# Advice on suspension from work please.



## evildacat (Sep 1, 2016)

I have been suspended from work as a 'third' party put a complaint in that I was taking meds for a chronic injury after a hospitalisation for OD.
I did not declare this at work as I only take them as and when and do not use them when a work as they are pain killers co-codamol, tramadol and oramorph as well as a few others.

My job involves driving and the 'care' industry this is the only thing I have ever had against me on the job and with not declaring I took meds even though irregularly wanted to know if any one has been in a similar position and know the likely outcome of this?

This incident happened over three months ago and has only just been brought to me.


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## weltweit (Sep 1, 2016)

I don't know anything about the terms and conditions of your workplace but I would have thought your doctor's opinion might be important. Did you doctor say you could drive on those medicines?


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## wiskey (Sep 1, 2016)

You've been taking oramorph and driving  

Have you had any dealings with OH since you were put on the meds?


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## evildacat (Sep 1, 2016)

I didn't drive on them I take them when not at work.

sorry OH?

There is a form that asks if you take meds or not and I left it blank as I am on them sporadically, but don't take any when at work.


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## wiskey (Sep 1, 2016)

evildacat said:


> I didn't drive on them I take them when not at work.
> 
> sorry OH?
> 
> There is a form that asks if you take meds or not and I left it blank as I am on them sporadically, but don't take any when at work.


OK cool, so actually you're being investigated for using prescription painkillers (legitimately) when not at work? What does that have to do with your current employer 

OH = occupational health


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## evildacat (Sep 1, 2016)

Because I was supposed to tell them if I used meds or not and didn't even though they were aware I had a chronic pain issue, so I basically didn't tick a box or tell them I had a OD from fent that was out of work on my days off - looks like a paramedic/nurse or doc has reported me.

But from what I gather if they choose to me not ticking that box can me seen as gross misconduct. If they took a drug test on me now they would only find the stuff I have on script, I have lots of old perscriptions to back up what I have said and also the hospital discharge letter had a lot of errors in it even including the incorrect sex.

But not ticking that that box I think will fuck me.


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## evildacat (Sep 1, 2016)

gonna go to the doctors and ask them to get a report sorted for me as all this is for pain relief and out of work so hopefully that will help towards my case.

Any opinions?


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## mrs quoad (Sep 1, 2016)

There's a very large body of thought evidence suggesting that opioids are seriously problematic for any chronic, non-cancer pain.

If ℅-codamol, tramadol and oramorph are all you've been prescribed, and these are for long term pain, I'd seriously have a chat with your doctor. There aren't many people who'll come out in a better place. From that kinda prescribing regime. For chronic non-cancer pain.


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## mrs quoad (Sep 1, 2016)

opioids for noncancer pain - Google Search

Have a read of a few sources. They're not unrelentingly dismal. But there's a pretty chuffing large weight of evidence pointing towards long term opioids for non cancer pain being a pretty chuffing bad idea, for most people. 

Not all. 

But most.


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## evildacat (Sep 1, 2016)

i have never had a problem stopping and starting with any of those drugs I don't know why they just don't seem to have much of an effect on me hence the choice to self use fent which again I also have no problem stopping and starting. I have also been put on amitriptyline and gaba again with next to no effect on me even on the highest doses with these meant to reduce the nerve sensitivity.

ATM  I only use the tramadol oramorph and co-codamol when the pain is bad which is 4-5 times a month which does a little but takes away some pain.

But with me not using these at work but having been reported by a medical workers I am currently on suspension with full pay and hoping to see my doctor who know the situation and write me a letter.

I also have this month an appointment with a specialist for my chronic issue so this could also aid towards things, the doctor is aware of the little effect all these drugs have on me and no one I work with has reported me about anything.

Its just that stupid medical tick box I think might screw me.


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## wiskey (Sep 1, 2016)

Have you been referred to a pain management clinic who can do a meds review?

I hope that this happening helps things in some way and that you don't get screwed by work for it.


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## evildacat (Sep 1, 2016)

wiskey said:


> Have you been referred to a pain management clinic who can do a meds review?
> 
> I hope that this happening helps things in some way and that you don't get screwed by work for it.


no but I think with the specialist I have been sent to - one of the best in the country due to the rare type of injury it is I think the only other option is gonna be surgery because even when I was taken fent it still didn't take all the pain away and I could still feel it, I have literally been through every pain relief I can think of legally and illegally and nothing helps nor the nerve suppressants.

I fucked up one time and some nosey cunt at hospital has reported me for something that happened out of work and not one person has asked why I had taken it.
If it gets to surgery its on my foot and will be months off work also which I simply cannot afford to do either so I am in a constant catch 22 here.


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## evildacat (Sep 1, 2016)

I also wanted to get tested for the CYP2D6 enzyme as a possible reason why the meds don't work does anyone know if this is possible or a actual test exists - when I asked my doc they didn't know and said that would be something after everything else was exhausted which seems stupid to me.


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## alan_ (Sep 1, 2016)

I know it isn't precisely what you ask, but I was recently given an explanation from a methadone prescriber. It slipped out that I drove and the fucking witch jumped on it and asked if I had declared it to DVLA. Nowadays apparently roadside drugtests can detect it and one can be done for driving whilst under the influence. Thing is she said declare it (GTF) but the biggest risk is insurance. If they knew it is almost certain insurance would be withheld or invalidated. I suspect this might be the firms first line of attack. BTW what dose oromorph were you on (if it is not too personal)


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## evildacat (Sep 1, 2016)

I never took oramorph when working but I was supposed to be on 20mg but take 40 and it still does nothing I have loads of it around this is why I want that emyne test the amount of tramadol co-codamol fent and stuff I take should knock any out but it hardly touches me


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## evildacat (Sep 1, 2016)

Shit when I fucked up a fent shot which is when this report happened even though it was 3 months ago and has only just come through not knowing the exact strength it could have been the equivalent of 10-20g shot of heroin!


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## alan_ (Sep 1, 2016)

Fair enough, but I think if the firm want to get rid, regulations (motor insurance if you drive) will be the easiest way to go


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## evildacat (Sep 1, 2016)

Will they have to prove I was on those drugs and under the influence though before they can do that, atm if they want a drug test baring my script drugs I would pass.


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## wiskey (Sep 1, 2016)

If none of this stuff works and you aren't correctly dosing it why not just give it all back to the chemist for disposal?


