# Griffin and BNP strategy



## durruti02 (May 9, 2007)

Article by Griffin is up on their website. I think it is important reading not only as they just polled 300k votes in local elections but it clearly states their strategy .. worrying reading, not just as this startegy is working but that the left seem incapable of understanding how and why it is .... obviously not going to link but not hard to find full article .. heres  alot of it .. sorry for cut and paste .. 

p.s. this is the same strategy as hamas, as the Liberal Focus, as SP, as SF, as iwca .. it works .. it may in the bnps and many cases be cynical .. but it is working
 

"Election 2007 – BNP leader Nick Griffin assesses the big picture and sets out where we must go from here.

( first para was lots of nonsense based on something Wellington said! )

Moving up a level

So here’s the bottom line: Several years ago our improvements in our own electoral machine caught our opponents off guard and gave us the string of victories that made us the story of successive elections. But the shock and humiliation of losing to the BNP forced the other parties to up their game. So from shock firsts we’ve been forced down to good but shell-shocked seconds. And that is where, by and large, we will stay unless we learn the lessons of May 2007 and take our game up a level as well.

Labour and the LibDems have learnt to concentrate on mobilising their own core vote (the elderly, ethnic minorities and the local functionaries of Brown’s welfarist empire), while their leftist allies combine expensive smear sheets and phone calls targeted at especially at postal voters to depress our vote. This is why, from key seats up and down the country we got reports of sitting Labour councillors trudging round the streets putting out their election addresses by themselves. Their activists weren’t sitting on their hands, they were manning telephone banks to identify pro- and anti-BNP voters and work on them accordingly.

In our best areas our people easily ‘won’ the traditional battle of the leaflets, often dropping three or four to every house in a ward for the single one put out by Labour. And our leaflets were good, clearly winning the political argument every time.

But that’s the problem. We’re assuming that the public are as interested in political issues as we are; that they can be won over or mobilised by political concerns about the long-term big picture.

Some can, which is why our vote (more than 300,000 in total in the English District and Borough contests, an average of 14.7% of the electorate) is so substantial and held up well even though we were fighting so many more seats in so many frankly weaker areas. But the majority are left cold by party politics, which is why nearly two-thirds of the electorate didn’t vote for anybody.

Our politicised hardcore may well grow with external events, but even so we’ll be very lucky under remotely ‘normal’ circumstances if our core vote comes to exceed that of Labour and the LibDems and the minorities combined – and, make no mistake, that is what we’re up against.

And since trusting to luck is never a good policy, we are not going to. Over the last few days I have been in frequent and lengthy discussions with a number of our key election experts and organisers. Together we have analysed these elections, worked out how we have been pegged back and why in some places we bucked that trend and won, and begun to design an even better election-winning machine for the future.

More will appear on this subject in the new editions of Identity and Freedom, and much more will be rolled out at training seminars around the country and at the Summer School.

Grass roots upwards

For now it is enough to point to the fact that all our wins - bar one or two where the effort of keeping us out of Ward A simply left Labour unable to stop us in Ward B – came in places where our candidates and a handful of local helpers have been particularly effective at getting involved in real grass-roots community politics, and in using local newsletters to tell everyone in the ward that we are a ‘Good Thing’ for them and their area. 

*It is now crystal clear from these experimental operations that seeing our people do good and practical things for their community not only reinforces the willingness of our politicised supporters to go out and vote BNP, and undermines the effectiveness of the anti-BNP smear sheets, but also mobilises on our behalf an additional section of the essentially non-political population.*
This, then, is where we have to go from here – rolling out the experience from these successful experiments to become the norm for every BNP branch, group and even lone activists.

Perhaps we should not have had to wait until such hard pounding forced us to take a long hard look at the shifting balance of power in the conventional political arms race between us and our opponents over the last year or so. After all, there is nothing new in defeated opponents learning new tactics to turn things around. Neither is there anything new in viewing the role of the organised nationalist movement as a sort of school that moulds first individuals, then groups, then entire communities, remaking them and turning passive, selfish consumers and observers into active citizens building a better future.

But being aware of this point in theory, and setting out to turn it into practice are two different matters. For the last few years we have been fortunate enough to be able to win seats while directly indulging our passion for politics and political argument. Until Brown’s ‘economic miracle’ heads South and other ‘events’ change the political landscape, those days are gone.

Electoral progress can and will be made over the next couple of years, but only by those who model what they do on our winners this time around, and not on what we did to win over the previous few years.

The first step will be raising the profile of, and the value placed upon, community politics work. We are already working on ways to do this, and they will be rolled out in the months ahead. Just to give one example, Martin Wingfield and I have already agreed that, from now on, Freedom will not be carrying reports of internal meetings, except occasionally in new areas or if there is something particularly unusual such as a huge collection for an especially useful cause. 

From now on, if you want to see your branch or group’s name in lights and photographs in Freedom or on the regional news pages of the website you will have to press your Organiser to arrange a community clean-up or celebration, or one of a hundred other ostensibly non-political things that can be done to improve the lives of local people and the standing of our future candidate in one of our target wards. If you want to be in our headlines, if you want me to spend a day in your area, then you’d better plan to get me in overalls and high-viz jacket. We’re going to roll up our sleeves and get covered in mud!

The conventional politics won’t go away, of course, indeed it is our aim to step up the internal education process which turns protest vote new recruits (and there are plenty of those to be signed up over the next month or so, provided they are contacted and visited promptly) into fully-fledged and well informed nationalists. It is only what we are going to be doing with those new activists and older ones alike that is going to change: 

Less about politics, more about people – for it is by serving the people that we will secure enough extra votes to keep our bandwagon rolling towards the power we need to have a serious impact on politics and the future.


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## mk12 (May 9, 2007)

I remember reading a quote from Griffin somewhere (said about 10, 15 years ago?) saying that the w/c have been abandoned by Labour, and the BNP need to fill that left wing gap. Does this ring any bells durutti?


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## durruti02 (May 9, 2007)

mk12 said:
			
		

> I remember reading a quote from Griffin somewhere (said about 10, 15 years ago?) saying that the w/c have been abandoned by Labour, and the BNP need to fill that left wing gap. Does this ring any bells durutti?



yes absolutely mate .. there is just a continuation of that .. and look how they have done in those years! 

 i get the impression though that much of the left still do not realise this!! 


p.s.s do you know of a link to the afa doc that lead to the IWCA ( something about " ........ vacuum'' ???  .. i can't find a live link


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## audiotech (May 9, 2007)

Respect beat the BNP in 11 out of 16 wards, and Ukip in 5 out of 7.


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## mk12 (May 9, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> yes absolutely mate .. there is just a continuation of that .. and look how they have done in those years!
> 
> i get the impression though that much of the left still do not realise this!!
> 
> ...



yea i thought i read that on an iwca/red action site. ill have a look.


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## Groucho (May 9, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> Respect beat the BNP in 11 out of 16 wards, and Ukip in 5 out of 7.



durutti02 has finally convinced me...

Respect are shite and nothing compared to the undefeatable rising BNP under the great strategic leadership of Nick Griffin who incidentally is absolutely right about the need to curb immigration and end multi-culturalism. I just can't see why the left can't see that Griffin is right. You can't beat the fascists unless you understand just how right they are on all the key issues, and just how prefect their strategy is. Until the left understand this they are doooomed1!!111!!!!!!!!   

Just a bit confused as to why the BNP themselves (ignoring their website) are so downheartened by it all (except perhaps in Wales). If only they would listen to duriti too and they'd realise they were unstoppable!  

I'm off to post fifty anti-immigration threads now


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## mk12 (May 9, 2007)

christ groucho, i expect better from you


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## durruti02 (May 9, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> Respect beat the BNP in 11 out of 16 wards, and Ukip in 5 out of 7.



respect got some very good results .. particularly in Preston but overall respect got how many seats and votes as against the bnp??? 

have you actually checked out the seats where respect beat the bnp???? many in brum like sparkbrook! i doubt the bnp even put out a leaflet tbh .. 

respect did not even try to stand against bnp in any 'bnp areas' .. now that would have been interesting


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## durruti02 (May 9, 2007)

Groucho said:
			
		

> durutti02 has finally convinced me...
> 
> Respect are shite and nothing compared to the undefeatable rising BNP under the great strategic leadership of Nick Griffin who incidentally is absolutely right about the need to curb immigration and end multi-culturalism. I just can't see why the left can't see that Griffin is right. You can't beat the fascists unless you understand just how right they are on all the key issues, and just how prefect their strategy is. Until the left understand this they are doooomed1!!111!!!!!!!!
> 
> ...



muppet   .. i want to help create / be a part of a strategy that destroys fascism .. your strategy  is just boosting it ..


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## Groucho (May 9, 2007)

mk12 said:
			
		

> christ groucho, i expect better from you



I've just got no time for pseudo anarchists who spend all their time bigging up the BNP* on the one hand and relentlessly campaigning against immigrants on the other

*and no I don't underestimate the threat either


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## Kid_Eternity (May 9, 2007)

Groucho said:
			
		

> I've just got no time for pseudo anarchists who spend all their time bigging up the BNP* on the one hand and relentlessly campaigning against immigrants on the other
> 
> *and no I don't underestimate the threat either



Which anarchists campaign against immigrants?


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## The Pious Pawn (May 9, 2007)

they are getting votes because they are feeding on peoples fears , There is a open door policy on immigration in this country until that is sorted they will keep using it as one of there tools to get more and more votes .


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## Groucho (May 9, 2007)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> Which anarchists campaign against immigrants?



durruti02, although named after an Anarchist he actually claims to be IWCA doesn't he? who are not Anarchists - he will claim his anti-immigration stance is not anti-immigrant.


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## Soul On Ice (May 9, 2007)

durruti02 makes a good point. The strategy that Griffin suggests is exactly what the Lib Dems have been doing for the past few years in their target wards, often if wards where lazy local (usually, but not always) Labour councillors have got complacent.

And indeed it is the strategy that all the effective councillors from political parties use to secure a good vote. In many respects there is nothing wrong with the strategy - being seen to be active in grassroots community activities (such as community clear ups, fixing broken street lights, campaigning for kids' playgrounds etc) that might not be sexy in terms of grand political ideology is no bad thing. These are things that matter to communities and why shouldn't those people who work hard for their communities seek to stand as a councillor?

The only problem is when parties like the BNP do it as a cover for their nasty bigoted views. All it says to me is that if the BNP are going to be stopped opposition parties need to engage in grassroots campaigns too.


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## Fez909 (May 10, 2007)

I'm a bit unsure as to why this article has been seen as a good thing, durrati?

Firstly, it's all about the BNP's losses since last time. Griffin blames an increase in tactics by those opposed to the BNP rather than the pathetic councilors they had elected last time. He says that to gain more votes next time, they should emulate the work done by those who have beaten them this time. I don't think this is such a great strategy for changing people's lives for the better. It's core message is, "we'll give you what you have now, but with nationalism." Which means, what, no darkies? Hardly earth-shattering stuff from the Fat Fascist.

All the way through the article he talks of getting covered in mud, and community 'celebrations' as if this is some big deal. It's the superficial politics of New Labour but with added nastiness. The tone of the article is power, power, power. Nothing about _really_ improving people's lives in the long term. Just a vague hint at what would happen should they ever get in a position of power - creating "fully-fledged and well informed nationalists."

Hardly a strategy I'd be looking towards for help.


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## The Black Hand (May 10, 2007)

Fez909 said:
			
		

> Firstly, it's all about the BNP's losses since last time. Griffin blames an increase in tactics by those opposed to the BNP rather than the pathetic councilors they had elected last time. He says that to gain more votes next time, they should emulate the work done by those who have beaten them this time. I don't think this is such a great strategy for changing people's lives for the better. It's core message is, "we'll give you what you have now, but with nationalism." Which means, what, no darkies? Hardly earth-shattering stuff from the Fat Fascist.
> 
> All the way through the article he talks of getting covered in mud, and community 'celebrations' as if this is some big deal. It's the superficial politics of New Labour but with added nastiness. The tone of the article is power, power, power. Nothing about _really_ improving people's lives in the long term. Just a vague hint at what would happen should they ever get in a position of power - creating "fully-fledged and well informed nationalists."



I think this is good analysis of Griffins article, not perfect certainly, but a more informed dissection than I have made publically available so far. I think anti fascists seem to have been 'doffing their cap' at Griffin-'ism' a bit too much. He hasn't got any original insights, he's not that great a thinker (that article was based upon concversations with several senior party members), he doesn't write brilliant articles, he's what I would call a 'good enough-ist', its just 'good enough' to improve the BNPs chances...

I think _the problem actually stems from historical inadequacies within the anarcho and Marxist opposition_. Unfortunately, the New Left (1950s and 1960s) didn't put down enough long term and innovative roots to reproduce itself and dynamic thought/groups. Instead, the Leninists dominated the parties and Marxism in the UK, in the Universities, Charities, etc. and that led to conservative thought patterns, politics and organisations. _It is from this position of historical weakness that we are now trying to emerge._ And why our movement appears disperate, sectarian, individualistic, unfocussed, and without serious strategic thought. It is a shame that others on these boards cannot see this and try to lift discussions beyond the inadequate political form of bulletin boards like these... I try to at least and will continue to try...

The anarchists Marxist and autonomist opposition now need to get thinking about oppositional forms 5, 10 and 20 years from now, and how best we can go about trying to build such movements...


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## Larry O'Hara (May 10, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> I think anti fascists seem to have been 'doffing their cap' at Griffin-'ism' a bit too much. He hasn't got any original insights, he's not that great a thinker (that article was based upon concversations with several senior party members), he doesn't write brilliant articles, he's what I would call a 'good enough-ist', its just 'good enough' to improve the BNPs chances.....



Not only should you know better, having (I presume) read a couple of my articles on the Griffin BNP, let's consider one basic fact: at 50 councillors, the GRiffin BNP has more than every previous fascist group (including the Tyndall BNP) put together, by a factor of at least 5.  Don't you think Left groups would kill (metaphorically) to get circa 14% of the vote in elections?

The problem here, I fear, is you have an a priori dismissive analysis of Griffin's strategy, not based on historical empirical or strategic evidence, and applaud posters who concur with your premises.  Were the matter not so serious, it would be amusing.


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## The Black Hand (May 10, 2007)

Well Larry we disagree don't we. I am not impressed at all with 50 seats out of 20K and  what percentage of the vote that is, is questionable to say the least. If we include all of the UK it drops dramatically from your figure. You and others have an apriori position of 'Griffin' worship, although I am prepared to admit in your particular case Larry I could be wrong and I would be prepared to read relevant chapters of your PhD where you prove this to be wrong. However, I do think RA work from very flimsy evidence and their reflection theory of what anti fascism should look like (reflecting what the BNP are doing) is simplistic to say the least.

We also disagree about what counts for empirical evidence in this case and strategic evidence. You are an anti fascist specialist, I am somewhat but still a minnow when compared to somebody with a PhD in it. BUT I do have plenty of empirical evidence and strategic evidence from arena's not confined to the anti fascist ghetto, and progress will be made by people with anti fascist NOT STAMPED on their forehead like you, RA, or antifa.org (although you have plenty of very interesting things to say).

Were the matter not so serious it would be amusing that anti fascism in this country is in a pathetic state, like the left/a as a whole. I for one try to break it (anti fascism) and politics as a whole out of its 'ghettoised' (sectarian, closed, reductionist) forms. I am sure history will applaud these efforts.

PS - If you look at what I wrote I said he was a 'good enough ist', which means that I give him a degree of competance. BUT I know he is not that clever from what and how he writes. The growth of the BNP is based in the space on the right that has opened up, due to the decline of the big parties, an imperialist media and the debris of the British empire. Given these wider conditions which worked in the BNPs favour, and the fact that the fascists have been particularly thick in Britain in the past meant they too operated from a position of historical weakness. Griffin has played catch up to where the fascists should have been in the 1970s and 80's. At the minute anti fascists seem to be running scared, like the elephant from the fat mouse which is Griffin. We (anti fascists as a whole) need to calm down; take stock, treat each other with more respect, network, meet, conference, operate beyond traditional group, tactical, and strategic boundaries, set new agendas, work openly etc... In short, go beyond the shite politics of the past.


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## nino_savatte (May 10, 2007)

Soul On Ice said:
			
		

> durruti02 makes a good point. The strategy that Griffin suggests is exactly what the Lib Dems have been doing for the past few years in their target wards, often if wards where lazy local (usually, but not always) Labour councillors have got complacent.
> 
> And indeed it is the strategy that all the effective councillors from political parties use to secure a good vote. In many respects there is nothing wrong with the strategy - being seen to be active in grassroots community activities (such as community clear ups, fixing broken street lights, campaigning for kids' playgrounds etc) that might not be sexy in terms of grand political ideology is no bad thing. These are things that matter to communities and why shouldn't those people who work hard for their communities seek to stand as a councillor?
> 
> The only problem is when parties like the BNP do it as a cover for their nasty bigoted views. All it says to me is that if the BNP are going to be stopped opposition parties need to engage in grassroots campaigns too.



That said, it isn't exactly "news", is it?


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## nino_savatte (May 10, 2007)

The Pious Pawn said:
			
		

> they are getting votes because they are feeding on peoples fears , There is a open door policy on immigration in this country until that is sorted they will keep using it as one of there tools to get more and more votes .




What "open door" policy? I keep hearing this but I see no evidence...particularly when I see detention camps like Campsfield going up in flames. 

I would suggest that this "open door" line comes directly from the tabloid press and Tory Party Central Office.


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## JimPage (May 10, 2007)

Groucho said:
			
		

> durutti02 has finally convinced me...
> You can't beat the fascists unless you understand just how right they are on all the key issues, and just how prefect their strategy is. Until the left understand this they are doooomed1!!111!!!!!!!!
> 
> D


durrutti is asking people to examine what the strategy is not to agree with it. you have in griffins article, in black and white, what they intend to do over the next 12 months. griffinaccepts that the past strategy has failed- and we are getting 12 months notice that if we go into the 2008 elections we will not be facing a 2007-style BNP. Unlike, say the left up here in scotland who are currently in a bickering contest, they are analysing why they failed- and planning what to do about it. they will learn from their mistakes in 2007


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## JimPage (May 10, 2007)

FYI- they polled over 20% in 151 wards- which I would define as a credible vote


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## KeyboardJockey (May 10, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> What "open door" policy? I keep hearing this but I see no evidence...particularly when I see detention camps like Campsfield going up in flames.
> 
> I would suggest that this "open door" line comes directly from the tabloid press and Tory Party Central Office.



Nino, there may not be an official 'open door' policy and the treatment of genuine asylum seekers is a scandal but speaking of my experience in B and D there are many people, possibly even a majority in the borough whose negative experience of the demographic changes leads them to believe that the is an 'open door' policy and that they are 'second class citizens in their own country'.   

You and I both know how difficult it is to legally get into the UK but people who have never experienced this and are under extreme pressure with jobs and housing and who have demographic change forced upon them can't get their heads round this and are more likely to vote for those parties like the bnp who offer the prospect of change. 

However, I agree that the tabs have a lot to answer for in this. 

The answer is a non racist party / grouping using localism to build.  It will take a long time but this sort of org must be started now to beat the bnp in the future.  This future peoples party must take steps to exclude the failed left dogmatists, autoritiarians etc which ime make up a large part of the left as well as the communitiarians such as Respect if it is to survive and thrive and genuinely challenge the fascists.


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## lewislewis (May 10, 2007)

This is just a matter of resources and organisation, and also leadership. The BNP has a wide activist base and no rival far-right parties or splits (at least, none that contest elections). They have a known leader who can send a message to the party telling its members what to do.

Take the far-left though, there are about 127883752 tiny sects who disagree on far-out theoretical positions that have no impact on people's daily lives whatsoever. I know alot of people on this forum are involved in far-left politics, maybe your factions should put their differences aside and form one electoral front, get involved in your communities, clean shit up, instead of standing on the high street selling socialist workers (or whatever the SWP does nowadays).
Once you prove yourself as a hard worker in your ward, you can then insert the politics where appropriate. 
The BNP are posing as a mainstream party, and the far-left must do this as well if they want to counter the threat. Any political party can make short-term gains if they get involved in the community. That's what Plaid did in the valleys, unfortunately it went to shit organisationally, Labour woke up and annihilated us with a mad propaganda campaign. But we're still there and still the natural second party in those areas, with the chance to win them back next time.
There should be a single socialist party in each UK country, like the Socialist Alliance was.
The BNP have discipline and organisation. If the convenor of an imaginary Socialist party that emerged sent that message out to his members, the dozens of sects would start bickering over what the message meant and whether it complied with theory etc.
Until the far-left gets serious, it will have to keep on telling people to vote Labour (or Lib Dem, SNP, Plaid whatever) to keep the BNP out.

For my part, i'm with Plaid and am confident we can beat the BNP in any ward in any part of Wales, with considerable ease.


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## KeyboardJockey (May 10, 2007)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> This is just a matter of resources and organisation, and also leadership.



Couldn't agree more.  The various phonebox sized left sects couldn't organise their way out of a paper bag with an exit sign at the open end. 



			
				lewislewis said:
			
		

> The BNP has a wide activist base and no rival far-right parties or splits (at least, none that contest elections). They have a known leader who can send a message to the party telling its members what to do.



That is partly what is missing from the left is a central authority (not the vanguardists and other poseurs and plastic revolutionaries but a genuine leader)



			
				lewislewis said:
			
		

> Take the far-left though, there are about 127883752 tiny sects who disagree on far-out theoretical positions that have no impact on people's daily lives whatsoever.



Spot on.  If the left sects disappeared overnight who would miss them? nobody apart from left trainspotters. 



			
				lewislewis said:
			
		

> I know alot of people on this forum are involved in far-left politics, maybe your factions should put their differences aside and form one electoral front, get involved in your communities, clean shit up, instead of standing on the high street selling socialist workers (or whatever the SWP does nowadays).



In otherwords bugger all.  Also the presence of swp and others of the theoretical and non practical left in an area under pressue winds people up. 




			
				lewislewis said:
			
		

> Once you prove yourself as a hard worker in your ward, you can then insert the politics where appropriate.



Agreed. 




			
				lewislewis said:
			
		

> The BNP are posing as a mainstream party
> , and the far-left must do this as well if they want to counter the threat. Any political party can make short-term gains if they get involved in the community. That's what Plaid did in the valleys, unfortunately it went to shit organisationally, Labour woke up and annihilated us with a mad propaganda campaign. But we're still there and still the natural second party in those areas, with the chance to win them back next time.
> There should be a single socialist party in each UK country, like the Socialist Alliance was.




I  agree but it must be democratic and avoid domination by one particular groupuscule.  




			
				lewislewis said:
			
		

> The BNP have discipline and organisation. If the convenor of an imaginary Socialist party that emerged sent that message out to his members, the dozens of sects would start bickering over what the message meant and whether it complied with theory etc.



I've got disullosioned over the years with the left / tu's partly becuase of this 'Peoples Front of Judea-ism'



			
				lewislewis said:
			
		

> Until the far-left gets serious, it will have to keep on telling people to vote Labour (or Lib Dem, SNP, Plaid whatever) to keep the BNP out.




Which is a pointless foot shooting excercise as part of the reason for the bnps success is the fact atht they are seen as a credible alternative.


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## Fruitloop (May 10, 2007)

Jesus wept.


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## KeyboardJockey (May 10, 2007)

Fruitloop said:
			
		

> Jesus wept.



Whats that supposed to mean?  You can't honestly be calling the current left strategy a success can you?

the BNP have got to be beaten at their own game and the game is community poltics not lefty theoretical wanking and intellectual point scoring.


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## Fruitloop (May 10, 2007)

Why is it the job of the far left to defeat the BNP? Are people really voting BNP as a supplement for an electorally viable far-left alternative to fascism on the issue of economic migration? 'Cos we're completely fucked if that's the case.

Fortunately I think it is not so.


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## lewislewis (May 10, 2007)

Fruitloop said:
			
		

> Why is it the job of the far left to defeat the BNP? Are people really voting BNP as a supplement for an electorally viable far-left alternative to fascism on the issue of economic migration? 'Cos we're completely fucked if that's the case.
> 
> Fortunately I think it is not so.



No but they're voting BNP because they're disillusioned, there's a huge amount of people whose votes are up for grabs and the BNP will take them if they're the ones putting the work in at ward level.


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## Fruitloop (May 10, 2007)

And the consequences of that would be what, exactly?


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## Fruitloop (May 10, 2007)

I mean, is the worry that Nick Griffin is gonna make Prime Minister? The BNP are tolerated as a kind of media side-show as long as they aren't within shouting distance of any real power - how long will it take for them to be torn apart as soon as they represent a real threat, particularly given the apparent nature of many of their candidate's proclivities?


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## Fez909 (May 10, 2007)

All this talk of posing as a mainstream party is depressing. Why should politics have to come second to doing work in the community? They should go hand in hand, all the way. It's not an either or matter.

The left disagree on a lot of (largely unimportant) stuff, but the core message is pretty much the same. If people see genuine improvements to their society through a group which has 'strange' ideas, they're more likely to come around to that way of thinking, rather than it being enforced on them at some unknown day in the future once that group has managed to win their way into power.

I think this is a dishonest strategy.


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## Zeppo (May 10, 2007)

Fez talks a lot of sense. It is the battle of ideas and hard work on the ground that issues will be won. To persuade someone who wants to vote BNP an alternative needs to be put forward beyond the BNP are really bad people.

If the UK had 20% inflation and 5 million unemployed with the economy in tatters - how many votes would move to the BNP then? This may be a backdrop that the BNP would prefer. Meanwhile it is as usual all down to hard work to build an alternative.


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## durruti02 (May 10, 2007)

Fez909 said:
			
		

> I'm a bit unsure as to why this article has been seen as a good thing, durrati?
> 
> Firstly, it's all about the BNP's losses since last time. Griffin blames an increase in tactics by those opposed to the BNP rather than the pathetic councilors they had elected last time. He says that to gain more votes next time, they should emulate the work done by those who have beaten them this time. I don't think this is such a great strategy for changing people's lives for the better. It's core message is, "we'll give you what you have now, but with nationalism." Which means, what, no darkies? Hardly earth-shattering stuff from the Fat Fascist.
> 
> ...



yes i totally agree there is a nasty bigoted subtext which explains why a lot of people support it. However surveys in both east london and lancs have shown that many people who vote BNP do NOT suubsribe to these ideas but are looking for an outlet, a protest. so the worry is that that while that outlet should be for the left in fat it has gone to the right

by this sneaky and creepy strategy they are combining the core racist vote with a sympathy on the lines of ' well they're trying to do something' .. i think this is particularly dangerous in that they may end up actually convincing many of their voters who are not now anti immigrant or racist, but just fucked off, to be that

solution?? show them up with antifa prop yes, BUT also acknowledge that there are millions of don't knows out there who want to find something differrent something that appeals to a sense of community etc. this sounds cyncial and would be if it wasn't genuine. if the sw did it it would be cynical .. we need to develop a movement that is community based and progressive


----------



## durruti02 (May 10, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> durrutti is asking people to examine what the strategy is not to agree with it. you have in griffins article, in black and white, what they intend to do over the next 12 months. griffinaccepts that the past strategy has failed- and we are getting 12 months notice that if we go into the 2008 elections we will not be facing a 2007-style BNP. Unlike, say the left up here in scotland who are currently in a bickering contest, they are analysing why they failed- and planning what to do about it. they will learn from their mistakes in 2007



cheers jim for clarifying


----------



## durruti02 (May 10, 2007)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> This is just a matter of resources and organisation, and also leadership. The BNP has a wide activist base and no rival far-right parties or splits (at least, none that contest elections). They have a known leader who can send a message to the party telling its members what to do.
> 
> Take the far-left though, there are about 127883752 tiny sects who disagree on far-out theoretical positions that have no impact on people's daily lives whatsoever. I know alot of people on this forum are involved in far-left politics, maybe your factions should put their differences aside and form one electoral front, get involved in your communities, clean shit up, instead of standing on the high street selling socialist workers (or whatever the SWP does nowadays).
> Once you prove yourself as a hard worker in your ward, you can then insert the politics where appropriate.
> ...



can't disagree with that mate .. 


p.s. out of interest any ideas why those who voted bnp in wrecsam did not vote plaid?


----------



## bluestreak (May 10, 2007)

maybe i'm a thicky but would it be fair to say that respect, the green party, and the assorted left political parties are still more successful than the bnp?


----------



## durruti02 (May 10, 2007)

Fruitloop said:
			
		

> And the consequences of that would be what, exactly?



an increase in racial attacks for starters .. there is tons of evidence that everytime the bnp get councillors elected, racial attacks go up

more generally i am concerned they could, as Zeppo suggests, be getting into a pole position for when the shit hits the fan economically ( how much debt do we have in this country???) and people are looking for someone to blame

it is incredible that after 20 years of thatcherism we are only now having this debate (and thinking how to play catch up with the bnp!!!!)


----------



## durruti02 (May 10, 2007)

bluestreak said:
			
		

> maybe i'm a thicky but would it be fair to say that respect, the green party, and the assorted left political parties are still more successful than the bnp?



of course they are still small .. but it is the rate of growth, and where it is that is frightenning  ..  they are far more significant than Respect in any working class areas (outside of high % anglo-/pakistani seats)


----------



## KeyboardJockey (May 10, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> of course they are still small .. but it is the rate of growth, and where it is that is frightenning  ..  they are far more significant than Respect in any working class areas (outside of high % anglo-/pakistani seats)



I couldn't agree more.  I'd predict that they are going to be more successful than Mosley's lot. 

It frustrates me that Respect tout themselves  as an alternative and don't even bother doing the work in white working class areas.


----------



## Fruitloop (May 10, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> an increase in racial attacks for starters .. there is tons of evidence that everytime the bnp get councillors elected, racial attacks go up
> 
> more generally i am concerned they could, as Zeppo suggests, be getting into a pole position for when the shit hits the fan economically ( how much debt do we have in this country???) and people are looking for someone to blame
> 
> it is incredible that after 20 years of thatcherism we are only now having this debate (and thinking how to play catch up with the bnp!!!!)



Who is only now having what debate?

I honestly think it's going to take more than a debt-related crash to put the BNP in pole position for anything - unless there are major electoral changes they will remain what they've always been, a minor party spectating the great pendulum of two-party 'democracy'.


----------



## lewislewis (May 10, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> can't disagree with that mate ..
> 
> 
> p.s. out of interest any ideas why those who voted bnp in wrecsam did not vote plaid?



The BNP vote up there was certainly linked to racial issues, although i'm not 100% sure what happened on the ground or what the issues were.


----------



## Groucho (May 10, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> of course they are still small .. but it is the rate of growth, and where it is that is frightenning  ..  they are far more significant than Respect in any working class areas (outside of high % anglo-/pakistani seats)



I don't want to derail onto Respect but the 60% white Preston constituency where Lavallette was re-elected, or the almost 100% white Bolsover constituency where Respect won with a socialist former miner were both working class areas. In both cases the kind of local campaigning agenda keying in to peope's real concerns and linking these to broader political issues that you say you advocate were key to these successes. And while we're at it - are the Bangladeshi community in Tower Hamlets Pakistanis now?  

Yes, racist attacks do increase where the BNP have a presence and more so if they get elected. Anti-immigrant feeling stemming from acceptance of myths about immigration contributes to this, yet you spend much of your time advocating that anti-immigration campaigns be taken up by the left. Every time the anti-Immigration argument is conceded whether by the press, or by politicians or by supposed (or misguided) anti-racists it fuels support for the likes of the BNP. *You don't head them off by accepting part of their agenda.*
In B & D there is NO 'homes for Africans' scandal. It is a myth, but is a widely accepted one. You can't deal with the 'homes for Africans' issue because it isn't there to deal with. There is though a real housing issue that the local press have assisted the BNP in turning into an anti-immigration cul-de-sac. Since the local LP are somewhat gagged in dealing with the real housing problems precided over by the LP Govt. no real alternative is being put to that of the BNP.


----------



## durruti02 (May 10, 2007)

Fruitloop said:
			
		

> Who is only now having what debate?
> 
> I honestly think it's going to take more than a debt-related crash to put the BNP in pole position for anything - unless there are major electoral changes they will remain what they've always been, a minor party spectating the great pendulum of two-party 'democracy'.



the left has not had a debate about work in communities apart from a short lived one around the poll tax ( sw against .. SP for .. in fact tbh of course the SP does work in communities though it stil does a lot of fluff)  except for  of course the RA led debate in AFA leading to IWCA

 i appreciate what you say .. it may juts be a yo yo thing .. maybe they do have a 15% ceiling BUT even that is really fking scary especially in times of strife .. not sure if you had a look at their votes but some really big ones and very wide spread .. 

again IF there was a left alt. then again it would not be so bad .. but there is virtually none


----------



## Fruitloop (May 10, 2007)

Another thing I don't get it, why is the worry that the fascists will gain ground only in working-class communities? Hasn't fascism here traditionally relied heavily on the support of the middle classes and their organs, like the Daily Mail etc?

Given that historically a key plank of fascist ideology has always been anti-communism (on a par I think with anti-semitism as an invariant feature of fascist organisations), maybe it's better that the left is composed of a million tiny fragments. Previous periods of high public support for the fascists have almost always coincided with a high degree of (perceived or actual) communist threat, so maybe we should be careful about which direction we end up driving the bourgeiosie in.


----------



## Groucho (May 10, 2007)

bluestreak said:
			
		

> maybe i'm a thicky but would it be fair to say that respect, the green party, and the assorted left political parties are still more successful than the bnp?



The BNP have 50 councillors. I think the Greens have more (??) Respect have 20. Assorted other left parties have a smattering. So on that basis yes. But the BNP are a single presence.

The fact is though that the BNP have been establishing themselves on the political terrain. That in itself is dangerous. And I agree with Zeppo that an economic crisis would fuel support in the absence of a much better rooted left alternative to LP. 

On the plus side the fact is we are a much more ethnically diverese society than we were in the days of the BUF or at the high point of the NF, and a more integrated society at that. And the BNP's public face has to be far more moderate than either were. They can pick up racist votes but as yet there is little support for their real fascist agenda. When they call for mobilisations only a pathetic core of fascists turn up. In the recent council elections they lost almost as many councillors as they gained - the callibre of their candidates must leave a lot to be desired from their point of view. The recent results outside of Wales were a great disappointment to them. So without being complacent it is wrong to big them up too much.


----------



## durruti02 (May 10, 2007)

Groucho said:
			
		

> 1)I don't want to derail onto Respect but the 60% white Preston constituency where Lavallette was re-elected, or the almost 100% white Bolsover constituency where Respect won with a socialist former miner were both working class areas. In both cases the kind of local campaigning agenda keying in to peope's real concerns and linking these to broader political issues that you say you advocate were key to these successes.
> 
> 2)And while we're at it - are the Bangladeshi community in Tower Hamlets Pakistanis now?
> 
> ...



1)i think the resultin preston are excellent .. iwould think we all need to look at how Respect in preston, IWCA  in oxford and SP in e.g cov have suceeded .. and you need to acknowledge that this success does not reflect respect generally

2)oops .. lazy!  my point was the strategy does not work with all muslims e.g. the turkish pop (didn't bangla used to be east pakistan!) ( edited due to gross geogaphically stupidity!)

3) yes you ar e right

4) ??? what anti- immigration campaigns .. immigration is a key part of neo-liberalism yes? anti immigrant attitudes are ALREADY widespread in the community .. it is correct that we as a left need to find a way of OPPOSING the import or movment of labour for strike breaking, wage cutting etc etc while at the same time remaining progressive .. saying nothing is NOT an option

5) said nowt on this but agree .. bnp clearly lied and also clearly LP are part of the problem .. we need to build an alt.


----------



## durruti02 (May 10, 2007)

Fruitloop said:
			
		

> 1)Another thing I don't get it, why is the worry that the fascists will gain ground only in working-class communities? Hasn't fascism here traditionally relied heavily on the support of the middle classes and their organs, like the Daily Mail etc?
> 
> 2)Given that historically a key plank of fascist ideology has always been anti-communism (on a par I think with anti-semitism as an invariant feature of fascist organisations), maybe it's better that the left is composed of a million tiny fragments. Previous periods of high public support for the fascists have almost always coincided with a high degree of (perceived or actual) communist threat, so maybe we should be careful about which direction we end up driving the bourgeiosie in.



1) yes you are right ..  they seem to be doing particularly  well in lower middle class areas

2) interesting point! but there are more of us than them!


----------



## pingupete (May 10, 2007)

Groucho said:
			
		

> The BNP have 50 councillors. I think the Greens have more (??)



Greens have 111 in England, 8 in Scotland


----------



## lewislewis (May 11, 2007)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> The BNP vote up there was certainly linked to racial issues, although i'm not 100% sure what happened on the ground or what the issues were.



Durruti02, having looked into this a bit more and thought about it, it's quite likely that most of the people who voted for the BNP in North Wales, especially in Wrecsam, were voting on the racial issues- large numbers of Eastern Europeans and also problems between the white people and Iraqis with some nasty rioting a few years ago. It is most likely that the majority of these voters were English people, for whom voting for Plaid just wouldn't wash. As such, the reason the BNP voters didn't vote Labour, Plaid, Tory or Lib Dem is simple; the voters wanted to register their frustration at the supposed influx of immigrants in those areas by voting for a controversial party that was stoking up animosity towards them. 

Plaid's job in that area must be to propose an alternative to the BNP's politics of hate, I know they're trying but it is difficult in some areas to get English-mindset people (Especially those that are racist !) to vote for such a Welsh party.

One interesting part of the Welsh election was the disappearance of the socialist left, there was no presence in terms of candidates or campaigning. The SLP were on all 5 regional ballots, the Communist Party of Britain (all 5 regions) stodd, then the Socialist Alternative were on 2 regions, Respect on 2 regions and the Socialist Equality Party on 1 region. All polled less than 1 % of the national share, except for the SLP which polled 1.2%, about 12,000 votes. The BNP polled 40,000 odd votes, 4.3%.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (May 11, 2007)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> Durruti02, having looked into this a bit more and thought about it, it's quite likely that most of the people who voted for the BNP in North Wales...It is most likely that the majority of these voters were English people, for whom voting for Plaid just wouldn't wash.


Are you shewer? Seems like a bit of a get-out clause for me. I asked a similar Q about BNP/SNP and was told it ain't an issue. How can nationalism not be an issue?


----------



## Das Uberdog (May 11, 2007)

KeyboardJockey said:
			
		

> I couldn't agree more.  I'd predict that they are going to be more successful than Mosley's lot.
> 
> It frustrates me that Respect tout themselves  as an alternative and don't even bother doing the work in white working class areas.



Would like to say bollocks, not just on the "PRESTON AND BOLSOVER, *PRESTON AND BOLSOVER*" front either.

We stand in plenty of wards around the country where there isn't a significant Muslim population. It just so happens that Preston and Bolsover are the first of these wards in which we've had significant successes, but in many of the other areas we're posing a serious challenge and are making 2nd/1st pos. I won't deny that Respect gained significantly from the anti-war sentiment amongst the Bangladeshi community in Landan, but even there (from hearing people taking the exit polls) it sounds like our vote was a mix of white and Asian, fairly equally. However much the Bangladeshi community hate the war, they're also tribally loyal to Labour.


----------



## nino_savatte (May 11, 2007)

Fruitloop said:
			
		

> Another thing I don't get it, why is the worry that the fascists will gain ground only in working-class communities? Hasn't fascism here traditionally relied heavily on the support of the middle classes and their organs, like the Daily Mail etc?
> 
> Given that historically a key plank of fascist ideology has always been anti-communism (on a par I think with anti-semitism as an invariant feature of fascist organisations), maybe it's better that the left is composed of a million tiny fragments. Previous periods of high public support for the fascists have almost always coincided with a high degree of (perceived or actual) communist threat, so maybe we should be careful about which direction we end up driving the bourgeiosie in.



Quite right, it is all to easy to overlook middle class involvement in fascist politics and claim that it is an entirely working class problem.


----------



## The Black Hand (May 11, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> Quite right, it is all to easy to overlook middle class involvement in fascist politics and claim that it is an entirely working class problem.



Indeed, in the North East Andrew Spence (ex UKIP farmer/Haulage owner) the only BNP candidate in Derwentside is a petty bourgeois, and in Catterick 2candidates are Publicans (this is just from what I have picked up - there is no systematic research).


----------



## KeyboardJockey (May 11, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> Quite right, it is all to easy to overlook middle class involvement in fascist politics and claim that it is an entirely working class problem.



Correct.  The bnp is also doing well with the sort of 'working class blokes made good' who moved out to places  like Hornchurch and Upminster when they made  a bit of money.  These voters would have normally voted Tory but in some cases are moving to bnp.


----------



## dennisr (May 11, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> Quite right, it is all to easy to overlook middle class involvement in fascist politics and claim that it is an entirely working class problem.



The problem fascists always had when they represented a serious force was how to control the layer of working class folk they leaned on for support. The Nazis played the 'german worker' card but beheaded their own 'left-wing' when they got to power with the night of the long knives. The basis of their 'solid' support is not working class in outlook or interests. 

Actually retaining support from the section of working class people who have voted BNP is a long term problem for them - they offer no solutions for the specific problems working class people face, at least, not tied to artificial 'national' interests


----------



## nino_savatte (May 11, 2007)

KeyboardJockey said:
			
		

> Correct.  The bnp is also doing well with the sort of 'working class blokes made good' who moved out to places  like Hornchurch and Upminster when they made  a bit of money.  These voters would have normally voted Tory but in some cases are moving to bnp.



No one would describe Griffin and his inner circle as "proles". Wasn't Tyndall some sort of petit aristocrat?


----------



## nino_savatte (May 11, 2007)

dennisr said:
			
		

> The problem fascists always had when they represented a serious force was how to control the layer of working class folk they leaned on for support. The Nazis played the 'german worker' card but beheaded their own 'left-wing' when they got to power with the night of the long knives. The basis of their 'solid' support is not working class in outlook or interests.
> 
> Actually retaining support from the section of working class people who have voted BNP is a long term problem for them - they offer no solutions for the specific problems working class people face, at least, not tied to artificial 'national' interests



Aye, the last thing the leadership of any fascist party wants is a bunch of proles sticking their oar in with their needs. Far better for the fash to make all the right noises about "immigration" and use the working class vote to ease the path to power. Any ideology that marries state and corporate power could never consider the needs of the proletariat because it undermines the very idea of that power relationship.


----------



## dash_two (May 11, 2007)

The Far Right claim to be against immigration but over the past forty years or so have been remarkably unsuccessful in doing anything to stop it.

They are in the strange position of hating and fearing immigrants yet they must also know that without high levels of immigration they have little chance of gaining widespread support outside the 'ethnic frontier' areas, at least in the short to medium term.


----------



## KeyboardJockey (May 11, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> No one would describe Griffin and his inner circle as "proles". Wasn't Tyndall some sort of petit aristocrat?



I seem to recall something like that.  Or at the very least a forelock tugger  where aristos were concerned.


----------



## Divisive Cotton (May 11, 2007)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> Durruti02, having looked into this a bit more and thought about it, it's quite likely that most of the people who voted for the BNP in North Wales, especially in Wrecsam, were voting on the racial issues- large numbers of Eastern Europeans and also problems between the white people and Iraqis with some nasty rioting a few years ago. It is most likely that the majority of these voters were English people, for whom voting for Plaid just wouldn't wash. As such, the reason the BNP voters didn't vote Labour, Plaid, Tory or Lib Dem is simple; the voters wanted to register their frustration at the supposed influx of immigrants in those areas by voting for a controversial party that was stoking up animosity towards them.



Well that would be a believable explanation for their vote - but would be interested to see some evidence to back that argument up


----------



## chilango (May 11, 2007)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> The BNP has a wide activist base and no rival far-right parties or splits (at least, none that contest elections).



Small quibble...that's not quite accurate.

There are a number of rivals and splits who contest elections at the mo. 

There's one "England First" ? set up by ex BNP councillor iirc, that did damage the BNP vote up North somewhere.

Someone here will know more i'm sure...


----------



## chilango (May 11, 2007)

Divisive Cotton said:
			
		

> Well that would be a believable explanation for their vote - but would be interested to see some evidence to back that argument up



There were "race riots" (at least thats what the media described them as) in Wrecsam not so long ago. No doubt the BNP have played on that.


----------



## portman (May 12, 2007)

KeyboardJockey said:
			
		

> Correct.  The bnp is also doing well with the sort of 'working class blokes made good' who moved out to places  like Hornchurch and Upminster when they made  a bit of money.  These voters would have normally voted Tory but in some cases are moving to bnp.



There's one ward in my part of Thurrock called Homesteads which tends to back up this notion. Unlike the Stanford East and Corringham Town ward which I contested for the IWCA, Homesteads has no local authority or housing association homes. It is almost all owner occupiers with the mix of housing going from bottom of the range developments of terraces and semis up to detached houses down leafy roads. A lot of the population are working class made good plus a fair few who consider themselves solidly middle class. Certainly no deprivation or social stress like there is in parts of Stanford East and Corringham Town.

The BNP contested Homesteads in a by-election a few years back (1.12.05) and polled 150 votes. Last year they didn't bother, putting all of their effort into Stanford East and Corringham Town. This year they did contest Homesteads and stormed to a worringly impressive 652 votes. This is one of the more affluent wards inthe eastern part of Thurrock - home of worried and increasingly bitter Mail and Express readers. Quite possibly people who regard those living on some of the estates on the other side of the road in Stanford East and Corringham Town as scum! Which having canvassed those estates is very far from the truth but there you go... Unfortunately I don't have any contacts in Homesteads because I would love to know what sort of campaign the BNP mounted and what they were saying to people on the doorstep. 

Because, if it is what I think they might have been saying to some people about the estate dwellers in the ward I was contesting, it could prove to be very useful ammunition...


----------



## The Black Hand (May 12, 2007)

portman said:
			
		

> There's one ward in my part of Thurrock called Homesteads which tends to back up this notion. Unlike the Stanford East and Corringham Town ward which I contested for the IWCA, Homesteads has no local authority or housing association homes. It is almost all owner occupiers with the mix of housing going from bottom of the range developments of terraces and semis up to detached houses down leafy roads. A lot of the population are working class made good plus a fair few who consider themselves solidly middle class. Certainly no deprivation or social stress like there is in parts of Stanford East and Corringham Town.
> 
> The BNP contested Homesteads in a by-election a few years back (1.12.05) and polled 150 votes. Last year they didn't bother, putting all of their effort into Stanford East and Corringham Town. This year they did contest Homesteads and stormed to a worringly impressive 652 votes. This is one of the more affluent wards inthe eastern part of Thurrock - home of worried and increasingly bitter Mail and Express readers. Quite possibly people who regard those living on some of the estates on the other side of the road in Stanford East and Corringham Town as scum! Which having canvassed those estates is very far from the truth but there you go... Unfortunately I don't have any contacts in Homesteads because I would love to know what sort of campaign the BNP mounted and what they were saying to people on the doorstep.
> 
> Because, if it is what I think they might have been saying to some people about the estate dwellers in the ward I was contesting, it could prove to be very useful ammunition...



*Go and knock on their doors and ask them Portman*. Go in a suit with a clipboard and say you are from Essex university doing a survey about party canvassing at the recent election. Have a questionnaire ready (photocopied) numbers, dress sense, What introduction did they give, did they give a name? (don't ask for the name) you know, make it sound like a real survey... they you can develop the conversation in the direction you want it to go to get the info... 

Preparation time - 2-3 hours. Going out and doing it about the same. Not too bad a return for the effort if you get the information you want...


----------



## Joe Reilly (May 12, 2007)

Larry O'Hara said:
			
		

> Not only should you know better, having (I presume) read a couple of my articles on the Griffin BNP, let's consider one basic fact: at 50 councillors, the GRiffin BNP has more than every previous fascist group (including the Tyndall BNP) put together, by a factor of at least 5.  Don't you think Left groups would kill (metaphorically) to get circa 14% of the vote in elections?
> 
> The problem here, I fear, is you have an a priori dismissive analysis of Griffin's strategy, not based on historical empirical or strategic evidence, and applaud posters who concur with your premises.  Were the matter not so serious, it would be amusing.



Larry, you have it spot on. His reference to '50 out of 20k' councillors proves it. This is the classic line adopted by all who insist that 'nothing _need_ be done'. The supreme attraction of this policy position is that it has as much credibility if the reference should be just a '1000 out of 20k' as it is currently. And so on. Or putting it another way, he and his ilk are never likely to be proved wrong. In the meantime, society continues to move right...


----------



## The Black Hand (May 13, 2007)

Joe Reilly said:
			
		

> Larry, you have it spot on. His reference to '50 out of 20k' councillors proves it. This is the classic line adopted by all who insist that 'nothing _need_ be done'. The supreme attraction of this policy position is that it has as much credibility if the reference should be just a '1000 out of 20k' as it is currently. And so on. Or putting it another way, he and his ilk are never likely to be proved wrong. In the meantime, society continues to move right...



You haven't been reading what I have been writing Joe. To save you the time this is precis of what I have said;

Actually I am (using current in vogue libertarian language) arguing for an horizontal popular front of anti fascism, which organises beyond traditional boundaries and explicitely involves those targetted by racists and fascists within the programme. It would also (going back to the 19th formation of the British working class) be involved in whatever voluntary, charity, welfare support systems there are for those migrants (secular if possible but including religious ones cos they have the space and some resources). And these official and unoffficial institutions exist all over the country already.


----------



## JimPage (May 13, 2007)

chilango said:
			
		

> Small quibble...that's not quite accurate.
> 
> There are a number of rivals and splits who contest elections at the mo.
> 
> ...



The EFP did do some damage last year getting 2 elected- but both councillors resigned  they seats earlier this year, and no new ones elected

The BNP are pretty much the only option for a fash who actually wants to acheive something


----------



## chilango (May 13, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> The EFP did do some damage last year getting 2 elected- but both councillors resigned  they seats earlier this year, and no new ones elected
> 
> The BNP are pretty much the only option for a fash who actually wants to acheive something



Yup.

But, the BNP have not avoided splits and rivals anymore than the SWP/Respect have.

Thats my point. The fact that the BNP maintain hegemony pretty much would be interesting to investigate.


----------



## portman (May 14, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> *Go and knock on their doors and ask them Portman*. Go in a suit with a clipboard and say you are from Essex university doing a survey about party canvassing at the recent election. Have a questionnaire ready (photocopied) numbers, dress sense, What introduction did they give, did they give a name? (don't ask for the name) you know, make it sound like a real survey... they you can develop the conversation in the direction you want it to go to get the info...
> 
> Preparation time - 2-3 hours. Going out and doing it about the same. Not too bad a return for the effort if you get the information you want...



Preliminary inquiries indicate that apart from changing the name of the candidate, they used the same leaflet that went out in the ward I contested. My wife talked to some people she knew in the ward and they were not canvassed by the BNP - so they didn't do a blanket canvass even though this was a new area for them. Thinking about it, immigration was most likely the key issue - Homesteads is the whitest ward in the borough. There seems to be a very defensive pull up the drawbridge mentality in the area. Investigation will continue...

...the most worrying thing is the vote the BNP got without having to put in a lot of effort...


----------



## Das Uberdog (May 14, 2007)

chilango said:
			
		

> Yup.
> 
> But, the BNP have not avoided splits and rivals anymore than the SWP/Respect have.
> 
> Thats my point. The fact that the BNP maintain hegemony pretty much would be interesting to investigate.



What splits have we had?


----------



## Paul Marsh (May 14, 2007)

chilango said:
			
		

> There were "race riots" (at least thats what the media described them as) in Wrecsam not so long ago. No doubt the BNP have played on that.



At the time Griffin's arrival in the town was not popular, and the riots were in 2003 - nearly four years ago. They have built up a base in the time _since_ the riots. 

Oddly enough people I spoke to in Wrexham when I went there in 2005 were delighted by the arrests that occured in the distrubances - the flow of hard drugs into the town had been greatly reduced by those arrests and subsequent jailings.


----------



## dash_two (May 14, 2007)

If you don't want the BNP to do well, don't have so much immigration.


----------



## nino_savatte (May 14, 2007)

dash_two said:
			
		

> If you don't want the BNP to do well, don't have so much immigration.



What an odd thing to say. You may as well say "If you don't want the BNP to do well, don't be black, Asian or Jewish".


----------



## dash_two (May 14, 2007)

No, it's not an odd thing to say. When lots of people perceive immigration to be 'too high' or 'out of control', then a party with an anti-immigration agenda will inevitably pick up more support. This is bleeding obvious.

You might want high levels of immigration for various reasons but you'll have to accept that at the same time you will increase support for an anti-immigration party. Otherwise it's a case of wanting to have your cake and eat it.


----------



## nino_savatte (May 14, 2007)

dash_two said:
			
		

> No, it's not an odd thing to say. When lots of people perceive immigration to be 'too high' or 'out of control', then a party with an anti-immigration agenda will inevitably pick up more support. This is bleeding obvious.



It is an odd thing to say...or let me put it another way, by saying such things you pander to their prejudices. The BNP don't have huge support but, according to you, they seem to have acquired a massive base of support overnight.

In fact, you may as well join them, if that's how you feel.


----------



## dash_two (May 14, 2007)

Join the BNP? huh, that bunch of do-gooders.

"they seem to have acquired a massive base of support overnight."

Now where did I say that?


----------



## nino_savatte (May 14, 2007)

dash_two said:
			
		

> Join the BNP? huh, that bunch of do-gooders.



Not right wing enough for you - huh?


----------



## fractionMan (May 14, 2007)

.


----------



## dash_two (May 14, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> Not right wing enough for you - huh?



You are maybe too earnest to spot irony.


----------



## nino_savatte (May 14, 2007)

dash_two said:
			
		

> You are maybe too earnest to spot irony.



Maybe you should learn to use smilies, lest folk will think you're being serious.

Twat.


----------



## dash_two (May 14, 2007)

Well that's charming, that is.

So, let us set aside the troubling thought that support for the BNP increases when immigration is at such a level that large numbers of people tell pollsters it's a major concern!


----------



## nino_savatte (May 14, 2007)

dash_two said:
			
		

> Well that's charming, that is.
> 
> So, let us set aside the troubling thought that support for the BNP increases when immigration is at such a level that large numbers of people tell pollsters it's a major concern!



So your advice is to pander to a small far right party...that's your solution, is it?

You're not only incredibly naive, you're thick as well.

Oh and on the subject of immigration, perhaps you would do well to think on the subjects of emigration and xenophobia.


----------



## nino_savatte (May 14, 2007)

Oh and you weren't being "ironic" earlier.


----------



## dash_two (May 14, 2007)

Like it or not, nino, high levels of immigration are widely unpopular, and in that atmosphere an anti-immigration party can be expected to reap rewards. That's just the way things are.

"Oh and you weren't being "ironic" earlier."

Nino, I wouldn't dispute your possession of certain circus skills, but I don't think mind-reading is among them.


----------



## nino_savatte (May 14, 2007)

dash_two said:
			
		

> Like it or not, nino, high levels of immigration are widely unpopular, and in that atmosphere an anti-immigration party can be expected to reap rewards. That's just the way things are.
> 
> "Oh and you weren't being "ironic" earlier."
> 
> Nino, I wouldn't dispute your possession of certain circus skills, but I don't think mind-reading is among them.



You want to pander to the BNP who are not a major party.

Maybe your reason for saying all of this is to get me to call you a "racist". I'm sure you'd like that. 

What does "mind reading and circus skills" have to do with any of this? 

You are Swarthy Thug/Mr Lustbather.


----------



## dash_two (May 14, 2007)

I'd rather pander to the majority of British public opinion and see the BNP wither on the vine. I'd guess lots of Tories were convinced that the poll tax was the right thing to do, and that abandoning it would mean caving in to left-wingers. But abandon it they had to. So it is today with immigration. There are limits on what can and can't be done in the world, and public opinion is a big part of that.

If you mean 'racist' in the left-wing sense of 'person who I don't like/agree with' then I can just about live with that. If you mean it in the more normal sense of 'person who regards other races as inferior' then leave it out, thanks.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (May 14, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> Respect beat the BNP in 11 out of 16 wards, and Ukip in 5 out of 7.



Bit meaningless becuase both Respect and UKIP will have targetted more, fielding less candidates overall.

There is no denying the nazi vote wasnt bad, and that their strategy and Griffens analysis is astute. Griffen is right that local politics fails to reach out beyond core votes. As someone who ran for The Greens I witnessed this.

The low turnout is a disgrace and de-legitimises democracy, but the likes of Labour and Liberal simply dont care - it keeps them in power. The ongoing failure of major parties to represent anything other than corporate careerism is a major boost to the fascist cause. So is the fetish for fascism we constantly see in our press. The Green Party have loads more councillors and generally less news items devoted to us. 

Racism and fascism are clearly more newsworthy than tired old crap like saving the species. Ho hum.


----------



## nino_savatte (May 14, 2007)

dash_two said:
			
		

> I'd rather pander to the majority of British public opinion and see the BNP wither on the vine. I'd guess lots of Tories were convinced that the poll tax was the right thing to do, and that abandoning it would mean caving in to left-wingers. But abandon it they had to. So it is today with immigration. There are limits on what can and can't be done in the world, and public opinion is a big part of that.
> 
> If you mean 'racist' in the left-wing sense of 'person who I don't like/agree with' then I can just about live with that. If you mean it in the more normal sense of 'person who regards other races as inferior' then leave it out, thanks.



Fuck me, you're all over the shop here.

Your idea, like you, is barking. Anyone suggesting that we "eliminate immigration" to please the BNP, hasn't got a clue. You may just as well offer them a chair at the cabinet table.

As for the mythical "public opinion" of which you speak, would you care to provide some information to support your claim that your view on immigration is the "majority" view.


----------



## dash_two (May 14, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> As for the mythical "public opinion" of which you speak, would you care to provide some information to support your claim that your view on immigration is the "majority" view.



Let's have a look through the round window today, shall we?

For starters, a recent Sunday Times YouGov poll found that:



> The best way for [Gordon] Brown to boost his popularity would be to reduce immigration, say 60% of those polled, followed by bringing British troops home from Iraq, 49%, improving the National Health Service, 37%, and making it easier to deport terrorist suspects, 30%.



http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article1782117.ece

For the main course, another recent YouGov poll, this time in the Telegraph. When asked to list Blair's failures, at number one, with 58%, was allowing immigration to rise to unacceptable levels. See the 'click to enlarge' link on this page:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/04/30/nblairdec30.xml

I've saved this last one for dessert. Even a cynic like me got a bit of a shock reading it. It's from a 2002 poll commissioned by the BBC into attitudes towards immigration. Among other questions, people were asked:



> Do you think that immigration has benefited or damaged British society over the past 50 years?



30% of all respondents said it has benefitted our society. 44% said it has damaged it. 26% went for 'don't know' - probably the biggest 'don't know' response I've ever seen in a poll. (I would probably be one of them.) You'll need to scroll down and click on the questions to see the responses.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/in_depth/uk/2002/race/survey.stm#Immigration


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (May 14, 2007)

Despite the semi-flattering things I said upthread about the Cylops Fuhrers analysis, it must be said that the BNP will always fail to successfully build while the majority of their councillors are completely shit.

For everyone that gets elected, there's generally one elsewhere getting booted out for being inept or lazy.

It's no mystery, why would a bunch of race-obsessed criminals be anygood at handling issues like road safety, planning, benefits, drains and dogshit issues that are the day to day reality for life as a councillor?


----------



## dash_two (May 14, 2007)

taffboy gwyrdd said:
			
		

> It's no mystery, why would a bucnh of race-obsessed criminals be anygood at handling issues like road safety, planning, benefits, drains and dogshit issues that are the day to day reality for life as a councillor?



People on the political fringes are often too odd and self-absorbed to function effectively at such tasks. But the BNP wants to recruit more normal or 'respectable' people, and if it succeeds then it will enlarge the pool of those it can trust to carry out the duties of a councillor.

They could seek motivation in their work from feelings and ideas of kin altruism or 'looking after our own kind'.


----------



## KeyboardJockey (May 14, 2007)

dash_two said:
			
		

> People on the political fringes are often too odd and self-absorbed to function effectively at such tasks. But the BNP wants to recruit more normal or 'respectable' people, and if it succeeds then it will enlarge the pool of those it can trust to carry out the duties of a councillor.
> 
> They could seek motivation in their work from feelings and ideas of kin altruism or 'looking after our own kind'.



Having observed the bnp at very close  quarters I would  say that they are beginning to learn the lessons of having idiots in electoral  positions.  They are just starting to get intellegent candidates and this may well be a sorting the wheat from the chaff situation where the more intellegent racists can grap their place in the ascendancy within th eparty. 

This is the point in which to worry.  A party made up of knuckledraggers is something you can take the piss out of but a party t hat is working for a wider appeal is much more dangerous.


----------



## JimPage (May 14, 2007)

Paul Marsh said:
			
		

> At the time Griffin's arrival in the town was not popular, and the riots were in 2003 - nearly four years ago. They have built up a base in the time _since_ the riots.
> 
> Oddly enough people I spoke to in Wrexham when I went there in 2005 were delighted by the arrests that occured in the distrubances - the flow of hard drugs into the town had been greatly reduced by those arrests and subsequent jailings.



they now have 2 parish councillors in Wrexham as well- expect a sizable show by them in the local elections in May 2008- especially if the price to be paid for LibDem support in the Welsh Assembly is PR at local elections- as happened up here in Scotland


----------



## treelover (May 14, 2007)

a sharp riposte to the witchfinder general, Dash Two, 




> If you mean 'racist' in the left-wing sense of 'person who I don't like/agree with' then I can just about live with that. If you mean it in the more normal sense of 'person who regards other races as inferior' then leave it out, thanks.


----------



## dash_two (May 14, 2007)

treelover said:
			
		

> the witchfinder general



I hear his unicycle drawing nigh


----------



## chilango (May 14, 2007)

Paul Marsh said:
			
		

> At the time Griffin's arrival in the town was not popular, and the riots were in 2003 - nearly four years ago. They have built up a base in the time _since_ the riots.
> 
> Oddly enough people I spoke to in Wrexham when I went there in 2005 were delighted by the arrests that occured in the distrubances - the flow of hard drugs into the town had been greatly reduced by those arrests and subsequent jailings.



Of course.

I left in 2004, so Ive misssed whatever has happenned since then.

However the BNP presence was growing rapidly in NE Wales during 2003-2004 PRIOR to the riots. They no doubt were able to use them to their benefit - maybe in other parts of the area, no?


----------



## chilango (May 14, 2007)

Das Uberdog said:
			
		

> What splits have we had?



Do you really want a history lesson?

Since the BNP as it is now, not so many...the ISG maybe.

Prior to that...let`s see....

RCP
RCG
RDG
WP
RA

for starters...

and the rest of the left is no better. Even Workers Power managed to split!

But more pertinantly, the collapse/disintegration of the Socialist Alliance (which the SWP was a key player in).

...and I'll put money on Respect going the same way within 2 to 3 years (max)

Some people argue that the fragmentation of the Left in Britain into dozens of competing factions that cannot cooperate on any succesful joint venture at all (look at the SSP for gods sake) is one reason why there is a vacuum that the BNP step in to fill.

They contrast this with a perception that the far right remains largely united within the BNP.

Not an argument that I agree with but still.....


----------



## The Black Hand (May 14, 2007)

dash_two said:
			
		

> No, it's not an odd thing to say. When lots of people perceive immigration to be 'too high' or 'out of control', then a party with an anti-immigration agenda will inevitably pick up more support. This is bleeding obvious.
> 
> You might want high levels of immigration for various reasons but you'll have to accept that at the same time you will increase support for an anti-immigration party. Otherwise it's a case of wanting to have your cake and eat it.



THe institute of race relations published some research which said that pandering to racist/anti migration parties actually INCREASED their vote... SO the lesson is....


----------



## audiotech (May 14, 2007)




----------



## audiotech (May 14, 2007)

taffboy gwyrdd said:
			
		

> Bit meaningless becuase both Respect and UKIP will have targetted more, fielding less candidates overall.



Respect also beat the Greens in 24 out of 25 wards in which they competed. Meaningless?


----------



## audiotech (May 14, 2007)

chilango said:
			
		

> Do you really want a history lesson?
> 
> Since the BNP as it is now, not so many...the ISG maybe.
> 
> ...



Those sectlets you mention walked, or were expelled. No "splits" as such as those groups involved just a few individuals at most, as they are still now (those that still exist that is).  

Didn't the SP walk away from the Socialist Alliance because they couldn't control it?

Some thought Respect wouldn't last 12 months. How wrong they were.


----------



## becky p (May 14, 2007)

dash_two said:
			
		

> Let's have a look through the round window today, shall we?
> 
> For starters, a recent Sunday Times YouGov poll found that:
> 
> ...



Its fairly obvious to most people that immigration is a major issue. The BNP will try to use the issue to gain new support.The kind of support far right parties have in countries like France and Italy.
I dont think ignoring the issue will do any good. But the issue has to be tackled sensitively.


----------



## audiotech (May 14, 2007)

becky p said:
			
		

> The BNP will try to use the issue to gain new support.



Never!


----------



## audiotech (May 14, 2007)

It was all so simpler . They marched, then got battered around the houses. 

in three parts


----------



## Das Uberdog (May 14, 2007)

MC5 in response to treelover said:
			
		

> Respect also beat the Greens in 24 out of 25 wards in which they competed. Meaningless?



Not to mention MC5, that much of the reason we fielded less candidates was because in mahor cities like London and the borough of Tower Hamlets in particular, there weren't any council elections!

Duuuuh!


----------



## lewislewis (May 14, 2007)

taffboy gwyrdd said:
			
		

> Bit meaningless becuase both Respect and UKIP will have targetted more, fielding less candidates overall.
> 
> There is no denying the nazi vote wasnt bad, and that their strategy and Griffens analysis is astute. Griffen is right that local politics fails to reach out beyond core votes. As someone who ran for The Greens I witnessed this.
> 
> ...



It's true, honest parties that want to be an alternative to the 'Big Three' have to get their people out, convince people to vote. It is no coincidence that all the seats held by Plaid Cymru in Wales or where there was a big Plaid challenge, had the biggest turn-outs in Wales this year.

I'd imagine the Greens would produce similar results if they ever held office at such a high level (and presumably other left parties including respect), because people outside the usual 3 parties are less managerial and more ideological, and more passionate about politics. If such people become councillors or Assembly Members or MPs, more people will turn out to vote for them.

I can't see the BNP producing any astute candidates that will inspire loyalty from the voters at the moment, but if they get more organised and educated they might well build beyond the level of protest voting.


----------



## nino_savatte (May 15, 2007)

dash_two said:
			
		

> Let's have a look through the round window today, shall we?
> 
> For starters, a recent Sunday Times YouGov poll found that:
> 
> ...



These assumptions are based on ignorance. Furthermore, polls are not scientific and they can be easily manipulated. Yougov, huh?  

Your idea is to pander to the BNP by doing their job for them..your solution to the BNP is to end immigration - it's lazy thinking that is the product of a mind that is locked into a binary mode of operation. And who are these "immigrants" that you are so concerned about? I wonder....

Immigration controls are based on xenophobia and racism. The BNP is both xenophobic and racist. Playing their game is short-sighted and dangerous.

Take your patronising guff and stick it where the sun doesn't shine.


----------



## nino_savatte (May 15, 2007)

dash_two said:
			
		

> I hear his unicycle drawing nigh



An attempt at wit? Fucking dire, like your crackpot ideas of pandering to the BNP's wishes. Spoken like a true circus freak.


----------



## nino_savatte (May 15, 2007)

treelover said:
			
		

> a sharp riposte to the witchfinder general, Dash Two,



The bearded lady runs to the freak's rescue. It was hardly a "sharp riposte". It was a piss poor attempt at wit and nothing else.


----------



## KeyboardJockey (May 15, 2007)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> I can't see the BNP producing any astute candidates that will inspire loyalty from the voters at the moment, but if they get more organised and educated they might well build beyond the level of protest voting.



Not wishing to throw a jeremid into he debate but I reckon the bnp is looking at getting candidates of a calibre that will pull in the daily mail reader and the excluded underclass.  Then we will really have to worry.   If that happens then I'm on the first available plane out. 

If they get a foothold in the commons in FPTP then they will build on that.


----------



## dash_two (May 15, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> These assumptions are based on ignorance. Furthermore, polls are not scientific and they can be easily manipulated. Yougov, huh?



Ahhhh yesssss, polls are always rubbish when they come up with results we can't handle, and always reliable and valid when they confirm our view of the world!


----------



## nino_savatte (May 15, 2007)

dash_two said:
			
		

> Ahhhh yesssss, polls are always rubbish when they come up with results we can't handle, and always reliable and valid when they confirm our view of the world!



The data can be manipulated and explained, in a particular way, to lend weight to a particular argument or narrative.

Yours is the product of lazy thinking and binarist assumptions.


----------



## dash_two (May 15, 2007)

KeyboardJockey said:
			
		

> I reckon the bnp is looking at getting candidates of a calibre that will pull in the daily mail reader



They seem to be doing that very consciously, crawling up Melanie Phillips' doubtless tight backside for a start.


----------



## nino_savatte (May 15, 2007)

*dash two's 'solution'*

The BNP are picking up council seats. Solution? End immigration.

Fucking lazy thinking or what?


----------



## dash_two (May 15, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> The data can be manipulated and explained, in a particular way, to lend weight to a particular argument or narrative.
> 
> Yours is the product of lazy thinking and binarist assumptions.



So, before you start squirting me in the face with that big plastic flower attached to your outsized lapel, explain how to me how those poll results have been manipulated.


----------



## nino_savatte (May 15, 2007)

dash_two said:
			
		

> So, before you start squirting me in the face with that big plastic flower attached to your outsized lapel, explain how to me how those poll results have been manipulated.



Ah, more nonsense. Before I do anything, how about you explain your lazy thinking with regards to the BNP and immigration?


----------



## dash_two (May 15, 2007)

I asked first!


----------



## nino_savatte (May 15, 2007)

Come on, dash...how does ending immigration do anything but pander to the BNP (a minority party)? Hmmmmm?


----------



## nino_savatte (May 15, 2007)

dash_two said:
			
		

> I asked first!



You came out with the preposterous notion that the BNP could be 'tackled' by "ending immigration". It seems to me that it is you who has some explaining to do.


----------



## KeyboardJockey (May 15, 2007)

dash_two said:
			
		

> They seem to be doing that very consciously, crawling up Melanie Phillips' doubtless tight backside for a start.



Surely you are not suggesting that Mad Mel would be persuaded to be a public supporter of the bnp!!??  If that happened at least it would spell the end of her frankly barking column.

More likley they are going to pick their candidates more carefully to make them more respectable. 

Bnp have realised that there is a sheaf of votes to be garnered by publicly dropping the knuckledraggers and appealing to the normal patriotic voter so that they can be ready to pick up their votes when the next islamofacist* atrocity happens or when the enonomy wobbles due to fuel issues.



*Islamofacists ae the nutjobs not the ordinary muslims.


----------



## dash_two (May 15, 2007)

Sorry, nino, but I got in there first with the question about the poll results. You make a good go at answering that and then I'll answer your question above as best I can.


----------



## KeyboardJockey (May 15, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> You came out with the preposterous notion that the BNP could be 'tackled' by "ending immigration". It seems to me that it is you who has some explaining to do.



Maybe not by ending immigration but it can't be denied that it is an issue that chimes negatively with many voters but by cutting the bnp off at the root by tackling access to housing and prioriting sons and daughters.  Do this and taking away the main cause of the fash support and a lot of the bnp will wither on the vine.


----------



## nino_savatte (May 15, 2007)

dash_two said:
			
		

> Sorry, nino, but I got in there first with the question about the poll results. You make a good go at answering that and then I'll answer your question above as best I can.



You're not in the school playground now, son. You're the one who came out with the notion that the BNP could be 'tackled' by ending immigration.

You also realise that the BNP support forced repatriation too, don't you? What's your position on that? 


This should be interesting


----------



## dash_two (May 15, 2007)

KeyboardJockey said:
			
		

> Surely you are not suggesting that Mad Mel would be persuaded to be a public supporter of the bnp!!??



No, I don't think there's any chance of that. But they're keen to point to mainstream media figures and say 'That's just what we're saying, well done!' All part of a strategy of normalisation. Also, trying not to appear anti-semitic is important to them.


----------



## nino_savatte (May 15, 2007)

KeyboardJockey said:
			
		

> Maybe not by ending immigration but it can't be denied that it is an issue that chimes negatively with many voters but by cutting the bnp off at the root by tackling access to housing and prioriting sons and daughters.  Do this and taking away the main cause of the fash support and a lot of the bnp will wither on the vine.


]

The trouble is, those who bleat on about immigration and how it "panders to the BNP" overlook some salient facts, such as the 500 Britons who leave this country everyday for a better life elsewhere. we constantly hear the tabloids and others crap on about "mass migration" but I have seen no evidence for "mass migration".

There are better ways to tackle the BNP than to mimic their policies and their attitudes.


----------



## dash_two (May 15, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> You're not in the school playground now, son.



I'll leave you in the position of expert on what goes on in school playgrounds. You probably hang around enough of them.


----------



## KeyboardJockey (May 15, 2007)

dash_two said:
			
		

> No, I don't think there's any chance of that. But they're keen to point to mainstream media figures and say 'That's just what we're saying, well done!' All part of a strategy of normalisation. Also, trying not to appear anti-semitic is important to them.



If Mad Mel supports the bnp then maybe she will lose her Jewish Chronicle  column which would be a bonus.  I know that the bnp boneheads are antisemitic I've fucking heard them but they need to hide this to convince middle england.


----------



## nino_savatte (May 15, 2007)

dash_two said:
			
		

> I'll leave you in the position of expert on what goes on in school playgrounds. You probably hang around enough of them.



Not a very good comeback, dash. You're the one who came out with the "I said it first" line. 

I'll take this as another example of your intellectual cowardice. 

Oh and suggesting that I "hang around playgrounds" sounds suspiciously as though you are suggesting something else. I suggest you retract that statement, lest you be accused of accusing me of paedophilia.


----------



## KeyboardJockey (May 15, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> ]
> 
> The trouble is, those who bleat on about immigration and how it "panders to the BNP" overlook some salient facts, such as the 500 Britons who leave this country everyday for a better life elsewhere. we constantly hear the tabloids and others crap on about "mass migration" but I have seen no evidence for "mass migration".
> 
> There are better ways to tackle the BNP than to mimic their policies and their attitudes.



Providing a socialist alternative seems to be failing though.

Prioriting locals (whatever their colour and creed ) for  housing would at least remove one of the bnps main campaigning strategies and leave them exposed as the wankers they are.


----------



## nino_savatte (May 15, 2007)

KeyboardJockey said:
			
		

> Providing a socialist alternative seems to be failing though.
> 
> Prioriting locals (whatever their colour and creed ) for  housing would at least remove one of the bnps main campaigning strategies and leave them exposed as the wankers they are.



dash_two is suggesting that we end immigration; that is lazy thinking that can only pander to the far right. As far as housing goes, this is an issue that goes beyond the politics of hatred. The Thatcher government sold off council homes and forbade local authorities from building any more. The housing currently being built is not for those on low incomes but those who want to get onto the "property ladder".


----------



## dash_two (May 15, 2007)

KeyboardJockey said:
			
		

> If Mad Mel supports the bnp then maybe she will lose her Jewish Chronicle  column which would be a bonus.  I know that the bnp boneheads are antisemitic I've fucking heard them but they need to hide this to convince middle england.



Also, they see the Muslim issue as a huge long-term opportunity for them. It's a case of the more intelligent and lucid members telling their fellows to put their various hobbyhorses (race and IQ, Jewish conspiracies etc) to one side and 'Keep your eye on the ball'.

A good article by Jeremy Seabrook appeared in the Guardian in 2004. Seabrook is a glass-half-empty sort of man, but he develops an argument saying there are parallels between the position of Muslims in Britain today and that of Catholics in England in the 18th century. 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1207467,00.html


----------



## KeyboardJockey (May 15, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> dash_two is suggesting that we end immigration; that is lazy thinking that can only pander to the far right. As far as housing goes, this is an issue that goes beyond the politics of hatred. The Thatcher government sold off council homes and forbade local authorities from building any more. The housing currently being built is not for those on low incomes but those who want to get onto the "property ladder".



The problem is by the time a left govt has built enough houses to make up the shortfall the bnp would have exploited this lack of houses and would probably be  in a very powerful position. 

The only way to stop the bnp growing while increasing the housing stock is to bring back a modified sons and daughters poliicy.


----------



## KeyboardJockey (May 15, 2007)

dash_two said:
			
		

> Also, they see the Muslim issue as a huge long-term opportunity for them. It's a case of the more intelligent and lucid members telling their fellows to put their various hobbyhorses (race and IQ, Jewish conspiracies etc) to one side and 'Keep your eye on the ball'.
> 
> A good article by Jeremy Seabrook appeared in the Guardian in 2004. Seabrook is a glass-half-empty sort of man, but he develops an argument saying there are parallels between the position of Muslims in Britain today and that of Catholics in England in the 18th century.
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1207467,00.html



Spot on.  There are parallels between the Islamofash who want to impose muslim rule throughout the world and the ultra catholics who wanted to reconvert england.  Both want to impose alien theocracies by force.  

You are right the muslim issue is a huge future vote winner for the bnp.


----------



## nino_savatte (May 15, 2007)

KeyboardJockey said:
			
		

> The problem is by the time a left govt has built enough houses to make up the shortfall the bnp would have exploited this lack of houses and would probably be  in a very powerful position.
> 
> The only way to stop the bnp growing while increasing the housing stock is to bring back a modified sons and daughters poliicy.



Sure but you cannot deny that there is a serious amount of scapegoating going on. The BNP are exploiting it and others are trying to mimic them to steal their votes. I don't see any real solutions apart from building more social housing.


----------



## nino_savatte (May 15, 2007)

KeyboardJockey said:
			
		

> Spot on.  There are parallels between the Islamofash who want to impose muslim rule throughout the world and the ultra catholics who wanted to reconvert england.  Both want to impose alien theocracies by force.
> 
> You are right the muslim issue is a huge future vote winner for the bnp.



These so-called "Islamo-fascists" (an Americanism and wholly incorrect) are in a minority. Yet, what I tend to find is that Muslims are given the broad brush treatment; in other words, as far as many on this forum are concerned, they are evil and hellbent on our destruction.


----------



## dash_two (May 15, 2007)

KeyboardJockey said:
			
		

> Spot on.  There are parallels between the Islamofash who want to impose muslim rule throughout the world and the ultra catholics who wanted to reconvert england.  Both want to impose alien theocracies by force.



True, but it is not just about what Islamist nutters stand for. It is that Muslims as a whole make a very convenient 'outsider' group to target and stoke up fear against. There are all sorts of reasons from the BNP perspective why Pakistani and Bangladeshi Muslims fit the bill much better than, say, Caribbeans or Africans or Sikhs or Chinese.


----------



## KeyboardJockey (May 15, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> Sure but you cannot deny that there is a serious amount of scapegoating going on. The BNP are exploiting it and others are trying to mimic them to steal their votes. I don't see any real solutions apart from building more social housing.



Of course there is scapegoating but by the time the houses are built the bnp will have got even more support.


----------



## KeyboardJockey (May 15, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> These so-called "Islamo-fascists" (an Americanism and wholly incorrect) are in a minority. Yet, what I tend to find is that Muslims are given the broad brush treatment; in other words, as far as many on this forum are concerned, they are evil and hellbent on our destruction.



Yup I agree that the Islamofash are in a minority.  I didn't say that Islamofash were in a majority.  I dislike the way that Respect are chasing conservative islamic votes personally I don't think that is any way for a party that calls itself socialist to behave.


----------



## KeyboardJockey (May 15, 2007)

dash_two said:
			
		

> True, but it is not just about what Islamist nutters stand for. It is that Muslims as a whole make a very convenient 'outsider' group to target and stoke up fear against. There are all sorts of reasons from the BNP perspective why Pakistani and Bangladeshi Muslims fit the bill much better than, say, Caribbeans or Africans or Sikhs or Chinese.



Agree there I should have made myself more clear.


----------



## JimPage (May 15, 2007)

KeyboardJockey said:
			
		

> Providing a socialist alternative seems to be failing though.
> 
> Prioriting locals (whatever their colour and creed ) for  housing would at least remove one of the bnps main campaigning strategies and leave them exposed as the wankers they are.



in areas like barking, in means maintaining a mainly white area in a multiracial london, which isnt acceptable on any level. why should locals be prioritised, over, say asylum seekers- who have an equal right to live in barking as so called locals


----------



## JimPage (May 15, 2007)

becky p said:
			
		

> Its fairly obvious to most people that immigration is a major issue. The BNP will try to use the issue to gain new support.The kind of support far right parties have in countries like France and Italy.
> I dont think ignoring the issue will do any good. But the issue has to be tackled sensitively.



what do you mean "sensitively". opponents of open borders need to be ruthlessly crushed


----------



## KeyboardJockey (May 15, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> in areas like barking, in means maintaining a mainly white area in a multiracial london, which isnt acceptable on any level. why should locals be prioritised, over, say asylum seekers- who have an equal right to live in barking as so called locals



Not everyone in Barking and Dagenham is white never has been.   I didn't say that ALL housing should be sons and daughters there should be space for allocation on a needs basis.  What is angering people in b and d is the perception that people who haven't contributed to the country are benefiting from it and the bnp is exploiting that anger.  I think that if you lance that boil then it will buy political breathing space.   Asylum seekers can still be supported but not in the current manner.


----------



## KeyboardJockey (May 15, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> what do you mean "sensitively". opponents of open borders need to be ruthlessly crushed



Open Borders is as mentalist a philosphy as anything dreamed up by David Icke and the Lizard Lickers. 

Pushing the idea of OB is probably one of the greatest mistakes that the left makes as it feeds the bnp and allows them to say to their potential constituents 'look these lefties don't care about you they only care about destroying our country with these others'.  I know its bollocks you know its bollocks but it feeds the bnp.

Fair immigration policies are a good thing, being a haven for the oppressed is a good thing as all these can be sold as reasonable.  Open borders is not reasonable and would be rejected if put to a democratic vote.


----------



## dash_two (May 15, 2007)

I'm not sure how literally proponents of 'open borders' mean what they say. Do they mean there should really be no limits on who and how many can come to settle here, beyond those imposed by availability of work and price of housing? Like moving house from Bristol to Manchester, say?

Is it to be completely unilateral or something which is to be negotiated in reciprocal arrangements with other countries?


----------



## KeyboardJockey (May 15, 2007)

dash_two said:
			
		

> I'm not sure how literally proponents of 'open borders' mean what they say. Do they mean there should really be no limits on who and how many can come to settle here, beyond those imposed by availability of work and price of housing? Like moving house from Bristol to Manchester, say?



I get the impression the the OB proponents want absolute free movement.


----------



## dash_two (May 15, 2007)

It's a nice idea. Wrong planet though.


----------



## KeyboardJockey (May 15, 2007)

dash_two said:
			
		

> It's a nice idea. Wrong planet though.



Yup.  One for planet Hippiefluff not for planet earth.


----------



## dash_two (May 15, 2007)

KeyboardJockey, you mentioned earlier you would like to see a fair immigration system. What do you think that should look be like?


----------



## KeyboardJockey (May 15, 2007)

dash_two said:
			
		

> KeyboardJockey, you mentioned earlier you would like to see a fair immigration system. What do you think that should look be like?



A proper well resourced asylum system with access to FCO information and staff who understand the countries where people are coming from. Honest information about why people are coming to UK. 

Prioritising those immigrants with skills the UK needs

An end to the fast tracks for the rich 

Better resourced visa application system.

Consistent immigration decisions. At present decision making is highly inconsistent. Published information on what the decision are and the criteria they are made under. 

Swift removal of those who overstay visas, make false claims, commit crimes etc while on temporary leave to remain in UK. 

Less intrusive procedures for those wishing to join immediate family in UK. 

A fair mix of protection for the UK and help for those who need it.


----------



## dash_two (May 15, 2007)

Thanks for that, sensible and humane stuff KJ. I can't add much to that beyond a preference for a quota system set well below the current 185,000+ net annual figure and an emphasis on not importing cheap labour to compete with the unskilled and semiskilled, as they are the most vulnerable to competition for economic resources.


----------



## KeyboardJockey (May 15, 2007)

dash_two said:
			
		

> Thanks for that, sensible and humane stuff KJ. I can't add much to that beyond a preference for a quota system set well below the current 185,000+ net annual figure and an emphasis on not importing cheap labour to compete with the unskilled and semiskilled, as they are the most vulnerable to competition for economic resources.




Agree with that as well.  A published figure and a ban on bringing in cheap labour to undercut British workers would be a good start.  If people see effective enforcement against imported crims and wastrels then they will be more likely to back an expansion of giving asylum help.


----------



## JimPage (May 15, 2007)

KeyboardJockey said:
			
		

> Agree with that as well.  A published figure and a ban on bringing in cheap labour to undercut British workers would be a good start.  .



but this isnt happenning, as you full well know. foreign labour is not undercutting so called "british" workers. the only people who say it is is the BNP and their fellow travllers


----------



## KeyboardJockey (May 15, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> but this isnt happenning, as you full well know. foreign labour is not undercutting so called "british" workers. the only people who say it is is the BNP and their fellow travllers



This info is not just coming from bnp and their fellow travellers I'm afraid.  Family members in the building trade are being priced out of jobs.  An old school friend who is working for a company approached his boss for a rise and was told 'shut up about that or you will be replaced by poles'

This is happening and closing your eyes to something doesn't make it go away.

BTW when I say British workers I don't just mean white people if that was what you were trying to insinuate by your use of quote marks I mean everyone who is a citizen here and who has a right to work.


----------



## durruti02 (May 15, 2007)

taffboy gwyrdd said:
			
		

> Despite the semi-flattering things I said upthread about the Cylops Fuhrers analysis, it must be said that the BNP will always fail to successfully build while the majority of their councillors are completely shit.
> 
> For everyone that gets elected, there's generally one elsewhere getting booted out for being inept or lazy.
> 
> It's no mystery, why would a bunch of race-obsessed criminals be anygood at handling issues like road safety, planning, benefits, drains and dogshit issues that are the day to day reality for life as a councillor?



i think this is right but this is precisely what griffin wants to get over 

and we have been here before .. back in the 8ts harrington tried to move the NF to what griffin is doing today ... the only ever picked up a bit of support in havering ( i think) and hillingdon ( i think) .. esentially the hard core were not interested .. and indeed physically attacked harringtons group ( Third Way) 

 i suspect that is still the same today with the bnp  .. it would be like trying to get the swp to commit to become community activists!! ) .. but worse 

what worries me is that he may have watered down the racism enough ( superficially or otherwise) that he will attract a new type to the BNP who will be able to carry out this strategy maybe who would have joined the lib dems or tories


----------



## durruti02 (May 15, 2007)

KeyboardJockey said:
			
		

> Having observed the bnp at very close  quarters I would  say that they are beginning to learn the lessons of having idiots in electoral  positions.  They are just starting to get intellegent candidates and this may well be a sorting the wheat from the chaff situation where the more intellegent racists can grap their place in the ascendancy within th eparty.
> 
> This is the point in which to worry.  A party made up of knuckledraggers is something you can take the piss out of but a party t hat is working for a wider appeal is much more dangerous.



well there you go! .. that was what i was going to ask kj .. but 2 posts on !!


----------



## durruti02 (May 15, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> THe institute of race relations published some research which said that pandering to racist/anti migration parties actually INCREASED their vote... SO the lesson is....



pandering in what way?? 

a pro w/c position would be to at least first discuss immigration( SHOCK!)  then defend immigrants and critically to attack the spivs who employ them ... many of whom i suspect are in the same sea as the m/c who are voting BNP

what is lacking attica is surely a w/c position on immigration .. it is that absence that is the problem surely?


----------



## durruti02 (May 15, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> It was all so simpler . They marched, then got battered around the houses.
> 
> in three parts



so why does that strategy no longer work? and why indeed have the key activists around that strategy (AFA) rejected it?? times change MC


----------



## durruti02 (May 15, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> in areas like barking, in means maintaining a mainly white area in a multiracial london, which isnt acceptable on any level. why should locals be prioritised, over, say asylum seekers- who have an equal right to live in barking as so called locals



jim why does an asylum seeker ( or more to the point an economic migrant) have 'an equal right' ?


----------



## durruti02 (May 15, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> but this isnt happenning, as you full well know. foreign labour is not undercutting so called "british" workers. the only people who say it is is the BNP and their fellow travllers



that is just not true is it!! it has at the very least held down wages .. did you read this that knotted posted up yet?

Numbers vs. Rights: Trade-offs and guest worker programmes

http://www.compas.ox.ac.uk/publications/Working papers/WP0640-Ruhs-Martin.pdf


----------



## The Black Hand (May 15, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> that is just not true is it!! it has at the very least held down wages .. did you read this that knotted posted up yet?
> 
> Numbers vs. Rights: Trade-offs and guest worker programmes
> 
> http://www.compas.ox.ac.uk/publications/Working papers/WP0640-Ruhs-Martin.pdf




*Of course it is undercutting wages.* Many British people do not want to work for the minimum wage, and so haven't taken the jobs. 500K have come in from Europe esp. Poland and taken those jobs. The bosses needed to create a low wage economy, high job turnover, short term/no contracts, and they couldn't do this cos of the racalcitrant unemployed, disappeared, informal economy, and disabled workers... 

Therefore Europe had to liberalise its people borders which de facto disciplines the workforces across Europe already in jobs. The struggles to come in France are going to be very interesting as a right winger takes on the unionised working class in order to restructure the economy... Any bells ringing there???


----------



## audiotech (May 15, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> so why does that strategy no longer work? and why indeed have the key activists around that strategy (AFA) rejected it?? times change MC



It was a bit of history and I pointed out how simple it was back then for anti-fascists. I wasn't arguing now for a tactic of opposing them on the streets when they are obviously not marching on said streets. 

AFA eventually realised something that most anti-fascist activists had sussed out a long time before their "key activists" anyway.  

Of course that may change. Afterall, a core strategy of fascism is control of the streets.


----------



## audiotech (May 15, 2007)

Relying on some anecdotal rambling about a some "mate" who has been told by "his boss" that if he doesn't accept such and such then this will happen (as some posters do) is just being bone idle and dangerous. More concrete evidence suggests something else is happening in the labour market.

A major survey of employers has just taken place, one that has been reported in the financial press only this week. It indicates growing concerns over labour shortages across the board. Nearly 50 percent of businesses surveyed said that it was becoming increasingly difficult to fill vacancies.

Now, this evidence can surely give a shot in the arm to workers as it indicates that they have the upper hand in negotiations don't they?

Challenge your boss who threatens you with employing a Polish worker on less pay, because he is more than likely bullshitting. It is like when British Gas used to go around trying to get people to change their supplier by saying they were British owned and all the others were foreign - they lied.  

The conclusions of the survey stated that the recent influx of migrants had slowed the growth of wages (*not undercut them*) and had put off an explosion in wage demands (that employers had expected) due to recent rises in the cost of living.

This is *important* and one that needs to be *understood* not only when talking about immigration, but also when you're faced over the table in negotiations with some twat in a suit telling you to accept without question the bullshit coming from his gob.

Let's also not forget that businesses are deliberately pushing up their prices now.


----------



## audiotech (May 15, 2007)

KeyboardJockey said:
			
		

> Agree with that as well.  A published figure and a ban on bringing in cheap labour to undercut British workers would be a good start.  If people see effective enforcement against imported crims and wastrels then they will be more likely to back an expansion of giving asylum help.



You call yourself a trade unionist. Pah!

You sir are an idiot and have swallowed hook line and sinker the fascist bollocks that you duplicate, along with your cohorts on here.


----------



## Streathamite (May 15, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> but this isnt happenning, as you full well know. foreign labour is not undercutting so called "british" workers. the only people who say it is is the BNP and their fellow travllers


I'm sorry but you couldn't be more misinformed (as one would expect from someone naive and deluded to be a WESPECK acolyte). There is a near-universal consensus within the recruitment and staffing industry that in the bluecollar, casual, low-skill white collar catering and leisure industries that wages have been kept very lowe, and employers given a huge licence to act as they wish, by the arrival of large amounts of cheap, willing labour from overseas.
Personally, I'd say that whole industry sector, manned entirely by people who talk jobs all day long, are in a far better position to form a viewk, than you.
I also work in recruitment (albeit in a high-end 'permanent' sector), and so, assuredly, do I!
And I can guarantee you that the HR depts of the major organisations have planed their strategy and policies around this state of affairs continuing (in fact one HR director for a large catering & hospitality organisation told me himself it was the best thing to happen to his outfit's margins for years, given that catering is high turnover, low margins.
It is simple supply and demand, and the fact that if you give a large corporation means and motive to dick the workforce, they'll take it.
I suggest you check your facts a little more carefully


----------



## KeyboardJockey (May 15, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> You call yourself a trade unionist. Pah!
> 
> You sir are an idiot and have swallowed hook line and sinker the fascist bollocks that you duplicate, along with your cohorts on here.



Its happening not in the vast amounts that those in the extreme right would have people believe but it's happening enough to have an affect and for accusatioins and complaints of 'job taking' by the fash to be taken up. The building industry for instance is a case in point.   

It is because of there being an element of truth in the job taking line that the bnp are getting a hearing.

I don't see what is wrong with protecting British workers first if the left doesn't then the right will or will appear to to gain support.  After all there have been campaigns to prevent British call centre work being transferred overseas? whats the difference?

I don't swallow any fascist bollocks but a lot of people are, far more than those on the left would like to think.

The next few years will be the lefts 'last chance saloon' with respect (no pun intended) to deal with the bnp.  If the left can head the bnp off at the pass by saying they will protect UK workers then a whole lot of people can be won away from the bnp.   This doesn't preclude internationalist actions just a change of focus to those the unions were set up for.


----------



## audiotech (May 15, 2007)

KeyboardJockey said:
			
		

> Its happening not in the vast amounts that those in the extreme right would have people believe but it's happening enough to have an affect and for accusatioins and complaints of 'job taking' by the fash to be taken up. The building industry for instance is a case in point.
> 
> It is because of there being an element of truth in the job taking line that the bnp are getting a hearing.
> 
> ...



The building industry being a case in point? Nonsense. It is growing at a pace and will continue to in the foreseeable future.



> UK Construction Industry
> 
> The industry over the past 7 years has had the most sustained period of growth in decades. The industry’s key resources are its people & skills, therefore the pay & conditions package of the workforce is a key factor in the development of the industry.
> 
> ...



As for the rest of your post? Scared rabbit stuff with you paralysed by the headlights of the BNP. So scared you adopt their ideas.


----------



## becky p (May 15, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> These assumptions are based on ignorance. Furthermore, polls are not scientific and they can be easily manipulated. Yougov, huh?
> 
> Your idea is to pander to the BNP by doing their job for them..your solution to the BNP is to end immigration - it's lazy thinking that is the product of a mind that is locked into a binary mode of operation. And who are these "immigrants" that you are so concerned about? I wonder....
> 
> ...



So in other words unless polls and evidence indicate that everything you say is right,they can be discounted. 

Accusing people of being racist and playing the BNPs game,when they question immigration, seems to be a great way of helping the BNP.


----------



## The Black Hand (May 15, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> The building industry being a case in point? Nonsense. It is growing at a pace and will continue to in the foreseeable future.
> 
> As for the rest of your post? Scared rabbit stuff with you paralysed by the headlights of the BNP. So scared you adopt their ideas.



I am not convinced, you are painting a rosy picture of the booming UK economy which has growth that more than absorbs the increased supply of workers. As you know the simple rule of supply and demand, more workers looking for work depresses wages. I am not sure if it is you or me who is being the new Adam Smith.  

Certainly both trends are in evidence, but the dominant tendency is the creation of a low wage economy - or 'Netto wages for Netto prices'. The growing polarisation of the rich from the poor means that this low wage sector is growing. I don't accept your version (higher wages - bigger middling section of society) which goes against concrete research that has already demonstrated the growing polarisation (lower wages - poverty pay).


----------



## LLETSA (May 16, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> so why does that strategy no longer work? and why indeed have the key activists around that strategy (AFA) rejected it?? times change MC





Why let that get in the way of a good wank?


----------



## The Black Hand (May 16, 2007)

LLETSA said:
			
		

> Why let that get in the way of a good wank?



Each to their own


----------



## treelover (May 16, 2007)

No replies then, Trotbots, watch that plane come down in flames...  




> I'm sorry but you couldn't be more misinformed (as one would expect from someone naive and deluded to be a WESPECK acolyte). There is a near-universal consensus within the recruitment and staffing industry that in the bluecollar, casual, low-skill white collar catering and leisure industries that wages have been kept very lowe, and employers given a huge licence to act as they wish, by the arrival of large amounts of cheap, willing labour from overseas.
> Personally, I'd say that whole industry sector, manned entirely by people who talk jobs all day long, are in a far better position to form a viewk, than you.
> I also work in recruitment (albeit in a high-end 'permanent' sector), and so, assuredly, do I!
> And I can guarantee you that the HR depts of the major organisations have planed their strategy and policies around this state of affairs continuing (in fact one HR director for a large catering & hospitality organisation told me himself it was the best thing to happen to his outfit's margins for years, given that catering is high turnover, low margins.
> ...


----------



## dash_two (May 16, 2007)

Article dated May 2007 about a report into wages and immigration commissioned by the Low Pay Unit and carried out by University College London:



> The report goes on to say that although the arrival of economic migrants has benefited workers in the middle and upper part of the wage distribution, immigration has placed downward pressure on the wages of workers in receipt of lower levels of pay.



http://www.ucl.ac.uk/media/library/immigration


----------



## nino_savatte (May 16, 2007)

KeyboardJockey said:
			
		

> Of course there is scapegoating but by the time the houses are built the bnp will have got even more support.



Well, there are a couple of issues here that have, thus far, been dismissed out of hand by the hardline anti-immigrationists: the first, is that aping the BNP's stance on immigration is a very dangerous game to play. The second, is that when one talks about the "working class", one tends to mean "white working class" and, even with that phrase, there is a problematic, because it presumes that all working class people have similar thoughts and beliefs on a range of issues, namely immigration. it also overlooks the fact that many so-called working class people draw down incomes that are comparable to City salaries.

This is political expediency, nothing more and nothing less. If my finger hurts, do I cut off my hand to relieve the pain? No.


----------



## nino_savatte (May 16, 2007)

treelover said:
			
		

> No replies then, Trotbots, watch that plane come down in flames...



Quoting your own posts again, eh treelover?


----------



## Darios (May 16, 2007)

KeyboardJockey said:
			
		

> If people see effective enforcement against imported crims and wastrels then they will be more likely to back an expansion of giving asylum help.



What about effective enforcement against *home grown* crims and wastrels?


----------



## KeyboardJockey (May 16, 2007)

Darios said:
			
		

> What about effective enforcement against *home grown* crims and wastrels?



Oh that as well. There are loads of people who are capable and free to work and contribute to society who don't. I'm less concerned with those who claim benefits but putsomething back into their local community (loads of people claim but do good works for their local community or are carers etc etc) what I object to is people who claim benefits and just spend their time lounging round and or making life miserable for others.    Plus an increase in the minimum wage would help  to encourage people back to work.   

By the way I'm not trying to say deserving or underserving poor here I'm just saying target those who take from the state and community but a) don't put anything back and b) take the piss c) cause trouble in their area.


----------



## nino_savatte (May 16, 2007)

Darios said:
			
		

> What about effective enforcement against *home grown* crims and wastrels?




Innit? This lot thinks that there is some vast network of crims who want to come here and take advantage of our 'generous' benefits system.

Then there's the foreign paedophile argument; none of these arguments holds water and it would appear that this is the line adopted by the far right to lend 'weight' to their 'argument'. It's easier to smear people than to tell the truth.


----------



## nino_savatte (May 16, 2007)

dash_two said:
			
		

> Let's have a look through the round window today, shall we?
> 
> For starters, a recent Sunday Times YouGov poll found that:
> 
> ...



I'm afraid that none of this supports your position nor do polls, in themselves mean a great deal. 

Do you know how polls, such as this and others, are conducted? Do you know how questions are written and how and in which order they are placed? How about the commissioner of polls, do you know much about them?

On another day, you'd probably take a pop at Yougov but here, you sing their praises. Did you look at the Telegraph 'poll'? I don;t think you did, it was actually an article about Blair's tenure of office that was based on the results of a poll...conducted by the_ Daily Telegraph._

Do you understand what a "narrative" is?

Back to clown school with you, your culinary skills suck.


----------



## dash_two (May 16, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> Did you look at the Telegraph 'poll'? I don;t think you did, it was actually an article about Blair's tenure of office that was based on the results of a poll...conducted by the_ Daily Telegraph._



The Daily Telegraph did not conduct the poll.




			
				Daily Telegraph said:
			
		

> YouGov repeated the question last week in its survey for The Daily Telegraph and the results are devastating.



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/04/30/nblairdec30.xml


----------



## nino_savatte (May 16, 2007)

dash_two said:
			
		

> The Daily Telegraph did not conduct the poll.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/04/30/nblairdec30.xml



No matter, polls are what they are: they are commissioned and constructed with the intention of achieving a particular outcome; that is to say, they are not ideologically neutral.


----------



## dash_two (May 16, 2007)

Me: You're wrong.

Nino: No matter.

Blissful stuff. Nino, things might look all rosy from inside Mung Bean Wholefoods ("a workers co-op") or the Aquarius Housing Association or whatever other modern-day equivalent of the Society for Distressed Gentlefolk you benefit from. But trust me, most people don't want high levels of immigration.

Here's another hopelessly biased and distorted poll on the subject, carried out by Ipsos MORI for the Sunday Times in August 2006:



> *Public wants much harsher immigration policy, says poll*
> 
> The research reveals that opinion on immigration is hardening dramatically, with three-quarters of the population calling for far stricter limits on immigrant numbers.
> 
> ...



http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article614362.ece


----------



## nino_savatte (May 16, 2007)

dash_two said:
			
		

> Me: You're wrong.
> 
> Nino: No matter.
> 
> ...



That's a nice clown costume you're wearing. Do you ever post anything that doesn't contain insults?

Funny how none of you ever comment on the 500 Britons who leave this country every day. For you lot, it's all one way traffic and as far as debate is concerned, there is none: you've seen to that.

Over to you, shit-for-brains.


----------



## nino_savatte (May 16, 2007)

So, dash, what seems to be your problem? You can't conduct yourself in a civil fashion, nor do you seem able to comprehend the fact that you are pandering to the BNP with your bizarre ideas of ending immigration. If my hand hurts, do I cut off my arm to relieve the pain? This appears to be your solution: "the BNP are against immigration, so let's end it, once and for all".

By saying "It isn't racist to be concerned about immigration" you hijack the discourse and shut down any opposing points of view. Not very helpful, is it? But that is how you and those who share your views conduct yourselves on this forum. To whit, you dominate this forum with your stance on immigration and get defensive when challenged. My position is a minority one, that doesn't necessarily mean it is wrong, but then your position isn't necessarily correct either.

There is no debate on this issue because of the reasons that I've outlined nor do any of you want a debate.


----------



## dash_two (May 16, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> There is no debate on this issue because of the reasons that I've outlined nor do any of you want a debate.



It's a cruel, hard world.


----------



## nino_savatte (May 16, 2007)

dash_two said:
			
		

> It's a cruel, hard world.



Is that the best you can do? You and your pals have controlled the discourse on this issue and your reply proves my point.

What's the matter? Don't you like having your views challenged? Of course not, that would mean that you'd have to defend them without resorting to underhand tactics and an over-reliance on poll data.


----------



## JimPage (May 16, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> Of course that may change. Afterall, a core strategy of fascism is control of the streets.



it may have been in the 1980`s but hasnt been for 10 years now- regadless of whatever theory has to say on the matter


----------



## audiotech (May 16, 2007)

dash_two said:
			
		

> Article dated May 2007 about a report into wages and immigration commissioned by the Low Pay Unit and carried out by University College London:
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.ucl.ac.uk/media/library/immigration



That was a very selective quote. The full quote reads:



> The report goes on to say that although the arrival of economic migrants has benefited workers in the middle and upper part of the wage distribution, immigration has placed downward pressure on the wages of workers in receipt of lower levels of pay. *Over the period considered, wages at all points of the wage distribution increased in real terms, but wages in the lowest quarter would have increased quicker and wages further up the distribution would have risen more slowly if it were not for the effect of immigration. *



My emphasis.

So increases across the board. *No undercutting of wages as such.*


----------



## audiotech (May 16, 2007)

treelover said:
			
		

> No replies then, Trotbots, watch that plane come down in flames...



Because Red (pfft) Jezza posts bollocks that he makes up as he goes along to justify his reactionary bollocks.

He is afterall an ex-public schoolboy, so no suprise there on that score.


----------



## audiotech (May 16, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> it may have been in the 1980`s but hasnt been for 10 years now- regadless of whatever theory has to say on the matter



Their crazy gangs attempt to do that. Not very successfully it should be added.


----------



## audiotech (May 16, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> I am not convinced, you are painting a rosy picture of the booming UK economy which has growth that more than absorbs the increased supply of workers. As you know the simple rule of supply and demand, more workers looking for work depresses wages. I am not sure if it is you or me who is being the new Adam Smith.
> 
> Certainly both trends are in evidence, but the dominant tendency is the creation of a low wage economy - or 'Netto wages for Netto prices'. The growing polarisation of the rich from the poor means that this low wage sector is growing. I don't accept your version (higher wages - bigger middling section of society) which goes against concrete research that has already demonstrated the growing polarisation (lower wages - poverty pay).



I wasn't painting any picture. If anyone was it was Amicus.

Economic theory is notorious for being wrong on fundamentals - 'more workers looking for work depresses wages' is a case in point. As every report and every statistic out there at the moment states the opposite.

Furthermore, the report I cited above, that talks about nearly fifty percent of companies worried about the difficulties of filling vacancies due to *labour shortages* adds extra clout to that contradiction.

The principle player trying to depress wages at the moment is this labour Government trying to hold back public sector wage claims, which it is hoped will also affect other sectors of the economy.

Meanwhile, companies jack up their prices. Supermarkets seeing profits rise by 42 percent  is not going to make thier workforce very happy when they are expected to accept lower than inflation wage rises is it?

Where are these trends recorded which you refer to?


----------



## audiotech (May 16, 2007)

dash_two said:
			
		

> But trust me, most people don't want high levels of immigration.



Well, tell me, whose gonna wash their cars? Drive them to their destinations? Pick their vegetables? Process their food? Feed them? Serve them? Deliver their mail? Make them well? Look after their old folk? Build their houses? Work in their health service? Pay their pensions? Etc, etc.............................................................

Because with large labour gaps in the economy and an increasing ageing population, someone has to do these things?


----------



## audiotech (May 16, 2007)

Anyway, back to the title of this thread.  

Take a look at the guy in the suit attempting to hide his tatoos down at the count in Thurrock, along with the BNP's first ever councillor - the one and only Derek Beacon - who was caught on camera some time back giving a straight arm salute and featured on the front page of the Daily Mirror.

http://nazisarenobs.blogspot.com/



> ...one claim coming from their Brownhouse being that the antifascist vote could not stop the BNP as it "surges to 14% of the popular vote."
> 
> Let's not forger that in 2006, the BNP had a near whopping 19%, so that's actually a drop of 5%! Or have we missed the 50 new councillors the BNP won this time? The obvious answer being, no!


----------



## durruti02 (May 16, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> It was a bit of history and I pointed out how simple it was back then for anti-fascists. I wasn't arguing now for a tactic of opposing them on the streets when they are obviously not marching on said streets.
> 
> AFA eventually realised something that most anti-fascist activists had sussed out a long time before their "key activists" anyway.
> 
> Of course that may change. Afterall, a core strategy of fascism is control of the streets.



fair play and apology .. thought you were making point  

though tbh maybe that is when we first went wrong .. we thought that the way to defeat fascism was to have gigs and stop them marching .. instead they went underground, voted in thatch and then started the long march away from the eyes of the campus based left .. that on one level has born nasty fruit


----------



## durruti02 (May 16, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> 1)Well, there are a couple of issues here that have, thus far, been dismissed out of hand by  the hardline anti-immigrationists:
> 
> 2) the first, is that aping the BNP's stance on immigration is a very dangerous game to play.
> 
> ...




entirely wrong nino 

1) there are NO hard line anti immigrationists on urban .. inflammatory language mate .. you need to watch that 

2) i see no one aping the BNP stance on immigration which .. if you looked at their web site .. is clearly about colour and culture NOT wages/class/resistance etc 

3) again entirely wrong .. i come from a mainly afro caribean area with VERY high youth unemploymnet .. . it is they who have been disproportionately affected by the EU immigration ..  try reading the Voice .

4) no it is not .. it is analysising what capitalism is doing and arguing then what the w/c needs to do


----------



## durruti02 (May 16, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> That's a nice clown costume you're wearing. Do you ever post anything that doesn't contain insults?
> 
> Funny how none of you ever comment on the 500 Britons who leave this country every day. For you lot, it's all one way traffic and as far as debate is concerned, there is none: you've seen to that.
> 
> Over to you, shit-for-brains.



you do not like dealing with reality do you .. 

p.s. i was glad you did the 500 a day thread .. numbers are entirely irrelevant .. that emigration it is simply the other side of the coin of the cheap labour immigration 

.. a class that is forced to be mobile and lacks communities is IMPOTENT .. this is the issue ..


----------



## durruti02 (May 16, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> Well, tell me, whose gonna wash their cars? Drive them to their destinations? Pick their vegetables? Process their food? Feed them? Serve them? Deliver their mail? Make them well? Look after their old folk? Build their houses? Work in their health service? Pay their pensions? Etc, etc.............................................................
> 
> Because with large labour gaps in the economy and an increasing ageing population, someone has to do these things?



MC there are hundreds of thousends ( millions) of unemployed youth in our cities .. i find it absolutely incredible that NOT all socialists argue that our IMMEDIATE priority should be to get those people lives/ jobs/ money /careers 

and if we do not argue this .. you know who will ..


----------



## The Black Hand (May 16, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> MC there are hundreds of thousends ( millions) of unemployed youth in our cities .. i find it absolutely incredible that NOT all socialists argue that our IMMEDIATE priority should be to get those people lives/ jobs/ money /careers
> 
> and if we do not argue this .. you know who will ..



Cameron, Blair, President Brown, Emporer Ming and the Scottish Salmon


----------



## becky p (May 16, 2007)

dash_two said:
			
		

> Article dated May 2007 about a report into wages and immigration commissioned by the Low Pay Unit and carried out by University College London:
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.ucl.ac.uk/media/library/immigration



Whatever evidence is produced can safely be dismissed by some as irrelevant and biased. Anybody who disagrees with them must be racists.


----------



## audiotech (May 16, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> MC there are hundreds of thousends ( millions) of unemployed youth in our cities .. i find it absolutely incredible that NOT all socialists argue that our IMMEDIATE priority should be to get those people lives/ jobs/ money /careers
> 
> and if we do not argue this .. you know who will ..



But there are jobs in agriculture and processing which unemployed youth will not touch with a bargepole, even if they lived anywhere near the fens.  Similarly, jobs in catering, washing cars etc.

Reportedly in the press today there is a scheme in London to recruit local unemployed in the East End by the NHS. They have recruited a massive seven people.

A socialist should also not create divisions in the working class.


----------



## audiotech (May 16, 2007)

....................


----------



## dash_two (May 17, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> So increases across the board. *No undercutting of wages as such.*



But increased inequality and a situation where the lower-paid are still worse off than they would otherwise have been.

Funny how some leftists sound like they're giving a speech to the CBI when they start defending the importation of cheap labour.


----------



## poster342002 (May 17, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> But there are jobs in agriculture and processing which unemployed youth will not touch with a bargepole, even if they lived anywhere near the fens.  Similarly, jobs in catering, washing cars etc.
> 
> Reportedly in the press today there is a scheme in London to recruit local unemployed in the East End by the NHS. They have recruited a massive seven people.


Yes, it's all the fault of these lazy, feckless working class proles who _just won't take the opportunities given to them by our bosses_. Don't they *see* this is a land of opportunity?  

I'm staggered that your above post comes from anyone who purports to be on the left. It reads like a piece of tory, or nulab drivel.


----------



## nino_savatte (May 17, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> you do not like dealing with reality do you ..
> 
> p.s. i was glad you did the 500 a day thread .. numbers are entirely irrelevant .. that emigration it is simply the other side of the coin of the cheap labour immigration
> 
> .. a class that is forced to be mobile and lacks communities is IMPOTENT .. this is the issue ..



No, durutti, you don't like dealing with reality. You ignore emigration in order to advance your ideas on immigration. The numbers of people emigrating are not "irrelevant"; they are only "irrelevant" because such figures undermine your deeply held notion that Britain is being "swamped" by immigrants.

Furthermore, you have deliberately and wilfully misrepresented that letter from Marx on the other thread. You seem to have a problem with history, namely the fact that Ireland was part of the British Empire; it was not an independent country until the 1930's.

You project, obfuscate and dodge. You smear and you lie.


----------



## nino_savatte (May 17, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> entirely wrong nino
> 
> 1) there are NO hard line anti immigrationists on urban .. inflammatory language mate .. you need to watch that
> 
> ...



No, it isn't entirely "wrong" and nowhere in this post have you successfully refuted any of my points.



> try reading the Voice



You may just as well tell me to "read The Sun".

You have consistently failed to idenify who these immigrants are. Easern Europeans are allowed to work here under EU rules. So who are these immigrants and where do they come from? Are they immigrants or refugees? 

You can't or won't answer the last questions because your thesis would look even more ridiculous. I'll tell you: they're from the Middle East and they're from Africa.



> ) i see no one aping the BNP stance on immigration which .. if you looked at their web site .. is clearly about colour and culture NOT wages/class/resistance etc



And you have the cheek to call me "stupid". Are you fucking blind as well as wilfully ignorant?



> there are NO hard line anti immigrationists on urban .. inflammatory language mate .. you need to watch that



Oooh, I'm shaking in me size 9's.   You and baldwin are hardline anit-immigrationists. You have started over 16 threads on the subject in the space of a year.


----------



## nino_savatte (May 17, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> But there are jobs in agriculture and processing which unemployed youth will not touch with a bargepole, even if they lived anywhere near the fens.  Similarly, jobs in catering, washing cars etc.
> 
> Reportedly in the press today there is a scheme in London to recruit local unemployed in the East End by the NHS. They have recruited a massive seven people.
> 
> A socialist should also not create divisions in the working class.



Innit, durutti and his pals won't admit to any of that because their theses would be shot full of holes.

Your last point is lost on folk like durutti. He's no socialist.


----------



## JimPage (May 17, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> Anyway, back to the title of this thread.
> 
> 
> http://nazisarenobs.blogspot.com/



if this passes for analysis of the BNP vote, god help us

Yes- the BNP % vote was down to an average 14.7% , down from 19.2% in 2006, conveniently ignoring that the number of canddiates has doubled- with them going into places wards where they havent stood before- and polling modestly as a result

It ignores the increase in the BNP vote in many areas- and the correct anlaysis which is that they didnt do as well as they expected- but are far from down and out

And that they will learn from their mistakes for 2007- if not in by-elections before then


----------



## KeyboardJockey (May 17, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> if this passes for analysis of the BNP vote, god help us



I found the site entertaining but took a very lacksadaisical view of the bnp.



			
				JimPage said:
			
		

> Yes- the BNP % vote was down to an average 14.7% , down from 19.2% in 2006, conveniently ignoring that the number of canddiates has doubled- with them going into places wards where they havent stood before- and polling modestly as a result
> 
> It ignores the increase in the BNP vote in many areas- and the correct anlaysis which is that they didnt do as well as they expected- but are far from down and out



Agreed. 



