names


Is that the same as divulging ( along with Louise )who had been responsible for the 15 year smear campaign against Dave which Ive been happy to do elsewhere no problems or are we playing semantics. Like anyone else it aint rocket science to work out within a couple of names...but it would have been a guess all the same...no real proof but did know who was behind the hate smears and threats you hypocrtical twats (..was I right Mr Love Detective when you saw the 'so called documentation') No youre a liar true to form. But even so hiding behind pseudonyms goes against the honorable tradition of recording our anti fascist and working class history...no balls whatsover...you had no reason to be dishonest with the authorship...so eager to dish it but squirm and squeal and cry foul ..when its served back


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## Pickman's model (Sep 18, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> But even so hiding behind pseudonyms goes against the tradition of recording history


i think you'll find it doesn't. for instance, no one's ever complained about rupert allason using the name nigel west for his work on mi5. there's also no end of anonymous historians and chroniclers, eg the author of the armenian rhyming chronicle. there's no rules of history which say 'thou shalt give thy real name'. as for people being eager to dish it out, procopius famously kept a 'secret history' which would have led to a sudden truncation of his life if justinian and theodora had happened upon it.


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## bignose1 (Sep 18, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> i think you'll find it doesn't. for instance, no one's ever complained about rupert allason using the name nigel west for his work on mi5. there's also no end of anonymous historians and chroniclers, eg the author of the armenian rhyming chronicle. there's no rules of history which say 'thou shalt give thy real name'. as for people being eager to dish it out, procopius famously kept a 'secret history' which would have led to a sudden truncation of his life if justinian and theodora had happened upon it.


Do me a favour


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## Pickman's model (Sep 18, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Do me a favour


if only i could. but you seem so insistent on not doing yourself any.


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## Joe Reilly (Sep 19, 2012)

cesare said:


> Is all this argument in the book? I bought it at the Bookfair but haven't read it yet.


 
Not really. The book is about AFA nationally. The controversy about Hann is dealt with in a couple of pages. And the two are mentioned in passing on a couple of other occassions. The fact of the matter is that neither were major players. I'd guess that outside Manchester Big Nose would be unknown by 90 per cent of AFA, and Hann totally unknown to to 90 per cent of the opposition. I might be wrong but I'm am not aware of him every having been mentioned by them (BNP etc) even once. Now this maybe because unlike the 'cowards' who fronted the organisation in other areas, Glasgow, Brum, London and so on he never took a nicking. Never charged with a single political offence. Not once.

It is not disputed that as a rank and filer Hann had a credible record on the ground (but no better than a hundred others) but he was no string-puller. He was indeed notorious for not speaking at national meetings/conferences and had zero influence and input politically. So you have Hann the feared street-fighter/leader no one recognises, bolted togther with Tilzey the self-syled 'intelligence chief' everyone on the other side knows. The odd couple. The Rosencrantz and Guildenstern of anti-fascism.


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## love detective (Sep 19, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Is that the same as divulging ( along with Louise )who had been responsible for the 15 year smear campaign against Dave which Ive been happy to do elsewhere no problems or are we playing semantics. Like anyone else it aint rocket science to work out within a couple of names...but it would have been a guess all the same...no real proof but did know who was behind the hate smears and threats you hypocrtical twats (..was I right Mr Love Detective when you saw the 'so called documentation')


 
sorry but if you want to have a go at putting that into something more comprehensible you might get a better response



> No youre a liar true to form.


 
what are you claiming that I am lying about? That the initial letter from Carter Ruck (which was aimed at preventing the book's publication) referred to you as their source for the names of the primary authors?


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## Citizen66 (Sep 19, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> Now this maybe because unlike the 'cowards' who fronted the organisation in other areas, Glasgow, Brum, London and so on he never took a nicking. Never charged with a single political offence. Not once.



Pardon my interjection, but surely not getting nicked when involved in political activity that the state considers criminal is a GOOD thing?


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## Joe Reilly (Sep 19, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> Pardon my interjection, but surely not getting nicked when involved in political activity that the state considers criminal is a GOOD thing?


 
Indeed. And though every effort was made to avoid it happening, after a period of time it became an inevitability, mainly because a) the fascists would happily point out the faces that had distinguished themselves against them and b) the police tended to target certain individuals once they became 'known' to them one way or the other. In London for example the had 'rogues galleries' of activists. With this in mind, and in order to extend the shelflife of key activist's AFA succesfully employed the dark arts in avoiding _conviction_. Over time this seemed to act as a deterrent or equaliser against egregious nickings as the plod knew even when it appeared it was an open and shut case and the candidate was in the bag, they hardly ever were.


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## Joe Reilly (Sep 19, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> And dont start taking the moral high ground on this stuff either l.d as you should refer back to the RA website circa 2003 where they revealed reams of sensitive and personal stuff about me which gave the authorities and the fash plenty of wanking material. Shameful behaviour...


 
Again your forgetting that you retired from active service in the 80's sometime (bad knee wasn't it?) and earlier claimed to have had your memoirs written by the middle of the decade, so apart from going through a few dust-bins, which might be regarded as more than a bit creepy but certainly not illegal, what dastardly deeds could have been revealed about you in 2003 that would have the cold case unit in a fever?

In reality the only thing the RA site ever revealed about you was to confirm your name after your book deal was announced. And you see this as a licence to 'out' everyone else, who for a variety of reasons have no wish to be identified.


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## bignose1 (Sep 19, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> Not really. The book is about AFA nationally. The controversy about Hann is dealt with in a couple of pages. And the two are mentioned in passing on a couple of other occassions. The fact of the matter is that neither were major players. I'd guess that outside Manchester Big Nose would be unknown by 90 per cent of AFA, and Hann totally unknown to to 90 per cent of the opposition. I might be wrong but I'm am not aware of him every having been mentioned by them (BNP etc) even once. Now this maybe because unlike the 'cowards' who fronted the organisation in other areas, Glasgow, Brum, London and so on he never took a nicking. Never charged with a single political offence. Not once.
> 
> It is not disputed that as a rank and filer Hann had a credible record on the ground (but no better than a hundred others) but he was no string-puller. He was indeed notorious for not speaking at national meetings/conferences and had zero influence and input politically. So you have Hann the feared street-fighter/leader no one recognises, bolted togther with Tilzey the self-syled 'intelligence chief' everyone on the other side knows. The odd couple. The Rosencrantz and Guildenstern of anti-fascism.


 Not a major player and not known outside of Manchester....really gary....here we go....should have called it Gary A'Fa shea and you confirm that in reality it was London RA/AFA who dictated the pace. Dave did take some nickings...how many did Denis get. And are you judged only on how many nickings you get. The odd couple...your the only lemon round here mate...


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## bignose1 (Sep 19, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> Again your forgetting that you retired from active service in the 80's sometime (bad knee wasn't it?) and earlier claimed to have had your memoirs written by the middle of the decade, so apart from going through a few dust-bins, which might be regarded as more than a bit creepy but certainly not illegal, what dastardly deeds could have been revealed about you in 2003 that would have the cold case unit in a fever?
> 
> In reality the only thing the RA site ever revealed about you was to confirm your name after your book deal was announced. And you see this as a licence to 'out' everyone else, who for a variety of reasons have no wish to be identified.


What the fuck are you going on about. I was at places where you were til the mid 90's....my active service stopped mid 90's but doesnt mean what you think. By diminishing other peoples service you put yourself up there as the main man again. You stopped around mid 90's which might give you 18 months on me...wow mate...hope you have a pension scheme. Believe me I left out a lot that pales your handful of punch ups into insignificance. The shite on the RA website circa 2003 well I neednt go there. But remember those who live in glass houses.......mmmmm


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## bignose1 (Sep 19, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> Again your forgetting that you retired from active service in the 80's sometime (bad knee wasn't it?) and earlier claimed to have had your memoirs written by the middle of the decade, so apart from going through a few dust-bins, which might be regarded as more than a bit creepy but certainly not illegal, what dastardly deeds could have been revealed about you in 2003 that would have the cold case unit in a fever?
> 
> In reality the only thing the RA site ever revealed about you was to confirm your name after your book deal was announced. And you see this as a licence to 'out' everyone else, who for a variety of reasons have no wish to be identified.


 When you assisted in writing the book did you assume people would not have an inkling who might have been behind it really Joe. I outed you....I think you are seriously deluded. There is no credible reason on that basis why you didnt. And if you think you did you had then no right to name/defame me and put me on offer in your book. Try harder.


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## The39thStep (Sep 19, 2012)

Just come back from a relaxing week near Barcelona . Somethings never change when you have been away do they?


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## The39thStep (Sep 19, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> yeah i just wanted to clarify what he was saying. obviously the 20s/30s in Germany were infinitely more violent and high in fatalities than london in the 70s!!! unbelievably so reading through it all recently. and trotters! good one!


 
The number of Trots actually involved in anti fascsism was miniscule when he was writing . Rosenhafts Beating the Fascists is a far better read.


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## bignose1 (Sep 19, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> Just come back from a relaxing week near Barcelona . Somethings never change when you have been away do they?


39 the Joe Reilly chap couldnt resist yet another oppurtunity to undermine others. He's gone all weird politically and therefore harks back to the old days when he was perhaps useful in a punch up but that isnt enough any more....as I know only too well from my own experience withe my ex associates at S/light


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## love detective (Sep 19, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> When you assisted in writing the book did you assume people would not have an inkling who might have been behind it really Joe.


 
there's a difference between people, who are 'in the know', having an inkling as to who was involved and those people actually handing over a list of names to a legal firm identifying the primary authors


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## chilango (Sep 19, 2012)

chilango said:


> Absolutely.
> 
> The endless re-hashing of those events in Manchester and elsewhere 20 years ago do _not_ contribute to this.
> 
> ...


 
Almost 4 months on...


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## audiotech (Sep 19, 2012)

..


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## bignose1 (Sep 19, 2012)

love detective said:


> there's a difference between people, who are 'in the know', having an inkling as to who was involved and those people actually handing over a list of names to a legal firm identifying the primary authors


 Handing over a list ....are you fucking real!!??


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## love detective (Sep 19, 2012)

whether it was handing over a list or mentioning a number of names in a telephone conversation with a Carter Ruck lawyer - the point remains the same, what justification could there possibly be for doing such a thing?


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## bignose1 (Sep 19, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Handing over a list ....are you fucking real!!??


 What about the Red Action websites careful, measured and sensitive handling of things around 2003....in other words a hate flilled tirade that outed individuals on both personal and political levels. Plus the recent outing by O'Shea/DC of an Irish political activist...disgraceful..


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## love detective (Sep 19, 2012)

you seem to have avoided the question I asked you

(and given that on 11 Jan 2003 you and dave published No Retreat under your own names, how could anyone be accused of politically outing you in 2003?)


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## bignose1 (Sep 19, 2012)

love detective said:


> whether it was handing over a list or mentioning a number of names in a telephone conversation with a Carter Ruck lawyer - the point remains the same, what justification could there possibly be for doing such a thing?


 If for a minute I did what you say....there would be plenty of reasons on a pure revenge level after what they had subjected me , Dave and others to on their website following NR's publication.....but at that time revenge wasnt enough to motivate me...might be different now..you are completely in c c land with this. It was a particularly painful time for Dave family and you cunts have no right to demand anything.


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## bignose1 (Sep 19, 2012)

love detective said:


> you seem to have avoided the question I asked you
> 
> (and given that on 11 Jan 2003 you and dave published No Retreat under your own names, how could anyone be accused of politically outing you in 2003?)


 Come on you can do better than that...


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## Joe Reilly (Sep 19, 2012)

audiotech said:


> Indeed.
> 
> Ex AFA bod speaking here.


 
Yep, one of the best in the 85 -89 period. It was her for instance that denounced the conspiracy to expel RA for racism in 1987. The arch conspirator, Jeff R. had written to her offering her to name her price if she would back him in ousting RA. As chair of the inquiry she allowed him to speak, where he eloquently and convincingly denied that ridding AFA of RA was his primary motivation in bringing the charges. She then reached into her bag and read his letter to her back to him! It's a cliche but you really could have heard a pin drop.

He listened in silence and sat down without a word. It was so thorough a disembowelling I almost felt sorry for him. Almost. And even though she was at absolute loggerheads with RA in the run up to The Main Event in 1989, she still provided one nugget of info (even though sworn to silence by her ally Searchlight) that was pivotal to the success of the operation on the day. She even took a couple of nickings in her time. Old school. That kind of integrity was rare enough then, and hard to even imagine now.


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## Joe Reilly (Sep 19, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> The number of Trots actually involved in anti fascsism was miniscule when he was writing . Rosenhafts Beating the Fascists is a far better read.


 
Yep, an absolute gem. Literally packed with outstanding details all (e.g 18,000 RFL fighters recipients of Red Aid in just one year - injured in fighting the fash) which combine to make the Trot charge that the KPD were the ones that ducked the battle against the Nazis such a vile and politically damaging lie.

Incidentally the full title is 'Beating the Fascists*?' *question mark, that helps distinguishes it from our own august publication. It is not the only thing sadly, but we can only do our best!


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## love detective (Sep 19, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> If for a minute I did what you say....there would be plenty of reasons on a pure revenge level after what they had subjected me


 
ok, so you did it to get revenge on people who outed you politically after the publication of No Retreat which was published in your own name?

or you did it to get revenge on people who questioned the content of what was contained in No Retreat?

do either of these things seriously justify giving Carter Ruck the names of the authors of the book? And previously you said you were only involved as you wanted to honourably help Louise with her supposed grievance over the book's content - so did you hand over the names of authors to help Louise as you said earlier (and why would the authors names be required when the dispute was with the publisher of the book) or was it purely for revenge as you say now?

No one is denying that it was a particular painful time for Dave's family, but a large part of that is due to the activities of Dave himself

(and of course the fact that Louise was/is intending to publish a history of anti-fascism in the 20th century played no part in the attempts to prevent the publication of any competing histories that are out there)


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## audiotech (Sep 19, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> Yep, one of the best in the 85 -89 period. It was her for instance that denounced the conspiracy to expel RA for racism in 1987. The arch conspirator, Jeff R. had written to her offering her to name her price if she would back him in ousting RA. As chair of the inquiry she allowed him to speak, where he eloquently and convincingly denied that ridding AFA of RA was his primary motivation in bringing the charges. She then reached into her bag and read his letter to her back to him! It's a cliche but you really could have heard a pin drop.
> 
> He listened in silence and sat down without a word. It was so thorough a disembowelling I almost felt sorry for him. Almost. And even though she was at absolute loggerheads with RA in the run up to The Main Event in 1989, she still provided one nugget of info (even though sworn to silence by her ally Searchlight) that was pivotal to the success of the operation on the day. She even took a couple of nickings in her time. Old school. That kind of integrity was rare enough then, and hard to even imagine now.


 
I actually stayed over at Jeff R's house one night, with a mate, after some anti-fascist activity, late 70's. He later parted from the political group he was involved with and became known as an "independent" from then on. Haven't had any contact with him since, well apart from an exchange of nods, after a demo some years ago. Writing down his machinations and passing them on not a good idea in hindsight for him then.


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## cantsin (Sep 19, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> NO I think of them in mainly political terms. AND if I have given names to a law firm then only the law firm would be in a position to divulge that information (under client confidentiality). Will OShea therefore show me any documenation/evidence to that effect. And dont start taking the moral high ground on this stuff either l.d as you should refer back to the RA website circa 2003 where they revealed reams of sensitive and personal stuff about me which gave the authorities and the fash plenty of wanking material. Shameful behaviour and you need to address that mate before having a poke at me.
> Supplying names my arse. Wasnt it the same lawyers they used to relieve a local Labour party of 20k. Did they name names ?? I believe though if you write a book then fucking do it without using a hooky name. Even the football hooligan bods do. When I wrote NR I left loads out as it would finger either myself for stuff I was doing mainly with others and bigger stuff that may have been risky or helpful to the enemies. You should have put your names to it and be the big men you claim to be.


 

 I dont follow this spat full time, am sure I've missed loads, and always thought there seemed to be points on both sides etc, certainly more so than pre the existence of this thread, when I would have only heard the RA response to NR.

But in this post you seem to have : 

Tacitly admitted to handing over Anti fascists names and addresses to a law firm (WTF ?) 
Tried to justify that in the context of the political online flack you suffered after NR
Made the ridiculous claim that as limelight seeking hoolies put their name to their books ( normally ensuring they dont self incriminate/grass others for anything that hasnt already gone before the courts etc ) , the authors of a book that details legally sensitive political direct action should follow suit / "be the big men" 
Yet again dragged up the IWCA vs Lab liars law suit that has been dealt with repeatedly and openly by those involved
Sounds v shabby - Time to turn it in ?


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## bignose1 (Sep 20, 2012)

cantsin said:


> I dont follow this spat full time, am sure I've missed loads, and always thought there seemed to be points on both sides etc, certainly more so than pre the existence of this thread, when I would have only heard the RA response to NR.
> 
> But in this post you seem to have :
> 
> ...


 
 What do you mean tacitly handed over....As Ive said that did not happen. How the fuck would I know for certain who the authores were and even so every tom dick cop fash and harry would be able to work something out so get a grip of your moralising shite. The online flack for your knowledge was deeply offensive and hurtful especially to Daves family....you ask for favours and some sort of queensberry rules ...dont fucking think so. Hoolie books have named people i can think of at least two where people have been pissed off...dont think its that ridiculous...then you quote legally sensitve direct action ...where did you drag that one up from. On at least 3  occasions the book might as well as offered people up on a plate to the cops. In my opinion if you are prepared to write a book about your(AFA) experiences then authenticate it with a legitimate authorship. Even more so when for the past 8 years the same people have continually undermined, lied. smeared and threatened those behind NR. Including the most foul behaviour towards Dave Hanns family. A dirty sick episode carried out by those said people who are now crying foul. Regards the IWCA and Labour law suit...why should your issue be any different to daves family..they must have named names...used the system and got a wedge from it. All Louise etc got was a tirade of foul abuse. Get a grip on reality before you start your sanctimonious shite


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## bignose1 (Sep 20, 2012)

love detective said:


> ok, so you did it to get revenge on people who outed you politically after the publication of No Retreat which was published in your own name?
> 
> or you did it to get revenge on people who questioned the content of what was contained in No Retreat?
> 
> ...


This is the last Ill say on this as you are deliberately missing the point. What loyalty do I have to the wankers who have smeared me and others for quite a number of years who are now seeking a game with rules. Fuck right off. I didnt and couldnt hand names over get it into your head. I wouldnt/couldnt know it would have been pure guess work. The fash, cops and god knows who else would have come up with a similar list. If hypothetically speaking names were given then who the fuck are you to dictate the morals of that when the said people were behind such disgusting personal attacks. A disgrace that your even going there.


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## love detective (Sep 20, 2012)

I'm not missing the point at all

You are correct that the fash, cops and god knows who else could have come up with a similar list

From the very start of this discussion, my point has been that the letter from Carter Ruck did not refer to the fash, cops or god knows who else as their source for the names of the authors, it explicitly referred to you as the source

Perhaps Carter Ruck are lying about it, but it would seem odd to put a lie like that in a legal letter

You say it's a disgrace that I am even 'going there' - but all i've done is to point out what I saw in the Carter Ruck letter and ask you whether you think it was justifiable for someone to provide a law firm with details of anti-fascists. You seem to be both arguing that you didn't do this, but that if it did happen it would be justified under the circumstances. So i guess I have my answer.


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## malatesta32 (Sep 20, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> The number of Trots actually involved in anti fascsism was miniscule when he was writing . Rosenhafts Beating the Fascists is a far better read.


it is probably the best thing i have read in researching europe wide AF history. frightening the amount of fatal violence. it needs to be republished and also a lot cheaper than the 20 quid i bought it for! have plugged it several times on the blog!


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## malatesta32 (Sep 20, 2012)

re: this ongoing spat


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## butchersapron (Sep 20, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> it is probably the best thing i have read in researching europe wide AF history. frightening the amount of fatal violence. it needs to be republished and also a lot cheaper than the 20 quid i bought it for! have plugged it several times on the blog!


It's a great book, but there's loads more than just that that you need to get the full picture. The amount of fatal violence in the late 20s/early 30s was tiny compared to the fighting 1919, 1921 and 1923 - though on an upward trajectory until early 1933  - and i don't mean the attempted insurrections - i mean the fighting between left-wingers and the right wing combat Leagues - not the freikorps crushing Hamburg etc.


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## ayatollah (Sep 20, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> Yep, one of the best in the 85 -89 period. It was her for instance that denounced the conspiracy to expel RA for racism in 1987. The arch conspirator, Jeff R. had written to her offering her to name her price if she would back him in ousting RA. As chair of the inquiry she allowed him to speak, where he eloquently and convincingly denied that ridding AFA of RA was his primary motivation in bringing the charges. She then reached into her bag and read his letter to her back to him! It's a cliche but you really could have heard a pin drop.
> 
> He listened in silence and sat down without a word. It was so thorough a disembowelling I almost felt sorry for him. Almost. And even though she was at absolute loggerheads with RA in the run up to The Main Event in 1989, she still provided one nugget of info (even though sworn to silence by her ally Searchlight) that was pivotal to the success of the operation on the day. She even took a couple of nickings in her time. Old school. That kind of integrity was rare enough then, and hard to even imagine now.


 

JR was one of the most politically untrustworthy people I ever came across, and I've come across a few - definitely one to fit that character sitting alone on the forum steps when in "Life of Brian" someone says "whatever happened to the  Revolutionery League for the Liberation of Judea " (or whatever)... and someone points over to the JR type ... "There he is"....  A splitter and wrecker par excellence.

He was tasked  by the AFA National Steering group with me in (86...87 ?) to hold a "commission of enquiry" to investigate the charges against Class War. JR did absolutely nothing to investigate the charges.. wheareas I did.. and found them to be groundless ... simply a Searchlight smear campaign. JR came round to my house to write the final report.. and wanted it to be a hatchet job, regardless of the lack of evidence. I told him to "put up or shut up", and presented him with the draft report I had written myself already  -- and JR just had to sign it as "joint investigator" .. which he very grudgingly did .. dismisssing all the charges against Class War as baseless ! 

 Of course . as you say, he later in 1987 came back (with me now moved to Scotland and retired from active politics --- worn out after 16 years of it) with a new conspiracy against, this time Red Action. Though in my penultimate act  I actually chaired  a AFA National Steering Group meeting in 1987, just before the National Conference in Bradford,  where I thought (wrongly) that I had managed to squash the anti RA bollocks pretty firmly. The conspirators obviously rallied again once I had split the scene.

My last experience of JR, and his machinations, was the shambolic  1987 AFA National Conference, in JR's hometown of Bradford. JR and his chums sat the night before as the "hosting body's" Conference Arrangements Committee, and completely fucked up the conference by setting a deliberately ludicrous sectarian agenda which reduced the entire days conference to a futile debate about the NAME of the organisation (removing the hard AFA name and substitituting some wishy washy, "anti racist" name instead). The only actual discussion of fighting fascism which happened at that conference was a discussion I led in the lunch break........tragic !  People like JR were, and are , the absolute curse of the Left.... Fortunately the Far Right seem to be just as plagued by them too. Lucky.

I wonder what damage the guy has done on the Left in the years since ?


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## bignose1 (Sep 20, 2012)

love detective said:


> I'm not missing the point at all
> 
> You are correct that the fash, cops and god knows who else could have come up with a similar list
> 
> ...


Maybe it would be justified because these people acted like scum and that behaviour cannot be defended by the quoting of being anti fascists because they removed themselves from that by their disgraceful actions and I mean viscious dirty, shitty you name it they lowered it. Ive emailed Carter Ruck and am awaiting their response. I did not name names as I couldnt possibly know...are you a clown....cant you understand that...or are you really not interested.


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## bignose1 (Sep 20, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> re: this ongoing spat


 Malatesta....its never going to stop I fear as they are completely obsessed by this...i would have thought they would once their score settling book came out but obviously not to be. If you care to see how these conflagrations ocurr it will usually be by them raking up all the old stuff then sitting back for the ensuing shitfest. Sorry.


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## love detective (Sep 20, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Maybe it would be justified because these people acted like scum and that behaviour cannot be defended by the quoting of being anti fascists because they removed themselves from that by their disgraceful actions and I mean viscious dirty, shitty you name it they lowered it. Ive emailed Carter Ruck and am awaiting their response. I did not name names as I couldnt possibly know...are you a clown....cant you understand that...or are you really not interested.


If you didn't name names (although you see no problem in doing so if you had done) then I suggest you take your venom out on Carter Ruck who explicitly referred to you as the source of those names in a legal 'cease & desist' letter sent to the book's publishers


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## krink (Sep 20, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> The amount of fatal violence in the late 20s/early 30s was tiny compared to the fighting 1919, 1921 and 1923 - though on an upward trajectory until early 1933 - and i don't mean the attempted insurrections - i mean the fighting between left-wingers and the right wing combat Leagues - not the freikorps crushing Hamburg etc.


 
where could i read about this butchers?cheers.


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## butchersapron (Sep 20, 2012)

krink said:


> where could i read about this butchers?cheers.


I'm away from home and my books atm but off top of head i'd have a look at Political Violence and the Rise of Nazism: The Storm Troopers in Eastern Germany, 1925-1934 by Richard Bessel, Political Violence in the Weimar Republic, 1918-1933: Fight for the Streets and Fear of Civil War by Dirk Schumann, Vanguard of Nazism: Free Corps Movement in Postwar Germany, 1918-2 by RGL Waite, Stormtroopers: A Social, Economic and Ideological Analysis, 1929-35 by Conan Fishcher, Communist Resistance in Nazi Germany by Allan Merson.


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## malatesta32 (Sep 20, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> It's a great book, but there's loads more than just that that you need to get the full picture. The amount of fatal violence in the late 20s/early 30s was tiny compared to the fighting 1919, 1921 and 1923 - though on an upward trajectory until early 1933 - and i don't mean the attempted insurrections - i mean the fighting between left-wingers and the right wing combat Leagues - not the freikorps crushing Hamburg etc.


 
i got quite a few - hammer and anvil, making of nazi stormtrooper etc - which give ample stuff about violence in the period you mention. sadly the history of antifascism is mainly buried in the history of fascism which requires a lot of reading fairly dodgy points of view about it all. there simply arent enough accounts by antifascism - apart from beckman, rosenhaft etc - which makes this ongoing spat depressing as NR and BTF are both grand reads and 2 of the very few accounts by militant antifascists regardless of folks points of view!


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## malatesta32 (Sep 20, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> Yep, an absolute gem. Literally packed with outstanding details all (e.g 18,000 RFL fighters recipients of Red Aid in just one year - injured in fighting the fash) which combine to make the Trot charge that the KPD were the ones that ducked the battle against the Nazis such a vile and politically damaging lie.
> 
> Incidentally the full title is 'Beating the Fascists*?' *question mark, that helps distinguishes it from our own august publication. It is not the only thing sadly, but we can only do our best!


 
yes bollocks to that KPD injuries and fatalities were heavy. didnt know about the trot chagre - who specifically. also, the KPD/NSPD 'strike' - any other sources disputing this? i got hammer or anvil which deals with it a wee bit. other accounts puff it up somewhat and are clearly anti militant.


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## butchersapron (Sep 20, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> i got quite a few - hammer and anvil, making of nazi stormtrooper etc - which give ample stuff about violence in the period you mention. sadly the history of antifascism is mainly buried in the history of fascism which requires a lot of reading fairly dodgy points of view about it all. there simply arent enough accounts by antifascism - apart from beckman, rosenhaft etc - which makes this ongoing spat depressing as NR and BTF are both grand reads and 2 of the very few accounts by militant antifascists regardless of folks points of view!


Hammer and anvil doesn't really cover it at all and it's 50 years behind modern research. And whilst first person accounts and impressionistic overviews of 50 years of history like Anderson's are useful, they are not analysis. They need to be read with the other material providing the wider more informed context that then allow you to reach conclusions on things like the extent of the fighting, what forms it took, who was involved, what methods did different situations throw up, what was the relationship between the parties fighting groups, between the party leadership and the local leadership, between them and the fighters, what traditions did they mobilise and organise around and so on.


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## Joe Reilly (Sep 20, 2012)

audiotech said:


> I actually stayed over at Jeff R's house one night, with a mate, after some anti-fascist activity, late 70's. He later parted from the political group he was involved with and became known as an "independent" from then on. Haven't had any contact with him since, well apart from an exchange of nods, after a demo some years ago. Writing down his machinations and passing them on not a good idea in hindsight for him then.


 
Well it wasn't just him. He was the ringmaster at the 1987 conference referred to by Ayatollah, and laid the groundwork for the racist allegations there, but a small number of branches supported the suspension - though the meeting wasn't quorate, and the charges and suspension were implemented without any RA delegates being present. A similar witch hunt against CW with a different list of characters with Searchlight and NMP to the fore had proven succesful the previous year despite opposition from DAM and RA, who both walked out in protest. So while Jeff R carried the can, others were also involved.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 20, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> yes bollocks to that KPD injuries and fatalities were heavy. didnt know about the trot chagre - who specifically. also, the KPD/NSPD 'strike' - any other sources disputing this? i got hammer or anvil which deals with it a wee bit. other accounts puff it up somewhat and are clearly anti militant.


It's the standard left-wing charge that the KPD scuppered a united front with the SPD through a) making it impossible through attacking the SPD as 'social fascists' and b) sat back with their arms crossed saying 'after hitler, us'. It fails to mention the SPD making the united front impossible through calling in the freikorps repeaterdly in from 1919 to 23, by killing 33 communists in the 1928 fighting and so on. (leaving aside the problems with the united front analysis for now).


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## malatesta32 (Sep 20, 2012)

brilliant thanks butchers! i am 'at the but n ben' redrafting the 1st half (pre-war europe) the now and this is well helpful. spent a fortune on amazon with some pretty dismal returns! i have managed to sieve out most of the key events from it all tho and am pretty pleased with the progress.


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## Nigel Irritable (Sep 20, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> It's the standard left-wing charge that the KPD scuppered a united front with the SPD through a) making it impossible through attacking the SPD as 'social fascists' and b) sat back with their arms crossed saying 'after hitler, us'. It fails to mention the SPD making the united front impossible through calling in the freikorps repeaterdly in from 1919 to 23, by killing 33 communists in the 1928 fighting and so on. (leaving aside the problems with the united front analysis for now).


 
The standard left-wing charge against the KPD is in no way incompatible with a left wing charge against the SPD. Many KPD workers fought heroically, but they were hindered by a catastrophic strategy. Too often both their critics and their apologists confuse the two issues.


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## malatesta32 (Sep 20, 2012)

yes the SPD called in plod on several occasions to attack KPD. why the fuck shd they 'stand with' (to use soccer terms) someone who has attacked them previously? its like asking anarchos to join up with blairite labour!


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## Nigel Irritable (Sep 20, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> yes the SPD called in plod on several occasions to attack KPD. why the fuck shd they 'stand with' (to use soccer terms) someone who has attacked them previously?


 
That's hardly a difficult question to answer in the context of the time.


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## malatesta32 (Sep 20, 2012)

the class v class thing and 'social fascists' would have alienated some socialists surely but i found that many socialists fought alongside the KPD/red front/AFa etc as they were locally based and probably with their mates from school and work regardless of spd edicts to do the contrary. it was more a neighbourhood battle ground than say trafalgar square,, brick lane etc.


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## bignose1 (Sep 20, 2012)

love detective said:


> If you didn't name names (although you see no problem in doing so if you had done) then I suggest you take your venom out on Carter Ruck who explicitly referred to you as the source of those names in a legal 'cease & desist' letter sent to the book's publishers


 Put up or shut up.....
This naming names bollox regardless...cant you get that when you lot took the gloves off approach to the authors of NR you effectively lost any rights to any of that shit. The fact that you still pursue this is beyond belief. The Catrter Ruck lot were already au fait with the ins and outs...i think they had already make a few enquiries before I ever spoke to them which did not include who I thought the author/s were because I couldnt have known you clown...dont you understand.!! Dont hide behind the aggrieved hard done to grassed up baloney. Its a bit like Ribbentrop at the Nuremburg Trials slagging Stalin after attacking Russia for tearing up the Non Aggression Pact.


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## love detective (Sep 20, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Put up or shut up.....


 
are you asking me to post up a copy of the letter here on a public forum?


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## bignose1 (Sep 20, 2012)

love detective said:


> are you asking me to post up a copy of the letter here on a public forum?


 Do whatever you fucking want. I really couldnt give a fuck. I am for the last time telling you 'how could I know who the authors were and what loyalty have I to them anyway after their disgraceful behaviour following Daves death' Cant you get that ffs.


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## bignose1 (Sep 20, 2012)

love detective said:


> are you asking me to post up a copy of the letter here on a public forum?


It would be like me putting forward a list of names here now....perm any 5 from 10 any 3 from 5 blah blah. At the time this happened I was feeling very charged. Louise and her kids were still grieving you lot were pursuing him beyond the grave and in doing so put yourself completely on offer. Just answer me.....how would I know who the authors were....(dont sidestep that again). And secondly at risk of repeating myself why should I have given/give a fuck if I had done? Who are you to me??


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## love detective (Sep 20, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Just answer me.....how would I know who the authors were....(dont sidestep that again)


 
Well you've kind of answered this yourself in your previous posts, in that most people 'in the know' would have a good idea who the authors were

But this isn't really the point, whether you knew exactly who they were or did not, Carter Ruck referred to you as their source for who they were

So all im asking is, are Carter Ruck lying?


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## bignose1 (Sep 20, 2012)

love detective said:


> Well you've kind of answered this yourself in your previous posts, in that most people 'in the know' would have a good idea who the authors were
> 
> But this isn't really the point, whether you knew exactly who they were or did not, Carter Ruck referred to you as their source for who they were
> 
> So all im asking is, are Carter Ruck lying?


 This is laughable...youv'e just contradicted yourself...you say Ive outed the authors and now you were 'about' to out me using Carter Ruck...so in effect you are willing to use a firm of lawyers to 'out' an anti fascist author...wtfffff


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## bignose1 (Sep 20, 2012)

love detective said:


> Well you've kind of answered this yourself in your previous posts, in that most people 'in the know' would have a good idea who the authors were
> 
> But this isn't really the point, whether you knew exactly who they were or did not, Carter Ruck referred to you as their source for who they were
> 
> So all im asking is, are Carter Ruck lying?


Scenario....
Carter Ruck '' Who do you think are the authors of BTF''
Bignose1 '' Not sure could be former Red Action/AFA members''

End of investigation.


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## love detective (Sep 20, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> This is laughable...youv'e just contradicted yourself...you say Ive outed the authors and now you were 'about' to out me using Carter Ruck...


are you unwell? where did i say I was 'about' to out you?

You told me to 'put up or shut up'

I asked if this was a request for me to post the letter on a public internet forum



> in effect you are willing to use a firm of lawyers to 'out' an anti fascist author


 
i'm not - although ironically you've summed up exactly what you did


----------



## bignose1 (Sep 20, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Scenario....
> Carter Ruck '' Who do you think are the authors of BTF''
> Bignose1 '' Not sure could be former Red Action/AFA members''
> 
> End of investigation.


Scenario 2
Carter Ruck '' Who was behind the disgraceful smears and threats against Dave Hann in the period up to his death''
Bignose1 '' former Red Action/AFA members''


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## love detective (Sep 20, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Scenario....
> Carter Ruck '' Who do you think are the authors of BTF''
> Bignose1 '' Not sure could be Red Action/AFA members''
> 
> End of investigation.


 
So Carter Ruck were lying then when they referred to you as their source of a list of specific names of the authors of the book, and other information about those specific names?


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## bignose1 (Sep 20, 2012)

love detective said:


> So Carter Ruck were lying then when they referred to you as their source of a list of specific names of the authors of the book, and other information about those specific names?


 Are you really stupid...I say once more 'how would I know who the author/s were'
And if I did then why should I have given a fuck considering what they had done.
I suggest you take time to think about this whole thing...maybe go for a stroll and think about whether if you had kids who had just lost their dad how you might feel...or are you such a twisted cunt.


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## Joe Reilly (Sep 20, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> It's the standard left-wing charge that the KPD scuppered a united front with the SPD through a) making it impossible through attacking the SPD as 'social fascists' and b) sat back with their arms crossed saying 'after hitler, us'. It fails to mention the SPD making the united front impossible through calling in the freikorps repeaterdly in from 1919 to 23, by killing 33 communists in the 1928 fighting and so on. (leaving aside the problems with the united front analysis for now).


 
The other points that's just as often missed/overlooked/airbrushed is that the 'united front' was a Trot chimera that would have delivered very little at best, basically because the SPD though and enormous party, especially when compared to the forces available to the KPD had no stomach, (as the respective levels of injuries and fatalities show) for the fight against the Nazis anyway. By pointing the blame at the KPD Trotskyism has let the SPD of the hook, thereby distorting the lessons that ought to have been absorbed - but, if we look at present day Europe, clearly haven't been.


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## malatesta32 (Sep 20, 2012)

the SPD failed to combat fascist aggression when the KPD sensibly saw the threat to WC community and organisations. the SPD were the government and hardly likely to be doing drive bys and attacking fascists' clubs. altho they got their fighting league together eventually the idea of a popular front of KPD SPD was not going to happen cos of the past and ideological and (i think rosenhaft says) cos of age/culture/employment etc differences.


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## Inigo Montoya (Sep 20, 2012)

For those interested, AFA Ireland are publishing a 30,000+ word, full colour pamphlet on the 5th October to mark their 21st birthday. The first section deals with the Irish far-right and opposition to them from 1945 to the late 1980s. The second section deals with the background to the formation of AFA (late 1980s) and then the work the organisation has done from 1991 until 2012.

More on the weekend: http://www.afa-ireland.com/21stbirthday/

More on the history side of things (photo album): https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.419172908143031.97313.192377537489237&type=3


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## malatesta32 (Sep 20, 2012)

ah fantastic! was wondering how it was going! well done and i shall no doubt be ripping into it for me book!


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## love detective (Sep 20, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Are you really stupid...I say once more 'how would I know who the author/s were'
> And if I did then why should I have given a fuck considering what they had done.
> I suggest you take time to think about this whole thing...maybe go for a stroll and think about whether if you had kids who had just lost their dad how you might feel...or are you such a twisted cunt.


 
Look, i don't know how many times I can repeat the same point - Carter Ruck have said in a legal 'cease & desist' letter that you told them things that here you deny you told them (yet claim if you had told them you would be justified in doing so)

That you go ballistic at me for pointing out what has been said about you by a firm of lawyers is absurd - if it's a lie, then take it up with them not me. If it's the truth then stop blaming me for it


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## malatesta32 (Sep 20, 2012)

looks like a cracking weekend too!​


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## bignose1 (Sep 20, 2012)

love detective said:


> Look, i don't know how many times I can repeat the same point - Carter Ruck have said in a legal 'cease & desist' letter that you told them things that here you deny you told them (yet claim if you had told them you would be justified in doing so)
> 
> That you go ballistic at me for pointing out what has been said about you by a firm of lawyers is absurd - if it's a lie, then take it up with them not me. If it's the truth then stop blaming me for it


I am taking it up with them too......because I definately did not name the authors...and at the risk of me getting a coronary....how would I fucking know who were the authors...educated guesses dont get you results when lawyer types are involved ....it would have been guesswork pure and simple...
I named the authors of BTF...come on and even in my frustration where I say that their  a bunch of cunts for reasons stated previously HOW WOULD I KNOW... derrrrrrrr


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## bignose1 (Sep 20, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> looks like a cracking weekend too!​


Absolutely....any one on here ever done the Mondiali/Anti Racist World Cup in Italy in July..?


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## malatesta32 (Sep 20, 2012)

no, what is it chap? does it have owt do with soccer?


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## Joe Reilly (Sep 20, 2012)

cantsin said:


> I dont follow this spat full time, am sure I've missed loads, and always thought there seemed to be points on both sides etc, certainly more so than pre the existence of this thread, when I would have only heard the RA response to NR.
> 
> But in this post you seem to have :
> 
> ...


 
Marcus Aurelius: "Commodous is not a moral man..."

Commodous: "But I have other virtues..."


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## Joe Reilly (Sep 20, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> In my opinion if you are prepared to write a book about your(AFA) experiences then authenticate it with a legitimate authorship. Even more so when for the past 8 years the same people have continually undermined, lied. smeared and threatened those behind NR. Including the most foul behaviour towards Dave Hanns family. A dirty sick episode carried out by those said people who are now crying foul...


 
 After two years of claim and counter claim on here a freshly minted allegation - can there even be one hitherto dupable fence-sitter left who believes a single word of it?


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## Pickman's model (Sep 20, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> After two years of claim and counter claim on here a freshly minted allegation - can there even be one hitherto dupable fence-sitter left who believes a single word of it?


only if the fence has gone up their arse and addled their brain.


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## SpineyNorman (Sep 20, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> brilliant thanks butchers! i am 'at the but n ben' redrafting the 1st half (pre-war europe) the now and this is well helpful. spent a fortune on amazon with some pretty dismal returns! i have managed to sieve out most of the key events from it all tho and am pretty pleased with the progress.


 
Are you gonna put your real name to it though?


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## DaveCinzano (Sep 20, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> Are you gonna put your real name to it though?


Who'd buy a book by someone called Hen Broon?


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## audiotech (Sep 21, 2012)

What about not wanting to get involved in lengthy personal spats?


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## Riklet (Sep 21, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> This thread is called 'Beating the Fascists'. Which is the name of the book about the campaign by AFA against the NF,BNP, B&H C18 and so forth. The sole purpose of the book was to set the record stratight and point to the lessons that can be learned from it.
> 
> But how can anyone learn anything if they don't know who or what to believe?
> 
> ...


 
Good reply, unsurprisingly.

Bit of a dance with exaggeration there, bignose1 has been challenged for about 300 hundred fucking pages, i was just pointing out what still stands, it's currently about 5 people - ex-comrades who've fallen out arguing over the messy details.  Obviously it's pretty hard not to be fairly swayed by the various posts you and others have made, especially when bignose1 sort-of-maybe-not admits handing over peoples' names to law firms and stuff.

What chilango posted about generally the ongoing bun not really changing minds still rings true though, nothing much has changed in my head really, it's just a bit of a sorry state really, if setting the record straight means turning it into a decade long argument that excludes all but about 10 people from any meaningful or interesting input then fuck it IMO.

The passed might not be passed but the decade long public beef is pretty passed it.


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## bignose1 (Sep 21, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> only if the fence has gone up their arse and addled their brain.


Like what you say on this matter bothers me....whats your track record....another tosser hiding behind anonymity....who are all you dirt dishing faceless twats..


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## bignose1 (Sep 21, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> Marcus Aurelius: "Commodous is not a moral man..."
> 
> Commodous: "But I have other virtues..."


Grossustnosiusuno says...''what a twat you are...''


----------



## chilango (Sep 21, 2012)

Bignose. You don't help yourself with posts like this.



bignose1 said:


> Like what you say on this matter bothers me....whats your track record....another tosser hiding behind anonymity....who are all you dirt dishing faceless twats..


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 21, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Like what you say on this matter bothers me....whats your track record....another tosser hiding behind anonymity....who are all you dirt dishing faceless twats..


So you'd prefer to judge us on what we've done instead of being judged yourself on what you say. given what you've posted I can quite understand why that is.


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## bignose1 (Sep 21, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> So you'd prefer to judge us on what we've done instead of being judged yourself on what you say. given what you've posted I can quite understand why that is.


 Listen Pickmans Model...you jump on me...I dont even know you...and start passing judgement on me. I ask you who you are and what youve done so I can get a picture who Im dealing with and that in some way will determine my response. You seem to think its all right for you to slaughter me gratuitously with the likes of O'Shea though who I might add has some unsavoury items in his 'past' locker. I cant see why its such a difficult concept to grasp. It could be akin to joey barton calling Pele a shit player...The only people who call me a cunt these days are those from that period. I am a very popular well respected and highly regarded twat up here. Work it out.


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## bignose1 (Sep 21, 2012)

chilango said:


> Bignose. You don't help yourself with posts like this.


Sure none of this is truly inspiring stuff but there is a shitstorm brewing with these twats and I know what they are trying to do...they did it with Dave. It wont work..they are washed up and reading what they say....in particular Joe Reilly....(a complex guy my arse)...He is a particularly nasty unpleasant bully whose recent 'take' on the anti fascist/racism picture is shameful. Not because of his personal poisonous attack dog ways but because of his utterly indefensible pampering to racist ideas.


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## bignose1 (Sep 21, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> no, what is it chap? does it have owt do with soccer?


 It does have a lot to do with soccer unfortunately Mal...as its a bit of an anti-fash ultras jamboree with music & politics and a fair bit of slurp. Check out the Schalke/Fortuna 'Spider Juice' ...courtesy of Conehead and Maier...and youll find out why its called that!!


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## malatesta32 (Sep 21, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> Are you gonna put your real name to it though?


 
no, for 2 reasons. first being that the blog had has 10s of 1,000s of hits and the pieces have been circulated widely by others so the name is well known now and 2, i dont want eejits turning up at the door freaking the hamsters out.


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## Pickman's model (Sep 21, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Listen Pickmans Model...you jump on me...I dont even know you...and start passing judgement on me. I ask you who you are and what youve done so I can get a picture who Im dealing with and that in some way will determine my response. You seem to think its all right for you to slaughter me gratuitously with the likes of O'Shea though who I might add has some unsavoury items in his 'past' locker. I cant see why its such a difficult concept to grasp. It could be akin to joey barton calling Pele a shit player...The only people who call me a cunt these days are those from that period. I am a very popular well respected and highly regarded twat up here. Work it out.


fucking get over yourself! you make hundreds of posts on a fucking bulletin board which any cunt with google can read, of course people are going to have some views on you. 

if i've chosen not to post a biography on here, it's because i don't want to. i'm not going to change that just because your feelings are aggrieved. my view of you's based on your posts, not on what you're like off the boards.


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## bignose1 (Sep 21, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> fucking get over yourself! you make hundreds of posts on a fucking bulletin board which any cunt with google can read, of course people are going to have some views on you.
> 
> if i've chosen not to post a biography on here, it's because i don't want to. i'm not going to change that just because your feelings are aggrieved. my view of you's based on your posts, not on what you're like off the boards.


Cop out...imo your views on me are based on prejudice and I ask who you are because it matters to me in the context of another character assasination that is underway. I actually rate you and enjoy your posts and deep down I dont think your a twat but please perhaps see my point of view when it appears people are lining up to slaughter me. I had/have a decent legacy in the movement..sure made some mistakes but dont judge me on the basis of the twatty things some ex RA comrades say.


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## Pickman's model (Sep 21, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Cop out...imo your views on me are based on prejudice and I ask who you are because it matters to me in the context of another character assasination that is underway. I actually rate you and enjoy your posts and deep down I dont think your a twat but please perhaps see my point of view when it appears people are lining up to slaughter me. I had/have a decent legacy in the movement..sure made some mistakes but dont judge me on the basis of the twatty things some ex RA comrades say.


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## chilango (Sep 21, 2012)

chilango said:


> Bignose. You don't help yourself with posts like this.



...or this.



bignose1 said:


> Sure none of this is truly inspiring stuff but there is a shitstorm brewing with these twats and I know what they are trying to do...they did it with Dave. It wont work..they are washed up and reading what they say....in particular Joe Reilly....(a complex guy my arse)...He is a particularly nasty unpleasant bully whose recent 'take' on the anti fascist/racism picture is shameful. Not because of his personal poisonous attack dog ways but because of his utterly indefensible pampering to racist ideas.



Seriously?

I'll say this again in the no doubt vain hope that you'll wind it in.

People who were around at the time have already long made their minds up regarding this affair. 

Those that weren't are not going to look upon you sympathetically if you're chucking abuse around and "yelling" at people to post up their names and track records. 

In fact, if it wasn't for that fact that your backstory is largely in the open here you'd come across as well dodgy and best avoided if judged solely on some of your posts on this thread.

Ironically it is somewhat fortunate that Joe et al's attacks on you do at least give you a degree of credibility, albeit a tainted one.

...and yes, I know this spat isn't one sided and that Joe, LD etc are posting in it too. But I'll say this. You come across a lot worse than they do if judging solely from the tone of your posts. Just a tuppence of an observation, feel free to ignore it.


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## Red Storm (Sep 23, 2012)

Front cover of _BtF _has been turned into a poster


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## JimW (Sep 23, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> Front cover of _BtF _has been turned into a poster


Does this mean that twat of a photographer is phoning his lawyers?


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## Red Storm (Sep 23, 2012)

JimW said:


> Does this mean that twat of a photographer is phoning his lawyers?


 
I was thinking that haha


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## bignose1 (Sep 23, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> I was thinking that haha


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## bignose1 (Sep 23, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Im going to ring him now!!


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## malatesta32 (Sep 25, 2012)

DaveCinzano said:


> Who'd buy a book by someone called Hen Broon?


 
aye, i would as long as its not hen's guide to gettin' the girls!


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## Citizen66 (Sep 27, 2012)

Your pseudonym should be Boab Crivvens.


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## krink (Sep 27, 2012)

Ben Button - on book lists it'd be Button, Ben. BRAW!


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## malatesta32 (Sep 27, 2012)

BRAW INDEED!


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## Red About Town (Sep 30, 2012)

*


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## malatesta32 (Oct 1, 2012)

inigo montoya is AFA in Eire on here mate! contact him.


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## framed (Oct 2, 2012)

Below is the review of *Beating The Fascists* that appears in the latest issue of AFA Ireland's magazine _No Quarter_.

*Sean Birchall, Beating the Fascists: the Untold Story of Anti-Fascist Action *

*(Freedom Press). £15.*

This is an important book, telling for the first time the story of militant anti-fascism in Britain since the 1970s. In recounting the origins and activities of Anti-Fascist Action it offers an alternative to the standard liberal account of racism and anti-racism. It is well written, punchy (pun intended), exciting and often very funny. Beginning in the 1970s it recounts the efforts of anti-fascists to counter the National Front, then on the verge of an electoral breakthrough, describes how they responded to the emergence of groups like the British Movement in the early 1980s, and then the fight against the British National Party into the 1990s.

Readers of _No Quarter_ will not be surprised that this is a book that concentrates on the physical-force tradition of anti-fascism. In often bone-crunching detail clashes with the NF on the streets of London and Manchester in the 1970s are brought to life. The campaigns against Nazi infiltration of the punk scene in the late 70s, the bloody defeats inflicted on Blood and Honour when it tried go public in London in 1989 and 1992 and less-well known numerous encounters are detailed. In providing the genuine story of the original Anti-Nazi League of the 1970s, in which many of the founders of AFA first became active, it provides the perfect antidote to the sanitized version of that era promoted by the Socialist Workers Party. Activists like Mickey Fenn and Mick O’Farrell are given their place in left-wing history for the first time. How the ‘Squads’ were organized in order to back up the activities, first of the SWP, and then the broad-based ANL is explained. Particular attention is paid to the fight to maintain a left-wing presence in areas like Islington, targeted by the NF for expansion, and the violent struggle needed to stop fascists controlling the streets. How the SWP moved to disavow these militants once it no longer felt it had any use for them, by expulsion and slander, is a salutary lesson in the practice of many left-wing groups.

In the early 1980s then, the militants, some of whom founded the group Red Action, were faced with a left that had walked away from the fight, while the NF, the BM and the newly formed BNP were trying to build on disaffected white youth from the football terraces and through conflict on the streets. Realizing they needed a broader forum to back up their strategy of physical confrontation, Red Action provided the impetus for the founding of AFA in 1985. Allied with anarchists and independent activists, AFA was established on a national footing. Campaigns against the NF’s Remembrance Sunday marches and Blood and Honour followed. There were regular clashes as fascists and loyalists targeted Irish events, and attempted to disrupt gigs by the Pogues and the Angelic Upstarts. Through systematic intelligence gathering and preparation, AFA was able to inflict many setbacks on the fascists. Younger Nazis, told that their opponents were all middle-class academics, were often put off far-right activity altogether after coming up against the reality of AFA. To do this required serious preparation and planning, an element of anti-fascist activity too often ignored. It also required activists who were prepared to risk injury and jail, for which they received little credit from the rest of the left.

However while force was a key element in AFA’s politics, it was recognition of class as a key factor in the struggle against fascism that marked it out. Unlike many on the left, AFA saw the struggle to win support among white working class people as vital, and were among the first to realize that ‘liberal’ anti-fascism was not only ineffective but sometimes counter-productive. By the late 1980s the BNP had begun to target London’s East End for electoral growth. AFA responded with public meetings, music events, community festivals and of course, confrontation. The left took notice and launched their own anti-fascist organizations, attracted by the prospect of new recruits. However they ignored the lessons of AFA’s activities and in the early 1990s the new fascist street-fighters of Combat 18 were handed easy victories on ill-prepared and ill-advised anti-racists.

By the mid 1990s, AFA, in a document entitled ‘Filling the Vacuum’ had begun to grapple with the fact that key figures within the BNP were urging their organization to move away from street politics and concentrate on building community support. Despite growing signs that this strategy was bearing fruit the wider left continued to claim that the BNP were finished. In fact during the last decade the BNP have become the most successful fascist party in British history, with two members in the European Parliament and dozens of local councillors. (In contrast the National Front in its heyday never had a single elected councillor.) It is to AFA’s credit that it predicted this and tried to establish a strategy to counter it.

AFA was regularly denounced by liberals, ignored by the left, harassed by the state and obviously hated by the fascists. This encouraged a siege-mentality, which was well expressed in Red Action’s adoption of the old Millwall slogan ‘No one likes us, we don’t care.’ The only problem with this is that sometimes people may not like you for _good_ reasons. One of the problems with the book is that those who disagree with AFA are usually derided for cowardice, or being engaged in some nefarious activity. But it cannot be coincidental that so many activists eventually found Red Action, in particular, hard to work with. Another strange trend throughout the book is the praise lavished on gangland figures who sometimes lent AFA a hand. Given the reality of the relationship between criminals and the working class communities they prey on, it grates that some of these characters are singled out for praise.

There is also a vindictive element to the account of how a former Red Action and AFA activist, Dave Hann, eventually severed his links with the organization. Hann was a central figure in anti-Fascism in Manchester in the early 1990s but is portrayed as a fairly marginal, if not naïve character, in the book. As the BNP tried to establish themselves in the mill towns of Lancashire, AFA’s Northern Network, with Hann prominent, moved to combat them. In one incident in Rochdale, mentioned in the book, a large group of fascists came upon a group of AFA activists. Many of those present were new to anti-fascist politics and as the BNP charged, their ranks wavered. However ‘two leading RA people stepped forward and broke bottles off the wall (and) instantly people rallied’: the fascists were put to flight. Hann was one of the ‘two leading RA people’ but is not named, as this would surely position him as a more important activist than previously suggested. Similarly he is written out entirely of the account of the 1995 Bloody Sunday march in Manchester, in which he was again prominent. In December 1991 he was sent to help out AFA in Glasgow during one of their first major confrontations, also recounted in the book, but again his presence there is not mentioned. Much of the Northern Network’s activities were described in _No Retreat_, written by Hann and Steve Tilzey published in 2004. It seems Hann’s contribution has to be downplayed in order that his eventual departure from AFA appears as the result of purely personal failings. (That’s Hann at Hyde Park in 1989 putting the boot into a bonehead on page 158 of _Beating the Fascists_ by the way.)

Unfortunately this colours what otherwise is an important study of militant anti-fascism.


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## framed (Oct 2, 2012)

I'll leave the scurrilous points made in the penultimate paragraph to others, but there's a couple of points I'd like to make with regard to the final paragraph of the above review.

The first is in relation to the criticism and inference that Dave Hann's name was deliberately omitted in BTF accounts of actions where he played a part. It is an absurd point imho, because the book goes to some length to avoid naming any of those who were involved in illegal and violent actions. I wish Dave had afforded the same level of anonymity to those like myself who were mentioned by name in No Retreat. 

The specific criticism about him being omitted from dispatches regarding the AFA-organised humiliation of the BNP at the December 1991 Scottish Rally in Glasgow is particularly petty, because no-one is named in the account of that particular action. Neither was Dave 'sent' to Glasgow to help us out. He came up from Manchester with G, a Red Action member originally from Glasgow, who still made regular trips back home to visit the family and go to the football. I met Dave through G and always got on well with him. Whenever he did come up to Glasgow for an AFA activity it was purely voluntary, there was no 'call out' for him or anyone else to attend, but his and G's input as very capable street operators was invaluable and much appreciated. 

I could gripe back about No Retreat's portrayal of the day in question where my own role was relegated to "handing out panel beaters hammers" when I was in fact the main organiser of the whole weekend's events, which also included a very successful AFA benefit gig and which was preceded by a mobilisation against the fash off the annual St Andrew's Day anti-racist march. That was on the Saturday and it was last minute info that came via Liverpool AFA which confirmed that the BNP Rally would definitely go ahead on the Sunday. Big Nose, who was in Glasgow that week on Searchlight business, also played a part on the Sunday by scouring the general area where we suspected the rally would be held and running into Tyndal and his escort leaving a hotel on their way to the venue. After that it was 'game on'. 

BTW, the only reason that my first name is also used in the BTF book is because I felt that, as the cat was already out of the bag and it had already been used without my permission in NR, I might as well be upfront in BTF. 

One other glaring error that I've been meaning to point out for a while in relation to NR is the reference by Dave to disgruntlement over the AFA decision to 'stand down' in the face of the 600 strong fascist/loyalist mobilisation against the Bloody Sunday march in London. NR claims that I had traveled down for it with a group of Celtic Casuals. This is entirely incorrect and if Dave had bothered to check with me I could have put him right on it. In fact, our relations with the Celtic Soccer Crew at that time were minimal with only a couple of their members sporadically appearing at AFA activities prior to 1993. It was in fact after a founding member of the CSC joined AFA and Red Action in London that relations between Glasgow AFA and the Celtic Casuals were further developed. 

ON the Bloody Sunday mobilisation mentioned in NR there were only 3 of us from Glasgow who went down for it. The other two younger lads with me were RANGERS fans, indeed they were members of the Territorial Army and two of the most handy streetfighters we ever had in Glasgow AFA. The myth that Glasgow AFA was _'Republican/Celtic/Catholic only'_ was started by Militant for their own politically sectarian reasons and was later repeated by Searchlight. It is a lie.


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## articul8 (Oct 3, 2012)

Would Rangers fans have been welcome in Glasgow AFA?


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## butchersapron (Oct 3, 2012)

Did you actually read that last paragraph?


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## articul8 (Oct 3, 2012)

Oh, missed that bit


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## DaveCinzano (Oct 3, 2012)




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## articul8 (Oct 3, 2012)

indeed


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## bignose1 (Oct 3, 2012)




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## framed (Oct 3, 2012)

On the Bloody Sunday mobilisation mentioned in NR there were only 3 of us from Glasgow who went down for it.​The other two younger lads with me were RANGERS fans, indeed they were members of the *Territorial Army *and two of the most handy streetfighters we ever had in Glasgow AFA. The myth that Glasgow AFA was_'Republican/Celtic/Catholic only'_ was started by Militant for their own politically sectarian reasons and was later repeated by Searchlight. It is a lie.​​There, I've put that paragraph in big letters just in case you miss it again articul8. There was never a problem with anyone who was anti-fascist and agreed with the basic tenets of AFA _'to confront fascism physically and ideologically'_.​​Those two lads that were Rangers fans and TA members weren't just your regular TA either, they were members of the Parachute Regiment TA Unit in Glasgow. If we had been true to the stereotype attributed to us by our malicious left-wing opponents we would surely never have had any truck with members of a TA unit of the most hated regiment of the British Army in Ireland? We had fans of Celtic, Rangers, Partick Thistle and other clubs in Glasgow AFA. The fella that succeeded me as organiser of Glasgow AFA was a Falkirk FC supporter.​​This lie that Glasgow AFA was hostile to Rangers supporters in general was coined by members of Militant for purely sectarian reasons. Militant used the tar of Glasgow AFA being full of 'republican sectarians' as a divisive smear. Their application of the smear was relentless because in their world of 'party building' they viewed AFA and Red Action as more radical organisations with the potential of recruiting from a working class base that they regarded as exclusively their own. The point that they missed completely is that we were never interested in 'party building' and would have worked with anyone else on the left on the principled basis of 'confronting fascism ideologically and physically'.​​That the smear was real and widespread became apparent when Frances Curran _(pre her Damascian conversion to Scottish separatism and return to Scotland to become an MSP)_ arranged a meeting with leading members of London AFA to discuss possible co-operation between Militant's 'away team' and the AFA stewards group in London. During that discussion she went off on a tangent about Glasgow AFA being run by a known Irish republican (i.e. ME) and how they _'worked both sides of the divide in the city'_ and therefore could not be associated with supporters of Irish republicanism. There were 3 London AFA members in attendance; one of them was Irish, another was second generation and the third was Volunteer Patrick Hayes of the Provisional IRA (in a personal capacity of course)... ​​Militant knew me well, I was an ex-member, and their bitterness against those who have turned against them politically is legendary. This anti-republican stuff started during the Anti-Poll Tax Campaign because myself and others were involved in local activist groups that were democratically run and not dominated by members of Militant. We also produced a Scottish anti-poll tax newsletter called Refuse & Resist which was independent and involved a range of individuals and groups.​​It was during the course of the Anti-Poll Tax struggle (in 1989 I think) that myself and G (before he relocated to Manchester) were physically confronted by two Militant full-timers as we left a Glasgow bar. One of these was a former Sargent in the British Army who continually referred to me as a "Chucky Bastard". The end result was that the two Militant lads were hospitalised, the ex-soldier requiring extensive emergency dental surgery. After their attempts to physically bully us backfired they resorted to the whispering campaign about us being 'sectarian bigots' based purely on the fact that some of us were Celtic supporters and advocates of the republican cause... this became their M.O. which continued on beyond the anti-poll tax campaign and into the anti-fascist movement.​​My family background is mixed, Catholic dad, Protestant Mum. I was brought up in a predominantly Protestant area with a very strong loyalist element. Half my family are Rangers supporters, so I never had any interest in the politics of religious sectarianism. My support for Irish republicanism was political not tribal. Some of the tip-offs that we received about imminent loyalist and fascist attacks on us during the anti-poll tax campaign and AFA's period of activity came directly from the connections with loyalism that some of our families had. On one occasion during the Anti-Poll Tax Campaign, while leafleting in Duke Street with a very soft group that included women and children, one of my cousins left a notorious loyalist pub to come and warn us that we were going to be attacked by a group of casuals and loyalists and to 'get off the street asap'. We took the advice. We received tip-offs and information like this throughout the AFA period too, these informal connections were invaluable. The finger pointing by Militant may have been 'political sport' for them and a way of poisoning the minds of some of their own potential recruits, but the implications on the street for us were potentially life-threatening.​​The point remains though that Glasgow AFA was open to all creeds and none, to all football supporters and to those who despise the game. Indeed it was important for us to have input from Rangers fans, because this was the sea in which the fascists swam. They had paper sales at Ibrox going back to the early 1970's.​​I remember arguing with a Militant member who criticised us for _'only working one side of the divide'_ on the basis that Celtic supporting Red Action members had set up the TAL Fanzine. He argued that this would alienate Rangers fans (???) and 'sectarianise' anti-fascism. My retort was, "Why don't you do the same at Rangers and we'll work together on a principled anti-fascist basis?" AFA had a few Rangers supporters in our ranks, but we didn't have the strength at Rangers to do anything other than monitor their paper sales. Militant, on the other hand, continually claimed to 'work both sides' and their organisation did have a fair amount of supporters of the Ibrox club in their ranks, yet they never sold papers at Ibrox, nor did they leaflet the supporters there. I think the later development of the SSP might have leafleted Ibrox a couple of times during election campaigns, but nothing that they ever did among Rangers supporters challenged the loyalist hegemony at the club. It was the police and Rangers FC themselves who eventually moved the fascist papers sellers on and by then it was a cosmetic exercise. The fash simply moved from standing outside of the ground to doing pub sales around the ground.​


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## articul8 (Oct 3, 2012)

Was going to "like" the post above - but even though they sounded like they had it coming to an extent, I'm not going to "like" the account of battering "the two Militant lads".


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## framed (Oct 3, 2012)

It was they who confronted us and came off worse for their efforts. I was grabbed by the throat by the ex-soldier before I struck back. If someone is grabbing you by the throat and trying to stick the head on you, do you politely ask them to _"Please stop doing that comrade"_ or do you get stuck into them?

Militant in Glasgow were bullies, previous to this incident some of their members led by Sheridan's former sidekick and 'Chief Bully' George McNeilage had threatened to beat up anarchists during a debate about the Trafalgar Square Riot at a Strathclyde APT Federation meeting. Some of those who went on to form AFA and Red Action in the city were there from our local APTU's and made it clear that night that if there was any fighting to be done we'd be on the anarchists' side. They thought that their superior numbers also made them physically superior and they were not averse to physical intimidation of others on the left. We simply replied in kind. They never tried to physically bully us again after those two wankers got their come uppance. Standing up to bullies, left or right, works for me.

I was putting the lies about Glasgow AFA being hostile to Rangers supporters in context. The lie originated from that organisation and the background is important imho.


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## Red Storm (Oct 3, 2012)

Interesting stuff Framed.


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## articul8 (Oct 3, 2012)

framed said:


> It was they who confronted us and came off worse for their efforts. I was grabbed by the throat by the ex-soldier before I struck back. If someone is grabbing you by the throat and trying to stick the head on you, do you politely ask them to _"Please stop doing that comrade"_ or do you get stuck into them?


 
Ah well, "physically confronted" didn't quite get that across.  If you're properly getting attacked that's different altogether.


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## framed (Oct 3, 2012)

Incidentally, their political leader Alan McCombes actually phoned me the following day asking for a rematch with him and others that night and telling me that my days as a political activist were over and to _"Get out of Glasgow or else..."  _

Yeah, they are poor wee souls these Militant chaps.


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## articul8 (Oct 3, 2012)

Jesus, I think I could have Alan McCombes, and I'm no street-fighter


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## framed (Oct 3, 2012)

That's what they thought about me too obviously. I am knee-high to a grasshopper, so picking on 'the wee man' is pretty low, but often counter-productive in a place like Glasgow where the 'Short Arse Syndrome' prevails. 

I knew Alan pretty well from the past. He was wiry in stature but he actually was no physical pushover in his younger days. It was pure ego that got the better of him to make that stupid phone call challenge. I think I was still laughing as he hung up.


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## love detective (Oct 3, 2012)

Another review hot of the press from Mark Hayes in the latest Journal of the Socialist History Society (framed did you see that mail today about dublin?)

*Sean Birchall, Beating the Fascists: The Untold Story of Anti-Fascist Action (London: Freedom Press, 2010), 416pp., ISBN 9781904491125, £15.00, pbk.*

_"...they were hit with everything, bars, hammers, baseball bats. Yes it was savage enough I suppose but not gratuitous. We were taking the opportunity to send them a message ..."(p.215)_

Beating the Fascists deals with Anti-Fascist Action (AFA), an organisation that engaged in what was, in effect, a quasi-paramilitary conflict with a variety of fascist organisations, principally the BNP and Combat 18, who were intent on pursuing a policy of insurrection by ‘controlling the streets’. This semi-clandestine campaign continued up until 1994 when Nick Griffin ostentatiously declared that his party were to ‘de-commission the boot’ in order to end what John Tyndall had described as ‘a state of war’. AFA had,literally, driven the fascists off the streets and forced them into a comprehensive strategic re-evaluation, and this text provides key anti-fascist activists with a platform to tell their own story in their own words.

AFA was created on 28 July 1985 at Conway Hall in London (although formally launched in Liverpool in the following year) and set out to be a totally non-sectarian and democratic organisation with its only objective being to oppose fascism both physically and ideologically. AFA in fact consisted of people belonging to a range of political groups, including Red Action (communist), the Direct Action Movement (anarcho-syndicalist), Class War (anarchist), Workers’ Power (Trotskyist), and Communist Action Group (Stalinist)—as the book says, in AFA hunt saboteurs rubbed shoulders with members of the Territorial Army and Irish Republicans! AFA was, indeed, an odd amalgamation but according to the book, ‘one of the reasons AFA was so effective was that it could apparently accommodate recruits from all ideologies and none’ (p.341). Yet the objective of AFA’s principal activists is clearly articulated throughout - physical resistance as a pre-requisite for effective anti-fascism, to clear the fascists out of working-class areas and destroy all semblance of a fascist presence in public spaces.

By 1990 AFA was clearly identified as the militant wing of the anti-fascist movement with a dedicated street-fighting cadre and stewards group. At its peak in the early 90s AFA had four regions and 36 branches with particular areas of strength in London, Manchester, Birmingham and Glasgow. Yet as the book is at pains to point out, street confrontation was only a part of what AFA set out to do. It was an important tactic (not a principle) and only part of a multi-faceted approach to anti-fascist practice. The magazine Fighting Talk was set up in 1991, and an attempt was made to mobilise people via various cultural and leisure activities such as Cable St Beat and Unity Carnivals. Meanwhile football clubs were the focus of considerable AFA activity with teams like Glasgow Celtic, Manchester United and Aston Villa having a visible AFA contingent, determined to halt the colonisation of the game by the extreme right. AFA even produced a BBC Open Space video entitled Fighting Talk. So Beating the Fascists looks, therefore, in some detail at the ‘roots’ of AFA in the Anti-Nazi League of the late 1970s, the split from the SWP in 1981, the formation of Red Action, the launch of AFA in 1985, and the numerous internal feuds and splits that ensued. It is also replete with detailed and graphic descriptions of extremely violent confrontations with fascists, which will doubtless horrify those anxious to dismiss AFA as the mirror image of the right-wing bullies they were claiming to oppose.

There is no doubt that Beating the Fascists is a controversial book, a fact acknowledged by the author(s) as well as the publishers, Freedom Press,
who have described it as ‘the most controversial book of the decade’. Its credentials as a source of intense, even acrimonious, debate are reflected in the fact that some people did not actually want the text to see the light of day at all, and the eventual publication has precipitated vociferous ‘discussion’ in various circles, even causing some former comrades to condemn the book in recriminatory tones. It is a book that, seemingly, not only divides opinion but generates deeply felt and contradictory emotions, offending not just right wing reactionaries but a variety of liberals, anarchists, Trotskyists and others. This is quite an accomplishment for a text produced by a small independent publisher, concerning what is, on the face of it, a relatively esoteric element of left-wing political practice in the 1980s and 90s. The source of the consternation and condemnation is not difficult to discern.

The book is in fact quite explicit from the outset in stating its purpose - it tells the story of AFA, not only from a rank-and-file activists’ perspective, but also more specifically from the point of view of those activists that coalesced around the group Red Action (described, incidentally, by BNP HQ as ‘the worst of the lot, total scum’). Given that AFA was always a relatively pragmatic amalgamation of various political groupings, there have been rumblings of resentment, particularly from anarchists, who claim that the text is focused too narrowly on those individuals who, although playing a key role in certain cities, did not constitute by any means the entirety of the organisation. Yet such criticism is odd given the fact that those who composed the text have not claimed any definitive or comprehensive purpose. Clearly the book does focus somewhat on those involved in Red Action, who acquired a fearsome reputation for ruthlessness when engaging their political enemies (it is worth remembering that Combat 18 were set up in response to the success of RA), but in many ways the driving force behind AFA was indeed Red Action. Formed in 1982, many of its members having been expelled from the SWP for the venal sin of ‘squadismo’, Red Action explicitly rejected the liberal-left anti-racist agenda, and criticised the state funded agencies of the multi-culturalist establishment. As the author points out, ‘while race awareness took the plaudits, it was a strikingly illiberal militant anti-fascism that did all the heavy lifting’ (p.18). Little wonder, then, that the book has caused controversy.

What the text does provide is a fascinating glimpse of the struggle that took place between AFA and the unreconstructed Nazis on the extreme right, and the book is unquestionably authoritative in the sense of emanating from those who were actually engaged in the struggle - but it is much more than that. The strangely dichotomous narrative contains not simply a sometimes chilling account of collective confrontation, but also a concise,calculating analysis of why such methods were deployed, and interestingly, a realistic acknowledgement of the limitations of AFA’s strategy - violence of the first resort can never be anything but an artificial and temporary remedy. This is not simply hooligan-porn, and anybody aiming simply to satisfy an urge to experience, vicariously, the thrill of visceral violence, is likely to be somewhat disappointed. Fighting the Fascists has taken upon itself the more ambitious objective of contextualising and examining the strategy of AFA, as well as documenting, in remorseless detail, the various dust-ups that ensued.

Beating the Fascists is, in effect, both an analysis and a micro-historiography of popular resistance against fascism. It documents the fight against the purveyors of an evil political creed which takes place in the very communities where that grotesque ideology is incubated. It is, more than anything, the story of ordinary people engaged in struggle. The words of Phil Piratin come to mind who, commenting on people remembering their participation in the ‘Battle of Cable Street’ said, ‘the people were changed. Their heads seemed to be held higher, and their shoulders were squarer—and the stories they told! Each one of them was a ‘hero’—many of them were’ (P. Piratin, Our Flag Stays Red, 1948, p.25). As Eric Hobsbawm has pointed out, sometimes it is a good thing to remind ourselves of what the enemy fears most—ordinary working people that are assertive in their own collective working-class identity, self-confident, politically astute and prepared to resist. Read the book and remind yourself.

Dr Mark Hayes, University of Southampton


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## Fedayn (Oct 3, 2012)

articul8 said:


> Jesus, I think I could have Alan McCombes, and I'm no street-fighter


 
I doubt that very much.


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## articul8 (Oct 3, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> I doubt that very much.


  You think I am a streetfighter?


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## Fedayn (Oct 3, 2012)

articul8 said:


> You think I am a streetfighter?


 
No, I doubt you'd best McCombes on the street.


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## framed (Oct 3, 2012)

Oh stop it! FFS.

My dad's smaller than your dad but ten times more aggressive.


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## malatesta32 (Oct 3, 2012)

has anyone got any links to, or stuff about, the away team?


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## Fedayn (Oct 3, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> has anyone got any links to, or stuff about, the away team?


 
I doubt there's much written much, there's the occasional mention on tv programmes but it wasn't around long enough to have the kind of impact that would merit major writings.


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## redhun (Oct 4, 2012)

*Regarding the situation in Glasgow AFA as to whether Rangers fans were welcome in the ranks, i'm a fan of the Ibrox club and was active in Glasgow AFA from around 92/93 up until about 99 i'm sure, and also RA for at least 3 years if my memory serves me correctly.On no occasion did i receive any threats/inTIMidation (sorry couldnae resist) or indifference because of my football leanings. Of course, after an 'activity' there was harmless banter in the pub, defo not pc but NOT sectarian or nasty in any way!! Like Framed said, it was Scottish Militant who peddled the lie about Red Action and AFA being in some way 'anti-Rangers' , i even challenged a certain 'Tanned Wannabe Cuban' who was at a meeting in a town near me about his views that sectarian butchers like Billy Hutchinson were in some way 'socialists' due to some connection with Scots lefties, he accused ME of being 'anti protestant', 'pro Celtic ' and 'Anti-Rangers' which amused me, i corrected Suntan Man by letting him know i was a current Rangers season ticket holder AND how could he even make some connection with anti protestantism and republicanism anyway?? His face turned white (his real colour lol) and he kept eyeballing me during the rest of the meeting, he had been made to look a fool in front of his lefty followers. Funnily enough, an hour later in the pub, a couple of bearded (honestly) lefties did approach me and said well done on silencing the Pollok Polemican hahaha!!!! He was also Red on the outside Orange in the inside !!! (D Findlay- Sport in Question???)*


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## Red Storm (Oct 4, 2012)

redhun said:


> .


 
Nice name


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## framed (Oct 4, 2012)

You don't get many of those to the pound.


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## malatesta32 (Oct 4, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> I doubt there's much written much, there's the occasional mention on tv programmes but it wasn't around long enough to have the kind of impact that would merit major writings.


cheers feds! werent they something to do with that BNP welling doco?


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## chilango (Oct 4, 2012)

I'm pretty sure there's been some discussion on the away team on here before. Might be worth a quick search...


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## malatesta32 (Oct 4, 2012)

thanks! shall have a squizz!


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## Fedayn (Oct 4, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> cheers feds! werent they something to do with that BNP welling doco?


 
Yes. There was a short interview which was part of that doco, it was referring to the time in September 1983 when the BNP got done at their Brick Lane paper sale, it was the Sunday after Beackon got elected.

There was an article in a black newspaper, can't rememebr if it was The Voice, that criticised the AT for singing Rule Britannia etc etc and marching into the BNP-the singing made plod let them into the BNP paper sale-which was their first mistake.


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## malatesta32 (Oct 4, 2012)

yeah i remember that doco now. as for the criticism about the singing AFs, that is one of the best 'cunning plans' AF story going! i feel their ire was sparked less by the singing and more by the militancy that ensued!!! unless you were really crap singers of course.


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## bignose1 (Oct 4, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> yeah i remember that doco now. as for the criticism about the singing AFs, that is one of the best 'cunning plans' AF story going! i feel their ire was sparked less by the singing and more by the militancy that ensued!!! unless you were really crap singers of course.


More like Rule Batteringya....When I went up to Scotland on an NUS speaking tour in the late 80's ( I did 2 think the other one was 91'ish)I stayed with TS and some of the Millies who I liked and we were looked after at all the venues. Met Jim Murphy and he seemed sound. I didnt get the impression of any great hostility between AFA/Millies but I do take Wee S's account as an honest depiction when he refers to the Glasgow AFA make up. I travelled up and down quite a bit around that time I was seeing a lass who was knocking around with Militant and who had some family members and friends who were Rangers supporters but fiercely anti-fash. I went to quite a few Celtic games but on a couple of occasions went to some Rangers games and met some of these lads. Generally not my cup of tea but didnt seem at all as bad as some I know...there usually those that live in England!! I was also friendly with a guy called Michael S who I met through another relative from Milngavie....he was killed recently following a fight outside a bar. His pals were spot on and although they wernt as you say 'political' they hated the fash. A mixed bunch..yeah some criminal shenaniganss..no doubt...but I never took them as bigots. match day though can bring the worse out of you as Im only too aware ( though never ever sang Hillsboro songs)...Seeing a City work mate arms wide doing the Munich at the game...he was so embarrassed that he said he'd wear a united scarf all day as pennance.!!


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## framed (Oct 4, 2012)

One point on that mate is that Militant were the masters of telling people what they wanted to hear. They wanted to cultivate a relationship with Searchlight at that time and bent over backwards to accommodate you. Tommy could charm the pants off anyone, male or female  but he was an actor playing a part. You only have to read Alan McCombes' recent book on him to understand the amount of manipulation that went on. Alan has had a bit of a Damascian conversion himself, considering the behind the scenes role that he played in all of it. If Tommy was the monster, Alan was the Dr Frankenstein who created him.

Behind that charm offensive was a cynical ploy to outmanoeuvre their rivals on the left.

I remember them presenting that wee gang of urchins from Pollock at various events and thought, 'Fuck me, you lads don't know what they're getting you into..." On mobilisations those kids were told not to talk to us, it was insane. One of our lads was talking to one of the Pollock Bushwacker gang at some lefty demo and McNeilage walked over and without a word and not knowing what the conversation was about, he aggressively pulled the kid away. They feared that their rawest working class members might actually find that they had more in common with us than they had been led to believe, so the answer was to tell them horror stories about us all being 'sectarian bigots' and 'IRA'. And if that didn't work there was always Big Bully George to pull them back into line.

You got the charm offensive, but those of us on the ground in Glasgow saw the real face of an organisation that were once described by another Red Action wag as being _"the sectarian's sectarians"_.

Here's one example and I hope Fed doesn't mind me using it. When Fed first came to Glasgow he was obviously given the Militant line on me as a 'traitor' to their organisation, because I had once been a member and had now taken a different political path. Militant could not tolerate ex-members who stayed politically active. If you resigned or left the organisation you were generally encouraged to remain inactive. Those who didn't lay down and die and who took an opposing view to theirs were vilified and their characters assassinated in the good old Stalinist tradition. Fed had come up from England and had a different approach, he became friendly with a couple of our members on the Southside. Unfortunately he also repeated stuff about me that was pure lies and straight out of the mouths of people like McCombes and Sheridan. He wasn't to know, he took the leadership of Militant in Glasgow at face value and considered them to be politically honest. As a result of that our lads didn't develop a political relationship with someone that in hindsight we should have worked with and who would have been an asset to any anti-fascist organisation.

It wasn't until years later in 1997 at the General Election count that me and Fed actually had a face-to-face conversation. To their credit (and as a result of them being under pressure from the fash inside the count) McCombes and other Millies organised to get AFA into the count. As we were milling around considering our options, Fed came over to me and said, "S, you probably hate me but I'm up for it and if youse are going to get into them there's some of us who'll go for it with you..."

My reply, as I recall it, was, "Mate, I don't know you well enough to hate you and I don't give a fcuk about all that shite, let's get into them..." And we did! 

But that one simple event brought home to me how many more we could have worked with, should have worked with, but were thwarted from doing so by the sectarian poison of their political leaders. I am also not saying that we were always right and never at fault for any of the bad feeling between organisations, but in my experience when people actually came together and fought the fascists as one the artificial political barriers that existed between us were almost always lifted.

It was that spontaneous class solidarity in the face of the enemy that seemed to frighten the political leadership of organisations like the SWP and MIlitant.


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## bignose1 (Oct 4, 2012)

When a few of us went to a pre-season game a few years ago against Celtic we got lobbed out 10 mins before half time...for being far too pissed. We ended up in a Rangers bar not far from Celtic Park to wait out the game and meet our lift( we had to get straight off as one of the lads we were with was flying out to his unit next day ) We were a bit noisy and the barman reluctantly served us. Got the feeling we were being tee'd up as a few calls were being made on mobiles. Dont like this I whispered to my pals. Your right one said Ive just been speaking to one of the guys in the toilet and he thinks your Tony O'Neill and he's getting a few pals together. Oh f**k I said...(it wasnt long after Utd had been up to Ibrox mob handed and given a good account). But it wasnt all Rangers fans who started to arrive but Celtic lads too wanting a pop......Thankfully our lift, a people carrier had arrived as a full can of red bull missed me by inches as I dived through the sliding side door. The others followed in a similar fashion..and thankfully no traffic. I suppose it was an example of the preconceptions of the whole sectarian thing....maybe a crude example and Im sure there are many times this doesnt happen but my pals were gobsmacked !


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## Fedayn (Oct 4, 2012)

framed said:


> One point on that mate is that Militant were the masters of telling people what they wanted to hear. They wanted to cultivate a relationship with Searchlight at that time and bent over backwards to accommodate you. Tommy could charm the pants off anyone, male of female  but he was an actor playing a part. You only have to read Alan McCombes' recent book on him to understand the amount of manipulation that went on. Alan has had a bit of a Damascian conversion himself, considering the behind the scenes role that he played in all of it. If Tommy was the monster, Alan was the Dr Frankenstein who created him.
> 
> Behind that charm offensive was a cynical ploy to outmanoeuvre their rivals on the left.
> 
> ...


 
I was explaining that story to someone the other day, it remains a mistake imho that the division was created. Imho the then Militant had far far bigger issues with the SWP than it ever should/did have with AFA and yet still worked with them, critically it has to be said.

I saw the 2 said chaps at the game on Saturday.


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## Fedayn (Oct 4, 2012)

As an aside the night of the election count we had the spares to get people in, you might remember RS the older FTer at the time? He argued we shouldn't hand out the spares/extras to anyone but SSA/SML members/supporters, he was told, by lots of individual members of SML/SSA of the people who needed in and his argument was pish as there was people prepared and willing to do a job waiting outside and we had the spares to get them in. I'm not saying he amd AMcC had an argument but they had a difference of opinion and RS lost.


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## framed (Oct 4, 2012)

They actually went out of their way to keep good working class militants apart and all based on an incorrect interpretation of 'sectarianism' and a personal hatred of an ex-member who they regarded as a greater 'enemy' than the fash. It stinks.

I amended the conclusion of that post to this, which I think is probably more accurate:

*It was that spontaneous class solidarity in the face of the enemy that seemed to frighten the political leadership of organisations like the SWP and MIlitant.*


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## bignose1 (Oct 4, 2012)

How did I end up like the previous picture. ( small b/w picture by the way)
This was my promo picture when I stood for VP at Manc Poly....


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## framed (Oct 4, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> As an aside the night of the election count we had the spares to get people in, you might remember RS the older FTer at the time? He argued we shouldn't hand out the spares/extras to anyone but SSA/SML members/supporters, he was told, by lots of individual members of SML/SSA of the people who needed in and his argument was pish as there was people prepared and willing to do a job waiting outside and we had the spares to get them in. I'm not saying he amd AMcC had an argument but they had a difference of opinion and RS lost.


 
Don't doubt that for a minute mate. RS was a poisonous bastard who hated me when I was in Militant. Another fucking social worker... I rest my case. 

I remember the other one that night who was red in the face and spitting hate was GmcG, the man who lost his teeth in that previous encounter.


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## bignose1 (Oct 4, 2012)

framed said:


> Don't doubt that for a minute mate. RS was a poisonous bastard who hated me when I was in Militant. Another fucking social worker... I rest my case.
> 
> I remember the other one that night who was red in the face and spitting hate was GmcG, the man who lost his teeth in that previous encounter.


 There used to be a decent millie guy who lived in Castlemilk ( high rise) who I liked but his names gone....He used to get on with some of the GAFA bunch


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## framed (Oct 4, 2012)

Would this be one of the older former leadership guys?  D.C. springs to mind but I thought he was inactive by the early 90's.


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## Fedayn (Oct 4, 2012)

framed said:


> Don't doubt that for a minute mate. RS was a poisonous bastard who hated me when I was in Militant. Another fucking social worker... I rest my case.
> 
> I remember the other one that night who was red in the face and spitting hate was GmcG, the man who lost his teeth in that previous encounter.


 
A few agreed with RS shall we say. The other person in that encounter agreed with AFA lads getting tickets.



bignose1 said:


> There used to be a decent millie guy who lived in Castlemilk ( high rise) who I liked but his names gone....He used to get on with some of the GAFA bunch


 
Possibly JH, a former building worker and a bear of a man, absolute diamond of a man. He lived in the Mitchelhill flats at the back end of Castlemilk.


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## bignose1 (Oct 4, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> A few agreed with RS shall we say. The other person in that encounter agreed with AFA lads getting tickets.
> 
> 
> 
> Possibly JH, a former building worker and a bear of a man, absolute diamond of a man. He lived in the Mitchelhill flats at the back end of Castlemilk.


Poss....he was a big lad and had a warm face( dont mean temperature)....that was a bit deceptive I reckon in times of crisis!!
(sandy hair and a few freckles...quiet spoken)


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## framed (Oct 4, 2012)

Aye, come to think of it, it would have been JH.


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## ayatollah (Oct 4, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> View attachment 23708
> How did I end up like the previous picture. ( small b/w picture by the way)
> This was my promo picture when I stood for VP at Manc Poly....


 
And that was AFTER the heavy duty  nose reduction surgery !


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## malatesta32 (Oct 4, 2012)

were you in auf wiederseihen pet Bignose?


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## DaveCinzano (Oct 4, 2012)

He looks no stranger to either pushing pineapples or grinding coffee.


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## Spanky Longhorn (Oct 4, 2012)




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## Citizen66 (Oct 4, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> View attachment 23708
> How did I end up like the previous picture. ( small b/w picture by the way)
> This was my promo picture when I stood for VP at Manc Poly....


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## cesare (Oct 4, 2012)




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## malatesta32 (Oct 4, 2012)

brave is the man who puts a photo of himself in the 80s. this is me!


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## Citizen66 (Oct 4, 2012)

Of course it is.


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## framed (Oct 5, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> A few agreed with RS shall we say. The other person in that encounter agreed with AFA lads getting tickets.


 
Fed, I knew that D was a reluctant participant in that spat. He was a person that I had political respect for, as was G to be honest. I had worked with both of them, the fast turnaround from comradeship to personal hatred is a pathological trait of the sect, whether it's political or religious. Dissent is verboten.


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## HST (Oct 5, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> Yes. There was a short interview which was part of that doco, it was referring to the time in September 1983 when the BNP got done at their Brick Lane paper sale, it was the Sunday after Beackon got elected.
> 
> There was an article in a black newspaper, can't rememebr if it was The Voice, that criticised the AT for singing Rule Britannia etc etc and marching into the BNP-the singing made plod let them into the BNP paper sale-which was their first mistake.


 
93 mate. Saw it happen. Brilliant.


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## The39thStep (Oct 5, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> View attachment 23704View attachment 23706 When a few of us went to a pre-season game a few years ago against Celtic we got lobbed out 10 mins before half time...for being far too pissed. We ended up in a Rangers bar not far from Celtic Park to wait out the game and meet our lift( we had to get straight off as one of the lads we were with was flying out to his unit next day ) We were a bit noisy and the barman reluctantly served us. Got the feeling we were being tee'd up as a few calls were being made on mobiles. Dont like this I whispered to my pals. Your right one said Ive just been speaking to one of the guys in the toilet and he thinks your Tony O'Neill and he's getting a few pals together. Oh f**k I said...(it wasnt long after Utd had been up to Ibrox mob handed and given a good account). But it wasnt all Rangers fans who started to arrive but Celtic lads too wanting a pop......Thankfully our lift, a people carrier had arrived as a full can of red bull missed me by inches as I dived through the sliding side door. The others followed in a similar fashion..and thankfully no traffic. I suppose it was an example of the preconceptions of the whole sectarian thing....maybe a crude example and Im sure there are many times this doesnt happen but my pals were gobsmacked !


 
I made the understandable error of going into O'Neils local in Manchester wearing a Chelsea shirt straight after we beat United 3-0 and won the league. Nearly got stabbed.


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## articul8 (Oct 5, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> I made the understandable error of going into O'Neils local in Manchester wearing a Chelsea shirt straight after we beat United 3-0 and won the league. Nearly got stabbed.


 
understandable error?  fucking lunacy!


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## bignose1 (Oct 5, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> I made the understandable error of going into O'Neils local in Manchester wearing a Chelsea shirt straight after we beat United 3-0 and won the league. Nearly got stabbed.


 Well 39 I think I know about this.....wrong time wrong place....just like me at that BPP meeting nr Borough Market a couple of years ago.... One reason I dont wear tops. I wear the tiniest pin badge....


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## Fedayn (Oct 5, 2012)

HST said:


> 93 mate. Saw it happen. Brilliant.


 
Aye it was 93, keyboard slip.


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## ayatollah (Oct 5, 2012)

Of course Bignose 1, we real revolutionery hardliners at Manchester University were always contemptous of our comrades' crowd pleasing election strategies at Manchester Poly. FFS many of you actually got ELECTED !

No such bourgeois populism for us at the University. MY Student Union election slogan was "For Uncompromising Militancy ", and MY election poster publicity photo was :



I bet you feel really ashamed now  !


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## bignose1 (Oct 5, 2012)

ayatollah said:


> Of course Bignose 1, we real revolutionery hardliners at Manchester University were always contemptous of our comrades' crowd pleasing election strategies at Manchester Poly. FFS many of you actually got ELECTED !
> 
> No such bourgeois populism for us at the University. MY Student Union election slogan was "For Uncompromising Militancy ", and MY election poster publicity photo was :
> 
> ...


You TWWWWWWAAAATTTTT......Recalling my Manifesto my first promise was ......VOTE TILZEY FOR IMPROVED CRECHE FACILITIES...( just become a dad) the last one was a variation of the Squad Motto......see pics


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## bignose1 (Oct 5, 2012)

Any guesses????


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## ayatollah (Oct 5, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Any guesses????


 
Try me with a HAAAAAAAAAARD question ! EASSSSSSY ONE....Is it for money ?

"VISCOUS... BUT FAIR "


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## DaveCinzano (Oct 5, 2012)

"Scream if you wanna go faster"?


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## bignose1 (Oct 5, 2012)

ayatollah said:


> Try me with a HAAAAAAAAAARD question ! EASSSSSSY ONE....Is it for money ?
> 
> "VISCOUS... BUT FAIR "


 I knew you'd get it you buggah.....Yeah I owe you...spanish doubloons be ok RRRRRRrrrrrr


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## Citizen66 (Oct 5, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Any guesses????



Sparkling drips?


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## bignose1 (Oct 5, 2012)

DaveCinzano said:


> "Scream if you wanna go faster"?


Sort of close chinny.....so lets run a comp for a new motto for an 'new antifash hit squad......
heres my offering ''There is nothing so fatal to character as half finished fascists' DLG


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## bignose1 (Oct 5, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> Sparkling drips?


 WTF ????


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## Citizen66 (Oct 5, 2012)

Catchphrase - say what you see.


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## bignose1 (Oct 5, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> Catchphrase - say what you see.


Not right ...but good...still laugh at Mr Chips apparently wanking..can anyone get a shot of it....bit like on The Chase with that German skier 'Fanny Chmelar'


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## DaveCinzano (Oct 5, 2012)




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## bignose1 (Oct 5, 2012)

DaveCinzano said:


>


 
Ha Ha Never seen that one......


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## DaveCinzano (Oct 5, 2012)

"Is it 'stroking a perseverer'?"


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## Citizen66 (Oct 5, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Ha Ha Never seen that one......



Looks photoshopped... 

Where's mr chips?

I remember the wanking one. It finally confirmed that there was nothing random about the squares being revealed. That gag was planned in advance.


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## The39thStep (Oct 6, 2012)

ayatollah said:


> Of course Bignose 1, we real revolutionery hardliners at Manchester University were always contemptous of our comrades' crowd pleasing election strategies at Manchester Poly. FFS many of you actually got ELECTED !
> 
> No such bourgeois populism for us at the University. MY Student Union election slogan was "For Uncompromising Militancy ", and MY election poster publicity photo was :
> 
> ...


 
Did this provide the base to win the masses towards SOCIALISM?


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## The39thStep (Oct 6, 2012)

articul8 said:


> understandable error? fucking lunacy!


 
Top class nut job


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## ayatollah (Oct 6, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> Did this provide the base to win the masses towards SOCIALISM?


 
Definitely not... student Far Leftie politics eh. Happy days.

Though I was actually being more than a tad exaggeratedly humorous... the IS student group at Manchester University in the early 70's actually played a very significant role in a number of key campaigns .. including the one to prevent the Student's Union from disaffaliating from NUS -- and was very unsectarian in its relations on the Left and with other groups compared to many other Trots. Manchester University was always a strong base for both the Tory students, and the Broad Left career politicians - not leaving much electoral space for revolutionery socialists - unlike Manchester Poly -- where we used to go along up the road and help our comrades occupy the admin building for weeks every year ! The focus of work for IS student members most of this time wasn't really in the university , but out with the geographical branches in broader political work, in the real world.


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## Red Storm (Oct 9, 2012)

I've finished reading the AFA Ireland pamphlet Undertones. It's well worth getting a hold of. It has a great chronological history of the far right in Ireland and a good history of AFA Ireland, told through stories of activity.


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## malatesta32 (Oct 10, 2012)

anyone got info/reliable links on Acklam Hall/ Crisis riot and Hamborough Tavern riot, Southall? have got a few wee contradictions to sort out.


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## malatesta32 (Oct 10, 2012)

from gary hodges,
As skins were led through the escape route, the police actually shouted for assistance to the skins, and both forces formed a barricade between the Asians and the tavern. It was the angry Asian mob that was fighting the police, and it was the skins that stood shoulder-to-shoulder trying to fend them off.


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## Fozzie Bear (Oct 10, 2012)

http://www.urban75.org/music/beggar.html 

http://www.stewarthomesociety.org/cranked/maelstrom.htm

Eye witness accounts of Acklam Hall from U75's own Editor, and Stewart Home.


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## malatesta32 (Oct 10, 2012)

ah cheers fozzy!

amusing BBC accent here.


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## malatesta32 (Oct 10, 2012)

so deffo a RAR gig attacked by BM/NF then?


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## butchersapron (Oct 10, 2012)

Have a look in the on-line archive of the various asian youth movements from the murder of Gurdip Singh Chaggar in '76 onwards. Worth a read either way.


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## malatesta32 (Oct 10, 2012)

brilliant chaps! not sure i wd rely on either class wars analysis of w. london skins or stewart home's account!!!


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## Fozzie Bear (Oct 10, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Have a look in the on-line archive of the various asian youth movements from the murder of Gurdip Singh Chaggar in '76 onwards. Worth a read either way.


 
This is the angle missing from a lot of the online stuff about the Hamborough Tavern, which is mainly accounts of people who were in the bands, or were/are fans of the bands.


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## malatesta32 (Oct 10, 2012)

brilliant. gonna take a bit of crafty writing as there are some contradictions in some of these.


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## malatesta32 (Oct 10, 2012)

great quote at 2.00.
"the band claim they are not racist
gary hodges: pakis just got, went a bit mad, went over the top.'


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## malatesta32 (Oct 10, 2012)

and the worst thing about oi! wasnt the politics, it was cak!


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## audiotech (Oct 11, 2012)

Having a 35 year reunion this Friday with a few of us involved in RAR back then. Penetration and the Expelairs are playing. Looking forward to it.



The idiot throwing beer in this video gets lamped by the way.


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## malatesta32 (Oct 11, 2012)

*Major Sean Birchall - 33*​Army: 1st Battalion Welsh Guards. Hostile: Explosion. Killed in an explosion while on patrol​Read more: Major Sean Birchall - 33​


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## malatesta32 (Oct 11, 2012)

does anyone know the dates that the 'we are red action' pamphlet and AFA's heroes and villains were published?


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## Red Storm (Oct 11, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> does anyone know the dates that the 'we are red action' pamphlet and AFA's heroes and villains were published?


 
Heroes or Villains was first published in 1992 and then in 1997, iirc. 

I'm not sure on We Are Red Action but it was early.


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## Red Storm (Oct 11, 2012)

I've done a small review on the AFA Ireland pamphlet _Undertones_. 

Also I've now got a twitter for the Anti-Fascist Archive, it'll just auto tweet when I put a new post on it.


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## Fedayn (Oct 11, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> ah cheers fozzy!
> 
> amusing BBC accent here.




I vaguely know Hoxton Tom, a former guitarist in the 4 Skins, he is no right-winger, his politics are liberal leftish. It was a bizarre night according to a various arracy of people I know who witnessed it.


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## malatesta32 (Oct 12, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> Heroes or Villains was first published in 1992 and then in 1997, iirc.
> 
> I'm not sure on We Are Red Action but it was early.


 
i downloaded the copy off the archive which is a reprint. i reckon the pamphlet is 1982? reprinted again in 1987. i think heroes was 1st done in 1992 cos it stops there. cheers!


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## malatesta32 (Oct 12, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> I vaguely know Hoxton Tom, a former guitarist in the 4 Skins, he is no right-winger, his politics are liberal leftish. It was a bizarre night according to a various arracy of people I know who witnessed it.


 
it seems pretty confused. the manager hitchcock was far right according to bushell. whatever, it was a pretty daft idea given the racist murders and resentments of the large asian community etc. the weirdest quote was skins and plod 'standing together' against the local outrage!


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## Fedayn (Oct 12, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> it seems pretty confused. the manager hitchcock was far right according to bushell. whatever, it was a pretty daft idea given the racist murders and resentments of the large asian community etc. the weirdest quote was skins and plod 'standing together' against the local outrage!


 
Bushell hadn't long left the SWP at that time. There's an oi album with 'Oi for England, England for the workers' on the back sleeve. And yet as we all know the lyrics and leanings of various band members was notably far right. Combat 84, whose lyrics had a decidedly rightist bent, had Chris 'Chubby' Henderson as the singer, right-wing Chelsea Headhunter and all round cock, yet another band member Deptford John argued a kind of class politics, even mentioning on tv the similarities and connections black and white working class kids had.
You also had The Oppressed who did AFA benefits and Infa Riot who were notably left-wing. The Business have done fund raisers for building workers campaigns in the past, even recording 'National Employers Blacklist', but also the mocking 'Suburban Rebels'.
Interestingly Skrewdriver and Co, whilst happy to share sections of the oi audience, never referred to themselves as oi.
Oi bands on the go at present are certainly blurring the lines a lot more, certainly more linked with dodgy types than many bands in the past.


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## malatesta32 (Oct 12, 2012)

also mick o farrell wrote a poem on the back of Oi 4 or summat according to bushell's book Hoolies (i only had the 1st 2). GB also cites RA a couple of times not TOO unfavourably. i dont think original Oi in general was that right wing, but mainly apolotical. the rejects spoke out against the BM  as 'the german movement.' the easiest media connection was 'skins like oi! all skins are nazis, ergo oi is nazis.' which is bollocks on several levels. henderson was a tool and his band were shit, the far right didnt like bushell so their bands distanced themselves from it. and bushell was keen to distance oi from them as he was trying to break it with the record companies. decca did the 1st nicky crane LP but hamborough tavern blew it for him regarding mainstream success. roddy of the oppressed is grand! dunno what oi is like now but it took off a wee bit with the hardcore US punk/skins at one point.


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## malatesta32 (Oct 12, 2012)

and does anyone know if the story about o'farrell's book is true? (feds, note avatar! proper clothes them!)


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## audiotech (Oct 12, 2012)

The Oppressed are still doing the S.H.A.R.P attitude.







https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Oppressed-sharp-attitude/108930239188615


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## malatesta32 (Oct 12, 2012)

i heart roddy!


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## miktheword (Oct 12, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> from gary hodges,
> As skins were led through the escape route, the police actually shouted for assistance to the skins, and both forces formed a barricade between the Asians and the tavern. It was the angry Asian mob that was fighting the police, and it was the skins that stood shoulder-to-shoulder trying to fend them off.


 

can agree with that. Chatted to an ex Tottenham football lad, fash, who was a roadie for the band at that gig. He said they had to join forces with the OB (SPG I think) to survive. Strange mindset he had though, saying to me 'it was just a gig' i.e. not meant to be like a B & H fundraiser /recruitment/ stir things up, event.
Yeah, I said...in Southall?!!?

Residence wise, I 'graduated' to nearby Hayes from Acton, and went to school with a lot of asians who joined Holy Smokes, one of two local asian gangs (I think they took their name from the embers of the pub, can't swear to it). The fash roadie said that he was loading the minibus with amps etc, was shouted to watch out and run for it, just as he did so, the van went up in flames.
He looks back now and isn't proud of the fact that they let the asian shops have it on their way back to the station.
Despite the earlier race alliance between the OB and the skins, he says the OB gave it to the skins good and proper when they got to Paddington.

(as an aside, Martin Lux's book, 'Anti fascist' has a good description of a battle at a gig in Southall when BM got turned over. He was an anarchist with a distaste for some of his fellow travellers, similar to that found in BtF; says that on the night, it was a hardened , experienced group of mad cockney red lefties who arrived to turn over the BM.) edit, meaning cockney reds, as in football, complete with bar scarfs...cud've been MoF then!


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## Anudder Oik (Oct 13, 2012)

I remember there was a rumour around 1981 that the singer of the 4 Skins or the manager had been a member of the leader guard, a squad of the BM or NF. I heard that from a couple of right wing skins. The ones at Southall did line up behind the police. There were photos in the press proving it at the time.

I went to several oi gigs (1980-82) and there was never any right wing politics from the bands. Screwdriver and all that shit was a seperate entity. Very few in the crowd gave nazi salutes at oi gigs but there would always be one, sometimes four, who did. The politics of oi was class based and anti establishment.
During the riots in the summer of 81 there was confusion among skins as to what side they should be on. Most wanted to take on the police but about 500 turned up behind Brixton police station to offer their help to the police but the police attacked them. All the oi lyrics were for having a go at the old bill.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 13, 2012)

Anudder Oik said:


> about 500 turned up behind Brixton police station to offer their help to the police but the police attacked them


 
Well I bet they felt a bit silly!


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 13, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> also mick o farrell wrote a poem on the back of Oi 4 or summat according to bushell's book Hoolies (i only had the 1st 2). GB also cites RA a couple of times not TOO unfavourably. i dont think original Oi in general was that right wing, but mainly apolotical. the rejects spoke out against the BM as 'the german movement.' the easiest media connection was 'skins like oi! all skins are nazis, ergo oi is nazis.' which is bollocks on several levels. henderson was a tool and his band were shit, the far right didnt like bushell so their bands distanced themselves from it. and bushell was keen to distance oi from them as he was trying to break it with the record companies. decca did the 1st nicky crane LP but hamborough tavern blew it for him regarding mainstream success. roddy of the oppressed is grand! dunno what oi is like now but it took off a wee bit with the hardcore US punk/skins at one point.


 
The Southall incident had the potential to alienate sections of Oi  that had RAR support if they had all been tarnished with the same brush. MoF did quite a good piece on Oi which was pretty much if it comes from the working class then it is working class politics sort of thing.

I went to a gig and met up with MoF and some others just after they had left/been expelled and had a very long chat with Bushell and some people from Oi about a possible benefit for Right to Work. They were up for that but very scathing about the more middle class elements around the left and ANL, but there was no racism. I met Bushell a few years later at another gig and pushed him on rumours that we had heard about him  and he was adamant that he had no far right sympathies but in fact had been done over by he fash himself. Of course he later scabbed on Wapping and then was later seen at a Mosley celebration dinner and without naming him was fully outed in Collin's book.

Bushell was at North East London Polytechnic and IS/SWP stronghold ( the student wing was National Organisation of International Socialists Students (NOISS)), he actually  ran the defence campaign when Strouthous the SWP President of the NUS there got jailed over an occupation at the college  over overseas student fees.He heavily promoted RAR and Right To Work in Sounds.When the Redskins started he was actually very supportive in reviews and contacts.The question we never worked out; was he a convert to the far right?If so when did he turn and why? was he a far right sleeper? or was he a far right infiltrator? (The latter is unlikely as he donated money and provided them with publicity)

Any thought?


----------



## audiotech (Oct 13, 2012)

Scab.


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## malatesta32 (Oct 13, 2012)

thank you very much for the info! i aint got time to process it just now but it seems to clarify some jumbled reports! ive just done southall/hamborough so will got back over that. am on to red action, glc, chapel market and the history of brick lane and reading we are RA, and the making of RA. grand!


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## Red Storm (Oct 14, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> thank you very much for the info! i aint got time to process it just now but it seems to clarify some jumbled reports! ive just done southall/hamborough so will got back over that. am on to red action, glc, chapel market and the history of brick lane and reading we are RA, and the making of RA. grand!


 
Are you going to wait until all the _Red Action_s are online before you publish? Must be worth going through them all? 

I've put up three on the archive though.


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## malatesta32 (Oct 15, 2012)

im just doing RA now - having downloaded some RA stuff from AFA Archive - and will go back over the section, especially for some of their 'anti-fascist reports' which are most amusing, when the RA stuff is online and expand it.


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## malatesta32 (Oct 17, 2012)

anybody got more info on remembrance day, 1986 after the cenotaph and before 'the wimpy massacree!' who was running about? did they have it with NF in trafalgar sq? was it true that 2 were stabbed - according to a rumour mentioned in RA anyway?


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## malatesta32 (Oct 17, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> Bushell was at North East London Polytechnic and IS/SWP stronghold ( the student wing was National Organisation of International Socialists Students (NOISS)), he actually ran the defence campaign when Strouthous the SWP President of the NUS there got jailed over an occupation at the college over overseas student fees.He heavily promoted RAR and Right To Work in Sounds.When the Redskins started he was actually very supportive in reviews and contacts.The question we never worked out; was he a convert to the far right?If so when did he turn and why? was he a far right sleeper? or was he a far right infiltrator? (The latter is unlikely as he donated money and provided them with publicity). Any thought?


 
steps, thanks for the info. re: bushell. i think he genuinely did believe in oi! and the working class aspect and got fucked off with the SWP - especially the leadership. i remember being with anarchos a bit later who were always whining about 'middle class' and 'students' etc which i thought was a bit fucking pointless but they were genuinely aggrieved about them 'taking over' various things. they didnt leave though. i always thought bushell spent too long with people who didnt give a fuck about politics - rejects etc - and then gravitated or rather flirted with the far right before becoming a reactionary berk and making clarkson like 'controversial statements' that are very boring indeed.


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## Fozzie Bear (Oct 17, 2012)

Maybe with Bushell you have to look at psychological/social motivation rather than ideological. It's clear from Collins' "Hate" that the NF tried to give him the full celebrity treatment. Big fish in a small pond syndrome?

Also maybe "rebel" status and being "in the know" was more important than the politics?

If you look at someone like Tony Wakeford (who played loads or RAR benefit gigs whilst a member of Crisis, but then went on to join the NF and form a fascist band) he was also apparently pissed off with SWP/RAR types. But I also got the impression that he liked being a big cheese in a subculture, liked the hardness/authenticity/badman status that went with far right stuff...

Loads of people have been pissed off by the SWP or grown disillusioned with the left, but most of them avoided becoming members of fascist organisations...


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## malatesta32 (Oct 17, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> Heroes or Villains was first published in 1992 and then in 1997, iirc.
> 
> I'm not sure on We Are Red Action but it was early.


 

the making is 1988 it seems, and i think we are RA is 82 then reprinted 1987. i think ...


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## The39thStep (Oct 17, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> steps, thanks for the info. re: bushell. i think he genuinely did believe in oi! and the working class aspect and got fucked off with the SWP - especially the leadership. i remember being with anarchos a bit later who were always whining about 'middle class' and 'students' etc which i thought was a bit fucking pointless but they were genuinely aggrieved about them 'taking over' various things. they didnt leave though. i always thought bushell spent too long with people who didnt give a fuck about politics - rejects etc - and then gravitated or rather flirted with the far right before becoming a reactionary berk and making clarkson like 'controversial statements' that are very boring indeed.


 
as Fozzie said  being fucked off with he leadership of a small far left group doesn't normally propel them into becoming an NF associate  especially as if you say it was because 'he genuinely did believe in the working class aspect'. Doesn't explain how someone who 'genuinely did believe in the working class aspect' ended up at the same time being a celebrity scab in a strike or seen at a Mosley commemoration dinner. teaching your daughter to seig heil isn't flirting.

As for Wakeford deffo big fish in a very small musical puddle of neo-folk ,


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## malatesta32 (Oct 18, 2012)

yeah fair enough steps. aint got an answer to it. the one thing tho is the left to right transition, its usually right to left as the left has all the answers! probably.


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## audiotech (Oct 18, 2012)

A dedication to Bushell and Tony Parsons et al:


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## malatesta32 (Oct 18, 2012)

ha ha! aint heard that for a wee while. had most of their records, played em abaht once each.


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## framed (Oct 18, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> Are you going to wait until all the _Red Action_s are online before you publish? Must be worth going through them all?
> 
> I've put up three on the archive though.


 

I think you need to properly distinguish between the Red Action _newspaper_ and the Red Action _bulletin_ which replaced it. Those are RA Bulletins that you've uploaded, which were produced in an A4 size glossy magazine format. The newspaper edition was published in a standard tabloid size newsprint format over several years.


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## Red Storm (Oct 19, 2012)

framed said:


> I think you need to properly distinguish between the Red Action _newspaper_ and the Red Action _bulletin_ which replaced it. Those are RA Bulletins that you've uploaded, which were produced in an A4 size glossy magazine format. The newspaper edition was published in a standard tabloid size newsprint format over several years.


 
I thought they were a like for like replacement. Thanks for the info though.

I've amended the post.


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## malatesta32 (Oct 20, 2012)

according to larry o'h, both butler and lecomber were attacked by 1 of C18 in 93/94. any info on this? i seem to remember lecomber attacking butler apparently dressed as a ninja in loughton or similar but not this. any ideas?


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## malatesta32 (Oct 24, 2012)

anyone?


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## malatesta32 (Nov 2, 2012)

according to the ever reliable wikipedia: 
Sargent was convicted of murder at Chelmsford Crown Court the following year. He and Cross were sentenced to life imprisonment and Cross remains in prison to this day, though Sargent has recently been released

cant find much on it tho!


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## DaveCinzano (Nov 2, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> according to the ever reliable wikipedia:
> Sargent was convicted of murder at ChelmsfordCrown Court the following year. He and Cross were sentenced to life imprisonment and Cross remains in prison to this day, though Sargent has recently been released
> 
> cant find much on it tho!


 
Released 12 September?

http://griffinwatch-nwn.blogspot. com/2012/09/stephen-yaxley-lennon-bought-and-paid.html?showComment=1347560718595#c8585007549489965284


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## butchersapron (Nov 2, 2012)

Don't tell me people bought that twitter thing that had a newspaper report of another sargent who was released? Which is not to say that it's not happened, but...

Can't get the above link to load btw


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## Red Storm (Nov 2, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Don't tell me people bought that twitter thing that had a newspaper report of another sargent who was released? Can't get the above link to load btw


 
Its broken. There is a space in the ".com".


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## butchersapron (Nov 2, 2012)

Doh! 

Looks like that twitter rubbish thing, fits the timeframe i think.


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## Joe Reilly (Nov 2, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> according to the ever reliable wikipedia:
> Sargent was convicted of murder at ChelmsfordCrown Court the following year. He and Cross were sentenced to life imprisonment and Cross remains in prison to this day, though Sargent has recently been released
> 
> cant find much on it tho!


 
Much of this is, the why's and wherefore's is covered in BTF.


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## malatesta32 (Nov 2, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> Much of this is, the why's and wherefore's is covered in BTF.


joe, i meant the release. he is due out. he got 14 years to cross's 18 (i think) and some twat on vnn mentioned it but i havent seen anything anywhere. there was a whole thing going on 'hes a grass, we gonna do him when hes out.' usual bletherskites!


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## malatesta32 (Nov 2, 2012)

the griffin watch blog - run by inadequate nazi sean hadley says: 
The State like dealing with gangsters and criminals, as their dealings with the likes of the Jewish Krays proved, also some of the scum who attack genuine Nationalists as Gri££in's attack dogs. Incidentally talking of State sponsored Special Branch scum I've just heard Charlie Sargent was released from prison yesterday.
13/19/12.


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## Joe Reilly (Nov 2, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> joe, i meant the release. he is due out. he got 14 years to cross's 18 (i think) and some twat on vnn mentioned it but i havent seen anything anywhere. there was a whole thing going on 'hes a grass, we gonna do him when hes out.' usual bletherskites!


 
It's well know he was a SB asset. It came out in the trial. It also 'came out' in BTF including the relationshiop between Browning and Lecomber, and C18 and the BNP in answer to your previous query no 3424


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## framed (Nov 2, 2012)

Dunno if this has been posted elsewhere on Urban, but this looks like an appropriate place to post a link for the new Red Action Archive site, which is now online.

*RED ACTION*


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## weepiper (Nov 2, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> It's well know he was a SB asset. It came out in the trial. It also 'came out' in BTF including the relationshiop between Browning and Lecomber, and C18 and the BNP in answer to your previous query no 3424


 
If I remember right he got a visit whilst in custody from SB. No other suspect in the murder of Castle got such a visit, not exactly difficult to work out why and as an added bonus why C18 were allowed to get away with certain things for so long.

E2A Fed posting.


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## malatesta32 (Nov 3, 2012)

spent most of yesterday on it when i really shd have been doing the book! its great.


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## malatesta32 (Nov 3, 2012)

weepiper said:


> If I remember right he got a visit whilst in custody from SB. No other suspect in the murder of Castle got such a visit, not exactly difficult to work out why and as an added bonus why C18 were allowed to get away with certain things for so long.
> 
> E2A Fed posting.


 
there is a long thread on shirtfront from brownings side and sounds pretty authentic. it says that SB were desperately trying to get CS  and help pin it on browning but the local plod dealing with the murder case pushed it thru and fucked SB off. browning was nicked but didnt make a statement, CS was at large for a month after the murder. cross wasnt! it reeks!


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## barney_pig (Nov 3, 2012)

Matthew worley has done some interviews with bushell for his research on Oi I am hoping to see him in the next week or so and will ask him how Bushell describes his political development.


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## Spanky Longhorn (Nov 3, 2012)

barney_pig said:


> Matthew worley has done some interviews with bushell for his research on Oi I am hoping to see him in the next week or so and will ask him how Bushell describes his political development.


 
Would be interesting cheers


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## malatesta32 (Nov 4, 2012)

and if you can post any links, articles that yer man has about, that wd be great. just on oi, blood and honour, C18 etc in the antifascist book. wd be very timely barneyP!


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## jackie 68 (Nov 6, 2012)

Just a couple of observations on the review of the book by AFA Ireland. Ill ignore the accusation we weren't very nice people and deal with two more important points.


The book ,the writer says,  lavishes praise " on gangland figures who sometimes lent AFA a hand. Given the reality of the relationship between criminals and the working class communities they prey on, it grates that some of these characters are singled out for praise." 

Presumably this is the section that mentions Dessie Noonan?? I don't remember AFA Ireland having a problem with No Retreat when it also talked about the role of Mr Noonan. Nor did AFA Ireland ever raise any issue about working with him at any stage. Nor did the author personally raise any issue on his many trips to Manchester. By the way just out of interest how did Dessie prey on working class communities?

However I suppose this (and the mean boys accusation) was all just scene setting building up to

"There is also a vindictive element to the account of how a former Red Action and AFA activist, Dave Hann, eventually severed his links with the organization. Hann was a central figure in anti-Fascism in Manchester in the early 1990s but is portrayed as a fairly marginal, if not naïve character, in the book. As the BNP tried to establish themselves in the mill towns of Lancashire, AFA’s Northern Network, with Hann prominent, moved to combat them. In one incident in Rochdale, mentioned in the book, a large group of fascists came upon a group of AFA activists. Many of those present were new to anti-fascist politics and as the BNP charged, their ranks wavered. However ‘two leading RA people stepped forward and broke bottles off the wall (and) instantly people rallied’: the fascists were put to flight. Hann was one of the ‘two leading RA people’ but is not named, as this would surely position him as a more important activist than previously suggested. Similarly he is written out entirely of the account of the 1995 Bloody Sunday march in Manchester, in which he was again prominent. In December 1991 he was sent to help out AFA in Glasgow during one of their first major confrontations, also recounted in the book, but again his presence there is not mentioned. Much of the Northern Network’s activities were described in _No Retreat_, written by Hann and Steve Tilzey published in 2004. It seems Hann’s contribution has to be downplayed in order that his eventual departure from AFA appears as the result of purely personal failings. (That’s Hann at Hyde Park in 1989 putting the boot into a bonehead on page 158 of _Beating the Fascists_ by the way.)

Unfortunately this colours what otherwise is an important study of militant anti-fascism"

Firstly again AFA Ireland at no time sought any clarification from AFA in England/Scotland about any of the reasons why Dave Hann was put out of AFA.
Dave Hann played an important role in AFA in the North for a good few years and was a valued and trusted member. However when he approached AFA people telling them of his involvement in a mugging and asking for help that was it he was gone. The fact that his co-accused did a deal on the day of the case that involved the dropping of charges against Dave in exchange for his guilty plea made no difference to AFA. Incidently that was why he wasnt mentioned in relation to Bloody Sunday in Manchester- because he wasn't with the AFA group instead he was on the march because he was on charges.
All this has been done to death- why bring it up again?
It is unfortunate that someone with a longstanding anti-Red Action agenda was allowed to write this review and "colour" it with personal and political nonsense.


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## Joe Reilly (Nov 7, 2012)

jackie 68 said:


> "There is also a vindictive element to the account of how a former Red Action and AFA activist, Dave Hann, eventually severed his links with the organization.
> 
> *As outlined at some length in BTF it was AFA that severed links with him. And there was nothing 'vindictive' in it. *
> 
> ...


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## Red Storm (Nov 7, 2012)

> A former member of the AFA executive has also published a book recently, for which he interviewed Hann, and who in turn was interviewed by Hann, both seemingly agreed that 'the problem with RA in AFA', was that RA was in AFA!


 
Which book is that?


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## love detective (Nov 7, 2012)

Tony Greenstain's


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## Joe Reilly (Nov 8, 2012)

love detective said:


> Tony Greenstain's


 
He was on the original mostly white collar executive for a period following the launch in 1985. Hated Searchlight and RA in equal measure seemingly. An odd little fellow.


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## Red Storm (Nov 8, 2012)

His letters I put on the archive are pretty funny


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## barney_pig (Nov 9, 2012)

Tony green stein came talk to us when we formed the Red Party. He seemed amiable, but a mite obsessive and a little uncomfortable with our somewhat relaxed attitudes.


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## plug ugly (Nov 11, 2012)

barney_pig said:


> Tony green stein came talk to us when we formed the Red Party. He seemed amiable, but a mite obsessive and a little uncomfortable with our somewhat relaxed attitudes.


 
What was the Red Party?


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## audiotech (Nov 11, 2012)

I recall Tony Greenstein, as secretary of Brighton Unemployed Centre, writing a piece on his blog on, Paul Kenny, of the GMB, asking why he'd signed-up to a report with an American anti-union workfare company.

And this.


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## malatesta32 (Nov 12, 2012)

love detective said:


> Tony Greenstain's


has anyone read this book? is it worth a tenner?


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## The39thStep (Nov 12, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> has anyone read this book? is it worth a tenner?


 
Tony Greensteins entire political contribution isn't worth a tenner


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## malatesta32 (Nov 12, 2012)

bit harsh steps! but i wondered if it had any interesting snippets on militant AF activity and how long it covers. there was a bit of argy bargy in brighton with mosley before and after the war (beckman details a gory day out!).


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## Greebo (Nov 12, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> Tony Greensteins entire political contribution isn't worth a tenner


Result, tenner saved.


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## Red Storm (Nov 23, 2012)

Noticed that Dave Hann's book Physical Resistance: A Hundred Years of Anti-Fascism will be out 25th January.  




 


> Large-scale confrontations, disruption of meetings, sabotage and street fighting have been part of the practice of anti-fascism from the early twentieth century until the twenty-first. Rarely endorsed by any political party, the use of collective bodily strength remains a strategy of activists working in alliances and coalitions against fascism. In Physical Resistance famous battles against fascists, from the Olympia arena, Earls Court in 1934 and Cable Street in 1936 to Southall in 1978 and Bradford 2010, are told through the voices of participants. Anarchists, communists and socialists who belonged to a shifting series of anti-fascist organizations relate well-known events alongside many forgotten but significant episodes.


 


> Combining scholarship with the knowledge that can only come from political experience this is a moving memorial to the late author and those who have fought fascism in Britain for almost a hundred years. Detailed accounts, eye witness testimony and a non-sectarian approach make this an engaging and fascinating account that should be read by activists and historians of all kinds.


 Dr Hilda Kean


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## Deareg (Nov 23, 2012)

I look forward to reading it.


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## DaveCinzano (Nov 23, 2012)

http://www.zero-books.net/authors/dave-hann&i=9


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## The39thStep (Nov 24, 2012)

That's blown Malatesta's book out of the water


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## malatesta32 (Nov 24, 2012)

im actually reviewing it for Freedom. and mines better anyway!


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## SpineyNorman (Nov 24, 2012)

So if No Retreat was the Searchlight spoiler for BTF, is this the searchlight spoiler for the Malatesta book?


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## Joe Reilly (Nov 24, 2012)

DaveCinzano said:


> http://www.zero-books.net/authors/dave-hann&i=9


 
_"He was a dedicated researcher, often irritated by the lack of attention to details and dates by professional historians." _

You really have to stand back and admire the chutzpah. His own autobiography had no index and few dates, and the couple that he did include had the untrammeled reliability of road signs in the Ardenne during the Battle of the Bulge.


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## bignose1 (Nov 24, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> _"He was a dedicated researcher, often irritated by the lack of attention to details and dates by professional historians." _
> 
> You really have to stand back and admire the chutzpah. His own autobiography had no index and few dates, and the couple that he did include had the untrammeled reliability of road signs in the Ardenne during the Battle of the Bulge.


Right on Sean.....


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## malatesta32 (Nov 25, 2012)

wait till you've read it before starting all that up again!


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## Joe Reilly (Nov 25, 2012)

jackie 68 said:


> All this has been done to death- why bring it up again?


 
To review BTF a full two years after publication struck every body as odd.The announcement of _'No Retreat 2'_ has to be the answer.


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## malatesta32 (Nov 25, 2012)

i can assure you it is not NR2 folks but a history of militant AF activity from 20s onwards or thereabouts.


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## frogwoman (Nov 25, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> Tony Greensteins entire political contribution isn't worth a tenner


 
what makes you say that mate? i only know him from his palestine stuff (not that I know very much about it)


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## Deareg (Nov 25, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> i can assure you it is not NR2 folks but a history of militant AF activity from 20s onwards or thereabouts.


Have you read it Mal?


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## bignose1 (Nov 26, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> To review BTF a full two years after publication struck every body as odd.The announcement of _'No Retreat 2'_ has to be the answer.


No Retreat 2...ha ha..another Searchlight Spoiler ho ho... you really do take first prize for that one.... Another fine example of the O'Shea conspiracy machine in motion. So where does the recent Serbian edition and the soon to be Polish and German NR editions come into it. 2 years is a long time in politics ...as for Daves book...well the stuff Ive seen before he died should be a great help to the movement for academics and activists alike. No doubt you will find issue with it not for its content, although you probably will... but because it'll be open season again and another oppurtunity to rehash the lies and smears you so eloquently foisted on his family when he died.

ps I went through a little exercise the other day and looked at some of your posts. Everyone I looked at (30 or so-a decent sample) was slagging someone/something/somewhere off. What does that say?? Yeah answers on a postcard to Jeremy Kyle ..he should get you on his show...


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## Pickman's model (Nov 26, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> wait till you've read it before starting all that up again!


We'll need a new thread for a new book. It'll be 'ding ding round two'


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## Pickman's model (Nov 26, 2012)

Or 22...


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## malatesta32 (Nov 26, 2012)

Deareg said:


> Have you read it Mal?


 
im reviewing it for freedom newspaper and so far its pretty good. its about 380 pages long so its pretty thorough.


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## malatesta32 (Nov 26, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> We'll need a new thread for a new book. It'll be 'ding ding round two'


 
crivvens, i hope not! the books do cover similar territory but they will inevitably differ on some things. i am just glad that with NR, BTF, Hanns book and mine as well as others that there's an increase in the numbers of books on a MILITANT history that was in danger of remaining undocumented. the more stuff the better i say!


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## Pickman's model (Nov 26, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> crivvens, i hope not! the books do cover similar territory but they will inevitably differ on some things. i am just glad that with NR, BTF, Hanns book and mine as well as others that there's an increase in the numbers of books on a MILITANT history that was in danger of remaining undocumented. the more stuff the better i say!


you could maybe do a booklaunch at next year's bookfair  or book relaunch


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## malatesta32 (Nov 26, 2012)

yeah well hopefully it'll be out by then. deadline is feb and i'm 79,000 words out of 100k in!


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## frogwoman (Nov 26, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> Tony Greensteins entire political contribution isn't worth a tenner


 
actually forget that, i've just read his blog for the first time in ages and he's said loads of anti-working class shit on it.


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## The39thStep (Nov 26, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> crivvens, i hope not! the books do cover similar territory but they will inevitably differ on some things. i am just glad that with NR, BTF, Hanns book and mine as well as others that there's an increase in the numbers of books on a MILITANT history that was in danger of remaining undocumented. the more stuff the better i say!


 
You need something to differentiate from the rest


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## Fozzie Bear (Nov 26, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> You need something to differentiate from the rest


 
Ditch the book and do it as a westend musical.


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## DaveCinzano (Nov 26, 2012)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Ditch the book and do it as a westend musical.


How about _EDL: The Rucky Shower Of Horrors_?


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## bignose1 (Nov 26, 2012)

DaveCinzano said:


> How about _EDL: The Rucky Shower Of Horrors_?


Sniff Family Robinson by Loser Carrol
..........or to be more current regards stuff happening in the NE....Malice in Sunderland..by the same author.


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## Deareg (Nov 26, 2012)

Carry on kicking fascists?


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## DaveCinzano (Nov 26, 2012)

Deareg said:


> Carry on kicking fascists?


May I respectfully suggest that you don't take musical theatre as your _Mastermind_ specialist subject?


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## malatesta32 (Nov 26, 2012)

seig-heil follies? the jizz flingers? the kane & I? etc ...


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## Spanky Longhorn (Nov 26, 2012)

you could do one on the CxF

Seven thousand spelling mistakes for seven walts


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## Citizen66 (Nov 27, 2012)

Barfight Express.


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## Joe Reilly (Nov 28, 2012)

framed said:


> Below is the review of *Beating The Fascists* that appears in the latest issue of AFA Ireland's magazine _No Quarter_.
> 
> *Sean Birchall, Beating the Fascists: the Untold Story of Anti-Fascist Action *
> 
> ...


 
Missed this for time round but it needs to be tackled before in hardens into urban myth, and I don't mean on here. This is the notion, soon to be paraded elsewhere I suspect, that eventually AFA faded away, and this was due in part to RA's beligerent approach. No basis in fact.

AFA was still growing when the BNP jacked. In fact that AFA was still _visibly_ growing particularly in places like the West Midlands (the last area to be organised following relaunch in '89) the whiteman's redoubt, was the key reason the BNP swerved away from street confrontation. Accordingly the lazy allegation that 'so many activists eventually found RA in particular hard to work with', is once again found to be without foundation.

As for the claim that those who AFA disagreed being derided as cowards and knaves and so on rather implies without quiet saying it that the these unfortunates were _falsely labelled._ But no evidence is presented to back this insinuation up. So why does the unnamed reviewer for AFA Ireland present it as 'a problem'?

Subliminally, perhaps readers are meant to draw that conclusion that the most celebrated example of nefarious activity mentioned in _BTF_ was also a result of some prior political falling out. Instead the falling out was as a _consequence_ of the aforementioned 'nefarious activity'. This dosen't stop Louise Purbeck in the foreword to her book brazenly stating that the hostility to 'No Retreat' can be put down purely to 'sectarianism', the inference being that Hann was in fact representative of a rival political _tendency_ in order to explain away his untimely departure from the organisation of which it is again implied he was 'a/the leading light' or alternatively 'founding member'.

And even when the on line RA archives now prove conclusively that he hadn't even joined RA as a supporting which is to say _prospective_ member (no voting rights) until sometime in 1987, Purbeck seems to want to extend his CV considerably, to not only playing a key role in the founding of AFA two years earlier, but also, perhaps carelessly, allowing the inference to be drawn that, Hann, along with Tlizsy, had also been active in the ANL squads an additional five years hence.

With the recent boast of No Retreat being translated into a number of languages and a second revisionist effort on the way, not to mention the mooted Tilzey movie or the upcoming Gable memoir, to still claim that it all amounts to little more than a 'personal spat' does begin to look complacent at best.

What in fact we are witnessing here is a determined re-writing of history and recent history at that.


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## Citizen66 (Nov 28, 2012)

History is written by the victors. And their comrades.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 28, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> Missed this for time round but it needs to be tackled before in hardens into urban myth, and I don't mean on here. This is the notion, soon to be paraded elsewhere I suspect, that eventually AFA faded away, and this was due in part to RA's beligerent approach. No basis in fact.
> 
> AFA was still growing when the BNP jacked. In fact that AFA was still _visibly_ growing particularly in places like the West Midlands (the last area to be organised following relaunch in '89) the whiteman's redoubt, was the key reason the BNP swerved away from street confrontation. Accordingly the lazy allegation that 'so many activists eventually found RA in particular hard to work with', is once again found to be without foundation.
> 
> ...


Joe, if it's any comfort barbara cartland's books have been translated into a range of languages but this hasn't made them more accurate or reduced their fictional element. The same, I suggest, with nr.


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## Citizen66 (Nov 28, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> Joe, if it's any comfort barbara cartland's books have been translated into a range of languages but this hasn't made them more accurate or reduced their fictional element. The same, I suggest, with nr.



The lane ends with two doors. One door leads to fallacies and the other leads to truth. Both doors will answer your questions. One door lies and the other tells the truth. Which door is lying?

Muppet.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 28, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> The lane ends with two doors. One door leads to fallacies and the other leads to truth. Both doors will answer your questions. One door lies and the other tells the truth. Which door is lying?
> 
> Muppet.


doors don't talk. pls in future make your hypotheticals at least vaguely credible.

muppet.


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## LiamO (Nov 28, 2012)

shaaat it yew slaaaaaags...  handbags must include bignose on this thread - by order!


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## Pickman's model (Nov 28, 2012)

LiamO said:


> shaaat it yew slaaaaaags... handbags must include bignose on this thread - by order!


he'll be along shortly no doubt


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## Pickman's model (Nov 29, 2012)

*taps watch*


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## Citizen66 (Nov 29, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> doors don't talk. pls in future make your hypotheticals at least vaguely credible.
> 
> muppet.



I'm fairly certain they had a few hits.


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## bignose1 (Nov 29, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> Missed this for time round but it needs to be tackled before in hardens into urban myth, and I don't mean on here. This is the notion, soon to be paraded elsewhere I suspect, that eventually AFA faded away, and this was due in part to RA's beligerent approach. No basis in fact.
> 
> AFA was still growing when the BNP jacked. In fact that AFA was still _visibly_ growing particularly in places like the West Midlands (the last area to be organised following relaunch in '89) the whiteman's redoubt, was the key reason the BNP swerved away from street confrontation. Accordingly the lazy allegation that 'so many activists eventually found RA in particular hard to work with', is once again found to be without foundation.
> 
> ...


At least get my name right....Ill talk about me. Please tell me how I extended my my CV. ANL squads? Come on fellah thats sloppy research. If my CV is up for scrutiny then give me a time line. I await your findings. Set it out neatly now. Then you all do the same. List it in both Anti Fascist involvement and general political activity so the pissing contest can really get into full swing. Why is everybodys version except yours a bag of revisionist shite ...that just goes to show the chauvanistic attitude you have.

The film project has hit a bit of a wall...due to confidentiality issues I cant say more on that, the translations however are on the go. All unauthorised/bootleg with my full blessing....they asked out of courtesy and with any profits going to militant anti facsists in those countries. The Polish edition is likely to come out first...the German sometime shortly after. Why would experienced international anti fascists touch it with the proverbial shitty stick. They havnt been hoodwinked or anything...these are serious people who dont ponce about dressed in black. They would take offence to being labelled as naive or duped as you no doubt will say.

Just accept that you dont own antifacsism as much as HnH/Searchlight/or who the fuck else doesnt. You just cant handle that someone else has the audacity to put their stories into the arena...thats says more about damaged ego's than it does anything else. And for the doubters or those who are too lazy to research properly heres the Serbian edition.


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## bignose1 (Nov 29, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> Joe, if it's any comfort barbara cartland's books have been translated into a range of languages but this hasn't made them more accurate or reduced their fictional element. The same, I suggest, with nr.


Have you not finished on his cock yet...


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## Pickman's model (Nov 29, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Have you not finished on his cock yet...


it's this sort of response which persuades me that nr is perhaps not entirely factually accurate.


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## bignose1 (Nov 29, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> it's this sort of response which persuades me that nr is perhaps not entirely factually accurate.


But honestly what do you expect.....you line up with these characters...slag me off as a fantasist....and by inference my 35+ commtittment to anti fascsim and the 'movement'  You dont give me any option. Your ill/un/informed views will not change whether I give you a polished up and prosaic fuck off or cut the chase and be more industrial. Thats me. My fishing mates get the same.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 29, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> But honestly what do you expect.....you line up with these characters...slag me off as a fantasist....and by inference my 35+ commtittment to anti fascsim and the 'movement' You dont give me any option. Your ill/un/informed views will not change whether I give you a polished up and prosaic fuck off or cut the chase and be more industrial. Thats me. My fishing mates get the same.


can you vouch for the veracity of every statement in the book?


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## TopCat (Nov 29, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> But honestly what do you expect.....you line up with these characters...slag me off as a fantasist....and by inference my 35+ commtittment to anti fascsim and the 'movement' You dont give me any option. Your ill/un/informed views will not change whether I give you a polished up and prosaic fuck off or cut the chase and be more industrial. Thats me. My fishing mates get the same.


 
No one here expects much of you. You are just trying to re write history and use a mixture of abuse, lies, obscuring the facts and personal attacks to hide your obvious shame. Lets not forget, you are Gables man and worked serving his agenda.


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## bignose1 (Nov 29, 2012)

TopCat said:


> No one here expects much of you. You are just trying to re write history and use a mixture of abuse, lies, obscuring the facts and personal attacks to hide your obvious shame. Lets not forget, you are Gables man and worked serving his agenda.


Oh really. And you...paragon of virtue whoever the fuck you are can pass judgement on me. GTF. OShea's and his sycophants attacks arn't personal. My shame...what the fuck are you on about. Youve just done what your accusing me of you idiot. Im Gables man...shows the utter backwardness of you and your ilk. This post matey shows just what you and your allies are really like. deluded bitter and unable to accept the deep seated bitterness you hold for people who got in your way. Keep it up.


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## bignose1 (Nov 29, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> can you vouch for the veracity of every statement in the book?


I dont have to vouch fuck all to you pal. What a fucking nerve.


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## bignose1 (Nov 29, 2012)

Ok Pickmans Model. Name and full political CV.
Top Cat Name and full political CV.
Otherwise keep stum about what other cunts get up to...

...Its called earning that right...!


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## Pickman's model (Nov 29, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> I dont have to vouch fuck all to you pal. What a fucking nerve.


in that case i think i'm perfectly entitled to consider the book to be at least partially fictional. you've marketed it as true, so your refusal to confirm that's the case doesn't really show you in a good light.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 29, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Ok Pickmans Model. Name and full political CV.
> Top Cat Name and full political CV.
> Otherwise keep stum about what other cunts get up to...
> 
> ...Its called earning that right...!


if you're on about full political cvs you can start with yours given that nr doesn't cover a thirty-five year period.


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## bignose1 (Nov 29, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> in that case i think i'm perfectly entitled to consider the book to be at least partially fictional. you've marketed it as true, so your refusal to confirm that's the case doesn't really show you in a good light.


You dont get it...you are the only ones hassling me. A meagre handful at that. You refuse to name yourself and what your achievements are but expect me to. To me thats not only arrogant and downright pathetic but dishonest. You will either have to put yourself on offer or fuck off.Youre so interested in me its akin to stalking(yes gary it appears I have one too) Well lets turn it round and you start telling me what youve done thats so remarkably stunning. Ill still be able to cunt you off if I dont believe you but hey Ill give you a chance fellah.


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## bignose1 (Nov 29, 2012)

For those who cant add up. Im 55 next month. I got involved in 1977 as a 20 y.o. Fucking basic math my friend.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 29, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> You dont get it...you are the only ones hassling me. A meagre handful at that. You refuse to name yourself and what your achievements are but expect me to. To me thats not only arrogant and downright pathetic but dishonest. You will either have to put yourself on offer or fuck off.Youre so interested in me its akin to stalking(yes gary it appears I have one too) Well lets turn it round and you start telling me what youve done thats so remarkably stunning. Ill still be able to cunt you off if I dont believe you but hey Ill give you a chance fellah.


i have told you what i've done. you've got the fucking memory of a goldfish.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 29, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> But honestly what do you expect.....you line up with these characters...slag me off as a fantasist....and by inference my 35+ commtittment to anti fascsim and the 'movement' You dont give me any option. Your ill/un/informed views will not change whether I give you a polished up and prosaic fuck off or cut the chase and be more industrial. Thats me. My fishing mates get the same.





bignose1 said:


> For those who cant add up. Im 55 next month. I got involved in 1977 as a 20 y.o. Fucking basic math my friend.


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## bignose1 (Nov 29, 2012)

Is any of BTF fictional??...What proof have you there arnt a few porkies?? Their word for it.Nuff said


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## The39thStep (Nov 29, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> i have told you what i've done. you've got the fucking memory of a goldfish.


 
is there enough for a book?


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## bignose1 (Nov 29, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> i have told you what i've done. you've got the fucking memory of a goldfish.


Yeah....so why harp on about mine ffs. you cant be on these things hiding behind a pen name slating me fellah without me saying owt back. I advise people to stand up to bullies, having seen enough of them as a steward. Your behaviour in these matters is adding up to a campaign of harrassment and character assasination. You should really know better.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 29, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Is any of BTF fictional??...What proof have you there arnt a few porkies?? Their word for it.Nuff said


i've asked for your word for your own book, we can turn to jr when we've finished this.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 29, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Yeah....so why harp on about mine ffs. you cant be on these things hiding behind a pen name slating me fellah without me saying owt back. I advise people to stand up to bullies, having seen enough of them as a steward. Your behaviour in these matters is adding up to a campaign of harrass,ment and character assasination. You should really know better.


what, fucking 6 or 7 posts? you've the skin of a blancmange.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 29, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> is there enough for a book?


if solzhenitsyn could get a book out of only one day in the life of ivan denisovich, then there may be a book in even your tawdry life.


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## The39thStep (Nov 29, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> if solzhenitsyn could get a book out of only one day in the life of ivan denisovich, then there may be a book in even your tawdry life.


 
Probably a colour supplement in my case or in yours a small ad in under a fiver


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## bignose1 (Nov 29, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> what, fucking 6 or 7 posts? you've the skin of a blancmange.


In fact your behaviour is worse. Like being just outside the circle as the kicks go in...occasionally sticking the boot in. At least I know the chief protagonists in this charm offensive. You on the otherhand I dont know. You ask me for a forensic breakdown of NR and other stuff nd I get shirty about it. Can you not see why. Just for the record...what is it YOU personally dont think is kosher about what I wrote. You will have to take my word ..it was fuck all to do with Searchlight. An accusation that was levelled at me and still is which is blatantly false. If you peddle that I will never even attempt to give you what you want...or is there another agenda


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## Pickman's model (Nov 29, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> In fact your behaviour is worse. Like being just outside the circle as the kicks go in...occasionally sticking out a boot in. At least I know the chief protagonists in this charm offensive. You on the otherhand I dont know. You ask me for a forensic breakdown of NR and other stuff nd I get shirty about it. Can you not see why. Just for the record...what is it YOU persoanlly dont thinks kosher about what I wrote. You will have to take my word ..it was fuck all to do with Searchlight. An accusation that was levelled at me and still is which is blatantly false. If you peddle that I will never even attempt to give you what you want...or is there another agenda


i've just asked whether the book's true. your reluctance to give a straight answer to a straight question doesn't fill me with confidence in the book's accuracy. yeh there's things in there that *could* have happened - all the stuff about bugging fash meetings, for example - but everyone knows that intelligence officers don't give away their tactics, techniques or procedures. if you do then the enemy gets wise to them. take for example the time when harry's place had a bit about how they tracked down the location of a pub the bnp used. since then the number of photos of socials and so on on bnp websites and blogs has delined significantly. so to me what's in nr doesn't ring true. is it true? or is it cobblers?


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## bignose1 (Nov 29, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> i've just asked whether the book's true. your reluctance to give a straight answer to a straight question doesn't fill me with confidence in the book's accuracy. yeh there's things in there that *could* have happened - all the stuff about bugging fash meetings, for example - but everyone knows that intelligence officers don't give away their tactics, techniques or procedures. if you do then the enemy gets wise to them. take for example the time when harry's place had a bit about how they tracked down the location of a pub the bnp used. since then the number of photos of socials and so on on bnp websites and blogs has delined significantly. so to me what's in nr doesn't ring true. is it true? or is it cobblers?


The bugging is bang on. I really can prove that and you can see/listen to it. And the bins and the guy inside, ask Redstorm hes seen a fair bit of stuff.The book has no false claims...yes it was a bit hoolie and I suppose I would have preferred another treatment but I stand by it. I also had differences with Dave but we were able to sort out something which I feel was worthwhile. Infact I left out a lot that would have as you say led to repurcussions for future work. You and the other people involved in this stuff against me have no idea what Ive been doing since I parted with Searchlight in 94. Believe me some of it has been very important in assisting the fight against fascism a lot of it abroad in places that really needed support. I found I could do a lot more offering my expertise without being answerable to organisations or otherwise. A method of working I will be expanding now Ive been made redundant. Can I just say it will be hard for me to get another job...a simple google is a lot faster than a CRB check. Also to add Im looking forward to being self reliant. Im not a fantasist Im a dedicated anti fascist who has seen how destructive fantasists and the like can be. Its up to you but if you want to see the hard evidence you will have to meet me. I think we should leave this thing alone for now on a public forum.


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## Red Storm (Nov 29, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> i've just asked whether the book's true. your reluctance to give a straight answer to a straight question doesn't fill me with confidence in the book's accuracy. yeh there's things in there that *could* have happened - all the stuff about bugging fash meetings, for example - but everyone knows that intelligence officers don't give away their tactics, techniques or procedures. if you do then the enemy gets wise to them. take for example the time when harry's place had a bit about how they tracked down the location of a pub the bnp used. since then the number of photos of socials and so on on bnp websites and blogs has delined significantly. so to me what's in nr doesn't ring true. is it true? or is it cobblers?


 
I can vouch for the bugging of fash meetings. I have heard the originals and have a number of copies of bugged Manchester and Salford BNP meetings from around the late 80s to the mid 90s.

I should really put them on the Anti-Fascist Archive


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## bignose1 (Nov 29, 2012)

Tell you what Pickmans.
List what you think is cobblers and Ill do a reply. Fuck it. Get going.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 29, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Tell you what Pickmans.
> List what you think is cobblers and Ill do a reply. Fuck it. Get going.


You've posted above 'the book has no false claims'. Ok. That's answered my question about the veracity of the claims.


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## audiotech (Nov 29, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> For those who cant add up. Im 55 next month...


 
Whippersnapper!

You're still young, so enjoy it.


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## framed (Nov 29, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Ok Pickmans Model. Name and full political CV.
> Top Cat Name and full political CV.
> Otherwise keep stum about what other cunts get up to...
> 
> ...Its called earning that right...!


 

That's just silly mate, calling people out to personally identify themselves is not proof of the correctness of your argument, nor is it proof that they have no personal CV _visa vie_ anti-fascism.

You have written your personal account of your involvement in anti-fascism via _No Retreat_. You stand or fall by that account. What you cannot expect is blind allegaiance and/or a complete acceptance of everything you and Dave said in NR.

That others do not seek to publish their memoirs is not evidence of them not being involved in the struggle. I just don't get the logic of calling people out like that? What purpose does it serve when they do not avail themselves of a publisher, other than to convince yourself that you are right and everyone else is wrong?

I don't find the personalisation of every argument about anti-fascism to be a satisfactory method of political debate.


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## framed (Nov 29, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> I can vouch for the bugging of fash meetings. I have heard the originals and have a number of copies of bugged Manchester and Salford BNP meetings from around the late 80s to the mid 90s.
> 
> I should really put them on the Anti-Fascist Archive


 
I can also vouch for Big Nose's bugging of fash meetings... I heard tapes of Manc BNP meetings that he'd bugged many years back.

Plus... he taught me how to go about it, which was a handy wee skill to pass on to other anti-fascists.


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## framed (Nov 29, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> Missed this for time round but it needs to be tackled before in hardens into urban myth, and I don't mean on here. This is the notion, soon to be paraded elsewhere I suspect, that eventually AFA faded away, and this was due in part to RA's beligerent approach. No basis in fact.
> 
> AFA was still growing when the BNP jacked. In fact that AFA was still _visibly_ growing particularly in places like the West Midlands (the last area to be organised following relaunch in '89) the whiteman's redoubt, was the key reason the BNP swerved away from street confrontation. Accordingly the lazy allegation that 'so many activists eventually found RA in particular hard to work with', is once again found to be without foundation.
> 
> ...


 

It's also the case that AFA in different areas and regions 'wound down' in parallel with the local fash's appetite for continued street activities, which wasn't necessarily at the same pace as London. The BNP had given up the streets, but the acceptance of this policy was sometimes uneven, depending upon how enthusiastically particular regions had embraced the new strategy, or had been previously reliant on street elements. On the whole though, the BNP were disciplined and most of their streetfighting element had been sidelined by 1998, although there were still occasional skirmishes.

It is, therefore, a complete fiction to suggest that AFA left the battlefield before the fash, because AFA activists in some areas were required for another couple of years to gently persuade the BNP that the jig was up.


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## ayatollah (Nov 29, 2012)

framed said:


> That's just silly mate, calling people out to personally identify themselves is not proof of the correctness of your argument, nor is it proof that they have no personal CV _visa vie_ anti-fascism.
> 
> You have written your personal account of your involvement in anti-fascism via _No Retreat_. You stand or fall by that account.
> 
> That others do not seek to publish their memoirs is not evidence of them not being involved in the struggle. I just don't get the logic of calling people out like that? What purpose does it serve when they do not avail themselves of a publisher, other than to convince yourself that you are right and everyone else is wrong?


 
Bignose1 has a perfectly understandable issue here with the many posters who have over the years abused him over his record, mainly his work with Searchlight, but also the veracity of the overall account in NR. Given that some accusers/critics of Bignose1 have themselves got excellent past records in the anti fascist struggle, their views quite rightly deserve some attention and consideration. Others though are just people who like a good witchhunt,and a windup, but have no record of struggle at all. These people simply aren't owed any sort of explanation or justification from an anti fascist with a considerable history like Bignose1. Sorry, but they just aren't. Who gives a fuck what they think.

I can testify that the overall picture in NR of the anti fascist struggle is a very accurate one. Not every event is 100% clinically accurate (from my aged recollections) in terms of exact personnel or detail happenings, but how could they be after so many years ? And obviously the interpretation of events, particularly with Searchlight and the end period/dispute surrounding AFA is massively coloured by competing viewpoints. Holding either set of positions doesn't automatically make either of the "sides" pure evil though. It was just specific political/organisational dispute - with all the " unfortunate things said that can never be unsaid by now ex comrades" issues that bedevil the Left. We all need to move on.

I think when Bignose1 asks for an indication from persistant critics like Pickman of what his own participation in the anti fascist struggle might have been, or not, a simple statement like "10 years in RA, arrested 3 times, present at such and such a known event", or whatever, would suffice , not a detailed CV. Or of course " never been in a physical confrontation situation with fascists at any time.. I just sit in front of my computer abusing olde anti fascists". With our adopted aliases which one it is is just unknown. "None of his business" you might say ? Well if that's true,I say, " just fuck off and dont deign to query or call out Bignose on his considerable anti fascist record".


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## Pickman's model (Nov 29, 2012)

ayatollah said:


> Bignose1 has a perfectly understandable issue here with the many posters who have over the years abused him over his record, mainly his work with Searchlight, but also the veracity of the overall account in NR. Given that some accusers/critics of Bignose1 have themselves got excellent past records in the anti fascist struggle, their views quite rightly deserve some attention and consideration. Others though are just people who like a good witchhunt,and a windup, but have no record of struggle at all. These people simply aren't owed any sort of explanation or justification from an anti fascist with a considerable history like Bignose1. Sorry, but they just aren't. Who gives a fuck what they think.
> 
> I can testify that the overall picture in NR of the anti fascist struggle is a very accurate one. Not every event is 100% clinically accurate (from my aged recollections) in terms of exact personnel or detail happenings, but how could they be after so many years ? And obviously the interpretation of events, particularly with Searchlight and the end period/dispute surrounding AFA is massively coloured by competing viewpoints. Holding either set of positions doesn't automatically make either of the "sides" pure evil though. It was just specific political/organisational dispute - with all the " unfortunate things said that can never be unsaid by now ex comrades" issues that bedevil the Left. We all need to move on.
> 
> I think when Bignose1 asks for an indication from persistant critics like Pickman of what his own participation in the anti fascist struggle might have been, or not, a simple statement like "10 years in RA, arrested 3 times, present at such and such a known event", or whatever, would suffice , not a detailed CV. Or of course " never been in a physical confrontation situation with fascists at any time.. I just sit in front of my computer abusing olde anti fascists". With our adopted aliases which one it is is just unknown. "None of his business" you might say ? Well if that's true,I say, " just fuck off and dont deem to query or call out Bignose on his considerable anti fascist record".


what does 'don't deem to query or call out bignose' mean? it doesn't make sense. do you in fact know what deem means?


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## framed (Nov 29, 2012)

ayatollah said:


> Bignose1 has a perfectly understandable issue here with the many posters who have over the years abused him over his record, mainly his work with Searchlight, but also the veracity of the overall account in NR. Given that some accusers/critics of Bignose1 have themselves got excellent past records in the anti fascist struggle, their views quite rightly deserve some attention and consideration. Others though are just people who like a good witchhunt,and a windup, but have no record of struggle at all. These people simply aren't owed any sort of explanation or justification from an anti fascist with a considerable history like Bignose1. Sorry, but they just aren't. Who gives a fuck what they think.
> 
> I can testify that the overall picture in NR of the anti fascist struggle is a very accurate one. Not every event is 100% clinically accurate (from my aged recollections) in terms of exact personnel or detail happenings, but how could they be after so many years ? And obviously the interpretation of events, particularly with Searchlight and the end period/dispute surrounding AFA is massively coloured by competing viewpoints. Holding either set of positions doesn't automatically make either of the "sides" pure evil though. It was just specific political/organisational dispute - with all the " unfortunate things said that can never be unsaid by now ex comrades" issues that bedevil the Left. We all need to move on.
> 
> I think when Bignose1 asks for an indication from persistant critics like Pickman of what his own participation in the anti fascist struggle might have been, or not, a simple statement like "10 years in RA, arrested 3 times, present at such and such a known event", or whatever, would suffice , not a detailed CV. Or of course " never been in a physical confrontation situation with fascists at any time.. I just sit in front of my computer abusing olde anti fascists". With our adopted aliases which one it is is just unknown. "None of his business" you might say ? Well if that's true,I say, " just fuck off and dont deem to query or call out Bignose on his considerable anti fascist record".


 

How do you know this Ayatollah, that this thread is populated to any extent by _ "...people who like a good witchhunt, and a windup, but have no record of struggle at all." ???_

I didn't know who the fcuk you were (_and why should I?_) until I made offline enquiries. Your contribution to the anti-fascist struggle probably ended as mine's began, so how do you know _who's who_ here and which are the right 'uns and wrong 'uns? And, given that you were not active during Hann's period of political activity, how can you _"..testify that the overall picture in NR of the anti fascist struggle is a very accurate one." ???_

_No Retreat_ contains the personal accounts of two individual anti-fascists, one of whom goes back to the original squads, the other with AFA. IMHO it bears little comparison politically with the more objective accounts contained in Beating The Fascists. _No Retreat_ falls into the _'hooli-porn'_ genre precisely because it is subjective, personal and less political than the wider ranging BTF. That's not to say that it's not a good read, but it is not a definitive account of AFA's political work. Rather it is the subjective account of two individuals and their approximation of what they believed their personal roles to be within the respective organisations. And, as such, it opens itself up to challenge and criticism because of its subjectivity. The vast majority of the criticism of NR has been leveled at Dave Hann's 'half' of the book. There have been criticisms of some of Big Nose's version of events, but there has also been an acknowledgement of his role as an anti-fascist and former squad member. What cannot be overcome is the general mistrust that existed between AFA and Searchlight, for whom BN1 worked until the mid-1990's, after his involvement with the squad.

As a former member of the national committees of both Red Action and AFA, I believe that there was a case to answer with regard to Hann. I have no reason to doubt the outcome of the enquiry into Dave's activities and, despite regarding him as a personal friend, I voted for his expulsion from both RA and AFA. His personal position was untenable, which should be obvious to anyone with even a modicum of understanding of the situation.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 29, 2012)

ayatollah said:


> I think when Bignose1 asks for an indication from persistant critics like Pickman of what his own participation in the anti fascist struggle might have been, or not, a simple statement like "10 years in RA, arrested 3 times, present at such and such a known event", or whatever, would suffice , not a detailed CV. Or of course " never been in a physical confrontation situation with fascists at any time.. I just sit in front of my computer abusing olde anti fascists". With our adopted aliases which one it is is just unknown. "None of his business" you might say ? Well if that's true,I say, " just fuck off and dont deem to query or call out Bignose on his considerable anti fascist record".


i was never in ra. i knew one or two people who were back in the day, and have met more since: all of them sound. much of what i've been involved with went on long after you decided to call it a day.

but why the fuck should i provide details for the likes of you, when it seems you won't for anyone else?


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## LiamO (Nov 29, 2012)

ayatollah said:


> a simple statement like "10 years in RA, *arrested 3 times*, present at such and such a known event",


 
Sometimes, getting nicked may have been an occupational hazard but the harsh truth is that it was usually (including in yours and bignose's case for Rochdale) because of impulsiveness/impetuosity and more of a sign of stupidity, of losing the run of yourself and of failure than something to boast about. That is not to judge or denigrate anybody who did get nicked (and fair play to those who did the jail) it's just the truth.

I was always proud of the exceptionally low rate of arrests for RA people (save for one or two repeat offenders/banker bets)... of the ability of people to calmly walk from a scene of mayhem without attracting the attention of OB whose peripheral vision was attuned to detect casualties (that can't fight back) and runners. Some of the fraggle rockers on the other hand ... they wore arrests like medals... and were useful idiots because of this.

I did 10 years in and around RA... was present at many large and small battles and am happy to report I was never arrested (except once for drunken buffoonery many hours after the political activity).


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## LiamO (Nov 29, 2012)

ayatollah said:


> Others though are just people who like a good witchhunt,and a windup, but have no record of struggle at all.


 
behave yourself FFS 

Firstly, you have NO way of knowing if this is the case or not. None.

Secondly, it makes you sound like one of those terminally boring ex-servicemen... 'What did you do in the war, eh? Nothing, that's what! Sat here on your arses while me and the lads was in the trenches... blah blah'. To extend this logic I would have no right to comment on Afghanistan or Iraq because I am not a veteran. Dangerous road, that one.

Thirdly, it just looks like willy-waving.


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## plug ugly (Nov 30, 2012)

Funny how people give it ten-nil on here when if youse were having a pint itd be a fairly civilised discussion trying to work it out.


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## LiamO (Nov 30, 2012)

plug ugly said:


> Funny how people give it ten-nil on here when if youse were having a pint itd be a fairly civilised discussion trying to work it out.


 
How little you know  

Having said that there is nobody on this thread with whom I personally could not share a  polite conversation and a nice cup of tea (apart from 'Sumud' who, I suspect, is somebody else's very dark alter ego).


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## malatesta32 (Nov 30, 2012)

both books are valuable for different reasons, morale boosts, documentation, propaganda etc. both books will be/can be criticised by others. this is what happens with books as they are in the public domain. every writer expects this. there are few enough books on militant anti-fascism as it is. did i mention mine?


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## LiamO (Nov 30, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> there are few enough books on militant anti-fascism as it is. did i mention mine?


 
You are writing a book?!? 

tell us more...


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## Citizen66 (Nov 30, 2012)

malatesta32 said:
			
		

> both books are valuable for different reasons, morale boosts, documentation, propaganda etc. both books will be/can be criticised by others. this is what happens with books as they are in the public domain. every writer expects this. there are few enough books on militant anti-fascism as it is. did i mention mine?



I hope you've included content that will upset the witch hunters and windup merchants.


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## LiamO (Nov 30, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> I hope you've included content that will upset the witch hunters and windup merchants.


 
... and those sitting, somewhat incongruously, astride the moral high horse.


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## DaveCinzano (Nov 30, 2012)

LiamO said:


> ... and those sitting, somewhat incongruously, astride the moral high horse.


Or the fence. The high horse fence. Let's call it Becher's Brook!


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## LiamO (Nov 30, 2012)

DaveCinzano said:


> Or the fence. The high horse fence. Let's call it Becher's Brook!


 
or even Bitcher's...


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## malatesta32 (Nov 30, 2012)

LiamO said:


> You are writing a book?!?
> 
> tell us more...


hey liam i am using a bunch of yr stuff, esp GLC thing and others. i can send you the chunks if you want to okay them 1st!


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## LiamO (Nov 30, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> hey liam i am using a bunch of yr stuff, esp GLC thing and others. i can send you the chunks if you want to okay them 1st!


 
like I asked you to when you asked if it was OK to use them you mean?  Yes, that would be nice. Plenty more tales of finding humour amongst the blood and snot (otherwise known as Uncle Albert moments) too.


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## malatesta32 (Nov 30, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> I hope you've included content that will upset the witch hunters and windup merchants.


 
blimey, i have been very cautious. although the book is obviously pro-AFA and follows the physical and ideological resistance line, it is more a documentation of events than a critique of the history of militant anti-fascism. it lays out the case for it and explains that it is only 1 part of anti-fascism and only useful in certain times. like now, its pretty hard to do so other tactics come into play, like mass blocking has been extremely successful recently in brighton, bristol and walthers!


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## manny-p (Nov 30, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> blimey


skank


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## bignose1 (Nov 30, 2012)

Anthony David Jones from Ashton under Lyne supplies Redwatch with information and has consistently for over 40 years been doing similar stuff on behalf of a number of organisations. I know he reads this forum so Im letting him know that Im putting online shortly some of the 'intel'which was obtained a number of years ago. It'll cause a few ripples in quite a few circles non more so than his chums in Northwestnationalists.


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## Deareg (Nov 30, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Anthony David Jones from Ashton under Lyne supplies Redwatch with information and has consistently for over 40 years been doing similar stuff on behalf of a number of organisations. I know he reads this forum so Im letting him know that Im putting online shortly some of the 'intel'which was obtained a number of years ago. It'll cause a few ripples in quite a few circles non more so than his chums in Northwestnationalists.


Hiya ADJ!!! You were the first Fascist I ever twatted.


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## DaveCinzano (Nov 30, 2012)

Cherry Popper Smurf


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## sumud (Dec 1, 2012)

I was quite happy to retire from this piss fest until my dear honest name was raised. Please do not make me post love stories about Gary and Gable, Drug Dealers in Manchester or even wee stevy and the German missing cash.


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## Larry O'Hara (Dec 1, 2012)

sumud said:


> I was quite happy to retire from this piss fest until my dear honest name was raised. Please do not make me post love stories about Gary and Gable, Drug Dealers in Manchester or even wee stevy and the German missing cash.


 
please do if you think it might entertain us all


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## LiamO (Dec 1, 2012)

sumud said:


> I was quite happy to retire from this piss fest until my dear honest name was raised. Please do not make me post love stories about Gary and Gable, Drug Dealers in Manchester or even wee stevy and the German missing cash.


 
'dear honest name'... I nearly choked laughing at this.

In the immortal words of Brendan Gleason's character in 'In Bruges'




I am undecided if you are MrX or you are the buffoon who called Gary O'Shea an 'armchair general' (oh how I LOL'd) at a public event in Belfast. Either way you are a wrong'un and, indeed, a cunt.


Pony up... or fuck off...


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## Demu (Dec 1, 2012)

ayatollah said:


> Bignose1 has a perfectly understandable issue here with the many posters who have over the years abused him over his record, mainly his work with Searchlight, but also the veracity of the overall account in NR. Given that some accusers/critics of Bignose1 have themselves got excellent past records in the anti fascist struggle, their views quite rightly deserve some attention and consideration. Others though are just people who like a good witchhunt,and a windup, but have no record of struggle at all. These people simply aren't owed any sort of explanation or justification from an anti fascist with a considerable history like Bignose1. Sorry, but they just aren't. Who gives a fuck what they think.
> 
> I can testify that the overall picture in NR of the anti fascist struggle is a very accurate one. Not every event is 100% clinically accurate (from my aged recollections) in terms of exact personnel or detail happenings, but how could they be after so many years ? And obviously the interpretation of events, particularly with Searchlight and the end period/dispute surrounding AFA is massively coloured by competing viewpoints. Holding either set of positions doesn't automatically make either of the "sides" pure evil though. It was just specific political/organisational dispute - with all the " unfortunate things said that can never be unsaid by now ex comrades" issues that bedevil the Left. We all need to move on.
> 
> I think when Bignose1 asks for an indication from persistant critics like Pickman of what his own participation in the anti fascist struggle might have been, or not, a simple statement like "10 years in RA, arrested 3 times, present at such and such a known event", or whatever, would suffice , not a detailed CV. Or of course " never been in a physical confrontation situation with fascists at any time.. I just sit in front of my computer abusing olde anti fascists". With our adopted aliases which one it is is just unknown. "None of his business" you might say ? Well if that's true,I say, " just fuck off and dont deem to query or call out Bignose on his considerable anti fascist record".


 

There are a couple of issues here, firstly, do people have the right to challenge regardless of their own political CV ? Of course they do. If Tilzey had applied the same parameters to his co-author as he now does to posters on here, he would never have co-written his book with Hann.  

So before anyone asks, I did 10 plus years in ANL, AFA, Manchester followed by 10 plus years AFA, Red Action, London & South East as an organizer and street activist, have copped numerous arrests, some convictions and some acquittals. I have worked with most of the declared players who post on here during that time. I trust this meets the 'bignose criteria' for posting on this subject. My views on Bignose are set out in post 586 and have not altered despite the incoherent personal bile which my posts seem to attract from Bignose.

 Secondly what is the purpose of publishing militant anti fascist history. If it is to set down events as seen through the eyes of the participants for the benefit of others who follow, then it has to be authentic. Likewise if the history is a fabrication then what is its purpose other than to mislead and misdirect? Inevitably the wrong conclusions will be drawn from an erroneous history.

So is No Retreat authentic. Tilzeys version is, Hanns version is not. I believe this was the point of JR previous post. Whilst Tilzey could well have written his own story over the whole period covered by NR, he chose not to, preferring instead to sail under the AFA /Red Action/Hann banner rather than the Searchight banner for the period in question.

A brief synopsis of Manchester AFA would read as follows. It was formed in 1985, and was still going strong in 1990, witness events at Stockport (1985) and Swinging Sporran (Jan 1990) which highlight an existing AFA network with an extremely capable street capacity throughout. Manchester was arguably the strongest AFA branch outside London and was independent of Red Action, although there had been a very good working relationship over many years.  AFA was relaunched in Manchester in 1991 by the newly formed Red Action branch. 

Dave Hann after falsely claiming he moved to Manchester in 1987 assessed the situation then as follows  ‘There was almost nothing going on. As a consequence of all this inactivity there was also no permanent anti-fascist organisation. The AFA group that had smashed up the NF in 1985 had faded into oblivion as the anti fascsists became victims of their own success and succumbed to the twin lures of family life and careers. Only a couple of individuals remained active and even these were semi retired’ (No Retreat pages 125, 126) 

To accommodate Dave Hann’ political CV as outlined in No Retreat as credible, you have to delete 3 years of authentic Manchester AFA history. See post 642 for a fuller account of AFA history during this period. Likewise the Swinging Sporran gig, organized by Hann in 1990, is omitted from No Retreat because it disproves his argument that Manchester AFA was politically dead in 1987.

 Hann’s involvement in the mugging is no longer a matter of dispute. The only unknowns are how many other muggings took place before they were caught and whether the victim’s sexuality was co-incidence or not. The location of the attack would indicate not. 

The legal challenge to Beating the Fascists and their publishers was a further attempt to censor authentic history to maintain the hoax political CV of Dave Hann in No Retreat. Following disclosure of the witness accounts to Hann’s involvement in the mugging and subsequent trial, alongside detailing the erroneous nature of Hann’s CV in No Retreat, to Messrs Carter Ruck, representing Louise Purdrick, the matter was no longer contested by them.

Perhaps the reason that Bignose attracts criticism, is that despite knowing all of the above to be true, he co-wrote NR with Hann, and continues to claim on this forum that the above is a conspiracy of lies perpetrated by a few twisted souls. Whilst Tilzeys story stands up, Hann’s does not and Tilzey was party to the collaboration that required the removal of authentic working class militant anti fascist history (not Red Action’s) to accommodate Hann’s fraudulent Red Action CV.


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## ayatollah (Dec 1, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> what does 'don't deem to query or call out bignose' mean? it doesn't make sense. do you in fact know what deem means?


Well spotted Pickman .. a simple misstype on my part .. the word intended was "deign" ("condescend to do -( patronizingly)" ) . as in.... "condescend to".. question or challenge Bignose1. Good.. that's out of the way then... Next  question......


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## malatesta32 (Dec 1, 2012)

Demu, you sound very well placed to write something on Manchester AFA etc. is this a possibility? there isnt enough of it. 

'publishing militant anti fascist history ... to set down events as seen through the eyes of the participants for the benefit of others who follow'


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## ayatollah (Dec 1, 2012)

Demu said:


> There are a couple of issues here, firstly, do people have the right to challenge regardless of their own political CV ? Of course they do. If Tilzey had applied the same parameters to his co-author as he now does to posters on here, he would never have co-written his book with Hann.
> 
> So before anyone asks, I did 10 plus years in ANL, AFA, Manchester followed by 10 plus years AFA, Red Action, London & South East as an organizer and street activist, have copped numerous arrests, some convictions and some acquittals. I have worked with most of the declared players who post on here during that time. I trust this meets the 'bignose criteria' for posting on this subject. My views on Bignose are set out in post 586 and have not altered despite the incoherent personal bile which my posts seem to attract from Bignose.
> 
> ...


 
Yeh, quite right, I was trying to be diplomatic, Demu,(always a mistake.. and sooo unlike me) to avoid the usual "Hann issue" from erupting again on this thread , when I said "the overall picture in NR of the anti fascist struggle is a very accurate one". Yep, "the anti fascist struggle.... not the detail of exactly what happened in manchester etc on such and such a date" . It's , in my view, still a ripping, highly, accessible, anti fascist propaganda work.. not hard history. I still think it's a good book though, just as that. I also think its a shame Tilzey didn't stick to his own account. I of course have no direct knowledge of the post 1987 era, other than what you and others have told me. I still can't see why , this far forward in time , the account of the breakup of AFA in NR still rankles so much. But then I wasn't there, so it's always easy to float above it all when one wasn't involved.

I'm not sure that the myriad of anti fascists who have done time/ been arrested whilst fighting fascism will be too happy with your statement Liam0:

"Sometimes, getting nicked may have been an occupational hazard but the harsh truth is that it was usually (including in yours and bignose's case for Rochdale) because of impulsiveness/impetuosity and more of a sign of stupidity, of losing the run of yourself and of failure than something to boast about. That is not to judge or denigrate anybody who did get nicked (and fair play to those who did the jail) it's just the truth".

Only the impulsive/ impetuous, stupid, and out of control , "usually" got arrested ? No denigration or judgementalism there then. This is an extraordinary thing for an anti fascist to have written,Liam0.


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## LiamO (Dec 1, 2012)

ayatollah said:


> Only the impulsive/ impetuous, stupid, and out of control , "usually" got arrested ? No denigration or judgementalism there then. This is an extraordinary thing for an anti fascist to have written,Liam0.


 
It certainly would have been.... had I written it. And yes you are quite right. There is _no_ denigration and _no_ 'judgementalism' here. Not a single iota.

Don't be such a drama queen Ayatollah. I was just pointing out that using arrests as a metric of anti-fascist credentials is plain daft. I have the greatest of respect for those who did jail for anti-fascist activity. But my statement is essentially true.

In order for those arrests to be worth it, it is necessary for everybody - inside and out - to critically analyse and to learn from the mistakes. I am struggling to think of an example of arrests where there was nothing to learn and where wiser action at crucial moments could not have made a critical difference. I would be happy to provide plenty of examples once we have gotten the thorny issue of my intent (and you have chosen to read it) out of the way.

I am personally impetuous. I often benefited from the timely intervention of the wiser heads of comrades in both political and social settings to save me from a nicking.

Even the most experienced players were not exempt from doing impulsive, daft things. Take Joe Reilly... years of getting away with taking part in and organising mass mayhem... no nickings. One daft, impetuous interaction with a copper (in a totally non-political arena IIRC) and he gets the jail (which, ironically, actually benefited AFA hugely in the long term).

I can think of several occasions when he saved me and many others from a similar fate with a timely intervention. That's because he possesses, as I am sure you do when you are calm, the self-honesty to admit an error of judgement, to learn from it and to apply the experience for the benefit of his comrades.


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## LiamO (Dec 1, 2012)

Oi Malatesta. Never mind 'liking' Ayatollahs post and moving on...

if you don't like what I wrote, or if my intent is unclear to you - ask some questions. I will be happy to answer them.


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## ayatollah (Dec 1, 2012)

LiamO said:


> It certainly would have been.... had I written it. And yes you are quite right. There is no denigration or 'judgementalism' here. Not a single iota.
> 
> Don't be such a drama queen Ayatollah. I was just pointing out that using arrests as a metric of anti-fascist credentials is plain daft. I have the greatest of respect for those who did jail for anti-fascist activity. But my statement is essentially true.
> 
> ...


 


I was providing an off the cuff example of a theoretical stripped down one line "CV" that someone could use to meet the "Bignose1 test" of being an "activist" rather than an " armchair critic", when I threw in "arrests" as an example of a possible sample  of key events from a person's personal anti fascist record. The fact remains that your contention that most nickings are the result of personal failings by the anti fascist arrested, is intentionally or unintentionally, deeply insulting to every anti fascist who has ever been nicked. Sorry,but  it just is:

"Sometimes, getting nicked may have been an occupational hazard but the harsh truth is that it was usually (including in yours and bignose's case for Rochdale) because of impulsiveness/impetuosity and more of a sign of stupidity, of losing the run of yourself and of failure than something to boast about. That is not to judge or denigrate anybody who did get nicked (and fair play to those who did the jail) it's just the truth".

There are all sorts of reasons for getting nicked as an anti fascist, because it is indeed "just an occupational hazard of the activity" .... from random bad luck on the day when a copper picks you out,  being repeatedly right in the front line of combat, being heavily outnumbered, etc. But the main thing is, the more active an anti fascist is, and  the longer he's active,   the more likely he is to get nicked. The only guarantee  of avoiding nickings  as an  anti fascist.. is to retire and stay away from the danger zones.  Personal stupidity, ill discipline, bad pre-planning, etc, are indeed  sometimes reasons for getting nicked, but  aren't really high on the list of reasons for either being nicked or doing time in my considerable  experience.

 I don't know what it was like in your day, Liam0, but in mine we had a golden principle.. to respond to requests for help from comrades without question or delay. It often led to false alarms, and sometimes to cock ups, both in terms of near misses with the cops, or  meeting up with much larger numbers of fascists too. It was a principle that saved many a comrade from a kicking though.  That's why 9 of us (only 5 being Squadists - the others the IS Students who asked for help on the night - plus the provocateur)) were unlucky enough to fall into a long term trap set by a remarkably scheming fantasist IS Society student  nutter  at Manchester Poly, leading to the well known cock up  in Rochdale,  and prison. Not the first time our "respond to cries for help first, consider later", principle had got us into trouble. But it was the way we built a mutual, unswerving,  Squad loyalty and determination that saw our remarkably small numbers in Manchester able to hammer the fascists across  the North west.  So spare me the "stupidity" and "impetuousness" jibe. Because it is simply a jibe.  Your lack of arrests is entirely down to level-headedness and not doing "daft things"  on the day is it , Liam0 ?    More like pure luck I would suggest.  I know from Demu, that you are an OK bloke , so good luck is all it can be down to. Just be grateful to Lady Luck . Liam0, and lay off the "you got arrested from stupidity" crap, eh..


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## bignose1 (Dec 1, 2012)

LiamO said:


> It certainly would have been.... had I written it. And yes you are quite right. There is no denigration or 'judgementalism' here. Not a single iota.
> 
> Don't be such a drama queen Ayatollah. I was just pointing out that using arrests as a metric of anti-fascist credentials is plain daft. I have the greatest of respect for those who did jail for anti-fascist activity. But my statement is essentially true.
> 
> ...


LiamO's post made me think quite closely about the nickings Ive had ..the near nickings and the possibility of any in the future and Id say that apart from maybe the Rochdale one (which Demu missed by a whisker) Id usually been very careful andI dont think its fair in what you say.

Ill bring on fellow comrade Demu who a while back on this thread referred to an incident when Roy M hit me from behind whilst I was driving a minibus and is obvious by the way he brought it up thought it was really ok. The amount of times certain people made excuses for lumpen undiscplined behaviour from within was fucking no end. but because they were deemed by the hierarchy as something special it was ignored. Same when DN 'bitch' slapped me in Belfast...thats ok Gary is it. That was a time when we were all ok as well...but not a fucking peep infact someone was heard to say I asked for it. ( I didnt go to the bar !) All Sycophantic bollocks.

Getting back to the point LiamO the reluctance to take chances often resulted in being labelled a coward. Fact. It happened. So lessons about driving vans on the look out for fash shouldnt be learned? And the fact there was an old bill van a few cars back didnt seem to matter. But then it was the top boys wasnt it. Fucking hate that bollox and it was synonomous with the posturing around certain people/types.

The same ideology the Kemps/Dyers and McIntyres of this world adopt when doing programmes on underworld figures. To this end the crimes attributed to DH pale into insignificance to what certain people inflicted on the communities of Manchester and elsewhere and is something to there shame. Unfortunately its only too real to the victims and their families. Utter hypocricy.


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## LiamO (Dec 1, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> LiamO's post made me think quite closely about the nickings Ive had .. the near nickings and the possibility of any in the future and Id say that apart from maybe the Rochdale one (which Demu missed by a whisker)...


 
You might want to edit the rest of that in the morning mate, to make it more intelligible... and some white space would not go amiss.

Just for the novelty, why don't we stick to the point in hand. Did you read my post which set Ayatollah off as an attack on you... the way he read it as an attack on him?


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## LiamO (Dec 1, 2012)

ayatollah said:


> The fact remains that your contention that most nickings are the result of personal failings by the anti fascist arrested,


 
I never said that. That is how you have chosen to read it.

What I did say is that IME the vast majority of nickings were preceded at some point by an act (however well intentioned) of impulsiveness or impetuosity. You state as much in your post re; Rochdale. That may make uncomfortable reading for you but it is my truth.

Sometimes (often actually now I think of it) the first impulsive act was not made by the people actually lifted (I am speaking generally here, not of your case).

My post cast no aspersions on the honesty of intent, or indeed the individual and collective bravery of the individuals arrested. None.



ayatollah said:


> is intentionally or unintentionally, deeply insulting to every anti fascist who has ever been nicked. Sorry,but it just is:


 
No. That is just your selective and subjective interpretation of what I said. I am sorry you read it that way but your reading _is_ erroneous and I am happy to clarify my intent.

Your impassioned plea on behalf of Tilz led you to use an utterly useless and stupid measure (arrests) of an activists _bona fides_. I pointed that out. You took the hump.

I, personally, was never arrested on a political activity. Big fuckin deal. I draw _no_ inference from that. None. (other than I was lucky and even luckier to be surrounded by collective experience). Bizarrely, YOU are the person attempting to foist inference onto my statement via your mind-reading.

Equally the number of times somebody _was_ lifted gives no clue as to the circumstances. That is why it is a totally useless metric. That is what I pointed out. Given that my whole point is that arrests are no measure of anything - and that to use arrest figures in this way was essentially willy-waving... it would make absolutely no sense for me to then engage in willy-waving of my own.

You have chosen to interpret my stating this an assertion of some mystical superiority... and continue to attack me for what you feel is _implicit._.. despite my _explicitly_ stating that you are mis-reading my posts.

Frankly I am surprised a man of your undoubted intelligence can remain emotionally hijacked like this. I look forward to re-engaging with you climb down off your moral high-horse and become rational once more.


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## bignose1 (Dec 2, 2012)

LiamO said:


> You might want to edit the rest of that in the morning mate, to make it more intelligible... and some white space would not go amiss.
> 
> Just for the novelty, why don't we stick to the point in hand. Did you read my post which set Ayatollah off as an attack on you... the way he read it as an attack on him?


Liam thanks for the tip about the gaps...now corrected. But more intelligible?. My point may have drifted but it was meant to add to the debate about certain behaviours and their consequencies.


----------



## malatesta32 (Dec 2, 2012)

LiamO said:


> Oi Malatesta. Never mind 'liking' Ayatollahs post and moving on...
> 
> if you don't like what I wrote, or if my intent is unclear to you - ask some questions. I will be happy to answer them.


 
i was 'okaying' the use of diplomacy (he said diplomatically) cos i hate all this infighting and slagging. tis undignified!


----------



## Sue (Dec 2, 2012)

Don't know if this has already been mentioned, but anyone read this:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bloody-Nasty-People-Britains-Right/dp/1844679594

Just saw it on a bookstall and had a very quick flick. Interesting to note that AFA aren't mentioned in the index. Still Owen Jones is quoted on the front cover as saying it's 'authoritative'.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 2, 2012)

Sue said:


> Don't know if this has already been mentioned, but anyone read this:
> 
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bloody-Nasty-People-Britains-Right/dp/1844679594
> 
> Just saw it on a bookstall and had a very quick flick. Interesting to note that AFA aren't mentioned in the index. Still Owen Jones is quoted on the front cover as saying it's 'authoritative'.


 
Apparently no one is allowed to criticise Owen Jones's opinions.

Not surprised AFA aren't mentioned lets face it for bourgeois and liberal anti fascism AFA went about things in the wrong way!


----------



## malatesta32 (Dec 2, 2012)

it seems to be part of the revisionist history, the likes of searchlight, lowles, goodwin etc writing AFA out. i read the recent goodwin the new british extremists one which i didnt think was much cop at all. this is why militant antifascists have to take charge to creat our own narratives. did i mention my book ...


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Dec 2, 2012)

Beating The Fascists is mentioned in the Trilling book. I think there is a thread on it in the books sub forum.

But yeah it is very much a Verso/New Statesman type take on the BNP.


----------



## malatesta32 (Dec 2, 2012)

ah right, cheers fozzie. most of the stuff i have been going thru recently - apart from BTF - is pretty unrivetting stuff.


----------



## Sue (Dec 2, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> ....did i mention my book ...


 
Book, what book...?


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 2, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> it seems to be part of the revisionist history, the likes of searchlight, lowles, goodwin etc writing AFA out. i read the recent goodwin the new british extremists one which i didnt think was much cop at all. this is why militant antifascists have to take charge to creat our own narratives. did i mention my book ...


 
Data wise as an insight into who votes for the BNP and their political strategy Goodwins book is invaluable imo


----------



## Sue (Dec 2, 2012)

The search function is my friend -- book's discussed from here onwards:

http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/what-now-for-the-bnp.287021/page-25

They don't say I've my finger on the pulse for nothing...


----------



## malatesta32 (Dec 2, 2012)

i got an excellent breakdown of the core membership of the BNP in Sociology journal (issue 1, vol 45). surprisingly useful!


----------



## bignose1 (Dec 2, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> it seems to be part of the revisionist history, the likes of searchlight, lowles, goodwin etc writing AFA out. i read the recent goodwin the new british extremists one which i didnt think was much cop at all. this is why militant antifascists have to take charge to creat our own narratives. did i mention my book ...


Is NR......NO.....Searchlighty spoily dont thinky so


----------



## bignose1 (Dec 2, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Is NR......NO.....Searchlighty spoily dont thinky so


Sorry mal I meant ever referenced in any of these other books....or even once mentioned/reviewed/wanked over by S/light/HnH/blah blah....or other 'establishment' outfits?...nay laddie!.


----------



## malatesta32 (Dec 2, 2012)

i wd have thought NR wd be completely ignored by the likes of goodwin etc. i certainly dont think NR writes AFA out of history, on the contrary, it places AFA right in the middle of things (copsey quotes NR in 1 of his books i think). this is why it is important. like ive said loads, there aint enough militant history out there and it all needs documenting either in the more complex process of book form, the AFA archive or personal testament. there is a new generation of AFers and they need to know their history. class dismissed!


----------



## Joe Reilly (Dec 7, 2012)

ayatollah said:


> I of course have no direct knowledge of the post 1987 era, other than what you and others have told me. I still can't see why , this far forward in time , the account of the breakup of AFA in NR still rankles so much.


 
Perhaps the primary reason the 'break up of AFA' in No Retreat rankles is that there was no such break up. It was an entirely political confabulation designed to meet the personal needs of one of the authors. To that end in numerous interviews thereafter the founder members were denounced by him as 'cowards who had betrayed the anti-fascist movement'. AFA is itself traduced for failing to drive the far-right from the streets as was its intention and thus quitting the struggle prematurely. Both bang-out lies.

As many on here will testify the real narrative is covered only in BTF (which faced sutained threats of legal action as soon as it found a publisher) and faces the situation now where the real version of events is likely to be trumped by 'No Retreat with a Vengeance' where presumably the arguments advanced by Hann in his first book will be finessed in order to maintain the fiction that Hann was a key AFA/ANL/Squad (?) founding member brought low by lesser mortals for entirely 'sectarian' reasons, thus allowing the BNP a free run. Or to put it another way, AFA failed. AFA lost. What message does that send young would be militants?

As Demu puts it, history is there to inform. If it deliberately misinforms, if it sets out to smear the lens, it is not history. And when its gets it retaliation in first, the inevitable result is deep rancour between the opposing viewpoints and certain degree of confusion amongst near everyone else.
One product of the confusion, and which adds considerably to it, is the depiction of the disagreement as a 'spat' of interest to only a tiny number of individuals. As if the discussion for what of a better word has no resonance outside of this forum. The conclusion and indeed considerable comfort that will be drawn from that line by some, (step forward Professor Purbick) is that the historical _truth_ is also of interest to only a tiny number, and that being the case we are all free to create our own history.

Infamously, accounts from the ANL, Socialist Party and Searchlight have already for example, in covering the period in question (early 80'sto late 1990's) omitted AFA entirely. A photograpical history of resistance to fascism in the East End has seemingly no record of the 4,000 strong AFA march through Bethnal Green, (which specific subject matter apart, is likely to have been one of the biggest political gatherings in the borough for many decades) either. Odd really when you consider that the marchers were temporarily blinded by the flash bulbs as the march too off. And so it goes on.
Each false history feeds on to the next.

Malatesta has argued that 'No Retreat puts AFA at the centre of things'. But as it offers no political context or backdrop for what is happening elsewhere 'putting AFA at the centre of things' is what it markedly fails to do.

What it does do is to put _Hann at the centre of AFA_ which is an entirely different matter.

Putting Hann 'at the centre of things' is no doubt the purpose of the latest offering too. Not only does it rankle, but this false history, is threatning (thinking here of Gable's autobiography in particular) to develop a momentum all of it's own.

As someone once put it: 'Just because your right dosen't mean you can't be beaten'.


----------



## malatesta32 (Dec 8, 2012)

'the real narrative is covered only in BTF ' there is absolutely no doubt that this is the only definitive version so far but will not be the only valid one. the interpretation of history is subjective. you cannot have a monopoly on it as it is only opinion that says 'this is the best 1.' what is the only real narrative of the spanish civil war for example, or irish struggle? also hann's account is from an AFA perspective and i would agree that it is contextually weak. his new book by the way is not NR 2. review in freedom in the new year!


----------



## Citizen66 (Dec 8, 2012)

is he going to be the Tupac of antifascism or something?


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Dec 8, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> is he going to be the Tupac of antifascism or something?


 
Are there rumours he is still alive and in hiding on the Isle of Sheppey or something?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Dec 8, 2012)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> Are there rumours he is still alive and in hiding on the Isle of Sheppey or something?


I hear the weather's a bit muggy there


----------



## Citizen66 (Dec 8, 2012)

releasing material posthumously.


----------



## stethoscope (Dec 8, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> Infamously, accounts from the ANL, Socialist Party and Searchlight have already for example, in covering the period in question (early 80'sto late 1990's) omitted AFA entirely. A photograpical history of resistance to fascism in the East End has seemingly no record of the 4,000 strong AFA march through Bethnal Green, (which specific subject matter apart, is likely to have been one of the biggest political gatherings in the borough for many decades) either. Odd really when you consider that the marchers were temporarily blinded by the flash bulbs as the march too off. And so it goes on.
> Each false history feeds on to the next.


 
As it goes, I was reading '70 Years of Community Resistance' last week, and apart from one photo (with reference to 'AFA activists'), there wasn't if I recall a single mention of any of AFA/RAs existence, let alone work.

Now, even appreciating big differences in approach by groups like ANL/Searchlight to AFA/RA towards how to combat fascism/racism, I can completely understand how this must really piss off those of you involved in AFA/RA - it's historical whitewashing. And given the reach/visibility of the likes of Searchlight/Hope Not Hate, I can see why that's a problem when people rely on their accounts of anti-fascism history.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 8, 2012)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> Are there rumours he is still alive and in hiding on the Isle of Sheppey or something?


 
That's Jim Morrison


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Dec 8, 2012)

DaveCinzano said:


> I hear the weather's a bit muggy there


 
mug4life


----------



## DaveCinzano (Dec 8, 2012)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> mug4life


Two types of people in this world...


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Dec 8, 2012)

I can't play the video because my internet is fucked - is that Bob Mills?

Not seen him on TV for ages


----------



## DaveCinzano (Dec 8, 2012)

Aye, tis Millsy


----------



## Joe Reilly (Dec 8, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> 'the real narrative is covered only in BTF ' there is absolutely no doubt that this is the only definitive version so far but will not be the only valid one. the interpretation of history is subjective. you cannot have a monopoly on it as it is only opinion that says 'this is the best 1.' what is the only real narrative of the spanish civil war for example, or irish struggle?


 
I'm not saying that the BTF might be the only interpretation. What I'm saying is is that BTF is the only account so far to try (Copsey for instance, though more accurate than most, other than scanning FT's and the odd copy of RA didn't really _try)_ and establish _the facts_. Once the facts are established you can be as subjective as you like. The strategic importance of this or that activity in terms of the eventual outcome or in terms of how this or that strategy might be adapted for future use can be held up to the light and scrutinised from ever concievable direction. Nothing wrong with that at all. Everyone is entitled to comment. More power to your elbow and all that. Interpreting the facts is the name of the game. However, deliberately _altering_ the results to meet either personal or political requirments has to be regarded as _verboten, _and should moreover be publicly condemned. Simple as that. Otherwise it ceases to be history and becomes propaganda, party and otherwise, with the biggest loser in all of it being anti-fascism itself.


----------



## bignose1 (Dec 8, 2012)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> Are there rumours he is still alive and in hiding on the Isle of Sheppey or something?


Yeah hilarious...


----------



## bignose1 (Dec 8, 2012)

DaveCinzano said:


> I hear the weather's a bit muggy there


Thought better of you...


----------



## bignose1 (Dec 8, 2012)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> mug4life


Actually wasnt sure youd get involved but obviously too tempting.....well done


----------



## Joe Reilly (Dec 8, 2012)

steph said:


> As it goes, I was reading '70 Years of Community Resistance' last week, and apart from one photo (with reference to 'AFA activists'), there wasn't if I recall a single mention of any of AFA/RAs existence, let alone work.


 
Who is promoting/sponsoring it these days?


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Dec 8, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Actually wasnt sure youd get involved but obviously too tempting.....well done


 
I thought you would have appreciated the pun


----------



## malatesta32 (Dec 12, 2012)

i'm just doing welling. anyone got info or good reports etc apart from BBC/ITN  and those pesky 'left wing troublemakers'?


----------



## malatesta32 (Dec 12, 2012)

this is the WIA job on militant antifascists


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Dec 12, 2012)

I remember reading quite a good account of Welling at the time which had a few diagrams in showing how the police blocked off the march. It may come to me.

There is a brief critical summary at the end of this:
http://web.archive.org/web/20060925215629/http://www.red-star-research.org.uk/rpm/anl.html

(which as it says was originally published as a pamphlet by the Colin Roach Centre).


----------



## malatesta32 (Dec 12, 2012)

bloody hell i aint seen that for a while fozzie! thanks loads! i remember the diagrams piece too. bit like dad's army opening sequence.


----------



## malatesta32 (Dec 15, 2012)

can anyone help supply a chronology post-AFA? just finishing up on welling, waterloo 2 and BNP withdrawal from streets and onto 'respectable BNP.' any key events before 2010 that folk know of? cheers Mal!


----------



## Red Storm (Dec 15, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> can anyone help supply a chronology post-AFA? just finishing up on welling, waterloo 2 and BNP withdrawal from streets and onto 'respectable BNP.' any key events before 2010 that folk know of? cheers Mal!


 
The recent history has been pretty boring other than the split.

Leigh Bridge incident  -- just seen the year was 2009.

_He's got a claw hammer in his head,_
_He's got a claw hammer in his head,_
_etc... _


----------



## malatesta32 (Dec 15, 2012)

ah yes, tony 'hammerhead' ward, the cross dressing 'race mixer!' nice guy!


----------



## DotCommunist (Dec 17, 2012)

Half way through this now, having done half during a 6 hour bus journey. Enjoying, a good account of a history that never gets spoken of in the mainstream.

two questions though:

What does it profit the liberal left to so undermine street action at that time? Other than lovely money from labour and so on, where comes the disdain and attempts to outflank in the political sphere? I can't see any downside for these people. They have a deniable militant wing- people willing and able to do the dirty work. So why saddle up High Horse McHigh? Why did Searchlight act as they did?


on a less headscratching but more info asking point: can anyone recc a decent and and accurate account from the other side? I'm sure some must have been mentioned in thread but its long and I haven't the search terms


----------



## laptop (Dec 18, 2012)

DotCommunist said:


> What does it profit the liberal left to so undermine street action at that time? Other than lovely money from labour and so on, where comes the disdain and attempts to outflank in the political sphere?


 
I'm thinking that their primary fear was of wild and _uncontrolled_ streets - whether the wildness was that of fascists or of others.


----------



## Deareg (Dec 18, 2012)

DotCommunist said:


> Half way through this now, having done half during a 6 hour bus journey. Enjoying, a good account of a history that never gets spoken of in the mainstream.
> 
> two questions though:
> 
> ...


It would probably take a book of its own to explain why the British left acted and still acts the way that it did. Part of it in my opinion is the contempt in which it holds the white working class, other parts are cowardice and political opportunism, the Fascists are not a threat, look we dealt with them!!

No doubt it runs a lot deeper than this and hopefully someone more articulate than me will be along to go into greater detail.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 18, 2012)

DotCommunist said:


> Half way through this now, having done half during a 6 hour bus journey. Enjoying, a good account of a history that never gets spoken of in the mainstream.
> 
> two questions though:
> 
> ...


 
With the revo lefties it was a case theoretically of not being able to shift from an SWP controlled caricature of Trostsky's United Front ie class action versus individual terrorism . You can get a sense of this in this appaulling review of Rosenhafts book on the KPD and anti fascism . http://www.marxists.org/archive/harman/1984/03/squad.htm..  or this one http://pubs.socialistreviewindex.org.uk/isj63/bambery.htm
However there was something more to it than that  and in my mind it was the fact that the ANL mark 1 , the RtW campaign and the Rank and File all threw up a challange to the SWPs political leadership , othodoxy and attempts at a democratic centralism regime. Militant also had problems with the handful of their members involved in physical anti fascism.

Re the otherside :  Joe Owens book is mainly fiction, Eddie Morrisons 'memoirs' are hazy to say the least. Towards the end of BtF there are some comments from the otherside which basically says that AFA had better intelligence, tactics and courage. Mathew Collins book is worth a read imo.


----------



## JimW (Dec 18, 2012)

Read an interesting review of a book about being from a blackshirt family (obv not exactly relevant here) which looked worth the time from a historical perspective. Will see if I can find title if you're interested DC.


----------



## DotCommunist (Dec 18, 2012)

yeah, dig it up if you can jimothy


also cheers steps, will have a read of links after I've finished the book.


----------



## JimW (Dec 18, 2012)

Found the review, book is Memoir Of A Fascist Childhood byTrevor Grundy

http://www.blackstarreview.com/rev-0053.html


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 18, 2012)

JimW said:


> Read an interesting review of a book about being from a blackshirt family (obv not exactly relevant here) which looked worth the time from a historical perspective. Will see if I can find title if you're interested DC.


Think i remember the one, his mother used to shout perish Juda as she sent him out the door to school.


----------



## JimW (Dec 18, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Think i remember the one, his mother used to shout perish Juda as she sent him out the door to school.


Not actually read it (I'm yer classic bullshitter from reviews  ) but do recall that being mentioned. Kept him warm on a chill morning I expect.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 18, 2012)

JimW said:


> Found the review, book is Memoir Of A Fascist Childhood byTrevor Grundy
> 
> http://www.blackstarreview.com/rev-0053.html


 
Might still have that on the bookcase Its a fascinating read about the Mosleyites. Another one is  The Rebel Who Lost His Cause which is about John Beckett who went from labour to New Party /BUF and then onto some even more anti semitic post war groups  http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Rebel-Who-Lost-Cause/dp/1902809041


----------



## JimW (Dec 18, 2012)

Remember the bloke who used to do Lobster mag wrote a bio of Moseley that was well-rated too, but again not actually read it.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 18, 2012)

JimW said:


> Remember the bloke who used to do Lobster mag wrote a bio of Moseley that was well-rated too, but again not actually read it.


 
Could you provide a short list of things that you have read. might save time


----------



## miktheword (Dec 18, 2012)

DotCommunist said:


> Half way through this now, having done half during a 6 hour bus journey. Enjoying, a good account of a history that never gets spoken of in the mainstream.
> 
> two questions though:
> 
> ...


----------



## Citizen66 (Dec 18, 2012)

Matthew Collins' one is the only one I've read. But he's Hope not Hate so perhaps also has an agenda to downplay AFA. They certainly didn't feature heavily in the tale (although they did feature, or was it Red Action) and iirc he didn't attribute the defeat of the far right on the streets to them.


----------



## Sue (Dec 18, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> *Matthew Collins' one is the only one I've read*. But he's Hope not Hate so perhaps also has an agenda to downplay AFA. They certainly didn't feature heavily in the tale (although they did feature, or was it Red Action) and iirc he didn't attribute the defeat of the far right on the streets to them.


 
Wee Christmas present to yourself...?

http://beatingthefascists.org/


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 18, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> Matthew Collins' one is the only one I've read. But he's Hope not Hate so perhaps also has an agenda to downplay AFA. They certainly didn't feature heavily in the tale (although they did feature, or was it Red Action) and iirc he didn't attribute the defeat of the far right on the streets to them.


 
The book is about him , the entire book is about him, him, him. To be fair he does briefly mention RA in a faintly positive way compared to the ANL/SWP.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 18, 2012)

Frank P ?


----------



## miktheword (Dec 18, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> Frank P ?


 



Portinari


----------



## Citizen66 (Dec 18, 2012)

Sue said:


> Wee Christmas present to yourself...?
> 
> http://beatingthefascists.org/



I'm confused by you responding to me with a link to a summary of a book I've read. Have I made an untrue claim in my post (which would be easier to simply correct than making me read a lengthy summary to find the answer myself) or does that summary contain suggestions of history as written through the eyes of the far right that I missed?


----------



## Sue (Dec 18, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> I'm confused by you responding to me with a link to a summary of a book I've read. Have I made an untrue claim in my post (which would be easier to simply correct than making me read a lengthy summary to find the answer myself) or does that summary contain suggestions of history as written through the eyes of the far right that I missed?


 
Erm no, took your 'Matthew Collins's one if the only one I've read' bit as meaning you hadn't read BTF. Nothing sinister, just misunderstood you


----------



## Citizen66 (Dec 18, 2012)

Sue said:


> Erm no, took your 'Matthew Collins's one if the only one I've read' bit as meaning you hadn't read BTF. Nothing sinister, just misunderstood you



They're asking for credible stories from the enemy. Unsurprisingly there's not many suggestions.


----------



## malatesta32 (Dec 18, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> Matthew Collins' one is the only one I've read. But he's Hope not Hate so perhaps also has an agenda to downplay AFA. They certainly didn't feature heavily in the tale (although they did feature, or was it Red Action) and iirc he didn't attribute the defeat of the far right on the streets to them.


 
yeah its the best ive read (several times) and he does give RA several mentions. AFA not. morrisons 'memoirs' are bollocks as he has been drunk most of the time. joey owens nietzschean misunderstanding are just nonsense. o mahoneys Hateland is illustrative of how pissed and clueless they are but has unreliable dates, names etc. tim hepples is cowritten with gerry gable and annoying. chubby hendersons is so disingenuous as to be laughable (as is his headhunters co-defendant steve hickmott's). the grundy book mentions 43 group and how scared the fash were of them but is pretty unenlightening and depressing. there was something by the fash in leeds called white lies which was quite well written in parts and downloadable but the link is gone. i cant believe how much of this shit ive actually read of late. rosenhaft's book is one of the best books on militant anti-fascism i have read.


----------



## malatesta32 (Dec 18, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> Might still have that on the bookcase Its a fascinating read about the Mosleyites. Another one is The Rebel Who Lost His Cause which is about John Beckett who went from labour to New Party /BUF and then onto some even more anti semitic post war groups http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Rebel-Who-Lost-Cause/dp/1902809041


 
francis beckett did the book on the CP which was pretty dull. didnt realise daddy becket was fash tho!


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 19, 2012)

miktheword said:


> Portinari


 
Now that would be interesting.


----------



## Delroy Booth (Dec 19, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> The recent history has been pretty boring other than the split.
> 
> Leigh Bridge incident  -- just seen the year was 2009.
> 
> ...


 
Wasn't it, to the tune of "He's got the whole world in in His hands"

_ Tony Ward's got a Chinese wife,_
_Tony Ward's got a Chinese wife,_
_Tony Ward's got a Chinese wife,_
_And a claw-hammer in his head_

I swear there was other verses too


----------



## bignose1 (Dec 19, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> Now that would be interesting.


I dare say itll cause waves...(Portinari in a Storm) but it wont be authentic....
.....I was at my investigative peak when this character was in his heyday....Ill leave it at that for now....


----------



## malatesta32 (Dec 19, 2012)

confused italian catholic frank who joined loyalists in same thread as confused jewish mum joins BUF.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 19, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> confused italian catholic frank who joined loyalists in same thread as confused jewish mum joins BUF.


 
I think Portinari was a bit more active  than Grundy's mum


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 19, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> yeah its the best ive read (several times) and he does give RA several mentions. AFA not. morrisons 'memoirs' are bollocks as he has been drunk most of the time. joey owens nietzschean misunderstanding are just nonsense. o mahoneys Hateland is illustrative of how pissed and clueless they are but has unreliable dates, names etc. tim hepples is cowritten with gerry gable and annoying. chubby hendersons is so disingenuous as to be laughable (as is his headhunters co-defendant steve hickmott's). the grundy book mentions 43 group and how scared the fash were of them but is pretty unenlightening and depressing. there was something by the fash in leeds called white lies which was quite well written in parts and downloadable but the link is gone. i cant believe how much of this shit ive actually read of late. rosenhaft's book is one of the best books on militant anti-fascism i have read.


 
White Lies- the Appleyard pamphlet?


----------



## malatesta32 (Dec 19, 2012)

i dont know who wrote it - and the fash blamed larry o at one point! appleyard is the violent thug, white a grass it seems. i was surprisingly impressed until i noticed the repetition of 'we all met in the pub that afternoon ...'  and 'after the pub...' - bunch of drunks.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Dec 19, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> yeah its the best ive read (several times) and he does give RA several mentions. AFA not.


 
That probably says more about his 'war record' than AFA's. He never was a 'face' or string puller for one. So his view of the strategic landscape was never likely to have been an elevated one. Moreover he's only claim to fame or infamy if you prefer, is that he turned his coat, so his view of the 'other side' will undoubtedly be coloured by his new friends; so all in all a thoroughly unreliable narrator.  On an equally cynical level, writing AFA out of history and or damning RA with faint praise is of course a Searchlight signature but is also more common than you'd imagine even in otherwise seemingly respectable anti-fascist circles: Jeremy Corbyn for example.


----------



## malatesta32 (Dec 19, 2012)

what's the corbyn stuff joe?


----------



## Joe Reilly (Dec 20, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> what's the corbyn stuff joe?


 
You'll have to ask Red Storm about that one.


----------



## Red Storm (Dec 20, 2012)

"I remember Red Action used to go around attacking, erm, fascist supporters. When if in fact you saw one side attacking the other you couldn't tell the difference. I'm not in favour of one group going around attacking another, as it reduces yourself to their level.

Red Action, I mean, I could see their value in terms of stewarding meetings and defensive action. But I think there were some people in Red Action who got quiet a bit over excited and enjoyed a bit of action. They didn't seem that concerned or strong about any of the issues.

I remember once chairing a meeting on Kurdistan or Iran and the fascists came to try and break up the meeting. At various points Red Action came in the meeting, well, I couldn't tell the difference.

'We're Red Action' <said in a tough, working class sounding/goblin voice>.
'Yep, okay. They went that way <points>'. Just please don't come in hear, stay out. They were all like this <hits fist into palm>.'

It was quiet funny really. 'They went that way'."


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 20, 2012)




----------



## Fozzie Bear (Dec 20, 2012)

Imagine how "funny" it would have been if Red Action hadn't been there.


----------



## malatesta32 (Dec 20, 2012)

Sue said:


> Don't know if this has already been mentioned, but anyone read this:
> 
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bloody-Nasty-People-Britains-Right/dp/1844679594
> 
> Just saw it on a bookstall and had a very quick flick. Interesting to note that AFA aren't mentioned in the index. Still Owen Jones is quoted on the front cover as saying it's 'authoritative'.


 
has anyone read this? is it worth spending me xmas book token on?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Dec 20, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> has anyone read this? is it worth spending me xmas book token on?


 
It has been mentioned once or twice 

http://www.urban75.net/forums/search/17717726/?q=trilling&o=date


----------



## krink (Dec 20, 2012)

i want rosenhaft's book but its 25 quid and that'd be my entire xmas box gone


----------



## Joe Reilly (Dec 20, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> "I remember Red Action used to go around attacking, erm, fascist supporters. When if in fact you saw one side attacking the other you couldn't tell the difference. I'm not in favour of one group going around attacking another, as it reduces yourself to their level.
> 
> Red Action, I mean, I could see their value in terms of stewarding meetings and defensive action. But I think there were some people in Red Action who got quiet a bit over excited and enjoyed a bit of action. They didn't seem that concerned or strong about any of the issues.
> 
> ...


 


He didn't come across quite so insouciant when an NF hit squad armed with hammers etc attacked a building in Archway in which he was holding his surgery - but then again, there was a moment when he actually thought it was _him_ they were after.


----------



## framed (Dec 20, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> "I remember Red Action used to go around attacking, erm, fascist supporters. When if in fact you saw one side attacking the other you couldn't tell the difference. I'm not in favour of one group going around attacking another, as it reduces yourself to their level.
> 
> Red Action, I mean, I could see their value in terms of stewarding meetings and defensive action. But I think there were some people in Red Action who got *QUITE* a bit over excited and enjoyed a bit of action. They didn't seem that concerned or strong about any of the issues.
> 
> ...


 
Patronising c@nt. 

Is there an online source for this story and is it available in a correctly spelled version?

Using 'quiet' (as in 'silence') for *quite* does my fcuking nut in...


----------



## Red Storm (Dec 20, 2012)

framed said:


> Patronising c@nt.
> 
> Is there an online source for this story and is it available in a correctly spelled version?
> 
> Using 'quiet' (as in 'silence') for *quite* does my fcuking nut in...





No online or correctly spelled version. I just played the interview I did with JC and typed it as I listened,


----------



## framed (Dec 20, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> No online or correctly spelled version. I just played the interview I did with JC and typed it as I listened,


 
So it's you who can't fcuking spell!?


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 20, 2012)

framed said:


> Patronising c@nt.
> 
> Is there an online source for this story and is it available in a correctly spelled version?
> 
> Using 'quiet' (as in 'silence') for *quite* does my fcuking nut in...


 what is a 'goblin' voice?


----------



## Delroy Booth (Dec 20, 2012)

That Corbyn thing is amazing, thanks for putting it up there.

They don't hate the fascists politics, they hate their manners. As Dr Eoin McLove (PHD) put it "The only thing that seperates us from the fascists is our manners"


----------



## Red Storm (Dec 20, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> what is a 'goblin' voice?



He was trying to imitate a Red Action member. 

What came out was something half goblin and half working class estate.


----------



## Red Storm (Dec 20, 2012)

framed said:


> So it's you who can't fcuking spell!?



Caught red handded!


----------



## framed (Dec 20, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> i'm just doing welling. anyone got info or good reports etc apart from BBC/ITN and those pesky 'left wing troublemakers'?


 
There were Celtic casuals at Welling, a couple of them were tried for their part in the riot and one of them served 12 months from what I recall. He got involved in AFA when he got out of prison, eventually he emigrated to Canada.

The frontline of some of the big confrontations with the police at Welling was formed by Celtic Soccer Crew (CSC) and other football lads that they met on the day. They were taken to London free of charge on buses laid on by the SWP/ANL, who then tried to discourage them from taking part in any violence. A fat lot of good that did. 

This was the CSC, pre-AFA and RA influence, with the SWP and Militant competing to recruit them. We just waited for the fall-out, cos there was never a chance in a million fucking years that any of those bhoys would join, or be controlled by either group.


----------



## Red Storm (Dec 20, 2012)

How come it took until post-1993 before RA and AFA influenced CSC? 

Did they not exist until the early 90s? 

The question sounds a bit snotty but I mean it in a nice way


----------



## framed (Dec 20, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> How come it took until post-1993 before RA and AFA influenced CSC?
> 
> Did they not exist until the early 90s?
> 
> The question sounds a bit snotty but I mean it in a nice way


 
The CSC have existed since 1984. Some of them were known to us and us to them, but we were involved in serious actions against the fash (_described in BTF as 'terrorism'_) between 1990-1993 that did not require a mass input, and which relied on tight security. The fash were being doorstepped and attacked in their own homes, we didn't need nor want the involvement of flakier elements that might compromise our security.

One of the 'top bhoys' of the CSC tagged along with us on the Scottish Anti-Racist March, late 1993 and witnessed us confronting the fash, he joined in enthusiastically. He saw the difference between AFA and the ANL at first-hand and went back raving about AFA to the other lads. That brought more of them around us, which was useful for big offs, but the main business against the fash in Glasgow had been done during the 'terror' campaign of the previous couple of years.

EDIT: Also related to this and coincidental was the recruitment to (London) Red Action of one of the original founders of the CSC. He had moved south for work reasons a couple of years earlier and he met up with the other CSC lads at Welling. It was in the immediate aftermath of Welling that I think he too joined Red Action and AFA, although Joe R would know the exact timing of his recruitment.


----------



## malatesta32 (Dec 21, 2012)

krink said:


> i want rosenhaft's book but its 25 quid and that'd be my entire xmas box gone


 
id buy it anyway. you're not going to get it cheap - believe me ive tried! - but it is worth every penny.


----------



## malatesta32 (Dec 21, 2012)

great stuff on CSC. and its nice to know im not the only one who uses the word 'soccer' when referring to that dreadful game. there was a section on politics and soccer in lowles' hooligans book which i thought wd be quite good but it wasnt much kop! in BTF there is pic of a fierce looking chap in what looks like a celtic top. this is an under-documented area re: hoolys and left wing politics.


----------



## bignose1 (Dec 21, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> what is a 'goblin' voice?


IMO it would be slup...nice cock....slurp...


----------



## Red Storm (Dec 21, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> great stuff on CSC. and its nice to know im not the only one who uses the word 'soccer' when referring to that dreadful game. there was a section on politics and soccer in lowles' hooligans book which i thought wd be quite good but it wasnt much kop! in BTF there is pic of a fierce looking chap in what looks like a celtic top. this is an under-documented area re: hoolys and left wing politics.


 
_BTF_ talks a bit about the Kool Kats (MCFC) doesn't it?

Also I hope you're not going to use "soccer" in the book!

I was going to write about football and AFA in my dissertation but I ran out of words. I was going to write about music and football.


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## malatesta32 (Dec 21, 2012)

yes it mentions the kool kats etc. i think there is something much bigger in it. i got mickey francis' book which is pretty dull too. tho there is great bloke in it called 'daft donald!'


----------



## Red Storm (Dec 21, 2012)

Sue said:


> Don't know if this has already been mentioned, but anyone read this:
> 
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bloody-Nasty-People-Britains-Right/dp/1844679594
> 
> Just saw it on a bookstall and had a very quick flick. Interesting to note that AFA aren't mentioned in the index. Still Owen Jones is quoted on the front cover as saying it's 'authoritative'.


 
Did Owen Jones ever review _BTF?_
WebRep

Overall rating


This site has no rating
(not enough votes)


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## rekil (Dec 21, 2012)

krink said:


> i want rosenhaft's book but its 25 quid and that'd be my entire xmas box gone


Try Dirk Schuman's Political Violence in the Weimar Republic. It's a bit cheaper.


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## Joe Reilly (Dec 21, 2012)

Sorry read that as Joey Owens!


----------



## Divisive Cotton (Dec 22, 2012)

I wanted to buy a copy of this as an Xmas present to a friend.

It only seems available from Freedom Books directly. Is that correct?


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 22, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> yes it mentions the kool kats etc. i think there is something much bigger in it. i got mickey francis' book which is pretty dull too. tho there is great bloke in it called 'daft donald!'


 
His brother is called Donald.

Mickey ended up doing a bit of wrestling a few years ago! http://www.mickeyfrancis.com/


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## LiamO (Dec 22, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> yes it mentions the kool kats etc. i think there is something much bigger in it. i got mickey francis' book which is pretty dull too. tho there is great bloke in it called 'daft donald!'


 
Is Mick O'Farrell really writing a book?

THAT will be an interesting read with as much football and political violence as you are likely to encounter.

It's an awful shame a young Mickey did not write one 25 years ago. It would be interesting to contrast that with the (I assume) more reflective one he is now apparently writing.

I sincerely hope he tells his story warts and all; that _his_ truth matches the recollections of other comrades - and does not indulge himself in too much score-settling/revisionism. He has much of importance to say. I hope he says it.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Dec 22, 2012)

Divisive Cotton said:


> I wanted to buy a copy of this as an Xmas present to a friend.
> 
> It only seems available from Freedom Books directly. Is that correct?



Shops or mail order?

Housmans in Kings X should have some.


----------



## bignose1 (Dec 22, 2012)

LiamO said:


> Is Mick O'Farrell really writing a book?
> 
> THAT will be an interesting read with as much football and political violence as you are likely to encounter.
> 
> ...


From what I gather its just about FC United..a year going to every game..the modern football bollox....no doubt with an intro of sorts from where he came from ideas wise....which I hope doesnt get too bogged down with past stuff which went shitty. Though I would add he does have every right to write about what he thinks about it... I just think it will get lost in a 200 page shitfest as per BTF/NR.


----------



## Red About Town (Dec 22, 2012)

Why did O'Farrell leave Red Action?


----------



## LiamO (Dec 23, 2012)

Red About Town said:


> Why did O'Farrell leave Red Action?


 
Perhaps Mickey could answer that for himself. 

Maybe he just evolved personally and politically in a different direction... and the rest of us did not move with him at a pace he would have liked.


----------



## LiamO (Dec 23, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Though I would add he does have every right to write about what he thinks about it...


 
I didn't say he did not. 

I just said I would like to read his take on things... and Mickey was an exceptionally witty man at times. His story should be told. By him preferably.


----------



## DotCommunist (Dec 23, 2012)

can later editions be matte pls, I know its a proper minor gripe but the shine off of the gloss pages makes it hard to read sometimes and I have to shift position to see the text properly


/firstworldproblems


----------



## Frances Lengel (Dec 23, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> yes it mentions the kool kats etc. i think there is something much bigger in it. i got mickey francis' book which is pretty dull too. tho there is great bloke in it called 'daft donald!'


 
There's a guy calling himself Donald Farrer from Rochdale who regularly posts semi coherent gibberish in the comments bit of the Mcr Evg News website. I know the original Daft Donald of whom you speak was called Donald Farrer/Farah (however you spell it) and though he originally came from Langley, Middleton, he did move to Falinge flats, Rochdale around 1990 - I can't help wondering if it's him posting in the evening news or if it's some sorta pisstake/pastiche. That's nothing to do with anti fascism though.


----------



## bignose1 (Dec 23, 2012)

Frances Lengel said:


> There's a guy calling himself Donald Farrer from Rochdale who regularly posts semi coherent gibberish in the comments bit of the Mcr Evg News website. I know the original Daft Donald of whom you speak was called Donald Farrer/Farah (however you spell it) and though he originally came from Langley, Middleton, he did move to Falinge flats, Rochdale around 1990 - I can't help wondering if it's him posting in the evening news or if it's some sorta pisstake/pastiche. That's nothing to do with anti fascism though.


Donald Farrer(Daft Donald) started life as a United fan and even went to both for a while. Not very bright and a complete liability some say. Doing 'daft' things gets you a laugh but gets you jail as well which eventually some City 'lads' cottoned on to. Infact they used to say get as farrer way from him as possible......so just as well he didnt get into anti fascism..we had/have enough fantasists to cope with.

A new book out by a City hooligan called Anthony Bennion is on the shelves atm and also a new spell checked edition of the Young Guvnors by Rodney Rhoden. Rodney is onside antifash wise and doesnt hide it.


----------



## Red Storm (Dec 23, 2012)

I think hooligan literature is dull as fuck. 

Is the Celtic Soccer Crew one as dull as the rest?


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 23, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> I think *hooligan literature* is dull as fuck.
> 
> Is the Celtic Soccer Crew one as dull as the rest?


 
kick lit


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## The39thStep (Dec 23, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Donald Farrer(Daft Donald) started life as a United fan and even went to both for a while. Not very bright and a complete liability some say. Doing 'daft' things gets you a laugh but gets you jail as well which eventually some City 'lads' cottoned on to. Infact they used to say get as farrer way from him as possible......so just as well he didnt get into anti fascism..we had/have enough fantasists to cope with.
> 
> A new book out by a City hooligan called Anthony Bennion is on the shelves atm and also a new spell checked edition of the Young Guvnors by Rodney Rhoden. Rodney is onside antifash wise and doesnt hide it.


 
A quite breathless book  decription on Amazon.......



> MANCHESTER CITY HOOLIGANS This book is the brother book to the GUVNORS by Mickey Francis, and tells the story how we went to grounds up and down the country causing chaos and looting in town centres, with the undercover police not far behind us posing as hooligans then tipped off the uniformed and the other team of undercover police who were driving around in a BT van and a British gas van taking photos of the mob and videoing, and how the mob had now chilled out because of all the police pressure with their in your face approach and their videoing of us but it was even worse when our black firm would join up with the rest of the mob and the police suddenly go straight to the blacks and they have the cheek to walk around with their badges on kick out racism what a cheek. The mob cant get out of the pub these days even when its going off outside because they are more interested in their pint than to go and kick it off so whats the point coming out and bringing ourselves on top with the police if nothings going down, and they wonder why pure teams are coming down taking the piss just like Birmingham city's Zulu warriors did in 07/08 that's why me and most of the black firm at city cant be arsed anymore . I will still go and bring my video camera only so the police cant try and frame me again, when their is an arrest their video evidence all of a sudden goes missing when it comes to the court case, so i will continue to bring mine and if they film me i will carry on filming them back like I've been doing for years.


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## malatesta32 (Dec 23, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> I think hooligan literature is dull as fuck.


 
it is. i got loads of em to help research far right influences in soccer. the only half way decent one was by mickey smith about being a young skinhead with west ham. the dreaduly titled 'hoolifan' - has quite a lot on original 69 skinheads. o'farrell shd write his autobiog. it wd be very interesting. i may be able to help him out on it too.


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## malatesta32 (Dec 23, 2012)

also apologies for derailing this thread into the daft donald area! i only liked his name.


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## LiamO (Dec 23, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> o'farrell shd write his autobiog. it wd be very interesting. i may be able to help him out on it too.


 
An interesting comment, malatesta. How, exactly, can you 'help him out' on it?

Mickey was writing songs in his borstal cell as a kid and writing articles for Red Action for years. He is also an excellent storyteller. So I take it you are talking in terms of publishing/self-publishing technical advice?


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## malatesta32 (Dec 23, 2012)

i mean with publishers etc yeah. they can be a VERY insular bunch some of em that ive dealt with. he certainly has the tale to tell.


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## Red About Town (Dec 23, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> I think hooligan literature is dull as fuck.
> 
> Is the Celtic Soccer Crew one as dull as the rest?


 
It's what you would expect from a hooligan book. I found it a very honest read which is slightly different from other books in this genre.
O'Kane does mention that links between the crew and Red Action.


----------



## Fedayn (Dec 23, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> I think hooligan literature is dull as fuck.


 
Casuals by Phil Thornton is well worth a read.


