# Dodgy looking Poles marching in London for "Doomed Soldiers Memorial Day"



## Divisive Cotton (Mar 13, 2013)

I don't think they are fascists just nutty nationalists of which Poland seems to have a lot of these days:

















More pics here: http://www.demotix.com/news/1839033/londons-poles-mark-doomed-soldiers-memorial-day-trafalgar-square


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## fogbat (Mar 13, 2013)

"If you love Poland so much why don't you go not live there?"


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## J Ed (Mar 13, 2013)

Just had a little glance at their FB, look at this https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/6098_321018414676912_1810947469_n.jpg

They certainly don't seem not fascist


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## sunny jim (Mar 13, 2013)

Dont you think there's a thin line between fascists and nutty nationalists?


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## weepiper (Mar 13, 2013)

They certainly _look_ pretty damn fash  by which I mean their choice of banners/symbols


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## bi0boy (Mar 13, 2013)

weepiper said:


> They certainly _look_ pretty damn fash  by which I mean their choice of banners/symbols


 
Also their pale and grim faces which allude to an unhealthy diet, and their uninspiring clothing choices.


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## likesfish (Mar 13, 2013)

well the doomed soldiers were Polish resistance fighters who were killed by the red army the susppoused *liberators *of poland 
 the same murderous tryants who were responsible for kaytn and only fucked off in 1993 they werent missed
http://articles.latimes.com/1993-09-19/news/mn-36939_1_red-army


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## sunny jim (Mar 13, 2013)

There's no anti fascist flags that I could see and seeing as they wrecked the country, you would have thought some of their ire would be directed at their occupiers from 1939 - 1945. Just anti communist flags.


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## likesfish (Mar 13, 2013)

well the reds invaded in 1939 with there allies the nazis as well and stayed until 1993 plus as suppoused allies left warsaw to burn another 50 years of domination massacre and detention.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martial_law_in_Poland
in no way or shape can the russians be seen as the good guys


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## likesfish (Mar 13, 2013)

likesfish said:


> well therussians invaded in 1939 alongside the nazis as well and stayed until 1993 plus as suppoused allies left warsaw to burn another 50 years of domination massacre and detention.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martial_law_in_Poland
> in no way or shape can the russians be seen as the good guys


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## sunny jim (Mar 13, 2013)

likesfish said:


> well the reds invaded in 1939 as well and stayed until 1993 plus as suppoused allies left warsaw to burn another 50 years of domination massacre and detention.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martial_law_in_Poland
> in no way or shape can the russians be seen as the good guys


 
Very true but the Nazis were much worse than the Russians were.


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## likesfish (Mar 13, 2013)

debatable frankly russians hung around much longer and did poland no favours either.

churchill summed stalin up perfectly if herr hitler invaded hell I'm sure I could find some nice words for the devil


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## DotCommunist (Mar 13, 2013)

not debatable at all


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## likesfish (Mar 13, 2013)