			
				JimPage said:
			
		

> And that they will learn from their mistakes for 2007- if not in by-elections before then



I keep going on about this and people still don't pick it up.  The fash have treated this election as a training ground.   They are on the cusp of ditching (at least in public) the meatheads for more electable candidates and that is the time to really worry. 

What the fuck is the left doing going to  do about that apart from indulge themselves in intellectual wank games about dead Russians.  Sadly socilaists in this country prefer to attack their own rather than the real enemy.   

The fash are picking up votes because of worrys that cannot be brushed  under the carpet.   By the time we've sorted the long term problems out ie inequality, access to council housing etc the fash will have overtook many of the left in terms of support.


----------



## The Black Hand (May 17, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> if this passes for analysis of the BNP vote, god help us
> 
> Yes- the BNP % vote was down to an average 14.7% , down from 19.2% in 2006, conveniently ignoring that the number of canddiates has doubled- with them going into places wards where they havent stood before- and polling modestly as a result
> 
> ...



Jim - could you show me please where you are taking your BNP % analysis from? Or have you done it yourself? ta.


----------



## audiotech (May 17, 2007)

poster342002 said:
			
		

> Yes, it's all the fault of these lazy, feckless working class proles who _just won't take the opportunities given to them by our bosses_. Don't they *see* this is a land of opportunity?
> 
> I'm staggered that your above post comes from anyone who purports to be on the left. It reads like a piece of tory, or nulab drivel.



Listen knobhead, I didn't blame working class youth in that post for not taking up those sort of jobs did I spinmister? I know I wouldn't pick sprouts for minimum wage, so why would I expect anyone else to do it ffs?

Although, all of the jobs i've done so far in my career path have been low pay and mostly shite.

To quote:  



> Career opportunities are the ones that never knock. Every job they offer you is to keep you out the dock. Career opportunity, the ones that never knock.


----------



## audiotech (May 17, 2007)

dash_two said:
			
		

> But increased inequality and a situation where the lower-paid are still worse off than they would otherwise have been.
> 
> Funny how some leftists sound like they're giving a speech to the CBI when they start defending the importation of cheap labour.



Where in that post have I stated what you have just spinned me to have said pray tell?


----------



## audiotech (May 17, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> if this passes for analysis of the BNP vote, god help us
> 
> Yes- the BNP % vote was down to an average 14.7% , down from 19.2% in 2006, conveniently ignoring that the number of canddiates has doubled- with them going into places wards where they havent stood before- and polling modestly as a result
> 
> ...



It is a bit of fun - get a grip.


----------



## The Black Hand (May 17, 2007)

KeyboardJockey said:
			
		

> I found the site entertaining but took a very lacksadaisical view of the bnp.
> 
> Agreed.
> 
> ...



I think that you over estimate the fash, they have suffered a set back - the worst vote since 2000 isn't it? So at a time when they have put in 742 councillors they have been rejected by and large. So far it has been very easy for the BNP - the political conditions worked in its favour, the debris of empire, alienation and political change. However, the first serious test of Griffin will be if he can come up with politics to make their own first breakthrough for themselves. I doubt it, certainly not on the basis of their expressed plans, 2008 will be another year of the BNP treading water/ going backwards. 2009 and the Euro elections will be different though, they will be held throughout Europe during 11–13 June 2009.


----------



## The Black Hand (May 17, 2007)

A report about recent anti fascist practice in Newcastle against the NF, the Leninists at FRFI/ RCG were hopelessly off the mark in their write up of events that appeared on Indymedia UK;

http://northeastclasswar.co.uk/doc/TUCAntiNationalFrontMobilisation.pdf


----------



## becky p (May 17, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> You project, obfuscate and dodge. You smear and you lie.



Talking to yourself again?


----------



## becky p (May 17, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> Listen knobhead, I didn't blame working class youth in that post for not taking up those sort of jobs did I spinmister? I know I wouldn't pick sprouts for minimum wage, so why would I expect anyone else to do it ffs?
> 
> /QUOTE]
> 
> Because they are Immigrants?


----------



## audiotech (May 17, 2007)

becky p said:
			
		

> MC5 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## dash_two (May 18, 2007)

A lot of gypsies in Britain used to depend on seasonal fruitpicking and other casual agricultural labour. From what I've heard and seen in East Anglia, they have been all but displaced from this kind of work as farm managers now favour East Europeans over gypsies.

Hardly anyone gives a damn about gyspies and we certainly won't be expecting sympathetic articles on their plight in the Daily Express. But this is a case of cheap labour from abroad having bad consequences for those who don't have many other options in the labour market.

By all means we should let new people come to Britain, but not when it leads to zero-sum competition for jobs or housing with those already living here. Otherwise you will have to accept a trade-off whereby we have historically high net levels of relatively unregulated immigration along with increasing anti-immigration sentiment.


----------



## nino_savatte (May 18, 2007)

Immigrants:

1. Take our jobs
2. Take advantage of our generous benefits system
3. Take advantage of the NHS 
4. Go to the top of the housing list
5. Steal our women.

Are there any more myths that anyone would like to share with us?


----------



## dash_two (May 18, 2007)

Ending all your posts with the little grinning Prozac face does not improve their wit.


----------



## nino_savatte (May 18, 2007)

dash_two said:
			
		

> Ending all your posts with the little grinning Prozac face does not improve their wit.



Whereas there is a total absence of wit or intelligence to your posts.

Over to you, shit-for-brains.


----------



## nino_savatte (May 18, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> Where in that post have I stated what you have just spinned me to have said pray tell?



He's fond of that sort of thing, MC5.  he's like the rest of them: If he doesn't like what you are saying, he'll make it up. What an imagination he has.


----------



## The Black Hand (May 18, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> Immigrants:
> 
> 1. Take our jobs
> 2. Take advantage of our generous benefits system
> ...



  good point...

This endless debate is wearing thin - I can hardly be bothered anymore. The debate itself is painful to have to go through, perhaps we had better focus on actually changing/doing things as Mr Marx said?


----------



## nino_savatte (May 18, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> good point...
> 
> This endless debate is wearing thin - I can hardly be bothered anymore. The debate itself is painful to have to go through, perhaps we had better focus on actually changing/doing things as Mr Marx said?



Isn't it? There is the tendency among those who share particular views on immigration to get defensive.  I'm getting pretty bored with it all too. Recently these threads have become a haven for crackpots, trolls and twits like SwarthyThug (who is lurking).

If they aren't being defensive, they're misrepresenting your posts and making up lies about you.


----------



## The Black Hand (May 18, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> Isn't it? There is the tendency among those who share particular views on immigration to get defensive.  I'm getting pretty bored with it all too. Recently these threads have become a haven for crackpots, trolls and twits like SwarthyThug (who is lurking).
> 
> If they aren't being defensive, they're misrepresenting your posts and making up lies about you.



Yeah - its got to stop. It's obsessive and I struggle to see any good it is doing... infact its probably doing political harm.


----------



## dash_two (May 18, 2007)

More projection going on there nino than at the Leicester Square Odeon.


----------



## nino_savatte (May 18, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> Yeah - its got to stop. It's obsessive and I struggle to see any good it is doing... infact its probably doing political harm.



It certainly doesn't do much for their arguments.


----------



## nino_savatte (May 18, 2007)

dash_two said:
			
		

> More projection going on there nino than at the Leicester Square Odeon.



More shit from Urban's newest muck spreader.

Oh and where was I "projecting", shit-for-brains?


----------



## nino_savatte (May 18, 2007)

I reckon dash_two is SwarthyThug. If he isn't, then he's one of his pals.


----------



## nino_savatte (May 18, 2007)

dash_two said:
			
		

> If you don't want the BNP to do well, don't have so much immigration.



So, slash_two, let's go back to this post. So, by your logic, anyone with surnames like Singh or Patel shouldn't be allowed into this country, nor should anyone who has dark skin or curly hair...so that 'we' can 'defeat' the BNP.

What the BNP want are people with names like Van der Merwe or Botha. Maybe you do too.


----------



## dash_two (May 18, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> So, slash_two, let's go back to this post.



Ahem.




			
				Urban75 Posting Rules said:
			
		

> 8. Privacy Please respect people's privacy and refrain from posting up any personal details without their permission. *Do not piss about with user names* or refer to people by their real names (unless they already appear in their user name, of course).



Now I would never report a post as that's strictly for creeps, but please pay attention to the bit of the Posting Rules I've put in bold, and let's start again.


----------



## nino_savatte (May 18, 2007)

dash_two said:
			
		

> Ahem.
> 
> 
> 
> Now I would never report a post as that's strictly for creeps, but please pay attention to the bit of the Posting Rules I've put in bold, and let's start again.



Aw, bless...shame you have no compunction about breaking the rules yourself though - eh?

This is your only defence because your idea of pandering to the BNP is pretty disgraceful and you know it, swarthy.

Go on, report me. Like I give a fuck.

You do realise that there is a rule regarding returned posters who have been previously banned, don't you?


----------



## nino_savatte (May 18, 2007)

> Originally Posted by dash_two
> If you don't want the BNP to do well, don't have so much immigration.



Such simplicity of thought; what a shining example of binarism.

Are you all for pandering to minority parties of the far right, swarthy?


----------



## dash_two (May 18, 2007)

'Binarism'? If you can give the Rubbish-to-English translation I'd be grateful.


----------



## JimPage (May 18, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> Jim - could you show me please where you are taking your BNP % analysis from? Or have you done it yourself? ta.



myself. its going into their results in depth- and going beyone the headline figures. for every kirklees there was a rotherham. for every sunderland there was a sedgefield. simply looking at results- comparing to previous results- and taking a wider view than "BNP down in Oldham"


----------



## JimPage (May 18, 2007)

KeyboardJockey said:
			
		

> I found the site entertaining but took a very lacksadaisical view of the bnp.
> 
> _I keep going on about this and people still don't pick it up.  The fash have treated this election as a training ground.   They are on the cusp of ditching (at least in public) the meatheads for more electable candidates and that is the time to really worry. _
> .


this is so true. in many of the areas they stood this time, they havent stood before- so they were starting from scratch in the mechanics of standing for elections and comminuty campaigning- and a first time poll of 10-15% in that context isnt bad (say Northampton as good example).


----------



## butchersapron (May 18, 2007)

Correct, the normalisation of voting BNP is now a fact in many areas, and they are also steadily putting in place the process to achieve this nationally - just look at the astonishing number of good competetive second places in wards where they're standing for only the 2nd or 3rd time, then add that to the ones you mention and i think the dynamic is pretty obvious.


----------



## KeyboardJockey (May 18, 2007)

torres said:
			
		

> Correct, the normalisation of voting BNP is now a fact in many areas, and they are also steadily putting in place the process to achieve this nationally - just look at the astonishing number of good competetive second places in wards where they're standing for only the 2nd or 3rd time, then add that to the ones you mention and i think the dynamic is pretty obvious.



Agreed that it is the normalisation of voting bnp that is worrying.  It used to something that people felt a bit ashamed of but not now.  

Thats why I think that the traditional methods of fighting the extreme right that used to work when they were all meatheads isn't going to work now.


----------



## nino_savatte (May 18, 2007)

dash_two said:
			
		

> 'Binarism'? If you can give the Rubbish-to-English translation I'd be grateful.



You're far too thick to understand, any attempt to explain something as simple as binarism would be totally wasted on you.


Pity you dodged my question about your original post -eh. dash? Or should I call you Mr Lustbather? No, you don't spell that bad.


----------



## audiotech (May 18, 2007)

dash_two said:
			
		

> A lot of gypsies in Britain used to depend on seasonal fruitpicking and other casual agricultural labour. From what I've heard and seen in East Anglia, they have been all but displaced from this kind of work as farm managers now favour East Europeans over gypsies.
> 
> Hardly anyone gives a damn about gyspies and we certainly won't be expecting sympathetic articles on their plight in the Daily Express. But this is a case of cheap labour from abroad having bad consequences for those who don't have many other options in the labour market.
> 
> By all means we should let new people come to Britain, but not when it leads to zero-sum competition for jobs or housing with those already living here. Otherwise you will have to accept a trade-off whereby we have historically high net levels of relatively unregulated immigration along with increasing anti-immigration sentiment.



East Europeans are not 'competing' for jobs, or housing. They do the shit jobs, on a temporary basis that no one else wants to do and are holed up in multiple occupancy, usually in the private rented sector, again on a temporary basis. I don't recognise what you are saying about gypsies?

There is no 'unregulared' immigration, even the illlegal variety is 'regulated' by the supply and demands of the black market.

Anti-immigration sentiments are not knew to these shores. pandering to it doesn't help matters any.

Anyway, I thought we we're talking about migrants here and not immigrants?


----------



## chymaera (May 18, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> East Europeans are not 'competing' for jobs, or housing. They do the shit jobs, on a temporary basis that no one else wants to do and are holed up in multiple occupancy, usually in the private rented sector, again on a temporary basis.




I don't know where you live, but I have come across a number of people this year who normally do seasonal crop picking and they all had had the same experience, they had turned up as usual to do the work, and were told to **** off (literally), we are only using immigrants.


----------



## nino_savatte (May 18, 2007)

chymaera said:
			
		

> I don't know where you live, but I have come across a number of people this year who normally do seasonal crop picking and they all had had the same experience, they had turned up as usual to do the work, and were told to **** off (literally), we are only using immigrants.



There was a recent undercover investigation about this on telly the other week. I've heard of migrant workers being paid bugger all and being forced to pay rent to their employers.

Sounds a little like the auld company store...



> You load sixteen tons, what do you get
> Another day older and deeper in debt
> Saint Peter don't you call me 'cause I can't go
> I owe my soul to the company store
> ...


----------



## audiotech (May 18, 2007)

chymaera said:
			
		

> I don't know where you live, but I have come across a number of people this year who normally do seasonal crop picking and they all had had the same experience, they had turned up as usual to do the work, and were told to **** off (literally), we are only using immigrants.



Students was it?


----------



## durruti02 (May 18, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> Cameron, Blair, President Brown, Emporer Ming and the Scottish Salmon



not quite sure of your point but as the architects of post thatch neo liberalism i find it odd you would think blair brown and all are not in favour of cheap labour and open borders ( for the bosses) 

i suspect we will see an attempot to force youth to take cheap labour jobs but that is a political battle more complicated than getting bright young poles across 

ps.s do you remember my thread on 'refusal' and how this has been part of the reason for the encouraging of EU immigration?


----------



## durruti02 (May 18, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> But there are jobs in agriculture and processing which unemployed youth will not touch with a bargepole, even if they lived anywhere near the fens.  Similarly, jobs in catering, washing cars etc.
> 
> Reportedly in the press today there is a scheme in London to recruit local unemployed in the East End by the NHS. They have recruited a massive seven people.
> 
> A socialist should also not create divisions in the working class.



but MC as a socialist we can not then stand by as the bosses import people on low wages to do these jobs?????  

*the principled stance must be that these jobs are made attractive in all ways surely???? *


----------



## durruti02 (May 18, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> No, durutti, you don't like dealing with reality. You ignore emigration in order to advance your ideas on immigration. The numbers of people emigrating are not "irrelevant"; they are only "irrelevant" because such figures undermine your deeply held notion that Britain is being "swamped" by immigrants.
> 
> Furthermore, you have deliberately and wilfully misrepresented that letter from Marx on the other thread. You seem to have a problem with history, namely the fact that Ireland was part of the British Empire; it was not an independent country until the 1930's.
> 
> You project, obfuscate and dodge. You smear and you lie.



yes we all know about irelands history and we all know about emigration .. sadly that has nowt to do with the argument about how the bosses use people from wherever undercut unions and conditions


----------



## durruti02 (May 18, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> No, it isn't entirely "wrong" and nowhere in this post have you successfully refuted any of my points.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



nino mate .. you have lost it completely


----------



## durruti02 (May 18, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> Listen knobhead, I didn't blame working class youth in that post for not taking up those sort of jobs did I spinmister? I know I wouldn't pick sprouts for minimum wage, so why would I expect anyone else to do it ffs?
> 
> Although, all of the jobs i've done so far in my career path have been low pay and mostly shite.
> 
> To quote:



ok so do we stand aside and let the bosses import labour to do these jobs instead of demanding proper conditiuons and wages??


----------



## durruti02 (May 18, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> I think that you over estimate the fash, they have suffered a set back - the worst vote since 2000 isn't it? So at a time when they have put in 742 councillors they have been rejected by and large. So far it has been very easy for the BNP - the political conditions worked in its favour, the debris of empire, alienation and political change. However, the first serious test of Griffin will be if he can come up with politics to make their own first breakthrough for themselves. I doubt it, certainly not on the basis of their expressed plans, 2008 will be another year of the BNP treading water/ going backwards. 2009 and the Euro elections will be different though, they will be held throughout Europe during 11–13 June 2009.



attica this is a fringe party a fascist party .. you continually seem to suggest that not winning hundreds of seats is a set back ... sadly this was no set back .. their vote was up .. the percentage was only down as they went into new areas .. you need to check the stats you have misinterpreted them


----------



## The Black Hand (May 18, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> not quite sure of your point but as the architects of post thatch neo liberalism i find it odd you would think blair brown and all are not in favour of cheap labour and open borders ( for the bosses)
> 
> i suspect we will see an attempot to force youth to take cheap labour jobs but that is a political battle more complicated than getting bright young poles across
> 
> ps.s do you remember my thread on 'refusal' and how this has been part of the reason for the encouraging of EU immigration?



Sorry - it looks like I got the opposite end of the stick of your post. Apologies.


----------



## durruti02 (May 18, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> Yeah - its got to stop. It's obsessive and I struggle to see any good it is doing... infact its probably doing political harm.



sorry attica? are yo sure? that we try toanalyse the BNP strategy and try to whats going on with immigration you see as 'doing political harm'??? i am deeply suprised at you


----------



## The Black Hand (May 18, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> attica this is a fringe party a fascist party .. you continually seem to suggest that not winning hundreds of seats is a set back ... sadly this was no set back .. their vote was up .. the percentage was only down as they went into new areas .. you need to check the stats you have misinterpreted them



I am quite happy with my points. They have gone into new areas and so that has dented their %. It still means they are doing badly. Their vote is still the worst council election vote for the BNP since 2000 - and we should shout it to the fash to further demoralise them. 

Your position assumes their vote will go up which isn't necessarily the case, as they may provoke people to get off their arse and do stuff against them.


----------



## durruti02 (May 18, 2007)

KeyboardJockey said:
			
		

> Agreed that it is the normalisation of voting bnp that is worrying.  It used to something that people felt a bit ashamed of but not now.
> 
> Thats why I think that the traditional methods of fighting the extreme right that used to work when they were all meatheads isn't going to work now.



attica this is what you have missed .. it is now normal for many people to either vote or think about voting for a racist and neo facist party .. you dismiss this at your and all of our perils


----------



## durruti02 (May 18, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> Sorry - it looks like I got the opposite end of the stick of your post. Apologies.



fair play


----------



## The Black Hand (May 18, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> sorry attica? are yo sure? that we try toanalyse the BNP strategy and try to whats going on with immigration you see as 'doing political harm'??? i am deeply suprised at you



I am all for serious anti fascist discussion and promote dialogue and conferences. Infact, I am thinking of organising one in... Sunderland. _That's only a thought at the minute though a serious one_, and in the autumn I will be planning for next year so bear that in mind. I will be at the bookfair on October 27th in London where we can discuss this further if you are interested.

My point was based on the political feel/ambiance of these forums now that this is THE *issue*. 

This issue does not fill me with political confidence. 

This is my personal feelings and is not a political position.


----------



## durruti02 (May 18, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> I am quite happy with my points. They have gone into new areas and so that has dented their %. It still means they are doing badly. Their vote is still the worst council election vote for the BNP since 2000 - and we should shout it to the fash to further demoralise them.
> 
> Your position assumes their vote will go up which isn't necessarily the case, as they may provoke people to get off their arse and do stuff against them.



no you are wrong ... their overall vote was up .. that is a fact .. as you acknowledge the % only went down due to them expanding where they stood 

to average 15% in so nearly 1000 seats is incredible .. this is more i suspect than any other facist party in uk history  ..


----------



## The Black Hand (May 18, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> attica this is what you have missed .. it is now normal for many people to either vote or think about voting for a racist and neo facist party .. you dismiss this at your and all of our perils



Well their vote in the Euro elections told you that in 2004. There is still an hint of 'dirtyness' with voting BNP, and people know it. They _are_ used as a protest vote, and we have to continue to make sure people know it is a 'dirty' thing to do.


----------



## The Black Hand (May 18, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> no you are wrong ... their overall vote was up .. that is a fact .. as you acknowledge the % only went down due to them expanding where they stood
> 
> to average 15% in so nearly 1000 seats is incredible .. this is more i suspect than any other facist party in uk history  ..



There overall vote was up but it is still 500K lower than their European Election vote. TBH their European Election vote is the true parameters of their available vote, and I still think they are irrelevant scum  who deserve a beasting.


----------



## Larry O'Hara (May 18, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> I am quite happy with my points. They have gone into new areas and so that has dented their %. It still means they are doing badly.


No, it means they are not doing as well as they had hoped.



> Their vote is still the worst council election vote for the BNP since 2000 - and we should shout it to the fash to further demoralise them.


They are not demoralised, rather learning from the experience.  See (for example) the May BNP Organiser's Bulletin, and even the Griffin article on the web-site.



> Your position assumes their vote will go up which isn't necessarily the case, as they may provoke people to get off their arse and do stuff against them.



People already have--and in some cases (like Barking & Dagenham) it seems to have helped the BNP.

Sadly, no evidence to the contrary will convince you the BNP are getting their act together.  Your position is based on _a priori_  assumptions into which 'evidence' is then shoe-horned.  I repeat--any serious Left group would metaphorically kill to get 14.6% of the vote and 50 council seats.   You refer above to the European Elections--omitting to mention that even before the council elections this was always Griffin's main target.


----------



## durruti02 (May 18, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> I am all for serious anti fascist discussion and promote dialogue and conferences. Infact, I am thinking of organising one in... Sunderland. _That's only a thought at the minute though a serious one_, and in the autumn I will be planning for next year so bear that in mind. I will be at the bookfair on October 27th in London where we can discuss this further if you are interested.
> 
> My point was based on the political feel/ambiance of these forums now that this is THE *issue*.
> 
> ...



ok i see what you are saying .. but suprised you seem to supportting some one like nino who is coming at it from a totally unreconstructed position 

yes it is a deeply depressing subject and one i do NOT enjoy talking about .. i am constantly being digged by idiots like nino that i am racist and indeed that gets to me .. but as you know these people are not taking positions that are pro working class. they are not coming up with any solutions and we as a movement fall further and further behind . They literally are living in cloud cuckoo land. They fail to understand how this debate is being played out, spun and manipulated in the class and the DESPERATLEY MISSING ELEMENT WHICH IS A PROGRESSIVE POSITION on the subject.  

i would prefer to be arguing where we  were all going on holiday but theadvance of tthe BNP and the issue of immigration is absolutely key to the state of the left/the movement ..


----------



## durruti02 (May 18, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> There overall vote was up but it is still 500K lower than their European Election vote. TBH their European Election vote is the true parameters of their available vote, and I still think they are irrelevant scum  who deserve a beasting.



attica .. this was a much smaller constituency!!!!


----------



## The Black Hand (May 18, 2007)

Larry O'Hara said:
			
		

> a) No, it means they are not doing as well as they had hoped.
> 
> B) They are not demoralised, rather learning from the experience.  See (for example) the May BNP Organiser's Bulletin, and even the Griffin article on the web-site.
> 
> ...



A) - same thing.

B) - where can I get the May organisers bulletin - on their site i presume?
Well perhaps we should try to make them demoralised then!! Griffin is not the ordinary membership of the BNP who may have got a bit demoralised...

C) - well there's always a chance to do it better then.

D) - big deal, they are now an organised small fascist party. Most countries in Europe have to live with this. Your point?

You have an a priori position of bigging up the BNP. Perhaps the truth lies somewhere in the middle of the gap between the 2 positions?!


----------



## The Black Hand (May 18, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> attica .. this was a much smaller constituency!!!!



Have you worked out what proportion? 800K nationally in the European elections. 300K in 40% of that constituency during these elections? I haven't worked it out - that's a guess btw. I am quite willing to be wrong, these things happen...


----------



## liberty123 (May 18, 2007)

I don't think they're quite a spent force. But their growth seems to have reached it's limits, unless there are future race riots. There seems unaminous feeling that Labour are letting too many people into this country especially  muslims but the BNP can't tap into this public sentiment, probably because people think they might be secretly be a fascist party.


----------



## The Black Hand (May 19, 2007)

liberty123 said:
			
		

> I don't think they're quite a spent force. But their growth seems to have reached it's limits, unless there are future race riots. There seems unaminous feeling that Labour are letting too many people into this country especially  muslims but the BNP can't tap into this public sentiment, probably because people think they might be secretly be a fascist party.



Yes, these are possibilities you have described.

Indeed, this could be the limit of their growth now. How they make the next jump is the interesting one, will they clear the hurdle? Will they stall before the next jump? Will Griffin be pushed or will he fall on his sword   (lets hope so).


----------



## nino_savatte (May 19, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> nino mate .. you have lost it completely



Hardly. Dream on.


----------



## The Black Hand (May 19, 2007)

here's part of an article by John Cruddas MP from the Aslef train drivers magazine (APril 2007)... the second article in a series where he discussed Cable Street in the previous article. My point is that it is foolish to underestimate the range of voters who are being currently encouraged to be anti BNP, indeed without evidence the drop in the vote could be a result. Analysis  to disprove this would show ups and downs (Sunderland was a down voting not a new BNP area)... 

"Encouraged by the events
of Cable Street, some people
The fascists
will be defeated
once again
realised that the fascists had
to be defeated within the local
community, and that meant
addressing the issues like
housing. The result was the
Stepney Tenants Defence
League (STDL).
The STDL organised rent
strikes aimed at bringing
recalcitrant slum landlords to
the negotiating table winning
vital concessions and rent
reductions for beleaguered
tenants in the process. They
even assisted fascist tenants
too, saving them from
eviction. The BUF had done
nothing for them. As a result
BUF membership cards were
torn up in disgust.
By helping local people
overcome the problems they
faced in their daily lives and
to help them to understand
that these were not caused by
“Jews” or “alien immigrants”
the STDL raised people’s
political consciousness,
empowered them to take
responsibility for their own
destinies; proving that unity
rather than division was the
only way through which the
community could overcome
the obstacles of social
deprivation.
This form of community
organisation remains a model
for us to use today. And I am
optimistic. In the communities
where the BNP is a threat a
new politics is being forged;
anti-fascists and church
groups, local union branches,
voluntary and political groups
are coming together in new
creative ways to confront the
far right.
Whilst all the political
parties seek the vote of a
specific minority of swing
voters in a highly select part
of the country, a new antifascist
mobilisation is being
co-ordinated to fight the
fascist on a different political
and geographical landscape.
The Battle of Cable Street
helped to set in motion this
more sophisticated and
ultimately more successful
brand of anti-fascist politics.
The lessons are there to be
relearned."


----------



## liberty123 (May 19, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> Yes, these are possibilities you have described.
> 
> Indeed, this could be the limit of their growth now. How they make the next jump is the interesting one, will they clear the hurdle? Will they stall before the next jump? Will Griffin be pushed or will he fall on his sword   (lets hope so).



Well the party was described in the early nineties as neo-nazi by the European commission on anti-semitism. How do you make such an organisation ever respectable outside areas of real racial tension? Griffin's holohoax comment and past denial of gas chambers is an indelible stain that Searchlight knows alienates middle class people of conscience however strongly they feel about immigration and multi-culturalism, but if Griffin goes then they don't really have anyone with the ability to replace him. Most of their supporters being working class, they don't come over well in interviews, because they're not comprised by the natural political class of this country. They struggle to express themselves well, racial issues being a subject in which getting the language right is paramount- if argumants aren't expressed extremely carefully then it's easy for someone to come across simply as a racist baffoon, even to people who are would be sympathisizers. The majority of the population are uneasy about the race situation in Britain yest at the same time are so highly tuned now against racist bigotry. UKIP on the otherhand could do very well if they adopted some of the BNP's clothes on race. A respectable populist anti-immigrant far right party without the anti-semitism and with tried and trained well spoken politicians could become a definite force.


----------



## liberty123 (May 19, 2007)

I think simply put the BNP will be unable to make that bridge to respectability.


----------



## becky p (May 19, 2007)

chymaera said:
			
		

> I don't know where you live, but I have come across a number of people this year who normally do seasonal crop picking and they all had had the same experience, they had turned up as usual to do the work, and were told to **** off (literally), we are only using immigrants.




Yet some people still refuse to accept this is the case. They much prefer to hide their heads in the sand and shout out racist. 
The BNP are the people who can profit from that stupidity.


----------



## audiotech (May 19, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> but MC as a socialist we can not then stand by as the bosses import people on low wages to do these jobs?????
> 
> *the principled stance must be that these jobs are made attractive in all ways surely???? *



Organise for better pay and conditions. More socialist than urging for more controls.


----------



## audiotech (May 19, 2007)

becky p said:
			
		

> Yet some people still refuse to accept this is the case. They much prefer to hide their heads in the sand and shout out racist.
> The BNP are the people who can profit from that stupidity.



The BNP profit because a few middle class students lose out on fruit picking. I doubt it.


----------



## becky p (May 19, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> The BNP profit because a few middle class students lose out on fruit picking. I doubt it.



Not my point at all. The BNP will benefit though from people who suggest that anybody who disagrees with them on migration is " as bad as the BNP"
It appears that you and nino want to all you can to push people towards the BNP.


----------



## audiotech (May 19, 2007)

becky p said:
			
		

> The BNP are the people who can profit from that stupidity.



Speaking of the BNP and stupidity,  Griffin's Mrs told the Mail on Sunday in 2005, that her husband had never "had a proper job".


----------



## becky p (May 19, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> Speaking of the BNP and stupidity,  Griffin's Mrs told the Mail on Sunday in 2005, that her husband had never "had a proper job".



That might explain why a poster called nino savatte spends so much time on here.


----------



## audiotech (May 19, 2007)

becky p said:
			
		

> Not my point at all. The BNP will benefit though from people who suggest that anybody who disagrees with them on migration is " as bad as the BNP"
> It appears that you and nino want to all you can to push people towards the BNP.



What is your point?

Now, that quote? Who posted it and where is it?

Are you being pushed that way Becky?


----------



## audiotech (May 19, 2007)

becky p said:
			
		

> That might explain why a poster called nino savatte spends so much time on here.



Really? Has nino_savette ever said he's never "had a proper job" then?


----------



## becky p (May 19, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> What is your point?
> 
> Now, that quote? Who posted it and where is it?
> 
> Are you being pushed that way Becky?



My point is that if people keep insisting that people who have concerns over millions of people migrating to the UK are all racist,then they are doing the BNPs work for them.


----------



## becky p (May 19, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> Really? Has nino_savette ever said he's never "had a proper job" then?



Can you really imagine him in a Job?


----------



## audiotech (May 19, 2007)

becky p said:
			
		

> My point is that if people keep insisting that people who have concerns over millions of people migrating to the UK are all racist,then they are doing the BNPs work for them.



Nobody has said that though have they?


----------



## audiotech (May 19, 2007)

becky p said:
			
		

> Can you really imagine him in a Job?



Why not, nino_savette is clearly not stupid like some I could mention and what makes you so special to employers anyway?


----------



## nino_savatte (May 20, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> What is your point?
> 
> Now, that quote? Who posted it and where is it?
> 
> Are you being pushed that way Becky?



She doesn't have a point, she never does. She cannot see how certain words and phrases are used by parties like the BNP. She also has a hard time understanding how her ideas on immigration contribute directly to attacks on immigrants.

She is another one of the crew who gets defensive about her cherished ideas on immigration. Trouble is, she doesn't have any other thoughts on this issue apart from spitting out clichés like, "This is a crowded island".


----------



## nino_savatte (May 20, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> Why not, nino_savette is clearly not stupid like some I could mention and what makes you so special to employers anyway?



This is her problem: she presumes too much and she presumes that I do no work. How she arrived at this conclusion is anyone's guess. One would imagine that she thinks it's a good 'insult' or 'putdown'.


----------



## becky p (May 20, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> She doesn't have a point, she never does. She cannot see how certain words and phrases are used by parties like the BNP. She also has a hard time understanding how her ideas on immigration contribute directly to attacks on immigrants.
> 
> She is another one of the crew who gets defensive about her cherished ideas on immigration. Trouble is, she doesn't have any other thoughts on this issue apart from spitting out clichés like, "This is a crowded island".



So my ideas contribute directly to attacks on immigrants. 

It is you who has the fixed ideas on immigration.You who has difficulty understanding that other people are entitled to different views on the subject.
You who seems intent on pushing more people towards the BNP.

And where have i said the UK is a crowded island? Parts of it are crowded,but large parts are not.

How many different interpreters are now required by schools,hospitals and the police service?
Who do you think should pick up the cost?

Margaret Hodge, the Labour MP for Barking has come out and said that many people in her constituency are really concerned by this issue.
Concerned that recent migrants get preference in social housing.
What would you and people like you say to them?


----------



## Peet (May 20, 2007)

I don't think the BNP needs a strategy other than remain a right wing party.  If you're right of centre they're about the only thing on the menu.


----------



## niclas (May 20, 2007)

Paul Marsh said:
			
		

> At the time Griffin's arrival in the town was not popular, and the riots were in 2003 - nearly four years ago. They have built up a base in the time _since_ the riots.
> 
> Oddly enough people I spoke to in Wrexham when I went there in 2005 were delighted by the arrests that occured in the distrubances - the flow of hard drugs into the town had been greatly reduced by those arrests and subsequent jailings.



I live in Wrexham and the vote was nothing to do with the Caia Park riots, which started between Iraqi Kurd refugees on the estate and locals and then (on the second night) became a free-for-all between every scally in town and the police.
 The BNP has traded big time on the big Polish community that's moved here in the past 3-4 years. 
 Wxm has also gone from being a 98% white, solidly working-class town 10-15 yrs ago to being a fairly multicultural town with a huge Polish and Portuguese presence. The buy-to-let landlords have packed in migrant workers so affordable housing has become scarce. 
 It's also become more middle-class as the Chester set move in for the cheaper housing, pricing locals out. 
 The BNP barely exists on the ground here but the 9% was a protest vote against a shite Labour Party and the failure of the other parties to engage with the local working class.


----------



## Peet (May 20, 2007)

niclas said:
			
		

> I live in Wrexham and the vote was nothing to do with the Caia Park riots, which started between Iraqi Kurd refugees on the estate and locals and then (on the second night) became a free-for-all between every scally in town and the police.
> The BNP has traded big time on the big Polish community that's moved here in the past 3-4 years.
> Wxm has also gone from being a 98% white, solidly working-class town 10-15 yrs ago to being a fairly multicultural town with a huge Polish and Portuguese presence. The buy-to-let landlords have packed in migrant workers so affordable housing has become scarce.
> It's also become more middle-class as the Chester set move in for the cheaper housing, pricing locals out.
> The BNP barely exists on the ground here but the 9% was a protest vote against a shite Labour Party and the failure of the other parties to engage with the local working class.




So what you're saying is that immigration brings trouble and the locals don't want it.


----------



## Groucho (May 20, 2007)

becky p said:
			
		

> ...
> 
> Margaret Hodge, the Labour MP for Barking has come out and said that many people in her constituency are really concerned by this issue.
> Concerned that recent migrants get preference in social housing.
> ...



But recent migrants do NOT get preference in social housing. Legal migrants are assessed on a par with everyone else. 

Hodge went a bit further than even you have today in accepting parts of the BNP agenda. She stated today that migrants to Britain should not be treated equally with British citizens as regards social housing, but should be treated as second class citizens. When will people - and politicians especially - understand that accepting parts of the BNP argument does not weaken but strengthen the BNP?


----------



## The Black Hand (May 20, 2007)

niclas said:
			
		

> I live in Wrexham and the vote was nothing to do with the Caia Park riots, which started between Iraqi Kurd refugees on the estate and locals and then (on the second night) became a free-for-all between every scally in town and the police.
> The BNP has traded big time on the big Polish community that's moved here in the past 3-4 years.
> Wxm has also gone from being a 98% white, solidly working-class town 10-15 yrs ago to being a fairly multicultural town with a huge Polish and Portuguese presence. The buy-to-let landlords have packed in migrant workers so affordable housing has become scarce.
> It's also become more middle-class as the Chester set move in for the cheaper housing, pricing locals out.
> The BNP barely exists on the ground here but the 9% was a protest vote against a shite Labour Party and the failure of the other parties to engage with the local working class.



Nice post.


----------



## becky p (May 20, 2007)

Groucho said:
			
		

> But recent migrants do NOT get preference in social housing. Legal migrants are assessed on a par with everyone else.
> 
> Hodge went a bit further than even you have today in accepting parts of the BNP agenda. She stated today that migrants to Britain should not be treated equally with British citizens as regards social housing, but should be treated as second class citizens. When will people - and politicians especially - understand that accepting parts of the BNP argument does not weaken but strengthen the BNP?



Do you think that anybody from any other country should be entitled to all the benefits open to people in this country?
It might sound good. But how would that work in practice?
Should we be paying pensions for people who have never worked in the UK. Wouldnt that mean the level of basic pension being cut?
Do you think its a good idea to make this country a more and more attractive proposition for economic migrants?


----------



## Groucho (May 20, 2007)

becky p said:
			
		

> Do you think that anybody from any other country should be entitled to all the benefits open to people in this country?
> It might sound good. But how would that work in practice?
> Should we be paying pensions for people who have never worked in the UK. Wouldnt that mean the level of basic pension being cut?
> Do you think its a good idea to make this country a more and more attractive proposition for economic migrants?



It has been accepted that if people are legally here they should get the same entitlements as the rest of us. A change to that would be a major attack on people's rights. As it happens immigration creates more wealth than it costs. Without immigration the UK economy would suffer, the health service would collapse etc
You mention pensions. As the UK population ages the ratio of pensioner to active worker increases - immigration is especially needed to increase the working age population precisely to fund pensions.


----------



## becky p (May 20, 2007)

Groucho said:
			
		

> It has been accepted that if people are legally here they should get the same entitlements as the rest of us. A change to that would be a major attack on people's rights. As it happens immigration creates more wealth than it costs. Without immigration the UK economy would suffer, the health service would collapse etc
> You mention pensions. As the UK population ages the ratio of pensioner to active worker increases - immigration is especially needed to increase the working age population precisely to fund pensions.



I agree with you without immigration the health service would have collapsed years ago. But the present levels of immigration are IMO unsustainable. I know Teachers who struggle due to having so many kids in their classes who  speak English as a second language. Courts and Hospitals all need to spend more resources on interpreters.
Councils up and down the country are struggling to cope with a huge influx of people wanting existing and new services.

There is only so much housing and so much room. Wouldnt it be better to campaign for better wages and conditions in the countries that people come from?


----------



## audiotech (May 20, 2007)

becky p said:
			
		

> Do you think that anybody from any other country should be entitled to all the benefits open to people in this country?



Any other country? Bit of a broad sweep you're arguing there, which you've changed from your talk about migrants. Can you stick to the point in hand for once and understand that Groucho was specifically talking about *migrants* and not people from *any other country*.  

The reality is this:

The UK, along with Ireland and Sweden granted workers from the eight Central European states (“A8 countries”) that joined the EU in May 2004 the right to enter and work. However, the right to work in the ‘flexible’ labour markets of the UK and Ireland was accompanied by restrictions on migrants’ access to unemployment and welfare benefits (see National Economic and Social Council of Ireland, 2006a; Ruhs, 2006b).

A new guest worker programme in discusssion would, also involve restrictions of at least some of the rights of migrant workers.

]





> For example, by definition, guest workers have a time-limited right to residence and employment in the host country. Time spent in employment as a guest worker usually does not count or help a migrant earn permanent residence rights. Most guest worker programmes restrict migrants to employment in certain sectors, do not allow migrants to freely change employers, and require them to leave the country if they lose their jobs. Under most proposals for new guest worker programmes, migrants are also likely to have very restricted access to unemployment and welfare benefits and no right to family reunion.
> http://www.compas.ox.ac.uk/publications/Working papers/WP0640-Ruhs-Martin.pdf


----------



## becky p (May 20, 2007)

MC5 are you trying to make some point?


----------



## audiotech (May 20, 2007)

becky p said:
			
		

> MC5 are you trying to make some point?



Yeah, that you shifted the argument from migrants to immigrants and thereby confused the issue.


----------



## nino_savatte (May 21, 2007)

becky p said:
			
		

> So my ideas contribute directly to attacks on immigrants.
> 
> It is you who has the fixed ideas on immigration.You who has difficulty understanding that other people are entitled to different views on the subject.
> You who seems intent on pushing more people towards the BNP.
> ...



Do you write storylines for EastEnders? Because once again, you've made up what you think that I've said.

What is it with you lot? Why do you have to lie, cheat and misrepresent people's posts?



> It is you who has the fixed ideas on immigration.You who has difficulty understanding that other people are entitled to different views on the subject.



Really? Where? I think those of you who are patently anti-immigration have not considered certain facts such as where ideas on immigration control actually come from, instead you get defensive and issue forth insults....that is all that you do



> You who seems intent on pushing more people towards the BNP.



Really? I don't know how you worked that one out. How am I "pushing more people towards the BNP"? That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Anyone who advocates tighter controls shares the BNP's pov.

Oh, and Margaret Hodge protected kiddy fiddlers when she was Leader of Islington Council. She's barking mad...if you'll pardon the pun.


----------



## treelover (May 21, 2007)

Actually you are wrong there, any figures? and why are you, a Marxist (of sorts) sounding like someone from the CBI? strange bedfellows indeed.




> As it happens immigration creates more wealth than it costs. Without immigration the UK economy would suffer, the health service would collapse etc
> You mention pensions. As the UK population ages the ratio of pensioner to active worker increases - immigration is especially needed to increase the working age population precisely to fund pensions.
> Reply With Quote


----------



## Peet (May 21, 2007)

becky p said:
			
		

> There is only so much housing and so much room. Wouldnt it be better to campaign for better wages and conditions in the countries that people come from?



Yes.  For a start we could ditch the EU and scrap trade tarrifs on third world goods and give naval assistance to North Africa to sink Spanish trawlers


----------



## durruti02 (May 21, 2007)

Groucho said:
			
		

> But recent migrants do NOT get preference in social housing. Legal migrants are assessed on a par with everyone else.
> 
> Hodge went a bit further than even you have today in accepting parts of the BNP agenda. She stated today that migrants to Britain should not be treated equally with British citizens as regards social housing, but should be treated as second class citizens. When will people - and politicians especially - understand that accepting parts of the BNP argument does not weaken but strengthen the BNP?



not true/ you are wrong   and something we have been through on here i think on the immigration/thatcherism thread .. maybe you missed it 

thatcher changed housing allocation in favour of family size as opposed to local connections, and so a large migrant family will 'jump the queue' 

also she did not say that migrants should be treated like second class citizens. 

get your head around that supporting people where you live is NOT reactionary and the sooner the left do it the sooner the right will fade away


----------



## durruti02 (May 21, 2007)

Groucho said:
			
		

> It has been accepted that if people are legally here they should get the same entitlements as the rest of us. A change to that would be a major attack on people's rights. As it happens immigration creates more wealth than it costs. Without immigration the UK economy would suffer, the health service would collapse etc
> You mention pensions. As the UK population ages the ratio of pensioner to active worker increases - immigration is especially needed to increase the working age population precisely to fund pensions.



incredible .. a SWPer arguing the line of the bosses!!  

explain how the NHS would have collapsed??? there is full employment in this country is there!!!??????? there are 3 to 4 million out of work in this country ... but most will not work for SPIVUKincs wages .. and you peopel let the bosses then import cheap labour!! idiot!

fool .. the only reason we import labour is to save the middle/upper classes paying more tax .. to provide the spivs with bigger BMWs .. and you support this travesty!!!

importing cheap labour is colonialism .. it is RACISM .. it is 'lets get the darkies/slavs to do the dirty work' ...

you should be ashamed


----------



## durruti02 (May 21, 2007)

becky p said:
			
		

> I agree with you without immigration the health service would have collapsed years ago. But the present levels of immigration are IMO unsustainable. I know Teachers who struggle due to having so many kids in their classes who  speak English as a second language. Courts and Hospitals all need to spend more resources on interpreters.
> Councils up and down the country are struggling to cope with a huge influx of people wanting existing and new services.
> 
> There is only so much housing and so much room. Wouldnt it be better to campaign for better wages and conditions in the countries that people come from?



disagree re NHS .. there are enough people who would like to work there but not with spiv conditions/wages


----------



## audiotech (May 21, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> not true/ you are wrong   and something we have been through on here i think on the immigration/thatcherism thread .. maybe you missed it
> 
> thatcher changed housing allocation in favour of family size as opposed to local connections, and so a large migrant family will 'jump the queue'
> 
> ...



Priority is given to those with children and size only comes into it in relation to the house - one, two, three and four bedroomed properties. Overcrowding is a particular concern for authorities. The sex of the siblings is also taken into account with regards to number of bedrooms. 

Allocation is based on the individuals circumstances in relation to the property vacant. So, there are a multiple of reasons why someone will be allocated a property and another won't be.

As you can see, more complex than your "large migrant family will 'jump the queue'" comment.


----------



## durruti02 (May 21, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> Priority is given to those with children and size only comes into it in relation to the house - one, two, three and four bedroomed properties. Overcrowding is a particular concern for authorities. The sex of the siblings is also taken into account with regards to number of bedrooms.
> 
> Allocation is based on the individuals circumstances in relation to the property vacant. So, there are a multiple of reasons why someone will be allocated a property and another won't be.
> 
> As you can see, more complex than your "large migrant family will 'jump the queue'" comment.



yes i agree .. yes it is of course more complex ..  things always are   .. but the/my point is essentially right that under thatcher the balance changed from local connection to family size

i know this is intenet and it is hard to pick things up sometimes but i thought maybe you would realise that when i used ' jump the queue' in inverted commas it is to illustarte that that is how these things are percieved .. no one jumps .. we are all allocated


----------



## becky p (May 21, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> Really? I don't know how you worked that one out. How am I "pushing more people towards the BNP"? That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Anyone who advocates tighter controls shares the BNP's pov.
> 
> Oh, and Margaret Hodge protected kiddy fiddlers when she was Leader of Islington Council. She's barking mad...if you'll pardon the pun.



You are pushing people towards the BNP by insisting that anyone who questions the present levels of migration to the UK shares the same views as the BNP. Its an incredibly stupid thing to say. The BNPs opposition to immigration has always been based on race.
You have not posted one single bit of evidence that proves any of the very many people who disagree with doon the basis of their racism.

Oh, and the BNP probably said exactly the same about Margaret Hodge.
Which if i follow your reasoning means you have been helping them again.
Well done.


----------



## becky p (May 21, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> disagree re NHS .. there are enough people who would like to work there but not with spiv conditions/wages



But without higher taxes or cuts in other areas that can't happen.
So we should all be grateful that people come here to work for the NHS.


----------



## audiotech (May 22, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> yes i agree .. yes it is of course more complex ..  things always are   .. but the/my point is essentially right that under thatcher the balance changed from local connection to family size
> 
> i know this is intenet and it is hard to pick things up sometimes but i thought maybe you would realise that when i used ' jump the queue' in inverted commas it is to illustarte that that is how these things are percieved .. no one jumps .. we are all allocated



Different perception given here:



> There was also surprise that a Labour minister should be advocating priority for "indigenous" families. "Isn't that the BNP's line?" asked Mark Gutteridge, an unemployed 25-year-old who said he had been on the council housing list for around three years. Standing at the foot of a 12-storey block on the Gascoigne estate, he added: "They're not such great homes. The lifts don't work and the corridors smell of piss. But everyone who's asking for one of these places should be treated equally.
> http://politics.guardian.co.uk/homeaffairs/story/0,,2085206,00.html



*FAQ Social housing*

*How is social housing allocated?*

Local authorities must publish details of which groups have priority, generally using a points system. "Reasonable preference" must be given to categories including the homeless, those in insanitary, overcrowded or unsatisfactory housing, and people who need to move on medical or welfare grounds

*Can immigrants jump the queue?*

Some foreign nationals are eligible for social housing, but if they were considered a priority it would be because they were in an established category. Asylum seekers and those from outside the European Economic Area are not eligible. The former are generally given accommodation by the Home Office.

*Is there a shortage of social housing?*

There are about 4m homes in the social housing sector. The Liberal Democrats say there are 1.5 million families on council house waiting lists.

*What is being done about it?*

The government is aiming for 75,000 new social rented homes over the three years to April 2008; but it admits that provision this year will not meet all newly arising need.


----------



## nino_savatte (May 22, 2007)

Funnily enough, the only high profile type who agrees with durutti is Margaret Hodge. Says a lot really.


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## audiotech (May 22, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> Funnily enough, the only high profile type who agrees with durutti is Margaret Hodge. Says a lot really.



It does.


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## nino_savatte (May 22, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> It does.



LOL!!!


----------



## portman (May 22, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> Different perception given here:
> 
> *Is there a shortage of social housing?*
> 
> ...



Apologies for the selective quote but the last two points really did jump out. Particularly the 75,000 new social rented homes over three years. In a word, that is bloody pathetic. That level of completion is not even scratching the surface of the problem of a chronic shortage of affordable homes, whether to rent or buy. A problem caused by historic low levels of new home construction and one that isn't going to go away until those levels start to rise. Racking up the number of new home completions was an idea I was mooting while out on the doorstep during the election and got a positive response to. Rather than arguing about allocation policies - which is exactly what the BNP want us to do - calling for a vast increase in the building of new homes might get the agenda of the debate on a more progressive footing. Just a thought...


----------



## becky p (May 22, 2007)

portman said:
			
		

> Apologies for the selective quote but the last two points really did jump out. Particularly the 75,000 new social rented homes over three years. In a word, that is bloody pathetic. That level of completion is not even scratching the surface of the problem of a chronic shortage of affordable homes, whether to rent or buy. A problem caused by historic low levels of new home construction and one that isn't going to go away until those levels start to rise. Racking up the number of new home completions was an idea I was mooting while out on the doorstep during the election and got a positive response to. Rather than arguing about allocation policies - which ios exactly what the BNP want us to do - calling for a vast increase in the building of new homes might get the agenda of the debate on a more progressive footing. Just a thought...



Where would you build those homes though? And how progressive is it to argue that the UK should be taking more workers from other countries?


----------



## treelover (May 22, 2007)

The Trotskite left are dinosaurs and will soon disappear just as they did


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## nino_savatte (May 23, 2007)

treelover said:
			
		

> The Trotskite left are dinosaurs and will soon disappear just as they did



That's right, if one doesn't agree with your ideas on immigration, they are automatically labelled "trots". I suppose it's a change from the "enemy within" or some such nonsense.


----------



## durruti02 (May 26, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> It does.



the irony of this is that while i have been opposed hodge ( who is a typical m/c blairite scumbag who has seen her vote collapse due to her and her govts policies) and her ilk for many many years and try to organise independant opposition, *your policy in this area is that people should VOTE for her .. oh dear *:


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## nino_savatte (May 26, 2007)

So what does Hodge to do to fight the BNP? I'll tell you what she does - nothing.


----------



## durruti02 (May 26, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> So what does Hodge to do to fight the BNP? I'll tell you she does - nothing.



nino i agree with you 100% .. indeed worse .. she and her mates are the cause of the problems .. for her to some how suggest that immigranats just appear here and 'take peoples housing is a lie .. as John Cruddas next door as said the govt. is firmly behind the process as it tries to copy what he calls the low wage 'north american model' ... just cos some of what she says is correct doesn't mean  she is not a two faced  hypocrite


----------



## nino_savatte (May 26, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> nino i agree with you 100% .. indeed worse .. she and her mates are the cause of the problems .. for her to some how suggest that immigranats just appear here and 'take peoples housing is a lie .. as John Cruddas next door as said the govt. is firmly behind the process as it tries to copy what he calls the low wage 'north american model' ... just cos some of what she says is correct doesn't mean  she is not a two faced  hypocrite



Well, she wrings her hands and spews out some very inflammatory statements. She has never had much interest in people, she is interested in power and as a career politician, her sole objective is to cling onto her seat by any means necessary and lick the collective backside of the Leadership.


----------



## durruti02 (May 26, 2007)

treelover said:
			
		

> The Trotskite left are dinosaurs and will soon disappear just as they did



i wish it was as easy as this .. they have a strangle hold on what is called the left in this country .. respect uaf etc etc .. when a w/c person come s into contact with the left this is the nonsense  they get .. and it is disasterous .. anti w/c and pro state/cbi!! incredible no wonder people are going toward the bnp


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## nino_savatte (May 26, 2007)

I don't think that Trotskyites have a "stranglehold on the Left" in this country. I think people tend to exaggerate the importance and influence of the SWP in particular.


----------



## durruti02 (May 26, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> Well, she wrings her hands and spews out some very inflammatory statements. She has never had much interest in people, she is interested in power and as a career politician, her sole objective is to cling onto her seat by any means necessary and lick the collective backside of the Leadership.



nino again i agree with you 100% .. that is what these people do .. that does not mean we must ignore what they say .. we must look exactly at what they say and interpret their motives .. cynical she is yes but why did she choose what she said?? sadly because there is an element of truth .. it is that we need to understand /.. what scum like her and griffin USE .. we need to see what is right and how we can get a workerist angle in it .. on racism there is NO debate .. we are 100% opposed .. but on immigration and housing clearly there is a debate .. why it occurs who it effect and how and what is our response ..


----------



## nino_savatte (May 26, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> nino again i agree with you 100% .. that is what these people do .. that does not mean we must ignore what they say .. we must look exactly at what they say and interpret their motives .. cynical she is yes but why did she choose what she said?? sadly because there is an element of truth .. it is that we need to understand /.. what scum like her and griffin USE .. we need to see what is right and how we can get a workerist angle in it .. on racism there is NO debate .. we are 100% opposed .. but on immigration and housing clearly there is a debate .. why it occurs who it effect and how and what is our response ..



The trouble is, her contention that "immigrants" (sic) go to the top of the housing list is not supported by any evidence.

Again, there appears to be a problem with definitions: there is a quantifiable difference between immigrants, migrant workers and refugees. Is it right to force refugees to sleep on the street? These people have fled violence and oppression in their own countries and when they come here, they're treated like dreck and forced to live in detention camps like Campsfield.


----------



## durruti02 (May 26, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> The trouble is, her contention that "immigrants" (sic) go to the top of the housing list is not supported by any evidence.
> 
> Again, there appears to be a problem with definitions: there is a quantifiable difference between immigrants, migrant workers and refugees. Is it right to force refugees to sleep on the street? These people have fled violence and oppression in their own countries and when they come here, they're treated like dreck and forced to live in detention camps like Campsfield.



have you been to 'shut down campsfield' demos? i have so don't lecture me on that .. and no of course immigrants do not deserve shit .. all they are doing is trying to better themselves ,.. but due to neo lib policies they are victims .. but not just them .. indiginous workers are too 

please read what i post .. i have always been clear on teh differrence between migrnats and refugees and i have always said refugees should be looked after .. actually i would go further and suggest that unions and workers organisations should help them too 

the problem comes when people mostly better of, but whose standard of living is declining, see the left doing more for refugees and economic migrants than themselves .. this is the pickle the left have got into and means we/they are almost non existant in a whole swath of w/c britain 

re evidence on housing .. you are wrong .. the tories changed housing allocation in the early 8ts so that it favours more family size than local connections .. this has meant that an immigrant family with a number of kids will get housed before a young local couple .. in many ways this is right, there is clearly more IMMEDIATE need BUT it will cause resentment and does nothing for community sustainability . i would argue it should be managed locally ..

and fundamentally in it brings us back to the reason for economic migration in the first place in a country with millions unemployed .. it is not neccessary and only exists to make spivs money


----------



## nino_savatte (May 26, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> have you been to 'shut down campsfield' demos? i have so don't lecture me on that .. and no of course immigrants do not deserve shit .. all they are doing is trying to better themselves ,.. but due to neo lib policies they are victims .. but not just them .. indiginous workers are too
> 
> please read what i post .. i have always been clear on teh differrence between migrnats and refugees and i have always said refugees should be looked after .. actually i would go further and suggest that unions and workers organisations should help them too
> 
> ...



You're so fucking arrogant... "read what I post".  That's your reply for everything. 

You clearly do no know the difference between an immigrant, a migrant worker and a refugee because you constantly refer to immigrants as "migrants" and "refugees" as "immigrants"



> re evidence on housing .. you are wrong



I'd like to see your evidence that "immigrants" are being given priority over "whites" in social housing.  It's easy to say "you're wrong" but where is your proof?



> the problem comes when people mostly better of, but whose standard of living is declining, see the left doing more for refugees and economic migrants than themselves



What? What is being done for refugees? Bugger all, that's what. They're sent to detention camps or they're being pilloried in the tabloid press. What would you like to see? Refugees sleeping on the street? These people have fled conditions that none of us could ever imagine but what happens when they come here? They're scapegoated.


----------



## Knotted (May 26, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> You clearly do no know the difference between an immigrant, a migrant worker and a refugee because you constantly refer to immigrants as "migrants" and "refugees" as "immigrants"



There is no generally agreed upon definitions for these words. If you wish to define them in a certain way then make it clear.


----------



## nino_savatte (May 26, 2007)

Knotted said:
			
		

> There is no generally agreed upon definitions for these words. If you wish to define them in a certain way then make it clear.



Oh, catch yourself on. You really do spout some fucking shite, don't you?


----------



## durruti02 (May 26, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> You're so fucking arrogant... "read what I post".  That's your reply for everything.
> 
> You clearly do no know the difference between an immigrant, a migrant worker and a refugee because you constantly refer to immigrants as "migrants" and "refugees" as "immigrants"
> 
> ...



sorry??  arrogent??! you assume far to much i said *please* read what i have said as i felt you had not and hence got wrong what i was saying

re migrant or refgee, well it is not entirely clear .. i see it as a refugee is someone fleeing a physical danger as opposed to an economic migrant who chooses ( relucantly usually) to migrate to get money or a better life .. of course there are grey areas .. 

re housing first i do not understand why you mention 'whites' i certainly have not .. indeed where i am a majority of local people are BME .. this is the community i always have at the back of my mind .. 

and again i have not said what you suggest .. i have not said that per se immigrnats get priority over locals ...  what i have said is that there is however much  evidence that immigrants, with families, in immediate need ( so NOT immigrants without families and not in need) get priority over locals without families and NOT in immediate need. This is well known and there has been much discussion about it over the last 20 years .. links to i have previosly posted 

i don't understand your last paragaph at all though. Is it aimed at me?????  .. i entirely agree with you it is a disgrace refugees are treated ..  i have JUST posted that  i support/have been at  'shut down campsfield' etc and i believe unions and communities should help house refugees, as well as the state, so i have to say that yet again you appear not to have read what i am saying


----------



## durruti02 (May 26, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> Oh, catch yourself on. You really do spout some fucking shite, don't you?



nino .. please  .. try to not assume the worst .. just say to yourself that knotted is asking you for your definitions and do just that .. in fact knotted and LnL and all lets *all* try to stop tit for tat? yes??


----------



## portman (May 26, 2007)

becky p said:
			
		

> Where would you build those homes though? And how progressive is it to argue that the UK should be taking more workers from other countries?



When it comes to the area I live, Thurrock, the answer's simple - on the Green Belt. Okay, I'm not advocating covering every square mile of the countryside in buildings but there are plenty of acres of Green Belt land in Thurrock whose only purpose is to stifle the development of any new housing. I'm talking about almost treeless semi-moonscapes with hedges full of flytipped rubbish and fields dotted with abandoned, burnt out vehicles. Land that has no aesthetic value at all. Land that could be used to build the homes we need, with all the infrastructure for a successful community, and with parks and trees included in the process of development.

When I was out canvassing for the IWCA during the local elections, rather than get into a debate about how what little social housing is left gets allocated, I was turning the discussion around to how few homes are actually getting built. Many people did agree with the commonsense solution of building more homes. 

While the BNP bang on about the unfairness of housing allocation policy, in the same manifesto, the numbskulls oppose the one solution to the problem - building homes on the Green Belt! As did UKIP as well. The only people who are going to benefit from that are those who own their homes and see them as an investment for their future. The kind of people who see any possibility of new large scale housing development threatening their interests. People with a 'pull up the drawbridge' mentality. Bitter Mail and Express readers - classic targets for the far right.


----------



## durruti02 (May 26, 2007)

portman said:
			
		

> When it comes to the area I live, Thurrock, the answer's simple - on the Green Belt. Okay, I'm not advocating covering every square mile of the countryside in buildings but there are plenty of acres of Green Belt land in Thurrock whose only purpose is to stifle the development of any new housing. I'm talking about almost treeless semi-moonscapes with hedges full of flytipped rubbish and fields dotted with abandoned, burnt out vehicles. Land that has no aesthetic value at all. Land that could be used to build the homes we need, with all the infrastructure for a successful community, and with parks and trees included in the process of development.
> 
> When I was out canvassing for the IWCA during the local elections, rather than get into a debate about how what little social housing is left gets allocated, I was turning the discussion around to how few homes are actually getting built. Many people did agree with the commonsense solution of building more homes.
> 
> While the BNP bang on about the unfairness of housing allocation policy, in the same manifesto, the numbskulls oppose the one solution to the problem - building homes on the Green Belt! As did UKIP as well. The only people who are going to benefit from that are those who own their homes and see them as an investment for their future. The kind of people who see any possibility of new large scale housing development threatening their interests. People with a 'pull up the drawbridge' mentality. Bitter Mail and Express readers - classic targets for the far right.



Hi portman 

i have to say i would be against building in the green belt too, speaking selfishly as a inner city dweller who finds the countryside getting further and further away. I understand the poor nature of the plain where you are, but it would be put to better use for food for local communities maybe with small associated villages. Tbh they are already plannning tens of thousends of new houses in Thames Gateway. 

politicaly though the issue is NOT housing. There is no shortage of housing in the north. Indeed the Pathfinder scheme wants to bulldoze hundreds of thousends of houses. What is the issue is that the south east is over heated by the City. This has both drawn in immigrants ( uk and outside) and seen City boys investing their million pound bonuses in sepeculative housing schemes. London conceivably could expand for years to come. Politically i would think this needs to be stated/challenged. 

i would argue that while resources are still limited we still need to argue that local connection should get more ( not total) priority. I also think we need to be capable of arguing about the unneccessary nature or current immigration, and how it is used to get out of training and employing our youth


----------



## nino_savatte (May 27, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> nino .. please  .. try to not assume the worst .. just say to yourself that knotted is asking you for your definitions and do just that .. in fact knotted and LnL and all lets *all* try to stop tit for tat? yes??



Well, he (as well as you) appear to have a problem differentiating between immigrants, refugees and migrant workers.

Knotted is playing silly buggers - as usual.


----------



## nino_savatte (May 27, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> sorry??  arrogent??! you assume far to much i said *please* read what i have said as i felt you had not and hence got wrong what i was saying
> 
> re migrant or refgee, well it is not entirely clear .. i see it as a refugee is someone fleeing a physical danger as opposed to an economic migrant who chooses ( relucantly usually) to migrate to get money or a better life .. of course there are grey areas ..
> 
> ...



You fail to understand that when many people say "British", they are often referring specifically to white British people.



> re migrant or refgee, well it is not entirely clear .. i see it as a refugee is someone fleeing a physical danger as opposed to an economic migrant who chooses ( relucantly usually) to migrate to get money or a better life .. of course there are grey areas ..



I think it is pretty clear what the difference is between all three groups. It's pretty obvious what a migrant worker is, for example.

The wealthy are economic migrants...you might call them "tax exiles" but they take their money out of the country and seek a better life for themselve elsewhere. Oddly enough, no one ever talks about the flight of capital but, instead, scapegoat those people who have nothing.

I'm not sure what you're saying here and it appears to be contradictory.


> and again i have not said what you suggest .. i have not said that per se immigrnats get priority over locals ...  what i have said is that there is however much  evidence that immigrants, with families, in immediate need ( so NOT immigrants without families and not in need) get priority over locals without families and NOT in immediate need. This is well known and there has been much discussion about it over the last 20 years .. links to i have previosly posted



First, where are these "links" and second, I noticed that you'd added a proviso. You have also stated that you "have not said that per se immigrnats get priority over locals", so what are you saying?


----------



## durruti02 (May 27, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> Well, he (as well as you) appear to have a problem differentiating between immigrants, refugees and migrant workers.
> 
> Knotted is playing silly buggers - as usual.



i gave an interpretation above .. does yours differ and if so how


----------



## durruti02 (May 27, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> 1)You fail to understand that when many people say "British", they are often referring specifically to white British people.
> 
> 2)I think it is pretty clear what the difference is between all three groups. It's pretty obvious what a migrant worker is, for example.
> 
> ...




1) nino i am VERY aware of the use of words .. however i have made it plain to you that MY area is mixed and that when I say locals or british i mean WHOEVER lives in that place at that time. so from now on that is understood?? 

2) what do you think of my definition?

3) good points. and actually it is something i have pointed out ever since 1979, that the very first thing maggie did was allow the rich to take their money out of the country . i do not think it healthy though so many ordinary people with skills and community links are moving abroad and you were right to start a thread about that

4) no, i have read it again .. it is right .. the crucial issue is that a local couple who need housing will NOT be in AS MUCH NEED as an immigrant family with more kids and in shitty private accomodation. and yes on one leel this is correct on another it is not

and so 5) no, there is no proviso that is it .. the tories changed how claims were weighed in fabour of family over local connection

i'll look for the links again


----------



## durruti02 (May 27, 2007)

two interesting links .. can't fi nd yet what i had before and the govt doesn't put up Housing Acts before 1988!

the first a housing law blog which shows hodges hypocrisy and lies about new immgrants but also confirms what i am saying generally about allocation 


http://nearlylegal.co.uk/blog/archives/category/law/housing-law/

and the second from the authors of the East End book year

"Bangladeshi families were overcrowded, and many felt that the promises made under the official allocation system were not honoured.

Whites, meanwhile, felt that the system of prioritising housing allocation - once predicated on a waiting list that gave weight to applicants with local and community connections but which now privileged the most "needy" - unduly favoured Bangladeshi families."


http://society.guardian.co.uk/socialexclusion/story/0,,1704158,00.html


----------



## durruti02 (May 27, 2007)

http://www.communities.gov.uk/embedded_object.asp?id=1150719.

this has a lot of relevent info, from p.46 on particularly page 49 and 55. Non-priority needs is the area that is so disputed .. see 5.48 on page 55

still no reference to what i and others have seen before about the change of weighting of needs .. maybe i am wrong and it is the 77 act that people have got confused about .. i thought it was bundled with the 1980 right to buy act or it was some statutory instrument/amendment later. .. looking at the 1996 act though this appears to do the oppsite of what i am suggestting while the 2002 act appears to do what i am suggestting!


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## The Black Hand (May 27, 2007)

Some nazis leaking video here - Mark Collett is shatting his pants  hahahaha serves the wanna be stormtrooper right

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/regions/leedsbradford/2007/05/371566.html?c=on#c174629


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## nino_savatte (May 28, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> i gave an interpretation above .. does yours differ and if so how



There is a big difference but I noticed that you'd added "economic migrants", which is another ideologically loaded term (often used in blanket fashion, like the term "asylum seeker").

A refugee is not the same as your "economic migrant". Even Phil Collins was an economic migrant at one stage in his life. You'd call him a "tax exile".

So what is your point?


----------



## nino_savatte (May 28, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> 1) nino i am VERY aware of the use of words .. however i have made it plain to you that MY area is mixed and that when I say locals or british i mean WHOEVER lives in that place at that time. so from now on that is understood??
> 
> 2) what do you think of my definition?
> 
> ...



You keep saying how "mixed" your area is. though, I suspect, that there are many in your area who don't approve of certain types of ethnic groups.


> what do you think of my definition?



It's a fudge.



> 4) no, i have read it again .. it is right .. the crucial issue is that a local couple who need housing will NOT be in AS MUCH NEED as an immigrant family with more kids and in shitty private accomodation. and yes on one leel this is correct on another it is not



I see no concrete evidence of this. I worked in the housing departments of three local authorities and I also worked for a few housing associations an, at no time, did I see so-called "migrants" taking priority over those who had been on the waiting list before them. If anything, *these people were being put up in shitty B&B's for extended periods of time.* Remember that local authorities have a duty under the law to provide accomodation for those who have nowhere to live.


----------



## nino_savatte (May 28, 2007)

I wonder if anyone remembers how the press (and others) reacted to the news that thousands of Ugandan Asians were due to arrive in the country, after having fled from the tyrannical regimke of Idi Amin.

It was a disgrace.


----------



## becky p (May 28, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> I wonder if anyone remembers how the press (and others) reacted to the news that thousands of Ugandan Asians were due to arrive in the country, after having fled from the tyrannical regimke of Idi Amin.
> 
> It was a disgrace.



But what has that got to do with anything? Has anybody been saying it was a good thing? 
And you do know there is a difference between people fleeing brutal dictatorships and people coming for better paid jobs.


----------



## Knotted (May 29, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> Well, he (as well as you) appear to have a problem differentiating between immigrants, refugees and migrant workers.
> 
> Knotted is playing silly buggers - as usual.



If you are interested in how I use a word then you could ask me. What I said was true about there being no generally agreed on definitions for these words.

Edit to add: I'll correct myself. There is a legal definition of the word 'refugee', but not 'immigrant' or 'migrant'. The latter are used in different ways by different people. Its confusing, yes, but we can get round the confusion by explaining what we mean more carefully if necessary. Its quite reasonable to say some refugees are immigrants - its not the usual use of the term when applied to an individual refugee, but when talking about immigration in general its quite normal.

Anyway this thread is too important to be bogged down in pedantry and sniping.


----------



## nino_savatte (May 29, 2007)

Knotted said:
			
		

> If you are interested in how I use a word then you could ask me. What I said was true about there being no generally agreed on definitions for these words.
> 
> Edit to add: I'll correct myself. There is a legal definition of the word 'refugee', but not 'immigrant' or 'migrant'. The latter are used in different ways by different people. Its confusing, yes, but we can get round the confusion by explaining what we mean more carefully if necessary. Its quite reasonable to say some refugees are immigrants - its not the usual use of the term when applied to an individual refugee, but when talking about immigration in general its quite normal.
> 
> Anyway this thread is too important to be bogged down in pedantry and sniping.



You can't help yourself, can you? If you aren't sniping or making snide remarks, you're being patronising. There is no confusion over the definition of those words, you have made it so because you want to 'win' the argument.

It's pretty shabby.


----------



## dash_two (May 29, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> Anyone who advocates tighter controls shares the BNP's pov.



Only if they advocate tighter controls based on racial discrimination. The BNP are much more than an anti-immigration party. Race is as fundamental to their point-of-view as class is to Marxists.

The last thing the BNP wants to see is a modest and sustainable level of immigration set using 'colour-blind' criteria.


----------



## tbaldwin (May 29, 2007)

dash_two said:
			
		

> Only if they advocate tighter controls based on racial discrimination. The BNP are much more than an anti-immigration party. Race is as fundamental to their point-of-view as class is to Marxists.
> 
> The last thing the BNP wants to see is a modest and sustainable level of immigration set using 'colour-blind' criteria.



Exactly something certain people seem to want to ignore.


----------



## JimPage (May 29, 2007)

back on to BNP Strategy, they seem to be continuing the electoral road (by elections in Newcastle and Brigg) and going in for local activities between elections in a much more systematic way- with locally produced materials


----------



## The Black Hand (May 29, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> back on to BNP Strategy, they seem to be continuing the electoral road (by elections in Newcastle and Brigg) and going in for local activities between elections in a much more systematic way- with locally produced materials



What info have you about Newcastle?

Also, look at this - a success for anti fascism 

http://libcom.org/forums/anti-fascism/secret-bnp-meeting-stopped-anti-fascists-bath


----------



## nino_savatte (May 30, 2007)

dash_two said:
			
		

> Only if they advocate tighter controls based on racial discrimination. The BNP are much more than an anti-immigration party. Race is as fundamental to their point-of-view as class is to Marxists.
> 
> The last thing the BNP wants to see is a modest and sustainable level of immigration set using 'colour-blind' criteria.



The thing that you and my dear friend, baldwin conveniently overlook is the fact that racial discrimination always becomes part of the thinking with regards to immigration controls. Most w/c class pople who demand such controls often do so out of ignorance and bigotry.You may not like that but it's the truth.


----------



## nino_savatte (May 30, 2007)

tbaldwin said:
			
		

> Exactly something certain people seem to want to ignore.



Like you would wilfully ignore the racism that comes with the demands for tighter immigration controls, because in your mad world, you'd shoot anyone who wears glasses.


----------



## JimPage (May 30, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> What info have you about Newcastle?
> 
> Newcastle Wingate ward 14th June
> 
> ...


----------



## durruti02 (May 30, 2007)

dash_two said:
			
		

> Only if they advocate tighter controls based on racial discrimination. The BNP are much more than an anti-immigration party. Race is as fundamental to their point-of-view as class is to Marxists.
> 
> The last thing the BNP wants to see is a modest and sustainable level of immigration set using 'colour-blind' criteria.



yes dash 2 .. i thought this was obvious but some people seem not to understand this ..


----------



## durruti02 (May 30, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> The thing that you and my dear friend, baldwin conveniently overlook is the fact that racial discrimination always becomes part of the thinking with regards to immigration controls. Most w/c class pople who demand such controls often do so out of ignorance and bigotry.You may not like that but it's the truth.



nino no one overlooks the racial overtones of debate on immigration .. it is precisely of this that we are looking for a progressive way around it all .. to deracialise it .. 

and there is no evidence that racial discrimination 'always' becomes part of thinking wth regards to mmigration controls. if there is you must give evidence. I have said to you over and over that in the part of north london i am in it is black afro caribean families sufferring from the policies of neoliberalism and the spivs, who are importing white workers to to do the work that local ( black) kids should be getting, on decent money.

you are right though that that many who demand such controls are bigots. This proves nothing, but adds to my insistence we have a progressive class based stance on how to deal with the FACT that immigration is currently being used for cheap labour policies .. precisely, that if we do not have something usefull and constructive to say that understands the material affect this is having, then sure as hell the BNP will exploit the situation


----------



## durruti02 (May 30, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> I see no concrete evidence of this. I worked in the housing departments of three local authorities and I also worked for a few housing associations an, at no time, did I see so-called "migrants" taking priority over those who had been on the waiting list before them. If anything, *these people were being put up in shitty B&B's for extended periods of time.* Remember that local authorities have a duty under the law to provide accomodation for those who have nowhere to live.



so how then do immigrants get council housing as they so clearly have done?? .. 

you give a clue at the end .. a duty to provide .. and i will repeat, that a young couple at their parnets homes will NOT then take priority will they?

anyhow first things first .. as an ex housing officer tell us how then immigrants get council houses/flats .. 

p.s. no one else has mentionned this but private lets in RTB houses/lats is suspect houses many .. would be interestinig to see figures for Barking re this ..


----------



## durruti02 (May 30, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> It's a fudge..


why


----------



## nino_savatte (May 31, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> so how then do immigrants get council housing as they so clearly have done?? ..
> 
> you give a clue at the end .. a duty to provide .. and i will repeat, that a young couple at their parnets homes will NOT then take priority will they?
> 
> ...



I'd like to see some evidence for your continued assertions that "immigrants" are being given priority in social housing. In fact, I asked you to provide some evidence and you have, typically, been rather reluctant.

You obfuscate and you divert.


----------



## nino_savatte (May 31, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> nino no one overlooks the racial overtones of debate on immigration .. it is precisely of this that we are looking for a progressive way around it all .. to deracialise it ..
> 
> and there is no evidence that racial discrimination 'always' becomes part of thinking wth regards to mmigration controls. if there is you must give evidence. I have said to you over and over that in the part of north london i am in it is black afro caribean families sufferring from the policies of neoliberalism and the spivs, who are importing white workers to to do the work that local ( black) kids should be getting, on decent money.
> 
> you are right though that that many who demand such controls are bigots. This proves nothing, but adds to my insistence we have a progressive class based stance on how to deal with the FACT that immigration is currently being used for cheap labour policies .. precisely, that if we do not have something usefull and constructive to say that understands the material affect this is having, then sure as hell the BNP will exploit the situation



Your attempt to prove yourself correct has you reaching for the shotgun in an effort to hit the bullseye.



> no one overlooks the racial overtones of debate on immigration .. it is precisely of this that we are looking for a progressive way around it all .. to deracialise it ..



Really? I don't believe you. You and your pals talk about immigration in terms of "British people" or "white working class". These are rather veiled expressions; a way of claiming that immigrants are getting preferential treatment. The trouble is, neither you nor your pals are able to differentiate between migrant workers, refugees and immigrants. To you, they are all the same and they are here taking our housing, our shitty low-paid jobs and fucking our women.


----------



## dash_two (May 31, 2007)

Any immigration policy other than that of open borders must necessarily involve some form of regulation.

Nino, I am not sure whether you are an open borders advocate or not, but is it your position that anything short of open borders will inevitably lead to racial discrimination?


----------



## nino_savatte (May 31, 2007)

dash_two said:
			
		

> Any immigration policy other than that of open borders must necessarily involve some form of regulation.
> 
> Nino, I am not sure whether you are an open borders advocate or not, but is it your position that anything short of open borders will inevitably lead to racial discrimination?



My position is anti-statist. I thought that I'd made this clear.


----------



## dash_two (May 31, 2007)

Maybe not on this thread. But I can see that anti-statism would be predicted from support for open borders and vice versa.


----------



## durruti02 (May 31, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> I'd like to see some evidence for your continued assertions that "immigrants" are being given priority in social housing. In fact, I asked you to provide some evidence and you have, typically, been rather reluctant.
> 
> You obfuscate and you divert.



but they obviously do don't they! As i posted, not you, the mechanism HODGE  claims is behind this is though incorrect. 

are you suggesting NO immigrants have received social housing in this country in the last 10 years?

to refute hodges/bnp lies it seems fairly obvious we need to be clear in this. 

you say you have working in housing .. do us a favour and tell us how it works ..


----------



## durruti02 (May 31, 2007)

dash_two said:
			
		

> Any immigration policy other than that of open borders must necessarily involve some form of regulation.



however the choice is state regulation or workers regulation .. unions/workers should assert that only local peole should be employed 

border controls are irrelevant to the power of capital .. look here and look at america where the almost militarised border with mexico has minimal affect on stoppping northward migration


----------



## durruti02 (May 31, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> *Really? I don't believe you. You and your pals talk about immigration in terms of "British people" or "white working class". These are rather veiled expressions; a way of claiming that immigrants are getting preferential treatment. The trouble is, neither you nor your pals are able to differentiate between migrant workers, refugees and immigrants. To you, they are all the same and they are here taking our housing, our shitty low-paid jobs and fucking our women*.



troll!!   fucking idiot!!

am reportin this post .. you are lying, smearing, misrepresenting and trying to destroy threads you do not approve of ..  you are a sad old stalinist whose failed politics we are trying to pick up the pieces of  .. 


p.s. i asked before .. if my categorisation is wrong re migrants ( looking for work)/refugees ( fleeing war oppression) (you never actually said WHY you thought it was wrong) what is yours??


----------



## durruti02 (May 31, 2007)

i have reported ninos post above (355 )

i don't like to do things behind peoples backs so .. this is what i said 

"Hi mods .. i am reporting this post .. nino is deliberately .. and for the hundreth time ...  causing shit by accusing  me of racism and when i give clear evidence to the contrary again and again calling me a liar. ok so i can ignore that. (essentially i and many believe he tries to deliberately disrupt threads that he has a problem with)

 BUT here with this post i have had enough . particularly the abusive shit about women at the bottom of this post .. this wanker is abusing the anonimity of the web to be abusive .. and i have to say he consistently gets away with it .. cheers D!"


----------



## becky p (May 31, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> Your attempt to prove yourself correct has you reaching for the shotgun in an effort to hit the bullseye.
> 
> 
> 
> Really? I don't believe you. You and your pals talk about immigration in terms of "British people" or "white working class". These are rather veiled expressions; a way of claiming that immigrants are getting preferential treatment. The trouble is, neither you nor your pals are able to differentiate between migrant workers, refugees and immigrants. To you, they are all the same and they are here taking our housing, our shitty low-paid jobs and fucking our women.


 nino 
Have you got any Black friends?


----------



## dash_two (Jun 1, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> look here and look at america where the almost militarised border with mexico has minimal affect on stoppping northward migration



The US government does not appear to be particularly serious about stopping Mexican immigration. The fences and patrols are probably just a cosmetic sop to redneck opinion. (I think the distinction between 'legal' and 'illegal' immigration is a bogus one btw.) Certainly most Americans don't think that the current immigration bill being debated in the Senate will have any real effect on the situation:

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/just_16_believe_senate_bill_will_reduce_illegal_immigration

Of more interest is the situation in Finland, which you might guess would be chock-full of Russians seeking work nowadays. But numbers of Russian immigrants remain fairly modest and it is doubtful that this is down to the Finns having some super-effective border fence. More likely it is because the Finnish labour market is very highly regulated. 

Beyond that, the Finns seem to have a reasonably successful economy and society (at least in terms of wealth distribution, health and crime stats), so it's not obvious what they would need lots of immigration for. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.


----------



## nino_savatte (Jun 1, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> troll!!   fucking idiot!!
> 
> am reportin this post .. you are lying, smearing, misrepresenting and trying to destroy threads you do not approve of ..  you are a sad old stalinist whose failed politics we are trying to pick up the pieces of  ..
> 
> ...



Who's trolling? What is there to report in my post? You're getting a wee bit carried away with yourself, aren't you? Just because you can't get your own way, you make up things about my post that do not exist. You're a fantasist, durutti as this quote of your shows.



> you are a sad old stalinist whose failed politics we are trying to pick up the pieces of  ..



I'm a "Stalinist"? It's pretty clear that you don't know what a Stalinist is. Would a Stalinist speak out against centralised state control? Would a Stalinist have libertarian impulses? All of this from someone who had "admired" the RCP. 

It is rather obvious what a migrant worker is and it is all too obvious what an immigrant is.  You tried to slip and slide around with your definitions. 

You accuse me of "lying", "smearing" and "misrepresenting" but these are the things that you do. You project again and again. Why do you have to make up things? Why are you so defensive?


----------



## nino_savatte (Jun 1, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> i have reported ninos post above (355 )
> 
> i don't like to do things behind peoples backs so .. this is what i said
> 
> ...



Hmmm, maybe I should report the post where you C&Ped beckyp's post into my quote. There is nothing, nothing at all my post that is worthy of the mod's attentions. You're a wee bit too sensitive durutti...either that or I've got you rattled; touched a raw nerve. 

You don't like the truth, do you?

Oh and where did I "accuse" you of racism, you sad wee shaver?  You're a fantasist.


----------



## treelover (Jun 1, 2007)

Yes, the way the insufferable 'anti-statist' (btw, what makes you think that minority position gives you any more credence) NINO accuses people with a different view from him of racism, a powerful denunciation that shouldn't be used lightly, is increasingly becoming intolerable and not condusive to a decent debate here on urban, 

temp ban?


----------



## nino_savatte (Jun 1, 2007)

treelover said:
			
		

> Yes, the way the insufferable 'anti-statist' (btw, what makes you think that minority position gives you any more credence) NINO accuses people with a different view from him of racism, a powerful denunciation that shouldn't be used lightly, is increasingly becoming intolerable and not condusive to a decent debate here on urban,
> 
> temp ban?



You dominate this forum with your views on immigration and now they are being challenged. Sorry but this is the grown up world. Calling for me to be banned is a sure sign of your immaturity.


----------



## audiotech (Jun 1, 2007)

Your job is done here Nino. Well done indeed.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 1, 2007)

Yes, i agree MC5, there is a real *nino problem* with this forum - i suspect his frenzied approach (smear, shout, twist, lie, cry, prod and push) is partly why this forum is so dead and serious discussion is rare.


----------



## audiotech (Jun 1, 2007)

torres said:
			
		

> Yes, i agree MC5, there is a real *nino problem* with this forum - i suspect his frenzied approach (smear, shout, twist, lie, cry, prod and push) is partly why this forum is so dead and serious discussion is rare.



The actual 'problem' here is with people like yourself misrepresenting other people's posts. Just like you did to mine as an example.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 1, 2007)

Nah, it's not - and you know full well it's not. Nino had made a total idiot of himself on here for your benefit. All he's achieved is people steering clear of him and the forum - suspect that's what he wanted though and it's a siutation that you're more than happy with. He has ruined just about every thread on here on the last 6 months by calling people racists, trots, trolls, telling them to fuck off, telling them to get off his thread, telling them to FOAD, lying about their posts, pretending to put them on ignore when they'd cornered him. Yeah - just what this forum needed. Someone trying to shut down debate that they personally don't like.

It's pathetic.


----------



## durruti02 (Jun 1, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> Your job is done here Nino. Well done indeed.



you have never said a more honest word MC .. between the two of you but aprticularly nino you have lied twisted made smeared continually sabotaged thread after thread 

you claim to want debate but any time anyone posts articles stats research you ignore it .. 


i have tried consistently to engage nino .. see one of my latest threads 

e.g. if the BNP are using housing to get  votes WE need to be totally clear about what is true and what is NOT .. nino kept it under his hat until a few ays ago that he was for many years in housing .. but will he then share his knowledeg with us??? like fuck .. he and you believe any poitis outside of your narrow agenda is suspect .. so NO engagement but disruption .. oathetic really pathetic 

p.s. i notice your gloating new tag .. mob rule .. sad ..


----------



## durruti02 (Jun 1, 2007)

p.s. MC5 .. is this acceptable? no wonder the left is fucked with people like you and nino as part of it .. you prove everything i say about it 

*"To you, they are all the same and they are here taking our housing, our shitty low-paid jobs and fucking our women"*


----------



## audiotech (Jun 1, 2007)

torres said:
			
		

> Nah, it's not - and you know full well it's not. Nino had made a total idiot of himself on here for your benefit. All he's achieved is people steering clear of him and the forum - suspect that's what he wanted though and it's a siutation that you're more than happy with. He has ruined just about every thread on here on the last 6 months by calling people racists, trots, trolls, telling them to fuck off, telling them to get off his thread, telling them to FOAD, lying about their posts, pretending to put them on ignore when they'd cornered him. Yeah - just what this forum needed. Someone trying to shut down debate that they personally don't like.
> 
> It's pathetic.



"Nah, it's not."?

I can't believe you've just posted that when you've just blatently distorted what I'd written.

These boards will be much better in debate, discussion and every other which way, when those who frequently stamp their feet and shout the loudest, when challenged in debate, fuck off.


----------



## audiotech (Jun 1, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> p.s. MC5 .. is this acceptable? no wonder the left is fucked with people like you and nino as part of it .. you prove everything i say about it
> 
> *"To you, they are all the same and they are here taking our housing, our shitty low-paid jobs and fucking our women"*



I think nino was making a somewhat ironic point about the direction of your politics which seems to have gone over your big head.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 1, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> "Nah, it's not."?
> 
> I can't believe you've just posted that when you've just blatently distorted what I'd written.
> 
> These boards will be much better in debate, discussion and every other which way, when those who frequently stamp their feet and shout the loudest, when challenged in debate, fuck off.



FFS, i took what you said and made joke out of it. Remember them things? Or are you too busy prodding your fingers into peoples chests and nodding your head whilst nino calls them racist. (Don't quite do it yourself do you?)

I think nino going on ignore from number of people might actually open up some space for real debate here. He's proven that he'll fquoite conscioulsly fuck up debate that he doesn't like (and you'll clap him as he deoes it)  so there's not many other options. Anyone?


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 1, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> I think nino was making a somewhat ironic point about the direction of your politics which seems to have gone over your big head.



No he wasn't - he was directly comparing d. to racist knuckleheads and their slogans and approach. It was disgusting and a pathetic position for anyone who calls themselves an anti-fascist and who posts on a politics forum to take - and given that he's already been banned once for that sort of stuff he's sailing very close to the wind. But it's entirely in character with what i've seen off him on these threads.


----------



## audiotech (Jun 1, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> p.s. i notice your gloating new tag .. mob rule .. sad ..



"gloating new tag"?   

It's a tune: BLACK SABBATH. The Mob Rules (Warner Bros). I liked it because the tabloids usually write "MOB RULE".

Black Sabbath also wrote PARANOID.


----------



## audiotech (Jun 1, 2007)

torres said:
			
		

> FFS, i took what you said and made joke out of it. Remember them things? Or are you too busy prodding your fingers into peoples chests and nodding your head whilst nino calls them racist. (Don't quite do it yourself do you?)



Ha, Ha. How droll.

nino_savette will answer your point about the alleged 'racist taunt' I'm sure. Unless you have him on ignore of course?


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 1, 2007)

Will he - i'm not very confident of that given his sustained inability to answer anyone elses points or engage in any serious debate for months on end. Deny it, despite the massive weight of evidence i'm sure he will though.


----------



## durruti02 (Jun 1, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> I think nino was making a somewhat ironic point about the direction of your politics which seems to have gone over your big head.



there you have it .. so in your book too, trying to understand how we can oppose the bosses using and abusing immigrants, and workers here, is the same as saying *"To you, they are all the same and they are here taking our housing, our shitty low-paid jobs and fucking our women"*

mc .. you are little better tbh .. you and vp have too gone in for nasty ignorent little digs .. it is tragic that this is your contribution to debates on how we deal with the rise of facism in this country .. i even asked you to tell us more about what worked in oldham but you did not .. you prefer your meaningless one liners


----------



## audiotech (Jun 1, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> there you have it .. so in your book too, trying to understand how we can oppose the bosses using and abusing immigrants, and workers here, is the same as saying *"To you, they are all the same and they are here taking our housing, our shitty low-paid jobs and fucking our women"*
> 
> mc .. you are little better tbh .. you and vp have too gone in for nasty ignorent little digs .. it is tragic that this is your contribution to debates on how we deal with the rise of facism in this country .. i even asked you to tell us more about what worked in oldham but you did not .. you prefer your meaningless one liners



But you are constantly arguing for further immigration controls. That means you line up with the far-right, which can only lead to more exploitation from the bosses surely?

I'm sorry to have to disappoint you, but it's not 'debates' that will deal with the rise of facism in this country.

Oldham? That was many moons ago. You never said at the time that you wanted to know more. If memory serves me right I think it was quite a long reply to your question, that covered most, if not all of your points.


----------



## durruti02 (Jun 1, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> But you are constantly arguing for further immigration controls. That means you line up with the far-right, which can only lead to more exploitation from the bosses surely?
> 
> I'm sorry to have to disappoint you, but it's not 'debates' that will deal with the rise of facism in this country.
> 
> Oldham? That was many moons ago. You never said at the time that you wanted to know more. If memory serves me right I think it was quite a long reply to your question, that covered most, if not all of your points.



MC sorry but are you dim or mischevious? 

i have not anywhere at anytime argued for STATE immigration controls .. i have sought to get debate on how immigration CURRENTLY fits into neoliberalism and have alleged that it has been used to undermine wages and workers organisation. 

i have further consistently said that i believe immigration controls are dangerous and simply are to discipline us all and that immigration controls do not control immigration anyway .. i do not believe in national/state borders .. but i do belive in the right of communities to decide who and how people shoud live in those communities

i HAVE argued that workers should not allow bosses to cut wages and jobs using any labour and that includes migrant labour .. and i have argued that workers should put pressure on bosses to employ locally as we have c3million unemployed .. and that any campaign to expose what is going on should be quiet clear that it is not the fault of migrants but of spiv and cowboy bosses  .. andi have made it abundantly clear that i see this as part of a campaign to rebuild workers/peoples power at work and in communities with the am of fundamentally changing society progressively

and consistently i have argued that this wave of immigration shows the contempt the state/new labour etc have for all people, those here now and migrants. and that indeed it is racist .. get the blacks and slavs in to do our dirty work .. i have also consistently argues that we should be a society that takes in refugees

how on earth you can say this is in anyway close to a far right position is totally and utterly absurd .. i even started a thread  to show this ..  that the far right simply take a bourgois and racist position on immigration  .. they are NOT against immigration but against non white immigration .. they do not even mention any of what i say about workers stopping  bosses undercuting wages and unions .. letalone rebuilding unions!!!

and why i suggest you are dim or mischevious is i have pointed this out to you on countless occasions .. so why do ou keep repeating it?


apologies but i did not notice your reply re oldham .. i will look for it .. if you can remember where it is please tell me


----------



## nino_savatte (Jun 2, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> there you have it .. so in your book too, trying to understand how we can oppose the bosses using and abusing immigrants, and workers here, is the same as saying *"To you, they are all the same and they are here taking our housing, our shitty low-paid jobs and fucking our women"*
> 
> mc .. you are little better tbh .. you and vp have too gone in for nasty ignorent little digs .. it is tragic that this is your contribution to debates on how we deal with the rise of facism in this country .. i even asked you to tell us more about what worked in oldham but you did not .. you prefer your meaningless one liners



You lack a sense of irony, durutti. Furthermore, like the rest of your mates, you get touchy at the slightest thing yet, you feel that you're the only one entitled to dole out insults...while accusing others of being "nasty". 

You understand what a "hypocrite is, don't you?  

Maybe I should have used a  but, no matter. I actually enjoy watching you thrash about like a madman.


----------



## Knotted (Jun 2, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> You lack a sense of irony, durutti. Furthermore, like the rest of your mates, you get touchy at the slightest thing yet, you feel that you're the only one entitled to dole out insults...while accusing others of being "nasty".
> 
> You understand what a "hypocrite is, don't you?
> 
> Maybe I should have used a  but, no matter. I actually enjoy watching you thrash about like a madman.



So you accuse people of racism and then enjoy it when they get angry? You should find a better hobby. Stamp collecting maybe?


----------



## nino_savatte (Jun 2, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> Ha, Ha. How droll.
> 
> nino_savette will answer your point about the alleged 'racist taunt' I'm sure. Unless you have him on ignore of course?



Of course it wasn't a "racist taunt". Durutti gets touchy over the slightest remark...why? Because he has nothing concrete to support his theses, this way he can try and claim the moral high ground. Have you noticed the way that he constantly calls anyone who doesn't accept his line of argument "ignorant" or "thick"? It's an auld deflective tactic.

What these pillocks want is for me to be banned. That way, they can be free to infest this forum with their wild ideas about "tackling" immigration.

Have you noticed how none of them has produced a single shred of evidence that proves, categorically, that 'immigrants' are being housed ahead of everyone else?  I don't expect them too but as someone who has worked in social housing, I know for a fact that immigrants aren't given priority and it's a myth and if any of these people actually worked in housing, they would see the same thing. I wonder if any of them are familiar with The Royal Overseas Club in Newington Green or The Parkside Hotel on Clapham Common? Just two examples of where people are being housed while they wait on the housing list....neither place could be described as salubrious either.


----------



## nino_savatte (Jun 2, 2007)

Knotted said:
			
		

> So you accuse people of racism and then enjoy it when they get angry? You should find a better hobby. Stamp collecting maybe?



You're a joker, Knotted. I haven't accused anyone of racism. But I am going to accuse you of something: you think that you have the skills of a master debater but you're nothing but cheap shot artist.

Face it, you don;t have a fucking clue what you're talking about.

Oh and your attempts at humour: don't leave your day job...which is what? Bog cleaner?


----------



## Knotted (Jun 2, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> Of course it wasn't a "racist taunt". Durutti gets touchy over the slightest remark...why? Because he has nothing concrete to support his theses, this way he can try and claim the moral high ground. Have you noticed the way that he constantly calls anyone who doesn't accept his line of argument "ignorant" or "thick"? It's an auld deflective tactic.



Your projections are beyond a joke. Do understand what a projection is? I tend to regard as something close to self-harm.




			
				nino_savatte said:
			
		

> What these pillocks want is for me to be banned. That way, they can be free to infest this forum with their wild ideas about "tackling" immigration.



I don't want you banned. I want you to post on topics you either have some konwledge of or at the very least interest you in some way.

If you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen. But don't start wailing when you get burnt.


----------



## Knotted (Jun 2, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> You're a joker, Knotted. I haven't accused anyone of racism. But I am going to accuse you of something: you think that you have the skills of a master debater but you're nothing but cheap shot artist.



I have made no claims about my debating skills. I have made claims about your debating skills. You need to understand that I am not you. We are different people. I don't have your character flaws. I have my own character flaws thank you very much.




			
				nino_savatte said:
			
		

> Face it, you don;t have a fucking clue what you're talking about.



At the minute I'm not talking about anything. I'm dealing with the nino problem.




			
				nino_savatte said:
			
		

> Oh and your attempts at humour: don't leave your day job...which is what? Bog cleaner?



I've never made any attempts at humour with you.

Anyway last word time:


----------



## nino_savatte (Jun 2, 2007)

Knotted said:
			
		

> Your projections are beyond a joke. Do understand what a projection is? I tend to regard as something close to self-harm.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I know perfectly well what "projection" is because you and your pals do it all the time.

Do us all a favour, shit-for-brains, keep your silly wee comments and your demands that I leave this thread to yourself. You're no skilled debater and you have shown yourself to be fundamentally dishonest...I guess it goes with the territory - eh?


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 2, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> Oh and your attempts at humour: don't leave your day job...which is what? Bog cleaner?



Now he's reaching for the classism...what a star!


----------



## nino_savatte (Jun 2, 2007)

Knotted said:
			
		

> I have made no claims about my debating skills. I have made claims about your debating skills. You need to understand that I am not you. We are different people. I don't have your character flaws. I have my own character flaws thank you very much.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You're so full of shite that you'd make a manure merchant blush with embarrassment.  

Catch yourself on, this is another one of your silly, mindless screeds.

Grow up, son.


----------



## nino_savatte (Jun 2, 2007)

torres said:
			
		

> Now he's reaching for the classism...what a star!



What do you do? Sit around and wait for me to post?

You're another shithead who thinks he's a skilled debater but you're just a cheap shot artist with an overinflated ego.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 2, 2007)

What have you got against cleaners nino? Are they beneath you? Beneath your towering intellect? Do you think you'd get far trying to organise migrant workers many of whom are 'bog cleaners' with that approach?


----------



## nino_savatte (Jun 2, 2007)

torres said:
			
		

> What have you got against cleaners nino? Are they beneath you? Beneath your towering intellect? Do you think you'd get far trying to organise migrant workers many of whom are 'bog cleaners' with that approach?



You must lead a really interesting life , torres, you sit around waiting for me to pop up and post. You're a proper tool.

How's the view under the bridge today?


----------



## Knotted (Jun 2, 2007)

torres said:
			
		

> Now he's reaching for the classism...what a star!



Ironically enough, I have cleaned bogs for a living in the past, albeit only for a short while.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 2, 2007)

Ah, right we're back to me being a troll (it was trot the other day, then a troll again, then RA and so on) - and this from someone who has calculatedly set out to destroy thread after thread and any hope of serious adult debate on an issue they personally don't feel comfortable with and who has smeared poster after poster as racist (including a mod!) along the way - classic troll behaviour.


----------



## nino_savatte (Jun 2, 2007)

Knotted said:
			
		

> Ironically enough, I have cleaned bogs for a living in the past, albeit only for a short while.



So have I...but that proves nothing.


----------



## nino_savatte (Jun 2, 2007)

torres said:
			
		

> Ah, right we're back to me being a troll (it was trot the other day, then a troll again, then RA and so on) - and this from someone who has calculatedly set out to destroy thread after thread and any hope of serious adult debate on an issue they personally don't feel comfortable with and who has smeared poster after poster as racist (including a mod!) along the way - classic troll behaviour.



You're still pursuing this? Weak, very weak.


----------



## Knotted (Jun 2, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> So have I...but that proves nothing.



Agreed.


----------



## nino_savatte (Jun 2, 2007)

Knotted said:
			
		

> Agreed.



I've also done a lot of other shitty jobs...so what? Would you do those jobs again? I doubt it. Shitty jobs that no Brit will touch are performed by immigrants and migrant workers. Who else is going to do this work? Unless you've created an army of robots to do those jobs, that is...


----------



## Knotted (Jun 2, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> I've also done a lot of other shitty jobs...so what? Would you do those jobs again? I doubt it. Shitty jobs that no Brit will touch are performed by immigrants and migrant workers. Who else is going to do this work? Unless you've created an army of robots to do those jobs, that is...



Hitler had similar ideas with his concentration camps. Get the unter-mensch to do the dirty work. I'm always appalled when I here this argument repeated.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 2, 2007)

So why did you have a go at them and suggest that they're somehow beneath you now? Whence comes this social chauvanism nino?


----------



## nino_savatte (Jun 2, 2007)

Knotted said:
			
		

> Hitler had similar ideas with his concentration camps. Get the unter-mensch to do the dirty work. I'm always appalled when I here this argument repeated.



Quoi?  Are you feeling well?


----------



## nino_savatte (Jun 2, 2007)

> torres
> This message is hidden because torres is on your ignore list.



Lusty's calling you, you'd better toddle off back to him and give him a nice back rub.  

I know what I'd like to give him and it isn't a back rub, I can tell you!


----------



## audiotech (Jun 2, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> MC sorry but are you dim or mischevious?
> 
> i have not anywhere at anytime argued for STATE immigration controls .. i have sought to get debate on how immigration CURRENTLY fits into neoliberalism and have alleged that it has been used to undermine wages and workers organisation.
> 
> ...



I told 'em Oldham.  

Let's look at the meat of your argument. 

*the right of communities to decide who and how people shoud live in those communities*

Sounds fine, but one major problem here is that it ain't gonna happen under the present system. For the community to decide on these matters the first thing that they need to do is take power. Now, you are not calling for that are you? So, all I see you doing is coming out with an empty slogan, which fails far short of the possibility's you promise.

You then follow one empty slogan with another:



> i HAVE argued that workers should not allow bosses to cut wages and jobs using any labour and that includes migrant labour .. and i have argued that workers should put pressure on bosses to employ locally



'Workers should not *allow* bosses to cut wages and jobs'? If only they had the luxury of that choice ffs. The reality is that bosses do this and it is only by organising with other workers against these attacks on conditions and pay that there is likely to be a reversal of the employers dictats. Arguing that 'workers should put pressure on bosses to employ locally' is both divisive and pits worker against worker.

Finally, of course it is racist to use the terms: "get the blacks and slavs in to do our dirty work", but no one has said that have they? It is also racist to believe that "the blacks and slavs" are only capable of doing that type of work. Which is clearly not the case.


----------



## liberty123 (Jun 3, 2007)

Advocates of migration always stress that east Europeans are coming to do the jobs we don't want to do and for low wages. It's the old argument for immigration, based on Guradian readers wanting cheap plumbers (the rest of us live in council/association houses, so don't pay for plumbers) and cheap au pairs etc while they're at the Opera.Well they may be happy to start off doing the crappy jobs or work for less than brits, but as Britain's experience of immigrants shows once they're given permanent citizenship they won't be happy to do crappy jobs or lower paid jobs anymore and they will soon have their own lobby groups campaigning for access to housing etc in competition with native Brits on this ridiculously over crowded little island.


----------



## durruti02 (Jun 3, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> I told 'em Oldham.
> 
> Let's look at the meat of your argument.
> 
> ...



whoay!! hang on here .. wer eyou not a just saying my arguments were like those of the far right????? 

and i replyed??? .. so don't go onto something else .. i have shown my arguments are NOT anywhere like those of the far right .. please acknowledge this and we can debate further what you posted here


----------



## audiotech (Jun 3, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> whoay!! hang on here .. wer eyou not a just saying my arguments were like those of the far right?????
> 
> and i replyed??? .. so don't go onto something else .. i have shown my arguments are NOT anywhere like those of the far right .. please acknowledge this and we can debate further what you posted here




Well let's have a look at a couple of your statements shall we:




			
				durruti02 said:
			
		

> ...an immigrant family with a number of kids will get housed before a young local couple ..



Straight out of the BNP/Hodge school of thought.




			
				durruti02 said:
			
		

> ...the reason for economic migration in the first place in a country with millions unemployed



Reminds me of the National Front when they argued: "3 million unemployed, 3 million blacks".


----------



## becky p (Jun 3, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> Have you noticed the way that he constantly calls anyone who doesn't accept his line of argument "ignorant" or "thick"? It's an auld deflective tactic.



Of course you are never guilty of that nino. You are well known for your ability to debate any issue in your very friendly style.


----------



## becky p (Jun 3, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> Straight out of the BNP/Hodge school of thought.



Do you think that some people will view your attempts to lump durruti02,the BNP and Margaret Hodge together as rather desperate?


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jun 3, 2007)

becky p said:
			
		

> Do you think that some people will view your attempts to lump durruti02,the BNP and Margaret Hodge together as rather desperate?


only is desperate as those who seek to lump SW with the BNP nationalists and liberals?


----------



## durruti02 (Jun 3, 2007)

ResistanceMP3 said:
			
		

> only is desperate as those who seek to lump SW with the BNP nationalists and liberals?




sorry but who has done that?  with liberalism yes ( freedom of movement IS classic liberalism) but lump in SW and BNP?? how and when?? anway good to see you back .. i liked what you said on tiscali!


----------



## mk12 (Jun 3, 2007)

> ...an immigrant family with a number of kids will get housed before a young local couple ..



Is this true? Is there any evidence for this?


----------



## audiotech (Jun 3, 2007)

becky p said:
			
		

> Do you think that some people will view your attempts to lump durruti02,the BNP and Margaret Hodge together as rather desperate?



No, it's to encourage debate.


----------



## lights.out.london (Jun 3, 2007)

Knotted said:
			
		

> Hitler had similar ideas with his concentration camps. Get the unter-mensch to do the dirty work. I'm always appalled when I here this argument repeated.



Sadly, for the "subhumans" (Untermensch) there was no welfare state, no minimum wage, no free education or health care and little or no choice as to which 'camp' they were 'employed' at. Only the Hiwis had any choice (at all) in their duties - even then, it was work or die for the vast majority of them, particularly if they were posted to a Pioneer or SS battalion.

SMERSH and the NKVD took care of them [the 'Untermensch' who 'co-operated' with the Germans) as the People's Army rolled west.


----------



## becky p (Jun 3, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> No, it's to encourage debate.



You and nino seem desperate to avoid any kind of open debate. 
One of the most annoying things is when people throw out frankly pathetic accusations of racism. 
Is there really any point to an anti BNP campaign that insists anybody who has concerns about present day immigration policies, is as bad as the BNP?


----------



## durruti02 (Jun 3, 2007)

This is a thread about griffin and the direction he is taking the BNP .. when i started it i thought it wouldbe more general .. but it seems to be concentrating on housing .. so lets get what is right and wrong .. i am NOT a housing expert .. so nino ( who says he has worked in housing ) and others tell us .. what are the entitlement facts?? .. i have done some links below .. two from housing lawyers ... and some others more generally 

and as far as i can see,  immigrants can , while not immediately, claim housing entitlements.  see also how many immigrants get leave to stay every year ( about 100k) .. and also how few A8 have claimed or been given social housing so far c20 a month .. 

the question i ask MC and nino is .. are you saying immigrants ( not new ones but all .. including after 5 years) do NOT ever get housing??

as i have said countering the BNP with inaccurate figures will back fire ... saying immigrants do NOT get social housing is simply untrue 


http://nearlylegal.co.uk/blog/archives/231

http://headoflegal.blogspot.com/2007/05/eu-citizens-social-housing-and-margaert.html

see table 626 particularly

http://england.shelter.org.uk/advice/advice-3172.cfm

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs04/hosb1204.pdf


edited to delete a table that i thought referred to area of origin but just referred to ethnicity ... which of course does not indicate whether recent migrant or not


----------



## durruti02 (Jun 3, 2007)

mk12 said:
			
		

> Is this true? Is there any evidence for this?



depends !! have they got leave to stay/settled status of which 100k a year get ? in which case yes .. if they are refugees .. yes .. if they are EU .. and working .. yes ( but not sure whether that includes e.g. french west africans or  brazialian/portugese ) 

i am still unclear on whether if they haven't, but are homeless, they would do ..


----------



## durruti02 (Jun 3, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> No, it's to encourage debate.



 but it doesn't does it? posting facts and stats etc moves debate on .. not nonsense like that


----------



## dash_two (Jun 4, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> Shitty jobs that no Brit will touch are performed by immigrants and migrant workers. Who else is going to do this work? Unless you've created an army of robots to do those jobs, that is...



Such was the situation faced by Japan in the 1950s and 1960s when there was a shortage of labour affecting industrial output. They could have gone down the import-cheap-labour route, but instead chose the automation route. This seems to have served Japan pretty well.

Another example: the Earl of Shaftesbury eventually succeeded in pushing through a bill in 1864 putting an end to children working as chimney sweeps. Did the chimneys of London then become permanently clogged because there were no more tiny children to squeeze into them? No, the master chimney sweeps just invented longer brushes and brooms so a full-size man could do the job. 

In general, cheap labour is highly replaceable by better technology and organisation.


----------



## audiotech (Jun 4, 2007)

becky p said:
			
		

> You and nino seem desperate to avoid any kind of open debate.
> One of the most annoying things is when people throw out frankly pathetic accusations of racism.
> Is there really any point to an anti BNP campaign that insists anybody who has concerns about present day immigration policies, is as bad as the BNP?



Hang on, I have not thrown out, pathetic, or otherwise, accusations of 'racism' and I have not insisted that anyone who has 'concerns' about present day immigration policies is as bad as the BNP.

I keep asking what the 'concerns' are over immigration, but get no adequate answer to that simple question.

What are your 'concerns' becky about immigration?


----------



## audiotech (Jun 4, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> the question i ask MC and nino is .. are you saying immigrants ( not new ones but all .. including after 5 years) do NOT ever get housing??



Most people from abroad (including virtually all asylum seekers) do not qualify for council housing. Although, as is clear "...certain people from abroad are eligible for council housing" - usually those that have been granted refugee status, or who have been given exceptional leave to remain.

Doesn't mean they get a council house of course and those that are on offer are usually where no one else wants to live.

Current restrictions on EU citizens suggests that:

There is no housing eligibility for anyone whose only right of residence is via Art 6 (right of residence for initial 3 months) and the qualification on illness or accident in Art 7(a) does mean that an EU citizen receiving Income Support may be entitled to housing assistance, which was pretty much not the case, but only if this is demonstrably a temporary period due to illness or accident, so it is also likely that an intention to return to work or workseeking will need to be shown.

Right to assistance does not mean they get allocated a house either. It means they are given advice from an Housing Advice Centre. Which could be a list of Housing Associations for example, or private landlords where they can apply.

Very few immigrants are eligible for housing assistance. Even those that do receive some help and are allocated housing, are usually those granted refugee status.

EU citizens (migrants) are not eligible for any assistance it seems. Although there is an article which talks about eligibility, initially for three months, but this involves very strict criteria and importantly, Art 24(2) allows a derogation from the general rule such that there is no social assistance for this 3 month period. So, it seems EU migrants have no rights at all to social housing.


----------



## audiotech (Jun 4, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> but it doesn't does it? posting facts and stats etc moves debate on .. not nonsense like that



Posting facts and stats is a new venture for you though ain't it.


----------



## nino_savatte (Jun 4, 2007)

> the question i ask MC and nino is .. are you saying immigrants ( not new ones but all .. including after 5 years) do NOT ever get housing??



They take their place on the housing list like everyone else. Are you familiar with the former Royal Overseas Club on Newington Green or the Parkside Hotel (now being refurbished) on Clapham Common? Both places house large numbers of refugees and immigrants, who are all waiting to be housed. I know, I used to work for both Lambeth and Islington Councils. Need to know more?


----------



## durruti02 (Jun 4, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> They take their place on the housing list like everyone else. Are you familiar with the former Royal Overseas Club on Newington Green or the Parkside Hotel (now being refurbished) on Clapham Common? Both places house large numbers of refugees and immigrants, who are all waiting to be housed. I know, I used to work for both Lambeth and Islington Councils. Need to know more?



of course i am aware of the digusting conditions many migrants and refugees have to suffer ..  

but i have asked you this before .. as an ex housing officer *please tell us *.. how do migrants then get housed or are you saying NO migrants ever get housed .. which sesm to be not the case ... this is very important in any argument against the BNP that we are clear about this .. 

my understanding .. and it is ONLY that ..  (i can NOT back it up with facts) .. is that every year tens of thousends of migrants who have been e.g. given secure status for whatever reason, will get LA housing under priority rules .. another issue that particularly confuses me is entitlement to homeless families without secure status .. is there any?

you say " They take their place on the housing list like everyone else" .. but that i sthen surely the point .. that if they have families and are in shit accomodation they will then be ahead in the queue of a young couple living at each others parents? No?


----------



## durruti02 (Jun 4, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> Most people from abroad (including virtually all asylum seekers) do not qualify for council housing. Although, as is clear "...certain people from abroad are eligible for council housing" - usually those that have been granted refugee status, or who have been given exceptional leave to remain.
> 
> Doesn't mean they get a council house of course and those that are on offer are usually where no one else wants to live.
> 
> ...



so what figures are there on this???  .. is it possible to know how many 'exceptional leave' do get RSL housing??  or how many refugees? 

p.s. on EU i think you are wrong ..  Shelter seem to suggest if you are working you are eligible. it is the A8 and A2 countries there seems to be a dispute about .. i think 


p.s. in the south mate there is NOWHERE that no one wants to live .. hard to let finished in the 1980's


----------



## durruti02 (Jun 4, 2007)

dash_two said:
			
		

> The US government does not appear to be particularly serious about stopping Mexican immigration. The fences and patrols are probably just a cosmetic sop to redneck opinion. (I think the distinction between 'legal' and 'illegal' immigration is a bogus one btw.) Certainly most Americans don't think that the current immigration bill being debated in the Senate will have any real effect on the situation:
> 
> http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/just_16_believe_senate_bill_will_reduce_illegal_immigration
> 
> ...



interesting post .. but no replies!


----------



## durruti02 (Jun 4, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> Let's look at the meat of your argument.
> 
> *the right of communities to decide who and how people shoud live in those communities*
> 
> ...



 to say it aint gonna happen is strange  .. i thought you were a socialist? aand indeed the rest fo the paragraph shows who , to me , you do not undertsand how to get from A to B politically. How does a community take power? to me i can not see anay other route than by one step at a time ..  by demanding what they need as a community .. 


and OF COURSE the same goes for the workplace .. you think i do not know this??? ive been a shoppy on the  council for nigh on 20 years!!   fuck me the problems are impressed on my head in very large letters!! 

no one and especially myself has EVER argued for division amongst workers in this country?? where do you get that from???  .. and sorry but you are teaching me to suck eggs mate .. what you propose is exactly what i have been arguing for years on urban!! 

you seem to suggest though that while obviously we should make international links as trade unions, that IF our bosses were dismissing us and bringing in cheap labour, that somehow we should not oppose this as it would create 'division' . please correct me if i have got you wrong here. And exactly  who is it being divisive with, by arguing that local kids should get jobs?? Your logic to me leads to saying it would be divisive to argue against moving work overseas


i am obviously being polemic as regards 'black and slavs' .. but do you not think it is of interest or in any way problematic that the left argue that it is ok to have 'black and slavs' doing shitty work as the chavs won't do it??


----------



## Columbine (Jun 5, 2007)

It is quite clear that Griffin has correctly analysed the weakness of the left on immigration, and pushed a great deal on this issue without being overtly racist.

It is down to the left to combat this , or risk sinking into the middle class freak show of the SWP and Respect.