----------



## bignose1 (Dec 23, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> also apologies for derailing this thread into the daft donald area! i only liked his name.


Duck off!!. Anti Quackist Quaktion...OK...!!


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## malatesta32 (Dec 23, 2012)

you're quackers man!


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## Red About Town (Dec 23, 2012)

_An interesting article from TAL fanzine from 1995. _
*EYE WITNESS IN BRUM*

The pre-season friendly match against Birmingham City (Blues) was marred by the antics of the Blues fans and other supporters of Midlands clubs and their fascist mates who think that the Irish, and they see Celtic fans as very definitely Irish, are easy meat.
It's ironic that this violence should occur in Birmingham where a recent survey found that one in three of the city's population were either Irish or of Irish descent. It therefore follows that Birmingham has three Celtic supporters clubs and many members make regular trips to see the Bhoys. TAL also has huge support within these clubs with a good number of fanzines being sold to the local Celts.
Rumours began to circulate in the weeks before the match that Brum's 'Irish Quarter' in Digbeth was going to be attacked by an alliance of the Blues 'firm' and fascists from the BNP and CIS. Their intended targets would be the Irish pubs in the area and the Celtic fans who would be drinking there.

None of us wanted to see Celtic fans turned over by this mob so we let TAL, Anti-Fascist Action, Red Action and the Celtic Soccer Crew know about the possibilities. An Alliance was formed for the day in order to defend the Digbeth area and our supporters, should it be necessary. Lots of fans had been drinking in Digbeth the previous evening and the locals were well pleased with their friendly behaviour. On the Saturday it was much the same with people enjoying the usual amounts of beer and craic. We had no intention of going looking for trouble but if the rumours were true, we weren't going to sit back and see our supporters battered.

The other thing that is important is that it isn't just the Celtic fans that such attacks are aimed at. Football fans can bounce back from just about anything. The attack would also serve the purpose of intimidating Birmingham's whole Irish community. The Irish in Brum have had to put up with a lot of shit since the pub bombings and have only just begun to come out of their ghettoes again so we were not going to lie down and let this scum walk all over us.

At about 10am, a couple of hundred 'lads' turned the corner. Something told us that they were not interested in sampling the Guinness! They charged us but, much to their surprise and horror, the Celtic fans only hesitated. Our supporters quickly grouped up and counter charged the Blues fans resulting in them being slapped all over the place, which spread a great buzz among the Celts.

Another mob tried to attack us from a side street but, again, they were ran. They then decided to seek refuge behind the lines of police who had quickly appeared and our attackers showed their true colours by Sieg Heiling us and singing their favourite ditty of the moment, "No Surrender to the IRA". All this after being chased off and then hiding behind the cops - what was that about "No Surrender'? The Celtic Casuals answered this with a chant of "BNP - wank, wank, wank!" 

This went some way towards letting the black lads from the Birmingham 'Zulus' know that our fight was not against them but against the fascists and loyalists whose intentions are to smash the Irish. Many Celtic fans were surprised to see black guys fighting on the same side as the nazis - why be so shocked that the Zulus should fall for the same anti-Irish crap that is absorbed by most England fans? They weren't giving nazi salutes like the others but they were up for the row and therefore suffered the same fate as their fair weather friends. It's disappointing but hopefully the Zulus will have learned to choose their friends more carefully in future. I remember well in the early eighties how Villa NF supporters used to put stickers around the Holte End saying, "Villa shits on Black Zulus". Yet, against Celtic, the Zulus were prepared to fight on the same side as the Villa fascists!

Some of our own fans were slagging the Celtic Casuals saying that they were only there looking for trouble. We would like to make it clear that these lads were well disciplined throughout the day and, but for them, it would have been a massacre. Instead, Celtic fans fought back and won. And it wasn't just casuals that fought - there were loads of guys wearing the hoops and scarves who steamed into the fascists. We are proud to stand shoulder to shoulder with the casuals who have shown by their recent actions that they are proud to defend the anti-fascist stance of the Celtic supporters. They are republicans and they hate the fascists. They also believe, like us, that the sort of direct action which took place in Birmingham is the best way to stop the fascists.

It's important that all of our supporters recognise that whilst they may not share our militant sentiments, you don't stand and point out people to the police when they have just saved you from having your throat cut! The days of the anti-casual/hooligan chants are long gone. These guys are anti-fascists and should be applauded for their actions in Birmingham.


----------



## bignose1 (Dec 25, 2012)

Talking of Zulus look at this character......a thoroughly unpleasant racist bigot of long standing from the Tameside area. When he's not getting off playing with model soldiers or dressing up like something out of 'it aint half hot' he's spying on the left and his OWN comrades. A D Jones of Ashton u Lyne has been involved in a lot of unpleasant causes over many years....but information sat on for over twenty years by anti fascist activists will shortly blow the lid off this character and reveal his double dealing. Only too eager to pass information to Kevin Whatgob at Redwatch and NorthWestNationalst mouthpiece and knifeman Peter Barker...we can also reveal who else he was passing information to.

He should have thought twice about his recent disgusting rants re some of our friends no longer with us. You were warned before to tone it down but to no avail. Watch this space.


----------



## LiamO (Dec 25, 2012)

Ach Big Nose. Enough with the International Man of Mystery/harbinger of impending doom etc.

It's baby Jesus' birthday and you should be nice to everybody.


----------



## Deareg (Dec 25, 2012)

LiamO said:


> Ach Big Nose. Enough with the International Man of Mystery/harbinger of impending doom etc.
> 
> It's baby Jesus' birthday and you should be nice to everybody.


It has actually got fuckall to do with baby J it is a pagan festival, but carry on that man.


----------



## Citizen66 (Dec 25, 2012)

.


----------



## bignose1 (Dec 25, 2012)

LiamO said:


> Ach Big Nose. Enough with the International Man of Mystery/harbinger of impending doom etc.
> 
> It's baby Jesus' birthday and you should be nice to everybody.


Maybees...but quite honestly this slime ball has nothing to do with fair play and cheeriness and joy to all men....he's a fully grown scrote bag who needs pegging back. The fuckers got MS, his best mate fucked off with his missus....but as he was grassing them up before all this...its poss a bit of Valhala payback but he still thinks he's got something to offer. Matey your fucked...


----------



## framed (Dec 25, 2012)

Merry Christmas/Happy Pagan Ritual, or however else you celebrate this festive season... 

Best wishes to all anti-fascists!


----------



## LiamO (Dec 25, 2012)

... and happy Hanukkah


----------



## DotCommunist (Dec 25, 2012)

hanukkah finished saturday before last. I know this because froggy made me these fried things out of sweet potato and carrot and lit this candle holder with special jew candles in it. Now is the time of jesus being born Santa


----------



## bignose1 (Dec 25, 2012)

DotCommunist said:


> hanukkah finished saturday before last. I know this because froggy made me these fried things out of sweet potato and carrot and lit this candle holder with special jew candles in it. Now is the time of jesus being born Santa


Hanukkah loopy...


----------



## bignose1 (Dec 25, 2012)

framed said:


> Merry Christmas/Happy Pagan Ritual, or however else you celebrate this festive season...
> 
> Best wishes to all anti-fascists!


Gentle Jesus...did you ever think....it'd end up this bad.


----------



## DotCommunist (Dec 25, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Hanukkah loopy...


 

in off the red (action)


----------



## Casually Red (Dec 25, 2012)




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## bignose1 (Dec 26, 2012)

DotCommunist said:


> in off the red (action)


Are we going for a snooker/anti-fascist pun fest:-

Or should we give it a rest...


----------



## Joe Reilly (Dec 26, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> "I remember Red Action used to go around attacking, erm, fascist supporters. When if in fact you saw one side attacking the other you couldn't tell the difference. I'm not in favour of one group going around attacking another, as it reduces yourself to their level.
> 
> Red Action, I mean, I could see their value in terms of stewarding meetings and defensive action. But I think there were some people in Red Action who got quiet a bit over excited and enjoyed a bit of action. They didn't seem that concerned or strong about any of the issues.
> 
> ...


 
You rather get the impression it wasn't the first time this anecdote was _recalled._ It would no doubt have gone down a treat a dinner parties particularly in reassuring the type of anti-fascist who never would or could throw a punch, that not unlike Jeremy, should the situation arise, it is they rather than the 'over excitable' lower orders who would prove cooler under fire. The officer class you see.

The 'couldn't tell the difference between them' which he repeats more than once brings to mind an accusation from Linda Bellos directed at a RA member that he dressed 'like a fascist'.

What did she mean?

What she actually meant is that he dressed a like any other youthful member of the working class. That like her he was of mixed race didn't matter a whit - for her as for Jeremy, the RA member in question really couldn't expect to  be trusted unless he was dressed properly which is to say - in a way that would allow him to pass muster as a lefty (student in all probability).

Finally a message of solidarity from Jeremy to the immigrants or left-wingers having their heads stove in by the Golden Dawn on a daily basis.

"Even if you lose and eye - you always have another one". No matter the provocation it is better to be blinded than 'sink [organise] to their level'."

Throaty cheers from Golden Dawn.


----------



## Fedayn (Dec 26, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> What she actually meant is that he dressed a like any other youthful member of the working class.


 
That attitude still exists in all it's idiocy today and was fully in evidence whenever the SDL have tried to do something 'notable' in Glasgow.


----------



## Casually Red (Dec 26, 2012)

Having read the above there really is ..admittedly in my often emotional opinion..a serious argument for physical force antifacism to stand back for a bit and let the fascists do a _year zero_ on the wooly jumper brigade . Out ofthe ashes of their physical elimination a phoenix of sorts would hopefully arise . Failing that they deserve a good kicking anyway .

I reckon .


----------



## LiamO (Dec 26, 2012)

Ho Ho Ho. Yes, tempting isn't it?

This was _always_ the dilemna for Red Action.
Whether to back off and let the fash at the lefties, who forcefully told us - in the absence of any actual fascist presence of course - that they did not _need_ and certainly did not _want_ us around.

The problem being that a) at _every_ event organised by woolly liberal-lefties there would _always_ be a number of genuine working class people perhaps attending their first political event... how could you justify abandoning them to the fash just cos you thought the organisers were cunts

and b) we could not afford to give the fash _any_ glimpse of their (huge) potential to intimidate, to terrorise and to win.


----------



## Casually Red (Dec 26, 2012)

[quote="LiamO, post: 11827763, member: 



> The problem being that a) at _every_ event organised by woolly liberal-lefties there would _always_ be a number of genuine working class people perhaps attending their first political event... how could you justify abandoning them to the fash just cos you thought the organisers were cunts


 
by envisaging the " Itold you sos and "I'll listen to you from now on" when your visiting them in casualty . Whats wrong with being proven right ?




> and b) we could not afford to give the fash _any_ glimpse of their (huge) potential to intimidate, to terrorise and to win.


 
as the wooly jumpers reckoned AFA were all indistinguishable from the fash anyway theres a few birds i reckon could have been killed with one stone. But thats just my twisted mind whirring away. Lets just carry on and pretend i havent suggested anything so machiavellian[/quote]


----------



## krink (Dec 27, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> That attitude still exists in all it's idiocy today and was fully in evidence whenever the SDL have tried to do something 'notable' in Glasgow.


 

A few times I've had this conversation even with decent working class antifash. some bloke in his 40s, (shaved head, looks like he had a hard paper round) walks by and they've marked him as a fash. "he looks like one" to which I reply "then so do I".

Thing is if you actually look at photos of the local fash none of them fit the thugy stereotype. They're mostly nondescript. Look more like a bunch of saddo losers than working class fighters...

What people imagine they look like:



what they look like:


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 27, 2012)

The latter two used to be though didn't they?


----------



## krink (Dec 27, 2012)

biggsy i could imagine it but he was in london then so i don't know for certain. watmough was in bradford/leeds so dunno either.


----------



## Red Storm (Dec 27, 2012)

The video used in the beating the fascists trailer is a good example of this. 

When the huge bald guy is boxing with all the fash. You can't really tell who's on who's side in that clip unless you hear the story.


----------



## Casually Red (Dec 27, 2012)

I was in Berlin about 5 years ago when accross the street from us theres a huge bonehead starts kicking seven bells out of this poor little guy with a beard . Kicking him so hard your almost getting that bass drum sound and shouting shit at him, like some crazed obergruppen fuhrer . Dudes I was with instead of running at him....thank fuck... start giving him the thumbs up, cheering him on . Turned out the completely shaven headed stormtrooper was on our side and the little bearded shite was a fash spy from some " national anarchist kommune" . I was quite relieved because the bonehead was fucking huge and very agile . Did not fancy that one .
But it goes to show you cant really tell . Half the german fash are running about dressed like anarchists these days and all .


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 27, 2012)

Casually Red said:


> I was in Berlin about 5 years ago when accross the street from us theres a huge bonehead starts kicking seven bells out of this poor little guy with a beard . Kicking him so hard your almost getting that bass drum sound and shouting shit at him, like some crazed obergruppen fuhrer . Dudes I was with instead of running at him....thank fuck... start giving him the thumbs up, cheering him on . Turned out the completely shaven headed stormtrooper was on our side and the little bearded shite was a fash spy from some " national anarchist kommune" . I was quite relieved because the bonehead was fucking huge and very agile . Did not fancy that one .
> But it goes to show you cant really tell . *Half the german fash are running about dressed like anarchists* these days and all .


 
That must be really embarrasing


----------



## Fedayn (Dec 27, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> The latter two used to be though didn't they?


 


krink said:


> biggsy i could imagine it but he was in london then so i don't know for certain. watmough was in bradford/leeds so dunno either.


 
Biggs was fairly handy certainly.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 27, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> That must be really embarrasing


Some anarchists are very well dressed. As was ever thus.


----------



## Casually Red (Dec 27, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> That must be really embarrasing


 
if you google image National anarchists youll see them even adopting the Guy Fawkes masks and anarchist anti capitalist slogans . Dont want to link any pics to here because most of them are from fash sites . But attire wise many on the new right are indistinguishable from the Black Bloc. Even many of the symbols look leftist until you scrutinise a bit closer. Its bad enough their politics are disgusting but then they have to go and find a way of making themselves even more cuntish by introducing even more confusion to my life. All this political stuff is confusing enough as it is.


----------



## past caring (Dec 27, 2012)

krink said:


> biggsy i could imagine it but he was in london then so i don't know for certain. watmough was in bradford/leeds so dunno either.


 
There was a _reason_ that he moved up North. 



Fedayn said:


> Biggs was fairly handy certainly.


 
But not _that_ handy.


----------



## bignose1 (Dec 27, 2012)

Casually Red said:


> I was in Berlin about 5 years ago when accross the street from us theres a huge bonehead starts kicking seven bells out of this poor little guy with a beard . Kicking him so hard your almost getting that bass drum sound and shouting shit at him, like some crazed obergruppen fuhrer . Dudes I was with instead of running at him....thank fuck... start giving him the thumbs up, cheering him on . Turned out the completely shaven headed stormtrooper was on our side and the little bearded shite was a fash spy from some " national anarchist kommune" . I was quite relieved because the bonehead was fucking huge and very agile . Did not fancy that one .
> But it goes to show you cant really tell . Half the german fash are running about dressed like anarchists these days and all .





Fedayn said:


> Biggs was fairly handy certainly.


Sorry handy as in a big lump who if one caught you you'd probably go down or got you in a bear hug you might regret it. But a complete wanker...and a bully...not hard. I hate that.


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## Fedayn (Dec 27, 2012)

past caring said:


> But not _that_ handy.


 
Indeed, but unlike alot of his erstwhile companions he at least stood. Seen him with a few jumped on him still swinging and giving it out.



bignose1 said:


> Sorry handy as in a big lump who if one caught you you'd probably go down or got you in a bear hug you might regret it. But a complete wanker...and a bully...not hard. I hate that.


 
I've seen him do well a few times. He was no slouch..... He certainly wasn't like a lot of his pals who if it wasn't for their own sense of racial pride would come a close second to usain Bolt when it came to sprinting....


----------



## q_w_e_r_t_y (Dec 28, 2012)

Casually Red said:


> if you google image National anarchists youll see them even adopting the Guy Fawkes masks and anarchist anti capitalist slogans . Dont want to link any pics to here because most of them are from fash sites . But attire wise many on the new right are indistinguishable from the Black Bloc. Even many of the symbols look leftist until you scrutinise a bit closer. Its bad enough their politics are disgusting but then they have to go and find a way of making themselves even more cuntish by introducing even more confusion to my life. All this political stuff is confusing enough as it is.



Here in Greece there is the same issue.  The antifa movement is disproportionately made up of big scary white men, who are lovely with good politics, but they are still big scary white men.  The violent imagery that is used in a lot of posters and even some of the slogans seem ambiguous to someone who doesn't speak Greek.

I was talking to someone about Villa Amalias (the squat that got evicted last week) and pointing it out as we went past.  He's a migrant, and the skeleton murals on the outside had led him to believe that this was a fascist place (they control the nearby square), so he had been careful to avoid going near it. We cant do anything to avoid the fash appropriating our symbols but we need to be careful about what symbolism we use and how we appear to people, firstly to ordinary people around, and secondly to those who are targetted by fash.


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## malatesta32 (Dec 28, 2012)

past caring said:


> There was a _reason_ that he moved up North.
> 
> 
> 
> But not _that_ handy.


 
in the spirit of festivus, spill the beans sir! and what is biggs doing with that bullhorn in the pic?


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## malatesta32 (Dec 28, 2012)

LiamO said:


> b) we could not afford to give the fash _any_ glimpse of their (huge) potential to intimidate, to terrorise and to win.


 
absolutely! they were crowing enough about that poor old guy who got attacked in south london.


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## krink (Dec 28, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> what is biggs doing with that bullhorn in the pic?


 
wondering if he can eat it?


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## malatesta32 (Dec 28, 2012)

just been reading nick ryan on wilf browning and also lowles in white riot. it is all on a par with 'the lair of the beast' etc. yet there are no other accounts qualifying this. also, 
[Wells] 

was no friend of Sargent he actually happened to be Browning's right hand man (what does that tell you?)​ 
of course, they knew he was really a grass all along but oddly didn't do anything about it!


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## malatesta32 (Dec 28, 2012)

and

'Wells went on national tv and accused Sergant of being a state op and portrayed himself as a leading light in C18. We now know the exact opposite is true! ... Wells was a searchlight agent and Sergant obviously was not and as I stated before only those of a dubious nature or those who were lacking in intelligence fell for these outrageous lies.'​ 
the branch and gerry running their own wee operations then?


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## Cornetto (Dec 30, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> The latter two used to be though didn't they?







Watty in his hey day, more poppa smurf now.


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## malatesta32 (Dec 30, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> I've seen him do well a few times. He was no slouch..... He certainly wasn't like a lot of his pals who if it wasn't for their own sense of racial pride would come a close second to usain Bolt when it came to sprinting....


 
too fat to run?


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## malatesta32 (Dec 30, 2012)

watmough is a nasty little scrote who makes money from selling nazi tat. as far as i know he has never been done for anything, redwatch etc. some on the far right reckon he has kept out of trouble by grassing. he is currently hangin off the arse of the NE infidels. his BPP venture was an utter failure.


----------



## malatesta32 (Dec 30, 2012)

Casually Red said:


> if you google image National anarchists youll see them even adopting the Guy Fawkes masks and anarchist anti capitalist slogans . Dont want to link any pics to here because most of them are from fash sites . But attire wise many on the new right are indistinguishable from the Black Bloc. Even many of the symbols look leftist until you scrutinise a bit closer. Its bad enough their politics are disgusting but then they have to go and find a way of making themselves even more cuntish by introducing even more confusion to my life. All this political stuff is confusing enough as it is.


 
on the BNP thread at British Democracy forum, there is an appreciating thread on guy debord/spectacle. recuperation or what?


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 30, 2012)

I wouldn't really say that it's appreciative given that they reduced his radical critique down to l_ook at all the thick people watching x-factor and going shopping- _if anything that just highlights the crossover of the contemptuous views of the working class between liberals and the far-right and thr gap between them and how people like Debord viewed the class' capabilities.


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## Divisive Cotton (Dec 30, 2012)

q_w_e_r_t_y said:


> Here in Greece there is the same issue. The antifa movement is disproportionately made up of big scary white men, who are lovely with good politics, but they are still big scary white men.


 
I think if I was in Greece right now I'd want lots of big scary white men to be on my side, but I take your point


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## LiamO (Dec 31, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> too fat to run?


 
Oi, cunt. You are allowed to write your book. You are allowed full discourse on here.

But do not... *DO FUCKIN NOT*... ever... *EVER*... steal Red Action's battle (waddle) cry... RIGHT?!!!


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## malatesta32 (Dec 31, 2012)

LiamO said:


> Oi, cunt. You are allowed to write your book. You are allowed full discourse on here.
> 
> But do not... *DO FUCKIN NOT*... ever... *EVER*... steal Red Action's battle (waddle) cry... RIGHT?!!!


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## Dougie Winthrop (Jan 3, 2013)

last time manchester saw any anti fascist "action" was some yahoo spraying up the palatine.


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## Red Storm (Jan 3, 2013)

.


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## connollyist (Jan 3, 2013)

Have just reread this. Fucking outstanding book. I did find the parts about DH uncomfortably frank, but otherwise I found it spot on politically. As someone whose had some involvement with Antifascism post AFA it does make ya feel like you missed a major working class movement. Nothing over here seems to have been realised so fully since? Including the Iwca which still puts out the occasional spot on analysis.


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## malatesta32 (Jan 3, 2013)

anti-fascism has changed radically with cctv, dna, FIT etc. however, all the demos i've been on have been pretty lively and there are usually militants around to hook up with. AFA tactics are not appropriate at the moment and the most effective tactic is mass blocking like bristol, brighton and walthamstow. literally no pasaran. this looks like it cd be a good book:
http://malatesta32.wordpress.com/2012/02/27/militant-anti-fascism-book/


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## connollyist (Jan 4, 2013)

Yeah I took the book as an analysis of AFA.  Not a manual on how to be an antifascist. I agree that mass mobilisations with as much local support as possible. A lot of the lads I work with view the EDL as a joke, they have just been a flash in the pan. However I do belive that Pyschical force antifascim does still have something of a place at particular times. Either to nip something in the bud or more importantly defending yourselves from attack. However it is no longer possible in the style the 43 group, the squads or AFA used.


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## malatesta32 (Jan 4, 2013)

yeah i think this is the general consensus here, or of those who are still active anti-fascists. i certainly would not condemn the EDL getting a few slaps away from the demo's and plod as has happened many times. manchester seems to be the next one of any significance although a few groupuscules are aiming to do a few wee protests here and there. the far right have fared badly in MCR so it should be an interesting day out.


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## bignose1 (Jan 4, 2013)

connollyist said:


> Yeah I took the book as an analysis of AFA. Not a manual on how to be an antifascist. I agree that mass mobilisations with as much local support as possible. A lot of the lads I work with view the EDL as a joke, they have just been a flash in the pan. However I do belive that Pyschical force antifascim does still have something of a place at particular times. Either to nip something in the bud or more importantly defending yourselves from attack. However it is no longer possible in the style the 43 group, the squads or AFA used.


 
Couldnt resist 'fash in the pan'


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## krink (Jan 6, 2013)

http://www.hopenothate.org.uk/blog/article/2410/why-no-platform-means-something-different-today


liberals


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## The39thStep (Jan 6, 2013)

krink said:


> http://www.hopenothate.org.uk/blog/article/2410/why-no-platform-means-something-different-today
> 
> 
> liberals


 
ten years too late


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## Spanky Longhorn (Jan 6, 2013)

connollyist said:


> Pyschical force antifascim


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## krink (Jan 6, 2013)

to me it's just a continuation of years of being vilified by the liberal anti-fascists. for example look at the language Lowles uses; he says he has been 'denounced' by libcom not simply criticised. besides which the article on libcom barely mentions him by name. anyway, fuck em.


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## malatesta32 (Jan 7, 2013)

'while I have been firmly denounced by the anarchist-aligned ‘LibCom.org’.' 

like they havent been working against anarchists for fecken years. and also my comments on HnH often dont appear.


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## Spanky Longhorn (Jan 7, 2013)

I've been firmly denounced by libcom I couldn't sit down for days after


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## Fozzie Bear (Jan 9, 2013)

Has anyone read this new book from Searchlight?

Anton Shekhovtsov, Paul Jackson (Ed): _White Power Music - Scenes of Extreme-Right Cultural Resistance_

http://www.searchlightmagazine.com/...c-scenes-of-extreme-right-cultural-resistance


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## butchersapron (Jan 9, 2013)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Has anyone read this new book from Searchlight?
> 
> Anton Shekhovtsov, Paul Jackson (Ed): _White Power Music - Scenes of Extreme-Right Cultural Resistance_
> 
> http://www.searchlightmagazine.com/...c-scenes-of-extreme-right-cultural-resistance


Not yet, but i did listen to the audio of a conference that the Radicalism and New Media Research Group (Gable's academic front who are behind this) held that partly covered this - wasn't really impressed.


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## Fozzie Bear (Jan 9, 2013)

Nice one, will check the link and maybe get the book when I have money.


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## butchersapron (Jan 9, 2013)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Nice one, will check the link and maybe get the book when I have money.


I do have some hope though as Anton Shekhovtsov has done some really interesting stuff. For example Apoliteic music: Neo-Folk, Martial Industrial and ‘metapolitical fascism’


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## Fozzie Bear (Jan 9, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> I do have some hope though as Anton Shekhovtsov has done some really interesting stuff. For example Apoliteic music: Neo-Folk, Martial Industrial and ‘metapolitical fascism’


 
I was going to say just that! A shame he now seems to be in bed with Searchlight, but i guess times are hard for academics.

"Patterns of Prejudice" - the academic journal where that article appeared first (I think) is doing a special issue on "Music And The Other" soon apparently.

This "Radicalism" stuff - it's basically academic study of fascism + islamic extremism, but leave the door open for "extreme left" stuff also, presumably? Which I guess makes the "anti-extremist" agenda of liberal anti-fascism more explicit.


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## Joe Reilly (Jan 9, 2013)

connollyist said:


> Have just reread this. Fucking outstanding book. I did find the parts about DH uncomfortably frank, but otherwise I found it spot on politically.


 
Funnily enough the original draft presented to Freedom Press was considerably less detailed. However after someone at FP saw fit to then to allow Louise Purbick access to the unpublished manuscript, she demanded whole scale changes relating not only to Hann but also interestingly, in relation to others mentioned too.

FP then put the argument to BTF reps that 'compromise' would suit all parties. It should be noted that FP were under tremendous pressure from both within and without to the extend that had it been another small publisher without political sympathy they would likely have succumbed leaving the book unpublished. By them anyway.

Now, BTF reps were not unaware of this and may have tempted down the 'compromise route until it gradually became apparent in discussions that should some of her concerns be accomodated this might not necessarily preclude legal action against BTF anyway.

Essentially we were being urged to make alterations/amendments/omissions that would have considerably weakened the credibility of the case against Hann, and as a result would have made the prospect of a libel case _even_ _more likely_ due to the case against BTF now appearing even more attractive to the likes of Carter Ruck.

After some consideration rather than soften the case against Hann it was decided to bolster the original draft with further detail in order to deny Carter Ruck the wriggle room in which to ply the trade in which they are undeniably expert.

In addition to this we also sent to Carter Ruck and Louise Purbick a confidential letter signed by half-a-dozen eye witnesses outlining the full unedited case against Hann. If you think BTF was rough on Hann then you should have read that.

Carter Ruck must have thought so too as they dropped the case not long afterwards.

In conclusion, BTF is only as 'frank' on the matter of Hann as it had to be. Far from being 'vindictive' as some have it; to try and present it less honestly, or to pull one too many punches, risked BTF not being published at all.


----------



## love detective (Jan 9, 2013)

Interesting to note as well that the lawyer at Carter Ruck who we were sparring with (a specialist in defamation, who now now longer works for them) recently secured a number of settlements on behalf of a variety of high profile clients against News International in relation to the phone hacking scandals, and was also seconded to assist with the Leveson enquiry

So it's not like they just set the work experience kid on it


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## connollyist (Jan 9, 2013)

I don't dispute you there Joe. The book makes it obvious why those involved in the book from a RA background have had to be so blunt. Otherwise every action or statement you make gets twisted against you, as it seems has long been the case. I included my view on the DH as an honest addmision, I found it uncomfortable reading. That doesn't mean I wish to dispute the account in the book.


----------



## bignose1 (Jan 10, 2013)

Joe Reilly said:


> Funnily enough the original draft presented to Freedom Press was considerably less detailed. However after someone at FP saw fit to then to allow Louise Purbick access to the unpublished manuscript, she demanded whole scale changes relating not only to Hann but also interestingly, in relation to others mentioned too.
> 
> FP then put the argument to BTF reps that 'compromise' would suit all parties. It should be noted that FP were under tremendous pressure from both within and without to the extend that had it been another small publisher without political sympathy they would likely have succumbed leaving the book unpublished. By them anyway.
> 
> ...


 
Are you following the SWP thread Joe......


----------



## bignose1 (Jan 10, 2013)

Joe Reilly said:


> Funnily enough the original draft presented to Freedom Press was considerably less detailed. However after someone at FP saw fit to then to allow Louise Purbick access to the unpublished manuscript, she demanded whole scale changes relating not only to Hann but also interestingly, in relation to others mentioned too.
> 
> FP then put the argument to BTF reps that 'compromise' would suit all parties. It should be noted that FP were under tremendous pressure from both within and without to the extend that had it been another small publisher without political sympathy they would likely have succumbed leaving the book unpublished. By them anyway.
> 
> ...


 
As predicted in the run up to Daves book coming out.....I wouldnt have expected any less


----------



## Inigo Montoya (Jan 10, 2013)

The Blaggers, Stage Bottles (Ger), Brigada Flores Magon (Fra) and more playing a 10th anniversary memorial gig for Dax, the Italian anti-Fascist murdered by Nazis, in London in April.

More -  https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...46040811.61056.274156472707505&type=1&theater


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## Joe Reilly (Jan 10, 2013)

connollyist said:


> I don't dispute you there Joe. The book makes it obvious why those involved in the book from a RA background have had to be so blunt. Otherwise every action or statement you make gets twisted against you, as it seems has long been the case. I included my view on the DH as an honest addmision, I found it uncomfortable reading. That doesn't mean I wish to dispute the account in the book.


 
Fair enough. It was the "otherwise" remark that prompted me to respond as I did.


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## LiamO (Jan 10, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> As predicted in the run up to Daves book coming out.....I wouldnt have expected any less


 
behave yourself BN.

JR was responding in a considered way to a legitimate post - unless you think Connollyist is a Reilly-ite plant? i really don't want to see this thread derailed again so if you have specifics about Carter-Ruck etc to post - post them.

Otherwise please keep the head and chill.


----------



## bignose1 (Jan 11, 2013)

LiamO said:


> behave yourself BN.
> 
> JR was responding in a considered way to a legitimate post - unless you think Connollyist is a Reilly-ite plant? i really don't want to see this thread derailed again so if you have specifics about Carter-Ruck etc to post - post them.
> 
> Otherwise please keep the head and chill.


----------



## connollyist (Jan 11, 2013)

I'm definately not a Reillyite plant. I've met him once in passing and I'd have a fair say he has no idea who I am? I know one member of this board in person and he may not even be aware who I am posting as. I know a few other RA lads well, in person and outside of here, however i'm here with no agenda (and right now to kill time on night shift). I think JR was trying to summerise/ clarify earlier points he's made and to be honest sounds as tired of going over certain points as you are big nose. Anyways I think i'm causing a derailment here so I'll say no more unless it's on topic..


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## malatesta32 (Jan 11, 2013)

can we not get into all this again please?


----------



## intersol32 (Jan 11, 2013)

To quote the Nick Lowles HnH article:

"HOPE not hate joined a community campaign which helped force the venue owner to withdraw the invitation. Success, so we thought. However, a few BNP supporters did turn up and were attacked by anti-fascists, one with a hammer. What began as a great success story turned into a PR disaster as images of the beaten man dominated local, regional and even national news for three days."

I think this neatly sums up the liberal view of militant anti-fascism. Assuming that everyone shares the same opinion of a particular news article, and also the reliance upon a mainstream media to put HnH's agenda out there for public consumption.

It's another reason why the ANL and other lefty groups despised AFA's confrontational and uncompromising stance. They didn't want images of "rough looking types" throwing BNP members out of council estates dominating press coverage. Instead they preferred set piece photos of middle class demonstrators holding posters and shaking hands with local politicians (who were usually the cause of the rise in sympathy for the BNP in the first place).

Lowles is talking out of his rear when he claims that the concept of 'No Platform' has changed. In fact he's more or less showing that the liberal view of physical force anti-fascism is still the same as it was 20 years ago.


----------



## audiotech (Jan 11, 2013)

intersol32 said:


> It's another reason why the ANL and other lefty groups despised AFA's confrontational and uncompromising stance. They didn't want images of "rough looking types" throwing BNP members out of council estates dominating press coverage. Instead they preferred set piece photos of middle class demonstrators holding posters and shaking hands with local politicians (who were usually the cause of the rise in sympathy for the BNP in the first place).


 
Leaving aside the very fact that ANL mk1, in my experience at least, did actually have, who you describe as "rough looking types" amongst its ranks, in this case throwing NF members out of pubs on some council estates, and beyond it should be said, you wander off into building some straw man characterture of your own making. This being your claim of a supposedly '"preferred" set-piece photo opp'. Now, you might want to claim other failings of, to be specific, ANL mk2, some I would most likely agree with you on, but as for this? Utter tosh.


----------



## intersol32 (Jan 11, 2013)

audiotech said:


> Leaving aside the very fact that ANL mk1, in my experience at least, did actually have, who you describe as "rough looking types" amongst its ranks, in this case throwing NF members out of pubs on some council estates, and beyond it should be said, you wander off into building some straw man characterture of your own making. This being your claim of a supposedly '"preferred" set-piece photo opp'. Now, you might want to claim other failings of, to be specific, ANL mk2, some I would most likely agree with you on, but as for this? Utter tosh.


 
Sorry, but I can't help finding your post quite dismissive and slightly weird in its over analysis of my comments.

I'd agree that the ANL Mark One (along with the earlier parent organisation the SWP) was comprised of members who held a different stance. Especially since this is the same political background that many founding RA and AFA members came from. Nevertheless, it's without a doubt that the ANL Mark Two certainly distanced itself both publicly and organisationally from much of the physical force anti-fascism that went on throughout the 80's  hand 90's.

Speaking from personal experience, the campaign that we (as AFA) involved ourselves in throughout the midlands during that same period would bear my previous comments out.

For instance, discussions with the ANL and SWP both formal and informal around the issue of the BNP campaigning in the Mansfield and Ashfield area pointed to their intention of holding purely static demonstrations outside polling booths and organising meetings addressed by local Labour politicians. Given this, it's hardly surprising that many were more concerned with (as Lowles hints at) their "PR image".


----------



## audiotech (Jan 11, 2013)

I would agree that there was a "different stance" to what went on before, as I do with the view that that most Labour politicians are interested in a "PR image", but your initial claim of a '"preferred" set-piece photo opp' appeared to sweep with a wider brush, to include those anti-fascists, who although may work alongside Labour politicians at times may have a different "preferred" opp to the "PR image" one, or thinking about it maybe I'm being a bit over sensitive at this time, for some now passed away working class militants. New Year, must move on.


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## LiamO (Jan 11, 2013)

connollyist said:


> I'm definately not a Reillyite plant.


 
nobody thinks you are


----------



## Red Storm (Jan 11, 2013)

The Hann book is out today. Just got it sent to my kindle.


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## intersol32 (Jan 11, 2013)

audiotech said:


> I would agree that there was a "different stance" to what went on before, as I do with the view that that most Labour politicians are interested in a "PR image", but your initial claim of a '"preferred" set-piece photo opp' appeared to sweep with a wider brush, to include those anti-fascists, who although may work alongside Labour politicians at times may have a different "preferred" opp to the "PR image" one, or thinking about it maybe I'm being a bit over sensitive at this time, for some now passed away working class militants. New Year, must move on.



No problem. I'm not intending to create the view that anyone who stood outside AFA were a waste. To give them credit, there were always certain individuals (especially in the unions) who held 'respectable positions' but supplied us with essential info on Fascist activity. In many ways wr couldn't have operated as successfully without them.


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## bignose1 (Jan 12, 2013)

Red Storm said:


> The Hann book is out today. Just got it sent to my kindle.


Are you doing a review?


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## Red Storm (Jan 12, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> Are you doing a review?


 
I'm not no, but someone is doing one for the Anti-Fascist Archive.


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## bignose1 (Jan 12, 2013)

Red Storm said:


> I'm not no, but someone is doing one for the Anti-Fascist Archive.


Fair do's.


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## malatesta32 (Jan 12, 2013)

i've done a review for Freedom which shd be out soon.


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## Red Storm (Jan 13, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> Fair do's.


 
If I was going to do a full proper review would need a copy of _No Retreat_ and _Beating the Fascists_ (and maybe _Anti-Fascism in Britain_) but I don't have access to either so I can't cross-reference blah blah.

I did finish the book today however. It's a good oral history but it does raise a few questions.

I'm going to gather my thoughts and notes, and maybe ask them


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## malatesta32 (Jan 13, 2013)

good idea. i think he has got a lot of very good interviews and also sources esp 43 Group, IB members. it is important to bare in mind that it was 'unfinished.'


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## Nice one (Jan 13, 2013)

red action get a mention in this recent phil thornton (author of _casuals_) interview with tal fanzine. 
http://talfanzine.info/blog/2013/01/11/casuals-author-phil-thornton-speaks-to-tal/


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## DaveCinzano (Jan 13, 2013)

Nice one said:


> red action get a mention in this recent phil thornton (author of _casuals_) interview with tal fanzine.
> http://talfanzine.info/blog/2013/01/11/casuals-author-phil-thornton-speaks-to-tal/





> ... I don’t think of casual as a karaoke revival fashion...


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## The39thStep (Jan 13, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> good idea. i think he has got a lot of very good interviews and also sources esp 43 Group, IB members. it is important to bare in mind that it was 'unfinished.'


 
How does your book match up?


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## The39thStep (Jan 13, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> good idea. i think he has got a lot of very good interviews and also sources esp 43 Group, IB members. it is important to bare in mind that it was 'unfinished.'


 
 Louise Purbeck finished it


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## Red Storm (Jan 14, 2013)

The39thStep said:


> Louise Purbeck finished it


 
TBH I don't think she could ever hope to finish it the way Hann would have been intending in his head. She has tied it up but I don't think its as good as it would have been had Hann lived to finish it 100%.


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## Delroy Booth (Jan 14, 2013)

intersol32 said:


> To quote the Nick Lowles HnH article:
> 
> "HOPE not hate joined a community campaign which helped force the venue owner to withdraw the invitation. Success, so we thought. However, a few BNP supporters did turn up and were attacked by anti-fascists, one with a hammer. What began as a great success story turned into a PR disaster as images of the beaten man dominated local, regional and even national news for three days."
> 
> ...


 
Lowles account of what happened at Leigh Bridge is factually wrong.



> However, a few BNP supporters did turn up and were attacked by anti-fascists, one with a hammer. What began as a great success story turned into a PR disaster as images of the beaten man dominated local, regional and even national news for three days.


The anti-fascists did not "attack the BNP" the BNP attacked them, as they (the UAF) were stood gormlessly outside a pub after it turned out their meeting place was riddled with BNP. Were it not for the timely intervention of one young lad and a hammer the local news would've been dominated by the images of perhaps a dozen or so UAF protestors smashed to fucking bits - presumably Nick Lowles thinks that'd make for much better PR than the image of Tony Ward's bloodied face. I suspect he wouldn't feel the same way if it was him, rather tham some middle-aged UAF people who couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag, who had Andrew Tierney whacking him around with one of those extendable police truncheon thingy's.


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## audiotech (Jan 14, 2013)

Delroy Booth said:


> Lowles account of what happened at Leigh Bridge is factually wrong.
> 
> 
> The anti-fascists did not "attack the BNP" the BNP attacked them, as they (the UAF) were stood gormlessly outside a pub after it turned out their meeting place was riddled with BNP.


 
Somewhat a distorted picture from the video posted at the time of events preceding. This, of one BNP member walking through the demonstrators in a bid to intimidate and another with a camera filming it. I also recall two anti-fascists, women, one in particular being far from, as you describe, "stood gormlessly".


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## Delroy Booth (Jan 14, 2013)

They weren't all gormless fair enough that unwarranted, I'll take that back.

But no otherwise I'm right, the BNP attacked first. the UAF group didn't even realise what was going on at first.


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## audiotech (Jan 14, 2013)

Were you there?

It's possible they did realise what was going on and were wise enough not to rise to the bait? The camera in the hands of the BNP supporter filming events was perhaps a clue?


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## Delroy Booth (Jan 14, 2013)

audiotech said:


> Were you there?
> 
> It's possible they did realise what was going on and were wise enough not to rise to the bait? The camera in the hands of the BNP supporter filming events was perhaps a clue?


 
Oh yeah and btw Lowles makes out like UAF had planned on doing some squaddism (I fucking wish!) or that the purpose of the thing was to go and smash up a meeting. That's just not true. What I was told was that they were going to have a nice peaceful demo outside the place where the BNP meeting was being held (which initially, iirc, was going to be a nightclub in the town centre, but that could've been a deliberate attempt at misdirection) to pressure them owners into pulling out. Infact me and my friends were told specifically "you'd better not be planning on going pub-wrecking it's not that kind of thing" before we set off.

My exact memory of it is a bit hazy now, and I didn't arrive at the scene 'til just after Tony Ward got bopped on his head (I arrived just as the BNP Land Rover was being tipped over) but I've heard accounts of those few minutes leading up to when I arrived from about half a dozen seperate people, some of whom are good friends of mine who I trust completely, and they all said pretty much the same thing; the UAF group were meant to be meeting up at a pub on St.Helens road near Leigh Bridge, they got there, and it turned out was also a meeting place the BNP were using before going to their final destination. The BNP kept having to change their destination so they were basically just lingering in this pub waiting to find out where to go. The UAF lot left the pub, after an awkward few seconds at the bar lol, then stood outside doing nothing for a while (which is the point those videos are taken from I presume) whilst the BNP lot were basically pushing them around, sticking camera's in their faces and so on. Then the BNP Land Rover turned up, 4 men (all well known Liverpool and North West BNP thugs) got out with weapons, started heading towards the UAF lot. Now it's worth pointing out that the BNP weren't filming this particular bit. At exactly this point some lad comes screaming down a side alley with a hammer*, bops Tony Ward on the head, runs around the road a bit screaming, the BNP shit themselves and scatter, and the BNP Land Rover gets turned over and smashed to bits by the UAF protestors. More UAF started appearing after this, however the first group who were there were outnumbered, on their own, and I don't think many of them could've fought their way out of that situation based on my initial impression when I got there.

*I've heard a few versions of this story some say he didn't have a hammer, and that the hammer was one that Andrew Tierney had brought that he'd dropped on the floor in the melee. One other person told me he pounced out the back of a white van that was parked up in a side-street.


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## audiotech (Jan 14, 2013)

A clearer picture, thanks Delroy.


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## Delroy Booth (Jan 14, 2013)

No worries.

The fact Lowles is regurgitating this false story is pretty shitty and should tell you everything you need to know about Hope Not Hate. They'd have preferred it if the story ended with half a dozen UAF being hospitalised by the BNP.

And I don't remember Hope Not Hate being involved in any "community campaign" at around what happened in leigh. They certainly didn't help get the meeting closed down. Unless some of the people involved who I've always thought were acting personally were actually working on behalf of Hope Not Hate without me realising it.
They might've phoned up the nightclub and got them to agree to cancel it, but so fuckin' what, the BNP used to deliberately pick a place to have their meeting that they knew they would cancel, trying to wrong foot us. It's not a new tactic, perhaps the first two or three options would be blatant misdirection aimed at keeping lefties away. I mean, holding a BNP fundraiser in a fucking open nightclub? Does it sound realistic? Nah they were never gonna hold it there.

EDIT: think I've fucked the dates up, did this all happen after the Euro elections or before? I can't remember.

Remember I was of the Labour party at the time. I wasn't the only one their either. I was far more a Labour Party squaddist than a UAF one. I was also a Labour member in Salford around the time the BNP were campaigning heavily to get Griffin elected to the EU parliament. We had Griffin roaming about all over the fucking place, it was a nightmare. I don't remember Hope Not Hate offering us fuck all by way of support. We were completely on our own, and many of the younger people were very scared and needed support that I personally couldn't give them, as much I did my best. At least the UAF actually came out leafletting and could be relied upon to turn up at demo's, although their attitude was unhelpful in many other ways.


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## audiotech (Jan 14, 2013)

Yes, telephoning venues is part of HnH's MO.

I do know someone who is now linked to HnH. Was heavily involved in Barking and Dagenham.


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## Delroy Booth (Jan 14, 2013)

audiotech said:


> Yes, telephoning venues is part of HnH's MO.
> 
> I do know someone who is linked to HnH. Was heavily involved in Barking and Dagenham.


 
Thing about that is the BNP are well wise to it. The venue they list as the one they're having a meeting in would generally be some random place they have no intention of having a a meeting in. Then HnH phone up, the meeting is "cancelled" HnH pat themselves on the back for some top-notch community campaigning and the BNP get on with having a real meeting, the location of which is given out over the phones at the last minute to avoid lefties finding out.


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## audiotech (Jan 14, 2013)

Well, after time the BNP would adapt their tactics to circumstances. They're not stupid. HnH need to follow suit, if they've not done already.


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## Red Storm (Jan 14, 2013)

From what I have been told them lads with the hammer and dogs stopped a massacre of the UAF.


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## malatesta32 (Jan 14, 2013)

The39thStep said:


> How does your book match up?


 
in mine, the first section is euro-fascism, eire, scotland, and england pre-2nd world war, then post-war uk antifascism and then the last section is on the EDL. inevitably there will be similarities given the subject but not in the 1st and last parts. our writing styles as well as pretty different.


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## Red Storm (Jan 14, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> in mine, the first section is euro-fascism, eire, scotland, and england pre-2nd world war, then post-war uk antifascism and then the last section is on the EDL. inevitably there will be similarities given the subject but not in the 1st and last parts. our writing styles as well as pretty different.


 
Is yours an oral history like Hann's?


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## malatesta32 (Jan 14, 2013)

Red Storm said:


> TBH I don't think she could ever hope to finish it the way Hann would have been intending in his head. She has tied it up but I don't think its as good as it would have been had Hann lived to finish it 100%.


 
i think this is probably right. the book is well worth a read though and you just have to bare in mind that it was unfinished and louise did the best anyone could have done given the far from ideal circs.


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## malatesta32 (Jan 14, 2013)

Red Storm said:


> Is yours an oral history like Hann's?


 
no its not. i collated a vast amount of material on europe first then on the UK. the EDL part will be based on all the 'malatesta' pieces 'as it happened' kind of thing. i have also used stuff from on here by liam (very funny!), intersol, framed, frogwoman etc. which are 'people's history.'


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## malatesta32 (Jan 14, 2013)

Red Storm said:


> If I was going to do a full proper review would need a copy of _No Retreat_ and _Beating the Fascists_ (and maybe _Anti-Fascism in Britain_) but I don't have access to either so I can't cross-reference blah blah.
> 
> I did finish the book today however. It's a good oral history but it does raise a few questions.
> 
> I'm going to gather my thoughts and notes, and maybe ask them


 
maybe a summation of antifascist lit so far cd be good for the website. not that there's loads though.


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## malatesta32 (Jan 14, 2013)

Delroy Booth said:


> ... Tony Ward's bloodied face. I suspect he wouldn't feel the same way if it was him, rather tham some middle-aged UAF people who couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag, who had Andrew Tierney whacking him around with one of those extendable police truncheon thingy's.


 
tony 'hammerhead' ward the cross dressing 'race mixer' who married a chinese woman to stop her from 'breeding.' there was film footage of 'hammertime' somewhere which shows exactly what happened.


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## Fozzie Bear (Jan 14, 2013)

Dave Renton's review of Dave Hann's new book:
http://londonsocialisthistorians.blogspot.co.uk/2013/01/book-review-physical-resistance.html


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## Red Storm (Jan 14, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> no its not. i collated a vast amount of material on europe first then on the UK. the EDL part will be based on all the 'malatesta' pieces 'as it happened' kind of thing. i have also used stuff from on here by liam (very funny!), intersol, framed, frogwoman etc. which are 'people's history.'


 
Okay. It'll be very different to Hann's then


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## malatesta32 (Jan 14, 2013)

i think there is sufficient difference between the 2. there aint enough books on militant antifascism yet though!


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## bignose1 (Jan 14, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> i think this is probably right. the book is well worth a read though and you just have to bare in mind that it was unfinished and louise did the best anyone could have done given the far from ideal circs.


I think people who may think that way(Redstorm) probably fail to take into account they lived together for 15+ years and they knew each other pretty well. He ran out of time but the essence is its Daves book and its irrelevant whether it got finished by her. In my conversations with Dave when he knew he was seriously ill and not able to finish it he knew it would be left in good hands.


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## malatesta32 (Jan 14, 2013)

i think renton's (surprisingly fair) review backs your point of view up  re: ' a strong sense of his basic generosity of spirit.'


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## bignose1 (Jan 14, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> i think renton's (surprisingly fair) review backs your point of view up re: 'a strong sense of his basic generosity of spirit.'


Although me and Dave had run ins politically...sometimes I couldnt get across that I was onside with him...having to tread a careful path with Searchlight which was a fucking pain sometimes as you got it from both sides...he was quite sympathetic but did put his foot down on a few occasions.

My departure from Searchlight inner circle in 93/4 on the basis that I had to choose was a godsend in many ways and although in a down turn period the antifash stuff wasnt as 'mad'... I really started to enjoy the freedom it gave and go my own way and to have normal friendships...I know it sounds a bit wet but I think you need to have some normal mates. Dave and his family became close friends and I have defended Dave against the allegations made by OShea etc because I know them to be untrue....not because he's a pal.

They concocted a smear campaign after they were found out to have lied about it. I dont expect those who have been behind the most recent attacks on him and his ex partner to show ny let up. No doubt any review they may write will all be about them and their absolute inability to let their bruised ego's recover from the fact that others had the audacity to write a book on a subject they feel they own. Crivvens. (c)


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## Red Storm (Jan 14, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> I think people who may think that way(Redstorm) probably fail to take into account they lived together for 15+ years and they knew each other pretty well. He ran out of time but the essence is its Daves book and its irrelevant whether it got finished by her. In my conversations with Dave when he knew he was seriously ill and not able to finish it he knew it would be left in good hands.


 
I think its been finished as well as it could have been. I just think that only the original person with the original idea would know when it was finished, how far it was supposed to go and whether it was to their expected standard. I meant nothing bad by it; only that the best it could have been is if Hann had finished it but the book is near the best it could have been given the circumstance.


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## Red Storm (Jan 14, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> i think renton's (surprisingly fair) review backs your point of view up re: 'a strong sense of his basic generosity of spirit.'


 
I'm not keen on his review personally.


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## bignose1 (Jan 14, 2013)

Red Storm said:


> I think its been finished as well as it could have been. I just think that only the original person with the original idea would know when it was finished, how far it was supposed to go and whether it was the their expected standard. I meant nothing bad by it; only that the best it could have been is if Hann had finished it but the book is near the best it could have been given the circumstance.


Point taken Storm and I didnt think you meant to come across harsh. What sprung to mind just before is as you kmow I knew Steig Larsson and had stayed with him and Eva in Stockholm. When she did her book launch last year in London about her life with him I spoke to her about Dave having an unfinished book and how it would be his wish for it to be finished if time ran out. It was widely publisized that their was a 4th unfinished book that was on a lap top. As she has been written out of Steigs legacy by his father and brother its 'existence' became a point of contention.

Whether or not there is such a manuscript the fact is she was with him for 30 + years and was influential in all his works. Discussing characters,locations, story lines, etc. If she were to finish a '4th' book I dont think it wouldnt be Steigs...its the legacy thats important.


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## malatesta32 (Jan 14, 2013)

im just surprised over the lack 'macho squaddists' etc. which has been renton's usual line. ive read far worse reviews! and had them!


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## Joe Reilly (Jan 14, 2013)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Dave Renton's review of Dave Hann's new book:
> http://londonsocialisthistorians.blogspot.co.uk/2013/01/book-review-physical-resistance.html


 
"His account is the first I have come across to acknowledge the changing character of Red Action (most of whose early members left very quickly) and to begin the story of Anti-Fascist Action’s demise (Birchall’s book stops at the 1992 Battle of Waterloo, AFA’s “Cable Street”, without beginning to explain how quickly the organisation decayed thereafter)."

Not sure what Renton is implying by the 'changing character' of Red Action, but the notion that BTF stops at 1992 and AFA 'quickly decayed' afterwards is pure baloney.

Now whether he is getting that from the book or from his own 'research' is hard to tell at the moment but it's hardly auspicious.


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## malatesta32 (Jan 14, 2013)

fighting talk was still being published in 2000 was it not?


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## Red Storm (Jan 14, 2013)

2001


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## framed (Jan 14, 2013)

I bought the Kindle edition and after a quick scan-through, I am now going through it again in order to review it for TAL.

The eye-witness accounts from history are a good read and lend it an air of authenticity.

A glaring departure from the general gist of the book is obvious imho when it comes to the modern period, especially where there is overlap between the ANL, Squads, Red Action and AFA. I would go as far as to speculate that it was a hand other than Hann's that finished this section and drew the (wrong) political conclusions from it. The politics of gender and identity litter the book's final chapters.

I was a bit disappointed with Mick O'Farrell's contribution, _edit_, a lot of the old stories and anecdotes are there, but in conclusion he appears to concur with Purbrick (_I assume that this is Louise's opinion of RA because I never heard or read Dave express his disagreements in these terms_) and the oft-repeated myths about Red Action's membership in terms of race and gender. Mick moans about the political deterioration of Red Action as a reason for his split with the group. I joined RA not long after Mick had left and I strongly disagree with his estimation of the organisation. If anything, the politics and theoretical positions of Red Action were further developed in his absence.

Then again, I suppose if someone else who was also there had already told all my best anecdotes in another book, I'd be pissed off too. 

EDIT: Perhaps the least credible contribution comes from John Severn, one of Dave Hann's supporters in Manchester AFA. He repeats the falsehood that Red Action forced AFA to abandon the streets in favour of 'electoralism', rather than it being the BNP who decided to leave the battlefield first. A ceasefire soldier whose own contribution to AFA was, according to his own description, less than glorious. Perhaps a bit of 'that old Red Action discipline' might have served John well in the only other major AFA event that he recalls? The man who rails against Red Action for abandoning the streets made the trip down to London for the Battle of Waterloo only to be nicked by police before the event, carrying a lump of cannabis in his pocket. He didn't strike a blow for anti-fascism all day, he was in a police cell on a possession of drugs charge. 

An objective editor with no political or personal axe to grind against Red Action or AFA would have deleted this story out of sheer embarrassment, but as it is one of the few references to AFA's greatest street triumph by a person who was opposed to Red Action, it is included.


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## Red Storm (Jan 14, 2013)

framed said:


> I bought the Kindle edition and after a quick scan-through, I am now going through it again in order to review it for TAL.
> 
> The eye-witness accounts from history are a good read and lend it an air of authenticity.
> 
> ...



Looking forward to reading what you write. I'm writing up my thoughts at the moment

Re: the kindle version. Are you getting a lot of these 'inci-dent', 'how-ever', 'bl-ah' in mid sentence?


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## framed (Jan 14, 2013)

I've edited and added to that post now. 

Yes, there's a lot of unnecessarily hyphenated words in the Kindle version.


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## The39thStep (Jan 14, 2013)

Not sure that Renton draws any political lessons from the book at all


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## framed (Jan 14, 2013)

Btw, the book also includes one of the best anecdotal accounts of AFA activities that I've read. It comes from 'Sean Geoghan' who I suspect is a poster here. His accounts of the harassment of Ian Stuart Donaldson and other stories make for excellent and entertaining reading.


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## bignose1 (Jan 14, 2013)

I hate people who use hyphen-ated words


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## ayatollah (Jan 14, 2013)

Just skimmed through my Kindle edition of "Physical Resistance - A hundred years of Anti-fascism" . Well worth getting via Kindle ( possibly the reading format of the future for better or worse) - because you can get it TODAY, instantly - rather than on the release date for the book of 25th January - and Kindle download is £6 - rather than £12 for the book !

I think Hann's partner Louis Purbrick has done a really wonderful job in pulling together this excellent multi activist oral history of anti fascism book from the late Dave Hann's interviews and research. The book is very good indeed - a must for any anti fascist to read. I particularly enjoyed the recollections stuff by old comrade,Mick O'Farrell . A really good spread of activist recollections going waaaaaaay back to the 1920's  - it really makes one feel part of an honourable historical  tradition.

 Also good to see  just how "across the Left spectrum" the role in opposing fascism physically has been at different times and different places. Great stuff . We all probably fast forwarded to the particular era of activity in which we were active -- I did anyway !  Given the long historical spread of the book there is certainly something for everyone .

Though  I have my lawyers ready to demand a retraction of the dastardly inaccuracy that the term "Squad" arose first in London with Mickey Fenn's "team" in 1977 . "Squad" is an entirely copyrighted brand name belonging to us Manchester chaps thankyou very much -- as Tilzey will confirm...and all youse groupings that  used it since  owe us big bucks in royalties !


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## gawkrodger (Jan 14, 2013)

where can I buy this in book form?

edit: Obviously not out yet then!


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## audiotech (Jan 14, 2013)

I ordered the book before Xmas from Amazon, delivery date 29th January.

Others to ponder.


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## chilango (Jan 15, 2013)

I have a copy of No Retreat that is going in my cull of books. If anyone wants it PM me or it'll be in the Oxfam box in a week or two.


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## Red Storm (Jan 15, 2013)

I'll never understand how someone can get rid of a book


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## Delroy Booth (Jan 15, 2013)

Red Storm said:


> I'll never understand how someone can give away a book


 
If your roof isn't being held up by towers of knackered 2nd hand penguin paperbacks then you've failed at life imo.


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## malatesta32 (Jan 15, 2013)

Red Storm said:


> I'll never understand how someone can get rid of a book


 
lack of space, moving and having to schlep them across town. the fact that some of em are really embarassing. mainly moving though!


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## The39thStep (Jan 15, 2013)

chilango said:


> I have a copy of No Retreat that is going in my cull of books. If anyone wants it PM me or it'll be in the Oxfam box in a week or two.


 
Bignose will remember when The Junction  were playing away at a Sunday football game he was injured and went for a walk around . Went into a charity shop and found some book that had  details of the squads arrest in Manchester?


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## Joe Reilly (Jan 15, 2013)

framed said:


> I was a bit disappointed with Mick O'Farrell's contribution, _edit_, a lot of the old stories and anecdotes are there, but in conclusion he appears to concur with Purbrick (_I assume that this is Louise's opinion of RA because I never heard or read Dave express his disagreements in these terms_) and the oft-repeated myths about Red Action's membership in terms of race and gender. Mick moans about the political deterioration of Red Action as a reason for his split with the group. I joined RA not long after Mick had left and I strongly disagree with his estimation of the organisation. If anything, the politics and theoretical positions of Red Action were further developed in his absence.
> 
> Then again, I suppose if someone else who was also there had already told all my best anecdotes in another book, I'd be pissed off too.


 
The real reason MO'F left RA in around '88 was the adoption by the annual two day conference of the central thesis of _'The Making of Red Action' _which Red Storm has archived on his site. Distilled this was the rejection of the Left as being 'neither working class nor revolutionary' and the consequences that followed that conclusion. Mick and a small number of acolytes (none of them original members as implied by Renton) felt that RA was drifting toward outright anarchism as a result, when what it proved to be was an instinctive 'drift' toward the democratic element explicit in the writings of Marx and Engels and a rejection of the top down Leninist orthodoxies. MO'F was for one reason or another drifting in the opposite direction, so having lost the argument he left. The role RA played in the initiation of AFA in 1985 apart, the most significant political and organisational developments did as you point out happen after MO'F effectively retired from front line action.


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## Smokeandsteam (Jan 15, 2013)

Joe Reilly said:


> The real reason MO'F left RA in around '88 was the adoption by the annual two day conference of the central thesis of _'The Making of Red Action' _which Red Storm has archived on his site. Distilled this was the rejection of the Left as being 'neither working class nor revolutionary' and the consequences that followed that conclusion. .


 
The Making of Red Action is a brilliant read by the way. It's instructive to read some of the points made_ in 1988_ about the compostion of the left and its orientation and consider what has changed/been learnt since.

It should be widely read.


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## Red Storm (Jan 15, 2013)

Smokeandsteam said:


> The Making of Red Action is a brilliant read by the way. It's instructive to read some of the points made_ in 1988_ about the compostion of the left and its orientation and consider what has changed/been learnt since.
> 
> It should be widely read.


 
Agreed. I read it sat in Whitworth Park on a boiling hot day, laughing at the in your face lines. Good day .

Revolutionary Front are translating it into Swedish last I heard.


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## Red Storm (Jan 15, 2013)

I don't remember learning that Dave was in a leading role nationally with AFA like Renton says. I know he was key in Manchester AFA but nationally?


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## framed (Jan 15, 2013)

Red Storm said:


> I don't remember learning that Dave was in a leading role nationally with AFA like Renton says. I know he was key in Manchester AFA but nationally?


 
Dave would have attended Red Action National Council meetings as one of the reps from Manchester, I was at most of these after 1990 representing Glasgow RA. I don't recall Dave ever being very vocal at NC meetings.

I remember a discussion over the IWCA, which I think took place at an AFA National Committee, where Manchester AFA presented an alternative proposal and Dave spoke to it. From what I recall, it was a mish-mash of one-issue lefty campaigns and stewarding duties for AFA that Dave proposed linking up as some kind of alternative strategy to the IWCA proposal of going straight to the working class and formulating a strategy based on their needs.

I may be misrepresenting Dave and Manchester AFA here as I can't remember the details of his proposal, but it'd be handy to have that to compare with the IWCA proposal at the same meeting. Do you remember that Joe (Reilly) and is there a copy of the Manchester/Dave proposal still around?

Pretty sure that it was an AFA NC and not a RA NC where this discussion took place, but time and memory might have fused some of these meetings together.


----------



## Red Storm (Jan 15, 2013)

Also, I'm slightly miffed that Manchester Anti-Fascist Alliance was mentioned without asking if it was okay, as it was about something which happened not long ago. Not too big of a deal though.


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## malatesta32 (Jan 15, 2013)

agreed with the gist of this. having downloaded a lot of red action stuff for research i got to say the we are RA and the making of are both essential reading and well written. there is an argument for a best of RA as some of the reports on the fash are laugh out loud. the mix of this with the theory stuff is pretty engaging. mind you, i dont have to download it all!


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## ayatollah (Jan 15, 2013)

framed said:


> Dave would have attended Red Action National Council meetings as one of the reps from Manchester, I was at most of these after 1990 representing Glasgow RA. I don't recall Dave ever being very vocal at NC meetings.
> 
> I remember a discussion over the IWCA, which I think took place at an AFA National Committee, where Manchester AFA presented an alternative proposal and Dave spoke to it. From what I recall, it was a mish-mash of one-issue lefty campaigns and stewarding duties for AFA that Dave proposed linking up as some kind of alternative strategy to the IWCA proposal of going straight to the working class and formulating a strategy based on their needs.
> 
> ...


 
Both Mick o'farrell, and myself, were obviously long, long,  gone from AFA by the time of the organisation-sundering arguments sparked by RA's proposition over its future direction in the 90's . But having read through the rival "takes" on events put forward in No Retreat, Btf, and now Physical Resistance, I can't for the life of me understand  (as a founder member myself of AFA, and on its initial  National Steering Group)  why RA ever thought it appropriate to lobby for AFA (as a classic  single issue, anti fascist direct action, campaigning group - based on  a limited  united front with a number of different independent political groups) , to itself become essentially  a multi-issue, POLITICAL PARTY. It's surely as if the SWP at the height of the ANL MK I suddenly started lobbying for the ANL (with its much more diverse organisational membership admittedly) to adopt its SWP Trotskyist  programme and become a part of  "the Revolutionery Party" ? It was bound to end in tears. It was bound to split  AFA asunder.

Why did you ever think that  the anarchist components of the AFA network in particular, were  going to buy in wholesale to the distinctive "localist" IWCA ("Filling the Vacuum" ) political worldview and strategy  ? Especially as this involved declaring AFA's entire  campaigning anti fascist work essentially redundant. I can therefore understand why so many anarchists are still bitter about  RA's role at that time. They obviously DIDN'T think "it was all over" with the fascists -and appear to be still bravely  fighting em in their various current guises today.  Thinking YOUR own particular political strategy is the only possibly  correct one is of course a feature of all political movements -  but rather than campaigning  in AFA for a completely unrealistic organisational adoption of the "Filling the Vacuum" strategy - shouldn't RA just have made its position clear,wound up RA, left AFA, and got on with building the IWCA "on the landings"  ? Anyone in AFA who wanted to join the IWCA could then have done so, and the remaining people in the AFA Network could have got on with anti fascist campaigning without all the internal argy bargy ?


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## framed (Jan 15, 2013)

ayatollah said:


> Both Mick o'farrell, and myself, were obviously long, long, gone from AFA by the time of the organisation-sundering arguments sparked by RA's proposition over its future direction in the 90's . But having read through the rival "takes" on events put forward in No Retreat, Btf, and now Physical Resistance, I can't for the life of me understand (as a founder member myself of AFA, and on its initial National Steering Group) why RA ever thought it appropriate to lobby for AFA (as a classic single issue, anti fascist direct action, campaigning group - based on a limited united front with a number of different independent political groups) , to itself become essentially a multi-issue, POLITICAL PARTY. It's surely as if the SWP at the height of the ANL MK I suddenly started lobbying for the ANL (with its much more diverse organisational membership admittedly) to adopt its SWP Trotskyist programme and become a part of "the Revolutionery Party" ? It was bound to end in tears. It was bound to split AFA asunder.
> 
> Why did you ever think that the anarchist components of the AFA network in particular, were going to buy in wholesale to the distinctive "localist" IWCA ("Filling the Vacuum" ) political worldview and strategy ? Especially as this involved declaring AFA's entire campaigning anti fascist work essentially redundant. I can therefore understand why so many anarchists are still bitter about RA's role at that time. They obviously DIDN'T think "it was all over" with the fascists -and appear to be still bravely fighting em in their various current guises today. Thinking YOUR own particular political strategy is the only possibly correct one is of course a feature of all political movements - but rather than campaigning in AFA for a completely unrealistic organisational adoption of the "Filling the Vacuum" strategy - shouldn't RA just have made its position clear,wound up RA, left AFA, and got on with building the IWCA "on the landings" ? Anyone in AFA who wanted to join the IWCA could then have done so, and the remaining people in the AFA Network could have got on with anti fascist campaigning without all the internal argy bargy ?


 

Is anarchism still 'bitter' about RA allegedly winding up AFA? It certainly wouldn't appear to be the case in the East and West Midlands where there has recently been a reappraisal by anarchists previously associated with AFA, who rejected the IWCA strategy at the time, got involved with Antifa and who have in the last couple of years now returned of their own volition to the debate over the 'Filling The Vacuum' document.

Why wouldn't we _"__think that the anarchist components of the AFA network in particular, were going to buy in wholesale to the distinctive "localist" IWCA..." _? Electoralism apart, anarchist thinking and practice would be very much geared towards a "localist" strategy; promoting co-operatism, activism and resistance at a local level. It is you who appear to be unaware of anarchist pragmatism and the practice of theory.

AFA wasn't a political party, it always remained a one-issue movement committed to the principle of _'ideological and physical confrontation of fascism'_. The IWCA strategy was a proposal that recognised the need for the ideological opposition to fascism to be developed in working class areas as an alternative to the BNP's 'hearts and minds' electoral campaign. That proposal came from Red Action, one component part of AFA. It was democratically debated within AFA and the IWCA strategy endorsed by a majority. AFA was not closed down, as is implied in Hann's work and it certainly continued to function effectively, well after 1992 when Renton claims the 'political deterioration' set in. As has already been intimated here _Fighting Talk_ magazine was published up to 2001 and reported on the activities of AFA branches and regions. There was always the option for local groups to carry on with normal anti-fascist activities and indeed there were _'RA majority'_ branches like Glasgow and _'anarchist majority'_ branches like Edinburgh who agreed with the IWCA strategy but who also continued with day-to-day AFA work because the local situation necessitated it.

The idea that it was as straightforward as 'anarchos v reds' is just a complete misreading of the whole debate around the IWCA and the 'Filling The Vacuum' document. I was one of those inside RA who had misgivings about the IWCA, not because I disagreed with the strategy, but because as an ex-member and youth organiser of Militant I had already been involved in electoral campaigns, which had seen the Milies get members of their organisation elected as Labour councilors in Glasgow (this was pre-SML and SSP). I knew the amount of work that would be required and I was also acutely aware of the human toll of such electoral campaigns, with a high rate of 'burn out' of good working class activists. I did not believe that RA, if it were left on its own to implement the IWCA strategy, was a large enough or strong enough organisation to cope politically with the 'burn out' of activists that might be a by-product of the IWCA's electoral strategy.


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## Joe Reilly (Jan 15, 2013)

Red Storm said:


> I don't remember learning that Dave was in a leading role nationally with AFA like Renton says. I know he was key in Manchester AFA but nationally?


 
Again for self-serving reasons undoubtedly, Renton is 'misunderstanding' Hann's role in order to demonstrate his thesis that physical force anti-fascism is essentially unethical given that 'violence had no place in our [anti-fascists] world' etc. So in boosting Hann onto the national stage he is hoping to demonstrate the pathology at the heart of, Red Action's in particular, existence. To Renton and others Hann was a true hero brought low by lesser beings.

In truth, the one and only time he, Hann clambered onto the national stage - 'ordering' a national AFA mobilisation to deal with the expected counter demo to the Bloody Sunday march in Manchester it proved to be unconstitutional. Regions, much less branches, never mind individual could not order, for obvious reasons, national mobilisations. That he subsequently played no role on the day, staying resolutely within the body of the march he was meant to be protecting, (due to the robbery charges) left more than one head-scratching at what he thought he was doing. Without any fuss JH and DC (who was drafted in from London)picked up the pieces and turned what might have been a fiasco into something of a triumph on the day. All, of course would become clear just a couple of months later, when he coughed to the robbery charges. But we have of course been over this many times before.


Even in Manchester, Dave worked in tandem with GM and Carol, and then later JH. And it was only through cooperating with DAM in Liverpool/Doncaster and independent anarchists in Bolton, that Dave and RA had an influence regionally. So to try and re-package it all as a one man operation regionally, never mind nationally, is just simply nuts.


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## Joe Reilly (Jan 15, 2013)

ayatollah said:


> Both Mick o'farrell, and myself, were obviously long, long, gone from AFA by the time of the organisation-sundering arguments sparked by RA's proposition over its future direction in the 90's . But having read through the rival "takes" on events put forward in No Retreat, Btf, and now Physical Resistance, I can't for the life of me understand (as a founder member myself of AFA, and on its initial National Steering Group) why RA ever thought it appropriate to lobby for AFA (as a classic single issue, anti fascist direct action, campaigning group - based on a limited united front with a number of different independent political groups) , to itself become essentially a multi-issue, POLITICAL PARTY. It's surely as if the SWP at the height of the ANL MK I suddenly started lobbying for the ANL (with its much more diverse organisational membership admittedly) to adopt its SWP Trotskyist programme and become a part of "the Revolutionery Party" ? It was bound to end in tears. It was bound to split AFA asunder.
> 
> Why did you ever think that the anarchist components of the AFA network in particular, were going to buy in wholesale to the distinctive "localist" IWCA ("Filling the Vacuum" ) political worldview and strategy ? Especially as this involved declaring AFA's entire campaigning anti fascist work essentially redundant. I can therefore understand why so many anarchists are still bitter about RA's role at that time. They obviously DIDN'T think "it was all over" with the fascists -and appear to be still bravely fighting em in their various current guises today. Thinking YOUR own particular political strategy is the only possibly correct one is of course a feature of all political movements - but rather than campaigning in AFA for a completely unrealistic organisational adoption of the "Filling the Vacuum" strategy - shouldn't RA just have made its position clear,wound up RA, left AFA, and got on with building the IWCA "on the landings" ? Anyone in AFA who wanted to join the IWCA could then have done so, and the remaining people in the AFA Network could have got on with anti fascist campaigning without all the internal argy bargy ?


 
Unless that post is actually meant to be a wind up - in that case you got me - (or alternatively you are just dotin' in your old age) it is truly remarkable that with the benefit of hindsight and access to more than two years of sometimes intense discussion on here, that is your honest take on events, I have to say, with hand on heart, you did anti-fascism a great service in jacking it when you did.


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## Spanky Longhorn (Jan 15, 2013)

it's a shame he hasn't done us a great service by not posting on here any more


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## malatesta32 (Jan 16, 2013)

and here we go ... again.


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## Pickman's model (Jan 16, 2013)

I got 'physical resistance' yesterday and at first glance it's a decent read


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## Pickman's model (Jan 16, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> and here we go ... again.


Round and round and round it goes, where it stops no one knows


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## bignose1 (Jan 16, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> Round and round and round it goes, where it stops no one knows


Im finding it hard to resist...but I gave a promise not to get into heated stuff...even on a review level and Im inclined to respect it. Thats why Ive been posting shite on the Tesco horse meat thread instead....and I feel much better for it...come on if I can any one can...its my therapy and now as Im officially u/e, following 10 weeks gardening leave and having yesterday banked my pay off (I must say that it has helped as well) Looking for a job has started in official terms(JSA wtf) but Im getting into town shortly to get some new clobber and a le creuset tagine.


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## Spanky Longhorn (Jan 16, 2013)

We use our le creuset tagine at least once a month, I love proper Morrocan lamb


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## bignose1 (Jan 16, 2013)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> We use our le creuset tagine at least once a month, I love proper Morrocan lamb


Nice one spanky any decent recipes pm me. I make my own pastes and did a lovely neck of lamb dish morrocan style in a mates tagine. We both lost jobs around the same time and have been cooking a lot...keeps us out of our local Spoons. Going to try an ox tail thingy at weekend.
I make a sort of paste..Chamoulla? from scratch


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## bignose1 (Jan 16, 2013)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> We use our le creuset tagine at least once a month, I love proper Morrocan lamb


I bet youve got a volcanic one...


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## bignose1 (Jan 16, 2013)

Ok sorry I think were going off at a taginent


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## DaveCinzano (Jan 16, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> Looking for a job has started in official terms(JSA wtf) but Im getting into town shortly to get some new clobber and a le creuset tagine.





Spanky Longhorn said:


> We use our le creuset tagine at least once a month, I love proper Morrocan lamb


 
I don't know about their tagines, but my casserole from them is great. And they replaced the original one after it got broken, no quibble


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## DaveCinzano (Jan 16, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> Ok sorry I think were going off at a taginent


Maghreb's up


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## Red Storm (Jan 16, 2013)

Glasgow Anti-Fascists leaflet which I archived has been tumbled (?) quiet a lot recently


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## malatesta32 (Jan 16, 2013)

sidetrack but what's the advantage of a tagine over a normal casserole?


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## malatesta32 (Jan 16, 2013)

Red Storm said:


> Glasgow Anti-Fascists leaflet which I archived has been tumbled (?) quiet a lot recently


 
ha ha an excellent vintage example of cut and paste as in blunt scissors, pritt stick and photocopier! there is an amusing RA account in one of the longer pieces about front room editing and the hazards thereof!


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## connollyist (Jan 16, 2013)

Framed is that one you put together?


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## framed (Jan 16, 2013)

connollyist said:


> Framed is that one you put together?


 
That was our first leaflet, it was put out in the name of GAF, which was the forerunner of the AFA branch in Glasgow, before we had made contact with the national organisation. From what I remember, it was me and an anarchist woman T who did the layout together, cutting out bits from newspapers, using some stickers we made ourselves and doing the text on the other side on an old typewriter. 

This was before yer fancy computers and desk top publishing programmes.


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## Red Storm (Jan 16, 2013)

framed said:


> That was our first leaflet, it was put out in the name of GAF, which was the forerunner of the AFA branch in Glasgow, before we had made contact with the national organisation. From what I remember, it was me and an anarchist woman T who did the layout together, cutting out bits from newspapers, using some stickers we made ourselves and doing the text on the other side on an old typewriter.
> 
> This was before yer fancy computers and desk top publishing programmes.


 
The other side is on the archive too.

*http://afaarchive.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/glasgow-afa-about-leaflet.pdf*


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## framed (Jan 16, 2013)

Red Storm said:


> The other side is on the archive too.
> 
> *http://afaarchive.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/glasgow-afa-about-leaflet.pdf*


 
Fuxx sake, we even spelt 'fascist' as _'facist'_ on the heading on the other side of the leaflet. We were young and I blame T, cos she did the typing.

 I'll do a piece about the anti-fascist archive for the TAL Blog this weekend to encourage a few more hits for the site.


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## Joe Reilly (Jan 16, 2013)

framed said:


> Fuxx sake, we even spelt 'fascist' as _'facist'_ on the heading on the other side of the leaflet.


 
I actual fact 'facist' was an extremely popular in the early RA's too.


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## framed (Jan 16, 2013)

Joe Reilly said:


> I actual fact 'facist' was an extremely popular in the early RA's too.


 
It must have been the common thread that bonded us Joe, I always hated *faces* too...


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## Joe Reilly (Jan 16, 2013)

framed said:


> Dave would have attended Red Action National Council meetings as one of the reps from Manchester, I was at most of these after 1990 representing Glasgow RA. I don't recall Dave ever being very vocal at NC meetings.
> 
> I remember a discussion over the IWCA, which I think took place at an AFA National Committee, where Manchester AFA presented an alternative proposal and Dave spoke to it. From what I recall, it was a mish-mash of one-issue lefty campaigns and stewarding duties for AFA that Dave proposed linking up as some kind of alternative strategy to the IWCA proposal of going straight to the working class and formulating a strategy based on their needs.
> 
> ...


 
My one memory of DH contributing in the way you describe was at a national conference most likely in the 1994-95 'season' when in response to detailed proposal possibly around 'The Big Picture' doc he and GM came up with some sort of flibberty gibberty hodge podge of flimsiness that was immediately leapt on and savaged in matchless style by - your good self!

 For some reason I was out of the hall at the time and the discussion had moved on when I returned, and I only heard about it when people were discussing it in awed tones in the bar afterwards.



Ps: one thing a lot of people misunderstand about RA is that while democratic discussion was intrinsic to how policy was produced, sometime requiring a very disciplined chair, this didn't mean that democracy meant settling for some middling compromise in the end. The reverse was often the case. So you had to bring your A game ...otherwise...


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## framed (Jan 16, 2013)

Joe Reilly said:


> My one memory of DH contributing in the way you describe was at a national conference most likely in the 1994-95 'season' when in response to detailed proposal possibly around 'The Big Picture' doc he and GM came up with some sort of flibberty gibberty hodge podge of flimsiness that was immediately leapt on and savaged in matchless style by - your good self!
> 
> For some reason I was out of the hall at the time and the discussion had moved on when I returned, and I only heard about it when people were discussing it in awed tones in the bar afterwards.
> 
> ...


 
Yes, I remember the RA National Council meetings, there was a lot of robust internal discussion at times, but I always felt that it sharpened us politically and the more theoretical discussions around new strategies pushed people to think outside of the previous 'norms' of the left.

As for that memory of mine, it must be the discussion at National Conference over 'The Big Picture' document that is the source of my confused recollection. I do remember speaking against their proposals, but I can't remember the exact details of what their 'alternative' amounted to, which suggests that it wasn't up to much.


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## Porkmeister (Jan 17, 2013)

Joe Reilly said:


> My one memory of DH contributing in the way you describe was at a national conference most likely in the 1994-95 'season' when in response to detailed proposal possibly around 'The Big Picture' doc he and GM came up with some sort of flibberty gibberty hodge podge of flimsiness that was immediately leapt on and savaged in matchless style by - your good self!
> 
> For some reason I was out of the hall at the time and the discussion had moved on when I returned, and I only heard about it when people were discussing it in awed tones in the bar afterwards.
> 
> ...


 
The reason why you missed it is cos it didnt take long!! I think Manchester always had at least 1 each year that took a doing, I can think of a couple of other occasions but that one was more than a wee bit out there!!


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## Red Storm (Jan 17, 2013)

Joe Reilly said:


> I actual fact 'facist' was an extremely popular in the early RA's too.



It's all the way through the 1988 We Are Red Action


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## Red Storm (Jan 17, 2013)

I've wrote up my thoughts on Renton's review and the book. 

To be honest its one of them where you write something up and then think have I just wrote utter bollocks for the sake of writing it


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## framed (Jan 17, 2013)

Red Storm said:


> I've wrote up my thoughts on Renton's review and the book.
> 
> To be honest its one of them where you write something up and then think have I just wrote utter bollocks for the sake of writing it


 
I think your notes and comments on the book so far are very fair RS.

One point in particular stands out to me and you've highlighted it yourself: The reference to _'AFA's support for the IRA'. _This point is a deliberate falsification intentionally designed to further confuse, imho. AFA did not support the IRA, it had no position whatsoever on the question of Ireland. Red Action, on the other hand, outwith AFA, did support Irish republican organisations and support groups. For us, support work for Irish republicanism was separate to our work for AFA. However, for some others in AFA it became a bone of contention, largely in retrospect, it has to be said...

AFA would go to wherever the fascists were in order to confront them, that sometimes meant organising AFA squads around republican marches, because those marches were a focal point for fascist attacks.

It is not Red Action members who confused membership of AFA with membership of Red Action and/or support for the IRA, rather it is their opponents on the left who suffered from an inability to politically distinguish between organisations and the political objectives of anti-fascism.

IMHO the real objection of the 'objectors' is to Red Action... full stop. It is Red Action's leadership of AFA that they object to, despite the successful strategies for AFA that were developed and advanced by Red Action, not to mention the number of RA personnel who put themselves and their liberty on the line in the _'physical resistance'_ to fascism.


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## Pickman's model (Jan 17, 2013)

Red Storm said:


> I've wrote up my thoughts on Renton's review and the book.
> 
> To be honest its one of them where you write something up and then think have I just wrote utter bollocks for the sake of writing it


i think you make a number of good points well.


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## Joe Reilly (Jan 17, 2013)

Red Storm said:


> I've wrote up my thoughts on Renton's review and the book.
> 
> To be honest its one of them where you write something up and then think have I just wrote utter bollocks for the sake of writing it


 
No not really. I think its difficult to tackle head on - to take entirely seriously - when there is so obviously an not very well hidden anti-RA agenda is like a lattice through it. That RA is not even included in the index is proof of that. The talk of 'hitmen' (reminiscent of the SWP description of 'gangsters molls') and 'foot-soldiers' and the supposed political and 'social divisions' between them is like something you'd read in the Telegraph or the Mail. Indeed the success of AFA as BFT points out was that such fissures were never allowed to grow. One of the primary reasons for this was that the political 'organisers' were invariably either first ones through the door or the last ones out of it. At the same time at branch or committee level they had no more rights than anyone else. For new members this could be disconcerting.

On one occassion a branch saw a sudden spurt in membership, with a number of them being known to each other. So there they were happily discussing and suggesting policy without any apparent oversight for a number of weeks until more senior members began returning from 'the front' ie East London. When one of the latter who had taken his seat inconspiciously at the back raised a query about this or that proposal (which ran totally counter to AFA policy incidentally) there were some murmers of aggreement.

This got the chair's back up. 'That's all very well but we've been discussing this for weeks now and no one has ever seen you before!' which was greeted with delighted laughter by the less inexperienced who knew the individual whose credibility the chair had challenged, was one the best known (by fash and plod rather than the Left I mean) anti-fascists in the entire country. In other words though the leadership didn't wear pips the leading political organisers and the main security stewards were generally one and the same.


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## Red Storm (Jan 18, 2013)

Found this today on the Bob from Brockley blog.



> Most recently, on Facebook various people chatting about the troubles in the SWP, Toby Abse reminded folks of comrade Martin Smith's closeness to antisemite Gilad Atzmon (documented here), which provoked Smith first into attacking Toby, then into calling serious hardcore anti-Zionists like Roland Rance "closet Zionists". Funny if it weren't so sad. Anyway, along the way, he made lots of comments about his prowess as an anti-fascist streetfighter, citing his involvement in AFA, and calling Rance a "keyboard warrior". Rance replies: "In fact, I organised the first AFA conference in Bradford thirty years ago. We had stewards around the town to prevent a possible fascist attack, but had to call them back to conference in order to protect members of the local Asian Youth Movement from physical attacks by members of Red Action. I know all-too-well about racism masquerading as leftist anti-fascism."



More to read here.


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## Red Storm (Jan 18, 2013)

Thanks for the comments

I might use the archive to see if there are any former AFA members or people around AFA to recount their stories regarding the IRA and social/strategical divisions within AFA.


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## framed (Jan 18, 2013)

Red Storm said:


> Thanks for the comments
> 
> I might use the archive to see if there are any former AFA members or people around AFA to recount their stories regarding the IRA and social/strategical divisions within AFA.


 
Don't dig too deep will ya?


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## intersol32 (Jan 18, 2013)

Red Storm said:


> Thanks for the comments
> 
> I might use the archive to see if there are any former AFA members or people around AFA to recount their stories regarding the IRA and social/strategical divisions within AFA.


 
I'll try and get back to you over the weekend when I've collected my own personal thoughts and recollections on this. Hopefully it'll be of some use to you.

I'm pretty sure I gave Mal some stuff covering the same thing but it's still a worthwhile issue to cover again.


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## Joe Reilly (Jan 18, 2013)

Red Storm said:


> Found this today on the Bob from Brockley blog.
> 
> 
> 
> More to read here.


 
Brilliant! The old ones are the best. The organiser of the Bradford AFA conference was one Jeff Robinson. He did so with the express intention of winding AFA up and transform it into a more pliable safe and acceptable anti-racist organisation - without - RA. After the vote to approve the change was carried, it was pointed out that under his supervision only _one side_ of the hall was counted!

Having lost the subsequent vote he ordered a second vote which he lost by an even bigger margin. He then conspired to provoke a leading member of RA (who was indeed notoriously easy to provoke!) by employing a local Asian to pick a fight with him.  

Unbelievably he did his conspiring in the corridor during the break, where as I passed I caught the gist of it and arrived just in time to prevent a tear up between the targetted RA member and a large set Asian. The 'attack by RA on Bradford Asian Youth'  is what he had _planned_ to happen - but never did. As readers of _BTF_ will know he want onto to suspend RA anyway. The meeting was immediately declared inquorate. But an inquiry was ordered anyway into 'RA's conduct' during the count. Even more absurd allegations followed.

At the inquiry he vehemently protested his innocence in regard to complaints of his role in the protracted anti-RA inspired debacle at the conference. 'He had nothing but the deepest respect for RA generally ...but' etc. It was then that Liz Fekete (who has been mentioned on this thread before) read out a long rambling letter from the bould Jeffrey where he repeatedly asked for her support to enable him to rid AFA of the pernicious influence of RA - 'name your price' and so forth.

The rest is history. Though Jeffrey still seems determined to invent his own.


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## bignose1 (Jan 18, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> sidetrack but what's the advantage of a tagine over a normal casserole?


The shape....which is what its all about. The conical lid allows for the moisture to condensate and drip down. The rest is histgravy.


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## Joe Reilly (Jan 18, 2013)

Joe Reilly said:


> Brilliant! The old ones are the best. The organiser of the Bradford AFA conference was one Jeff Robinson. He did so with the express intention of winding AFA up and transform it into a more pliable safe and acceptable anti-racist organisation - without - RA. After the vote to approve the change was carried, it was pointed out that under his supervision only _one side_ of the hall was counted!
> 
> Having lost the subsequent vote he ordered a second vote which he lost by an even bigger margin. He then conspired to provoke a leading member of RA (who was indeed notoriously easy to provoke!) by employing a local Asian to pick a fight with him.
> 
> ...


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## bignose1 (Jan 19, 2013)

Just got a copy of The Fugitive...on Kimble


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## Red Storm (Jan 19, 2013)

intersol32 said:


> I'll try and get back to you over the weekend when I've collected my own personal thoughts and recollections on this. Hopefully it'll be of some use to you.
> 
> I'm pretty sure I gave Mal some stuff covering the same thing but it's still a worthwhile issue to cover again.



Cheers.

Hopefully the archive can collect peoples memories on a certain subject or general tales or memories.


----------



## audiotech (Jan 19, 2013)

Some years ago (before Reilly's era) I was active in Bradford, so the post above don't quite fit with my personal recollections of the individual mentioned. Therefore, I think it highly unlikely this person would involve himself in some of what's been posted here? Admittedly, some of the period spoken about I had by then moved away to find work, nevertheless, and to be specific, I'm prepared to consider my view of said person if there is any evidence presented of him 'conspiring to "provoke" in the "corridor"', as explicitly expressed? I do realise, this being an apparent "conspiracy", that any forth-coming evidence is remote.

Edit: Meantime, reading Hann's book (arrived earlier than expected), specifically chapter six, titled: "One, two, three and a bit, the National Front is a load of shit".


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## LiamO (Jan 20, 2013)

audiotech said:


> Some years ago *(before Reilly's era) *


 
What?! the 1960's?


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## audiotech (Jan 20, 2013)

1968 was a good year. 

Edit: Oh and 'World Cup Willy' back in '66.


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## LiamO (Jan 20, 2013)

Ah those were the days... jumpers for goalposts etc


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## audiotech (Jan 20, 2013)

Yer ma knitted.


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## intersol32 (Jan 20, 2013)

This is a reply to Red Storm's question about the social and political background of AFA activists. Obviously it's only based on my own experiences and observations from being active in the Midlands and Northern region throughout the nineties.

The political makeup of those in the East Midlands particularly, was that the majority of people were from an Anarchist background. For some reason or another many had been involved in the hunt sabbing and animal rights movement, added to this was a sort of informal social network that went beyond it to include those linked to Class War and other (usually short lived) local Anarchist groups. I'd say this was a definite strength, as it meant those who were later to become active in AFA had all known each other for many years and were quite used to the idea of physical confrontation (and the necessity for it) as well as handling themselves when it came to dealing with the cops.

It's worth adding that a few of those in East Midlands AFA were later to join Red Action. Myself included. On a personal level Class War and some similar groups were finding it difficult to move away from the old stereotype of crusty, dog-on-a-rope Anarchism. Internal debate had been rife within CW and attempts were made for people to take it more seriously as a group. This included the publication of an internal document ("Childhoods End") that later drew comparisons to the IWCA document "Filling the Vacuum" and actually came to many of the same conclusions. At the point when these discussions pretty much exhausted themselves, was when some of us left to join RA. A group that definitely wasn't hamstrung by associations with crusty punks, and could carry itself with some confidence.

I wouldn't claim that this wasn't viewed with suspicion by many Anarchist members of AFA. Especially as it seemed that the new Red Action members just happened to be the area contacts for East Mids AFA. Nevertheless, despite a few grumblings I'd like to think that everyone was still keen to focus on the task in hand. It didn't stop us from being effective as a local group in any shape or form.

As for class background, there were several people included in the group who were of Middle Class origin. If I remember correctly there was one girl who was the daughter of a High Court judge. All of them were valued members, and weren't afraid to muck-in when it came down to it. Although they all probably had to put up with a fair amount of friendly ribbing.

I'll add more or you can just PM me if there's any specific questions.


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## barney_pig (Jan 21, 2013)

Is childhoods end available online anywhere?


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## bignose1 (Jan 21, 2013)

LiamO said:


> Ah those were the days... jumpers for goalposts etc


 
Wally...(never buy an end terrace)


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## malatesta32 (Jan 21, 2013)

intersol32 said:


> I'll try and get back to you over the weekend when I've collected my own personal thoughts and recollections on this. Hopefully it'll be of some use to you.
> 
> I'm pretty sure I gave Mal some stuff covering the same thing but it's still a worthwhile issue to cover again.


 
yes you did. i have it saved somewhere but im at the butt n ben so cannae get access to it! 

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped..._near_Lochhill_-_geograph.org.uk_-_269792.jpg


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## intersol32 (Jan 21, 2013)

barney_pig said:


> Is childhoods end available online anywhere?


 
It's unlikely. I've trawled around for it a bit, as it was written sort of '91-'92 it's possible it was only ever presented in hard copy.

I don't think it was distributed as an official CW paper either. As I remember it coming from a couple of individual members and just handed around.


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## Red Storm (Jan 21, 2013)

intersol32 said:


> It's unlikely. I've trawled around for it a bit, as it was written sort of '91-'92 it's possible it was only ever presented in hard copy.
> 
> I don't think it was distributed as an official CW paper either. As I remember it coming from a couple of individual members and just handed around.


 
Only reference online I can find is: 





> *IWCA*
> 
> As the rest of the Left prove that change for them means no change at all, we should at least consider those who are presenting something a little different. One organisation worthy of note is the recently formed Independent Working Class Association, which came into existence in October 1995, with invites going out to all left groups to attend initial meetings. The IWCA's Declaration of Independence espouses sound, down-to-earth ideas on political organisation, it emphasises community and working class involvement and stresses the need for a radical alternative to Labour. The basic principle behind the IWCA was not what the working class can do for the IWCA, but what the working class can do for itself: this notion that ideas do not have to be given to people ready-packed in an ideology is itself a refreshing and positive step.
> With its aim of working class power in working class areas, the IWCA's politics on the surface seem to fit in well with Class War's, and appear to have been taken in part from our own 1993 political statement Childhood's End. But Class War's response has been mixed - some groups and individuals did attend the initial meetings, while others didn't. Over the years we'd seen several unlikely alliances come and go on the left, and there seemed no guarantee that this one would be any different - especially since its main sponsor was Red Action.
> ...



Source


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## Red Storm (Jan 21, 2013)

Is it's full name: Childhood's End: A review of "Escaping From Childishness: The Need For a Conserver Party" by Robert Johnston?


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## Joe Reilly (Jan 21, 2013)

audiotech said:


> Some years ago (before Reilly's era) I was active in Bradford, so the post above don't quite fit with my personal recollections of the individual mentioned. Therefore, I think it highly unlikely this person would involve himself in some of what's been posted here? Admittedly, some of the period spoken about I had by then moved away to find work, nevertheless, and to be specific, I'm prepared to consider my view of said person if there is any evidence presented of him 'conspiring to "provoke" in the "corridor"', as explicitly expressed? I do realise, this being an apparent "conspiracy", that any forth-coming evidence is remote.


 
So you think it unlikely 'this person would conspire to provoke in the corridor'.
Do you also think it unlikely that 'this person' colluded with others to change AFA into AntiRacist AntiFascist Action?
That as chair of the 1987 AFA conference he was involved in a ridiculous attempted rigging of the vote? That having lost the said vote [eventually eg 2out 3] he laid charges against [unidentified] Red Action members of making racist remarks? 
That he organised a meeting to which RA [and a host of other branches were not invited] in order to facilitate RA's suspension?  
That he canvassed by letter and phone for support for RA's _expulsion_. 
That he lied about this in the subsequent inquiry?
That he was denounced as a liar and a drunk at said inquiry by the chair, LF from the Institute of Race Relations, who read from one of his letters at the meeting?  
That the charges against RA were proven to be without foundation (as was the case with not dissimilar charges against CW the previous year)?
That it was he and his fellow conspirators [Islington ARAFA. Hull etc,] and - not RA - that left AFA?

So if as you say you find it impossible to believe in 'some of what's been posted on here', treat the list as a pick and mix and simply tick the aspects it is concievable he just might have engaged in.

Or when it comes down to it is it that you find it more politically congenial to believe that RA did actually attack members of Bradford Asian Youth Movement as 'Bob fron Brockley' states and that your old pal Jeff was therefore right all along ?


----------



## intersol32 (Jan 21, 2013)

Red Storm said:


> Is it's full name: Childhood's End: A review of "Escaping From Childishness: The Need For a Conserver Party" by Robert Johnston?


 
No. That's something different entirely. Although I'm not surprised that others have written articles with the same title ("Childhood's End" being a popular Science Fiction novel to boot).


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## intersol32 (Jan 21, 2013)

Red Storm said:


> Only reference online I can find is:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
This was the Class War "State of the Left in 1997" document written much later. It does mention Childhood's End at the beginning, but other than that it's not as well written and basically comprises of a slag-off of every other British leftie group at that time. The Red Action section is particularly bizarre and repeats the kind of anecdotal hearsay bollocks that was always doing the rounds in various Anarchist circles.


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## Joe Reilly (Jan 22, 2013)

intersol32 said:


> The Red Action section is particularly bizarre and repeats the kind of anecdotal hearsay bollocks that was always doing the rounds in various Anarchist circles.


 
Of course Red Action had differences with anarchist groups over the years, but probably no different to the disputes _between_ anarchists in terms of intensity, and also posed questions against anarchism as a philosophy and as implemented historically, but applied the same amount of rigour to Marxist-Leninism. And in spite pf working with DAM formally and informally from the early 1980's and suspending itself from AFA after the _real_ anti-anarchist witch hunt against Class War, led by Gerry Gable, the rumour persisted that RA remained _uniquely_ anti-anarchist.

Given the carefully orchesterated hysteria against the planned publication of BTF by anarchist publisher Freedom Press, that led to tremendous pressure from without and it must be said within the collective, it says everything that the publishers still decided to launch BTF at the Anarchist Bookfair. 
Particulalry as one BTF opponent had put it colourfully - 'bring your stab-vests'.

So on the day there was naturally enough, after all the fanfair - uproar? No so much. In total there were according to the FP bookstall - a total of two complaints. One from an anarchist with according to an FP seller, a history of mental health problems, and the other from - Lousie Purbick editor of No Retreat, and co-author of Physical Resistance. Who turned on the waterworks. Again.

It should also be remembered that the the most virulent opposition in the discussion about the RA/London AFA proposals in the mid-1990's ,was led not by anarchists, as some posters mistakenly repeat on here, but by Searchlight operatives, some of whom went so far as to pose as anarchists, (until unmasked) in order to further fan the flames.  On the Indymedia thread the 'unmaskers'  were tabbed 'bad anarchists' by one presumes the unmasked - the very people who had stitched up CW in order to cleanse anti-fascism of all and any anarchist influence. 

So given the almost entirely artifical nature of the supposed Anarchist v RA 30 year conflict, and what has recently been confirmed about state infiltration into far less committed groups than AFA, it rather make you wonder about the pension pots of the more committted anti-RA haters doesn't it.


----------



## bignose1 (Jan 22, 2013)

Joe Reilly said:


> Of course Red Action had differences with anarchist groups over the years, but probably no different to the disputes _between_ anarchists in terms of intensity, and also posed questions against anarchism as a philosophy and as implemented historically, but applied the same amount of rigour to Marxist-Leninism. And in spite pf working with DAM formally and informally from the early 1980's and suspending itself from AFA after the _real_ anti-anarchist witch hunt against Class War, led by Gerry Gable, the rumour persisted that RA remained _uniquely_ anti-anarchist.
> 
> Given the carefully orchesterated hysteria against the planned publication of BTF by anarchist publisher Freedom Press, that led to tremendous pressure from without and it must be said within the collective, it says everything that the publishers still decided to launch BTF at the Anarchist Bookfair.
> Particulalry as one BTF opponent had put it colourfully - 'bring your stab-vests'.
> ...


 
Wanker


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## past caring (Jan 22, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> Wanker


 
This is about your level when faced with some content that requires actual political engagement.

Speaks volumes.


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## audiotech (Jan 22, 2013)

Joe Reilly said:


> So you think it unlikely 'this person would conspire to provoke in the corridor'.
> Do you also think it unlikely that 'this person' colluded with others to change AFA into AntiRacist AntiFascist Action?
> That as chair of the 1987 AFA conference he was involved in a ridiculous attempted rigging of the vote? That having lost the said vote [eventually eg 2out 3] he laid charges against [unidentified] Red Action members of making racist remarks?
> That he organised a meeting to which RA [and a host of other branches were not invited] in order to facilitate RA's suspension?
> ...


 
Not an "old pal" as it happens and as I thought no evidence forth-coming for the claim of a 'conspiracy to provoke in the corridor'. As for the rest? Pretty damming. If true of course? Wonder what version I'd get from the other party named in this catalogue of assertions?


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## LiamO (Jan 22, 2013)

audiotech said:


> Wonder what version I'd get from the other party named in this catalogue of assertions?


 
I'll tell you two things for free.

1. Liz Fekete had many an issue with Red Action. She never let that stop her being a principled anti-Fascist. She was/is straight as a die. Why don't you get in touch with her and ask her what happened?

2. Apart from the fact that Joe is also dead straight... do you really think that he would post up something that could leave him open to ridicule?

Shame you did not think the same way before posting your challenge to the veracity of his comments. Do hurry back with your findings.

BTW. I wasn't in Bradford for this event but I do remember well the first-hand accounts of what happened... and the ripple-out.


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## audiotech (Jan 22, 2013)

Alright, let's say I do accept the version of events as is (this usually with a lower degree of evidence to back up their claims than anyone else posting on this forum), what of it after how many years is it now? Why the raking-up of this stuff over and over, what purpose does it achieve, particularly with regard to an organisation that no longer exists? To be blunt, it strikes me of someone continually stroking their ego.


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## LiamO (Jan 22, 2013)

audiotech said:


> blah blah... Why the raking-up of this stuff over and over


 
What a stupid question. You can't see what prompted it? read the fuckin thread

...and besides, there are perfectly legitimate (and more to the point _current_) political reasons for refusing to let gobshites like Robinson re-write history.


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## audiotech (Jan 22, 2013)

Is Robinson writing anything? I could understand if he was here posting another version of history? As far as I'm aware he ain't?

Edit: OK, someone called 'Rance'? Not clear who this is, could be anyone?


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## past caring (Jan 22, 2013)

'If I could find a white man who had the nigger sound and the nigger feel, I could make a billion dollars.'

Albert Goldman is no longer around to perpetuate that particular lie (Sam Philips, according to Marion Keisker, never used the word 'nigger' in his life) but it doesn't stop people continuing to believe it.


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## audiotech (Jan 22, 2013)

dp


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## bignose1 (Jan 23, 2013)

past caring said:


> This is about your level when faced with some content that requires actual political engagement.
> 
> Speaks volumes.


You pal miss the point everytime....I choose not to engage with this person on a political level as his contemptous vitriolic attacks make it futile. Just because he fannies up what he says/believes doesnt make a one word reply redundant.Read what he says ...and get off your fucking knees ....your sycophancy is truly pathetic .


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## bignose1 (Jan 23, 2013)

Ok...whats so sophisticated in calling LP 'No Retreat' editor...(wasnt it Nick Lowles...oh the Searchlight spoiler) and why cheap shot DH's new book as co written by LP...pathetic...why not engage politically you ask? And the putting on the waterworks at the book fair...its cheap pal but it doesnt suprise me. I bet you never complained about the dirty snide disgusting personal attacks on me and Dave and others circa 2003 on the RA forum. Fucking quality debate mate. Speaks volumes.


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## butchersapron (Jan 23, 2013)

Just passing it on:

Book Launch – Physical Resistance: A Hundred Year’s of Anti-Fascism by Dave Hann

Date: Thursday 31st January, 2013 
Time: 7:00 pm to 9:00 pm
Venue: The Hydra Bookshop
Price: Donation

(Atzmon is published by Zero too)


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## Deareg (Jan 23, 2013)

http://www.zero-books.net/books/physical-resistance


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## TopCat (Jan 23, 2013)

What's with the Red and Black cover eh?


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## butchersapron (Jan 23, 2013)

btw, i think LP is doing the talk, can't confirm, maybe framed will be able to later.


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## Joe Reilly (Jan 23, 2013)

past caring said:


> This is about your level when faced with some content that requires actual political engagement.
> 
> Speaks volumes.


 
Not unlike a certain Mr Armstrong he marches to his own drummer.


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## Joe Reilly (Jan 23, 2013)

audiotech said:


> Not an "old pal" as it happens and as I thought no evidence forth-coming for the claim of a 'conspiracy to provoke in the corridor'. As for the rest? Pretty damming. If true of course? Wonder what version I'd get from the other party named in this catalogue of assertions?


 
Not 'old pal' then? So what prompted you to offer a character reference to someone you didn't know all that well more than 30 years ago, in relation to an event you claim not to know nothing about?


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## krink (Jan 23, 2013)

chilango said:


> I have a copy of No Retreat that is going in my cull of books. If anyone wants it PM me or it'll be in the Oxfam box in a week or two.


 
ta very much chilango, arrived on Saturday. It's a good read for most of it and good pics too (though not enough). cheers mate.


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## DaveCinzano (Jan 23, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> btw, i think LP is doing the talk, can't confirm, maybe framed will be able to later.


For a minute there I thought you were suggesting Laurie Penny might be gracing Bristol with her imperial presence


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## butchersapron (Jan 23, 2013)

DaveCinzano said:


> For a minute there I thought you were suggesting Laurie Penny might be gracing Bristol with her imperial presence


That would have made what i already expect to be a _very lively_ meeting that much more lively...


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## DaveCinzano (Jan 23, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> That would have made what i already expect to be a _very lively_ meeting that much more lively...


Will Hydra be firing up a popcorn machine for the evening?


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## audiotech (Jan 23, 2013)

Joe Reilly said:


> Not 'old pal' then? So what prompted you to offer a character reference to someone you didn't know all that well more than 30 years ago, in relation to an event you claim not to know nothing about?


 
I gave my reasons in the initial post I made on this subject.


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## chilango (Jan 23, 2013)

krink said:


> ta very much chilango, arrived on Saturday. It's a good read for most of it and good pics too (though not enough). cheers mate.



Cool. Glad it arrived safely.


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## Joe Reilly (Jan 23, 2013)

audiotech said:


> I gave my reasons in the initial post I made on this subject.


 
You claimed the story of his involvment in the Bradford vote-rigging fiasco and follow up _"don't quite fit with my personal recollections of the individual mentioned. Therefore, I think it highly unlikely this person would involve himself in some of what's been posted here?"_

Having such vivid personal recollections of an individual that you would vouch for his personal integrity more than three decades later is one thing, but in revealing he was little more than an acquaintance inevitably poses a question against your own credibility. You can see that can't you?


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## audiotech (Jan 23, 2013)

Not really. Not an "acquaintance" either as it happens. Keep spinning.


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## TopCat (Jan 23, 2013)

audiotech said:


> Not really. Not an "acquaintance" either as it happens. Keep spinning.


Why so defensive?


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## LiamO (Jan 23, 2013)

TopCat said:


> Why so defensive?


 
I wondered that. Is audiotech actually Jeff Robinson?


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## LiamO (Jan 24, 2013)

I was reading this audiotech/robinson thing again this morning and it occurred to me it is justy like back in the day...

Posh(-ish) leftie launches impassioned attack on Red Action... based entirely on his own prejudice... and ignoring the evidence... gets his arse firmly slapped (metaphorically of course)... squirms, wriggles and backtracks... get slapped again... sulks...

As Joe was saying the other day about AFA meetings - bring your 'A' game or don't bother your arse - there were very few _fool's pardons_ handed out.


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## audiotech (Jan 24, 2013)

"Posh leftie"! Hahaha, fuckin' desperate and I'm no Mr Robinson either. You know fuck all about me same as I know fuck all about you. Have you read the comments by M. O'F in Hann's book btw? "...slagging off every left group and the omnipotent sanctity of of Red Action...". He a "posh leftie" too? To be fair, he does go on to state: " And one thing for sure, when the chips were down you would search a long time before you would find a finer group to have standing alongside you." From what I've read of Red Action and based on my experience here, I can fully accept this latter, important point. The premise, that you disingenuously state on my behalf, as above, is completely and utterly mistaken and not what I'm engaged in here.


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## LiamO (Jan 24, 2013)

Don't get yer knickers in a twist dear.

I am not saying you _are_ posh (hence the -ish). I'm saying that is how your self-righteous judgements would have been _perceived_ then... and now.

I look forward to reading Mickey's comments in due course. But if what you have quoted is true then the behaviour and attitudes Michael is condemning is _exactly_ that which was the leit motif of... no the very essence of.. oh yeah... the young Mick O'Farrell.(ie. memorably turning up to a summer lark in the park cum paper sale with a Samurai sword strapped to his back... for reasons best known to himself. Nearly came in handy too.)

To be frank, I would have _loved_ it if Mickey had stuck it out and been around to give us all the benefits of his burgeoning maturity - god knows we could have done with it.

Unfortunately he lost the _political_ argument and rather than face that unsavoury fact and argue his corner he decided to isolate himself - and pontificate from the sidelines. This was seen by most other people - including his closest, long-time personal friends and political comrades - as more than a tad hypocritical.


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## Joe Reilly (Jan 24, 2013)

audiotech said:


> The premise, that you disingenuously state on my behalf, as above, is completely and utterly mistaken and not what I'm engaged in here.


 
 It's a bit rich to denounce all and sundry for 'spinning' and 'disengenous' invention when it is you that volunteered an opinion and when challenged adopted a position of gnomic infallability: "you know fuck all about me...hahaha!"

So if what has been attributed to you is not "what I'm engaged in here" why not explain what it is your are engaged in?


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## audiotech (Jan 24, 2013)

I can only be engaged in the here and now of politics. Thirty years ago is so thirty years ago.


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## LiamO (Jan 24, 2013)

audiotech said:


> I can only be engaged in the here and now of politics. Thirty years ago is so thirty years ago.


 
so stop crying about it you silly sausage


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## audiotech (Jan 24, 2013)

Didn't you hear, I'm "gnomic" and in stitches.


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## LiamO (Jan 24, 2013)

Nice deflection (and concession).

I think we are done here.


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## framed (Jan 24, 2013)

audiotech said:


> Didn't you hear, I'm "gnomic" and in stitches.


 
No, actually, you've just made an arse of yourself.

You answered none of the points put to you, despite challenging Joe Reilly on the veracity of his comments.

Your attempts to smart-arse it out just make you look even more bitter.

You learn something new every day here, up to that exchange with Reilly I thought you were okay and your posts worth reading.


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## audiotech (Jan 25, 2013)

I challenged some unsubstantiated comment about someone I was active with thirty years ago. The specific point being about a provocation still being unsubstantiated.


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## framed (Jan 25, 2013)

audiotech said:


> I challenged some unsubstantiated comment about someone I was active with thirty years ago. The specific point being about a provocation still being unsubstantiated.


 
Witnesses to the said provocation were flagged up by Joe and Liam. Indeed, Liam specifically named a person who is no friend of Red Action as an independent witness to the shenanigans.

After that you went into smart-arse mode and effectively disengaged from the discussion, I presume because you had no answer to their posts?

I'm an ex-member of AFA and RA who joined a few years after that event. I have no knowledge of it and I was interested in your challenge to the veracity of Joe Reilly's recollection. You 'vouched' for one person against the word of others, I expected you to at least play another hand after that, but your bluff appears to have been called.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 25, 2013)

LiamO said:


> Nice deflection (and concession).
> 
> I think we are done here.


----------



## audiotech (Jan 25, 2013)

framed said:


> Witnesses to the said provocation were flagged up by Joe and Liam. Indeed, Liam specifically named a person who is no friend of Red Action as an independent witness to the shenanigans.
> 
> After that you went into smart-arse mode and effectively disengaged from the discussion, I presume because you had no answer to their posts?
> 
> I'm an ex-member of AFA and RA who joined a few years after that event. I have no knowledge of it and I was interested in your challenge to the veracity of Joe Reilly's recollection. You 'vouched' for one person against the word of others, I expected you to at least play another hand after that, but your bluff appears to have been called.


 
One word against another. The individual cited not here to defend himself. I made myself clear and after Liam posted I accepted there was no more to be said. Then you came along and weighed in and even by your own admission you have no knowledge of said affair, as I've accepted I haven't, so if you hadn't it was over. Like you it seems I felt some loyalty was owed. I'll shut-up now.


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## framed (Jan 25, 2013)

audiotech said:


> One word against another. The individual cited not here to defend himself. I made myself clear and after Liam posted I accepted there was no more to be said. Then you came along and weighed in and even by your own admission you have no knowledge of said affair, as I've accepted I haven't, so if you hadn't it was over. Like you it seems I felt some loyalty was owed. I'll shut-up now.


 
I wasn't offering 'loyalty' to anyone. I was interested in your initial intervention, but disappointed by your replies thereafter.

It was the facetious tone of your subsequent remarks that led me to believe that your 'loyalty' to the individual concerned was either misplaced, or a complete bluff.

End of.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Jan 26, 2013)

audiotech said:


> One word against another. The individual cited not here to defend himself.


 
But, of course it isn't about 'one word against another.' Not only is the conspiracy against AFA covered in greater detail in BTF, pages 132 -36, (which incidentally was edited/proofed by the object of the 'corridor conspiracy')  but Interestingly, the letter (s), from Robinson courting support for the move to expel RA _preceded_ the Bradford conference and only came to light when he made the unilateral move to suspend RA in a meeting in which just 5 branches were present. And two of those present, abstained.

And as you yourself admit, the individual in question has not issued any denial whatsover, either on here, or anywhere else that I'm aware of. 

But you, who have not seen hide nor hair of him for over 30 years have nevertheless decided to issue a denial on his behalf without his knowledge or indeed permission. 

So when you come down to it, it has nothing to do with him at all - it's all about you. And your motivations. 

As one of the few dwindling apologists for Big Nose and his unhinged campaign, I can only surmise the revisionist fever is catching.


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## audiotech (Jan 26, 2013)

I would be doing a disservice to revise militant, working class anti-fascism out of history, bignose included.

I'm done.


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## bignose1 (Jan 27, 2013)

Joe Reilly said:


> But, of course it isn't about 'one word against another.' Not only is the conspiracy against AFA covered in greater detail in BTF, pages 132 -36, (which incidentally was edited/proofed by the object of the 'corridor conspiracy') but Interestingly, the letter (s), from Robinson courting support for the move to expel RA _preceded_ the Bradford conference and only came to light when he made the unilateral move to suspend RA in a meeting in which just 5 branches were present. And two of those present, abstained.
> 
> And as you yourself admit, the individual in question has not issued any denial whatsover, either on here, or anywhere else that I'm aware of.
> 
> ...


 
Dwindling apologists....wtf...you mean on here...is that all there is. Think your way out Gaz. And unhinged...defined by you for those who oppose sick false and personally motivated attacks. You just dont deal with this stuff very well.......an ego that cant cope with ideas not to their orthodoxy.


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## past caring (Jan 27, 2013)

audiotech said:


> I would be doing a disservice to revise militant, working class anti-fascism out of history, bignose included.
> 
> I'm done.


 
You've been done, you mean.


----------



## ayatollah (Jan 27, 2013)

audiotech said:


> Some years ago (before Reilly's era) I was active in Bradford, so the post above don't quite fit with my personal recollections of the individual mentioned. Therefore, I think it highly unlikely this person would involve himself in some of what's been posted here? Admittedly, some of the period spoken about I had by then moved away to find work, nevertheless, and to be specific, I'm prepared to consider my view of said person if there is any evidence presented of him 'conspiring to "provoke" in the "corridor"', as explicitly expressed? I do realise, this being an apparent "conspiracy", that any forth-coming evidence is remote.
> 
> Edit: Meantime, reading Hann's book (arrived earlier than expected), specifically chapter six, titled: "One, two, three and a bit, the National Front is a load of shit".


 
Sorry audiotech, but I myself worked with Jeff Robinson (and other members of his long-term Bradford coterie) for many years in the 1970's, from our joint SWP years, the ANL, to the early AFA years, and the now forgotten, stillborn, "Socialist Federation" project which RA were briefly part of. Jeff was one of the most devious, double dealing people in Far Left Politics it was ever my misfortune to deal with I'm afraid. His word was worth absolutely nothing. He and I were the two AFA National Steering Group people delegated to be the enquiry Commission to get to the bottom of the accusations against Class War (which we now know were just Searchlight smears). Robinson did NO work for this enquiry at all - just came back with more unsubstantiated smears. I eventually ran all the smears to ground as baseless, and simply wrote the entire report, exonerating Class War myself . Jeff Robinson simply , grudgingly, eventually, signing it, after some very heated exchanges at my house where we had met up to consider our combined evidence collected (in Jeff's case -- NONE). Fortunately I had , on receiving no evidence from Jeff over weeks, already written a draft of the report - which simply became the actual final report.

Jeff was indeed also the main operator/plotter behind the subsequent attempt to expel Red Action ( a move which I at first managed to squash at a National Steering Group meeting as Chair, but as I was just about to bail out of activist politics and move to Scotland, Jeff and his plotters obviously came back again with the plan once I was out of the way). Fortunately Liz Fekete, who was/is a principled person, eventually came up trumps in denouncing Jeff and co's. plot, as detailed in BtF. It was indeed Jeff and his Bradford cronies who deliberately set an entirely disruptive agenda for the Bradford AFA 1987 Conference ( totally abusing their "host AFA branch" Conference Agenda Committee role the night BEFORE the Conference) In alliance with people who have since proved to be utter Labourite reformists within the Bradford Asian Youth Movement. The entire conference was dominated with fruitless debates about a NAME CHANGE, FFS. The only actual discussion we had about anti fascist work the entire day was an informal session I ran during the lunch break ! An utterly disastrous, shambolic conference ! Jeff's agenda, with Searchlight, was entirely to hijack the now established AFA membership structure nationally, for a renamed AFA to become a softer, touchy-feely anti racist (NOT street action anti fascist) campaigning body - and pull in lots of state grants on that basis presumeably -- a sort of ANL Mk II, without the SWP dominance, and without Squadism in its midst. Jeff did everything re the conference corridor plotting, setting up RA for conflict with the Asian Youth guys, that has been described by Gary et al.

Note to anyone EVER tempted to work politically with Jeff Robinson. DONT !


----------



## LiamO (Jan 27, 2013)

That's lovely then. We can all agree Jeffrey was a slippery fucker. Anyone for petit-four?


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 27, 2013)

not our jeff is it?


----------



## LiamO (Jan 27, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> not our jeff is it?


 
I would laugh my balls off if it was.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jan 27, 2013)

Not me. I am a lazy fucker who loves unsubtantiated smears though.


----------



## ayatollah (Jan 27, 2013)

Anyway. Back to the new , late, "Dave Hann's" (as edited by his partner Louis) book. "Physical Resistance". I've now read the entire book on my new Kindle (whilst eating a chip buttie though , so I'm not completely middle class........ OK I am really). Obviously some on here won't be/obviously aren't entirely happy (!) with some of the (very few) comments re RA when he left in 1988, by great old comrade Mick O'Farrell (has he become "Mickey" more recently ?), or by an anarchist contributor re the prolonged end-times argy bargy in AFA in the 90's. Pity though if this endless historical dispute blots out the overall impression of this book that I took away from a reading - ie, that it is a superb contribution to the collected oral history of the anti fascist struggle in the UK (and British participants in the Spanish Civil war). I think anyone, not embroiled in 30 year old disputes, will be inspired by the way that , repeatedly, ordinary men and women, from a surprisingly wide spread of(Left) political traditions, got themselves organised to face off each and every upsurge in the physical menace of fascism, right back to the 1920's. Some will say it's a bit light on political analysis. I think this is true, but then as as inspirational, "ordinary people can and did make a stand" book to be read by an audience not always interested in the fine political detail, but just wanting to get into action against present day manifestations of street fascism, I think the oral history approach works very well.

One thing that really shone out for me, as someone simply burnt out after 16 years of frenetic politics/anti fascist activism by 1987, is that nearly everyone contributing in the book went through the same process. Then a new generation of activists had to come along - often starting from scratch , re-learning lessons we had learnt so painfully. Physical force anti fascist activism is a young person's game in the main. (Though I was in many a quite hairy anti fascist argy bargy alongside a few absolutely ancient but superb AJEX , association of Jewish Ex Servicemen guys, political Zionists all, in Manchester in the early 1970's). The point left unsaid, but nevertheless implicitly posed by the "we all have our moment on the street" thread of the book, is what happens to us old activists afterwards ? The book well describes how many, many of the early Jewish fighters were attracted off to the sterile pastures of political Zionism, and of course the communists were repeatedly lost in the endless policy contortions of the CP dictated by Moscow. Our generation of activist anti fascists are certainly politically "all over the show" too. One of the things that I felt very strongly at the book's end was the need for those of us no longer "up for it" streetwise to at least support and encourage those young people currently facing up to the confusing mix of rabid multi-brand street rabble fascism as exemplified by the EDL ... rather than belittling both their activity as "liberal placard-waving", or the very real menace that even currently limited numbers of drunken neo-fascist boneheads imply for ethnic minority communities. Because one thing is clear, regardless as to whether , or more likely when, a BNP type far Right party starts to make real electoral headway again, the coming era of growing mass unemplyment and poverty WILL mean that the fascist street gangs are also definitely on their way back as a permanent part of the Radical Right offensive.


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## gawkrodger (Jan 27, 2013)

just bought it (making it the 6th book I've bought in 2 days, whilst I still have a pile of about 30 unread books. Hmmm) and looking forward to it after the reviews here


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## Deareg (Jan 27, 2013)

gawkrodger said:


> just bought it (making it the 6th book I've bought in 2 days, whilst I still have a pile of about 30 unread books. Hmmm) and looking forward to it after the reviews here


It is a really good book, you will most likely enjoy it and hopefully it will inspire and help to guide today's and future generations of anti fascists.


----------



## LiamO (Jan 27, 2013)

ayatollah said:


> by great old comrade Mick O'Farrell (has he become "Mickey" more recently ?),


 
TBH the only person I knew who called Mickey, Mick - was Mickey.


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## manny-p (Jan 27, 2013)

Deareg said:


> It is a really good book, you will most likely enjoy it and hopefully it will inspire and help to guide today's and future generations of anti fascists.


Can someone give me the link to buy it off amazon? I deserve a treat once in awhile


----------



## Deareg (Jan 27, 2013)

manny-p said:


> Can someone give me the link to buy it off amazon? I deserve a treat once in awhile


Not sure about amazon but here is the publisher.

http://www.zero-books.net/books/physical-resistance


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## Red Storm (Jan 28, 2013)

manny-p said:


> Can someone give me the link to buy it off amazon? I deserve a treat once in awhile



Amazon.co.uk and then search physical resistance.


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## audiotech (Jan 28, 2013)

ayatollah said:


> Note to anyone EVER tempted to work politically with Jeff Robinson. DONT !


 
I did have the sense to refuse him lend of my motorcycle one time to "scout" around when the NF were meeting in a Bradford school. A huge picket had been organised as the front were marched up the road with a police escort and were met by a barrage of missiles, including bombs of curry powder, lobbed by Asian youth. They stung the eyes!

Edit: Were you ever involved with RAR at the Alhambra, which began about the time of the bakers strike I recall? Later, there was the 'Militant Entertainment' tour with Stiff Little Fingers head-lining.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Jan 29, 2013)

ayatollah said:


> One thing that really shone out for me, as someone simply burnt out after 16 years of frenetic politics/anti fascist activism by 1987, is that nearly everyone contributing in the book went through the same process. Then a new generation of activists had to come along - often starting from scratch , re-learning lessons we had learnt so painfully. Physical force anti fascist activism is a young person's game in the main. (Though I was in many a quite hairy anti fascist argy bargy alongside a few absolutely ancient but superb AJEX , association of Jewish Ex Servicemen guys, political Zionists all, in Manchester in the early 1970's). The point left unsaid, but nevertheless implicitly posed by the "we all have our moment on the street" thread of the book, is what happens to us old activists afterwards ? The book well describes how many, many of the early Jewish fighters were attracted off to the sterile pastures of political Zionism, and of course the communists were repeatedly lost in the endless policy contortions of the CP dictated by Moscow. Our generation of activist anti fascists are certainly politically "all over the show" too.


 
Ironically, this in part at least, is what the IWCA project anticipated, and sought to prevent. And if indeed anti-fascism is 'all over the show' then the focused and resolute campaign beginning in 1995, (and still ongoing by the sounds of things) to misrepresent the IWCA and what it was all about, can hardly be regarded as insignificant can it?


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## malatesta32 (Jan 30, 2013)

some absolute bollocks about RA/AFA from eddie stampton on 
http://www.aryanunity dot com/redwatchonline/latest.html
not exactly a reliable source is he?


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## Red Storm (Jan 30, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> some absolute bollocks about RA/AFA from eddie stampton on
> http://www.aryanunity dot com/redwatchonline/latest.html
> not exactly a reliable source is he?


 
Can't see anything on RA/AFA?


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## TopCat (Jan 30, 2013)

Any torrent links to the book? I ain't paying for it.


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## Red Storm (Jan 30, 2013)

TopCat said:


> Any torrent links to the book? I ain't paying for it.


 
'Kin 'ell


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## malatesta32 (Jan 30, 2013)

scroll down to mensi bit. mark pringle is eddie stampton - NF, BNP, BPP, EDL, NWI reject. also what happened to the British Free Corps? this is from 2008. i believe the term is 'walting.'


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## Deareg (Jan 30, 2013)

TopCat said:


> Any torrent links to the book? I ain't paying for it.


Some of the money is being donated for anti fascist prisoners, at least honour that amount.


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## Fedayn (Jan 30, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> scroll down to mensi bit. mark pringle is eddie stampton - NF, BNP, BPP, EDL, NWI reject. also what happened to the British Free Corps? this is from 2008. i believe the term is 'walting.'


 
Eddie with the glasses....


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## TopCat (Jan 30, 2013)

Deareg said:


> Some of the money is being donated for anti fascist prisoners, at least honour that amount.


How much and to whom?


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## Deareg (Jan 30, 2013)

TopCat said:


> How much and to whom?


Not sure of the amount but it went to Black Cross at the Brighton launch.


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## imposs1904 (Jan 30, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> scroll down to mensi bit. mark pringle is eddie stampton - NF, BNP, BPP, EDL, NWI reject. also what happened to the British Free Corps? this is from 2008. i believe the term is 'walting.'


 
what's a ginger wig wearing matt lucas doing in that pic?


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## malatesta32 (Jan 30, 2013)

imposs1904 said:


> what's a ginger wig wearing matt lucas doing in that pic?


he must be the ubermensch then!


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## bignose1 (Jan 30, 2013)

Fedayn said:


> Eddie with the glasses....


 He needs to be stampt-on


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## bignose1 (Jan 30, 2013)

TopCat said:


> How much and to whom?


 
At least a fiver..that ok ffs


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## TopCat (Jan 31, 2013)

And to whom?


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## Louis MacNeice (Jan 31, 2013)

Deareg said:


> Not sure of the amount but it went to Black Cross at the Brighton launch.


 
It was £5 something on a discounted £15 price. The launch was good wasn't it.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


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## bignose1 (Jan 31, 2013)

TopCat said:


> And to whom?


To anti-fascist prisoners.....you are ok with that yeah


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## ayatollah (Jan 31, 2013)

LiamO said:


> TBH the only person I knew who called Mickey, Mick - was Mickey.


And me apparently. I'm surprised that in the specific fond  namecheck he gives me, Tilzey, and Ian Mac in his piece in the book he doesn't also say "but that Manchester fucker  would always persist in calling me Mick".  I also observe that the initials-only identifiers  used in NR and BtF are obviously  old hat in anti fascist books nowadays.  Great book though -- lots of stuff I didn't know from the 20's and 30's.....eg, I didn't know that Mosley's  special elite bodyguard force were called "I-Squad" !


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## Deareg (Jan 31, 2013)

Louis MacNeice said:


> It was £5 something on a discounted £15 price. The launch was good wasn't it.
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice


It went even better than Louise or anyone else expected.


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## Deareg (Jan 31, 2013)

TopCat said:


> And to whom?


Black Cross.


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## malatesta32 (Jan 31, 2013)

the I Squad were barracked in black house and were specifically trained to attack hecklers, CP members etc. they were dissolved after the 'financial issues' arose and mosley slimmed down the org to cope with dwindling income. mussolini funded him for a bit but they lost a lot of support post olympia fiasco.


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## Pickman's model (Jan 31, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> the I Squad were barracked in black house and were specifically trained to attack hecklers, CP members etc. they were dissolved after the 'financial issues' arose and mosley slimmed down the org to cope with dwindling income. mussolini funded him for a bit but they lost a lot of support post olympia fiasco.


did they? did they? i wouldn't be so sure on that. see, for example, http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1468-2281.2005.00339.x/abstract


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## malatesta32 (Jan 31, 2013)

they had to strip it down economically due to people using BUF clubs as drinking clubs and in one case a brothel. they lost support over the olympia fiasco from the media (rather than voters) as they distanced themselves from the violent rep. they still didnt do much electorally and the battle would appear to have been at street level rather than at the ballot box. physical opposition, working class/local organisation and media coverage have always contributed to the decline of fascist groups in the UK.


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## malatesta32 (Jan 31, 2013)

our report on Phsyical Resistance book launch! 
http://malatesta32.wordpress.com/2013/01/31/physical-resistance-book-launch-a-big-success/


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## Deareg (Jan 31, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> our report on Phsyical Resistance book launch!
> http://malatesta32.wordpress.com/2013/01/31/physical-resistance-book-launch-a-big-success/


You summed the evening up really well.


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## malatesta32 (Jan 31, 2013)

cheers mate, sorry i had to nick off early and didnt get chance to chat properly. i think it was a huge success.


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## bignose1 (Jan 31, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> cheers mate, sorry i had to nick off early and didnt get chance to chat properly. i think it was a huge success.


Yeah nice one fellah pity you couldnt stick around a bit longer......and fair play to the Cowley Club for the party venue afterwards.


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## bignose1 (Jan 31, 2013)

TopCat said:


> How much and to whom?


Come on back you miserable twat....tell us why you had to talk shite about that.


----------



## Deareg (Jan 31, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> Come on back you miserable twat....tell us why you had to talk shite about that.


Fucks sake mate, just leave it now.


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## ayatollah (Jan 31, 2013)

Joe Reilly said:


> Ironically, this in part at least, is what the IWCA project anticipated, and sought to prevent. And if indeed anti-fascism is 'all over the show' then the focused and resolute campaign beginning in 1995, (and still ongoing by the sounds of things) to misrepresent the IWCA and what it was all about, can hardly be regarded as insignificant can it?


 
A bit of a convenient  misquote  "Joe", I actually said:

" Our generation of activist anti fascists are certainly politically "all over the show" too."

Yep, that's US I was talking about, us 70's/80's  physical force activists . Anti fascism itself as a multi-facetted activity has always been "all over the show" politically -  with the usual mix of reformist posturing and weak banner-waving - mixed in with  people getting stuck in physically when "street fascism" makes its periodic re-appearances - (a la the shambolic last few years of the "EDL phenomenum" -- from a quite clever opening gambit of "anti Islamic extremism - we're not racists" - quickly on to dwindling numbers of drunken boneheads stirring the shit in ethnic minority communities). The wider campaigning against racism and fascism is obviously much broader, encompassing basic trades union work, to political work building resistance against the cuts on a wide local and national front by many Left organisations. I think the key difference between old lags like myself and yourself and your co-thinkers is that whereas I can see  the time - specific logic of a lot of the "time for local activism in the white working class" analysis in "Filling the Vacuum" in 1995 (though not your  abandonmemnt of socialism itself  as an outdated   "middle class" foible), history moves on, but you haven't. So you have both consistently  "bigged up " the UK potential of the BNP to become a mass party , right up to the point where it so predictably collapsed - and rubbished every reappearance of  violent street fascism in the years since , as being laughably irrelevant ("Not the REAL gigantic mean Nazis we fought in our day, oh no !") and rubbished every anti fascist initiative to confront this resurgeance. Frankly the EDL et al  may well be a laughable shower of drunks - but  a minority ethnic community facing an incursion by a big gang of street thugs will be very happy to have support from the white Left on the day, even if mainly of the placard -waving UAF, HnH, variety of respectable campaigners. I'm not suggesting you and  the old RA lads have to "get your boots on" again to join them -- I'm a bit physically buggered myself nowadays to do that. I'm just suggesting that constantly counterposing "getting out on the landings" doing basic local campaigning work on working class estates , RATHER than supporting or doing  specific anti fascist work, particularly when racists invade local communities, shouldn't be an either/or situation.

What the contributions in "Physical Resistance" which cover the break up of AFA argue is that Red Action seemed to view the single issue anti fascist "UNITED FRONT" of AFA as an organisation ("your property" ?)which could simply be converted into a multi-issue campaigning "POLITICAL PARTY", ie the IWCA project. This was, and is, and always will be, complete political nonsense. No participant in a genuine  limited issue, multi-political organisation membership, united front should ever try to hijack it to become part of their particular political project. It is fundamental bad faith to do so. Tha's why the attempt by RA/IWCA to transform the AFA into a political party was so destructive and doomed to failure - and why, even now, the mainly anarchist "other partners" in the 1990's AFA united front, still bear a grudge about what happened. This is particularly so, given that long after RA/IWCA had "declared final victory" over street fascism, those same young anarchists were continually embroiled in combatting the remains of violent street fascism all over the UK. And continue to do so, as street fascism has erupted again recently, alongside all the usual reformist/Far Left campaigns to this day.

You think that a lot of people on the Left have  "got it in for you" Joe. Well, most on the Left really don't know the remnants of the IWCA still exist. A few people  around in the 1990's still bear a grudge at the destructuion of the AFA Network that RA/IWCA's attempt to convert it to a (non-socialist) local campaigning political party caused. And TODAY, a few people, like myself just don't agree with almost any aspect of the strange localist (working class power in working class areas -- whatever that can actually mean) politics and methodology of the IWCA, and see it as fundamentally reactionery.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 31, 2013)

I don't think the IWCA or similar projects were designed to appeal to the left, never mind a few on the left. It's audience was the local working class who , unlike a lot of the left, never mind a few on the left, didn't find it fundamentally reactionary.


----------



## audiotech (Jan 31, 2013)

What about the here and now and say building a campaign on the 'bedroom tax' affecting working class council tenants?


----------



## Joe Reilly (Jan 31, 2013)

The39thStep said:


> I don't think the IWCA or similar projects were designed to appeal to the left, never mind a few on the left. It's audience was the local working class who , unlike a lot of the left, never mind a few on the left, didn't find it fundamentally reactionary.


 
Ah, but you miss the point. The very fact that the IWCA did what the unthinking Left wouldn't and couldn't is in itself proof that not only is the IWCA reactionary but the working class communties where the strategy was applied are almost certainly reactionary as well. Otherwise how could it be that where the SA get (the usual)30 votes the IWCA get a councillor?


----------



## LiamO (Jan 31, 2013)

much better to abandon the working class - especially the white working class - to the fash anyway


----------



## love detective (Jan 31, 2013)

it's a price worth paying to avoid alienating the left


----------



## TopCat (Feb 1, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> Come on back you miserable twat....tell us why you had to talk shite about that.


I wanted to be absolutely sure that in this case, donations to any recommended group did not lead to the money going to your slimey cunt mates at Searchlight.  Get it?


----------



## manny-p (Feb 1, 2013)

TopCat said:


> I wanted to be absolutely sure that in this case, donations to any recommended group did not lead to the money going to your slimey cunt mates at Searchlight.  Get it?


Dnt think bignose is in searchlight anymore.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 1, 2013)

manny-p said:


> Dnt think bignose is in searchlight anymore.


You _think?_


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## Red Storm (Feb 1, 2013)

Jesus wept


----------



## bignose1 (Feb 1, 2013)

TopCat said:


> I wanted to be absolutely sure that in this case, donations to any recommended group did not lead to the money going to your slimey cunt mates at Searchlight.  Get it?


What bit dont you get..I left the Searchlight circle in 94' (approximately a year after O'Shea stopped meeting with them). Why would you think this book would have anything to do with Searchlight. Its this kind of stuff that makes you look simple minded...and obsessive.


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## bignose1 (Feb 1, 2013)

Where did the BTF dough go?


----------



## love detective (Feb 1, 2013)

David Hoffman


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## bignose1 (Feb 1, 2013)

love detective said:


> David Hoffman


Where would it have gone?


----------



## love detective (Feb 1, 2013)

As with most published books, the lion's share goes to the publisher themselves


----------



## love detective (Feb 1, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> Why would you think this book would have anything to do with Searchlight. Its this kind of stuff that makes you look simple minded...and obsessive.


 
So there's absolutely no way that the substantial fees Louise incurred in relation to Carter Ruck's failed attempts to stop the publication BTF would have been funded by Searchlight? She paid them out her own pocket yes?


----------



## Deareg (Feb 1, 2013)

manny-p said:


> Dnt think bignose is in searchlight anymore.


And Dave never was.


----------



## Deareg (Feb 1, 2013)

love detective said:


> So there's absolutely no way that the substantial fees Louise incurred in relation to Carter Ruck's failed attempts to stop the publication BTF would have been funded by Searchlight? She paid them out her own pocket yes?


What fees were they?


----------



## love detective (Feb 1, 2013)

On behalf of Louise, Carter Ruck spent around 6 months attempting to disrupt/prevent/delay the publication of BTF - someone had to pay for that (given that the case as presented was so full of holes that there's no way it would have been taken on by CR as a 'no win, no fee' arrangement)


----------



## Deareg (Feb 1, 2013)

love detective said:


> On behalf of Louise, Carter Ruck spent around 6 months attempting to disrupt/prevent/delay the publication of BTF - someone had to pay for that (given that the case as presented was so full of holes that there's no way it would have been taken on by CR as a 'no win, no fee' arrangement)


No idea about any of that, just wondering how much it would have cost? You seemed to know so I was asking, Do you know?


----------



## bignose1 (Feb 1, 2013)

love detective said:


> As with most published books, the lion's share goes to the publisher themselves


I know that!


love detective said:


> So there's absolutely no way that the substantial fees Louise incurred in relation to Carter Ruck's failed attempts to stop the publication BTF would have been funded by Searchlight? She paid them out her own pocket yes?


Get in the real world you clown. She didnt give a toss Id imagine about BtF coming out...it was the vicious lies you told about DH that concerned her. Searchlight had no role in either No Retreat or PR you numbskulls. Its laughable. Is this a wind up........


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 1, 2013)

I just heard that there was some kind of firebomb attack at the Freedom Books shop last night early this morning, has anyone heard any more about this?

[Corrected]

https://twitter.com/piombo/status/297331277068124160
https://twitter.com/piombo/status/297331923519410176


----------



## bignose1 (Feb 1, 2013)

Deareg said:


> No idea about any of that, just wondering how much it would have cost? You seemed to know so I was asking, Do you know?


Probably not as much as youd like in order to feed your conspiracy nonsense.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Feb 1, 2013)

DaveCinzano said:


> I just heard that there was some kind of firebomb attack at the Freedom Books shop last night early this morning, has anyone heard any more about this?
> 
> [Corrected]
> 
> ...


 
*Freedom Press* ‏@*Freedom_Paper*
BREAKING: Freedom was firebombed last night. No-one hurt, upstairs is okay but shop and electrics have been seriously damaged.

*Freedom Press* ‏@*Freedom_Paper*
Not much to be done today, but plan for cleanup and appeal for cash (no insurance coverage sadly) will be getting sorted out asap.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 1, 2013)

> *Freedom Press* ‏@*Freedom_Paper*
> BREAKING: Freedom was firebombed last night. No-one hurt, upstairs is okay but shop and electrics have been seriously damaged... Not much to be done today, but plan for cleanup and appeal for cash (no insurance coverage sadly) will be getting sorted out asap.


 
https://twitter.com/Freedom_Paper/status/297332447039856640
https://twitter.com/Freedom_Paper/status/297332776976396288


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 1, 2013)

Fast fingers, Fozzie, fast fingers...


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Feb 1, 2013)

DaveCinzano said:


> Fast fingers, Fozzie, fast fingers...


 
Heh - looks like Butchers has added this to the Freedom Press thread - probably best to discuss it there...


----------



## love detective (Feb 1, 2013)

Deareg said:


> No idea about any of that, just wondering how much it would have cost? You seemed to know so I was asking, Do you know?


 
Well I saw every letter that they sent over that period, each of which ran to a fair few pages, which suggests a fair amount of work done on behalf of the client (by a lawyer who a few months later went on to represent a number of high profile clients against NOTW in the phone hacking scandal) , on top of these there would have been numerous client meetings talking about the case, responding to the defence against it etc.. CR aren't cheap, so I would imagine it would have been a good few thousand over the 6 months or so

edit: posted that before I saw the posts about FP


----------



## malatesta32 (Feb 1, 2013)

love detective said:


> As with most published books, the lion's share goes to the publisher themselves


 
true. most writers get 10-15% back from the publishers after they have covered costs and any advance they may have given you (unless they pay you in copies). few writers make much money from books.


----------



## Deareg (Feb 1, 2013)

love detective said:


> Well I saw every letter that they sent over that period, each of which ran to a fair few pages, which suggests a fair amount of work done on behalf of the client (by a lawyer who later went on to represent a number of high profile clients against NOTW in the phone hacking scandal) , on top of these there would have been numerous client meetings talking about the case, responding to the defence against it etc.. CR aren't cheap, so I would imagine it would have been a good few thousand over the 6 months or so
> 
> edit: posted that before I saw the posts about FP


So you don't know how much money or indeed if any money was paid. Why didn't you just say that when I first asked.


----------



## love detective (Feb 1, 2013)

Deareg said:


> So you don't know how much money or indeed if any money was paid. Why didn't you just say that when I first asked.



Are you implying CR provide free legal assistance? They are some kind of Charity yes? Their staff don't get paid and just provide their time for free?

How could I possibly know exactly how much it was, but at the same time how can you possibly suggest there was no fees charged? I don't know how much Max Hastings, or PWC or KPMG or PR firms charge their clients but we know it's not free/cheap - ditto CR


----------



## TopCat (Feb 1, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> I know that!
> 
> Get in the real world you clown. She didnt give a toss Id imagine about BtF coming out...it was the vicious lies you told about DH that concerned her. Searchlight had no role in either No Retreat or PR you numbskulls. Its laughable. Is this a wind up........


She paid for it herself? You expect to be believed on this? The reality is that only Louise and Carter Fuck know how this cost and how much was paid and by whom.

Occam's Razor points to Gerry Gable and his cohorts, they were desperate to stop publication.


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## framed (Feb 1, 2013)

I don't know what representation by Carter-Ruck costs, but as far as I can tell they no longer take 'no win no fee' cases. I've no idea what the going rate is for legal consultations and a few lawyers letters, but CF's fees are not inexpensive.

*Carter-Ruck legal fees going cheap at £400 an hour*

Here's a list of links to Carter-Ruck cases covered by the Guardian.


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## bignose1 (Feb 1, 2013)

TopCat said:


> She paid for it herself? You expect to be believed on this? The reality is that only Louise and Carter Fuck know how this cost and how much was paid and by whom.
> 
> Occam's Razor points to Gerry Gable and his cohorts, they were desperate to stop publication.


 
What did it cost you/IWCA to sue the Labour Party...and if you told me to fuck off I would understand hence mind your own business its fuck all to do with anyone least of all you.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 1, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> What did it cost you/IWCA to sue the Labour Party...and if you told me to fuck off I would understand hence mind your own business its fuck all to do with anyone least of all you.


Which would suggest a connection that you deny exists.


----------



## bignose1 (Feb 1, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Which would suggest a connection that you deny exists.


?????????? Dont join the rest of the morons ...it really isnt worth it.


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## Red Storm (Feb 1, 2013)

DIdn't the IWCA win their case against the Labour Party though?


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## Joe Reilly (Feb 1, 2013)

Red Storm said:


> DIdn't the IWCA win their case against the Labour Party though?


 
Yeah, hands down. It eventually cost LP £30,000. Half of which went directly to IWCA.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Feb 1, 2013)

Fozzie Bear said:


> *Freedom Press* ‏@*Freedom_Paper*
> BREAKING: Freedom was firebombed last night. No-one hurt, upstairs is okay but shop and electrics have been seriously damaged.
> 
> *Freedom Press* ‏@*Freedom_Paper*
> Not much to be done today, but plan for cleanup and appeal for cash (no insurance coverage sadly) will be getting sorted out asap.


 
At the height of the manufactured hysteria surrounding the planned publication of BTF we used to [half] joke with FP staff about the possibility of something like this happening. Of course FP was attacked by C18 before but it would be extraordinary if the far-right were responsible this time. Very odd.


----------



## Red Storm (Feb 1, 2013)

Joe Reilly said:


> At the height of the manufactured hysteria surrounding the planned publication of BTF we used to [half] joke with FP staff about the possibility of something like this happening. Of course FP was attacked by C18 before but it would be *extraordinary* if the far-right were responsible this time. Very odd.


 
You think it's unlikely that it was the far-right?


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## bignose1 (Feb 1, 2013)

Red Storm said:


> DIdn't the IWCA win their case against the Labour Party though?


Yeah but you have to stump up initially. Sordid affair.


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## bignose1 (Feb 1, 2013)

Red Storm said:


> You think it's unlikely that it was the far-right?


He's being a knobhead mate....


----------



## bignose1 (Feb 1, 2013)

Joe Reilly said:


> At the height of the manufactured hysteria surrounding the planned publication of BTF we used to [half] joke with FP staff about the possibility of something like this happening. Of course FP was attacked by C18 before but it would be extraordinary if the far-right were responsible this time. Very odd.


 
The hysteria surrounding the publication of No Retreat was pretty pleasant too Gaz.


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## Red Storm (Feb 1, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> He's being a knobhead mate....


 
I don't want to get into the name calling.

I just thought that the far-right was the obvious culprit. I don't think this is the beginning of anything though.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 1, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> What did it cost you/IWCA to sue the Labour Party...and if you told me to fuck off I would understand hence mind your own business its fuck all to do with anyone least of all you.


I am non aligned and not connected with suing anyone. Stop trying to muddy the waters, it's laughable.


----------



## bignose1 (Feb 1, 2013)

Red Storm said:


> I don't want to get into the name calling.
> 
> I just thought that the far-right was the obvious culprit. I don't think this is the beginning of anything though.


 
Nor do I really its just a way of life with these lot. 

I dont have a beef with Freedom Press/Books. I support and appreciate what they do and shouldnt even have to say that. Mischief making is de rigeur for Gary and co hence a totally stupid and irresponsible remark intended to cause shit.


----------



## bignose1 (Feb 1, 2013)

TopCat said:


> I am non aligned and not connected with suing anyone. Stop trying to muddy the waters, it's laughable.


 
Well you could have fooled me.


----------



## Deareg (Feb 1, 2013)

love detective said:


> Are you implying CR provide free legal assistance? They are some kind of Charity yes? Their staff don't get paid and just provide their time for free?
> 
> How could I possibly know exactly how much it was, but at the same time how can you possibly suggest there was no fees charged? I don't know how much Max Hastings, or PWC or KPMG or PR firms charge their clients but we know it's not free/cheap - ditto CR


No idea, but I do find the whole thing strange from your end, I know next to nothing about the law or suing people but I was under the impression that you could not sue on behalf of a dead person? Particularly one who not only already had a criminal record for football hooliganism, but had co-authored a book describing his involvement,  participating and organising some extremely violent affairs, so I find it even stranger that any solicitors would threaten to sue on his behalf in such circumstances?


----------



## Deareg (Feb 1, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Which would suggest a connection that you deny exists.


There never was any connection between Dave and Searchlight, nor after talking with Louise do I believe for one second that she would ever have anything to do with those grassing bastards either.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 1, 2013)

Deareg said:


> There never was any connection between Dave and Searchlight, nor after talking with Louise do I believe for one second that she would ever have anything to do with those grassing bastards either.


I wrote the post that you are responding to badly, really badly and messed it up. Looking at what i was responding to:



> What did it cost you/IWCA to sue the Labour Party...and if you told me to fuck off I would understand hence mind your own business its fuck all to do with anyone least of all you.


 
I wasn't talking about D or L, or you.


----------



## Deareg (Feb 1, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> I wrote the post that you are responding to badly, really badly and messed it up. Looking at what i was responding to:
> 
> 
> 
> I wasn't talking about D or L, or you.


No problem, hope you didn't think I was being arsy.


----------



## love detective (Feb 1, 2013)

Deareg said:


> No idea, but I do find the whole thing strange from your end, I know next to nothing about the law or suing people but I was under the impression that you could not sue on behalf of a dead person? Particularly one who not only already had a criminal record for football hooliganism, but had co-authored a book describing his involvement, participating and organising some extremely violent affairs, so I find it even stranger that any solicitors would threaten to sue on his behalf in such circumstances?


 
What i find strange is that despite you having no involvement in any of this you are now implicitly suggesting that what happened didn't happen

Why don't you ask Louise why she instructed CR to do the things that they did? (the action was taken by Louise on behalf of Mr Hann's estate by the way and nominally in anticipation of the then forthcoming publication of Physical Resistance)

Neither Louise, Bignose or anyone else even remotely involved from the 'other side' don't deny what CR attempted to do (there will be differing accounts of what the real underlying motivations of the those involved in the CR action and who its real backers were of course) so while you are of course entitled to your own opinion/view on things, you're pretty much on your own in suggesting that there was no sustained campaign by CR against the publication of the book


----------



## Deareg (Feb 1, 2013)

Dave was a good mate of mine and Louise has become a good friend as well, no real mystery there, I wont ask her because she is still grieving for her dead partner and the father of her children and I wont add to her suffering, you have chosen to raise it on a public forum and therefore I feel entitled to ask you to explain something that you claim to have happened and which I feel doesn't add up for the reasons that I put out in the post that you quoted.


----------



## bignose1 (Feb 1, 2013)

love detective said:


> What i find strange is that despite you having no involvement in any of this you are now implicitly suggesting that what happened didn't happen
> 
> Why don't you ask Louise why she instructed CR to do the things that they did? (the action was taken by Louise on behalf of Mr Hann's estate by the way and nominally in anticipation of the then forthcoming publication of Physical Resistance)
> 
> Neither Louise, Bignose or anyone else even remotely involved from the 'other side' don't deny what CR attempted to do (there will be differing accounts of what the real underlying motivations of the those involved in the CR action and who its real backers were of course) so while you are of course entitled to your own opinion/view on things, you're pretty much on your own in suggesting that there was no sustained campaign by CR against the publication of the book


 
The BtF book was bound to repeat false allegations against Dave and Louise wanted to protect her children and Daves reputation as an honest and valued anti fascist. Its simple really. Tell fibs and you may have to face some sort of action...as Oxford LP should know only too well. CR for my tuppence worth couldnt give a fuck about the book not coming out it just wanted to stop untrue and malicious allegations.

All the bullshit about it being a Searchlight inspired spoiler is laughable. You really must be off your heads. I think you come out with this shit because you probably believe in Adolfs adage of repeatedly telling a lie....you know the rest.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Feb 2, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> The BtF book was bound to repeat false allegations against Dave and Louise wanted to protect her children and Daves reputation as an honest and valued anti fascist. Its simple really. Tell fibs and you may have to face some sort of action...as Oxford LP should know only too well. CR for my tuppence worth couldnt give a fuck about the book not coming out it just wanted to stop untrue and malicious allegations.


 
Let's call a spade a spade. There are enough people on here that know that Dave did what he did and in private you have acknowledged to them that he did it. They in turn have also confirmed to others that he did it. In other words all this 'false and maliscious allegations' malarkey is totally played out. So do yourself a favour and just give all this holier than thou shit a fucking rest.


----------



## bignose1 (Feb 2, 2013)

Joe Reilly said:


> Let's call a spade a spade. There are enough people on here that know that Dave did what he did and in private you have acknowledged to them that he did it. They in turn have also confirmed to others that he did it. In other words all this 'false and maliscious allegations' malarkey is totally played out. So do yourself a favour and just give all this holier than thou shit a fucking rest.


 
More lies....you just cant stop. Do yourself a favour and tell me if you are accused of doing something very serious by a friend, colleague or comrade does that makes you guilty. Think about it.... youve got no room to talk matey. Not even a little wriggle.


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## love detective (Feb 2, 2013)

Deareg said:


> Dave was a good mate of mine and Louise has become a good friend as well, no real mystery there, I wont ask her because she is still grieving for her dead partner and the father of her children and I wont add to her suffering, you have chosen to raise it on a public forum and therefore I feel entitled to ask you to explain something that you claim to have happened and which I feel doesn't add up for the reasons that I put out in the post that you quoted.


 
Well if you're not willing to believe us and are not prepared to ask Louise, why don't you ask Bignose about it, who actually confirms it in his post above.

Even better look at posts 3191 through 3270 of this thread, where he justifies the reasons for supplying the names of the authors to Carter Ruck (while simultaneously admitting and denying that he did so)


----------



## love detective (Feb 2, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> The BtF book was bound to repeat false allegations against Dave and Louise wanted to protect her children and Daves reputation as an honest and valued anti fascist. Its simple really. Tell fibs and you may have to face some sort of action...as Oxford LP should know only too well. CR for my tuppence worth couldnt give a fuck about the book not coming out it just wanted to stop untrue and malicious allegations.
> 
> All the bullshit about it being a Searchlight inspired spoiler is laughable.


 
Events suggest otherwise. While CR carried out a sustained 6 month campaign of legal intimidation against the publishers while the book was in the publication process (which ironically in turn prompted a reexamination and an actual expansion of the passages describing the episode in the book), when the book was actually published, complete with these alleged 'false allegations' and 'lies', CR suddenly backed down, melted away, and all the bluster & bravado of the previous 6 months about the severe consequences of going ahead with publication disappeared. That says a number of things to me:-

1) There was no real legal case against any part of the book in the first place

2) Despite (1) above, the aim was to get the publishers to cave in and pull out of publishing it through the legal pressure being put on them

3) If the real underlying issue really had been a concern about what was said about Hann in the book (and a concern about it being made public through publication), why then once the book was actually published did the legal threats suddenly stop? If it was such a black and white case of untruths & lies in the book, then surely once the book was actually published that would be the best time to proceed with more legal action. Instead we saw the reverse, it all melted away (or more correctly in changed tack and came from a different angle/vehicle in the shape of David Hoffman). Which suggests to me that things were not quite as they were made out to be on the surface. The interventions from CR seemed to be more about stopping the book from being published full stop, then when that failed they didn't seem to give a fuck about what was in it once it actually was published. For such a sustained legal pressure warning of what would happen if it was published to melt away immediately once it was published surely doesn't even smell right to you, no?


----------



## bignose1 (Feb 2, 2013)

love detective said:


> Events suggest otherwise. While CR carried out a sustained 6 month campaign of legal intimidation against the publishers while the book was in the publication process (which ironically in turn prompted a reexamination and an actual expansion of the passages describing the episode in the book), when the book was actually published, complete with these alleged 'false allegations' and 'lies', CR suddenly backed down, melted away, and all the bluster & bravado of the previous 6 months about the severe consequences of going ahead with publication disappeared. That says a number of things to me:-
> 
> 1) There was no real legal case against any part of the book in the first place
> 
> ...


 
Please do me a favour......there is no link between Searchlight/Hoffman and LP's quest to stop smears and lies. And you know it. It could be money/stress/intimidation/harassment whatever or a mixture of those reasons but this ultimately is about big ego's and destructive and malicious bullying by incessant repetitive and constant lies by a group of people who ultimately drove militant anti fascism into the ground and by de-politicising a key opponent to this being a tried and tested tactic (cue show trials)

By stitching up Dave you have tried to deflect the shame and approbation that should be visited on you. A shameful episode that hopefully people have seen through. Your project has clearly not worked but its not only due to the dodgy anti socialist appeal of the IWCM but clearly also about the individuals behind it.


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## Deareg (Feb 2, 2013)

love detective said:


> Well if you're not willing to believe us and are not prepared to ask Louise, why don't you ask Bignose about it, who actually confirms it in his post above.
> 
> Even better look at posts 3191 through 3270 of this thread, where he justifies the reasons for supplying the names of the authors to Carter Ruck (while simultaneously admitting and denying that he did so)


I thought you wouldn't be able to answer.


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## past caring (Feb 2, 2013)

You had a bump on the head or something?


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## TopCat (Feb 2, 2013)

Actions and words, it's all plain to see.


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## bignose1 (Feb 2, 2013)

TopCat said:


> Actions and words, it's all plain to see.


----------



## framed (Feb 2, 2013)

Deareg said:


> Dave was a good mate of mine and Louise has become a good friend as well, no real mystery there, I wont ask her because she is still grieving for her dead partner and the father of her children and I wont add to her suffering, you have chosen to raise it on a public forum and therefore I feel entitled to ask you to explain something that you claim to have happened and which I feel doesn't add up for the reasons that I put out in the post that you quoted.


 


I find this type of statement to be quite objectionable frankly, because it is not based on any political analysis or any notion of organisational responsibility. It's based on 'friendship' and emotion, not politics and comradeship. Many others were comrades and friends of Dave's too _(and your comrades too)_ and can still see the truth through the rose-tinted mist.

I don't think that there was anyone in Manchester closer to Dave than G, so how come he is unable to defend Dave?

Is he a liar too, as is implied with all others who promote or accept the Red Action narrative?

How come he feels no responsibility to protect either Dave's memory or Louise's grief, but you do?

I don't know if it's a case of people who weren't consulted about BTF feeling that they should have been and biting back at it, but the driving force of the BTF narrative came from London and the main organisers around the country, as it had to imho. It was necessary to provide a definitive history and political explanation of AFA, where it had come from and how its basic tenet of _'ideological and physical confrontation'_ rolled out in a number of areas. It would have been impossible to write a book like that based on the narrative of every single member of AFA, it couldn't even have been written based on extensive interviews with the membership of Red Action, because it wasn't that type of book. It was not _'hoolie porn'_ (the category that perhaps best describes _No Retreat_) nor was it _'oral history'_ (as _Physical Resistance_ appears to be). It was the explanation of the political _modus operandi_ of the leadership of AFA, with use of anecdotal evidence to demonstrate the effectiveness of that M.O.

I believe that _Beating The Fascists_ is an invaluable contribution to the history of the anti-fascist struggle. Imho it is a definitive explanation of the politics of AFA. The same cannot be said for No Retreat, it is inaccurate in a whole number of areas and, if anything, its authors consulted with a smaller milieu than did BTF, which saw the virtual reformation of the RA National Council to ratify early drafts in the run-up to publication. I've pointed out a number of errors in NR that only relate to Scotland, others here have far greater beefs than I have with NR.

_Physical Resistance_ is a far better book than NR and - _had it not been for the previous book and his denials of the circumstances around his departure from AFA and RA_ - Dave Hann might have left this world a happier man and been better thought of by all with this book. It might have served as fitting contrition for past errors, but the damage caused by NR, the issues around his expulsion from RA and AFA, and the attempts to block publication of BTF, have all left a sour taste.

There is also, of course, Louise Purbrick's personal contribution as Dave's editor, co-writer and wife/lover. The added emotion and melodrama from her has served no politically productive purpose imho and has sought to further divide people based on emotional blackmail and false perceptions of loyalty.

That her role in threatening legal action against the publishers of _Beating The Fascists_ is now either obscured, dismissed or re-spun here by her supporters and put down to 'grief' is interesting. Is she the driving force or the 'patsy'? There is little in her behaviour which suggests that she is not a willing participant. Whatever her motives, emotional or political, there is no justification for the legal threats and 6 month hounding of the publishers of BTF by Carter-Fuck, who acted on Louise's instruction.


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## Deareg (Feb 2, 2013)

And I find you accusing me of putting friendship before also objectionable, I have no intention of going back over all that again, if you don't already know what I had to say on it then I suggest that you reread the thread.


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## framed (Feb 2, 2013)

I based my post on what you said mate, it is directly quoted,

Dave wasn't that big a mate of yours, especially after you got nicked and you know why... G and Dave moaned like fcuk about that, as did others in RA. Glasgow was the only branch of RA to financially support you while you were in the nick, ever wondered why?


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## framed (Feb 2, 2013)

Here's the main points again though, which you didn't answer.

I don't think that there was anyone in Manchester closer to Dave than G, so how come he is unable to defend Dave?

Is he a liar too, as is implied with all others who promote or accept the Red Action narrative?

How come he feels no responsibility to protect either Dave's memory or Louise's grief, but you do?


----------



## Deareg (Feb 2, 2013)

framed said:


> Here's the main points again though, which you didn't answer.
> 
> I don't think that there was anyone in Manchester closer to Dave than G, so how come he is unable to defend Dave?
> 
> ...


I have addressed all those questions numerous times in this thread already and have no intention of doing so again, I suggest again that you reread the thread.
Dave was a comrade as well as friend, but you already knew that, and as it goes was well entitled to feel pissed off with me, shit happens and feelings ease off, we were good friends again when he died and I know that he had no hard feelings, fuck knows why G felt aggrieved?
But anyway, maybe you could answer the question below for me?

I know next to nothing about the law or suing people but I was under the impression that you could not sue on behalf of a dead person? Particularly one who not only already had a criminal record for football hooliganism, but had co-authored a book describing his involvement, participating and organising some extremely violent affairs, so I find it even stranger that any solicitors would threaten to sue on his behalf in such circumstances?


----------



## bignose1 (Feb 2, 2013)

framed said:


> Here's the main points again though, which you didn't answer.
> 
> I don't think that there was anyone in Manchester closer to Dave than G, so how come he is unable to defend Dave?
> 
> ...


 
Porky was off his face most of the time on whacky baccy while he was in Hulme and was infact a small time dealer. He was also one of the most unreliable people who missed many an op because he was either wasted or couldnt be arsed. I think the sally really missed him when he fucked off. Dont hold him up as some paragon of anti-fascist resistance.

He was a mate of mine too at one time but when he tried to read me the riot act on one occasion I thought fuck you and that was after I gave him a place to stay. He came back from India a fucking mess. Again another sycophant of the local RA criminal associate who conducted far more serious crimes than DH's alleged misdemeanours. Also ask Porky what are his views on Demus bullying of his little brother when he got him on the shovel. Theres another one to consider when you talk about how people really operate. Ive had enough of the bullshit and double standards from your lot. as far as NR is concerned of course I dont give a flying fuck what you and your pals think. Its out there and its in 3 languages. What Porky feels is of little significance.


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## TopCat (Feb 2, 2013)

Is this the best you have? To smear some one for smoking cannabis?


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## framed (Feb 2, 2013)

Deareg said:


> I know next to nothing about the law or suing people but I was under the impression that you could not sue on behalf of a dead person? Particularly one who not only already had a criminal record for football hooliganism, but had co-authored a book describing his involvement, participating and organising some extremely violent affairs, so I find it even stranger that any solicitors would threaten to sue on his behalf in such circumstances?


 
I think this point was already answered by LD a page ago. Dave Hann was not threatening to sue anyone. Dave Hann was dead.

His partner/lover/co-author/editor/widow Louise Purbrick was _threatening_ by means of legal letters, written on her behalf by the notorious libel experts Carter-Ruck, to sue on behalf of *Dave Hann's estate*, i.e. she was threatening legal action on behalf of a deceased person that you quite rightly point out had no reputation to defend. It is the use of the word *'estate'* that is key here, because it has nothing to do with Dave directly and everything to do with Louise and her sensibilities. She apparently believes herself and her children to be the living embodiment of Dave and, therefore, as much open to hurt and libel should his name be taken in vain as Dave might be himself were he still alive. The 'previous offences' defence does not wash, because it is not relevant to the legal action that Louise was threatening.

Are you now questioning the veracity of the claim that Louise Purbrick employed the services of Carter-Ruck to explore and advise her on the various legal methods by which Freedom Press and others could be pursued and harassed?

The implication of what you are now saying is that the threat of legal action by Louise via Carter-Ruck did not exist.

By my reckoning, that makes everyone a liar except Louise and Big Nose1...


----------



## manny-p (Feb 2, 2013)

Tell me to fuck off if you guys want. But can't all this be put behind youse now? Pretty depressing to read and it's all in the public domain.


----------



## framed (Feb 2, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> Porky was off his face most of the time on whacky baccy while he was in Hulme and was infact a small time dealer. He was also one of the most unreliable people who missed many an op because he was either wasted or couldnt be arsed. I think the sally really missed him when he fucked off. Dont hold him up as some paragon of anti-fascist resistance.
> 
> He was a mate of mine too at one time but when he tried to read me the riot act on one occasion I thought fuck you and that was after I gave him a place to stay. He came back from India a fucking mess. Again another sycophant of the local RA criminal associate who conducted far more serious crimes than DH's alleged misdemeanours. Also ask Porky what are his views on Demus bullying of his little brother when he got him on the shovel. Theres another one to consider when you talk about how people really operate. Ive had enough of the bullshit and double standards from your lot. as far as NR is concerned of course I dont give a flying fuck what you and your pals think. Its out there and its in 3 languages. What Porky feels is of little significance.


 

I am still friendly with Porky's brother btw and he thoroughly enjoyed working with the man you refer to. I've never heard a bad word from him against D. Where do you get this stuff mate? I'm beginning to think you may have been at the hallucinogenic drugs yourself.

G is the sore point for you because regardless of his 'stoner' status at the time, he realised what Dave and Mark had been up to and sobered up quite pronto. Indeed it was to G that Dave turned in his hour of need. His honesty and integrity have never been in doubt. NEVER.


----------



## Deareg (Feb 2, 2013)

manny-p said:


> Tell me to fuck off if you guys want. But can't all this be put behind youse now? Pretty depressing to read and it's all in the public domain.


Depressing isn't the word.


----------



## framed (Feb 2, 2013)

Deareg said:


> Depressing isn't the word.


 

I'd say illuminating...

Can you please clarify what exactly it is that you mean when you question the threat of legal action by Louise Purbrick on behalf of Dave Hann's 'estate'?

Are you saying that there was no threat of legal action and no letters on Louise's behalf from Carter-Ruck to Freedom threatening legal consequences should they go ahead and publish BTF?

Did you support her efforts to disrupt and delay the publishing of BTF?

Who paid the legal fees?

She's your friend, it's surely not an awkward question, so why not ask her?

Who paid for the services of Carter-Ruck?


----------



## plug ugly (Feb 3, 2013)

If it were Searchlight who paid for Carter-Ruck's services, as I think you believe, what are the wider political consequences?


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## bignose1 (Feb 3, 2013)

TopCat said:


> Is this the best you have? To smear some one for smoking cannabis?


You know its not about smoking cannabis or getting arseholed down the pub so fuck off. Its about reliability and double standards. Its also not a smear....thats when its a lie.


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## bignose1 (Feb 3, 2013)

plug ugly said:


> If it were Searchlight who paid for Carter-Ruck's services, as I think you believe, what are the wider political consequences?


 
Get a grip...just like they did with No Retreat eh


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## bignose1 (Feb 3, 2013)

framed said:


> I am still friendly with Porky's brother btw and he thoroughly enjoyed working with the man you refer to. I've never heard a bad word from him against D. Where do you get this stuff mate? I'm beginning to think you may have been at the hallucinogenic drugs yourself.
> 
> G is the sore point for you because regardless of his 'stoner' status at the time, he realised what Dave and Mark had been up to and sobered up quite pronto. Indeed it was to G that Dave turned in his hour of need. His honesty and integrity have never been in doubt. NEVER.


 
Afraid his bros old boss did Stevie along with others...quite a name for it. This is a man who surrounded himself with bullies and unfortunately you have to accept that when you associate with those same people its going to rub off. He was a bully...ask him why he used to twat those two brothers for no reason in Hulme every time he saw them.....shameful. And ask him when I met him in 'his' pub after not seeing him in over 15 years+ his almost first words were..'''should see the crew weve got now''...what....at 50 years of age ffs. For your record I dont do drugs and as many know during my active street period in politics up to about 95/6 never drank. That said I was well placed to observe people who did.

I went off Porky with his anti English shite. Heres a man living in Manchester, shagging an English bird..studying /signing/working....in Manchester. But would come out with '' I'd support any team against England and that includes South Africa'' ( who were still shooting blacks then) and Israel...(who continue to shoot people) And he meant it. But the clincher came when he tried the hard man and tried to bollock me for some nonsense. This being after Id given his fat arse a place to live. Regards the dope smoking...no problem...not my way but if you saw him around the time he went to India it was truly shocking. How much damage was being done prior and how much judgement went out the window?

Ive had a rake of people slagging me for defending friends etc but you fellah have just done the same when you know there were issues to do with his reliability and if youre a good friend..and I'm sure you are still then you WILL know. Therefore what Porky has to say on the matter can not be sustained.

This doesnt say that in civilian life hes not a decent likeable lad. Politically however he was wrong to take me to task and do others dirty work..well out of his depth esp regards the subject matter and its consequences.

It goes to say if he hadn't got involved in the debate about Louise's intentions he wouldnt have got such a shit report off me.


----------



## bignose1 (Feb 3, 2013)

manny-p said:


> Tell me to fuck off if you guys want. But can't all this be put behind youse now? Pretty depressing to read and it's all in the public domain.


 
Youre right Manny but these guys dont let up.....their harassment of an honest well intentioned principled woman and mother is one of the most disgraceful things Ive seen. A concerted hate campaign being run by a small band of malcontents with no influence anymore who have emabarked on this crusade because they have nothing else to offer


----------



## love detective (Feb 3, 2013)

Deareg said:


> I thought you wouldn't be able to answer.


 
I'm not sure what more you expect me to do for you (short off posting up the series of letters sent by Carter Ruck which would then leave me open to legal action by them for contravening the non-disclosure conditions placed upon them)

I've never come across someone so dogmatically determined to avoid coming into some kind of orbit with the basic facts of the matter. I mean fair enough if you don't believe what has been said from 'our side', but to then push a line that the whole thing never happened at all, which is even in direct contradiction to both what Louise or Bignose will tell you (if you were willing to ask/listen which you've already shown that you're not) is frankly absurd.

You seem to have decided from the outset, a priori, that the thing didn't happen and that's that - nothing will change that and despite Louise supposedly being a friend, you are publicly contradicting her (and by implication calling her a liar as well) about a matter you weren't involved in, know nothing about and are determined to avoid knowing anything about lest it interfere with your predetermined opinion on what happened


----------



## love detective (Feb 3, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> Please do me a favour......there is no link between Searchlight/Hoffman and LP's quest to stop smears and lies. And you know it. It could be money/stress/intimidation/harassment whatever or a mixture of those reasons but this ultimately is about big ego's and destructive and malicious bullying by incessant repetitive and constant lies by a group of people who ultimately drove militant anti fascism into the ground and by de-politicising a key opponent to this being a tried and tested tactic (cue show trials)
> 
> By stitching up Dave you have tried to deflect the shame and approbation that should be visited on you. A shameful episode that hopefully people have seen through. Your project has clearly not worked but its not only due to the dodgy anti socialist appeal of the IWCM but clearly also about the individuals behind it.


 
A lot of froth & words there, not one of them actually addressing the post they replied to however

I'll try and boil it down even further for you into a single sentence question:-

If as you say, the book contains 'false allegations' and 'lies' which were so obviously untrue, and the real basis of CR's involvement was to protect Dave's estate and its honourable reputation, why did the 6 month long campaign of legal threats & intimidation during the pre-publication period vanish the moment the book was actually published?


----------



## bignose1 (Feb 3, 2013)

love detective said:


> A lot of froth & words there, not one of them actually addressing the post they replied to however
> 
> I'll try and boil it down even further for you into a single sentence question:-
> 
> If as you say, the book contains 'false allegations' and 'lies' which were so obviously untrue, and the real basis of CR's involvement was to protect Dave's estate and its honourable reputation, why did the 6 month long campaign of legal threats & intimidation during the pre-publication period vanish the moment the book was actually published?


Ask her....Ive said my bit


----------



## LiamO (Feb 3, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> I went off Porky with his anti English shite. Heres a man living in Manchester, shagging an English bird..studying /signing/working....in Manchester. But would come out with '' *I'd support any team against England and that includes South Africa'' ( who were still shooting blacks then) and Israel...(who continue to shoot people) And he meant it*.


 
What? That's shocking. You mean just like Denis Law and Alex Ferguson then? Pat Crerand? You should call the Police.

Please direct me to somewhere you have publicly cunted off these three for their 'Anti-English"-ness.

This really is beyond parody and a shameless playing to the gallery - whilst simultaneously insulting the gallery with (frankly) BNP-type nonsense... "If they love Scotland/Ireland/Pakistan so much... why don't they fuck off back there..."

For real?

Big Nose. Catch yourself on. I have no idea why you do this. It does nothing at all for your position makes you sound ridiculous... as well as a bit of a nutter... and a complete High School bitch.


----------



## bignose1 (Feb 3, 2013)

LiamO said:


> What? That's shocking. You mean just like Denis Law and Alex Ferguson then? Pat Crerand? You should call the Police.
> 
> Please direct me to somewhere you have publicly cunted off these three for their 'Anti-English"-ness.
> 
> ...


 
I'm English born ( not proud , not racist , not xenophobic ) I hate the institutions and so I dont support any national teams...certainly dont sing the national anthem but took the jubilee holidays thank you Lizzie. So is that really a problem. Im in BNP land here?....interesting but where was Gerry...in Mossad and AWB territory. Come on fellah thats cheap. My antecedents are mainly Irish but I dont do the plastic shit. And I dont accept pathetic statements like Porky made not because its anti English so much you should have got that bit Liam, but because he's supporting those regimes i mentioned. Its the type of annoying petty behaviour that when repeatedly wheeled out can begin to put you off people quite quickly and begs the question i asked. In effect a City..night club ..football team...or a bird that I detested so much i would think whether it really should be where Im living....going...watching or shagging.........thats just bizzare.

(Like the so called United 'fans' who scream and shout and swear and slag Giggs calling him a useless Welsh cunt and Rooney a fat scouse wanker then go to the Megastore and spend £200 on a strip and duvet cover....I say fuck off elsewhere)

ps Liam I wish sometimes you would just look a little deeper. A rather feeble ticking off on this one from you...so Ill go stand in the corridor til the bell


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 3, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> Afraid his bros old boss did Stevie along with others...quite a name for it. This is a man who surrounded himself with bullies and unfortunately you have to accept that when you associate with those same people its going to rub off. He was a bully...ask him why he used to twat those two brothers for no reason in Hulme everytime he saw them.....shameful. And ask him when I met him in 'his' pub after not seeing him in over 15 years+ his almost first words were..'''should see the crew weve got now''...what....at 50 years of age ffs. For your record I dont do drugs and as many know during my active street period in politics up to about 95/6 never drank. That said I was well placed to observe people who did.
> 
> I went off Porky with his anti English shite. Heres a man living in Manchester, shagging an English bird..studying /signing/working....in Manchester. But would come out with '' I'd support any team against England and that includes South Africa'' ( who were still shooting blacks then) and Israel...(who continue to shoot people) And he meant it. But the clincher came when he tried the hard man and tried to bollock me for some nonsense. This being after Id given his fat arse a place to live. Regards the dope smoking...no problem...not my way but if you saw him around the time he went to India it was truly shocking. How much damage was being done prior and how much judgement went out the window?
> 
> ...


 
No wonder you and porky never hit it off in that diamond midfield we had


----------



## bignose1 (Feb 3, 2013)

Being a Man United supporter is another reason why I dont do England very well.


----------



## bignose1 (Feb 3, 2013)

The39thStep said:


> No wonder you and porky never hit it off in that diamond midfield we had


We were ok actually and G's mate Dave C(sweet left foot) was a pretty handy m/fielder, however getting them up for a ten start was a problem at times though when we switched to PM got slightly better ( or was that Red Dynamo) Fuck it. G was as I say and C his missus good people but it went sour as Ive outlined.

I will say when DH got involved with that Mark guy I didnt like it esp when he turned up at my house with some black guy demanding names and adresses and photos so they could gom and bash some fash. This was 12 at nihght so al;arm bells went off. Enough to say they were told where to get off. I think Gerry felt a bit put out by Daves new mate, me I thought he wasnt right. But I sincerely dont believe as has been mooted on here they went on a student bashing or taxing the pink pound spree. I was however told things started to get out of hand with the fash hunting in town. Of which Gerry played a part from time to time. But then so did a few others.


----------



## LiamO (Feb 3, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> I will say when DH got involved with that Mark guy I didnt like it esp when he turned up at my house with some black guy demanding names and adresses and photos so they could gom and bash some fash. This was 12 at nihght so al;arm bells went off...
> 
> ... I was however told things started to get out of hand with the fash hunting in town.


 
You have just conceded the central plank of your opposition's argument. 

That...

a) Dave had lost the run of himself

b) That he was involved in some dubious, self-serving, nocturnal activity

c) That this decline was not a quantum leap from Hollywood good guy to Pantomime villain... it was... as these things tend to be... a lot of small things which went unconnected/undetected that eventually snowballed... as these things tend to do.

Thus rendering most of the frothing on this thread as redundant as it is... ahem... unbecoming.


----------



## LiamO (Feb 3, 2013)

And you really should consider posting something more appropriate and three dimensional about Porky - something that focusses on his considerable political contribution rather than his liking for a bit of puff.

He was/is a genuine, gentle soul and a good friend as well as a fine political activist.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Feb 3, 2013)

manny-p said:


> Tell me to fuck off if you guys want. But can't all this be put behind youse now? Pretty depressing to read and it's all in the public domain.


 


bignose1 said:


> Youre right Manny but these guys dont let up.....their harassment of an honest well intentioned principled woman and mother is one of the most disgraceful things Ive seen. A concerted hate campaign being run by a small band of malcontents with no influence anymore who have emabarked on this crusade because they have nothing else to offer


 
0f course i can see your point 'mp' we all can. But take for instance the most recent allegation of 'a hate campaign against a principled woman'?

It is 100 per cent fiction.

Entirely made up.

Not a scintilla of truth in it.

Now do we allow this smear to go unchallenged and risk the credulous believing there is 'smoke without fire' or do we call them on it?

And if we decide to rise above it, do we also choose to ignore the counter factual narrative (that has purchase outside of this thread) that it was in fact AFA and not the BNP that abandoned the struggle for the streets?

And if we do that then it might be argued that even BTF was a mistake - 'opening up old wounds - washing dirty linen in public' and so forth.

So the question that needs to answered is this: whose interests are served by a substantial period of silence from AFA's founding members on a dedicated thread to '_Beating the Fascists'_?


----------



## bignose1 (Feb 3, 2013)

LiamO said:


> And you really should consider posting something more appropriate and three dimensional about Porky - something that focusses on his considerable political contribution rather than his liking for a bit of puff.
> 
> He was/is a genuine, gentle soul and a good friend as well as a fine political activist.


 
And who along with others has contributed to the trashing of my contribution.....yes?


----------



## bignose1 (Feb 3, 2013)

Joe Reilly said:


> 0f course i can see your point 'mp' we all can. But take for instance the most recent allegation of 'a hate campaign against a principled woman'?
> 
> It is 100 per cent fiction.
> 
> ...


 
But you introduce this ridiculous claim that Searchlight have been behind it all. This is very lazy and constant fantasising and incessant personalisation/demonisation demonstrates  your culpability in attempting to lead anti fascsim down a cul de sac.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Feb 3, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> But you introduce this ridiculous claim that Searchlight have been behind it all. This is very lazy and constant fantasising and incessant personalisation/demonisation clouds your culpability in attempting to lead anti fascsim down a cul de sac.


 
Why not tell us about the evil crusade against Miz Purbick?


----------



## bignose1 (Feb 3, 2013)

Joe Reilly said:


> Why not tell us about the evil crusade against Miz Purbick?


 
Read your own posts ffs


----------



## bignose1 (Feb 3, 2013)

LiamO said:


> And you really should consider posting something more appropriate and three dimensional about Porky - something that focusses on his considerable political contribution rather than his liking for a bit of puff.
> 
> He was/is a genuine, gentle soul and a good friend as well as a fine political activist.


 
Thats what they said about a certain other well known Manchester anti-fascist...


----------



## Joe Reilly (Feb 3, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> Read your own posts ffs


 
Is that an admission that there was 'no concerted hate campaign'.


----------



## bignose1 (Feb 3, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> Read your own posts ffs


 
Infact refer back to your own site circa 2003 to refresh your memories to find its roots. And perhaps of late indymedia and this thread.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Feb 3, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> Infact refer back to your own site circa 2003 to refresh your memories.


 
So 'no evil crusade against the Purbick family' then?


----------



## bignose1 (Feb 3, 2013)

Joe Reilly said:


> Is that an admission that there was 'no concerted hate campaign'.


 
You can try and be clever but you will always fail.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Feb 3, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> Infact refer back to your own site circa 2003 to refresh your memories to find its roots. And perhaps of late indymedia and this thread.


 
So no 'evil campaign against the Purbick family' then?


----------



## bignose1 (Feb 3, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> You can try and be clever but you will always fail.


 
Desperate.....


----------



## bignose1 (Feb 3, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> Desperate.....


 
and childish....


----------



## Joe Reilly (Feb 3, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> You can try and be clever but you will always fail.


 
It's not being clever. It's a simple question.

When you brought this up for the first time a few months back I called you on it then and you disappeared of the thread for a couple of months.

So I am now affording you a second opportunity to expand on your accussation that we ran 'evil and disgraceful campaign against the Purbick family'?


----------



## bignose1 (Feb 3, 2013)

And for those who dont give a fuck either way and who are keeping out of this....a person loses their partner of 15 years ..her 2 kids are grieving their dad and these twats are straight in. Fuck off.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Feb 3, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> And for those who dont give a fuck either way and who are keeping out of this....a person loses their partner of 15 years ..her 2 kids are grieving their dad and these twats are straight in. Fuck off.


 
So there was no 'vile and viscious campaign' was there.

You just made it up didn't you?


----------



## plug ugly (Feb 3, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> I will say when DH got involved with that Mark guy I didnt like it esp when he turned up at my house with some black guy demanding names and adresses and photos so they could gom and bash some fash. This was 12 at nihght so al;arm bells went off. Enough to say they were told where to get off. I think Gerry felt a bit put out by Daves new mate, me I thought he wasnt right. But I sincerely dont believe as has been mooted on here they went on a student bashing or taxing the pink pound spree. I was however told things started to get out of hand with the fash hunting in town. Of which Gerry played a part from time to time. But then so did a few others.


 
So Dave _did_ mug the fella but it wasn't because he was gay or a student?


----------



## Joe Reilly (Feb 3, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> And for those who dont give a fuck either way and who are keeping out of this...


 
No point in pleading for someone else to back you up - this accusation is exclusive to you...

Again for the upteenth time, I repeat, did we 'run a vile viscious and disgusting campaign against the Purbick family' or did you just make it up?


----------



## love detective (Feb 3, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> And for those who dont give a fuck either way and who are keeping out of this....a person loses their partner of 15 years ..her 2 kids are grieving their dad and these twats are straight in. Fuck off.


 
for the benefit of those who don't give a fuck either way and who are keeping out of it, what exactly do you mean by the _'straight in'_ in your post above?

can you expand on it, fill it out a bit more, give a flavour of the type of thing you are talking about, maybe even an example or two?


----------



## Joe Reilly (Feb 3, 2013)

ayatollah said:


> A few people around in the 1990's still bear a grudge at the destructuion of the AFA Network that RA/IWCA's attempt to convert it to a (non-socialist) local campaigning political party caused.


 
I suppose its asking too much that you put an actual date to your claim that ' the AFA network was deconstructed'.


----------



## bignose1 (Feb 3, 2013)

plug ugly said:


> So Dave _did_ mug the fella but it wasn't because he was gay or a student?


You can do one


----------



## bignose1 (Feb 3, 2013)

love detective said:


> for the benefit of those who don't give a fuck either way and who are keeping out of it, what exactly do you mean by the _'straight in'_ in your post above?
> 
> can you expand on it, fill it out a bit more, give a flavour of the type of thing you are talking about, maybe even an example or two?


 
You know what I mean.....smart arse


----------



## love detective (Feb 3, 2013)

I don't actually and neither does anyone reading this

So for the benefit of us all, flesh it out, put some meat on the bones, what exactly do you mean by the 'straight in'?

can you expand on it, fill it out a bit more, give a flavour of the type of thing you are talking about, maybe even an example or two?


----------



## bignose1 (Feb 3, 2013)

love detective said:


> I don't actually and neither does anyone reading this
> 
> So for the benefit of us all, flesh it out, put some meat on the bones, what exactly do you mean by the 'straight in'?
> 
> can you expand on it, fill it out a bit more, give a flavour of the type of thing you are talking about, maybe even an example or two?


 
Attack dogs....dirty fucking mischief making wankers. READ THROUGH THE FUCKING THREAD. Now fuck off Im having my tea.


----------



## cesare (Feb 3, 2013)

Not many people can be arsed reading through the thread. What's the big beef?


----------



## Joe Reilly (Feb 3, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> Attack dogs....dirty fucking mischief making wankers. READ THROUGH THE FUCKING THREAD. Now fuck off Im having my tea.


 
So it's the _entire_ BTF thread that is the 'viscious vile crusade against the Purbick family' now is it?  

And the book as well presumably?


----------



## love detective (Feb 3, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> Attack dogs....dirty fucking mischief making wankers. READ THROUGH THE FUCKING THREAD. Now fuck off Im having my tea.


 
you see you haven't added anything of substance there to back up your earlier claim, you've just called people names

you might recall that I asked if you were able to expand on it, fill it out a bit more, give a flavour of the type of thing you are talking about, maybe even give an example or two?

in what way were these attack dogs employed, in what form did the dirty fucking mischief making wankers make this dirty fucking mischief?

what do you mean by 'straight in'?


----------



## laptop (Feb 3, 2013)

Cros-posted from undercover cops thread:

not about kennedy, but other undercovers..
*http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/feb/03/police-spies-identities-dead-children*

"Peter Black".






Was he in anything other than the... odd Youth Against Racism in Europe?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 3, 2013)

laptop said:


> Cros-posted from undercover cops thread:
> 
> not about kennedy, but other undercovers..
> *http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/feb/03/police-spies-identities-dead-children*
> ...


That's John Dines AKA 'John Barker'.

'Pete Black' looks thus:


----------



## Joe Reilly (Feb 3, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> Attack dogs....dirty fucking mischief making wankers. READ THROUGH THE FUCKING THREAD. Now fuck off Im having my tea.


 
If your 'finished your tea' let me remind you what you said last September:


" In my opinion if you are prepared to write a book about your(AFA) experiences then authenticate it with a legitimate authorship. Even more so when for the past 8 years the same people have continually undermined, lied. smeared and threatened those behind NR. Including the most foul behaviour towards Dave Hanns family. A dirty sick episode carried out by those said people who are now crying foul..."

Now, if your now saying the 'vile crusade' is represented by 'The FUCKING THREAD' alone, then why did you previously describe it as 'a dirty sick _episode_'?

Because an episode heavily lends itself to an actual 'foul event' or a series of them against the Hann family dosen't it?

And for that to have happened would mean direct contact being made with the family.

Which in turn invited readers to form a mental image of what those 'sick' incidents might have entailed.

So far so good from your perspective.

However where you slipped up is that the best black propaganda always has the kernel of truth in it on which to fabricate the bigger story. Not so in this case.

Entirely the product of your imagination.


----------



## bignose1 (Feb 4, 2013)

Joe Reilly said:


> If your 'finished your tea' let me remind you what you said last September:
> 
> 
> " In my opinion if you are prepared to write a book about your(AFA) experiences then authenticate it with a legitimate authorship. Even more so when for the past 8 years the same people have continually undermined, lied. smeared and threatened those behind NR. Including the most foul behaviour towards Dave Hanns family. A dirty sick episode carried out by those said people who are now crying foul..."
> ...


 
No shit Sherlock


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Feb 4, 2013)

Brian Whelan mentions BTF as part of a piece on Freedom getting attacked:
http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/who-firebombed-londons-oldest-anarchist-bookshop


----------



## malatesta32 (Feb 4, 2013)

great top photo.


----------



## malatesta32 (Feb 4, 2013)

from Vice article: 
'Lying among the charred books strewn across the floor were a number of copies of *Beating The Fascists*, a history of AFA recently published by Freedom Press. The book is an uncomfortably violent read, detailing how half-bricks were used to convince young BNP members to pack it in.'


----------



## Joe Reilly (Feb 4, 2013)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Brian Whelan mentions BTF as part of a piece on Freedom getting attacked:
> http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/who-firebombed-londons-oldest-anarchist-bookshop


 

"The last time I stopped by the shop they had just been posted a copy of an ultra-nationalist magazine reviewing the book. Its admission of the ruthless tactics used to defeat the right had clearly touched some nerves. Embarrassed has-beens from Combat 18 could have come back to settle old scores, just last week they hosted a secret gig in London."

The news of the review may itself be significant because the far-right as a whole have managed to ignore near any mention BTF at all in  the 2 years since publication. But why would they post the actual review to FP? Curious.


----------



## malatesta32 (Feb 4, 2013)

got to admit that the fash have remained very quiet about BTF. maybe the cover price put them off?


----------



## Red Storm (Feb 4, 2013)

Joe Reilly said:


> "The last time I stopped by the shop they had just been posted a copy of an ultra-nationalist magazine reviewing the book. Its admission of the ruthless tactics used to defeat the right had clearly touched some nerves. Embarrassed has-beens from Combat 18 could have come back to settle old scores, just last week they hosted a secret gig in London."
> 
> The news of the review may itself be significant because the far-right as a whole have managed to ignore near any mention BTF at all in the 2 years since publication. But why would they post the actual review to FP? Curious.


 
I'd be interested to read the review. 

I wonder why it's not made it online yet?


----------



## malatesta32 (Feb 4, 2013)

cos its illegible and bollocks maybe?


----------



## Joe Reilly (Feb 4, 2013)

Red Storm said:


> I'd be interested to read the review.
> 
> I wonder why it's not made it online yet?


 
So would I as it happens. The one exception to the apparant blanket ban on any mention of BTF on the far-right, including more than one attempt to start a thread on stormfront being blocked for instance, was Joey Owens on the rather obscure VNN (is it?) site. He started off by claiming he was mentioned in it a few times which he was rightly ridiculed for. Then the thread grew more interesting with discussions about the book including various character profiles of activists on our side. I went out for a couple of jars and when I checked in the following morning someone had taken the edotorial decision to roll up the thread back to where the slagging off of joey owens ended. And that was that. End of discussion.


----------



## malatesta32 (Feb 4, 2013)

and the end of joey owens too it seems.


----------



## Red Storm (Feb 4, 2013)

Joe Reilly said:


> So would I as it happens. The one exception to the apparant blanket ban on any mention of BTF on the far-right, including more than one attempt to start a thread on stormfront being blocked for instance, was Joey Owens on the rather obscure VNN (is it?) site. He started off by claiming he was mentioned in it a few times which he was rightly ridiculed for. Then the thread grew more interesting with discussions about the book including various character profiles of activists on our side. I went out for a couple of jars and when I checked in the following morning someone had taken the edotorial decision to roll up the thread back to where the slagging off of joey owens ended. And that was that. End of discussion.



I saw that thread but I remember reading it more than once. 

Joey Owen's must think a lot of himself. He googles himself so much he's the Anti-Fascist Archive's 4th highest search referral.


----------



## malatesta32 (Feb 4, 2013)

really, thats hilarious! he was fucked off from stormfront for being a bugle and then he went over to VNN but got a lot of flack for writing *EVERYTHING*  in *CAPITALS*  and in *BOLD* calling everyone a *SNITCH*. his 'autobiography' is appalling.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Feb 4, 2013)

Red Storm said:


> I saw that thread but I remember reading it more than once.


 
Before or after it was edited?


----------



## Red Storm (Feb 4, 2013)

Joe Reilly said:


> Before or after it was edited?


 
I don't know to be honest. I just remember seeing it and linking it a few times.

Liam Pinkham was talking about a group of anti-fascists confronting him in Liverpool, that's why I remember it.


----------



## Red Storm (Feb 4, 2013)

http://vnnforum. *BREAK *com/showthread.php?t=118215

Is that the thread you meant?


----------



## Joe Reilly (Feb 4, 2013)

Red Storm said:


> I don't know to be honest. I just remember seeing it and linking it a few times.
> 
> Liam Pinkham was talking about a group of Manchester anti-fascists confronting him in Liverpool, that's why I remember it.


 
The un-edited flagged the names (more than one of whom you interviewed for your dissertation) of a number of what they considered to be anti-fascist standard bearers of the time and ruminated on their places in the food chain and so on....


----------



## Joe Reilly (Feb 4, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> cos its illegible and bollocks maybe?


 
Didn't deter you from posting up your review of BTF did it!?


----------



## Red Storm (Feb 4, 2013)

Joe Reilly said:


> The un-edited flagged the names (more than one of whom you interviewed for your dissertation) of a number of what they considered to be anti-fascist standard bearers of the time and ruminated on their places in the food chain and so on....


 
Ah, I didn't see that version. 

I remember only seeing Dessie Noonan mentioned. Although I think I first read it before I knew about the people associated with _BtF_.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Feb 4, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> No shit Sherlock


 
'No shit Sherlock' is the kind of shameless response you'd expect from the likes of Jimmy Saville on being confronted on his prediliction for underage girls.

But in the wider scheme of things, it is probabaly the nearest we are ever going to get to whats amounts to a guilty plea, on this forum at least.

Now that we've put the evil crusade against the Purbick family to bed can I draw your attention to a remark you made on Jan 14:

The sentence of most interest is underlined.

"I know it sounds a bit wet but I think you need to have some normal mates. Dave and his family became close friends and I have defended Dave against the allegations made by OShea etc because I know them to be untrue....not because he's a pal.

They concocted a smear campaign after they were found out to have lied about it. I dont expect those who have been behind the most recent attacks on him and his ex partner to show ny let up. No doubt any review they may write will all be about them and their absolute inability to let their bruised ego's recover from the fact that others had the audacity to write a book on a subject they feel they own. Crivvens. (c)

What is it we 'were found out to have lied about'? In your own time.


----------



## malatesta32 (Feb 4, 2013)

Joe Reilly said:


> Didn't deter you from posting up your review of BTF did it!?


you berk, i meant the fash's review of BtF! in the 'malatesta' book BtF is called 'superb' and 'the best book about militant antifascism by militants themselves.' You're welcome!


----------



## cesare (Feb 4, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> you berk, i meant the fash's review of BtF! in the 'malatesta' book BtF is called 'superb' and 'the best book about militant antifascism by militants themselves.' You're welcome!


You were right about the introduction, btw.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 4, 2013)

Red Storm said:


> http://vnnforum. *BREAK *com/showthread.php?t=118215
> 
> Is that the thread you meant?


 


> the reds of today are mainly drug abusers, homesexuals and hippie Green party voters.


----------



## bignose1 (Feb 4, 2013)

Joe Reilly said:


> 'No shit Sherlock' is the kind of shameless response you'd expect from the likes of Jimmy Saville on being confronted on his prediliction for underage girls.
> 
> But in the wider scheme of things, it is probabaly the nearest we are ever going to get to whats amounts to a guilty plea, on this forum at least.
> 
> ...


 
You hounded and threatened Dave when he was alive and you continued posthumously to deliver your killer blows when he was no longer here to defend himself so his family were easy targets to continue your crusade. You are by far the most despicanble creatue Ive come across in recent times and thats saying somthing.

Your own skeletons should make you think very closely about potential 'unsubstantiated allegations'. I think you are in denial because of this so I would advise you to go away and re appraise your tack.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Feb 4, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> You hounded and threatened Dave when he was alive and you continued posthumously to deliver your killer blows when he was no longer here to defend himself so his family were easy targets to continue your crusade. You are by far the most despicanble creatue Ive come across in recent times and thats saying somthing.
> 
> Your own skeletons should make you think very closely about potential 'unsubstantiated allegations'. I think you are in denial because of this so I would advise you to go away and re appraise your tack.


 
Ok. So again there actually was no 'lie'. It follows there can be no 'being found out' either?

Accordingly the 'smear campaign concocted to cover the non-existent lie' falls.

Just something else, as with the entirely fictitious 'crusade against the Purbicks' you have just made up as you go along, didn't you?

Not only that, but you throw in a couple of - fresh allegations.

The last time I set eyes on Dave was probably 1995.

I have had no contact with him since.

Not in person, not by email, not by phone.

So once again I invite you to expand on the allegations that I personally 'hounded and threatened' him?


----------



## Joe Reilly (Feb 4, 2013)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Brian Whelan mentions BTF as part of a piece on Freedom getting attacked:
> http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/who-firebombed-londons-oldest-anarchist-bookshop


 
On another thread: "If you ask Freedom they can confirm that when threatened with legal action by a certain NUJ activist to reveal the names of the authors of Beating The Fascists (I had interviewed them to promote the book) I chose to pay out of my own pocket rather than compromise the authors. I also offered support to Freedom and the authors when my situation was resolved." Brian Whelan

The NUJ activist in question was Hoffman who offered to waive the £400 if Whelan cooperated. Not dissimilar /threats/offers were made FP staff individually and collectively. Their refusal to play ball cost them £4000.

Oh, did I forget to mention that Hoffman is a Searchlight photographer?


----------



## TopCat (Feb 5, 2013)

I was watching the World in Action AFA programme from 1993 last night. I thought it important to show my gf what the times back then were about, particularly since I can foresee a need in the not too distant future for similar no platform tactics to be employed once again on a large scale.

It really grated at the end to see the credits where "AFA would like to thank Searchlight". Of all the possible thanks, to thank Searchlight? This being 8 years after Searchlight lied about and smeared Class War?

On a separate note, this then took me this morning to Searchlights web page. It said Charlie Sarjent has been released on licence. Has anything been heard of the horrible little fucker?


----------



## Inigo Montoya (Feb 5, 2013)

Joe Reilly said:


> On another thread: "If you ask Freedom they can confirm that when threatened with legal action by a certain NUJ activist to reveal the names of the authors of Beating The Fascists (I had interviewed them to promote the book) I chose to pay out of my own pocket rather than compromise the authors. I also offered support to Freedom and the authors when my situation was resolved." Brian Whelan
> 
> The NUJ activist in question was Hoffman who offered to waive the £400 if Whelan cooperated. Not dissimilar /threats/offers were made FP staff individually and collectively. Their refusal to play ball cost them £4000.
> Oh, did I forget to mention that Hoffman is a Searchlight photographer?


 
On a related note, a 15 comment thread has developed over the last 24hrs on Paul Stott's blog after he (falsely) accused Whelan of being "closely associated" with Hope Not Hate.

http://paulstott.typepad.com/i_inte...o-was-behind-the-attack-on-freedom-press.html


----------



## Joe Reilly (Feb 5, 2013)

TopCat said:


> It really grated at the end to see the credits where "AFA would like to thank Searchlight". Of all the possible thanks, to thank Searchlight? This being 8 years after Searchlight lied about and smeared Class War?


 
Really? I never noticed. I can assure you that had nothing to do with AFA. It was very much daggers drawn by late 1993 as BTF makes clear. Even Copsey admits the entire programme was designed to derail AFA. That Searchlight were behind it is beyond doubt. In any event what is in it that we would have to thank Searchlight for?

Funnily enough, some years later when we sold Panorama the Copeland footage, a key part of the agreement was that AFA be accredited. Panorama reneged. We took the BBC to court for infringement of intellectual copyright and won.


----------



## bignose1 (Feb 5, 2013)

Joe Reilly said:


> On another thread: "If you ask Freedom they can confirm that when threatened with legal action by a certain NUJ activist to reveal the names of the authors of Beating The Fascists (I had interviewed them to promote the book) I chose to pay out of my own pocket rather than compromise the authors. I also offered support to Freedom and the authors when my situation was resolved." Brian Whelan
> 
> The NUJ activist in question was Hoffman who offered to waive the £400 if Whelan cooperated. Not dissimilar /threats/offers were made FP staff individually and collectively. Their refusal to play ball cost them £4000.
> 
> Oh, did I forget to mention that Hoffman is a Searchlight photographer?


 
So whats the Searchlight stuff to do with me? And your previous post about not seeing Dave since 95..I think youll find thats never been said. WTF are you on. You talk in riddles and no matter what you say and all the bluster, you remain a bully, compulsive liar and hypocrite who when faced with what you considered 'treachery' by an individual decided along with like minded people to deconstruct actual events then  reinvent a whole new scenario which would place you in a position to manipulate others. It seems on here that is what you are doing with your inane repetitive posting. Go away. Your time is gone.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 5, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> So whats the Searchlight stuff to do with me? And your previous post about not seeing Dave since 95..I think youll find thats never been said. WTF are you on. You talk in riddles and no matter what you say and all the bluster, you remain a bully, compulsive liar and hypocrite who when faced with what you considered 'treachery' by an individual decided along with like minded people to deconstruct actual events then reinvent a whole new scenario which would place you in a position to manipulate others. It seems on here that is what you are doing with your inane repetitive posting. Go away. Your time is gone.


 

I think that Joe's posts have been crystal clear. He asserts he had no contact with Dave Hann in any form since 1995. Do you refute this? If he did not have any contact with Dave Hann as he asserts, how was this campaign against Dave and his family as you assert waged?


----------



## Joe Reilly (Feb 5, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> So whats the Searchlight stuff to do with me?


 
Well,on the face of it nothing, apart from your previous denial of a link:

"Please do me a favour......there is no link between Searchlight/Hoffman and LP's quest to stop smears and lies."

and this latest post to distance yourself from it?


----------



## malatesta32 (Feb 5, 2013)

TopCat said:


> I was watching the World in Action AFA programme from 1993 last night. I thought it important to show my gf what the times back then were about,
> 
> Mal: how romantic! however the BTF promo is most impressive and dare i say exciting?
> 
> ...


----------



## malatesta32 (Feb 5, 2013)

this in stormfront about sergeant: 
http://www.stormfront dot org/forum/t860216-7/


----------



## TopCat (Feb 5, 2013)

Sorry maletesta it's took me a while to work out what you were posting given the quoted format.

It took me back watching the World In Action programme. When I look back over the last 30 plus years and think just how many attempts their have been to derail/divert and destabilise militant anti fascism from within, from without, from everywhere, it's a credit to the single minded focus of a core group that these attempts never stopped some of the most singularly effective action against the far right we have seen in our lifetimes. Respect to them.


----------



## malatesta32 (Feb 5, 2013)

totally right TC. in the research for the antifash book i have to say that RA and AFA have come out of it all very well. apart from the stupid 'squadism' nonsense from SWP, it can be safely said that in regards to anti-fash activity RA took it to em and WON! and the fash knew it and still talk about it.  AFA by extension was also highly successful in achieving exactly what it set out to do. the far right, apart from attacking ANL leafleters in brick lane NEVER scored a decisive victory over RA/AFA and as for C18, to quote bob hoskins, 'i shit em!' RA/AFA successes are extremely impressive and are a bona fide part of UK antifascist history up there with 43 Group etc. which is why this thread is a bit depressing as most people here who did the business, the key players, have enormous respect from antifascists past and present and, to quote the delectable doris day they shd 'put it in a box, tie it with a ribbon and throw it in the deep blue say!'


----------



## framed (Feb 5, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> So whats the Searchlight stuff to do with me? And your previous post about not seeing Dave since 95..I think youll find thats never been said. WTF are you on. You talk in riddles and no matter what you say and all the bluster, you remain a bully, compulsive liar and hypocrite who when faced with what you considered 'treachery' by an individual decided along with like minded people to deconstruct actual events then reinvent a whole new scenario which would place you in a position to manipulate others. It seems on here that is what you are doing with your inane repetitive posting. Go away. Your time is gone.


 
If ever there was a complete misreading of a thread, this is it.

You have continually inferred a campaign of harassment against Louise Purbrick by the authors of _Beating the Fascists_, when in fact the reverse is the case. It is Louise Purbrick, by means of legal threats, who attempted to threaten, intimidate and bully the publishers and authors of _BtF_ into silence over the true nature of the events which led to Hann's expulsion from Red Action and AFA.

You directly accused Reilly and his 'gang' of hounding and threatening Dave Hann and his family. That's not true and you know it.

I attended meetings with senior RA members after the publication of _No Retreat_ and I never saw anyone so much as lose their temper over it. People were shocked that he had the balls to try to rewrite his own personal history within AFA and to invent political disagreements that led to his departure from AFA rather than admit the truth that it was the mugging case that made his position within both organisations (and the Red Attitude fanzine) completely untenable.

The conclusion drawn by Red Action members in relation to NR was that the falsehoods it contained would have to be answered *politically* and the record put straight. And that is what happened. In a couple of pages of _Beating the Fascists_ we exercised our right of reply to the lies contained in Dave's account of his political activities and reasons for his expulsion.

There was no hate campaign, no threats, no hounding, no intimidation, no bullying and no beatings. All inferences and accusations of such are false; complete and utter lies.

People who were not close to the events or individuals concerned may not see the point in continuing this thread, but as long as BigNose1 continues to pour false allegations on top of false allegations, it will never end.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 5, 2013)

framed said:


> People who were not close to the events or individuals concerned may not see the point in continuing this thread, but as long as BigNose1 continues to pour false allegations on top of false allegations, it will never end.


 
This is the appropriate place for discussion for all issues pertaining to the history of AFA given it's a thread about exactly that (AFA).

Just because "Bignose " is attempting to use the thread to put forward a (revisionist) account of what happened in his eyes matters not a jot. if he keeps on doing so then his points need to be continually rebutted or if true admitted. 

That he is also trying to use the thread to rehabilitate himself in some way is interesting. 

Given his associations with Searchlight and _their_ attempts through several conduits to intimidate the authors and publishers of BTF is also very telling. 

People can read the thread for themselves and make up their own mind as to who is telling the truth about what. The refusal by Bignose to answer pretty much any tricky question regarding his behaviour and or involvement in attempting to undermine BTF is also very telling. I await his latest insults with interest. 

Big nose, how many of the comments on Indymedia about BTF were you responsible for?


----------



## gawkrodger (Feb 5, 2013)

Is the WIA docco online anywhere?


----------



## framed (Feb 5, 2013)

gawkrodger said:


> Is the WIA docco online anywhere?


 
Is this what you're looking for?

*Violence with Violence *

*(World in Action, 1993)*


----------



## framed (Feb 6, 2013)

TopCat said:


> I was watching the World in Action AFA programme from 1993 last night. I thought it important to show my gf what the times back then were about, particularly since I can foresee a need in the not too distant future for similar no platform tactics to be employed once again on a large scale.
> 
> It really grated at the end to see the credits where "AFA would like to thank Searchlight". Of all the possible thanks, to thank Searchlight? This being 8 years after Searchlight lied about and smeared Class War?
> 
> On a separate note, this then took me this morning to Searchlights web page. It said Charlie Sarjent has been released on licence. Has anything been heard of the horrible little fucker?


 
Not sure that AFA would be in a position to thank anyone for their help in making a World In Action documentary. We definitely wouldn't have thanked even the programme makers for that one.

Are you mixing it up with the 1992 BBC Open Space programme - FIGHTING TALK - that was made under AFA editorship with the BBC's Community Programmes Unit?


----------



## framed (Feb 6, 2013)

Camilla said:


> violence is so horrible


 
But sometimes necessary.

Do you have an alternative method of confronting violent fascists?


----------



## framed (Feb 6, 2013)

Camilla said:


> being nice to them? They have moms & pets too


 
I don't think this thread is for you Camilla.


----------



## framed (Feb 6, 2013)

Camilla said:


> why? The people here seem nice


 
Watch the videos... bye bye!


----------



## Casually Red (Feb 6, 2013)

Camilla said:


> violence is so horrible


 
sos trolling and taking the piss


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 6, 2013)




----------



## frogwoman (Feb 6, 2013)

this must be a pisstake. why would a 10 year old be on this thread?


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 6, 2013)

Camilla said:


> jesus, you're mean


 
You are not a real person.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 6, 2013)

Mind you i say that, i was looking at this site when i was 13


----------



## framed (Feb 6, 2013)

...


----------



## Red Storm (Feb 6, 2013)

gawkrodger said:


> Is the WIA docco online anywhere?


 
To credit the source: it's thanks to bignose that the doc is online.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 6, 2013)

framed said:


> Are you mixing it up with the 1992 BBC Open Space programme - FIGHTING TALK - that was made under AFA editorship with the BBC's Community Programmes Unit?




I did mix them up, apologies for the confusion.


----------



## LiamO (Feb 6, 2013)

What did you mix up? Now you're adding to the confusion


----------



## bignose1 (Feb 6, 2013)

TopCat said:


> This is the appropriate place for discussion for all issues pertaining to the history of AFA given it's a thread about exactly that (AFA).
> 
> Just because "Bignose " is attempting to use the thread to put forward a (revisionist) account of what happened in his eyes matters not a jot. if he keeps on doing so then his points need to be continually rebutted or if true admitted.
> 
> ...


 
You continue to peddle the nonsense about me and my association with Searchlight inferring that I had and still have a relationship. Ive already said I left Searchlight in 94 following 'disagreements' This is probably not long after AFA/RA did likewise. So why do you continually rattle this out ...if only to mischief make. Let me take you back to the RA forum. You really should go back there and read the stuff. Which you moderated. Threats were rife...numerous personal insults.....and Dave was threatened with being stabbed. It very nasty shite for which you were responsible.

I was informed that because of all this, discussions were held and subsequently the forum was closed down. How many unpleasant posts did you write? Before you ask me about Indymedia.

Why do I need to rehabiliate myself....and for who's sake.....Yours ?

I think you just havnt got the nouse to understand exactly what a campaign of harrassment actual entails rather than deliberately repeating a mantra that you hope will eventually wear me down. That wont ever happen but please show some insight It isnt about turning up at someones house ballied up. You were a bit more pernicious. But on saying that their was nothing subtle when I was attacked in a pub by some of Denis Cliffords cohorts a couple of years ago at his request. Following this was told I wasnt welcome in a certain pub which if it wasnt a threat what was it. This is a man who has hidden behind gangsters all his life. People responsible for way way more unsavoury activities than DH's alleged crimes. Any comments on that?. Clifford famously saying around the same time, ' should see the crew weve got now.' Comments please as to why a 50 yr old man needs to say that. Is it because him/you operate in a type of atmosphere which is unable/unwilling to differentiate from the the AFA no nonsense stuff with the fash with anyone who dares fuck with you. Having the audacity to write a book......leave an organisation.....or run a fanzine was not permitted and for this non compliance a hate/smear campaign ensued in all its guises and often with violence lurking. Infact one of the reasons Dave left Manchester.

You should revisit the RA forum, indeed so should anyone on here who hasnt made their mind up regard what motivates the persistent revisiont RA lies.....(its still archived on the web.) That campaign was practice for what came later.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 6, 2013)

LiamO said:


> What did you mix up? Now you're adding to the confusion


Sorry, I mixed up the World In Action programme with the Fighting Talk one with Mensi pictured above. It was the latter that had a credit "AFA would like to thank Searchlight" not the former.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 6, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> You continue to peddle the nonsense about me and my association with Searchlight inferring that I had and still have a relationship. Ive already said I left Searchlight in 94 following 'disagreements' This is probably not long after AFA/RA did likewise. So why do you continually rattle this out ...if only to mischief make. Let me take you back to the RA forum. You really should go back there and read the stuff. Which you moderated. Threats were rife...numerous personal insults.....and Dave was threatened with being stabbed. It very nasty shite for which you were responsible.
> 
> I was informed that because of all this, discussions were held and subsequently the forum was closed down. How many unpleasant posts did you write? Before you ask me about Indymedia.
> 
> ...


 

You could do with re reading this thread. I am not nor ever have been a member of Red Action. I have never "moderated" the Red Action forums. I can't recollect ever posting on them. I am not responsible for any "nasty shite" as you allege.

I was a member of _*Class War*_ in the 80's at the time of the Searchlight inspired allegations against Class War. These allegations sapped the strength of Class War at a time when it was advancing strongly. I still have a huge amount of anger about these allegations even after all these years. I wrote about this in the early pages of this thread. People from RA were straightforward on this thread in discussing their point of view over this with regard to why they still _dealt with_ Searchlight up until 1994 and _on what basis_.

You however (according to your own words on this thread) were a _Searchlight_ _man_. You assert you no longer have any association with Searchlight. I tend to view this with a pinch of salt, mainly because Searchlight operatives are not known for telling the truth.

Add to that your continual refusal to answer pretty much any questions put to you on this thread, instead you just insult all and sundry whilst attacking the integrity of people in RA for whom I have a huge amount of respect for, knowing what they did during these times to which we refer.

Although I am an anarchist, given the choice I would hang on with RA when (on several occasions) actions against the fascists were carried out because although I might get insulted all day long, they were effective and would never leave me on my arse getting a kicking.

So back to the questions I asked. How many of the comments on Indymedia on the BTF thread were you responsible for?


----------



## bignose1 (Feb 6, 2013)

TopCat said:


> You could do with re reading this thread. I am not nor ever have been a member of Red Action. I have never "moderated" the Red Action forums. I can't recollect ever posting on them. I am not responsible for any "nasty shite" as you allege.
> 
> I was a member of _*Class War*_ in the 80's at the time of the Searchlight inspired allegations against Class War. These allegations sapped the strength of Class War at a time when it was advancing strongly. I still have a huge amount of anger about these allegations even after all these years. I wrote about this in the early pages of this thread. People from RA were straightforward on this thread in discussing their point of view over this with regard to why they still _dealt with_ Searchlight up until 1994 and _on what basis_.
> 
> ...


 
You now become the victim in this. Let me tell you one thing. Its never been a secret I was Searchlights 'man' in the N/W but I left Searchlight because I was unable to accept certain conditions. I was accused of associating with people they did not approve of. I did not like the way they attacked CW and that must be on record somewhere. As I couldnt reconcile these things with my core beliefs it was better we parted ways. I did not see speak or communicate with GG for nearly 18 years until I met him at Eva Gabrielsonns book launch in London a year or so ago.

Neither for the record am I involved with HnH. But obviously you still think I will lie about this and thats why I find your comments a bit rich. I will answer the indymedia question when the RA people on here tell me they wernt responsible for posting stuff about me on their forum circa 2003. You take a good look at them and then tell me why they are only the ones allowed the right to question other peoples integrity.........stuff that was brought up make it handbags on here. They started it and you have your own agenda which I can agree with regards how CW were treated but because of that it will never allow me to come out of this sad affair with any credibility regardless of what I say.


----------



## Red Storm (Feb 6, 2013)

I thought you wrote some stuff for the HnH website?


----------



## bignose1 (Feb 6, 2013)

Red Storm said:


> I thought you wrote some stuff for the HnH website?


 
You thought wrong


----------



## TopCat (Feb 6, 2013)

It's on the face of it bizarre to respond bignose that you would only answer a straight forward question from me when you get a response to questions you have asked of others, the others being people I have no influence over?


----------



## plug ugly (Feb 6, 2013)

You are pals with Nick Lowles right? Bignose?


----------



## framed (Feb 6, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> You...blah blah blah blah blah blah....


 
It never ends...


----------



## TopCat (Feb 6, 2013)

plug ugly said:


> You are pals with Nick Lowles right? Bignose?


 
If Bignose lies down with this dog (Nick Lowles), then he definitely has fleas.


----------



## bignose1 (Feb 6, 2013)

plug ugly said:


> You are pals with Nick Lowles right? Bignose?





TopCat said:


> If Bignose lies down with this dog (Nick Lowles), then he definitely has fleas.


This is the typical nonsense I was talking about. I rest my case.


----------



## bignose1 (Feb 6, 2013)

framed said:


> It never ends...



Ill give you that one Stevie


----------



## bignose1 (Feb 6, 2013)

TopCat said:


> If Bignose lies down with this dog (Nick Lowles), then he definitely has fleas.


Whatever Nick Lowles did to earn your displeasure as far as I know he never murdered, tortured or beat people up gratuitously sold drugs or ran protection rackets. Answer that wanker.


----------



## bignose1 (Feb 6, 2013)

The lieing down with a dog with fleas argument you will lose.


----------



## bignose1 (Feb 6, 2013)

TopCat said:


> It's on the face of it bizarre to respond bignose that you would only answer a straight forward question from me when you get a response to questions you have asked of others, the others being people I have no influence over?


 
Dont get technical.......answer my questions? Or shut up .


----------



## love detective (Feb 6, 2013)

speaking of answering questions




			
				love detective said:
			
		

> bignose1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Returning to this for a moment, why is it so difficult to give even one example of what you actually meant by 'straight in' in your post above?

You've even talked about this in later posts in terms of a 'crusade' which conjours up in the mind all sorts of events and vivid imageries, but so far you've failed to give a single solitary example of what you are talking about

Obviously you can't as it's utter bullshit, hence your backtracking and avoidance tactics of the last few pages

it's pretty low though, painting this picture of a woman with two children who has lost her partner being hounded and harassed by people connected to BTF - a reasonable person couldn't help but feel repulsed at anyone acting in this way, which is presumably why you chose to smear people in that overly emotive and heart tugging way. Problem is, as you well know, there's not an atom of truth in any of it, i know this for a fact, which in turn casts substantial doubt over a lot of what you've said in relation to other things.


----------



## bignose1 (Feb 6, 2013)

Some toss pot out of the blue throws this Lowles thing in and hey we now have a 5 pager about whether Im pally with him. You must be desperate.


----------



## love detective (Feb 6, 2013)

why don't we ignore the Lowles thing then and we can return to my question from a few pages ago, as per above

(or would it be more convenient to focus on the distractions from it?)


----------



## bignose1 (Feb 6, 2013)

love detective said:


> speaking of answering questions
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Really sorry but it did happen. I wish it hadnt.


----------



## love detective (Feb 6, 2013)

what happened?


----------



## framed (Feb 6, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> Ill give you that one Stevie


 
Cheers. 



bignose1 said:


> I will answer the indymedia question when the RA people on here tell me they wernt responsible for posting stuff about me on their forum circa 2003. You take a good look at them and then tell me why they are only the ones allowed the right to question other peoples integrity.........stuff that was brought up make it handbags on here.


 
You've referred to the discussion on the RA message board several times now. A statement on _No Retreat_ was posted there on 31st October 2003. You say that the discussion around the book is still available on archive. I've had a good search around for it and so far I've been unable to find it, even on the cached remnants of the old RA site on both the American and UK internet archives.

Can you please provide a link to the archived material that you claim contains threats and allegations against you and Dave?

We can all read this Urban thread and the Indymedia thread and make up our own minds. However, you've now introduced a third reference point, but no links to it and no direct quotes from it.

I think it's only fair that you provide the link and let people here assess the material for themselves.

I'd like to go back over it myself, as I'm sure others would. I can't recall anyone being directly threatened on it and definitely don't remember anyone from Red Action (or any other organisation) threatening to 'stab' Dave.


----------



## plug ugly (Feb 6, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> This is the typical nonsense I was talking about. I rest my case.


 




			
				Nick Lowles said:
			
		

> We've shifted 270,000 newspapers from our warehouse to venues across Greater Manchester today. Next weekend we hope to distribute these across Manchester but as you can imagine this is quite a logistical operation. Fortunately I'm being assisted in this by a great team we have around HnH in Manchester, which ranges from the trade unions to the political parties, community groups to the Bishop of Manchester's office.
> 
> The sun is now out and I'm about to enjoy a well earned drink with my old pal Steve Tilzey.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Feb 6, 2013)

Also had a sit-down meet with Matthew Collins during the campaign to intimidate FP
into not publishing BTF. So it's reasonable to assume he's not entirely alone in his endeavours on here. The bad-jacketing by Lowles of AFA/DAM organiser Malcolm in Doncaster (claimed he was a fascist), the demonisation of Larry O'Hara, the groundless suspension of Class War, the bespattering of leading anti-fascists on here, is needless to say, all part of the same dance.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 6, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> Whatever Nick Lowles did to earn your displeasure as far as I know he never murdered, tortured or beat people up gratuitously sold drugs or ran protection rackets. Answer that wanker.


I am staying off of this thread to give a bit more room to the current disgraceful allegations of a campaign of intimidation towards the family of Dave Hann. This is rather more urgent compared to my gripes of 28 years ago.


----------



## bignose1 (Feb 6, 2013)

Yeah I had a drink with an old friend. And ?

ps In a personal capacity not as a Unison organiser where I had been to meetings where he spoke. Is that ok you clowns.


