# [Wed 9th Nov 2011] NCAFC National Student Demo against Privatisation (London, WC1E 7HY)



## BigTom (Sep 11, 2011)

Facebook event

for those not on FB:



			
				NCAFC facebook event said:
			
		

> ---If you want to be involved in planning the demo then join the planning mailing list: http://bit.ly/planNatDemo ----
> 
> 
> Last year the Tory-Lib Dem government scrapped EMA and raised university tuition fees to £9000, betraying election pledges and effectively pricing many of us out of education. Those who want to go onto masters degrees or doctorates are facing uncapped and rapidly rising fees, at the same time as cuts to what little funding exists to support them. Now the government is attempting to push through a wave of privatisation that threatens to make universities about profit and management, not about students or social justice. Going to uni or getting a decent job will become even more the preserve of the rich.
> ...



Hopefully this will have the same anger and vitality as the tuition fee demos did last year.


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## BigTom (Oct 10, 2011)

Can't find a link but seen on twitter that this demo will be going to the city rather than to parliament, which I reckon to be a good move.

It's also been supported by NUS which is useful for getting student unions to put on coaches.  Anyone wanting to come down from Birmingham, pm me and I'll give you details of a coach for non-students


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## where to (Oct 10, 2011)

> Following the student assembly this Sunday, we can confirm the starting point for the national demo.
> 
> *We will be assembling at the University of London Union at 12 noon on November 9th.*
> 
> ...


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## where to (Oct 12, 2011)




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## where to (Oct 21, 2011)

Police threaten to ban students from marching on the City: protesters launch campaign to defend the right to protest


Students condemn police U-turn not to let November 9th demonstration march on the City
Decision taken at a senior level not to allow student protest near financial district
Protesters launch campaign for the freedom to march in the City, as Occupylsx pitches more tents
The Metropolitan Police is threatening to ban a student demonstration from marching on the City. The protest on November 9th, called by the National Campaign Against Fees and Cuts and supported by NUS and many trade unionists, will assemble at 12 noon at the University of London Union on Malet Street.

Organisers were then planning to march on the City and to rally at Bank, as had been democratically decided at an assembly and implicitly confirmed at a police meeting earlier in the week. But police have now gone back on this, saying that it would cause “traffic disruption.”

The move comes in the midst of the Occupy movement, which has drawn support from targeting financial interests. Students and occupiers are supporting each other.

In a statement, NCAFC said: *“The National Campaign Against Fees and Cuts would like to reassure all those planning to attend the demonstration that whatever the outcome of negotiations it will go ahead, and will be planned safely and stewarded well. We condemn attempts by senior Met officials to deny ordinary people the freedom to march in the City, where bankers and politicians are squandering and privatising our future.”*
*
*
Michael Chessum, from the NCAFC and a member of the NUS NEC, said: “We will be going back into negotiations in good faith on Monday, and we hope by that time the police will have reconsidered this absurd and undemocratic position.”

Maev McDaid, President of the Liverpool Guild of Students, said: “In a time when ‘Occupy’ movements are taking over cities across the world, in protest against unjust policies of their governments and in the face of police brutality, we pose a serious threat to the undemocratic coalition. They have no electoral mandate for the changes they are making in higher education and students have organised to protest this.”

Sean Rillo Razcka, the Vice President of the University of London Union, and one of the negotiators, said: “I am saddened that the police feel that students should not be allowed our democratic right to protest. The inconvenience our march will cause is minimal in comparison to the government’s smashing of education and the welfare state.”

Kanja Sessay, NUS Black Students’ Officer, said: “I am shocked that the police feel it right to ban our march. The peaceful occupation outside St. Pauls’s shows that the City has nothing to fear from people exercising their democratic rights.”

Mark Bergfeld, a member of the NUS NEC, said: “Students have been standing up for everyone under attack. Thus the attack on their right to protest is an attack on the entire trade union movement.”


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## where to (Oct 23, 2011)

buses coming from York, Birmingham, Liverpool and more.


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## BigTom (Oct 23, 2011)

http://ianbone.wordpress.com/2011/10/23/cabbies-and-electricians-taking-action-on-november-9th/

Cabbies are going to block Trafalgar Square, and there sparks have some action on the 9th, as well as the student demo (and from the subtext of that and other things I've seen on twitter, the sparks are going to join the students in the city).

Going to be a busy day!


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## ska invita (Nov 7, 2011)

BigTom said:


> http://ianbone.wordpress.com/2011/10/23/cabbies-and-electricians-taking-action-on-november-9th/
> 
> , the sparks are going to join the students in the city


are they though? I really  hope so

Ian's link suggest they're trudging to Trafalgar Sq - and shutting down work sites around town. Still a fair old walk over to Moorgate which looks like the Final Destination for the student demo. Would be great if there was a meet up.