----------



## tbaldwin (Jun 5, 2007)

Columbine said:
			
		

> It is quite clear that Griffin has correctly analysed the weakness of the left on immigration, and pushed a great deal on this issue without being overtly racist.
> 
> It is down to the left to combat this , or risk sinking into the middle class freak show of the SWP and Respect.



He may have done. But lets not forget Griffin is someone who has been in far right groups for over 20 years. Overt racists who have always tried to use Immigration.
But most of the concern over mass immigration in the UK presently concerns white immigration from new eu states and Australia and South Africa.
This gives them a few problems as well.


----------



## nino_savatte (Jun 5, 2007)

> my understanding .. and it is ONLY that .. (i can NOT back it up with facts) .. is that every year tens of thousends of migrants who have been e.g. given secure status for whatever reason, will get LA housing under priority rules .. another issue that particularly confuses me is entitlement to homeless families without secure status .. is there any?
> 
> you say " They take their place on the housing list like everyone else" .. but that i sthen surely the point .. that if they have families and are in shit accomodation they will then be ahead in the queue of a young couple living at each others parents? No?



I've worked in housing for 3 local authorities and in each of those authorities I have not witnessed queue-jumping. All applicants are treated exactly the same.

Do you understand how the housing allocation system works? Those with the greatest need get the highest priority. By "greatest need", I mean those people with serious health conditions or who are living in seriously overcrowded conditions.

I gave some examples of LA temporary accommodation (B&Bs, former hotels etc) on either this thread or another.

To claim that "immigrants are taking housing from 'natives'" is to accept myth over facts. This is one of auldest lies put about by the far right.


----------



## audiotech (Jun 5, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> so what figures are there on this???  .. is it possible to know how many 'exceptional leave' do get RSL housing??  or how many refugees?
> 
> p.s. on EU i think you are wrong ..  Shelter seem to suggest if you are working you are eligible. it is the A8 and A2 countries there seems to be a dispute about .. i think
> 
> ...



Well there's a few estates where I am where no one wants to live and plenty of tower blocks too. There's even some demolition going on in some of the larger estates.

On the EU? Think what you like, but the legalese you posted suggests otherwise. The present political climate only will only make it clearer on the issue of social housing for migrants - not eligible.

I don't have any figures for refugees, or those with exceptional leave to remain being allocated social housing. A tiny percentage of the total housing stock I would think.


----------



## audiotech (Jun 5, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> to say it aint gonna happen is strange  .. i thought you were a socialist? aand indeed the rest fo the paragraph shows who , to me , you do not undertsand how to get from A to B politically. How does a community take power? to me i can not see anay other route than by one step at a time ..  by demanding what they need as a community ..
> 
> 
> and OF COURSE the same goes for the workplace .. you think i do not know this??? ive been a shoppy on the  council for nigh on 20 years!!   fuck me the problems are impressed on my head in very large letters!!
> ...



In response to your "the right of communities to decide who and how people should live in those communities" I said: *that ain't gonna happen under the present system*.

You might think it's gonna happen with your "one step at a time" reformist approach, but for people to be able to make a decision like that, first there will first have to be a seismic shift in power away from the present set-up.

As I said, workers putting pressure on bosses to employ locally is divisive and will pit worker against worker.

As for your:




			
				durruti02 said:
			
		

> ...IF our bosses were dismissing us and bringing in cheap labour, that somehow we should not oppose this as it would create 'division' . please correct me if i have got you wrong here.



Yes you are wrong. I was active around the Grunwicks dispute (and others)and had no problem opposing the bosses there bringing in cheap, scab labour. That dispute created unity, particularly from miners and postal workers, which was then sabotaged by the then leaders of the TUC and some in the Labour party.

No one here is arguing that local kids should not get jobs, but there is a difficulty here with your proposals. What about kids who are not local to where these jobs are? Who in the 'community' will be making these decisions? What criteria is to be used to say yes to some and no to others?

It would be problematic if:



> the left argue that it is ok to have 'black and slavs' doing shitty work as the chavs won't do it



It all depends who you mean when you say "the left"? Some on the left oppose further immigration controls. Others say let local kids do these jobs.


----------



## durruti02 (Jun 5, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> I've worked in housing for 3 local authorities and in each of those authorities I have not witnessed queue-jumping. All applicants are treated exactly the same.
> 
> Do you understand how the housing allocation system works? Those with the greatest need get the highest priority. By "greatest need", I mean those people with serious health conditions or who are living in seriously overcrowded conditions.
> 
> ...




 Thank you for starting to explain how it works. I am still confused though. 

You say all applicants are 'treated exactly the same' .. but then say its about greatest need .. so they are not treated teh same are they?? 

 From what you have said though i see nothing that contradicts the assertion that a young local couple with secure (if cramped) accomodation at their mums and dads will NOT get housed and will see immigrants ( from wherever) get housed IF they are in 'greater need' e.g. childen .. in fact you actually back up this assertion in your second paragraph .. 

it is clearly a lie to say 'immigrants are taking houses from natives' .. but it seems that immigrants with residency WILL get housed before locals who are not in greater need .. please confirm or deny this for us


----------



## durruti02 (Jun 6, 2007)

triple post!


----------



## durruti02 (Jun 6, 2007)

double post


----------



## durruti02 (Jun 6, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> Well there's a few estates where I am where no one wants to live and plenty of tower blocks too. There's even some demolition going on in some of the larger estates.
> 
> On the EU? Think what you like, but the legalese you posted suggests otherwise. The present political climate only will only make it clearer on the issue of social housing for migrants - not eligible.
> 
> I don't have any figures for refugees, or those with exceptional leave to remain being allocated social housing. A tiny percentage of the total housing stock I would think.



firstly i think this post shows how different things are where you live than in the south east .. you have neither the absolute shortage of hosuing nor the large scale immigration that we do in london and the south east . i think you often  do not take this into account .. i suspect i seem to generlaise to the whole country .. if i do i am wrong to do so but i know that

second i was not "think[ing] what you like " .. i was qouting Shelter  .. though from what i have read i do think you are wrong .. try this link

https://www.advicenow.org.uk/fileLibrary/pdf/EEA_110806_Final.pdf 
or http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/actionnetwork/A2202373
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/actionnetwork/A2202373

i think you are really not seeing how this is working in the south east ... to say the affect is tiny is simply wrong


----------



## nino_savatte (Jun 6, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> Thank you for starting to explain how it works. I am still confused though.
> 
> You say all applicants are 'treated exactly the same' .. but then say its about greatest need .. so they are not treated teh same are they??
> 
> ...



Durutti, stop playing games. Have you ever worked for a local authority or are you still swallowing the bigoted myths put about by _soi-disant_ 'experts'?

You refuse to acknowledge the lies and the myths put about regarding social housing provision. Read this carefully: THERE IS NO QUEUE JUMPING. IMMIGRANTS ARE NOT GIVEN PRIORITY TREATMENT.

There is no confusion, other than the one that you have deliberately constructed for yourself.


----------



## dash_two (Jun 6, 2007)

Interesting article about precisely this subject by Geoff Dench and Kate Gavron in the Guardian:



> There was hostility [on the part of 'white' East Londoners] to real and imagined Bangladeshi customs and personal habits, alleged insularity or un-neighbourly behaviour. But by far the largest number of complaints arose in relation to Bangladeshi claims on the welfare state, their rights and entitlements. Many of these complaints were implausible or involved serious ignorance of how welfare procedures operated; but others were based on a real sense of injustice over the way the allocation of social housing appeared to be slanted preferentially to Bangladeshi needs.



http://society.guardian.co.uk/socialexclusion/story/0,,1704158,00.html


----------



## JimPage (Jun 6, 2007)

and to add to this, Gordon Brown has issued, at the GMB conference, an  openly racist "British Jobs for British Workers" plea

Any ideas which Nazi group, until recontly, wa using this as a slogan.....

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/n...objectid=19251506&siteid=66633-name_page.html


----------



## JimPage (Jun 6, 2007)

http://bnp-leadership-challenge.blogspot.com/

hmmmm....


----------



## tbaldwin (Jun 6, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> and to add to this, Gordon Brown has issued, at the GMB conference, an  openly racist "British Jobs for British Workers" plea
> 
> Any ideas which Nazi group, until recontly, wa using this as a slogan.....
> 
> http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/n...objectid=19251506&siteid=66633-name_page.html



"British jobs for British workers" may have been used by racists but it is not racist. 
It is something that most British workers Black or white agree with...You seem like another old left dinosaur lost in the past.......


----------



## tbaldwin (Jun 6, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> Durutti, stop playing games. Have you ever worked for a local authority or are you still swallowing the bigoted myths put about by _soi-disant_ 'experts'?
> 
> You refuse to acknowledge the lies and the myths put about regarding social housing provision. Read this carefully: THERE IS NO QUEUE JUMPING. IMMIGRANTS ARE NOT GIVEN PRIORITY TREATMENT.
> 
> There is no confusion, other than the one that you have deliberately constructed for yourself.



The Homeless persons act means it is often easier for people freshly arrived from Turkey to get housing than it is for people who have lived here all their lives who may have Turkish parents..

Explain to people if you will how so many council estates in London have so many recent immigrants in the flats.


----------



## tbaldwin (Jun 6, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> Well there's a few estates where I am where no one wants to live and plenty of tower blocks too. There's even some demolition going on in some of the larger estates.
> 
> .



Interesting point while the madness of the free market reigns...You have an overcrowded south east,getting more and more built up....And they are knocking houses down up norf....
Thats what happens when you leave things to the free market MC5.......
But you should realise that as you CLAIM to be a Socialist...........


----------



## nino_savatte (Jun 6, 2007)

tbaldwin said:
			
		

> The Homeless persons act means it is often easier for people freshly arrived from Turkey to get housing than it is for people who have lived here all their lives who may have Turkish parents..
> 
> Explain to people if you will how so many council estates in London have so many recent immigrants in the flats.



You're talking out of your bigoted arse again, fuckwit. Have you worked in housing for local authorities? No. So shut the fuck up.

Oh and your use of the Homeless Persons Act is a strawman. Back of the class.


----------



## nino_savatte (Jun 6, 2007)

tbaldwin said:
			
		

> "British jobs for British workers" may have been used by racists but it is not racist.
> It is something that most British workers Black or white agree with...You seem like another old left dinosaur lost in the past.......



It is used by racists and it is still used by racists. But then you would deny that there is an underlying current of xenophobia and racism to the anti-immigration argument.

And you have the fucking cheek to get offended whenever anyone suggests that your posts contain racist undertones. You do it to yourself.


----------



## tbaldwin (Jun 6, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> You're talking out of your bigoted arse again, fuckwit. Have you worked in housing for local authorities? No. So shut the fuck up.



erm What a fantastic arguement...."Have you worked in housing for local authorities?"

Good stuff. So if i havent i should shut the fuck up eh....Perhaps if you have never been an MP you should not be allowed to speak about politics?

Great Libertarian you turned out to be....


----------



## tbaldwin (Jun 6, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> It is used by racists and it is still used by racists. But then you would deny that there is an underlying current of xenophobia and racism to the anti-immigration argument.
> 
> And you have the fucking cheek to get offended whenever anyone suggests that your posts contain racist undertones. You do it to yourself.



1 Do you really after all this time think there is an anti immigration arguement or different arguements....Some are Racist yes Nino and some are totally opposed to Racism and view the way that Rich countries poach skilled workers from poorer countries as indefensible...
You do realise there is a difference between those arguements dont you?


----------



## audiotech (Jun 6, 2007)

tbaldwin said:
			
		

> Interesting point while the madness of the free market reigns...You have an overcrowded south east,getting more and more built up....And they are knocking houses down up norf....
> Thats what happens when you leave things to the free market MC5.......
> But you should realise that as you CLAIM to be a Socialist...........



The decisions here 'up norf' were made by the local authority and elected officials.

There is no such thing as a "free market". If you have ever studied economics you will realise that it's an abstract, theoretical model.


----------



## tbaldwin (Jun 6, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> The decisions here 'up norf' were made by the local authority and elected officials.
> 
> There is no such thing as a "free market". If you have ever studied economics you will realise that it's an abstract, theoretical model.



Knocking down housing up North whilst building on more and more land in the overcrowded south east,shows up the stupidity of the free market.

Supporting the so called FREE!!! movement of people just plays into the hands of people who want to see a more divided country and world....


----------



## audiotech (Jun 6, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> firstly i think this post shows how different things are where you live than in the south east .. you have neither the absolute shortage of hosuing nor the large scale immigration that we do in london and the south east . i think you often  do not take this into account .. i suspect i seem to generlaise to the whole country .. if i do i am wrong to do so but i know that
> 
> second i was not "think[ing] what you like " .. i was qouting Shelter  .. though from what i have read i do think you are wrong .. try this link
> 
> ...



I didn't say the 'affect is tiny' I said: "I don't have any figures for refugees, or those with exceptional leave to remain being allocated social housing. A tiny percentage of the total housing stock I would think." Prove me wrong with some statistics?

That first link (I see with cartoons by former Socialist Worker cartoonist Evans) has this to say on a national of a European Economic Area (EEA) country.



> EEA nationals have the same rights to rent and buy property as British nationals. If you are having problems finding accommodation get help from one of the organisations on page 7 or contact your local authority housing department. You can apply to go on the housing register and you will be assessed in the same way as all other applicants.



However, as I noted in another post on this thread:




			
				MC5 said:
			
		

> EU citizens (migrants) are not eligible for any assistance it seems. Although there is an article which talks about eligibility, initially for three months, but this involves very strict criteria and importantly, Art 24(2) allows a derogation from the general rule such that there is no social assistance for this 3 month period. So, it seems EU migrants have no rights at all to social housing.



Some contradictory info out there it appears.

Further contradictions on the second link as some of the information povided is out of date. Some of the comments below it make this clear, as immigration rules have become more restrictive.

The third link is a duplication of the second one.


----------



## audiotech (Jun 6, 2007)

tbaldwin said:
			
		

> Knocking down housing up North whilst building on more and more land in the overcrowded south east,shows up the stupidity of the free market.
> 
> Supporting the so called FREE!!! movement of people just plays into the hands of people who want to see a more divided country and world....



It shows up the stupidity of those granting planning applications surely?

I support the free movement of workers, both coming to and leaving these shores.

If I wanted to leave this country (more to the point, if I could afford to), I would give short shrift to any tin-pot, authoritarian, bureaucrat who wanted to stop me.


----------



## tbaldwin (Jun 6, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> It shows up the stupidity of those granting planning applications surely?
> 
> I support the free movement of workers, both coming to and leaving these shores.
> 
> If I wanted to leave this country (more to the point, if I could afford to), I would give short shrift to any tin-pot, authoritarian, bureaucrat who wanted to stop me.




So you think people should be stopped from building properties but free to live whereever they like.....Yes i think i understand that.......


----------



## audiotech (Jun 6, 2007)

tbaldwin said:
			
		

> So you think people should be stopped from building properties but free to live whereever they like....



Where have I said that people should be stopped from building properties?

Most people would choose to live where they are now with family, friends etc, etc.

However, some wish to travel freely, for work, leisure - to explore different horizons and not have some authoritarian twat telling them they can't.


----------



## tbaldwin (Jun 6, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> However, some wish to travel freely, for work, leisure - to explore different horizons and not have some authoritarian twat telling them they can't.



Yes i understand your free market socialism MC5....Anybody who has the money should be free to live whereever they like....


----------



## brasicritique (Jun 6, 2007)

The only way to separate myth from fact would be to use the freedom of information act to see who had been given access to council/affordable social housing what there status had been in terms of initial citizenship were they i.e. British citizen , EU ( migrant ) citizen or non eu migrants /asylum seekers citizens. Then break this information down in terms of age gender family size etc.Then do the math.

Maybe someone has already done this on another post or left wing website .Or maybe not maybe the bnp will do it before them and mix it in with there propaganda. Either way the issue needs to be resolved the left wing Ninny dimbos of the world need to start being pretty objective pretty bloody soon. 

From where I am sitting the left have a massive problem of credibility within ALL impoverished communities period. For example if you look at the black community they are turning to the church for support and mutual aid with respect to the problems within there community such as gun crime for example ( not that I am suggesting this is a problem exclusive to their community).Young Muslims are turning to radical Islam . etc

No one except there own inborn zealots believe a word of what the left says anymore still that’s what they get for adopting an intellectual white working class bashing attitude in the 70's and 80's an attitude that is also reflected within the mainstream Leftwing parties and urban media elite.  

In fact no matter what left wing group you examine they all seem to want to drive people to the far right or conservative institutions as they appear to be operating in a moral and ethical bind of there own making. 

Is it really realistic to expect people not to have ANY sexist racist homophobic xenophobic etc views at all not even a small weenie trace. But this is the strict criteria that the left applies. 

If this ignorance is due to education or lack of it then surely the left are to partly blame themselves when one considers that education is dominated by the left in terms of intellectual ideas, and concepts right down to the leftwing teachers that deliver the education itself

( with the obvious exemptions of private education )   

You cannot expect so many alienated people who have to struggle for what little they have against other people from the same socio-economic background to be the living embodiment of virtue. But then that is what the problem is. People. There seems to be a lot of insecure reactionary left wing  middleclass / aspiring middleclass people on these boards who needing to feel better than others take great joy and indeed within wider main stream society from putting those who are already at the bottom of society down thus arguably demonstrating  there own psychologically flawed phobic attitudes that manifest themselves in anti-under/ working class rhetoric views as expressed so clearly by so many so called left wing anarcho environmentalist types on these boards. The danger which is starting to show itself on these boards is that people are now automatically being seen as a die hard Nazis if they happen to disagree with left wing radicals. 

Here’s an idea instead of arguing why don’t  nino and dureti collaborate research the demographics of bnp voters and correlate this information with local deprivation educational achievement etc. Hs anyone on the left done this? But then its a sad case that all these left wing factions demonstrate-to many egos to few members 

If you really want to change the world for the better then you have to start by changing your attitudes.

Some of those who vote for the far right might know no better but those who claim to be highly ethical political people with a deep insight into how to make  society into a progressive utopia should. 
Hearts and minds . 
In some communities the far right are slowly winning over peoples minds. 
But the left are not winning over either


----------



## audiotech (Jun 6, 2007)

tbaldwin said:
			
		

> Yes i understand your free market socialism MC5....Anybody who has the money should be free to live whereever they like....



Market socialism with money. A crap idea and not likely to be free.


----------



## mk12 (Jun 6, 2007)

brasicattack said:
			
		

> The only way to separate myth from fact would be to use the freedom of information act to see who had been given access to council/affordable social housing what there status had been in terms of initial citizenship were they i.e. British citizen , EU ( migrant ) citizen or non eu migrants /asylum seekers citizens. Then break this information down in terms of age gender family size etc.Then do the math.
> 
> Maybe someone has already done this on another post or left wing website .Or maybe not maybe the bnp will do it before them and mix it in with there propaganda. Either way the issue needs to be resolved the left wing Ninny dimbos of the world need to start being pretty objective pretty bloody soon.
> 
> ...



Good post.


----------



## audiotech (Jun 6, 2007)

Who votes BNP. Published in 2004.


----------



## mk12 (Jun 6, 2007)

That study only included 539 voters' views, out of 808,200 who voted BNP in 2004 Euro elections.


----------



## audiotech (Jun 6, 2007)

mk12 said:
			
		

> That study only included 539 voters' views, out of 808,200 who voted BNP in 2004 Euro elections.



I know and it's a bit dated. Extrapolate what you want from it, if anything.

This quote from Billy Bragg maybe not far from the truth?



> ...if you want to really annoy the local Labour council and get them to sort shit out then the nuclear button to press would be to vote in a BNP council.



There's another report too.

The BNP. The roots of its appeal.

..and this:

How the BNP entered the political mainstream.


----------



## mk12 (Jun 6, 2007)

> ...if you want to really annoy the local Labour council and get them to sort shit out then the nuclear button to press would be to vote in a BNP council.



Yeah, that's a good point.


----------



## nino_savatte (Jun 7, 2007)

mk12 said:
			
		

> Good post.



No it isn't. Brasicattack, like so many others, fails to acknowledge the xenophobia and racism that accompanies this argument. Furthermore, he seems unwilling the acknowledge the many myths that orbit the centre of the anti-immigration debate (which, on this forum, is often one-sided and dominated by those who are fervently against immigration).


----------



## nino_savatte (Jun 7, 2007)

> In fact no matter what left wing group you examine they all seem to want to drive people to the far right or conservative institutions as they appear to be operating in a moral and ethical bind of there own making.



This is what is commonly known as the "emotional blackmail" tactic. To say that those of us who oppose the anti-immigration argument "push people into the arms of the BNP" is ludicrous and smacks of the same sort of rhetoric favoured by nationalists and so-called American patriots.



> The only way to separate myth from fact would be to use the freedom of information act to see who had been given access to council/affordable social housing what there status had been in terms of initial citizenship were they i.e. British citizen , EU ( migrant ) citizen or non eu migrants /asylum seekers citizens. Then break this information down in terms of age gender family size etc.Then do the math.



I see, I'm a liar now. I've worked in social housing, have you? Do you think that places that use the phrase "Bed & Breakfast" are actually the sorts of places where one might find folk on holiday?


----------



## dash_two (Jun 7, 2007)

Anything short of total enthusiasm for open borders is a thought crime!


----------



## nino_savatte (Jun 7, 2007)

dash_two said:
			
		

> Anything short of total enthusiasm for open borders is a thought crime!



Anything short of unqualified enthusiasm for super-tight immigration controls is a thought crime.


----------



## JimPage (Jun 7, 2007)

tbaldwin said:
			
		

> "British jobs for British workers" may have been used by racists but it is not racist.
> It is something that most British workers Black or white agree with...You seem like another old left dinosaur lost in the past.......



but cant you see the train of thought though, which is exactly how the BNP start poisoning people`s minds

1. British jobs for british workers (G Brown,2007) turns into
2. British houses for british people ( P Hodge,2007) which turns into 
3. Britain for the british (N Griffin, 2007)

If you believe in 1 and 2, its not much of a step to believe in 3 -which is the core of what the BNP stand for.


----------



## dash_two (Jun 7, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> Anything short of unqualified enthusiasm for super-tight immigration controls is a thought crime.



I don't think anyone proposing open borders is a bad person. Foolish, certainly, but not bad.


----------



## nino_savatte (Jun 7, 2007)

dash_two said:
			
		

> I don't think anyone proposing open borders is a bad person. Foolish, certainly, but not bad.



I don't think anyone who proposes super tight immigration controls isn't necessarily a bad person. Just misguided, ignorant and lacking a sense of history and perspective.


----------



## nino_savatte (Jun 7, 2007)

Do you have a contribution or a serious point, dash or are we likely to get more of the same shite from you?


----------



## dash_two (Jun 7, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> I don't think anyone who proposes super tight immigration controls isn't necessarily a bad person.



An interesting double negative.


----------



## nino_savatte (Jun 7, 2007)

dash_two said:
			
		

> An interesting double negative.



Speak for yourself, hypocrite. Now have you got a point to make or are you here to pick a fight (and then post the details on MATB for Swarthy)?

I used to have you on ignore. Perhaps I shall reinstate you to my ignore list.


----------



## dash_two (Jun 7, 2007)

You sound like some elderly dowager when you start talking about your famed 'ignore' list.

Right, I want to know what's so great about this open borders notion.

This country doesn't have open borders and I don't know of any that do if they can help it. So you need to sell it to me. On you go.


----------



## nino_savatte (Jun 7, 2007)

dash_two said:
			
		

> You sound like some elderly dowager when you start talking about your famed 'ignore' list.
> 
> Right, I want to know what's so great about this open borders notion.
> 
> This country doesn't have open borders and I don't know of any that do if they can help it. So you need to sell it to me. On you go.



Whereas you sound like an auld pub drunk who's looking for a scrap. 

I want to know what's so great about tighter immigration controls. I'll bet all you can up with is a series of statements based on myths and bigotry.

Over to you, shitheid.


----------



## dash_two (Jun 7, 2007)

You're fired.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 7, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> Speak for yourself, hypocrite. Now have you got a point to make or are you here to pick a fight (and then post the details on MATB for Swarthy)?
> 
> I used to have you on ignore. Perhaps I shall reinstate you to my ignore list.




Unhealthy obession nino.


----------



## dash_two (Jun 7, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> shitheid



On a scale between Rod Stewart and a Chinese-made sporran, how Scottish are you really?


----------



## nino_savatte (Jun 7, 2007)

dash_two said:
			
		

> You're fired.



Why aren't you over on MATB giving Swarthy a handjob?


----------



## nino_savatte (Jun 7, 2007)

torres said:
			
		

> Unhealthy obession nino.



Hardly and there is abundant evidence to support my claim. But then, it would suit you to engage in smears wouldn't it? After all, you are a returning poster, are you not?


----------



## nino_savatte (Jun 7, 2007)

dash_two said:
			
		

> On a scale between Rod Stewart and a Chinese-made sporran, how Scottish are you really?



Go fuck yourself, trollboy.

Your style is pretty familiar. Another returning poster?

Of course you are, you post silly pictures up....it's usually bagels...now a change...it's Alan Sugar.


----------



## durruti02 (Jun 7, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> but cant you see the train of thought though, which is exactly how the BNP start poisoning people`s minds
> 
> 1. British jobs for british workers (G Brown,2007) turns into
> 2. British houses for british people ( P Hodge,2007) which turns into
> ...



ah ha!! fascinating post! so drinking pop as a kid leads to alco pops as a teenager and alcholism in later life???

 .. mate .. the way you therefore deal with it is to NOT kick off at someone like me and millions in real life who say local jobs should go to local people but to deal with the issues .. 3 million unemployed .. and the bosses import immigrants .. it is bullshit .. any socialist should argue that people should be employed locally ..


----------



## durruti02 (Jun 7, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> Durutti, stop playing games. Have you ever worked for a local authority or are you still swallowing the bigoted myths put about by _soi-disant_ 'experts'?
> 
> You refuse to acknowledge the lies and the myths put about regarding social housing provision. Read this carefully: THERE IS NO QUEUE JUMPING. IMMIGRANTS ARE NOT GIVEN PRIORITY TREATMENT.
> 
> There is no confusion, other than the one that you have deliberately constructed for yourself.



no games .. but you ARE evading the question .. to repeat what i asked you in 436 

" .. i see nothing that contradicts the assertion that a young local couple with secure (if cramped) accomodation at their mums and dads will NOT get housed and will see immigrants ( from wherever) get housed IF they are in 'greater need' e.g. childen .. in fact you actually back up this assertion in your second paragraph .." 

you say you work in housing managment .. i most definately do not .. so show me where i am wrong .. 

p.s. you are also being ( deliberately?) disingenuous by suggesting that ANYONE is suggesting immigrants get given flats just for being immigrants .. the argument is about what priority needs to be given, what balance needs to be set, between NEED and LOCAL CONNECTION and LENGTH of residence


----------



## durruti02 (Jun 7, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> 1)In response to your "the right of communities to decide who and how people should live in those communities" I said: *that ain't gonna happen under the present system*.
> 
> 2)You might think it's gonna happen with your "one step at a time" reformist approach, but for people to be able to make a decision like that, first there will first have to be a seismic shift in power away from the present set-up.
> 
> ...



1)?? who said its going to happen in this society .. it is a case of starting somewhere .. 

and 2) a seismic shift will only happen from the base .. we need to start from the very base .. you propose nothing usefull in this .. 

3) how is it devisive??? is it devisive too, to campaign against exporting jobs?? thats essentialy what you are saying  .. it is ludicrous to say it it is devisive to campaign for local jobs for local people

4)good to see we agree on this .. but what is the differrence then between the specific .. grunwicks GG Irish Ferries and the general?? ... the implications/affects are the same .. this is why i have always said immigration is NOT a stand alone issue .. it is part and parcel of neo- liberalism CCT/outsourcing etc

5) good questions .. the process is actually as important as the end result .. it is the demand and exactly the questions yo put that will help rebuild communities and ultimately the class as a revolutionary class .. this is NOT a fudge .. i am serious .. these are the very questions we should be asking .. shold be puting out there .. 

6)youre not right here .. SW has said similar .. as i posted on the Marx thread ..  tbh mate i have not seen any one .. actually accept john cruddas .. talk about these issues .. SP have said some half sensible stuff ..


----------



## becky p (Jun 7, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> Go fuck yourself, trollboy.
> 
> Your style is pretty familiar. Another returning poster?



I guess your little black book must be running out of pages soon,nino.


----------



## audiotech (Jun 7, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> 1)?? who said its going to happen in this society .. it is a case of starting somewhere ..
> 
> and 2) a seismic shift will only happen from the base .. we need to start from the very base .. you propose nothing usefull in this ..
> 
> ...



Starting somewhere? Yeah, and your focus at the mo is a full on attack against immigration and by implication this obsession of yours can only lead to division between workers. Workers of the world unite, unless of course you happen to be an immigrant, migrant, refugee.

I'm at the base, fuckin' born there matey. From immigrant ancestry too. Gonna appeal to my boss to sack me and employ somebody "local" are you?

It's divisive because your rhetoric can only add to divisions already there.

Grunwicks, GG, Irish Ferries, involved unity in action, not divisions.

Help rebuild communities and ultimately the class as a revolutionary class? How does appealing to bosses, trade union leaders, the state, coupled with a full on attack against immigration lead to a 'revolutionary class'? More a reactionary class if they were to follow your lead.

You've bottled it durruti02. You've decided you cannot beat the BNP by notions such as unity and internationalism, so you adopt the rhetoric of an anti-immigrant.

To be clear, not a fascist, or racist anti-immigration message, but a phoney, ultra-leftist one.


----------



## audiotech (Jun 7, 2007)

becky p said:
			
		

> I guess your little black book must be running out of pages soon,nino.



..and you can fuckoff an' all with your pathetic attempts at comedy.


----------



## nino_savatte (Jun 8, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> no games .. but you ARE evading the question .. to repeat what i asked you in 436
> 
> " .. i see nothing that contradicts the assertion that a young local couple with secure (if cramped) accomodation at their mums and dads will NOT get housed and will see immigrants ( from wherever) get housed IF they are in 'greater need' e.g. childen .. in fact you actually back up this assertion in your second paragraph .."
> 
> ...



I'm not "evading" anything" You refuse to understand, despite the evidence that I have given as a _former local authority housing worker_, that there is no priority given to folk because they are immigrants. How many times do I need to say it? You have already made up your mind that immigrants are being advanced up the housing list at the expense of "natives", so why should I bother even discussing this any further?

Are you being deliberately and wilfully ignorant for the sake of it?


----------



## nino_savatte (Jun 8, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> ..and you can fuckoff an' all with your pathetic attempts at comedy.



She should stick to her day job...whatever that is.


----------



## JimPage (Jun 8, 2007)

BNP polled 21% in By Election in Burnham on Crouch Essex, and 10% in a West Sussex County Council by-election yesterday....


----------



## tbaldwin (Jun 8, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> I'm not "evading" anything" You refuse to understand, despite the evidence that I have given as a _former local authority housing worker_, that there is no priority given to folk because they are immigrants. How many times do I need to say it? You have already made up your mind that immigrants are being advanced up the housing list at the expense of "natives", so why should I bother even discussing this any further?
> 
> Are you being deliberately and wilfully ignorant for the sake of it?



Your lying again nino.
The fact? that you worked as a housing officer for Lambeth and Islington does not exactly make you a fountain of knowledge on the subject......

But you do know that the homeless persons act effectivelly means it is often easier to be housed if you come from outside the UK.


----------



## nino_savatte (Jun 8, 2007)

tbaldwin said:
			
		

> Your lying again nino.
> The fact? that you worked as a housing officer for Lambeth and Islington does not exactly make you a fountain of knowledge on the subject......
> 
> But you do know that the homeless persons act effectivelly means it is often easier to be housed if you come from outside the UK.



Another strawman, balders? If you aren't sending out strawmen to do your dirty work, you're lying or smearing me.



> a fountain of knowledge



Come again? What's a fountain of knowledge?  

Have you ever worked in housing, baldwn? No and I'm willing to bet that you don't know anyone who does either.


----------



## durruti02 (Jun 8, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> Starting somewhere? Yeah, and your focus at the mo is a full on attack against immigration and by implication this obsession of yours can only lead to division between workers. Workers of the world unite, unless of course you happen to be an immigrant, migrant, refugee.
> 
> I'm at the base, fuckin' born there matey. From immigrant ancestry too. Gonna appeal to my boss to sack me and employ somebody "local" are you?
> 
> ...



    you've lost it here mate .. bottled it???  sorry you make no sense!!

first off outside of these debates immigration is not on my focus at all .. i am constantly amazed that you and others do not understand that UKPCAN on urban 75 is a DEBATING forum .. where people argue .. this is not the action protest forum .. 

you call me ultra left yet come out with slogans  which yuou have no way of actually bringing to fruition .. that is almost the definition of ultra left ..  workers unity?? who when ?? so as i said before .. you would walk outof a job and allow the bosses to employ cheap labour??? of course you would not !!! so what is you meaningless bull about 'workers unity' 

i'm of immigrant ancestry too .. (my dads first language isnt english) .. most of us are .. this has NO relevance to the debate .. the situation we all live in is the consequence of the devastation brought by capitalism .. the irish famine inequality war and slavery .. 

*but these debates are about whether we want to CONTINUE TO BE the flotsam and jetsam of capitalist economics .. do you???*

you are wrong or nieve about GG and Irish Ferries .. these were about the bosses bringing in immigrants .. it pushed out established staff and both were LOST as the unions FAILED to take effective action .. 

and "..appealing to bosses.."  .. where do you think up such shit!!!  .. never ONCE have I talked about 'appealing to bosses' .. whats wrong with you .. i am talking about campaigning in teh Labour Movement to FORCE the bosses and institution to employ locally FORCE F O R C E capisce????

you last two paras are just nonsense .. i absolutely support internationalism and unity .. but this has to be created not sloganised ..


----------



## brasicritique (Jun 8, 2007)

It is not a question of myths nino –it is a question of perceptions of truth 

and those hundreds of thousands of people who voted far right see the world in a different way to you and your chums but then i am sure that as you and your chums have often demonstrated just call them all ignorant  add on a couple of ‘ists’ and bury your head in the sand it will all go away....

So many posts Nino and not a credible suggestion it is not good enough to simply  tell people as you and kyber suggest that its all a myth .It might be a myth to you but overcrowding lack of housing lack of education etc etc is a reality for some of them.

It will not cut the mustard and its a very lazy argument if you think saying you once worked in a housing department is going to convince people not to vote bnp or believe what you say is the truth simply because you said so-we are living in a period where the power of conspiracy is on the increase as trust in local and national governments is in decline. 

your whole approach to this issue and indeed  the wider issue of the decline of the left is really is childish . But then it is not based on democratic principles or listening to people or engaging with people –it based on an ideology of diktat . This is a very dangerous manner in which to approach such a  subject matter especially as in terms of wider society as we appear to be heading towards some sort of corporate-techo- totalitarian state –. If the left continue as the way they are heading then they are sowing the seeds for a massive backlash over the next 10 years .The far right are not playing for the now they are only interested in there ideology taking hold and becoming seen as a truth- this goal of there perception seen as truth is more important than actually wining seats

you and your chums seem to be haemorrhaging support have you ever considered why this is?

Heres a question for all you leading lights who follow the 1 watt bulb that is nino  to consider

if you were from a white working/under class background  say and given what amounted to a choice of political diktat who would you vote for ?

one which argues that with regards to housing ; we are telling the truth believe us if you disagree with our argument you are ‘ist’ and you cannot be any sort of ‘ist’ join our party but you WILL NOT BE ALLOWED TO THINK WHAT YOU WANT OR SAY WHAT YOU WANT NOW  ie swp respect etc 

or one that argues 

 you can be as ‘ ist as you like’ and we will give you priority housing priority health BUT WE WILL ONLY ALLOW YOU TO THINK WHAT WE WANT AND SAY WHAT WE WANT ONE DAY 

spot the difference or deferrence?

Both ideologies far right left wing depend on an eventual economic meltdown if that were to happen tomorrow who do you think would have the most credibility nino? An swp/respect left wing which some see, and others argue is inseparable from the current mainstream leftwing liberal media/governing metropolitan elite with little relevance to the daily life’s of most people or one that says we told you so –the foreigners are taking your housing and jobs?  

for reasons of demographics nino you need the white working class more that they need you- I also love the way that a lot of people on these boards have just sat back and watched as the black community has also imploded and is finding self help in the church but then following your argument nino  maybe they are neo cons thru and thru and doing this deliberately  as a form of 

"*emotional blackmail" tactic*

You are now scraping the dreggs nino. i have never accused you of being a liar- true i think you are many things you are almost a good a troll as panda if only you were a liar  then the left would not have the massive structural problems that it does and those from the bottom part of society would not be as divided as they are

Jesus was a great con artist but at least he offered heaven – what is it exactly that your marxist/hegelian metaphysical argument is offering? It seems to be that you are only offering the utopia of neo con free market policies 

The only thing Marx was correct about was his idea of class interest i wonder whose class interest you are acting in favour of nino?  

still when the going gets tough nino starts ignoring – is that the official policy of how you and your so called open minded leftwing swp/respect/anarcho/eco friends are going to respond to the growing problems of globalisation and its effect on people who live in this country and throughout the world?


----------



## durruti02 (Jun 8, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> I'm not "evading" anything" You refuse to understand, despite the evidence that I have given as a _former local authority housing worker_, that there is no priority given to folk because they are immigrants. How many times do I need to say it? You have already made up your mind that immigrants are being advanced up the housing list at the expense of "natives", so why should I bother even discussing this any further?
> 
> Are you being deliberately and wilfully ignorant for the sake of it?



I ACCEPT THIS THAT IMMIGRANTS ARE NOT GIVEN PRIORITY .. NOW ANSWER MY QUESTION  WHO GETS PRIORITY HERE????

 " ..a young local couple with secure (if cramped) accomodation at their mums and dads will NOT get housed and will see immigrants ( from wherever) get housed IF they are in 'greater need' e.g. childen .. "


----------



## becky p (Jun 8, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> ..and you can fuckoff an' all with your pathetic attempts at comedy.



My attempts at comedy must seem feeble to a born natural like yerself MC5. 

You and nino could be a very good double act.


----------



## brasicritique (Jun 8, 2007)

Distinctly end of peer one thinks though  becky...end of peer


----------



## audiotech (Jun 8, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> I ACCEPT THIS THAT IMMIGRANTS ARE NOT GIVEN PRIORITY .. NOW ANSWER MY QUESTION  WHO GETS PRIORITY HERE????
> 
> " ..a young local couple with secure (if cramped) accomodation at their mums and dads will NOT get housed and will see immigrants ( from wherever) get housed IF they are in 'greater need' e.g. childen .. "



durruti02, I dealt with someone the other day (middle class and a home owner) who believed that he couldn't get a place for his Mother in a care home because of immigrants getting priority! 

He also spoke about "ethnics" and because of monitoring believed that this was part and parcel of giving preferential treatment to immigrants and by implication black people! Absolute and complete nonsense.

The vast majority of people in care homes are white and born in this country, overwhelmingly so in fact. You'll find very few people from the Black community in care homes and hardly any Asian people (even those born in the UK) and definately no immigrants.

I told him that was an utter and complete myth and explained that "ethnic monitoring" was a tool to enable independent bodies to monitor any discrimination against *any group* by organisations and to ensure that people were fairly treated and represented.

It is important to dispel these myths and not add to them like recent statements from Hodge, who failed to mention that under Housing Law an assessment has to take into account a *local connection to the area* like family, or employment.

What Hodge also didn't mention was the 'dispersal programme', an emergency measure brought in by her Government some years ago. This was an attempt to deal with extra demands on resources in the South of the country with regards to asylum seekers.

This was causing real problems for some local authorities. Those granted refugee status, were in some cases given a high priority after a homelessness assessment. This took place when individuals came to the end of their temporary NASS accommodation. Mostly, those granted refugee status, were placed in low demand, high rise properties. These were so difficult to let that there was even talk of turning them into student accommodation, or sheltered housing for the elderly (floors ripped out and care provision placed on-site).

That's why you get the perception that somehow "immigrants" are given priority.

We have heard all this nonsense before. Instead of pandering to it we should be opposing it for what it is.


----------



## treelover (Jun 8, 2007)

When did this 'revolutionary class',exist MC5, 1917?, what about the here and now, not the utopian never future...



> Help rebuild communities and ultimately the class as a revolutionary class?


----------



## audiotech (Jun 8, 2007)

treelover said:
			
		

> When did this 'revolutionary class',exist MC5, 1917?, what about the here and now, not the utopian never future...



Didn't read the post properly did you. It was a question put to durruti02 using his words you sectarian muppet. 

Mind you, when did you ever let accuracy get in the way of your bile?




			
				durruti02 said:
			
		

> good questions .. the process is actually as important as the end result .. it is the demand and exactly the questions yo put that will help rebuild communities and ultimately the class as a revolutionary class .. this is NOT a fudge .. i am serious .. these are the very questions we should be asking .. shold be puting out there ..


----------



## becky p (Jun 9, 2007)

brasicattack said:
			
		

> Distinctly end of peer one thinks though  becky...end of peer



Probably be best if they Jumped.


----------



## nino_savatte (Jun 9, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> I ACCEPT THIS THAT IMMIGRANTS ARE NOT GIVEN PRIORITY .. NOW ANSWER MY QUESTION  WHO GETS PRIORITY HERE????
> 
> " ..a young local couple with secure (if cramped) accomodation at their mums and dads will NOT get housed and will see immigrants ( from wherever) get housed IF they are in 'greater need' e.g. childen .. "



I answered your question but you decided to ignore it. I am not going to repeat myself for the sake of your ego. Go back and read the post, there's a good boy.


----------



## durruti02 (Jun 9, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> I answered your question but you decided to ignore it. I am not going to repeat myself for the sake of your ego. Go back and read the post, there's a good boy.



i do not think you did .. if you did ...  apologys .. what post was it in? 

if you mean you repeated again that no priority is given to immigrants than i accept that .. what you did not answer is my specific instance .. could you do that now as it is the most common bnp type accusation and we need to be clear on it?

" ..a young local couple with secure (if cramped) accomodation at their mums and dads will NOT get housed and will see immigrants ( from wherever) get housed IF they are in 'greater need' e.g. childen .. "


----------



## durruti02 (Jun 9, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> durruti02, I dealt with someone the other day (middle class and a home owner) who believed that he couldn't get a place for his Mother in a care home because of immigrants getting priority!
> 
> He also spoke about "ethnics" and because of monitoring believed that this was part and parcel of giving preferential treatment to immigrants and by implication black people! Absolute and complete nonsense.
> 
> ...



I agree almost 100% with your post MC  .. and i would add that many more instances of people seeing migrnats taking flats ( apart from NASS) are actually RTB flats being rented out at exorbitant rents

but i am afraid that you are missing out a key fact .. every year over 100k migrants get given secure status ( i gave the link a few days ago .. mostly after 5 years etc ) and most of these qualify for and receive social housing .. 

one issue i said to you earlier is the differrence between the south east/london and lancs ( where i asume you live) .. the vast majority of recent migrants setle here for economic and social reasons .. and hence the impact is far greater than you see 

and to repeat there is none of this hard to let anymore down here .. long gone .. 

p.s. where i live the majority of care home residents are afrocarib


----------



## audiotech (Jun 9, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> I agree almost 100% with your post MC
> 
> but i am afraid that you are missing out a key fact .. every year over 100k migrants get given secure status ( i gave the link a few days ago .. mostly after 5 years etc ) and most of these qualify for and receive social housing ..
> 
> p.s. where i live the majority of care home residents are afrocarib



I need to see that link again for accuracy like.

Is that just the one care home?


----------



## durruti02 (Jun 9, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> I need to see that link again for accuracy like.
> 
> Is that just the one care home?



no all of them!!   .. high % afrocarib where i live .. 

the link is http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs04/hosb1204.pdf

see e.g. paragraph 21 


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3621964.stm

"There was an increase of 29 per cent in the number of people settling in the UK in 2005 to 179, 120, with employment-related grants of settlement rising by 49 per cent to 63,015"

http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:...+of+settlement"+2006&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5&gl=uk


p.s. i assume you accept what i say that we should not accept being the flotsam and jetsam of capitalist economics!???


----------



## nino_savatte (Jun 10, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> i do not think you did .. if you did ...  apologys .. what post was it in?
> 
> if you mean you repeated again that no priority is given to immigrants than i accept that .. what you did not answer is my specific instance .. could you do that now as it is the most common bnp type accusation and we need to be clear on it?
> 
> " ..a young local couple with secure (if cramped) accomodation at their mums and dads will NOT get housed and will see immigrants ( from wherever) get housed IF they are in 'greater need' e.g. childen .. "



You keep sending out this strawman, durutti. It's boring.


----------



## audiotech (Jun 10, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> no all of them!!   .. high % afrocarib where i live ..
> 
> the link is http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs04/hosb1204.pdf
> 
> ...



'flotsam and jetsam'? We are talking about people here.  

You can play the numbers game if you want, but I'm more a humanitarian.

As for care homes? Can you quote the relevant point because I had a quick look at the link you posted and it appeared to be about asylum and immigration and not care homes.  

Anyway, nationally the vast majority of older people in said care homes are white, which would be the case seeing as the vast majority of the population are, err just that.


----------



## becky p (Jun 10, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> You can play the numbers game if you want, but I'm more a humanitarian.


You really are an example to us all.  No wonder nobody wants to go to your union meetings.


----------



## durruti02 (Jun 12, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> You keep sending out this strawman, durutti. It's boring.



strawman?? no  

 .. this is the most common accusation that people come up with about housing .. this is the sort of thing the BNP are feeding off .. it is VERY important we  are clear

so, nino as an ex housing officer, i thought you would be able to answer it ... why do you not?


"strawman - a weak or sham argument set up to be easily refuted
or ... a specious argument - an argument that appears good at first view but is really fallacious" from http://www.thefreedictionary.com/strawman

so if it is easily refuted .. refute it .. if it is fallacious .. show it to be so ..

3908


----------



## audiotech (Jun 12, 2007)

becky p said:
			
		

> You really are an example to us all.  No wonder nobody wants to go to your union meetings.



Not comedy night again.


----------



## durruti02 (Jun 12, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> 'flotsam and jetsam'? We are talking about people here.
> 
> You can play the numbers game if you want, but I'm more a humanitarian.
> 
> ...



people?? damn right .. and you seem to think it is OK that people are forced to migrate  .. 

you ask for references .. i give .. you ignore .. whatever ..  

care homes?? .. its only just down the thread .. 

p.s. your last para makes no sense ..


----------



## audiotech (Jun 12, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> people?? damn right .. and you seem to think it is OK that people are forced to migrate  ..
> 
> you ask for references .. i give .. you ignore .. whatever ..
> 
> ...



Sure, the mate who is now in Australia married to his girlfriend was forced to do it, as were the 800,000 brits now living in Spain were.  

Try reading the para again, you never know it may click into place.


----------



## durruti02 (Jun 12, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> Sure, the mate who is now in Australia married to his girlfriend was forced to do it, as were the 800,000 brits now living in Spain were.
> 
> Try reading the para again, you never know it may click into place.



and of course those migrants are not pushed!!  .. and if you notice i argue most people currently are NOT forced put pulled .. i think you missed the point that i was responding to you about  that historically much migration was push .. famine war etc 

i am not sure what the argument was about care homes .. all i said was where i live many residents are afrocarib as and it reflects the area ..

tbh this is all not really relevent to the thread ..

( edited as missed out 'course' in 'of course')


----------



## nino_savatte (Jun 13, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> strawman?? no
> 
> .. this is the most common accusation that people come up with about housing .. this is the sort of thing the BNP are feeding off .. it is VERY important we  are clear
> 
> ...



You're trading in myths again. So, rather than challenge the myths and lies of the BNP, you are quite happy to accept these myths because they have been disseminated by the BNP and members of your 'community' believe them.

Here you say that you accept what I say in one breath and then in the next, you try to make me out to be a liar.



> if you mean you repeated again that no priority is given to immigrants than i accept that .. what you did not answer is my specific instance .. could you do that now as it is the most common bnp type accusation and we need to be clear on it?



You want me to comment on an isolated case that you have mentioned? Wtf? Next, you'll be asking me to do fortune telling....is my name Petulengro?  

You're very slippery and it's no wonder most people give up on you.


----------



## durruti02 (Jun 14, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> You're trading in myths again. So, rather than challenge the myths and lies of the BNP, you are quite happy to accept these myths because they have been disseminated by the BNP and members of your 'community' believe them.
> 
> Here you say that you accept what I say in one breath and then in the next, you try to make me out to be a liar.
> 
> ...



so go on .. answer the question then .. its not really fortune telling is it!! and as you said you were a housing officer so i thought you might be able to answer it!! 

imagine i am a victim of the bnps propaganda .. refute their evil lies .. be an anti facist superhero!! 

so again the scenario is this  ..  

" ..a young local couple with secure (if cramped) accomodation at their mums and dads will NOT get housed and will see immigrants ( from wherever) get housed IF they are in 'greater need' e.g. children .. "

true or false true or false true or false??

(p.s. the question is NOT will that immigrant family get housed for being immigrants .. we all know this is NOT The case)

p.s. isolated case!!!??? you bonkers!!!


----------



## audiotech (Jun 14, 2007)

Over 300 local people demonstrated in Corsham, Wiltshire, against a BNP member claiming a seat on the town council. BNP councillor Michael Simpkins took the ward of Rudloe uncontested in the May council elections.

http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=12085


----------



## audiotech (Jun 14, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> so again the scenario is this  ..
> 
> " ..a young local couple with secure (if cramped) accomodation at their mums and dads will NOT get housed and will see immigrants ( from wherever) get housed IF they are in 'greater need' e.g. children .. "
> 
> true or false true or false true or false??



What if the property on offer is a one bedroomed flat, or house?


----------



## JimPage (Jun 15, 2007)

BNP Polled 25% yesterday in Manchester Charleston, 29.3% in Rochford Hockley and 18.7% in Havering St Andrews

The fight against fascism continues.....


----------



## durruti02 (Jun 15, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> What if the property on offer is a one bedroomed flat, or house?



good question! (which i was replying too as the boards went down yesterday!)

i think it helps in looking at the scenario i put ( to nino ..hes the housing officer! and still waiting for his response )  ..

" ..a young local couple with secure (if cramped) accomodation at their mums and dads will NOT get housed and will see immigrants ( from wherever) get housed IF they are in 'greater need' e.g. children .. "

 it would be unlikely that a homeless family would get housed in a one bedroom .. i suspect that one bedrooms have been used a lot for refugees by NASS .. 

it is more likely that an immigrant family in need will get a family house .. and that the 'issue' with this would then be that a local family who have outgrown their home  can not get upgraded .. 

so 2 scenarios for advice on!


----------



## durruti02 (Jun 15, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> BNP Polled 25% yesterday in Manchester Charleston, 29.3% in Rochford Hockley and 18.7% in Havering St Andrews
> 
> The fight against fascism continues.....


 ... clearly not very well! 
 

or are these results lower than before?? seem pretty high to me


----------



## JimPage (Jun 15, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> ... clearly not very well!
> 
> 
> or are these results lower than before?? seem pretty high to me



all first time votes in the wards concerned- and best fascist result,ever, in Manchester. The havering result would put BNP on course for a GLA seat , if they can get their act together in the parts of london they are not organised in.

Third way also polled 6% in Havering - so a 25% fash vote in total


----------



## nino_savatte (Jun 16, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> so go on .. answer the question then .. its not really fortune telling is it!! and as you said you were a housing officer so i thought you might be able to answer it!!
> 
> imagine i am a victim of the bnps propaganda .. refute their evil lies .. be an anti facist superhero!!
> 
> ...



I have told you that immigrants are not given priority over others with regards to social housing. You keep suggesting, in a roundabout sort of way, that this is not the case and offer up red herrings, in the hope that you might trip me up. But there is little point in that strategy: I have presented the facts, it's up to you to accept myths over them, as you have here:



> " ..a young local couple with secure (if cramped) accomodation at their mums and dads will NOT get housed and will see immigrants ( from wherever) get housed IF they are in 'greater need' e.g. children ..



It's up to the individuals to apply for social housing. If folk sit around and moan about immigrants and housing but do not put themselves on the list, they only have themselves to blame.

Oh and refugees (I refuse to use the media-created term "asylum seeker") are  not entitled to benefits.



> imagine i am a victim of the bnps propaganda .. refute their evil lies .. be an anti facist superhero!!



Stop talking rot.


----------



## treelover (Jun 16, 2007)

What part of manchester, usually such groups do well on the fringes of a city, working class area,  tory club, orange club, etc, 

and the result in Havering is astonishing, even 6% for an  obscure right wing ideology

The no borders lot and the lollipop wavers will have to come up with something much more sophisticated now: 69% of the uk, which clealry must include many BEM's (in a recent poll) now see mass immigration as problematic,


----------



## tbaldwin (Jun 16, 2007)

treelover said:
			
		

> What part of manchester, usually such groups do well on the fringes of a city, working class area,  tory club, orange club, etc,
> 
> and the result in Havering is astonishing, even 6% for an  obscure right wing ideology
> 
> The no borders lot and the lollipop wavers will have to come up with something much more sophisticated now: 69% of the uk, which clealry must include many BEM's (in a recent poll) now see mass immigration as problematic,



The thing that makes me laugh is when people like nino come out with great lines like "do you know any black people" do they seriously imagine that most Black people in this country agree with their narrow minded views on the issue of immigration?


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jun 16, 2007)

treelover said:
			
		

> What part of manchester, usually such groups do well on the fringes of a city, working class area,  tory club, orange club, etc,
> 
> and the result in Havering is astonishing, even 6% for an  obscure right wing ideology
> 
> The no borders lot and the lollipop wavers will have to come up with something much more sophisticated now: 69% of the uk, which clealry must include many BEM's (in a recent poll) now see mass immigration as problematic,


 in some respects I think you're right.  There is a massive problem dealing with the hostility there is to immigration.  And I honestly cannot see any way to deal with it.  Trying to stop immigration is  be king kanute.  You would have more chance of stopping the tide, then stopping immigration.  Migration is the modern phenomena.  The world has become a global village.  Travel is so cheap, even the poor can afford it.  And it is happening in every direction.  Recently went to Cyprus, the Greek part, with a population of around 750,000.  62,000 of them are English.  Mostly wealthy English, what we would call lower-middle-class, who are pricing locals out of homes.  Horses for courses.  Every form of migration presents problems and opportunities, in my humble opinion.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jun 16, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> Over 300 local people demonstrated in Corsham, Wiltshire, against a BNP member claiming a seat on the town council. BNP councillor Michael Simpkins took the ward of Rudloe uncontested in the May council elections.
> 
> http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=12085



That's good news - he won't keep his seat next time and has blown it in the long term in that area...


----------



## The Black Hand (Jun 16, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> good question! (which i was replying too as the boards went down yesterday!)
> 
> i think it helps in looking at the scenario i put ( to nino ..hes the housing officer! and still waiting for his response )  ..
> 
> ...



The migrants would get priority because they are in greater need with children - this is not an issue, this is what exists and has existed like this for some considerable time. Apologies, but I must say it _looks like_ a racist position not to support this equal opportunity of access according to need principle regardless of the politics you have (or have had). I appreciate this is a managerialist Labour position, but this is the working reality of government.

I think I am getting more radical in my old age  - I think it (unequal opportunity/'pro' migrant scare stories) is being spread within working class communities by those who are at best niave regarding the propaganda information and the presentation of this sort of reactionary politics. For that it what it is. Arguing over access to housing and better managerial access for 'locals' (a category that I have many problems with) gets out of the political into arguements based on false constructions, such as 'migrants', 'immigrants', 'race' (all ideas with no basis). I prefer to argue over housing policy/building/ etc as that is the only realistic long term solution.

In Hackney Migrants and locals already are in council housing which is vastly over subscribed in terms of population, with no hope of relocation within Hackney eg. 2 parents 4 kids in 2 bed council flat, (4 kids in 1 bedroom).


----------



## The Black Hand (Jun 16, 2007)

ResistanceMP3 said:
			
		

> in some respects I think you're right.  There is a massive problem dealing with the hostility there is to immigration.  And I honestly cannot see any way to deal with it.  Trying to stop immigration is  be king kanute.  You would have more chance of stopping the tide, then stopping immigration.  Migration is the modern phenomena.  The world has become a global village.  Travel is so cheap, even the poor can afford it.  And it is happening in every direction.  Recently went to Cyprus, the Greek part, with a population of around 750,000.  62,000 of them are English.  Mostly wealthy English, what we would call lower-middle-class, who are pricing locals out of homes.  Horses for courses.  Every form of migration presents problems and opportunities, in my humble opinion.



True - Brits in Spain have been forcing house prices up for some time - the housing prices in Spain are due a crash too - so if you want to make some money that might be an area to look 

To add; that here's another theory for you which I have not tested anywhere, which could be worth researching, and _that is what would be the petit bourgeois class composition of a UK fascist cadre have already left Britain_. They are now living abroad, throughout Europe, but mostly in Spain. These are the petit bourgeois who have some money and decided to look after themselves. Here, the historical lack of politicisation within the general public in Britain has worked in 'our' favour, by removing the social class who could be a danger and dispersing them throughout Europe so what power they could have had, has dissapated.


----------



## nino_savatte (Jun 16, 2007)

tbaldwin said:
			
		

> The thing that makes me laugh is when people like nino come out with great lines like "do you know any black people" do they seriously imagine that most Black people in this country agree with their narrow minded views on the issue of immigration?



Oh please, give it a rest. This poll that treelover alludes too, is all too typical of polls conducted on this or on any other subject. There is hostility to immigrants; newcomers, if you prefer; there always has been. There's nothing new about that. There is nothing new about the widespread myths that are associated with the fear of newcomers either. The poll tells me nothing new and neither do you.

You're pissing in the wind...again.


----------



## treelover (Jun 16, 2007)

Attica, I think you may be onto something there, a bit like the Pied Noirs in Algeria, but in reverse, but we are still an incredibly conservative country , with a small C though.


----------



## durruti02 (Jun 17, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> I have told you that immigrants are not given priority over others with regards to social housing. You keep suggesting, in a roundabout sort of way, that this is not the case and offer up red herrings, in the hope that you might trip me up.



nino .. you are being very very very slippery  

.. NO ONE is suggesting AT ALL that migrants get housing on the basis of being migrants AS YOU CONTINUAL SUGGEST  

what is being asked of you is about this scenario 

" ..a young local couple with secure (if cramped) accomodation at their mums and dads will NOT get housed and will see immigrants ( from wherever) get housed IF they are in 'greater need' e.g. children .. "

simply try to answer this .. 

MC, indirectly, has introduced another scenario .. who gets housed on a family house .. a homeless family or a local family who needs more rooms?


----------



## durruti02 (Jun 17, 2007)

treelover said:
			
		

> What part of manchester, usually such groups do well on the fringes of a city, working class area,  tory club, orange club, etc,
> 
> and the result in Havering is astonishing, even 6% for an  obscure right wing ideology
> 
> The no borders lot and the lollipop wavers will have to come up with something much more sophisticated now: 69% of the uk, which clealry must include many BEM's (in a recent poll) now see mass immigration as problematic,



harringtons mob have been active in havering since the 8ts .. so not so suprising


----------



## durruti02 (Jun 17, 2007)

ResistanceMP3 said:
			
		

> in some respects I think you're right.  There is a massive problem dealing with the hostility there is to immigration.  And I honestly cannot see any way to deal with it.  Trying to stop immigration is  be king kanute.  You would have more chance of stopping the tide, then stopping immigration.  Migration is the modern phenomena.  The world has become a global village.  Travel is so cheap, even the poor can afford it.  And it is happening in every direction.  Recently went to Cyprus, the Greek part, with a population of around 750,000.  62,000 of them are English.  Mostly wealthy English, what we would call lower-middle-class, who are pricing locals out of homes.  Horses for courses.  Every form of migration presents problems and opportunities, in my humble opinion.



so lets look for a class based solution!!


----------



## durruti02 (Jun 17, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> 1)The migrants would get priority because they are in greater need with children - this is not an issue, this is what exists and has existed like this for some considerable time. Apologies, but I must say it _looks like_ a racist position not to support this equal opportunity of access according to need principle regardless of the politics you have (or have had). I appreciate this is a managerialist Labour position, but this is the working reality of government.
> 
> 2)I think I am getting more radical in my old age  - I think it (unequal opportunity/'pro' migrant scare stories) is being spread within working class communities by those who are at best niave regarding the propaganda information and the presentation of this sort of reactionary politics. For that it what it is. Arguing over access to housing and better managerial access for 'locals' (a category that I have many problems with) gets out of the political into arguements based on false constructions, such as 'migrants', 'immigrants', 'race' (all ideas with no basis).
> 
> ...



1) well at least you have the bottle to say this unlike some on here .. but yes you are falling into a managerial position instead of one that is aimed at increasing community power/belief/sustainability .. you need to look at this migration with the background of mass unemployment and neo liberalism .. 

2) i absolutely think you have the cart before the horse here .. it is BECAUSE of what you describe that we need to be 100% clear about what is going on .. that we need to be honest and up front .. you do not deal with myth by attacking those who fall for them as nazis and racists .. you do not deal with myth by pretending there is no material issue at all  

3) this misses out the base and any attempt at community building and also ignores what IS happenning with housing .. there is NO overall housing shortage .. the issue os an overheating south , cowboy builders and an economic pull into areas with shortage .. 

4) absolutely .. and these 2nd 3rd generation communities are being fked over ..


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jun 17, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> so lets look for a class based solution!!


precisely, unite with the immigrants, not the bosses and the fascists!


----------



## nino_savatte (Jun 18, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> harringtons mob have been active in havering since the 8ts .. so not so suprising



And Harrington is a something of a national syndicalist iirc.


----------



## nino_savatte (Jun 18, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> nino .. you are being very very very slippery
> 
> .. NO ONE is suggesting AT ALL that migrants get housing on the basis of being migrants AS YOU CONTINUAL SUGGEST
> 
> ...



I'm not being "slippery", durutti; and I have already told you how the housing allocation system works. Your scenario is a red herring.


----------



## JimPage (Jun 18, 2007)

treelover said:
			
		

> What part of manchester, usually such groups do well on the fringes of a city, working class area,  tory club, orange club, etc,


Charlestown Ward- result below

Liberal Democrat 239 
British National Party 628 
Tory 188 
Labour Party1373 
Green Party 81 

No idea what area like, other than as can be seen solid labour


----------



## JimPage (Jun 18, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> harringtons mob have been active in havering since the 8ts .. so not so suprising



they nearly got elected in nearby Elm Park ward in 2006- Havering seems to be the only place where they have an organisation to speak of. Harrington is up here in Scotland  but is quite sensibly not politically active...


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jun 18, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> Charlestown Ward- result below
> 
> Liberal Democrat 239
> British National Party 628
> ...


by comparison 2006 results



> Charlestown. Electorate: 9,053 Turnout: 29.4%
> Vivienne Inez Clarke 	The Conservative Party Candidate 	388
> Helen Sarah Dolan 	Green Party 	159
> Eric Hobin
> ...


Everything seems to be down, the turnout, and the number of votes for the three main parties.  But the vote nearly matches votes lost by the UK Independence party and the Conservative party.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jun 18, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> 1) well at least you have the bottle to say this unlike some on here .. but yes you are falling into a managerial position instead of one that is aimed at increasing community power/belief/sustainability .. you need to look at this migration with the background of mass unemployment and neo liberalism ..
> 
> 2) i absolutely think you have the cart before the horse here .. it is BECAUSE of what you describe that we need to be 100% clear about what is going on .. that we need to be honest and up front .. you do not deal with myth by attacking those who fall for them as nazis and racists .. you do not deal with myth by pretending there is no material issue at all
> 
> ...



1) Was more a description of 'what happens' rather than my preferred scenario. I agree with Nino, the scenario you wanted answering does not exist, it is a completely hypothetical proposition.

2) I agree there is a material issue, but this cannot be divorced from wider economics. To do so is to capitulate to ignorance masquarading as 'common sense' (which in this case is reactionary sense).

3) I said what I preferred to argue over, asking me what I suggest regarding community building is a completely different question. 

Up here, in the under populated north housing does not appear to be much of an issue, endless poverty is the issue here. Class is still the dominant way people understand the world - in my town there are perhaps 3 migrant families and no visible anxiety. Though contrary to my previous posting there now appears to be some local BNP in my town, I still haven't seen any of them, and their 'local' condidate was not from this town and lives 7/8 miles away. Though they have no political life which is noticeable and did poorly in the election (7th out of 7 standing). 

Regarding 'what is happening with housing', policy cannot be separated from what goes on 'on the ground' - there are some links, and i agree that we should be able to talk about peoples experience. If people experience what has happenend to them in a racist manner, due to some variant of working class British imperialist culture, then engaging with a particular part of this phenomena is not going to have any effect on transmission for the next generation(s). Working class culture is not _essentially _racist, it is constantly projected and rebuilt. It is possible to engage on acutall allocation and policy from a working class perspective which talks about the problems and says migrants are being doubly victimised, cos that is migrant reality now.

Here's another migrant scare for you - I know there are lots (thousands) of workers who go down South every week and have temporary digs. This takes more housing off the market, and highers prices for the locals, takes their jobs, etc squeezing supply. SO perhaps you should spread 'White Northerner scare stories' to divide the racist vote


----------



## The Black Hand (Jun 18, 2007)

treelover said:
			
		

> Attica, I think you may be onto something there, a bit like the Pied Noirs in Algeria, but in reverse, but we are still an incredibly conservative country , with a small C though.



CHeers, yes I do think it would be worth some academics getting a large grant and doing some interesting research for a change  

SOme twat from the Economic Research COuncil (Professor Smith, Derby Uni I believe) has just said the dole up North should be cut because it means us unemployed northerners are having a whale of a time on the money they are paying us. I would have no grief if his car was smashed up by some irate Derby locals working in solidarity for their northern bretheren...  Edit to add; "Just read that he was visiting Derby - dunno where he is based".

I repeat - what a twat.

Here's a link to his photo - http://www.derby.ac.uk/press-office/news-archive/are-you-valued-where-you-live

http://icnewcastle.icnetwork.co.uk/...objectid=19313798&siteid=50081-name_page.html
'Cut North benefits'Jun 18 2007

By Chloe Griffiths, The Journal

A controversial report has declared people in the North should be paid lower benefits in a bid to end the region's "dole culture". 

The study argues that people in the region should be paid less in unemployment benefits and receive a less generous minimum wage than their counterparts in the South.

The Economic Research Council's report even suggests the minimum wage for workers in the North-East should be slashed by 57p an hour to just £4.78.

The Think Tank - Britain's oldest examining economic issues - also claims substantial cuts should be made to the minimum wage in Yorkshire, Northern Ireland and Wales, while the rate in London should be increased.

It claims "unfair and intrusive" tax and benefits are fuelling a "dole culture" in the region.

But yesterday MPs and business leaders in the region poured scorn on the suggestion - insisting it would further penalise the North-East. Director of manufacturing organisation EEF Northern Alan Hall said: "I can see no reason why they should differentiate between the North and the South.


"A national minimum wage should not be used to create further divides. I think the region has come a long way in the last 15 to 20 years and it doesn't have the same level of unemployment it once did. Generally people are between jobs and to give less benefits would only penalise them when they need help."


The sentiments were echoed by Newcastle East and Wallsend MP Nick Brown.

He said: "It would only exacerbate any differences in working pay between the North and the South. The challenge is to get the economy of the North more like the economy of the UK in general."

He added: "Making people who are poor poorer is not the answer. The minimum wage is not there to set different standards, it is supposed to be a safety net."

Using a raft of official labour market and price data, the study says maintaining a standard level of unemployment benefits is encouraging people in the region not to work, while penalising more productive southerners, who have to suffer higher living costs and house prices.

Prof David Smith from the University of Derby, who produced the report, argues it removes the incentive to work in parts of the country where wages are lower.

Prof Smith said: "If you are in London benefits are a very poor substitute for work.

"If you are in the North-East, benefits are a very good substitute for work - so you tend to get far more people on benefits up there."


He went on to brand the system "unfair". He added: "Britain's tax and benefits system has got more unfair over the past 10 years. The minimum wage for Londoners is effectively a joke - laughably low."


----------



## durruti02 (Jun 19, 2007)

ResistanceMP3 said:
			
		

> precisely, unite with the immigrants, not the bosses and the fascists!



i do when and where i can .. i suspect more than most on here   .. how many posters of those who attack me for being a xenophobe and closet racist etc etc  are actively and successfully recruiting eastern european workers to their union????? most of these 'socialists' are not even shop stewards!!!

but your post is really almost, almost, empty and meaningless .. a a cliche .. what doe sit mean in practice???  how at Gate Gormet or Irish Ferries does what you say work??  

when we have millions on the dole , when as you agree the bossess are actively recruiting cheap labour abroad,  your slogan is almost meaningless ... it is not that it is wrong .. it is that is is in the wrong time or place 

the key issue for socialists, workers and unions here should be demanding that bosses recruit locally at a living wage .. that bosses do e.g. NOT poach nurses or import labour .. No???


----------



## durruti02 (Jun 19, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> I'm not being "slippery", durutti; and I have already told you how the housing allocation system works. Your scenario is a red herring.



being slippery again??  

 .. it is on myth and red herrings that facism thrives .. it would be better for all if you answered the scenarios .. 

p.s. it is instructive that you do not ... you have NOT explained how housing allocation works .. you have just parroted endlessly that migrants, as migrants, do NOT get preferential treatment .. to which NO one disagrees!


----------



## durruti02 (Jun 19, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> 1) Was more a description of 'what happens' rather than my preferred scenario. I agree with Nino, the scenario you wanted answering does not exist, it is a completely hypothetical proposition.
> 
> 2) I agree there is a material issue, but this cannot be divorced from wider economics. To do so is to capitulate to ignorance masquarading as 'common sense' (which in this case is reactionary sense).
> 
> ...



1) yes of course it is hypothetical!!!!!!!! every housing situation is unique .. but the two scenarios i put are in general circulation and to simply refuse to answer as nino does is nonsense ... and these are what the bnp etc come out with .. to ignore them is not nor does work .. 

2) i agree .. but you can not as experiance shows shout about the general if yoiu are not open and honest about the specific .. it just does not wash 

3)i think  my point was it is the immediate that is important to have an answer for .. 

yes of course where you and i are are differrent housing worlds currently .. i am not generalising to where you live .. but i daisgree that poeple are experianceing this in a raciall manner .. they see it as a rights and wrongs as a lack of fairness .. i do NOT see any rise in racism .. 

the point about northern workers is interesting .. yes they did used to come to the south as skilled and unskilled labour .. and my point would stand exactly as before .. i would say the same thing .. that workers should be recruited locally .. it is no differrent .. and interestingly in fact many thousends have LOST work they used to do since EU enlargement ..


----------



## nino_savatte (Jun 20, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> being slippery again??
> 
> .. it is on myth and red herrings that facism thrives .. it would be better for all if you answered the scenarios ..
> 
> p.s. it is instructive that you do not ... you have NOT explained how housing allocation works .. you have just parroted endlessly that migrants, as migrants, do NOT get preferential treatment .. to which NO one disagrees!



I have already told you how the system works. All you have done is suggest that I'm "lying" and that immigrants jump the housing queues. I'm not going back to find the post but I know that I already told you how it works. if you want it, you go and find it.

Just to repeat: Your scenarios are red herrings.

BTW you keep contradicting yourself and you appear to want it both ways.

It would be better if you could try to be honest for a change.


----------



## tbaldwin (Jun 20, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> I have already told you how the system works. All you have done is suggest that I'm "lying" and that immigrants jump the housing queues. I'm not going back to find the post but I know that I already told you how it works. if you want it, you go and find it.
> 
> Just to repeat: Your scenarios are red herrings.
> 
> ...



Nino some stats and facts might help..Of the Inner London Boroughs say could you tell people what % of flats newly let went to people who had been in the country for less than 5 years?


----------



## dash_two (Jun 20, 2007)

I hope nino didn't allow anti-English racism to influence any of his decisions when working as a housing 'officer'. Not saying that happened, just that we've all got the potential to be swayed subconsciously by ethnic self-interest and negative stereotypes of others.


----------



## nino_savatte (Jun 20, 2007)

tbaldwin said:
			
		

> Nino some stats and facts might help..Of the Inner London Boroughs say could you tell people what % of flats newly let went to people who had been in the country for less than 5 years?



Tell you what, you don't believe me, so why don't you pop off down to your local town hall and get the figures for your borough yourself. There's nothing stopping you.


----------



## nino_savatte (Jun 20, 2007)

dash_two said:
			
		

> I hope nino didn't allow anti-English racism to influence any of his decisions when working as a housing 'officer'. Not saying that happened, just that we've all got the potential to be swayed subconsciously by ethnic self-interest and negative stereotypes of others.



You can't win the argument so you resort to smear tactics. Cute.


----------



## treelover (Jun 20, 2007)

Would this be with the Patels, those 'militant' former Ugandan East Asians who own the global food empire, or the Moons who tried to ban unions, many many migrants want to leave the working class, etc, behind as soon as possible, just look at the US. Simpistic argments which show why the 19 C left is flailing and failing.




> precisely, unite with the immigrants, not the bosses and the fascists!


----------



## nino_savatte (Jun 20, 2007)

The same is true of a great many w/c. People forget about social mobility and others would rather use it as a stick to beat certain folk with.


----------



## tbaldwin (Jun 20, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> Tell you what, you don't believe me, so why don't you pop off down to your local town hall and get the figures for your borough yourself. There's nothing stopping you.



Bit busy at work....Planning to throw asylum seekers into the Thames with Blunkettt and Straw....Do you not know the stats nino?


----------



## nino_savatte (Jun 20, 2007)

tbaldwin said:
			
		

> Bit busy at work....Planning to throw asylum seekers into the Thames with Blunkettt and Straw....Do you not know the stats nino?



You demand stats and proof but fail to deliver on those things yourself. 

Go whistle.


----------



## durruti02 (Jun 20, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> I have already told you how the system works. All you have done is suggest that I'm "lying" and that immigrants jump the housing queues. I'm not going back to find the post but I know that I already told you how it works. if you want it, you go and find it.
> 
> Just to repeat: Your scenarios are red herrings.
> 
> ...



no nino you have NOT answered ANYTHING

 .. you keep repeating a straw man of immigrants getting preferenial treatment or as you say above 'jumping the housing queue' ..  no one is saying this 

you are simply being asked your opinion on two scenarios. one is this 

" ..a young local couple with secure (if cramped) accomodation at their mums and dads will NOT get housed and will see immigrants ( from wherever) get housed IF they are in 'greater need' e.g. children .. "


the other is this 

" a couple in a small flat where the chidren are sharing and they need more room will not get rehoused and will see immigrants (from wherever) get housed IF they are in 'greater need' e.g. more children "

both of these scenarios are key to the BNP propaganda .. please as an ex? housing officer give us all a clear rundown on these scenarios ..


----------



## durruti02 (Jun 20, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> You demand stats and proof but fail to deliver on those things yourself.
> 
> Go whistle.



trouble is nino .. you're the housing officer not tb or me ..


----------



## nino_savatte (Jun 21, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> trouble is nino .. you're the housing officer not tb or me ..



You refuse to listen and why? Because you want to think that immigrants are pushing their way to the top of housing lists. You swallow the lies and the myths because you lack the capability of looking at the facts. You don't want to know because it would upset your cosy wee world where immigrants take food from the mouths of babes.


----------



## nino_savatte (Jun 21, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> no nino you have NOT answered ANYTHING



I have. Now if you don't like the answer, tough. Those are the facts. You have recycled what you describe as "BNP propaganda" in the hope that I will say "Ah, yes, the immigrants are being moved to the top of the housing list". Sorry but it doesn't work like that. Why? Because it isn't true.


----------



## durruti02 (Jun 21, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> I have. Now if you don't like the answer, tough. Those are the facts. You have recycled what you describe as "BNP propaganda" in the hope that I will say "Ah, yes, the immigrants are being moved to the top of the housing list". Sorry but it doesn't work like that. Why? Because it isn't true.



please show me where you answered this as for the life of me i can not see it .. you have repeated over and over that migrants do not jump queues etc when no one is arguing this! talk about evasion! 

your refusal to deal with these two scenairos speaks volumes .. i might even say it shows that you know the answer but your are too ? to admit it .. 

i think you know the answer .. that the family in greater housing need will get housed before / will get priority over the family in lesser need .. is that true?? 

and in many case that will be the migrant family NOT the local family .. true or not true?


----------



## durruti02 (Jun 21, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> You refuse to listen and why? Because you want to think that immigrants are pushing their way to the top of housing lists. You swallow the lies and the myths because you lack the capability of looking at the facts. You don't want to know because it would upset your cosy wee world where immigrants take food from the mouths of babes.



how do the migrants who have social housing in london get that housing?


----------



## tbaldwin (Jun 21, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> You refuse to listen and why? Because you want to think that immigrants are pushing their way to the top of housing lists. You swallow the lies and the myths because you lack the capability of looking at the facts. You don't want to know because it would upset your cosy wee world where immigrants take food from the mouths of babes.



Nino give us some facts then so we dont have to swallow myths.
How about what % of flats let in the inner london boroughs in the last couple of years went to people who have lived in the UK for less than 5 years?


----------



## nino_savatte (Jun 22, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> how do the migrants who have social housing in london get that housing?



I've already told you this. Do you have memory problems?


----------



## nino_savatte (Jun 22, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> please show me where you answered this as for the life of me i can not see it .. you have repeated over and over that migrants do not jump queues etc when no one is arguing this! talk about evasion!
> 
> your refusal to deal with these two scenairos speaks volumes .. i might even say it shows that you know the answer but your are too ? to admit it ..
> 
> ...



Your memory is getting worse, durutti. Either that, or you're being deliberately and wilfully ignorant. 

Pereception of something is not the same as the reality. But then, you believe the myth that "migrants" are given priority over others in social housing. There is nothing I can say that will change that because you've already made up your mind. Tell you what, why don't you just call me a "liar" and get it over with? I know how the housing allocation sytem works and I've told you. You just don't want to believe it. Do you work in housing? Do you know anyone who works in housing?


----------



## nino_savatte (Jun 22, 2007)

tbaldwin said:
			
		

> Nino give us some facts then so we dont have to swallow myths.
> How about what % of flats let in the inner london boroughs in the last couple of years went to people who have lived in the UK for less than 5 years?



You're the myth peddler, baldwin. You continue to assume that immigrants are taking things away from you.


----------



## tbaldwin (Jun 22, 2007)

tbaldwin said:
			
		

> Nino give us some facts then so we dont have to swallow myths.
> How about what % of flats let in the inner london boroughs in the last couple of years went to people who have lived in the UK for less than 5 years?



nothing yet eh nino?


----------



## nino_savatte (Jun 22, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> trouble is nino .. you're the housing officer not tb or me ..



The trouble with you is that you refuse to accept what I have said because, in your mind, immigrants are going to the top of the housing queue. Oddly enough, you have no proof of this; which supports what I have said about the allocation system all along.


----------



## nino_savatte (Jun 22, 2007)

tbaldwin said:
			
		

> Bit busy at work....Planning to throw asylum seekers into the Thames with Blunkettt and Straw....Do you not know the stats nino?



I'd like to see the stats that support you contentions...if you would be so kind. No? Then stfu.


----------



## CUMBRIANDRAGON (Jun 22, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> You came out with the preposterous notion that the BNP could be 'tackled' by "ending immigration". It seems to me that it is you who has some explaining to do.



You only tackle the bnp by uniting the community.


http://selfprotection.lightbb.com/S...Martial-Arts-f1/New-group-Ulverston-t3851.htm


----------



## nino_savatte (Jun 22, 2007)

CUMBRIANDRAGON said:
			
		

> You only tackle the bnp by uniting the community.
> 
> 
> http://selfprotection.lightbb.com/S...Martial-Arts-f1/New-group-Ulverston-t3851.htm



As long as the community isn't united around the anti-immigration banner, it's cool.


----------



## durruti02 (Jun 22, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> I've already told you this. Do you have memory problems?



clearly .. indulge me .. please!


----------



## durruti02 (Jun 22, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> Your memory is getting worse, durutti. Either that, or you're being deliberately and wilfully ignorant.
> 
> Pereception of something is not the same as the reality. But then, you believe the myth that "migrants" are given priority over others in social housing. There is nothing I can say that will change that because you've already made up your mind. Tell you what, why don't you just call me a "liar" and get it over with? I know how the housing allocation sytem works and I've told you. You just don't want to believe it. Do you work in housing? Do you know anyone who works in housing?




so explain and answer the scenarios .. it is really simple .. 

yes these are myths ( myth meaning some truth and lots of flannel ) .. and myths used by the BNP .. 

this is a anti BNP thread ..

so help us .. explain how people could suggest these myths  and why they are wrong 

cheers


----------



## nino_savatte (Jun 22, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> clearly .. indulge me .. please!



Go see a doctor. Maybe you are suffering from early Alzheimers or something. Best to get it checked out, eh?


----------



## nino_savatte (Jun 22, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> so explain and answer the scenarios .. it is really simple ..
> 
> yes these are myths ( myth meaning some truth and lots of flannel ) .. and myths used by the BNP ..
> 
> ...



Your last statement typifies your inability to read anything other than in a selective fashion.

Why don't you just call me a "liar" or don't you have the guts?


----------



## durruti02 (Jun 22, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> The trouble with you is that you refuse to accept what I have said because, in your mind, immigrants are going to the top of the housing queue. Oddly enough, you have no proof of this; which supports what I have said about the allocation system all along.



nino ..  DO migrants ever get housed .. or do they not?? or are you suggesting migrants ( both under and over 5 years residency) NEVER ever get social housing? 

so we are asking you to either claify this and  if migrants do get social housing to explain how and why .. 

tbh MC has answered some questions ..  about refugees and NASS. He pointed out it is unlikely that familys will get one bed room flats and i suggestted that maybe NASS uses these a lot. 

I also pointed out that MANY occassions when  'locals' see 'migrants' in social housing estate they are probably in RTB flats paying through the nose ..


----------



## durruti02 (Jun 22, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> Go see a doctor. Maybe you are suffering from early Alzheimers or something. Best to get it checked out, eh?



what a pathetic thing to say .. p.s one of my best friends mums has alzheimers .. it fking nasty disease 

.. you are really sad


----------



## durruti02 (Jun 22, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> Go see a doctor. Maybe you are suffering from early Alzheimers or something. Best to get it checked out, eh?



post reported with comment 'pathetic'


----------



## nino_savatte (Jun 22, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> what a pathetic thing to say .. p.s one of my best friends mums has alzheimers .. it fking nasty disease
> 
> .. you are really sad



That's right, personalise this...it's all you have.


----------



## nino_savatte (Jun 22, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> post reported with comment 'pathetic'



Reported? For what? You clearly have a memory problem and want me to do your work for you. You've got to be having a laugh.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jun 25, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> 1) yes of course it is hypothetical!!!!!!!! every housing situation is unique .. but the two scenarios i put are in general circulation and to simply refuse to answer as nino does is nonsense ... and these are what the bnp etc come out with .. to ignore them is not nor does work ..
> 
> 2) i agree .. but you can not as experiance shows shout about the general if yoiu are not open and honest about the specific .. it just does not wash
> 
> ...



Specifically you cannot compare individual cases, they get put on waiting lists and accumulate points according to need. If there is a general myth which has built up about housing allocation and its unfair nature perhaps this has been substituted for working class knowledge that it was the rich and powerful who controlled the money and power (and hence access to housing). And I am dealing with housing honestly here btw, and whatever 'cases' there are. Yes people are being fucked over but this is class struggle, it is how 'they' want housing and the system to work. I do not see why we should bend to 'fairness' 'sob stories' ('oh but its not fair')which all too often are being pushed in a racist manner (and I am talking about conversations I have had with 'common people'). A radical position in housing is not 'locals' first, that is a reactionary one. 

We live in a globalised world now and distinctions between 'locals' and 'outsiders' have completely broken down, there are no locals nor outsiders anymore... And I say this as I am living in a region with a concrete identity. I suggest that the anarchist postion is the best, still. If you are in need go and take an empty. Short of revolution this is the best alternative for those in real need. For those whose concern is only about the quality of their over crowded housing, then economics and politics enters the debate straight away. For those who want 'other people to do things for them', in other words who are looking for a 'realistic' policy so that they can get housing, then old leftism is the answer - 'tax and build'. 

As Gordon Brown is now promising to look after first time buyers I think the next years will see more of this sort of policy, &/or subsidised private buying. Government will continue as it is, and having just looked into my crystal ball I think Brown will be with us for a considerable time yet unfortunately. If I was to put a date on it (and this could be wrong) I would say _2013-2014_, if he gets lucky *2017-2018*.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jun 25, 2007)

I am currently looking for Bristolian election results, and here they are doing well in 2003, beating the BNP by 2 to 1;

http://www.bristol.gov.uk/item/elections.html?XSL=main&ShowElectionPercentage=true&ElectionId=57

Beating UKIP by 2 to 1 in 2004;

http://www.bristol.gov.uk/item/elections.html?XSL=main&ShowElectionWard=true&ElectionId=58&WardId=10


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## Geoff kerr-morg (Jun 25, 2007)

Sunday, 17 June 2007 
BNP brothers in school web row 

Two BNP-supporting brothers have fallen foul of education chiefs after accessing right-wing websites while teaching in schools. 

Adam Walker, 38, quit his job as a technology teacher after being suspended and told he faced disciplinary action. 

He used a computer at Houghton Kepier, a foundation school in Houghton-le- Spring, Tyne and Wear, during working hours to view politically extreme sites. 

His brother Mark, 36, a former RAF weapons technician, was suspended from Sunnydale Comprehensive, in Shildon, County Durham, pending an internal probe. 

Mark, also a technology teacher, was found to have accessed the BNP's website during school hours. 

The pair stood as BNP candidates in Tony Blair's nearby Sedgefield constituency last month. 

Married Mark, who served in the first Gulf War, admitted he had viewed the website. 

He said: "I looked at the BNP site but I've no idea why that should be an offence. Teachers often look at sites when they are at school. I am being persecuted because of what I believe in. 

"This wouldn't be an issue if I was standing for Labour or the Tories. 

"I love teaching kids and I'm a very good teacher. I've worked at the school almost eight years and the governors know I'm dedicated and a very hard worker. 

"I've taken the children away on trips and my political beliefs are no way in conflict with my professional role. I don't preach politics at work. 

"I was stunned when I was hauled in before the head teacher. 

"She said she'd seen someone with my name standing for the BNP and asked if it was me. When I said it was, they went through my computer records. 

"My suspension is an infringement of my human rights and on my right to freedom of speech. I shouldn't be persecuted for having a certain political view. 

"However, I am prepared to sacrifice my career for what I believe in. I would stand up to machine gun fire to stand for the BNP. I believe in the party." 

Mark, from Spennymoor, County Durham, who claims he and his brother are close friends of BNP leader Nick Griffin, was hauled before school bosses a week ago. 

Meanwhile Adam, a former soldier and karate expert, left his job in February after admitting accessing three right- wing sites and a discussion forum about the BNP. 

Adam, also from Spennymoor, claimed: "I got a letter from the school which said I was unfit to teach because of my political views. 

"I admit I did look at a number of sites which could be seen to be right-wing during school time. Maybe I shouldn't have done that. 

"I also spent a lot of time on computers while teaching kids but it was only when they were working on their own computers and I was free to do my own stuff. 

"I spoke to advisers who said the school had a right to get rid of me so I left without a fight. 

"I jumped before I was pushed." 

Sunderland City Council refused to comment on Adam Walker's resignation. 

A spokesman for the council said: "It's inappropriate to comment on internal matters at Houghton Kepier School." 

Sue Byrne, head teacher at Sunnydale, said: "I can confirm that a member of staff has been suspended, without prejudice, by the school governing body pending inquiries into allegations of misuse of school equipment." 

http://icnewcastle.icnetwork.co.uk 


NB. 

It is our understanding that Adam Walker was actually SACKED from his post,not as stated in the story


----------



## Geoff kerr-morg (Jun 25, 2007)

Union backing for BNP-row teacher Jun 24 2007 




By Caroline Smith, The Sunday Sun 




A teacher suspended for accessing right-wing political material on the internet during school time has become the victim of a "kangaroo court", his union has claimed. 

Mark Walker may now take legal action against education chiefs after his headteacher allowed a separate teaching union - Unison - to hold an anti-fascist meeting on its premises last Monday. 

The union sent letters to members of staff urging them to attend in opposition to "fascist infiltration" of schools. 

Though not naming Mr Walker - a BNP council candidate - he is indirectly referred to as a "teacher currently suspended" and the letter states that teaching unions support "action being taken" against him. 

We revealed last week how Mr Walker, 36, was suspended from Sunnydale School in Shildon, County Durham, in February after checks showed he had used school computers to look at right-wing websites during teaching time. 

No other disciplinary action has been taken and he still hopes to be reinstated to his job. 

Meanwhile, his brother Adam, 38, has quit his teaching job at Houghton Kepier foundation school in Houghton-le-Spring, Tyne and Wear, after he was also found to have accessed right-wing websites on the school's computer. 

Last week Mark's union - Solidarity - which has close links with the BNP, slammed the decision to allow the meeting to take place before the internal investigation. 

General Secretary Peter Harrington - who revealed that Mr Walker may consider legal action over the anti-fascist meetings - said: "It is ludicrous that a meeting against fascism was held at a school where a teacher has been suspended - we believe - for being a member of the BNP. 

"It is like a kangaroo court, and the decision of the school is outrageous, as is the stand taken by the unions. 

"Whatever one's personal view of the BNP, it is a legal political organisation which has been sanctioned by the state. Under the Human Rights Act he is allowed freedom of political expression. 

"It is no coincidence that computers he had used - and not those of other teachers - were checked by the school authorities." 

The National Union of Teachers - which had backed Mr Walker - is understood to have withdrawn its support. 

Neither the school's headteacher nor Durham County Council were prepared to comment. Our calls to Unison were not returned.


----------



## Geoff kerr-morg (Jun 25, 2007)

This is how cack handedly these guys started a thread discussin in school time on Teesside online
http://www.teessideonline.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2664&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
After a little discussion Barte Nephew pops up in the debate saying he has just come across the BNP and they seem a decent lot.
Tap Barte Nephew into your search engine and he has said this same line on other web discussions.
Barte Nephew is an anagram of we are the BNP.
Check this out on teaching langauges
http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?p=7638441#post7638441


----------



## JimPage (Jun 26, 2007)

On matters BNP, they are standing in a number of council by-elections over next few weeks (Oldham,Swansea, Sandwell, Rotherham, Gateshead, Nuneaton and Pendle)

As usual, none of these have a left opposition candidate of any description...


----------



## brasicritique (Jun 26, 2007)

Its a sign of the times


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## durruti02 (Jun 26, 2007)

so apology for your ignorent comment nino???

and still no clarification of housing law from you .. who claims to be a ex housing officer! 

no wonder the BNP make hay when so called leftists won't answer questions like this .. 

it is this lack of honesty of many leftists today that has been part of the collapse of the left in the w/c


----------



## nino_savatte (Jun 26, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> so apology for your ignorent comment nino???
> 
> and still no clarification of housing law from you .. who claims to be a ex housing officer!
> 
> ...



You regurgitated a myth put about by the BNP and others and you want me to comment on it? Catch yourself on.

Oh and I have nothing to "apologise" for. Grow up ffs.

How many housing officers do you know personally? None, I'll wager. Your problem is that you cannot accept the truth when it is told to you. You would rather labour under the illusion that "migrants" (as you put it) go to the top of the housing list. The simple truth is this: you want to be 100% right on this issue and when someone like me, who has worked in housing comes along and shatters your cosy wee view of things, you hate it.

Stop your whining and accept that what I have told you is the truth. If you don't believe me, how about you toddle off to your local housing office and ask them...or maybe you'll accuse them of lying to you as well.


----------



## nino_savatte (Jun 26, 2007)

What I would like to know is why you think that this is a question. It's a statement and, while you give with one hand, you take with the other.



> From what you have said though i see nothing that contradicts the assertion that a young local couple with secure (if cramped) accomodation at their mums and dads will NOT get housed and will see immigrants ( from wherever) get housed IF they are in 'greater need' e.g. childen .. in fact you actually back up this assertion in your second paragraph ..



Here, you appear to be suggesting that immigrants are moved up the housing list because they are immigrants. It's a falsehood and a fiction and if all you have is this as a means of 'dismantling' my argument, then it's a pretty poor show.

Which part of the following statement did you not understand?

*All applicants are treated fairly and those with severe disabilities or medical conditions are given priority. It's called a "points system" and all RSLs use the system.*

How dare you regurgitate BNP myth and dress it up as reality. You're well out of order.

Perhaps you will take issue with this
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/HomeAnd...CareHomes/ApplyingForACouncilHome/DG_10029763

And repeat the mythological scenario. 

Here's another for your perusal, it's from direct.gov.
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/HomeAnd...CareHomes/ApplyingForACouncilHome/DG_10021153


----------



## disownedspirit (Jun 26, 2007)

Geoff kerr-morg said:
			
		

> Last week Mark's union - Solidarity - which has close links with the BNP, slammed the decision to allow the meeting to take place before the internal investigation.
> 
> General Secretary Peter Harrington - who revealed that Mr Walker may consider legal action over the anti-fascist meetings - said: "It is ludicrous that a meeting against fascism was held at a school where a teacher has been suspended - we believe - for being a member of the BNP.



any relation to patrick harrington?


----------



## audiotech (Jun 26, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> it is this lack of honesty of many leftists today that has been part of the collapse of the left in the w/c



You've already aknowledged my post on the subject, so what are you on about now?


----------



## JimPage (Jun 27, 2007)

disownedspirit said:
			
		

> any relation to patrick harrington?



probably him, although solidarity claim to have suspended harrington in an arguement, unsurprisingly, about money....


----------



## treelover (Jun 27, 2007)

On the Wright Stuff today, a London caller, an australian migrant said her dad was offered a choice of several different council properties, before he chose one next to a pub, Wright was quite shocked by this. So is it the case that migrants do get housing, if so, why do people on here and the liberal left deny this is the case?,Are they being disengenuous and basically lying though their teeth to defend a wider position and not concede anything to the far right, (actually not an unusual occassion) if they are wrong, they should say so, denying reality can be very dangerous and open up spaces for the far right....

for me, I don't know whether they do or don't but i am hearing anecdotal evidence of migrants, refugees, etc, getting rehoused ahead of others..


----------



## The Black Hand (Jun 27, 2007)

treelover said:
			
		

> On the right stuff today, a London caller, an australian migrant said her dad was offered a choice of several different council properties, before he chose one next to a pub, Wright was quite shocked by this. So is it the case that migrants do get housing, if so, why do people on here and the liberal left deny this is the case?,Are they being disengenuous and basically lying though their teeth to defend a wider position and not concede anything to the far right, (actually not an unusual occassion) if they are wrong, they should say so, denying reality can be very dangerous and open up spaces for the far right....
> 
> for me, I don't know whether they do or don't but i am hearing anecdotal evidence of migrants, refugees, etc, getting rehoused ahead of others..



Its called 'waiting your turn'


----------



## nino_savatte (Jun 27, 2007)

treelover said:
			
		

> On the Wright Stuff today, a London caller, an australian migrant said her dad was offered a choice of several different council properties, before he chose one next to a pub, Wright was quite shocked by this. So is it the case that migrants do get housing, if so, why do people on here and the liberal left deny this is the case?,Are they being disengenuous and basically lying though their teeth to defend a wider position and not concede anything to the far right, (actually not an unusual occassion) if they are wrong, they should say so, denying reality can be very dangerous and open up spaces for the far right....
> 
> for me, I don't know whether they do or don't but i am hearing anecdotal evidence of migrants, refugees, etc, getting rehoused ahead of others..



It sounds like you're more prepared to accept hearsay and gossip as fact than anything else.


----------



## nino_savatte (Jun 28, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> Its called 'waiting your turn'



Exactly. Besides, migrant workers - that is to say, people who are here for a short period of time - are not entitled to social housing. Other immigrants wait their turn on the housing list. 

But here treelover also uses the word "migrant" as some sort of pejorative. Since when did _The Wright Stuff _serve as some sort of font of truth? I'm only surprised treelover didn't cite Vanessa Feltz or Jon Gaunt...or some silly sausage from TalkSport. Of course he could have also claimed that he had read it in The _Daily Sport_.


----------



## durruti02 (Jun 28, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> You regurgitated a myth put about by the BNP and others and you want me to comment on it? Catch yourself on.
> 
> Oh and I have nothing to "apologise" for. Grow up ffs.
> 
> ...



i do not know any housing officers .. (should i??) ... that is why i ask you 

and you continue to still slip and slide and deflect and ignore  

you carry on ( and on and on) using the straw man that i am suggesting migrants queue jump .. [ to qoute .. "the illusion that "migrants" (as you put it) go to the top of the housing list.." ] 

i am not and never have .. not once .. ever and ever .. suggested that migrants, as migrants, get any preferential treatment ever 

get it?????

you then finally  show us some refereneces  .. which state EXACTLY what i know and understand and have been saying on here all along

that priority is given to homeless and the most needy

yes do you agree??

ok now ..  so the assertion / the myth if you will have it is that this policy ( which differs form previous ones that gave more weight to local connections) implicitly favour migrants families 

THIS is what is under discussion and what i ask you to comment on 

so is it true?? 

you also ignored my question so .." how do the migrants who have social housing in london get that housing?"


----------



## durruti02 (Jun 28, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> Specifically you cannot compare individual cases, they get put on waiting lists and accumulate points according to need. If there is a general myth which has built up about housing allocation and its unfair nature perhaps this has been substituted for working class knowledge that it was the rich and powerful who controlled the money and power (and hence access to housing). And I am dealing with housing honestly here btw, and whatever 'cases' there are. Yes people are being fucked over but this is class struggle, it is how 'they' want housing and the system to work. I do not see why we should bend to 'fairness' 'sob stories' ('oh but its not fair')which all too often are being pushed in a racist manner (and I am talking about conversations I have had with 'common people'). A radical position in housing is not 'locals' first, that is a reactionary one.
> 
> We live in a globalised world now and distinctions between 'locals' and 'outsiders' have completely broken down, there are no locals nor outsiders anymore... And I say this as I am living in a region with a concrete identity. I suggest that the anarchist postion is the best, still. If you are in need go and take an empty. Short of revolution this is the best alternative for those in real need. For those whose concern is only about the quality of their over crowded housing, then economics and politics enters the debate straight away. For those who want 'other people to do things for them', in other words who are looking for a 'realistic' policy so that they can get housing, then old leftism is the answer - 'tax and build'.



attica .. you seem to have no understanding of community / power / or politics and how they are created and destroyed  .. 'go and take an empty' .. you are 20 years out of date re london and the south east


----------



## The Black Hand (Jun 28, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> attica .. you seem to have no understanding of community / power / or politics and how they are created and destroyed  .. 'go and take an empty' .. you are 20 years out of date re london and the south east



Eh? I am all for people building communities, but not quaint niave and idealised ones. Are you telling me there are not thousands of empties in London? It could seem that it is you who needs to be a bit more honest about possibilities. 

Here, we get beyond those who have no real need and are happy to talk about it, towards those with _real _need, whose actions rest in that place between necessity and desire, and who do not care where they get their housing from, or where it is, as long as they get housing.


----------



## durruti02 (Jun 28, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> Eh? I am all for people building communities, but not quaint niave and idealised ones. Are you telling me there are not thousands of empties in London? It could seem that it is you who needs to be a bit more honest about possibilities.
> 
> Here, we get beyond those who have no real need and are happy to talk about it, towards those with _real _need, whose actions rest in that place between necessity and desire, and who do not care where they get their housing from, or where it is, as long as they get housing.



where the fuck does 'quaint and idealised ones' come from?????? i am saying we defend what we have got and build on that .. you come out with, sorry, theoretical nonsense about globalised communities .. we have had that for a 100 years

and no there are NOT thousends of empties in london .. and there were not when you were here ..

your second sentance makes no sense ..


----------



## The Black Hand (Jun 28, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> where the fuck does 'quaint and idealised ones' come from?????? i am saying we defend what we have got and build on that .. you come out with, sorry, theoretical nonsense about globalised communities .. we have had that for a 100 years
> 
> and no there are NOT thousends of empties in london .. and there were not when you were here ..
> 
> your second sentance makes no sense ..



Sorry but there are 1000s of empties in London, and you come out with ahistorical nonsense about globalisation which shows no understanding at all of the current period. Romantisising what 'we have got' is going to get us nowhere is what I was saying...


----------



## durruti02 (Jun 28, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> Sorry but there are 1000s of empties in London, and you come out with a historical nonsense about globalisation which shows no understanding at all of the current period. Romantisising what 'we have got' is going to get us nowhere is what I was saying...



there you go again ...  'romanticising' ... wtf!  sorry that is rubbish .. and exposes to me again you do not understand the importance of community and of fighting to rebuild community .. 

there are not thousends of empties in london .. and turn over when social housing is temporaly empty is much much lower than it used to be .. 

the current period?? .. differs in terms of community from when marx and engels talk of manchester and new york?? there was more movement then than now ..


----------



## The Black Hand (Jun 28, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> there you go again ...  'romanticising' ... wtf!  sorry that is rubbish .. and exposes to me again you do not understand the importance of community and of fighting to rebuild community ..
> 
> there are not thousends of empties in london .. and turn over when social housing is temporaly empty is much much lower than it used to be ..
> 
> the current period?? .. differs in terms of community from when marx and engels talk of manchester and new york?? there was more movement then than now ..



1. We live in different times now and the possibilities are therefore different (between now and 100/50 yrs ago). As for that community comment of yours I disagree (but then I would). But I do not think we are best served with building simplistic/reductionist communities (there I go again)   Anyway, come out with a different critique pls. My point is that todays communities are not the simplistic one dimensional ones that orthodox leftists (eg IWCA) /people say they want to encourage. Those days are gone forever, when the 'community' worked at one workplace.... Instead, there are many communities/networks, overlaying each other. Place has lost its importance  

2. There are thousands of empties in London. (and the last punctuation was FULL STOP) They maybe more efficient at disposing of them, but I was including all buildings, offices,factories, private housing stock. Anything.

3. 'The current period' differs in many many more ways than you have stated...


----------



## durruti02 (Jun 28, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> 1. We live in different times now and the possibilities are therefore different (between now and 100/50 yrs ago). As for that community comment of yours I disagree (but then I would). But I do not think we are best served with building simplistic/reductionist communities (there I go again)   Anyway, come out with a different critique pls. My point is that todays communities are not the simplistic one dimensional ones that orthodox leftists (eg IWCA) /people say they want to encourage. Those days are gone forever, when the 'community' worked at one workplace.... Instead, there are many communities/networks, overlaying each other. Place has lost its importance
> 
> 2. There are thousands of empties in London. (and the last punctuation was FULL STOP) They maybe more efficient at disposing of them, but I was including all buildings, offices,factories, private housing stock. Anything.
> 
> 3. 'The current period' differs in many many more ways than you have stated...



1) and again    simplistic / reductionist / one dimensional / quaint / romanticsed /  nieve and idealised .. excuse me but talk about straw men and putting words into peoples mouths .. all of what you suggest is simply wrong ..  you think i do not understand that communities are multi layered???

but your assertion that this is a new historical fact is not correct .. and that place has lost its importnace with the implication we should do react to that is nonsense .. you'll be onto the end of history soon at this rate .. 

2) oh right!  so a couple in barking should go and squat a old factory unit in barkingside   .. or a low occupancy office in the west end .. it is impractical does nowt for community and you as ever ignore the importance of struggles that have collective solutions instead of individulistic ones as is squatting 

3) i do not disagree that times change .. the importance of the collective does not


----------



## The Black Hand (Jun 28, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> 1a) and again    simplistic / reductionist / one dimensional / quaint / romanticsed /  nieve and idealised .. excuse me but talk about straw men and putting words into peoples mouths .. all of what you suggest is simply wrong ..  you think i do not understand that communities are multi layered???
> 
> 1b)but your assertion that this is a new historical fact is not correct .. and that place has lost its importnace with the implication we should do react to that is nonsense .. you'll be onto the end of history soon at this rate ..
> 
> ...




1a) perhaps there should be a discussion on communities then, cos I've got that feeling from others... 

1b) I do not understand your para.

2)I disagree that squatting is always individualistic, they can be small communities in themselves (one large squat). Also Colin Ward showed that squatting can have a class base, and of course this would be what I would be promoting... Class struggle for housing is a collective solution, continuously, and that is what squatting can be.  I do not see your 'collective solution' which you claim exists, and so I will call it utopian

3) Does the pope shit in the woods?


----------



## nino_savatte (Jun 29, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> i do not know any housing officers .. (should i??) ... that is why i ask you
> 
> and you continue to still slip and slide and deflect and ignore
> 
> ...



Durutti, you have made your mind up that I'm lying and that "migrants" are automatically entitled to social housing. There is nothing I can do to change your mind. Therefore I will let you wallow in your ignorance.

This is a classic


> i am not and never have .. not once .. ever and ever .. suggested that migrants, as migrants, get any preferential treatment ever



You're a liar.

I answered this and you could not be bothered to pay attention


> you also ignored my question so .." how do the migrants who have social housing in london get that housing?



Go back and read the relevant post, dimwit.


----------



## durruti02 (Jun 29, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> Durutti, you have made your mind up that I'm lying and that "migrants" are automatically entitled to social housing.
> 
> *FFS  .. never once have i said that " .. "migrants" are automatically entitled to social housing..." it shows how weak is your position that you resort continually to lies .. show me anywhere where i have said or even suggested this .. indeed i have consistently stated that it is NEEDS  that gives PRIORITY  .. and that this MAY favour migrants .. *
> 
> ...




.....


----------



## JimPage (Jun 29, 2007)

BNP Results yesterday 
27.3% in Nuneaton
21.6% in Sandwell
21.3% in Barnoldswick
16.4% in Pendle

First time votes in the 3 wards other than Sandwell- vote up a modest 1.5% there.


----------



## audiotech (Jun 29, 2007)

By-election results for June 28th 2007 

Craven ward by-election, Pendle BC


Lib Dem 632
Con 260
Ind 241
BNP 237 (16.4%)
Lab 76


Previous BNP electoral history in this ward:
2004: 447 votes (21.9%)
2006: 459 votes (25.0%)

Slough ward(Nuneaton & Bedworth)

Turnout 40.57%
Labour Gain from Tories

Labour 862
BNP Alwyn Deacon 582 (27.3%)
Tories 499
Eng Dems 102
Lib Dems 83

Charlemont/Grove Vale by-election(Sandwell) 

Con 870
Lab 801
BNP 544 (21.6%)
Lib/Dem 238
Greens 71

Whaddon Ward (Milton Keynes) by-election result from last night was

LAB 1108 - 43.8%
CON 914 - 36.1%
EFP 221 - 8.7% England First Party
LIB 129 - 5.1%
UKIP 109 - 4.3%
IND 49 - 1.9%


----------



## nino_savatte (Jul 1, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> .....



You're slipping and sliding around, durutti. How about coming clean? How about being a wee bit more honest for a change? You presented a 'scenario' and then asked me to comment. What you were trying to say in that 'scenario', was that, despite what I have said regarding the points system, 'migrants' are being advanced up the housing list: your posts indicate this and the tone of your query indicates this.



> nonsense .. i am asking you to share your experiance .. you will not and instead continually lie



No, you aren't. You're trying to trip me up in the hope that you will be vindicated. You're a shabby trickster.

Here you contradict what you've said in the first part of your post



> sorry i see you blathering about immigrants just joining the queue .. was that your answer!! .. pretty poor answer then as you rightly point out later that there is no strict queue .. allocation is based on needs/priority NOT length on a queue .. you and i know it is the same as a n e .. your sprai ned ankel won't count for a thing if theres a bomb/pile up or injuries of more needs/priority



Where did I say that there was "no strict queue" and what the fuck does that phrase mean? You either won't or you refuse to pay attention to what I've said and you've made up the replies in your wee head.

Wtf does a "sprained ankle" have to do with anything? You're off your heid, pal.


----------



## durruti02 (Jul 2, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> You're slipping and sliding around, durutti. How about coming clean? How about being a wee bit more honest for a change? You presented a 'scenario' and then asked me to comment. What you were trying to say in that 'scenario', was that, despite what I have said regarding the points system, 'migrants' are being advanced up the housing list: your posts indicate this and the tone of your query indicates this.
> 
> 
> *again you lie .. i have, to repeat again, NEVER EVER EVER said migrants are being ' advanced' .. do you really have so much of a problem reading?? it is quite clear what i am saying to anyone but you and i'll repeat what i said  couple of days ago " .. i have consistently stated that it is NEEDS that gives PRIORITY .. and that this MAY favour migrants .."
> ...



what i would have thought you would have done with this housing thing is actually deal with the scenarios i have put up .. MC5 made a good contribution that showed that small flats wil not get given to families , attica agreed with the idea that it is needs based but you conistently refuse to share your knowledge of the system .. why?? 

it does not look good for you ..

p.s this was one of the scenarios 

a " young local couple with secure (if cramped) accomodation at their mums and dads will NOT get housed and will see immigrants ( from wherever) get housed IF they are in 'greater need' e.g. childen " 

the other was about a family with cramped accomodation will not get housed before a homelss family in greater need 

tbh i think the answer to these is fairly obvious as attica has a stated .. he question then is by how much does this favour migrant families? 

you also still did not honestly answer the question ' how do migrants get housed?' 

you said they go on the queue lke everyone else but this is untenable answer as the queue is soo big/long no migrant would ever get housed then would they?


----------



## durruti02 (Jul 2, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> 1a) perhaps there should be a discussion on communities then, cos I've got that feeling from others...
> 
> 1b) I do not understand your para.
> 
> 2)I disagree that squatting is always individualistic, they can be small communities in themselves (one large squat). Also Colin Ward showed that squatting can have a class base, and of course this would be what I would be promoting... Class struggle for housing is a collective solution, continuously, and that is what squatting can be.  I do not see your 'collective solution' which you claim exists, and so I will call it utopian



1a) while i do not dispute that that would be a good thread i am disappointed that you can not make an apology for putting half a dozen words in my mouth  .. i do not assume what you believe .. i would appreciate it if you did likewise..

1b) you appear to be asserting that we are in a differrent historical times re migration .. i was commenting that tbh 100 years ago was little differrent .. you also stated catagorically that place has lost its importnace with argument or reason .. this maybe what the bosses want us to think .. it can not be what a progressive thinks

2) rarely is squating collective .. this is not the 194ts .. as ward comments on .. and you think tenants fghting for some sort of control of where they live is 'utopian'???? i am shocked


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 2, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> 1a) while i do not dispute that that would be a good thread i am disappointed that you can not make an apology for putting half a dozen words in my mouth  .. i do not assume what you believe .. i would appreciate it if you did likewise..
> 
> 1b) you appear to be asserting that we are in a differrent historical times re migration .. i was commenting that tbh 100 years ago was little differrent .. you also stated catagorically that place has lost its importnace with argument or reason .. this maybe what the bosses want us to think .. it can not be what a progressive thinks
> 
> 2) rarely is squating collective .. this is not the 194ts .. as ward comments on .. and you think tenants fghting for some sort of control of where they live is 'utopian'???? i am shocked



I am not always arguing directly against you, others are brought in cos others are reading and there is some baggage (i agree a conference format is better for discussion than the web).

I am though arguing against reductionism of any sort, and that includes people like the IWCA who bang on about localism in the age of globalisation - the defining character of the epoch they have got completely wrong.  15 years of banging on about it has got them precisely nowhere, their class struggles have been meaningless and non effective. For a thinking Marxist (soc or @) this should be enough time to realise that their theory is at best utopian and they need to rethink - but as they are old left I do not expect that anything will change...

We are in way different times to 100 years ago in terms of economics and migration in the UK. I do not think place has lost its importance, as I live in a place with a large class pedigree 'Northernism' is part of class consciousness and part of life. BUT, I am emphasising that there are no outsiders in the working class, that IWCA primitive localism is a formulation that cannot work in this epoch (it is not enough by a long way, and that is if you accept 'Town Hall Leninism'  is the way to go - which many do not).

I think squatting communties have and can again be collective, some of it isn't, true, but that doesn't mean it won't be again - especially if things get a little more desperate on the housing front in the uk. So 'tenants fighting for some form of control' in relation to their council or housing assoc landlord is your position is it. Well, it can be utopian though not necessarily. I think more control is a better thing but it is only one struggle for those already in housing. The class struggle for housing, even locally, can be bigger than that. I think your class struggles should continue...


----------



## nino_savatte (Jul 3, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> what i would have thought you would have done with this housing thing is actually deal with the scenarios i have put up .. MC5 made a good contribution that showed that small flats wil not get given to families , attica agreed with the idea that it is needs based but you conistently refuse to share your knowledge of the system .. why??
> 
> it does not look good for you ..
> 
> ...





> it does not look good for you ..



Au contraire, it doesn't look good for you.

Here you demonstrate your inability to read anything that does not support your already ossified beliefs.


> you conistently refuse to share your knowledge of the system .. why??



I have told you how the system works and you refused to accept it. No doubt it is because I said it and not torres or one of your mates.

If you don't believe me, go to your local town hall...or do you think they are conspiring to hide the facts from you?

You're fucking dim.


----------



## Groucho (Jul 4, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> probably him, although solidarity claim to have suspended harrington in an arguement, unsurprisingly, about money....



'Solidarity', the fascist 'union', has split assunder. The three man executive has split and there are now two opposing 'leaderships' of a 'union' that has almost as many leadership factions as members. The split is over a number of issues including how overtly and obviously affiliated to the BNP it should be, but mostly over the fact that the three unelected (but then there are no members to elect them) leaders hate each other.


----------



## nino_savatte (Jul 5, 2007)

Groucho said:
			
		

> 'Solidarity', the fascist 'union', has split assunder. The three man executive has split and there are now two opposing 'leaderships' of a 'union' that has almost as many leadership factions as members. The split is over a number of issues including how overtly and obviously affiliated to the BNP it should be, but mostly over the fact that the three unelected (but then there are no members to elect them) leaders hate each other.



I'm loving it!


----------



## durruti02 (Jul 5, 2007)

Groucho said:
			
		

> 'Solidarity', the fascist 'union', has split assunder. The three man executive has split and there are now two opposing 'leaderships' of a 'union' that has almost as many leadership factions as members. The split is over a number of issues including how overtly and obviously affiliated to the BNP it should be, but mostly over the fact that the three unelected (but then there are no members to elect them) leaders hate each other.



he he


----------



## durruti02 (Jul 5, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> Au contraire, it doesn't look good for you.
> 
> Here you demonstrate your inability to read anything that does not support your already ossified beliefs.
> 
> ...



you still will not answer the question will you!


p.s what do you make of this?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/07/02/nmigrant102.xml


----------



## becky p (Jul 5, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> you still will not answer the question will you!
> 
> 
> p.s what do you make of this?
> ...



200,000 is not that many really though is it durruti02.But it has had much more effect in some areas than others.


----------



## durruti02 (Jul 5, 2007)

becky p said:
			
		

> 200,000 is not that many really though is it durruti02.But it has had much more effect in some areas than others.



yes the figure was originally said to be 1% but then they said it was 5% .. so no not massive as a total but in the context, partly as you say it is not the same everywhere, yes it is very large number .. 

i did not pick up though whether it refers to refugees or just economic migrants .. so maybe it is not a relevent figure at all!


----------



## nino_savatte (Jul 6, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> you still will not answer the question will you!
> 
> 
> p.s what do you make of this?
> ...