- the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact and its secret Protocol for the partition of Poland
- the invasion and occupation in September 1939 of Eastern Poland, an area containing eight out of sixteen Poland's prewar provinces and representing 52 percent of Polish soil with over 13 million people
- the consequent breaking of two bilateral treaties with Poland, namely - the 1921 Treaty of Riga and the 1932 Polish-Soviet Non-Aggression Pact, renewed in 1934 for an additional ten years; moreover, as a member [since 1934] of the League of Nations, the Soviet Union violated at least three multilateral pacts as well
- the gratuitous handing over of Wilno and the Wilno region to Lithuania in exchange for allowing the Soviets to have military bases in that country
- the rigged plebiscites on the basis of which the occupied Polish territories were incorporated into the Belorussian SSR and the Ukrainian SSR
- the wholesale looting of Polish raw materials, agricultural produce and both movable and immovable goods to Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union
- the wrecking of the Polish economy and the banking system
- the subversion of the Polish educational system, the arts, and the free press
- the trampling underfoot of human rights, including the freedoms of free speech, assembly and worship
- the confiscation of all Polish private and state landed property
- the exorbitant taxation without representation
- the four massive and other, less-known smaller deportations of entire Polish families to the _gulag_
- the massive arrests of so-called counterrevolutionaries and anti-Soviet elements
- the internment of Polish POWs in forced-labour camps in occupied Eastern Poland and the USSR
- the 1940 cold-blooded execution and burial in ground pits in Katyn, Mednoye and Kharkov of 21 857 Polish prisoners [this exact number of those murdered comes from a 1959 KGB memorandum from Aleksandr Shelepin to Nikita Khruschev and represents the total number of executions during the April-May 1940 action, including 7300 persons murdered in Belorussia and Ukraine]. The relatives of the victims in the Soviet-occupied part of Poland were subjected to one of the most severe repressions - deportation to the _gulag_. In postwar Poland, they were not allowed to speak of the manner in which their loved ones died, and had to mourn them in complete silence
- the ground pits, filled with Polish corpses, recently-discovered near Tavda and Tomsk, east of the Ural Mountains
- the forced 'death marches' to the interior of the Soviet Union following the June 1941 Nazi invasion
- the massive, cold-blooded executions of thousands of prisoners in occupied Eastern Poland in the first days of that invasion
- the establishment of a communist party in Nazi-occupied Poland in early 1942 with orders to destabilize the Polish Underground by denouncing its members to the Gestapo
- the Moscow 1943 order to combat the Polish Underground with "every possible means"
- the establishment in 1943 of the Moscow-based Union of Polish Patriots to take over the Polish government after the war
- the deliberate withholding of material and military assistance to the defenders of Warsaw during the 1944 uprising
- Stalin's 1944 order to liquidate the members of all Polish Underground forces, which resulted in the execution of thousands of Polish soldiers and the arrest and deportation of tens of thousands to the interior of the Soviet Union
- the luring of sixteen Polish leaders to Moscow in March, 1945 and their show trial​These, and similar Soviet actions cost the lives of hundreds of thousands of Polish citizens throughout the war and caused indescribable pain and sufferings to millions more. Such a terrible physical and psychological reign of terror has seldom been witnessed in the annals of human history. Its main objective, no doubt, was nothing less than the complete destruction of the sociocultural life of the twenty year old Second Republic of Poland. Yet as of today, sixty years after the end of the Second World War, not a single Russian official or researcher that can be named, has had the courage to own up to the fact that during the Second World War the Soviet Union was no better than Nazi Germany; that it was in large measure responsible for the outbreak of the Second World War; and that its sinister ideology continued to plague the world, and Poland in particular, for years after that war was over.
http://electronicmuseum.ca/Poland-WW2/soviet_crimes/soviet_crimes_eng.html


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## sihhi (Mar 13, 2013)

These people Patria Fidelis are based in Ealing the highest concentration of Poles in the country - some from right-wing areas in Poland, hence a base.

Occasionally they do stuff like "anti-abortion" firewall protests outside reproductive service centres offering services to Polish women. Britain is (after Germany, I believe)  the number two choice for Polish women with money, an abortion is _very_ difficult in Poland, much harder even than Ireland or Portugal. Anti-abortionism is even a vote-winning approach in government there.






Notice the map eats into parts of Belarus, a marker of their revanchism. The Powstanie Wielko-polskie is the heavily mythologised Greater Poland Uprising - in fact a bitter nationalist movement of (anti-Bolshevik) army figures against Germans in the West and Belarusians in the East to re-establish a stronger, larger (landlord-heavy, drive out the Germans to give new land for the Polish poor) Poland during the Versailles Treaty period.

Sadly, because the government no longer funds any kind of second language education, (money for multicultural grants is often simply to patch up social services for the disabled or elderly) these people also do a lot of Polish language supplementary schools for young Polish children and have their own youth theatre groups - themes of their productions the usual folkloric stories and history plays about Roman Dmowski, Marshal Pilsudski, the Home Army during WW2 and the CIA-backed insurgents of the 1940s and 50s against the PUWP, which is what the protest in OP is about.

As J Ed points out their kinds of ideas - such as demanding trial, imprisonment and for SLD or even PSP politicians supposedly tainted by association with Communism (often ordinary functionaries teachers or civil servants) - match perfectly with those of the actual far-right back in Poland. Of course they claim they are non-political in a sense yes no party - just Catholic, Polish and traditional.


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## DotCommunist (Mar 13, 2013)

still banging on about katyn eh


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## sunny jim (Mar 13, 2013)

I think the Warsaw ghetto trumps anything the communists did, not to mention the death camps built all over the place.


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## DotCommunist (Mar 13, 2013)

Joe's purges did take in a lot lot lotta people though and thats before you have considered the ukranian famine which the solution to seemed to be 'execute suspected hoarders'

But yes, on balance the nazis were worse


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## sihhi (Mar 13, 2013)

sunny jim said:


> I think the Warsaw ghetto trumps anything the communists did, not to mention the death camps built all over the place.