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## alan_ (Sep 1, 2016)

evildacat said:


> Shit when I fucked up a fent shot which is when this report happened even though it was 3 months ago and has only just come through not knowing the exact strength it could have been the equivalent of 10-20g shot of heroin!


Well then you do not strike me as being opiate naive (nor why should you be) but would I be right in thinking a "fent shot" is an intraveneous injection of fentanyl?


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## alan_ (Sep 1, 2016)

wiskey said:


> If none of this stuff works and you aren't correctly dosing it why not just give it all back to the chemist for disposal?


Lets not be hasty here


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## alan_ (Sep 1, 2016)

evildacat said:


> Will they have to prove I was on those drugs and under the influence though before they can do that, atm if they want a drug test baring my script drugs I would pass.


Do you know about hair testing before you think you are over the worst?


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## wiskey (Sep 1, 2016)

alan_ said:


> Lets not be hasty here


Umm he accidentally OD'ed.... Why have it around?

Eta: and if he got it through a legit script he can presumably get more.


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## evildacat (Sep 1, 2016)

alan_ said:


> Well then you do not strike me as being opiate naive (nor why should you be) but would I be right in thinking a "fent shot" is an intraveneous injection of fentanyl?


yeah IV shot,


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## evildacat (Sep 1, 2016)

alan_ said:


> Do you know about hair testing before you think you are over the worst?


yeah I know the hair issue could be a problem as its about 90 days isn't it for most drugs and I will test positive for most on a hair sample, how likely is the hair test to a piss or blood test?


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## alan_ (Sep 1, 2016)

wiskey said:


> Umm he accidentally OD'ed.... Why have it around?
> 
> Eta: and if he got it through a legit script he can presumably get more.


Four different opiates/opiods, scripts on demand, maybe he is private.  Even so I think it is more about getting out of a tight spot than drug advice


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## evildacat (Sep 1, 2016)

wiskey said:


> Umm he accidentally OD'ed.... Why have it around?
> 
> Eta: and if he got it through a legit script he can presumably get more.



the fent was not legal everything else was,, I just fucked up one shot in many I have done. the other stuff helps take a little edge off from being excruciating to just painful so take the tramadol oramorph co-codamol and what ever else.


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## evildacat (Sep 1, 2016)

alan_ said:


> Four different opiates/opiods, scripts on demand, maybe he is private.  Even so I think it is more about getting out of a tight spot than drug advice



Yeah I am fine with the drug use and have it under control its the predicament with work I need help on and what is likely to happen.


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## alan_ (Sep 1, 2016)

swings and roundabouts with testing
piss test only shows opiates not types and i have passed them in four days but would always like five
Saliva will show which diffrent opiates you had ie show up the fent but I have passed one in two days (but would obviously like three)


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## evildacat (Sep 1, 2016)

this is what they have suspended me for in the letter I received -

'Have been misusing drugs whilst in a role that involves driving and caring for vulnerable patients.'

Which I haven't none of the evidence they have points to a time when I was at work, I OD'd on my days off and don't take rugs when working.


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## alan_ (Sep 1, 2016)

evildacat said:


> this is what they have suspended me for in the letter I received -
> 
> 'Have been misusing drugs whilst in a role that involves driving and caring for vulnerable patients.'
> 
> Which I haven't none of the evidence they have points to a time when I was at work, I OD'd on my days off and don't take rugs when working.


I should hope not leave those carpets where they are


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## alan_ (Sep 1, 2016)

I obviously dont know the strength of the evidence so you need to find out what they have. Are you in a union. If not why not?


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Sep 2, 2016)

evildacat said:


> this is what they have suspended me for in the letter I received -
> 
> 'Have been misusing drugs whilst in a role that involves driving and caring for vulnerable patients.'
> 
> Which I haven't none of the evidence they have points to a time when I was at work, I OD'd on my days off and don't take rugs when working.



I'd have thought that providing evidence was quite important before you confirm or deny anything.

I'd also ask this be moved from drugs to education and employment as there are some very knowledgeable and helpful people there.


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## evildacat (Sep 2, 2016)

nope no union. Because I saw the little effect they had on two other employees who had strong cases against the company and the rep was a waste of space tbh.

They have a A&E report sent in by a third party that shows the fent OD other then that they have nothing but me not informing them of the prescribed meds.


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## mrs quoad (Sep 2, 2016)

Try re-posting this on E&E. 

I suspect what you want / need is first and foremost employment advice. 

The drugs are just a peripheral / trigger issue. And it's unlikely to help you (IMO) if people focus first and foremost on them.


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## evildacat (Sep 2, 2016)

UnderAnOpenSky said:


> I'd have thought that providing evidence was quite important before you confirm or deny anything.
> 
> I'd also ask this be moved from drugs to education and employment as there are some very knowledgeable and helpful people there.



Thanks will do.


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## romeo2001 (Sep 2, 2016)

evildacat said:


> Thanks will do.


Sure i read on here that release support/advocate for drug users in tge work place? 
Also whoever has surely reported you has told them you used fent and your doctor will confirm youve been prescribed opiates so any drug test is moot?


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## evildacat (Sep 2, 2016)

romeo2001 said:


> Sure i read on here that release support/advocate for drug users in tge work place?
> Also whoever has surely reported you has told them you used fent and your doctor will confirm youve been prescribed opiates so any drug test is moot?



Is one of the vital issues on them to prove I was using drugs while at work which I wasn't?
They obviously have me on not informing them on the prescribed drugs I take - but I intend to go to my GP who know the little effect they have on me, do you think this will help my case any?


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## evildacat (Sep 2, 2016)

With not having a union can anyone recommend a website I can look through to help prepare my case also please.


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## alan_ (Sep 2, 2016)

romeo2001 said:


> Sure i read on here that release support/advocate for drug users in tge work place?
> Also whoever has surely reported you has told them you used fent and your doctor will confirm youve been prescribed opiates so any drug test is moot?