----------



## bignose1 (Feb 6, 2013)

Joe Reilly said:


> Also had a sit-down meet with Matthew Collins during the campaign to intimidate FP
> into not publishing BTF. So it's reasonable to assume he's not entirely alone in his endeavours on here. The bad-jacketing by Lowles of AFA/DAM organiser Malcolm in Doncaster (claimed he was a fascist), the demonisation of Larry O'Hara, the groundless suspension of Class War, the bespattering of leading anti-fascists on here, is needless to say, all part of the same dance.


Thats a lie O'Shea...back this up. This is garbage. No such meeting took place no such discussion ocurred. You really dont have a clue and are introducing the Searchlight dynamic to create more mischief. Deary me.


----------



## bignose1 (Feb 6, 2013)

framed said:


> Cheers.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
It was possible to look at the Red Action forum or large ares of it until quite recently in fact the fash used to occasionally screen grab it from time to time. Dave was threatened with getting stabbed by a poster. Fact. And I had very personal and private details posted on there which my family were able to see and info was given which could have assisted the fash as to my workplace putting me potentially at risk from attack. It was a pretty much a one way thing as most replies were modded out.

There has been several incidences where RA have turned violently on people. Denis Clifford attacking PW at an Irish meeting springs to mind. So why should it be unreasonable to think this behaviour with these types of people around should suddenly change.


----------



## framed (Feb 6, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> It was possible to look at the Red Action forum or large ares of it until quite recently infact the fash used to screen grab it from time to time. Dave was threatened to get stabbed by a poster. I had very personal and private details posted on there which my family were able to see and info was given which could have assisted the fash as to my workplace putting me potentially at risk from attack. It was a pretty much one way thing as most replies were modded out.
> 
> There has been several incidences where RA have turned violently on people. Denis Clifford attacking PW at an Irish meeting springs to mind.


 
I honestly can't remember anything about a threat to stab Dave, but if it came from a poster on a thread it could have been anyone, including the fash who posted there. It didn't come from a member of Red Action. I can state with confidence that physical retribution against Dave was never considered by RA. All of the issues that we had with your book were political.

You need to get over some of the personal issues that you have with individuals in RA mate, there's certainly no resolution in sight when you keep on adding more allegations in every post.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 6, 2013)

framed said:


> I honestly can't remember anything about a threat to stab Dave, but if it came from a poster on a thread it could have been anyone, including the fash who posted there. It didn't come from a member of Red Action. I can state with confidence that physical retribution against Dave was never considered by RA. All of the issues that we had with your book were political.
> 
> You need to get over some of the personal issues that you have with individuals in RA mate, there's certainly no resolution in sight when you keep on adding more allegations in every post.


if someone's got a week or so to kill, they could go through the thread and post some sort of executive summary of what everyone's said.


----------



## framed (Feb 6, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> if someone's got a week or so to kill, they could go through the thread and post some sort of executive summary of what everyone's said.


 
Are you volunteering? 

Which thread(s) ?

I'd like to see the RA forum threads that BN1 has referred to.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 6, 2013)

framed said:


> Are you volunteering?


fuck no!  life's too short!


----------



## framed (Feb 6, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> fuck no!  life's too short!


 
Well then... don't look at me! 

Nah, I would be prepared to go through the stuff from all three areas of reference (here, Indymedia and RA) if it served a purpose.

My recollection of the threads on the RA forum is vague now. Access to that, if it can be found, would be useful.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 6, 2013)

framed said:


> Well then... don't look at me!
> 
> Nah, I would be prepared to go through the stuff from all three areas of reference (here, Indymedia and RA) if it served a purpose.
> 
> My recollection of the threads on the RA forum is vague now. Access to that, if it can be found, would be useful.


see if searchlight have a copy


----------



## framed (Feb 6, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> see if searchlight have a copy


----------



## bignose1 (Feb 6, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> if someone's got a week or so to kill, they could go through the thread and post some sort of executive summary of what everyone's said.


Fine do it. But  please redact some of the more sensitive personal references in your summary. Posts which threatened people should have been modded out. They wernt. Also when we were told to relinquish Red Attitude it was menacing with you know who being behind it. I hear what you say Stevie and you are a decent person with issues to take up with what I say. I dont know where all this is going but please accept that I have the right to say what I believe is true from my own perspective and from what other.s have told me. Dave was pretty much run out of town and later subjected to some seriously unpleasant villification.


----------



## past caring (Feb 6, 2013)

As I recall, there were two threads on the RA boards where No Retreat and the subsequent fallout from the book were discussed at length. I read them assiduously at the time and on several occasions later. I never saw any threat to stab DH from anyone and certainly not from any RA member. Even if the original posting was removed, there would doubtless have been outraged references to it in later postings - there weren't.


----------



## bignose1 (Feb 6, 2013)

Joe Reilly said:


> Also had a sit-down meet with Matthew Collins during the campaign to intimidate FP
> into not publishing BTF. So it's reasonable to assume he's not entirely alone in his endeavours on here. The bad-jacketing by Lowles of AFA/DAM organiser Malcolm in Doncaster (claimed he was a fascist), the demonisation of Larry O'Hara, the groundless suspension of Class War, the bespattering of leading anti-fascists on here, is needless to say, all part of the same dance.


 
Evidence. Come on. With stuff like this you do make yourself look a complete clown.


----------



## bignose1 (Feb 6, 2013)

And for your reference this was before the HnH/Searchlight split. Dunce.


----------



## bignose1 (Feb 6, 2013)

past caring said:


> As I recall, there were two threads on the RA boards where No Retreat and the subsequent fallout from the book were discussed at length. I read them assiduously at the time and on several occasions later. I never saw any threat to stab DH from anyone and certainly not from any RA member. Even if the original posting was removed, there would doubtless have been outraged references to it in later postings - there weren't.


It was and I'm thinking whether I may have it printed it out so keep your denials coming......your thoroughness may possibly be proved to be an embarrassing overstatement


----------



## cesare (Feb 6, 2013)

RA archive here by the looks of it: http://www.redactionarchive.org/p/news.html


----------



## framed (Feb 6, 2013)

cesare said:


> RA archive here by the looks of it: http://www.redactionarchive.org/p/news.html


 
Nah mate, that's the Red Action archive site (similar to the anti-fascist archive) set up recently to collate all the back issues of the newspaper and bulletins, plus other related materials. There appears to be no online archive of the old forum, which was deleted from the old redaction.org site.


----------



## cesare (Feb 6, 2013)

framed said:


> Nah mate, that's the Red Action archive site (similar to the anti-fascist archive) set up recently to collate all the back issues of the newspaper and bulletins, plus other related materials. There appears to be no online archive of the old forum, which was deleted from the old redaction.org site.


Ah, OK, cheers


----------



## TopCat (Feb 6, 2013)

past caring said:


> So let's take this step by step.
> 
> Wasn't one of the major issues for RA the fact that one of the authors - Steve Tilzey - was a Searchlight operative? And had been both during his time in AFA and whilst contact with Searchlight had been proscribed? And that he had passed information on AFA activities to Searchlight but had, on Searchlight instructions, either witheld or given duff information to AFA?
> 
> Now, let's assume for the moment those allegations are true (we can discuss whether they actually are true, or are likely to be, in a moment) - are these criticisms which "boil down to who wrote the book...personal stuff, grudges" or are they political?


Quoted for total relevance. This being from page 3 of this very thread.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 6, 2013)

TopCat said:


> It will be good to see in one place a time line of the efforts of some to disrupt the activities of AFA over the years. It seems that some are running scared of being named and shamed! Bring it on...


And so it came to pass..


----------



## Joe Reilly (Feb 6, 2013)

past caring said:


> As I recall, there were two threads on the RA boards where No Retreat and the subsequent fallout from the book were discussed at length. I read them assiduously at the time and on several occasions later. I never saw any threat to stab DH from anyone and certainly not from any RA member. Even if the original posting was removed, there would doubtless have been outraged references to it in later postings - there weren't.


 
There was no threat to stab from a RA member of anyone else. For obvious reasons the forum was, and had to be, very tightly moderated. Anything like that would not have got anywhere near being allowed.

Once again, as with so many other allegations he has been called on recently, it is freshly minted, after more than two years at bat.

Didn't even make it on the hatefest that was the BTF thread on Indymedia.

In any event making an idle threat in public, or otherwise, was never the RA way.

Totally made up.

The very fact that it was increasingly used as a prop, and he was confidently inviting people to 'check if for themselves' was done in the knowledge that a) most wouldn't and b) even if they did persist he couldn't be disproved as it isn't available.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Feb 6, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> Evidence. Come on. With stuff like this you do make yourself look a complete clown.


 
So are you denying any contact with Collins at all?


----------



## Joe Reilly (Feb 6, 2013)

BTW had to laugh at the remark about 'Red Action's persistent revisionist lies' - never mind the 'lies' what accepted historical truth is it that we are meant to be 'revising'?


----------



## Joe Reilly (Feb 7, 2013)




----------



## bignose1 (Feb 7, 2013)

Joe Reilly said:


> So are you denying any contact with Collins at all?


IVE SEEN HIM ON A NUMBER OF OCCASIONS AT VARIOUS MEETINGS,RALLYS, GALAS MAINLY PRIOR TO THE SPLIT BUT SOME SUBSEQUENTLY TO THEM GOING ALONE. I STILL SEE GA FROM S/L FROM TIME TO TIME BUT HAVE NEVER ONCE SPOKE ABOUT YOU, RA,BTF,NR,DH,LP OR ANYTHING CONNECTED TO ANY OF THE POINTS BEING RAISED HERE. I MAY HAVE SPOKEN ABOUT THE EDL,NF,BNP WHICH AFTER ALL IS WHY I WENT TO THE MEETINGS. ARNT I CLEVER FOR DOING THAT. SO WHERE DID YOU GET YOUR INFO SHERLOCK. YOU ARE A COMPLETE FANTASIST MAKING UNSUBSTANTIATED CLAIMS YET AGAIN.


----------



## bignose1 (Feb 7, 2013)

Joe Reilly said:


> There was no threat to stab from a RA member of anyone else. For obvious reasons the forum was, and had to be, very tightly moderated. Anything like that would not have got anywhere near being allowed.
> 
> Once again, as with so many other allegations he has been called on recently, it is freshly minted, after more than two years at bat.
> 
> ...


 
 Im afraid it was Gary contained in a post....maybe it slipped through....'wasnt the RA way. Maybe not in public hey I get your meaning.'

And if you moderated it so well then I must blame you for allowing all the personall shite. No doubt you had some wanks with that.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 7, 2013)

Now you blame Joe for the moderation of the RA site. Previously it was my fault. Who next? Santa? Goblins?


----------



## bignose1 (Feb 7, 2013)

TopCat said:


> Quoted for total relevance. This being from page 3 of this very thread.


 
Nothing new there Sherlock.But this conspiraloon stuff is now becoming amusing as you try to squeeze square pegs into round holes. The stealing info was another made up false charge by Denis Clifford. A laughable I mean really laughable attempted stitch up. Id wager that in all the time I was with Searchlight I think O'Shea met with Gerry Gable on more occasions. And were in bed together during the so called proscriptive period you mention.


----------



## bignose1 (Feb 7, 2013)

TopCat said:


> Now you blame Joe for the moderation of the RA site. Previously it was my fault. Who next? Santa? Goblins?


A collective responsibility was meant. Dont try and be clever on that one.


----------



## bignose1 (Feb 7, 2013)

Anyway I'm off to Spain later today to spend some of my redundancy money and research my new book.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 7, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> Anyway I'm off to Spain later today to spend some of my redundancy money and research my new book.


Are you writing a sequel to Fantasy Island?


----------



## bignose1 (Feb 7, 2013)

TopCat said:


> Are you writing a sequel to Fantasy Island?


 
It will be fictional ( yes like my last one of course...) Anyway got to go.....Ze Plane , Ze Plane


----------



## Joe Reilly (Feb 7, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> SO WHERE DID YOU GET YOUR INFO SHERLOCK.


 
Which is what really bothers you, or perhaps to be more accurate Nick Lowles, isn't it?

Because less than 24 hours after boasting "you hope you'll wear me down...that won't ever happen" it looks like you've being hooked and sent on an unplanned 'holiday'.


----------



## malatesta32 (Feb 7, 2013)

framed said:


> Nah mate, that's the Red Action archive site (similar to the anti-fascist archive) set up recently to collate all the back issues of the newspaper and bulletins, plus other related materials. There appears to be no online archive of the old forum, which was deleted from the old redaction.org site.


 
still worth a look. i spent an entertaining afternoon going thru some of the issues.


----------



## cesare (Feb 7, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> still worth a look. i spent an entertaining afternoon going thru some of the issues.


And an interesting summary of the beef is on the No Retreat bit.


----------



## malatesta32 (Feb 7, 2013)

i hate the beef cesare! can we not move on?


----------



## cesare (Feb 7, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> i hate the beef cesare! can we not move on?


I've got nothing to do with it and don't get involved. But I asked what it was about and no-one answered so now I've found out for myself, and anyone else that doesn't understand what it's about can go and look for themselves too.


----------



## framed (Feb 7, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> i hate the beef cesare! can we not move on?


 
Beef Cesare?

Is that a recipe from the Anarchist Cookbook?


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 7, 2013)

framed said:


> Beef Cesare?
> 
> Is that a recipe from the Anarchist Cookbook?


it's a recipe from the tolling gang


----------



## cesare (Feb 7, 2013)

framed said:


> Beef Cesare?
> 
> Is that a recipe from the Anarchist Cookbook?





Beef's urban slang for row.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 7, 2013)

cesare said:


> Beef's urban slang for row.


and beef cesare, it's an old tolling gang special.


----------



## cesare (Feb 7, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> and beef cesare, it's an old tolling gang special.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 7, 2013)

cesare said:


>


like beef tartare but with added lynch


----------



## cesare (Feb 7, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> like beef tartare but with added lynch


Ah.


----------



## malatesta32 (Feb 7, 2013)

well apparently cesare comes with rice! it would have to be a rich red tomato sauce on black squid ink pasta.


----------



## bignose1 (Feb 8, 2013)

Joe Reilly said:


> Which is what really bothers you, or perhaps to be more accurate Nick Lowles, isn't it?
> 
> Because less than 24 hours after boasting "you hope you'll wear me down...that won't ever happen" it looks like you've being hooked and sent on an unplanned 'holiday'.


 
Oh really O'Reilly....... Your so way out on this stuff I'm embarrassed for you. Unplanned holiday ? Add this to your embarrassment...whats happening next Wednesday night and where.?


----------



## bignose1 (Feb 8, 2013)

cesare said:


> RA archive here by the looks of it: http://www.redactionarchive.org/p/news.html


 
Tizley and Haan.....my oh my the accuracy is breathtaking


----------



## malatesta32 (Feb 8, 2013)

good pix! 

http://spitalfieldslife.com/2013/02/08/fire-attack-at-the-freedom-press/colds-2012-2355/

http://spitalfieldslife.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Colds-2012-2556.jpg


----------



## Joe Reilly (Feb 8, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> Oh really O'Reilly....... Your so way out on this stuff I'm embarrassed for you. Unplanned holiday ? Add this to your embarrassment...whats happening next Wednesday night and where.? View attachment 28742


 
You on the other hand who despite being increasingly caught out in lie after lie on here show no embarassmnent at all. Which is psychologically pretty revealing.

But putting that to oneside, you can now tell us exactly how I 'bullied and threatned Dave Hann' when I had no contact with him in any form for the best part of 20 years.

Over to you. From the start.


----------



## bignose1 (Feb 8, 2013)

Joe Reilly said:


> You on the other hand who despite being increasingly caught out in lie after lie on here show no embarassmnent at all. Which is psychologically pretty revealing.
> 
> But putting that to oneside, you can now tell us exactly how I 'bullied and threatned Dave Hann' when I had no contact with him in any form for the best part of 20 years.
> 
> Over to you. From the start.


 
It was done as you well know remotely and by proxy at yours and others behest. Why you continue with this ridiculous charade will only embarrass you further.

Are you in denial or just carrying on as normal your usual routine of rubbishing people which has typically been your prefered way. The evidence is out there. Now fuck off my unplanned tapas has arrived at my unplanned table.


----------



## LiamO (Feb 8, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> It was done as you well know *remotely*


 
This is ground control to Major Tom... you've really made the grade...

BN catch a grip of yourself. This is not even (ahem) remotely credible.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 8, 2013)

Surely there are better things to do in Spain than get on here? At least the first few days of the holiday?


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 8, 2013)

The39thStep said:


> Surely there are better things to do in Spain than get on here? At least the first few days of the holiday?


you'd have thought so...


----------



## Joe Reilly (Feb 8, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> It was done as you well know remotely and by proxy at yours and others behest...
> 
> The evidence is out there.


 
Who or what was the 'proxy'

And if 'the evidence is out there' - it's 'out there' like the non-existent RA forum thread you were confidently (knowing it didn't exist) pointing people toward a couple of pages back.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 8, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> It was done as you well know remotely and by proxy at yours and others behest. Why you continue with this ridiculous charade will only embarrass you further.
> 
> Are you in denial or just carrying on as normal your usual routine of rubbishing people which has typically been your prefered way. The evidence is out there. Now fuck off my unplanned tapas has arrived at my unplanned table.


----------



## bignose1 (Feb 9, 2013)

LiamO said:


> This is ground control to Major Tom... you've really made the grade...
> 
> BN catch a grip of yourself. This is not even (ahem) remotely credible.


Is the fact that Ive been cunted off by said person for 20 odd years credible.


----------



## bignose1 (Feb 9, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


>






Joe Reilly said:


> Who or what was the 'proxy'
> 
> And if 'the evidence is out there' - it's 'out there' like the non-existent RA forum thread you were confidently (knowing it didn't exist) pointing people toward a couple of pages back.


 
You know it was available to view ( is it called cached ) way after the forum was taken down so dont come this bullshit. For the last time that site was a complete hate fest which DID contain a threat to DH.


----------



## bignose1 (Feb 9, 2013)

The39thStep said:


> Surely there are better things to do in Spain than get on here? At least the first few days of the holiday?


 
Of course there is...........and I never read the news. However 10 mins a day on here, BNP site, HnH, Searchlight, VNN, Shitefront and Redwatch poss a quick 'Percy' site before the suns out or everyones up...thats fine?


----------



## bignose1 (Feb 9, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> Of course there is...........and I never read the news. However 10 mins a day on here, BNP site, HnH, Searchlight, VNN, Shitefront and Redwatch poss a quick 'Percy' site before the suns out or everyones up...thats fine?


 
Ok maybe not the.........................................VNN site!


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 9, 2013)

Ola, buenos dias.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Feb 9, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> Is the fact that Ive been cunted off by said person for 20 odd years credible.


 
So now it's *you *that's been bullied for 20 years is it?


----------



## Joe Reilly (Feb 9, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> You know it was available to view ( is it called cached ) way after the forum was taken down so dont come this bullshit. For the last time that site was a complete hate fest which DID contain a threat to DH.


 
Still waiting for you to explain who or what was the 'proxy?'


To repeat there was no 'threat to stab Dave Hann' on the RA Forum, no more than there was 'a vile and disgusting campaign against the Purbick family'.

You just made them up.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Feb 9, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> Tizley and Haan.....my oh my the accuracy is breathtaking


 
Why not point to the inaccuracy then?


----------



## bignose1 (Feb 9, 2013)

Joe Reilly said:


> So now it's *you *that's been bullied for 20 years is it?


 
Not bullied...thats a laugh.....I mean cunted off.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Feb 9, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> Not bullied...thats a laugh.....I mean cunted off.


 
Who was the 'proxy'?


----------



## Joe Reilly (Feb 9, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> Not bullied...thats a laugh.....


 
So while your working out who or what the 'proxy' was, if indeed as you claim it was Dave but _not_ you that was 'bullied and hounded' 'forced out of Manchester' etc

- why as his very best buddy and chief political ally did you stand back and let it happen?


I am aware the answers are possibly contradictory, but can I draw your attention to your statment of just a couple of days back about the handing over of the Man Utd fanzine:

_"Also when we were told to relinquish Red Attitude it was menacing with you know who being behind it._"[bignose1] no 4172

You are clearly implying your were intimidated into relinquishing the AFA fanzine to - AFA.

Now it does sound like you were saying you were 'bullied'.

So were you or weren't you?

Which is it?


----------



## bignose1 (Feb 9, 2013)

Joe Reilly said:


> So while your working out who or what the 'proxy' was, if indeed as you claim it was Dave but _not_ you that was 'bullied and hounded' 'forced out of Manchester' etc
> 
> - why as his very best buddy and chief political ally did you stand back and let it happen?
> 
> ...


 
Not much choice.....think about it....but It wouldnt be an issue of me going anywhere...and thats not bravado. It just wouldnt happen. Dave was threatened. And here we go as I said hiding behind gangsters once again. You are pathetic. Moralistically defunct.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Feb 9, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> Not much choice.....think about it....but It wouldnt be an issue of me going anywhere...and thats not bravado. It just wouldnt happen. Dave was threatened. And here we go as I said hiding behind gangsters once again. You are pathetic. Moralistically defunct.


 
Can we take it then, from that non-denial denial. that there was no menacing behind request to hand over fanzine and we can duly add it the list of your invented campaigns - so far:
1.the non existent viscious campaign against the Purbick family - no evidence provided
2.the threat (s) to stab Dave Hann on the RA forum - no evidence provided
3.the 'hounding and threatning' of Dave Hann by me - no evidence provided
4. AFA demanding with menaces the return of the AFA fanzine Red Attitude to AFA - never happened

*All fabrications made up -by you Steve. On here. *

Now as the explanation for the rather bizarre invention of my 'bullying Dave by proxy' or even worse by 'remote' (tv?) is not forthcoming despite

you being asked on a number of occassions, would you like to take the opportunity, (given it is something you have oft repeated) to provide an

example or two, (you know the drill) of when I ever 'hid behind gangsters'?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 13, 2013)

The39thStep said:


> I bumped into her and two other old folk giving out some racist and anti semitic leaflets outside Wembley Town Hall in the early 1980s. There was a rumour when she died that she left some of her money to Peter Marriner.


 
£60,000 according to 'Target' #37, 2008(?)



http://archive.org/details/TargetIssue37


----------



## malatesta32 (Feb 13, 2013)

peter marriner, albert marriner, jason marinner? are they all one happy nazi family?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 13, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> peter marriner, albert marriner, jason marinner? are they all one happy nazi family?


Marriners of the high sleaze


----------



## malatesta32 (Feb 13, 2013)

good one!


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 13, 2013)

It's okay, I'm a professional.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Feb 14, 2013)

Joe Reilly said:


> Can we take it then, from that non-denial denial. that there was no menacing behind request to hand over fanzine and we can duly add it the list of your invented campaigns - so far:
> 1.the non existent viscious campaign against the Purbick family - no evidence provided
> 2.the threat (s) to stab Dave Hann on the RA forum - no evidence provided
> 3.the 'hounding and threatning' of Dave Hann by me - no evidence provided
> ...


 
I think it safe now to assume that the 'gangster' allegation is not going to be substantiated. And as often happens it is the attempted cover-up that over time proves the un-doing of the conspirators.

For behind all the little lies; the character assasinations etc there lies a bigger lie. And what is the bigger lie?

Well, we don't have to travel far to find it. Click on _Anti-Fascist Action_ and it brings you to Wikipedia.

Here we are told: 'Red Action campaigned over a long period after 1995 within the AFA Network for AFA as an organisation to adopt the "Filling the Vacuum" strategy. However, given that AFA contained a number of political groups, with differing political programmes, this contributed to the breakup of much of the AFA network, with much internal recrimination."

Now this counter factual argument may be all too familiar to people on here (Louise Purbick, Ayatollah to name put two) but it is still fairly startling to see it proclaimed so brazenly elsewhere. It is also worth noting the sleight of hand whereby it is not the 'no more marches, meetings, punch-ups' statement of the BNP in 1994, which dosen't rate a mention incidentally, that creates problems for AFA, but the 'FTV' _analysis_ that followed it 12 months later.

You might also have thought that for the blame to be laid at the door of 'FtV' (apart from providing a link to it - not a hope) the accepted the minimum requirement would be to name the other groups involved and possibly take note of their responses.

But no.

Outside of Red Action none are mentioned much less the nature of their criticisms. And why is that do you suppose?

Simple.

With the collapse of the DAM in the mid-1990's no _'other groups with different political programmes'_ existed within the AFA network, which rather voids the 'united front'
argument.
So much then for the notion that the exchanges in this thread can be dismissed as a 'personal spat'. What we are seeing here is not so much a re-writing of history but the invention of an entirely seperate narrative.


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## Joe Reilly (Feb 16, 2013)

Joe Reilly said:


> I think it safe now to assume that the 'gangster' allegation is not going to be substantiated. And as often happens it is the attempted cover-up that over time proves the un-doing of the conspirators.
> 
> For behind all the little lies; the character assasinations etc there lies a bigger lie. And what is the bigger lie?
> 
> ...


 

Another cracker from Wikipedia:

 "Critics of the IWCA say it has abandoned socialist politics but only replaced it with a confused "localist working class self-help electoral politics , exemplified by the IWCA slogan " working class power in working class areas". Critics from the Left say this is an unachievable illusion in a capitalist society and an opportunist political approach which tacks to the wind of reactionery white working class attitudes to ethnic minorities, crime, and tolerant multiculturalism , for local electoral advantage. Indeed many critics on the Left would deny that the IWCA sits politically on the Left at all ..." etc

Not I grant you the amusing 'full on Strasserite' denunciation of the IWCA, coined by the late an unlamented bignose1, though some might think it more than a little short in the evidence department for the likes of Wikipedia.


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## DotCommunist (Feb 16, 2013)

in fairness, most political entries concerning current parties are riddled with inaccuracy and edit wars


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## Joe Reilly (Feb 16, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> in fairness, most political entries concerning current parties are riddled with inaccuracy and edit wars


 
I just checked the ANL. SWP, and SP and in all of those critics are generally identified and what allegations there are tend to be supported by some form of evidence whether from the group in question or from the groups opponents, which is what i understood to be the accepted standard.


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## malatesta32 (Feb 16, 2013)

joe, what's the 'official version' of AFA being wound down/moving on? was there ever a statement? i dont recall anything in the last FT either. any links etc?


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## The39thStep (Feb 16, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> joe, what's the 'official version' of AFA being wound down/moving on? was there ever a statement? i dont recall anything in the last FT either. any links etc?


 
Mal I thought that you had been active around anti fascism or was that post AFA?


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## DotCommunist (Feb 16, 2013)

Joe Reilly said:


> I just checked the ANL. SWP, and SP and in all of those critics are generally identified and what allegations there are tend to be supported by some form of evidence whether from the group in question or from the groups opponents, which is what i understood to be the accepted standard.


 

well you are of course free to go and correct wikipedo on these matters, referencing correct info from BtF and your own experience and other sources etc. Be doing them a favour.


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## malatesta32 (Feb 16, 2013)

i think thats a good idea DC. and also an 'official' clarification on how AFA ended for the record and to prevent any confusion or disinformation floating abaht!


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## Joe Reilly (Feb 16, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> well you are of course free to go and correct wikipedo on these matters, referencing correct info from BtF and your own experience and other sources etc. Be doing them a favour.


 
Asked what he thought of British democracy Gandhi replied that - 'It's a very good idea'.​​In other words efforts have been made in that regard, but the reality is that permanent change is nigh on impossible. A reference from BTF was removed in the AFA thread, while the claim that Nicky Crane was 'an alleged fascist' proved impossible to refine - though it seems to have been taken down now. Corrections to the IWCA section were in short order _un-corrected_.​ 
In any event the question I posed was whether Wikepedia assumed any responsibility itself for the utter shite it allows to be posted on its own board?


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## Spanky Longhorn (Feb 16, 2013)

There are some subjects in which Wikipedia is useful - party politics is not one of them however


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## DotCommunist (Feb 16, 2013)

Joe Reilly said:


> Asked what he thought of British democracy Gandhi replied that - 'It's a very good idea'.​​In other words efforts have been made in that regard, but the reality is that permanent change is nigh on impossible. A reference from BTF was removed in the AFA thread, while the claim that Nicky Crane was 'an alleged fascist' proved impossible to refine - though it seems to have been taken down now. Corrections to the IWCA section were in short order _un-corrected_.​
> In any event the question I posed was whether Wikepedia assumed any responsibility itself for the utter shite it allows to be posted on its own board?


 
I don't believe it does- its a crowd sourced compendium (wanky phrase I know) and the final arbiters of edit wars seem to be those who have the time to spend engaging in that war of editing. As spanky says, its shit for party politics for just that reason. Even on other subjects it functions best as a link list, a secondary source with links to original references.

Is BtF included in the 'further reading' section of the wikipedia entry- it might be worth getting it in there if not. Thus anyone who cares to do more than just argue on the internets would have recourse to the text.


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## DaveCinzano (Feb 17, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> Is BtF included in the 'further reading' section of the wikipedia entry- it might be worth getting it in there if not. Thus anyone who cares to do more than just argue on the internets would have recourse to the text.


 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Fascist_Action

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Anti-Fascist_Action&action=history

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Anti-Fascist_Action


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## framed (Feb 17, 2013)

DaveCinzano said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Anti-Fascist_Action


 

The ubiquitous 'Bob From Brockley' is all over that last page presenting himself as an expert on all things AFA & IWCA. I suspect he's the culprit for much of the falsehoods and revisionism. In fact, his name is on most of them.


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## DaveCinzano (Feb 17, 2013)

framed said:


> The ubiquitous 'Bob From Brockley' is all over that last page presenting himself as an expert on all things AFA & IWCA. I suspect he's the culprit for much of the falsehoods and revisionism. In fact, his name is on most of them.


Spylab seems to have attracted a fan:



> −
> This person, most probably, suffers from some kind of mental disorder. The facts are:
> −
> * made more than 12 000 edits within less than year and half
> ...


 
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Spylab&diff=439322379&oldid=427479633


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## Red Storm (Feb 17, 2013)

There is a short thread on the Bob from Brockley blog on AFA


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## framed (Feb 18, 2013)

Red Storm said:


> There is a short thread on the Bob from Brockley blog on AFA


 
Yeah, it's shit.


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## audiotech (Feb 18, 2013)

Red Storm said:


> There is a short thread on the Bob from Brockley blog on AFA


 
I found that an interesting thread, particularly the comments section. An obituary to, Geoff Robinson, in _The Guardian_ included:

I didn't know Geoff had died in 2006, age 58.
As stated previously, I worked with Geoff in the late 70's, with him letting me kip down at his house in Bradford. This is sad to hear.

*Taking Sides*
*The Story of the Workers Aid Convoys*
*Geoff Robinson, Bob Myres, John Davies (editors)*

*Kosova The Dirty War*
(Geoff, sat in the foreground.)


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## Joe Reilly (Feb 18, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> i think thats a good idea DC. and also an 'official' clarification on how AFA ended for the record and to prevent any confusion or disinformation floating abaht!


 
I would have thought the chronology was pretty well covered in BTF?

The pivot was of course the 'no more marches, meetings punch ups ' decalaration by Tony Lecomber in March 1994. With the NF,B&H and C18 having to all intents and purposes well and truly mullered in the preceding years the white flag from the BNP indicated we were entering a new era.
From that very moment the life blood began to drain out of physical force anti-fascism. There were still major clashes in 1996 with C18 in Holborn and in January 1997 a large mobilisation in pursuit of the NF in Islington, and a clash at count in Glasgow in the same year, but in truth it was more than a little after the Lord Mayor's show.

That nearly two decades on this key moment is still a matter of faux controversy/or ignored is a tribute to the the unflagging pursuit of falsehood and make believe by groups with whose interests lie in establishing a very different narrative that translates victory on the streets into defeat and condemns the individuals who did more than most to deliver the victory into 'cowards who betrayed the anti-fascist movement'.

Far from fleeing the struggle as myth has it, RA were the last ones left, responsible from producing FT and sometime daily updates of the AFA site, until finally turning off the lights in 2001, long after everyone else had left.


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## Joe Reilly (Feb 18, 2013)

framed said:


> Yeah, it's shit.


 
Bob, I stand behind everything I said about AFA. Had I known you had posted this, I would have replied earlier.
Basically, the background was a political disagreement. The Bradford AFA group, which was hosting the conference, proposed that we change the name from Anti Fascist Action to Anti Racist Anti Fascist Action. This was a highly contested position. Although there were some serious political arguments raised, 1.*the position of Red Action was that anti-racism was merely a middle-class affectation, that racism was not an issue for the working class, and that we should not seek to exclude working class whites with dubious racial views from the anti fascist struggle.* This argument did not go down well with the local Asian Youth, who had confronted elderly male conservatives in the Asian community, in order to take part in, and at times to lead, the struggle against racism in the city. *Eventually, tempers got so heated that some AYM activists were threatened with physical violence from some Red Action members, and the stewards had to be called back.*

The upshot was that the proposal was not agreed. We called for a disciplinary inquiry into the actions of Red Action, the AFA leadership refused. So soon after the conference, the Bradford AFA group, together with the Islington and Manchester groups, resigned from AFA altogether. 

*This is a matter of historical record.* You may disagree with my political position at the time, or now; you may question my interpretation of the events; but you cannot question what actually occurred, as will be confirmed by others who were at the conference.

1. If memory serves RA did not say anything much at all. Instead we along with the rest of the audience were subject to long lectures about the importance of finding our 'inner racism'. In fact it was the NMP who has stood with Searchlight the previous year in the suspension of CW who were most vocal in opposition.

2. Love this bit in particular. The stewards had to be 'called back' from as he previously decribed the 'town centre'. What were stewards doing in the town centre in the first place? What if had been fascists that attacked what gone would they have been 'off-site'? In any event this was not a public meeting but and internal conference so even if they had found out about it, the chances of the fash attacking a 200 -300 strong AFA conference, even AFA mark 1, were  slight to non - existent. He somehow forgets to mention how the 'attack on the AYM' concluded. Who won?

3. Oh is it, where is this _history_ recorded?


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## malatesta32 (Feb 18, 2013)

Joe Reilly said:


> I would have thought the chronology was pretty well covered in BTF?
> 
> The pivot was of course the 'no more marches, meetings punch ups ' decalaration by Tony Lecomber in March 1994. With the NF,B&H and C18 having to all intents and purposes well and truly mullered in the preceding years the white flag from the BNP indicated we were entering a new era.
> From that very moment the life blood began to drain out of physical force anti-fascism. There were still major clashes in 1996 with C18 in Holborn and in January 1997 a large mobilisation in pursuit of the NF in Islington, and a clash at count in Glasgow in the same year, but in truth it was more than a little after the Lord Mayor's show.
> ...


 
thanks for the clarification. i am stringing the post 'no marches' events together some of which are not documented (and there is a bit of gap between late 90s and 2009 in testaments for the usual obvious reasons). i certainly dont believe AFA or RA 'fled' anything but i thought there may be a statement or something as both RA and AFA's documentation was always very good (ive just read all of it!). it is pretty obvious that even if FT or AFA was no longer 'official' that militant antifascists were still active as and when necessary in their own areas. and history is never as convenient as 'on this day it all stopped.' for as we know too well, the fash never really go away as we have seen in the last couple of years.


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## framed (Feb 18, 2013)

His contentions about Steve Hedley were enough for me. Attacks him for being anti-semetic, which is a lie, then questions whether he ever had any involvement in AFA at all, only to retract it later in the small print below his main article.

I don't remember Bob from Brockley being in the Enkel Arms when it came on top, but Hedley was there.


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## Joe Reilly (Feb 18, 2013)

framed said:


> I don't remember Bob from Brockley being in the Enkel Arms when it came on top...


 


malatesta32 said:


> it is pretty obvious that even if FT or AFA was no longer 'official' that militant antifascists were still active as and when necessary in their own areas. and history is never as convenient as 'on this day it all stopped.' for as we know too well, the fash never really go away as we have seen in the last couple of years.


 
The point is that the main thrust of the far-right offensive, attacking marches, meetings and so forth did stop in the mid-1990's and has never, despite the wishful thinking of some, ever returned to the anything even fractionally near the same level since. That is an undeniable fact. Strategically the far-right abandoned the fight for the streets, the BNP in turn to electoral politics, the NF,B&h, and C18 because they were whipped.

As most now seem to accept the EDL are an entirely different matter.

And whereas they might be representative of an anti-Islamist/anti-Muslim sentiment they are not a genuine fascist party, in the sense that fascism is understood. In fact they were not really a 'party' at all: concieved and funded not by the membership, but shady string-pullers. 

Not only that but while the bussed in/bought and paid for turnouts were impressive, breaking the odd kebab window was about the size of their ambition strategically.

'The biggest street threat since the NF in the 1970's' according to Steve Lowles. How silly does that look now?


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## connollyist (Feb 19, 2013)

framed said:


> His contentions about Steve Hedley were enough for me. Attacks him for being anti-semetic, which is a lie, then questions whether he ever had any involvement in AFA at all, only to retract it later in the small print below his main article.
> 
> I don't remember Bob from Brockley being in the Enkel Arms when it came on top, but Hedley was there.


 
I've avoided posting on this thread too much, because obviously the contents of the book were before my time. But when some cunt starts to insult your comrades I think your at least entitled to unleash your opion? Who the fuck is this Bob from Brockley?! Is it possible he was never nearer enough to the front of anything to witness someone like Steve getting stuck in? It says everything that a respected activist, known for his memory for faces (Framed) can't seem to place Bob?

I have done very little compared to some of the posters on here and what I have done maybe considered a waste of time by some of you... but I have never, nor would I ever exaggerate my 'credentials' or use a blog to slag someone such as Hedley? I am not Steve's closet or longest standing comrade but I have worked with him within the union and know him outside of that. I may not agree with his every view or his every decision. I may not agree or understand why Steve has worked with certain people of late, but he has done a lot of good work for my union and he has a lot to say (when the quiet man does speak) that is worth hearing.

Bob on the other hand seems to pride himself on spreading shite from his keyboard.


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## malatesta32 (Feb 19, 2013)

according to bob : Malatesta's Blog: Enjoyably scurrilous tabloid style blog exposing the EDL


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## steeplejack (Feb 19, 2013)

I haven't had the opportunity of congratulating you on your blog, but it is terrific- very very funny and worthwhile. Strikes exactly the right tone and also very informative. Keep up the good work (though the current state of the EDL suggests that there may not be all that much more work to do as far as they are concerned).

I will be interested to have a look at your book, also, when it is finished. Good to see JR still fighting the good fight on here, as well.


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## framed (Feb 19, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> according to bob : Malatesta's Blog: Enjoyably scurrilous tabloid style blog exposing the EDL


 
He's got you down to a T then Mal...


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## malatesta32 (Feb 19, 2013)

im the garry bushell of antifascism! and thanks steeplejack, that means a lot. cheers !


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## DotCommunist (Feb 19, 2013)

like a single issue version of the morning star with added scots vernacular


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## DaveCinzano (Feb 19, 2013)

Broonshirts be buggered


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## ayatollah (Feb 19, 2013)

Joe Reilly said:


> I would have thought the chronology was pretty well covered in BTF?
> 
> The pivot was of course the 'no more marches, meetings punch ups ' decalaration by Tony Lecomber in March 1994. With the NF,B&H and C18 having to all intents and purposes well and truly mullered in the preceding years the white flag from the BNP indicated we were entering a new era.
> From that very moment the life blood began to drain out of physical force anti-fascism. There were still major clashes in 1996 with C18 in Holborn and in January 1997 a large mobilisation in pursuit of the NF in Islington, and a clash at count in Glasgow in the same year, but in truth it was more than a little after the Lord Mayor's show.
> ...


 
Dearie me Joe. There is always a danger in thinking ones own personal "take" on history is the only possible one. Also a great danger in thinking that a book one specifically produced to put forward this particular "take" is therefore  an unimpeachable source of "fact".  I assume Malatesta  has been trying to assess and balance up the widely differing interpretations of what happened during the last few years of AFA's life, for his book. It aint going to be easy to reach a definitive assessment - because other writers in other books simply disagree with you, based on their own personal experience. Your defence of RA's behaviour towards  AFA in its last years is essentially that "victory could be declared over (BNP) street fascism by 1994/1995", AND that by then there was no AFA "United Front" , because only RA was left. Therefore RA was justified in working to channel the previously single issue united front AFA into the completely different IWCA  multi-issue political party project.

Sadly for your claims that aint how others saw it. Obvously you dismiss Dave Hann's take on the acrimonious break up period in No Retreat. though it seems to me a well balanced and believable account (pages 226 to 271), AND he even specifically buys into much of the "Filling the vacuum" strategy. He along with a lot of other RA -aligned, and most importantly anarchist-aligned members across the AFA network did not think that the move into electoralism by the BNP meant that the threat of street fascism from other grouplets had gone away such as to justify winding up the AFA network. As Hann  says ( p.267)  "AFA groups were for the first time being asked to accept  a political programme based on the political philosophy of one particular organisation within it (AFA) .. I feared that .. would lead to splits and the eventual breakup, or neutering , of AFA..."

OK, let's move to the excellent new oral history book produced  by LP from Hann's interviews of a stream of anti fascist activists in "Physical Resistance". The recollections of anarchist members of AFA in its final breakup years could not be more different from the BtF account, Anarchist anti-fascist militants likle John Severn and Ciaran Lynch recount the disruptive impact on the AFA Network's  work of RA's determination to call a final end to  anti fascist activity in favour of the very particular, non-socialist  politics of the IWCA. It is quite clear from their accounts (can't give you the precise page numbers I'm afraid , as its on my Kindle) that there were still loads of non-RA, specifically anarchist activists working in AFA at that time - keen to carry on anti-fascist work against THE STILL CONTINUING sporadic street fascism outbreaks from the fascist grouplets still active on the BNP's Right. If there was no street fascist activity left once RA declared "final victory" and dissolved inself into (non-socialist) localist electoral politics, the many accounts of battles with fascist grouplets all over the UK , in the years following AFA's wind up are hard to account for. In fact of course the collapse/wind up of AFA was followed by the now mainly anarchist direct action anti fascist activists having to set up NEW anti fascist organisations in the years following AFA - specifically "No Platform" and then "Antifa". As Ciaran Lynch describes " We existed as a group called No Platform for several years and though largely anarchist based we worked with Socialist Party members on a regular basis. the groups or areas involved were from London, Leeds, Essex, Brighton, Nottingham, Bristol,and Bradford... "  And so it goes on, proof positive that whereas the ex-RA members might have declared the anti-fascist street battle definitively won by 1995 - in fact this battle NEVER  goeswaway for  long. Nowadays Joe and co always simply write off any re-emergeance of street fascism as laughable or irrelevant. Real life however has now fully disproved this key element of their "filling the vacuum" prognosis. It has been left to a  variety of reformist united front campaigns(HnH, UAR) and physical force anti fascism inside and around and beyond these , mainly by young anarchists, in the years after "victory was declared" , to counter the serious threat tht these periodic upsurges of street fascism has posed to the ethnic minority communities in which they carry out the provocations. Nowadays Joe and co have nothing to contribute to this important anti-fascist work.

Joe has attacked other versions of the history of the break-up of AFA - as essentially simply lies. I think any independent person looking at the  various accounts, and at the complete failure of the IWCA in the years since to participate in any united front anti fascist work, will view with considrable suspicion the veracity of the account   put out by Joe and co on that particular period of anti fascist history.


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## malatesta32 (Feb 19, 2013)

i am going to have to write it 'by committee' i think as it is certainly a sticky wicket! (that's cricket talk for you soccer hooligans).


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## malatesta32 (Feb 19, 2013)

actually, does anyone else wanna write it?


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## framed (Feb 19, 2013)

ayatollah said:


> Dearie me Joe. There is always a danger in thinking ones own personal "take" on history is the only possible one. Also a great danger in thinking that a book one specifically produced to put forward this particular "take" is therefore an unimpeachable source of "fact". I assume Malatesta has been trying to assess and balance up the widely differing interpretations of what happened during the last few years of AFA's life, for his book. It aint going to be easy to reach a definitive assessment - because other writers in other books simply disagree with you, based on their own personal experience. Your defence of RA's behaviour towards AFA in its last years is essentially that "victory could be declared over (BNP) street fascism by 1994/1995", AND that by then there was no AFA "United Front" , because only RA was left. Therefore RA was justified in working to channel the previously single issue united front AFA into the completely different IWCA multi-issue political party project.
> 
> Sadly for your claims that aint how others saw it. Obvously you dismiss Dave Hann's take on the acrimonious break up period in No Retreat. though it seems to me a well balanced and believable account (pages 226 to 271), AND he even specifically buys into much of the "Filling the vacuum" strategy. He along with a lot of other RA -aligned, and most importantly anarchist-aligned members across the AFA network did not think that the move into electoralism by the BNP meant that the threat of street fascism from other grouplets had gone away such as to justify winding up the AFA network. As Hann says ( p.267) "AFA groups were for the first time being asked to accept a political programme based on the political philosophy of one particular organisation within it (AFA) .. I feared that .. would lead to splits and the eventual breakup, or neutering , of AFA..."
> 
> ...


 
The opinions that matter most are those who were around AFA during the period that Joe describes. You weren't, but you seem determined to put your own spin on a period of AFA activity that you played no part in. If you took any real notice of what others here post, you would note that I say nothing on those periods of AFA history when I was not active and played no part in anti-fascist organisations, I let those who were active do the talking. (i.e pre-1989... it was around then that a group of us in Scotland became active 'freelancers' against the fash and about a year later joined up with RA and AFA)

You, on the other hand, will continue to talk shite even though you were no longer involved in AFA and have absolutely no insight into the period that you opine about. Try sticking to your own period of activity, at least you have something of value to offer there.

Yet another who quotes John Severn as a credible, believable source. This is the man whose embarrassing testimony in PR includes the revelation that his contribution to the Battle of Waterloo was to be nicked - in advance of any clashes with the fash - for possession of cannabis. How fcuking stupid is it to be carrying drugs on your person on a major AFA mobilisation? No really, how fcuking stupid is that???

Independent my arse!


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## Mrs Magpie (Feb 19, 2013)

Joe Reilly said:


> Asked what he thought of British democracy Gandhi replied that - 'It's a very good idea'.


I thought it was Western civilisation, not British democracy. I think you might have misquoted Gandhi's reply too....


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## tony.c (Feb 19, 2013)

Yes when asked by a reporter 'What do you think of Western civilisation?' Gandhi replied 'I think it would be a good idea'.


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## malatesta32 (Feb 19, 2013)

DaveCinzano said:


> Broonshirts be buggered


 
jings! i cant believe i didnt do the broon shirts already.


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## Joe Reilly (Feb 20, 2013)

ayatollah said:


> Dearie me Joe. There is always a danger in thinking ones own personal "take" on history is the only possible one.
> 
> *It's hardly a 'take' if you contribute to the writing the history of an organisation you helped found, along with the other founder members.* *Or are we all in fact, 'generals of the arm-chair variety', which was the view expressed by one of Louise Purbicks little helpers at a public meeting in Belfast? According to this clown it was actually Dave 'Maximus' Hann who did all the real fighting while we just held his coat. Deareg was there. Don't know what he made of it. But she didn't bat an eyelid. Just the kind of integrity cherished in academia no doubt. *
> 
> ...


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## LiamO (Feb 20, 2013)

Frankly, Ayatollah, your post is very disappointing and I have no idea really why you have succumbed to such base bitchiness tbh.

You seem to veer from quite insightful comment on occasion to agenda(and ego) driven bile on others. You have better than this, surely? Floundering about the place desperately seeking something to 'prove' what you _want_ to be the 'truth' - and studiously ignoring everything that contradicts it. Not exactly empirical socialist inquiry is it?

A few pages ago you were heartily endorsing Joe Reilly's filleting of Geoff Robinson. Nothing clouding JR's judgement then, was there? Or is it that when his views and recollections are in accordance with your own experience they are impeccable - but when they diverge from your blinkered political narrative (over events of which you have _no_ first-hand experience) they suddenly become suspect?


I for one welcome free and open discussion around this or any other AFA-related issue, but when your starting point is just wishful projection....


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## LiamO (Feb 20, 2013)

And by the way... your old friend and comrade Demu was fairly central in _all_ of these events.

Are you suggesting he _too_ is being economical with the actualité? Or is that just one more pesky fact to be ignored?


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## bignose1 (Feb 20, 2013)

Whoooooshhhhh.....dare offer any alternative 'critique' and be lablled a liar a pathological one at that.And to be placed in some sort of conspiratorial camp...again the motto of desperation. You were wrong about Searchlight /NR and you are clutching at straws again. All you can achieve by your continued demonisation of peole who offer up a different perspective is ridicule. The desperation seeps through every post. The late and unlamented Tilzey. A pathetic swipe and Framed...I think its weak to say you cant have an informed view of a subject just because you wernt there..this is history...that sort of thing happens.

And to add to the John Severn thing which I agree with you on. I think you should be aware of a pal of yours mentioned previously who was also guilty of such lapses to such an extent that when a close comrade of his was arrested the first thing was to get rid of his stash incase a connection could be proven. The paranoia was alrewady setting in. And big style soon after. I might come across as a bit of a cunt saying this but for me it came across as dont let a demo get in the way of a good weed.


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## LiamO (Feb 20, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> And to add to the John Severn thing which I agree with you on. I think you should be aware of a pal of yours mentioned previously who was also guilty of such lapses to such an extent that when a close comrade of his was arrested the first thing was to get rid of his stash incase a connection could be proven. The paranoia was alrewady setting in. And big style soon after. I might come across as a bit of a cunt saying this but for me it came across as dont let a demo get in the way of a good weed.


 
Yes. You do 'come across as a bit of a cunt for saying this'. 

Surely on hearing that a 'close comrade' had been arrested - and fearing a home visit from plod was imminent - it would be criminally stupid _not_ to 'get rid of his stash'.

Are you really attempting to equate having a bit of spliff round your house with the errant stupidity of having it on your person on a major anti-Fascist mobilisation - when you are likely to be stopped and searched _as a matter of course_ at some stage?

It used to really piss me off when some people drew Police attention to us by insisting on their 'right' to indulge themselves in ridiculous posturing - such as attacking (or was it attempting to liberate?) a stuffed animal in a pub;  or refusing to buy a £3 Travelcard that allowed us all to move quickly and freely around Central London without drawing attention to ourselves because 'We don't pay - we're anarchists'. 

This should NOT be read as an attack on Anarchists btw... many anarchist comrades were as annoyed by these type of antics as we were.


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## bignose1 (Feb 20, 2013)

LiamO said:


> Yes. You do 'come across as a bit of a cunt for saying this'.
> 
> Surely on hearing that a 'close comrade' had been arrested - and fearing a home visit from plod was imminent - it would be criminally stupid _not_ to 'get rid of his stash'.
> 
> ...


 
I would have thought if your going out on something where you might get captured ..removal of said items prior might have been more sensible than relying on a messy aftermath situation. And Im saying also that people who indulge in serious use of weed are a liability full stop (and I wouldnt have trusted them not to have had some on them when out and about)...thats if they could be bothered to get up in the first place. AND would any one have criticised a certain big name in M/CR for his more serious 'drug' habit had he been lifted on a similar event...would they fuck. Some people seem to be more immune from that sort of censure. Its selective. Very selective.

I too found pissed people on actions a liabilty...I didnt drink til I was nearly 39. It was a fucking hassle having to prise people out of a session..and then only to be told the opposition have gone.


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## malatesta32 (Feb 20, 2013)

john severn is a nom de guerre and if its who its who i think he is, he was sound as a pound, very motivating for young uns and active round the NW for years, with DAM, anarchos, AFA etc.


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## malatesta32 (Feb 20, 2013)

john 7: 
http://www.landlcollectables.com/catalog/images/Action_Adventure//refTGJohnny7MIBSmall.jpg


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## malatesta32 (Feb 20, 2013)

'This should NOT be read as an attack on Anarchists btw... many anarchist comrades were as annoyed by these type of antics as we were.'


i pardon you!


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## The39thStep (Feb 20, 2013)

Reminds me of Workers Powers contribution to a demo which was one of their comrades and at the time  a poster on here getting arrested for possession .


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## TopCat (Feb 20, 2013)

I saw several AFA still pissed from the night before on actions. It's not just stoners who can be a hassle!! Though it does beggar belief that a person would mobilise on an action and have drugs on their person.


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## The39thStep (Feb 20, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> john severn is a nom de guerre and if its who its who i think he is, he was sound as a pound, very motivating for young uns and active round the NW for years, with DAM, anarchos, AFA etc.


 
What do you think about his arrest for drugs as described in post 4267? Motivating? Sound? Or irresponsible


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## malatesta32 (Feb 20, 2013)

no silly, drugs like football should be illegal. i am sure we have all done daft things but if its who i think most people wd know him as a jolly good all rounder with a good political batting average. to condemn someone for 1 thing is a wee bit excessive!


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## malatesta32 (Feb 20, 2013)

TopCat said:


> I saw several AFA still pissed from the night before on actions. It's not just stoners who can be a hassle!! Though it does beggar belief that a person would mobilise on an action and have drugs on their person.


 
yeah, hands up who has never been out on business with a hangover on an early saturday or sunday morning?


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## Red Storm (Feb 20, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> no silly, drugs like football should be illegal. i am sure we have all done daft things but if its who i think most people wd know him as a jolly good all rounder with a good political batting average. to condemn someone for 1 thing is a wee bit excessive!



I don't think drugs are daft but taking them on an action is bad form


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## manny-p (Feb 20, 2013)

Didn't RA have a no drugs policy for its members?


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## The39thStep (Feb 20, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> yeah, hands up who has never been out on business with a hangover on an early saturday or sunday morning?


Think the difference is how important is what you are doing the next day.


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## Joe Reilly (Feb 20, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> Whoooooshhhhh.....dare offer any alternative 'critique' and be lablled a liar a pathological one at that.And to be placed in some sort of conspiratorial camp...again the motto of desperation. You were wrong about Searchlight /NR and you are clutching at straws again. All you can achieve by your continued demonisation of peole who offer up a different perspective is ridicule. The desperation seeps through every post. The late and unlamented Tilzey. A pathetic swipe and Framed...I think its weak to say you cant have an informed view of a subject just because you wernt there..this is history...that sort of thing happens.


 
Still waiting to hear about us all 'hiding behind gangsters' Steve.


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## Joe Reilly (Feb 20, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> john severn is a nom de guerre and if its who its who i think he is...


 
What? You mean you don't know either?


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## malatesta32 (Feb 20, 2013)

i said i dont know 100% definite. im obviously not going to say why am i?


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## DaveCinzano (Feb 20, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> i said i dont know 100% definite. im obviously not going to say why am i?


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## malatesta32 (Feb 20, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> did they? did they? i wouldn't be so sure on that. see, for example, http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1468-2281.2005.00339.x/abstract


 
hey pickmans! do you give much credibility to this guy? i am just editing the Mosley chapter.


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## malatesta32 (Feb 20, 2013)

its this martin pugh. article was in 2005 so asume its in this: 

http://www.socialistreview.org.uk/article.php?articlenumber=9449


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## DaveCinzano (Feb 20, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> its this martin pugh. article was in 2005 so asume its in this:
> 
> http://www.socialistreview.org.uk/article.php?articlenumber=9449


There's a mistake three words into that review 

PS I believe that the "strange group [which] handed out a leaflet explaining not just why they hadn't joined our march but how they opposed it" was the RCP.


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## bignose1 (Feb 20, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> john 7:
> http://www.landlcollectables.com/catalog/images/Action_Adventure//refTGJohnny7MIBSmall.jpg


 
I had one and a state trooper outfit...we ran a bit of a protection racket round Bucklow Drive. We guarded an allotment one weekend to catch a cabbage thief...only to find out it was me mates dad. He still got his cauli felt.


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## bignose1 (Feb 20, 2013)

Joe Reilly said:


> Still waiting to hear about us all 'hiding behind gangsters' Steve.


 
Dont be pathetic...you know you did. Im still waiting to hear why Denis (50) has to say to me ''should see the size of our crew now''. Ask him go on and I might give up an example or two. Was it that because a certain person was no longer around he now needed a 'crew' ....when one person might have done the trick previously.


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## belboid (Feb 20, 2013)

DaveCinzano said:


> PS I believe that the "strange group [which] handed out a leaflet explaining not just why they hadn't joined our march but how they opposed it" was the RCP.


happy days - I had one RCPer trying to tell me why it was wrong to go on the demo even as the blood was running down my head.  he did at least have the decency to look slightly embarrassed upon being told to fuck off.


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## DaveCinzano (Feb 20, 2013)

belboid said:


> happy days - I had one RCPer trying to tell me why it was wrong to go on the demo even as the blood was running down my head. he did at least have the decency to look slightly embarrassed upon being told to fuck off.


If only I had had your turn of phrase I might have saved myself


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## Joe Reilly (Feb 20, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> Dont be pathetic...you know you did. Im still waiting to hear why Denis (50) has to say to me ''should see the size of our crew now''. Ask him go on and I might give up an example or two...


 
I'm asking you for 'an example or two'...


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## Joe Reilly (Feb 20, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> i said i dont know 100% definite. im obviously not going to say why am i?


 
I am reliably informed that there was no involvement by any DAM in Manchester AFA. So if he wasn't involved in Manchester where did he hail from?


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## bignose1 (Feb 20, 2013)

Joe Reilly said:


> I'm asking you for 'an example or two'...


Im asking you why Clifford needed to say that....


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## Joe Reilly (Feb 20, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> Im asking you why Clifford needed to say that....


 
Let's just put the 'hiding behind gangsters' lie to bed then shall we  and just toss into the bin brimming with the rest of your utterly bonkers fabrications.


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## The39thStep (Feb 20, 2013)

Joe Reilly said:


> I am reliably informed that there was no involvement by any DAM in Manchester AFA. So if he wasn't involved in Manchester where did he hail from?


 
There were a couple involved in the Manchester Martyrs stuff, one of them was a manager in some chemical works.


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## malatesta32 (Feb 20, 2013)

bolton DAM and manchester DAM were involved - either individually or as a group  - in northern network mobilisations.


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## The39thStep (Feb 20, 2013)

Joe Reilly said:


> Another cracker from Wikipedia:
> 
> "Critics of the IWCA say it has abandoned socialist politics but only replaced it with a confused "localist working class self-help electoral politics , exemplified by the IWCA slogan " working class power in working class areas". Critics from the Left say this is an unachievable illusion in a capitalist society and an opportunist political approach which tacks to the wind of reactionery white working class attitudes to ethnic minorities, crime, and tolerant multiculturalism , for local electoral advantage. Indeed many critics on the Left would deny that the IWCA sits politically on the Left at all ..." etc
> 
> Not I grant you the amusing 'full on Strasserite' denunciation of the IWCA, coined by the late an unlamented bignose1, though some might think it more than a little short in the evidence department for the likes of Wikipedia.


 
BobfromBromley  is a busy man http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Bobfrombrockley


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## bignose1 (Feb 20, 2013)

Joe Reilly said:


> Let's just put the 'hiding behind gangsters' lie to bed then shall we and just toss into the bin brimming with the rest of your utterly bonkers fabrications.


 
The truth is Joe and Im sure youll understand there needs to be a bit of tippy toeing on the subject for good reasons. I wouldnt put it past ceratin people to crank it up and start trouble which I dont need. Theres a bit of a queue at the moment tbh. The last but one time I was in DC's company it was obvious he fired a warning shot by his statement...with my final outing being a smack in the mouth from one of his 'crew' and it fucks me off that you cannot see this. You laughed at the bitch slapping..thats what I mean...That was for fuck all but you found it funny.

When Clifford wheeled out you know who to lean on the South M/CR BNP ex organiser...it exemplified what I was saying. Total overkill and uneccessary. I even had disagreements with DH on this.

Then there was this bizarre anaylsis by DC of my attendance at the 'funeral'...totally fucking strange thinking. You as Ive said have cunted me off numerous times for some blatantly untrue and unfair reasons for several years. Youve got the whole Searchlight/NR totally wrong. I find no great satisfaction in all this but Ill be fucked if you think you can get away scot free.

Its sad that although I said to myself when I was away in Spain Id fuck this site off when I got back I find it hard to take the perpetual personal hassle. You put me on offer to all and sundry and then you all sit back and stroke your collective dicks like spotty teenagers not quite able to get to the money shot.

As people have said it on here it isnt serving any worthwhile purpose to have this continual bickering. It doesnt fiurther an honest debate but I felt that a stand had to be taken. I dont denigrate your and RA/AFA's contribution for those early years. What ever I did that you may not have agreed or had suspicion of and I can accept someof that..my loyalty was/is to the anti facsist movement in Manchester and where needed further afield. That much surely by record shouldnt be open to contention...??


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## malatesta32 (Feb 20, 2013)

bit of a rumble in MCR with antiascists attacked. could do with a 'crew' out now!


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## jackie 68 (Feb 20, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> bolton DAM and manchester DAM were involved - either individually or as a group - in northern network mobilisations.


Thats news to me. The Bolton group were anarchists but far far from the DAM. They were good people into food co-ops etc and with a background in direct action politics, Hunt Sabbing etc. Vandalising churches with slogans charicaturing what it means to let jesus enter you was one of their classics..aledgedly. But no not part of the DAM. 
Manchester DAM were never involved even locally and I cant think of any individuals in Manchester DAM who participated in any northern network call outs from the foundation of the NN to 1998. If I am wrong its the exception that proves the rule Im afraid. DAM people from Preston and I think York did participate for a couple of years and obviously Liverpool made a very important contribution to the NN.


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## malatesta32 (Feb 20, 2013)

bolton DAM members mentioned in here:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/No-Retreat-Dave-Hann/dp/1903854229
and in ere! 
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Physical-Re..._B0034Q9DV4_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1361394576&sr=1-1


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## jackie 68 (Feb 20, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> bolton DAM members mentioned in here:
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/No-Retreat-Dave-Hann/dp/1903854229
> and in ere!
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Physical-Re..._B0034Q9DV4_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1361394576&sr=1-1


 
Not read Physical resistance but NR refers to gary (RIP) but not as a DAM member as he wasn't one. If PR refers to them as DAM that is wrong as they werent the were the Bolton Anarchists not Bolton DAM. Not important to me either way.


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## malatesta32 (Feb 20, 2013)

anyone got info or links on these? 
'JR: There were still major clashes in 1996 with C18 in Holborn and in January 1997 a large mobilisation in pursuit of the NF in Islington, and a clash at count in Glasgow in the same year. '
also trying to flesh out a chronology of events (Le Pen, Griffin, Tyndall) that may have happened. there seems to be a bit of a 'hiatus' between this and 2009. any help gratefully received.


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## DaveCinzano (Feb 20, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> bolton DAM members mentioned in here:
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Physical-Re..._B0034Q9DV4_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1361394576&sr=1-1


 
Seems to have them as Bolton Anarchist Group or the _Bolton Evening Noose_ lot.


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## framed (Feb 21, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> As people have said it on here it isnt serving any worthwhile purpose to have this continual bickering. It doesnt fiurther an honest debate but I felt that a stand had to be taken. I dont denigrate your and RA/AFA's contribution for those early years. What ever I did that you may not have agreed or had suspicion of and I can accept some of that..my loyalty was/is to the anti facsist movement in Manchester and where needed further afield. That much surely by record shouldnt be open to contention...??


 
And that has been acknowledged several times on this thread, certainly by myself and Liam I think, if not others. My own personal dealings with you were good, but there's no medals to hand out mate...

You still seem bitter about the response to NR from RA, but what did you expect? Dave was an ex-member who was forced out under a cloud of suspicion of his own making and a court case that Red Action personnel fished him out of. If it hadn't been for the legal strategy devised and implemented on Dave's behalf he might well have gone to prison, but the strategy worked and he got off. The condition for RA assistance was that he leave all associated organisations, he had brought anti-fascism into disrepute and he had to go.

It doesn't give me any pleasure whatsoever to say these things Steve, because I liked Dave a lot and regarded him as a friend. He was a regular visitor to Glasgow and me to Manchester, him and G were good mates of mine inside RA. It's tragic what happened but I still back the decisions made at the time.

You've thrown so many more counter-allegations against RA personnel into the pot along the way that it's inevitable that there will continue to be discussion around these issues.


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## framed (Feb 21, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> anyone got info or links on these?
> 'JR: There were still major clashes in 1996 with C18 in Holborn and in January 1997 a large mobilisation in pursuit of the NF in Islington, and a clash at count in Glasgow in the same year. '
> also trying to flesh out a chronology of events (Le Pen, Griffin, Tyndall) that may have happened. there seems to be a bit of a 'hiatus' between this and 2009. any help gratefully received.


 
I think I mentioned the count in Glasgow in 1997 a while back on this thread, but didn't go into detail. I'll see what I can dig out on it Mal. It's mentioned in BtF.

There's a press cutting from the Scottish Sun and I have video footage of it on a VHS tape somewhere. The video is good cos just before it kicks off in the count, the BBC's Kirsty Wark says, _"We understand that an anti-fascist group has infiltrated the count..."_ The fash are then attacked as they stand up to wave UJ's and barrack Mohamed Sarwar the Asian Labour candidate. The BNP were then advised by the police to leave for their own safety and as they're escorted out there's AFA lads still having a pop at them, with the voice of Kirsty Wark commenting, _"And there you can see some of the real citizens of Glasgow showing the BNP just exactly what they think of them..." _

We also had a serious confrontation during that election campaign with the BNP in an area of the Govan constituency called Penilee that they regarded as a bit of a stronghold. I was calling the shots that morning and made a serious error of judgement in splitting our troops into two groups, complacently believing that it was a 'no show' from the fash and that our 'leafleters' were safe to split into two groups of 10 to get the leaflet job done quicker. Five minutes later, my group turn a corner and get hit with everything from a well tooled up gang of about 15 fascists and casuals. I think it was the first time experience of having flares fired at them that caused most of the boys to run, leaving me and an RA member from Edinburgh to stand them on our own. I got fucked on the head with an iron bar during that one, but was swinging a dog chain and gassing their front line at the same time. The Edinburgh lad was a kickboxer and he decked one of their main men straight away and they stood off, the silly bastards... our 'runners' recovered their composure and started to come back down the road, but the fash had made their point and headed back into a safer part of the scheme for them. It was a defeat for us though, they got a boost out of it because we were hearing stuff within hours from Celtic casuals who'd been phoned up by crowing rangers lads about the BNP chasing AFA out of Penilee, which wasn't strictly true, but we'd have probably claimed a victory ourselves had we been in their position... We went back two weeks later with 40 AFA and leafleted the whole area to no response from them, even though they came by in a couple of cars but they obviously didn't fancy it.

Post-1997, Edinburgh AFA with support from Glasgow were still mobilising squads off the James Connolly Commemoration and I'm sure they had run-ins with the fash in 1998 and beyond that, but I'll need to check with one of them to confirm and get more details, if you want it...


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## bignose1 (Feb 21, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> bit of a rumble in MCR with antiascists attacked. could do with a 'crew' out now!


 
Before anyone says ffs its 4 -30 in the morning..........Im dropping someone off at the airport.......Mal whats happened Ive been out of the loop recently..??


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## Red Storm (Feb 21, 2013)

There is this 1997 article of an AFA action in Dover.


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## LiamO (Feb 21, 2013)

Do you sleep during the daytime, Red Storm?


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## DaveCinzano (Feb 21, 2013)

Dad's on nights, jumpers for goalposts


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## malatesta32 (Feb 21, 2013)

bigman! manc thing was a hoax - why they bother i dont know. but heres a link

https://www.facebook.com/aca.manchester.1/posts/130129807165207

and thanks Framed and Red Storm for the stuff! its going right in today! the end is in sight - although the deadline passed a bit back!


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## LiamO (Feb 21, 2013)

DaveCinzano said:


> Dad's on nights, jumpers for goalposts


 
I was thinking more garlic, crucifixes and silver bullets tbh


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## Red Storm (Feb 21, 2013)

LiamO said:


> Do you sleep during the daytime, Red Storm?



9 hour time difference


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## malatesta32 (Feb 21, 2013)

framed said:


> Post-1997, Edinburgh AFA with support from Glasgow were still mobilising squads off the James Connolly Commemoration and I'm sure they had run-ins with the fash in 1998 and beyond that, but I'll need to check with one of them to confirm and get more details, if you want it...


 
anything you can get wd be great - even just dates! im trying to fill the gap between 1996 - 2009!


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## LiamO (Feb 21, 2013)

Have you fucked off to Oz then? Or did you get waylaid in Thailand? Whatever... Fair play to ya


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## Red Storm (Feb 21, 2013)

LiamO said:


> Have you fucked off to Oz then? Or did you get waylaid in Thailand? Whatever... Fair play to ya



Shit side of the 38th parallel for the time being.


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## bignose1 (Feb 21, 2013)

Red Storm said:


> Shit side of the 38th parallel for the time being.


 
This a Korea move.....


----------



## audiotech (Feb 21, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> ...also trying to flesh out a chronology of events (Le Pen, Griffin, Tyndall) that may have happened...


 
Le Pen visit and a '"machete-type weapon" found in a car, with three men arrested'. For hacking flesh out presumably?


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## audiotech (Feb 21, 2013)

S.A.H.B


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## framed (Feb 21, 2013)

audiotech said:


> ffs


 
I respect the Ayatollah for what he did during his period of anti-fascist activism, but not for some of his politically sectarian posts here.


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## malatesta32 (Feb 21, 2013)

[/quote]
i believe that is just the ticket! perfect! cheers mate .


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## audiotech (Feb 21, 2013)

I belong to Glasgow...


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## framed (Feb 21, 2013)

...


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## audiotech (Feb 21, 2013)

Dear old Glasgow toon...


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## framed (Feb 21, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> anything you can get wd be great - even just dates! im trying to fill the gap between 1996 - 2009!


 
Regarding when AFA did or did not 'leave the scene of the crime'. In Scotland no-one stood down or was told to stand down. It was, as described by Joe Reilly in an earlier post, a natural drift. The organisations wound down because the fash had moved on to try to assert themselves in the political mainstream.

Even at the election count in 1997 in Glasgow, despite the fash going around clicking the heels of the mIllies and threatening them, when AFA (with the help of Militant) entered the SECC their arses collapsed. Before it kicked off, the Scottish Organiser of the BNP, Scott McLean, tried to approach me twice to discuss how they were 'no longer a violent organisation'. This was only a couple of weeks after the Penilee clash.

First time he came towards us was as we entered the count, I was at the front with one of the top lads from the Celtic casuals. He came towards us and said, _"What are you lot doing here? We're not into violence any more..."_ To which the Celtic lad immediately quipped, _*"You're fucked then, cos we are!"*_ 

Second time was when AFA made a move towards them and he came towards me again with hands out saying, _"Look, we don't want this, we're political now..."_ and was immediately punched in the mouth by one of the boys and told, _"We don't talk to fascists." _ He went immediately to the cops and tried to get me and the other lad arrested, but the cops didn't want to know, they'd been surprised by the AFA 'infiltration' and were still weighing up which side would be easier to get out of the building.

The thing is, no-one really stopped doing anti-fascist work. To this day, there are still people in Scotland who were involved with AFA and RA doing monitoring and surveillance around the fash. Older heads have also acted in an advisory role to a new generation of younger militants. I spoke as a former AFA organiser to an 80 strong meeting of Celtic Ultras in 2009 along with two IWCA representatives and the son of a recently deceased Spanish Civil War veteran.

Two years ago at the 20th anniversary party of the TAL Celtic fanzine we also had a number of young lads who had formed themselves into a militant group and were doing martial arts training for the possibility of clashes with a violent fascist minority in the SDL. They looked to AFA as their inspiration, so all us old men and 'retirees' couldn't have been doing so badly still to be sought out and asked for advice.


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## framed (Feb 21, 2013)

...


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## malatesta32 (Feb 21, 2013)

awesome stuff wee man! thanks loads!


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## malatesta32 (Feb 21, 2013)

framed said:


> Regarding when AFA did or did not 'leave the scene of the crime'. In Scotland no-one stood down or was told to stand down. It was, as described by Joe Reilly in an earlier post, a natural drift. The organisations wound down because the fash had moved on to try to assert themselves in the political mainstream.


 
i think this is what im gravitating towards:
AFA de-escalated after BNP booted off the streets.
FT still went on even tho RA did IWCA - joe said before.
C18 - the men who never were, never did anything much. nor did RVF BPP arsebugles.
folk as usual were involved in other stuff apart from AF stuff.
activists acted when needed, antifascist activity was engaged in as, when and how approrpriate.
like with most history it seems there wasnt a start and finishing point.
' a natural drift. ' sounds about right

this is up for discussion and i would appreciate any input and guidance. and no shouting!


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## audiotech (Feb 21, 2013)

But what's the matter wi' Glasgow,
For it's goin' roun' and roun'!
I'm only a common old working chap,
As anyone here can see,
But when I get a couple o' drinks on a Saturday,
Glasgow belongs to me!


----------



## framed (Feb 21, 2013)

I would give you a big Kiss smiley but there's none available. 

Edit: I've even gone back and taken that gratuitous dig out of the original post now.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 21, 2013)




----------



## bignose1 (Feb 21, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> This a Korea move.....


 
Or a bit of seoul searching.......


----------



## malatesta32 (Feb 21, 2013)

you will never better 'toast brown, this time he wants his toast brown!'


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 21, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> you will never better 'toast brown, this time he wants his toast brown!'


the pugh article's interesting: but i imagine you're using a load of sources for the mosley chapter. pugh's a reputable academic, so you shouldn't go too far wrong by using him.


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## malatesta32 (Feb 21, 2013)

yeah i have his book which also features his central thesis in the paper. but thanks for the heads up i will adjust the section accordingly!


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 21, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> i think this is what im gravitating towards:
> AFA de-escalated after BNP booted off the streets.
> FT still went on even tho RA did IWCA - joe said before.
> C18 - the men who never were, never did anything much. nor did RVF BPP arsebugles.
> ...


while the main thrust of your book's anti-fascism, some consideration of the intricate and frankly confusing relationship between c18 and b&h/rock against communism during the 90s would be useful, especially as things like waterloo and the unhappy welling incident in 2009 were closely with b&h activity.


----------



## malatesta32 (Feb 21, 2013)

ha ha! just finished editing the C18/B&H  section last night - about 1.45am.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Feb 21, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> You as Ive said have cunted me off numerous times for some blatantly untrue and unfair reasons for several years.


 
Yet more lies in a pathetic effort to provide some moral camouflage for your general mendacity, and your malign and baseless inventions on this thread and elsewhere.


----------



## bignose1 (Feb 22, 2013)

Joe Reilly said:


> Yet more lies in a pathetic effort to provide some moral camouflage for your general mendacity, and your malign and baseless inventions on this thread and elsewhere.


 
Rather sweeping Joe....


----------



## Joe Reilly (Feb 22, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> Rather sweeping Joe....View attachment 29260


 
List the 'basic untruths'.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Feb 22, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> i think this is what im gravitating towards:
> 1. AFA de-escalated after BNP booted off the streets.
> 2.FT still went on even tho RA did IWCA - joe said before.
> 3.C18 - the men who never were, never did anything much. nor did RVF BPP arsebugles.
> ...


 
1. AFA never 'de-escalated'. There was never any pro-active response operationally to the BNP chucking it. There was a _political_ assesment of where militant anti-fascism's responsibility lay should the BNP disengagement from the streets prove to be permanent.

It was multiple choice: should militant anti-fascism support efforts to fill the political void in working class areas or simply allow the BNP a free run at what is after all 'our', which is to say the Left's historic constituency?

Back Labour or the Trot left in doing so?

Or finally do nothing, sit on the sidelines, on the grounds that _interfering_ politically was beyond the anti-fascist remit (Searchlight's position as articulated via Leeds/Huddersfield)?

(2). Post 1994 AFA operated exactly as before. Regional meetings were maintained. Surveillance was carried out. The national office was manned and funded. The website was kept updated. FT was produced distributed and sold as before. RA, on which the responsibility landed, always devoted sufficient resources in terms of personell and funds to maintain AFA profile and structures.

(3). Individually C18 membership was extremely dangerous, well capable of extreme violence, including murder ( and would have cut a swathe through traditional left had that been their target) but operated as a hooligan firm, were poorly led, and also suffered from state infiltration at leadership level.

(4). Red Action's developmemt of the IWCA outside of AFA was in _addittion_ to the responsibilities addresssed in answer (2).

(5). Post 1997, it increasingly became apparent that there was little or nothing to do - unless you consider stalking hopelessly small groups that couldn't muster more than 50 degenerates nationally the epitome of anti-fascism, while ignoring the vastly superior numbers of the politically ambitious fascists massing in a different arena.

Which brings us back to the multiple choice oulined in (1).


----------



## bignose1 (Feb 22, 2013)

Joe Reilly said:


> List the 'basic untruths'.


 
Tell me why Clifford needs a crew?

Your forum circa 2003 was a foul mouthed virulent malevolent threatening hate fest. You invited a free for all. The plain old shit stirrers....fakers...fantasists and trolls......clowns...fash...plod and last but not least those behind the threats.

This happened. You were responsible for that site as a leading member.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Feb 22, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> Tell me why Clifford needs a crew?


 
Ask him.

Btw if the 'untruths' in the plural is proving too much of a struggle, start off with one.


----------



## bignose1 (Feb 22, 2013)

Joe Reilly said:


> Ask him.
> 
> Btw if the 'untruths' in the plural is proving too much of a struggle, start off with one.


 
I have!


----------



## Joe Reilly (Feb 22, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> especially as things like waterloo and the unhappy welling incident in 2009 were closely with b&h activity.


 
About the 'unhappy welling incident' what lessons were learnt from the post mortem?


----------



## Joe Reilly (Feb 22, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> I have!


 
The 'basic untruths' that you attribute specifically to me - pick one.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 22, 2013)

Joe Reilly said:


> 1. AFA never 'de-escalated'. There was never any pro-active response operationally to the BNP chucking it. There was a _political_ assesment of where militant anti-fascism's responsibility lay should the BNP disengagement from the streets prove to be permanent.
> 
> It was multiple choice: should militant anti-fascism support efforts to fill the political void in working class areas or simply allow the BNP a free run at what is after all 'our', which is to say the Left's historic constituency?
> 
> ...


 
This is how I recollect events.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 22, 2013)

Joe Reilly said:


> About the 'unhappy welling incident' what lessons were learnt from the post mortem?


the sort of lessons i wouldn't want to post up on a bulletin board like this


----------



## bignose1 (Feb 22, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> you will never better 'toast brown, this time he wants his toast brown!'


 
What about the gag at the concert in Nottingham when we nearly caused a riot in the pub next door with a rumour Terry had got food poisoning from a dodgy Chinese.......why whats happened the crowd were asking....'he's done too much too much foo yung''....we only just got out in time.


----------



## ayatollah (Feb 22, 2013)

framed said:


> I respect the Ayatollah for what he did during his period of anti-fascist activism, but not for some of his politically sectarian posts here.


 
 And I can assure you I respect all of you for your anti fascist activism, back in the day. However, that was then, this is now.  It's always amusing when a loosely identifiable grouping of avid posters on Urban75,  who  seldom seem to claim IWCA membership, but nevertheless  all "sing from the same political hymn sheet" , accuse a political critic of "sectarianism". "Pot and Kettle" time chaps. This IWCA 'esque grouping's comments  can be tracked back on every thread on Urban for years rubbishing each and every political initiative by the radical Left - particularly broad united front anti fascist initiatives over the last few years. Indeed BtF, though generally an excellent book, is used to yet again float a deeply sectarian IWCA  "line" on the Left - which is repeatedly caricatured as being innately ,hopelessly "Liberal, middle class, multiculturalist, ignoring the white working class, obsessed with identity politics"  , and by  a very non-logically-connected inference the entire political tradition of Socialism, is seen as therefore  no longer "relevant"  to the working class. Looks pretty "sectarian" politics and  commentary to me. But then maybe when YOU lot are attacking the Left and every one of their initiatives , this is just "fair comment" ? Well maybe it is indeed. And maybe when commentator after commentator from the anarchist Left in particular  , in books like "Physical Resistance" or periodic thread posts here, who were active when the argy bargy in the mid 1990's was occurring around the attempt by RA to funnel the AFA Network into the (we now know dead-end) non-socialist, localist, electorally focussed,  IWCA project express their very different recall of the impact of RA's role in the mid to late 1990's on the continuing ability  of anti fascists to organise against the still sporadic upsurges of fascist activity, then, and later, maybe that is genuine , "I  was there... this is how I recall it", "fair comment "  by them too ? Neither side actually need to be lying - it's how each side actually experienced that time and interprets events. Hann in "No Retreat is certainly in no doubt that the "line" from RA WASN'T to keep both the IWCA initiative AND AFA going in parallel. RA wanted to "fold" the AFA network into the IWCA project - on the basis that "street fascism was over.. It's time to get down onto the landings in White working class communities". A viable view then, but not one held by many others  in the AFA Network . And given the peculiar politics of the IWCA - not an alternative political project that was likely to attract many people who wished to remain socialist activists to.

I've expressed many times my disagreement with the IWCA's politics. Which I think were mistaken, opportunist, workerist, and profoundly reactionery.  However history has passed judgement on them by now too. It was a failed initiative - based on set of inaccurated  judgements and perspectives.  Let it rest in peace.

You've got to be able to "take it" as well as "dish it out" lads.. without wailing "sectarian" and "nasty man" at every critic. You used to be able to do that on the physical front back in the day, but on the debating front nowadays you all too often react to alternative views and criticism like a maiden aunt confronted by a rampant flasher.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Feb 22, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> the sort of lessons i wouldn't want to post up on a bulletin board like this


 
I wasn't asking for any level of detail the broad conclusions would do.


----------



## jackie 68 (Feb 22, 2013)

[quote="ayatollah, post: 11999495,"the argy bargy in the mid 1990's was occurring around the attempt by RA to funnel the AFA Network into the (we now know dead-end) non-socialist, localist, electorally focussed, IWCA project express their very different recall of the impact of RA's role in the mid to late 1990's on the continuing ability of anti fascists to organise against the still sporadic upsurges of fascist activity, then, and later, maybe that is genuine , "I was there... this is how I recall it", "fair comment " by them too ? Neither side actually need to be lying - it's how each side actually experienced that time and interprets events."

What argy bargy? Thats the point people are trying to say they were against it all along when if they were they said nothing, Hann, John Severn etc are trying to put themselves into the history as defeated or pushed out politically when they werent. That and of course the idea that we had had enough and were past it- not like them of course. 
I accept it is possible to interpret events differently but maybe you would consider why no dates, places etc are given for this argy bargy or why there was a 5 year gap between the heroic defeat of the afa rearguard on the IWCA  and anything like a new organisation emerging. 

"I've expressed many times my disagreement with the IWCA's politics. Which I think were mistaken, opportunist, workerist, and profoundly reactionery. "

You may have, though you haven't explained what you would have done in the circumstances we found ourselves in. You haven't explained how you would have adapted to suit the changed circumstances of the BNP moving onto new ground away from street violence.

Im sure you would have made a valuable contribution if you had been around in the 90s but as you weren't maybe you should moderate your tone at least, this isn't a matter between you and Joe its about lessons for future activists.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 22, 2013)

ayatollah said:


> And I can assure you I respect all of you for your anti fascist activism, back in the day. However, that was then, this is now. It's always amusing when a loosely identifiable grouping of avid posters on Urban75, who seldom seem to claim IWCA membership, but nevertheless all "sing from the same political hymn sheet" , accuse a political critic of "sectarianism". "Pot and Kettle" time chaps. This IWCA 'esque grouping's comments can be tracked back on every thread on Urban for years rubbishing each and every political initiative by the radical Left - particularly broad united front anti fascist initiatives over the last few years. Indeed BtF, though generally an excellent book, is used to yet again float a deeply sectarian IWCA "line" on the Left - which is repeatedly caricatured as being innately ,hopelessly "Liberal, middle class, multiculturalist, ignoring the white working class, obsessed with identity politics" , and by a very non-logically-connected inference the entire political tradition of Socialism, is seen as therefore no longer "relevant" to the working class. Looks pretty "sectarian" politics and commentary to me. But then maybe when YOU lot are attacking the Left and every one of their initiatives , this is just "fair comment" ? Well maybe it is indeed. And maybe when commentator after commentator from the anarchist Left in particular , in books like "Physical Resistance" or periodic thread posts here, who were active when the argy bargy in the mid 1990's was occurring around the attempt by RA to funnel the AFA Network into the (we now know dead-end) non-socialist, localist, electorally focussed, IWCA project express their very different recall of the impact of RA's role in the mid to late 1990's on the continuing ability of anti fascists to organise against the still sporadic upsurges of fascist activity, then, and later, maybe that is genuine , "I was there... this is how I recall it", "fair comment " by them too ? Neither side actually need to be lying - it's how each side actually experienced that time and interprets events.* Hann in "No Retreat is certainly in no doubt that the "line" from RA WASN'T to keep both the IWCA initiative AND AFA going in parallel.* RA wanted to "fold" the AFA network into the IWCA project - on the basis that "street fascism was over.. It's time to get down onto the landings in White working class communities". A viable view then, but not one held by many others in the AFA Network . And given the peculiar politics of the IWCA - not an alternative political project that was likely to attract many people who wished to remain socialist activists to.
> 
> I've expressed many times my disagreement with the IWCA's politics. Which I think were mistaken, opportunist, workerist, and profoundly reactionery. However history has passed judgement on them by now too. It was a failed initiative - based on set of inaccurated judgements and perspectives. Let it rest in peace.
> 
> You've got to be able to "take it" as well as "dish it out" lads.. without wailing "sectarian" and "nasty man" at every critic. You used to be able to do that on the physical front back in the day, but on the debating front nowadays you all too often react to alternative views and criticism like a maiden aunt confronted by a rampant flasher.


 
That was then and this is now:



ayatollah said:


> A VERY important point to be made LiamO - hopefully for due noting by any younger comrades who might get involved in the rougher side of things in the future
> 
> - as someone who served jail time directly because of the systematically made up lies of just such a fantasist (see the sad ,farcical , OK also funny, tale of the Rochdale Nine in BTW). I subsequently came across a number of other anti-fascist wannabees definitely suffered from Munchausen Syndrome during my time in anti fascist activity - their attention seeking fantasies and lies are an ever present danger to activists.
> 
> ...


 
Avoid indeed.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 22, 2013)

The39thStep said:


> That was then and this is now:
> 
> 
> 
> Avoid indeed.


is there any difference except the bold bit in the first two quotes?


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 22, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> is there any difference except the bold bit in the first two quotes?


 
only the small matter that he was advocating Hann  as a dangerous,dangerous type to avoid and then quotes Hann as proof of his argument about what he thinks happened with AFA.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Feb 22, 2013)

ayatollah said:


> And I can assure you I respect all of you for your anti fascist activism, back in the day. However, that was then, this is now. It's always amusing when a loosely identifiable grouping of avid posters on Urban75, who seldom seem to claim IWCA membership, but nevertheless all "sing from the same political hymn sheet" , accuse a political critic of "sectarianism". "Pot and Kettle" time chaps. This IWCA 'esque grouping's comments can be tracked back on every thread on Urban for years rubbishing each and every political initiative by the radical Left - particularly broad united front anti fascist initiatives over the last few years.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Until you actully begin to respond to previous posts where direct questions are put to you, and begin draw on actual quotes from BTF or the IWCA rather than simply make them up, with speech marks added "at either end"  for added authenticity - or just as bad quote from the IWCA Wikipedia page when you might as well have submitted the original contribution yourself, then I'm inclined to dismiss you as provocateuring troll not worth the bother.

In addition lazily presenting _Physical Resistance_ and _No Retreat_ as seperate entities and presenting the two books reaching the identical conclusions as compelling - when they were both written by Dave Hann for the same reasons (money and revenge) is too absurd even for you.

Accordingly quoting Hann as an unimpeachable authority is beyond bonkers.

Are we 'forgetting' that he was expelled from AFA for his involvement in street robbery, that he lied about when he joined RA by at least 3 years, (proven by the RA archive) that he lied about when he went to Manchester by a similar amount, (proven by Demu on here) that he lied about what he did there, that he repeatedly presented himself in interviews as an 'AFA founding member' that he shamelessly padded out his CV with events he wasn't involved in at all, and has basically lied ever since.

Moreover, his, as you would have it, principled political oppostion to the analysis offered up in Ftv and the IWCA all came _after_ he was bounced.

Basically he presented himself as a political martyr simply because it was  a lot more convenient than explaining precisely what happened in the alley behind the gay club at 4 in the morning.

Tellingly no one else, not Louise, Deareg, Tilzey on here on the RA forum or in No Retreat, have ever had the nerve to try and explain it publicly either -  _not once in 15 years. _

If Hann was as important as you believe why didn't_ he_ rally and lead the anarchist legions against the fascist hordes of mainly your imagination - add in the theme tune from Gladiator as required.

In summary, quoting Hann on questions relating to RA/AFA/IWCA is as reliable as quoting David Irving on questions about what Hitler knew about the Holocaust.


"


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 22, 2013)

The39thStep said:


> only the small matter that he was advocating Hann as a dangerous,dangerous type to avoid and then quotes Hann as proof of his argument about what he thinks happened with AFA.


i couldn't be fucked to read that block of text 

but i've always had my suspicions about ayatollah


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 22, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> i couldn't be fucked to read that block of text
> 
> but i've always had my suspicions about ayatollah


 
and you with your love of books...


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 22, 2013)

The39thStep said:


> and you with your love of books...


there's books and then there's bollocks, mr 39


----------



## LiamO (Feb 22, 2013)

jackie 68 said:


> Im sure you would have made a valuable contribution if you had been around in the 90s but as you weren't maybe you should moderate your tone at least, this isn't a matter between you and Joe its about lessons for future activists.


 
This.

Ayatollah you are coming across like a scorned mistress. It is unbecoming.


----------



## bignose1 (Feb 23, 2013)

Joe Reilly said:


> Until you actully begin to respond to previous posts where direct questions are put to you, and begin draw on actual quotes from BTF or the IWCA rather than simply make them up, with speech marks added "at either end" for added authenticity - or just as bad quote from the IWCA Wikipedia page when you might as well have submitted the original contribution yourself, then I'm inclined to dismiss you as provocateuring troll not worth the bother.
> 
> In addition lazily presenting _Physical Resistance_ and _No Retreat_ as seperate entities and presenting the two books reaching the identical conclusions as compelling - when they were both written by Dave Hann for the same reasons (money and revenge) is too absurd even for you.
> 
> ...


 
It wasnt in an alley it wasnt behind a gay club and it wasnt at 4am........

your exit from anti fascism was a betrayal and you attempt to hide the shame by this incessant demonisation of Hann. I think you should also look closely at how 'false' accusations' can be damaging.....a close look.


----------



## bignose1 (Feb 23, 2013)

The39thStep said:


> That was then and this is now:
> 
> 
> 
> Avoid indeed.


 
I think JP met Clifford and co when he came up North to see an ill ex comrade and got it both barrells about Hann. It didnt last.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 23, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> I think JP met Clifford and co when he came up North to see an ill ex comrade and got it both barrells about Hann. It didnt last.


 
How was your holiday?


----------



## jackie 68 (Feb 23, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> It wasnt in an alley it wasnt behind a gay club and it wasnt at 4am........
> 
> your exit from anti fascism was a betrayal and you attempt to hide the shame by this incessant demonisation of Hann. I think you should also look closely at how 'false' accusations' can be damaging.....a close look.


 
1)Where , when and what was it then?
2) The false accusations against me made by your mate GP had you down as corroborating witness by the way. 
3) You are one of the few people from that period I know who seem to have completely exited anti-fascism.


----------



## past caring (Feb 23, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> It wasnt in an alley it wasnt behind a gay club and it wasnt at 4am........
> 
> your exit from anti fascism was a betrayal and you attempt to hide the shame by this incessant demonisation of Hann. I think you should also look closely at how 'false' accusations' can be damaging.....a close look.


 
But no denial that he did actually mug him. Nor that he targeted him because he was gay.


----------



## love detective (Feb 23, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> It wasnt in an alley it wasnt behind a gay club and it wasnt at 4am........


 
what didn't happen in an alley behind a gay club at 4am?

if Dave & Mark didn't mug and rob a gay man near a gay club, surely the exact time & place of that not happening is fairly unimportant in the scheme of things?

if Dave & Mark didn't mug and rob a gay man near a gay club, why did the victim immediately ID them after they were caught by the motorbike cops moments after the mugging took place?

if Dave & Mark didn't mug and rob a gay man near a gay club, what were they both doing hanging around outside a gay club at 3am in the morning?

if Dave & Mark didn't mug and rob a gay man near a gay club, why was the victim's library card found in Dave's pocket when he was arrested?

if Dave & Mark didn't mug and rob a gay man near a gay club why did they need a constructed defence involving fake witnesses to construct a back story that forced the victim to crumble in court and the prosecution to go for a lesser deal of a fine for Mark and charges dropped for Dave?

if Dave & Mark didn't mug and rob a gay man near a gay club why did Dave never deny he'd done it when constructing the defence with said fake witness above

if Dave & Mark didn't mug and rob a gay man near a gay club, why was M found guilty of it? If Dave didn't take part in the mugging what was Dave doing with M at 3am in the backstreets of Hume when Mark was mugging a gay man near a gay club?

if Dave & Mark didn't set out to mug and rob a gay man near a gay club, why did Mark, after the arrest and in the presence of Dave and the false witness, make the comment that _'they had good run of it but were bound to get caught sooner or later'_ followed by laughter all round?

edit: sorry, posted this before I saw the two posts above making the same substantive point


----------



## bignose1 (Feb 23, 2013)

jackie 68 said:


> 1)Where , when and what was it then?
> 2) The false accusations against me made by your mate GP had you down as corroborating witness by the way.
> 3) You are one of the few people from that period I know who seem to have completely exited anti-fascism.


 
1) No idea

2) Who is GP

3) I dont know who the fuck you are...but I can assure you I did no such thing...there again talking out of your collective arses. You should however look at DC, GOS and the others who not only exited anti facsism nearly 20 years ago but have been a destructive factor since.


----------



## love detective (Feb 23, 2013)

if you've no idea what did or didn't happen in an alley behind a gay club at 4 am why did you say *it* wasn't in an alley behind a gay club at 4 am?


----------



## bignose1 (Feb 23, 2013)

The39thStep said:


> How was your holiday?


 
Ill PM you later


----------



## bignose1 (Feb 23, 2013)

love detective said:


> if you've no idea what did or didn't happen in an alley behind a gay club at 4 am why did you say *it* wasn't in an alley behind a gay club at 4 am?


 
Ooooo Sherlock got me there. Could it be I was saying it sort of didnt happen.....der


----------



## love detective (Feb 23, 2013)

it would be a very convoluted and odd way of saying it didn't happen if you were

any comment on the other points?


----------



## bignose1 (Feb 23, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> 1) No idea
> 
> 2) Who is GP
> 
> 3) I dont know who the fuck you are...but I can assure you I did no such thing...there again talking out of your collective arses. You should however look at DC, GOS and the others who not only exited anti facsism nearly 20 years ago but have been a destructive factor since.


 
Ah its you Heddon....just worked it out. Well I think youll find I told GP I thought you were iffy...he chose to bring it up. My gut feeling..your a wrong un.
....now before you get your knickers in a twist Ive had plenty of this meself by your comrades. Your political history is fucking dodgy.


----------



## bignose1 (Feb 23, 2013)

love detective said:


> it would be a very convoluted and odd way of saying it didn't happen if you were
> 
> any comment on the other points?


 
Any comment on my other points


----------



## LiamO (Feb 23, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> Ooooo Sherlock got me there. Could it be I was saying *it sort of didnt happen*.....der


 
You _know_ that is not true. You have known _for 20 years_ that is not true. You have said that to me privately many times. What you have posted has no credibility. None whatsoever. You know this. You have known this for 20 years.

_Why do you continue with this nonsense?_


----------



## jackie 68 (Feb 23, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> 1) No idea
> 
> 2) Who is GP
> 
> 3) I dont know who the fuck you are...but I can assure you I did no such thing...there again talking out of your collective arses. You should however look at DC, GOS and the others who not only exited anti facsism nearly 20 years ago but have been a destructive factor since.


 
1) You have no idea why Dave was arrested with Mark and Mark subsequently did the plea bargain that got dave off and saw him only fined?
2)Its all in the thread above Glenn your mate.
3)Im JH as you know. But you broke with searchlight in 94 remember and no-one can place you doing anything else but searchlight except very fleetingly ever since. Give examples of being a destructive factor, destructive to anything but your and Daves books. If I was to pick out someone as a consistently destructive factor that would have to be you. If you want to do something useful you could circulate this for me http://www.facebook.com/#!/events/408676672559991/?fref=ts
Hope you are well J


----------



## bignose1 (Feb 23, 2013)

jackie 68 said:


> Dearg- unfortunately life is not as simple as you want it to be.
> 
> Dave and Tilzley were both on the one hand good blokes with good records of anti-fascist activities and on the other hand human beings with flaws. I wont even start on Tilzleys flaws, Ill restrict myself to Dave a man I greatly admired but who fucked up royaly.
> Dave had a terrible year the lowpoint of which was the mugging, he then thanks to his comrades and his co-accused beat that charge (he never by the way denied his guilt to anyone in the run up to the trial you should check this out with anyone exept Tilzley). I wont go in to other things that happened that year on here but the mugging in my view wasn't even the worst of them. You can get a flavour from his own book where in trying desperately to find an excuse to mention Glenn "solo" he talks about an incident one weekend at a pizza place I think you know well on oxford road where some fool got a kicking in a row in the queue. He chose not to talk about the attack on the editor of the Pink Fanzine by the same solo and his co-accused Mark because they thought all skinheads were dodgy!.
> ...


 
Your a cheeky cunt at best Heddon. Who the fuck do you think you are having a poke at my record. You infer in this post early on that I am dodgy and then at the end a completly made up story that I put someone in danger ahead of Searchlight. Thats bang out of order. It was my loyalty to others outside of Searchlight that led to me ending my relationship with them aroun 94. You however have the unique record of actually being too dodgy for Searchlight. They fucked you out of the door pronto. It was around this time you wre darting in and out of all sorts of groups that quite a few people had concerns.(nothing to do with being a Rangers fan..Leeds we can live with) Stockport County can be forgiven. Your political journey has been colourful to say the least but the only time I actually saw you fight a fascist I would have preferred you had stayed at home.


----------



## jackie 68 (Feb 23, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> Ah its you Heddon....just worked it out. Well I think youll find I told GP I thought you were iffy...he chose to bring it up. My gut feeling..your a wrong un.
> ....now before you get your knickers in a twist Ive had plenty of this meself by your comrades. Your political history is fucking dodgy.


 
Oh why would I get my knickers in a twist when you make such a reasoned argument and use such definitive terms. That and your own impeccable record, case closed.


----------



## bignose1 (Feb 23, 2013)

I cant believe Im being asked to put my record on offer to you. A fucking nerve pal. You know fuck all about whats gone on up here or who's been doing what. All your mob did was hide behind...yes that old one but its fucking true. And its a disgrace that it was allowed to happen in the good name and tradition of anti fascism. An undignified episode and you should hang your heads in shame.


----------



## bignose1 (Feb 23, 2013)

jackie 68 said:


> Oh why would I get my knickers in a twist when you make such a reasoned argument and use such definitive terms. That and your own impeccable record, case closed.


 
You hide behind snide clever comments..I call a spade a spade. Cheerio.


----------



## jackie 68 (Feb 23, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> Your a cheeky cunt at best Heddon. Who the fuck do you think you are having a poke at my record. You infer in this post early on that I am dodgy and then at the end a completly made up story that I put someone in danger ahead of Searchlight. Thats bang out of order. It was my loyalty to others outside of Searchlight that led to me ending my relationship with them aroun 94. You however have the unique record of actually being too dodgy for Searchlight. They fucked you out of the door pronto. It was around this time you wre darting in and out of all sorts of groups that quite a few people had concerns.(nothing to do with being a Rangers fan..Leeds we can live with) Stockport County can be forgiven. Your political journey has been colourful to say the least but the only time I actually saw you fight a fascist I would have preferred you had stayed at home.


 
Classic steve. I use the word flawed- which we all are and you accuse me of being dodgy ie bent etc- Glenn took this all the way to paid police informer. I was only involved with searchlight as an afa rep in kent and as you know when i went to manchester I BROKE WITH THEM when Mike L told me not to have anything to do with you or afa! Darting in and out of what groups? Militant 84-92 AFA, 91-99, RA 93-99. No other groups in Britain. Quite a few people had concerns about these groups, who? More bluster.
j


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## bignose1 (Feb 23, 2013)

LiamO said:


> You _know_ that is not true. You have known _for 20 years_ that is not true. You have said that to me privately many times. What you have posted has no credibility. None whatsoever. You know this. You have known this for 20 years.
> 
> _Why do you continue with this nonsense?_


 
I spoke to you privately and you know what I said. Its wrong to twist that now Liam.


----------



## LiamO (Feb 23, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> I spoke to you privately and you know what I said. Its wrong to twist that now Liam.


 
I know what you said. I also made notes. I am twisting nothing.

You can't say one thing to one person and another to the next. well you can... but it catches up with you. 

I wish you no ill. But your behaviour on here is increasingly erratic.... and your claims at times bordering on delusional.


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## bignose1 (Feb 23, 2013)

jackie 68 said:


> Classic steve. I use the word flawed- which we all are and you accuse me of being dodgy ie bent etc- Glenn took this all the way to paid police informer. I was only involved with searchlight as an afa rep in kent and as you know when i went to manchester I BROKE WITH THEM when Mike L told me not to have anything to do with you or afa! Darting in and out of what groups? Militant 84-92 AFA, 91-99, RA 93-99. No other groups. Quite a few people had concerns about these groups, who? More bluster.
> j


Read your post again and dont try to squeeze out of it. You tried to attack me by making up all sorts of damaging stuff so dont start crying foul.

Up to 94 I was the S/L man in the N/W. You landed up here with an enthusiasm I found a little disconcerting saying you were the new Searchlight guy but shortly after they spoke to me about you as you had already started to disrupt things so they dropped you. I was coming to the end of my relationship with them because of my ties with AFA and 'unconventional types' Presumed by some as making a play for my role they didnt reciprocate because although they were showing me the door they didnt appreciate the little kicks you were giving me on the way out. ML tells me that you were making a play for that spot too and adding a little spice to the pot.

With dummy out of the pram you went to RA with a vengeance.

Back to the GP thing. I was asked an opinion. I have/had no hard evidence. So he was wrong. You on the other hand make allegations that I set up people and put them in danger of physical injury...an accusation that is deeply damaging. You cant have it both ways. Thats the problem with your lot.


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## bignose1 (Feb 23, 2013)

LiamO said:


> I know what you said. I also made notes. I am twisting nothing.
> 
> You can't say one thing to one person and another to the next. well you can... but it catches up with you.
> 
> I wish you no ill. But your behaviour on here is increasingly erratic.... and your claims at times bordering on delusional.


 
You made notes of a private call.

Sheesh.


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## chilango (Feb 23, 2013)

As a historical aside. who is/was this Mark guy? it may ir may not fill in a gap or two for me....


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## jackie 68 (Feb 23, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> Read your post again and dont try to squeeze out of it. You tried to attack me by making up all sorts of damaging stuff so dont start crying foul.
> 
> Up to 94 I was the S/L man in the N/W. You landed up here with an enthusiasm I found a little disconcerting saying you were the new Searchlight guy but shortly after they spoke to me about you as you had already started to disrupt things so they dropped you. I was coming to the end of my relationship with them because of my ties with AFA and 'unconventional types' Presumed by some as making a play for my role they didnt reciprocate because although they were showing me the door they didnt appreciate the little kicks you were giving me on the way out. ML tells me that you were making a play for that spot too and adding a little spice to the pot.
> 
> ...


 
What nonsense. I arrived in Manchester in july 92 having had maybe 3 telephone conversations with searchlight office and never having met any of them. When I set up the kent afa group it was without any experienced people and I looked to searchlight for info and AFA national organiser as well for more practical help. Thats it, the long and the short of it. When I handed over contact to another guy in Kent SL  put me in touch with Mike L(the main searchlight man in the NW) he calls me and you to a meeting in his office, introduces us ,then after a while you leave and mike tells me not to get involved with afa and you as he says AFA "leaks". I leave and phone him later that day and tell him Im not interested in acting behind anyones back thank you and good luck. I then in late sept join manc afa at freshers stall at manc poly, help out etc. I leave Militant the following spring. The accusation I had already started to disrupt things etc so Searchlight showed me the door..more classic Steve- like how, where, when, why?  Anyway no-one else is interested so lets leave this stuff.
As for the incident with G and Dave in Rochdale it is well documented elsewhere, I think even in NR? Yeah I think the post you quote covers it though what you draw from it ie that you therefore have the right to line up with GP is a stretch even for you. Regards j


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## bignose1 (Feb 23, 2013)

chilango said:


> As a historical aside. who is/was this Mark guy? it may ir may not fill in a gap or two for me....


 
A cunt.


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## chilango (Feb 23, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> A cunt.



Heh. That doesn't narrow it down much...


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## LiamO (Feb 23, 2013)

He was one of any number of 'lads' and 'geezers', with a healthy disregard for the establishment and intuitive grasp of class politics, who knocked about with AFA - and who's presence we were damned glad of at times.

The general idea was that the bonds built mutual anti-fascist activity the behaviour of AFA would rub off on _them_... and would positively influence their behaviour... not the other way round.


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## LiamO (Feb 23, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> You made notes of a private call.
> 
> Sheesh.


 
Says Mr Surveillance?

I often make notes of discussions. It helps me remember them... and thus to process what was _actually_ said rather than what I think I remember.

Unfortunately, I would consider it a wise precaution when engaging with you Steve. Not necessarily because you are a bad chap, but because you have a lengthy and consistent track record of tending to 'remember' what you like and 'forget' any inconvenient bits.


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## Fedayn (Feb 23, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> Your political history is fucking dodgy.


 
How and in what way is his political history 'fucking dodgy' as you claim?


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## bignose1 (Feb 23, 2013)

jackie 68 said:


> What nonsense. I arrived in Manchester in july 92 having had maybe 3 telephone conversations with searchlight office and never having met any of them. When I set up the kent afa group it was without any experienced people and I looked to searchlight for info and AFA national organiser as well for more practical help. Thats it, the long and the short of it. When I handed over contact to another guy in Kent SL put me in touch with Mike L(the main searchlight man in the NW) he calls me and you to a meeting in his office, introduces us ,then after a while you leave and mike tells me not to get involved with afa and you as he says AFA "leaks". I leave and phone him later that day and tell him Im not interested in acting behind anyones back thank you and good luck. I then in late sept join manc afa at freshers stall at manc poly, help out etc. I leave Militant the following spring. The accusation I had already started to disrupt things etc so Searchlight showed me the door..more classic Steve- like how, where, when, why? Anyway no-one else is interested so lets leave this stuff.
> As for the incident with G and Dave in Rochdale it is well documented elsewhere, I think even in NR? Yeah I think the post you quote covers it though what you draw from it ie that you therefore have the right to line up with GP is a stretch even for you. Regards j


 
Well documnted...please show me...and in NR....really. So why is what I write nonsense and when you et al start writing your shite the thats the gospel.And shit stirring with ML is also very convenient. he was doing other stuff, the public face...I was the person doing the more interesting things and I was good.

Again you have this obsession with writing up other peoples CV's. Wtf do you know and where do you get this shit. You have written off the past 20 years of my political legacy without any basis and for that and you are just like the others..obsessed with their own self worth but fuck any body else who dares to have one.

When you got involved in SF there was quite a few people raising eye brows and I wasnt at the front of the queue.

I considered your time up here disruptive and insincere. You lined up passed bullets to others to fire and you then tell me Im damaged goods. Maybe its your background but you never fitted for me.


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## bignose1 (Feb 23, 2013)

LiamO said:


> Says Mr Surveillance?
> 
> I often make notes of discussions. It helps me remember them... and thus to process what was _actually_ said rather than what I think I remember.
> 
> Unfortunately, I would consider it a wise precaution when engaging with you Steve. Not necessarily because you are a bad chap, but because you have a lengthy and consistent track record of tending to 'remember' what you like and 'forget' any inconvenient bits.


 
I rang you not about all this shit but about my son.....

.....making notes also proves fuck all....think about it.

Ive just removed your number.

Thanks


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## bignose1 (Feb 23, 2013)

Fedayn said:


> How and in what way is his political history 'fucking dodgy' as you claim?


 
Well if mines dodgy his is double dodgy.....


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## Fedayn (Feb 23, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> Well if mines dodgy his is double dodgy.....


 
That's not a rational basis for making such a claim, more a my dad is bigger than your dad approach, rather unbecoming I would have thought?! My point is based on his political trajectory, not of it unusual or unlinked. Jackie68 has been in the same number of groups over here as me, by your rather poor definition I too am dodgy, as would many many others on the Left.


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## chilango (Feb 23, 2013)

LiamO said:


> He was one of any number of 'lads' and 'geezers', with a healthy disregard for the establishment and intuitive grasp of class politics, who knocked about with AFA - and who's presence we were damned glad of at times.
> 
> The general idea was that the bonds built mutual anti-fascist activity the behaviour of AFA would rub off on _them_... and would positively influence their behaviour... not the other way round.



Ta.


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## LiamO (Feb 23, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> I rang you not about all this shit but about my son.....
> 
> .....making notes also proves fuck all....think about it.
> 
> ...


 

_This_ is why people (even people who like you) cannot trust you.

I have no idea whether you believe that this, your latest confabulation, but I can tell you unequivocally that this is blatantly untrue.

1. The phone call in question was not about your son. Although I am sure he will be suitably impressed with you dragging him onto this thread.

Let's be clear.The _only_ person dragging your family into this is you. Not me. Ever. Only you.

This is a good example of the distraction strategies - and blatant playing to the gallery for sympathy - that you have employed throughout this thread.

2. The phone call in question was _very_ specific. You were on here denying all knowledge of involvement in letters from Carter Ruck to Freedom Press and the authors of BtF- despite you being _specifically_ named by Carter-Ruck on an official letter as being Louise P's (_specific, named and only_) source for the names of the authors.

I made contact with you to inform you that, whether you were aware of it or not, that was the case and your name was being put in the frame.

You said you were not happy with that and would be taking it up with Louise and with Carter-Ruck immediately.

To date you have yet to confirm that you did anything of the kind.

Instead you _have _(somewhat bizarrely, but entirely consistent with your inconsistency) popped up on here to deny even the existence of the letter

* in the full knowledge that LD etc cannot just post the contents up because that would leave them open to legal action from Carter-Ruck - who would be only too glad to exact some form of payback... given they were handed their arse on a plate by the authors when they tried their bullying tactics... as you well know. 


PS if you would like to remove any reference to your son once you have had an opportunity for reflection, I will be more than happy to remove any reference to him in my post.


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## jackie 68 (Feb 23, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> 1)Well documnted...please show me...and in NR....really. So why is what I write nonsense and when you et al start writing your shite the thats the gospel.And shit stirring with ML is also very convenient. he was doing other stuff, the public face...I was the person doing the more interesting things and I was good.
> 
> No just responding to your slagging with facts.
> 
> ...


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## bignose1 (Feb 23, 2013)

No reported sightings...you pompous twat...you fuck off to Ireland and reinvent yourself..your middle classness is laughable.


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## bignose1 (Feb 23, 2013)

LiamO said:


> _This_ is why people (even people who like you) cannot trust you.
> 
> I have no idea whether you believe that this, your latest confabulation but I can tell you unequivocally that this is blatantly untrue.
> 
> ...


 
Thats bollox mate we talked about that first so where do you go from here when you blatantly lie. You should also remember the RA site brought in deeply personal references to me and family. I think you should get a grip of that.


----------



## bignose1 (Feb 23, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> Thats bollox mate we talked about that first so where do you go from here when you blatantly lie. You should also remember the RA site brought in deeply personal references to me and family. I think you should get a grip of that.


 
I said Daves association with Turner was unhealthy. I added I would take up with LP the Carter Ruck thing which I did. It probably didnt go down well. But not for a minute did I expect you to make notes. I talked to you about my lad and his mum and that was for me the jist of the conversation.
Liam Im dissapointed.


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## jackie 68 (Feb 23, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> No reported sightings...you pompous twat...you fuck off to Ireland and reinvent yourself..your middle classness is laughable.


 
Thats me told.


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## LiamO (Feb 23, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> I said Daves association with Turner was unhealthy ... blah
> Liam Im dissapointed.


 
Stop it. Just... stop.

_You're_ disappointed?

You've just brought your son... again... and now your ex into this? Why? If you were genuine could you not just refer to a personal conversation - without dragging innocent individuals into it?

You bring them in... and then attack me for it? 

There _is_ no gallery to play for sympathy here.


----------



## LiamO (Feb 23, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> You should also remember the RA site brought in deeply personal references to me and family. I think you should get a grip of that.


 
More diversion and distraction. We are not on a long dead forum. We are on this one. And your behaviour is alarming, frankly.


----------



## LiamO (Feb 23, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> ...you fuck off to Ireland and reinvent yourself..your middle classness is laughable.


 
Or 'you move to Ireland and continue your working-class political activity and community activism' which is exactly what John did... including starting a Sinn Féin Cumann in a place where there had not been one for 50 years or more. 

middle classness? Prolier than thou?

Stop this. You are making yourself look a bit of a nutter.


----------



## bignose1 (Feb 23, 2013)

LiamO said:


> Stop it. Just... stop.
> 
> _You're_ disappointed?
> 
> ...


Sorry mate this is the real world they are real people. Adults not children any more. Mentioned mine not yours orf anyone else's so theres  no problem......It didnt bother you when Daves children had to endure the type of shite being put out about their dad with duoble dollops. Stop moralising...I thought your training would allow you to understand that sort of thing.


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## bignose1 (Feb 23, 2013)

LiamO said:


> More diversion and distraction. We are not on a long dead forum. We are on this one. And your behaviour is alarming, frankly.


 
The forum my dear was able to viewed as late as 2010. Were you not around with the launch of NR...that forum was a complete cess pit. And you shouldnt come out with the 'come on move on statements'...you bring up plenty from the past.


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## LiamO (Feb 23, 2013)

I am off for an extended break from Urban. No doubt you will still be here diverting, distracting, disembling and confabulating if and when I return. 

Here is a picture of some squirrel shit.







That's how nutty you look on this thread.


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## bignose1 (Feb 24, 2013)

LiamO said:


> I am off for an extended break from Urban. No doubt you will still be here diverting, distracting, disembling and confabulating if and when I return.
> 
> Here is a picture of some squirrel shit.
> 
> ...


----------



## bignose1 (Feb 24, 2013)

And so am I Liam....you are a very decent fellow...we will never agree on some stuff and I apologise for any shitty staements said in a charged up atmosphere. I feel Im done here. And out of consideration for all good people on this forum Im taking a break...(on Saturday next I will come back with some pics etc.) Then Ill fuck off proper for a while.


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## framed (Feb 24, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> It wasnt in an alley it wasnt behind a gay club and it wasnt at 4am........
> 
> your exit from anti fascism was a betrayal and you attempt to hide the shame by this incessant demonisation of Hann. I think you should also look closely at how 'false' accusations' can be damaging.....a close look.


 
Are you offering an alternative narrative to the mugging scenario?

If so, I'd like to read it...

At least you're no longer denying Dave's involvement in nefarious 'after hours' activities.


----------



## framed (Feb 24, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> Your a cheeky cunt at best Heddon. Who the fuck do you think you are having a poke at my record. You infer in this post early on that I am dodgy and then at the end a completly made up story that I put someone in danger ahead of Searchlight. Thats bang out of order. It was my loyalty to others outside of Searchlight that led to me ending my relationship with them aroun 94. You however have the unique record of actually being too dodgy for Searchlight. They fucked you out of the door pronto. It was around this time you wre darting in and out of all sorts of groups that quite a few people had concerns.(nothing to do with being a Rangers fan..Leeds we can live with) Stockport County can be forgiven. Your political journey has been colourful to say the least but the only time I actually saw you fight a fascist I would have preferred you had stayed at home.


 
If a person's 'political journey' into AFA is, in and of itself, considered to be 'dodgy' then many more would fail your anti-fascist 'cricket test'. Many of those who led AFA in various branches and regions had been through the left. There is nothing inherently 'dodgy' in that. A 'political journey' might also imply political development and enlightenment.


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## framed (Feb 24, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> The forum my dear was able to viewed as late as 2010. Were you not around with the launch of NR...that forum was a complete cess pit. And you shouldnt come out with the 'come on move on statements'...you bring up plenty from the past.


 
Iirc you claimed in an earlier post that you may have downloaded or printed out some of the content from the old RA forum that you found to be most offensive and personal. If you do have that material, why not publish it here with appropriate redactions (_no pun intended_)?


----------



## BobFromBrockley (Mar 1, 2013)

framed said:


> The ubiquitous 'Bob From Brockley' is all over that last page presenting himself as an expert on all things AFA & IWCA. I suspect he's the culprit for much of the falsehoods and revisionism. In fact, his name is on most of them.


 
Framed (and others), please let me know what falsehoods and revisionisms I have put on AFA or IWCA wikipedia pages and I will gladly remove them. I've just looked again at these pages and made some edits, but I've barely touched the IWCA page until today and with the AFA page am fairly sure I've not added anything that doesn't stand up. I think you might be thinking other people's edits are mine. Yes, I did put someone else's stuff that I removed from the Wikipedia page onto my own blog, for the sake of discussion and not because I agreed with it, but I didn't endorse it in any way.


----------



## BobFromBrockley (Mar 1, 2013)

Joe Reilly said:


> Bob, I stand behind everything I said about AFA. Had I known you had posted this, I would have replied earlier.


 
Joe, I hope this is OK but I've copied your reply to my blog. I didn't realise you had replied either. Btw I never intended to make it look like I accepted Rance's version of this.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Mar 1, 2013)

ayatollah said:


> I've expressed many times my disagreement with the IWCA's politics. Which I think were mistaken, opportunist, workerist, and profoundly reactionery. However history has passed judgement on them by now too. It was a failed initiative - based on set of inaccurated judgements and perspectives. Let it rest in peace.


 
Yes indeed, you have expressed your disagreement with IWCA politic's or rather what you yourself singularly decided were iWCA politics - without - needless to say without ever quoting the IWCA on any IWCA policies.

But be that as it may, your chief groan, oft repeated is that the IWCA is 'non-socialist'.

Your lazy and concieted assumption being that the IWCA critique of the extant socialist Left/society must necessarily come from the right. Which many not least Labour Lib Dem oppoenents on the ground would regard with astonishment. In fact, when looked at objectively the IWCA take on on society and your much beloved milk and water socialism is from a communist perspective.

Not communism with a 'big C', or even a small one, not communism through the prism of the 20th century or bolshevism, but the communist method of work as outlined by M&E adapted to circumstance.

It is only necessary to look at Eastleigh to see the thinking behind it. At one end UKIP and the other Tusc.The former having clearly been nudged, away from being a largely dormant single issue party (with many less cllrs that the BNP, and indeed less than the IWCA not too many years ago) outside of European elections are now hungrily filling the vacuum. In places like Rotherham, Middlesbro, Barnsley, it indicates as some research does seem to show, they are reaching out to and gobbling up what might previously considered the BNP demographic.

In interviews on Newsnight voters flagged 'immigration' as the main reason why they were voting UKIP. Very visibly it is they rather than the BNP who now represent far-right aspirations electorally.

Of course one problem with 'borrowing' the 'BNP vote', is that you must continue to constantly nurture it, or having both grown and normalised the asset, risk at some critical stage, as a result of you being 'out-radicalised' seeing it return to base.

So that's one side of Eastlieigh.

The other was represented by Ken Loach on _Question Time_. He rightly pointed out that UKIP represented 'a protest vehicle for the right' and stated what was needed was for it to be balanced by one on the Left. However he clearly believed that this required no more than a sufficiently loud rallying call - without - the necessity of ever addressing how precisely it would present itself 'on the landings' to what is very clearly now the Left's _former_ constituency.

62 votes all too accurately reflects the consequences of not making strategy a consideration and where socialism now stands as a result of failing, over a minimum of 20 years to come to terms with what is really happening up and down the country.

To put this in some perspective; 62 votes is also roughly _a tenth_ of what one IWCA candidate took in a _council ward_ election in Islington in 2006. The IWCA also came within around a 100 votes of a seat in a neighbouring ward. But for the activists on the ground the 3,000 ticks against the IWCA across just two wards was nevertheless regarded with deep disappointment.

That was because they believed in the project (inseperable from a political belief in the working class itself) and were working to a precise plan, and thus set about their work with a _purpose_. Essentially they wanted to be in a position to _compete_.

Again could the contrast with Eastleigh be any greater?

Either way what must surely be obvious by now is that _if_ progressive opinion is ever to seriously get it's act together 'taking note of the IWCA' as a Red Pepper article once put it, 'will be as a good a place to start as any'.

After the Eastleigh humiliation we might ever so tentatively substitute the 'if' with a 'when'.

A poster remarked a couple of years back that the 'IWCA was twenty years too late'. Today, with evidence of the drift to the right beyond dispute, (it's easy to forget that the BNP was still a full 7 years away from it's ist elected cllr in 1995) it might be more convincingly argued the launch was twenty years too early.

Ultimately the choice is straightforward: either you make the necessary adjustments to allow you compete (the 'streets' or 'landings' being one and the same thing) or you fail to do so, and capitulate.


----------



## chilango (Mar 1, 2013)

"A poster remarked a couple of years back that the 'IWCA was twenty years too late'. Today, with evidence of the drift to the right beyond dispute, (it's easy to forget that the BNP was still a full 7 years away from it's ist elected cllr in 1995) it might be more convincingly argued the launch was twenty years too early."

That might well have been me Joe. It is something that I often think hampers the IWCA project, that the 20 years post Thatcher saw the dismantling of the very communities that would be the IWCA base.

But, yeah, I like the 20 years early idea. 

Certainly nothing much has come from the Left in the meantime that comes anywhere near as close as the IWCA did (and hopefully still do) to "having a new plan" however flawed and limited it may prove to be.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Mar 2, 2013)

BobFromBrockley said:


> Framed (and others), please let me know what falsehoods and revisionisms I have put on AFA or IWCA wikipedia pages and I will gladly remove them. I've just looked again at these pages and made some edits, but I've barely touched the IWCA page until today and with the AFA page am fairly sure I've not added anything that doesn't stand up. I think you might be thinking other people's edits are mine. Yes, I did put someone else's stuff that I removed from the Wikipedia page onto my own blog, for the sake of discussion and not because I agreed with it, but I didn't endorse it in any way.


 
So do you have the whiphand?


----------



## BobFromBrockley (Mar 2, 2013)

Joe Reilly said:


> So do you have the whiphand?


 
I'm not sure what you mean. Anyone can edit a Wikipedia page, and anyone can edit it back again. If you see falsehoods, just edit them out. If I see something I know to be false, I edit it out. If I see something I think might be true but there's no evidence to back it up, I do something like cut and paste it to the discussion page so people can discuss it and put it back in if there's evidence.


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## Joe Reilly (Mar 2, 2013)

chilango said:


> "A poster remarked a couple of years back that the 'IWCA was twenty years too late'. Today, with evidence of the drift to the right beyond dispute, (it's easy to forget that the BNP was still a full 7 years away from it's ist elected cllr in 1995) it might be more convincingly argued the launch was twenty years too early."
> 
> That might well have been me Joe. It is something that I often think hampers the IWCA project, that the 20 years post Thatcher saw the dismantling of the very communities that would be the IWCA base.
> 
> ...


 
No matter how 'flawed and limited the IWCA plan' may be deemed to be, we need to bear in mind that what is presented as the plan_ for_ the IWCA by it's many detractors is nine times out of ten, no better than a parody. A caricature.

Indeed outside of the original sponsors very few would probabaly have been privy to the original plan at all.

Even in the AFA discussions around '95 the focus was mainly on the existence of the vacuum and the political responsibility of militants, (if it did indeed exist) to help fill it - not the type of formation that might do it. Much less how it might be done. I don't think we ever got that far.

Ps: In the meantime cheers for the 'twenty years too late' remark it saved me having to make it up.


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## framed (Mar 2, 2013)

BobFromBrockley said:


> I'm not sure what you mean. Anyone can edit a Wikipedia page, and anyone can edit it back again. If you see falsehoods, just edit them out. If I see something I know to be false, I edit it out. If I see something I think might be true but there's no evidence to back it up, I do something like cut and paste it to the discussion page so people can discuss it and put it back in if there's evidence.


 
I think the point was made earlier in the thread that there's been difficulties encountered when attempting to make changes to the IWCA and AFA pages on Wiki.  That you appear to already have an 'in' there is good imho, but it also places a certain amount of responsibility on you to give your entries some substance by reference to AFA and IWCA sources, even if your submissions are critical. I also recognise what you're saying in post #4422, you may well be attempting to achieve the very opposite of the current perception, i.e. a fair and balanced account of the IWCA and AFA, but it's not apparent so far.


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## xslavearcx (Mar 2, 2013)

Joe Reilly said:


> Indeed outside of the original sponsors very few would probabaly have been privy to the original plan at all.


 
I take it that means the original plan is something that one can get the chance of reading only if one is a member?


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## past caring (Mar 3, 2013)

xslavearcx said:


> I take it that means the original plan is something that one can get the chance of reading only if one is a member?


 
No - the discussions within AFA did not go so far as to hammer out the precise nature and programme of the organisation that would 'fill the vacuum' - only that the vacuum existed, that the far right would fill it if the left didn't, that the left had shown itself incapable of filling it and that, as a consequence, filling it was up to us. I don't think there was any fully worked out plan at that stage - we were entering new territory, so there couldn't be.


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## BobFromBrockley (Mar 3, 2013)

framed said:


> I think the point was made earlier in the thread that there's been difficulties encountered when attempting to make changes to the IWCA and AFA pages on Wiki. That you appear to already have an 'in' there is good imho, but it also places a certain amount of responsibility on you to give your entries some substance by reference to AFA and IWCA sources, even if your submissions are critical. I also recognise what you're saying in post #4422, you may well be attempting to achieve the very opposite of the current perception, i.e. a fair and balanced account of the IWCA and AFA, but it's not apparent so far.


 
Thanks Framed. Fair enough. I've only got an "in" by being persistent in editing the pages I try and keep an eye on. It's the good and the frustrating thing about Wikipedia how easy it is to mess with. I've put quotes from Fighting Talk into these articles, some of which have been edited out by others. I've added links to archived AFA and Red Action leaflets, and to IWCA pages. There's been a reference to Beating the Fascists for some time on the AFA page. If you notice anything particular that's dodgy or write something in that gets edited out, give me a shout.


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## Joe Reilly (Mar 3, 2013)

BobFromBrockley said:


> Thanks Framed. Fair enough. I've only got an "in" by being persistent in editing the pages I try and keep an eye on. It's the good and the frustrating thing about Wikipedia how easy it is to mess with. I've put quotes from Fighting Talk into these articles, some of which have been edited out by others. I've added links to archived AFA and Red Action leaflets, and to IWCA pages. There's been a reference to Beating the Fascists for some time on the AFA page. If you notice anything particular that's dodgy or write something in that gets edited out, give me a shout.


 
1.The AFA story began not with an imaginary critique of the ANL long defunct - but in direct response to the 100 strong daylight light attack on the GLC free festival in the summer of 85'. 

2. Almost needless to say there is no refence at all to the 'no more marches meetings punch-ups' declaration by BNP in 94, which is surely pivotal, but is also central to the argument pursued by Louise Purbick and Dave Renton to mention just two. Instead the narrative jumps from Isle of Dogs 1993 - to FTV in 1995 and talk of much 'internal recrimination' - the revisionist trope of choice, so perhaps the omission though glaring is not so surprising given the investment on this thread an elsewhere in maintaining the myth.


3. C18 specifically set up to deal with the AFA stewards group dosen't rate a mention.

4. Nor does _Fighting Talk, _while a criticism of the ideological dimension is allowed to stand.

5. There is no mention of the fall out from Welling March and subsequent _World In Action_ 'AFA expose' and Searchlight's role behind the scenes.

6. And again Leeds was not suspended for 'ignoring' policy on collaborating with Searchlight but because the branch was exposed as an entryist op who sought to subvert AFA from within.


7.Note too that NP and AFN have been mischieviously tacked on at the bottom strongly suggesting continuity but totally inaccurate - while the date for the Main Event clash with B&H is wrongly put as 1988.

Some of this might have been forgiveable before BTF - but more than two years after?

Not laying it all at your door and I could go on, but you get the picture.

The IWCA one is hardly any better.

As they stand a misleading mess.

The question is, can we do anything about it?


edit The other question is does it actually matter?


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## Joe Reilly (Mar 4, 2013)

Joe Reilly said:


> Yes indeed, you have expressed your disagreement with IWCA politic's or rather what you yourself singularly decided were iWCA politics - without - needless to say without ever quoting the IWCA on any IWCA policies.
> 
> But be that as it may, your chief groan, oft repeated is that the IWCA is 'non-socialist'.
> 
> ...


 
*"*_Ukip which I founded has sadly become a new version of the BNP with a principal focus on immigration and Islam as shown by its flagship 2010 policy to ban the burka and Nigel Farage's claim on Question Time that London's housing shortage was due to council properties being given to migrants the day after they stop off the plane."_

Dr Alan Sked London Evening Standard, March 4


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## xslavearcx (Mar 4, 2013)

past caring said:


> No - the discussions within AFA did not go so far as to hammer out the precise nature and programme of the organisation that would 'fill the vacuum' - only that the vacuum existed, that the far right would fill it if the left didn't, that the left had shown itself incapable of filling it and that, as a consequence, filling it was up to us. I don't think there was any fully worked out plan at that stage - we were entering new territory, so there couldn't be.


 
thanks for that past caring. i've always liked what ive heard about the iwca...


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## Spanky Longhorn (Mar 5, 2013)

Joe Reilly said:


> *"*_Ukip which I founded has sadly become a new version of the BNP with a principal focus on immigration and Islam as shown by its flagship 2010 policy to ban the burka and Nigel Farage's claim on Question Time that London's housing shortage was due to council properties being given to migrants the day after they stop off the plane."_
> 
> Dr Alan Sked London Evening Standard, March 4


 
Not like when Sked used to witter on about fishermen being forced to wear hair nets and condoms on the North Sea


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## BobFromBrockley (Mar 5, 2013)

Joe Reilly said:


> The question is, can we do anything about it?
> 
> edit The other question is does it actually matter?


 
I'll have a look at the AFA page and do some editing today, and then see if it gets edited back... I think it does matter, as, sadly, more people get their information from Wikipedia than from original sources or from books like BTF.


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## TopCat (Mar 5, 2013)

BobFromBrockley said:


> I'll have a look at the AFA page and do some editing today, and then see if it gets edited back... I think it does matter, as, sadly, more people get their information from Wikipedia than from original sources or from books like BTF.


 
Why are you editing the AFA wiki page at all? Have I missed the obvious here? What's it got to do with you?


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## BobFromBrockley (Mar 5, 2013)

TopCat said:


> Why are you editing the AFA wiki page at all? Have I missed the obvious here? What's it got to do with you?


 
Anyone can edit Wikipedia; that's its whole point. I thought the discussion here earlier was that people were complaining the AFA page was a mess and that attempts to improve it were blocked? I've made some edits today http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Fascist_Action mostly based on suggestions above. I didn't do anything about Welling, C18 or Leeds as I don't know enough about them.


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## TopCat (Mar 5, 2013)

BobFromBrockley said:


> Anyone can edit Wikipedia; that's its whole point. I thought the discussion here earlier was that people were complaining the AFA page was a mess and that attempts to improve it were blocked? I've made some edits today http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Fascist_Action mostly based on suggestions above. I didn't do anything about Welling, C18 or Leeds as I don't know enough about them.


 
But what's your interest? Why edit this page and not the millions of others on Wiki?


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## Pickman's model (Mar 5, 2013)

BobFromBrockley said:


> Anyone can edit Wikipedia; that's its whole point. I thought the discussion here earlier was that people were complaining the AFA page was a mess and that attempts to improve it were blocked? I've made some edits today http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Fascist_Action mostly based on suggestions above. I didn't do anything about Welling, C18 or Leeds as I don't know enough about them.


Yeh, anyone can edit wikipedia, but it's usually best if it's done by people who are familiar with the subject: which you by your own admission aren't. It's curious behaviour imo to say the least.


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## BobFromBrockley (Mar 5, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh, anyone can edit wikipedia, but it's usually best if it's done by people who are familiar with the subject: which you by your own admission aren't. It's curious behaviour imo to say the least.


 
I was very active in an AFA branch in my hometown from 1988 to 1993ish, participating in a couple of regional and national events too. I moved to London temporarily in 1991-2, when I was in South London AFA and attended a national conference. I was then in South London AFA from 1997 it was folded in 1999 and remainde in London AFA until (I think) early 2000. I was never in the Stewards' Group and just a rank and file branch member, but I took part in several different activities. So, I'm not an expert, but don't see why it's curious to edit the AFA wikipedia page.


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## Fozzie Bear (Mar 5, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh, anyone can edit wikipedia, but it's usually best if it's done by people who are familiar with the subject: which you by your own admission aren't. It's curious behaviour imo to say the least.


 
I think the problem with the AFA page is that it's been edited by a number of people who are ignorant of, or hostile to AFA. Cases in point being the clown who thought that Nicky Crane was an "alleged" fascist. Or that AFA was "well known for supporting the IRA".

According to his blog, Bob was involved with AFA so is presumably sympathetic and knowledgeable about _some_ aspects of its history.

Frankly editing wikipedia is a pain in the arse, you have to familiarise yourself with its rules and end up in all kinds of tit for tat battles with idiots who have more time on their hands than most.

Bob's edits today seem to have improved the article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Anti-Fascist_Action&diff=542211010&oldid=542202151

(see the right hand side column for what he has put in)

But how long that will last is anyone's guess.


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## TopCat (Mar 5, 2013)

BobFromBrockley said:


> I was very active in an AFA branch in my hometown from 1988 to 1993ish, participating in a couple of regional and national events too. I moved to London temporarily in 1991-2, when I was in South London AFA and attended a national conference. I was then in South London AFA from 1997 it was folded in 1999 and remainde in London AFA until (I think) early 2000. I was never in the Stewards' Group and just a rank and file branch member, but I took part in several different activities. So, I'm not an expert, but don't see why it's curious to edit the AFA wikipedia page.


OK that explains things.


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## love detective (Mar 5, 2013)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Cases in point being the clown who thought that Nicky Crane was an "alleged" fascist.


 
The problem with that one was not so much that it appeared in the first place, but when it was edited to something along the lines of a 'notorious frontline fascist' along with a footnote giving a flavour of Mr Crane's CV* (his multiple convictions for racially motivated violence etc along with references etc..) this was all taken out literally the day after the edit was made and the article reverted back to the use of the word 'alleged' - this edit tennis went on for much longer than it should have done before it settled at something a bit better than it was originally but still not ideal

edit: in fact just looked and the name of Nicky Crane has been removed completely now, so we now just have a nameless 'neo-Nazi skinhead activist' which diminishes the history somewhat - i gave up trying with wikipedia a year or so ago due to crap like this

_*Nicolas Vincenzio ‘Nicky’ Crane, a 6ft 2in heavily built and tattooed bonehead, began his career as a front-line fascist in the late 1970s as a member of the British Movement. He first came to prominence in 1978 when he led an attack by 200 skinheads on the Asian community around Brick Lane. In 1980 he was branded as “worse than an animal” by a judge at the Old Bailey when sentencing him to 12 months for an unprovoked attack with a bottle on a black family waiting at a bus stop. During the 1980s Crane served two further prison terms for politically motivated and violent offences. During one four-year sentence for organising an attack by up to one hundred skinheads on a largely black cinema queue in Woolwich, he lost any possibility of remission after he attacked and badly injured a number of prison officers with a metal tray. In between prison terms, he had served on the Leader Guard of the British Movement, was a key National Front activist, and later Ian Stuart’s right-hand man as head of security for the B&H organisation. By appearance and reputation he was the epitome of right-wing idealism: fascist icon and poster boy_


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## audiotech (Mar 5, 2013)

The NF in 1978.


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## past caring (Mar 5, 2013)

BobFromBrockley said:


> I was very active in an AFA branch in my hometown from 1988 to 1993ish, participating in a couple of regional and national events too. I moved to London temporarily in 1991-2, when I was in South London AFA and attended a national conference. I was then in South London AFA from 1997 it was folded in 1999 and remainde in London AFA until (I think) early 2000. I was never in the Stewards' Group and just a rank and file branch member, but I took part in several different activities. So, I'm not an expert, but don't see why it's curious to edit the AFA wikipedia page.


 
So you'll know me then. I'd be interested to know who you are - you know how the PM thing works on here? Nothing sinister, just interested...


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## BobFromBrockley (Mar 5, 2013)

past caring said:


> So you'll know me then. I'd be interested to know who you are - you know how the PM thing works on here? Nothing sinister, just interested...


 
I don't know how it works, but I'll work it out in the morning.


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## Pickman's model (Mar 5, 2013)

BobFromBrockley said:


> I don't know how it works, but I'll work it out in the morning.


click on past caring, start conversation, go


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## Joe Reilly (Mar 5, 2013)

BobFromBrockley said:


> I didn't do anything about Welling, C18 or Leeds as I don't know enough about them.


 
Scratching my head over how you can have been in AFA and not known about C18 - featured in at least 3 documentaries plus endless news stories - or the controversy over Welling in which the 'left wing' World in Action (as well as national media BBC, Times, and London Evening Standard) all fingered AFA for what is widely acknowledged was a police riot.


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## audiotech (Mar 6, 2013)

'World in Action' had ex-lefties involved and others - that was it.


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## Joe Reilly (Mar 6, 2013)

audiotech said:


> 'World in Action' had ex-lefties involved and others - that was it.


 
Meaning?


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## BobFromBrockley (Mar 6, 2013)

Joe Reilly said:


> Scratching my head over how you can have been in AFA and not known about C18 - featured in at least 3 documentaries plus endless news stories - or the controversy over Welling in which the 'left wing' World in Action (as well as national media BBC, Times, and London Evening Standard) all fingered AFA for what is widely acknowledged was a police riot.


 

Basically, I don’t know enough about the AFA dimensions of Welling or C18 (or about the Leeds debacle) – including what is speculation and what is provable fact – to be qualified to write a clear, informative sentence or so on each of these in a sufficiently neutral and evidence-based way for an encyclopedia article. I’m also not 100% sure how important these are to a beginner’s article about AFA of a couple of hundred words. There’s nothing to stop any of you going to the article, clicking on edit and writing in the right sentences if you think it matters. 

Btw, I was at Welling, but not with London AFA: I was with my hometown AFA branch, who went on the march. I think I’d just moved back to London then, and not re-joined London AFA.)


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## Pickman's model (Mar 6, 2013)

audiotech said:


> 'World in Action' had ex-lefties involved and others - that was it.


others?


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## audiotech (Mar 6, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> others?


 


Joe Reilly said:


> Meaning?


 
Those not "Trotskyists", as Thatcher thought there was "a lot" at WIA.


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## Joe Reilly (Mar 6, 2013)

audiotech said:


> Those not "Trotskyists", as Thatcher thought there was "a lot" at WIA.


 
So what's your point?


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## audiotech (Mar 6, 2013)

Agreeing with the notion that WIA not 'left wing' as some, including Thatcher, thought.


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## butchersapron (Mar 7, 2013)

Can anyone ID the *nightmare* climbing through the window behind the charming Mr D Day here?


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## Joe Reilly (Mar 7, 2013)

BobFromBrockley said:


> Basically, I don’t know enough about the AFA dimensions of Welling or C18 (or about the Leeds debacle) – including what is speculation and what is provable fact –


 
There is unsurprisingly a considerable amount of dis and misinformation surrounding all three cases (Media/police/Searchlight) (SB/Searchlight) and Leeds (Searchlight again)but I would have thought BTF provides sufficient back-up for proveable fact to be seperated out?


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## audiotech (Mar 7, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Can anyone ID the *nightmare* climbing through the window behind the charming Mr D Day here?


 
Not, Simon, the anarchist infiltrator is it?


> Derrick Day did not know that Simon Read was going to be a witness at the inquiry. When Simon worked as a night guard ar [sic] Excalibur House, he got quite friendly with Day. He used to get Day cheap cuts of meat from the kitchen where Simon works as a chef.* Day even invited him round for tea once to his bottom floor flat* on a Hoxton council estate. Day's wife said that Simon looked like a communist, and Day laughed.


 
My emphasis.


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## krink (Mar 7, 2013)

butchersapron said:


>




is that malcolm mclaren narrating? im sure i've seen this film before.

*or is it rotten? is this from Jubilee?


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## butchersapron (Mar 7, 2013)

That's taken from the start of the filth and the fury, Julien Temple's sex pistols film - it's footage from a news prog or doc though. Lydon will surprised/angry that you mistook him for Maclaren!


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## Spanky Longhorn (Mar 7, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> That's taken from the start of the filth and the fury, Julien Temple's sex pistols film - it's footage from a new or doc though. Lydon will surprised/angry that you mistook him for Maclaren!


 
I don't like Lydon or MacLaren but it always cracks me up when Johnny says "we mustn't speak ill of the dead but he was a cunt"


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## BobFromBrockley (Mar 8, 2013)

Joe Reilly said:


> There is unsurprisingly a considerable amount of dis and misinformation surrounding all three cases (Media/police/Searchlight) (SB/Searchlight) and Leeds (Searchlight again)but I would have thought BTF provides sufficient back-up for proveable fact to be seperated out?


 
Stupidly, the other day when I did the Wikipedia edits (in my lunchbreak at work) I left BTF at home. I'll have a look a look later, but my instinct is to stay away from those sorts of topics, given the amount of personal abuse I got got for Wikipedia edits I wasn't even responsible for!  

As a serious question, though, do you think that those three incidents are important enough in the AFA story that they ought to be in a short Wikipedia article? I think probably C18 is, Welling just maybe, but Leeds I wouldn't have thought so?


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## Joe Reilly (Mar 8, 2013)

BobFromBrockley said:


> Stupidly, the other day when I did the Wikipedia edits (in my lunchbreak at work) I left BTF at home. I'll have a look a look later, but my instinct is to stay away from those sorts of topics, given the amount of personal abuse I got got for Wikipedia edits I wasn't even responsible for!
> 
> As a serious question, though, do you think that those three incidents are important enough in the AFA story that they ought to be in a short Wikipedia article? I think probably C18 is, Welling just maybe, but Leeds I wouldn't have thought so?


 
Well Leeds is referenced already - but inaccurately. You invited corrections so I pointed it out. in the round probably not significant enough to put in, but if it is it should at least be correct.

As I understand it the Wikipedia articles are there to both inform and give a flavour of the signifigance of the subject.

Now given that the far right believed C18 was needed to protect the already uber violent BNP among others from the attentions of the AFA stewards group in particular, it provides a strong indication that AFA was something other than the type of run of the mill anti-fascism associated with the ANL mark 2, UAF, Hope not Hate and so on.

Welling on the other hand was a police riot. I think that is broadly accepted? Yet it was AFA that was signalled out by the media, police and a WIA documentary as a, according to the Times editorial, a 'threat to democracy' or words to that effect.

In _Anti-Fascism in Britian_, Nigel Copsey, argues that the clear intention was to intimidate people from getting involved with AFA - but as he also points out, militant anti-fascism continued to grow.

With the end result that it was, beginning with the BNP, the far-right who were the ones left feeling increasingly vulnerable.

A vulnerability that culminated in the BNP formally abandoning the historic Moselyite 'march and grow' strategy in March 1994.

Which, precisely because it is the most arresting fact in the whole struggle is entirely ignored and thus denied by revisionists who would like people to believe that a) AFA had no effect on BNP thinking and b) it was not the far-right at all but AFA (under the 'treachorous' leadership of Red Action natch) who cried uncle.

(If 'brevity/importance' is the issue why the reference to Dover at all - utterly insignificant in the scheme of things?)

Finally if these were the only dates:

July 1985 - AFA formed

March 1994 - BNP abandon 'marches, meetings, punch-ups'

it would serve as a better and briefer epitaph than what the hotch potch of 'facts' served up previously.


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## BobFromBrockley (Mar 8, 2013)

Joe Reilly said:


> Well Leeds is referenced already - but inaccurately. You invited corrections so I pointed it out. in the round probably not significant enough to put in, but if it is it should at least be correct.


 
Yeah, I agree. That's why I added the "dubious" tag to the Leeds claim. My feeling is that shouldn't be in the article at all.



Joe Reilly said:


> (If 'brevity/importance' is the issue why the reference to Dover at all - utterly insignificant in the scheme of things?)


 
I don't think the article needs to be brief, just that care needs to be taken to not give "undue weight" to things that don't deserve it. I agree, Dover's a good example: it's not significant enough to use up words and I'm not sure why it's there. Welling and C18 probably do deserve some space in the article.



Joe Reilly said:


> ... it would serve as a better and briefer epitaph than what the hotch potch of 'facts' served up previously


 
Out of interest, do you think the article is still a hotch potch? I think it still needs work, but don't think it's too far off now.


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## Joe Reilly (Mar 9, 2013)

BobFromBrockley said:


> Yeah, I agree. That's why I added the "dubious" tag to the Leeds claim. My feeling is that shouldn't be in the article at all.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Far more coherent I would say. However I have to take issue with this para:

*"In 1995 London AFA responded with its Filling the Vacuum strategy,[15] which involved offering a political alternative in these communities instead of concentrating on challenging the fascist presence on the streets. Red Action and its allies campaigned within the AFA Network after 1995 for AFA as an organisation to adopt the "Filling the Vacuum" strategy. However, given that AFA contained a number of political groups, with differing political programmes, this, and the decline of street action by the BNP as it embraced "respectable electoralism", contributed to the breakup of much of the AFA network, with much internal recrimination.[16"*

1. The IWCA is counterposed to" challenging the fascist presence on the streets". But as we have pointed repeatedly after 1996 there was no fascist presence on the streets.
So the IWCA was not the alternative to fighting fascists - it was the alternative to doing nothing.

2. Filling the Vacuum was _not_ a strategy - it was an analysis along the lines outlined above. Moreover it was analysis formally adopted by London AFA (by far the largest and most influential branch) and discussed nationally from that perspective.

3. The strategy the BNP pursued was not 'respectable electoralism' but 'euro-nationalism'.

4. When AFA was re-launched in 1989 the springboard for organisation nationally were the DAM, Workers Power and Red Action. It was through their extant branches that AFA was set up in structured democratic way (prior to that there were hardly any branches at all - everything was run top down) and crucially allowed unaligned individuals to get involved. Though it made a political contribution up until 1991 WP was by then feeling the strain and looking a for a way out.
WP left to join the ANL in I think 1992.

By about 1995, the DAM too was suffering internal difficulties and seemingly over-night morphed into the Solidarity Federation.
Interestingly, SF never affiliated to AFA. Outside of RA the only other group involved was the tiny Communist Action Group. In other words, contrary to the claim that AFA contained 'a number of political groups with different programmes' by 1996 the only two remaining groups actually became active sponsors of the IWCA. So much for 'internal recrimination'.
Thus the notion that RA pushed the IWCA down the throats of rival groups to the point where AFA itself felt apart is false. There is no basis for it at all. It should be struck out.

5. This is not to say that the whole FTV analysis was accepted hands down as many did not believe the BNP had abadoned the streets or even if they had, that euro-nationalism would profit outside of the 'special circumstances' of the Isle of Dogs. History shows they were wrong on both counts.And with a million or so votes recorded for the BNP just over a decade later - spectacularly so.
Instructively, the only real opposition to FTV and so forth was led not by any formal sponsor but by the entryist Searchlight entryist operation which dominated Leeds and Huddersfield branches and also sought influence in a couple of others. Their opposition increased as the evidence - that they were subverting AFA from within - mounted. After a painstaking 18 month investigation both branches were _suspended_ in July 1997. Individuals were invited to re-apply for membership. Typically Searchlight sought to present this as an attack on 'anarchists' within AFA. Exactly the same line promoted when some of the same individuals sought to gangster Freedom Press - genuine anarchists - into dropping the publication of BTF.

It can't be stressed enough that the turning point for AFA followed the historic abandonment of the 'march and grow' strategy, (not just by the BNP but all the other smaller groups as well who just weren't strong enough to risk AFA's wrath) and after that, the odd physical force spectacular apart (Bloody Sunday 1995, Hoborn 1996) near everything else was in _political_ terms very much after the Lord Mayor's show.


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## malatesta32 (Mar 10, 2013)

'after the Lord Mayor's show.' Sorry if im a bit thick but could you clarify this? you mentioned it twice.


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## Joe Reilly (Mar 10, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> 'after the Lord Mayor's show.' Sorry if im a bit thick but could you clarify this? you mentioned it twice.


 
Essentially, the BNP declaration in 1994 has been shown to be both seismic and historic and even though there were heavy weight clashes thereafter (with as many as 80 AFA fighters detained) following the clash with C18/Loyalists at Holborn in 1996 for example, it was pure and simply a mopping up operation ( hence ref to 'after Lord Mayor's Show') - dealing with loose ends.

In fact one the principal reasons for the daylight assault under the noses of 300 police, was because Searchlight had stated that such was the level of thuggery C18's was prepared to visit on it's opponents 'anti-fascists dare not confront them'. Though operationally impressive it really had no wider strategic importance at all.


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## malatesta32 (Mar 11, 2013)

thanks it was a phrase i have never heard and it sounds like it kicked off at the lord mayors show.finishing up the AFA section and we're pretty much done! hurrah!


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## BobFromBrockley (Mar 11, 2013)

Joe, on Wikipedia, I think you're right. That para is one of the ones mostly by the Wikipedia editor "Spandrell". I'll work on it some more later in the week.

In too much detail to be relevant to the Wikipedia edit issue, I broadly share your analysis of this period, but with two slight caveats.



Joe Reilly said:


> 1. The IWCA is counterposed to" challenging the fascist presence on the streets". But as we have pointed repeatedly after 1996 there was no fascist presence on the streets.... It can't be stressed enough that the turning point for AFA followed the historic abandonment of the 'march and grow' strategy, (not just by the BNP but all the other smaller groups as well who just weren't strong enough to risk AFA's wrath) and after that, the odd physical force spectacular apart (Bloody Sunday 1995, Hoborn 1996) near everything else was in _political_ terms very much after the Lord Mayor's show.


 
I agree that in that period there were no more big battles, and the fash no longer mounted any real physical challenge - but they didn't dissappear off the streets did they? Wasn't there still a question of whether physical confrontation remained a valid strategy even when they were no longer competing spectacularly for the streets as they had in an earlier period?



Joe Reilly said:


> 4. When AFA was re-launched in 1989 the springboard for organisation nationally were the DAM, Workers Power and Red Action. It was through their extant branches that AFA was set up in structured democratic way (prior to that there were hardly any branches at all - everything was run top down) and crucially allowed unaligned individuals to get involved. Though it made a political contribution up until 1991 WP was by then feeling the strain and looking a for a way out.
> WP left to join the ANL in I think 1992.
> 
> By about 1995, the DAM too was suffering internal difficulties and seemingly over-night morphed into the Solidarity Federation.
> ...


 
I agree, but doesn't this to some extent underplay the presence of non-aligned individuals who, as you say, joined AFA on some scale after the 1989 relaunch? It's true that there were no other *groups* (apart from CAG) by the late 1990s, but there were still large numbers of non-aligned individuals.  Outside of E and N London, and maybe some other places (Manchester?, Oxford?, Glasgow?), I suspect Red Action were still not a majority in most AFA branches. There were still Labour Party members and refugees from all sorts of Trot groups in lots of branches, as well anarchists. Some of these non-aligned individuals embraced the FTV analysis but not the electoral form that IWCA later took, some of them were completely resistant to abandoning physical confrontation, some of them followed the IWCA route. In other words, it wasn't *just* Searchlight agents and their stooges who didn't sign up to the RA line, and (without wanting to over-emphasise it as "Spandrell" does) there was *some* internal recrimination.

(Apologies, coming late to this forum, if this is rehashing the ground you've already been going over.)


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## framed (Mar 11, 2013)

BobFromBrockley said:


> In other words, it wasn't *just* Searchlight agents and their stooges who didn't sign up to the RA line, and (without wanting to over-emphasise it as "Spandrell" does) there was *some* internal recrimination.


 
Bob, on the 'internal recrimination', how many branches of AFA that were part of the national network have you got down, can you list them here please?

There were AFA branches that played no role whatsoever at a national level, sent no delegates to national meetings, etc, but which did play an important role at regional level. Liverpool AFA is probably the best example. I can't remember ever meeting anyone from Liverpool AFA at any national meetings, but they were an important component of AFA in the north-west.

It's important thought that we deal with genuine AFA branches that were part of the network of militant anti-fascists and that we do not include the likes of TWAFA, which was a state-funded Searchlight satelite based in the north-east.

Off the top of the head I can think of the following AFA branches:

North London
South London
East London
Oxford
Bristol
Birmingham
Wolverhampton
Nottingham
Leicester
Manchester
Liverpool
Leeds
Huddersfield
Sheffield
Newcastle (_not TWAFA_)
Glasgow
Edinburgh

I'm not sure that the views of Leeds and Huddersfield on the IWCA would be entirely relevant as they were 'struck off' the national network after their involvement in state and Searchlight 'black ops' were exposed. Newcastle came fairly late to the AFA Network (approx. 1993/94) and had strong connections with people in Edinburgh AFA.

Do you have more to add to that list, as I may have missed some?

Can you please give some info as to the particular branches where there was 'internal recrimination'. There's no point continuing to talk only about the debate at the level of the AFA NC, if you have details of internal branch discussions where this 'recrimination' took place... (?)


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## gawkrodger (Mar 11, 2013)

slightly OT, but I always said Telford was dodgy







Who knew the far-right had taken to selling Apple products of dubious authenticity?


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## Joe Reilly (Mar 11, 2013)

BobFromBrockley said:


> Joe, on Wikipedia, I think you're right. That para is one of the ones mostly by the Wikipedia editor "Spandrell". I'll work on it some more later in the week.
> 
> In too much detail to be relevant to the Wikipedia edit issue, I broadly share your analysis of this period, but with two slight caveats.
> 
> ...


 
1.The reference to no other 'groups' is purely in response the allegation that FTV was imposed on others 'groups' and that this lead directly to the break up of the network.

2. There is no underplaying of the role of non-aligned individuals - on the contrary the whole strategy for the 1989 relaunch was based on individual membership. Prior to that they were _only_ groups. The point is that they were individuals and made up their mind accordingly, and on an individual basis. Which is why the meetings had to be held up and down the country. None of the groups individually, or the groups collectively, were representative of the AFA membership in its totality.

3. Red Action were in all probability not the majority in _any_ branch. Red Action created the structures for precisely that reason - to increase by 100 fold the level of activists involved on the ground. That was the whole purpose of setting up AFA in the first place. Which is why RA were not only central to the national re-launch beginning in London, as well as bringing WP and DAM [back] on board, but were also key to the regional relaunches in Scotland, the West Midlands and the re-booting of the Northern Network. If Red Action relied on packing meetings to get it's way AFA would not have been structured from the bottom up, creating the basis not only for groups 'with different programmes' but for individual members to be represented within the decision making structures.

4. You can be credibly 'resistant to the idea of abandoning physical confrontation' only up the point where it becomes crystal clear without the least shadow of doubt that the fascists you are meant to be opposing have entered a new arena where the previous strategy has little or no application. Thereafter you can posture - or you can take responsibility for following them there.
'There' supposedly being the Left's very own working class constituency of course.

5. The FTV analysis was formally adopted at an all London meeting in May 1995 and carried by a significant majority. It followed that thereafter the arguments too and fro were mainly from that perspective. There was no Red Action 'line' as such.

6. The only people who tried to influence others _outside_ of their own branches were Searchlight entryists or under their influence. Tellingly It is only Leeds that ever put pen to paper - or putting it another way, sought to put a 'spin' on the London AFA analysis.
Outside of that, the core of their argument was simple: 'it is *not* up to [AFA] to decide how or who should fill the vacuum'.
It was from the outset, a pro-Labour, pro establishment argument. And remains the position of Hope Not Hate today.

As outlined in BTF there was indeed much sceptisism a) had the BNP effectively surrendered b) would the Isle of Dogs model be applicable even if they had and c) and much later on, if it turned out that AFA indeed need a specific 'political wing' at all - why wasn't the likes SLP etc fit for purpose. History provides the actual answers to all of those questions. Except that as we all know others are already busily re-writing it.

7. When FTV was published AFA was at it's absolute zenith. So there was a certain shock when people were sort of informed the game was probably over, when for many it felt like we were really hitting our stride. Which is why AFA ascendancy and the BNP abandonment of a core fascist principle are co-related. This is exactly how the BNP leadership sought it too. Where the problem lay for those behind the FTV analysis is that it was always a _projection_ of what was going to happen down the line - almost a decade down the line as it happens - if we see the election of the first BNP cllrs as a vindication. As for a I know the Left has no real history of doing that succesfully, so intense debate was inevitable. Generally it was fairly amicable with one or two exceptions. The point is that from the March 1994 declaration, AFA operationally was redundant. Whether or not not the FTV analysis was published, whether or not RA sought sponsors for the IWCA outside of the militant anti-fascist parameters had nothing to do with AFA's decline as an organised entity. That physical part of the job was done, and done well. The far-right were driven from the streets. But now it was over. The only question FTV posed is 'what comes next?

The only way you can tie FTV to AFA ultimately ceasing to be,  is to entirely ignore the BNP decalaration 12 months previously that the 'war' as understood was over, which is of course precisely what those who support the revisionist argument always do.


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## Fozzie Bear (Mar 11, 2013)

There is a brief mention of AFA in this piece by Mark Metcalf on spy cop Mark Jenner/Cassidy
http://www.bigissueinthenorth.com/2...of-knowing-how-much-damage-jenner-caused/7622


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## durruti02 (Mar 11, 2013)

"I've expressed many times my disagreement with the IWCA's politics. Which I think were mistaken, opportunist, workerist, and profoundly reactionery. However history has passed judgement on them by now too. It was a failed initiative - based on set of inaccurated judgements and perspectives. Let it rest in peace."

do the math .. the IWCA with barely a handfull of activists built groups in Oxford, Islington, Hackney and Havering which won or almost won local council seats.wheras the Left, in the community, has achieved fuck all with, apparently thousands of activists, at least over the years
but sorry but how you can write your qoute and not see the irony .. 
it is the Trotskyist Left that 
" .. history has passed judgement on them by now too. It was a failed initiative - based on set of inaccurated judgements and perspectives. Let it rest in peace." "



ayatollah said:


> And I can assure you I respect all of you for your anti fascist activism, back in the day. However, that was then, this is now. It's always amusing when a loosely identifiable grouping of avid posters on Urban75, who seldom seem to claim IWCA membership, but nevertheless all "sing from the same political hymn sheet" , accuse a political critic of "sectarianism". "Pot and Kettle" time chaps. This IWCA 'esque grouping's comments can be tracked back on every thread on Urban for years rubbishing each and every political initiative by the radical Left - particularly broad united front anti fascist initiatives over the last few years. Indeed BtF, though generally an excellent book, is used to yet again float a deeply sectarian IWCA "line" on the Left - which is repeatedly caricatured as being innately ,hopelessly "Liberal, middle class, multiculturalist, ignoring the white working class, obsessed with identity politics" , and by a very non-logically-connected inference the entire political tradition of Socialism, is seen as therefore no longer "relevant" to the working class. Looks pretty "sectarian" politics and commentary to me. But then maybe when YOU lot are attacking the Left and every one of their initiatives , this is just "fair comment" ? Well maybe it is indeed. And maybe when commentator after commentator from the anarchist Left in particular , in books like "Physical Resistance" or periodic thread posts here, who were active when the argy bargy in the mid 1990's was occurring around the attempt by RA to funnel the AFA Network into the (we now know dead-end) non-socialist, localist, electorally focussed, IWCA project express their very different recall of the impact of RA's role in the mid to late 1990's on the continuing ability of anti fascists to organise against the still sporadic upsurges of fascist activity, then, and later, maybe that is genuine , "I was there... this is how I recall it", "fair comment " by them too ? Neither side actually need to be lying - it's how each side actually experienced that time and interprets events. Hann in "No Retreat is certainly in no doubt that the "line" from RA WASN'T to keep both the IWCA initiative AND AFA going in parallel. RA wanted to "fold" the AFA network into the IWCA project - on the basis that "street fascism was over.. It's time to get down onto the landings in White working class communities". A viable view then, but not one held by many others in the AFA Network . And given the peculiar politics of the IWCA - not an alternative political project that was likely to attract many people who wished to remain socialist activists to.
> 
> I've expressed many times my disagreement with the IWCA's politics. Which I think were mistaken, opportunist, workerist, and profoundly reactionery. However history has passed judgement on them by now too. It was a failed initiative - based on set of inaccurated judgements and perspectives. Let it rest in peace.
> 
> You've got to be able to "take it" as well as "dish it out" lads.. without wailing "sectarian" and "nasty man" at every critic. You used to be able to do that on the physical front back in the day, but on the debating front nowadays you all too often react to alternative views and criticism like a maiden aunt confronted by a rampant flasher.


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## durruti02 (Mar 11, 2013)

DP


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## framed (Mar 11, 2013)

Joe Reilly said:


> 3. Red Action were in all probability not the majority in _any_ branch. Red Action created the structures for precisely that reason - to increase by 100 fold the level of activists involved on the ground. That was the whole purpose of setting up AFA in the first place. Which is why RA were not only central to the national re-launch beginning in London, as well as bringing WP and DAM [back] on board, but were also key to the regional relaunches in Scotland, the West Midlands and the re-booting of the Northern Network. If Red Action relied on packing meetings to get it's way AFA would not have been structured from the bottom up, creating the basis not only for groups 'with different programmes' but for individual members to be represented within the decision making structures.


 
This is an important point imho, and one that I was trying to clumsily make in my last post.

Perhaps the point that it was strength of political argument rather than weight of numbers that counted in most AFA branches is illustrated by the fact that at the height of AFA activity Scotland, Red Action had 6 'full members' in Glasgow and only 1 in Edinburgh and another 3 based in the north of Scotland dotted between Aberdeen and Elgin. We had a number of 'supporting members' beyond that, but those 7 'full members' in the central belt are those that could be relied upon to attend AFA branch meetings in addition to mobilising for street activities.


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## framed (Mar 11, 2013)

Fozzie Bear said:


> There is a brief mention of AFA in this piece by Mark Metcalf on spy cop Mark Jenner/Cassidy
> http://www.bigissueinthenorth.com/2...of-knowing-how-much-damage-jenner-caused/7622


 
Interesting piece:

"By the end of 1997 Jenner’s involvement in the CRC had lessened. He still attended some events but mainly to report on his activities within Anti-Fascist Action (AFA), a militant group that had successfully physically confronted the BNP. AFA member Patrick Hayes had been convicted of causing two explosions in the South East on behalf of the IRA in 1993 and the state was certain to be interested in preventing any such actions in the future. Hayes was sentenced to 30 years imprisonment and later released under the Good Friday Agreement. It may be that AFA was always Jenner’s main intended target."


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## BobFromBrockley (Mar 12, 2013)

framed said:


> This is an important point imho, and one that I was trying to clumsily make in my last post.
> 
> Perhaps the point that it was strength of political argument rather than weight of numbers that counted in most AFA branches is illustrated by the fact that at the height of AFA activity Scotland, Red Action had 6 'full members' in Glasgow and only 1 in Edinburgh and another 3 based in the north of Scotland dotted between Aberdeen and Elgin. We had a number of 'supporting members' beyond that, but those 7 'full members' in the central belt are those that could be relied upon to attend AFA branch meetings in addition to mobilising for street activities.


 
Joe, Framed, I basically agree with you. (I don't buy into the RA "line-pushing"/"meeting packing"/"ruse" position; sorry if I gave that impression!) The point about the branches is important.

I think in the mid-1990s when AFA was at its peak, Fighting Talk listed 30-something branches. (There are 31 listed in 1997 http://libcom.org/files/FIGHTING TALK - 16.pdf for example, including Wigan, York, Southampton, Colchester, Exeter, Ipswich.) On the one hand, some (quite a few?) of these were probably tiny or defunct; on the other hand, there were actually always 3 fairly sizeable London branches, as well as several isolated individuals in places like Kent or Somerset that bought into the AFA "brand" and could be mobilised for it, but weren't organised in branches.

I think AFA was unusual in the sense that the "brand" (as created through the 1989 relaunch and its clarification of a militant, two-track position) was endorsed by many more people than ever signed up to the organisation formally, and the loose national structure enabled considerable autonomy for local groups that were barely semi-detached at a national level (although sometimes regionally networked). And on a more local scale, AFA was able to mobilise people for actions who never came to meetings. (My understanding - I'm not sure if this is right - is that even in London there were members of the Stewards Group (or people who be drafted into it for specific actions) who never went to branch meetings.) It was in this very large outer layer that the shock of the game being declared over took longest to reach but hit hard. This was probably more apparent to those outside London, but even in London it did create "recriminations", even if not on the scale the "revisionist" line suggests.

It seems to me that, for all of its successes in the early 2000s, the shift of energies to IWCA without maintaining some structure that could keep this wider movement alive and connected to it meant that a lot of the energy was lost - and this contributed to IWCA's unability to sustain itself on the same high level for too many years. In other words, AFA was at the heart of, and set the agenda for, a <b>movement</b>, whereas IWCA wasn't, and the loss of that movement is something we are paying the price for now.


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## TopCat (Mar 12, 2013)

Joe Reilly said:


> Welling on the other hand was a police riot. I think that is broadly accepted? Yet it was AFA that was signalled out by the media, police and a WIA documentary as a, according to the Times editorial, a 'threat to democracy' or words to that effect.


 
A police riot suggests that come what may the police had every intention of ensuring a riot happened at the chosen spot.

I am not so sure. I think the police made a decision that come what may, the march was not going to go past the red line they had massed their people and equipment at. I am not sure at all that they then wanted to have the huge fight that took place, not least because of the large number of injuries they received at the hands of a ferociously brave crowd.

There was definitely a large element in the crowd who were spoiling for a fight; the view of myself and many comrades on the day was that we were unlikely to break through the police lines but would ensure the police paid a large and bloody price for protecting the BNP HQ in this manner.

The behaviour of the crowd that day was outstanding. The police were unable to out flank the front line as spiked railings on the police's off side had come down off all along the cemetery walls meaning the police would have to climb over a very dangerous obstacle to get at the offside flank and after they tried once, they never dared try again.

The police then repeatedly charged the front line despite being showered with block paving stones, though they did not get far. The crowd retreated a bit and interestingly then outflanked the police's front line on a repeated basis inflicting lots of injuries and causing the police to have to go in to rescue their fallen on many occasions.

The latter part of the day showed a big link up between protesters and local youth. Both joined together to attack the police via alleys, back gardens, front gardens; brick throwing angry people were everywhere.

So to simply dismiss the actions of the protesters on the day as being involved in a "police riot" is to miss a series of important points. This was a riot all right, but the police got far more then they bargained for.


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## laptop (Mar 12, 2013)

TopCat said:


> I think the police made a decision that come what may, the march was not going to go past the red line they had massed their people and equipment at. I am not sure at all that they then wanted to have the huge fight that took place, not least because of the large number of injuries they received at the hands of a ferociously brave crowd.


 
That's what I saw going on.

Plus, the SWP marching the well-meaning mass into that red line, then pulling back themselves.


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## Nigel (Mar 12, 2013)

Fozzie Bear said:


> There is a brief mention of AFA in this piece by Mark Metcalf on spy cop Mark Jenner/Cassidy
> http://www.bigissueinthenorth.com/2...of-knowing-how-much-damage-jenner-caused/7622


Apparently according to a friend who stayed at his place during this time, he was the ideal candidate for entrapement to any Republican Para Military Activity: always pushing a hardline position including indiscriminate violence and sectarian attacks.
As part of his cover(or at least using it as an excuse) developed severe dope habit as well!


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## Nigel (Mar 12, 2013)

Was East Surrey Anti Fascist Action ever officially affiliated to AFA?
Was wondering in connection to the relation with Tim Wright/Scargill, Class War and its relation to AFA as a whole!


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## bignose1 (Mar 12, 2013)

gawkrodger said:


> slightly OT, but I always said Telford was dodgy
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


And this is Durham....


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## malatesta32 (Mar 13, 2013)

does anyone have a problem with me quoting some of the previous stuff on AFA for the anti-fascist book? also i have drawn extensively from 1st person accounts on here if anyone has a problem with me using it let me know. cheers. hoping to finalise the book today!


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## The39thStep (Mar 13, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> does anyone have a problem with me quoting some of the previous stuff on AFA for the anti-fascist book? also i have drawn extensively from 1st person accounts on here if anyone has a problem with me using it let me know. cheers. hoping to finalise the book today!


 
Did you get anything on No Platform and 635?


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## malatesta32 (Mar 13, 2013)

i got a wee bit on NP but nowt on 635. any links or owt? im quoting you as well feller!


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## The39thStep (Mar 13, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> i got a wee bit on NP but nowt on 635. any links or owt? im quoting you as well feller!


 
There were at one time some posters on here involved in both


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## malatesta32 (Mar 13, 2013)

hmm.. not found much about em tho remember the 635 logo. just googled it tho. wonders of t'internet eh?


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## krink (Mar 13, 2013)

just stumbled on this on youtube. anyone else taken trophies like the bnp/c18 flag in this video? i took a bnp placard off them once but i just smashed it up. not quite the same is it


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## Pickman's model (Mar 13, 2013)

krink said:


> just stumbled on this on youtube. anyone else taken trophies like the bnp/c18 flag in this video? i took a bnp placard off them once but i just smashed it up. not quite the same is it



i was at a fenian benefit in holloway many years ago when a man comes in sporting an orange sash. it turned out he'd relieved its original owner of the sash at drumcree.


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## malatesta32 (Mar 13, 2013)

although its the other way, i think it was topcat who splodged chips on martin websters head, does that count?


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## chilango (Mar 13, 2013)

krink said:


> just stumbled on this on youtube. anyone else taken trophies like the bnp/c18 flag in this video? i took a bnp placard off them once but i just smashed it up. not quite the same is it



Amongst a haul of Nazi tat we "acquired" on one occasion I got a pair of cherry red docs that fitted me perfectly. Lasted for years.


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## TopCat (Mar 13, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> although its the other way, i think it was topcat who splodged chips on martin websters head, does that count?


It was a selfless move given how hungry I was as a kid.


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## malatesta32 (Mar 13, 2013)

ah it was you TC. is it okay to put that in the book? bit of err.. light relief - though not for you at the time probably!


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## bignose1 (Mar 13, 2013)

krink said:


> just stumbled on this on youtube. anyone else taken trophies like the bnp/c18 flag in this video? i took a bnp placard off them once but i just smashed it up. not quite the same is it




Thats me on there with the flag.....not so much a trophy...found it in a carrier bag after a demo in the midlands somewhere. Its a duvet cover and a pillow case......


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## bignose1 (Mar 13, 2013)

And that's my footage of C18's first public outing shortly after their formation following the Kensington Library set to.


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## malatesta32 (Mar 13, 2013)

blimey! C18 clearly werent making that much money then!


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## TopCat (Mar 13, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> ah it was you TC. is it okay to put that in the book? bit of err.. light relief - though not for you at the time probably!


Yeah it was me. It must have been in 1980.


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## malatesta32 (Mar 13, 2013)

were they in a bag or with gravy?


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## TopCat (Mar 13, 2013)

In South London in 1980, gravy was not sold as an _*accompaniment*_ to chips. That was and I think still is a rather Northern habit.


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## audiotech (Mar 13, 2013)

Webster was decked a couple of times when visiting Leeds in the late 70's. I bumped into one of his boyfriends (not Griffin) in Bradford, at a RAR gig of all places. A conversation ensued.


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## framed (Mar 13, 2013)

Salt 'n Sauce is an Edinburgh middle-class affectation.

Real anti-fascists have salt 'n vinegar on their chips, we'll have none of this gravy, curry sauce or ketchup malarkey please.


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## audiotech (Mar 13, 2013)

Mushy peas.


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## TopCat (Mar 13, 2013)

framed said:


> Salt 'n Sauce is an Edinburgh middle-class affectation.
> 
> Real anti-fascists have salt 'n vinegar on their chips, we'll have none of this gravy, curry sauce or ketchup malarkey please.


 
Well said.


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## The39thStep (Mar 13, 2013)

audiotech said:


> Webster was decked a couple of times when visiting Leeds in the late 70's. I bumped into one of his boyfriends (not Griffin) in Bradford, at a RAR gig of all places. A conversation ensued.


 
what was discussed?


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## Spanky Longhorn (Mar 13, 2013)

The pros and cons of having gravy with chips


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## audiotech (Mar 13, 2013)

The39thStep said:


> what was discussed?


 
How, as a gay man, he could reconcile his relationship with an avowed Nazi and the fact that homosexuals just like him were sent to concentration camps.

Edit: Curry and chips. Was Bradford afterall.


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## krink (Mar 13, 2013)

i'm a salt n vinegar man but in my town the youth have taken to having 'kebab meat' on their chips. fucking animals.


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## malatesta32 (Mar 13, 2013)

spicey sausage and chips with sauce in auld reeky! proper supper!


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## malatesta32 (Mar 13, 2013)

also do folk know pea wet? the juice left after the peas have all gone put on chips?


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## intersol32 (Mar 13, 2013)

krink said:


> just stumbled on this on youtube. anyone else taken trophies like the bnp/c18 flag in this video? i took a bnp placard off them once but i just smashed it up. not quite the same is it




Some of us from Notts went over to give Wolves AFA a hand when some local doughnut had organized a White Pride Picnic in a park out that way. The whole thing was a damp squib with even the fash primarily staying away. The exception was some bloke who turned up carrying a load of White Power banners nailed to broom handles which he was quickly relieved of. Towards the end of the afternoon a couple of Wolves members decided to pay a personal visit to the organizer (in his sixties from what I recollect) to see why he hadn't come out to play. They came back and could hardly speak through laughing. He'd opened his front door wearing nothing but a dirty pair of Y fronts.


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## DaveCinzano (Mar 13, 2013)

krink said:


> i'm a salt n vinegar man but in my town the youth have taken to having 'kebab meat' on their chips. fucking animals.


 
I hope they use a fork else they'll get kebab bum fingers.


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## krink (Mar 13, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> also do folk know pea wet? the juice left after the peas have all gone put on chips?


 
i have that on my sunday dinner instead of gravy.


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## DaveCinzano (Mar 13, 2013)

krink said:


> i have that on my sunday dinner instead of gravy.


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## Spanky Longhorn (Mar 13, 2013)

krink said:


> i have that on my sunday dinner instead of gravy.


 
In Newcastle they call peawet "Sunderland Gravy"


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## bignose1 (Mar 13, 2013)

And what about Cravy...its a mix of curry and gravy...you get it at the Quaddy 'chippy.'.....in Streford near me. Actually t is not so much a chippy more a kebab/pizza joint so I suggest it does kebab barms too along with other assorted niceities....actually reading it back its not a mix its one on top of another.


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## audiotech (Mar 13, 2013)




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## DaveCinzano (Mar 13, 2013)




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## krink (Mar 14, 2013)

chips covered in melted cheese is a big thing up here too. cheesy chips, yuck.


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## disco_dave_2000 (Mar 14, 2013)

I used to get chips with hummus on from a Turkish place in Camberwell.


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## Sue (Mar 14, 2013)

framed said:


> *Salt 'n Sauce is an Edinburgh middle-class affectation.*


 
  Pizza supper with salt and sauce -- food of the Gods.


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## Louis MacNeice (Mar 14, 2013)

krink said:


> chips covered in melted cheese is a big thing up here too. cheesy chips, yuck.


 
Eating cheesy chips and ketchup with a little wooden fork out of a polystyrene tray while watching Isle of Wight speedway; a pretty good way to spend an evening.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


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## Sue (Mar 14, 2013)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Eating cheesy chips and ketchup with a little wooden fork out of a polystyrene tray while watching Isle of Wight speedway; a pretty good way to spend an evening.
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice


 
When I was a kid, we thought using a wooden fork was posh (you used to have to pay for them in those days).


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## Louis MacNeice (Mar 14, 2013)

Sue said:


> When I was a kid, we thought using a wooden fork was posh (you used to have to pay for them in those days).


 
I know what you mean. But me and my lad were stood there breathing in the smell of the bikes and the cinder, breathing out foggy clouds and digging into our mounds of cheese, chips and sauce with our little wooden forks. It all seemed just right.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


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## chilango (Mar 14, 2013)

Poutine.


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## bignose1 (Mar 14, 2013)

Louis MacNeice said:


> I know what you mean. But me and my lad were stood there breathing in the smell of the bikes and the cinder, breathing out foggy clouds and digging into our mounds of cheese, chips and sauce with our little wooden forks. It all seemed just right.
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice


 
I prefer those wooden forks..those placcy buggers always lose their prongs and you dont usually find out til youve got one going down the neck!!


----------



## bignose1 (Mar 14, 2013)

Ive been using my tagine 3 times a week sometimes when I dont really need to ie with fish dishes....that doesnt really need slow cooking.
Since losing my job Ive got more into my cooking..maybe thats where I might go...fuck going back into social housing with all that bedroom tax bollox...!! But still like a meat pie chips peas and gravy from time to time...


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## Louis MacNeice (Mar 14, 2013)

chilango said:


> Poutine.


 
I've just looked that up and no it didn't involved gravy (which would be good, but probably not with cheese and wasn't on offer anyway) or curd cheese (just no).

Cheers - (a slightly peckish) Louis MacNeice


----------



## chilango (Mar 14, 2013)

Louis MacNeice said:


> I've just looked that up and no it didn't involved gravy (which would be good, but probably not with cheese and wasn't on offer anyway) or curd cheese (just no).
> 
> Cheers - (a slightly peckish) Louis MacNeice



When I've had it's had gravy, and the cheese curds were actually just like normal cheese, but melted  under the gravy.

Best chip dish ever.

Although the Belgian/Dutch chips are nice too.


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## bignose1 (Mar 14, 2013)

chilango said:


> When I've had it's had gravy, and the cheese curds were actually just like normal cheese, but melted under the gravy.
> 
> Best chip dish ever.
> 
> Although the Belgian/Dutch chips are nice too.


They only ever use mayo in those places which I like on chips etc but they use way too much..!!


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## bignose1 (Mar 14, 2013)

Ive now got an urge for a kebab...why has this happened..talk of Pavlovs dog....!!


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## krink (Mar 14, 2013)

chips with curry sauce on top on the way to me now - thanks Mrs Krink!


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## malatesta32 (Mar 14, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> Ive been using my tagine 3 times a week sometimes when I dont really need to ie with fish dishes....that doesnt really need slow cooking.
> Since losing my job Ive got more into my cooking..maybe thats where I might go...fuck going back into social housing with all that bedroom tax bollox...!! But still like a meat pie chips peas and gravy from time to time...


yes but whose pies? hollands every time!


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## malatesta32 (Mar 14, 2013)

cheese and chips is wrong. in any combo. it just is.


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## bignose1 (Mar 14, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> cheese and chips is wrong. in any combo. it just is.


No Parmesan...


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## Pickman's model (Mar 14, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> cheese and chips is wrong. in any combo. it just is.


what about nachos with tortilla chips?


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## Pickman's model (Mar 14, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> yes but whose pies? hollands every time!


who's pies? OUR PIES


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## bignose1 (Mar 14, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> yes but whose pies? hollands every time!


Yeah of course....funny a few days ago a guy came into my local chippy and asked if they were halal...and the girl working there replied no sorry theyre hollands...she was only young though bless her.


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## bignose1 (Mar 14, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> who's pies? OUR PIES


 
I love those lattice pies ham and leek etc....


----------



## Joe Reilly (Mar 14, 2013)

BobFromBrockley said:


> Joe, Framed, I basically agree with you. (I don't buy into the RA "line-pushing"/"meeting packing"/"ruse" position; sorry if I gave that impression!) The point about the branches is important.
> 
> I think in the mid-1990s when AFA was at its peak, Fighting Talk listed 30-something branches. (There are 31 listed in 1997 http://libcom.org/files/FIGHTING TALK - 16.pdf for example, including Wigan, York, Southampton, Colchester, Exeter, Ipswich.) On the one hand, some (quite a few?) of these were probably tiny or defunct; on the other hand, there were actually always 3 fairly sizeable London branches, as well as several isolated individuals in places like Kent or Somerset that bought into the AFA "brand" and could be mobilised for it, but weren't organised in branches.
> 
> ...


 
The London 'recriminations' you refer were located solely amid certain elements in South London who it was noted at the time took up a line of argument not too dissimilar to the line minted in Leeds.

Despite this everything was dealt with on a 'straight bat' basis which included not responding to the threats of violence directed against the RA members in it.

The 'shift of energies' argument has merit only if you ignore totally the BNP (and by extension the entire far-right) cessastion which began in 1994 and was complete by 1997.

It probably bears repeating that the real 'shift of energies' was within the BNP which transformed itself from an old school street-fighting force into an electoral party and thus increased its vote a 100 fold in a decade and a half. (That this bank of support is now leaking and reinforcing the UKIP surge is hardly any cause for celebration, as it can just as easily 'leak' back again for one.)

As you say AFA was able to set the agenda for a wider anti-fascist movement but there was literally nothing for the IWCA pilot schemes to identify with.

As we put it at the time 'the notion of a Labour Movement is a myth'.

There was nothing to do but start from scratch. Start from scratch or - do nothing.

It is this reality that the wider Left are still struggling to come to terms with today.

Or as Owen Jones put it in _The Independent_ only this week: _"The truth is, the right has been winning the intellectual argument for 30 years." _

Since the IWCA was saying precisely that - but - in the mid-1990's we can safely make that 45 years then.

And not only has the Right been winning intellectually it has (including fascism proper) been adapting strategically and tactically too.

Not only here but across Europe. This too has been evident since the mid-80's.

From the Left in the same period?

Withering scorn and contempt and screams of heresy following even the slightest suggestion that we may need to consider a change of plan.

It is that wilful stupidity that we are just beginning to 'pay the price for now'.


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## Pickman's model (Mar 14, 2013)

Joe Reilly said:


> Start from scratch or do nothing.


although doing nothing's a grand way to remain ideologically pure


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## audiotech (Mar 14, 2013)

You leave out Respect and its attempts to forge something out of the anti-war movement. I'm curious as to why?

Edit: I see why Respect is left out. It's the 'start from scratch' scenario. To do what?


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## past caring (Mar 14, 2013)

disco_dave_2000 said:


> I used to get chips with hummus on from a Turkish place in Camberwell.


 
Bolu kebab? Or the one next to the Silver Buckle? Bolu is better - or at least was in the days where there was no offie open after midnight....


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## malatesta32 (Mar 15, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> although doing nothing's a grand way to remain ideologically pure


 
its not 'doing nothing' its 'negation' according to the situationists (but it really is doing nothing. and drinking).


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## malatesta32 (Mar 15, 2013)

framed said:


> Salt 'n Sauce is an Edinburgh middle-class affectation.
> 
> Real anti-fascists have salt 'n vinegar on their chips, we'll have none of this gravy, curry sauce or ketchup malarkey please.


 
check yr pm feller!


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## Spanky Longhorn (Mar 15, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> I love those lattice pies ham and leek etc....


 
can't you just lattice be?


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## bignose1 (Mar 16, 2013)

Spanky words of wisdom.......


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## tony.c (Mar 16, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> I love those lattice pies ham and leek etc....


Can't get those Hollands pies in London though.


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## malatesta32 (Mar 16, 2013)

try morrisons man! they get S&K and classic meat!


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## phildwyer (Mar 17, 2013)

chilango said:


> Although the Belgian/Dutch chips are nice too.


 
The French actually call the Belgıans 'les frıtes.'  I don't thınk ıt's a complement.


----------



## barney_pig (Mar 17, 2013)

tony.c said:


> Can't get those Hollands pies in London though.


Didn't know what these holland pies were when they were mentioned on here, all the pies in our chip shops are pukka.
Then I went into tescos this morning and saw a box of holland pies in the freezer #powerofurban


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## bignose1 (Mar 18, 2013)

phildwyer said:


> The French actually call the Belgıans 'les frıtes.' I don't thınk ıt's a complement.


rather a condiment...


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## bignose1 (Mar 18, 2013)

barney_pig said:


> Didn't know what these holland pies were when they were mentioned on here, all the pies in our chip shops are pukka.
> Then I went into tescos this morning and saw a box of holland pies in the freezer #powerofurban


 
If youre ever in Conway try Edwards pies in their shop on the hill.....awesome..!!
ps Im on my way to London shortly to meet an old friend...thats why Im up at this time...I will be swerving pies etc and will be on Brick Lane at some point later.


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## audiotech (Mar 18, 2013)

If you decide on a curry in Brick Lane be aware of the chilies served in separate side-dishes - they're very hot!!! Even the green ones.


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## chilango (Mar 18, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> If youre ever in Conway try Edwards pies in their shop on the hill.....awesome..!!
> ps Im on my way to London shortly to meet an old friend...thats why Im up at this time...I will be swerving pies etc and will be on Brick Lane at some point later.



Conway?

Do you mean Conwy?

Tsk.


----------



## bignose1 (Mar 18, 2013)

Yes of course......bad error. Got mixed up with that Twitty twat.


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## bignose1 (Mar 18, 2013)

audiotech said:


> If you decide on a curry in Brick Lane be aware of the chilies served in separate side-dishes - they're very hot!!! Even the green ones.


Yeah...I was down there last year...in the dips a bit too enthusiastically....first time in ages....I'll remember this time.


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## Fedayn (Mar 18, 2013)

phildwyer said:


> The French actually call the Belgıans 'les frıtes.' I don't thınk ıt's a complement.


 
They also 'mock' them as stupid because the Walloons are seen as thick' because they speak slowly. They rather view the Belgians in the same manner the Irish are stereotyped over here. The 'irony' is that the further south you go the way people talk speeds up and that those who live in the NE of France round Pas de Calais etc also speak slowly like the Walloons.


----------



## ayatollah (Mar 18, 2013)

Joe Reilly said:


> Or as Owen Jones put it in _The Independent_ only this week: _"The truth is, the right has been winning the intellectual argument for 30 years." _
> 
> Since the IWCA was saying precisely that - but - in the mid-1990's we can safely make that 45 years then.
> 
> ...


----------



## Joe Reilly (Mar 18, 2013)

You might want to edit your post it is I suspect confused/confusing enough already.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 18, 2013)

Joe Reilly said:


> You might want to edit your post it is I suspect confused enough already.


no suspect needed.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 18, 2013)

ayatollah said:
			
		

> Interestingly though , from the 2008 Crash onwards, in the UK, the BNP not having reached a sustainable "critical mass" sizewise to have any impact on the UK austerity policies facing their now increasingly impoverished racist support base, has right across the BNP's previous electoral heartland, actually been exposed as empty windbags, and they have simply been abandoned by their voting base. This of course directly disproves the specific central core of your "Filling the vacuum" prognosis. For a long time you were simply in denial that the "unstoppable" BNP bandwagon had simply come off the electoral strategy rails. Mindless shitstirring against "immigrants" and "Muslims" simply hasn't been the magic key to local electoral advance for the Far Right in the UK. So what was so great and innovative that "The UK Left" had to learn from the BNP ?


you're all over the bloody shop, ayatollah, and not least here. just because bnp votes decline doesn't mean there's not a market out there for far-right ideas, and doesn't mean those votes have gone to any sort of progressive or revolutionary force. and in barking and dagenham, as in the isle of dogs in the 1990s, the bnp vote certainly didn't fade away in 2010 despite the party losing all their seats. the bnp's message remains for many quite a seductive one, and if a better organised party started saying much the same thing without the baggage of nick griffin or his coterie then i wouldn't be surprised if they did well at the ballot box.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Mar 18, 2013)

Perhaps the most interesting part of Ayatollah's analysis is what's missing.

No mention of what the impact of 30 odd years of right wing hegemony, of their dominance in the battle of ideas has had on the working class. On our confidence, on our social solidarity, on our communities, on the organisations reputedly on our side. (But then of course if the working class hasn't been changed then there is no need for the left to change either is there?) 

No discussion of why at a time when the neo-liberal project 'is in ruins' that the left remains utterly irrelevant and its ideas (and parties) met with total indifference.

No credit for the IWCA being one of the few organisations to have attempted to address this state of affairs - intellectually through pieces on economic democracy, deglobalisation and so on; and -organisationally via highly successful pilots in working class communities proving that progressive working class politics can attract widespread support.

In view of where we are at by the way your complacent lauding of those "forces contributing to the anti austerity fightback across the UK today" points towards why if the IWCA didn't exist someone would need to invent them.


----------



## framed (Mar 18, 2013)

ayatollah said:


> _But I don't think you actually mean neoliberalist ideology when you cite the "Right winning intellectually, do you? You mean Far Right neo-fascist ideas._


 
And there begins your confusion and complete misreading of past posts and analysis.


----------



## malatesta32 (Mar 19, 2013)

audiotech said:


> If you decide on a curry in Brick Lane be aware of the chilies served in separate side-dishes - they're very hot!!! Even the green ones.


 
salt beef bagel. unbelievable.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Mar 20, 2013)

framed said:


> And there begins your confusion and complete misreading of past posts and analysis.


 
If only it were that simple.

Take his second last paragraph for example - in it he poses more than a dozen questions - many of which he then answers in a conversation with himself while peppering the texts with supporting "quotes" from IWCA supporters which he has simply made up.

From there as a result of employing this unique compound method he hugs himself in excitement (!!!) probably not dissimilar to the type of buzz you might get from cheating at Solitaire, when arriving at conclusions within kissing distance of the amusingly unhinged 'Strasserite' label tacked to the iWCA's door some time back, by a fellow traveller currently on leave of absence.

Not sure how much track there can actually be to the right of the likes of _Der Sturmer _but hang about a month or so for his next meticiously researched missive and I'm sure we will find out.


----------



## bignose1 (Mar 20, 2013)

Joe Reilly said:


> If only it were that simple.
> 
> Take his second last paragraph for example - in it he poses more than a dozen questions - many of which he then answers in a conversation with himself while peppering the texts with supporting "quotes" from IWCA supporters which he has simply made up.
> 
> ...


 
Dick


----------



## framed (Mar 20, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> Dick


 
It's more than apparent from your previous interventions, as well as the above insult, that your input here is diversionary and deliberately destructive.

Why not just fuck off and let the adults have their discussion?


----------



## Joe Reilly (Mar 20, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> Dick


 
Turpin? Whittington? Van Dyke?


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## manny-p (Mar 20, 2013)

the phrase "kiss and make up" springs to mind lads.


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## malatesta32 (Mar 21, 2013)

or even 'let it lie.'


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## bignose1 (Mar 21, 2013)

Joe Reilly said:


> Turpin? Whittington? Van Dyke?


Head


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## bignose1 (Mar 21, 2013)

framed said:


> It's more than apparent from your previous interventions, as well as the above insult, that your input here is diversionary and deliberately destructive.
> 
> Why not just fuck off and let the adults have their discussion?


Now you really look stupid...'why not fuck offf and let the adults have their discussion' Well thats a 'compliment' if I ever saw one. Listen go back look at your/theyre posts on here for 'pleasantries' ...and I wont bring up the RA forum 2003 will I.

OShea makes a snide remark at a time when Id made a genuine attempt to back away from all this shite, mainly for the sake of others on this thread. Which meant a decent break...maybe LiamO feels the same. But oh no he cant resist a dig ..a snipe an insult. So stop kissing his arse for a minute and have a word with him maybees. Behaviour like his, is 'dickish'. Not political.


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## Joe Reilly (Mar 21, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> I wont bring up the RA forum 2003 will I.


 
Bring it up. You were called on this before and not too long ago either. And buckled. So don't for a moment think that because you have taken time off you can now do a re-thread on all your old smears and start afresh.


----------



## bignose1 (Mar 21, 2013)

Joe Reilly said:


> Bring it up. You were called on this before and not too long ago either. And buckled. So don't for a moment think that because you have taken time off you can now do a re-thread on all your old smears and start afresh.


 
I wish I could get it from the net as it would prove you to be the blustering fraud you are.Fucking buckled my arse. You bring up your shite I reply...it goes ping pong ping pong and it gets tiresome for a lot of people. You then re emerge because you must be feeling deprived and get it going all again. its simple really. You have a massive ego and shit politics. End of.


----------



## TopCat (Mar 21, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> I wish I could get it from the net as it would prove you to be the blustering fraud you are.Fucking buckled my arse. You bring up your shite I reply...it goes ping pong ping pong and it gets tiresome for a lot of people. You then re emerge because you must be feeling deprived and get it going all again. its simple really. You have a massive ego and shit politics. End of.


I think any reasonable sentient being who read the thread would disagree with you strongly on this. Do Searchlight teach their operatives how to divert discussion, smear opponents, refuse to answer simple questions and so on?


----------



## Joe Reilly (Mar 21, 2013)

TopCat said:


> I think any reasonable sentient being who read the thread would disagree with you strongly on this. Do Searchlight teach their operatives how to divert discussion, smear opponents, refuse to answer simple questions and so on?


 
Nearly 3 years ago now, when the very determined campaign to deter FP from publishing BTF was in full flow particularly on the Indymedia thread, I wandered over to Stormfront for some reason or other and was struck by the similarity in tone of the debates on there.

It was not just that debate was personalised in a way that will be all too familiar to veterans of Indymedia, and latterly this thread, but in some cases there was regualr use of identical phrasing. 'You vile pervert' and so on.

Now it might have been sheer coincidence.

But one thing that is certain: the tactics employed by the likes of Searchlight against their opponents on the Right are identical to the tactics employed against their opponents on the Left. Ask Larry O' Hara.

In other words if they are succesfully 'diverting discussion and smearing opponents' on Stormfront, it would be remiss of them not to be active on other forums of interest too.


----------



## bignose1 (Mar 21, 2013)

TopCat said:


> I think any reasonable sentient being who read the thread would disagree with you strongly on this. Do Searchlight teach their operatives how to divert discussion, smear opponents, refuse to answer simple questions and so on?


Must have been a slow day today TC.....Searchlight operatives...here we go again...keep it up its......bonkers time......who needs Davey Icke


----------



## bignose1 (Mar 21, 2013)

Joe Reilly said:


> Nearly 3 years ago now, when the very determined campaign to deter FP from publishing BTF was in full flow particularly on the Indymedia thread, I wandered over to Stormfront for some reason or other and was struck by the similarity in tone of the debates on there.
> 
> It was not just that debate was personalised in a way that will be all too familiar to veterans of Indymedia, and latterly this thread, but in some cases there was regualr use of identical phrasing. 'You vile pervert' and so on.
> 
> ...


 
And Mr OShea......personalised .......are you for real...you spent over a decade attacking one man in particular in the vilest way. Yes go back 10 years ago to your very own forum and that makes Indymedia look like a Ladybird kids book. Shameful period. I think I came out of that reasonably well considering the highly personalised shite alerting the fash to my workplace and general whereabouts.....but it convinced me that you and your ilk were finished. Very suss politics. And potentially dangerous at one time...but now you have no inluence...accept it your over.


----------



## framed (Mar 22, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> I wish I could get it from the net as it would prove you to be the blustering fraud you are.Fucking buckled my arse. You bring up your shite I reply...it goes ping pong ping pong and it gets tiresome for a lot of people. You then re emerge because you must be feeling deprived and get it going all again. its simple really. You have a massive ego and shit politics. End of.


 
This stinks. The above description of the thread is the complete reversal of what has actually been going on. You attribute your own tactics to your opponents and then play the victim. It's either a brilliantly thought out piece of deliberate projection, or it's seriously bonkers-in-the-nut lunacy...

I probably joined this thread about halfway through and since then I've observed with some curiosity how you have regularly used insults, smears, lies and complete irrelevancies in an attempt to derail, divert and destruct any meaningful discussion on the thread.

I asked you a while back to supply the evidence from the Red Action forum that you keep going on about after you had implied that you had hard copy print-outs of it. You have relied on the ignorance of others here to advance an argument that you can supply no evidence for, that you and Dave were the subjects of bullying tactics by Red Action members. As I recall it, most of the discussion on the forum around the No Retreat book was not dissimilar and no more or less personal than the discussion that has taken place around it on this thread. If you cannot supply the evidence that you constantly keep referencing then you have no case against JR, Demu, or anyone else. It doesn't exist and it is you and *ONLY YOU* who can quote from this non-existent material. Everyone else here who was a regular on the RA forum would dispute your allegations, so going simply on the weight of the evidence presented so far, you've lost mate.

Going back over some of the old stories and actions has been good on this thread imho. There's also a discussion to be had about the future of anti-fascist and working class politics in here somewhere, but you don't seem to have any interest in it. You appear to have an obsession with certain Red Action members and are determined to settle old scores in an entirely inappropriate public space like Urban.

It's embarrassing.


----------



## bignose1 (Mar 22, 2013)

framed said:


> This stinks. The above description of the thread is the complete reversal of what has actually been going on. You attribute your own tactics to your opponents and then play the victim. It's either a brilliantly thought out piece of deliberate projection, or it's seriously bonkers-in-the-nut lunacy...
> 
> I probably joined this thread about halfway through and since then I've observed with some curiosity how you have regularly used insults, smears, lies and complete irrelevancies in an attempt to derail, divert and destruct any meaningful discussion on the thread.
> 
> ...


 
Why do you always play the policeman of the forum...let people speak for themselves....and whose playing the victim here.....??

For the umpteenth time of saying... the old RA forum stuff appears not to be available now...but it was until recently. The hard copy may be around but as I have mentioned on here a few months ago just before I got made redundant I had a big clear out which Redstorm, Malatesta and even LOH can attest to. And I used the industrial shredder at work to get rid off stuff and declutter. So although Ive had a little mooch about ...in between more responsible things like getting another job and looking after ill relatives, I havnt been able to come across it. If I do...fucking manna...and I would love to....quote Kevin keegan .

You know Im not bonkers even my psychiatrist knows that....but you lot can drive people towards madness. Like a cult you dig around picking up on little things then speaking for the whole forum....you believe are on your side. The RA forum circa 2003 was a shitty dirty little smear sheet that would put even Goebells to shame..or Strasser(sic) for that matter.

The discussion regards the future of anti fascism will be had but me personally wouldn't touch RA with a shitty stick. Reading the stuff you write makes my flesh creep. You appeal is to an audience already looking for the same scapegoats as the far right...seriously. Very disturbing when you get into that sort of territory.

When you roll out all this Searchlight stuff you know I parted company in 1994 in fact theres some people on here who have seen the correspondence that was around that time. If I could trust you to be discreet with it Id show you. But then youd probably say its more Searchlight dirty tricks.

This isnt a question of winning or losing..its not a fucking game nor is it about settling old scores. Its about in my case....using this forum to have a right of reply to a clique who use worn out...deeply personal and insulting methods to justify there ever decreasing influence. Its a tactic which has failed. Dont think everyone on here is behind you..Im sure I piss them off too but dont think you have a right to the moral high ground using the bonkers argument or more evident...the Searchlight slimy black ops bollox.

I cant really get away from this but whenever I do ...to concentrate on matters that are more pressing..tell Joe that he needs to maybe do the same...his almost pathological baiting of me is perhaps the most sad part of this sorry affair.


----------



## ayatollah (Mar 22, 2013)

Joe Reilly said:


> You might want to edit your post it is I suspect confused/confusing enough already.


 
I'll take that utterly pathetic , intellectually barren,   response as yet another  "No" then.   As in "No,  we're not prepared to be up front about what is in our opinion so "innovative" about  Far Right policy and analysis ".  A really, really,  piss poor and all too predictable "reply"  by you and your little support group  coterie of cronies, Joe.

Nothing confused or confusing at all of course about my earlier post, or the questions repeatedly asked of you and  your usual IWCA cronies.   I, and many others, have repeatedly asked you and your chums, across many Urban threads, to be specific about what actual hard  POLICIES contained within either the Neoliberal, or Far Right neo fascist, analysis and agendas ,you recommend the Left should adopt to match the Right's claimed" dynamism", re  your apparent approval of the ghastly self serving opportunist  Labourite reformist , Owen Jones', claim that :

"the Right been winning intellectually it has (including fascism proper) been adapting strategically and tactically too".

The reply is always silence. So once again none of the (undeclared) IWCA co-thinkers/mutual support group posters , are prepared to be honestly  up front with their current day politics, by getting down to the nitty gritty of what "dynamic, innovative, Far Right policies and strategies" they think  the "Left" would have to adopt "on the local community landings" and in  the local electoral struggle, to win the approval of themselves, and you suggest, the "working class".

I'm not surprised you aren't prepared to go beyond generalities  , because the implications of your continual  lauding of the , entirely bogus, claimed "innovation" of  "the Right" are very distasteful indeed -  essentially involving a recommendation to the left to make a wide range of concessions to the petty racism and cultural chauvinism prevalent in sections of the white working class, behind a self-justifying  smokescreen of support for " real pro working class politics" as against the dishonest "straw man" euphemisms of  "multiculturalism" or "identity politics".


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Mar 22, 2013)

Ayatollah - do you think the right haven't been winning intellectually (and practically for that matter)? Or am I misreading you?

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## Joe Reilly (Mar 22, 2013)

ayatollah said:


> I
> 
> Nothing confused or confusing at all of course about my earlier post, or the questions repeatedly asked of you and your usual IWCA cronies. I, and many others, have repeatedly asked you and your chums, across many Urban threads, to be specific about what actual hard POLICIES contained within either the Neoliberal, or Far Right neo fascist, analysis and agendas ,you recommend the Left should adopt to match the Right's claimed" dynamism", re your apparent approval of the ghastly self serving opportunist Labourite reformist , Owen Jones', claim that :
> 
> "the Right been winning intellectually it has (including fascism proper) been adapting strategically and tactically too"


 
First off IWCA supporters have been on this forum for a over a decade and as far as I'm aware are yet to duck a question yet. Secondly many of the people who support the iWCA strategy on here are not known to each other at all. To suggest otherwise is to feed off or into the 'clique' argument promoted by Purbick/Tilzey which is the road to madness.

Thirdly, while it does seem rather odd to have to offer such a rebuttal after all this time, the reality is no one associated with the IWCA has ever recomended the Left 'adopt' neo liberal or neo-fascist agendas - what the IWCA has said _ad nauseam,_ is that their is a responsibility to offer a progressive _alternative_ _to them_ in working class communities.

Failure to do that means either backing Labour (Hope not Hate/UAF) or allowing the far-right a free run.

What is so difficult about that you are apparently unable to grasp?

Perhaps the key to your wilful confusion is that you seem unable to detach any objective analysis of a political opponent such as the BNP or UKIP from _approval_ of them.

For example because I quoted Owen Jones (the quote you attribute to Owen Jones is actually from me btw)
you assume I approve of his politics when in fact all I approve of his public acknowledgment of someting the IWCA itself came to terms with almost two decades earlier.
To me that is a sign others are catching up.
Simple as that.

Finally it is not actually the 'petty prejudices and cultural chavunism _of_ the white working class" that is preventing progress but rather the "petty prejudices and cultural chavunism" demonstrated by the Left in general _toward_ the entire working class - the fear of political contamination - of which you are an exemplar, which is the bigger barrier to any serious strategic review.


----------



## framed (Mar 22, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> Why do you always play the policeman of the forum...let people speak for themselves....and whose playing the victim here.....??


 
You constantly play the victim here Steve, it's always about you and what the bad boys from Red Action are alleged to have done to you and Dave, but please go right ahead and continue to say whatever you like mate. IMHO you are only embarrassing yourself when you resort to insults, lies and smears rather than rational debate, it's exactly the same tactic that you continually accuse Red Action members of using. It's not about policing the discussion, but if you can't take a bit of friendly and well meant advice when you go off on one, so be it. Carry on regardless.



bignose1 said:


> For the umpteenth time of saying... the old RA forum stuff appears not to be available now...but it was until recently. The hard copy may be around but as I have mentioned on here a few months ago just before I got made redundant I had a big clear out which Redstorm, Malatesta and even LOH can attest to. And I used the industrial shredder at work to get rid off stuff and declutter. So although Ive had a little mooch about ...in between more responsible things like getting another job and looking after ill relatives, I havnt been able to come across it. If I do...fucking manna...and I would love to....quote Kevin keegan .


 
Keegan didn't emerge from that episode with any particular honour though, did he? As I said, I don't recall the discussion on the old RA forum as being any sharper, or any more personalised than the debate here. In fact, the RA forum was more strictly moderated than Urban and I'd say that it was actually less vitriolic and abusive than some of the stuff that I've read on here and before that on Indymedia.



bignose1 said:


> You know Im not bonkers even my psychiatrist knows that....but you lot can drive people towards madness. Like a cult you dig around picking up on little things then speaking for the whole forum....you believe are on your side. The RA forum circa 2003 was a shitty dirty little smear sheet that would put even Goebells to shame..or Strasser(sic) for that matter.


 

Can you cite any other threads or articles from the old RA forum, or even the new Red Action site - aside from anything about No Retreat - that would back up your contention that, "_The RA forum circa 2003 was a shitty dirty little smear sheet that would put even Goebells to shame..or Strasser(sic) for that matter." _*? * I can assure you that you're not the only one looking for 'manna from heaven' from the old RA forum. I have been trying everything I know technically to recover the database of the RA forum, or at least a cache of it, because I believe that your various allegations would be disproven were it to be recovered.



bignose1 said:


> The discussion regards the future of anti fascism will be had but me personally wouldn't touch RA with a shitty stick. Reading the stuff you write makes my flesh creep. You appeal is to an audience already looking for the same scapegoats as the far right...seriously. Very disturbing when you get into that sort of territory.


 

Again, I would ask you to provide evidence rather than personal opinion to back up the above allegations.



bignose1 said:


> When you roll out all this Searchlight stuff you know I parted company in 1994 in fact theres some people on here who have seen the correspondence that was around that time. If I could trust you to be discreet with it Id show you. But then youd probably say its more Searchlight dirty tricks.


 

More assumptions. No, I didn't know that you parted company with Searchlight in 1994, but as you've said it enough times on this thread I certainly know now. It's something else that we'll have to take your word on... It's not necessary to provide personal letters imho, but some general pointers as to your reasons for the disassociation might be helpful. Like others, I always assumed that you were rock solid with Searchlight, so what precisely was it that led to your disaffection?



bignose1 said:


> This isnt a question of winning or losing..its not a fucking game nor is it about settling old scores. Its about in my case....using this forum to have a right of reply to a clique who use worn out...deeply personal and insulting methods to justify there ever decreasing influence. Its a tactic which has failed. Dont think everyone on here is behind you..Im sure I piss them off too but dont think you have a right to the moral high ground using the bonkers argument or more evident...the Searchlight slimy black ops bollox.


 

If you use an open forum as a 'right of reply' then it's fairly inevitable that your version of events will continue to be challenged... and so it goes on. As I said before, there's no end to it, but you seem quite happy with the arrangement. In fact, you appear to thrive on it. That's why I used the _'you've lost mate'_ phrase, because from what I can see you have locked yourself into a 'game' here that is unwinnable without the necessary evidence to back it up.



bignose1 said:


> I cant really get away from this but whenever I do ...to concentrate on matters that are more pressing..tell Joe that he needs to maybe do the same...his almost pathological baiting of me is perhaps the most sad part of this sorry affair.


 
Joe, stop being a pathological baiter please.  There, done it.


----------



## bignose1 (Mar 23, 2013)

framed said:


> You constantly play the victim here Steve, it's always about you and what the bad boys from Red Action are alleged to have done to you and Dave, but please go right ahead and continue to say whatever you like mate. IMHO you are only embarrassing yourself when you resort to insults, lies and smears rather than rational debate, it's exactly the same tactic that you continually accuse Red Action members of using. It's not about policing the discussion, but if you can't take a bit of friendly and well meant advice when you go off on one, so be it. Carry on regardless.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## framed (Mar 23, 2013)

And?


----------



## bignose1 (Mar 23, 2013)

Joe Reilly said:


> First off IWCA supporters have been on this forum for a over a decade and as far as I'm aware are yet to duck a question yet. Secondly many of the people who support the iWCA strategy on here are not known to each other at all. To suggest otherwise is to feed off or into the 'clique' argument promoted by Purbick/Tilzey which is the road to madness.
> 
> Thirdly, while it does seem rather odd to have to offer such a rebuttal after all this time, the reality is no one associated with the IWCA has ever recomended the Left 'adopt' neo liberal or neo-fascist agendas - what the IWCA has said _ad nauseam,_ is that their is a responsibility to offer a progressive _alternative_ _to them_ in working class communities.
> 
> ...


 
Utter babble...answer the guy ffs


----------



## bignose1 (Mar 23, 2013)

framed said:


> You constantly play the victim here Steve, it's always about you and what the bad boys from Red Action are alleged to have done to you and Dave, but please go right ahead and continue to say whatever you like mate. IMHO you are only embarrassing yourself when you resort to insults, lies and smears rather than rational debate, it's exactly the same tactic that you continually accuse Red Action members of using. It's not about policing the discussion, but if you can't take a bit of friendly and well meant advice when you go off on one, so be it. Carry on regardless.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Piss poor Stevie...try harder...


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 23, 2013)

what a weekend , snow , freezing winds, no Premier league football and this thread!


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## Joe Reilly (Mar 23, 2013)

Joe Reilly said:


> Yes indeed, you have expressed your disagreement with IWCA politic's or rather what you yourself singularly decided were iWCA politics - without - needless to say without ever quoting the IWCA on any IWCA policies.
> 
> But be that as it may, your chief groan, oft repeated is that the IWCA is 'non-socialist'.
> 
> ...


 
*Interesting result from the Gooshay's ward in Havering. UKIP took the seat. Further evidence that UKIP is now capitalising on the spade work done by the BNP who were elected there in the mid-2000's. 

Their combined vote was just less than 50%. 

One consequjence of the UKIP surge is that shifting the entire centre to the right with immigration again centre stage nationally.

The ploy of presenting UKIP as the 'good Nazi' dosen't look so clever now does it?

Ps in 2002 an IWCA pilot scheme took 800 votes in the same ward. It does suggest that the working class are hungry for change - any change - as long as it appears credible and sympathetic which of course rules the likes of Tusc out - on both counts.


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## malatesta32 (Mar 23, 2013)

think its time for a UKIP thread. people need to be aware of this latest turn. have we had one yet?


----------



## shifting gears (Mar 23, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> think its time for a UKIP thread. people need to be aware of this latest turn. have we had one yet?



Would this fit the bill?
http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/ukip-why-are-they-gaining-support.302167/


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## bignose1 (Mar 23, 2013)

Ive just been re-reading some of my posts. Why am I defending myself...or offering to show evidence...? None of them worry me in any way..madness...stop it. They doom themselves. 

ps Off to Spain later today...just a quick trip...dont fret Joe.


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## The39thStep (Mar 23, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> Ive just been re-reading some of my posts. Why am I defending myself...or offering to show evidence...? None of them worry me in any way..madness...stop it. They doom themselves.
> 
> ps Off to Spain later today...just a quick trip...dont fret Joe.


 
went two weeks ago. It was sleet and snow and I was halfway between Barca and Valencia on the coast. The sunshine was the day after Madrid knocked out man Utd!


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## bignose1 (Mar 23, 2013)

The39thStep said:


> went two weeks ago. It was sleet and snow and I was halfway between Barca and Valencia on the coast. The sunshine was the day after Madrid knocked out man Utd!


 
Ha ha.....mind you Ive got a feeling were on course for City in the semis....and on course to win the league by 20 plus points....you have your fun now Ill save mine for later.


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## bignose1 (Mar 23, 2013)

The39thStep said:


> went two weeks ago. It was sleet and snow and I was ''halfway between Barca and Valencia on the coast''. The sunshine was the day after Madrid knocked out man Utd!


Thats Sitges isnt it...........


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## malatesta32 (Mar 23, 2013)

excellent, have a great time!


----------



## malatesta32 (Mar 23, 2013)

shifting gears said:


> Would this fit the bill?
> http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/ukip-why-are-they-gaining-support.302167/


 
ah, yes that may just be ticketyboo!


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## The39thStep (Mar 23, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> Ha ha.....mind you Ive got a feeling were on course for City in the semis....and on course to win the league by 20 plus points....you have your fun now Ill save mine for later.


 
David DeGea's stud saved you at OT , you won't be as lucky this time. Not Sitges , Vinaros.


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## bignose1 (Mar 23, 2013)

The39thStep said:


> David DeGea's stud saved you at OT , you won't be as lucky this time. Not Sitges , Vinaros.


 
Should have been done and dusted at Old T well before that save.....

....Its just got a double for us all over so as to rub it into the bitters......that NO last year wasn't the beginning of an 'era' for you.


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## Joe Reilly (Mar 23, 2013)

HOPE not hate takes a position on UKIP


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## The39thStep (Mar 23, 2013)

Looks like our tactic of calling for a vote for UKIP to keep out the BNP  is under threat!


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## Joe Reilly (Mar 23, 2013)

The39thStep said:


> Looks like our tactic of calling for a vote for UKIP to keep out the BNP is under threat!


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## framed (Mar 23, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> Piss poor Stevie...try harder...


 
I'll repeat this part, maybe you can offer an answer rather than give it marks out of ten?

_It's not necessary to provide personal letters imho, but some general pointers as to your reasons for the disassociation might be helpful. Like others, I always assumed that you were rock solid with Searchlight, so what precisely was it that led to your disaffection?_


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## TopCat (Mar 23, 2013)

Hell will freeze before a straightforward and honest answer is provided to that one.


----------



## TopCat (Mar 23, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> Ive just been re-reading some of my posts. Why am I defending myself...or offering to show evidence...? None of them worry me in any way..madness...stop it. They doom themselves.
> 
> ps Off to Spain later today...just a quick trip...dont fret Joe.


Because even you must realise that a simple re reading of this thread shows you to be a disingenuous Searchlight asset.


----------



## framed (Mar 23, 2013)

Joe Reilly said:


> HOPE not hate takes a position on UKIP


 

*"HOPE not hate operates on a platform of zero tolerance towards political and cultural extremism..." *


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## Joe Reilly (Mar 23, 2013)

framed said:


> *"HOPE not hate operates on a platform of zero tolerance towards political and cultural extremism..." *


 
from left or right


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## framed (Mar 24, 2013)

Joe Reilly said:


> from left or right


 
Searchlight Mk2 ?


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## bignose1 (Mar 24, 2013)

framed said:


> I'll repeat this part, maybe you can offer an answer rather than give it marks out of ten?
> 
> _It's not necessary to provide personal letters imho, but some general pointers as to your reasons for the disassociation might be helpful. Like others, I always assumed that you were rock solid with Searchlight, so what precisely was it that led to your disaffection?_


When you do an A-Z of why people have found issue with you ....then Ill attend your online kangaroo court. My ego apart who do YOU think you are.....I fucking laff at this situation sometimes......that its even got this far.


----------



## bignose1 (Mar 24, 2013)

Youve given enough wank material to the fash already,,,you started it in 2003.....why should I uneccessariily give them any more. If as you suggest Im bonkers then just believe that and then fuck off and do something useful. The O'Shea fan club is going to be dissapointed.


----------



## bignose1 (Mar 24, 2013)

TopCat said:


> Hell will freeze before a straightforward and honest answer is provided to that one.


You are a fuckwit...have you ever contributed anything useful on this thread apart from all this Searclight bollox......no.......another embarrassing O'Shea cronie...perhaps the worst type as you just follow the others like a lappy dog. Just look back at your posts on this thread. Excruciatingly piss poor.


----------



## bignose1 (Mar 24, 2013)

TopCat said:


> Because even you must realise that a simple re reading of this thread shows you to be a disingenuous Searchlight asset.


Look at what your posting....again its fucking wanky big words mixed the same old shite...asset...operative.....agent...thing is you know the lingo so well youre probably at it yerself.


----------



## TopCat (Mar 24, 2013)

You can't defend yourself at all as it's (for you) embarrassingly clear what your motives are for being on this thread and indeed being involved with militant anti fascism in the past. Your Gables' boy.


----------



## bignose1 (Mar 24, 2013)

TopCat said:


> You can't defend yourself at all as it's (for you) embarrassingly clear what your motives are for being on this thread and indeed being involved with militant anti fascism in the past. Your Gables' boy.


Your the fucking embarrassment..someone who is obviously on the loony side of politics with nothing absolutely nothing to add to any debate apart from lies and deceit....and this bizarre juvenile stalking. Its so pathetic and unfortunately for everyone on here, likely to continue. Garys boy.


----------



## bignose1 (Mar 24, 2013)

TopCat said:


> You can't defend yourself at all as it's (for you) embarrassingly clear what your motives are for being on this thread and indeed being involved with militant anti fascism in the past. Your Gables' boy.


 
My motives in the past...my oh my you are a fucking prick.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Mar 24, 2013)

TopCat said:


> You can't defend yourself at all as it's (for you) embarrassingly clear what your motives are for being on this thread and indeed being involved with militant anti fascism in the past. Your Gables' boy.


 
When you think about it, taking into account the campaign started with the thread on Indymedia (May 2010) which means that Tilzey has now been at it for the best part of 3 years.

In all that time the only original political contribution he has made is to accuse the IWCA of being Strasserite.

Of the many, many, hundreds of posts since, it is safe to say that the overwhelming majority revolved around personal slander or individual anti-fascists (who he delighted in naming).

He routinely claims he is on here to 'defend himself' but in actual fact was it not for the need to occassionally rebut some ridiculous invention or other, his name would likely never come up at all.
Which given his vaunting self-regard, may of course be a problem in itself, who knows.

But as things stand, the greatest damage to his reputation, such as it is, is self-inflicted, as a result of his being repeatedly caught out in his habitual lying.

The truth is despite his addiction to his status as 'celebrity anti-fascist' he was never more than a minor figure within Searchlight and utterly peripheral in terms of militant anti-fascism.
Yet in spite of this limited role he somehow managed to get himself expelled from Manchester AFA - twice. Not all that hard to imagine though now is it?
It was Hann that recruited him, expelled him, and again recruited him on the q.t.

As for Hann, was it not for their spoiler of a book, the mugging incident would likely never have been mentioned in BTF at all - and as it was the whole tawdry affair was dealt with in a couple of pages anyway.

Some argue that there is a definite OCD element in the "Your Mum! ..." style heckling and that 'Steve Tilzey half man - half lie!' is more mad than bad, and thus more to be pitied than scolded.

'Nuttier than squirrel shit' it has to be admitted also has it's less sympathetic supporters.

But against this is the pivotal role he played in the well orchestrated campaign to intimidate FP into dropping BTF - which remember was just a single vote from succeeding - so on balance the motivation for his unceasing disparaging of militant anti-fascists and by extension militant anti-fascism itself, cannot, it must be concluded, be anything other than political.

Given that Nick Lowles is on the record in describing him as 'a good friend' says more about what H not H ('zero policy toward political extremism') is actually about, than any intricately researched Larry O' Hara essay (heartily recommended btw) ever could. O@Har


----------



## framed (Mar 24, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> When you do an A-Z of why people have found issue with you ....then Ill attend your online kangaroo court. My ego apart who do YOU think you are.....I fucking laff at this situation sometimes......that its even got this far.


 
As you seem to know everything about everyone here, why don't you _"do an A-Z"_ for us? Go ahead, you've attacked, smeared and lied about almost everyone else on this thread that's been associated with Red Action. Please, be my guest...

You introduced the_ "I left Searchlight in 1994..."_ point and you continually refer back to it as if it was common knowledge. Well, it wasn't and I am asking you what were your reasons for parting company with Searchlight?

I'm hearing rumours of a turn towards militant Irish republicanism by you, which, if true, I would find to be very curious indeed, because less than two years before that you told me that you preferred to steer clear of Irish politics and concentrate exclusively on anti-fascism, for reasons that I respected at the time.