 
Mindset of Polish nationalist: <Those are Jewish Poles they don't matter>


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## ItWillNeverWork (Mar 13, 2013)

J Ed said:


> Just had a little glance at their FB, look at this https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/6098_321018414676912_1810947469_n.jpg
> 
> They certainly don't seem not fascist


 
It's incredible how the outward appearance of a person can obscure the black void that forms their festering soul.


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## sunny jim (Mar 13, 2013)

sihhi said:


> Mindset of Polish nationalist: <Those are Jewish Poles they don't matter>


 
 Polish nationalist midset =fascism


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## likesfish (Mar 13, 2013)

Well communism treatd them so well its sort of understandable


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## sunny jim (Mar 13, 2013)

Only if you're a complete fuckwit and know nothing of how the Nazis invaded Poland, treated Polish like sub humans, levelled Warsaw and killed millions of them.


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## seventh bullet (Mar 14, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> Joe's purges did take in a lot lot lotta people though...


 
The various 'operations' took 700,000 lives in two years.


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## Pickman's model (Mar 14, 2013)

Divisive Cotton said:


> I don't think they are fascists just nutty nationalists of which Poland seems to have a lot of these days:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


if they're called 'youth' organisations and there's a load of people in them who will never see another youth then they're fash.


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## krink (Mar 14, 2013)

here is info about this nationalist demo in Poland. it's crappy VICE but amongst the 'look at me' journalism there is some good info.

http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/polish-independence-day


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## ska invita (Mar 14, 2013)

sunny jim said:


> Only if you're a complete fuckwit and know nothing of how the Nazis invaded Poland, treated Polish like sub humans, levelled Warsaw and killed millions of them.


These bunch of dodgy fuckers aside I think you have to appreciate the deep level of anti-communist feeling amongst many people in Poland and other eastern European countries. The Nazi 'pain' lasted the period of the war, the communist 'pain' lasted for decades. It is more recent and pronounced and deep rooted in the day to day lives of all Poles. There is still to some extent a genuine fear of Russia.

I guess the long term legacy of having the Catholic church and suppressed nationalist sentiment as agents of opposition to communist oppression is these kind of outings.


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## sunny jim (Mar 14, 2013)

So they were fascists then - thought so.


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## Pickman's model (Mar 14, 2013)

sunny jim said:


> Only if you're a complete fuckwit and know nothing of how the Nazis invaded Poland, treated Polish like sub humans, levelled Warsaw and killed millions of them.


you must have missed the nazi-soviet pact which saw the russians invade the eastern half of poland and the germans invade the western half: two years before hitler invaded the soviet union. perhaps you're a complete fuckwit and know nothing of how the soviets invaded poland, deported fuck loads of poles, shot a load at katyn and then after war oversaw a 45 year stalinist state.

perhaps not.


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## Garek (Mar 14, 2013)

sunny jim said:


> So they were fascists then - thought so.


 

Looks that way, unless you are blinded by frothing anti-communism and a black and white view of history.


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## Divisive Cotton (Mar 14, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> you must have missed the nazi-soviet pact which saw the russians invade the eastern half of poland and the germans invade the western half: two years before hitler invaded the soviet union. perhaps you're a complete fuckwit and know nothing of how the soviets invaded poland, deported fuck loads of poles, shot a load at katyn and then after war oversaw a 45 year stalinist state.
> 
> perhaps not.


 
i have to agree, there's little difference between them if you want a whose worst question


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## Ax^ (Mar 14, 2013)

still remember with fondness the most bizarre incident i ever had with a polish house mate..

him screaming at me "my country is older than your country"

me screaming "my countrys a friggin island yours is a fu..ing pricipality"


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## Pickman's model (Mar 14, 2013)

Ax^ said:


> still remember with fondness the most bizarre incident i ever had with a polish house mate..
> 
> him screaming at me "my country is older than your country"
> 
> me screaming "my countrys a friggin island yours is a fu..ing prickipality"


a prickipality?


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## Ax^ (Mar 14, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> a prickipality?


 
not completely full of polish history thought it was a papal appointed kindgom around 990ad.. cannie remember what the rows was about just some polish guy screaming in my face "My Country older than yours"

*shrugs*


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## sunny jim (Mar 14, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> you must have missed the nazi-soviet pact which saw the russians invade the eastern half of poland and the germans invade the western half: two years before hitler invaded the soviet union. perhaps you're a complete fuckwit and know nothing of how the soviets invaded poland, deported fuck loads of poles, shot a load at katyn and then after war oversaw a 45 year stalinist state.
> 
> perhaps not.