Interestingly enough, there was absolutely no mention of that in the programme. Did you watch it? I didn't think so. How do you think immigrants get social housing? They apply for it like everyone else and they live in temporary accommodation - which a lot of 'native born' applicants refuse. Do you know how long some folk stay in temporary accommodation? Do you understand what is meant by the phrase "temporary accommodation"?

What do you make of that?

ETA: The programme also discussed the lack of of new build social housing: another problem that seems to have been lightly dismissed by you in order to promote your anti-immigrant thesis.


----------



## nino_savatte (Jul 6, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> yes the figure was originally said to be 1% but then they said it was 5% .. so no not massive as a total but in the context, partly as you say it is not the same everywhere, yes it is very large number ..
> 
> i did not pick up though whether it refers to refugees or just economic migrants .. so maybe it is not a relevent figure at all!



Migrant workers are not entitled to social housing. But you keep insisting that they are,* in spite of the what the law says*.


----------



## durruti02 (Jul 6, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> Migrant workers are not entitled to social housing. But you keep insisting that they are,* in spite of the what the law says*.




and so who are these people tevor macdonald refers to?

 no i have not ever said that migrnats who have ben hee a short time are entitled .. but migrant workers after 5 years are entitled to housing arnt they?? 

why do you not just be useful and go thru the facts for us?? with references ..


----------



## durruti02 (Jul 6, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> Interestingly enough, there was absolutely no mention of that in the programme. Did you watch it? I didn't think so. How do you think immigrants get social housing? They apply for it like everyone else and they live in temporary accommodation - which a lot of 'native born' applicants refuse. Do you know how long some folk stay in temporary accommodation? Do you understand what is meant by the phrase "temporary accommodation"?
> 
> What do you make of that?
> 
> ETA: The programme also discussed the lack of of new build social housing: another problem that seems to have been lightly dismissed by you in order to promote your anti-immigrant thesis.



p.s. i never got even that far but yes mnanypof my mates had shitty temp accomodation for years .. and so?? 

and for gods sake!! i'm a delegate a DCH next week and you accuse me o not bing interested in social housing LOL  

but it still does not answer how migrants do get social housing .. 200,000 a year .. is that a millionover 5years?


----------



## audiotech (Jul 6, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> and so who are these people tevor macdonald refers to?
> 
> no i have not ever said that migrnats who have ben hee a short time are entitled .. but migrant workers after 5 years are entitled to housing arnt they??



No, they are entitled to apply for housing, but with more conditions on them than other applicants for housing. There has also been murmerings amongst Labour ministers of taking even this right to apply away, to hide their lack of providing decent homes for all.


----------



## durruti02 (Jul 6, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> No, they are entitled to apply for housing, but with more conditions on them than other applicants for housing. There has also been murmerings amongst Labour ministers of taking even this right to apply away, to hide their lack of providing decent homes for all.



can you help us with who the 200,00 are?


----------



## audiotech (Jul 6, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> can you help us with who the 200,00 are?



Sorry, I only have two bedrooms here.


----------



## nino_savatte (Jul 7, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> and so who are these people tevor macdonald refers to?
> 
> no i have not ever said that migrnats who have ben hee a short time are entitled .. but migrant workers after 5 years are entitled to housing arnt they??
> 
> why do you not just be useful and go thru the facts for us?? with references ..



Trevor McDonald didn't present the report. You continue to tie yourself up in knots in a desperate attempt to prove me wrong. Migrants workers come here for a short while and then go back to their country of origin. It would appear that you still have trouble distinguishing between a "migrant worker", an "immigrant" and a "refugee". Furthermore, you appear to be totally ignorant with regards to the status of migrants from the new EU countries, because you continue to suggest that they can come here and go straight to the top of the housing list and claim benefits. They can do neither of those things.

You can Google this stuff btw. Why the hell should I do your job for you? You'll be demanding that I wipe your arse next.  

Carry on lying and digging yourself ever deeper.


----------



## nino_savatte (Jul 7, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> p.s. i never got even that far but yes mnanypof my mates had shitty temp accomodation for years .. and so??
> 
> and for gods sake!! i'm a delegate a DCH next week and you accuse me o not bing interested in social housing LOL
> 
> but it still does not answer how migrants do get social housing .. 200,000 a year .. is that a millionover 5years?



You continue to lie: migrant workers are not entitled to social housing.

I think you're totally ignorant with regards to social housing: how the system works and how the lack of new build social housing has led to a crisis....that you blame on immigrants. How utterly shabby.


----------



## becky p (Jul 7, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> Migrants workers come here for a short while and then go back to their country of origin.
> 
> Carry on lying and digging yourself ever deeper.


----------



## nino_savatte (Jul 7, 2007)

> becky p
> This message is hidden because becky p is on your ignore list.



Do piss off, dickhead.


----------



## brasicritique (Jul 8, 2007)

ninonothing


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jul 8, 2007)

brasicattack said:
			
		

> ninonothing


Stop spreading whatever issue it is you have with nino across the entire board, ta.


----------



## durruti02 (Jul 8, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> Trevor McDonald didn't present the report. You continue to tie yourself up in knots in a desperate attempt to prove me wrong. Migrants workers come here for a short while and then go back to their country of origin. It would appear that you still have trouble distinguishing between a "migrant worker", an "immigrant" and a "refugee". Furthermore, you appear to be totally ignorant with regards to the status of migrants from the new EU countries, because you continue to suggest that they can come here and go straight to the top of the housing list and claim benefits. They can do neither of those things.
> 
> You can Google this stuff btw. Why the hell should I do your job for you? You'll be demanding that I wipe your arse next.
> 
> Carry on lying and digging yourself ever deeper.



why are you such a liar nino?  

where have  i ever said " .. that they can come here and go straight to the top of the housing list and claim benefits .." ???

just helpo us all and try to clarify some of the isssues scenarios i have given .., even your mate attica said it is obvious migrants ( with status .. after 5 years) often get housed before locals cause they are in more need!

p.s. have you EVER produced any evidence foe anything?? referred to research or the law??? no it is all just YOUR opinion .. with NO back up .. very poor  .. 


*go on prove me wrong .. with references !!*


----------



## nino_savatte (Jul 9, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> why are you such a liar nino?
> 
> where have  i ever said " .. that they can come here and go straight to the top of the housing list and claim benefits .." ???
> 
> ...



You're the liar, durutti and like so many others here, you smear when you can't get your own way.

How many times must I tell you? You simply do not want to listen and that isn't my problem - it's yours.

This is typical



> where have i ever said " .. that they can come here and go straight to the top of the housing list and claim benefits .



You've suggested it (particularly with your BNP-inspired 'scenario'). You have the discursive talents of a slug.


----------



## nino_savatte (Jul 9, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> can you help us with who the 200,00 are?



You claim that you're not against immigrants but here you are spreading more lies than I can shake a stick at.

Interesting how that story and that figure only appears in The Torygraph.


----------



## durruti02 (Jul 9, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> So increases across the board. *No undercutting of wages as such.*



Originally Posted by dash_two
Article dated May 2007 about a report into wages and immigration commissioned by the Low Pay Unit and carried out by University College London:
http://www.ucl.ac.uk/media/library/immigration 

Quote:
The report goes on to say that although the arrival of economic migrants has benefited workers in the middle and upper part of the wage distribution, immigration has placed downward pressure on the wages of workers in receipt of lower levels of pay. Over the period considered, wages at all points of the wage distribution increased in real terms, but wages in the lowest quarter would have increased quicker and wages further up the distribution would have risen more slowly if it were not for the effect of immigration. 



MC5 .. i think you have discounted inflation .. wages where i am (london public sector) have been falling consistently in comparison with inflation for many years now and even more so if you take into account property .. not like where you live i suspect?


----------



## durruti02 (Jul 9, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> You're the liar, durutti and like so many others here, you smear when you can't get your own way.
> 
> How many times must I tell you? You simply do not want to listen and that isn't my problem - it's yours.
> 
> ...



nino i have not SAID nor SUGGESTED what you say at all, have i???

if i have please provide evidence .. 

 .. and another smear , a " .. BNP inspired scenario .." .. no mate ( though no doubt they spread and encourage it) and one if you were bothered to talk and listen to people you would hear day in day out 

this is from me on the 7th june .. 

" ..you are also being ( deliberately?) disingenuous by suggesting that ANYONE is suggesting immigrants get given flats just for being immigrants .. the argument is about what priority needs to be given, what balance needs to be set, between NEED and LOCAL CONNECTION and LENGTH of reside.."

what is your problem with discussing the balence of local connection and need? 

what is your problem with making transparent and absolutely clear he mechanisms by which people, and specifically migrants, get housing?? ( all your posts now are just afaik opinion .. no references ever)

why can you not actually answer, specifically and with reference to the law, the scenarios i give you? 

 e.g. " ..a young local couple with secure (if cramped) accomodation at their mums and dads will NOT get housed and will see immigrants ( from wherever) get housed IF they are in 'greater need' e.g. childen .." 



lets change the style of debate on urban nino and actually deal with what each other says point by point. Are you willing to do that?


----------



## durruti02 (Jul 9, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> You claim that you're not against immigrants but here you are spreading more lies than I can shake a stick at.
> 
> Interesting how that story and that figure only appears in The Torygraph.



so you deny/or say it is not true that 200,000 migrants got housed last year? It was widely reported with no rebuttal from anyone .. but you .. can you back this up?


"But after an investigation by ITV's Tonight With Trevor McDonald programme, the Government has admitted that 200,000 of Britain's social homes - five per cent of the total - were given to immigrants last year. There is a waiting list of 1.5 million for the four million social houses in Britain. Priority for houses is given to those most in need. Immigrant families cannot automatically be put to the top of the queue, but often fall into needy groups by being homeless or living in overcrowded accommodation"

you are saying this is all not true?


----------



## Divisive Cotton (Jul 9, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> 1. We live in different times now and the possibilities are therefore different (between now and 100/50 yrs ago). As for that community comment of yours I disagree (but then I would). But I do not think we are best served with building simplistic/reductionist communities (there I go again)   Anyway, come out with a different critique pls. My point is that todays communities are not the simplistic one dimensional ones that orthodox leftists (eg IWCA) /people say they want to encourage. Those days are gone forever, when the 'community' worked at one workplace.... Instead, there are many communities/networks, overlaying each other. Place has lost its importance
> 
> 2. There are thousands of empties in London. (and the last punctuation was FULL STOP) They maybe more efficient at disposing of them, but I was including all buildings, offices,factories, private housing stock. Anything.
> 
> 3. 'The current period' differs in many many more ways than you have stated...



"Empties in London"? I presume you mean empty properties. Sorry, but there isn't. Although what there is are thousands of empty spaces as property developers have brought up space and left it idle so as to accumulate wealth.

As for "the 'community' worked at one workplace". This is a complete Marxist myth. Outside a few areas, there have never been single workplaces for single communities in London. In 1914 more than 97% of all industrial firms in the capital employed fewer than 100 people. In 1938 the average number of workers in factories in the LCC area was around *20*!.

It is you, sir, that has a one-dimensional view of history, shaped by the fiction of Dickens and Blake as much as by the writings of Marx.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 9, 2007)

Divisive Cotton said:
			
		

> "Empties in London"? I presume you mean empty properties. Sorry, but there isn't. Although what there is are thousands of empty spaces as property developers have brought up space and left it idle so as to accumulate wealth.
> 
> As for "the 'community' worked at one workplace". This is a complete Marxist myth. Outside a few areas, there have never been single workplaces for single communities in London. In 1914 more than 97% of all industrial firms in the capital employed fewer than 100 people. In 1938 the average number of workers in factories in the LCC area was around *20*!.
> 
> It is you, sir, that has a one-dimensional view of history, shaped by the fiction of Dickens and Blake as much as by the writings of Marx.



Outside of a 'few areas' hahahahahahahahhahahahahah
 - you mean outside the northern working class heartlands of Britain (and then not only there)... It is 'many areas' my friend, you are trying to construct an idealised viewpoint too, and at what point in history? Your view completely breaks down cos railways were not mass experience until the industrial revolution was very developed, and so to argue that people worked in different areas is bullshite. Even with the railways, places such as Shildon, County Durham, large amounts of people would have worked on 'the railways' as it was a relatively gigantic employer. Shildon now has part of the National Railway Museum as a result of this heritage.


----------



## durruti02 (Jul 9, 2007)

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs07/hosb0807.pdf

so another area for nino to think about ... in the five years from 2002 to 2006there were 700,000 thousend migrants given citizenship which gives full righst to social housing. 

Can you help us find out how many apply for and get social housing?

and 

http://forefrontmigration.co.uk/overview.php .. 

on the routes to citizenship


----------



## Divisive Cotton (Jul 9, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> Outside of a 'few areas' hahahahahahahahhahahahahah
> - you mean outside the northern working class heartlands of Britain (and then not only there)... It is 'many areas' my friend, you are trying to construct an idealised viewpoint too, and at what point in history? Your view completely breaks down cos railways were not mass experience until the industrial revolution was very developed, and so to argue that people worked in different areas is bullshite. Even with the railways, places such as Shildon, County Durham, large amounts of people would have worked on 'the railways' as it was a relatively gigantic employer. Shildon now has part of the National Railway Museum as a result of this heritage.



I say "there have never been single workplaces for single communities in London" and then you start talking about the north of England and Shildon and County Durham in particular. The history of the British working class is far more complex than your simplistic history. You think that a Dickenson society of thousands of employees per workplace was the norm. It was not.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 9, 2007)

It's madness isn't it? He thinks what he reads about the past is real now. Wait for the NUM Dave Douglass link.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 9, 2007)

Divisive Cotton said:
			
		

> I say "there have never been single workplaces for single communities in London" and then you start talking about the north of England and Shildon and County Durham in particular. The history of the British working class is far more complex than your simplistic history. You think that a Dickenson society of thousands of employees per workplace was the norm. It was not.



Wtf you don't even know anything of the primitive accumulation debate - the transition from feudalism to capitalism etc and you say I have simplistic viewpoint, there's one word that describes your labelling of me and my ideas, and that is BULLSHIT  Go try some class struggle for a change


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 9, 2007)

torres said:
			
		

> It's madness isn't it? He thinks what he reads about the past is real now. Wait for the NUM Dave Douglass link.



WTF - bad penny turns up  The Dave Douglass link is above latecomer, and you are late, to every class struggle there has ever been and will be.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 9, 2007)

You've done it already. Excellent.  I like how you think the NUM runs the working class in this country.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 9, 2007)

torres said:
			
		

> You've done it already. Excellent.  I like how you think the NUM runs the working class in this country.



You are full of wishful thinking my boy. You are easy led too.


----------



## audiotech (Jul 9, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> Originally Posted by dash_two
> Article dated May 2007 about a report into wages and immigration commissioned by the Low Pay Unit and carried out by University College London:
> http://www.ucl.ac.uk/media/library/immigration
> 
> ...



Have you any data for the specific point you raise about London wages in the public sector and inflation over the many years you cite? It's not that I dion't believe you, I'm just interested.

I work in the charitable and voluntary sector and earn just over twelve grand a year (that's before tax), so there's no way I can afford to buy a house.

I did argue that immigration did have an affect on reducing wage growth for some in a post directed at you some time ago, when you stated, without any evidence, that immigration leads to a lowering of wages.


----------



## audiotech (Jul 9, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> so you deny/or say it is not true that 200,000 migrants got housed last year? It was widely reported with no rebuttal from anyone .. but you .. can you back this up?
> 
> 
> "But after an investigation by ITV's Tonight With Trevor McDonald programme, the Government has admitted that 200,000 of Britain's social homes - five per cent of the total - were given to immigrants last year. There is a waiting list of 1.5 million for the four million social houses in Britain. Priority for houses is given to those most in need. Immigrant families cannot automatically be put to the top of the queue, but often fall into needy groups by being homeless or living in overcrowded accommodation"
> ...



But what is the breakdown of these figures? In terms of type of dwelling? where it might be? Length of waiting list in the particular area? Are these 'immigrants' asylum seekers granted a right to remain? Are they single men? Are they families?

As I said, most of the housing allocated to immigrants where I am is in high rises and hard to let areas, where no one else wants to live. I used to work in an housing advice centre, so I know what has happened in my area. It's not as simple as quoting a figure of 200,000 immigrants and putting that alongside the figure of I.5 million waiting list. On a programme like ITV's tonight there is not much likelihood of a sophisticated analysis is there? It's just soundbites.


----------



## nino_savatte (Jul 10, 2007)

Just to repeat: migrant workers are not entitled to social housing. Immigrants and refugees are housed in temporary accommodation, like everyone else who applies for council housing. So-called "asylum seekers" are not entitled to benefits or social housing. People from the new EU states are not entitled to either social housing or benefits.

Durutti continues to insist that "migrants" are getting social housing unfairly because they are immigrants. For someone who insists that he isn't "against immigrants" he continues to regurgitate lie after lie. He does this because he doesn't like being "wrong". I wish he'd grow up.


----------



## nino_savatte (Jul 10, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs07/hosb0807.pdf
> 
> so another area for nino to think about ... in the five years from 2002 to 2006there were 700,000 thousend migrants given citizenship which gives full righst to social housing.
> 
> ...



They wait on the housing list like everyone else. You still have a problem with that - why?

Maybe if torres or one of your pals had said that, you wouldn't have a problem. Your problem seems to be with me not with the information. Grow up.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 10, 2007)

Divisive Cotton said:
			
		

> I say "there have never been single workplaces for single communities in London" and then you start talking about the north of England and Shildon and County Durham in particular. The history of the British working class is far more complex than your simplistic history. You think that a Dickenson society of thousands of employees per workplace was the norm. It was not.



You never said this ""there have never been single workplaces for single communities in London" till now. You may have meant it, but you cannot impose conditions that were in your head onto other people and their concerns.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Jul 10, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> You never said this ""there have never been single workplaces for single communities in London" till now. You may have meant it, but you cannot impose conditions that were in your head onto other people and their concerns.



What's this in post 641?

_Outside a few areas, there have never been single workplaces for single communities in London.​_
Louis MacNeice


----------



## nino_savatte (Jul 10, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> But what is the breakdown of these figures? In terms of type of dwelling? where it might be? Length of waiting list in the particular area? Are these 'immigrants' asylum seekers granted a right to remain? Are they single men? Are they families?
> 
> As I said, most of the housing allocated to immigrants where I am is in high rises and hard to let areas, where no one else wants to live. I used to work in an housing advice centre, so I know what has happened in my area. It's not as simple as quoting a figure of 200,000 immigrants and putting that alongside the figure of I.5 million waiting list. On a programme like ITV's tonight there is not much likelihood of a sophisticated analysis is there? It's just soundbites.



This is the problem with the figure that _The Telegraph_ has given: there is no breakdown and no information regarding temporary accommodation or hard to let properties that have been let to, not just immigrants, but to other applicants. I know that Hackney and Southwark used to have schemes, whereby they would use an open bidding process to let out hard-to-let properties. I would imagine that such properties are becoming harder to find.

Durutti continues to use the word "migrant" to illustrate his point but, as we all know, that word covers a variety of situations and circumstances. The programme also said that "most migrants will rent from the private sector".

Another issue that durutti avoids is the lack of new build social housing. Most councils haven't built any new homes for well over 20 years.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 10, 2007)

Louis MacNeice said:
			
		

> What's this in post 641?
> 
> _Outside a few areas, there have never been single workplaces for single communities in London.​_
> Louis MacNeice



Whoops. missed it. apologies.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 10, 2007)

More anti fascist news from the North - and more good news;

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2007/07/375359.html


----------



## durruti02 (Jul 11, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> Have you any data for the specific point you raise about London wages in the public sector and inflation over the many years you cite? It's not that I dion't believe you, I'm just interested.
> 
> I work in the charitable and voluntary sector and earn just over twelve grand a year (that's before tax), so there's no way I can afford to buy a house.
> 
> I did argue that immigration did have an affect on reducing wage growth for some in a post directed at you some time ago, when you stated, without any evidence, that immigration leads to a lowering of wages.



will look up


----------



## durruti02 (Jul 11, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> Just to repeat: migrant workers are not entitled to social housing. Immigrants and refugees are housed in temporary accommodation, like everyone else who applies for council housing. So-called "asylum seekers" are not entitled to benefits of social housing. People from the new EU states are not entitled to either social housing or benefits.
> 
> *Durutti continues to insist that "migrants" are getting social housing unfairly because they are immigrants*. For someone who insists that he isn't "against immigrants" he continues to regurgitate lie after lie. He does this because he doesn't like being "wrong". I wish he'd grow up.



you are such a fucking liar mate!!!  .. FFS constant lies .. jesus wept!! 


 i have stated and belive consistently that this is NOT the case .. that it is about need and migrants then often have more priority


----------



## nino_savatte (Jul 12, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> you are such a fucking liar mate!!!  .. FFS constant lies .. jesus wept!!
> 
> 
> i have stated and belive consistently that this is NOT the case .. that it is about need and migrants then often have more priority



No, it isn't a "lie" you posted up, what you rather charmingly described, as "scenarios"; you also posted a link to a Telegraph article which you used to 'support' your thesis. It's on this thread btw.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jul 12, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> No, it isn't a "lie" you posted up, what you rather charmingly described, as "scenarios"; you also posted a link to a Telegraph article which you used to 'support' your thesis. It's on this thread btw.


calm down calm down! has nobody ever misinterpreted your words?  No matter what has been said, he is clearly indicating how he meant his words to be interpreted.






			
				durruti02 said:
			
		

> i have stated and belive consistently that this is NOT the case .. that it is about need and migrants then often have more priority


it is absolutely clear there is an absolute level playing field.  Some time ago it was not so level.  A number of points extra used to be given for "local people".  This discriminated in favour of local people, and against nonlocal people.  this is clearly what durruti wants.  Why don't you construct a clear argument against such discrimination?


----------



## durruti02 (Jul 12, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> 1)This is the problem with the figure that _The Telegraph_ has given: there is no breakdown and no information regarding temporary accommodation or hard to let properties that have been let to, not just immigrants, but to other applicants.
> 
> 2)I know that Hackney and Southwark used to have schemes, whereby they would use an open bidding process to let out hard-to-let properties. I would imagine that such properties are becoming harder to find.
> 
> ...



1) yes you are right about the article. It IS unclear! And interestingly it is very hard to get hold of decent figures.  This was one of the areas that i genuinely hoped you would help us with as apperrently urbans sole housing officer rep!

2) these ended in the 1980s at least in hackney.

3) agreed 

4) agreed and see that i posted this back in early june.Talking to a mate earlier on today and he was helping some poles above him in small tower block ( 10 in 3 bed flat !) who were having problem with water and had a look at their contract .. they are being charged £1000 a week!!  another mate in bethnal green said similar over 2 years ago that majority of his (large ) council block was private sub lets .. 

5) nino nino nino  .. on here maybe mate but as a shop steward in council housing i plaster the walls of our depot with posters arguing for new council housing and with my HI hat i am regulalry campaigning for same .. it is high on peoples priorities/demands p.s. i was a delegate to DCH today to but didn't go as had other things to do


i hope you do not mind that i put numbers on your paragraphs .. if you do not like this will not do again!


----------



## durruti02 (Jul 12, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> Have you any data for the specific point you raise about London wages in the public sector and inflation over the many years you cite? It's not that I dion't believe you, I'm just interested.
> 
> I work in the charitable and voluntary sector and earn just over twelve grand a year (that's before tax), so there's no way I can afford to buy a house.
> 
> I did argue that immigration did have an affect on reducing wage growth for some in a post directed at you some time ago, when you stated, without any evidence, that immigration leads to a lowering of wages.



Wages in london are a lot higher!! but never high enough as property inflation is enormous. 

yes you are generally right it appears that migration causes, nationally, thru creating growth in a thatcherite fashion,  average wage growth. And we agree that it AT LEAST slows wage growth at the bottom. I think there is evidence that here wages are actually reduced sometimes.

anecdotally my wages have gone down consistently for almost 20 years relative to inflation. There has been a public sectorpay freeze for almost all this time with annual rises almost always below inflation.

as for wages actually being reduced? yes e.g local estate cleaners were all on what is called scale 3, that is now about 18k ( this ioncludes what is called inner london weighting).. so in cowboy firms that have many of these contracts we see wages of £14K and even £12K .. this in LONDON FFS  .. one company buses in portugese ever day, another relies on pakistani migrants. Local kids do not go for these jobs at these rates. 

ok so this is NOT a direct affect of migration. Fundamentally it is spivs looking to maximise profits from contracts. And we all accept this. My point is that WITHOUT this recent migration this would NOT be possible. WITHOUT migration the cowboys would not have been able to get workers at these shit rates. And it is EASIER getting migrants for whom the money is just OK to work, than FORCING locals relucantly into these jobs. And  so also unemplyment stays high!

as for figures? There are more but for now, the recent TUC report states in section 4.7

" A more recent independent study, using General Household Survey and
New Earnings Survey data,(40) found that “an increase in the number of
unskilled migrants reduces the wages of unskilled domestic workers. However
the quantitative impact of this increase is small. No discernible impact of
migration is found for skilled native workers.”

40 Migration, Trade and Wages, Alexander Hijzen and Peter Wright, University of Nottingham research paper series, research paper 2005/11


----------



## audiotech (Jul 12, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> ok so this is NOT a direct affect of migration. Fundamentally it is spivs looking to maximise profits from contracts. And we all accept this. My point is that WITHOUT this recent migration this would NOT be possible. WITHOUT migration the cowboys would not have been able to get workers at these shit rates. And it is EASIER getting migrants for whom the money is just OK to work, than FORCING locals relucantly into these jobs. And  so also unemplyment stays high!



So are you saying that the left should involve itself in a campaign to halt migrants coming here?


----------



## audiotech (Jul 12, 2007)

Back to BNP strategy, well one rich member at least:


----------



## audiotech (Jul 12, 2007)

Scab Union Boss's Wife A Dominatrix!


----------



## nino_savatte (Jul 13, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> Wages in london are a lot higher!! but never high enough as property inflation is enormous.



The trouble with that statement is that the cost of living in London dwarfs any wage, unless you happen to be on a six-figure salary.


----------



## nino_savatte (Jul 13, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> 1) yes you are right about the article. It IS unclear! And interestingly it is very hard to get hold of decent figures.  This was one of the areas that i genuinely hoped you would help us with as apperrently urbans sole housing officer rep!
> 
> 2) these ended in the 1980s at least in hackney.
> 
> ...



Actually, I do mind you tampering with my post - even if it is only to add numbers to the paragraphs. I don't do it to you or to anyone else. Therefore I don't expect others to edit my posts. If you add numbers then there is a fair chance that you add other things to other people's posts and I've already caught you doing that.

What you also don't seem to understand is that in my former occupation in housing, I did not have access to figures; it was not my job to number crunch. There is also another issue here: you say "this was one of the areas that i genuinely hoped you would help us with as *apperrently urbans sole housing officer rep!*". So if I don't 'produce' for you then that means, in your eyes and those of your mates, that I'm a liar. I don't think you'd be able to get a set of figures from anyone in housing. Even a trade magazine like _Inside Housing_ wouldn't have definitive figures. So I'm sorry about that. When I left housing almost 7 years ago, I did not expect to be performing tricks and dispensing data for posters on a public bulletin board. In fact, I wanted to forget about housing, I hated it so much.

What I would like to know is why you want me to answer all of you questions when you say that you work



> as a shop steward in council housing



So why don't you have access to this data? For the same reason that I didn't when I was working in housing. Furthermore, I would like to know why you felt it necessary to insinuate that I was lying about the points system?

RTB leaseholders have always overlooked the hidden cost of buying their own council home. So many leaseholders will let out either to students or immigrants. I used to meet many students on my rounds, many of them thought that they could get repair work done by the council until I told them that their landlord was responsible.

Subletting is illegal and all tenancy agreements state this. Those tenants who sublet are at risk of losing their home. 

Apparently, Brown has given the go ahead for local authorities to build new social housing.


----------



## durruti02 (Jul 13, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> So are you saying that the left should involve itself in a campaign to halt migrants coming here?



  you are funny mate!    .. np a campaign to get local sustainable employment at living wages  and to stop companies recruiting abroad particularly health workers from the third world. do you have a problem with either of them?


----------



## audiotech (Jul 13, 2007)

Oh and durruti02 I thought you might want to have a look at this.



> In 1993, Oldham Borough Council was found to have been operating an unlawful segregation policy in its housing allocation, which ghettoised Asians onto a rundown estate, while whites were given homes in a more desirable area.



Comments?

http://www.mediamonitors.net/mosaddeq6.html


----------



## audiotech (Jul 13, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> you are funny mate!    .. np a campaign to get local sustainable employment at living wages  and to stop companies recruiting abroad particularly health workers from the third world. do you have a problem with either of them?



I don't disagree with your first point, but your second point is over simplistic.

What about those who come here of their own accord?


----------



## JimPage (Jul 14, 2007)

BNP polled 19.5% yesterday in Rotherham Valley ward by election, coming second to Labour


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 15, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> BNP polled 19.5% yesterday in Rotherham Valley ward by election, coming second to Labour



In Labour heartlands there often isn't any opposition so it tends to artificially inflate the BNP vote - where there is some choice it tends to split that vote.


----------



## durruti02 (Jul 16, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> I don't disagree with your first point, but your second point is over simplistic.
> 
> What about those who come here of their own accord?



Well many do .. of that there is no question .. and as you know i support peoples right to move .. my whole agenda is about stopping the current neo liberal 'drive to the bottom', 'pull' .. 

as i have CONSTANTLY reiterated, it is not immigration that is the problem, not the colour of migrants that is the problem ( as the BNP state), but that the spivs who have taken over this country are so clearly using immigration to further their economic aims.


----------



## durruti02 (Jul 16, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> In Labour heartlands there often isn't any opposition so it tends to artificially inflate the BNP vote - where there is some choice it tends to split that vote.



attica .. i do not agree with this .. indeed it is EVEN worse if it is how you state ..

.. that whereas people might have voted LibDem in protest or then UKIP, NOW they vote for a party that ( so we are constantly told) is neo nazi.


----------



## durruti02 (Jul 16, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> Oh and durruti02 I thought you might want to have a look at this.
> Comments?
> 
> http://www.mediamonitors.net/mosaddeq6.html



this is news??? 

MC you think i do not accept that labour has used institutional racism for decades, and partly to control communities???? 

i agree with virtually all the article except it i think they underestimate the problem that some small sections of the muslim community have not tried to integrate. This inward insulare attidtude though is typical of communities unders pressure, but equally while racism has to be utterly destroyed, it will not be if either side stick to any form of relegious fundamentalism.

but also  .. i do not believe in a society of serperate but equal communities as a minority of fundamentalist muslims want .. seperate but equal is of course apartheid and the policy of many neo-nazis. 

most white people are not racist ( or do you differ) and do not support racism. The vast majority of white people also have no power even though they may be better of than their asian neighbours. It is this powerlessness that leads to scape goating .. it is this that needs to be dealt with.


----------



## audiotech (Jul 16, 2007)

Old news  and I agree with most of the points you make, apart from the "not tried to integrate" one, which I think you're confusing with the term 'assimilate'?


----------



## durruti02 (Jul 16, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> Old news  and I agree with most of the points you make, apart from the "not tried to integrate" one, which I think you're confusing with the term 'assimilate'?



not sure what you mean .. i am not saying people should merge .. but if you live in a country you should speak same language and not take fundamentalist stance on e.g. sharia as do a minority .. but as i said this is usually a reaction TOO oppression when people go inward looking .. which puts onus on majority pop to deal with issue


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 16, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> attica .. i do not agree with this .. indeed it is EVEN worse if it is how you state ..
> 
> .. that whereas people might have voted LibDem in protest or then UKIP, NOW they vote for a party that ( so we are constantly told) is neo nazi.



In Northern seats I am thinking of there was *no* alternative - Labour was all there was,  uncontested. Challenges from the Left even in times of mass working class struggles failed to register a significant vote. One I have been told of in my town in a council ward (Labour heartland, well known union man) only got 30 votes. 

I don't think it is as bad as you imply - the BNP have been widely touted by the media as a 'protest vote' so perhaps it is a self fullfilling prophecy? Until there is some serious research on this issue we are all 'blowing in the wind'.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 16, 2007)

> In Labour heartlands there often isn't any opposition so it tends to artificially inflate the BNP vote - where there is some choice it tends to split that vote.





> In Northern seats I am thinking of there was no alternative - Labour was all there was, uncontested



Which seats? There aren't any.


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## The Black Hand (Jul 16, 2007)

torres said:
			
		

> Which seats? There aren't any.



There's shed loads of them Torres.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 16, 2007)

Name them then. There aren't any.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 16, 2007)

torres said:
			
		

> Name them then. There aren't any.



Torres Norf, Torry South, Torez West, Tory East


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 16, 2007)

torres said:
			
		

> Name them then. There aren't any.



But seriously - are you gonna give me £100 if I go and name 1? I could you know, but I can't be bothered cos you are in some sort of petulent denial...


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 16, 2007)

If there is one and if there are many bumping then figures then i'll apologise here and now. 

I thought you were after political debate on this rather then one-up bollocks. But you show me the ones bumping the figures - the 10-20% uncontested please.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 16, 2007)

torres said:
			
		

> If there is one and if there are many bumping then figures then i'll apologise here and now.
> 
> I thought you were after political debate on this rather then one-up bollocks. But you show me the ones bumping the figures - the 10-20% uncontested please.



I do not know of any research on the issue but I know that they exist, and there are enough of them. How many %wise I do not know, but there are lots of them even if it is a small %.


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## butchersapron (Jul 16, 2007)

There aren't any The only uncontested seat was in wiltshire. You're bullshitting. Anyone seriously following the BNPs electoral fortunes over the last 10 years knows that this is lazy bollocks. Not true. Please don't base things on what you *expect* (or would like) to happen. Or you'll get left behind.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 16, 2007)

torres said:
			
		

> There aren't any The only uncontested seat was in Calne. You're bullshitting. Anyone seriously following the BNPs electoral fortunes over the last 10 years knows that this is lazy bollocks. Not true. Please don't base things on what you *expect* (or would like) to happen. Or you'll get left behind.




Here's 2003 then Mr Know it all;

http://greataycliffe.sedgefield.gov...s/electoral-services/election-results-2003.en

Quite a few 'no contests' and that in one small borough council... There are more...


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## butchersapron (Jul 16, 2007)

Uh....you've found no uncontested seats and _none that boost the BNPs_ vote nationally - unless you count 84 votes as inflating the figures. keep aiming at the wrong target though.


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## The Black Hand (Jul 16, 2007)

torres said:
			
		

> Uh....you've found no uncontested seats and _none that boost the BNPs_ vote nationally - unless you count 84 votes as inflating the figures. keep aiming at the wrong target though.



WTF are you on? Your comment is gibberish - no contest seats a plenty there... Who gives a toss about the BNP - they're irrelevant


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 16, 2007)

> In Labour heartlands there often isn't any opposition so it tends to artificially inflate the BNP vote - where there is some choice it tends to split that vote.



Where is this inflation - and why is it artificial?


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 16, 2007)

Here's some proper analysis for you - go look at that 2003 link in the Broom ward, Brian Gibson is standing as 'Socialist Labour' and nearly gets a seat. 

In 2007 he stands as an independent and gets less votes;

http://greataycliffe.sedgefield.gov...gh-council-local-government-elections-2007.en

This looks like opposition from the Left exists, and they're doing ok.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 16, 2007)

Can you please tie this to some sort of point? iI anyhting it showes that the left is dead if you want to extrapolate like stupid.

This is it from now on is it, you desperately trying to blow up the left?


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 16, 2007)

Yeah, the left is winning. Fucking hell. We could not be in a better postion could we?


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 16, 2007)

torres said:
			
		

> Can you please tie this to some sort of point? iI anyhting it showes that the left is dead if you want to extrapolate like stupid.
> 
> This is it from now on is it, you desperately trying to blow up the left?



But you are trying to denigrate them and that is the other extreme, I prefer the middle realistic ground to be tbh.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 16, 2007)

A no then.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 16, 2007)

torres said:
			
		

> Yeah, the left is winning. Fucking hell. We could not be in a better postion could we?



Here's Gateshead from this year;

http://www.gateshead.gov.uk/Council and Democracy/voting/results2007.aspx

GO and have an objective look at these results on a low turnout admittedly;

BNP standing, but coming nowhere in all seats, 8-10% roughly I would guess.

The traditional parties all standing and doing OK. The result? Status quo.

There's plenty to say about this of course...


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 16, 2007)

8-10% with little or no party organisation up there - this is bad?  The BNP normalisng a vote of that size (and it was 15% across sunderland wasn't it?) for them behind everyones back and in certain areas - the status quo? Dream on.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 16, 2007)

torres said:
			
		

> 8-10% with little or no party organisation up there - this is bad?  The BNP normalisng a vote of that size (and it was 15% across sunderland wasn't it?) for them behind everyones back and in certain areas - the status quo? Dream on.




If you want to bring Sunderland into it I shall go and check the figures, but they are on a year on year decline in Sunderland I think, around 13% now (my memory tells me this although I will now go and check).

If you want more of the status quo there are 2 easy examples in the North East that come to mind. Firstly, Middlesborough - with no BNP candidates at all!! And then Stockton on Tees; http://www.stockton.gov.uk/ 2 candidates with around 8/10% of the vote (and I suspect I have inflated their vote but I cannot be bothered to check). 

Result? Status quo.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 16, 2007)

No, not with a normalised 10-15% BNP vote in w/c communities. Not even close to the status quo. A status quo which itself is not good enough btw. Can't you begin to see the danger that this poses? Really?


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 16, 2007)

torres said:
			
		

> No, not with a normalised 10-15% BNP vote in w/c communities. Not even close to the status quo. A status quo which itself is not good enough btw. Can't you begin to see the danger that this poses? Really?




But it is not normalised in all W/c communities, a limited number maybe. But none in a big city like Boro IS significant. The BNP votes there are, are erratic, some wards higher, some lower. 

Danger? I laugh in the face of danger and spit in its eye  

But seriously, I think the anti fascist left in this country is in a piss poor state. But then I said this in the article I sent you - have you read it yet? I think the way forward is in more unity and solidarity, not less.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 16, 2007)

torres said:
			
		

> No, not with a normalised 10-15% BNP vote in w/c communities. Not even close to the status quo. A status quo which itself is not good enough btw. Can't you begin to see the danger that this poses? Really?



Here the BNP are experimenting with getting votes - there are 2 main stories on their website at the minute, and here is the latest one with the 'N' in 'BNP' taken out;

http://www.b p.org.uk/news_detail.php?newsId=1615

They clearly are desperate to use any line possible to promote themselves, an attack on Spence's 4x4, and then blaming labour for it. It's rubbish. I think they will do poorly in Sedgefield... There's a lot of delusions of grandeur and wishful thinking in their self promotion. Calling themselves the 'new kids on the block' politically - its bollocks.


----------



## mk12 (Jul 16, 2007)

I think torres has said it before, but if leftist candidates were pulling in these votes in these areas, there would be endless threads on here praising them for breakthroughs.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 17, 2007)

mk12 said:
			
		

> I think torres has said it before, but if leftist candidates were pulling in these votes in these areas, there would be endless threads on here praising them for breakthroughs.



  There never has been though has there. Apart from the CP around/after WW2. 

Not every leftist group has prioritised elections, and certainly anarchists never have! Fetishisation of elections is the preserve of bourgeois politics.


----------



## tbaldwin (Jul 17, 2007)

Those the devil wishes to destroy,he first drives mad.
Post 706 on BNP strategy....


----------



## JimPage (Jul 17, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> In Labour heartlands there often isn't any opposition so it tends to artificially inflate the BNP vote - where there is some choice it tends to split that vote.



Disagree with you on this one- full vote below with 5 votes and chancged to May 2007

Rotherham MBC, Valley
Lab 781 (43.8; -1.5),
BNP 348 (19.5; +2.0), 
Ind 308 (17.3; +17.3),
Con 197 (11.0; -10.4),
LD 150 (8.4; -7.4).

Thats a full slate of mainstream candidates- and an independent who wasnt there last time- and the BNP vote went up ( a litttle, but still up)


----------



## JimPage (Jul 17, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> Here the BNP are experimenting with getting votes ..... It's rubbish. I think they will do poorly in Sedgefield... There's a lot of delusions of grandeur and wishful thinking in their self promotion. .



1. The experiment started in 2000  

2. As to sedgefield, if you can judge by the council election results in 2007, dont agree- there is some potential for them there. They stood in 14 of the 16 sedgefield wards- polling anwyhere between 39.9% and 3.3% with a total vote of 5,706 in those wards. if they can turn some of this support into votes this time round, and poll anywhere over 2,000 votes this time round I can see a saved deposit at least for them


----------



## durruti02 (Jul 17, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> There never has been though has there. Apart from the CP around/after WW2.
> 
> Not every leftist group has prioritised elections, and certainly anarchists never have! Fetishisation of elections is the preserve of bourgeois politics.



attica 

we are NOT fetishing elections .. 

we are not panicing 

etc etc 

and torres clearly there are many seats in rural areas that are unpposed indy or tory and in urban areas there are some unopposed lab

but actually attica i do not see what relevance this has

can we not agree that we have a neo nazi organisation with unprecedented in british history, votes? 

can we also not agree that they still though do not have the organisation to do anything with this vote and that it may be a purely protest vote?

clealry you have a beef with torres but it is not developing how we deal with the BNP WHEN we need to.


----------



## durruti02 (Jul 17, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> 1. The experiment started in 2000
> 
> 2. As to sedgefield, if you can judge by the council election results in 2007, dont agree- there is some potential for them there. They stood in 14 of the 16 sedgefield wards- polling anwyhere between 39.9% and 3.3% with a total vote of 5,706 in those wards. if they can turn some of this support into votes this time round, and poll anywhere over 2,000 votes this time round I can see a saved deposit at least for them



I count 3,900 but anyway JP i essentially agree with you .. 

surely attica their vote has gone up massively from 2003 to 2007 .. from just over 300 to many thousend is surely an issue??

p.s. what is the differrence between Sedgefield Council and Great Aycliffe council??


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 19, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> Disagree with you on this one- full vote below with 5 votes and chancged to May 2007
> 
> Rotherham MBC, Valley
> Lab 781 (43.8; -1.5),
> ...



This seems to me to be evidence of their vote peaking in this ward. Of course, whether it splits and by how much is down to local conditions, and efforts of the parties and the class composition and experience of voters differs in all wards...


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## nino_savatte (Jul 19, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> p.s. what is the differrence between Sedgefield Council and Great Aycliffe council??



Practically the same difference that exists between North Herts Council and Stevenage Borough Council: geography.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 19, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> 1. The experiment started in 2000
> 
> 2. As to sedgefield, if you can judge by the council election results in 2007, dont agree- there is some potential for them there. They stood in 14 of the 16 sedgefield wards- polling anwyhere between 39.9% and 3.3% with a total vote of 5,706 in those wards. if they can turn some of this support into votes this time round, and poll anywhere over 2,000 votes this time round I can see a saved deposit at least for them



They seem to have thrown a lot of effort into this seat but I don't live in the ward and have heard nothing about their actual efforts - though they are boasting about the efforts they are putting in. Including adverts in a local paper. There is some potential true, and given the money and apparent effort they put in, a saved deposit wouldn't be such a surprise. We'll see l8r. I didn't expect the newspaper adds for a start... There is a lot of wishful thinking by them on their website though - that is clear...


----------



## durruti02 (Jul 19, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> Practically the same difference that exists between North Herts Council and Stevenage Borough Council: geography.



so why do all the wards have the same names then?


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## nino_savatte (Jul 19, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> so why do all the wards have the same names then?



"Wards"? You mentioned two seperate local authorities in your post.


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## durruti02 (Jul 19, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> This seems to me to be evidence of their vote peaking in this ward. Of course, whether it splits and by how much is down to local conditions, and efforts of the parties and the class composition and experience of voters differs in all wards...



sorry attica but if we had said 20 years ago that in 2006 we would accept a neo nazi vote averaging 20% in working class areas, i would be very suprised. It was inconceivable then and should be now.


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## durruti02 (Jul 19, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> "Wards"? You mentioned two seperate local authorities in your post.



yes that's what is wierd!


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## The Black Hand (Jul 19, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> sorry attica but if we had said 20 years ago that in 2006 we would accept a neo nazi vote averaging 20% in working class areas, i would be very suprised. It was inconceivable then and should be now.



But its not - it is only in a minority of wards... 

BTW - other people get criticised for calling them 'nazi'...


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## The Black Hand (Jul 20, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> 1. The experiment started in 2000
> 
> 2. As to sedgefield, if you can judge by the council election results in 2007, dont agree- there is some potential for them there. They stood in 14 of the 16 sedgefield wards- polling anwyhere between 39.9% and 3.3% with a total vote of 5,706 in those wards. if they can turn some of this support into votes this time round, and poll anywhere over 2,000 votes this time round I can see a saved deposit at least for them




1. Yes, there was a new path then, I was talking about how they are thinking on their feet in THIS election though. Having looked at their material I think their political judgement is wrong constantly in a number of ways.

2. Sedgefield results! Labour win on 40% turnout - 12K, 7K majority, down but respectable enough, Lib dem second, Tory 3rd, BNP 4th - 2,494 votes - 10% ish, Local independent 5th (forget name). 

This ward represents a full on BNP try in a local election, which realised probably their maximum vote in this area. At a general election the result would be different simply because they would be spread too thin to get even this vote again - not get the adverts in the local paper cos they were funded nationally and probably internationally etc...  

*The local independent is the winner here I think, from nowhere, without a national profile, to 5th out of 12 runners*


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## The Black Hand (Jul 20, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> sorry attica but if we had said 20 years ago that in 2006 we would accept a neo nazi vote averaging 20% in working class areas, i would be very suprised. It was inconceivable then and should be now.



Maybe, but its not so much of a surprise given events in Europe. As I said I believe a lot of the BNP votes are votes that were already there, but not reaped. In other words there wasn't much politically for them to do to get those votes. 

I also repeat that Griffin is not that good, the far harder and first task for him to accomplish is to break into the next level of votes, and this will be the 1st really serious test of his leadership. I think we can look forward to some years of them treading water before they realise this.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 20, 2007)

This is still head in the sand stuff as reagrds the BNP. Around 10% in the only nationally visible elction of the day which all the mainstream parties piled resources and energy into is a good enough result, especialy when placed alongside them seeming to finally be getting on top of the UKIP vote which has been a stubborn stumbling block for them for some time. 

How on earth, after your trumpeting of the left and playing down the BNP vote can you then go onto say that the independent is the real succes story only half of the BNP vote! It's madness. Everything that you say about the BNP vote applies even more so to the indepenednent (i'd be interested in what his platform was) and these people do tend to be attached to a very specific single campaign then dissapear. The BNP can translate 10% in one constituency into a number of council seats with a bit of dedicated work - and they will, imagine the propoganda bonus of getting an elected counillor in Blairs old ward. 

Time to start facing what these figues mean - an analysis based on there always being a  a resevoir of far-right voters that hadn't previoulsy been tapped shouldn't comfort you but instead give you pause to thought and realise that if you're correct then these people are now starting to be tapped, starting to come out to vote and maybe get involved on an orgnaisational level - it's a sign that the dynamic is with them. It's bad, not good.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 20, 2007)

The independent seems to be a law-and-order type, shopkeeper, magistrate, pro-business etc

http://tinyurl.com/yuykbr


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 20, 2007)

torres said:
			
		

> This is still head in the sand stuff as reagrds the BNP. Around 10% in the only nationally visible elction of the day which all the mainstream parties piled resources and energy into is a good enough result, especialy when placed alongside them seeming to finally be getting on top of the UKIP vote which has been a stubborn stumbling block for them for some time.
> 
> How on earth, after your trumpeting of the left and playing down the BNP vote can you then go onto say that the independent is the real succes story only half of the BNP vote! It's madness. Everything that you say about the BNP vote applies even more so to the indepenednent (i'd be interested in what his platform was) and these people do tend to be attached to a very specific single campaign then dissapear. The BNP can translate 10% in one constituency into a number of council seats with a bit of dedicated work - and they will, imagine the propoganda bonus of getting an elected counillor in Blairs old ward.
> 
> Time to start facing what these figues mean - an analysis based on there always being a  a resevoir of far-right voters that hadn't previoulsy been tapped shouldn't comfort you but instead give you pause to thought and realise that if you're correct then these people are now starting to be tapped, starting to come out to vote and maybe get involved on an orgnaisational level - it's a sign that the dynamic is with them. It's bad, not good.



Yes, its an OK result for the BNP, but the Independent is still the days winner. Its madness to deny that - Look at the result closely;

BNP 2,494
Ind 1,885

Far from being half of the BNP vote, it is in fact *75.6% *of the BNP vote - i did the maths. Given that the Independent does not have the national recognition that the BNP has, could not draw on activists and money from outside the region, the independent has done spectacularly well.

As for them getting a council seat, perhaps the odd one, but again its nothing to get excited about. They've already got some of those in other places and the sky hasn't collapsed. 

In one area of that constituency there is already an independent force in Newton Aycliffe with councillors.

Regarding your last paragraph, they have already been tapping the far right reservoir, which is leading to their current level of vote. As I said the first real qualitative test of Griffins leadership skillls is to take the BNP beyond the current level, and onto the next level of votes/councillors. That is going to be far harder for them too achieve. Unfortunatley for them, their first wave peak is at such a level for them to wake up everybody else to move against them. Which is one of the reasons why their next real test is whether they can achieve an 'even more worrying' level of success, beyond the current one, in which they are currently trapped...


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 20, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> Yes, its an OK result for the BNP, but the Independent is still the days winner. Its madness to deny that - Look at the result closely;
> 
> BNP 2,494
> Ind 1,885
> ...



Saving a deposoit is a good start sure, but there 2 other things - firstly, all the other independent candidates stood down in favour of him and asked their supporters to vote or him. That's not something thta happens all the time and not something that is likley to happen again, it was a result of it being an election with  a national foucs due to it being Bair's seat. That's gone now. And secondly, his politics - magistrate, small businessman, where do you think he's coming from? The left?

They're not 'trapped' they're easily enough picking up good results nationally, they're laying the organisational basis for a more sustained and widespread challenge and with each set of elections or by-election that they perform well in they are steadily normalisng a vote for the BNP.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 20, 2007)

torres said:
			
		

> Saving a deposoit is a good start sure, but there 2 other things - firstly, all the other independent candidates stood down in favour of him and asked their supporters to vote or him. That's not something thta happens all the time and not something that is likley to happen again, it was a result of it being an election with  a national foucs due to it being Bair's seat. That's gone now. And secondly, his politics - magistrate, small businessman, where do you think he's coming from? The left?
> 
> They're not 'trapped' they're easily enough picking up good results nationally, they're laying the organisational basis for a more sustained and widespread challenge and with each set of elections or by-election that they perform well in they are steadily normalisng a vote for the BNP.



I am not bothered about his politics - I was being realistic in the assesment of 'who won' the election.

We differ in opinion then, I say they are trapped at the current level. I agree this does mean that the BNP is capable of organisational growth, and leads towards a steady normalising. But so what? Perhaps AFA would have been better if they smacked them around for a few more years rather than change their politics   That way it might have prevented what we have now  Seriously harming Griffin today though would be good news Perhaps at the next election 

Is your analysis that this 'creeping creepy BNP' vote widening going to lead to what sort of situation? At the minute the Left is not prevented from doing anything, it has only itself to blame. But especially the far left and hippies who left the long term apolitical British atmosphere intact. From this position of historical weakness ultra left strategies (local or other) are not the way forward.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 20, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> I am not bothered about his politics - I was being realistic in the assesment of 'who won' the election.
> 
> We differ in opinion then, I say they are trapped at the current level. I agree this does mean that the BNP is capable of organisational growth, and leads towards a steady normalising. But so what? Perhaps AFA would have been better if they smacked them around for a few more years rather than change their politics   That way it might have prevented what we have now  Seriously harming Griffin today though would be good news Perhaps at the next election
> 
> Is your analysis that this 'creeping creepy BNP' vote widening going to lead to what sort of situation? At the minute the Left is not prevented from doing anything, it has only itself to blame. But especially the far left and hippies who left the long term apolitical British atmosphere intact. From this position of historical weakness ultra left strategies (local or other) are not the way forward.



Well any serious assesment has to take into account his politics, you can't ignore politics. You can't point to his result as a success if he's coming from the right, esp when the left was not only unable to take advantage of any anti-mainstream parties sentiment that there may be, but were unable to even rustle up a candidate - with a BNP circa 10% (plus potential UKIP voters switching at a later date, not to mention the independent voters) that again, is not a sign of health. 

It's actually a sign of what i think the BNP vote means - it means that they are much further down the road of colonising the anti-mainstream parties population's vote, thereby blocking the development of an independent working class politics - their approach is the one that is being normalised nationally at the minute, the racialisation of social issues, the looking at socila issues in terms of race rather than class. 

Each step thay take forwards knocks the 'left' (for want of  a better term) backwards - they're not running on seperate tracks unaffecting each other, they're on the one track - why you can't see these steps forward i don't know. These people aren't 'human dust' - they're out there today, insinuating themselves and their politics in our comminoities, basing themselves on our social needs (but twiating them) and are picking up historically unprecedented results.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 20, 2007)

torres said:
			
		

> Well any serious assesment has to take into account his politics, you can't ignore politics. You can't point to his result as a success if he's coming from the right, esp when the left was not only unable to take advantage of any anti-mainstream parties sentiment that there may be, but were unable to even rustle up a candidate - with a BNP circa 10% (plus potential UKIP voters switching at a later date, not to mention the independent voters) that again, is not a sign of health.
> 
> It's actually a sign of what i think the BNP vote means - it means that they are much further down the road of colonising the anti-mainstream parties population's vote, thereby blocking the development of an independent working class politics - their approach is the one that is being normalised nationally at the minute, the racialisation of social issues, the looking at socila issues in terms of race rather than class.
> 
> Each step thay take forwards knocks the 'left' (for want of  a better term) backwards - they're not running on seperate tracks unaffecting each other, they're on the one track - why you can't see these steps forward i don't know. These people aren't 'human dust' - they're out there today, insinuating themselves and their politics in our comminoities, basing themselves on our social needs (but twiating them) and are picking up historically unprecedented results.



You can ignore his poilitics - its called abstraction - a standard Marxist method of analysis. 

I see your pov, I understand its analysis and concerns. I just am not concerned to the degree that you think I should be. 

I disagree with the way it has been presented by and large, and I have already said that ultra leftism is not the answer. 'Ultra leftism' is a generic term which has several different forms - one of which is 'parochial purist localist' which is reactionary. 

The answer I think must be wider than a concentration on the BNP, and involve other sections of the working class.


----------



## durruti02 (Jul 20, 2007)

torres said:
			
		

> Well any serious assesment has to take into account his politics, you can't ignore politics. You can't point to his result as a success if he's coming from the right, esp when the left was not only unable to take advantage of any anti-mainstream parties sentiment that there may be, but were unable to even rustle up a candidate - with a BNP circa 10% (plus potential UKIP voters switching at a later date, not to mention the independent voters) that again, is not a sign of health.
> 
> It's actually a sign of what i think the BNP vote means - it means that they are much further down the road of colonising the anti-mainstream parties population's vote, thereby blocking the development of an independent working class politics - their approach is the one that is being normalised nationally at the minute, the racialisation of social issues, the looking at socila issues in terms of race rather than class.
> 
> Each step thay take forwards knocks the 'left' (for want of  a better term) backwards - they're not running on seperate tracks unaffecting each other, they're on the one track - why you can't see these steps forward i don't know. These people aren't 'human dust' - they're out there today, insinuating themselves and their politics in our comminoities, basing themselves on our social needs (but twiating them) and are picking up historically unprecedented results.



excellently argued post i think


----------



## durruti02 (Jul 20, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> The answer I think must be wider than a concentration on the BNP, and involve other sections of the working class.



do you really think i or jim page or torres disagrees with this? please do not  confuse with volume of debate versus peoples actual activity.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 22, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> do you really think i or jim page or torres disagrees with this? please do not  confuse with volume of debate versus peoples actual activity.



Perhaps. 

Here are some culled figures from the June 2007 BNP paper on the situation in Rotherham;

_Total Rotherham votes May 2007

The votes cast across the six
wards contested by the BNP
were as follows:
Labour ...................... 7,298
BNP .......................... 4,683
Conservative ............. 3,385
Lib-Dem .................... 1,841
Independent ............. 913_

Clearly this is an urgent problem which goes beyond group politics, and I know there are good lefties in that area (went to a do May 2006 with a few). What they think though I do not know.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 23, 2007)

Perhaps our posters here had better stop fecking around and have a look at other forums-  look at this thread;

http://www.thesun.co.uk/discussions/posts/list/18619.page

500 ish comments and an open BNP member/poster not getting enough flak...


----------



## JHE (Jul 23, 2007)

Best tell 'em about praxis.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 23, 2007)

JHE said:
			
		

> Best tell 'em about praxis.



At the minute there's 5 thread titles with BNP in them on the Sun news forum.


----------



## JHE (Jul 23, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> At the minute there's 5 thread titles with BNP in them on the Sun news forum.



Start six threads with 'praxis', 'revolution', 'Class War' or 'anarchism' in the title.  That'll show 'em.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 23, 2007)

JHE said:
			
		

> Start six threads with 'praxis', 'revolution', 'Class War' or 'anarchism' in the title.  That'll show 'em.



You're the man that talks about them all the time - you had better do it.


----------



## JHE (Jul 23, 2007)

I'm going to start a thread there about liberated foxes attacking parking meters and, since it's the Sun, another about a topless international brigade  of whoaaaar-worthy lovelies.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 23, 2007)

JHE said:
			
		

> I'm going to start a thread there about liberated foxes attacking parking meters and, since it's the Sun, another about a topless international brigade  of whoaaaar-worthy lovelies.



Well I've had a dabble and I think have done very well against them... Your turn now JHE, really....


----------



## JimPage (Jul 23, 2007)

and the other fallout from Sedgefield for the BNP has been pressure from inside the tories to stop the centrist drift with Cameron, and significant grumblings amoung UKIP/EDP types as to their poor result-and the BNP result being remarked upon by right leaning papers like the Mail and Telegraph


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 30, 2007)

Is this story true? 

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2007/07/377256.html

If it is, it is good news for anti fascists i think...


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 30, 2007)

BNP leadership election result: 

Nick Griffin: 3363 (91%) 
Chris Jackson: 337 (9%) 

Turnout 43% 

http://www.****bnp.org.uk/news_detail.php?newsId=1635

A result which means, if correct, they have around 8000 members in good standing. Larger than all the left parties put togther.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 30, 2007)

butchersapron said:
			
		

> BNP leadership election result:
> 
> Nick Griffin: 3363 (91%)
> Chris Jackson: 337 (9%)
> ...



7400 to be precise. But here quality not quantity is important i think  whoops fucked up on the maths...

Anyway I was on about their 'night of the long knives' - anti democratic purging - which has led one of them at least to go public...


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 30, 2007)

I think that gives 8604 paid up members if my maths is right - somebody pls check.


----------



## JHE (Jul 30, 2007)

Yes, right on the second attempt, Attica:  8604 or 8605 

The other thing, though, is that 57% of the members couldn't be bothered to vote in a leadership contest.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 30, 2007)

JHE said:
			
		

> Yes, right on the second attempt, Attica:  8604 or 8605
> 
> The other thing, though, is that 57% of the members couldn't be bothered to vote in a leadership contest.



I think a large chunk of that might reasonably be out down to it being a  forgeone conclusion...


----------



## JimPage (Jul 30, 2007)

butchersapron said:
			
		

> I think a large chunk of that might reasonably be out down to it being a  forgeone conclusion...



and that Jackson was offerring little more than to take the BNP back to 1997 in ideological terms.  basically, he offerred such a hardlinE point of view most BNP  rank and file rejected him


----------



## durruti02 (Jul 30, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> Perhaps.
> 
> Here are some culled figures from the June 2007 BNP paper on the situation in Rotherham;
> 
> ...




attica mate i and others have been telling you about yorks for ages!!   ..


----------



## audiotech (Jul 30, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> I think that gives 8604 paid up members if my maths is right - somebody pls check.



I've read somewhere it's nearer 5,000.



> I will seek to have police action carried out against this vile Internet site, but I also intend to resign as cultural officer, advisory council member and member of the BNP. I do not wish to associate-even tangentially-with such low-grade lycanthropes and psychotic criminals. Williams, I gather, is a convicted drug dealer and career criminal with a string of convictions.
> 
> I have many other and better things to do with my life in future.
> 
> ...



Strong words indeed. The affect of this is bad news for the BNP's activist base. As a commentator on the UAF blog notes: "...other ex-Tory rightwingers might be nervously wondering what they've got themselves into?"


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 30, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> Perhaps.
> 
> Here are some culled figures from the June 2007 BNP paper on the situation in Rotherham;
> 
> ...



This was followed up with another 19% vote there the week before last in a local by-election.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 30, 2007)

JHE said:
			
		

> Yes, right on the second attempt, Attica:  8604 or 8605
> 
> The other thing, though, is that 57% of the members couldn't be bothered to vote in a leadership contest.



Yes I have to agree - that does show that they perhaps are not as good as they pretend, but also some of it must be put down to Butchers point.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 30, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> attica mate i and others have been telling you about yorks for ages!!   ..



Yes, but there's huge differences in fortunes even in Yorkshire.Take the city of Sheffield (or York), right next door to Rotherham, they could only muster 7 candidates and did badly. In Rotherham, (apart from Barnsley), it looks like they have hit critical mass, and I didn't realise they were doing well there.

My point was that urgent action is required in Rotherham (and Barnsley) that goes beyond group boundaries and 'political lines'. In those areas it is no longer good enough to abstain from whatever opposition can be found, even if you disagree with it. In short, a bigger anything is better than nothing.

Those of us without such pressure may able to argue finer points, but in those areas the days of ultra leftism are over.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 30, 2007)

butchersapron said:
			
		

> This was followed up with another 19% vote there the week before last in a local by-election.



To me that suggests it is down on their average vote from the May election then.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 30, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> do you really think i or jim page or torres disagrees with this? please do not  confuse with volume of debate versus peoples actual activity.



I was suggesting that the days of ultra leftism (leftism here includes whatever shade of anarchism) are over, instead the reason of politics is to act, with effect. If your ideas are holding you back from having any effect, then you need to get involved with others who could. I am not saying abandon your commitment, but just get involved with something else and measure thats' success or not.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 30, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> To me that suggests it is down on their average vote from the May election then.



I don't think you can really  call a result where the BNP came second and beat the combined lib-dem and tory vote anything but encouraging for them:

Labour 781 - 44%
BNP 348 - 20%
Ind 308 - 17%
Con 197 - 11%
LibDem 150 - 8%


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 30, 2007)

butchersapron said:
			
		

> I don't think you can really  call a result where the BNP came second and beat the combined lib-dem and tory vote anything but encouraging for them:
> 
> Labour 781 - 44%
> BNP 348 - 20%
> ...



That makes sense when you've added the relevant % Though I would add that the strength of the Labour vote held up well.


----------



## mk12 (Jul 30, 2007)

That's alright then.


----------



## JimPage (Jul 31, 2007)

JHE said:
			
		

> Yes, right on the second attempt, Attica:  8604 or 8605
> 
> The other thing, though, is that 57% of the members couldn't be bothered to vote in a leadership contest.



well consider the related example of the Labour Deputy leadership election- which was well covered in the media etc. i dont have the exact figures, but 
John Cruddas`s webpages reports "under half" of labour party members could be arsed to vote (in a very contested election with a range of canddiates from blairite to socialist) and an abysmal 8% of union members who could vote, returning their ballots

it is probably like most political parties in the BNP in one respect. 50% of members do nothing - even bother voting in internal elections. 35% may turn out if it is election time, griffin is speaking at their local branch or there is a beer to be drunk. the remaining 15% are out there every week leafletting,
paper selling etc.

one indication of activist numbers is the 881 members who stood as candidates in may - compared to 68 in 2002.


----------



## JimPage (Jul 31, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> Yes, but there's huge differences in fortunes even in Yorkshire.Take the city of Sheffield (or York), right next door to Rotherham, they could only muster 7 candidates and did badly. In Rotherham, (apart from Barnsley), it looks like they have hit critical mass, and I didn't realise they were doing well there.
> .



i disagree with your stats here. in addition to Rotherham with 2 votes over 3 over 20%, you get they polled over 20% in 4 barnsley wards and got over 20% in 2 doncaster wards for the first time

as to sheffield, accepted, they only got over 20% in one ward, but may 2007 for them was not always about numbers. in some towns they stood widely, in some they concentrated resources in a small number of wards for tactical reasons (like walsall for example). york wasnt that goos, but they did beat some major party candidates 

its a depth of support which is worrying


----------



## The Black Hand (Aug 1, 2007)

mk12 said:
			
		

> That's alright then.



It's important because to win the BNP must break through that Labour vote. If there is no hope of that happening the fascists are never going to be a threat in that ward and resources can be concentrated elsewhere.


----------



## The Black Hand (Aug 1, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> i disagree with your stats here. in addition to Rotherham with 2 votes over 3 over 20%, you get they polled over 20% in 4 barnsley wards and got over 20% in 2 doncaster wards for the first time
> 
> as to sheffield, accepted, they only got over 20% in one ward, but may 2007 for them was not always about numbers. in some towns they stood widely, in some they concentrated resources in a small number of wards for tactical reasons (like walsall for example). york wasnt that goos, but they did beat some major party candidates
> 
> its a depth of support which is worrying



Sheffield they did appallingly, Barnsley they are doing well, very well, unfortunately. The crucial areas to try to stop them are Barnsley and Rotherham imho, Sheffield is taking care of itself, Doncaster could be one to watch though, BUT I think it is too like Sheffield. Though some villages may become problematic.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 1, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> It's important because to win the BNP must break through that Labour vote. If there is no hope of that happening the fascists are never going to be a threat in that ward and resources can be concentrated elsewhere.



Leaving Labour with a free run!

Don't look at it in nakedly electoral terms - a regular 20% vote without being able to break the labour vote _is a problem in itself_. It means a sizable proportion of the pop is voting BNP and the rest for the party that's imposing the conditions that allow the far-right to flourish. A labour vote is not the answer.


----------



## The Black Hand (Aug 1, 2007)

butchersapron said:
			
		

> Leaving Labour with a free run!
> 
> Don't look at it in nakedly electoral terms - a regular 20% vote without being able to break the labour vote _is a problem in itself_. It means a sizable proportion of the pop is voting BNP and the rest for the party that's imposing the conditions that allow the far-right to flourish. A labour vote is not the answer.



Yours is utopian then - which wants to take everybody on, all at once, everywhere. That's the problem with an overly ultra left/left communist approach, it theorises itself out of political engagement.

Mine was a tactical observation which recognises the limited forces at our disposal - start from small acorns and all that, tactically in the right places.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 1, 2007)

How can an argument for a political approach that takes on labour *and* the BNP (or 'everyone' as you put it) simulateneously be theorising itself out of political engagement?

The plain fact is, that if you take on labour you're automatically taking on those issues from which the BNP is growing. It's not either/or.


----------



## The Black Hand (Aug 1, 2007)

butchersapron said:
			
		

> How can an argument for a political approach that takes on labour *and* the BNP (or 'everyone' as you put it) simulateneously be theorising itself out of political engagement?
> 
> The plain fact is, that if you take on labour you're automatically taking on those issues from which the BNP is growing. It's not either/or.



You said 'leaving Labour with a free run'. Implying that you wanted to take on Labour in that ward. I said that ward could be ignored and resources concentrated elsewhere. I do not think imposing a national policy which "takes on labour *and* the BNP (or 'everyone' as you put it)"  is a political answer to the tactical demands we now face as a movement. It's about realistic attempts to put alternative anti fascism into practice against Ideologically Correct (I.C.) policy which does not engage. Incidentally IC politics needs to be demonised far more than PC is 

Do you want to realistically take on the BNP or not? If so, a tactical pov is necessary to halt and reverse their spreading, starting with areas where they are on the edge of a councillor or two. I am not saying this is a national policy, but certainly it is one  that is regionally applicable.


----------



## JimPage (Aug 2, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> Do you want to realistically take on the BNP or not? If so, a tactical pov is necessary to halt and reverse their spreading, starting with areas where they are on the edge of a councillor or two. I am not saying this is a national policy, but certainly it is one  that is regionally applicable.



tacitical voting is aleady organised between labour and liberals in a number of areas- and it clearly worked in may 2007 in a number of key areas. there is a big but though, and that is this cannot go on for ever. it is one thing safrificing running a campaign in a few wards to stop the BNP- but what of when they are challenging more widely? it is one thing, for example, asking the librals to run a crap campaign in a ward for one election which is clearly not going to have much impact, but for ever?

the only long term solution is a political, socialist alternative, to win people from fascism, coupled with militant antifascism to smash the BNP wherever they can be found


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 2, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> You said 'leaving Labour with a free run'. Implying that you wanted to take on Labour in that ward. I said that ward could be ignored and resources concentrated elsewhere. I do not think imposing a national policy which "takes on labour *and* the BNP (or 'everyone' as you put it)"  is a political answer to the tactical demands we now face as a movement. It's about realistic attempts to put alternative anti fascism into practice against Ideologically Correct (I.C.) policy which does not engage. Incidentally IC politics needs to be demonised far more than PC is
> 
> Do you want to realistically take on the BNP or not? If so, a tactical pov is necessary to halt and reverse their spreading, starting with areas where they are on the edge of a councillor or two. I am not saying this is a national policy, but certainly it is one  that is regionally applicable.



So voting labour and liberal then. And why not tory if they're the ones competing with the BNP?


----------



## JHE (Aug 2, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> militant antifascism to smash the BNP wherever they can be found



That'll keep them on their toes.


----------



## The Black Hand (Aug 2, 2007)

butchersapron said:
			
		

> So voting labour and liberal then. And why not tory if they're the ones competing with the BNP?



I was not saying vote social democratic or fascist - mine was the third way, the international third position


----------



## The Black Hand (Aug 2, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> tacitical voting is aleady organised between labour and liberals in a number of areas- and it clearly worked in may 2007 in a number of key areas. there is a big but though, and that is this cannot go on for ever. it is one thing safrificing running a campaign in a few wards to stop the BNP- but what of when they are challenging more widely? it is one thing, for example, asking the librals to run a crap campaign in a ward for one election which is clearly not going to have much impact, but for ever?
> 
> the only long term solution is a political, socialist alternative, to win people from fascism, coupled with militant antifascism to smash the BNP wherever they can be found



I was talking about those sorts of agendas, but doing it tactically and politically beyond the ward Labour/liberal deals. Where those sorts of deals are happening clearly 'we' could focus elsewhere, starting with; Barnsley and Rotherham. I will say that this sort of activity is down to the militants in that Yorkshire, North Notts region, to begin with at least. This is not rocket science, attempting to halt and reverse the BNP in areas they are targetting.


----------



## Geoff kerr-morg (Aug 8, 2007)

http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/display.var.1602897.0.farmer_cuts_bnp_ties_after_punchup.php


Farmer cuts BNP ties after punch-up
A FARMER who contested Tony Blair's old seat for the British National Party last month has severed all ties with the organisation after a punch-up with its treasurer, The Northern Echo can reveal.

Andrew Spence became the BNP's most successful candidate when he polled 2,494 votes in the Sedgefield by-election.

The result was hailed by the far right party as a breakthrough, but the jubilation has turned to recrimination following ugly scenes at the party's Red, White and Blue Family Festival, in Derbyshire, last weekend.

Last night, Mr Spence said he had thrown punches at party treasurer John Walker and head of publicity Mark Collett.

"There was a slight altercation because of a clash of personalities,"

said Mr Spence.

"The police were not involved, it was dealt with by the festival security."

He was allegedly escorted from the site by BNP security.


----------



## lostexpectation (Aug 8, 2007)

who are these guys?
http://www.thedailystar.net/2007/08/08/d70808011611.htm


----------



## JHE (Aug 8, 2007)

lostexpectation said:
			
		

> who are these guys?
> http://www.thedailystar.net/2007/08/08/d70808011611.htm



Bangladeshi Nationalist Party, I think.


----------



## The Black Hand (Aug 8, 2007)

Geoff kerr-morg said:
			
		

> http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/display.var.1602897.0.farmer_cuts_bnp_ties_after_punchup.php
> 
> 
> Farmer cuts BNP ties after punch-up
> ...



THis was a big front page Headline and story in the Northern Echo - it must have set them back a bit up here. Also it looks like he scrapped with that twat Collet - Spence isn't the only one who would like to punch his lights out.


----------



## Geoff kerr-morg (Aug 8, 2007)

The BNP's press officer, Dr Phil Edwards, would not comment about the punch-up or Mr Spence's resignation.

He said: "It is a private matter and it was nothing serious. I am not going to tell your disgusting newspaper anything."


----------



## JHE (Aug 8, 2007)

Geoff kerr-morg said:
			
		

> The BNP's press officer, Dr Phil Edwards, would not comment about the punch-up or Mr Spence's resignation.
> 
> He said: "It is a private matter and it was nothing serious. I am not going to tell your disgusting newspaper anything."



He is of the 'Alastair Campbell Hard Bastard Who Insults Journalists' school of spin doctoring - or thinks he is.  He just didn't get such a good job.

(He hates that "disgusting newspaper" because it turned down an electoral advert from the BNP, IIRC.)


----------



## Geoff kerr-morg (Aug 8, 2007)

Was it Dr Phil Edwards who did time for 'Glassing' a black guy for having a white girlfriend? I wonder what is Doctorate was in ?certainly not diplomacy.


----------



## JHE (Aug 8, 2007)

I haven't heard the 'glassing' story.

He claims to have a doctorate in one of the hard sciences.  I can't remember which.  Physics?  And I don't know if it's true, anyway.  'Phil Edwards' is a pseudonym, apparently.


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Aug 8, 2007)

the argument was over Spence's expenses, fuelled by the old amber nectar


----------



## audiotech (Aug 9, 2007)

Geoff kerr-morg said:
			
		

> Was it Dr Phil Edwards who did time for 'Glassing' a black guy for having a white girlfriend? I wonder what is Doctorate was in ?certainly not diplomacy.



That was the former National Organiser of the BNP, Richard Edmonds, who was convicted for his part in a bottle attack on a mixed race couple in a pub in East London 1993.


----------



## audiotech (Aug 9, 2007)

Larry O'Hara said:
			
		

> the argument was over Spence's expenses, fuelled by the old amber nectar



The plot thickens:



> Allegedly, after a bad row on the Friday night of the Red White and Blue, BNP Head of Publicity and chief dork Mark Collett spent twenty minutes on Saturday night goading and picking at Andrew Spence about money that was promised to him by the party over some damage that occurred to his car during the recent by-election campaign.
> http://lancasteruaf.blogspot.com/2007/08/truth-about-spence-and-rwb-punch-up.html


----------



## The Black Hand (Aug 10, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> That was the former National Organiser of the BNP, Richard Edmonds, who was convicted for his part in a bottle attack on a mixed race couple in a pub in East London 1993.



Indeed I was at his trial   ha ha ha


----------



## The Black Hand (Aug 11, 2007)

This is a good take on the RWB festival;


----------



## lights.out.london (Aug 11, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> This is a good take on the RWB festival;




Great spot. The bit at [approx] 40 secs sums it up.  

The beauty parade  And if _that_ is B&H's finest (2 mins - 2.14-ish secs)... lmao

Love the sound track.

Good work, Comrade.


----------



## The Black Hand (Aug 12, 2007)

A pleasure


----------



## The Black Hand (Aug 13, 2007)

http://www.thisissouthwales.co.uk/d...tentPK=17891143&folderPk=88499&pNodeId=161375

An election in Swansea in July - BNP polled 10% first time out on a very low turnout. This shows their marginality and their national news worthyness at the same time.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 13, 2007)

Keep working your way backwards through the results 10% form nothing is a good result -esp in Swansea. That's from a  regional paper btw not a national one. What is it going to take to drill this into you? They are doing very well, your tutting at people who poin this out is what...?

Don't skip the 15-30% though as you work through them.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Aug 13, 2007)

"They are doing very well" by what measure?


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 13, 2007)

By the measure of their and all far-right's parties previous votes - sustained and one-offs, local or nationally. Have a read of the thread, it's mentioned in passing.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 13, 2007)

Funny little thing via FOIA on the electoral commission site, added a few weeks back:

Third party campaigning & the BNP

(Bottom link)


----------



## Divisive Cotton (Aug 13, 2007)

butchersapron said:
			
		

> Funny little thing via FOIA on the electoral commission site, added a few weeks back:
> 
> Third party campaigning & the BNP
> 
> (Bottom link)



It's 80 pages mate!

Give us a summary in a paragraph


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 13, 2007)

Yep, meant little as in been kept quiet about, it's huge text though with little on each page and could be done in a few hours. Not done it myself. Always worth trying to see what FOIAs searchlight are up to.


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Aug 13, 2007)

butchersapron said:
			
		

> Funny little thing via FOIA on the electoral commission site, added a few weeks back:
> 
> Third party campaigning & the BNP
> 
> (Bottom link)



interesting that _Searchlight_ should pro-actively raise this themselves.  All in line with the fact, as I have personally found when I requested their files on me via Data Protection Legislation, _Searchlight _ignore the law, are immune from it, and brazenly flout it themselves.


----------



## The Black Hand (Aug 13, 2007)

butchersapron said:
			
		

> Keep working your way backwards through the results 10% form nothing is a good result -esp in Swansea. That's from a  regional paper btw not a national one. What is it going to take to drill this into you? They are doing very well, your tutting at people who poin this out is what...?
> 
> Don't skip the 15-30% though as you work through them.



TBH Butch - your rendition of YMCA has left you gasping for breath again 

I lived in Swansea for 4 years so you are prounouncing on the class composition of that area in a way you have not experienced. Actually in my estimation that 10% shows they are going to have the trouble overcoming the Labour party similar to the trouble they are having in Sunderland, where their vote has approx  halved steadily in 4 years.  10% from nothing for a national party, in effect that is what they are given their publicity, is not exceptional. It may not even deserve the label good, it depends on what effort they put in on the ground. Without that knowledge I think 'they did OK' is sifficient.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 13, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> TBH Butch - your rendition of YMCA has left you gasping for breath again
> 
> I lived in Swansea for 4 years so you are prounouncing on the class composition of that area in a way you have not experienced. Actually in my estimation that 10% shows they are going to have the trouble overcoming the Labour party similar to the trouble they are having in Sunderland, where their vote has approx  halved steadily in 4 years.  10% from nothing for a national party, in effect that is what they are given their publicity, is not exceptional. It may not even deserve the label good, it depends on what effort they put in on the ground. Without that knowledge I think 'they did OK' is sifficient.



What year did you live in Swansea attica? And do you think nothing has changed as regards class composition since then?

And sorry, 10% on an area where they didn't exist is good no matter which way that you try once more to spin a good BNP result into a bad one. And no, those sunderland figures didn't show that did they. 'OK', is what the left are rarely getting, 'ok' is now underperformming for the BNP.

Yes, i know your tired old analysis, nothing to worry about as labour and the tories will stop them. Vote Labour, vote tory.


----------



## The Black Hand (Aug 13, 2007)

Butch - no, you are misinterpreting what I am saying as per, you need a bit more dynamism in your thought. I am describing most accurately what is happening.

10% is OK. You are failing to consider their de facto national publicity machine. Based on such wide brand recognition 10% is not that good. OK is the most accurate description.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 13, 2007)

You're describing most accurately what is happening?


----------



## The Black Hand (Aug 14, 2007)

butchersapron said:
			
		

> You're describing most accurately what is happening?


You clearly have problems with comprehension. Must try harder.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Aug 14, 2007)

butchersapron said:
			
		

> By the measure of their and all far-right's parties previous votes - sustained and one-offs, local or nationally. Have a read of the thread, it's mentioned in passing.


Oh yes, by that measure they are doing very well.  But I do have to agree with attica, as well.  There is an element of, if this was any other political party voicing its one issue message in the way the BNP is now, given the 12 years of incessant campaigning by the Daily Mail, Tories, and new Labour etc  on asylum and immigration, then they would be doing a lot better I think.  The fascist history is still a great impediment to the BNP, isn't it?

This is an honest question.  Do people think the BNP mimicking of Front Nationale neo-Nazi tactics weakens neo-Nazis paramilitary organising.  And so in the long term weakens it as a last refuge for the bourgeoisie?


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 14, 2007)

ResistanceMP3 said:
			
		

> This is an honest question.  Do people think the BNP mimicking of Front Nationale neo-Nazi tactics weakens neo-Nazis paramilitary organising.  And so in the long term weakens it as a last refuge for the bourgeoisie?



What neo-Nazis paramilitary organising? It's not the 1930s, nor is it the 1970s. Electoral success has totally blown away any organised street based activity for the forseeable future - it's just not on the cards apart from a few loose canons. Trotsky's analysis appllied to the specific conditions of the time in which he was writing, conditions that no longer exist and that aren't coming back any time soon. The map needs changing -the BNP have managed to recognise this and have had some meaure of success with it. It's time the left did likewise. 

In todays conditions the danger isn't the system suffering collapse through class struggle and capital turning to fascists in their hour of need (and that's not only the oudated map that some on the left use but the BNPs too), but the far-right making the class struggle that much harder by coloninsing the political space of the working class. That's the danger, not concentration camps, not jackboots on the champs elysee but racialisation of social issues and this then becoming th default start point for independent woking class politics.

(marxism is the last refuge of the bourgeiosie anyway )


----------



## durruti02 (Aug 14, 2007)

ResistanceMP3 said:
			
		

> Oh yes, by that measure they are doing very well.  But I do have to agree with attica, as well.  There is an element of, if this was any other political party voicing its one issue message in the way the BNP is now, given the 12 years of incessant campaigning by the Daily Mail, Tories, and new Labour etc  on asylum and immigration, then they would be doing a lot better I think.  The fascist history is still a great impediment to the BNP, isn't it?



hi mate. I agree with much of this post but want to add that as most on the left see the BNP as nazi, the that  10 % of ordinary people should vote for this 'nazi' party is then a disaster, and not in any way to be belittled.

I agree that i think they would do better IF they genuinely could shake off their nazi past ... which is why it remains important to bring it up amongst a more general campaign.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Aug 14, 2007)

butchersapron said:
			
		

> What neo-Nazis paramilitary organising? It's not the 1930s, nor is it the 1970s. Electoral success has totally blown away any organised street based activity for the forseeable future - it's just not on the cards apart from a few loose canons. Trotsky's analysis appllied to the specific conditions of the time in which he was writing, conditions that no longer exist and that aren't coming back any time soon. The map needs changing -the BNP have managed to recognise this and have had some meaure of success with it. It's time the left did likewise.
> 
> In todays conditions the danger isn't the system suffering collapse through class struggle and capital turning to fascists in their hour of need (and that's not only the oudated map that some on the left use but the BNPs too), but the far-right making the class struggle that much harder by coloninsing the political space of the working class. That's the danger, not concentration camps, not jackboots on the champs elysee but racialisation of social issues and this then becoming th default start point for independent woking class politics.
> 
> )


Mimicking the Front Nationale means the BNP have turned away from paramilitary organising.  This was a pre-requisite of the electoral success, not a result of.  So my question was, h as the turning away from Parliamentary organising weakened the future prospects long-term?
I understand your answer to this question comes from your anarchist politics yes?  It isn’t a matter that revolution is ‘outdated’, you don’t believe in revolution, surely?is it also the case you don’t believe that capitalism could lead to “the common ruin of the contending classes”?
I’m not sure whether you are giving the BNP too much credit.  I am led to believe from what I’ve read from Griffin and others they still, like the other fascists, believe the BNP cannot achieve power.  That what the BNP is doing now is just building to be powerful enough at the time of “the coming Civil War”.  This does still seem to be the strategy of the hardcore.


> (marxism is the last refuge of the bourgeiosie anyway


I didn't know you subscribe to the illuminati theory.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 14, 2007)

ResistanceMP3 said:
			
		

> Mimicking the Front Nationale means the BNP have turned away from paramilitary organising.  This was a pre-requisite of the electoral success, not a result of.  So my question was, h as the turning away from Parliamentary organising weakened the future prospects long-term?
> I understand your answer to this question comes from your anarchist politics yes?  It isn’t a matter that revolution is ‘outdated’, you don’t believe in revolution, surely?is it also the case you don’t believe that capitalism could lead to “the common ruin of the contending classes”?
> I’m not sure whether you are giving the BNP too much credit.  I am led to believe from what I’ve read from Griffin and others they still, like the other fascists, believe the BNP cannot achieve power.  That what the BNP is doing now is just building to be powerful enough at the time of “the coming Civil War”.  This does still seem to be the strategy of the hardcore.
> I didn't know you subscribe to the illuminati theory.



It might well have been a pre-requisite, the results have now put if off the agenda for the forseeable future. That's my point. 

The next question, they have no prospects of taking power, they have the chance to get some influence and that's it - but criucailly in area trhat we need to win and get influence in ourselves. They're well on the way to doing that. If you measure their succes by achieving power you're using the wrong scale and will get the wrong answer back. Don't measure it by 100% meaure it by 15-25%.

Not sure what you mean by the next bit about revolution and the manifesto, so i'll leavr it for you clarify/expand...

That's a Paul Mattick allusion by the way, nothing conspiracy-loon about me


----------



## TremulousTetra (Aug 14, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> hi mate. I agree with much of this post but want to add that as most on the left see the BNP as nazi, the that  10 % of ordinary people should vote for this 'nazi' party is then a disaster, and not in any way to be belittled.
> 
> I agree that i think they would do better IF they genuinely could shake off their nazi past ... which is why it remains important to bring it up amongst a more general campaign.


hi dur
Sorry, I wasn’t intending to appear like I was belittling the threat of a fascist parties.  I just think some people on here over exaggerate.what butchers said was fair, they are doing well compared to 20 years ago.  But if you over indulge in this and say they are doing well period, then you can appear to be shouting Woolf.  All parties to the right of the Conservative Party have what?  About 100 councillors out of 10,000?  This is a problem, but it isn’t an insurmountable problem for the working class.  And comparatively are they doing as well As Front Nationale?  The working class there has shown that they can deal with a far more entrenched fascist threat.

On the issue of people voting BNP.  I’m not saying you’re saying this, but just to be clear, I do not think the 10% who voted BNP are fascist.  Something like 90% of the BNP voters I have spoken to refuse to believe the BNP are fascist,or recognize they are fascist and only vote for them as a protest vote, and say if they did believe the BNP were fascist or posed a real threat, they wouldn’t vote for them.


----------



## durruti02 (Aug 15, 2007)

ResistanceMP3 said:
			
		

> hi dur
> Sorry, I wasn’t intending to appear like I was belittling the threat of a fascist parties.  I just think some people on here over exaggerate.what butchers said was fair, they are doing well compared to 20 years ago.  But if you over indulge in this and say they are doing well period, then you can appear to be shouting Woolf.  All parties to the right of the Conservative Party have what?  About 100 councillors out of 10,000?  This is a problem, but it isn’t an insurmountable problem for the working class.  And comparatively are they doing as well As Front Nationale?  The working class there has shown that they can deal with a far more entrenched fascist threat.
> 
> On the issue of people voting BNP.  I’m not saying you’re saying this, but just to be clear, I do not think the 10% who voted BNP are fascist.  Something like 90% of the BNP voters I have spoken to refuse to believe the BNP are fascist,or recognize they are fascist and only vote for them as a protest vote, and say if they did believe the BNP were fascist or posed a real threat, they wouldn’t vote for them.



Fair play mate 

2 points 

1) yes we should not overplay but what IS significant is that it appears that where the BNP are winning is precisely where WE should be winnning. That if you strip out died in the wool tories / labour etc etc then those 15%s the BNP are getting becomes a larger figure

2) the issue for voters NOT seeing them as fascist is also a problem when most of those people will have seen a leaflet from UAF/ANL etc, probably with a pic of Tyndal as nazi, and detailing the nazi past of many  BNP, and YET people do not accept they are fascist. What I worry is that people will get drawn into genuine fascism thru the bnp.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Aug 16, 2007)

butchersapron said:
			
		

> > It might well have been a pre-requisite, the results have now put if off the agenda for the forseeable future. That's my point.
> 
> 
> yes you are right, it is off the agenda for the foreseeable future, but how far is the foreseeable future?  History shows the speed at which things can change can leave your head reeling.  Lenin said there would never be a revolution in his lifetime, but only fools make predictions!
> ...


----------



## The Black Hand (Aug 19, 2007)

*Nick Griffin On Larry O'Hara*

From the latest BNP chairmans blog 

A copy of the latest ‘Notes From the Borderland’ arrives through the post. This is roughly an annual magazine, produced by a hardcore, but generally honest (though often confused!) leftist/green named Larry O’Hara. A good two-thirds of it is always taken up with the left-wing version of conspiracy mania (everything’s the work of CIA and MI5 spooks) but the rest contains a few good points.

O’Hara regards himself as diametrically opposed to the BNP, though the truth is that if he only work out that mass immigration is more than anything else a capitalist ‘conspiracy’ to import cheap labour and extra consumers, he’d actually make quite a useful recruit.

I am reliably informed that he is an avid reader of my articles, and he has certainly taken careful note of what is being written and done within the BNP to move it from being a one-man dictatorship into a cadre-based movement. As he writes:

“Creating ideologically committed BNP members, thereby guarding against swamping by Tory populists, is behind the recent changes in BNP membership structure. Griffin doesn’t want a party full of Tory populists because BNP strategy is predicated on seizing opportunities that may be provided by economic and social collapse, prior to which organisational cohesion is more important than popular support. If such integrity is not maintained then the ‘unique selling point’ distinguishing the BNP from right-wing Tories will have collapsed. While Griffin’s critics on the right think this has already happened, as somebody who has been following his career for 25 years I can assure you it hasn’t.”

Indeed! And what neither he nor anyone else has been told up until now is that the move to put the party in the hands of a Voting Membership activist elite is only just beginning, and due to take several steps further forward this Autumn. The next stage will be centred on three points:....


----------



## The Black Hand (Aug 19, 2007)

Griffin admits on his blog that he was in  a punch up causing sore knuckles "two weeks ago in Sussex", the post was dated 14th March. So does anybody know to what this refers? 

I think I will start a fund you can donate too. I will regularly update the amount publically as it gets ever higher.

The WINNER gets whatever has been collected by the point in time the twatting occurs, the money goes to whoever (with proof) twats Nick Griffin   What d'ya think?


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Aug 19, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> From the latest BNP chairmans blog
> 
> A copy of the latest ‘Notes From the Borderland’ arrives through the post. This is roughly an annual magazine, produced by a hardcore, but generally honest (though often confused!) leftist/green named Larry O’Hara. A good two-thirds of it is always taken up with the left-wing version of conspiracy mania (everything’s the work of CIA and MI5 spooks) but the rest contains a few good points.
> 
> ...



Why should this quote surprise you?  As a politician Griffin is using an external source  to try & win an internal BNP argument, and along the way making a mischievous point concerning a long-term opponent like myself.  Neither Griffin (or you) quotes what I said elsewhere on the _Notes From the Borderland_ page (p.17/issue 8) that the Griffin regime "combines electoral populism with post-modern neo-fascism" and that he wants to "recruit and retain members...in part among the ranks of hardened fascists", or indeed my statement next page that "while BNP strategy cannot be reduced to thuggery, the gravitational pull towards Redwatch that affects key members is no accident" (p.18).  Nor indeed did Griffin quote the rather damning (for the BNP among others) update article on the Lecomber murder plot (p.3-4), stating _inter alia_ that Griffin's reaction to a recent assault by Lecomber on Eddie Butler was "so weak it makes you wonder what hold Lecomber has on Griffin" (p.4).  But, hey, what do I know?


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Aug 19, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> Griffin admits on his blog that he was in  a punch up causing sore knuckles "two weeks ago in Sussex", the post was dated 14th March. So does anybody know to what this refers?



Yes  



> I think I will start a fund you can donate too. I will regularly update the amount publically as it gets ever higher.
> 
> The WINNER gets whatever has been collected by the point in time the twatting occurs, the money goes to whoever (with proof) twats Nick Griffin   What d'ya think?



I think that to advocate on a public bulletin-board that you will pay money to third parties to beat anyone up, even a fascist, is, shall we say, unwise, on a number of levels.


----------



## The Black Hand (Aug 19, 2007)

Larry O'Hara said:
			
		

> Why should this quote surprise you?  As a politician Griffin is using an external source  to try & win an internal BNP argument, and along the way making a mischievous point concerning a long-term opponent like myself.  Neither Griffin (or you) quotes what I said elsewhere on the _Notes From the Borderland_ page (p.17/issue 8) that the Griffin regime "combines electoral populism with post-modern neo-fascism" and that he wants to "recruit and retain members...in part among the ranks of hardened fascists", or indeed my statement next page that "while BNP strategy cannot be reduced to thuggery, the gravitational pull towards Redwatch that affects key members is no accident" (p.18).  Nor indeed did Griffin quote the rather damning (for the BNP among others) update article on the Lecomber murder plot (p.3-4), stating _inter alia_ that Griffin's reaction to a recent assault by Lecomber on Eddie Butler was "so weak it makes you wonder what hold Lecomber has on Griffin" (p.4).  But, hey, what do I know?



I was surprised that you had not quoted Griffin publicly.

I haven't quoted what else you have said (so far) because I haven't found it necessary.


----------



## The Black Hand (Aug 19, 2007)

Larry O'Hara said:
			
		

> A) Yes
> 
> B) I think that to advocate on a public bulletin-board that you will pay money to third parties to beat anyone up, even a fascist, is, shall we say, unwise, on a number of levels.



A) DO tell then, or is it in the latest issue of Borderland and you want us to pay for it?

B) "I think I will start a fund" does not mean that I have done it or will do it. 
I think it is unwise to say something about something which doesn't exist.


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Aug 19, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> I was surprised that you had not quoted Griffin publicly.



Do you think I'm so egotistical I need to reproduce everything everybody says about me??





> I haven't quoted what else you have said (so far) because I haven't found it necessary.



By not doing so, you (perhaps inadvertently) convey to Urban 75 a potentially incorrect sense of my views--which I have had to correct.  For me, context is always necessary.


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Aug 19, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> A) DO tell then, or is it in the latest issue of Borderland and you want us to pay for it?



I'm not an animal jumping through hoops, whether provided by you or anybody else.  I will "tell" what I feel like, where & when I feel like it.  End of.



> B) "I think I will start a fund" does not mean that I have done it or will do it. I think it is unwise to say something about something which doesn't exist.



You asked for an opinion, I gave you one.  It is for others viewing this to decide on how consistent your response is with your original post.  Or how adequately you have countered my opinion.


----------



## The Black Hand (Aug 19, 2007)

Larry O'Hara said:
			
		

> Do you think I'm so egotistical I need to reproduce everything everybody says about me??
> 
> By not doing so, you (perhaps inadvertently) convey to Urban 75 a potentially incorrect sense of my views--which I have had to correct.  For me, context is always necessary.



By all means feel free to add your other comments to give a comprehensive view of your perspective.

I like context, I am a stickler for detail


----------



## The Black Hand (Aug 19, 2007)

Larry O'Hara said:
			
		

> I'm not an animal jumping through hoops, whether provided by you or anybody else.  I will "tell" what I feel like, where & when I feel like it.  End of.
> 
> You asked for an opinion, I gave you one.  It is for others viewing this to decide on how consistent your response is with your original post.  Or how adequately you have countered my opinion.



A) Indeed you shall. Quite clearly you don't want to tell us now, even though this is a public debating forum where requests for information are usually supplied.

B) Indeed I did. No, it is not for others to decide how 'consistent my response is with my original post'. The consistency is in my orginal post, it was a post which floated an idea, not one which suggested that idea had already got off the ground. Your misreading of that post is however out there for others to see.


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Aug 19, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> A) Indeed you shall. Quite clearly you don't want to tell us now, even though this is a public debating forum where requests for information are usually supplied.



I don't do hoops, period!



> The consistency is in my orginal post, it was a post which floated an idea, not one which suggested that idea had already got off the ground. Your misreading of that post is however out there for others to see.



Or not.  I commented on your advocacy, as in "I think I will start a fund", I did not say it had been started--why you should then misrepresent my response is something for the experts...


----------



## The Black Hand (Aug 19, 2007)

Larry O'Hara said:
			
		

> I don't do hoops, period!
> 
> Or not.



I don't do hoops either, perhaps we should start a magazine together  

Definately maybe.


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Aug 19, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> I don't do hoops either, perhaps we should start a magazine together
> 
> Definately maybe.



I already have one: how about you??


----------



## The Black Hand (Aug 19, 2007)

Larry O'Hara said:
			
		

> I commented on your advocacy, as in "I think I will start a fund", I did not say it had been started--why you should then misrepresent my response is something for the experts...



You said  that 'I advocated paying money to people who beat up a fascist' 

Here is your quote;

to "advocate on a public bulletin-board that you will pay money to third parties to beat anyone up, even a fascist, is, shall we say, unwise, on a number of levels."

To me this suggests that it is decided that I will pay money to somebody to beat up a fascist, and that it is unwise for me to say this publically. 

I do not think there is any other reasonable interpretation of your quote.

Anyway, I am not really interested in discussion of the semantics of this case so I am going to end it here. THE END. NO MORE. NEVER. EVER. FULL STOP.


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Aug 19, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> Griffin admits on his blog that he was in  a punch up causing sore knuckles "two weeks ago in Sussex", the post was dated 14th March. So does anybody know to what this refers?
> 
> I think I will start a fund you can donate too. I will regularly update the amount publically as it gets ever higher.
> 
> The WINNER gets whatever has been collected by the point in time the twatting occurs, the money goes to whoever (with proof) twats Nick Griffin   What d'ya think?



Just to remind you of what you said, as it seems you have forgotten, judging by your attempt to misrepresent my comments on it.


----------



## The Black Hand (Aug 19, 2007)

Larry O'Hara said:
			
		

> I already have one: how about you??



It has been largely written for some time, and the shadow it will cast over the movement will indeed be large   I know you're on the edge of your seat Larry, desperate to get your hands on the brilliance of our new magazine. DO you want an invite to the launch?


----------



## The Black Hand (Aug 19, 2007)

Larry O'Hara said:
			
		

> Just to remind you of what you said, as it seems you have forgotten, judging by your attempt to misrepresent my comments on it.



I know what I said, "I think" is a thought, and thoughts can change Larry. I haven't misrepresented anything. Carry on squirming all you like but you are impaling yourself further onto the hook.


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Aug 19, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> It has been largely written for some time, and the shadow it will cast over the movement will indeed be large   I know you're on the edge of your seat Larry, desperate to get your hands on the brilliance of our new magazine. DO you want an invite to the launch?



Why not?  I do not wish you (or it) ill at all--the more the merrier...If it fits my schedule I'd be happy to attend!  In fact if it were called "_The Shadow_"  that would be great--although on reflection Adam Busby's magazine was called _The Shadow_, so maybe not...What is the title by the way?


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Aug 19, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> I know what I said, "I think" is a thought, and thoughts can change Larry. I haven't misrepresented anything. Carry on squirming all you like but you are impaling yourself further onto the hook.


----------



## JimPage (Aug 21, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> http://www.thisissouthwales.co.uk/d...tentPK=17891143&folderPk=88499&pNodeId=161375
> 
> An election in Swansea in July - BNP polled 10% first time out on a very low turnout. This shows their marginality and their national news worthyness at the same time.



But as a comparison as to where the left are- Solidarity managed a mere 1.2%in a by eleciton up here in Aberdeen last week. Even 10% is streets ahead of where the left is in many places

Forthcoming by election candidates in Liverpool, Rossendale, Epping Forest, York, Nuneaton and Whitehaven. Zero socialist canddiated against them ,anywhere


----------



## JimPage (Aug 21, 2007)

ResistanceMP3 said:
			
		

> hi dur
> *Sorry, I wasn’t intending to appear like I was belittling the threat of a fascist parties.  I just think some people on here over exaggerate.what butchers said was fair, they are doing well compared to 20 years ago. *
> 
> I think the fair comparison is against 2001, when they had 0 councillors.
> ...



And that is a huge problem- and if the bnp neither sound, act, speak, look or feel fascist- we are left with quoting Trotsky on Fascism at them. The word fascism has been overused by the left as a whole to apply to anyone left of the SWP- no wonder people dont recognise a fascist when one comes along


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Aug 21, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> But as a comparison as to where the left are- Solidarity managed a mere 1.2%in a by eleciton up here in Aberdeen last week. Even 10% is streets ahead of where the left is in many places
> 
> Forthcoming by election candidates in Liverpool, Rossendale, Epping Forest, York, Nuneaton and Whitehaven. Zero socialist canddiated against them ,anywhere



I agree with you on the severity of the problem the BNP pose for anti-fascists.  But as you will have already realised, there are some people on here who will not be convinced by any amount of evidence, and are self-deluded beyond all reason, claiming to know something about a serious subject (the BNP) they know nothing about.  Rational argument will not convince them of anything.


----------



## The Black Hand (Aug 21, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> But as a comparison as to where the left are- Solidarity managed a mere 1.2%in a by eleciton up here in Aberdeen last week. Even 10% is streets ahead of where the left is in many places
> 
> Forthcoming by election candidates in Liverpool, Rossendale, Epping Forest, York, Nuneaton and Whitehaven. Zero socialist canddiated against them ,anywhere



That does not mean there are no socialists. Or marxists and/or anarchists for that matter. It also assumes that the 'public' will not generate its' own more egalitarian politics in a crisis situation from its own repertoire of political experience.


----------



## The Black Hand (Aug 21, 2007)

Larry O'Hara said:
			
		

> I agree with you on the severity of the problem the BNP pose for anti-fascists.  But as you will have already realised, there are some people on here who will not be convinced by any amount of evidence, and are self-deluded beyond all reason, claiming to know something about a serious subject (the BNP) they know nothing about.  Rational argument will not convince them of anything.



Those who reflect BNP writings are not creating anti fascism though Larry, as as for rational argument do me a favour. RA/IWCA/ and you also over exaggerate the problem - it is still not a national problem for example.... That is not denying that the BNP exist in a lot of places, but there lots of others where politically they do not. I see what Griffin is doing but there are also tremendous political problems for the BNP, there are lots of people/things in their way. At the minute they are a very very small party (compared to Europe where there are many far larger far right parties without the exicitable tone of UK anti fascists), they have gone from totally irrelevant to completely marginal, and so to over play their chances, crying wolf so to speak, is not serious politics.

It is also wrong to try to generate a wider politics off theory formulated in the anti fascist sphere, it simply isn't transferrable.


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Aug 21, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> Those who reflect BNP writings are not creating anti fascism though Larry,



I do hope you're not presuming to imply that is what I do, or have ever done.



> as for rational argument do me a favour. RA/IWCA/ and you also over exaggerate the problem - it is still not a national problem for example.... That is not denying that the BNP exist in a lot of places, but there lots of others where politically they do not.



What is known as a 'straw man' argument--you impute to others views they do not hold, and then criticise them for such.  The fact is, all the BNP has to do is put up a stuck pig in most places, and they get 10% of the vote--a figure the Last Century Left would die for.



> I see what Griffin is doing but there are also tremendous political problems for the BNP, there are lots of people/things in their way. At the minute they are a very very small party (compared to Europe where there are many far larger far right parties without the exicitable tone of UK anti fascists),



They are small indeed--but sadly bigger than any far left party, by a considerable margin.  



> they have gone from totally irrelevant to completely marginal, and so to over play their chances, crying wolf so to speak, is not serious politics.



Yet another straw man--but then, if it makes you happy to assert such baseless claims, feel free.



> It is also wrong to try to generate a wider politics off theory formulated in the anti fascist sphere, it simply isn't transferrable.



Who has done that?  Certainly not me, yet that's the straw man implication yet again.  And so on...


----------



## The Black Hand (Aug 21, 2007)

I was not playing that old song 'Only You' Larry so please calm down you excitable soul


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Aug 21, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> I was not playing that old song 'Only You' Larry so please calm down you excitable soul



Given that you came out with such drivel directly below a reproduction of my post, any reasonable person would be entitled to conclude you were writing about me.  There again.....


----------



## The Black Hand (Aug 21, 2007)

Larry O'Hara said:
			
		

> Given that you came out with such drivel directly below a reproduction of my post, any reasonable person would be entitled to conclude you were writing about me.  There again.....



There you go again "the exicitable tone of UK anti fascists" does apply to you then. I was right.


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Aug 21, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> There you go again "the exicitable tone of UK anti fascists" does apply to you then. I was right.



I rest my case.


----------



## The Black Hand (Aug 21, 2007)

You retire easily. There's much to do...


----------



## JimPage (Aug 25, 2007)

Larry O'Hara said:
			
		

> I agree with you on the severity of the problem the BNP pose for anti-fascists.  But as you will have already realised, there are some people on here who will not be convinced by any amount of evidence, and are self-deluded beyond all reason, claiming to know something about a serious subject (the BNP) they know nothing about.  Rational argument will not convince them of anything.



To be honest rational arguement is needed- its all we have. The penny will drop one day...


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## The Black Hand (Aug 25, 2007)

here's some then Jim. 

Larry Said 

"The fact is, all the BNP has to do is put up a stuck pig in most places, and they get 10% of the vote--a figure the Last Century Left would die for."  yes, and?  The old Left is not the one to compare the vote with. I and many others do not view the vote as that important nor interesting as it is easily explainable. Bourgeois elections are not that interesting really, and certainly have little, if anything to do with authentic democracy. You would be better off comparing the new social movement, its politics and chances, with the BNP. But then you would not be comparing 'like for like' and analysis would get more difficult.

The BNP have a position Gramsci would call 'national popular', they hold it NOT because of their capability, but because of who they are, the ideological descendants of the fascists. The media cover fascism big style because of the offensive nature of fascism for the capitalist status quo. In short, the BNP are a paper tiger at present.


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## butchersapron (Aug 25, 2007)

You've just spent the majority of this thread arguing that the old left would take care of things. Some consistency please.

You so out of your depth.


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## Larry O'Hara (Aug 25, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> here's some then Jim.
> 
> Larry Said
> 
> "The fact is, all the BNP has to do is put up a stuck pig in most places, and they get 10% of the vote--a figure the Last Century Left would die for."  yes, and?  The old Left is not the one to compare the vote with. I and many others do not view the vote as that important nor interesting as it is easily explainable. Bourgeois elections are not that interesting really, and certainly have little, if anything to do with authentic democracy.



The question is not what they have to do with 'authentic democracy' but whether they can help fascists build their strength.  Fascists do not even need a majority to seize power, as Weimar showed.  No doubt the KPD were similarly disinterested in bourgeois elections--a mistake they were deprived of the chance to rectify, from within a concentration camp.



> You would be better off comparing the new social movement, its politics and chances, with the BNP.



What 'new social movement'?  Where is it, have we missed something?



> The BNP have a position Gramsci would call 'national popular', they hold it NOT because of their capability, but because of who they are, the ideological descendants of the fascists.



If you deigned to sully your pristine theses with examination of reality, you would find that the BNP are practising 'Gramscism of the Right', as illustrated yet again in Griffins article on 'Building Nationalist Strongholds' in this month's _Identity_.  But I forgot, you don't 'do' evidence do you--far easier to make _ex cathedra _pronouncements devoid of reference to such.  No doubt something you have never read, nor are likely to, will be dismissed as 'irrelevant', 'unhelpful', 'unnecessary', or I will be accused of talking up fascists because I dare to examine the reality of what they're up to, rather than rehash Otto Ruhle in a politically homeopathic way.



> The media cover fascism big style because of the offensive nature of fascism for the capitalist status quo. In short, the BNP are a paper tiger at present.



How the second vacuous sentence follows from the first, only you knows.  And so on.  As I said, waste of time.


----------



## The Black Hand (Aug 25, 2007)

butchersapron said:
			
		

> You've just spent the majority of this thread arguing that the old left would take care of things. Some consistency please.
> 
> You so out of your depth.



1. I never did. 

2. It is you who are drowning coz you are so out of your depth.


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## The Black Hand (Aug 25, 2007)

Quote:
The BNP have a position Gramsci would call 'national popular', they hold it NOT because of their capability, but because of who they are, the ideological descendants of the fascists.  


Larry - If you deigned to sully your pristine theses with examination of reality, you would find that the BNP are practising 'Gramscism of the Right', as illustrated yet again in Griffins article on 'Building Nationalist Strongholds' in this month's Identity. But I forgot, you don't 'do' evidence do you--far easier to make ex cathedra pronouncements devoid of reference to such. No doubt something you have never read, nor are likely to, will be dismissed as 'irrelevant', 'unhelpful', 'unnecessary', or I will be accused of talking up fascists because I dare to examine the reality of what they're up to, rather than rehash Otto Ruhle in a politically homeopathic way.

REPLY - I have read it and I am not bothered by their political practice. I said this; The BNP have a position Gramsci would call 'national popular', they hold it NOT because of their capability, but because of who they are, the ideological descendants of the fascists.  And it's true. The BNP have done fekk all that deserves their level of vote.


Quote:
The media cover fascism big style because of the offensive nature of fascism for the capitalist status quo. In short, the BNP are a paper tiger at present.  


How the second vacuous sentence follows from the first, only you knows. And so on. As I said, waste of time. 

 Larry - it is clear that it is a waste of time arguing with you cos you cannot cope with people who may disagree. Get real, live with it, deal with it, the real world is full of disagreements. You have not proved your case sufficiently. If I had read a seriously good political science article by you then you may convince me with the thoroughness of your research, the evidence and the analysis. However, you have not done so yet, or done so and made it available.

Butchers, rather than do any serious research of his own has decided to piggyback on everybody elses


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## Larry O'Hara (Aug 25, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> Quote:
> The BNP have a position Gramsci would call 'national popular', they hold it NOT because of their capability, but because of who they are, the ideological descendants of the fascists.
> 
> 
> ...



1) I do not believe for one minute you have read Griffin's article--I bet you cannot produce one quote from it.  You say you are "not bothered" by the political practice of fascists--in which case, why set yourself up as somebody who has any knowledge or interest in this subject?  Much like a plumber who says "I'm not bothered about what's wrong with your drains, but pay me anyway".  Ludicrous.

2) You have the impertinence to say I have produced nothing of value on this topic--perhaps you might care to enumerate your detailed criticisms of my PhD.  Which is vailable, on inter-library loan--ever heard of it??

and so on--evidence-free, except for now you seem to be claiming to have read sources I think you haven't.  Some academic credentials, eh.


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## butchersapron (Aug 25, 2007)

Attica -what gaps are missing in my research? What need i have doine to be taken seriously on this issue beyond my posts?


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## Larry O'Hara (Aug 25, 2007)

Attica, I am still waiting for you to substantiate the claim you have read Griffin's article in Identity--by giving a precise (page-referenced) quote.  If you cannot do that (and if you can I unreservedly apologise in advance), then you have committed a fundamental error that would rightly bar you from any discussion, however pretentious, concerning academic standards.  This wouldn't even be plagiarism, but in fact perjury--prove me wrong, why don't you??


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## butchersapron (Aug 25, 2007)

No post on monday as well...oh fear..


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## Larry O'Hara (Aug 25, 2007)

butchersapron said:
			
		

> No post on monday as well...oh fear..



Have I missed something?  Or are you saying he won't get it in the post on Monday?  As it happens, that article is not on-line to my knowledge, and I get the impression he (therefore) hasn't read it, but is claiming nonetheless to have done so.  What do you think?


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## butchersapron (Aug 25, 2007)

He ain't read it, and even ordering it now won't get it here till tuesday at the very earliest..


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## Larry O'Hara (Aug 25, 2007)

butchersapron said:
			
		

> He ain't read it, and even ordering it now won't get it here till tuesday at the very earliest..



that's what I thought you meant!   .  And it really would be a shame if he compromised his personal security in order to retrospectively prove a point here--because (as you will know having read _NFB_ 8, which I don't think Attica has despite also claiming to), somebody who complained to the BNP internet site had their details passed to Redwatch.


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## MANCS_MURPH (Aug 25, 2007)

I am reminded of the incident during the American Civil War when Union General Burnside and his staff were debating how deep a ford through a river was. Could he move hs army across it? The officers were hotly argueing about how deep it was, from a distance, when they heard a shout. A young officer, George Armstrong Custer, had ridden his horse into the middle of the ford, the water level reaching to the knees of the horse.

"This is how deep the water is General".

The moral??........You tell me!


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## Larry O'Hara (Aug 26, 2007)

MANCS_MURPH said:
			
		

> I am reminded of the incident during the American Civil War when Union General Burnside and his staff were debating how deep a ford through a river was. Could he move hs army across it? The officers were hotly argueing about how deep it was, from a distance, when they heard a shout. A young officer, George Armstrong Custer, had ridden his horse into the middle of the ford, the water level reaching to the knees of the horse.
> 
> "This is how deep the water is General".
> 
> The moral??........You tell me!



First off, leaving aside Custer's later career, he provided an answer to the question by producing evidence (riding into the water).

Secondly, the title of this thread is about Griffin & BNP strategy.  Therefore, it is not irrelevant to ask that contributors here have at least a passing knowledge of the topic.

Third, somebody (Attica) who knows nothing about the topic is on here variously
a) pretending that he does
b) dismissing arguments from others because they do not carry academic credibility--I kid you not--read it & find out
c) claiming that he doesn't need to read exactly what the BNP (& Griffin) have to say about their own strategy
d) claiming, nonetheless, to have read said strategic articles (specifically one in the August_ Identity_) nonetheless--a claim I very much doubt, and await evidence for.

If fascism was irrelevant & of no political significance, none of this might matter (perhaps) other than as an illustration of how vainglorious know-nothings operate.  However, the potential threat of fascism is real & does matter, and to misrepresent the nature of this threat is a dangerous thing to do.  Or if it isn't, you tell me?


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Aug 26, 2007)

No response yet from Attica, despite him posting on other threads since I raised the question in Post 843, of him claiming to have read something he hasn't.  And this from somebody who not only claims omniscience, but attacks others for not adhering to 'Political Science' standards in their writings, and has had a go at me because scum have prevented me getting my PhD published.  Marvellous!


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## MANCS_MURPH (Aug 26, 2007)

Larry O'Hara said:
			
		

> However, the potential threat of fascism is real & does matter, and to misrepresent the nature of this threat is a dangerous thing to do.  Or if it isn't, you tell me?



This is the point I was trying to make. If fascism is a threat (it is) then don't waste time discussing it......fight it!

If the BNP intend to thrive by setting up local community groups (projects or whatever) then oppose them by dealing more effectively with the problems of that community than the BNP can/do.

If the labour Party are  guilty of......whatever.........oppose them. DO NOT vote for them on the grounds that this is the only way to keep out the BNP. Perhaps if this led to a few BNP councillors it wouldn't be too bad.

I once argued with my shop steward, I worked for the local council, that we were better off with a TORY council as an employer because the Labour council were B*****d employers but the union wouldn't stand up to them because they were all local party members. At least with a B*****d Tory council the union would fight them. 

Consider this, the Labour party took the UK into Iraq and Afghanistan, not the BNP.

"Philosophers have only tried to interpret the world, the point however, is to change it"


----------



## The Black Hand (Aug 26, 2007)

MANCS_MURPH said:
			
		

> This is the point I was trying to make. If fascism is a threat (it is) then don't waste time discussing it......fight it!
> 
> If the BNP intend to thrive by setting up local community groups (projects or whatever) then oppose them by dealing more effectively with the problems of that community than the BNP can/do.
> 
> ...



Well said that man.