----------



## bignose1 (Mar 24, 2013)

framed said:


> As you seem to know everything about everyone here, why don't you _"do an A-Z"_ for us? Go ahead, you've attacked, smeared and lied about almost everyone else on this thread that's been associated with Red Action. Please, be my guest...
> 
> You introduced the_ "I left Searchlight in 1994..."_ point and you continually refer back to it as if it was common knowledge. Well, it wasn't and I am asking you what were your reasons for parting company with Searchlight?
> 
> I'm hearing rumours of a turn towards militant Irish republicanism by you, which, if true, I would find to be very curious indeed, because less than two years before that you told me that you preferred to steer clear of Irish politics and concentrate exclusively on anti-fascism, for reasons that I respected at the time.


 
For those people that really matter it was common knowledge( the searchlight stuff)..for you tittle tatlers it really is was none of your business so therefore you dont/didnt need to know....Re militant Irish republicanism...I think theres mischief making...but if I was so what....But you have committed a serious no no in saying this....its called grassing in any ones book and youve now overstepped the mark. No coming back from that.

Your and your associates smeared threatened and ostracised people who disagreed with you...you didnt have it all your own way and I hear you got put in your place a few times but this isnt about dick swinging....I stick by everything Ive said about the 2003 Red Action forum being a cesspit of lies threats and scorn. I wish you all the luck trying to recover any caches of that material. As I dont trust you not to fuck about with it once you find it, I wont hold my breath.

Ps Coming from you how ironic. And fucking disgraceful behaviour.


----------



## framed (Mar 24, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> For those people that really matter it was common knowledge( the searchlight stuff)..for you tittle tatlers it really is was none of your business so therefore you dont/didnt need to know....Re militant Irish republicanism...I think theres mischief making...but if I was so what....But you have committed a serious no no in saying this....its called grassing in any ones book and youve now overstepped the mark. No coming back from that.


 
I'll take that as a 'yes' then. How very peculiar that not so long after you supposedly _'left Searchlight in 1994'_ (and not so long after Pat Hayes was sent down for his part in the IRA's campaign in Britain) that you should gravitate towards militant republicanism.

_"Grassing"_, _"overstepped the mark"_, _"No coming back"_....

Oh, really? Is that a threat? What you gonna do about it Steve, firebomb me? 

I still have comrades and friends in Ireland who are already aware of you and asking the same questions btw.

Consider yourself and your associates to be firmly in the frame for anything that might happen as a result of this exchange.



bignose1 said:


> Your and your associates smeared threatened and ostracised people who disagreed with you...you didnt have it all your own way and I hear you got put in your place a few times but this isnt about dick swinging....I stick by everything Ive said about the 2003 Red Action forum being a cesspit of lies threats and scorn. I wish you all the luck trying to recover any caches of that material. As I dont trust you not to fuck about with it once you find it, I wont hold my breath.
> 
> Ps Coming from you how ironic. And fucking disgraceful behaviour.


 
Put up or shut up with the Red Action forum circa 2003. Not a single person here, either for or against Red Action has corroborated anything you've said regarding the old forum. The only person smearing and 'grassing' people up here is YOU, constantly and pathologically.

The 'disgraceful behaviour' is whatever game you've been playing since 'leaving Searchlight'. Are you still working for Gerry, or is it to a higher authority that you answer now?


----------



## bignose1 (Mar 24, 2013)

framed said:


> I'll take that as a 'yes' then. How very peculiar that not so long after you supposedly _'left Searchlight in 1994'_ (and not so long after Pat Hayes was sent down for his part in the IRA's campaign in Britain) that you should gravitate towards militant republicanism.
> 
> _"Grassing"_, _"overstepped the mark"_, _"No coming back"_....
> 
> ...


 
See youre at it again...very strange that you should continue with this militant irish stuff...and now you put me in the frame as a police spy. Well for me it sums you up...you smear someone as a spook then pretend that you are now in some sort of peril. That isnt my style Steven. Im not the sort of cunt that operates on that level. Why do yo introduce this bizarre logic. And what am I in the frame for. Its another delusion. Whoevers been feeding you this shit then theyre playing with your dick Steve...Ive done/felt nothing different in my overall political outlook that includes Ireland since day one so I would take it back to your tittle tatler and tell him to wank over someone else.
Its strange how you introduce this now...its a desperate tactic...smear someone with irish republicanism then insinuate they are a grass...very very poor and my long standing friends over there will also pick up on what you say and come to the same conclusion which I may say will be that of those who point the finger...you know the rest.


----------



## framed (Mar 24, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> See youre at it again...very strange that you should continue with this militant irish stuff...and now you put me in the frame as a police spy. Well for me it sums you up...you smear someone as a spook then pretend that you are now in some sort of peril.


 
Steve, isn't that what you've been doing yourself for much of this thread, going on about Red Action threats and intimidation, gangsters and 'crews'?



bignose1 said:


> That isnt my style Steven. Im not the sort of cunt that operates on that level. Why do yo introduce this bizarre logic. And what am I in the frame for. Its another delusion. Whoevers been feeding you this shit then theyre playing with your dick Steve...Ive done/felt nothing different in my overall political outlook that includes Ireland since day one so I would take it back to your tittle tatler and tell him to wank over someone else.


 
My logic may well be out on this and I will hold my hands up and apologise for it, if it is. I was really surprised to hear of the alleged political associations and considering the way you've gone on about RA's 'gangster associations' here I was flabbergasted that you would have any association with the outfit in question.



bignose1 said:


> Its strange how you introduce this now...its a desperate tactic...smear someone with irish republicanism then insinuate they are a grass...very very poor and my long standing friends over there will also pick up on what you say and come to the same conclusion which I may say will be that of those who point the finger...you know the rest.


 
Do you read your own posts? You called me a grass too. I simply returned the serve. There's no strangeness in the timing and no tactics involved, it's something that I was asked about recently and I actually said to the person concerned that I would be really surprised if it were true.

Irish republicanism isn't a 'smear' Steve, I'm a republican myself.

As for finger pointers, FFS man! Read back some of yer own posts. 

BTW, I am happy to talk to you anytime directly about any of this stuff. I got extremly pissed off with your posts this week, probably for the first time in the thread, because I could not see anything constructive or political in any of them, just insults.


----------



## TopCat (Mar 25, 2013)

The smell coming from bignose points in one direction.


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## malatesta32 (Mar 29, 2013)

who wrote the 'if you cannot smash them when they are weak, how can you smash them when they are strong?' quote. i am sure its in BTF but unsure if its a quote or an original phrase. i seem to be using it a lot at the moment.


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## love detective (Mar 29, 2013)

It's from Red Action issue number 52, and quoted in BTF



> If groups like the NF or Blood & Honour are not confronted, how can they be beaten? If you cannot beat them when they are weak, how can you hope to defeat them when they are strong?” And “if the Left is not strong enough or determined enough to defeat them, how is it even possible to even talk of confronting the State?


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## framed (Mar 29, 2013)

Sounds like a Joe Reilly quote to me...


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## malatesta32 (Mar 30, 2013)

grand. thanks loads. it seems extremely appropriate at this moment.


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## The39thStep (Mar 30, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> grand. thanks loads. it seems extremely appropriate at this moment.


 
why?


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## malatesta32 (Mar 30, 2013)

because the EDL are in terminal decline now and many have left and are bitter towards tommy fucking it up and milking em dry. from 2,000 to 20 in cambridge, 350 for national in MCR. the annual humiliation in brighton is coming which is gonna be faced with mighty wrath. the infidels and their eejits have swung further to the right but are annoying rather than any threat. the infidels are so weak they havent called a demo for ages as they cant sustain it. however, the fash in the north east are still active and it will be interesting to see how sunderland goes today. they have never been weaker or more fragmented.


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## Red Storm (Apr 5, 2013)

E. Stampton is writing a book apparently. 

I found a pretty good website called the Glory Days of R.A.C. Hard to navigate but interesting pics. 

www. gloryrac .blogspot .com


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## audiotech (Apr 5, 2013)

I've heard Tommy's giving his full support to UKIP, which will put cousin Kev in a mood, considering his position in the BFP. Mind you does that org still exist?


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## Red Storm (Apr 5, 2013)

audiotech said:


> I've heard Tommy's giving his full support to UKIP, which will put cousin Kev in a mood, considering his position in the BFP. Mind you does that org still exist?


 

I think it's folded.

EDL support for UKIP does UKIP some good, but I think they'll eschew it because it's not suit and tie enough.


----------



## audiotech (Apr 5, 2013)

Red Storm said:


> E. Stampton is writing a book apparently.
> 
> I found a pretty good website called the Glory Days of R.A.C. Hard to navigate but interesting pics.
> 
> www. gloryrac .blogspot .com


 
"Glory days"? Not many of them I recall. The pictures on there give a flavour of what the reality of these supposed "glory days" were. A few gigs, with very few people even bothering to turn up. Those that did downed a few lagers tops, had a scrap between the different factions and when not up to their ankles in piss and vomit, throwing up in the bogs, watched and listened to some pretty dire bands, most people have never heard of and after their 15 seconds of fame disappeared forever. Skrewdrivers appearance battered and bloodied was probably the high point and ended up ironically being their low point. You could say it was more of a car crash, without much in the way of "glory" for its participants. 'Blood and I'm a gonner'.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Apr 5, 2013)

Red Storm said:


> I think it's folded.
> 
> EDL support for UKIP does UKIP some good, but I think they'll eschew it because it's not suit and tie enough.


 
I'm not entirely convinced EDL backing will make any significant difference electorally. What it does do is reflect how, apparently over night, UKIP has become politically acceptable to BNP type voters and been welcomed into the 'nationalist community'.


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## Joe Reilly (Apr 7, 2013)

framed said:


> Sounds like a Joe Reilly quote to me...


 
Touche!

Here is an equally tidy little quite from Mr Frank Field MP:

_“In my lifetime, we’ve moved from a Labour Party which was working class-dominated. Some trendy London middle class went along with it but [were] subjected, at least publicly, to the moral economy of the working class. _
_“We’ve moved to a stage where what was that minority is in a governing position, which imposes upon the working class its moral economy… there is a real crisis of representation.”_

*The Independent* from last week.

The same case was made in 'The Making of Red Action' only a quarter of a century earlier.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Apr 10, 2013)

Margaret Hodge, just now on Newsnight: "we left a vacuum, the BNP filled it."


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## connollyist (Apr 11, 2013)

I do realise this is a little off topic, but for anyone going to the below gig (featuring AFA linked bands) here are the set times







Tickets are here http://brixton.fatsoma.com/events/81296/


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## Joe Reilly (Apr 29, 2013)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Margaret Hodge, just now on Newsnight: "we left a vacuum, the BNP filled it."


 
..and after the BNP came UKIP.


*The Slow Fix*

The decline of the BNP has given UKIP the chance to fill the yawning gap that exists in working class political representation. By way of contrast, the current incarnations of the left are failing, yet again, to make any impression. This is repeating the pattern of recent decades, where the right have consistently out-thought the left in terms of strategy. The ongoing capitalist crisis offers real opportunities for our side, but it also presents great dangers. If the left continues to shirk its responsibility by failing to fully engage with the working class, it leaves the path clear for the continued growth of right-wing nationalism.
The recent Eastleigh by-election, where UKIP came in second less than two thousand votes behind the incumbent Lib Dems, has confirmed UKIP’s rise to political prominence in the UK. UKIP have long been a force at European level, but this has largely been due to their being a single-issue, anti-Europe protest vehicle. However, they are now making an impact at the ground level of British politics. Where not so long ago UKIP had fewer councillors than the BNP (and indeed, the IWCA), in the local elections of May 2012 UKIP were able to field nearly 700 candidates nationwide (compared to the BNP’s 130) and secured 13% of all votes cast, up from 8% in 2011. In the upcoming local elections in May, they will be standing 1,700 candidates in three-quarters of the available seats, as many as the Lib-Dems and only 500 behind the Tories. The website politicalbetting.com states that ‘For UKIP to have the nationwide organisation capable of putting up candidates in three quarters of the seats is a massive achievement’.
More significantly, it is not just in middle England where UKIP are breaking through, for their success in Eastleigh follows on from the second places they attained in the Middlesbrough and Rotherham by-elections in November last year, and Barnsley in March 2011, all Labour strongholds where UKIP comprehensively beat out the BNP. What explains this?
It is no coincidence that the rise of UKIP has followed on the heels of the decline of the BNP. In 2008 the BNP held 55 local and district councillors (link) and scored almost 70,000 votes in the London mayoral election, and in 2009 they won two MEPs in European elections where they netted a million votes nationwide. This earned Nick Griffin a spot on Question Time in November 2009, and the BNP then went on to poll over 500,000 votes in the 2010 general election. From this pinnacle, the BNP are now down to three elected councillors and their vote in the 2012 London mayoral election fell to below 30,000. In contrast to UKIP, the BNP are only standing 100 candidates in the coming local elections.
At the time of the Question Time appearance the BNP appeared all set to mount a profound challenge to the political establishment, but all their forward momentum has been lost and they have gone markedly backwards, and their drop-off in electoral success has been matched by public in-fighting, splits and financial troubles. Why has this happened? For one, the political establishment – all three major parties, plus satellites such as Hope Not Hate – mobilised as one in response to the threat they perceived from the BNP. Resources were poured into key battleground areas (such as Barking and Dagenham), and almost certainly there was an element of state infiltration of the organisation, which helped to sow instability. This is how the political centre responds to _any_ threat to its established order: on a lower level, the IWCA has been subject to similar treatment (link). The concern of Hope Not Hate isn’t to defend the working class from fascism, it is to defend the political centre from any ‘radical’ threat. For a time, the BNP benefitted from the ‘outlaw’ status conveyed upon them as the political establishment united against them, but eventually the weight of resources lined up against them began to tell.
Another aspect is the lack of political experience and capital within the BNP. Up until 1994 their priority had been fighting a costly and ultimately losing street war. It was only at the turn of the century that they fully committed to the electoral route, and they didn’t win their first councillor until 2002. They then reaped great rewards extremely quickly, perhaps too quickly: having reached the heights by the end of the decade, they did not have the know-how or the experience to train on. They had not developed the wealth of experience and personnel that, for example, the FN in France has over a period of more than thirty years. Bluntly put, the BNP do not have the resources, capability or know-how to fully capitalise on the opportunities available to them (again, the IWCA faces something not dissimilar, particularly where resources are concerned).  Finally, a large factor in the BNP’s vertiginous growth was falling for the temptation of spending money they didn’t have, resulting in the straitened financial position they now find themselves in...


----------



## chilango (Apr 29, 2013)

connollyist said:


> I do realise this is a little off topic, but for anyone going to the below gig (featuring AFA linked bands) here are the set times
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Dax lived across the road from where I lived in Milan.

There's still a big memorial march every year for him.


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## gawkrodger (Apr 30, 2013)

can't think where else to stick this. Brigada 1874 Ultras last night


----------



## framed (Apr 30, 2013)

Joe Reilly said:


> ..and after the BNP came UKIP.
> 
> 
> *The Slow Fix*
> ...


 

You forgot to add the link and source. 

It's from the IWCA site: *SLOW FIX*


----------



## Smokeandsteam (May 1, 2013)

framed said:


> You forgot to add the link and source.
> 
> It's from the IWCA site: *SLOW FIX*


 
Doesn't the article merit its own thread?


----------



## Joe Reilly (May 1, 2013)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Doesn't the article merit its own thread?


 
I see your point, but on reflection at it's core the core of the article is informed by a militant anti-fascist stance that from the off insisted on a the need for a holistic approach to dealing with the right in all it's forms, which is to say physically, intellectually, culturally and if we follow the logic, electorally.  

By contrast the left has done or attempted none of these things: for them anti-fascism is always a single issue it should by and large be addresssed in an apolitical way.

Otherwise, as the argument goes 'you might let the BNP in'.

Taking the apolitical route means having a big a tent as possible thats accomodates everyone bar the 'nazis' . And as we all know that even included UKIP. It probably still does.

But now UKIP are proving themselves attractive to that section of the population that previously voted BNP - but even more so. 

One poll today puts UKIP on 22 % of the vote.

They probably won't get anything near that tomorrow, but what about the day after tomorrow?

Already we are being served up at least one fascist policy by a party previously deemed to be anti-fascist.

Fascism delivered without (by and large) fascists is how euro-nationalism is played out on mainland Europe.

And as the IWCA article points out, a hefty double figure return tomorrow will put Britain on par with France, Holland, Austria etc almost overnight.  

So what now?

That is the question.

And on balance I would say this thread, given its own particular history, is the ideal place to debate the answers.


----------



## framed (May 1, 2013)

Shit.... I've just posted the full article on the forum... Sorry Joe, I'd just finished posting it when you put this up.

http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...-rise-of-ukip-and-decline-of-the-left.309755/


----------



## Joe Reilly (May 1, 2013)

framed said:


> Shit.... I've just posted the full article on the forum... Sorry Joe, I'd just finished posting it when you put this up.
> 
> http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...-rise-of-ukip-and-decline-of-the-left.309755/


 
No problem.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (May 1, 2013)

Joe Reilly said:


> And on balance I would say this thread, given its own particular history, is the ideal place to debate the answers.


 
I see what you mean - however the 'rise' of UKIP has its own thread and the IWCA analysis is the most cogent yet about what it reflects and the the obvious challenges and tasks it poses for the left if is wants to be competitive. This deserves wider debate.

Having seen that Framed has now done what I suggested - and seen the usual dismal response from Nigel Irritable - I think you are right


----------



## plug ugly (May 1, 2013)

BEYOND “A PLAGUE ON BOTH THEIR HOUSES”: THE BRADFORD 12 & THE LIBERAL ANTI-FASCISM OF HOPE NOT HATE

interesting article but i pick up a sense that the author thinks that any anti-fascism needs to led by ethnic minorities. no class perspective in the article just race.


----------



## belboid (May 1, 2013)

Joe Reilly said:


> One poll today puts UKIP on 22 % of the vote.


only in the areas where there are elections happening, ie the largely tory shires. They are doing well, but not _that_ well.


----------



## Joe Reilly (May 1, 2013)

belboid said:


> only in the areas where there are elections happening, ie the largely tory shires. They are doing well, but not _that_ well.


 
While this is true it is also the case that outside of the tory shires is where the real political damage will be inflicted.


----------



## belboid (May 1, 2013)

getting 3% of the electorate in Middlesbrough doesn't really convince me they're gaining much in working class areas.


----------



## The39thStep (May 2, 2013)

I think you will find that they will get significantly more than that in the South Shields by election tonight


----------



## malatesta32 (May 2, 2013)

results tomorrow so not much point in staying up worrying thru the night!


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## belboid (May 2, 2013)

The39thStep said:


> I think you will find that they will get significantly more than that in the South Shields by election tonight


They'll come second, but so far behind labour and on a tiny turn out. I doubt they'll get a significantly higher percentage of the electorate. We'll see.


----------



## Red Storm (May 2, 2013)

I'm dubious about how well UKIP will do.


----------



## Joe Reilly (May 2, 2013)

Red Storm said:


> I'm dubious about how well UKIP will do.


 
The salient point from an anti-fascist perspective is that the current and previous radical candidate to fill the vacuum are both from the far-right. In the game of leap frog fascism proper may be the long term gainers because with the UKIP flying the flag nationally, it will give them an opportunity to re group out of the lime light, while at the same time providing a ready pool of pre-politicised recruits should UKIP ever show the slightest signs of wavering.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 2, 2013)

Red Storm said:


> I'm dubious about how well UKIP will do.


it'll be robert kilroy-silk all over again


----------



## Red Storm (May 3, 2013)

Looks like I may have spoke too soon.


----------



## cogg (May 3, 2013)

Red Storm said:


> Looks like I may have spoke too soon.


Average of 26% in seats where they stood according to the BBC.


----------



## The39thStep (May 3, 2013)

cogg said:


> Average of 26% in seats where they stood according to the BBC.


 
Hi mate, how goes it?


----------



## The39thStep (May 3, 2013)

belboid said:


> They'll come second, but so far behind labour and on a tiny turn out. I doubt they'll get a significantly higher percentage of the electorate. We'll see.


 
Let see that gain


----------



## belboid (May 3, 2013)

10%, a decent amount higher, I'd have gone for 7-8 if you'd pushed me yesterday.

Better than i thought they'd do ,for sure.  No evidence one person switched from Labour to them tho, absolutely no need for them to have done so, given the collapse in the Tory, BNP & Lib votes.  So I'm not really convinced it gives any more credence to the thesis that they're leading an inevitable march into WC territories, a la the BNP.  Nothing like.


----------



## malatesta32 (May 3, 2013)

bnp results: http://www.hopenothate.org.uk/2013/elections/


----------



## Joe Reilly (May 3, 2013)

belboid said:


> No evidence one person switched from Labour to them tho, absolutely no need for them to have done so, given the collapse in the Tory, BNP & Lib votes. So I'm not really convinced it gives any more credence to the thesis that they're leading an inevitable march into WC territories, a la the BNP. Nothing like.


 
Yeah, well the thing is, that is precisely, if anyone needs reminding, what the left once confidently said of the projected BNP vote too.

Meanwhile this in from an IWCA member in Oxford:

"I had an altercation with UKIP canvassers yesterday in Oxford city centre which shows how they try to be all things to all people.
At first they must have thought I was far-right (short hair and a Fred Perry probably did it) so I was told by the student canvasser that ‘the BNP are left wing’. When I pointed out that I was actually against UKIP because they were right wing, he started saying that UKIP are not racist and that they were standing up for ordinary people. I pointed out that I hadn’t said they were racist, but that I am against them because they are anti-working class.
At this point his colleague, a middle aged Nigel Farage clone (I kid you not, trilby hat etc) stepped in with: ‘We are Libertarians’. When I replied that ‘when people like him talk about liberty, they mean the liberty of the rich to exploit the rest of us - socialism for the rich, capitalism for the poor’, he tried to convince me that everyone had done well out of Margaret Thatcher!
I mentioned Milton Friedman and his face lit up. I told him that Friedman was a cunt and that the gap between rich and poor had risen under neoliberalism. He denied this and persisted with his fiction that the working class had done well out of Thatcherism. At this point they both accused me of losing the argument because I had swore at them and they took the opportunity to back off (to be honest I was losing my temper so it was probably for the best as we were in the middle of a busy shopping street!)
There is a huge UKIP poster about immigration facing the gates of the Oxford Bus Company. I’ve heard no negative comments about this. One of the scousers, a ‘left winger’ who works alongside D T, was going to vote UKIP on the immigration issue until David explained what they were about. I also spoke to another driver who is a fairly decent bloke who used to be a union activist at Royal Mail with my cousin. He was also going to vote UKIP as he believed that they were standing up for the working class."


----------



## Red Storm (May 3, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> bnp results: http://www.hopenothate.org.uk/2013/elections/


 
Still got a good vote in some places.


----------



## Joe Reilly (May 3, 2013)

Red Storm said:


> Still got a good vote in some places.


 
Yes, but this round UKIP appears to be the game changer.

Compared with 2009 - the last time these seats were fought - the average decline in vote share is minus 10 percentage points for the Conservatives and minus 12 for the Liberal Democrats.

The pattern of the past would expect to see the opposition advancing at the Government's expense.

But this is not happening.

Instead, Labour's vote has barely increased from its disastrous showing in 2009, averaging a six-point increase only.

It seems the much anticipated rally to Labour has gone to UKIP instead. So much for UKIP being a threat to the Tories only.


----------



## belboid (May 3, 2013)

Joe Reilly said:


> Yes, but this round UKIP appears to be the game changer.
> 
> Compared with 2009 - the last time these seats were fought - the average decline in vote share is minus 10 percentage points for the Conservatives and minus 12 for the Liberal Democrats.
> 
> ...


that's quite a leap to that conclusion. Labour are up 5% on the poll you referred to earlier (the one where UKIP were on 22%), which is more than UKIP are up by. It's not a great performance by them, by any means, but it isnt very strong evidence for a significant number of working class votes going that way yet.


----------



## framed (May 3, 2013)

belboid said:


> that's quite a leap to that conclusion. Labour are up 5% on the poll you referred to earlier (the one where UKIP were on 22%), which is more than UKIP are up by. It's not a great performance by them, by any means,* but it isnt very strong evidence for a significant number of working class votes going that way yet.*


 


> Yes it is, if you're understanding of written English is the same as mine. *Falling into 'the domain of UKIP' does not imply that UKIP have won the hearts and minds of whole sections of the working class... yet.*


 
*'Yet...'* being the operative word, of course, as used in exactly the same context by you today and me yesterday.


----------



## belboid (May 3, 2013)

There is nothing inherent that means they will do, tho is there?  Little evidence of making _any_ headway, and thats the point.  Its possible they could, but they havent got far at all so far.


----------



## framed (May 3, 2013)

belboid said:


> There is nothing inherent that means they will do, tho is there? Little evidence of making _any_ headway, and thats the point. Its possible they could, but they havent got far at all so far.


 
Those dynamics might change now though as a result of their success at these elections. If they reach the conclusion that there is indeed a constituency for them in working class areas, the language and orientation might change. The Colonel Blimp type characters obviously won't wash in working class communities, but I wouldn't underestimate their ability to adapt and use other horses for those courses.


----------



## belboid (May 3, 2013)

framed said:


> Those dynamics might change now though as a result of their success at these elections. If they reach the conclusion that there is indeed a constituency for them in working class areas, the language and orientation might change. The Colonel Blimp type characters obviously won't wash in working class communities, but I wouldn't underestimate their ability to adapt and use other horses for those courses.


if you want to see an example of the right outdoing the left amongst WC areas, the race for mayor of Doncaster is a far far better example of them filling the vacuum more successfully than us. A comparatively successful TUSC campaign gets 1900 votes - it beast the libdems, but is only half the English Democrats and a tenth that for the (ex-English Democrat) mayor


----------



## framed (May 3, 2013)

belboid said:


> if you want to see an example of the right outdoing the left amongst WC areas, the race for mayor of Doncaster is a far far better example of them filling the vacuum more successfully than us. A comparatively successful TUSC campaign gets 1900 votes - it beast the libdems, but is only half the English Democrats and a tenth that for the (ex-English Democrat) mayor


 
Are there any links you can recommend on the Doncaster situation?


----------



## Joe Reilly (May 3, 2013)

belboid said:


> Little evidence of making _any_ headway, and thats the point. Its possible they could, but they havent got far at all so far.


 
So the 5,000 plus votes in South Shields were all half-colonel's bussed in from Salisbury were they?


----------



## cesare (May 4, 2013)

framed said:


> Those dynamics might change now though as a result of their success at these elections. If they reach the conclusion that there is indeed a constituency for them in working class areas, the language and orientation might change. The Colonel Blimp type characters obviously won't wash in working class communities, but I wouldn't underestimate their ability to adapt and use other horses for those courses.


Looking at their website, I think they're going for the tradesmen/SMEs.


----------



## belboid (May 8, 2013)

Joe Reilly said:


> So the 5,000 plus votes in South Shields were all half-colonel's bussed in from Salisbury were they?


of course Joe.  Just like the 8000 tory votes were all old etonians bussed in from huntingdon


----------



## belboid (May 8, 2013)

framed said:


> Are there any links you can recommend on the Doncaster situation?


forgot about this before, sorry...

Altho all I can come back and say is....no. 

As far as I know there hasn't been anything with any depth to it at all.  Merely some blather about 'very specific circumstances.'  And, while there were very specific circumstances, the fact that it was the English Democrats who could exploit them then, and who are still in the best position (of the non-mainstream parties) to exploit that anger now, is simply symptomatic of the wider vacuum.


----------



## Red Storm (May 15, 2013)

I've posted a new update on the Anti-Fascist Archive.

The two articles by Red Action on multiculturalism might be interesting in the current debate on here. Also the academic article by Ince which gives some thoughts on the IWCA.


----------



## framed (May 15, 2013)

Red Storm said:


> I've posted a new update on the Anti-Fascist Archive.
> 
> The two articles by Red Action on multiculturalism might be interesting in the current debate on here. Also the academic article by Ince which gives some thoughts on the IWCA.


 

Very timely. 

The piece about St Pauli's subtle movement from radical politics to the radically commercial is very good too... Cheers!


----------



## Red Storm (May 15, 2013)

framed said:


> Very timely.
> 
> The piece about St Pauli's subtle movement from radical politics to the radically commercial is very good too... Cheers!


 
The St. Pauli and the Livorno article were forwarded to me to give credit.


----------



## Joe Reilly (May 21, 2013)

cogg said:


> Average of 26% in seats where they stood according to the BBC.


 
Latest poll puts them on 22 per cent across the entire country. Membership estimate is now approaching 30,000. That is about ten times what the BNP had when the broke through a decade or so ago. And almost double the NF at it's heighest point. Not fascist of course, much less involved in direct action against opponents and minorities but still...


----------



## Red About Town (May 26, 2013)

Apologies if posted elsewhere but an interesting read..


*Duncan Robertson: dedicated Searchlight intelligence officer*

http://www.searchlightmagazine.com/...on-dedicated-searchlight-intelligence-officer


----------



## Joe Reilly (May 29, 2013)

Red About Town said:


> Apologies if posted elsewhere but an interesting read..
> 
> 
> *Duncan Robertson: dedicated Searchlight intelligence officer*
> ...


 
Just heard respected journalist James Lawton on Radio Five live explain the infamous riot that caused the Ireland England game to be abandoned was all down to C18. This was an outrageous, even by their standards, self-serving Searchlight invention to boost C18 (and because it was peneterated at the very top) Searchlight.

Interesting isn't it how blatant lies such as this, despite being utterly discredited at the time and since, (even Nick Lowles has admitted there was not a single C18 member identified, much less arrested, on the night) are still trotted out as 'fact' nearly twenty years later. Whatever else you might think, the durability is impressive.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Jun 11, 2013)

I posted this on the SWP split thread but it's probably more relevant to this thread really:

This article on 'squaddism' from the ISN blog is doing the rounds on facebook at the moment.

Apparently the SWP are calling the ISN 'squaddists' (lol) and this is a kind of response to those kinds of accusations. Seems to accept all the SWP arguments and slanders against the 'squaddists' and instead of countering them sets out to differentiate their approach.

What do those actually involved in the 80s think of it?


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 11, 2013)

Nowt wrong with gravy and chips.


----------



## ayatollah (Jun 11, 2013)

SpineyNorman said:


> I posted this on the SWP split thread but it's probably more relevant to this thread really:
> 
> This article on 'squaddism' from the ISN blog is doing the rounds on facebook at the moment.
> 
> ...


 
In his ISN article the author, Richard Atkinson, freely admits that he knows nothing about the actual history of "The Squads" ! Which doesn't really give him much of a basis for a knowledge -based "riposte" to the SWP's current abuse of anyone engaging in more militant anti fascist activity than them, as "Squaddists". Maybe he should have done a wee bit of background research ? Read "Beating the Fascists " perhaps ? Of course in the quite specific SWP context the "Squaddism" (or "Squadism" ) issue was really only a late 70's issue - (they'd expelled all of us militant direct action anti fascists by late 1981/early 1982 in the usual "show trial" purge process), not a 1980's issue at all as his article incorrectly claims. So Atkinson hasn't really even got his relevant decade right ! By the early 1980's the ex SWP "Squadists" were all operating outside of the SWP, (many in Red Action), and many of these went on to form Anti Fascist Action. The SWP simply wasn't a player at all in militant anti fascism for most of the 1980's.

Nevertheless, massive ignorance on Atkinson's part of the actual history of "Squadism" aside, it is interesting that the SWP today feels the need to drag up its ancient sneering misrepresentation of what "Squadism" was and is as its "respectability straightjacket" leaves it increasingly impotent and sidelined by new emerging direct action against violent street action by the likes of the drunken EDL yobs . Atkinson though, also certainly sees "squadism" very much through the distorted lens provided by the SWP's traditional fairy story of what it was about, spoonfed to SWP members for decades now, and hasn't tried to "move beyond his programming" on that issue since leaving the SWP ! Atkinson obviously thinks that "Squadism" is encompassed by his heroic one-off escapade assaulting a couple of shop assistants in a record shop ! Rather than the endless 24/7 decades long broad activity spread of militant anti fascist activity, stretching from endless broad Left meeting and march stewarding, intelligence gathering, organising and stewarding popular music events on an anti racist theme, football fanzine producing, and yes, occasional violent street battles with fascist gangs, and sundry special violent , away from the public gaze, "targetted actions", that most old "Squadists" will recognise as the real substance of their anti fascist experience.

Malatesta's forthcoming new book on 100 years of anti fascism will contain a long account by myself of the originating background in the early 1970's of the emergeance of the phenomenum of "Squadism" in the UK, particularly the North West, as a necessary survival response to a then very real sustained physical threat to the entire Left, reformist and revolutionery, from organised fascist violence on a large scale. Hopefully the spate of recent books, "No Retreat", "Beating The Fascists", "Physical Resistance", and next Malatesta's tome, will slowly start to erase the totally inaccurate and self serving canard that the SWP has served up to misrepresent militant direct action anti fascism ,( as a component part of the essential wider anti fascist popular movement), over the years since their unprincipled late 1981 "Squadist Purge".


----------



## SpineyNorman (Jun 11, 2013)

ayatollah said:


> In his ISN article the author, Richard Atkinson, freely admits that he knows nothing about the actual history of "The Squads" ! Which doesn't really give him much of a basis for a knowledge -based "riposte" to the SWP's current abuse of anyone engaging in more militant anti fascisty activity than them as "Squaddists". Maybe he should have done a wee bit of background research ? Read "Beating the Fascists " perhaps ? Of course in the quite specific SWP context the "Squaddism" (or "Squadism" ) issue was really only a late 70's issue - (they'd expelled all of us militant direct action anti fascists by late 1981/early 1982 in the usual "show trial" purge process), not a 1980's issue at all as his article incorrectly claims. So Atkinson hasn't really even got his relevant decade right ! By the early 1980's the ex SWP "Squadists" were all operating outside of the SWP, (many in Red Action), and many of these went on to form Anti Fascist Action. The SWP simply wasn't a player at all in militant anti fascism for most of the 1980's.
> 
> Nevertheless, massive ignorance on Atkinson's part of the actual history of "Squadism" aside, it is interesting that the SWP today feels the need to drag up its ancient sneering misrepresentation of what "Squadism" was and is as its "respectability straightjacket" leaves it increasingly impotent and sidelined by new emerging direct action against violent street action by the likes of the drunken EDL yobs . Atkinson though, also certainly sees "squadism" very much through the distorted lens provided by the SWP's traditional fairy story of what it was about, spoonfed to SWP members for decades now, and hasn't tried to "move beyond his programming" on that issue since leaving the SWP ! Atkinson obviously thinks that "Squadism" is encompassed by his heroic one-off escapade assaulting a couple of shop assistants in a record shop ! Rather than the endless 24/7 decades long broad activity spread of militant anti fascist activity, stretching from endless broad Left meeting and march stewarding, intelligence gathering, organising and stewarding popular music events on an anti racist theme, football fanzine producing, and yes, occasional violent street battles with fascist gangs, and sundry special violent , away from the public gaze, "targetted actions", that most old "Squadists" will recognise as the real substance of their anti fascist experience.
> 
> Malatesta's forthcoming new book on 100 years of anti fascism will contain a long account by myself of the originating background in the early 1970's of the emergeance of the phenomenum of "Squadism" in the UK, particularly the North West, as a necessary survival response to a then very real sustained physical threat to the entire Left, reformist and revolutionery, from organised fascist violence on a large scale. Hopefully the spate of recent books, "No Retreat", "Beating The Fascists", "Physical Resistance", and next Malatesta's tome, will slowly start to erase the totally inaccurate and self serving canard that the SWP has served up to misrepresent militant direct action anti fascism ,( as a component part of the essential wider anti fascist popular movement), over the years since their unprincipled late 1981 "Squadist Purge".


 
Cheers ayatollah. I know I sometimes have a go when we disagree on contemporary politics but you still have my respect for what you did back then (as I do for the rest of the 'squaddists).


----------



## framed (Jun 11, 2013)

ayatollah said:


> Malatesta's forthcoming new book on 100 years of anti fascism will contain a long account by myself...


 
I was looking forward to Mal's book until I saw that...


----------



## Joe Reilly (Jun 11, 2013)

SpineyNorman said:


> I posted this on the SWP split thread but it's probably more relevant to this thread really:
> 
> This article on 'squaddism' from the ISN blog is doing the rounds on facebook at the moment.
> 
> ...


 
Mr Atkinson is certainly an amusing character. As he admits he know little of squadism but advances an incident he himself was involved in to square the circle. In brief, he and his chums were beaten up, took out the wrong target, got drunk and were then arrested later after returning to the scene of the crime.

This he presents as probably typical of squadist indiscipline and thus something to be politically guarded against up to the present day. Had it been anything like that, V.O's and not kangaroo expulsions would have been the order of the day.

In my experience squadism was always part of a wider strategic objective, and usually came into play in order, as Micky Fenn quoted in BTF put it, to "remedy the situation" when as was often the case, the natural aggression of the fascists was threatning to tilt the balance locally in their favour. This could be paper sales, meetings, gigs etc

In short, far from mimicking squadist behaviour, Mr Atkinson and co were clearly the type of well meaning but hapless saps, squadists were deployed to protect.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Jun 13, 2013)

ayatollah said:


> Hopefully the spate of recent books, "No Retreat", "Beating The Fascists", "Physical Resistance", and next Malatesta's tome, will slowly start to erase the totally inaccurate and self serving canard that the SWP has served up to misrepresent militant direct action anti fascism ,( as a component part of the essential wider anti fascist popular movement), over the years since their unprincipled late 1981 "Squadist Purge".


 
Your support for truth and political fidelity would be far more impressive was it not for the fact that of the three books you endorse, two seek to deliberately misrepresent key aspects of militant anti-fascism in a similar way to the SWP and for the same self-serving reasons.


----------



## Red Storm (Jun 13, 2013)

Just spend half an hour making the opening sequence. Amateurish but I'm very proud .

I'll be finally putting up some other videos bignose1 gave me. 

Points to anyone who genuinely recognises the theme tune. Anyone over the age of 26 must have used computer wizardry to get the right answer.


----------



## krink (Jun 13, 2013)

beat you by over a year


----------



## Red Storm (Jun 13, 2013)

krink said:


> beat you by over a year




That's the copy of Ratcatcher I uploaded to the internet. Just put it on Vimeo though.


----------



## krink (Jun 13, 2013)

i know - I downloaded it from vimeo


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## Red Storm (Jun 13, 2013)

I found a document called Anti-Nazi League: A Critical Review, can't remember where I found it. 

It's compares the two "marks" of the ANL and the last section on the ANL MK2 was written by an AFA member. It was produced by the Colin Roach Centre. 

I've uploaded it to the archive here


----------



## Red Storm (Jun 17, 2013)

Don't know if anyone saw this wierd news story on Adam Busby.


----------



## fiannanahalba (Jun 17, 2013)

Random and unpredictable. Every train crash, dead pigeon and chip pan fire in Glasgow has been claimed by Adam Busby.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Jun 18, 2013)

One for the "I Spy Obscure Far Right Groups" brigade:

According to this, the British Movement were leafletting in Sheffield at the weekend:
http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news...ar-right-group-1-5773364#.UcAuCEskVSk.twitter


----------



## belboid (Jun 18, 2013)

Fozzie Bear said:


> One for the "I Spy Obscure Far Right Groups" brigade:
> 
> According to this, the British Movement were leafletting in Sheffield at the weekend:
> http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news...ar-right-group-1-5773364#.UcAuCEskVSk.twitter


there is a brief mention of it on the EDL thread - it wasnt entirely clear whether they were BM or NF I'm told.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Jun 18, 2013)

belboid said:


> there is a brief mention of it on the EDL thread - it wasnt entirely clear whether they were BM or NF I'm told.


 
I'm pretty confident it was the BM - called by Jordan Pont, the fascist postman, who runs the British Movement's youth (lol) section. The leaflets they were giving out were BM ones too. But the NF and BM youth (lol) sections have apparently been cooperating so it's possible some of them were NF.


----------



## malatesta32 (Jun 18, 2013)

the BM are gearing up for their 'sunwheel festival' which features camping and synchronised seig-heiling competitions. theyhave never been much since colin jordan was disgraced and took to the hills. watmough was there in sheff at the weekend.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/theuntrusted/9050733042/in/set-72157634141966310

nasty little scrote and deffo a grass.


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## butchersapron (Jun 18, 2013)

SpineyNorman said:


> I'm pretty confident it was the BM - called by Jordan Pont, the fascist postman, who runs the British Movement's youth (lol) section. The leaflets they were giving out were BM ones too. But the NF and BM youth (lol) sections have apparently been cooperating so it's possible some of them were NF.


 
So he's gone BNP-->NF-->BM in a year? Sounds like this was a joint job to me.


----------



## malatesta32 (Jun 18, 2013)

so whilst we're here, any suggestions as to combating the resurgence of EDL?

http://internationalsocialistnetwork.org/index.php?start=6


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## Fozzie Bear (Jun 18, 2013)

The leaflets in this photo say BM: http://www.flickr.com/photos/theuntrusted/9050733454/in/set-72157634141966310/


----------



## Red Storm (Jun 18, 2013)

BM were stickering Manchester fairly regularly. 

These chaps: 



Spoiler


----------



## chilango (Jun 18, 2013)

When did the BM reappear? Any continuity with previous incarnations?


----------



## malatesta32 (Jun 18, 2013)

they have always had a PO Box in heckmondwike (?) but this is the 1st time they have done anything for years. watmough being involved illustrates the quality leadership and political programme.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Jun 18, 2013)

Red Storm said:


> I found a document called Anti-Nazi League: A Critical Review, can't remember where I found it.
> 
> It's compares the two "marks" of the ANL and the last section on the ANL MK2 was written by an AFA member. It was produced by the Colin Roach Centre.
> 
> I've uploaded it to the archive here


 
Not too important in the scale of things but the 'AFA member' actually left AFA in 1991, after AFA bested a strong force of BM following a bloody clash near Abbey Wood BR station, disrupted a BNP march in Thamesmead, and took over a far-right symposium in Kensington - all in the same day.

There's no pleasing some people.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Jun 18, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> So he's gone BNP-->NF-->BM in a year? Sounds like this was a joint job to me.


 
Yep, I'm not sure when he went from NF to BM but him and the S Yorks NF organiser don't get on at all - allegedly something to do with the NF organiser having a relationship with a Czech man.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 18, 2013)

If any of the groups can't keep a motivated young man as member for any serious length of time...


----------



## malatesta32 (Jun 18, 2013)

SpineyNorman said:


> Yep, I'm not sure when he went from NF to BM but him and the S Yorks NF organiser don't get on at all - allegedly something to do with the NF organiser having a relationship with a Czech man.


 

tell us more!


----------



## Red Storm (Jun 18, 2013)

Joe Reilly said:


> Not too important in the scale of things but the 'AFA member' actually left AFA in 1991, after AFA bested a strong force of BM following a bloody clash near Abbey Wood BR station, disrupted a BNP march in Thamesmead, and took over a far-right symposium in Kensington - all in the same day.
> 
> There's no pleasing some people.


 

Thanks for the correction. 

If those were the reasons to leave AFA why was he ever in it?!


----------



## SpineyNorman (Jun 18, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> tell us more!


 
There's not that much more to tell - except that this information comes straight from the mouth of the NF organiser himself. We call him Baldrick, for reasons that a quick google ought to reveal.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Jun 18, 2013)

Pictures of BM in Sheffield here. (Isn't that Watmough in the one on the left?)


----------



## Fedayn (Jun 18, 2013)

Joe Reilly said:


> Not too important in the scale of things but the 'AFA member' actually left AFA in 1991, after AFA bested a strong force of BM following a bloody clash near Abbey Wood BR station, disrupted a BNP march in Thamesmead, and took over a far-right symposium in Kensington - all in the same day.
> 
> There's no pleasing some people.


 
Wasn't the Kensington symposium, the LSG one, in 1992?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jun 18, 2013)

SpineyNorman said:


> Yep, I'm not sure when he went from NF to BM but him and the S Yorks NF organiser don't get on at all - allegedly something to do with the NF organiser having a relationship with a Czech man.


 
Just Czech mates.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jun 18, 2013)

SpineyNorman said:


> Pictures of BM in Sheffield here. (Isn't that Watmough in the one on the left?)


*coff*


----------



## bignose1 (Jun 18, 2013)

DaveCinzano said:


> Just Czech mates.


 
I was gonna do that but I thought nah thats poor


----------



## audiotech (Jun 18, 2013)

SpineyNorman said:


> Pictures of BM in Sheffield here. (Isn't that Watmough in the one on the left?)


It is him, along with his latest chums. In 1980, with those who foolishly followed him at that time; got a surprise when they turned up mob handed to disrupt an ANL mk1 fundraiser. It took just two of us to show them the exit. He's been decked, or hid behind police lines on a number of occasions. Not the most physically built of the master race, but was known to carry an iron bar in his early days, when a spotty, pasty faced, yoof, with hair. Steps might be interested in these features, as he does tend to harp on about them quite a bit.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Jun 18, 2013)

DaveCinzano said:


> *coff*


 
Bollocks, didn't read that far back


----------



## audiotech (Jun 19, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> I was gonna do that but I thought nah thats poor


They were mere pawns.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Jun 19, 2013)

Red Storm said:


> Thanks for the correction.
> 
> If those were the reasons to leave AFA why was he ever in it?!


 
Though his departure was regarded as undignified, up to that, MM had what most would regard as a respectable 'war record' prior to the abrupt departure in 1991. It appears that the constant ratcheting up demanded by circumstances, asked of him more than he was prepared to give.

So he bowed out. Fair enough. Everyone has their tipping point.

But instead of retiring outright, he sought to present the failing's as being AFA's rather than his own. He along with others, described as 'renegades' in BTF, (which is possibly a tad harsh) set out for what they saw as calmer waters, but came seriously unstuck when on one of their first outings they had one of their number near murdered after blundering into a clash at Old St with C18.

Believing the victims of the rout to be the hated and feared Red Action, the Far-Right were briefly ebullient: 'their finest hour' one publication gushed.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Jun 19, 2013)

Fedayn said:


> Wasn't the Kensington symposium, the LSG one, in 1992?


 LSG?


----------



## Red Storm (Jun 19, 2013)

Joe Reilly said:


> Though his departure was regarded as undignified, up to that, MM had what most would regard as a respectable 'war record' prior to the abrupt departure in 1991. It appears that the constant ratcheting up demanded by circumstances, asked of him more than he was prepared to give.
> 
> So he bowed out. Fair enough. Everyone has their tipping point.
> 
> ...


 

So did they create another organisation or latch onto a pre-existing one?


----------



## Joe Reilly (Jun 19, 2013)

Red Storm said:


> So did they create another organisation or latch onto a pre-existing one?


 
It was called the Anti-Fascist _Association_ or _Alliance, _I don't recall. That the 'AFA' brand was retained with either was entirely coincidental of course.


----------



## bignose1 (Jun 19, 2013)

Red Storm said:


> Thanks for the correction.
> 
> If those were the reasons to leave AFA why was he ever in it?!


 
Yep was a busy day......mad hot....moody...clammy......thats nylon underpants for you!


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 19, 2013)

Joe Reilly said:


> Though his departure was regarded as undignified, up to that, MM had what most would regard as a respectable 'war record' prior to the abrupt departure in 1991. It appears that the constant ratcheting up demanded by circumstances, asked of him more than he was prepared to give.
> 
> So he bowed out. Fair enough. Everyone has their tipping point.
> 
> ...


 
'lack of democracy ' is fast becoming to politics what 'musical diffreneces' became  to rock bands



> Mark Metcalf says:
> Mar 18 2013 at 6:31 pm
> AFA – there was no way anyone in AFA would have listened to me. I had objected on many occasions to what I felt was a lack of democracy in the organisation and which I felt prevented the organisation from ever growing beyond a few hundred activists. The leadership were, very sadly, like most left-wing groups uninterested in criticism and ultimately that – and possibly the likes of Jenner – contributed to its demise.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Jun 19, 2013)

The39thStep said:


> 'lack of democracy ' is fast becoming to politics what 'musical diffreneces' became to rock bands


 
Indeed. The amusing thing about 'PC' Jenner is that it was directly through Mr Metcalfe that he got involved in AFA. That said the 'war was already over, or as good as, before he offered his services to the cause. So to say he might have something to do with AFA's 'demise' is at best daft. Needless to say MM (as with a certain Mr Hann) never offered any critique on how AFA could go beyond the 'few hundred members' he refers to, before he bailed with his little band, just as the battle hotted up.  An true anti-fascist oracle or something less heroic is for history to judge.


----------



## intersol32 (Jul 2, 2013)

Joe Reilly said:


> Indeed. The amusing thing about 'PC' Jenner is that it was directly through Mr Metcalfe that he got involved in AFA. That said the 'war was already over, or as good as, before he offered his services to the cause. So to say he might have something to do with AFA's 'demise' is at best daft. Needless to say MM (as with a certain Mr Hann) never offered any critique on how AFA could go beyond the 'few hundred members' he refers to, before he bailed with his little band, just as the battle hotted up. An true anti-fascist oracle or something less heroic is for history to judge.


 

The Evans and Lewis book arrived today, ahead of the publication date. I certainly recognize Jenner/Cassidy from the photos and description. It was mentioned in the book along with his time spent reporting on AFA and RA that he was on one of the delegations to Ireland.

As I provided some of the places to stay (which included my own house) in South Belfast on one of the later trips circa '98-'99, I was wondering if anyone remembers if he'd accompanied the delegation at that particular time?

MM mentioned in his Big Issue article that he'd been over on a union organized visit, so not sure if that's the one being referred to.

Further to the revelations about Jenner, the times I'd witnessed him around AFA activities and meetings I'd agree that he didn't make much of an impression as I recall.


----------



## past caring (Jul 2, 2013)

intersol32 said:


> As I provided some of the places to stay (which included my own house) in South Belfast on one of the later trips circa '98-'99, I was wondering if anyone remembers if he'd accompanied the delegation at that particular time?


 
Am pretty sure he was - unless I've got you down as completely the wrong person, this would be a year (two at most?) after you moved over? Anyway, I was on that year's delegation and although other things about that trip stick more in my memory, I'm fairly certain of this.


----------



## framed (Jul 2, 2013)

intersol32 said:


> The Evans and Lewis book arrived today, ahead of the publication date. I certainly recognize Jenner/Cassidy from the photos and description. It was mentioned in the book along with his time spent reporting on AFA and RA that he was on one of the delegations to Ireland.
> 
> As I provided some of the places to stay (which included my own house) in South Belfast on one of the later trips circa '98-'99, I was wondering if anyone remembers if he'd accompanied the delegation at that particular time?
> 
> ...


 

Best to check out if he maintained any private links with contacts over there.


----------



## intersol32 (Jul 3, 2013)

past caring said:


> Am pretty sure he was - unless I've got you down as completely the wrong person, this would be a year (two at most?) after you moved over? Anyway, I was on that year's delegation and although other things about that trip stick more in my memory, I'm fairly certain of this.


 

Yes, that's correct about me moving over there and the time frame. The delegation that year was mainly to provide RA people with an overview of how PSF were able to streamline their election strategy - the real nuts and bolts of it, feet on the ground, maximizing turnout etc. It was important, as this was the point in which things were gearing up with the IWCA and many wanted to learn from the experience of community activism from across the water. I seem to remember a meeting in the South Belfast SF center where much of this was discussed.

I don't reckon that any of this would have come across as "high grade intelligence" in any shape or form, as the IWCA strategy (and RA's position) were all public knowledge.

Framed points out probably the most urgent aspect - in which case it'll be worth raising that issue with those friends in Belfast who were around us at the time.


----------



## krink (Jul 4, 2013)

some interesting new vids on the afa archive site. this one is particularly interesting as it shows early c18 activity

http://antifascistarchive.com/2013/07/03/internment-commemoration-london-august-1992/

*is that a young cockney comedian Micky Flanagan at about 21 minutes


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 4, 2013)

Rather than wait for 30 mins to see Charlie Seargant read this article on the site which sets quite clear blue water between AFA and its pale imitations over the last decade. http://afaarchive.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/afa-rent-a-mob-or-radical-resistance-hayes.pdf


----------



## bignose1 (Jul 4, 2013)

You will see a young, slim, fresh faced Matthew Collins with the NF at 18.56 mins then later with the C18 mob.

I apologise for the frequent shaky pavement scenes but all the videos are unedited. The Swedish video refers to Reflex but should read Expo.


----------



## bignose1 (Jul 4, 2013)

No the shaky scenes wernt cos I was getting over excited about bumping into the luvely Caroline Giles in shorts.


----------



## bignose1 (Jul 4, 2013)

The guy at 21.16...scary Low Haw Haw lookalike...!


----------



## Inigo Montoya (Jul 8, 2013)

Maybe some older RA or AFA heads can help identify this individual?



> We are trying to identify an English neo-Nazi who spent time in Limerick in the early 2000s trying to organise a group called NSRUS. In Bernard O'Mahoney's 2005 hoolie/nazi memoir 'Hateland', this individual has been given the pseudonym 'Adolf'. If you can help us with a name, please PM us.
> 
> These are the the details we know:
> 
> ...




https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...37489237&type=1&theater&notif_t=photo_comment


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## malatesta32 (Jul 8, 2013)

yes i think o mahoney refers to him as adolf does he not? there is a photo of him in hateland - #14. maybe someone cd upload it?


----------



## Inigo Montoya (Jul 8, 2013)

If you click the link to the original post on Facebook, you can see that photo of him.


----------



## barney_pig (Jul 12, 2013)

Dave b. ( of red party and commune 'fame') has an interesting story about a mini confrontation with barnbrooke on his Facebook page

Though it contains too many real full names for me to be comfortable with cut n pasting it here


----------



## Red Storm (Jul 27, 2013)

http://londonagainstracism.com/

Pretty interesting wesbite full of interviews about anti-Racism and Racism in London in the 1970s.

Not checked it all out yet but looks like it's worth a look.


----------



## Kate Sharpley (Aug 18, 2013)

LiamO said:


> _In response to malatesta’s appeal for first-hand accounts I would like to offer the following. It is not about a violent street confrontation but about a meeting which precipitated and shaped later events. If you are gonna read it, you might wanna get yourself a cuppa first. Malatesta you can feel free to use it for your book or print it out and wipe your arse on it. _
> 
> It is my recollection of one small little incident which, for me, captures the mood and atmosphere of the times and also had a fundamental ripple-out effect…
> 
> ...


 
Now lifted (in part) for the _Bulletin of the Kate Sharpley Library_ and therefore immortalised in the British Library (as well as read by eager thousands of course).


----------



## manny-p (Aug 18, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> No the shaky scenes wernt cos I was getting over excited about bumping into the luvely Caroline Giles in shorts.


 
good footage mate.


----------



## malatesta32 (Aug 20, 2013)

Kate Sharpley! we got a lot more of that from Liam! hilarious stories from the front line. and there is more out there too.


----------



## TopCat (Aug 20, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> Nowt wrong with gravy and chips.


 
yes there is.


----------



## Kate Sharpley (Aug 20, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> Kate Sharpley! we got a lot more of that from Liam! hilarious stories from the front line. and there is more out there too.


Malatesta, you're immortalised in the British Library too (tho' there will be more of that coming when your book appears).


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 20, 2013)

TopCat said:
			
		

> yes there is.



I suppose you put salt and vinegar on roast potatoes aswell?


----------



## LiamO (Aug 20, 2013)

TopCat said:


> yes there is.


 

Bit of a norf/sarf divide on this one.

As Peter Kay memorably said of an irate northerner in a cockernee Chippy... "Has thou nowt moist?". Fortunately AFA was a broad church.


----------



## audiotech (Aug 20, 2013)

Joe Reilly said:


> Just heard respected journalist James Lawton on Radio Five live explain the infamous riot that caused the Ireland England game to be abandoned was all down to C18. This was an outrageous, even by their standards, self-serving Searchlight invention to boost C18 (and because it was peneterated at the very top) Searchlight.
> 
> Interesting isn't it how blatant lies such as this, despite being utterly discredited at the time and since, (even Nick Lowles has admitted there was not a single C18 member identified, much less arrested, on the night) are still trotted out as 'fact' nearly twenty years later. Whatever else you might think, the durability is impressive.


 
Well, according to a steward at the game he reported that some guy 'kept producing a C18 flag in spurts (not being draped, as others were doing with Union flags) and everything revolved around him' Lying was he?


----------



## framed (Aug 20, 2013)

audiotech said:


> Well, according to a steward at the game he reported that some guy 'kept producing a C18 flag in spurts (not being draped, as others were doing with Union flags) and everything revolved around him' Lying was he?


 

One 'witness' in a World In Action programme claimed this.... where is the photographic and/or video evidence to back up his claim?


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 20, 2013)

audiotech said:


> Well, according to a steward at the game he reported that some guy 'kept producing a C18 flag in spurts (not being draped, as others were doing with Union flags) and everything revolved around him' Lying was he?


 
Don't.


----------



## past caring (Aug 20, 2013)

audiotech said:


> Well, according to a steward at the game he reported that some guy 'kept producing a C18 flag in spurts (not being draped, as others were doing with Union flags) and everything revolved around him' Lying was he?


 
The week after the Dublin riot there were two middle-aged bonehead chancers showed up at a Millwall game (away to QPR in the FA Cup, iirc) wearing flight jackets and sky-blue berets (looked like a somewhat camp offshoot of the Guardian Angels). Joined in with a few chants, tried getting a 'No Surrender' going a couple of times to entirely dismal results and spent the rest of the time talking in stage whispers about how C18 had a result at Lansdowne Road and they'd been there.

After taking the piss failed to deter them, they eventually got a slap.

Had you been present to witness all this it would doubtless have been passed on as evidence of Millwall being a Fash stronghold. You arse.


----------



## TopCat (Aug 20, 2013)

past caring said:


> The week after the Dublin riot there were two middle-aged bonehead chancers showed up at a Millwall game (away to QPR in the FA Cup, iirc) wearing flight jackets and sky-blue berets (looked like a somewhat camp offshoot of the Guardian Angels). Joined in with a few chants, tried getting a 'No Surrender' going a couple of times to entirely dismal results and spent the rest of the time talking in stage whispers about how C18 had a result at Lansdowne Road and they'd been there.
> 
> After taking the piss failed to deter them, they eventually got a slap.
> 
> Had you been present to witness all this it would doubtless have been passed on as evidence of Millwall being a Fash stronghold. You arse.


 
Respect.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 20, 2013)

Just seen this on a mate's bookshelf. Is it any good then? Must be controversial if this thread is over 150 pages!


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 21, 2013)

its good. sometimes get the impression that there are things being left unsaid in it but with good reason. Details that can't be gone into iyswim.

just on a prose style note theres some excellent usage of euphemism 'A frank exchange of views' etc


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 21, 2013)

Why is this thread so long? People arguing over who was the most active AF and who is just bullshitting?


----------



## Red Storm (Aug 21, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> Why is this thread so long? People arguing over who was the most active AF and who is just bullshitting?


 

It's not all arguments.


----------



## LiamO (Aug 21, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> Why is this thread so long? People arguing over who was the most active AF and who is just bullshitting?


 

are you _really_ only noticing this thread now?


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 21, 2013)

LiamO said:


> are you _really_ only noticing this thread now?


I must have seen it before, but haven't given it much thought til I saw the book and then saw this thread in new posts


----------



## malatesta32 (Aug 21, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> Just seen this on a mate's bookshelf. Is it any good then? Must be controversial if this thread is over 150 pages!


 
it is the best book so far on militant antifascism from people who were there. as someone pointed out the 'patented red action' style is employed to amusing effect. 
this is gonna be a cracker by all accounts (mine):
http://malatesta32.wordpress.com/2012/02/27/militant-anti-fascism-book/


----------



## malatesta32 (Aug 21, 2013)

a chat with 'charlie poole' aka 'charlie' sargent: 

M: hey charlie can i interview you online?
*‘Charlie Poole’ *NO YOU CANT YOu little spaka head i wont talk to red scum so dont meaage me any more you gay little mugs ok. its pointless trying to stop my gigs as well 14/88

M: not going great your life is it mate? im assuming that in all those wasted years spent in prison masturbating wondering where it all went wrong you didn't do the literacy classes. what a fucken loser.

*‘Charlie Poole’*what i done in my time there is my bisnuss and will not tell a red scums like you what i done there anyway. so whats the point i still have plenyty of reaspect of the white youth so dont go pushing your luck with me. and i am white and proud and no on can stop me being whaite and proud 311

M: what proud of killing one of your own comrades charlie? how are special branch doing these days? still chatting? you have no respect charlie. you are a 'race traitor' by your own definition. you are a grass, a murderer and a has been. where did it all go wrong? oh yeah, with stabbing someone to death. how about that interview? And what’s 3/11 complete knackered?

*‘Charlie Poole’ *311 = Ku Klux Klan you compelte spaka head!!!!!!!! and yoiu cant call me that so dont i have never talked to specil branch or red skems do you belive every thing you read in the news paper. you are point less and discrace to the white race 311


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 21, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> a chat with 'charlie poole' aka 'charlie' sargent:
> 
> M: hey charlie can i interview you online?
> *‘Charlie Poole’ *NO YOU CANT YOu little spaka head i wont talk to red scum so dont meaage me any more you gay little mugs ok. its pointless trying to stop my gigs as well 14/88
> ...



Up there with Lady Astor/Churchill and Oscar Wilde!


----------



## steeplejack (Aug 21, 2013)

BTF is a very interesting read if you haven't got round to it, would thoroughly recommend it. It's quite a unique book really, mixing hard politics to tell a particular narrative and debunk a lot of myths, with Ealing comedy type stuff..."a right hook planted him in the geraniums" etc. The book is also unsparingly honest about failure which is a change.

I'd like to see a sequel some day examining the move away from the streets into the politics of the IWCA, and what did or didn't work there. Whilst BTF convincingly demonstrates that the BNP spent roughly a decade largely taking beatings from AFA. losing the argument almost totally on the streets, there is a book to be written probably starting with the Isle of Dogs by election and chronicling (why) the BNP were such a threat for a while electorally, and why the Last century Left / its successors have failed so abysmally in response.

I was pretty naive about anti-fascism when I joined these boards ten (!!!!) years ago, suffice it to say that i really got an education on it from many posters on here in that period, and BTF is pretty effectively a summary of everything learned in that time. Needless to say a complete revolution in my views and thinking on anti-fash stuff has lead to a pretty fundamental change in my thinking about politics generally.


----------



## steeplejack (Aug 21, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> a chat with 'charlie poole' aka 'charlie' sargent:
> 
> M: hey charlie can i interview you online?
> *‘Charlie Poole’ *NO YOU CANT YOu little spaka head i wont talk to red scum so dont meaage me any more you gay little mugs ok. its pointless trying to stop my gigs as well 14/88
> ...


 

I imagine that you logged out of FB and haven't been back since, after such a thoroughly convincing intellectual demolition. Looks like you collapsed like one of Fred Dibnah's chimneys.


----------



## malatesta32 (Aug 21, 2013)

(i think the point is that mr charlie is in denial!!!!)


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Aug 21, 2013)

Some great quotes for your book though.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Aug 21, 2013)

audiotech said:


> Well, according to a steward at the game he reported that some guy 'kept producing a C18 flag in spurts (not being draped, as others were doing with Union flags) and everything revolved around him' Lying was he?


 
As you gear yourself up for what appears to be yet another ill-judged crusade, pause for just a moment to consider why despite intense media scrutiny this individual that 'everything' supposedly 'revolved around' has never been found and is still unidentified nearly two decades later?

 Now if that fails to provoke even the tiniest element of doubt, then, by all means, plough on...


----------



## malatesta32 (Aug 21, 2013)

i like this particular example of delusion: 
'i still have plenyty of reaspect of the white youth'


----------



## malatesta32 (Aug 21, 2013)

steeplejack said:


> I imagine that you logged out of FB and haven't been back since,


i, like may others here, are not under the illusion that C18 were the 'terror outfit' they were made out to be by certain 'antifascist organisations.' read BTF to find examples of C18 being effective (you wont find any!)


----------



## steeplejack (Aug 21, 2013)

your humour detector appears to be defective.


----------



## tony.c (Aug 21, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> (i think the point is that mr charlie is in denial!!!!)


Was he known as 'Charlie' because of his taste for/dealing in Colombian marching powder?


----------



## tony.c (Aug 21, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> Just seen this on a mate's bookshelf. Is it any good then? Must be controversial if this thread is over 150 pages!


Borrow it from your mate. It's certainly worth reading if you have any interest in ant-fascism. I found it a bit difficult to read because of the small print, and mainly read just the 'action' bits, skipping through the 'political' stuff first time round. But I've recently read the whole book.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Aug 21, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> Just seen this on a mate's bookshelf. Is it any good then? Must be controversial if this thread is over 150 pages!


 
I'd thoroughly recommend reading the book. It's a page turner.

This thread is more like the extra bits you get on DVDs that appeal to the die-hards and spotters. Which is also great, but in a different way.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 21, 2013)

tony.c said:


> Borrow it from your mate. It's certainly worth reading if you have any interest in ant-fascism. I found it a bit difficult to read because of the small print, and mainly read just the 'action' bits, skipping through the 'political' stuff first time round. But I've recently read the whole book.


 
Did the 'political' stuff become political to you on second read?


----------



## tony.c (Aug 21, 2013)

I skipped through the accounts of the disagreements and intrigues between Red Action and anarchists, NMP, etc within AFA. I did read them second time, but didn't find them particularly interesting.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 21, 2013)

Because they were political or 'political'? Or...


----------



## tony.c (Aug 21, 2013)

I just didn't find them that interesting. I am interested in politics, and the politics within anti-fascism, and would support the RA line. I understand that BTF is about what happened within AFA, as well as what they did though, and that we need to learn from what has happened in the past.

Edit: I probably didn't find the internal arguments that relevant also because I think RA were the main force within AFA, and the stance of other groups were largely irrelevant. But I realise they would have been of consequence at the time.


----------



## audiotech (Aug 22, 2013)

Joe Reilly said:


> As you gear yourself up for what appears to be yet another ill-judged crusade, pause for just a moment to consider why despite intense media scrutiny this individual that 'everything' supposedly 'revolved around' has never been found and is still unidentified nearly two decades later?
> 
> Now if that fails to provoke even the tiniest element of doubt, then, by all means, plough on...


No "crusade", just pointing out words from a steward who was there. On reflection, his words about someone wearing "red overalls" whilst he "spurts" a C18 flag does enter into the realm of the bizarre.


----------



## audiotech (Aug 22, 2013)

past caring said:


> Had you been present to witness all this it would doubtless have been passed on as evidence of Millwall being a Fash stronghold. You arse.


 
Don't be daft.


----------



## Red Storm (Aug 31, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> i've just asked whether the book's true. your reluctance to give a straight answer to a straight question doesn't fill me with confidence in the book's accuracy. yeh there's things in there that *could* have happened - all the stuff about bugging fash meetings, for example - but everyone knows that intelligence officers don't give away their tactics, techniques or procedures. if you do then the enemy gets wise to them. take for example the time when harry's place had a bit about how they tracked down the location of a pub the bnp used. since then the number of photos of socials and so on on bnp websites and blogs has delined significantly. so to me what's in nr doesn't ring true. is it true? or is it cobblers?


 


Red Storm said:


> I can vouch for the bugging of fash meetings. I have heard the originals and have a number of copies of bugged Manchester and Salford BNP meetings from around the late 80s to the mid 90s.
> 
> I should really put them on the Anti-Fascist Archive


 
They are now on the Anti-Fascist Archive:

http://antifascistarchive.com/2013/08/31/intelligence-gathering-bugged-bnp-meetings/ 


Trying to put up the last remaining material I have.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 31, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> i, like may others here, are not under the illusion that C18 were the 'terror outfit' they were made out to be by certain 'antifascist organisations.' read BTF to find examples of C18 being effective (you wont find any!)


 
they or their mates did a lot of graffiti, i recall kentish town station being covered in c18 graff back in 92, 93. this would be round the time the fash met at the assembly rooms. there was also a lot of fash graffiti round the west kentish town estate in those days


----------



## bignose1 (Aug 31, 2013)

Red Storm said:


> They are now on the Anti-Fascist Archive:
> 
> http://antifascistarchive.com/2013/08/31/intelligence-gathering-bugged-bnp-meetings/
> 
> ...


 
Ive just had a quick glimpse before I had to go out. The last recording i'snt an interview with Holocaust denier, cemetery desecrator, Mark Jones of the BNP, its actually a taped interview with a suspected War Criminal from one of the Baltic States( auxillary police battallion). His name escapes me at the moment but he was one of a not insignificant number we( Searchlight/All Party WCG) were investigating around the time. This character was living in Nottingham.


----------



## Red Storm (Aug 31, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> Ive just had a quick glimpse before I have to go out. The last recording i'snt an interview with Holocaust denier, cemetery desecrator and Mark Jones of the its actually a taped interview with a suspected War Criminal from one of the Baltic States( auxillary police battallion). His name escapes me at the moment but he was one of a not insignificant number we( Searchlight/All Party WCG) were investigating around the time. This character was living in Nottingham.


 

Ah okay. 

Let me know if the name comes back to you.


----------



## bignose1 (Aug 31, 2013)

Red Storm said:


> Ah okay.
> 
> Let me know if the name comes back to you.



Antas Derzinksas (amended)


----------



## framed (Aug 31, 2013)

Who could forget that name?


----------



## bignose1 (Aug 31, 2013)

framed said:


> Who could forget that name?


 
I went to a stag do over there...where?..that'd be tallin..


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 31, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> I went to a stag do over there...where?..that'd be tallin..


Where there's a Vilnius there's a way.


----------



## JTG (Aug 31, 2013)

DaveCinzano said:


> Where there's a Vilnius there's a way.


I find this post lacking in intellectual Riga


----------



## Fedayn (Aug 31, 2013)

DaveCinzano said:


> Where there's a Vilnius there's a way.


 

Lett that be a lesson to you.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 31, 2013)

Eesti does it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 31, 2013)

these baltick puns are trakai


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 31, 2013)

as long as we're not cutting kaunas then we can continue in this vein

i just like to see it done properly


----------



## FNG (Aug 31, 2013)

There was a flag at the lansdowne road match that was misidentified as C18 in some of the media.The Eastern Daily Press( a norwich based paper) looked into it as it was a cross of st george with the legend norwich across the central bar and a vaguely militaristic graphic in the left hand corner.turned out it was the west ham crest and belonged to a west ham fan that resided in norwich at the time. By all acounts he was a bit of a billy no mates.

E2a this one 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 the Norwich ident is barely prominent in this one, moreso in the ones with fans chucking things off the upper stand if memory serves


----------



## bignose1 (Sep 1, 2013)

You make me feel like danzig....................Lechs Gdansk.....

....come on....songs and Baltic region theme.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Sep 1, 2013)

we're gonna Rostock down to Electric Avenue


----------



## bignose1 (Sep 1, 2013)

Red Storm said:


> Ah okay.
> 
> Let me know if the name comes back to you.


Amongst others there's two that stick out. Antanas Gecevicius and Antas Derzinskas....... with the former living in Edinburgh and the other Nottingham.

( amended post)


----------



## bignose1 (Sep 1, 2013)

I beg your pardon...I never promised you a Puttgarden


----------



## bignose1 (Sep 1, 2013)

The Derzinskas character lived for quite a while in Oldham after coming to the UK after the war. He later moved to Notts where (from memory) another alleged war criminal (whose name came up after our initial investigations - late 80's) had/was working as a bus driver


----------



## framed (Sep 1, 2013)

Can't get Ogre losing you, no matter what I try Tartu...


----------



## malatesta32 (Sep 1, 2013)

fetch the pun police, this has gone on far enough! and who is the main culprit of these puntastic obscenities?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 1, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> fetch the pun police, this has gone on far enough! and who is the main culprit of these puntastic obscenities?



Not a narva thread cop


----------



## framed (Sep 1, 2013)

Let latvia lesson to us all...


----------



## bignose1 (Sep 1, 2013)

framed said:


> Let latvia lesson to us all...


She loves  u baby.   B


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 1, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> She loves  u baby.   B


 *Estonia silence*


----------



## bignose1 (Sep 2, 2013)

DaveCinzano said:


> *Estonia silence*


Just back from lime street st. God we were toss. That's Liverpools season done.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 2, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> Just back from lime street


----------



## Red Storm (Sep 2, 2013)

Quiet a large comment on the Anti-Fascist Archive calling the _Making of Red Action _pamphlet sectarian, workerist claptrap.

I've asked the poster to expand. 

See here


----------



## Red Storm (Sep 2, 2013)

By the way, how did Red Action respond to the "workerist" label?


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 2, 2013)

Red Storm said:


> Quiet a large comment on the Anti-Fascist Archive calling the _Making of Red Action _pamphlet sectarian, workerist claptrap.
> 
> I've asked the poster to expand.
> 
> See here


What an odd comment s/he made.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 2, 2013)

Red Storm said:


> Quiet a large comment on the Anti-Fascist Archive calling the _Making of Red Action _pamphlet sectarian, workerist claptrap.
> 
> I've asked the poster to expand.
> 
> See here




you should just have said 'what's it all about alfie?'


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 2, 2013)

Alfie Noakes was  a derek and clive thing, so could have just called him a cunt.


----------



## bignose1 (Sep 2, 2013)

una palanga blanca


----------



## Fedayn (Sep 2, 2013)

As an aside *Warrington bombing linked to Red Action group* (BBC Headline not my view)

7:30pm tonight on BBC One North West


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 2, 2013)

Fedayn said:


> As an aside *Warrington bombing linked to Red Action group*
> 
> 7:30pm tonight on BBC One North West




Will be interesting to see from whence this 'theory' emanates.


----------



## framed (Sep 2, 2013)

There's been sustained attempts in the last few years by various journalists to link Red Action to the Warrington bombing... It'll be interesting to see what the evidence and sources are for this story?


----------



## belboid (Sep 2, 2013)

framed said:


> It'll be interesting to see what the evidence and sources are for this story?


looks like sweet fa from the released clip -


----------



## audiotech (Sep 2, 2013)

One for the archive Red Storm:


----------



## TopCat (Sep 3, 2013)

Bignose said: "
Rubbish..trying hard to stop a worthwhile book on AFA/RA would have been a cuntish thing...having reservations about how it was going to slander a good friend and comrade while his kids are still grieving his passing is another. Ive told you...you choose not to believe it is my contact with Searchlight ended in 1994. I have never spoken with anyone connected with the current two factions about BTF/RA/AFA for nearly two decades. Something you just cant handle."

A digested summary of the shifting position stated by Bignose himself on this very(long) thread would be good and certainly illuminating. Has anyone the strength and time to trawl back over it?


----------



## LiamO (Sep 3, 2013)

http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/anyone-know-whatever-happened-to-mark-benjamin.314592/

that should read _Andrew_ Benjamin btw.



LiamO said:


> ... and while I'm at it.
> 
> If anyone knows or is in contact with any ex-Fash from the late 1980's (reformed or unrepenting, foot soldiers or generals) who might be up for being interviewed please let me know by PM





LiamO said:


> Just to be clear. The book I an researching will be an oral history of a quite specifc period/event - the campaign to Shut down Cutdown/the 'Main Event' in 1989/90.
> 
> It will be something along the lines of this http://www.amazon.co.uk/Two-Sides-Hell-Vincent-Bramley/dp/184454821X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1378205761&sr=1-1&keywords=two sides of hell
> 
> ...


----------



## sunny jim (Sep 21, 2013)

I know I'm pretty impatient but getting BTF on a kindle framework would be a wicked move, I'm still waiting for my copy ordered last Tuesday but just got No Retreat in seconds on Kindle. Mind you, having an actual book will be worth waiting for I suppose. Just hurry up.


----------



## love detective (Sep 21, 2013)

it should have been out as an ebook long before now but the process of doing it has been delayed & interupted for a variety of reasons (plus various other political complications relating to Hoffmangate etc..) - it will be done at some point though

you should have ordered your copy from the IWCA and it would have been with you by now


----------



## sunny jim (Sep 24, 2013)

Yaay! Its arrived! Bye bye interweb, for a few days at least!


----------



## framed (Sep 25, 2013)

*Ian Stuart Donaldson and a legacy of hate*
*http://www.channel4.com/news/ian-stuart-donaldson-a-legacy-of-hate*

*C4 News celebrates the 'legacy' of ISD. AFA's harrassment of the shit-house, which drove him out of London, is considered significant enough that it had to be acknowledged by C4 News.*


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 25, 2013)

framed said:


> *Ian Stuart Donaldson and a legacy of hate*
> *http://www.channel4.com/news/ian-stuart-donaldson-a-legacy-of-hate*
> 
> *C4 News celebrates the 'legacy' of ISD. AFA's harrassment of the shit-house, which drove him out of London, is considered significant enough that it had to be acknowledged by C4 News.*


Wheeler alert!


----------



## love detective (Sep 25, 2013)

It's because the piece was done by Brian Whelan that AFA gets a mention

He was meant to have been doing a biography of him at some point


----------



## framed (Sep 25, 2013)

love detective said:


> It's because the piece was done by Brian Whelan that AFA gets a mention
> 
> He was meant to have been doing a biography of him at some point



ah right, that explains it. Brian seems generally sympathetic to AFA.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Sep 27, 2013)

love detective said:


> It's because the piece was done by Brian Whelan that AFA gets a mention
> 
> He was meant to have been doing a biography of him at some point


 

It's rather a shame then that the one brief quote he does supply is from No Retreat, and though these things are often deemed subjective, it still manages to be inaccurate on two counts. "The event that seemed to give Stuart the real horrors was when he went out early one morning to buy a newpaper and a pint of milk and was hit across the head by a large mancunian wielding a Lucozade bottle."


Now if there was one event that gave him 'genuine nightmares', as he later confessed to sympathisers, it was when 30-40 anti-fascists mobilised - for a private party in his honour in Hatfield at - 2 am!

He had left just moments before. Had he  still been there, he would, he felt, have 'been killed'.

And as for the 9am - 9.30 assault, the weapon of choice was not a Lucozade bottle but a discarded wine bottle picked out of a bin. As it happens Stuart has sufficient presence of mind at the time to try and draw his attackers into the arc of CCTV cameras by backing into the railway station foyer, so wasn't totally traumatised at the time. Nonetheless it seems, perhaps understandably, to have been the final straw and he bailed some days later.


----------



## love detective (Sep 27, 2013)

yeah surprising he used the account from NR rather than the one in BTF - although remember we did speculate after that interview whether he had actually read the book he was reviewing/interviewing about!


----------



## LiamO (Sep 27, 2013)

Joe Reilly said:


> And as for the 9am - 9.30 assault, the weapon of choice was not a Lucozade bottle but a discarded wine bottle picked out of a bin.



A cheeky little fruity number with a delicate tang of oak?


----------



## Joe Reilly (Sep 27, 2013)

LiamO said:


> A cheeky little fruity number with a delicate tang of oak?


 'A delicate tang of oak?' 

It might well have done especially after it was smashed on Stuart's great wooden dome.


----------



## sunny jim (Sep 27, 2013)

I do remember Lucozade bottles being the weapon of choice of AFA operatives against the fash.


----------



## LiamO (Sep 27, 2013)

like this... but with a really handy little plastic sleeve that kept it from cutting ones hand... apparently. 





not like that modern plastic shite


----------



## LiamO (Sep 27, 2013)

although you could never top a Grolsh






makes me wince just looking at it


----------



## LiamO (Sep 27, 2013)

tin of this and a heavy-duty carrier bag... lethal _and_ legal


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 27, 2013)

You never got these tips from Oz Clarke or Delia.


----------



## sunny jim (Sep 27, 2013)

Yeah little Lucozade bottles with the plastic sleeves, so I've heard.


----------



## audiotech (Sep 27, 2013)

LiamO said:


> although you could never top a Grolsh....



I recently found out that the little round plastic rings when removed from the bottle are a good cheap option to hold a strap firmly on a guitar.


----------



## bignose1 (Sep 28, 2013)

audiotech said:


> I recently found out that the little round plastic rings when removed from the bottle are a good cheap option to hold a strap firmly on a guitar.


Yeah that guy from Foo Fighters has one on his guitar.. wassis name er...Dave ?


----------



## tony.c (Sep 28, 2013)

LiamO said:


> tin of this and a heavy-duty carrier bag... lethal _and_ legal


I was more upmarket. I had a can of Waitrose Lobster Bisque in a Waitrose carrier bag in the first joint operation of the London squads in Lewisham in 1977, after fascists had attacked a paper sale and knocked a swp woman unconscious the week before. That was organised by the then Industrial Organiser (who subsequently left the SWP and became a manager in local authority). We received congratulations and thanks from Tony Cliff afterwards. Relations with the swp leadership went downhill later of course.


----------



## tony.c (Sep 28, 2013)

LiamO said:


> A cheeky little fruity number with a delicate tang of oak?


 
No a full bodied red with strong overtones of determination.
Oh were you talking about the wine?


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 28, 2013)

tony.c said:


> I was more upmarket. I had a can of Waitrose Lobster Bisque in a Waitrose carrier bag in the first joint operation of the London squads in Lewisham in 1977, after fascists had attacked a paper sale and knocked a swp woman unconscious the week before. That was organised by the then Industrial Organiser (who subsequently left the SWP and became a manager in local authority). We received congratulations and thanks from Tony Cliff afterwards. Relations with the swp leadership went downhill later of course.



Deason?

Tony which branch were you in? I was over in Harlesden/Acton at the time


----------



## bignose1 (Sep 28, 2013)

tony.c said:


> I was more upmarket. I had a can of Waitrose Lobster Bisque in a Waitrose carrier bag in the first joint operation of the London squads in Lewisham in 1977, after fascists had attacked a paper sale and knocked a swp woman unconscious the week before. That was organised by the then Industrial Organiser (who subsequently left the SWP and became a manager in local authority). We received congratulations and thanks from Tony Cliff afterwards. Relations with the swp leadership went downhill later of course.


One of the more bisqueier operations....


----------



## LiamO (Sep 28, 2013)

tony.c said:


> I was more upmarket. I had a can of Waitrose Lobster Bisque in a Waitrose carrier bag...



Posh Bastard!


----------



## malatesta32 (Sep 28, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> One of the more bisqueier operations....



yes and for purely shellfish reasons! for cod's sake, he wouldnt move a mussel usually as he is hard of herring.


----------



## tony.c (Sep 28, 2013)

The39thStep said:


> Deason?
> 
> Tony which branch were you in? I was over in Harlesden/Acton at the time


 
Yeah Deason. He went to Marxism and asked for volunteers to defend the Lewisham paper sale which had been attacked by the fascists for several weeks running. Inner East London and Outer East London squads with comrades from Glasgow and Aberdeen attended the paper sale that Saturday, mingling with shoppers and took out the fascists when they arrived.
Deason later denounced the squads. We reckoned it was because MoF and the Hatfield lads beat his football team at the Skegness Rally football tournament in 1979(?). His team were all decked out in specially bought red strips. The Hatfield lot turned out for the Final hungover, in cutoff jeans and old tshirts and won the keg of beer which was the prize. Their supporters then demolished the goalposts in true Scotland Wembley style! 
Deason after leaving the swp became manager of a sports centre in Wales apparently.

I was in Inner East London district then. I knew some of the guys from NW London,  Andy Z. (the Animal), John Boyle (who died this year), and  Mal (Babyface), the Finchley brothers, and one or two others. I was originally from NW London.


----------



## tony.c (Sep 28, 2013)

LiamO said:


> Posh Bastard!


I bought it especially. I reckoned the OB wouldn't think it was an offensive weapon if I was stopped and searched, and if I got nicked the Court would throw the case out - 'in possession of a tin Of Lobster Bisque with intent'!!
I actually ate it after (destroying the evidence!), but didn't think much of it. I prefer Heinz Cream of Tomato.


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 29, 2013)

tony.c said:


> Yeah Deason. He went to Marxism and asked for volunteers to defend the Lewisham paper sale which had been attacked by the fascists for several weeks running. Inner East London and Outer East London squads with comrades from Glasgow and Aberdeen attended the paper sale that Saturday, mingling with shoppers and took out the fascists when they arrived.
> Deason later denounced the squads. We reckoned it was because MoF and the Hatfield lads beat his football team at the Skegness Rally football tournament in 1979(?). His team were all decked out in specially bought red strips. The Hatfield lot turned out for the Final hungover, in cutoff jeans and old tshirts and won the keg of beer which was the prize. Their supporters then demolished the goalposts in true Scotland Wembley style!
> Deason after leaving the swp became manager of a sports centre in Wales apparently.
> 
> I was in Inner East London district then. I knew some of the guys from NW London,  Andy Z. (the Animal), John Boyle (who died this year), and  Mal (Babyface), the Finchley brothers, and one or two others. I was originally from NW London.



Bloody hell. John ( and Dot) were amongst my best mates but I haven't  seen them for about fifteen years.Used to work with John,loved him to bits. I moved to Manchester 25 years ago and long lost the habit of going back down. Yes knew all them and Johns brother Keiran, the Dunnes,etc. In fact got attacked by Mal when he caught me in bed with his girlfriend Bernie ( who died)  Knew Joe Reilly as well. Do you remember Moonface? We always had a team in the football ,never won it the nearest we got was being beat by some Swedes in the final.Didn't Zebrowski ( who also denounced the squads when he became district organiser) move to Poland?


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## Joe Reilly (Sep 29, 2013)

[quote="The39thStep, post: 12585605, member: 39737]In fact got attacked by Mal when he caught me in bed with his girlfriend Bernie ( who died)  [/quote]


You might want to consider rephrasing?


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## Sweet FA (Sep 29, 2013)

Aww it's all gone


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## The39thStep (Sep 29, 2013)

Joe Reilly said:


> [quote="The39thStep, post: 12585605, member: 39737]In fact got attacked by Mal when he caught me in bed with his girlfriend Bernie ( who died)




You might want to consider rephrasing?[/quote]

Ooops.She sadly passed away in unconnected circumstances some years after that incident.


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## redcogs (Sep 29, 2013)

tony.c said:


> Yeah Deason. He went to Marxism and asked for volunteers to defend the Lewisham paper sale which had been attacked by the fascists for several weeks running. Inner East London and Outer East London squads with comrades from Glasgow and Aberdeen attended the paper sale that Saturday, mingling with shoppers and took out the fascists when they arrived.
> Deason later denounced the squads. We reckoned it was because MoF and the Hatfield lads beat his football team at the Skegness Rally football tournament in 1979(?). His team were all decked out in specially bought red strips. The Hatfield lot turned out for the Final hungover, in cutoff jeans and old tshirts and won the keg of beer which was the prize. Their supporters then demolished the goalposts in true Scotland Wembley style!
> Deason after leaving the swp became manager of a sports centre in Wales apparently.
> 
> I was in Inner East London district then. I knew some of the guys from NW London,  Andy Z. (the Animal), John Boyle (who died this year), and  Mal (Babyface), the Finchley brothers, and one or two others. I was originally from NW London.



As well as being the industrial organiser for the swp and being involved in anti fascist activities  and running the right to work campaign for a time, John Deason was an able trade union activist in the communications union (NCU), where he was sacked by BT for being an effective militant.  He subsequently fought and won an industrial tribunal against BT, who had to pay out significant compensation.  

i didn't know him personally, but his record as a socialist and agitator seemed to me to have been pretty good.

Of course, it is fair to state that thereafter he settled in Wales and became a manager for a local authority (in Leisure), but it probably wasn't a simple cut and run betrayal of principle?  i'd give him credit where its due.


----------



## audiotech (Sep 29, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> Yeah that guy from Foo Fighters has one on his guitar.. wassis name er...Dave ?



HAha, Grohl. I'm not a fan.


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## The39thStep (Sep 29, 2013)

> *John Boyle 1951-2012*
> by Nick Grant
> Many Socialist Worker readers will be saddened to hear of the death on New Year’s Day of teacher comrade John Boyle.
> 
> ...


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## LiamO (Sep 29, 2013)

tony.c said:


> I bought it especially. I reckoned the OB wouldn't think it was an offensive weapon if I was stopped and searched, and if I got nicked the Court would throw the case out - 'in possession of a tin Of Lobster Bisque with intent'!!



ingenious bastard

That was the exact rationale behind the Lychees (well that and the fact that hey came in proper heavyweight tins long after all the europeans had switched to lightweight aluminium ones)... never thought of th eposh angle though. Fair play.


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## tony.c (Sep 30, 2013)

The39thStep said:


> Bloody hell. John ( and Dot) were amongst my best mates but I haven't  seen them for about fifteen years.Used to work with John,loved him to bits. I moved to Manchester 25 years ago and long lost the habit of going back down. Yes knew all them and Johns brother Keiran, the Dunnes,etc. In fact got attacked by Mal when he caught me in bed with his girlfriend Bernie ( who died)  Knew Joe Reilly as well. Do you remember Moonface? We always had a team in the football ,never won it the nearest we got was being beat by some Swedes in the final.Didn't Zebrowski ( who also denounced the squads when he became district organiser) move to Poland?


I was at John's funeral. Must be losing track of time, I thought it was this year, but was January 2012. There was a big turnout, must have been over 200. John and Dot have a son, he must be about 15 and is the spitting image of John. MoF and a number of the Hatfield mob were there. Good wake afterwards.
I was in the same branch as Moonface, I last bumped into him in Hackney about 8 years ago. Andy Z did move to Poland. Must be the only Pole going in the opposite direction!


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## tony.c (Sep 30, 2013)

The39thStep said:


> You might want to consider rephrasing?


 
Ooops.She sadly passed away in unconnected circumstances some years after that incident.[/quote]

I knew Bernie and her family well. We lived in the same houseshare for a while. She died as the result of an asthma attack. You probably knew Nora too, she died from cancer in 2011.


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## tony.c (Sep 30, 2013)

redcogs said:


> his record as a socialist and agitator seemed to me to have been pretty good.
> 
> i'd give him credit where its due.


I don't want to derail this thread too much, and I recognise JD's contribution as an IO, but Andreas Nagliatti was a good IO too, and he went on to become an 'Industrial Relations' Manager for Fiat Italy, and Roger Rosewell also a good IO went on to become an adviser to Dame Shirley Porter.

Edit: I don't remember JD being involved in the ant-fascist stuff apart from asking for volunteers to go to the Lewisham paper sale in '76 (he didn't go himself though). When the Right To Work March came to London (1978?) there was a NF march in Shoreditch. The Inner East London District wanted to ask the RTW marchers to support  the counter-mobilisation, but JD wouldn't allow it, claiming it was a diversion. A lot of the RTW marchers turned out regardless.


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## The39thStep (Sep 30, 2013)

tony.c said:


> Ooops.She sadly passed away in unconnected circumstances some years after that incident.



I knew Bernie and her family well. We lived in the same houseshare for a while. She died as the result of an asthma attack. You probably knew Nora too, she died from cancer in 2011.[/quote]

All very sad news.


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## redcogs (Sep 30, 2013)

tony.c said:


> I don't want to derail this thread too much, and I recognise JD's contribution as an IO, but Andreas Nagliatti was a good IO too, and he went on to become an 'Industrial Relations' Manager for Fiat Italy, and Roger Rosewell also a good IO went on to become an adviser to Dame Shirley Porter.
> 
> Edit: I don't remember JD being involved in the ant-fascist stuff apart from asking for volunteers to go to the Lewisham paper sale in '76. When the Right To Work March came to London (1978?) there was a NF march in Shoreditch. The Inner East London District wanted to ask the RTW marchers to support  the counter-mobilisation, but JD wouldn't allow it, claiming it was a diversion. A lot of the RTW marchers turned out regardless.


Like you tony.c, i'm torn over whether or not to derail the thread, but like an unscratched itch.. i have to offer an observation.

There appear to be several former swp comrades hanging about on here.  Presumably, since moving on, some will have developed lives somewhat different to being the permanently dedicated rabble-rousers that they were.

If i'm correct on this, i'd guess that some among that number will today hold managerial functions, which in all probability are a contradiction of their previously held socialist principles.  You offer  Rosewell and Nagliatti as convincing examples of sell out types.  But, to be fair, those individuals have pretty decisively moved on to different terrain - and must wrestle with themselves as a consequence.  Deason,(and maybe several others) on the other hand, may or may not be in such a category - dependent i suppose on how one politically regards employment within local authority administration.  Such matters are a bit of a minefield though aren't they?  As something of a non aligned non active armchair type myself, i wouldn't want to be drawn too deeply into passing judgement on how people who are no longer holding on to actual political affiliations ought to behave, or how they should be politically regarded.  

Also, as i recall it,  such  matters were never that straightforward even within 'the revolutionary party'.  As an example, i recall from my swp days (a couple of decades since), that it was not uncommon to run across party members who held managerial roles as jobs, (and were also Unison members).  Whenever such matters were raised for debate, citing the evident problem of split loyalties, there were definite attempts to slap down any meaningful discussion.

i suppose what i'm saying, in a very wishywashyliberal way, is that it is too easy to judge people when they are no longer engaging directly in the class struggle - and maybe instead, their record from when they were properly involved ought to be the important factor?  Not all former activists are necessarilly traitors to the honourable cause of human emancipation are they?


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## TopCat (Sep 30, 2013)

This thread meanders all over the place so I would not call the above a derail. If only we could free the thread of the wince inducing puns!

As for the above post, I think this could make a good discussion on another thread. <says an ex Class War type who now has been a manager of sorts for a decade>


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## DaveCinzano (Sep 30, 2013)

TopCat said:


> As for the above post, I think this could make a good discussion on another thread. <says an ex Class War type who now has been a manager of sorts for a decade>



Let's run it up the flagpole and see if it flies. Any volunteers to action this?


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## TopCat (Sep 30, 2013)

DaveCinzano said:


> Let's run it up the flagpole and see if it flies. Any volunteers to action this?


You!


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 30, 2013)

TopCat said:


> You!


YOU'RE NOT THE BOSS OF ME


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## TopCat (Sep 30, 2013)

it was a simple delegation.


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## DaveCinzano (Sep 30, 2013)

TopCat said:


> it was a simple delegation.


That's no way to talk about the Unite reps


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## tony.c (Sep 30, 2013)

redcogs. I don't have a problem with former 'revolutionaries' becoming managers. It's their decision. It's not something I would do. But as you say, although the swp used to be against members taking management (and full time union) positions, many teacher members (including Mrs Cliff) were Heads of Department which are management positions as I understand it.
But my reservations about Deason were also for other reasons which I don't really want to go into on here.


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## Red Storm (Sep 30, 2013)

tony.c said:


> redcogs. I don't have a problem with former 'revolutionaries' becoming managers. It's their decision. It's not something I would do. But as you say, although the swp used to be against members taking management (and full time union) positions, many teacher members (including Mrs Cliff) were Heads of Department which are management positions as I understand it.
> But my reservations about Deason were also for other reasons which I don't really want to go into on here.



I don't really see why it's a big issue either.


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## Pickman's model (Sep 30, 2013)

tbh i'd be more concerned about professed revolutionaries taking management roles than former ones. in fact i'm not too keen on anyone taking management roles.


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## Pickman's model (Sep 30, 2013)

TopCat said:


> it was a simple delegation.


so many delegations are


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## redcogs (Sep 30, 2013)

tony.c said:


> redcogs. I don't have a problem with former 'revolutionaries' becoming managers. It's their decision. It's not something I would do. But as you say, although the swp used to be against members taking management (and full time union) positions, many teacher members (including Mrs Cliff) were Heads of Department which are management positions as I understand it.
> But my reservations about Deason were also for other reasons which I don't really want to go into on here.



Fair enough on Deason tony.c.  

And just for the record, i'm not some groupie for JD, i just remember being quite impressed by his public image at the time when i had initially come into party activity. 

The swp has had housing and social work managers, and HoD's as you have pointed out.  i've often wondered where senior academics sit on the spine which runs from lower to higher order.  i certainly remember raising an eyebrow when i became aware that one such comrade did not discourage students from using the socially stratifying term of address when in conversation, even in social circumstances, (ie "Professor")!   How sad is that.  Presumably it will become 'comrade professor' at the dawn of the new jerusalem..


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## Pickman's model (Sep 30, 2013)

redcogs said:


> i've often wondered where senior academics sit on the spine which runs from lower to higher order.


on the fence


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## Pickman's model (Sep 30, 2013)

redcogs said:


> Fair enough on Deason tony.c.
> 
> The swp has had housing and social work managers, and HoD's as you have pointed out.  i've often wondered where senior academics sit on the spine which runs from lower to higher order.  i certainly remember raising an eyebrow when i became aware that one such comrade did not discourage students from using the socially stratifying term of address when in conversation, even in social circumstances, (ie "Professor")!   How sad is that.  Presumably it will become 'comrade professor' at the dawn of the new jerusalem..


comrade professor SIR i think you'll find


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## TopCat (Sep 30, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> tbh i'd be more concerned about professed revolutionaries taking management roles than former ones. in fact i'm not too keen on anyone taking management roles.


It's a bit different in the UK compared to elsewhere. Professed revolutionaries so often do not amount to much. Lets face it, the revolutionary left here are not sitting on top of arms caches in cammo gear. A revolutionary state of mind? Is that what it amounts to? If so, marching into the institutions is not as much of a absurd contradiction as it would be elsewhere.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 30, 2013)

TopCat said:


> It's a bit different in the UK compared to elsewhere. Professed revolutionaries so often do not amount to much. Lets face it, the revolutionary left here are not sitting on top of arms caches in cammo gear. A revolutionary state of mind? Is that what it amounts to? If so, marching into the institutions is not as much of a absurd contradiction as it would be elsewhere.


i just don't like management where i work, is all.


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## The39thStep (Sep 30, 2013)

Red Storm said:


> I don't really see why it's a big issue either.



Thank heavens


----------



## tony.c (Oct 1, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> i just don't like management where i work, is all.


I never liked managers, although some of them were ok as people. But things are different these days, in the 80's and even 90's frontline managers could often be fairly friendly and reasonable. Many in the public sector did see their role as improving services. Also there was an element of 'empire building' where they wanted to expand the staffing in their sections to boost their own status, and possibly their management grade.
These days with ongoing cuts they are judged on how much they can 'save' financially, which inevitably means cutting jobs and hourage and dealing more harshly with their staff. They have to implement decisions from those above them rather than making their own decisions.
Anyway this should probably be in a thread of it's own.


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## Red Storm (Oct 1, 2013)

The39thStep said:


> Thank heavens


----------



## malatesta32 (Oct 1, 2013)

tony.c said:


> redcogs. I don't have a problem with former 'revolutionaries' becoming managers. It's their decision. It's not something I would do. But as you say, although the swp used to be against members taking management (and full time union) positions, many teacher members (including Mrs Cliff) were Heads of Department which are management positions as I understand it.
> But my reservations about Deason were also for other reasons which I don't really want to go into on here.



my branch had a pretty strict nothing higher than shop stewards level (in 2 of the major local factories). one guy got booted out cos he went for the SU president. sound geezer and could actually have been pretty effective in that position.


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## Casually Red (Oct 1, 2013)

LiamO said:


> tin of this and a heavy-duty carrier bag... lethal _and_ legal



less trinny and susannah but even more lethal was this bad boy





and when lobbed from a passing car ..at an unsuspecting Linfield/Rangers supporter for example..could be absolutely lethal


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## sunny jim (Oct 1, 2013)

This might have been touched on before on this super long thread but isnt it weird how the 43 Group, who were no different to RA/AFA in their militant anti fascist approach and methods, are lauded as hero's while AFA/RA are vilified by mainstream press as well as large sections of the left. Vidal Sassoon was with the 43 Group and even the Daily Mail gives up good write up for his actions of violently fucking the black shirts off the streets. Maybe its a time thing the same as violent riots happening miles away from the UK generally getting a better write up than they do if they happen here. And maybe RA/AFA will be treated as heros in years to come as well, but I wont be holding my breath.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-Sassoon-cut-Britains-fascist-thugs-size.html


----------



## barney_pig (Oct 1, 2013)

sunny jim said:


> This might have been touched on before on this super long thread but isnt it weird how the 43 Group, who were no different to RA/AFA in their militant anti fascist approach and methods, are lauded as hero's while AFA/RA are vilified by mainstream press as well as large sections of the left. Vidal Sassoon was with the 43 Group and even the Daily Mail gives up good write up for his actions of violently fucking the black shirts off the streets. Maybe its a time thing the same as violent riots happening miles away from the UK generally getting a better write up than they do if they happen here. And maybe RA/AFA will be treated as heros in years to come as well, but I wont be holding my breath.
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-Sassoon-cut-Britains-fascist-thugs-size.html


No comments being accepted, and all apparently deleted... Surely nobody was indelicate to mention the mail frontpage of the 15th January 1934?


----------



## Red Storm (Oct 1, 2013)

sunny jim said:


> This might have been touched on before on this super long thread but isnt it weird how the 43 Group, who were no different to RA/AFA in their militant anti fascist approach and methods, are lauded as hero's while AFA/RA are vilified by mainstream press as well as large sections of the left. Vidal Sassoon was with the 43 Group and even the Daily Mail gives up good write up for his actions of violently fucking the black shirts off the streets. Maybe its a time thing the same as violent riots happening miles away from the UK generally getting a better write up than they do if they happen here. And maybe RA/AFA will be treated as heros in years to come as well, but I wont be holding my breath.
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-Sassoon-cut-Britains-fascist-thugs-size.html



I think the 43 Group gets a good write up now because it was a group mostly made of Jews fighting back against fascism. So it's easy for paint it without raising and questions about class. 

But AFA/RA were made up of mostly white working class people. Plus RA was political outside of anti-fascism, so it's not single issue and easy to put in a box. I think that's why AFA is often dismissed with simple words such as thugs and hooligans. 

I think Nigel Copsey has seen beyond simplifications of AFA/RA though.


----------



## malatesta32 (Oct 1, 2013)

yes i was about say if you look at how 43 Group were marketed - with the star of david - and you look at afa - with the skinheads with hammers stickers etc - one is a 'religious group' fighting against persecution whereas AFA were a bunch of squaddist renegades, class war anarchists, casuals and red skinheads. 43 Group can be seen as self-defence, AFA didnt disguise their militancy. this in terms of press etc.


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## malatesta32 (Oct 1, 2013)

well the malatesta' book, in tandem with BTF, will go someway to redressing this balance.


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## sunny jim (Oct 1, 2013)

Red Storm said:


> I think the 43 Group gets a good write up now because it was a group mostly made of Jews fighting back against fascism. So it's easy for paint it without raising and questions about class.
> 
> But AFA/RA were made up of mostly white working class people. Plus RA was political outside of anti-fascism, so it's not single issue and easy to put in a box. I think that's why AFA is often dismissed with simple words such as thugs and hooligans.
> 
> I think Nigel Copsey has seen beyond simplifications of AFA/RA though.



I think its also to do with glorifying the past demonstrations and riots but vilifying present day ones, unless of course they happen miles away. The media and the liberal left are all guilty of this.


----------



## Red Storm (Oct 1, 2013)

sunny jim said:


> I think its also to do with glorifying the past demonstrations and riots but vilifying present day ones, unless of course they happen miles away. The media and the liberal left are all guilty of this.



Yeah definitely. I think AFA's pamphlet _Heroes or Villains?_ was making the same case.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 1, 2013)

43 group were explicitly not anti-state . They wanted the state to act and criminalise fascism. They can be seen as pro-state anti-fascists who were just making up a temporary shortfall in the states reaction/behaviour/motivation. No so with those who came later. (And that is not to denigrate the physical and moral bravery of 43 group members).


----------



## tony.c (Oct 1, 2013)

sunny jim said:


> This might have been touched on before on this super long thread but isnt it weird how the 43 Group, who were no different to RA/AFA in their militant anti fascist approach and methods, are lauded as hero's while AFA/RA are vilified by mainstream press as well as large sections of the left. Vidal Sassoon was with the 43 Group and even the Daily Mail gives up good write up for his actions of violently fucking the black shirts off the streets. Maybe its a time thing the same as violent riots happening miles away from the UK generally getting a better write up than they do if they happen here. And maybe RA/AFA will be treated as heros in years to come as well, but I wont be holding my breath.
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-Sassoon-cut-Britains-fascist-thugs-size.html


The Radio 4 program, A Rage in Dalston, was repeated on Radio 4 last year. Unfortunately it doesn't seem to be available on the R4 online Archives. It is worth listening to if it is on again. It ended with one of the 43 Group members recalling how years later while on a Saturday night out with his wife, he recognised a former leading BUF activist on the same bus. He waited until the fascist went to the bus platform, then came up behind him, grabbed the handrails and swung both feet forcefully into the fash's back, propelling him off the moving bus and leaving him in a crumpled heap in the road. His wife wasn't amused!

When we were involved in weekly confrontations with the NF in Brick Lane in the mid-70s, a former 43 Group member, Joe G., would sometimes turn out with us. He was a big guy, but seemed old to us then, though he was probably only in his mid-fifties.
After one 'political discussion' with some fash, we could hear police sirens approaching. We started moving off, when Joe said to hang on a minute. He went back to the prone fash, and started booting one of them again! We had to go back and drag him away. When we regrouped in a pub, Joe pulled out his wallet with pictures of his grandchildren and told us we had to keep the world safe for kids like these. He said he liked us because we did what we said, unlike that Paul Holborrow who was all talk. The only thing was though that we should take iron bars and break their arms and legs next time!


----------



## sunny jim (Oct 1, 2013)

tony.c said:


> The Radio 4 program, A Rage in Dalston, was repeated on Radio 4 last year. Unfortunately it doesn't seem to be available on the R4 online Archives. It is worth listening to if it is on again. It ended with one of the 43 Group members recalling how years later while on a Saturday night out with his wife, he recognised a former leading BUF activist on the same bus. He waited until the fascist went to the bus platform, then came up behind him, grabbed the handrails and swung both feet forcefully into the fash's back, propelling him off the moving bus and leaving him in a crumpled heap in the road. His wife wasn't amused!
> 
> When we were involved in weekly confrontations with the NF in Brick Lane in the mid-70s, a former 43 Group member, Joe G., would sometimes turn out with us. He was a big guy, but seemed old to us then, though he was probably only in his mid-fifties.
> After one 'political discussion' with some fash, we could hear police sirens approaching. We started moving off, when Joe said to hang on a minute. He went back to the prone fash, and started booting one of them again! We had to go back and drag him away. When we regrouped in a pub, Joe pulled out his wallet with pictures of his grandchildren and told us we had to keep the world safe for kids like these. He said he liked us because we did what we said, unlike that Paul Holborrow who was all talk. The only thing was though that we should take iron bars and break their arms and legs next time!




A Rage in Dalston can be heard here
http://norfolkunity.blogspot.co.uk/2008/04/rage-in-dalston.html


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## Pickman's model (Oct 1, 2013)

sunny jim said:


> A Rage in Dalston can be heard here
> http://norfolkunity.blogspot.co.uk/2008/04/rage-in-dalston.html


no, it can't. try the link.


----------



## sunny jim (Oct 1, 2013)

Bollocks, sorry folks I should have checked the link was working before I posted it here.


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## krink (Oct 1, 2013)

tony.c said:


> The Radio 4 program, A Rage in Dalston, was repeated on Radio 4 last year. Unfortunately it doesn't seem to be available on the R4 online Archives. It is worth listening to if it is on again. It ended with one of the 43 Group members recalling how years later while on a Saturday night out with his wife, he recognised a former leading BUF activist on the same bus. He waited until the fascist went to the bus platform, then came up behind him, grabbed the handrails and swung both feet forcefully into the fash's back, propelling him off the moving bus and leaving him in a crumpled heap in the road. His wife wasn't amused!
> 
> When we were involved in weekly confrontations with the NF in Brick Lane in the mid-70s, a former 43 Group member, Joe G., would sometimes turn out with us. He was a big guy, but seemed old to us then, though he was probably only in his mid-fifties.
> After one 'political discussion' with some fash, we could hear police sirens approaching. We started moving off, when Joe said to hang on a minute. He went back to the prone fash, and started booting one of them again! We had to go back and drag him away. When we regrouped in a pub, Joe pulled out his wallet with pictures of his grandchildren and told us we had to keep the world safe for kids like these. He said he liked us because we did what we said, unlike that Paul Holborrow who was all talk. The only thing was though that we should take iron bars and break their arms and legs next time!



what's the rules on quoting stuff from U75 elsewhere? i want to put these two quotes on my wordpress site.


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## DaveCinzano (Oct 1, 2013)

krink said:


> what's the rules on quoting stuff from U75 elsewhere? i want to put these two quotes on my wordpress site.


Common courtesy would have you tell a person you wished to quote them elsewhere.

Common sense would tell you it's fuck-all to do with any corporate sense of 'urban75'!


----------



## krink (Oct 1, 2013)

DaveCinzano said:


> Common courtesy would have you tell a person you wished to quote them elsewhere.
> 
> Common sense would tell you it's fuck-all to do with any corporate sense of 'urban75'!



i read the faq now

tony.c can i use your quote on me blog please?


----------



## bignose1 (Oct 1, 2013)

is this john boyle  wee lad spent time in manc..went out with a girl called maureen..around late 70's ...jimmy roper...etc..phil T...


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## bignose1 (Oct 1, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> is this john boyle  wee lad spent time in manc..went out with a girl called maureen..around late 70's ...jimmy roper...etc..phil T...


Sorry that was john boyd.....


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## tony.c (Oct 1, 2013)

krink said:


> i read the faq now
> 
> tony.c can i use your quote on me blog please?


Of course you can. This is an open forum, so anyone can read it anyway. I didn't give Joe G's name in full in case there were any repercussions for him, but he probably isn't alive now, if he is he must be in his 90's.
I  only posted this to show that RA and AFA weren't as violent to the fascists as were the Jewish guys in Group 43, for understandable reasons - but not denigrating RA and AFA in any way.


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## krink (Oct 1, 2013)

tony.c said:


> Of course you can. This is an open forum, so anyone can read it anyway. I didn't give Joe G's name in full in case there were any repercussions for him, but he probably isn't alive now, if he is he must be in his 90's.
> I  only posted this to show that RA and AFA weren't as violent to the fascists as were the Jewish guys in Group 43, for understandable reasons - but not denigrating RA and AFA in any way.



cheers mate, i'll send you the link in a private message.


----------



## tony.c (Oct 1, 2013)

OK, btw after suggesting we use iron bars on the fash Joe also said he could get us shooters if we wanted them. We weren't sure if he could get them from his East London criminal contacts (we thought that was the circle he moved in) or Mossad, but we didn't take him up on his offer.


----------



## tony.c (Oct 2, 2013)

It seems the DM might have republished that article because Morris Beckman's book has been republished on 1 July this year. It is well worth reading for anyone involved or interested in militant anti-fascism. I read it when it was first published in 1992, and met Maurice Beckman at a book signing meeting about it.
This is the description on the back of the book:
_In 1945, after risking their lives for King and country, Jewish ex-servicemen and women had every right to believe they had buried fascism forever.
Oswald Mosely decided he could carry on where Hitler and Mussolini had left off. On street corners his fascist speakers would proclaim 'not enough Jews were burned at Belsen'. Something had to be done. Enter the 43 Group. In a ferocious, bloody, yet brilliantly covert five-year campaign, they destroyed the Mosleyites and everything they stood for.
Author Morris Beckman, a founder member, has written the first account of the Group's activities. His breathtaking narrative evokes all the danger, tension and black humour of a time when the war against fascism had moved from the cities of Europe to the streets of London.
With the current resurgence of neo-Nazi activity, this uplifting book highlights for a new generation that fighting fire with fire can sometimes be the only way._

The republished book - The 43 Group: Battling with Mosley's Blackshirts by Morris Beckman - is available from Amazon, from £8.20 including postage. If anyone goes on the Amazon website I would urge you to request that the book is made available on Kindle.
This is the description on the Amazon website:

_Oswald Mosely decided he could carry on where Hitler and Mussolini had left off. On street corners his fascist speakers would proclaim 'not enough Jews were burned at Belsen'. Enter the 43 Group. In a ferocious, bloody and brilliantly covert five-year campaign, they destroyed the Mosleyites. The membership of the Group was almost entirely made up of British servicemen, the original 43 members quickly swelling to more than 300 and including a Battle of Britain ace, a VC winner - and Vidal Sassoon! The Group's philosophy of the '3 D's' - Discuss, Decide and Do it - were quickly manifested on the streets of London, with thousands of fascist meetings and rallies sent packing.
The Group was organised in 'wedges' of a dozen or so. These wedges would attend a BUF rally and at a given signal would storm the speaker's platform, attacking BUF stewards and speaker. The members' military background ensured tight discipline and brutally effective actions. this combined with a number of spies within the fascist ranks, ensured the 43 Group almost always came out on top, closing down two-thirds of all fascist activity in the UK until its' simultaneous demise with organised fascism in Britain in 1950.
As capitalism falters, fascism is gathering strength in Europe today. This book is a timely reminder of how it gathers that strength - and one way of stopping it. _


----------



## malatesta32 (Oct 2, 2013)

a welcome reprint and one of the very few books that promotes militant anti-fascism although Beckman does play down the input by CP members a wee bit. if you only read 3 books read 43 Group, and both versions of BTF!


----------



## tony.c (Oct 2, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> a welcome reprint and one of the very few books that promotes militant anti-fascism although Beckman does play down the input by CP members a wee bit. if you only read 3 books read 43 Group, and both versions of BTF!


 'Both versions' ? Was there another version or do you mean 'No Retreat' which is also well worth reading despite the controversy about some of it.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 2, 2013)

tony.c said:


> 'Both versions' ? Was there another version or do you mean 'No Retreat' which is also well worth reading despite the controversy about some of it.


----------



## malatesta32 (Oct 2, 2013)

brilliant book. strong research and a good 'narrative.'


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 2, 2013)

It's a very worthwhile book but i feel its criticisms of the KPD as too dogmatic, weak understanding of the state, too narrow a workplace focus - doubly odd given the conditions and the weight of numbers of unemployed in its ranks and esp amongst the fighters - that the book makes clear added up to 'failure' are often overlooked in the laudable desire to overturn the rubbish about the KPD allowing the nazis to come to power due to the social fascism thesis.


----------



## tony.c (Oct 2, 2013)

OK thanks butchers, I'll see if I can get a copy of that too.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 2, 2013)

tony.c said:


> OK thanks butchers, I'll see if I can get a copy of that too.


Hang on a sec and i'll upload a copy tony.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 2, 2013)

Here you go.


----------



## audiotech (Oct 2, 2013)

That's generous of you Butchers, as Eve Rovenshaft's book is bloody expensive and grim reading.


----------



## tony.c (Oct 2, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Here you go.


Thanks butchers, downloading it now.


----------



## sunny jim (Oct 2, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Here you go.



Cheers butchers, you're a star


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 2, 2013)

Would've posted it years ago but forgot i had it.


----------



## Red Storm (Oct 2, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Here you go.



Nice one. Popped it on the Anti-Fascist Archive.


----------



## imposs1904 (Oct 2, 2013)

sunny jim said:


> A Rage in Dalston can be heard here
> http://norfolkunity.blogspot.co.uk/2008/04/rage-in-dalston.html



hope the link works.


----------



## Red Storm (Oct 2, 2013)

imposs1904 said:


> hope the link works.



I'll pop that on too.


----------



## Red Storm (Oct 2, 2013)

Does anyone know how to download this video:

http://www.yorkshirefilmarchive.com/film/anti-nf-protest-bradford


----------



## sunny jim (Oct 2, 2013)

imposs1904 said:


> hope the link works.



Nice one imposs1904 . Well found mate!


----------



## tony.c (Oct 2, 2013)

imposs1904 said:


> hope the link works.


Yeah well done imposs1904, I'll listen to that again.


----------



## sunny jim (Oct 3, 2013)

While we're on this sharing tip here's a short (15 mins) about Magdeberg in eastern Germany, where fascists were marching each year and militant anti fascists fighting to stop them. Its called No Pasaran (unimaginative title maybe, but who cares!)


----------



## LiamO (Oct 4, 2013)

Just a wee bump for this post from page 32 of this thread... I have decided to do something along these lines. Anyone who would like to contribute please email me... liamomogarlai@mail.com



LiamO said:


> *Write yer own...*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## sunny jim (Oct 5, 2013)

This should probably go in bands and gigs thread but as it a bit relevant I thought I'd put it here. Angelic Upstarts playing in London 9th November.
https://www.songkick.com/concerts/17789784-angelic-upstarts-at-pipeline


----------



## LiamO (Oct 5, 2013)

sunny jim said:


> This should probably go in bands and gigs thread but as it a bit relevant I thought I'd put it here. Angelic Upstarts playing in London 9th November.
> https://www.songkick.com/concerts/17789784-angelic-upstarts-at-pipeline



I think Mr Mensforth has more than earned his right to have his gig promoted on this thread


----------



## Red Storm (Oct 6, 2013)

I like how the same music from the Beating the Fascists trailer was used the new BBC gangster drama Peaky Blinders


----------



## Joe Reilly (Oct 6, 2013)

tony.c said:


> I  only posted this to show that RA and AFA weren't as violent to the fascists as were the Jewish guys in Group 43, for understandable reasons - but not denigrating RA and AFA in any way.


AFA employed the tactics appropriate to the situation. That included the proportionate level of violence to get the job done. Weaponswere used as required. Spanners, hammers, coshes were used routinely and in cold-blooded way as BTF makes clear. Indeed so chastened were the fascists, that they abandoned the policy of street confrontation _politically_ - which was not the case with ANL MARK 1 or indeed the 43 Group for that matter, which caused tactical withdrawls simply in order to regroup. And come again.


----------



## love detective (Oct 6, 2013)

Red Storm said:


> I like how the same music from the Beating the Fascists trailer was used the new BBC gangster drama Peaky Blinders



Just as the finishing touches were being put to the trailer, was thrilled to hear the same track being used on an episode of The Apprentice


----------



## manny-p (Oct 6, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Here you go.


Thank you Butchers. x


----------



## gawkrodger (Oct 11, 2013)

Quake at the might of the New British Union!

http://newbritishunion.org/wp-cont	ent/uploads/2013/10/SANY0006.jpg


----------



## Red O (Oct 14, 2013)

Front National win by-election in south-east France after the Socialist Party step aside to allow the UMP a free run at stopping them, ahead of local and European elections next year. FN led an opinion poll last week on voting intentions for the European elections, apparently the first time they have ever topped a nationwide poll: www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe/24514843 and www.ft.com/cms/s/0/19ba7958-3437-11e3-8f1d-00144feab7de.html?siteedition=uk#axzz2hgW0ivbe.


----------



## love detective (Oct 16, 2013)

Mr Birchall is quoted in a recent article by Brian Whelan for Vice



> Sean Birchall wrote the book _Beating the Fascists_, detailing how the BNP were physically beaten off the streets in the early 90s. But he says the political vacuum that allows the far right to thrive will continue to throw up racist movements. “The underlying conditions that facilitated the BNP’s rise are still there," he explained, "disillusionment with the neo-liberal centre and a Labour party that has long turned its back on the working class.”
> 
> “Ukip are now partially filling that vacuum in working class political representation... the neo-liberal right and the nationalist right over recent decades have dramatically out-thought the left in terms of political strategy. They have identified tactics, narratives and constituencies, while the left has succeeded in alienating its core constituency of the working class.
> 
> “The EDL was always in any case more symptom, not cause," he continued. "Rather than generating hostility it merely reflects antagonism. There is a counter-strategy however: for those radically opposed to fascism and neo-liberalism to get on the landings and take on the fascists there, by engaging with and responding to working class concerns.”


----------



## Joe Reilly (Oct 17, 2013)

Red O said:


> Front National win by-election in south-east France after the Socialist Party step aside to allow the UMP a free run at stopping them, ahead of local and European elections next year. FN led an opinion poll last week on voting intentions for the European elections, apparently the first time they have ever topped a nationwide poll: www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe/24514843 and www.ft.com/cms/s/0/19ba7958-3437-11e3-8f1d-00144feab7de.html?siteedition=uk#axzz2hgW0ivbe.[/quote
> 
> th


 freedom party topping the poll in Holland too. Before we get too smug about how harmless UKIP really is here is a little taster from the DT message board;  
tintruder
• 20 minutes ago• 4 0

−
+
So European Government Rat Bastards give away the earnings from your hard work to filthy, uneducated, parasite, looter immigrants in order to buy their (illegal) votes, just like our Government Rat Bastards do, here in the USA, huh?
Keep up the pressure on these fools. Do whatever is necessary to remove them from office, and the gene pool too.
Send the feral 3rd world leeches back to the hell-holes they made for themselves and let them fix their own creations rather than move into your greener pastures and ravage them until they look like the crap-holes they left.
Do it before you lose both your history and future. 
Before the animals burn the museums for firewood to cook your pets (or children) with. 
Before they rape your daughters into birthing another generation (but blessed with 50% European intelligence) of feral youth. 
Before your sons can't provide for their families because your leaders fear the hordes more, and give them the resources in trade for their allegiance in oppressing the actual Europeans.
Round up your government oppressors and render them incapable of doing this to you. Send them back to Africa (and the rest of the sources of immigrant criminals) with those they admire so much they are willing to steal from you under color of law to benefit.
.. etc


----------



## sunny jim (Oct 17, 2013)

Joe Reilly said:


> freedom party topping the poll in Holland too. Before we get too smug about how harmless UKIP really is here is a little taster from the DT message board;
> tintruder
> • 20 minutes ago• 4 0
> 
> ...




Burning the museums for firewood!!?? Somebody forgot to take their meds I reckon.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Oct 17, 2013)

sunny jim said:


> Burning the museums for firewood!!?? Somebody forgot to take their meds I reckon.


 
Maybe so. Maybe so. Though it would be a mistake, I would argue, to underestimate the nihilistic hatred that is the driver for, what many increasingly seem to find comfort in describing as the 'right-wing populist' parties.


----------



## sunny jim (Oct 18, 2013)

Hint : museums aren't made of firewood


----------



## framed (Oct 20, 2013)

sunny jim said:


> Hint : museums aren't made of firewood



I''d wager that they'd still burn brightly with a bit of incendiary assistance...


----------



## TopCat (Oct 20, 2013)

Joe Reilly said:


> Maybe so. Maybe so. Though it would be a mistake, I would argue, to underestimate the nihilistic hatred that is the driver for, what many increasingly seem to find comfort in describing as the 'right-wing populist' parties.


Is this something that can be realistically dealt with or opposed by organising W/C people? It seems to me that many with this perception are reasonably well off and won't be receptive?


----------



## krink (Nov 7, 2013)

this picture of an old US paper came up on tumblr so thought people might find it interesting. I don't know anything else about it but maybe people here do.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 7, 2013)

information here http://www.search.freedomarchives.org/search.php?view_collection=7


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Nov 16, 2013)

The BTF book is included in the "Art Turning Left" exhibition in Tate Liverpool (amongst a small selection of books in a reading corner).

Crap phone photo to follow.

ETA - crap photo now added


----------



## love detective (Dec 4, 2013)

There's going to be a feature article on 'Nicky Crane' (it's the 20th anniversary of his death this week) on the BBC Magazine site tomorrow which features contributions from BTF authors


----------



## Demu (Dec 5, 2013)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-25142557

Nicky Crane article


----------



## barney_pig (Dec 5, 2013)

"As his name suggests, he had an unlikely background for a British nationalist and Aryan warrior. He was of Italian heritage through his mother Dorothy, whose maiden name was D'Ambrosio."

No fascists in Italy?

Gary Bushell is such a lying cunt.


----------



## malatesta32 (Dec 5, 2013)

why now?


----------



## articul8 (Dec 5, 2013)

No surprise he took a kicking on the Kilburn High Rd


----------



## love detective (Dec 5, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> why now?



Why is it the 20th anniversary of his death now?


----------



## malatesta32 (Dec 5, 2013)

no, whats so special about him that his 20th anniversary is celebrated. 
taxi for mr crane!


----------



## krink (Dec 5, 2013)

barney_pig said:


> Gary Bushell is such a lying cunt.



amen to that.


----------



## malatesta32 (Dec 5, 2013)

"It was a monumentally, cataclysmically stupid decision," he says. The title of the compilation was Strength Thru Oi! - which Bushell says was intended as a pun on Strength Through Joy.' 

so it was a mistake to have him on the cover AND a mistake to use the title?


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 5, 2013)

barney_pig said:


> "As his name suggests, he had an unlikely background for a British nationalist and Aryan warrior. He was of Italian heritage through his mother Dorothy, whose maiden name was D'Ambrosio."
> 
> No fascists in Italy?
> 
> Gary Bushell is such a lying cunt.




Bushell was well and truly outed in the Matt Collins book


----------



## malatesta32 (Dec 5, 2013)

'Rumours circulated that a prominent football hooligan and far-right activist had hurled a homophobic slur at Crane, who in response had inflicted a severe beating which the victim was lucky to survive.'
any idea who?


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Dec 5, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> no, whats so special about him that his 20th anniversary is celebrated.
> taxi for mr crane!


 
There is a sizeable subculture that seems quite fascinated with him. Hence the "Children of the Sun" novel, and the BBC piece.

ETA: the blog post I wrote on Nicky Crane appearing in a Psychic TV video is still one of the most read things on my site (via people searching for him on google etc).


----------



## malatesta32 (Dec 5, 2013)

ha yeah i read that after some initial confusion over the PTV stuff. i read children of the sun too. eek.
foz, post link to blog!


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Dec 5, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> ha yeah i read that after some initial confusion over the PTV stuff. i read children of the sun too. eek.
> foz, post link to blog!


 
Should be here: http://www.uncarved.org/blog/2004/12/the-strange-case-of-nicola-vincenzio-crane/


----------



## Joe Reilly (Dec 5, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> 'Rumours circulated that a prominent football hooligan and far-right activist had hurled a homophobic slur at Crane, who in response had inflicted a severe beating which the victim was lucky to survive.'
> any idea who?


 
Chubby Chris was one such victim according to reports. Not sure on that occasion if remark was deliberately directed at Crane, or it was a less than cautious remark simply overheard by him but in any event Nicolai took umbrage and other fash present eventually intervened - reluctantly - fearing that Crane was going to actually kill him otherwise.

Ps it turns out that Mr Henderson is no longer with us. A great loss I'm sure.


----------



## laptop (Dec 5, 2013)

Demu said:


> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-25142557
> 
> Nicky Crane article



Has Jon Kelly spent too much time chatting with old Fascists? 

An unusually political piece for the Beeb; not pro-fascist; but the language is somehow infected...


----------



## LiamO (Dec 5, 2013)

laptop said:


> Has Jon Kelly spent too much time chatting with old Fascists?
> 
> An unusually political piece for the Beeb; not pro-fascist; but the language is somehow infected...



?

He actually researched his (decent enough IMO) article and spoke to all parties. Why is this problematic? Should be applauded.

Particularly like the indisputable timeline given for his 'outing' which exposes all the 'I never knew' bollocks (that old right-wingers still come out with to this day) for the absolute, cowardly post-event rationalisation that it is.


----------



## laptop (Dec 5, 2013)

LiamO said:


> ?
> 
> He actually researched his (decent enough IMO) article and spoke to all parties. Why is this problematic? Should be applauded.



Just a comment on the flavour of the language. Not objecting to the content (but I haven't set to to edit it...)


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Dec 5, 2013)

I think that's a really good article especially for the BBC magazine which is normally a bit shit


----------



## TopCat (Dec 5, 2013)

Crane was one scary cunt.


----------



## Divisive Cotton (Dec 6, 2013)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> I think that's a really good article especially for the BBC magazine which is normally a bit shit



It was surprisingly accurate article, both in facts and argument. I've just sent a congratulatory tweet to the journo


----------



## chilango (Dec 6, 2013)

Thought it was a decent read that article.


----------



## LiamO (Dec 6, 2013)

TopCat said:


> Crane was one scary cunt.



Thank God he was Gay... and monosyllabic... 










... otherwise we'd have had to kill him.


----------



## malatesta32 (Dec 6, 2013)

Joe Reilly said:


> Chubby Chris was one such victim according to reports. Not sure on that occasion if remark was deliberately directed at Crane, or it was a less than cautious remark simply overheard by him but in any event Nicolai took umbrage and other fash present eventually intervened - reluctantly - fearing that Crane was going to actually kill him otherwise.
> 
> Ps it turns out that Mr Henderson is no longer with us. A great loss I'm sure.



thanks. one for the archive that. henderson died in pattaya, thailand where he had fled and set up a bar after the collapse of the headhunters trial. as too did steven hickmott of chelsea headhunters etc. they both wrote shit books in total self-denial that they had anything to do with C18, BNP, far right, loyalists etc. they couldnt even admit to their politics and shit out in court. and combat 84? shite, man.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Dec 10, 2013)

"A comment on the article on Nicky Crane"
http://www.searchlightmagazine.com/blogs/searchlight-blog/a-comment-on-the-article-on-nicky-crane

Gable in _"unhappy about someone else doing research into the far right"_ shocker!

(link via the excellent Transpontine blog http://transpont.blogspot.co.uk/2013/12/nicky-crane-and-1980s-se-london-nazis.html )


----------



## tony.c (Dec 10, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> henderson died in pattaya, thailand where he had fled and set up a bar after the collapse of the headhunters trial.


Henderson died of a seizure (possibly drug related) on a friend's settee in London. He had bought a bar in Pattaya with the £25k compensation he got from the Met, after his trial was stopped because of the involvement of undercover police officers. The bar didn't do well as it was largely shunned by expats and tourists wary of the atmosphere created by the visiting far right extremists and hooligans who drank there. His health deteriorated with acohol and drug abuse. The Thai authorities weren't too happy about having him in Thailand, and he was in and out of Thai prisons for immigration offences. He got scepticaemia in his foot which worsened during one prison spell for not having a passport or visa, and his foot  and the toes on the other foot were amputated. There were also  ongoing investigations in Thailand and UK about drug smuggling under the guise of importing football shirts. Some of his former Chelsea associates raised the money for his return ticket to the UK.
http://www.andrew-drummond.com/2013/11/forgotten-chelsea-headhunter-chubby.html

Hickmott was also unwelcome in Thailand and moved to the Phillipines where he ran a bar which had unsavoury allegations about it.
The People - World's vilest Brits 15/5/2005:
http://www.preda.org/en/newsitems/worlds-vilest-brits
He was last seen running a fish and chip shop in Baretta, Phillipines, last year, but that was shut down because of 'unpaid bills'.
http://mmcg968.blogspot.co.uk/2012/02/when-chips-are-down.html


----------



## barney_pig (Dec 10, 2013)

Fozzie Bear said:


> "A comment on the article on Nicky Crane"
> http://www.searchlightmagazine.com/blogs/searchlight-blog/a-comment-on-the-article-on-nicky-crane
> 
> Gable in _"unhappy about someone else doing research into the far right"_ shocker!
> ...


Is gable's rather bizarre claim about the Dennis Nielson case new? Or a rather inept attempt to link the far right with serial killers (and atrotskyist one at that)


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 10, 2013)

Fozzie Bear said:


> "A comment on the article on Nicky Crane"
> http://www.searchlightmagazine.com/blogs/searchlight-blog/a-comment-on-the-article-on-nicky-crane
> 
> Gable in _"unhappy about someone else doing research into the far right"_ shocker!
> ...




Very much 'I know more than you do' and allow me to have a go at Gary O'Shea and by implication AFA  whilst we are about it


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 10, 2013)

barney_pig said:


> Is gable's rather bizarre claim about the Dennis Nielson case new? Or a rather inept attempt to link the far right with serial killers (and atrotskyist one at that)



Read that and I thought that sounds bananas .I was a shop steward for a small adult care home two doors away from Neilsons and when i went to visit I never saw any skinheads hanging around


----------



## malatesta32 (Dec 10, 2013)

tony.c said:


> Henderson died of a seizure etc


brilliant thanks for clarification, was going off details in hooly books etc. colin ward has done a virtual hagiography of him in his various collaborations.
and yuk! 'Hickmott has business interests in the girlie bars but like Newman spends hours pawing the “goods” – vulnerable young girls desperate to earn money.'


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 10, 2013)

The39thStep said:


> Read that and I thought that sounds bananas .I was a shop steward for a small adult care home two doors away from Neilsons and when i went to visit I never saw any skinheads hanging around


He had SWP, militant, CPSA and the BM all popping round at various times if we are to believe all the stories.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 10, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> He had SWP, militant, CPSA and the BM all popping round at various times if we are to believe all the stories.



surprised Cockers wasn't texting him


----------



## LiamO (Dec 10, 2013)

Typical Gable. He cunts Jon Kelly off for actually doing a bit of research by talking to fash/ex-fash and then says ...

_"Maybe some day a writer with a more inquisitive mind will come along and dig a lot deeper, "_ 

I assume by digging a lot deeper he means 'talk to Gerry Gable some more'.

I contacted him over my book. His bizarre reply made me laugh... but his greatest abuse was saved for his old mate Matthew Collins. 

I showed the reply to someone who knew him well back in the day and his view was that it was probably from Mrs Gable rather than Mr. Either that or GG is losing the plot altogether. Either way it was a very strange exchange.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Dec 10, 2013)

I saw Gable speak at something recently and he was a shambling wreck of a man who spent the whole time ranting about fake anti fascist splitters who hated facts lol


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 10, 2013)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> I saw Gable speak at something recently and he was a shambling wreck of a man who spent the whole time ranting about fake anti fascist splitters who hated facts lol



what did Mal say?


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Dec 10, 2013)

The39thStep said:


> what did Mal say?



something mumbled and cryptic about "oor Wullie" getting a christmas job at the sorting office or somthing


----------



## Casually Red (Dec 10, 2013)

tony.c said:


> The People - World's vilest Brits 15/5/2005:
> http://www.preda.org/en/newsitems/worlds-vilest-brits



not trying to derail but one of his associates had a lucky escape not too long back

http://www.sundayworld.com/top-stories/news/they-didn-t-deserve-to-die


----------



## LiamO (Dec 10, 2013)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> I saw Gable speak at something recently and he was a shambling wreck of a man who spent the whole time ranting about fake anti fascist splitters who hated facts lol



Really? Sounds like it may well have been him that wrote to me then. Almost feel sorry for him.... _almost_.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Dec 10, 2013)

I almost did as well almost


----------



## LiamO (Dec 10, 2013)

Don't think he ever recovered from putting his faith in Mr Hayes as the 'voice of reason' in Red Action... or the collective shrug with which RA greeted his _extra-curricular_ activities.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 11, 2013)

I find it bizarre that so many people had faith in this fella for so long.


----------



## LiamO (Dec 11, 2013)

I don't think this is any way as clear cut as 'having faith' in Gable.

Gable/Searchlight_ always_ had their own agenda. Sometimes it co-incided with that of AFA and others. Other times it did not.

We always knew this. So did they. So it was always a macabre dance... a bit like black widows mating... but with each side determined to be the female IYSWIM.

But his decline into paranoid rambling is perhaps a direct result of years of trying to play every side of the fence, of subterfuge and double-dealing. It's a shitty old business.


----------



## malatesta32 (Dec 11, 2013)

The39thStep said:


> what did Mal say?



never had anything to do with searchlight, never met any apart from matt collins. i did email them about 62 group and sonia sent me some stuff on them which was from the 'good old days.' also got a load of issues from the 70s from bignose and they are good. who else had the info at the time? is the narrative something like 'as RA needed a broader front with AFA, AFA needed a strong source of information and searchlight  were the only game in town. they had the info.' is that about right?


----------



## malatesta32 (Dec 11, 2013)

LiamO said:


> But his decline into paranoid rambling is perhaps a direct result of years of trying to play every side of the fence, of subterfuge and double-dealing. It's a shitty old business.



spot on. paranoia is a BIG part of this and with death threats, people 'popping round' with flammable presents, being attacked etc. hardly surprising. hows the book by the way?


----------



## malatesta32 (Dec 11, 2013)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> something mumbled and cryptic about "oor Wullie" getting a christmas job at the sorting office or somthing


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 11, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> never had anything to do with searchlight, never met any apart from matt collins. i did email them about 62 group and sonia sent me some stuff on them which was from the 'good old days.' also got a load of issues from the 70s from bignose and they are good. who else had the info at the time? is the narrative something like 'as RA needed a broader front with AFA, AFA needed a strong source of information and searchlight  were the only game in town. they had the info.' is that about right?


 
 There were other intell sources around , whilst most of them went to Searchlight there were others who were independent. Prob true to say that there was a time when the Searchies had the widest intell but not the only intell.
You won't remember Forewarned a curious publication from a group of  ex CPers  based around a fella called Dave Roberts. There main theory was that fascism was based on the landed gentry and aristocracy . They published names and adresses of loads of NF and BM but even then there was a suspicion that they had links with state services.

Any news of the publication date for your book? Its a bit too late for Xmas presents.


----------



## malatesta32 (Dec 11, 2013)

not out till next year mate but you will be getting one gratis! forewarned was before my time but support for fascism tried to move 'down' and appeal to working class youth - BM, NF footsoldiers etc.  trusting anyone or any information is always going to difficult but it as to be said, facebook of all places is a very good source. you'd be surprised what they give away to alts etc when pissed at night.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 11, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> not out till next year mate but you will be getting one gratis! forewarned was before my time but support for fascism tried to move 'down' and appeal to working class youth - BM, NF footsoldiers etc.  trusting anyone or any information is always going to difficult but it as to be said, facebook of all places is a very good source. you'd be surprised what they give away to alts etc when pissed at night.


 

Facebook is where the Police mainly  get their far right intell from.


----------



## malatesta32 (Dec 11, 2013)

yeah its weird. antifascist alts using the same intell source as plod. digital antifascism eh?


----------



## LiamO (Dec 11, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> hows the book by the way?



It's progressing... slowly. No luck with Fash/ex-Fash contributors yet.

Think it might end up as two books... I'm kinda writing my own book, whilst waiting for others to write their contributions


----------



## malatesta32 (Dec 11, 2013)

charlie sargent exclusive interview! 
http://malatesta32.wordpress.com/


----------



## chilango (Dec 11, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> charlie sargent exclusive interview!
> http://malatesta32.wordpress.com/



Errr....why??? 

Don't wanna be harsh but what was the point in that?


----------



## barney_pig (Dec 11, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> charlie sargent exclusive interview!
> http://malatesta32.wordpress.com/





chilango said:


> Errr....why???
> 
> Don't wanna be harsh but what was the point in that?


a far politer reply than I could manage


----------



## steeplejack (Dec 11, 2013)

politely, malatesta, not your best work.

your blog was a great thing when it had a real target to oppose. I am not sure what tweaking the tail of someone who is, in your own description, "an overweight has-been hooligan and a grass" really achieves.


----------



## Citizen66 (Dec 11, 2013)

> I’m assuming that during all those wasted years spent in prison wondering where it all went wrong you didn’t do the literacy classes?


----------



## belboid (Dec 11, 2013)

steeplejack said:


> politely, malatesta, not your best work.
> 
> your blog was a great thing when it had a real target to oppose. I am not sure what tweaking the tail of someone who is, in your own description, "an overweight has-been hooligan and a grass" really achieves.


something useful could have come from it. for a moment, when the one actual answer began, i thought he may actually say something.  But, naah, one quick, fairly obvious comment and 'fuck off spakka.' You need to stroke a twat like thats ego, tell him he is the big man, unique insights blah blah.  Not tell him off for his spelling


----------



## Citizen66 (Dec 11, 2013)

Contacting him about his past sure as fuck won't make him think he's a has-been.


----------



## steeplejack (Dec 11, 2013)

belboid said:


> You need to stroke a twat like thats ego, tell him he is the big man, unique insights blah blah.



Personally I don't see the point of bothering. He's a lonely, bitter, isolated no mark who should just be left to disappear down the drain of history. It's not as if he has any far-right influence left and not much will be learned from a man who has wasted over half his life in jail and seems little interested in reflecting on the reasons why.


----------



## malatesta32 (Dec 11, 2013)

that was the conversation for bad or for worse
'_The correspondence fizzled out after that. So make of it what you will!'_
what did you expect?


----------



## belboid (Dec 11, 2013)

steeplejack said:


> Personally I don't see the point of bothering. He's a lonely, bitter, isolated no mark who should just be left to disappear down the drain of history. It's not as if he has any far-right influence left and not much will be learned from a man who has wasted over half his life in jail and seems little interested in reflecting on the reasons why.


but he was a notable figure. A good interview would get something out of him, but still show him up for the useless waste of space he always was. Using his own words to show he's shite, rather than your own works much better.


----------



## belboid (Dec 11, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> that was the conversation for bad or for worse
> '_The correspondence fizzled out after that. So make of it what you will!'_
> what did you expect?


You should have chucked it online until you got a better one.  It says as close to nothing as you can get without actually saying nothing, and you dont come out of it that well either.  Pretend it never happened.


----------



## Limerick Red (Dec 11, 2013)

belboid said:


> but he was a notable figure. A good interview would get something out of him, but still show him up for the useless waste of space he always was. Using his own words to show he's shite, rather than your own works much better.


eh, no platform?


----------



## love detective (Dec 11, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> that was the conversation for bad or for worse



I find it bizarre that barely a few days ago you were bemoaning the fact of the existence of a well researched article, written by a socialist, on a dead ex-fascist which featured considered and interesting contributions from fascists, anti-fascists and others along with a host of archival material which was all blended into a decent (if not exactly groundbreaking or new) piece of social and sub-cultural history - you're response to this was 'why' was it done

yet barely a few days later you come out with this


----------



## belboid (Dec 11, 2013)

Limerick Red said:


> eh, no platform?


has to be applied sensibly and appropriately. If, for whatever reason, its not 'appropriate' just pretend it never happened


----------



## LiamO (Dec 11, 2013)

Limerick Red said:


> eh, no platform?



yawn


----------



## Limerick Red (Dec 11, 2013)

LiamO said:


> yawn


you've turned off the celtic match as well so?


----------



## LiamO (Dec 11, 2013)

It's not on RTÉ  thanks be to jaysus.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 11, 2013)

LiamO said:


> I don't think this is any way as clear cut as 'having faith' in Gable.
> 
> Gable/Searchlight_ always_ had their own agenda. Sometimes it co-incided with that of AFA and others. Other times it did not.
> 
> ...


Fair do's, I am still a bit of a bitter fucker over this and was having a dig. Not deserved really.


----------



## malatesta32 (Dec 12, 2013)

belboid said:


> You should have chucked it online until you got a better one.  It says as close to nothing as you can get without actually saying nothing, and you dont come out of it that well either.  Pretend it never happened.



he is stil clearly deluded and in denial. that was the conversation.


----------



## belboid (Dec 12, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> he is stil clearly deluded and in denial. that was the conversation.


And you came out of it as badly as he did


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 12, 2013)

Not sure what the point of the 'interview' was Mal.


----------



## malatesta32 (Dec 12, 2013)

i happened to come into contact with him so carried on this conversation over a month or 2. someone asked me about it so i said i wd put it up. he thinks he still has influence etc and despite all the shit he has gone through he remains a nazi or KKK fan at least.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 13, 2013)

Not your finest hour mal...


----------



## malatesta32 (Dec 16, 2013)

fash hotting it up in sweden
http://edition.cnn.com/2013/12/15/world/europe/sweden-nazi-attack/index.html


----------



## editor (Dec 17, 2013)

Really interesting piece with loads of archive material on the BBC site:

Nicky Crane: The secret double life of a gay neo-Nazi
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-25142557


----------



## articul8 (Dec 17, 2013)

wakey wakey Ed  (ahem, check the thread)


----------



## Limerick Red (Dec 17, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> fash hotting it up in sweden
> http://edition.cnn.com/2013/12/15/world/europe/sweden-nazi-attack/index.html


If you look at the revolutionary Front FB page, ya can see the fash got a bit of a kickin'. 1 stabbed, 2 in hospital, pictures of fash with mashup faces on the RF page.


----------



## past caring (Dec 17, 2013)

editor said:


> Really interesting piece with loads of archive material on the BBC site:
> 
> Nicky Crane: The secret double life of a gay neo-Nazi
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-25142557


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Dec 17, 2013)

Don't tell him Pike


----------



## malatesta32 (Dec 17, 2013)

Limerick Red said:


> If you look at the revolutionary Front FB page, ya can see the fash got a bit of a kickin'. 1 stabbed, 2 in hospital, pictures of fash with mashup faces on the RF page.



well i obviously cant condone that LR!


----------



## chilango (Dec 18, 2013)

Is "Beating the Fascists" available as an ebook anywhere yet?


----------



## malatesta32 (Dec 19, 2013)

more on sweden: 
http://libcom.org/news/sweden-nazis-attack-anti-racist-demonstration-pushed-back-17122013


----------



## malatesta32 (Dec 21, 2013)

courtesy of shirtfront.


----------



## malatesta32 (Dec 21, 2013)

cheeky wee plug for BTF!
http://malatesta32.wordpress.com/2013/12/21/2013-highlights-lowlifes/


----------



## laptop (Dec 21, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> courtesy of shirtfront.



"attacked a cinema queue of coloured people"?

What decade is that/this?


----------



## malatesta32 (Dec 21, 2013)

early 80s i think.


----------



## LiamO (Dec 21, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> cheeky wee plug for BTF!
> http://malatesta32.wordpress.com/2013/12/21/2013-highlights-lowlifes/



" Probably the 2nd best book to be written about militant anti-fascism!" 

No praise like self-praise, Malatesta


----------



## malatesta32 (Dec 28, 2013)

hey up, i think you've invented a 'house style' for anti-fascist videos!


----------



## Limerick Red (Dec 29, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> hey up, i think you've invented a 'house style' for anti-fascist videos!



That video is fuckin terrible, looks more like an EDL/Riot porn vid, what on earth thats meant to achieve I have no idea. Blatantly from the anonymous school of shite!


----------



## LiamO (Dec 29, 2013)

Bit confused here, Mal. Could you expand a bit on what you were hoping to get across?


----------



## malatesta32 (Dec 30, 2013)

i meant that the BTF promo style of using a rapid mix of text, pix and moving image coupled with a rather emotive piece of music is highly effective (i have watched it to inspire me to get on and do stuff several times). i rate it very highly. i saw the slough one as replicating that style.


----------



## krink (Dec 30, 2013)

if i was a frustrated, maybe angry lad/man looking for thrills, that video would be more likely to make me join edl than oppose them it looks like a right laugh, being in a mob, attacking the old bill, smashing shit up...


----------



## Red About Town (Dec 30, 2013)

And I wouldn't have used 20 plus year old AFA footage.


----------



## Riklet (Dec 30, 2013)

anti facists figure for what, 3 seconds at the end... as a bunch of scrawny, masked, flag waving black block twerps.

who ends up looking like the "normal" voice in it?


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 30, 2013)

Riklet said:


> anti facists figure for what, 3 seconds at the end... as a bunch of scrawny, masked, flag waving black block twerps.
> 
> who ends up looking like the "normal" voice in it?


Bingo!


----------



## LiamO (Dec 30, 2013)

In fairness you would not know the big skinhead lashing all around him was AFA unless you already knew him/the video. Sorry Mal, but I have to agree it looks more like an EDL promo than an anti-fascist one.


----------



## malatesta32 (Dec 31, 2013)

i was talking about the form rather than content: i really like that rapid use of stills cut with the music in BTF. and yeah, 'the big skinhead' punching his way thru 8 or so boneheads and winning was Liverpool AFA.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Jan 2, 2014)

chilango said:


> Is "Beating the Fascists" available as an ebook anywhere yet?



There was someone lined up who had put together an attractive package which involved promoting the book, (something the publishers for one reason or another had neglected to do).

Negotiations were sufficiently advanced that planning a new cover was the only hold -up, something it was decided would be prudent after the Hoffman attempt to bully FP into providing details about the authors (their identity and addresses mainly), which they resisted and paid the price, £4,000 to be precise.

Together with the febrile atmosphere online surrounding BTF the petrol bomb through the publishers window led him to the unfortunate conclusion that he might be next.  Hence...


----------



## Limerick Red (Jan 5, 2014)

http://xxx.dailystormer.com / mi5-have-had-file-on-uk-antifa-leader-since-1990/


----------



## Citizen66 (Jan 5, 2014)

Red About Town said:
			
		

> And I wouldn't have used 20 plus year old AFA footage.



Especially with all that recent AFA footage to choose from.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Jan 5, 2014)

Limerick Red said:


> http://xxx.dailystormer.com / mi5-have-had-file-on-uk-antifa-leader-since-1990/



That is clearly mental, so why post it?


----------



## Limerick Red (Jan 5, 2014)

Fozzie Bear said:


> That is clearly mental, so why post it?


yer probably right, just saw it on the news feed of a fash fb profile I have, and thought it was mildly amusing.


----------



## malatesta32 (Jan 6, 2014)

'everyone who hates me is a nonce!' and what a load of other bollocks.


----------



## chilango (Jan 6, 2014)

There seems to be an increasing amount of inane shite being (re)posted on this thread. I'd rather it wasn't. I don't want this turn into "EDL watch" vol.II.

Thanks.


That said it's still preferable to the genuinely saddening row that dominated the early part of the thread.

Oh well.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Jan 6, 2014)

chilango said:


> That said it's still preferable to the genuinely saddening row that dominated the early part of the thread.



What you describe as 'a saddening row' was in fact a prolonged attack on the militant anti-fascist movement from without. The carry on here was preceded by an equally scurrilous attack on the efficacy of AFA and on the integrity of prominent members within it on Indymedia _prior_ to the publication of BTF. The purpose was to prevent the publication of BTF. 

And, let's not forget due to the intense, and probably unprecedented (in the history of anti-fascism anyway) brow-beating of Freedom Press, whether it was published at all was in the balance for months.

After all who but a die-hard opponent of militant anti-fascism would go to such lengths to prevent AFA founding members publishing it's history?

And then who but a embittered and vengeful opponent of militant anti-fascism would treat supposedly fellow anti-fascists in the way that Searchlight photographer David Hoffman did?

It might of course have all been handled differently but to imply that it was some sort of shaming personal feud, is itself, I would argue, a revisionist take on events.

Finally consider the stark implications in the question that ended this 'saddening row' so abruptly. And then let's put the 'more in sorrow than anger' trope to bed.


----------



## chilango (Jan 7, 2014)

Joe Reilly said:


> What you describe as 'a saddening row' was in fact a prolonged attack the militant anti-fascist movement from without. The carry on here was preceded by an equally scurrilous attack on the efficacy of AFA and on the integrity of prominent members within it on Indymedia _prior_ to the publication of BTF. The purpose was to prevent the publication of BTF.
> 
> And, let's not forget due to the intense, and probably unprecedented (in the history of anti-fascism anyway) brow-beating of Freedom Press, whether it was published at all was in the balance for months.
> 
> ...



Joe, I'm not going to disagree with this, I think pretty much all of us are in basic agreement here, and I certainly don't mean to imply that it was a "shaming personal feud". Everything you write above can be true, yet I can still find this saddening.


----------



## lazyhack (Jan 30, 2014)

From latest Popbitch dispatch;

_>> Making NMEs <<
		More Amelia Fletcher news

A writes:
	"The late Steven Wells of the NME
	wrote an article that bands like
	hers ought to be sent to Nazi death
	camps. Amelia sent him a four
	page memo explaining why, as
	the grand-daughter of Jewish
	refugees from Poland, he might
	like to consider his views.

	"Swells sent back a note telling
	her to fuck off. In capitals."_

I always understood Wells to have been an anti-fascist?


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 30, 2014)

Swells was SWP. Give me some money for info. Don't try and get involved in their _game _years later.


lazyhack said:


> From latest Popbitch dispatch;
> 
> _>> Making NMEs <<
> More Amelia Fletcher news
> ...


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 30, 2014)

For gods sake, he was expressing a strong dislike in a strong way. It's a commonplace usage.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Jan 30, 2014)

lazyhack said:


> I always understood Wells to have been an anti-fascist?


 

FUCK OFF.


----------



## lazyhack (Jan 30, 2014)

I don't follow music _journalism_, what was he like?


----------



## articul8 (Jan 30, 2014)

a cock


----------



## malatesta32 (Jan 30, 2014)

he was a pretty good stand-up!


----------



## malatesta32 (Jan 30, 2014)

articul8 said:


> a cock



why? he also wrote for brass eye and for other stuff with quantick.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 30, 2014)

lazyhack said:


> I don't follow music _journalism_, what was he like?


This should be part of your vice article background research surely? Or is this it?


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 30, 2014)

articul8 said:


> a cock


Explain why.


----------



## articul8 (Jan 30, 2014)

malatesta32 said:


> why? he also wrote for brass eye and for other stuff with quantick.


always loathed Morrissey and had a thing for Henry Rollins


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 30, 2014)

malatesta32 said:


> why? he also wrote for brass eye and for other stuff with quantick.


That doesn't mean that you're not a cock. In fact etc


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 30, 2014)

articul8 said:


> always loathed Morrissey and had a thing for Henry Rollins


That's it? And no he loved morrissey and hated rollins fake m/c machismo.


----------



## belboid (Jan 30, 2014)

he was very good for giving away his review copies of albums. many of which had clearly never been played


----------



## articul8 (Jan 30, 2014)

Really?  Not how I remember it.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jan 30, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Explain why.


LITTLE STOOLS


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 30, 2014)

lazyhack said:


> I don't follow music _journalism_, what was he like?



Funny as hell.  More than a music journalist too.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 30, 2014)

Him Vs those silly glasgow puddings about class was genius. What were they called? middle class teenage rebellion band.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 30, 2014)

bis  - was the band.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 30, 2014)

Sounds like it's going to be a good piece about hidden anti-semitism in popular alt/indie culture. Well researched.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 30, 2014)

Swells thread btw


----------



## imposs1904 (Jan 30, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Him Vs those silly glasgow puddings about class was genius. What were they called? middle class teenage rebellion band.



yep, but that's middle class in Glasgow. 

Wasn't Swells a swoppie?


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 30, 2014)

imposs1904 said:


> yep, but that's middle class in Glasgow.
> 
> Wasn't Swells a swoppie?


Yep, look up fiend. Look up.


----------



## articul8 (Jan 30, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> That's it? And no he loved morrissey and hated rollins fake m/c machismo.


 
funny kind of love
http://www.3ammagazine.com/3am/morrissey-attack/


----------



## imposs1904 (Jan 30, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Yep, look up fiend. Look up.



Ta, I vaguely remember him. I think I was still a Record Mirror devotee when he was in his heyday at the nme.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 30, 2014)

articul8 said:


> funny kind of love
> http://www.3ammagazine.com/3am/morrissey-attack/


You haven't read it. You googled swells morrissey attack. His gentle apprection of the smiths in the 80s? No.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 30, 2014)

imposs1904 said:


> Ta, I vaguely remember him. I think I was still a Record Mirror devotee when he was in his heyday at the nme.


He was great, he was often wrong but he was great when he was wrong - there's no way that such journalism can happen now -  or have an effect, even tits laughing at it - because it' all spread out - democracy has a price.

edit: such journalism can happen, not just be magnified by monopoly positions.


----------



## chilango (Jan 30, 2014)

Even back in the late 80s early 90s when I read the NME, swells was a bit of a one off. Standing out amongst a crowded field of "journo by numbers".

He simply couldn't exist these days.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 30, 2014)

chilango said:


> Even back in the late 80s early 90s when I read the NME, swells was a bit of a one off. Standing out amongst a crowded field of "journo by numbers".
> 
> He simply couldn't exist these days.


I think that period was anything but "journo by numbers" - and still he stood out. I've recently been looking at classic rock journo stuff from the 70s and early 80s - it's hideous. So people like swells were normal for lots of people. People on MM. Enough to keep them publishing it.

edit: which is a long winded of saying that he could. Not on that platform.


----------



## chilango (Jan 30, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> I think that period was anything but "journo by numbers" - and still he stood out. I've recently been looking at classic rock journo stuff from the 70s and early 80s - it's hideous. So people like swells were normal for lots of people. People on MM. Enough to keep them publishing it.
> 
> edit: which is a long winded of saying that he could. Not on that platform.



I dunno, maybe I'm remembering later stuff, (Madchester to Britpop basically), but Swells really leapt from the page as "different" from the indistinguishable writing that seemed to increasingly dominate.

But it was a long time ago, my memory is undoubtedly hazy.

But becoming a journo now? As we all know from the commentariat epic there is background spec and predictable path to follow.

Ah well.

Journalism by all or none at all! or something....


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 30, 2014)

chilango said:


> I dunno, maybe I'm remembering later stuff, (Madchester to Britpop basically), but Swells really leapt from the page as "different" from the indistinguishable writing that seemed to increasingly dominate.
> 
> But it was a long time ago, my memory is undoubtedly hazy.
> 
> ...


Yep, but the winnowing process of the IPC was excellent.


----------



## articul8 (Jan 30, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> You haven't read it. You googled swells morrissey attack. His gentle apprection of the smiths in the 80s? No.


 
I skimmed it - didn't seem very appreciative to me.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 30, 2014)

articul8 said:


> I skimmed it - didn't seem very appreciative to me.


So no, no examples.


----------



## Idris2002 (Jan 30, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> I think that period was anything but "journo by numbers" - and still he stood out. I've recently been looking at classic rock journo stuff from the 70s and early 80s - it's hideous. So people like swells were normal for lots of people. People on MM. Enough to keep them publishing it.
> 
> edit: which is a long winded of saying that he could. Not on that platform.



This is what he ended up doing in the states. Worth reading, if you have time:

http://www.philadelphiaweekly.com/n...ient-38416404.html?page=1&comments=1&showAll=



> I'm writing these notes in the ER blitzed off my tits on Vicodin and synthetic heroin. Outside in the corridor some poor bastard who got crushed by a bowling ball stacking machine is screaming like a baby with Tourette's.
> "Aaaaargh! Ah fuck! Ah! Jesus fuck! Oh God! _Aaaaaaaaaaaaargh_!"
> 
> I should be experiencing compassion but instead I'm feeling disappointed. I've been brought up by American TV to expect the stabbed, the gut-shot and the Mafia-kneecapped to be fistfighting with the gangbangers, the crack addicts and the self-mutilating anorexic Goth chicks in ER waiting rooms. Instead there's just lots of very fat people feeding McDonald's to even fatter children.
> ...


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 30, 2014)

So to ask, swells, was he _really_ anti-fascist?


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 30, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> This is what he ended up doing in the states. Worth reading, if you have time:
> 
> http://www.philadelphiaweekly.com/n...ient-38416404.html?page=1&comments=1&showAll=


That whole series was brilliant. Me vs it, no winners.


----------



## Idris2002 (Jan 30, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> So to ask, swells, was he _really_ anti-fascist?



To quote the man himself, ""Aaaaargh! Ah fuck! Ah! Jesus fuck! Oh God! _Aaaaaaaaaaaaargh_!""


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Jan 30, 2014)

Re Swells/anti fascism - I didn't realise that Swells was in the SWP (actually, I _may_ have read up on that years ago, but totally forgot about it).  it's mentioned in this Graun obit here: http://www.theguardian.com/music/2009/jun/29/obituary-steven-wells

The paragraph in question is this:



> Defining Steven's legacy is hard; his energy, intelligence and wit were a huge influence on me, certainly. His generosity to people he liked - other writers, bands, friends - belied his (self-created) image as a rude, aggressive ranter. As a freelance journalist and a Socialist Workers party member, Swells was always on the side of the underdog, which, at the NME in the 1980s, took the form of some very confused, lost and talented young men and women.



I found someone on the Punk 77 forum having a bit of a go at Swells re SWP/ANL business (have omitted the unpleasantries toward Swells at the end):



> I hated the way he always used to bang on about the SWP doing this and that when it came to anti-fascism in the early 90's when they were doing anything but.
> 
> He was part of that wee crew in the music press in the late 80's/ early 90's who indulged in the revisionism that the ANL/SWP routinely did.
> 
> Claiming that they smashed Blood and Honour at Waterloo Station etc when they protested'peacefully'(and safely)behind a police corden.



My opnion?  I always thought Swell's anti-fascism to be genuine (even if he was a Swappie)...maybe there's stuff online that counters this?  (Will have a look online later on this one).


----------



## rekil (Jan 30, 2014)

I can't find his piece on the Bradford Riots but lots and lots of great stuff turns up.



> There's a band here in Philly called Mischief Brew who are undoubtedly fantastic human beings because they sing about how Jesus was a commie and how Nazis and capitalists are bastards. But they sound like Death Cab for Cutie being pulled on a giant shit chariot by a pack of worm-ridden, three-legged dogs wearing disgustingly stained dung-coloured dog dungarees and the obligatory red-coloured bandanas around their necks. And stupid hand-knitted Tibetan-style hippy twat-hats with earflaps. So tell me, why do so many righteous and right-on bands look and sound like a dung baguette?



Have we gone soft on football's fascists?


> Take FourFourTwo magazine's December 2006 one-on-one interview with Paolo Di Canio, where the Mussolini-worshipping, straight arm salute-throwing, self-described fascist was asked to answer questions sent in by readers. According to the version of the article published on the FourFourTwo website, not a single reader wanted Di Canio to explain his oft expressed affection for Benito Mussolini - the fascist dictator of Italy, whose support of Adolf Hitler led to the extermination of an estimated 8,000 Italian Jews.
> 
> Instead Di Canio was asked: "In your autobiography you talk about making the ultimate tiramisu. What's the secret?" (This is the same biography in which Di Canio described Mussolini as "basically a very principled, ethical individual" who was "deeply misunderstood").
> 
> ...


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 30, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> This is what he ended up doing in the states.



He ended up living two blocks away from me.


----------



## past caring (Jan 31, 2014)

If only he'd known....


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 31, 2014)

past caring said:


> If only he'd known....



I saw him in the deli a couple of times, felt like saying hello, then felt too intimidated.  His writing suggested that he was a rather prickly individual.


----------



## malatesta32 (Jan 31, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> That doesn't mean that you're not a cock. In fact etc



hmmm ... think there was a lot more to him than just being a cock. just written something about ihm and atilla etc. poetry, politics, stand-up, journalism, comedy writing etc. his interviews were amusing.


----------



## Nice one (Jan 31, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> For gods sake, he was expressing a strong dislike in a strong way. It's a commonplace usage.



if only he'd had some kind of hand signal


----------



## rekil (Feb 1, 2014)

Amelia Fletcher OBE is a little bit class enemy tbf.



> In 1993, Fletcher completed a D.Phil. in economics at the University of Oxford titled 'Theories of Self-Regulation'. In 2001, she was appointed Chief Economist and Senior Director of Mergers at the Office of Fair Trading and in 2008 took on the additional role of head of mergers. She left in April 2013, to become Professor of Competition Policy at the University of East Anglia.
> 
> Fletcher was appointed OBE in the 2014 New Years Honours list for services to Competition and Consumer Economics.



Her dad was an 'advertising guru' so he can fuck off and all.


----------



## malatesta32 (Feb 1, 2014)

are there decent music journos? lester bangs? greil marcus? legs mcneill?


----------



## phildwyer (Feb 2, 2014)

malatesta32 said:


> are there decent music journos? lester bangs? greil marcus? legs mcneill?



From the classic days of the NME: Kent, Murray, Parsons, Burchill, Penman, Morley.


----------



## Nice one (Feb 2, 2014)

ian penman is still doing good writing


> At the end of a numb day spent with Weight’s snap-happy Lego of statistics, I put on Miles Davis’s _Kind of Blue_ in an attempt to really hear it again, to catch the original lure through all the intervening time-fuzz. I say ‘original’, but by the time I came to it _Kind of Blue_ was already 15 years old – it’s harder still to imagine how it signified in 1959. How can something so feathery and frosty and rapt still cause such deep shock? It may be hard to believe, now that it’s become an everywhere gastropub soundtrack, but hearing music like this for the first time could be a dizzying, even upsetting experience. Yes, it contains a sense of hard-won joy – but also sharp overtones of siege and fear, loss and regret. If _Kind of Blue_ was a specifically modern achievement, it’s in part because the players were unafraid of the deafening silence at the edge of their sound. There were darker, more jagged emotions under the elegant façade, something beyond hot trends and cool shades. I instinctively distrust any over-reliance on the word ‘soul’ in music criticism, but it’s the only word that comes to mind here, a code word for all sorts of dreams and difficulties. For anyone back then, 1959 or 1974, raised in a UK household where neither introspection nor exuberance were madly encouraged, where home life was a cramped, stifling affair, and where you didn’t have a readymade language for certain unruly feelings, music like this could really melt the inherited chip of ice in the heart. It still can.


----------



## phildwyer (Feb 2, 2014)

Nice one said:


> ian penman is still doing good writing



He was my favorite.  I'm glad to hear he's still around, he went very quiet during the late '80s, 90s and '00s.


----------



## Nice one (Feb 2, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> He was my favorite.  I'm glad to hear he's still around, he went very quiet during the late '80s, 90s and '00s.



the whole article, well worth a read. http://www.lrb.co.uk/v35/n16/ian-penman/even-if-you-have-to-starve


----------



## phildwyer (Feb 2, 2014)

Nice one said:


> the whole article, well worth a read. http://www.lrb.co.uk/v35/n16/ian-penman/even-if-you-have-to-starve



Really excellent stuff, even if it's not quite clear which are Penman's ideas and which are from the book he's reviewing.

"_Are You Being Served?_ was as much social realism as ribald sitcom."  LOL.

Also, this is good news: "He is working on a novel about music and terror in 1970s Britain."  I hope he actually _is _working on this one.


----------



## malatesta32 (Feb 2, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> "_Are You Being Served?_ was as much social realism as ribald sitcom."  LOL.


yeah cos all gays are like that, all middle aged women are sexually naive and the jokes were shit as well. hateful stuff. bah!


----------



## malatesta32 (Feb 2, 2014)

phildwyer said:


> Really excellent stuff, even if it's not quite clear which are Penman's ideas and which are from the book he's reviewing.
> 
> "_Are You Being Served?_ was as much social realism as ribald sitcom."  LOL.
> 
> Also, this is good news: "He is working on a novel about music and terror in 1970s Britain."  I hope he actually _is _working on this one.



i assume the novel 'about music and terror' deals with the awful shite of tales from topographic oceans and anything by genesis.


----------



## phildwyer (Feb 2, 2014)

malatesta32 said:


> yeah cos all gays are like that, all middle aged women are sexually naive and the jokes were shit as well. hateful stuff. bah!



Social realism deals in ideal types.


----------



## malatesta32 (Feb 2, 2014)

if they are your ideal phil, thats up to you love!!!!!


----------



## Nice one (Feb 2, 2014)

malatesta32 said:


> if they are your ideal phil, thats up to you love!!!!!



to be honest with you mate it's you who seems to be fixating on john inman

From elsewhere:
"During the 1970s, in sitcoms such as Man about the House (1973) and Are You Being Served? (1973), the genre’s study of failure became a high camp exercise in dignity outraged and masculinity disempowered, reaching a high point of slapstick with Michael Crawford’s Some Mothers Do ‘Ave ‘Em (1973) and its catch-phrase ‘Oo, Betty!’...

Similarly, the staff of Grace Bros. department store in Are You Being Served? played out a hugely complex algebra of sexual and social status, the tensions of which could turn a slightly raised eyebrow into the equivalent of a hurled ashtray. Innuendo, itself a consequence of archaism, is everything in this branch of sitcom, a veneering of gentility across plainly sexual banter. Innuendo denotes a repressive society in which formality is the constraint on feelings. Hence, in Are You Being Served? Mrs Slocombe’s glorious riposte to Captain Peacock, who has got hold of her cat during the pitch darkness of a power cut: ‘Captain Peacock! Will you please remove your hand from my pussy!’"


----------



## phildwyer (Feb 2, 2014)

Nice one said:


> to be honest with you mate it's you who seems to be fixating on john inman
> 
> From elsewhere:
> "During the 1970s, in sitcoms such as Man about the House (1973) and Are You Being Served? (1973), the genre’s study of failure became a high camp exercise in dignity outraged and masculinity disempowered, reaching a high point of slapstick with Michael Crawford’s Some Mothers Do ‘Ave ‘Em (1973) and its catch-phrase ‘Oo, Betty!’...
> ...



A mate of mine once interviewed David Croft, the main writer of _Are You Being Served?  _Apparently Croft took major umbridge at the suggestion that Mr. Humphreys was homosexual, and insisted that he was just a "mummy's boy."

Actually it's true that there are surprisingly few explicit references to homosexuality in the scripts--I can only think of one, when Mr. Lucas says "there was a man there but he's gone," and Mr. H. pouts "ooh, story of my life!"  And sometimes Humphreys would join Lucas in ogling Miss Brahms.  I think he's intended to be straight but effeminate, weird as that seems today.


----------



## malatesta32 (Feb 2, 2014)

fair enough. i hate the perry and croft stuff tho,  nostalgic english bollocks.


----------



## Nice one (Feb 2, 2014)

malatesta32 said:


> fair enough. i hate the perry and croft stuff tho,  nostalgic english bollocks.



fair play. The actual quote, _when written out in full,_ was more a statement on british high street fashion afforded to young people at the time rather than crass tv sitcoms: "In the early 1970s when I was a teenager, the high street was still hopeless, a fashion desert: _Are You Being Served?_ was as much social realism as ribald sitcom".


----------



## Red O (Feb 5, 2014)

From the recently launched blog on UKIP by the academics Robert Ford and Matthew Goodwin:

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukipwatch/100256765/meet-ukip-britains-most-working-class-party/:

"Ukip has only recruited most strongly from the Conservative Party since the Cameron-led government began. When Labour were in charge of the country under Tony Blair, and then Gordon Brown, Ukip picked up more support from Labour than from the Tories... This is important, as it provides evidence that this revolt on the Right can mobilise hostility to whoever is in charge. Labour may currently be smiling as Ukip drains support from the Conservatives, but the tables may soon turn if Ed Miliband enters 10 Downing Street in 2015, and his party again becomes the focus of voter resentment.

"Ukip's supporters look more like Old Labour than True Blue Tories. Ukip's supporters tend to be blue-collar, older, struggling economically, and often live in poorer, urban areas, with big pools of support in the Labour heartlands of the North. Middle-class suburbanites do not dominate Ukip. They shy away from it. In fact, Ukip are Britain’s most working-class party. Blue-collar workers are heavily over-represented. Middle-class professionals are scarce. Such voters often express as much hostility to the Conservative party as they do to Labour."


http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/u...-dave-but-they-cant-stand-ed-miliband-either/:

"Ukip doesn't only mobilise a general popular antipathy to the political establishment; they are also winning support by tapping in to specific hostility to the two parties' main leaders. In different ways, both David Cameron, the Etonian Oxford graduate from the stockbroker belt, and Ed Miliband, the Oxford-educated policy wonk from the North London intelligentsia, alienate the struggling blue-collar voters who are defecting _en masse_ to Ukip.

"Both leaders have led lives a million miles away from the life of the average Ukip voter. This makes it hard for them to credibly claim to understand or represent the struggles of these voters who feel insecure, left behind and angry. Nigel Farage is, too, the son of privilege, but his task as a leader is an easier one – he does not need to bargain with voters over what is and is not possible politically, as mainstream leaders must, he needs only to give voice to their anger and channel their demands, something he does very effectively."


----------



## malatesta32 (Feb 5, 2014)

oh dear ... BNP lose out on cash gift: 
http://www.josiahhincks.co.uk/2014/01/31/british-national-party-defeated-in-389000-will-dispute/


----------



## laptop (Feb 5, 2014)

Red O said:


> From the recently launched blog on UKIP by the academics Robert Ford and Matthew Goodwin:
> ...
> http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/u...-dave-but-they-cant-stand-ed-miliband-either/:
> 
> "Ukip doesn't only mobilise a general popular antipathy to the political establishment; they are also winning support by tapping in to specific hostility to the two parties' main leaders. In different ways, both David Cameron, the Etonian Oxford graduate from the stockbroker belt, and Ed Miliband, the Oxford-educated policy wonk from the North London intelligentsia, alienate the struggling blue-collar voters who are defecting _en masse_ to Ukip.



For a blog that declared itself independent, that looks an _awful_ lot like the Telegraph's earlier leaders hoping to get rid of Cameron in favour of some red-blooded Rightist. 

Or, as it turned out, drive him to enunciate the Barclay Brothers' (and Astor) polcies.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 5, 2014)

Nah, Ford and Goodwin are very firmly on the liberal left. And that's who this book is aimed at. That's the labour left of course.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 5, 2014)

Red O said:


> From the recently launched blog on UKIP by the academics Robert Ford and Matthew Goodwin:
> 
> http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukipwatch/100256765/meet-ukip-britains-most-working-class-party/:
> 
> ...



Begs the question why the left fails to engage with what should be their natural homeland


----------



## laptop (Feb 5, 2014)

malatesta32 said:


> oh dear ... BNP lose out on cash gift:
> http://www.josiahhincks.co.uk/2014/01/31/british-national-party-defeated-in-389000-will-dispute/



With a hint of charges to come under electoral law...


----------



## malatesta32 (Feb 5, 2014)

hey up, it's the 'young pretenders'!
http://awesomescreenshot.com/0ce2b5lg67


----------



## Joe Reilly (Feb 6, 2014)

The39thStep said:


> Begs the question why the left fails to engage with what should be their natural homeland



There's also a question of more immediate and not unrelated interest, and that is why according to reports,  both UKIP and the BNP are being allowed an entirely free run in the by-election in Wythenshawe and Sale? 

It's not so much that the Left aren't visibly campaigning for an ideological rival, which is bad enough, but where are the anti-fascists organisations whose reason for being is to stop or at least challenge the anti-immigrant right 'on the streets', even if only in a symbolic way?

Surely it's a new low when the only people to 'confront' Farage and entourage are the BNP?


----------



## articul8 (Feb 6, 2014)

apparently the Green in WandS has some credibility in the area


----------



## malatesta32 (Feb 6, 2014)

ridiculous publicity stunt backfires
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...es-bid-confront-Muslims-object-behaviour.html


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 6, 2014)

articul8 said:


> apparently the Green in WandS has some credibility in the area


According to who? And, probably more importantly, credibility _with who_?


----------



## articul8 (Feb 6, 2014)

According to a friend who grew up round there, and whose mum has worked with him.   Whether that will count for much as against perception of the greens as middle-class do gooding Ken Barlow's is another question.  But hopefully it will mean the election isn't entirely without a challenge to Labour that isn't UKIP/BNP


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 6, 2014)

articul8 said:


> According to a friend who grew up round there, and whose mum has worked with him.   Whether that will count for much as against perception of the greens as middle-class do gooding Ken Barlow's is another question.  But hopefully it will mean the election isn't entirely without a challenge to Labour that isn't UKIP/BNP


He's a lecturer and is off on an eco-protest as we speak. In fact fracking seems to be his central campaign issue. Ex-labour. This is the wrong thread for this i think anyway, given the existing one.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 6, 2014)

Joe Reilly said:


> There's also a question of more immediate and not unrelated interest, and that is why according to reports,  both UKIP and the BNP are being allowed an entirely free run in the by-election in Wythenshawe and Sale?
> 
> It's not so much that the Left aren't visibly campaigning for an ideological rival, which is bad enough, but where are the anti-fascists organisations whose reason for being is to stop or at least challenge the anti-immigrant right 'on the streets', even if only in a symbolic way?
> 
> Surely it's a new low when the only people to 'confront' Farage and entourage are the BNP?


 
Have come across at least five people locally who have gone out of their way to say that they are voting UKIP in the byelection. Normally it wouldn't create any interest.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 6, 2014)

articul8 said:


> According to a friend who grew up round there, and whose mum has worked with him.   Whether that will count for much as against perception of the greens as middle-class do gooding Ken Barlow's is another question.  But hopefully it will mean the election isn't entirely without a challenge to Labour that isn't UKIP/BNP


 
Not entirely sure that currently there is a popular perception of Ken Barlow as a do gooder tbh


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Feb 6, 2014)

indeed I would have thought the Libdems would be thought of in regards to Ken


----------



## nino_savatte (Feb 8, 2014)

The NBU has actually gone and published the names and email addresses of its officers online. I also noticed that they have an officer for The Netherlands. When did the UK annex Holland? Delusions? I've made a copy of the list in case they take the page down.
http://newbritishunion.co.uk/nbu-officers.html


----------



## Limerick Red (Feb 8, 2014)

nino_savatte said:


> The NBU.Delusions?


this would actually of sufficed


----------



## nino_savatte (Feb 8, 2014)

Limerick Red said:


> this would actually of sufficed


Actually _have_. Ta.


----------



## Limerick Red (Feb 8, 2014)

nino_savatte said:


> Actually _have_. Ta.


ah right "reading english",mine was "speakin' english"


----------



## laptop (Feb 8, 2014)

nino_savatte said:


> The NBU has actually gone and published the names and email addresses of its officers online. I also noticed that they have an officer for The Netherlands. When did the UK annex Holland? Delusions? I've made a copy of the list in case they take the page down.
> http://newbritishunion .co .uk/nbu-officers.html



Whose email address is Wicca333 ....

I'd break that link if I were you. I copied and pasted it, so they can find the IP address my ISP gave me for today but not Urbanz.


----------



## Casually Red (Feb 8, 2014)

The39thStep said:


> Begs the question why the left fails to engage with what should be their natural homeland



maybe it isnt that any more, maybe both have _moved on_ and have no further interest or use for each other ?


----------



## nino_savatte (Feb 9, 2014)

laptop said:


> Whose email address is Wicca333 ....
> 
> I'd break that link if I were you. I copied and pasted it, so they can find the IP address my ISP gave me for today but not Urbanz.


I've broken it.


----------



## malatesta32 (Feb 10, 2014)

.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 10, 2014)

This is from a year ago.


----------



## malatesta32 (Feb 10, 2014)

i know i deleted it.


----------



## malatesta32 (Feb 10, 2014)

something a bit newer: 
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/02/what-lies-behind-spectacular-collapse-british-far-right


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 10, 2014)

malatesta32 said:


> something a bit newer:
> http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/02/what-lies-behind-spectacular-collapse-british-far-right


Goodwin makes in his first of 3 points the classic liberal-left mistake of thinking that anti-immigration issues are almost soley the drivers for far-right electoral popularity. In the 2nd he forgets that the BNP engaged in the process of detoxification that he says they failed to undertake - he wrote book largely concerned with it and its results as well which makes it even odder. The third point - UKIP competence - is correct and the BNP recognised this and tried very hard to establish second and third layers of experienced serious organisers during their 2006-2011 battles with UKIP. But it's not a strong enough reason for what's happened over the last few years.

I think we need a new thread for analysis of the far-right btw. It's a bit pointless us just bunging stuff on the end of this one every now and then.


----------



## malatesta32 (Feb 10, 2014)

yeah new thread required. any suggestions BA?


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 10, 2014)

malatesta32 said:


> yeah new thread required. any suggestions BA?


Yeah, first one, _i start it_. And it won't be tonight.


----------



## malatesta32 (Feb 10, 2014)

why, are you actually going out of the house? outrageous!


----------



## Kate Sharpley (Feb 13, 2014)

"Beating the Fascists – a view from the North" by an ex-Liverpool AFA member is now on our website:

"In summary, Beating the Fascists is an important book. It’s definitely part of the Untold Story of both militant anti-fascism and the history of Anti-Fascist Action. But it’s not the full story by any means – trying to get a complete story of AFA from one book is probably unrealistic anyway, given the geographical spread, the number of years, and the political groups involved. Read it, think about what its saying, but be aware of the gaps."

http://www.katesharpleylibrary.net/jsxn47


----------



## krink (Feb 13, 2014)

*wonders if he should get the popcorn in...*


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 13, 2014)

Kate Sharpley said:


> "Beating the Fascists – a view from the North" by an ex-Liverpool AFA member is now on our website:
> 
> "In summary, Beating the Fascists is an important book. It’s definitely part of the Untold Story of both militant anti-fascism and the history of Anti-Fascist Action. But it’s not the full story by any means – trying to get a complete story of AFA from one book is probably unrealistic anyway, given the geographical spread, the number of years, and the political groups involved. Read it, think about what its saying, but be aware of the gaps."
> 
> http://www.katesharpleylibrary.net/jsxn47



What are the gaps?


----------



## malatesta32 (Feb 13, 2014)




----------



## Nice one (Feb 13, 2014)

Kate Sharpley said:


> "Beating the Fascists – a view from the North" by an ex-Liverpool AFA member is now on our website:
> 
> "In summary, Beating the Fascists is an important book. It’s definitely part of the Untold Story of both militant anti-fascism and the history of Anti-Fascist Action. But it’s not the full story by any means – trying to get a complete story of AFA from one book is probably unrealistic anyway, given the geographical spread, the number of years, and the political groups involved. Read it, think about what its saying, but be aware of the gaps."
> 
> http://www.katesharpleylibrary.net/jsxn47



a small vindication


----------



## Kate Sharpley (Feb 14, 2014)

The39thStep said:


> What are the gaps?



On the Northern Network (sources and interpretation): "In Beating the Fascists the accounts of the Northern Network are probably the weakest parts of the book. There are two reasons for this. First, unlike the accounts from London, there is a clear lack of first-hand accounts over the years. Secondly, the history of the Northern Network is skewed to fit the Red Action party line rather than describe how things really were."

On the DAM (sources): "The main anarchist organisation _Beating the Fascists_ mentions is the anarcho-syndicalist Direct Action Movement (DAM). The DAM was an important part of AFA, both in London and nationally, and _Beating the Fascists_ does quite a good job in recognising this. A serious attempt is made to give credit to the DAM – or at least particular DAM members. But it looks like the authors of _Beating the Fascists_ didn’t ask any ex-DAM members for their opinions. Instead, a couple of Albert Meltzer’s remarks in his autobiography, _I Couldn’t Paint Golden Angels,_ seem to be used as a stand-in for the DAM."

[But then written accounts from DAM members (in any field of activity) are not exactly thick on the ground. Call for anarchist accounts: http://www.katesharpleylibrary.net/p8d05b]


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 14, 2014)

Are these gaps or minor quibbles? And why has it taken so long for these minor quibbles to surface?


----------



## Kate Sharpley (Feb 14, 2014)

The39thStep said:


> Are these gaps or minor quibbles? And why has it taken so long for these minor quibbles to surface?


Gaps v quibbles depends on your point of view.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 14, 2014)

perhaps the subtitle should have been 'an untold history of anti-fascist action' as 'the history' suggests it's the final word. it would be good if other people put pen to paper to round out the account in 'beating the fascists' - until that happens btf seems to me the best source.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 14, 2014)

malatesta32 said:


> i know i deleted it.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Feb 16, 2014)

Kate Sharpley said:


> On the Northern Network (sources and interpretation): "In Beating the Fascists the accounts of the Northern Network are probably the weakest parts of the book. There are two reasons for this. First, unlike the accounts from London, there is a clear lack of first-hand accounts over the years. Secondly, the history of the Northern Network is skewed to fit the Red Action party line rather than describe how things really were."
> 
> On the DAM (sources): "The main anarchist organisation _Beating the Fascists_ mentions is the anarcho-syndicalist Direct Action Movement (DAM). The DAM was an important part of AFA, both in London and nationally, and _Beating the Fascists_ does quite a good job in recognising this. A serious attempt is made to give credit to the DAM – or at least particular DAM members. But it looks like the authors of _Beating the Fascists_ didn’t ask any ex-DAM members for their opinions. Instead, a couple of Albert Meltzer’s remarks in his autobiography, _I Couldn’t Paint Golden Angels,_ seem to be used as a stand-in for the DAM."
> 
> [But then written accounts from DAM members (in any field of activity) are not exactly thick on the ground. Call for anarchist accounts: http://www.katesharpleylibrary.net/p8d05b]



What was the 'party line' and why was AFA history skewed to fit it?


----------



## TopCat (Feb 16, 2014)

The39thStep said:


> Why has it taken so long for these minor quibbles to surface?


 This is what you meant?


----------



## TopCat (Feb 16, 2014)

....


----------



## miktheword (Feb 16, 2014)

Why now though are squibbles coming out?... Seems strange.
Years ago I read an account from k Sharpley site...about RA and Enkell
arms. I've refrained from putting the record straight due to the respect held.for the DAM.   it was me who.

was last in boozer havin gone on a scouting mission just about made it into boozer followed a few hy instinct to back room chatting to tearful barmaid en route..saw a few dam breaking cues and putting balls in socks...i returned to main bar and was ensconced next to Stevie whilst.  eroically shouting from beneath bar for old Irish fella to shut the other fuckin door ..
Not my finest hour but better than my cameo in BTF suggests but was happy to iust get a mention...no quibbles...to return to the start and to k sharpley..why now?
And especially as BTF says..we decided not to say anything aboutthe day as the DAM had been such good allies and street fighters...i read your archive account of the incident a few years back and admittedly you say it was a second hand account...but probably shouldve checked if putting that online


----------



## malatesta32 (Feb 16, 2014)

the main problem is that there arent enough 1st person account (for obvious reasons) and its hard to cross reference. there are a few accounts of the Enkell thing and you can kind of work out what happened overall. we have tried to get as many 1st hand accounts in our book some of which will inevitably be disputed. such are the hazards of oral history: subjectivity.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Feb 16, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> perhaps the subtitle should have been 'an untold history of anti-fascist action' as 'the history' suggests it's the final word.



"The untold _story_ of anti-fascist action" _is _the subtitle - in my copy anyway.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 16, 2014)

Joe Reilly said:


> "The untold _story_ of anti-fascist action" is the subtitle - on my copy anyway.


pedantry alive and well i see. what is the substantive difference between 'the untold story' and 'the untold history' you're getting at?


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 16, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> *pedantry alive and well i see. *what is the substantive difference between 'the untold story' and 'the untold history' you're getting at?



Mirror mirror on the wall


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 16, 2014)

The39thStep said:


> Mirror mirror on the wall


&?


----------



## miktheword (Feb 16, 2014)

malatesta32 said:


> the main problem is that there arent enough 1st person account (for obvious reasons) and its hard to cross reference. there are a few accounts of the Enkell thing and you can kind of work out what happened overall. we have tried to get as many 1st hand accounts in our book some of which will inevitably be disputed. such are the hazards of oral history: subjectivity.






the problem I had with the K Sharpley version of the Enkell is that it wasn't true. I could go through most of it in minor details, but this is the account that appeared in K Sharpley

https://libcom.org/library/bash-the-fash-anti-fascist-recollections-1984-1993/19-*anti-fascist-events-where-i-wasn-t-present*


_Red Action, DAM and a few others were holed up in a pub called the Enkell Arms. Some DAM members went scouting and found the fascists in another pub nearby. They nipped back to the Enkell Arms to ‘gather the troops’. Unfortunately there was a lot of dithering by certain people, and before you could say “Freedom For Tooting” the fascists had found the Enkell Arms. _

_In no time bricks were flying through the windows. Uncharacteristically most of Red Action ran into the back room leaving the anarchists to defend the place using pool cues, furniture and those heavy pub ashtrays. In fact our heroes probably smashed more of the pub windows with those ashtrays than the fascists did! There was one hilarious moment as a certain DAM comrade fulfilled a lifetime ambition and used the bar as a springboard just like in those Wild West movies. The cops were there pretty quick, just as the anarchists were getting into their stride, but nobody was arrested fortunately._

It seems odd to me that they would diss another organisation in their anti fascist recollections ..most telling is that it is done in a section entitled *anti fascist events where I wasn't present (*the bit I've bolded in their link...')

I was the only member of RA in the backroom, and for a very short time. There were a couple of DAM at the pool /snooker table as I described in a post above.

anyway, I shouldn't quibble.
_

_


----------



## Joe Reilly (Feb 18, 2014)

malatesta32 said:


> the main problem is that there arent enough 1st person account (for obvious reasons) and its hard to cross reference. there are a few accounts of the Enkell thing and you can kind of work out what happened overall.



If your method of reaching the truth is to take as many accounts as you can, give them all equal weight and then put them into a blender enabling "you to kind of work out what happened overall", then I suspect that more than one ex- AFA member who contributed in good faith your project will be more than a little pissed off. 

For example there are a number of alternative versions carried in BTF which are discussed in depth; one from C18, one from Steve Sargent, and the inversion of reality presented as the 'anarchist' account published by Kate Sharpley which is both the least detailed and the most egregious. 

Whereas the C18 accounts contradict each other the 'anarchist version' of events is nothing less than a bang out lie. Of course the source for the story didn't have the balls to publish it under his own name but laid it off on another member of DAM - who wasn't there - but who was naive enough to publish it in good faith. 

The reason for writing BTF was to bring clarity to an important and successful campaign that lasted the best part of 15 years and put to bed the rumours, myths and black propaganda that swirled around it from all quarters ever since. 

You on the other hand, if the "Enkell thing" is in anyway representative, seem to have set out to re-smudge the lens and pass it all off as 'subjectivity'. 

Given the current state of play across Europe this type of lazy cynicism is very last thing anti-fascism needs.


----------



## malatesta32 (Feb 18, 2014)

Joe Reilly said:


> Of course the source for the story didn't have the balls to publish it under his own name but laid it off on another member of DAM - who wasn't there - but who was naive enough to publish it in good faith.



i dont think anyone should be criticised for writing under a nom de guerre, sean!!! and i would refer you to your remarks prior to BTF being published (which as you will see i rate VERY highly, and more so than the initial review did) that you shouldnt criticise any book before reading it. i certainly do not  underestimate RA and what they did which has my utmost respect as the book more than makes clear! in fact, i cite 2 anarchist sources in the RA chapter who both make it plain that RA did the business more than anyone.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Feb 18, 2014)

malatesta32 said:


> i dont think anyone should be criticised for writing under a nom de guerre, sean!!! and i would refer you to your remarks prior to BTF being published (which as you will see i rate VERY highly, and more so than the initial review did) that you shouldnt criticise any book before reading it. i certainly do not  underestimate RA and what they did which has my utmost respect as the book more than makes clear! in fact, i cite 2 anarchist sources in the RA chapter who both make it plain that RA did the business more than anyone.



But the Dam member in question didn't write under a nom de guerre did he - he didn't put any name to it at all - merely passing it on to a colleague who was naive to take it in good faith, when writing under his own nom de guerre. Moreover my criticism is not with the book per se but with the erroneous method ( a pinch of truth here, a salting of lies and a sliver of sectaranism there and hey presto - history!) by which you happily advertise you arrive at conclusions.


----------



## malatesta32 (Feb 19, 2014)

i dont think you shd deduce a larger works methodology from a comment on urban75 (like critics of RA did prior to the release of BTF). and sorry, are we talking about the K Bullstreet one or the exLAFA one? 
wait till it comes out then criticse it.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Feb 20, 2014)

The39thStep said:


> Are these gaps or minor quibbles? And why has it taken so long for these minor quibbles to surface?



Not just minor quibbles but gnomic gaps.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Feb 20, 2014)

malatesta32 said:


> i dont think you shd deduce a larger works methodology from a comment on urban75/quote]



Normally, no. But given that it was you, the would be author, who took the opportunity to draw attention to what you consider your superior working method which you feel allows you to "_kind of work_ what happened at the Enkell _overall_" for example, when such a, let's be fair, weasely revision of events can only be arrived at, if the hard facts of the case as outlined in some detail in BTF, are diluted and corrupted by the lies and whimsy of fascists and bitter sectarians.  Now if the subjective result was to apply only to the Enkell it would be bad enough, but previous offerings on the subject of 'subjectivity' from yourself indicate otherwise.


----------



## malatesta32 (Feb 21, 2014)

Normally, no. But given that it was you, the would be author …

Mal: 3 books, countless journalism, ¼ million words on anti/fascism.

… who took the opportunity to draw attention to what you consider your superior working method which you feel allows you to "_kind of work_ what happened at the Enkell_overall_"

Mal: it is important cross reference as there are clearly different versions of the same incident and I do not accept that the BTF is the ONLY version. It may be the most believable one and least disputed but the Enkell thing has been discussed in at least 3 different books so these need to be accommodated.  I am not disputing anything in BtF but to say there is only 1 version is ‘subjectivity’ itself.

for example, when such a, let's be fair, weasely revision of events can only be arrived at, if the hard facts of the case as outlined in some detail in BTF, are diluted and corrupted by the lies and whimsy of fascists and bitter sectarians. Now if the subjective result was to apply only to the Enkell it would be bad enough, but previous offerings on the subject of 'subjectivity' from yourself indicate otherwise.


Mal: as far as fascism is concerned, to quote Martha Gellhorn  forget ‘all that objectivity shit.’


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 21, 2014)

malatesta32 said:


> Normally, no. But given that it was you, the would be author …
> 
> Mal: 3 books, countless journalism, ¼ million words on anti/fascism.
> 
> ...


 
what were the other two books Mal and the journalism you mention about?


----------



## miktheword (Feb 22, 2014)

_Mal: it is important cross reference as there are clearly different versions of the same incident and I do not accept that the BTF is the ONLY version. It may be the most believable one and least disputed but the Enkell thing has been discussed in at least 3 different books so these need to be accommodated.  I am not disputing anything in BtF but to say there is only 1 version is ‘subjectivity’ itself._



ok Mal, but there comes a point in historical enquiry that you have to discount other versions. keeping on the enkell thing, Joe, and (no-one I think  ) is saying it's the only version but instead are questioning ,forensically if need be,those other versions . that's the point ,isn't it, to get the history right , rather that a blurred story that leaves all anti fascists content ...the political point is made in BtF, meaning this is what can happen when stock isn't taken of our forces to theirs (on the day in question , we had 12 that went down to 10 as 2 moved their motors ...odds of 8 to one in their favour it turned out...the lesson obvious I would have thought ...we can't afford to lose ...planning, assessing odds was paramount ..(.unlike football rows ,have a beer with the oppo, we'll do you  next time  etc, don't happen)..

.to have got seriously turned over in north London for the first time in maybe a decade ,would have emboldened them, their hangers on, weakened us, etc

as said , I refrained for years from straightening the k bullstreet 'version 'out of respect for the DAM. Now if I can swear down what I saw, can place myself as the only RA member who followed DAM into the adjoining back room , I reckon for 20 seconds max (told crying  barmaid to call OB) returned to main  bar and was there early enough in proceedings to shout for other side door to be closed , repeated immediately by Glasgow S next to me as he muttered about retribution ...I was unnerved for about 20 seconds ...have no trouble admitting it..doesn't make me look good, as said previously .
I was subject  not just to wounding banter for the rest of the day, as told in BtF, but the rest of the year , and had to face severe questioning from fellow members absent from the day , as most of ours were at west Belfast interment festival . (and quite right I faced that questioning )

I never thought anything less of the DAM present, for reasons I outlined in an earlier post.
so much so that I still refrained from this correcting years back, when reading k bullstreet recollections .(repetition of this point for emphasis )

I couldn't  understand why they inverted reality ...it wasn't as if the enkell thing diminished their overall record (just the same as I don't think a brief loss of nerve diminished mine too much over a 15 year  period )
the reason  for the detail is that ,to return to joe's point about equal weighting in 'versions'  of enkell ..I will stop short of asking from them, for who else, apart from me in RA, was ever in the backroom, in these ,equally weighed , other versions. The question  becomes rhetorical  by me not asking it. Both  me and whoever gave that fiction to k bullstreet, know that I was the sole member.  

but the book , BtF, and perhaps more so this thread ,serves to clarify what happened .
throughout the thread ,and even before the book was published ,there were those who sought to muddy those waters for political reasons .

there are also those good anti fascists like yourself who may not have been around early enough for many of the events discussed and view any disagreements on this thread , as unnecessary sectarian personal feuds ...(see the popcorn and keep calm comments after k sharply posted )

people  can believe different things as to *why* enkell panned out as it did. (until reading btf and reading other accounts ,including anarchist ones , I thought for years that the fash followed me back after I aborted my scouting trip having been convinced i was clocked by their spotter outside their boozer on the Holloway rd...turns out that they may have found it for other reasons ...but minor details don't matter )

*but, as to what happened* , there should be no ambiguity .I know  what I saw in the pub,...and to this  day am still amazed at what appeared on the k sharply/bullstreet site. both groups had respect for each other, can't think of a less sectarian group in dealings with us, than London DAM...(maybe the Scottish dispute came into  it...?

that I can not only go into minute details but am also admitting it wasn't my finest hour ..surely carries more weight when a true anti fascist history is written ?

*it may seem like I'm focussing unnecessarily on a single row, but aside from straightening the history , it's also crucial for future anti fascists to learn how unplanned bravado can set us back.  this is central to BtF,  (and the point is made in the book about the enkell re lack of planning ...let others see what can happen when bravado takes over ) every  incident in the book is concluded with how it left them, us, politically and  subsequently, the amount of state interest that ensued .*
But , the historical accuracy is paramount ..and with respect , I don't think you've addressed Joe's point about weighting ,first hand accounts etc.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Feb 25, 2014)

malatesta32 said:


> I am not disputing anything in BtF but to say there is only 1 version is ‘subjectivity’ itself.



The account in BTF is a blow by blow account signed off by eye-witnesses on the ground.

It explains what happened in precise detail and why.

Names are named.

It is not offered up as an 'opinion' as you seem to need to pretend.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Mar 1, 2014)

miktheword said:


> *but, as to what happened* , there should be no ambiguity .I know  what I saw in the pub,...and to this  day am still amazed at what appeared on the k sharply/bullstreet site. both groups had respect for each other, can't think of a less sectarian group in dealings with us, than London DAM...(maybe the Scottish dispute came into  it...?



The Scottish dispute had nothing to do with it except to say that bang-out lies emanating from a lone DAM member lay behind that too. So in that sense it does explain how easily tribal loyalties can be inflamed even within an organisation founded on anti-sectarian lines.

Oddly enough in the attachment from the recent Kate Sharpley post (which I have just read) the Glasgow incident is once again raised as if it represented unfinished business somehow, on the lines that the anarchists were hard done by.

Which is very odd because my memory of it was that the DAM negotiators in London were grateful to have been let down so gently given that the info they were privy too was liberally laced with falsehoods. Basically they had been offered a sectarian pup and bought without checking the pedigree. And as a result found themselves constantly on the wrong-foot during discussions on the matter.

Gl*n who was himself Scottish but operating out of South London admitted to me after the final meeting that he found whole affair "pretty embarrassing" and was glad it had been put to bed with no hard feelings on the RA side.

So why would ex-DAM wish to return to it now?

Intriguingly at least part of the reason behind the fall-out in Glasgow was the apparent belief by the main mover and shaker there that if he set up a rival AFA branch in the city, then the DAM who he was led to believe were the principal string-pullers in London could be relied upon to support it.

Wrong on both counts as it happens.

But if the KS post is anything to by there may well be some significant re-writing of militant anti-fascist history yet.

For example KS talks of the 'Northern Network being the oldest and biggest region' thereby clearly implying that as a consequence it was also the most influential in terms of AFA nationally and of course in terms of effecting the fortunes NF/B&H/C18/BNP, which would be more than a little misleading.

It also states that BTF is limited to giving first hand accounts of those events that the RA members quoted 'were directly involved in'. Suggesting that a) there were a host of significant events not covered in BTF as a consequence and b) that the individuals in question had been selected on the basis they were 'key RA members' first and foremost, when in reality those quoted had actually been central to founding AFA nationally in 1985 and were critical to the re-launch in 1989 and drivers in its development nationally region by region thereafter.

Or to put it another way, they were first in and last out; the same individuals who formed AFA literally turned out the lights in 2001, was the real reason the featured so heavily. That plus their availability and willingness to be quoted.

KS signs off with a wry remark about 'minding the gaps'.

Well if people think there are significant gaps then by all means fill them.

But if the KS offering and Malatesta's take on the 'Enkel thing' (and subsequent silence which may be as telling) are anything to go by, then I think anti-fascists should be rather wary about the type of material they intend to fill the gaps with.


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## malatesta32 (Mar 2, 2014)

i reiterate that BTF is an excellent book but it is wrong to think it is beyond criticism from other members of a large, nationwide organisation. i said in the original review 'write your own.'  there are very few anarchist voices outside of london DAM. there will always be disagreements.


----------



## malatesta32 (Mar 3, 2014)

editor said:


> Really interesting piece with loads of archive material on the BBC site:
> 
> Nicky Crane: The secret double life of a gay neo-Nazi
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-25142557



a clip from PTV with crane in at 4.10. shit music, shit band.

Ov power my arse.


----------



## Citizen66 (Mar 3, 2014)

When is No Retreat: The Musical! Due to hit the stages?


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 3, 2014)

malatesta32 said:


> a clip from PTV with crane in at 4.10. shit music, shit band.
> 
> Ov power my arse.



Have you any interests?


----------



## malatesta32 (Mar 3, 2014)

yes, i spend most of my day thinking what you are doing.! i just happened upon it by accident and these threads are a useful repository for things. especially this one.


----------



## cantsin (Mar 3, 2014)

malatesta32 said:


> a clip from PTV with crane in at 4.10. *shit music, shit band.*
> 
> Ov power my arse.




are feckin ' sure ???


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 3, 2014)

malatesta32 said:


> yes, i spend most of my day thinking what you are doing.! i just happened upon it by accident and these threads are a useful repository for things. especially this one.


So posting stuff that's already over the internet and has been know for nearly three decades. Why?


----------



## malatesta32 (Mar 3, 2014)

cantsin said:


> are feckin ' sure ???



of what? that PTV are shit and crane is in the video. and buttcheeks apron, it is pertinent to previous posting.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 3, 2014)

malatesta32 said:


> of what? that PTV are shit and crane is in the video. and buttcheeks apron, it is pertinent to previous posting.


The one made 6 months ago. This is getting pathetic. Just post shite from here and maybe copy it and you'll never have to think on your feet again.


----------



## bignose1 (Mar 5, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> When is No Retreat: The Musical! Due to hit the stages?


Post production....going to be called Fashdance


----------



## DaveCinzano (Mar 5, 2014)

bignose1 said:


> Post production....going to be called Fashdance


I take it _Brownshirty Dancing_ didn't make the cut?


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Mar 5, 2014)

Seven Bottles for Seven Boneheads


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Mar 5, 2014)

Waterlooside Story


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 5, 2014)

Officers Coup and a Gentleman


----------



## cesare (Mar 5, 2014)

The Producers


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 5, 2014)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> Seven Bottles for Seven Boneheads




Yaxley Alone


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 5, 2014)

miracle on 88th strasse


----------



## DaveCinzano (Mar 5, 2014)

_Searchlight Express_


----------



## Citizen66 (Mar 5, 2014)

Gritty City Bang Bang


----------



## DaveCinzano (Mar 5, 2014)

_Oi!klahoma_


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Mar 5, 2014)

Phantom of the AFA


----------



## Citizen66 (Mar 5, 2014)

Twats.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Mar 5, 2014)

_The Phantom Of L'Istituto per le Opere di Religione_


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Mar 5, 2014)

My Fash Lady


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Mar 5, 2014)

Swingin' in the Rain


----------



## DaveCinzano (Mar 5, 2014)

There's even one about CxF: _The Last Walts_


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Mar 5, 2014)

Thouroghly Modern Fiore


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Mar 5, 2014)

Absolute Lecombers


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 5, 2014)

the Grand Wizard of Oz


----------



## DaveCinzano (Mar 5, 2014)

I think the one about the inter-factional fighting over CD money and the murder of Chris Castle is a bit tasteless though:

_Booty And The Beast_


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Mar 5, 2014)

Hello Nicky


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Mar 5, 2014)

Goodbye Mr Tyndall


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 5, 2014)

the church king and I


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 5, 2014)

the fash and the furious


----------



## DaveCinzano (Mar 5, 2014)

_The Redwatch Shoes_


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 5, 2014)

from prussia with hate


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 5, 2014)

sins of the fatherland


----------



## DaveCinzano (Mar 5, 2014)

_My Fair Lady Birdwood_


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 5, 2014)

White Pride and Prejudice (I know its a book but I've sat through enough fucking endless beeb adapts)


----------



## DaveCinzano (Mar 5, 2014)

Didn't Benny & Björn, formerly of ABBA, do a couple?

_AFAcadabra
Hess_


----------



## TopCat (Mar 5, 2014)

Christ.


----------



## Balbi (Mar 5, 2014)

The Book of Moron


----------



## barney_pig (Mar 5, 2014)

_"Swinging from a lampost at the corner of the street"

.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_


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## WAYWARD CHERRY (Mar 15, 2014)

I've been reading some fash forums of late and there is supposedly a book coming out in July on the history of rock against communism.  Using my troll account, I contacted the poster who seemed to know about it and it will have bits about some of the confrontations RA and AFA had with the fash, like Jubilee Gardens and Waterloo.  Sounds interesting.


----------



## LiamO (Mar 15, 2014)

Hello Eddie


----------



## WAYWARD CHERRY (Mar 15, 2014)

Sorry?


----------



## LiamO (Mar 15, 2014)

are you not the author of the RAC tome then?


----------



## WAYWARD CHERRY (Mar 15, 2014)

Of course not.


----------



## LiamO (Mar 15, 2014)

OK

can you pm me a link to the sites where this is being discussed?


----------



## WAYWARD CHERRY (Mar 15, 2014)

Iv'e not actually been able to find out who the author is.


----------



## LiamO (Mar 15, 2014)

One of them is named on the links you sent me.


----------



## WAYWARD CHERRY (Mar 15, 2014)

Is he though?  That thread looks like some kind of spoof.  My take on that is kind of confirmed on the Storm Front thread.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 15, 2014)

WAYWARD CHERRY said:


> I've been reading some fash forums of late and there is supposedly a book coming out in July on the history of rock against communism.  Using my troll account, I contacted the poster who seemed to know about it and it will have bits about some of the confrontations RA and AFA had with the fash, like Jubilee Gardens and Waterloo.  Sounds interesting.


And short .


----------



## Red Storm (Mar 15, 2014)

A few messages were sent to the anti-fascist archive from Eddie. Sounds like he's been using it.


----------



## juice_terry (Mar 16, 2014)

is the archive site down pal ? I can't access it


----------



## WAYWARD CHERRY (Mar 16, 2014)

Yes, I can't get on there either.   The RA and AFA days were before my time.  Was anybody on here actually at Jubilee Gardens that day?


----------



## LiamO (Mar 16, 2014)

click search on top right of this page... type 'jubilee gardens'... select 'search this thread only'... job done


----------



## WAYWARD CHERRY (Mar 16, 2014)

OK thanks, I'm still trying to work out how to post properly on here, like using quotes etc.


----------



## WAYWARD CHERRY (Mar 16, 2014)

I'm very tempted to put my account of Jubilee Gardens, which will appear in the book, up on here, but that would ruin it's release somewhat.  Here's a little taste of one of the pics of my pal on stage just about to clump someone....How is your book coming along Liam?


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## LiamO (Mar 16, 2014)

Wonderfully Eddie, thanks.

I have had to change track a bit given the inability of most of your mob to string a coherent sentence together - so I've had to long-finger the 'Two Sides of Hell' idea and just carry on with some personal reminiscences.

Why don't you post up your account of Jubilee gardens? Think of it less as ruining your release... more as a little striptease to entice us lefties into your wacky world of wacism.

And anyway your book won't be out two minutes before it's been scanned and uploaded for free so they'll all be reading it anyway.

But do it now, there's a dear, cos I imagine someone will ban you very soon (which I fear is inevitable but a little short-sighted)


----------



## LiamO (Mar 16, 2014)

dp


----------



## Citizen66 (Mar 16, 2014)

LiamO said:


> But do it now, there's a dear, cos I imagine someone will ban you very soon (which I fear is inevitable but a little short-sighted)



I doubt he'll get banned unless he becomes excitable and expresses some of his more 'interesting' views.


----------



## LiamO (Mar 16, 2014)

Good. That will allow him time to post up about Jubilee gardens and have his account subjected to some rigorous interrogation. I don't think he will have the bottle* for that though tbh.

When I discussed any incident with Eddie and his mates (him by email and them on a skinhead fb page) they wriggled and diverted to beat the band.

* _I don't mean that I think he is a physical coward, or even an intellectual one. I mean they (collectively and individually) seem to have an ability to make their post-event rationalisations into 'the truth' - and posting something up where it can be subject to some rigorous poking and questioning is much more challenging than writing some old unchallenged pish for an audience of dimwits._


----------



## WAYWARD CHERRY (Mar 16, 2014)

I have never 'wriggled and diverted' in my emails to you.  As said, I can only comment on what I was actually at.  Add to this me not wanting to give away anything that is going to be in the book.  My accounts will be honest and the difference between us is, I do not have selective memory, like the 'No retreat' book that fails to mention Watford Gap service station.  Also, if anyone scans up anything I have written and reproduces or uploads it I will take legal action.


----------



## WAYWARD CHERRY (Mar 16, 2014)

Lol, this is all you're getting:

It was my idea to do this gig.  About a month before the Redskins were due to play at Jubilee Gardens, along with John and Paul Burnley, I was on my way to a South East London and Kent BM meeting. These were held regularly on the last Friday of every month in the room above Welling library.  We had gotten off the tube at London Bridge and I see a poster advertising the gig.  I was elated, this was our chance to introduce these middle class commie fake 'skinheads' to a bit of skinhead White Power!  I raised the matter at the meeting with the organiser, Mick MacAndrews, now sadly dead.  It was decided we would organise an 'expeditionary force' for the gig.


----------



## WAYWARD CHERRY (Mar 16, 2014)

I was in quite a few of the confrontations with RA/AFA.  Lecomber has also let me see his extensive files created with the help of Lawrence Ruston.


----------



## WAYWARD CHERRY (Mar 16, 2014)

Anyone on here at Kings Cross after the AFA inaugural meeting at Conway Hall?  I was one of the two chased down York road and luckily escaped in a black cab.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Mar 16, 2014)

WAYWARD CHERRY said:


> Lecomber has also let me see his extensive files created with the help of Lawrence Ruston.



Is that a euphemism?


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 16, 2014)

WAYWARD CHERRY said:


> Lol, this is all you're getting:
> 
> It was my idea to do this gig.  About a month before the Redskins were due to play at Jubilee Gardens, along with John and Paul Burnley, I was on my way to a South East London and Kent BM meeting. These were held regularly on the last Friday of every month in the room above Welling library.  We had gotten off the tube at London Bridge and I see a poster advertising the gig.  I was elated, this was our chance to introduce these middle class commie fake 'skinheads' to a bit of skinhead White Power!  I raised the matter at the meeting with the organiser, Mick MacAndrews, now sadly dead.  It was decided we would organise an 'expeditionary force' for the gig.


White Power eh?


----------



## WAYWARD CHERRY (Mar 16, 2014)

A little bit more:

I had brought with me a large hand sewed Swastika flag and my girlfriend was carrying it in a Sainsbury's carrier bag along with a few bottles of lager. I intended to unfurl it on the stage.  It's funny really, because it seems like only last week and my memories of the day are vivid.  Anyway, We had a few drinks, then sauntered without a care in the world across the footbridge that traverses the Thames from the Embankment station to the Southbank.  We assembled around the stage the Redskins were due to appear on and waited for the fun to commence.  Rather stupidly, I was wearing a 'Skrewdriver Great Britain' t-shirt and I'd clocked a couple of lefties eyeing me up.  A little while after the event, I remember reading the report in the 'Red Action' broadsheet and they actually mentioned seeing 'a load of kids with skinheads, one in a Skrewdriver t-shirt' and went on to say it was a mistake they wouldn't make again in not attacking them due to their age!


----------



## Citizen66 (Mar 16, 2014)

LiamO said:


> Wonderfully Eddie, thanks.



Naming people can earn you a slap on the wrist, however.


----------



## WAYWARD CHERRY (Mar 16, 2014)

Even if they are Nazis?


----------



## Citizen66 (Mar 16, 2014)

WAYWARD CHERRY said:


> Even if they are Nazis?



Even wankers are protected by the forum rules, yeah. It's that annoying equality thing that you doubtlessly piss and moan about.


----------



## WAYWARD CHERRY (Mar 16, 2014)

There is no equality in nature.


----------



## Citizen66 (Mar 16, 2014)

WAYWARD CHERRY said:


> There is no equality in nature.



Which one is the penguin ruler then?


----------



## WAYWARD CHERRY (Mar 16, 2014)

...............Craney's group had still not shown and by now the Redskins were half way through their set.  At one point their singer Chris Dean had likened the exuberance of the crowd dancing in front of the stage area to the storming of the Winter Palace (a reference to the 'Russian' revolution).  That would all change pretty soon and the lefty crowd would then be more akin to the Soviet retreat at Smolensk!


----------



## Citizen66 (Mar 16, 2014)

Hierarchy is a social construct.


----------



## WAYWARD CHERRY (Mar 16, 2014)

Communism is the revolt of quantity over quality.


----------



## Citizen66 (Mar 16, 2014)

WAYWARD CHERRY said:


> Communism is the revolt of quantity over quality.



We probably shouldn't derail this thread.


----------



## WAYWARD CHERRY (Mar 16, 2014)

You started it.


----------



## Citizen66 (Mar 16, 2014)

Feel free to search for an appropriate thread or start a new one although I suspect it'll severely reduce your lifespan here if you veer too far from reminiscing about the good ol' days.


----------



## WAYWARD CHERRY (Mar 16, 2014)

Exactly, that's why I will not be drawn into political arguments with you lot as of now.


----------



## Citizen66 (Mar 16, 2014)

Fair enough.


----------



## WAYWARD CHERRY (Mar 16, 2014)

Anyone care to reminisce about the first AFA meeting or Watford gap, when the coach got wrecked?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Mar 16, 2014)

WAYWARD CHERRY said:


> You started it.


NO, YOU INVADED POLAND


----------



## DrRingDing (Mar 16, 2014)

WAYWARD CHERRY said:


> Communism is the revolt of quantity over quality.



You're 'the quality'?


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 16, 2014)

WAYWARD CHERRY care to explain what you mean by 'White Power'?


----------



## Citizen66 (Mar 16, 2014)

DrRingDing said:


> You're 'the quality'?



He was on the verge of making the argument for hierarchy by comparing himself to monkeys.


----------



## WAYWARD CHERRY (Mar 16, 2014)

Let's not derail the thread hey 'comrades'.


----------



## WAYWARD CHERRY (Mar 16, 2014)

No remorse wrote a song about Jubilee Gardens.  It includes part of the bootleg of the Redskins singing 'Lean on me' that they were performing when they were attacked.  Just for it's historical value, here it is:

<not thanks - ed>


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 16, 2014)

WAYWARD CHERRY said:


> Let's not derail the thread hey 'comrades'.


How about you answer the questions?


----------



## LiamO (Mar 16, 2014)

Now you are being naughty. Anyone would think you were trying to provoke a ban.


----------



## WAYWARD CHERRY (Mar 16, 2014)

If I answer the questions I will be banned.


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 16, 2014)

thats pretty much on the cards anyway


----------



## WAYWARD CHERRY (Mar 16, 2014)

Why ban me, I'm a Socialist.  You must've heard of Strasser?


----------



## LiamO (Mar 16, 2014)

WAYWARD CHERRY said:


> Anyone care to reminisce about the first AFA meeting or Watford gap, when the coach got wrecked?



There is only one poster on here who was at Watford Gap. I have spoken to him and his version of events is very much at odds with yours. He is unlikely to engage with you.

There are a number of posters who were at Jubilee Gardens though. Let's talk openly about that.

You (and others on that skinhead fb page) reckoned Reds claiming Jubilee Gardens as a victory proved we were lying bastards etc.

I pointed out that Red Action claimed no such thing, that we openly acknowledged
a) we had been caught with our pants down;
b) it was a major coup for the NF/BM and an embarrassment for the Left;
c) it was something of a watershed moment



However in the greater scheme of things...
a) it vindicated Red Action's position and made the almost universal 'the NF are a spent force - ignore them and they'll go away' attitude of the conservative Left look like the wishful thinking it was;

b) We met and recruited a number of what became key, long-term players in the aftermath of the (successful, for you) Redskins attack and the (catastrophic for a lot of you) attack on the Hank Wangford band;

c) It made Red Action the only credible focal point for non-aligned anti-Fascists. RA realised that we needed to broaden things out and create an umbrella group/broad front (which became AFA) to accommodate these people - who had responded so bravely once a lead was given on the day.


----------



## LiamO (Mar 16, 2014)

WAYWARD CHERRY said:


> Lecomber has also let me see his extensive files created with the help of Lawrence Ruston.



Has he showed you his extensive scars created with the help of AFA?... usually after his mates had legged it?


----------



## DrRingDing (Mar 16, 2014)

WAYWARD CHERRY said:


> I have never 'wriggled and diverted' in my emails to you.  As said, I can only comment on what I was actually at.  Add to this me not wanting to give away anything that is going to be in the book.  My accounts will be honest and the difference between us is, I do not have selective memory, like the 'No retreat' book that fails to mention Watford Gap service station.  Also, if anyone scans up anything I have written and reproduces or uploads it I will take legal action.



Be sure to mention your relationship with your father.


----------



## LiamO (Mar 16, 2014)

WAYWARD CHERRY said:


> I have never 'wriggled and diverted' in my emails to you.  As said, *I can only comment on what I was actually at*.  Add to this me not wanting to give away anything that is going to be in the book.  My accounts will be honest and the difference between us is, I do not have selective memory, l*ike the 'No retreat' book that fails to mention Watford Gap service station*.  Also, if anyone scans up anything I have written and reproduces or uploads it I will take legal action.



Neither of the two authors of that book were there. Why would they mention it?

BtF didn't mention it either IIRC - because it was a very minor event amongst many. Btw, do you have any photos of the yellow mini-bus attacked and wrecked by your snue-gliffing hordes at Stonebridge Island on the A45 in January 1981? Your publications used to carry pics of it occasionally.

I was on that. It was an eye-opener. Three people on it later joined Red Action.


----------



## LiamO (Mar 16, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> Naming people can earn you a slap on the wrist, however.



So a prominent career fascist posts on this thread, posing as a concerned leftie looking for info and _you_ respond by criticising me for spotting and naming him in seconds? What a strange post. 

I did not notice you offer bignose1 the same 'protection' when he too joined us pretending he was not who he was.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 16, 2014)

LiamO said:


> Now you are being naughty. Anyone would think you were trying to provoke a ban.


Fuck off am I. He's the one talking about white power and then being all coy when he's pulled up on it.

You only want him unbanned as fodder for your book.


----------



## Citizen66 (Mar 16, 2014)

LiamO said:


> So a prominent career fascist posts on this thread, posing as a concerned leftie looking for info and _you_ respond by criticising me for spotting and naming him in seconds? What a strange post.
> 
> I did not notice you offer bignose1 the same 'protection' when he too joined us pretending he was not who he was.



I'm only stating the forum rules. I have no power here to offer anyone protection; I'm not a mod and have never desired being such.


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 16, 2014)

WAYWARD CHERRY said:


> Why ban me, I'm a Socialist.  You must've heard of Strasser?




lol. Both of them. Anyway, its not me who will lay the axe, one of the site mods will eventually notice and call time. This is unofficial policy really, even the odd EDL bod popping up on the EDL thread has a short life span so to speak


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 16, 2014)

Liam you can't pick and choose which forum rules you want enforced. Naming real-life names has always been a massive no-no on here.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Mar 16, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> I'm only stating the forum rules. I have no power here to offer anyone protection; I'm not a mod and have never desired being such.


Likely story


----------



## Sweet FA (Mar 16, 2014)

The only point in him being here would be to have the political discussion. Otherwise why bother?


----------



## Citizen66 (Mar 16, 2014)

Sweet FA said:


> The only point in him being here would be to have the political discussion. Otherwise why bother?



Documenting (or re-inventing) history.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 16, 2014)

Sweet FA said:


> The only point in him being here would be to have the political discussion. Otherwise why bother?


Although I have a sneaking feeling there won't be much discussion...


----------



## WAYWARD CHERRY (Mar 16, 2014)

Liam, I have never claimed 'the reds' took Jubilee Gardens as a victory.  Yes a few of Craneys lot got a kicking, but that is their fault for being late.  I have never associated with glue sniffers and they were despised by proper 'right-wing' skinheads.  I'm here to discuss past confrontations in a civilised manner, nothing more or less.  Surely there will be interest in this book, from right across the political spectrum, as there will for yours too I am sure.