BTW what's the cabbies grievance?


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## krink (Nov 7, 2011)

ska invita said:


> BTW what's the cabbies grievance?



I don't think there is enough room on the internet to list them all


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## BigTom (Nov 7, 2011)

The cabbies is something to do with VIP lanes for the olympics and them not being able to use them (I think bus/taxi lanes are being converted).

I had the impression that the sparkies were joining the students - it's the cabbies who are at trafalgar square.


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## BigTom (Nov 7, 2011)

http://www.latentexistence.me.uk/escalation-of-protest-policing-rubber-bullets-on-standby/

Police put rubber bullet cops on standby for Nov 9th.. will be a bad day if they escalate to using baton rounds.


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## butchersapron (Nov 7, 2011)

Rubber or plastic? Big difference.


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## BigTom (Nov 7, 2011)

This is the reuters report:



> Simon Pountain, the commander in charge of policing Wednesday's protest, said that baton rounds -- non-lethal "rubber bullets" -- would be used only in an emergency such as to rescue officers from attack



I don't know if rubber bullets is in quotations because Simon Pountain has said that or because they are not actually rubber bullets.


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## Mr.Bishie (Nov 7, 2011)

http://anticuts.com/2011/11/07/ncafc-statement-on-police-violence-threats/


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## Mr.Bishie (Nov 7, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Rubber or plastic? Big difference.



As far as i'm aware, rubber isn't used anymore.


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## butchersapron (Nov 7, 2011)

Mr.Bishie said:


> As far as i'm aware, rubber isn't used anymore.


Great, they kept the worse one.

Good article from 1985 New Scientist here from the weeks after Broadwater farm (forgot who sent me this,but thanks)


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## dennisr (Nov 8, 2011)

BigTom said:


> The cabbies is something to do with VIP lanes for the olympics and them not being able to use them (I think bus/taxi lanes are being converted).



the cabbies demo will be kicked off by RMT union members day of protest:

*London taxi driver members of specialist transport union RMT will be holding a day of protest next Wednesday (9 November) over attacks on the licensed taxi trade*
_"Kicking off the action, RMT London Taxi Branch will be holding a demonstration outside the headquarters of TFL Windsor house Victoria Street SW1 between 2-4pm on Wed 9 November to highlight complaints over the poor treatment, bad policies and contempt that the Taxi/private hire office have shown towards the RMT taxi branch and the trade in general.... Later in the day, RMT taxi members will be playing a supporting role in a wider demonstration involving taxi drivers from other taxi organisations in Trafalgar Square at 4pm."_

http://www.rmt.org.uk/Templates/Internal.asp?NodeID=151793


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## treelover (Nov 8, 2011)

'My great granddad once said to my dad when he was a child, that one day the rich and powerful would try to take away all the rights, freedoms and opportunities that we have fought for for generations. This is now a reality, and if we do not stand up and fight we will lose them.'

London Met Student Union President
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/nov/08/students-higher-education-white-paper


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## Orang Utan (Nov 8, 2011)

very stupid question coming up: it would be a bad idea to take my bike along with me to this march, wouldn't it?


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## BigTom (Nov 8, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> very stupid question coming up: it would be a bad idea to take my bike along with me to this march, wouldn't it?


I've seen quite a few people with bikes at demos and I think they are mad.. I guess it would let you move quickly if you need to, but I don't really see what advantages it gives you, unless you really feel like you need an excuse to have a cycle helmet with you.


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## Orang Utan (Nov 8, 2011)

i have to get to the march somehow and don't fancy locking it up in central london, but i also don't want to get kettled, or worse, with it.


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## BigTom (Nov 8, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> i have to get to the march somehow and don't fancy locking it up in central london, but i also don't want to get kettled, or worse, with it.


right.. well, I'd try to avoid it if you can.. on the squatting protest there's video of the police taking someones bike from them in the kettle.
If it's a big kettle that wouldn't be a problem but getting out with it would be a bit more awkward that without


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## Orang Utan (Nov 8, 2011)

arseshitbollocks. i'll have to watch it on the telly then.


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## BigTom (Nov 9, 2011)

Is it really that bad in central london you couldn't lock your bike up if it became clear you needed to?
I'd say there's a fair chance that you could just join the march and not get caught up in a kettle, but there's also a good chance you won't be able to avoid it even if you tried.