 
No I can totally see why the Poles hate the Russians and vice versa for centuries and Stalin and Hitler's agreement of the carve up of Poland, but you would have thought Nazis wouldnt be so popular seeing as they referred to as the Polish people as 'sub human'.


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## Pickman's model (Mar 14, 2013)

sunny jim said:


> No I can totally see why the Poles hate the Russians and vice versa for centuries and Stalin and Hitler's agreement of the carve up of Poland, but you would have thought Nazis wouldnt be so popular seeing as they referred to as the Polish people as 'sub human'.


there's nowt so queer as folk, sj.


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## ska invita (Mar 14, 2013)

just to make the point: not all polish anti-communists are fascist though, not by a long stretch. The Law and Order party or whatever they were called got in on a ticket of rooting out the old communist bureaucrats - this had broad popular support - enough to win an election.


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## seventh bullet (Mar 14, 2013)

Not all Polish communists are Stalinists, either.


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## ska invita (Mar 14, 2013)

sunny jim said:


> but you would have thought Nazis wouldnt be so popular


theyre not really though are they. yes there is a far right in Poland and was throughout the communist era, but its a tiny minority, maybe equal to the far right in the UK in the 70s


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## sunny jim (Mar 14, 2013)

ska invita said:


> theyre not really though are they. yes there is a far right in Poland and was throughout the communist era, but its a tiny minority, maybe equal to the far right in the UK in the 70s


 
20,000 on the fash demo recently in Poland - no where near what the fash got in the UK in the 70's. Not even sure Mosely's fascists managed to get that many in the 1930's. Could be wrong about the latter though.


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## ska invita (Mar 14, 2013)

Thats good to know, thanks.


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## Delroy Booth (Apr 30, 2013)

sunny jim said:


> 20,000 on the fash demo recently in Poland - no where near what the fash got in the UK in the 70's. Not even sure Mosely's fascists managed to get that many in the 1930's. Could be wrong about the latter though.


 
yeah it's pretty bad over there at the moment saw this http://tvnz.co.nz/world-news/polish-far-right-flash-mobs-scare-liberal-thinkers-5423544 polish far-right flash mobs attacking left-wingers.


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## Casually Red (Apr 30, 2013)

likesfish said:


> well the doomed soldiers were Polish resistance fighters who were killed by the red army the susppoused *liberators *of poland
> the same murderous tryants who were responsible for kaytn and only fucked off in 1993 they werent missed
> http://articles.latimes.com/1993-09-19/news/mn-36939_1_red-army


 
its immaterial as to whether or not those honouring them are fascists . The BNP and NF regularly paraded to the London Cenotaph


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## butchersapron (Apr 30, 2013)

likesfish said:


> well the doomed soldiers were Polish resistance fighters who were killed by the red army the susppoused *liberators *of poland
> the same murderous tryants who were responsible for kaytn and only fucked off in 1993 they werent missed
> http://articles.latimes.com/1993-09-19/news/mn-36939_1_red-army


Who says they were resistance fighters?


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## SpookyFrank (Apr 30, 2013)

Ax^ said:


> not completely full of polish history thought it was a papal appointed kindgom around 990ad.. cannie remember what the rows was about just some polish guy screaming in my face "My Country older than yours"
> 
> *shrugs*


 
Most of the Polish people I know struggle with Polish history tbh. A mate of mine told me that at school his history lessons mostly consisted of memorising all the different times the borders of Poland moved around and the various nefarious forces responsible for all the annexations, partitions and invasions


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## likesfish (Apr 30, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Who says they were resistance fighters?


 The poles do


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## butchersapron (Apr 30, 2013)

likesfish said:


> The poles do


Where?


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## sim667 (May 2, 2013)

sunny jim said:


> I think the Warsaw ghetto trumps anything the communists did, not to mention the death camps built all over the place.


 
The russians had forced labour camps (which were essentially death camps) in hungary, did they not have the same in poland?

I know the principle is different between the nazi and russian ones, but a lot of people died in the labour camps in hungary under russian rule.


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## Casually Red (May 2, 2013)

ive a polish mate whos ex fash

next time were out for a pint ill ask him about this outfits boggle and report back to the politburo


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## Idris2002 (May 2, 2013)

sim667 said:


> The russians had forced labour camps (which were essentially death camps) in hungary, did they not have the same in poland?
> 
> I know the principle is different between the nazi and russian ones, but a lot of people died in the labour camps in hungary under russian rule.