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## butchersapron (Aug 26, 2007)

Attcia eyes up a potential convert, hides his own posts on this thread that often (amongst many many contradictory other things) argue the exact opposite.


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## The Black Hand (Aug 26, 2007)

Larry O'Hara said:
			
		

> No response yet from Attica, despite him posting on other threads since I raised the question in Post 843, of him claiming to have read something he hasn't.  And this from somebody who not only claims omniscience, but attacks others for not adhering to 'Political Science' standards in their writings, and has had a go at me because scum have prevented me getting my PhD published.  Marvellous!



It is nice to see that you are waiting with baited breath for my response Larry. I must be the most in demand anarchist in britain at the moment, as my speaking dates are fully booked till next year and I am sorting one out in Leeds already 

There's famous song which goes 'Only fools rush in' and I have said before to other people I do not mind keeping fools waiting   but you do not come into this bracket Larry, you have a special one all of your own (and no I am not going to tell you what it is) 

I have never claimed omniscience, despite how much I would like to approach it  And have you rewritten your PhD for publication? If you have send me it an email, I will have a look, pass it on and I will help you publish it. No, I am not kidding.


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## The Black Hand (Aug 26, 2007)

butchersapron said:
			
		

> Attcia eyes up a potential convert, hides his own posts on this thread that often (amongst many many contradictory other things) argue the exact opposite.



Get real you lemon. I talk up many many people on this and many other websites. Unlike the recruiting Left I think that sort of tired neo Leninism is past it's sell by date, I prefer constituative class struggle which you do not do, do you.


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## The Black Hand (Aug 26, 2007)

butchersapron said:
			
		

> Attcia eyes up a potential convert, hides his own posts on this thread that often (amongst many many contradictory other things) argue the exact opposite.



Contradictions are a good thing, they work themselves out in practice. You are chasing the moon if you think a pure theory can be worked out in advance of class struggle. And that is what you do cos your interventions are always talk and no action on the web.


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## butchersapron (Aug 26, 2007)

Saying one thing then the opposite is not a good thing. It's a political liability and a license to do and say anything with no responsibility or comeback. See Healy. And see why no one listens to you anymore.


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## butchersapron (Aug 26, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> Get real you lemon. I talk up many many people on this and many other websites. Unlike the recruiting Left I think that sort of tired neo Leninism is past it's sell by date, I prefer constituative class struggle which you do not do, do you.



Nah, i hate that shit.


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## JHE (Aug 26, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> I prefer constituative class struggle



You should get that sorted out, mate.


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## The Black Hand (Aug 26, 2007)

Larry O'Hara said:
			
		

> 1) I do not believe for one minute you have read Griffin's article--I bet you cannot produce one quote from it.  You say you are "not bothered" by the political practice of fascists--in which case, why set yourself up as somebody who has any knowledge or interest in this subject?  Much like a plumber who says "I'm not bothered about what's wrong with your drains, but pay me anyway".  Ludicrous.
> 
> 2) You have the impertinence to say I have produced nothing of value on this topic--perhaps you might care to enumerate your detailed criticisms of my PhD.  Which is vailable, on inter-library loan--ever heard of it??
> 
> and so on--evidence-free, except for now you seem to be claiming to have read sources I think you haven't.  Some academic credentials, eh.



Larry said this - "Fascists do not even need a majority to seize power, as Weimar showed." But that was many moons ago and a completely different state, there is no way that Weimar can be compared to 20th century UK.

Larry sed "the BNP are practising _'Gramscism of the Right'_, as illustrated yet again in _Griffins article _on 'Building Nationalist Strongholds' in this month's Identity."

In reply I said "I have read it and I am not bothered by their political practice. I said this; The BNP have a position Gramsci would call 'national popular', they hold it NOT because of their capability, but because of who they are, the ideological descendants of the fascists. And it's true. The BNP have done fekk all that deserves their level of vote."

The 'it' I was referring to is the first one of the 2 constructions in your sentance I have italicised, you are right I haven't read Griffins latest article in Identity and I am still not bothered. 

What I do know is that the BNP are really only just beginning in terms of strategy and size, if they are trying to build a Gramscianism of the right their attempts at cultural leadership so far are shite. Take the debacle of 'Solidarity' - the fascist 'trade union', a mixture of cock ups and fantasy so far. That is why I have said I am not bothered as yet about their political practice. That is not to say that I am not concerned about the BNP, indeed I am in discussions about it in the north at present.

I said you haven't produced anything publically of any depth that would qualify as political science, if you have I haven't been aware of it, and I will read it when it comes out. Your PhD does not count because it is 1 copy available by interlibrary loan, there is no way that can be called 'publically available'. It is 'available' and 'public' but 10 people will not read it in a year even if they jump through all the hoops and it gets returned on time, which to my mind does not deserve the label publically available because if one person has it nobody else in the public can get it!!

Compared to you I am only beginning my theoretical journey concerning fascism I agree, but it is one that I will continue to monitor and speaking at an academic conference (to acclaim I might add) about the subject does qualify me to talk about it. Certainly the debate at academic conferences is better theoretically than at anarchist ones, and I do try to encourage the collective raising of standards in all spheres.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 26, 2007)

Lots of waffle to cover up the fact that no, you hadn't read it and yet claimed that you had. You're a disgrace at the minute mate. Sort yourself out.


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## The Black Hand (Aug 26, 2007)

butchersapron said:
			
		

> Saying one thing then the opposite is not a good thing. It's a political liability and a license to do and say anything with no responsibility or comeback. See Healy. And see why no one listens to you anymore.



Well you should stop doing it!  

I believe in responsibility and comeback, far more so than the fly by nights at Limpcok for example. When I post I think aloud, and I do not see why this pub talk is problematic. The web is like the pub, if you want to read my academic serious writings you can, there is a difference, however I at least add some style to my webchat.

My ideas have associative logic, and the theories I use are time served and well developed. I do not care what twats who would say such a thing as this "And see why no one listens to you anymore" think, they do not deserve any time from me at all. The construction in some peoples eyes of me as an 'outsider' is ignorant, stupid, and many other things beside. 

What I will say is this, a*ll the time served comrades I respect I am on good terms with, and I have good relations with them*; it's only the twats at Limpcok and people like you who say those pathetic things.


----------



## The Black Hand (Aug 26, 2007)

butchersapron said:
			
		

> Lots of waffle to cover up the fact that no, you hadn't read it and yet claimed that you had. You're a disgrace at the minute mate. Sort yourself out.



Fekk off - sort yourself out you lowest of the low disgrace. It is plain you do not understand plain English then. 

There were 2 possibilities in what Larry said, I prioritised what I thought was more important politically. Larry and you chose to prioritise the other cos you can score political cheapshot point off it, and you are cheap.

In short, it is you who are being disingenuous about your concern, again.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 26, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> Well you should stop doing it!
> 
> I believe in responsibility and comeback, far more so than the fly by nights at Limpcok for example. When I post I think aloud, and I do not see why this pub talk is problematic. The web is like the pub, if you want to read my academic serious writings you can, there is a difference, however I at least add some style to my webchat.
> 
> ...



Shut up about libcom. You're being a daft obsessive. I've got nothing to with libcom, i've not posted there in 3 or 4 years, i dissascoiated from them some time ago - believe it or not, i've come to the position that you're a joke with no politics or understanding of reality all by myself.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 26, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> Fekk off - sort yourself out you lowest of the low disgrace. It is plain you do not understand plain English then.
> 
> There were 2 possibilities in what Larry said, I prioritised what I thought was more important politically. Larry and you chose to prioritise the other cos you can score political cheapshot point off it, and you are cheap.
> 
> In short, it is you who are being disingenuous about your concern, again.



Nope, only one thing that could possibly be 'read' in your reply. There's nothing else open to being 'read'. Please, stop this idiocy.


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Aug 27, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> The BNP have done fekk all that deserves their level of vote


In which case, presuming they do do 'fekk all' we might have to worry...



> you are right I haven't read Griffins latest article in Identity and I am still not bothered.



An admission _de facto _of what to normal people is known as a lie.  Fair enough.



> What I do know is that the BNP are really only just beginning in terms of strategy and size, if they are trying to build a Gramscianism of the right their attempts at cultural leadership so far are shite. Take the debacle of 'Solidarity' - the fascist 'trade union', a mixture of cock ups and fantasy so far.



There are different interpretations that can be put on Solidarity, suffice to say it is only one of various 'fronts'.  To say BNP strategy is "only just beginning" is bizarre--they have existed since 1982 & were on a learning curve even before Griffin took over in 1999.  A great pity you haven't read the Griffin article you earlier claimed to--for it deals strategically with precisely the question of how the BNP broadens its base by non-electoral activities in order to bolster electoral interventions.



> I am not bothered as yet about their political practice. That is not to say that I am not concerned about the BNP, indeed I am in discussions about it in the north at present.



How one can be in fruitful discussions about something you know little or nothing about and are not even bothered by is a philosophical conundrum a mere mortal like myself cannot resolve.  At the very least I would concede that for various complex reasons the BNPs electoral showing in the North East has been comparatively poor--although they have established themselves as virtually the only meaningful opposition electorally.



> I said you haven't produced anything publically of any depth that would qualify as political science, if you have I haven't been aware of it, and I will read it when it comes out. Your PhD does not count because it is 1 copy available by interlibrary loan, there is no way that can be called 'publically available'. It is 'available' and 'public' but 10 people will not read it in a year even if they jump through all the hoops and it gets returned on time, which to my mind does not deserve the label publically available because if one person has it nobody else in the public can get it!!



To say the above is arrogant shite nowhere near encapsulates it--having had direct malign intervention in relatiion to 5 publishers by _Searchlight _scum to prevent me getting published in book-form on this topic, you have the impertinence to blame me for this not happening.  Ludicrous at best.  The interesting question I suppose, is whether you agree with my strategic characterisation of how the Griffin strategy has built on lessons he learnt from his time in the Official NF, especially the formative 1986-90 period.  Or if you don't, why not?  I (again) suspect you haven't read it--in which case it really is poor form for somebody bandying the term 'political science' about to justify their lack of reading academic sources because they are only available on inter-library loan.   No reason why you should read it of course--save for the fact that I was awarded my PhD precisely because, in the thesis, I demonstrated a grasp of that very thing (political science) you claim I have produced nothing worth-while in--leaving aside the canard about 'public availability'. 



> Compared to you I am only beginning my theoretical journey concerning fascism I agree, but it is one that I will continue to monitor and speaking at an academic conference (to acclaim I might add) about the subject does qualify me to talk about it. Certainly the debate at academic conferences is better theoretically than at anarchist ones, and I do try to encourage the collective raising of standards in all spheres.



Being merely mortal, one can only marvel at the above.    

Finally though, credit where credit is due to Butcher's Apron, who has indefatigably pursued the commendable if intricate task of pinning Dr Attica down very effectively in this thread, for all who can follow reasoned argument.  Too often, threads here can descend into pointless exercises infested with trolling gangs: here, BA has shown a grasp of logic and discourse light years ahead of his protagonist.


----------



## The Black Hand (Aug 27, 2007)

butchersapron said:
			
		

> Shut up about libcom. You're being a daft obsessive. I've got nothing to with libcom, i've not posted there in 3 or 4 years, i dissascoiated from them some time ago - believe it or not, i've come to the position that you're a joke with no politics or understanding of reality all by myself.



Libcom are the joke with no politics nor understanding of reality - I have never taken you seriously cos you are one of those strange ultra left know it alls who are never based in practical reality. Joker.


----------



## The Black Hand (Aug 27, 2007)

butchersapron said:
			
		

> Nope, only one thing that could possibly be 'read' in your reply. There's nothing else open to being 'read'. Please, stop this idiocy.



You are the one who is denying reality in this case, mine is an objective reading and yours is subjective blustering. Quite why you spend so much time having a go at me is difficult to fathom. Perhaps it is to avoid political practice and praxis, it certainly looks like it.

Larry sed "the BNP are practising _'Gramscism of the Right'_, as illustrated yet again in _Griffins article _on 'Building Nationalist Strongholds' in this month's Identity."

There are 2 constructions in what Larry said here, I have italicised them. There was a choice in what to prioritise, the former (the more politically important), or the latter, which an anti fascist fetishist would prioritise 'cos they have it all sorted'. I chose the former, you continue to choose the latter.

It is you who are being disingenuous about your concern, again.


----------



## The Black Hand (Aug 27, 2007)

Larry sed; "There are different interpretations that can be put on Solidarity, suffice to say it is only one of various 'fronts'. To say BNP strategy is "only just beginning" is bizarre--they have existed since 1982 & were on a learning curve even before Griffin took over in 1999. A great pity you haven't read the Griffin article you earlier claimed to--for it deals strategically with precisely the question of how the BNP broadens its base by non-electoral activities in order to bolster electoral interventions."

I never claimed to have read Griffins article - you have no proof. Please photocopy the article, send me it and then I will read it. I will comment on it then.

Why I said 'only just beginning' was to emphasise that they are currently completely marginal, they have no political existence beyond their in crowd. The RWB is a joke, like the rest of their attempts at politics. They are small and full of reactionary cranks, though the chairmans blog said they recruited one guy from Rhodesia with ability so lets not write them off completely A paper tiger is one that looks big but really have no substance, and the BNP do lack substance, it can easily be crushed. That is not to say that it will be though, although anti fascists should aim to rather than blather on about irrelevances about 'how well they are doing'. Hahahahahahhahahahhaha


----------



## The Black Hand (Aug 27, 2007)

Larry sed; "Finally though, credit where credit is due to Butcher's Apron, who has indefatigably pursued the commendable if intricate task of pinning Dr Attica down very effectively in this thread, for all who can follow reasoned argument. Too often, threads here can descend into pointless exercises infested with trolling gangs: here, BA has shown a grasp of logic and discourse light years ahead of his protagonist."

Fekk off Larry, just cos he's mounted you from behind doesn't give him any ability, his logic is boring and his discourse basic, he's neither done nor said anything interesting. Get real.


----------



## The Black Hand (Aug 27, 2007)

Larry sed "To say the above is arrogant shite nowhere near encapsulates it--having had direct malign intervention in relatiion to 5 publishers by Searchlight scum to prevent me getting published in book-form on this topic, you have the impertinence to blame me for this not happening. Ludicrous at best. The interesting question I suppose, is whether you agree with my strategic characterisation of how the Griffin strategy has built on lessons he learnt from his time in the Official NF, especially the formative 1986-90 period. Or if you don't, why not? I (again) suspect you haven't read it--in which case it really is poor form for somebody bandying the term 'political science' about to justify their lack of reading academic sources because they are only available on inter-library loan. No reason why you should read it of course--save for the fact that I was awarded my PhD precisely because, in the thesis, I demonstrated a grasp of that very thing (political science) you claim I have produced nothing worth-while in--leaving aside the canard about 'public availability'."

Big deal - get off you high and mighty horse and join us mortals please, who cannot access your work cos there's one copy of it available. I am not blaming you for that, I objectively described reality though for us public mortals who desperately want to learn the thoughts of Chairman O'Hara. I never said you haven't written any serious political science, I said if it was publically available I wasn't aware of it (and my point was that it is not publically available). I just want to read something that everybody else has a reasonable chance of reading - that is not a bad thing. I am interested in what you write you know.


----------



## The Black Hand (Aug 27, 2007)

Larry sed "At the very least I would concede that for various complex reasons the BNPs electoral showing in the North East has been comparatively poor--although they have established themselves as virtually the only meaningful opposition electorally." This is not true, they are not opposition nor are they meaningful - they certainly aren't 'meaningful opposition electorally' either. Everybody treats them with outsider contempt. Good.


----------



## Paul Marsh (Aug 27, 2007)

I had to let facts intrude - but the BNP have just got the best ever by-election result by a fascist party in British history (Spence in Sedgfield) in the north east. 

They have regularly fielded more _candidates_ in Sunderland than left/anarchist groups have members in the whole of Tyne and Wear, earning some credible votes and second places. 

Time will tell if they build on this, but I should imagine quite a few organisations would currently value being on the receiving end of that degree of "outsider contempt"!!!


----------



## The Black Hand (Aug 27, 2007)

Paul Marsh said:
			
		

> I had to let facts intrude - but the BNP have just got the best ever by-election result by a fascist party in British history (Spence in Sedgfield) in the north east.
> 
> They have regularly fielded more _candidates_ in Sunderland than left/anarchist groups have members in the whole of Tyne and Wear, earning some credible votes and second places.
> 
> Time will tell if they build on this, but I should imagine quite a few organisations would currently value being on the receiving end of that degree of "outsider contempt"!!!



lets not have facts interlude; Their candidates change faster than you changing your allegiances.

Spence has left the BNP in a very public acruimonious manner which makes them look very bad.

Their vote in Sunderland is going DOWN year on year.


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Aug 27, 2007)

So, somebody I agree with has "mounted me from behind"--interesting homophobic analogy.  A PhD being available on inter-library loan (to anyone, not just students) is, nonetheless, "not publicly available".  And now it is my role (as a know fekk-all pleb) to photocopy research material & send it to enquirers (sorry, experts).  Marvellous--I can only humbly prostrate myself before such incisive intellect & razor-sharp wit.  On the other hand I think I will pass on that one...


----------



## The Black Hand (Aug 27, 2007)

Larry O'Hara said:
			
		

> So, somebody I agree with has "mounted me from behind"--interesting homophobic analogy.  A PhD being available on inter-library loan (to anyone, not just students) is, nonetheless, "not publicly available".  And now it is my role (as a know fekk-all pleb) to photocopy research material & send it to enquirers (sorry, experts).  Marvellous--I can only humbly prostrate myself before such incisive intellect & razor-sharp wit.  On the other hand I think I will pass on that one...



Actually I was thinking beastiality larry.  I luv gays me, i have 2 in my house at present - I like to keep my hands full 

You have photocopied and sent me stuff before Larry, and I have sent you emails too.  Passing info on is your choice of course but it was a genuine enquiry as one anti fascist to another, if you want to keep 'expertism' to yourself feel free, and I have acknowledged you as such already on this thread. If you were serious about improving my knowledge of fascism you would pass it on.


----------



## The Black Hand (Aug 27, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> And have you rewritten your PhD for publication? If you have send me it an email, I will have a look, pass it on and I will help you publish it. No, I am not kidding.



You seem to have missed this Larry. Have you written your PhD for publication then? 

I've rewritten mine and it is with a publisher now, then it will come back and they will tell me to change a few things and we will be ready to go. I could be wrong but I do not think so in the estimation that it is too late for 2007, unfortunately.


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Aug 27, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> You seem to have missed this Larry. Have you written your PhD for publication then?
> 
> I've rewritten mine and it is with a publisher now, then it will come back and they will tell me to change a few things and we will be ready to go. I could be wrong but I do not think so in the estimation that it is too late for 2007, unfortunately.



You don't fucking listen do you?  I have been approached by one publisher, who then pulled out because of Searchlight scum pressure, and 4 others the scum intervened in too.  I am not going to waste my time 'rewriting' something for publication until I know it will be published.  End of.


----------



## The Black Hand (Aug 27, 2007)

Larry O'Hara said:
			
		

> You don't fucking listen do you?  I have been approached by one publisher, who then pulled out because of Searchlight scum pressure, and 4 others the scum intervened in too.  I am not going to waste my time 'rewriting' something for publication until I know it will be published.  End of.




I did 'fucking listen' Larry. But there isn't a publisher anywhere who would publish a PhD as it is written for academia, they DO have to be rewritten. 

You are now in a self fulfilling prophecy as a result - they have stopped you publishing with 5 so far so you are not going to try to get published anymore. BUT there are many many other publishers. I am sure, or as near as dammit sure that your PhD would be published IF you rewrote it with a publisher I am working closely with. It's not so much rewriting, as an editing task actually with minor re-writing. You give it an introduction that introduces the general public to your book, and take out all the esoteric Academia, just imagine you are writing for the general public and I am sure that it would be relevant.


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Aug 27, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> I did 'fucking listen' Larry. But there isn't a publisher anywhere who would publish a PhD as it is written for academia, they DO have to be rewritten.
> 
> You are now in a self fulfilling prophecy as a result - they have stopped you publishing with 5 so far so you are not going to try to get published anymore. BUT there are many many other publishers. I am sure, or as near as dammit sure that your PhD would be published IF you rewrote it with a publisher I am working closely with. It's not so much rewriting, as an editing task actually with minor re-writing. You give it an introduction that introduces the general public to your book, and take out all the esoteric Academia, just imagine you are writing for the general public and I am sure that it would be relevant.



As usual, you are talking a load of shit--patronising shit at that, implying I am not aware of how books should be written.  I will not waste further time in pointless discussion with you on this matter.


----------



## The Black Hand (Aug 27, 2007)

Larry O'Hara said:
			
		

> As usual, you are talking a load of shit--patronising shit at that, implying I am not aware of how books should be written.  I will not waste further time in pointless discussion with you on this matter.



Pardon me for trying to help Larry. I was being serious, you haven't had your book published in 6 years is it now, and I was encouraging you. You say I am being patronising, that's true I was trying to help, that immediately signifies a position of being able to help (a patron), and I am. You are rejecting the hand that is trying to feed u but that is your choice, you appear to think you have it all sussed for some reason and are able to go it alone. Mine was a genuine non sectarian political science offer to encourage interesting writing. Oh well....


----------



## The Black Hand (Aug 27, 2007)

Larry O'Hara said:
			
		

> As usual, you are talking a load of shit--patronising shit at that, implying I am not aware of how books should be written.  I will not waste further time in pointless discussion with you on this matter.



Larry I do not write with you as the sole target - i write generally so others can see what is going on. I wasn't trying to be 'cleverer than you'...


----------



## JHE (Aug 31, 2007)

Getting back on topic...

The BNP has won the by-election in Loughton.  The election was called because a BNP councillor resigned (I can't remember why) - so it's a 'hold' rather than a 'gain'.

Loughton Alderton ward - Epping Forest District Council

BNP 393 (32.2%) (-5.4)
Residents Assoc. 367 (30.1%) (+1.0)
LD 172 (14.1%) (+10.5)
Con 163 (13.3%) (-3.1)
Lab 98 (8.0%) (-5.2)
UKIP 28 (2.3%) (n/a)​
http://www.eppingforestdc.gov.uk/news/2007/Loughton_Alderton_Result_of_Poll.asp


Loughton Alderton ward is a bit odd.  Two other wards nearby - Loughton Broadway & Loughton Fairmead - have BNP councillors too.  Broadmead and Fairmead wards make up most of Debden, Loughton's large post-war council estate.  Alderton, on the other hand, includes (a very long) Alderton Hill, which, far from being part of Debden, is bloody Multimillionaire Row!


----------



## treelover (Aug 31, 2007)

Does that mean the very rich have voted BNP, if so its very significant as it means they are now viewed by some of the rich as 'respectable'


----------



## JHE (Aug 31, 2007)

The ward has some council housing as well as Alderton Hill with its mansions, gravel drives, Bentleys, swimming pools and so on.  I don't know whether the BNP vote in that ward is from working class voters, rich voters or both.

In neighbouring wards with BNP councillors the BNP voters are bound to be working class, but in Alderton I've no way of telling what the class mix among BNPers is.


----------



## JHE (Aug 31, 2007)

Having had more of a look at the map and looked up the neighbourhood stats from the last census, I have to say Alderton Hill is very atypical of the ward that takes its name.  Overall, the class composition of the ward is nothing special.

http://neighbourhood.statistics.gov...5613&i=1001x1003x1004&m=0&enc=1&dsFamilyId=41


----------



## PaulOK (Aug 31, 2007)

treelover said:
			
		

> Does that mean the very rich have voted BNP, if so its very significant as it means they are now viewed by some of the rich as 'respectable'



The BNP are increasing their support among the middle classes, as any fascist party should. We all know that fascism has appeal across class boundaries and they must be delighted as being "the voice of the white working class" will only get them so far.

They are also back on 'The Terraces'* I attended the West Ham/Wigan match on Saturday and observed BNP leaflets being passed around in The Central and the West Ham apparel sellers outside the ground openly selling BNP badges and 'Enoch was Right' T-Shirts. Doing a roaring trade! Hear they're back a Chelsea too.

* For all the superior pedants who seem to monopolise this board; I know Terraces no longer exist but it's a turn of phrase.


----------



## JimPage (Aug 31, 2007)

The interesting thing about this ward is that it was solid labour until 2004- with Labour regularly pulling about 40% of the vote- their vote has now declined to under 10%

2002 result

Loughton Alderton (2 coucnillors to be elected) 
Labour 412   
Labour 377   
Conservative 315   
Conservative 292   
Liberal Dems 114   

A tight contest , but a win nevertheless for the BNP- their first win in a by election since 2004. 

Also announced on BNP Website that the sole NF Councillor out there has just come over to the BNP


----------



## JHE (Aug 31, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> The interesting thing about this ward is that it was solid labour until 2004- with Labour regularly pulling about 40% of the vote- their vote has now declined to under 10%



A lot of ballet dancers have moved into the area in the last few years!   

No, sorry, you are right about Labour, but it is also the Tories who have lost support and the support has shifted not just to the BNP, but to the BNP and the Loughton Residents Association.  (It's not just in that ward.  Both those groups have won seats in the Loughton area:  6 for the BNP, 5 for the LRA.)


----------



## JimPage (Sep 1, 2007)

as to BNP and elections- watch in particualr the vote in Nuneaton in a few weeks time- where they have polled about 30% in 2 previous by elections in town


----------



## The Black Hand (Sep 11, 2007)

Oh look at this BNP debacle - they did appallingly hahahahahahhahahahahaha

http://www.thisisyork.co.uk/display.var.1672130.0.lib_dems_win_byelection.php

63 votes only for the BNP! All the local hardcore racists 

This is a mere 3.11% of the voting electorate (1.99% of total electorate) and 4th place, only 5 votes ahead of the Greens, so they could easily have been 5th in this ward.


----------



## JimPage (Sep 12, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> Oh look at this BNP debacle - they did appallingly hahahahahahhahahahahaha
> 
> http://www.thisisyork.co.uk/display.var.1672130.0.lib_dems_win_byelection.php
> 
> ...



Sorry to disagree attica, but while this was a crap result for them- this was far from their strongest ward Its not somewhere they stood in May 2007 in York- fought 9 other wards- so could be considered at best their 10th best ward in town. There are areas they will do crap as there are areas that many parties do crap. Take a by election yesterday in Chemsford Broomfield ward. Greens polled 2.5%, UKIP 2.7% and Labour a less that noteworthy 3.6%. See what i mean?

They continue to grow, and extend their geographical reach. They have announced the formation of 3 new group over the last fortnight (North Tyneside, North Somerset, East Lindsey). They are fighting by elections is 3 local authority areas they have never fought before over the next few weeks (Copeland, Chester-le-street and Corby)  and are likely to do very well in by elections in Nuneaton and Rossendale over the next few weeks.

I feel you have been taken in by the bullshit put about by UAF and the like- who are in full fantasy mode at the moment about them beating back the BNP.


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Sep 13, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> Sorry to disagree attica, but while this was a crap result for them- this was far from their strongest ward Its not somewhere they stood in May 2007 in York- fought 9 other wards- so could be considered at best their 10th best ward in town. There are areas they will do crap as there are areas that many parties do crap. Take a by election yesterday in Chemsford Broomfield ward. Greens polled 2.5%, UKIP 2.7% and Labour a less that noteworthy 3.6%. See what i mean?
> 
> They continue to grow, and extend their geographical reach. They have announced the formation of 3 new group over the last fortnight (North Tyneside, North Somerset, East Lindsey). They are fighting by elections is 3 local authority areas they have never fought before over the next few weeks (Copeland, Chester-le-street and Corby)  and are likely to do very well in by elections in Nuneaton and Rossendale over the next few weeks.
> 
> I feel you have been taken in by the bullshit put about by UAF and the like- who are in full fantasy mode at the moment about them beating back the BNP.



Agreed: and as I have stated, some people cannot discuss this topic rationally....


----------



## The Black Hand (Sep 13, 2007)

Larry O'Hara said:
			
		

> Agreed: and as I have stated, some people cannot discuss this topic rationally....



That's true - you can't can you Larry.


----------



## The Black Hand (Sep 13, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> Sorry to disagree attica, but while this was a crap result for them- this was far from their strongest ward Its not somewhere they stood in May 2007 in York- fought 9 other wards- so could be considered at best their 10th best ward in town. There are areas they will do crap as there are areas that many parties do crap. Take a by election yesterday in Chemsford Broomfield ward. Greens polled 2.5%, UKIP 2.7% and Labour a less that noteworthy 3.6%. See what i mean?
> 
> They continue to grow, and extend their geographical reach. They have announced the formation of 3 new group over the last fortnight (North Tyneside, North Somerset, East Lindsey). They are fighting by elections is 3 local authority areas they have never fought before over the next few weeks (Copeland, Chester-le-street and Corby)  and are likely to do very well in by elections in Nuneaton and Rossendale over the next few weeks.
> 
> I feel you have been taken in by the bullshit put about by UAF and the like- who are in full fantasy mode at the moment about them beating back the BNP.



Jim - I do not read the UAF. Mine is an objective reading of the existing political organisation of Britain  The BNP still stand in less than 5% of UK council wards, they are completely marginal, and they got there from totally irrelevant  

If/when they get to standing 4000 councillors standing what will you say then? (if you are talking them up so much now?) That 4k will still only be 20% of UK council seats to. What will you say about them standing in the next general election, and losing (getting no seeats) approx 100K in lost deposits? I will gloat  

At the minute with minor modification you are just repeating the BNP's OWN hype about themselves as the UK'S 'fastest growing party' even if you don't intend to. I do not think agreeing with them is anti fascism.


----------



## JimPage (Sep 13, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> _Jim - I do not read the UAF. Mine is an objective reading of the existing political organisation of Britain  The BNP still stand in less than 5% of UK council wards, they are completely marginal, and they got there from totally irrelevant  _
> 
> _At the minute with minor modification you are just repeating the BNP's OWN hype about themselves as the UK'S 'fastest growing party' even if you don't intend to. I do not think agreeing with them is anti fascism.[/_QUOTE]
> 
> ...


----------



## JimPage (Sep 13, 2007)

Larry O'Hara said:
			
		

> Agreed: and as I have stated, some people cannot discuss this topic rationally....



http://www.channel4.com/news/articl...tics/bnp+site+gets+most+political+hits/799152

even more hype from that notorious pro-bnp source, channel 4, reporting that the BNP website is by far and away the most popular political party website in the UK in terms of visits


----------



## JimPage (Sep 14, 2007)

some more poor results for them (4-8%)in North wales and liverpool but a vote of 27.5% in Rossendale Irwell ward yesterday...


----------



## The Black Hand (Sep 14, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> some more poor results for them (4-8%)in North wales and liverpool but a vote of 27.5% in Rossendale Irwell ward yesterday...



Real anti fascist analysis would identify just what it is about the wards that give them approx 27% of the vote, and why they get 3-8% in others. What exists at present is inadequate IMHO. I would like to see ABCDE class breakdowns of wards, and some information about house prices in such analysis, and perhaps some cultural history of the wards too. That sort of analysis could help anti fascists in strategic and tactical campaigns.

At the minute all there seems to be is well meaning angst about an undefined 'political vacuum'.


----------



## JimPage (Sep 15, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> Real anti fascist analysis would identify just what it is about the wards that give them approx 27% of the vote, and why they get 3-8% in others. What exists at present is inadequate IMHO. I would like to see ABCDE class breakdowns of wards, and some information about house prices in such analysis, and perhaps some cultural history of the wards too. That sort of analysis could help anti fascists in strategic and tactical campaigns.
> 
> At the minute all there seems to be is well meaning angst about an undefined 'political vacuum'.



hoepfully this will help 

http://www.rossendale.gov.uk/site/scripts/download_info.php?downloadID=413

quite good ward profiles

my understanding is that the ward the BNP did well in was their local target ward for their Rochdale and Roissendale group and where they have been plugging away for years with local bulletins, door to door paper sales etc.


----------



## audiotech (Sep 15, 2007)

Results (percentages in brackets):

Goodshaw (Rossendale)

Lab 632 (59.40)
Con 300 (28.20)
LibDem 52 (4.89)
BNP 80 (7.52)

Total 1064

Whitewell (Rossendale)

Lab 399 (31.97)
Con 152 (12.18)
LibDem 606 (48.56)
BNP 91 (7.29)

Total 1248

Irwell (Rossendale)

Lab 379 (37.16)
Con 312 (30.59)
LibDem 48 (4.71)
BNP 281 (27.55)

Total 1020

Liverpool Warbreck

Lab 1796 (54.99)
Con 40 (1.22)
LibDem 1024 (31.35)
BNP 146 (4.47)
Ind 131 (4.01)
Green 45 (1.38)
LLCP 32 (0.98)
UKIP 52 (1.59)

Total 3266

Conwy Mochdre 

Lab 303 (45.70)
Con 159 (23.98)
BNP 35 (5.28)
Plaid 166 (25.04)

Total 663


----------



## Gmart (Sep 15, 2007)

If the BNP dropped their ridiculous race laws, then they could take advantage of the situation the country is in. A community base maybe?

People are generally patriotic at a basic level, so maybe we should be thankful that they are so stupid as to not notice this.


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Sep 15, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> Real anti fascist analysis would identify just what it is about the wards that give them approx 27% of the vote, and why they get 3-8% in others. What exists at present is inadequate IMHO. I would like to see ABCDE class breakdowns of wards, and some information about house prices in such analysis, and perhaps some cultural history of the wards too. That sort of analysis could help anti fascists in strategic and tactical campaigns.
> 
> At the minute all there seems to be is well meaning angst about an undefined 'political vacuum'.



So, why don't you do this, instead of advocating others do so?


----------



## The Black Hand (Sep 16, 2007)

Larry O'Hara said:
			
		

> So, why don't you do this, instead of advocating others do so?



I do not have to do everything   I cannot do it on my own anyway, it is simply too big a task. But this is something the movement SHOULD have been doing, those concerned should be having a series of mini conferences/ 'research seminars' (2 or 3 a year) where such things can be planned, supported and disseminated.


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Sep 16, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> I do not have to do everything.



I would welcome you doing anything....


----------



## Random (Sep 16, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> But this is something the movement SHOULD have been doing, those concerned should be having a series of mini conferences/ 'research seminars' (2 or 3 a year) where such things can be planned, supported and disseminated.



Yes!!1!  More conferences and seminars!  Funny that you, an academic, should keep on banging on about them....


----------



## The Black Hand (Sep 17, 2007)

Larry O'Hara said:
			
		

> I would welcome you doing anything....



You really have not got a clue Larry.


----------



## The Black Hand (Sep 17, 2007)

Random said:
			
		

> Yes!!1!  More conferences and seminars!  Funny that you, an academic, should keep on banging on about them....



I am not an academic  

Either you are serious about your politics or you are not. I take it you are not.

Pro working class research and ideas do not develop by themselves, you do have to WORK at it. The information is out there, is collectable, could improve practice, and meetings are one way to build the divided and sectarian anti fascist 'movement' in britain. OR are you happy with it's shit state and want the status quo to continue? AS Marx said, the point is to change it.

It's only because of the relative low levels of politicisation in the working class in Britain that you are able to get away with saying that Random. If it was Italy you would have been laughed at.


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Sep 17, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> You really have not got a clue Larry.



no, I've only been active in this field for 30 years.


----------



## urbanrevolt (Sep 17, 2007)

Larry O'Hara said:
			
		

> no, I've only been active in this field for 30 years.


 doesn't necessarily mean you learn something though unfortunately- many people have been active for many years without necessarily learning.

No comment at all on Larry, though, whom I don't know- just a riposte to his riposte


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Sep 17, 2007)

urbanrevolt said:
			
		

> doesn't necessarily mean you learn something though unfortunately- many people have been active for many years without necessarily learning.
> 
> No comment at all on Larry, though, whom I don't know- just a riposte to his riposte



Your first para is fair enough--and as for the second: perhaps if you obtain my PhD (which has so far not been published) 'Creating Political Soldiers: the NF 1986-90' (London University 2001) you will see that, before it was commonplace, I had pinpointed what was novel/important/efficacious about BNP strategy: something Attica refuses to accept, and even criticises me for it not being published.  I was not wise after the event about the BNP, but before/during, while the dominant perspective accused them of going nowhere, or indeed about to split asunder (a line still peddled daily on the Lancaster UAF site for example)


----------



## The Black Hand (Sep 17, 2007)

Larry O'Hara said:
			
		

> no, I've only been active in this field for 30 years.


So inneffective?


----------



## The Black Hand (Sep 17, 2007)

Larry O'Hara said:
			
		

> Your first para is fair enough--and as for the second: perhaps if you obtain my PhD (which has so far not been published) 'Creating Political Soldiers: the NF 1986-90' (London University 2001) you will see that, before it was commonplace, I had pinpointed what was novel/important/efficacious about BNP strategy: something Attica refuses to accept, and even criticises me for it not being published.  I was not wise after the event about the BNP, but before/during, while the dominant perspective accused them of going nowhere, or indeed about to split asunder (a line still peddled daily on the Lancaster UAF site for example)



What's the point of ideas if you cannot share them Larry? 

I critisised you for not rewriting it SO it could be published. I offered to help pass it onto sympathetic publishers in a non sectarian way and you refused to rewrite it!! How bizarre how bizarre. And you call yourself an anti-fascist!!

PLEASE - forget this pointless wittering. Rewrite it. Pass me that file so I can have a look at it and send it on with an apposite recommendation. Or are you going to cry into your beer for another 6 years?


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Sep 17, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> What's the point of ideas if you cannot share them Larry?
> 
> I critisised you for not rewriting it SO it could be published. I offered to help pass it onto sympathetic publishers in a non sectarian way and you refused to rewrite it!! How bizarre how bizarre. And you call yourself an anti-fascist!!



Rubbish



> PLEASE - forget this pointless wittering. Rewrite it. Pass me that file so I can have a look at it and send it on with an apposite recommendation. Or are you going to cry into your beer for another 6 years?



No I am not--I have written other stuff & will do.  The idea that you, who publish nothing, can 'advise' others on same is pathetic.  And you are too stupid to realise the point is not to rewrite it for publication (already done), but Searchlight scum preventing it getting published.  In which case 'rewriting' further is a waste of time.-


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Sep 17, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> So inneffective?



really?  I'll let others who know about this topic judge that, thank you.


----------



## The Black Hand (Sep 18, 2007)

Larry O'Hara said:
			
		

> No I am not--I have written other stuff & will do.  The idea that you, who publish nothing, can 'advise' others on same is pathetic.  And you are too stupid to realise the point is not to rewrite it for publication (already done), but Searchlight scum preventing it getting published.  In which case 'rewriting' further is a waste of time.-



I had an article published in a serious refereed journal (not a self published glee magazine) and I do other stuff too.

Sorry Larry, that's just not true. (I'll send details in PM). 

A HA!! THat's the FIRST time you have said you have rewritten it for publication. We had a debate not so very long ago about the very same point and you failed to mention that then. I do know of your 'problems' with Searchlight but Quelle surprise.

PLEASE - send me it so I can have a look and I'll pass it onto a sympathetic publisher.


----------



## The Black Hand (Sep 18, 2007)

Larry O'Hara said:
			
		

> really?  I'll let others who know about this topic judge that, thank you.



There was a question mark. 

You are behaving like an aged professor from an old university who blusters when he is challenged by a dynamic student


----------



## The Black Hand (Sep 18, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> Results (percentages in brackets):
> 
> Goodshaw (Rossendale)
> 
> ...



Just a quick bit of maths. If you take the exceptional result out of these 5 results, and see the remaining 4 as more typical results you get some rather poor BNP figures for a 'growing party'. The average % is only 6.14% out of people on the electoral register in those 4 more typical seats.

They get a total vote of 352 out of 6241 on the electoral register in those 4 wards. That is the performance of a party completely on the margins whose 'bigger' votes are the exception rather than the norm.


----------



## audiotech (Sep 18, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> Just a quick bit of maths. If you take the exceptional result out of these 5 results, and see the remaining 4 as more typical results you get some rather poor BNP figures for a 'growing party'. The average % is only 6.14% out of people on the electoral register in those 4 more typical seats.
> 
> They get a total vote of 352 out of 6241 on the electoral register in those 4 wards. That is the performance of a party completely on the margins whose 'bigger' votes are the exception rather than the norm.



To add to their woes, a number of their leading cadre   have decided to quit recently.


----------



## The Black Hand (Sep 19, 2007)

In post 854 (page 35) I asked you directly whether you had rewritten it. You didn't answer.

Here (P 36) you say you are 'not going to waste your time rewriting it'.




			
				Larry O'Hara said:
			
		

> You don't fucking listen do you?  I have been approached by one publisher, who then pulled out because of Searchlight scum pressure, and 4 others the scum intervened in too.  I am not going to waste my time 'rewriting' something for publication until I know it will be published.  End of.



Then you said (P. 37) "And you are too stupid to realise the point is not to rewrite it for publication (already done), but Searchlight scum preventing it getting published. In which case 'rewriting' further is a waste of time."

IT IS YOU who are contradictory and misleading - why Larry? It is not to try and score cheap political points is it? But anyway, send me the rewritten file if you want, I will still pass it on.


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Sep 19, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> In post 854 (page 35) I asked you directly whether you had rewritten it. You didn't answer.
> 
> Here (P 36) you say you are 'not going to waste your time rewriting it'.
> 
> ...



Let me get this right--you are calling me contradictory and misleading.   

I think at this point, I shall adjourn this futile non-debate, save to say

1) I have important (publishing-related  ) tasks to do.

2) You wouldn't be the same Attica who claimed to have read a key Nick Griffin article in _Identity_ that you hadn't, and haven't still, would you??


----------



## The Black Hand (Sep 19, 2007)

Larry pull your pants up. 

I never claimed to have read that article in Identity. Anyway it is all explained above and any objective and neutral reading would support me   The self referential glee club you wonks operate in is pathetic.


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Sep 20, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> Larry pull your pants up.
> 
> I never claimed to have read that article in Identity.



You did, but now lie about it--fair enough.



> The self referential glee club you wonks operate in is pathetic.



glee club?

wonks?

self-referential?

Keep taking the medication...


----------



## The Black Hand (Sep 20, 2007)

We have already done the evidence debate on this thread. I didn't say that. You for some reason continue to maintain I did BUT you have no evidence and that is normally necessary so it is you who needs the medication.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 20, 2007)

Both/everyone - we've got a a good thread here, some useful ideas, some good competing analysis and some stats that we're adding to as we go on. Let's keep it about that if we can eh? Some interesting things coming up, let's concentrate on them please.

(Even though it's attica's fault  )


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Sep 20, 2007)

butchersapron said:
			
		

> Both/everyone - we've got a a good thread here, some useful ideas, some good competing analysis and some stats that we're adding to as we go on. Let's keep it about that if we can eh? Some interesting things coming up, let's concentrate on them please.
> 
> (Even though it's attica's fault  )



I agree--I suppose it is my Irish ancestry that causes me to respond to twaddle when I should ignore it.


----------



## The Black Hand (Sep 20, 2007)

Random said:
			
		

> Yes!!1!  More conferences and seminars!  Funny that you, an academic, should keep on banging on about them....



Just a point - there are NO conferences or seminars where the class struggle anarchist movement tries to develop its politics beyond the sect.


----------



## The Black Hand (Sep 20, 2007)

Larry O'Hara said:
			
		

> I agree--I suppose it is my Irish ancestry that causes me to respond to twaddle when I should ignore it.



Or you are being a ____?


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 20, 2007)

butchersapron said:
			
		

> Both/everyone - we've got a a good thread here, some useful ideas, some good competing analysis and some stats that we're adding to as we go on. Let's keep it about that if we can eh? Some interesting things coming up, let's concentrate on them please.
> 
> (Even though it's attica's fault  )


ditto


----------



## The Black Hand (Sep 20, 2007)

Lets keep it nice and clean without ad hominem attacks then shall we.


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 20, 2007)

attica .. i have been part of these tit for tat b4 and they go nowhere .. i am not ascribing blame here t


----------



## The Black Hand (Sep 20, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> attica .. i have been part of these tit for tat b4 and they go nowhere .. i am not ascribing blame here t



I wasn't aiming my comment at you, you are a breath of fresh air as ever.


----------



## JimPage (Sep 22, 2007)

BNP % Votes from BY-Elections on Thursday
Whitehaven  23.4%
Nuneaton     21.5%
Southend     13.9%
Wigan          13.8%
Worcester    11.7%
Birmingham     6.2%

Unbelievably, the UAF are trying to spin the Nuneaton result into some sort of defeat for the fash!


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 22, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> I wasn't aiming my comment at you, you are a breath of fresh air as ever.



how sweet of you


----------



## The Black Hand (Sep 29, 2007)

I've picked these poll results from a political site - though the figures appear accurate they do need to be checked.

Chester Central Ward by-election(Durham) Thursday 27th september 

LAB 324
CON 88
LIB DEM 81
BNP 51 (9.3%)

Turnout 25%


Lloyds ward by-election(Corby), Northants County council Thursday 27th september 

Labour 1092
Cons 375
Lib Dem 311
BNP 265 (12.9%)

30.7% turnout.

These results are neither poor nor good, just getting around. One thing that springs to mind from a quick look at figures in ONE poll (where they stood for the first time), is that they suggest that the BNP take 70% of their vote from labour, 25% from the Tories and 5% from Liberal. I am basing this in the drop in level of votes in a ward where no BNP stood previously.

BUT this still leaves a huge number of people voting labour, enough to win the seat indefinately. SO! The real question is WHERE are the next level of BNP voters going to come from? They may have picked off the 'easily led', but it is the NEXT level of voters which they will have to persuade which is a FAR HARDER task than this 'beginning' level of votes. That is apart from holding onto these 'easily led' votes....

I have just been on another political site which confirms these figures above. And the more interesting one here;

 Sunderland MBC, Washington East

Con 1196 (49.9; +9.8), Lab 994 (41.5; +2.2), LD 206 (8.6; -5.6), [BNP (0.0; -6.3)].

Majority 202. Turnout 27.6%. Con gain from Lab. Last fought 2007.

There were 9 polls on Thursday 27th september and the BNP stood in 2. The Sunderland poll, one area where they pride themselves on standing a full slate, is interesting cos it suggests the beginning of the end for the BNP in Sunderland. The BNP dropped out and the Tory hoovered up their votes, enough to win the seat.


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 29, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> I've picked these poll results from a political site - though the figures appear accurate they do need to be checked.
> 
> Chester Central Ward by-election(Durham) Thursday 27th september
> 
> ...



as you know i think avergaing c.10% is good for them .. but what i really am interested in is whats the deal on the wear? tell us more ( i think you have before but again plkease as clealry, they are doing badly there )


----------



## The Black Hand (Oct 3, 2007)

Larry O'Hara said:
			
		

> I would welcome you doing anything....



Larry oh Larry - look here for the new front cover of the mag   

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2007/09/382291.html?c=on#c181684


----------



## JimPage (Oct 3, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> . SO! The real question is WHERE are the next level of BNP voters going to come from? .



where i think they ar epicking up most of theri votes anyway- disillusioned ex labour voters who will not vote for any of the 3 main parties. whiel the drop in mainstream partyt votes may mean some are coming to the BNP- and more from labour- its the 40% who dont vote where their pickings will continue to come from

agree not classic resutls for them, but they wont be too displeased with a 12% first tiem vote in corby

by election in leicestershire tomorrow may show a better vote for them


----------



## The Black Hand (Oct 3, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> where i think they ar epicking up most of theri votes anyway- disillusioned ex labour voters who will not vote for any of the 3 main parties. whiel the drop in mainstream partyt votes may mean some are coming to the BNP- and more from labour- its the 40% who dont vote where their pickings will continue to come from
> 
> agree not classic resutls for them, but they wont be too displeased with a 12% first tiem vote in corby
> 
> by election in leicestershire tomorrow may show a better vote for them



I read on a fash site that their Corby branch was depressed about the result . GOOD. Let's keep 'em depressed, and preferably more black. And blue.


----------



## kyser_soze (Oct 3, 2007)

So looking at those voting numbers...they're all on really low turnouts to start with, but are BNP voters more likely to turn out and vote than Lab/Con etc? I'm thinking along the lines that extremists of any kind are more motivated - think about the types who call into radio phone ins, or fill the BBC website up with green ink rantings...or indeed, 'activists' generally...

What I'm getting at is are would the number of votes for the BNP increase with higher turnouts, or are they already gettin the max number of votes they're likely to ever get?


----------



## Crispy (Oct 3, 2007)

kyser_soze said:
			
		

> What I'm getting at is are would the number of votes for the BNP increase with higher turnouts, or are they already gettin the max number of votes they're likely to ever get?



Sounds like a sensible hypothesis.


----------



## The Black Hand (Oct 3, 2007)

kyser_soze said:
			
		

> So looking at those voting numbers...they're all on really low turnouts to start with, but are BNP voters more likely to turn out and vote than Lab/Con etc? I'm thinking along the lines that extremists of any kind are more motivated - think about the types who call into radio phone ins, or fill the BBC website up with green ink rantings...or indeed, 'activists' generally...
> 
> What I'm getting at is are would the number of votes for the BNP increase with higher turnouts, or are they already gettin the max number of votes they're likely to ever get?



Good question -  that I do not know the answer to at present.


----------



## audiotech (Oct 3, 2007)

The BNP have had some success with those that don't usually vote at all and younger men. There is a protest vote too of course, but that will be affected now with Blair gone.

Recent statements from some tories may have an affect too on the BNP vote.

It should be noted that a recent report by the Rowntree Trust had three quarters of those surveyed stating they would never vote for the BNP.

If a general election is announced next week the BNP is not prepared for it, as it's leadership appear to be in crisis at this point.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 3, 2007)

Why - you _always_ think that they're in crisis anyway!


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 3, 2007)

Crispy said:
			
		

> Sounds like a sensible hypothesis.


The Joseph Rowntree report on 'who votes BNP' found that high turnouts tend to help them.


----------



## audiotech (Oct 3, 2007)

butchersapron said:
			
		

> Why - you _always_ think that they're in crisis anyway!



  Read my mind - not!  

I've always thought they had a contempt for the mind meself. 

This crisis seems a bit more intense somehow?


----------



## kyser_soze (Oct 3, 2007)

butchersapron said:
			
		

> The Joseph Rowntree report on 'who votes BNP' found that high turnouts tend to help them.



Unfortunatey there's not substitute for actual voting behaviour - surveys are all well and good, but the smaller the likely voting population, the harder it is to make any kind of prediction about this - altho I'd be interested to see the report, is it publicly available?


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 3, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> Read my mind - not!
> 
> I've always thought they had a contempt for the mind meself.
> 
> This crisis seems a bit more intense somehow?



For gods sake man do you get your info anywhere else than the searchlight sourced luaf? This lot have been saying that the BNP are in crisis for the last 10 years. In that time they've gone from 1 seat ever to over 50 and picked up a million votes a few years back. These people saying they are in crisis means precisely nothing. It's just a deliberately chosen _tactic_. And for anyone whose been keeping their eye on the ball for a while, these sort of carry-ons are par for the course in the far right.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 3, 2007)

kyser_soze said:
			
		

> Unfortunatey there's not substitute for actual voting behaviour - surveys are all well and good, but the smaller the likely voting population, the harder it is to make any kind of prediction about this - altho I'd be interested to see the report, is it publicly available?



A summary:
http://www.irr.org.uk/2004/april/ak000015.html


----------



## kyser_soze (Oct 3, 2007)

Ta


----------



## audiotech (Oct 3, 2007)

butchersapron said:
			
		

> For gods sake man do you get your info anywhere else than the searchlight sourced luaf? This lot have been saying that the BNP are in crisis for the last 10 years. In that time they've gone from 1 seat ever to over 50 and picked up a million votes a few years back. These people saying they are in crisis means precisely nothing. It's just a deliberately chosen _tactic_. And for anyone whose been keeping their eye on the ball for a while, these sort of carry-ons are par for the course in the far right.



Well, tell us summat new.  

Why would I be so stupid to rely on a single source ffs?

It's one *tactic* of many. I get a laugh from it.


----------



## JimPage (Oct 3, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> I read on a fash site that their Corby branch was depressed about the result . GOOD. Let's keep 'em depressed, and preferably more black. And blue.



i think you are taking that from one post on stormfront. they dont have a branch in in corby- and the fascists havnet been organised there since 1980 when an NF march in town got a serious hammering. they arent always stadsing for election to win- but rather than in an effort to get things together in town- to motivate local activists to get organised with a base of 12% of the vote ( in a large county council ward) its hardly a bad start for them


----------



## JimPage (Oct 3, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> _Recent statements from some tories may have an affect too on the BNP vote._
> _
> If a general election is announced next week the BNP is not prepared for it, as it's leadership appear to be in crisis at this point_.



1. the effect of the recent tory staements will simply legitimise what they say

2. the bnp is not in crisis. you seem to mistake what is put out by lancaster uaf for intelligence, and not propoganda aimed to cause disillusionment amoung the fash - and  to try to shore up antifascist confidence with bullshit anlaysis. I also think they are being fed deliberately duff intelligence 

Lancaster UAF are open searchlight collaburators. 

BNP have already announced hey will fight more seats than they did in 2005 (118) whenever the election is


----------



## JimPage (Oct 3, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> Read my mind - not!
> 
> I've always thought they had a contempt for the mind meself.
> 
> This crisis seems a bit more intense somehow?



woudl this be the crisis about Sadie Graham resigning which the BNP have laughed off today on their website as simply wrong


----------



## audiotech (Oct 3, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> woudl this be the crisis about Sadie Graham resigning which the BNP have laughed off today on their website as simply wrong



Possibly? Although (as you usually do?) I take what the BNP says with a pinch of salt.

Can't get away from the inordinate amount of sackings and resignations taking place within the BNP lately though.

A purge?


----------



## audiotech (Oct 3, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> 1. the effect of the recent tory staements will simply legitimise what they say
> 
> 2. the bnp is not in crisis. you seem to mistake what is put out by lancaster uaf for intelligence, and not propoganda aimed to cause disillusionment amoung the fash - and  to try to shore up antifascist confidence with bullshit anlaysis. I also think they are being fed deliberately duff intelligence
> 
> ...



The tories will be hoping to shore up some support with their recent statements.

Not in crisis? My initial point was that the BNP appears to be in crisis? Are they not?

I've been following these events for decades Jim and the point about "collaburators" [sic] ?  is just, well daft.


----------



## The Black Hand (Oct 4, 2007)

kyser_soze said:
			
		

> Unfortunatey there's not substitute for actual voting behaviour - surveys are all well and good, but the smaller the likely voting population, the harder it is to make any kind of prediction about this - altho I'd be interested to see the report, is it publicly available?



Here's an hypothesis for you; The established parties CORE vote is always going to be larger than the BNPs, simply because of the benefit of tradition. Therefore low polls should assist the big parties, Labour in the North, Tories in the South (in their heartlands). The floating voter areas, where results are always harder to predict, would mean that low polls would assist the core voters and the protest voters (so there are 2 potential beneficiaries). 

It would be down to the exact cultural patterns of an area that decides which way it goes. Thus those areas with people who has a more in your face attitude I would expect may have a higher protest vote, and those which has a more laid back approach (typically southern/rural/suburban) the liberals. However, again, that is the difficulty with theory, the rural/suburban protest vote may go towards the protest vote if it is a MORE nationalistic area than others. There are a lot of variables (things that can affect the hypothesis) and it would take further research to establish the real world patterns.


----------



## JimPage (Oct 5, 2007)

Election result from yesterday
Leicestershire County Council- Shedshed ward

Lab 1217 30.2% 
Con 1074 26.6% 
LD 933 23.1% 
BNP 807 20.0% 

Highest ever BNP result at county council level i think?


----------



## The Black Hand (Oct 7, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> Election result from yesterday
> Leicestershire County Council- Shedshed ward
> 
> Lab 1217 30.2%
> ...



I've been drinking in Shepshed some years ago - with an ex DAM member   I forgot that place existed. It's a small town small 'c' conservative rural area where very little happens, and it has not had any active politics beyond the established parties as far as I know. So it is not the far left which has created this level of vote, it looks like a fairly unpoliticised protest vote to me.


----------



## durruti02 (Oct 7, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> I've been drinking in Shepshed some years ago - with an ex DAM member   I forgot that place existed. It's a small town small 'c' conservative rural area where very little happens, and it has not had any active politics beyond the established parties as far as I know. So it is not the far left which has created this level of vote, it looks like a fairly unpoliticised protest vote to me.



shepshed was industrial .. clothing and coal mines .. but it is now a dormitory town for leicster .. 

does that make the bnp vote middle class? or is it the w/c rump who have voted that way .. i do not know and nor do you attica! 

we would need a proper breakdown ..

in terms of the far left influence i suspect even there, people would have a perception of the far left as being the supportters of 'immmigrants and muslims' not of 'them' ..


----------



## The Black Hand (Oct 7, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> shepshed was industrial .. clothing and coal mines .. but it is now a dormitory town for leicster ..
> 
> A) does that make the bnp vote middle class? or is it the w/c rump who have voted that way .. i do not know and nor do you attica!
> 
> ...



A) I think it is a bit of both, but you are right, I do not know.

B) I have been arguing for such organised long term research for a while now. 

C) Perhaps so - but not necessarily. I suspect that people are more sophisticated than that and do not see this imaginary far left. I suspect it is racist nationalism feeding this not very politicised protest vote. But as you say - we need more research and meetings beyond anybodies 'comfort zones'. That includes you, me, Larry, other urbanites and all the other so called 'anti fascists'.


----------



## JimPage (Oct 9, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> The tories will be hoping to shore up some support with their recent statements.
> 
> Not in crisis? My initial point was that the BNP appears to be in crisis? Are they not?
> 
> I've been following these events for decades Jim and the point about "collaburators" [sic] ?  is just, well daft.



The recent vote was after both the tories and labour adopting a far right position on migration - and the effect, so far, seems to have been minimal on their vote. 

As to a crisis in the BNP- well dunno about that. Would not discount it- but whenevr i hear "BNP in crisis" from Searchlight/Lancaster UAF and simialr beasts you can normally disount this. 

Also- the BNP Leadership seems not to tolerate failure. If a local leader fails to succeed- they arent kept on out of loyalty- they are replaced. A lesson the left could learn


----------



## audiotech (Oct 12, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> As to a crisis in the BNP- well dunno about that. Would not discount it- but whenevr i hear "BNP in crisis" from Searchlight/Lancaster UAF and simialr beasts you can normally disount this.



I'm not discounting the 'BNP crisis' just yet Jim.

More info.

True-blue Horsham in West Sussex - DC Holbrook ward result:

Con 554 40.35 
LibDem 602 43.85 
Lab 54 3.93 
BNP 163 11.87 

Total 1373


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 12, 2007)

What does it say?


----------



## audiotech (Oct 12, 2007)

Lots of things.


----------



## JimPage (Oct 13, 2007)

Few more by elections being fought by BNP in next few weeks, in Southport, South Derbyshire,Tamworth and Ashfield.


----------



## Prince Rhyus (Oct 13, 2007)

I found http://www.rvar.org.uk/pages/FAQs/recant.htm to be interesting reading.


----------



## Geoff kerr-morg (Oct 13, 2007)

Sorry if this has already been posted from Searchlight

http://www.stopthebnp.org.uk/PDFdownload/BNPcrisis_Oct2007.pdf


----------



## Prince Rhyus (Oct 13, 2007)

And...

http://education.guardian.co.uk/higher/news/story/0,,2189502,00.html


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Oct 13, 2007)

Geoff kerr-morg said:
			
		

> Sorry if this has already been posted from Searchlight
> 
> http://www.stopthebnp.org.uk/PDFdownload/BNPcrisis_Oct2007.pdf



So you should be--the usual mix of raw sewage & BS from that source.  For exanple,_ Searchlight _now draw reference to the Lecomber murder plot--but they did their best to ensure this was a 'non-story' in the English media, and have never to this day called for Lecomber's arrest have they?

For years the _Searchlight_ line was the NF then BNP were about to unleash armed struggle--now they are having unprecedented (for fascists) electoral success, the new line is they are about to disintegrate, daily.  Amusing, were the subject matter not so important.  No doubt had _Searchlight _been around in Germany 1933 their 29/1/33 'NSDAP in Crisis' headline would have screamed 'Nazis in crisis as followers desert sad Fuhrer'.  Get a life--or even better, a brain.

So, in future don't apologise for linking to _Searchlight _garbage--just don't do it.  Period.


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Oct 13, 2007)

Prince Rhyus said:
			
		

> I found http://www.rvar.org.uk/pages/FAQs/recant.htm to be interesting reading.



shouldn't that be amusing reading?  I presume you have never read my detailed alternative view of the careers of Ray Hill (eg _Lobster_/_Searchlight _for Beginners) Collins (_Notes From the Border_land issue 2), Sykes (_Notes From the Borderland _issue 6).  If/when you have, you might still find that pap interesting--but for different reasons.  And not forgetting Tim Hepple/Matthews either of course.


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Oct 15, 2007)

Some people may like having the last word--I don't, necessarily.  The 2 posters above me gave links to_ Searchlight _disinformation, on important matters: crisis (or otherwise) in the BNP, and the tall tales told by some 'reformed' fascists in _Searchlight'_s orbit.  Without questionong at all the sincerity and motives of those two posters, I really would be interested in some discussion on the rights/wrongs of these matters.  Or failing that, at the very least an acknowledgement by the posters that, yes, there is an alternative point of view concerning these stories that may merit some examination, at least.  Surely, on an internet discussion forum, that is a reasonable request on my part?  I am well aware that Searchlight  scum do not believe in debate, or allow it in their magazine--but I would hesitate before assuming such bad faith on the part of the above two posters I am referring to.  If disinformation is peddled unchallemged, that only ensures repetition--Searchlight can get away with such falsehoods as they do precisely because people often uncritically see them as a 'neutral' information source.  However, given their aspirations are monopolistic, surely even the most blinkered Last Century Leftist can understand that this whole area of fascism/anti-fascism/the media/the secret state, is one in which the secret state itself, in various dactions, has its own agendas.  How much easier to pursue them, including the creation of false ;legends' for state assets, if the conversion stories of same are never subject to scrutiny, of the sort I have attempted in the articles mentioned above.  Equally, as my seemingly flippant remark above about 'NSDAP in Crisis' alludes to, constantly crying wolf & underestimating the fascist enemy in fact aids fascists, because it divertd attention from examining and then targetting, their actual strengths & weaknesses.  All very obvious really, and tedious to have to keep repeating such.  But, to paraphrase Wellington, if the secret state & their sewage outlets keep coming on in the same old way, they need to be opposed in the same old way, at least.  And finally, to those naive enough to sign up the the Searchlight 'shut down Redwatch' campaign, there is ample evidence in the public domain/online--including the entire Notes From the Borderland issue 2 article concerning Yorkshire--that Searchlight, including Lowles as well as Gable, and Searchlight/SB informant Tony White--are implicated in Redwatch Mark 2 as they were in Redwatch Mark 1.  If you do not learn from history, then as Marx might have said, you are condemned to facilitate its repetition.


----------



## audiotech (Oct 15, 2007)

You appear to have had the last three words. I note all in code.


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Oct 15, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> You appear to have had the last three words. I note all in code.



What you mean is, I have raised questions outside your knowledge-base, so you think making a slightly sarky remark is an acceptable reply.  Were this a croquet club, maybe appropriate, but its not.  Tell me, would I be right in thinking you are some kind of socialist?  If so, are not questions pertaining to fascism/anti-fascism & the state of interest to you?  Furthermore, was it the other posters, or me, who uncritically linked to _Searchlight _propaganda?  Or are you not bothered whether you regurgitate/condone disinformation in this area?

It is ludicrous I have to ask these questions, but somebody should.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 15, 2007)

Make a substantive reply MC5 - challenge what larry said - his sources, his interpretation - something. He's entirely right. Maybe this is the time and place to have that debate out in the open again given that there's a fair few new posters who take the searchlight line at face value?


----------



## audiotech (Oct 15, 2007)

Couldn't help yourself butchers could you?  

I can see perfectly well thankyou that there's nothing substantive to reply to - end of.


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Oct 15, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> I can see perfectly well thankyou that there's nothing substantive to reply to - end of.



utterly pathetic--and music to the ears of those like _Searchlight _who ply their trade by peddling disinformation.  As stated, acceptable for a naive liberal, but hardly from a socialist--still less a 'revolutionary' one.  I commend butcher's apron for seeing there are important issues here, but it is sad that MC5 & the other two have nothing to contribute.  I have chosen my words carefully--I would welcome genuine debate.  Shows the perils of the internet and its limitations I suppose....


----------



## audiotech (Oct 16, 2007)

Larry, my subscription to _Lobster_ ran out a few years ago. I'm tempted to subscribe to NFB now.  

I see there's no link anymore to your publication on the LUAF blog though?


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Oct 16, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> Larry, my subscription to _Lobster_ ran out a few years ago. I'm tempted to subscribe to NFB now.
> 
> I see there's no link anymore to your publication on the LUAF blog though?



we do a good deal on back issues....

Seriously, the link is still there but so far down you can hardly see it...And haven't updated the Lecomber saga.  Very sad.


----------



## The Black Hand (Oct 17, 2007)

There is some good anti fascist news from the streets of Nottinghamshire here;

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2007/10/383854.html

It shows direct action can still play a large part


----------



## The Black Hand (Oct 18, 2007)

Larry - what's your take on this book - 'Our Flag Stays Red'?

http://www.lwbooks.co.uk/books/archive/our_flag.html


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Oct 18, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> Larry - what's your take on this book - 'Our Flag Stays Red'?
> 
> http://www.lwbooks.co.uk/books/archive/our_flag.html



for a different epoch, and a different fascist enemy, a fine book.


----------



## The Black Hand (Oct 18, 2007)

Larry O'Hara said:
			
		

> for a different epoch, and a different fascist enemy, a fine book.



Might have to add it to my library then.


----------



## audiotech (Oct 18, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> There is some good anti fascist news from the streets of Nottinghamshire here;
> 
> http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2007/10/383854.html
> 
> It shows direct action can still play a large part



Indeedy.  



> It's like 1945 all over again' someone joked.


----------



## audiotech (Oct 19, 2007)

The BNP response.


----------



## JimPage (Oct 20, 2007)

BNP result from Thursday. Lancaster UAF desperately trying to persuade SWPers that "one swallow doesnt make a summer" , and that this result is a one off in a general pattern of BNP Decline and nothing much to worry about. 

This is a first time vote for them in the ward in an area where they are not yet formally organised.

South Derbyshire D.C. Church Gresley ward result:
Thursday October 18th

Lab 639
BNP 516 (35.4%)
Con 304


----------



## durruti02 (Oct 20, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> BNP result from Thursday. Lancaster UAF desperately trying to persuade SWPers that "one swallow doesnt make a summer" , and that this result is a one off in a general pattern of BNP Decline and nothing much to worry about.
> 
> This is a first time vote for them in the ward in an area where they are not yet formally organised.
> 
> ...



that is one big vote ..  

ex mining area .. and would have been NUM (?? )  i believe as was all Derbyshire 

p.s. keep it up the info service jim .. v.usefull


----------



## The Black Hand (Oct 20, 2007)

Fuck - bad result that. I dunno how far Ilkeston is - but our old friend Ian Stuart Donaldson and his goons used to pollute that area....

As for Derbyshire and NUM, yes it was. The problem is that the old left hasn't given birth to a new left yet. The media is giving the far right the propaganda to do well though. How far was the REd White and blue fest from this area? What concentrations and effort did they put into that result? If it is a lot then they won't be able to repeat that vote at an election where they always overstretch themselves...


----------



## JimPage (Oct 20, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> _Fuck - bad result that. I dunno how far Ilkeston is - but our old friend Ian Stuart Donaldson and his goons used to pollute that area....
> 
> As for Derbyshire and NUM, yes it was. The problem is that the old left hasn't given birth to a new left yet. The media is giving the far right the propaganda to do well though. How far was the REd White and blue fest from this area? What concentrations and effort did they put into that result? If it is a lot then they won't be able to repeat that vote at an election where they always overstretch themselves_...



reading the reports on the BNP Website the ward was fully canvassed- and yes they seemed to get a bit of help from their branch in NW Leicestershire, where they have 2 councillors. What annoys me is if Respect can get elected in Bolsover, a similar ex mining area, where on earth are the left in the area- why arent they standing candidates in areas like this?


----------



## The Black Hand (Oct 20, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> reading the reports on the BNP Website the ward was fully canvassed- and yes they seemed to get a bit of help from their branch in NW Leicestershire, where they have 2 councillors. What annoys me is if Respect can get elected in Bolsover, a similar ex mining area, where on earth are the left in the area- why arent they standing candidates in areas like this?



My own experience tells me they are getting old and ever shrinking in terms of personnel, ideas, and motivation. Saying that, I am currently connecting quite well up north with these people, and things may get moving again.

Durutti, as for Sunderland on top of the other reasons for BNP failure I have just learned of the GMB putting finance and staff into Sunderland some years ago (2003) and a usually reliable source said they got 'the BNP on the run'. Now, I will be checking this out in detail and further, when I meet the guy in mid November.


----------



## JimPage (Oct 20, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> My own experience tells me they are getting old and ever shrinking in terms of personnel, ideas, and motivation.



based on this result- and other recent ones- they are if anything tightening up their operation as to how to run an election campaign by way of canvassing and local leaflets (which i understand were about post office closures)  a 35% vote in a ward they havent been near before is not a bad start. the writing should have been on the wall that this was going to happen way back in 2004 when the BNP polled 9.6% accross the borough in the Euro elections


----------



## The Black Hand (Oct 21, 2007)

I was talking about the left in the area.


----------



## The Black Hand (Oct 22, 2007)

Look here - opposition to the BNP for a midlands by election coming up;
http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2007/10/384223.html

You may call these people old left, but this is probably an innacurate description. Sure - there will be old left there, but there are also those younger ones or people not yet aligned who may have helped out. There maybe some local anarchos involved too. It is an arrogant mistake to write off these people in advance.


----------



## The Black Hand (Oct 22, 2007)

Look at this - from an area they are supposedly doing well in - no show;

18th October
Wigan MBC, Wigan Central

Con 1013 (48.2; +3.9), Lab 827 (39.3; +6.2), Community Action 262 (12.5; +5.6), [BNP (0.0; -6.3)], [LD (0.0; -9.5)].

Majority 186. Turnout 22.8%. Con hold. Last fought 2007.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 22, 2007)

That doesn't mean they got 0% - it means that they didn't stand. It's not a particularly big deal when taken in the context of focusing on their best chances. The same night they achieved the very impressive 35% in derbyshire, which is far more significant than deciding not to stand in a ward where they had previously _only_ picked up 6% - and that we're even saying this is an indication of just how far they have come in the last decade. 

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=6624678&postcount=986


----------



## dash_two (Oct 23, 2007)

The real test for the BNP will be whether they're able to hold onto their gains and continue growing under a Conservative government. If they can, there is a good chance they will eventually attain the levels of support and local entrenchment enjoyed by European far right parties.


----------



## JimPage (Oct 26, 2007)

Another near miss for the fascists from yesterday....

Waltham Abbey TC Honey Lane Ward 25th October
Con 299
BNP 281 (28.5%)
LD 274
Lab 131

May 2007 result- in same ward but for Epping Forest DC, Con 636,
Liberal 240, BNP 225 (20.4%).


----------



## passthesalt (Oct 26, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> Another near miss for the fascists from yesterday....
> 
> Waltham Abbey TC Honey Lane Ward 25th October
> Con 299
> ...



I checked & got some percentage figures that might be helpful.

Con 299 (30.4%, -27.4%)

BNP 281 (28.5%, +8.1%)

LD 274 (27.8%, +6.0%)

Lab 131 (13.3%, +13.3%)

So the supposed "resurgent" Tory party (following their (Tory)  Conference) doesn't seem to have affected their (the fash) vote here. 

There was an anti fash campaign in the ward from the "Epping Forest Together" organisation (Searchlight) which looks like it might have swung a few votes against them. But bloody close !


----------



## durruti02 (Oct 26, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> Another near miss for the fascists from yesterday....
> 
> Waltham Abbey TC Honey Lane Ward 25th October
> Con 299
> ...



more of a lower m/c area these 2 seats than the recent midlands ones .. they had a councilllor in near by broxbourne for a while  .. i suspect if things go more tits up they could clear up in a lot of these m25 boroughs  

the 10-15%s seem to be drifting up to 20-25%s


----------



## The Black Hand (Oct 30, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> more of a lower m/c area these 2 seats than the recent midlands ones .. they had a councilllor in near by broxbourne for a while  .. i suspect if things go more tits up they could clear up in a lot of these m25 boroughs
> 
> the 10-15%s seem to be drifting up to 20-25%s



Not according to this result from the other day;

Sefton MBC, Manor

Con 922 (40.5; -7.6), LD John Gibson 769 (33.8; +13.4), Lab 419 (18.4; -13.1), BNP 94 (4.1; +4.1), UKIP 71 (3.1; +3.1).

Majority 153. Turnout 22.8%. Con gain from Lab. Last fought 2007.

The Tory vote drop was split by UKIP and the BNP with the Lab vote going Lib Dem.


----------



## audiotech (Oct 30, 2007)

Griffin having difficulty putting his point accross in Michigan.


----------



## durruti02 (Oct 30, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> Not according to this result from the other day;
> 
> Sefton MBC, Manor
> 
> ...



thats a better result .. but iwould not so simplistically equat changes in votes ... it is more complex than that .. you MAY be right but you may not be!


----------



## The Black Hand (Oct 31, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> Griffin having difficulty putting his point accross in Michigan.




Ha ha ha ha ha


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Nov 4, 2007)

Meanwhile, back in Blighty, interesting articles by Griffin & Butler on electoral strategy in October _Identity_

1) Going to stand women & media friendly (eg war veteran) candidates at next General Election

2) main electoral focus is to be on GLA & Euros, both of which they have high hopes of

...Sorry to intrude, you're free to get back to cackling now children...


----------



## passthesalt (Nov 5, 2007)

Larry O'Hara said:
			
		

> Meanwhile, back in Blighty, interesting articles by Griffin & Butler on electoral strategy in October _Identity_
> 
> 1) Going to stand women & media friendly (eg war veteran) candidates at next General Election
> 
> ...



Point 1 is a hope dependent on them finding suitable selection / numbers of candidates. Not much evidence of that so far - still infighting to choose their slate for the top up section of the GLA I understand,  let alone them identifying Euro Seats and getting non nutter candidates for them yet.

Point 2 has been obvious since the last GLA elections - even Searchlight  has (repeatedly) carried this. 

Most people accept that , with the demise of UKIP there appears to be a sizable section of London voters that seem to be "disillusioned" with the variety (or lack thereof) between the Lib/Con/Neu Lab versions of Toryism. The question is where do these punters go ? Abstain ? Fash ? or some Left alternative (an option that currently looks unlikely  )

But, if we don't do something, then it's not at all unlikely that at least one fash will be on the GLA next May.


----------



## The Black Hand (Dec 2, 2007)

Good news about the BNP being seen to AGAIN in Barnsley   

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2007/12/386901.html


----------



## soam (Dec 3, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> Good news about the BNP being seen to AGAIN in Barnsley
> 
> http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2007/12/386901.html



Good news indeed - so far the UAF opposition to the BNP appears to have been pretty inadequate. Have challenged them (BNP) a few times myself and had my photo taken as a result - hardly the actions of a legitimate political party!

It does appear to have rattled them - lots of discussion on the Barnsley nationalist site aboput setting up a security team etc - with a fair few contributions from Joe Owen.

Griffin was in town couple of weeks ago - it would seem that BNP are holding their meetings at The Fleets pub just outside the town centre

What is the situation on street sales in other parts of the UK - i cant imagine that there are many places where they would feel confident enough of support to sell openly on the streets?


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 3, 2007)

What was Joe Owens saying? General gist sort of thing


----------



## soam (Dec 3, 2007)

He seems to be urging BNP members to act in self defence, have a security team, and also to abandon street sales and concentrate on going door to door.

He repeats a lot of points he has posted on stormfront about how BNp should have martial arts trained teams in all areas to protect activists. and also that taking steriods doesn't make you hard!! 

Wont post a link but check out the Barnsley nationalist site for the full debate..

 Seems to be a split with some members favouring videoing opponents and reporting to police, others advocating street violence.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 3, 2007)

Cheers. Interesting. Esp as Owens was spitting bile towards the BNP (or at least the leadership) very recently. I'll check the full link later, but thanks for the precis.


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Dec 3, 2007)

Very interesting, too, that Chris Hill of Lancaster should be urging the collection of information useful to Special Branch on that thread.  Now, how come that doesn't surprise me??


----------



## soam (Dec 3, 2007)

Thought you may find this barnsley stuff of interest Larry  - its a situation that is ongoing and maybe should be seen in the context of remarks from Paul harris on the Barnsley BNP site about how BNP should prepare for violence in future, goading UAF for lack of opposition etc..


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## likesfish (Dec 3, 2007)

bwhahahaha bnp marital arts trained teams  
 had two wannabe arryan warriors try to join the ta worried the recruiting officer cause political extremists can't join was trying to find the paperwork but as the two members of the master race gave up on the 3 mile run.
 not came in  slow but trying.
 actually sat down and gave up  as it was too hard  
 no weapon training for them then


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## durruti02 (Dec 3, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> Good news about the BNP being seen to AGAIN in Barnsley
> 
> http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2007/12/386901.html



so how will that affect their recruiting and votes?


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## The Black Hand (Dec 4, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> so how will that affect their recruiting and votes?



That is an interesting question, which can only be answered by careful analysis. 

For example, if their vote goes down cos their activists haven't been out and about, then clearly it has had an effect. 

If there is no change to their vote, then it could be argued that it helped to contribute to keeping their vote static. 

IF the BNP are crying about it to the media and in their literature, it doesn't stop them getting out and about, and their is no other issue that comes forward in the election, AND their vote GOES UP, then it has had a negative effect. 

Time will tell.


----------



## durruti02 (Dec 4, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> That is an interesting question, which can only be answered by careful analysis.
> 
> For example, if their vote goes down cos their activists haven't been out and about, then clearly it has had an effect.
> 
> ...



so far the evidence in west yorks is that it has NO affect and maybe even increases the bnp vote


----------



## The Black Hand (Dec 4, 2007)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> so far the evidence in west yorks is that it has NO affect and maybe even increases the bnp vote



What evidence do you have for this?


----------



## The Black Hand (Dec 5, 2007)

Here's another BNP extremist with personal problems and issues - this really can't help their vote at all;

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/nottinghamshire/6128634.stm


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 5, 2007)

Well, since that story came out they've more than doubled their number of councillors and put in a series of very strong performances nationally. That sort of Searchlight 'expose them and they'll be destroyed' approah isn't working and hasn't been working for a long time. It can't deal with the social roots of the BNPs rise, what it can do though is disguise them or pretend that they're not important and not the driving factor behind the things we witnessed over the last few years.


----------



## The Black Hand (Dec 5, 2007)

butchersapron said:
			
		

> Well, since that story came out they've more than doubled their number of councillors and put in a series of very strong performances nationally. That sort of Searchlight 'expose them and they'll be destroyed' approah isn't working and hasn't been working for a long time. It can't deal with the social roots of the BNPs rise, what it can do though is disguise them or pretend that they're not important and not the driving factor behind the things we witnessed over the last few years.



Incidentally, before I disagree with you. Have you got your copy of Mayday yet? You should have by now. I haven't got the Dvd btw.

  Doh!! New thinking new thinking. 

I've seen this line of argument used sooooo many times before I am not sure that it is correct. It is used in a very woolly way, I would like to see proof of this position, and not speculation. Because that is all there is at the minute. It would have to be done far more scientifically for me to accept it so categorically.

There are far far more and other things which happen that affect the BNP vote for the issue mentioned to be seen to have the effect you claim for it. In short, there are far more variables involved which have not been isolated or otherwise contained to allow the claim of straightforward causal effect you identify, there are associational connections that is true, but that should not be enough for a thinking anarchist or Marxist.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 5, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> Incidentally, before I disagree with you. Have you got your copy of Mayday yet? You should have by now. I haven't got the Dvd btw.
> 
> Doh!! New thinking new thinking.
> 
> ...



Not yet, our postie seems to pile them up and post them in a big lot all at once. DVD went yesterday.

It's _at worst partially_ correct as evidenced by the contunued rise in BNP votes. It stopped nothing expect maybe in one area that they may not have stood on - and they've been doing well in that area anyway.

Mate, i don't wish to be rude - but make a fucking point here. Say what you mean in easy understandable langauge then we, and others, can talk.


----------



## nightowl (Dec 5, 2007)

MC5 said:
			
		

> Griffin having difficulty putting his point accross in Michigan.




an interesting one i noticed while watching those two


----------



## EddyBlack (Dec 6, 2007)

A friend of mine has joined the BNP. He started telling me about it and I said, 'but they are racist arn't they?'.

He refused to accept this, telling me about policies that they had such as, leaving the European Union, and stopping the mass immigration that we have. 
He explained that they are merely about putting Britain and the British people first.

Whilst these policies are not racist, what are the strongest points that I could argue to him to show that they are in fact racist. Do they have any clearly racist policies or can Nick Griffin be shown to be a racist?


----------



## The Black Hand (Dec 6, 2007)

butchersapron said:
			
		

> Not yet, our postie seems to pile them up and post them in a big lot all at once. DVD went yesterday.
> 
> It's _at worst partially_ correct as evidenced by the contunued rise in BNP votes. It stopped nothing expect maybe in one area that they may not have stood on - and they've been doing well in that area anyway...
> 
> make a point here. Say what you mean in easy understandable langauge then we, and others, can talk.



I am not convinced that the 'expose them' line has been unsuccesful in holding the BNP vote down. What happens in areas where the 'expose them' line is not tried at all? What happens to their vote then? You have to carefully control for these different influences on outcomes, the possibilities of different influences are always there.

I agree nationally it appears to have little effect, but I would like to know the extent or not of its impact. Also, just because the 'expose them' article maybe on the bbc, and/or local paper, does not mean that people have read it generally or in a particular ward. 

Therefore, to account for the BNP going up you would have to argue and show that the 'expose them' line has definately been tried across an entire ward via leafletting, and still the vote went up. Then there is still tremendous difficulties in assuming WHY this is the case, you would have to collect the ward BNP leaflets, look at stories in the national press and on TV for the entire election period, and then make educated guesses. 

However, the expressed reasons for a BNP vote are of course the analytical golddust, but even here you would have to think carefully about what was said and the way it was said, because people sometimes do not say exactly what they mean, e.g. they may try to consciously disguise their racism as an 'housing issue', or they can genuinely intend to decieve (eg. deny they voted BNP, but 'from what I gather the reasons are'...)...  

Paraphrasing Marx with extras - Historical racism, the media and capitalism weigh like a deadweight upon the brains of the living and the choices they make.


----------



## The Black Hand (Dec 7, 2007)

I believe I have explained myself clearly, that means I am due a reply. Ta.


----------



## glenquagmire (Dec 7, 2007)

Anyone notice that Labour won a council by-election last night in Sandwell beating the BNP incumbent on a massive swing?

The clock's counting to the first numpty who claims there is no difference between the Labour Party and the BNP.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Dec 7, 2007)

EddyBlack said:
			
		

> A friend of mine has joined the BNP. He started telling me about it and I said, 'but they are racist arn't they?'.
> 
> He refused to accept this, telling me about policies that they had such as, leaving the European Union, and stopping the mass immigration that we have.
> He explained that they are merely about putting Britain and the British people first.
> ...


Butchers

I don't know this guy from somebody down the street, but I am guessing he isn't a revolutionary.  So how would you answer him?  I am seriously interested.


----------



## The Black Hand (Dec 7, 2007)

glenquagmire said:
			
		

> Anyone notice that Labour won a council by-election last night in Sandwell beating the BNP incumbent on a massive swing?
> 
> The clock's counting to the first numpty who claims there is no difference between the Labour Party and the BNP.



Well that is good news... I would like to know why though before I call it very good news...

I agree with you on point 2 - fucking ultra leftists...


----------



## The Black Hand (Dec 7, 2007)

Here is some analysis and the result;

http://www.voiceofreason.org.uk/blog/?p=232


----------



## JimPage (Dec 9, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> Here is some analysis and the result;
> 
> http://www.voiceofreason.org.uk/blog/?p=232



Attica

since when did you start using known searchlight narks like VOR for Analysis?
The analysis put out by VOR/Lancaster UAF is in most parts , simply wrong. Every single BNP result,to them,can be spun into a bad one- they even managed to find light at the end of thetunnel after the BNP polled 20% in Shepshed by election and 32% in South Derbyshire the other month

VOR is now becoming a liability to antifascism


----------



## The Black Hand (Dec 9, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> Attica
> 
> since when did you start using known searchlight narks like VOR for Analysis?
> The analysis put out by VOR/Lancaster UAF is in most parts , simply wrong. Every single BNP result,to them,can be spun into a bad one- they even managed to find light at the end of thetunnel after the BNP polled 20% in Shepshed by election and 32% in South Derbyshire the other month
> ...



I said 'here is _some_ analysis'. I put the link up to stimulate debate, it was NOT a sign of my adoption of such analysis, 'some' is a neutral descriptive word...  

I suggest you read an article in Mayday magazine called "Autonomous anti fascism" because I think more like that than anything else. 
Cheers.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Dec 9, 2007)

EddyBlack said:
			
		

> He explained that they are merely about putting Britain and the British people first.


if gb peeps 1st, who 2nd, ask him. also gb muslims 1st too? who is gb peeps.


----------



## The Black Hand (Dec 9, 2007)

There is a good anti fascist letter in the Northern Echo - published yesterday;

http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/features/letters/display.var.1890992.0.bnp.php


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Dec 9, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> There is a good anti fascist letter in the Northern Echo - published yesterday;
> 
> http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/features/letters/display.var.1890992.0.bnp.php



Fair enough--although of course the same rag chose not to publish one I sent critiquing Griffin's Jewish policy...


----------



## The Black Hand (Dec 9, 2007)

Larry O'Hara said:
			
		

> Fair enough--although of course the same rag chose not to publish one I sent critiquing Griffin's Jewish policy...



It's a very localised paper... your piece sounds too good for them... I think the editor will have thought 'that's too much info'.


----------



## The Black Hand (Dec 9, 2007)

More BNP expulsions...!! WTF is Griffin playing at?

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2007/12/387411.html?c=on#c185915


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Dec 9, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> It's a very localised paper... your piece sounds too good for them... I think the editor will have thought 'that's too much info'.



you read it? I am impressed...


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Dec 9, 2007)

Attica said:
			
		

> More BNP expulsions...!! WTF is Griffin playing at?
> 
> http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2007/12/387411.html?c=on#c185915



or WTF is SB asset Sadie Graham playing at...


----------



## The Black Hand (Dec 10, 2007)

Larry O'Hara said:
			
		

> you read it? I am impressed...



Educated guesstimate


----------



## The Black Hand (Dec 10, 2007)

JimPage said:
			
		

> Attica
> 
> since when did you start using known searchlight narks like VOR for Analysis?
> The analysis put out by VOR/Lancaster UAF is in most parts , simply wrong. Every single BNP result,to them,can be spun into a bad one- they even managed to find light at the end of thetunnel after the BNP polled 20% in Shepshed by election and 32% in South Derbyshire the other month
> ...



I have had a chance to have a quick look at the results there, and the far right vote appears to have split quite evenly between Labour and the Tories... Of course I am aware I need far more information about the social characteristics of the ward and info about how the election was fought...


----------



## The Black Hand (Dec 16, 2007)

Here is another totally pitiful BNP result;

Election Results: Thursday 13th December 2007.

Harrow LBC, Canons

Con 1208 (56.7; -11.1), Lab 389 (18.3; -0.1), LD Anne Diamond 296 (13.9; +0.1), Ind 182 (8.5; +8.5), BNP 56 (2.6; +2.6).

Majority 819. Turnout 24.0%. Con hold. Last fought 2006.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 21, 2007)

Cheers to jim for figures

Yesterdays results: 

Castle Point Council St Mary’s Ward 
Thursday 20th December 2007 
(2 seats) 
(Con) 509 
(Lab) 480 
(Con) 461 
(Lab) 456 
(BNP) 253 
(BNP) 234 

BNP Percentage: 20.4% 

Shepshed Town Council East Ward 
Thursday 20th December 2007 
(2 seats) 
(Lab) 275 
(Lab) 259 
(Lib-Dem) 193 
(Con) 187 
(BNP) 183 
(BNP) 173 
(Lib-Dem) 155 

BNP Percentage: 22.1%


----------



## audiotech (Dec 23, 2007)

Some analysis of recent bye-elections.



> During November & December there were 33 byelections to "principal area" local authorities (ie excluding parish councils)
> 
> The BNP fought 7
> 
> ...


----------



## durruti02 (Feb 3, 2008)

http://www. bnp. org.uk/2008/01/21/100000-leaflets-250-activists-the-bnp%e2%80%99s-biggest-ever-push-in-london/

broken link to the 'big push' LOL .. worrying but to get 250 people they had to bus em in from all over the country ..


----------



## audiotech (Feb 3, 2008)

durruti02 said:


> http://www. bnp. org.uk/2008/01/21/100000-leaflets-250-activists-the-bnp%e2%80%99s-biggest-ever-push-in-london/
> 
> broken link to the 'big push' LOL .. worrying but to get 250 people they had to bus em in from all over the country ..



An overestimate of course. 

About 110 to 150 turned up.


----------



## The Black Hand (Feb 3, 2008)

MC5 said:


> An overestimate of course.
> 
> About 110 to 150 turned up.



Searchlight say 70 turned up Also here is Searchlight on the latest accounts from the BNP;
"Membership is stated as 6,281, down from the 6,502 shown in the 2005 accounts and a far cry from the 10,000 figure currently being bandied around by the BNP leadership. At the time of the BNP leadership election the voting figures indicated that the party had 8,604 members but this was widely thought to be an exaggeration."

Anybody got any comments?


----------



## JHE (Feb 3, 2008)

I expect they lost quite a few members in the recent spat-split-expulsions thingy.  (Whether that is reflected in the 'accounts' I don't know.)


----------



## durruti02 (Feb 3, 2008)

Attica said:


> Searchlight say 70 turned up Also here is Searchlight on the latest accounts from the BNP;
> "Membership is stated as 6,281, down from the 6,502 shown in the 2005 accounts and a far cry from the 10,000 figure currently being bandied around by the BNP leadership. At the time of the BNP leadership election the voting figures indicated that the party had 8,604 members but this was widely thought to be an exaggeration."
> 
> Anybody got any comments?



er that you believe searchlight?!  

( in the pics there are not that many mind )


----------



## audiotech (Feb 3, 2008)

Membership was about 7,000. Probably down to around 6,500 now.


----------



## audiotech (Feb 3, 2008)

Attica said:


> Searchlight say 70 turned up



That photo does indicate around 70.


----------



## scott_forester (Feb 3, 2008)

Attica said:


> Anybody got any comments?



I'll probably get shouted at,  but I wish the left wing media would stop bigging the BNP up as a threat to our way of life. It just encourages people to think they are a legitimate protest vote for shock affect. Whenever they put anyone in front of the camera who isn't Nick Griffin they look like a bunch of fuckwits. I still fondly remember a BNP mayoral candidate saying he could scrap the congestion charges on BBC Radio London if we got rid of all 'illegals'. The biggest 4th party IIRC is the Greens who get zero coverage which lets the BNP keep pretending they are on the verge of a breakthrough, rather than a breakdown.


----------



## militant atheist (Feb 3, 2008)

I know what you mean Scott - but what's the alternative?  If we dismiss and ignore them, that to my mind, is even more dangerous.  The BNP are good at offering simple and 'plausable' solutions to real problems of resource allocation and identity.  There is a potentially significant market for their ideas, all ably assisted by their 'recruiting sargeant' (Griffin's words) the tabloid press.


----------



## scott_forester (Feb 3, 2008)

militant atheist said:


> I know what you mean Scott - but what's the alternative?  If we dismiss and ignore them, that to my mind, is even more dangerous.  The BNP are good at offering simple and 'plausable' solutions to real problems of resource allocation and identity.  There is a potentially significant market for their ideas, all ably assisted by their 'recruiting sargeant' (Griffin's words) the tabloid press.



I would ignore them, maybe campaign against them where they stand.


----------



## The Black Hand (Feb 4, 2008)

scott_forester said:


> I'll probably get shouted at,  but I wish the left wing media would stop bigging the BNP up as a threat to our way of life. It just encourages people to think they are a legitimate protest vote for shock affect. Whenever they put anyone in front of the camera who isn't Nick Griffin they look like a bunch of fuckwits. I still fondly remember a BNP mayoral candidate saying he could scrap the congestion charges on BBC Radio London if we got rid of all 'illegals'. The biggest 4th party IIRC is the Greens who get zero coverage which lets the BNP keep pretending they are on the verge of a breakthrough, rather than a breakdown.


Very sensible Scott.


----------



## The Black Hand (Feb 4, 2008)

durruti02 said:


> er that you believe searchlight?!
> 
> ( in the pics there are not that many mind )



I am bigger than that I post up stuff which is relevant to debate (as I have said many times before) it is NOT an indication of support for those ideas...


----------



## crossbow (Feb 10, 2008)

*anti bnp waller's*

If those anti-bnp moaners were to allow the bnp to have some dialog then maybe the air could be cleared once and for all, there must be thousands of British people sick to the back teeth of listening to theses anti's moaning on about the fashist bnp, well then why is it that us normal Brits can't hear for ourselves and make our own decisions as to whether WE like them or hate them! What are these ANTI's afraid of?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Feb 10, 2008)

no thanks, none today


----------



## The Black Hand (Feb 10, 2008)

FridgeMagnet said:


> no thanks, none today



Well done mod.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Feb 10, 2008)

scott_forester said:


> I'll probably get shouted at,  but I wish the left wing media would stop bigging the BNP up as a threat to our way of life. It just encourages people to think they are a legitimate protest vote for shock affect. Whenever they put anyone in front of the camera who isn't Nick Griffin they look like a bunch of fuckwits. I still fondly remember a BNP mayoral candidate saying he could scrap the congestion charges on BBC Radio London if we got rid of all 'illegals'. The biggest 4th party IIRC is the Greens who get zero coverage which lets the BNP keep pretending they are on the verge of a breakthrough, rather than a breakdown.



I agree that coverage of the nazis is disproportionate. I dont think it is just the left media that are guilty of it. There is a fetish for fascism across the media, including at the BBC. They will broadcast a council bye-election result concerning the nazis and never ever one concerning a mainstream party or The Greens as you rightly say.

As a member of The Green Party I have asked the BBC if they dont cover us because we are not racist enough. Truth is that in green issues DA gets coverage, substantial debate does not.

Anyway, witting or unwitting promotion of the fascist agenda is demonstrated in this disturbing anecdote wot I heard from a very reliable source:

In Bognor Regis there was a single fascist candidate standing in 1 ward at the local elections. The local rag devoted the front page and 3 inside pages to the issue. This included a full re-print of the "where we stand" bile from their website

Crossbow: What most people are afraid of with the BNP is a lying fascist organisation that is disproportionately populated with criminals and whose elected representives are famous for their uselessness. They are fearful of the demonstrated evidence that where BNP activity goes up, so does violence.

I have questioned "no platform" before now on U75 and the response persuaded me (for now at least) that it is a regretable but wise policy in the circumstances.


----------



## bittersweet42 (Feb 11, 2008)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> I agree that coverage of the nazis is disproportionate. I dont think it is just the left media that are guilty of it. There is a fetish for fascism across the media, including at the BBC. They will broadcast a council bye-election result concerning the nazis and never ever one concerning a mainstream party or The Greens as you rightly say.
> 
> As a member of The Green Party I have asked the BBC if they dont cover us because we are not racist enough. Truth is that in green issues DA gets coverage, substantial debate does not.
> 
> ...



do not all tv and radio and newpapers just write say and do what they think is right for the people to here. you say people think the bnp is populated with criminals ect, I personally feel that all goverment bodys are full of a variety of complete and utter liars, cheats ect. this world has opened up a lot in the media we have seen all sorts from men of the cloth praying on children to politicians committing adultery as I said it a hard one to know who to beleive in this day and age. The world is messed up not just britain and will it ever be cleansed of the evil that walks it. (mmm well I dont think so).


----------



## nino_savatte (Feb 11, 2008)

I think we have another one here. ^^


----------



## The Black Hand (Feb 11, 2008)

nino_savatte said:


> I think we have another one here. ^^


You could well be right Nino.


----------



## co-op (Feb 11, 2008)

scott_forester said:


> I'll probably get shouted at,  but I wish the left wing media would stop bigging the BNP up as a threat to our way of life. It just encourages people to think they are a legitimate protest vote for shock affect. Whenever they put anyone in front of the camera who isn't Nick Griffin they look like a bunch of fuckwits. I still fondly remember a BNP mayoral candidate saying he could scrap the congestion charges on BBC Radio London if we got rid of all 'illegals'. The biggest 4th party IIRC is the Greens who get zero coverage which lets the BNP keep pretending they are on the verge of a breakthrough, rather than a breakdown.



I've got some sympathy with this p.o.v, I don't see fascism as an active threat at the moment in the UK.

But it bubbles away - you say the Greens are the 4th biggest party, but in the last mayoral election here in London they were beaten into 5th place by the BNP on first preference votes, a really depressing fact for me.

In fact - even if you aren't fussed by the elections except to hate the BNP, OR if you are a Boris or Ken supporter, this is a good reason to vote green on your first preference for Mayor in London. It's pretty embarassing to have a shower like the BNP beating the Green Party in a supposed 'World City'...

Moreover, the BNP missed out on picking up a 'list' seat in the GLA (ie one of the seats allocated by PR) by a whisker last time round (they got 4.71% - the threshold is 5%). Just by turning out and voting ( - for someone else obviously! -) you reduce their percentage vote in the list.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 11, 2008)

scott_forester said:


> I'll probably get shouted at,  but I wish the left wing media would stop bigging the BNP up as a threat to our way of life. It just encourages people to think they are a legitimate protest vote for shock affect. Whenever they put anyone in front of the camera who isn't Nick Griffin they look like a bunch of fuckwits. I still fondly remember a BNP mayoral candidate saying he could scrap the congestion charges on BBC Radio London if we got rid of all 'illegals'. The biggest 4th party IIRC is the Greens who get zero coverage which lets the BNP keep pretending they are on the verge of a breakthrough, rather than a breakdown.



What left-wing media scott?


----------



## Joe Reilly (Feb 11, 2008)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> They are fearful of the demonstrated evidence that where BNP activity goes up, so does violence.




Oh yeah, what 'demonstrated evidence' is this then?


----------



## The Black Hand (Feb 11, 2008)

Joe Reilly said:


> Oh yeah, what 'demonstrated evidence' is this then?




There's plenty around Joe.


----------



## LLETSA (Feb 11, 2008)

Attica said:


> There's plenty around Joe.





One minute you say they're no threat, the next they're preparing for Kristallnacht.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Feb 12, 2008)

LLETSA said:


> One minute you say they're no threat, the next they're preparing for Kristallnacht.



I know. 'General' Attica all over. Routinely and falsely accuses others of hyper-ventilating over BNP potential in working class areas and then gets a hard on when when one of their stalls is kicked over in Barnsley. Go figure.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Feb 12, 2008)

Attica said:


> There's plenty around Joe.



Go on then.Your the fucking academic you keep telling everybody. Produce some stats.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Feb 12, 2008)

For one thing the links to C18 might just have been a bad dream. But I fear not.

The below is just members and doesnt account for violence and intimidation committed by the far greater numbers of people who are sympathetic to them and inspired by their occasional successes.

http://www.hopenothate.org.uk/BNP_a_party_of_convictions


----------



## Joe Reilly (Feb 12, 2008)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> For one thing the links to C18 might just have been a bad dream. But I fear not.



The links between 'C18' and who?


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Feb 12, 2008)

Joe Reilly said:


> The links between 'C18' and who?



Take a wild guess.


----------



## co-op (Feb 12, 2008)

LLETSA said:


> One minute you say they're no threat, the next they're preparing for Kristallnacht.



I don't think there's some massive contradiction here. At the electoral level the BNP are a joke, and I'd also argue that racism has been given a solid pasting as an ideology in the last few decades - even the fairly openly racist conventional right-wing media (egThe Daily Mail, The Daily Telegraph) have renounced it quite formally. 

They are very weak and there's no real evidence that I can see that's going to change dramatically or soon.


But where there is an active local branch - yep - an increase in local tension and violence is an almost inevitable outcome. Part of the reason for their marginal status is that they can't quite straddle the 'street-thug vs respectable local councillor' schism, and in the end the 'street thug' tendency wins out every time. That can be pretty unpleasant in your local high street on a face-to-face basis.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Feb 12, 2008)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Take a wild guess.




There is quite enough 'guessing' passed off as analysis on here already.


----------



## LLETSA (Feb 12, 2008)

co-op said:


> But where there is an active local branch - yep - an increase in local tension and violence is an almost inevitable outcome. Part of the reason for their marginal status is that they can't quite straddle the 'street-thug vs respectable local councillor' schism, and in the end the 'street thug' tendency wins out every time. That can be pretty unpleasant in your local high street on a face-to-face basis.





Is anybody going to produce some evidence for this sort of thing, or what?


----------



## The Black Hand (Feb 12, 2008)

LLETSA said:


> One minute you say they're no threat, the next they're preparing for Kristallnacht.



You are confusing the issue for whatever reason. There IS a difference between the BNP and who does the racism when they stand in an area. It still means they are a very very long way from power...


----------



## The Black Hand (Feb 12, 2008)

Joe Reilly said:


> There is quite enough 'guessing' passed off as analysis on here already.


Yes, and you are the chief culprit.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Feb 12, 2008)

Attica said:


> Yes, and you are the chief culprit.




Produce the 'evidence' you blowhard.


----------



## LLETSA (Feb 12, 2008)

Attica said:


> You are confusing the issue for whatever reason. There IS a difference between the BNP and who does the racism when they stand in an area. It still means they are a very very long way from power...





Who said anything about power?

All people have done is ask for concrete evidence of this alleged connection between BNP activity and a rise in racist violence.


----------



## audiotech (Feb 13, 2008)

LLETSA said:


> Who said anything about power?
> 
> All people have done is ask for concrete evidence of this alleged connection between BNP activity and a rise in racist violence.



There will be figures for different areas and accross the whole country showing data for racist violence - most of it collected and analysed by the police. Not always an accurate source.

There can be no "concrete evidence" showing the connection you describe. Nevertheless, I'm pretty certain there'll be some anecdotal evidence around.


----------



## LLETSA (Feb 13, 2008)

MC5 said:


> There will be figures for different areas and accross the whole country showing data for racist violence - most of it collected and analysed by the police. Not always an accurate source.
> 
> There can be no "concrete evidence" showing the connection you describe. Nevertheless, I'm pretty certain there'll be some anecdotal evidence around.





So pretty much nowt then?


----------



## cockneyrebel (Feb 13, 2008)

LLETSA I'm sure you'd accept that the BNP are a racist party and it is one of the  significant reasons why someone would vote for the BNP. For instance I doubt you'd get many anti-racists or black and Asian people voting BNP (I know you always get the odd nut job, but I'm saying in general).

As such a rise in the vote for the BNP would probably go hand in hand with rising racism generally. And if there is a rise in racism the chances are that there will also be a rise in racist attacks.


----------



## audiotech (Feb 13, 2008)

LLETSA said:


> So pretty much nowt then?



No, I repeat:



> There can be no "concrete evidence" showing the connection you describe. Nevertheless, I'm pretty certain there'll be some anecdotal evidence around.


----------



## LLETSA (Feb 14, 2008)

cockneyrebel said:


> LLETSA I'm sure you'd accept that the BNP are a racist party and it is one of the  significant reasons why someone would vote for the BNP. For instance I doubt you'd get many anti-racists or black and Asian people voting BNP (I know you always get the odd nut job, but I'm saying in general).
> 
> As such a rise in the vote for the BNP would probably go hand in hand with rising racism generally. And if there is a rise in racism the chances are that there will also be a rise in racist attacks.





The point is not that a rise in racism leads to a rise in racist attacks-just that routine claims that increased BNP acivity automatically leads to a rise in racist violence are difficult to swallow without concrete proof. After all, one of the curious features of today's society is that a far-right, racially motivated party gets an unprecedentedly high vote at a time when, across society, overt racism is lower than at any time previously and a generation of those of immigrant stock has grown up containing people who are quite prepared to dish out their own, often racially-based violence.


----------



## Jografer (Feb 14, 2008)

http://www.obv.org.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=339&Itemid=108


----------



## Jografer (Feb 14, 2008)

LLETSA said:


> After all, one of the curious features of today's society is that a far-right, racially motivated party gets an unprecedentedly high vote at a time when, across society, overt racism is lower than at any time previously



Don't agree that it is curious, the bnp plays on the idea that the liberal consensus is a metropolitan myth, which in turn massages the self-esteem of racists, who think they're not alone...


----------



## The Black Hand (Feb 14, 2008)

Jografer said:


> Don't agree that it is curious, the bnp plays on the idea that the liberal consensus is a metropolitan myth, which in turn massages the self-esteem of racists, who think they're not alone...



We agree


----------



## The Black Hand (Feb 14, 2008)

LLETSA said:


> So pretty much nowt then?


There's plenty of anecdotal evidence around - too much in fact, so that I know you and Joe will have come across it. You are right, there has been no serious study of the connections, but they are there. I am saying *there certainly is associational evidence of such a link. *

As for a direct causal link I would have to do such a study myself (or read somebody elses) to say there is one.


----------



## The Black Hand (Feb 14, 2008)

Joe Reilly said:


> Produce the 'evidence' you blowhard.



You have been around too long not to have come across it - eg. you must read Searchlight etc...


----------



## audiotech (Feb 14, 2008)

Attica said:


> There's plenty of anecdotal evidence around - too much in fact, so that I know you and Joe will have come across it. You are right, there has been no serious study of the connections...



A report published in 1993 ('Community Action Legal Remedies') published by Anti-Racist Alliance,  stated that when the BNP moved to the Bexley area in 1989, there were four racist murders and violent attacks on black people increased by 140 per cent. I acknowledge the report was published some time ago.

There was also another report published at an earlier time (late 1970's) by Stepney Trades Council called 'Blood on Our Streets' which documented a high number of violent racist attacks. The activities of the NF were at their height at the time.


----------



## tbaldwin (Feb 14, 2008)

MC5 said:


> A report published in 1993 ('Community Action Legal Remedies') published by Anti-Racist Alliance,  stated that when the BNP moved to the Bexley area in 1989, there were four racist murders and violent attacks on black people increased by 140 per cent. I acknowledge the report was published some time ago.
> 
> There was also another report published at an earlier time (late 1970's) by Stepney Trades Council called 'Blood on Our Streets' which documented a high number of violent racist attacks. The activities of the NF were at their height at the time.



As back up for your arguement i suggest you think of something better than evidence from a totally discredited bunch of shitbags like ARA.


----------



## The Black Hand (Feb 14, 2008)

tbaldwin said:


> As back up for your arguement i suggest you think of something better than evidence from a totally discredited bunch of shitbags like ARA.




Perhaps so, but you can't argue with the evidence though. 4 racist murders in an area they've moved into cannot be wished away. 

Admitedly on its own it is only _associational_ evidence - which means these facts have merely happened in the same area. However, i think there comes a point (and this is where a serious report is needed) when the weight of such evidence, including other examples, becomes too common to be merely coincidence. It would need some statistical number crunching but it certainly could be written, I could write it if somebody paid us


----------



## audiotech (Feb 14, 2008)

File on Four podcast on the BNP's finances.


----------



## audiotech (Feb 14, 2008)

tbaldwin said:


> As back up for your arguement i suggest you think of something better than evidence from a totally discredited bunch of shitbags like ARA.



Have you read any of the reports I cited?


----------



## Joe Reilly (Feb 14, 2008)

MC5 said:


> A report published in 1993 ('Community Action Legal Remedies') published by Anti-Racist Alliance,  stated that when the BNP moved to the Bexley area in 1989, there were four racist murders and violent attacks on black people increased by 140 per cent. I acknowledge the report was published some time ago.
> 
> There was also another report published at an earlier time (late 1970's) by Stepney Trades Council called 'Blood on Our Streets' which documented a high number of violent racist attacks. The activities of the NF were at their height at the time.




Such an example ignores the fact that the BNP physical force strategy has long been abandoned and the tactics and strategies are entirely different today. Back then it was possible then to show a causal link between where key BNP activists actually _lived_ and a cluster of attacks in the immediate surrounding area. But that was then, this is now. To claim that nothing has changed: 'the brutes is suits' approach, is frankly absurd.


----------



## LLETSA (Feb 14, 2008)

What, exactly, are people trying to claim? That BNP members participate in significant numbers of racist attacks in areas where they are making headway?  (Which would be counter-productive, for obvious reasons.) Or that where they receive a high vote, sections of the local population spontaneously band together to attack non-whites?


----------



## The Black Hand (Feb 14, 2008)

Joe Reilly said:


> Such an example ignores the fact that the BNP physical force strategy has long been abandoned and the tactics and strategies are entirely different today. Back then it was possible then to show a causal link between where key BNP activists actually _lived_ and a cluster of attacks in the immediate surrounding area. But that was then, this is now. To claim that nothing has changed: 'the brutes is suits' approach, is frankly absurd.



So you are looking for a report, written since 2000, on this subject. Again, I'm offering to write it


----------



## audiotech (Feb 14, 2008)

Joe Reilly said:


> Such an example ignores the fact that the BNP physical force strategy has long been abandoned and the tactics and strategies are entirely different today. Back then it was possible then to show a causal link between where key BNP activists actually _lived_ and a cluster of attacks in the immediate surrounding area. But that was then, this is now. To claim that nothing has changed: 'the brutes is suits' approach, is frankly absurd.



Joe peleeze!




			
				MC5 said:
			
		

> I acknowledge the report was published some time ago.



Which is acknowledging a change is it not? 

The apparent success of the "BNP brand", as their hacks like to refer to it, is the change from the thuggish NF image and reality then, compared to reality in the here and now. That's not hard to fathom Jim.

However, I get the impression that "brand BNP" is becoming increasingly tainted. So much so, that a layer of the 'super activists' (such members they rely on for momentum) are lining up to taint it still further.


----------



## audiotech (Feb 14, 2008)

LLETSA said:


> What, exactly, are people trying to claim? That BNP members participate in significant numbers of racist attacks in areas where they are making headway?  (Which would be counter-productive, for obvious reasons.) Or that where they receive a high vote, sections of the local population spontaneously band together to attack non-whites?



The latter happened very recently on a housing estate near where I work, a large group attacked a black family who had recently moved there. 17 men were arrested and later sentenced for racist violence towards the family (including children and older people) who were attending a barbecue. Baseball bats and other weapons were being carried by the men.

There was a regional BNP meeting held in a pub not far from said estate only recently. Some people inside the meeting were threatened and a glass was smashed to heighten the threat.


----------



## durruti02 (Feb 14, 2008)

Joe Reilly said:


> 'the brutes is suits' approach, is frankly absurd.



and their response, which is very popular ( another missed opportunity for the left ) is this 

liars$buggersand$thieves.blogspot.com

(link broken)


----------



## LLETSA (Feb 14, 2008)

MC5 said:


> The latter happened very recently on a housing estate near where I work, a large group attacked a black family who had recently moved there. 17 men were arrested and later sentenced for racist violence towards the family (including children and older people) who were attending a barbecue. Baseball bats and other weapons were being carried by the men.
> 
> There was a regional BNP meeting held in a pub not far from said estate only recently. Some people inside the meeting were threatened and a glass was smashed to heighten the threat.





Which event took place first? And where was this?


----------



## audiotech (Feb 15, 2008)

LLETSA said:


> Which event took place first? And where was this?



Here.

and

Here.

The pub mentioned is not in the city centre as stated, it is in fact near the Gipton estate which leads through to the Seacroft estate where the attack on the Angolan family took place. The point that the BNP uses it for regular meetings is correct. The NF also used the same watering hole for many years for their meetings.


----------



## audiotech (Feb 15, 2008)

Stretton ward, East Staffordshire Borough Council result (percentages in brackets):

Con 661 (36.89)
Lab 366 (20.42)
BNP 327 (18.25)
PA 233 (13.00)
LibD 205 (11.44)

Total 1792 (28% turnout).


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 16, 2008)

Yet another terrible result for the BNP.


----------



## The Black Hand (Feb 16, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Yet another terrible result for the BNP that show it is has no future in this country.



Yet another terribly simple post which shows no imagination.


----------



## JimPage (Feb 18, 2008)

MC5 said:


> Stretton ward, East Staffordshire Borough Council result (percentages in brackets):
> 
> Con 661 (36.89)
> Lab 366 (20.42)
> ...



the PA lot are the remnants of Veritas- Kilroy Silks crowd

Any reports of BNP out and about for the GLA Elections in London this weekend? Fascist sites reportt they were out in Havering, Hillingdon and Redbridge


----------



## greenman (Feb 23, 2008)

Seems like the three fash and a dog "union" was due to have a meeting in Birmingham today:

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2008/02/392086.html


----------



## JimPage (Feb 26, 2008)

Forthcoming by election candidates in Rugby, Chichester, Harrow and Middlesbrough. First indications appearring that however their splits have effected them this may not translate into reduced numbers of candidates, other than in Yorkshire and NW England


----------



## The Black Hand (Mar 1, 2008)

Here is a pretty impressive (in terms of volume) range of action lined up in London against the BNP;

http://www.hopenothate.org.uk/Campaign_diary_2008


----------



## JimPage (Mar 1, 2008)

The Searchlight campaign Attica promotes here you can take or leave (i prefer leave as i dont commaburate with the stare) but it is aimed, as far as i can see, as solely mobilising the BME vote- and not winning arguements in the wards where the BNP are strong

Take Newham as one good exmaple. Why are they mobilising in Stratford while the bulk of the BNP Support is in 3 Canning Town wards.

Also,BNP have been out leafletting for the elections in London since last November- and may be well ahead of what antifascists are putting out. Has anyone put out any Antifascist leaflets yet?


----------



## The Black Hand (Mar 2, 2008)

JimPage said:


> The Searchlight campaign Attica promotes here you can take or leave (i prefer leave as i dont commaburate with the stare) but it is aimed, as far as i can see, as solely mobilising the BME vote- and not winning arguements in the wards where the BNP are strong
> 
> Take Newham as one good exmaple. Why are they mobilising in Stratford while the bulk of the BNP Support is in 3 Canning Town wards.
> 
> Also,BNP have been out leafletting for the elections in London since last November- and may be well ahead of what antifascists are putting out. Has anyone put out any Antifascist leaflets yet?




I did not promote it, I put information in public domain where it should be. Your opinion here appears to be the residue of a by gone age of party purity.


----------



## The Black Hand (Mar 2, 2008)

JimPage said:


> The Searchlight campaign here you can take or leave (i prefer leave) but it is aimed, as far as i can see, as solely mobilising the BME vote- and not winning arguements in the wards where the BNP are strong
> 
> Take Newham as one good example. Why are they mobilising in Stratford while the bulk of the BNP Support is in 3 Canning Town wards.



There is some logic to this. A high voter turnout increases the numbers the BNP has to turn out to get those seats. Also in terms of class formation it makes sense to have strong anti fascist communities does it not? 

Perhaps  you or other ultra leftists can mobile in those 3 wards in Canning town then Jim, it is not after all much left to do...


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 2, 2008)

Attica said:


> There is some logic to this. A high voter turnout increases the numbers the BNP has to turn out to get those seats. Also in terms of class formation it makes sense to have strong anti fascist communities does it not?