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## Orang Utan (Nov 9, 2011)

i dunno, people are always having bikes nicked it seems. i might lock it somewhere if i had two D locks, but i only have one and a couple of cable locks which are easy to snip through. it's a decent bike, i'm not insured and it's my only method of transportation at the moment as i can't afford public transport. i can't really afford to even have bits of it nicked!


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## BigTom (Nov 9, 2011)

I can understand that, especially as you're not insured.  Just a shame it means you won't be able to come along.  Maybe other people here have experience of coming to a demo on a bike (aside from critical mass obv.), I don't get it myself, but I guess there's a fair few for whom it's the only method of transport available, so it's out of neccessity rather than a tactical decision


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## OneStrike (Nov 9, 2011)

There will be enough people around to lock your bike up on the edges with a d-lock and have little risk, its 95% sure, depends on the value of your bike/to you.

Big Tom, i'm coming down from in between Cov and Leics in a car so i'll be ok, anyone on coaches risks the football away trip treatment.  I can see coaches geting pulled into service stations and being searched.


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## BigTom (Nov 9, 2011)

I try not to get coaches to demos, already in London seeing friends, as is my usual way. More because I don't want to be restricted in time than anything else.. it'll be interesting to see if any coaches do get pulled up and searched.


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## A Dashing Blade (Nov 9, 2011)

Very heavy police presence in City atm, for some reason they're paying particular attention to the Crossrail building site at junction of London Wall & Moorgate (ie where the march finishes)


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## BigTom (Nov 9, 2011)

A Dashing Blade said:


> Very heavy police presence in City atm, for some reason they're paying particular attention to the Crossrail building site at junction of London Wall & Moorgate (ie where the march finishes)



That's because the sparkies are out this morning, demonstrating at building sites, before joining the march on the city later.  From what I've seen on twitter 500-1000 people on the demos, closing roads, police unable to stop them from going where they want.. big and militant, sounds great


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## nino_savatte (Nov 9, 2011)

It's a shame that I can't go to this today.


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## treelover (Nov 9, 2011)

media blackout on the 'sparks' protests today?


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## pianissimo (Nov 9, 2011)

We got an email from this ever-so-corporate building stating we had to bring IDs today 'cos of the demo.

On the contrary, couple of our colleagues wearing hoodies today to blend in with the students


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## krink (Nov 9, 2011)

even student angle being ignored - so far i've heard one story on radio 5live but nowt on tv news channels as far as i can see.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Nov 9, 2011)

treelover said:


> media blackout on the 'sparks' protests today?



I saw something mentioned in The Telegraph


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## treelover (Nov 9, 2011)

krink said:


> even student angle being ignored - so far i've heard one story on radio 5live but nowt on tv news channels as far as i can see.



full coverage in the G as it happens..


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## krink (Nov 9, 2011)

will have a look, ta


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Nov 9, 2011)

Why did they pick a Wednesday for the demo anyway?  It clashes with PMQs


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## Blagsta (Nov 9, 2011)

A lot of students have weds afternoons off


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## Orang Utan (Nov 9, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Why did they pick a Wednesday for the demo anyway? It clashes with PMQs


why would that matter?


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## treelover (Nov 9, 2011)

tweets are saying tens of thousands?


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Nov 9, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> why would that matter?



Because the news might be showing the protest instead of PMQs


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## sptme (Nov 9, 2011)

live aerial footage: http://rt.com/on-air/uk-student-demonstration-cuts/


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## Roadkill (Nov 9, 2011)

Guardian live feed giving an estimate of 15k...


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## gabi (Nov 9, 2011)

Is there even a protest? I work right by where it supposedly is (fitzrovia) - more choppers up there than brixton on a sunday night, streets closed, but only a few stragglers with brummie/manc accents wandering around.


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## editor (Nov 9, 2011)

Eme's there now. 'Nuff cops about.


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## gabi (Nov 9, 2011)

The electricians and black cab drivers were daily-mash enough.. but line-dancing jewish irishmen.. wtf


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## fractionMan (Nov 9, 2011)

Good live blog here: http://live.ele.ph/Event/November_9th_Demonstration


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## souljacker (Nov 9, 2011)

Protesters seem to be setting up tents in Trafalgar Square. That's not going to go down well.


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## Orang Utan (Nov 9, 2011)

gabi said:


> The electricians and black cab drivers were daily-mash enough.. but line-dancing jewish irishmen.. wtf


He's a defrocked Catholic priest, not Jewish!


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## Flanflinger (Nov 9, 2011)

souljacker said:


> Protesters seem to be setting up tents in Trafalgar Square. That's not going to go down well.


Let 'em be if they're causing no trouble.