 
Essentially death camps? I dunno, my Hungarian colleague (who was in the last cohort of people trained to be central planners, and became a born-again neo-liberal) says that they were bad, but not like what  you had in Siberia.


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## Sprocket. (May 2, 2013)

A few years back I worked with a Polish lad, he came over as a lovely polite fella. He speaks perfect English as a result of his parents desire that should he get the chance he should leave Poland for Britain or the States.
Talking to him one day about his home and history he told me his mother was born in a labour camp in the Soviet Union as his Grandfather was a prisoner due to owning his own business when the Russians arrived. He served twenty years and was re-educated.
This lad was vehemently anti Russian and anti Communist as a result of his families past and his upbringing. I said rather pointedly that I thought the Nazi's would have been hated far more.
Apparently not, he said that the Germans, bad as they were only picked on the Jews really and they (the Jews) had brought it in themselves! I was shocked and then he said, '' That is the best thing about Poland, no Jews''!
He then proceeded to show me pictures of the 'crew' he ran around with in Gdansk. All of them stood behind a banner with a huge swastika on and about sixty shaved nutters all doing the right arm salute.
It totally changed my opinion and view towards some of the Poles working at the place and no amount of talking or discussion could change their stand point.
It worries me greatly that they see Poland as the last bastion of 'white rule' and they truly believe that there will be a mass exodus of white Christians to Poland when ''the Muslims have taken over Western Europe''


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## butchersapron (May 2, 2013)

sim667 said:


> The russians had forced labour camps (which were essentially death camps) in hungary, did they not have the same in poland?
> 
> I know the principle is different between the nazi and russian ones, but a lot of people died in the labour camps in hungary under russian rule.


The pro-nazi Hungarian state certainly forced jews to work in their camps whilst they fought for the Nazis. Are you referring to camps _after the war_, the short-lived ones in the early 50s?


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## sim667 (May 2, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> The pro-nazi Hungarian state certainly forced jews to work in their camps whilst they fought for the Nazis. Are you referring to camps _after the war_, the short-lived ones in the early 50s?


 
Yeah those are the ones I mean. Mostly ran from the end of WW2 to 1958-ish didnt they?


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## sim667 (May 2, 2013)

Idris2002 said:


> Essentially death camps? I dunno, my Hungarian colleague (who was in the last cohort of people trained to be central planners, and became a born-again neo-liberal) says that they were bad, but not like what you had in Siberia.


 
Was he in one?

In budapest a lot of the stuff I saw about them said they were basically death camps, if you went, likelihood was you weren't coming back


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## co-op (May 2, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> you must have missed the nazi-soviet pact which saw the russians invade the eastern half of poland and the germans invade the western half: two years before hitler invaded the soviet union. perhaps you're a complete fuckwit and know nothing of how the soviets invaded poland, deported fuck loads of poles, shot a load at katyn and then after war oversaw a 45 year stalinist state.
> 
> perhaps not.


 
The Soviet "invasion of the eastern half of Poland" was nothing of the sort; not because they didn't invade but because to call the territory invaded "the eastern half of Poland" is just plain wrong. It was - at best - part Polish ethnically, much of it was 'really' Ukraine, Belarus, even parts of Lithuania. Most of it had been seized at gunpoint by the Polish military govt of the 1920s during illegal invasions carried out under the general heading of joining in the general western attempts to throttle the USSR at birth, but really a land-grab. The resulting territory usually ended up as great estates owned by Polish nobility with the locals reduced to an ethnically-based serfdom. Something of a model for the Nazi policy in the east a few years later in fact.

This explains the murderous Ukraine-Polish war that took place under Nazi occupation as Ukrainian nationalists resistance sought to ethnically cleanse Poles from the east and Polish resistance merrily reciprocated, for the most part leaving the Germans to get on with jew-slaughtering (which neither group seemed to greatly care about).

The current eastern borders of Poland basically mirror the Molotov-Ribbentrop line and no one apart from the lunatic fringes of the Polish far right seriously questions that they are about right in terms of where Poland 'really' is.


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## Lo Siento. (May 2, 2013)

J Ed said:


> Just had a little glance at their FB, look at this https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/6098_321018414676912_1810947469_n.jpg
> 
> They certainly don't seem not fascist


she's a fascist for sure. Her t-shirt is in Spanish and says "han pasado", which means they've passed, which is a fascist retort to "no pasaran" (and below it says "For God and the fatherland")


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## Idris2002 (May 2, 2013)

sim667 said:


> Was he in one?
> 
> In budapest a lot of the stuff I saw about them said they were basically death camps, if you went, likelihood was you weren't coming back


 
He was a bit too young for that. And from what he said, quite a few people did come back. Though mind you, some people made it back from Siberia (like General Jaruzelski).