Where did you read that release support/advocate for drug users in the work place?
Also whoever reported might not have known the exact opiate depending on the test
I am sure you would not like to come in on a monday morning and get sacked because you had cocodomal OTC at the weekend and it showed up in a piss test


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## romeo2001 (Sep 2, 2016)

alan_ said:


> Where did you read that release support/advocate for drug users in the work place?
> Also whoever reported might not have known the exact opiate depending on the test
> I am sure you would not like to come in on a monday morning and get sacked because you had cocodomal OTC at the weekend and it showed up in a piss test


Sure it was a post on here recently


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## romeo2001 (Sep 2, 2016)

alan_ said:


> Where did you read that release support/advocate for drug users in the work place?
> Also whoever reported might not have known the exact opiate depending on the test
> I am sure you would not like to come in on a monday morning and get sacked because you had cocodomal OTC at the weekend and it showed up in a piss test


But didnt he go to hospital for an od? They would have had to have kniwn what it was tgen?


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## romeo2001 (Sep 2, 2016)

evildacat said:


> Is one of the vital issues on them to prove I was using drugs while at work which I wasn't?
> They obviously have me on not informing them on the prescribed drugs I take - but I intend to go to my GP who know the little effect they have on me, do you think this will help my case any?


That may be the where you can argue your case but i really dont know - an employment expert would be more hlp i think - have you gone through the relevant policies and your contract?


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## evildacat (Sep 2, 2016)

alan_ said:


> Where did you read that release support/advocate for drug users in the work place?
> Also whoever reported might not have known the exact opiate depending on the test
> I am sure you would not like to come in on a monday morning and get sacked because you had cocodomal OTC at the weekend and it showed up in a piss test



As far as I am aware I was not tested for the OD when taken to hospital, I told them I had fent. Would I have been informed if they had done a drug screen on me?
Also the discharge letter they gave me to give to my GP had a lot of  mistakes in it so again will this help in my favour as they claim I took heroin also but I never said this to the doc/paramedics/nurses?


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## romeo2001 (Sep 2, 2016)

evildacat said:


> As far as I am aware I was not tested for the OD when taken to hospital, I told them I had fent. Would I have been informed if they had done a drug screen on me?
> Also the discharge letter they gave me to give to my GP had a lot of  mistakes in it so again will this help in my favour as they claim I took heroin also but I never said this to the doc/paramedics/nurses?


So the chances are that that is what your employers have been told - you od'd on non-prescriptiin fent and are using heroin. If tgey do a hair test is that what it will show? Cos now you prob have to prove they are mistakes


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## evildacat (Sep 2, 2016)

romeo2001 said:


> That may be the where you can argue your case but i really dont know - an employment expert would be more hlp i think - have you gone through the relevant policies and your contract?



Not yet this literally happened tonight as I went into work as I work night shifts.


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## romeo2001 (Sep 2, 2016)

Release have a helpline and can email them. Might be worth seeing how good your employer is about supporting  substance abuse - some employers offer help rather than fire but nit sure the care sector is one of them ?


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## evildacat (Sep 2, 2016)

romeo2001 said:


> Release have a helpline and can email them. Might be worth seeing how good your employer is about supporting  substance abuse - some employers offer help rather than fire but nit sure the care sector is one of them ?



thanks having a look through now.


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## evildacat (Sep 2, 2016)

Struggling to think of a good excuse as to why I wouldn't put down the legal meds I was prescribed on, I take them sporadically and at the time I wasn't on them when filling the form out but i'm not sure if that would fly?


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## mrs quoad (Sep 2, 2016)

evildacat said:


> Struggling to think of a good excuse as to why I wouldn't put down the legal meds I was prescribed on, I take them sporadically and at the time I wasn't on them when filling the form out but i'm not sure if that would fly?


Post on E&E, ffs 

Dishonesty is often a bigger concern for employers than actual prescribed opioid use.

And overdosing on IV, illicit fentanyl is just a whole other vast ballgame. For me, that shifts things from an "oh, hmm, OK" to a "no, really, wtaf?" From an outside perspective. Injecting illicit opioids is just a whole other ballgame of "wtaf are we dealing with here?" Absolute top-end dodgy route of administration that's way beyond what most people would feel comfortable working with / handling. And a seriously dodgy opioid.

I'm guessing someone at a&e reported you and passed on your case file because they felt they had a duty of care, and were unable to keep your drug use confidential given your employment. I'm guessing that, because otherwise they'd be fucked for passing on your records for lolz. Gotta say, IMO that isn't a promising start, and it's compounded by your dishonesty (wrt actual prescriptions), abuse of prescribed medications, and sourcing & irresponsible (as evidenced by the OD) use of illicit opioids.

That's my perspective. That honesty and "legit" behaviour is often more important to employers (particularly wrt vulnerable clients) than actual prescriptions, blah.

I'm not an employment lawyer or specialist though - so, once more, would cheerily recommend posting this on E&E if you want some actual, decent, technical employment advice.


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## evildacat (Sep 2, 2016)

mrs quoad said:


> Post on E&E, ffs
> 
> Dishonesty is often a bigger concern for employers than actual prescribed opioid use.
> 
> ...



As you can now see I asked a mod to put it in the E&E sub forum.
What I have taken for my pain has never effected my job I have never had a complaint from work and this all occurred on my days off work, yes it looks like me not informing my employers that I was on meds for the injury will do me in but it didn't effect me in any way and I considered it private information. I have been on and off these meds for over a few years if there was a problem someone or something would have happened.

And as regards to the fent OD I had used it many times before but made a large error once which isn't an excuse I was stupid but I have this report saying thing that aren't true also.


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## Sprocket. (Sep 2, 2016)

First advice, if at all possible ALWAYS take a union rep or colleague into any disciplinary meetings you are asked to attend, it is your right and need to be accompanied, you can also be accompanied by a citizen's advice official. You also have the right to ask permission for a family member to accompany you if none of the above are appropriate, but this will be at your employer's discretion.

The points that personally affect you and any possible outcome comes down to your employer's Drug Misuse Policy, if they have one, it is in their interest to have one in place even if they never need it.
Your employer is required by law to protect all it's employees and third parties affected by it's employees to provide a safe environment. (Health & Safety at Work Act 1974 and the Management of Health & Safety at Work Regulations 1999) You are also affected by the Road Traffic Act 1988 that covers any offences committed through drug use whist being in charge of a motor vehicle.

You say you are on prescribed medicines and you did not inform your employer on your application form/contract. If your company has a Occupational Health department you should have made them aware of any problems affecting your ability to carry out your duties, the omission of ticking the box could be held against you and can be used to implement a charge of Gross Misconduct. Though dismissal is a possibility it could result in a final written warning, that will stay on your file for twelve months.