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## Flanflinger (Nov 9, 2011)

Jimmy Savilles funeral now on Sky.


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## Ground Elder (Nov 9, 2011)

from the Guardian's blog -


> Lucy Gettings, who is on the march near the Royal Courts of Justice, reports builders on scaffolding waving "unite the fight" placards. "It's good to see so much support from non-students; these cuts affect everyone."


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## treelover (Nov 9, 2011)

http://twitpic.com/7cevzz

Sparks being kettled?, why is it so importantant 100 working class men aren't allowed to join the students march

question answered....


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## treelover (Nov 9, 2011)

‎'14.08
 Tabby Kinder and Lene Wold report that protestors are now on Aldwych, and protestors are stopped at the Strand. Constructions workers are taking off their helmets and holding up anti-cuts banners in support of marching students.
 Yay!!'


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## friedaweed (Nov 9, 2011)

What's with the pitching of tents in TS


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## Orang Utan (Nov 9, 2011)

Occupy Trafalgar Square?
I think they mean to arrest a lot of people. 
They said on the BBC that anyone not going on the agreed route is subject to arrest. 
Police will let people know the agrees route via Twitter and via leaflets and loudhailer.


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## krink (Nov 9, 2011)

pushing and shoving on that rt link now


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## fractionMan (Nov 9, 2011)

They've arrested all the tent people and removed all the tents.


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## Kaka Tim (Nov 9, 2011)

Fucking hell - the BBC correspondant mike saregent (realted to john I presume in true bbc nepotism style) is an utter dick.


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## sunnysidedown (Nov 9, 2011)

fractionMan said:


> Good live blog here: http://live.ele.ph/Event/November_9th_Demonstration



 Alex Badrick is a twat.


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## bi0boy (Nov 9, 2011)

Sky's aerial footage is the same as RT's but delayed by about a minute.


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## killer b (Nov 9, 2011)

Kaka Tim said:


> Fucking hell - the BBC correspondant mike saregent (realted to john I presume in true bbc nepotism style) is an utter dick.


his son.


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## A Dashing Blade (Nov 9, 2011)

Roadkill said:


> Guardian live feed giving an estimate of 15k...


Couple of thousand absolute absolute max from the live feed at corner of London Wall and Moorgate surely  . . .


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## SpineyNorman (Nov 9, 2011)

A Dashing Blade said:


> Couple of thousand absolute absolute max from the live feed at corner of London Wall and Moorgate surely . . .



Looked bigger than that on the live footage sky were showing. I agree 15k looks like an exaggeration though.


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## Orang Utan (Nov 9, 2011)

ace photo: http://www.flickr.com/photos/schudio/6328935820/in/pool-student-protest-posters-and-placards


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## DaveCinzano (Nov 9, 2011)

Isn't that picture from the 26 March TUC demo?


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## Orang Utan (Nov 9, 2011)

so it is.


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## Mr.Bishie (Nov 9, 2011)

Lots of plain clothes plod today by a few accounts

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2evPgG1RrDg


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## BigTom (Nov 9, 2011)

just got back to my mates house half an hour ago.. didn't get arrested, shot or kettled, but also didn't take any action.. ran around london for a bit, but police where very keen to stop us from getting somewhere (I don't know London - I presume it was the city).

heard lots of reports of plain clothes police, saw one myself - tried to arrest someone, but failed as the crowd reacted to the arrestee getting pulled away and grabbed him.  There were two officers together, one having lost hold of the arrestee turned to the crowd and shouted "police, get back" or words to that effect.. he was very well built and scary enough that everyone stopped for a moment, which gave him and his mate enough time to get back to police lines, the crowd was going to attack him.
I heard of other plains clothes getting attacked by protesters, but didn't witness any other incidents so I've no idea if it's true.
They were also doing the throw paint at people tactic, saw a few with paint splashes on their clothes.

There were also lots of snatch squads grabbing people from the black bloc (which was about 50, maybe 100 strong where I was).  Only saw 1 arrest against half a dozen successful preventions, but it totally broke up the bloc, most people demasked rather than risk arrest.  Something that black bloc will have to learn how to deal with in the future - blocs will need to be larger, tighter and possibly escorted by unmasked people who will keep watch and form a line to slow down/prevent police from getting to anyone)

Big barriers were setup across Fleet street, which was the originally requested route, clearly no way through that, but the march stopped there for a bit as people wanted to go to the city.  Proceeded up whatever street, police formed a line and blocked it (this was on the agreed route).  Possibly their thought was that the march was splitting and they wanted it all together.
Anyway, we pushed through that police line, they weren't in riot gear (though during this push they put on helmets), but did do a horse charge, after which missiles started to be thrown, this was also where I witnessed the plain clothes copper.  We broke through the line and continued on, another cordon was thrown up which I went past as it was forming, and then found myself at the end point of the march, which was suprising.
Went for a bit of a walk/run around some backstreets, and thus avoided the kettle at Moorgate.  Ended up at St Pauls, but didn't hang around as friends were getting coaches home.