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## butchersapron (May 2, 2013)

sim667 said:


> Yeah those are the ones I mean. Mostly ran from the end of WW2 to 1958-ish didnt they?


They only appear to have existed 1950-53 as part of Rakosi's plan to weed out opposition and impose rapid industrialisation. Hard to get reliable info, and cannot find any at all of deaths, which is why i'm sceptical  of the claim that they were effectively death-camps. Labour camps of a different kind, of the type they re-introduced a few years back (really) continued for some time after that though. 600 000 hungarians were taken out of Hungary and sent to the soviet union and 1/3 of them died. Maybe you're linking the two?


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## Pickman's model (May 2, 2013)

co-op said:


> The Soviet "invasion of the eastern half of Poland" was nothing of the sort; not because they didn't invade but because to call the territory invaded "the eastern half of Poland" is just plain wrong. It was - at best - part Polish ethnically, much of it was 'really' Ukraine, Belarus, even parts of Lithuania. Most of it had been seized at gunpoint by the Polish military govt of the 1920s during illegal invasions carried out under the general heading of joining in the general western attempts to throttle the USSR at birth, but really a land-grab. The resulting territory usually ended up as great estates owned by Polish nobility with the locals reduced to an ethnically-based serfdom. Something of a model for the Nazi policy in the east a few years later in fact.
> 
> This explains the murderous Ukraine-Polish war that took place under Nazi occupation as Ukrainian nationalists resistance sought to ethnically cleanse Poles from the east and Polish resistance merrily reciprocated, for the most part leaving the Germans to get on with jew-slaughtering (which neither group seemed to greatly care about).
> 
> The current eastern borders of Poland basically mirror the Molotov-Ribbentrop line and no one apart from the lunatic fringes of the Polish far right seriously questions that they are about right in terms of where Poland 'really' is.


ok, you must have missed the soviet invasion of the eastern half of poland as per 1939 borders - and of course this country had guaranteed poland's territorial integrity, it's what we went to war over. if you're going to talk about legal and illegal invasions we'll never hear the fucking end of it, but i suggest you have a glance at adam zamoyski's 'warsaw 1920'. i'm sure the denizens of the eastern half of poland - the byelorussians, ukrainians and lithuanians, not to mention the poles - were ecstatick to be welcomed into the workers' paradise that was the union of soviet socialist republicks under joseph stalin. as for influences on german policy in the east, i suspect the experience of the german freikorps in the east after the first world war, not to mention the german colonial experience in africa, were a mite stronger than what the poles got up to in the 20s. i think you're also on thin ice with your claim that only the germans were really bothered about topping the jews.


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## sim667 (May 2, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> They only appear to have existed 1950-53 as part of Rakosi's plan to weed out opposition and impose rapid industrialisation. Hard to get reliable info, and cannot find any at all of deaths, which is why i'm sceptical of the claim that they were effectively death-camps. Labour camps of a different kind, of the type they re-introduced a few years back (really) continued for some time after that though. 600 000 hungarians were taken out of Hungary and sent to the soviet union and 1/3 of them died. *Maybe you're linking the two?*


 
Yes I think I am. When I was at the terror house I think I just assumed they were in hungary when reading about them.

Around numbers from wikipedia suggest about 200,000 hungarians died in them, it would be interesting to know the total number from all the areas where people were taken

e2a: Ive got all of the literature that you pick up as you walk round the terror house in budapest if anyone wants copies, there's a lot and its very detailed for museum literature.


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## Idris2002 (May 2, 2013)