So vote tory, labour, lib-dem, UKIP, just vote.

anti-fascism in 2008?


----------



## The Black Hand (Mar 2, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> So vote tory, labour, lib-dem, UKIP, just vote.
> 
> anti-fascism in 2008?



I did say 'some logic' to this. I am not one of them remember.


----------



## audiotech (Mar 2, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> So vote tory, labour, lib-dem, UKIP, just vote.
> 
> anti-fascism in 2008?



Not entirely, I've heard of examples (well one so far) where hundreds of local people themselves have come out to oppose the BNP.


----------



## geoff64 (Mar 3, 2008)

There's a lot of anecdotal evidence - I don't know how easy it is 'prove' - that much of the BNP's recent (ie over the last decade) electoral support comes from disaffected labour voters in traditionally white working class areas (viz barking & dagenham and thurrock in the SE, and that's probably the case in the North,too). Given the BNP's concentration on 'community issues' like housing and anti-social behaviour, isn't too simplistic to argue that the BNP vote is just a racist vote?

Seems to me that the best way to counter this is to engage disillusioned ex-labour voters in these wards in a struggle for improved conditions on a cross-ethnic basis, hence both undermining the racist logic of the BNP AND the social policy of the mainstream parties which has created the conditions for BNP growth.  I guess it's easier said than done if there are no local movements to put this into operation, but surely it's better to argue for this strategy than for anti-fascists to associate themselves with all-party, top-down alliances which only serve to reinforce in the minds of abandoned working class communities that the Left is just as out-of-touch with their concerns as New Labour is, which then simply encourages protesting voting for the BNP?


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## Joe Reilly (Mar 4, 2008)

geoff64 said:


> There's a lot of anecdotal evidence - I don't know how easy it is 'prove' - that much of the BNP's recent (ie over the last decade) electoral support comes from disaffected labour voters in traditionally white working class areas (viz barking & dagenham and thurrock in the SE, and that's probably the case in the North,too). Given the BNP's concentration on 'community issues' like housing and anti-social behaviour, isn't too simplistic to argue that the BNP vote is just a racist vote?
> 
> Seems to me that the best way to counter this is to engage disillusioned ex-labour voters in these wards in a struggle for improved conditions on a cross-ethnic basis, hence both undermining the racist logic of the BNP AND the social policy of the mainstream parties which has created the conditions for BNP growth.  I guess it's easier said than done if there are no local movements to put this into operation, but surely it's better to argue for this strategy than for anti-fascists to associate themselves with all-party, top-down alliances which only serve to reinforce in the minds of abandoned working class communities that the Left is just as out-of-touch with their concerns as New Labour is, which then simply encourages protesting voting for the BNP?




Precisely. What is so sickening is that the undeniable logic of your argument has been ignored by so called anti-fascists since the mid-90's at least. 'Ultra-left' is the slander for those who endorse it these days.


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## KeyboardJockey (Mar 4, 2008)

geoff64 said:


> There's a lot of anecdotal evidence - I don't know how easy it is 'prove' - that much of the BNP's recent (ie over the last decade) electoral support comes from disaffected labour voters in traditionally white working class areas (viz barking & dagenham and thurrock in the SE, and that's probably the case in the North,too). Given the BNP's concentration on 'community issues' like housing and anti-social behaviour, isn't too simplistic to argue that the BNP vote is just a racist vote?
> 
> Seems to me that the best way to counter this is to engage disillusioned ex-labour voters in these wards in a struggle for improved conditions on a cross-ethnic basis, hence both undermining the racist logic of the BNP AND the social policy of the mainstream parties which has created the conditions for BNP growth.  I guess it's easier said than done if there are no local movements to put this into operation, but surely it's better to argue for this strategy than for anti-fascists to associate themselves with all-party, top-down alliances which only serve to reinforce in the minds of abandoned working class communities that the Left is just as out-of-touch with their concerns as New Labour is, which then simply encourages protesting voting for the BNP?




Common sense answer there.  I've been saying for years that some of the actions of 'leftists' are part of the problem and that the sort of left alliances are being seen as anti working class.


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## The Black Hand (Mar 4, 2008)

Joe Reilly said:


> Precisely. What is so sickening is that the undeniable logic of your argument has been ignored by so called anti-fascists since the mid-90's at least. 'Ultra-left' is the slander for those who endorse it these days.



You are talking about some anti fascists joe, not all. See the article on Autonomous Anti fascism which does not have this line, here in MAYDAY magazine;

http://platypus1917.home.comcast.net/~platypus1917/mayday_uk_issue1_win2007-08.pdf

Infact it doesn't take your ultra left line, or Searchlights. Rather it is the space between the 2 which is seen as the area of growth.


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## geoff64 (Mar 4, 2008)

begs the Q that if exactly those areas that are experiencing BNP growth are those same areas that have no - or at least very few/effective - anti-fascist activists, how do we engage with those communities where "we are needed most"?

Parachuting in, as it were, on away-days, is equally likely to be met with justifiable mistrust from working class communities as those Leftists who turn up, piss everybody off with moralising leaflets, and then fuck off back home.

I used to live in Newham and spent some time working with the ANL there - in Beckton and Canning Town - during local elections when the BNP were standing.  We were hardly met with open arms, despite the fact most of us only lived just t'other side of the A13.  Thing is, even then, I understood completely why we were treated with some derision: we didn't live there, didn't drink in the same pubs, etc, and you can hardly do justice to your arguments within the confines of an A5 leaflet - however sound the text (and I'm not suggesting that the ANL leaflets were particularly sound!) - if you aren't around day-to-day, shoulder-to-shoulder, living and breathing the problems of those communities.

(One of the reasons, incidentally, why I grew disillusioned with the ANL.)

Anyway, any suggestions, short of anti-fascists trying to get housed in these areas (which in any case, at best, sounds like the tactics used by middle-class Leftists in the 70's who, when they had finished their university studies in sociology, went to work in factories alongside the heroic proletariat...)?


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## The Black Hand (Mar 5, 2008)

JimPage said:


> Forthcoming by election candidates in Rugby, Chichester, Harrow and Middlesbrough. First indications appearring that however their splits have effected them this may not translate into reduced numbers of candidates, other than in Yorkshire and NW England



Hi - I have looked on the Rugby website here; http://www.rugby.gov.uk/site/scripts/documents.php?categoryID=524

And can find no trace of the election you mention.


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## The Black Hand (Mar 5, 2008)

The Middlesborough one is here;

http://www.middlesbrough.gov.uk/ccm...ernment-and-democracy/elections/by-elections/


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## The Black Hand (Mar 5, 2008)

Attica said:


> The Middlesborough one is here;
> 
> http://www.middlesbrough.gov.uk/ccm...ernment-and-democracy/elections/by-elections/



2 Middlesborough seats up for grabs, here's one set of details.

Gresham.

BNP candidate: TOWERS, Barry Graham 71 Clive Road, Linthorpe, Middlesbrough, TS5 6BQ

British National Party - nominated by Horton Malcolm


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## The Black Hand (Mar 5, 2008)

Another;
Marton West
BNP candidate - BROUGHTON, Kevin, 89 Hollowfield, Coulby Newham,
Middlesbrough, TS8 0RS

British National Party candidate nominated by Hartley Gabrielle - now there's a toffs name if there ever was one.


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## butchersapron (Mar 5, 2008)

Attica said:


> Hi - I have looked on the Rugby website here; http://www.rugby.gov.uk/site/scripts/documents.php?categoryID=524
> 
> And can find no trace of the election you mention.



This one i guess:
http://www.rugby.gov.uk/site/scripts/download_info.php?fileID=3010


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## butchersapron (Mar 5, 2008)

geoff64 said:


> There's a lot of anecdotal evidence - I don't know how easy it is 'prove' - that much of the BNP's recent (ie over the last decade) electoral support comes from disaffected labour voters in traditionally white working class areas (viz barking & dagenham and thurrock in the SE, and that's probably the case in the North,too). Given the BNP's concentration on 'community issues' like housing and anti-social behaviour, isn't too simplistic to argue that the BNP vote is just a racist vote?
> 
> Seems to me that the best way to counter this is to engage disillusioned ex-labour voters in these wards in a struggle for improved conditions on a cross-ethnic basis, hence both undermining the racist logic of the BNP AND the social policy of the mainstream parties which has created the conditions for BNP growth.  I guess it's easier said than done if there are no local movements to put this into operation, but surely it's better to argue for this strategy than for anti-fascists to associate themselves with all-party, top-down alliances which only serve to reinforce in the minds of abandoned working class communities that the Left is just as out-of-touch with their concerns as New Labour is, which then simply encourages protesting voting for the BNP?



Just to back this up, there used to be a table of the BNPs gains over the last 4 or 5 years on the searchlight ran 'stop the bnp' site. Normal chart, candidate on left, followed by vote, %, turnout etc - and on the right end the party they had won the seat from - just about everyone of them read labour. (I don't know if this is why they removed the table after getting back in bed wirth labour and the unions)


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## cockneyrebel (Mar 5, 2008)

I agree with what you're saying geoff, but would add that I find it hard to believe that anyone would vote BNP if they were anti-racist or black or Asian (apart from a handful of nutters). But agree that the reasons for the increase in the BNPs vote are along the lines of what you've said.

But the problem is that while people bang on and on about an ever dwindling and irrelevant left (who aren't doing in any harm in most places because they just don't exist), they don't move beyond that obsession and suggest a positive alternative.

Posters on here are content to moan on about what the far left are doing (like it matters) but never suggest a coherent alternative that is working. The most you get is IWCA supporters who seem totally unable to use this model in their own area.


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## The Black Hand (Mar 5, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> This one i guess:
> http://www.rugby.gov.uk/site/scripts/download_info.php?fileID=3010



Well done Apron.


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## Louis MacNeice (Mar 5, 2008)

cockneyrebel said:


> I agree with what you're saying geoff, but would add that I find it hard to believe that anyone would vote BNP if they were anti-racist or black or Asian (apart from a handful of nutters). But agree that the reasons for the increase in the BNPs vote are along the lines of what you've said.
> 
> But the problem is that while people bang on and on about an ever dwindling and irrelevant left (who aren't doing in any harm in most places because they just don't exist), they don't move beyond that obsession and suggest a positive alternative.
> 
> Posters on here are content to moan on about what the far left are doing (like it matters) but never suggest a coherent alternative that is working. The most you get is IWCA supporters who seem totally unable to use this model in their own area.



Not quite fair re. Oxford, Islington and Hackney Independent.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


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## geoff64 (Mar 5, 2008)

apart from Islington South, though, (which I could conceive the BNP trying their arm in, if it weren't for the presence of IWCA) is it the case that the BNP are going to stand in any of these areas to be able to test the IWCA model?  I don't know about Oxford, but the BNP are very unlikely to stand candidates in Hackney, even in Hoxton now where the far right used to be very strong. 

Ideally, we need to put this method into practice in barking, newham south, bradford etc, but of course the IWCA, or anything like it, doesn't exist here.

There was an IWCA group in Harold Hill. That looks like an area that might bear fruit for the BNP.  Anyone know what's happening there?

(NB I'm assuming that typical BNP heartland is a predominantly white area with small pockets of ethnic minorities within or large ethnic minority areas nearby.  So Harold Hill makes sense for them, but not Hackney.  Even without the presence of Hackney Independent - which seems to operate in the South of Hackney - I can't see the BNP trying their luck there.)


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## durruti02 (Mar 5, 2008)

geoff64 said:


> apart from Islington South, though, (which I could conceive the BNP trying their arm in, if it weren't for the presence of IWCA) is it the case that the BNP are going to stand in any of these areas to be able to test the IWCA model?  I don't know about Oxford, but the BNP are very unlikely to stand candidates in Hackney, even in Hoxton now where the far right used to be very strong.
> 
> Ideally, we need to put this method into practice in barking, newham south, bradford etc, but of course the IWCA, or anything like it, doesn't exist here.
> 
> ...



hi geoff .. the harold hill example is very relevent .. classic bnp potential .. massive iwca vote initially then the collapse of the group due to family reasons as i understand and bnp have waltzed in .. it needs repeated .. the bnp fill voids .. shouting at them does no good .. we need to fill those voids before them 

and without an iwca in south islington and HI in hoxton/haggerston it is inconceivable the bnp would not have had a go even just with paper candidates .. there is no question about this, though demographics and white flight do make a differrence .. in the past they stood almost to make trouble .. now they stand where they think they can win


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## cockneyrebel (Mar 6, 2008)

> Not quite fair re. Oxford, Islington and Hackney Independent.



I was talking about IWCA supporters on here who don't seem to be able to get anything off the ground in their areas. The fact is that people drone on about the far left but don't seem to be able to get anything substantial off the ground. And even where there have been successes they have been very isolated and limited.

People can give all the reasons they like about why it hasn't worked, but at the end of the day the above is the case like it or not. Why aren't IWCA supporters able to build that method in other parts of the country or find others to support that model?

But what's more strange is the amount of time that people on here spend moaning on about the far left when why don't they just get on with building what they see as a positive alternative and ignore the far left.


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## geoff64 (Mar 6, 2008)

cockneyrebel said:


> But what's more strange is the amount of time that people on here spend moaning on about the far left when why don't they just get on with building what they see as a positive alternative and ignore the far left.




You can do both.  We all need a bit of fun in our lives, too ...


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## JimPage (Mar 6, 2008)

Attica said:


> There is some logic to this. A high voter turnout increases the numbers the BNP has to turn out to get those seats. Also in terms of class formation it makes sense to have strong anti fascist communities does it not? QUOTE]
> 
> agree that yes, a high turnout will usually work against the BNP so on face of it, it to mobilise a hundred antifascist voters in Stratford is as good as the same number in Canning Town. however, in the longer terms, it would make better sense to take the fight to the communities where they have support (and these can be identified as there is out there a ward by ward breakdown of their support at the 2004 GLA Elections)


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## geoff64 (Mar 6, 2008)

JimPage said:


> it would make better sense to take the fight to the communities where they have support (and these can be identified as there is out there a ward by ward breakdown of their support at the 2004 GLA Elections)



Agreed, but noone here has yet offered a means for anti-fascists to achieve this.  if we don't have an 'organic' presence in these communities how do we take the fight to them without (and apologies for repeating myself) being perceived as outsiders who can be dismissed on those grounds irrespective of the strength of the argument?

Joe Reilly, Butchersapron, Durutti and others, you seem to agree with what i have been arguing, what's your take on this?  Do we all get together and 'parachute' into Canning Town (for eg) with leaflets?  Or what?


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## The Black Hand (Mar 6, 2008)

geoff64 said:


> Agreed, but noone here has yet offered a means for anti-fascists to achieve this.  if we don't have an 'organic' presence in these communities how do we take the fight to them without (and apologies for repeating myself) being perceived as outsiders who can be dismissed on those grounds irrespective of the strength of the argument?
> 
> Joe Reilly, Butchersapron, Durutti and others, you seem to agree with what i have been arguing, what's your take on this?  Do we all get together and 'parachute' into Canning Town (for eg) with leaflets?  Or what?



I would do it more subtley tbh. A gig here one week, a gig there the next week, and so on, initially non confrontational easy to establish events. Make the contacts, try and establish a dynamic eg. a poster campaign on a solid class issue.  Then add the more overt politics as if you mean business...


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## durruti02 (Mar 7, 2008)

geoff64 said:


> Agreed, but noone here has yet offered a means for anti-fascists to achieve this.  if we don't have an 'organic' presence in these communities how do we take the fight to them without (and apologies for repeating myself) being perceived as outsiders who can be dismissed on those grounds irrespective of the strength of the argument?
> 
> Joe Reilly, Butchersapron, Durutti and others, you seem to agree with what i have been arguing, what's your take on this?  Do we all get together and 'parachute' into Canning Town (for eg) with leaflets?  Or what?



hi geoff .. i half agree .. while there is clearly grounds for arguing it is imperative to stop the bnp getting seats ( momentum/rise in race attacks etc though i hear race attacks have gone DOWN in BnD rcently .. i have NOT checked this though) we have the dilema .. 

clearly the more working class groups like IWCA HI and w/c @'s could put together a leafleat and campaign that would undercut the bnp to a certain extent, WITHOUT calling for a vote for LabLibCon etc, in, e.g canning town, or BnD, BUT it would be parachuting in and short termism .. it would not help resolve any of the underlying reasons why people are turning to the bnp 

for me there is NO alternative to slow work where we live ( and hard anti capitalist/anti status quo propagandising too at a higher level ) .. we can NOT at this stage affect the bnp vote e.g in the GLA .. they have already leafletted most of outer east london and i suspect have their 5% across london .. the people who will vote for them will only be reached in the long term by the creation of a genunine w/c alt .. one that imho only groups like the IWCA HI and the w/c @ communitry organisers are approaching


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## JimPage (Mar 7, 2008)

Warwickshire County Council result from yesterday (Rugby)
Lab 724
Con 723 
BNP 313 (14.6%)
LD 235 
Grn 148 

First time outing for them in Rugby and very good vote

The cretinous Lnacaster Unity site report this as "another failure for the BNP"


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## JimPage (Mar 7, 2008)

geoff64 said:


> Agreed, but noone here has yet offered a means for anti-fascists to achieve this.  if we don't have an 'organic' presence in these communities how do we take the fight to them without (and apologies for repeating myself) being perceived as outsiders who can be dismissed on those grounds irrespective of the strength of the argument?
> 
> Joe Reilly, Butchersapron, Durutti and others, you seem to agree with what i have been arguing, what's your take on this?  Do we all get together and 'parachute' into Canning Town (for eg) with leaflets?  Or what?



Agree with you in the long run, and is sad that every effort to the left unity needed to provide a political alternative to the the BNP seems to have been variously stillborn, divided, subverted, or falls apart at the first opportunity.

In the absence of this alternative, or anything looking like it on the horizon, its down to No Platform as the only tactic on offer to stop them. 

I think nothing short of the BNP Getting elected to the GLA will wake people up to the urgency of the need to unite, and form that left alternative.


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## JimPage (Mar 7, 2008)

Couple more by elections not reported on previously, in Havering and Welllingborough


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## geoff64 (Mar 7, 2008)

JimPage said:


> In the absence of this alternative, or anything looking like it on the horizon, its down to No Platform as the only tactic on offer to stop them.



I'd be interested to hear what you mean by No Platform.

I'm broadly in agreement with the concept provided that calls for state bans etc are not part of the strategy.

I'm very much a libertarian as far as freedom of speech is concerned (although I don't subscribe to the idea that it is absolute), and I don't think the BNP should be prevented from expressing their ideas.  Physical confrontation, the kind of No Platform strategy pursued by AFA for example, was a necessity in its time.  However, as soon as the BNP ended the war on the streets, a strategy of physical confrontation became redundant.  What is necessary is to ensure that their ideas are challenged, so by all means let's organise and demonstrate. Is that what you mean, or do you mean by No Platform that they should be silenced by any means necessary?


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## The Black Hand (Mar 7, 2008)

geoff64 said:


> I'd be interested to hear what you mean by No Platform.
> 
> I'm broadly in agreement with the concept provided that calls for state bans etc are not part of the strategy.
> 
> I'm very much a libertarian as far as freedom of speech is concerned (although I don't subscribe to the idea that it is absolute), and I don't think the BNP should be prevented from expressing their ideas.  Physical confrontation, the kind of No Platform strategy pursued by AFA for example, was a necessity in its time.  However, as soon as the BNP ended the war on the streets, a strategy of physical confrontation became redundant.  What is necessary is to ensure that their ideas are challenged, so by all means let's organise and demonstrate. Is that what you mean, or do you mean by No Platform that they should be silenced by any means necessary?



I think it is up to local groups to do what they see fit. I see nothing wrong with some duffing the BNP up and some opposition politically.  It is not contradictory cos they are working towards the same anti fascist goals...


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## Joe Reilly (Mar 7, 2008)

geoff64 said:


> Agreed, but noone here has yet offered a means for anti-fascists to achieve this.  if we don't have an 'organic' presence in these communities how do we take the fight to them without (and apologies for repeating myself) being perceived as outsiders who can be dismissed on those grounds irrespective of the strength of the argument?
> 
> Joe Reilly, Butchersapron, Durutti and others, you seem to agree with what i have been arguing, what's your take on this?  Do we all get together and 'parachute' into Canning Town (for eg) with leaflets?  Or what?



No parachuting. Looking at from 'a long war' perspective the best thing to do is to begin to set the foundations for the progressise working class alaternative in the area you already live in. That way no one can accuse you of being an outsider, which as you rightly suggest can be very toxic. 

And don't worry, either the BNP will turn up there sooner or later - or if your sufficiently succesful- will side step it for a neighbouring one. Either way you will be ticking all the anti-fascist boxes, which is to say help provide political barrier to further BNP encroachment in one specific working class area as well as developing a working alternative to the mainstream parties on a national basis. 

Crucial ingredient? A suitable indivividual to to put their head over the parapet and be the public face of the initiative.


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## The Black Hand (Mar 7, 2008)

Joe Reilly said:


> No parachuting. Looking at from 'a long war' perspective the best thing to do is to begin to set the foundations for the progressise working class alaternative in the area you already live in. That way no one can accuse you of being an outsider, which as you rightly suggest can be very toxic.
> 
> And don't worry, either the BNP will turn up there sooner or later - or if your sufficiently succesful- will side step it for a neighbouring one. Either way you will be ticking all the anti-fascist boxes, which is to say help provide political barrier to further BNP encroachment in one specific working class area as well as developing a working alternative to the mainstream parties on a national basis.
> 
> Crucial ingredient? A suitable indivividual to to put their head over the parapet and be the public face of the initiative.



I just cannot agree. Where the BNP are trying to make inroads into a whole new area clearly there is an imperative to not let them get established. There is ALWAYS some locals on our side who will do stuff too... I see nothing wrong with anti fascist solidarity. Yours is not so much politics but an abdication of politics.


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## JimPage (Mar 8, 2008)

Attica said:


> I just cannot agree. Where the BNP are trying to make inroads into a whole new area clearly there is an imperative to not let them get established. There is ALWAYS some locals on our side who will do stuff too... I see nothing wrong with anti fascist solidarity. Yours is not so much politics but an abdication of politics.



agree with you here. while joes proposed strategy of building support where you are, in your own council ward, makes absolute sense- for 90% of your political life. However, when they come to town in a new area, (which they have in the past 3 months in council areas like castle point, rugby, hatfield and harrow), and which often caught antifascist off guard as well, what to do in the 3 weeks notice we get before polling day?

some sort of action usually No Platforming them, is the only realistic option at hand. yes, it is an damning indictment of the left for not organising in these areas before them, but its what, in reality we have with a still exanding BNP

and if they are new in town, old schooltactics like explaining to people that the BNP are Nazis still has its place


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## geoff64 (Mar 8, 2008)

jim, re post 1141, what do you mean by No Platform?


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## durruti02 (Mar 9, 2008)

Attica said:


> I just cannot agree. Where the BNP are trying to make inroads into a whole new area clearly there is an imperative to not let them get established. There is ALWAYS some locals on our side who will do stuff too... I see nothing wrong with anti fascist solidarity. Yours is not so much politics but an abdication of politics.



attica you are way behind the times .. the bnp, and sympathies, for the bnp are way ahead of anti fascism .. all anti fascism does now is wind up people and probably push them into being more overt supporters of the bnp .. i am reminded of canute .. you think we are at a stage where a bit of militant antifa can stop the BNP??? this is absurd mate and do you hinestky think it would NOT be happenning if we could?? do you think that RA the key anti fascists of our generation made the political jump to radical localism ( or whatever .. the IWCA turn ) for a laugh??? we do NOT have teh forces we had in teh 7ts and early 8TS .. and that is what we need to do .. rebuild that .. ( p.s. in some areas your strategy will be correct .. but only in a minority of places) 

it is anti facism which is actually in reality the abdication of politics .. what JR proposes is correct and without this we are f'ed


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## The Black Hand (Mar 9, 2008)

durruti02 said:


> attica you are way behind the times .. the bnp, and sympathies, for the bnp are way ahead of anti fascism .. all anti fascism does now is wind up people and probably push them into being more overt supporters of the bnp .. i am reminded of canute .. you think we are at a stage where a bit of militant antifa can stop the BNP??? this is absurd mate and do you hinestky think it would NOT be happenning if we could?? do you think that RA the key anti fascists of our generation made the political jump to radical localism ( or whatever .. the IWCA turn ) for a laugh??? we do NOT have teh forces we had in teh 7ts and early 8TS .. and that is what we need to do .. rebuild that .. ( p.s. in some areas your strategy will be correct .. but only in a minority of places)
> 
> it is anti facism which is actually in reality the abdication of politics .. what JR proposes is correct and without this we are f'ed



I disagree - there are enough anti fascist forces to do things which includes local work. I think yours and Joes is radical helplessness. Infact I would go as far as to say that it is ultra leftism that does not think strategically. I am not discounting local work, but you should build a political map of britain, and chart where you think the BNP are trying for next. That is, if you seriously want to stop them... First confine them to the areas they are in, then surround and destroy


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## geoff64 (Mar 9, 2008)

perhaps you could accuse the iwca model as radical helplessness.  I'd prefer to look at the situation with some objectivity and admit that unless local anti-fascist groups exist, then challenging the BNP _effectively_ in those areas where they are doing well will be extremely difficult.

Attica, you sound like an armchair theorist.  Who exactly is going to do the surrounding and attacking?


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## The Black Hand (Mar 9, 2008)

geoff64 said:


> perhaps you could accuse the iwca model as radical helplessness.  I'd prefer to look at the situation with some objectivity and admit that unless local anti-fascist groups exist, then challenging the BNP _effectively_ in those areas where they are doing well will be extremely difficult.
> 
> Attica, you sound like an armchair theorist.  Who exactly is going to do the surrounding and attacking?



I suggest armchair theorists are those who do not do anything imaginative - they are confined to a minute area which will never change anything. Fact.

Havel the socialist suffered for his politics in the Czech republic, after the fall of the wall he said 'nobody knows what spirit lies within the population' (paraphrase). History has confirmed that so many times already. Empiricism (the 'realist' collection of supposed 'facts') is not a Marxist method, and Joe and others suffer from that badly (it is not anti fascism either).

If you only do what you know you can do you WILL NEVER AFFECT THE POLITICAL SITUATION OR POLITICAL POSSIBILITIES. It was Lenin who said "only those who do nothing make no mistakes", and he was right on that one

I was talking strategically - it is the Art of War. Confining them into an area i suggested was to be done by anti fascists, including local forces, the class composition of this i would imagine will be the multitude(s). I am building a forward dynamic into the plan as you have to, otherwise you have radical helplessness (ultra leftism).


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## geoff64 (Mar 9, 2008)

Attica said:


> If you only do what you know you can do you WILL NEVER AFFECT THE POLITICAL SITUATION OR POLITICAL POSSIBILITIES. It was Lenin who said "only those who do nothing make no mistakes", and he was right on that one
> 
> .



hmmm, i don't pretend to undertsand some of what you've said here, but this makes sense.  i suppose joe et al would think that they have seen a great deal of misatkes made by anti-fascists in the past and hope to try something else. what they propose - localised community politics to innoculate areas from fascist influence - makes perfect sense to me, and it seems to be a strategy worth arguing for with other anti-fascists. i would have thought that the hard work necesary to build local community politics (Joe referred to it as 'the long war') could hardly be considered accepting the status quo; on the contrary it seems to be a serious attempt at 'affecting [shouldn't that be effecting?] the political situation'?

My Q iro of this strategy is how anti-fascists can spread it beyond the localities in which they operate to encompass those where they don't, and into those areas where the BNP have made headway.  But i'm just repeating myself now ...


----------



## The Black Hand (Mar 9, 2008)

geoff64 said:


> hmmm, i don't pretend to undertsand some of what you've said here, but this makes sense.  i suppose joe et al would think that they have seen a great deal of misatkes made by anti-fascists in the past and hope to try something else. what they propose - localised community politics to innoculate areas from fascist influence - makes perfect sense to me, and it seems to be a strategy worth arguing for with other anti-fascists. i would have thought that the hard work necesary to build local community politics (Joe referred to it as 'the long war') could hardly be considered accepting the status quo; on the contrary it seems to be a serious attempt at 'affecting [shouldn't that be effecting?] the political situation'?
> 
> My Q iro of this strategy is how anti-fascists can spread it beyond the localities in which they operate to encompass those where they don't, and into those areas where the BNP have made headway.  But i'm just repeating myself now ...



'Affect' above means "make a difference to" in the copy of the Oxford English dictionary I have here.

That is the problem they have faced. 15 years since they started they have got nowhere from where they started. It's ultra leftism by another name. 

I think it can be argued that is is accepting the status quo, cos if you practice politics which doesn't change anything, or stand a chance of changing anything, and confronts nothing, then it is the status quo by another name.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Mar 10, 2008)

geoff64 said:


> hmmm, i don't pretend to undertsand some of what you've said here, but this makes sense.  i suppose joe et al would think that they have seen a great deal of misatkes made by anti-fascists in the past and hope to try something else. what they propose - localised community politics to innoculate areas from fascist influence - makes perfect sense to me, and it seems to be a strategy worth arguing for with other anti-fascists. i would have thought that the hard work necesary to build local community politics (Joe referred to it as 'the long war') could hardly be considered accepting the status quo; on the contrary it seems to be a serious attempt at 'affecting [shouldn't that be effecting?] the political situation'?
> 
> My Q iro of this strategy is how anti-fascists can spread it beyond the localities in which they operate to encompass those where they don't, and into those areas where the BNP have made headway.  But i'm just repeating myself now ...



The lesson anti-fascists learned in east London in 1993-4 is that to be effective on the door, you have to be _for_ something as well as being against something. Currrently anti-fascism is _for_ the mainstream parties - that is what it offers up as an alternative. This plays into the BNP's hands. 

Also even Searchlight has admitted that purely negative campaigning has little real effect - as little as 5% of the vote - when it works well. This could concievably prevent the BNP getting a seat now and again but that is about it. 

As a tactic 'No platform' is ineffective without the threat of extreme violence. What afterall have the BNP activists who harvest the votes and their strategists to concern themselves about? 

Finally the BNP are popping up all over the place. It is impossible to predict where they will establish an electoral bridgehead next. Even if you could anticipate their plans you would need to have the manpower to match the enthusisasm of their membership to have any effect. For instance in one by-election they put out 11 leaflets. 

Like it or not we are now in the era of 'the battle of ideas'. The IWCA came out of anti-fascism but should not really be seen as an anti-fascist tactic per se - it is broader than that, and I would argue has already developed a working strategy for others to copy.

Ps Just for record the IWCA first stood in 2002, not circe 1992 as has been implied. As for 'armchair theorists' nothing wrong in principle as long as they produce something to chew over now and again. 

What is just a tad irritating is 'armchair generals' who urge others to do what they are unwilling to do themselves.


----------



## The Black Hand (Mar 10, 2008)

Joe Reilly said:


> Ps Just for record the IWCA first stood in 2002, not circe 1992 as has been implied. As for 'armchair theorists' nothing wrong in principle as long as they produce something to chew over now and again.
> 
> What is just a tad irritating is 'armchair generals' who urge others to do what they are unwilling to do themselves.



Give over Joe, you started circulating stuff in the early 9T's and hung up your gloves then too. You are still inneffective all these years l8r, even starting from your later date you've not done anything at all. The trick is getting new constituencies or creating new forms of engagement, and you have not. You remain an ultra left clique, like the other ultra left cliques. As for armchair theorists if only I was like you, who never get out of their armchair to do anything new


----------



## The Black Hand (Mar 10, 2008)

Those polite BNp members in suits again

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2008/03/393258.html

At the turn of the year officers from the Post Office Security Team based at London's main sorting office at Mount Pleasant intercepted a package from the USA which contained a Tazer gun, known as a stun gun, now in widening use by the Metropolitan Police Service. The addressee was a 23 year old man, one Ellis Hammond. The P.O.security team passed on the address and details of the contents of the package to the police in South East London. It took them only minutes to realise that Hammond was a serving officer in the Police Community Safety unit based in their command area. 

In no time, they were at his family home detaining him and carrying out what was said to be a very thorough search. They found the following: 

1 CS Tear Gas Canister 
1 Police style ASP retractable baton 
1 pair of Metropolitan Police-issue Handcuffs 
I Knuckle-Duster 
8 combat knives 
DVDs with Hate material on them 
Various items of British National Party literature 
Some Obscene material 
25-30 mainly imported T Shirts from the USA bearing nazi and White Power groups symbols and with hard line racist and nazi slogans on them 
4 BB Guns 
1 Replica AK 47 Assault Rifle 
1 Copy of the Turner Diaries the US publication that has served as a blueprint for nazi terrorism in the USA, written by the late William Pearce, a close friend of the BNP who has played host to them at his National Alliance HQ in the USA and was guest of honour at a BNP annual meeting in East London some years ago. 
And finally to top it off, a British National Party membership card...


----------



## cockneyrebel (Mar 10, 2008)

I agree with those that say a political alternative is the thing that is needed. I think the best anti-fascist political theorists have always recognised that a positive message is needed and the policy of no platform, while definatley having a place, is a defensive measure. (I'd also agree with JRs comments that no platform needs to be backed up to be effective. The left at the moment isn't exactly full of types able to implement it in reality. I remember when I used to read about WP/Revolution going out near Leeds and saying they would use organised self-defence. In reality they were mostly middle class students and two or three BNP security would have battered the lot of them. People might as well be honest about it).

I think geoff is right that at the moment it is very hard as the far left is in disarrary and weaker than it's been for 100 years. The same goes for the unions.

But then JR says:



> the best thing to do is to begin to set the foundations for the progressise working class alaternative in the area you already live in.



Essentially I agree with this but it's still a fact that there are quite a few IWCA supporters on here and on other boards from different parts of the country who have supported them for quite a while. They come from places like Manchester, Bristol, Northhampton etc and yet none of them has been able to set up an IWCA branch or come anywhere near it. Indeed one of them openly said they can't find a single person to agree with them.

It's all good and well putting the IWCA method forward as some holy grail but most of its supporters outside Oxford and Hackney and Islington don't seem to be able to run with it.

I'd also say that rebuilding the unions is a crucial task, as important as anything. Something the IWCA seems to almost entirely ignore. Large anti-facist movements have always had their core in the workers movement.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Mar 11, 2008)

cockneyrebel said:


> I agree with those that say a political alternative is the thing that is needed. I think the best anti-fascist political theorists have always recognised that a positive message is needed and the policy of no platform, while definatley having a place, is a defensive measure. (I'd also agree with JRs comments that no platform needs to be backed up to be effective. The left at the moment isn't exactly full of types able to implement it in reality. I remember when I used to read about WP/Revolution going out near Leeds and saying they would use organised self-defence. In reality they were mostly middle class students and two or three BNP security would have battered the lot of them. People might as well be honest about it).
> 
> I think geoff is right that at the moment it is very hard as the far left is in disarrary and weaker than it's been for 100 years. The same goes for the unions.
> 
> ...




I hesitate to answer this post because regardless what is said some people stick to one point like a mantra. Here goes. No one here is recomending the 'IWCA method' - there may be better ones. What I was stressing is the importance of a direct _orientation_ to working class communities. Doing if you like what the BNP are already doing as a way of combatting them on the estates. Two councillors in a former mining town stood for precisely that reason and though not in the IWCA as such succesfully used the IWCA 'method' in doing so. So it can be done.

As for the alternative strategy championed; ie 'rebuilding the unions' and so forth. If it is as I suspect industrial unions you are talking about, that would require an industrial working class. For that to happen there would surely need to be a second industrial revolution. But don't let that stop you. Just let us know when you've finished.


----------



## cockneyrebel (Mar 12, 2008)

You say it's sticking to one point like a mantra, but if things remain the same then the same points will be made. The far left (including the IWCA), have remained pitifully small over the last 10-15 years and actually declined yet further. At the same time the BNP has grown significantly.

And while I agree with an orientation to working class communities, the fact still remains that no-one has had much success with that. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't keep trying, but clearly no-one has all the answers and we all have a lot to learn. But if you listen to many people on the left they speak and act as if their way is the holy grail for the way forward.

I'm also very sceptical that the BNP method of organising can be copied by the left. As in reality they do fuck all for working class communities and just use sound bites. However because many of their ideas are backed up by the media either directly or indirectly they have a much easier time of it.



> Two councillors in a former mining town stood for precisely that reason and though not in the IWCA as such succesfully used the IWCA 'method' in doing so. So it can be done.



Out of interest what is this example? Have you got a link to it?



> As for the alternative strategy championed; ie 'rebuilding the unions' and so forth. If it is as I suspect industrial unions you are talking about, that would require an industrial working class. For that to happen there would surely need to be a second industrial revolution. But don't let that stop you. Just let us know when you've finished.



Where did I mention the industrial unions? The remaining ones obviously have a part to play but I meant all unions. Unions like the PCS and UNISON have some of the poorest workers in the country, but aren't industrial unions. The IWCA seems to think that the work place and unions can just be ignored. I think that any decent and large anti-fascist movement would have to have the unions at its core (and in nearly all the cases I can think of in the past has done).

Also as I've said before union struggles and community struggles go hand in hand. Where I work we are linking up the issues of rent rises and privatisation and linking union struggles with tenants associations.

Also I think it's an idea if union branches, together with local communities, could start backing candidates on an anti-privatisation basis or something similar.


----------



## audiotech (Mar 14, 2008)

Thursday's by-election results

Middlesborough Gresham ward:

Lab 584 (47.95)
Ind 377 (30.95)
*BNP 135 (11.08)*
L-D 78 (6.40)
Con 44 (3.61)

Total 1218

Middlesborough Marton West ward:

Con 993 (63.01)
Lab 413 (26.21)
*BNP 170 (10.79)*

Total 1576

Harrow Marlborough ward:

Lab 972 (41.43)
L-D 628 (26.77)
Con 507 (21.61)
*BNP 94 (4.01)*
Ind 74 (3.15)
Grn 71 (3.03)

Total 2346


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## The Black Hand (Mar 15, 2008)

MC5 said:


> Thursday's by-election results
> 
> Middlesborough Gresham ward:
> 
> ...



Crap results them.


----------



## durruti02 (Mar 15, 2008)

Attica said:


> Crap results them.


 the threat of the BNP getting 10%+ was once talked of in shock .. we now take that 10% as a failure on their part .. boy oh boy


----------



## sally_sally (Mar 15, 2008)

I cant see the BNP ever getting more than that really. Also I think when they first stand they are a novelty, after the first time voting people refer back to the other 3.

The BNP, like the Green party, Respect and other small parties will always be just that. I feel that the time and energy that goes in to knocking the BNP can at times be counter productive.

Sal


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## JimPage (Mar 15, 2008)

Attica said:


> Crap results them.



no, far from crap for a first time electoral outing in Middlesbrough, beating the tories and liberals. Where exactly was the left candidate?


----------



## JimPage (Mar 15, 2008)

Bit of info on BNP may elections

1. 50 Candidates in Wales

2. Fighting over one sixth of English Local election seats for grabs, allowing them their first local elections PPC out of london. Full slates may well be stood in a number of Northern English towns - all 4 tyneside councils and sunderland for example
3. GLA. Fighting mayor, city and east constituency and party list


----------



## The Black Hand (Mar 15, 2008)

JimPage said:


> Bit of info on BNP may elections
> 
> 1. 50 Candidates in Wales
> 
> ...



Where from? Internal party news? Off their web site?


----------



## The Black Hand (Mar 15, 2008)

JimPage said:


> Where exactly was the left candidate?



Couldn't be bothered.


----------



## The Black Hand (Mar 15, 2008)

JimPage said:


> no, far from crap for a first time electoral outing in Middlesbrough, beating the tories and liberals.



It's crap cos it is irrelevant. Just cos they got a few votes more that the pathetically low vote the tories and liberals got means nothing. Nothing anyway related to actually winning the seat.


----------



## The Black Hand (Mar 15, 2008)

durruti02 said:


> the threat of the BNP getting 10%+ was once talked of in shock .. we now take that 10% as a failure on their part .. boy oh boy



If that is the case then perhaps the ultra leftists will think about their politics a bit harder perhaps? 'Got it alone' clearly IS NOT _working in *any way*_ that can be considered relevant or succesful to the political situation on a national level. That after all is where it matters, the national effect, not 1 or 2 local irrelevances.


----------



## Frostys Lodger (Mar 18, 2008)

According to Torbay BNP organiser, Lucas, The BNP will be fighting 2-3 seats in Exeter in the May elections.  1st time outing there.


----------



## geoff64 (Mar 19, 2008)

Attica said:


> If that is the case then perhaps the ultra leftists will think about their politics a bit harder perhaps? 'Got it alone' clearly IS NOT _working in *any way*_ that can be considered relevant or succesful to the political situation on a national level. That after all is where it matters, the national effect, not 1 or 2 local irrelevances.



I note you using this phrase ultra-left a lot.  can youi explain what you mean by that?  do you just mean a way of doing things that is not embraced by the majority of anti-fascists?

I would hardly have thought that contesting the bnp on their own ground via community politics (hardly an extreme left battleground afterall - housing, anti-social behaviour, local facilities) was ultra-left in itself.  The fact that few people seem to be doing it is a mystery really.  Those that think that this strategy is a useful one surely have to argue their case with others.

Why is that ultra-left??

I would have thought that theoretical anarchism was just as marginalised (more so), yet you have no problem arguing that.

Or have I misunderstood something?


----------



## The Black Hand (Mar 19, 2008)

geoff64 said:


> I note you using this phrase ultra-left a lot.  can youi explain what you mean by that?  do you just mean a way of doing things that is not embraced by the majority of anti-fascists?
> 
> I would hardly have thought that contesting the bnp on their own ground via community politics (hardly an extreme left battleground afterall - housing, anti-social behaviour, local facilities) was ultra-left in itself.  The fact that few people seem to be doing it is a mystery really.  Those that think that this strategy is a useful one surely have to argue their case with others.
> 
> ...



TBH I have a big problem with all existing efforts 'go it alone small group types'. I call it ultra left cos they are isolated in the very small area where they operate. For me, politics has to be accessible to be relevant on a national level, and the isolated groups don't impress. We badly need more cooperation rather than less these days, and there should be more joined up thinking and politics, where people actually test the relevance of their ideas beyond the safe little world they are currently practicing them.


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## The Black Hand (Mar 19, 2008)

I have found this group on Facebook - very funny;


"Group Info Name: "Nick Griffin, I challenge you to a fight". 
Type: Common Interest - Beliefs & Causes 
Description: This group is to help co-ordinate and orginise a fight between myselfand the leader of the British Nationalist Party Nick Griffin. He has insulted me with his greasy hair, weak chin, blatently small penis and continued existance for the last time. 
If you've got the balls Griffin, lets rumble."


----------



## tbaldwin (Mar 20, 2008)

cockneyrebel said:


> You say it's sticking to one point like a mantra, but if things remain the same then the same points will be made. The far left (including the IWCA), have remained pitifully small over the last 10-15 years and actually declined yet further. At the same time the BNP has grown significantly.
> 
> And while I agree with an orientation to working class communities, the fact still remains that no-one has had much success with that. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't keep trying, but clearly no-one has all the answers and we all have a lot to learn. But if you listen to many people on the left they speak and act as if their way is the holy grail for the way forward.
> 
> ...


----------



## The Black Hand (Mar 20, 2008)

tbaldwin;7266521][QUOTE=cockneyrebel said:


> You say it's sticking to one point like a mantra, but if things remain the same then the same points will be made. The far left (including the IWCA), have remained pitifully small over the last 10-15 years and actually declined yet further. At the same time the BNP has grown significantly.
> 
> And while I agree with an orientation to working class communities, the fact still remains that no-one has had much success with that. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't keep trying, but clearly no-one has all the answers and we all have a lot to learn. But if you listen to many people on the left they speak and act as if their way is the holy grail for the way forward.
> 
> ...


 True.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 21, 2008)

BNP *hold* Gooshays Ward in Havering following resignation of one of their councuillors:
http://www.havering.gov.uk/index.aspx?articleid=12802

Yve Cornell	The Labour Party Candidate	741	
David Warren Durant	National Liberal Party (Harold Voice Team)	62	
Malcolm George Fox	The Conservative Party Candidate	489	
Mark James Logan	British National Party	865	Elected
Ian Victor Sanderson	Liberal Democrats	52	
Lawrence James Webb	UK Independence Party	70

*****

That's BNP on 38.0% - UP 10.9%. 

One other result from last night to come.


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## cockneyrebel (Mar 21, 2008)

Hmmmmm, that is worrying.

butchersapron what do you think can be done about it?


----------



## audiotech (Mar 21, 2008)

Arun DC Yapton ward result:

Con 620 (59.79)
L-D 212 (20.44)
*BNP 205 (19.77)*

Total 1037


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## durruti02 (Mar 21, 2008)

Gooshays Ward - Local election results 2006 Candidate Party Votes Cast Elected 
Alan Herbert Bailey British National Party  996 Elected 
Dennis Robert Bull The Conservative Party Candidate  952 Elected 
Yvonne Mary Josephine Cornell The Labour Party Candidate 915  
Brian Edward Eagling The Labour Party Candidate 912  
Jonathon David Roscoe Holt Havering Residents' Association 199  
Haydn Robert Kent Independent 78  
Florence Ellen Leverett UK Independence Party 379  
John Henry Parker Havering Residents' Association 157  
Marjorie Frances Ramsey The Conservative Party Candidate 885  
Jeffery George Stafford The Labour Party Candidate 814  
Guy Stevens Independent 88  
Wendy Stevens Independent 84  
Keith Frank Wells The Conservative Party Candidate  916 Elected 
Jacqueline Ann Williams Havering Residents' Association 162  
Bryan George Woolerton UK Independence Party 321  
Percentage turnout : 30.98%


Votes cast for Gooshays at the March 2008 by-election Candidate Party Votes Cast Elected 
Yve Cornell The Labour Party Candidate 741  
David Warren Durant National Liberal Party (Harold Voice Team) 62  
Malcolm George Fox The Conservative Party Candidate 489  
Mark James Logan British National Party 865 Elected 
Ian Victor Sanderson Liberal Democrats 52  
Lawrence James Webb UK Independence Party 70  
Percentage turnout : 22.6%

so; 30% down in total vote ( byelection so maybe normal but still very low .. ) / total collapse of UKIP ( bodes well for bnp in gla) / 50% down for tories / labour slight down ( they will be happyish ) / havering residents not standing ( why?) / and bnp down slightly ( but will be happy with % ) 

no sign of expanding on vote which is one good thing to be taken from this .. 
p.s.was there a searchlight HNH campaign???


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 21, 2008)

30% down?


----------



## Joe Reilly (Mar 21, 2008)

durruti02 said:


> Gooshays Ward - Local election results 2006 Candidate Party Votes Cast Elected
> Alan Herbert Bailey British National Party  996 Elected
> 
> no sign of expanding on vote which is one good thing to be taken from this ..
> p.s.was there a searchlight HNH campaign???



There was a Searchlight campaign. A report on it entitled 'Giving the BNP the runaraound' posted on March 17 exposes the delusional and self-aggrandising nature of the entire strategy. This is the first time BNP have won a seat in aby-election as a result of one of their councillors resigning/being sacked. To win with 38% of the vote given the extensive field is probably one of their more significant results in recent years.

The whole 'no platform' strategy is not only futile but it is actively helping the BNP by putting back the day when pro-working class forces begin look at the world in a rational way and decide to do something about it.


----------



## cockneyrebel (Mar 21, 2008)

Searchlight aren't part of the left.


----------



## JimPage (Mar 22, 2008)

Attica said:


> Where from? Internal party news? Off their web site?



http://elections.bnp.org.uk/english-council-elections/

"There are elections for 87 district councils (either a third or a half of all council seats being up for election depending on the authority), 36 Metropolitan Borough Councils and 19 Unitary Authorities (in all of which a third of the seats are up for election). There are approximately 2,500 seats up for election in total.

If the BNP contests a sixth of these seats then it will qualify for a Party Political Broadcast. It is our intention to surpass this total by a significant number of seats."

Cant recall where i heard about 50 in wales from, sorry


----------



## JimPage (Mar 22, 2008)

durruti02 said:


> Gooshays Ward - Local election results 2006
> no sign of expanding on vote which is one good thing to be taken from this ..
> p.s.was there a searchlight HNH campaign???



think % vote is what to focus on, and fact that a very marginal seat turned into a safe one. This increase in % from 2006 does not bode well for the GLA Elections. The only positive is that it tied up many London BNP activists over the past few weeks in campaigning here- they could probabaly have covered a dozen other wards otherwise, however this would not have doen their morale any harm at all

Fascist tails all very up at their prospects in May, and with good reason.


----------



## JimPage (Mar 22, 2008)

Even the usually deranged Lancaster UAF, have recognised the significance of this result. 

http://lancasteruaf.blogspot.com/


----------



## JimPage (Mar 22, 2008)

As to the May Elections, full slate in Southend for first time, full slate in Thurrock again, first time outing in Borehamwood, and big push in Carslile


----------



## The Black Hand (Mar 22, 2008)

Dead BNP councillor - now that IS good news;
http://lancasteruaf.blogspot.com/2008/03/bnp-cllr-dies.html


----------



## The Black Hand (Mar 22, 2008)

JimPage said:


> Even the usually deranged Lancaster UAF, have recognised the significance of this result.
> 
> http://lancasteruaf.blogspot.com/



It is a mistake to underestimate these people I think Jim.  The article you refer too is sensible as you said.


----------



## The Black Hand (Mar 22, 2008)

JimPage said:


> http://elections.bnp.org.uk/english-council-elections/
> 
> "There are elections for 87 district councils (either a third or a half of all council seats being up for election depending on the authority), 36 Metropolitan Borough Councils and 19 Unitary Authorities (in all of which a third of the seats are up for election). There are approximately 2,500 seats up for election in total.
> 
> ...



Thanks.

But given they did 6-700 last time out it is no surprise. I can't remember how many off hand but it was a lot.


----------



## Meltingpot (Mar 22, 2008)

Attica said:


> Dead BNP councillor - now that IS good news;
> http://lancasteruaf.blogspot.com/2008/03/bnp-cllr-dies.html



I don't support cheering for anyone's death, but I hate infiltrators of any kind.


----------



## Meltingpot (Mar 22, 2008)

Frostys Lodger said:


> According to Torbay BNP organiser, Lucas, The BNP will be fighting 2-3 seats in Exeter in the May elections.  1st time outing there.



The National Front used to have a presence in Exeter, and Exeter was John Tyndall's home town as I recall.


----------



## The Black Hand (Mar 22, 2008)

Meltingpot said:


> I don't support cheering for anyone's death, but I hate infiltrators of any kind.


 They do not follow logically captain.


----------



## JimPage (Mar 22, 2008)

Joe Reilly said:


> To win with 38% of the vote given the extensive field is probably one of their more significant results in recent years.



Would agree. this was a leaflet only, no canvassing election for them, in order not to detract too much from the GLA List seats campaign. Labour and torys also campaigned very hard here.

Far right vote also marginally split by Third Way/ National Liberal candidate. 

This will do no end of good for their interal morale

Searchlight are yet to report on the election result. Wonder why?


----------



## durruti02 (Mar 22, 2008)

Meltingpot said:


> The National Front used to have a presence in Exeter, and Exeter was John Tyndall's home town as I recall.


i remember going to exeter for an antifascist run around many years ago  . some mad anniversary in the early 8ts?? recall we never found any!


----------



## durruti02 (Mar 22, 2008)

Joe Reilly said:


> There was a Searchlight campaign. A report on it entitled 'Giving the BNP the runaraound' posted on March 17 exposes the delusional and self-aggrandising nature of the entire strategy. This is the first time BNP have won a seat in aby-election as a result of one of their councillors resigning/being sacked. To win with 38% of the vote given the extensive field is probably one of their more significant results in recent years.
> 
> The whole 'no platform' strategy is not only futile but it is actively helping the BNP by putting back the day when pro-working class forces begin look at the world in a rational way and decide to do something about it.



indeed .. 

any ideas on Nick nowles claim their strategy worked in Sandwell? ( on HnH thread )


----------



## durruti02 (Mar 22, 2008)

JimPage said:


> think % vote is what to focus on, and fact that a very marginal seat turned into a safe one. This increase in % from 2006 does not bode well for the GLA Elections. The only positive is that it tied up many London BNP activists over the past few weeks in campaigning here- they could probabaly have covered a dozen other wards otherwise, however this would not have doen their morale any harm at all
> 
> Fascist tails all very up at their prospects in May, and with good reason.



fair play but i think teh biggest positive is that only 20% of people voted .. that is a massive potential for progressive politics that teh left currently are making no attempt to talk to ..


----------



## The Black Hand (Mar 22, 2008)

Here is evidence of the BNP being racist and still caught in the 'Jewish conspiracy' trap. A pro BNP group on Facebook; their discussion forums give them away so easily, and it looks like ordinary people are outing them as racist fools;
http://www.facebook.com/ topic.php?uid=2308804303&topic=4992    Link broken.


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## The Black Hand (Mar 22, 2008)

BNP organising in London weekend of 29th March - (link broken)
http://www.facebook.com/ event.php?eid=9769147477


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## JHE (Mar 22, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> BNP *hold* Gooshays Ward in Havering following resignation of one of their councuillors:
> http://www.havering.gov.uk/index.aspx?articleid=12802
> 
> Yve Cornell	The Labour Party Candidate	741
> ...




Is there anyone here who knows Gooshays (or, failing that, knows Havering in general)?  I know where Havering is on the map, but not much more.  I believe it is a chunk of mainly white outer east London - part of the Cockney diaspora.  It'd be interesting to know a bit more.


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## butchersapron (Mar 23, 2008)

JHE said:


> Is there anyone here who knows Gooshays (or, failing that, knows Havering in general)?  I know where Havering is on the map, but not much more.  I believe it is a chunk of mainly white outer east London - part of the Cockney diaspora.  It'd be interesting to know a bit more.



There's a regular here who knows it very well, here's what he wrote the next day - this is an excellent point:

_The fact is that the BNP could ride over their two biggest handicaps in this election: their last councillor quit mid-term, which is hardly a good advertisement for electing another councillor when canvassing on the doorstep, and Logan lives some distance away in Hornchurch - an absolute no-no in a local election._


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## JimPage (Mar 23, 2008)

Attica said:


> BNP organising in London weekend of 29th March - (link broken)
> http://www.facebook.com/ event.php?eid=9769147477



Saturday 29th March, Saturday 19th April and Saturday 26th April

the redirection point is usually publicised a few days before by the Searchlight website, assuming i think that militant antifascists will do they job they are not capable of.


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## JimPage (Mar 23, 2008)

The sad thing about Gooshays is that the old IWCA branch there polled 27% in the 2002 Local Elections. This area was a sort of area where progressive working class politics, in recent history, was popular

And sorry to sound like a scratched records, where was any left canddiate to oppose them?


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## cockneyrebel (Mar 24, 2008)

> And sorry to sound like a scratched records, where was any left canddiate to oppose them?



What do you mean, there wasn't one. That's the problem I haven't seen anyone suggest a strategy where they can break out of a couple of areas. The SP and IWCA are both only in 2 or 3 areas each and show no sign of expanding into other areas at a time when the BNP are having no problem doing so. All I've seen people do is moan on about the far left.

Thought this bit on the Lancaster UAF blog might have been written by Julie Waterson.....



> if they noticed the work-shy Chav at all.


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## butchersapron (Mar 25, 2008)

Just did a quick tot-up of the BNPs results from local elections last may until today - over 50+ wards they're averaging 13.5% - the overwhelming majority of these results are in places they've never previously stood, this is their first run out in them. And if i take out the 6 or 7 2-4% results then it's creeping close to 20%.


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## cockneyrebel (Mar 25, 2008)

I can't really see the point in people putting up post after post about how well the BNP are doing. Why not take that as a given.

Surely it's more useful to actually suggest what can be done about it.


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## butchersapron (Mar 25, 2008)

I can't see the point of people responding to people putting up post after post about how well the BNP are doing by saying that they can't see the point of people responding to people putting up post after post about how well the BNP are doing.

Don't then. If you're not interested is little bit of crude statistical analysis and would rather some crude 'fight the fash' propoganda then by all means pm attcia and start a thread. Otherwise - tough shit.


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## butchersapron (Mar 25, 2008)

cockneyrebel said:


> I can't really see the point in people putting up post after post about how well the BNP are doing. Why not take that as a given.


And it may have escaped your eagle eyed attention but  no - it's 'not a given', not at all -that's why half the thread is about just this topic and why posting up stats is part of the internal argument as to whather they are or not.


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## cockneyrebel (Mar 25, 2008)

I can't see the point of people putting posts up in response to people saying I can't see the point of people responding to people putting up post after post about how well the BNP are doing by saying that they can't see the point of people responding to people putting up post after post about how well the BNP are doing. 

And where did I say we should have "bash the fash" propaganda? Examples on a postcard.....

Now obviously you can say tough shit, indeed that could be the answer to any point on any thread.

But we've established that the BNP is doing well, hardly anyone disputes that. Indeed they're doing far better than the whole left whether RESPECT, IWCA, SP or even the Anarchist Federation.

But once that's been established it doesn't seem to achieve much by repeating it over and over again. Why not actually suggest what can be done to change this.


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## cockneyrebel (Mar 25, 2008)

> And it may have escaped your eagle eyed attention but no - it's 'not a given', not at all -that's why half the thread is about just this topic and why posting up stats is part of the internal argument as to whather they are or not.



A couple of people on this thread might not, but generally I think most people do accept it whether on here or more importantly in the wider world.


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## butchersapron (Mar 25, 2008)

Becaus this thread is about the  BNP and their strategy and hence how it's progressing you dolt.


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## butchersapron (Mar 25, 2008)

cockneyrebel said:


> A couple of people on this thread might not, but generally I think most people do accept it whether on here or more importantly in the wider world.



Their are about 5 regular contrubutors to this  thread -2 of them think the BNP are getting rolled over.


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## cockneyrebel (Mar 25, 2008)

Dolt, that's a new one 

That is what the threads about, but I would have thought that once we've established that their strategy is proving successful (and in electoral terms it's the best the far right in the UK have ever done by quite a way), then surely it's a good idea to ask what can be done about it.


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## cockneyrebel (Mar 25, 2008)

> Their are about 5 regular contrubutors to this thread -2 of them think the BNP are getting rolled over.



And given who those two posters are you really think it's worth convincing them that the BNP are doing well rather than be constructive about what you think the working class can do about the obvious success of the BNP?


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## butchersapron (Mar 25, 2008)

cockneyrebel said:


> Dolt, that's a new one
> 
> That is what the threads about, but I would have thought that once we've established that their strategy is proving successful (and in electoral terms it's the best the far right in the UK have ever done by quite a way), then surely it's a good idea to ask what can be done about it.



Well, there have been about 10 threads asking that that you could have contributed to instead of demanding that this one does it.


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## peacepete (Mar 25, 2008)

what's to be done?

you could start by stopping their festival

http://nobnpfestival.wordpress.com/


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## butchersapron (Mar 25, 2008)

cockneyrebel said:


> And given who those two posters are you really think it's worth convincing them that the BNP are doing well rather than be constructive about what you think the working class can do about the obvious success of the BNP?



I don't think the two approaches are in any way opposed. This thread is doing a) you want it do B)there are already threads doing b) or you can start a therad doing b). Simple.


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## cockneyrebel (Mar 25, 2008)

> Well, there have been about 10 threads asking that that you could have contributed to instead of demanding that this one does it.



I'm not demanding anything. Just saying that anyone who thinks that the BNP isn't having success is, in your words, a dolt. So I would have thought it would be good to look at what can be done about their strategy. Or we could just endlessly keep repeating that they're doing well.


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## cockneyrebel (Mar 25, 2008)

> I don't think the two approaches are in any way opposed. This thread is doing a) you want it do B)there are already threads doing b) or you can start a therad doing b). Simple.



From talking about how well the BNP are doing to an "approach" to my posting. It was only a suggestion 

I did have slight trouble understanding the above paragraph though.

Apparently the BNP are having a big wheel at the RWB festival this year. Maybe a few posts on that might be useful in between posting one election result after another which shows that they're doing well to anyone but the most head in the sand "dolt".


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## butchersapron (Mar 25, 2008)

Let's have some postive thoughts people! Aerobics at 9 too! I'm sorry but it's compulsory.


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## The Black Hand (Mar 25, 2008)

cockneyrebel said:


> I can't really see the point in people putting up post after post about how well the BNP are doing. Why not take that as a given.
> 
> Surely it's more useful to actually suggest what can be done about it.



The thread has taken its form cos of the teleological 'bnp doing well = IWCA localism' you can find on this site. Incidentally I think the BNP are doing OK, for them, I do not think anti fascism is served by saying 'how well they are doing', but I do not think that leads to the political reductionism of the IWCA. Have you been following all of this Cockney - I thought you had. Look at Autonomous Anti Fascism in issue 1 of MAYDAY mag here; http://platypus1917.home.comcast.net/~platypus1917/mayday_uk_issue1_win2007-08.pdf

Issue 2 (May 2008) has another article looking at anti fascism and develops the area of autonomy idea against the deadend of RA/IWCA V. Searchlight mirror image opposites.


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## The Black Hand (Mar 25, 2008)

peacepete said:


> what's to be done?
> 
> you could start by stopping their festival
> 
> http://nobnpfestival.wordpress.com/



Good call, i would hope there will be confrontation and not symbolic protest.


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## The Black Hand (Mar 25, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> I can't see the point of people responding to people putting up post after post about how well the BNP are doing by saying that they can't see the point of people responding to people putting up post after post about how well the BNP are doing.
> 
> Don't then. If you're not interested is little bit of crude statistical analysis and would rather some crude 'fight the fash' propoganda then by all means pm attcia and start a thread. Otherwise - tough shit.



This is a new wording of my username.


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## cockneyrebel (Mar 25, 2008)

> Let's have some postive thoughts people! Aerobics at 9 too! I'm sorry but it's compulsory.



It's nothing to do with positive thoughts. You can sit their until the cows come home saying "oh look the BNP are doing well", but if you don't come out with any ideas of how pro working class forces can counter their success then it becomes a bit pointless and you just end up nazel gazing.


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## butchersapron (Mar 25, 2008)

cockneyrebel said:


> It's nothing to do with positive thoughts. You can sit their until the cows come home saying "oh look the BNP are doing well", but if you don't come out with any ideas of how pro working class forces can counter their success then it becomes a bit pointless and you just end up nazel gazing.



So start your amazing thread about just that and don't demand that it happens on this already existing thead that's about something else.


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## butchersapron (Mar 25, 2008)

Attica said:


> Good call, i would hope there will be confrontation and not symbolic protest.



Yes, searchlight LUAF running around - working fine thus far.


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## cockneyrebel (Mar 25, 2008)

> So start your amazing thread about just that and don't demand that it happens on this already existing thead that's about something else.



Stop demanding I start another thread 

And as said I'm not demanding anything, I'm suggesting something.

Also it seems strange that you feel it's ok to comment in a negative way about people suggesting ways to help counter the BNP but you don't think it's ok to give a positive way of countering the BNP.

I mean if all you're gong to do is endlessly list the on-going positive BNP results what is the point? It's just total nazel gazing and avoids the more difficult question of what anyone is gonna do about it.


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## butchersapron (Mar 25, 2008)

That's right. All this thread is people "endlessly list[ing] the on-going positive BNP results". That's your base point securely established  -well done. Thers's been no discussion of stratgey or assements and predictions etc it's just  'endlessly list the on-going positive BNP results'Please carry on with demanding that this particular long running thread suddenly conforms to your own needs rather than starting a thread along the lines which you want this one to run.


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## The Black Hand (Mar 25, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Yes, searchlight LUAF running around - working fine thus far.



I think you are underestimating the potential turnout. They won't all be these sorts of clones, not by a long way. With the length of time they have to organise and resources at their disposal this time things could be interesting.


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## cockneyrebel (Mar 25, 2008)

> That's right. All this thread is people "endlessly list[ing] the on-going positive BNP results". That's your base point securely established -well done. Thers's been no discussion of stratgey or assements and predictions etc it's just 'endlessly list the on-going positive BNP results'Please carry on with demanding that this particular long running thread suddenly conforms to your own needs rather than starting a thread along the lines which you want this one to run.



Where did I say that this thread is *all* about the endless listing of positive BNP results? This is just you being pedantic as usual. What I'm saying is that what is the point of endlessly listing positive BNP results when it's already been established to anyone with a grasp of reality that the BNP is doing well.

It's also fairly clear to anyone what the current BNP strategy is, it would hardly take a genius to work it out.

Also I haven't demanded anything, but it seems to give you a little kick to say I have. All I'm doing is making a comment.

It's easy to nazel gaze and talk about how the BNP are doing so well, and isn't it so terrible that the far left can't see what to do etc but a lot harder to suggest what can be done to use pro-working class politics to counter whats on offer from the BNP. And no-one on the left from RESPECT, to the SP, to the IWCA has come up with anything in this regards outside tiny pockets.


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## butchersapron (Mar 25, 2008)

So start a thread on just that instead of pointing out the obvious over and over ona thread not designed to do that. If you think this thread is pointless, then please, do fuck off out of it and leave the other posters alone.


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## cockneyrebel (Mar 25, 2008)

Who are you to say what this thread should or shouldn't be about? Plenty of threads start on a certain subject and then branch out onto other stuff.

Anyway this is all getting a bit petty.


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## butchersapron (Mar 25, 2008)

Well, by the same token who are you to tell me what it should be about? I've got the 1000 post thread and what it's been about to back me up. You?

Stop being petty  then and make your thread if it's burning a hole in your pocket.


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## cockneyrebel (Mar 26, 2008)

> Well, by the same token who are you to tell me what it should be about? I've got the 1000 post thread and what it's been about to back me up. You?
> 
> Stop being petty then and make your thread if it's burning a hole in your pocket.



LOL were you drinking by any chance  

And just to say again I'm only making a suggestion, not telling you anything.


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## durruti02 (Mar 26, 2008)

cockneyrebel said:


> LOL were you drinking by any chance
> 
> And just to say again I'm only making a suggestion, not telling you anything.



hey you two .. its MY thread


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## durruti02 (Mar 27, 2008)

cockneyrebel said:


> Where did I say that this thread is *all* about the endless listing of positive BNP results? This is just you being pedantic as usual. What I'm saying is that what is the point of endlessly listing positive BNP results when it's already been established to anyone with a grasp of reality that the BNP is doing well.
> 
> It's also fairly clear to anyone what the current BNP strategy is, it would hardly take a genius to work it out.
> 
> ...



i do not disagree there should be threads on what to actually do .. but i thought we had had ones though the more the merrier! 

.. i do think it is STILL useful to have a thread ( this) to list their current votes / initiatives ..


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## audiotech (Mar 28, 2008)

Wellingborough BC Redwell West ward result (percentages in brackets):

Con 665 (59.01)
*BNP 177 (15.71)*
Lab 169 (15.00)
L-D 40 (3.55)
UKIP 39 (3.46)
Grn 37 (3.28)

Total 1127

On a slightly increased turnout the Conservative vote fell by exactly 18.5% and Labour by exactly 7.5%.


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## JimPage (Mar 28, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> I can't see the point of people responding to people putting up post after post about how well the BNP are doing by saying that they can't see the point of people responding to people putting up post after post about how well the BNP are doing.



i think because the majority of the left are still in denial about it. Look at Lnacaster Unity as a prime example, where they successfully con themsleves the BNP election results of recent times have been universally abysmal.


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## Joe Reilly (Mar 28, 2008)

JimPage said:


> i think because the majority of the left are still in denial about it. Look at Lnacaster Unity as a prime example, where they successfully con themsleves the BNP election results of recent times have been universally abysmal.



Not forgetting the most consistent apologist for the conservative left on here - step forward General Attica.


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## JimPage (Mar 28, 2008)

Facsist GLA Candidates nominated as follows
BNP Mayor of London
BNP GLA London wide list 
BNP and NF City and East 
NF Bexley and Bromley
NF Ealing and Hillingdon
NF Greenwich & Lewisham
NF South West


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## JimPage (Mar 28, 2008)

Very little heard on BNP candidates outside London in May. Full slates in Thurrock, Southend and Basildon announced however


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## The Black Hand (Mar 29, 2008)

Joe Reilly said:


> Not forgetting the most consistent apologist for the conservative left on here - step forward General Attica.



What the fuck are you on Joe? Talk about in denial - is it jus cos I called you ultra left

If you really are looking the ideas I have position themselves to your left as autonomous anti fascism is both inside the labour movement and outside it, and the conservative left are to your right.


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## JimPage (Mar 29, 2008)

Joe Reilly said:


> Not forgetting the most consistent apologist for the conservative left on here - step forward General Attica.



And i could add that both the Searchlight and the UAF Main site have accidentally forgot to mention the Gooshays result last week.


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## JimPage (Mar 29, 2008)

Especially for Attica who I think comes from thereabouts. BNP to fight 30 Candidates for the County Durham shadow authority elections in May


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## The Black Hand (Mar 29, 2008)

JimPage said:


> Especially for Attica who I think comes from thereabouts. BNP to fight 30 Candidates for the County Durham shadow authority elections in May



Am i bothered - wankers the lot of them. 

but thanks anyway  jim.


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## Joe Reilly (Mar 29, 2008)

JimPage said:


> Especially for Attica who I think comes from thereabouts. BNP to fight 30 Candidates for the County Durham shadow authority elections in May



Would seem the perfect opportunity to apply the 'anyone but fascism' approach (eg vote New Labour, Tory, Ukip) you would have thought. Afterall this is one of their weaker areas - up to now. Let's see if some of the big talkers on here, who urge others to follow an utterly failed strategy, step up to the plate - for once.


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## The Black Hand (Mar 29, 2008)

Joe Reilly said:


> Would seem the perfect opportunity to apply the 'anyone but fascism' approach (eg vote New Labour, Tory, Ukip) you would have thought. Afterall this is one of their weaker areas - up to now. Let's see if some of the big talkers on here, who urge others to follow an utterly failed strategy, step up to the plate - for once.



You haven't quite got what I am talking about yet Jim have you, or you wouldn't innapropriately put me into their camp. 

Please read "Autonomous Anti fascism" from MAYDAY magazine issue 1 here;

http://platypus1917.home.comcast.net/~platypus1917/mayday_uk_issue1_win2007-08.pdf

Issue 2 has at least 3 articles on anti fascism in it or so I hear.


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## butchersapron (Mar 29, 2008)

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/search.php?searchid=5489696


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## The Black Hand (Mar 29, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/search.php?searchid=5489696



Do you have a point?


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## The Black Hand (Apr 1, 2008)

Look at this - a Labour party analysis of a borough's election results - no less than 6 hard left independent councillors.

http://labourinsouthshields.com/wards.htm

This rather pisses all over the IWCA national number of 4 seats - sorry that's not national is it, it is 2 wards in Oxford


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## durruti02 (Apr 1, 2008)

Attica said:


> Look at this - a Labour party analysis of a borough's election results - no less than 6 hard left independent councillors.
> 
> http://labourinsouthshields.com/wards.htm
> 
> This rather pisses all over the IWCA national number of 4 seats - sorry that's not national is it, it is 2 wards in Oxford



not sure how you see the two counterposed


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## butchersapron (Apr 1, 2008)

Nor how an internal Labour document that would describe anything left of blair as 'hard left' is either encouraging or accuarate. Still. It's all about the IWCA isn't it attica.  A petty grudge carried on for 20 years is far more important to you clearly.

This, literally is all that this link says:



> The Borough of South Tyneside is made from 18 Wards and is represented by 54 Councillors  (3 councillors in each ward).
> 
> Labour 35, "Hard left" Independents 6, Progressives 5, Liberal Democrats 3, Conservative 3, "Soft Left" Independents 2



And what's worse - it's  a labour party document. Pathetic. Truly pathetic.


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## Louis MacNeice (Apr 2, 2008)

Attica said:


> Look at this - a Labour party analysis of a borough's election results - no less than 6 hard left independent councillors.
> 
> http://labourinsouthshields.com/wards.htm
> 
> This rather pisses all over the IWCA national number of 4 seats - sorry that's not national is it, it is 2 wards in Oxford



That would be this 'hard left' group - http://www.southtynesidealliance.info/5.html - the one which sought an alliance with both Tories and Liberals, the one which makes no mention of class politics...well done Attica.

Louis MacNeice


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## The Black Hand (Apr 2, 2008)

durruti02 said:


> not sure how you see the two counterposed



very easily. It is the 'dead left' or so we are told by you lot.


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## The Black Hand (Apr 2, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Nor how an internal Labour document that would describe anything left of blair as 'hard left' is either encouraging or accuarate. Still. It's all about the IWCA isn't it attica.  A petty grudge carried on for 20 years is far more important to you clearly.
> 
> This, literally is all that this link says:
> 
> And what's worse - it's  a labour party document. Pathetic. Truly pathetic.



No far from it. It's not at all about the IWCA Butchers you blind nobhed. You are part of the ever shrinking click which tries to big them up far more than they are *- or deserve. *

I merely put them in their objective place, which  is ULTRA LEFT IRRELEVANCE.

YOU have no knowledge of the left at all in the NE and would be better knowing soemthing about the wide reaching radical left traditions of the area before dismissing such evidence so easily. 

BTW similar documents are available from members of most of the big parties about all sorts of issues and people including this one so it cannot be as easily dismissed as you are trying to claim...

Ever greater bluster from you will never disguise your allegiance chosen in haste - rather than independent apriori investigation before an anti fascist position is taken which is my preferred route and the one I have clearly and openly pursued... and you know it.


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## The Black Hand (Apr 2, 2008)

Louis MacNeice said:


> That would be this 'hard left' group - http://www.southtynesidealliance.info/5.html - the one which sought an alliance with both Tories and Liberals, the one which makes no mention of class politics...well done Attica.
> 
> Louis MacNeice



You lot are the ones pretending you are not left wing remember! Your memory fails you so badly.

'Sought' is the operative word here, and IWCA collusion with the status quo is well known so you are in no position to lecture me on that one.

As for class politics, they don't have to be so old left like you lot and put it in ABC simpleton simplespeak. Anybody who knows the area also knows the working class political hegemony doesn't have to come out with crass politics. 

You are just aggravated cos somebody else is doing it better than you lot in ONE small area with no pretentions to a national approach. Ha hahahahahahhaahaha


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## The Black Hand (Apr 2, 2008)

In short you 3 big hitters have just been hit for 6!!


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## Louis MacNeice (Apr 2, 2008)

Attica said:


> You lot are the ones pretending you are not left wing remember! Your memory fails you so badly.
> 
> 'Sought' is the operative word here, and IWCA collusion with the status quo is well known so you are in no position to lecture me on that one.
> 
> ...



Hello Attica; once again well done, you've got me...well apart from the following: 

You are the one making claims about the Alliance being hard left; I was just pointing out this might be wide of the mark (my claim is that the IWCA is pro-working class).

You are the one always banging on about autonomy, so when you big up a group which, at its inception, sought alliances with both Liberals and Tories, it raises a smile. Perhaps at this stage of the game political independence would be a more realistic goal?

You are the one living in a ‘through the looking glass world’ where the absence of any mention of class politics becomes proof of 'working class political hegemony'; it might just be that there is no mention of class politics because the Alliance’s politics are based on the twin foundations of opposition to Labour and geography, neither of which has necessary class character.

All things considered, perhaps you should have gone and looked a little deeper into the politics on offer - i.e. done some research - rather than rely on a snippet of New Labour spin in a desperate effort to put one over on the 'irrelevant' IWCA. You might want to start by chasing down the accusations (coming from the right admittedly) that the Alliance promotes local business interests and is rather less than forthcoming about it's own internal goings on (promoting people as Alliance candidates, even though not registered with the electoral commission and without their agreement, isn’t too clever).

Go on have another go - Louis MacNeice


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## The Black Hand (Apr 2, 2008)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Go on have another go Louis



There is class politics in there. I do not think it can be taken as spin either as they counterpose 'hard' v.s 'soft' left either side of Labour, they could have called them all soft for example if they are just looking for an oppositional pov. 

The Alliance are just a variant of localist leftism who are feeling their way  forward without illusions. You on the other hand are full of illusions. The Alliance are sympotomatic of the wider malaise within working class political forms at the minute.

I think we are best accepting we have different opinions the bit where you cling onto the IWCa as some sort of 'new left' by itself I find to be part of the old left assumptions about 1 teleological way forward. Do you not think those times are gone? it is clear to a lot of people they have, so how do you square that theory with your incessant bigging up of the iwca in a near religious way?  

If we take the argument above as true you shouldn't replicate old left ways of doing politics, there has to be a substantial break with old ways of being too, rather than just your form - the visible politics.


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## Roxy641 (Apr 2, 2008)

*Core voters?*

Hi durruti02,

what I find even more worrying is the people that say that they voted for BNP as a protest vote.  If people that would never dream of voting for BNP decide to vote for them that certainly IS cause for concern.

Roxy641



durruti02 said:


> Article by Griffin is up on their website. I think it is important reading not only as they just polled 300k votes in local elections but it clearly states their strategy .. worrying reading, not just as this startegy is working but that the left seem incapable of understanding how and why it is .... obviously not going to link but not hard to find full article .. heres  alot of it .. sorry for cut and paste ..
> 
> The conventional politics won’t go away, of course, indeed it is our aim to step up the internal education process which turns protest vote new recruits (and there are plenty of those to be signed up over the next month or so, provided they are contacted and visited promptly) into fully-fledged and well informed nationalists. It is only what we are going to be doing with those new activists and older ones alike that is going to change:....."


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## Louis MacNeice (Apr 2, 2008)

Attica said:


> There is class politics in there. I do not think it can be taken as spin either as they counterpose 'hard' v.s 'soft' left either side of Labour, they could have called them all soft for example if they are just looking for an oppositional pov.
> 
> The Alliance are just a variant of localist leftism who are feeling their way  forward without illusions. You on the other hand are full of illusions. The Alliance are sympotomatic of the wider malaise within working class political forms at the minute.
> 
> ...



1. Where is the class poltics? Just saying it's there doesn't make it so.

2. If you don't think the New Labour piece is spin, then my previous comment about you living in a 'through the looking glass world' is even truer than I thought.

3. What are the illusions I'm full of; let's have some detail rather than mere assertion.

4. I do not see the IWCA as 'some sort of new left by itelf'. Indeed I have said this numerous times before on these boards; it's one way forward, not the way. 

5. I do not have a teleological view of change; indeed I have argued against such a view in lectures, seminars, conference presentations and published articles..oh and on here. 

6. I do not incessantly big up the IWCA (religously or otherwise...I reserve my fevour for bigging up running http://www.dpfr.org.uk/album/2008/Skyline/slides/l10%20357.php); although sometimes I do try to correct some of your more outlandish posts...see above.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## Joe Reilly (Apr 2, 2008)

Attica said:


> As for class politics, they don't have to be so old left like you lot and put it in ABC simpleton simplespeak. Anybody who knows the area also knows the working class political hegemony doesn't have to come out with crass politics.



Or class politics. Or indeed _any_ politics at all presumably? This bigging up of a cross class, cross party, eccentricity coupled with a pronounced faith in the ridiculous Lancaster UAF, reinforces the General's position as the strong man of the conservative left, at least on this site. Outside of Cr's wilder excesses of ore, has anyone ever appeared so consistently inconsistent and ridiculous?


----------



## The Black Hand (Apr 2, 2008)

Joe Reilly said:


> Or class politics. Or indeed _any_ politics at all presumably? This bigging up of a cross class, cross party, eccentricity coupled with a pronounced faith in the ridiculous Lancaster UAF, reinforces the General's position as the strong man of the conservative left, at least on this site. Outside of Cr's wilder excesses of ore, has anyone ever appeared so consistently inconsistent and ridiculous?



How bizarre how bizarre Joe - lying as well, you are the wierd ultra left headbanger.

 I have nothing to do with or faith in Lancaster UAF.


----------



## The Black Hand (Apr 2, 2008)

Louis MacNeice said:


> 1. Where is the class poltics? Just saying it's there doesn't make it so.
> 
> 2. If you don't think the New Labour piece is spin, then my previous comment about you living in a 'through the looking glass world' is even truer than I thought.
> 
> ...




really - what articles are those. I did not know you had written anything at all.

You and others such as Joe are clearly guilty of bigging up the IWCA as if they had some sort of good politics. Get over it. DO something else as well and operate outside their stupid loop, otherwise you are guilty of old left politics - the illusion that one group is OK.

There is class politics. If you can't spot it you are more stupid than you appear.

If the Labour doc is spin  you are the libertarian spin master for the IWCA.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Apr 2, 2008)

Attica said:


> How bizarre how bizarre Joe - lying as well, you are the wierd ultra left headbanger.
> 
> I have nothing to do with or faith in Lancaster UAF.



This wouldn't be you then:

"It is a mistake to underestimate these people [Lancaster UAF] I think Jim. The article you refer too is sensible as you said."

Louis MacNeice


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 2, 2008)

Attica said:


> If the Labour doc is spin  you are the libertarian spin master for the IWCA.



Have i been sacked?


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Apr 2, 2008)

Attica said:


> really - what articles are those. I did not know you had written anything at all.
> 
> You and others such as Joe are clearly guilty of bigging up the IWCA as if they had some sort of good politics. Get over it. DO something else as well and operate outside their stupid loop, otherwise you are guilty of old left politics - the illusion that one group is OK.
> 
> ...



Still no substance, just more accusation and assertion; all of which is a bit odd seeing as how the IWCA doesn't interest you at all. 

Louis (BA's job share partner) MacNeice


----------



## The Black Hand (Apr 2, 2008)

Louis MacNeice said:


> This wouldn't be you then:
> 
> "It is a mistake to underestimate these people [Lancaster UAF] I think Jim. The article you refer too is sensible as you said."
> 
> Louis MacNeice



That is irrelevant and shows your desperation and fascination with MY politics - i really am not that interested to that extent. Do you keep 'enemies of old left' files on people? You lot should have more open minds than you do.

I said it was a mistake to underestimate them, that is way different from having ANY political support for them, same goes for saying saying 1 article of theirs is 'sensible'. I didn't say it was any good Dear me - you are getting wierd with this line of approach.


----------



## The Black Hand (Apr 2, 2008)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Still no substance, just more accusation and assertion; all of which is a bit odd seeing as how the IWCA doesn't interest you at all.
> 
> Louis (BA's job share partner) MacNeice



YOU HAVE NO SUBSTANCE - I asked you what articles you had written and you have not replied. I was first


----------



## Red O (Apr 2, 2008)

Three of those 'hard left' councillors were originally elected on the Labour ticket and only declared themselves as independents in 2004. HTH.


----------



## JimPage (Apr 2, 2008)

Back to the elections, 12 standing in Nuneaton, 4 in Swindon

Nominations close friday


----------



## audiotech (Apr 2, 2008)

Back to the title of the thread. 

I see a Church leader has had a confession and declared that he was ‘stupid’ to sign up to the BNP.

Never!


----------



## durruti02 (Apr 2, 2008)

Roxy641 said:


> Hi durruti02,
> 
> what I find even more worrying is the people that say that they voted for BNP as a protest vote.  If people that would never dream of voting for BNP decide to vote for them that certainly IS cause for concern.
> 
> Roxy641



yes mate totally .. and the worrying thing is that this 'protest' vote can be used my griffin and recycled into real fascism .. i find it hard to believe that is possible .. BUT if things get economically far worse ( a possibility ) then maybe ..


----------



## durruti02 (Apr 2, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Have i been sacked?


i thought i was?


----------



## durruti02 (Apr 2, 2008)

JimPage said:


> Back to the elections, 12 standing in Nuneaton, 4 in Swindon
> 
> Nominations close friday


 12 in nuneaton is a lot .. ex mining town though possibly white flight from cov .. anyone now much about the place?? ..  except used to be the second biggest non league team! 20k ground and all


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 2, 2008)

They did well  in a local election there last year 21.5% and 36% and seem to have an active local group.


----------



## cockneyrebel (Apr 2, 2008)

Well I'm glad butchers that you didn't want me derailing the thread. I mean the childish crap posted above is clearly very important.

And wait a minute a newsflash coming in. Apparently the BNP are doing well. Knock me down with a feather.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 2, 2008)

Fantastic post CR. Keep up the good work.


----------



## The Black Hand (Apr 2, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Fantastic post CR. Keep up the good work.



He was calling u & Luis


----------



## cockneyrebel (Apr 2, 2008)

> Fantastic post CR. Keep up the good work.



Well however bad it was it can't have been any worse than the crap in the posts above it.


----------



## cockneyrebel (Apr 3, 2008)

While Griffin might usually have his head screwed on the nut jobs are still in there with the BNP:

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/stand...+sacked+over+'rape+is+a+myth'+blog/article.do



> A senior BNP official has been sacked as a London Assembly election candidate after the Evening Standard revealed how he had described rape as a "myth" and said "some women are like gongs - they need to be struck regularly".



But it's ok because:



> BNP deputy leader Simon Darby called the Standard-story a "smear" and said Mr Eriksen'sremarks had been taken " completely out of context".



Indeed this is clearly taken out of context:



> To suggest that rape, when conducted without violence, is a serious crime is like suggesting force-feeding a woman chocolate cake is a heinous offence. A woman would be more inconvenienced by having her handbag snatched.


----------



## cesare (Apr 3, 2008)

Catch up cockers

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=7326836#post7326836

Get yer head out of yer bum and start watching the world around you, including General


----------



## JimPage (Apr 4, 2008)

Simon Darby blog confirms over 500 local candidates standing in May

Nominations had to be in a few minuites ago, so am sure will find out soon enough where they are standing

Some early confirmations. Derby 2, Daventry 1, Worthing 3, Birmingham 40, Nuneaton 12, Carlisle 9


----------



## JimPage (Apr 4, 2008)

Nick Knowles blog on the Searchlight website is doing a far more rapidly updated total than I can


----------



## The Black Hand (Apr 4, 2008)

JimPage said:


> Simon Darby blog confirms over 500 local candidates standing in May
> 
> Nominations had to be in a few minuites ago, so am sure will find out soon enough where they are standing
> 
> Some early confirmations. Derby 2, Daventry 1, Worthing 3, Birmingham 40, Nuneaton 12, Carlisle 9



Approx 250/300 down on last time?


----------



## The Black Hand (Apr 4, 2008)

JimPage said:


> Nick Knowles blog on the Searchlight website is doing a far more rapidly updated total than I can



it appears bradford bnps NOT doing so well - BNP struggling to find candidates and another far right fringe group is standing 9 candidates against the BNP's 8, and in the same wards...

North West candidates
Here's the North West tally so far:

Liverpool 11

St Helens 10

Sefton 6

Wirral 2

Knowsley 2


And also 6 in Salford.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 4, 2008)

Attica said:


> it appears bradford bnps NOT doing so well - BNP struggling to find candidates and another far right fringe group is standing 9 candidates against the BNP's 8, and in the same wards...



Where did you hear that?


----------



## The Black Hand (Apr 4, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Where did you hear that?


 From where the previous message implied.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 4, 2008)

Can't find it - i can see it saying they've heard 6 in bradford though, that's why i was asking.

All these are provisional i think anyway, nominees not officially published till tuedsay.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 4, 2008)

BNP say they're standing 625 - 120 or so down on last year. Only 30 in Wales. Full slates in Southend-On-Sea, Basildon Thurrock, Broxbourne, Leeds, Birmingham and Sunderland...


----------



## JimPage (Apr 4, 2008)

625 seats will be fough in in england, 30 in wales

included is 

Liverpool 11 , Salford 6 , OLdham 2 , Bury 8, Sefton 6 , Wirral 2 
Knowsley 2 , St Helens 10 , Manchester 3, Bradford 8, 
Kirklees 20 , Barnsley 20 , Rotherham 5 , Leeds 33 ,Sunderland 25 , Newcastle 12, Stoke-on-Trent 10 ,Sandwell 12 , Birmingham 40 , Tamworth 1 
Nuneaton & Bedworth 12, Wolverhampton 2, Amber Valley 7 Derby 2 
Broxborne 12 , Three Rivers 2, Colchester 1 , Thurrock 16 ,Southend 17 
Basildon 14 , Castle Point 3, Crawley 6, Caermarthen 2, Swansea 4, Lincoln 5, CCarlisle 9, Barrow 2, Northumberland 1 South Tyneside 13, North Tyneside 4, Dudley 10, Wrexham 9, Worthing 2, Gwynedd 1, Bridgend 1, Daventry 1, Solihull 12


----------



## JimPage (Apr 4, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> BNP say they're standing 625 - 120 or so down on last year. Only 30 in Wales. Full slates in Southend-On-Sea, Basildon Thurrock, Broxbourne, Leeds, Birmingham and Sunderland...



as to reducted numbers, there were over 10,000 seats up for grabs last year, about 4,000 this year, and no elections is a whole swathe of where they are organised

and of course, their internal splits have hit them hard in some areas, that is obvoius. however, their key wards will generally be covered


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 4, 2008)

If i have my facts right this will be the 2004 seats being fought again - that time they stood 312 candiadates, so they've just about exactly doubled their candidates. 

2004/these seats was the year that the BNP vote really took off, so these seats are ones where they've done well in before and would have been trying to put down real local roots in.Now we'll see what results this brings for them...


----------



## JimPage (Apr 4, 2008)

Attica said:


> it appears bradford bnps NOT doing so well - BNP struggling to find candidates and another far right fringe group is standing 9 candidates against the BNP's 8, and in the same wards...
> .



considering Griffin expelled the whole of their Bradford branch commitee, who went with the rebel grouping, not surprising. it will be intereting to see hwo many this democratic nationalist mob put up nationwide.


----------



## JimPage (Apr 4, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> If i have my facts right this will be the 2004 seats being fought again - that time they stood 312 candiadates, so they've just about exactly doubled their candidates.
> 
> 2004/these seats was the year that the BNP vote really took off, so these seats are ones where they've done well in before and would have been trying to put down real local roots in.Now we'll see what results this brings for them...



absoultely correct figures, 312. the only variant is the Welsh Local elections, which were last fought in 2003, where they raised 4 candidates


----------



## The Black Hand (Apr 4, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Can't find it - i can see it saying they've heard 6 in bradford though, that's why i was asking.
> 
> All these are provisional i think anyway, nominees not officially published till tuedsay.



Access the Knowles blog from the Hope not Hate website.


----------



## The Black Hand (Apr 4, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> If i have my facts right this will be the 2004 seats being fought again - that time they stood 312 candiadates, so they've just about exactly doubled their candidates.
> 
> 2004/these seats was the year that the BNP vote really took off, so these seats are ones where they've done well in before and would have been trying to put down real local roots in.Now we'll see what results this brings for them...



So you're saying if they've stood still that is a defeat, & if they've done worse a rout....


----------



## JimPage (Apr 5, 2008)

More
Blaeau Gwent,  1, Conwy 8, flintshire 2, Rossendale 4, Hastings 4, Pendle 4,  Epping Forest 12


----------



## JimPage (Apr 8, 2008)

Few more
Rochdale 1, Oldham 2, Blackburn 1, Hitchin 3, Hartlepool 2, North Tyneside 4, Doncaster 3, Plymouth 2, Stroud 1, Bassetlaw 1, Redditch 1, Tamworth 1,  Burnley 10, Manchester 3, Trafford 1, Gateshead 12, Coventry 13, Rushmoor 4, Hartlepool 2, Tameside 8, Stockport 8


England first fighting 8 wards
Blackburn 2, Oldham 2, Burnley 1, Milton Keynes 1, Preston 1 , Isle of Wight 1.

NF fighting 5 in Birmingham, 1 in North Tyneside


----------



## lewislewis (Apr 8, 2008)

News from Wales is that they have had a community councillor returned unopposed in the depths of Carmarthenshire (Penygroes), and the same guy (Kevin Edwards) is also standing in the same ward at county level where it's going to be a straight fight between the BNP and the sitting Plaid councillor. Going to be an interesting fascism vs Welsh nationalism contest.

But the main threat is in Wrexham and north-east Wales.


----------



## gregorysgirl (Apr 9, 2008)

Sunderland BNP would need 25 candidates for a full slate.  I predict they'll only have 24.  Scratch Sunderland from the full slate list.


----------



## JimPage (Apr 9, 2008)

lewislewis said:


> News from Wales is that they have had a community councillor returned unopposed in the depths of Carmarthenshire (Penygroes), and the same guy (Kevin Edwards) is also standing in the same ward at county level where it's going to be a straight fight between the BNP and the sitting Plaid councillor. Going to be an interesting fascism vs Welsh nationalism contest.
> 
> But the main threat is in Wrexham and north-east Wales.



4 more unopposed community councillors in Wrexham


----------



## JimPage (Apr 9, 2008)

lewislewis said:


> News from Wales is that they have had a community councillor returned unopposed in the depths of Carmarthenshire (Penygroes), and the same guy (Kevin Edwards) is also standing in the same ward at county level where it's going to be a straight fight between the BNP and the sitting Plaid councillor. Going to be an interesting fascism vs Welsh nationalism contest.
> 
> But the main threat is in Wrexham and north-east Wales.



4 more unopposed community councillors in Wrexham


----------



## JimPage (Apr 9, 2008)

And a few more, apologies if reperted

2 Tower Hamlets, by election. 1 Bournemouth by election. Bury 5. Wigan 7. Sheffield 8. Wakefield 12. Walsall 1. Cannock 1. Calderdale 9. Rugby 1. Cheshire County Council 5. Northumberland County Council 1. Wokingham 1. Hatfield 1. Bassetlaw 1.


----------



## JimPage (Apr 9, 2008)

JimPage said:


> And a few more, apologies if reperted
> 
> 2 Tower Hamlets, by election. 1 Bournemouth by election. Bury 5. Wigan 7. Sheffield 8. Wakefield 12. Walsall 1. Cannock 1. Calderdale 9. Rugby 1. Cheshire County Council 5.  Wokingham 1. Hatfield 1. QUOTE]


----------



## durruti02 (Apr 9, 2008)

lewislewis said:


> News from Wales is that they have had a community councillor returned unopposed in the depths of Carmarthenshire (Penygroes), and the same guy (Kevin Edwards) is also standing in the same ward at county level where it's going to be a straight fight between the BNP and the sitting Plaid councillor. Going to be an interesting fascism vs Welsh nationalism contest.
> 
> But the main threat is in Wrexham and north-east Wales.



thats depressing .. thats my hen wlad fy'nhadau .. another former mining area .. suspect he will get hammered by plaid .. THOUGH i gather there has been a lot of people moving into this area due to the M4/A48??? swansea commuters?? is this right?? 

( when i was in llanelli last year we saw (and abused) a small N92 society march leather jackets and jacks and dragons (all out of towners i think but pretty surreal still ) 

http://www.thisissouthwales.co.uk/d...4041&folderPk=88499&pNodeId=161375&bustcache=

note the usual swansea idiots commenting

and    ( broken link) 

http://regionalnews.   bnp.   org.   uk/bnp-wales-region/west-wales-bnp-holds-it-first-meeting_3121.html


----------



## Joe Reilly (Apr 9, 2008)

JimPage said:


> 4 more unopposed community councillors in Wrexham




Isn't that taking 'no platform' a bit far?


----------



## The Black Hand (Apr 10, 2008)

gregorysgirl said:


> Sunderland BNP would need 25 candidates for a full slate.  I predict they'll only have 24.  Scratch Sunderland from the full slate list.



Interesting.


----------



## lewislewis (Apr 10, 2008)

Nobody in Penygroes even knew the BNP was standing. If people had known they would have put themselves up. The people commenting on that news story are almost certainly not people from Swansea and are BNP trolls. Though of course the BNP do have members in Swansea who will be working the internet like the rest of the party.

Of course one of the most interesting points about the BNP in Wales is that asylum seekers do not live here in great numbers, neither do immigrants especially when compared to some parts of England. Thus the Presiding Officer of our Assembly was suggesting at the Searchlight Cymru launch the other day that councils could be armed with all the proper facts and figures to be issued whenever racists stand for election. Because at the moment there is no place in Wales really that can be considered 'overrun' by foreigners. 

And indeed in the Cardiff borough where the majority of Wales' ethnic minorities live, the BNP aren't even standing.

http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/news...s-against-national-front-lies-91466-20743890/


----------



## lewislewis (Apr 11, 2008)

More unopposed BNP councillors getting in on the non-political town & community councils.

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/nor...ncil-seats-unopposed-in-conwy-55578-20738044/


----------



## durruti02 (Apr 11, 2008)

does the bnp in wales tap into a anti welsh nationalist vein do you think?


----------



## The Black Hand (Apr 11, 2008)

lewislewis said:


> More unopposed BNP councillors getting in on the non-political town & community councils.
> 
> http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/nor...ncil-seats-unopposed-in-conwy-55578-20738044/



That happened in CUmbria and was on local TV news that night, 2 parish seats.


----------



## niclas (Apr 12, 2008)

durruti02 said:


> does the bnp in wales tap into a anti welsh nationalist vein do you think?



Their stronghold in Wales is along the N Wales coast, where there's a clear majority of English born people. Many of these are white flighters from the northern cities. The BNP organiser, and one of those elected to a community council, is a case in point - ex-army, ex-prison officer, moved from Kent to N Wales and became a property developer (aka ripping off locals). A particular nasty piece of scum. 
 They're v confused about Welsh identity etc.


----------



## JimPage (Apr 12, 2008)

An almost complete list now up on searchlight website, which misses 3 by elections in London (inluding first time outing in Barnet) and Bournemouth. 617 in total including these, excluding Parish and Town council elections. An absences of candidates where they have stood before and there are no candidates, due to their split, like Hull and Scunthorpe, very frew in Blackburn and Oldham and a mysterious absence in Exeter and Swindon. A strong showing in Metropolitan Districts- 348 Candidates as opposed to 682 for Lib Bems, Tories 812 and Labour 826 (out of a possibel 827 seats). In view of their split, a pretty impressive show by them


----------



## Divisive Cotton (Apr 12, 2008)

JimPage said:


> And a few more, apologies if reperted
> 
> 2 Tower Hamlets, by election. 1 Bournemouth by election. Bury 5. Wigan 7. Sheffield 8. Wakefield 12. Walsall 1. Cannock 1. Calderdale 9. Rugby 1. Cheshire County Council 5. Northumberland County Council 1. Wokingham 1. Hatfield 1. Bassetlaw 1.



I don't understand this list... two what in Tower Hamlets? Two councillors


----------



## JimPage (Apr 12, 2008)

Divisive Cotton said:


> I don't understand this list... two what in Tower Hamlets? Two councillors



No, 2 council by-elections in Millwall and Weavers ward, both being fought by BNP


----------



## JimPage (Apr 12, 2008)

http://www.uaf.org.uk/news.asp?choice=80411
Detials of UAF activities. Quite why they are leafletting in Hull, with no Fascist Canddiates beats me though


----------



## ddraig (Apr 14, 2008)

Bridgend organising against BNP 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

info i got today that i thought might be useful to put on here


> Bridgend Council Election - organising against the BNP
> 
> 
> Dear All - please forward this to anyone who might help
> ...


----------



## thelibrarian (Apr 14, 2008)

lewislewis said:


> Nobody in Penygroes even knew the BNP was standing. If people had known they would have put themselves up. The people commenting on that news story are almost certainly not people from Swansea and are BNP trolls. Though of course the BNP do have members in Swansea who will be working the internet like the rest of the party.
> 
> Of course one of the most interesting points about the BNP in Wales is that asylum seekers do not live here in great numbers, neither do immigrants especially when compared to some parts of England. Thus the Presiding Officer of our Assembly was suggesting at the Searchlight Cymru launch the other day that councils could be armed with all the proper facts and figures to be issued whenever racists stand for election. Because at the moment there is no place in Wales really that can be considered 'overrun' by foreigners.
> 
> ...



they win either way when it comes to these candidates unelected. Obviously they can add them to their tally of responsible officials but perhaps they would actually prefer the burst of local publicity or even national publicity caused by an outraged local leftwing campaign to force an election in such cases than for these people rather to just quietly take their seats in little known parish councils of no power or importance. The blonde bombshell in that Sussex village was incredibly good publicity for them for all the right reasons,I don't think they would mind too much that in the end she was narrowly defeated by a large campaign. It made the national press with about as ideal an image of a BNP member as they'll ever be able to show off. And of course everyone in that area will now be aware of the party's existence there. The first priority for any minor political party anywhere is make themselves talk of the town


----------



## JHE (Apr 14, 2008)

JimPage said:


> No, 2 council by-elections in Millwall and Weavers ward, both being fought by BNP



The voters in *Millwall* will also get the chance to vote for al-Respeq (GG) or for the Lost List - the Social Workers formerly known as al-Respeq.  The fools couldn't resist standing against each other.

"We're Real Respeq!"
"No.  We're Real Respeq!"

In *Weavers* there is an al-Respeq (GG) candidate, but it is not clear whether the voters will get the chance to vote for the Lost List.  The Social Workers and their few chums selected Shamsun Murshid (wife of Kumar Murshid) as their candidate.  However, on the Tower Hamladesh site no one by exactly that name is listed and no candidate is listed as standing for the Lost List.

http://www.towerhamlets.gov.uk/templates/news/detail.cfm?newsid=9148

Is Niru Murshid the same person as Shamsun Murshid?  If so, why is no party name listed?

If nobody is now standing for the Social Workers' Lost List in Weavers ward, why the change of mind?


It seems unlikely that the Social Workers stood down for anti-BNP unity in Weavers, given that they are still contesting Millwall.



On a slightly different point, then, haven't the Social Workers been shouting for years that when the BNP stands, we must vote for whoever has the best chance of beating the BNP candidate?  In Weavers ward, I suppose, that's the Lib Dem and in Millwall it's the Tory.  Happy voting!



Would a passing Social Worker, or Jim Page, like to clarify either issue?


----------



## JimPage (Apr 15, 2008)

JHE said:


> On a slightly different point, then, haven't the Social Workers been shouting for years that when the BNP stands, we must vote for whoever has the best chance of beating the BNP candidate?  In Weavers ward, I suppose, that's the Lib Dem and in Millwall it's the Tory.  Happy voting!
> 
> Would a passing Social Worker, or Jim Page, like to clarify either issue?



in both wards, Respects Left List will slaughter them, so vote RLL


----------



## JHE (Apr 15, 2008)

JimPage said:


> in both wards, Respects Left List will slaughter them, so vote RLL



You are convinced, then, that RLL, as you call it, is standing in Weavers?

Is Niru Murshid the RLL candidate?  Is Niru Murshid the same person as Shamsun Murshid (the selected RLL candidate)?   Why is there no party name at all?  Is it all another Social Work balls up?

(Rebecca Jane Townesend, the Social Worker standing in Millwall, has a party label.)


----------



## The Black Hand (Apr 18, 2008)

ddraig said:


> Bridgend organising against BNP
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> info i got today that i thought might be useful to put on here



Thanks.


----------



## audiotech (Apr 19, 2008)

Some might want to catch this:

Archive Hour
A Rage in Dalston
Saturday 19 April 2008 20:00-21:00 (Radio 4 FM)

Alan Dein uncovers a little known story of postwar conflict. For four years after 1945, London and the South East witnessed vicious confrontations between the remnants of Oswald Mosley's British Union of Fascists and Jewish ex-servicemen organised in the 43 Group.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/archivehour/pip/ev26o/


----------



## durruti02 (Apr 19, 2008)

MC5 said:


> Some might want to catch this:
> 
> Archive Hour
> A Rage in Dalston
> ...



while it is good this camapaign is being covered again, it is hardly being 'uncovered'! 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/43_Group

http://www.hackneyindependent.org/films/the_43_group_2000.html

http://www.amazon.co.uk/43-Group-Untold-Against-Fascism/dp/0903738759


----------



## PaulOK (Apr 20, 2008)

durruti02 said:


> does the bnp in wales tap into a anti welsh nationalist vein do you think?



Nick Griffin, when he was a leader in the old Political Soldier NF in the late 80's, was an advocate for full Welsh independence under the slogan "Europe of the thousand flags". Indeed the old National Front News of that time would run stories heaping praise upon the Mudiad Amddiffyn Cymru and Meibion Glyndwr groups!

He has moved on since then on this issue, as with most others, and I would guess the arguments used in places like Wales and Scotland would be those based around the supposed threat of non-White immigration.


----------



## treelover (Apr 20, 2008)

I suspect that if the BNP do well in the local elections, then there will be an upsurge in AF/anti far right activity, particularly amongst young people. The dwindling SWP will organise big united front meetings (with no space for those who have a nuanced view on immigration, etc) where said young people are harangued into hyper activity, will be initially enthused, then become dissolussioned with the sects and then angry and finally pack it in, the eternal cycle continues...


----------



## PaulOK (Apr 20, 2008)

treelover said:


> I suspect that if the BNP do well in the local elections, then there will be an upsurge in AF/anti far right activity, particularly amongst young people. The dwindling SWP will organise big united front meetings (with no space for those who have a nuanced view on immigration, etc) where said young people are harangued into hyper activity, will be initially enthused, then become dissolussioned with the sects and then angry and finally pack it in, the eternal cycle continues...




I agree...A large Fascist vote could spur on anti-fascists to re-organise and re-assess, hopefully it will. However, this will present real problems as the nature of the fascist beast has changed. The old ANL relied on the Fascists marching, seeking confrontation through provocative meetings (Southall 79) and large and successful carnivals. The BNP no longer march and restrict their campaigning to solidly White areas so are a much harder target to hit. The SWP and their various fronts have always been terrible at engaging with people in their communities - they much prefer reaching people in the thinning band of highly Unionised workplaces, demonstrations and Carnival type events. Thus, the field has effectively been left on for the BNP. Fighting Fascism has always been far more difficult a proposition than fighting apartheid, the War, etc. There the enemies are in Pretoria, the Pentagon, Downing Street and are abstract and can be shouted at from a distance. Fascists, however, are down the local pub, campaigning on the High Street, in the Council Chamber, going door-to-door in the local community and, therefore, take a lot more physical courage to confront and clearer politics to argue against. The SWP re-launched the ANL in 1991. They never talk or discuss this venture today as it failed and it's been airbrushed out of history. The UAF looks like going the same way sadly.


----------



## tbaldwin (Apr 21, 2008)

PaulOK said:


> Fighting Fascism has always been far more difficult a proposition than fighting apartheid, the War, etc. There the enemies are in Pretoria, the Pentagon, Downing Street and are abstract and can be shouted at from a distance. Fascists, however, are down the local pub, campaigning on the High Street, in the Council Chamber, going door-to-door in the local community and, therefore, take a lot more physical courage to confront and clearer politics to argue against. The SWP re-launched the ANL in 1991. They never talk or discuss this venture today as it failed and it's been airbrushed out of history. The UAF looks like going the same way sadly.



I found it a lot easier to smack tony lecomber,nick griffin etc than to get at PW Botha...I would have tried shouting but my voice is quite weak and im easily dissuaded by negativity passed on to me by my mother.


----------



## JimPage (Apr 22, 2008)

PaulOK said:


> . The SWP re-launched the ANL in 1991. They never talk or discuss this venture today as it failed and it's been airbrushed out of history. The UAF looks like going the same way sadly.



Interesting that as a prelude to the Carnival this weekend, UAF have  announced an "ANL March"

We really are going back to 1978 here. However, in 1978, the ANL were already impacting on NF votes- i cant see this happening of the last clutch of council by elections are anything to go by

One final by election to keep your eyes on in Hinckley this thursday (with ex NF Leader Mick Shore standing for the BNP)


----------



## KeyboardJockey (Apr 22, 2008)

JimPage said:


> Interesting that as a prelude to the Carnival this weekend, UAF have  announced an "ANL March"
> 
> We really are going back to 1978 here. However, in 1978, the ANL were already impacting on NF votes- i cant see this happening of the last clutch of council by elections are anything to go by



Oh fuck! Talk about using a previously failed policy again.  Back then the NF didn't really have a base now the bnp have loads.

Looks like the Carnival and the march is going to be one long festival of preaching to the converted that will do fuck all good outside.


JimPage said:


> One final by election to keep your eyes on in Hinckley this thursday (with ex NF Leader Mick Shore standing for the BNP)



I will.


----------



## JimPage (Apr 22, 2008)

KeyboardJockey said:


> Oh fuck! Talk about using a previously failed policy again.  Back then the NF didn't really have a base now the bnp have loads.
> .



Not true. At the 1977 GLC Elections before the formation of the ANL- the BNP were polling huge votes in individual parliamentary constituencies including some over 10% in Hackney, Tower Hamlets, Haringey and Newham. They were defeated within a year. The policy of the ANL Mark 1, Propoganda, Violence and Rock against Racism worked then, and with a few adjustments could work again


----------



## KeyboardJockey (Apr 22, 2008)

JimPage said:


> Not true. At the 1977 GLC Elections before the formation of the ANL- the BNP were polling huge votes in individual parliamentary constituencies including some over 10% in Hackney, Tower Hamlets, Haringey and Newham. They were defeated within a year. The policy of the ANL Mark 1, Propoganda, Violence and Rock against Racism worked then, and with a few adjustments could work again



But the bnp are far more widespread than the NF back then. Not sure about the violence now though.  Back then although they polled highly in some constituencies they were far more associated with general thuggery than the bnp are now.

I think the bnp are more worrying than the nf as the bnp have a far wider appeal than just the sad meathead faction.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 22, 2008)

The NF had high end stuff, the modern BNP has low end stuff. Diff game.


----------



## KeyboardJockey (Apr 22, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> The NF had high end stuff, the modern BNP has low end stuff. Diff game.



I'm assuming you are talking about class loyalties among the fash?  If so;

What about later when they start to get a hold in middle class former Tory areas?  Its not inconcievable.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 22, 2008)

KeyboardJockey said:


> I'm assuming you are talking about class loyalties among the fash?  If so;
> 
> What about later when they start to get a hold in middle class former Tory areas?  Its not inconcievable.



Nah, i meant the NF had no roots and so could be blown away. The BNP have roots and can't. The battles of the next decade have been set.


----------



## KeyboardJockey (Apr 22, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Nah, i meant the NF had no roots and so could be blown away. The BNP have roots and can't. The battles of the next decade have been set.



aha thanks for that.  This is the worry about the bnp as opposed to the NF.  They've played the long community politics game and have done well for it sadly. 

However, I do recall a bit more 'flags and deferrence' amongst the fash of my much younger days (couldn't help but meet them in Newham then) than is there with the bnp.  So maybe there was a bit of residual class deference in the old nf which is not in the new bnp.


----------



## audiotech (Apr 22, 2008)

At it's height the NF had about 20,000 members. The BNP have about 7,000.

The NF had regular meetings, marches and street sales of NF news. NF was scrawled on walls in every part of the city I was at the time. There were certain pubs and areas you avoided. Political meetings and events were attacked on regular occasions. That included Labour party meetings as well as the Communist Party and SWP. Bookshops too.


----------



## KeyboardJockey (Apr 22, 2008)

MC5 said:


> At it's height the NF had about 20,000 members. The BNP have about 7,000.
> 
> The NF had regular meetings, marches and street sales of NF news. NF was scrawled on walls in every part of the city I was at the time. There were certain pubs and areas you avoided. Political meetings and events were attacked on regular occasions. That included Labour party meetings as well as the Communist Party and SWP. Bookshops too.



But although you have less members it was more noticable and less insiduous as the growth of the bnp.  They've silenced the meatheads who made up the majority of fash activity at the time and are using the electoral route to influence. 

Theres more votes in doing the community politics stuff and appearing to listen to the voiceless that the bnp are doing than shoving shit through peoples doors (at least until they gain any power).   They've learned that so I think the bnp are more worrying than the nf of old despite the nf's propensity for violence.


----------



## audiotech (Apr 22, 2008)

KeyboardJockey said:


> But although you have less members it was more noticable and less insiduous as the growth of the bnp.  They've silenced the meatheads who made up the majority of fash activity at the time and are using the electoral route to influence.
> 
> Theres more votes in doing the community politics stuff and appearing to listen to the voiceless that the bnp are doing than shoving shit through peoples doors (at least until they gain any power).   They've learned that so I think the bnp are more worrying than the nf of old despite the nf's propensity for violence.



The violence is always there when it comes to fascist parties. Emphasis on electoral or violent methods is a matter of tactics rather than strategy. The same political outlook, social base and orientation often underlie both political thuggery and the suit wearing respectability of much of the extreme right. The organisations which constitute the two tactical faces of contemporary fascism also share members.


----------



## KeyboardJockey (Apr 22, 2008)

MC5 said:


> The violence is always there when it comes to fascist parties. Emphasis on electoral or violent methods is a matter of tactics rather than strategy. The same political outlook, social base and orientation often underlie both political thuggery and the suit wearing respectability of much of the extreme right. The organisations which constitute the two tactical faces of contemporary fascism also share members.



I couldn't agree more.  The ballot box strategy seems to be working very well for them. I don't doubt that the thugs are still there ready to be brought in when necessary though.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 22, 2008)

MC5 said:


> At it's height the NF had about 20,000 members. The BNP have about 7,000.
> 
> The NF had regular meetings, marches and street sales of NF news. NF was scrawled on walls in every part of the city I was at the time. There were certain pubs and areas you avoided. Political meetings and events were attacked on regular occasions. That included Labour party meetings as well as the Communist Party and SWP. Bookshops too.



They had 17 000 menbers for two years tops. And no elected reps. The BNP has around 0o, has consolidated a 5000 plus membership and has extended it's reach to far more than the trad areas whilst picking up record numbers of votes.

Please, stop telling yourself and othersthis nonsense. Do you really think holding stupid rallies is the true measure of poltical importance? In 2008? Even Griffin is in advance of you then. Do grow up.


----------



## audiotech (Apr 22, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> They had 17 000 menbers for two years tops. And no elected reps. The BNP has around 0o, has consolidated a 5000 plus membership and has extended it's reach to far more than the trad areas whilst picking up record numbers of votes.
> 
> Please, stop telling yourself and othersthis nonsense. Do you really think holding stupid rallies is the true measure of poltical importance? In 2008? Even Griffin is in advance of you then. Do grow up.



What are you on about? I thought I would add something to the one-liner you threw out and painted a picture of what kind of activity the BNP's fore-runners got up to back then with 17,000 members. Two years is a long time in politics, particularly of the nasty kind.

How this is indicative of me telling myself that holding rallies is a measure of political importance today escapes me?


----------



## PaulOK (Apr 22, 2008)

JimPage said:


> Not true. At the 1977 GLC Elections before the formation of the ANL- the BNP were polling huge votes in individual parliamentary constituencies including some over 10% in Hackney, Tower Hamlets, Haringey and Newham. They were defeated within a year. The policy of the ANL Mark 1, Propoganda, Violence and Rock against Racism worked then, and with a few adjustments could work again



Disagree - It would be a disaster to copy the tactics of the 70's - Everything has "Changed Utterly". The 90's ANL (Mark 2 if you like) copied the tactics of 30 years ago, down to the same badges and slogans, and was a failure. It was effectively wound up and the SWP entered the UAF.

The BNP today has far more potential for real growth than the old NF which was hamstrung by blatantly fascist policies (as opposed to disguised ones), a strong Right wing alternative pole of attraction in the Tory Party, a still strong Trades Union and Labour movement which commanded support from large numbers of workers. Now, none of this exists. The old National Front enjoyed success for three brief years at the tale end of the Callaghan government, although it should be noted they never won so much as a Council seat (although a splinter did win two in Blackburn). From then on it was very much in decline. The BNP has been strengthening for the last decade and their ideas seem to be be gaining acceptance in large swaths of the population. I fear that we will reach a situation like that which exists in France and Italy, a fascist political force with a large core support impervious to opposition.