BBC have said 20 arrests, GBC legal said that they had 60 reported.. the discrepancy could be down to arrest/dearrest - I know one person who was arrested and almost immediately dearrested, or down to duplicate reports.

Didn't join up with the sparks which is a shame, they got kettled somewhere from what I heard.

Policing today felt different to previous demos, I don't know what it was like in the moorgate kettle, perhaps it's just that I was in a breakaway group for the first time.  I didn't see any  property destruction or violence from protesters, beyond a few things being thrown at police lines. (nothing serious though - eggs, placards and sticks).  Police weren\t as vicious as usual either, but I did get horse charged and punched twice (both in the chest, on different occassions, neither really hurt, I doubt I'll even bruise), only saw batons drawn on a couple of occasions - one after a failed snatch squad attempt where the whole bloc was together and turned on the squad, and one on a quickly drawn cordon when we were running around back streets.
Not sure what to make of it - it'll be interesting to hear from those caught in Moorgate to see what they have to say.  Seems like police decided to target "troublemakers" from the start and arrest as many as possible - the snatch squads were going after masked protesters from the start, before anything had gone on at all.  They def. picked people who looked to be on their own or had drifted away from the block.


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## smokedout (Nov 9, 2011)

disappointing day, numbers were respectable but not great, huge police presence swamped it and sorry to say but the students looked out of ideas this time round


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## DaveCinzano (Nov 9, 2011)

BigTom said:


> ...a failed snatch squad attempt where the whole bloc was together and turned on the squad...


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## ddraig (Nov 9, 2011)

nice one BT
ta


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## BigTom (Nov 9, 2011)

DaveCinzano said:


>



yeah - I think that we didn't do too badly with the snatch squads - I should say that incident, no violence was committed on either side, it was just a face off where the squad drew batons and backed off to police lines.
However, I did see one arrest, and a I'm sure there were more for masks, and it did break up the black bloc completely (although later on lots of people where back in all black)



smokedout said:


> disappointing day, numbers were respectable but not great, huge police presence swamped it and sorry to say but the students looked out of ideas this time round



Yeah, the police presence did swamp it, I don't think anyone knew how to deal with it.. there were plans involving fleet street (? my geography is poor) but the barriers got in the way of that.





TopCat posted this on another thread - these are the barriers at fleet street.. police / barrier / horses / barrier / police .. no way through that!
e2a: now seeing the photo from the back they are not as solid as they appeared from the street.
There's definitely going to need to be some discussions about tactics because the police were on top of this demo in a way they weren't at all on Dec 9th last year, or on March 26th.
Sheer numbers perhaps, the snatch squad breaking up black bloc, lots of plains clothes nicking known activists perhaps.. all contributed to this being more or less an a-b march.

I don't really understand why people tried to setup camp in trafalgar square again, that was never going to be allowed. I assume those arrested got dearrested, or there'd be a lot more than 20-60 arrests.

UKUncut did go into some corporate tax conference and stop Dave Hartnett (HMRC boss who made dodgy tax deals) from making his speech so other stuff did happen.

The most dissapointing thing for me is that the students and sparks didn't get to join up, although clearly the connections have been made and it's just a matter of time - some fair amount of support at construction sites along the march route.

I thought it was fine though, not a great day but not a bad one either.


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## OneStrike (Nov 9, 2011)

I can't add much to Big Toms experience, mine was similar and he has already said a lot. UkUncut seem to have had a successful stunt, its the first i've heard of it.  I was right about the northern buses getting stopped, stalled and searched, someone from Bradford was arrested for having felt-tip-pens about their person?

The undercover police weren't great at being undercover, it might of been paranoia but i felt as though i could spot them all (once i'd seen a couple of snatch'n'grabs).

They must feed the police horses far too much fibre! shit everywhere.


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## BigTom (Nov 9, 2011)

OneStrike said:


> I can't add much to Big Toms experience, mine was similar and he has already said a lot. UkUncut seem to have had a successful stunt, its the first i've heard of it. I was right about the northern buses getting stopped, stalled and searched, someone from Bradford was arrested for having felt-tip-pens about their person?



Lots of buses got stopped, but not all of them by any means, one from Birmingham did, one didn't (not spoken to anyone on the bus that did get stopped so I don't know what happened).  I've also heard that someone got nicked for having marker pens but I can't confirm that.