----------



## Citizen66 (Mar 16, 2014)

I don't think he can be banned simply for being fash. If that's the case then why are the Tory fuckers on here tolerated? However the probability of him saying something that would get him banned increases as time elapses.


----------



## WAYWARD CHERRY (Mar 16, 2014)

What are the rules?  What can I not say?


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 16, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> I don't think he can be banned simply for being fash. If that's the case then why are the Tory fuckers on here tolerated? However the probability of him saying something that would get him banned increases as time elapses.




Fidgemagnet just does them under the 'don't be a cunt' act.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 16, 2014)

WAYWARD CHERRY said:


> What are the rules?  What can I not say?


Look at the FAQ, bottom right hand side of the screen. But I suspect you've already broken it. Didn't you tick a box to say you'd read them when you sign up?


----------



## WAYWARD CHERRY (Mar 16, 2014)

DrRingDing said:


> Be sure to mention your relationship with your father.



From the book: 

My Dad was what I would describe a racialist and told me if I ever came home with a non-white girl I would be disowned.  He'd fought in the war and lied about his age to do so, was at the D-day landings and had many mates killed in that pointless brothers' war.  I'd say he shared many NS beliefs without even realising it, though he hated me being a 'Nazi'.  Years later before he died, I was glad to hear him say that if all the poor boys that had fought and died in the war against NS Germany could've looked into a crystal ball and seen the future of Britain, they would've welcomed Hitler with open arms.  He was a Bren-gunner in the war and had got returned to Britain after being blown up, luckily his injuries hadn't been life threatening and after he recovered he was sent up north to guard German POWs.  He said the Germans he met were good people, just like us British, only speaking a different language.


----------



## Citizen66 (Mar 16, 2014)

WAYWARD CHERRY said:


> I'm here to discuss past confrontations *in a civilised manner[b/], nothing more or less. *


*
You even sound like LiamO. *


----------



## DrRingDing (Mar 16, 2014)

WAYWARD CHERRY said:


> Liam, I have never claimed 'the reds' took Jubilee Gardens as a victory.  Yes a few of Craneys lot got a kicking, but that is their fault for being late.  I have never associated with glue sniffers and they were despised by proper 'right-wing' skinheads.  I'm here to discuss past confrontations in a civilised manner, nothing more or less.  Surely there will be interest in this book, from right across the political spectrum, as there will for yours too I am sure.



I'm sure as much interest as in your poetry.


----------



## Citizen66 (Mar 16, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> Fidgemagnet just does them under the 'don't be a cunt' act.



Well there is that.


----------



## WAYWARD CHERRY (Mar 16, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> Look at the FAQ, bottom right hand side of the screen. But I suspect you've already broken it. Didn't you tick a box to say you'd read them when you sign up?



I ticked without reading it.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 16, 2014)

WAYWARD CHERRY said:


> I ticked without reading it.


You surprise me


----------



## DaveCinzano (Mar 16, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> Fidgemagnet



Rule 15.3: 



> Do not piss about with user names


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 16, 2014)

WAYWARD CHERRY said:


> From the book:
> 
> My Dad was what I would describe a racialist and told me if I ever came home with a non-white girl I would be disowned.  He'd fought in the war and lied about his age to do so, was at the D-day landings and had many mates killed in that pointless brothers' war.  I'd say he shared many NS beliefs without even realising it, though he hated me being a 'Nazi'.  Years later before he died, I was glad to hear him say that if all the poor boys that had fought and died in the war against NS Germany could've looked into a crystal ball and seen the future of Britain, they would've welcomed Hitler with open arms.  He was a Bren-gunner in the war and had got returned to Britain after being blown up, luckily his injuries hadn't been life threatening and after he recovered he was sent up north to guard German POWs.  He said the Germans he met were good people, just like us British, only speaking a different language.


a) I think you mean racist, not racialist.
b) I'm not surprised your dad hated you being a Nazi. He'd been injured fighting a war against that belief system.


----------



## LiamO (Mar 16, 2014)

WAYWARD CHERRY said:


> Liam, I have never claimed 'the reds' took Jubilee Gardens as a victory.



yes. 

You did.

I have just PM'd you the email (dated 18/09/13) where you made _exactly_ that claim. Would you still dispute you said it?

I hope you are left to stick around a while. It might make for an interesting discussion. But I suspect you will get flustered and then post something offensive so one of the pencil monitors can ask Sir to ban you.


----------



## WAYWARD CHERRY (Mar 16, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> a) I think you mean racist, not racialist.
> b) I'm not surprised your dad hated you being a Nazi. He'd been injured fighting a war against that belief system.



No, I mean racialist, I refuse to use a word invented by Leon Trotsky with the intention of instilling guilt in indigenous peoples.  No, he'd been conned into fighting to stop 'foreign invasion'.


----------



## WAYWARD CHERRY (Mar 16, 2014)

LiamO said:


> yes.
> 
> You did.
> 
> ...



Well some of your lot did, just because a few of ours took a kicking.  I don't recall you lot ever trying to attack an actual Skrewdriver or B & H gig - just RV points or stragglers.


----------



## moonstomp (Mar 16, 2014)

Are you the one the that got his leg broke a few years ago ? knocked around with Whatmough ? I thought you just said real right wing skinheads didn't hang around with glue sniffers


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 16, 2014)

WAYWARD CHERRY said:


> From the book:
> 
> My Dad was what I would describe a racialist and told me if I ever came home with a non-white girl I would be disowned.  He'd fought in the war and lied about his age to do so, was at the D-day landings and had many mates killed in that pointless brothers' war.  I'd say he shared many NS beliefs without even realising it, though he hated me being a 'Nazi'.  Years later before he died, I was glad to hear him say that if all the poor boys that had fought and died in the war against NS Germany could've looked into a crystal ball and seen the future of Britain, they would've welcomed Hitler with open arms.  He was a Bren-gunner in the war and had got returned to Britain after being blown up, luckily his injuries hadn't been life threatening and after he recovered he was sent up north to guard German POWs.  He said the Germans he met were good people, just like us British, only speaking a different language.



Interesting enough my father lied about his age to fight in the war as well.He was a pilot and was decorated, crashed abroad and made his way back. He always said Germans were just like us but spoke a different language as well. He had strong views on immigration in the 60s and 70s . He would have welcomed Hitler with open arms but they would have been  round his throat and possibly the authors fathers throat as well. He hated Mosley and their fifth column more than he did what he called ' the jungle  bunnies 'and 'the Pakis'.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 16, 2014)

WAYWARD CHERRY said:


> No, I mean racialist, I refuse to use a word invented by Leon Trotsky with the intention of instilling guilt in indigenous peoples.  No, he'd been conned into fighting to stop 'foreign invasion'.


Racialist is a term used by white supremacists in the main.


----------



## WAYWARD CHERRY (Mar 16, 2014)

moonstomp said:


> Are you the one the that got his leg broke a few years ago ? knocked around with Whatmough ? I thought you just said real right wing skinheads didn't hang around with glue sniffers



It was a fractured ankle and I've never seen any proof to suggest Watmough was a glue sniffer.  Even if he was, the 80s was a long time ago and I very much doubt he does these days.


----------



## WAYWARD CHERRY (Mar 16, 2014)

The39thStep said:


> Interesting enough my father lied about his age to fight in the war as well.He was a pilot and was decorated, crashed abroad and made his way back. He always said Germans were just like us but spoke a different language as well. He had strong views on immigration in the 60s and 70s . He would have welcomed Hitler with open arms but they would have been  round his throat and possibly the authors fathers throat as well. He hated Mosley and their fifth column more than he did what he called ' the jungle  bunnies 'and 'the Pakis'.



You have no real concept of national socialism do you?  Us 'English' are Anglo-Saxons and as such are Germanic.  I didn't see the Germans mistreating any of their other allies, like the Italians or Vichy French and they would not have mistreated us either if 'we had welcomed them with open arms.'


----------



## Blagsta (Mar 16, 2014)

WAYWARD CHERRY said:


> You have no real concept of national socialism do you? * Us 'English' are Anglo-Saxons* and as such are Germanic.  I didn't see the Germans mistreating any of their other allies, like the Italians or Vichy French and they would not have mistreated us either if 'we had welcomed them with open arms.'



Speak for yourself.


----------



## WAYWARD CHERRY (Mar 16, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> Racialist is a term used by white supremacists in the main.



I'm actually a white separatist.


----------



## WAYWARD CHERRY (Mar 16, 2014)

The39thStep said:


> Interesting enough my father lied about his age to fight in the war as well.He was a pilot and was decorated, crashed abroad and made his way back. He always said Germans were just like us but spoke a different language as well. He had strong views on immigration in the 60s and 70s . He would have welcomed Hitler with open arms but they would have been  round his throat and possibly the authors fathers throat as well. He hated Mosley and their fifth column more than he did what he called ' the jungle  bunnies 'and 'the Pakis'.



Many members of the BUF fought against Hitler.  There really was no 'fifth column'.


----------



## Citizen66 (Mar 16, 2014)

WAYWARD CHERRY said:


> You have no real concept of national socialism do you?  Us 'English' are Anglo-Saxons and as such are Germanic.  I didn't see the Germans mistreating any of their other allies, like the Italians or Vichy French and they would not have mistreated us either if 'we had welcomed them with open arms.'



How would they have treated the English working class, homosexuals and disabled folk?


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 16, 2014)

WAYWARD CHERRY said:


> I'm actually a white separatist.


That's hardly any better.


----------



## Citizen66 (Mar 16, 2014)

WAYWARD CHERRY said:


> I'm actually a white separatist.



He's right on this point though. There is a difference between racism and racialism. Although the latter tends to breed the former.


----------



## WAYWARD CHERRY (Mar 16, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> How would they have treated the English working class, homosexuals and disabled folk?



How did Stalin treat the Ukranians?


----------



## Citizen66 (Mar 16, 2014)

WAYWARD CHERRY said:


> How did Stalin treat the Ukranians?



lolz

I'm an anarchist. Try again.


----------



## WAYWARD CHERRY (Mar 16, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> lolz
> 
> I'm an anarchist. Try again.



Then perhaps you already know many of the early anarchists were anti-Jewish?


----------



## Citizen66 (Mar 16, 2014)

WAYWARD CHERRY said:


> I'm actually a white separatist.



Third position?


----------



## WAYWARD CHERRY (Mar 16, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> Third position?



No, that is religious BS.


----------



## Citizen66 (Mar 16, 2014)

WAYWARD CHERRY said:


> Then perhaps you already know many of the early anarchists were anti-Jewish?



I don't. But then I don't identify myself with people I've never met who died before I was born.


----------



## WAYWARD CHERRY (Mar 16, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> I don't. But then I don't identify myself with people I've never met who died before I was born.



So what brand of leftism do you subscribe to?


----------



## Citizen66 (Mar 16, 2014)

WAYWARD CHERRY said:


> So what brand of leftism do you subscribe to?



Libertarian Communism.


----------



## WAYWARD CHERRY (Mar 16, 2014)

Well it's all the same to me and history has proved it does not work.


----------



## Citizen66 (Mar 16, 2014)

WAYWARD CHERRY said:


> Well it's all the same to me and history has proved it does not work.



Example?


----------



## WAYWARD CHERRY (Mar 16, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> Example?



Just about every red state that has ever existed.   Marxism is a fraud, as was Marx himself.


----------



## Citizen66 (Mar 16, 2014)

WAYWARD CHERRY said:


> Just about every red state that has ever existed.   Marxism is a fraud, as was Marx himself.



But I'm an anarchist, not a Marxist. It can be argued that communism has never been realised. Unless you can point out a historical example where the means of production were held in common?


----------



## editor (Mar 16, 2014)

WAYWARD CHERRY said:


> If I answer the questions I will be banned.


Your shitty video has been removed anyway.


----------



## krink (Mar 16, 2014)

fuck this thread while this vermin is on it.


----------



## LiamO (Mar 16, 2014)

moonstomp said:


> Are you the one the that got his leg broke a few years ago ?



got some details on this moonstomp?


----------



## goldenecitrone (Mar 16, 2014)

WAYWARD CHERRY said:


> You have no real concept of national socialism do you?



Neither do you.



WAYWARD CHERRY said:


> Us 'English' are Anglo-Saxons and as such are Germanic.



A thousand years out on that one. Talk about living in the past.



WAYWARD CHERRY said:


> I didn't see the Germans mistreating any of their other allies, like the Italians or Vichy French.



Apart from all the tens of thousands of people they murdered.


----------



## WAYWARD CHERRY (Mar 16, 2014)

goldenecitrone said:


> Neither do you.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




At least you have the figures right for a change.


----------



## WAYWARD CHERRY (Mar 16, 2014)

I will leave this shitty forum now anyway.  I've achieved what I came here to do.


----------



## editor (Mar 16, 2014)

WAYWARD CHERRY said:


> I will leave this shitty forum now anyway.  I've achieved what I came here to do.


Was that to make an arse of yourself by displaying your woeful ignorance?


----------



## WAYWARD CHERRY (Mar 16, 2014)

At the end of the day, groups like RA, AFA and Antifa are nothing more than an irritant.  They will never make as difference. 14/88


----------



## DrRingDing (Mar 16, 2014)

WAYWARD CHERRY said:


> At the end of the day, groups like RA, AFA and Antifa are nothing more than an irritant.  They will never make as difference. 14/88



Put you out of the scene for a while.


----------



## Citizen66 (Mar 16, 2014)

WAYWARD CHERRY said:


> I will leave this shitty forum now anyway.  I've achieved what I came here to do.



Thought you were fucking off?


----------



## editor (Mar 16, 2014)

WAYWARD CHERRY said:


> 14/88


You fucking clueless, stupid child.


----------



## LiamO (Mar 16, 2014)

WAYWARD CHERRY said:


> I will leave this shitty forum now anyway.  I've achieved what I came here to do.



LOL. I _knew_ you'd flounce of your own accord if you couldn't get yourself banned 

What, exactly, have you achieved? 

You certainly didn't discuss any of what you said you came on here to discuss. Again.


----------



## Fedayn (Mar 16, 2014)

WAYWARD CHERRY said:


> At the end of the day, groups like RA, AFA and Antifa are nothing more than an irritant.  They will never make as difference. 14/88



'The Mechanic' was good though eh?!


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 16, 2014)

WAYWARD CHERRY said:


> I will leave this shitty forum now anyway.  I've achieved what I came here to do.


What, fuck all? Well done.


----------



## Red Storm (Mar 17, 2014)

juice_terry said:


> is the archive site down pal ? I can't access it



It'll be back up in a week or so. 

Can't sort it out at the moment


----------



## Red Storm (Mar 17, 2014)

Got an email from the author of B_eating the Fascists? _Eve Rosenhaft. She was saying thanks for putting her book up for free on the Archive. Credit goes to Butchers though.


----------



## Blagsta (Mar 17, 2014)

WAYWARD CHERRY said:


> I will leave this shitty forum now anyway.  I've achieved what I came here to do.



To make a cunt of yourself?


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Mar 17, 2014)

WAYWARD CHERRY said:


> I will leave this shitty forum now anyway.  I've achieved what I came here to do.



If this was aimed at my good self....then it didn't work.  Nice try, but no cigar.


----------



## cesare (Mar 17, 2014)

MellySingsDoom said:


> If this was aimed at my good self....then it didn't work.  Nice try, but no cigar.


Why would it be aimed at you?


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Mar 17, 2014)

cesare said:


> Why would it be aimed at you?



I liked one of editors posts and that person immediately posted that comment up.


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 17, 2014)

Fucking hell.


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Mar 17, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Fucking hell.



Yes.  Quite.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 17, 2014)

Red Storm said:


> Got an email from the author of B_eating the Fascists? _Eve Rosenhaft. She was saying thanks for putting her book up for free on the Archive. Credit goes to Butchers though.


Excellent, good for her - some authors can be right prima donnas about their work. Translators seem to be the worst though.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 17, 2014)

WAYWARD CHERRY said:


> You have no real concept of national socialism do you?  Us 'English' are Anglo-Saxons and as such are Germanic.



And what comprises an "Anglo-Saxon", or membership of any other "Germanic" tribe  is so clear-cut, isn't it? 
Various tribes circulated backward and forward between "the east" and "the west" of the continent often enough that any categorisation of "Germanic" or "Celtic" or whatever is irrelevant.  The only "people" with any real claim to "racial purity" (although *they* have too much class to make such a claim) are the Basque.  



> I didn't see the Germans mistreating any of their other allies, like the Italians or Vichy French and they would not have mistreated us either if 'we had welcomed them with open arms.'



Yes, the Nazis certainly didn't forcibly-conscript French citizens in the Vichy zone for forced labour, did they?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 17, 2014)

WAYWARD CHERRY said:


> At the end of the day, groups like RA, AFA and Antifa are nothing more than an irritant.  They will never make as difference. 14/88



Such a minor irritant that vapid boneheads like yourself obsess about them.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 17, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> What, fuck all? Well done.



Nah.  He probably *did* achieve something.

I strongly suspect his "red-baiting" (  ) brought a rush of blood to his withered member, and allowed him to bash one out over his rumpled copy of "Asian Babes".


----------



## moonstomp (Mar 17, 2014)

Wayward on his arse in London [2007] not the best quality footage


----------



## DaveCinzano (Mar 17, 2014)

WAYWARD CHERRY said:


> I didn't see the Germans mistreating any of their other allies, like the Italians or Vichy French and they would not have mistreated us either if 'we had welcomed them with open arms.'



Say what you will about the Nazis, they were pretty much live-and-let-live.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 17, 2014)

I think something like 10,000 Nazi and pro Vichy supporteres were sumnmarly executed by the French people after occupation ended so there may have been the odd case of mistreatment.


----------



## LiamO (Mar 17, 2014)

The39thStep said:


> I think something like 10,000 Nazi and pro Vichy supporteres were sumnmarly executed by the French people after occupation ended so there may have been the odd case of mistreatment.



How ungrateful... some people, eh?


----------



## LiamO (Mar 17, 2014)

moonstomp said:


> Wayward on his arse in London [2007] not the best quality footage




FFS where were your mates, WAYWARD CHERRY? 

It's one thing running off and leaving you to take a kicking - anyone can panic when attacked -  but they could not even be bothered to come back for you long after your attackers have fled...and you a 30-year veteran of the anti-Red crusades. For shame. You'd think after all these years you would have learned that most of your race-warrior comrades are cowardly cunts, no?

Just how many times have you (or your equally-game mate, Lecomber) been left behind in the stampede to safety... deserted and left to your sorry fate by the Master Race?  Were you dropped on your head as a small child? Will you _never_ learn?

 Happily this behaviour is typical of your political fellow-travellers and has been since, well forever really.


----------



## WAYWARD CHERRY (Mar 17, 2014)

Don't know how true it is, but I've heard 'Clapton Ultras' are gonna be turned over big time soon bu CFC Headhunters and various other Nazis............


----------



## juice_terry (Mar 17, 2014)




----------



## frogwoman (Mar 17, 2014)

WAYWARD CHERRY said:


> At the end of the day, groups like RA, AFA and Antifa are nothing more than an irritant.  They will never make as difference. 14/88



Fuck off Nazi cunt.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 17, 2014)

WAYWARD CHERRY said:


> Don't know how true it is, but I've heard 'Clapton Ultras' are gonna be turned over big time soon bu CFC Headhunters and various other Nazis............


Fuck off and take this shit with you.


----------



## bignose1 (Mar 17, 2014)

WAYWARD CHERRY said:


> Liam, I have never claimed 'the reds' took Jubilee Gardens as a victory.  Yes a few of Craneys lot got a kicking, but that is their fault for being late.  I have never associated with glue sniffers and they were despised by proper 'right-wing' skinheads.  I'm here to discuss past confrontations in a civilised manner, nothing more or less.  Surely there will be interest in this book, from right across the political spectrum, as there will for yours too I am sure.


Like the fucking knob bully clown Wigan Mikes memoirs were...do me a favour


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 17, 2014)

bignose1 said:


> Like the fucking knob bully clown Wigan Mikes memoirs were...do me a favour



That makes two short and little read books then


----------



## Red Storm (Mar 18, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Excellent, good for her - some authors can be right prima donnas about their work. Translators seem to be the worst though.




I didn't realise she was a lecturer aT Liverpool uni until now.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 18, 2014)

Some reviews of Wigan Mikes book_:

5.0 out of 5 stars *FANTASTIC NONE RACIST APROACH TO TODAYS FUNDAMENTAL SOCIETY*, 12 July 2013
By 
miss c - See all my reviews

*Amazon Verified Purchase*(What is this?)_
*This review is from: Wigan Mike, My Life, My story (Paperback)*
_Wow, what can I say, firsty may I add what a compelling addictive read this gentlemans life is. I actually stumbled across this book looking for george orwells road to wigan pier to add to ones collection, what a genuine dynamic way that this gentleman has put pen to paper and put his life story in to a gripping read. what I also love about this book is, I am not right wing nor may one add I am not left wing, but this gentleman has used his skill and written about the woes of the world and todays corrupt goverment and society in a non biast none racist true story. I found reading this book to be no derrogative terms used for races apart from they may be one instance when this gentlman was in a sistuation where both parties were guilty of this, but I can assure all you readers or would be buyers that there is no derrogative terms or promotion of racism through out this gripping read, I myself was worrid about this at first. I would also like to state that there is NO mention of the ira in the terms that this gentleman drove them out of liverpool, what utter untrue events, it never stated that he did this in the book whatsoever, please I would love to know the page number to this, as I have read this book from start to the finish, please may you back up and produce page numbers please? I see this gentleman has children and grandchildren, why would a member of the public be so disigenuious and want potential harm come to this mans familly?, even for jelousy reasons this should not be said, its disgusting. Anyway I feel that maybe a few untrue personal attacks have been brought to this gentlman to discourage you from reading this book. Ok, well to sum my whole experience in a nut shell....wigan mike you are a true gentleman, you have brought to us a truly non natzi, non racist non biast book that got me gripped from page to page, hope you write another, you have accomplished many achievements through your life and troubles and delivered a realistic view of your life growing up from strength to strength and yet you still come out on top, well done! your book will be on my bookshelf next to my growing collection of geaorge orwell, godbless to you keep going, your an inspiration.

*great book well worth a read*, 8 July 2013
By 
manctony - See all my reviews

*This review is from: Wigan Mike, My Life, My story (Paperback)*
Great book one of best books I have read can't put it down I'm hooked. it the story of one boys struggle against bully's and then one mans journey to form an org and him and the other members stand up for there believes against the corrupt government and the people that deny the British people there rights

3.0 out of 5 stars *Needed proof reading*, 3 Sep 2013
By 
Robert Heaton - See all my reviews

*Amazon Verified Purchase*(What is this?)
*This review is from: Wigan Mike, My Life, My story (Paperback)*
A good read on the whole, but woefully lacking in grammar and spelling corrections.
It needs a sequel to really put the first book into a proper perspective.
A good insight into how Wigan Mike overcame the physical abuse in his formative years, which led him along the path of right wing extremism

_


----------



## Citizen66 (Mar 18, 2014)

A review for Joey Owens book (perhaps written by someone here)

http://www.katesharpleylibrary.net/9zw4j7

And it can be downloaded for free (take note, wayward cherry), options on left of screen. 

https://archive.org/details/ActionRaceWarToDoorWars


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 18, 2014)

_Rich 

*Amazon Verified Purchase*(What is this?)_
*This review is from: Wigan Mike, My Life, My story (Paperback)*
_I found this book by mistake whilst searching for something else, anyway I read some of the comments and by the looks of them he has definitely ruffled a few feathers, which gave me the impression that it might be worth a read and i'm not disappointed, it may not be well written but surely that makes it more authentic, I like the style and I like his strong beliefs, I was also shocked at some of the atrocious crimes commited against white people and the medias silence, that young girl raped, murdered and turned into kebab meat? I did a web search and gotta say how appalled I am. so iI'm giving this 5 stars as this book has definitely opened my eyes, BUY IT, READ IT AND THEN WEB SEARCH and you too will see things slightly different to how they are portrayed by the media. so well done Mr Heaton. I'll definitely be on the lookout for any future books._


Rich's previous reviews:

*Wagg Complete Puppy Dry Mix 12 kg
Price: £17.88*
_What is this?)_
*This review is from: Wagg Complete Puppy Dry Mix 12 kg (Misc.)*
_i got this for our german shepherd pup and he loves it, his poo is also firm so its easy to pick up, hes has a shiny coat and is growing well, he did have the runs for about a week when we put him on waggs but i think that was a change of food rather than anything else, i will be staying with waggs but i think a few more flavours would have been nice, they do different flavours for adult dogs, so why not puppies ?
Comment Comments (2) | Permalink | Most recent comment: Jan 2, 2013 12:55 PM GMT

*Lollipop Chainsaw (PS3)
Offered by Game Trade Online
Price: £15.36*
What is this?)
*This review is from: Lollipop Chainsaw (PS3) (Video Game)*
this game is absolutely mental, i haven't played a game like this for years this is a proper game, its doesn't take itself too serious, its jammed packed full of zombies and cheesy pop songs, its biright and colourful and its fun fun fun, I got this at a bargain price and thats a bonus, I highly recommend this game if you like a good old fashioned no brainer, put your cods and bf3s away for half an hour and pop in a copy of lollipop chainsaw, you wont be disappointed.
Comment Comment | Permalink

*White Tyre Touch Up Pen
Offered by Motionperformance - Waxacar
Price: £2.57*
What is this?)
*This review is from: White Tyre Touch Up Pen*
these are good, I ve been looking for some of these pens but some are rubbish, but i took a gamble with these and they were just what i wanted, but remember that it does take about 3 coats to get a good result but after that its just a matter of touching up. ive been buying pens like this for 10 years (locally) and they are twice the price of these, so to sum it up, excellent .
Comment Comment | Permalink





_


----------



## albionism (Mar 18, 2014)

WAYWARD CHERRY said:


> Lol, this is all you're getting:
> 
> 
> 
> It was my idea to do this gig.  About a month before the Redskins were due to play at Jubilee Gardens, along with John and Paul Burnley, I was on my way to a South East London and Kent BM meeting. These were held regularly on the last Friday of every month in the room above Welling library.  We had gotten off the tube at London Bridge and I see a poster advertising the gig.  I was elated, this was our chance to introduce these middle class commie fake 'skinheads' to a bit of skinhead White Power!  I raised the matter at the meeting with the organiser, Mick MacAndrews, now sadly dead.  It was decided we would organise an 'expeditionary force' for the gig.




So proud of his class credentials that he attacked a benefit gig for unemployed working class people...Fucking muppet.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 18, 2014)

I was at the Jubilee gardens gig and got arrested at Waterloo station battering two fash who were hiding behind a train after being chased.


----------



## LiamO (Mar 18, 2014)

The39thStep said:


> Some reviews of Wigan Mikes book_:_



never mind the reviews, the 'book' is awesomely awful... my 9-year old son could do better.

I might post a chapter of my own tome up later, just for some feedback.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Mar 18, 2014)

LiamO said:


> I might post a chapter of my own tome up later, just for some feedback.


Will it be available in large print?


----------



## LiamO (Mar 18, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> Will it be available in large print?



It will be posted on here so poor old Trev can change the font size to suit 

anyone know if there is a limit to the amount of characters per post?


----------



## Citizen66 (Mar 18, 2014)

Google suggests 10,000...


----------



## LiamO (Mar 18, 2014)

_This is a chapter from me book. I have had to post it in several parts. It is only an excerpt and could really do with being read in context - but that is not possible just now._


_I THINK I WILL BE REMOVING THESE POSTS ON FRIDAY EVENING_


*Just Another Saturday Night*


We got wind of another clandestine Blood & Honour gig at just a few days’ notice - too short to mobilise anything major. One or two of the Usual Suspects were happy as it afforded them a golden opportunity for a little freelance sniping. I was discussing their intention with Joe. Whilst he had no issue whatsoever with attacking Nazis on spec he was, as always, focussed on the bigger picture. The important thing was the venue, he maintained. Find it, nobble it for next time. Or better still, visit it afterwards, sus out the gaffer and try to get him or one of the staff onside. That would allow us advance notice of the next gig - and a crack at B&H while they were setting things up.


I volunteered to go along with the Usual Suspects with a specific brief to gather info on the Venue. My attendance was met with a raised eyebrow or two on the part of my comrades. They knew I had no real love of violence and would not normally seek confrontation in this particular arena.  But I was welcomed nonetheless.


B&H had a re-direction point for Charing Cross tube in central London. (They could not advertise their gigs publicly, cos we would nobble the venue or attack it, so they announced ‘redirection’ points where followers could assemble en masse and then be given the destination). This particular one meant they were relatively safe from attack, somewhat cheekily using the constant police presence at the Anti-Apartheid picket around the corner at South Africa House for protection. We watched from a distance as a small knot of Boneheads grew to about 20 before they were given the destination. Keeping our distance and our eyes well peeled, we followed them down (in twos rather than a little mob) to the platform and boarded the same train. On the train without a word being spoken Matty went to one end of the carriage, Tomasso to the other where they could keep an eye on whoever got on or off, leaving two innocuous pairs sitting in the middle, but not together.


The Bones got off at Finchley Road tube. The stakes were now raised considerably as we knew there were likely to be large numbers of them nearby so Tomasso shadowed them and we followed at a distance. The Skins turned right out of the tube station. We went left and walked up two bus stops. Then we got on the next bus heading back down the road, taking care to sit near the top of the stairs, just in case. I was impressed by the quietly efficient way one lad had automatically gone across the road so he could scan the bus for opposition forces before we got on and another had stood back to scan the upper deck from our side.


Going down the road by bus gave us a number of advantages. Firstly we had a great view without drawing attention to ourselves and secondly a small group of determined people could hold the upper deck of a bus with relative ease if we were spotted and attacked.


The traffic as ever on Finchley Road was at a crawl. We scanned up and down the road looking for Skins. None could be seen. We were beginning to think that we would have to get off and follow the next group to some backstreet pub when I looked to the left and below me was a heaving sea of shaven heads inside the North Star pub. Like a lot of old London boozers it had a high ceiling and frosted/patterned glass on the windows up to a height of about 7 foot to afford the punters some privacy.  The tops of the windows were clear though and our vantage point gave us a clear view into the whole front of the pub. It was absolutely rammed with them. Assuming there was a function room out the back, there had to be at least 2 or 300 of them. Ooops!


----------



## LiamO (Mar 18, 2014)

*Ye Olde Swiss Cottage*


Nothing was said other than by our eyes - there were always casually-dressed Fash around too so we did not want to be overheard on the bus - and we knew we had to keep our wits about us. I was now happy though as the venue was identified and, as far as I was concerned, the job was safely done. All that was left was to leave the area, maybe heading back to Charing Cross and picking off a few stragglers to keep the Usual Suspects happy. So we stayed on for maybe two bus stops and got off at the Swiss Cottage pub. A quick peek into the over-sized Pool room which housed about 4 tables showed it to be Bonehead-free so in we went for a pint and a plotting session. We were stood facing the bar; CeeJay was on the corner of it and was the only one who could see through to the other room. His face dropped momentarily and then, in a ridiculously calm voice, he said ‘Move away from the bar, slowly… NOW. Ian Stuart is looking straight at me’. Oops again! Ian Stuart Donaldson was the lead singer with Skrewdriver and the poster-boy for British Neo-Nazism. CJ showed his usual balls of steel, keeping calm and feigning nonchalance as the shaven headed Stuart stared at the ‘Nigger’ in direct view.


Here we were, with the Fuhrer himself within striking distance. But we did not, could not, know whether this was a golden opportunity to launch a crushing pre-emptive strike - to chop off the serpent’s head as it were - or if we were seconds away from a bloody end ourselves. My arse was twitching now and I was cursing the fact that we were pretty much tool-less, mostly at my suggestion/insistence. I had argued that since we were headed into the middle of town it was stupid to risk getting a tug and getting nicked for carrying an offensive weapon before we even got started. At least Colin was tooled-up. He usually was. He had his favourite on him. It was the inside of a fire extinguisher, the metal cylinder that holds the gas, wrapped in Elastoplast for extra grip and to make fingerprinting impossible. We were a long way from the front door in a large room.


If they spotted us and piled in we were banjaxed. Instinctively we took up positions in a corner. Best to get your back against a wall. CJ however lands down with the drinks (having automatically changed the round from pints of lager to Light and Lagers; that way you got a half of lager in a pint glass and bottle of Light Ale to pour into it - two weapons for the price of one. He was actually disgusted that they did not sell bottles of Grolsh. A Grolsh bottle was the undisputed king of pub weaponry, thick, heavy, well-balanced and deadly. (The only other thing that came near was those dimply pint mugs with a handle that you got your whole fist into. But they were quite rare except in posh boozers which we did not usually frequent) and reassures us that he was sure Stuart did not seem at all alarmed by his presence. He added that he could not even see who Stuart was stood next to, never mind how many of them there actually were.


Seamie volunteered to go and check it out. He was just down from Manchester and his face would definitely not be known. He strolled back in and said “there’s only two of them - Stuart and some skinny cunt - they’re just sitting on two stools at the bar”. The ‘skinny cunt’ turned out to be Ken McLellan and the only skinny part of him was his waist. He was six foot odd and could and would (as we were about to find out) fight like two men and a wee boy.


We had to move fast before they were joined by their mates. It was agreed that I would hold the door to secure the escape route and the others would pile in, glass Stuart, ignore his mate and get the fuck out. No fuckin about. No fighting. No macho posturing. 10 seconds in and out. We had no idea how the rest of the punters would react. The Swiss Cottage was a strange pub. It stood in a posh business area but also has some big old council estates around it. By day it was very much the preserve of the Business classes, but at night the crowd was much more local and much more mixed. If there were off-duty coppers, a football or Rugby team, a local firm who might take umbrage to the invasion of their turf, or even just some public-spirited citizens, it could make our safe escape difficult. Too many variables. The area itself was also very exposed, lots of open space at one of the main traffic junctions in North London. The best means of escape was into and through the council estate across the road (it’s all offices now). We agreed to split into twos once we were all safely across the road and to meet up at The Globe pub at Baker Street tube.


We went outside, walked round to the other door of the pub, ran over the plan again and then it was on. As soon as I opened the door and held it open as the lads piled in, I knew our plan had king-size holes in it. Instead of a sizeable Lounge full of punters, there was just a small Snug Bar. There was just one couple in the corner and our two boneheads at the bar. But for all we knew the actual Lounge could’ve been full of them and now - with the barmaid already screaming the place down - was not the time for investigation, or indeed hesitation. We couldn’t just press a rewind button or call a Time-out. We just had to get on with it.


In the boys went and quickly closed the 5 yards to the bar. His mate had his back to the door but Stuart saw them coming. His eyes widened but he did not react. ‘Alright boys?’ said Collie as he swung his arm and brought down his weapon on Stuart’s head splitting it instantly. He fell forward into his mate who pushed him off as he jumped off his tool. Stuart went down under a flurry of blows. Pure instinct and adrenaline drove him to try and lift himself . The ‘skinny cunt’ proved a different proposition and immediately jumped up and started fighting like fuck despite shipping some heavy blows.


I had to pull myself away from spectating so I didn’t really see what happened next. I had a job to do watching the street and yet more doors into the Lounge of the pub. There followed the longest four seconds of my life because as I turned I saw a police car sailing across the junction at the traffic lights and the plod in the passenger street was looking straight at me. I did my best to look casual but I’m sure the whites of my eyes would have been visible at 100 yards. I had no idea if he could see what was happening inside the pub or if my behaviour was enough to rouse his suspicions. I was blocking most of the doorway and the angle was hard to work out in an instant. I knew the area well and that there was a big triangle of buildings/road they would have to drive around if they were coming back for a nosey. Anyway the 10 seconds was up and I began yelling “OUT. OUT. OUT. NOW!” I could see that a couple of the boys really wanted to stay and finish the job but that was not the script we had agreed. The important thing now was to get everybody safely out and away. Both Stuart and his mate were now prostrate, although McLellan was fighting to get back to his feet as the last one of ours sped past me.


We ran across the road into the Estate, grateful for the poor quality of light therein and lots of corners. As we split up we clocked some local teenagers who had seen us come onto their estate and who were immediately aware that we were not Jehovah’s Witnesses. Although they were young they could still have been a problem, but Matty just goes “Alright boys? If the Old Bill ask you ain’t seen us, alright?” Their eyes lit up now they had been made co-conspirators and one says


“No problem mate. What you done anyway?”


“Tell you another time” Matt laughs over his shoulder as he trots off.


Run for two corners. Split up. Run for two corners. Walk. No matter how much the blood is pumping. Make yourself walk. Take your hat off. Walk. I turn back towards Swiss Cottage tube. “Are you fuckin mad” asks Seamus.


“Nah. They’ll be looking for someone running… the other way” I reply.


You can access the Tube Station via subways that won’t take you within 50 yards of the pub. That’s what we did. The adrenal rush was wearing off now. The heart still pumping. Sweat trickling down your face. That’s a bit of a giveway. A quick wipe and walk. Walk slowly. Hard to do, but hard to beat. Sirens wailing and blue lights flashing as we force ourselves to stroll. Down into the Station. Onto the train. Safe.


----------



## LiamO (Mar 18, 2014)

*Relaxing at The Globe *


Me and Seamie were already on our second pint at Baker Street when the others rolled up. Both pairs had stopped for a pint _en route_. This was another tactic that had developed over the years. If possible, get off the streets asap until things have calmed down. Obviously doing this mob-handed might lead to a group of agitated strangers drawing attention to themselves in the pub and get them lifted. But in ones and twos it was ideal. Even if you are pulled by the OB after leaving the pub, you can plead innocence, point out that you’ve been in there having a quiet pint and invite them to check with the barman. Most coppers would not even bother their arse to check.


The Globe was a huge pub heaving with tourists and six young men sat in agitated conversation would attract no attention. The Post-mortem immediately began with one lad demanding who was shouting “OUT. OUT” when the ultimate victory was so close. I said it was me and that was what we had agreed. He was mad that we had not stayed to ‘finish the job’. Yes, we could have stayed and done Stuart badly (or properly). But we could also be facing a 5-stretch each or have been captured by their mob. Thankfully CJ, the most bloodthirsty of us all, was also a thinker and agreed with me. Though obviously there were some regrets. Seamie had neglected to tell us explicitly that the two buckos were in a room virtually on their own. We had neglected to ask him for further details and just thought he meant they were the only two skinheads present amongst a much larger crowd. Either way we had not had the right info beforehand.


Every aspect of the operation was gone over in forensic detail. This might seem nit-picky to some, ghoulish to others but it was only by such open, honest and sometimes blunt reflection that lessons were learned. And besides if there were any harsh words to be said to anyone, this was the best time to say them - to their face. Much better this way than people go away harbouring grudges and with doubt in their minds.


There was also some discussion about the new AFA Security wing which was in its infancy, which gave me the opportunity to make a suggestion. Everyone knew it was vital to keep AFA as politically democratic and open as possible. But as the ranks swelled and more people who we did not know too well joined, it was equally important that most of the illegal stuff could be planned, discussed and carried out by those who _needed_ to know, rather than jeopardised by including those who _wanted_ to know. All agreed that this was vital and that loose talk could be costly. So I suggested that we should use this night as a challenge for us six. To see how tight we could keep the info. To test ourselves for loose talk. (I’d like to say that this suggestion was based on my incisive intellect but it was based purely on both political pragmatism and, in truth, my own determination to keep my own name out of dispatches - and my arse out of jail).


There was also a slightly different agenda at work too. There was something of an elephant in the room. Some senior people felt that the Usual Suspects had become a law unto themselves and that their constant freelancing - picking off badged-up bones at all times of day and night - whilst commendable also had the potential to be damaging. There were concerns on the impact on morale if they came badly unstuck one night; concerns about big jail sentences for violence that had no real political benefit; concerns about… and finally concerns about a small group of people beginning to see themselves as some kind of elite force, above everybody else and beholden to no-one. The Security wing would hopefully keep this brave, dedicated, but occasionally volatile grouping on the inside. Nobody was against them dishing out brutality, it just needed to be done in a more professional and considered way. The challenge was how to instil discipline amongst an outfit where nearly everybody was so bitterly anti-authority. Mutual respect and honest discourse was the only way but it was challenging to say the least.


As much as we appreciated the specific talents of some lads, the _violent tail_ could not - and would not - be allowed to wag the _political dog_. The politics had to come first. We had seen at first-hand the devastating impact on the IRSP/INLA when a group of the very best ‘business’ people disappeared up their own arses and lost the run of themselves. Feuding and mayhem were the result _(Blood & Honour would themselves fall victim to this trait in later years, with a nasty internal feud culminating in a murder for which Martin Cross and some little fat bloke called Charlie received Life sentences)._


To be honest this distance between the thinkers and the doers had never been a problem for Red Action as the leaders were there because of their track record on the street and were often the first ones through the door, rather than some intellectual political elite who were above getting their hands dirty. There was no graduate fast-track option for ‘clever’ people. But as things progressed certain faces became well-known so these people could not actually engage with the type of stuff the Usual Suspects were regularly up to. This left room for some unscrupulous/delusional individuals to make ridiculous side-of-the-mouth comments questioning the ‘bottle’ of some of the leaders - the same leaders who had built the organisation from nothing.


----------



## LiamO (Mar 18, 2014)

*South Africa House*


Anyways, the night was still young so we decided to make a move. I thought it would simply be a case of heading into safer territory and getting a lock-in for a late drink. CJ and Colin though wanted more. They, not unreasonably, reckoned that if the Fash were going to hit back tonight it would be at the 24-hour Anti-Apartheid Picket outside the South African Embassy. They said that given we were the ones who had kicked the Nazi-beehive, we owed it to the people on the picket to offer our assistance in what might prove to be their hour of need. I smiled wryly as a number of things were patently obvious to me.


a) we would not be particularly welcome at the picket


b) our well-intentioned advice would be condescendingly ignored and our presence unwanted and


c) this concern for the welfare of the pickets was really the boys being greedy and wanting another bite at the Fash before the night was out.


Nonetheless it was a plausible enough appeal and I felt duty-bound to join them.


On arrival we informed the organisers that B&H were having a rather large gig up the Finchley Road, had suffered a severe set-back, and that they should take the necessary precautions afterwards. Naturally we did not include a description of our recent actions. They smiled and assured us that they were veterans at this kind of thing and had been there for years, hail or shine, man and boy… blah blah. I stifled a chuckle as CJ looked at them fit to burst. After a while I remembered I hadn’t eaten in maybe six hours and was ravenous with hunger. I suggested a trip to McDonalds. The boys declined, deciding to stay at or near the picket, just in case.


So off I toddled with the order. Ten minutes later I landed back with two Quarterpounder with cheese meal and four Fishburger meals for our veggie comrades. It still makes me laugh when I compare many people’s stereotypical view of a Vegetarian - a weedy, yoghurt-knitter wearing sandals and a big beard - with the reality of this bunch of Desperadoes. They were now however nowhere to be seen. I assumed they had been called away on business and would return in due course. I also clocked that the picketers were not exactly falling over themselves to be associated with me. Two minutes later there was a bit of a kerfuffle a few yards away.


A small skinhead girl was screaming at the Police. She was leading her massive (and I mean six-foot-two, built-like-a-brick-shithouse massive) fella by the hand. He was covered in claret down one side of his shaved head, holding his eyes and sobbing like a child. “What happened?” asked the copper, moving back slightly to avoid the streams of Master-Race snot that was flowing readily from his nose. Between sobs - and directly in front of the same essentially harmless, mostly middle-class student picketers whom he had passed a few minutes previously, whilst Sieg-Heiling, snarling and hurling abuse and threats - he roared “Some fuckin nigger gassed me”. That’ll be CJ, I thought. I allowed myself a wry smile at his swift conversion from goose-stepping bully-boy to sobbing child as the copper enquired “Where did this happen?”

“Up there” he wailed, pointing to the more dimly-lit twilight zone between South Africa House and Leicester Square.

“What did he look like?”

“He looked like a big fuckin nigger”

“Well that’s not giving us much to go on, is it?” said the irate copper.


I chuckled to myself as I wandered off to find the boys and barely managed to stop myself from thanking my boneheaded friend for the helpful directions. I had travelled but a few yards when I was joined by two of the lads who had come back to look for me (or maybe for their grub?). They immediately questioned me as to what yer man had been saying to the Plod and did he give their descriptions? I assured CJ (who was mixed-race and light-skinned) that I reckoned he was safe enough as the Police were probably looking for Shaft. A few minutes later when the Veggie-boys were tucking into their grub I recounted the whole tale in gory detail, causing one of them to choke on his Fishburger with laughter. Another was so amused at this sight that he shot his Coke out through his nose. Of course there was no shortage of volunteers to give them a good slap on the back to help them out. Which ended up in a pantomime, and tears rolling down several faces.


We decided that discretion would be the better part of valour at this point as we had already pushed our luck and split up to head homeward. I just wanted to make sure we got the last Tube as there was a backstreet boozer run by an old family friend from Galway where I knew we would be welcome for a late one. ‘Woodpecking’ or knocking the door after closing time is generally considered a bit cheeky, but I knew we had more than enough Brownie points built up to allow it occasionally. And anyway, I really needed to unwind after the night I had had. Me, Matty Blagg and Seamie headed off together. Mattie was not much of a drinker so it was just me and Seamie for the pub, which was just off Seven Sisters road.


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## LiamO (Mar 18, 2014)

*A Quiet Journey Home*


So we get on the Tube, still laughing away. At the very next stop a black-clad figure gets on and plants himself right opposite me with his grip bag on the floor between his high-leg black Doc Martens. He is wearing a White Power T-shirt under his black flight jacket - the sleeves of which are covered in Nazi badges. Even the photocopied fanzine he was immersed in was a Nazi one.  I glance across and Matty has already clocked him. I casually walk over to Matty who says “That’s Martin Cross, Skrewdriver’s drummer. We HAVE to do him”.


Surely to fuck they could not be this stupid, could they? Not after Stuart and McLellan getting weighed in earlier on? I mean the guy still had to travel home but what about safety in numbers? What about at least being switched on and keeping your eyes peeled? Was it a come-on or was Cross really this dumb?


At the next station, yer man is still sat there so I get off and walk to one end of the train and Seamus goes to the other. We both get back on and as the train takes off again we are both walking back towards the middle through the adjoining doors checking out the carriages as we go for Fash or plod. There are none. I am back within a minute. Seamus cannot get back til the train stops again cos the trains actually come in two halves and there are no adjoining doors right at the middle section. You weren’t supposed to do this on tubes but people moving through these doors would by no means be an unusual sight, especially on a late night train. Provided you weren’t walking like you were John Wayne, you would attract very little attention.


Clear, we confirm. “Right, we’ll give him til Finsbury Park and if he hasn’t got off before then we’ll drag the cunt off”. Seamus and I melt away again leaving Matty alone watching our prey like a hawk. I can’t believe yer man hasn’t twigged anything. He gets up at Holloway Road. Matty is right behind him at the middle doors, all delighted with himself as not only is Cross there for the taking, it’s virtually on Matty’s doorstep so he won’t be far from home afterwards. Seamus is at one end of the carriage, me the other so that whichever way he goes he has one of us in front and one behind. Cross looks around him but neither sees nor senses danger.


As we walk amongst the thinning crowd Matty trots past both Cross and Seamus and bounds up the stairs. I know what he is at. He will go one way at the entrance, Seamus the other. Whichever way Cross chooses he is fucked and I am behind him so he can’t escape back unto the station. I can’t see him leave but as I exit the station I see Seamus going left and follow. We both follow Cross, but where the fuck is Matty? He is nowhere in sight. We look at each other and shrug. As Cross walks on there is still no sign of Matty.


Cross looks over his shoulder and sees me and Seamus. He does not bolt but he can now sense something in the air and puts his head down and quickens his pace with his radar now obviously switched on. We’ve all been there. Sensing menace behind us, listening intently for the sound of running feet, but not wanting to just leg it in case you are wrong and look like a complete cunt running away from nothing. Unfortunately for him, he is now concentrating on what is behind him. As he walks past an alleyway, a hand comes out and yanks him, comic-book style, clean off his feet and drags him into the alley. I look around and there is nobody around or at least not looking our way. Seamus joins Matty to give yer man a few digs but Matty has already put him away.


With a final boot to the head, Matty picks up Cross’ bag and strolls out of the alley. ‘Are you keeping that Matty?’ I ask.

‘Too fuckin right’ he replies.

“You better fuck off then. We’ll walk. See you back at yours?” Matty is gone in a flash. He is on his home turf and takes off down a side street. We stick to the main road cos we only have a vague idea of where we are going.


As we trot down the road to get some distance before we can start walking I look back and see Cross staggering out of the alley and sitting down on the pavement. At least he’s not dead I think, cheerfully. Within a couple of minutes we hear sirens. We keep walking as calmly as we can. Another few minutes later we look back and we see a Police car heading straight towards us. It is slowing down and clocking people as it goes by them. We keep our eyes front and force ourselves to walk really slowly. Maybe too slowly, cos the cop car glides in beside us. The one on the passenger side goes “Alright lads?” He has his hand on the handle, ready to spring it as he clocks us for signs of panic/guilt. He gets none. Instead I take a step towards him and place my hands above his window “Alright, what’s up?” I say giving him the full alcohol breath treatment and feigning drunkenness.


“Seen any dodgy characters about”


“It’s Holloway Road on a Saturday night mate… it’s full of fackin dodgy characters innit. ‘Ere, any chance of a lift?”


He laughs and says “Yeah. A slim chance and no fackin chance.” He and his mate crease themselves at his incredible wit and off they go. Seamus smiles at me as they drive off in search of some pwopah nawty geezers and shakes his head as he says ‘Nice one. You cheeky cunt’. I feel like taking a bow.


When we get back to Matty’s gaffe he already has the bag on the table. It contains a few T-shirts (including an Ulster Loyalist one which was later a prize at an AFA Raffle), drum sticks and a wah-wah peddle (which The Blaggers tried and threw away in disgust cos it was pure shite) some Nazi fanzines and personal stuff. Unfortunately the address book is practically brand new and only has a few numbers in it. He also has some anti-biotic tablets and cream and a document from a pox clinic confirming he has Chlamydia (which I have to look up later in the week at the library cos there was no Google in those days).


After reinforcing the no loose-talking rule I made my way home, happy and contented after a good night’s work. I blanked the pub of course. It’s one thing being a little bit cheeky and woodpecking a pub door. It’s entirely another making a noteworthy, after-hours entrance after being involved in a brutal assault and robbery, especially when you have no real idea of how badly hurt Cross was. One thing to take a small liberty, but another to take the fuckin piss by dragging the publican and his punters into it and possibly putting his license at risk. You don't shit where you eat and all that.


When I got home my girlfriend was sleeping like a baby. As I slipped in beside her she asked “Good night?”

I simply replied “Yeah, not bad. Just a few pints with the lads. Quiet enough like”.


That no loose-talking thing… it needs to start at home.


----------



## Citizen66 (Mar 18, 2014)

Was this in Beating the Fascists, because I've definitely heard it before?


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## equationgirl (Mar 18, 2014)

A chapter on it's own is hard to put into context (who is the first person 'I' in this chapter, for example?) but it's well written.


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## gawkrodger (Mar 18, 2014)

@ Citizen66. 

LiamO posted a greatly shortened/abbreviated section of this a few months back


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## Citizen66 (Mar 18, 2014)

gawkrodger said:


> @ Citizen66.
> 
> LiamO posted a greatly shortened/abbreviated section of this a few months back



Ah right, cheers. I thought that was the case but searched this thread and it threw nothing up  Although it could have been on a different one i suppose.


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## Fozzie Bear (Mar 19, 2014)

I think it's great LiamO

Like equationgirl says it's hard to put into context - this section is clearly focused mainly on the action. And I really enjoyed it, but would hope that the book has more levels than that. And I'm sure it will. 

I'm assuming that people aren't identifiable from the names you've used (apart from Matty )?


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## LiamO (Mar 19, 2014)

Fozzie Bear said:


> I think it's great LiamO



Why thank you kindly.



Fozzie Bear said:


> Like equationgirl says it's hard to put into context - this section is clearly focused mainly on the action.



yes. It is shorn of context - but hopefully this thread gives even this excerpt some amount of context.




Fozzie Bear said:


> And I really enjoyed it, but would hope that the book has more levels than that. And I'm sure it will.



It certainly does and it certainly will. The primacy of politics is a key principle - and the reason I am writing it.



Fozzie Bear said:


> I'm assuming that people aren't identifiable from the names you've used (apart from Matty )?



Absolutely. Other than Matty (RIP) the others have had their names changed. I think they will still be recognisable to those who knew them.

Colin was easy. I just gave him the name he used to give to the Police whenever he was stopped by them


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## Spanky Longhorn (Mar 19, 2014)

Very well written, I'm looking forward to this now


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## LiamO (Mar 19, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> Was this in Beating the Fascists, because I've definitely heard it before?



To the best of my knowledge, whilst some of these events may have been referred to in passing in BtF, no account has ever been published of them.  Even at the time I don't think Red Action made any public acknowledgement of them for the obvious legal reasons and also to keep the Fash guessing.

When they were reviewing the events of the night in question - when 2 members of their main band got ambushed many miles apart on the same night - there was probably a high level of paranoia involved. We were always keen to encourage them in this paranoia and their post-event rationalisations/ fairy-tales.

Stuart himself was fond of claiming in interviews that in the Swiss Cottage pub there were about 25 or 30 Reds, armed to the teeth with bats and bars, trying to smash his hands etc in a prolonged (ahem) brutal attack.

The reality is that there were 5 combatants, only one was tooled-up and the incident lasted less than 15 seconds.


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## Citizen66 (Mar 19, 2014)

Looking forward to the book. Any idea when it'll be published or are you way off that yet?


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## DaveCinzano (Mar 19, 2014)

Okay, own up - who popped WAYWARD CHERRY?


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## DotCommunist (Mar 19, 2014)

its got to be worth a read when it emerges. I enjoyed BtF for the discussions surrounding the political angles- there was a good bit of 'frank exchange of views' in that also but I cannot say I've had enough of reading about avowed fash getting a foot in the arse


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## LiamO (Mar 19, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> Okay, own up - who popped WAYWARD CHERRY?



 Think may have been the chaps in the video posted above


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## Fedayn (Mar 19, 2014)

Not a bad read that Liam O.


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## LiamO (Mar 19, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> Looking forward to the book. Any idea when it'll be published or are you way off that yet?



I've only 25,000 words done. need twice that I think. Don't hold your breath.


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## Citizen66 (Mar 19, 2014)

LiamO said:
			
		

> I've only 25,000 words done. need twice that I think. Don't hold your breath.



A book fair launch would be good but that seems an unreasonable timescale. I'm pretty patient when it comes to things I want but want done well. Just waited an age for a cold war game that went a year over schedule. Unfortunately it got cancelled.


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## juice_terry (Mar 19, 2014)

Cracking stuff LiamO


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## barney_pig (Mar 19, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> A book fair launch would be good but that seems an unreasonable timescale. I'm pretty patient when it comes to things I want but want done well. Just waited an age for a cold war game that went a year over schedule. Unfortunately it got cancelled.


Luckily the real thing looks like it's well on schedule.


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## LiamO (Mar 20, 2014)

For various reasons I took those excerpts down for now.

Dunno why I bothered me arse taking them down really as I have just clocked that they have been pasted in their entirety  on S****front. 

So I've put 'em back up.

Venceremos! etc


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## Citizen66 (Mar 20, 2014)

LiamO said:
			
		

> Dunno why I bothered me arse taking them down really as they have been pasted in their entirety  on S****front. Can someone go on there and demand they are taken down as an affront to white pride or whatever?



Stormcunt is hard to join. I only ever managed to post in the heavily moderated 'alternative views' forum and died of boredom pretty quickly.

Aren't the US big on protecting intellectual property rights?


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## LiamO (Mar 20, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> Stormcunt is hard to join. I only ever managed to post in the heavily moderated 'alternative views' forum and died of boredom pretty quickly.
> 
> Aren't the US big on protecting intellectual property rights?



Dunno, I've never joined. I just had a butcher's to see if Wayward Cherry had copied and pasted it anywhere (just copied a couple of sentences into Google and up popped S****front).



Citizen66 said:


> Aren't the US big on protecting intellectual property rights?



Sure I posted it on here on a public forum, didn't I?

I doubt you need permission to copy and paste stuff from one forum to another. Anyway, fuck 'em.


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## Fozzie Bear (Mar 20, 2014)

Good advert for the book LiamO 

Marketing people get paid to come up with stuff like that. 

I think it's great when nazis read well written stuff about their heroes getting their comeuppance too


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## Fedayn (Mar 20, 2014)

LiamO said:


> For various reasons I took those excerpts down for now.
> 
> Dunno why I bothered me arse taking them down really as I have just clocked that they have been pasted in their entirety  on S****front.
> 
> ...



I think we can assume that 'credite posteri' is Eddie Cherry.


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## LiamO (Mar 20, 2014)

Fedayn said:


> I think we can assume that 'credite posteri' is Eddie Cherry.



Chose a 'foreign' username too  where's his pride in his own country, eh? EH?

Running round spouting Latin (What did the Romans ever do for us?) bit poncy, middle-class that, ain't it?

I might make him my marketing director/publicist though.


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## equationgirl (Mar 20, 2014)

What are they saying about the extract out of interest?  I didn't think it painted the fash in a great light.


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## Citizen66 (Mar 20, 2014)

LiamO said:
			
		

> Sure I posted it on here on a public forum, didn't I?
> 
> I doubt you need permission to copy and paste stuff from one forum to another. Anyway, fuck 'em.



You need permission to publish words that you don't own the intellectual property rights on wherever the medium you found them and whatever the medium you publish them to.  Quoting a bbc news report is expected, posting up segments of a yet-to-be-published book may prove more problematic. You have registered it for copyright? If not do so now. I could copyright your words leaving you unable to publish them although you'd have a weak argument against me given you'd posted the words here first.


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## DaveCinzano (Mar 20, 2014)

LiamO said:


> I might make him my marketing director/publicist though.



Your very own Max Clifford!












ALLEGEDLY.


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## equationgirl (Mar 20, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> You need permission to publish words that you don't own the intellectual property rights on wherever the medium you found them and whatever the medium you publish them to.  Quoting a bbc news report is expected, posting up segments of a yet-to-be-published book may prove more problematic. You have registered it for copyright? If not do so now. I could copyright your words leaving you unable to publish them although you'd have a weak argument against me given you'd posted the words here first.


Copyright is an automatic free right in the UK so there is no need or legal requirement to register it. There is no official registration scheme in the UK and although several exist, the IP industry has generally been of the viewpoint that they are of limited value to the general public.

Liam could finish his posts with 'Copyright [real name] 2014' or '(c) [real name] 2014' to make it clear that they are a copyright work, and even go so far as to add a disclaimer such  as 'All rights reserved. This work must not be reproduced in whole or in part in any format without the written permission of the copyright owner.'


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## FridgeMagnet (Mar 20, 2014)

As equationgirl says there is no need to register copyright. Nobody can come along and "copyright your words". The fact that they've been posted here at a specific date and time should be sufficient proof should anyone try to claim otherwise (which I've never heard of in this sort of context tbh). LiamO is explicitly claiming copyright as the author here rather than saying they are quotes from someone else.

People quoting the pieces here on other forums... well, legally it's probably fair use.


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## Lazy Llama (Mar 20, 2014)

> Your posts are yours, you keep copyright in them and no-one can legally use them elsewhere without your permission;
> 
> By posting, you give permission for your post to appear on urban75; and The collection and the database that are urban75 belong to urban75 as a whole.


source: http://www.urban75.net/forums/help/terms


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## LiamO (Mar 20, 2014)

Thanks for clearing that up FridgeMagnet and Lazy Llama.

I really don't care where they are posted/reposted tbh as long as the likes of wayward cherry does not think they can quote them verbatim to pad out their own sub-11+ tomes


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## equationgirl (Mar 20, 2014)

LiamO said:


> Thanks for clearing that up FridgeMagnet and Lazy Llama.
> 
> I really don't care where they are posted/reposted tbh as long as the likes of wayward cherry does not think they can quote them verbatim to pad out their own sub-11+ tomes


Yes because my post clearly contributed nothing to this point 

If you are concerned about copying in the strictest sense you will have to monitor his publications for how much of your extract he is including in them.


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## equationgirl (Mar 20, 2014)

FridgeMagnet said:


> As equationgirl says there is no need to register copyright. Nobody can come along and "copyright your words". The fact that they've been posted here at a specific date and time should be sufficient proof should anyone try to claim otherwise (which I've never heard of in this sort of context tbh). LiamO is explicitly claiming copyright as the author here rather than saying they are quotes from someone else.
> 
> People quoting the pieces here on other forums... well, legally it's probably fair use.


I think the 'fair use' exception may only apply to quoting small parts of the extract though - if the whole thing was copied verbatim into another work it might not apply.


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## FridgeMagnet (Mar 20, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> I think the 'fair use' exception may only apply to quoting small parts of the extract though - if the whole thing was copied verbatim into another work it might not apply.


It does generally but if what he's posting here are extracts in themselves...

I just wanted to follow up on what you posted to reassure LiamO that nobody could just come along and half-inch his work and claim it for their own. (Well, they could try, but they'd be in a poor situation.) They can quote it for the purposes of criticism or illustration or whatever but his copyright on his work remains his.


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## equationgirl (Mar 20, 2014)

FridgeMagnet said:


> It does generally but if what he's posting here are extracts in themselves...
> 
> I just wanted to follow up on what you posted to reassure LiamO that nobody could just come along and half-inch his work and claim it for their own. (Well, they could try, but they'd be in a poor situation.) They can quote it for the purposes of criticism or illustration or whatever but his copyright on his work remains his own.


No, wasn't having a go at you, more trying to point out that Liam saw fit to thank everyone but me.

Copyright registration schemes in the UK have always been a sore point in the industry. There's a few kicking about but as it's an automatic right and free there's not an obvious need for them. There's a well-established and reputable copyright system for the US which seems to work well but US IP law is a strange beast at the best of times.


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## Citizen66 (Mar 20, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> Copyright is an automatic free right in the UK so there is no need or legal requirement to register it. There is no official registration scheme in the UK and although several exist, the IP industry has generally been of the viewpoint that they are of limited value to the general public.
> 
> Liam could finish his posts with 'Copyright [real name] 2014' or '(c) [real name] 2014' to make it clear that they are a copyright work, and even go so far as to add a disclaimer such  as 'All rights reserved. This work must not be reproduced in whole or in part in any format without the written permission of the copyright owner.'



But if someone contested it with a date stamped document and a witness, his would be the weaker argument. Unlikely as it seems, a post on the internet isn't the strongest case in a court of law because the code is open to manipulation.


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## FridgeMagnet (Mar 20, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> But if someone contested it with a date stamped document and a witness, his would be the weaker argument. Unlikely as it seems, a post on the internet isn't the strongest case in a court of law because the code is open to manipulation.


People can always claim that they came up with something first using fraudulent details. There is no way of stopping that, should they wish to - putting a copyright notice on a post does nothing there. It is exceptionally rare, though, and _not posting things_ makes it much more likely that they would succeed in such a claim.


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## Citizen66 (Mar 20, 2014)

Anyway,  copyright becomes more a shade of grey when it comes to factual stuff I think. Nobody can hold a copyright over an event otherwise there'd be massive problems for historians. The issue is with lifting writing word for word and passing it off as your own.


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## Citizen66 (Mar 20, 2014)

FridgeMagnet said:


> People can always claim that they came up with something first using fraudulent details. There is no way of stopping that, should they wish to - putting a copyright notice on a post does nothing there. It is exceptionally rare, though, and _not posting things_ makes it much more likely that they would succeed in such a claim.



I don't understand what you mean. If I wrote some words that I intended to publish for monetary recompense that i had registered as copyright, if you then passed that work off as your own I would have a case against you. Do you think Vanilla Ice didn't have to pay anything for using the exact bassline from Queen's Under Pressure? There's a process in law that needs to ascertain that the work was someone else's. It doesn't matter if the bassline obviously sounds the same, Queen would have to prove they wrote it, and when.


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## FridgeMagnet (Mar 20, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> I don't understand what you mean. If I wrote some words that I intended to publish for monetary recompense that i had registered as copyright, if you then passed that work off as your own I would have a case against you. Do you think Vanilla Ice didn't have to pay anything for using the exact bassline from Queen's Under Pressure? There's a process in law that needs to ascertain that the work was someone else's.


There's no such thing as "registering" (eta: in this country anyway, and even in the US it's just a formal process before legal action). You have copyright on anything you create as soon as you create it. I could _lie_ and say I came up with it first and you just copied it - if it came to court, evidence would have to be weighed.


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## Citizen66 (Mar 20, 2014)

FridgeMagnet said:


> There's no such thing as "registering" (eta: in this country anyway, and even in the US it's just a formal process before legal action). You have copyright on anything you create as soon as you create it. I could _lie_ and say I came up with it first and you just copied it - if it came to court, evidence would have to be weighed.



My understanding is that in days of yore 'registering' work would be done by submitting the work to a solicitor and be date stamped with a witness present then locked in some vault somewhere. The online registration services available can replicate this process nowadays sans solicitor. Or are you suggesting that isn't watertight? Posting to an online forum, as I'm doing in this post now, can make an argument for it being copyright but it's a weak case because the date stamps of the forum can be manipulated and the forum can be hacked. More info here:

http://www.copyrightservice.co.uk


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## Citizen66 (Mar 20, 2014)

Registering a work and submitting updates whilst in production also shows how the work matured over time, thus strengthening your case over and above presenting a text (or music, or whatever) and claiming it as your own work.


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## equationgirl (Mar 20, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> My understanding is that in days of yore 'registering' work would be done by submitting the work to a solicitor and be date stamped with a witness present then locked in some vault somewhere. The online registration services available can replicate this process nowadays sans solicitor. Or are you suggesting that isn't watertight? Posting to an online forum, as I'm doing in this post now, can make an argument for it being copyright but it's a weak case because the date stamps of the forum can be manipulated and the forum can be hacked. More info here:
> 
> http://www.copyrightservice.co.uk


I'm aware of these services. I work in IP.But look at the costs involved for something that is essentially a free property right.

Also, copyright protects the creative expression of an idea, rather than the idea itself. In particular:


> *literary works*, including novels, instruction manuals, computer programs, song lyrics, newspaper articles and some types of database
> *dramatic works*, including dance or mime
> *musical works*
> *artistic works*, including paintings, engravings, photographs, sculptures, collages, architecture, technical drawings, diagrams, maps and logos
> ...



www.ipo.gov.uk


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## FridgeMagnet (Mar 20, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> My understanding is that in days of yore 'registering' work would be done by submitting the work to a solicitor and be date stamped with a witness present then locked in some vault somewhere. The online registration services available can replicate this process nowadays sans solicitor. Or are you suggesting that isn't watertight? Posting to an online forum, as I'm doing in this post now, can make an argument for it being copyright but it's a weak case because the date stamps of the forum can be manipulated and the forum can be hacked. More info here:
> 
> http://www.copyrightservice.co.uk


They would sort of say that, being a company that makes money from it 

Really, nobody uses these people. It doesn't provide you with protection against plagiarism - somebody could quite easily claim that they wrote all that stuff before, and come up with other evidence. The companies have no evidence that what you submit to them isn't already copyright to somebody else. At best it's documented evidence that you did a certain thing at a certain time that would be considered in court if it came to court. All sorts of other evidence also would be - online backups, emails to publishers, etc.


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## equationgirl (Mar 20, 2014)

What FridgeMagnet and myself are saying is that these copyright registration services in the UK are not necessary to claim ownership of a creative work, not that such services aren't watertight.


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## Citizen66 (Mar 20, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> I'm aware of these services. I work in IP.But look at the costs involved for something that is essentially a free property right.
> 
> Also, copyright protects the creative expression of an idea, rather than the idea itself. In particular:
> 
> ...



What is your suggestion then? I took that route previously because i knew no other. What that website suggests is right though, if you can provide a body of evidence that you created the work over time then that's a strong argument in an intellectual property dispute. This process can be done for free?


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## FridgeMagnet (Mar 20, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> What is your suggestion then? I took that route previously because i knew no other. What that website suggests is right though, if you can provide a body of evidence that you created the work over time then that's a strong argument in an intellectual property dispute. This process can be done for free?


It can be done for free by just having the body of work. If you've been taking photos, you have the negatives or RAW files. If you've been writing a book, you have all the notes you've made, emails back and forward discussing it, different drafts etc.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 20, 2014)

Plus a lot of those items be date-stamped by the device you're using, so a trail of evidence can be readily established for free - which is essentially the same service that an third party service is offering. They don't do anything special (although someone did try to convince me to use some complicated envelope once).


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## Citizen66 (Mar 20, 2014)

FridgeMagnet said:


> They would sort of say that, being a company that makes money from it
> 
> Really, nobody uses these people. It doesn't provide you with protection against plagiarism - somebody could quite easily claim that they wrote all that stuff before, and come up with other evidence. The companies have no evidence that what you submit to them isn't already copyright to somebody else. At best it's documented evidence that you did a certain thing at a certain time that would be considered in court if it came to court. All sorts of other evidence also would be - online backups, emails to publishers, etc.



I suppose you're right. In fact i don't know what their secret ingredient is, just that presenting emails and such as evidence isn't strong because anything to do with computer time stamps can be manipulated. I guess the best thing is to present the work in all its drafts to show the work from infancy to maturity. That's easy enough with something hefty like a novel or script, not so easy with snappy lyrics or guitar riff though.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Mar 20, 2014)

The DMCA has confused a lot of this, incidentally. Anyone can get anything hosted on a US site taken down by filing a DMCA request claiming that it's their copyright - the hosts have to do that, or they lose protection from being sued if it _is_ a copyright breach. No proof is required and there are no real legal sanctions against people who lie. Under such circumstances you can then counter-file saying "no this is mine" and they (should) bring it back up again.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Mar 20, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> I suppose you're right. In fact i don't know what their secret ingredient is, just that presenting emails and such as evidence isn't strong because anything to do with computer time stamps can be manipulated. I guess the best thing is to present the work in all its drafts to show the work from infancy to maturity. That's easy enough with something hefty like a novel or script, not so easy with snappy lyrics or guitar riff though.


The easy answer is that they don't have a secret ingredient.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 20, 2014)

Any IP dispute will be based on evidence, usually contemporary evidence from the time the IP was created. Depending on what the work is, the evidence may be different. For example, a lot of patent evidence can come down to lab notebooks written by R&D people, countersigned by two others and dated, and the lab books have to be in a certain hardbound format. This dates from before the US changed to a first to invent system, so you had to have a strong virtually unimpeachable evidence chain. But it's a good practice to encourage.

For say a painting, you wouldn't do that, you'd have preliminary sketches, research work, technique studies, false starts perhaps. If all that is signed and dated you have a pretty strong picture of how and when the work was created.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2014)

so this is how the thread ends


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 20, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> I suppose you're right. In fact i don't know what their secret ingredient is, just that presenting emails and such as evidence isn't strong because anything to do with computer time stamps can be manipulated. I guess the best thing is to present the work in all its drafts to show the work from infancy to maturity. That's easy enough with something hefty like a novel or script, not so easy with snappy lyrics or guitar riff though.


Again, you might have a dated note of the lyrics - a lot of musicians have lyric books for example, and a recording of some riffs you're experimenting with. digital recordings will come with a date stamp and time stamp. Even a few pieces of evidence would show how a song was created.


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## equationgirl (Mar 20, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> so this is how the thread ends


Better this way than with the fash


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Mar 20, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> so this is how the thread ends


© T S Eliot


----------



## Citizen66 (Mar 20, 2014)

FridgeMagnet said:


> The easy answer is that they don't have a secret ingredient.



Well that could have saved me a few quid.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2014)

FridgeMagnet said:


> © T S Eliot


i can show you the drafts


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## malatesta32 (Mar 21, 2014)

Beating The Plagiarists!


----------



## chilango (Mar 21, 2014)

Smash, smash, smash the Reds,
Copies get done by Skinheads!


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 21, 2014)

No Reprint


----------



## DaveCinzano (Mar 21, 2014)

Copy 18


----------



## krink (Mar 22, 2014)

copyright-wing


----------



## laptop (Mar 22, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> Well that could have saved me a few quid.



Anyway, there's a much cheaper method, that I'm surprised I can't find a mention of.


Save your stuff to some tangible medium: paper, flash card, whatever.
Post it to yourself Royal Mail SIgned For (formerly Recorded Delivery)
Sign for it
Don't open it
For good measure, staple the posting receipt through the flap of the envelope

But equationgirl is (of course) right. This has nothing to do with acquiring copyright protection.

In fact, it's most used for *ideas* - that are *not* protected by copyright - things such as proposals for gameshow formats, sent to a production company heavily stamped "In commercial confidence". Production companies are notoriously lairy about nicking ideas.


----------



## Sean (Mar 23, 2014)

Going back to Liam O's sample chapter, though: great read, thanks for posting it.


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## malatesta32 (Mar 25, 2014)

stinky miffed with the fash! 2.10 in!


and from VNN nazi shit tanks: 'In fact if you look closely, from 2.39 into the video, you can see the 'leader' himself, Will 'the beast' Browning, doing fcuk all as his NS pal is booted out of the venue! LOL, CD18, the comedy machine.'


----------



## Jeremy Vile (Mar 26, 2014)

malatesta32 said:


> stinky miffed with the fash! 2.10 in!
> 
> 
> and from VNN nazi shit tanks: 'In fact if you look closely, from 2.39 into the video, you can see the 'leader' himself, Will 'the beast' Browning, doing fcuk all as his NS pal is booted out of the venue! LOL, CD18, the comedy machine.'




I put this video up a few days ago on U75 in the music section, i was at this gig.
I have since found out that Stinkey is not so much a hero after all. 
These gigs at the Bridge House and elsewhere are put out by Combat 18. Yeah I didn't believe it either when I was told. 
This is their cover they use, Iceni Promotions. 
http://iceni-promotions.webs.com/ 
And you can see a Rejects flyer on there from a few years back showing the "union" is nothing new. 
By chance I clicked on the flyer and it opens up a photo bucket page of all the other gig flyers, and heres where it gets interesting. In the new HNH magazine they run a feature on Combat 18 and key figures named include a Nick Field. The name of the user of the photo bucket page when it opens is - Nick Field.
You cannot tell me that Stinkey and co are not aware of just who is putting their gigs on, and the other bands for that matter. Is it a case of turning a blind eye for a few pound? Because thats what it seems to me. 
Yeah he gave that scumbag what for and it was fantastic to see/witness, but it all feels a bit sour now to me frankly. 
Stinkey Turner - Hero? or Villain?


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 26, 2014)

article about NIcky Crane on BBC website today: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-25142557


----------



## LiamO (Mar 26, 2014)

Jeremy Vile said:


> *You cannot tell me that Stinkey and co are not aware of just who is putting their gigs on, and the other bands for that matter. Is it a case of turning a blind eye for a few pound? Because thats what it seems to me. *
> Yeah he gave that scumbag what for and it was fantastic to see/witness, but it all feels a bit sour now to me frankly.
> Stinkey Turner - Hero? or Villain?



So why not post up exactly what you have done to investigate this? and the results of those investigations? Instead of posting HnH/daily mail style 'no-smoke-without-fire' insinuations.

I understand that Stinky may not necessarily be a friend of the Left, but he certainly appears to be an avowed and long-term public enemy of the Fash... not on an anonymous Forum, but up front and personal... see from 4.46 here...





and that - in the absence of any actual _evidence_ from you - is good enough for me.


----------



## Jeremy Vile (Mar 26, 2014)

LiamO said:


> So why not post up exactly what you have done to investigate this? and the results of those investigations? Instead of posting HnH/daily mail style 'no-smoke-without-fire' insinuations.
> 
> I understand that Stinky may not necessarily be a friend of the Left, but he certainly appears to be an avowed and long-term public enemy of the Fash... not on an anonymous Forum, but up front and personal... see from 4.46 here...
> 
> ...




So you tell me then why on the misc links on that Icini/C18 page,  G&R record label is plugged, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G&R_London.
Your of course the big expert on the fascisto music scene after all.  So come on them Mr Know it all, why are C18 plugging this particuar record label and no others.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Mar 26, 2014)

Far right loons have always tried to attach themselves to mainstream people. 

There's all sorts of shite in the Skrewdriver biography about how members of Motörhead and whatever had a chat with the band once. 

I don't think it means anything in the absence of other evidence. 

"Losers try to demonstrate links with successful people" is not headline material.


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## Jeremy Vile (Mar 26, 2014)

I understand and see that fozzie, but this is not a one off, its a continuous link, and from what I can gather it is a West Ham affiliated one, you may even notice that Iceni page is in west ham colours. Perhaps a case of "we're all west ham" regardless of politics.
If I have been to presumptuous i apologise, but i would wager you will never see Mensi play gigs where such doubts arise around the organisers.....


----------



## DrRingDing (Mar 26, 2014)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Losers try to demonstrate links with successful people" is not headline material.



Sounds like the SWP.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 26, 2014)

DrRingDing said:


> Sounds like the SWP.


Sounds like people who get invited to the opening of Firebox


----------



## Anudder Oik (Mar 26, 2014)

It's plain to anyone who sees the video that he means what he says when he confronts the sieg heiling idiot. Good on him.

I saw the Cockney Rejects at the Bridge House twice in 1981 and it looked well different as Back then it was rammed, sweaty and chock a block with hundreds of skinheads. At one of the gigs, word was going round that Daily Mail gutter journos had been hanging around outside offering a quid for kids to pose doing nazi salutes and that it would be right for everyone to tell them to fuck off if approached. I think that may have even come over on the mic from the man himself in the video. Anyway, half way thru the gig, a skin lunges over the bar and smashes the camera out of the hand of a Sounds photographer, Martin Dean, thinking he was from the Daily Mail. 

I still have a drumstick with west ham ribbon on it, a souvenir that was thrown into the crowd. Leaving the gig, the old double decker bus (69) was packed and extremely noisy, half the people who were upstairs, including myself, got off thru the back window fire escape, hanging down on the rail and dropping to the street. Those were the days.


----------



## DrRingDing (Mar 26, 2014)

The39thStep said:


> Sounds like people who get invited to the opening of Firebox



Ooh, you wouldn't let it lie.


----------



## LiamO (Mar 26, 2014)

Jeremy Vile said:


> So you tell me then why on the misc links on that Icini/C18 page,  G&R record label is plugged, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G&R_London.
> Your of course the big expert on the fascisto music scene after all.  So come on them Mr Know it all, why are C18 plugging this particuar record label and no others.



No. That is not how this works. _You _are the one casting aspersions on straight-goers like Stinky. _You_ are the one who must back them up. It's easy to sling mud. Not so easy to back it up with evidence.

The Left in general made a huge mistake in dismissing Oi! as a Fash scene first time round. Surely you don't think it wise to repeat this stupidity?



Jeremy Vile said:


> Your of course the big expert on the fascisto music scene after all.



I have first-hand knowledge of a particular time many years ago. It's ancient history. I have not lived in Britain for over 20 years so I know fuck all about any music scene much less this one - although I do fancy myself as an authority of sorts on the Irish traditional music scene ( I am happy to report it is currently Fash-free btw).

Even when I was involved in Cable Street Beat (25 years ago) I happily stood outside on Doors, rather than listen to the racket inside so I certainly did not concern myself with the minutiae of Oi/Punk or any other noisy music even back then. I was more into Otis and Wilson than Mensi and Stinky.


----------



## albionism (Mar 26, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> article about NIcky Crane on BBC website today: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-25142557


old


----------



## steeplejack (Mar 27, 2014)

really interesting chapter from Liam...well written and funny

hard to credit that in the 1980s people were walking about openly dressed in Nazi regalia, reading Nazi fanzines on public transport.


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## framed (Mar 27, 2014)

Jeremy Vile said:


> I understand and see that fozzie, but this is not a one off, its a continuous link, and from what I can gather it is a West Ham affiliated one, you may even notice that Iceni page is in west ham colours. Perhaps a case of "we're all west ham" regardless of politics.
> If I have been to presumptuous i apologise, but i would wager you will never see Mensi play gigs where such doubts arise around the organisers.....



Yes, you're right about Mensi, he has consistently refused to deal with any promoter with a dodgy political history, even when his contemporaries have been willing to turn a blind eye.

In Stinky's case, I believe he genuinely hates the fash, based on his family background and his friendship with people like Cass Pennant and other black lads who went with the ICF. There may, however, be something to your theory that the _'we're all West Ham together'_ mentality blinds some people to the dodgy characters around them. Wasn't there a similar outfit (or maybe the same one?) that tried to organise a gig with fash and non-fash bands in the Boleyn Pub not so long ago?

Some of the most dodgy political characters around West Ham in recent years have been the Italian 'tourists' from Lazio... even Cass managed to get himself embroiled with them. It doesn't make him a bad guy imho, he's a businessman with an eye to the next book and merchandising possibility... I blame that c@nt Di Canio.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Mar 27, 2014)

Stinky Turner's autobiog is actually quite a good read fwiw:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Cockney-Reject-Jeff-Turner/dp/1844548813


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## framed (Mar 27, 2014)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Stinky Turner's autobiog is actually quite a good read fwiw:
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Cockney-Reject-Jeff-Turner/dp/1844548813



Whit, nae kindle edition?  Looks interesting, I think I'll order one of the second hand copies on offer. Cheers.


----------



## Anudder Oik (Mar 27, 2014)

On the story about the van attacked at a roundabout. Around the time I was going to gigs at the Bridgehouse (and the Lyceum), a guy approached me and 5 or 6 mates when we were hanging around in the high street. He was a short bloke wearing a military uniform who spoke in an upper class twerp accent, which immediately provoked stifled sniggering from us. He asked if we knew certain skinheads from another area and explained that he had recently been at an attack on a van full of "lesbians" at a roundabout, somewhere up north (stuck in traffic?), which in our view was hardly something to brag about despite ourselves harbouring the typical teenage fear of homosexuality. 

He then went on to explain he was an NF organizer and asked if any of us "chaps" (yes, he used that word) would be interested in joining. There was a sort of an embarrassed silence as we all stood there and thought who the fuck is this prick. I don't think anyone even answered him.

We mimicked his accent for a week till we got bored of the joke and then forgot about it.

Years later (90's) I recognized him in a photo in searchlight. He was up in Manchester organizing something with gays.


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## LiamO (Mar 28, 2014)

Jeremy Vile said:


> but i would wager you will never see Mensi play gigs where such doubts arise around the organisers.....



You are comparing apples and oranges. You would expect _Mensi_ takes that stance, because

1. He is a avowedly political being, whereas Jeff Geggus is not.

2. Mensi was involved at the 'cutting edge' of anti-fascism and his principled stance is informed by that

3. because he is not stupid and has a long memory - the infamous Astoria gig was also sold as a non-political event, was it not?

4. Because Mensi would have to fight his own corner - The Cockney Rejects have the whole Firm thing with which to make any Fash behave themselves.


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## LiamO (Mar 28, 2014)

Anudder Oik said:


> On the story about the van attacked at a roundabout. Around the time I was going to gigs at the Bridgehouse (and the Lyceum), a guy approached me and 5 or 6 mates when we were hanging around in the high street. He was a short bloke wearing a military uniform who spoke in an upper class twerp accent, which immediately provoked stifled sniggering from us. He asked if we knew certain skinheads from another area and explained that* he had recently been at an attack on a van full of "lesbians" at a roundabout*, somewhere up north (stuck in traffic?), which in our view was hardly something to brag about despite ourselves harbouring the typical teenage fear of homosexuality.



First time I've ever been called a lesbian, (I think!).


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## Red Storm (Mar 29, 2014)

The new archive domain is antifascistarchive.org

this one works at the moment --- http://afaarchive.wordpress.com/


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## Citizen66 (Mar 29, 2014)

I went there when it was down and now I can't remember what for.  something by some Author who thanked you for uploading her work there I think.


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## DaveCinzano (Mar 29, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> I went there when it was down and now I can't remember what for.  something by some Author who thanked you for uploading her work there I think.





Red Storm said:


> Got an email from the author of B_eating the Fascists? _Eve Rosenhaft. She was saying thanks for putting her book up for free on the Archive. Credit goes to Butchers though.


----------



## Citizen66 (Mar 29, 2014)

Cheers. Actually I could have just searched myself.


----------



## manny-p (Mar 30, 2014)

Was that Eddie Whicker making an appearance on the thread earlier?


----------



## bignose1 (Mar 31, 2014)

Anudder Oik said:


> On the story about the van attacked at a roundabout. Around the time I was going to gigs at the Bridgehouse (and the Lyceum), a guy approached me and 5 or 6 mates when we were hanging around in the high street. He was a short bloke wearing a military uniform who spoke in an upper class twerp accent, which immediately provoked stifled sniggering from us. He asked if we knew certain skinheads from another area and explained that he had recently been at an attack on a van full of "lesbians" at a roundabout, somewhere up north (stuck in traffic?), which in our view was hardly something to brag about despite ourselves harbouring the typical teenage fear of homosexuality.
> 
> He then went on to explain he was an NF organizer and asked if any of us "chaps" (yes, he used that word) would be interested in joining. There was a sort of an embarrassed silence as we all stood there and thought who the fuck is this prick. I don't think anyone even answered him.
> 
> ...



The guy was Chris Payne..


----------



## tony.c (Mar 31, 2014)

manny-p said:


> Was that Eddie Whicker making an appearance on the thread earlier?


No, another fash Eddie. There's a clue at post #5347.


----------



## connollyist (Apr 19, 2014)

framed said:


> Whit, nae kindle edition?  Looks interesting, I think I'll order one of the second hand copies on offer. Cheers.


I always thought you should do a book, maybe with a few articles from TAL or a TAL collection (like The End book) with a few your own and others stories thrown in?


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## framed (Apr 19, 2014)

connollyist said:


> I always thought you should do a book, maybe with a few articles from TAL or a TAL collection (like The End book) with a few your own and others stories thrown in?



It's a project I'm working on mate... 

My shambolic approach to work means there's no end in sight...


----------



## connollyist (Apr 19, 2014)

mon framed,we want to read it... !


----------



## josef1878 (Apr 19, 2014)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Stinky Turner's autobiog is actually quite a good read fwiw:
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Cockney-Reject-Jeff-Turner/dp/1844548813



It is a good read, ghost written by Bushell who manages to squeeze far too many mentions of himself in, even if he was their manager back then.


----------



## Limerick Red (Apr 20, 2014)

connollyist said:


> mon framed,we want to read it... !


Ldn mustn't be that interestin if yer on the fuckin internet at half 10 on a Saturday night


----------



## connollyist (May 1, 2014)

I might of had a bit of drink in me at the time..


----------



## phildwyer (May 1, 2014)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Stinky Turner's autobiog is actually quite a good read fwiw:
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Cockney-Reject-Jeff-Turner/dp/1844548813


 
A veritable classic of the genre.  Morrisey turns out to be an unlikely fan iirc.


----------



## malatesta32 (May 2, 2014)

the morrissey intro is hilarious. cant see him boozing with 'the firm' tho! the battle of birmingham is quite messy.


----------



## phildwyer (May 2, 2014)

malatesta32 said:


> the morrissey intro is hilarious. cant see him boozing with 'the firm' tho! the battle of birmingham is quite messy.


 
And Stinky turns out to be a diamond geezer. 

He maks the decent point that for all the violence they suffered, the CRs never carried guns.  Which made me wonder: why on earth not?  Life would have been a lot easier for them if they had.  As it was they seem to have kicked someone's head in, or had their own heads kicked in, or both, almost every day between 1977 and 1986.  Must have been exhausting.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (May 2, 2014)

To be honest there are few situations in which one would not find the addition of guns an improvement. I remember mother deploying her pearl handled revolver in the queue in Sainsburys when I was a child to great success.


----------



## phildwyer (May 2, 2014)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> To be honest there are few situations in which one would not find the addition of guns an improvement. I remember mother deploying her pearl handled revolver in the queue in Sainsburys when I was a child to great success.


 
I may well be wrong, but I doubt the good Mrs. Longhorn had to contend with hundreds of NF Chelsea headhunters trying to sever her bollocks with a Stanley knife every Friday and Saturday night for over a decade.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (May 2, 2014)

You have obviously never shopped in Shirley Sainsburys on discount cheese morning.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Jun 23, 2014)

Not sure where to put this, but possibly of interest:

*How the police won ‘The Battle of Digbeth’*
http://weare40.west-midlands.police.uk/how-the-police-won-the-battle-of-digbeth/

_Some time before Saturday 18 February 1978 West Midlands Police learned that 200 Young National Front members intended to hold a meeting in Digbeth Civic Hall and that several organisations opposed to the National Front intended to march in protest. The potential for violence and bloodshed was obvious..._

(via Paul Gilroy on twitter)


----------



## Red Storm (Jun 23, 2014)

What's the score with Joey Owens? Was he a key figure? I never really heard much about him in conversation. 

Talking about him in work, I didn't realise he got tried for murder.


----------



## malatesta32 (Jun 24, 2014)

joey owens was around liverpool in the 1980s. he claims the NF ruled the roost which was rubbish. there were a few confrontations, 1 notable 1 with a solid DAM member who kicked a tooth out of his head. the fash were kicked out of town and put the windows thru the autonomy centre and the feminist bookshop. which is hardly running the town is it? he went on to become BNP and griffins bodyguard. he was replaced after a while which led to him being bitter beyond belief and, after being slagged off on VNN, disappeared from fash circle. 
he was also involved in some daft assassination conspiracy with lecomber. larry O'H knows more about this. owens wrote his memoir which i read and to save you the bother its bollocks. he was done, i think, for attacking the mother of his son, hangs out with scouse gangsters and in general is a sad, bitter old man who has achieved nothing. when drunks like the watmoughs, morrison, tommy and dave on VNN think you're a loser, you are.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Jun 25, 2014)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Not sure where to put this, but possibly of interest:
> 
> *How the police won ‘The Battle of Digbeth’*
> http://weare40.west-midlands.police.uk/how-the-police-won-the-battle-of-digbeth/
> ...



The account, like the title, suffers from being sexed up. For example it describes a significant number of a large crowd 'concealing their faces'. With what? And why? The idea of aerial photography to id suspects was unknown in '78. Indeed police did not really even take photos on the ground. Unless you were captured on the day the chances of retrospective action were about zero. It also refers to anti-fascists as 'militant'; something else not really in vogue until early 90's.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Jun 25, 2014)

Joe Reilly said:


> The account, like the title, suffers from being sexed up. For example it describes a significant number of a large crowd 'concealing their faces'. With what? And why? The idea of aerial photography to id suspects was unknown in '78. Indeed police did not really even take photos on the ground. Unless you were captured on the day the chances of retrospective action were about zero. It also refers to anti-fascists as 'militant'; something else not really in vogue until early 90's.


 
Thanks Joe.

I did wonder about the use of the term "Militant".

I also narrowed my eyebrows at the "Jamaican People's National Party" being out in force in Digbeth. An odd electoral strategy, you would think.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jun 26, 2014)

The article appears to be a recently-written account reflecting on one aspect of the policing of an event in 1978; as such the use of descriptive terms which may have been unusual at the time, such as ‘militant’, does not seem that odd. On the other hand, writing it in the authentic style of a mid-seventies police officer is likely to have come over as pastiche.

The article makes no mention of ‘aerial photography’, only ‘aerial surveillance’ in the context of tracking crowd movements and making general observations.

The history of the PNP-UK: 

http://pnpuk.com/pnpuk history.html

See also:

http://thephoenixnewspaper.com/arti...s-national-party-uk-birmingham-group-agm.html


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jun 26, 2014)

This 2011 ‘from the archives’ article in the_ Birmingham Mail_ about the day's events suggests that a camera was fixed to the helicopter to record events, but that the results of this trial were unsatisfactory:

http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/new...battle-of-digbeth-and-a-callous-murder-155067


----------



## treelover (Jun 26, 2014)

> notable 1 with a solid DAM member who kicked a tooth out of his head. the fash were kicked out of town and put the windows thru the autonomy centre and the feminist bookshop*




*News From Nowhere, it happened all the time, I nearly got stabbed in a poor attempt to stop it going through while I was waiting for the tunnel bus.


----------



## dennisr (Jun 26, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> The history of the PNP-UK: http://pnpuk.com/pnpuk history.html



Funnily enough Militants (with a big M - supporters of the Militant Tendency - what is now the Socialist Party/CWI) played quite a role in the founding of the PNP-UK youth movement. The PNP could draw large crowds. This was a britain where a big section of carribean youth felt abandoned by the labour party and under siege.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Jun 27, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> The article appears to be a recently-written account reflecting on one aspect of the policing of an event in 1978; as such the use of descriptive terms which may have been unusual at the time, such as ‘militant’, does not seem that odd. On the other hand, writing it in the authentic style of a mid-seventies police officer is likely to have come over as pastiche.
> 
> The article makes no mention of ‘aerial photography’, only ‘aerial surveillance’ in the context of tracking crowd movements and making general observation.



He describes a crowd of 5,000 and claims "many of the demonstrators had concealed their faces". That is the main point of contention.


----------



## malatesta32 (Jun 27, 2014)

treelover said:


> *News From Nowhere, it happened all the time, I nearly got stabbed in a poor attempt to stop it going through while I was waiting for the tunnel bus.



that's the name! i seem to remember the shop workers staying overnight at 1 point. typical fash tried to burn it down once thus giving ample ammunition over book burning. eejits.


----------



## treelover (Jun 27, 2014)

it was like the Alamo, incredible and in some ways irrational hatred towards by lots of 'scallies' etc.


----------



## Red Storm (Jun 30, 2014)

This Mickey O'Farrell ticket has been brought to my attention.

If the price is right I'm going to get it for the Archive.

Bringing it to peoples attention so there's not a little bidding war and just in case there is a better cause for it to go too.


----------



## juice_terry (Jun 30, 2014)

What's the new address for the archive ?


----------



## Red Storm (Jun 30, 2014)

juice_terry said:


> What's the new address for the archive ?



www.antifascistarchive.org


----------



## juice_terry (Jul 1, 2014)

Cheers bud


----------



## malatesta32 (Jul 1, 2014)

Red Storm said:


> This Mickey O'Farrell ticket has been brought to my attention.
> 
> If the price is right I'm going to get it for the Archive.
> 
> Bringing it to peoples attention so there's not a little bidding war and just in case there is a better cause for it to go too.



redskins, manchester poly during the miners strike. one of the best gigs i've ever seen. righteous music, righteous politics and great clothes!


----------



## Joe Reilly (Jul 24, 2014)

With C4 News official confirmation this evening that the Rolan Adams campaign was also targeted by undercover police and possibly other agencies, the chapters on the campaign and the distinctly curious behavior of uniformed police on the day at both Abbey Wood and Kensington Library (BTF pages 219 -235)) demand (if only for future reference) a second look.

Ps 'Operation Blackshirt' page 285 also worth a a contextual gander


----------



## miktheword (Jul 24, 2014)

Joe Reilly said:


> With C4 News official confirmation this evening that the Rolan Adams campaign was also targeted by undercover police and possibly other agencies, the chapters on the campaign and the distinctly curious behavior of uninformed police on the day at both Abbey Wood and Kensington Library (BTF pages 219 -235)) demand (if only for future reference) a second look.
> Ps 'Operation Blackshirt' page 285 also worth a a contextual gander
> .




can you clarify Joe, is that 'uninformed' or
un (non) uniformed OB...maybe I've read it wrong...


----------



## Joe Reilly (Jul 24, 2014)

miktheword said:


> can you clarify Joe, is that 'uninformed' or
> un (non) uniformed OB...maybe I've read it wrong...



Apologies. Should have read 'uniformed'. Although how much the wooden tops on ground were _informed_ about on a day to day basis is another matter. As there may have been another agency involved.

The main point is police are now claiming that the various campaigns were infiltrated to gather intelligence on 'violent groups using the family campaigns for their own ends' when in fact the evidence shows that the police used the Rolan Adams campaign in order to try and settle accounts with the militants. And went to extraordinary lengths to do so. To such an extent that the political campaign against AFA inside the campaign by professional anti-racist elements working to a state agenda, which eventually led to it's ignominious collapse may well have been regarded as collateral damage.


----------



## miktheword (Jul 24, 2014)

and even if they didn't have the  motivation of settling scores, the OB would have had a battle in their attempts to do damage to the Adams, Duggal, Lawrence campaigns as much as some of the 'revolutionaries' did


e.g. Jasper 'let's hold an anti racist march in Bermondsey and don't do any ground work...maybe I'll get a grant after the stampede'

for Adams,  read p223 in particular BtF and despair.

memory might be failing but seem to recall Richard Adams walked out of one meeting due to such shenanigans.

If they didn't exist, the state would invent them.


not meant as a derail, focus on OB of course.


----------



## Red Storm (Jul 29, 2014)

http://www.redquillbooks.com/portfolio-posts/ideology-fascism-far-right-britain/

*The Ideology of Fascism and the Far Right in Britain
*
This book examines the precise nature of fascism as both a system of ideas and a mode of political practice and it looks at the history of organizations and parties loyal to this particular creed in Britain. It is a critical examination of the relative utility of the various theories that have attempted to explain the fascist phenomenon, identifying weaknesses in conventional interpretations. Hayes re-asserts the value of Marxism as an analytic mechanism capable of evaluating the experience of fascism and seeks to identify how, and under what circumstances fascism might re-emerge. Written in a concise and accessible style by an academic who played an active role in anti-fascist politics in Britain, The Ideology of Fascism and the Far Right in Britain will be of considerable value to anyone seeking a clearer understanding of fascism and/or, crucially, how best to resist it.


----------



## Red About Town (Sep 5, 2014)

Not sure where else to put this. A great photo of the Red Action and Celtic Fans Against Fascism banners in Belfast in the early 90's at a Sinn Fein march/rally.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Sep 6, 2014)

When there were far left people who looked normal


----------



## krink (Sep 6, 2014)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> When there were far left people who looked normal



and now they all look like you

sorry, that's rotten but you did walk right into that one!


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 6, 2014)

Red Storm said:


> http://www.redquillbooks.com/portfolio-posts/ideology-fascism-far-right-britain/
> 
> *The Ideology of Fascism and the Far Right in Britain*
> 
> This book examines the precise nature of fascism as both a system of ideas and a mode of political practice and it looks at the history of organizations and parties loyal to this particular creed in Britain. It is a critical examination of the relative utility of the various theories that have attempted to explain the fascist phenomenon, identifying weaknesses in conventional interpretations. Hayes re-asserts the value of Marxism as an analytic mechanism capable of evaluating the experience of fascism and seeks to identify how, and under what circumstances fascism might re-emerge. Written in a concise and accessible style by an academic who played an active role in anti-fascist politics in Britain, The Ideology of Fascism and the Far Right in Britain will be of considerable value to anyone seeking a clearer understanding of fascism and/or, crucially, how best to resist it.




Is this malatesta's new book?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 6, 2014)

The39thStep said:


> Is this malatesta's new book?


At risk of foolishly wandering onto a lethal metajoke landmine, I'll bite - no, it's not, this is:

http://www.akpress.org/militant-anti-fascism.html


----------



## past caring (Sep 6, 2014)

I see it's being discounted already.


----------



## malatesta32 (Sep 7, 2014)

hayes was on the BTF cover. has anyone read his book?


----------



## Red About Town (Sep 7, 2014)

New book on left wing groups in Britain since 1956. Against the Grain.

Here is a list of chapters and contributing authors:

Introduction: the far left in Britain from 1956

_Evan Smith and Matthew Worley_

*Part I Movements*

1 Engaging with Trotsky: the influence of Trotskyism in Britain

_John Callaghan_

2 The New Left: beyond Stalinism and social democracy?

_Paul Blackledge_

3 Narratives of radical lives: the roots of 1960s activism and the making of the British left

_Celia Hughes_

4 Marching separately, seldom together: the political history of two principal trends in British Trotskyism, 1945–2009

_Phil Burton-Cartledge_

5 Opposition in slow motion: the CPGB’s ‘anti-revisionists’ in the 1960s and 1970s

_Lawrence Parker_

6 Dissent from dissent: the ‘Smith/Party’ Group in the 1970s CPGB

_Andrew Pearmain_

7 British anarchism in the era of Thatcherism

_Rich Cross_

*Part II Issues*

8 Jam tomorrow? Socialist women and Women’s Liberation, 1968–82: an oral history approach

_Sue Bruley_

9 Something new under the sun: the revolutionary left and gay politics

_Graham Willett_

10 ‘Vicarious pleasure’? The British far left and the third world, 1956–79

_Ian Birchall_

11 Anti-racism and the socialist left, 1968–79

_Satnam Virdee_

12 Red Action – left-wing pariah: Some observations regarding ideological apostasy and the discourse of proletarian resistance

_Mark Hayes_

13 Anti-fascism in Britain, 1997–2012

_David Renton_


----------



## framed (Sep 7, 2014)

Red About Town said:


> New book on left wing groups in Britain since 1956. Against the Grain.
> 
> Here is a list of chapters and contributing authors:
> 
> ...




Very pricey from what I hear, but I'd like to read a some of those contributions...


----------



## Red Storm (Sep 7, 2014)

framed said:


> Very pricey from what I hear, but I'd like to read a some of those contributions...



£75 but I think it's going to come out in paper back. I've spoke to Evan Smith a few times, he was enthusiastic about the Anti-Fascist Archive. 

I'm going to get it from the Manchester Uni library.


----------



## framed (Sep 7, 2014)

Interestingly, there was an academic conference this weekend in Glasgow Uni at which Mark Hayes and David Renton spoke, among others...

Got this from one of those who attended...

"Renton compared UKIP to a 'snowglobe' - I have no idea what he was talking about. Great moment when UAF claimed credit for driving BNP off a Glasgow Estate. AFA member in audience said, *"You weren't there, I was. We drove them out..." *Very awkward silence."


----------



## Red Storm (Sep 7, 2014)

framed said:


> Interestingly, there was an academic conference this weekend in Glasgow Uni at which Mark Hayes and David Renton spoke, among others...
> 
> Got this from one of those who attended...
> 
> "Renton compared UKIP to a 'snowglobe' - I have no idea what he was talking about. Great moment when UAF claimed credit for driving BNP off a Glasgow Estate. AFA member in audience said, *"You weren't there, I was. We drove them out..." *Very awkward silence."



I've not been overly impressed with Renton's work.


----------



## Red Storm (Sep 7, 2014)

Red Storm said:


> £75 but I think it's going to come out in paper back. I've spoke to Evan Smith a few times, he was enthusiastic about the Anti-Fascist Archive.
> 
> I'm going to get it from the Manchester Uni library.



I can take it out for people in the Manchester area too.

As long as they give it back before the late fee fines


----------



## framed (Sep 7, 2014)

Red Storm said:


> I can take it out for people in the Manchester area too.
> 
> As long as they give it back before the late fee fines



So... I have to move to Manchester to get a read at it then?


----------



## Red Storm (Sep 7, 2014)

framed said:


> So... I have to move to Manchester to get a read at it then?



Postage would only be £2.80 there and £2.80 back if you wanted to do it that way .


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Sep 7, 2014)

Red Storm said:


> I've not been overly impressed with Renton's work.



His recent booklet about the killing of Blair Peach is good.


----------



## malatesta32 (Sep 9, 2014)

framed said:


> Very pricey from what I hear, but I'd like to read a some of those contributions...



try and order it through your local library. renton's when we touched the sky has a typical go at 'squaddism' and spends half a dozen pages worrying about political violence.


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 9, 2014)

malatesta32 said:


> try and order it through your local library. renton's when we touched the sky has a typical go at 'squaddism' and spends half a dozen pages worrying about political violence.


Renton simply trots out the mass action of the United front orthodoxy. Did anyone read the SW review of Hanns book?


----------



## malatesta32 (Sep 9, 2014)

'trots out' - are you bignose in disguise?
http://londonsocialisthistorians.blogspot.co.uk/2013/01/book-review-physical-resistance.html


----------



## Kate Sharpley (Sep 9, 2014)

Other options for reading the 'Against the grain' book (besides get it from a library or Red Storm)
- wait and see if any of it gets put up on libcom (prob not all of it, doubt they'd want the Trotskyist bits)
- find the websites of the authors - often they'll post either the published version or 'final draft'
- in a pinch you could contact the author directly and ask for an electronic copy. Might not agree, but they might. Tell them you're interested, don't tell them you were in such-and-such a group unless you want them to interview you!
There was a whole bit about this on Ian Bone's blog, generally not impressed with price http://ianbone.wordpress.com/2014/0...-the-far-left-in-britain-since-1956/#comments


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 9, 2014)

Just wait. I'll get it.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Sep 9, 2014)

Getting a Blairite MP's former bag carrier to do the article on the Socialist Party and SWP is a bit cheeky.

Some of the other essays look interesting, but the coverage is extremely uneven. Were you to treat it as your main source of information about the British left in the second half of the twentieth century, you would end up with a pretty seriously misleading picture.


----------



## imposs1904 (Sep 9, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Just wait. I'll get it.



Mmm, are you taking requests?


----------



## imposs1904 (Sep 9, 2014)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Getting a Blairite MP's former bag carrier to do the article on the Socialist Party and SWP is a bit cheeky.
> 
> Some of the other essays look interesting, but the coverage is extremely uneven. Were you to treat it as your main source of information about the British left in the second half of the twentieth century, you would end up with a pretty seriously misleading picture.



Didn't he (phil) do his PhD on the SP and the SWP?


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Sep 9, 2014)

imposs1904 said:


> Didn't he (phil) do his PhD on the SP and the SWP?



On why people join and stay active, I believe, rather than on their histories. Soon after he finished it, he was off into the Labour Party to, ahem, carry out Marxist work. And a few months later he washed up as sidekick to Tristram Hunt.


----------



## framed (Sep 10, 2014)

The39thStep said:


> Renton simply trots out the mass action of the United front orthodoxy. Did anyone read the SW review of Hanns book?



Only heard about it if it's the one by Renton, is there a ink to it?


----------



## framed (Sep 10, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Just wait. I'll get it.



Magic...


----------



## Joe Reilly (Sep 11, 2014)

Fozzie Bear said:


> His recent booklet about the killing of Blair Peach is good.



It might well be considered good propaganda in certain circles but the problem is you can't really believe (other than the observation that Blair Peach is dead) a word in it. Why? Because Renton's method seems to be to arrive at a conclusion _prior_ to doing his research. And on the journey inconvenient truths are either side-stepped or callously thrown under the bus, while the 'facts' are assembled in an order that will bolster the core pre-prepared proposition.

In truth he is the liberal left's answer to David Irving. But unlike the latter he dosen't rely on the one big lie ('Hitler didn't know') but peppers his work with a myriad of smaller lies and asserts without visible cause or foundation. 

Take for example his review posted in 5510. From the outset he decides to award the author hero status, applauding his "life-long commitment to anti-fascism" while predictably omitting any mention of his abrupt (and subsequently well publicized) ejection for might be termed 'gross misconduct' from AFA ranks in 1996.

Confidently he reveals that Hann was "in the mid-80's publicity officer for RA". I have no idea what being a publicity officer for RA might have entailed during that time (if such a post even existed?) but in any case it couldn't have been Hann in it as he didn't even join as a supporting member until 1987. And could Renton really be unaware of the equally well-aired accusations regarding the considerable padding of his hero's CV in No Retreat and in subsequent interviews where he was often introduced as an AFA founding member?

If he does, he pretends otherwise, going with the flow, transforming in the process what amounted to a seven year front-line career ('87-94) into 'a lifelong commitment', something even Hann, as far as I am aware, himself never claimed in his autobiography.

"In contrast to AFA's official history" (Beating the Fascists),"not all battles according to Hann's sources, were won" Renton declares with evident satisfaction.
Almost needless to say he considers it beneath him to provide even the teeniest example of BTF's aggrandizing perfidy. This is hardly accidental for by failing to do so he sneakily leaves the casual reader with the impression that such episodes are so common as to be a given.

But as readers of BTF will know it hardly shies away from the more ticklish moments - Bermondsey, Enkel, Abbey Arms, Kensington Library not to mention the less than glorious saga surrounding Hann himself. 

Even when taking into account what has gone before it still comes as something of a shock to read that BTF "stops with the Battle of Waterloo in 1992". Simply in order, Renton accuses, to allow the author to duck out of the erroneous task of charting AFA's rapid "demise" thereafter.
Again what his demise amounted to is not explored further. Some unspoken but inherent flaw seems to be the implication.

Unluckily for him, as many on here can testify, not only are there another dozen chapters covering absolutely pivotal events including Welling, the Isle of Dogs and Beackon's victory, Combat 18 and it's demise, the BNP's cessation of violence, and so forth, it could be argued that the militant strategy didn't visibly come to to fruition until 1996 with the the crushing of the assembled BNP in Manchester followed by the very public humbling of C18 at Hoborn. Not too shabby for a group Renton smugly announces suffered an ignominious collapse 4 years earlier!

All told 'Renton's missing chapters' amount to 30,000 words, or putting in another way - a full quarter of pretty hefty book.

Now it does raise the question of whether he read BTF or not? Does it matter?

Ultimately so shameless and cavalier are the methods employed historical truth and Mr Renton begin and end as strangers.

He is listed as a contributor in 'Against the Grain'. This is an academic book costing a handsome sum. Unlike a pamphlet for 'tiny trots' Manchester University will expect a certain rigor in terms of research. If he follows the same formula in it, it may prove career ending.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Sep 11, 2014)

As he is a barrister rather than an academic, it's highly unlikely that his career will be ended by an academic article, even if it turns out to be drivel.

While you are here, Joe, has there yet been any attempt to draw up a balance sheet of the IWCA years?


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Sep 12, 2014)

Joe Reilly said:


> It might well be considered good propaganda in certain circles but the problem is you can't really believe (other than the observation that Blair Peach is dead) a word in it. Why? Because Renton's method seems to be to arrive at a conclusion _prior_ to doing his research. And on the journey inconvenient truths are either side-stepped or callously thrown under the bus, while the 'facts' are assembled in an order that will bolster the core pre-prepared proposition.



Clearly he should be read very critically. I wouldn't trust him on anything where he has a transparently sectarian agenda. His review of BTF is just embarrassing.

His Blair Peach pamphlet is certainly better than the one put out by the SWP a few years ago, but perhaps that isn't saying much. If there are any problems with it, or critical reviews, then it would be great to see them.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Sep 12, 2014)

Fozzie Bear said:


> His review of BTF is just embarrassing.



Did he actually review BTF? For who?


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Sep 12, 2014)

Joe Reilly said:


> Did he actually review BTF? For who?



Apologies, Joe - I meant the references to BTF in the review of Hann's book linked upthread.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Sep 12, 2014)

Nigel Irritable said:


> As he is a barrister rather than an academic, it's highly unlikely that his career will be ended by an academic article, even if it turns out to be drivel.



Well, according to his website he has written about a dozen books. He also describes his work as an historian as an "exciting career." 

But if according to you it's not a real career -  then what is it? 

A hobby?


----------



## Joe Reilly (Sep 12, 2014)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Apologies, Joe - I meant the references to BTF in the review of Hann's book linked upthread.


Well I suppose we should all be grateful for small mercies.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Sep 13, 2014)

Joe Reilly said:


> Well, according to his website he has written about a dozen books. He also describes his work as an historian as an "exciting career."
> 
> But if according to you it's not a real career -  then what is it?
> 
> A hobby?



Yes. It's a hobby. It may once have been his job too. But it isn't now. He is in a potentially more lucrative line of work. One where academic history articles have little bearing.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Sep 15, 2014)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Yes. It's a hobby. It may once have been his job too. But it isn't now. He is in a potentially more lucrative line of work. One where academic history articles have little bearing.



If he displays the same degree of diligence and rigor in his new line of work, it won't be long I'd suggest, before we will once again be relying on his 'hobby for an income'.


----------



## cantsin (Oct 20, 2014)

WAYWARD CHERRY said:


> Don't know how true it is, but I've heard 'Clapton Ultras' are gonna be turned over big time soon bu CFC Headhunters and various other Nazis............



seems between 10-25 right wingers finally turned up early doors at the ground on Sat, and have since claimed that only police presence maintained the peace, whilst promising to return regularly and make the whole thing a financial prpoblem for the club.

Ultras have pointed out that they turned up an hr before the game to take a few selfies and left before anyone turned up.


----------



## Sue (Oct 20, 2014)

cantsin said:


> seems between 10-25 right wingers finally turned up early doors at the ground on Sat, and have since claimed that only police presence maintained the peace, whilst promising to return regularly and make the whole thing a financial prpoblem for the club.
> 
> Ultras have pointed out that they turned up an hr before the game to take a few selfies and left before anyone turned up.



A friend was at the match and he certainly didn't mention anything about this. Suppose he could've well missed it.


----------



## cantsin (Oct 20, 2014)

Sue said:


> A friend was at the match and he certainly didn't mention anything about this. Suppose he could've well missed it.



yep, sounds like they left before there was anywhere there


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 20, 2014)

Sue said:


> A friend was at the match and he certainly didn't mention anything about this. Suppose he could've well missed it.


Some relevant twitter threads:





See also:

https://twitter.com/ZoeSmithfashist


----------



## framed (Oct 21, 2014)

Text of the speech delivered by one of AFA's founding members (and IWCA strategist) to the Connolly Conference, 11th October 2014

It covers a broad sweep of working class history from the Paris Commune to the Russian Revolution, the rise of fascism and the opposition to it, the failure of the post-war left, ending with the rise of the 'new right' in the shape of Euro Nationalism and UKIP.

THE WORKING CLASS AS THE RULING CLASS







http://107cowgate.com/2014/10/21/the-working-class-as-the-ruling-class/


----------



## Patteran (Oct 23, 2014)

'Of the class, for the class, by the class', as the old stickers read. A concise & convincing narrative. Once we agree on the necessity of working class autonomy, unmitigated by intermediaries, then 'the democratisation of the economy' becomes the key phrase, right? And the most difficult to turn from abstract ideas into concrete proposals, I guess. Relaunch of the IWCA being considered?


----------



## framed (Oct 27, 2014)

*RED ACTION* facebook page


----------



## TopCat (Oct 27, 2014)

At last a RA facebook page done by RA.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 27, 2014)

There is another facebook group all about RA and to some extent the IWCA which is a bit weird as no RA members ever post on it.


----------



## framed (Oct 27, 2014)

TopCat said:


> There is another facebook group all about RA and to some extent the IWCA which is a bit weird as no RA members ever post on it.



Hence the need for something more 'official'. That 'closed group' facebook page has nothing to do with RA.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 27, 2014)

framed said:


> Hence the need for something more 'official'. That 'closed group' facebook page has nothing to do with RA.


Yeah I know. All a bit odd.
Moving forward, it's good to see RA blow their own trumpet once in a while. Too many good ideas put into action for the memories to go to waste.


----------



## Red About Town (Nov 1, 2014)

_Taken from the Red Action FB page. Short clip on the page too._

We have longer footage that was recorded live, as it happened, by one of the Red Action members who couldn't attend herself that night. Unfortunately, it's still on a VHS tape, which we will endeavour to get transferred. 

The background of the evening was that two vanloads of AFA (one from Edinburgh, the other from Glasgow) toured the constituency in Lanarkshire where the BNP had stood a candidate and expected a strong loyalist vote. We didn't find them and decided to chance our luck at the count in the Glasgow SECC. 

When we arrived we were informed that we had missed the BNP's arrival by only a few minutes and that 25 of them were already in the hall. Entry was by ticket only. We decided to approach members of the SSP/Militant as they arrived to see if they had any spare tickets and to warn them that the fash were already inside. The attitude of many of those passing us ranged from dismissive to openly hostile. One scoffed that the BNP would be 'no problem' for them. 

After about 5 minutes, and to his eternal credit, Alan McCombes emerged and told us that the BNP were already trying to intimidate people inside the count and he handed us a bundle of tickets that he had collected from his comrades. We marched into the count and the fash almost shit themselves at the sight of us... Scottish BNP leader Scott McLean, tried to appeal to one of the leading Celtic (CSC) lads with us, saying, "Why are you here John? We're not into violence any more..." To which he replied with the immortal words, "You're fucked then, cos we are!"

McLean later approached the Red Action organiser and tried to speak to him, he was met with the stonewall reply, "Fuck off, I dont speak to fascists..." When McLean tried to continue the conversation, another Celtic lad, Big Pete, stepped forward, punched him straight in the mouth saying, "Did you not hear what he said? We don't speak to fascists!"

BBC's Kirsty Wark, covering the Scottish vote, commented, "We've just been informed that a militant anti-fascist group has infltrated the count..."

When Asian Labour MP Mohamed Sarwar was elected it was the BNP's cue to heckle and wave flags, as soon as they did so AFA steamed them from behind, some of the SSP people also joined us at that stage. Eventually the cops took control and decided that the safest option was to get the fash out of the hall, As they were escorted out, AFA members attempted to get at them.

Kirsty Wark's comment at that point was also immortal, "And there's some of the real citizens of Glasgow showing the BNP what they really think of them..." 

* The mobilisation was a joint one between Glasgow AFA and Edinburgh AFA, the two Scottish AFA branches regularly co-operated on joint actions. It included members of Red Action, the Celtic Soccer Crew, hunt sabs and anarchists


----------



## Red Storm (Nov 7, 2014)

Eddie Stampton's book is out.



Spoiler











Also, I finished reading _The Enemy Within_ last night and Seamus Milne, in the final pages, mentions the solicitors who took on all the false allegations against the NUM, including MI5's Roger Windsor's complaints. The firm was Carter-Ruck. I know this firms been mentioned in this thread.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Nov 7, 2014)

Red Storm said:


> Eddie Stampton's book is out.
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler



ZIONIST FRUIT!


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 7, 2014)

Carter the unstoppable Ruck machine.


----------



## malatesta32 (Nov 7, 2014)

carter ruck are referred to as carter-fuck in private eye. they dont like em.


----------



## malatesta32 (Nov 7, 2014)

cant wait to read stampton's autobiography of a supergrass. he has been booted out of more fascist groups than eddie morrison.


----------



## framed (Nov 7, 2014)

He's already been on the Red Action facebook page giving it large about 'smashing Red Action' at Watford Gap in 1985 and being the mastermind behind Jubilee Gardens... Obviously he's on a roll of publicity for his book, which is stocked under his bed. 

The muppet is on the right of the picture...


----------



## Limerick Red (Nov 8, 2014)

He's been fuckin raging cause apparently he gave a few pre release copies to mates and it ended up on eBay by the end of day.


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 8, 2014)

framed said:


> He's already been on the Red Action facebook page giving it large about 'smashing Red Action' at Watford Gap in 1985 and being the mastermind behind Jubilee Gardens... Obviously he's on a roll of publicity for his book, which is stocked under his bed.
> 
> The muppet is on the right of the picture...



Is that discokermit on the left?


----------



## malatesta32 (Nov 8, 2014)

framed said:


> He's already been on the Red Action facebook page giving it large about 'smashing Red Action' at Watford Gap in 1985 and being the mastermind behind Jubilee Gardens... Obviously he's on a roll of publicity for his book, which is stocked under his bed.



if anyone was the, err, mastermind of jubilee gardens would it not have been crane? stampton is a career bullshitter who even the lone wolf nazis on VNN think is a twat. and watford gap? what was that?


----------



## Joe Reilly (Nov 8, 2014)

framed said:


> He's already been on the Red Action facebook page giving it large about 'smashing Red Action' at Watford Gap in 1985 and being the mastermind behind Jubilee Gardens... Obviously he's on a roll of publicity for his book, which is stocked under his bed.
> 
> The muppet is on the right of the picture...



As for Watford Gap it was an SF initiative (and I use the word loosely) to travel to support an event in Leicester. They were warned by RA members attending that Watford Gap was where the opposition would very likely be in wait. It was the obvious thing to do. But as was the way at that time, the advice was ignored. Sure enough as soon as the coaches turned into the car park NFers  swarmed around them. Some windows were smashed and so on. And with the pit stop aborted, that was about that. Off the back of this 'triumph' some in the NF were sufficiently emboldened to have a crack at the RA national meeting a week or two later. This time it was RA who lay in wait and the smashing was reversed - heads (literally) not windows this time.
I'm guessing the 'mastermind' sat that one out.


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## Joe Reilly (Nov 8, 2014)

Red Storm said:


> Eddie Stampton's book is out.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



They're not ideological - just guns for hire.


----------



## Fedayn (Nov 8, 2014)

Red About Town said:


> _Taken from the Red Action FB page. Short clip on the page too._
> 
> We have longer footage that was recorded live, as it happened, by one of the Red Action members who couldn't attend herself that night. Unfortunately, it's still on a VHS tape, which we will endeavour to get transferred.
> 
> ...



An interesting evening that one, I was with the then Scottish Socialist Alliance (which became the SSP). We went in and when going inside went past a good squad of AFA outside. Not long after a good number of our younger members and the more alert and sensible membership in the hall were asking why AFA were still outside when we had tickets to get them in. I remember a bit of a 'debate'  taking place which had almost surreal input from those opposed to getting AFA in from people who'd never thrown a tight hander in their life telling us we were exaggerating and it was ok. Completely ignoring threats in toilets from the BNP and their pals. The stupidity of those comments was based on their studied avoidance of the BNP whilst others got the tough end of the fash threats. Thankfully, as the article mentions, McCombes won the day as regards the 'debate' by simply getting tickets from others and geting those tickets to those outside.
If I remember right AFA had a big black French lad with them who git in with a ticket with a woman's name on it and the doormen were simply told well he's French. framed might remember that little story better.


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## Joe Reilly (Nov 8, 2014)

Fedayn said:


> If I remember right AFA had a big black French lad with them who git in with a ticket with a woman's name on it and the doormen were simply told well he's French.


Brilliant!


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## LiamO (Nov 8, 2014)

malatesta32 said:


> if anyone was the, err, mastermind of jubilee gardens would it not have been crane? stampton is a career bullshitter who even the lone wolf nazis on VNN think is a twat. and watford gap? what was that?



have you read Stampton's book then malatesta32?


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## framed (Nov 8, 2014)

Fedayn said:


> An interesting evening that one, I was with the then Scottish Socialist Alliance (which became the SSP). We went in and when going inside went past a good squad of AFA outside. Not long after a good number of our younger members and the more alert and sensible membership in the hall were asking why AFA were still outside when we had tickets to get them in. I remember a bit of a 'debate'  taking place which had almost surreal input from those opposed to getting AFA in from people who'd never thrown a tight hander in their life telling us we were exaggerating and it was ok. Completely ignoring threats in toilets from the BNP and their pals. The stupidity of those comments was based on their studied avoidance of the BNP whilst others got the tough end of the fash threats. Thankfully, as the article mentions, McCombes won the day as regards the 'debate' by simply getting tickets from others and geting those tickets to those outside.
> If I remember right AFA had a big black French lad with them who git in with a ticket with a woman's name on it and the doormen were simply told well he's French. framed might remember that little story better.



He's actually of Nigerian descent and has a broad Edinburgh accent, but he pretended to be French and put on an 'Allo Allo' accent because of the female name on the ticket...


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## Fedayn (Nov 8, 2014)

framed said:


> He's actually of Nigerian descent and has a broad Edinburgh accent, but he pretended to be French and put on an 'Allo Allo' accent because of the female name on the ticket...



Aaaaahh, brilliant.


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## Red Storm (Nov 9, 2014)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ay-decision-shun-poppy-embroidered-shirt.html

Daily Mail uses Cody Lachey's twitter quotes insulting McClean for refusing to wear a poppy. You might have seen Lachey from the Very British Gangster 2 and the series. The one with all the Republican stuff in it...

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/lat...Cody-Aiden-Lachey-unmasked-as-racist-deserter

Daily Star looked into him back in 2013.


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## DaveCinzano (Nov 9, 2014)

Red Storm said:


> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ay-decision-shun-poppy-embroidered-shirt.html
> 
> Daily Mail uses Cody Lachey's twitter quotes on McClean refusing to wear a poppy. You might have seen Lachey from the Very British Gangster 2 and the series. The one with all the Republican stuff in it...
> 
> ...


The ARRSE thread is all kinds of fun:

http://www.arrse.co.uk/community/threads/craig-langley-cody-aiden-lachey.199991/


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## malatesta32 (Nov 9, 2014)

LiamO said:


> have you read Stampton's book then malatesta32?



 just waiting for a copy. other folk who have read it say its as bad as joey owens. which is pretty, pretty bad.


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## malatesta32 (Nov 9, 2014)

or eddie morrison's memoirs of a street soldier which is beyond the bullshit zone. it's a surprise he even remembers anything as he was so drunk most of of the time. he bottled it for several years after literally being bottled in leeds. stampton is well known as a grass, an opportunist and for lasting only a few months in any group before being kicked out.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 9, 2014)

framed said:


> He's actually of Nigerian descent and has a broad Edinburgh accent, but he pretended to be French and put on an 'Allo Allo' accent because of the female name on the ticket...


surprised he didn't try for an alloa accent


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## malatesta32 (Nov 9, 2014)

'




stampton's 'racial colleagues who argue 'no more brother wars dont seem too pleased.


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## Spanky Longhorn (Nov 9, 2014)

It's always a surprise to see the lack of solidarity among the warriors of the right


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## malatesta32 (Nov 9, 2014)

'no more brother wars my arse.' there are more calls for unity on the far right than actual members. they usually put it down to micro-fuhrer syndrome. this is eddie stampton who beat his girlfriend to a coma.


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## malatesta32 (Nov 9, 2014)

and this the other eddie morrison with jailed pedophile martyn gilleard who apparently converted to islam to prevent him being beaten up. again.


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## LiamO (Nov 9, 2014)

malatesta32 said:


> View attachment 63557  stampton's 'racial colleagues who argue 'no more brother wars dont seem too pleased.



Eddie Stampton made no secret of the fact that he was doing this book, so these whining claims of clandestine activity seem a little more deluded than usual. 

He sent me an excerpt a few months back. It wasn't a great read.


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## malatesta32 (Nov 9, 2014)

i think stampton is far from clandestine and has been very visible on some of the demos i've been on. oh, hang on, that thing up there slagging it off is from VNN uk fascist site. not me. i cant do graphics as well as that.


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## LiamO (Nov 9, 2014)

malatesta32 said:


> i think stampton is far from clandestine and has been very visible on some of the demos i've been on. oh, hang on, that thing up there slagging it off is from VNN uk fascist site. not me. i cant do graphics as well as that.



I didn't think it was from you mate  I was referring to the 'outraged' fascist above


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## LiamO (Nov 9, 2014)

Here's another excerpt... I was gonna post it months ago but Mr Stampton informed me he had nicked my last posts wholesale for his own book (not the RAC one that is out now) so I left it a while. At least there might be one well-written story with some resemblance to the actualité in his book.

*The Yellow Minibus.*
I actually started my political career as a bit of a Poster boy for the National front. That was not my intention but that’s how it turned out.

I arrived at Foleshill Park in Coventry. The Bloody Sunday March (Commemorating the 14 Irish civilians shot dead by British paratroopers in January 1972) had been due to take place in Coventry but was banned at the last minute. In their infinite wisdom the organisers had decided to move it to Birmingham. Now these days, 40 years on and after the enquiry and the British Government’s apology, most people could easily draw a distinction between a Bloody Sunday march and an ‘IRA’ one. That was not the case back then (just four years after the Pub Bombings) and the local press had stirred things up no end so it was likely to be lively to say the least.

There was a 52-seater coach and a shiny, yellow minibus with the words ‘Warwick University Student’s Union’ emblazoned down either side. I opted for the minibus as that’s where my mates Harry Hempo and Cusseedy were and also, although most people on it were students, the minibus lads were much more working-class/hairy arsed than the lefties on the coach. Both the coach and the bus had a police motorcyclist behind them as we pulled out and headed for Brum. We were in high spirits and the craic and banter was flowing as we looked forward to the day. We were about to get much more excitement than we had bargained for.

As we approached Stonebridge Island on the A45 we saw two things that should have alerted us, but sadly didn’t. The first was seeing the coach speeding back the opposite way with their motorcyclist in tow. The second was that in a layby on our left was a Salford van Hire minibus packed with men who looked nothing like students. As we passed, they pulled out a few cars back. It became clear that they were NF. Nobody showed any fear and I was heartened that, unlike previous encounters, people seemed up for it.
There was a bit of gesturing between the two mini busses, but nothing that gave an insight into what was about to come. Our police escort whizzed off but we did not think too much about why. At first we thought the gestures from the NF were inviting us to ‘come and have a go if you think you’re hard enough’. Well we did think we were hard enough as it happened and were indeed about to ‘have a go’.

But as the lads at the back opened the doors, they suddenly hesitated. Something wasn’t quite right. Looking around they realised that all the Fascist shouts of ‘come on’ were not directed at us at all  but were meant for the 100 or so of their NF mates who had been stopped at the roundabout by the police and were milling about in a state of high excitement having just missed a confrontation with our coach. Now they were all off their buses and streaming down to where we were stuck in the (completely Police-induced and controlled) traffic tailback.

The lads pulled back in and shut the doors shouting warnings. We looked up and could see droves of them running through the traffic and along the side of the road, some literally falling over themselves in their enthusiasm. “Drive! Drive!” people shouted. But the driver had nowhere to go. We were on the inside lane and boxed in by cars front, back and side. I was absolutely shitting myself and like everybody else was panicking as our fate became clear. Within seconds the minibus was surrounded and everybody ducked down, curled up and did their best to protect themselves. I was too slow getting down and ended up the only one standing - which as it turned out wasn’t a bad way to be as the roof gave me a fair bit of protection.

Then the strangest thing happened. Just as I thought my heart or my head would explode, a strange calm came over me. It was almost as if I was watching this on TV rather than being in it. I suddenly felt eerily calm. I know that feeling well now, almost like an old friend, but it was weird at the time. Basically my limbic brain had kicked in and having identified that flight or freeze was not an option, it only left fight.


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## LiamO (Nov 9, 2014)

*The Yellow Minibus* Part 2

Loads of them had us surrounded and all kinds of missiles (cider bottles, bits of paving slabs etc.) bounced off the windows before they started to break through. Very soon there simply were no windows and the missiles were coming through the holes and hitting people. We were showered with broken glass and pandemonium reigned as our attackers worked themselves into a frenzy. Eager fascist hands then began to grab people and try to pull them through the broken windows. I pulled a couple of people back in. They had one fellas head, arms and shoulders out but, fortunately for him, they were all so keen to batter him that the ‘pullers’ stopped pulling so they could hit him and I was just able to drag him back in.

As he slid back in I saw there was a huge amber-handled screwdriver stuck in his donkey jacket where someone had tried to stab him. I had no idea if he had actually been stabbed but I grabbed the screwdriver, held it by the shaft and began to whack the grabbing hands as hard as I could with the heavy handle. Obviously I have no idea what kind of a mad lunatic I looked like to them but the fear and pain in the eyes of the owners of the hands I walloped was encouraging.

The bus was being rocked fiercely from side to side, with fascists all round both sides and ends and we were rocking with it. It was hard to keep your feet and I would’ve fallen over had there been any space to fall into. And all the time this disassociated calm. I saw one of them hold the petrol cap aloft triumphantly and could hear them shouting ‘Burn the bastards!’ At the time I had no idea that the bus was diesel-fuelled and that actually diesel does not ignite readily but it didn’t seem to matter anyway. It was like I had accepted we were going to die.

The driver was unconscious and the passenger door had been ripped open. An RCP fella was wrapped around fat Jimmy the Scouser who was sat in the middle. He was hanging on for dear life as a fascist half got in, planted one foot on the side of the seat, the other on the door jamb and pulled with all such force that when he eventually lost his grip he flew backwards into the crowd.

A big, easy-going fella from Derry was holding the door handles down and together as the Fash tried to pull them open. He was shipping lots of blows as they tried to batter his grip loose but he stuck resolutely to the task. I had always considered him a bit of a big softie cos he was so softly and politely spoken, but he was a hero that day. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that people would have been maimed or killed had he given up.

Next thing a smoke canister was thrown in. It was the kind that Sky-divers used. Whilst they may have simply made for impressive viewing at two-thousand feet, they were devastating in an enclosed space. Everybody was choking and gasping for breath as the thick red/orange smoke tore at our throats and burned our eyes. At that point I actually considered for a few seconds giving up, lying down and accepting my fate - then the canister was at my feet and I just grabbed it and tossed it back out the window. One of the Fash screamed as it bounced off his face. I don’t know what he thought it was but his panic meant it took them a few seconds to toss it back in. Funny enough it was this lowest point that galvanised others into action. As the macabre game of pass-the-parcel with the smoke canister continued more people sat or stood up and joined the battle. Thank God CS gas - which would become fairly common just a few years later - was not yet available.

Somebody shook the driver back to consciousness and he gunned the engine. He was literally driving blind for a few seconds as the Fash dived out of the way. One side of the windscreen had been kicked in and was flapping about while the driver’s side was full of those white impact marks you get on glass.

One fascist had climbed up the side of the bus and was kicking in through the window with his non-standing leg. Two of us had a hold of his leg as the bus took off and for a few beautiful seconds he was ours - he screamed and struggled as he bounced off the side of the bus. Whether it was his struggling or his mates managed to grab him I don’t know, but he slipped from our grasp. Probably best that he did to be honest, but I always looked on him as the one that got away. As we ploughed through diving NF-ers the road ahead cleared. We found out later that there had been a couple standing and jumping on the roof as well. Fortunately for them there were plenty of their comrades’ arms to fall into.

In the minute or so we were under attack the traffic in front had moved on a bit and naturally no-one behind moved to overtake our bus so we had a clear run of maybe 70 yards to the roundabout. There was a queue of irate members of the public berating the police for standing there doing nothing. The cops were taking plenty of no notice. There was a line of the slimy bastards, mostly with their hands actually tucked behind their backs, right across the road. Our driver just managed to squeeze through a gap on the outside, through the traffic onto the roundabout. As the fascists’ cheers and jeers rang out he did a 180 degree turn across the muddy grass and I thought for one horrible moment that he was gonna turn the bus over. Then one more moment of terror as the bus threatened to get stuck in the churning mud and the wheels spun for what seemed like forever but was probably a couple of seconds. Fortunately he recovered and we headed at high speed back towards Coventry. We received a final few missiles as we drove past our attackers on the other side of the dual carraigeway.

A quick check revealed that most injuries, even those with lots of blood, were superficial. Incredibly nobody was seriously hurt. There were not even any broken bones! We all looked like trolls of course. Tear-streaked, orange faces, red nostrils, with massive wide white eyes. Even the ones with short hair seemed to have it all standing up like mad Scientists after a laboratory explosion.


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## LiamO (Nov 9, 2014)

*The Yellow Minibus* (Part3) 

The relief was incredible. Some sat silently counting their blessings (and maybe their teeth) others, myself included were laughing like maniacs and recounting the tale.

A beautiful moment of surreal comedy rounded off the day. As we pulled into Cov & Warwick hospital the Salvation Army Brass Band was playing outside. As the bus rolled by and as each of them clocked our battered bus - with every single panel bashed in, every window except miraculously the driver’s one missing, full of bloodied, wild-eyed, orange faced madmen they stopped playing. As the last of them stopped, slack-jawed at what they were seeing their Conductor turned to see what the hell was going on, I stuck my head out and shouted “Hally-fuckin-luia”. Cue lots more maniacal laughter from most of us and dirty looks from others.

God only knows what the usual Sunday afternoon Casualty audience, mostly parents with kids with cut knees, broken wrists or pots stuck on their heads thought when fifteen madmen piled in, all with the ridiculous orange faces and red noses and some of us covered in claret.

The adrenal overload was almost overwhelming to be honest. Some sat shell-shocked; some were shaking with the post-fight adrenaline, whilst others blabbered on almost unintelligibly. I remember Mike the RCP-er who was in the front passenger seat simply refused point blank to believe how close he came to being dragged out. When I described to him what I had seen he protested ‘They couldn’t have grabbed me, I had the door locked’. Everybody laughed and pointed out that his door had no glass in it and it wasn’t exactly difficult to pop the snib and open the door, but I was amazed at his post-traumatic rationalisation. He just had a lost 30 seconds and that was it. He’d been so traumatised that he could not even consider admitting to himself that he was so close to death. He just blanked it out. I later discovered this is quite a common occurrence in a scary situation. People talk of the fight or flight response but by far the most frequent reaction to extreme fear is Freeze. That is what traditionally meant that lefty students stood frozen with fear whilst working-class street fighters from the NF or later the BNP picked them off. That would change soon and the Far Right would be the ones on the back foot, but for now the traffic seemed totally one-way.

Mike got quite aggressive too and accused me of being ‘full of shit’. Even as others verified my story he grasped for a straw. ‘And another thing, where’s this mystical screwdriver then? Come on where is it?’ The truth was I hadn’t a notion. I simply could not remember, not once the smoke canister came in. It certainly hadn’t ended up on the floor of the minibus with all the other detritus - the broken paving slabs, cider bottles, and industrial bolts. The kid with the donkey jacket had no doubts though. He had a long weal down his side where it had grazed him but thankfully had been deflected away from piercing his flesh - and a stab sized hole in his jacket to show for it. Mike shut up once yer man wiggled his finger through the hole in his coat and asked him what he thought might have caused it apart from the screwdriver. In fairness to him, I think he was the one who had booked out the minibus under some spurious reason  and he was gonna have to return what was left of it - and explain the state of it. So while the nightmare was over for us, his was just beginning!

I had some choice words for the SWP when next one of them started with the ‘we have to engage with the fascists - talk to them’ routine. Of course we had to constantly and consistently engage them in debate and discussion, that’s the only way you can challenge and ultimately change people’s views - but we could only do that after we had established our right to talk in the first place. You could not speak from a position of pleading and weakness.

Looking back on that day, there is absolutely no way that the police did not know exactly who we were, where we were and that we were driving into an ambush. In fact we were clearly led and directed, by them, straight into the ambush.

I still can’t believe there were no fatalities or even serious injuries. If only the fash were a bit more organised, a bit more clinical, a little less stupid. Had they rocked the bus from one side instead of two they would have surely turned it over and then we were fucked. If one of them had taken charge and stopped too many cooks from spoiling the broth. If the punters in front had abandoned their vehicles and fled on foot, leaving us boxed in. If our friend from Derry had been, even momentarily, mentally weaker the back doors would have been torn open and we would have been dragged to our fate and torn limb from limb. Over the next few years I would see plenty of kickings handed out but I never once witnessed an occasion where a mob had a free hand like that, where they were given so much time, while such a large force of Police stood watching. That’s why I know I am not exaggerating when I say someone would have died.

Suffice to say that I was a changed boy after that. I knew who the enemy was. I knew what they were capable of. And I knew I wanted to be part of the fightback. So did Harry and Cusseedy. The problem was where the fuck were we gonna find like-minded people? Three people on that bus, myself, Harry and Cusseedy would later join Red Action.

I think it is fair to say that none of us would have been inclined to politically motivated violence before that, particularly Harry who was such a beautiful, gentle soul. Indeed none of us were violent at heart or got into fights in pubs by and large. But when life presents you with overwhelming, irrefutable evidence that we would have earn the right to protest, earn the right to speak our truth, then it would be complete dishonesty to ignore what was staring you in the face - or indeed for many unfortunates on the left, actually stamping on their face.

And the Poster Boy thing? Well for years afterwards Fascist publications carried photos of their gallant chaps swarming over our little yellow minibus. Or so I am told, I only saw one personally. The caption said something like ‘It’s not all hard work in the National Front. Here are some eager young National Fronters engaging IRA supporters in political debate’. They used it, and the ‘Warwick University Students Union’ logo emblazoned down the side, to recruit impressionable young working class lads with promises of easy pickings beating up ‘lefty students’. Must have made quite an inviting picture.


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## discokermit (Nov 9, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> Is that discokermit on the left?


grrrrr. you.


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## Red Storm (Nov 10, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> The ARRSE thread is all kinds of fun:
> 
> http://www.arrse.co.uk/community/threads/craig-langley-cody-aiden-lachey.199991/



He's just been on How Rich Are You on Channel 4 apparently.


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## Sean (Nov 14, 2014)

Not read this yet, but it looks interesting...

http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/afa-interview-nf-james-poulter-384


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## Joe Reilly (Nov 14, 2014)

...the concluding sentence would likely have been more nuanced or at least less abrupt had the the tape not run out.


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## weseethroughyou (Nov 15, 2014)

Fedayn said:


> An interesting evening that one, I was with the then Scottish Socialist Alliance (which became the SSP). We went in and when going inside went past a good squad of AFA outside. Not long after a good number of our younger members and the more alert and sensible membership in the hall were asking why AFA were still outside when we had tickets to get them in. I remember a bit of a 'debate'  taking place which had almost surreal input from those opposed to getting AFA in from people who'd never thrown a tight hander in their life telling us we were exaggerating and it was ok. Completely ignoring threats in toilets from the BNP and their pals. The stupidity of those comments was based on their studied avoidance of the BNP whilst others got the tough end of the fash threats. Thankfully, as the article mentions, McCombes won the day as regards the 'debate' by simply getting tickets from others and geting those tickets to those outside.
> If I remember right AFA had a big black French lad with them who git in with a ticket with a woman's name on it and the doormen were simply told well he's French. framed might remember that little story better.


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## weseethroughyou (Nov 15, 2014)

maidan nazis intend to march to the cenotaph tommorow to commenerate the waffen ss and other nazi heroes


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## Mr.Bishie (Nov 15, 2014)

weseethroughyou said:


> maidan nazis intend to march to the cenotaph tommorow to commenerate the waffen ss and other nazi heroes



Will you be joining them? or opposing them?


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## weseethroughyou (Nov 15, 2014)

they must be stopped


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## stethoscope (Nov 15, 2014)

weseethroughyou said:


> they must be stopped



I wish you would.


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## weseethroughyou (Nov 15, 2014)

this is unprecedented people celebrating nazism next to thr cenotaph


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## weseethroughyou (Nov 15, 2014)

can the mainstream press manage to avoid this one i wonder people will go mad


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## Pickman's model (Nov 15, 2014)

weseethroughyou said:


> this is unprecedented people celebrating nazism next to thr cenotaph


not really.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 15, 2014)

weseethroughyou said:


> can the mainstream press manage to avoid this one i wonder people will go mad


you were amusing to start off with but now you're getting boring.


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## Joe Reilly (Nov 21, 2014)

To paraphrase Julie Waterson: "...only the scum from estates vote UKIP".


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## Nigel (Nov 21, 2014)

Joe Reilly said:


> To paraphrase Julie Waterson: "...only the scum from estates vote UKIP".


Out of curiosity, when and where did she come out with this ?


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## cantsin (Nov 21, 2014)

Nigel said:


> Out of curiosity, when and where did she come out with this ?



"paraphrase" . BNP . Late 90's ish ( ? )


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## Pickman's model (Nov 21, 2014)

cantsin said:


> "paraphrase" . BNP . Late 90's ish ( ? )


2003 socialist alliance conference when she said dismissed the bnp vote as the “white lumpen scum living on the housing estates”. (weekly worker, 15/5/2003)


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## belboid (Nov 22, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> 2003 socialist alliance conference when she said dismissed the bnp vote as the “white lumpen scum living on the housing estates”. (weekly worker, 15/5/2003)


she didn't quite, actually.  But why would the Weekly Wanker ever be right?

What she said was [paraphrase] the working-class don't vote BNP, well only [definite quote] - the scum off the estates.

The WW took it from a report on these boards, and then re-wrote it.

[/pedant]


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## Louis MacNeice (Nov 22, 2014)

belboid said:


> she didn't quite, actually.  But why would the Weekly Wanker ever be right?
> 
> What she said was [paraphrase] the working-class don't vote BNP, well only [definite quote] - the scum off the estates.
> 
> ...



Do you think she meant black scum off the estates; she meant white lumpen underclass didn't she?

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


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## belboid (Nov 22, 2014)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Do you think she meant black scum off the estates; she meant white lumpen underclass didn't she?
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice


she meant the people on estates who are 'scum' - the 'anti-social', white, folk


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## Louis MacNeice (Nov 22, 2014)

belboid said:


> she meant the people on estates who are 'scum' - the 'anti-social', white, folk



Which sounds pretty much what the WW wrote; just because it's the WW it doesn't mean they can never be right (once in a blue moon it's going to happen).

Oh and apologies for having a go at your pedantry; I'm aware of the pot and kettle quality of what I'm doing.

All the best - Louis MacNeice


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## belboid (Nov 22, 2014)

It is kinda  what she meant, but it isn't what she actually said. What she said could have been taken as 'the people on estates, all of whom are scum' - tho JW was as likely to say 'whom' as she was to say 'lumpen'


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## Louis MacNeice (Nov 22, 2014)

belboid said:


> It is kinda  what she meant, but it isn't what she actually said. What she said could have been taken as 'the people on estates, all of whom are scum' - tho JW was as likely to say 'whom' as she was to say 'lumpen'



I certainly don't think she was saying all people living on council and ex-council estates were scum, just those who voted BNP; the point is that she was wrong to say that because it dismissed BNP voters (interestingly in much the same way as some are dismissing UKIP voters now).

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 22, 2014)

belboid said:


> she didn't quite, actually.  But why would the Weekly Wanker ever be right?
> 
> What she said was [paraphrase] the working-class don't vote BNP, well only [definite quote] - the scum off the estates.
> 
> ...


you're too modest. http://paulstott.typepad.com/i_intend_to_escape_and_co/2012/11/the-red-action-archive.html


----------



## Joe Reilly (Nov 22, 2014)

Louis MacNeice said:


> I certainly don't think she was saying all people living on council and ex-council estates were scum, just those who voted BNP; the point is that she was wrong to say that because it dismissed BNP voters (interestingly in much the same way as some are dismissing UKIP voters now).
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice



Absolutely spot on. And of course as anyone who has done any canvassing would happily tell her, lumpen scum, as a rule, don't vote. 
So even when her outburst is distilled to the essence she is wrong on that as well.


----------



## belboid (Nov 22, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> you're too modest. http://paulstott.typepad.com/i_intend_to_escape_and_co/2012/11/the-red-action-archive.html


I have much to be modest about


----------



## Red About Town (Nov 24, 2014)

Wasn't sure where to put this. From people who were involved in the IWCA. Interesting reading.

https://southessexheckler.wordpress.com/about-the-heckler/


----------



## The39thStep (Nov 24, 2014)

Red About Town said:


> Wasn't sure where to put this. From people who were involved in the IWCA. Interesting reading.
> 
> https://southessexheckler.wordpress.com/about-the-heckler/


Some interesting musing on working class self help there


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Nov 25, 2014)

I love the fact the latest edition is sponsored by an Army Surplus store


----------



## DaveCinzano (Nov 28, 2014)

Charlie Sargent sent back to prison?

http://www.hopenothate.org.uk/blog/nick/go-directly-to-jail-do-not-pass-go-4142


----------



## The39thStep (Nov 28, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> Charlie Sargent sent back to prison?
> 
> http://www.hopenothate.org.uk/blog/nick/go-directly-to-jail-do-not-pass-go-4142


Not aged well has he?


----------



## LiamO (Nov 28, 2014)

The39thStep said:


> Not aged well has he?



Has Sargent any Irish in him? He looks like a B Hurler from Offaly in that photo.


----------



## framed (Nov 30, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> Charlie Sargent sent back to prison?
> 
> http://www.hopenothate.org.uk/blog/nick/go-directly-to-jail-do-not-pass-go-4142



That report is a little bit curious though... If Sargent is a grass and an SB asset, as has been continually alleged, how come he's accepted back into the fold of this lot and what's the Searchlight 'bogeyman' Will Browning up to now? Plenty of mention of him by Lowles in the HnH blog, but nothing with regard to what he's up to politically, if anything... I tend not to keep that many tabs on these sad cases these days, so please forgive me if I've missed any news about Browning's activities.

Thank the Lord for Hope Not Hate 'researchers' - must be hard work trawling through the facebook pages of fash who do nothing to hide themselves from plain view.

Photo looks weird, like his head's been cut and pasted on...


----------



## FNG (Nov 30, 2014)

right said fred have let themselves go


----------



## malatesta32 (Nov 30, 2014)

beating the fash? they're doing it themselves: 
*'Where do I start? National Front (De-registered), British Freedom Party (de-registered), Freedom Democrats (De-registered), UK First Party (De-registered), British People's Party (Deregistered), Britain First (No accounts and constant police investigations), BDP (minute membership), Eng Dems (nationalists?... Also serious debt), Liberty GB (Freedom Democrats copy and going same way), EDL (disappeared).'*


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 30, 2014)

Have the EDL 'disappeared'? Wasn't someone saying they had a rally somewhere recently pretty much unopposed?


----------



## Patteran (Nov 30, 2014)

framed said:


> That report is a little bit curious though... If Sargent is a grass and an SB asset, as has been continually alleged, how come he's accepted back into the fold of this lot and what's the Searchlight 'bogeyman' Will Browning up to now? Plenty of mention of him by Lowles in the HnH blog, but nothing with regard to what he's up to politically, if anything... I tend not to keep that many tabs on these sad cases these days, so please forgive me if I've missed any news about Browning's activities.
> 
> Thank the Lord for Hope Not Hate 'researchers' - must be hard work trawling through the facebook pages of fash who do nothing to hide themselves from plain view.
> 
> Photo looks weird, like his head's been cut and pasted on...



Prison, coke & hate take a terrible toll on a man's face. He seemed capable of viciousness up close (even when armed with a sellotape dispenser). What was the event where he was spotted on the pavement from a bus? South London somewhere, near Woolwich, maybe? There was a scatter & he was chased into a kebab shop - the cops arrived before a kebab-knife sword-fight started.


----------



## malatesta32 (Nov 30, 2014)

apparently it came out at his murder trial that he was a special branch tout. 
i dont think the EDL have disappeared but they are a spent force - they get about 400 at their demos - but as someone on here said 'they have no endgame.' what have they achieved? they read something in the paper and put it on facebook then fume. politically they havent a clue now.


----------



## malatesta32 (Nov 30, 2014)

re: sargeant, didnt he take refuge in a cop car at the bow confrontation and he bottled it at a gig in the midlands when confronted by a fash opponent.


----------



## Patteran (Nov 30, 2014)

malatesta32 said:


> re: sargeant, didnt he take refuge in a cop car at the bow confrontation and he bottled it at a gig in the midlands when confronted by a fash opponent.



According to BTF, it was Phil Edwards, another knifeman, who dived into a cop car outside The Little Driver.

I understand some satisfaction taken from far-right groups collapsing, but in itself it's no victory for progressives or militants. The hundreds of thousands who voted for the BNP, the thousands who turned out for the EDL, they're still here, still disaffected, still more convinced by the ideas of the right than the ideas of the left. I don't think far-right administrative incompetence counts as 'beating the fash'.


----------



## framed (Nov 30, 2014)

I think what Mal might've been getting at are those who still want to chase after shadows... there was a similar attitude towards chasing the rolling bandwagon of pathetic 50-strong NF demos before the EDL appeared on the scene.

As Mr Joe comments in the Vice interview in relation to the dwindling numbers of NF at Remembrance Day due to the attentions of AFA...

*VICE:* _By the end of the 80s the numbers going on the NF Remembrance Sunday parade had dropped to about a tenth of their peak – around 200 marchers. You then stopped opposing them. Why was that?_

*AFA:* There was a strategic decision then to say,* "Well, this will be the hardcore [members] – you won't be able to reduce them any more." *So AFA redeployed to East London and got stuck into the BNP instead, and basically left the NF to it, saying its function as we saw it – an introduction to fascism – no longer served its purpose. We could deploy, but if the police had 500 coppers, there were two uniformed police officers for every fascist, and you could only do incremental damage after that. There was always going to be a hardcore that would continue, but the fellow travellers – the kind of people who would be the next generation – had been removed, so we moved on. 

http://www.vice.com/.../afa-interview-nf-james-poulter-384


----------



## Fedayn (Nov 30, 2014)

framed said:


> That report is a little bit curious though... If Sargent is a grass and an SB asset, as has been continually alleged, how come he's accepted back into the fold of this lot and what's the Searchlight 'bogeyman' Will Browning up to now? Plenty of mention of him by Lowles in the HnH blog, but nothing with regard to what he's up to politically, if anything... I tend not to keep that many tabs on these sad cases these days, so please forgive me if I've missed any news about Browning's activities.
> 
> Thank the Lord for Hope Not Hate 'researchers' - must be hard work trawling through the facebook pages of fash who do nothing to hide themselves from plain view.
> 
> Photo looks weird, like his head's been cut and pasted on...



C18 leader reborn as Steve Coogans character in Doctor Terrible's house of Horrible?


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Dec 1, 2014)

Patteran said:


> According to BTF, it was Phil Edwards, another knifeman, who dived into a cop car outside The Little Driver.
> 
> I understand some satisfaction taken from far-right groups collapsing, but in itself it's no victory for progressives or militants. The hundreds of thousands who voted for the BNP, the thousands who turned out for the EDL, they're still here, still disaffected, still more convinced by the ideas of the right than the ideas of the left. I don't think far-right administrative incompetence counts as 'beating the fash'.



I think AFA did the job they set out to do, and they did it pretty effectively. The left as a whole (including so far the IWCA, despite making the best effort) failed to provide the alternative people obviously wanted to mainstream politics.


----------



## malatesta32 (Dec 1, 2014)

ah thanks for the clarification. he also referred to himself as a 'knife merchant.' the resort of the coward who cant fight. 
i dont think the BNP have any support at the hustings and the votes will go to ukip obviously. 
the largest militant mobilisations ive been on of late have been MFE, andthea few others round the uk against the EDL demos have been opposed by smaller and smaller groups of antifascists. i certainly dont think we have beaten the fash but there is a wee bit of schadenfreude to see them implode (see NF recent travails). you're right, it convincing  their sympathisers that are the problem.


----------



## malatesta32 (Dec 1, 2014)

as for alledged grasses being allowed back into the far right - stampton, williamson, tony white, eddie morrison, kevin-wat-nomoney, etc. quantity not quality!


----------



## Joe Reilly (Dec 1, 2014)

Patteran said:


> Prison, coke & hate take a terrible toll on a man's face. He seemed capable of viciousness up close (even when armed with a sellotape dispenser). What was the event where he was spotted on the pavement from a bus? South London somewhere, near Woolwich, maybe? There was a scatter & he was chased into a kebab shop - the cops arrived before a kebab-knife sword-fight started.



In the early 80's RA supporters in Finchley would take time out to slap Charlie about whenever their paths crossed. Had a punch like a hamster apparently.
However when armed with a bit of steel he was indeed transformed into a warrior. The chase along the Old Kent Road with Charlie in full scuttle was entirely accidental. He looked doomed until he found sanctuary behind a kebab counter and then more pertinently behind a glistening kebab skewer. Even Mr 'Olearly' was hugely impressed by instant change in the body language, which says it all. Thus a standoff ensued.

As for the other incident it occurred when AFA slapped a flash picket on a shop (Badge Sales) in the west end selling far-right material and coincided with Charlie and a companion also visiting to pick up 80 c18 badges. When he saw who was responsible for the commotion at the door a near total loss of composure was imminent before alighting on a Stanley knife behind the counter. Another Kryptonite in reverse moment ensued. Actually it was me (if it is the same incident?) who picked up the extremely heavy (potentially lethal at close quarters too) sellotape dispenser in response. In truth it was not 'Stanley' but the happenstance of our spotting a discreet CCTV camera covering the area in question that saved him that time.  Plod to the rescue again.


----------



## Patteran (Dec 1, 2014)

Joe Reilly said:


> In the early 80's RA supporters in Finchley would take time out to slap Charlie about whenever their paths crossed. Had punch like a hamster apparently.
> However when armed with a bit of steel he was indeed transformed into a warrior. The chase along the Old Kent Road with Charlie in full scuttle was entirely accidental. He looked doomed until he found sanctuary behind a kebab counter and then more pertinently behind a glistening kebab skewer. Even Mr 'Olearly' was hugely impressed by instant change in the body language, which says it all. Thus a standoff ensued.
> 
> As for the other incident it occurred when AFA slapped a flash picket on a shop (Badge Sales) in the west end selling far-right material and coincided with Charlie and a companion also visiting to pick up 80 c18 badges. When he saw who was responsible for the commotion at the door a near total loss of composure was imminent before alighting on a Stanley knife behind the counter. Another Kryptonite in reverse moment ensued. Actually it was me (if it is the same incident?) who picked up the extremely heavy (potentially lethal at close quarters too) sellotape dispenser in response. In truth it was not 'Stanley' but the happenstance of our spotting a discreet CCTV camera covering the area in question that saved him that time.  Plod to the rescue again.



I knew someone picked up a sellotape dispenser in Badge Sales - it's not often you two are mixed up, & I can only apologise. I still can't remember what event preceded the kebab shop stand-off. Was it the Rohit Duggal commemoration? I (vaguely) remember the 'Off the bus!' shout, a scatter & a chase. A second-row jostler among hard men & lost in my usual 'i am proper shit at fighting' panic, I missed everybody else diving into the kebab shop after Charlie, & kept running with G from Camden. At pretty much the same moment, us & the fash realised that two not especially impressive looking reds were somehow chasing half a dozen C18 across a road. Everybody stopped, took a breath, & turned around. Heavy traffic & a busy street prevented a complete reverse, and we slunk back to the others. I remember Olearys' reaction - which is why I mentioned it in the first place. CS was/is a fuckin rotter, but it would be unhistoric to characterise him as a shithouse.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Dec 1, 2014)

Patteran said:


> I knew someone picked up a sellotape dispenser in Badge Sales - it's not often you two are mixed up, & I can only apologise. I still can't remember what event preceded the kebab shop stand-off. Was it the Rohit Duggal commemoration? I (vaguely) remember the 'Off the bus!' shout, a scatter & a chase. A second-row jostler among hard men & lost in my usual 'i am proper shit at fighting' panic, I missed everybody else diving into the kebab shop after Charlie, & kept running with G from Camden. At pretty much the same moment, us & the fash realised that two not especially impressive looking reds were somehow chasing half a dozen C18 across a road. Everybody stopped, took a breath, & turned around. Heavy traffic & a busy street prevented a complete reverse, and we slunk back to the others. I remember Olearys' reaction - which is why I mentioned it in the first place. CS was/is a fuckin rotter, but it would be unhistoric to characterise him as a shithouse.



Yes, it was after the Rohit Duggal commemoration where ironically C18 had put on a thoroughly dominating, if happily, not decisive display. When I got the full low down from JW afterwards I remember being delighted I had missed it!

As described to me it was one of those horrible situations where you have a gnawing sense of disaster looming, feel a responsibility to avert it, but are not formally in charge, or are out-gunned, so have to spend time advising, reassuring or arguing when you ought to be _acting_. Predictably, elements hostile to the whole militant ethos did the exact opposite to the offered advice and some suffered what are described these days as 'life-changing' injuries as a result.


----------



## Citizen66 (Dec 1, 2014)

Will there ever be a kindle version?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Dec 1, 2014)

Patteran said:


> CS was/is a fuckin rotter, but it would be unhistoric to characterise him as a shithouse.



That'll end up on the cover of his book


----------



## Patteran (Dec 1, 2014)

Joe Reilly said:


> Yes, it was after the Rohit Duggal commemoration where ironically C18 had put on a thoroughly dominating, if happily, not decisive display. When I got the full low down from JW afterwards I remember being delighted I had missed it!



Sketchiest day out I experienced, & horrifying for Duggal's family as the cops marched us not once, but twice, through a venomous crowd of organised fascists & passing racists, at one point delaying us in the middle of a crossroads, exposed to four sides of hostility. When we arrived at the park there was maybe a dozen AFA stewards (including maybe 7 or 8 RA) facing a couple of hundred fascists. Cops arrived on horseback to separate the lines, which cheered up some of the lefties, but then they turned their horses _towards_ us - the protectors now looking like cavalry reinforcements for the fascist infantry behind. It was vaguely medieval, & it looked like it was coming on top. But the fascists didn't take the opportunity. Sketchy for us, horrifying for the family of a 15 year old boy killed going to the chip shop, who had to face racist neighbours & fascist blow-ins _celebrating_ their loss.


----------



## Patteran (Dec 2, 2014)

Joe Reilly said:


> a gnawing sense of disaster looming, feel a responsibility to avert it, but are not formally not in charge or are out-gunned, so have to spend time advising, reassuring or arguing when you ought to be _acting_.



(The modern human condition & its internal dialogue, summed up by Joe Reilly)


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## malatesta32 (Dec 2, 2014)

'gave him a right sellotaping' could be a new euphemism.


----------



## malatesta32 (Dec 2, 2014)

surely some stories for BTF extended remix?


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## malatesta32 (Dec 2, 2014)

heavy manners in spain: 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/30174067


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## Sweet FA (Dec 2, 2014)

malatesta32 said:


> heavy manners in spain:
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/30174067


I'm probably missing something. Is there a political element to that?


----------



## malatesta32 (Dec 2, 2014)

Sweet FA said:


> I'm probably missing something. Is there a political element to that?


yes, he was  apparently murdered by fascists from 'rival fans from radical groups' (now i cant find the original article).


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## Sweet FA (Dec 2, 2014)

malatesta32 said:


> yes, he was murdered by fascists.


Thanks for the detail [emoji6]


----------



## malatesta32 (Dec 3, 2014)




----------



## Fedayn (Dec 3, 2014)

malatesta32 said:


> yes, he was  apparently murdered by fascists from 'rival fans from radical groups' (now i cant find the original article).



Jimmy was involved with Riazor Blues a fan group at Deportivo La Coruna, an ostensibly left-leaning anti fascist group who were in the city to watch their game v Athletico Madrid. They fought with Frente Atletico the main group at Atletico who are 'mainly' far-right/fascist leaning. The adopted the name Frente as a nod to Frente de Juventudes a Falangist/fash youth group during the Franco era. Jimmy was attacked, then whilst injured/unconscious (not confirmed either way), he was thrown into the river.


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## Sweet FA (Dec 3, 2014)

Fedayn said:


> Jimmy was involved with Riazor Blues a fan group at Deportivo La Coruna, an ostensibly left-leaning anti fascist group who were in the city to watch their game v Athletico Madrid. They fought with Frente Atletico the main group at Atletico who are 'mainly' far-right/fascist leaning. The adopted the name Frente as a nod to Frente de Juventudes a Falangist/fash youth group during the Franco era. Jimmy was attacked, then whilst injured/unconscious (not confirmed either way), he was thrown into the river.



Guardian link: Death of Jimmy Romero shows Spanish football still fighting to end fan violence.

Hints of police collusion.


----------



## gawkrodger (Dec 4, 2014)

Novara article on it

http://wire.novaramedia.com/2014/12...ultras-are-getting-away-with-murder-actually/


----------



## SpineyNorman (Dec 7, 2014)

Hoping someone on this thread can help out here ( love detective or Joe Reilly maybe?). I wanted to get a copy for my partner's daughter for xmas so went here and clicked on the uk delivery bit to buy it off the iwca. it took me to a secure payment page and i made the payment but it never redirected me anywhere to give the delivery address. will it just get sent to the billing address or do i need to do something else? i've got the payment reference and can pm to iwca people if needed. thanks


----------



## Sue (Dec 7, 2014)

SpineyNorman said:


> Hoping someone on this thread can help out here. I wanted to get a copy for my partner's daughter for xmas so went here and clicked on the uk delivery bit to buy it off the iwca. it took me to a secure payment page and i made the payment but it never redirected me anywhere to give the delivery address. will it just get sent to the billing address or do i need to do something else? i've got the payment reference and can pm to iwca people if needed. thanks



love detective's the person to speak to but he hasn't been on here for ages. If you pm me your details, I can email them onto him.


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## framed (Dec 14, 2014)

SpineyNorman said:


> Hoping someone on this thread can help out here ( love detective or Joe Reilly maybe?). I wanted to get a copy for my partner's daughter for xmas so went here and clicked on the uk delivery bit to buy it off the iwca. it took me to a secure payment page and i made the payment but it never redirected me anywhere to give the delivery address. will it just get sent to the billing address or do i need to do something else? i've got the payment reference and can pm to iwca people if needed. thanks



If it doesn't arrive in reasonable time, let us know, I'm sure we'll be able to get a book to you.


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## SpineyNorman (Dec 14, 2014)

framed said:


> If it doesn't arrive in reasonable time, let us know, I'm sure we'll be able to get a book to you.


Cheers mate  no need though, love detective sorted it for me and it arrived in the post yesterday


----------



## krink (Dec 18, 2014)

Red About Town said:


> New book on left wing groups in Britain since 1956. Against the Grain.
> 
> Here is a list of chapters and contributing authors:
> 
> ...





butchersapron said:


> Just wait. I'll get it.



butchersapron  any news on this mate or did i miss it?


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 18, 2014)

Not yet - sure it won't be long.


----------



## krink (Dec 18, 2014)

ok, cheers mate.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Dec 18, 2014)

Firstly, anyone know what programme this is from, and do you have a copy of it? I'm sure I've previously seen a longer AFA reconnaissance sequence than this.





Secondly, anyone know who this is or what the story is here? It's someone that one copper has lunged at during a bit of a mêlée at the ‘Battle of Waterloo’ (a bunch of Met seem to be wading into some - presumably anti-fascist - lads at the train station), before copper number two pushes copper number one off, shouting what seems to be “He's a police officer!” The man in civvies appears to be trying to pull up his jacket at one point, perhaps to show a warrant card or some other piece of ID on or around his waistband or in a pocket?


----------



## Citizen66 (Dec 19, 2014)

Isn't it World in Action?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Dec 19, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> Isn't it World in Action?



It's none of these notable _World In Action_ episodes

‘The Terror Squad’ - 19/04/1993 (research by Gerry Gable with Tim Hepple)
‘The Nightmare Return’ - 27/03/1995 (_Searchlight_ involvement of some kind)
‘Playing With Fire’ - 06/04/1998 (Nick Lowles investigation)

‘Violence With Violence’ - 15/11/1993

Given the attempt to stitch up Leeds AFA towards the end of the last installment listed above, I find it hard to believe AFA would have anything to do with that programme.


----------



## Red About Town (Dec 19, 2014)

_The following article by Mark Hayes was originally published as Chapter 12 in 'Against the Grain: The British far left from 1956' edited by Evan Smith and Matthew Worley, published in 2014 by Manchester University Press (ISBN: 978-0-7190-9590-0)_

*Red Action – Left Wing Political Pariah*
http://www.redactionarchive.org/p/red-action-left-wing-political-pariah.html


----------



## framed (Dec 19, 2014)

.


----------



## framed (Dec 19, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> It's none of these notable _World In Action_ episodes
> 
> ‘The Terror Squad’ - 19/04/1993 (research by Gerry Gable with Tim Hepple)
> ‘The Nightmare Return’ - 27/03/1995 (_Searchlight_ involvement of some kind)
> ...



It was a C4 documentary, written and narrated by a black photo-journalist, which explored various strategies and tactics employed against the far-right. The AFA excerpt was only one small part of an hour long programme from what I recall. I'll have it on VHS somewhere but I'm fcuked if I am going to start a search for it to satisfy individual curiosity. Rest assured that it is not from World In Action, it was on C4.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Dec 19, 2014)

But can you remember the name of it, or name of the strand under which it was broadcast?


----------



## framed (Dec 19, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> But can you remember the name of it, or name of the strand under which it was broadcast?



Nope. All I remember for certain is that it was C4.


----------



## FNG (Dec 19, 2014)

Googling AFA c4 and dispatches turns up an article from notes from the boarder land about Leeds AFA,dispatches was the marque c4 current affairs program iirc


----------



## framed (Dec 19, 2014)

I don't think it came from the Dispatches stable... 

If I stumble across the tape at any point, I'll let you know. Good luck googling for it.


----------



## hot air baboon (Dec 19, 2014)

...is there such a thing as a copy of the Ray Hill Other Face of Terror doco. out there does anyone imagine..?

...that was Ch.4 aswell from memory...


----------



## framed (Dec 19, 2014)

hot air baboon said:


> ...is there such a thing as a copy of the Ray Hill Other Face of Terror doco. out there does anyone imagine..?
> 
> ...that was Ch.4 aswell from memory...



There must be a video of that kicking about. I cant remember if I have it among my collection, but pretty sure someone from AFA _must_ have it.


* Another place worth asking about that one is Hope Not Hate, they're bound to have pilfered a few old Searchlight vids before they left... or Big Nose might have it?


----------



## hot air baboon (Dec 19, 2014)

....indeed...thanks....bit of a stupid qtn really as yes surely there'll be one in an off-line or private collection somewhere out there....

...just that afaik it never seems to get vimeo'd or youtubed - mebbe some vigilant copyright holder or some other person with a tame lawyer objecting to its contents..(?)


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Dec 19, 2014)

Ray Hill stuff was quite a bit earlier, no? Like mid to late 80s. Maybe there were just less VCRs about? So less chance of copies surviving...


----------



## framed (Dec 19, 2014)

An AFA Channel on YouTube where all this stuff was at our fingertips would be nice...


----------



## DaveCinzano (Dec 19, 2014)

framed said:


> It was a C4 documentary, written and narrated by a black photo-journalist, which explored various strategies and tactics employed against the far-right. The AFA excerpt was only one small part of an hour long programme from what I recall. ...Rest assured that it is not from World In Action, it was on C4.





FNG said:


> Googling AFA c4 and dispatches turns up an article from notes from the boarder land about Leeds AFA,dispatches was the marque c4 current affairs program iirc



Cheers to both - between these two posts I had enough to figure it out.

The article about Leeds by Larry is actually about an episode of _Dispatches_ called ‘Terror On The Doorstep’, which focuses on Combat 18 ruthlessness and the victimisation of leftists (“Specialist Research: Gerry Gable”).

However, at the end of the copy I have is a continuity announcement about a similarly-themed documentary on the next night: “Paul Halliday reports on racial tensions in the London Borough of Greenwich in _Critical Eye_, tomorrow night, at nine o' clock...”

This is ‘Living With The Bunker’, the trailer of which can be found online, produced by Faction Films. The narrator is clearly the same as the person in the clip featuring the AFA chap in shadows and the AFA operation. The repeated references to the BNP ‘bunker’ in the AFA clip is also concomitant with the overarching theme of the _Critical Eye_ documentary.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Dec 19, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> It's none of these notable _World In Action_ episodes
> 
> ‘The Terror Squad’ - 19/04/1993 (research by Gerry Gable with Tim Hepple)
> ‘The Nightmare Return’ - 27/03/1995 (_Searchlight_ involvement of some kind)
> ...



Given that the WIA programme in question was sponsored by Searchlight in order to deflect the blame for the police conspiracy at Welling onto militant anti-fascism it's a safe to say that it was never the aim to stitch up Leeds. Particularly as Leeds itself was later shown to be a dynastic fiefdom firmly under Searchlight's control. Obviously not all members were involved in undermining/manipulating AFA in order to meet a Searchlight agenda - indeed it was intel from rank and file members from inside the branch deeply troubled by the way the branch was run, which led to the national inquiry that eventually led to the branch being suspended in the late 1990's. 
Needless to say 'Paul' the author of the letter was in it up to his neck. 
Read the letter again and you can almost hear the muffled chuckles as each expression of pious indignation is penned.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Dec 19, 2014)

Joe Reilly said:


> Given that the WIA programme in question was sponsored by Searchlight in order to deflect the blame for the police conspiracy at Welling onto militant anti-fascism it's a safe to say that it was never the aim to stitch up Leeds. Particularly as Leeds itself was later shown to be a dynastic fiefdom firmly under Searchlight's control. Obviously not all members were involved in undermining/manipulating AFA in order to meet a Searchlight agenda - indeed it was intel from rank and file members from inside the branch deeply troubled by the way the branch was run, which led to the national inquiry that eventually led to the branch being suspended in the late 1990's.
> Needless to say 'Paul' the author of the letter was in it up to his neck.
> Read the letter again and you can almost hear the muffled chuckles as each expression of pious indignation is penned.


Fair point.


----------



## juice_terry (Dec 19, 2014)

framed said:


> I don't think it came from the Dispatches stable...
> 
> If I stumble across the tape at any point, I'll let you know. Good luck googling for it.


It was Dispatches pal, it was primarily focusing on racism in Greenwich IIRC. I can mind asking my mum to video it for me and getting a thick ear when i got home for appearing in it


----------



## framed (Dec 19, 2014)

juice_terry said:


> It was Dispatches pal, it was primarily focusing on racism in Greenwich IIRC. I can mind asking my mum to video it for me and getting a thick ear when i got home for appearing in it



Greenwich rings a bell, there was footage from Eltham in it, wasn't there? Aye, I bow to your superior powers of recall, but it was Critical Eye...


----------



## hot air baboon (Dec 19, 2014)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Ray Hill stuff was quite a bit earlier, no? Like mid to late 80s. Maybe there were just less VCRs about? So less chance of copies surviving...



1985 by the look of it

.....trying to recall, whilst I reckon VCR's had taken off by mid 80's "survivability" over that lapse of time is another issue entirely ....thats alot of house clear outs, moves or stuck at the back of shoddy sheds & grotty garages....


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 19, 2014)

Joe Reilly said:


> Given that the WIA programme in question was sponsored by Searchlight in order to deflect the blame for the police conspiracy at Welling onto militant anti-fascism it's a safe to say that it was never the aim to stitch up Leeds. Particularly as Leeds itself was later shown to be a dynastic fiefdom firmly under Searchlight's control. Obviously not all members were involved in undermining/manipulating AFA in order to meet a Searchlight agenda - indeed it was intel from rank and file members from inside the branch deeply troubled by the way the branch was run, which led to the national inquiry that eventually led to the branch being suspended in the late 1990's.
> Needless to say 'Paul' the author of the letter was in it up to his neck.
> Read the letter again and you can almost hear the muffled chuckles as each expression of pious indignation is penned.


if memory serves didn't one of the programmes mention at least one lib dem person involved in leeds?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Dec 19, 2014)

juice_terry said:


> It was Dispatches pal, it was primarily focusing on racism in Greenwich IIRC. I can mind asking my mum to video it for me and getting a thick ear when i got home for appearing in it


No, it was an episode in the_ Critical Eye_ strand (see above), broadcast on 27 October 1994.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 19, 2014)

framed said:


> An AFA Channel on YouTube where all this stuff was at our fingertips would be nice...


perhaps some red action santa could put it together


----------



## DaveCinzano (Dec 19, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> perhaps some red action santa could put it together


I dread to think what you'd get in a stocking put together by Red Action Santa - a billiard ball painted like a satsuma? A festive bottle of Lucozade?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 19, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> I dread to think what you'd get in a stocking put together by Red Action Santa - a billiard ball painted like a satsuma? A festive bottle of Lucozade?


the bloody lucozade would be more than a decade out of date  but at least it would be in a glass bottle


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 19, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> I dread to think what you'd get in a stocking put together by Red Action Santa - a billiard ball painted like a satsuma? A festive bottle of Lucozade?


a fucking millwall brick too, no doubt


----------



## framed (Dec 19, 2014)

Careful now, we all know what this type of crude stereotyping can lead to... a very angry Red Action Santa coming down your chimneys!


----------



## DaveCinzano (Dec 19, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> bloody lucozade



I wondered about that metallic aftertaste


----------



## Red Storm (Dec 20, 2014)

There's a few videos here: 

http://antifascistarchive.org/tag/video/


----------



## Fedayn (Dec 20, 2014)

Joe Reilly said:


> Given that the WIA programme in question was sponsored by Searchlight in order to deflect the blame for the police conspiracy at Welling onto militant anti-fascism it's a safe to say that it was never the aim to stitch up Leeds. Particularly as Leeds itself was later shown to be a dynastic fiefdom firmly under Searchlight's control. Obviously not all members were involved in undermining/manipulating AFA in order to meet a Searchlight agenda - indeed it was intel from rank and file members from inside the branch deeply troubled by the way the branch was run, which led to the national inquiry that eventually led to the branch being suspended in the late 1990's.
> Needless to say 'Paul' the author of the letter was in it up to his neck.
> Read the letter again and you can almost hear the muffled chuckles as each expression of pious indignation is penned.



I was o  college doing a Uni access course in 1993 and one of the modules was 'Politics in the Media'. Imagine my, and another member of the Militant who was on the same course, surprise when the lecturer said we were going to look at the World in Action 'expose' on the then recrnt Welling demo in October 1993. A woman in my class looked at me and said, pointing at the screen to this lad with a hard hat, on he looks a bit like you "Fedayn'.... Tum tee tum says I....


----------



## Joe Reilly (Dec 21, 2014)

Fedayn said:


> A woman in my class looked at me and said, pointing at the screen to this lad with a hard hat, on he looks a bit like you "Fedayn'.... Tum tee tum says I....



So which member of Village People did you most resemble - out of 10?


----------



## Fedayn (Dec 21, 2014)

Joe Reilly said:


> So which member of Village People did you most resemble - out of 10?



The construction worker 7/10


----------



## hot air baboon (Jan 11, 2015)

*Angry, White and Proud*

Channel 4 : 14 Jan 2015

http://www.channel4.com/info/press/programme-information/angry-white-and-proud

Angry, White and Proud is powerful and shocking new documentary which delves into the world of the far-right in the UK.

With the weakening of the English Defence League, splinter far-right groups are on the rise and this is a remarkably candid and disturbing look at the growing number of far right splinter groups that have emerged.

In his first full length film, director Jamie Roberts spends a year getting to know members of the far-right: men who call themselves “patriots” but include some who openly admit to being racist and hating Muslims. With unprecedented access Jamie captures all aspects of their lives: from violent street protests and dramatic police arrests to the surprising reality of their domestic lives. It is an unflinching look at their extreme views on religion, race and immigration. The documentary also gives us an insight into the hidden agendas, and motivations of the men who have dedicated themselves to the far right. 

Former nightclub DJ Colin from South London has been part of the nationalist movement for six years and has since set up his own group – The South London Infidels. Even though in the past his affiliation to the far-right has cost him his job, meaning he now has to live with his Italian mother; Colin retains staunch negative views on Islam. 

Paul from Essex was a key figure in the now defunct English Defence League, but now heads up the South East Alliance. Paul is half Cypriot and believes that Jihadist’s are to blame for recent events not only here in the UK, but also in Cyprus. 

Andy joined the far right street movement after the tragic death of his son turned his world upside down. We hear why he believes not all nationalists fit the ‘neo-Nazi’ stereotype and why grief, not racism, is the catalyst for his views. 

The increase of such groups acting independently without one unifying leader puts added pressure on the police resources and this hard hitting documentary also examines whether this makes the far-right more dangerous than ever before.


----------



## malatesta32 (Jan 12, 2015)

this is paul prodromou or paul pitt of SEA attacking a woman with a stick  but hitting his idiot son in the face.


----------



## Thunderfist (Jan 15, 2015)

Watched it - that's forty five minutes I won't be getting back. Complete BS from start to finish - the journo (who was sniffing around in Brighton trying to get antis on camera last April) has latched onto a single sad case - "Colin" and despite the geezer's obvious and painful disconnnect from reality takes everything he says as gospel. "So there's talk of taking tings in a more serious direction yeah - of building a militia?" to which the halfwit responds positively. This allows the journo to invite us to reflect on the incredible risks he's taking infiltrating this shadow world as the vehicle he's in enters Blackwall Tunnel (going underground...geddit?)

The film baldly states that the EDL has collapsed (right at the beginning) and claims that the splinter groups are building into a new and menacing force. It then has to ignore the fact that the biggest demo in the whole thing is an EDL national in Rotherham for which Paul Pitt can take absolutely no credit. On their own the splinter groups (on a good day, i.e St Geo
rge's Day) can barely pull 200.


----------



## malatesta32 (Jan 16, 2015)

yeah it wasnt great. re: militia. well, the likes of combat 18 did so well didn't they? interesting that it came out when this did:
http://www.hopenothate.org.uk/
which gives a very different picture and a good overview of how fragmented the far right are.


----------



## Limerick Red (Jan 16, 2015)

Colin is still the admin in the south london patriots page, his "conversion" was exactly what the story arc needed, and some personal reflection / road to Damascus bit was gonna get shoehorned in one way or tother.
The lost his son boy was a proper sad case and ya got the feeling if it weren't the fash it would have been David Icke or Jesus (assuming these are not the same person) .
Interestingly Mickey Geggus from the rejects has put out this statement re : the use of their tunes on the show
http://louderthanwar.com/channel-4-get-it-badly-wrong-punk-in-the-right-wing-spotligh/

Maybe where the hell is Babylon or police car would have been more appropriate ?


----------



## chilango (Jan 16, 2015)

Noticed in the "i" National A ction getting bigged up.


----------



## cantsin (Jan 16, 2015)

Limerick Red said:


> Colin is still the admin in the south london patriots page, his "conversion" was exactly what the story arc needed, and some personal reflection / road to Damascus bit was gonna get shoehorned in one way or tother.
> The lost his son boy was a proper sad case and ya got the feeling if it weren't the fash it would have been David Icke or Jesus (assuming these are not the same person) .
> Interestingly Mickey Geggus from the rejects has put out this statement re : the use of their tunes on the show
> http://louderthanwar.com/channel-4-get-it-badly-wrong-punk-in-the-right-wing-spotligh/
> ...



Total joke that tv companies can use the likes of Geggus music in that context under a poxy blanket agreement, the writers will be lucky to see £50 out of it, and the with the shit the CRs went through vs Nazis, completely wrong.


----------



## framed (Jan 19, 2015)

chilango said:


> Noticed in the "i" National A ction getting bigged up.



Gable of _Searchlight_ and Atkinson of _HnH_ both popped up in the same Daily Record story to warn of Pegida recruiting in Scotland. although Atkinson was certainly more sceptical of Pegida's potential than GG was... In all likelihood, the 'two Pegida guys' referred to would probably have been the two visiting HSV fans who were shown around loyalist pubs by their 'Sevco Rangers' supporting friends recently.

I thought that Gable was just a bit too keen to talk up the threat of National Action... all we need now is for Steve Cartwright and Gareth Norman's names to be associated with National Action in Scotland and we'll definitely know that it's yet another state honeypot that's being promoted by Searchlight.

_Gable said: “Forget about the BNP, the EDL and the SDL.

“National Action are highly organised with a lot of foreign money backing them up. They’re not looking to attract thickos who just want a fight. They want thinkers who are prepared to die for National Socialism.”_

German Anti-Islam extremists rally in Glasgow in bid to recruit Scots


----------



## Patteran (Jan 19, 2015)

National Action's website front page image - 'first they came for the nazis'.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jan 19, 2015)

Patteran said:


> National Action's website front page image - 'first they came for the nazis'.


I thought you were taking the piss!


----------



## Patteran (Jan 19, 2015)

Anti-fascists are using national flags & 'numbers mean letters' codes, & the fascists are using Pastor Niemoller quotes & dressing like black bloc - post modern politics.


----------



## framed (Jan 20, 2015)

Patteran said:


> Anti-fascists are using national flags & 'numbers mean letters' codes, & the fascists are using Pastor Niemoller quotes & dressing like black bloc - post modern politics.



...


----------



## DrRingDing (Jan 20, 2015)

framed said:


> ...



Mental innit. Guilty Germans.


----------



## chilango (Jan 20, 2015)

framed said:


> ...



For real?


----------



## Patteran (Jan 20, 2015)

framed said:


> ...



'Drone Pilots Against the Nazis' 

Ideal flak jacket adornment next time your favourite _left side ultras_ enjoy a Gaza incursion, framed


----------



## malatesta32 (Jan 20, 2015)

framed said:


> Gable of _Searchlight_ and Atkinson of _HnH_ both popped up in the same Daily Record story to warn of Pegida recruiting in Scotland... I thought that Gable was just a bit too keen to talk up the threat of National Action:
> _Gable said: “Forget about the BNP, the EDL and the SDL. National Action are highly organised with a lot of foreign money backing them up. They’re not looking to attract thickos who just want a fight. _



job creation? talking up the threat like C18 etc?


----------



## malatesta32 (Jan 20, 2015)

national action leeds 'demo,' dressed like black bloc, numbered 12? Liverpool 12-15, SA embassy,15 (stuck a banana in mandela statues hand). using symbol like mosley's 'flash in the pan.' videos cannily edited to not look so small. attracting way too much plod attention.


----------



## malatesta32 (Jan 20, 2015)

colon lost his job. again.


----------



## Genrikh Yagoda (Jan 21, 2015)

[/QUOTE]


This documentary did not interview a single person involved with the real far right. it did give a brief insight into the EDl movement but a street movement like the EDL has a range of folk attracted to it. From your football hooligans to the families who have suffered terribly at the hands of muslims gangs and ordinary citizens gravely concerned about where their nation is headed and what they will be leaving behind for their children to inherit.

The real far right want nothing whatsoever to do with the EDL.

Whatever you think of people in national action, I can assure you they fund themselves with their own wages. They may attract investment in time but to my knowledge have none at present.

They want an end to rape culture, paedophile culture, banker rule with 1 trillion pound now deliberately created to curse all our children with. They wish to preserve their race from the very well documented war upon it. You can all research this in your time should you care to do so. It is called the Coudenhove-Kalergi project. Initially devised in the 1920's as the Pan Europa project it took something of a back seat with the war but then began in earnest after the Nazis failed to stop the jews slaughtering 60 million Europeans in the real holocaust (yes research this too as it is very well documented).

The architects of this project predicted at the outset that the intended and expected goal of the project would be total white genocide in the nations of Europe and the creation of a Eurasian and negroid non white population brought about by demographic replacement and promotion of miscegenation.

I repeat. This is very well documented for any who care to research it as is the Jewish slaughter of tens of millions of Europeans.

History is not quite what we've all been led to believe in the west. The victor writes history. But the history we are taught is a semi fictional history that mixes truth, half truth and lie and cuts out one huge side of the tale as that would turn history on its head to do so. I urge you all to research the world wars and communism (Jewish Bolshevism), the communist manifesto and the Zionist movement in the west along with Rothschild subversion of our economic and political apparatus over the last few centuries.

Also, I would urge you to research the Jewish Talmud. It has some eye opening content such as Christ boils in excrement in hell, sex with 3 year olds is OK, Lucipher is the light, only Jews are human and we gentiles are merely cattle (goyim), create usury upon the gentiles and much more besides. And research its history. From the Babylonian Edomites to Khazaria to the federal reserve Woodrow Wilson granted them in 1913, one of their major mechanisms of hegemony.

I unashamedly stand with national action, not because I agree with every single thing they stand for, but because they are the most educated folk I have come across when it comes to matters of politics and history and they do not let populism or persecution or the easy paths they could walk in ignorant bliss sway them from their duty. A duty they all recognise because their race, their nation, their culture is being attacked by an enemy that seeks to destroy it totally and is well documented of having schemed for centuries to bring about the destruction we witness today.

It is a pity so many on here are not as vocal about children being raped by paedophiles. Tens of thousands of them brutally sex trafficked. And throughout establishment the hidden hand that truly runs it has established cross national paedophile rings through elite freemasonry that indoctrinates deviant gentiles into Satanic paedophilia and then appoints these scum throughout establishment to oversee their affairs.

The topics I briefly address here require years of study to attain anything close to clarity upon. You cannot read an article or two and think you know something. You have to read all sides of an argument and all the bullshit too before you have analysed enough information to form what is likely the best opinion.

If any on here can put aside their prejudice and programmed hatred of a small group of people they know virtually nothing about in reality, and research real history and what has truly been going on I assure you will all change your outlooks in life. Not that you will necessarily agree with NA or any of their agendas, but I know for sure you would not be so quick to condemn them.

Allied forces helped Zio/Salafist insurgents in Libya topple Gaddafi and wage genocide on behalf of the Talmudic masters who decided in 1996 regime change in Libya must occur. It is detailed in Israel's 1996 Yinon plan. A high ranking general also stated he was given a list of nations that America was to be involved in regime change. This is because Zion rules over America as it does the west.

Well thanks to this blind subservience to Zion by us westerners, Libya suffered terribly. A town called Tarwega had over 20000 black Africans living there. Today it is a ghost town after western backed insurgents killed every man woman and child they came across and those who fled into the vast desert did not survive the impossible conditions and there are no known survivors I have yet read about.

National action would not spend a single penny of our money involving ourselves in these wars. They would not allow the city of London to prop up the most brutal regimes around the world purely for the interest of a handful of insanely rich bankers and stock brokers raping their lands for profit and handing back a slice of the pie to despotic rulers in joint partnership. No. They would crush these genocidal war mongering banking mafia and were all western nations to go this way then Africa, instead of being mired in poverty would be able to breathe and maybe one day get good government which used its vast resources for the benefits of its people instead of despotic regimes and mega fat cats in London and Wall St.

Animal testing is another thing these guys would abolish overnight.

Another thing to go would be usury. No more debt. No interest on that mortgage. No credit cards, No national deficit. Believe it or not you could cancel every mortgage tomorrow and tell the home owners to keep the house and provided other nations around the world done the same there would be no crash. You simply have to remove the usury masters from the financial system. This would annihilate banker bonuses but stimulate the economy immensely as the extra cash people had would be spent on other things creating jobs and growth. The banking system would have to be restructured of course without interest and anyone wishing to use the system would have to pay a flat fee that the government would cap. But when you want a loan no interest would be attached, it would come from currency supplied by government and not by usury masters who print it out of nothing and add interest. The only mandate would be loans are sanctioned by professionals who investigate what the loan is for (family emergency or business plans the two main things, with frivolous loans not granted) and if the repayment scheme is manageable.

There would be specific plans put into effect to stop the genocide of the white race with all illegal citizens deported and very strong incentive packages for the non indigenous to move elsewhere and strong financial incentives to traditional white families to have big families. There would be no genocide though.

There would also be total overhaul of the education system with strict discipline installed and also encouraged in the home so the Jeremy Kyle degenerates we're currently producing become a minimal aspect of our society. Knife crime, gun crime, rape, burglary, mugging etc would all be heavily punished. We would revolutionise this nation back to its former greatness and truly be world leaders in innovative technology, engineering and such. We still have some good things in this nation but it is nothing to what it should be. Drug and drink culture would be heavily frowned upon so our people do not think getting comatose and puking and falling all over the place in the middle of the street or smashing each others heads in for no good reason is a good system of behaviour when clearly it is isn't.

In the classroom children of 10 would not be subject to learning about lesbians and anal sex like some currently are with the paedophiles in charge. They would be learning Bach and Mozart and Monet and Shakespeare and Latin and French and German instead of struggling to do basic math. No more Tracy Emin shitting the bed for half a million and no degeneracy and a new age of beautiful renaissance would be upon us.

Of course, this is all a dream. Most zombified robots can only parrot childish stigma and have not the reasoning or education to come debate with those like me who support national action. They're not perfect. No group or person will ever be perfect, but for sure they have their hearts and minds in the right place and fight for their race and nation in this war upon it.

You may think the word war is ridiculous and dismiss it. When you truly research history though, no doubt is left in your mind that war it truly is that we witness. JFK even articulated what grave threat existed to every man, woman and child in his secret societies speech shortly before they killed him.

There is a hidden enemy that is the enemy of all mankind that plays divide and conquer. To attack Christians they will use Islam and gays (female hormones in everyday products gender bending folk btw; moobs anyone???) and atheists. To attack white folk they use non whites, stigma, white privilege propaganda and layer upon layer of pseudobabble designed to hoodwink the gullible and manipulate the blind and young.

By subversion if not by gulag.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jan 21, 2015)

Genrikh Yagoda said:


> This documentary did not interview a single person involved with the real far right. it did give a brief insight into the EDl movement but a street movement like the EDL has a range of folk attracted to it. From your football hooligans to the families who have suffered terribly at the hands of muslims gangs and ordinary citizens gravely concerned about where their nation is headed and what they will be leaving behind for their children to inherit.
> 
> The real far right want nothing whatsoever to do with the EDL.
> 
> ...


----------



## framed (Jan 22, 2015)

malatesta32 said:


> national action leeds 'demo,' dressed like black bloc, numbered 12? Liverpool 12-15, SA embassy,15 (stuck a banana in mandela statues hand). using symbol like mosley's 'flash in the pan.' videos cannily edited to not look so small. attracting way too much plod attention.



Obviously a growing threat then as Mr Gable claims... 

*Genrikh Yagoda* seems to be a bit of a fan...ny


----------



## framed (Jan 22, 2015)

chilango said:


> For real?



Yep... It's the Anti-Deutches.


----------



## DrRingDing (Jan 22, 2015)

Genrikh Yagoda said:


> This documentary did not interview a single person involved with the real far right. it did give a brief insight into the EDl movement but a street movement like the EDL has a range of folk attracted to it. From your football hooligans to the families who have suffered terribly at the hands of muslims gangs and ordinary citizens gravely concerned about where their nation is headed and what they will be leaving behind for their children to inherit.
> 
> The real far right want nothing whatsoever to do with the EDL.
> 
> ...



Did read past the 2nd paragraph. Just organise a meetup so we can talk politics.


----------



## JimW (Jan 22, 2015)

[QUOTE="Genrikh Yagoda, post: 13674489] ... layer upon layer of pseudobabble ...[/QUOTE]
You don't say!?


----------



## SpineyNorman (Jan 22, 2015)

Genrikh Yagoda said:


> This documentary did not interview a single person involved with the real far right. it did give a brief insight into the EDl movement but a street movement like the EDL has a range of folk attracted to it. From your football hooligans to the families who have suffered terribly at the hands of muslims gangs and ordinary citizens gravely concerned about where their nation is headed and what they will be leaving behind for their children to inherit.
> 
> The real far right want nothing whatsoever to do with the EDL.
> 
> ...



Thank you for that reasonable abd definitely not at all mental post. I'm convinced even if nobody else is.


----------



## seventh bullet (Jan 22, 2015)

Didn't Yagoda collect women's underwear?


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 22, 2015)

seventh bullet said:


> Didn't Yagoda collect women's underwear?



Aye.  Prodigious porno freak too. It sort of showed:


----------



## malatesta32 (Jan 22, 2015)

two words, precis, editing.


----------



## hot air baboon (Jan 22, 2015)

*Why has Nick Griffin ripped off the ‘V for Vendetta’ logo for his new party?*

http://usvsth3m.com/post/why-has-nick-griffin-ripped-off-the-v-for-vendetta-logo-for-his-new-party

Here’s the logo for British Unity – the party formed by Nick Griffin after he was expelled from the BNP in October





His Twitter profile claims, “British Unity is a grass-roots Social Media and street protest movement”. We’ll repeat that – a social media and street protest movement.


apparently ripping off the name aswell :

http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...-argue-for-keeping-scotland-in-the-uk.302989/


----------



## Citizen66 (Jan 22, 2015)

Genrikh Yagoda said:


> This documentary did not interview a single person involved with the real far right. it did give a brief insight into the EDl movement but a street movement like the EDL has a range of folk attracted to it. From your football hooligans to the families who have suffered terribly at the hands of muslims gangs and ordinary citizens gravely concerned about where their nation is headed and what they will be leaving behind for their children to inherit.
> 
> The real far right want nothing whatsoever to do with the EDL.
> 
> ...



Piss off.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 22, 2015)

I expect there's no left and right anymore either.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jan 22, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> I expect there's no left and right anymore either.


If only there was some kind of visual representation of that


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Jan 22, 2015)

> ="Genrikh Yagoda, post: 13674489, member: 65711"]


'This....gulag.'

Ignorant misanthrope fuck off.

Louis MacNeice


----------



## krink (Jan 22, 2015)

Genrikh Yagoda  can you answer these two questions about your, sorry, _the_ group known as national action; 
1. why is the logo a backwards letter R 
2. if your, sorry, _their _group is for young nationalists, why is the Sunderland bloke about 55?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jan 22, 2015)

krink said:


> ...why is the Sunderland bloke about 55?



Every group of fresh-faced young lads learning the importance of blood and soil needs a _mentor_


----------



## krink (Jan 22, 2015)

DaveCinzano said:


> Every group of fresh-faced young lads learning the importance of blood and soil needs a _mentor_



if the content of Yagoda's post is anything to go by, I'd say it's more mental rather than mentor


----------



## Joe Reilly (Jan 22, 2015)

Louis MacNeice said:


> 'This....gulag.'
> 
> Ignorant misanthrope fuck off.
> 
> Louis MacNeice



Ever notice that when fash are working at sounding profound the word "folk" is always found somewhere in the the narrative.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Jan 24, 2015)

krink said:


> 2. if your, sorry, _their _group is for young nationalists, why is the Sunderland bloke about 55?



krink can you think of any other radical political groups in the North East with a similar age breakdown?


----------



## krink (Jan 24, 2015)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> krink can you think of any other radical political groups in the North East with a similar age breakdown?



I can't think of any radical groups in the north east never mind youth ones.


----------



## manny-p (Jan 25, 2015)

Ain't National Action a bunch of spotty uni kids?


----------



## manny-p (Jan 25, 2015)

look at them with their trendy driver music. bunch of idiots.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jan 25, 2015)

Contact Disney wrt copyright infringement. I'm sure they'd be overjoyed to learn that their brand is being associated with a fascist street gang.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 25, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> Contact Disney wrt copyright infringement. I'm sure they'd be overjoyed to learn that their brand is being associated with a fascist street gang.


given Walts anti semetism and racism in general though....


----------



## Citizen66 (Jan 25, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> given Walts anti semetism and racism in general though....



Would still be funny for them to get lawyers breathing down their neck.


----------



## chilango (Jan 25, 2015)

A bit of A3 graffiti and a couple of fly posters? Not especially impressive boys.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Jan 25, 2015)

_"Perhaps The Time For Thinking Is Over?"_

LOL.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jan 25, 2015)

Fozzie Bear said:


> _"Perhaps The Time For Thinking Is Over?"_
> 
> LOL.


Well, boys, looks like we gots ourselves a _thinker_ here...


----------



## Limerick Red (Jan 25, 2015)

Might as well put this here, fash had a shite day manning the boarder in Dover today


----------



## malatesta32 (Jan 26, 2015)

manny-p said:


> Ain't National Action a bunch of spotty uni kids?



some are. see
#5689
for more details!


----------



## malatesta32 (Jan 26, 2015)

any reports on that LR? SEA not doing too great of late with that shite programme and gruppenfuhrer paul prodromou ended up in a ditch after grappling unsuccessfully with clapton mob did he not?


----------



## Limerick Red (Jan 26, 2015)

malatesta32 said:


> any reports on that LR? SEA not doing too great of late with that shite programme and gruppenfuhrer paul prodromou ended up in a ditch after grappling unsuccessfully with clapton mob did he not?


http://rabble.org.uk/secure-the-borders-demo-scuppered/


----------



## malatesta32 (Jan 27, 2015)

fash slapping time! 
http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/english-fascists-dover-stc-demostration-anti-fascists-544


----------



## laptop (Jan 27, 2015)

hot air baboon said:


> *Why has Nick Griffin ripped off the ‘V for Vendetta’ logo for his new party?*



That's a bit IngSoc, isn't it?

Batteries for Mr G's irony meter are on order.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jan 27, 2015)

laptop said:


> That's a bit IngSoc, isn't it?
> 
> Batteries for Mr G's irony meter are on order.


David Lloyd did not come up with a circled 'V' in a cultural vacuum.


----------



## krink (Jan 28, 2015)

DaveCinzano said:


> David Lloyd did not come up with a circled 'V' in a cultural vacuum.



I always thought the circled V was a modified version of the circled A and meant the same. Is that right?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jan 28, 2015)

krink said:


> I always thought the circled V was a modified version of the circled A and meant the same. Is that right?


The creative processes that went into what became ‘V For Vendetta’ (which began as a cross between Lloyd's ‘Night Raven’ period strip and an unused script Moore had submitted to DC Thomson, and which could have been called ‘Ace Of Shades’ or ‘Good Guy’) were long and evolved over time. Dez Skinn came up with the name. The circled 'v' was meant to be as evocative of the Churchillian 'victory' gesture, also signifying resistance in Occupied Europe, as much as it was of 80s anarcho-punk. There were some very interesting articles by Moore on the genesis of the strip in _Warrior_ covering this sort of stuff which are worth hunting down.


----------



## krink (Jan 28, 2015)

DaveCinzano said:


> The creative processes that went into what became ‘V For Vendetta’ (which began as a cross between Lloyd's ‘Night Raven’ period strip and an unused script Moore had submitted to DC Thomson, and which could have been called ‘Ace Of Shades’ or ‘Good Guy’) were long and evolved over time. Dez Skinn came up with the name. The circled 'v' was meant to be as evocative of the Churchillian 'victory' gesture, also signifying resistance in Occupied Europe, as much as it was of 80s anarcho-punk. There were some very interesting articles by Moore on the genesis of the strip in _Warrior_ covering this sort of stuff which are worth hunting down.



Cheers. I've been having a look at some bits on the internet just now, it's made me think I should read it again as I'll probably get more from it as a (slightly) wiser old man.

It's also making me want to watch a certain 80s tv series


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jan 28, 2015)

krink said:


> It's also making me want to watch a certain 80s tv series



How about a certain 80s film?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jan 28, 2015)




----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 28, 2015)

I'll tell alan he's being ripped off by poundshop fash next time I see him.

I don't think you can copywrite a circled V though, but I am not a lawyer so maybe you can.


----------



## laptop (Jan 28, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> I don't think you can copywrite a circled V though, but I am not a lawyer so maybe you can.



That'd be a trademark question. Fees to apply, fees to keep the trademark going...


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Jan 28, 2015)

krink said:


> Cheers. I've been having a look at some bits on the internet just now, it's made me think I should read it again as I'll probably get more from it as a (slightly) wiser old man.
> 
> It's also making me want to watch a certain 80s tv series



That was a great series


----------



## malatesta32 (Jan 29, 2015)

DaveCinzano said:


> David Lloyd did not come up with a circled 'V' in a cultural vacuum.


----------



## malatesta32 (Jan 29, 2015)

Patteran said:


> National Action's website front page image - 'first they came for the nazis'.


oh lordy!
'National Action is currently in debt to Warwick university for over £6000 court costs and although we are ignoring these claims it goes to show why as a organisation we are stuck in a rut. Our activism can only amount to what we can afford, if we had a million pounds we'd spend a million, if we have a pound we'd spend a pound. On that note if anyone would like to donate to this year's activism then please do.'


----------



## laptop (Jan 29, 2015)

malatesta32 said:


> oh lordy!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Deeply stupid thing to post 

Bankruptcy proceedings can be launched immediately?


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Jan 30, 2015)

can someone draw it to the university's attention?


----------



## Danny Glam (Feb 16, 2015)

Very sad to hear of Johns passing a great friend and ally from what seems now a long time ago,I lived with John Deason and Anna in Highbury when I eventually moved to London,and was present on every Right to work march,he was a great organiser,that's how I found my way to this forum,wondering what had become of him....I leave it now,wiser but sadder after hearing of Johns way to early demise.....he was a good friend,and what I saw and knew of the man made me very proud and very humble.Im not alone when I say a I will miss him....Formerly Danny Jones ex soldier and Right To Work Marcher......


----------



## Danny Glam (Feb 16, 2015)

Danny Glam said:


> Very sad to hear of Johns passing a great friend and ally from what seems now a long time ago,I lived with John Deason and Anna in Highbury when I eventually moved to London,and was present on every Right to work march,he was a great organiser,that's how I found my way to this forum,wondering what had become of him....I leave it now,wiser but sadder after hearing of Johns way to early demise.....he was a good friend,and what I saw and knew of the man made me very proud and very humble.Im not alone when I say a I will miss him....Formerly Danny Jones ex soldier and Right To Work Marcher......


Sorry for the omission of Clarity,I'm talking about John Boyle ex Harlesden....


----------



## krink (Feb 26, 2015)

On Saturday we have the UK version of Pegida coming to our region. They were having a march through Newcastle but they gave in to the cops demands and will now have a rally at 11.00 am in the Bigg Market. The rally is turning out to be a get-together for the right as we are now expecting to see BNP, NF, EDL and several smaller groups (North West and North East Infidels, EVF, National Action). One of the known speakers is Paul Weston of Liberty GB. There are rumours that even Nick Griffin will make an appearance.

The anti-pegida demo *is* allowed to march but they have chosen to stay away from Pegida. Russell Brand and George Galloway have said they will be there for that.

Unfortunately, the fascists will probably have a pleasant day out (unless they fight amongst themselves) as there doesn't appear to be any appetite for any kind of confrontation in the anti-pegida camp of Labour, SWP, liberals and trots.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 26, 2015)

I wouldn't call a pleasant day out having to listen to Russell Brand and George Galloway


----------



## Citizen66 (Feb 26, 2015)

krink said:


> On Saturday we have the UK version of Pegida coming to our region. They were having a march through Newcastle but they gave in to the cops demands and will now have a rally at 11.00 am in the Bigg Market. The rally is turning out to be a get-together for the right as we are now expecting to see BNP, NF, EDL and several smaller groups (North West and North East Infidels, EVF, National Action). One of the known speakers is Paul Weston of Liberty GB. There are rumours that even Nick Griffin will make an appearance.
> 
> The anti-pegida demo *is* allowed to march but they have chosen to stay away from Pegida. Russell Brand and George Galloway have said they will be there for that.
> 
> Unfortunately, the fascists will probably have a pleasant day out (unless they fight amongst themselves) as there doesn't appear to be any appetite for any kind of confrontation in the anti-pegida camp of Labour, SWP, liberals and trots.



Is Duncan Donut organising the trot call-out again?


----------



## Joe Reilly (Feb 27, 2015)

Can Nigel Farage ever had a better 48 hours? 
'Immigration Street' + net immigration figures + survey showing significant British Muslim affinity with Charlie Hebdo killers + the Jihadi John apologists speaking of "a beautiful young man" (but when questioned on C4 as to whether he had guessed JJ's identity prior to his recent unmasking, his adoring  groupie then confessed that he had only met him "ten or eleven times"). 
Even Ukip wouldn't make it up. 
They don't have to.


----------



## malatesta32 (Feb 27, 2015)

we need a new antifascists thread for this pegida stuff etc ... 
anyway, the organisers are in a bit didsarray, fallouts already especially over the start time, liaising with plod, calls for unity whilst slagging each other off. organisers far right links being exposed.
BNP, NF, EDL, Infidels, EVF, National Action all hate each other pretty much as do weston, and griffin.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 27, 2015)

What we could do with is a thread about society not fetished by anti-fascism.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 27, 2015)

Saw a clip of a pre Pergida demonstration in Germany  by Hooligans against Salafists. Normal sort of composition far right nut jobs, groups of supporters from different clubs , a few who attend cos their gut instinct tells them to even if they don't know or care who else might be attending. Surprise addition was a group of Kurds.

The Islamacists are also in the clip, and yet another Muslim convert is prominent Sven Lau who leads Sharia Patrols. Reminds me of 4Lions where the most fervent nutter was a recent convert.


----------



## Citizen66 (Feb 27, 2015)

Why is he using a non Muslim name? They should just put the boneheads and Islamists in a stadium together and let them get on with it.


----------



## krink (Mar 1, 2015)

The pegida event was embarrassingly shit (350 max) with piss poor speakers and they kept playing patriotic music for which they had handed out lyric sheets (gstq, rule brittania etc). What was slightly concerning was the number of old school far right groups all together all speaking all getting on OK*. Hopefully, it goes nowhere and I suspect pegida will go the same way on this showing.

*as usual some EDL squabbled with each other and mistook 2 of their own for lefties but it was handbags.


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 1, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> Why is he using a non Muslim name? They should just put the boneheads and Islamists in a stadium together and let them get on with it.



"Two cunts enter, no cunts leave"


----------



## malatesta32 (Mar 2, 2015)

the pegida thing was poorly organised and plod told em 11.am start due to some soccer team tournament. despite this start some were already pissed. golden dawn (2 guys), some BM (1 of the organisers), northern NF, assorted EDL, etc. the far right are constantly calling for unity then splintering into more groupuscules so it was a surprise this one turned out relatively well. we shall see how long that lasts. good turnout for us after some pretty small opposition of late i am very pleased to say. EDL are going down to brighton (probably for the publicity as they're aint much taliban activity in kemp town). next pegida up here in scotland. also antifascists had a good turnout against a tiny ukip conference. interesting weekend.


----------



## josef1878 (Mar 3, 2015)

Britain First had some kind of grand shindig in Wigan last Saturday. 20 people turned up. Buffet wasn't up to much going of the fb pictures. Discussion must have been lively as the police were called


----------



## Joe Reilly (Mar 7, 2015)

In the mid-1990's Dr Richard Stone sometime chair of the Lawrence campaign openly wondered if 'we could find a way to outlaw racist thinking' flagged at the time in _Red Action._

Now Trevor Phillips  admits in a programme to broadcast this week on C4 that such thinking was fundamentally wrong; resulting in a significant boost in support for the likes of the BNP and now UKIP.

*"Campaigners like me seriously believed that if we could prevent people expressing prejudiced ideas that eventually they would stop thinking them. But I'm now convinced we were utterly wrong."*

That militants began to seriously question anti-racist orthodoxy more than two decades earlier ((see page 266/267 BTF) only to  be casually dismissed as racist themselves illustrates how poisonous the entire liberal narrative was then, and continues in many other forms, to be today.


----------



## krink (Mar 19, 2015)

Joe Reilly said:


> In the mid-1990's Dr Richard Stone sometime chair of the Lawrence campaign openly wondered if 'we could find a way to outlaw racist thinking' flagged at the time in _Red Action._
> 
> Now Trevor Phillips  admits in a programme to broadcast this week on C4 that such thinking was fundamentally wrong; resulting in a significant boost in support for the likes of the BNP and now UKIP.
> 
> ...



Just watched that on channel 4. Wasn't impressed at all tbh. Liberal dismisses class out of hand.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 20, 2015)

Watched it last night. Very puzzling in that I am not sure who its target audience was or what, apart from Philips conclusion that he was wrong but now he is right ,the conclusion was for working class viewers .


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 20, 2015)

malatesta32 said:


> the pegida thing was poorly organised and plod told em 11.am start due to some soccer team tournament. despite this start some were already pissed. golden dawn (2 guys), some BM (1 of the organisers), northern NF, assorted EDL, etc. the far right are constantly calling for unity then splintering into more groupuscules so it was a surprise this one turned out relatively well. we shall see how long that lasts. good turnout for us after some pretty small opposition of late i am very pleased to say. EDL are going down to brighton (probably for the publicity as they're aint much taliban activity in kemp town). next pegida up here in scotland. also antifascists had a good turnout against a tiny ukip conference. interesting weekend.



What's your suggested strategy for countering UKIP who seem to be a far bigger threat than any of the far right grouplets?


----------



## malatesta32 (Mar 20, 2015)

i think that requires another thread as UKIP are an electoral threat whereas EDL/BF etc are at street level.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 20, 2015)

malatesta32 said:


> i think that requires another thread as UKIP are an electoral threat whereas EDL/BF etc are at street level.



Even though this is  a thread that deals with both electoral and street threats from the far right?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2015)

malatesta32 said:


> i think that requires another thread as UKIP are an electoral threat whereas EDL/BF etc are at street level.


yeh let's ignore here the links between bf & ukip


----------



## Joe Reilly (Mar 20, 2015)

The39thStep said:


> Watched it last night. Very puzzling in that I am not sure who its target audience was or what, apart from Philips conclusion that he was wrong but now he is right ,the conclusion was for working class viewers .



I don't think he was addressing the working class of whatever colour at all. His aim seemed to be to convert others like himself; to alert them to the threat lurking beneath the surface. Diane Abbot for one was not impressed. On _This Week_ she rubbished the programme, "nonsense"; Phillips own motivation, ("a knighthood" might be in the offing) and an Asian broadcaster for the temerity in suggesting that the cultural and religious background of the perps in Rotherham was in any way significant. He was "naive" she sneered. Instead she offered up a very specific set of political circumstances that led to key agencies turning a blind eye. If pressed she would no doubt have come up another set of specific conditions for Rochadale, Bradford. Keighly, Oxford etc where race/religion/culture did not feature at all. It's not likely he will ever convert her, but ironically, in her robust rebuttal she brilliantly confirmed his key point: anti-racism orthodoxy as preached, was very much part of the problem.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 20, 2015)

Joe Reilly said:


> I don't think he was addressing the working class of whatever colour at all. His aim seemed to be to convert others like himself; to alert them to the threat lurking beneath the surface. Diane Abbot for one was not impressed. On _This Week_ she rubbished the programme, "nonsense"; Phillips own motivation, ("a knighthood" might be in the offing) and an Asian broadcaster for the temerity in suggesting that the cultural and religious background of the perps in Rotherham was in any way significant. He was "naive" she sneered. Instead she offered up a very specific set of political circumstances that led to key agencies turning a blind eye. If pressed she would no doubt have come up another set of specific conditions for Rochadale, Bradford. Keighly, Oxford etc where race/religion/culture did not feature at all. It's not likely he will ever convert her, but ironically, in her robust rebuttal she brilliantly confirmed his key point: anti-racism orthodoxy as preached, was very much part of the problem.



I watched it with my partner and step daughter. They have lived all their lives in social housing, my partner has never earnt more than £10k a year and has been a single mother most of her life. None of their family come from any tradition of organised working class so are completely outside the 'left bubble'. My partner was married to an Iraqi for years and her daughter is mixed race. Aside from the language which they said made it hard for them their observations were :  Philips 'shocking facts' only confirmed their experiences and what they thought was true anyway, were convinced that you weren't allowed to say various things if you were white and thought immigrants got more benefits and access to housing,  liked reducing immigration but treated anyone born here as English, asked if UKIP were for the English why didn't they raise wages, scrap zero hours contracts and put more money into the health service, didn't understand what Blair was drivelling on about, thought the views of residents on Immigration Street were nearer to their own than the people interviewed and asked why there was no one normal was on the programme, stepdaughter asked why wasn't there a party that represented the working class.


----------



## malatesta32 (Mar 20, 2015)

The39thStep said:


> Even though this is  a thread that deals with both electoral and street threats from the far right?


 to be honest im not sure what this or the EDL thread are supposed to be. i tried to get 1 started but butchers did not approve so that was the end of that.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 20, 2015)

Well if you at first don't succeed , try ,try and try again .


----------



## Citizen66 (Mar 20, 2015)

It's a fair point. Butchers raised the criticism that he wanted a new thread as he was tired of this and the EDL one 'hoovering up' all discussion.  Then he didn't bother because other people's fault and ran down others trying to do the same as the title was wrong or something. He reminds me a bit of my oh.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Apr 13, 2015)

Dunno if this is the right place for this but does anyone know much about the French Antifa in the 1980's and whether or not there were that many similarities between them and Anti Fascist Action?


----------



## gamerunknown (Apr 13, 2015)

There's this documentary.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Apr 13, 2015)

gamerunknown said:


> There's this documentary.



Yeah, was just watching that and wanted to get a better sense of perspective with which to understand it!


----------



## Limerick Red (Apr 13, 2015)

.


----------



## Thunderfist (Apr 13, 2015)

Limerick Red said:


> .


 Ever the man of mystery.


----------



## Thunderfist (Apr 13, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> What we could do with is a thread about society not fetished by anti-fascism.



?????


----------



## Joe Reilly (Apr 14, 2015)

SpackleFrog said:


> Dunno if this is the right place for this but does anyone know much about the French Antifa in the 1980's and whether or not there were that many similarities between them and Anti Fascist Action?



I don't recall hearing anything of them at the time. But if the documentary is anything to go by, any similarities are likely to be one dimensional and superficial.


----------



## Patteran (Apr 14, 2015)

Joe Reilly said:


> I don't recall hearing anything of them at the time. But if the documentary is anything to go by, any similarities are likely to be one dimensional and superficial.



Remember the photo that was sent through of French redskins posing with weapons in front of RA graffiti? Was that ever sourced?


----------



## Joe Reilly (Apr 15, 2015)

Patteran said:


> Remember the photo that was sent through of French redskins posing with weapons in front of RA graffiti? Was that ever sourced?



If by 'sourced' you mean actual political contact resulting, then not as far as I know. However that they felt they had to cross the channel to find an anti-fascist standard bearer they were comfortable with may tell us a fair bit about the efficacy of physical force anti-fascism in France at the time.


----------



## Patteran (Apr 15, 2015)

It was a striking image - not every man can look menacing in dungarees.


----------



## Limerick Red (Apr 15, 2015)

Patteran said:


> It was a striking image - not every man can look menacing in dungarees.


Afaik and I'm not going to pretend to know alot here, but of the antifa gangs (more part of the Paris gang culture than fronts for political groups) that were around Paris at the time, the prefix red was put on a lot of names of the crews, the internets suggests that one of these crews was called "red action skinheads" , others included "red warriors" "lenin killers" etc. so likely just a coincidence.
One of the geezers in the photo is Julien the drummer from brigada Flores magon, who is a CNT member if were clasping at political affiliations.
From what I know from people in Paris, the antifa skinhead "scene" is very fragmented with different gangs regularly attacking each other, and apparently always rucks between redskins and sharp skins, I guess Paris is just that kinda place and looks like subculture is placed well above politics in priorities.....anyways Tis all anecdotal I could be talking shite!


----------



## framed (Apr 18, 2015)

*Militant Anti-Fascism*
A Hundred Years of Resistance

M. Testa (Author)

  $14.21  


*Publisher:* AK Press
*Format:* Book
*Binding:* pb
*Pages:* 320
*Released:* Apr 14, 2015
*ISBN-13:* 9781849352031


Fascism is not a thing of the past. In this era of crisis and austerity, it is growing even stronger. The question is: How do we stop it?

According to M. Testa, the fight against it must be aggressive and unrelenting. Using a mixture of orthodox history, eyewitness accounts, and unflinching analysis, he makes the case for a resolutely militant anti-fascism, one that gives no quarter and tolerates no excuses. Unlike other partisan accounts of contemporary battles against fascism and ultra-nationalism, _Militant Anti-Fascism_ takes us from proto-fascists in nineteenth-century Austria to modern-day street-fights in London, providing a broad context for its arguments and looking at numerous countries over a longer period of time. The result is both a serious historical study and a story of victory and struggle, past and present, designed to inspire and energize militants.

Lay aside, as M. Testa does, your faith in liberal, legislative, and state-approved approaches to today’s fascist threat. Start by reading this provocative and unapologetic overview of militant anti-fascism and the strategies that have successfully confronted the far right when it has reappeared in its many guises.

*M. Testa*, undercover anti-fascist blogger, has analyzed the changing fortunes of the British far right since 2009. He has written for the anarchist magazine _Freedom_ and is a member of the Anti-Fascist Network.


----------



## Citizen66 (Apr 18, 2015)

framed said:


> According to M. Testa, the fight against it must be aggressive and unrelenting.





malatesta32 said:


> ...and talking of 'smashing' the EDL and other inflammatory phrases whilst holding placards is likewise offputting.


----------



## malatesta32 (Apr 19, 2015)

thanks for posting that framed. i didnt think it had been published yet!
'and talking of 'smashing' the EDL and other inflammatory phrases whilst holding placards is likewise offputting.'
i dont think i have ever held a placard in my life.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Apr 29, 2015)

When the BNP first emerged on the isle of Dogs in the mid 90's, Christine Shawcroft a Labour Councillor played a prominent role in alienating swathes of the working class on the island.  Even when she was accused by fellow Labour Party members of egregiously skewing housing allocation to favour Bangladeshis she denounced them as "racists and gangsters".  (BTF,p 317) 

So when Lutfur Rahman's ('Bangladeshis First Party') was found responsible for pursuing a policy of racialism and gangsterism in Tower Hamlets, a member of Labour's NEC stepped forward in his defence.  

"A complete travesty" Christine Shawcroft called the judgement.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 29, 2015)

malatesta32 said:


> thanks for posting that framed. i didnt think it had been published yet!
> 'and talking of 'smashing' the EDL and other inflammatory phrases whilst holding placards is likewise offputting.'
> i dont think i have ever held a placard in my life.


you should chamge your tagline to unflinching analysis


----------



## belboid (Apr 29, 2015)

Joe Reilly said:


> When the BNP first emerged on the isle of Dogs in the mid 90's, Christine Shawcroft a Labour Councillor played a prominent role in alienating swathes of the working class on the island.  Even when she was accused by fellow Labour Party members of egregiously skewing housing allocation to favour Bangladeshis she denounced them as "racists and gangsters".  (BTF,p 317)
> 
> So when Lutfur Rahman's ('Bangladeshis First Party') was found responsible for pursuing a policy of racialism and gangsterism in Tower Hamlets, a member of Labour's NEC stepped forward in his defence.
> 
> "A complete travesty" Christine Shawcroft called the judgement.