They do however, particularly with prescribed medicines have to prove that you were prevented from carrying out your duties safely at the time of any alleged incidents. If you were to be dismissed you may have a case for a tribunal to decide unfair dismissal.

Here are two paragraphs from the TUC website.
_If a person were taking a prescribed medicine, including an opiate, which they required for a condition that meant they were disabled under the Disability Discrimination Act and an employer did not employ them, or dismissed them, as a result of a drug test, they may well have a strong case for action against the employer under the Act.

However where an employee is sacked as a result of a positive drugs test, the employer would still have to show that drugs had a detrimental effect on the employees ability to do the job. So if there is no evidence that there has been any drug use at work, or that performance was influenced by illegal drugs then tribunals may consider the dismissal unfair, however it will also depend on the kind of job the person does._

Here is the page in full.

Drug Testing in the Workplace

I hope this helps, though I would first and foremost advise all workers to join a relevant Trade Union.
The union is there for it's members and any unsatisfactory officials who do not provide the service one expects should raise the issue with their local organiser.


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## pengaleng (Sep 2, 2016)

the DDA doesnt exist anymore it got replaced with the equality act


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## equationgirl (Sep 2, 2016)

There's a lot of issues been raised so I'll try to untangle some of them. I am not a lawyer. 

First, you are not obliged to divulge details of your medical information to your employer, however, you may not be covered under the equality act 2010 (replaced the dda) if you do not. 

Second, since the Glasgow bin lorry tragedy in 2014 everything around driving jobs has become tighter. This may be knee jerk reaction on their part because of that, it might not. For example late last year my employer introduced a zero tolerance policy for drug use which was so badly worded I worked with the union to reword it, given that my own meds for chronic pain would (under the policy as written)  see me escorted from site immediately. 

Incidentally,  I don't drive and I take my meds at work,  but mine were declared to my employer some years ago and I have been appropriately risk-assessed by the senior first aider. Plus I'm in a union.

Given there has been a gap of three months, I would be inclined to ask why there has been a delay and why more rapid action was not taken.  I would expect you to have been given a copy of all relevant policies they are claiming you have breached (E.g. Drugs policy, driving policy)  plus the grievance policy. I would expect them to have told you what the next steps in the process are.

You should talk to your doctor. Your employer may ask for a report from them or refer you to an occupational health service. You must be asked to give consent for the use of your medical records. Consider giving a limited consent rather than a blanket one. For example,  in the past I have stated that the consent is only valid for 28 days and that only records relevant to my chronic pain issues may be disclosed.  I do this to avoid having a blanket open consent sitting on my HR file that could be used without my knowledge.  your gp should ask you if you want to review the report before it is sent to your employer.

Ask to be referred to a pain management specialist - a good one can turn your life around. Mine ensured I was not bedridden before I was 40, that I have a reasonable quality of life and can still work.

If you are asked to go to an occupational health service it is worth engaging with them. They are likely to ask what pain management strategies you use, how bad the pain is,  what day to day activities the pain gets in the way of. I have found them to be more helpful if talk about all the things you do, for example, I use pain visualisation and deep breathing techniques, reflexology,  gentle exercise,  some yoga exercises, a tens machine and hot/cold therapy, as well as pain meds. 

I hope this is helpful to you.


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## mrs quoad (Sep 4, 2016)

Most of the focus so far has been on the licit, prescribed opioids.

I guess that the IV fentanyl overdose is another issue - and the main reason that someone in A&E felt obliged to pass information to the OP's employer..?

I'm not sure what kinda vulnerable people the OP transports, but would guess that taking illicit / diverted hardcore opioids (presumably begged, borrowed, bought or extorted from a "vulnerable" person somewhere up the line) raises another set of questions about: i) the employer's duty of care to their vulnerable clients; and ii) the OP's approach to diverted opioids, and whether or not (from an employer's perspective) this might make his position untenable. Irrespective of whether or not they were diverted from the precise group of vulnerable people he transports.

No firm thoughts on this. But it seems worth putting out there, as this appears to be the original reason for someone breaching his confidentiality; and it's no doubt best for the OP to be prepared for any questions that come his way / issues arising.

Edit: more succinctly, I suspect that being complicit in the diversion and abuse of seriously hardcore opioids from vulnerable populations presents a whole other set of issues to not declaring those the OP is prescribed.


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Sep 4, 2016)

How would someone in A&E know where he works though. I suppose he could be unlucky enough to be recognised? I'd still want to know where they got the evidence from.


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## alan_ (Sep 4, 2016)

mrs quoad said:


> Most of the focus so far has been on the licit, prescribed opioids.
> 
> I guess that the IV fentanyl overdose is another issue - and the main reason that someone in A&E felt obliged to pass information to the OP's employer..?
> 
> ...


I think that you are doing a hell of a lot of speculating there and being mealy mouthed about it. Are you accusing OP of something specific (well it seems to me that you are but are couching it in a particular language to be vague of anything specific ) Is it any wonder that people in this sort of position have to be so circumspect


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## mrs quoad (Sep 4, 2016)

alan_ said:


> I think that you are doing a hell of a lot of speculating there and being mealy mouthed about it. Are you accusing OP of something specific (well it seems to me that you are but are couching it in a particular language to be vague of anything specific ) Is it any wonder that people in this sort of position have to be so circumspect


I'm not accusing him of personally extorting fentanyl out of someone vulnerable, if that's what you mean.

I'm saying that there's no way of getting hold of illicit opioids without a supply chain, though, and it's very likely that means that somewhere up the chain, someone has bought, borrowed or stolen opioids of someone who's prescribed them.

If you're utterly confident that his employer will just breeze over this, 100% fine, thumbs. I reckon it's a weighty enough issue for it to be fucking well prepared for questions to be raised about it. Because this is what triggered everything else. And the alternative, afaict, is going in entirely unprepared to handle this kind of question.

Why do you think a medic breached his confidentiality? Because that's one fuck of a big step to take. And it's the root cause of absolutely everything that followed. And its not about his licit script. 

I can't see ignoring that basic, starting fact - that a medic was concerned enough to breach his confidentiality to his employer, no doubt involving a discussion with several other medics / line managers on the way - doing the OP any favours.

Maybe you - or other people better versed in employment law than me - can. In which case, grand.