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## Citizen66 (Nov 9, 2011)

smokedout said:


> disappointing day, numbers were respectable but not great, huge police presence swamped it and sorry to say but the students looked out of ideas this time round



Did you turn up to show solidarity? If not, don't snipe about numbers.


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## redsquirrel (Nov 9, 2011)

BigTom said:


> The most dissapointing thing for me is that the students and sparks didn't get to join up, although clearly the connections have been made and it's just a matter of time - some fair amount of support at construction sites along the march route.


At least there was a proper attempt to combine forces and the recognition that this is a single fight.


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## Citizen66 (Nov 9, 2011)

Also trade unions having a different date for their walk out. This weakens us all.


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## OneStrike (Nov 9, 2011)

Citizen66 said:


> Also trade unions having a different date for their walk out. This weakens us all.



The 30th? most people i spoke to saw today as a prelude to that.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 9, 2011)

the discrepancy in arrest figures (sky said 24) is likely down to quite a few arrests for breach of the peace and then people let go after. i don't know what discussions about tactics might throw up, because today people weren't up for a massive scrap or run about, there weren't the numbers for it and quite frankly there wasn't the opportunity. the entire route from at least trafalgar square onwards was effectively kettled by the cops, with cops from at least wales, sussex, surrey, west midlands and thames valley out supplementing the level 2 officers and cops from at least 2 and 5 tsg from the met, the limited resources of the city of london police and a scattering of british transport police. well before the march approached the turn to shaftesbury avenue there were cops from hammersmith and fulham with round shields out blocking the way towards holborn. that was among the very early signs that this was not going to be a repeat of last year's fun and games. superintendents were conspicuous for the first time i can recall in years, and i saw several with their orange public order epaulettes on. there were far more senior officers on the ground than usual.
today neither of the advantages the black bloc - or demonstrators more widely - can enjoy were there. the protestors enjoyed neither surprise nor mobility. the police had sewn up every road for miles (apart from one, but as i got out of the march through that i'm hardly going to announce it here lest next time they block it).
if there are to be discussions and post mortems, they should imo focus on why so few people turned out for this as compared to last year.


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## purenarcotic (Nov 9, 2011)

I think people feel disillusioned about the whole thing now.  The appetite has disappeared as people saw the huge numbers and drama and ultimately saw that nothing changed.  Fees are still set to rise.

I think public support is there, apathy just seems to have set in.

I could be talking bollocks though, it's just the impression I've sensed from friends who went last year but didn't bother this year.


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## BigTom (Nov 9, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> if there are to be discussions and post mortems, they should imo focus on why so few people turned out for this as compared to last year.



Initial thoughts on that:
Tuition Fees were easier to mobilise around, and many uni students had voted for Lib Dems because of the tuition fees pledge and were angry about the promise being broken
plans to scrap EMA brought out lots of school students - there were a fair few around today but didn't feel like anywhere near as many as on the dec 9th demo (I wasn't at either of the others)
I think the NUS put more effort into the demos last year, this one they put their name to it but didn't do anything else.  I guess it will vary from uni to uni but in Birmingham certainly the student unions didn't work to get people down to the demo like they did last year.


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## smokedout (Nov 10, 2011)

BigTom said:


> I thought it was fine though, not a great day but not a bad one either.



yeah I was probably being unfair, suppose I just hoped for a bit more.

I do think it was a shame that people didnt regroup in the city after the dispersals, but then the Met were still out in force so it probably wouldnt have got very far.  also fleet street was always going to be blocked, it was the one obvious place where the sparks, st pauls and the march could have met, and its also a charge in many directions from there to st pauls which for some reason they were obsessed with preventing.  there were a couple of other missed opportunities to break out into the city, which might not have been missed had more people been aware of the geography, but thats probably a bit nit-picky as well.

I think in terms of numbers that the threat to shoot people may well have put off a lot of younger people, school kids etc we may have heard it all before, but they havent and that kind of thing takes on a life of its own amongst teenagers.  also the publicity didnt seem as visible as it was last year, i also think the various facebook purges and daft sentencing have curtailed peoples confidence is organising through social media (not necessarily a bad thing either in the long run)

its a big problem, i feel the STWC law of diminishing returns could apply very quickly, hopefully people will come out on the 23rd, if numbers are way down on that as well then its hard to see how any motivation may be regained, although a tactical shift might help address that, it was very much an A to B affair yesterday and weve seen how quickly people lose motivation if that continues

facebook event for the 23rd is at: http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=133272603446635


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## BigTom (Nov 10, 2011)

personally I think the 23rd will flop, I don't know why they've called it.. not enough time to do it. would have been better to have done a bigger push to get students (both school and uni) out in support on the 30th (which they are also doing).