> The last twenty years have seen a considerable amount of soul-searching and policy change concerning collectivized agriculture but nowhere more than in Hungary. 12 They first followed the Soviet "horizontal" pattern and after the 1956 revolution reorganized and tried it out again. What resulted was a decline or stagnation of agriculture and chronic shortages of food supplies (to which, before 1956, harsh repressions meted out to a resentful rural population should be added). Neither mechanization nor the deportation of "Kulaks" and the arrest of the "saboteurs," nor bureaucratic orders and campaigns solved the permanent agricultural crisis. Then the Hungarian leadeKship demonstrated the courage of retreat, made a clean sweep, and began in a totally new manner. Village-scale units were now combined with both multi-village and single family ones. *Those deported from their villages were permitted to come back and often to direct cooperative production.* External controls declined, compulsory sales were abolished, and "vertical" chains of mutually profitable production arrangements were set up and facilitated (e.g., a small holder buying fodder at a price satisfactory to him from the large-scale collective enterprise of which he is a member, to produce within his family unit meat which is then sold on a "free market" or under a contract). The agricultural results were dramatic, moving the country rapidly to the top of the European league where increase in agricultural production and incomes are concerned, not only resolving the problems of supplies but establishing Hungary as an exporter of food. The case of Hungarian agriculture and many other experiments with Collectivization, positive and negative, in Europe as well as in Asia, Africa, and Latin America, acted as an important validation of Chayanov's suggestions for agricultural transformation, of his prognostication, and, up to a point, of his more general theoretical constructs and approaches. It was clearly not the issue of size or of collectivism or even of Collectivization per se but of the actual form of rural transformation and new organization of production as well as the way it combines with peasants-versus-bureaucrats relations, How of resources, and the substantive issues of farming (and its peculiarities as a branch of production). In the face of all these issues, Chayanov's and his friends' superb understanding of agriculture, combined with that of rural society, made them unique. This makes his major project—what he called Social Agronomy—pertinent still. It is not that, on the whole, those who succeeded or failed have studied him directly in Hungary or elsewhere. 13 Such lines are seldom clear. But they would (or will) benefit and could lessen some pains if they would (or will) do so. The fact that this part of Chayanov's intellectual heritage is seldom considered or admitted has to do not with its content but with the nature of current ideological constraints to which we shall return.


 
http://www.eng.yabloko.ru/Books/Shanin/chayanov.html

"Those deported from their villages were permitted to come back and often to direct cooperative production."

The quote is from top peasant studies man Teodor Shanin. Can we imagine anyone coming back from Auschwitz and being detailed to "direct cooperative production"?

It is to laugh.


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## sim667 (May 2, 2013)

Is that talking about 1956 post revolution (attempt) era?


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## Idris2002 (May 2, 2013)

sim667 said:


> Is that talking about 1956 post revolution (attempt) era?


 
Yes, you can tell by the bits where he basically says "I am talking about the post-56 era".


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## likesfish (May 2, 2013)

Eastern europe had a long history of jew hatred before adolf was born my great grandmother and parents fled russia before ww1 they  ended  up in glasgow where they all died apart from great grandmother  who was raised a catholic.
   Add the  nazis followed by soviet tyranny and all sorts of nasty stuff is going to ferment under the surface


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## sim667 (May 2, 2013)

Idris2002 said:


> Yes, you can tell by the bits where he basically says "I am talking about the post-56 era".


 
It doesnt actually say that in what you've quoted....


> The last twenty years have seen a considerable amount of soul-searching and policy change concerning collectivized agriculture but nowhere more than in Hungary. 12 They first followed the Soviet "horizontal" pattern and after the 1956 revolution reorganized and tried it out again.


 
Notice the full stop after the word "hungary". The second sentence then goes on to talk about the soviet pattern and then "after the 1956 revolution", suggesting that the 20 year period he talks about in the first sentence spans the pre and post revolution period.

[/Grammar Pendant]


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## Idris2002 (May 2, 2013)

sim667 said:


> It doesnt actually say that in what you've quoted....
> 
> 
> Notice the full stop after the word "hungary". The second sentence then goes on to talk about the soviet pattern and then "after the 1956 revolution", suggesting that the 20 year period he talks about in the first sentence spans the pre and post revolution period.
> ...


 
He's writing in the mid-80s. So his twenty year period only goes back to the mid-60s, well after the revolution.


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## sim667 (May 2, 2013)

Idris2002 said:


> He's writing in the mid-80s. So his twenty year period only goes back to the mid-60s, well after the revolution.


 
Ah ok, didnt know when it was written.....


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## ddraig (May 2, 2013)

been told there was a rash of polish fash stickers that appeared in an area of Cardiff
they have been covered afaik and people are keeping eyes out


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## Pingu (May 2, 2013)

ska invita said:


> These bunch of dodgy fuckers aside I think you have to appreciate the deep level of anti-communist feeling amongst many people in Poland and other eastern European countries.


 
 my experiences of PLN back this up. Russians are not liked. Poland also is not exactly what you could call a multicultural society either and Poles* has a fairly black &white (sorry) view on a lot of topics.

*as sweeping generalisation I know but ime people tend to be fairly strong in their beliefs one way or the other and there is little in the way of grey areas.


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## co-op (May 2, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> ok, you must have missed the soviet invasion of the eastern half of poland as per 1939 borders - and of course this country had guaranteed poland's territorial integrity, it's what we went to war over.