Gangsterism?  Even the absurd and patently nonsensical judgement doesn't claim that.

Of course, the police found no evidence of criminality - http://www.theguardian.com/society/...r-hamlet-mayor-lutfur-rahman?CMP=share_btn_fb


----------



## cesare (Apr 29, 2015)

belboid said:


> Gangsterism?  Even the absurd and patently nonsensical judgement doesn't claim that.
> 
> Of course, the police found no evidence of criminality - http://www.theguardian.com/society/...r-hamlet-mayor-lutfur-rahman?CMP=share_btn_fb





> A BBC spokesperson said: "We continue to stand by the programme's findings which uncovered serious concerns about the use of public money, which are still being investigated by the government. Our programme did not say there was evidence of criminality. The allegations relate to potentially unlawful expenditure, not to a criminal matter. For the avoidance of doubt, the Metropolitan Police were not investigating allegations made within the Panorama programme, and any such claims are misleading."


----------



## belboid (Apr 29, 2015)

So, the police don't think there is anything to answer for. Certainly not 'gangsterism'


----------



## cesare (Apr 29, 2015)

After that Guardian article of a year ago, a lot more has come to light. For example the sale of Old Poplar Town Hall to Dreamstar (an unregistered company controlled by the owner of Rahman's election campaign wesite) for nearly half the amount it was valued at.

The Met is currently deciding whether to carry out a full criminal investigation, so it's misleading to say that the police don't think there is anything to answer for.

Also, the Judgment isn't "absurd and patently nonsensical" and you should note that LR won't be able to appeal on findings of fact.


----------



## belboid (Apr 29, 2015)

There is nothing new re the Town Hall sale, it was reported well before the guardian article. More old news, that came to nothing.


----------



## cesare (Apr 29, 2015)

The reason why those four voters picked up the case was *because* the police weren't doing anything to address concerns about LR's behaviour. The police might do now, of course.


----------



## belboid (Apr 29, 2015)

Or they might not.  I'd expect them to wait to see what happens in any possible judicial review.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Apr 29, 2015)

belboid said:


> Gangsterism?  Even the absurd and patently nonsensical judgement doesn't claim that.
> 
> Of course, the police found no evidence of criminality - http://www.theguardian.com/society/...r-hamlet-mayor-lutfur-rahman?CMP=share_btn_fb



Because if there _was_ 'evidence of criminality' we could all trust the police to be right on it couldn't we?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 29, 2015)

Joe Reilly said:


> Because if there _was_ 'evidence of criminality' we could all trust the police to be right on it couldn't we?


shurely 'right in on it'


----------



## Joe Reilly (Apr 29, 2015)

belboid said:


> Gangsterism?  Even the absurd and patently nonsensical judgement doesn't claim that.



Look at his track record. Among his known associates: fraudsters, sex offenders and similarly unsavoury characters. Even without prohibition (or sharia law) he had all the makings of an early 'Nucky' Thompson!


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## belboid (Apr 29, 2015)

Joe Reilly said:


> Look at his track record. Among his known associates: fraudsters, sex offenders and similarly unsavoury characters. Even without prohibition (or sharia law) he had all the makings of an early 'Nucky' Thompson!


sorry, didn't realise you'd joined the AWL.


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## Red Storm (Apr 30, 2015)

belboid said:


> sorry, didn't realise you'd joined the AWL.


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## LiamO (Apr 30, 2015)

Bell-end is as bell-end does. Or as my dear departed mother would say "What would you expect from an ass but a kick?"


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## belboid (Apr 30, 2015)

Fuck Joes tabloid shite. Utter drivel, apolitical crap. 

Anyone who can read the judgement against Rahman and not be disgusted at the pro-state, anti-democratic, agenda it pushes is an idiot.


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## Joe Reilly (May 1, 2015)

> Fuck Joes tabloid shite. Utter drivel, apolitical crap.
> 
> Anyone who can read the judgement against Rahman and not be disgusted at the pro-state, anti-democratic, agenda it pushes is an idiot.



An arresting narrative....except for... 
a) it was not 'pro-state' elements that brought the case to the attention of the court - but four local petitioners. 
b) as agents of said state, the only inquiries about and subsequent threats of arrest by police were directed at those making the allegations _against_ 'Nucky' & co 
c) 'vote early, vote often' - might have it's attractions in terms of electoral strategy, but democratic it ain't.   
d) finally as with the exposure of Muslim grooming gangs the 'pro-state' 'tabloids' had little or nothing to do with any of it.


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## belboid (May 1, 2015)

Jesus, is that meant to be some kind of serious analysis?

Four little local petitioners, lets skip over the fact one is a perennial tory candidate, and anothers a millionaire kipper.  They're just four good, brave, lil locals.  And when it came to the pseudo-court, was it their evidence that was key?  No, it was the evidence of establishment journalist Andrew Gilligan, and the Price Waterhouse report, ordered by Secretary of State Pickles (a report which cost the borough about twice all the 'bribes' Rahman was meant to have given). And even they were just four lickle locals like you pretend, it would make zero difference to the fact that the *judgement *is blatantly pro-state.  Your trying to argue against something I never said.  Again.

The police investigated, but cleared, Rahman already, they just found no evidence against him so he wasn't arrested.

Vote early vote often doesnt come into it. you clearly havent read anything beyond some tabloid headline if you think it does. He was cleared of vote rigging.  Minor detail. Dont let it bother you.

Oh gosh, funny how you're linking a Muslim mayor to paedophilia on no evidence whatsoever! You played the guilt by association card earlier, so its only natural you'd play this one now. Oh, and Gilligan. Plus the Mail's hysterical bullshit which you've just aped so neatly.

It's very sad that you have decided to highlight those non-issues at the important ones, as they skip over the key judgements that could have a massive impact in the future.

An elected representative has been thrown out of office, not by the electorate, but by a single barrister - not even a judge, although he was 'sitting as' one. That is the state taking hold of its powers quite firmly.

The claim of spiritual injury is utterly reactionary in any circumstances, in these it was quite simply racist, with Muslims being described as as backward as 19th century Irishmen. Catholic leaders can regularly say 'Dont vote for abortionists', but imams arent allowed to say 'vote against islamopohbia'?  Clear and blatant double standards.

Then there's the charge of libeling his opponent as a racist, despite even the pseudo-judge accepting that neither Rahman nor his appointed agents, had ever said such a thing. He is being held responsible for things he didn't even say.  Not to mention the fact that the shit being thrown at Rahman - islamist, funding terrorists, dodgy 'associates' - was just as potentially libelous as anything said by his supporters, but that is irrelevant, apparently. We've already had Farage complaining to the police about a HIGNFY joke, no doubt part of setting up a wider claim for unfair treatment that will be brought before this unelected, unappealable, court if he loses. This judgement blows the door wide open for all kinds of absurd cases - call a racist a racist and, unless the judge (if it is a real judge) agrees, the whole election has to be rerun!  Even if its not another candidate calling the racist a racist.

You dont have to think Rahman is white as snow, or as red as Lenin, to think this judgement is a reactionary, anti-democratic, nonsense. Rahman - ever so slightly - challenged the establishment, and stuck up for the poorest in his borough. Even tho he is only ever so slightly to the left of the labourites, he still had a whole ton of bricks thrown at him - by millionaires and the state. Just imagine what it would be like if an actually left wing Mayor had been elected.

Mayor's are a shit idea, always have been.  but if they are to be thrown out, it should be by the voters, not an unelected, unqualified, judge.


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## Joe Reilly (May 1, 2015)

belboid said:


> Jesus, is that meant to be some kind of serious analysis?
> 
> Four little local petitioners, lets skip over the fact one is a perennial tory candidate, and anothers a millionaire kipper.  They're just four good, brave, lil locals.  And when it came to the pseudo-court, was it their evidence that was key?  No, it was the evidence of establishment journalist Andrew Gilligan, and the Price Waterhouse report, ordered by Secretary of State Pickles (a report which cost the borough about twice all the 'bribes' Rahman was meant to have given). And even they were just four lickle locals like you pretend, it would make zero difference to the fact that the *judgement *is blatantly pro-state.  Your trying to argue against something I never said.  Again.
> 
> ...



The notion that Rahman might ever have been considered a threat to the establishment, much less the state, is pure delusion: with a analysis buttressed by what can only be described as confused rambling. 
For example:

You claim the state is out to get him but the agents of the state in the borough targeted his arch opponent instead.

You claim the state is out to get him but also seek solace in the possibility of a judicial review..

You claim the state is out to get him by stressing that his political executioner was not even a proper judge. 

So let's cut to the chase.

What you seem to be careful to avoid saying, although others elsewhere, are considerably less coy, is that the real motivation behind his ousting is an irrational fear of Islam or Islamism.

That's how you and Ken and George and the SWP and the rest of you really see it isn' it?

And how do the rest of us regard it? 

With wry amusement mostly.

Identity politics writ large.

For slow learners.


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## belboid (May 4, 2015)

So, your only actual reply is to repeat the irrelevant fact that Biggs was investigated by the police for two minutes.  So what?  That changes nothing. They did nothing, and all the power of the state and the right was levied against Rahman.

And not for any 'identity politics' reasons, tho I know how you can hardly see anything else when any discussion of racism comes up, but because he was a teeny bit anti-establishment. 

You can repeat all the smears you like, Joe, it doesn't change the fact that this is a reactionary judgment, and that you are on the side of the reactionaries.


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## Pickman's model (May 4, 2015)

belboid said:


> Fuck Joes tabloid shite. Utter drivel, apolitical crap.
> 
> Anyone who can read the judgement against Rahman and not be disgusted at the pro-state, anti-democratic, agenda it pushes is an idiot.


i would be most surprised if the agenda pushed by a part of the state was in any way anti-state. wouldn't you?


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## belboid (May 4, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> i would be most surprised if the agenda pushed by a part of the state was in any way anti-state. wouldn't you?


of course, it's joe that has the problem with that statment, not me.


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## Joe Reilly (May 5, 2015)

belboid said:


> So, your only actual reply is to repeat the irrelevant fact that Biggs was investigated by the police for two minutes.  So what?  That changes nothing. They did nothing, and all the power of the state and the right was levied against Rahman.
> 
> And not for any 'identity politics' reasons, tho I know how you can hardly see anything else when any discussion of racism comes up, but because he was a teeny bit anti-establishment.
> 
> You can repeat all the smears you like, Joe, it doesn't change the fact that this is a reactionary judgment, and that you are on the side of the reactionaries.



His arch opponent in terms of the court case was not of course Biggs (who  along with the rest of Labour were frit and sat on their hands) but Andy Erlam, the lead complainant. One possible charge leveled at him by the Police was of 'perverting the course of justice'. The irony. Even on the day Judge Mawrey was upholding his complaints he received  an email from CID inviting him to attend an interview the following day. 

If Rahman was a threat to the state why did the local agents of said state, ignore 20 individual complaints (against Rahman) by a sitting Councillor, a Tory no less? 

And why was it that the little time they did invest in investigation, was in harassing Rahman''s direct opponent Erlam instead? 

In addition if he was as you say just a "teeny bit anti-establishment" but as a result "all the power of the state levied against him" it falls to you to explain, having again ducked the Islamaphobia angle, the _real_ reasons behind the disproportionate response? 

In your own time.


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## belboid (May 6, 2015)

I have told you Joe, if you choose to ignore what I've said, that's your fault.


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## Smokeandsteam (May 13, 2015)

Unite moves to make clear that they do not support Rahman on the issues covered by the court case. Oh, and they will support Labour against him in any future election as well.

Not only a slap down of stalinist aide Murray but perhaps an indication that a review of the evidence does not make pleasant reading:

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...-mccluskey-lutfur-rahman-tower-hamlets-letter


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## belboid (May 13, 2015)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Unite moves to make clear that they do not support Rahman on the issues covered by the court case. Oh, and they will support Labour against him in any future election as well.
> 
> Not only a slap down of stalinist aide Murray but perhaps an indication that a review of the evidence does not make pleasant reading:
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...-mccluskey-lutfur-rahman-tower-hamlets-letter


more to do with Christine Shawcross being suspended from the party, and a right-wing backlash following the election defeat. He still condemns the blatantly political, and extremely right wing, judgement re 'spiritual influence' - they do NOT say that they 'don't support Rahman on the issues' 

More useful to link straight  to what McCluskey said, rather than the Grauniads interpretation thereof - http://www.theguardian.com/politics...-on-lutfur-rahman-and-labour-in-tower-hamlets


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## Joe Reilly (May 13, 2015)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Unite moves to make clear that they do not support Rahman on the issues covered by the court case. Oh, and they will support Labour against him in any future election as well.
> 
> Not only a slap down of stalinist aide Murray but perhaps an indication that a review of the evidence does not make pleasant reading:
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...-mccluskey-lutfur-rahman-tower-hamlets-letter



McCluskey expresses concern about the "democratic implications of the judgement" which is fair enough. But it ought to have been balanced by the observation that it was merely corrective, if as the court found, the election was itself undemocratic.


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## belboid (May 13, 2015)

Joe Reilly said:


> McCluskey expresses concern about the "democratic implications of the judgement" which is fair enough. But it ought to have been balanced by the observation that it was merely corrective, if as the court found, the election was itself undemocratic.


Even tho it only found it 'undemocratic' because of the blatant political bias McCluskey complains of


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## Joe Reilly (Jun 25, 2015)

According to Paul Mason on C4 news - 'the Greek Left have decided not to confront the Greek Right' when the latter take to the streets. Now there may be sound tactical reasons for this, but you can't help feeling this 'tactic of acquiesence' will prove increasingly popular - not only in Greece - but in  host of other countries across Europe.


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## malatesta32 (Jun 26, 2015)

sounds like over here where, apart from in london or brighton, antifascist presence at far right demos is decreasing. although the EDL, infibellends, NF etc are calling frequent demos they are fragmented and spreading themselves thinly but some opposition should be present.


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## LiamO (Jun 26, 2015)

Joe Reilly said:


> According to Paul Mason on C4 news - 'the Greek Left have decided not to confront the Greek Right' when the latter take to the streets. Now there may be sound tactical reasons for this, but you can't help feeling this 'tactic of acquiesence' will prove increasingly popular - not only in Greece - but in  host of other countries across Europe.



So... any word (from the greek left) on the rationale behind this?


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## Joe Reilly (Jun 26, 2015)

malatesta32 said:


> sounds like over here where, apart from in london or brighton, antifascist presence at far right demos is decreasing. although the EDL, infibellends, NF etc are calling frequent demos they are fragmented and spreading themselves thinly but some opposition should be present.



The situation is in no way similar. When fascists are sending MP's to Parliament and the wider right is putting many ten's of thousands on the streets, then we can draw parallels. As for 'a fragmented right spreading themselves thinly' the solution for those who see a threat in their tactics, is a relatively simple one. It will however require intelligence, analysis and low cunning. First identify the 'weak sister'.   

Done properly, all the others will feel the reverberations. If it does not seem to have the desired effect - pause - then following the same recipe. Intelligence,analysis and planning. Repeat.

The alternative approach is to try to and cover every one of their initiatives. Which means anti-fascism 'spreading_ itself_ thinly' leaving _it_ wide  open to a return of serve.

As bad, if not worse politically it is also open to the accusation of being symbiotic.

That apart, cross Europe it is the populist/euro-nationalist right who are clearly the standard bearers...becoming a viable opposition to them, is now the challenge for us here as well.


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## Joe Reilly (Jun 26, 2015)

LiamO said:


> So... any word (from the greek left) on the rationale behind this?



Nope. Just Mr Mason's analysis of the extant situation.


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## malatesta32 (Jun 26, 2015)

well luckily for the greeks, Eddie stampton is moving over there.


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## Citizen66 (Jun 26, 2015)

malatesta32 said:


> well luckily for the greeks, Eddie stampton is moving over there.



Immigrants: if you can't beat 'em, join 'em.


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## LiamO (Jun 26, 2015)

Has this been posted here yet?  http://www.iwca.info/?p=10247

*Who will fill the vacuum?*
Labour’s general election defeat has been described by one high-ranking insider as perhaps ‘the greatest crisis the Labour party has faced since it was created’. Scotland has been lost to the SNP, and UKIP are eating into Labour’s core vote in England. New Labour believed it could turn its back on the working class as they would have ‘nowhere to go’: instead, the working class is turning its back on Labour in kind. Euro-nationalism is currently filling this vacuum in working class representation, almost by default, but the opportunity is there for a pro-working class alternative to Labour if progressive forces can be drawn together down the line.



The general election of 7 May saw the Labour party suffer what Jon Cruddas has called its ‘worst defeat since 1918′. Scotland, so long the party’s backbone, has been lost en masse to the SNP, while UKIP came third in the popular vote polling 3.8m votes and finishing second in 120 seats.

The UKIP surge came not just in the shires, as liberal prejudice would have  liked, but also in the Labour heartland. Of the 50 seats that saw UKIP’s largest increase in vote share between 2010 and 2015, 32 were Labour. By region, UKIP’s biggest gains were in the Labour heartlands of Yorkshire and the North-East, and across the north UKIP averaged 16.9% in Labour-held seats.

Robert Ford, who has been tracking UKIP’s ascent in recent years, writes: ‘Ukip’s advance was strongest in seats with the largest concentrations of white voters, working-class voters, voters with no educational qualifications, and where opposition to immigration and the EU was highest. The strongest Ukip advances came in the seats along the east coast and in declining northern towns, where such factors came together. The party won shares of 25% or more in places such as Grimsby, Hartlepool, Thurrock and Boston and Skegness. Ukip’s performance also confounded those who argued that the party would primarily hurt the Conservatives – Ukip’s advance was slightly larger in Labour-held seats and Labour did four points worse in the areas where Ukip advanced most, compared to a 2-point Tory drop’ (link). Nigel Farage’s personal view is that ‘UKIP significantly helped the Conservatives win this election by tearing vast chunks out of the Labour vote in the north and the Midlands’ and that UKIP’s greatest growth potential is in Labour areas (link), something outlined in UKIP’s ’2020 strategy’ (link). Labour’s John Healey concurs with this view (link) and Douglas Carswell, UKIP’s only MP, has told Channel 4 that he sees UKIP’s future as being ‘a non-socialist alternative to Labour in England’.

The Labour hierarchy is in turmoil over how to respond to this: were they too left wing? Were they not left wing enough? The horrifying answer for them is: both and neither, illustrating the existential bind Labour finds itself in. It did not just haemorrhage  support in the heartlands or Middle England, it did so in both. One may be soluble, the other may not.

The working class turning its back on Labour

The roots of Labour’s crisis are quite simple. The New Labour project was underpinned by the belief that Labour could ditch Clause 4, embrace neo-liberalism and orientate entirely to the middle class, safe in the knowledge that its working class core vote could be taken for granted because, in Peter Mandelson’s words, they had ‘nowhere to go’.

At the time is was noted by those that founded the IWCA that if New Labour dared turn its back on the working class, the working class would, contrary to New Labour wisdom, reciprocate. It was also concluded that Euro-nationalism was best placed to benefit from this as the de facto radical alternative, in the absence of a worthwhile offer to the working class from the left.

Sure enough, the BNP began to fill the vacuum in working class political representation, taking 192,000 votes in 2005 and over half a million in 2010, seeing the election of two MEPs in 2009 and 50-odd councillors, becoming the opposition in Burnley and Barking. The BNP’s collapse has been gleefully received as a vindication by the liberal left, but UKIP has assumed its constituency and substantially grown it (almost seven-fold from the BNP’s vote in 2010) with the benefit of experience (learning from the BNP’s mistakes, as the BNP learnt from the NF), superior middle management, a less toxic brand and greater corporate backing.

What this demonstrates is that the BNP’s success, and indeed that of UKIP, has very little to do with the innate charm of these parties and is more symptomatic of working class disillusionment with the political centre, Labour specifically. From 1997 onwards, directly coincident with the emergence of New Labour, electoral turn-out has fallen well below its post-war trend of around 75%, with 65% now seemingly established as the new norm (link). As the progenitors of the IWCA wrote in 1995: ‘In straightforward language, it is the politics of the Labour Party that has created the BNP… Labour and the Left are increasingly alien to working class people’ (link). The Oxford academics Geoffrey Evans and Jon Mellon wrote just before the 2015 election that ‘Labour’s move to the ‘liberal consensus’ on the EU and immigration alienated many of their core voters a long time before UKIP were an effective  political presence. These disaffected core voters left Labour in 1997, 2001, 2005 and 2010 and went to other parties—or simply stopped voting. UKIP has since attracted these disaffected former Labour voters, particularly from the Conservatives… the damage to Labour’s core support had already been done by new Labour’s focus on a pro-middle class, pro-EU and, as it eventually turned out, pro-immigration agenda, before the arrival of UKIP as a plausible electoral choice in the years following the 2010 election’ (link). [It will be interesting to see how much of UKIP's increased support has come directly from Labour this time.]

And ‘where the liberal left continues to ignore working class concerns and has priorities other than immediate working class interests, Euro-nationalism is capable and more than happy to ‘fill the vacuum”[1]. UKIP are doing precisely this.


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## LiamO (Jun 26, 2015)

*Who will fill the vacuum? And how?*

UKIP, like the BNP before them, are the symptom more than the disease, and an opportunistic one at that. Like the BNP, they are able to pose as Old Labour in Labour heartlands and as Old Tory elsewhere, as advantage dictates. It is not impossible that they will implode as the BNP did, or that the left-right contradictions in their make-up will rent them asunder. But the wider point is that the vacuum exists, and will be filled one way or another. If UKIP implode another formation will emerge from the right, because the gap in the market is there, and it will be wiser and more emboldened from the previous experience. And the political centre of gravity will continue drifting further to the right.

As for Labour, Cruddas says that its current plight ‘could be the greatest crisis the Labour party has faced since it was created. It is epic in its scale’. Post-New Labour, what is the Labour party for? If it cannot retain working class support in its heartlands, if it is no longer seen as the party of the class by an significant and growing section of the working class, what is its reason to exist? Can this ever be resolved? Having lost Scotland, and facing constituency boundary changes that will likely work against them, will it ever be able to form a national government on its own again? Labour, like the Lib Dems, are finding out the hard way that there is no need for three neo-liberal parties, or even two; and that gaining votes in Guardianland doesn’t compensate for the loss of the core it took for granted.

One only has to look across the Channel to mainland Europe to see the vacuum being filled by Euro-nationalist parties (just last week, the Finns Party entered government in Finland), and for similar reasons as in the UK. Recently, the French think-tank the Jean Jaurès Foundation, founded by the former French PM Pierre Mauroy to ‘promote the values of Democratic Socialism’, issued its analysis of the factors behind the rise of the Front National. It reported:

‘With no political offer from the left, working-class French people feel they have been abandoned economically, socially and culturally. The FN has stepped into the breach: it says to these people: “you are the most important and we will fight for you”.

‘The left is trying to make up to what it calls ‘real minorities’ who it believes are discriminated against. In doing so it has become indifferent, even scornful, of the wider French working class. They say to these native French “you have not understood, you are racist and sexist”, and so these people have said, so be it. They are ready to admit voting FN because the left has abandoned them and the FN is interested in them.’ (link)

In short, the left in France has abandoned class politics, embraced identity politics and taken the core working class vote for granted, and is now reaping the whirlwind. Much as in the UK. As to how the FN have achieved credibility with the French working class, the FN’s Michel Paulin put it quite simply: ‘People are coming to us because we go to them. We are there on the street, on the landings of the tower blocks. People see we don’t have horns. They see our ideas are their ideas. And they don’t see the other parties at all’ (link). This simple lesson has been staring the European left in the face since the emergence of the FN as a truly national force in 1985, and it has uniformly and wilfully refused to act on it.[2]

So what can be done? There is no reason why Euro-nationalism should be the only political tendency appearing on working class landings, listening and responding to working class concerns. This could and should be the default job of the pro-working class left, and the IWCA experiment has shown that the mainstream parties are as vulnerable to an attack from a progressive working class party as they are to the radical right.

On a macro scale, why should it be left to UKIP to frame the debate around hot-button topics like the EU and immigration in a reactionary fashion, when progressive pro-working class arguments can be made? The EU is a capitalist project; immigration policy is used to provide a weak, defenceless reserve army of labour for UK plc and keep wages down (the Migration Observatory at Oxford University recently reported  ‘UK research suggests that immigration has a small impact on average wages of existing workers but more significant effects along the wage distribution: low-wage workers lose while medium and high-paid workers gain.’ [link]). This is obvious: why would the EU be anything other than a capitalist project? Why would immigration policy be designed in any other way but to service the needs of capital? In Europe, as elsewhere, the free movement of labour is at the behest of the free movement of capital – that is the way it works. And is best explained in that way. To do otherwise out of sentiment or sensitivity is to sow a dangerous confusion.

On austerity, Labour were so enfeebled in this election they couldn’t even muster the courage to counter the austerity narrative -’we must make cuts or we’ll become Greece; Gordon Brown’s profligate spending caused the recession’ – despite there being ample mainstream intellectual ammunition with which to do so (link and link). The ‘austerity’ label is nothing but the cloak behind which the state and society will be further re-configured along neo-liberal lines, with the NHS to be dismembered, education opened up to the highest bidder and the remaining vestiges of the welfare state to be squeezed yet further, with more food banks and suicides the predictable consequence. And why can’t Labour counter this narrative? Because they are complicit. The recession began on Gordon Brown’s watch, but was very much a New Labour recession, not an Old Labour one as the austerians would have it. New Labour accepted, extended and normalised the neo-liberal economic agenda in the UK, opening up the economy to financialisation which left it especially vulnerable when the global financial crisis hit. Neo-liberalism itself was a ruling class initiative which sought to resolve the endemic economic crises of the 1970s by raising profitability through the smashing of working class power, security and institutions. It is Labour’s acceptance of this agenda that has fundamentally, and perhaps irrevocably, alienated it from the working class: the class understands this, even if Peter Mandelson doesn’t.

In point of fact, if pro-working class forces can be drawn together down the line, UKIP can be looked at as doing our job for us by breaking off working class support from the mainstream parties. To again quote Evans and Mellon on UKIP’s support: ‘There are two quite distinct social groups that have shown a disproportionately high level of support for radical right-wing parties: the working class and the somewhat quaintly labelled ‘petty bourgeoisie’ (the self-employed—small employers such as shop owners)… working-class and petty-bourgeoisie radical right-wing party voters are divided on economic issues, but share the types of non-economic preferences addressed by radical right wing parties’ [italics added] (link). That UKIP is able to win working class support when it doesn’t even share the economic priorities of those self-same working class supporters is an indictment of the left as it stands, but it also indicates the opportunity that is there for an effective, pro-working class alternative to Labour. But if the battle for working class hearts and minds is to be won, Euro-nationalism will need to be challenged head on by just as compelling and grand a narrative. That is the challenge still.


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## miktheword (Jul 25, 2015)

As Jezza has seemingly taken over from Owen as 'leftie' poster boy in much of the media, if not MSM  (mumsnet..perhaps due to this current facial hair thing..)
anyway, he's current.
 it doesn't seem inappropriate to advertise his cameo in Beating The Fascists p103 -4 
Now, attempting to join RA at the time was a difficult job. Writing to redundant Po boxes in Hatfield, with no reply, then running into those who were future RA comrades at Bethnal green events without knowing, was common. Security obviously paramount. Got a letter apologising for delay in contact, saying a recent national meeting resulted in many serious injuries...fortunately, they were all fascists !   

(So, probably would have been the same Red Rose club, Islington that pages 103-4 refers to in Beating The Fascists..
will skip the description of the street struggle that preceeded   (as some will no doubt view it as a football hoolie , leftie encounter ..whereas  the reality is of organising and advertising a group that took the oppo on, and needed sorting, when they attacked; can't remember them doing it again) 

so...

they were seen off..

p104 BtF

Without much discussion it was decided to carry on with the meeting. Though it was unlikely they would come back, I volunteered for sentry duty outside, more to calm myself down than anything else. One of the women who worked who worked in the kitchen was carted off in an ambulance, with a suspected heart attack. So I'm standing there when labour MP Jeremy  Corbyn   opens the door of the centre and peeps out,

 'Have they gone?' he says,. .'yeah', I say. .'Were  they here for you or me?'

'It was us'. .I reply.  . You could see the relief visible on his face.. 'Oh good'..he remarked cheerfully. Then with a quick look in both directions, he skipped off down the road.

How ironic I thought. Here we have a member of parliament, no less, having to skulk around his own constituency for fear of rampaging fascists everyone else seems determined to deny exist'

Police turn up asking if anyone knows why there are a number of men in St Thomas's hospital with serious head injuries. .got the appropriate response.

.twelve  months later Jeremy  Corbyn  would be installed as the honorary president of the newly launched Anti Fascist Action.


The early years obviously.. before the '89 re-launch, with lessons learned.


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## Joe Reilly (Jul 27, 2015)

miktheword said:


> Now, attempting to join RA at the time was a difficult job. Writing to redundant Po boxes in Hatfield, with no reply, then running into those who were future RA comrades at Bethnal green events without knowing, was common. Security obviously paramount. Got a letter apologising for delay in contact, saying a recent national meeting resulted in many serious injuries...fortunately, they were all fascists !


There certainly did seem to be some 'security' implications in contacting RA in a meaningful way at the time but I'm not convinced it was anything RA itself did or failed to do. The same problems happened with AFA including the commercial arm (t-shirts etc). Assuming  it was a matter of personnel, changes were made. Then when things didn't seem to improve (complaints to people manning stalls at gigs continued: 'such and such hadn't arrived') ever greater efficiency was introduced. Public relations wise, it obviously wasn't great. Despite the changes the problems persisted.

Around that the time the weekly mail rather than being collected was posted by the BM box to a member's home. Over a number of weeks the mail was not arriving within the allotted window while the company insisted they had sent it out on time. So yer man toddles to the local sorting office to find out what was happening. With no plausible explanation forthcoming, the manager was summoned. He came across as defensive, even aggressive. Puzzled yer man strolled the 15 or so minutes back to the house. His heel had just cleared the threshold when a Post Office van screamed to a halt outside, and a bulky manila envelope was bundled through the letter box and landed at his feet. Then the van tore off again.  It was evident an attempt to give the appearance of the mail having been delivered 'normally' while he was out. And thus, not as a result of his recent visit. Accordingly the mail was collected directly from the company after that. And things seemed to improve. For a while.

Eventually the company was asked to explain why the post mark on any number of letters were sometimes weeks old?  'Off the record and on the qt' - it was explained in hushed tones that all incoming mail for RA (and B&H incidentally) was routinely sifted by the type of people that did that sort of thing. So what was happening was that the mail was first sifted at the BM box and then having been re-directed was again held to be sifted at the sorting office. Looking back, it's a wonder RA ever got anything at all!


----------



## gawkrodger (Aug 5, 2015)

Not sure where to put this as the Clapton threads have been binned, but looks like the fash had a go at Clapton Ultras yesterday

http://www.claptonultras.org/


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 5, 2015)

gawkrodger said:


> Not sure where to put this as the Clapton threads have been binned, but looks like the fash had a go at Clapton Ultras yesterday
> 
> http://www.claptonultras.org/





> We are calling on all supporters of Clapton and all those who stand against fascism to join us


----------



## tony.c (Aug 5, 2015)

Joe Reilly said:


> There certainly did seem to be some 'security' implications in contacting RA in a meaningful way at the time but I'm not convinced it was anything RA itself did or failed to do. The same problems happened with AFA including the commercial arm (t-shirts etc). Assuming  it was a matter of personnel, changes were made. Then when things didn't seem to improve (complaints to people manning stalls at gigs continued: 'such and such hadn't arrived') ever greater efficiency was introduced. Public relations wise, it obviously wasn't great. Despite the changes the problems persisted.
> 
> Around that the time the weekly mail rather than being collected was posted by the BM box to a member's home. Over a number of weeks the mail was not arriving within the allotted window while the company insisted they had sent it out on time. So yer man toddles to the local sorting office to find out what was happening. With no plausible explanation forthcoming, the manager was summoned. He came across as defensive, even aggressive. Puzzled yer man strolled the 15 or so minutes back to the house. His heel had just cleared the threshold when a Post Office van screamed to a halt outside, and a bulky manila envelope was bundled through the letter box and landed at his feet. Then the van tore off again.  It was evident an attempt to give the appearance of the mail having been delivered 'normally' while he was out. And thus, not as a result of his recent visit. Accordingly the mail was collected directly from the company after that. And things seemed to improve. For a while.
> 
> Eventually the company was asked to explain why the post mark on any number of letters were sometimes weeks old?  'Off the record and on the qt' - it was explained in hushed tones that all incoming mail for RA (and B&H incidentally) was routinely sifted by the type of people that did that sort of thing. So what was happening was that the mail was first sifted at the BM box and then having been re-directed was again held to be sifted at the sorting office. Looking back, it's a wonder RA ever got anything at all!


I had dropped out of most activity by the 80's due to shiftwork commitments, and the people I used to go with had dropped out for various reasons. I did try to give financial support though. I sent a £50 donation to RA/AFA and didn't receive an acknowledgement, though the cheque was cashed. I assumed it was because of haphazard administration. I later sent a cheque for some stickers, but never received them, although again the cheque had been cashed. I assumed that either RA had something against me or that the cheques had been intercepted and cashed by fash in Royal Mail, or Special Branch.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2015)

tony.c said:


> I had dropped out of most activity by the 80's due to shiftwork commitments, and the people I used to go with had dropped out for various reasons. I did try to give financial support though. I sent a £50 donation to RA/AFA and didn't receive an acknowledgement, though the cheque was cashed. I assumed it was because of haphazard administration. I later sent a cheque for some stickers, but never received them, although again the cheque had been cashed. I assumed that either RA had something against me or that the cheques had been intercepted and cashed by fash in Royal Mail, or Special Branch.


loads of people i knew (around 8-10) tried to get in touch with afa without hearing back.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2015)

gawkrodger said:


> Not sure where to put this as the Clapton threads have been binned, but looks like the fash had a go at Clapton Ultras yesterday
> 
> http://www.claptonultras.org/


http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/any-clapton-fans-on-here.328769/


----------



## gawkrodger (Aug 5, 2015)

yeh, but that's not in the politics section! Mirror report

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/shocking-footage-shows-violent-clashes-6196973


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 5, 2015)

Anti-fascist call outs would be the relevant thread:

http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/anti-fascist-call-outs-activities-etc.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> Anti-fascist call outs would be the relevant thread:
> 
> http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/anti-fascist-call-outs-activities-etc.


or dare i say start a new thread about it like albionism has done?


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 5, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> or dare i say start a new thread about it like albionism has done?



Or do all three.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> Or do all three.


which is the urban way


----------



## Nigel (Oct 31, 2015)

How did this go down @ Anarchist Bookfair ?
Heard there were some colourful debates around the book and other issues too ?



framed said:


> *Militant Anti-Fascism*
> A Hundred Years of Resistance
> 
> M. Testa (Author)
> ...


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 1, 2015)

Some AFN members were crying that they didn't feature in the book, despite the book being completed in 2012. And their criticisms seemed to be more about the blog, and not the book which the discussion pertained to. And that you can't write about something if you "weren't there", which fucks up history and journalism I guess.


----------



## Red Sky (Nov 1, 2015)

No-one was crying. The book was completed in 2013 and mentions the AFN on the cover.


----------



## Red Sky (Nov 1, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> Some AFN members were crying that they didn't feature in the book, despite the book being completed in 2012. And their criticisms seemed to be more about the blog, and not the book which the discussion pertained to. And that you can't write about something if you "weren't there", which fucks up history and journalism I guess.



The presentation didn't limit itself to the book and seemed to be about Mal's view of far-right activity and anti-fascism to the present day so the discussion was far broader than you're suggesting.


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 1, 2015)

Red Sky said:


> The presentation didn't limit itself to the book and seemed to be about Mal's view of far-right activity and anti-fascism to the present day so the discussion was far broader than you're suggesting.



To be fair I was fashionably late. So I missed a fair bit but caught the wittering from the Asian woman and the guy sitting at the back.


----------



## Red Sky (Nov 1, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> To be fair I was fashionably late. So I missed a fair bit but caught the wittering from the Asian woman and the guy sitting at the back.



Yeah - we wouldn't want any Asian women wittering on during a discussion about anti-racist struggles would we? Leave it to the big boys I reckon.


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 1, 2015)

Red Sky said:


> Yeah - we wouldn't want any Asian women wittering on during a discussion about anti-racist struggles would we? Leave it to the big boys I reckon.



I thought it was a bit rude and uncomradely but of course everyone should be allowed have their say.


----------



## Red Sky (Nov 1, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> I thought it was a bit rude and uncomradely but of course everyone should be allowed have their say.



While dismissing it as "wittering"?


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 1, 2015)

Red Sky said:


> While dismissing it as "wittering"?



I went to see the talk not people airing grievances. I was a bit hung over so it probably sounded more grating than it actually was.


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 1, 2015)

Anyway, I was just using her as a point of reference to head the "you weren't there" brigade off at the pass.


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## Red Sky (Nov 1, 2015)

I've actually had this conversation with Mal - I'm quite possibly the 'bloke at the back' by the way although there were a couple of others near me who chipped in.


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 1, 2015)

Red Sky said:


> I've actually had this conversation with Mal - I'm quite possibly the 'bloke at the back' by the way although there were a couple of others near me who chipped in.



Shame you didn't hang about. A few of us went for some beers after.


----------



## Red Sky (Nov 1, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> Shame you didn't hang about. A few of us went for some beers after.



I  was outside the talk - bit early for me.


----------



## Nigel (Nov 1, 2015)

So it was all good friendly banter then !
lol


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Nov 3, 2015)

This is interesting on the history of "no platform":
'By whatever means necessary': The origins of the 'no platform' policy

(ties it in at the end with the so-called "no platforming" of Germaine Greer)


----------



## Red About Town (Nov 24, 2015)

Not sure where to post this... However, saw this on the Red Action Facebook page today and thought it made for some interesting reading. Recent speech from an AFA founder.

Why The Working Class Must Come In From The Cold


----------



## Red Sky (Nov 24, 2015)

Red About Town said:


> Not sure where to post this... However, saw this on the Red Action Facebook page today and thought it made for some interesting reading. Recent speech from an AFA founder.
> 
> Why The Working Class Must Come In From The Cold



He seems to be saying that immigration is the issue as far as the working class is concerned. He also seems to be saying that nobody on the left is willing to talk about it - whereas in fact the Labour party went to the polls on a specifically anti-immigrant ticket ( remember that mug?).


----------



## cantsin (Nov 24, 2015)

Red About Town said:


> Not sure where to post this... However, saw this on the Red Action Facebook page today and thought it made for some interesting reading. Recent speech from an AFA founder.
> 
> Why The Working Class Must Come In From The Cold



as always,well made arguments from JoR .

Binned rest of response , as looked like defence of mass immigration in market lead economies, which it wasn't meant to be - but free markets without free movement of people are a non starter as well .


----------



## Red Storm (Nov 25, 2015)

Red About Town said:


> Not sure where to post this... However, saw this on the Red Action Facebook page today and thought it made for some interesting reading. Recent speech from an AFA founder.
> 
> Why The Working Class Must Come In From The Cold



Fucking brilliant


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 25, 2015)

Red Sky said:


> He seems to be saying that immigration is the issue as far as the working class is concerned. He also seems to be saying that nobody on the left is willing to talk about it - whereas in fact the Labour party went to the polls on a specifically anti-immigrant ticket ( remember that mug?).



Not how I read it. What is being argued is that it is an issue of central concern in many working class communities but their views are either ignored or dismissed as racist by liberals who've made up their mind as to what is best. 

As for the Labour Party their position is perfectly summed up by the quote from Jeremy referenced in the article.


----------



## Red Sky (Nov 25, 2015)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Not how I read it. What is being argued is that it is an issue of central concern in many working class communities but their views are either ignored or dismissed as racist by liberals who've made up their mind as to what is best.
> 
> As for the Labour Party their position is perfectly summed up by the quote from Jeremy referenced in the article.



What's his own solution to immigration?


----------



## The39thStep (Nov 25, 2015)

Red About Town said:


> Not sure where to post this... However, saw this on the Red Action Facebook page today and thought it made for some interesting reading. Recent speech from an AFA founder.
> 
> Why The Working Class Must Come In From The Cold



Good thought provoking contribution


----------



## The39thStep (Nov 25, 2015)

Red Sky said:


> What's his own solution to immigration?



Telling the working class to get over it


----------



## Red Sky (Nov 26, 2015)

The39thStep said:


> Telling the working class to get over it



Seriously though - he's building a straw man with this idea mainstream consensus about the benefits of immigration. All major parties made immigration control a major plank in their manifestos earlier this year and the majority of the press runs constant migrant scare stories. What's a few liberals in academia compared to that?

I was wondering what his working class solution to the issue would be - what platform he thinks we should be campaigning on - an Australian points system, more detention centres, enhanced powers for the UKBA?


----------



## The39thStep (Nov 27, 2015)

one of the tests for your straw man thesis will be how many votes UKIP take in white working class areas in the Oldham by-election next week.


----------



## Red Sky (Nov 28, 2015)

The39thStep said:


> one of the tests for your straw man thesis will be how many votes UKIP take in white working class areas in the Oldham by-election next week.



Not really - I'm not arguing that immigration isn't a concern for working class communities - I'm arguing against the proposition that it's the issue that dare not speak it's name on the left.


----------



## framed (Nov 30, 2015)

Red Sky said:


> Not really - I'm not arguing that immigration isn't a concern for working class communities - I'm arguing against the proposition that it's the issue that dare not speak it's name on the left.



The point that was being made is not that immigration isn't discussed on the left, but that the discussion is a deliberately limited one and that it is generally _verboten_ on the left to question the policy of 'no borders' and unrestrained mass immigration.

The speaker has stressed that his contribution at the Connolly Conference represents a fraction of a much larger research piece he has been working on in relation to the issue of immigration, refugees and open borders. In the open discussion at the conference he also stated that he had not reached conclusions yet, but was in the process of deconstructing some of the arguments around these issues in order that rational debate might ensue.

There were no references to points systems, Australian detention centres, or any other method of immigration control. As stated, the speaker offered no political solutions, merely a statement of fact that what we have now is a policy of unrestrained immigration that is backed by everyone from the Tories to the far left. It's a cross-class consensus that misses out the most important class of all, the working class.

At the last count his longer thesis on the subject had reached around 11,000 words and is, as yet, unfinished and unpublished.

The word count on that speech is 2863.

I'm content to wait for publication of the finished work.

Anyway, I only came here because I had an email notification about a 'new conversation' with Malatesta, but this caught my attention also and I thought I'd clarify some points while I was here.

Cheers.


----------



## Fedayn (Dec 1, 2015)

To be fair to the speaker he isn't trying to set out a 'solution' but simply pointing out how the issue has washed over working class communities and ironically how the working-class cincerns are being whitewashed by a less financially stricken/middle class Left. 
It follows on well from a speech he made at last years conference.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Dec 2, 2015)

Related to the discussion here are two items from the Guardian revealing the deepening disconnect between Labour and the working class and also the growing dependence on ethnic block votes to prop their vote up:

In Oldham, Jeremy Corbyn is just another face of ‘poncified’ Labour | Rafael Behr

Why Labour fears the worst in Oldham West | Ian Warren


----------



## cantsin (Dec 2, 2015)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Related to the discussion here are two items from the Guardian revealing the deepening disconnect between Labour and the working class and also the growing dependence on ethnic block votes to prop their vote up:
> 
> In Oldham, Jeremy Corbyn is just another face of ‘poncified’ Labour | Rafael Behr
> 
> Why Labour fears the worst in Oldham West | Ian Warren



reading frothing Blairites suddenly get all concerned for the 'blue collar workers ' when they see class divisions open up around Corbyn is just fucking nauseating.
Jokes.

have a read of Ian Warren's twitter for details - thinks he's a bit of a chap this one .

@election_data (@election_data) on Twitter


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 2, 2015)

framed said:


> Anyway, I only came here because I had an email notification about a 'new conversation' with Malatesta, but this caught my attention also and I thought I'd clarify some points while I was here.
> 
> Cheers.


drop by more often


----------



## Red Sky (Dec 5, 2015)

The39thStep said:


> one of the tests for your straw man thesis will be how many votes UKIP take in white working class areas in the Oldham by-election next week.




....and ?


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 6, 2015)

Red Sky said:


> ....and ?



Shouldn't working class areas be the domain of the left rather than the right?


----------



## Red Sky (Dec 7, 2015)

The39thStep said:


> Shouldn't working class areas be the domain of the left rather than the right?



We'd certainly hope so but is that not what you saw happening in Oldham?


----------



## Red Sky (Dec 7, 2015)

framed said:


> The point that was being made is not that immigration isn't discussed on the left, but that the discussion is a deliberately limited one and that it is generally _verboten_ on the left to question the policy of 'no borders' and unrestrained mass immigration.



This depends on how you define 'the left' of course but if we accept that the Labour Party are in it - then certainly they haven't considered it _verboten _to discuss or in fact implement strong border controls and restrained immigration. It would be useful if the speaker had differentiated between migration as a result of a free labour market within Europe and migration from outside Europe.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 8, 2015)

Red Sky said:


> We'd certainly hope so but is that not what you saw happening in Oldham?



Lol.


----------



## newbie (Dec 8, 2015)

The39thStep said:


> Shouldn't working class areas be the domain of the left rather than the right?



should they? why?


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Dec 8, 2015)

newbie said:


> should they? why?



If you think that any genuine left wing politics has to be pro-working class, then it should follow that working class areas should be supportive of, indeed engaged with such politics.

I am aware that there are ways of imagining left wing politics which don't depend on such an understanding of class...but I don't like them.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## belboid (Dec 8, 2015)

The39thStep said:


> Shouldn't working class areas be the domain of the left rather than the right?


how does that relate to your question?  I can see why you are so keen to avoid really responding to the point, as the result was pretty much the opposite of what you were expecting, but you could make a bit of an effort


----------



## newbie (Dec 8, 2015)

Louis MacNeice said:


> If you think that any genuine left wing politics has to be pro-working class, then it should follow that working class areas should be supportive of, indeed engaged with such politics.
> 
> I am aware that there are ways of imagining left wing politics which don't depend on such an understanding of class...but I don't like them.
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice


no, it doesn't follow, it's just wishful thinking.  _We're on your side because we say we are so you must be on our side._


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Dec 8, 2015)

newbie said:


> no, it doesn't follow, it's just wishful thinking.  _We're on your side because we say we are so you must be on our side._



I think you've got this completely back to front.

It's not  - or shouldn't be - wishful thinking; it is - or should be - a measure of success. If the working class isn't supporting the politics, isn't engaged with it, then it isn't pro-working class and by my definition isn't left wing.

While there are no guarantees, I would suggest that one of the best safeguards against the back to front position you're describing, is to look for politics coming from the working class, that promotes a class as opposed to a sectional interest.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

p.s. Being a member of the 'technical middle class' I may not be best placed to propose the content of pro-working class politics...what I'm suggesting are ways of ensuring that left politics has working class self emancipation at its heart since the working class is best placed to pursue its own (and ultimately my) best interests.


----------



## newbie (Dec 8, 2015)

Louis MacNeice said:


> I think you've got this completely back to front.
> 
> It's not  - or shouldn't be - wishful thinking; it is - or should be - a measure of success. If the working class isn't supporting the politics, isn't engaged with it, then it isn't pro-working class and by my definition isn't left wing.
> 
> ...



steps said "_Shouldn't working class areas be the domain of the left rather than the right_?".  You're now morphing that into a soggy "_If the working class isn't supporting the politics, isn't engaged with it, then it isn't pro-working class and by my definition isn't left wing._"  Fair enough, you can define success any way you please, but I'll go back to asking The39thStep, should they?


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Dec 8, 2015)

newbie said:


> steps said "_Shouldn't working class areas be the domain of the left rather than the right_?".  You're now morphing that into a soggy "_If the working class isn't supporting the politics, isn't engaged with it, then it isn't pro-working class and by my definition isn't left wing._"  Fair enough, you can define success any way you please, but I'll go back to asking The39thStep, should they?



I don't see any contradiction between the two positions,.

Also I don't think that saying left wing politics has to be pro-working class, and the working class are the best bet at making sure that happens, is 'soggy'.

Or am I reading you wrong?

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## newbie (Dec 8, 2015)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Also I don't think that saying left wing politics has to be pro-working class, and the working class are the best bet at making sure that happens, is 'soggy'.
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice



fair enough.  I have no particular quibble with your political outlook, and called it soggy only because you restated something you've said many times before.  bad choice of word, sorry.

It's the assertion steps made that I'm querying, not what you said.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 8, 2015)

newbie said:


> steps said "_Shouldn't working class areas be the domain of the left rather than the right_?".  You're now morphing that into a soggy "_If the working class isn't supporting the politics, isn't engaged with it, then it isn't pro-working class and by my definition isn't left wing._"  Fair enough, you can define success any way you please, but I'll go back to asking The39thStep, should they?



Watching the football so have to be quick but only too pleased to have a longer conversation about this . 
It's a genuine question as sections of the working class has over the years deserted Labour in droves. I can't think of any examples where that vote has gone to the left of Labour but the last ten years has seen some of that vote go to the far right ie BNP and more recently UKIP. I suppose that opens up yet more questions firstly as to what is the attraction of some of the ideas of the far right amongst some sections of the working class and why isn't the lefts ideas as popular? Secondly if working class areas aren't the domain of the left then where , if anywhere at all, is their domain ?
Any thoughts?


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 8, 2015)

belboid said:


> how does that relate to your question?  I can see why you are so keen to avoid really responding to the point, as the result was pretty much the opposite of what you were expecting, but you could make a bit of an effort


What was pretty much the opposite? Might be helpful , in your keenness , if you actually made an effort to read what I said on the by election thread ie labour first ukip second.
I haven't seen any data on voting by ward from the by election  but what we do know is that the Labour vote held up in areas that were more diverse. I would be surprised if they did as well in Hollingwood and Chadderton as they would have done in say Werneth.


----------



## newbie (Dec 8, 2015)

The39thStep said:


> Secondly if working class areas aren't the domain of the left then where , if anywhere at all, is their domain ?
> Any thoughts?


why should anywhere be?  There's no entitlement. Each and every one of the people who live in the areas you think of as the natural domain of the left has to be convinced that their self-identified interests, individual or sectional, are secondary to the class and local interests which you insist are paramount.  In 2015 that strikes me as a very tall order, especially if people who llive in 'working class areas' think you want to include us your domain like we're some sort of vassal.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 9, 2015)

newbie said:


> why should anywhere be?  There's no entitlement. Each and every one of the people who live in the areas you think of as the natural domain of the left has to be convinced that their self-identified interests, individual or sectional, are secondary to the class and local interests which you insist are paramount.  In 2015 that strikes me as a very tall order, especially if people who llive in 'working class areas' think you want to include us your domain like we're some sort of vassal.



Watching yet more football . I will have to leave most of your assumptions on one side for the mo.
Who is the us that you mention? Or did you mean  yourself ? 

So given the  situation you describe in 2015 where does that leave the left then in your opinion?


----------



## newbie (Dec 9, 2015)

The39thStep said:


> Watching yet more football . I will have to leave most of your assumptions on one side for the mo.
> Who is the us that you mention? Or did you mean  yourself ?


people who live in what you call 'working class areas'


> So given the  situation you describe in 2015 where does that leave the left then in your opinion?


I suppose it depends on what you mean by 'the left',  If you mean those who've pushed Corbyn to prominence, I somehow doubt they think in terms of domains.  If you mean some group who do think they're entitled to treat people as part of their domain, then nowhere, same as ever.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 9, 2015)

Who are these  people then who have pushed Corbyn to prominence?


----------



## newbie (Dec 9, 2015)

those who voted for him to become leader


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 11, 2015)

newbie said:


> why should anywhere be?  There's no entitlement. Each and every one of the people who live in the areas you think of as the natural domain of the left has to be convinced that their self-identified interests, individual or sectional, are secondary to the class and local interests which you insist are paramount.  In 2015 that strikes me as a very tall order, especially if people who llive in 'working class areas' think you want to include us your domain like we're some sort of vassal.



I think we may have reached a historic moment ,albeit in the eye of the needle world of Urban, where I can agree on something with you. That is there is absolutely no entitlement for the left to take for granted that that the working class should support them. As I said before Labour lost its working class base decades ago. In the past ten years or so it's the far right that have taken the opportunity and filled the vacuum. very often this has been because however unpalatable it has been the far right have offered a solution to some of the issues that people in areas are concerned about and very often they have been the issues for which there has been little or no support for the liberal lefts policies or solutions. Crime, immigration, the EC, multiculturalism have been amongst the fracture points where the left have lost out to the right to the point where the left no longer wants to listen , and in some cases legislates so that they don't have to listen. I have given up counting the number of times when people I have been listening to have said ' I know you are are not allowed to say this but...' 
This lack of empowerment extends to a feeling that other groups are more privileged , that all decisions are made in Brussels , and there is no coincidence that these views are not just obstinate in that they don't go away despite the lefts reassurance that they are not important but grow more and more powerful . At one time the Labour Party consensus was that these ideas would die away simply because the working class would die away.
I know that in previous posts you have been dismissed the gains made by an organised working class ( I seem to recall one post in which you tried to suggest that the car manufacturing industry was effectively shut down by the unions untill someone who had researched that industry put you right) and have a mistrust of communities whether they be based in work, community or otherwise to be inclusive instead wanting yet more top down legislation . However the very absence of an organised working class warts and all means that it is the right wing who become the opposition to the establishment . 
It's been said by other posters but those who want to work with the local working class to make communities better or work conditions better have to earn respect and not take it for granted. One way is to actually ask those communities what the issues are that face them or that they want to improve even if in terms if the top down left they are off the agenda.i don't see how organising in communities with the consent of the community bring you to the conclusion that people are being subjugated into a vassal.
Finally on 'self identified interests' , by which I assume you don't mean hobbies, and them having to be 'secondary to class and local interests '. Right wing motivational theory , mainly driven by American marketing has at its core 'self interest' .Adam Smith espoused self interest as being the basis for the creation of wealth. Self interest amongst the working class, funnily enough in those very sections of the working class who had benefitted from the very organised trade union militancy that you have been so dismissive of, was heralded as why strikes were finished in the 79s and 80s. I remember this being in the grounds that they bought the Sun and went abroad in holiday.I think the 'everybody is just out for themselves' '/just look out for yourself ' / ' I'm alright jack ' ( God that must age me) mentality has been with us for years but that doesn't seem to stop everyday incidents of people sticking together in the face of adversity whether it be flooding in Cumbria, volunteering, to the recent housing campaigns, NHS campaigns etc.
Long post but hope you get the general thrust.


----------



## newbie (Dec 12, 2015)

The39thStep said:


> I think we may have reached a historic moment ,albeit in the eye of the needle world of Urban, where I can agree on something with you.


 You might be surprised at the amount of agreement between us, but that (and the jibes) is as may be.



> That is there is absolutely no entitlement for the left to take for granted that that the working class should support them. As I said before Labour lost its working class base decades ago.


you're hardly the first to observe that, it's an article of faith.  But tbh the labour party w/c base is holding up rather better than any other part of the left- that's not a defence, I'm neither a member nor supporter of labour, but I'd be interested in evidence that there's any significant left of labour w/c base.



> I know that in previous posts you have been dismissed the gains made by an organised working class


a caricature, but I'll accept that I place the emphasis differently to you.  F'rinstance, I'd suggest that for a century or more the building/provident/friendly societies were the strongest and most important organised w/c achievements, and see it as a tragedy that they were willingly- enthusiastically- sold by the w/c for individual rather than collective benefit.


> ( I seem to recall one post in which you tried to suggest that the car manufacturing industry was effectively shut down by the unions until someone who had researched that industry put you right) and have a mistrust of communities whether they be based in work, community or otherwise to be inclusive instead wanting yet more top down legislation . However the very absence of an organised working class warts and all means that it is the right wing who become the opposition to the establishment .


actually no, but since you mention the car industry I'll say that i grew up in a a stereotypical w/c environment- everyone on the estate worked at the factory, everyone had (has) the same landlord.  What's pertinent, because it plays into your theory of domains, is that they've voted (and thought) tory throughout. They didn't oppose the establishment, weren't remotely militant during the 60s & 70s when Cowley & Longbridge were leading the way, not even in the 80s when the factory closed and their pensions were stolen by venture capitalists.  So when you tell me that communities like that are the natural domain of the left (or indeed, prey to the far right) I'm somewhat skeptical.  Some other communities have obviously taken a different attitude, that's clear, but the w/c is far wider than the ones who agree with you.



> One way is to actually ask those communities what the issues are that face them or that they want to improve even if in terms if the top down left they are off the agenda.


aye, but what happens when you ask the questions and they say they're personally aspirational, they want low taxes, small state with fewer regulations, want to restrict benefits, and, perhaps crucially, they support the establishment... not far right, probably not even ukip right, but not on the same page as the left (whatever that is, however you see it now in 2015 post the election of Corbyn).



> I think the 'everybody is just out for themselves' '/just look out for yourself ' / ' I'm alright jack ' ( God that must age me) mentality has been with us for years but that doesn't seem to stop everyday incidents of people sticking together in the face of adversity whether it be flooding in Cumbria, volunteering, to the recent housing campaigns, NHS campaigns etc.


no of course it doesn't, people are communal, neighbourly creatures. The claim that 'there's no such thing as society' is clearly nonsense.  But to concentrate only on examples of communalism is to deny that over the years the w/c has taken to personal wealth creation and asset accumulation at the same time as it has voted, often enthusiastically, for neo-libs to dismantle collective ownership and r_elease aspirational entrepreneurship_ (or whatever it is they say).

No doubt I'm the only one here to know compromised w/c people, who've used their savings, equity release, relatively low social housing rent, inheritance, whatever to buy holiday homes, btl's, stocks & shares, to start businesses...  I'm sure the rest of you only know those who've never accumulated any wealth and never will, and are shocked when I observe that significant numbers of stakeholders exist in 'w/c areas'.   It's reasonable to ask whether the left wants those people to become part of its domain, since it simply dismisses their views, what it is they want, how they see self-interest. Perhaps because it starts from the assumption that w/c people are naturally and necessarily in "opposition to the establishment".  I am, most urbanites are, but we're oddballs.  

Yet left activists tend to be rather purist and judgemental about such things, uncompromising about personal language and behaviour, hectoring those who fall short and, ultimately, distancing themselves from the ambiguities of modern lives. Discounting the views of those who don't fit the theory doesn't help, nor does writing off the wrong sort of w/c people as _middle class_. 

So going back to your points about asking what people want, how does the left deal with people who are settled in the tory or nulab, establishment domain?  That's probably the majority of the w/c. 



> Long post but hope you get the general thrust.


oh yes, and long reply, and I'd be grateful if it could be read as observations rather than advocacy.  eg I'm not saying people should buy shares or become btl landlords, I'm saying they do and asking how to deal with that.


----------



## Red About Town (Jan 2, 2016)

Talman from TAL FANZINE writes:

"I've been looking for this C4 Documentary from 1990 for years. It was shortly after this that AFA and Red Action were founded in Scotland. After meeting them at the anti-internment march in Belfast in 1989 and at the Manchester Martyrs Commemorations (1988 and 1989) we made contact with Red Action members in London and Manchester, but it took another year before we properly set up a branch of RA in Glasgow. The demonstration featured was our f...irst direct confrontation with the BNP in December 1989 (the documentary was broadcast in early 1990) which took place at Haymarket Station in Edinburgh. There had been local skirmishes before that, but nothing on a large scale. It was frustration at being 'controlled' and held back by the conservative left (and Searchlight) that led us to AFA. The real war against the BNP in Scotland started in earnest after this documentary was broadcast and the AFA strategy was implemented by a handful of activists over the next few years. It was Tyndall's contention in this film that Scotland was 'the area of greatest membership growth' that spurred us on to redress the balance. It's hard to believe that mad auld Harry Mullin was ever given a leading role in the BNP, he is articulate but completely bonkers. Brand, Scott and McMillan got their bruises on the way to be filmed for the documentary - courtesy of our man Kidder being herded by the police into the station foyer with the BNP. The Searchlight M.O. is all over this film, with every nutty fash group in Scotland being over promoted, but a couple of Red Action (Scotland) members make fleeting appearances in it."


----------



## Red About Town (Jan 2, 2016)

After this was posted on various FB pages today, the video has now been made private.


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## framed (Jan 4, 2016)

Red About Town said:


> After this was posted on various FB pages today, the video has now been made private.



I suspect that the YouTube account of 'Caledonian Wolf' is most likely to be the monicker of the now 'veteran' Scottish fascist, Steve Cartwright, who features in the video. Cartwright is a curious creature, at the centre of every Nazi manifestation in Scotland from the late 1980's to the late 1990's. He was not that confident on the street and often shunned confrontation despite many of those around him being 'up for it' with AFA. At one point we suspected that he might even be a Searchlight mole working inside the BNP in Scotland due to his apparent enthusiasm for tactical retreats in the face of the enemy. In the end we put it down to a simple case of cowardice. This might also explain why after publishing the video and the extra hits it's received from sharing it on TAL's and other anti-fascist facebook pages, he's become squeamish and precious about it and made it for 'private' viewing only.

The documentary was broadcast by C4 in early 1990 and the current affairs series was titled 'Scottish Eye' with this programme having the subtitle of 'The Right Connections'. If anyone here can locate another copy of this film it'd be greatly appreciated.


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## framed (Jan 25, 2016)

Red About Town said:


> After this was posted on various FB pages today, the video has now been made private.



Got it, thanks to the comrade in Ireland who tracked it down.

*Scottish Eye - The Right Connections*
For more background info, please read the blurb on the you tube page.


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## Red About Town (Jan 25, 2016)

10th anniversary of a Red Action/AFA member.

*KEVIN BURNS - 1968-2006 - RIP

26th Feb '06
*
It was with great sadness that I learned of the recent untimely death of my friend and comrade Kevin Burns at the age of 37. Kevin was a former member of Anti-Fascist Action and Red Action in Glasgow and a keen supporter of the republican cause and Celtic FC.

I first met Kevin after he was arrested during an AFA organised mobilisation against the BNP's Scottish Rally in December 1991. It was shortly after this event that Kevin decided to join AFA and subsequently Red Action. He was involved in all of the organisation's major actions against fascists like the BNP and NF, as well as being an enthusiastic contributor to everything that we organised; from organising meetings and stewarding gigs and marches to sticker runs and sales at Celtic Park of the TÁL, Red Action and Fighting Talk magazines.

Originally from the Hamilton area of Lanarkshire Kevin had moved to Glasgow after attending Stirling University. A working class lad, his instincts while at university and after leaving were always sceptical towards the middle-class left and it is testament to the working class composition and politics of Red Action that a young lad like Kevin decided to join us at the time he did. He was courted by many on the left but it was the uncompromising anti-fascist and pro-republican politics of Red Action that he most readily identified with

He was small and wirey in stature but was nonetheless 'game' for the physical struggle against the fascists giveng good accounts of himself in any encounters with the far-right. He also had a sharp political mind capable of quick analysis and tactical interpretation of events, This was accompanied by a dry sense of humour and a natural exuberance for life that was surprising considering the amount of time he spent listening to the songs of Nick Cave!

I remember one occasion when we had been out on a pub crawl around the bars in the Gallowgate with a visiting fan of St Pauli. On the way home we were discussing with our German friend what were the most appropriate forms of action to take against fascists. As me and the visitor continued to discuss the pros and cons, we passed a pub in the city centre where the local BNP were known to drink, Kevin just picked up a half-brick and launched it through the pub window... "That's the best way to deal with that scum and anywhere that they're made welcome," he said.

Whilst a member of Red Action, Kevin was also a frequent visitor to the north of Ireland and whilst there he took part in organised visits to republican prisoners-of-war in the H-Blocks of Long Kesh. He found inspiration in their struggle and identified especially with street-level politics of Sinn Féin in local communities like West Belfast.

In recent years Kevin had dropped out of political activity, but his instincts remained the same. he was always on the side of the working class and the oppressed.

I had lost contact with him since moving away from Scotland and it is with great regret that I did not see him or have the opportunity to at least talk to him or socialise with him once again before he so sadly passed away.

He was one of the good guys and he will be greatly missed by his family and his many friends.

He will remain forever in our thoughts.

*Kevin Burns - 1968-2006 - RIP*


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## DaveCinzano (Jan 25, 2016)

framed said:


> Got it, thanks to the comrade in Ireland who tracked it down.
> 
> *Scottish Eye - The Right Connections*
> For more background info, please read the blurb on the you tube page.



Cheers - have backed this up as a matter of urgency


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## Sue (Jan 25, 2016)

Very interesting, thanks for posting that. League of St Andrew and Scottish Ku Klux Klan though, WTF?


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## LiamO (Jan 25, 2016)

framed said:


> Got it, thanks to the comrade in Ireland who tracked it down.
> 
> *Scottish Eye - The Right Connections*
> For more background info, please read the blurb on the you tube page.




WAs that yer first time on the telly @ 12.50ish framed?

Can't imagine the 'Comrade' referring repeatedly to 'The North of Ireland' progressed very far through the ranks.


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## framed (Jan 25, 2016)

LiamO said:


> WAs that yer first time on the telly @ 12.50ish framed?
> 
> Can't imagine the 'Comrade' referring repeatedly to 'The North of Ireland' progressed very far through the ranks.



Not my first time on the telly, but first TV appearance on anti-fascist activity. 

Aye, the auld fella was Harry Mullin, he'd gone through Communism, Trotskyism and Scottish Republicanism, before he found his way into the BNP... 'the north of Ireland' references were obviously a hangover from his days on the left.


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## Patteran (Jan 25, 2016)

framed said:


> Not my first time on the telly, but first TV appearance on political activity.
> 
> Aye, the auld fella was Harry Mullin, he'd gone through Communism, Trotskyism and Scottish Republicanism, before he found his way into the BNP... 'the north of Ireland' references were obviously a hangover from his days on the left.



I was just trying to remember his name - used to write long, irrational letters to the BM Box.


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## framed (Jan 26, 2016)

Patteran said:


> I was just trying to remember his name - used to write long, irrational letters to the BM Box.



He used to write long irrational letters to the Glasgow box number as well, totally bats! He'd spend half the letter trying to recruit us 'good working class stock' to the BNP, then the other half threatening all sorts of revenge against us for various dirty deeds done in the dark of night. He even addressed one letter to me personally after that 'Charge of the New Red Brigades' article appeared in one of the broadsheets.


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## Patteran (Jan 26, 2016)

framed said:


> He used to write long irrational letters to the Glasgow box number as well, totally bats! He'd spend half the letter trying to recruit us 'good working class stock' to the BNP, then the other half threatening all sorts of revenge against us for various dirty deeds done in the dark of night. He even addressed one letter to me personally after that 'Charge of the New Red Brigades' article appeared in one of the broadsheets.



Yep, dark references to shadowy figures following him down Sauchiehall Street, & always efforts to both threaten & engage. Still, it was better than the usual deliveries from the far right - bonehead shit in a jiffy bag. Memoirs of a Revolutionary Postroom Boy.


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## DaveCinzano (Jan 26, 2016)

Patteran said:


> Yep, dark references to shadowy figures following him down Sauchiehall Street, & always efforts to both threaten & engage. Still, it was better than the usual deliveries from the far right - bonehead shit in a jiffy bag. Memoirs of a Revolutionary Postroom Boy.


Were you ever able to hypothesise about a master race diet?


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## Patteran (Jan 26, 2016)

Fash n chips. Donner & Blitzen kebabs. Etc etc.


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## Fallon (Feb 28, 2016)

Red Action get a name check in this.

Benjamin Zephaniah on fighting the far right: ‘If we did nothing we would be killed on the streets’


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## framed (Feb 28, 2016)

Fallon said:


> Red Action get a name check in this.
> 
> Benjamin Zephaniah on fighting the far right: ‘If we did nothing we would be killed on the streets’



"In London, we had a group called Red Action, a bunch of leftwingers who operated like an alternative police force. They would come to clubs and gatherings and make sure that the event was not invaded and that people got home safely. There were no mobile phones so they would communicate with each other using walkie-talkies, and they would react to our distress calls much quicker than Her Majesty’s police force..."

"...I have to agree with those who claim that the political elite has neglected the white working class. There are poor white people living in ghettoes all over Britain, they live in terrible housing conditions, their traditional industries have been destroyed, their schools are being run down, and governments of all colours have been ignoring their cries for help for decades. It’s true. What is also true is that there are poor black people living in ghettoes all over Britain. They also live in terrible housing conditions, their traditional industries have been destroyed, their schools are being run down, and governments have been ignoring their cries for help since the creation of the slave trade and the building of the British empire.

"It is precisely for these reasons that I have always thought that these poor white people and these poor black people should unite and confront the people who oversee all of our miseries. It is classic divide and rule. The biggest fear of all of the mainstream politicians is that we all reach a point where we understand how much we have in common and, instead of turning on ourselves, we turn on them..."


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## framed (Feb 29, 2016)

I can only assume that Benjamin Zephaniah was a witness to Red Action and/or AFA's effective stewarding of events he attended or performed at, which may have prompted the question...


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## Red About Town (Apr 9, 2016)

Good piece on IWCA/anti fascism.

*Is it time to re-visit the strategy of the Independent Working Class Association?*
We’ve been following the series of anti-refugee protests in Dover called by the South East Alliance (SEA) and the response to them from the anti-fascist movement with a certain amount of interest without letting it divert us from our normal remit. To the casual observer, it could seem to them that anti-fascism only manifests itself on the streets in response to provocations from the SEA and a ragbag of other groups on the far right, followed by online point scoring between the two sides as to who actually ‘won’ on the day. Based on the reports we’ve seen about the latest protest in Dover on April 2nd, it would appear that the winners on the day were the cops who seemed to have everything pretty much nailed down.

For the record, we weren’t in Dover on April 2nd. There are a variety of reasons for this…let’s just say, engaging in in this kind of action isn’t really our style. From our days with the Independent Working Class Association (IWCA), we’ve always preferred the strategy of building on grassroots work in the community as an effective means of keeping the far right at bay. Now we’re not saying the IWCA was perfect, far from it. Mistakes were made at a tactical level, notably the focus on electoral politics which ended up taking up too much time and energy that could have been expended on community action. However, we don’t want to dwell on what went wrong but to focus on what worked and to see if there are ways of building on that…

What the IWCA did back in our day and what remains of their local network still does is listen to the concerns of working class people. Listening and acknowledging people’s concerns doesn’t mean agreeing with any reactionary conclusions they may reach. Although it has to be said that from our experience of canvassing when we were in the IWCA, as most people tend to be apolitical, it’s difficult to pin them down to any particular point on the political spectrum as they will be progressive on some issues and reactionary on others. The point is that once you start to listen and take people’s concerns seriously, you will gain their respect and even if you disagree, you have the basis for a constructive dialogue.

What will gain respect is taking action to address issues in the community. As an example, Blackbird Leys IWCA listened to people’s concerns about anti-social behaviour that was turning a local park into a no-go zone. They organised community patrols to deter the minority of anti-social youths causing the problem. At the same time, they challenged the policies of Oxford City Council who they saw as starving youth services in Blackbird Leys of the resources needed to provide an effective service that would enable anti-social youths to see the error of their ways and change their behaviour. Here’s another example – in response to concerns about drug dealing on the estate, Blackbird Leys IWCA organised visible, disciplined patrols of known trouble spots to deter the dealers. In addition, the IWCA has called for a review of the 1971 Misuse of Drugs Act, which introduced the prohibition on buying and selling drugs and the criminalisation of drug users.

What the IWCA did and still do is to take on issues that many sections of the left seem to be acutely uncomfortable with, namely concerns about crime and it’s impact on already impoverished working class areas. Where the IWCA did take on issues such as crime in places such as Blackbird Leys, with it’s analysis and solutions it denied the far right the ground they traditionally exploit and pretty much kept them off the estate. The opposite of this can be seen in Basildon where the long running controversy of the bail hostel situated in the middle of the Felmores estate has never been effectively addressed by the authorities, allowing the National Front in the area to make a concerted effort to own the issue.

Working on the estates, listening to people’s concerns, taking action to deal with them and in the process, building a progressive, pro-working class alternative is a slog. The point is that when it’s done effectively as it has been in Blackbird Leys, it has proved to be an effective way of keeping the far right at bay. Sure, it doesn’t have the excitement that a confrontation on the streets with the far right (and the cops) has but it’s about gaining the space to operate so progressive, pro-working class solutions can be developed and implemented. If we are serious about taking on the far right, we have to be serious about a grassroots presence in working class areas that offers solutions to people’s problems, empowers them to act and denies the far right the space they need to build support.

Is it time to re-visit the strategy of the Independent Working Class Association?


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## butchersapron (Apr 9, 2016)

Fuck me.


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## Red Sky (Apr 9, 2016)

Red About Town said:


> Good piece on IWCA/anti fascism.
> 
> *Is it time to re-visit the strategy of the Independent Working Class Association?*
> We’ve been following the series of anti-refugee protests in Dover called by the South East Alliance (SEA) and the response to them from the anti-fascist movement with a certain amount of interest without letting it divert us from our normal remit. To the casual observer, it could seem to them that anti-fascism only manifests itself on the streets in response to provocations from the SEA and a ragbag of other groups on the far right, followed by online point scoring between the two sides as to who actually ‘won’ on the day. Based on the reports we’ve seen about the latest protest in Dover on April 2nd, it would appear that the winners on the day were the cops who seemed to have everything pretty much nailed down.
> ...



Nobody involved in anti-fascism is stopping anything like this from happening. For a struggle with as broad a remit as you're suggesting though it seems a shame to hang it off the rather limiting peg of 'anti-fascism'.


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## butchersapron (Apr 9, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> Nobody involved in anti-fascism is stopping anything like this from happening. For a struggle with as broad a remit as you're suggesting though it seems a shame to hang it off the rather limiting peg of 'anti-fascism'.


Stopping? Why aren't you _doing it?
_
Your distance from such concerns is noted. The gap you have between anti-fascism and other stuff. Get a tattoo.


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## Red Sky (Apr 9, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Stopping? Why aren't you _doing it?
> _
> Your distance from such concerns is noted.



No doubt I'm exactly the kind of middle class parachuting adventurist that has been preventing the glorious revolution all these years.


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## butchersapron (Apr 9, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> No doubt I'm exactly the kind of middle class parachuting adventurist that has been preventing the glorious revolution all these years.


Defensive shit scared reply to a serious political question. This, this reply, is part of the problem.


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## Red Sky (Apr 9, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Defensive shit scared reply to a serious political question. This, this reply, is part of the problem.



Shit scared ? Of you?


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## butchersapron (Apr 9, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> Shit scared ? Of you?


Of having to say something in detail -  something that outlines your thinking. Not me. But people like me will have a look. If you do it. Doing it and the reception.


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## Red Sky (Apr 9, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Of having to say something in detail -  something that outlines your thinking. Not me. But people like me will have a look. If you do it. Doing it and the reception.



Gibberish


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## butchersapron (Apr 9, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> Gibberish


It's not really is it?  Say something, in detail.


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## Red Sky (Apr 9, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> It's not really is it?  Say something, in detail.



Why don't you step out of your reading groups and do something - in detail?


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## butchersapron (Apr 9, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> Why don't you step out of your reading groups and do something - in detail?


Can't do it can you? 

Why are you doing what you're doing. Basics.


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## Red Sky (Apr 9, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Can't do it can you?
> 
> Why are you doing what you're doing. Basics.



So how's your political project on the estates going? Any thoughts or praxis to share with us after 25 years?


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## butchersapron (Apr 9, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> So how's your political project on the estates going? Any thoughts or praxis to share with us after 25 years?


All the lessons must be junked. Tell us more though. Have you anything beyond militant anti-fascism?


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## Red Sky (Apr 9, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> . Have you anything beyond militant anti-fascism?



No..just a facemask and a well thumbed pack of Tarot cards.....


WHY DO WE NEED A MILITANT ANTI-FASCIST MOVEMENT?


Anti-fascism is fundamentally a rear-guard action, fascism and ultra-nationalism rear their heads where the left has failed. In a world where the majority are born into poverty or are asked to accept ever larger doses of 'austerity' a global elite grows stratospherically wealthy, with no borders or limits on their greed. In the UK we see the aggressive privatisation of public services, the introduction of workfare and the slashing of benefits. There is a concerted effort by a wealthy elite to reverse all the gains made by an organised working class in the last sixty years. Swathes of the population have no representation in mainstream politics.



Inevitably this makes people angry. The status quo is indefensible. The fascist's answer to this is to scapegoat immigrants and outsiders. Their position is just an echo of the agenda of those wielding real power. Watch as David Cameron introduces the most vicious attack on the rights of working people for a generation one day and the next announces that “Islamic extremism” is the greatest challenge we face as a nation. The message that immigration is the main problem facing society is rammed home daily by a handful of billionaire newspaper owners. Watch how the leadership of the far-right are invited onto Newsnight to express the views of the “white working class”.



This has created a reservoir of support for far-right politics, as witnessed by 4.5 million votes for UKIP at the last election. UKIP have hoovered up the BNPs electoral base and enlarged it. Where the BNP had an outline of what their economic and social policies were (the classic fascist mix of aggressive nationalism combined with socialistic economic policy), UKIP are far more nebulous – nobody really knows where they stand on the privatisation of the NHS for example, their appeal to the southern blue-blazer golf club set sits uneasily alongside their base among a northern white working class. It is not clear how well placed they are to fill the vacuum left by the retreat of Labour. The BNP itself has collapsed with the expulsion of Nick Griffin, their most successful leader, marking their march into oblivion.



Back in 1992 following sustained pressure from militant anti-fascists, the BNP announced a change in direction. Nick Griffin's announced that there would be “no more marches, no more punch-ups” and re-orientated the BNP in an electoral direction. Following this change of tack there was a virtual cessation of far-right street activity in the U.K. Under a hundred National Front members marching in Dover was a major event in the anti-fascist calendar.



That all changed in 2009 with the advent of the English Defence League. Cut from a different cloth than previous nationalist street movements, they were a single issue right wing campaign. They effectively attempted to import the tactics of the Orange March to mainland UK. The EDL are and were an online phenomenon, they don't aim for day to day 'control of the streets' but more the creation of a collective 'common sense', aided and abetted by the mainstream media. There were no public meetings or attempts to leaflet in small groups, let alone stand for election. As a single issue campaign there was never any attempt to outline any kind of social or economic ideas. Suddenly there were almost monthly manifestations of hundreds if not thousands of ultra-nationalists somewhere in the country.



Clearly the EDL had succeeded in mobilising a lot of angry people. Their propaganda tapped into the 'clash of civilisations' narrative pushed by the state due to the UK's involvement in Middle Eastern wars. It has been argued that they are and were a modern day “King & Country” mob. Demonstrations were specifically targetted at towns with large Muslim populations with the aim being a loud re-assertion of English values against those of the supposed alien invader. Many must have found attendance at an EDL demo an empowering experience.



The success of the EDL began to fuel a rise in Islamophobic attacks. It also, and this is of crucial importance, saw the beginning of attacks on the left – meetings disrupted, stalls attacked, known activists targeted at home and their places of work.



For the next five years autonomous groups of anti-fascists, generally of anarchist or leftist persuasion together with the more mainstream Socialist Worker Party backed Unite against Fascism (UAF) attempted to counter-act these demos. Where we were strong as a movement, i.e in towns with a large sub-cultural population e.g Brighton or Bristol or where the local community was able to muster numbers e.g Walthamstow, Tower Hamlets or Bradford the EDL were successfully confronted. A successful outcome for anti-fascists would be the EDL confined inside a police cordon besieged by  anti-fascists. In many towns however the EDL demonstration outnumbered anti-fascist counter demonstrators.



In the last two years the EDL have been shrinking, although it is always worth remembering that such a loose organisation has the capacity to regenerate alarmingly quickly under the right circumstances. What has happened though is that they have paved the way for other groups. A gaggle of far-right groups have gained confidence from the EDL experience. Some, like Britain First have characterised themselves as UKIPs street army, others like National Action and the National Front are of more obvious neo-Nazi bent. There are many 'footsoldiers' who flit between the two poles. All of them gain confidence whenever they able to mobilise on the streets.



The rise of the EDL showed that there is the capacity for a large scale right wing street movement in the U.K. At the moment the far-right is in disarray but is still sustaining a level of activity that would have been shocking ten years ago. This is not alarmist – tackled properly they can be successfully confronted.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 9, 2016)

You wrote this?


----------



## Red Sky (Apr 9, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> You wrote this?



That'd be telling


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 9, 2016)

I'd run away from ownership too - my god the state is what the /c does. My god.


----------



## Red Sky (Apr 9, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> I'd run away from ownership too - my god the state is what the /c does. My god.



Thing is - people who've met you in real life say you're a bit of a wallflower. Does being like this on here help you vent?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 9, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> Thing is - people who've met you in real life say you're a bit of a wallflower. Does being like this on here help you vent?


Fan-tas-tique.

I suppose i am a quiet person.


----------



## Red Sky (Apr 9, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Fan-tas-tique.
> 
> I suppose i am a quiet person.



So what is gained for the left or anti-fascism by your attitude on here? Whether I wrote the above or not - is it's basic thrust wrong? Do we write to appeal to the man or woman in the street or do we write in a kind of guardedly approved marxist jargon  to avoid being pulled to pieces by the self appointed theologians of the movement?


----------



## mk12 (Apr 9, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> So what is gained for the left or anti-fascism by your attitude on here. Whether I wrote the above or not - is it's basic thrust wrong? Do we write to appeal to the man or woman in the street or do we write in a kind of guardedly approved marxist jargon  to avoid being pulled to pieces by the self appointed theologians of the movement?


What is the basic thrust? Loads of people are angry, they vote for UKIP, they incorrectly blame immigrants for their problems, the far right exploit this...

...but you offer no potential solutions.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 9, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> So what is gained for the left or anti-fascism by your attitude on here. Whether I wrote the above or not - is it's basic thrust wrong? Do we write to appeal to the man or woman in the street or do we write in a kind of guardedly approved marxist jargon  to avoid being pulled to pieces by the self appointed theologians of the movement?


Am i talking to someone who looks to out people or not? How can any conversation now happen?


----------



## Red Sky (Apr 9, 2016)

mk12 said:


> What is the basic thrust? Loads of people are angry, they vote for UKIP, they incorrectly blame immigrants for their problems, the far right exploit this...
> 
> ...but you offer no potential solutions.



It was meant as an attempt to get people out to confront the fash and site anti-fascism within the context of class struggle. Only a cult leader has a single over-arching explanation for all humanity's problems.


----------



## Red Sky (Apr 9, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Am i talking to someone who looks to out people or not? How can any conversation now happen?



I'm not going to out you - don't panic.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 9, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> I'm not going to out you - don't panic.


Go for it, someone who uses the threat of it = double cool


----------



## Red Sky (Apr 9, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Go for it, someone who uses the threat of it = double cool



Didn't even threaten it. I was told a couple of years ago that's all.


----------



## Red Sky (Apr 9, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Go for it, someone who uses the threat of it = double cool



You even gave your first name away on the Pie&Mash squad's Facebook page telling them they "wouldn't last five minutes on Urban 75"  (whatever that means).


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 9, 2016)

I was told *a *couple of years ago that's all


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 9, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> You even gave your first name away on the Pie&Mash squad's page telling them they "wouldn't last five minutes on Urban 75"  whatever that means.


Wow, double fantastic. You've been had.


----------



## Red Sky (Apr 9, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Wow, double fantastic. You've been had.



That wasn't you? An imposter?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 9, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> That wasn't you? An imposter?


It's not me no. It's a sad teacher that i fell out with and now he does this.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 9, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> That wasn't you? An imposter?


There is a person who goes around pretending to be me -  it's to do with all sorts of other stuff. I can't stop them and i'me stuck with only being able to read rather than post on many places. This will be repacked and used as a post under my name somewhere.


----------



## Athos (Apr 9, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> It's not me no. It's a sad teacher that i fell out with and now he does this.



Ern?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 9, 2016)

Athos said:


> Ern?



<mod: no, we can't do this kind of thing>


----------



## Athos (Apr 9, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Yes.



Teachers can't be as busy as they always claim, if he has time for that shit.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 9, 2016)

Athos said:


> Teachers can't be as busy as they always claim, if he has time for that shit.


The boss can.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Apr 9, 2016)

Red About Town said:


> Good piece on IWCA/anti fascism.
> 
> *Is it time to re-visit the strategy of the Independent Working Class Association?*
> We’ve been following the series of anti-refugee protests in Dover called by the South East Alliance (SEA) and the response to them from the anti-fascist movement with a certain amount of interest without letting it divert us from our normal remit. To the casual observer, it could seem to them that anti-fascism only manifests itself on the streets in response to provocations from the SEA and a ragbag of other groups on the far right, followed by online point scoring between the two sides as to who actually ‘won’ on the day. Based on the reports we’ve seen about the latest protest in Dover on April 2nd, it would appear that the winners on the day were the cops who seemed to have everything pretty much nailed down.
> ...



"_Mistakes were made at a tactical level, notably the focus on electoral politics which ended taking up too much time and energy that could have been expended on community action." _

It is true that standing for elections takes up time and energy especially when the mainstream opposition collude in order to deny radical upstarts an electoral bridgehead (the strategy adopted against the BNP was later used against the IWCA for example).

At the same time putting up candidates is the only real test of how well the strategy is working on the ground.

At a basic level to put in the work and fail to stand a candidate means a) the successes will all be claimed by the mainstream opponents (this can happen even when  a a candidate is put up) in a brazen way. Worse, in not standing, the campaigns especially in the eyes of working class voters, can appear in retrospect to be apolitical. Which in turn begs the question as to what it is you are expending all the time and energy for?

Truth is if the IWCA hadn't 'made the mistake' in standing in elections, no one would ever have heard to the IWCA, including the estates where the strategy was being implemented, never mind re-visiting the strategy a couple of decades later.


----------



## Athos (Apr 9, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> The boss can.



Please don't tell me Ern's a Headmaster?!


----------



## Red Sky (Apr 9, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> I'd run away from ownership too - my god the state is what the /c does. My god.



Identity crisis aside - this kind of comment puts me in mind of Lady Bracknell sneering at an upstart for not knowing the difference between the dessert and soup spoons.


----------



## radgiesteve (Apr 9, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> Why don't you step out of your reading groups and do something - in detail?


Not bloody likely LOL


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 9, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> Identity crisis aside - this kind of comment puts me in mind of Lady Bracknell sneering at an upstart for not knowing the difference between the dessert and soup spoons.


What?


----------



## Athos (Apr 9, 2016)

You were supposed to reply: 'A Haaaaaaaanbag?'


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 9, 2016)

radgiesteve said:


> Not bloody likely LOL


Big up assad anarchist. You give chav's a bad name.


----------



## radgiesteve (Apr 9, 2016)

Butcher's stands up from his chair: gets vertigo hahaha


----------



## radgiesteve (Apr 9, 2016)

Nato shill


----------



## Red Sky (Apr 9, 2016)

"my god the state is what the /c does. My god" . Try explaining that perhaps.


----------



## DrRingDing (Apr 9, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> I suppose i am a quiet person.


----------



## The39thStep (Apr 9, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> Thing is - people who've met you in real life say you're a bit of a wallflower. Does being like this on here help you vent?



I've met him in real life , not sure what you mean by 'a bit of a wallflower ' ?


----------



## Red Sky (Apr 9, 2016)

The39thStep said:


> I've met him in real life , not sure what you mean by 'a bit of a wallflower ' ?



Just a wild guess.


----------



## The39thStep (Apr 9, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> No..just a facemask and a well thumbed pack of Tarot cards.....
> 
> 
> WHY DO WE NEED A MILITANT ANTI-FASCIST MOVEMENT?
> ...



Not sure what this is offering the ' man and woman in the street' you were saying that you wanted to appeal to?


----------



## Red Sky (Apr 9, 2016)

The39thStep said:


> Not sure what this is offering the ' man and woman in the street' you were saying that you wanted to appeal to?



Just trying to explain why a anti-fascist movement is needed at all. Trying to avoid jargon. It's really aimed at people who are broadly affiliated to the left or 'progressive' movements in the first place.  I'm not saying that anti-fascism (or fascism) are going to be anyone's first point of contact if you were cold-calling strangers. 

It's actually the draft text of a leaflet from two years ago that happened to be sitting around when butchersapron challenged me.


----------



## framed (Apr 10, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> Just a wild guess.



I've met him too and you are well wide of the mark.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 11, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> It's really aimed at people who are broadly affiliated to the left or 'progressive' movements in the first place.  I'm not saying that anti-fascism (or fascism) are going to be anyone's first point of contact if you were cold-calling strangers.



So not aimed at the 'man and the women on the street' then but those already politically active?


----------



## Red Sky (Apr 11, 2016)

Smokeandsteam said:


> So not aimed at the 'man and the women on the street' then but those already politically active?



That's what I said innit?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 11, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> That's what I said innit?



You said it was aimed at the 'man and women on the street' initially but later that it was aimed at those already politically actIve which, as you know, isn't the same thing. It


----------



## Red Sky (Apr 11, 2016)

Smokeandsteam said:


> You said it was aimed at the 'man and women on the street' initially but later that it was aimed at those already politically actIve which, as you know, isn't the same thing. It



Re-read what I actually wrote. I like to think there's some overlap at least between ordinary people and the politically active though. The occasionally politically active.

While you're at it could you explain what ""my god the state is what the /c does. My god" means? Genuinely mystified.


----------



## Sweet FA (Apr 11, 2016)

Fwiw I would have been genuinely interested in what you had to say in response to butchersapron's er _robust_ challenge, Red Sky*. Is there more to what you're doing? I mean, what's the step beyond the direct confrontation? (Which I applaud you for btw). Or is that not what you're about?



*And if there's a whole load of backstory between you and him then fair enough; dunno if I'm stepping into ongoing haaaaandbags.


----------



## Red Sky (Apr 11, 2016)

Sweet FA said:


> Fwiw I would have been genuinely interested in what you had to say in response to butchersapron's er _robust_ challenge,



I'd be genuinely interested to know what his robust challenge actually means! There is no back story (there might be one hastily ret-conned in by Season 3 but there isn't now).


----------



## Sweet FA (Apr 11, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> I'd be genuinely interested to know what his robust challenge actually means! There is no back story (there might be one hastily ret-conned in by Season 3 but there isn't now).


This bit:


butchersapron said:


> Stopping? Why aren't you _doing it?
> _
> Your distance from such concerns is noted. The gap you have between anti-fascism and other stuff.


----------



## Red Sky (Apr 11, 2016)

Sweet FA said:


> This bit:



He doesn't know I'm not doing it. He's just straw manning me. He doesn't (as far as I'm aware) know who I am or what I do. My original point was that the Thurrock Heckler guy was presenting community politics and counter demos as somehow mutually exclusive (We didn't go to Dover etc ). They needn't be.


----------



## Red Sky (Apr 11, 2016)

P.S I love the fact that my 'distance from such concerns is noted' - I definitley felt a chill as I realised that I was now on butchersaprons hitlist.


----------



## Sweet FA (Apr 11, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> He doesn't know I'm not doing it. He's just straw manning me. He doesn't (as far as I'm aware) know who I am or what I do. My original point was that the Thurrock Heckler guy was presenting community politics and counter demos as somehow mutually exclusive (We didn't go to Dover etc ). They needn't be.


Fair enough. I thought he was looking for depth, like I said; the politics beyond the punch ups. Fuck knows I wouldn't want to speak for him though; just how I read it.


Red Sky said:


> P.S I love the fact that my 'distance from distance such concerns is noted' - I definitley felt a chill as I realised that I was now on butchersaprons hitlist.


Sounded like he was writing you off as a political lightweight rather than any kind of threat. Shitlist rather than hitlist.  He can be a gnomic bleeder though so who knows?



eta - though having reread my post, it sounds like I care about the handbags - I was just interested to see what you had to say in answer to the question I thought was being asked.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 11, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> He doesn't know I'm not doing it. He's just straw manning me. He doesn't (as far as I'm aware) know who I am or what I do. My original point was that the Thurrock Heckler guy was presenting community politics and counter demos as somehow mutually exclusive (We didn't go to Dover etc ). They needn't be.


Odd this, given your definitive statement on my wallflower nature. You no longer sound so sure.


----------



## Red Sky (Apr 11, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Odd this, given your definitive statement on my wallflower nature. You no longer sound so sure.



Odd how?  And since you've come back, what does this mean  ""my god the state is what the /c does. My god" ?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 11, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> Odd how?


Your really need telling? A definitive claim about me from you pretending to know who i am and what i've done - that happened. You whining that people might make such claims about you (i didn't btw) you think is a terrible thing.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 11, 2016)

radgiesteve said:


> Butcher's stands up from his chair: gets vertigo hahaha


You've met me and all btw.


----------



## Red Sky (Apr 11, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Your really need telling? A definitive claim about me from you pretending to know who i am and what i've done - that happened. You whining that people might make such claims about you (i didn't btw) you think is a terrible thing.



Be honest. You wanted to have a pop at some wet behind the ears 'antifa' kid and crush them beneath the weight of your intellectual and theoretical superiority. It didn't work out. Pathetic.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 11, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> Be honest. You wanted to have a pop at some wet behind the ears 'antifa' kid and crush them beneath the weight of your intellectual and theoretical superiority. It didn't work out. Pathetic.


That would have been cracking  - i got better,_ a real experienced old hand_ talking shit. You got mugged by yourself and some twat on the some silly other forum too.


----------



## Red Sky (Apr 11, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> You got mugged by yourself and some twat on the some silly other forum too.



Have you been drinking? 

So what does "my god the state is what the /c does. My god" mean ffs?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 11, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> Odd how?  And since you've come back, what does this mean  ""my god the state is what the /c does. My god" ?


It means that the state is the result of class struggle. I meant w/c. You know this - don't you?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 11, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> Have you been drinking?
> 
> So what does "my god the state is what the /c does. My god" mean ffs?


Ta - so you misidentify me and also believe some one pretending to be is me. Spotter detail not for you.


----------



## Red Sky (Apr 11, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> It means that the state is the result of class struggle. I meant w/c. You know this - don't you?



I honestly didn't have a fucking clue what you were on about. "The state is the result of class struggle" - is that what you think or what you think I think?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 11, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> I honestly didn't have a fucking clue what you were on about. "The state is the result of class struggle" - is that what you think or what you think I think?


Maybe this_ not having a fucking clue _is what's behind your misidentifying of me and saying so confidently what others say of me?


----------



## Red Sky (Apr 11, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Maybe this_ not having a fucking clue _is what's behind your misidentifying of me and saying so confidently what others say of me?



I'll PM you.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 11, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> I'll PM you.


Why?


----------



## The39thStep (Apr 12, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Why?



Perhaps Red Sky is the wallflower?


----------



## DrRingDing (Apr 12, 2016)

Sounds like the begining of a romance.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Apr 13, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> Sounds like the begining of a romance.



It won't end well


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Apr 13, 2016)




----------



## DaveCinzano (Apr 13, 2016)




----------



## framed (Apr 16, 2016)

Anyway, here's an old face that's popped up in a peculiar place...

*Solidarity And The KKK Grand Wizard*

*

*


----------



## DaveCinzano (Apr 16, 2016)

framed said:


> Anyway, here's an old face that's popped up in a peculiar place...
> 
> *Solidarity And The KKK Grand Wizard*
> 
> ...



Curious!


----------



## framed (Apr 16, 2016)

"Bless me Tommy, For I have sinned..."






STATEMENT BY GARETH NORMAN

I am responding to recent information concerning my past involvement with reactionary right-wing groups like the BNP. I admit previous involvement with this sad group and I sincerely regret my involvement. I severed all links with them and their divisive, simplistic and poisonous solutions approximately 19 years ago. I think it is worth repeating this fact. It was 19 years ago when I realised how wrong and misguided I was. I broke away and tried to re-build my life with my family. I have for the last two decades promoted a multi-cultural and equal society based on compassion, radical wealth re-distribution and unity among the 99% who are exploited by the super rich and powerful 1% at the top of society.

Since becoming a Christian and active member of the Salvation Army, I have had a heart for those who are vulnerable and disadvantaged in society and founded a Scottish charity ‘Night Ministry’ working throughout the night taking care and compassion to the street homeless and rough sleepers throughout Dundee.

https://wpcluster.dctdigital.com/…/meet-the-homeless-peopl…/

I have worked with socialists in Dundee to expose the activities of the far-right after leaving them and been subjected to threats of violence and death threats for doing so, including visits to my home by Combat 18 members intent on causing me harm. My mistakes in getting involved with these racist, Nazi and poisonous groups cannot be erased. I wish I could re-wind my life and decide in the mid-1980's that the response to unemployment with children in the Whitfield estate of Dundee should have been to fight Thatcher from the left not join groups on the right who wanted to blame immigrants for my poverty instead of the real culprits, the rich and powerful.

I was wrong to follow the simplistic and repugnant views of the far right. I know that now. Wisdom after the fact is always easier than at the time. I have left all that behind me 19 years ago and tried to make amends by helping in progressive causes and movements. I supported the progressive pro-Independence campaign and am now convinced, after many years of thought and reflection, that socialism, equality, peace and human solidarity is the way forward for society. I was attracted to both the Communist Party and Solidarity. I have joined Solidarity and feature on their List for the North East region. I informed Tommy Sheridan of my past before applying to join his party. He asked me if I completely renounced the views and activities of the far right and I said yes without hesitation. He asked if I was sincere in my desire to build a new and better Scotland committed to radical wealth redistribution, peace, equality and welcoming refugees to our shores. I again said yes without hesitation. On the basis of my recantation of my former views of over 19 years ago and my support for Solidarity's radical socialist programme Tommy agreed to me joining and standing as a List candidate. I have now offered to step down because of this latest publicity but Tommy has rejected my offer on the basis that what matters most is what I have stood for in the last 19 years and not what I did years ago. I thank Tommy for showing me such tolerance and compassion. I am not the person I was 19 years ago.

I reject that divisive and racist poison completely. I wonder how many times I will have to apologise before being allowed to move on. For the record, in answer to claims by the right wing, I was never a wizard, grand dragon of the KKK or a secret agent for the state.

I am now a member of a radical socialist party that believes in an independent socialist Scotland. A modern and democratic republic where the sovereignty of the nation is vested in it's people, black and white, young and old not an unelected Monarchy. That is my politics and my philosophy of life now. Those who wish to throw mud at me and try and bring me down for the mistakes I made in life over 24 years ago are invited to ask themselves if they have ever made any mistakes in their lives. I have admitted mine and regret them. I now want to move on and fight for a better, fairer and nuclear weapon free Scotland.

END.


----------



## framed (Apr 18, 2016)

*TAL BLOG: Bless Me Tommy, For I Have Sinned…


 

*


----------



## albionism (Apr 18, 2016)

"I have left all that behind me 19 years ago and tried to make amends by helping in progressive causes and movements."
What, The Salvation Army?


----------



## framed (Apr 18, 2016)

albionism said:


> "I have left all that behind me 19 years ago and tried to make amends by helping in progressive causes and movements."
> What, The Salvation Army?


----------



## framed (Apr 20, 2016)

*Red Antifa website.*
Please note that this organisation is not Red Action or AFA and was not started by anyone associated with Red Action in the past, but it's fairly obvious from the posts and imagery on the site that a new generation of militant anti-fascists have been politically influenced and inspired by Red Action and AFA.


----------



## LDC (Apr 21, 2016)

Wow, a website and load of politics from the 90s. Exactly what is needed. Suspect it'll swiftly evaporate.


----------



## Red Sky (Apr 21, 2016)

framed said:


> *Red Antifa website.*
> Please note that this organisation is not Red Action or AFA and was not started by anyone associated with Red Action in the past, but it's fairly obvious from the posts and imagery on the site that a new generation of militant anti-fascists have been politically influenced and inspired by Red Action and AFA.



Be interesting to see if it goes anywhere.


----------



## framed (Apr 21, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> Be interesting to see if it goes anywhere.



As far as I am aware, the people involved are mostly under 25 and already actively involved in militant activity against the fascists. This development has come out of their political dissatisfaction with those anti-fascist organisations with which they have already been working. No doubt others on the left will do their best to strangle it at birth, but from what I hear, these young militants won't be easily discouraged, either politically or physically.

I would not try to undermine or discourage anyone who wants to fight fascism, especially those who approach militant anti-fascism from a pro-working class perspective. We can offer counsel on strategy and tactics, but at the end of the day it's up to them and I won't knock them for wanting to put the boot in.

This is the same attitude that previous generations of anti-fascist militants had to AFA; from IB'ers to the Communists who fought the Blackshirts in the 30's to the 43 Group, the 62 Group and the Squadists. They did not seek to interfere with, or unduly affect the militancy of subsequent generations.


----------



## framed (Apr 21, 2016)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Wow, a website and load of politics from the 90s. Exactly what is needed. Suspect it'll swiftly evaporate.



Go crawl back under your rock..


----------



## Red Sky (Apr 21, 2016)

framed said:


> No doubt others on the left will do their best to strangle it at birth, but from what I hear, these young militants won't be easily discouraged, either politically or physically.



Some might try to strangle it at birth - most will welcome anyone who wants to enter the fray.


----------



## framed (Apr 21, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> Some might try to strangle it at birth - most will welcome anyone who wants to enter the fray.



They are already in the fray, this is a political reorganisation and realignment by a likeminded group of people who have already been doing the business.


----------



## Red Sky (Apr 21, 2016)

framed said:


> They are already in the fray, this is a political reorganisation and realignment by a likeminded group of people who have already been doing the business.



Who's doing the strangling then?


----------



## framed (Apr 21, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> Who's doing the strangling then?



It was a personal opinion/prediction based on experience, not a statement of fact - _"No doubt others on the left will..."_ - do you always interpret things literally and/or personally?


----------



## Red Sky (Apr 21, 2016)

Having just read their 'statement of intent' - I think I can probably guess who they are! Quite a Northern focus to their list of triumphs. It also sounds like they're not a million miles away politically from the AFN - although I suspect there will be a deep divide when it comes to dress sense.


----------



## framed (Apr 21, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> Having just read their 'statement of intent' - I think I can probably guess who they are! Quite a Northern focus to their list of triumphs. It also sounds like they're not a million miles away politically from the AFN - although I suspect there will be a deep divide when it comes to dress sense.



Maybe you can guess further and name them as well, you silly fcuker.


----------



## Red Sky (Apr 21, 2016)

framed said:


> Maybe you can guess further and name them as well, you silly fcuker.



Why would I do that ?


----------



## framed (Apr 21, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> Why would I do that ?



You started the guessing game...

Welcome them to 'the fray' then and shut your hole, that should be enough said here, stop speculating about their possible geographical location, or whether or not you can 'guess' who they are.


----------



## Red Sky (Apr 21, 2016)

framed said:


> You started the guessing game...
> 
> Welcome them to 'the fray' then and shut your hole, that should be enough said here, stop speculating about their possible geographical location, or whether or not you can 'guess' who they are.



Bit of an over-reaction there! Steady on.


----------



## framed (Apr 21, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> Bit of an over-reaction there! Steady on.



It's not an overreaction. You should know better than to speculate publicly mate. I posted their link as a favour to one of them that I'm in touch with, I have a bit of time and respect for the young fella that contacted me. I don't really care who else is involved or where they are primarily based. It's not important imho, what is important is that they've made a statement of intent that is pro-working class and which from my point of view as former AFA and RA, is a welcome development. That's it, about as much as I know, and I prefer it that way.


----------



## where to (Apr 21, 2016)

i've been out of the loop politically for quite a while, but are red antifa the first left group to specifically and openly target choudary/isis?  

seems a major breakthrough, the most interesting thing about them, and its not before time. one to watch.


----------



## Red Sky (Apr 21, 2016)

framed said:


> It's not an overreaction. You should know better than to speculate publicly mate. I posted their link as a favour to one of them that I'm in touch with, I have a bit of time and respect for the young fella that contacted me. I don't really care who else is involved or where they are primarily based. It's not important imho, what is important is that they've made a statement of intent that is pro-working class and which from my point of view as former AFA and RA, is a welcome development. That's it, about as much as I know, and I prefer it that way.



It is a welcome development - although it's not as if other existing anti-fascists aren't pro-working class. As for putting info out in public to be fair you were the one who announced their ages and the fact they were already involved. I put that together with their statement and took a wild guess as to who has put similar statements out in the past. I might be completely wrong.


----------



## Red Sky (Apr 21, 2016)

where to said:


> i've been out of the loop politically for quite a while, but are red antifa the first left group to specifically and openly target choudary/isis?
> 
> seems a major breakthrough, the most interesting thing about them, and its not before time. one to watch.



There was an AFN bloc on the recent Kurdish solidarity march in London. Anti-fascists have gone to fight ISIS.


----------



## framed (Apr 22, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> It is a welcome development - although it's not as if other existing anti-fascists aren't pro-working class. As for putting info out in public to be fair you were the one who announced their ages and the fact they were already involved. I put that together with their statement and took a wild guess as to who has put similar statements out in the past. I might be completely wrong.



They've made a 'wild guess' at who you are too, but please keep digging that hole...


----------



## framed (Apr 22, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> There was an AFN bloc on the recent Kurdish solidarity march in London. Anti-fascists have gone to fight ISIS.



So Red Sky, your basic line appears to be something to the effect of, _'been there, done that'_.
*
Pro-working class?													   Anti-ISIS?
*








All boxes already ticked, so how come this group has organised itself into a _Red Action_ style outfit, if all this has already been covered by existing organisations? 

As far as your wild guesswork is concerned, haven't you learnt your lesson from already trying to 'out' _butchers apron_ on this thread? You wasted 2 pages recently making a dick of yourself over that one.

Here's the link again for those who are genuinely interested in this new development.

I'll repost it every time you waste a page with your derailing drivel Red Sky 

*RED ANTIFA *
*

*


----------



## Red Sky (Apr 22, 2016)

framed said:


> So Red Sky, your basic line appears to be something to the effect of, _'been there, done that'_.
> *
> Pro-working class?													   Anti-ISIS?*
> 
> ...



So your whole aim is to have a sectarian dust up. Why? You're reading far more into my comments than is there. 

As I said it's a welcome development, more power to their elbow and lets see where it goes.


----------



## Red Sky (Apr 22, 2016)

framed said:


> They've made a 'wild guess' at who you are too, but please keep digging that hole...



Fair enough - say hello for me.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 22, 2016)

where to said:


> i've been out of the loop politically for quite a while, but are red antifa the first left group to specifically and openly target choudary/isis?
> 
> seems a major breakthrough, the most interesting thing about them, and its not before time. one to watch.



I noticed that too. I also noticed the pro working class orientation. Both unusual, both welcome and make me strongly supportive of those involved.


----------



## where to (Apr 22, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> There was an AFN bloc on the recent Kurdish solidarity march in London. Anti-fascists have gone to fight ISIS.



i was aware of the latter but not of the former. interesting, and good stuff. i'm sure there would be many kurds interested in this development.  great care required though - it was the sight of kurds and isis supporters clashing in Hamburg in 2014 that kick-started Pegida over there.


----------



## framed (Apr 22, 2016)

Red Sky I would suggest that it's you that needs to wind your neck in.

Rather than a _'sectarian dust up'_ I'd prefer to take a closer look at the historically illiterate analysis you offered a few pages back when challenged by _butchers_.



> "The BNP itself has collapsed with the expulsion of Nick Griffin, their most successful leader, marking their march into oblivion. Back in 1992 following sustained pressure from militant anti-fascists, the BNP announced a change in direction. Nick Griffin's announced that there would be “no more marches, no more punch-ups” and re-orientated the BNP in an electoral direction. Following this change of tack there was a virtual cessation of far-right street activity in the U.K. "


*
Griffin didn't announce the 'no more meetings, marches, or punch-ups' - It was Tony Lecomber. And it wasn't in 1992, it was April 1994 to be precise. Far-right street activity continued long after that. AFA was still fighting them physically in Glasgow up to 1998 and in Edinburgh the fash were still making appearances into the 2000's. AFA activists in London, the North West, Bristol and the Midlands were still engaged against the fascists up to the late 90's and beyond. You can't even get your dates and facts right.*




> "That all changed in 2009 with the advent of the English Defence League. Cut from a different cloth than previous nationalist street movements, they were a single issue right wing campaign. They effectively attempted to import the tactics of the Orange March to mainland UK."



*Really? Orange Marches? Do you even know or understand the nature of the Orange Order and Loyalism? There maybe some parallels, but nothing the EDL did looks like an Orange March, maybe the more militant but smaller Loyalist 'Fleg' Protests, certainly not the Orange Order. Yes, they may have learned some street tactics from Loyalism (Britain First though is the organisation that wants to emulate loyalism). The EDL used the tactics of the big national football firm and applied it on the street primarily to agitate against Islamism. *




> "The EDL are and were an online phenomenon, they don't aim for day to day 'control of the streets'"



*- You might as well say that every football hooligan firm is an 'online phenomenon', but some of them also exist in reality. This is meaningless drivel. There isn't a fascist group in Britland post-war that that has tried to establish 'day-to-day control of the streets'. WTF are you talking about? Their main aim has been to establish themselves as a political force and to be publicly recognised across the country as a viable alternative to the political status quo. Those occasions where they have sought to 'control the streets' have been with the general intention of raising the public profile and attempting through one-off events and marches to demonstrate that they are capable of physically defeating any opposition from the left.., The fact that it hasn't worked for them so far has been down to physical force anti-fascism, but none of them ever got near to the position of 'day to day control'. To achieve that would require vastly greater numbers and a situation of almost 'dual power' between the fascists and the state. *




> "There were no public meetings or attempts to leaflet in small groups, let alone stand for election."



*Not entirely true. Lennon and Carrol both ran for election under the British Freedom Party, which for a short while was seen as the political wing of the EDL.*




> "At the moment the far-right is in disarray"



*A confident assertion. Lots of groups exist, but there is a level of unity and co-operation among them. The 'disarray' may only be temporary.*


----------



## Red Sky (Apr 22, 2016)

This is Red Antifa's "Statement of Intent" - to be honest you'd find it hard to slide a fag-paper between it and the text you've performed an exegesis on above. Which, by the way, was a leaflet that went out a couple of years in my area.

_In the 1990’s, John Tyndall, then leader of the British National Party (BNP) declared that the BNP would no longer be involved in organising marches, holding public meetings or getting involved in punch-ups. This was after a sustained campaign by *Anti-Fascist Action* and allied groups. The BNP, then the main fascist organisation, had been beaten in a theatre which was absolutely key for growth and eventual victory, the streets. Subsequently, the BNP retreated into the ballot box.

Today the BNP are a shadow of their former selves having been both beaten on the streets and with the rise of UKIP achieving little current electoral success. The floundering of the BNP is largely symbolic, because the BNP were the far-right success story; the veritable mainstream and despite protestations from some quarters of the far-right (Post-BNP, Combat 18, etc), there was always a secret admiration for them and a capitalisation on their success (By far-right standards) when the party became a household name.

In recent years this floundering stagnation has meant a back-to-basics approach for the far right; a return to the streets. Whilst we do not want to count our chickens yet and say that the BNP are gone, they are a barely visible group and less significant than what they were a mere few years ago.

In 2009 the English Defence League (EDL) burst onto the scene signalling the beginning of the return to the streets. The EDL had a simplistic and popular appeal, capitalising on the rampant anti-Muslim bile which pervades British society at the moment (Until the next big scapegoat comes along). This brought with it plastic ‘casual’ elements from the football scene who wanted to prove themselves on the pavement and subsequently brought confrontation to local communities and political opponents. With the odd physical clash here and there, the EDL were literally pulling a couple of thousand on each national demonstration.  However,  with the defection of their leader to the Quilliam Foundation, like the BNP before them, the EDL is now a shadow of its former self, pulling barely double figures for protests in some localities. Stephen Lennon, one of the founders of the EDL threw in the towel with the aid of the state sponsored think-tank Quilliam. He has now resurfaced and tried to latch onto the PEGIDA brand in order to appeal to a more middle-class demographic. Having failed in its first incarnation, PEGIDA Mark 2 has not got off to the greatest of starts either, pulling way under expected numbers for their first demo under the Lennon leadership. A clearly disappointed Lennon was then left with no other option but to try and fob potential supporters off with yet another fake attack on himself.

What has been left now is the EDL hardcore and smaller groupings such as the North West Infidels (NWI), South East Alliance (SEA), a resurfacing of the British Movement (BM) and the C18 brand, Scottish Defence League (SDL), North East Infidels (NEI), National Action (NA, itself a group which came out of the BNP) and also a salad mix of various continental European groups such as NOP, National Rebirth of Poland (ONR), United Emigrants, “Hooligans Poland” and an assortment of others. Street confrontations have now became the norm.

What does this mean for us as anti-fascists though? Simply put it means we must up our ante in both the physical and the political arenas. We need to stop being a purely reactive force and aim to set the agenda in working class areas, OUR areas. For this to be done we need a working class anti-fascism by and for the working class. We have seen a resurgence in confrontation between ourselves and the far-right but at the moment (Minus a few groups) we are ill prepared to take this on. Of course, not everyone has to be a fighter, it should never be expected of anyone that they MUST physically fight but it should recognised that the politics of the fist and the boot are coming back into the arena. We should all be prepared for this whether we are street fighters or not.

Militant anti-fascism, in general, has scored some notable successes such as taking on and beating the plastic casuals in a fight at the Howard Arms in Sheffield, despite being massively outnumbered; successfully confronting the White Man March in Newcastle in March 2015 (Which resulted in physical injuries for a few of the fascist participants); and the widely publicised success stories of when National Action tried to repeat the White Man March in Liverpool in August 2015. In addition , this year, when various far-right outfits, with Polish “hooligans” at the helm (Excuse the pun), tried to hold a demo in Liverpool – which resulted in an entire police public order unit having to form a Roman style wall in order to escort them to safety – the Polish far-right “hooligans” were humiliated ,as were their supporters who came out that day.

We have known since the days of Benito Mussolini that fascism requires the streets in order to grow, have any influence and take power. We are not going to kid ourselves and say that it is impossible for this to happen because history has shown that it is anything but impossble. Overestimating and underestimating your enemy can only lead to defeat. This will inevitably involve physical confrontation; whether this is going to-to-toe with the fascists, blockading their marches and street stalls, or engaging in other forms of physical activity intended to deny fascists the space to exist and grow.

We at Red Antifa intend to fight the fascists as and when they appear, but also to be realistic about the limitations. Physical anti-fascism is necessary when the left has failed – and the left has well and truly failed the working class. Our intention is to reverse this trend and to be proactive in not just telling people that there is an alternative, but to present the alternative to them. We intend to play our part fully in setting the agenda and not constantly being a reactive force. We need to be out there in our communities, on our estates and in places such as youth clubs and workplaces. This is our constituency and this is ultimately where we will break the back of fascism. The fascists have had it too easy for far too long and this we intend on turning on its head.
To this end we have formed Red Antifa with the explicit intention of driving fascists from our streets, workplaces and estates and denying them the space to exist. We will aim to tackle fascism in all of its forms and whichever face it may be wearing, whether it be the neo-nazism of National Action, the clerical fascism of Anjem Choudhary and his followers, the fascist Jewish Defence League (JDL) or whichever mask the fascists choose to wear.
It is liberal anti-fascism’s refusal to address ALL of the various manifestations of fascism which has led the far-right to have a monopoly on many issues that are of relevance to working class people. All fascists should and will be treated the same, without exception. Compromise has never been an option in the battle against the fascists and we as anti-fascists must represent that tradition. We are politically frank and not afraid to tackle the unpalatable issues which face us as working class people, whatever they may be. To choke the supply of fascist recruits at source, this approach must be paramount.

With this in mind, we look forward to seeing you on the streets._


----------



## Red Sky (Apr 22, 2016)

framed said:


> *
> Griffin didn't announce the 'no more meetings, marches, or punch-ups' - It was Tony Lecomber. *



According to Google via a book called 'Against the Grain' which I've just come across - it was an internal document written by Nick Griffin and Tony Lecomber. It was 1994 though.


----------



## framed (Apr 22, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> According to Google via a book called 'Against the Grain' which I've just come across - it was an internal document written by Nick Griffin and Tony Lecomber. It was 1994 though.




You're always right even when you're wrong... 

*Tony Lecomber and BNP Strategy *

Lecomber made the *public announcement* to the press in April 1994. FFS, the Battle at Waterloo Station was in 1992, but don't let a mere two years and a host of anti-fascist victories get in the way of your revisionism. Just you babble away and make it up as you go along.


P.S. I could drive a lorry through the gap that you think a fag paper would fill between those two statements. If you can't see it, I suggest taking a course in interpretation.


----------



## Red Sky (Apr 23, 2016)

framed said:


> You're always right even when you're wrong...
> 
> *Tony Lecomber and BNP Strategy *
> 
> ...



What would be the point in your articulate lorry driving? How would it advance anti-fascism?

 I'm sorry that the correct degree of veneration for AFA wasn't displayed in our leaflet - perhaps you could draft a disclaimer to be displayed on any future propaganda.

Once again for the removal of any doubt - good luck to Red Antifa.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Apr 23, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> According to Google via a book called 'Against the Grain' which I've just come across - it was an internal document written by Nick Griffin and Tony Lecomber. It was 1994 though.



If the essay on anti-fascism by David Renton is your source, it's hardly surprising your facts are all askew. In regard to anti-fascism as historically understood, he is a virulent opponent, (he once described the activities of the 43 Group as 'largely non-violent') and despises AFA in particular. 
I once attempted a critique of said essay and it contained so many 'errors' like the one you quoted, I found it impossible. In the end I simply listed them. 
If memory serves, the total came to something like 26. Renton is educated. So this is not sloppy research by the semi-literate. It is not history. It is not about the "correct degree of veneration for AFA" as you put it. It is out and out counter-propaganda.  Which invariably means improving the facts that get in the way of a satisfyingly revisionist narrative. 

But then not letting the facts get in the way of 'a good story' is something you seem rather relaxed about yourself.


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## Red Sky (Apr 23, 2016)

Joe Reilly said:


> If the essay on anti-fascism by David Renton is your source, it's hardly surprising your facts are all askew. In regard to anti-fascism as historically understood, he is a virulent opponent, (he once described the activities of the 43 Group as 'largely non-violent') and despises AFA in particular.
> I once attempted a critique of said essay and it contained so many 'errors' like the one you quoted, I found it impossible. In the end I simply listed them.
> If memory serves, the total came to something like 26. Renton is educated. So this is not sloppy research by the semi-literate. It is not history. It is not about the "correct degree of veneration for AFA" as you put it. It is out and out counter-propaganda.  Which invariably means improving the facts that get in the way of a satisfyingly revisionist narrative.
> 
> But then not letting the facts get in the way of 'a good story' is something you seem rather relaxed about yourself.



There's not much point picking the text of that leaflet apart as if I'd presented it as a PHD thesis. Certainly the idea that Nick Griffin said 'no more marches, no more punch ups'  is common currency. Although I'm happy to be corrected, does it undermine the central idea behind the leaflet - which bears a broad similarity to the Red Antifa statement? In my view, it doesn't.


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## framed (Apr 23, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> There's not much point picking the text of that leaflet apart as if I'd presented it as a PHD thesis. Certainly the idea that Nick Griffin said 'no more marches, no more punch ups'  is common currency. Although I'm happy to be corrected, does it undermine the central idea behind the leaflet - which bears a broad similarity to the Red Antifa statement? In my view, it doesn't.



One point I think you've missed here is the significance of it being Lecomber who made that public announcement. Hence the importance that Red Action attached to it. It was in effect the leader of the street footsoldiers issuing the command to stand down. Griffin couldn't have achieved the political turn to the mainstream without Lecomber's support and authority at that time... by the time Lecomber did go, Griffin had secured his own political authority and leadership... and we saw where that ended up.


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## The39thStep (Apr 24, 2016)

hopefully Red Antifa will not be waving refugees welcome here banners


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## cantsin (Apr 25, 2016)

The39thStep said:


> hopefully Red Antifa will not be waving refugees welcome here banners



is that your first / main concern for this new group?


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## Joe Reilly (Apr 25, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> There's not much point picking the text of that leaflet apart as if I'd presented it as a PHD thesis. Certainly the idea that Nick Griffin said 'no more marches, no more punch ups'  is common currency.


'Common currency' is not really much of a defence - lot's of thing were/are common currency. 'No change of strategy for BNP'. 'Only the scum on estates vote for them'. 'AFA leadership blinked first' -betrayed the anti-fascist movement'. 'UKIP will never win in working class constituencies' etc. All of them common currency at one stage. All of them shown to be wrong. Whether Griffin or Lecomber announced the change of strategy is not the main point of contention. However if you are issuing public statements. presenting yourself as an authority on the subject, then the finer details of why the historic strategy  was abandoned is surely something you really ought to be familiar with. Relying on charlatans like Renton, naturally raises the question about your own bone fides.


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## Red Sky (Apr 25, 2016)

Joe Reilly said:


> 'Common currency' is not really much of a defence - lot's of thing were/are common currency. 'No change of strategy for BNP'. 'Only the scum on estates vote for them'. 'AFA leadership blinked first' -betrayed the anti-fascist movement'. 'UKIP will never win in working class constituencies' etc. All of them common currency at one stage. All of them shown to be wrong. Whether Griffin or Lecomber announced the change of strategy is not the main point of contention. However if you are issuing public statements. presenting yourself as an authority on the subject, then the finer details of why the historic strategy  was abandoned is surely something you really ought to be familiar with. Relying on charlatans like Renton, naturally raises the question about your own bone fides.



Firstly, I have never presented myself as an 'authority' on the subject of anti-fascism in the 80s/early 90s.

Secondly, I have never made any  of the assertions above - all of which are effectively derogatory to the anti-fascists of that era, which making a mistake between Lecomber and Griffin's authorship of the 'no more marches, no more punch ups' quote is not.

The leaflet was quite complimentary about your generation's efforts - so I'm not clear why you want to pick a fight. It's one line out of a leaflet that was concerned primarily with events that were occurring at the time - not twenty years before.


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## Joe Reilly (Apr 26, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> The leaflet was quite complimentary about your generation's efforts - so I'm not clear why you want to pick a fight. It's one line out of a leaflet that was concerned primarily with events that were occurring at the time - not twenty years before.



If you haven't bothered to acquaint yourself with what happened 'before' how can you be sure what is happening now? If you concentrate on the present what do you judge it against? Are you winning or losing? Are you in a position to tell the difference?

For example while you may claim to be "quite complimentary" about what AFA "and allies" (who they?) achieved, it is an opinion without merit, for with a congenital liar like Renton as your primary source, with the best will in the world, you have no idea and seemingly care less about what actually happened "twenty years before."

Truth is, the periods are inextricably linked, each leaving its mark on the generation that comes after. By writing leaflets you are automatically presenting yourself as an authority on a subject you take pride in knowing little about.


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## The39thStep (Apr 27, 2016)

cantsin said:


> is that your first / main concern for this new group?



Success is .


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## Red Sky (Apr 27, 2016)

The39thStep said:


> Success is .



What would success be as far as you're concerned?


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## The39thStep (Apr 27, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> What would success be as far as you're concerned?


Achieving what they have said they have set out to do. What about you?


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## Red Sky (Apr 27, 2016)

The39thStep said:


> Achieving what they have said they have set out to do. What about you?



Their remit seems pretty broad. I expect they'll achieve some of it but not all, like most of us.


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## Joe Reilly (Apr 28, 2016)

cantsin said:


> is that your first / main concern for this new group?



Yes indeed, why risk any tactical or strategic changes when the combination of neo-liberalism, identity politics, open borders,  and Islamophilia is proving such a roaring success?


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## Red Sky (Apr 28, 2016)

Joe Reilly said:


> Yes indeed, why risk any tactical or strategic changes when the combination of neo-liberalism, identity politics, open borders,  and Islamophilia is proving such a roaring success?



And where's this peculiar (and toxic) combination of belief systems to be found?


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## Joe Reilly (Apr 29, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> And where's this peculiar (and toxic) combination of belief systems to be found?


You don't have to look too hard. There is nothing peculiar about. Most formerly social democratic parties carry the strain.


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## krink (May 15, 2016)

Thought I'd just mention that at an anti-fascist counter demo in Newcastle yesterday  there was an appearance from the newly relaunched YRE. I wasn't there but I must say I am slightly baffled why they have revived it and what they're hoping to achieve.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (May 15, 2016)

Young Reporters for the Environment?


----------



## gawkrodger (May 16, 2016)

Youth Against Racism in Europe


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## DaveCinzano (May 16, 2016)

Not one of Mark E Smith's finest moments


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## framed (May 17, 2016)

krink said:


> Thought I'd just mention that at an anti-fascist counter demo in Newcastle yesterday  there was an appearance from the newly relaunched YRE. I wasn't there but I must say I am slightly baffled why they have revived it and what they're hoping to achieve.



UAF have also mysteriously reappeared in the area as well. Both YRE and UAF have apparently re-emerged in the North East due to the appearance of another more militant anti-fascist outfit. This is exactly the role that YRE played in Glasgow in relation to AFA in the early to mid-1990's. They were set up to directly compete with AFA in Scotland and to muddy the waters. I would view this as a similarly cynical and politically sectarian manoeuvre.

In other words, the people who revived these front organisations for the SWP and the Socialist Party in the North East are not reacting to any perceived increase in the activity of the fascists, but are in fact reacting to the increased activity of militant anti-fascists.


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## Magnus McGinty (May 17, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> Having just read their 'statement of intent' - I think I can probably guess who they are!



It's Swampy and Saphire from East Leicester-Shire!

Spell checker tried to change shire to shite there, as a pointless aside.


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## Red Sky (May 17, 2016)

framed said:


> Both YRE and UAF have apparently re-emerged in the North East due to the appearance of another more militant anti-fascist outfit.



Who? Red Antifa?


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## Magnus McGinty (May 17, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> Who? Red Antifa?



The Brighton Massive submitted a general interest in being there on the day but in the event it was left to angry women from the metro centre to set matters straight.


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## Red Sky (May 17, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> The Brighton Massive submitted a general interest in being there on the day but in the event it was left to angry women from the metro centre to set matters straight.



Brighton? In the North East?


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## Magnus McGinty (May 17, 2016)

I don't think red antifa even exist tbh. It's a daft point to be hung up on.

But I think people/activists *hope* they exist. 

And you too. You hate the clerics also?


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## Magnus McGinty (May 17, 2016)

Their statement is good. Forgetting if they exist for a minute. Red Sky 
What do you dispute?


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## Red Sky (May 17, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Their statement is good. Forgetting if they exist for a minute. Red Sky
> What do you dispute?



I don't dispute anything - I thought it was a good statement.  Of course I hate the theocrats.

I am a bit puzzled why you thought the Brighton massive should have been dealing with fash in Newcastle?


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## framed (May 17, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> Who? Red Antifa?



Been down this road before, have we not?

I hear that your lot from Brighton are none too pleased and have been demanding to know who this new lot are and if they are simply a 'front' for Red Action... 

'Welcome to the fray' was how you greeted their arrival here, not so welcoming of the idea inside the AFN though, are you?


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## Red Sky (May 17, 2016)

framed said:


> Been down this road before, have we not?
> 
> I hear that your lot from Brighton are none too pleased and have been demanding to know who this new lot are and if they are simply a 'front' for Red Action...
> 
> 'Welcome to the fray' was how you greeted their arrival here, not so welcoming of the idea inside the AFN though, are you?



Dunno who you're hearing that from but they're talking bollocks.


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## framed (May 17, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> Dunno who you're hearing that from but they're talking bollocks.



You're a cunt, that's what I know.


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## Red Sky (May 17, 2016)

framed said:


> You're a cunt, that's what I know.



Dearie me.


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## Magnus McGinty (May 18, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> I don't dispute anything - I thought it was a good statement.  Of course I hate the theocrats.
> 
> I am a bit puzzled why you thought the Brighton massive should have been dealing with fash in Newcastle?



It says on your blog that you 'travel the country'. Is Newcastle abroad?


----------



## cantsin (May 18, 2016)

Joe Reilly said:


> Yes indeed, why risk any tactical or strategic changes when the combination of neo-liberalism, identity politics, open borders,  and Islamophilia is proving such a roaring success?



your (collective) line on refugees / immigration is thought provoking +  hard to fully refute ( imo - it's helped change my perspective at any rate ) .

But the idea that rejecting the open borders approach to refugees would be the first issue that a new anti fash grouping would address just seems all over the shop.

People defending refugees is a natural, reflexive show of solidarity with fellow humans trying to escape  hell,   "Islamophilia" as you call it, is a similar end product response to  (indisputable)  decades of Western colonialism and exploitation in the mid east. You can deem both responses as just liberal components of neo liberalism, but compassion and instinctive shows of solidarity can always be more than that, and often are ( " we carry a new world here in our hearts" n'all that.)


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## Magnus McGinty (May 18, 2016)

I doubt that many on the left would adopt a 'refugees unwelcome' position. Not sure how helpful organising under a 'refugees welcome' banner is though given parts of the WC see refugees/immigrants/Muslims as one homogenous block in the failure that is top down multiculturalism.


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## Red Sky (May 18, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> It says on your blog that you 'travel the country'. Is Newcastle abroad?



I don't have a blog.


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## Magnus McGinty (May 18, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> I don't have a blog.



Ok. Brighton AFN blog can't represent Brighton AFN then.


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## Red About Town (May 18, 2016)

Latest post from Red Antifa website.

*Fear and Loathing on the Estate*

We should start by stating that it goes without saying that we oppose discrimination against refugees and we will stand toe-to-toe with refugees under attack from racists, xenophobes, the right, the state and other political opportunists. We will also counter falsehoods where they exist and tell the cold hard truth where it also exists. Now let us be blunt and start with the cold hard truth.

Current refugee policy is a joke and does not take into account many of the concerns of local people in terms of where refugees are housed, nor does it take into account the concerns and well being of the refugees themselves. Anyone who tries to address some of the legitimate concerns surrounding the housing of refugees and the funding of their settlement,  is immediately labelled as “racist” – even if they are not. This usually results from a middle class liberal political/activist elite,  shouting down those who do raise legitimate concerns. As it stands refugees are more often than not housed in working class areas which are already overcrowded, underfunded and underdeveloped. Housing refugees where resources are so scarce, especially without consultation and listening to wishes of the local community, unfairly results in animosity and suspicion against the refugees themselves. This can lead to the far-right taking up the baton which is not good for either the locals or the refugees.

It is bad for working class communities because our concerns become hijacked by far-right political opportunists, deflecting attention away from the real source of the problem at hand. It is also bad for the new arrivals because allowing the far-right to monopolise this issue often leads to the inevitable harrassment of the refugees and they can unfairly become the victims of attacks, both verbal and physical, as a result of incitement by the xenophobic rhetoric of fascists.

It is also unfair to already impoverished communities because a strain is put on resources, and in a time of cuts and austerity, this is a far from sensible option. It is also grossly unfair for the refugees because they are coming from areas of incredible hardship, death and destruction to be simply thrown into an under resourced area making life far from perfect for them as well as locals already in those areas.

Make no mistake of it, refugees are not to blame for this situation. Who is to blame though and what is to be done about it?  For a start the British state could use some of the tax revenue which it makes from the sales of the weapons used in the wars which creates the need for refugees to flee. This could fund the upkeep of the refugees and pump some much needed funds into working class areas in general. It would be even better if they simply did not bomb people out of their homes in the first place and thereby reduce the need for refugees to flee. Failing this, refugees could be housed in areas with a higher degree of funding and resources available.

Where concerns around housing are concerned, in this country there are empty homes roughly equivalent to the total size of the area of Leeds. This is enough to fulfill current needs. We should be campaigning to have these opened and made available to all who need them such as those on housing waiting lists, homeless people, refugees and all others in need. The lack of
social and affordable housing has resulted from years of the Labour and Conservative Parties selling off and dismantling social housing stock. More often than not this social housing stock has fallen into the hands of greedy developers and property speculators; capitalists who buy up cheap housing and wait for the price to rise and then sell it at a premium. Properties can remain empty year-on-year because of the deliberate creation of a housing stock shortage by the speculators and profiteers. For the houses that are left we are are made to compete with each other for the scarce supply. This also pushes house prices up to unaffordable levels for a lot of working class people, especially those of us on low incomes, those living in places like London, etc. The process of gentrification does not help either as it also pushes house prices up as greedy landlords cash in on the colonisation (colonisation by the affluent that is) of working class areas. Gentrification also results in a general rise in the cost of living from utility bills and food, to transport and other resources. The process of gentrification and the colonisation of our areas must be stopped and the process reversed.

This ties into employment and skill shortages. It is no secret that there is mass unemployment out there and few jobs to fulfill demand. This has come off the back of increased competition and the offshoring and closing down of a lot of the skilled and ‘unskilled’ industries in this country. Those jobs end up in places with slave labour conditions such as India, Pakistan, China, Vietnam, etc. The workers in such places endure awful conditions whilst earning a pittance in return. Whilst this is going on people here are left without jobs. All the while bosses get fat on profits.  Here is a proposed solution. We need social housing and we need jobs. We should be building much needed social housing whilst training apprentices to do this job. This fulfills the two essential needs of work and housing.

We should focus on stopping the problem at source. Halt globalisation resulting in slave labour work conditions,  stop creating debt abroad, stop bombing people out of their homes abroad, stop funding and training murderous gangs of fascists such as Deash (ISIS) and Al-Nusra (Al Qaeda); stop creating economic and political ties with dictatorial regimes abroad (Saudi Arabia, Turkey, etc.), the list goes on. These are the things which cause people to flee in search of a modicum of safety, comfort and relative happiness.

Stop the problem at source and we stop the need for people to flee their homes. No-one wants to leave their home country and risk their lives coming to Europe only to be met with animosity and being housed in already under resourced and overcrowded areas. Either these communities receive extra investment in terms of housing and resources to improve the lot of everyone on the estates and accommodate the refugees, or the government should consider those affluent middle class areas that are already well resourced as a more suitable alternative to house and settle refugees.

Of paramount importance though is to consult and listen to local concerns over the housing and settlement of refugees instead of simply shrugging them off as if our opinions and concerns are worth nothing. No progress will be made without consulting and listening to local concerns. On this topic a listening ear will always be found in the far-right who will add the racial dimension to
the issue in order to divide and rule in working class areas.

We constantly need to deal with the uncomfortable in order to find a solution to genuine problems that we all face. We will not get anywhere by simply holding a “_*Refugees Welcome Here*_” placard and hoping for the best. We need to address these issues as they are, even if addressing them causes us some political discomfort. This is the only way we can address local concerns, halt the monopolisation of the far-right on this argument and make daily life better for all


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## Red Sky (May 18, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Ok. Brighton AFN blog can't represent Brighton AFN then.



"*Welcome to Brighton Antifascists.* We are an independent group, based in Brighton, that formed as a response to an increase in nationalist and fascist activity in our community. We are willing to confront any fascist/racist activities in our area, by encouraging mass direct action amongst other methods. We are not aligned with any political party, nor do we co-operate with any, we also don’t work with the police. The state cannot be relied upon to oppose fascism, and will tolerate or encourage fascist groups when it suits itspurposes.  We try to organise as a non-hierarchical group. We are part of the nationwide Antifascist Network, which works to encourage militant resistance to fascists and racists where ever they rear their unwelcome heads. If you have any information on fascist activity please email us at *brightonantifascists@riseup.net" - that's their main statement.

It might say something about travelling somewhere on the blog (where did you find it?)  but are you really going to try and haul the Brighton lot over the coals for not turning up to oppose a tiny fash demo in Newcastle? *


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## Magnus McGinty (May 19, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> "*Welcome to Brighton Antifascists.* We are an independent group, based in Brighton, that formed as a response to an increase in nationalist and fascist activity in our community. We are willing to confront any fascist/racist activities in our area, by encouraging mass direct action amongst other methods. We are not aligned with any political party, nor do we co-operate with any, we also don’t work with the police. The state cannot be relied upon to oppose fascism, and will tolerate or encourage fascist groups when it suits itspurposes.  We try to organise as a non-hierarchical group. We are part of the nationwide Antifascist Network, which works to encourage militant resistance to fascists and racists where ever they rear their unwelcome heads. If you have any information on fascist activity please email us at *brightonantifascists@riseup.net" - that's their main statement.
> 
> It might say something about travelling somewhere on the blog (where did you find it?)  but are you really going to try and haul the Brighton lot over the coals for not turning up to oppose a tiny fash demo in Newcastle? *



Out of interest, have Brighton ever turned up in Newcastle? Liverpool manages to get a countrywide mobilisation but I think there's a tendency to shrug regarding the NE.


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## Louis MacNeice (May 19, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> *Out of interest, have Brighton ever turned up in Newcastle?* Liverpool manages to get a countrywide mobilisation but I think there's a tendency to shrug regarding the NE.



Yep... in 1979 we beat the magpies 3-1 at St James' Park and were promoted to the first division.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


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## krink (May 19, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Out of interest, have Brighton ever turned up in Newcastle? Liverpool manages to get a countrywide mobilisation but I think there's a tendency to shrug regarding the NE.



I've retired  so I'm not in the loop now but we did have some London come up before for this white man march nonsense and they were very useful  and some comrades from North East have been to Brighton for the mobilisations down there the last few years.

framed  I'll never trust the UAF/Labour/Counterfire lot up here after their grassing and conniving with the cops to have anti-fascists arrested.
YRE will be the socialist party yeah? the few I've met up here seem sound but I've no idea where their 'youth' are coming from as they're all old farts like me


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## Red Sky (May 19, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Out of interest, have Brighton ever turned up in Newcastle? Liverpool manages to get a countrywide mobilisation but I think there's a tendency to shrug regarding the NE.



Personally I was at Jesmond Dene in 1992.


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## Joe Reilly (May 19, 2016)

cantsin said:


> your (collective) line on refugees / immigration is thought provoking +  hard to fully refute ( imo - it's helped change my perspective at any rate ) .
> *Good to know. It's a start. *
> 
> But the idea that rejecting the open borders approach to refugees would be the first issue that a new anti fash grouping would address just seems all over the shop.
> ...




*Maybe so. But it also needs to be taken on board a) what and who it is you are working in solidarity with, b) how this is perceived by the general public, and c) consider whether increasing the opportunities for the populist and far-right, as a result of taking to the barricades in direct opposition to increasingly large sections of the working class across Europe is a price worth paying - more or less regardless of the consequences? 

Or to put it another way - 'as well a new world in our hearts' as anti-fascists, we must also carry a new world in out heads.*


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## Fozzie Bear (Jun 3, 2016)

Belated support for squaddism from UAF:


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## Fallon (Jun 4, 2016)

*I Spent the 90s Fighting Fascists on the Streets of Warsaw*

I Spent the 90s Fighting Fascists on the Streets of Warsaw | VICE | United Kingdom


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## Anudder Oik (Jun 5, 2016)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Belated support for squaddism from UAF:




This is something I can't understand about groups like the SWP. They abhor squaddism yet love the 43 Group.


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## Pickman's model (Jun 5, 2016)

Anudder Oik said:


> This is something I can't understand about groups like the SWP. They abhor squaddism yet love the 43 Group.


Simple. The more distant something is the more they support it. You should hear them extol 1848


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## The39thStep (Jun 5, 2016)

*P*re expulsion of the squadists the swp heavily printed Joe Jacobs My Life in the Ghetto which was essentially anti Party and pro physical force anti fascism. Post expulsions the book pretty much disappeared and was replaced by Our Flag Stays Red which emphasised political agitation and the party. Both are excellent reads btw.


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## laptop (Jun 5, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Simple. The more distant something is the more they support it. You should hear them extol 1848


They're not so keen on 1649, though.

Nor 1381?


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## Joe Reilly (Jun 18, 2016)

First off let it be said that the attack and the nature of it on a unarmed female MP, just 5ft tall, in the middle of the day is without precedent. In this country anyway. Fascistic certainly. And unmanly at the same time. Beneath contempt. Within hours, and with impressive alacrity, the alleged killers political leanings emerge via an anti-fascist group in America. From closer to home it is also suggested he suffered from a long term mental illness. Hmm, tricky, what to do? Jonathan Freedland came up with the solution suggesting that "if you pour in enough poison someone will get sick".

For the Remain campaign both bases are now covered. If he is fascist all along it is the the Brexit campaign that emboldened him.  If he was sick to begin with it was the Brexit campaign that tipped him over the edge. Hate is what caused it we are told. Mass immigration is vital because the indigenous population aka the 'white working class' are too lazy, stupid, greedy and feckless for business to rely them. But that is not hate.If they have been 'left behind' that is just because they are losers. That's all. But it''s not hate.

 If they are told they have the 'reasoning of the average 10 year old' as one commentator described Trump supporters that is not hate either. Liberals don't hate. Hate is what the other side do. Worst of all they, the other side, are anti-democratic. That is why the attack is widely described 'as an attack on democracy'.   Implying that this murderous lashing out was in revenge as a result of being thwarted by the liberal, anti-racist, democratic majority.

Except, according to all the most recent polls it was the 'other side' -  you know, life's losers- who at the time of the foul murder were actually winning the argument.
At this rate they'll be arguing for the unfortunate Jo Cox to be buried on polling day. Out of you know, respect.

Cameron and Corbyn are calling for 'unity'. Behind them of course. This is the same camp complaining about 'cynicism' and the 'fragility of democracy'.  Mainland Europe is watching carefully. If for whatever reason the Leave lead erodes now there will be profound consequences. If the situation in Europe was deemed dangerous and volatile before, picture what it will be like the day after.


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## butchersapron (Jun 18, 2016)

Joe Reilly said:


> First off let it be said that the attack and the nature of it on a unarmed female MP, just 5ft tall, in the middle of the day is without precedent. In this country anyway. Fascistic certainly. And unmanly at the same time. Beneath contempt. Within hours and with impressive alacrity the alleged killers political leanings emerge via an anti-fascist group in America. From closer to home it is also suggested he suffered from a long term mental illness. Hmm, tricky, what to do? Jonathan Freedland came up with the solution suggesting that "if you pour in enough poison someone will get sick".
> 
> For the Remain campaign both bases are now covered. If he is fascist all along it is the the Brexit campaign that emboldened him  If he was sick to begin with it was the Brexit campaign that tipped him over the edge. Hate is what caused it we are told. Mass immigration is vital because the indigenous population aka the 'white working class' are too lazy, stupid, greedy and feckless for business to rely them. But that is not hate.
> 
> ...


Fantasic


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## framed (Jun 18, 2016)

Is it likely that as a result of this attack on an elected MP - _the reaction to which as you've suggested has been that this an 'attack on liberal democracy' _- the state cracking down on the ideological driving force and groups like Britain First and National Action are put under heavy pressure? This could be achieved without deligitimising the 'democratic far-right' such as UKIP. Clear the militants, leaving the electoral space disassociated from the violent fringe and free for the 'respectable' right to prosper.

Or have I taken that too far?


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## imposs1904 (Jun 18, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Fantasic



give him a like then. you know you want to.


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## framed (Jun 18, 2016)

Britain First for a state ban, anyone?


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## Joe Reilly (Jun 18, 2016)

*"After Jo Cox's Killing, a Heartless but Necessary Market Assessment - pound and euro rallied while gold and government stocks sold off..."*
_
Wall Street Journal_ yesterday, linking a boost in Remain's prospects to Jo Cox's murder.


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## Pickman's model (Jun 18, 2016)

framed said:


> Britain First for a state ban, anyone?


I suspect less a ban than a smashing


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## Red O (Jun 18, 2016)

Joe Reilly said:


> *"After Jo Cox's Killing, a Heartless but Necessary Market Assessment - pound and euro rallied while gold and government stocks sold off..."*
> _
> Wall Street Journal_ yesterday, linking a boost in Remain's prospects to Jo Cox's murder.


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## Idris2002 (Jun 18, 2016)

Red O said:


>



Both within the margin of error. But you know that.


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## Red O (Jun 18, 2016)

Idris2002 said:


> Both within the margin of error. But you know that.



Swing to Remain post-Cox murder is the point. But you know that.


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## Idris2002 (Jun 18, 2016)

Red O said:


> Swing to Remain post-Cox murder is the point. But you know that.


It is known.


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## Magnus McGinty (Jun 23, 2016)

In the event of remain triumphing in the referendum are we likely to see a spike again in EDL-style groups (if not the Neo Nazi ones) like we saw with the murder of Lee Rigby? 
This whole business seems to have normalised racism. Worrying stuff.


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## Joe Reilly (Jun 24, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> In the event of remain triumphing in the referendum are we likely to see a spike again in EDL-style groups (if not the Neo Nazi ones) like we saw with the murder of Lee Rigby.



It cannot be ruled out, but the shift looks more fundamental than that. 

Here and across Europe, the Left has long been on wrong side of the argument, the wrong side of the class divide, and the wrong side of history. 

Near everything else flows from that. 

They fought long and hard for identity politics. 

And in a number of ways the referendum result can be seen as a manifestation of this.


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## krtek a houby (Jun 24, 2016)

Those on the left who voted leave are certainly on the wrong side.


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## Magnus McGinty (Jun 24, 2016)

I must admit, I'm failing to see anything good about this result presently.


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## Joe Reilly (Jun 24, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> Those on the left who voted leave are certainly on the wrong side.



The left envisioned a socialism without the working class, which over time inevitably morphed into a socialism against the working class. The warning lights have been flashing on the European dashboard for decades. Hubris demanded the warnings were ignored. The referendum result is just one of the consequences.


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## Red About Town (Jul 1, 2016)

Tribute to a working class anti fascist from Liverpool who went on to become active in IRSP/INLA in Ireland. Had never heard his name until recently.

Colin from Liverpool was the son of a Presbyterian minister of Irish descent. Colin worked as for the Post office and became involved in politics in his capacity as shop steward. A well-known figure in left-wing and republican politics in his native city, a comrade of Colin’s from Liverpool had this to say of him:

“_I first met him when we were involved in anti-fascist work in Liverpool during the late 70s and early 80s. Along with three other comrades, he was a member of the IRSP Liverpool Support Group. He was very involved in a number of organisations including the Troops Out Movement, the Anti -Nazi League and the Merseyside Anti -Racist Alliance. He was a tall lad, but slightly built. This did not stop him taking part in street fights with members of the National Front and British Movement. On one occasion a fight broke out on Church Street between fascist paper sellers and members of local socialist and anarchist groups. Colin had earlier been enjoying his bottled Guinness in the White Star pub and was on the upper deck of a bus making his way home to his flat in Toxteth. Seeing the fight, Colin ran downstairs and opened the door of the bus by using the emergency handle. He jumped off the bus, ran up the street and thumped one of the fascists. Another time he punched a 'fascist' who ran towards him and when the 'fascist' dropped his radio, Colin realised he had planted an undercover copper. He was arrested after the death of Airey Neave, but released. The police cause quite a bit of damage to his flat. In case anyone is getting the wrong idea, Colin was a gentle lad. He kept hamsters as pets and I never saw lose his temper with anyone. I worked with him when we were sent on a Government Training Scheme in 1979 when we were both unemployed and looking for work in the building trade. I have to admit when I read of his death in The Guardian all those years ago, I cried, which is something I seldom do. He was a good comrade and I'm glad I knew him_”.

Colin later moved to London where he ran the ‘News from Nowhere’ book store. He was greatly involved in left-wing politics and was a popular figure amongst his comrades. Colin had discussed with his friends for some time his desire to offer his services to the Irish Republican Socialist Movement. During the period of the 1980-81 hunger strikes, Colin moved to the Divis flats complex in West Belfast. One can only wonder at the loneliness of Colin during this period, moving into a vacant flat on his own with no assistance from anyone. But his solitary experience did not last as his regular attendance at the numerous protests and pickets during this time gained him the respect and comradeship of the Republican socialist community in Belfast.

Colin joined the Republican Socialist movement and was a prominent figure in the political activity in the Divis flats area. However the constant harassment and raids of the Royal Ulster constabulary forced Colin, like so many others to go on the run. Eventually settling in Dundalk, Colin did not rest from active service and was involved in many operations in the 26 counties. Unfortunately Colin’s luck ran out when he was captured by the Gardaí during an operation in Dundalk. It is testament to his bravery and commitment to the struggle that Colin actually stayed behind during the Garda chase to ensure that his comrades would have a better chance of escape.

During his time in prison Colin had embarked on various protests against the inhumane and degrading treatment of political prisoners in the Free-state. Colin eventually embarked on a hunger strike which later ended. It was soon after that Colin died at 31 years of age. The Free-state authorities have never delivered a credible reason for Colin’s death and how his health and physical was not monitored or treated. As republican socialists know only too well a hunger strike, even if not to the death can cause lasting damage to the participant’s health. The Free-state prison authorities would also have been familiar with this fact so the question must be asked – Why was a political prisoner, recently involved in a hunger strike, neglected in this callous manner? The Free-state government hopes that this issue would quietly be forgotten but as long as the struggle for national liberation and socialism goes on, We will never forget Colin Maguire. The best memorial we can build for Colin is a 32 county workers republic which he so diligently fought for. We remember Colin as a Volunteer, a family member, a prisoner-of-war, a comrade and most importantly a working class man who fought the injustice of capitalist imperialism wherever it presented itself.


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## Magnus McGinty (Jul 3, 2016)

framed said:


> UAF have also mysteriously reappeared in the area as well. Both YRE and UAF have apparently re-emerged in the North East due to the appearance of another more militant anti-fascist outfit. This is exactly the role that YRE played in Glasgow in relation to AFA in the early to mid-1990's. They were set up to directly compete with AFA in Scotland and to muddy the waters. I would view this as a similarly cynical and politically sectarian manoeuvre.
> 
> In other words, the people who revived these front organisations for the SWP and the Socialist Party in the North East are not reacting to any perceived increase in the activity of the fascists, but are in fact reacting to the increased activity of militant anti-fascists.



Hope not Hate now looking at organising nationally. To what ends I don't know.

#MoreInCommon

Edit: also In the guardian.

UK ‘hotspots’ targeted in bid to calm post-Brexit tension


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## Joe Reilly (Jul 3, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Hope not Hate now looking at organising nationally. To what ends I don't know.
> 
> #MoreInCommon



"The toxic nature of the Referendum campaign has released visceral hatred" according to H&H. How very true.

Take this comment from _The Independent_ website.

"Why should the pond life who dragged themselves from their estates to the ballot box, be allowed to ruin it for the rest of us?"

The notion that the manual working class are either "ill-informed" or "ill-equipped" to play a pivotal role in such a national discussion is an anti-democratic sentiment that is suddenly widespread  among leading politicians and mainstream opinion-formers in the media.

Street demonstrations involving the middle classes, and calls for a second referendum, or for parliament to ignore or reverse the result spring from the same sense of anti-democratic entitlement.

That this is often dressed up as anti-racism makes it all the more dangerously pernicious.

If you really want to create a basis for old-school fascism in the 21st century across Europe, then to side with the elite, and allow this widespread disdain for democracy to pass without censure, is a good way to go about it.

So rather than restrict the campaign to chasing down ephemeral 'reports' of a spike in hate crime, if H&H really want to apply themselves to something substantial; if they really want to "isolate the haters", then here is precisely where their campaign would begin.


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## Smokeandsteam (Jul 4, 2016)

Joe Reilly said:


> "
> 
> 
> Street demonstrations involving the middle classes, and calls for a second referendum, or for parliament to ignore or reverse the result spring from the same sense of anti-democratic entitlement.
> ...



Genuine anti-fascism would have called a counter demonstration to the march on Saturday.


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## cantsin (Jul 4, 2016)

Joe Reilly said:


> "The toxic nature of the Referendum campaign has released visceral hatred" according to H&H. How very true.
> 
> Take this comment from _The Independent_ website.
> 
> ...



didn't catch who/ where the stats were coming from, but on Friday, caught the end of a piece on r4 that suggested the rise of actual racial hate crimes was small, the rise in reporting of it / on it =  substantial


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## Magnus McGinty (Jul 4, 2016)

cantsin said:


> didn't catch who/ where the stats were coming from, but on Friday, caught the end of a piece on r4 that suggested the rise of actual racial hate crimes was small, the rise in reporting of it / on it =  substantial



How do they know there's been a rise in reporting hate crime given they don't have figures for what previously hasn't been reported? 
The rise in reporting could easily be due to a rise in offending.


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## Pickman's model (Jul 4, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> How do they know there's been a rise in reporting hate crime given they don't have figures for what previously hasn't been reported?
> The rise in reporting could easily be due to a rise in offending.


Or just a higher proportion of incidents being reported


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## cantsin (Jul 4, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> How do they know there's been a rise in reporting hate crime given they don't have figures for what previously hasn't been reported?
> The rise in reporting could easily be due to a rise in offending.



as i say, caught the end of it, so it's worse than hearsay re; reporting 'of it' - 'reporting on it' undoubtedly has risen hugely as it feeds into the whole broiling mess


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## Joe Reilly (Jul 5, 2016)

cantsin said:


> as i say, caught the end of it, so it's worse than hearsay re; reporting 'of it' - 'reporting on it' undoubtedly has risen hugely as it feeds into the whole broiling mess



For the Remain campaign every "incident" is automatically categorised as "hate crime" which then become "attacks" before being finally rolled up into what Jack Dromey felt able to describe today with a straight face as a frightening post referendum "surge in racial violence".

One example of how an  initial incident comes to be inflated is described in a letter  to the _i. _Under a headline '_report racism when you see it' the writer _describes_ "driving home through a local estate." _

The schools had just ended for the day "_and on one street i saw two boys in school uniform giving Nazi salutes to passing cars."  _He duly reported the incident to the school._ A_nd then reported the school to the local authority. For as John Steed of Nuneaton, puts it: "this behaviour needs to be stamped out."

Either the school of local authority, or more likely both of them, given the febrile atmosphere would have immediately notified  the police. Who would in turn have duly  logged it under the heading "suspected hate crime". _ 
_
Oddly what Mr Steed neglects to tell us is a) what age the school boys were, or b) whether any of the cars occupants were specifically targeted _ and _c) what precisely the "local estate" he happened to be "driving through" had to do with it?  Though in the case of c) I think we can all guess.


_

_


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## Red About Town (Jul 8, 2016)

This may be of some interest to the AFA veterans from the area.

Match Day - Ulster Loyalism And The British Far-Right eBook: Tony Simms: Amazon.ca: Kindle Store

The story of Tony Simms has been kept under lock and key... Until now!!!

This is like no other story you will have read before. Tony Simms has lead a life some people would only dream about, as he leaves no stone unturned.

From his early years following Aston Villa Football Club all over the country, to knowing all the main hooligans down Villa Park, he has many stories to tell.
These include the victory over the Zulu Warriors at Garrison Lane, to his trial at Birmingham Crown Court after a mass brawl with Man United at the Adventures pub.

Tony then progressed into right-wing politics with the National Front, Where he explains about explosive NF Marches, and their deadly clashes with the Anti-Nazi League. He eventually moved onto the BNP, Where he clarifies about the BNP’s push for electoral power in the UK taking on all the mainstream parties and beating them.

Further on down the line Tony got involved with the loyalist paramilitaries of the U.D.A, where you get a first hand account of the rise and fall of Johnny Adair, And the untimely death of Brigadier John "Grugg" Gregg. By now Tony had linked up with and befriended some of the deadliest terrorists in Northern Ireland.
This is the one Book I’d recommend for anybody trying to understand the links between British Nationalism and Ulster loyalism. This story is not for the faint hearted, and told only as Tony Simms could tell it.

It is gripping and sometimes disturbing as he explains the controversy surrounding "the Troubles" in loyal Ulster.

Buckle down and get ready for the ride of your life!!!


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## DaveCinzano (Jul 8, 2016)

Red About Town said:


> This may be of some interest to the AFA veterans from the area.
> 
> Match Day - Ulster Loyalism And The British Far-Right eBook: Tony Simms: Amazon.ca: Kindle Store
> 
> ...



Looks a doozie


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 8, 2016)

Should tie in nicely with White Riot, which I'm currently reading.


----------



## Red O (Jul 31, 2016)

Interview with the academic Evan Smith in the Weekly Worker on his forthcoming book 'British Communism and the Politics of Race', From Powell to Brexit - Weekly Worker:

*How do you evaluate the anti-fascism presented by the Anti-Nazi League at the end of the 1970s and later by Unite Against Fascism? Was its politically ‘broad’, popular front-styled approach adequate to combat racism and street fascism?
*
I do understand the critique made by the likes of Red Action and Anti-Fascist Action - ie, that the Anti-Nazi League was far too broad-based to fight some of the more extreme elements of the far right. What I think the ANL did very well was to break away support in that nebulous zone between the Tories and the NF - a place today occupied by the likes of Ukip. In my view, the ANL was part of the reason why support for the NF declined as massively as it did within a two- or three-year period.

However, as the National Front split in the early 1980s, it changed its strategy and became all about street violence, and the ANL was not the best vehicle to counter that. Nonetheless, it did succeed in creating an anti-racist consciousness among that generation of British youth.

*
The gentrification of the left and its inability to engage with the manual working class was criticised at the time by the likes of Red Action, which I think was justified. However, the political groups that emerged out of Red Action and AFA - such as the Independent Working Class Association - then indulged in a twisted workerism that ‘takes real concerns about immigration seriously’. It’s a slippery slope.*

Indeed. What we often have today is people saying that ‘we need to talk about the white working class’ and that there are ‘real concerns about immigration’. One side of this is that one does need to understand what people are concerned about - but the slope to giving credence to racist and anti-immigration sentiments is certainly very slippery.

As Richard Seymour observed on his blog, _Lenin’s Tomb_, the ‘white working class’ is seen in the relevant discussions of the Labour right in terms of being white: ie, white British people who happen to be working class. Their agency as workers is completely removed, and their lack of agency fixated on their whiteness. While people like Andy Burnham or Owen Smith talk about the white working class, they would really prefer to talk about a white lumpenproletariat, devoid of any agency and differentiated only by being white. They are spoken of in terms of being victims, including in the rhetoric employed in the wake of the European Union referendum: they are people who have no voice and no agency, so the Brexit protest vote is all they had. It’s dangerous to look at them as an apolitical mass.


*In his infamous speech, Powell lamented the “growth of positive forces acting against integration, of vested interests in the preservation and sharpening of racial and religious differences”. Today, in contrast, there seem to be two contending bourgeois ideologies: the pro-integration one that never quite places immigrants above suspicion of constituting a fifth column; and, on the other hand, multiculturalism - separate ethnic communities to which the state communicates through ‘community leaders’. These days, the left tends to defend multiculturalism against the idea of integration. Is that not parasitic on bourgeois discourse - and does the working class not have a long-term interest in integration?*

The way integration operated, migrants had to abandon their cultures and assimilate into white British society, so you can see how progressive multiculturalism came about as a reaction to it - in the same way that identity politics is about experiences outside the dominant paradigm. However, as the likes of Red Action criticised, multiculturalism can separate people into essentialised groups.

Also, as is the case with official anti-racism, people like Cameron may celebrate something innocuous like chicken tikka masala, but not necessarily other aspects of migrant culture. So, while multiculturalism is a way of being officially non-racist, the left has taken to defending it because this multiculturalism is undermined by the way parts of the state act in a racially discriminatory fashion.


----------



## inva (Aug 1, 2016)

on the one hand we shouldn't take concerns about immigration seriously but on the other hand we should? I'm confused anyway.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Aug 1, 2016)

Red O said:


> Interview with the academic Evan Smith in the Weekly Worker on his forthcoming book 'British Communism and the Politics of Race', From Powell to Brexit - Weekly Worker:
> 
> *How do you evaluate the anti-fascism presented by the Anti-Nazi League at the end of the 1970s and later by Unite Against Fascism? Was its politically ‘broad’, popular front-styled approach adequate to combat racism and street fascism?
> *
> ...




Weekly Worker attacks the IWCA that takes 'real concerns about immigration seriously'. The alternatives are to begin by dismissing such concerns out of hand. Then dismiss the possible consequences of dismissing the concerns.
Then dismiss the prospects of the obvious political forces most likely to benefit from the high-handedness. All these adaptions accurately can be found in what passes for analysis in WW over quarter of a century.
In all that time they have never to knowledge lifted a finger.  Along with liberalism across Europe they busied themselves striking poses while the far-right take power. Which is one reason why for first time since the second world war, a European country is soon likely to have a fascist as head of state. Austrian liberals will no doubt adapt/capitulate to that too. This is a slippery slope of a different type. And at rock bottom the sort of Vichy type anti-fascism that is the inevitable consequence of the politics WW represents.


----------



## inva (Aug 1, 2016)

Red O said:


> One side of this is that one does need to understand what people are concerned about - but the slope to giving credence to racist and anti-immigration sentiments is certainly very slippery.


I have to laugh at this from Evan Smith. I mean this idea of giving 'credence', as if anti immigration sentiment doesn't already have credence for millions of people and as if the left is in any kind of position to either bestow this credence or withhold it. So there's a need to understand but what exactly should be done with that understanding? Perhaps after all we should just lump together racist and anti-immigration views and then brush all those people off and refuse to engage, hoping if we ignore it it'll go away, while conceding the ground to the right.


----------



## Red About Town (Aug 3, 2016)

Quite catchy this..


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Aug 3, 2016)

.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Aug 3, 2016)

B-Side not bad either


----------



## Red About Town (Sep 17, 2016)

*Battle of Waterloo – 24th Anniversary*
Battle of Waterloo – 24th Anniversary |


----------



## Red About Town (Sep 19, 2016)

Red About Town said:


> This may be of some interest to the AFA veterans from the area.
> 
> Match Day - Ulster Loyalism And The British Far-Right eBook: Tony Simms: Amazon.ca: Kindle Store
> 
> ...



This book is now free to download on Amazon Kindle.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Sep 29, 2016)

Approximately 15 years ago militant anti-fascists called for a government special fund to help alleviate (and as a goodwill gesture) the additional hardship in working class areas as a direct result of immigration. The Left, otherwise engaged in covering estates in 'Refugees Welcome Here!' posters (usually under the cover of darkness) simply  scoffed.  Now even Jeremy has come around to to idea. But Brexit was a game-changer. So all in all, a bit late in the day for the old beads and mirrors now.


----------



## Red Sky (Sep 29, 2016)

Joe Reilly said:


> Approximately 15 years ago...The Left, otherwise engaged in covering estates in 'Refugees Welcome Here!' posters (usually under the cover of darkness) simply  scoffed.  Now even Jeremy has come around to to idea. But Brexit was a game-changer. So all in all, a bit late in the day for the old beads and mirrors now.



Was "the Left' really covering estates with the slogan 'Refugees Welcome Here' posters fifteen years ago?


----------



## chilango (Sep 29, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> Was "the Left' really covering estates with the slogan 'Refugees Welcome Here' posters fifteen years ago?



Yes.

A LOT.

(Actually, it peaked about 20 years ago more accurately)


----------



## Red Sky (Sep 29, 2016)

chilango said:


> Yes.
> 
> A LOT.
> 
> (Actually, it peaked about 20 years ago more accurately)


 I've come across the slogan in the last two or three years, mainly as a result of the mass exodus from Syria. 

Which part of the Left was saying it fifteen or twenty years ago?


----------



## chilango (Sep 29, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> I've come across the slogan in the last two or three years, mainly as a result of the mass exodus from Syria.
> 
> Which part of the Left was saying it fifteen or twenty years ago?



The ANL/SWP


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 29, 2016)

Labour did introduce such a fund in 2008, then only funded it with a totally inadequate 50 million. The Tories got rid of it entirely in 2010.


----------



## Red Sky (Sep 29, 2016)

chilango said:


> The ANL/SWP



With that slogan? Were they not a straight anti BNP campaign at the time?


----------



## chilango (Sep 29, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> With that slogan? Were they not a straight anti BNP campaign at the time?



Yep. Nope, well, sorta.

I have a clear recollection of those posters going up in estates in South Wales c. 92-95.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 29, 2016)

chilango said:


> Yep. Nope, well, sorta.
> 
> I have a clear recollection of those posters going up in estates in South Wales c. 92-95.


And Scotland.


----------



## Red Sky (Sep 29, 2016)

chilango said:


> Yep. Nope, well, sorta.
> 
> I have a clear recollection of those posters going up in estates in South Wales c. 92-95.



So "Refugees Welcome Here" is a revived slogan? Interesting.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 29, 2016)

If you can find any archives or archived discussions from/about the Socialist Alliance - the old UKLN for example, you'll see use of the slogan being battled out. And on here too if you look around 2001-2.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 29, 2016)

Joe Reilly said:


> Approximately 15 years ago militant anti-fascists called for a government special fund to help alleviate (and as a goodwill gesture) the additional hardship in working class areas as a direct result of immigration. The Left, otherwise engaged in covering estates in 'Refugees Welcome Here!' posters (usually under the cover of darkness) simply  scoffed.  Now even Jeremy has come around to to idea. But Brexit was a game-changer. So all in all, a bit late in the day for the old beads and mirrors now.



Corbyn had also won widespread praise - from business leaders, members of the liberal commenteriat, Blairites and the 'left' alike for his 'brave' open borders position and his view that a deal can be done to raise wages across the EU.


----------



## Red O (Oct 1, 2016)

Copsey, 'Who owns the 'Battle of Cable Street'?', www.historymatters.group.shef.ac.uk/owns-battle-cable-street/

'More interesting still is the way in which post-war anti-fascist groups adopted the myth of Cable Street as a weapon _against_ the Communist Party’s subsequent retreat from militant anti-fascism. One early example comes from 1948, from Ted Grant of the Revolutionary Communist Party (RCP). As the Mosleyites re-emerged after the war, encountering street opposition in the ‘Battle of Ridley Road’, the Trotskyite RCP invoked the memory of Cable Street in order to condemn the CP’s discouragement of militant action which Grant argued came about after 1936 as a consequence of their adoption of the popular front – ‘a united front with Tories and Liberals’. So when the BUF held its largest indoor rally (at Earl’s Court) in 1939, London’s Young Communist League ‘organised a ramble in the countryside!’ instead.

'Three decades later and it was the turn of another Trotskyite organisation, the Socialist Workers’ Party (SWP), to invoke the memory Cable Street – once again against the anti-fascist policy of the CP. In 1977, before a violent anti-NF mobilisation in Lewisham (dubbed the ‘Battle of Lewisham’) the SWP distributed ‘They Shall Not Pass’ leaflets. SWP militants then led the way in leaving the NF battered and bruised, ‘with fascists running in blind panic’.

'The SWP would then become the mainstay of the Anti-Nazi League (ANL). Later, in the 1990s, it would be militants from Anti-Fascist Action (AFA) who would decry the SWP/ANL for abandoning militant anti-fascism. For AFA, the key episode that embodied their dedication to the honourable tradition of Cable Street (which the SWP/ANL had betrayed) was the ‘Battle of Waterloo’, not the battle in 1815 but the one between AFA and ‘Blood and Honour’ skinheads at Waterloo train station in September 1992.'


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 1, 2016)

Red O said:


> Copsey, 'Who owns the 'Battle of Cable Street'?', www.historymatters.group.shef.ac.uk/owns-battle-cable-street/
> 
> 'More interesting still is the way in which post-war anti-fascist groups adopted the myth of Cable Street as a weapon _against_ the Communist Party’s subsequent retreat from militant anti-fascism. One early example comes from 1948, from Ted Grant of the Revolutionary Communist Party (RCP). As the Mosleyites re-emerged after the war, encountering street opposition in the ‘Battle of Ridley Road’, the Trotskyite RCP invoked the memory of Cable Street in order to condemn the CP’s discouragement of militant action which Grant argued came about after 1936 as a consequence of their adoption of the popular front – ‘a united front with Tories and Liberals’. So when the BUF held its largest indoor rally (at Earl’s Court) in 1939, London’s Young Communist League ‘organised a ramble in the countryside!’ instead.
> 
> ...


I always remember both the Waterloo days (18/6 and 12/9)


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 1, 2016)

Red O said:


> Copsey, 'Who owns the 'Battle of Cable Street'?', www.historymatters.group.shef.ac.uk/owns-battle-cable-street/
> 
> 'More interesting still is the way in which post-war anti-fascist groups adopted the myth of Cable Street as a weapon _against_ the Communist Party’s subsequent retreat from militant anti-fascism. One early example comes from 1948, from Ted Grant of the Revolutionary Communist Party (RCP). As the Mosleyites re-emerged after the war, encountering street opposition in the ‘Battle of Ridley Road’, the Trotskyite RCP invoked the memory of Cable Street in order to condemn the CP’s discouragement of militant action which Grant argued came about after 1936 as a consequence of their adoption of the popular front – ‘a united front with Tories and Liberals’. So when the BUF held its largest indoor rally (at Earl’s Court) in 1939, London’s Young Communist League ‘organised a ramble in the countryside!’ instead.
> 
> ...


Despite the CPs official position CP members and the YCL were involved physical opposition  in Ridley Road and other sites where the flash were active. The CP didn't hold back from militant action against the RCP either.


----------



## Red Sky (Oct 1, 2016)

The article continues ..."Jump forward into the present and this contested legacy is still very much with us today: for militant anti-fascists in the Anti-Fascist Network (AFN), Cable Street was a victory for working-class solidarity, mass direct action and community self-defence. Are these _really_ the same principles that underpinned the recent anti-BNP strategy of organisations like Unite Against Fascism? "


----------



## Nice one (Oct 4, 2016)

The39thStep said:


> Despite the CPs official position CP members and the YCL were involved physical opposition  in Ridley Road and other sites where the flash were active. The CP didn't hold back from militant action against the RCP either.



damn those racist superheroes


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 4, 2016)

If you don't have a copy of this book yet the IWCA are giving away 5 copies to mark the 80th anniversary of the Battle of Cable Street. 

Further info on the IWCA Facebook page.


----------



## Ho Chi Ming (Oct 4, 2016)

Smokeandsteam said:


> If you don't have a copy of this book yet the IWCA are giving away 5 copies to mark the 80th anniversary of the Battle of Cable Street.
> 
> Further info on the IWCA Facebook page.



Pretty good odds of bagging a copy so far.


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 4, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> The article continues ..."Jump forward into the present and this contested legacy is still very much with us today: for militant anti-fascists in the Anti-Fascist Network (AFN), Cable Street was a victory for working-class solidarity, mass direct action and community self-defence. Are these _really_ the same principles that underpinned the recent anti-BNP strategy of organisations like Unite Against Fascism? "


Nope , but also remember that Cable Street was a success because of the years of graft that the CP put into both community and national politics as well as opposition to the fascists without that there wouldn't have been the mobilisation there was.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 4, 2016)

From the IWCA Facebook page:

Today is the 80th anniversary of the Battle of Cable Street, where an attempted 3,000 strong march through the East End of London by the British Union of Fascists, under police protection, was forcibly prevented and broken up by thousands of fighting anti-fascists and upwards of one hundred thousand demonstrators. It remains the most significant single domestic episode in the history of British anti-fascism.

Cable Street was not a spontaneous, apolitical revolt by salt-of-the-earth Londoners outraged at the presence of fascist provocateurs in their midst. The driving force was working class militants – largely, but by no means exclusively, within the Communist Party - armed with a class analysis, rooted in their own communities and often working against prevailing ‘left’ structures. Within the Communist Party itself, the leadership were hell bent on having a demonstration in support of the Spanish Republic at Trafalgar Square on the day, but rank and file pressure forced them to change plans at the eleventh hour to defend the East End. The Labour Party’s role in Cable Street is predictably shameful: its representatives at the time tried to persuade anti-fascists to stay away from the demo, and Herbert Morrison – then leader of London County Council, and Home Secretary four years later - afterwards condemned anti-fascists alongside fascists for causing the trouble, while praising the police for their actions.

Despite this, Labour are front and centre in the official Cable Street commemoration, along with their conservative anti-fascist allies and apolitical ethnic/religious grouplets: elements that oppose fascism not because it threatens the working class, but because it threatens the status quo. One wonders what the activists of ’36 would make of this, or how the result might have turned out had the anti-fascist forces been so constituted back then.

Surveying the scene now, we see every possibility of Europe seeing the election of its first far-right head of state since 1945 in Austria in December, Marine Le Pen consistently leading the polling for the first round of the 2017 French Presidential election, UKIP eating into Labour’s core vote in England and Wales, the AfD as the biggest working class party in Berlin and the populist right climbing all over the furniture across northern, western and central Europe. The financial crash of 2008 and subsequent chronic economic crisis has stripped the political centre of its vestigial credibility, but it is the right who are filling the vacuum in working class political representation. The antecedents of the IWCA had as their mission statement ‘to oppose fascism physically and ideologically’. Cable Street was one of the inspirations for the physical struggle, a struggle that has been won – for now. If the current wave of populist nationalism is to be beaten back, the struggle now has to be political: no less than to reconstitute the working class as a political fighting force and the prime agent of radical political change, independent, democratic and beholden to no-one but itself. The challenge is considerable, but the risks of failing to meet it are clear.


----------



## Red Sky (Oct 4, 2016)

Smokeandsteam said:


> From the IWCA Facebook page:
> 
> Today is the 80th anniversary of the Battle of Cable Street, where an attempted 3,000 strong march through the East End of London by the British Union of Fascists, under police protection, was forcibly prevented and broken up by thousands of fighting anti-fascists and upwards of one hundred thousand demonstrators. It remains the most significant single domestic episode in the history of British anti-fascism.
> 
> ...



The physical struggle has been won? That's great news. What happened?


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 4, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> The physical struggle has been won? That's great news. What happened?


The quote is 



> Cable Street was one of the inspirations for the physical struggle, a struggle that has been won – for now



Any reason you chose to misrepresent it?


----------



## Red Sky (Oct 4, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> The quote is
> 
> 
> 
> Any reason you chose to misrepresent it?



Misrepresent how? If I've misunderstood the meaning then please let me kniw.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 4, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> Misrepresent how? If I've misunderstood the meaning then please let me kniw.


I'll certainly let you kniw. Your cutting of the quote suggests that the analysis offered is one of peaceful co-existence, of a  pacified anti-fascism. As opposed to your militant anti-fascism. Which, of course means ignoring the whole point about politics that the piece was seeking to make.


----------



## Red Sky (Oct 4, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> I'll certainly let you kniw. Your cutting of the quote suggests that the analysis offered is one of peaceful co-existence, of a  pacified anti-fascism. As opposed to your militant anti-fascism. Which, of course means ignoring the whole point about politics that the piece was seeking to make.


Tell you what - I'll do my side of the argument. You do yours. The piece, which I broadly agree with, says that the physical struggle is over - do you think that that is the case?


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 4, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> Tell you what - I'll do my side of the argument. You do yours. The piece, which I broadly agree with, says that the physical struggle is over - do you think that that is the case?


Tell you what, tell me why you cut off 'for now'?

Of course the physical fight against organised fascist groups as an/the main ongoing political imperative  - rather than silly set-pieces with flags and anti-brexit stickers - has been won. For now.


----------



## Red Sky (Oct 4, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Tell you what, tell me why you cut off 'for now'?
> 
> Of course the physical fight against organised fascist groups as an/the main ongoing political imperative  - rather than silly set-pieces with flags and anti-brexit stickers - has been won. For now.


Aaah so opposing fascist demos is 'silly' now. 

I didn't cut off anything, because I wasn't directly quoting the article.


----------



## Ho Chi Ming (Oct 4, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> The physical struggle has been won? That's great news. What happened?


It might advance the discussion if you could expand upon your implication that the physical battle against fascism rages on.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 4, 2016)

There's always someone  that people have to point the finger as at having given up, as not being militant enough isn't there? I can see that's a group building thing, but...is it true? Is it accurate? Coherent? Corresponding to reality? I don't think so, and i don't think that you can if you largely agree with the piece but think they have 'given up' or abandoned the anti-rascism that motivated the formation and activity of the group. Which is what cutting off the for now' does.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 4, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> Aaah so opposing fascist demos is 'silly' now.
> 
> I didn't cut off anything, because I wasn't directly quoting the article.


There we go - that's all you wanted to say. Something about Dover, etc


----------



## Red Sky (Oct 4, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> There's always someone  that people have to point the finger as at having given up, as not being militant enough isn't there? I can see that's a group building thing, but...is it true? Is it accurate? Coherent? Corresponding to reality? I don't think so, and i don't think that you can if you largely agree with the piece but think they have 'given up' or abandoned the anti-rascism that motivated the formation and activity of the group. Which is what cutting off the for now' does.


Ffs - you're putting words in my mouth. Who did I say had 'given up'?


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 4, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> Aaah so opposing fascist demos is 'silly' now.
> 
> I didn't cut off anything, because I wasn't directly quoting the article.


You paraphrased it and left off what constituted a large part of the argument. It was not a well intentioned cut-off either.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 4, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> Ffs - you're putting words in my mouth. Who did I say had 'given up'?


That's what cutting off/leaving out one of the key parts in your paraphrase does.


----------



## Red Sky (Oct 4, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> You paraphrased it and left off what constituted a large part of the argument. It was not a well intentioned cut-off either.


You're either very touchy or plain paranoid. 

So to take you up on the whole 'Dover' thing - was that a 'silly set piece'?


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 4, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> You're either very touchy or plain paranoid.
> 
> So to take you up on the whole 'Dover' thing - was that a 'silly set piece'?


It was the definition of set-piece. 

Now, do you agree with me that "the physical fight against organised fascist groups as an/the main ongoing political imperative - rather than silly set-pieces with flags and anti-brexit stickers - has been won. For now." You said that you wanted the argument. So get cracking. If you do agree then your post above which suggest otherwise look a but daft. If you don't then get cracking.


----------



## Red Sky (Oct 4, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> It was the definition of set-piece.
> 
> Now, do you agree with me that "the physical fight against organised fascist groups as an/the main ongoing political imperative - rather than silly set-pieces with flags and anti-brexit stickers - has been won. For now." You said that you wanted the argument. So get cracking. If you do agree then your post above which suggest otherwise look a but daft. If you don't then get cracking.



No - and it wasn't the main ongoing political imperative in the 80s either. It was however a necessary struggle as it is today. Are you suggesting that we refrain from physical resistance until it does become the main imperative?


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 4, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> No - and it wasn't the main ongoing political imperative in the 80s either. It was however a necessary struggle as it is today. Are you suggesting that we refrain from physical resistance until it does become the main imperative?


Yep, here go:



> There's always someone that people have to point the finger as at having given up, as not being militant enough isn't there? I can see that's a group building thing, but...is it true? Is it accurate? Coherent? Corresponding to reality? I don't think so, and i don't think that you can if you largely agree with the piece but think they have 'given up' or abandoned the anti-rascism that motivated the formation and activity of the group. Which is what cutting off the for now' does.



Like swiss fucking clockwork.


----------



## Red Sky (Oct 4, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Yep, here go:
> 
> 
> 
> Like swiss fucking clockwork.


Mental.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 4, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> No - and it wasn't the main ongoing political imperative in the 80s either. It was however a necessary struggle as it is today. Are you suggesting that we refrain from physical resistance until it does become the main imperative?


What do you think i mean by the main ongoing political imperative?


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 4, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> Mental.


Enjoy your stickers.


----------



## Red Sky (Oct 4, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Enjoy your stickers.


Mental


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 4, 2016)

I think this might indicate one reason why any political response - to fill the vacuum  to use a phrase - never happened. Anti-fascist fetishism.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 4, 2016)

_Mental_


----------



## Red Sky (Oct 4, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> I think this might indicate one reason why any political response - to fill the vacuum  to use a phrase - never happened. Anti-fascist fetishism.


So today's crop of fetishistic, sticker wielding, silly anti fascists are to blame for your generations failure to 'fill the vacuum' politically twenty five years ago?


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 4, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> So today's crop of fetishistic, sticker wielding, silly anti fascists are to blame for your generations failure to 'fill the vacuum' politically twenty five years ago?





> There's always someone that people have to point the finger as at having given up, as not being militant enough isn't there? I can see that's a group building thing, but...is it true? Is it accurate? Coherent? Corresponding to reality? I don't think so, and i don't think that you can if you largely agree with the piece but think they have 'given up' or abandoned the anti-rascism that motivated the formation and activity of the group. Which is what cutting off the for now' does.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Oct 4, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> So today's crop of fetishistic, sticker wielding, silly anti fascists are to blame for your generations failure to 'fill the vacuum' politically twenty five years ago?



Not you personally, the ideas you espouse. Don't be so touchy.


----------



## Red Sky (Oct 4, 2016)

SpackleFrog said:


> Not you personally, the ideas you espouse. Don't be so touchy.


What ideas that I espouse?


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 4, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> What ideas that I espouse?


Indeed.


----------



## Red Sky (Oct 4, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Indeed.


Good one.


----------



## Red Sky (Oct 4, 2016)

Ho Chi Ming said:


> It might advance the discussion if you could expand upon your implication that the physical battle against fascism rages on.



It's definitely the case that the last 18 months have seen a decrease in far right street activity. The decline of the EDL to just one among a handful of splinter groups rather than main source of far-right activism. What the EDL did achieve, albeit unintentionally, was to open the door to the re-emergence of neo -Nazi street activity. That has been the main focus of anti fascists (with variable results) since around Spring last year. There are a dedicated handful of volk trying to get a viable fascist street movement off the ground. They are aiming at the physical control of the streets and anti fascists are aiming to disrupt that.

So, in that time, off the top of my head, we've had Dover (four times? Five?) , Manchester twice at least, Liverpool of course and now just last weekend Berwick.


----------



## Red Sky (Oct 4, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> There's always someone  that people have to point the finger as at having given up, as not being militant enough isn't there? I can see that's a group building thing, but...is it true? Is it accurate? Coherent? Corresponding to reality? I don't think so, and i don't think that you can if you largely agree with the piece but think they have 'given up' or abandoned the anti-rascism that motivated the formation and activity of the group. Which is what cutting off the for now' does.


I think this a classic illustration of the paranoia that lefty sectarianism breeds. Who is  pointing fingers? Where have they done it?


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## butchersapron (Oct 4, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> I think this a classic illustration of the paranoia that lefty sectarianism breeds. Who is  pointing fingers? Where have they done it?


You. Above. And in manyy other posts. And supported by the 'giving up militant anti-fascism' stuff that's appeared on here so often (see the shitty edl thread). This is precisely what cutting off the 'for now' did. it foreclosed on any response on the part of the IWCA and people supporting that approach right now and drew a line between you and your stickers and everyone else.


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## Red Sky (Oct 4, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> You. Above. And in manyy other posts. And supported by the 'giving up militant anti-fascism' stuff that's appeared on here so often (see the shitty edl thread). This is precisely what cutting off the 'for now' did. it foreclosed on any response on the part of the IWCA and people supporting that approach right now and drew a line between you and your stickers and everyone else.


If you actually look at the published and social media output of any of the AFN groups you will find that AFA and Red Action are celebrated not denigrated. Now is a good time to look actually 'cos everyone's on about Cable st. I've no idea why you're so keen to get offended.


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## butchersapron (Oct 4, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> If you actually look at the published and social media output of any of the AFN groups you will find that AFA and Red Action are celebrated not denigrated. Now is a good time to look actually 'cos everyone's on about Cable st. I've no idea why you're so keen to get offended.


Why should i have to look at the social media output of those groups to respond to your clearly sarky post that involved toy cutting off a key point  your paraphrase? Ep when you just wanted to say dover. Again.


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## Red Sky (Oct 4, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Why should i have to look at the social media output of those groups to respond to your clearly sarky post that involved toy cutting off a key point  your paraphrase? Ep when you just wanted to say dover. Again.


Mental


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## butchersapron (Oct 4, 2016)

Maybe i do have it wrong - maybe you didn't mean anything at all when you posted:



> The physical struggle has been won? That's great news. What happened?



Maybe there wasn't overt sarcasm at the suggestion and an implied criticism of the analysis that might follow from that and consequent support of another approach. I don't know maybe i am just being touchy/mental/old.


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## butchersapron (Oct 4, 2016)

Makes me wonder if you're posting nothing, why you're posting nothing.


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## chilango (Oct 4, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> Mental.





Red Sky said:


> Mental





Red Sky said:


> Mental



Really?

You think that's appropriate?

C'mon.


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## chilango (Oct 4, 2016)

...and to address the poInt it's vital to appreciate that the main threat the far-right is posing now is primarily political rather than primarily physical. That is a very different proposition (the opposite in fact) from the AFA period and requires a different response.

Surely that's blindingly obvious?


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## Red Sky (Oct 4, 2016)

chilango said:


> ...and to address the poInt it's vital to appreciate that the main threat the far-right is posing now is primarily political rather than primarily physical. That is a very different proposition (the opposite in fact) from the AFA period and requires a different response.
> 
> Surely that's blindingly obvious?



Fascism and its variants have always operated a twin track policy, both political and physical. Arguably Moseley marching in the East End was a physical response to a failure to take power politically. When the BNP failed on the streets they took to the ballot box. When that ground to a halt , nationalism reasserted itself on the streets in the form of the EDL and electorally with UKIP. Anti fascism has to adapt.


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## Ho Chi Ming (Oct 4, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> ...nationalism reasserted itself on the streets in the form of the EDL[...] Anti fascism has to adapt.



I'm all for keeping the sport of knocking fascists on their arses alive but, really?


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## SpackleFrog (Oct 4, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> What ideas that I espouse?



Sorry, you're right, you don't espouse ideas, you fetishise Militant Anti Fascism and ignore everything else.




Red Sky said:


> There are a dedicated handful of volk trying to get a viable fascist street movement off the ground. They are aiming at the physical control of the streets and anti fascists are aiming to disrupt that.



And if you weren't following this dedicated handful of misfits round the country do you think they would succeed?


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## malatesta32 (Oct 4, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> With that slogan? Were they not a straight anti BNP campaign at the time?



ANL was dismantled and merged into UAF in 2003 and harried the BNP over next few years. 
re: post-AFA, the date is somewhere between 2000 and 2003, with the last issue of Fighting Talk. Scots RA chum on here said that Glesgae militants were 'still doing anti-fash stuff, as and when needed.' 
militants had organised No Platform then Antifa which got bogged down in legal bother and some jail time. 
UAF were 1st on the EDL. it took militant AFs a while to mobilise around Anti-Fascist Network which emerged, 2010-11 (?).


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## malatesta32 (Oct 4, 2016)

Red About Town said:


> This book is now free to download on Amazon Kindle.


is any good? its pretty big but is it soccer brag or useful antifash info?


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## Pickman's model (Oct 4, 2016)

malatesta32 said:


> Antifa which got bogged down in legal bother and some jail time.


Yeh like the period 2004-2009 never happened.


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## Red Sky (Oct 4, 2016)

SpackleFrog said:


> Sorry, you're right, you don't espouse ideas, you fetishise Militant Anti Fascism and ignore everything else.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is a thread about anti fascism so I talk about anti fascism on it.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 4, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> This is a thread about anti fascism so I talk about anti fascism on it.


Yeh but urban's through the looking glass.


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## malatesta32 (Oct 4, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh like the period 2004-2009 never happened.


ive not been able to get much info on NP or Antifa (2004-8?)as they werent organised like AFA with mags, journals etc  or AFN, and certainly wouldnt want to broadcast activities. which is shit for researchers!!!


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## malatesta32 (Oct 4, 2016)

last weekend would imply fash are in bits. 
boston, soton etc, no shows and 20 odd turn up. NF split, BNP impotent, NWI in jail, Nat Action tiny. there are still quite a few in North East England.


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## Red About Town (Oct 4, 2016)

malatesta32 said:


> is any good? its pretty big but is it soccer brag or useful antifash info?



Terrible. Avoid. 
Not the hoolie bragging book you might think either


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## DrRingDing (Oct 5, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Makes me wonder if you're posting nothing, why you're posting nothing.



Forget about our beef for a second. What do you think hard working antifascists will make of that statement?


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## DrRingDing (Oct 5, 2016)

....and I may well be wrong but I thouht i read the CP still went to Trafalgar Square and it was only CP members that defied orders that went to Cable Street.


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## belboid (Oct 5, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> hard working antifascists


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## belboid (Oct 5, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> ....and I may well be wrong but I thouht i read the CP still went to Trafalgar Square and it was only CP members that defied orders that went to Cable Street.


You might well have read it, but the author was wrong, if so.


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## chilango (Oct 5, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> Forget about our beef for a second. What do you think hard working antifascists will make of that statement?



I dunno.

Are they part of hard-working families?


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## malatesta32 (Oct 5, 2016)

the CP had organised a rally in support of spain and had handbills printed up which were then printed over and they rallied in cable st to fight with plod, not fash. there is an image of a handbill somewhere (Hann? )


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## SpackleFrog (Oct 5, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> This is a thread about anti fascism so I talk about anti fascism on it.



Actually it's a thread about a book about anti-fascism. And you've been talking about Dover. Which isn't in the book.


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## The39thStep (Oct 5, 2016)

malatesta32 said:


> the CP had organised a rally in support of spain and had handbills printed up which were then printed over and they rallied in cable st to fight with plod, not fash. there is an image of a handbill somewhere (Hann? )


THE BATTLE OF CABLE STREET


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## The39thStep (Oct 5, 2016)

Short but makes some interesting points about Cable Street and its legacy.( also has a quote from a poster on here named in footnotes) 
Who owns the ‘Battle of Cable Street’?


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## eoin_k (Oct 5, 2016)

malatesta32 said:


> the CP had organised a rally in support of spain and had handbills printed up which were then printed over and they rallied in cable st to fight with plod, not fash. there is an image of a handbill somewhere (Hann? )



Joe Jacobs's _Out of the Ghetto _includes a CP handbill for Cable Street printed over with a rally in Hyde Park.


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## Joe Reilly (Oct 5, 2016)

SpackleFrog said:


> Actually it's a thread about a book about anti-fascism. And you've been talking about Dover. Which isn't in the book.



To which Red Sky must surely reply: "What book?"


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## chilango (Oct 5, 2016)

Joe Reilly said:


> To which Red Sky must surely reply: "What book?"



The one displayed prominently on their bookshelf, yet with no crease in the spine...

(Sorry Red Sky)


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## DrRingDing (Oct 5, 2016)

chilango said:


> ...and to address the poInt it's vital to appreciate that the main threat the far-right is posing now is primarily political rather than primarily physical.



How do you think that is maintained? Do you think battering some fash in the 90s was sufficient for forever and a day. 

I totally reject butchersapron aspersion that militant antifascism these days is only set pieces. That's the only bit that he hears about. What really goes on is little different than what went on yesteryear and is vital work in a keeping the opposition in their place.


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## chilango (Oct 5, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> How do you think that is maintained? Do you think battering some fash in the 90s was sufficient for forever and a day.
> 
> I totally reject butchersapron aspersion that militant antifascism these days is only set pieces. That's the only bit that he hears about. What really goes on is little different than what went on yesteryear and is vital work in a keeping the opposition in their place.



How do I think what is maintained?

The far-right's preference for political rather than physical strategies at the moment?


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## DrRingDing (Oct 5, 2016)

chilango said:


> How do I think what is maintained?
> 
> The far-right's preference for political rather than physical strategies at the moment?



Maintaining the fash under the cosh.

Who's the far-right in your mind?

SEA, NWI, NA, NF, BM, P&M?

I think you're a bit behind the times. We've seen a total rejection by many far-right groups of the electoral strategy recently. This has allowed them to free themselves of the pretense of not being boneheads. This has meant a sharp rise in violence both of the set pieces BA mocks and much more away from the headlines.

BTW the physical is political.


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## planetgeli (Oct 5, 2016)

Set pieces? What's wrong with a free kick at fascists? I'm a bit old to play the game (to continue the metaphor) these days but all power to those that can and do.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 5, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> Maintaining the fash under the cosh.
> 
> Who's the far-right in your mind?
> 
> ...


i think you should pay more attention  to the sea if you think all they do is street stuff.


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## DrRingDing (Oct 5, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> i think you should pay more attention  to the sea if you think all they do is street stuff.



I'm aware of Pitt and Cos charidee/community work. I can't see them winning council seats, can you?


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## chilango (Oct 5, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> Maintaining the fash under the cosh.
> 
> Who's the far-right in your mind?
> 
> ...



Obviously it's over simplistic of me to pose the political and physical as some sort of seperate entities, and yes - of course - the physical strategy is a political choice. But you know full well what I mean.

Of course there will always be ebbs and flows and movement amongst the spectrum of far-right groups (I'm deliberately not using the label fascist as that's not helpful here) that's not new, even at the height of their use of physical force there will have been both groups and individual activists arguing for a more electoral approach...

...so of course there will always be times when physical force rears its head and needs to be appropriately dealt with.

However, and not withstanding minor moves to the contrary by small grouplets (and that is all it is in the U.K. at the moment) by far the biggest threat that the far-right poses now (and this has been the case for over a decade now, probably closer to two frankly) is a non-physical one.

Both the BNP and (in some ways) UKIP have shown that it is a more fruitful avenue to pursue than trying to "control the streets".

I could repeat all the stuff that AFA and the IWCA keep saying, but they said it better than me and I'm sure you've read it?

But a political response is harder in so many ways than a physical one.

But you know this, right?


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## Pickman's model (Oct 5, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> How do you think that is maintained? Do you think battering some fash in the 90s was sufficient for forever and a day.
> 
> I totally reject butchersapron aspersion that militant antifascism these days is only set pieces. That's the only bit that he hears about. What really goes on is little different than what went on yesteryear and is vital work in a keeping the opposition in their place.


no. yes, there are continuities, but there are also considerable differences. in the pre- and early days of the internet things were considerably different - gathering information meant a lot of legwork. the advent of social media has changed a lot. you don't need someone to go undercover in the far right to know what they're thinking, you go and have a look on facebook or storm*runt or whatnot. but this has opened up a whole new front, as britain first have shown through their propaganda campaign.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 5, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> I'm aware of Pitt and Cos charidee/community work. I can't see them winning council seats, can you?


yes. you are aware of it. yet you can't see its meaning, its worth.

have a think.

the area in which they're working is something which has traditionally been a concern of the left, not the right. it is taking political space away from the left. it is something which is unlikely to lead to the sea being in council chambers in thurrock, admitted. but what happens if this same agenda moves from one part of the periphery to another, from the periphery of fascist activity to being a greater part of it? your limited thinking doesn't grasp the meaning of things, nor their implications.


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## malatesta32 (Oct 5, 2016)

SEA - tiny 
NWI - jailed
NA - small silly and compromised
NF - split
BM - a flag and a couple of gluebag memories
P&M - no shows
EDL - dead. 
Chilango: 'Both the BNP and (in some ways) UKIP have shown that it is a more fruitful avenue to pursue than trying to "control the streets".' 
we're back to the question of 'filling the vacuum.' how to deal with ukip - once they decide who's the next leader.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 5, 2016)

malatesta32 said:


> SEA - tiny
> NWI - jailed
> NA - small silly and compromised
> NF - split
> ...


Yeh. But the BNP have shown how a far right party with many years of a shit public image can in a few years be transformed into a  party with no more than about 15000 members at any one time, with a high turnover of members, punching well above its weight. But pretty much every far right group wants to replicate that w/o the negative Griffin factor, with a load of tinpot little Hitlers.


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## malatesta32 (Oct 5, 2016)

and yet BNP fell to bits (insert favoured conspiracy theory here) cos of griffin's astonishing ineptitude. there's that phrase, 'snatching defeat from the jaws of success' (which i 1st saw applied to johnny thunders) which is most applicable.


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## chilango (Oct 5, 2016)

...and yet all of those BNP votes haven't been won by TUSC or Left Unity or Momentum. They're still there for picking up by whichever right wing populist vehicle gets it act together enough.


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## Red Sky (Oct 5, 2016)

SpackleFrog said:


> Actually it's a thread about a book about anti-fascism. And you've been talking about Dover. Which isn't in the book.



The thread's remit seems to have broadened a bit in 200 odd pages - iirc there is a bit about some dust up in Dover in the book. If you look back  I didn't mention Dover until butchersapron did. (although no doubt our telepathic/paranoid comrade will insist that the air of Kentish coastal town was implicit in my original quip).


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## Red Sky (Oct 5, 2016)

chilango said:


> The one displayed prominently on their bookshelf, yet with no crease in the spine...
> 
> (Sorry Red Sky)



I've read it , I don't own a copy. It's not quite the Holy Writ is it?


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## Red Sky (Oct 5, 2016)

chilango said:


> Obviously it's over simplistic of me to pose the political and physical as some sort of seperate entities, and yes - of course - the physical strategy is a political choice. But you know full well what I mean.
> 
> Of course there will always be ebbs and flows and movement amongst the spectrum of far-right groups (I'm deliberately not using the label fascist as that's not helpful here) that's not new, even at the height of their use of physical force there will have been both groups and individual activists arguing for a more electoral approach...
> 
> ...



Nobody is saying that there is no need to confront the far-right politically are they? 

However there has been a need in the last six years to confront them physically as well. Is anyone seriously suggesting that no-one should have tried to stand together with communities who were being repeatedly subjected to mass far-right mobilisations with the clear intent to intimidate them? I went to oppose a few of the early EDL efforts, in and they were clear attempts to intimidate people and communities who were being targetted on a racial basis. I don't think that showing physical solidarity was a waste of time or energy. 

Right now there has been an ebb in far-right activity. Should we let up - give them time to recover? I don't think it should be the primary overriding task of the whole Left or even one of its main priorities but opposing them is still important.


----------



## DrRingDing (Oct 5, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> yes. you are aware of it. yet you can't see its meaning, its worth.
> 
> have a think.
> 
> the area in which they're working is something which has traditionally been a concern of the left, not the right. it is taking political space away from the left. it is something which is unlikely to lead to the sea being in council chambers in thurrock, admitted. but what happens if this same agenda moves from one part of the periphery to another, from the periphery of fascist activity to being a greater part of it? your limited thinking doesn't grasp the meaning of things, nor their implications.



That is not an argument for giving up militant anti-fascism but for filling that space. It's wrong headed IMO to say it's one or the other.


----------



## chilango (Oct 5, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> Nobody is saying that there is no need to confront the far-right politically are they?
> 
> However there has been a need in the last six years to confront them physically as well. Is anyone seriously suggesting that no-one should have tried to stand together with communities who were being repeatedly subjected to mass far-right mobilisations with the clear intent to intimidate them? I went to oppose a few of the early EDL efforts, in and they were clear attempts to intimidate people and communities who were being targetted on a racial basis. I don't think that showing physical solidarity was a waste of time or energy.
> 
> Right now there has been an ebb in far-right activity. Should we let up - give them time to recover? I don't think it should be the primary overriding task of the whole Left or even one of its main priorities but opposing them is still important.



I agree with this analysis


Spoiler: IWCA piece from up thread



Surveying the scene now, we see every possibility of Europe seeing the election of its first far-right head of state since 1945 in Austria in December, Marine Le Pen consistently leading the polling for the first round of the 2017 French Presidential election, UKIP eating into Labour’s core vote in England and Wales, the AfD as the biggest working class party in Berlin and the populist right climbing all over the furniture across northern, western and central Europe. The financial crash of 2008 and subsequent chronic economic crisis has stripped the political centre of its vestigial credibility, but it is the right who are filling the vacuum in working class political representation. The antecedents of the IWCA had as their mission statement ‘to oppose fascism physically and ideologically’. Cable Street was one of the inspirations for the physical struggle, a struggle that has been won – for now. If the current wave of populist nationalism is to be beaten back, the struggle now has to be political: no less than to reconstitute the working class as a political fighting force and the prime agent of radical political change, independent, democratic and beholden to no-one but itself. The challenge is considerable, but the risks of failing to meet it are clear.


but you didn't seem to...


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## Red Sky (Oct 5, 2016)

chilango said:


> I agree with this analysis
> 
> 
> Spoiler: IWCA piece from up thread
> ...



The only quibble I had was it saying 'the physical struggle is over (for now)*'. Perhaps they meant 'the physical struggle is of secondary importance' , I don't know. However we do have both fascists and right wing nationalists trying to continue the physical struggle at the moment. Not particularly effectively perhaps right now but the ambition is there. 

*Well done butchers


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## Pickman's model (Oct 5, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> That is not an argument for giving up militant anti-fascism but for filling that space. It's wrong headed IMO to say it's one or the other.


Yes, it is not an argument against militant anti-fascism. Well spotted. You see, I was not making such an argument. You say it's an argument for filling the space. What would you do, if you're working in that space and the fash come along and fill it themselves or offer themselves as competitors?


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## DrRingDing (Oct 6, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Yes, it is not an argument against militant anti-fascism. Well spotted. You see, I was not making such an argument. You say it's an argument for filling the space. What would you do, if you're working in that space and the fash come along and fill it themselves or offer themselves as competitors?



A spanking m'lord?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 6, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> A spanking m'lord?


no, i don't think there's any way to knock sense into you.


----------



## malatesta32 (Oct 6, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> I've read it , I don't own a copy. It's not quite the Holy Writ is it?


it is the 2nd best book on anti-fascism tho.


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## Red Sky (Oct 6, 2016)

malatesta32 said:


> it is the 2nd best book on anti-fascism tho.



I'd have to think carefully about nominating No1 depending on the size of bunfight I was up for.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Oct 6, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> I totally reject butchersapron aspersion that militant antifascism these days is only set pieces. That's the only bit that he hears about. What really goes on is little different than what went on yesteryear and is vital work in a keeping the opposition in their place.



Please tell us what really goes on. The class needs to know!


----------



## SpackleFrog (Oct 6, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> The thread's remit seems to have broadened a bit in 200 odd pages - iirc there is a bit about some dust up in Dover in the book. If you look back  I didn't mention Dover until butchersapron did. (although no doubt our telepathic/paranoid comrade will insist that the air of Kentish coastal town was implicit in my original quip).



I know, I was poking a little fun. Talk about what you like, I honestly don't mind.


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## Nigel (Oct 7, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> The thread's remit seems to have broadened a bit in 200 odd pages - iirc there is a bit about some dust up in Dover in the book. If you look back  I didn't mention Dover until butchersapron did. (although no doubt our telepathic/paranoid comrade will insist that the air of Kentish coastal town was implicit in my original quip).


Is that the whole Squadron incident that some on libertarian left felt was 'mis-managed'   ?


----------



## Anju (Oct 10, 2016)

I'm guessing many, if not all, of you are aware of this. Thought I would post in case not as I was wondering if this is significant enough to indicate a potential move back from political to street activity.  Despite not knowing anything about AF stuff I agreed with butchersapron for once, but seeing this, especially the raperefugees banner I would be in favour of petrol bombing the lot of them.Cambridgeshire neo-Nazi rally billed as 'private party' - BBC News


----------



## Joe Reilly (Oct 10, 2016)

Anju said:


> I'm guessing many, if not all, of you are aware of this. Thought I would post in case not as I was wondering if this is significant enough to indicate a potential move back from political to street activity.  Despite not knowing anything about AF stuff I agreed with butchersapron for once, but seeing this, especially the raperefugees banner I would be in favour of petrol bombing the lot of them.Cambridgeshire neo-Nazi rally billed as 'private party' - BBC News


 

Addressing the wider point - there is a generally hankering, typified by the snatching at the slimmest of hints, the far-right (or significant sections of it) might be preparing for a return to the streets. But As the nationalist right does not operate at an entirely irrational level the question is why would they need to? To what end? 

Across Europe they are winning the electoral battle with liberalism hands down. Even when taking the current shambles in UKIP into account it is much the same here.  The liberal left have proved they can't deal with them.  So should they at some stage decide on a return to the streets, there is no reason to  believe 'anti-fascism' (as currently constituted) would be equipped to deal with them there either. 

Be careful what you wish for is my advice.


----------



## Anju (Oct 10, 2016)

Joe Reilly said:


> Addressing the wider point - there is a generally hankering, typified by the snatching at the slimmest of hints, the far-right (or significant sections of it) might be preparing for a return to the streets. But As the nationalist right does not operate at an entirely irrational level the question is why would they need to? To what end?
> 
> Across Europe they are winning the electoral battle with liberalism hands down. Even when taking the current shambles in UKIP into account it is much the same here.  The liberal left have proved they can't deal with them.  So should they at some stage decide on a return to the streets, there is no reason to  believe 'anti-fascism' (as currently constituted) would be equipped to deal with them there either.
> 
> Be careful what you wish for is my advice.



It's not something I wish for. I am opposed to violence but having argued with a few people here post referendum I did a bit of reading up and recently saw an article by Benjamin Zephaniah that has partially changed my mind. 

I don't think the people in this video care about electoral success. I do think they will take the current wave of xenophobia in the UK as a sign they can take to the streets.


----------



## chilango (Oct 10, 2016)

Worth remembering that there's nothing new in that video.

Similar events have been organised for decades now. Some bigger, some smaller. Some opposed, some stopped and some gone largely unnoticed.

The BBC report talks of a large proportion with of attendees as coming from overseas, again nothing new, but it does reduce the likely number of domestic attendees to a pretty small number and not indicative in and of itself of any significant danger from neo-nazi street activism off the back of gigs like these.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 10, 2016)

Anju said:


> It's not something I wish for. I am opposed to violence but having argued with a few people here post referendum I did a bit of reading up and recently saw an article by Benjamin Zephaniah that has partially changed my mind.
> 
> I don't think the people in this video care about electoral success. I do think they will take the current wave of xenophobia in the UK as a sign they can take to the streets.


i think you'll find lots of people on the right have been taking to the streets in recent years, not to mention taking to the service station car parks.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 10, 2016)

Antifascism needs to happen in the estates, more than the streets, right now.


----------



## chilango (Oct 10, 2016)

It's not "anti fascism" that needs to happen right now at all.


----------



## Serotone (Oct 10, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Antifascism needs to happen in the estates, more than the streets, right now.


 
Unfortunately the Clapton/Goldsmiths SU/intersectional lot are more country estate than council estate. 

I wonder how many would involve themselves with grass roots activism (physical or not) outside of set pieces or their trendy subculture. 

Then again working class people have to do it for ourselves. 'Anti-fascism' seems divorced from class struggle at the moment.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 11, 2016)

chilango said:


> It's not "anti fascism" that needs to happen right now at all.



Depends how you're defining it.


----------



## chilango (Oct 11, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Depends how you're defining it.



The "ism" at the end is important.

Just as I'd probably argue that I'm anti-fascist, but not an anti-fascist.

Such linguistic detail aside, I do think that "filling the vacuum" remains the key task. But it needs to be done by something far more than "not the BNP/UKIP/whoever".

Hardly a new argument.

Yet, we are further away than ever from tackling it. See the Corbyn thread, seethe Clapton thread etc. etc.

The retreat from w/c representation continues headlong and very, very few people on the Left appear to be facing it.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 11, 2016)

chilango said:


> The "ism" at the end is important.
> 
> Just as I'd probably argue that I'm anti-fascist, but not an anti-fascist.
> 
> ...



I agree with all that so all we appear to be disagreeing about is that kind of work coming under the title 'antifascism', which I suppose I can live with.


----------



## malatesta32 (Oct 11, 2016)

the UK far right is very split over street tactics: the older ones have done street stuff & BNP electoral route and favour the latter; the younger lot, and those with less political experience - EDL, infibellends, National Action Men - want the excitement. NA have caused more dissent than unity over their sex offender revelations and mishandling of that. they keep pretending they have grown but the evidence is hardly convincing cos its the same 12-15 names and faces we see. the far right 'street gangs' have been increasingly outnumbered, have shown themselves to be politically clueless, and been decimated by the wave of heavy manners sentencing they've received (often compounded by previous violence on their records). UKIP is another matter.
addition: in case you aren't familiar with NA nonce scandal: 
Heil Grope-n-Fuhrer! Nonces, Nazis & National Action


----------



## treelover (Oct 11, 2016)

chilango said:


> I agree with this analysis
> 
> 
> Spoiler: IWCA piece from up thread
> ...



can't find that article on IWCA site.


----------



## treelover (Oct 11, 2016)

Serotone said:


> Unfortunately the Clapton/Goldsmiths SU/intersectional lot are more country estate than council estate.
> 
> I wonder how many would involve themselves with grass roots activism (physical or not) outside of set pieces or their trendy subculture.
> 
> Then again working class people have to do it for ourselves. 'Anti-fascism' seems divorced from class struggle at the moment.



Key players in the Momentum Conference last month, very very little on class, lots on race, gender, intersectionality.


----------



## Serotone (Oct 11, 2016)

treelover said:


> Key players in the Momentum Conference last month, very very little on class, lots on race, gender, intersectionality.


 
Similar thing in the US with Clinton saying taking control of the banks won't end racism/sexism or words to that effect. Shows how liberal identity struggles can be co-opted by elites to preserve the status quo.

Then at home we have Dianne Abbot who I'm pretty sure is an agent saboteur bank rolled by UKIP... Some of the stuff she comes out with, during a period of glimmering reconnection with labour's heartlands, is just plain daft.


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 11, 2016)

Interesting study: Policy Alienation, Social Alienation and Working-Class Abstention in Britain, 1964–2010 | Cambridge Core


Policy Alienation, Social Alienation and Working-Class Abstention in Britain, 1964–2010

This article presents an examination of class-based inequalities in turnout at British elections. These inequalities have substantially grown, and the class divide in participation has become greater than the class divide in vote choice between the two main parties. To account for class inequalities in turnout three main hypotheses – to do with policy indifference, policy alienation and social alienation – are tested. The results from the British context suggest that the social background of political representatives influences the ways in which voters participate in the political process, and that the decline in proportion of elected representatives from working-class backgrounds is strongly associated with the rise of working-class abstention.


----------



## Red Sky (Oct 11, 2016)

Joe Reilly said:


> Addressing the wider point - there is a generally hankering, typified by the snatching at the slimmest of hints, the far-right (or significant sections of it) might be preparing for a return to the streets. But As the nationalist right does not operate at an entirely irrational level the question is why would they need to? To what end?
> 
> Across Europe they are winning the electoral battle with liberalism hands down. Even when taking the current shambles in UKIP into account it is much the same here.  The liberal left have proved they can't deal with them.  So should they at some stage decide on a return to the streets, there is no reason to  believe 'anti-fascism' (as currently constituted) would be equipped to deal with them there either.
> 
> Be careful what you wish for is my advice.



Sections of the far-right did 'return; to the streets. That may or may not be the most significant battleground but it did happen. I'm also not sure that the far-right is quite such a monolithic entity as your post implies, what might seem rational to some nationalists will seem irrational to others.  

Across Europe we are seeing the electoral success of the far-right (AfD etc ) coupled with street activity.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 11, 2016)

yeh, treelover, not surprised you like this barking nonsense.


----------



## Serotone (Oct 12, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> View attachment 93806
> yeh, treelover, not surprised you like this barking nonsense.


 
I'm banning myself from internet sarcasm.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 12, 2016)

Serotone said:


> I'm banning myself from internet sarcasm.


I really believe you


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 12, 2016)

Serotone said:


> I'm banning myself from internet sarcasm.


go one better and see what editor can do for you in the banning department


----------



## Joe Reilly (Oct 12, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> Sections of the far-right did 'return; to the streets. That may or may not be the most significant battleground but it did happen. I'm also not sure that the far-right is quite such a monolithic entity as your post implies, what might seem rational to some nationalists will seem irrational to others.



The far-right is not of course a monolithic entity - these days - and for some time, it struggles to register as an 'entity' at all. Moreover 'returning to the streets' is not the same as attempting to impose through violence your systematic control of the political events that might place in public places across the entire country. It was the latter strategy the BNP abandoned 20 years ago. Despite the wishful thinking of the odd groupuscle, (and  hyped by same) there has been no discernible attempt to return to that strategy since.


----------



## Red Sky (Oct 12, 2016)

Joe Reilly said:


> The far-right is not of course a monolithic entity - these days - and for some time, it struggles to register as an 'entity' at all. Moreover 'returning to the streets' is not the same as attempting to impose through violence your systematic control of the political events that might place in public places across the entire country. It was the latter strategy the BNP abandoned 20 years ago. Despite the wishful thinking of the odd groupuscle, (and  hyped by same) there has been no discernible attempt to return to that strategy since.



So, as recently as 1996 the BNP thought they had a chance of imposing "systematic" control of all political events in the UK  through violence?


----------



## Joe Reilly (Oct 12, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> Across Europe we are seeing the electoral success of the far-right (AfD etc ) coupled with street activity.



An unlovely position. So what's the Antifa diagnosis?


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 13, 2016)

Joe Reilly said:


> An unlovely position. So what's the Antifa diagnosis?


Refugees welcome here?


----------



## Joe Reilly (Oct 14, 2016)

Red O said:


> Copsey, 'Who owns the 'Battle of Cable Street'?', www.historymatters.group.shef.ac.uk/owns-battle-cable-street/
> For AFA, the key episode that embodied their dedication to the honourable tradition of Cable Street (which the SWP/ANL had betrayed) was the ‘Battle of Waterloo’, not the battle in 1815 but the one between AFA and ‘Blood and Honour’ skinheads at Waterloo train station in September 1992.'



For AFA Waterloo was never regarded as a 'key episode'. Copsey who will know this, having reviewed BTF (where his assertion is firmly rebutted) but ploughs on anyway in the typically dishonest way of his (he has even claimed to be an AFA member on occasion) to make it fit his narrative. 
The essential difference between this clash and arguably more significant initiatives was the resultant publicity.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Oct 14, 2016)

The39thStep said:


> Refugees welcome here?



Could that be the reason the AFN 'takes the Fifth' when asked a rudimentary question?


----------



## Red Sky (Oct 16, 2016)

Joe Reilly said:


> An unlovely position. So what's the Antifa diagnosis?



Ignoring for the moment that you dodged my question by asking another...'Antifa' is a pretty generic concept these days. It was the name of a UK based group in the early 2000s but that's defunct now.

 Are you after the official AFN position? I'm afraid there isn't one. As the name suggests - the AFN is a network made of groups and individuals with a variety of political positions.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Oct 16, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> Ignoring for the moment that you dodged my question by asking another...'Antifa' is a pretty generic concept these days. It was the name of a UK based group in the early 2000s but that's defunct now.
> 
> Are you after the official AFN position? I'm afraid there isn't one. As the name suggests - the AFN is a network made of groups and individuals with a variety of political positions.




Surely_ someone_ has an opinion? How about you for instance? 

Ps I didn't dodge your question. The motivation behind it was so obvious I simply choose not to dignify it with a reply.


----------



## Casually Red (Oct 16, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> .
> 
> Across Europe we are seeing the electoral success of the far-right (AfD etc ) coupled with street activity.



We already know that . Many even predicted it as inevitable. And that there'd be very little answer to it . I can't pick a horse to save my life but even I saw that coming a mile off. Long time ago  . 

I don't think they care much for safe spaces really . Or that a safe space is were any leftist will ever learn how to counter them. Politically, emotionally, spiritually, intellectually. Much less physically . They're laughing . Like really laughing .


----------



## Red Sky (Oct 16, 2016)

Casually Red said:


> We already know that . Many even predicted it as inevitable. And that there'd be very little answer to it . I can't pick a horse to save my life but even I saw that coming a mile off. Long time ago  .



What did you do about it?



> I don't think they care much for safe spaces really . Or that a safe space is were any leftist will ever learn how to counter them. Politically, emotionally, spiritually, intellectually. Much less physically . They're laughing . Like really laughing .



The trouble with you is that you've lumped everyone who's ever disagreed with into one category. Why do you think I've got anything to do with 'safe spaces'?


----------



## Red Sky (Oct 16, 2016)

Joe Reilly said:


> Ps I didn't dodge your question. The motivation behind it was so obvious I simply choose not to dignify it with a reply.



Well quite.


----------



## Casually Red (Oct 16, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> What did you do about it?
> 
> 
> 
> The trouble with you is that you've lumped everyone who's ever disagreed with into one category. Why do you think I've got anything to do with 'safe spaces'?



No I haven't . Indeed you don't give off the safe space vibe as such in your posts . The problem ..one of them..is a wider left who adopt that approach . I hope I haven't inadvertantly suggested I thought you were the antifa king or something .


----------



## jimmer (Oct 18, 2016)

Does anybody know anything about 'Red Front Republic' in Glasgow?

They seem to have come from nowhere - Red Front Republic (@GlasgowRFR) on Twitter


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 18, 2016)

jimmer said:


> Does anybody know anything about 'Red Front Republic' in Glasgow?
> 
> They seem to have come from nowhere - Red Front Republic (@GlasgowRFR) on Twitter



'Green Brigade clowns under a different banner' according to this blog.


----------



## jimmer (Oct 18, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> 'Green Brigade clowns under a different banner' according to this blog.


Thanks, that looks like a hostile blog so wouldn't say it was reliable.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 18, 2016)

jimmer said:


> Thanks, that looks like a hostile blog so wouldn't say it was reliable.



Not beyond the realms of possibility that it's organised Celtic supporters though.


----------



## fiannanahalba (Oct 18, 2016)

Clowns. Middle class muppets.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Oct 19, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> So, as recently as 1996 the BNP thought they had a chance of imposing "systematic" control of all political events in the UK  through violence?



Up the change of strategy the aim of the BNP (and groups of like mind) was to impose itself on the political initiatives of their direct opponents, through violence or the threat of it. 

Now that I have answered your 'question' is there anything stopping you answering mine?


----------



## Red Sky (Oct 19, 2016)

Joe Reilly said:


> Up the change of strategy the aim of the BNP (and groups of like mind) was to impose itself on the political initiatives of their direct opponents, through violence or the threat of it.
> 
> Now that I have answered your 'question' is there anything stopping you answering mine?



Your question ..


Joe Reilly said:


> An unlovely position. So what's the Antifa diagnosis?



...my answer.



Red Sky said:


> 'Antifa' is a pretty generic concept these days. It was the name of a UK based group in the early 2000s but that's defunct now.
> 
> Are you after the official AFN position? I'm afraid there isn't one. As the name suggests - the AFN is a network made of groups and individuals with a variety of political positions.


----------



## vitali (Oct 20, 2016)

Bottled it.
Not an easy task to defend the internationalist socialist alternative in these dark days_ Red Sky_, but better that than the retreat into the conservative 'socialist' vision _Joe Reilly_ offers, a UKIP-lite.


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 20, 2016)

vitali said:


> Bottled it.
> Not an easy task to defend the internationalist socialist alternative in these dark days_ Red Sky_, but better that than the retreat into the conservative 'socialist' vision _Joe Reilly_ offers, a UKIP-lite.


What is the internationalist socialist alternative that we have to defend in these dark days?


----------



## The Flying Pig (Oct 20, 2016)

vitali said:


> Bottled it.
> Not an easy task to defend the internationalist socialist alternative in these dark days_ Red Sky_, but better that than the retreat into the conservative 'socialist' vision _Joe Reilly_ offers, a UKIP-lite.


Sounds like a job for  the clapton Ultras ! This dam blaggard Reilly. I am sure they can call an action on him. First they will have a big meeting and discuss the action, then they will send in the girls. If he does not retaliate we will all run away and hatch our plan B. Yes we will all come back on mass and attack him with our lentils. That should teach him a lesson.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 20, 2016)

The Flying Pig said:


> Sounds like a job for  the clapton Ultras ! This dam blaggard Reilly. I am sure they can call an action on him. First they will have a big meeting and discuss the action, then they will send in the girls. If he does not retaliate we will all run away and hatch our plan B. Yes we will all come back on mass and attack him with our lentils. That should teach him a lesson.


You are giving them an out with all this bullshit. The facts are mind boggling enough.


----------



## The Flying Pig (Oct 20, 2016)

TopCat said:


> You are giving them an out with all this bullshit. The facts are mind boggling enough.


What "facts are mind boggling enough"?


----------



## TopCat (Oct 20, 2016)

All the actual stuff CU said and did.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 20, 2016)

I think most people will be able to deduce that his post was tongue in cheek.


----------



## The Flying Pig (Oct 20, 2016)

TopCat said:


> All the actual stuff CU said and did.