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## ska invita (Nov 11, 2011)

Report on the Occupy Trafalgar Square attempt - not happy reading though
http://london.indymedia.org/articles/10940

What is section 12 btw?


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## Pickman's model (Nov 11, 2011)

ska invita said:


> Report on the Occupy Trafalgar Square attempt - not happy reading though
> http://london.indymedia.org/articles/10940


it was a bloody silly idea.


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## gunneradt (Nov 11, 2011)

ska invita said:


> Report on the Occupy Trafalgar Square attempt - not happy reading though
> http://london.indymedia.org/articles/10940
> 
> What is section 12 btw?



looked hilarious to me


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## SpineyNorman (Nov 11, 2011)

gunneradt said:


> looked hilarious to me



Fuck me you're dull. You're  right wing troll who doesn't know how to troll in a right wing manner. I could do it better than you.

Why don't you fuck off, kick the dog again and have another wank?


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## gunneradt (Nov 11, 2011)

SpineyNorman said:


> Fuck me you're dull. You're right wing troll who doesn't know how to troll in a right wing manner. I could do it better than you.
> 
> Why don't you fuck off, kick the dog again and have another wank?



There really is no need to bring the highlights of your evening to a thread.

Honest - those videos are hilarious.  If you can't see that you're the dull one.  I might send it in to you've been framed.


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## albionism (Nov 11, 2011)

What's funny about them, you thick twat.


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## gunneradt (Nov 11, 2011)

albionism said:


> What's funny about them, you thick twat.



oh come on theyre hilarious.  Twit protesters set up ickle mini village and then hold hands like little children and drag their feet when nasty mr policeman takes them away.  If you cant see the funny side there's something wrong


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## BigTom (Nov 11, 2011)

ska invita said:


> Report on the Occupy Trafalgar Square attempt - not happy reading though
> http://london.indymedia.org/articles/10940
> 
> What is section 12 btw?



Section 12 Public Order Act 1986

I think it was subsection (5) that they got arrested under -



> A person who takes part in a public procession knowingly fails to comply with a condition imposed under this section is guilty of an offence, but it is a defence for him to prove that the failure arose from circumstances beyond his control.




basically police tell you to leave, if you refuse then you can get nicked.  There is also s14 of this act which is basically the same but applies to static demos (rallies)


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## ska invita (Nov 11, 2011)

BigTom said:


> Section 12 Public Order Act 1986
> 
> I think it was subsection (5) that they got arrested under -
> 
> basically police tell you to leave, if you refuse then you can get nicked. There is also s14 of this act which is basically the same but applies to static demos (rallies)


Thanks Tom, Im just wondering if the police had the right to ask people to move from a public square (Trafalgar). I guess at StPauls there's the thing where the church sort of allowed them to stay. But thats not the case at Finsbury is it?


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## ska invita (Nov 11, 2011)

Reel News Sparks footage:


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## BigTom (Nov 11, 2011)

ska invita said:


> Thanks Tom, Im just wondering if the police had the right to ask people to move from a public square (Trafalgar). I guess at StPauls there's the thing where the church sort of allowed them to stay. But thats not the case at Finsbury is it?



ianal obviously 


> Imposing conditions on public processions.
> (1)If the senior police officer, having regard to the time or place at which and the circumstances in which any public procession is being held or is intended to be held and to its route or proposed route, reasonably believes that—
> (a)it may result in* serious public disorder, serious damage to property or serious disruption to the life of the community*, or
> (b)the purpose of the persons organising it is the intimidation of others with a view to compelling them not to do an act they have a right to do, or to do an act they have a right not to do,
> he may give directions imposing on the persons organising or taking part in the procession such conditions as appear to him necessary to prevent such disorder, damage, disruption or intimidation, including conditions as to the route of the procession or prohibiting it from entering any public place specified in the directions.



Now as far as I understand it, the subsection above (1) is what allows the police to place conditions on a march (there is also s14 of the same act which is basically exactly the same but for assemblies, that would apply to St Pauls or Finsbury Sq).
I've bolded the important bit.  It will be interesting to see if/when it gets to court how they justify it.  I would guess they would say serious public disorder, possibly serious damage to property, on the basis of what went on in Trafalgar Sq on March 26th, and in general on the previous student demonstrations.
I'm not sure whether that would be enough or whether they would need to show that this particular group of people had acted in a way to mean that the senior police officer could reasonably believe they would lead to serious public disorder/property damage.
I can't see how they could go for serious disruption, not in trafalgar square, and particularly with the cabbies demo later that day that could disrupt the community through traffic jams etc.
(b) could not apply, intimidation clearly isn't the aim of this.