 
Did you bother read the post you're responding to? I agreed it was an invasion, just that calling it "eastern Poland" is daft; it was Poland's eastern lebesraum, taken by force just 20 years earlier.

The USSR was prepared to guarantee Poland's borders as part of continued attempts by the USSR to form an alliance against Hitler, an alliance which the western powers continually rebuffed and prevaricated about - by 1939 they were acting unilaterally.



Pickman's model said:


> if you're going to talk about legal and illegal invasions we'll never hear the fucking end of it, but i suggest you have a glance at adam zamoyski's 'warsaw 1920'. i'm sure the denizens of the eastern half of poland - the byelorussians, ukrainians and lithuanians, not to mention the poles - were ecstatick to be welcomed into the workers' paradise that was the union of soviet socialist republicks under joseph stalin. as for influences on german policy in the east, i suspect the experience of the german freikorps in the east after the first world war, not to mention the german colonial experience in africa, were a mite stronger than what the poles got up to in the 20s. i think you're also on thin ice with your claim that only the germans were really bothered about topping the jews.


 
If you're just going to grind some olde anarchist beef about the USSR you're never really going to be able to get a handle on anything to do with its history. Perhaps you want to read up on the Polish-Ukraine war of the 40s or check out photos of Polish officers cleansing villages in the east while wearing deaths head insignia round their necks that - to my eye - are pretty much indistinguishable from SS regalia.


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## Idris2002 (May 2, 2013)

co-op said:


> Did you bother read the post you're responding to? I agreed it was an invasion, just that calling it "eastern Poland" is daft; it was Poland's eastern lebesraum, taken by force just 20 years earlier.
> 
> The USSR was prepared to guarantee Poland's borders as part of continued attempts by the USSR to form an alliance against Hitler, an alliance which the western powers continually rebuffed and prevaricated about - by 1939 they were acting unilaterally.
> 
> ...


 
Link me, baby.

I'll note that I can well remember listening to Radio Moscow on the night of the M/R pact's 50th anniversary. The announcer was obviously extremely embarassed about it, and tried to justify it on purely pragmatic grounds as a defensive measure to buy time.


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## likesfish (May 2, 2013)

Death head insignia were very popular with lots of military units are own 19/21st hussars had them as well as 
Loads of others before the nazis.


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## Pickman's model (May 2, 2013)

co-op said:


> Did you bother read the post you're responding to? I agreed it was an invasion, just that calling it "eastern Poland" is daft; it was Poland's eastern lebesraum, taken by force just 20 years earlier.


i did read your post and i thought that you would do me the courtesy of reading mine where i thought that you would have been pleased i had taken into a/c the objections you made to my earlier contribution: hence my inclusion of 1939 polish borders, recognising the artificiality of the frontier.

but no, you didn't because you wanted to crash right on without engaging brain.

next.


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## co-op (May 2, 2013)

Idris2002 said:


> Link me, baby.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Idris2002 (May 2, 2013)

likesfish said:


> Death head insignia were very popular with lots of military units are own 19/21st hussars had them as well as
> Loads of others before the nazis.


 
Maybe it was a normal thing, but if I saw a bunch of lads mit der Totenkopf coming down my street, well . . .


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## Idris2002 (May 2, 2013)

co-op said:


> And there's a fair case to say that it was, surely?


 
Yeah it was. For months Joe had been begging for some sort of mutual asssitance pact vs. the Reich, and had got nowhere.

But that's no consolation to Poland.


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## likesfish (May 2, 2013)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totenkopf#Non-German_military

Started with the prussians


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## Pickman's model (May 2, 2013)

co-op said:


> If you're just going to grind some olde anarchist beef about the USSR you're never really going to be able to get a handle on anything to do with its history. Perhaps you want to read up on the Polish-Ukraine war of the 40s or check out photos of Polish officers cleansing villages in the east while wearing deaths head insignia round their necks that - to my eye - are pretty much indistinguishable from SS regalia.


pls point to where i was grinding any auld anarchist beef in my post. i sort of took it for granted that everyone accepted stalin wasn't all that kind to the inhabitants of poland (within the borders of 1939). perhaps you want to read up on the soviet union and poland (within the borders of 1939), what happened there between sept. 1939 and june 1941: and of course when the red army had the germans on the run.


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## Pickman's model (May 2, 2013)

likesfish said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totenkopf#Non-German_military
> 
> Started with the prussians


you bastard 

i was about to link to that


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