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## mrs quoad (Sep 4, 2016)

The wording of the suspension letter:

'Have been misusing drugs whilst in a role that involves driving and caring for vulnerable patients.'

Also leads me to think the fentanyl is their primary concern.

Which, again, leads me to think that - irrespective of the merits of the case, the moral rights and wrongs, blah blah blah - it is eminently worth being prepared to be questioned about the fentanyl.

Of course, as ever, I'd gladly defer to anyone who's better (or at all) versed in employment law / workplace rights.

I feel that failing to highlight this as a serious point for preparation / concern would not be doing the OP any favours, though.


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## alan_ (Sep 4, 2016)

mrs quoad said:


> I'm not accusing him of personally extorting fentanyl out of someone vulnerable, if that's what you mean.
> 
> I'm saying that there's no way of getting hold of illicit opioids without a supply chain, though, and it's very likely that means that somewhere up the chain, someone has bought, borrowed or stolen opioids of someone who's prescribed them.
> 
> ...


No, that is fair enough and thought out. I apologise if my answer to you  came across as snippy/snappy, it read back to be a little bit more curt than I had intended it to sound.


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## equationgirl (Sep 4, 2016)

mrs quoad said:


> The wording of the suspension letter:
> 
> 'Have been misusing drugs whilst in a role that involves driving and caring for vulnerable patients.'
> 
> ...


Without knowing the exact nature of evildacat 's employment,  it may be that employer suspects that he has obtained the fentanyl from someone he has access to as part of his driving job and has gone into major arse covering mode. But I stress that this conjecture on my part.

Should this actually be the case, I would not go to any meeting with the employer alone. I would ensure someone was accompanying me to at least take notes. I would want to know exactly what the employer suspected and how they had obtained that information.


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## Guineveretoo (Sep 4, 2016)

equationgirl is giving good advice. 

the main thing is to find out exactly what they are talking about, and that includes the procedures and policies they are following. 

There has been lots of speculation in this thread, but it is not at all clear what the employer is considering. 

As others have said, it is unfortunate that the OP is not in a union. In the absence of that, find someone to attend any meetings with you.  The law only allows for it to be a workplace colleague or union rep, but it would reflect badly on them if they refused to let you have a friend or family member with you at the meetings, and then they dismissed you.


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## equationgirl (Sep 5, 2016)

Thanks Guineveretoo and nice to see you back in the employment forum


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## ViolentPanda (Sep 5, 2016)

evildacat said:


> Is one of the vital issues on them to prove I was using drugs while at work which I wasn't?
> They obviously have me on not informing them on the prescribed drugs I take - but I intend to go to my GP who know the little effect they have on me, do you think this will help my case any?



Frankly, it depends whether they have other reasons for wanting to shitcan you. 
Sadly, as you're listed as ODing on an illicit drug (regardless of whether it was fentanyl or diamorphine), they can use the old "bringing the company into disrepute" line as an example of gross misconduct, and fire you. It all depends on the HR person.

Get a letter from your GP saying that you only take your prescription medications PRN (as needed) outside of working hours, and cop to the fentanyl - i.e. something along the lines of "I used it a single time, because the pain was overwhelming, and someone offered it to me". If you're clean of it, and anything else except your prescription meds, offer a blood and/or hair sample, to show you're not a habitual loser.

That said, if they want to bin you, they will. Sadly, employers have all the power.


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## evildacat (Sep 6, 2016)

Thank you all for your advice and posts I have been reading I just needed to step back for a few days. I am back and having filled in the OH request for medical records which I will be seeing first I am now working on some representation to come with me for the suspected hearing which could be further then 3 weeks away or as close as a week no idea yet.


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## evildacat (Sep 6, 2016)

equationgirl said:


> Without knowing the exact nature of evildacat 's employment,  it may be that employer suspects that he has obtained the fentanyl from someone he has access to as part of his driving job and has gone into major arse covering mode. But I stress that this conjecture on my part.
> 
> Should this actually be the case, I would not go to any meeting with the employer alone. I would ensure someone was accompanying me to at least take notes. I would want to know exactly what the employer suspected and how they had obtained that information.



With regards to the possibility I could obtain said drug from someone I have access to I do work in a 2 person crew, and am very confident the people I do work with will not say anything to harm me, obviously not that it matters but I have not nor would ever do that. I have kept this separate from my job in my private life and being recognised and reported from someone at the hospital is how my records were put forward, none of this happened in work time.

I also have and AnE release form which is vastly different to the statement that has been given over to my employer, this AnE form also has several mistakes in it and for starters list me as the wrong sex through out the report among a few other things and contradicts the report handed over to my employer on many points.


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## evildacat (Sep 6, 2016)

I have contacted CAB for further help with representation, I am assuming it is vastly to late to contact and join the union at my work?


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## evildacat (Sep 6, 2016)

Is there a certain 'path' that the initial interview to notify me should have taken also? I.E should they have laid the claims out before instead of asking me questions in the fishing expedition way they did?
Given the information handed over to my work I was unaware of even with the discharge letter from AnE and the details I gave them, how can they have a different set of information then what was in my discharge letter?

Apologise to anyone who read my first attempt at this paragraph.


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## kebabking (Sep 6, 2016)

evildacat 

hi, i've not got any specific advice for you, its not my field, but something i've noted you write about consistantly is how you don't use prescriptrion/non-prescription drugs while at work and that therefore you don't see what this has to do with your job - i'm afraid i think you're barking up the wrong tree: while obviously an employer will be interested in whether you used them while at work, they will be just as interested in whether you were/are under their influence while at work, regardless of when you ingested them.

if you wish to use the 'its none of your business because it doesn't effect you' card, you will probably have to be able to prove that the effects of the different types of drug were either out of your system, or at 'safe' levels while you were at work - so you'll need written help from your GP to explain how long X quality of Y drug lasts and what effects it has.

good luck.


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## evildacat (Sep 6, 2016)

Yeah I know its not going to play really, but I have spent most my life keeping many parts separate from one another and highly value my privacy. This is to such a degree that I would rather go in alone if I am unable to obtain independent and unrelated representation for myself.


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## mrs quoad (Sep 6, 2016)

evildacat said:


> I have contacted CAB for further help with representation, I am assuming it is vastly to late to contact and join the union at my work?