Fully agree 100%


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 20, 2016)

vitali said:


> Bottled it.
> Not an easy task to defend the internationalist socialist alternative in these dark days_ Red Sky_, but better that than the retreat into the conservative 'socialist' vision _Joe Reilly_ offers, a UKIP-lite.



Instead of calling on Red Sky why don't you have a go at defending the international soclalist alternative?


----------



## Joe Reilly (Oct 20, 2016)

vitali said:


> Bottled it.



Perhaps. But ask yourself this? Would a moderately intelligent, middle class, twelve year old smart arse have come up with anything better?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 20, 2016)

vitali said:


> Bottled it.
> Not an easy task to defend the internationalist socialist alternative in these dark days_ Red Sky_, but better that than the retreat into the conservative 'socialist' vision _Joe Reilly_ offers, a UKIP-lite.


you won't find many international socialists these days, sunshine.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 20, 2016)

We're all national socialists now sonny.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Oct 20, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> Why do you think I've got anything to do with 'safe spaces'?



A self-described activist who refuses to answer a question on what he is an activist about might consider silence a 'safe place'.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 20, 2016)

Joe Reilly said:


> A self-described activist who refuses to answer a question on what he is an activist about might consider silence a 'safe place'.


i would suspect someone posting on a thread about anti-fascism and describing themselves as an activist might justifiably be understood to mean an anti-fascist activist.


----------



## Red Sky (Oct 20, 2016)

The Flying Pig said:


> Sounds like a job for  the clapton Ultras ! This dam blaggard Reilly. I am sure they can call an action on him. First they will have a big meeting and discuss the action, then they will send in the girls. If he does not retaliate we will all run away and hatch our plan B. Yes we will all come back on mass and attack him with our lentils. That should teach him a lesson.



 Who said satire was dead?


----------



## Red Sky (Oct 20, 2016)

Joe Reilly said:


> A self-described activist who refuses to answer a question on what he is an activist about might consider silence a 'safe place'.



That reasoning is almost Jesuitical in its tortuosness.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 20, 2016)

Red Sky said:


> That reasoning is almost Jesuitical in its tortuosness.


it's utter bollocks, isn't it? someone  says they're an activist and all of a sudden they have to believe in safe spaces  pisspoor, it really is.


----------



## chilango (Oct 20, 2016)

_Activist_ is quite a tainted label these days though isn't it? It's a role that come with a lot of baggage.


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 20, 2016)

Vitali's post reminds me of John Penneys line on here many moons ago.


----------



## Red About Town (Nov 6, 2016)

* Crossing Borders: Anti-Fascist Action (UK) and Transnational Anti-Fascist Militancy in the 1990s *

Nigel Copsey

Far too little academic attention has been paid to more contemporary forms of transnational anti-fascist militancy. Yet this study supports the idea that this field of anti-fascist activity has remained important. This article examines transnational anti-fascist militancy in the 1990s through a case study of Britain's Anti-Fascist Action (AFA). In doing so it offers an in-depth account of AFA's attempts to establish an international militant anti-fascist network in conjunction with Germany's Autonome Antifa (M). The article identifies the common interests, challenges and limitations of this network. The final part of his article reflects on the cross-border importation of AFA to the Irish Republic.

Document can be downloaded here:

Crossing Borders: Anti-Fascist Action (UK) and Transnational Anti-Fascist Militancy in the 1990s - TeesRep - Teesside's Research Repository


----------



## gawkrodger (Nov 10, 2016)

Would people be interested in/think there is a need or, rather, desire for a small book on the history of antifascism in the West Midlands?


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 10, 2016)

gawkrodger said:


> Would people be interested in/think there is a need or, rather, desire for a small book on the history of antifascism in the West Midlands?


I have a book on this already i think - covering up to late 80s maybe. Pic of lads sitting on a wall on cover. Can't check now, will when back home tmw. But  if so, an update, or one including earlier period.


----------



## gawkrodger (Nov 10, 2016)

oh wow, that sounds great


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 10, 2016)

...would be good

(meant to write that on end of last post).


----------



## DaveCinzano (Nov 10, 2016)

Red About Town said:


> * Crossing Borders: Anti-Fascist Action (UK) and Transnational Anti-Fascist Militancy in the 1990s *
> 
> Nigel Copsey
> 
> ...



An interesting read, though I should very much like to hear London AFA/RA etc perspectives on it, particularly re the 'AFA contact' who seems to be Copsey's source for most of the German link-up stuff.


----------



## framed (Nov 13, 2016)

gawkrodger said:


> oh wow, that sounds great



You should talk to the big fella in Brum as well mate


----------



## gawkrodger (Nov 14, 2016)

framed said:


> You should talk to the big fella in Brum as well mate



Obviously first on my potential hitlist!


----------



## malatesta32 (Nov 14, 2016)

i think there is the need for the reprinting of
martin lux's anti-fascism (brilliant)
john penney recollections (in my book)
k bullstreet booklet
the AFA perspective from liverpool afa. 
these are valuable texts and would make a decent compendium.


----------



## The39thStep (Nov 14, 2016)

malatesta32 said:


> i think there is the need for the reprinting of
> martin lux's anti-fascism (brilliant)
> john penney recollections (in my book)
> k bullstreet booklet
> ...


why would Liverpool AFA have a diffrent perspective from AFA?


----------



## Joe Reilly (Nov 14, 2016)

DaveCinzano said:


> An interesting read, though I should very much like to hear London AFA/RA etc perspectives on it, particularly re the 'AFA contact' who seems to be Copsey's source for most of the German link-up stuff.



Honestly not sure what to make of it. Copsey seem to be criticising RA for impressing on it's potential allies the centrality of the working class in terms of outcomes both negative and positive. 
This mule like attitude he seems to argue was the principle reason a European network never materialised. If that is an accurate summary, then I'd have to say, given recent events, his timing is a tad off. 

If you have subsequent questions I'll have a shot at answering them.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 14, 2016)

malatesta32 said:


> i think there is the need for the reprinting of
> martin lux's anti-fascism (brilliant)
> john penney recollections (in my book)
> k bullstreet booklet
> ...


Was in freedom a few days back and they have lux's book in stock


----------



## Fedayn (Nov 15, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> 'Green Brigade clowns under a different banner' according to this blog.



Oh dear


----------



## malatesta32 (Nov 15, 2016)

The39thStep said:


> why would Liverpool AFA have a diffrent perspective from AFA?



it says 'AFA - an anarchist perspective by an ex-Liverpool AFA member' then discusses northern network etc. my point is that these things are all important to keep in print as they tend to disappear in boxes etc.


----------



## Red About Town (Nov 15, 2016)




----------



## gawkrodger (Nov 16, 2016)

the Malatesta Militant anti-fascism book is available currently at AK as a free download

Militant Anti-Fascism e-book  | AK Press


----------



## The39thStep (Nov 18, 2016)

malatesta32 said:


> it says 'AFA - an anarchist perspective by an ex-Liverpool AFA member' then discusses northern network etc. my point is that these things are all important to keep in print as they tend to disappear in boxes etc.


Author is probably in the lib Dems now


----------



## Red About Town (Nov 18, 2016)

Also available now for free download in PDF format.

* Undertones -Anti Fascism and The Far Right in Ireland 1945 to 2012*

*An excellent book produced in 2012 to mark 21 years of Anti Facist Action in Ireland, written by Bernardo O’Reilly. Gives a history of the Irish Far Right in that period as well as the activities of AFA*

*Undertones -Anti Fascism and The Far Right in Ireland 1945 to 2012*


----------



## malatesta32 (Nov 19, 2016)

Red About Town said:


> Also available now for free download in PDF format.
> 
> * Undertones -Anti Fascism and The Far Right in Ireland 1945 to 2012*
> 
> ...



well reccommended. valuable piece of research.


----------



## Red Storm (Nov 26, 2016)

Found a booked by Larry O'Hara called Turning up the Heat: Mi5 after the Cold War today. There's two short chapters on Red Action with some "interesting" accusations and ideas. 

Never heard of it before or seen it discussed. Have been seen it before?


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 26, 2016)

How have you only just  came across this?

What do you think are "accusations"?


----------



## Red Storm (Nov 26, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> How have you only just  came across this?
> 
> What do you think are "accusations"?



I don't know how I've missed it to be honest. I don't recall it being discussed on here.

About Patrick Hayes being set up by Mi5 for their own political and strategic interests.


----------



## LiamO (Nov 27, 2016)

Red Storm said:


> I don't know how I've missed it to be honest. I don't recall it being discussed on here.
> 
> About Patrick Hayes being set up by Mi5 for their own political and strategic interests.



?


----------



## miktheword (Nov 27, 2016)

Yeah read it few years back..L o H over reaches himself massively I seem to remember. .main thing was that both nickings of pat and frank p were close together date wise.


----------



## Red Storm (Nov 27, 2016)

LiamO said:


> ?



That seems to be the main accusation. Strange book overall doesn't seem very reliable at all.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Nov 27, 2016)

Red Storm said:


> That seems to be the main accusation. Strange book overall doesn't seem very reliable at all.


'Post-truth' politics a quarter of a century before the term was invented.


----------



## SpecialBranch (Dec 5, 2016)

I am many years late to this but I'd like to jump in and say that BtF is one of the best books that I have read on the subject of anti-fascism. Just leaving that here.


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Dec 14, 2016)

Red Storm said:


> That seems to be the main accusation. Strange book overall doesn't seem very reliable at all.


Accusation? Lot of post-truth distortion here. "Doesn't seem very reliable at all". Wonderful evidence-free slur.

As for Patrick Hayes

1. It was unquestionably true that Hayes liaised with police on AFAs behalf re demos etc. 
2. Also that footage of the bomb at Harrods was not released for weeks. 
3. And when it was released Hayes was arrested the same day.

 If these facts are uncomfortable then so be it: no reason to condemn what I wrote by vague unsubstantiated insinuation. Unless...


----------



## Joe Reilly (Dec 15, 2016)

I don't recall now exactly what the original assertion was, but to present item 1. as a self-evident plank  (in support of whatever the theory was) is distinctly odd as it confirms the criticism of the book author is aiming to rebut. Unless...


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Dec 17, 2016)

Joe Reilly said:


> I don't recall now exactly what the original assertion was, but to present item 1. as a self-evident plank  (in support of whatever the theory was) is distinctly odd as it confirms the criticism of the book author is aiming to rebut. Unless...


My point here was that some police evidently would have recognised Hayes, had the footage not been suppressed (at the instigation of MI5) for 33 days. Not sure this undermines my argument at all, in fact it is integral to it.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Dec 19, 2016)

Larry O'Hara said:


> My point here was that some police evidently would have recognised Hayes, had the footage not been suppressed (at the instigation of MI5) for 33 days. Not sure this undermines my argument at all, in fact it is integral to it.



Accordingly, if he did not have the high profile you claim for him ("liased with police re demos etc") then a central assumption supporting your theory falls does it not?


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Dec 22, 2016)

Joe Reilly said:


> Accordingly, if he did not have the high profile you claim for him ("liased with police re demos etc") then a central assumption supporting your theory falls does it not?


As far as I am aware he did, and furthermore I have seen correspondence written by him in an official AFA capacity. I think we all know the facts here.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 22, 2016)

Wasn't the prosecution one of the first times that  CCTV facial recognition was used?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Dec 28, 2016)

Larry O'Hara said:


> As far as I am aware he did, and furthermore I have seen correspondence written by him in an official AFA capacity. I think we all know the facts here.



Good to see Notes from the Borderlands 11 has finally appeared (were you sourcing the paper yourselves by hand from the Amazon Basin, hence the time?) and the website updated and all available in PDF format! I will be buying a paper copy also.


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Dec 29, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Good to see Notes from the Borderlands 11 has finally appeared (were you sourcing the paper yourselves by hand from the Amazon Basin, hence the time?) and the website updated and all available in PDF format! I will be buying a paper copy also.



Well, we were getting on with our lives...and I have spent a lot of time looking into the phone-hacking saga, in which the Guardian and CPS do not come out very well at all. This will be a book.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Dec 29, 2016)

Larry O'Hara said:


> I think we all know the facts here.


 
The danger with a modus operandi that arrives swiftly at a conclusion without probable cause is that it then has to work backwards in order to find the evidence to justify it.
All too often plain 'facts' just get in the way of the narrative.
Probabilities, possibilities, exaggeration, improbabilities, omissions and and finally wild conjecture become the currency employed to join up the dots instead.
Basically because the conclusion of the 'investigation was arrived at first, they are then laid out as if they were self-evident.
Often the facts cited as 'integral', are not even facts. 
The real value of the embellished or the gossamer thin circumstantial is to support the initial baseless suspicion.
And when stripped down that is all that is left: the baseless suspicion.
What triggered it is probably the only area of interest in the entire shabby affair.


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Jan 1, 2017)

Joe Reilly said:


> The danger with a modus operandi that arrives swiftly at a conclusion without probable cause is that it then has to work backwards in order to find the evidence to justify it.
> All too often plain 'facts' just get in the way of the narrative.
> Probabilities, possibilities, exaggeration, improbabilities, omissions and and finally wild conjecture become the currency employed to join up the dots instead.
> Basically because the conclusion of the 'investigation was arrived at first, they are then laid out as if they were self-evident.
> ...



None of this answers anything I have said.

Furthermore I don't have too much of a problem with Hayes' actions anyway from his perspective he was a soldier in an unfinished war. Therefore the term suspicion doesn't apply.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Jan 2, 2017)

Larry O'Hara said:


> None of this answers anything I have said.
> 
> Furthermore I don't have too much of a problem with Hayes' actions anyway from his perspective he was a soldier in an unfinished war. Therefore the term suspicion doesn't apply.



So posters who posed a question against your conclusions were doing so because they were "uncomfortable" about what exactly?


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Jan 2, 2017)

Joe Reilly said:


> So posters who posed a question against your conclusions were doing so because they were "uncomfortable" about what exactly?



No facts I stated have actually been refuted.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Jan 4, 2017)

Larry O'Hara said:


> No facts I stated have actually been refuted.



There is a sort of surreal quality to the debate for this reason, because the "facts" that are produced as  "integral" are so flimsy they do not even measure up to being circumstantial, much less the slam dunks they are being presented as.

That is probably why no one else has bothered to refute them.

Nevertheless let's take them one at a time.
It is claimed that Mi5 withheld the CCTV footage for a month. Now one knows why they did that. Although the legitimate operational reasons from their perspective for doing must be in double figures at least. Back to that in a minute.

It is also implied that PH repeatedly acted as an AFA rep in meetings with police re "demos etc".

But in its entire existence AFA hardly held any set piece demos that necessitated formal contact with police. The AFA march through Bethnal Green was one such occasion and to my knowledge the only time PH served as a member of any 'AFA liason team'.

So there could never have been the opportunity for "liasons" (plural) as alleged. And I have even less idea what the 'etcs', (equally integral presumably), might even refer to? 

Even today exterior security cameras often offer a muddy return. Yet the footage when released was of such quality (which may have been one reason for the delay) it meant he was instantly identifiable to _anyone_ (neighbours, work colleagues, and so on) who knew him, a little better than vaguely.  

So the central notion that a few coppers who sat across the table from him almost 18 months previously were the ones in the box seat to point the finger at him is an utter fallacy. Anyone could have done that job. And 'anyone' actually did.


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Jan 4, 2017)

Joe Reilly said:


> There is a sort of surreal quality to the debate for this reason, because the "facts" that are produced as  "integral" are so flimsy they do not even measure up to being circumstantial, much less the slam dunks they are being presented as.
> 
> That is probably why no one else has bothered to refute them.
> 
> ...



I can see we are not going to agree here, but am glad you have now conceded

1. The footage was withheld for a month

2 PH had met the police in an AFA capacity

3 when the footage was released he was instantly identified: given I have never implied it was necessarily police who recognised him, that members of the public did or may have done hardly undermines my argument

4. And yes, there are many operational reasons as to why MI5 did not want the footage released: the important fact is it wasn't released for a period but when it was he was identified.

These are four non-surreal, non-flimsy substantial facts that you have now conceded, that are at the very least not inconsistent with my original hypothesis. Thank you.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Jan 5, 2017)

Well, we can now lose the AFA connection entirely because as you now admit, it was never significant. As no evidence has been produced to show their involvement we can also lose any reference to Mi5. So with those two out of the way what is left of the "original hypothesis"? 

Not an awful lot.

In truth only one "important fact" is worth salvaging. 

"[the cctv footage]wasn't released for a period but when it was he was identified." 

And that as they say is that.


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Jan 6, 2017)

Joe Reilly said:


> Well, we can now lose the AFA connection entirely because as you now admit, it was never significant. As no evidence has been produced to show their involvement we can also lose any reference to Mi5. So with those two out of the way what is left of the "original hypothesis"?
> 
> Not an awful lot.
> 
> ...



As stated, we are not going to agree. 

Even though you have admitted he was involved in AFA in an official capacity. I am not saying that Hayes was somehow acting in an AFA capacity when he was in the INLA.

And it was MI5 who suppressed the footage, so we should not lose any reference to them. Unless it is acceptable to just deny facts.

That as they say is indeed that.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Jan 6, 2017)

Larry O'Hara said:


> As stated, we are not going to agree.
> 
> Even though you have admitted he was involved in AFA in an official capacity. I am not saying that Hayes was somehow acting in an AFA capacity when he was in the INLA.
> 
> ...



A) you have know way of really knowing if it was suppressed, and b) if it was withheld, why it was withheld and c) and again if it was, following whose advice. 

Making stuff up is just as unacceptable as denying facts. 

PS the INLA was never involved.


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Jan 7, 2017)

Joe Reilly said:


> A) you have know way of really knowing if it was suppressed, and b) if it was withheld, why it was withheld and c) and again if it was, following whose advice.
> 
> Making stuff up is just as unacceptable as denying facts.
> 
> PS the INLA was never involved.



One persons withheld is another's suppressed.

This conversation has wasted enough of my time, I've got lots of evidence-based research to do. I'll not bother further: people can make up their own minds on what is what, and what is pointless sniping.


----------



## gawkrodger (Feb 20, 2017)

not sure where to put this - I think we could do with a catch all 'UK far-right thread' instead of having multiple small threads - but this is one of the biggest threads of relevance.

London art gallery putting on a load of fash/far-right stuff

SHUT DOWN LD50 GALLERY


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Feb 20, 2017)

gawkrodger said:


> not sure where to put this - I think we could do with a catch all 'UK far-right thread' instead of having multiple small threads - but this is one of the biggest threads of relevance.
> 
> London art gallery putting on a load of fash/far-right stuff
> 
> SHUT DOWN LD50 GALLERY



Theres the overlooked callout thread tucked away in the protest forum. 

Anti fascist call outs, activities etc


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Feb 20, 2017)

> Please share this information. Join us to leaflet against the gallery on the corner of Tottenham Road and Kingsland Road next Saturday (25 February) at 11am.



Join _who?_


----------



## classicdish (Feb 20, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Join _who?_


If you stick "shutdownL50" or "SHUT DOWN LD50 GALLERY" into google, twitter, reddit and facebook you'll see which people or groups have been sharing the call-out. The tmblr page itself doesn't seem to give an explicit description of who the authors are but looking at social media probably gives you a good clue as to who will turn up on the day.

Edit: Also if you look at the L50 gallery website itself they themselves have screen-shotted and posted up a whole load of facebook threads by the people who initially raised concerns about their stuff in the first place. It seems like the first people to realise what was going on at L50 were other art students etc at Goldsmiths. There is also a piece about it here: HorribleGIF


----------



## LiamO (Apr 14, 2017)

Wish we had met such liberals back in our day...

Beating the Fascists: The authorised history of Anti-Fascist Action

Beating the Fascists: The authorised history of Anti-Fascist Action

Beating the Fascists: The authorised history of Anti-Fascist Action


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Apr 14, 2017)

Get editing the book ffs.


----------



## LiamO (Apr 16, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Get editing the book ffs.


wanna job?


----------



## Joe Reilly (Apr 16, 2017)

Marine Le Pen is the candidate to beat in the first round off the Presidential election. Yet when self-styled anti-fascists still make international headlines for doing little more than scorching a door mat at some regional FN HQ and threatened 'more attacks'  - its high time to push the re-set button. This applies not just to the badly failing opposition in France but for all genuine anti-fascists across Europe.


----------



## RD2003 (Apr 16, 2017)

Got to scorch doors to signify your support for those lesser-evil liberals.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Apr 16, 2017)

Joe Reilly said:


> Marine Le Pen is the candidate to beat in the first round off the Presidential election. Yet when self-styled anti-fascists still make international headlines for doing little more than scorching a door mat at some regional FN HQ and threatened 'more attacks'  - its high time to push the re-set button. This applies not just to the badly failing opposition in France but for all genuine anti-fascists across Europe.



I agree with this but it does work on the assumption that those anti-fascists aren't doing what you imply?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Apr 16, 2017)

LiamO said:


> wanna job?



I know it's a lot of work. For little reward. I could certainly help, maybe, but in all honesty don't have the skill to edit a book.


----------



## 19force8 (Apr 17, 2017)

Joe Reilly said:


> Marine Le Pen is the candidate to beat in the first round off the Presidential election. Yet when self-styled anti-fascists still make international headlines for doing little more than scorching a door mat at some regional FN HQ and threatened 'more attacks'  - its high time to push the re-set button. This applies not just to the badly failing opposition in France but for all genuine anti-fascists across Europe.


This is what you get when you have a left more concerned about laïcité and headscarves than they are about fighting fascism.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 2, 2017)

Don't know if anyone has come across this theses on fascism in the UK in the 1940s but I found it fascinating

http://etheses.whiterose.ac.uk/14777/1/298964.pdf


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 27, 2017)

krink said:


> butchersapron  any news on this mate or did i miss it?


Never appeared - however - you can now get if for £9 rather than the 40 or 50 still being asked as a sort of advert for the publication of the 2nd volume. Or you can when the link on the publishers site actually works.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Jul 27, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> Don't know if anyone has come across this theses on fascism in the UK in the 1940s but I found it fascinating
> 
> http://etheses.whiterose.ac.uk/14777/1/298964.pdf



Not to pour cold water on any original research, but Dave Renton is not someone any anti-fascist ought to rely for an objective analysis.


----------



## krink (Jul 31, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> Never appeared - however - you can now get if for £9 rather than the 40 or 50 still being asked as a sort of advert for the publication of the 2nd volume. Or you can when the link on the publishers site actually works.


Excellent, cheers mate.


----------



## malatesta32 (Jul 31, 2017)

renton is totally 'anti-squaddism' and as contemptible as searchlight's publications that ignore militants in their revisionist history.


----------



## Casually Red (Jul 31, 2017)

Red About Town said:


> Also available now for free download in PDF format.
> 
> * Undertones -Anti Fascism and The Far Right in Ireland 1945 to 2012*
> 
> ...



Enjoyed reading that . Seems pretty comprehensive . Something ...that I'm not all surprised is missing...is any mention of a ( wholly fictitious ) fascist " group " , by the clearly dog whistle name of " Irish nationalism " that embarked on a one man spray can campaign one night at Islandbridge and the Jewish museum back in 2004/5 ? Followed by a seemingly sock puppet style appearance on Scumfront shortly afterwards claiming responsibility ( that's were the " groups " name emerged  and promptly disappeared thereafter. Never to be heard of again, its false flag purpose having been served ) .

They were never heard of before or ever since . And as was clear from the startled reactions on scumfront at the time even the Irish based fash  had never heard of them either . Given the minuscule ..like seriously minuscule .. Nature of the Irish based fash that pointed to the so called group never having existed in the first place . closer examination pointed strongly towards an attempt at skulduggery emanating from a crank individual with another agenda completely .

And by amazing coincidence shortly afterwards the IRA memorial in Fairview park was in turn attacked...surprise , by an unnamed " anti fascist " group that yet again nobody had ever heard of . Major skulduggery . What are the odds of 2 such unheard of wholly anonymous groups engaged in the exact same carry on..the anonymous defacement of monuments in the dead of night..on the go at the same time in a scene were both sets of protagonists could more or less fit on the same bus ? A million to one . The penny soon drooped .

But good to check again and unsurprisingly find no evidence that this " Irish nationalism " outfit never actually existed . There were quite a few people looking to track down who was behind it at the time . It became a certainty the entire thing was a self serving hoax coming from a different spectrum . And an individual yet to be held to account sadly .


----------



## LiamO (Aug 2, 2017)

Why anyone might think it was a one-man band. An off-key one. Would you care to hazard a wild guess as to who this one man might be?


----------



## Casually Red (Aug 4, 2017)

LiamO said:


> Why anyone might think it was a one-man band. An off-key one. Would you care to hazard a wild guess as to who this one man might be?



I think his cage just got rattled .


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 4, 2017)

malatesta32 said:


> renton is totally 'anti-squaddism' and as contemptible as searchlight's publications that ignore militants in their revisionist history.


Did you read the booklet ?


----------



## malatesta32 (Aug 5, 2017)

yes, its very good. they sent me a copy when i was doing the Mili-AF book.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Aug 10, 2017)

UCO = Undercover officers.

From page 35 of this: https://www.ucpi.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Mosaic-report-open-version.pdf

(Posted by DaveCinzano here Undercover policing enquiry)


----------



## LiamO (Aug 10, 2017)

I can think of one I'd like to meet agin.

Was never sure about her, but the more I read the more she fits the bill (pardon the pun)


----------



## Joe Reilly (Aug 11, 2017)

When Labour MP Anne Cryer first tried to raise the issue of grooming in her constituency national papers like the Guardian wouldn't touch it and she ended up on an Islamaphobia watch list.  It's just a small example. But when child rapists are automatically awarded immunity under the anti-racist umbrella it serves as a reminder of just how unhinged the left as a whole has become.  Across Europe they have tilted over so far in order to match up to their own criteria they have fallen out of the boat on the other side. Not waving, but drowning. And they will have no hesitation in dragging anti-fascism down with them. Then what?


----------



## cantsin (Aug 11, 2017)

Joe Reilly said:


> When Labour MP Anne Cryer first tried to raise the issue of grooming in her constituency national papers like the Guardian wouldn't touch it and she ended up on an Islamaphobia watch list.  It's just a small example. But when child rapists are automatically awarded immunity under the anti-racist umbrella* it serves as a reminder of just how unhinged the left as a whole has become.*  Across Europe they have tilted over so far in order to match up to their own criteria they have fallen out of the boat on the other side. Not waving, but drowning. And they will have no hesitation in dragging anti-fascism down with them. Then what?



agree, but not that part...many of us self describing as left, and want nothing to do with the kind of bullshit Graun sponsored ID politics that helps create spaces for abusers / groomers due to perceived racial / religio sensitivities.

On the other hand, always good to remember the scoutmasters / priests / football coaches /pub school teachers etc etc , ie : other groups of fucked up men with authority / access to potential victims,  in a fucked up world.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Aug 11, 2017)

How many of those were doing it as organised groups though? I don't mean this as whataboutery, but I don't think scoutmasters, teachers, football coaches etc have been systematically abusing kids in organised gangs, let alone to the unprecedented scale we are currently seeing.


----------



## Casually Red (Aug 11, 2017)

The " parties " at Dolphin Square , Elm Guest House , Kincora , PIE, Catweazle and the dirty dozen ...all those gangs seemed pretty organised to me .


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Aug 11, 2017)

So that makes it ok then? As long as we can balance the nonce score fairly between races there's no need for the spotlight to shine on this?
And the point I'm making is this shit is going on in multiple towns and cities.


----------



## Casually Red (Aug 11, 2017)

Wtf ??


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Aug 11, 2017)

What has Elm house etc got to do with all these current cases in the news ATM?


----------



## bimble (Aug 11, 2017)




----------



## cantsin (Aug 12, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> So that makes it ok then? As long as we can balance the nonce score fairly between races there's no need for the spotlight to shine on this?
> .



On the ale again eh


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Aug 12, 2017)

cantsin said:


> On the ale again eh



I haven't had much actually. But think about it. If we were to have a discussion about e.g. Fred West, you wouldn't pipe up and say, "but let's not forget that [insert race] also rape and kill kids" would you? And by doing that here, you're actually confirming the point that Joe Reilly was making.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 12, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> How many of those were doing it as organised groups though? I don't mean this as whataboutery, but I don't think scoutmasters, teachers, football coaches etc have been systematically abusing kids in organised gangs, let alone to the unprecedented scale we are currently seeing.


I have my dark suspicions about just how widespread and organised the sex abuse from senior politicos, lords and worthies was. Like yourself I mean no whataboutery here but its always bothered me that the light entertainment stars were thrown in jail post-saville (good) yet those political connections...well. I realise this makes me sound a bit tinfoil but janner ffs. This in no way takes away from the extant wrong here obviously. I just firmly believe the upper echelons of political life were running child sex rings or some simply 'not seeing them'. In both examples the targets are the same- the marginalised and weak in voice 'whose going to believe an estate slag/care home kid'? etc

A level of organisation some ways above opportunistic scout leaders abusing kids after a shower as individuals

Fuck knows if we'll ever get the truth of that mess


----------



## Casually Red (Aug 12, 2017)

You said straight up this phenomenon is unprecedented . That organised pedo gangs  doesn't occur outside the Muslim community . This was patently untrue and well known examples were provided . One reason why some people feel it necessary to point this out is because..not only is it totally inaccurate.. right now there are all sorts of bigots using such inaccuracies deliberately to stir up hate against Muslims . To " other " Muslims in general , on the basis such practices only originate from them and nobody else .

It's perfectly correct to state there exists a major problem on the western left who'll prefer to pretend stuff like this doesn't happen..whether Rotherham or Cologne/ Hamburg . Or anywhere else . Also perfectly correct to state people run the very real risk of being denounced as racists and fascists when they point it out . That's been a big thing in these cases and I've been on the receiving end of it a number of times .

 But when you go about stating it's a phenomenon confined to one community that never happened before anywhere else that's just plain wrong . And pretty unhelpful . If you can't see how that can be used by the malevolently inclined I can't help you . The problem here is a totally inaccurate statement , not the reactions to it .


Eta

You actually asked the question " how many ( non Muslims ) were doing this in organised gangs ?" . All I did was answer your direct question with a few examples of organised gangs . No need to crack up when it was the question you posed .


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Aug 12, 2017)

The point being made is that when it comes to ruling class noncing there isn't any downplaying of it by pointing out that others are nonces too. Obviously the far right make hay whilst the sun shines when it comes to Muslim noncing but the left leave the floor completely open for them to do that by having this weird double standard when it comes to this type of offence perpetrated by non whites.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Aug 12, 2017)

Casually Red said:


> You said straight up this phenomenon is unprecedented . That organised pedo gangs  doesn't occur outside the Muslim community . This was patently untrue and well known examples were provided . One reason why some people feel it necessary to point this out is because..not only is it totally inaccurate.. right now there are all sorts of bigots using such inaccuracies deliberately to stir up hate against Muslims . To " other " Muslims in general , on the basis such practices only originate from them and nobody else .
> 
> It's perfectly correct to state there exists a major problem on the western left who'll prefer to pretend stuff like this doesn't happen..whether Rotherham or Cologne/ Hamburg . Or anywhere else . Also perfectly correct to state people run the very real risk of being denounced as racists and fascists when they point it out . That's been a big thing in these cases and I've been on the receiving end of it a number of times .
> 
> But when you go about stating it's a phenomenon confined to one community that never happened before anywhere else that's just plain wrong . And pretty unhelpful . If you can't see how that can be used by the malevolently inclined I can't help you . The problem here is a totally inaccurate statement , not the reactions to it .



In the context of what we're discussing - organised noncing in Newcastle, there isn't an equivalent. I haven't once said it's a Muslim only problem generally.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Aug 12, 2017)

Casually Red said:


> You actually asked the question " how many ( non Muslims ) were doing this in organised gangs ?" . All I did was answer your direct question with a few examples of organised gangs . No need to crack up when it was the question you posed .



Give examples from the last decade. And don't be choosy about the race/religion of the perps.


----------



## Casually Red (Aug 12, 2017)

There's one in particular that springs to mind but I'm not going there again . Not a fucking chance .


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Aug 12, 2017)

Only one? I can think of Newcastle, Oxford and Rotherham. It's the elephant in the room.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 12, 2017)

he's on about cologne again


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Aug 12, 2017)

Was he an apologist about that? I thought that turned out to be made up (admittedly I haven't followed it in depth).


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 12, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Was he an apologist about that? I thought that turned out to be made up (admittedly I haven't followed it in depth).


at one point calling for civil defense squads. In the same thread we had people claiming racial profiling was now valid. It wasn't a great thread all round, that thread


----------



## Casually Red (Aug 12, 2017)

DotCommunist said:


> he's on about cologne again



Nope


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Aug 12, 2017)

DotCommunist said:


> at one point calling for civil defense squads. In the same thread we had people claiming racial profiling was now valid. It wasn't a great thread all round, that thread



Besides, it's UK politics. I wasn't really wanting examples from deepest Peru.


----------



## Casually Red (Aug 12, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> In the context of what we're discussing - organised noncing in Newcastle, there isn't an equivalent. I haven't once said it's a Muslim only problem generally.



In the context of what we are discussing there's actually a thread about it here still going strong .

Rotherham child rape gangs: At least 1400 victims


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Aug 12, 2017)

Casually Red said:


> In the context of what we are discussing there's actually a thread about it here still going strong .
> 
> Rotherham child rape gangs: At least 1400 victims



Same phenomenon and not part of your what aboutery.


----------



## Casually Red (Aug 12, 2017)




----------



## Magnus McGinty (Aug 12, 2017)

I asked for examples from the last decade and you, err, gave an example that I'd already mentioned. If you were pointing out that thread for a different reason then I'll accept the facepalm.


----------



## Red Sky (Aug 12, 2017)

Is the idea of "fear of racism" being used here in the same way as "institutional racism" was used in the Lawrence Inquiry. As a way of whitewashing actual collusion by nameable individuals?


----------



## Joe Reilly (Aug 16, 2017)

When with an Orwellian turn of phrase Corbyn announces that Sarah Champion MP for Rotherham had to be sacked because she had become 'a distraction from the issues that have to be faced,' (the issues the Left as whole has been furiously denying for 15 years) you come to the realisation that the Labour Party has finally severed any remaining bonds it had with either truth or reality. It is gone and is never coming back.


----------



## belboid (Aug 17, 2017)

It's not Labour that isn't coming back, Joe, it's your political relevance. Champions comments were grotesquely crass and racist.


----------



## RD2003 (Aug 17, 2017)

belboid said:


> It's not Labour that isn't coming back, Joe, it's your political relevance. Champions comments were grotesquely crass and racist.



(!)


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 17, 2017)

Joe Reilly said:


> When with an Orwellian turn of phrase Corbyn announces that Sarah Champion MP for Rotherham had to be sacked because she had become 'a distraction from the issues that have to be faced,' (the issues the Left as whole has been furiously denying for 15 years)



I look forward to Jeremy, labour MPs and Councillors 'facing up to the issues' I really do. It will make a pleasant change from their current approach of political cowardice and cultural relativism.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 17, 2017)

belboid said:


> It's not Labour that isn't coming back, Joe, it's your political relevance. Champions comments were grotesquely crass and racist.



What did she say specifically that was racist?


----------



## belboid (Aug 17, 2017)

Smokeandsteam said:


> What did she say specifically that was racist?


The opening line (I've no need to repeat is as you've obviously read it closely ), the one claiming all the rapists only having one thing by in common. Both of which were not only racist, but factually incorrect too. 

Not that Joke is bothered by factual accuracy - after all, his opening sentence isn't true. The phrase was Champions's, not Corbyn's.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 17, 2017)

belboid said:


> The opening line (I've no need to repeat is as you've obviously read it closely ), the one claiming all the rapists only having one thing by in common. Both of which were not only racist, but factually incorrect too.



So your view is that the opening line of the article, which states that there is a 'problem' is wrong and 'grotesquely racist'? 

Can you point me to the line where she suggests that 'all rapists have one thing in common' I can't find it in the article you reference


----------



## belboid (Aug 17, 2017)

Your comprehension is abysmal. 

Yes, a sentence saying Pakistani men are a problem is racist. Unless you think crude grotesque stereotypes aren't racist.

And  "These people are predators and the common denominator is their ethnic heritage." is pretty fucking racist too. Considering the people under discussion came from various backgrounds.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 17, 2017)

belboid said:


> Your comprehension is abysmal.
> 
> Yes, a sentence saying Pakistani men are a problem is racist. Unless you think crude grotesque stereotypes aren't racist.
> 
> And  "These people are predators and the common denominator is their ethnic heritage." is pretty fucking racist too. Considering the people under discussion came from various backgrounds.



The article explicitly references her experience in Rotherham. 

What would you describe the gang grooming and rape of 1,400 children in a one town by Pakistani men as? An inconvenience?


----------



## belboid (Aug 17, 2017)

Smokeandsteam said:


> The article explicitly references her experience in Rotherham.
> 
> What would you describe the gang grooming and rape of 1,400 children in a one town by Pakistani men as? An inconvenience?


The article is in response to Newcastle. Not Rotherham (which wasn't entirely Pakistani men, either). 

And if you don't see why a headline in a racist rag singling out one group as being rapists - we never had a White British Men Are Rapists headline during Savile, did we? - if you can't see why that's a problem, well, you're pretty stupid. Singling out a group will mean other rapists getting away with it while you are baying in the opposite direction. 

Seymour has a decent piece on some of the questions raised Racism and sexual abuse | Richard Seymour on Patreon

tldr- of course there's no issue with talking about The Jewish Problem


----------



## belboid (Aug 17, 2017)

Oh, and the argument I am making is the same one the MP for Rotherham used to defeat the ukip candidate who was, basically, making the same argument as Joe. Which makes a bigger mockery of his claim that this proves Labour is finished.


----------



## articul8 (Aug 17, 2017)

I certainly wouldn't defend writing for The Sun or the way it frames Champion's argument.  But the idea that speaking out against white working class girls getting raped by gangs of Asian men is a taboo subject for peoeple in Labour, because it's somehow "racist", certainly sends out a worrying message - of exactly the kind that plays into the hands of the far right.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 17, 2017)

belboid said:


> The article is in response to Newcastle. Not Rotherham (which wasn't entirely Pakistani men, either).
> 
> And if you don't see why a headline in a racist rag singling out one group as being rapists - we never had a White British Men Are Rapists headline during Savile, did we? - if you can't see why that's a problem, well, you're pretty stupid. Singling out a group will mean other rapists getting away with it while you are baying in the opposite direction.



No. The article she wrote is about Rotherham and the work she did with Barnardo's once she became aware of the extent of the problem. I thought you had read it? You still haven't provided any evidence to back up your 'grotesquely racist' claim either.

You now seem to be arguing that it was the publication the article appeared in that is the issue, along with the usual deflecting/move on whataboutery re Saville. 

The flaw in the article is that it focuses on the motivations of the perps rather than the situation of the victims. Reversing this matters to prevent and deal with both these types of group rape/grooming gangs and other would be child rapists.


----------



## belboid (Aug 17, 2017)

Smokeandsteam said:


> No. The article she wrote is about Rotherham and the work she did with Barnardo's once she became aware of the extent of the problem. I thought you had read it? You still haven't provided any evidence to back up your 'grotesquely racist' claim either.
> 
> You now seem to be arguing that it was the publication the article appeared in that is the issue, along with the usual deflecting/move on whataboutery re Saville.
> 
> The flaw in the article is that it focuses on the motivations of the perps rather than the situation of the victims. Reversing this matters to prevent and deal with both these types of group rape/grooming gangs and other would be child rapists.


I repeat my earlier point re your poor comprehension. I wrote 'grotesquely crude and racist' - ie it is grotesquely crude, and it is racist. Two concepts in one sentence! And I have said clearly why i think it's racist. Sexual abuse happens in every community. There is a problem with white girls being raped by white men. There's a problem with white girls being raped by Afro Caribbean men. Etc etfuckingcetera. Singling out single groups leads straight to the next days headline talking about the 'Muslim problem'. And if you can't see the problem with that, you're blind. 

Also, race isn't really the issue even in the last couple of headline cases. It's about what goes on in the nighttime economy. If we only talk about Asians in the nighttime economy, how many more victims are being overlooked?

And, as champion once pointed out, they were overlooked not out of fear of accusations of racism, but because the police thought the girls were worthless slappers.


----------



## sunnysidedown (Aug 17, 2017)

belboid said:


> they were overlooked not out of fear of accusations of racism, but because the police thought the girls were worthless slappers.



Could both not have played a part, possibly?


----------



## Nice one (Aug 17, 2017)

belboid said:


> There's a problem with white girls being raped by Afro Caribbean men.



Look what you said look what you said!

Those are you words, grotesquely crude and racist, but thankfully not in the sun


----------



## Joe Reilly (Aug 17, 2017)

belboid said:


> Not that Joke is bothered by factual accuracy - after all, his opening sentence isn't true. The phrase was Champions's, not Corbyn's.



It was articulated by Corbyn and crafted by Seamus Milne. I very much doubt Champion has anything to do with it.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 17, 2017)

belboid said:


> I repeat my earlier point re your poor comprehension. I wrote 'grotesquely crude and racist' - ie it is grotesquely crude, and it is racist. Two concepts in one sentence! And I have said clearly why i think it's racist. Sexual abuse happens in every community. There is a problem with white girls being raped by white men. There's a problem with white girls being raped by Afro Caribbean men. Etc etfuckingcetera. Singling out single groups leads straight to the next days headline talking about the 'Muslim problem'. And if you can't see the problem with that, you're blind.
> 
> Also, race isn't really the issue even in the last couple of headline cases. It's about what goes on in the nighttime economy. If we only talk about Asians in the nighttime economy, how many more victims are being overlooked?
> 
> And, as champion once pointed out, they were overlooked not out of fear of accusations of racism, but because the police thought the girls were worthless slappers.



More dissembling.

What she said was there is a specific problem with Pakistani rape gangs. She cited the town where she is an MP as an example where 1,400 kids were abused. There are other examples - Rochadale, Manchester. Oxford, Telford and more. We are talking here about thousands of vulnerable kids being raped by Pakistani men acting in a co-ordinated manner. 

You have suggested that to point this out, to not look elsewhere, and to state it is a 'problem' is 'grotesquely racist'. I am asking how it is. You are also stating that to make any reference to the race of the attackers is a 'problem'. Why is it a problem? 

I have already said that I agree that the focus needs to be shifted away from the motivation of the rapists to the positon and needs of the victims and how these should be addressed by the way.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Aug 17, 2017)

belboid said:


> And, as champion once pointed out, they were overlooked not out of fear of accusations of racism, but because the police thought the girls were worthless slappers.



You seem entirely blind to the fact that the sacking - and your entire argument in support of it - says exactly the opposite. Identity politics was at the heart of the cover-up then and is behind the instinct to point the finger in every other direction (including at other minorities) now.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 17, 2017)

belboid said:


> Oh, and the argument I am making is the same one the MP for Rotherham used to defeat the ukip candidate who was, basically, making the same argument as Joe. Which makes a bigger mockery of his claim that this proves Labour is finished.


a party named labour may indeed do well in future elections. but labour as the party of labour is long since dead.


----------



## belboid (Aug 17, 2017)

Joe Reilly said:


> You seem entirely blind to the fact that the sacking - and your entire argument in support of it - says exactly the opposite. Identity politics was at the heart of the cover-up then and is behind the instinct to point the finger in every other direction (including at other minorities) now.


Utter nonsense. Just completely untrue, as anyone who has actually followed Rochdale, Rotherham and now Newcastle would tell you. 

Try backing your argument up rather than just making sweeping assertions.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 17, 2017)

belboid said:


> Try backing your argument up rather than just making sweeping assertions.



That's precisely what I have been asking you to do.  

So come on, back up your argument that her article was 'grotesquely racist'


----------



## Joe Reilly (Aug 17, 2017)

belboid said:


> And, as champion once pointed out, they were overlooked not out of fear of accusations of racism, but because the police thought the girls were worthless slappers.



You seem entirely blind to the fact that the sacking - and your entire argument in support of it - says exactly the opposite. Identity politics was at the heart of the cover-up then and is behind the instinct to point the finger in every other direction (the night time economy and even other minorities) now.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 17, 2017)

Smokeandsteam said:


> More dissembling.
> 
> What she said was there is a specific problem with Pakistani rape gangs. She cited the town where she is an MP as an example where 1,400 kids were abused. There are other examples - Rochadale, Manchester. Oxford, Telford and more. We are talking here about thousands of vulnerable kids being raped by Pakistani men acting in a co-ordinated manner.
> 
> ...


I think there have been around 16 cities and towns where the organised rape gangs have been of Pakistan origin.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Aug 17, 2017)

Don't be racist! 
I had a similar discussion elsewhere that drifted into conspiraloonery that the media was to blame for 'focusing' on Pakistani grooming gangs at the expense of all the others of other origins that are presumably needed by the liberal left to diversify the offending. And ultimately it's apparently all being run by white men anyway; I didn't bother asking for the evidence of that.


----------



## cantsin (Aug 17, 2017)

Joe Reilly said:


> When with an Orwellian turn of phrase Corbyn announces that Sarah Champion MP for Rotherham had to be sacked because she had become 'a distraction from the issues that have to be faced,' (the issues the Left as whole has been furiously denying for 15 years) you come to the realisation that the Labour Party has finally severed any remaining bonds it had with either truth or reality. It is gone and is never coming back.



writing that piece, framed like that, in the Sun, was a ridiculous stunt from Champion, and helps ensure that a subject that needs / warrants examination / debate, just get's buried in the ensuing clusterf*ck. She's an idiot / deserved sacking.


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## Magnus McGinty (Aug 17, 2017)

Do you attack the platform when liberal dirge is published in the Guardian?
I agree The Sun is shit, but It doesn't make a difference on the opinion expressed, does it?
In fact it says a lot if they're the only ones willing to publish it. The floor is open for the far right to be the voice of reason to the masses because whataboutery and Murdoch.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 17, 2017)

Corbyn now building a strawman and opposing  those who claim the entire Asian community is to blame. Which of course his ex minister did not.  What an abysmal piece of dribble he is.   

Jeremy Corbyn: Wrong to blame 'entire community' for abuse - BBC News


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## Joe Reilly (Aug 18, 2017)

cantsin said:


> writing that piece, framed like that, in the Sun, was a ridiculous stunt from Champion, and helps ensure that a subject that needs / warrants examination / debate, just get's buried in the ensuing clusterf*ck. She's an idiot / deserved sacking.



Without a shadow of a doubt the Sun headline was on the salty side. However when you say the the subject "gets buried" your in danger of forgetting it was overwhelmingly the liberal Left that buried it. Which is why when Ann Cryer MP contacted the Guardian 15 years ago they didn't want to know. 
(How many thousands of lives blighted in between?)  Not only that but she ended up on an Islamaphobia watchlist for her troubles. 

So it fell to the right wing _Times_ to eventually break the story (even then the journo in question admitted he sat on it for years hoping someone else would pick up the baton) and it took a prosecutor 'of Pakistani origin' to have the balls to level charges. 

In other words the achingly achingly anti-racist liberal press and equally right on CPS wouldn't touch it.   

So what does the Champion sacking tell us given that historical backdrop?  What it tells us is brutal in its  simplicity. It tells all of us that the tens of thousands of rape victims even if they are children, are in 2017, still considered to be less important to the Labour Party that the sensitivities of the community from which the rapists have repeatedly emerged. 

This is not anti-racism. This is not anti-fascism. It is the exact opposite to both. 

But if you still have any doubts, just swap the melanin of the victims and the perpetrators, and in an instant you will know exactly how to label it.


----------



## belboid (Aug 18, 2017)

On the salty side? For fucks sake, you can't even say the word 'racist' any more. You're a bad joke.


----------



## belboid (Aug 18, 2017)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Corbyn now building a strawman and opposing  those who claim the entire Asian community is to blame. Which of course his ex minister did not.  What an abysmal piece of dribble he is.
> 
> Jeremy Corbyn: Wrong to blame 'entire community' for abuse - BBC News


How's Gerry Coyne doing as an MP?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 18, 2017)

belboid said:


> How's Gerry Coyne doing as an MP?



Even a stopped clock is right twice a day. You've managed once.

Now stop making a total show of yourself and admit you called it wrong.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Aug 27, 2017)

A Manchester Labour Councillor and former parliamentary candidate has been sacked it emerged on Friday.

Amina Lone, spoke out last week in defence of Sarah Champion the Rotherham MP who had previously been sacked for saying that 'Britain has a problem with Muslim gangs exploiting white girls'.

Sarah Champion was duly accused of pandering to racism and Islamaphobia.

But Amina Lone, of Pakistani heritage, happens to be Muslim herself. But this fact did not save her.  Muslim she may be, but as far as Labour is concerned she is the wrong type of Muslim.

So in the wake of the Champion/Lone sackings what message does this send the next batch of potential victims and rapists?

'As far as we in the Labour Party are concerned, the welfare of poor or vulnerable white children and secular leaning Muslim women are, hmm, how to put this, sub-optimal.

Nothing personal. Just politics.'

VOTE LABOUR!


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## belboid (Aug 27, 2017)

She was deselected in June. Nothing to do with any recent articles. 

Tedious bloody facts


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## sihhi (Aug 28, 2017)

over Amina LoneI,  think both Joe Reilly and belboid  have some truth. 

_Usually sitting councillors are automatically allowed to stand again, but Coun Lone was ordered earlier this summer to face an interview on the grounds that her local campaign and council attendance records were not up to scratch.

Ultimately she was not re-selected, despite a letter of support from council leader Sir Richard Leese.

She also lost a subsequent appeal. A fellow female councillor who went through the same process, again due to issues with her campaign record, was re-selected._

When she was still councillor she gave an interview to the Financial Times 

_“Separation is an issue. We have allowed the extremists space . . . They use our liberal values to push their extremism. Why are we tolerating it? Many Muslim countries do not.”

The state should be much tougher about dictating liberal values, particularly female equality, she said. “Why are we allowing Muslim parents to take their children out of [gym] lessons at 8 or 9 years old? If that was a white working class kid we would be involving social services.
_
It's not just the Sarah Champion Sun affair. Labour party internal politics - all sides will use any ism they can get their hands on.


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## The39thStep (Aug 28, 2017)

Another view on Amina Lonel and if the suggestion that she fell foul of the conservative community leaders that prop up the Labour votes are true then it's a disgrace
Amina Lone and the shame of the Labour Party in the UK – SEDAA – Our Voices


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## 19force8 (Aug 29, 2017)

Firstly, this doesn't belong on this thread.

Secondly, it's sheer bloody crap. If you don't turn up to do the job you get the sack. None of the mud slinging addresses that basic point.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Aug 29, 2017)

belboid said:


> She was deselected in June. Nothing to do with any recent articles.
> 
> Tedious bloody facts






19force8 said:


> Firstly, this doesn't belong on this thread.
> 
> Secondly, it's sheer bloody crap. If you don't turn up to do the job you get the sack. None of the mud slinging addresses that basic point.



When Anne Cryer tried to raise the issue of Muslim grooming she was accused of  being Islamaphobic and  of 'pandering to the BNP'. After Sarah Champion wrote an article on the same issue for _The Sun _15 years later she accused of 'pandering to racism' and was promptly sacked. When Amina Lone, a campaigner against fundamentalism among Muslims co-authored a letter to _The Times_ warning of "a strain of extremism that is a toxic masculinity" in June 2017 she was deselected by the time the month was out. 

Now the choreography isn't that important (whether Lone wrote the letter because she was already being targeted or sacked because of it) but the pattern is. 
In each case the message has been the same: 'Keep your head down and your mouth shut. Or else'. 

Now this might be a ticklish problem and difficult to reconcile but crushing free speech in order to meet self-defined anti-racist criteria isn't the way to do it. Particularly as the liberal establishment instinct to cover-up is nothing but a compound on the issue, which makes it inevitable it will all be played out within the political sphere eventually.  

So when the battle lines are drawn up where is anti-fascism to stand then?


----------



## killer b (Aug 29, 2017)

Amina lone was shortlisted to stand for parliament in the Gorton by election a month or so before her deselection. Seems a very sudden fall from grace.


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## 19force8 (Aug 29, 2017)

killer b said:


> Amina lone was shortlisted to stand for parliament in the Gorton by election a month or so before her deselection. Seems a very sudden fall from grace.


Bureaucracy 101 - the more dead wood you have on the shortlist the better chance your candidate will get through.

As for the rest of it - it doesn't belong under the history of AFA. Start your own thread. It isn't difficult.


----------



## killer b (Aug 29, 2017)

I'm just replying to some posts mate, not bothered about starting a new thread.


----------



## killer b (Aug 29, 2017)

that said, I think this is a fine place to discuss contemporary challenges of the type AFA rose to. Otherwise it's just a pipe & slippers thread.


----------



## 19force8 (Aug 29, 2017)

killer b said:


> I'm just replying to some posts mate, not bothered about starting a new thread.


Sorry, wasn't aimed at you - I was referring to posts further up. Sloppy of me 


> that said, I think this is a fine place to discuss contemporary challenges of the type AFA rose to. Otherwise it's just a pipe & slippers thread.


Fair point then.


----------



## sihhi (Aug 29, 2017)

Anne Cryer called for new restrictions on marriage if you weren't a citizen - pre-arrival language tests and sponsoring. She stayed as an MP until 2010 stopped when she felt she was too old. 
Those who called her Islamaphobic were probably part of an eventual plan that wanted to get her safe seat.

Sarah Champion attacked Corbyn and took part in the internal coup attempt to force Corbyn to resign (which failed) with a public letter attacking him for a “lack of energy and zeal” and "potentially destroying the Labour Party”. I think Corbyn wing got their own back by pointing to the provocative Sun headline.

I don't know the truth about Amina Lone, but there appears to be some local stuff going on.

Both 'sides', if they are that, seem to throw around characterisations of other Labour politicians 'supporting sexism (and hence aiding sex abuse)' versus other Labour politicians 'supporting racist stereotypes (and hence racism)' willy nilly for their own games. It's petty garbage.

Anti-fascism should be on the side of free speech and open dissent. The Labour Party has never stood for those things in general though.


----------



## 19force8 (Aug 29, 2017)

Joe Reilly said:


> When Anne Cryer tried to raise the issue of Muslim grooming she was accused of  being Islamaphobic and  of 'pandering to the BNP'. After Sarah Champion wrote an article on the same issue for _The Sun _15 years later she accused of 'pandering to racism' and was promptly sacked. When Amina Lone, a campaigner against fundamentalism among Muslims co-authored a letter to _The Times_ warning of "a strain of extremism that is a toxic masculinity" in June 2017 she was deselected by the time the month was out.
> 
> Now the choreography isn't that important (whether Lone wrote the letter because she was already being targeted or sacked because of it) but the pattern is.
> In each case the message has been the same: 'Keep your head down and your mouth shut. Or else'.
> ...


The allegations against Pakistanis are little or no different to those leveled against the Irish, against Jews, against West Indians, even against the Maltese, over the last couple of centuries. They are part of a bourgeois tradition of dividing the working class on racial lines in order to weaken it.

If you're really interested in opposing the fascists who want to make use of these divisions to smash all working class resistance and opposition then it might be worth your while reading Richard Seymour's brief, but excellent analysis of the latest moral panic to descend on us:



belboid said:


> Seymour has a decent piece on some of the questions raised Racism and sexual abuse | Richard Seymour on Patreon



Or you can join Jess Phillips as she doubles down on Sarah Champion to argue that Pakistani families are the real problem:

Labour MP accuses British Pakistanis of importing wives for disabled sons - Eastern Eye

Either way I'm not going to knock myself out.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Aug 29, 2017)

19force8 said:


> The allegations against Pakistanis are little or no different to those leveled against the Irish, against Jews, against West Indians, even against the Maltese, over the last couple of centuries. They are part of a bourgeois tradition of dividing the working class on racial lines in order to weaken it.



You're suggesting they're making the noncing allegations up in order to divide the working class?


----------



## 19force8 (Aug 29, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> You're suggesting they're making the noncing allegations up in order to divide the working class?


You believe Champion's right?

Try reading the Seymour article it answers your objections quite well.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 29, 2017)

19force8 said:


> The allegations against Pakistanis are little or no different to those leveled against the Irish, against Jews, against West Indians, even against the Maltese, over the last couple of centuries. They are part of a bourgeois tradition of dividing the working class on racial lines in order to weaken it.
> 
> If you're really interested in opposing the fascists who want to make use of these divisions to smash all working class resistance and opposition then it might be worth your while reading Richard Seymour's brief, but excellent analysis of the latest moral panic to descend on us:
> 
> ...



Quite remarkable that when British Pakistani men and women oppose sex gangs, patriarchy, sexism , tribalistic elders and other aspects of reactionary conservative ism in  they are labelled as aiding fascism.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 29, 2017)

19force8 said:


> The allegations against Pakistanis are little or no different to those leveled against the Irish, against Jews, against West Indians, even against the Maltese, over the last couple of centuries. They are part of a bourgeois tradition of dividing the working class on racial lines in order to weaken it.


I'd be grateful if you could link to sites about the similar or identical allegations made against the Irish, Jews etc


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Aug 29, 2017)

19force8 said:


> You believe Champion's right?
> 
> Try reading the Seymour article it answers your objections quite well.



It's all to do with 'the night time economy'. Become a cab driver or work in a kebab shop and you become an abuser. What a load of tosh.


----------



## killer b (Aug 29, 2017)

I think there is some merit to his argument about the access those in the night time economy have to vulnerable young women, tbf - paedophile rings do tend to coalesce around particular professions because of the opportunities they offer to indulge their tastes rather than the professions turning people into nonces. I don't think that's very controversial.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Aug 29, 2017)

Did all of the perpetrators share the same profession, or know each other for other reasons? I accept that working in the night economy might make abusers aware of vulnerable girls, I'm less convinced that working in the night economy turns people into abusers or that they'd choose to work in the night economy to give them access to kids when being a children's entertainer would probably bear more fruit.

It just smacks of desperation to find any other correlation between them.


----------



## killer b (Aug 29, 2017)

Oh, it makes total sense to me. Not saying there isn't a cultural aspect to this - I don't think Seymour completely explains it. But he's definitely onto something. 



Magnus McGinty said:


> I'm less convinced that working in the night economy turns people into abusers



Good job no-one has said this.



Magnus McGinty said:


> they'd choose to work in the night economy to give them access to kids when being a children's entertainer would probably bear more fruit.


Kids entertainers have almost no unsupervised access to kids. Taxi drivers have loads of unsupervised access to vulnerable, drunk young women.


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## Magnus McGinty (Aug 29, 2017)

Vulnerable underage girls usually having the kind of cash flow that enables them to get cabs everywhere. Yeah, ok.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 29, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> It's all to do with 'the night time economy'. Become a cab driver or work in a kebab shop and you become an abuser. What a load of tosh.



The night time economy brings opportunity. It brings these type of men into contact with vulnerable young people. 

But to suggest that this type of work is almost a motive, as Seymour does, puts the cart before the horse.


----------



## killer b (Aug 29, 2017)

Whatever. You've made up your mind, so I don't think I'll bother anymore. I just think he has a point and it's definitely something in the mix, not that it's all there is to it.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Aug 29, 2017)

His point relies on a single (unknown) source speaking to the Guardian to suggest working in the night time economy might play a role as Asian people tend to work as taxi drivers and in takeaways. That aside, I can't as of yet find a single article that states what the Newcastle perpetrators actually did for a living.

Most evidence points to them being drug dealers than taxi drivers or takeaway workers.


----------



## Sweet FA (Aug 29, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Vulnerable underage girls usually having the kind of cash flow that enables them to get cabs everywhere. Yeah, ok.


They weren't paying for the cabs.

Rotherham abuse survivors press for stricter taxi safety measures


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Aug 29, 2017)

Sweet FA said:


> They weren't paying for the cabs.
> 
> Rotherham abuse survivors press for stricter taxi safety measures



We were specifically discussing Newcastle where it's unclear what any of them did for a living. Maybe more info will emerge when the rest are convicted.


----------



## Sweet FA (Aug 29, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> We were specifically discussing Newcastle where it's unclear what any of them did for a living. Maybe more info will emerge when the rest are convicted.


Ah. Didn't read back.


----------



## killer b (Aug 29, 2017)

I wasn't talking specifically about Newcastle, and nor was Seymour.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Aug 29, 2017)

Well his opening paragraph is very misleading then.


----------



## killer b (Aug 29, 2017)

It really isn't. As with many pieces of writing, it widens to cover more than just the topic of the very first paragraph.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Aug 29, 2017)

It's a bizarre line of argument to tie Newcastle with Rochdale etc by the 'night economy' when we don't actually know what the former did for a living beyond the _suggestion_ that they worked for the 'night economy' by virtue of their 'race' (which he is trying to avoid with regards to their offending) when all we know is that they were involved in drug trafficking along with their other nefarious activities. In fact it's a racist premise that he presents in itself.


----------



## malatesta32 (Aug 29, 2017)

killer b said:


> I think there is some merit to his argument about the access those in the night time economy have to vulnerable young women, tbf - paedophile rings do tend to coalesce around particular professions because of the opportunities they offer to indulge their tastes rather than the professions turning people into nonces. I don't think that's very controversial.



there is a distinction between those who prey on vulnerable underage girls and pedophile rings. check the link in this: Far Right Sex Offenders (continued). [edited]


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 30, 2017)

malatesta32 said:


> there is a distinction between those who prey on vulnerable underage girls and pedophile rings. check the link in this: Far Right Sex Offenders (continued). [edited]


Mal , that's an interesting distinction that the article makes but a quite frightening figure that 75% of those who sexually abuse vulnerable teenagers are Asian. Going back to the night time economy , Greater Manchester Police score taxi firms, late night takeaways etc as potential high risk for vulnerable teenagers and pay passing visits as part of the child safeguarding strategy with the Councils.


----------



## killer b (Aug 30, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> 75% of those who sexually abuse vulnerable teenagers are Asian


those figures are specifically about groups of men carrying out sexual exploitation, which is much less common than individuals doing it (about which there are no ethnicity figures published).


----------



## killer b (Aug 30, 2017)

Just to be clear, I'm not trying to get anyone off the hook here - there is clearly a problem with sexual exploitation of vulnerable women and girls by groups of Asian men. I just think it's worth having an open mind to why and how this is happening - the contempt the women most vulnerable to exploitation are held in by grooming gangs is shared by wide swathes of the population, and they are the same women who are vulnerable to exploitation  by the pimps and pushers who operate solo and are much more numerous (and who presumably are of a more diverse range of ethnicities). What's unusual here isn't the exploitation, sadly - it's the _group_ nature of the exploitation. I think what Seymour touches on re: night time economy explains the way these groups form better than it being a moral failing on the part of a specific ethnic group.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 30, 2017)

killer b said:


> those figures are specifically about groups of men carrying out sexual exploitation, which is much less common than individuals doing it (about which there are no ethnicity figures published).


Yes but it's still a very disturbing figure


----------



## killer b (Aug 30, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> Yes but it's still a very disturbing figure


The figure is 75% of 300 recorded offenders (57 groups) in 2012. I don't know if you can really extrapolate too much from that by itself - figures could easily by skewed by operational priorities of police forces in such a small cohort. There was almost 10 times as many lone offenders.

As I said though, I'm not trying to get anyone off the hook.


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## The39thStep (Aug 30, 2017)

killer b said:


> The figure is 75% of 300 recorded offenders (57 groups) in 2012. I don't know if you can really extrapolate too much from that by itself - figures could easily by skewed by operational priorities of police forces in such a small cohort. There was almost 10 times as many lone offenders.
> 
> As I said though, I'm not trying to get anyone off the hook.



The only operational priorities that I could think of that would influence the figures are child safeguarding ie grooming gangs. Be interesting to see some more recent data.


----------



## killer b (Aug 30, 2017)

The report itself does point out that in 2012 there was high public concern re: grooming gangs because of a number of high profile cases (Rochdale and Rotherham I guess) - I've no doubt a lot of these networks will have been rolled up around then for this reason.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Aug 30, 2017)

19force8 said:


> The allegations against Pakistanis are little or no different to those leveled against the Irish, against Jews, against West Indians, even against the Maltese, over the last couple of centuries. They are part of a bourgeois tradition of dividing the working class on racial lines in order to weaken it.
> 
> If you're really interested in opposing the fascists who want to make use of these divisions to smash all working class resistance and opposition then it might be worth your while reading Richard Seymour's brief, but excellent analysis of the latest moral panic to descend upon us.



In summary:

'If you're really interested in opposing the fascists you must be prepared to stand shoulder to shoulder with the child rapists against them and their bourgeois sponsors'.
Cheers for clearing that up.


----------



## killer b (Aug 30, 2017)

It'd be nice if this discussion could be had without the tedious accusations / counteraccusations of racism/nonce apologism. Is that possible?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 30, 2017)

19force8 


Pickman's model said:


> I'd be grateful if you could link to sites about the similar or identical allegations made against the Irish, Jews etc


----------



## hot air baboon (Aug 30, 2017)

the taxi driver issue again  QI

Birmingham City Council hid links between Asian cabbies and child sex victims for 23 years

Dr Jesson said: “Every time a news item has come on about sexual grooming of young girls and girls in care, and the link, too, between private hire drivers, I have thought ‘I told them about that in 1991 but they didn’t want to acknowledge it’.

“I think the problem has got worse and worse over time.”

Dr Jesson was hired by the council to conduct the Government-funded study into the health issues of child prostitution involving girls in care. She identified 20 girls in care at that time who authorities believed had become involved in child prostitution.

“It wasn’t called grooming then, it was called prostitution,” Dr Jesson said. “The girls were all aged between 13 and 17 and were all under the care of Birmingham City Council social services.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Aug 30, 2017)

killer b said:


> Just to be clear, I'm not trying to get anyone off the hook here - there is clearly a problem with sexual exploitation of vulnerable women and girls by groups of Asian men. I just think it's worth having an open mind to why and how this is happening - the contempt the women most vulnerable to exploitation are held in by grooming gangs is shared by wide swathes of the population, and they are the same women who are vulnerable to exploitation  by the pimps and pushers who operate solo and are much more numerous (and who presumably are of a more diverse range of ethnicities). What's unusual here isn't the exploitation, sadly - it's the _group_ nature of the exploitation. I think what Seymour touches on re: night time economy explains the way these groups form better than it being a moral failing on the part of a specific ethnic group.



There are millions involved in the night-time economy not just Muslim men. So unless Seymour can point to examples of the grooming or children involving other ethnic or religious groupings then that particular argument must fall.


----------



## 19force8 (Aug 30, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> 19force8


As you ask so nicely:

The Irish

Julie Birchill in the Guardian 2002 described Ireland as being synonymous with "child molestation, Nazi-sympathising, and the oppression of women." Can't get my hands on the original Guardian column, please accept Unruly Julie: Julie Burchill: ThePost.ie courtesy of Wikipedia

Jews

Der Sturmer routinely featured stories about sexual exploitation of Aryan women by Jews. Rassenschande - Wikipedia

West Indians

Letter following the Notting Hill Race Riots accusing the victims of "drawing the dole and at the same time living on the immoral earnings of our women." Letter attacking Trades Union Congress statement following the Notting Hill riots  :: The Archive Vault

Maltese

This one arose from an extraordinary outburst at a Frank Dobson meeting in Camden 30 years ago by an old racist linking "Maltesers" and pimping/white slavery. Might have just been general anti-immigrant racism or could have been linked to this: The 'White Slave Trade' and the Musk Hall Affair in 1930s Malta on JSTOR


----------



## killer b (Aug 30, 2017)

Joe Reilly said:


> There are millions involved in the night-time economy not just Muslim men. So unless Seymour can point to examples of the grooming or children involving other ethnic or religious groupings then that particular argument must fall.


Here's one from where I live. Doubtless plenty more should you bother to look.

Preston takeaway staff jailed for sex abuse of underage girls - BBC News

Either way: I don't think he's totally right. But it is a factor.


----------



## killer b (Aug 30, 2017)

(Fwiw I'm given to understand by a social worker familiar with the case that there's also a asian grooming gang, centring on a particular taxi firm, in the process of being pulled in in Preston too)


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 30, 2017)

19force8 said:


> As you ask so nicely:
> 
> The Irish
> 
> ...



May have been linked to the fact that the Maltese controlled large parts the sex industry in Soho for years .


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Aug 30, 2017)

I wonder if there was any outcry from Seymour or the wider left over the Burchill article.


----------



## killer b (Aug 30, 2017)

Seymour is Irish, I'd imagine he'd take a view.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Aug 30, 2017)

True, bad example. The wider left point stands though.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Aug 30, 2017)

Preston takeaway staff jailed for sex abuse of underage girls - BBC News


killer b said:


> Here's one from where I live. Doubtless plenty more should you bother to look.
> 
> Preston takeaway staff jailed for sex abuse of underage girls - BBC News
> 
> Either way: I don't think he's totally right. But it is a factor.



The Preston example seems different for a number of reasons. It is suggested the premises was a 'sinister front' specifically set up for that purpose. The owner and staff were so inclined to begin with.  Also, the victims were tricked/lured/trapped (modelling offers) rather than groomed. And from the charges it looked like it might have been a one-off with each of the girls. Five victims in total. Rotherham alone had 1400 victims. Plus, they were often trafficked, when the groomers got tired of them. And who did they traffic them to? Night-time workers in other cities?

So it isn't about 'bothering to look'. If some sort of equivalence is to be drawn with the indigenous white population it would be a scandal of epidemic proportion. Impossible to ignore or deny. It would also involve other ethnic/religious minority groups of similar size. As neither seems to be the case this particular defense must fall.
Ultimately it only becomes 'a factor' if there is some sort of predisposition to take advantage of the opportunity afforded to begin with.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Aug 30, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> May have been linked to the fact that the Maltese controlled large parts the sex industry in Soho for years .


The same Maltese gangsters were also hired by the far-right to attack the 43 group.


----------



## killer b (Aug 30, 2017)

Joe Reilly said:


> Preston takeaway staff jailed for sex abuse of underage girls - BBC News
> 
> 
> The Preston example seems different for a number of reasons. It is suggested the premises was a 'sinister front' specifically set up for that purpose. The owner and staff were so inclined to begin with.  Also, the victims were tricked/lured/trapped (modelling offers) rather than groomed. And from the charges it looked like it might have been a one-off with each of the girls. Five victims in total. Rotherham alone had 1400 victims. Plus, they were often trafficked, when the groomers got tired of them. And who did they traffic them to? Night-time workers in other cities?
> ...


I wasn't drawing any equivalences - you asked for examples of grooming gangs from other ethnicities, so I gave you a recent example from my home town. But you've moved the goalposts again: THIS DEFENCE MUST FALL


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Aug 30, 2017)

killer b said:


> I wasn't drawing any equivalences - you asked for examples of grooming gangs from other ethnicities, so I gave you a recent example from my home town. But you've moved the goalposts again: THIS DEFENCE MUST FALL



He actually suggested what Seymour should be doing to make his hypothesis stand. 
Your calls for a sober discussion are somewhat undermined by this last post.


----------



## killer b (Aug 30, 2017)

I'm not demanding a sober discussion, just an honest one. You can't blame a man for taking a tilt at that kind of pomposity.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 30, 2017)

Joe Reilly said:


> The same Maltese gangsters were also hired by the far-right to attack the 43 group.


With razors in potatoes that they threw


----------



## malatesta32 (Aug 31, 2017)

killer b said:


> It'd be nice if this discussion could be had without the tedious accusations / counteraccusations of racism/nonce apologism. Is that possible?


no. its urban75.


----------



## 19force8 (Aug 31, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I wonder if there was any outcry from Seymour or the wider left over the Burchill article.


The _Lenin's Tomb_ blog began in June 2003, so probably not. As to the rest of the left there was most likely some mention of it, but Birchill was pretty much irrelevant by 2002.


----------



## doodlelogic (Aug 31, 2017)

"Rotherham had 1400 victims". Certainly not identified victims. The statistical methods behind this extrapolation are set out in the Jay report, but the figure has seeped into the public consciousness as proven fact. A critical reading of the Jay report is entirely absent from the media reporting, which is troubling given her role as the third chair of long stalled nationwide enquiry.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 31, 2017)

Ameena Lonely broke a vital taboo by criticising multicultural taboos – SEDAA – Our Voices


----------



## extra dry (Sep 1, 2017)

Is Violence the Way to Fight Racism?  what your view on this concept. 

Defence not violence may be a better answer.


----------



## 19force8 (Sep 1, 2017)

extra dry said:


> Is Violence the Way to Fight Racism?  what your view on this concept.


He's the definition of a liberal fuckwit is my view. He concludes Hitler came to power because the KPD an SPD defended themselves (and others) against fascist attack.



> Some antifa activists trace the origin of the movement to groups that fought against fascists in Europe in the 1920s and 1930s. In Germany, in the years before Hitler came to power, the Nazis’ paramilitary _Sturmabteilung_ (Stormtroopers, also known as the “Brownshirts”) beat up, sometimes fatally, Jews and political opponents. In self-defense, the left responded with its own militias: the Communist Party’s Red Front Fighters and the Social Democrats’ Iron Front.
> 
> The result was an escalation of street violence, and a sense, among the wider public, that law and order were breaking down. Many came to believe that a firm hand was required to restore order and stability. A firm hand was exactly the image that Hitler was trying to project, and as the violence worsened, the Nazi vote rose. We all know how that tragedy played out.





extra dry said:


> Defence not violence may be a better answer.


But he's against even self defence. So what is he proposing? That we allow the police to do their job? That could work, if their job was to protect vulnerable people and communities from racist and fascist violence, sadly it isn't.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 1, 2017)

19force8 said:


> He's the definition of a liberal fuckwit is my view. He concludes Hitler came to power because the KPD an SPD defended themselves (and others) against fascist attack.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeh singer's a cunt


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 1, 2017)

extra dry said:


> Is Violence the Way to Fight Racism?  what your view on this concept.
> 
> Defence not violence may be a better answer.


Attack famously best form of defence


----------



## LDC (Sep 1, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh singer's a cunt



He's got some well suspect political positions himself iirc (at least he has in the past).


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 1, 2017)

He'd kill a child for the greater good but not punch a fascist.


----------



## RD2003 (Sep 1, 2017)

19force8 said:


> The allegations against Pakistanis are little or no different to those leveled against the Irish, against Jews, against West Indians, even against the Maltese, over the last couple of centuries. They are part of a bourgeois tradition of dividing the working class on racial lines in order to weaken it.
> 
> If you're really interested in opposing the fascists who want to make use of these divisions to smash all working class resistance and opposition then it might be worth your while reading Richard Seymour's brief, but excellent analysis of the latest moral panic to descend on us:
> 
> ...



What happened that left you stranded in 1978?


----------



## Ole (Sep 2, 2017)

19force8 said:


> The allegations against Pakistanis are little or no different to those leveled against the Irish, against Jews, against West Indians, even against the Maltese, over the last couple of centuries. They are part of a bourgeois tradition of dividing the working class on racial lines in order to weaken it.
> 
> If you're really interested in opposing the fascists who want to make use of these divisions to smash all working class resistance and opposition then it might be worth your while reading Richard Seymour's brief, but excellent analysis of the latest moral panic to descend on us:
> 
> ...





Magnus McGinty said:


> You're suggesting they're making the noncing allegations up in order to divide the working class?



FYI: This poisonous cunt 19force8 also said that anti-Islamic extremism protests are racist by definition.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 2, 2017)

Ole said:


> FYI: This poisonous cunt 19force8 also said that anti-Islamic extremism protests are racist by definition.



Disgusting. He seems the type.


----------



## Ole (Sep 2, 2017)

He couldn't be a more effective magnet between the poles of fascism and the working-class, if his fucking life depended on it. 

Top anti-fascist.  for FUCK'S SAKE.


----------



## 19force8 (Sep 2, 2017)

Ole said:


> FYI: This poisonous cunt 19force8 also said that anti-Islamic extremism protests are racist by definition.


Yeah, right. So when I get to Keighley this afternoon which side of the road should I look for you? Those protesting against the fascist EDL or with the EDL "_demonstrating about the outrageous sexual grooming and abuse of English girls by Muslim men_"?


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 2, 2017)

19force8 said:


> Yeah, right. So when I get to Keighley this afternoon which side of the road should I look for you? Those protesting against the fascist EDL or with the EDL "_demonstrating about the outrageous sexual grooming and abuse of English girls by Muslim men_"?


The choice you give is only so black and white due to the absence of any left demonstration in support of victims of sexual grooming .


----------



## Athos (Sep 2, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> The choice you give is only so black and white due to the absence of any left demonstration in support of victims of sexual grooming .



This. When the left doesn't address the state failing these working class kids, it gives the right the space to position themselves as the only ones who care.


----------



## belboid (Sep 2, 2017)

This is a most confused bit of thread. Goalposts shifting quicker as the Championistas try to work out how to defend her comments without being bigots. 

Just what are you all claiming? That champion is right to say "Britain has a problem with British Pakistani men raping and exploiting white girls”? Or is it Muslims? Or Asians? The terms have all been used as if interchangeable in the media, and all used here too. Just what is 'the problem' - and what's it's solution (final or otherwise?). 

Facts are, even in the cases under discussion, they haven't all been pakistani, and not the same branch of Islam. Which means they're not all from a 'common culture' in that, crude, way. So what is it? Where we see where the perpetrators have worked, it's in the night time economy. But, apparently, that's irrelevant. Similarly, employing the 'boyfriend model' of abuse is hardly restricted to the Pakistani/Asian/Muslim community, so why pretend it is?

It's bizarre really, generally this thread has opposed 'racialising' issues, and pointed out that they should be tackled on a class basis. Why is that being forgotten now?


----------



## RD2003 (Sep 2, 2017)

Athos said:


> This. When the left doesn't address the state failing these working class kids, it gives the right the space to position themselves as the only ones who care.





Athos said:


> This. When the left doesn't address the state failing these working class kids, it gives the right the space to position themselves as the only ones who care.


'The left' isn't interested in any concrete way in the working class, and hasn't been for a long time.

To the Trot and Stalinoid sects and the liberal left, the working class is just another troublesome enemy that needs conquering and taming.


----------



## RD2003 (Sep 2, 2017)

belboid said:


> This is a most confused bit of thread. Goalposts shifting quicker as the Championistas try to work out how to defend her comments without being bigots.
> 
> Just what are you all claiming? That champion is right to say "Britain has a problem with British Pakistani men raping and exploiting white girls”? Or is it Muslims? Or Asians? The terms have all been used as if interchangeable in the media, and all used here too. Just what is 'the problem' - and what's it's solution (final or otherwise?).
> 
> ...


Who on this thread is racialising the issue?


----------



## belboid (Sep 2, 2017)

Athos said:


> This. When the left doesn't address the state failing these working class kids, it gives the right the space to position themselves as the only ones who care.


Doing what, precisely? I've seen the local left damning the cuts to services by the state that leave these kids in danger. I've seen them demand extra support for the workers charged with protecting them. And I've seen them demanding the kids be believed when they come forward with accusations. 

No, there haven't been big well covered demo's over those issues, and there should have been. But it just isn't true the 'left' aren't doing anything.


----------



## belboid (Sep 2, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> Who on this thread is racialising the issue?


Everyone defending the idea that it's a Pakistani/Asian/Muslim problem. 

Child abuse happens in all communities, singling out one - especially if done so crudely that it condemns every member - doesn't help.


----------



## Ole (Sep 2, 2017)

19force8 said:


> Yeah, right. So when I get to Keighley this afternoon which side of the road should I look for you? Those protesting against the fascist EDL or with the EDL "_demonstrating about the outrageous sexual grooming and abuse of English girls by Muslim men_"?


You're doing their work better than they are.


----------



## Fedayn (Sep 2, 2017)

Have any of the children abused by these gangs been of the same/similar origin to the abusers?


----------



## belboid (Sep 2, 2017)

Fedayn said:


> Have any of the children abused by these gangs been of the same/similar origin to the abusers?



Some in Rotherham were (a small minority)


----------



## Fedayn (Sep 2, 2017)

belboid said:


> Some in Rotherham were (a small minority)



So, the vast majority were from a different/racial/ethnic/national background? The fact the vast majority were not from their community? That they decided it was ok to do that to children from other communities but not theirs? And that was not a racialized decision?


----------



## belboid (Sep 2, 2017)

I don't believe it was the main criteria. So why make it into the main aspect? I mean, I know why the right do, but supposed leftists?

35 cops still under investigation for ignoring, or even covering up, the abuse. No question they were just scared of being called racists. They were just cunts.


----------



## Fedayn (Sep 2, 2017)

belboid said:


> I don't believe it was the main criteria. So why make it into the main aspect? I mean, I know why the right do, but supposed leftists?
> 
> 35 cops still under investigation for ignoring, or even covering up, the abuse. No question they were just scared of being called racists. They were just cunts.



You don't believe it was the main criteria? Even though the evidence is pretty clear that in some way, and by stating 'main criteria', you implicitly admit it was a criteria for their decisions and yet you attack others for racialising the issue when you accept that it was the perpetrators themselves who have racialized it as part of their modus operandi?

As for the police, yet another example of their not giving a fuck about young working class lassies, thinking they are unbelievable, dispensible kids who aren't worthy of being helped..... Added to that the evidence that some of the professionals believed they were little slags who were happy to be involved and their utterly gutless refusal to dare think this was happening.....


----------



## belboid (Sep 2, 2017)

Lots of things have a racial element. Police brutality, unemployment, educational achievement. Generally, on this thread, making the racial aspect the central one has been condemned. But not in this instance. The contradiction is glaring.


----------



## Fedayn (Sep 2, 2017)

belboid said:


> Lots of things have a racial element. Police brutality, unemployment, educational achievement. Generally, on this thread, making the racial aspect the central one has been condemned. But not in this instance. The contradiction is glaring.



But the facts regarding the perpetrators racializing their entire MO is downplayed by you, you have decided, even knowing the evidence regarding the racial/ethnic/national background, that people you have never met, did not make their main criteria. Based on what evidence have you made that decision?


----------



## Joe Reilly (Sep 2, 2017)

Athos said:


> This. When the left doesn't address the state failing these working class kids, it gives the right the space to position themselves as the only ones who care.



Adherence to identity politics has locked the liberal left into a state of constant vigilance to defend members of ethnic minorities and ethnic minorities as a whole regardless of what a minority within the minority might be involved in, or what if any responsibility the minority community itself might carry in that regard. It is simply not open for debate. Identity politics demands that carte blanche absolution is the only acceptable order of the day. Therefore anyone drawing attention to the disproportionate numbers of any community involved in any form disreputable behavior is instantly allotted the role of racist or fascist propagandist. Guilty until proved otherwise.

Media, MP's anti-fascists, especially working class ones (always suspect anyway) are casually classified thus. There is no context. It is evident on this thread. They have transgressed against identity politics mores, and that is it. Naturally there is zero regard for how this posturing is going down with the watching public. After all most of them are racist and fascist (Brexit/Trump proves this surely?) as well.
Of course the problem is once everyone, in a sort of 'Dear White People...' way, is deigned to be racist and fascist, then by the same token,  no one is.


----------



## chilango (Sep 2, 2017)

Until recently my work involved a lot of child protection stuff and I was involved in a number of serious CSE cases and so on.

Whilst I'm not going to say anymore about them here, I will say one thing.

The discussions we had around strategy were very, very different to the one being had on here.


----------



## belboid (Sep 2, 2017)

Fedayn said:


> But the facts regarding the perpetrators racializing their entire MO is downplayed by you, you have decided, even knowing the evidence regarding the racial/ethnic/national background, that people you have never met, did not make their main criteria. Based on what evidence have you made that decision?


The main criteria is child abuse. I can't see how anyone can deny that.


----------



## Ole (Sep 2, 2017)

belboid said:


> Lots of things have a racial element. Police brutality, unemployment, educational achievement. Generally, on this thread, making the racial aspect the central one has been condemned. But not in this instance. The contradiction is glaring.



Centralising the racial aspect isn't the question - stop lying.

Acknowledging the racial aspect of certain cases of child abuse is what you are attacking people for.


----------



## belboid (Sep 2, 2017)

Ole said:


> Centralising the racial aspect isn't the question - stop lying.


Of course it is, stop being a fool. When the Sun demands a solution to the 'Muslim problem' that isn't just a bit salty, it's clearly centralising race, and being racist. 




> Acknowledging





> the racial aspect of certain cases of child abuse is what you are attacking people for.


Now that's a lie.


----------



## Ole (Sep 2, 2017)

belboid said:


> Of course it is, stop being a fool. When the Sun demands a solution to the 'Muslim problem' that isn't just a bit salty, it's clearly centralising race, and being racist.
> 
> 
> Now that's a lie.


On here, not The Sun you bellend. 

It's not a lie. You're in denial and you're a coward.


----------



## Ole (Sep 2, 2017)

Joe Reilly said:


> Adherence to identity politics has locked the liberal left into a state of constant vigilance to defend members of ethnic minorities and ethnic minorities as a whole regardless of what a minority within the minority might be involved in, or what if any responsibility the minority community itself might carry in that regard. It is simply not open for debate. Identity politics demands that carte blanche absolution is the only acceptable order of the day. Therefore anyone drawing attention to the disproportionate numbers of any community involved in any form disreputable behavior is instantly allotted the role of racist or fascist propagandist. Guilty until proved otherwise.
> 
> Media, MP's anti-fascists, especially working class ones (always suspect anyway) are casually classified thus. There is no context. It is evident on this thread. They have transgressed against identity politics mores, and that is it. Naturally there is zero regard for how this posturing is going down with the watching public. After all most of them are racist and fascist (Brexit/Trump proves this surely?) as well.
> Of course the problem is once everyone, in a sort of 'Dear White People...' way, is deigned to be racist and fascist, then by the same token,  no one is.



'No black person can be racist.'

'Except that black person over there saying that they can.'

I think that's how it goes.


----------



## Fedayn (Sep 2, 2017)

belboid said:


> The main criteria is child abuse. I can't see how anyone can deny that.



No one is though, you are however are trying to utterly downplay it to the point where you are suggesting that anyone who is looking at it as 'supposed Leftists'.

I suggested it being a main criteria for their MO, not the actual crime, which as you know are two seperate things. The crime is clear the MO is not the actual crime. 2 seperate things you are trying to conflate to smear people.


----------



## belboid (Sep 2, 2017)

Ole said:


> On here, not The Sun you bellend.
> 
> It's not a lie. You're in denial and you're a coward.


On here too. It was the starting point for Joke Reilly. Get your head out of his arse b


----------



## belboid (Sep 2, 2017)

Fedayn said:


> No one is though, you are however are trying to utterly downplay it to the point where you are suggesting that anyone who is looking at it as 'supposed Leftists'.
> 
> I suggested it being a main criteria for their MO, not the actual crime, which as you know are two seperate things. The crime is clear the MO is not the actual crime. 2 seperate things you are trying to conflate to smear people.


See above. 

But okay, even accepting that, I stick by my previous point - the main criteria is girls with chaotic lifestyles who the 'system' ignore. Race is secondary.


----------



## belboid (Sep 2, 2017)

I repeat my previous questions:

What precisely is 'the problem'? 

And what is the 'solution'?


----------



## RD2003 (Sep 2, 2017)

belboid said:


> I repeat my previous questions:
> 
> What precisely is 'the problem'?
> 
> And what is the 'solution'?


Here's Belboid recently.


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 2, 2017)

Problem seems to be girls with chaotic lifestyles that the system ignores and Asian men who mainly work in the night time economy systematically abusing them .


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 2, 2017)

belboid said:


> I repeat my previous questions:
> 
> What precisely is 'the problem'?
> 
> And what is the 'solution'?


you seem to have forgotten about these previous questions, chuck:


belboid said:


> I don't believe it was the main criteria. So why make it into the main aspect? I mean, I know why the right do, but supposed leftists?
> 
> 35 cops still under investigation for ignoring, or even covering up, the abuse. No question they were just scared of being called racists. They were just cunts.


----------



## 19force8 (Sep 2, 2017)

Ole said:


> FYI: This poisonous cunt 19force8 also said that anti-Islamic extremism protests are racist by definition.


Oh dear, It's That Man Again.

You know, the one who's quite happy with the working class being murdered and maimed as long as the terrorists are white.

But he's not a racist, oh no.


----------



## Ole (Sep 2, 2017)

19force8 said:


> Oh dear, It's That Man Again.
> 
> You know, the one who's quite happy with the working class being murdered and maimed as long as the terrorists are white.
> 
> But he's not a racist, oh no.


Have you hit your head on something very hard?

Or knocking back the spirits, perhaps?


----------



## 19force8 (Sep 2, 2017)

Ole said:


> Have you hit your head on something very hard?
> 
> Or knocking back the spirits, perhaps?


I'm not surprised you don't like being reminded of when you justified the PIRA bombing, murdering and maiming their way through these islands because they were "anti-imperialists."

Twat


----------



## Ole (Sep 2, 2017)

19force8 said:


> I'm not surprised you don't like being reminded of when you justified the PIRA bombing, murdering and maiming their way through these islands because they were "anti-imperialists."
> 
> Twat


Oh yes - you mean when you were condemning anti-jihadists as Islamophobic, and analogising the relationship of ISIS with Muslims to the IRA with the Irish of the past? And I condemned you for it?

The sheer lack of self-awareness - of how ridiculously shit your views look to normal people - will finish you before anything else will.


----------



## Athos (Sep 2, 2017)

belboid said:


> Doing what, precisely? I've seen the local left damning the cuts to services by the state that leave these kids in danger. I've seen them demand extra support for the workers charged with protecting them. And I've seen them demanding the kids be believed when they come forward with accusations.
> 
> No, there haven't been big well covered demo's over those issues, and there should have been. But it just isn't true the 'left' aren't doing anything.



Most of the response I've seen has been finger-wagging, telling working class people off for being racist, without offering anything else.


----------



## 19force8 (Sep 2, 2017)

Ole said:


> Oh yes - you mean when you were condemning anti-jihadists as Islamophobic, and analogising the relationship of ISIS with Muslims to the IRA with the Irish of the past? And I condemned you for it?
> 
> The sheer lack of self-awareness - of how ridiculously shit your views look to normal people - will finish you before anything else will.


And It's That Man Again, again.

I did no such thing, but I know your ability to understand simple English is limited so you won't quote what I actually said because it shows you up for the blowhard you are.

Even so you were clear that the PIRA's terrorism was justified. No mention of the damage they did to so many working class families, because that doesn't matter if the cause is justified, does it?


----------



## Ole (Sep 2, 2017)

19force8 said:


> And It's That Man Again, again.
> 
> I did no such thing, but I know your ability to understand simple English is limited so you won't quote what I actually said because it shows you up for the blowhard you are.
> 
> Even so you were clear that the PIRA's terrorism was justified. No mention of the damage they did to so many working class families, because that doesn't matter if the cause is justified, does it?



Utterly false. I condemned you for comparing them to ISIS jihadists, and I called the IRA anti-imperialist terrorists because that is factually what they were.

I never said anything to the effect of terrorism (as a means) is justified by the ends (anti-imperialism).

Here are your quotes of which you are clearly so proud:



19force8 said:


> What is a march "against extremism" for?
> 
> Is it for working with Muslim communities helping them fight the racism discrimination and abuse they face?
> 
> ...





19force8 said:


> Although I would challenge your assertion that an "anti-Islamic extremism protest" could be non-racist.


----------



## 19force8 (Sep 2, 2017)

So once again - a march against Islamic extremism would be justified when one against PIRA wasn't because...?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 2, 2017)

19force8 said:


> So once again - a march against Islamic extremism would be justified when one against PIRA wasn't because...?



One is fascist and the other isn't?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 2, 2017)

19force8 said:


> So once again - a march against Islamic extremism would be justified when one against PIRA wasn't because...?


what is islamick extremism?


----------



## 19force8 (Sep 2, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> what is islamick extremism? why would you hold a march against a concept?


I don't want to, ITMA does. Or rather he thinks the left should. One concept marching against another - the man's a genius.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 2, 2017)

19force8 said:


> I don't want to, ITMA does. Or rather he thinks the left should. One concept marching against another - the man's a genius.


Ole? perhaps we could have a definition of islamick extremism off him first.


----------



## Ole (Sep 2, 2017)

19force8 said:


> I don't want to, ITMA does. Or rather he thinks the left should. One concept marching against another - the man's a genius.





Pickman's model said:


> Ole? perhaps we could have a definition of islamick extremism off him first.


No, that equivocation of 'Islamic extremism' and 'ISIS jihadism' was the work of 19force8. 

These quotes come from a discussion in another thread following a march against ISIS in London, organised by thousands of football fans following the ISIS terrorist attacks in Manchester and London.

Why should the left demonstrate against ISIS jihadist terrorists? 

To let the working-class know whose side the left is on. There is significant doubt, because of people like 19force8.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 2, 2017)

Ole said:


> organised by thousands of football fans


do you know, i doubt that's true


----------



## Ole (Sep 2, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> do you know, i doubt that's true


I meant attended by and organised by.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 2, 2017)

Ole said:


> I meant attended by and organised by.


right. and by the left, who do you mean? the labour party? the unions?


----------



## Ole (Sep 2, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> right. and by the left, who do you mean? the labour party? the unions?


I meant anti-fascists.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 2, 2017)

Ole said:


> I meant anti-fascists.


right. is there anything else in your post 6511 you'd like to change?



Ole said:


> No, that equivocation of 'Islamic extremism' and 'ISIS jihadism' was the work of 19force8.
> 
> These quotes come from a discussion in another thread following a march against ISIS in London, organised by thousands of football fans following the ISIS terrorist attacks in Manchester and London.
> 
> ...


----------



## Ole (Sep 2, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> right. is there anything else in your post 6511 you'd like to change?


Do a spell check and get back to me you boring twat.


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 2, 2017)

chilango said:


> Until recently my work involved a lot of child protection stuff and I was involved in a number of serious CSE cases and so on.
> 
> Whilst I'm not going to say anymore about them here, I will say one thing.
> 
> The discussions we had around strategy were very, very different to the one being had on here.


In what way?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 2, 2017)

Ole said:


> Do a spell check and get back to me you boring twat.


i didn't mean the spelling, just whether it turned out you meant something different by the words, being as you seem to have great difficulty meaning what you say


----------



## Joe Reilly (Sep 2, 2017)

chilango said:


> The39thStep said:
> 
> 
> > Problem seems to be girls with chaotic lifestyles that the system ignores and Asian men who mainly work in the night time economy systematically abusing them .



...and a floppy Islamaphilic Left working tirelessly to slam shut each and every attempt to get to the bottom of it. For them there 'simply isn't a problem'. And if there isn't a problem then there is nothing to resolve.


----------



## chilango (Sep 2, 2017)

Huh? I didn't say that?


----------



## chilango (Sep 2, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> In what way?



Difficult to say without either going into specifics (which I won't) or into meaningless vagueness.

It's not my intention to support either side in the debate in here, it just struck me upon reading the discussion here.

Sorry, I know that's not helpful.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 2, 2017)

chilango said:


> Difficult to say without either going into specifics (which I won't) or into meaningless vagueness.
> 
> It's not my intention to support either side in the debate in here, it just struck me upon reading the discussion here.
> 
> Sorry, I know that's not helpful.



Then why make the post in the first place?


----------



## chilango (Sep 2, 2017)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Then why make the post in the first place?



Fair point.

For my own benefit, rather than the discussions, perhaps? 

I want to say more, but can't find an appropriate way of doing so. It's frustrating that I can't do so.

Again, I'm sorry if it's still not helpful.


----------



## Ole (Sep 3, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> i didn't mean the spelling, just whether it turned out you meant something different by the words, being as you seem to have great difficulty meaning what you say


Yes, I was taken apart by your probing questions that could've only been matched in sophistication by a 5-year old child.


----------



## belboid (Sep 3, 2017)

Joe Reilly said:


> ...and a floppy Islamaphilic Left working tirelessly to slam shut each and every attempt to get to the bottom of it. For them there 'simply isn't a problem'. And if there isn't a problem then there is nothing to resolve.


You aren't trying to 'get to the bottom of it' tho. You can't even work our what the problem is, still less offer any solutions. In fact, you don't seem to give a shit about the victims, it's just another reason for you to go your usual lefty bashing.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Sep 4, 2017)

belboid said:


> You aren't trying to 'get to the bottom of it' tho. You can't even work our what the problem is, still less offer any solutions.
> 
> In fact, you don't seem to give a shit about the victims, it's just another reason for you to go your usual lefty bashing.



With the exception of the liberal left everyone knows what the problem is. The solution is equally simple. Apply the law without fear or favour across the communal divide.

If I supported a party, who suppressed evidence on an enormous scandal because it was ideologically embarrassing for a quarter of a century; if I smeared whistle-blowers as fascists and racists, if I continued with sacking of campaigners for the rights of victims long after the scandal was uncovered, if I supported a leader who still insists 'there isn't a problem' after multiple trials and convictions, then you would have an argument.

As it is your allegations illustrate with precision the upside down world you inhabit.

Across Europe social democracy is on the ropes. So the liberal left has taken anti-racism and anti-fascism hostage in order to provide political cover.

Come the crunch all the indications are it will sacrifice them without a qualm in a futile attempt to buy time for itself.


----------



## mojo pixy (Sep 4, 2017)

Sexual abuse is _wrong_. It's wrong for _everyone_. It's not more wrong for Muslims ffs.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 4, 2017)

mojo pixy said:


> Sexual abuse is _wrong_. It's wrong for _everyone_. It's not more wrong for Muslims ffs.



Agreed. But nobody here has suggested otherwise.


----------



## 19force8 (Sep 4, 2017)

Joe Reilly said:


> With the exception of the liberal left everyone knows what the problem is. The solution is equally simple. Apply the law without fear or favour across the communal divide.
> 
> If I supported a party, who suppressed evidence on an enormous scandal because it was ideologically embarrassing for a quarter of a century; if I smeared whistle-blowers as fascists and racists, if I continued with sacking of campaigners for the rights of victims long after the scandal was uncovered, if I supported a leader who still insists 'there isn't a problem' after multiple trials and convictions, then you would have an argument.
> 
> ...


This is one of the more bizarre (non-satirical) posts I've seen on Urban

What exactly is the "liberal" left?

"_Everyone knows what the problem is_" - and 65 million people can't be wrong, especially when they get their information from the _Sun_, _Express_, etc. Weak!

Protect us from the simple solutions to complex problems and who argued for the law being applied unequally?

Which party suppressed all this evidence for such a long time, smeared whistle-blowers, sacked campaigners even after the scandal was uncovered? All for 25 years - fuck me they should give lessons to the SWP.

Which leader said there wasn't a problem? Or did they just disagree with "everyone" about what the problem was?

As for having the world turned upside down. We can't have that can we? We wouldn't be able to look up to our betters?

The "_liberal left has taken anti-racism and anti-fascism hostage_" has it? What does this even mean? Are they keeping them prisoner in the _Guardian_'s archives?

How will the liberal left sacrifice anti-racism and anti-fascism? How much time will this buy them and what will they do with it?

ffs, at least Ole posts most of his shite after the pubs close. What's your excuse?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 4, 2017)




----------



## belboid (Sep 5, 2017)

Joe Reilly said:


> With the exception of the liberal left everyone knows what the problem is. The solution is equally simple. Apply the law without fear or favour across the communal divide.
> 
> If I supported a party, who suppressed evidence on an enormous scandal because it was ideologically embarrassing for a quarter of a century; if I smeared whistle-blowers as fascists and racists, if I continued with sacking of campaigners for the rights of victims long after the scandal was uncovered, if I supported a leader who still insists 'there isn't a problem' after multiple trials and convictions, then you would have an argument.
> 
> ...


The only problem with this is, its all rubbish.

There is no evidence the law isn't equally applied 'across the communal divide.'  The non enforcement of the law was due to professionals - coppers and social services - not listening to or believing the girls involved.  There is absolutely zero evidence that either ignored the girls due to fears about racism. None whatsoever. There are dozens of coppers currently under investigation for their failures to act, no mentions of fears re racism being raised in their defense so far.

Likewise, you have provided no evidence about Labour having suppressed this scandal, still less doing so for a quarter of a century. Ann Cryer raised concerns in 2003, and it did indeed take too long to take them seriously. She does, I agree, believe fears of racism held her campaign back. But the other two women you have referred to do not accept that. I know you don't believe them, but that's your problem.  And, even if we accepted your argument, it is still not evidence of a 25 year history of wholesale slanders and sackings.

The muslim community will (fairly obviously) be a central part of any campaign to reduce such misogynistic attitudes within their community (attitudes that exist within every community, but you dont seem to care about any others), and it should be obvious that starting it with a 'What do we do about the Muslim Problem?' is only going to put massive barriers in the way of doing that successfully. If you want to make a difference, not just a noise, they need to be centrally involved. 

And, as for the death of social democracy...well, in case you hadn't noticed, it's had a surprising rebirth over the last couple of years. More votes in this country since 1997, the highest vote for a socialist ever in the US, an insurgent French left campaign.  None of them quite won, or are really radical enough, but to say it is on the ropes everywhere is just plain wrong. I know it was your one insight into politics over the last 25 years, and most of us would have agreed with it up until a couple of years ago. But things change, in unexpected ways. And that resurgence is real.

Finally, why is this topic on this thread? it has absolutely nothing to do with the history of AFA, one might almost think that you his it here so only your small band of co-thinkers would see it and could indulge in a nice circle jerk.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Sep 5, 2017)

AFA winning on the streets and on the bookshelves:

_"Despite its prominence and large membership in the 1970s and its relaunch in the early 1990s (Bambery 1992), the ANL has not attracted as much literature as the numerically smaller AFA"_

British Anti-Fascism since 1967 — A Bibliographic Survey

Also:



> The most detailed account of AFA is Birchall’s comprehensive history (2010). Written by a group of former activists using a _nom de guerre_, it chronicles AFA’s activities from the original squads in the late 1970s to its official formation in 1985, relaunch in 1989 and demise in the mid-90s. AFA was always the most physically effective of the contemporary street-based anti-fascist groups and the book features some graphic descriptions of violent conflicts with the far right. However, despite some macho posturing, this is no hooligan memoir and the book also attempts a political justification for the group’s militant ‘No Platform’ approach that denied the far right space in which to organise and which has been seen as influencing the BNP’s decision to abandon street protest for locally-focused electoral politics (Hayes and Aylward 2000). One criticism is that the book is very focussed on Red Action and the South East so does not do justice to AFA’s Northern Network which was dominated more by anarchists and independent anti-fascists (Anon., 2007).


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 5, 2017)

belboid said:


> And, as for the death of social democracy...well, in case you hadn't noticed, it's had a surprising rebirth over the last couple of years. More votes in this country since 1997, the highest vote for a socialist ever in the US, an insurgent French left campaign.  None of them quite won, or are really radical enough, but to say it is on the ropes everywhere is just plain wrong. I know it was your one insight into politics over the last 25 years, and most of us would have agreed with it up until a couple of years ago. But things change, in unexpected ways. And that resurgence is real.


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 5, 2017)

Ole said:


> Yes, I was taken apart by your probing questions that could've only been matched in sophistication by a 5-year old child.


run out and find me a five year old child


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 5, 2017)

Said the Asian guy to the.....oh bad taste. Let's not.


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 5, 2017)

belboid said:


> The only problem with this is, its all rubbish.
> 
> There is no evidence the law isn't equally applied 'across the communal divide.'  The non enforcement of the law was due to professionals - coppers and social services - not listening to or believing the girls involved.  There is absolutely zero evidence that either ignored the girls due to fears about racism. None whatsoever. There are dozens of coppers currently under investigation for their failures to act, no mentions of fears re racism being raised in their defense so far.
> 
> ...



1.Your point about how the agencies dealt/didn't deal with  with 'troubled' girls is absolutely correct.
2.However  fear of racism and relying on ethic minority staff to advise on cultural issues regardless of their own experience or qualification due to that anxiety have been themes in both the Rochdale and Victoria Climbie inquiries. 
3.Add to this the local political concerns about upsetting the applecart in some areas , social cohesion or in some cases votes where Labour relies on conservative populist 'community leaders' and the top down management of that anxiety to both Council and Police staff and you get a situation of wilful inactivity and paralysis. 
4. Nazir Afzal the former Head of CPS  for Manchester who dealt with the Rochdale cases and others in GM is quite clear that their is a specific  problem in some Muslim communities about mysonogy which needs to be urgently addressed.
5.Those Asian women and men who have spoken out are quickly silenced.
5. I know that when I worked for the Council and the Police and had a sexual exploitation case involving a group of  girls the biggest sigh of relief was that one of the victims was black and the perpetrators were both Asian and black and that an EDL campaign was unlikely.


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 5, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Said the Asian guy to the.....oh bad taste. Let's not.


Not fair and not funny Magnus. You are capable of making better jokes and better contributions.


----------



## mojo pixy (Sep 6, 2017)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Agreed. But nobody here has suggested otherwise.



That Joe Reilly seems to be in the vicinity of such a suggestion, hence my post.


----------



## Ole (Sep 6, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> run out and find me a five year old child


----------



## cantsin (Sep 6, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Said the Asian guy to the.....oh bad taste. Let's not.



making shitty borderline racist non jokes on a lefty interweb forum deffo makes you a proper lad, impressive, well done


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 6, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Said the Asian guy to the.....oh bad taste. Let's not.


thought you'd be a marxist of the groucho sort.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 6, 2017)

cantsin said:


> making shitty borderline racist non jokes on a lefty interweb forum deffo makes you a proper lad, impressive, well done



It's not funny enough to defend but it pertains to the topic.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 6, 2017)

belboid said:


> There is absolutely zero evidence that either ignored the girls due to fears about racism. None whatsoever.



"In the broader organisational context, however, there was a widespread perception that messages conveyed by some senior people in the Council and also the Police, were to 'downplay' the ethnic dimensions of CSE. Unsurprisingly, frontline staff appeared to be confused as to what they were supposed to say and do and what would be interpreted as 'racist'. From a political perspective, the approach of avoiding public discussion of the issues was ill judged.
There was too much reliance by agencies on traditional community leaders such as elected members and imams as being the primary conduit of communication with the Pakistani-heritage community. The Inquiry spoke to several Pakistani-heritage women who felt disenfranchised by this and thought it was a barrier to people coming forward to talk about CSE. Others believed there was wholesale denial of the problem in the Pakistani-heritage community in the same way that other forms of abuse were ignored. Representatives of women's groups were frustrated that interpretations of the Borough's problems with CSE were often based on an assumption that similar abuse did not take place in their own community and therefore concentrated mainly on young white girls". (Jay report on Rotherham p91)

"The issue [of CSE perpetrators] was predominately Asian men and they were scared that would cause a problem. We would tell them that in the forums and they were uncomfortable. Stats on ethnicity were taken out of presentations. There was resistance to focusing on who the perpetrators were.” (A voluntary sector worker in Rotherham quoted in Casey report, page 32 onwards DCLG 2015)

 “They (the politicians) wanted to use any other word than Asian males. They were terrified of [the impact on] community cohesion.” (poice officer quoted in Casey report

“[My] experience of council as it was and is – Asian men very powerful, and the white British are very mindful of racism and frightened of racism allegations so there is no robust challenge. They had massive influence in the town. For example, I know all the backgrounds to the Asian Councillors...but don’t know anything about white Members. Not about race only but the power and influence – the family links in those
communities are still very strong. Definitely an issue of race.” (police officer quoted in Casey)


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 6, 2017)

Smokeandsteam said:


> "In the broader organisational context, however, there was a widespread perception that messages conveyed by some senior people in the Council and also the Police, were to 'downplay' the ethnic dimensions of CSE. Unsurprisingly, frontline staff appeared to be confused as to what they were supposed to say and do and what would be interpreted as 'racist'. From a political perspective, the approach of avoiding public discussion of the issues was ill judged.
> There was too much reliance by agencies on traditional community leaders such as elected members and imams as being the primary conduit of communication with the Pakistani-heritage community. The Inquiry spoke to several Pakistani-heritage women who felt disenfranchised by this and thought it was a barrier to people coming forward to talk about CSE. Others believed there was wholesale denial of the problem in the Pakistani-heritage community in the same way that other forms of abuse were ignored. Representatives of women's groups were frustrated that interpretations of the Borough's problems with CSE were often based on an assumption that similar abuse did not take place in their own community and therefore concentrated mainly on young white girls". (Jay report on Rotherham p91)
> 
> "The issue [of CSE perpetrators] was predominately Asian men and they were scared that would cause a problem. We would tell them that in the forums and they were uncomfortable. Stats on ethnicity were taken out of presentations. There was resistance to focusing on who the perpetrators were.” (A voluntary sector worker in Rotherham quoted in Casey report, page 32 onwards DCLG 2015)
> ...


Zero bigger than we initially thought then?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 6, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> Zero bigger than we initially thought then?



Similar comments and findings are present in every single report I've read so far - I have got about 40 direct quotes.

Fear of being called racist, political steers from Labour Councils scared of the block vote consequences, statistics changed to eliminate race as a factor, quote after quote from people scared to raise concerns or shut up once they had.

So yes, zero is bigger than initially thought.


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 6, 2017)

Fozzie Bear said:


> AFA winning on the streets and on the bookshelves:
> 
> _"Despite its prominence and large membership in the 1970s and its relaunch in the early 1990s (Bambery 1992), the ANL has not attracted as much literature as the numerically smaller AFA"_
> 
> ...


It was only in ANL Mark 1 that there would be anything to write about in terms of successful physical force anti fascism and when that was reigned in via expulsions and the CC visiting branches to enforce the line it was written out of history . Even the prevent articles on Lewisham have omitted the fact that IS/SWP at the time were determined to physically smash the NF march  and had been looking for a suitable opportunity for some time. I attended planning meetings on the route of the march and where our branch was to be. We stole flares from work to launch them at the march. The old Trotsky line of aquainting their heads with the pavement was repeated and repeated when ever the NF or BM were seen. In Acton we had spotters where we thought they might be and on Saturday mornings assemble at comrades houses to await a phone call as to their location and then drive to have a go at them. All this not condoned by the full timers until, the line changed.

With regards to the whinging about the lack of coverage in events in Manchester with the exception of Hann and Tilzey who were both in RA none of these anarchists and independents in the Northern Network  have put pen paper.


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 6, 2017)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Similar comments and findings are present in every single report I've read so far - I have got about 40 direct quotes.
> 
> Fear of being called racist, political steers from Labour Councils scared of the block vote consequences, statistics changed to eliminate race as a factor, quote after quote from people scared to raise concerns or shut up once they had.
> 
> So yes, zero is bigger than initially thought.


And the disempowerment of Asian women who were concerned about CSE by elders, community leaders never challenged by those in the Labour Party who are 'committed to equality' and the most recent case where someone did was sacked because of poor attendance at Council meetings.


----------



## belboid (Sep 6, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> 1.Your point about how the agencies dealt/didn't deal with  with 'troubled' girls is absolutely correct.
> 2.However  fear of racism and relying on ethic minority staff to advise on cultural issues regardless of their own experience or qualification due to that anxiety have been themes in both the Rochdale and Victoria Climbie inquiries.
> 3.Add to this the local political concerns about upsetting the applecart in some areas , social cohesion or in some cases votes where Labour relies on conservative populist 'community leaders' and the top down management of that anxiety to both Council and Police staff and you get a situation of wilful inactivity and paralysis.
> 4. Nazir Afzal the former Head of CPS  for Manchester who dealt with the Rochdale cases and others in GM is quite clear that their is a specific  problem in some Muslim communities about mysonogy which needs to be urgently addressed.
> ...



1 – well,, that’s thrown me

2 – I agree with the point re relying on BAME staff to deal with BAME clients, it’s utterly idiotic.  But, as you point out by mentioning Climbie, this means it is not simply an issue of Asian/Pakistani/Muslim men. And so focusing upon them (whichever group of ‘them’ you choose) is misleading.

3 – In  Rotherham there was seen to be a problem with overburdening social services. And it is true that the SS there had been stretched to the limit and were failing people all over the town (same in Doncaster, which led to events like Edlington). That seemed to be the main drive not to do anything. It is, however, also true that Labour parties are reliant on various factious ‘community leaders’ who are happy to screw each other over to maintain their position. And, yes, some of them will not want ‘difficult’ issues raised, and will want to ignore them or deal with them within the community, but then others, like Naz Shah, gain their position doing exactly the opposite. Of course, the ones who have successfully challenged those ‘conservatives’ rarely make thenews.

4 – Well, I don’t know quite what Afzal meant by a ‘specific problem in some Muslim communities’, but, as I have said throughout, there are problems with misogyny in all communities, and it will be expressed slightly differently in different communities. Each community will need to be worked with in order to combat and overcome it. But you are not likely to get very far if the headline is THE PROBLEM WITH PAKISTANI MEN RAPING WHITE GIRLS!!!!!! Especially when it is only a tiny minority of Pakistani men doing so (and an even tinier minority of Asian or Muslim men, if those were your preferred descriptions)

5 – Again, I have seen very little evidence of this. Repeating a statement doesn’t make it true.  The one supposed recent example is, a, only one example, and b, quite possibly about other issues entirely (see your 3)

6 – Who the hell wouldn’t do so? Of course there is a sigh of relief when an issue isn’t going to become complicated by a web of other issues, especially one that deliberately whips up hate to obscure the initial one.

In the seventies/early eighties the press was full of tales about how evil West Indians were going around mugging white people.  It was done using cherry picked data, for something where there weren’t explicit figures available so they could cherry pick examples and say there evidence of a systematic problem in that community. We had no problem decrying those campaigns as racist then, but no longer, it seems.

There have been similar cases of abuse in Derby, Sheffield, Penzance, in many, many, parts of the country. But it’s only the ones where men of Pakistani/Asian/Muslim heritage are involved that make the headlines. Even in Rotherham ,where both perpetrators and victims came from many different backgrounds, it was only the Pakistani/Asian/Muslim men that were talked about.

A Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre report about children who were groomed and sexually exploited by an offender they first met in a public place identified 1,217 offenders: 30 per cent were white, while 28 per cent were Asian. Of their 2083 victims, 61 per cent were white, while just 3 per cent were Asian and 33 per cent were referred to as ‘other.’ Not quite the statistics we are generally presented with.


----------



## belboid (Sep 6, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Said the Asian guy to the.....oh bad taste. Let's not.


No, go on, finish your racist joke.  Don't worry, Joe will be along to tell us all its only a bit salty.


----------



## belboid (Sep 6, 2017)

Smokeandsteam said:


> "In the broader organisational context, however, there was a widespread perception that messages conveyed by some senior people in the Council and also the Police, were to 'downplay' the ethnic dimensions of CSE. Unsurprisingly, frontline staff appeared to be confused as to what they were supposed to say and do and what would be interpreted as 'racist'. From a political perspective, the approach of avoiding public discussion of the issues was ill judged.
> There was too much reliance by agencies on traditional community leaders such as elected members and imams as being the primary conduit of communication with the Pakistani-heritage community. The Inquiry spoke to several Pakistani-heritage women who felt disenfranchised by this and thought it was a barrier to people coming forward to talk about CSE. Others believed there was wholesale denial of the problem in the Pakistani-heritage community in the same way that other forms of abuse were ignored. Representatives of women's groups were frustrated that interpretations of the Borough's problems with CSE were often based on an assumption that similar abuse did not take place in their own community and therefore concentrated mainly on young white girls". (Jay report on Rotherham p91)
> 
> "The issue [of CSE perpetrators] was predominately Asian men and they were scared that would cause a problem. We would tell them that in the forums and they were uncomfortable. Stats on ethnicity were taken out of presentations. There was resistance to focusing on who the perpetrators were.” (A voluntary sector worker in Rotherham quoted in Casey report, page 32 onwards DCLG 2015)
> ...




Is that the best you can do? Four quotes, which don’t back you up very well. One talks about ‘perceptions’ rather than actualities. One copper talks of not using the phrase ‘Asian males’ but not about ignoring the issue. And then he (or maybe some other copper) says its a problem he knows the backgrounds of the Asian councillors but not the whites. Which is just odd. Did he have anything to say about how the police had been passed the names of perpetrators years earlier, but had ignored them? No. Did he have anything to say about why there are still so many coppers being investigated for their failures? No.

All in all, if that’s the best you can come up with, well, thanks for backing my case up.


----------



## belboid (Sep 6, 2017)

Newcastle grooming gang members jailed for up to 29 years



> Sentencing the first of 14 gang members on Tuesday, the judge, Penny Moreland, said there was *no direct evidence that the offending was racially motivated. *
> 
> She added: “In my view, and speaking in broad terms, these defendants selected their victims not because of their race but because they were young, impressionable, naive and vulnerable.


----------



## malatesta32 (Sep 6, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> With regards to the whinging about the lack of coverage in events in Manchester with the exception of Hann and Tilzey who were both in RA none of these anarchists and independents in the Northern Network  have put pen paper.



come on, anti-fascist action: an anarchist perspective by Liverpool exAFA;  Hann #2 p340 onwards deals with the northern network; and AFA Grows & AFA In Scotland in M Testa all deal with northern network from activist points of view.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 6, 2017)

belboid said:


> All in all, if that’s the best you can come up with, well, thanks for backing my case up.



You've stated that Sarah Champion is 'hideously racist' without a shred of evidence or one even semi coherent argument to back it up.  

You've stated "There is absolutely zero evidence that either ignored the girls due to fears about racism. None whatsoever" about social services and the cops. A ten minute search of the relevant reports reveals an abundance of evidence to the contrary proving you are - once again - talking out of your hole.

I know in your demented version of anti racist politics  - nothing to see here, move along - the facts cannot be allowed to get in the way, but surely you can do a bit better than this?


----------



## belboid (Sep 6, 2017)

Smokeandsteam said:


> You've stated that Sarah Champion is 'hideously racist' without a shred of evidence or one even semi coherent argument to back it up.


I didnt. Not my fault you can't read.



> You've stated "There is absolutely zero evidence that either ignored the girls due to fears about racism. None whatsoever" about social services and the cops. A ten minute search of the relevant reports reveals an abundance of evidence to the contrary proving you are - once again - talking out of your hole.
> 
> I know in your demented version of anti racist politics  - nothing to see here, move along - the facts cannot be allowed to get in the way, but surely you can do a bit better than this?


See above.  You are as dishonest as Joe, and have as little interest in the victims, I suspect.


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 6, 2017)

malatesta32 said:


> come on, anti-fascist action: an anarchist perspective by Liverpool exAFA;  Hann #2 p340 onwards deals with the northern network; and AFA Grows & AFA In Scotland in M Testa all deal with northern network from activist points of view.


aside from the Liverpool thing which I haven't seen, I mentioned Hann and obviously you wrote your book rather than those involved.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 6, 2017)

[QUOTE="belboid, post: 15192490, member: 2665" Champions comments were grotesquely crass and racist.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE="belboid, post: 15217043, member: 2665"T]he non enforcement of the law was due to professionals - coppers and social services - not listening to or believing the girls involved. There is absolutely zero evidence that either ignored the girls due to fears about racism. None whatsoever. There are dozens of coppers currently under investigation for their failures to act, no mentions of fears re racism being raised in their defense so far.[/QUOTE]


----------



## belboid (Sep 6, 2017)

Smokeandsteam said:


> [QUOTE="belboid, post: 15192490, member: 2665" Champions comments were grotesquely crass and racist.



[QUOTE="belboid, post: 15217043, member: 2665"T]he non enforcement of the law was due to professionals - coppers and social services - not listening to or believing the girls involved. There is absolutely zero evidence that either ignored the girls due to fears about racism. None whatsoever. There are dozens of coppers currently under investigation for their failures to act, no mentions of fears re racism being raised in their defense so far.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
Thank you for proving my point re the first quote.  Not my fault you can't handle having two concepts on one sentence.

As to the other, fine I am happy to amend to there is 'hardly any significant evidence.' You managed to find one quote. Every report - including the one you quote above - shows other factors were far more significant.


----------



## Nice one (Sep 6, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> With regards to the whinging about the lack of coverage in events in Manchester with the exception of Hann and Tilzey who were both in RA none of these anarchists and independents in the Northern Network  have put pen paper.



Before we published btf i put forward a proposal that we do a follow-up companion book covering the same period but from the anarchists perspective. I was going do all the leg work for it, compile it etc 

Of course after some internal differences and the interjection of one particular boisterious leeds anarchist over the book, it was taken out of my hands... no-one else had the capacity to take it to completion.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Sep 6, 2017)

Nice one said:


> Before we published btf i put forward a proposal that we do a follow-up companion book covering the same period but from the anarchists perspective. I was going do all the leg work for it, compile it etc
> 
> Of course after some internal differences and the interjection of one particular boisterious leeds anarchist over the book, it was taken out of my hands... no-one else had the capacity to take it to completion.


The 'boisterous leeds anarchist' was for or against  project?


----------



## Joe Reilly (Sep 6, 2017)

mojo pixy said:


> Sexual abuse is _wrong_. It's wrong for _everyone_. It's not more wrong for Muslims ffs.



It seems to have escaped your attention that the scandal revolves around authority figures coming to precisely the opposite conclusion.


----------



## Nice one (Sep 7, 2017)

Joe Reilly said:


> The 'boisterous leeds anarchist' was for or against  project?



he was one of the more strident voices against freedom publishing btf. Thing is he wasn't even involved in afa back then, he was otherwise indisposed.

I was always determined we should do a comprehensive afa anarchist book, but he decided, after the shit hit the fan over btf, it was his job to do it, i left him to it, it never got done.


----------



## krink (Sep 7, 2017)

If anyone is interested:

This archive of fash/edl/etc pictures is slowly disappearing for unknown reasons. The author has said she doesn't mind if anyone wants to download them all before any more vanish as she is no longer active and won't be adding anything in future. 

northeastfash


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 7, 2017)

krink said:


> If anyone is interested:
> 
> This archive of fash/edl/etc pictures is slowly disappearing for unknown reasons. The author has said she doesn't mind if anyone wants to download them all before any more vanish as she is no longer active and won't be adding anything in future.
> 
> northeastfash



glanced at this one and for a moment i thought it read 'groomers against groomers' 

must get my eyes checked


----------



## krink (Sep 7, 2017)

how did you get the picture embedded Pickman's model ? i couldn't figure it out.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 7, 2017)

krink said:


> how did you get the picture embedded Pickman's model ? i couldn't figure it out.


snipping tool


----------



## Joe Reilly (Sep 7, 2017)

Nice one said:


> he was one of the more strident voices against freedom publishing btf. Thing is he wasn't even involved in afa back then, he was otherwise indisposed.
> 
> I was always determined we should do a comprehensive afa anarchist book, but he decided, after the shit hit the fan over btf, it was his job to do it, i left him to it, it never got done.



OK. Let me get my head around this. Someone who had no involvement in AFA from 1985 onward nonetheless argued that Freedom Press should not be involved in publishing a book on the history of militant anti-fascism because it would be biased against anarchism, but when a plan to write a militant history with a bias _toward _anarchism was put on the table he took on the responsibility for it and the project sank with him. 

What do we conclude from this? 

When he did the necessary research, the material for a convincing rebuttal to BTF simply wasn't there - or - his real objection was to having a record of physical force anti-fascism at all, regardless of who wrote it?


----------



## killer b (Sep 7, 2017)

It probably just means he never got round to it tbf.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Sep 7, 2017)

killer b said:


> It probably just means he never got round to it tbf.



Illuminating.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 8, 2017)

He could have said, "actually I can't be arsed" to all the people eager for the book to appear. And then they could have taken the mantle. 
Or they could have deduced that and attempted it without him anyway.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 8, 2017)

This recent discussion made me take a look at historical threads and it's often the same people getting their digs in.


----------



## killer b (Sep 8, 2017)

Joe Reilly said:


> Illuminating.


I've never undertaken to write a substantial work of non fiction, but i know people who have and it's essentially a full time job, maybe for a couple of years. When casting round for possible reasons the northern anarchist may not have produced his tome, I suspect the sheer volume of work involved is much more likely to be the reason it's never emerged than anything else.


----------



## Red Sky (Sep 8, 2017)

Joe Reilly said:


> Illuminating.



You think they're involved?


----------



## malatesta32 (Sep 8, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> aside from the Liverpool thing which I haven't seen, I mentioned Hann and obviously you wrote your book rather than those involved.



the Northern AFA parts were written by activists from Leeds, Nottingham, Brum etc. the liverpool thing is worth a read and i think its on libcom (goes to check ... ) yep, here. and i'm sure i had another 1 somewhere: 1985-2001: A short history of Anti-Fascist Action (AFA)


----------



## malatesta32 (Sep 8, 2017)

Nice one said:


> Before we published btf i put forward a proposal that we do a follow-up companion book covering the same period but from the anarchists perspective. I was going do all the leg work for it, compile it etc
> 
> Of course after some internal differences and the interjection of one particular boisterious leeds anarchist over the book, it was taken out of my hands... no-one else had the capacity to take it to completion.



i would be very keen on taking this on with others as i'm between books at the moment.


----------



## malatesta32 (Sep 8, 2017)

killer b said:


> I've never undertaken to write a substantial work of non fiction, but i know people who have and it's essentially a full time job, maybe for a couple of years. When casting round for possible reasons the northern anarchist may not have produced his tome, I suspect the sheer volume of work involved is much more likely to be the reason it's never emerged than anything else.


see above message!


----------



## malatesta32 (Sep 8, 2017)

.


----------



## malatesta32 (Sep 8, 2017)

Joe Reilly said:


> When he did the necessary research, the material for a convincing rebuttal to BTF simply wasn't there - or - his real objection was to having a record of physical force anti-fascism at all, regardless of who wrote it?



thinking in terms of a complimentary volume from an anarcho/northern point of view is probably the most productive way to go about this. there is some material there. i was only contacted by 8 or so people and only had so much room to include it. as with BTF, if given the chance anti-fascists are keen to have a say about the experiences of men and women, younger and older militants, and from different places (ie, NE and NW) and at different conferences, demos etc., which can be politically and socially contextualised.


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 8, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> This recent discussion made me take a look at historical threads and it's often the same people getting their digs in.


yup , some not involved with AFA or AFA post its restructure, people from Leeds, Searchies ,people looking for an axe to grind, some worried about skeletons in closets and some just plain jealous that BTF was such a fine book with a political analysis that goes deeper than just bash the fash.


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 8, 2017)

malatesta32 said:


> thinking in terms of a complimentary volume from an anarcho/northern point of view is probably the most productive way to go about this. there is some material there. i was only contacted by 8 or so people and only had so much room to include it. as with BTF, if given the chance anti-fascists are keen to have a say about the experiences of men and women, younger and older militants, and from different places (ie, NE and NW) and at different conferences, demos etc., which can be politically and socially contextualised.


Good marketing strategy except in reality it wont be complimentary . The niche market at the moment is the American 'antifa' scene


----------



## crossthebreeze (Sep 8, 2017)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Similar comments and findings are present in every single report I've read so far - I have got about 40 direct quotes.
> 
> Fear of being called racist, political steers from Labour Councils scared of the block vote consequences, statistics changed to eliminate race as a factor, quote after quote from people scared to raise concerns or shut up once they had.
> 
> So yes, zero is bigger than initially thought.


I suspect its less concerns about actually being racist, but a) worries about community cohesion (partly fuelled by a wilful misunderstanding of what real community unity would look like, and a contempt for working class people of all ethnicities that involves managing them as problems, and avoiding having to provide any extra resources to deprived communities) and b) fear of upsetting the applecart by being perceived by or accused by powerful (in the local context) and useful (in terms of both community control and getting the vote out) "community leaders" as being racist.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Sep 8, 2017)

crossthebreeze said:


> I suspect its less concerns about actually being racist, but a) worries about community cohesion (partly fuelled by a wilful misunderstanding of what real community unity would look like, and a contempt for working class people of all ethnicities that involves managing them as problems, and avoiding having to provide any extra resources to deprived communities) and b) fear of upsetting the applecart by being perceived by or accused by powerful (in the local context) and useful (in terms of both community control and getting the vote out) "community leaders" as being racist.



Liberal orthodoxy pumps race religion and ethnicity into every possible social scenario as a rule of thumb. However the instant race or religion have unavoidably negative implications, the exact opposite happens.

Then the specifics are massaged to have a general application, with any race/religious element downplayed.

While child victims are made to undergo a sort growth spurt to become "women", the perpetrators are just as likely to be introduced as "Asian", and the otherwise previously neutral "night time economy" is offered up in mitigation.

In the echo chamber the devotion to this kind of sleight of hand is no doubt applauded but it is very unlikely to convince anyone outside of it. Quite the opposite.

The long term damage to anti-racism as a concept is already incalculable.


----------



## belboid (Sep 8, 2017)

Joe Reilly said:


> Liberal orthodoxy pumps race religion and ethnicity into every possible social scenario as a rule of thumb. However the instant race or religion have unavoidably negative implications, the exact opposite happens.
> 
> Then the specifics are massaged to have a general application, with any race/religious element downplayed.
> 
> ...


No one has tried to pretend the children are 'women,' you have been happy to use the term 'asian' and noting the role of the night time economy is not offered as any kind of 'mitigation.' Stop making things up.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 8, 2017)

Joe Reilly said:


> Liberal orthodoxy pumps race religion and ethnicity into every possible social scenario as a rule of thumb. However the instant race or religion have unavoidably negative implications, the exact opposite happens.
> 
> Then the specifics are massaged to have a general application, with any race/religious element downplayed.



At best its cultural relativism. A less generous reading would suggest covert racism - judging pakistani's as morally inferior beings who should not be held to western liberal standards.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 13, 2017)

Posted on the EDL thread but perhaps more apt here- 

25th Anniversary of Waterloo yesterday.
Not that you'd know if your interest in antifascism led you to the AFN who decided to celebrate the occasion by being tight lipped about this piece of antifascist history yesterday.
SWP-style sectarianism?


----------



## mojo pixy (Sep 14, 2017)

Joe Reilly said:


> It seems to have escaped your attention that the scandal revolves around authority figures coming to precisely the opposite conclusion.



Is that so? I thought the scandal was kids being abused. I suppose there are some who want the scandal to be the ethnicity of the abusers.


----------



## Red Sky (Sep 14, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Posted on the EDL thread but perhaps more apt here-
> 
> 25th Anniversary of Waterloo yesterday.
> Not that you'd know if your interest in antifascism led you to the AFN who decided to celebrate the occasion by being tight lipped about this piece of antifascist history yesterday.
> SWP-style sectarianism?



A pretty lame attempt to start a bun fight even by the standards on here. (And you posted it on two threads).


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 14, 2017)

Red Sky said:


> A pretty lame attempt to start a bun fight even by the standards on here. (And you posted it on two threads).



There's nothing really to have a bun fight about. It just struck me as odd.


----------



## Red Sky (Sep 14, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> There's nothing really to have a bun fight about. It just struck me as odd.



An oversight makes the AFN guilty of "SWP style sectarianism". Bit of a logical leap there fella. 

Did the AFN hold a firework display for the anniversary of Lewisham or something?


----------



## bemused (Sep 14, 2017)

mojo pixy said:


> Is that so? I thought the scandal was kids being abused. I suppose there are some who want the scandal to be the ethnicity of the abusers.



Why can't it be both?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 14, 2017)

Red Sky said:


> An oversight makes the AFN guilty of "SWP style sectarianism". Bit of a logical leap there fella.
> 
> Did the AFN hold a firework display for the anniversary of Lewisham or something?



Was the big Cable St shindig last year?


----------



## Red Sky (Sep 14, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Was the big Cable St shindig last year?



There was. AFN  didn't organise that although it did turn into a bit of a gathering.  Corbyn spoke iirc.


----------



## mojo pixy (Sep 14, 2017)

bemused said:


> Why can't it be both?



If I understood how the ethnicity of these perpetrators can be _scandalous_, I might be able to answer. As it stands though, I don't understand that aspect of this story.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 14, 2017)

mojo pixy said:


> If I understood how the ethnicity of these perpetrators can be _scandalous_, I might be able to answer. As it stands though, I don't understand that aspect of this story.



Do you think that if gangs of exclusively white men were preying on mostly brown children that the race of the perpetrators and victims would be ignored?


----------



## belboid (Sep 14, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Do you think that if gangs of exclusively white men were preying on mostly brown children that the race of the perpetrators and victims would be ignored?


Except you know full well it wasn't gangs of exclusively 'brown' men. But why bother with facts?

you gonna finish off your racist joke for us now?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 14, 2017)

belboid said:


> Except you know full well it wasn't gangs of exclusively 'brown' men. But why bother with facts?
> 
> you gonna finish off your racist joke for us now?



Is this where we point to the token white woman in the Newcastle case?


----------



## mojo pixy (Sep 14, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Do you think that if gangs of exclusively white men were preying on mostly brown children that the race of the perpetrators and victims would be ignored?



As a matter of fact, I do. Thousands of British visitors to Pattaya each year aren't going there for the Pad Thai.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 14, 2017)

mojo pixy said:


> As a matter of fact, I do. Thousands of British visitors to Pattaya each year aren't going there for the Pad Thai.



But you haven't ignored their ethnicity have you? Otherwise you wouldn't have made that point.


----------



## belboid (Sep 14, 2017)

No, you dishonest little man. It's the fact that a quarter of the perpetrators in Rotherham were white, and plenty of the perps in other areas have been too, sometimes all white. But you cherry pick away, use one case to make sweeping, racist, claims.


----------



## mojo pixy (Sep 14, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> But you haven't ignored their ethnicity have you? Otherwise you wouldn't have made that point.



I was replying to your point, and underlining that we don't usually make the ethnicity of sex abusers into an issue, compared to the ethnicity of the abused.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 14, 2017)

belboid said:


> No, you dishonest little man. It's the fact that a quarter of the perpetrators in Rotherham were white, and plenty of the perps in other areas have been too, sometimes all white. But you cherry pick away, use one case to make sweeping, racist, claims.



So out of the 24 men convicted in the Rotherham case six of them must have been white. Care to name them?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 14, 2017)

mojo pixy said:


> I was replying to your point, and underlining that we don't usually make the ethnicity of sex abusers into an issue.



Sex tourism is sex abuse now? It will be in some cases but all?


----------



## mojo pixy (Sep 14, 2017)

Sex tourism is a kind of sexual abuse when it exploits "sex workers" who have no real choice over the kind of "work" they do. And when the "workers" are poor foreigners (either in the UK or elsewhere) then I'd say it fits this "racist sex abuse" narrative some seem so keen on.

Or we could just go with double standards, I don't mind.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 14, 2017)

mojo pixy said:


> Sex tourism is a kind of sexual abuse when it exploits "sex workers" who have no real choice over the kind of "work" they do.



You can make that argument for sure. But you'd also need to show that these men exclusively use Thai sex workers to even get close to parity with these cases. And even then, it isn't organised abuse unless you can show that also.


----------



## mojo pixy (Sep 14, 2017)

You seem now to be conflating two issues. 
1. The ethnicity of the abusers
2. The "organised" nature of the abuse.


----------



## belboid (Sep 14, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> So out of the 24 men convicted in the Rotherham case six of them must have been white. Care to name them?


there wasn't just one case in Rotherham.  I thought you were meant to have studied all the documents? You're just a gobshite.


----------



## belboid (Sep 14, 2017)

mojo pixy said:


> You seem now to be conflating two issues.
> 1. The ethnicity of the abusers
> 2. The "organised" nature of the abuse.


he doesn't give a fuck, its just an excuse for the little twerp to try and play hard man


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 14, 2017)

mojo pixy said:


> You seem now to be conflating two issues.
> 1. The ethnicity of the abusers
> 2. The "organised" nature of the abuse.



This isn't what's under discussion?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 14, 2017)

belboid said:


> there wasn't just one case in Rotherham.  I thought you were meant to have studied all the documents? You're just a gobshite.



So that's a "no" then.


----------



## bemused (Sep 14, 2017)

mojo pixy said:


> If I understood how the ethnicity of these perpetrators can be _scandalous_, I might be able to answer. As it stands though, I don't understand that aspect of this story.



I don't think the ethnicity of the abusers was a scandal, I do think the reaction of the parts of the criminal justice system the victims because of the ethnicity of the abusers was scandalous. 

To not acknowledge that the racial component of the abusers and the class for the accusers was a toxic combination within those organisations tasked with protecting the victims just opens the door wider for odious toads like Tommy Robinson to spin this yarn that working class white girls are prey for Muslim men.


----------



## chilango (Sep 14, 2017)

Anybody (on either side) care to suggest what the role of "militant anti-fascists" should be in preventing organised child sexual exploitation then?


----------



## mojo pixy (Sep 14, 2017)

Yeah, I'm withdrawing my cooperation with this off topic mess.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 14, 2017)

bemused said:


> I don't think the ethnicity of the abusers was a scandal, I do think the reaction of the parts of the criminal justice system the victims because of the ethnicity of the abusers was scandalous.
> 
> To not acknowledge that the racial component of the abusers and the class for the accusers was a toxic combination within those organisations tasked with protecting the victims just opens the door wider for odious toads like Tommy Robinson to spin this yarn that working class white girls are prey for Muslim men.



It's even easier for him to spin if the left's response amounts to making comparisons with sex tourism or stating the background of the perps isn't relevant. He becomes the voice of reason.


----------



## Red Sky (Sep 14, 2017)

chilango said:


> Anybody (on either side) care to suggest what the role of "militant anti-fascists" should be in preventing organised child sexual exploitation then?



I don't know if "anti fascism" unless very broadly defined has any role to play here. 
Unless it was to defend any left wing or feminist iniatives that happened in response. 
They unfortunately were very thin on the ground.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 14, 2017)

Red Sky said:


> I don't know if "anti fascism" unless very broadly defined has any role to play here.
> Unless it was to defend any left wing or feminist iniatives that happened in response.
> They unfortunately were very thin on the ground.



It feeds into the wider argument regarding opposing anti-working class elements in our communities shouldn't just be done on the sole basis of white skin pigmentation under the threat of being labelled racist for shining a light where it exists elsewhere.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Sep 14, 2017)

mojo pixy said:


> Is that so? I thought the scandal was kids being abused. I suppose there are some who want the scandal to be the ethnicity of the abusers.



 As is often the case it was actually the cover-up by the authorities locally in refusing to come to terms with the reality of the perpetrators appearing to be exclusively or overwhelmingly Muslim that caused the uproar.  And is all to evident, even after multiple convictions (the Newcastle network alone is estimated to have involved over 40 individuals), the instinct of liberal left (27 council representatives) refused to take part in Rotherham review) is still sweep it back under the carpet.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Sep 14, 2017)

chilango said:


> Anybody (on either side) care to suggest what the role of "militant anti-fascists" should be in preventing organised child sexual exploitation then?



Unless you think the sole role of anti-fascism is simply to clean up the mess caused by identity politics then addressing those failings on a thread like this is very much 'on topic'.


----------



## chilango (Sep 14, 2017)

Joe Reilly said:


> Unless you think the sole role of anti-fascism is simply to clean up the mess caused by identity politics then addressing those failings on a thread like this is very much 'on topic'.



My own view is that this could be where IWCA style initiatives come in. In my own experience, one area (albeit only one amongst a range) that is being exploited by organised exploiters is the vulnerability of young people (IME in areas of social deprivation) who may be isolated from family or community support networks and for whom the lack of social opportunities in the community leaves no obvious route into support networks. These young people are then open to exploitation by those stepping into this vacuum with malicious intent.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 14, 2017)

chilango said:


> My own view is that this could be where IWCA style initiatives come in.



Maybe a job for the million members that labour brags about having recruited who are going to take Jeremy's message of hope into every street in the land? 

Community activism, working with the most marginalised, taking on the grooming gangs and other criminal elements around them, the police, the council and the self appointed community leaders.

Sounds an ideal role for momentum.


----------



## chilango (Sep 14, 2017)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Maybe a job for the million members that labour brags about having recruited who are going to take Jeremy's message of hope into every street in the land?
> 
> Community activism, working with the most marginalised, taking on the grooming gangs and other criminal elements around them, the police, the council and the self appointed community leaders.
> 
> Sounds an ideal role for momentum.



The pertinent question (on this thread) is what could "militant anti-fascists" in the AFA tradition do?


----------



## Joe Reilly (Sep 14, 2017)

chilango said:


> The pertinent question (on this thread) is what could "militant anti-fascists" in the AFA tradition do?



What militant anti-fascism can do, is a) refuse to endorse those including the Labour leadership that says that there is not 'a specific problem here, move on'.
And two, refuse to support whistle blowers, including from within the Muslim community, being stigmatized as Islamophobic/EDL or worse, and intimidated into silence.

On this thread, and wider afield a false choice: 'anti-grooming or anti-racist' is still being promoted.  
As there can only be one long term political beneficiary from such a clearly wrong headed approach, it ought to be the duty of anti-fascists on this thread and further afield to take a stand against them.


----------



## chilango (Sep 14, 2017)

Joe Reilly said:


> What militant anti-fascism can do, is a) refuse to endorse those including the Labour leadership that says that there is not 'a specific problem here, move on'.
> And two, refuse to support whistle blowers, including from within the Muslim community, being stigmatized as Islamophobic/EDL or worse, and intimidated into silence.
> 
> On this thread, and wider afield a false choice: 'anti-grooming or anti-racist' is still being promoted.
> As there can only be one long term political beneficiary from such a clearly wrong headed approach, it ought to be the duty of anti-fascists on this thread and further afield to take a stand against them.



I already suggested a few posts back what I thought the area of intervention should be.

For example, I know of a w/c community where CSE has been an issue with young girls and women from this community being disproportionately targeted for exploitation by organised abusers. Ethnicity (of the perps or the victims) is simply irrelevant. It's not a factor. At all. What is a factor is the breakdown or absence of networks of support and their replacement by networks of abuse.

This 





> false choice: 'anti-grooming or anti-racist' is still being promoted


 just isn't happening there. It's a red herring (on both sides) IME/O.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Sep 25, 2017)

belboid said:


> And, as for the death of social democracy...well, in case you hadn't noticed, it's had a surprising rebirth over the last couple of years. More votes in this country since 1997, the highest vote for a socialist ever in the US, an insurgent French left campaign.  None of them quite won, or are really radical enough, but to say it is on the ropes everywhere is just plain wrong.



Yesterday, the worst vote for the Social Democrats in Germany since...1933.  

As for the reference to the 'insurgent French left campaign' this is a just an attempt to evade the reality how disastrously the Socialist Party actually fared. 

In any event, Austria up next...


----------



## belboid (Sep 25, 2017)

Joe Reilly said:


> Yesterday, the worst vote for the Social Democrats in Germany since...1933.
> 
> As for the reference to the 'insurgent French left campaign' this is a just an attempt to evade the reality how disastrously the Socialist Party actually fared.
> 
> In any event, Austria up next...


I thought the cherry season was finished, but here's Dishonest Joe, still picking away. 


Not surprising it too a while for you to reply, as you had no answers earlier. I can't quite decide now if you're misunderstanding my argument deliberately or just because you're stupid. It's not a very difficult argument - the social democratic parties that continue to support a neo-liberal economic policy are still fucked. Many of them have been replaced by different social democratic parties - like in France. In a couple of cases the soc-dem party has managed to reinvigorate itself, like in Britain. Let's remember you said it was IMPOSSIBLE for Labour to increase its vote.  You were clearly wrong about that, but are too childish to admit it. 


I understand you are still annoyed at the failure of the IWCA, and your inability to account for it. It must be frustrating just having silly teenagers and retirees backing you up these days. But that's still no excuse to lie as blatantly as you have repeatedly on this thread. 


Maybe you should try posting an opinion on another thread sometime, one where it might actually be relevant to the actual topic. I realise you wouldn't then be able to rely on your dwindling cohort of admirers to partake in a circle jerk with you, but, you never know, you might learn something.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Sep 25, 2017)

belboid said:


> I thought the cherry season was finished, but here's Dishonest Joe, still picking away.
> 
> 
> Not surprising it too a while for you to reply, as you had no answers earlier. I can't quite decide now if you're misunderstanding my argument deliberately or just because you're stupid. It's not a very difficult argument - the social democratic parties that continue to support a neo-liberal economic policy are still fucked. Many of them have been replaced by different social democratic parties - like in France. In a couple of cases the soc-dem party has managed to reinvigorate itself, like in Britain. Let's remember you said it was IMPOSSIBLE for Labour to increase its vote.  You were clearly wrong about that, but are too childish to admit it.
> ...



Smear, lie deny. Your formula for debate. And just not you, because in all probability you  have never had an original idea in your life. So in debating with you it is sort of a debate by proxy with the tendencies with which you identify.

So it's comes as no surprise you think you actually think you won the previous argument. In the same way you have no explanation for the rise of the Afd.

No analysis. Just more bluster.

In the same way the 'new authentic democratic Labour Party'  refuses to allow a discussion on Brexit at conference. In other words just as top down as the old one.

But when challenged a spokesperson for Momentum flatly deny's that this is the case.

And although Labour lost the election by 60 seats, for you and them, that naturally is victory. So when a female BBC journalist challenges this narrative, such is the violence of the response she has to hire a body guard in order to go to the conference. So much for women's rights.

 I could go on but it's unnecessary.

As near everyone else can see, all the lies and evasions, on this thread and elsewhere are all yours.

Finally, as AFA long predicted the far-right would inevitably emerge as a consequence of the many failures of the left.

Your response, just as with the controversy over the sacking Sarah Champion is to try and close down any discussion.

In the name of anti-fascism and democracy of course.

However as the march of the far-right continues to illustrate so vividly, the only people really being fooled by all the smears, lies and denials are in the long run, the perpetrators themselves.

In your own small way you personify this on here.


----------



## belboid (Sep 25, 2017)

Why did the IWCA fail Joe?

Why did you make up lies about people (presumably me) claiming the abused girls in Rotherham etc were 'women'? And the rest. 

You have no room to tell anyone off for 'bluster'. That is all you have, egocentric, big man, bullshit. 

That's why you hide away on this thread. You have failed and are too cowardly to look outwards or let anyone else challenge you.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 25, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> Here's Belboid recently.



It's his whole MO I think, regardless of topic.


----------



## LiamO (Sep 25, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> It's his whole MO I think, regardless of topic.



Are you one of the pensioners or a teenager Magnus McGinty ?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 25, 2017)

LiamO said:


> Are you one of the pensioners or a teenager Magnus McGinty ?



I would actually love to be a man of leisure but unfortunately I'm too old for 6th form and I've got another 25 years left at the grind stone.


----------



## LiamO (Sep 25, 2017)

a gang of one then? Maybe you should ask bellend to include your category in his circle-jerk fantasy. Politics of inclusion and all that.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 25, 2017)

LiamO said:


> a gang of one then? Maybe you should ask bellend to include your category in his circle-jerk fantasy. Politics of inclusion and all that.



No there's others taking an interest, none of whom I'd describe as teenagers or pensioners. Younger than me though. Which is heartening given what is needed is a working class focus and not this Trot shit.


----------



## LiamO (Sep 25, 2017)

Don't you start with your pesky facts. Bellend is the maaaaan.


----------



## belboid (Sep 25, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I would actually love to be a man of leisure but unfortunately I'm too old for 6th form and I've got another 25 years left at the grind stone.


Really? Fucking hell, from your posts I assumed you were about 20.


----------



## belboid (Sep 25, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> No there's others taking an interest, none of whom I'd describe as teenagers or pensioners. Younger than me though. Which is heartening given what is needed is a working class focus and not this Trot shit.


Your notion of 'working class' being entirely based on identity politics tho, ironically enough. 

Why do you think the IWCA failed?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 25, 2017)

belboid said:


> Really? Fucking hell, from your posts I assumed you were about 20.



Thanks for the compliment. 



belboid said:


> Your notion of 'working class' being entirely based on identity politics tho, ironically enough.
> 
> Why do you think the IWCA failed?



It hasn't.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 25, 2017)

belboid said:


> Your notion of 'working class' being entirely based on identity politics tho, ironically enough.



No it's based on being working class. I don't need to imagine what the people I grew up with are like. Or, indeed, the people I work with.


----------



## belboid (Sep 26, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> It hasn't.


lol


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 26, 2017)

belboid said:


> lol



Perhaps you'd like to lay down your definition of 'success' and what time scale it should happen in?


----------



## belboid (Sep 26, 2017)

Well, it involves a bit more than becoming one small running club in Oxford. 

What is it? Five years on and still no explanation for why they gave up.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 26, 2017)

belboid said:


> Well, it involves a bit more than becoming one small running club in Oxford.
> 
> What is it? Five years on and still no explanation for why they gave up.



Have you got two running clubs in Sheffield?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 26, 2017)

Success must mean joining a party who are in dispute with refuse workers.

Now that's how I'd define 'giving up'.


----------



## belboid (Sep 26, 2017)

It those kinda replies that made me think you were about twenty.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 26, 2017)

belboid said:


> It those kinda replies that made me think you were about twenty.



Full of youthful vigour? 
Or are you about to indulge in some ageist shit about intellect?


----------



## steeplejack (Sep 26, 2017)

I re-read _Beating the Fascists_ recently and there are some unintentional Ealing Comedy classics in there. Very serious stuff at the time but it is hard not to laugh at some of it now

_"Hit full in the face with a plate of spaghetti, and gassed, he made good his escape through the window...a friend was stabbed in the buttocks with a fork trying to escape through the seving hatch"

"...a right hook planted him in the geraniums" _(NF chairman Ian Anderson).

a really great achievement, this book, and I hope it is still selling well.


----------



## killer b (Sep 26, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> Another view on Amina Lonel and if the suggestion that she fell foul of the conservative community leaders that prop up the Labour votes are true then it's a disgrace
> Amina Lone and the shame of the Labour Party in the UK – SEDAA – Our Voices


Amina lone crops up again in this MEN piece today - sounds like she's actually doing some worthwhile, pro-working class stuff. No wonder they want her off the council...

"Working class teens are portrayed like Little Britain characters" Moss Side girl tells Labour conference


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 27, 2017)

killer b said:


> Amina lone crops up again in this MEN piece today - sounds like she's actually doing some worthwhile, pro-working class stuff. No wonder they want her off the council...
> 
> "Working class teens are portrayed like Little Britain characters" Moss Side girl tells Labour conference


Yes she's quite good on a number of issues. Her attendance wasn't good though which was how they ditched her.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Oct 1, 2017)

killer b said:


> Amina lone crops up again in this MEN piece today - sounds like she's actually doing some worthwhile, pro-working class stuff. No wonder they want her off the council...
> 
> "Working class teens are portrayed like Little Britain characters" Moss Side girl tells Labour conference



Nazir Afzal who kick started the prosecutions in the Muslim grooming scandal and who was due to be the key note speaker at annual bash for the Society of Asian Lawyers has been told he is no longer welcome. Apparently it was an article in the Daily Mail where he wrote of the need for 'the community to take greater responsibility' that led to him being 'no-platformed'.

Following Labour's sacking of Sarah Champion and Amina Lone, he is too has now become_ persona non grata_. What is beginning to look like a cull, will no doubt  have apologists arguing it is all just a coincidence. Of course these are the same liberal apologists who argued long and hard, prior to Mr Afzal  grasping the nettle, that there never was a problem to begin with. So as far as they will be concerned he has got his comeuppance. The wrong type of Muslim. Of course the SAL could never have pulled it off without the Left giving the lead. Again high fives all round.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 1, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Perhaps you'd like to lay down your definition of 'success' and what time scale it should happen in?


It's all measurable in the papersales and weekly meetings, comrade, and defined by the line the cc hand out


----------



## planetgeli (Oct 1, 2017)

Joe Reilly said:


> And although Labour lost the election by 60 seats, for you and them, that naturally is victory. *So when a female BBC journalist challenges this narrative, such is the violence of the response she has to hire a body guard in order to go to the conference. So much for women's rights.*
> 
> I could go on but it's unnecessary.



Fuck me I've seen some desperate arguments on this board but that deserves an award of its own.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Oct 1, 2017)

planetgeli said:


> Fuck me I've seen some desperate arguments on this board but that deserves an award of its own.



Your first visit to this thread then I take it?


----------



## planetgeli (Oct 1, 2017)

Whether it is or not is neither here nor there. The point is someone who argues class-based politics (or have I got that wrong?) using a woman who has operated at the establishment's bidding as some form of political point scoring.

I thought you were better than that. But sure, carry on, don't mind me.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Oct 1, 2017)

planetgeli said:


> The point is someone who argues class-based politics (or have I got that wrong?) using a woman who has operated at the establishment's bidding as some form of political point scoring.


This might not bother you at all but that exact rationale: ' a woman doing the establishment's bidding' was also employed on Stormfront following the murder of Jo Cox.


----------



## planetgeli (Oct 2, 2017)

Joe Reilly said:


> This might not bother you at all but that exact rationale: ' a woman doing the establishment's bidding' was also employed on Stormfront following the murder of Jo Cox.



I bet you're fantastic at limbo dancing.

Keep lowering the bar.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 2, 2017)

chilango said:


> Until recently my work involved a lot of child protection stuff and I was involved in a number of serious CSE cases and so on.
> 
> Whilst I'm not going to say anymore about them here, I will say one thing.
> 
> The discussions we had around strategy were very, very different to the one being had on here.


Just discuss the strategy then .


----------



## Joe Reilly (Oct 2, 2017)

planetgeli said:


> I bet you're fantastic at limbo dancing.
> 
> Keep lowering the bar.



Your second ever post. Two lines. Two cliches. Your not fully engaged are you? It's sort of like exchanging messages with a donkey while he's watching a card trick.


----------



## cantsin (Oct 2, 2017)

Joe Reilly said:


> And although Labour lost the election by 60 seats, for you and them, that naturally is victory. So when a female BBC journalist challenges this narrative, such is the violence of the response she has to hire a body guard in order to go to the conference. So much for women's rights.
> 
> .



not easy seeing you posting up utter bollocks like that JoR, cribbed straight out of the smug /desperate centrist dad playbook, and with v little grounding in reality.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 3, 2017)

i see one m testa has an article in the new anarchist studies https://www.lwbooks.co.uk/sites/default/files/anarchiststudies25.2_01testa.pdf


----------



## Red Sky (Oct 3, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> i see one m testa has an article in the new anarchist studies https://www.lwbooks.co.uk/sites/default/files/anarchiststudies25.2_01testa.pdf



A refreshing change from his usual style. I think he's wrong in characterizing the AFN  at it's formation as exclusively anarchist though.

I wonder if he's got a spare copy of "A Year on the Streets" ?


----------



## Joe Reilly (Oct 4, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> i see one m testa has an article in the new anarchist studies https://www.lwbooks.co.uk/sites/default/files/anarchiststudies25.2_01testa.pdf



I just did a quick scan. I saw no reference to AFA in the Midlands who made a vital contribution to squeezing the BNP/NF networks there. Written out of history. Also there is no reference to the underhand influence of Searchlight within the Northern Network from its conception, and the unwitting cover provided for them by some anarchists on the ground before and after their expulsion in 1997.  Neither were Dam involved in AFA from 1985 onwards to its conclusion as is implied. They actually left along with CW in '85 and didn't return until 1989. 

As for the CW they remained outside AFA structures for the entire campaign and I cannot think of a single incident where the group's contribution might be considered noteworthy. That said AFA was a collective effort, so it is likely there will have been individual CW members who did their bit and weighed in. 

Which is why this latest attempt to quantify or divide it up into areas of group influence geographically ('RA was strong' in London. Manchester and Glasgow for example) is deliberately misleading, and frankly when not out and out revisionist, comes across as ideologically needy.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Oct 4, 2017)

cantsin said:


> not easy seeing you posting up utter bollocks like that JoR, cribbed straight out of the smug /desperate centrist dad playbook, and with v little grounding in reality.



The hallmark of any self-righteous dyed in the wool liberal is the assumption that each and every challenge to his or her position must be coming from the right. So you can keep your hand-wringing to yourself. As it is highly unlikely we were ever actually on the same side to begin with.


----------



## cantsin (Oct 4, 2017)

Joe Reilly said:


> The hallmark of any self-righteous dyed in the wool liberal is the assumption that each and every challenge to his or her position must be coming from the right. So you can keep your hand-wringing to yourself. As it is highly unlikely we were ever actually on the same side to begin with.



you are literally rehashing the empty accusations re:" Momentum cancelling the Brexit debate / Laura K bodyguard /  " Labour celebrating victory when they've lost " etc  that we've all heard a 1000 times from bitter liberals / centrists ( Brexit ffs ! ) , but somehow your version is separate, grounded in some other reality ? Wtf ?

As for your last bit - have disagreed with you over all sorts on here over the years, and agreed with ( and had my eyes opened ocassionally by)  you on some important ( to me ) other stuff - genuine shame to see you turn like that.


----------



## krink (Oct 4, 2017)

81 years for Cable Street. Almost didn't realise the date.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Oct 4, 2017)

cantsin said:


> you are literally rehashing the empty accusations re:" Momentum cancelling the Brexit debate / Laura K bodyguard /  " Labour celebrating victory when they've lost " etc  that we've all heard a 1000 times from bitter liberals / centrists ( Brexit ffs ! ) , but somehow your version is separate, grounded in some other reality ? Wtf ?
> 
> As for your last bit - have disagreed with you over all sorts on here over the years, and agreed with ( and had my eyes opened ocassionally by)  you on some important ( to me ) other stuff - genuine shame to see you turn like that.



The original larger post was on 27 September at the time of the Labour conference. During it a Labour MP said 'we didn't win the election but we didn't lose it either'. While the Unite leader said quite simply 'We won'. So mine was contemporary commentary, not a re-hashing of anything. You think Labour is the real deal. I don't. Labour is fast becoming a metropolitan liberal party. The eulogy at Glastonbury surely proved that.

Among others, a hubristic French left also thought they could 'elect a new proletariat' and the old working class could be kicked to the kerb. Well, we all know how well that worked out for them. And with or without a change in orientation, social democracy is simply being trampled near everywhere else. And although there are undoubtedly differences, Labour is on a similar trajectory. Too many false promises, too many evasions, too many contradictions, too many hypocrisies. Even poor Theresa May can manage to say 'working class' with more conviction than Corbyn, who prefers the term 'working people'.

Trust me on this, under the bright lights, this bolting together of old school stalinists and floppy liberals will not to be a good electoral look.


----------



## RD2003 (Oct 4, 2017)

It's a dificult one. When the Corbyn project inevitably comes unstuck, it will be widely seen as another nail in the coffin of 'socialism', which will obviously be a setback for anybody who's opposed to the still unfolding failure of the trajectory we've been on for the last 40 years or so. In the same way that the long-coming relegation of the far-left sects to the status of historical curiosity already has. Hence the enthusiastic clutching, on the part of most of the past and present adherents of those sects, at this latest straw-which is basicallly the ill-fated Socialist Alliance and even worse successors, with added widespread support from the well-intentioned but even less politically astute who just want 'something better,'  and with mainstream political resources behind it.

'Project Jeremy' couldn't be more obviously 'socialism without the working class,' as the voting pattern of the last General Election results told us...

To those of us who are, in present reality or in personal background, of the 'left behinds', the refusal to engage with 'Project Jeremy' is palpable, and couldn't be more  dependent on enough of the working class 'left behinds' having nowhere else to go. And the trouble is, as we are seeing-they have...


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 5, 2017)

Heres what the  wclass think about whether the have a say or not


----------



## belboid (Oct 5, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> 'Project Jeremy' couldn't be more obviously 'socialism without the working class,' as the voting pattern of the last General Election results told us...


that would be the election where Labour won a majority of the votes of workers? Full-time, part-time, every working group bar retirees. Doesn't really sound like 'without the working class' to me - unless you too want to redefine the working-class into purely old fashioned sociological terms.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 5, 2017)

Joe Reilly said:


> Among others, a hubristic French left also thought they could 'elect a new proletariat' and the old working class could be kicked to the kerb. Well, we all know how well that worked out for them. And with or without a change in orientation, social democracy is simply being trampled near everywhere else. And although there are undoubtedly differences, Labour is on a similar trajectory. Too many false promises, too many evasions, too many contradictions, too many hypocrisies. Even poor Theresa May can manage to say 'working class' with more conviction than Corbyn, who prefers the term 'working people'.
> 
> Trust me on this, under the bright lights, this bolting together of old school stalinists and floppy liberals will not to be a good electoral look.



Corbyn's base is very similar to that which propelled Hollande to victory in France. His election was greeted with hyperbole across the European left at the time with them lining up to publicly speculate about a progressive social democratic alliance forming across Europe with France, Greece and Spain at the forefront. We know what happened to Greece as the institution so beloved of the middle class left forced austerity and bankruptcy onto the people. In Spain, the impulse is no longer about a socialist society but towards (legitmate) separatist/independence movements and in France? Hollande was booted out with record low polling levels and the French election was a run off between an orthodox neo-liberal and a fascist.

What did all these movements have in common? All thought the project could be achieved without the working class - or that the working class had nowhere else to go and would be with them - and that an alliance of discredited cobweb left types, students, stalinists, opportunists and rehabilitated careerists, minority interest groups and a disaffected lower middle class could get the job done.  History tells us that they were disastrously wrong.	

As for Corbyn's Labour, detailed work by sociologist Paula Surridge (which I posted on the Corbyn thread where it was ignored) demonstrated that in the 2017 GE the more working class voters in a constituency there were the more it swung tory. The less working class and the higher the density of students the more it swung labour. As for the activist base fanboying Jeremy - 77% are ABC1 with high levels of social and cultural capital.

As someone once said 'those who do not learn the lessons of history......'


----------



## chilango (Oct 5, 2017)

Whilst I agree with Joe on this, Belboid's point on how we are defining the w/c is crucial. 

in my constituency, Reading East, Labour swept to an unexpected victory. Even they had no idea it was happening. Who swept them to the win? White collar workers. The very section of the proletariat that have been told over and over that they are m/c and should have the aspirations to match. But, now, in the face of rents of £1200+ pcm, housing dominated by BTL landlords, jobs with no security, mounting student debts, grinding commutes, etc etc maybe, just maybe, things are fraying.

Sure, these aren't the "left behinds" that RD2003 talks about but they're every bit as proletarian and they are the breeding ground for the alt-right.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 5, 2017)

The39thStep got a reference or link for the graph you posted mate?


----------



## belboid (Oct 5, 2017)

Smokeandsteam said:


> As for Corbyn's Labour, detailed work by sociologist Paula Surridge (which I posted on the Corbyn thread where it was ignored) demonstrated that in the 2017 GE the more working class voters in a constituency there were the more it swung tory.


where did you do this? You made two posts on the Corbyn thread after the election, neither mentioned anything to do with this.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 5, 2017)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Corbyn's base is very similar to that which propelled Hollande to victory in France. His election was greeted with hyperbole across the European left at the time with them lining up to publicly speculate about a progressive social democratic alliance forming across Europe with France, Greece and Spain at the forefront. We know what happened to Greece as the institution so beloved of the middle class left forced austerity and bankruptcy onto the people. In Spain, the impulse is no longer about a socialist society but towards (legitmate) separatist/independence movements and in France? Hollande was booted out with record low polling levels and the French election was a run off between an orthodox neo-liberal and a fascist.
> 
> What did all these movements have in common? All thought the project could be achieved without the working class - or that the working class had nowhere else to go and would be with them - and that an alliance of discredited cobweb left types, students, stalinists, opportunists and rehabilitated careerists, minority interest groups and a disaffected lower middle class could get the job done.  History tells us that they were disastrously wrong.
> 
> ...


Surridge mentioned by you on the political polling thread but not this bit about w/c tories


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 5, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> Surridge mentioned by you on the political polling thread but not this bit about w/c tories



How the Labour vote reflects a values-based realignment of the British electorate | British Politics and Policy at LSE


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 5, 2017)

Smokeandsteam said:


> The39thStep got a reference or link for the graph you posted mate?


it was on a Mathew Goodwin tweet this morning  "People like me have no say in gvt", 1986-2012 (UK)


----------



## TopCat (Oct 5, 2017)

This sounds a lot like bleating from the left (outside).


----------



## belboid (Oct 5, 2017)

Smokeandsteam said:


> How the Labour vote reflects a values-based realignment of the British electorate | British Politics and Policy at LSE


Under 30's excluded from the data - understandable considering it's about vote change, but clearly means its misses out a massive and important cohort.

Also - lowest household income quartile, the loss of votes to tories is less than the gains.  Not sure that really supports your argument very well.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 9, 2017)

https://info.publicintelligence.net/NCRIC-ViolentProtestTactics.pdf


----------



## krink (Oct 9, 2017)

that's quite interesting. is that genuine and wtf is bear spray? is it for attracting large, hairy, gay gentlemen?


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 9, 2017)

krink said:


> that's quite interesting. is that genuine and wtf is bear spray? is it for attracting large, hairy, gay gentlemen?


its supposed to be more effective than small arms fire against an angry bear because they have huge sensitive sinuses etc. Wherea a little slug would just thump ito a dense muscle mass 

like mace but for bears. Not safe for humans


----------



## krink (Oct 9, 2017)

oh yeah, i forgot they actually have bears wandering around cheers DotCommunist


----------



## Joe Reilly (Oct 12, 2017)

In the 1980's Linda Bellos was a high profile black, Jewish, lesbian radical feminist. She once berated an AFA security steward for 'dressing like a fascist' because he was wearing a flight jacket. She choose to overlook the fact that he was black.

In any event the same Linda Bellos has this week been 'no-platformed' by Cambridge University. She has been deemed to be transphobic apparently.

So, what does this tell us?

Well, when it comes to identity politics no matter far out you are politically you will eventually be out-flanked. For example, some trans activists argue that people like Bellos (for the crime of being an actual woman) ought to be treated exactly like fascists - no-platformed, punched, kicked, killed.

Which ironically, is the same playbook actual fascists would have been flipping through in the 80's when it came to the likes of LB.

Further evidence of the the liberal  Left being entirely un-moored.


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 14, 2017)

Joe Reilly said:


> In the 1980's Linda Bellos was a high profile black, Jewish, lesbian radical feminist. She once berated an AFA security steward for 'dressing like a fascist' because he was wearing a flight jacket. She choose to overlook the fact that he was black.
> 
> In any event the same Linda Bellos has this week been 'no-platformed' by Cambridge University. She has been deemed to be transphobic apparently.
> 
> ...


I remember her well , she must have been in every section of the Labour Party that they set up. In fact they couldn't set them up fast enough. Wasn't she leader of a council at some point?


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## Red Sky (Oct 14, 2017)

Joe Reilly said:


> In the 1980's Linda Bellos was a high profile black, Jewish, lesbian radical feminist. She once berated an AFA security steward for 'dressing like a fascist' because he was wearing a flight jacket. She choose to overlook the fact that he was black.
> 
> In any event the same Linda Bellos has this week been 'no-platformed' by Cambridge University. She has been deemed to be transphobic apparently.
> 
> ...



Evidence of a handful of campus activists being utterly fucking deranged perhaps.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Oct 14, 2017)

Red Sky said:


> Evidence of a handful of campus activists being utterly fucking deranged perhaps.



Well, for a just a handful of campus activists they certainly seem to punch above their weight. The latest wheeze is to remove gender from the government's census on the grounds that its "invasive." Liberal left indulgence is clearly critical in this 'campus derangement' migrating.


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## killer b (Oct 14, 2017)

Can you link us up to that 'wheeze' Joe?

All I can find is a story whipped up by the scab press out of a report the ONS had done to investigate how they might include information about transgender etc people into census statistics. Seems a reasonable enough thing to have someone look into to me.


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## The39thStep (Oct 14, 2017)

Nothing to worry about then?


----------



## killer b (Oct 14, 2017)

FTR I agree with your post about Linda Bellos - but following that up by uncritically repeating tiresome anti-PC fabrications from The Times doesn't really help your argument.


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## killer b (Oct 14, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> Nothing to worry about then?


I dunno, I'm just seeing if I can find the source report now.


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## killer b (Oct 14, 2017)

I think it's this: as far as I can tell, a technical document about the difficulties of collecting accurate data about the gender identity of respondents to a census. I don't think it's anything to worry about.


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## Joe Reilly (Oct 14, 2017)

killer b said:


> FTR I agree with your post about Linda Bellos - but following that up by uncritically repeating tiresome anti-PC fabrications from The Times doesn't really help your argument.



That remains to be seen. But a rebuttal denouncing 'tiresome anti-PC fabrications by the scab press', exhibits the type of hyper sensitivity that hardly does it any harm either.


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## killer b (Oct 14, 2017)

lol right.


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## Red Sky (Oct 14, 2017)

Joe Reilly said:


> Well, for a just a handful of campus activists they certainly seem to punch above their weight. The latest wheeze is to remove gender from the government's census on the grounds that its "invasive." Liberal left indulgence is clearly critical in this 'campus derangement' migrating.



It is political correctness gone mad.


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## Magnus McGinty (Oct 14, 2017)

You don’t need to be a DM reader to find the pervasive effects of identity politics irritating.


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## killer b (Oct 15, 2017)

Quite: but is a document discussing how best to design a questionnaire so it accurately records census data really something to get irritated by?


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## Magnus McGinty (Oct 15, 2017)

killer b said:


> Quite: but is a document discussing how best to design a questionnaire so it accurately records census data really something to get irritated by?



Not if taken in isolation, perhaps. But it forms part of a bigger narrative.


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## killer b (Oct 15, 2017)

What bigger narrative does it form? Have you read it?


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## Joe Reilly (Oct 15, 2017)

Red Sky said:


> It is political correctness gone mad.


When the liberal instinct is to re-order society in a fundamental way around 000.1 of the population at the whim of an even tinier on-line band of women hating zealots, then arguably you have indeed slipped sanity's leash.


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## Joe Reilly (Oct 16, 2017)

killer b said:


> What bigger narrative does it form? Have you read it?



The bigger narrative is neo-liberalism. And identity politics is the left face of it.


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## killer b (Oct 16, 2017)

I know about that bigger narrative, I'm just not clear what a document discussing how best to design a survey to take into account gender diversity has to do with it? Unless you think transgender etc people don't exist or their number should't be recorded, then it's fairly important that a way to record it is worked out - and as the document demonstrates, it's far from straightforward. 

It isn't some kind of do-good liberal handwringing thing, it's a response to a real-world issue which will have an impact on the validity of the census if they don't get it right.

I agree with you that ID politics can be alienating to the wider population: one of the reasons for this is because of a divisive campaign by people on the right to misconstrue things like this and use them as examples of mad out of touch lefties. It's for us to look into stories like this and work out how real they are rather than taking them at face value and repeating them, or you're just doing their work for them.


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## Joe Reilly (Oct 16, 2017)

killer b said:


> I know about that bigger narrative, I'm just not clear what a document discussing how best to design a survey to take into account gender diversity has to do with it? Unless you think transgender etc people don't exist or their number should't be recorded, then it's fairly important that a way to record it is worked out - and as the document demonstrates, it's far from straightforward.
> 
> It isn't some kind of do-good liberal handwringing thing, it's a response to a real-world issue which will have an impact on the validity of the census if they don't get it right.
> 
> I agree with you that ID politics can be alienating to the wider population: one of the reasons for this is because of a divisive campaign by people on the right to misconstrue things like this and use them as examples of mad out of touch lefties. It's for us to look into stories like this and work out how real they are rather than taking them at face value and repeating them, or you're just doing their work for them.



This is not about a simple survey. The whole issue around so called 'non-binary gender diversity' is ideologically driven. So it it very much part of the wider neo-liberal narrative. Although the campaign is demonstrably non-organic, elements on the left pretend that it is, and misconstrue what is actually going on to allow them to define the slightest hesitation or opposition to their agenda as 'hate crime'.
The astonishing pace set by the trans lobby in Canada and the US shows that it is now an accepted part of the new liberal orthodoxy.  So when you accuse the 'scab press' of fake news without any evidence, that is in itself by definition 'fake news'.
It is not necessary to be a scholar or even literate to understand there is only one beneficiary from this kind of dissembling in the long run. The day after Austria has just elected its most far-right government since 1938 ought to give any genuine anti-fascist pause for thought before lining up behind these charlatans.


----------



## belboid (Oct 16, 2017)

Joe Reilly said:


> This is not about a simple survey. The whole issue around so called 'gender diversity' is ideologically driven. So it it very much part of the wider neo-liberal narrative. Although the campaign is demonstrably non-organic, elements on the left pretend that it is, and misconstrue what is actually going on to allow them to define the slightest hesitation or opposition to their agenda as 'hate crime'.
> The astonishing pace set by the trans lobby in Canada and the US shows that it is now an accepted part of the new liberal orthodoxy.  So when you accuse the 'scab press' of fake news without any evidence, that is in itself by definition 'fake news'.
> It is not necessary to be a scholar or even literate to understand there is only one beneficiary from this kind of dissembling in the long run. The day after Austria has just elected its most far-right government since 1938 ought to give any genuine anti-fascist pause for thought before lining up behind these charlatans.


yuck. 

It isn't a simple survey - that is about the only true thing in your post. It is the most thorough survey of the British population, it is thorough and detailed. Within that context it is obvious to all but Daily Mail style bigots, why it is a perfectly reasonable question to explore. You may 'know' that it affects 000.1% of the population (or 0.001% as I imagine you meant), but that's a figure you plucked straight from your arse. We dont know what it is, and it is worth finding out. Worldwide, 1.7% of people have intersex characteristics - which equates to around a million people in the UK. Plenty will be happy to describe themselves as the sex they were ascribed at birth, but some wont.  And its worth finding out just how many of them there are.


----------



## Red Sky (Oct 16, 2017)

Joe Reilly said:


> This is not about a simple survey. The whole issue around so called 'non-binary gender diversity' is ideologically driven. So it it very much part of the wider neo-liberal narrative. Although the campaign is demonstrably non-organic, elements on the left pretend that it is, and misconstrue what is actually going on to allow them to define the slightest hesitation or opposition to their agenda as 'hate crime'.
> The astonishing pace set by the trans lobby in Canada and the US shows that it is now an accepted part of the new liberal orthodoxy.  So when you accuse the 'scab press' of fake news without any evidence, that is in itself by definition 'fake news'.
> It is not necessary to be a scholar or even literate to understand there is only one beneficiary from this kind of dissembling in the long run. The day after Austria has just elected its most far-right government since 1938 ought to give any genuine anti-fascist pause for thought before lining up behind these charlatans.



How does something being "ideologically driven" mean that it's part of the "wider neo liberal narrative" ? Bit of a non sequitur there.


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## RD2003 (Oct 16, 2017)

belboid said:


> yuck.
> 
> It isn't a simple survey - that is about the only true thing in your post. It is the most thorough survey of the British population, it is thorough and detailed. Within that context it is obvious to all but Daily Mail style bigots, why it is a perfectly reasonable question to explore. You may 'know' that it affects 000.1% of the population (or 0.001% as I imagine you meant), but that's a figure you plucked straight from your arse. We dont know what it is, and it is worth finding out. Worldwide, 1.7% of people have intersex characteristics - which equates to around a million people in the UK. Plenty will be happy to describe themselves as the sex they were ascribed at birth, but some wont.  And its worth finding out just how many of them there are.



Why is it worth finding out?


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## Red Sky (Oct 16, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> Worth finding out why exactly?



Are you getting at the whole idea of having a census?


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## RD2003 (Oct 16, 2017)

Red Sky said:


> Are you getting at the whole idea of having a census?


Yes. Might as well think up as many categories as you can to add. It probably means jobs for people in the know.


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## Red Sky (Oct 16, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> Yes. Might as well think up as many things as you can to add. It probably means jobs for people in the know.



It does seem to be a colossal waste of time.


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## RD2003 (Oct 16, 2017)

Red Sky said:


> It does seem to be a colossal waste of time.


Bit like contemporary society as a whole.


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## Red Sky (Oct 16, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> Bit like contemporary society as a whole.


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## killer b (Oct 16, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> Why is it worth finding out?


The accuracy of a census requires goodwill on the part of the respondents. If you've decided to ignore a vocal and organised part of the population you're surveying, then you can probably expect there to be a campaign to give invalid responses that would likely spread far beyond those you've excluded. This actually happened (in Australia I think - it goes into detail in the study).


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## killer b (Oct 16, 2017)

Joe Reilly said:


> when you accuse the 'scab press' of fake news without any evidence, that is in itself by definition 'fake news'.


I've read the report, linked to it and discussed over several posts what it says. What it definitely doesn't say - the reason I bothered getting into this in the first place, is:


Joe Reilly said:


> The latest wheeze is to remove gender from the government's census on the grounds that its "invasive."


That just isn't true. It's not real. You're repeating a non-story from a Murdoch newspaper.


> It is not necessary to be a scholar or even literate to understand there is only one beneficiary from this kind of dissembling in the long run. The day after Austria has just elected its most far-right government since 1938 ought to give any genuine anti-fascist pause for thought before lining up behind these charlatans.


I'm not lining up behind anyone. I was just asking you to check your sources.


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## killer b (Oct 16, 2017)

(your source in this case is Andrew Gilligan ffs)


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## Smokeandsteam (Oct 17, 2017)

Post colonialism, identity, cultural threory, third wave feminism - post modernism in short- these ideas are much more than a survey or a question.

These ideas have become dominant in academia, they have become dominant across the left and they are regularly recuperated and co-opted by liberals and neo-liberals. What are the dominant and common characteristics of these ideas?

1. Class is often emptied out/relegated as a primary focus/source of agency. Other characteristics - sometimes of choice, sometimes of birth - are seen as more important and unifying. 
2. Capital becomes just one source of oppression, becuase oppression is something that everyone does to each other. For some opppression isn't even linked to the organsiation of society but to 'others'.	 
3..  Those holding these ideas can become focussed on achieving gains within the system by competing with other vested identity groups (rather than changing the system).
3. Over time these same proponents can become invested in the maintenance and operation of the system as they develop a small stake within its structures.
4. Neo liberalism and liberals generally welcome this form of politics and are happy to make concessions with it and bargain with it within existing frameworks that they operate and control.
5. This approach can channel ideas, energy, hope, youth and confidence into dead ends where the best that can be achieved is recognition from those with power and a better allocation of resource under the system than other groups. 
6. Others in society learn that to achieve ANYTHING - acknowledgement of your plight, resources, investment - you must organise yourselves along similar identarian lines and join in the elbowing for recognition and resources. 

But by all means sneeringly suggest that this is merely about a census question rather than the use of an example to highlight a wider set of ideas.


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## belboid (Oct 17, 2017)

On that basis you should object to them asking any questions about ethnicity, sexuality, or gender.  That would be pretty obviously fucking stupid though, even for you.


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## killer b (Oct 17, 2017)

The _example_ being used is an inaccurate attack piece by a class enemy.


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## Magnus McGinty (Oct 17, 2017)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Post colonialism, identity, cultural threory, third wave feminism - post modernism in short- these ideas are much more than a survey or a question.
> 
> These ideas have become dominant in academia, they have become dominant across the left and they are regularly recuperated and co-opted by liberals and neo-liberals. What are the dominant and common characteristics of these ideas?
> 
> ...



Good post. Two number threes though?


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## killer b (Oct 17, 2017)

Smokeandsteam said:


> 1. Class is often emptied out/relegated as a primary focus/source of agency. Other characteristics - sometimes of choice, sometimes of birth - are seen as more important and unifying.
> 2. Capital becomes just one source of oppression, becuase oppression is something that everyone does to each other. For some opppression isn't even linked to the organsiation of society but to 'others'.
> 3.. Those holding these ideas can become focussed on achieving gains within the system by competing with other vested identity groups (rather than changing the system).
> 3. Over time these same proponents can become invested in the maintenance and operation of the system as they develop a small stake within its structures.
> ...


FWIW I agree with all this. I just don't think the way to go about challenging it is by repeating easily countered stories from the right-wing press.


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## Magnus McGinty (Oct 17, 2017)

killer b said:


> The _example_ being used is an inaccurate attack piece by a class enemy.



But surely that just reinforces the point that identity politics suits the political right as it can be put to good use by sowing division amongst the competing identities?


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## killer b (Oct 17, 2017)

Absolutely, but it doesn't _just_ do that. It also reinforces the point that we should check the accuracy of a story before repeating it.


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## belboid (Oct 17, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> But surely that just reinforces the point that identity politics suits the political right as it can be put to good use by sowing division amongst the competing identities?


'Can' does not equal 'always'  Promoting bigotry and pretending genuine oppressions dont exist is also a good method of sowing division.


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## hot air baboon (Oct 17, 2017)

killer b said:


> What bigger narrative does it form? Have you read it?



piggy backs fairly neatly with the NHS story about patients being asked to disclose their sexual orientation - the big brother state sticking its nose into every intimate crevice of peoples' lives or something along those lines


Nurses to be expected to ask patients about sexual orientation


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## belboid (Oct 17, 2017)

hot air baboon said:


> piggy backs fairly neatly with the NHS story about patients being asked to disclose their sexual orientation - the big brother state sticking its nose into every intimate crevice of peoples' lives or something along those lines
> 
> 
> Nurses to be expected to ask patients about sexual orientation


Yes, that's the standard response from someone every decade - usually from the right who oppose any kind of state planning.


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## hot air baboon (Oct 17, 2017)

yes, although its also quite possible, even rational, for people to be cynical, wary or suspicous of the organs of the state & what they do with information


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## belboid (Oct 17, 2017)

hot air baboon said:


> yes, although its also quite possible, even rational, for people to be cynical, wary or suspicous of the organs of the state & what they do with information


Indeed. But is is all anonymised and isolated from other government held info. There is not one case of it being used to track individuals or groups. It's an invaluable resource.


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## TopCat (Oct 17, 2017)

belboid said:


> Indeed. But is is all anonymised and isolated from other government held info. There is not one case of it being used to track individuals or groups. It's an invaluable resource.


I have never completed a census form as I dont trust the govt.


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## Joe Reilly (Oct 17, 2017)

killer b said:


> The _example_ being used is an inaccurate attack piece by a class enemy.



New York City now recognizes 31 different genders. I had to check to see if male and female were still included. They are. For now. (These are precisely the issues being discussed in the focus group you bizarrely continue to insist is entirely fabricated). 

Obviously none of this could have happened without social liberalism and capitalism being fully aligned.  

In other words when it comes to fashion issues like this - pretend radicalism that changes nothing of consequence - the 'class enemy' is totally on side. 

More to the point, in terms of this discussion, 'the class enemy' is on _your_ side.

And the result of this decades long collusion (unwitting and otherwise)? 

One, as militant anti-fascism long foresaw - the far-right is effective in presenting itself as the radical alternative.

And two, and as importantly, it is doing so not at the expense of moderate conservatives but at the direct expense of social democracy which is now visibly collapsing across Europe as a result.


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 17, 2017)

not so much a gender issue but sexuality . I see Kevin Wilkinson , a minor player but erstwhile traveller both in distance and fascist circles has come out both Jewish and gay. Might be mitigation in his coming court case .


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## RD2003 (Oct 18, 2017)

What seems to be overlooked in this kind of discussion is that while a majority of working class voters may still be voting Labour, it is, for many, only out of a lack of alternative for those who either can't bear to vote Tory, or else view the far-right (even if you include UKIP) as either still beyond the pale or incapable of effecting real change. Those who will, for now, continue to vote Labour no matter what.

Enthusiasm for the Corbyn experiment seems largely confined to activist circles, and is thus totally dependent on the above factors. And those activist circles were long ago captivated by the illusion that overcoming 'oppression' (real or imagined, societal, or simply personally experienced, and ever-expanding in its categories) will somehow lead to a recognition that capitalism is the root of all problems. That they are increasingly joined by-barely more than apolitical-allies who, due (by and large) to their relatively cushy positions in that part of the economy where you receive a salary for bringing about 'progressive' change, or their ambitions to join it, have no real beef with capitalism,even if they imagine that they do, is only grist to the mill.

As for that part of the the working class lacking in the same opportunities, personal contacts, or the education of those who claim to have their best interests at heart, as well as a fuzzy explanation as to where they've been going wrong for two centuries in their personal behaviour-if they won't continue to vote Labour they can be written off as hopeless cases, abandoned to right-wing populism-and this in complete oblivion to the fact that any notion of socialism is entirely meaningless without them.


----------



## krink (Oct 18, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> I see Kevin Wilkinson , a minor player but erstwhile traveller both in distance and fascist circles has come out both Jewish and gay. Might be mitigation in his coming court case .


Not convinced at all. Court case, prevent, hope not hate... That spells "deal" to me not a change of heart.


----------



## malatesta32 (Oct 18, 2017)

who is he?


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## krink (Oct 18, 2017)

NF as far as I recall. HNH have took him in.


----------



## 19force8 (Oct 18, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> What seems to be overlooked in this kind of discussion is that while a majority of working class voters may still be voting Labour, it is, for many, only out of a lack of alternative for those who either can't bear to vote Tory, or else view the far-right (even if you include UKIP) as either still beyond the pale or incapable of effecting real change. Those who will, for now, continue to vote Labour no matter what.


This doesn't make sense. It's true there isn't an alternative to Labour at the moment, but that doesn't mean [many of] the working class stick with Labour because the far right is "beyond the pale" or ineffective. Completely ignoring the possibility they vote Labour out of some sense of class consciousness, however atrophied by forty years of neoliberalism.

Also, if you look at the record of the last twenty years you'll see that the main alternative to voting Labour has been not voting at all.



RD2003 said:


> Enthusiasm for the Corbyn experiment seems largely confined to activist circles, and is thus totally dependent on the above factors.


What above factors? The lack of a viable fascist alternative?

Of course "enthusiasm" for Corbyn is greater amongst activists, but activists don't account for the extra 3.5million votes.

When you talk about all these cushy jobs "where you receive a salary for bringing about 'progressive' change" it makes it obvious your entire post is no more than a bunch of random prejudices pulled out of the arsewipe of modern journalism and thrown together in lieu of independent thought. I resent the time lost reading it and I'm not going to waste any more responding.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 18, 2017)

malatesta32 said:


> who is he?



I think he meant Wilshaw not Wilkinson.


----------



## tony.c (Oct 18, 2017)

malatesta32 said:


> who is he?





Magnus McGinty said:


> I think he meant Wilshaw not Wilkinson.



Exclusive: Neo-Nazi and National Front organiser quits movement, opens up about Jewish heritage, comes out as gay


----------



## Joe Reilly (Oct 19, 2017)

19force8 said:


> Of course "enthusiasm" for Corbyn is greater amongst activists, but activists don't account for the extra 3.5million votes.


Labour has been chipping away at its own working class base for decades. Corbyn will only accelerate the process. By 2020 Labour will be a metropolitan liberal party in all but name, leaving a symmetry between the voters and the activists. Which is the same process other formerly social democratic parties have gone through in Europe. So there is no 'extra' 3.5 million votes. it is merely a trade off between the former constituency and the new one. In other words the 'extras' are not in addition to, but instead of. Which is why after the 'best campaign ever etc' Labour still came up short. At an existential level once the working class vote has gone, as the French, Dutch, and now Austrian socialist parties have found out, it doesn't come back.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Oct 19, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> not so much a gender issue but sexuality . I see Kevin Wilkinson , a minor player but erstwhile traveller both in distance and fascist circles has come out both Jewish and gay. Might be mitigation in his coming court case .



If that's the case, he should have gone the full hog and self-identified as a trans-woman (he could have kept the beard for added authenticity - 'DON'T JUDGE ME!'). 
In the current climate there is a good chance all would be swiftly forgotten.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 19, 2017)

Joe Reilly said:


> Labour has been chipping away at its own working class base for decades. Corbyn will only accelerate the process. By 2020 Labour will be a metropolitan liberal party in all but name, leaving a symmetry between the voters and the activists. Which is the same process other formerly social democratic parties have gone through in Europe. So there is no 'extra' 3.5 million votes. it is merely a trade off between the former constituency and the new one. In other words the 'extras' are not in addition to, but instead of. Which is why after the 'best campaign ever etc' Labour still came up short. At an existential level once the working class vote has gone, as the French, Dutch, and now Austrian socialist parties have found out, it doesn't come back.


This is all speculation. Lets see how it plays out. Not much else going on.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 19, 2017)

TopCat said:


> This is all speculation. Lets see how it plays out. Not much else going on.



It’s not speculation. The increase in the labour vote in 2017 overwhelmingly came from the non working class. They lost ground in working class constituencies - outside of the cities.

In addition to the European Social Democrats Corbyn increasingly reminds me of George McGovern, trying to build a ‘new left’ coalition on the basis of a policy orientations to students/hipsters/identity politics and the assumption workers were ‘in the bag’.

Unlike Corbyn he lost the unions but critically also learned eventually that you can’t ride two horses at once and drove blue collar America into a cultural accommodation with the Republicans.


----------



## RD2003 (Oct 20, 2017)

We may well be witnessing a disaster in the making.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 21, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> We may well be witnessing a disaster in the making.


We may well be wittnesssing a revival of Socialist policy.


----------



## Riklet (Oct 21, 2017)

So aside from we-told-you-so attacks on the rise of the far right, the rise of labour social democracy across classes (come the fuck on if you dont think corbyn has appealed to a good chunk of working class young peoole) and attacks on identity politics, what political analysis and tools do the various long term posters on this thread have to offer.

Where is the action with the theory? Because after 7 years of reading the same doom-mongering here, granted often very spot on analysis, it would be nice to see something for the future as well. Critical analysis great, but does anyone think going on about too many genders in New York resonates politically with the working class? Is this going to increase political participation in 2017? I'd  rather listen to grime at some rainy Corbyn rally with a load of somewhat engaged people than rehash the minutae of identity politics. Radical attacks on social democracy fair enough.... but with what relevant aim politically and socially?


----------



## Joe Reilly (Nov 8, 2017)

TopCat said:


> We may well be wittnesssing a revival of Socialist policy.



Bob Hope and no hope.

Just look at the way Labour has handled recent controversies. It has for instance gone from sacking individual whistle-blowing campaigners against sexual abuse to sacking individuals against whom sex allegations have been made, and in true Kafkaesque fashion without disclosing the substance of the allegations made against the accused, while at the same time conducting interviews with the media implying the allegations are so well-founded no other course of action was appropriate. Career and personal reputation already destroyed in other words, before the opportunity is offered to counter the narrative.

Contrast this with the Labour MP, accused of something or other along the same lines, who just because he was a Corbyn supporter was actually promoted. Or the candidate with a  long public history of misogyny selected over the protests of the local party just because he was a Momentum supporter. Which would be contradictory enough if at the same time an actual rape allegation where unusually the identity of the alleged victim (self-identified) is known but the accused is somehow still in the shadows.
(An injunction? Another Momentum worthy by any chance?)

Now, if the grooming scandal was mishandled in one way because of sensitivities around accusations of Islamaphobia then on-going allegations of institutional anti-Semitism is being mishandled but in exactly the opposite way. 
'Socialist revival'? Don't think so. 

Ultimately, nothing screams out 'Not ready for power now - or ever' than this constant unprincipled micro-mangling of priorities while in opposition.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Nov 9, 2017)

Riklet said:


> So aside from we-told-you-so attacks on the rise of the far right, the rise of labour social democracy across classes (come the fuck on if you dont think corbyn has appealed to a good chunk of working class young peoole) and attacks on identity politics, what political analysis and tools do the various long term posters on this thread have to offer.
> 
> Where is the action with the theory? Because after 7 years of reading the same doom-mongering here, granted often very spot on analysis, it would be nice to see something for the future as well. Critical analysis great, but does anyone think going on about too many genders in New York resonates politically with the working class? Is this going to increase political participation in 2017? I'd  rather listen to grime at some rainy Corbyn rally with a load of somewhat engaged people than rehash the minutae of identity politics. Radical attacks on social democracy fair enough.... but with what relevant aim politically and socially?



There is a long established instinct on the liberal Left to act when thinking is required and to chin-stroke when action is required. Taking time out inside a bubble inside an echo chamber might be calming, and may even be understandable given the situation we are in. But unless the militant compass which has proved unerringly accurate over the last three decades - especially in contrast to others who consider themselves specialists in the same field - is now malfunctioning, things are going to be a hell of a lot worse when you come out.  

The 'relevant aim politically and socially' of such a prognosis?  

The combination of more or less unprecedented immigration combined with identity politics is truly toxic. Ignoring the trajectory of social democracy in places like France (in the 18-24 bracket almost one in two have an affinity to the FN) Germany and Austria to cite just a few examples, is criminally introspective. You are in short, heading in the wrong direction. And when the penny does eventually drop it will likely be far too late to do anything about it.


----------



## chilango (Nov 9, 2017)

If you’re not sure what to _do_, sometimes it’s best to _do_ nothing.



> Life moves pretty fast. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it.


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## steveo87 (Nov 9, 2017)

Is...is... THATS FERRIS BUELLER!!


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## Fozzie Bear (Jan 19, 2018)

This is pretty great, lots of first person accounts of physical resistance to boneheads at US punks shows:
How Black Flag, Bad Brains, and More Reclaimed Punk from White Supremacists


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## The39thStep (Jan 19, 2018)

Joe Reilly said:


> There is a long established instinct on the liberal Left to act when thinking is required and to chin-stroke when action is required. Taking time out inside a bubble inside an echo chamber might be calming, and may even be understandable given the situation we are in. But unless the militant compass which has proved unerringly accurate over the last three decades - especially in contrast to others who consider themselves specialists in the same field - is now malfunctioning, things are going to be a hell of a lot worse when you come out.
> 
> The 'relevant aim politically and socially' of such a prognosis?
> 
> The combination of more or less unprecedented immigration combined with identity politics is truly toxic. Ignoring the trajectory of social democracy in places like France (in the 18-24 bracket almost one in two have an affinity to the FN) Germany and Austria to cite just a few examples, is criminally introspective. You are in short, heading in the wrong direction. And when the penny does eventually drop it will likely be far too late to do anything about it.



Just read The Rise of The Right by   Simon Winlow 	 	  	 (Author), 	  	 	  	 		 		 		 			 		 		 		 		 	 Steve Hall 	 	  	 (Author) 	  	 	   https://www.amazon.co.uk/rise-Right-nationalism-transformation-working-class/dp/1447328485
Its a devastating and powerful polemic on how at a time of rampant neo liberalism destroying the working class and its historic position  the liberal left not just abandoned the working class but made them the enemy.Its far from optimistic I'm afraid but its extremely realistic. Its post Brexit analysis at the end goes straight to the jugular. Reccomended and if anyones read it or reads it its surely worthy of a thread on here.


----------



## krink (Feb 21, 2018)

posted this in the 'former cops' thread but thought it might be of interest to followers of this thread. c-18 bomb hoax note turned out to have been written by a man who later became a cop.

Veteran Canvey cop revealed as author of 1999 terror note linked to far right group


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## ska invita (Feb 21, 2018)

The39thStep said:


> Its post Brexit analysis at the end goes straight to the jugular.


Quick summary of that bit please?


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## The39thStep (Feb 21, 2018)

ska invita said:


> Quick summary of that bit please?


I'll get back to you Ska


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## Red About Town (Feb 25, 2018)

An excellent article on Italy's Casa Pound. Worth reading for all anti-fascists. 
The fascist movement that has brought Mussolini back to the mainstream


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## Joe Reilly (Feb 26, 2018)

Red About Town said:


> An excellent article on Italy's Casa Pound. Worth reading for all anti-fascists.
> The fascist movement that has brought Mussolini back to the mainstream



...and liberal backing for freedom of movement has brought fascism back to the mainstream.


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## Joe Reilly (Mar 1, 2018)

Red About Town said:


> An excellent article on Italy's Casa Pound. Worth reading for all anti-fascists.
> The fascist movement that has brought Mussolini back to the mainstream



"We're doing what the Communists stopped doing'. _Casa Pound 
_
And there, as they say, you have it.


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## Joe Reilly (Mar 5, 2018)

We've all heard of political dark arts. But the newly recruited adviser to Dawn Butler has taken  it to a another level. According to a recent interview she boasts of actually "practising voodoo". 

Previously she had insisted "all white people were racist". 

But that did not prove any deterrent to being welcomed into the ranks. It is only after she announced she was "a witch" that Labour began to check her references. 

Social democracy is collapsing across Europe. It is self-destructing here too. But in a comically different way.


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## Red About Town (Mar 13, 2018)

Article on Antifa that I've seen shared today. 
How British Police Shut Down the Original UK Antifa


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## The39thStep (Mar 13, 2018)

Red About Town said:


> Article on Antifa that I've seen shared today.
> How British Police Shut Down the Original UK Antifa


I remember talking to other posters about this on this site and others. Amazing when you think how long AFA went for , despite arrests, the organisation was never broken.


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## Red Sky (Mar 13, 2018)

The39thStep said:


> I remember talking to other posters about this on this site and others. Amazing when you think how long AFA went for , despite arrests, the organisation was never broken.



An odd article. I wonder if all those involved gave their permission to have the video footage used like this.


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## The39thStep (Mar 13, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> An odd article. I wonder if all those involved gave their permission to have the video footage used like this.


Do they have to? Most of it must be in the public domain. What did you find odd about it btw? The info in the article tallies up with what we knew when the trials started.


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## Joe Reilly (Mar 14, 2018)

The39thStep said:


> I remember talking to other posters about this on this site and others. Amazing when you think how long AFA went for , despite arrests, the organisation was never broken.



Totally different circumstances, totally different in terms of ambition, and totally different in terms of personnel.

Gathering Intelligence counter-surveillance and counter-interrogation were priorities. Antifa seemed to have zero regard for any of them: a toxic mixture of hubris and amateur. 
Inevitably once even a small number are arrested, and with no support network to fall back on and no de-briefing, the very real danger is that it becomes every man for himself then and thereafter. 
Which from the outside looking in is what appears to have happened here. 
So blaming it all on state surveillance and so forth, is at best, telling very much less than half the story.


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## Joe Reilly (Mar 14, 2018)

Red About Town said:


> Article on Antifa that I've seen shared today.
> How British Police Shut Down the Original UK Antifa



The headline is misleading. As is made perfectly clear inside, it was Antifa and not the police that shut down Antifa.


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## Joe Reilly (Mar 26, 2018)

A couple of years ago Jews were fleeing France in record numbers out of fear of Islamist violence. Some of them fled here. Now the Jewish community here is forced to hold public protests against an anti-Jewish instinct in an otherwise virtue signalling Labour Party. Yet another sign the European Left is utterly adrift.


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## Red About Town (May 20, 2018)

Looking forward to getting my hands on new limited edition badge of the classic design..


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## Pickman's model (May 20, 2018)

Joe Reilly said:


> Totally different circumstances, totally different in terms of ambition, and totally different in terms of personnel.
> 
> Gathering Intelligence counter-surveillance and counter-interrogation were priorities. Antifa seemed to have zero regard for any of them: a toxic mixture of hubris and amateur.
> Inevitably once even a small number are arrested, and with no support network to fall back on and no de-briefing, the very real danger is that it becomes every man for himself then and thereafter.
> ...


Yeh. Being as there's things not mentioned in the article, such as events earlier in the day and material produced in discovery during the trials of the 22 tried for welling, supporting the surveillance story your looking from the outside isn't seeing the whole picture. In addition to which a support network did support all the accused throughout the lengthy legal process and all the convicted throughout their time inside, helping too when they came out. Your claim about every man for himself not borne out by the behaviour of any of the antifa activists on trial.


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## past caring (May 22, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> Your claim about every man for himself not borne out by the behaviour of *any* of the antifa activists on trial.



What about the bloke who turned state? My recollection was that his touting wasn't enough to avoid being charged, or have I misremembered that? As for the state surveillance, whilst the CCTV may have been of some importance in securing convictions, it's equally the case that the participants' blyth disregard of the likelihood (certainty, in fact, if anyone had bothered to do their homework) of the station being camerad-up was what allowed the footage to be used in the first place. That degree of amateurism was something that was far from new to a couple of the participants - a fact which, whilst it might not have led to their getting lifted the first time around, may well have been a factor in their being on the radar in this instance....


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## Red Sky (May 22, 2018)

past caring said:


> What about the bloke who turned state? My recollection was that his touting wasn't enough to avoid being charged, or have I misremembered that? As for the state surveillance, whilst the CCTV may have been of some importance in securing convictions, it's equally the case that the participants' blyth disregard of the likelihood (certainty, in fact, if anyone had bothered to do their homework) of the station being camerad-up was what allowed the footage to be used in the first place. That degree of amateurism was something that was far from new to a couple of the participants - a fact which, whilst it might not have led to their getting lifted the first time around, may well have been a factor in their being on the radar in this instance....



Are you saying that one of those charged turned state witness in that trial? Not sure that's true.


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## past caring (May 22, 2018)

Read the post properly.


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## stethoscope (May 22, 2018)

Good to see you @past caring.


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## Red Sky (May 22, 2018)

past caring said:


> What about the bloke who turned state?



What have I misread ?


----------



## mx wcfc (May 22, 2018)

Red About Town - I used to know the Harlow lot, and once spent a night drinking with RA at the White Horse.

Do I qualify for that badge, and, if so, where do I send my wonga?


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## Pickman's model (May 22, 2018)

past caring said:


> What about the bloke who turned state? My recollection was that his touting wasn't enough to avoid being charged, or have I misremembered that? As for the state surveillance, whilst the CCTV may have been of some importance in securing convictions, it's equally the case that the participants' blyth disregard of the likelihood (certainty, in fact, if anyone had bothered to do their homework) of the station being camerad-up was what allowed the footage to be used in the first place. That degree of amateurism was something that was far from new to a couple of the participants - a fact which, whilst it might not have led to their getting lifted the first time around, may well have been a factor in their being on the radar in this instance....


the police were aware in advance that something might happen, this was in an intel briefing in the discovery. The police also harassed antifa people and their friends round the demo earlier in the day. I'll get back to you about it touting bit, I'll have to ask someone to confirm my recollection. Parts of the incident were amateurish - parts were blackly comic - and if there'd been the consideration given I'm sure the people involved would have acted with more circumspection.


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## Pickman's model (May 22, 2018)

past caring said:


> Read the post properly.


Good to see you back BTW, you've been missed


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## Red About Town (May 22, 2018)

From the RA social media account today.

Red Action was recently invited, via this page, to speak at a meeting of anti-fascist activists in London hosted by the Solstar Sports Association. Below is a brief summary and estimate of the meeting from one of the former Red Action activists who was in the audience...

"Interesting meeting. Solstar Sports Association are sound, with a good working class base and militant outlook at leadership level. They've had some difficulties with the middle class Left (who tried to insist on 'safe spaces' in a boxing club!) and have, effectively, excluded them.	

"Some good working class activists in attendance including building workers & railway workers. Our speaker talked about Red Action's work in the Islington area ('the early years') and, clearly, this is still held in high regard by (very) young and experienced activists alike.

"There was a frank discussion (including some good contributions from the audience) on anti-fascism going forward with the following themes emerging, not really prompted by us: The Left has isolated itself from the working class; political correctness, dogma and identity politics are a serious threat; 'open borders' and 'freedom of movement' a problem for some; there is no possibility of honest discussion on the Left; the working class is up for grabs and can be influenced by the Right or the progressive forces. 

"The discussion constantly returned to topics that are complete taboo in Lefty circles: various problems with immigration, even fascism within the immigrant communities. Very noticeable that experience is showing, people who have been around for a while have worked things out. Not suggesting that everyone agreed on all these points; there were some younger elements, active in the Labour Party, who don't know what betrayal is all about yet. Still very friendly towards us though. I was a bit surprised about that but I think we sometimes underestimate our standing and influence.

"We'll be staying in touch with Solstar."


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## Red About Town (May 22, 2018)

mx wcfc said:


> Red About Town - I used to know the Harlow lot, and once spent a night drinking with RA at the White Horse.
> 
> Do I qualify for that badge, and, if so, where do I send my wonga?



 When for sale, I will let you know the details.


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## past caring (May 22, 2018)

stethoscope said:


> Good to see you @past caring.


 Thanks - who did you used to be? I know name changes aren't necessarily on a whim, so PM if need be....


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## past caring (May 22, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> Good to see you back BTW, you've been missed



Thanks. On the touting bit - my recollection is that there was one individual who gave a statement in return for reduced charges. Though it is also my recollection that the statement may not have been key in securing the others' convictions - which would account for charges being reduced as opposed to dropped. Also, is my memory right that more ended up charged than were initially lifted?


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## Red Sky (May 22, 2018)

Red About Town said:


> From the RA social media account today.
> 
> Red Action was recently invited, via this page, to speak at a meeting of anti-fascist activists in London hosted by the Solstar Sports Association. Below is a brief summary and estimate of the meeting from one of the former Red Action activists who was in the audience...
> 
> ...



Interesting meeting. AFN and IWCA/RA/AFA  sharing a platform. Along with Danish anti fascists.


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## Pickman's model (May 22, 2018)

past caring said:


> Thanks. On the touting bit - my recollection is that there was one individual who gave a statement in return for reduced charges. Though it is also my recollection that the statement may not have been key in securing the others' convictions - which would account for charges being reduced as opposed to dropped. Also, is my memory right that more ended up charged than were initially lifted?


Yeh I think that's the case, and will try to give you a definitive answer tomorrow

(edited to make it clear what i was replying to)


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## redsquirrel (May 23, 2018)

stethoscope said:


> Good to see you @past caring.





Pickman's model said:


> Good to see you back BTW, you've been missed


Yep, good to see you past caring. And just in time for the release of the new Mekons album.


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## past caring (May 23, 2018)

Thanks - and the new Neko Case!


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## The39thStep (May 23, 2018)

past caring Hi mate. How are you ?


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## past caring (May 23, 2018)

Doing good....you? Will message you later mate.


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## danny la rouge (May 23, 2018)

past caring said:


> Doing good....you? Will message you later mate.


Nice to see you.


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## Pickman's model (May 23, 2018)

past caring said:


> What about the bloke who turned state? My recollection was that his touting wasn't enough to avoid being charged, or have I misremembered that? As for the state surveillance, whilst the CCTV may have been of some importance in securing convictions, it's equally the case that the participants' blyth disregard of the likelihood (certainty, in fact, if anyone had bothered to do their homework) of the station being camerad-up was what allowed the footage to be used in the first place. That degree of amateurism was something that was far from new to a couple of the participants - a fact which, whilst it might not have led to their getting lifted the first time around, may well have been a factor in their being on the radar in this instance....


i couldn't recall anyone doing what you suggest, so i asked someone else familiar with the case - neither of us can think of anyone who 'turned state'. e2a: more people were charged than appeared ultimately in court, but i'm not sure how many were picked up after the event, i can think of at least one.


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## past caring (May 23, 2018)

Cheers. I'm pretty sure there was something on here at the time regarding someone giving a statement....will see if I can find it.

Only 6 lifted on the day, but significantly more later though not all of those were charged (iirc 30 later lifted with 15 - including the original 6 - charged).

Anyway, more importantly, as we're agreed it was a bit of a mess, the question is why? As in why that came about - interested in your thoughts?


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## Red Sky (May 23, 2018)

past caring said:


> Cheers. I'm pretty sure there was something on here at the time regarding someone giving a statement....will see if I can find it.
> 
> Only 6 lifted on the day, but significantly more later though not all of those were charged (iirc 30 later lifted with 15 - including the original 6 - charged).
> 
> Anyway, more importantly, as we're agreed it was a bit of a mess, the question is why? As in why that came about - interested in your thoughts?



There's a big difference between making a statement in interview and turning Queens. One is unadvisable, the other inexcusable.


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## Pickman's model (May 23, 2018)

past caring said:


> Cheers. I'm pretty sure there was something on here at the time regarding someone giving a statement....will see if I can find it.
> 
> Only 6 lifted on the day, but significantly more later though not all of those were charged (iirc 30 later lifted with 15 - including the original 6 - charged).
> 
> Anyway, more importantly, as we're agreed it was a bit of a mess, the question is why? As in why that came about - interested in your thoughts?


oh jesus - where to start...

yeh, the cctv at the station was a schoolboy error. as was hanging round in pubs for ages. and having people along who weren't used to that sort of thing. 

information should have been requested and plans drawn up before. having everyone on the platform was asking for trouble. and after the hassle people had had in central london - where it was specifically people associated with the group who were being targeted - people should have stepped back and asked why this was happening then. while no one wants to let things go ahead, sometimes it's better just to let things pass and get information than go mob handed into a clusterfuck.


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## past caring (May 23, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> There's a big difference between making a statement in interview and turning Queens. One is unadvisable, the other inexcusable.



True - in a 'moral' sense. But when one considers that giving a statement is inevitably a consequence of not being able to stand up to pressure, you never know where it will end. At a minimum it confirms your own participation and potentially that of others. Further, given that even the dogs in the street know 'no comment' to be the only sensible option, you then have an immediate problem if, as here, more than one person gives a statement. Unless pre-prepared and a collaborative effort, it's almost inevitable that each statement will give the lie to all the others.

The cumulative effect - particularly when one considers that if charges were eventually brought they would inevitably involve a conspiracy element - may well end up being of little practical difference to turning state's...


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## Red Sky (May 23, 2018)

past caring said:


> True - in a 'moral' sense. But when one considers that giving a statement is inevitably a consequence of not being able to stand up to pressure, you never know where it will end. At a minimum it confirms your own participation and potentially that of others. Further, given that even the dogs in the street know 'no comment' to be the only sensible option, you then have an immediate problem if, as here, more than one person gives a statement. Unless pre-prepared and a collaborative effort, it's almost inevitable that each statement will give the lie to all the others.
> 
> The cumulative effect - particularly when one considers that if charges were eventually brought they would inevitably involve a conspiracy element - may well end up being of little practical difference to turning state's...



As you say "No comment" is always the way to go.


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## Joe Reilly (May 23, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> Interesting meeting. AFN and IWCA/RA/AFA  sharing a platform. Along with Danish anti fascists.



Turns out the proposed 'AFA' speaker was not actually from AFA at all. Tied in with both Labour and Hope not Hate apparently. Which sorts of make you wonder what he would have come out with? And what motivated him to chance it?


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## Red Sky (May 23, 2018)

Joe Reilly said:


> Turns out the proposed 'AFA' speaker was not actually from AFA at all. Tied in with both Labour and Hope not Hate apparently. Which sorts of make you wonder what he would have come out with? And what motivated him to chance it?



I thought Mr O'Shea was the AFA speaker? Was there supposed to be another?


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## Joe Reilly (May 23, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> I thought Mr O'Shea was the AFA speaker? Was there supposed to be another?



Someone was invited, and put themselves forward to speak specifically on AFA's behalf, which wouldn't have been a problem (as the RA reference was largely to the period prior to AFA being launched) except that as it turns out he wasn't from AFA at all.


----------



## Red Sky (May 23, 2018)

Joe Reilly said:


> Someone was invited, and put themselves forward to speak specifically on AFA's behalf, which wouldn't have been a problem (as the RA reference was largely to the period prior to AFA being launched) except that as it turns out he wasn't from AFA at all.



Odd.


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## Magnus McGinty (May 23, 2018)

Well whoever invited them must have believed so.


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## MrSpikey (May 24, 2018)

past caring said:


> Thanks. On the touting bit - my recollection is that there was one individual who gave a statement in return for reduced charges.



None of those charged cooperated with the prosecution, and all those who went to trial faced the same conspiracy charge.

One individual has their charge dropped before the trial, after submitting medical statements to the court (and with the CCTV showing they were not on the platform at the relevant time). Maybe that's what you are thinking of?


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## Nice one (May 24, 2018)

There was also one young lad who separated himself off post-arrest and wouldn't have anything to do with the other defendants - i think his dad paid for a private solicitor. I don't think he was a liability to any of the other defendants - this is going from (very hazy) memory.

What would have happened is post-arrest they would have all been interviewed, plus further down the process their repective solicitors would have written a witness statement on behalf their client - this essentially sets out your defence for the CPS. You don't have to do one but it's necessary to gain access to all the unused material (evidence the cps have but wouldn't be used in court as part of the prosecution).

I can't think of any time during the trial defendants interviews/witness statements were used against other defendants on trial, so i don't think it was ever an issue. Wasn't there everyday at both trials so don't hold me to it.


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## past caring (May 24, 2018)

Possibly. As I've said, it's only from my recollection of what was said on here at the time - which could have been a little off the mark.

That said, the thing was a fucking shambles wasn't it? More on which later....

ETA: this was in reply to MrSpikey. The thing Nice One has mentioned about one of them going solo was really what I had in mind.....


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## LDC (May 24, 2018)

Maybe people should be a bit more careful in throwing accusations like grassing about?


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## past caring (May 24, 2018)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Maybe people should be a bit more careful in throwing accusations like grassing about?


 Are you after an apology? 

Happy to say I was wrong to say tout. It wasn't necessary. This lot were such a fucking shower it wasn't required.


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## The39thStep (May 24, 2018)

I remember a conversation I had with a former poster on here who reckoned that there were over 2000 pages of CPS evidence using social media extracts and messages extracted from phones


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## Pickman's model (May 24, 2018)

The39thStep said:


> I remember a conversation I had with a former poster on here who reckoned that there were over 2000 pages of CPS evidence using social media extracts and messages extracted from phones


i saw the piles of phone messages provided in discovery and it really was fuck loads over a long period of time.


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## Pickman's model (May 24, 2018)

past caring said:


> Are you after an apology?
> 
> Happy to say I was wrong to say tout. It wasn't necessary. This lot were such a fucking shower it wasn't required.


not to mention that one mark kennedy was doing enough touting surveillance anyway

while there were, er, issues with the way things happened in welling, it's to my mind unfair to put the boot in as you and joe reilly have. antifa had a number of successes and near successes and shouldn't be damned on the basis of welling. for example, dave hann noted that antifa fought the bpp and held off their development as serious contenders for the streets abandoned by the bnp. antifa tried having a pop at the red white and blue - offhand i can't think of a time when other anti-fascist organisations tried something similar outside cities. there's the yorkshire incident mentioned in the vice article. 

all british anti-fascist groups over the last couple of decades have operated in the shadow of afa's activity in the 1980s and 1990s. there's no denying that afa and red action were highly organised and astute groups. pretty much any group is going to suffer by  comparison! i remember waterloo, the attempt on the bnp agm - also in '92 - the march round the east end, being outside york hall with afa, must have been the night of the local elections in '94, running round holloway looking for fascists near the bloody sunday march in '98 or so... none of the subsequent organisations, no platform, antifa, the afn, have managed to repeat the successes of afa.

nevertheless, i think that the people who've gone out to oppose the fash and some of whom have paid with their liberty for doing so shouldn't be done down on the basis of one flawed outing, even if it was a catastrophic fuck up.


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## The39thStep (May 24, 2018)

The BPP were an irrelevancy imo


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## Pickman's model (May 24, 2018)

The39thStep said:


> The BPP were an irrelevancy imo


when the big boys were off the streets you had to make do with what there was.


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## past caring (May 24, 2018)

Pickman's model - I'll come back to this in substance later as I'm posting from my phone, but I'm glad you posted it. I had (and have) no intention of 'doing down' in the sense of wanting to besmirch others in terms of supposed personal failings or character defects.

I only know one of the participants to any real extent (one of the others I'd met in passing a couple of times) and I would be - and was- happy to have him stood beside me in a tight spot. But it's not about that.....

Your honesty about what went wrong in practice is appreciated - and useful. But when I asked the question, I was really driving at the issue of what went wrong (or was wrong from the outset) politically that allowed/enabled those things to occur.

I'm not interested in 'we in RA and AFA were better' cock-waving nonsense but in what lessons are to be learned. As you say, no-one likes to see anti-facists doing jail - all the more so when it's unncessary and for only minimal (if any) political gain....

Lastly, Joe can speak for himself, but I doubt his motivations in this are any different to mine.


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## The39thStep (May 24, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> when the big boys were off the streets you had to make do with what there was.


True if anti fascism is only just looking for a fash to attack rather than building any form of working class resistance


----------



## Pickman's model (May 24, 2018)

past caring said:


> Pickman's model - I'll come back to this in substance later as I'm posting from my phone, but I'm glad you posted it. I had (and have) no intention of 'doing down' in the sense of wanting to besmirch others in terms of supposed personal failings or character defects.
> 
> I only know one of the participants to any real extent (one of the others I'd met in passing a couple of times) and I would be - and was- happy to have him stood beside me in a tight spot. But it's not about that.....
> 
> ...


tbh afaics the main lessons to be learned are to better know the area in which you're going to be operating, to avoid alcohol in advance, to have a plan b and to know the people you're with, so that everyone's on the same page if things go tits up. in addition, having an understanding of how the forces of darkness will proceed, what courses of action they're likely to take, will stand you in good stead - the mass arrests a few years ago in whitechapel show that the lessons of mayday 2001 and the student protests hadn't been fully taken on board - that the police can and will kettle large numbers of people and arrest a couple of hundred to achieve their aim. 

i think that what was wrong politically was that apart from the rwb pretty much everything was reactive: that unlike e.g the march round the east end or the unity carnivals antifa focussed almost exclusively on responding to events. if you're always responding to things you can't push a second proactive track to your activity. there was no strategic goal, no way really to measure progress or success unless by driving other groups off the street. and when these were often groups like the bpp sure it's a victory but what does it lead onto?


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## Pickman's model (May 24, 2018)

The39thStep said:


> True if anti fascism is only just looking for a fash to attack rather than building any form of working class resistance


yeh. this is something i was hinting at in the post i wrote while you submitted that. there was an overemphasis on tactical and short-term activity and a failure to invest, if you will, in the future by doing the legwork to help develop a culture of resistance to racism and fascism in communities.


----------



## LDC (May 24, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> ...by doing the legwork to help develop a culture of resistance to racism and fascism in communities.



Indeed, easier said than done though.

There's a structural problem in that anti-fascist activist/street activity groups are probably not the grouping type that is suited to developing this longer term culture in communities, workplaces, and neighborhoods. (Need both obviously...)

Fucking long term project that requires people in be rooted and committed to areas and collective 'normal' workplaces rather than moving about loads and being self employed or doing co-op/hippie work or being an academic.

Quick question, what year was that big court case?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 24, 2018)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Indeed, easier said than done though.
> 
> There's a structural problem in that anti-fascist activist/street activity groups are probably not the grouping type that is suited to developing this longer term culture in communities, workplaces, and neighborhoods. (Need both obviously...)
> 
> ...


quick answer 2011


----------



## Red Sky (May 24, 2018)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Indeed, easier said than done though.
> 
> There's a structural problem in that anti-fascist activist/street activity groups are probably not the grouping type that is suited to developing this longer term culture in communities, workplaces, and neighborhoods. (Need both obviously...)
> 
> ...



That's really the job of the whole Left.

 Anti fascism is a specialised and reactive activity.


----------



## Red Sky (May 24, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> quick answer 2011



Remarkably inconvenient timing as it happened.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 24, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> Remarkably inconvenient timing as it happened.


yeh that and the next 18 months, 2 years weren't the highest of lights of my life.


----------



## LDC (May 24, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> That's really the job of the whole Left.



Innit, something the left (mostly) fails at sadly.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 24, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> That's really the job of the whole Left.
> 
> Anti fascism is a specialised and reactive activity.


yeh, i'd agree it's specialised and that much of it is reactive. but it makes sense on a several levels to work to spread a culture of resistance, in part on grounds of recruitment.


----------



## The39thStep (May 24, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> That's really the job of the whole Left.
> 
> Anti fascism is a specialised and reactive activity.


Best left to the experts eh?


----------



## Red Sky (May 24, 2018)

The39thStep said:


> Best left to the experts eh?



Yeah  , like plumbing.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (May 24, 2018)

There were an awful lot of experts at Cable Street then. It’d be nice to be able to pull those kinds of numbers. Which suggests that antifascism shouldn’t just be reactive.


----------



## LDC (May 24, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> There were an awful lot of experts at Cable Street then. It’d be nice to be able to pull those kinds of numbers. Which suggests that antifascism shouldn’t just be reactive.



Nobody has suggested that it only needs to be reactive at all have they?


----------



## Red Sky (May 24, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> There were an awful lot of experts at Cable Street then. It’d be nice to be able to pull those kinds of numbers. Which suggests that antifascism shouldn’t just be reactive.



It was reactive - to a planned march by the Blackshirts. It was an anti fascist counter mobilisation that drew its strength from existing left movements and locals.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (May 24, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> It was reactive - to a planned march by the Blackshirts.



You don't think that there might also have been a bit of anti-fascism going on more generally, at a community level back then?