----------



## poster342002 (Apr 23, 2008)

PaulOK said:


> they much prefer reaching people in the thinning band of highly Unionised workplaces



With heavy bias towards unions like Unison, NUT and PCS.


----------



## JimPage (Apr 23, 2008)

MC5 said:


> At it's height the NF had about 20,000 members. The BNP have about 7,000.
> 
> The NF had regular meetings, marches and street sales of NF news. NF was scrawled on walls in every part of the city I was at the time. There were certain pubs and areas you avoided. Political meetings and events were attacked on regular occasions. That included Labour party meetings as well as the Communist Party and SWP. Bookshops too.



You are right about numbers, but the modern BNP deploys it members in a radically differrent way than the NF, making them more effective. The nearest the NF got to getting elected was missing out in a Leicester in 1976 by about 60 votes in a ward. 

They are also faced with, in some areas, a clueless antifascist opposition, which you could not say of the SWP in 1977- who devised the right tactics at the right time.


----------



## JimPage (Apr 23, 2008)

One wee rant about London antifascists.  Last Saturday there were 3 pre- advertised fascist activities in London, the location for which was known beforehand for each, a National Front march in Eltham, a British Peoples Party meeting in Central London and a BNP Mass leafletting drive in Bromley. The first two received militant antifascist opposition, the third was ignored. Why?


----------



## d.a.s.h (Apr 23, 2008)

PaulOK said:


> I fear that we will reach a situation like that which exists in France and Italy, a fascist political force with a large core support impervious to opposition.



If so, it should be seen as part of the legacy of New Labour.


----------



## Reese (Apr 23, 2008)

JimPage said:


> One wee rant about London antifascists.  Last Saturday there were 3 pre- advertised fascist activities in London, the location for which was known beforehand for each, a National Front march in Eltham, a British Peoples Party meeting in Central London and a BNP Mass leafletting drive in Bromley. The first two received militant antifascist opposition, the third was ignored. Why?



Presuambly because the so-called militant antifascists wouldn't have out numbered the fash about 10 to one!!!


----------



## The Black Hand (Apr 23, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> They had 17 000 menbers for two years tops. And no elected reps. The BNP has around 0o, has consolidated a 5000 plus membership and has extended it's reach to far more than the trad areas whilst picking up record numbers of votes.



TBH I feel the BNP is where the NF _should have_ been. I am not so sure at all about the support outside of traditional areas argument either. 

Where? Given that Griffins dad was a TOry and a fascist there cannot be many places you can name... but what geographical area are you on about? Or do you mean social groups? DO tell.


----------



## JimPage (Apr 24, 2008)

BNP website just reports that first 4 big BNP billboards have just gone up in London 

Just to remind everyone that Vandalism of these is absolutely, definately, completely, absolutely against the Law


----------



## The Black Hand (Apr 24, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Nah, i meant the NF had no roots and so could be blown away. The BNP have roots and can't. The battles of the next decade have been set.



I think this is an innacurate big brush you are using to gloss over the issue. In terms of numbers and effect, organisations come and go, but their cultural legacy is unmistakeable. NF was scrawled everywhere, and it was in the consciousness of a wave of 'lay racists', and still is, it is partly responsible for the current level of BNP vote. The difference is that the BNp have a p[olitical machine that can reproduce itself, but even here, it could still experience further divisions/splits and suffer downturns. It is not as straight forward as you want to make it appear. Certainly the overblown hyperbole sentence you ended with is ridiculous.


----------



## The Black Hand (Apr 24, 2008)

JimPage said:


> BNP website just reports that first 4 big BNP billboards have just gone up in London
> 
> Just to remind everyone that Vandalism of these is absolutely, definately, completely, absolutely against the Law



JIM - You are right it would be a totally criminal thing to do. Just imagine somebody getting some cheap  emulsion paint and throwing it all over their billboard, or with some simple word changes like adding 'DON'T' to 'Vote BNP'. All the potential 'Banksy's' will be plotting something I can tell.


----------



## Dan U (Apr 24, 2008)

where are they then

site doesn't seem to say


----------



## where to (Apr 24, 2008)

they're probably counting on them being defaced in a counter productive way.


----------



## The Black Hand (Apr 25, 2008)

where to said:


> they're probably counting on them being defaced in a counter productive way.



No. Obliterate them.


----------



## JimPage (Apr 25, 2008)

Last by election before May polls, in a solid Liberal Democrat ward - the sort of ward the BNP usually find it hard going. First time outing for them in this ward. A second place that will their morale no harm at all

Hinckley Castle Ward, Hinckley BC

Lib Dem 802
BNP      264 (18.8%)
Tories   226
Labour  116

Turnout 29.6%


----------



## PaulOK (Apr 25, 2008)

where to said:


> they're probably counting on them being defaced in a counter productive way.




Where are they?

I have my Banksy-style "Racism is the opiate of the Masses" stencil all prepared!


----------



## JimPage (Apr 25, 2008)

One more significant development in London, the English Democrat candidate Matt O`Connor has withdrawn from the Mayoral Race this morning. The EDs polled under 1% in the 2004 Euro Elections in London, but this cannot but lose them votes, and some of the perhaps 20,000 votes they could hope to poll are now up for grab by other parties to the right of the Tories- maybe BNP - maybe UKIP


----------



## JimPage (Apr 25, 2008)

To look out for in London on Monday Bruno Gollnisch, the Deputy leader of France’s Front National and Andreas Mölzer a Euro MP for the Austrian Freedom Party, over to boost the BNP London Campaign


----------



## d.a.s.h (Apr 25, 2008)

JimPage said:


> One more significant development in London, the English Democrat candidate Matt O`Connor has withdrawn from the Mayoral Race this morning.



What do you expect from someone who looks an experiment to hybridize George Michael circa 'Wild Boys' with DJ Dr Fox? Thought it was going to be Bushell's grinning mug heading their mayoral campaign anyway.


----------



## The Black Hand (Apr 25, 2008)

JimPage said:


> Last by election before May polls, in a solid Liberal Democrat ward - the sort of ward the BNP usually find it hard going. First time outing for them in this ward. A second place that will their morale no harm at all
> 
> Hinckley Castle Ward, Hinckley BC
> 
> ...



We'll see when the effect of the 'new' wears off.


----------



## JimPage (Apr 25, 2008)

d.a.s.h said:


> What do you expect from someone who looks an experiment to hybridize George Michael circa 'Wild Boys' with DJ Dr Fox? Thought it was going to be Bushell's grinning mug heading their mayoral campaign anyway.



The official ED response to his sacking is well within the are of Libel against him.

One or two EDs in blogland suggesting he was a plant in the EDs all along.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Apr 25, 2008)

Q: What do you call a fly buzzing inside a bnp member's head?

A: A Space Invader.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 27, 2008)

Anti-fascism today?

BNP boss Richard Barnbrook cheats on Brit with IMMIGRANT - Racist ranter tutu times ballerina


----------



## The Black Hand (Apr 27, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Anti-fascism today?
> 
> BNP boss Richard Barnbrook cheats on Brit with IMMIGRANT - Racist ranter tutu times ballerina



the 2 faced twat deserved exposing


----------



## audiotech (Apr 27, 2008)

Attica said:


> the 2 faced twat deserved exposing



See thread in general.


----------



## The Black Hand (Apr 27, 2008)

MC5 said:


> See thread in general.



OK.


----------



## JimPage (Apr 28, 2008)

Big blow for BNP in London- the 100,000 turnout at Victoria Park on Saturday. This dwarfed the turnouts of even the ANL Events of the 70s. I just cant see them getting anywhere in London in the face of this level of opposition


----------



## d.a.s.h (Apr 28, 2008)

JimPage said:


> Big blow for BNP in London- the 100,000 turnout at Victoria Park on Saturday. This dwarfed the turnouts of even the ANL Events of the 70s. I just cant see them getting anywhere in London in the face of this level of opposition



The number of people in a park has no relevance to people's willingness and ability to put an 'X' next to a name on a ballot paper. I predict the BNP will hold onto their existing level of support in the East London/Essex 'ethnic frontier' and may well build further on it.


----------



## KeyboardJockey (Apr 28, 2008)

JimPage said:


> Big blow for BNP in London- the 100,000 turnout at Victoria Park on Saturday. This dwarfed the turnouts of even the ANL Events of the 70s. I just cant see them getting anywhere in London in the face of this level of opposition



This event was preaching to the converted sadly.  It will not convince one bnp voter.  The reasons for their growth especially in the white working classes are not founded in ignorance but anger at the treason they feel that NL has committed against them by failing to right the wrongs of the 1980s.


----------



## TopCat (Apr 28, 2008)

JimPage said:


> Big blow for BNP in London- the 100,000 turnout at Victoria Park on Saturday. This dwarfed the turnouts of even the ANL Events of the 70s. I just cant see them getting anywhere in London in the face of this level of opposition



I predict three assembly seats won by the BNP this week.


----------



## KeyboardJockey (Apr 28, 2008)

TopCat said:


> I predict three assembly seats won by the BNP this week.



Fuck your pessimistic.  I thought I was the chief Eeyore round here when it comes to the fash.  Even I only predicted one definite and one possible.


----------



## JHE (Apr 28, 2008)

TopCat said:


> I predict three assembly seats won by the BNP this week.



I have seen no poll that supports the idea that they'll get three GLA seats.  Do you think the polls underestimate the BNP vote by a lot?

I reckon they may get one seat on the GLA - or, as indicated by the polls, they may narrowly miss getting one, as they did last time.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 28, 2008)

They need 11% (IIRC) for 3 seats. I don;t think that's likely. 1 for sure.


----------



## d.a.s.h (Apr 28, 2008)

One seat: more likely than not.
Two seats: possible but unlikely.
Three seats: highly unlikely.

IMHO. We'll see.


----------



## JimPage (Apr 28, 2008)

KeyboardJockey said:


> This event was preaching to the converted sadly.  It will not convince one bnp voter.  The reasons for their growth especially in the white working classes are not founded in ignorance but anger at the treason they feel that NL has committed against them by failing to right the wrongs of the 1980s.



You miss the point. The reality is the 5% of voters who vote BNP are lost to the class for the time being- in this election there is too much ground to cover to canvass widely to ensure voters don`t vote Nazi. The better tactic is to ensure people vote for any party other than the BNP (but preferably Respect`s Left List) to mobilise the 95% who are not Nazis to turn out in their hundreds of thousands.

There is no excuse for white working class people to vote BNP when they have credible left canddiates to vote for


----------



## KeyboardJockey (Apr 28, 2008)

JimPage said:


> You miss the point. The reality is the 5% of voters who vote BNP are lost to the class for the time being- in this election there is too much ground to cover to canvass widely to ensure voters don`t vote Nazi. The better tactic is to ensure people vote for any party other than the BNP (but preferably Respect`s Left List) to mobilise the 95% who are not Nazis to turn out in their hundreds of thousands.


There is some truth in what you say but I think you are overstating the effect you want it to have.


JimPage said:


> There is no excuse for white working class people to vote BNP when they have credible left canddiates to vote for



Like who?  I hope you are not referring to LeftLost 

Respect/SWP/LeftList have so very little credibility with those who feel alienated from the mainstream political parties.  Respects misguided experiement in communalism led to Respect being regularily referred to by ordinary bods as 'that p**i party'.  Respect lost a valuable chance to be an inclusive forward thinking democratic left party but that wasn't really the intention of the backers was it?

It is an absolute scandal that there isn't a CREDIBLE left alterat ive to vote for.


----------



## e19896 (Apr 28, 2008)

> Militant Anti-fascists turned over the BPP Victoria meeting. According to the BPP report on Stormfront, 'a couple of people got a good kicking, but the most serious injuries were a broken ankle and a comrade who was taken to hospital after being kicked unconcious'. The message is clear: No Platform, No Pasaran!
> 
> The following article has been taken directly from a Stormfront (fascist website/forum) post about the event. It is the BPP's view of the day and this should be taken in consideration when reading the article. Therefore I apologise for the bad grammar. Please remember that the people who post on Stormfront have an extra finger and shrunken cranium:
> 
> ...



Thats how we deal with them:


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 28, 2008)

How does that deal with the BNP?


----------



## audiotech (Apr 28, 2008)

The call to Londoners is 'turn out to keep them out'.


----------



## The Black Hand (Apr 28, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> How does that deal with the BNP?



I think he said this is how we deal with fascists - though please do put me right if i have misinterpreted.


----------



## PaulOK (Apr 28, 2008)

e19896 said:


> Thats how we deal with them:



I'm all for a good ruck but I canot see how this sort of thing can in any way stop fascism in the current climate - most people aren't even aware of the BPP's existence and it has about as much political relevance as a row between two football firms. There was certainly a place for this kind of activity in the 80's and early 90's  - With fascist electorial support at 1% and 2%, direct action frequently hampered the fascist's ability to grow. However for it to be the main focus of anti-fascist work today with BNP support so high is just plain wrong.


----------



## PaulOK (Apr 28, 2008)

JimPage said:


> Big blow for BNP in London- the 100,000 turnout at Victoria Park on Saturday. This dwarfed the turnouts of even the ANL Events of the 70s. I just cant see them getting anywhere in London in the face of this level of opposition



YOU SERIOUS?!


----------



## KeyboardJockey (Apr 28, 2008)

PaulOK said:


> YOU SERIOUS?!



Sadly it seems that that poster is serious.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 28, 2008)

I think that's a massive overreaction from Jim. He backed it up with more reasons in another thread (which i can't find now). We'll see soon enough though...

There are a v important series of local elections as well, ones which are the key to if the local strategy can move beyond temp protests votes.


----------



## The Black Hand (Apr 28, 2008)

KeyboardJockey said:


> This event was preaching to the converted sadly.  It will not convince one bnp voter.  The reasons for their growth especially in the white working classes are not founded in ignorance but anger at the treason they feel that NL has committed against them by failing to right the wrongs of the 1980s.




Give over - that's wishful thinking. It was a good event and you should look at it not as a one off but in the continuing spirit of anti racism and anti fascism. Who do you think will be part of any serious anti racist anti fascist mass movement? You got it - the people in that park will be part of it.


----------



## The Black Hand (Apr 28, 2008)

d.a.s.h said:


> The number of people in a park has no relevance to people's willingness and ability to put an 'X' next to a name on a ballot paper. I predict the BNP will hold onto their existing level of support in the East London/Essex 'ethnic frontier' and may well build further on it.



So that's going nowhere then.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 28, 2008)

Attica said:


> Give over - that's wishful thinking. It was a good event and you should look at it not as a one off but in the continuing spirit of anti racism and anti fascism. Who do you think will be part of any serious anti racist anti fascist mass movement? You got it - the people in that part will be part of it.



What bus did you get down?


----------



## The Black Hand (Apr 28, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> What bus did you get down?



Off what shelf?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 28, 2008)

I was asking what bus you got to the event.


----------



## The Black Hand (Apr 28, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> I was asking what bus you got to the event.



26.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 28, 2008)

Exaxctly the one that goes up your own arse. You didn't go. Yet manage to review the event.


----------



## The Black Hand (Apr 28, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Exaxctly the one that goes up your own arse. You didn't go. Yet manage to review the event.



You do not know what you are talking about butch - go type in the 26 route in London transport website and see it takes you very close to Viccy park.


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## butchersapron (Apr 28, 2008)

Ok, did you go on sunday?


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## The Black Hand (Apr 28, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Ok, did you go on sunday?



Aye.

The below should keep the BNP vote lower than it might have been and show them up for being marginal/extreme...

Date: 28 April 2008 
Source: The Northern Echo 

Football clubs lend their support to keep out BNP
Lauren Pyrah 

TWO of the region's football clubs have joined community leaders to urge people to keep the British National Party (BNP) out of the North-East in this week's local elections. 

Campaigners from North-East Unites Against the BNP say the BNP is run by "hard-line Nazis" who deny the Holocaust happened. 

Two of the region's Premier League clubs, Newcastle United and Sunderland, are urging people to use their vote to keep the BNP out. 

They are joined in the campaign by the Bishop of Durham, actor Ross Kemp, and Sedgefield MP Phil Wilson as well as GPs, members of clergy and grassroots sports leaders. 

Canvassers from the crossparty campaign are distributing leaflets in areas where local elections are taking place. 

The leaflet says: "The British National Party tries to appear moderate and respectable but they are not. 

"The BNP is run by hard-line Nazis who believe the Holocaust, in which millions of innocent people were murdered by Hitler's henchmen in the Second World War, didn't happen." 

The pamphlet, which delivers the "Hope not Hate" message says the BNP is "jam-packed with criminals, terrorists and thugs". 

It also alleges the BNP has met with racist organisations including a US neo-Nazi group, The National Alliance, and the Ku Klux Klan. It accuses the BNP of not respecting women after comments from one of their senior leaders, Nick Eriksen, deemed rape as a "myth". 

And it says the BNP is unpatriotic as the party believes the UK should not have fought Hitler in the Second World War. 

Last night, Labour MP Mr Wilson said he was proud to be part of the cross-party alliance against the BNP. 

"What is excellent about this is it is the whole community standing against the BNP," he said. 

"They have got to be exposed for what they really are. 

"They are racist, they try to con the electorate by offering simple solutions to complicated issues and they talk about immigrants like the Nazis used to talk about Jewish people in the Thirties. The BNP has no place in our community." 

A spokesperson from Newcastle United FC said: "We are very proud of the multi-cultural society in which we live and we have no time for those that discriminate on the basis of race or religion." 

A spokesperson for Sunderland AFC said: "Sunderland AFC deplores any form of racism or anti-social behaviour and believes this has no place in our communities or society as a whole." 

Ken Booth, North-East organiser for the BNP, said the campaign had been organised by "communist bully boys" in the Labour Party. 

"It doesn't sound very democratic. 

That is communist bullyboy tactics. It is all these communists hiding in the Labour Party. 

"The Labour Party are behind it secretly. They are afraid of losing votes to the BNP." 

He said the Bishop of Durham should leave politics alone. 

"The Bishop of Durham needs to go on a Bible refresher course," he added. 

He also denied the BNP was a racist organisation.


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## butchersapron (Apr 28, 2008)

You did go? Fairplay then. Did they make you drink your beer outside?

UAF forever!!


----------



## Joe Reilly (Apr 29, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> How does that deal with the BNP?



Who the fuck are the BBP? Sounds like something Searchlight/Mi5 might set up? 

In any event to focus on them when the BNP are the principal actors is frankly perverse.


----------



## The Black Hand (Apr 29, 2008)

As a matter of interest - does anybody think that whatever the BNP does has an air of pantomime and the unexpected about it? 

That's cos of the air of suspision and contempt they have from the media. 

In other words everything they do, even standing in elections, is a stunt? Thoughts please.


----------



## JimPage (Apr 29, 2008)

Joe Reilly said:


> Who the fuck are the BBP? Sounds like something Searchlight/Mi5 might set up?
> 
> In any event to focus on them when the BNP are the principal actors is frankly perverse.



British Peoples Party- Eddy Morrison and Kev Watmaugh`s latest nutzi sect.


----------



## JimPage (Apr 29, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> I think that's a massive overreaction from Jim. He backed it up with more reasons in another thread (which i can't find now). We'll see soon enough though...



Heres the post elesewhere, as to why i dotn think they will break through in London this time. 

"No- they won`t get in .There is so much going against them. Their campaign has been better than before, but still only covered a small fraction of London wards. 

Going against them is the strength of the opposition to them in London (100,000 at Victoria Park), Demographics are going against them. They are at 1% in the polls. It is unsafe for them to openly campaign accross half of London, any media coverage of them being as joke candidates, and they have had adverts pulled from the papers. 

More than anything else, a very high turnout caused by the antifascist and muslim campaigners, has drilled home to people that a high turnout is the only way to stop the BNP and Boris. The BNP coming out in favour of Boris was the biggest own goal they could have scored.

My prediction, for what its worth, is on a 50% turnout, their vote will be up on 2004 in numbers terms , but in % terms will be slightly over 4%"


----------



## JimPage (Apr 29, 2008)

One thing- have just checked the bookies odd son Betfair as to whether minor parties will get  seat or not. If i read the odds correctly....

BNP are 5-1 ON to get a seat
Respect are 2-1  AGAINST to get a seat 
UKIP are 2-1 ON to get a seat

So i may be hideously wrong


----------



## newbie (Apr 29, 2008)

JimPage said:


> the strength of the opposition to them in London (100,000 at Victoria Park),



I'm afraid I think you've misread what happened.  For a start there were nothing like 100,000 people there, but more to the point, by and large they gave no indication whatsover they were there for political reasons. Read the main thread here- the first couple of hundred posts are entirely about music with zero political content.

The ANL rallies 30 years ago were political events with a focus on music: the thing on sunday was a tired music consumerist show with a few politico's bellowing into microphones and the usual suspects handing out leaflets to people who weren't even remotely interested.


----------



## JTG (Apr 29, 2008)

newbie said:


> I'm afraid I think you've misread what happened.  For a start there were nothing like 100,000 people there, but more to the point, by and large they gave no indication whatsover they were there for political reasons. Read the main thread here- the first couple of hundred posts are entirely about music with zero political content.
> 
> The ANL rallies 30 years ago were political events with a focus on music: the thing on sunday was a tired music consumerist show with a few politico's bellowing into microphones and the usual suspects handing out leaflets to people who weren't even remotely interested.



what's more, many of those politicos had traveled from places a long way from London to be there.


----------



## JTG (Apr 29, 2008)

Just a quick one - saw a statement on the fashwatch site about how fashwatch has been suspended (no date on it at all so dunno how long it's been up there for) 'cos BNP activity is considerably down for these elections compared to others. Reason given is infighting. Is this correct?

Imagine they're talking about across the country as a whole rather than just London.


----------



## JimPage (Apr 30, 2008)

JTG said:


> Just a quick one - saw a statement on the fashwatch site about how fashwatch has been suspended (no date on it at all so dunno how long it's been up there for) 'cos BNP activity is considerably down for these elections compared to others. Reason given is infighting. Is this correct?
> 
> Imagine they're talking about across the country as a whole rather than just London.



Total bull, and I would expect better of Antifa. They are fighting their highest % of seats up for grabs ever- well over 600. Their infighting has affected their number of seats in soem areas, btu in most has had little effect. An odd time to throw in the towel


----------



## JimPage (Apr 30, 2008)

JimPage said:


> One thing- have just checked the bookies odd son Betfair as to whether minor parties will get  seat or not. If i read the odds correctly....
> 
> BNP are 5-1 ON to get a seat
> Respect are 2-1  AGAINST to get a seat
> ...



This is not looking good!

Latest Odds
http://www.oddschecker.com/specials...n/london-assembly-elections/bnp-to-win-a-seat

BNP 29-1 ON to win seat
Respect 5-1 Against to win a seat
UKIP 2-1 ON to win seat

It looks liek the betting fraternity know something- probably about postal voting returns on perhaps the Yougov poll in the Standard Tomorrow


----------



## Joe Reilly (Apr 30, 2008)

JimPage said:


> Total bull, and I would expect better of Antifa. They are fighting their highest % of seats up for grabs ever- well over 600. Their infighting has affected their number of seats in soem areas, btu in most has had little effect. An odd time to throw in the towel




Not really. The application of the strategy pursued cannot be applied with any discernible affect outside a small number of wards. Given that they are standing in over 600 confronting them effectively in all is out of the question. And as it is practically impossible to tell which they might do well in (even the BNP struggle in this regard) more precision targetting is not a runner either. 

The fact is despite all the tub-thumping on here and elsewhere 'no platform' hasn't been effective to any real degree for a decade and a half. Until the so-called anti-fascists come to terms with the fact that the BNP  have to be challenged politically their growing occupancy of working class areas will continue to accelerate.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 30, 2008)

JimPage said:


> Total bull, and I would expect better of Antifa. They are fighting their highest % of seats up for grabs ever- well over 600. Their infighting has affected their number of seats in soem areas, btu in most has had little effect. An odd time to throw in the towel



Not antifa.

Thia friday is going to see where people are and how serious they are IMO.


----------



## The39thStep (Apr 30, 2008)

JimPage said:


> This is not looking good!
> 
> Latest Odds
> http://www.oddschecker.com/specials...n/london-assembly-elections/bnp-to-win-a-seat
> ...



betfair isn't always a good reader of the market tbh


----------



## durruti02 (May 1, 2008)

both so called militant anti fascism ( antifa) and the ANL mark 2 strategy seem to have completly missed out on understanding euro fascism of which the BNP is a varient  .. this fascism does not march on the streets or provocate .. it organises quietly in middle and working class communities and nowadays by email and internet .. to oppose this by militant anti fascism and festivals of predominantly middle class kids ( as vivky park was) simply does not work .. .. 

tbh you would think that antifa people would note what ex RA/AFA people say ..


----------



## durruti02 (May 1, 2008)

e19896 said:


> Thats how we deal with them:


  yeah right .. wtf are the BPP? .. and what relevence has this to stopping the bnp???


----------



## durruti02 (May 1, 2008)

btw rome now has a fascist mayor  

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/apr/30/italy


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## treelover (May 1, 2008)

yes, this is by the ex marxist, proto blairite, martin jaques, so should be approached with caution, but words do speak for themselves.Certainly, Euro-fascism is on the rise




> This was demonstrated by the manner in which the supporters of Gianni Alemanno, the new mayor of Rome, a man steeled in the fascist tradition, celebrated his victory in the Campidoglio with fascist salutes and cries of "Duce, Duce!", just as Mussolini was once acclaimed by his adherents. Or the way in which Berlusconi felt able to declare, in response to the victory, that "we are the new Falange" - the name given to the fascist party in Spain in the 1930s. Or the fact that Umberto Bossi, at the first session of parliament, threatened violence if the centre-left did not acquiesce in its plans for federalism. "I don't know what the left wants [but] we are ready," he told reporters. "If they want conflicts, I have 300,000 men always on hand."
> 
> http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/martin_jacques/2008/04/rise_of_the_right.html


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## The Black Hand (May 1, 2008)

durruti02 said:


> both so called militant anti fascism ( antifa) and the ANL mark 2 strategy seem to have completly missed out on understanding euro fascism of which the BNP is a varient  .. this fascism does not march on the streets or provocate .. it organises quietly in middle and working class communities and nowadays by email and internet .. to oppose this by militant anti fascism and festivals of predominantly middle class kids ( as vivky park was) simply does not work .. ..
> 
> tbh you would think that antifa people would note what ex RA/AFA people say ..



Who cares what Red Action say - O'sheash talks bollox

It's a strange view which orientates politics cos of what the fash do. There are many other and better starting points for our politics than that, for example - class struggles.

raw ssalc said;

The level of street violence against the left, anarchists, immigrants is increasing. There are no -go areas in Rome for opponents to fascists. Two days a go a squad of skinheads severely attacked some democratic Party activists whilst they were flyposting. The offices of the radical left party sinistra arcobeleno (disobedientti types) was firebombed in Naples last week. Social centres were also attacked, people beaten in the street who looked alternative, chineses migrants stabbed.

Don't underestimate the effect these elections are having on Italy. The new fascist mayor of rome plans to continue from the outgoing walter veltronis stance on Roma Gypsies by evicting the ALL out of Rome. Basically they will organise a pogrom in the next months against these people.

The communists have organised an emmergency meeting, where around 200 representatives turned up in Rome. What they propose? The same old lefty bollocks. The Autonomists are organising a nation-wide movement meeting this Sunday to discuss the situation. Lets see what they plan in response.

On a last note, when Forza Nuova Fascists opened up an office in Padova (aut op heartland) in 2006 - a cladestine cell of the autonomists planted a bomb in it and blew it up


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## LLETSA (May 1, 2008)

Attica said:


> Who cares what Red Action say - O'sheash talks bollox
> 
> It's a strange view which orientates politics cos of what the fash do. There are many other and better starting points for our politics than that, for example - class struggles.
> 
> ...





They get everywhere them autonomists.


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## soulman (May 1, 2008)

matb is dead...


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## LLETSA (May 1, 2008)

soulman said:


> matb is dead...





See-here's another one.


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## treelover (May 2, 2008)

Cobs, cobs, everywhere I see cobs


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## durruti02 (May 2, 2008)

Attica said:


> Who cares what Red Action say - O'sheash talks bollox
> 
> It's a strange view which orientates politics cos of what the fash do. There are many other and better starting points for our politics than that, for example - class struggles.



it is unbelieveably ( maybe not) nieve of attica to dismiss those who ran militant anti-fascism from the early 8ts to the mid 9ts ... and your second comment is equally off mark


----------



## Nigel (May 2, 2008)

e19896 said:


> Thats how we deal with them:



Good day out then?


----------



## The Black Hand (May 2, 2008)

durruti02 said:


> it is unbelieveably ( maybe not) nieve of attica to dismiss those who ran militant anti-fascism from the early 8ts to the mid 9ts ... and your second comment is equally off mark



That's b'cos they bashed the fash when they were out in the open (on a plate) and it didn't matter. The BNP were never gonna get power then cos the authoritarian right already had it. 

Why then, do they abandon direct action JUST WHEN IT IT IS NEEDED in the new conditions with a Labour govt? When direct action is actually that little bit harder to do.

It does not make sense.


----------



## JimPage (May 3, 2008)

As you will know, Barnbrook elected to GLA on 5.3% vote

Disaster for antifascism and time to totally re-appraise tactics from the bottom up. We, the so called antifascist "experts" mucked up big time. We said- " this is how to stop the BNP"- and what we suggested did not work. 
No Platform did not work
Raising turnout did not work
Banning them from Advertising did not work
Pinning the Nazi Label on them did not work
Exposing their convictions did not work
A Rock against Racism carnival did not work

I personally apologise for reading the GLA Election so very wrong,and disparaging those who cleqarly were closer to the ground for getting it right as to the mood in London.   

It is time for other antifascists to apologise to the wider political community we purport to serve.  Absolutely no sign of this from the space cadets at Searchlight and Lancaster UAF, who are posting almost cheery, upbeat statements, and cherry picking bad BNP results, using dodgy stats, to prove a non existant BNP Decline. 

Time for sober, quet, contemplation. And Nick Knowles and Gerry Gables to find another job


----------



## durruti02 (May 3, 2008)

JimPage said:


> As you will know, Barnbrook elected to GLA on 5.3% vote
> 
> Disaster for antifascism and time to totally re-appraise tactics from the bottom up. We, the so called antifascist "experts" mucked up big time. We said- " this is how to stop the BNP"- and what we suggested did not work.
> No Platform did not work
> ...



it is good you have the charecter to say this 

bu there are positives .. millions did not vote at all let alone for the bnp .. and where good local campaigns were run they seem to have soem affect .. but fundamentally yes we need a re good reappraisel of what we do .. AS GRIFFIN DID .. politics must must must go back to the base ..imho only this will have any affcet on the bnp and wider politics


----------



## durruti02 (May 3, 2008)

Attica said:


> That's b'cos they bashed the fash when they were out in the open (on a plate) and it didn't matter. The BNP were never gonna get power then cos the authoritarian right already had it.
> 
> Why then, do they abandon direct action JUST WHEN IT IT IS NEEDED in the new conditions with a Labour govt? When direct action is actually that little bit harder to do.
> 
> It does not make sense.



sorry but you have entirely missed the point of why RA gave up anti fascism .. you clearly do not understand euro fascism and the change in tactics that led so such big votes in france austria etc and has led to the election of fascists in italy and no to the BNPs tactics here .. while you show such total ignorence of what uk fascism is in 2008 it is no wonder you have no idea how it can be stopped and balther about turing over tables in barnsley .. and ignoring how well the fasc then did in the election .. it is sad that you are not have the humility that jimpage has shown .. we desperatley need a bit of that


----------



## JimPage (May 3, 2008)

http://challengeforleadership.blogspot.com/

BNP Leadership Challenge issued today against Griffin by Coin Auty, Kirklees Councillor


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## durruti02 (May 3, 2008)

JimPage said:


> http://challengeforleadership.blogspot.com/
> 
> BNP Leadership Challenge issued today against Griffin by Coin Auty, Kirklees Councillor


 is this the same thing as before that led to the expulsions?


----------



## butchersapron (May 3, 2008)

They'll need another 95 sigs of members in good standing to even be able to make the challenge. He'll have no chance as things are, even if he gets the required sigs. And if his teams tactical acumen consists of tricks like announcing this the day after they pick up a GLA seat then i don't think NG really has anything to worry about.


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## JimPage (May 3, 2008)

durruti02 said:


> it is good you have the charecter to say this



Cheers, it is a day to be introspective and self critical I think. I hope the left as a whole thinks the same, that old tactics, based on this result, will not work any more. I dont know the solution any more, but feel that the leadership of most of the antifascist organisations need to fall on their swords as part of the solution. They misjudged , extremely badly, how to stop the BNP in London, and I for one went along with them, arrogantly slagging off fellow antifascists who diagreed with me.


----------



## The Black Hand (May 3, 2008)

durruti02 said:


> sorry but you have entirely missed the point of why *RA gave up anti fascism *.. you clearly do not understand euro fascism and the change in tactics that led so such big votes in france austria etc and has led to the election of fascists in italy and no to the BNPs tactics here .. while you show such total ignorence of what uk fascism is in 2008 it is no wonder you have no idea how it can be stopped and balther about turing over tables in barnsley .. and ignoring how well the fasc then did in the election .. it is sad that you are not have the humility that jimpage has shown .. we desperatley need a bit of that



Don't talk BULL crap. Look I do know and I've read O'Haras analysis too, though not his entire PHD. I do not accept that they are theoretically correct. You are laughable when you say I do not know what UK fascism is, that's just RUBBISH. 

I haven't blathered on at all - that's just chit chat about Barnsley, not a developed political position. 

See Mayday issue 1 for that, and Mayday issue 2 will have several articles about Fascism 2008 (more than anybody else with perhaps the exception of Borderland) and that includes you cos you do not write for any magazines as far as I know. 

You are ignoring their %% drop in the vote, it is going down year on year - it dropped last year and it has again. You need to read MAYDAY issue 2 for the analysis. RED ACTION/IWCA cannot and do not explain this drop, and MAYDAY will be the first mag to do so.


----------



## Joe Reilly (May 3, 2008)

durruti02 said:


> sorry but you have entirely missed the point of why RA gave up anti fascism .. you clearly do not understand euro fascism and the change in tactics that led so such big votes in france austria etc and has led to the election of fascists in italy and no to the BNPs tactics here .. while you show such total ignorence of what uk fascism is in 2008 it is no wonder you have no idea how it can be stopped and balther about turing over tables in barnsley .. and ignoring how well the fasc then did in the election .. it is sad that you are not have the humility that jimpage has shown .. we desperatley need a bit of that



Attica has from the beginning shown all the consistent inconsistency of a fifth rate fifth columnist. 

That he isn't, dosen't in my opinion, make his contributions any more worthy of time or consideration.


----------



## The Black Hand (May 3, 2008)

Joe Reilly said:


> Attica has from the beginning shown all the consistent inconsistency of a fifth rate fifth columnist.
> 
> That he isn't, dosen't in my opinion, make his contributions any more worthy of time or consideration.



You have always been a wanker -fuck off. You just haven't got the intellectual ability to write anything.


----------



## The Black Hand (May 3, 2008)

Joe Reilly said:


> Attica has from the beginning shown all the consistent inconsistency of a fifth rate fifth columnist.
> 
> That he isn't, dosen't in my opinion, make his contributions any more worthy of time or consideration.



have you read MAYDAY issue 1 yet Joe? It's time to put the old guard to bed or to the sword as Jim Page said


----------



## treelover (May 3, 2008)

Blimey, a mea culpa, not often you see such humility on the left, Attica next?


maybe even Galloway or German, 


Nah.....


----------



## The Black Hand (May 3, 2008)

treelover said:


> Blimey, a mea culpa, not often you see such humility on the left, Attica next?
> 
> 
> maybe even Galloway or German,
> ...



This election confirms my analysis Hardly likely to give up am I. 

IWCA are in far far more trouble - go ask them.


----------



## Joe Reilly (May 3, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> And if his teams tactical acumen consists of tricks like announcing this the day after they pick up a GLA seat then i don't think NG really has anything to worry about.



It's almost if the challenge was predicated on the BNP not achieving that particualar target, prompting another round of 'BNP in Crisis!' headlines but went ahead possibly by default anyway.


----------



## The Black Hand (May 3, 2008)

Just a point - the BNP did NOT run a full slate in SUNDERLAND this year.


----------



## The Black Hand (May 3, 2008)

A ward in Sunderland - Redhill, saw 2 groups of nazis opposing each other in 2007;
BNP 585 votes
N9S - British First Party 78 

In 2008, just the BNP;
BNP 517 votes.

SO - BNP vote down 11.62% in that ward alone!!

Combined fascist vote down by 146!!


----------



## The Black Hand (May 3, 2008)

BUT - st annes ward 2007;

N9S BFP - 257
BNP - 260

St Annes 2008;

BNP 415.

UP 155, and picking up easy votes off a different player, but still less than the combined total the year before for the fascists.


----------



## The Black Hand (May 3, 2008)

Washington East 2007 BNP 195
2008 - 130!!

That's down 65 votes with no other nazis standing,  a 33.3333333% drop in their vote!!


----------



## The Black Hand (May 3, 2008)

Washington North BNP 2007 254
2008 BNP 329.

That's up 75 votes - up 29.5%. Wierd.


----------



## The Black Hand (May 3, 2008)

Washington South - their vote is up 7 this year to 229. Up 3.153% - standing still.


----------



## The Black Hand (May 3, 2008)

Overall Sunderland BNP vote DOWN by 231 votes - down 3.09%. Year on year decline for the BNP here


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## d.a.s.h (May 3, 2008)

Not having a go Attica but in post 1440 you write: "Up 3.153% - standing still" and in the next post you write "down 3.09%. Year on year decline for the BNP here". So when the vote goes up by a small amount, it's 'standing still', but when it goes down by an equally small amount, it's evidence of decline. You see the inconsistency?


----------



## The Black Hand (May 3, 2008)

d.a.s.h said:


> Not having a go Attica but in post 1440 you write: "Up 3.153% - standing still" and in the next post you write "down 3.09%. Year on year decline for the BNP here". So when the vote goes up by a small amount, it's 'standing still', but when it goes down by an equally small amount, it's evidence of decline. You see the inconsistency?



There is a difference between numbers in an individual ward and a total vote. Yes, there is apparent inconsistency, but the down vote is year on year decline - so if you add previous decline into it, it is magnified. You see now?


----------



## audiotech (May 3, 2008)

The BNP have still the one councillor and no gains where I am. Their vote remained static.


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## The Black Hand (May 3, 2008)

treelover said:


> Blimey, a mea culpa, not often you see such humility on the left, Attica next?
> 
> maybe even Galloway or German,
> 
> Nah.....



JIms analysis has been said for some time, it is obvious Liberal left anti fascism, and I include SWP in this, is not working. Combine this with ultra left failure (IWCA loss 2 seats) leaves a big crisis in anti fascism with the existing accepted players shot.

So that leaves the way open for MAYDAY magazine to lead the way issue 2 out soon with the best analysis of what is going on. It theorises combined and uneven development perspectives which are necessary for serious radical thought today, now that teleology is clearly dead for what passes as current anti fascism (usual suspect positions).


----------



## JHE (May 4, 2008)

*Praxis makes perfect gibberish*



Attica said:


> JIms analysis has been said for some time, it is obvious Liberal left anti fascism, and I include SWP in this, is not working. Combine this with ultra left failure (IWCA loss 2 seats) leaves a big crisis in anti fascism with the existing accepted players shot.
> 
> So that leaves the way open for MAYDAY magazine to lead the way issue 2 out soon with the best analysis of what is going on. It theorises combined and uneven development perspectives which are necessary for serious radical thought today, now that teleology is clearly dead for what passes as current anti fascism (usual suspect positions).



Brilliant!

I will be disappointed, though, if there are no articles dealing with foxes, parking meters, smuggled fags and the experience of the Anarchist International Brigade's armed solidarity with Hezbollah.


----------



## durruti02 (May 4, 2008)

Attica said:


> Don't talk BULL crap. Look I do know and I've read O'Haras analysis too, though not his entire PHD. I do not accept that they are theoretically correct. You are laughable when you say I do not know what UK fascism is, that's just RUBBISH.
> 
> I haven't blathered on at all - that's just chit chat about Barnsley, not a developed political position.
> 
> ...



no sorry i repeat .. you do NOT understand uk fascism in 2008 .. if you did you would not make the incredibly out of touch and nieve comments you regularly make whihc appear to be based on personal antagonism instead of political analysis of real forces .. 


- the bnp now have 100 councillors .. when has the far right had anything like this??

- their vote has again gone up .. yes???

- the % going down is, as has been said on MANY an occasion,  simply a reflection of them standing in more areas .. it is NOTHING to crow about .. 

- they have though been squeezed - one by the tories ( as in 79) and 2 ( jim page please note ) to an extent by the large scale ( daily mirror, gaunt, littlejohn etc etc etc) campaign against them ( doesn't make people less angry and disillusioned but may put them off actually voting bnp for now while they remain small)

- and you continually confuse the idea they will take power ( which NO ONE is suggesting with the damage they do in w/c areas and in our attempt to recreate w/c power ) 


but if you had bothered to read wingfields article you would have seen they had already factored this and will be very very happy with their progress 

h t t p://w w w.b n p.org.uk/2008/05/01/the-bnps-quiet-revolution-has-been-built-on-firm-foundations/

"Today, people will be voting on a range of political issues that directly affect them. Whether they will be voting for the BNP will solely depend on whether we have got our message across to them through our activists on the doorstep. Every single media outlet, without exception, has ceaselessly promoted the anti-BNP campaign. The column inches in the newspapers attacking the BNP over the past couple of weeks probably runs into miles! So any success that we might achieve in these elections will only come from the hard work of our activists and the leaflets, broadcasts and Internet coverage that has been produced and generated by the Party itself.

For the British National Party these local elections have already been a stunning success. Over one thousand new members since the start of the campaign and before a single vote has even been counted. Enquiries have come from thousands more seeking to join and help the BNP, and a dozen new councillors have already been elected unopposed, albeit at town and parish level. All this is another small but sure-footed step along the path to more political influence.

When the results come through tonight and tomorrow, this is what our members and everyone who supports and votes for the British National Party must have in their minds. We have already won, we don’t need to wait for the media or the establishment’s political pundits to tell us what we have achieved. Our Quiet Revolution is ongoing and it is built on having the right political policies that are being promoted to the public by dedicated teams of BNP campaigners across the country. Our Quiet Revolution is built on firm foundations, not media headlines."


----------



## The Black Hand (May 4, 2008)

durruti02 said:


> no sorry i repeat .. you do NOT understand uk fascism in 2008 .. if you did you would not make the incredibly out of touch and nieve comments you regularly make whihc appear to be based on personal antagonism instead of political analysis of real forces ..
> 
> 
> A) - the bnp now have 100 councillors .. when has the far right had anything like this??
> ...



You make typical old leftist know it all statements repeatedly, and cannot recognise a new perspective if it bit your bum. There is personal antagonism but they are as guilty as I - it takes 2 to Tango remember, how many times do I have to point this out I do not know. You/they are in denial of responsibility for their role in politics as 'old left sectarian bitch fighting'.

A) That is meaningless, 100 seats out of 20k is fuck all. AS I have said before this struggle is just beginning... It has been totally marginal for the past 15 years plus but now it is getting too important to be ignored, which still doesn't mean it affects everybody or everybodies struggles yet.

B) Their vote is going down overall, up in some areas down in others, quite wildly in some places as my examples on this thread show.

C) I think crowing about BNP failure is vital, otherwise you join in with fascist analysis.

D) Of course - that's why they despise Littlejohn so much and why UKIP have done ok.

E) No.

F) Fuck 'em. Lets gloat about the areas where they have done badly and disillusion them I play no part in giving potentially disillusioned BNP activists solace and comfort.


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## The Black Hand (May 4, 2008)

JHE said:


> Brilliant!
> 
> I will be disappointed, though, if there are no articles dealing with foxes, parking meters, smuggled fags and the experience of the Anarchist International Brigade's armed solidarity with Hezbollah.



CHange the CD JHE.


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## The Black Hand (May 4, 2008)

Incidentally I've just been on Libcrap/limpcok/libcom and have looked on their forums, including News/theory/organise and there is no discussion of the election results. 

POLL - A) Wierd B) Wankers C) What do you expect from ultra leftists?


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## The Black Hand (May 4, 2008)

Here's link to article & link to the AF editorial from their 2 yearly magazine - a very poor editorial if you ask me http://libcom.org/forums/announcements/af-magazine-organise-70-out-23042008

There's nothing practical in that, just an awful lot of well meaning nothingness - 'shoulders to the wheel, let's be virtuous in bad conditions'. Not enough by far for me...


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## butchersapron (May 4, 2008)

JimPage said:


> Cheers, it is a day to be introspective and self critical I think. I hope the left as a whole thinks the same, that old tactics, based on this result, will not work any more. I dont know the solution any more, but feel that the leadership of most of the antifascist organisations need to fall on their swords as part of the solution. They misjudged , extremely badly, how to stop the BNP in London, and I for one went along with them, arrogantly slagging off fellow antifascists who diagreed with me.



Have to say, i don't recall you slagging anyone off for disgareeing with you Jim, just forcefully disagreeing.


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## TremulousTetra (May 4, 2008)

Durrito, My problem is my experience in my area.

The BNP stood.  They have done nothing in the area previous to the election,in fact the candidate and most of the leafleter's were parachuted in.  As far as I know, they didn't go knocking on doors, they just tried to put through a leaflet.  By contrast the respect renewal campaign has been running for several years in a neighbouring area.  They have had a constant several year presence on the streets over various issues.  And very good white female candidate.  She came in third with a creditable 502 votes (the white male Labour Party candidate 1475).  The BNP merchant came in second with 828 Votes (Labour Party candidate 1328).

In my experience the relationship between the votes has far more to do with the national perspective, rather than the local stuff or the BNP.  In my opinion, from what I have observed in my area, a left candidate has to work 10 or 20 times harder than a fascist for a vote.  Not only that, because the BNP can rely upon a more passive membership, just turning out to leaflet and the odd publicity stunt, the BNP can recruit better.  The respect renewal people find people do respect and admire what they are doing, but are frightened by the level of activity seen as "necessary" to be an active member.


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## durruti02 (May 4, 2008)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> Durrito, My problem is my experience in my area.
> 
> The BNP stood.  They have done nothing in the area previous to the election,in fact the candidate and most of the leafleter's were parachuted in.  As far as I know, they didn't go knocking on doors, they just tried to put through a leaflet.  By contrast the respect renewal campaign has been running for several years in a neighbouring area.  They have had a constant several year presence on the streets over various issues.  And very good white female candidate.  She came in third with a creditable 502 votes (the white male Labour Party candidate 1475).  The BNP merchant came in second with 828 Votes (Labour Party candidate 1328).
> 
> In my experience the relationship between the votes has far more to do with the national perspective, rather than the local stuff or the BNP.  In my opinion, from what I have observed in my area, a left candidate has to work 10 or 20 times harder than a fascist for a vote.  Not only that, because the BNP can rely upon a more passive membership, just turning out to leaflet and the odd publicity stunt, the BNP can recruit better.  The respect renewal people find people do respect and admire what they are doing, but are frightened by the level of activity seen as "necessary" to be an active member.




hi mate .. hope you good .. yes not good is it .. and what you say shows they have moved up a level .. they now have the national profile that means they do not even need to do the door knocking


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## durruti02 (May 4, 2008)

Attica said:


> You make typical old leftist know it all statements repeatedly, and cannot recognise a new perspective if it bit your bum. There is personal antagonism but they are as guilty as I - it takes 2 to Tango remember, how many times do I have to point this out I do not know. You/they are in denial of responsibility for their role in politics as 'old left sectarian bitch fighting'.
> 
> A) That is meaningless, 100 seats out of 20k is fuck all. AS I have said before this struggle is just beginning... It has been totally marginal for the past 15 years plus but now it is getting too important to be ignored, which still doesn't mean it affects everybody or everybodies struggles yet.
> 
> ...



a) of course 100 in 20000 is very few .. but that again entirely misses the point .. of their trajectory and that they are becoming a default option in many w/c communities 

b) their overall vote continues to rise .. to pretend anything differrent is blind in the extreme

c) sorry but thtat is self delusion of the worst kind 

d) but they are still growing 

e) yes you do confuse this ( see above where you refer to them ONLY having 100 councillors ) .. as someone who continuously refers to praxis it is incredible you cannot see it is the progress and motion of the bnp that is important and instead you fixate upon static numbers .. IT IS NOT THE number of seats that is important but the damage being done in w/c areas 

f) that is a legitimate tactic .. but you confuse that with the neccessary discussion on this and other political forums where we must be honest .. 

your preamble yet again shows you are really not allowing yourself to look at this issue outside of your old, maybe right, maybe wrong, prejudices about those you have disagreed with ( p.s. i am not in denial of your concerns about/or RA and on many occasions i have agreed with you about them .. that though is NOT relevent to this arguement and their building of the IWCA) .. it reflects badly on your arguement and does not help the debate


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## audiotech (May 4, 2008)

> Challenge for Leadership
> Councillor Colin Auty is standing as British National Party Leadership Challenger 2008. This leadership campaign will principally be fought on the issues of Reform and Democratisation of the British National Party. Under the rule of the current Chairman, the Party has effectively become a dictatorship.



No suprise there, wonder want Barnbrook thinks to it all?


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## TremulousTetra (May 4, 2008)

durruti02 said:


> hi mate .. hope you good .. yes not good is it .. and what you say shows they have moved up a level .. they now have the national profile that means they do not even need to do the door knocking


I'm not being pedantic, I'm trying to honestly analyse the situation.  You see what I seem to read in the words of yourself and people like Butch, is that the change in the fortunes of the BNP is down to the BNP.  People go on about them doing the local work etc and this is the root of their success.  In my area this patiently isn't true, and not only that the people on the left who have been doing such work have not been as successful as the fascist.  So I'm arguing local work etc is not the cause of the BNP limited success.  Have I misread you and butch, do you agree with that?

Euro fascism.  Undoubtably this is a change in tactics that is slightly contributing to their limited success SO FAR.  I am not being pedantic when I say their limited success is due to them moving down a level, not moving up.  They've had to seriously distance themselves, publicly, from their own history, traditions, to make any headway.  I can't remember where, but some time back Griffin argued fascism was unelectable in Britain.  But far more important than their change in tactics in my opinion, is the change in the objective circumstances.  The mainstream politicians, media, "the war on terror" is acting as a recruiting sergeant for the BNP, not the BNP.  The BNP have just stop doing the things that used to expose them as fascists.

PS. yes thanks, I am well. hope you and yours are.


----------



## TremulousTetra (May 4, 2008)

PS. I am not saying the antifascist haven't got a serious problem dealing with the shift in tactics, and the way they are working presently isn't being as effective as necessary.the big problem  for anti-fascism is recruitment, imo.


----------



## audiotech (May 4, 2008)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> I'm not being pedantic, I'm trying to honestly analyse the situation.  You see what I seem to read in the words of yourself and people like Butch, is that the change in the fortunes of the BNP is down to the BNP.  People go on about them doing the local work etc and this is the root of their success. In my area this patiently isn't true, and not only that the people on the left who have been doing such work have not been as successful as the fascist.  So I'm arguing local work etc is not the cause of the BNP limited success.  Have I misread you and butch, do you agree with that?
> 
> Euro fascism.  Undoubtably this is a change in tactics that is slightly contributing to their limited success SO FAR.  I am not being pedantic when I say their limited success is due to them moving down a level, not moving up.  They've had to seriously distance themselves, publicly, from their own history, traditions, to make any headway.  I can't remember where, but some time back Griffin argued fascism was unelectable in Britain.  But far more important than their change in tactics in my opinion, is the change in the objective circumstances.  The mainstream politicians, media, "the war on terror" is acting as a recruiting sergeant for the BNP, not the BNP.  The BNP have just stop doing the things that used to expose them as fascists.
> 
> PS. yes thanks, I am well. hope you and yours are.



The 'local work' people point to carried out by the BNP is to all intents and purposes crude political stunts to get the BNP name into people's consciousness. This is part of the phased development of the BNP and one that was tried and failed by the NF in the 70's.

Phase two of the development envisages a nationwide structure of groups and the setting up of intensive training programmes to build a cadre organisation of dedicated, trusted and reliable organisers.

Phase three was expected to turn the BNP from a nationwide party organisation into a society in microcosm.

Finally, phase four, which would not be a coup or revolution but rather a "third way" - the paralysing of the state from within by the mass organisation of a movement within the state organism.


----------



## TremulousTetra (May 4, 2008)

MC5 said:


> The 'local work' people point to carried out by the BNP is to all intents and purposes crude political stunts to get the BNP name into people's consciousness. This is part of the phased development of the BNP and one that was tried and failed by the NF in the 70's.


ok


----------



## Divisive Cotton (May 4, 2008)

Attica said:


> A) That is meaningless, 100 seats out of 20k is fuck all. AS I have said before this struggle is just beginning... It has been totally marginal for the past 15 years plus but now it is getting too important to be ignored, which still doesn't mean it affects everybody or everybodies struggles yet.



You people are laughable. When Red Action / IWCA were forewarning the Left that what was happening on continental Europe would happen here too (this was before they even had _one _councillor elected), eveybody on the Left, and I mean _everybody_- anarchist, communist or trotskyist - said that that would never happen here - you were no exception.
Now they have 100 councillors and it becomes "fuck all". The unthinkable becomes "fuck all".
You present yourself as a big man of Left, a theoretical heavyweight. But you know jackshit. Your as divisive as any paymaster would expect.


----------



## Joe Reilly (May 4, 2008)

MC5 said:


> The 'local work' people point to carried out by the BNP is to all intents and purposes crude political stunts to get the BNP name into people's consciousness. This is part of the phased development of the BNP and one that was tried and failed by the NF in the 70's.



This yet more of the type of nonsense trotted out by the ANL in the 1990's. 'we beat them before and we will beat them again'. Within it is the lie that the NF were far stronger and had greater potential then. 'Tried and failed' are the operative words. It is both seductive and reassuring as intended. Rather interestingly the producer of 'The White Season' is a subscriber. In a discussion on Radio 4 he stated that the the 1979 election was the electoral high point for the far right. Utter bunk of course. The hundreds of thousands who ticked BNP in last Thursday's election in London should have put paid to it - but apparently not. If the BNP  are to be beaten back the solutions promoted by UAF/Hoper not Hate and so forth will have to be ditched.


----------



## audiotech (May 4, 2008)

Joe Reilly said:


> This yet more of the type of nonsense trotted out by the ANL in the 1990's. 'we beat them before and we will beat them again'. Within it is the lie that the NF were far stronger and had greater potential then. 'Tried and failed' are the operative words. It is both seductive and reassuring as intended. Rather interestingly the producer of 'The White Season' is a subscriber. In a discussion on Radio 4 he stated that the the 1979 election was the electoral high point for the far right. Utter bunk of course. The hundreds of thousands who ticked BNP in last Thursday's election in London should have put paid to it - but apparently not. If the BNP  are to be beaten back the solutions promoted by UAF/Hoper not Hate and so forth will have to be ditched.




Joe, UAF have calculated 130,174 voted for the BNP in last Thursday's elections in London. Should we ditch these too and go with your hundreds of thousands?


----------



## geoff64 (May 4, 2008)

this is - in part - the text of a leaflet Hackney Independent distributed at a Searchlight/Hackney TUC/UAF meeting in Hackney last month.  (Apologies if this repeats a lot of stuff people have been arguing already.) The strategy it suggests ain't easy - given the state of working-class politics in the UK - but it's criticism of the type of fire-fighting that goes on every four years prior to an election is valid nevertheless:

This meeting tonight represents an old and failed method of combating the BNP.  This ‘bureaucratic’ strategy is one which seeks an alliance of anti-racist and anti-fascist activists with mainstream political parties and institutions which has long been proved counter-productive.

•	The mainstream political parties and their policies are not part of the solution but part of the problem.

It is no surprise at all that all the mainstream political parties in Hackney are supporting this strategy. They all profess a hatred of racism and all, understandably, want to halt the electoral growth of an opposition political party.  However, they share a political consensus that supports policy which encourages support for the BNP in many areas of London and elsewhere in the country – be it overcrowded and poor housing conditions, free market ‘solutions’ to social problems, increasing social inequality, etc.  This is particularly true of the Tories and New Labour, but also true for others like the Liberal Democrats where they control local councils.  In housing, for example, a key campaigning area for the BNP, the policy of Right to Buy, lack of genuinely affordable housing, overcrowding and poor maintenance, has created conditions which make it easier for the BNP to blame immigrants.  Anti-fascists should understand that the fight against the BNP is also a fight against the inequalities and poor conditions faced by many working class families, irrespective of race; and is therefore a fight against the parties and ideologies which pursue the policies damaging to working class families.  Forming anti-BNP alliances with those that create the problems which allow the BNP to grow is a strategy which is justifiably met with contempt by those tempted to vote for them.

•	Labelling the BNP ‘Nazi’ is simplistic and misses the mark.

Recent history should have taught anti-fascists that a campaign of sloganeering against the BNP by calling them ‘Nazi’ or ‘Fascist’ is of no practical use.  It does not deter people from supporting them.  This is because the BNP does not set out to appeal to Nazi sympathies within its constituency.  On the contrary, the BNP – whatever the far-right sympathies of its leadership – has increasingly adopted a form of local, community politics which looks to address the very real problems faced by working class families.  Similarly, the BNP can persuasively argue – in the accepted language of official multiculturalism – that it is legitimately representing the interests of an ethnic group, just as other ethnic groups are represented.  In this manner ‘the establishment’ has gifted the BNP with an opportunity to both increase their public profile and cast themselves as free-speech martyrs. 

The majority of people voting BNP are not hard-core Nazi’s or racists.  Evidence shows that most of their support over the last 15 years comes from disillusioned Labour voters.  These voters are not rabid-right-wingers, nor are they stupid people who need to be ‘educated’ by alliances of the middle-class Left and Right.  They are quite justified in feeling disillusioned with New Labour.  They do not deserve to be lectured down to.  They deserve to be genuinely listened to and their problems taken seriously.  If anti-racists and anti-fascists don’t attempt to bring them into struggles for social justice is it any wonder that some are persuaded to vote for the BNP?

•	The way forward

What is required to combat the electoral growth of the BNP is for anti-fascists and anti-racists to engage consistently in local, community politics in order to, a) address the very legitimate needs and concerns of working class families and, b) provide an alternative to both the BNP and failed mainstream politics.  The ‘bureaucratic’ strategy – building alliances with middle-class parties, moralising against instead of engaging with – is not only useless as an anti-fascist strategy, it has been proven to be counter-productive and boost the BNP’s electoral opportunities through protest voting. 

Hackney Independent was originally one of a number of community politics groups that formed in the late 1990’s following the BNP’s turn to electoral politics.  This criticism of ‘bureaucratic’ strategies to combat the BNP was formed during the campaign against BNP councillor Derek Beacon on the Isle of Dogs in 1993. (It is tragic that those lessons, 15 years on, have still not been learnt.)  We believe that it is only consistent pro-working class community politics that can ultimately neuter the BNP.  Those that offer the BNP electoral support need to be offered an alternative, so that they are able to fight for improvements in the conditions of their lives without being sucked into the arms of racists.

The best possible outcome for this meeting tonight in Hackney, therefore, and other meetings like this throughout London, is that anti-racists and anti-fascists organise themselves to work with working class communities to challenge not just the BNP, but also to challenge the social policies pursued by mainstream political parties which directly contribute to the disillusionment off which the BNP feed.


----------



## butchersapron (May 4, 2008)

MC5 said:


> Joe, UAF have calculated 130,174 voted for the BNP in last Thursday's elections in London. Should we ditch these too and go with your hundreds of thousands?



130714 is the offical London Elects figure for the party list election _alone_.

130 000 2nd prefs for mayor
70 000 1st prefs
130 000 party list votes
18 000 in City and East for assembly


First two together are 200 000 seperate votes - i.e non doubled.


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## Joe Reilly (May 4, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> 130714 is the offical London Elects figure for the party list election _alone_.
> 
> 130 000 2nd prefs for mayor
> 70 000 1st prefs
> ...



_Only_ 80,000 up on the same results in 2004 - a further sign of diminishing support. Naturally.


----------



## The Black Hand (May 4, 2008)

Divisive Cotton said:


> You people are laughable. When Red Action / IWCA were forewarning the Left that what was happening on continental Europe would happen here too (this was before they even had _one _councillor elected), eveybody on the Left, and I mean _everybody_- anarchist, communist or trotskyist - said that that would never happen here - you were no exception.
> Now they have 100 councillors and it becomes "fuck all". The unthinkable becomes "fuck all".
> You present yourself as a big man of Left, a theoretical heavyweight. But you know jackshit. Your as divisive as any paymaster would expect.



That would be funny if it weren't so tragic. 100 fash seats was only unthinkable to those with closed or ideological minds, OBJECTIVELY 100 out of 22K IS FUK ALL. That is LESS THAN HALF OF ONE PERCENT OF THE TOTAL - they are still marginal and irrelevant. GOOD.

Your last paragraph is even worse than your earlier offerings in that post, complete with bad sp/gm, and the illegitamate suggestion that i am causing division. harde har har.


----------



## The Black Hand (May 4, 2008)

durruti02 said:


> a) of course 100 in 20000 is very few .. but that again entirely misses the point .. of their trajectory and that they are becoming a default option in many w/c communities
> 
> b) their overall vote continues to rise .. to pretend anything differrent is blind in the extreme
> 
> ...



A) yes.... 
B) WIll have to check some more stats, but there is a downward drift from what I have seen in the council elections.
C) Agree to disagree.
D) Not entirely true - there are wild differences in areas, and within areas (+ or - over 30%).
E) You view W/C areas as being OK till the BNP moved in - doing the damage. I view most of them as already divided, and in need of more solidarity. So the damage is already done. That is why I do not think the BNP are making our task that much/significantly harder, it is ALREADY difficult.
F) I would prefer our 'honest' discussions to be in areas where fascists cannot read what is going on thanks.

I have a political perspective which IS different to IWCA/RA. My politics are derived from experience of the current social and economic situation, and political experience. Thus, I do not accept RA/IWCA analysis, mine IS different, and I am proud of it. It stands in its own right, and will go on and be used by activists for a generation or more to come. It is a historical position in touch with the times and one that has space for development, other 'anti fascisms' are now totally discredited (IWCA in retreat - official soft left and UAF lost) , whereas *the area of autonomy* perspective is just getting onto the train ready to start its journey(s).


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## Divisive Cotton (May 4, 2008)

Attica said:


> Your last paragraph is even worse than your earlier offerings in that post, *complete with bad sp/gm*, and the illegitamate suggestion that i am causing division. harde har har.



What was that you wrote about bad spelling and grammar? It's nonsensical abbreviations to me.


----------



## mk12 (May 4, 2008)

"illegitamate"


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## The Black Hand (May 4, 2008)

Divisive Cotton said:


> What was that you wrote about bad spelling and grammar? It's nonsensical abbreviations to me.



Get out of your bubble


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## The Black Hand (May 4, 2008)

mk12 said:


> "illegitamate"



He never spotted it tho.


----------



## Divisive Cotton (May 4, 2008)

Attica said:


> He never spotted it tho.



There's obviously much you've "never spotted".


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## The Black Hand (May 4, 2008)

Divisive Cotton said:


> There's obviously much you've "never spotted".



As my last tagline on MATB said - I see everything


----------



## Divisive Cotton (May 4, 2008)

Attica said:


> As my last tagline on MATB said - I see everything



But you don't, do you. Far from it. £.


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## The Black Hand (May 4, 2008)

Divisive Cotton said:


> But you don't, do you. Far from it. £.


 


Au contraire I do I know what leftism, Marxism and political theory are, i know what fascism is, and I have helped to construct the area of autonomy perspective of anti fascism. Different to existing old stylee leftist anti fascisms, but all the better for it. It is a perspective for these new times; open your mind, try it a bit, it may help you swim rather than flap wildly in the water.


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## kidtripod (May 4, 2008)

I have to say I think geoff64 completely nailed it.

The problem for the anti-BNP groups is that the BNP keep being given propaganda tools to work with. Only cutting off the supply by solving the problems they manipulate will have any effect on them whatsoever.

Rather than bickering over minutiae time would be better invested in putting together a cohesive effort on policy, with community projects on the ground for visibility. It's a long term grind, but it's the only possible course.


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## JTG (May 4, 2008)

A lot of that Hackney Independent stuff is spot on. It's so depressing to see people on these boards and the Socialist Worker slogans etc wittering on about 'Nazis' when it's a criticism of the BNP which doesn't really chime with the reasons people cast their votes for them.

tbh, I don't trust any solution which involves the likes of Searchlight (given their highly questionable record of state inspired manipulation) or the TUC (given that their default solution to everything is to vote Labour).


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## The Black Hand (May 4, 2008)

UAF - a bit l8;

"Racists Don’t Represent London - 
Protest Against BNP Fascist on London Assembly

Protest Against BNP fascist Richard Barnbrook’s presence on the London Assembly.

6pm, Tuesday 6th May 2008
City Hall (the GLA building), Queens Walk, London SE1
(nr Tower Bridge - see http://www. london. gov. uk/gla/locationmap. jsp)
Called by Love Music Hate Racism. Bring banners, whistles, horns, music - make some noise against racism and fascism, no Nazis on the GLA"


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## geoff64 (May 5, 2008)

Attica said:


> UAF - a bit l8;
> 
> "Racists Don’t Represent London -
> Protest Against BNP Fascist on London Assembly
> ...




bang on there - A BIT LATE!!? 

i had accused them of fire-fighting - this is just pissing in the wind ( and as we all know when you do that you just get wee-wee all over yr face...)


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## treelover (May 5, 2008)

called by the SWP, in fact, why don't they just fuck off with their front groups and disappear, this will just make Londoners who voted BNP even more hardline and reinforce their increasingly hostile attitudes to the left.




> Called by Love Music Hate Racism. Bring banners, whistles, horns, music - make some noise against racism and fascism, no Nazis on the GLA"


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## JTG (May 5, 2008)

UAF said:
			
		

> Called by Love Music Hate Racism. Bring banners, whistles, horns, music - make some noise against racism and fascism, no Nazis on the GLA



There aren't any Nazis on the GLA, using this emotive word which doesn't accurately describe the BNP is utterly unhelpful.


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## audiotech (May 5, 2008)

JTG said:


> There aren't any Nazis on the GLA, using this emotive word which doesn't accurately describe the BNP is utterly unhelpful.



Barnbrook belongs to a party with a declared sympathiser of Hitler and the ideology of national socialism as it's leader. What could be more clearer?


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## TremulousTetra (May 5, 2008)

a lot of people here sure that the BNP are not fascist, neo-Nazis, so what are they then?


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## Joe Reilly (May 5, 2008)

MC5 said:


> Barnbrook belongs to a party with a declared sympathiser of Hitler and the ideology of national socialism as it's leader. What could be more clearer?



Looks like 'General Attica' isn't the only one determined to disarm prog ressive anti-fascist forces from coming up with a rational political response...to come out with the same old shit given the circumstances is tipping into madness - or worse.


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## JTG (May 5, 2008)

please think about what I've actually said. please.

you're getting nowhere, start talking and listening to people outside of your own circles.


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## audiotech (May 5, 2008)

Joe Reilly said:


> Looks like 'General Attica' isn't the only one determined to disarm prog ressive anti-fascist forces from coming up with a rational political response...to come out with the same old shit given the circumstances is tipping into madness - or worse.



The problem with your comments Joe is that I have never been opposed to a rational political response to fascism.

It's just that some on here seem to be suggesting anti-fascists should play down the BNP's leaderships fascist and nazi sympathies.

Sorry, no can do.


----------



## TremulousTetra (May 5, 2008)

how can I talk to people outside my own circles, I can only talk to people I come across and know.  if you mean socialists etc, I meet and talk to them very rarely.  it is mostly ordinary joe people I speak to.  most of them accept, even some who vote for the BNP, that the BNP are fascist, so I cant understand why you politicals don't believe that the bnp is fascist.


----------



## TremulousTetra (May 5, 2008)

Joe Reilly said:


> Looks like 'General Attica' isn't the only one determined to disarm prog ressive anti-fascist forces from coming up with a rational political response...to come out with the same old shit given the circumstances is tipping into madness - or worse.


not in the slightest.  it is plain to see that UAF, searchlight, etc anti-fascists are struggling to deal with things at the moment.   but I just can't understand why I should be censored from calling the bnp what they are, fascists.


----------



## audiotech (May 5, 2008)

JTG said:


> please think about what I've actually said. please.
> 
> you're getting nowhere, start talking and listening to people outside of your own circles.



What are you on about? I live and work like the rest of the population. I don't have the luxury of living an excluded lifestyle in some commune like the anarchist band Crass ffs.


----------



## Joe Reilly (May 5, 2008)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> how can I talk to people outside my own circles, I can only talk to people I come across and know.  if you mean socialists etc, I meet and talk to them very rarely.  it is mostly ordinary joe people I speak to.  most of them accept, even some who vote for the BNP, that the BNP are fascist, so I cant understand why you politicals don't believe that the bnp is fascist.




Who said 'the BNP were not fascist?. The primary complaint (side-stepping for a moment the sleazy Trot logic/smear) is that they are expanding their operations and you are spunking fucks knows how much money helping them do it.


----------



## Joe Reilly (May 5, 2008)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> not in the slightest.  it is plain to see that UAF, searchlight, etc anti-fascists are struggling to deal with things at the moment.   but I just can't understand why I should be censored from calling the bnp what they are, fascists.



Is that the strategy then for the forseeable future - 'call the BNP fascists'?


----------



## TremulousTetra (May 5, 2008)

MC5 said:


> The problem with your comments Joe is that I have never been opposed to a rational political response to fascism.
> 
> It's just that some on here seem to be suggesting anti-fascists should play down the BNP's leaderships fascist and nazi sympathies.
> 
> Sorry, no can do.


its not just a matter of, no can do,it's illogical surely? virtually every church, political party, trade union, academic opposes the BNP because they are fascist.  now either this is the biggest conspiracy in British political history, or they are indeed fascist. is something walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, then it is a duck, and it is illogical to call it a monkey, horse, pitching, or anything else.


----------



## JTG (May 5, 2008)

nutters


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (May 5, 2008)

Joe Reilly said:


> Is that the strategy then for the forseeable future - 'call the BNP fascists'?




Read BNP policies and propaganda. Philosophically they are to a very 1930s fascist template.


----------



## butchersapron (May 5, 2008)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Read BNP policies and propaganda. Philosophically they are to a very 1930s fascist template.



No they're not - they have the exact opposite of the 30s style state worship and concentrate on de-centralisation, federalism and varieties of local democracy and so on, a modernised pan european neo-fascism with populist and libertarian overtones but with very little of old style 'totalitarianism'. But that's neither here nor there - we're talking about the efficacy as a tactic of calling them facists or nazis given that it doesn't work, and related tactics of 'exposing them' and so on.

edit: btw I spent a good part of last night reading their Rebuilding British Democracy manifesto - the most complete statement of their current thought.


----------



## audiotech (May 5, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> No they're not - they have the exact opposite of the 30s style state worship and concentrate on de-centralisation, federalism and varieties of local democracy and so on, a modernised pan european neo-fascism with populist and libertarian overtones but with very little of old style 'totalitarianism'. But that's neither here nor there - we're talking about the efficacy as a tactic of calling them facists or nazis given that it doesn't work, and related tactics of 'exposing them' and so on.
> 
> edit: btw I spent a good part of last night reading their Rebuilding British Democracy manifesto - the most complete statement of their current thought.



Yeah, but they lie.


----------



## audiotech (May 5, 2008)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> its not just a matter of, no can do,it's illogical surely? virtually every church, political party, trade union, academic opposes the BNP because they are fascist.  now either this is the biggest conspiracy in British political history, or they are indeed fascist. is something walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, then it is a duck, and it is illogical to call it a monkey, horse, pitching, or anything else.



Yep.


----------



## butchersapron (May 5, 2008)

MC5 said:


> Yeah, but they lie.



Are you trying to miss the point on purpose? It doesn't matter if the term is correct or not if no one takes blind bit of notice of you calling them it. No ones saying that the term can't or shouldn't be used in an analytical sense (or at least an argument made for its use).


----------



## The Black Hand (May 5, 2008)

Joe Reilly said:


> Looks like 'General Attica' isn't the only one determined to disarm prog ressive anti-fascist forces from coming up with a rational political response...to come out with the same old shit given the circumstances is tipping into madness - or worse.



Give over - you have had circa 30 years at it - 15 years with the Ra illegitimate child iwca. 

The area of autonomy perspective has only just been invented.


----------



## TremulousTetra (May 5, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> No they're not - they have the exact opposite of the 30s style state worship and concentrate on de-centralisation, federalism and varieties of local democracy and so on, a modernised pan european neo-fascism with populist overtones but with very little of old style 'totalitarianism'.


it is not so long ago a Conservative pointed out to me a discussion paper on economics on the bnp website. he queried me because he believed, wrongly, I would have a lot in common with this article, because it was proposing the nationalisation of all industry/business with more than, I forget the precise figure, I think it was more than 80 workers.  Was centralisation the only current in 1930's fascism?  I seem to remember there were elements even in Nazi party who had a different attitude to Hitler (night of the long knives).  and how much was Hitler himself a 'prisoner' of capitalism?  So whilst I agree with you that many elements have evolved, hence the neofascism neo-Nazi label, there are continuities too.  one of those elements is, that fascist philosophy is a complete basketcase, even within the same fascist party, you can have completely contradictory views, HENCE nationalisation and decentralisation. 





> But that's neither here nor there - we're talking about the efficacy as a tactic of calling them facists or nazis given that it doesn't work, and related tactics of 'exposing them' and so on.


but it is a strawman, I don't know anybody who believes on its own calling them facists or nazis is the final solution.

just out of interest, why has British fascism took so long to catch up with its European counterparts?


----------



## The Black Hand (May 5, 2008)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> how can I talk to people outside my own circles, I can only talk to people I come across and know.  if you mean socialists etc, I meet and talk to them very rarely.  it is mostly ordinary joe people I speak to.  most of them accept, even some who vote for the BNP, that the BNP are fascist, so I cant understand why you politicals don't believe that the bnp is fascist.


I think a lot of them still are - those who have 'coverted' aren't genuine either.


----------



## TremulousTetra (May 5, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Are you trying to miss the point on purpose? It doesn't matter if the term is correct or not if no one takes blind bit of notice of you calling them it. No ones saying that the term can't or shouldn't be used in an analytical sense (or at least an argument made for its use).


why do they lie about it, if it doesn't hurt them politically?


----------



## TremulousTetra (May 5, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> > Are you trying to miss the point on purpose? It doesn't matter if the term is correct or not if no one takes blind bit of notice of you calling them it.
> 
> 
> aren't they?  do you actually speak to people who vote for the BNP, i do. 99% of them fervently denied the BNP are a fascist, and had said to me if they believe they were they would not vote for them.  many have said they know the BNP is fascist, but only vote for them because there is no chance of them getting power and it is a good way to spank the mainstream politicians.
> ...


----------



## audiotech (May 5, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Are you trying to miss the point on purpose? It doesn't matter if the term is correct or not if no one takes blind bit of notice of you calling them it. No ones saying that the term can't or shouldn't be used in an analytical sense (or at least an argument made for its use).



I heard a few people being interviewed about their voting intentions just before the recent elections. An eldely woman, thinking of voting BNP, stated that she was considering voting BNP because she thought that she was a minority in her own country.   Now, it would be sensible to think this elderly woman was around when the war against fascism was at it's height no? Then why not make clear the BNP's links to fascism? She may think twice about voting for them afterall.

Another couple, despite constant publicity about the BNP, seemed to be totally unaware of who they were and what they were about. The job of any serious anti-fascists first and foremost surely is to make it very clear to these sort of voters who and what the BNP are really about.


----------



## Joe Reilly (May 5, 2008)

MC5 said:


> The job of any serious anti-fascists first and foremost surely is to make it very clear to these sort of voters who and what the BNP are really about.



And after that what? Urge them to vote Labour, Lib Dem, Tory and UKIP - the 'non-nazi' right wing?


----------



## Bakunin (May 5, 2008)

Joe Reilly said:


> And after that what? Urge them to vote Labour, Lib Dem, Tory and UKIP - the 'non-nazi' right wing?




Which has of course been tried and has failed to stop their growth.

I don't doubt that there are many in the BNP with fascist sympathies, either overt or secret, but the fact remains that many people vote BNP as a protest vote to express their discontent and others may actually be buying into the BNP's pseudo-respectable image.

All it takes, under the present system, is enough protest votes and enough actual supporters voting for them to keep them making gains and building their share of the vote. If they can keep on doing that, and doing so successfully, then eventually they will have real power.

And I don't buy into this idea that we're supposed to be doing weel because their vote hasn't increased, either. All that means to me is that they seem, in a number of areas anyway, to be holding onto the vote they already have.


----------



## audiotech (May 5, 2008)

Joe Reilly said:


> And after that what? Urge them to vote Labour, Lib Dem, Tory and UKIP - the 'non-nazi' right wing?



Personally, I wouldn't urge them to vote for any other parties. My role is, as I said, to urge them not to vote BNP.

I took a tactical decision myself and voted to keep the tories out and to limit the impact of the BNP.

Sadly, no other choice was available.


----------



## TremulousTetra (May 5, 2008)

Bakunin said:


> Which has of course been tried and has failed to stop their growth.
> 
> I don't doubt that there are many in the BNP with fascist sympathies, either overt or secret, but the fact remains that many people vote BNP as a protest vote to express their discontent and others may actually be buying into the BNP's pseudo-respectable image.
> 
> ...



but this debate was had in sw after anl, and it was acknowledged that the anl  strategy was not enough.  so you and Joe are providing no great revelation.


----------



## Bakunin (May 5, 2008)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> but this debate was had in sw after anl, and it was acknowledged that the anl  strategy was not enough.  so you and Joe are providing no great revelation.



But I don't see UAF as doing much different from ANL, if anything, that's part of the problem.


----------



## TremulousTetra (May 5, 2008)

Bakunin said:


> But I don't see UAF as doing much different from ANL, if anything, that's part of the problem.


well when the ANL existed, there was no respect, building an alternative may have failed but it has been tried.


----------



## Bakunin (May 5, 2008)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> well when the ANL existed, there was no respect, building an alternative may have failed but it has been tried.



Tried and failed.

Personally, I'm not interested in failures, noble or otherwise. I'm interested in actually stopping the rise of fascism, not making a balls of the job and then saying 'Oh well, at least we gave it a go.'


----------



## kidtripod (May 5, 2008)

Is it relevant to attempt label the BNP fascist anyway? It clearly achieves absolutely nothing one way or the other.

Focus on repulsive elements of their policy (and their proposed stuff contains enough of it) rather than talking about your suspicions, because that only plays into their own game and gives them more propaganda about "being told what to think yada yada yada".

Whilst doing that do positive things to demonstrate the good aspects of life outside of a fascist society and in the process attempt to reduce the propaganda tools being gifted to them by incompetent government.

These arguments you are having are circular, irrelevant, and concerned with detail that no one really cares about. It's a waste of time and energy.

This may sound insane, but how about targeting the issues they're using to grow a power base in the very localities that they're successful? For example, if there is a housing or crime problem in the area where they're elected and they're using this for propaganda purposes (ie blaming it on immigration), how about the left try to steal their thunder by actually putting together something which combats these very problems (and/or demonstrate the problems aren't real), and taking away their raison d'etre in the view of most of their voters?


----------



## durruti02 (May 5, 2008)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> I'm not being pedantic, I'm trying to honestly analyse the situation.  You see what I seem to read in the words of yourself and people like Butch, is that the change in the fortunes of the BNP is down to the BNP.  People go on about them doing the local work etc and this is the root of their success.  In my area this patiently isn't true, and not only that the people on the left who have been doing such work have not been as successful as the fascist.  So I'm arguing local work etc is not the cause of the BNP limited success.  Have I misread you and butch, do you agree with that?
> 
> Euro fascism.  Undoubtably this is a change in tactics that is slightly contributing to their limited success SO FAR.  I am not being pedantic when I say their limited success is due to them moving down a level, not moving up.  They've had to seriously distance themselves, publicly, from their own history, traditions, to make any headway.  I can't remember where, but some time back Griffin argued fascism was unelectable in Britain.  But far more important than their change in tactics in my opinion, is the change in the objective circumstances.  The mainstream politicians, media, "the war on terror" is acting as a recruiting sergeant for the BNP, not the BNP.  The BNP have just stop doing the things that used to expose them as fascists.
> 
> PS. yes thanks, I am well. hope you and yours are.



hi rmp .. cheers .. no i did not think you werre being pedantic .. but i think that what you have observed shows they have broken thru that first phase of making out they were and occasionally being local activists. 

but yes absolutely the change in the political situation IS also key .. but it SHOULD herald a move to the left not the right!!! which is where thei r change in tactics comes in 

which brings us back i think to a fundamental reappraisal of what we need .. anti fascism is NOT it


----------



## durruti02 (May 5, 2008)

kidtripod said:


> Is it relevant to attempt label the BNP fascist anyway? It clearly achieves absolutely nothing one way or the other.
> 
> Focus on repulsive elements of their policy (and their proposed stuff contains enough of it) rather than talking about your suspicions, because that only plays into their own game and gives them more propaganda about "being told what to think yada yada yada".
> 
> ...



very good post .. but you having a laugh in the last para right??   the swp actually get involved with local politics???


----------



## Bakunin (May 5, 2008)

durruti02 said:


> very good post .. but you having a laugh in the last para right??   the swp actually get involved with local politics???




Not to play down the problems that exist around the world for a moment, but if the SWP CC devoted even half the energy to domestic problems and strategies that they devote to foreign ones then they might have a lot more support.

Somehow, I don't think twinning Nablus with Preston or wherever it was counts for too much on the doorstep when people have problems that need solving in their own community.


----------



## durruti02 (May 5, 2008)

Attica said:


> UAF - a bit l8;
> 
> "Racists Don’t Represent London -
> Protest Against BNP Fascist on London Assembly
> ...



seriously i want to have a go at the stupid fuckers .. this swp recruiting bullshit stunt will just make things worse .. if someone already thinks you are a stupid middle class wanker do you think all of a sudden they are going to start listenning to you when you act like an even more dopey middle class wanker??


----------



## JTG (May 5, 2008)

durruti02 said:


> very good post .. but you having a laugh in the last para right??   the swp actually get involved with local politics???


----------



## kidtripod (May 5, 2008)

Bakunin said:


> Somehow, I don't think twinning Nablus with Preston or wherever it was counts for too much on the doorstep when people have problems that need solving in their own community.



Precisely. In fact it probably contributes more to the idea that the SWP care more about what is elsewhere than local issues.


----------



## urbanrevolt (May 5, 2008)

durruti02 said:


> seriously i want to have a go at the stupid fuckers .. this swp recruiting bullshit stunt will just make things worse .. if someone already thinks you are a stupid middle class wanker do you think all of a sudden they are going to start listenning to you when you act like an even more dopey middle class wanker??



Yeah right get out of here it's middle class to want to smash the fascist off the street?

May be you've never been targeted by fascists but believe me if you actually knew any working class people who'd had bricks and petrol bombs thrown through their doors you wouldn't be saying it's middle class to argue for militant organised self-defence


----------



## kidtripod (May 5, 2008)

At the risk of gross naivety, who are the fascists doing that to, and why? (I've genuinely no idea).


----------



## durruti02 (May 5, 2008)

urbanrevolt said:


> Yeah right fuck off it's middle class to want to smash the fascaist off the street?
> 
> May be you've never been targeted by fascists but believe me if you actually knew any working class people who'd had bricks and petrol bombs thrown through their doors you wouldn't be saying it's middle class to argue for militant organised self-defence



 ur my friend .. i have been involved with anti fascism since the mid late 7ts .. i was in anl and afa .. i have been on redwatch .. so please do not patronise me .. the issue is that anti fascism is in the interests of the middle classes .. it distracts from the causes of fascism .. working class rule is in the interests of the w/c 

p.s. i am entirely in favour of militant organised self defence .. but why only against fascists???? if we had been doing militant organised self defence against loan sharks, lack of repairs, cuts to services, against police haraasment, in favour of youth clubs etc etc etc we would not be where we are .. anti fascism is a disaster for the w/c .. it is a middle class dead end


----------



## urbanrevolt (May 5, 2008)

I knew about twenty people this happened to in Oldham in 2000-2001.

May be the BNP have changed?  Only in their rhetoric.  I certainly wouldn't want BNP round where I live threatening my partner and my friends and their kids because they;re the wrong colour.


----------



## durruti02 (May 5, 2008)

urbanrevolt said:


> I knew about twenty people this happened to in Oldham in 2000-2001.
> 
> May be the BNP have changed?  Only in their rhetoric.  I certainly wouldn't want BNP round where I live threatening my partner and my friends and their kids because they;re the wrong colour.


 so the bnp have created all the problems in lancs??? give over .. they are merely the parasites feasting on the shit capital has created .. DO NOT LET THE SCUM SIDETRACK US.. it is playing exactly into the hands of the state


----------



## urbanrevolt (May 5, 2008)

btw durruti I shldn't have sworn at you- forgive that

i do respect your opinions and your history
working class rule is certainly in our interests and has to proceed from elementary self-defence.

including against the state and bosses of course and the rest you meantion but ALSO the fascists who are tools of the bosses and often their first line to attack us

Unions such as the CWU, Unison, RMT should issue statements supporting all members who refuse to serve or work in vicinity of fascists using health and safety arguments as first line


----------



## urbanrevolt (May 5, 2008)

no they are TOOLs of capital


----------



## kidtripod (May 5, 2008)

durruti02 said:


> so the bnp have created all the problems in lancs??? give over .. they are merely the parasites feasting on the shit capital has created .. DO NOT LET THE SCUM SIDETRACK US.. it is playing exactly into the hands of the state



This sums up my view on it as well.

Clearly some of you have much more direct experience of it than I do, but the leading problem with much anti-fascism is it starts to look a lot like what it's supposed to be opposing, or at least demonstrate the qualities that to the majority of people are repulsive.

My big concern would be using violence against fascists, because it moves the moral high ground in their favour. There is a very fine line between self defence and offense, and crossing it will tarnish the public perception, leading to marginalisation of the cause. 

Certainly invest in a self defence capability, but if you're sole function is to be anti-fascist and defend yourself from physical attacks that may or may not ever come you've lost at the first move.

The other thing to be wary of is that bringing them up all the time actually raises their profile. I might go as far as to say that actually going to protest directly against them is counter productive, partly because of the greater attention, and also that if the crowd happens to be formed of a certain sort then it reinforces their agenda.

Ironically the anti-fascist movement needs to define itself in terms of something beyond it's opponent to stand a chance of long term success.


----------



## durruti02 (May 5, 2008)

kidtripod said:


> This sums up my view on it as well.
> 
> Clearly some of you have much more direct experience of it than I do, but the leading problem with much anti-fascism is it starts to look a lot like what it's supposed to be opposing, or at least demonstrate the qualities that to the majority of people are repulsive.
> 
> ...


 good post


----------



## durruti02 (May 5, 2008)

urbanrevolt said:


> btw durruti I shldn't have sworn at you- forgive that
> 
> i do respect your opinions and your history
> working class rule is certainly in our interests and has to proceed from elementary self-defence.
> ...


 didn't even notice! was ranting too much!  no apology neccessary .. i am very much in favour of beating the fascists off the streets .. but i just think their strategy change ( hence this thread) is about us responding differrently .. hey i asked if you were down at the lmhr fest from your red socked comrade .. but you were not so we are still to meet! take care! bed time!


----------



## JTG (May 5, 2008)

kidtripod said:


> Ironically the anti-fascist movement needs to define itself in terms of something beyond it's opponent to stand a chance of long term success.



Spot on.

If the BNP are seen by some as an alternative to something shit then we need another alternative.


----------



## audiotech (May 5, 2008)

JTG said:


> Spot on.
> 
> If the BNP are seen by some as an alternative to something shit then we need another alternative.



It's about the battle for ideas and not who looks like a twat in a suit, i,e substance over style shurely?


----------



## The Black Hand (May 6, 2008)

Our lord and master with a short piece on local election happenings and events;

http://ianbone.wordpress.com/2008/05/01/iwca-lose-two-seats-in-oxford-to-labour/


----------



## The Black Hand (May 6, 2008)

JIms analysis has been said for some time, it is obvious Liberal left anti fascism, and I include SWP in this, is not working. Combine this with ultra left failure (IWCA loss 2 seats) leaves a big crisis in anti fascism with the existing accepted players shot.

So that leaves the way open for MAYDAY magazine to lead the way issue 2 out soon with the best analysis of what is going on. It theorises combined and uneven development perspectives which are necessary for serious radical thought today and develops new ways of seeing beyond what passes as current anti fascism (usual suspect positions).



JHE said:


> Brilliant!
> 
> I will be disappointed, though, if there are no articles dealing with foxes, parking meters, smuggled fags and the experience of the Anarchist International Brigade's armed solidarity with Hezbollah.



I cannot wait till issue 2 is out - signed copy anyone


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## TremulousTetra (May 6, 2008)

durruti02 said:


> very good post .. but you having a laugh in the last para right??   the swp actually get involved with local politics???


which is exactly who I described in my post above. sw directly involved in local politics on a much higher level than any of the fascist candidates, and yet nowhere near the same level of vote.

that's why I say this discrepancy is down to objective factors, rather than subjective factors.


----------



## TremulousTetra (May 6, 2008)

Bakunin said:


> Tried and failed.
> 
> Personally, I'm not interested in failures, noble or otherwise. I'm interested in actually stopping the rise of fascism, not making a balls of the job and then saying 'Oh well, at least we gave it a go.'


couldn't agree with you more, but that wasn't the point of my contribution was it? I merely outlined that lecturing at the SW about the twin track approach is lecturing to the converted. you and butch etc were just resurrecting straw man arguments, which are nearly 30-year-old. yawn.  and even less worthwhile endeavour than trying and failing.


----------



## TremulousTetra (May 6, 2008)

kidtripod said:


> Is it relevant to attempt label the BNP fascist anyway? It clearly achieves absolutely nothing one way or the other.
> 
> Focus on repulsive elements of their policy (and their proposed stuff contains enough of it) rather than talking about your suspicions, because that only plays into their own game and gives them more propaganda about "being told what to think yada yada yada".
> 
> ...


 same question I put to butch above, do you actually speak to people who vote BNP? do you actually speak to people who vote for the BNP, i do. 80% of them fervently denied the BNP are a fascist, and had said to me if they believe they were they would not vote for them. many have said they know the BNP is fascist, but only vote for them because there is no chance of them getting power and it is a good way to spank the mainstream politicians.


why do the bnp lie about not being fascist, if it doesn't hurt them politically?

lastly, why has British fascism took so long to start to catch up with its European counterparts?


----------



## TremulousTetra (May 6, 2008)

Bakunin said:


> Not to play down the problems that exist around the world for a moment, but if the SWP CC devoted even half the energy to domestic problems and strategies that they devote to foreign ones then they might have a lot more support.
> 
> Somehow, I don't think twinning Nablus with Preston or wherever it was counts for too much on the doorstep when people have problems that need solving in their own community.


 he says pointing to one of the more successful Respect groups.


----------



## TremulousTetra (May 6, 2008)

kidtripod said:


> This sums up my view on it as well.
> 
> Clearly some of you have much more direct experience of it than I do, but the leading problem with much anti-fascism is it starts to look a lot like what it's supposed to be opposing, or at least demonstrate the qualities that to the majority of people are repulsive.
> 
> ...


you can never achieve long-term success with fascism whilst you have capitalism.  the role of the antifascist movement is not to overthrow capitalism.  you're completely misunderstanding the nature of the beast, and the opposition strategy.


----------



## TremulousTetra (May 6, 2008)

JTG said:


> Spot on.
> 
> If the BNP are seen by some as an alternative to something shit then we need another alternative.


I am glad you have come to the same line of argument as SW.


----------



## kidtripod (May 6, 2008)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> you're completely misunderstanding the nature of the beast, and the opposition strategy.



I think that's actually true.

I came to the conclusion in discussing this yesterday that I really wasn't clear if the SWP etc. are actually anti-fascist or merely using it to further their own agenda. The first idea is very realistic, but the latter you would have to conclude is doomed to failure. Again.

So, are people serious about stopping any potential rise of fascism, or is this just a PR effort for our own pre-existing causes?

My hunch here is that the SWP will doom any effort merely by association. You need a much broader church of opinion united around the idea of anti-fascism, but this means being prepared to put down minor arguments and focus on the larger picture.

I understand the protest vote point, and agree, which is why I think the focus of any action needs to be restoring peoples faith in society. People voting BNP feel they're losing their place in society, and we need to demonstrate to everyone, including BNP voters, that they have a place in a fully inclusive society. (Too many uses of society in one paragraph here!)

The other aspect of this which puzzled me was even if you do assemble a broad anti-fascist coalition (under a different label, else we're symbiotically feeding them) what do you get them to do? Having mass rallies explicitly against the BNP just makes voting for them more appealing as a protest against being preached at by the political classes. It needs something far more profound and I really haven't got a clue!


----------



## The Black Hand (May 7, 2008)

Blimey, I'm winning on this thread, 305 posts circa 20% of total.


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## The Black Hand (May 7, 2008)

*Babyshambles*

Doherty said “there will be no passage of evil through these isles without a proper, good struggle.”

“This island has always been a melting pot and  personally I am 100% mongrel in the great dog stew of history - Bona fide scouse, London Irish, jew Geordie BiloRussian.”

Doherty, who missed last week’s Love Music Hate Racism carnival because of his imprisonment, said that “closed borders are like closed minds”.

“Racism is upon us and let us not forget it is still within living memory that six million people died in gas chambers because of a hateful ideology,” he added.

This for those who do not know, such as those on the MATB website, what Doherty said is a fine historical British tradition; Byron, William Morris, William Blake, E.P. Thompson etc would all have identified with this call of and for defiance and rebellion against the BNP. Doherty clearly identifies himself with the great romantic poets and their rich and powerful descriptions of life.

 Incidentally, Marxism and anarchism has always had utopian parts to them. It is only ultra left fools who deny that.


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## JTG (May 7, 2008)

Are you Cheesypoof in disguise?


----------



## butchersapron (May 7, 2008)

Attica you're on U75. Please talk about what's being posted here not on matb:

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/search.php?searchid=5912662


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## TremulousTetra (May 7, 2008)

kidtripod said:


> I think that's actually true.
> 
> I came to the conclusion in discussing this yesterday that I really wasn't clear if the SWP etc. are actually anti-fascist or merely using it to further their own agenda. The first idea is very realistic, but the latter you would have to conclude is doomed to failure. Again.
> 
> So, are people serious about stopping any potential rise of fascism, or is this just a PR effort for our own pre-existing causes?


SWs opinion on the nature of the beast, fascism, is that you cannot get rid of it until you get rid of capitalism.[ can discuss this if you want, or point you to literature and MP3s on the topic.) However, the BNP [fascism] is distinct from the Tories, a distinctly worse option.  SW learnt from the mistakes of the Communist Party in Germany who didn't draw a distinction between what they labelled "social fascists" (the Labour Party) and the Nazis.  So SW is indeed absolutely antifascist, because we want absolutely to stop a creation of a worse state of affairs than we already live in.  And if you really want to make a serious accusation of self interest, the one you could undoubtably make is that SW would probably be amongst the first people to be victimised in any kind of fascist worse state of affairs.





> You need a much broader church of opinion united around the idea of anti-fascism, but this means being prepared to put down minor arguments and focus on the larger picture.


 that is basically the Word for Word argument by SW about forming a antifascist united front.  Just to highlight the point, SW already had a antifascist organisation the ANL, several other organisations set up the UAF, and SW set aside its minor arguments and joined with the broader church opinion organisation and focus on the larger picture.





> I understand the protest vote point, and agree, which is why I think the focus of any action needs to be restoring peoples faith in society. People voting BNP feel they're losing their place in society, and we need to demonstrate to everyone, including BNP voters, that they have a place in a fully inclusive society. (Too many uses of society in one paragraph here!)


 whilst I absolutely agree with you that in the long term that is what is necessary, in the anti-fascist United fronts broad church of opinion is so broad, there is no way you could get agreement about how to achieve those aims.  Far better to concentrate on what we all agree on, we are opposed to fascism.  For me anti-fascism is about stopping the current situation getting worse, it is not about changing the fundamental exploitative nature of capitalist society.

[ if you have a way of changing the exploitative nature of capitalist society which brings about such alienation as we are discussing, without overthrowing capitalism, I am quite prepared to listen to it.)





> The other aspect of this which puzzled me was even if you do assemble a broad anti-fascist coalition (under a different label, else we're symbiotically feeding them) what do you get them to do? Having mass rallies explicitly against the BNP just makes voting for them more appealing as a protest against being preached at by the political classes. It needs something far more profound and I really haven't got a clue!


Hmmmmmmm, I have to admit that at the present I cannot see the antifascist movement being successful.  As a starting point, and it is only the starting point, building a mass movement is essential to the way we have dealt with fascism in the past. In my reading of history in the 1970s this mass movement was built from the bottom up.  The rallies were a product of the mass movement.  At present the rallies seen to be a way of kickstarting the mass movement.  They are a way by which a small number of activists can engage with a large audience.  And there is nothing essential wrong with that, IF, and it is a big if, if these actions bring about a mass rank-and-file movement. In my opinion there is absolutely no point in a tiny minority attempting to defeat fascism for us, defeating fascism has to be a community action.

[ and in building such mass community action, you can in embryo start to build the kind of movement which can remove the fundamental causes of fascism, in my opinion.)


----------



## durruti02 (May 7, 2008)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> SWs opinion on the nature of the beast, fascism, is that you cannot get rid of it until you get rid of capitalism.[ can discuss this if you want, or point you to literature and MP3s on the topic.) However, the BNP [fascism] is distinct from the Tories, a distinctly worse option.  SW learnt from the mistakes of the Communist Party in Germany who didn't draw a distinction between what they labelled "social fascists" (the Labour Party) and the Nazis.  So SW is indeed absolutely antifascist, because we want absolutely to stop a creation of a worse state of affairs than we already live in.  And if you really want to make a serious accusation of self interest, the one you could undoubtably make is that SW would probably be amongst the first people to be victimised in any kind of fascist worse state of affairs. that is basically the Word for Word argument by SW about forming a antifascist united front.  Just to highlight the point, SW already had a antifascist organisation the ANL, several other organisations set up the UAF, and SW set aside its minor arguments and joined with the broader church opinion organisation and focus on the larger picture. whilst I absolutely agree with you that in the long term that is what is necessary, in the anti-fascist United fronts broad church of opinion is so broad, there is no way you could get agreement about how to achieve those aims.  Far better to concentrate on what we all agree on, we are opposed to fascism.  For me anti-fascism is about stopping the current situation getting worse, it is not about changing the fundamental exploitative nature of capitalist society.
> 
> [ if you have a way of changing the exploitative nature of capitalist society which brings about such alienation as we are discussing, without overthrowing capitalism, I am quite prepared to listen to it.)Hmmmmmmm, I have to admit that at the present I cannot see the antifascist movement being successful.  As a starting point, and it is only the starting point, building a mass movement is essential to the way we have dealt with fascism in the past. In my reading of history in the 1970s this mass movement was built from the bottom up.  The rallies were a product of the mass movement.  At present the rallies seen to be a way of kickstarting the mass movement.  They are a way by which a small number of activists can engage with a large audience.  And there is nothing essential wrong with that, IF, and it is a big if, if these actions bring about a mass rank-and-file movement. In my opinion there is absolutely no point in a tiny minority attempting to defeat fascism for us, defeating fascism has to be a community action.
> 
> [ and in building such mass community action, you can in embryo start to build the kind of movement which can remove the fundamental causes of fascism, in my opinion.)



"For me anti-fascism is about stopping the current situation getting worse, it is not about changing the fundamental exploitative nature of capitalist society."

i think this is fundamentally wrong .. fascism is a SYMPTOM of wider forces .. to concentrate on the bnp in the present moment is INSANE absolutely INSANE .. it is the forces that create the bnp that we must attack if we are to hope to undercut them and create a movement that will overtake them .. ONLY then can we in any way hope to roll back their advance 

you are correct though in this .. fascism can not be destroyed before capital is destroyed .. but look at that again .. then we must concentrate on capital .. to do anything else is to let the allow the greater forces to carry on with their neo liberal project and fall for a massive red herring


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## geoff64 (May 7, 2008)

There's quite a lot of misunderstanding here.

Those of us who criticise the Left's response to the BNP (ie Lollipops and whistles and chants of Nazi's out outside the GLA) do not deny - necessarily - that the BNP are at core fascist, only that the strategy to defeat them cannot come ONLY from calling them Nazi's.  As well as exposing the anti-workibg class logic of BNP policy - and yes, exposing their past espousal of openly racist and fascist positions - we should also offer a positive challenge to them by attempting to create a space for working-class resistance where people see some point in fighting for themselves instead of believing the "we can sort it out for you" crap spouted by the BNP (and by other parties, for that matter).  People who vote BNP predominantly do so because they feel alienated from the political process, unrepresented and patronised by the middle-class establishment.  Anti-fascists really should disassociate their own politics from those that alienate working-class people.  We can offer a challenge to the status quo that is progressive and not racist.

Militant anti-fascism appears to be very narrowly understood in a manner foreign to working-class politics (look at anti-fascism in the 1930's which was far more than calling Mosely a Nazi). I hesitate to say it for fear of side-tracking the debate, but it is middle-class political correctness to see anti-fascism as a moral crusade against nasty people. It should be - and used to be - about offering the working class a political alternative, ie housing campaigns, unemployment campaigns etc as well as the odd battle of cable street. Of course, the Communist Party - which led most of the progressive campaigns - is thankfully dead as a dodo (as is Leninism and Trotskyism, thankfully). We have to reinvent a Left project (if you want to call it Left - and I wouldn't necessarily) that can advance the interests of the working class which - as a by-product - undermines fascism and the likes of the BNP.
THAT is what anti-fascism should be and needs to be - otherwise it's just so much hot air ...  balloons and lollipops ...


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## butchersapron (May 7, 2008)

Very good post, well made points.

Those you disagree with will say ''That's what we saying all along'


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## JTG (May 7, 2008)

*applauds*

I'm not interested in "anti-fascism" which is allied to establishment parties and encourages people to vote for them


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## audiotech (May 7, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Very good post, well made points.
> 
> Those you disagree with will say ''That's what we saying all along'



I don't think so.

The idea to have a left project that is not left and is absent of any ideology cannot sustain itself for very long.

The IWCA is a case in point.


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## lights.out.london (May 7, 2008)

JTG said:


> *applauds*
> 
> I'm not interested in "anti-fascism" which is allied to establishment parties and encourages people to vote for them



Like it.


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## geoff64 (May 7, 2008)

MC5 said:


> I don't think so.
> 
> The idea to have a left project that is not left and is absent of any ideology cannot sustain itself for very long.
> 
> The IWCA is a case in point.




apologies for posting this on this thread as well - but I'm finding that what i want to respond is being articulted (if that is the right word ) on both...


blimey, there are too many threads on the same subject for me to keep up (and i thought i was ok at multi-tasking).

just one thing, here, though, I think people have misrepresented the "iwca strategy". It ain't just about getting people elected - we will never be succesful at that all the time (or even most of the time). Of course, if you enter the elctoral arena, you do tend to judge your results by how many votes you get, but that ain't the be all and end all of the strategy, tbh. It's about offering a practical alternative to main-stream politics AND innoculating areas against far-right influence.

Again, people will no doubt point to the fact that where the "iwca strategy" has been consistently applied over the last 10 years or so, the far right has not been particularly active. Harold Hill offers an intersting case where "iwca strategy" has not been consistently applied - tried and collapsed unfortunately - and these things happen - and here we see the BNP are active.

For instance, despite "iwca electoral strategy" taking a knock in Oxford and failing to get elected in Islington or Hackney, does not mean that the BNP would have a free ride in those areas as they have in Barking & Dagenham. Difficult to prove, naturally, but I really do think that if "iwca strategy" had taken root in Barking - whether or not there were elected cllrs to show for it - then the BNP would not have been able to capitalise on conditions there as successfully as they have done.


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## geoff64 (May 7, 2008)

By the way MC5, I'm not really interested in whether it's called or perceived as a Left project at all.  The old ideologies are fuckin dead (good riddance) and we are trying to invent/reinvent something different for new times.  That don't mean that a new project has to be bereft of ideology - just not banging on and on with the old stuff that makes little sense to people anymore.

If it makes it easier for you, let's try some blended wine in some new (if albeit partially recycled) bottles ...


----------



## durruti02 (May 7, 2008)

geoff64 said:


> There's quite a lot of misunderstanding here.
> 
> Those of us who criticise the Left's response to the BNP (ie Lollipops and whistles and chants of Nazi's out outside the GLA) do not deny - necessarily - that the BNP are at core fascist, only that the strategy to defeat them cannot come ONLY from calling them Nazi's.  As well as exposing the anti-workibg class logic of BNP policy - and yes, exposing their past espousal of openly racist and fascist positions - we should also offer a positive challenge to them by attempting to create a space for working-class resistance where people see some point in fighting for themselves instead of believing the "we can sort it out for you" crap spouted by the BNP (and by other parties, for that matter).  People who vote BNP predominantly do so because they feel alienated from the political process, unrepresented and patronised by the middle-class establishment.  Anti-fascists really should disassociate their own politics from those that alienate working-class people.  We can offer a challenge to the status quo that is progressive and not racist.
> 
> ...



i agree with everything except you still use the words 'anti fascism' .. that just confuses it .. simple class politics is all what we need .. call it anti fascism and it is perceived as everything you criticise ..


----------



## durruti02 (May 7, 2008)

MC5 said:


> I don't think so.
> 
> The idea to have a left project that is not left and is absent of any ideology cannot sustain itself for very long.
> 
> The IWCA is a case in point.



the iwca is "absent of any ideology"???!! MC you surpass yourself .. no it is absent of the outdated arrogent patronising authoritarian managerial leninist politics that sums up the UK left .. is that what you meant??


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## audiotech (May 7, 2008)

geoff64 said:


> By the way MC5, I'm not really interested in whether it's called or perceived as a Left project at all.  The old ideologies are fuckin dead (good riddance) and we are trying to invent/reinvent something different for new times.  That don't mean that a new project has to be bereft of ideology - just not banging on and on with the old stuff that makes little sense to people anymore.
> 
> If it makes it easier for you, let's try some blended wine in some new (if albeit partially recycled) bottles ...



I like the cut of your gib sir. Mines a tot of rum.


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## butchersapron (May 7, 2008)

Unbelievable


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## audiotech (May 7, 2008)

durruti02 said:


> the iwca is "absent of any ideology"???!! MC you surpass yourself .. no it is absent of the outdated arrogent patronising authoritarian managerial leninist politics that sums up the UK left .. is that what you meant??



You might want to learn how to communicate your politics by reading geoff64's posts and control that short temper of yours.


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## audiotech (May 7, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Unbelievable



What? That I'm open to a rational debate and new ideas, rather than semantic nonsense or one word put downs.


----------



## geoff64 (May 7, 2008)

MC5 said:


> What? That I'm open to a rational debate and new ideas, rather than semantic nonsense or one word put downs.



to be honest you aren't exactly shy of the one-word "put-down" yourself are you ...?


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## audiotech (May 7, 2008)

geoff64 said:


> to be honest you aren't exactly shy of the one-word "put-down" yourself are you ...?



I give as good as I get fella.


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## geoff64 (May 7, 2008)

durruti02 said:


> i agree with everything except you still use the words 'anti fascism' .. that just confuses it .. simple class politics is all what we need .. call it anti fascism and it is perceived as everything you criticise ..



Can't agree with you.  You appear to be arguing that we dump "Anti-fascism" for purely semantic reasons.  talk about chucking the proverbial baby out of the window!

RECLAIM ANTI-FASCISM FOR THE PURIST VANGUARDS OF THE WORKING CLASS NOW!


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## durruti02 (May 7, 2008)

geoff64 said:


> Can't agree with you.  You appear to be arguing that we dump "Anti-fascism" for purely semantic reasons.  talk about chucking the proverbial baby out of the window!
> 
> RECLAIM ANTI-FASCISM FOR THE PURIST VANGUARDS OF THE WORKING CLASS NOW!



no not semantic .. it is important .. to go down the route of anti fascism is disasterous .. we need miltant anti capitalism .. fascism,bnp  is a distraction that we fall for at our peril


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## geoff64 (May 7, 2008)

durruti02 said:


> no not semantic .. it is important .. to go down the route of anti fascism is disasterous .. we need miltant anti capitalism .. fascism,bnp  is a distraction that we fall for at our peril



I do know what you mean, but fascism exists and i think that countering fascism  - in the context of "militant anti-capitalism" - is an important element.

I do think that anti-fascists have a very narrow conception of anti-fascism but I wouldn't want to alienate those who are motivated by anti-racism -which let's face it is the ostensible face of anti-fascism as superficially understood by most anti-fascists in the wider movement - by just banging on about "capitalism".

But, I do know that what you mean by "anti-capitalism" isn't the globalise resistance - ignore the local - variety.

"Anti-fascism's" still OK afaic, despite the Lefty emphasis on a liberal-moralist version that appeals to the middle-classes (although not exclusively, natch) ...


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## The Black Hand (May 8, 2008)

durruti02 said:


> no not semantic .. it is important .. to go down the route of anti fascism is disasterous .. we need miltant anti capitalism .. fascism,bnp  is a distraction that we fall for at our peril



That is ultra leftism, to dismiss something in advance of any practice. Now I am not suggesting that we go for traditional united fronts, but I don't think we should abandon the politial fight for creating progressive versions of it in the 21st century. If you do not participate, you are leaving the door open for the mass & reactionary variety of United front you say you are against.


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## TremulousTetra (May 8, 2008)

durruti02 said:


> "For me anti-fascism is about stopping the current situation getting worse, it is not about changing the fundamental exploitative nature of capitalist society."
> 
> i think this is fundamentally wrong .. fascism is a SYMPTOM of wider forces .. to concentrate on the bnp in the present moment is INSANE absolutely INSANE .. it is the forces that create the bnp that we must attack if we are to hope to undercut them and create a movement that will overtake them .. ONLY then can we in any way hope to roll back their advance
> 
> you are correct though in this .. fascism can not be destroyed before capital is destroyed .. but look at that again .. then we must concentrate on capital .. to do anything else is to let the allow the greater forces to carry on with their neo liberal project and fall for a massive red herring



ok so you have people who fundamentally opposed to the things you would suggest,but they one hundred percent agree with you about opposing fascism.you are basically saying to them "fuckoff, you cannot be a part of the antifascist movement unless you share a Socialist perspective"?  not really the way to build a MASS MOVEMENT is it?

then read my comments above, in embryo building this mass movement you are potentially building the kind of movement from below which then could go on to take on the kind of issues you are talking about. do you see what I mean?  It's about having faith in your politics.  it's about understanding that struggle, the activity of opposing fascism, the activity of striking etc, is far better at transforming people's ideas than propaganda.  you don't win people to your tactics through words, you win people through examples of material gains won by using the correct tactics


----------



## TremulousTetra (May 8, 2008)

MC5 said:


> What? That I'm open to a rational debate and new ideas, rather than semantic nonsense or one word put downs.


everybody knows that is the only thing you will get from butchers.

he is obviously clever, I could obviously learn quite a lot from him, but he point-blank refuses to help people. I am genuinely interested in his attack upon the theory of contradictory levels of consciousness, for example, but despite asking many times he will not go beyond inane onegline putdowns. So elitist.


----------



## TremulousTetra (May 8, 2008)

geoff64 said:


> I do know what you mean, but fascism exists and i think that countering fascism  - in the context of "militant anti-capitalism" - is an important element.
> 
> I do think that anti-fascists have a very narrow conception of anti-fascism but I wouldn't want to alienate those who are motivated by anti-racism -which let's face it is the ostensible face of anti-fascism as superficially understood by most anti-fascists in the wider movement - by just banging on about "capitalism".
> 
> ...


applause.  it is good to see you coming back on the ultra left. but Look at de kind of response your original comments engender.





JTG said:


> *applauds*
> 
> I'm not interested in "anti-fascism" which is allied to establishment parties and encourages people to vote for them


So in the real world JTG is not interested in being involved with any mass a/f campaign, because let's be honest, in the UK 2008 can you really perceive a mass anti-fascist campaign upon which the Labour Party would not "jump up on the bandwagon"?  and why shouldn't they?anybody who believes that the Labour Party membershipare not genuinely against Fascism, I'm sorry they are just conspiracy theory loons. people like butchers are just toytown revolutionaries more interested in flashing their revolutionary credentials by attacking the left, than fighting the right.


-----------
PS. I AM NOT SAYING THAT THE UAF IS BEYOND CRITICISM.  look at my comments above, the antifascist movement is at the moment failing to build the mass movement required. my simple point is, whilst a/f is failing, the elitism of JTG butch etc, is no solution.


----------



## durruti02 (May 8, 2008)

geoff64 said:


> I do know what you mean, but fascism exists and i think that countering fascism  - in the context of "militant anti-capitalism" - is an important element.
> 
> I do think that anti-fascists have a very narrow conception of anti-fascism but I wouldn't want to alienate those who are motivated by anti-racism -which let's face it is the ostensible face of anti-fascism as superficially understood by most anti-fascists in the wider movement - by just banging on about "capitalism".
> 
> ...



hey i agree 100% with first sentance  .. but then you change back again in the last sentance!


----------



## TremulousTetra (May 8, 2008)

geoff64 said:


> I do know what you mean, but fascism exists and i think that countering fascism  - in the context of "militant anti-capitalism" - is an important element.
> 
> I do think that anti-fascists have a very narrow conception of anti-fascism but I wouldn't want to alienate those who are motivated by anti-racism -which let's face it is the ostensible face of anti-fascism as superficially understood by most anti-fascists in the wider movement - by just banging on about "capitalism".
> 
> ...


applause.  it is good to see you coming back on the ultra left. but Look at de kind of response your original comments engender.





JTG said:


> *applauds*
> 
> I'm not interested in "anti-fascism" which is allied to establishment parties and encourages people to vote for them


So in the real world JTG is not interested in being involved with any mass a/f campaign, because let's be honest, in the UK 2008 can you really perceive a mass anti-fascist campaign upon which the Labour Party would not "jump up on the bandwagon"?  and why shouldn't they?anybody who believes that the Labour Party membershipare not genuinely against Fascism, I'm sorry they are just conspiracy theory loons. people like butchers are just toytown revolutionaries more interested in flashing their revolutionary credentials by attacking the left, than fighting the right.


-----------
PS. I AM NOT SAYING THAT THE US IS BEYOND CRITICISM.  look at my comments above, the antifascist movement is at the moment failing to build the mass movement required. my simple point is, while still a failing, the elitism of JTG butch etc, is no solution.