One thing I'm not sure of is that there was an agreed route for the march, and it's possible that given an agreed route, any deviation from that route would fall foul of s12, but I really don't think that could be the case, and at the Lib Dem conference in Birmingham, when some people tried to break away from the march to occupy a Natwest, they were stopped under s12 and the officer did state that he believed there would be serious public disorder if he allowed them to leave the march, so I don't think this is the case.
I would guess that it might be useful as part of the evidence to show how someone could reasonably believe there would be public disorder, though my opinion would be that the people leaving the march should have to do something more than simply leave the march to fall foul of s12.  This might be as little as having flags/banners which indicate allegience to an organsiation/ideology which is associated with public disorder/property damage.. however, the occupy london spaces are not associated with this (and if they were then I should imagine they would be cleared by the police pretty sharpish, at least in Finsbury Sq), so I don't see how this could apply to occupy trafalgar square.  Additionally, afaik, the previous occupy Trafalgar Square things had not been accompanied by public disorder/property damage.

I suspect - and I wasn't in trafalgar sqaure, so this is total conjecture - that the police overstretched their powers (though not by much) and that no-one will see a court room over this.  At the same time, I'm not sure that those arrested would succeed with an unlawful arrest case, as a judge who is sympathetic to the police could well think it was reasonable given the context of the student demo happening at that time, which the occupiers had broken away from, and which had been hyped so much beforehand as potentially violent (and with the wider context of previous demos).

I don't think that public/private land matters in the context of s12, at least in legal terms.  In political/practical terms, the police would probably prefer that the land owner went down the eviction route.. less effort for the police as it's a civil matter.


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## SpineyNorman (Nov 12, 2011)

gunneradt said:


> oh come on theyre hilarious. Twit protesters set up ickle mini village and then hold hands like little children and drag their feet when nasty mr policeman takes them away. If you cant see the funny side you're clearly not a socially inadequate virgin like me.



Quite right gunneradt, quite right.


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## audiotech (Nov 14, 2011)

This has surfaced:


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## shaman75 (Nov 14, 2011)

Good vid that ^ Just seen it.

Another one here featuring newspapers.


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## audiotech (Nov 14, 2011)

This ^ is laughable. The commentary about them looking like "Eastern Europeans" is plain daft. Who do they think they are the Stasi?

It looks as though that they managed to arrest a wet behind the ears student, who will, if in all likelihood that it goes to court, which I doubt looking at the events unfolding, will probably walk with a fine at most.

Just point and laugh is my advice.


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## shaman75 (Nov 14, 2011)

I watched it with the sound off


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## rekil (Nov 16, 2011)

There's a large student demo on in Dublin atm, purporting to be about opposition to fees but essentially it's routine posturing and an attack on Labour by student union bigwig and FF hack, Gary Redmond. Not worth its own thread but liveblog here.


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## treelover (Nov 16, 2011)

that reel news video is fantastic, is on on the OLSX facebook yet...


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## BigTom (Nov 23, 2011)

smokedout said:


> its a big problem, i feel the STWC law of diminishing returns could apply very quickly, hopefully people will come out on the 23rd, if numbers are way down on that as well then its hard to see how any motivation may be regained, although a tactical shift might help address that, it was very much an A to B affair yesterday and weve seen how quickly people lose motivation if that continues
> 
> facebook event for the 23rd is at: http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=133272603446635



Cambridge Uni disrupted a speech by David Willets (HE minister), and he didn't give it.. they then went into occupation in a Lecture theatre.
Birmingham went into occupation at around midnight
Warwick and Royal Holloway this morning
Students have opened up a social centre in Bloomsbury
York, Goldsmiths and Edinburgh went into occupation this evening.

Live blog on NCAFC website 

So not bad today, don't think Warwick and York have done anything before, but there are many other universities that had occupations last year that haven't occupied today.  I also don't know how the march in Scotland went.
It's not huge, but it might spark a few other places to take action, like the UCL occupation did last year.

I don't think numbers are way down, but the issue isn't as hot as the tuition fees was so being smaller is not too much of a surprise.


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## The Octagon (Dec 7, 2011)

Royal Holloway is my local uni, was speaking to a couple of the occupiers yesterday.

Notice of trespass served now I think, judging from the tweets.

The management threatened to withold £150,000 of bursaries for the coming year, if they were not given one of the occupied meeting rooms to discuss allocation of the funds.

Blackmailing cunts.


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