----------



## Red Sky (May 24, 2018)

Fozzie Bear said:


> You don't think that there might also have been a bit of anti-fascism going on more generally, at a community level back then?



Meaning?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (May 24, 2018)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Nobody has suggested that it only needs to be reactive at all have they?



Red Sky did in post #6808 in response to you.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (May 24, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> Meaning?



That Cable Street was reactive, against a specific march - but the level and success of the reaction was down to a general community level anti-fascism at a cultural level.

ETA - I mean you have basically said this too, with your edit.

When you look at things being at a more community/cultural level you can't be thinking of specialists though. The attempted march through Clapton a few years back is a good example of locals not standing for Nazis marching through their community alongside activists. Probably.


----------



## LDC (May 24, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Red Sky did in post #6808 in response to you.



Ah, that wasn't how I read it. I took it to mean we need both reactive anti-fascism, and also a wider non-reactive cultural anti-fascist ethos. With the former being more the work for 'anti-fascists' and the later a bigger job for the left. And both feeding into each other.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (May 24, 2018)

The left having relevance amongst the working class at that time I’m sure was a huge help.


----------



## LDC (May 24, 2018)

Come on Magnus, you're being fed a line here....

Time for a gripe about safer spaces, sub-cultural ghettos, and the uselessness of activists nowadays surely...?


----------



## Red Sky (May 24, 2018)

Fozzie Bear said:


> That Cable Street was reactive, against a specific march - but the level and success of the reaction was down to a general community level anti-fascism at a cultural level.
> 
> ETA - I mean you have basically said this too, with your edit.
> 
> When you look at things being at a more community/cultural level you can't be thinking of specialists though. The attempted march through Clapton a few years back is a good example of locals not standing for Nazis marching through their community alongside activists. Probably.



Clapton?


----------



## Fozzie Bear (May 24, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> Clapton?



The aged bonehead Eddie and the polish nazis who wanted to march through Stamford Hill to protest against the Shomrim, but who ended up marching about 100 metres from the Lea Bridge Roundabout to Clapton station instead, verbally abused by an impressive array of Hackney's finest. With a more robust discussion on the cards were it not for the huge police escort.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (May 24, 2018)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Come on Magnus, you're being fed a line here....
> 
> Time for a gripe about safer spaces, sub-cultural ghettos, and the uselessness of activists nowadays surely...?



Thanks for covering that on my behalf.


----------



## Red Sky (May 24, 2018)

Fozzie Bear said:


> The aged bonehead Eddie and the polish nazis who wanted to march through Stamford Hill to protest against the Shomrim, but who ended up marching about 100 metres from the Lea Bridge Roundabout to Clapton station instead, verbally abused by an impressive array of Hackney's finest. With a more robust discussion on the cards were it not for the huge police escort.



I think people mobilised for that.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (May 24, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> I think people mobilised for that.



Just specialists?


----------



## Red Sky (May 24, 2018)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Just specialists?



No, but who is it that tells the general public where and when a fascist march is happening? They're not a weekly occurrence are they?


----------



## Fozzie Bear (May 24, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> No, but who is it that tells the general public where and when a fascist march is happening? They're not a weekly occurrence are they?



People found out about it in all sorts of ways. I found out about it through North London Antifa and Jewdas on twitter. But then I told my neighbours and other contacts in the area. Another U75 poster found out about it because he bumped into the counter demontration on the way back from the shops. It was in the local paper newsfeeds too.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 24, 2018)

Fozzie Bear said:


> That Cable Street was reactive, against a specific march - but the level and success of the reaction was down to a general community level anti-fascism at a cultural level.
> 
> ETA - I mean you have basically said this too, with your edit.
> 
> When you look at things being at a more community/cultural level you can't be thinking of specialists though. The attempted march through Clapton a few years back is a good example of locals not standing for Nazis marching through their community alongside activists. Probably.


Yeh. But AFAIK none of that translated into people from Clapton turning out elsewhere to oppose fascists, nice on the day but didn't lead on to anything


----------



## Fozzie Bear (May 24, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh. But AFAIK none of that translated into people from Clapton turning out elsewhere to oppose fascists, nice on the day but didn't lead on to anything



Well we can't know that but you're probably right. Having said that there was no attempt by specialists to recruit me or anyone else that I saw...


----------



## butchersapron (May 24, 2018)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Well we can't know that but you're probably right. Having said that there was no attempt by specialists to recruit me or anyone else that I saw...


Wasn't anti-fascism then.

Not unless the specialists certify you.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 24, 2018)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Well we can't know that but you're probably right. Having said that there was no attempt by specialists to recruit me or anyone else that I saw...


((((Fozzie Bear))))


----------



## butchersapron (May 24, 2018)

This thread was kicked off again as regards a discussion about the failures-  and not just practical - of anti-fascist specialists.

Is that just a failure of these particular anti-fascist specialists or the whole idea of anti-fascist specialists?


----------



## Red Sky (May 24, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> This thread was kicked off again as regards a discussion about the failures-  and not just practical - of anti-fascist specialists.
> 
> Is that just a failure of these particular anti-fascist specialists or the whole idea of anti-fascist specialists?



Have there been any successful organisations of anti fascist specialists that you can think of?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (May 24, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> Have there been any successful organisations of anti fascist specialists that you can think of?



Didn’t they also pull in wider numbers?


----------



## butchersapron (May 24, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> Have there been any successful organisations of anti fascist specialists that you can think of?


No.

I know of groups who have the sense to place anti-fascism within a wider political context and who would spit on the idea of anti-fascist specialists who were successful in achieving anti-fascists ends.

If this self-pimpery continues i think the aim must soon be to _close the gyms.
_
So to answer the question, it's just these failed specialists, not other specialists. OK.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (May 24, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> ((((Fozzie Bear))))



It was a good day.


----------



## Red Sky (May 24, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> No.
> 
> I know of groups who have the sense to place anti-fascism within a wider political context and who would spit on the idea of anti-fascist specialists who were successful in achieving anti-fascists ends.
> 
> ...



So "Anti Fascist Action" , the "43 Group" etc etc don't fit your definition of specialist groups?


----------



## Red Sky (May 24, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Didn’t they also pull in wider numbers?



Of course. But that's not a unique M.O is it ?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (May 24, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> So "Anti Fascist Action" , the "43 Group" etc etc don't fit your definition of specialist groups?



You can’t describe either of those as simply ‘reactive’ either. They took the initiative and put the opposition on the back foot, organised their own events/marches etc that pulled in wider numbers.


----------



## butchersapron (May 24, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> So "Anti Fascist Action" , the "43 Group" etc etc don't fit your definition of specialist groups?


They clearly fit yours and your own self-image - so we're trapped there forever. No other way of approaching anti-fascism other than by specialists doing specialist stuff, fucking it up, getting nicked then doing specialist prison-support. 

And no, i don't think they fit a definition of specialist groups anyway - the 43 group would be closest to that simply due to the training and proximity to the war and the pre-war battles.

Tell me, what do you mean by specialist?


----------



## Red Sky (May 24, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> You can’t describe either of those as simply ‘reactive’ either. They took the initiative and put the opposition on the back foot, organised their own events/marches etc that pulled in wider numbers.



I think we're talking at cross purposes . They are reactive in the sense that without organised fascists they wouldn't need to exist. Of course reactive anti fascism can be pro active.


----------



## Red Sky (May 24, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> They clearly fit yours and your own self-image - so we're trapped there forever. No other way of approaching anti-fascism other than by specialists doing specialist stuff, fucking it up, getting nicked then doing specialist prison-support.
> 
> And no, i don't think they fit a definition of specialist groups anyway - the 43 group would be closest to that simply due to the training and proximity to the war and the pre-war battles.
> 
> Tell me, what do you mean by specialist?



Getting together with like minded people to focus on a single activity. Like Acorn would be "specialists" in the field of housing issues.


----------



## butchersapron (May 24, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> Getting together with like minded people to focus on a single activity. Like Acorn would be "specialists" in the field of housing issues.


This is an utterly worthless use of specialist.


----------



## butchersapron (May 24, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> Getting together with like minded people to focus on a single activity. Like Acorn would be "specialists" in the field of housing issues.


ACORN who allowed a green councillor BTL landlord to join and guide their actions. That's the problem with selling yourself as specialists.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (May 24, 2018)

From a 43 Group leaflet.

We surely don't need to go into AFA and Cable Street Beat, exhibitions for schools, Unity Carnival, excellent magazines, benefit albums etc.


----------



## Red Sky (May 24, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> This is an utterly worthless use of specialist.



Do you find this approach helps you much in life?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (May 24, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> I think we're talking at cross purposes . They are reactive in the sense that without organised fascists they wouldn't need to exist. Of course reactive anti fascism can be pro active.



Furthermore, the politics of Red Action that consistently argued that you can’t just beat back the far right, you then have to fill that political space that you’ve created. 
What’s wrong with that analysis? So many on the left ignore it and then go onto their pet projects of *bites lip* ... almost there LynnDoyleCooper


----------



## Red Sky (May 24, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Furthermore, the politics of Red Action that consistently argued that you can’t just beat back the far right, you then have to fill that political space that you’ve created.
> What’s wrong with that analysis? So many on the left ignore it and then go onto their pet projects of *bites lip* ... almost there LynnDoyleCooper



But also presumably that organised fascism needed to be combatted by other means alongside building up a leftist alternative.


----------



## Red Sky (May 24, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> ACORN who allowed a green councillor BTL landlord to join and guide their actions. That's the problem with selling yourself as specialists.



Even in your parlous state does the above seem to make any sense?


----------



## butchersapron (May 24, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> Do you find this approach helps you much in life?


Do i find that pointing out that you're using a term - a term with a real long and very definite history on the left - in a way that doesn't really correspond to accepted historical use to be of any help in clarifying what a discussion centrally involving the concept is about? Well, yes and no - depends how passive aggressive you choose to be with it. In _my life_, no because it's not very important is it?


----------



## butchersapron (May 24, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> Even in your parlous state does the above seem to make any sense?


It makes perfect sense. What on earth are you on about?


----------



## Red Sky (May 24, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> Do i find that pointing out that you're using a term with a real long and very definite history on the left in a way that doesn't really correspond to accepted  historical use to be of any help in clarifying what a discussion centrally involving the concept is about? Well, yes and no - depends how passive aggressive you choose to be with it. In _my life_, no because it's not very important is it?



Probably not as well versed in leftist dogma as you that's true. I said "specialised" in any case not "specialist".


----------



## butchersapron (May 24, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> Probably not as well versed in leftist dogma as you that's true. I said "specialised" in any case not "specialist".


And you then went on to offer an extended  defence of the idea of specialists. Anti-fascist specialists.


----------



## Red Sky (May 24, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> And you then went on to offer an extended  defence of the idea of specialists. Anti-fascist specialists.



Of which history supplies us with many useful examples.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (May 24, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> But also presumably that organised fascism needed to be combatted by other means alongside building up a leftist alternative.



Of course. But it can never just be about having a ruck. Fun day out and all, but what’s the end goal?


----------



## butchersapron (May 24, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> Of which history supplies us with many useful examples.


So why say that you meant specialised and not specialistion? What does this gain you?

And again, what is this specialisation? Is it self-certifying? How do you judge it - by how much you raise for the prison support fund? What is its basis for proclamations of special-hood? What about non-specialists - they're not recognised as anti-fascist by definition in this model are they. So most people at Cable street weren't anti-fascists.


----------



## Red Sky (May 24, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Of course. But it can never just be about having a ruck. Fun day out and all, but what’s the end goal?



A network of self sustaining autonomous tree villages of course.


----------



## Red Sky (May 24, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> So why say that you meant specialised and not specialistion? What does this gain you?
> 
> And again, what is this specialisation? Is it self-certifying? How do you judge it - by how much you raise for the prison support fund? What is its basis for proclamations of special-hood? What about non-specialists - they're not recognised as anti-fascist by definition in this model are they. So most people at Cable street weren't anti-fascists.



Again - does this (increasingly clumsy) approach get you anywhere much in life?


----------



## butchersapron (May 24, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> Again - does this (increasingly clumsy) approach get you anywhere much in life?


Why are you doing this? It speaks of total failure to understand what's at issue here - politically - beyond an infantile self-hero-isation.


----------



## Red Sky (May 24, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> So why say that you meant specialised and not specialistion? What does this gain you?
> 
> And again, what is this specialisation? Is it self-certifying? How do you judge it - by how much you raise for the prison support fund? What is its basis for proclamations of special-hood? What about non-specialists - they're not recognised as anti-fascist by definition in this model are they. So most people at Cable street weren't anti-fascists.



To take this to pieces.  Nobody is talking about who is a "real anti fascist" outside your fevered imagination. 

The question  is, is there a role for organisations who focus on combatting the far right? Whatever tactics , including mass mobilisation, that they use.


----------



## butchersapron (May 24, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> To take this to pieces.  Nobody is talking about who is a "real anti fascist" outside your fevered imagination.
> 
> The question  is, is there a role for organisations who focus on combatting the far right? Whatever tactics , including mass mobilisation, that they use.


I didn't mention 'real anti-fascists' - that's your imagination running overtime, not mine. You clearly outlined a position then defended it - that is, anti-fascism is a specialist activity - ignoring what this means as regards definitions of _who _is anti-fascist, never mind _what_.

The question i would have to put to you is what basis any such organisation might be formed on - specialists?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 24, 2018)

Anti-fascist groups are specialists, in that to fight fascism you need people with a range of skills bringing their skills to bear on a particular political and practical problem. People who can research, write leaflets, speak in public, design stickers, designing websites etc as necessary as those who can fight. Finding information on fascists is perhaps easier than it was, but it's still a time consuming business. That's not to say only specialists are needed: but that it's a political project to persuade as much as if not more so than a purely pugilistick one, as there's a need to build something positive not simply win fights.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (May 24, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> A network of self sustaining autonomous tree villages of course.



With conspiraloons for neighbours. So we need some politics too rather than a mish mash of people ‘opposing fascism’. As otherwise, all we’re doing is protecting the political centre from the far right.


----------



## past caring (May 24, 2018)

"Everyone has their part to play."


----------



## The39thStep (May 24, 2018)

Has anyone seen that very embarrassing video on YouTube , The Battle  of Seven Oaks , where some modern day reactive specialists end up looking like a bunch of Jessie's by some middle class Generation Id types and some bloke who thinks by dressing in the right gear makes him look hard?


----------



## past caring (May 24, 2018)

I have now. Ffs.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 24, 2018)

..


----------



## Red Sky (May 24, 2018)

The39thStep said:


> Has anyone seen that very embarrassing video on YouTube , The Battle  of Seven Oaks , where some modern day reactive specialists end up looking like a bunch of Jessie's by some middle class Generation Id types and some bloke who thinks by dressing in the right gear makes him look hard?



And...?? 

There are quite a lot of Anontifa types out there. While I'm not going to have a pop at anyone who's actually going to make the effort to get out there and have a go, their efforts are generally drunken and shambolic.  They tend to go in for inappropriate black block as well.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (May 24, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> And...??



And you don’t hand them a victory on a plate. Quite difficult to mingle and make decisions on what to do when you’ve already identified yourself by virtue of your costume though.


----------



## past caring (May 24, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> And...??&



Utterly embarrassing. Like much of the footage you see from US antifa, it only helps confirm the soft student stuff the far right likes to tell itself. Gives them confidence etc.


----------



## past caring (May 24, 2018)

Turned over by a bunch of blokes who wouldn't have looked out of place at a 1980s/90s Federation of Conservative Students gathering


----------



## Red Sky (May 24, 2018)

past caring said:


> Utterly embarrassing. Like much of the footage you see from US antifa, it only helps confirm the soft student stuff the far right likes to tell itself. Gives them confidence etc.



I'm not personally embarrassed by it. There's a lot of people out there doing 'Anti fascism'. If people who know better want to step up and offer guidance or training then please crack on.


----------



## Red Sky (May 24, 2018)

HS161 - UK

Apologies for the FB link but this is the kind of thing I'm on about.


----------



## butchersapron (May 24, 2018)

> There are quite a lot of Anontifa types out there. While I'm not going to have a pop at anyone who's actually going to make the effort to get out there and have a go, their efforts are generally drunken and shambolic.  They tend to go in for inappropriate black block as well.



Is this - Anontifa - a term in use within the expert community?


----------



## Red Sky (May 24, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> There are quite a lot of Anontifa types out there. While I'm not going to have a pop at anyone who's actually going to make the effort to get out there and have a go, their efforts are generally drunken and shambolic.  They tend to go in for inappropriate black block as well.



Is this - Anontifa - a term in use within the expert community?[/QUOTE]

I use it , you're welcome to pass it off as your own.


----------



## butchersapron (May 24, 2018)

Nah, not passing non certified stuff as own.


----------



## past caring (May 24, 2018)

What is it supposed to signify?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (May 24, 2018)

Anonymous types doing antifascism...??? (At a guess)


----------



## Red Sky (May 24, 2018)

past caring said:


> What is it supposed to signify?



It's a shorthand term for the 'Antifa' subculture (as distinct from the group under discussion a couple of pages ago). The subculture is pretty internet based and emerges from the leftish bits of Anonymous and Occupy. Tends to be very heavy on 'black block' imagery, pictures of knuckledusters with ACAB written on them etc etc and generally experiences a nasty shock when they meet the far right.


----------



## The Flying Pig (May 24, 2018)

As I have said many times before there is no way I am standing with those antifa tits they are soft as ripe plums and if I am confronted by fascists I want to be in a well organised group who have done their recon and know what the plan of action is, not be amongst uni, veggie types who have all the gear but no idea and run at the first sign of an attack by some Gen id dick heads. My last demo with those idiots was at Tower Hill where the "charge of the light brigade" ended with over 200 hundred kettled and arrested. From the video of the B of S it would appear nothing has been learnt in the five years since I last went to physically confront fascists.


----------



## The Flying Pig (May 24, 2018)

The Flying Pig said:


> As I have said many times before there is no way I am standing with those antifa tits they are soft as ripe plums and if I am confronted by fascists I want to be in a well organised group who have done their recon and know what the plan of action is, not be amongst uni, veggie types who have all the gear but no idea and run at the first sign of an attack by some Gen id dick heads. My last demo with those idiots was at Tower Hill where the "charge of the light brigade" ended with over 200 hundred kettled and arrested. From the video of the B of S it would appear nothing has been learnt in the five years since I last went to physically confront fascists.


I should add the last time I physically confronted fascists with the sterotypical Antifart types.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (May 24, 2018)

The Flying Pig said:


> As I have said many times before there is no way I am standing with those antifa tits they are soft as ripe plums and if I am confronted by fascists I want to be in a well organised group who have done their recon and know what the plan of action is, not be amongst uni, veggie types who have all the gear but no idea and run at the first sign of an attack by some Gen id dick heads. My last demo with those idiots was at Tower Hill where the "charge of the light brigade" ended with over 200 hundred kettled and arrested. From the video of the B of S it would appear nothing has been learnt in the five years since I last went to physically confront fascists.



On the plus side, those detained got some nice payouts for wrongful arrest. Not every day that happens.


----------



## Red Sky (May 24, 2018)

The Flying Pig said:


> I should add the last time I physically confronted fascists with the sterotypical Antifart types.



Last time you did anything at all you mean.


----------



## Red Sky (May 24, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> On the plus side, those detained got some nice payouts for wrongful arrest. Not every day that happens.



Yes rather regretting using experience and nimbleness to dodge that one.


----------



## The Flying Pig (May 25, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> Last time you did anything at all you mean.


If only you knew.....


----------



## Red About Town (May 27, 2018)

I came across the video on You Tube. First time I seen it since this documentary - 100% White - was first aired on C4 circa 2000.
Thought it would be of interest to some on here. I'm sure some of the contributors to this thread came across these 3 at some stage back in the day.


----------



## juice_terry (Jun 4, 2018)

Red About Town said:


> I came across the video on You Tube. First time I seen it since this documentary - 100% White - was first aired on C4 circa 2000.
> Thought it would be of interest to some on here. I'm sure some of the contributors to this thread came across these 3 at some stage back in the day.


Been removed [emoji52]

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk


----------



## Joe Reilly (Jun 5, 2018)

juice_terry said:


> Been removed [emoji52]
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk



It seems that even contributors to this thread must be protected from fascist contagion? Safe spaces and so on. Of course in the real world that across Europe the far-right are increasingly visible (indeed impossible to ignore) is entirely coincidental.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 5, 2018)

The Flying Pig said:


> From the video of the B of S it would appear nothing has been learnt in the five years since I last went to physically confront fascists.


how curious that the last time you went out there were these mass arrests but nothing on a similar scale since. please stay away.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jun 5, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> how curious that the last time you went out there were these mass arrests but nothing on a similar scale since. please stay away.





The Flying Pig said:


> I should add the last time I physically confronted fascists with the sterotypical Antifart types.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 5, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> <fart>


Is there a point there straining to get out?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jun 5, 2018)

Joe Reilly said:


> It seems that even contributors to this thread must be protected from fascist contagion? Safe spaces and so on. Of course in the real world that across Europe the far-right are increasingly visible (indeed impossible to ignore) is entirely coincidental.



Removed from YouTube which could be because the uploader removed it themselves or YouTube did for intellectual property violations.


----------



## Red Sky (Jun 5, 2018)

Joe Reilly said:


> It seems that even contributors to this thread must be protected from fascist contagion? Safe spaces and so on. Of course in the real world that across Europe the far-right are increasingly visible (indeed impossible to ignore) is entirely coincidental.



More likely to be a copyright issue surely?


----------



## The Flying Pig (Jun 6, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> how curious that the last time you went out there were these mass arrests but nothing on a similar scale since. please stay away.


Dong!!!! Wrong there have been mass arrests at demonstrations of anti fascists since I last attended amongst antifa. 
Are you always this childish with your remarks?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 6, 2018)

The Flying Pig said:


> Dong!!!! Wrong there have been mass arrests at demonstrations of anti fascists since I last attended amongst antifa.
> Are you always this childish with your remarks?


jesus mary and joseph, it looks like you fell out of the stupid tree and bashed your head on every branch.

did i say there had been no mass arrests since? er no. 

i said there had been nothing on a similar scale ie nothing on a scale of hundreds.

incidentally, that was london anti-fascists, part of the anti-fascist network, and not antifa. you're full of fail.


----------



## Red Sky (Jun 6, 2018)

The Flying Pig said:


> Dong!!!! Wrong there have been mass arrests at demonstrations of anti fascists since I last attended amongst antifa.
> Are you always this childish with your remarks?



Well there haven't been, not on that scale. That was the largest mass arrest in the Met's history. 

It was a gamble and it nearly worked . As it turns out there have been substantial pay outs to all those arrested. 

Which mass arrests are you talking about Flying Pig?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 6, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> Well there haven't been, not on that scale. That was the largest mass arrest in the Met's history.
> 
> It was a gamble and it nearly worked . As it turns out there have been substantial pay outs to all those arrested.
> 
> Which mass arrests are you talking about Flying Pig?


er the largest mass arrests since 1990 were the 600 or so fascists picked up the day of the bloody sunday march in 1993


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 6, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> Well there haven't been, not on that scale. That was the largest mass arrest in the Met's history.
> 
> It was a gamble and it nearly worked . As it turns out there have been substantial pay outs to all those arrested.
> 
> Which mass arrests are you talking about Flying Pig?


i've been racking my brains and i'm struggling to think of subsequent mass arrests. perhaps The Flying Pig will elaborate. or more likely not.


----------



## The Flying Pig (Jun 6, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> jesus mary and joseph, it looks like you fell out of the stupid tree and bashed your head on every branch.
> 
> did i say there had been no mass arrests since? er no.
> 
> ...


You are spreading misinformation, I will leave it there.


----------



## Red Sky (Jun 6, 2018)

The Flying Pig said:


> You are spreading misinformation, I will leave it there.



As opposed to saying there's been mass arrests of anti fascists that have never happened?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 6, 2018)

The Flying Pig said:


> You are spreading misinformation, I will leave it there.


Right. So the facts which can easily be verified are you claim misinformation. Utter tosh.


----------



## love detective (Jun 13, 2018)

_'the collapse of.....Anti-Fascist Action' _


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 13, 2018)

love detective said:


> _'the collapse of.....Anti-Fascist Action' _



yeh and not just that


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 13, 2018)

As I recall the No Platform Group  was shortlived and not exactly overburdoned with success even on its own very limited agenda and we've already catalogued the sorry demise of Antifa. Anyway re reading the blurb is sort of translates into although the BNP and the EDL were the biggest threat we had a go at some of the smaller groupings so we'll talk about that instead. I'd be interested in what they might suggest the tactics are against the TR/Gen-I/DFLA circus.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Jun 13, 2018)

The39thStep said:


> As I recall the No Platform Group  was shortlived and not exactly overburdoned with success even on its own very limited agenda and we've already catalogued the sorry demise of Antifa. Anyway re reading the blurb is sort of translates into although the BNP and the EDL were the biggest threat we had a go at some of the smaller groupings so we'll talk about that instead. I'd be interested in what they might suggest the tactics are against the TR/Gen-I/DFLA circus.



That is exactly the point. Rather than adjust tactics and strategies in order to address a new and significantly more substantial challenge and focus on where the main body of the far-right is actually grouped up, they opt to turn away from that reality in order to beat the bushes to flush out the puniest and wholly irrelevant elements of some by now obscure far-right sub-culture in order to justify their existence as 'militants'.

The under-pinning for all of it, is the fiction of the "sudden AFA collapse" with business left unfinished.

That Hope not Hate were happy to provide an 'AFA speaker' for a recent meeting in Hackney, and now this, suggests such brazen revisionism is being actively pursued and is not confined to discredited historians like Dave Renton and the occasional _No Retreat _devotee.


----------



## Red Sky (Jun 13, 2018)

Joe Reilly said:


> That is exactly the point. Rather than adjust tactics and strategies in order to address a new and significantly more substantial challenge and focus on where the main body of the far-right is actually grouped up, they opt to turn away from that reality in order to beat the bushes to flush out the puniest and wholly irrelevant elements of some by now obscure far-right sub-culture in order to justify their existence as 'militants'.
> 
> The under-pinning for all of it, is the fiction of the "sudden AFA collapse" with business left unfinished.
> 
> That Hope not Hate were happy to provide an 'AFA speaker' for a recent meeting in Hackney, and now this, suggests such brazen revisionism is being actively pursued and is not confined to discredited historians like Dave Renton and the occasional _No Retreat _devotee.



This is purporting to be an AFN talk and isn't.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Jun 13, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> This is purporting to be an AFN talk and isn't.


The American meeting?


----------



## Red Sky (Jun 13, 2018)

Joe Reilly said:


> The American meeting?



It looks like a tour.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jun 13, 2018)

Who is it then?


----------



## M Testa (Jun 13, 2018)

Plod: 
Alleged National Action leader 'urged neo-Nazi to kill Amber Rudd in terror attack', court hears


----------



## Arbeter Fraynd (Jun 14, 2018)

Joe Reilly said:


> That is exactly the point. Rather than adjust tactics and strategies in order to address a new and significantly more substantial challenge and focus on where the main body of the far-right is actually grouped up, they opt to turn away from that reality in order to beat the bushes to flush out the puniest and wholly irrelevant elements of some by now obscure far-right sub-culture in order to justify their existence as 'militants'.
> The under-pinning for all of it, is the fiction of the "sudden AFA collapse" with business left unfinished.



My experience, having been centrally involved in one local and short-lived 'No Platform' group, is that however sound the reasons were for AFA coming to an end it did seem like the radical resistance had disappeared, the ANL were up to their usual nonsense and there was a desperate need for something.  The city I was in was surrounded by BNP success stories, and the No Platform group was mostly people from the hunt sab/anarchist/squatter type scenes trying to work out what we could usefully do.  I did try to make contact with older AFA activists, which was successful in one town, but I didn't get any replies trying to get in touch with national AFA/IWCA PO boxes etc, maybe no-one was keeping them going by that point.  We did support local community activists with help with security etc.  But with the exception of one small town where we hooked up with a local older AFA group we weren't at all rooted in the communities where the BNP were doing well, and any attempt at an IWCA type activism would have been a joke.  I never wanted to be the main instigator of a local group and never thought I had all the answers, but no-one else was doing it locally and the BNP were doing scarily well nearby.

There were a few small successes I reckon - disrupting a couple of marches, exposing a BNP activist and leafleting his estate, helping an explicitly antifascist gig happen in a town where the BNP were active... but my analysis was we were a small group trying to work out what we could realistically do, pretty well informed, up for it and committed but not well positioned to actually do a lot of what needed doing.

But yeah, not sure how many useful lessons US Antifa could learn from that, other than the oft-repeated inability of activists to usefully work together and learn from/support each other over generations as things change...


----------



## Joe Reilly (Jun 15, 2018)

Arbeter Fraynd said:


> My experience, having been centrally involved in one local and short-lived 'No Platform' group, is that however sound the reasons were for AFA coming to an end it did seem like the radical resistance had disappeared, the ANL were up to their usual nonsense and there was a desperate need for something.



No matter how you cut it, once the far-right abandoned physical force in favour of the ballot box, directing working class communities hungry for change, back to the status quo is the very opposite of radical. 

Developing a plausible alternative both to the establishment parties and the far-right continues to be the task in hand. It is that "there is a desperate need for". That was the conclusion the AFA leadership arrived at in the late 1990's.  It was the right decision then and is still right decision two decades later.  

Can you honestly look at what is happening in Italy, Germany Austria, Denmark, Sweden, France (and almost certainly In the UK again post Brexit) and come to a different conclusion?


----------



## Red Sky (Jun 15, 2018)

Joe Reilly said:


> No matter how you cut it, once the far-right abandoned physical force in favour of the ballot box, directing working class communities hungry for change, back to the status quo is the very opposite of radical.
> 
> Developing a plausible alternative both to the establishment parties and the far-right continues to be the task in hand. It is that "there is a desperate need for". That was the conclusion the AFA leadership arrived at in the late 1990's.  It was the right decision then and is still right decision two decades later.
> 
> Can you honestly look at what is happening in Italy, Germany Austria, Denmark, Sweden, France (and almost certainly In the UK again post Brexit) and come to a different conclusion?



And when the far right adopt a twin (or even triple) track strategy?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 15, 2018)

Joe Reilly said:


> No matter how you cut it, once the far-right abandoned physical force in favour of the ballot box, directing working class communities hungry for change, back to the status quo is the very opposite of radical.
> 
> Developing a plausible alternative both to the establishment parties and the far-right continues to be the task in hand. It is that "there is a desperate need for". That was the conclusion the AFA leadership arrived at in the late 1990's.  It was the right decision then and is still right decision two decades later.
> 
> Can you honestly look at what is happening in Italy, Germany Austria, Denmark, Sweden, France (and almost certainly In the UK again post Brexit) and come to a different conclusion?


yeh. there is a need for a plausible alternative to the establishment and far-right parties, but the iwca seems to have foundered and i'd be interested in what lessons participants took from that from which any similarly inclined organization might learn


----------



## Arbeter Fraynd (Jun 15, 2018)

Joe Reilly said:


> No matter how you cut it, once the far-right abandoned physical force in favour of the ballot box, directing working class communities hungry for change, back to the status quo is the very opposite of radical.
> 
> Developing a plausible alternative both to the establishment parties and the far-right continues to be the task in hand. It is that "there is a desperate need for". That was the conclusion the AFA leadership arrived at in the late 1990's.  It was the right decision then and is still right decision two decades later.
> 
> Can you honestly look at what is happening in Italy, Germany Austria, Denmark, Sweden, France (and almost certainly In the UK again post Brexit) and come to a different conclusion?



I never saw it as either/or.  And am not convinced that the far-right ever exactly abandoned force and the street - the BNP mostly did although there were still street marches in the NW after they'd claimed they weren't going to do any more.  And while the BNP's electoral success was a big part of the story of far-right development in recent times, its not very long at all til you have a clear divide between UKIP and the EDL, ie the far-right clearly having more than one strategy and approach.

I have massive respect for AFA and a lot of sympathy for the politics that led to the IWCA but I don't really see the BNP in the late 90s as such a massive shift in the history of the far-right.  There has always been a need for reactive anti-fascism as well as broader politics and I don't think that changed.  Seeing as we're currently witnessing the biggest far-right street protests in many decades, alongside the collapse of both the BNP and UKIP, I don't think things have turned out quite as predicted by AFA leadership at the time.


----------



## TopCat (Jun 16, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh. there is a need for a plausible alternative to the establishment and far-right parties, but the iwca seems to have foundered and i'd be interested in what lessons participants took from that from which any similarly inclined organization might learn


From my recollection It was asserted that the failure of the IWCA was the fault of those who refused to join.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 16, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> And when the far right adopt a twin (or even triple) track strategy?


The stopped clock approach. Keep the powder dry.


----------



## Red Sky (Jun 16, 2018)

The39thStep said:


> The stopped clock approach. Keep the powder dry.



Does this mean anything? (Even to you)


----------



## TopCat (Jun 16, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> Does this mean anything? (Even to you)


Yeah. Don't revise failed tactics. Wait (however long) for the opposition to fit the frame then act.


----------



## Red Sky (Jun 16, 2018)

TopCat said:


> Yeah. Don't revise failed tactics. Wait (however long) for the opposition to fit the frame then act.



Bit of a straw man in that case.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jun 19, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh. there is a need for a plausible alternative to the establishment and far-right parties, but the iwca seems to have foundered and i'd be interested in what lessons participants took from that from which any similarly inclined organization might learn



They’re having to plough a furrow between the liberal and mentalist left and somehow appeal to the wc who are put off progressive politics because most of the people involved aren’t working class and don’t reflect their struggles. 
Perhaps wannabe activists might turn up to a left wing event and get to meet public-school educated pedants, or be accused of being a fascist and then tar the IWCA with the same brush? 
It’s complex but I do think they’re hampered by a great misconception that as the left generally aren’t working class, that the IWCA follow suit.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 19, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> They’re having to plough a furrow between the liberal and mentalist left and somehow appeal to the wc who are put off progressive politics because most of the people involved aren’t working class and don’t reflect their struggles.
> Perhaps wannabe activists might turn up to a left wing event and get to meet public-school educated pedants, or be accused of being a fascist and then tar the IWCA with the same brush?
> It’s complex but I do think they’re hampered by a great misconception that as the left generally aren’t working class, that the IWCA follow suit.


Hackney independent, which iirc split off the iwca, came within spitting distance of getting a councillor in haggerston, if memory serves, based on community work and canvassing. the will was there and if the structure had been resilient enough to last I think they might have got a councillor. I can't now see an electoral vehicle working in hackney due to decades of gentrification, as labour get almost returns despite their role promoting destruction of council estates. I'd be interested in hearing from people who had been in the iwca to hear what they think the prospects for electoral interventions are now: I'm not sure that's a conversation you're after having.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jun 19, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> Hackney independent, which iirc split off the iwca, came within spitting distance of getting a councillor in haggerston, if memory serves, based on community work and canvassing. the will was there and if the structure had been resilient enough to last I think they might have got a councillor. I can't now see an electoral vehicle working in hackney due to decades of gentrification, as labour get almost returns despite their role promoting destruction of council estates. I'd be interested in hearing from people who had been in the iwca to hear what they think the prospects for electoral interventions are now: I'm not sure that's a conversation you're after having.



That wasn’t your original question, which is what I responded to.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 19, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> That wasn’t your original question, which is what I responded to.


Yeh. I'm not persuaded, by your language, that you were actually in the iwca. So I don't think so much weight can be given to your response. I apologise if I'm wrong and if that's the case look forward to you sharing something of your experiences.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jun 20, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh. I'm not persuaded, by your language, that you were actually in the iwca. So I don't think so much weight can be given to your response. I apologise if I'm wrong and if that's the case look forward to you sharing something of your experiences.



I never claimed I was. Historically on here posters enquire about the demise of the IWCA in order to crow about it. Apols if that wasn’t what you were doing.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Jun 20, 2018)

My recollection is that Pickman’s was always quite supportive of Hackney IWCA/Independent.

I think there is still a role for that sort of work in Hackney if enough people had the time and energy for it. There are certainly enough housing struggles going on (Northwold, Stamford Hill and Lincoln Court estates all fighting infill) along with some high profile industrial disputes (Picture House and Hackney College). 

But I think he has a point about the changing class composition of the area and electoralism - we'd also need to bring in the baneful influence of Momentum and Corbyn's Labour into the equation - something that has regrettably even absorbed one former member of Hackney Independent.

We shouldn't forget that electoralism was only ever a tactic.


----------



## Red Sky (Jun 20, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I never claimed I was. Historically on here posters enquire about the demise of the IWCA in order to crow about it. Apols if that wasn’t what you were doing.



I thought they were still going? What was the business about the play park in Blackbird Leys about?


----------



## chilango (Jun 20, 2018)

My own view is that the one of the IWCA strategy's biggest weaknesses is that it far less effective in areas where identification as a "working class community" is absent. This can apply in areas with highly transient populations, areas where class composition is more mixed or where identification as m/c (accurately or not) is predominant, areas where other communities (faith, national origin, whatever) are predominant etc. etc.  

Most areas I've lived in the UK fall into one or more of these. I've only lived, and briefly, in one area where identification as a w/c community would resonate and even there it would  be contested by other notions of community.

This means that for many of us sympathetic to the IWCA it's a non-starter, or worse a blind alley.

Not for all of us though, I hope.


----------



## LDC (Jun 20, 2018)

Fozzie Bear said:


> My recollection is that Pickman’s was always quite supportive of Hackney IWCA/Independent.
> 
> I think there is still a role for that sort of work in Hackney if enough people had the time and energy for it. There are certainly enough housing struggles going on (Northwold, Stamford Hill and Lincoln Court estates all fighting infill) along with some high profile industrial disputes (Picture House and Hackney College).
> 
> ...



Think there's a role for that sort of work in many places, actually think that and things like Hastings Solidarity, Angry Workers, and the Essex lot need to be replicated across the country and be a key plank in a political strategy. They key is not only people getting this political direction and then working on it but, as you say, people having the time and energy (and staying power) for it.

E2A: Have started working on something along these lines where some of us live. Will post something on here sometime soon.


----------



## chilango (Jun 20, 2018)

chilango said:


> My own view is that the one of the IWCA strategy's biggest weaknesses is that it far less effective in areas where identification as a "working class community" is absent. This can apply in areas with highly transient populations, areas where class composition is more mixed or where identification as m/c (accurately or not) is predominant, areas where other communities (faith, national origin, whatever) are predominant etc. etc.
> 
> Most areas I've lived in the UK fall into one or more of these. I've only lived, and briefly, in one area where identification as a w/c community would resonate and even there it would  be contested by other notions of community.
> 
> ...



...and, yeah, I keep moving too.


----------



## LDC (Jun 20, 2018)

chilango said:


> ...and, yeah, I keep moving too.



I think it's easy to underestimate how much of a problem for effective political organizing that actually is! Same for work places and type of employment.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jun 20, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> I thought they were still going? What was the business about the play park in Blackbird Leys about?



They are still going. That doesn’t stop people demanding a post mortem though.


----------



## newbie (Jun 20, 2018)

chilango said:


> My own view is that the one of the IWCA strategy's biggest weaknesses is that it far less effective in areas where identification as a "working class community" is absent.


Even then it seems likely to require factors other that purely w/c identification. I grew up on a very stereotypical w/c estate (not so far from Blackbird Leys as it goes, I used to go there as a teenager), where my dad's been on the TA cttee for decades. They know they're working class but they return Tory councillors and MP every time they have an opportunity.  The chances that an appeal for solidarity on the basis of class oppression could take root strike me as miniscule.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 20, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> They are still going. That doesn’t stop people demanding a post mortem though.


going back to what joe reilly said:


Joe Reilly said:


> No matter how you cut it, once the far-right abandoned physical force in favour of the ballot box, directing working class communities hungry for change, back to the status quo is the very opposite of radical.
> 
> Developing a plausible alternative both to the establishment parties and the far-right continues to be the task in hand. It is that "there is a desperate need for". That was the conclusion the AFA leadership arrived at in the late 1990's.  It was the right decision then and is still right decision two decades later.
> 
> Can you honestly look at what is happening in Italy, Germany Austria, Denmark, Sweden, France (and almost certainly In the UK again post Brexit) and come to a different conclusion?


jr's central point is that there is a continuing desperate need for a plausible alternative to far right parties. despite its best efforts, the iwca hasn't managed to be that plausible alternative. if it's something which is still considered to be necessary, it is important to learn from those aspects of the iwca experience, the shared experiences of activists involved, to see what they'd do differently: and what they'd do the same again. not interested in bashing the iwca, there's no point.


----------



## LDC (Jun 20, 2018)

newbie said:


> The chances that an appeal for solidarity on the basis of class oppression could take root strike me as miniscule.



For sure, I think if that's the first line of discussion you take with people when talking to them you'll sound like something like...



Bur if you talk about bad landlords, exploitative bosses, working for a shit wage, communalizing of resources for the common good, helping each other out, etc. etc. you get a pretty good reception ime.


----------



## newbie (Jun 20, 2018)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I think if that's the first line of discussion you take with people when talking to them you'll sound like something like...
> 
> 
> 
> Bur if you talk about bad landlords, exploitative bosses, working for a shit wage, communalizing of resources for the common good, etc. etc. you get a pretty good reception ime.



fair enough but I'm posting on U75 and was trying to be concise.  

Even so, discussing the things you mention simply leads to eye rolling, words like 'scroungers' and 'immigrants' and a whole pile of Daily Mail attitudes.  I know I'm personally not cut out to be a community activist but I'm very doubtful it's fertile ground for any sort of leftist initiative.


----------



## LDC (Jun 20, 2018)

newbie said:


> fair enough but I'm posting on U75 and was trying to be concise.
> 
> Even so, discussing the things you mention simply leads to eye rolling, words like 'scroungers' and 'immigrants' and a whole pile of Daily Mail attitudes.  I know I'm personally not cut out to be a community activist but I'm very doubtful it's fertile ground for any sort of leftist initiative.



Yeah, depending on where you live it can do. I live in a poor area with a really high level of unemployment and immigration so those aren't likely to be the issues raised here (and if they are they usually are raised by people that emigrated here from India/Pakistan a generation ago).

But when these things come up they need to be discussed and argued against otherwise we're fucking doomed. And tbh they're not really very sophisticated lines to counter.

Community activist - fuck off, we're revolutionary militants organizing in our neighborhood.


----------



## newbie (Jun 20, 2018)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Community activist - fuck off, we're revolutionary militants organizing in our neighborhood.


that's just a modern take on it.  

Many years ago there was a magazine (remember them?) called Community Action where such things got discussed from a left/liberal professional pov (for advice workers & the like).  One of the enduring topics was treading the fine line between educate/agitate/organising politically within a community and becoming a social caseworker dealing with a succession of personal issues.  I've since read that Libdem style pavement politics often founders around burnout caused by trying to stem the flow of individuals needing help with benefits, landlords or whatever.  I guess that IWCA activists will have had to try to navigate through similar waters, as will revolutionary militants.


----------



## LDC (Jun 20, 2018)

newbie said:


> that's just a modern take on it.
> 
> Many years ago there was a magazine (remember them?) called Community Action where such things got discussed from a left/liberal professional pov (for advice workers & the like).  One of the enduring topics was treading the fine line between educate/agitate/organising politically within a community and becoming a social caseworker dealing with a succession of personal issues.  I've since read that Libdem style pavement politics often founders around burnout caused by trying to stem the flow of individuals needing help with benefits, landlords or whatever.  I guess that IWCA activists will have had to try to navigate through similar waters, as will revolutionary militants.



Yeah, to some extent it's old school political agitation, nowt new under the sun and that. It just now comes with the added complexity of doing it in a time when people have lost their traditional social/work support mechanisms so that stuff comes into it as well.

One of the uncomfortable issues we're having to face is exploitation of people (through landlordism largely) by some quite nasty individuals and gangs (often immigrants themselves), and how to deal with that. I think we're very quickly going to come up against things that require us to have some sort of quite forceful (even as possibility as much as actuality) response which is a frightening and complex position. 

E2A: Before it sounds like we've got something big going, we're a _very_ small number of people just making the first steps with this stuff after quite a lengthy process of slowly working some things out.


----------



## newbie (Jun 20, 2018)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Yeah, to some extent it's old school political agitation, nowt new under the sun and that. It just now comes with the added complexity of doing it in a time when people have lost their traditional social/work support mechanisms so that stuff comes into it as well.


yeah, how does organising within a geographic/economic community fit within the parameters of modern social network communities of interest where eg American alt-right memes are reproduced and localised here within hours and can gain more traction that anything local. e2a ?


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 20, 2018)

chilango said:


> My own view is that the one of the IWCA strategy's biggest weaknesses is that it far less effective in areas where identification as a "working class community" is absent. This can apply in areas with highly transient populations, areas where class composition is more mixed or where identification as m/c (accurately or not) is predominant, areas where other communities (faith, national origin, whatever) are predominant etc. etc.
> 
> Most areas I've lived in the UK fall into one or more of these. I've only lived, and briefly, in one area where identification as a w/c community would resonate and even there it would  be contested by other notions of community.
> 
> ...



I'm not sure that either the IWCA ,or other groups that have used a similar strategy,  have walked into an off the peg perfect area that has already self identified as a working class community. All the factors that you mention may well  be challenges but I'm not sure what evidence you have for leaping into the non starter/blind alley conclusion.


----------



## LDC (Jun 20, 2018)

newbie said:


> yeah, how does organising within a geographic/economic community fit within the parameters of modern social network communities of interest where eg American alt-right memes are reproduced and localised here within hours and can gain more traction that anything local.



Yeah, I think we're 'lucky' in that people are not 'connected' in that way here and that stuff (the alt-right scene in the US/UK) might as well be on fucking Mars for all most people that live in this area care or know.

We got some friendly criticism from comrades that our first newsletter looked a big lefty/SWP like (red and black, simple design, etc.) and that was a fair point. But in talking to people we're finding they mostly don't have a clue who the Labour Party are, let alone have seen an SWP leaflet at any point. They're more likely to mistake it for a pizza delivery flyer.

The other answer to that problem is being in it for the long haul - and I don't mean six months, I mean like 20 years plus really. The alt-right stuff will fade and mutate (I suspect) over time, and to some extent we beat it just by being around for longer and more consistently. And also there's no real alt-right presence here on the streets around here, if there was that might be a different problem for sure.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 20, 2018)

newbie said:


> yeah, how does organising within a geographic/economic community fit within the parameters of modern social network communities of interest where eg American alt-right memes are reproduced and localised here within hours and can gain more traction that anything local.


Social  media and modern social network communities can be used by anyone . In my experience community facebook groups are full of local issues that people want to discuss and want something to be done with occasional derails into things off the planet. Someone retweeting some gormless junk by Paul Joseph Watson doesn't mean that a local issue of say anti social behaviour or the local post office closing is going to go away.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 20, 2018)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Think there's a role for that sort of work in many places, actually think that and things like Hastings Solidarity, Angry Workers, and the Essex lot need to be replicated across the country and be a key plank in a political strategy. They key is not only people getting this political direction and then working on it but, as you say, people having the time and energy (and staying power) for it.
> 
> E2A: Have started working on something along these lines where some of us live. Will post something on here sometime soon.
> 
> View attachment 138527


my plans aren't so advanced so i'm starting up half brick solidarity


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 20, 2018)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Yeah, I think we're 'lucky' in that people are not 'connected' in that way here and that stuff (the alt-right scene in the US/UK) might as well be on fucking Mars for all most people that live in this area care or know.
> 
> We got some friendly criticism from comrades that our first newsletter looked a big lefty/SWP like (red and black, simple design, etc.) and that was a fair point. But in talking to people we're finding they mostly don't have a clue who the Labour Party are, let alone have seen an SWP leaflet at any point. They're more likely to mistake it for a pizza delivery flyer.
> 
> The other answer to that problem is being in it for the long haul - and I don't mean six months, I mean like 20 years plus really. The alt-right stuff will fade and mutate (I suspect) over time, and to some extent we beat it just by being around for longer and more consistently. And also there's no real alt-right presence here on the streets around here, if there was that might be a different problem for sure.


I follow South East Radical Media on Twitter , terrible name but they seem to be doing some good work locally.


----------



## chilango (Jun 20, 2018)

The39thStep said:


> ...but I'm not sure what evidence you have for leaping into the non starter/blind alley conclusion.



That's been my experience.


----------



## chilango (Jun 20, 2018)

The39thStep said:


> I'm not sure that either the IWCA ,or other groups that have used a similar strategy,  have walked into an off the peg perfect area that has already self identified as a working class community. All the factors that you mention may well  be challenges but I'm not sure what evidence you have for leaping into the non starter/blind alley conclusion.



...and to be clear I don't mean the IWCA model is a non-starter.

Just that in some areas it is.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 20, 2018)

chilango said:


> That's been my experience.


Ok, I'm not going to deny your experience but I'm interested in learning more about it if you like to share


----------



## chilango (Jun 20, 2018)

The39thStep said:


> Ok, I'm not going to deny your experience but I'm interested in learning more about it if you like to share



I don't want to get into the specifics right here/now.

But the barriers I mentioned above were central to those experiences of this strategy not working. At those times and in those places.

They're also now present where I live, and were I to find like-minded people in the community (obstacle number one that wasn't present in my earlier experiences)   isuspect we'd quickly run into similar problems...


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 20, 2018)

chilango said:


> I don't want to get into the specifics right here/now.
> 
> But the barriers I mentioned above were central to those experiences of this strategy not working. At those times and in those places.
> 
> They're also now present where I live, and were I to find like-minded people in the community (obstacle number one that wasn't present in my earlier experiences)   isuspect we'd quickly run into similar problems...


Well give it some thought mate because I'm sure your experiences are worth sharing at some point.


----------



## chilango (Jun 20, 2018)

The39thStep said:


> Well give it some thought mate because I'm sure your experiences are worth sharing at some point.



Maybe. Just don't want to dredge up too much from a not particularly great time in my life.


----------



## newbie (Jun 20, 2018)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> The other answer to that problem is being in it for the long haul - and I don't mean six months, I mean like 20 years plus really.


my alt-right reference was merely an easy, or lazy, example, based on a recent conversation with someone I know.  I hope it does vanish and in a lot less than 20 years.

As for 'being around for longer and more consistently', if you want credibility that's massively important. I've seen community activism come and go around here, the last immediately local  burst rather foundered when half the group went off to live elsewhere .   I felt old and cynical when they suddenly started buzzing around everything- tbh it felt a bit like with the Mormon missionaries that show up every now and then to bring the Word to us vulnerable natives, to save us from our ignorance because we're obviously blank canvasses crying out for our betters to dig us out of our mire- and then they left a year or two later.


----------



## newbie (Jun 20, 2018)

The39thStep said:


> Social  media and modern social network communities can be used by anyone . In my experience community facebook groups are full of local issues that people want to discuss and want something to be done with occasional derails into things off the planet. Someone retweeting some gormless junk by Paul Joseph Watson doesn't mean that a local issue of say anti social behaviour or the local post office closing is going to go away.


I get that, I was asking a question, "_how does organising_...?"  (although I do now realise I missed the question mark off the end)


----------



## chilango (Jun 20, 2018)

newbie said:


> As for 'being around for longer and more consistently', if you want credibility that's massively important. I've seen community activism come and go around here, the last burst rather foundered when half the group went off to live elsewhere .   I felt old and cynical when they suddenly started buzzing around everything- tbh it felt a bit like with the Mormon missionaries that show up every now and then to bring the Word to us vulnerable natives, to save us from our ignorance because we're obviously blank canvasses crying out for our betters to dig us out of our mire- and then they left a year or two later.



...and for those of us that do move around quite a lot this is a problem too. I'm rarely in a place for more than a few years. Nevermind the same house/streets/neighborhood. I think four years is the longest I've managed at an address in more than a quarter of a century. 

But I'm not alone in this. My current neighborhood is full of people doing just this.


----------



## newbie (Jun 20, 2018)

chilango said:


> ...and for those of us that do move around quite a lot this is a problem too. I'm rarely in a place for more than a few years. Nevermind the same house/streets/neighborhood. I think four years is the longest I've managed at an address in more than a quarter of a century.
> 
> But I'm not alone in this. My current neighborhood is full of people doing just this.


So's mine.  I've lived in this house for a long time but there's always been huge amounts of churn all around me.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 20, 2018)

newbie said:


> So's mine.  I've lived in this house for a long time but there's always been huge amounts of churn all around me.


teach you to live in a creamery


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jun 20, 2018)

newbie said:


> As for 'being around for longer and more consistently', if you want credibility that's massively important. I've seen community activism come and go around here, the last immediately local  burst rather foundered when half the group went off to live elsewhere .   I felt old and cynical when they suddenly started buzzing around everything- tbh it felt a bit like with the Mormon missionaries that show up every now and then to bring the Word to us vulnerable natives, to save us from our ignorance because we're obviously blank canvasses crying out for our betters to dig us out of our mire- and then they left a year or two later.



Churn is inevitable in any community or workplace. 

IME, the key is _active _engagement. If you have 100 people prepared to help for 30 minutes a week that's better than 10 self appointed leaders going full tilt until they move out/burn out. Speading the work does not ease the burden on the core but it does spread the work and it can develop new key players over time.   

The key to active engagement is a) to prioritise active engagement up front and from the start and not after 6 months. The work is for the community but it has to be by the community b) to ensure any action genuinely reflects the concerns of the community by listening to it. This might mean by the way that the priority issues are different to the priorities you have c) to accept the community as you find it and not how you'd like it to be. Both in terms of confidence and experience and also ideas.


----------



## LDC (Jun 20, 2018)

Smokeandsteam said:


> The work is for the community but it has to be by the community b) to ensure any action genuinely reflects the concerns of the community by listening to it. This might mean by the way that the priority issues are different to the priorities you have c) to accept the community as you find it and not how you'd like it to be. Both in terms of confidence and experience and also ideas.



Largely I agree, but I think groups also shouldn't pretend or hide the fact they have a political agenda. And also to not just try and reflect concerns of the 'community' (or workplace or whatever) but to influence them in useful directions, especially I'm assuming here that people doing the work are living in that area as well. For sure this means being careful of how it's done, but if we just pretend we're there to neutrally 'make things better' or 'help people' then we might as well join a charity.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jun 20, 2018)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Largely I agree, but I think groups also shouldn't pretend or hide the fact they have a political agenda. And also to not just try and reflect concerns of the 'community' (or workplace or whatever) but to influence them in useful directions, especially I'm assuming here that people doing the work are living in that area as well. For sure this means being careful of how it's done, but if we just pretend we're there to neutrally 'make things better' or 'help people' then we might as well join a charity.



Yes I agree, although sometimes the most effective way to make the political point is through doing something and allowing people to learn it for themselves, to see it, to experience it etc.  

Also, if the group or whatever isn't living in the area/on the estate/in the workplace then 'influencing' can take on a different hue in my opinion.


----------



## Red Sky (Jun 20, 2018)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Yes I agree, although sometimes the most effective way to make the political point is through doing something and allowing people to learn it for themselves, to see it, to experience it etc.
> 
> Also, if the group or whatever isn't living in the area/on the estate/in the workplace then 'influencing' can take on a different hue in my opinion.



I think this was discussed on another thread but is one of the obstacles to local (revolutionary) community organising not the fact that local government is already in a better position to deliver on any demands. 

There's a structure of Local Action Teams, residents associations, community police officers etc etc. Where do we fit in?


----------



## chilango (Jun 20, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> I think this was discussed on another thread but is one of the obstacles to local (revolutionary) community organising not the fact that local government is already in a better position to deliver on any demands.
> 
> There's a structure of Local Action Teams, residents associations, community police officers etc etc. Where do we fit in?



That structure, where it exists - which is far from everywhere, fails. It has repeatedly. And now it's being cut, withdrawn and sold off to churches and charities.

There were always vacuums. They're just getting bigger,wider and deeper.


----------



## Red Sky (Jun 20, 2018)

chilango said:


> That structure, where it exists - which is far from everywhere, fails. It has repeatedly. And now it's being cut, withdrawn and sold off to churches and charities.
> 
> There were always vacuums. They're just getting bigger,wider and deeper.




In my experience, where I live, it can work quite well to redress the kind of issues that might come up in a big community meeting e.g dangerous driving, fly tipping , late night noise etc


----------



## chilango (Jun 20, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> In my experience, where I live, it can work quite well to redress the kind of issues that might come up in a big community meeting e.g dangerous driving, fly tipping , late night noise etc



I don't think that experience is universal. But sure, where communities can and do have concerns addressed by the council, there's less of a space for IWCA initiatives to lose an alternative.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Jun 20, 2018)

Also I think it's worth pointing out that all of these things will have their own priorities, biases, levels of activity etc.

Sure as shit they can't/won't all be militant pro-working class orgs working at full capacity. And if they were it would simply be case of getting on board and helping anyway.

With Hackney Independent we ended up making good contacts with some TRAs, or just individuals in a given block who might tell us what was happening (or just buzz us in when we needed that). 

So you try to work in partnership with people who have their ear to the ground. Your newsletter or website can amplify what the TRA is doing (whether that is shaming the landlord or promoting a social event). You can then maybe use prominent people on the TRA to endorse other things you want to do (which could be a kids' cinema event or a wider campaign like a local election or against some bullshit regen project).

In other areas you might find that a Residents Association is unrepresentative of the wider w/c community so you'd need to take a different approach. 

I reluctantly ended up going to a community police meeting once and it was all middle class people with too much time on their hands. Apparently nobody there knew about the issues on my estate at the time. (I mean, like fuck the cops didn't know, they just turned a blind eye to it all).


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 20, 2018)

chilango said:


> I don't think that experience is universal. But sure, where communities can and do have concerns addressed by the council, there's less of a space for IWCA initiatives to lose an alternative.


Or IWCA type group can be the best advocates ?


----------



## chilango (Jun 20, 2018)

The39thStep said:


> Or IWCA type group can be the best advocates ?



At times, perhaps.

The Greens have that role sewn up round here. 

But as cuts bite I'm not sure they'll be able to deliver,


----------



## Red Sky (Jun 20, 2018)

The only explanation I've heard for the IWCAs trajectory was "lack of resources". It wasn't made clear where those resources were intended to come from.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 20, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> The only explanation I've heard for the IWCAs trajectory was "lack of resources". It wasn't made clear where those resources were intended to come from.


Presumably from what was AFA at the time ? After ten fifteen years of activity it was quite understandable that some members were either tired or that some couldn't make the break. AFA was always ambitious .


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Jun 20, 2018)

The39thStep said:


> Presumably from what was AFA at the time ? After ten fifteen years of activity it was quite understandable that some members were either tired or that some couldn't make the break. AFA was always ambitious .



It’s not just a matter of tiredness. There was plenty of energy around the early IWCA. The problem was that they never found a way to (a) spread local successes to the next estate or ward or town over or (b) recruit people to active ongoing regular involvement faster than the work involved ground down the people who started a local group. So a series of local groups were set up, a lot of unglamorous local activity was carried out, resulting in some very localized electoral support. Then the key people in each local group wore themselves out or slowly dropped out for various reasons and a decade later there was nothing left.


----------



## krink (Jun 23, 2018)

U OK hun?


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 23, 2018)

krink said:


> U OK hun?
> View attachment 138738
> View attachment 138739


I've had a few issues with them/him/her on Twitter


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 23, 2018)

obviously it is possible to be socially conservative  (measured by todays liberal left) , economically left and a good anti fascist


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jun 23, 2018)

The39thStep said:


> obviously it is possible to be socially conservative  (measured by todays liberal left) , economically left and a good anti fascist



That’s the same place that the bulk of Britain is on measure one and two - although those under 40 are marginally less economically left and marginally less socially conservative- with the third measure contested along cultural (rather than genuine fash/anti fascist) lines.


----------



## Red About Town (Jul 18, 2018)

Some anti fascism history from a new podcast launched today:

Joe Reilly of Red Action outlines the origins and history of the organisation, from the militant anti-fascist early days in Chapel Market to the Independent Working Class Association (IWCA) and electoral politics. This is from a talk given to the SolStar Sports Association in north London in Spring, 2018.			

Cutting Edge No.2 - The Origins of Red Action


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 18, 2018)

Red About Town said:


> Some anti fascism history from a new podcast launched today:
> 
> Joe Reilly of Red Action outlines the origins and history of the organisation, from the militant anti-fascist early days in Chapel Market to the Independent Working Class Association (IWCA) and electoral politics. This is from a talk given to the SolStar Sports Association in north London in Spring, 2018.
> 
> Cutting Edge No.2 - The Origins of Red Action


It's a good little initiative this podcast which deserves support


----------



## Red About Town (Jul 18, 2018)

*sure is.*

The Cutting edge aims to be a political podcast that acts as an antidote to the prevailing right-wing narratives, especially the divisive ideas that the far-rig...ht peddles in working class communities. We will also occasionally be scrutinising the politics of those who claim to be on 'our side', whether far-left, liberal, or soft-left.

We will develop features as the podcast grows, but from the outset this is not about making cash, or courting fame and notoriety. There is a battle of ideas going on; our part in that battle is to try to advance progressive, common sense, working class politics as a counter to the extremes of identity politics that are promoted by the left and the right.

The podcasts will be relatively short and to the point, there will be views expressed and opinions sought via the responses on social media.

Future shows will be around themes like:

The Politics of the Free Tommy Robinson Movement
Nationalism 
The Working Class 
Immigration 
Fascism & Anti-Fascism 
Economics 
Identity Politics 
Sport & Politics 
Religion & Politics 
A Republic or A Monarchy?


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 19, 2018)

Red About Town said:


> *sure is.*
> 
> The Cutting edge aims to be a political podcast that acts as an antidote to the prevailing right-wing narratives, especially the divisive ideas that the far-rig...ht peddles in working class communities. We will also occasionally be scrutinising the politics of those who claim to be on 'our side', whether far-left, liberal, or soft-left.
> 
> ...


if you can find the space do something on both the Iwca sports club and Jim Slaven's project? also SEWorking Class Action


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Jul 19, 2018)

Just listened to the first episode. Very good. 

Worth getting it on iTunes to spread the message wider. (Also easier for me - I can subscribe via the iPhone podcast app and new episodes download to my phone automatically).


----------



## Red Sky (Jul 19, 2018)

Red About Town said:


> Some anti fascism history from a new podcast launched today:
> 
> Joe Reilly of Red Action outlines the origins and history of the organisation, from the militant anti-fascist early days in Chapel Market to the Independent Working Class Association (IWCA) and electoral politics. This is from a talk given to the SolStar Sports Association in north London in Spring, 2018.
> 
> Cutting Edge No.2 - The Origins of Red Action



What's the intro music? Dunno about the political content but I think I've found my new ringtone.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 19, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> What's the intro music? Dunno about the political content but I think I've found my new ringtone.



It’s the title music from the film The Long Good Friday.

East end gangster, Bob Hoskins, fights a turf war with the IRA whilst tying to court the mafia to help him muscle in on the the regeneration of the docks. Classic of the field


----------



## Red Sky (Jul 19, 2018)

Smokeandsteam said:


> It’s the title music from the film The Long Good Friday.
> 
> East end gangster, Bob Hoskins, fights a turf war with the IRA whilst tying to court the mafia to help him muscle in on the the regeneration of the docks. Classic of the field



Seen that a couple of times. Didn't place the music at all. Fits it perfectly. 

(Iirc your post needs a spoiler alert)


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 19, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> What's the intro music? Dunno about the political content but I think I've found my new ringtone.


good to see that despite having shite politics you know a good tune when you hear one


----------



## Red Sky (Jul 19, 2018)

The39thStep said:


> good to see that despite having shite politics you know a good tune when you hear one



Played it at work today and a labourer said "Oh yeah Synthwave" , which is apparently a thing now. I don't have the wherewithal to know if he was bullshitting me so kept my silence.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 19, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> Played it at work today and a labourer said "Oh yeah Synthwave" , which is apparently a thing now. I don't have the wherewithal to know if he was bullshitting me so kept my silence.



Were you busy checking if he’d been in the toilet too long?


----------



## Red Sky (Jul 19, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Were you busy checking if he’d been in the toilet too long?



Is that how you do your skiving?


----------



## Fedayn (Jul 19, 2018)

Smokeandsteam said:


> It’s the title music from the film The Long Good Friday.
> 
> East end gangster, Bob Hoskins, fights a turf war with the IRA whilst tying to court the mafia to help him muscle in on the the regeneration of the docks. Classic of the field



The closing scene is perfectly 'framed' by the music.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 19, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> Is that how you do your skiving?



We’re the labourers polishing your floor? Come on.


----------



## Red Sky (Jul 19, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> We’re the labourers polishing your floor? Come on.



My throne, if it makes you happy.


----------



## LDC (Jul 19, 2018)

Red About Town said:


> Some anti fascism history from a new podcast launched today:
> 
> Joe Reilly of Red Action outlines the origins and history of the organisation, from the militant anti-fascist early days in Chapel Market to the Independent Working Class Association (IWCA) and electoral politics. This is from a talk given to the SolStar Sports Association in north London in Spring, 2018.
> 
> Cutting Edge No.2 - The Origins of Red Action



Will listen to that and might like to get them up to Leeds to give the talk here too, will PM you.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jul 19, 2018)

The39thStep said:


> I've had a few issues with them/him/her on Twitter


This will likely be our epitaph


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 19, 2018)

Fedayn said:


> The closing scene is perfectly 'framed' by the music.


touches nose and winks


----------



## krink (Jul 20, 2018)

It's a very interesting idea and I've subscribed. Need someone to tweak the audio of the talk because it was quite hard to understand on speakers (haven't tried via headphones yet).


----------



## killer b (Jul 20, 2018)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Will listen to that and might like to get them up to Leeds to give the talk here too, will PM you.


Joe Reilly posts here I think, you should PM him directly...


----------



## steeplejack (Jul 20, 2018)

It's been a while since this chap was seen on the boards (a regular feature in threads as the pilotless Trot drones did political aerobatics on here during 2003-5; cliffite, rebel warrior, fishergate, et al)

Red Action's finest contribution to the admittedly minor sub genre of cartoons lampooning Trotskyites.



​ 
​Se the above ^^ in action here in 2010


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 20, 2018)

steeplejack said:


> It's been a while since this chap was seen on the boards (a regular feature in threads as the pilotless Trot drones did political aerobatics on here during 2003-5; cliffite, rebel warrior, fishergate, et al)
> 
> Red Action's finest contribution to the admittedly minor sub genre of cartoons lampooning Trotskyites.
> 
> ...


dont forget Cockneyrebel


----------



## steeplejack (Jul 20, 2018)

"frats comrade

Resistance MP3"


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 20, 2018)

At one time it was estimated that !0% of Workers Power posted on here


----------



## steeplejack (Jul 20, 2018)

excluding Mitch PIleggi who had fissured the revolutionary milieu in Darlington by that stage


----------



## cantsin (Jul 21, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> Played it at work today and a labourer said "Oh yeah Synthwave" , which is apparently a thing now. I don't have the wherewithal to know if he was bullshitting me so kept my silence.



Yr a weird one


----------



## cantsin (Jul 21, 2018)

Red About Town said:


> Some anti fascism history from a new podcast launched today:
> 
> Joe Reilly of Red Action outlines the origins and history of the organisation, from the militant anti-fascist early days in Chapel Market to the Independent Working Class Association (IWCA) and electoral politics. This is from a talk given to the SolStar Sports Association in north London in Spring, 2018.
> 
> Cutting Edge No.2 - The Origins of Red Action



V listenable ( unsurprisingly )


----------



## Red Sky (Jul 22, 2018)

cantsin said:


> Yr a weird one



Bit unnecessary.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 22, 2018)

steeplejack said:


> excluding Mitch PIleggi who had fissured the revolutionary milieu in Darlington by that stage


LOL. I had forgoten all about him .


----------



## Fedayn (Jul 23, 2018)

The39thStep said:


> At one time it was estimated that !0% of Workers Power posted on here



And 1% on Newsnight.....


----------



## belboid (Jul 24, 2018)

Fedayn said:


> And 1% on Newsnight.....


You're exaggerating their membership, there. At least 2%


----------



## Joe Reilly (Jul 26, 2018)

Nigel Irritable said:


> It’s not just a matter of tiredness. There was plenty of energy around the early IWCA. The problem was that they never found a way to (a) spread local successes to the next estate or ward or town over or (b) recruit people to active ongoing regular involvement faster than the work involved ground down the people who started a local group. So a series of local groups were set up, a lot of unglamorous local activity was carried out, resulting in some very localized electoral support. Then the key people in each local group wore themselves out or slowly dropped out for various reasons and a decade later there was nothing left.


As an analysis that's about as useful as the self-described anti-fascists who continue to speculate on 'AFA's collapse'. In both cases the impact on the opposition and how they responded is regarded as irrelevant. it is a pretend sophistication that simply denies the existence of the enemy.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Jul 26, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> And when the far right adopt a twin (or even triple) track strategy?



If they are already winning in the electoral arena why would they bother?


----------



## Red Sky (Jul 26, 2018)

Joe Reilly said:


> If they are already winning in the electoral arena why would they bother?



In the U.K at least they're not. So we're seeing a street and cultural movement.  The last TR thing in London was an attempt to convert those into an electoral movement with pretty much every speaker urging those assembled to get involved with the UKIP party machine.  The crowd weren't that enthused about the idea though.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Jul 26, 2018)

Joe Reilly said:


> As an analysis that's about as useful as the self-described anti-fascists who continue to speculate on 'AFA's collapse'. In both cases the impact on the opposition and how they responded is regarded as irrelevant. it is a pretend sophistication that simply denies the existence of the enemy.



Please, do go on. I’m looking forward to your attempt to rewrite the history of the IWCA as a series of strategic successes culminating in the final glorious establishment of a local running club. No doubt it was a shrewd tactical move to confuse the enemy by withering away to nothing.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 26, 2018)

Aside from the odd march ( and the fash element has been in the minority on them)  is there anyother evidence about a street movement? The other issue is that there isn't any leadership at present to direct a street movement or even to manage behaviour on the demos. You would have thought that after the Robinson/Trump march that the Cambridge one would have been supported or that an organised street movemnt would have at least had a go but it was a flop.


----------



## Red Sky (Jul 26, 2018)

The39thStep said:


> Aside from the odd march ( and the fash element has been in the minority on them)  is there anyother evidence about a street movement? The other issue is that there isn't any leadership at present to direct a street movement or even to manage behaviour on the demos. You would have thought that after the Robinson/Trump march that the Cambridge one would have been supported or that an organised street movemnt would have at least had a go but it was a flop.



There's been these three large demos in Central London. The Cambridge thing was a local initiative and a flop. The leadership such as it is seem to have decided not to repeat the structure of the EDL with its autonomous ROs (regional officers).


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 26, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> There's been these three large demos in Central London. The Cambridge thing was a local initiative and a flop. The leadership such as it is seem to have decided not to repeat the structure of the EDL with its autonomous ROs (regional officers).


I'm not convinced that there is any meaningful overall real leadership or structure. Btw have you read  briefing on the far right by rs21 ? (I only have because a friend of mine who has a son at some University sent the link to me. 
After 9 June: on labelling fascists


----------



## Joe Reilly (Jul 26, 2018)

Arbeter Fraynd said:


> Seeing as we're currently witnessing the biggest far-right street protests in many decades, alongside the collapse of both the BNP and UKIP, I don't think things have turned out quite as predicted by AFA leadership at the time.



Look at Europe and the AFA prediction is playing out almost exactly as forecast. But all that to one side, let's assume for the sake of argument that every member of the thousands of FLA and the Free Tommy Brigade and so on are all dyed in the wool fascists, what then?

Whats the plan?


----------



## Joe Reilly (Jul 26, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> In the U.K at least they're not.


Not yet.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Jul 26, 2018)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Please, do go on. I’m looking forward to your attempt to rewrite the history of the IWCA as a series of strategic successes culminating in the final glorious establishment of a local running club. No doubt it was a shrewd tactical move to confuse the enemy by withering away to nothing.



Your the one zealously re-writing history. Attempting to paint the IWCA as a laughable is fairly absurd when you consider how your Trot fellow travellers fared when they ever they stood against it.

In the local elections in 2006 the IWCA candidate came pretty close to securing a seat in Clerkenwell, even though it was 40% gentrified already. Across two wards there the IWCA candidates (half recruited locally) took approx 3,000 votes. At the time the IWCA was still looking to expand from its base in Blackbird Leys. Nevertheless a line was drawn under the pilot scheme strategy at a national level later that year. There never was any ''withering away'. The plug was pulled partly to avoid giving its many enemies that satisfaction.

But naturally, more than a decade on, they/you are running with the 'inevitable demise' storyline anyway.

25 years after driving the far-right from the streets for a generation we are still reading about AFA's "collapse" for the same reason. Revisionism.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 26, 2018)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Please, do go on. I’m looking forward to your attempt to rewrite the history of the IWCA as a series of strategic successes culminating in the final glorious establishment of a local running club. No doubt it was a shrewd tactical move to confuse the enemy by withering away to nothing.



In the last five years I reckon you’ve posted this, or something similar about the IWCA, about 20 times. Every single time ending in a sneering attack on a community run project. A project which has encompassed sport, cinema, day trips, working class history events, anti drug dealer activities, an effective challenge to the miserable complacent labourism that’s done fuck all for the people who live on Blackbird Leys and much much more. All of it achieved by working class activists who are from the estate.

And every time you belittle it as the actions of wankers who a) are defeated and b) are inferior to your superior politics which, of course, have led precisely nowhere.

I think we all know who the wanker is.


----------



## RD2003 (Jul 26, 2018)

Smokeandsteam said:


> In the last five years I reckon you’ve posted this, or something similar about the IWCA, about 20 times. Every single time ending in a sneering attack on a community run project. A project which has encompassed sport, cinema, day trips, working class history events, anti drug dealer activities, an effective challenge to the miserable complacent labourism that’s done fuck all for the people who live on Blackbird Leys and much much more. All of it achieved by working class activists who are from the estate.
> 
> And every time you belittle it as the actions of defeated wankers who a) are defeated and b) are inferior to your superior politics which, of course, have led precisely nowhere.
> 
> I think we all know who the wanker is.


Nigel is a real leftie. It isn't what happens that counts-it's whether the rhetoric sounds good.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 26, 2018)

RD2003 said:


> Nigel is a real leftie. It isn't what happens that counts-it's whether the rhetoric sounds good.



His obsessive delight in his, erroneous, perception of the defeat of working class activists who’ve invested over a decade in the estate where they live is instructive.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 26, 2018)

He’ll be back shortly to claim a) it’s just a genuine enquiry given his interest in pro working class politics and b) his sneering attacks are a purely defensive response to the arrogance of the IWCA that he’s got no examples of.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Jul 27, 2018)

_
_


Arbeter Fraynd said:


> I never saw it as either/or.  And am not convinced that the far-right ever exactly abandoned force and the street - the BNP mostly did although there were still street marches in the NW after they'd claimed they weren't going to do any more.



This counterfactual nonsense is dangerously delusional.   The truth is the 1994 cessation was respected across the entire country. With one notable exception. A far-right counter demo against a Bloody Sunday March in Manchester in 1996. They were absolutely splattered. No punch-ups, marches or meetings thereafter.  

There is little doubt that anti-fascism will face huge strategic challenges in the years ahead. Pretending that 'they never went away you know' (on top of confusing the likes of BNP/NF/B&H/C18 with UKIP, EDL and the FLA) risks leaving anti-fascism psychologically ill-equipped to step up up to the plate, as we have already seen happen elsewhere in Europe, when required to do so.


----------



## Arbeter Fraynd (Jul 27, 2018)

I'd agree about the overall shift of strategy, and I'm not claiming there were huge marches, but there definitely were some NF and/or BNP marches in the NW in the early 2000s.  I know that for a fact as I witnessed and was involved in confronting at least 2.

Its a while back now, couldn't give you exact dates, but would probably be 2001/2


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Jul 27, 2018)

There were some absolutely tiny NF “marches” in the noughties iirc of about 30 people, heavily protected by the police. 

Far more like trolling or doing the old “come on then” whilst running away than a show of strength like Lewisham 77 or the BNP’s “rights for whites” marches of the early 90s.


----------



## Red Sky (Jul 27, 2018)

Joe Reilly said:


> This counterfactual nonsense is dangerously delusional.   The truth is the 1994 cessation was respected across the entire country. With one notable exception. A far-right counter demo against a Bloody Sunday March in Manchester in 1996. They were absolutely splattered. No punch-ups, marches or meetings thereafter.
> 
> There is little doubt that anti-fascism will face huge strategic challenges in the years ahead. Pretending that 'they never went away you know' (on top of confusing the likes of BNP/NF/B&H/C18 with UKIP, EDL and the FLA) risks leaving anti-fascism psychologically ill-equipped to step up up to the plate, as we have already seen happen elsewhere in Europe, when required to do so.



The forces of nationalism returned to the streets in 2009. Inchaote and disorganised but recognised at the time as the kernel of something potentially much bigger.

The search for "The real fascists" among them is a bit of a distraction.


----------



## Arbeter Fraynd (Jul 27, 2018)

.

can't you delete posts on here? balls up trying to reply on a phone while slightly pissed...


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 27, 2018)

Arbeter Fraynd said:


> .
> 
> can't you delete posts on here? balls up trying to reply on a phone while slightly pissed...



Yes. Press edit and delete the words. Replace with a . or similar and press post reply.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Jul 27, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> The forces of nationalism returned to the streets in 2009. Inchaote and disorganised but recognised at the time as the kernel of something potentially much bigger.
> 
> The search for "The real fascists" among them is a bit of a distraction.



A distraction from what?


----------



## Joe Reilly (Jul 28, 2018)

Arbeter Fraynd said:


> I'd agree about the overall shift of strategy, and I'm not claiming there were huge marches, but there definitely were some NF and/or BNP marches in the NW in the early 2000s.  I know that for a fact as I witnessed and was involved in confronting at least 2.
> 
> Its a while back now, couldn't give you exact dates, but would probably be 2001/2



OK. You provide no location. You are unable to pin down the dates. And are not sure exactly of who was marching.  Hardly compelling. 

More importantly what you also appear entirely unaware of is that the Griffin/Lecomber/Butler leadership fought an intense and bitter internal battle (covered extensively in BTF incidentally, which you obviously haven't read either) against the old guard Tyndall/Edmonds prior to assuming leadership and imposing the new strategy. 

After a long patient 7 to 8 year wait, it was only in 2001-2002 that the investment looked like paying off. 

The idea that Griffin/Lecomber would pick this precise time revisit the old strategy, which they themselves had done so much to discredit, is risible. 

PS: "I'm not claiming they were huge marches" - here unwittingly you give the game away anyway. For if the BNP did decide to organise a march, then the turn out would likely be ten or twenty times bigger than the 30 odd the NF could hope to muster, so there never could be any confusion between the two.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Jul 28, 2018)

Smokeandsteam said:


> In the last five years I reckon you’ve posted this, or something similar about the IWCA, about 20 times.



He's been on the case for longer than that. As far back as 2004 he was disputing the 50,000 votes the IWCA candidate received in the London Mayoral election...


----------



## Red Sky (Jul 28, 2018)

Joe Reilly said:


> A distraction from what?



The fact that dangerous forms of ultra nationalism can emerge spontaneously without some kind of hidden hand involved.  

A lot of time was wasted in the first couple of years of the EDL trying to spot the secret cabal of Hitler worshippers who were obviously behind the whole thing.

Griffin did try to organise marches in the wake of the Lee Rigby murder, one in Whitehall (foiled by badgers) and a bizarre appearance in Dover with Paul Pitt.


----------



## Red Sky (Jul 28, 2018)

Joe Reilly said:


> OK. You provide no location. You are unable to pin down the dates. And are not sure exactly of who was marching.  Hardly compelling.
> 
> More importantly what you also appear entirely unaware of is that the Griffin/Lecomber/Butler leadership fought an intense and bitter internal battle (covered extensively in BTF incidentally, which you obviously haven't read either) against the old guard Tyndall/Edmonds prior to assuming leadership and imposing the new strategy.
> 
> ...



The NF were organising matches around this sort of time. Two in Margate to my knowledge. Numbering 120 max iirc


----------



## Joe Reilly (Jul 30, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> The fact that dangerous forms of ultra nationalism can emerge spontaneously without some kind of hidden hand involved.
> 
> A lot of time was wasted in the first couple of years of the EDL trying to spot the secret cabal of Hitler worshippers who were obviously behind the whole thing.
> 
> Griffin did try to organise marches in the wake of the Lee Rigby murder, one in Whitehall (foiled by badgers) and a bizarre appearance in Dover with Paul Pitt.



I do hope you are not implying that because Griffin tried (allegedly) to organise a single march a year out from his retirement and twenty years after the 'no more marches' declaration that in some way this supports the counterfactual theory that the declaration was merely a smokescreen all along?


----------



## Joe Reilly (Jul 30, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> The NF were organising matches around this sort of time. Two in Margate to my knowledge. Numbering 120 max iirc



So what? The NF could march in Margate every week, even every day, and not make a smidgen of difference to anyone either in Margate or anywhere else. AFA abandoned the NF as unworthy of its time, when the NF could pull twice as many, ten years earlier, in order to focus on the BNP in the East End in particular. 
'Focus' is the operative word. Impulsively reacting to every tiny initiative always runs the risk of appearing symbiotic. 
Especially when the seriously ambitious elements of the far-right are gathering unhindered elsewhere. This is surely the lesson from the Continent where both social democracy and anti-fascism have been hopelessly outflanked.


----------



## Red Sky (Jul 30, 2018)

Joe Reilly said:


> So what? The NF could march in Margate every week, even every day, and not make a smidgen of difference to anyone either in Margate or anywhere else. AFA abandoned the NF as unworthy of its time, when the NF could pull twice as many, ten years earlier, in order to focus on the BNP in the East End in particular.
> 'Focus' is the operative word. Impulsively reacting to every tiny initiative always runs the risk of appearing symbiotic.
> Especially when the seriously ambitious elements of the far-right are gathering unhindered elsewhere. This is surely the lesson from the Continent where both social democracy and anti-fascism have been hopelessly outflanked.



Firstly it's a factual response. This happened. Thats what.

I totally disagree that it wouldn't make a smidge of difference if they marched every day. Maybe tell that to any non whites living in Margate.

At the time this was the biggest far right march in the country. It was greeted with an ad hoc mobilisation led by locals which was an appropriate measure.


----------



## Red Sky (Jul 30, 2018)

Joe Reilly said:


> I do hope you are not implying that because Griffin tried (allegedly) to organise a single march a year out from his retirement and twenty years after the 'no more marches' declaration that in some way this supports the counterfactual theory that the declaration was merely a smokescreen all along?



Not really interested in reviving rows from nearly thirty years ago. Again, this is a fact and something that happened.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Jul 30, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> Not really interested in reviving rows from nearly thirty years ago. Again, this is a fact and something that happened.



Well, according to your own account nothing actually happened. And as far the "thirty years ago" reference it was cited by you as an example to begin with. But you apparently now wish to row back from explaining its import. It's like your having an argument with yourself.


----------



## Brownglass (Jul 31, 2018)

Arbeter Fraynd said:


> I'd agree about the overall shift of strategy, and I'm not claiming there were huge marches, but there definitely were some NF and/or BNP marches in the NW in the early 2000s.  I know that for a fact as I witnessed and was involved in confronting at least 2.
> 
> Its a while back now, couldn't give you exact dates, but would probably be 2001/2


Yes, there was a far-right anti-immigrant march in Dover around this time, I recall seeing on the BBC before they went ultra politically correct.
Focus was on strong white man holding Union flag on his balcony, and crusty anarchists fighting fash/pigs.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 31, 2018)

Always reminds me of that period where the BNP were winning seats but the anti fascists thought that the real fight was against some micro sect of fash picketing HMV about a record. Anyway,  anyone going to answer Joe's question about how to tackle the coalition around the TR campaign ?


----------



## Red Sky (Jul 31, 2018)

Joe Reilly said:


> Well, according to your own account nothing actually happened. And as far the "thirty years ago" reference it was cited by you as an example to begin with. But you apparently now wish to row back from explaining its import. It's like your having an argument with yourself.



Something definitely happened. Griffin thought he might be able to replicate the EDL phenomena, gain control of it or at least go into alliance with it. He put out a video appeal to Tommy Robinson to abandon his Zionist backers and join him. 
Anti fascists mobilised and the whole day misfired for him. Shortly after he left the BNP.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Jul 31, 2018)

Brownglass said:


> Yes, there was a far-right anti-immigrant march in Dover around this time, I recall seeing on the BBC before they went ultra politically correct.
> Focus was on strong white man holding Union flag on his balcony, and crusty anarchists fighting fash/pigs.



Not to be overly pedantic, but at issue is not the NF in Dover but the BNP in the North West. The allegation was made the BNP there did not abide by the party's 1994 decision to turn exclusively to electoral politics but continued with the 'march and grow' strategy pioneered by Oswald Moseley in order to 'control the streets'. 

Dover, it ought not be necessary to point out, is not in the North West either.


----------



## Brownglass (Jul 31, 2018)

Joe Reilly said:


> Not to be overly pedantic, but at issue is not the NF in Dover but the BNP in the North West. The allegation was made the BNP there did not abide by the party's 1994 decision to turn exclusively to electoral politics but continued with the 'march and grow' strategy pioneered by Oswald Moseley in order to 'control the streets'.
> 
> Dover, it ought not be necessary to point out, is not in the North West either.


I do live in the north-west of England and am aware that Dover is not here.
As far as I know in my relatively limited experience, there have been no far-right marches up here for a very long time.
Except for the pre-9/11 ones in Lancashire mill towns, prior to BNP growth.


----------



## Arbeter Fraynd (Jul 31, 2018)

Joe Reilly said:


> The allegation was made the BNP there did not abide by the party's 1994 decision to turn exclusively to electoral politics but continued with the 'march and grow' strategy pioneered by Oswald Moseley in order to 'control the streets'.



Given what you and others have pointed out the marches I'm talking about were presumably NF organised rather than BNP.  I appreciate the difference between the two, but there were still fascists marching in the streets of Oldham and Burnley in the early 2000s


----------



## killer b (Jul 31, 2018)

Brownglass said:


> I do live in the north-west of England and am aware that Dover is not here.
> As far as I know in my relatively limited experience, there have been no far-right marches up here for a very long time.
> Except for the pre-9/11 ones in Lancashire mill towns, prior to BNP growth.


there was loads of EDL marches when they were popular. you must not have been paying attention.


----------



## Brownglass (Jul 31, 2018)

killer b said:


> there was loads of EDL marches when they were popular. you must not have been paying attention.


The EDL are not a traditional fascist organisation, despite their street prescence.
As the Labour Party is not a socialist party, but a party with some socialist's in it.
The EDL are/were a right-wing party with some fascists in it.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 31, 2018)

Arbeter Fraynd said:


> Given what you and others have pointed out the marches I'm talking about were presumably NF organised rather than BNP.  I appreciate the difference between the two, but there were still fascists marching in the streets of Oldham and Burnley in the early 2000s


Obviously the 30 or so NF that turned up to most of their marches were a bigger threat than the BNP who were getting 28% of the vote in Council elections in  Oldham and winning seats in Burnley.


----------



## Arbeter Fraynd (Jul 31, 2018)

The39thStep said:


> Obviously the 30 or so NF that turned up to most of their marches were a bigger threat than the BNP who were getting 28% of the vote in Council elections in  Oldham and winning seats in Burnley.



of course not.  where and when am I supposed to have said that?


----------



## Arbeter Fraynd (Jul 31, 2018)

I don't really understand the determination here to win arguments that no-body is having.  Since posting in this thread I've been accused of thinking the NF were more important than the BNP, of telling the working class to vote Labour (presumably that was what Joe means by the status quo) and of fabricating marches that never happened - all because I tried to discuss my experiences of attempting to work out how to do something about BNP, as an anarchist, at a time and place where there was no visible, radical opposition


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 31, 2018)

Arbeter Fraynd said:


> of course not.  where and when am I supposed to have said that?


I didn't say that you had tbh.Its a thread not a private conversation.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Aug 1, 2018)

Arbeter Fraynd said:


> I don't really understand the determination here to win arguments that no-body is having.  Since posting in this thread I've been accused of thinking the NF were more important than the BNP, of telling the working class to vote Labour (presumably that was what Joe means by the status quo) and of fabricating marches that never happened - all because I tried to discuss my experiences of attempting to work out how to do something about BNP, as an anarchist, at a time and place where there was no visible, radical opposition



You made a number of egregious statements regarding the BNP which when challenged you were unable to support. You implied for instance that theirs was in fact a twin track approach - candidates one day, smashing up lefty meetings - the next. But there was no basis for any of this. You also stated that because of this there was real import to the 1994 BNP declaration.

Well if you know anything of history you would know that this was the first time since the 1930's the major force on the far-right had decided on such a course.  The leadership could convince the membership of the need for change a) because by the mid-90's they were visibly losing on the streets at a national level and b) in looking at the Continent they could raise the prospect of (relative) electoral nirvana. Something incidentally that was beyond both the BUF or NF although far better resourced.

Thus in suggesting a continuum it gave the impression that largely ineffective sectarian groupings  such as No Platform and Antifa  were merely carrying on the work that AFA had mistakenly/disgracefully abandoned, even though they were only able to pose as anti-fascist saviors in lefty circles (and indeed are still dining out on it) because the vast majority of far-right had by then already abandoned the field.

If one thing is for certain is that this is not the time to encourage any further wallowing in such self-delusion. The populist right already looking ominous, is busy re-shaping itself in order to make further inroads. So it is high time for working class anti-fascists to begin think along similar lines.

Ultimately, as we have already seen across much of the rest of Europe, anti-fascism's tacit endorsement of a libertarian agenda is enabling the far right not thwarting them.

Ps: so if you think you are being dug out that is why.


----------



## Arbeter Fraynd (Aug 3, 2018)

Not bothered about being 'dug out', just thought it might have been a more interesting and useful conversation if we dealt with what we actually think and say, rather than ascribing opinions in order to ague with them

Anyway, I'll leave you to it


----------



## Joe Reilly (Aug 3, 2018)

Arbeter Fraynd said:


> Not bothered about being 'dug out', just thought it might have been a more interesting and useful conversation if we dealt with what we actually think and say, rather than ascribing opinions in order to ague with them
> 
> Anyway, I'll leave you to it



It might also have been a more interesting conversation had you bothered to answer the question that was put to you on a number of occasions instead of repeatedly insisting your were being misquoted.


----------



## TopCat (Aug 7, 2018)

Labour calling for ANL to be relaunched. Mentions AFA in Guardian piece.


----------



## belboid (Aug 7, 2018)

TopCat said:


> Labour calling for ANL to be relaunched. Mentions AFA in Guardian piece.


Looks like they’ve confused AFA with ARA

“It often existed in competition with the broad-based Anti-Fascist Action.”


----------



## TopCat (Aug 7, 2018)

AFA was more broad based than ARA.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Aug 7, 2018)

TopCat said:


> AFA was more broad based than ARA.



More to the point, ARA never achieved anything of note.  Meanwhile Labour seems to be forgetting why the ANL was wound up in the first place. It's pivotal role in the Bradford riots for example. Is that really what Labour thinks is required right now?  Muslim communities put on  a war footing?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 7, 2018)

TopCat said:


> Labour calling for ANL to be relaunched. Mentions AFA in Guardian piece.



Here's the article:

John McDonnell: revive Anti-Nazi League to oppose far right

The SWP will be dusting the lollipops off as we speak....


----------



## Red Sky (Aug 7, 2018)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Here's the article:
> 
> John McDonnell: revive Anti-Nazi League to oppose far right
> 
> The SWP will be dusting the lollipops off as we speak....



Odd given that the ANL pretty much exists, now called Stand Up to Racism, previously Unite Against Fascism.  Not sure what a 'new' ANL would be doing differently.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Aug 7, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> Odd given that the ANL pretty much exists, now called Stand Up to Racism, previously Unite Against Fascism.  Not sure what a 'new' ANL would be doing differently.



It’s nostalgia and rose tinted spectacles for the “simpler” times of the 1970s when fascism was defeated by big marches and pop concerts. Wasn’t it?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 7, 2018)

Fozzie Bear said:


> It’s nostalgia and rose tinted spectacles for the “simpler” times of the 1970s when fascism was defeated by big marches and pop concerts. Wasn’t it?



That’s exactly what I thought.

McDonnell is all over the shop on this. A few gigs by the Sleaford Mods and Stormzy aren’t going to deliver a meta cultural response and b) a TUC/Labour/cobweb left coalition is already in existence and ‘active’. whether it incorporates a rebranded SUTR/ANL type campaign or appends itself to it for ‘mobilisations’ its direction of travel and approach is already set. The direction of travel is away from the working class rather than towards it. It has no interest in or appetite for proper engagement with the constitutency the far right is interested in. It has no plan to, where necessary, drive cleavages between those communities and the opposition.

Put another way does anyone serious think ANL Mark 6 will fill the vacuum any more effectively than previous iterations of it?


----------



## Red Sky (Aug 7, 2018)

Fozzie Bear said:


> It’s nostalgia and rose tinted spectacles for the “simpler” times of the 1970s when fascism was defeated by big marches and pop concerts. Wasn’t it?



A few big concerts wouldn't hurt.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 7, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> A few big concerts wouldn't hurt.


wouldn't hurt who ?


----------



## cantsin (Aug 7, 2018)

Smokeandsteam said:


> That’s exactly what I thought.
> 
> McDonnell is all over the shop on this. A few gigs by the Sleaford Mods and Stormzy aren’t going to deliver a meta cultural response and b) a TUC/Labour/cobweb left coalition is already in existence and ‘active’. whether it incorporates a rebranded SUTR/ANL type campaign or appends itself to it for ‘mobilisations’ its direction of travel and approach is already set. *The direction of travel is away from the working class rather than towards it. It has no interest in or appetite for proper engagement with the constitutency the far right is interested in. It has no plan to, where necessary, drive cleavages between those communities and the opposition.*
> 
> Put another way does anyone serious think ANL Mark 6 will fill the vacuum any more effectively than previous iterations of it?



all true no doubt, but it's all a bit more complicated at present - eg : the 'attack' at the w/e  that McDonnell was directly responding to had nothing to do with any working class constituency /  politics, real or imagined. (On either side of the equation tbf)


----------



## Red Sky (Aug 7, 2018)

cantsin said:


> all true no doubt, but it's all a bit more complicated at present - eg : the 'attack' at the w/e  that McDonnell was directly responding to had nothing to do with any working class constituency /  politics, real or imagined. (On either side of the equation tbf)



It's not clear that this new right formation is based around a direct appeal to the working class.


----------



## M Testa (Aug 7, 2018)

TopCat said:


> Labour calling for ANL to be relaunched. Mentions AFA in Guardian piece.



what's this? mark 3 or 4?


----------



## M Testa (Aug 7, 2018)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Here's the article:
> 
> John McDonnell: revive Anti-Nazi League to oppose far right
> 
> The SWP will be dusting the lollipops off as we speak....



'nartzi scum! off our streets!' (cringe)


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 7, 2018)

cantsin said:


> all true no doubt, but it's all a bit more complicated at present - eg : the 'attack' at the w/e  that McDonnell was directly responding to had nothing to do with any working class constituency /  politics, real or imagined. (On either side of the equation tbf)



I’m not sure I’d call for the ANL if protecting the SWP infrastructure, morale and paper sellers was the priority. Their previous track record is ‘mixed’


----------



## Fallon (Jan 18, 2019)

Quite an interesting blog by former members of Celtic's football firm, the Celtic Soccer Crew. The below piece may be of interest to readers of this thread as one of their members recalls the time he participated in and was later imprisoned for taking part in the Welling riots.

*CSC 1993 Welling riots*

*Going with our CSC articles, Holywell Street caught up with one of our finest lads, passionate in every department. He’s certainly old skool and with a colourful past. I first met Stef around the 1985/86 season at Tynecastle. From baby crew to front-line.*
*Here he chats of a day when Celtic went on a famous anti Fascism demo.*

*Stef:*
As I sit here and try to recall my time as a casual, as a proud member of the Celtic Soccer Crew, I struggle with age, the odd concussion and the reality that my time as one of the crew is muddied by the fact that I was an addict in fully fledged addiction for most of it. In actual fact the anticipation that came along with being part of a mob and having so many men and women at my back was the biggest high for a long time but, like all other highs, it eventually ran its course and stopped offering the freedom from self that it once gave me. Still, I look at the early eighties and the many names that came and went from my life, with fondness and a deep nostalgia that lingers even still, as I near the half century mark.

There are most certainly many Celtic bhoys in my thoughts who have died for one reason or another; many from the very same addiction I found respite from but, there are also a few of the mortal enemy; the huns; the ICF, who have died and who played a part in making the man who sits here writing this essay. I feel sad as I write but, nostalgia does that; it is an odd feeling filled with good memories and sad ones. I’ve discovered in this age of social media that nostalgia has its place and that it is important.

Anyway, on to what I can remember about 1993 and the Welling Unity Demonstration that led to me being sentenced to two years at Maidstone Crown Court. I was charged with riot, which was the worst of the charges on offer to all those arrested; disorderly conduct being the least of the three and affray coming in second. As it transpired the whole event was orchestrated by the authorities to push the criminal justice bill/act through parliament. Myself and the rest of the crew that went down were willing pawns in their game. I remember when we got there that I commented to my old friend E.F, (whom, I would dearly love to have contact with again), who was our liaison with the Anti-Fascist League organisers, that we were being set up by them also. If it kicks off, we will be there at the front and will likely be used as scapegoats for any trouble that ensues. For the sake of clarity here, I followed that assertion with, “don’t get me wrong E.F, I don’t care if we are being used but, lets not kid ourselves.

I remember there was a nominal fee of three pounds for the bus to London from Glasgow, it really was a no-brainer for us that went. I sat with Gary S if I remember correctly and I did heroin and ecstacy on the way there. My next real memories are of the boys raiding Lacoste in London; I missed out because I was either behind or in front of them. We also had a little run in with Millwall at Kings Cross station, or was it Euston station? They were getting a little mouthy at first, they thought we were Spurs and really did not wanna know when they found out who we were.

My next memory is us walking up the road towards the intersection where the riot started and ended; anticipation building as we had no idea what to expect. There were professional rioters all around us. Three years before this demo, the Poll tax riots had happened and there were the same folks who had been rioting at that demo at the Welling demonstration. This I later discovered because a couple of my co-accused where at both days.

At the end of the road we came to the intersection where the riot cops were awaiting our arrival. This was where I got excited; remember I’m there to represent the Crew, we don’t like fascists, yeah but, I’m a 24 year old addict who is so self-obsessed and riddled with low self-worth I was going to make it about me making me feel better and hopefully raising the profile a bit of the CSC at the same time.

When we reached the section that the cops where never going to let us past, the organisers of the march started asking everyone to link arms and get ready to sit in and refuse to move. I looked around and saw that on the roof of a garage of a nearby house there was a large camera; a television camera I thought. So, I wriggled free of the interlocked arms that held me and jumped out into the 8 or 10 feet of no-mans land between us and the bizzies and screamed Celtic Soccer Crew on tour ya Bastards!!!!! I was the first to break ranks and it all kicked off right at that moment. A funny aside here; as I screamed, my false teeth flew from my mouth and landed at the feet of a riot cop in front of me. I stopped and looked down at the same time as the copper looked down; we looked up at each other and I hesitated for a minute, weighing up my options. The chance of club on the back of my skull was all too real but, I thought ‘fuck it’ and I reached down and grabbed them without being rendered unconscious by the copper. They spent the next few hours snuggled in my pocket for safe keeping. Incidentally, this is far from the only time that my wallies went airborne when I was screaming at someone. I fought through legs in the jungle at Celtic Park a few times, to retrieve them.

Anyway, from there on in, it is a bit of blur; the bizzies charging us, bricks being thrown from the church wall that was destroyed by fellow rioters. Fellow Crew members would come in and out of view at varying times but, to be honest I think most of them did not partake in the riot as much as I did. I was mask free and hell bent on creating some infamy for myself and the Crew. Ed later told me that I was the one that kicked it all off and in my skewed, less than mature thinking of the time, I was so happy with this. I did get trampled at one point by riot cops and I thought “shit, this is it, this is where I get arrested” but, they just ran right over the top of me and I was able to get up and get away again. This incident is actually recorded on YouTube, if you look for Welling riot. I had a dark green jacket on and a red Lacoste hat.

The riot went on until it fizzled out; myself and young Kevin Mc, made our way back to the buses. We barely made it back home. The bus we had come on had left and we ran and stopped another that luckily for us was heading to Glasgow.  We got home late and I crashed out at home. Still at my parents house in Provanmill. I awoke the next morning and the first thing my dad said was “there’s the TV star” I asked him, “did you tape it, did you tape it?”. Sure enough he had recorded me on the news the evening before. I watched it and carried that VHS tape with me for weeks afterwards, I was so proud of myself. When I walked along the street that day, the neighbours; little old ladies and the rest where yelling at me “you fucking hooligan Kelly” and the like. I loved it; the infamy and 15 minutes of glory that I sought to fill the void inside me, I had it. It transpired that my picture was in newspapers all over England, less so in Scotland but, my brother in law, who is a Manc, called and let me know he had been heading to work the on the bus, the day after the riot and saw my picture in the Mirror or Sun or whatever tabloid he was reading.

As time went on, I moved further into my addiction and forgot all about my fifteen minutes of notoriety. My days spent thieving and looking for ways and means to get drugs. Going to the odd game with the bhoys and always being supported by them. I probably did some time in the months that followed, as was the pattern of my life, until one morning, about 8 months after the riot, I’m awakened by 4 CID in my bedroom. Two from Stewart Street and two from Scotland Yard; one of the guys from Scotland Yard said “you know what this is about Steven” and I replied “yep, you took your time”. I was flown back to London and taking to Bexley Heath cop shop to appear at Bexley Heath magistrates the next day. I was granted bail and went home. I went back and forward a couple of times and finally thought ‘fuck it’, if they want me they can come and get me again. I stopped appearing at court and was on the run with an arrest warrant out for me. I got picked up for shop-lifting somewhere and was laying in London Road cop shop. The screws there were pretty sure that the cops from London would not come up for me, as they rarely did for warrants in Scotland. I knew better and told them that. Sure enough, they came back and said that coppers from London where on their way up to get me. I was taken back down and remanded to Elmley nick on the Isle of Sheppy in Kent. Where I spent three months on remand before pleading guilty and getting sentenced to a deuce; with a third off because I had pleaded guilty at my earliest opportunity. It was reduced to 16 months and I did another 5 months on top of the three months I’d already done. I’ll never forget seeing the bhoys jumping around in the road in Maidstone when I went to court for trial. My heart felt full and I was proud of them for showing up. It was a treat.

(continued below)


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## Fallon (Jan 18, 2019)

I did my remand at Elmley and when sentenced moved to Aldington in another part of Kent; an old army barracks converted to a jail. The whole time I was there I was wasted, drugs, jail hooch, it was an easy sentence. Five months of Art class and cookery classes and stoned for most of it. Easy time. In my first week at Aldington, inmates broke into the pharmacy and stole a bunch of drugs, particularly valium. This event in and of itself is hilarious; a break in inside the jail but, the posters the guards put up in the dorms afterwards where downright ridiculous. These posters told of dangerous drugs being stolen and could they please hand them back in. Needless to say that for a couple of weeks the jail was the calmest it had been in years. Another time the canteen was robbed and various items where scattered around the place until used up.

The best incident by far was the time a Belgian fella escaped from the dorm I was in.

The jails in Kent were full of smugglers, guys who trafficked tobacco and hash to truckloads of cocaine and other contraband. Guys from all over the continent: Holland, Belgium, Turkey, Greece as well as the from Glasgow and beyond. In my dorm there was a fella from Belgium, who was pining so badly for his family; many of these guys where used as bait, set up by the real criminals to take a fall whilst the big shipments went through elsewhere. This guy it would appear, was one of these mugs, who was used as fodder for the cops. He was not cut out for jail, never mind a jail in England. Some of the boys in the dorm decided to help him get home.

At 6pm every night, the guards would do a head count and  go on a break and the new shift would come back at 7 and open up and do another head count to make sure everyone was there. In that hour the count went down by one head, literally.

The story goes that sometime before 6pm the Belgian fella had made his way onto the roof of one of the buildings at the jail and hid there waiting for the guards to all go off on their dinner break. At the same time in Hythe Dorm, the dorm I was in, the guys had made up a dummy and used the hair from the many haircuts we gave each other in the dorms to create a dummy head and put it in the bed for the count at 6pm. The guards would just come in and count bodies/lumps in beds, never expecting it to be anything other than a guy sleeping there. Once they had finished their 6 o’clock count, the dummy was disposed of and the bed space was cleaned up of any evidence. It would take the guards an age to figure out which inmate was missing in a jail with around 130 bodies. The Belgian fella had scaled the fence and razor wire using blankets.

There was some panic for a while, a lock-down ensued and everyone denied any knowledge of knowing where the guy had gone. Presumably the guard who did the count got dragged over the coals but, not much else happened afterwards as it really was an embarrassing event for H.M. Prisons at the time.

The icing on the cake was when we received a postcard from the guy back in Belgium a couple of weeks after the escape. A happy ending I’d say.

An interesting sub-plot to this whole experience for me; the riot and sentencing and doing the time, revolves around a scouse fella called Gary. Now, Scouse Gary as we called him, had first appeared on the scene sometime around 1985/86, after the Heysel Stadium disaster when Liverpool fans fighting with Juventus fans caused a wall to collapse and what happened, happened, as awful as it was. Scouse Gary told us that he was one of the Liverpool fans charged as part of the group of fans who where arrested. This was never substantiated by any of us and it was not as easy in 1986 to just look up who was and who wasn’t a part of this conflagration. Google not showing up for another couple or three decades. We just took him at face value and he became part of the scene for a short period, hanging around Queen Street station with myself and the other Baby crew folks who hung around there.

The strange thing about Scouse Gary is that, when I was in the cells at Maidstone crown court during trial and at preliminary hearings, eight years after I had last seen him, he shows up in my cell and claims to be one of my co-accused or, at least charged in connection with same demonstration. Our re-connection was a bit awkward; I may be wrong but, I’m now pretty sure, the Scouse fella was a professional informant; a plant; a fucking double agent if you will and had been for a number of years. Perhaps even and undercover screw, they where known to exist back in the heyday of us hooligan types. I’m not sure if he expected me when he came in to the cell, he wasn’t there long and like before he vanished in the ether never to be seen again, not during my remand or sentence.

A shady fucking character indeed.

The other notable events during that distant time in jail in England, were the thousands of letters I received from all over the world, from Holocaust survivors, from anti-fascists. From little old ladies and students and just people in the street who wanted to offer their support for a cause, a cause that I barely respected. My selfishness back then was immense; I was incapable of recognising the enormity of the cause I had tied my flag to for a day of notoriety and self-indulgent vanity. Still, I have no regrets. Life has come and gone and persists in presenting me with moments of clarity and growth; I look back with fondness and sadness; that beautiful feeling of nostalgia once again on my jail time in England and would not change it for the world

So, this is what I can recall now, as I sit here in bed in my home on Vancouver Island, British Columbia, Canada. 4,401 miles from Glasgow and 26 years from doing time in Kent for rioting. A lifetime ago; I am a father and a husband now, Capable of so much more than I was back then. I am a Registered Social Worker with a Bachelors Degree in Social Work; and I work as an addiction counsellor at a Maximum security Correctional Facility in Victoria and marvel often at how life is so different now.

Hail Hail and CSC # 1


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## Fallon (Feb 1, 2019)

Lancashire leftwingers pay tribute to a ‘warrior’ of the working class


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## cantsin (Feb 1, 2019)

Fallon said:


> I did my remand at Elmley and when sentenced moved to Aldington in another part of Kent; an old army barracks converted to a jail. The whole time I was there I was wasted, drugs, jail hooch, it was an easy sentence. Five months of Art class and cookery classes and stoned for most of it. Easy time. In my first week at Aldington, inmates broke into the pharmacy and stole a bunch of drugs, particularly valium. This event in and of itself is hilarious; a break in inside the jail but, the posters the guards put up in the dorms afterwards where downright ridiculous. These posters told of dangerous drugs being stolen and could they please hand them back in. Needless to say that for a couple of weeks the jail was the calmest it had been in years. Another time the canteen was robbed and various items where scattered around the place until used up.
> 
> The best incident by far was the time a Belgian fella escaped from the dorm I was in.
> 
> ...



some story that, good luck to the fella, to have got sorted out, and be able to look back positively on it all ( presumably still clean ) , is some achievment


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## Fallon (Feb 2, 2019)

cantsin said:


> some story that, good luck to the fella, to have got sorted out, and be able to look back positively on it all ( presumably still clean ) , is some achievment



I thought so. A warts and all brief extract of working class history.


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## M Testa (Feb 2, 2019)

Fallon said:


> Lancashire leftwingers pay tribute to a ‘warrior’ of the working class


our report on it. he was a good geezer! 
The Friday Blog: Richard Bircumshaw


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## pardon (Jul 24, 2019)

This was a great read it's captivated me over the last few weeks and I couldn't put it down, provided much food for thought too, specifically how does the left engage with working class communities in order to prevent them turning to the likes of Yaxley.


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## framed (Jul 26, 2019)

Hello!  Just popped in to leave this bizarre Walter Mitty piece here (for the record - lol). 

AFA + Irish Republicanism - 0161 Festival







 21st July 2019
161 Crew MCR, recall that in 1995 Anti Fascist Action (AFA) enthusiastically espouses the use of violence, it also set out links with working class communities of the Irish Republican Movement, and stated that members operated primarily within guerrilla structures often referred to as ‘squads’.

Militant Direct Action – AFA was formed by militant activist, who formed squads and took direct militant action against fascist scum, at meetings, homes, workplaces and the streets.

Over the years AFA have proved that the fascists can be kicked off the streets and kept off by physical and ideological confrontation.

Common Purpose – Manchester AFA advocated support for Irish Republicanism. The cross over and cohesion between them appear to have evolved into a single group acting with a common purpose, to smash fascism at their pubs and socials.

Guerrilla Tactics Information suggest the success was in part credited to the guerrilla tactics, by flying columns of squads. Those involved did so, not for glory, back slapping or recognition, they did so as it was and remains to be a social duty.

It appears anonymity was a key element of success.

Egos brings compromise. Considering we are in the era of social media, putting matters on line appears to be counter productive and counter revolutionary. It can be suggested that those seeking to have their egos fed by online status have no place in militant 161.

Public records suggest to have the ego feeder within the ranks creates a security issue for others, put them out!

Organising within a world of CCTV and Social Media requires 161 Squads and them alone to choose the theatre of engagement.

From the 1990 to 2019, militant AFA 161 in Manchester, have and continue to have links to the Irish Republican Movement, it is hoped this working class solidarity will continue.

PRO 161 Crew MCR

_NB: 0161festival.com is a platform for sharing a variety of articles about sports, arts, politics, history and Manchester. This article was sent in and written by a local Manc antifascist on the back of one of our recent podcasts._


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## Smokeandsteam (Jul 26, 2019)

Hello framed 

Good to see you back. If only temporarily


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## The39thStep (Jul 26, 2019)

framed said:


> Hello!  Just popped in to leave this bizarre Walter Mitty piece here (for the record - lol).
> 
> AFA + Irish Republicanism - 0161 Festival
> 
> ...



I can get the drift re anonymity and therefore won’t claim scalps on social media . I can understand that CCTV creates a tactical challenge . I can also get the the idea that 0161 have a cultural wing but tbh I haven’t heard anyone seeing 0161 in any anti fascist activity around the TR NWest  campaign nor have I seen any fash complaining of any full and frank discussions with persons unknown. There’s a small list of c list celebrity fash who just walk around Manchester harassing STUR and holding meetings or birthday parties in bars in the City centre .


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## Red Sky (Jul 26, 2019)

framed said:


> Hello!  Just popped in to leave this bizarre Walter Mitty piece here (for the record - lol).
> 
> AFA + Irish Republicanism - 0161 Festival
> 
> ...



Which language did it start off in?


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## The39thStep (Jul 27, 2019)

About 150-200 on the Manchester Free Tommy demo currently in the Arndale Cenre unopposed.


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## Red Sky (Jul 27, 2019)

The39thStep said:


> About 150-200 on the Manchester Free Tommy demo currently in the Arndale Cenre unopposed.



0161 presumably still in a quandary about which Adidas three stripe to wear today.


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## The39thStep (Jul 27, 2019)

Red Sky said:


> 0161 presumably still in a quandary about which Adidas three stripe to wear today.


Tweeting about their festival


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## LDC (Jul 27, 2019)

Red Sky said:


> 0161 presumably still in a quandary about which Adidas three stripe to wear today.



0161 and Adidas are _so_ last year, it's all about North Pack and the Viking face paint now.


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## Red Sky (Jul 27, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> 0161 and Adidas are _so_ last year, it's all about North Pack and the Viking face paint now.



The Manchester 0161 antifascist lot have always held themselves rather aloof


The39thStep said:


> Tweeting about their festival




No doubt while cunting everyone else off as middle class lifestylist ninjas.


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## The39thStep (Jul 27, 2019)

Red Sky said:


> The Manchester 0161 antifascist lot have always held themselves rather aloof
> 
> 
> 
> No doubt while cunting everyone else off as middle class lifestylist ninjas.


Can put up with aloofness and cunting everyone one else as middle class lifestylist ninjas if they actually engaged with any of the fash walking around Manchester.


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## Proper Tidy (Jul 27, 2019)

I came across somebody on twitter a few years ago (duffy) who was part of this lot. Remember because the tweet I saw was about grassing somebody to their employer and had something snide and anti w/c in (teeth or clothes or something). They seemed very into the ninja stuff was my impression, presumably also linked to the 161 types in Europe (afa in numbers) which also strike me as very consciously antifa/ninja in style


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## chilango (Jul 27, 2019)

There was me thinking 161 was a Manchester phone code reference


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## Proper Tidy (Jul 27, 2019)

chilango said:


> There was me thinking 161 was a Manchester phone code reference


It is, well it's both. There are antifa groups who use 161 elsewhere in Europe (I assume because it's 1st letter 6th letter 1st letter) and there is this manc group which have picked up on it and it being the area code, hence 0161. I think anyway.

Edit 
Tumblr


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## Red Sky (Jul 27, 2019)

The39thStep said:


> Can put up with aloofness and cunting everyone one else as middle class lifestylist ninjas if they actually engaged with any of the fash walking around Manchester.



Well, that was the rub. IdProle nonsense.


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## Red Sky (Jul 27, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> I came across somebody on twitter a few years ago (duffy) who was part of this lot. Remember because the tweet I saw was about grassing somebody to their employer and had something snide and anti w/c in (teeth or clothes or something). They seemed very into the ninja stuff was my impression, presumably also linked to the 161 types in Europe (afa in numbers) which also strike me as very consciously antifa/ninja in style



Don't think she was anything to do with this lot. She was more of an Anontifa type.


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## Proper Tidy (Jul 27, 2019)

Red Sky said:


> Don't think she was anything to do with this lot. She was more of an Anontifa type.


Pretty certain she was, maybe not any more but she used to put up a lot of stuff for the 0161 festival when it first started a few years back

Edit - was always a weird mix of militant antifascist/antifa imagery, support for Irish republicanism, and liberal antifascist tactics eg phoning employers, taking the piss out of people for being unemployed blah


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## The39thStep (Jul 27, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> I came across somebody on twitter a few years ago (duffy) who was part of this lot. Remember because the tweet I saw was about grassing somebody to their employer and had something snide and anti w/c in (teeth or clothes or something). They seemed very into the ninja stuff was my impression, presumably also linked to the 161 types in Europe (afa in numbers) which also strike me as very consciously antifa/ninja in style


They were active on the physical side a couple of years ago maybe even last year. I can understand their thinking about them not being an emergency service for those who get harassed by the fash but won’t confront them.i can understand about them choosing where and when.  However tactically in defeating the fash there have been opportunities and offers of joint work with experienced physical force anti fash for selective action which would at worst have punctured the fash’s confidence and made them wary and at best kept them out of the city centre .


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## framed (Jul 28, 2019)

From a bunker in Salford, the new pretenders to the 'Red Action/AFA tradition' write:



*Manchester 0161 Antifascists*

An important message, passed onto us today by friends in Manchester.

*"Social Duty -* 

161 Crew MCR have repeatedly set out its position regarding how militant anti fascism responds to discharging a social duty.

*Working Class Organising with Trade Unions - *

That social duty has many facets, meaning working class communities must organise from its roots of working class resistance to rise a force that can meet and counter the rise of right wing hatred either on the streets or in their communities.

The communities must look to the Trade Union movement, Labour, and left wing grass roots groups such as Momentum to assist in putting a visible opposition on the streets to counter the right wing presence. This should be well defended but not lead inexperienced members of the public into unnecessary danger or arrest.

When the right wing attacked an RMT picket, at Manchester Victoria Station on the 5th January 2019. We saw working class community mobilisation involving Trade Unions and left wing groups the following week. This demonstrates that relationship already exists, and must be built upon.

*State Controlled Theatre -* 

Groups who set up stalls and put on events should only do so if they are confident of defending themselves. Groups should cease expecting militant anti fascists to attend city centres and play superhero bodyguards.

Such a theatre is controlled by the police both overtly and covertly. It allows for the easy identification of activists by police and often leads to avoidable arrests which would jeopardise the ongoing vital working class community cohesion programmes that activists may be advancing.

*Not an Emergency Service - 
*
161 Crew MCR have repeatedly made clear, the theatre of engagement is chose by them, and them alone. Engaging with fascists should be done when discreet and opportune, in the tradition of Anti Fascist Action / Red Action. The situation is not critical enough to warrant another wave of unnecessary court cases and bail conditions.

*Media -
*
Most propaganda from the right in the modern era takes place online. The streets is no longer the main concern for the right. They know they can reach far more via the web. We cannot no platform someone on YouTube or social media. The answer is to develop an alternative media operation and develop media personalities.

161 Squads are not a rent a mob or some kind of emergency service for the left, and never will be.

We stand with working class communities, to advance community cohesion.


P.R.O. 161 Crew MCR."


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## Red Sky (Jul 28, 2019)

framed said:


> From a bunker in Salford, the new pretenders to the 'Red Action/AFA tradition' write:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Were they not sponsored by some of your crowd? Certainly the impression they gave.


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## Smokeandsteam (Jul 28, 2019)

So is the 0161 group actively engaged in trade union led community organising work? It’s not clear (to me anyway) from that statement


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## framed (Jul 28, 2019)

Red Sky said:


> Were they not sponsored by some of your crowd? Certainly the impression they gave.



Nope. Not ever. There is no link whatsoever between 0161 & what was AFA or Red Action, no former members of AFA and/or RA are involved in 0161, which is why their statements are all the more curious.


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## Red Sky (Jul 28, 2019)

framed said:


> Nope. Not ever. There is no link whatsoever between 0161 & what was AFA or Red Action, no former members of AFA and/or RA are involved in 0161, which is why their statements are all the more curious.



Well they're certainly fanboys of yours.


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## Joe Reilly (Jul 28, 2019)

framed said:


> From a bunker in Salford, the new pretenders to the 'Red Action/AFA tradition' write:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Any group who can draw up a public statement that reads like it has been inexpertly translated from German does not take itself too seriously and no one else should either. Illiterate in every sense of the word.


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## Red Sky (Jul 28, 2019)

Joe Reilly said:


> Any group who can draw up a public statement that reads like it has been inexpertly translated from German does not take itself too seriously and no one else should either. Illiterate in every sense of the word.



You think German? I got a more Slavic vibe from it.


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## imposs1904 (Jul 28, 2019)

Was this book ever released as an e-book?


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## Fallon (Jul 28, 2019)

No.


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## The39thStep (Aug 2, 2019)

0161 posted up on Twitter six Free Tommy banners removed from Salford


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## Red Sky (Aug 2, 2019)

The39thStep said:


> 0161 posted up on Twitter six Free Tommy banners removed from Salford



Magnificent


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## Red Sky (Aug 3, 2019)

Tommy's lot pretty much had the run of London today by all accounts.


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## TopCat (Aug 5, 2019)

The39thStep said:


> Can put up with aloofness and cunting everyone one else as middle class lifestylist ninjas if they actually engaged with any of the fash walking around Manchester.


So this is one of two posts (one on the Tommeh thread) you have made that tilt at advocating more physical confrontation with the far right. It's quite a move. Would you expand on why this/why now?


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## The39thStep (Aug 5, 2019)

TopCat said:


> So this is one of two posts (one on the Tommeh thread) you have made that tilt at advocating more physical confrontation with the far right. It's quite a move. Would you expand on why this/why now?


Fair question Top Cat. I've never been against physical confrontation and like others on here I spent quite a fair few years involved in it . I've always argued a twin track approach of building resilience in working class communities and where required physical opposition. The balance of which depends on both tactical importance and opportunity. The tilt was around late summer last year after discussions with some ex posters on here , on social media and when I was back in the UK around the propensity and the potential for individuals and groups around that time to pysically attack and intimidate the 'left', crossing or blurring the line as it were between right wing and fascism.I still think there are distinctions to be drawn in respect of that. Hope thats helpful. 
I was at the Algarve Stadium last night watching Benfica v Sporting so couldnt post much .


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## Red Sky (Aug 5, 2019)

The39thStep said:


> Fair question Top Cat. I've never been against physical confrontation and like others on here I spent quite a fair few years involved in it . I've always argued a twin track approach of building resilience in working class communities and where required physical opposition. The balance of which depends on both tactical importance and opportunity. The tilt was around late summer last year after discussions with some ex posters on here , on social media and when I was back in the UK around the propensity and the potential for individuals and groups around that time to pysically attack and intimidate the 'left', crossing or blurring the line as it were between right wing and fascism.I still think there are distinctions to be drawn in respect of that. Hope thats helpful.
> I was at the Algarve Stadium last night watching Benfica v Sporting so couldnt post much .



Some of us recognised this threat ten years ago and were generally sneered at by the Old Guard. Hey ho


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## The39thStep (Aug 5, 2019)

Red Sky said:


> Some of us recognised this threat ten years ago and were generally sneered at by the Old Guard. Hey ho


Some of us have a diffrent analysis of that period. Hey Ho


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## Red Sky (Aug 5, 2019)

The39thStep said:


> Some of us have a diffrent analysis of that period. Hey Ho



But you'd agree now that those who had the analysis that the EDL represented a danger and were worthy of a counter reaction were correct?


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## butchersapron (Aug 5, 2019)

An analysis that says the far right are bad is not really an analysis. Its just a worldview.


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## Red Sky (Aug 5, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> An analysis that says the far right are bad is not really an analysis. Its just a worldview.



Who are you ascribing that to?


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 5, 2019)

Red Sky said:


> Who are you ascribing that to?


You - what's this wide-ranging analysis from ten years ago that's been show to be correct today?


----------



## Red Sky (Aug 5, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> You - what's this wide-ranging analysis from ten years ago that's been show to be correct today?



That the EDL represented a return of ultra nationalism to the streets.  That they would end up targeting the left. That they were worth the effort of counter mobilising against.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 5, 2019)

Red Sky said:


> That the EDL represented a return of ultra nationalism to the streets.  That they would end up targeting the left. That they were worth the effort of counter mobilising against.


By - at that point - a return of serve - by a gym based counter-group (never got close to happening btw soppy liberals always far outweighed any physical approach and had more durable effect)? Or is the claim that the EDL are driving the post 2008 political chaos? Is there no room for a dynamic between those early 'correct' as you see it responses and what the core of that group became?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2019)

Red Sky said:


> That the EDL represented a return of ultra nationalism to the streets.  That they would end up targeting the left. That they were worth the effort of counter mobilising against.


they weren't the first by any means, for example the united british alliance of the mid-2000s who were effectively a pre-cursor of the edl


----------



## Red Sky (Aug 5, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> You - what's this wide-ranging analysis from ten years ago that's been show to be





butchersapron said:


> By - at that point - a return of serve - by a gym based counter-group (never got close to happening btw soppy liberals always far outweighed any physical approach and had more durable effect)? Or is the claim that the EDL are driving the post 2008 political chaos? Is there no room for a dynamic between those early 'correct' as you see it responses and what the core of that group became?



Are you starting earlier and earlier in the day? Bit worried tbh.


----------



## Red Sky (Aug 5, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> they weren't the first by any means, for example the united british alliance of the mid-2000s who were effectively a pre-cursor of the edl



The EDL were a shocker because of the size of their demos and their decisive break with old school fascism.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 5, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> they weren't the first by any means, for example the united british alliance of the mid-2000s who were effectively a pre-cursor of the edl


Yes, another point - an _analysis _would start probably with the UBA and what they represented as regards the big coming issues. And and early _left _response was formulated and then drowended in claims of racism and islamophobia.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2019)

Red Sky said:


> The EDL were a shocker because of the size of their demos and their decisive break with old school fascism.


very much so. there'd been hints of something like that on the cards from the uba which made many of the same noises - not racist etc - but i don't think anyone anticipated the events in luton turning into a mass movement as it did.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 5, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> Yes, another point - an _analysis _would start probably with the UBA and what they represented as regards the big coming issues. And and early _left _response was formulated and then drowended in claims of racism and islamophobia.


Correct. Many on the left were more bothered about confronting British and American foreign policy abroad  than they were  about confronting the Islamacists here. Same as the grooming stuff the left abstained and the far right never got their foot out of the door.


----------



## Red Sky (Aug 5, 2019)

The39thStep said:


> Correct. Many on the left were more bothered about confronting British and American foreign policy abroad  than they were  about confronting the Islamacists here. Same as the grooming stuff the left abstained and the far right never got their foot out of the door.



What did you do to confront the Islamists at this point?


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 5, 2019)

Red Sky said:


> What did you do to confront the Islamists at this point?





butchersapron said:


> Yes, another point - an _analysis _would start probably with the UBA and what they represented as regards the big coming issues. And and early _left _response was formulated and then drowended in claims of racism and islamophobia.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 5, 2019)

Red Sky said:


> What did you do to confront the Islamists at this point?


Is there some point at which you _have_ confronted the islamists then?  But the UBA demo and counter-fundi one that had the one and only fuck both you things thing would count in the sussex gyms?

The point there was the tying together of the two and what was lost. By anti-fascism as a _brand _of course.


----------



## Red Sky (Aug 5, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> Is there some point at which you _have_ confronted the islamists then?  But the UBA demo and counter-fundi one that had the one and only fuck both you things thing would count in the sussex gyms?



Seriously- this is pure gibberish. Have a coffee or something.


----------



## framed (Aug 6, 2019)

Red Sky, the points you make might have greater resonance were it not for some of those who have followed your analysis for the last ten years now backing away from street activity they previously advocated to play little kids' games with ninja ski-masks, flares, smokes & graffiti in grrrr-ing photos that relate to nothing. The same type of people who are not even football supporters but who went out of their way to take a group from Manchester to London to lick the arses of the Athletic Bilbao fans who were at West Ham on Saturday. Just down the road was much of the same far-right movement that this lot have been telling us 'old guard' to confront for the last decade - and cunting us off for criticising their then much flawed political analysis. We step in and they step out. 

All that wasted propaganda about the 'old men' being 'past it' & 'shithouses' not quite living up to reality, or comparison.


----------



## Red Sky (Aug 6, 2019)

framed said:


> Red Sky, the points you make might have greater resonance were it not for some of those who have followed your analysis for the last ten years now backing away from street activity they previously advocated to play little kids' games with ninja ski-masks, flares, smokes & graffiti in grrrr-ing photos that relate to nothing. The same type of people who are not even football supporters but who went out of their way to take a group from Manchester to London to lick the arses of the Athletic Bilbao fans who were at West Ham on Saturday. Just down the road was much of the same far-right movement that this lot have been telling us 'old guard' to confront for the last decade - and cunting us off for criticising their then much flawed political analysis. We step in and they step out.
> 
> All that wasted propaganda about the 'old men' being 'past it' & 'shithouses' not quite living up to reality, or comparison.



I think you're lumping a few groups of people together there. There's always been a subset of LARPers around - that's where the smoke flares and stuff come in. Not really my bag. 

I know fuck all about football and I'm not that interested in it tbh .

Who called the "Old men" "shithouses"?


----------



## framed (Aug 6, 2019)

Red Sky said:


> I think you're lumping a few groups of people together there. There's always been a subset of LARPers around - that's where the smoke flares and stuff come in. Not really my bag.
> 
> I know fuck all about football and I'm not that interested in it tbh .
> 
> Who called the "Old men" "shithouses"?



Your diversionary question doesn't matter, the point is that - in spite of their claims to be from the 'Red Action/AFA' tradition and your labeling of them on this page as 'fanboys', in actual fact they hate Red Action and are founded upon opposing principles; they're not democratic, they run their festival, gigs & organisation as a limited company with only two directors & they incorrectly place anti-fascist links with Irish republicanism as an overriding principle. They're not 'fanboys' they are a deliberate distortion & caricature of AFA. The more pertinent questions for all of us should be why they're trying to present themselves as such and why one of the founders of this organisation continues to make false claims about his own past political affiliations either for the purpose of enhancing his personal reputation and/or as part of a wider scheme to discredit anti-fascists, Irish republicans & other related figures in the labour movement. The public placing of 0161 in the 'tradition of Red Action & AFA' is a deliberate ploy to create a body of circumstantial evidence for a bigger sting at a later point. They've been sussed. There are string pullers & unwitting dupes who've been involved in 'setting the scene' over a long period of time. But they're not the only ones who've been collating evidence. 

This post isn't about you Red Sky so don't assume that I will answer anything you put to me, it's a message to them.


----------



## Red Sky (Aug 6, 2019)

framed said:


> Your diversionary question doesn't matter, the point is that - in spite of their claims to be from the 'Red Action/AFA' tradition and your labeling of them on this page as 'fanboys', in actual fact they hate Red Action and are founded upon opposing principles; they're not democratic, they run their festival, gigs & organisation as a limited company with only two directors & they incorrectly place anti-fascist links with Irish republicanism as an overriding principle. They're not 'fanboys' they are a deliberate distortion & caricature of AFA. The more pertinent questions for all of us should be why they're trying to present themselves as such and why one of the founders of this organisation continues to make false claims about his own past political affiliations either for the purpose of enhancing his personal reputation and/or as part of a wider scheme to discredit anti-fascists, Irish republicans & other related figures in the labour movement. The public placing of 0161 in the 'tradition of Red Action & AFA' is a deliberate ploy to create a body of circumstantial evidence for a bigger sting at a later point. They've been sussed. There are string pullers & unwitting dupes who've been involved in 'setting the scene' over a long period of time. But they're not the only ones who've been collating evidence.
> 
> This post isn't about you Red Sky so don't assume that I will answer anything you put to me, it's a message to them.



All I would say then is that they are nothing to do with my analysis or the AFN.


----------



## framed (Aug 6, 2019)

Red Sky said:


> All I would say then is that they are nothing to do with my analysis or the AFN.



Like 39th Step, I'd still go with the IWCA analysis at that time, but I also accept that the IWCA was organisationally incapable of implementing its own strategy in working class communities. What we're attempting to do in football now is at least a partial recognition that we need grassroots working class organisation if we are serious about making real political change and that can't be done from the outside looking in and simply dismissing everything that does not accord with a particular worldview. I'm working alongside people from AFN & ex-AFN, as well as working class football hooligans who've never been politically active before, so whatever your analysis was ten years ago it's pretty much irrelevant now, unless you want to sow divisions among those who are now involved in united actions against fascists?


----------



## Red Sky (Aug 6, 2019)

> ="framed, post: 16154183, member: 50923", so whatever your analysis was ten years ago it's pretty much irrelevant now, unless you want to sow divisions among those who are now involved in united actions against fascists?



A enlightened position which I applaud and can only hope will be emulated.


----------



## TopCat (Aug 14, 2019)

I'm interested to discuss more about why now and just who is prepared to throw their weight and influence into (hopefully) a new AFA. 
I'm up for it though. Might have to let the young ones get up the front. 
I'm willing to compromise, work with anyone. 
All I ask in return is no more fucking chants of Alerta! Please?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 14, 2019)

TopCat said:


> I'm interested to discuss more about why now and just who is prepared to throw their weight and influence into (hopefully) a new AFA.
> I'm up for it though. Might have to let the young ones get up the front.
> I'm willing to compromise, work with anyone.
> All I ask in return is no more fucking chants of Alerta! Please?


i'd second that especially the bit about alerta


----------



## Red Sky (Aug 14, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> i'd second that especially the bit about alerta



I liked "We are the Reds".


----------



## Proper Tidy (Aug 14, 2019)

Alerta alerta pro working classista

Would be interested to see what happens if you stuck an amazon echo in with the ninjas


----------



## Fallon (Aug 14, 2019)

TopCat said:


> I'm interested to discuss more about why now and just who is prepared to throw their weight and influence into (hopefully) a new AFA.
> I'm up for it though. Might have to let the young ones get up the front.
> I'm willing to compromise, work with anyone.
> All I ask in return is no more fucking chants of Alerta! Please?



Football Lads Against Fascism is the nearest thing to the 'AFA model' that I have seen.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Aug 14, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> i'd second that especially the bit about alerta



Why do they sing heartily about some Peruvian city?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 14, 2019)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Why do they sing heartily about some Peruvian city?


I am puzzled too


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Aug 14, 2019)

_ Grimsby, Grimsby, Antifascists int we!_ is perhaps equally as ridiculous but at least may be understood by anyone listening.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 14, 2019)

Magnus McGinty said:


> _ Grimsby, Grimsby, Antifascists int we!_ is perhaps equally as ridiculous but at least may be understood by anyone listening.


There is nothing ridiculous about grimsby

Town did well yesterday, knocking donny rovers out the cup


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Aug 14, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> There is nothing ridiculous about grimsby
> 
> Town did well yesterday, knocking donny rovers out the cup



Just thinking of shit alt lyrics.

_Mexico, Mexico, we’re Njnjas dontcha know!_


----------



## M Testa (Aug 14, 2019)

TopCat said:


> Might have to let the young ones get up the front...
> All I ask in return is no more fucking chants of Alerta! Please?



& of 'Nartzi scum, off our streets, avenues & cul-de-sacs.'


----------



## M Testa (Aug 14, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> There is nothing ridiculous about grimsby. Town did well yesterday, knocking donny rovers out the cup


also, Grimsby has proper chippies making proper chips in proper dripping. although many owners give it up after the 2nd coronary.


----------



## Red Sky (Aug 14, 2019)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Just thinking of shit alt lyrics.
> 
> _Mexico, Mexico, we’re Njnjas dontcha know!_



"We're Reading, we're Reading, we're going to kick your heads in"


----------



## M Testa (Aug 16, 2019)

not read this yet, but maybe worth a keek:

The Imagined Folk of England: Whiteness, Folk Music and Fascism


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 18, 2019)

Goddard and co turned up at the Peterloo march in Manchester today.


----------



## Red Sky (Aug 18, 2019)

The39thStep said:


> Goddard and co turned up at the Peterloo march in Manchester today.



Confident. Got to give him that.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 18, 2019)

Red Sky said:


> Confident. Got to give him that.


They've been allowed to walk around unopposed for over a year now so gradually getting cocky. One person had a go but wheres the back up?


----------



## Red Sky (Aug 18, 2019)

The39thStep said:


> They've been allowed to walk around unopposed for over a year now so gradually getting cocky. One person had a go but wheres the back up?




Dunno.  I'm guessing you live round there?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Aug 18, 2019)

Ah, out comes the stock response.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 18, 2019)

The39thStep said:


> They've been allowed to walk around unopposed for over a year now so gradually getting cocky. One person had a go but wheres the back up?



Surprised the 0161 mob didn't have this covered


----------



## Red Sky (Aug 18, 2019)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Ah, out comes the stock response.



Which is unreasonable why?


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 18, 2019)

Red Sky said:


> Dunno.  I'm guessing you live round there?


Used to.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Aug 18, 2019)

Red Sky said:


> Which is unreasonable why?



 Well, he doesn’t live there for starters.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 18, 2019)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Well, he doesn’t live there for starters.


When I watch motd and a striker breaks forward but there's no one in the box to receive the cross, you regularly hear the commentators say 'Where's the backup?' - same here, you don't need to live or work in Manchester to pose the question.


----------



## framed (Aug 19, 2019)

Hope Not Hate & their proxies in 0161 would've been too busy helping the 32CSM to establish a North Pack ASU in Islington with members of Red Londonderry in tow. When you're running a public limited company as a fake community organisation, who cares about such trivial matters as fascists in Manchester City Centre?


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 19, 2019)

I had an interesting spat with the 32csm lot when I pointed out that Goddard and the Manchester Collective had had a free reign in Manchester City Centre for over a year. Got called a grass for reposting a video clip of Goddard allegedly getting coffee thrown over him and receiving a head none of which was actually in the video. 
Apparently according to 32csm we can be rest assured that despite CCTV action has been taken ‘behind the scenes’. Despite this action ‘behind the scenes’ Lawrence , English, Jolting Jim , Goddard and the other flotsam and jetsom feel confident enough to turn up and harass the Peterloo commemoration and the left on a regular basis. Let’s be frank , they wouldn’t be in the city centre if there was any opposition either in the city centre or outside the city centre. Unlike Liverpool there was no real effort by anti fascists to physically oppose the TR campaign in Manchester . Anti fascists need to start from scratch in Manchester . There’s something not quite right and it’s not just the usual shortcomings of SUTR.


----------



## Red Sky (Aug 19, 2019)

The39thStep said:


> I had an interesting spat with the 32csm lot when I pointed out that Goddard and the Manchester Collective had had a free reign in Manchester City Centre for over a year. Got called a grass for reposting a video clip of Goddard allegedly getting coffee thrown over him and receiving a head none of which was actually in the video.
> Apparently according to 32csm we can be rest assured that despite CCTV action has been taken ‘behind the scenes’. Despite this action ‘behind the scenes’ Lawrence , English, Jolting Jim , Goddard and the other flotsam and jetsom feel confident enough to turn up and harass the Peterloo commemoration and the left on a regular basis. Let’s be frank , they wouldn’t be in the city centre if there was any opposition either in the city centre or outside the city centre. Unlike Liverpool there was no real effort by anti fascists to physically oppose the TR campaign in Manchester . Anti fascists need to start from scratch in Manchester . There’s something not quite right and it’s not just the usual shortcomings of SUTR.



Difference of approach really. Merseyside AFN adopted a strategy of broad based militant action which has never been in vogue in Manchester.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 19, 2019)

Red Sky said:


> Difference of approach really. Merseyside AFN adopted a strategy of broad based militant action which has never been in vogue in Manchester.


Pre AFN days we had both mass action and targeted action in Manchester . This occurred during the NF days right up to the BNP. Even with the EDF there was still both . We can bang on about the failings of SUTR but my question is what’s happened to those who ‘owned’ the targeted action? It’s a weird situation where there are anti fascist gigs, walks etc but no anti fascist action ?


----------



## jimmer (Aug 20, 2019)

The39thStep said:


> It’s a weird situation where there are anti fascist gigs, walks etc but no anti fascist action ?


Even weirder when the crew organising the gigs and walks regularly posts pictures of themselves in balaclavas.


----------



## framed (Aug 20, 2019)

The '0161 Squads' will sort everything out, they come in woolly faced disguise, waving the St George's Cross & wearing 'legal observer' bibs. They're taking selfies,"in the tradition of Red Action & AFA."


----------



## framed (Aug 21, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> There is nothing ridiculous about grimsby
> 
> Town did well yesterday, knocking donny rovers out the cup



Speaking of which...


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 21, 2019)

framed said:


> Speaking of which... View attachment 181603


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Aug 24, 2019)

Some reflections on local anti-fascist struggles in South London in 1991

An interesting reflective account from a friend. I'm sure there will be some different views and recollections from others...


----------



## Fedayn (Aug 27, 2019)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Some reflections on local anti-fascist struggles in South London in 1991
> 
> An interesting reflective account from a friend. I'm sure there will be some different views and recollections from others...



Interesting to see Nick Marsh on a pic, wonder if he likes those images being reproduced since he rejected-apparebtly-his former racial comrades rather angrily as I remember.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 27, 2019)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Some reflections on local anti-fascist struggles in South London in 1991
> 
> An interesting reflective account from a friend. I'm sure there will be some different views and recollections from others...


someone i used to know was on that national black caucus march and he said it was absolutely terrifying, that the nbc led them into a fucking trap, it's something which i've never forgotten given the way he described it


----------



## Fedayn (Aug 27, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> someone i used to know was on that national black caucus march and he said it was absolutely terrifying, that the nbc led them into a fucking trap, it's something which i've never forgotten given the way he described it



Aye, a few mates said similar. One was on the Rohit Duggal march in Welling the following year and given all the talk about that said the NBC march was far dodgier and far less 'protected'.


----------



## TopCat (Aug 27, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> someone i used to know was on that national black caucus march and he said it was absolutely terrifying, that the nbc led them into a fucking trap, it's something which i've never forgotten given the way he described it


The one into Bermondsy? I blame Jasper for that.


----------



## framed (Aug 28, 2019)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Some reflections on local anti-fascist struggles in South London in 1991
> 
> An interesting reflective account from a friend. I'm sure there will be some different views and recollections from others...



Well that was a long and rambling path to nowhere... His/her/it's perceptions (and that is what they are - perceptions not truths) of the internal workings & leadership of AFA are well wide of the mark. Just another excuse to have digs at the big baddies of Red Action, although I'd wager that in Bermondsey at the NBC march she/he'd have been glad to see some of those same 'burgeoning Leninists' at his/her side. They were there & give a more accurate account in BTF.


----------



## TopCat (Aug 28, 2019)

TopCat said:


> The one into Bermondsy? I blame Jasper for that.


Further, it always pissed me off that BTF called all the Millwall who opposed that Bermondsey incursion fash. It was simply not true.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Oct 2, 2019)

_Beating The Fascists_ is now on sale at Freedom's website for £11 + P&P. 

They also have a pre-order offer on their new book on National Action by a former AFA member:
sale


----------



## Fallon (Oct 19, 2019)

Reading extracts like this on the IWCAs social media page make me want to read BTF again..


----------



## cantsin (Oct 19, 2019)

thought exactly the same... just have to stay well away from the rest of their stuff on there


----------



## cantsin (Oct 19, 2019)

really didn't wanted to get sucked down this partic wormhole tnite / was trying to do sthn else, but have to say am looking fwd to Liam O's tome   ( late/still of this parish ? prob too busy actually writing a book n' stuff ) if this is anything to go by ( can't remember if this was on here b4 ) - fairplay / good luck to him, sounds imminent ?


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 19, 2019)

cantsin said:


> really didn't wanted to get sucked down this partic wormhole tnite / was trying to do sthn else, but have to say am looking fwd to Liam O's tome   ( late/still of this parish ? prob too busy actually writing a book n' stuff ) if this is anything to go by ( can't remember if this was on here b4 ) - fairplay / good luck to him, sounds imminent ?



I read another bit about Ian Stewart in a pub


----------



## cantsin (Oct 19, 2019)

The39thStep said:


> I read another bit about Ian Stewart in a pub



yeah, vague memories of it


----------



## framed (Oct 25, 2019)

The39thStep said:


> I read another bit about Ian Stewart in a pub



This one...


----------



## cantsin (Oct 26, 2019)

nice, vague memories of this one now... had forgotten Matty Blagg was so active, fairplay to him ( + RIP )


----------



## 19force8 (Nov 20, 2019)

Not strictly relevant here, but as it's a bit late to start a "Why the National Front is Going Down the Pan" thread it will have to do.

This photo of the NF remembrance sunday "after everybody else has buggered off" wreath laying at the Cenotaph made me chuckle:







According to HnH the two black women were innocent passers by who just decided to show their respect for the war dead as the wreaths were laid.

It's almost as heartwarming as seeing how few they are these days:






Compared with only five years ago:






"_Something something_" about missing the boat on modern internet "grift fascism"


----------



## Fallon (Dec 6, 2019)

I haven't listened to this yet but seen this podcast advertised by people behind 0161festival (I believe) 

We do things differently *NEW EPISODE*

Life long Anti Fascist and AFA member Toddy in the studio. Toddy shares some of his amazing stories on how the AFA network grew to what we know of it today. In this special episode Toddy tells us inside stories of the many things that AFA have done throughout the years, from fighting fascists to laying the ground work for better community cohesion. 

Listen in below >>>>>

0161 Podcast - We Do Things Differently Ep. 5 - Toddy


----------



## framed (Dec 6, 2019)

Fallon said:


> I haven't listened to this yet but seen this podcast advertised by people behind 0161festival (I believe)
> 
> We do things differently *NEW EPISODE*
> 
> ...



*EDIT: Apologies. 'Toddy' is not the person I originally thought of from Manchester AFA who disgraced himself in Glasgow, he was not active in AFA after that incident - similar nickname, but different person. I am however assured that the 'Toddy' interviewed has a less than distinguished history & the general criticism still applies in relation to this interview & 0161.*

Just reiterates that 0161 is at the very least politically flawed, if not completely bent.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 6, 2019)

Found some of that intersting tbh , I remember him vaguely.  I'm sure 0161 are doing great things in the community, great gigs, walking tours, podcasts etc  but the one thing they aint doing is the group of fascists who walk around with impunity , and have done for a good year or more, in Manchester city centre.


----------



## framed (Dec 6, 2019)

The39thStep said:


> Found some of that intersting tbh , I remember him vaguely.  I'm sure 0161 are doing great things in the community, great gigs, walking tours, podcasts etc  but the one thing they aint doing is the group of fascists who walk around with impunity , and have done for a good year or more, in Manchester city centre.



Dave Hann brought him back in. He is more of a Searchlight fellow traveller than anything else. Huge gaps in his account of his "40 years of anti-fascism" because he disappeared for years at a time & popped up again when certain people found him to be a useful stooge. A bit like this interview being convenient for the agenda of 0161 - if this is the type of 'AFA veteran' that they seek endorsement from, they are double-bent imho.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 6, 2019)

framed said:


> He has no redeeming qualities for me, a complete knob who behaved disgustingly in Glasgow. We were assured that he was finished with AFA after that, but Dave Hann brought him back in. He was more of a Searchlight fellow traveller than anything else. Huge gaps in his account of his "40 years of anti-fascism" because he disappeared for years at a time & popped up again when certain people found him to be a useful stooge. A bit like this interview being convenient for the agenda of 0161 - if this is the type of 'AFA veteran' that they seek endorsement from, they are double-bent imho.


I don't know the bloke or 0161. It's clear that red action people dont like either and are happy to try and have it out here.

Spell out the perceived agenda of 0161. Recognise you might have a way to go to counter perceptions that RA people just cant take the lack of control when others organise, write or speak. Given how many were involved on the periphery of AFA, this can grate.


----------



## framed (Dec 6, 2019)

TopCat said:


> I don't know the bloke or 0161. It's clear that red action people dont like either and are happy to try and have it out here.
> 
> Spell out the perceived agenda of 0161. Recognise you might have a way to go to counter perceptions that RA people just cant take the lack of control when others organise, write or speak. Given how many were involved on the periphery of AFA, this can grate.



The truth is coming post-election, there are aspects of 0161's agenda that would impact on the Labour Party were we to reveal the full extent of the operation at this point. It has all the hallmarks of a Hope Not Hate front, which also extends to dissident republicanism in the Manchester area. It's not only former Red Action personnel who have raised questions about them, there are anti-fascists from the anarchist movement who also have serious questions about them. 0161 is a honeypot designed to demobilise militants & divert them into 'fight clubs' & inneffective (and often imaginary) 'community projects' for the already converted, not to moblise against fascism. In 7 years we are yet to hear of a single confrontation with fascists by 0161, so can you explain to me what it's about? Without grating, of course.


----------



## LDC (Dec 6, 2019)

framed said:


> The truth is coming post-election, there are aspects of 0161's agenda that would impact on the Labour Party were we to reveal the full extent of the operation at this point. It has all the hallmarks of a Hope Not Hate front, which also extends to dissident republicanism in the Manchester area. It's not only former Red Action personnel who have raised questions about them, there are anti-fascists from the anarchist movement who also have serious questions about them. 0161 is a honeypot designed to demobilise militants & divert them into 'fight clubs' & inneffective (and often imaginary) 'community projects' for the already converted, not to moblise against fascism. In 7 years we are yet to hear of a single confrontation with fascists by 0161, so can you explain to me what it's about? Without grating, of course.



Really? that sounds very conspiratorial to me. Isn't the truth that they're more just a gang of the youth with a tendency towards Stalinism and self promotion?


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 6, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Really? that sounds very conspiratorial to me. Isn't the truth that they're more just a gang of the youth with a tendency towards Stalinism and self promotion?


Framed has a point , they have openly tied themselves to dissident republicans who counter terrorism will be all over . Couldn’t give a toss to be honest if they are Stalinist, Trots or an Anarchist flavour , they’ve effectively demobilised any direct anti fascism against Goddard , Lawrence and other Fash in Manchester . If you listen to the podcast they have a go at SUTR for not canvassing the area in Salford that TR visited but they’ve never been canvassing on the estate themselves .


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 8, 2019)

Here's one for 0161 . Brexit Party candidate in Blackley , North Manchester is James Buckley otherwise known as Jim Edwards. 'Jolting' Jim is a known Britain First member, Mosley supporter and side kick of James Goddard as well as having a 'recreational problem'. Was canvassing outside Asda in Harpurhey Saturday.


----------



## krink (Dec 31, 2019)

Just read this, it's really a Corbyn puff-piece but I'd love to hear from anyone who was there on the day who could let me know the veracity of the accounts in the piece. A few people named who I don't know of and a mention for Stuart Hall.
Remembering the Battle of Wood Green


----------



## DaSpecialBranch (Feb 17, 2020)

Have a gander at Galloway's new party, odd stuff:

*








						Introducing the Workers Party
					

LEADER: George Galloway :: Deputy leader: Joti Brar George Galloway and Joti Brar at the launch meeting of the Workers Party, 7 December 2019 Our vision: Economically radical with an independent fo…




					workerspartybritain.org
				



*


----------



## tony.c (Feb 17, 2020)

krink said:


> Just read this, it's really a Corbyn puff-piece but I'd love to hear from anyone who was there on the day who could let me know the veracity of the accounts in the piece. A few people named who I don't know of and a mention for Stuart Hall.
> Remembering the Battle of Wood Green





I was there. We weren't sure of how things would go.Previous NF marches had been countered by anti-fascists walking alongside the marchers, separated by the police cordon on both sides of the march. There would just be jeering, heckling and abuse of the marchers. This time there was a more militant and determined attitude by the anti-fascists encouraged by a good turnout of local young people, mainly young Turkish lads.
The tone for the day was set as soon as the NF march emerged from the park they met in, and Peter Chappell, a local who organised the 'George Davis is innocent' campaign steamed into the NF 'Colour Party' on his own. All we could see was Union Jack flags going up into the air as their holders went down. Pete was quickly arrested but he had made it clear that this fascist march would be opposed by more than just words.

The last line of the account above is not true. I've heard it repeated by SWP members who take it as gospel that a group of young black kids came running round a corner from a side road and took shoes from a couple of baskets outside a shoe shop to throw into the march. Actually an Asian 'squad member' first picked up a couple of shoes and hurled them, they were the only missiles to hand. Young Turkish guys who were near him followed his lead and the baskets were quickly emptied as the shoes rained down on the NF marchers. It was the first time they had encountered any physical opposition and the mainly older respectable marchers looked cowed and scared. The shoes probably didn't do much damage, but a bit further down the road a building site provided more substantial ammunition and the anti-fascists used it to good effect.
The lead had been given for militant physical opposition to future fascist mobilisations, which would scare of the softer periphery. The next big confrontation would be the 'Battle of Lewisham' and we knew it would be the 'big one'.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Feb 17, 2020)

DaSpecialBranch said:


> Have a gander at Galloway's new party, odd stuff:
> 
> *
> 
> ...



Why have you posted this on a thread about AFA?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 17, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Why have you posted this on a thread about AFA?


Bold for a first post, for sure


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Feb 17, 2020)

DaveCinzano said:


> Bold for a first post, for sure



They’ve posted here previously so no idea why that doesn’t show - maybe the upgrade has messed with that data?
Also, I know this person. It isn’t some random drive by.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Feb 17, 2020)

Magnus McGinty said:


> They’ve posted here previously so no idea why that doesn’t show - maybe the upgrade has messed with that data?
> Also, I know this person. It isn’t some random drive by.



maybe you can explain then? What’s Galloway’s new party got to do with AFA or BTF?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Feb 17, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> maybe you can explain then? What’s Galloway’s new party got to do with AFA or BTF?



sorry officer, you’ll have to interrogate the accused.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Feb 17, 2020)

How’s about you take the iced lollipop out of your arse?


----------



## DaSpecialBranch (Feb 17, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Why have you posted this on a thread about AFA?


Not everything on here is to do with AFA though, is it? Reading this thread, loads of things are discussed, not just AFA or BtF. This stopped being a strictly AFA thread ages ago. Besides, this thread has shit loads of traffic anyway.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Feb 17, 2020)

DaSpecialBranch said:


> Not everything on here is to do with AFA though, is it? Reading this thread, loads of things are discussed, not just AFA or BtF. This stopped being a strictly AFA thread ages ago. Besides, this thread has shit loads of traffic anyway.



I’d suggest any one of the many threads about Galloway on the P&P forum might have got more interest in your post?

Anyway, I’ve got no interest in him or his Stalinist pals so I’ll leave you to it.


----------



## DaSpecialBranch (Feb 17, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I’d suggest any one of the many threads about Galloway on the P&P forum might have got more interest in your post?
> 
> Anyway, I’ve got no interest in him or his Stalinist pals so I’ll leave you to it.


I'm still a novice in the U75 world (Only posted on here once or twice) so, thanks for the tip.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Feb 17, 2020)

DaSpecialBranch said:


> I'm still a novice in the U75 world (Only posted on here once or twice) so, thanks for the tip.



Fair play mate. If you type ‘George Galloway’ in the search box on U75, tick ‘titles only’ you’ll get 4 pages worth to have a look at. There are a number of posters on here who like to discuss GG


----------



## cantsin (Feb 18, 2020)

DaSpecialBranch said:


> Not everything on here is to do with AFA though, is it? Reading this thread, loads of things are discussed, not just AFA or BtF. This stopped being a strictly AFA thread ages ago. Besides, this thread has shit loads of traffic anyway.



cldnt find whether you had posted on this elsewhere ? Workers Party deffo needs discussing imo, peeling off cranks from left Lab ( good riddance ) and edging towards red-brown territory if GG + wife’s  ( check her twitter ) direction of travel anything to go by


----------



## krink (Feb 20, 2020)

Thanks tony.c appreciate your reply.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Mar 3, 2020)

An Anti Fascist Action (AFA) day out in London, Part One
					

The following is probably a bit self-indulgent of Gombeen Man. But it’s an interesting, true story, set in a time when he was an economic mi...




					gombeennation.blogspot.com
				



.





__





						An Anti-Fascist day out in London, Part Two
					

This is a continuation of "An Anti-Fascist Action day out in London, Part One"   Part Two   So. You are in a packed District Line carriage ...




					gombeennation.blogspot.com


----------



## miktheword (May 25, 2020)

Just noticed this quick read in guardian. Only a few of the 43 group now left. 
Some choice quotes, not just about the justifiable and necessary physical, but about the establishment attitudes, including Board of Deputies.

_“For a moment, I was dazed, disorientated. My assailant was about to close and finish me off when Sam grabbed him around the neck and pulled him to the ground. Then Sam jumped on him. The genial, good-humoured Sam said, ‘I’m just breaking the bastard’s ribs so he won’t attend any more meetings.’”  😄

Not everyone was in favour of the 43 Group’s approach. “The Board of Deputies [of British Jews] was keen to keep them in check,” said Sonabend. “They tried to close it down. The establishment did not want anything that could bring Jews into disrepute or encourage more antisemitism. They saw any form of lawbreaking and violence as deeply problematic.
“The response of 43 Group – which had raised a lot of money and plenty of prominent Jewish supporters – was to say the board was more worried about the reputation than the safety of the Jewish community_.”










						The British Jews who fought postwar fascism on London's streets
					

‘43 Group’ battled rightwing thugs who continued to torment them even after defeat of the Nazi regime




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Fallon (Jun 15, 2020)

Great read.


----------



## Red Sky (Jun 16, 2020)

Fallon said:


> Great read.




Good stuff.  Nice non sectarian post.


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 16, 2020)

aye but saying that its hard not to talk about Britains first sectarian roots and a few group that still associated with it ie the EDL and the DFLA

more so these groups misuse of the poppy image  to drag in less informed people and ex forces

tis a shit show


----------



## Red Storm (Aug 8, 2020)

Red Action- a little pre-history
					

Former Red Action supporters have done an amazing job in putting together the Red Action Archive- and saved us the trouble of having to scan copies of the RA paper! However, we can now bring you th…




					splitsandfusions.wordpress.com
				




The document they’ve found - the news the socialist worker forgot is particularly interesting.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2020)

Red Storm said:


> Red Action- a little pre-history
> 
> 
> Former Red Action supporters have done an amazing job in putting together the Red Action Archive- and saved us the trouble of having to scan copies of the RA paper! However, we can now bring you th…
> ...


Good to see you posting again


----------



## Red Storm (Aug 8, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Good to see you posting again



Thanks mate. Just catching up on what I’ve missed


----------



## Fallon (Aug 30, 2020)

Anti-Fascist Action was an important organisation that took a position of fighting the far right on the streets as well as combatting their ideas politically wherever they arose. Founded in 1985, AFA effectively ceased to exist around 2000-2001.

Here’s an account of Anti-Fascist Action in their own words, published in 1999, as the organisation was in effect winding up – or as they saw it, moving on to other arenas of the struggle against fascism…
Some thoughts in AFA and their winding up follow their text.









						Today in London anti-fascist history, 1985: Anti Fascist Action founded, ‘to fight fascism  physically & politically’
					

Anti-Fascist Action was an important organisation that took a position of fighting the far right on the streets as well as combatting their ideas politically wherever they arose. Founded in 1985, A…




					pasttenseblog.wordpress.com


----------



## Shechemite (Aug 31, 2020)

Given the turn against ‘street marches’ from the ‘intellectual’ (and more extreme) element of the far right, and the growth of the ‘we know it’s mental but it works’ conspiracy lot (eg Piers Corbyn: From International Marxist Group to Red-Brown Charlatan.), what role does physical anti-fascism have now?


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Aug 31, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Given the turn against ‘street marches’ from the ‘intellectual’ (and more extreme) element of the far right, and the growth of the ‘we know it’s mental but it works’ conspiracy lot (eg Piers Corbyn: From International Marxist Group to Red-Brown Charlatan.), what role does physical anti-fascism have now?



Well there is also this sort of thing:


----------



## Shechemite (Aug 31, 2020)

The master race 

“I began to grow increasingly nervous. It dawned on me that our first banner drop location was directly outside New Scotland Yard”


----------



## Shechemite (Aug 31, 2020)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Well there is also this sort of thing:




Cheers.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Aug 31, 2020)

cantsin said:


> cldnt find whether you had posted on this elsewhere ? Workers Party deffo needs discussing imo, peeling off cranks from left Lab ( good riddance ) and edging towards red-brown territory if GG + wife’s  ( check her twitter ) direction of travel anything to go by


I am very interested in the whole red/brown thing with the Worker's Party and Galloway. Any useful links to provide evidence of this? I'm not doubting what you are posting, would just like some clear proof, would be useful.


----------



## Shechemite (Aug 31, 2020)

Gilad Atzmon 
Assange 
Scottish nationalism 
Flirting (or more) with British nationalism 
Raul Moat


----------



## krink (Sep 1, 2020)

Irish anti-fascists need to squash this before it grows - looks like mostly young lads to me


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 1, 2020)

Gardai scum not commie scum.


----------



## cantsin (Sep 2, 2020)

Count Cuckula said:


> I am very interested in the whole red/brown thing with the Worker's Party and Galloway. Any useful links to provide evidence of this? I'm not doubting what you are posting, would just like some clear proof, would be useful.



in terms of GG's Wife / co presenter of his RT show, just a quick scroll, and the tone of her twitter feed speaks for itself - incessant pro family / pro authoritarian / v terfy, but then even on to BLM scepticism : 

(check the replies to this, which she was fishing for, obviously )



Workers GB - the "Economically radical and against imperialist war " tagline again points to where they are on socials issues - doesn't add up to Red-Brown ism in itself, and it's all a bit more nuanced than that possibly,  but with the support for Assad / Russia etc, and chuck in Galloway's ludicrous Unionism / anti Scots indep, and , and direction of travel all seem pretty clear for me ( though will accept GG's not short of clarify / forceful intellect / and a bit of charisma when it comes to working class issues, + some parts of his anti imperialism etc).


----------



## Shechemite (Sep 2, 2020)

Is Gorgeous still reading Atzmon’s book to wifey?


----------



## Fallon (Sep 27, 2020)

Nearly 10 years after I first read it, I started BTF again yesterday. It's aged well..


----------



## Red Storm (Oct 13, 2020)

Fallon said:


> Nearly 10 years after I first read it, I started BTF again yesterday. It's aged well..



cant believe it’s been 10 years!


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Dec 23, 2020)

An early Christmas present - Richard Edmonds has died.

For younger readers Edmonds was a Holocaust denier, a poisonous anti-Semite and a one time leading figure in the National Front & BNP.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Jan 13, 2021)

The latest Working Class History podcast is an interesting look at the history of Anti Racist Action in Minneapolis:








						E49: Anti-Racist Action in Minneapolis
					

As a far-right mob storms the Capitol in Washington DC, learn more about the history of opposition to white supremacy in the US. This podcast episode tells the story of Anti-Racist Action, a milita…




					workingclasshistory.com
				




Essentially an organisation that grew out of a 1980s multi-ethnic skinhead gang that fought boneheads.


----------



## hitmouse (Jan 13, 2021)

Something I've always vaguely wondered about is that, given that there was plenty of militant opposition to the far-right in the US from the 80s-2000s under the ARA banner, when and how did the most common term for that activity become antifa, and how narrowly did we miss out on an alternate universe where dickheads keep on proclaiming themselves to be anti-ARA, finding some weird way to pronounce ARA wrong, etc?


----------



## Serge Forward (Jan 13, 2021)

The far right would pronounce it "ay-ray" with emphasis on the ray.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 13, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Something I've always vaguely wondered about is that, given that there was plenty of militant opposition to the far-right in the US from the 80s-2000s under the ARA banner, when and how did the most common term for that activity become antifa, and how narrowly did we miss out on an alternate universe where dickheads keep on proclaiming themselves to be anti-ARA, finding some weird way to pronounce ARA wrong, etc?


i suspect los fastidios have to bear much of that blame


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 13, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> An early Christmas present - Richard Edmonds has died.
> 
> For younger readers Edmonds was a Holocaust denier, a poisonous anti-Semite and a one time leading figure in the National Front & BNP.


i missed this - a late xmas present


----------



## hitmouse (Jan 13, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> i missed this - a late xmas present


On a related note, while reading through Three-Way Fight recently, in among all the very detailed, sober nuanced analysis they have to offer, I did smile at seeing they had an obituary for Tom Metzger starting "Tom Metzger is dead. Fuck that muthafucker."


----------



## cantsin (Jan 13, 2021)

Fallon said:


> Nearly 10 years after I first read it, I started BTF again yesterday. It's aged well..



watched an over long docu on Sun Zu / Art of War recently .... some strong BTF vibes in places, reminded me to return to it


----------



## Fallon (Jan 23, 2021)

There have been a few AFA/RA badges released in recent times but this new one from Calton Books is the best I have seen. Based on an old Beating the Fascists sticker.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 24, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> An early Christmas present - Richard Edmonds has died.
> 
> For younger readers Edmonds was a Holocaust denier, a poisonous anti-Semite and a one time leading figure in the National Front & BNP.


I missed this too. He was about for years. Was really good at leading his lads to a slap.


----------



## krink (Feb 11, 2021)

Not sure where to put this but it's a pdf of an article that was in the German press about far right accelerationists. Probably these groups are going to be full of cranks and infiltrated by the state but I was surprised the atomwafen are thought to be responsible for 5 murders. Anyway...


----------



## TopCat (May 23, 2021)

Guardian reports of a new Netflix Copeland documentary.








						Far-right attack inevitable, warns informant who identified London nail bomber
					

Undercover agent who identified 1999 attacker says police are failing to keep pace with online spread of extreme ideology




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Guardian reports of a new Netflix Copeland documentary.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm sure there will be another fash terror attack. But on reading the article I felt the info about the new book had some influence on the warning's timing


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2021)

.


----------



## TopCat (May 23, 2021)

Larry O'Hara might find it interesting/infuriating.


----------



## Larry O'Hara (May 23, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Larry O'Hara might find it interesting/infuriating.


Not infuriated: I am well used to disinformation being the rule regarding Copeland and our attempts to get at the truth for over 20 years being ignored.  Certainly interesting, as the information in the public domain so far contradicts known facts about 'Arthur' and when/how/why Searchlight contacted police (see Notes From the Borderland 3 p.24-28 on this specifically).  For the record, Arthur did not actually inform them about Copeland in any usable/credible/relevant way.  Who will be infuriated is Gerry Gable: I very much doubt Aire (Lowles) ran 'Arthur'...


----------



## Larry O'Hara (May 23, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> I'm sure there will be another fash terror attack. But on reading the article I felt the info about the new book had some influence on the warning's timing


If you mean that history has been rewritten to manufacture a warning about Copeland that was never given, you are right.


----------



## TopCat (May 23, 2021)

Larry O'Hara said:


> Not infuriated: I am well used to disinformation being the rule regarding Copeland and the attempts to get at the truth for over 20 years being ignored.  Certainly interesting, as the information in the public domain so far contradicts known facts about 'Arthur' and when/how/why Searchlight contacted police (see Notes From the Borderland 3 p.24-28 on this specifically).  For the record, Arthur did not actually inform them about Copeland in any usable/credible/relevant way.  Who will be infuriated is Gerry Gable: I very much doubt Aire (Lowles) ran 'Arthur'...


I remember reading Gable’s “At war with society” followed by your work “At war with with the truth”.

I might dig both out prior to the Netflix programme. It was a long time ago but both are surely relevant now. Both for Gable’s lying narrative and for what you uncovered.

Murky it was and remains.

Did you learn much in the decades since it all went quiet, nothing to see here just a lone nutter all sorted?


----------



## Larry O'Hara (May 23, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I remember reading Gable’s “At war with society” followed by your work “At war with with the truth”.
> 
> I might dig both out prior to the Netflix programme. It was a long time ago but both are surely relevant now. Both for Gable’s lying narrative and for what you uncovered.
> 
> ...


Learnt a tremendous amount: it has got murkier & murkier! see the link below, which includes reference to a summary at one point.


----------



## Larry O'Hara (May 23, 2021)

For those interested, I have written a short holding article pending the programme here just follow the suggestions: Notes From The Borderland - NETFLIX Documentary Nail-bomber: Manhunt.  Declaration of interest by NFB


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2021)

Larry O'Hara said:


> Not infuriated: I am well used to disinformation being the rule regarding Copeland and the attempts to get at the truth for over 20 years being ignored.  Certainly interesting, as the information in the public domain so far contradicts known facts about 'Arthur' and when/how/why Searchlight contacted police (see Notes From the Borderland 3 p.24-28 on this specifically).  For the record, Arthur did not actually inform them about Copeland in any usable/credible/relevant way.  Who will be infuriated is Gerry Gable: I very much doubt Aire (Lowles) ran 'Arthur'...


Doubt lowles could run a bath let alone an agent


----------



## Larry O'Hara (May 23, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Doubt lowles could run a bath let alone an agent


Not quite true: I have read numerous agent reports he has written up.  Gullible yes, but not entirely useless.


----------



## Larry O'Hara (May 23, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I remember reading Gable’s “At war with society” followed by your work “At war with with the truth”.
> 
> I might dig both out prior to the Netflix programme. It was a long time ago but both are surely relevant now. Both for Gable’s lying narrative and for what you uncovered.
> 
> ...


Gable's narrative was indeed dishonest: and At War With The Truth so shocked them that they dropped Hepple & never dared refute it.  He himself (in case you didn't know!) changed his name to Tim Matthews and began infiltrating (of all places) the world of Ufology.  We wrote about that too, in 'At War With the Universe'.

The Copeland stuff, while yet again exhibiting the mendacity of both Gable and Nick Lowles (who co-wrote 'Mr Evil' about Copeland with Met Police mouth-piece Graeme McLagan) was of course a later separate investigation on our part that is still not over....


----------



## krink (May 26, 2021)

Arthur pretty much saved the world according to Lowles/HNH twitter people. I wouldn't trust that lot as far as I could throw them so will be re-reading Larry O'Hara articles ASAP.


----------



## Larry O'Hara (May 26, 2021)

krink said:


> Arthur pretty much saved the world according to Lowles/HNH twitter people. I wouldn't trust that lot as far as I could throw them so will be re-reading Larry O'Hara articles ASAP.
> View attachment 270333


Couldn’t agree more. I will watch it tonight and discuss with colleagues before posting a holding response: the book will be important too as the more they say the more they lie


----------



## Larry O'Hara (May 27, 2021)

Have just watched it in exhaustive detail. There are two important facts in it (one extremely useful) new to me and one I'd forgotten I now realise the significance of but maybe didn't before.  It was so utterly conforming to the script laid out by that dishonest hamster clone Nick Lowles a superficial reaction would be to see the production team as self-consciously colluding with his disinformational agenda.  But I will discuss it all with others and give the matter further thought: one observation that does spring to mind is that while Lowles has left Searchlight (completely obliterating Gerry Gable from the story!) Searchlight has not left Lowles.  The central premise of the show, that 'Agent Arthur' identified Copeland as the bomber disgracefully leaves out Paul Mifsud his work colleague who actually did.  Lowles of course knows this, which is why his little hamster-teeth quiver when he remarks that Arthur wanted no reward.  That Searchlight's disregard for truth and preference for disinformation persist in Lowles version of events can, as I have said elsewhere, be easily shown by perusing p.24-28 of Notes From the Borderland issue 3 and cross-referring with this show.  Has Vernon the journalistic integrity to do this and admit he was sold a pup? Does he even care?  We shall see.....


----------



## Fallon (May 27, 2021)

_The excellent 'Class Action' on social media. _

With the release of the Netflix film 'Nailbomber - Manhunt' and accompanying book by Nick Lowles [an updated rehash of his previous fairy tale 'Mr Evil', which is reviewed below] it is perhaps time to reveal the world of smoke, mirrors, fantasy and fascist honeypots inhabited by Searchlight, Hope Not Hate and their sponsors in the intelligence agencies.
These are not the exclusively 'anti-fascist' organisations they claim to be. They are 'anti-extremist' appendages of the state and they are just as likely to be spying on Muslims, Anti-Zionist Jews in the Labour Party, BLM, Irish Republicans, Kurdish Communists and genuine militant anti-fascists, as they are to be investigating Nazis like David Copeland, a man that their 'spy' inside the far-right completely missed and failed to flag up as a potential terrorist. Tomorrow I will review the film, but I'll kick it off today by reminding anti-fascists that we've been here before and some of the same players were involved.
-----------------------------------------------
Red Action Book Review - "Mr Evil"
Reproduced from RA bulletin Vol 4, Issue 10, March/April 2001
"MR EVIL - The Secret Life of Racist Pub Bomber and Killer David Copeland" by Graeme McLagen & Nick Lowles
It is only fair to say that Mr Evil is a riveting read for all the wrong reasons. Seasoned anti-fascists will either snort or gag.
Co-written by Searchlight editor Nick Lowles and fellow-traveler Graeme MacClagen the first half of the book appears to have been written with the ‘serial killer’ market in mind, while the final third is a polemic against foes and rivals in the security services. It is an uneasy mix. All is simplicity to begin with. "This is the chilling insight into a mind so warped it practically defies belief," the introduction promises, and before long you know you are in for a treat - of sorts. Following a conviction for common assault Copeland received a community service order. This the authors warn darkly, proved to be the first sign Copeland "was getting out of control". Later we are told, "like many on the far right he [another bombing suspect] had been bullied in school".
On page 28 "anti-Zionist" is defined for the simple reader as "a far-right euphemism for anti-Semitism" The temptations of reaching a mass market may have encouraged such... ahm... simplicities, but then dates too are also modified to accord with the "Copeland inherently evil" script. Thus it is inferred that it is was only after Copeland joined the BNP in 1997, that the BNP sought "to remodel the party as a respectable alternative" rather than three years earlier in 1994 when at a press conference it announced there would be "no more marches, meetings, punch-ups". Wouldn’t do to have Copeland the nutter joining anything other than the "most extreme racist political organisation in Britain" now would it?
In the same vein, it is announced that by 1999 "any hope of achieving a racist society through the ballot box... seemed more distant that ever" so bombing (in frustration with democracy you see) inevitably had greater purchase among right-wing extremists generally. Except that in the GLA elections less than a year after Copeland’s arrest, the BNP attracted the highest popular vote for any far-right party for a quarter of a century!
More seriously, despite a hardbacked 300 pages, the core questions in regard to the nature, and the basis for the mysterious police warning to the Admiral Duncan on the day before the bombing, is cynically skated over. A particular pity as these key questions the book side-steps are the ones the victims and their relatives, who are suing the pub’s owners, are asking.
Now, it is generally accepted that Copeland carried out reconnaissance in Soho on the same day he planted the bomb in Brick Lane. Five days later The Pink a gay newspaper ran a headline ‘Gays in fascist bomb alert’. According to the book "acting in response to the headline" police then warned some gay pubs in Soho including the Admiral Duncan, but as the book coyly frames it, "other well known gay venues in London were not visited". More to the point, other well know gay venues in Soho were not visited either.
Whatever way you look at it, police conduct seems extraordinary. Put simply, either they picked Soho and the venues they visited entirely at random, (as a PR exercise) or working on information received, chose to warn instead only those pubs Copeland had reconnoitred the previous Saturday. And if indeed they were acting on some specific information as would appear to be the case, they could have done so only if Copeland been under surveillance by ‘persons unknown’ prior to the bomb in Brick Lane as he went directly to Soho from there, If so, then someone ‘in the know’ very deliberately withheld such info from Scotland Yard.
Though none of this is addressed, a little finger-pointing is not entirely resisted. Describing the "relief and jubilation" of police at the Scotland Yard news conference after Copeland’s capture there is reference to "a significant omission in the widespread congratulation offered by Assistant Commissioner Veness". "Missing most notably from the list of those deserving congratulation was any mention of MI5 and Special Branch". As is stressed this was no oversight, "the omission was deliberate". A consciously public snub in fact, primarily because of "what one senior detective described to us later as an intelligence void". Here at the very least is tacit confirmation of the intense and bitter rivalry (though vehemently and repeatedly denied in the media) that exists between competing sections of the security services, not least of course that ‘lay adviser to the Met’: Searchlight itself.
In truth Searchlight were central to the in-fighting. Trenchant criticism of police handling of the investigation was a marked feature of Searchlight’s Gerry Gables contribution to the public debate in the run up to Copeland’s arrest. With every opportunity, came the same complaint: the investigation needed to be "intelligence led". A comment made in the knowledge, as the book confirms, that this is exactly where the operational "void" existed.
No bouquets for guessing what organisation Gable felt was best equipped to fill it. Though the likes of the ANL unashamedly endorse the strategy of ‘filling the vacuum Searchlight style’ a still widespread and commendable uneasiness at such collusion is evident by the fact Searchlight, just three months after a hardback Mr Evil was being offered to the public for £14.99, are giving it away for "free". Hopefully, if people are not buying the book they’re not buying the theory that underpins it either
Reproduced from RA bulletin Vol 4, Issue 10, March/April 2001


----------



## Larry O'Hara (May 27, 2021)

Fallon said:


> _The excellent 'Class Action' on social media. _
> 
> With the release of the Netflix film 'Nailbomber - Manhunt' and accompanying book by Nick Lowles [an updated rehash of his previous fairy tale 'Mr Evil', which is reviewed below] it is perhaps time to reveal the world of smoke, mirrors, fantasy and fascist honeypots inhabited by Searchlight, Hope Not Hate and their sponsors in the intelligence agencies.
> These are not the exclusively 'anti-fascist' organisations they claim to be. They are 'anti-extremist' appendages of the state and they are just as likely to be spying on Muslims, Anti-Zionist Jews in the Labour Party, BLM, Irish Republicans, Kurdish Communists and genuine militant anti-fascists, as they are to be investigating Nazis like David Copeland, a man that their 'spy' inside the far-right completely missed and failed to flag up as a potential terrorist. Tomorrow I will review the film, but I'll kick it off today by reminding anti-fascists that we've been here before and some of the same players were involved.
> ...


I was just about to post a link to this: excellent.  I should point out the hypothesis Copeland may have been trailed from Brick Lane when doing recon in Soho 24/4 was first highlighted by myself in Notes From the Borderland issue 3 p.17-18.  At that stage, we did not yet know that when on the way to detonating his last bomb in Soho 30/4, it has been credibly reported he was tailed also.  Nothing in the film about this of course. This one will run & run...


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## Larry O'Hara (May 28, 2021)

I have just updated the NFB web-site article to include remarks on the actual programme itself.  More on all this, later 😉


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## Red Storm (Jun 15, 2021)

Few bits of AFA footage on the Copeland documentary isn’t there? The image of him standing next to a bloodied Tyndall was taken by RA or AFA if I remember right


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## Fozzie Bear (Jun 15, 2021)

Red Storm said:


> Few bits of AFA footage on the Copeland documentary isn’t there? The image of him standing next to a bloodied Tyndall was taken by RA or AFA if I remember right



I think there was a claim for compensation when an infamous anti-fascist magazine claimed that footage as its own for a previous documentary also?


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## Fozzie Bear (Jun 15, 2021)

This may be of interest in terms of Filling The Vacuum etc 









						How the 2001 northern riots boosted the far right – and reshaped British politics | Daniel Trilling
					

The BNP’s explicitly racist politics only had limited appeal but more adept politicians have seized on the myths they exploited, says author Daniel Trilling




					www.theguardian.com
				




Draws on this new book which looks interesting:









						On Burnley Road: Class, Race and Politics in a Northern English Town - Lawrence Wishart
					

On Burnley Road is both a remarkable example of granular social history and an urgent contribution to current debates




					lwbooks.co.uk


----------



## hitmouse (Jun 15, 2021)

Fozzie Bear said:


> I think there was a claim for compensation when an infamous anti-fascist magazine claimed that footage as its own for a previous documentary also?


Cor, there must be a whole book to be written about "The untold story of litigation over photos and videos of Anti-Fascist Action".


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## DaveCinzano (Jun 15, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Cor, there must be a whole book to be written about "The untold story of litigation over photos and videos of Anti-Fascist Action".


A book with barely any pictures in it mind 🤣


----------



## Fallon (Jun 17, 2021)

Hate is Not Enough – the passing of a class warrior 

Alan Pullin  (6 February 1949 – 23 April 2021) 

An obituary for an old friend from Bristol who recently passed away : 

 “I met Alan first while working as a builder in Bristol. I quickly came to recognise a fierce intelligence and a sharp class consciousness. He was also a man of unlimited energy, regularly working all day as a builder and then night shifts as a psychiatric nurse, while also serving as a union rep in the NHS. We regularly had political discussions while we worked on roofs all over Bristol, as well as the odd argument about which town was bigger - Alan’ s beloved Bristol or my own hometown of Bradford.  

 Alans’s father was a painter and decorator (and a member of the communist party) while his mother was a bookkeeper. Alan joined the Young Communist League as many of his generation and background did, the first of many political ‘homes’ he would try out, a quest to find a suitable outlet for his core beliefs.  From there, by the time I met Alan, he had been involved with the Socialist Workers Party (SWP), and had been particularly active with the original Anti-Nazi League.  Alan had been among those who understood the need for physically confronting fascists – and he was never shy in identifying this as his favourite form of recreational violence. As the leading figure in a crew of particularly enthusiastic anti-fascists, he of course fell foul of the largely middle class SWP leadership and consequently the (SWP dominated) ANL leadership. Alan was not the only activist to find themselves in this position, and the conflict between the middle class and working-class elements saw the militants establishing a new formation - Red Action. Alan retold a story about an SWP meeting where the leadership was criticising Red Action for its violent tactics. At the meeting was the famous Red Clydesider Harry McShane, who spoke up for Red Action much to the embarrassment of the SWP leadership. The legendary figure pointed out that the working-class movement had always included ‘hooligans’.  

 Like many, Alan became disenchanted with the SWP and drifted away from it. He maintained his comradely association with Red Action members and many other militant comrades but didn’t recommit himself to any organisation. He hadn’t found the ‘right fit’ just yet, but that would soon be changing. 

 The early 1980’s saw an explosion of anger as working-class communities rioted across the country, with Bristol being one of the first to erupt, to be followed by London, Manchester, Liverpool and many more doing likewise. Our class knew the scale of the threat they were facing. The attempts to analyse and pigeonhole these riots and the tensions brewing within our class by the traditional left were pathetic and something different was needed. That something different was Class War, emerging during this decade to become an uncompromising voice for working class anger, and an unapologetic advocate of working-class militancy, be this in our own areas, on the picket line or even “devastating the avenues where the rich live”. Starting off essentially as a propaganda sheet, Class War spread to see groups developing across the country (and abroad) and eventually establishing a national organisation that became a household name. But more importantly was the promotion of Class War as a political goal – ensuring that a class-based agenda was to the forefront of all struggles and campaigns, replacing the pointless middle-class liberalism, reformism and lifestylist attitudes that were way too prevalent. This aggressive ‘working class and proud’ ethos was timely and necessary, and would serve well in the era of rampant Thatcherism, with key struggles from the Miners' Strike, through News International (Wapping) to the Poll Tax campaign. Class War and Alan would have a busy decade.  

 The Bristol anarchist group had started to discuss class politics and this would lead to the formation of the Bristol Class War ‘branch’. Having put the SWP behind him, Alan was intrigued by the direction of the anarchist group, it is fair to say, and started to attend meetings, and soon became a driving force. Through the 80’s and 90’s we were involved with others from Class War in many of the industrial and social disputes of the time. During the miners’ strike Alan’s father donated his caravan to be used by the pickets at the nearby Berkley power station.   

 Alan, like Harry McShane, understood the role of ‘hooligans’ and never accepted that the State should enjoy a monopoly on political violence – he was a born activist and could mobilise within working class estates many who would never normally be attracted to political activity, and I guess it's safer just to acknowledge that there are many stories that should still not be shared in print. 

 An important aspect of Alan’s involvement in Class War was his ability to provide a link from an older generation of class warriors, like Harry McShane, to the younger generation. You can see picture of Alan and Harry leading the 1976 Right to Work March on the cover of the recently reissued biography of Harry McShane “No Mean Fighter”. Alan had acquired a lot of experience in different political groups and knew the importance of being a thoughtful and caring friend and comrade.  He always had time to talk to people, and as his son Paul observed at Alan’s funeral, he needed to talk to people all the time about politics, whether they liked it or not! Many of us have memories of all night discussions with Alan. 

 Alan was a well-read class warrior and knew the importance of ideas in the struggle. One of his favourite phrases was ‘Is it the Singer or the Song?” to describe the tension between charismatic political operators and the ideas that they represent to the working class, drawing on his observation of struggles in Latin America. Alan understood and appreciated the importance of good PR operators in the struggle but also knew without a clear set of ideas and values things would go nowhere. As such he was a key figure in the production of the Class War Book ‘Unfinished Business’. Another phrase he was fond of using, that has always stuck in my mind, was ‘Hate Is Not Enough!’. There is plenty to hate about capitalism and its sick class system, but our class also needs a positive message of how things could be better and how that could happen – now more than ever. Like many activists Alan understood the importance of being part of a community and to have a long-term commitment to protect and support that community in order to be taken seriously and to have a base to operate from. Despite his attachment to his local community and his status as a proud Bristolian, he was not parochial. He was an Internationalist who keenly observed struggles across the globe, and was always happy to educate himself and share experiences with overseas activists, even naming one of his sons after an Irish comrade.  

 With the increasing strategy of the ruling class and their stooges to atomise our communities and society into helpless and fatalistic individuals, Alan’ legacy to us is the importance of ideas, having a story of hope to tell, caring for each other and being involved in community work - these things are now more important than ever. “

                                                         - John Casey


----------



## Geri (Jun 17, 2021)

I was involved in Bristol Anarchist Group in the 80s and Class War later on, and I remember Alan. He was a small man but very feisty. I couldn't make the funeral but I was talking to a friend who went earlier in the week, and he said they had two banners that they wanted to put on the hearse - Class War and an ANL one. The funeral home flat out refused the Class War one, which was the first choice, so they asked if they could put the ANL one on it instead. The funeral home said no, it might offend people so the friend said "What people might get offended? Nazis? Are any of you Nazis?" Cue some flustered denials and immediate backtracking!


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## TopCat (Jun 17, 2021)

Alan was a top bloke. Sorely missed.


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## hitmouse (Jun 17, 2021)

Looked it up, and I suppose this is the picture mentioned, not 100% sure what one's him though?


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## Pickman's model (Jun 17, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Looked it up, and I suppose this is the picture mentioned, not 100% sure what one's him though?
> 
> View attachment 273940


You can surely work it out, he's the aged gent in the middle of the lower picture


E2A h mcshane in middle, ap I think out to right with megaphone. Note to self: stop reading threads from the end back


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## hitmouse (Jun 19, 2021)

> Announcement:
> Yes we are aware that Tommy Robinson and a plethora of far right groups in support Intend to descend on our community in Batley on the 26/06/2021
> We won't share the video as we don't want to give platform or views to fascists.
> We would like to announce in the strongest of terms , that fascists will not walk freely and without oposition through our streets. We stand with our Muslim community in absolute solidarity.
> ...


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Jun 24, 2021)

Well it looks like my exploratory article on Agent Arthur touched a raw nerve. So much so that Codename Arthur (publication of which was unaccountably delayed 😉) has a despicable lie on p.61 that in June 1996 BNP member Paul Ballard “admitted to others that he had supplied information on the far right and possible Searchlight moles in return for O’Hara supplying him with  information on the anarchist group Class War”. A claim as outrageous as it is false.

Glad to know you are worried, Nick, and does explain why the book isn’t published by an established company because you know full well I would have contacted them immediately…

Let battle commence!


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## hitmouse (Jul 26, 2021)

Apparently there's two separate books about ARA due to be published by PM Press in the near future, one based on the It Did Happen Here podcast about Portland and one about ARA more generally. Only source I can find for this is instagram posts at the moment, though:


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## Pickman's model (Jul 26, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Apparently there's two separate books about ARA due to be published by PM Press in the near future, one based on the It Did Happen Here podcast about Portland and one about ARA more generally. Only source I can find for this is instagram posts at the moment, though:



I can't help thinking calling it it did happen here is quite possibly designing obsolescence into the title


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## Kate Sharpley (Aug 19, 2021)

"Anti-Fascist Action and the Transversal Territorialities of Militant Anti-Fascism in 1990s Britain"

Abstract

This paper explores the significance of unorthodox territorial activisms through the study of Anti-Fascist Action (AFA), a militant anti-fascist organisation in the United Kingdom and Ireland that operated at its height between 1989 and 1996. In the literature on activist territorialities, little has been written on practices that confront other non-state territorialities. Likewise, despite a small but growing geographical literature on far right populism, anti-fascism is under-researched. Through archival materials and interviews with former activists, I argue that geographers can understand AFA’s militant anti-fascism as transversal, following Félix Guattari’s theorisation of the term. AFA operated beyond state-centric modes of territoriality, creating malleable pathways between different operational logics, cross-cutting state and non-state forms. Thinking transversally about territory helps to disembed epistemic and ontological framings from dominant statist logics and assumptions, opening up new ways of understanding how movements operate territorially. The paper concludes with reflections for contemporary antifascisms.



			https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/anti.12768


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## Smokeandsteam (Aug 19, 2021)

Kate Sharpley said:


> "Anti-Fascist Action and the Transversal Territorialities of Militant Anti-Fascism in 1990s Britain"
> 
> Abstract
> 
> ...



Thanks. Seems to be behind the Wiley paywall though?


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## Fozzie Bear (Aug 19, 2021)

AFA and Guattari - together at last!


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## Smokeandsteam (Aug 23, 2021)

The excerpt below is from Paul Mason’s blog. I don’t know what ‘worked as an activist’ with AFA means. I also note that the battle of Waterloo has morphed into an anitfa mobilisation along with others…. In fact Mason describes himself as ‘antifa’.

Most surprising of all I learn that the ANL (and to a lesser extent YRE) were involved in work on the estates and at the football and not just lollipop waving. Revisionist news to me…









						My antifascist journey…
					

The first time I became aware of fascism’s existence was when my Mum tried to stop me watching a documentary about the liberation of Bergen Belsen. I was five years old. This was around 1965 – so about as far from the event in historical time as we are today from 9/11. One of my […]



					www.paulmason.org
				




This was a period where I worked as an activist in the ANL, Youth Against Racism in Europe (YRE), Searchlight and occasionally with Anti-Fascist Action (AFA). There was a lot of focus on, and controversy over, the policy of no-platforming fascists.

But the untold story of this period is how these organisations tried to do face-to-face propaganda work, door to door, in the white working class areas the fascists were targeting. We tried to make antifascism a “thing” not just among the Bengali youth, but in the white communities of the East End, and on the football terraces.

One of the strongest memories I have of this time was in 1992, after the murder of black teenager Rolan Adams: we held a march through Thamesmead calling for the BNP HQ to be shut down. A lot of white people stood in their gardens shouting racist abuse at us as we marched past.

As we now know, the police were more obsessed with surveillance and infiltration of the anti-racist movement than of the white supremacist gangs operating there (and, it has been revealed, the far right, organised crime and police corruption were a closely overlapping Venn diagram). It was in that atmosphere that Stephen Lawrence was murdered.

This was a period of spectacular antifa mobilisations, ranging from the “Battle of Waterloo” (station), the takedown of Combat 18 in Hyde Park, a mass picket of Jean Marie Le Pen outside the Charing Cross Hotel, to the mobilisation of maybe 50,000 people (from as far away as Glasgow) in Welling, in another attempt shut down the BNP HQ following Stephen’s murder. There is some classic “impartial” news coverage of it all here.




​
Welling, 1993
*But we failed to stop the BNP. *They switched from street mobilisations to electoral politics and by 2004 were able to score 800,000 votes in the European parliamentary elections.

By this time, as a journalist in the business media and then the BBC, my active antifa days were effectively over. I covered the rise of the BNP, Golden Dawn, UKIP and the US far right. During this time numerous ex-fascists and right-wing populists, in several countries, converged on the same strategy – electoral respectability for racism and xenophobia, framed around Islamophobia after 9/11.

Though right-wing populism was distasteful, I heard numerous pollsters, political scientists and senior journalists voice the same thought: at least it’s channelling the energies of the violent racists into an electoral dead end. The BNP vote, for example, collapsed, as it was folded into the much larger UKIP vote in the 2013 European elections, but UKIP could never win power.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 23, 2021)

.


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## Dom Traynor (Aug 23, 2021)

I don't want to defend mad Paul Mason but is he maybe using Antifa as a kind of catch all term for the millieu? Rather than a specific organisation. I mean he wouldn't be the first and it makes slightly more sense than any of the orgs of that name.


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## belboid (Aug 23, 2021)

He was in workers power back then, who were in afa, so he would have got involved with them then.  

He’s clearly using antifa as a catch all phrase.  Which it is.


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## The39thStep (Aug 23, 2021)

Think he was in Manchester AFA very briefly , mate of mine said he was more interested in contacts for his journalism than anything else . As soon  as ANL Mark 2 launched Workers Power found a new host so it was a short lived affair .


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## Smokeandsteam (Aug 23, 2021)

Thanks Steps. Did not know he was in AFA (even if was brief and part of the WP lot).


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## Smokeandsteam (Aug 23, 2021)

belboid said:


> He was in workers power back then, who were in afa, so he would have got involved with them then.



Yup. Cheers belboid. I’d forgotten WP brief affiliation.


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## The39thStep (Aug 23, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Thanks Steps. Did not know he was in AFA (even if was brief and part of the WP lot).


There were two brothers in Workers Power in the Housing section in Manchester City Council . All sort of general strike now / build workers defence squads types with no backing, they joined AFA  and spent a lot of time posing around with one of their members who I had a lot of time for. I asked him after a month or so what they were like to work with and he said 'very needy , they haven't got a clue'. Think he took them on a routing through some fascist's bin operation once and that was about it, there wasn't any mourning about what could have been when they jumped ship for ANL Mark 2. 

Of course, there are still the fond memories of them deciding to try and sell their paper at Waterloo Station before it kicked off.


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## Smokeandsteam (Aug 23, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Of course, there are still the fond memories of them deciding to try and sell their paper at Waterloo Station before it kicked off.


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Aug 28, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Thanks. Seems to be behind the Wiley paywall though?


yes a mere $42 for just a PDF: pity, as looked interesting


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## Larry O'Hara (Aug 28, 2021)

Dom Traynor said:


> I don't want to defend mad Paul Mason but is he maybe using Antifa as a kind of catch all term for the millieu? Rather than a specific organisation. I mean he wouldn't be the first and it makes slightly more sense than any of the orgs of that name.


so what's the excuse for him lying about the ANL working on estates?


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## Larry O'Hara (Aug 28, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> There were two brothers in Workers Power in the Housing section in Manchester City Council . All sort of general strike now / build workers defence squads types with no backing, they joined AFA  and spent a lot of time posing around with one of their members who I had a lot of time for. I asked him after a month or so what they were like to work with and he said 'very needy , they haven't got a clue'. Think he took them on a routing through some fascist's bin operation once and that was about it, there wasn't any mourning about what could have been when they jumped ship for ANL Mark 2.
> 
> Of course, there are still the fond memories of them deciding to try and sell their paper at Waterloo Station before it kicked off.


If these bozos couldn't link up with AFA in Manchester, which was very handy unit, little hope for them...


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## Dom Traynor (Aug 28, 2021)

Larry O'Hara said:


> so what's the excuse for him lying about the ANL working on estates?


I don't know or care. I specifically said I don't want to defend him I was just mentioning one point.


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## hitmouse (Aug 31, 2021)

Stuff happening in Croydon this weekend, apparently:


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## Fedayn (Sep 1, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> There were two brothers in Workers Power in the Housing section in Manchester City Council . All sort of general strike now / build workers defence squads types with no backing, they joined AFA  and spent a lot of time posing around with one of their members who I had a lot of time for. I asked him after a month or so what they were like to work with and he said 'very needy , they haven't got a clue'. Think he took them on a routing through some fascist's bin operation once and that was about it, there wasn't any mourning about what could have been when they jumped ship for ANL Mark 2.
> 
> Of course, there are still the fond memories of them deciding to try and sell their paper at Waterloo Station before it kicked off.



Rather reminiscent of the RCP member trying to sell The Next Step in Trafalgar Square as it was kicking off on the Poll Tax demo back in 1990....


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## Fedayn (Sep 1, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> The excerpt below is from Paul Mason’s blog. I don’t know what ‘worked as an activist’ with AFA means. I also note that the battle of Waterloo has morphed into an anitfa mobilisation along with others…. In fact Mason describes himself as ‘antifa’.
> 
> Most surprising of all I learn that the ANL (and to a lesser extent YRE) were involved in work on the estates and at the football and not just lollipop waving. Revisionist news to me…
> 
> ...



Whilst it was not perfect YRE was certainly involved  in working in and on estates and as a former YRE Away Team chap, I never waved a lollipop in my life. Even going so far as to be condemned as Dads Army by 3 national ANL leaders. at a stewards meeting the night before the big Welling Demo in October 1993.

As  an aside, Mason attended Militant Summer Camp in the 90s, a certified revolutionary butterfly at the time....


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## Smokeandsteam (Sep 1, 2021)

Yes, fully aware of the YRE away team track record. My comment was more aimed at Mason’s claim to be ‘working as an activist’ in ANL, YRE, AFA and Searchlight on estates.


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## Pickman's model (Sep 1, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Yes, fully aware of the YRE away team track record. My comment was more aimed at Mason’s claim to be ‘working as an activist’ in ANL, YRE, AFA and Searchlight on estates.


The only sort of person who'd been involved in all those groups would be someone very dodgy


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## Fedayn (Sep 1, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Yes, fully aware of the YRE away team track record. My comment was more aimed at Mason’s claim to be ‘working as an activist’ in ANL, YRE, AFA and Searchlight on estates.



I never came across him during that period, 1991 - 1994 other than at Militant Summer Camp. But again, he was not a weel kent face then so I may well have been in his company on this or that wee jaunt,. That said I lived in Coventry at the time and was only in London on certain occasions. Given Mason was from Leigh in Gtr Manchester it is, to be fair, entirely possible he was there or thereabouts. I'm not sure where he lived at the time mind.  If dennisr is still about he may know more?


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## Fallon (Sep 5, 2021)

Not quite Cabel Street Beat I'd imagine.


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## Pickman's model (Sep 5, 2021)

Fallon said:


> Not quite Cabel Street Beat I'd imagine.


A surprising omission from the book


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## hitmouse (Sep 16, 2021)

This might be of interest to some - a report by Copsey for the Centre for Research and Evidence on Security Threats:




__





						Understanding 21st-Century Militant Anti-Fascism
					

This CREST report presents evidence from interviews with anti-fascist activists and digital platforms used by anti-fascist groups to illustrate the role of militant anti-fascism in the 21st century.




					crestresearch.ac.uk


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## hitmouse (Sep 17, 2021)

This does sound proper interesting, coming up soon - Jock Palfreeman in London:


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## Sean (Oct 8, 2021)

I haven't been on here for years, but hi to anyone I know. Was listening to the 10 Rules for What podcast about On Burnley Road and it raised a lot of interesting questions about anti-fascist strategy then and now but there did seem to a massive gap in what was discussed, namely the IWCA and its projects. It feels like there's a lot of lessons in there for that kind of work so was wondering if I could put someone with more knowledge and experience of the IWCA in touch with them. I can't do it myself as while I was involved a fair bit, I'm neither working class nor like to associate much, so pretty much anyone else would be a lot better.

If anyone is up for it, send us a message and I'll put them in touch.


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## Fozzie Bear (Oct 8, 2021)

Sean said:


> I haven't been on here for years, but hi to anyone I know. Was listening to the 10 Rules for What podcast about On Burnley Road and it raised a lot of interesting questions about anti-fascist strategy then and now but there did seem to a massive gap in what was discussed, namely the IWCA and its projects. It feels like there's a lot of lessons in there for that kind of work so was wondering if I could put someone with more knowledge and experience of the IWCA in touch with them. I can't do it myself as while I was involved a fair bit, I'm neither working class nor like to associate much, so pretty much anyone else would be a lot better.
> 
> If anyone is up for it, send us a message and I'll put them in touch.


Similar thoughts to you Sean (and hello!).

I don't know them but have chatted a bit on twitter.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 8, 2021)

They had Mark Hayes on right back when they kicked off, so there's a start...


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## Fozzie Bear (Oct 8, 2021)

Turns out I can DM them on twitter, so I have done that.


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## Fozzie Bear (Oct 8, 2021)

It's a mixed bag, that podcast. Some of it does become a bit 'academic wordsoup', but lots of good things too.


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## Sean (Oct 8, 2021)

Fozzie Bear said:


> It's a mixed bag, that podcast. Some of it does become a bit 'academic wordsoup', but lots of good things too.


Yeah, very much my take on it too. I had no idea what one or two of the episodes were on about (even though they had titles and shit...) and just ended up being slightly frustrated and annoyed. Most of them have been good though and the ones where they've interviewed Dave Renton, Shane Burley and the 43 Group guy have been really interesting.


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## Fozzie Bear (Nov 10, 2021)

Wasn't sure where to put this. There's a film night on the 30th anniversary of the founding of ARA soon.




__





						Rio Cinema | WhatsOn
					






					riocinema.org.uk
				






> THE PROTECTOR (25mins)
> 
> Filmmaker Orson Nava's The Protector is a gripping observational film about how expert bodyguard Glenford Dinnal-Allen kept a Black leader alive. The Anti-Racist Alliance's Marc Wadsworth had been put on a "death list" by fascist paramilitaries Combat 18 in the early 1990s.


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## Sweet FA (Nov 10, 2021)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Wasn't sure where to put this. There's a film night on the 30th anniversary of the founding of ARA soon.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The Protector is also available online:












						DOCUMENTARY | orson-nava
					






					www.orsonnava.com


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## Fozzie Bear (Nov 10, 2021)

Thanks Sweet FA that's quite odd. A good advert for him I guess.


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## Sweet FA (Nov 10, 2021)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Thanks Sweet FA that's quite odd. A good advert for him I guess.


I guessed it was OK to post as it's on his own website, not nicked or anything - a friend forwarded it to me for the 'Girls with Balls' doc which is also well worth a watch.


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## krink (Nov 22, 2021)

Might be posted elsewhere but a very good friend of AFA and general nazi bashing over the years Tom 'Mensi' Mensforth is apparently very ill in hospital with covid. Really hope he recovers soon.


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## josef1878 2.0 (Nov 23, 2021)

krink said:


> Might be posted elsewhere but a very good friend of AFA and general nazi bashing over the years Tom 'Mensi' Mensforth is apparently very ill in hospital with covid. Really hope he recovers soon.


Still managing to post pictures with an oxygen mask on with "I fuckin hate nazis" good on him and hope he's back home soon


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## mx wcfc (Nov 23, 2021)

krink said:


> Might be posted elsewhere but a very good friend of AFA and general nazi bashing over the years Tom 'Mensi' Mensforth is apparently very ill in hospital with covid. Really hope he recovers soon.


Yeah, saw that on an old punk FB page.  Saw the latest incarnation of the Upstarts a couple of years before all this.  Hope I get to see them again.


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## Kate Sharpley (Nov 27, 2021)

We've just posted a set of tributes to Ken Williams (DAM), 1953-2020. See Kate Sharpley Library: Williams, Ken (1953-2020)


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## nastyned (Nov 27, 2021)

Kate Sharpley said:


> We've just posted a set of tributes to Ken Williams (DAM), 1953-2020. See Kate Sharpley Library: Williams, Ken (1953-2020)


Kin ell, some old sectarianism in there.


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## Serge Forward (Nov 28, 2021)

nastyned said:


> Kin ell, some old sectarianism in there.


You must mean this:


> _Oh, we hate George Woodcock and we hate Ian Bone.
> We hate Nick Heath and Vee-ro.
> We hate Mick Larkin and Arthur Moyse.
> Cos we’re Albert Meltzer’s – Boot boys_


I remember hearing some DAM members singing that on a demo and thought, pathetic, what a bunch of sad dickheads


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## hitmouse (Nov 28, 2021)

Serge Forward said:


> You must mean this:
> 
> I remember hearing some DAM members singing that on a demo and thought, pathetic, what a bunch of sad dickheads


First four names I recognise, Arthur Moyse I was able to google, still got no idea who Mick Larkin is/was?

Also just spoke to my mum since I could believe she might've run into him (Williams, not Larkin) in the 80s, she didn't recognise the name but did reminisce about the Alwyne Castle and London Apprentice a bit, also about how good-looking Islington Council's direct works department used to be, although sounds like he didn't work for the council?


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## Fozzie Bear (Nov 28, 2021)

That song is admirably niche for a group of people who were trying not to be a ghettoised subculture. 

If you Google Mick Larkin anarchist you get some stuff about him being kicked out of DAM possibly for suggesting people might vote Labour or for having the wrong take on one of those enormous international beefs that syndicalists seem to have all the time. :?


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## Pickman's model (Nov 28, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> First four names I recognise, Arthur Moyse I was able to google, still got no idea who Mick Larkin is/was?
> 
> Also just spoke to my mum since I could believe she might've run into him (Williams, not Larkin) in the 80s, she didn't recognise the name but did reminisce about the Alwyne Castle and London Apprentice a bit, also about how good-looking Islington Council's direct works department used to be, although sounds like he didn't work for the council?


I have only been in the alwyne castle once and that about 20 years ago. My only recollection of it is that it was very much on the dear side


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## Pickman's model (Nov 28, 2021)

Serge Forward said:


> You must mean this:
> 
> I remember hearing some DAM members singing that on a demo and thought, pathetic, what a bunch of sad dickheads


What chant was your riposte?


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## Serge Forward (Nov 28, 2021)

Mick Larkin (not his real mame) was a DAM member in the North East of England, maybe Hull or Tyneside. I think he left or was expelled for being sympathetic to the CNT Renovados (now CGT). He later resurrected himself as the anarchist comedian and comedy club compere, Eric The Heretic. I actually knew him socially, he was mates with my oldest son's mam.


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## Serge Forward (Nov 28, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> What chant was your riposte?


Probly summat like that "your mother is your sister" one, to the tune of the Addams Family 

In reality, we were probably too astonished to have a comeback. It's not as if they were singing it to anyone but themselves.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 28, 2021)

Serge Forward said:


> Probly summat like that "your mother is your sister" one, to the tune of the Addams Family.


Classy


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## Pickman's model (Nov 28, 2021)

Serge Forward said:


> You must mean this:
> 
> I remember hearing some DAM members singing that on a demo and thought, pathetic, what a bunch of sad dickheads


The only two dam members I've known weren't as far as I could tell sectarian - certainly sham singh, who was on the all britain anti-poll tax federation high table wasn't. Or at least he was but only ime v militant, which is understandable


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## splonkydoo (Nov 28, 2021)

Is there anything good to read on the history of the DAM? Have only ever really read about them in relation to other groups.


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## Serge Forward (Nov 28, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> The only two dam members I've known weren't as far as I could tell sectarian - certainly sham singh, who was on the all britain anti-poll tax federation high table wasn't. Or at least he was but only ime v militant, which is understandable


Yeah, Sham was sound, I also got along with Andy the printer, Andy the librarian and Adrian from the couriers union, also specky Mike. I also knew several people in Manchester DAM who were all right.


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## The39thStep (Nov 28, 2021)

Serge Forward said:


> Yeah, Sham was sound, I also got along with Andy the printer, Andy the librarian and Adrian from the couriers union, also specky Mike. I also knew several people in Manchester DAM who were all right.


Simon in Manchester DAM ( the one who whose girlfriend was in Workers Power) was sound


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## Serge Forward (Nov 28, 2021)

Unfortunately, I can't remember the names of most MCR DAM people. It was early 80s.


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## JimW (Nov 28, 2021)

Serge Forward said:


> Adrian from the couriers union


I think it was him who very kindly mentored me on my few youthful anti-fascist turnouts, top bloke.


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## Serge Forward (Nov 28, 2021)

Aye, he was good lad.


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## Kate Sharpley (Nov 28, 2021)

splonkydoo said:


> Is there anything good to read on the history of the DAM? Have only ever really read about them in relation to other groups.


There are a few pieces on our site:
Kate Sharpley Library: Direct Action Movement DAM
You could check out A history of Anarcho-syndicalism (though that's much broader and DAM only get a couple of mentions). No book-length tomes, yet. The Sparrow's nest (archive in Nottingham) have stuff scanned: https://thesparrowsnest.org.uk/search.php?query=direct+action+movement&logic=and&digital=0&digital=0 - you could see history as it happens if you read through _Direct Action_...


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## Serge Forward (Nov 28, 2021)

Kate Sharpley said:


> There are a few pieces on our site:
> Kate Sharpley Library: Direct Action Movement DAM
> You could check out A history of Anarcho-syndicalism (though that's much broader and DAM only get a couple of mentions). No book-length tomes, yet. The Sparrow's nest (archive in Nottingham) have stuff scanned: https://thesparrowsnest.org.uk/search.php?query=direct+action+movement&logic=and&digital=0&digital=0 - you could see history as it happens if you read through _Direct Action_...


Including the one published by the Hull renegades, which included articles sympathetic to CNT-R?


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## hitmouse (Nov 28, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> I have only been in the alwyne castle once and that about 20 years ago. My only recollection of it is that it was very much on the dear side


My mum's first opinion of it was that any NFers drinking in there would probably be on the well-heeled and less scary side, but then she remembered it was also next to a council estate where apparently one of the Sex Pistols lived for a bit, which also hosted some considerably rougher NFers? I thought she'd remember it because my mum seems to have drunk in a surprising number of the same pubs as Webster.


Serge Forward said:


> Mick Larkin (not his real mame) was a DAM member in the North East of England, maybe Hull or Tyneside. I think he left or was expelled for being sympathetic to the CNT Renovados (now CGT). He later resurrected himself as the anarchist comedian and comedy club compere, Eric The Heretic. I actually knew him socially, he was mates with my oldest son's mam.


Ah, I wasn't nerdy enough to recognise the name but do know what that description's about - they produced the heretical issue 32 of Direct Action that had an article in saying that the CNT-Reno/CGT were alright, followed up by the official issue 32 that had to apologise for the previous one.


Serge Forward said:


> Probly summat like that "your mother is your sister" one, to the tune of the Addams Family


"The EL-DAM family?"


splonkydoo said:


> Is there anything good to read on the history of the DAM? Have only ever really read about them in relation to other groups.


Good question, as someone who's read a few history things from Solfed they seem to have published more about the history of A-S in other countries or at the very start of the c20th than here. There's some old documents up on libcom:





						Winning the class war - An anarcho-syndicalist strategy
					

The Direct Action Movement's 1991 pamphlet on strategy, setting out a vision of networks of militant workers seeking to create explicitly revolutionary workplace and community based groups capable of initiating collective direct action - revolutionary unions. The DAM became Solidarity Federation...




					libcom.org
				








						"No Poll Tax Here": DAM pamphlet against Poll Tax
					

This is a short pamphlet put out by the DAM in around 1988, as interest was growing in England and Wales against the Poll Tax, which was already well advanced in Scotland.




					libcom.org


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## hitmouse (Nov 28, 2021)

Serge Forward said:


> Including the one published by the Hull renegades, which included articles sympathetic to CNT-R?


Snap - yes, that's the issue 32, or at least one of the issue 32s.


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## DaveCinzano (Nov 28, 2021)

Serge Forward said:


> Unfortunately, I can't remember the names of most MCR DAM people. It was early 80s.


Have a wade through the SDS reports at the  Undercover Policing Inquiry: Official Website  - it functions better as a FriendsReunited for political activists than it does as a public inquiry 👍


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## The39thStep (Nov 28, 2021)

Serge Forward said:


> Unfortunately, I can't remember the names of most MCR DAM people. It was early 80s.


Quite a big lad but very shortsighted. He put his glasses in his pocket when we spotted some fash scurrying around a Manchester Martyrs march and when he waded into action punched one of our own.


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## Serge Forward (Nov 28, 2021)

That's embarrassing


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## Serge Forward (Nov 29, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Snap - yes, that's the issue 32, or at least one of the issue 32s.


Issue 32A and issue 32B!


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## Pickman's model (Nov 29, 2021)

Serge Forward said:


> Issue 32A and issue 32B!


from p5 of32a

i hope to fuck he didn't fire that rocket while his mates were behind him


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## Fozzie Bear (Dec 6, 2021)

The Log Books is a podcast that uses the logbooks of London's Gay Switchboard to do LGBT history. It's good!

Latest episode looks at the bombing of the Admiral Duncan pub in Soho - and threats against Switchboard by Combat 18:









						Home | The Log Books
					






					www.thelogbooks.org
				




(There is a brief mention of AFA as being one of the organsations that they should keep posted about C18 threats).


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## Fallon (Dec 9, 2021)

*An overview of Anti-Fascist Action and the shifts in focus that led to its demise, by an ex-Liverpool AFA member. Written for Black Flag magazine in 2005. *
*





						Anti-Fascist Action: an Anarchist perspective
					






					libcom.org
				



*​


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## Kate Sharpley (Dec 9, 2021)

Or the pamphlet/ full version: http://www.thesparrowsnest.org.uk/collections/public_archive/PAR0090.pdf


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## Fallon (Dec 9, 2021)

Kate Sharpley said:


> Or the pamphlet/ full version: http://www.thesparrowsnest.org.uk/collections/public_archive/PAR0090.pdf


Thanks. I am not sure how I never read this before. I think I got it confused with the 'Bash the Fash' pamphlet.


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## TopCat (Dec 10, 2021)

Never seen that pamphlet before.


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## krink (Dec 10, 2021)

Just been told Mensi has died today. Really shit news. Gutted for his family especially his kids. RIP marra.


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## Fallon (Dec 10, 2021)

RIP. Horrible news.


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## TopCat (Dec 10, 2021)

Top Bloke and persistent with it. Respect.


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## Fozzie Bear (Dec 10, 2021)




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## Fozzie Bear (Dec 10, 2021)

I was never an Upstarts fan, but always held Mensi in high esteem. 

Mainly because he came to to speak at my students union in the late 80s. I was at the Polytechnic of Central London and Blood & Honour had opened up a shop called Cutdown nearby in Riding House Street. Mensi was part of an AFA contingent who came to speak to us about what needed to be done. He had a presence and directness that was in stark contrast to the posturing student politics that was the norm in the supposedly radical college. It wasn't a road to damascus thing or anything, but it did reinforce some ideas that were already in my head.

There is a straight line from that to me and some mates turning out to make up the numbers at some protests against the shop and the "main event" do at Hyde Park. And my approach to things subsequently. His intro to the AFA "open space" TV programme is iconic:


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## krink (Dec 10, 2021)

Fozzie Bear said:


> View attachment 300165


Crazy day in South Shields. Tom and his mate had just fronted the whole EDL mob who were hassling a woman photographer and his mate had just floored their leader with one punch. The brave EDL shit themselves 😂 Cops appeared from nowhere and lifted Tom and S. That's me behind him with green hoodie and cap. I wanted the Upstarts to use this photo for the album they recorded shortly after this so I could have a claim to fame - needless to say I remain without. Great memories though.


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## DaveCinzano (Dec 10, 2021)

Fozzie Bear said:


> His intro to the AFA "open space" TV programme is iconic:



Iconic indeed 

Hope his people take some comfort from how he touched so many.


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## The39thStep (Dec 10, 2021)

Some people learn about class politics and fair play to them  but with Mensi he was born with it in his gut. Total respect to him.


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## Magnus McGinty (Dec 11, 2021)

krink said:


> Just been told Mensi has died today. Really shit news. Gutted for his family especially his kids. RIP marra.



Aw fuck. Terrible news. Didn’t know him but knew his music. Rest in Power.


----------



## Fallon (Dec 16, 2021)

Thomas ‘Mensi’ Mensforth obituary
					

Charismatic, outspoken frontman of the punk band Angelic Upstarts, pioneers of raw and raucous Oi music




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## hitmouse (Jan 24, 2022)

Bumping this thread with news of the death of a certain other musician that I imagine some posters on here may have encountered:








						Infamous neo-Nazi skinhead band member dies of 'Covid complications' in Co Antrim hospital
					

One of Ulster's most infamous far-right activists has been laid to rest after passing away on New Year's Day with what was reported as "Covid complications."




					www.sundayworld.com


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## Pickman's model (Jan 24, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> Bumping this thread with news of the death of a certain other musician that I imagine some posters on here may have encountered:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


how humiliating for him that in his obit they spell skrewdriver wrong


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 24, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> Bumping this thread with news of the death of a certain other musician that I imagine some posters on here may have encountered:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


anyway, turned out nice again


----------



## hitmouse (Jan 24, 2022)

Don't have any actual proof of this, but alleged he was an antivaxer:


First Right Said Fred, now Skrewdriver.


----------



## hitmouse (Jan 24, 2022)




----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 24, 2022)

hitmouse said:


>



there's nothing like a dead fascist in the morning to put a spring in your step


----------



## hitmouse (Jan 24, 2022)

Also, a bit of a niche one this, but for anyone with an interest in pubs that Martin Webster used to drink in (possibly Nicky Crane as well?), there's a new-ish book about gay bars that has a chapter on the London Apprentice:








						Jeremy Atherton Lin on making writing tangible
					

Jeremy Atherton Lin (MA Critical Writing in Art & Design, 2015) is a writer based in London. His debut book Gay Bar is published by Little, Brown (US) and Granta (UK) in February 2021. He was shortlisted for the Fitzcarraldo Editions Essay Prize and his work has been published in The White...




					www.rca.ac.uk
				






> *Is there a particular narrative from the book that sums up its essence for you, or embodies your reasons for writing it?*
> 
> The London Apprentice was a magnetic, raunchy place in Shoreditch in the ’80s and ’90s. Starting with the name, the London Apprentice tells a story about the neighbourhood's development from centre of furniture manufacturing to amusement economy. The place of gay men in that trajectory – in gentrification – is taken to be axiomatic: first the gays move in, then the coffee roasters, then the scions of oil barons. But it’s more complicated than that, prickly in nuanced ways, plus filled with love and music and all manner of juiciness.
> 
> The deeper I dug, the more intense the place’s history turned out to be – and violent. There was a spate of gay bashings just outside in the late ’80s. By the ’90s, there was at least one racist attack _inside_ – instigated by gay fascist skinheads. I was determined to interrogate some of these less visible countercultures, even and especially the unsavoury ones.


----------



## Fallon (Apr 24, 2022)

One from the archives.


----------



## TopCat (Apr 24, 2022)

Fallon said:


> One from the archives.


can you post the second half of the interview please


----------



## Fallon (Apr 25, 2022)

The above was just tweeted on a United supporters account. 

However, here is the issue where it is from. https://afaarchive.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/red-attitude-issue-12.pdf


----------



## Fallon (Apr 30, 2022)

Anti-Racist Skinheads Fighting Nazis: The Baldies | Full-Length Documentary​


----------



## The39thStep (May 14, 2022)

Apparently, Ray Hill has died


----------



## Fallon (May 28, 2022)




----------



## hitmouse (Sep 13, 2022)

Forgot to post about it earlier, but yesterday was the 30th anniversary of Waterloo:








						Today in London anti-fascist history, 1992: nazi skins meeting for Blood & Honour gig get a pasting from Anti-Fascist Action
					

Blood and Honour was a national socialist (Nazi) music organisation run by Ian Stuart Donaldson of the band Skrewdriver ((since, happily, deceased in a car crash). It developed out of the National …




					pasttenseblog.wordpress.com


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 20, 2022)

People asking for donations for the court costs of an Irish comrade, appears to be legit:








						Anti Fascist Direct Action : court fine, organized by John Connolly
					

Hey,  We are looking for yer support as a comrade was convicted with criminal d… John Connolly needs your support for Anti Fascist Direct Action : court fine



					www.gofundme.com


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 27, 2022)

This book sounds like it may be of interest to fans of BtF:


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 13, 2022)

News from Ireland Lough Erne: Five hospitalised after far-right Irish National Party conference crashed by ‘anti-fascists’


----------



## DaveCinzano (Nov 16, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> News from Ireland Lough Erne: Five hospitalised after far-right Irish National Party conference crashed by ‘anti-fascists’


More on these here:


----------



## krink (Dec 1, 2022)

Gutted to hear Steve Smith from punk band Red Alert has died after a short illness. Steve and Red Alert played many times in support of our local AFA group (Sunderland and Newcastle) in the 90s and beyond. RIP


----------



## hitmouse (Dec 20, 2022)

bignose1 said:


> Had a few chats with Phil at gigs esp Specials...good lad...was impresssed we were such big mates with Terry. Did his head in in the pub along with a few hundred other gig goers when we started a rumour that the gig( reunion tour 2009) was off(Nottingham) as Terry had food poisoning....kept it going for a while until someone came over very irate and confronted us...cue my pal ''yeah it was probably 'chinese' whispers mate ...however Terry is poorly.....had a takeaway last night....too much..too much..too much foo yung..............nearly got battered.... but 'cueing' up the gag for about half an hour was fun.
> Then at breakfast next day in the hotel...Terry came down and sat with us. I said to the waitress he doesnt fancy white bread today....''oh'' she said........cue me and pals....''this time hed like to have his toast brown.....der der der''
> ......cue 'blank expression' arghhh


Bumping this in light of the news, an all-time great post imo. RIP Terry.


----------