Most unions, IME / imu, only provide substantive material support to people who've been with them for some time (six months? A year?) 

In no small part to avoid being signed up to as a convenience by everyone who's in a workplace crisis, and wants some last minute free support. 

(I'd been a member of Unison for 3-4 months when I sought support for a serious and ongoing bullying problem in my workplace. And whilst they were very helpful in a chat over the phone, there was no way I could've accessed the level of legal support / resourcing I could've accessed if I'd been a member for either 6 months or a year.)


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## Guineveretoo (Sep 6, 2016)

As a minimum, a union would probably refuse to support you with a pre-existing problem. Frankly, they would go bankrupt if they allowed people to access all their resources in this way. 

You might be able to get some informal support or advice, but that's likely to be from a local rep rather than someone with a legal background or knowledge.


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## evildacat (Sep 6, 2016)

I assumed so, wasn't expecting anything.


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## equationgirl (Sep 6, 2016)

evildacat given the nature of the allegations being made I strongly recommend that you do not attend any meetings alone. Take someone with you.

I appreciate your need for privacy but your work may be affected by the meds you take due to how long it takes for the meds to completely clear your system. You might find it helpful to look at the patient information leaflet for each medicine and highlight any that say you should avoid driving whilst taking them or should not drive on them. A lof of leaflets have been updated over the last year or so, since the Glasgow bin lorry crash.

Also, go through the a&e letter and write a list of the mistakes on one side of a bit of paper, with what it should have said next to it, for example 'gender listed as female on discharge letter' 'gender should have been shown as male'. 

This will help you order your arguments.


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## evildacat (Sep 6, 2016)

equationgirl said:


> evildacat given the nature of the allegations being made I strongly recommend that you do not attend any meetings alone. Take someone with you.
> 
> I appreciate your need for privacy but your work may be affected by the meds you take due to how long it takes for the meds to completely clear your system. You might find it helpful to look at the patient information leaflet for each medicine and highlight any that say you should avoid driving whilst taking them or should not drive on them. A lof of leaflets have been updated over the last year or so, since the Glasgow bin lorry crash.
> 
> ...



I have started going through the list of meds and the half lives of them and further research. I also intended to go through the discharge letter stating the errors on it also. I also intend to see the GP/'s who told me when I asked about taking meds given my job I was told to 'see how they effect me before using them at work' which I did and I am hoping to get a letter from GP's that this is the advice they gave me - whether they are willing to admit this is what advice they gave me in writing is going to be another matter I believe.


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## evildacat (Sep 7, 2016)

Given that I expect work not to believe anything I say and how irregular I took my meds ie not at work would it be a good idea to bring in the excess of meds I have that are all scripted in my name as physical evidence I am a/ not addicted to any of these substances, b/ it backs up what I have been saying about not taking meds at work and c/ its not just my word?


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## evildacat (Sep 7, 2016)

Also I have been to the GP's several times about the lack of sleep I get and asked for something to help which every time I was either refused and not passed on or the pain meds I was on were changed to supposedly help with the still chronic pain and also the sleep issue which none of these medications have ever helped with. I have talked to the GP about this and would you consider it further evidence if I can again get the GP to confirm in writing that these events took place further evidence of my control on these medications given that they are supposed to make you sleepy?


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## equationgirl (Sep 7, 2016)

evildacat said:


> Given that I expect work not to believe anything I say and how irregular I took my meds ie not at work would it be a good idea to bring in the excess of meds I have that are all scripted in my name as physical evidence I am a/ not addicted to any of these substances, b/ it backs up what I have been saying about not taking meds at work and c/ its not just my word?


God no, they'll think you're hoarding them. Are you still getting all your repeat prescriptions?

I'd do that with your gp although beware they will likely reduce your prescription amounts to pretty much nothing if you do.


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## equationgirl (Sep 7, 2016)

I think the only thing your work will believe are hair and Blood tests. You can try getting your doctor to document your visits.


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## Sprocket. (Sep 7, 2016)

pengaleng said:


> the DDA doesnt exist anymore it got replaced with the equality act



Sorry I'm fully aware of this as I myself am covered by it and should have spotted it on the alleged up to date policy.
Just a name change in reality and doesn't really work in reality as I have witnessed.


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## Plumdaff (Sep 7, 2016)

Just an aside, I don't know if you work for the statutory or non statutory part of the 'care' industry but if you are a nurse, are managed by a nurse and/or generally work within a nursing culture you may find that the whole personal time rationale won't wash, because the NMC Code of Practice covers what nurses all the time and nurses are regularly struck off for things they do outside work. I'm fairly sure doctors and other health professionals are similarly monitored. 

This may seem hugely unfair especially if you are not in a registered profession but it may be a heads up and an explanation of certain attitudes that are taken, both by your management and the rationale for some in an A&E department making decisions about reporting someone working in care.


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## evildacat (Sep 7, 2016)

equationgirl said:


> I think the only thing your work will believe are hair and Blood tests. You can try getting your doctor to document your visits.


Can I find out which test/s they will want before hand? I assume refusal for one is same as refusal for all?


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## evildacat (Sep 7, 2016)

How do I go about applying for other jobs with regards to references from the previous one also?


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## equationgirl (Sep 8, 2016)

evildacat said:


> Can I find out which test/s they will want before hand? I assume refusal for one is same as refusal for all?


If your company has a drug use/misuse policy then the types of test commonly requested should be in there.


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## equationgirl (Sep 8, 2016)

evildacat said:


> How do I go about applying for other jobs with regards to references from the previous one also?


Most prospective employers will look for a reference from the current employer, especially if you have been there some time.


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## evildacat (Sep 8, 2016)

equationgirl said:


> Most prospective employers will look for a reference from the current employer, especially if you have been there some time.


So given that I will most likely be fired, how do I now go about making myself look as good as possible to perspective employers without making things worse for myself?


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## mrs quoad (Sep 8, 2016)

evildacat said:


> So given that I will most likely be fired, how do I now go about making myself look as good as possible to perspective employers without making things worse for myself?


The traditional pathway for police is resigning before a disciplinary takes place. 

I'm not advocating that, as I don't know what impact that'd have in a normal workplace!

I also guess you're contractually obliged to work a notice period, and that's (probably?) longer than the time til your disciplinary.


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## existentialist (Sep 8, 2016)

Plumdaff said:


> Just an aside, I don't know if you work for the statutory or non statutory part of the 'care' industry but if you are a nurse, are managed by a nurse and/or generally work within a nursing culture you may find that the whole personal time rationale won't wash, because the NMC Code of Practice covers what nurses all the time and nurses are regularly struck off for things they do outside work. I'm fairly sure doctors and other health professionals are similarly monitored.
> 
> This may seem hugely unfair especially if you are not in a registered profession but it may be a heads up and an explanation of certain attitudes that are taken, both by your management and the rationale for some in an A&E department making decisions about reporting someone working in care.


It's true for my profession, too, although possibly to a lesser degree than for medical staff. I suspect, though, that if something like this came up for me, I'd be in the frame to be sanctioned at the very least.


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## equationgirl (Sep 8, 2016)

evildacat said:


> So given that I will most likely be fired, how do I now go about making myself look as good as possible to perspective employers without making things worse for myself?


You could try to strike a deal where you will leave without fuss and they will give you a good reference. 

Don't assume you will be fired. Did you get the policies and have you gone through them carefully to make sure process is being followed exactly?


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## Plumdaff (Sep 8, 2016)

evildacat said:


> So given that I will most likely be fired, how do I now go about making myself look as good as possible to perspective employers without making things worse for myself?



It's also worth pointing out that I have seen colleagues supported through all manner of drug and alcohol problems but I've seen people let go over dishonesty so my advice would be a/get advice and b/be honest if you have anything they can support you with.


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## mrs quoad (Sep 8, 2016)

Plumdaff said:


> It's also worth pointing out that I have seen colleagues supported through all manner of drug and alcohol problems but I've seen people let go over dishonesty so my advice would be a/get advice and b/be honest if you have anything they can support you with.


I wondered about this, but it strikes me as a high risk strategy. IMO, the op wouldn't find it hard to be assessed as someone with an opioid / drug problem.

But that begs a whole separate set of questions - if that's his chosen way forward, then it'd make bloody good sense to be aware of the legal implications. IMO!

Could require a willingness to engage with drug treatment services, to look for alternatives to opioids (and abandon opioids substantially / altogether), and engagement with a range of alternative pain management services.

And drug dependence certainly isn't a protected characteristic, so there's no additional legal protection there...

I think this'd be throwing yourself on your employer's mercy - but, as ever, other people would be better informed than me.


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## evildacat (Oct 18, 2016)

This still is going on and haven't even been given a hearing date as yet.


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## existentialist (Oct 18, 2016)

evildacat said:


> This still is going on and haven't even been given a hearing date as yet.


Well, if you're intending to fight it, make sure you've got all this delay and lack of communication documented.


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## evildacat (Oct 18, 2016)

existentialist said:


> Well, if you're intending to fight it, make sure you've got all this delay and lack of communication documented.


Ow it is , I have made sure everything they have asked of me has been done right away. Between works management, OH and my gp they seem to arguing between themselves.

Work still have a report that is not part of my medical file that I haven't seen and I have everything in my medical record for that time period.


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## farmerbarleymow (Oct 18, 2016)

evildacat said:


> Ow it is , I have made sure everything they have asked of me has been done right away. Between works management, OH and my gp they seem to arguing between themselves.
> 
> Work still have a report that is not part of my medical file that I haven't seen and I have everything in my medical record for that time period.


Have you asked your employer for a copy of this report you haven't seen? Any disciplinary process has to be fair, so they can't rely on evidence only known to themselves.

You could also write to the hospital trust to ask for a copy of information disclosed to your employer (and challenge the inaccuracies in the discharge letter you have at the same time).


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## evildacat (Oct 18, 2016)

farmerbarleymow said:


> Have you asked your employer for a copy of this report you haven't seen? Any disciplinary process has to be fair, so they can't rely on evidence only known to themselves.
> 
> You could also write to the hospital trust to ask for a copy of information disclosed to your employer (and challenge the inaccuracies in the discharge letter you have at the same time).


I have been ignored from my management they haven't returned my calls. OH have told me I need to obtain it through my gp and there is a letter in my medical file when I originally tried to correct the errors that says it cannot be changed unless medication is incorrect.


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## farmerbarleymow (Oct 18, 2016)

evildacat said:


> I have been ignored from my management they haven't returned my calls. OH have told me I need to obtain it through my gp and there is a letter in my medical file when I originally tried to correct the errors that says it cannot be changed unless medication is incorrect.


Sounds like there are a few data protection issues with that lot.

For the report your management have that you've not seen - you have a right to ask for your personal data under section 7 of the DPA. The Information Commissioner's site has advice on how to submit a request. 

Find out how to request your personal information

In the first instance you could write (by tracked mail) to them explicitly requesting a copy, and advising that if they're unable to provide it at this stage then they should treat your letter as a Subject Access Request. You can specify whatever personal data you want to see - from your entire HR record, through to e-mails about you held in your management chain's e-mail accounts.  

There is a risk with this - they might move any hearing forward so it happens before they have to respond to your request. 

Your employer can charge a maximum of £10 for a SAR, but the charges can be higher if you ask for medical records from the hospital. 

For medical records errors - I'm not sure what process the NHS has for this, or if it varies across the country. But the DPA requires personal data to be accurate and kept up to date. So if there are basic errors like gender, etc., then they should either correct it or add a note to record that it's incorrect. The latter might be the only practical way if your talking about a discharge letter sent to your GP and scanned onto their database.

However, you could also complain to the hospital for being so sloppy in the first place.  NHS Trusts are appallingly bad at dealing with complaints, so be prepared for a long wait, mind.


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## evildacat (Oct 29, 2016)

After over 8 weeks they cancelled the suspension and put me back in my normal role, tbh I was pretty surprised by this outcome as I have no warnings on my work file either.
I'm pretty sure that one of the managers messed up big time for asking for some of medical documents which he wasn't allowed to see given their private nature, and also I don't think the piece of paper I had to sign to inform them of medication I took if any was in date as I couldn't remember the last time I filled one in. Everything else was unprovable except the fact that I had not informed them of the medication I was taking even not while at work and that is gross misconduct - this i assume they would use to get rid of me given the serious nature of the allegations so when they realised that they did not have that piece of signed paper in date saying what medication I took it as they were not able to legally fire me with anything.

Never had a hearing on the charges they brought against me which they had all the requested documents and within a day of receiving the OH nurse final report just called me up and said it has been cancelled.

Thank you to every one who has helped me with info and pointers they were greatly appreciated, and tbh you guys were by far the biggest help and all these other so called unbiased and independent help sites for such situation do not take sides which means the only info I received off them was to write a defence, pretty much every question I asked I got 'we cannot answer that as we are non biased and it wouldn't be fair to the employer'.


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Oct 30, 2016)

Nice one...but maybe be careful with fent in future eh?


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## existentialist (Oct 30, 2016)

UnderAnOpenSky said:


> Nice one...but maybe be careful with fent in future eh?


And they may be smarting a bit from their cock-up, and might be looking for a chance to vindicate themselves, so you'd be wise to be gooder than a Very Good Thing for a while to come.


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## equationgirl (Oct 30, 2016)

Also be aware of any random drug test policy they may have or bring in. If they are looking for an easy way to get rid then a positive drug test may give them cause.

Glad it worked out


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## equationgirl (Oct 30, 2016)

And join a union!


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## evildacat (Oct 30, 2016)

equationgirl said:


> And join a union!



Judging from what people said in this thread given my injury pre dates my recent job it wouldn't have helped either.


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## evildacat (Oct 31, 2016)

existentialist said:


> And they may be smarting a bit from their cock-up, and might be looking for a chance to vindicate themselves, so you'd be wise to be gooder than a Very Good Thing for a while to come.


They have bending over backwards to accommodate my hospital/doctors appointments so I do not get the impression they have any ill feeling towards me and so far are showing as much support as there policy says they should, I cheekily asked for time off the first fee days I was supposed to be back for a hospital appointment in the past I would have been told to bollocks. Also I got holiday booked with less then 3 weeks notice for a holiday request for a family event.
I also received a summary of the interview which states I am a 'low' risk in all area's the only thing I have to do is have a monthly meeting so they can keep progress on the injury I have.


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## evildacat (Oct 31, 2016)

They even knew with all the medical info that an operation is most likely which would leave me incapacitated for doing my current role for 6 months plus, which was another reason I assumed they would use the gross misconduct charge to get rid of myself.


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## existentialist (Oct 31, 2016)

evildacat said:


> They have bending over backwards to accommodate my hospital/doctors appointments so I do not get the impression they have any ill feeling towards me and so far are showing as much support as there policy says they should, I cheekily asked for time off the first fee days I was supposed to be back for a hospital appointment in the past I would have been told to bollocks. Also I got holiday booked with less then 3 weeks notice for a holiday request for a family event.
> I also received a summary of the interview which states I am a 'low' risk in all area's the only thing I have to do is have a monthly meeting so they can keep progress on the injury I have.


Excellent. When I first read this thread, I really didn't think there was going to be a nice way out of it. Sounds like you found one!


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## evildacat (Oct 31, 2016)

existentialist said:


> Excellent. When I first read this thread, I really didn't think there was going to be a nice way out of it. Sounds like you found one!



No I was very sure I was gone also which is why I assume they messed up somewhere along the lines to suddenly end the suspension with that length of time passing on full pay to suddenly cannel it.


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## redsquirrel (Oct 31, 2016)

evildacat said:


> Judging from what people said in this thread given my injury pre dates my recent job it wouldn't have helped either.


Even if that is the case you should join anyway


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## equationgirl (Nov 1, 2016)

evildacat said:


> Judging from what people said in this thread given my injury pre dates my recent job it wouldn't have helped either.


Unions can't help you if you're not a member. They can help you if you join, regardless of when your injury occurred. My medical stuff has existed since way before my current job, but I've had representation from them on an issue related to it.


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## evildacat (Nov 1, 2016)

equationgirl said:


> Unions can't help you if you're not a member. They can help you if you join, regardless of when your injury occurred. My medical stuff has existed since way before my current job, but I've had representation from them on an issue related to it.


From other replies on this thread people seemed to think that as it pre dated the work peiod of this job they would most likely to go whistle


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## Plumdaff (Nov 1, 2016)

If you join now, they'll support you if anything comes up in future, even stuff related to this.


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## redsquirrel (Nov 1, 2016)

evildacat said:


> From other replies on this thread people seemed to think that as it pre dated the work peiod of this job they would most likely to go whistle


I cnn't see why an _injury_ you obtained before working in this position would mean that the union would not represent you. Not only does that not make any sense, but it's almost certainly discriminatory.

If someone joins a union with an existing employment issue, the union might choose not to represent you regarding that issue, i.e. if you joined after a misconduct complaint had been started against you then the union might not provide support for that particular misconduct complaint, but it should support you if another misconduct complaint was brought against you after the date you had joined.

But you should join the union regardless. By strengthening the union you're helping to ensure that what happened to you is less likely to happen to others.


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## redsquirrel (Nov 1, 2016)

evildacat said:


> From other replies on this thread people seemed to think that as it pre dated the work peiod of this job they would most likely to go whistle


Re-reading the thread I think you're misinterpreting this post


Guineveretoo said:


> As a minimum, a union would probably refuse to support you with a pre-existing problem.


unless I am very very much mistaken Guineveretoo is referring to an _employment_ problem not a _medical _problem.


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## Guineveretoo (Nov 1, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> Re-reading the thread I think you're misinterpreting this post
> unless I am very very much mistaken Guineveretoo is referring to an _employment_ problem not a _medical _problem.


Yes, I'm referring to employment problems. That's what trade unions do, and that's what the thread is about.


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## Guineveretoo (Nov 1, 2016)

Double post. But I've just realised why this was quoted. 

A trade union will, of course, support you with work problems arising from an injury or disability which pre-dates your employment. They are not, however, able to support someone who runs into to work difficulties of any kind, including discrimination, and then joins the union.


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## evildacat (Nov 2, 2016)

Ah right my bad thought it meant with a pre existing injury, and with me not having informed them correctly


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## zippyRN (Nov 2, 2016)

evildacat said:


> From other replies on this thread people seemed to think that as it pre dated the work peiod of this job they would most likely to go whistle



 no they didn;t what they  were saying is the  going  to the union  as a new member after an issue has 'broken cover'  will result in short shrift ...  if you are lucky a workplace based rep might come with you to meetings  but don;t expect the full  effort of branch, region, national etc etc ... 

where as if you are a member before the issue breaks cover ...


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