----------



## durruti02 (May 8, 2008)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> ok so you have people who fundamentally opposed to the things you would suggest,but they one hundred percent agree with you about opposing fascism.you are basically saying to them "fuckoff, you cannot be a part of the antifascist movement unless you share a Socialist perspective"?  not really the way to build a MASS MOVEMENT is it?
> 
> then read my comments above, in embryo building this mass movement you are potentially building the kind of movement from below which then could go on to take on the kind of issues you are talking about. do you see what I mean?  It's about having faith in your politics.  it's about understanding that struggle, the activity of opposing fascism, the activity of striking etc, is far better at transforming people's ideas than propaganda.  you don't win people to your tactics through words, you win people through examples of material gains won by using the correct tactics




RM .. it is amazing you have the front to accuse me in this way when the accusation falls far better on the swp 

let me ask you .. how many people are there in your 'left'? i'll answer for you .. very few! IF, IF your movement was big yourt criticisms might make more sense .. but it is not .. it is tiny .. 

there are millions of disillusioned w/c people out there who want change .. it is not ME being exclusive or ultra left or but the swp left with their insistance that last year muslims were teh issue and now this year the bnp is the issue ..  

iwca hi are REAL  OUTWARD looking wanting to work with ordinary people  .. with far far far fewwer resources than the swp left they have gained albeit in small areas an interest from w/c people that is way beyond what you have done since the early 7ts and that at a time of high struggle .. 

i am not saying in the slightest i will not work with anyone ..  except those who are instituting attacks on the w/c ( labour councils etc) ..


----------



## durruti02 (May 8, 2008)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> applause.  it is good to see you coming back on the ultra left. but Look at de kind of response your original comments engender.So in the real world JTG is not interested in being involved with any mass a/f campaign, because let's be honest, in the UK 2008 can you really perceive a mass anti-fascist campaign upon which the Labour Party would not "jump up on the bandwagon"?  and why shouldn't they?anybody who believes that the Labour Party membershipare not genuinely against Fascism, I'm sorry they are just conspiracy theory loons. people like butchers are just toytown revolutionaries more interested in flashing their revolutionary credentials by attacking the left, than fighting the right.
> 
> 
> -----------
> PS. I AM NOT SAYING THAT THE US IS BEYOND CRITICISM.  look at my comments above, the antifascist movement is at the moment failing to build the mass movement required. my simple point is, while still a failing, the elitism of JTG butch etc, is no solution.



what creates fascism rm? 

so what we need is opposition to that surely?

how is that ultra leftism!!


----------



## The Black Hand (May 8, 2008)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> applause.  it is good to see you coming back on the ultra left. but Look at de kind of response your original comments engender.So in the real world JTG is not interested in being involved with any mass a/f campaign, because let's be honest, in the UK 2008 can you really perceive a mass anti-fascist campaign upon which the Labour Party would not "jump up on the bandwagon"?  and why shouldn't they?anybody who believes that the Labour Party membershipare not genuinely against Fascism, I'm sorry they are just conspiracy theory loons. people like butchers are just toytown revolutionaries more interested in flashing their revolutionary credentials by attacking the left, than fighting the right.
> 
> 
> -----------
> PS. I AM NOT SAYING THAT THE US IS BEYOND CRITICISM.  look at my comments above, the antifascist movement is at the moment failing to build the mass movement required. my simple point is, while still a failing, the elitism of JTG butch etc, is no solution.



I have a lot on sympathy for this pov, at the minute butch/iwca etc are the ultra left. 

Ideas change in and thru' struggle, in a situation where working class politics has been in and around the labour party and trade unions (like it or not) it is ultra left crap to write all these millions of people off in advance. How can you dismiss the class conscious working class like this? And this in a situation where evidence overwhelmingly shows a widespread apolitical culture, you would write off those who are showing signs of class consciousness. 

It can't do, it won't do.


----------



## Joe Reilly (May 8, 2008)

MC5 said:


> Personally, I wouldn't urge them to vote for any other parties. My role is, as I said, to urge them not to vote BNP.
> 
> I took a tactical decision myself and voted to keep the tories out and to limit the impact of the BNP.
> 
> Sadly, no other choice was available.



Here in a nutshell is the failure at the heart of conservative anti-fascism. It knows what its against but refuses or is unable to say what it is for. Putting it is pleading with working class people, in the main, not to vote 'extremist' when it is the extremists who appear to be the only people addressing the issues that concern them. This echoes the Blair plea that 'there is plenty of choice within the mainstream'. But there isn't. All subscribe to one degree or another the same right-wing anti-working class neo-liberal formula. 

By lining up behind or with them the increasingly common perception is that it is only the BNP who are for the working class and representative of them. Predictably the BNP is now seen as the 'radical alternative' while conservative 'anti-fascism' is regarded as a tool of the status quo. In the short term Hope not Hate and so on may retard the growth of the BNP but at a cost of further radicalising the hundreds of thousands who already back them and potentially the millions ignored and betrayed by all the neo-liberal parties.


----------



## The Black Hand (May 8, 2008)

Joe Reilly said:


> Here in a nutshell is the failure at the heart of conservative anti-fascism. It knows what its against but refuses or is unable to say what it is for. Putting it is pleading with working class people, in the main, not to vote 'extremist' when it is the extremists who appear to be the only people addressing the issues that concern them. This echoes the Blair plea that 'there is plenty of choice within the mainstream'. But there isn't. All subscribe to one degree or another the same right-wing anti-working class neo-liberal formula.
> 
> By lining up behind or with them the increasingly common perception is that it is only the BNP who are for the working class and representative of them. Predictably the BNP is now seen as the 'radical alternative' while conservative 'anti-fascism' is regarded as a tool of the status quo. In the short term Hope not Hate and so on may retard the growth of the BNP but at a cost of further radicalising the hundreds of thousands who already back them and potentially the millions ignored and betrayed by all the neo-liberal parties.



Any evidence for this JOe? "while conservative 'anti-fascism' is regarded as a tool of the status quo"


----------



## audiotech (May 8, 2008)

Joe Reilly said:


> Here in a nutshell is the failure at the heart of conservative anti-fascism. It knows what its against but refuses or is unable to say what it is for. Putting it is pleading with working class people, in the main, not to vote 'extremist' when it is the extremists who appear to be the only people addressing the issues that concern them. This echoes the Blair plea that 'there is plenty of choice within the mainstream'. But there isn't. All subscribe to one degree or another the same right-wing anti-working class neo-liberal formula.
> 
> By lining up behind or with them the increasingly common perception is that it is only the BNP who are for the working class and representative of them. Predictably the BNP is now seen as the 'radical alternative' while conservative 'anti-fascism' is regarded as a tool of the status quo. In the short term Hope not Hate and so on may retard the growth of the BNP but at a cost of further radicalising the hundreds of thousands who already back them and potentially the millions ignored and betrayed by all the neo-liberal parties.



I've always been in favour of workers power (not the sect), pretty radical stuff really, but that's old hat to the likes of you.


----------



## Joe Reilly (May 8, 2008)

MC5 said:


> I don't think so.
> 
> The idea to have a left project that is not left and is absent of any ideology cannot sustain itself for very long.
> 
> The IWCA is a case in point.



The IWCA is pro-working class pure and simple. Only a left that is divorced from the working class regards that as suspicious and controversial. As for ideology whatever happened the ideologically pure SA and SLP? 

Or Respect for that matter? A project steeped in cynicism, short-termism and opportunism if there ever was one.
Tell me did idelogy lead the SWP into that predicatable cul-de-sac? Or was it a deviation from ideology? 

On a wider level was it ideology or its absence that caused the SWP to lend tacit support to the campiagn for inter-generational sex in 1980, refuse to support the miners in 1984, the anti-poll tax campaign in 1990, Republican hunger strikers, and in 1997 hailed the Blair victory in 1997 as ' a class vote!'

Odd isn't it that without being armed with 'ideology' ie (liberalism laced with Stalinsim) the IWCA has so avoided similar pratfalls?


----------



## audiotech (May 8, 2008)

Joe Reilly said:


> The IWCA is pro-working class pure and simple. Only a left that is divorced from the working class regards that as suspicious and controversial. As for ideology whatever happened the ideologically pure SA and SLP?
> 
> Or Respect for that matter? A project steeped in cynicism, short-termism and opportunism if there ever was one.
> Tell me did idelogy lead the SWP into that predicatable cul-de-sac? Or was it a deviation from ideology?
> ...



The SA wanted to be too pure, the SLP was top down control freakery.

Respect was a serious, but a failed attempt to to garner some of the millions who marched against the war and to forge an electoral challenge to New Labour.

As for intergenerational sex? Wasn't that something to do with defending homosexuals campaigning for lowering the age of consent who were being vilified in the right wing press? Peter Thatchell was involved I believe?

Miners strike? Arthur Scargill actually wrote to the SWP asking for support and the SWP gave it.

Initially the support from the SWP was political.

I addressed shop stewards committees myself and visited loads of workplaces arguing for support. It was difficult, some trade unionists were so scared of being sacked for showing said support to the miners that we had to meet them secretly in car parks.

The SWP also argued that rather than picketing pits where the strike was solid, pickets should be sent to Nottinghamshire where the support wasn't as strong. Power stations too.

Then things shifted and a decision was made to set-up support groups to collect money and food for mining communities.

I was involved with FLAG (Frickley Ladies Action Group). This was a very militant pit and they welcomed us into their communit, where we stayed on a few occasions. At the end of the strike we were given a miners lamp in appreciation.

What next? Ahh yes, the poll tax. I was involved in my local community leafleting, raising money, going to meetings, pickets at the town hall, demos and keeping the bailiffs at bay.

Irish Republicans? Oh yes, lots of support given on this. I'm from an Irish background see. A friend of mine went to the north at the time and brought me back a plastic bullet. He was presented with a shield from Republicans made in the Maze.

Last one. "The SWP hailed the Blair Victory as a 'class vote'". No they didn't. What they actually said was vote with your class, whilst pointing out that Blair had wrapped himself in the union jack and would deliver nothing to the working class.

Your attempts at smear are pitiful. With leadership like yours who would really want to join a bunch of rank amateurs like the IWCA?


----------



## Joe Reilly (May 8, 2008)

MC5 said:


> The SA wanted to be too pure, the SLP was top down control freakery.
> 
> *The SA was 'pure' to what exactly? The SLP needed to create the circumstances of the '70's to have any resonance - blaming Scargill is a basic unwillingness to look at the core reasons for the wider failure of socialism itself. *
> Respect was a serious, but a failed attempt to to garner some of the millions who marched against the war and to forge an electoral challenge to New Labour. *Forge and electoral challenge to New Labour while at the same calling for a vote for Labour where the Respect was not standing? How radical is that?*
> ...



*Other 'amateurs'*.


----------



## audiotech (May 8, 2008)

Joe Reilly said:


> *Other 'amateurs'*.



If you say so Joe. 

The failed socialism of the sects is what I meant by 'pure'. There might be some agreement there.  Remind me why RA walked?

No, you're wrong on the Labour vote. Vote left, vote tactical is how I saw the position.

"The last sexual outlaws"? First time I've heard that phrase? Don't have much more to add to that.

The miners strike could only be won politically and that is what was pushed for at the start. Oh and the word "charity" never came into it. Those of us there at the time were never gonna accept any old tat to pass onto the miners.

The unemployed couldn't be organised? Who said that and when?  As someone who was unemployed at the time, being threatened with bailiffs, who sometime long before, had helped organise 'right to work' marches and lives on an estate, I would find that sort of comment distasteful and would have nothing to with an organisation that said it. Mind you, I had left the SWP by that time, so give me a link - if you can? 

"Staunch?" Never uttered the word.  The local branch of the SWP was heavily involved in campaigns around the hunger strike, working with representatives of the Irish community. Many a song was sung over a pint. Remembering Frank Stagg outside Wakefield Prison, when the NF and police with dogs turned up, was a different kettle of fish to be sure.

The SWP did not call for a vote for New labour did they, or is that party spin on your part?


----------



## TremulousTetra (May 8, 2008)

durruti02 said:


> RM .. it is amazing you have the front to accuse me in this way when the accusation falls far better on the swp
> 
> let me ask you .. how many people are there in your 'left'? i'll answer for you .. very few! IF, IF your movement was big yourt criticisms might make more sense .. but it is not .. it is tiny ..
> 
> ...


my question was nothing to do with the size of left, or SW, it was about you putting barriers in the way of people who declared themselves to be antifascist, organising to oppose fascism.   it's about you saying about the trade union movement and others who have created UAF, they are part of the problem.  it's about you accusing me of being part of a middle-class conspiracy, than acknowledging i have genuine fundamental disagreements with anarchism, and many of the things you say.  its about the hypocrisy of those who oppose those in the TRADITION of the Nazis, being labelled Nazis on here, whilst not opposing the use of social Fascist on here. 

If a million workers said "the  only reason I want to oppose the BNP is because they are racist scum", what would you say?  I mean it's a very gross simplification, but that is the position of the trade union movement.  what are you going to say to them, you are not anti-fascists, you are part of a middle-class conspiracy?

my secondly reason for opposition to it I just think your methodology of confronting the antifascist movement, is counterproductive. a more productive line I think would be, critical support, rather than declaring them the enemy "UAF SWP LMHR trade unions, Labour Party fuck off".    

as far as removing the fundamental causes of the minority voting fascism, without removing capitalism, I don't believe you can.  I don't believe you can. remove capitalism by the methods you suggest.


----------



## durruti02 (May 9, 2008)

Joe Reilly said:


> Here in a nutshell is the failure at the heart of conservative anti-fascism. It knows what its against but refuses or is unable to say what it is for. Putting it is pleading with working class people, in the main, not to vote 'extremist' when it is the extremists who appear to be the only people addressing the issues that concern them. This echoes the Blair plea that 'there is plenty of choice within the mainstream'. But there isn't. All subscribe to one degree or another the same right-wing anti-working class neo-liberal formula.
> 
> By lining up behind or with them the increasingly common perception is that it is only the BNP who are for the working class and representative of them. Predictably the BNP is now seen as the 'radical alternative' while conservative 'anti-fascism' is regarded as a tool of the status quo. In the short term Hope not Hate and so on may retard the growth of the BNP but at a cost of further radicalising the hundreds of thousands who already back them and potentially the millions ignored and betrayed by all the neo-liberal parties.



spot on ..


----------



## durruti02 (May 9, 2008)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> my question was nothing to do with the size of left, or SW, it was about you putting barriers in the way of people who declared themselves to be antifascist, organising to oppose fascism.
> 
> 1) it's about you saying about the trade union movement and others who have created UAF, they are part of the problem.
> 
> ...



added numbers into your text hope that ok 

1) it IS part of the problem that the likes of prentice who have screwed and disiluusioned millions of workers prioritise anti bnp this instead of support for their memebrs generally against cuts etc .. it is deeply insideous and noted by all my colleagues ' they do fuck all for us but tell us not to vote bnp'  ( btw one of my colleagues a lovely soft apolitical lad did vote bnp 'they stand up for us' he said) 


2)conspiracy? not i just said it is a middle class ideology .. it is .. it states fascism is an aberation from capital .. 

3) sorry don't get that bit ( i get called a strasserite ( nazi) for saying i only believe the bnp can be destroyed by creating a real class based  alternative .. how thick is that??? .. and you wonder why i get pissed off / angry somemtimes?????  )

4) fair play but millions of workers have been saying 'pay us decent wages .. employ kids instead of immigrants .. give us social housing ..do not shut hopsitals .. give the kids something to do' etc etc deal with the real issues properly and the bnp will disappear or become more clearly w/c and anti w/c .. no it is seen as JR says as THE w/c alternative 

5) fair play i appreciate this .. i have already kind of apologised in a post  to CR .. the title was written after seeing there was to be a picket of fucking city hall .. i know what real politics is .. you do .. sorry RMP mate these swpers now would not know decent class politics if it smashed them in the face .. and then they wouldl shout fascist at it 

6) it is working toward, the progress, the doing not the end result that is important .. you think i think we can get rid of capital next year?? no but it is working to that that undercuts the scum ,, bnp tory and new labour

cheers for now


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## The Black Hand (May 9, 2008)

durruti02 said:


> spot on ..


But Joe didn't come up with the evidence he was asked for. Evidence should never be too much to ask for a marxist.


----------



## JimPage (May 9, 2008)

Back on to fortcoming by elections, BNP not fighting the Crewew Parliamenetary by election, which is slightly surprising

2 council by elections I know of
5th June Allerdale Cockermouth All Saints Ward
13 June Carlisle Upperby Ward


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## butchersapron (May 9, 2008)

Rochester South and Horsted ward - Medway, yesterday:


Conservative 	1,847	
The Green Party 	104	
Liberal Democrat 	767	
Labour 	819	
British National Party 	
257	

The turnout was 41 per cent.


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## TremulousTetra (May 9, 2008)

durruti02 said:


> added numbers into your text hope that ok
> 
> 1) it IS part of the problem that the likes of prentice who have screwed and disiluusioned millions of workers prioritise anti bnp this instead of support for their memebrs generally against cuts etc .. it is deeply insideous and noted by all my colleagues ' they do fuck all for us but tell us not to vote bnp'  ( btw one of my colleagues a lovely soft apolitical lad did vote bnp 'they stand up for us' he said)
> 5) fair play i appreciate this .. i have already kind of apologised in a post  to CR .. the title was written after seeing there was to be a picket of fucking city hall .. i know what real politics is .. you do .. sorry RMP mate these swpers now would not know decent class politics if it smashed them in the face .. and then they wouldl shout fascist at it


but my point is you are falling into the language of the toytown revolutionaries. the left are the enemy.  I do not consider anybody on the left, any group any individual the enemy, or on the side of the enemy. you have to have a more sophisticated engagemeing with them, if you seriously want to build the kind of mass movement that can seriously address those issues.. critical support. Broadley we support them, and we express our support when they do things which are correct, and then you have the right to criticise when they are wrong.  We may not like those trade union leaders, but they have been collected by millions of workers.

the rise or fall of fascism is far too complicated to be pinned down to one factor, the response of the antifascist movement.  I'm sorry, I'm just not going to accept this stupidity from the toytown revolutionaries. And I think you're being far too soft on workers like your colleague who voted BNP.  Whilst they have every right to be aggrieved at the situation, they do not have the right to make the situation worse without being opposed.



> 2)conspiracy? not i just said it is a middle class ideology .. it is .. it states fascism is an aberation from capital ..


sorry, I didn't understand this.


> 3) sorry don't get that bit ( i get called a strasserite ( nazi) for saying i only believe the bnp can be destroyed by creating a real class based  alternative .. how thick is that??? .. and you wonder why i get pissed off / angry somemtimes?????  )


look, SW educated me that labelling people like Margaret Thatcher Nazi, Tony Blair, even George Bush, is completely wrong POLITICALLY.so the last thing I'm going to do to socialist like you is label you Nazi.in my opinion, from what I have read from you, you seem to have a very think local act local socialist vision of the world.  that is all I said. on the other hand, it is quite common for the toytown revolutionaries on here to describe left organisations as social fascist etc, without challenge. I suppose the question is, why are some people so keen to attack the use of poetic licence when describing fascists as Nazis, but are not prepared to attack the far more damaging serious labelling of Democrats as fascist?

There is definitely a distinction between fascism and democrats.  The toytown revolutionaries and yourself are refusing to accept this distinction, and you are not the first.  There is a bunch of revisionist historians along with Norman Tebbit who argue there is no distinction between Stalin and Hitler.  And whilst there is a unsophisticated truth to this, well to the victims there was no difference, it is a politically motivated lie.


> 4) fair play but millions of workers have been saying 'pay us decent wages .. employ kids instead of immigrants .. give us social housing ..do not shut hopsitals .. give the kids something to do' etc etc deal with the real issues properly and the bnp will disappear or become more clearly w/c and anti w/c .. no it is seen as JR says as THE w/c alternative
> 
> 6) it is working toward, the progress, the doing not the end result that is important .. you think i think we can get rid of capital next year?? no but it is working to that that undercuts the scum ,, bnp tory and new labour
> 
> cheers for now


for 100 years without a significant section of the working class voting for the Tory party, the Tory party would have never been in government.  why do Socialists and revolutionaries have to accept Conservative and reactionary ideas just because minority, or even a majority, of the working class and accept them? I am not going to accept "wheelchair users ares parasites", "should shoot drug dealers", "should bring back hanging", "should give all the black people jobs, building ships. put them in the ships, and then sink the fuckers in the Channel", just because working-class members of my family have said those things.  majority of my socialist life I've had to argue with working-class people about the IRA. more importantly, I've never written them off either. so why are you writing off me, trade unionists, members of the Labour Party etc?

more importantly, i believe you've got the whole process of trying address those issues on the minimum wage half right and half wrong. you are absolutely right that we do have to address those issues in the here and now. it is addressing issues in the here and now we can build the kind of mass movement that can win gains in the here and now. but I don't believe you can produce a "revolution of hope" by addressing the reactionary ideas, and the most reactionary members of the working class.a working class person who has voted Tory all that life is not going to be won to revolution, by calling for immigration controls.  it is just going to convince him that even the left think immigrants are the problem, not capitalism.


----------



## audiotech (May 9, 2008)

Strange goings on in Wales as three BNP town councillors resign?



> Colwyn Bay town councillors Paul Harley, Sue Harley and John Oddy formally resigned as BNP councillors yesterday at their very first council meeting, where all three were represented by Oddy who stated in a post on the icWales forum;
> 
> 'I attended the meeting to inform the Council that yesterday afternoon all three Councillors had resigned from the BNP and that we were prepared to remain on the Council as Independents, if the Council required it all three of us were prepared to also resign from the Council and allow our seats to be put forward to a by-election that we would not contest.'
> 
> ...



Oddy no racist?



> According to Pat Pattison, who resigned from the party after discovering its 'intolerable' racism, Oddy verbally attacked him for having the temerity to help an Asian family as part of his own duties as a town councillor, stating that the party wasn't happy with him because he'd been 'helping fucking Pakis' and that 'they're Muslim scum anyway'.


----------



## durruti02 (May 10, 2008)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> but my point is you are falling into the language of the toytown revolutionaries. the left are the enemy.  I do not consider anybody on the left, any group any individual the enemy, or on the side of the enemy. you have to have a more sophisticated engagemeing with them, if you seriously want to build the kind of mass movement that can seriously address those issues.. critical support. Broadley we support them, and we express our support when they do things which are correct, and then you have the right to criticise when they are wrong.  We may not like those trade union leaders, but they have been collected by millions of workers.
> 
> the rise or fall of fascism is far too complicated to be pinned down to one factor, the response of the antifascist movement.  I'm sorry, I'm just not going to accept this stupidity from the toytown revolutionaries. And I think you're being far too soft on workers like your colleague who voted BNP.  Whilst they have every right to be aggrieved at the situation, they do not have the right to make the situation worse without being opposed.
> 
> ...



mate i do not call for immigration controls FFS how many times do i have to say this???  and what on earth are you on about about accepting reactionary ideas??? i call for simple grass roots community politics not shooting all drug dealers!! it is no wonder that  people reject the so called left when you distort simple grass roots socialism like i support so much .. 

re my colleague? what should i tell him .. he should have voted ken??? LOL me and another ex nf colleague told him simply that they lie when the say they support british people that all politicians lie .. but you probably disagree with that .. this is a kid who all his mates were black but now he can see no other way to go .. 

toy town revolutionaries??? me??  LOL so working locally working with with TAs being a shop steward trying to build fronm the base concretely is a toy town revolution????  .. while running around with yellow lollipops shouting bnp out put out is not??? you ARE joking me right????

p.s. re enemies .. i have heard enough of the left describing each other as enemies over the years .. for me an enemy is someone who holds back people having control over their lives .. politicians bureucrats managers and often the trot left who disempower not empower


----------



## TremulousTetra (May 10, 2008)

durruti02 said:


> mate i do not call for immigration controls FFS how many times do i have to say this???


sorry, controlling immigration by only allowing local people to have local jobs, yes? which will reduce the level of immigration yes?  I don't agree that is a solution.





> and what on earth are you on about about accepting reactionary ideas??? i call for simple grass roots community politics not shooting all drug dealers!! it is no wonder that  people reject the so called left when you distort simple grass roots socialism like i support so much ..


 that isn't what I meant to say.  My friends and family, working class people, have reactionary ideas, ALONG WITH AND I HASTEN TO ADD SOME VERY PROGRESSIVE IDEAS.  I don't appeal to them by agreeing with what I personally veiw as a reactionary opinions, immigrants are part of the problem, I appeal to them on the basis of their Progressive views, let's unite black and white and save the a local hospital.  And as an antifascist, anti-sexist, and to lots of things, I do challenge the ideas in my friends and families head that I disagree with.

You and butch seem to be saying we shouldn't, BUT IF the fascists are a working class concern why do you refuse to address that concern?


> re my colleague? what should i tell him .. he should have voted ken??? LOL me and another ex nf colleague told him simply that they lie when the say they support british people that all politicians lie .. but you probably disagree with that .. this is a kid who all his mates were black but now he can see no other way to go ..


 like the antifascistts,Fair enough.  did you also say,you don't have two vote for any of them,just refuse to vote, it's only encourages all of the bastard politician's?  its allright to protest in over hunger, but not by voting for plague.

anyway, don't give up on him comerade, try and win him to your methods.



> toy town revolutionaries??? me??  LOL so working locally working with with TAs being a shop steward trying to build fronm the base concretely is a toy town revolution????  .. while running around with yellow lollipops shouting bnp out put out is not??? you ARE joking me right????


 go back and read, I did actually distinguish between you and the toy town revolutionaries.


> p.s. re enemies .. i have heard enough of the left describing each other as enemies over the years .. for me an enemy is someone who holds back people having control over their lives .. politicians bureucrats managers and often the trot left who disempower not empower


 well unfortunately comerade, that is ONE of the qualities in MY definition of a "toy town revolutionaries".  Writing off a COMRADE you have been unable to win to your analysis, as "an enemy". Normally it would more applied to people like J*E, maybe b******s, more intent on one line putdowns of their "enemies", than a reasonable debate.


----------



## durruti02 (May 11, 2008)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> 1)sorry, controlling immigration by only allowing local people to have local jobs, yes? which will reduce the level of immigration yes?  I don't agree that is a solution. that isn't what I meant to say.
> 
> 2) My friends and family, working class people, have reactionary ideas, ALONG WITH AND I HASTEN TO ADD SOME VERY PROGRESSIVE IDEAS.  I don't appeal to them by agreeing with what I personally veiw as a reactionary opinions, immigrants are part of the problem, I appeal to them on the basis of their Progressive views, let's unite black and white and save the a local hospital.  And as an antifascist, anti-sexist, and to lots of things, I do challenge the ideas in my friends and families head that I disagree with.
> 
> ...



1) yet again a leftist saying he is against helping kids/local people get local jobs  .. sorry this is SO unbelievable for a socialist to say this and a policy that has been disasterous to the left .. 

2) yet again i NEVER EVER say immigrants are part of the problem and nor does butchers or TB or anyone i can think of on urban .. honestly mate the inability of the left to confuse a criticque of the neo liberal use of migrants and the right wing position of being against immigrants is fundamental in illustrating the lefts and all of our problems 

3) i do not say we should not deal with the fascists .. what i DO say is to do that under the banner of anti fascism is counter productive .. the bnp should be addressed by local grassroots campaigns, like anything else that attempts to disempower ordianry people 

4) yes of course i did .. he voted boris second .. he has got more stick for that than voting bnp   .. there is no question that he would vote for a iwca or similar moe than bnp as would most people i know who have given up on all the major parties .. he and they would not vote leftlist or respect as the associate them with being muslim parties

5) yes apologies you did .. i did not notice 

6) i do not write off the maj of the left or even trots .. and tbh i do not write of all i call an 'enemy'  .. you are correct that it would be wrong to do so BUT surely people who disempower others are wrong? maybe enemy is to casual a word so maybe you are correct to criticise my use of that word BUT this is an issue the left ignore  .. disempowerment is one of THE major issues with w/c people at the moment .. one of peoples major complaints about e.g. immigration is that they have NO choice in this .. and yet again the left have blanked them for saying this 

take care mate


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## The Black Hand (May 12, 2008)

The anti racist message of the BNP has missed this guy; 
http://www.faceparty.com/gaztaff


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## derf (May 12, 2008)

> Less about politics, more about people – for it is by serving the people that we will secure enough extra votes to keep our bandwagon rolling towards the power we need to have a serious impact on politics and the future.



Did Hitler ever come up with that one?
Bet he would kick himself if he missed it.

BMP politics are simple.
1) Make people think they are the only party interested in your local problems.
2) Push as many anti anyone you don't like stories as you can (Truth not important)
3) Fuck up the country.

Nut cases like Griffin never learn that their hate only ends up destroying what they claim to love.


Edited to say that I'm not suggesting that durruti02 in any way supports the far right bastards.


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## JimPage (May 12, 2008)

2 by elections with BNP canddiates coming up in Carlisle and Allerdale. Possibly significant council by election coming soon in a Hornchurch ward, which I expect BNP to stand in, as it was their 3rd most promising Havering ward in 2004 ( do not have ward figures for the 2008 election yet)


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## durruti02 (May 12, 2008)

derf said:


> Did Hitler ever come up with that one?
> Bet he would kick himself if he missed it.
> 
> BMP politics are simple.
> ...



can you edit that qoute above that appears to be from me but some people might not realise is not??


----------



## The Black Hand (May 13, 2008)

On a diffeerent website which shall remain namless Butchers says there are lots of articles around about anti fascism - Do you have any links Butch? Or is that more fantasy from you?


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## The Black Hand (May 14, 2008)

Just a point - people gabble on about 'a vote that the left would die for' but that is a misreading of political history. It is even post-modernist analysis!!

The misreading is due to a failure to understand the history of the left in the period since the foundation of the LRC. It is not so long ago that the LRC/Labour party at the start of WW1 had only 36 seats. It only had 5 seats in 1905 and one of them left to go to the liberals. This period is characterised by left pluralism, there are many views and parties of the working class.

Progressing to WW2 and after, the Labour party only arrived really with the defeat of Churchill in 1945. Combine this with the emergence of Fordism and full employment/Modernism, the left was faced with new challenges. 

This is the period of inclusion of the Trade union and Labour party hierarchy within the status quo. So, the 1950's saw the rethinking of Left politics by some, the first period to see the emergence of Left independence against the current. Leftism was to become the mole burrowing within the Labour movement and Trade unions, votes for anybody else than Labour were seen as Ultra Left positions, as was a position outside Trade unions. This period has still not ended, although it is blurring with the new conditions. 

In the current period to say that 'the BNP get a vote the Left would die for' is a utopian arguement divorced from the history of the Left.


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## derf (May 15, 2008)

durruti02 said:


> can you edit that qoute above that appears to be from me but some people might not realise is not??



Hope that's OK


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## The Black Hand (May 15, 2008)

*Year on year decline*

The following analysis disagrees with the BNP are doing well approach, and is evidence of combined and uneven development of class consciousness. Orthodox politico's can only bluster in the face of real world evidence which disagrees with their pov. 

In most areas the BNP share of the vote was well down on last year, which in itself was down on the previous election, particularly in its traditional heartlands.

Local
authority        Sandwell    Dudley    Kirklees   Burnley   Thurrock 
 2006                33.0%     26.5%     18.4%     30.0%     26.7% 
 2007                24.6%     18.7%     16.5%       25.1%    24.5% 
 2008               17.4%      14.7%     14.4%     22.8%      21.4% 

    Broxbourne 
2006   N/A 
2007  20.0% 
2008   15.4% 

      Epping 
2006   N/A 
2007   18.5% 
2008   15.0%


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## TremulousTetra (May 15, 2008)

Durrito, I wrote this a couple of days ago in response to one of your posts, but can't find it now.  I think you ask me a question like, "what are you going to do, ask the most progressive people opposed to new Labour to vote new Labour"?

Sure why not?  I don't understand your logic.  It is perfectly possible for the progressive members of the working class to be against new Labour, whilst being against fascism as even worse.  The majority accept, that even where you have a openly new Labour candidate, it is more progressive to vote for the new Labour candidate, than to vote for a fascist who will only make things even worse, don't they?  isn't it a bit elitist to say working-class people don't understand it is more progressive to vote new labour than vote fascist?  

However, in my area 1300 voted for Labour, and 800 voted for the fascist.  The Labour candidate was old the Labour through and through, lives in the area, and is not a bad counciler and I wouldn't say he was a careerist.  The fascist doesn't live in the area, they have never done anything in the area. Everything you say about building a relationship with the working class, you know like doing grassroots work etc is, it's the opposite way round.  The Labour councillor does stuff, within the confines of the capitalist system, and the fascist does fuck all.  How can you say the fascist vote, is a vote against new Labour neoliberalism and councillors doing nothing in an old Labour fashion, when my local experience doesn't back up your argument?  (I'm going to do some research, on the vote for the Conservatives etc historically.  And try and analyse where the boat is coming from.)

Also, are you really trying to tell me the 800 are more progressive ("the most progressive hate new Labour") than the 1300.  

btw, there are hardly any immigrants in my ward. 

Oh yes, another example which rebuts your analysis.  two wards away from me my friend who used to be an SW member was a candidate for Respect renewal.  Her, and several other SW members have virtually all left SW.    They are involved with many other politicals.  They have also introduced many members of the community to political struggle.  They have been highly active on the streets virtually every week for the last, well since before the Iraq war.  This is a multi ethnic area, with a high Moslem percentage.  You have met me, and you know when I say if you met these 4 ex-SW members  you would be very impressed with their working class and activist credentials, you can guess what they are like.  The Labour councillor she ran against is white, male, new Labour, deputy leader of City Council. Basically they're doing everything you say they should, Respect in a Muslim area, and they still got less votes than the Tory party. LP 1735 CON 673, RR 502.  in my area  Bnp 800 v 1300.




Now the thing is working class people in my area are concerned about the rise of the fascist vote, but are not agreed about the kind of manifesto you would apply.  Now what you and butchers aka napoleon seem to be saying, is that Socialist should ignore this wish to oppose fascism, whilst not sharing a political perspective. What I need to know is, why do we HAVE TO address concerns about the number of immigrants, and have NOT TO address concerns about fascism on a united front basisi?


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## durruti02 (May 15, 2008)

derf said:


> Hope that's OK


 yep thats cool mate


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## The Black Hand (May 15, 2008)

Attica said:


> The following analysis disagrees with the BNP are doing well approach, and is evidence of combined and uneven development of class consciousness. Orthodox politico's can only bluster in the face of real world evidence which disagrees with their pov.
> 
> In most areas the BNP share of the vote was well down on last year, which in itself was down on the previous election, particularly in its traditional heartlands.
> 
> ...



Ho ho ho - no reply to this cogent analysis


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## Louis MacNeice (May 15, 2008)

Attica said:


> Ho ho ho - no reply to this cogent analysis



Cherry picking doesn't equal analysis (cogent or otherwise).


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## The Black Hand (May 16, 2008)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Cherry picking doesn't equal analysis (cogent or otherwise).



These fruit are more frequent than you may imagine, this isn't counting areas such as SUnderland where their vote is going down year on year too. 

But that's your problem as I said, you can explains the ups but not the consistent downs in BNP votes, and so your theory is half baked Yours is not so much Marxism, more like empirical utopianism.


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## durruti02 (May 16, 2008)

Attica said:


> The following analysis disagrees with the BNP are doing well approach, and is evidence of combined and uneven development of class consciousness. Orthodox politico's can only bluster in the face of real world evidence which disagrees with their pov.
> 
> In most areas the BNP share of the vote was well down on last year, which in itself was down on the previous election, particularly in its traditional heartlands.
> 
> ...




in the west midlands there have been splits, as there was nationally, as you rememeber, ( did you not say that was the end of them at one point?) which have also affected Kirklees ( where there is opposition to Griffin) In Burnley i suspect predictably in-effective councillors will push down their vote. In the south east they were totally squeezed by the Tories. They remain a protest party and where they have poreviously done well it is quite likely their voite WILL drop. What is of MORE interest is where they do convert this to councillors and they continue to so so. 

The fact remains their overall vote continues to increae rapidly to levels never before seen in this country and only a fool ( or one uninvolved ) dismisses the affect this has on working class reorganisation


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## The Black Hand (May 16, 2008)

durruti02 said:


> A) The fact remains their overall vote continues to increae rapidly to levels never before seen in this country
> 
> B)and only a fool ( or one uninvolved ) dismisses the affect this has on working class reorganisation



A) How so? Considering their 808K vote in 2004? You haven't demonstrated this at all. They stand in new areas, and get a variety of votes from piss poor to good, and their overall national vote falls as a result of standing outside their bases. Talking of the NE, they stand tester candidates from their base, and they only hoover up votes that were already there. I do not see why this worries you as much. How is this increasing overall in a context where they got 808K in 2004 - they haven't surpassed this.

B) W/c reorganisation of the socks and underpants drawer? How is this directly affecting working class abilities now and today? Tbh the problem is the lack of struggles and the circulation of class struggles, in other words it is a problem of unity rather than division.


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## durruti02 (May 17, 2008)

Attica said:


> A) How so? Considering their 808K vote in 2004? You haven't demonstrated this at all. They stand in new areas, and get a variety of votes from piss poor to good, and their overall national vote falls as a result of standing outside their bases. Talking of the NE, they stand tester candidates from their base, and they only hoover up votes that were already there. I do not see why this worries you as much. How is this increasing overall in a context where they got 808K in 2004 - they haven't surpassed this.
> 
> B) W/c reorganisation of the socks and underpants drawer? How is this directly affecting working class abilities now and today? Tbh the problem is the lack of struggles and the circulation of class struggles, in other words it is a problem of unity rather than division.



a) shakes head .. that 800k was their euro vote .. in local elections in 2004 they got just 200k votes .. how mnay did they get this time? 

b) meaningless


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## Joe Reilly (May 17, 2008)

durruti02 said:


> a) shakes head .. that 800k was their euro vote ..
> 
> Will someone please do the decent thing and put 'General Attica' out of his misery? It's embarassing...snigger...


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## Joe Reilly (May 17, 2008)

durruti02 said:


> a) shakes head .. that 800k was their euro vote .. in local elections in 2004 they got just 200k votes .. how mnay did they get this time?
> 
> 
> 200,000 in London for a start...


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## The Black Hand (May 17, 2008)

durruti02 said:


> a) shakes head .. that 800k was their euro vote .. in local elections in 2004 they got just 200k votes .. how mnay did they get this time?
> 
> b) meaningless



A) DOh!! My point is that they already got shed loads of votes, you are now saying their 2008 council vote is up on the 2004 council vote - absolutely in numbers or by what %? 

SO they stood more candidates and got more votes? So what? The votes were ALREADY THERE as proved by the Euro vote. It is you freaks who need to wake up and smell the coffee a bit more.

B) Only if you consider class struggle to be meaningless.


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## The Black Hand (May 17, 2008)

Joe Reilly;7506178][QUOTE=durruti02 said:


> a) shakes head .. that 800k was their euro vote ..
> 
> Will someone please do the decent thing and put 'General Attica' out of his misery? It's embarassing...snigger...



The only embarresment around here is dum fukwits with parkinsons like you Joe.


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## The Black Hand (May 17, 2008)

Joe Reilly;7506706][QUOTE=durruti02 said:


> a) shakes head .. that 800k was their euro vote .. in local elections in 2004 they got just 200k votes .. how mnay did they get this time?
> 
> 200,000 in London for a start...



Wow. Impressed i am not.


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## The Black Hand (May 18, 2008)

BNP doing well here? Erm. NO!

"Is Barrow in Furness the most left wing town in Britain? Is this town hall the new Smolny? The answer is YES! While the left suffered defeats the SOCIALIST PEOPLES PARTY OF BARROW gained seats as did a local ANTI-ACADEMY SCHOOLS GROUP while the BNP belly flopped. Check out our man on the spot’s analysis at   www.nation-of-duncan.blogspot.com
And they’ve got their own nuclear strike force! Be afraid Mr. Brown...."


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## durruti02 (May 18, 2008)

http://www. bnp. org. uk/20 08/05/knocking-on-doors-is-the-secret-of-our-success/

http://www.b np.o rg.uk/200 8/05/bnp-h ad-good-local-candidates-labour-mp/

some interesting stuff


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## Paul Marsh (May 18, 2008)

Attica said:


> BNP doing well here? Erm. NO!
> 
> "Is Barrow in Furness the most left wing town in Britain? Is this town hall the new Smolny? The answer is YES! While the left suffered defeats the SOCIALIST PEOPLES PARTY OF BARROW gained seats as did a local ANTI-ACADEMY SCHOOLS GROUP while the BNP belly flopped. Check out our man on the spot’s analysis at   www.nation-of-duncan.blogspot.com
> And they’ve got their own nuclear strike force! Be afraid Mr. Brown...."



And in the rest of the blog, Duncan appears to reach conclusions that are the exact opposite of yours. 

http://nation-of-duncan.blogspot.com/2008/05/labours-collapse-and-lefts-failure.html


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## Louis MacNeice (May 18, 2008)

Attica said:


> These fruit are more frequent than you may imagine, this isn't counting areas such as SUnderland where their vote is going down year on year too.
> 
> But that's your problem as I said, you can explains the ups but not the consistent downs in BNP votes, and so your theory is half baked Yours is not so much Marxism, more like empirical utopianism.



Still no analysis, just more of the usual self serving verbiage.


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## The Black Hand (May 18, 2008)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Still no analysis, just more of the usual self serving verbiage.



Au contraire, the analysis is just not to your liking, you prefer garbage to theory, which is wierd for an academic.


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## treelover (May 18, 2008)

You are a crack pot and a pain, I have already told you about my experience of my nephews mates in the NE and their overt support for the BNP. One thing never considered on here is that maybe many of the people who would vote BNP just don't vote, I suspect support for the BNP, etc, is much higher than local voting tallies would indicate.


Imo, bar the party splitting/imploding, it is inevitable that the BNP will at some point control/hold the balance of power in some smaller councils. Perhaps looking at the example of France, where the FN took control of some major Southern Depts, things got nasty, eg. cuts in arts projects, etc, but the world didn't fall in. Its NL and the New Tories who have/ are going to cause the most damage to the UK. When one of the only things that binds us in the Uk, the welfare state, and the NHS unravels and maybe disappears, then imo, that is when the shit hits the fan.

meanwhile, we can look forward to another period of 70's style, 'nazis out', while the left ignores the issues which is creating the ferment.


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## The Black Hand (May 18, 2008)

treelover said:


> You are a crack pot and a pain, I have already told you about my experience of my nephews mates in the NE and their overt support for the BNP. One thing never considered on here is that maybe many of the people who would vote BNP just don't vote, I suspect support for the BNP, etc, is much higher than local voting tallies would indicate.
> 
> 
> Imo, bar the party splitting/imploding, it is inevitable that the BNP will at some point control/hold the balance of power in some smaller councils. Perhaps looking at the example of France, where the FN took control of some major Southern Depts, things got nasty, eg. cuts in arts projects, etc, but the world didn't fall in. Its NL and the New Tories who have/ are going to cause the most damage to the UK. When one of the only things that binds us in the Uk, the welfare state, and the NHS unravels and maybe disappears, then imo, that is when the shit hits the fan.
> ...



Louis' not that bad.


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## The Black Hand (May 18, 2008)

Paul Marsh said:


> And in the rest of the blog, Duncan appears to reach conclusions that are the exact opposite of yours.
> 
> http://nation-of-duncan.blogspot.com/2008/05/labours-collapse-and-lefts-failure.html



I have said that 'the BNP are doing ok for a petite bourgois party', (what has Duncan said which is the opposite of this?) that is a middle of the road assesment. 

Do you think about what I write at all? You as usual, prefer to take an idealised position and project it as my real position. You, and t'others, look at things simplistically because you like nice neat and tidy positions, so you only have a simple binary 'bad v. good', 'doing well V. doing poorly'. This is not real world at all.

On the web here my posts are often opposite to the 'BNP are doing well Brigade' because, and this is an *autonomist political reading of fascism* - if you look at the *totality* they are not doing as well as 'you' would lead us to believe.


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## durruti02 (May 18, 2008)

bnp votes .. no one else seems to be putting them up .. uaf hnh lmhr serchlight from their side ( too many ) and bnp from their side ( not enough!!)   

please those with mathamatical brain help out!  

my off the cuff calculation sees them up overall but down in yorks and black country and obviously up in london ... the most comparable year overall is 2004 .. 2007 was the big year for local council elections so if they are over 290k they DID do well 

Jim you on this


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## Paul Marsh (May 18, 2008)

Attica said:


> Do you think about what I write at all?



Having read your most recent piece on anti-fascism, I think it is more appropriate to ask do _you_ think about what you write at all?


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## treelover (May 19, 2008)

Aye, if i was one of his students I would ask for a rebate!


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## The Black Hand (May 19, 2008)

Paul Marsh said:


> Having read your most recent piece on anti-fascism, I think it is more appropriate to ask do _you_ think about what you write at all?



I'll go and have a look at it if you mean the BNP and local elections piece, I suppose I should edit it


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## The Black Hand (May 19, 2008)

Paul Marsh said:


> Having read your most recent piece on anti-fascism, I think it is more appropriate to ask do _you_ think about what you write at all?



I've read it again (it doesn't need editing) and I think it was worth putting into the public arena, it says things that are new and interesting, and it is building a position. It encourages people to carry on their autonomous practice and to build a better movement beyond group and ideological boundaries.


I read your article in Black Flag and got bored with it ever so early, it's just a repeat of stuff already in public. 

Rather than cut new ground it repeated a lot of stale cliche and its proposals were the usual 'utopian hard working going nowhere' guff. 

Anarchists remaining on their own will, with no relation beyond their purist fetishished groups as normal, get the multitude nowhere. You stay in your ghetto Paul, the new world will be built out of something bigger than that though.


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## The Black Hand (May 19, 2008)

treelover said:


> Aye, if i was one of his students I would ask for a rebate!



you have never read any of my published work!


----------



## The Black Hand (May 19, 2008)

Attica said:


> I have said that 'the BNP are doing ok for a petite bourgois party', (what has Duncan said which is the opposite of this?) that is a middle of the road assesment.
> 
> Do you think about what I write at all? You as usual, prefer to take an idealised position and project it as my real position. You, and t'others, look at things simplistically because you like nice neat and tidy positions, so you only have a simple binary 'bad v. good', 'doing well V. doing poorly'. This is not real world at all.
> 
> On the web here my posts are often opposite to the 'BNP are doing well Brigade' because, and this is an *autonomist political reading of fascism* - if you look at the *totality* they are not doing as well as 'you' would lead us to believe.



Have you any reply Paul?


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## Paul Marsh (May 19, 2008)

Attica said:


> you have never read any of my published work!



Allow me to correct that, by reproducing the following gibberish about the BNP from the much advertised issue 2 of Mayday magazine:



> they have no meaningful political life in public, unlike their predecessor, the NF



The success of the BNP website is sadly a matter of public record, whilst this month alone they trounced the left in the British capital. They have more Councillors than any fascist party in British history, and comfortably more than the rapidly dying left. 



> the Front still look to have a bigger organisation, a different class composition too



No evidence is offered that the BNP has a different class composition than the NF, we are simply expected to take Attica's word for it. Indeed, this looks very similar to the SWP's desperate attempts to argue the BNP's electoral base is middle class. 



> in terms of candidates the BNP are performing averagely for a 'new' party, but even there they can be stupid, barely capable of putting their mark on the form.



I have no idea what this means, but the BNP has been in existence for some 25 years. 

Rather than take quotes out of context, all of the above are taken from the _first column_ of an article that is a bizarre mixture of pompous verbiage, pseudo-academic English and an astonishing lack of knowledge about both fascism and anti-fascism. 

Put simply, Attica has read one article by Nick Griffin on the BNP website. He is arrogant enough to believe he is an expert on the far-right solely on that basis. I doubt he has ever seen a copy of Identity, Voice of Freedom or any internal BNP documents. 
The second motivation for writing the article appears to be the fact that Attica dislikes the IWCA, and wants everyone to know it - so up to speed is he in this field that he repeatedly talks about Red Action as an actually existing political group. Still, at least his ignorance is consistent - he knows as little about the left as he does about the right! 

Whilst the article is tempered by Mayday's disclaimer 





> "The article below is a personal perspective and does not reflect a collective or agreed position within Mayday magazine


 if this is the sort of car crash Mayday wishes to inflict on the rest of the left in their magazine, it is obviously part of the problem, not part of the solution. 

In this case at least, the cry of Mayday really is one of distress............


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## The Black Hand (May 19, 2008)

Paul Marsh said:


> A) Allow me to correct that, by reproducing the following gibberish about the BNP from the much advertised issue 2 of Mayday magazine:
> 
> B) The success of the BNP website is sadly a matter of public record, whilst this month alone they trounced the left in the British capital. They have more Councillors than any fascist party in British history, and comfortably more than the rapidly dying left.
> 
> ...


A)
Your comprehension is totally awful Paul, and you displayed it in your first statement. That quote was aimed at TREELOVER - not U - dimwit. The evidence is clear for all to see. MISTAKE ALERT MISTAKE ALERT!! ho ho hoho.

TO the rest of your diatribe;

B) The 'no meaningful life in public' was referring to their late of presence on a routine basis in the wards in which they stand. It was saying that standing in elections is not enough.
C) I agree, no evidence was offerred - either way - you never supplied any either.

D) 'New' in this case was talking about their contending in democracy and winning or not seats. In terms of history of political parties (Labour, Tory), they are the new kid on the block. That surely is not too much for you to understand?

E) Being wrong has never stopped you before Paul. AS usual you are the one who is full of "pompous verbiage, pseudo-academic English and an astonishing lack of knowledge about both fascism and anti-fascism." As it goes I have read a lot of BNP material, lots from their official website and from the others, I have read their stuff for years from the IRR library so YOU ARE FULL OF BLUSTERING SHITE AGAIN.

F) Yawn - pathetic desperation Paul, as usual you have nothing to say politically. You should have tried a politics/history/economics/Marxism Msc rather than the pathetic one you did which is of no relevance politically. I do not give a toss whether RA have folded or not, everybody knows who they are. 

G) Gibberish.


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## audiotech (May 19, 2008)

Which golf club did they crawl out of? 



> BNP members returned to Buchanan Street at the weekend. Ostensibly there to sell papers, their choice of location suggests they're more interested in provoking confrontation with the non-fascist groups whose regular pitch it is. They left in the back of a police van.
> http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2008/05/399131.html?c=on#c195828


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## Joe Reilly (May 19, 2008)

MC5 said:


> I find it hugely ironic that the people and parties and who insist the BNP 'are constantly looking for confrontation', even though that policy was abandoned by the mid 1990's, are the self-same people and parties who when the BNP _were_ 'constantly looking for confrontation', sought refuge behind police lines and condemned those who did step up to the plate as 'worse than the fascists'. Talk about fucked up.


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## audiotech (May 19, 2008)

Joe Reilly;7514828][QUOTE=MC5 said:


> I find it hugely ironic that the people and parties and who insist the BNP 'are constantly looking for confrontation', even though that policy was abandoned by the mid 1990's, are the self-same people and parties who when the BNP _were_ 'constantly looking for confrontation', sought refuge behind police lines and condemned those who did step up to the plate as 'worse than the fascists'. Talk about fucked up.



Politics is more than hero worship Joseph.

The people I knew never 'sought refuge behind police lines', but do I alway's bang on about it? No.


----------



## Joe Reilly (May 19, 2008)

MC5;7514946][QUOTE=Joe Reilly said:


> Politics is more than hero worship Joseph.
> 
> The people I knew never 'sought refuge behind police lines', but do I alway's bang on about it? No.



Why is it that whenever there is a criticism of the SWP/ANL/UAF on such matters you try and deflect it - not by denying it as the proof is easily attainable - but by personalising it -'_ I_' was big supporter of the republican movement'... _my_ miners support group worked wonders...the poll tax group _I_ was in...'the people_ I _knew never hid behind police lines'...and so on. 

If all the above is true and who can say, it makes it easy to see why you chucked it in, but what is less clear is why having done so, you still defend 'the party', and in doing so display the standard body language of the type of common and garden hack known and hated throughout the world.


----------



## audiotech (May 19, 2008)

Joe Reilly;7515445][QUOTE=MC5 said:


> Why is it that whenever there is a criticism of the SWP/ANL/UAF on such matters you try and deflect it - not by denying it as the proof is easily attainable - but by personalising it -'_ I_' was big supporter of the republican movement'... _my_ miners support group worked wonders...the poll tax group _I_ was in...'the people_ I _knew never hid behind police lines'...and so on.
> 
> If all the above is true and who can say, it makes it easy to see why you chucked it in, but what is less clear is why having done so, you still defend 'the party', and in doing so display the standard body language of the type of common and garden hack known and hated throughout the world.



It is all true. I have lots of experience to pass on and correct any historical inaccuracies that I may come across.

Chucked it in? Ha! I'm working class - the struggle never ends. It takes different paths at different times, depending on circumstances.

Body language? What on a discussion board? Don't make me laugh. Oh, hang on you just have.


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## Joe Reilly (May 19, 2008)

MC5;7515810][QUOTE=Joe Reilly said:


> It is all true. I have lots of experience to pass on and correct any historical inaccuracies that I may come across.
> 
> Chucked it in? Ha! I'm working class - the struggle never ends. It takes different paths at different times, depending on circumstances.
> 
> Body language? What on a discussion board? Don't make me laugh. Oh, hang on you just have.



I was wondering what it was or or who it was the smug pretentious 
 tone of our reply reminded me of? Then it came to me - Attica! (Including the use of icon) 

For all your previous big talk; being working class and so forth its evident your just another lefty wanker utterly unable to answer a straight question. 

I


----------



## The Black Hand (May 19, 2008)

Joe Reilly;7516076][QUOTE=MC5 said:


> I was wondering what it was or or who it was the smug pretentious
> tone of our reply reminded me of? Then it came to me - Attica! (Including the use of icon)
> 
> For all your previous big talk; being working class and so forth its evident your just another *lefty wanker utterly unable to answer a straight question*.
> ...



Mirror mirror on the wall.....


----------



## The Black Hand (May 20, 2008)

The doing well BNP doing poorly with fools as members and activists in Scotland;

BNP members were taken away in a police van 

Around 11:30 on Saturday afternoon, before the full array of groups had set up stalls outside Borders, 4 BNP members marched to the centre of the street, displaying newspapers and looking smug. Two minutes after they arrived, a police car parked 50 yards down the road, strongly suggesting that the BNP had called them in the expectation that they were going to provoke trouble. 

On being outnumbered and surrounded by people objecting, strongly but without violence, to the hatred for sale, the racists showed their true colours. Charlie Baillie, Glasgow organiser first attempted to claim that they are not a Nazi party (but hey, just happy to promote Holocaust-deniers, eh?), then lost his temper and threatened to kill someone. (That seems to confirm rumours we've heard that under the cheap suit he's a mindless thug.) 

Other BNP members present were their Highlands & Islands organiser John Robertson and their MidScotland & Fife organiser, John MacGuire (07913 219640). Seems odd that a group claiming to be concerned about local issues would need to bus in people from outside Glasgow for a simple paper sale. 

Police officers moved them on after they issued death threats. While they claimed to be going to the top of Buchanan St, they went less than 100 yards and carried on. This was obviously unacceptable and this time they were surrounded by an even larger group of people objecting to their presence, this time including shoppers, passers-by and an evangelical preacher. Two vans of police turned up this time, and officers formed a cordon to protect the strong and fearless fascists with hands strangely shaking. Finally they were put into the back of a police van and taken away. 

While this was a pleasing sight, they hadn't been arrested for wasting police time. Throughout the afternoon they had been observed on friendly terms with the police (shades of Richard Barnbrook on the Police Federation march?) and their choice of location strongly suggests that this was what their plan was from the start. The party who if in power would run the country as a totalitarian police state like to claim that they have as much right to be on the street as the groups they'd send to death camps. The police evidently agree. The challenge for groups maintaining the "no platform for fascists" policy (which the BNP is desperate to overturn) is this: how do they counter the BNP's attempts to make publicity out of the public humiliation? To stop them from selling their papers whilst denying their attempts at martyrdom requires some creative thinking.


----------



## JimPage (May 20, 2008)

Attica said:


> The following analysis disagrees with the BNP are doing well approach, and is evidence of combined and uneven development of class consciousness. Orthodox politico's can only bluster in the face of real world evidence which disagrees with their pov.
> 
> In most areas the BNP share of the vote was well down on last year, which in itself was down on the previous election, particularly in its traditional heartlands.
> 
> ...



To answer you specifically, Sandwell, Dudley, Eppinga and  Burnley, granted, their vote went down. The local BNP didnt campaign in a meaningful way for Kirkless - working instead to get Colin Auty elected as BNP Chairman

They got elected in Thurrock and fought full a slate in Broxbourne so dotn accept what you say there

Now, any thoughts on the London result, which certain antifascists dont seem to have yet accepted has happenned?


----------



## JimPage (May 20, 2008)

Attica said:


> A) . How is this increasing overall in a context where they got 808K in 2004 - they haven't surpassed this.



simply because this was an euro-election covering all of england, scotland and wales- and there has not been a similar election since- next one may 2009


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## audiotech (May 20, 2008)

Joe Reilly said:


> For all your previous big talk; being working class and so forth its evident your just another lefty wanker utterly unable to answer a straight question.



There was no question.


----------



## The Black Hand (May 20, 2008)

JimPage said:


> simply because this was an euro-election covering all of england, scotland and wales- and there has not been a similar election since- next one may 2009



My point is that I know the votes came from all over - and the council votes are those same people. 

To crow on that the BNP vote is going up all the time is not true imho cos we have already had the vote. Do you see what I mean?

If it is true, and the bnp vote is going up, how many votes are the BNP on course to get in 2009?


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## The Black Hand (May 20, 2008)

JimPage said:


> To answer you specifically, Sandwell, Dudley, Eppinga and  Burnley, granted, their vote went down. The local BNP didnt campaign in a meaningful way for Kirkless - working instead to get Colin Auty elected as BNP Chairman
> 
> They got elected in Thurrock and fought full a slate in Broxbourne so dotn accept what you say there
> 
> Now, any thoughts on the London result, which certain antifascists dont seem to have yet accepted has happenned?



I agree with you on Broxbourne - its up 2% from approx 13% to approx 15% - apologies for the fuck up. 

Goes to check others....


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## The Black Hand (May 20, 2008)

After a look at Thurrock I can confidently predict that the BNP vote has fallen from 2007, to the 21.3% of 2008 (the last figure I have revised downwards by .1%).

Proper stats to follow in a bit.


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## audiotech (May 20, 2008)

Attica said:
			
		

> Mirror, mirror on the wall....


----------



## The Black Hand (May 20, 2008)

Why do you post pictures of yourself?


----------



## The Black Hand (May 20, 2008)

JimPage said:


> They got elected in Thurrock... so dotn accept what you say there
> 
> Now, any thoughts on the London result, which certain antifascists dont seem to have yet accepted has happenned?



I have done the complete calculations for Thurrock now.

2007 BNP vote 25.40% of approx turnout of 30%. 7149 BNP votes cast out of 28143.

2008 - 21.3% 

*So that's down 4%* even with a BNP councillor for the first time in this area.

If we look at the IWCA V. BNP head to head in Standford East (Thurrock) we get the following;

2007 IWCA 144 votes - BNP 505
2008 IWCA 98 votes - BNP 344

Both votes went down, the IWCA vote down by approx 33%, the BNP vote down approx 32%. What does this tell us? 

As for London I do not have the time to number crunch these, but I hope to. If you note I have spread stats on this thread as a way to help others compute their own analysis.


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## audiotech (May 20, 2008)

Attica said:


> Both votes went down, the IWCA vote down by approx 33%, the BNP vote down approx 32%. What does this tell us?



That the 'new decent working class movement' has collapsed at the first hurdle?


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## The Black Hand (May 20, 2008)

MC5 said:


> That the 'new decent working class movement' has collapsed at the first hurdle?



Well it shows they are regarded as not so different to the BNP by people... they 'are just another party'...


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## The Black Hand (May 20, 2008)

Sunderland BNP Vote analysis.

2007 BNP 7653 total votes out of 72117 = vote share of 10.6134%

2008 BNP 7540 total votes out of 73799 = vote share of 10.2169%

Going down again, year on year. Though I must add - some wards show dramatic improvements and some reductions. It clearly is affected by the level of campaigning (or not) in each ward.


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## The Black Hand (May 21, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Rochester South and Horsted ward - Medway, yesterday:
> 
> Conservative 	1,847
> The Green Party 	104
> ...



Total votes 3794 according to you. I am going to add 2 votes to the total cos I bet a couple were spoilt. So that's 3796.

Which gives a BNP vote of 6.77%. Even if were do not add those 2 votes I decided to, we get 6.77%. Either way - it's crap.


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## The Black Hand (May 22, 2008)

Attica said:


> Sunderland BNP Vote analysis.
> 
> 2007 BNP 7653 total votes out of 72117 = vote share of 10.6134%
> 
> ...



Do the anti fascists who number crunch want to share the workload around? I have put on line checkable stat analysis, it seems to me that we can save each other time and do something more useful if we pool the stat analysis. As I have begun to on this site. I may have already replicated work done, i don't know. We could then try to think about other work which could be done rather than flog ourselves...


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## durruti02 (May 23, 2008)

vote in north west up, and up the most in the last 5 years, taking into account number of candidates.  

42,479 from 121 candidates in  2008
36,501 from 117                     2007
23,000 from  53                      2006
28,000 from  56                      2004
22,000 from  44                      2003

(2008 my reckoning from HnH .. all others UAF )


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## The Black Hand (May 25, 2008)

durruti02 said:


> vote in north west up, and up the most in the last 5 years, taking into account number of candidates.
> 
> 42,479 from 121 candidates in  2008 _= 351 votes per candidate_
> 36,501 from 117                     2007 _= 311.97 votes per candidate_
> ...



I have added some numbers above in italics. 

*Clearly the picture is NOT as clear as you portray.* 

High votes initially for 2 years, then significant decline for 2 years, then slight pick up cos they stabilised their vote and halted the dramatic decline.


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## durruti02 (May 25, 2008)

Attica said:


> I have added some numbers above in italics.
> 
> *Clearly the picture is NOT as clear as you portray.*
> 
> High votes initially for 2 years, then significant decline for 2 years, then slight pick up cos they stabilised their vote and halted the dramatic decline.



attica NO one but you is saying things are clear .. i certainly am not .. it is only you on here who is trying to make the figures back your prejudiced myopic and wrong analysis instead of studying the figures to come up with an analysis. 

I, and no others that i can see on here, is saying are saying the BNP are   doing brilliantly - but it is clear they are continining to expand both in terms of area councillors and overall vote, and no amount of huffing and puffing and whining from you can change that 

e.g. dramatic decline .. what idiocy .. i presume you mean when they expanded from 53 candidates to 117 and their sov went down???? well of course   less people canvassing, less door to door etc etc etc been seen a million times .. 

so please learn a little before you comment again on this whole process because your school boy errors are frankly embarressing and tbh disruptive to a proper analysis and hence response 

p.s. so you are a minor party ( riven by splits and as being politically obnoxious got all the other parties and media attacking you ) what would you prefer ..a or b? 

a)  42,479 votes from 121 candidates    with 351   votes per candidate
b)  22,000 votes from  44 candidates     with 500   votes per candidate


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## The Black Hand (May 25, 2008)

Au contraire Durty2 - I never said things 'are clear'. I think you have 'prejeudiced and myopic' theory and practice. I ground my views in the real world, from grounded theory and practice, and proper analysis of voting trends. You as I said, have adopted an apriori 'bnp worship position' - for you the BNP are 'always on the up and are always doing well';

First off - you are off the mark with your analysis of the significance of the BNP. THeir 500 votes at their high point was NOT deserved, reflected no serious changes or a social base- but was based on racist hype, in the context of old prejeudices of a declining imperial power. All it did was encourage and recruit some of the apolitical conservative racist right who normally stumble along, who mouth 'coon' when they see black people. 

Hence you (independent old leftists - iwca etc) lot went OTT about how well they were doing. This misreading left you subequently unable to acknowledge let alone explain their decline in 2006/7/8.

How would you describe their decline from a vote per candidate total of 500, down to 311.9 votes then. I called it a 'dramatic decline' because proportionately it is for a BNP supposedly 'on the up'!! It is a decline of 37.606% in their vote - significant in everybodies book except you lot for some reason.  

That sort of vote crisis would provoke huge trauma in large parties - it is just that you lot and Griffin could help to portray the vote tumble as them 'spreading', and so help to NOT provoke a larger trauma for the bnp.

I long ago said, and first btw, that is is you lot who bluster when real results go against your perspective. No whining from me pal and it is you who huff and puff when confronted by ideas which do not fit your preconceived notions of ultra left politics. 

What is seriously 'embarrassing' is being unable to spell embarrassing correctly, you are whinging, whinging, huffing and making school boy  errors just like you accuse me of doing.

What is pathetic is the ultra left being unable to engage with serious Marxist analysis.

As for your ps question - do you think that perhaps it is possible that they have only recruited elements already existing with conservative imperial Britain, so that their 'growth' has been at the expense of the social constituencies they would need to grow any further? 

So that they have recruited 'old stylee racists' - which seems probable given their coverage in the media. That they have recruited not because of, but in spite of these politics? They have got bigger _organisationally_, but at the expense of a large import into 'the general public'. Certainly it is a reading I think is worth exploring.


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## TremulousTetra (May 25, 2008)

have just noticed round my area, a large increase in the number of graffiti swastikas with the word Nazi underneath, since the BNP stood.  I must go out and lecture these people about how it is politically incorrect to label fascists Nazi.


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## Meltingpot (May 25, 2008)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> have just noticed round my area, a large increase in the number of graffiti swastikas with the word Nazi underneath, since the BNP stood.  I must go out and lecture these people about how it is politically incorrect to label fascists Nazi.



Well, Nazis were fascists but not all fascists were Nazis (Mussolini wasn't, for instance). Officially I don't believe the BNP allows overt Nazis (or at least members of the N9S) to join any more but I suspect that rule is quietly flouted.


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## durruti02 (May 26, 2008)

Attica said:


> I ground my views in the real world, from grounded theory and practice, and proper analysis of voting trends. You as I said, have adopted an apriori 'bnp worship position' - for you the BNP are 'always on the up and are always doing well';



you are too then a liar and a smear artist - you have already admitteded you were, disgracefully, NOT working from the stats, were NOT using the actual election results, as i and others have been, 

and then your smear artist prejudice comes in, that assumes comment on the dangerous reality of a nationally increasing vote/spread for the scum of the BNP is some sort of 'bnp worship' .. sad 

and this is 'autonomous marxism' LOL 

and you think "What is seriously 'embarrassing' is being unable to spell embarrassing correctly" FFS


----------



## durruti02 (May 26, 2008)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> Durrito, I wrote this a couple of days ago in response to one of your posts, but can't find it now.  I think you ask me a question like, "what are you going to do, ask the most progressive people opposed to new Labour to vote new Labour"?
> 
> 1) Sure why not?  I don't understand your logic.  It is perfectly possible for the progressive members of the working class to be against new Labour, whilst being against fascism as even worse.  The majority accept, that even where you have a openly new Labour candidate, it is more progressive to vote for the new Labour candidate, than to vote for a fascist who will only make things even worse, don't they?  isn't it a bit elitist to say working-class people don't understand it is more progressive to vote new labour than vote fascist?
> 
> ...



hi rmp ..sorry for delay 

1) ok yes your logic is fine but where does it get you? ok we want to do away with the BNP .. so where does it come from? neo liberalism as a combination of reaction and false radicalism .. so the attck HAS to be on neo liberlaism surely??  

3) sure the lab guy may be ok .. but most people vote on national issues and perceptions .. local candidates unless exceptional almost always get blown away by the bigger picture 

2) that is a BIG BNP vote mate ..

4) i nor anyone else on here have not said it is progressive to vote BNP .. there WILL be radical elements in the mix though - complaint about loss of control power etc - but generally it is a frustrated reactionary shout - the issue is that WE should be getting / directing that anger 

5) Respects large votes in elections have been afaik almost entirely directed by community / mosque leaders .. i can only assume that in this ward this support was NOT forthcoming for whatever reason. tbh i am more interested in RR where like Bristol i understand they are standing simply on a socialist community platform 

6) no i do NOT say we should not be concerned .. exactly the opposite .. where i disagree is that i say to destroy an illness we must target the cause NOT the symptom .. so yes of course we campaign AGAINST the bnp but no more in fact LESS than we must campignn against the issues that create them - housing, commmunity issues, asb, powerlessness, etc etc to say to people that labour and elections is any solution will further alienate and encourage cycnicism


out of interest what was the anti bnp campign like?


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## TremulousTetra (May 26, 2008)

durruti02 said:


> hi rmp ..sorry for delay
> 
> 1) ok yes your logic is fine but where does it get you? ok we want to do away with the BNP .. so where does it come from? neo liberalism as a combination of reaction and false radicalism .. so the attck HAS to be on neo liberlaism surely??
> 
> ...


You can believe what you want about the Respect candidate and that old Labour candidate, but what I was trying to get across to you was, these candidates are following exactly the kind of principles you are advocating as a method to building a proper movement.  Especially the Respect candidate, has been completely rooted in the area for at least five years, on the streets every week virtually, with broad alliance of politicals and non-politicals, raising issues pertinent to the local community (local and national issues).  The BNP got a "big vote " and have done absolutely bugger all to get on that vote.  My simple point is, it is not because "socialists" don'tget involved in issues that people are interested in that the left is so small, not winning elections, not building rank-and-file organisation.  It is far more complicated than that.  The vote for the fascists is much simpler, all the main political parties, the media, and some of the left are acting as recruiting sergeants,whilst the BNP are doing everything they can to conceal their Fascism.

Fascism is not a product of neoliberalism.  Fascism exist in the 1930s.  Fascism will always exist as long as there is capitalism.  Fascist supporters have never been worn away away from Fascism by appeasing fascist demands, you turn them away from the movement of despair, by creating a movement of hope.  And it is this key point where I think you have got argument completely the wrong way round, you don't start by concentrating on the opinions and demands of the people who vote fascist, you build that movement of hope from the most progressive elements in society.  Defending the NHS in the here in now, defending council housing here in now, and defending bourgeois democracy from Fascism, is part of building that movement.

"so yes of course we campaign AGAINST the bnp".  How?

PS.  The anti-BNP campaign was non-existent.


----------



## durruti02 (May 27, 2008)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> You can believe what you want about the Respect candidate and that old Labour candidate, but what I was trying to get across to you was, these candidates are following exactly the kind of principles you are advocating as a method to building a proper movement.  Especially the Respect candidate, has been completely rooted in the area for at least five years, on the streets every week virtually, with broad alliance of politicals and non-politicals, raising issues pertinent to the local community (local and national issues).  The BNP got a "big vote " and have done absolutely bugger all to get on that vote.  My simple point is, it is not because "socialists" don'tget involved in issues that people are interested in that the left is so small, not winning elections, not building rank-and-file organisation.  It is far more complicated than that.  The vote for the fascists is much simpler, all the main political parties, the media, and some of the left are acting as recruiting sergeants,whilst the BNP are doing everything they can to conceal their Fascism.
> 
> Fascism is not a product of neoliberalism.  Fascism exist in the 1930s.  Fascism will always exist as long as there is capitalism.  Fascist supporters have never been worn away away from Fascism by appeasing fascist demands, you turn them away from the movement of despair, by creating a movement of hope.  And it is this key point where I think you have got argument completely the wrong way round, you don't start by concentrating on the opinions and demands of the people who vote fascist, you build that movement of hope from the most progressive elements in society.  Defending the NHS in the here in now, defending council housing here in now, and defending bourgeois democracy from Fascism, is part of building that movement.
> 
> ...



HI rmp i think you are getting what i say entirely the wrong way around. I do not think we should "concentrat[e] on the opinions and demands of the people who vote fascist" .. where do i say that?? what i say is that the movement of people toward the bnp exposes what the left have forgotten .. the fundamental importance and need of community, unambiguous support for the w/c wherever they are, whatever they think, whatever culture they come from, and the need to attack those in power. 

Yes i agree we need to be positive and that is what i do in my daily political activity .. but as i said before if you are NOT honest about what neo liberalism is doing on all levels, as e.g. the left are not re immigration, the rest of what you say will be and is being ignored. 

specifically on your post i appreciate what you say re the Respect candidate .. but you have ignored my ppoint that Respect votes have ALWAYS been down to community leader support. I am sure they did do a very good campaign .. i can also guarantee they concentrated on muslim support. Why did they not stand in teh same seat as the BNP did????

i think you also ignored my point that there WILL be good labour candidates but they will often get blown aways by their label 

yes we agree that fascism is a product of capitalism .. capitalism in crisis as a threat and possibility of the new order, as a division in the w/c and as a distraction. It is both conservative and reactionary AND anti capitalist in a right wing sense. 

BUT Anti fascism can NOT make a 'movement of hope' ( which we all agree we need) when all it CAN do, as you say, is to defend "bourgeois democracy" .. and that fundamentally means defending the status quo .. means defending the very conditions that ferment fascism in the first place.  

No the BNP are a distraction pure and simple .. their interest to me is that they illustrate how the left have lost contact almost entirely with the w/c and that they now mimic dishonestly some of the tactics which the left should be using. 

WE allow a new nastier Tory govt in at our peril .. we made the same mistake in 79 .. are we to repeat it??


----------



## durruti02 (May 27, 2008)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> "so yes of course we campaign AGAINST the bnp".  How?
> 
> PS.  The anti-BNP campaign was non-existent.



How?? .. by creating a "a movement of hope" 


no campaign?? i am suprised .. i though mancs/lancs was a hot bed of UAF etc??


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## Random (May 27, 2008)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> Fascism is not a product of neoliberalism.  Fascism exist in the 1930s.  Fascism will always exist as long as there is capitalism....Defending the NHS in the here in now, defending council housing here in now, and defending bourgeois democracy from Fascism, is part of building that movement.



You're stuck in the past, RMP3.  What we're dealing here is not 'fascism' but rather a modern development partly descended from it - European extreme nationalism.  These parties exist within the system, rather than against it, and feed off modern concerns about the end of the welfare and jobs that we've come to have since WW2.  As such, supporting the current neo-liberlal parties because you think they want to 'smash bourgeois democracy' just increases the space for the nationalists.


----------



## LLETSA (May 27, 2008)

Random said:


> You're stuck in the past, RMP3.  What we're dealing here is not 'fascism' but rather a modern development partly descended from it - European extreme nationalism.  These parties exist within the system, rather than against it, and feed off modern concerns about the end of the welfare and jobs that we've come to have since WW2.  As such, supporting the current neo-liberlal parties because you think they want to 'smash bourgeois democracy' just increases the space for the nationalists.





Even if they did want to do it, it's beyond the power of even the strongest 'Euronationalist' party to smash bourgeois democracy. 

The left's problem is that it still lives in an era of mass revolutionary movements and fascist backlash (or the potential for them.) Neither are any longer possible.


----------



## TremulousTetra (May 27, 2008)

Random said:


> You're stuck in the past, RMP3.  What we're dealing here is not 'fascism' but rather a modern development partly descended from it - European extreme nationalism.  These parties exist within the system, rather than against it, and feed off modern concerns about the end of the welfare and jobs that we've come to have since WW2.  As such, supporting the current neo-liberlal parties because you think they want to 'smash bourgeois democracy' just increases the space for the nationalists.


so you think a proposal to nationalise all industries with more than 80 employees doesn't challenge the current status quo? you think the claim to be "classless", against organised labour and big business does not reflect the ideology of the National Socialists, and indeed griffins claim to be a true National Socialist is a fabrication?

for me to properly understand what you're explaining to me, you need to explain a couple of things.  By the system, do you mean the capitalist system of the class system?  For it could be argued Hitler challenged neither after 1935, whilst National Socialism challenged both prior to 1935.  how does the Nazi party is feeding off "modern concerns" of its time, differ to what the bnp are doing today?


----------



## TremulousTetra (May 27, 2008)

LLETSA said:


> Even if they did want to do it, it's beyond the power of even the strongest 'Euronationalist' party to smash bourgeois democracy.


there are no circumstances under which the capitalists would love to see the powers of organised workers reduced even further?  economic depression is no longer possible?

do you think they reduction of civil liberties under both Conservative and Labour governments a illusion?


> The left's problem is that it still lives in an era of mass revolutionary movements and fascist backlash (or the potential for them.) Neither are any longer possible.


what is your position? fukuyamas, "we are at the end of history"?  10,000 years of experience of class society is now threw out of the window?

that's a pretty bold statement.  Do you have any logic to back that argument up?


----------



## TremulousTetra (May 27, 2008)

durruti02 said:


> HI rmp i think you are getting what i say entirely the wrong way around. I do not think we should "concentrat[e] on the opinions and demands of the people who vote fascist" .. where do i say that?? what i say is that the movement of people toward the bnp exposes what the left have forgotten .. the fundamental importance and need of community, unambiguous support for the w/c wherever they are, whatever they think, whatever culture they come from, and the need to attack those in power.
> 
> Yes i agree we need to be positive and that is what i do in my daily political activity .. but as i said before if you are NOT honest about what neo liberalism is doing on all levels, as e.g. the left are not re immigration, the rest of what you say will be and is being ignored.
> 
> ...


You concentrate on the opinions and demands of the people who vote fascist, when you concentrate on immigration, in the WAY you do.  Time and time and time and time again.  And whilst I support the working class whatever they think, I do not support whatever they think.  If they think eg gays should be shot, I won't support that, etc.

And the idea that the fascists mimicking the left it's something new, is wrong.  Why do you think the National Socialist party had such a name.  In my opinion you don't seem to understand why fascism is described as a middle-class ideology.  Sure, numerical analysis of the Nazi party would back up that label, but it is not absolutely essential.  It is the nature of the ideology, opposed to big business and organised labour, which makes it middle-class.  It is honestly opposed to both, because it is jealous of and suffers from both.  That's why it can be nationalist,,,, and Socialist.  

I did ignore your point about respect votes always being based upon community leader support, because that viewpoint was clearly ignorant of the facts where I live.  It was clearly ignorant of the Moslem community where I live.  It was clearly ignorant of the politicals involved in the respect campaign where I live.  You have to be clear here, these are people who have left SW for community-based politics.  These people have moved away from my style of politics, to your style of politics.  These are people I disagree with politically, but I would still say in many ways these people are amongst the best politicals I've ever met.  And this is where I fundamentally disagree with you.  These people have moved to your style of politics, and they are still failing.  The BNP does not imply your style of politics in my area, and they are succeeding.  You come across as seeming to think the whole problem is socialists,,,, Socialists not fighting in the right fight.  If only socialists had pursued, or would pursue, the right strategy everything would be fine.  That is not the case.  The UK left has fell foul of far bigger forces than wrong strategy.  

Defending the local hospital cannot build a revolution of hope.  Fighting for defend wages cannot build a revolution of hope.  Fighting defend Council housing cannot build a revolution of hope.  And defending what you've got, from fascism that would make it worse, cannot build a revolution of hope.  But winning victories in all those areas, CAN begin to build such a movement.

At the end of the day and the emancipation of the working class has to be the act of the working class.  None of us revolutionaries can do it for them.  The history of all hitherto existing society, is a history of class struggle.  Classes have always struggled, and have only ever achieved one of two ends, social revolution of the common ruin of the contending classes.  At the end of the day I believe the working class has two choices socialism or barbarism.  We can argue for the former, but only they can deliver it.


----------



## LLETSA (May 27, 2008)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> there are no circumstances under which the capitalists would love to see the powers of organised workers reduced even further?  economic depression is no longer possible?
> 
> do you think they reduction of civil liberties under both Conservative and Labour governments a illusion?
> 
> ...




Haven't you noticed that the power of organised workers has been steadily reduced right across the western world for the past generation without even a whiff of fascism? 

What has the erosion of civil liberties by governments of the mainstream parties got to do with the possibility of fascism?

While class society is very much still with us, it by no means follows that the politics of the last century are destined to continue pretty much unaltered. Many of the conditions that gave rise to mass revolutionary movements and fascist reaction are now absent. Amazing how the Fukuyama word surfaces every time somebody points out that we are no longer living in the 1930s or 1970s.


----------



## LLETSA (May 28, 2008)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> so you think a proposal to nationalise all industries with more than 80 employees doesn't challenge the current status quo? you think the claim to be "classless", against organised labour and big business does not reflect the ideology of the National Socialists, and indeed griffins claim to be a true National Socialist is a fabrication?
> 
> for me to properly understand what you're explaining to me, you need to explain a couple of things.  By the system, do you mean the capitalist system of the class system?  For it could be argued Hitler challenged neither after 1935, whilst National Socialism challenged both prior to 1935.  how does the Nazi party is feeding off "modern concerns" of its time, differ to what the bnp are doing today?




The main difference is that, unlike the Nazis, the BNP will never come to power. And they know it.


----------



## durruti02 (May 28, 2008)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> You concentrate on the opinions and demands of the people who vote fascist, when you concentrate on immigration, in the WAY you do.  Time and time and time and time again.  And whilst I support the working class whatever they think, I do not support whatever they think.  If they think eg gays should be shot, I won't support that, etc.
> 
> And the idea that the fascists mimicking the left it's something new, is wrong.  Why do you think the National Socialist party had such a name.  In my opinion you don't seem to understand why fascism is described as a middle-class ideology.  Sure, numerical analysis of the Nazi party would back up that label, but it is not absolutely essential.  It is the nature of the ideology, opposed to big business and organised labour, which makes it middle-class.  It is honestly opposed to both, because it is jealous of and suffers from both.  That's why it can be nationalist,,,, and Socialist.
> 
> ...



we'll have to disagree about the firstst stuff cos i just do not recognize your criticism .. when i would raise immigration it would specifically be to attack the idea that immigrants are to blame or that race is an issue .. which is what the BNP claim .. but to show how wasp bosses are using us all and only  by unity can we succeed .. but to ignore the subject absolutely as the sw do is insane 

yes i accept that fascism has always used radicalism even though it is as you say a m/c ideology .. but to ignore the change of tactics from the fasc from street demos from the 4ts thru to the 9ts to the door to door srategy fo now is imho very nieve .. yes it is other material circumstances that have been fundamental but without this change i am not sure they would have gained

i am at a loss to entitely comment on where you live for obvious reasons and i respect what you say .. i am not sure HOW i am to NOT be ignorent of the details unless you supply them! but i think you have to an extent ignored my possible explanations  .. i also suspect that maybe there is MORE bnp activity than you realise .. this has been reported from other areas .. that is part of their change ... they have gone off the radar compared to the old street fascism


----------



## d.a.s.h (May 28, 2008)

LLETSA said:


> The main difference is that, unlike the Nazis, the BNP will never come to power. And they know it.



Maybe the more intelligent and lucid members have some acceptance of that, in that they see the task in the here and now as establishing a durable base which can take advantage of some crisis decades in the future (peak oil seems to be of  some interest to them).

But there are plenty of loons on the net talking about 'When we have a BNP government'. Fringe political groups always attract more than their share of people who bend perceptions of reality to fit in with personal fantasies of doing mighty deeds, sorting out those they don't like and so on.


----------



## audiotech (May 28, 2008)

LLETSA said:


> The main difference is that, unlike the Nazis, the BNP will never come to power. And they know it.



Some are predicting that the BNP will hold the balance of power in some local councils though - Stoke for example.



> Stoke-on-Trent used to be a Labour stronghold, but now it has nine BNP councillors. Some fear that the far-right party could be running the town hall by 2011. Nearly 50% of Bentilee's residents don't work; most, like Oldcroft, are "on the sick", as locals say. He has a visibly painful back complaint, but is more concerned about housing. His 24-year-old daughter lives at home and is still waiting for a council house. Immigrants, he claims, always seem to get set up with houses. "You can't park your car and there are arguments here and arguments there. We'll soon be like Bradford. People have got to listen to our views."



This despite:



> Like the other large estates that have become far-right strongholds in Stoke, Bentilee residents are overwhelmingly white. Census records show just 1.9% of the population is from black and ethnic minority communities.



And:



> One of their [BNP] proposals is cutting funding to the Citizens Advice Bureau - an organisation that helps the most in need across Stoke-on-Trent. To date I haven't heard one policy from the BNP that will improve the lives of ordinary people.



And still they prosper?

Here's a way to maybe reduce their influence?



> If there was a serious, union-based alternative to Labour with roots in the community that would see BNP support fall away quite dramatically.



The warning is that it is a step "into the darkness" and those who will suffer will be the people of Stoke-on-Trent."

Source.


----------



## TremulousTetra (May 28, 2008)

LLETSA said:


> The main difference is that, unlike the Nazis, the BNP will never come to power. And they know it.


that's what they said about Hitler.


----------



## TremulousTetra (May 28, 2008)

LLETSA said:


> Haven't you noticed that the power of organised workers has been steadily reduced right across the western world for the past generation without even a whiff of fascism?
> 
> What has the erosion of civil liberties by governments of the mainstream parties got to do with the possibility of fascism?
> 
> While class society is very much still with us, it by no means follows that the politics of the last century are destined to continue pretty much unaltered. Many of the conditions that gave rise to mass revolutionary movements and fascist reaction are now absent. Amazing how the Fukuyama word surfaces every time somebody points out that we are no longer living in the 1930s or 1970s.


whilst you accept class society remains with us, you need to explain 1. why class struggle will cease, or 2. what other forms class struggle will take, for your comments to make any sense.

just out of interest, can you think of any society that has ever existed where those who control the means of production, haven't controlled society?


----------



## LLETSA (May 28, 2008)

MC5 said:


> Some are predicting that the BNP will hold the balance of power in some local councils though - Stoke for example.





Controlling Stoke council is hardly the Fourth Reich, however.


----------



## LLETSA (May 28, 2008)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> that's what they said about Hitler.





They did indeed. In a vastly different time and context. 

Furthermore, Griffin is not Hitler. 

This is not the threat the BNP represents.


----------



## LLETSA (May 28, 2008)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> whilst you accept class society remains with us, you need to explain 1. why class struggle will cease, or 2. what other forms class struggle will take, for your comments to make any sense.
> 
> just out of interest, can you think of any society that has ever existed where those who control the means of production, haven't controlled society?





Who said anything about class struggle ceasing? I didn't. As long as class society exists how can there not be class struggle? We should not assume that class struggle necessarily leads anywhere though. At the moment it looks likely that, as long as capitalism continues to function it will simply go on, more intense at some times and in some places than in others, without leading to revolution.


----------



## audiotech (May 28, 2008)

LLETSA said:


> Controlling Stoke council is hardly the Fourth Reich, however.



So far it is only you who has brought up the subject of a "Fourth Reich". You might want to elaborate on the however, however?


----------



## The39thStep (May 28, 2008)

I get the feeling that whatever Griffins strategy for many on here the response is always the same:

A musical event
Call them fascist or Nazis
Vote anyone but the BNP
No platform

Throw in a few quotes from Trotsky, the Spanish Civil war and Cable Street.


----------



## TremulousTetra (May 28, 2008)

LLETSA said:


> Who said anything about class struggle ceasing? I didn't. As long as class society exists how can there not be class struggle? We should not assume that class struggle necessarily leads anywhere though. At the moment it looks likely that, as long as capitalism continues to function it will simply go on, more intense at some times and in some places than in others, without leading to revolution.


why didn't you just say that in the first place?  A perfectly reasonable position, I agree with.  


I cannot see a revolution immanent either, but then again that's is what Lenin said in 1916.

so what happens when capitalism ceases to function, when the ruling class can no longer rule in the same way, and the working class are no longer prepared to be ruled in the same way?  you believe there could be a revolution then?


----------



## LLETSA (May 29, 2008)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> why didn't you just say that in the first place?  A perfectly reasonable position, I agree with.
> 
> 
> I cannot see a revolution immanent either, but then again that's is what Lenin said in 1916.
> ...





I didn't say it in the first place as I was talking of a seperate subject, if a related one.

This is not the Russian empire in 1916, as you might have noticed.

When capitalism ceases to function etc we will see what happens. It's unlikely to be the same as what happened in the past for reasons which are more than obvious.


----------



## TremulousTetra (May 30, 2008)

LLETSA said:


> When capitalism ceases to function etc we will see what happens. It's unlikely to be the same as what happened in the past for reasons which are more than obvious.


The problem is the happenings of the 1920s and 30s, the withholding of labour (strikes) and mass demonstrations over throwing regimes, has happened time and time and time again.  What about the happenings of the overthrow of the USSR, can they repeat themselves?  I just don't see how you can say those type of events are no longer possible.  And if they are possible, revolutions of hope, why not revolutions of despair (Fascism)?


----------



## TremulousTetra (May 30, 2008)

The39thStep said:


> I get the feeling that whatever Griffins strategy for many on here the response is always the same:
> 
> A musical event
> Call them fascist or Nazis
> ...


so what would you suggest should be done instead?


----------



## LLETSA (May 30, 2008)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> The problem is the happenings of the 1920s and 30s, the withholding of labour (strikes) and mass demonstrations over throwing regimes, has happened time and time and time again.  What about the happenings of the overthrow of the USSR, can they repeat themselves?  I just don't see how you can say those type of events are no longer possible.  And if they are possible, revolutions of hope, why not revolutions of despair (Fascism)?






This post is incoherent. How can you have the overthrow of the USSR (an anti-socialist revolution despite the nature of the Soviet Union) when the USSR doesn't exist? 

I never said that such events are impossible, just that they are less likely now due to the drastic ways in which society has changed.


----------



## durruti02 (May 31, 2008)

LLETSA said:


> This post is incoherent. How can you have the overthrow of the USSR (an anti-socialist revolution despite the nature of the Soviet Union) when the USSR doesn't exist?
> 
> I never said that such events are impossible, just that they are less likely now due to the drastic ways in which society has changed.



while i undestand where you are coming from actually there is a strong counter argumement

- communication ( internet etc) makes a global revolution more practical 
- advances in technology make a revolution more likely to survive
- the ecologocal crisis makes a revolution more (!) neccessary 
- education makes a backward reaction less likely


----------



## TremulousTetra (May 31, 2008)

LLETSA said:


> This post is incoherent. How can you have the overthrow of the USSR (an anti-socialist revolution despite the nature of the Soviet Union) when the USSR doesn't exist?
> 
> I never said that such events are impossible, just that they are less likely now due to the drastic ways in which society has changed.


your main thesis was that the tactics employed in the 1920s and 30s to overthrow states could not be repeated because we do not live in the 1920s and 30s, and that fascism couldn't come about for similar reasons.  Now what I am saying, is that fundamentally society remains the same, it is a class society.  Whilst history will never exactly repeat itself, there ARE many methods of struggle which are bound to repeat themselves, because they fit the class nature of this society.  Political and economic crisis is inherent in the capitalist system, as is struggle.  hence the example of the USSR, where methods of struggle used in the 1920s and 30s were redeployed in a later age.

OH yes, add to the list of Durrito the fact that working class has only actually become a majority in recent times.  at the time of the Russian Revolution, the working class was a minority.


----------



## LLETSA (May 31, 2008)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> your main thesis was that the tactics employed in the 1920s and 30s to overthrow states could not be repeated because we do not live in the 1920s and 30s, and that fascism couldn't come about for similar reasons.  Now what I am saying, is that fundamentally society remains the same, it is a class society.  Whilst history will never exactly repeat itself, there ARE many methods of struggle which are bound to repeat themselves, because they fit the class nature of this society.  Political and economic crisis is inherent in the capitalist system, as is struggle.  hence the example of the USSR, where methods of struggle used in the 1920s and 30s were redeployed in a later age.
> 
> OH yes, add to the list of Durrito the fact that working class has only actually become a majority in recent times.  at the time of the Russian Revolution, the working class was a minority.





It wasn't a thesis but a quick post on a message board. 

I still don't see that, while we do still have class society and that crisis is indeed inherent in the capitalist system, it necessarily follows that political ideas devised to combat conditions found in societies in the century before last can still find the same kind of audience in western societies today, which are vastly different in so many ways.  

I still don't know what you're going on about with regard to the USSR. What, exactly, happened in the 1920s and 1930s that was repeated at a later date? The idea that the ideas and methods of the Bolshevik revolution have relevance in this society now, because the working class is not the minority it was in early 20th century Russia (which is what I presume you are implying) is, frankly, absurd. While the working class might technically be a majority in this society, it is much more divided, and facing ever-increasing distractions of a kind that, mostly, reinforce capitalist values, not to mention profits (and actually less numerous if we are talking about the numbers who are unambiguously workers) than it was when the Russian revolution still had the power to motivate large numbers. Even then, when the revolution's example was more plausibly relevant, it failed to capture the imaginations of enough.


----------



## LLETSA (May 31, 2008)

durruti02 said:


> while i undestand where you are coming from actually there is a strong counter argumement
> 
> - communication ( internet etc) makes a global revolution more practical
> - advances in technology make a revolution more likely to survive
> ...




All of these points seem to be based more on wishful thinking than plausibility. 

The first point may be true-but it also makes more practical the resistance of ruling classes and elites, and the many who would see themselves as having something to lose from revolution (leaving aside that the idea of global revolution is so abstract as to be meaningless.)

The second point is equally debatable for similar reasons. 

The third point is the probably the least plausible. There is no real reason to think that socialism (or whatever people want to call it) would be any kinder to the environment than capitalism, if only because it is reliant on keeping the industrial system which is allegedly responsible for exacerbating the ecological crisis going at full pelt, if not accelerating it. After all, how else could working class living standards across the world be boosted? Those who oppose capitalism are, in any case, bitterly divided about the issue, to the extent that many deny that there even is an ecological crisis.

Fourthly, 'backward reactions' have often taken place in the most highly educated of societies. It is difficult to imagine, for example, that the society of 'I'm a Celebrity' and 'Strictly Come Dancing,' is a better educated one than was Germany in 1933...

I don't think we do ourselves any favours telling each other fairy tales.


----------



## TremulousTetra (May 31, 2008)

LLETSA said:


> It wasn't a thesis but a quick post on a message board.
> 
> I still don't see that, while we do still have class society and that crisis is indeed inherent in the capitalist system, it necessarily follows that political ideas devised to combat conditions found in societies in the century before last can still find the same kind of audience in western societies today, which are vastly different in so many ways.
> 
> I still don't know what you're going on about with regard to the USSR. What, exactly, happened in the 1920s and 1930s that was repeated at a later date? The idea that the ideas and methods of the Bolshevik revolution have relevance in this society now, because the working class is not the minority it was in early 20th century Russia (which is what I presume you are implying) is, frankly, absurd. While the working class might technically be a majority in this society, it is much more divided, and facing ever-increasing distractions of a kind that, mostly, reinforce capitalist values, not to mention profits (and actually less numerous if we are talking about the numbers who are unambiguously workers) than it was when the Russian revolution still had the power to motivate large numbers. Even then, when the revolution's example was more plausibly relevant, it failed to capture the imaginations of enough.


it's a bit like evolution, if something is efficient at achieving an end, you will see it replicated throughout species.  And so in an environment, capitalism, where there is a particular inherent class system, you will see methods of struggle replicated geographically and overtime because they are efficient at achieving ends.  When "the ruling class can no longer rule in the same way, and the working class are no longer prepared to be ruled in the same way", in times of extreme crisis, you will see continuously overtime, and in different cultural areas , workers Councils appear, why is this?  likewise, you will see the ruling class reach for various forms of dictatorial rule, why is this?

so coming back to the thread, I still believe that given the right circumstances and historical forces 'fascism' can come to power. just because happened at a previous time, does not mean it cannot be repeated.  The same goes for revolution.


----------



## TremulousTetra (May 31, 2008)

LLETSA said:


> All of these points seem to be based more on wishful thinking than plausibility.
> 
> The first point may be true-but it also makes more practical the resistance of ruling classes and elites, and the many who would see themselves as having something to lose from revolution (leaving aside that the idea of global revolution is so abstract as to be meaningless.)
> 
> ...



you're absolutely right, there is no certainty at all that we can achieve any better form of society.  It's like Rosa Luxemburg said,our choice is socialism of barbarism.men make history but they do so under circumstances inherited from the past, and with those circumstances comes all kinds of mental baggage which shape our actions.


btw a global social revolution has occurred, the global transformation of societies capitalism.


----------



## audiotech (May 31, 2008)

LLETSA said:


> While the working class might technically be a majority in this society, it is much more divided, and facing ever-increasing distractions of a kind that, mostly, reinforce capitalist values, not to mention profits (and actually less numerous if we are talking about the numbers who are unambiguously workers) than it was when the Russian revolution still had the power to motivate large numbers.





> ...'backward reactions' have often taken place in the most highly educated of societies. It is difficult to imagine, for example, that the society of 'I'm a Celebrity' and 'Strictly Come Dancing,' is a better educated one than was Germany in 1933...





> I don't think we do ourselves any favours telling each other fairy tales.



So, by those measures, it appears you've written off workers here as a revolutionary class?

Most too distracted by 'I'm a celebrity' and 'Strictly Come Dancing' then and thereby pointless fighting for radical change?

Meanwhile, the BNP appear 'radical' and fill the vacuum that's left.

It's not about telling "fairy tales", it's about building a revolutionary organisation able to provide an alternative to the forces of reaction. Anything else is just pie in the sky.


----------



## durruti02 (May 31, 2008)

just came across this .. from 1994 .. 

http://pubs.socialistreviewindex.org.uk/sr176/bambery.htm


jPast Nazi Votes
The following figures put the Nazi vote into perspective. The Nazis are not able to do what the NF did in 1977 when they contested every London seat in the GLC elections. Neither are they able to achieve what they did in a Deptford by-election in 1976 when they polled 44 percent.

1973 local council elections NF votes
Feltham/Heston 7.7 percent
Hayes and Harlington 8.5 percent

Average NF vote May 1977
Greater London Council elections
Bethnal Green & Bow 19 percent 
Stepney & Poplar 16.4 percent 
Barking 9 percent
Bermondsey 10.2 percent 
Deptford 14.5 percent 
Newham South 15.1 percent

Average NF votes across area May 1982
BNP/NF vote April 1992 local elections
Bethnal Green & Stepney (BNP) 3.595 percent
Bow & Poplar (BNP) 2.96 percent
Dudley East (NF) 1.19 percent
Rochdale (BNP) 1.15 percent
Southwark & Bermondsey (BNP) 1.4 percent (NF) 0.4 percent

Other significant Nazi votes
March 1937 Bethnal Green 23.1 percent (British Union of Fascists)
Oct 1949 Sboreditch 15 percent (union Movement)
Dec 1972 Uxbridge by-election 8.2 percent (NF)
May 1973 West Bromwich by-election 16.2 percent (NF)
February '1974 general election Bethnal Green & Bow 7 percent (NF)

Average NF votes local elections 1976-1980

                76   77     78     79    80 
Rochdale    7.1   4.1    3.6    3.0   3.0 
Birmingham 4.3   5.2    3.9    -      2.1 
Dudley        -    10.6  5.2   3.4   6.0 
Sandwell    17.0  9.6   8.3   -      3.2 
Solihull      3.5    6.7   5.1   3.6   1.8 

also this is the GLC result from 77 when the NF peaked in london 
http://www.election.demon.co.uk/glc/glcresults.html


1977: Electorate 5,183,660: T'out 43.3%: SWING +14.54

Party       Votes           %     Ch.% Candidates     Seats

C             1,177,390       52.5  +14.5   92            64
Lab             737,194       32.9  -14.5   92            28
L                174,405        7.8  - 4.7    91             -
NF              119,060        5.3  + 4.8    91             -
Nat Party        8,300        0.4             22             -
Com               8,267        0.4  - 0.2    24             -
GLCA              7,869        0.4             31             -
IMG                1,930        0.1              4             -
Ind                 1,834        0.1              9             -
People            1,621        0.1              2             -
Ind C             1,025        0.0              1             -
Ind L                878        0.0              3             -
ENP               685        0.0           5             -
FP                552        0.0           1             -
SPGB              502        0.0  - 0.1    4             -
EP                298        0.0           1             -
NB                254        0.0           1             -
    Total   2,242,064      100.0         474            92


----------



## LLETSA (Jun 1, 2008)

MC5 said:


> So, by those measures, it appears you've written off workers here as a revolutionary class?
> 
> Most too distracted by 'I'm a celebrity' and 'Strictly Come Dancing' then and thereby pointless fighting for radical change?
> 
> ...




I never said anything was pointless, merely tried to briefly sketch out the reality of our times. 

Your last sentence is just an ahistorical mantra. In reality, and regardless of the rhetoric (not to mention the endless reams of analysis and tactical zig-zagging), the western left gave up building revolutionary organisations decades ago, aware deep down that they had been sidelined but too wedded to obsolete dogma to find a way out of their predicament.


----------



## LLETSA (Jun 1, 2008)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> it's a bit like evolution, if something is efficient at achieving an end, you will see it replicated throughout species.  And so in an environment, capitalism, where there is a particular inherent class system, you will see methods of struggle replicated geographically and overtime because they are efficient at achieving ends.  When "the ruling class can no longer rule in the same way, and the working class are no longer prepared to be ruled in the same way", in times of extreme crisis, you will see continuously overtime, and in different cultural areas , workers Councils appear, why is this?  likewise, you will see the ruling class reach for various forms of dictatorial rule, why is this?
> 
> so coming back to the thread, I still believe that given the right circumstances and historical forces 'fascism' can come to power. just because happened at a previous time, does not mean it cannot be repeated.  The same goes for revolution.





Such as this-there isn't really all that much you can say about such faith-based, mechanical dogmatism. As if the conditions that prevailed at a certain time, giving rise to certain methods of struggle, have remained the same, for a start.

Oh well.


----------



## LLETSA (Jun 1, 2008)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> btw a global social revolution has occurred, the global transformation of societies capitalism.





If you mean that capitalism has spread to every part of the globe than I'd agree. But, as already said, it doesn't follow that socialist revolution will do likewise (even though it might have seemed halfway plausible when the theories on which the radical left still depends were concocted.) The methods by which the two systems are spread are different for one thing, with far more resources at the disposal of those who seek to spread capitalism, as well as minimal self-sacrifice on the part of those who lead the institutions responsible for doing it.


----------



## LLETSA (Jun 1, 2008)

MC5 said:


> So, by those measures, it appears you've written off workers here as a revolutionary class?
> 
> Most too distracted by 'I'm a celebrity' and 'Strictly Come Dancing' then and thereby pointless fighting for radical change?





This point was in response to Durruti's remarks about a better educated society being less likely to have 'a bad reaction' to certain political events. As I said, there's no shortage of examples of well-educated societies lapsing into bloodthirsty tyranny or nihilism. Here's some more: Yugoslavia almost certainly had a better educated population at the beginning of the 1990s than we have, with the market-oriented training that now passes for education for the vast majority in this country. Look what happened there. The very well-educated Soviet population was powerless to prevent a descent into gangster-capitalism and abject poverty once the Commiunist-ruled system abdicated. Lack of political freedom, and hence experience of organising politically, certainly played it's part in those societies, but nobody can say that the people weren't well-educated. As already noted, nobody could possibly claim that the well-educated German population lacked political experience in 1933.


----------



## durruti02 (Jun 1, 2008)

LLETSA said:


> This point was in response to Durruti's remarks about a better educated society being less likely to have 'a bad reaction' to certain political events. As I said, there's no shortage of examples of well-educated societies lapsing into bloodthirsty tyranny or nihilism. Here's some more: Yugoslavia almost certainly had a better educated population at the beginning of the 1990s than we have, with the market-oriented training that now passes for education for the vast majority in this country. Look what happened there. The very well-educated Soviet population was powerless to prevent a descent into gangster-capitalism and abject poverty once the Commiunist-ruled system abdicated. Lack of political freedom, and hence experience of organising politically, certainly played it's part in those societies, but nobody can say that the people weren't well-educated. As already noted, nobody could possibly claim that the well-educated German population lacked political experience in 1933.




hey mate look it's all percentages .. look i never said it was going to makeit happen JUST that there is a counter arguement .. doesn't make it fact .. tbth i think the chances of people ever running their lives in a real democratic society are pretty minimal .. but it was ever so .. but what has that got to do with teh attempt to do that? as i said to poster the other day just cos something got harder doesn't mean you get out or does it??  to me being human means fighting for my species my family my community .. I can not see it anyother way nor in any other context .. i do not blame people for being tried and cycnical but if you think we who not, are purely in fairy land or faith based, you are very wrong .. i am absoutely aware of how bleak it is .. it is just that that does not stop me having a go  'optimism of the will .. pessimism of the intelect'

p.s. i'm short .. and part welsh and part jewish .. we never give up!


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jun 1, 2008)

LLETSA said:


> Such as this-there isn't really all that much you can say about such faith-based, mechanical dogmatism. As if the conditions that prevailed at a certain time, giving rise to certain methods of struggle, have remained the same, for a start.
> 
> Oh well.


what are you talking about? it is nothing to do with faith.  it is observable fact that when the ruling class, those who control the means of production,  can no longer rule through democratic means, they resort to any means necessary, including fascism, to maintain that rule.  equally so, it is observable there are phenomena in the methods of working-class struggle that consistently repeat themselves.

now what you seem to be saying is that we should throw a couple hundred years of observation out of the window.





LLETSA said:


> Even if they did want to do it, it's beyond the power of even the strongest 'Euronationalist' party to smash bourgeois democracy.
> 
> The left's problem is that it still lives in an era of mass revolutionary movements and fascist backlash (or the potential for them.) Neither are any longer possible.


 so go one explain, why is it impossible for there to be crisis where those who control the means of production might turn to fascism to smash bourgeois democracy? exactly what has changed in the nature of capitalism?


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jun 1, 2008)

durruti02 said:


> hey mate look it's all percentages .. look i never said it was going to makeit happen JUST that there is a counter arguement .. doesn't make it fact .. tbth i think the chances of people ever running their lives in a real democratic society are pretty minimal .. but it was ever so .. but what has that got to do with teh attempt to do that? as i said to poster the other day just cos something got harder doesn't mean you get out or does it??  to me being human means fighting for my species my family my community .. I can not see it anyother way nor in any other context .. i do not blame people for being tried and cycnical but if you think we who not, are purely in fairy land or faith based, you are very wrong .. i am absoutely aware of how bleak it is .. it is just that that does not stop me having a go  'optimism of the will .. pessimism of the intelect'
> 
> p.s. i'm short .. and part welsh and part jewish .. we never give up!


agreed.  pretty pessimistic myself, but it isn't impossible.


----------



## audiotech (Jun 1, 2008)

durruti02 said:


> just came across this .. from 1994 ..
> 
> http://pubs.socialistreviewindex.org.uk/sr176/bambery.htm
> 
> ...



I've been saying this for bloody years and have been flamed constantly for it.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jun 1, 2008)

durruti02 said:


> you are too then a liar and a smear artist - you have already admitteded you were, disgracefully, NOT working from the stats, were NOT using the actual election results, as i and others have been,
> 
> and then your smear artist prejudice comes in, that assumes comment on the dangerous reality of a nationally increasing vote/spread for the scum of the BNP is some sort of 'bnp worship' .. sad
> 
> ...



ho ho ho you selective answerer (i reproduce the entire post so you can get round to a competant reply next time.

'Working from the stats' - what a load of cok and bull. The problem is that the stats are not as innocent as they seem. You can play all sorts of tricks with stats... 

BUT to answer your question with an even cleverer reply - YOU are the one not working from all the stats at all, as the national stats shows the BNP as completely and utterly useless, incompetant, marginal - of no significance whatsoever. A national vote (if you count seats where they don't stand) in the region of  <1% - an estimate but I would be very surprised if it was over that.

The problems is that you and t'others are helping to hype the BNP issue up out of all proportion to their importance as a class struggle - that is why you have an apriori position of BNP/griffin worship. A provocative but an honest autonomous Marxist description of what you do on U75. 



Au contraire Durutti2 - I never said things 'are clear'. I think you have 'prejeudiced and myopic' theory and practice. I ground my views in the real world, from grounded theory and practice, and proper analysis of voting trends. You as I said, have adopted an apriori 'bnp worship position' - for you the BNP are 'always on the up and are always doing well';

First off - you are off the mark with your analysis of the significance of the BNP. THeir 500 votes at their high point was NOT deserved, reflected no serious changes or a social base- but was based on racist hype, in the context of old prejeudices of a declining imperial power. All it did was encourage and recruit some of the apolitical conservative racist right who normally stumble along, who mouth 'coon' when they see black people. 

Hence you (independent old leftists - iwca etc) lot went OTT about how well they were doing. This misreading left you subequently unable to acknowledge let alone explain their decline in 2006/7/8.

How would you describe their decline from a vote per candidate total of 500, down to 311.9 votes then. I called it a 'dramatic decline' because proportionately it is for a BNP supposedly 'on the up'!! It is a decline of 37.606% in their vote - significant in everybodies book except you lot for some reason. 

That sort of vote crisis would provoke huge trauma in large parties - it is just that you lot and Griffin could help to portray the vote tumble as them 'spreading', and so help to NOT provoke a larger trauma for the bnp.

I long ago said, and first btw, that is is you lot who bluster when real results go against your perspective. No whining from me pal and it is you who huff and puff when confronted by ideas which do not fit your preconceived notions of ultra left politics. 

What is seriously 'embarrassing' is being unable to spell embarrassing correctly, you are whinging, whinging, huffing and making school boy errors just like you accuse me of doing.

What is pathetic is the ultra left being unable to engage with serious Marxist analysis.

As for your ps question - do you think that perhaps it is possible that they have only recruited elements already existing with conservative imperial Britain, so that their 'growth' has been at the expense of the social constituencies they would need to grow any further? 

So that they have recruited 'old stylee racists' - which seems probable given their coverage in the media. That they have recruited not because of, but in spite of these politics? They have got bigger organisationally, but at the expense of a large import into 'the general public'. Certainly it is a reading I think is worth exploring.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jun 2, 2008)

durruti02 said:


> just came across this .. from 1994 ..
> 
> http://pubs.socialistreviewindex.org.uk/sr176/bambery.htm
> 
> ...



This shows that the left has always electorally done badly against the fascists.


----------



## durruti02 (Jun 2, 2008)

MC5 said:


> I've been saying this for bloody years and have been flamed constantly for it.


  LOL  .. you fell right into that mate didn't you!!.. that is the swp talking in 1994!!!! not now .. and the point is that the bnp vote is higher in a london that is radically less fertile ground for them and when they were not even able to stand candidates in most of the seats ..


----------



## durruti02 (Jun 2, 2008)

Attica said:


> 1) 'Working from the stats' - what a load of cok and bull. The problem is that the stats are not as innocent as they seem. You can play all sorts of tricks with stats...
> 
> 2) BUT to answer your question with an even cleverer reply - YOU are the one not working from all the stats at all, as the national stats shows the BNP as completely and utterly useless, incompetant, marginal - of no significance whatsoever. A national vote (if you count seats where they don't stand) in the region of  <1% - an estimate but I would be very surprised if it was over that.
> 
> ...



1) this is scientific nonsense

2) you are not capable of you at what things mean rather than a simple number .. yes of course you are right .. they are tiny .. but when looked at in terms of white w/c the become more significant .. that is  what is of interest not the static picture you see 

3) don't be a wanker .. you do not defeat fascism by subverting it on an obscure internet site but by creating a movement in the class 

4) you have no practice ( if i am wrong then tell us it please) .. and your theory illustrates this .. for many white w/c people the bnp hs become an option .. if you had contact with w/c people you would know this ..  this is a very dangerous position .. 

5) you are contradicting the research from JRF Essex Uni  etc .. there is no doubt much of there support comes from the group you describe but again you miss the important bit is that they have expanded out of this group 

6) oh dear .. yes a decline in % vote as they expand out of their core areas .. not unusual at all .. and obviously on top of this has been their split  in west yorks / west mids

7) er yes! the reason it has not caused total trauma is as their vote and cllrs continues to go up nationally and particulalry in new areas e.g. south yorks. you do not defeat fascism by subverting it on an obscure internet site but by creating a movement in the class. tbh i think teh state via griffin probabaly will bring them down .. that though will not diminish the support / desire for reaction in thsi country and will probabaly herald a more mainstream authoritarian govt  


8) pre conceived .. mate if ANYONE on here is operating from preconceived it is you .. i certainly am not 

9) this to me is the thing that really shows you up .. you are more concerned about spelling mistakes .. pathetic

10) explain why your ananlysis is marxist please i see no evidence 

11) yes there is evidence of this .. this has been explored by JRF ansd essex and as i said above it is their break out of this constituency that is worrying and dangerous


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## The Black Hand (Jun 2, 2008)

durruti02 said:


> 1) this is scientific nonsense
> 
> 2) you are not capable of you at what things mean rather than a simple number .. yes of course you are right .. they are tiny .. but when looked at in terms of white w/c the become more significant .. that is  what is of interest not the static picture you see
> 
> ...



1) Then you my friend are very niave.
2) DOh! Of course I know what 'they mean', interms of the working class and from a working class pov they are still tiny. They still stand in an absolute minority number of working class areas by a considerable margin. Au contraire, I have constantly emphasised movement and dynamism, normally through praxis. It is you who have ultra left politics from the distant past who has stasis. My theory is grounded and developed in these times rather than a romantic ultra left past - you shouldn't have read the ICC or other left communist heandbangers/loons - delete as applicable.
3) Doh! Whoever said that????? You and others objectively do fetishise the BNP repeatedly, how else could you realistically describe the evidence a plenty on u75?
4) You're wrong.
5) Researchers often disagree. I do not think their 'expension' if it could be called that is of any relevance yet.
6) But totally overlooked and not explained by you lot.
7) It is totally marginal growth, of no significance statistically in proportion to the big picture.
8) Oh ho ho. Preconceived? Moi Au contraire - i developed this position out of conditions after you lot had ample opportunity to poisen the wicket with your 'theory'. Mine was a reaction to your (iwca/RA/CW/ Searchlight/o'Hara etc) dross/toss - delete as applicable.
9) You started the schoolboy jibes - do not be surprised if it gets hurled back in your face to expose your own contradictions. This is immanent critique Marxism btw.
10) Then you do not know very much about Marxism then - there is enough of my writing in public, mags and on the web to see its' pedigree. It is NEW Autonomous Marxism within the tradition of the British Marxist Historians - rather than ULTRA LEFT CAK.
11) Looks like I will have to grapple with the Essex uni research to see the flaws - there are always some... I will concentrate on what evidence there is for a break into new social constitutencies.


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## audiotech (Jun 2, 2008)

durruti02 said:


> LOL  .. you fell right into that mate didn't you!!.. that is the swp talking in 1994!!!! not now .. and the point is that the bnp vote is higher in a london that is radically less fertile ground for them and when they were not even able to stand candidates in most of the seats ..



 Nice one!

Good article in the lastest Searchlight btw. It's saying a lot of what you have been saying on 'where now for anti-fascists'? Although in a more reflective, calm manner.  "Thinking nationally, acting locally" is the main editorial. I suggest you get hold of a copy.


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## durruti02 (Jun 2, 2008)

MC5 said:


> Nice one!
> 
> Good article in the lastest Searchlight btw. It's saying a lot of what you have been saying on 'where now for anti-fascists'? Although in a more reflective, calm manner.  "Thinking nationally, acting locally" is the main editorial. I suggest you get hold of a copy.



he he 

cheers .. will take a look at that .. sounds interesting .. be interested to see if it is nick knowles and whether the hackney discussion has had an influence 

and hey pal who you accusing of not being reflective and calm!

he he


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## durruti02 (Jun 2, 2008)

Attica said:


> 1) Then you my friend are very niave.
> 2) DOh! Of course I know what 'they mean', interms of the working class and from a working class pov they are still tiny. They still stand in an absolute minority number of working class areas by a considerable margin. Au contraire, I have constantly emphasised movement and dynamism, normally through praxis. It is you who have ultra left politics from the distant past who has stasis. My theory is grounded and developed in these times rather than a romantic ultra left past - you shouldn't have read the ICC or other left communist heandbangers/loons - delete as applicable.
> 3) Doh! Whoever said that????? You and others objectively do fetishise the BNP repeatedly, how else could you realistically describe the evidence a plenty on u75?
> 4) You're wrong.
> ...


 whatever .. i am sure you mean well but you are totally out of touch .. there is no more point in debating with you as your analysis has no basis in reality but only in your academic magazine world .. it is not good enough 

p.s. 6) i started a thread about it .. shakes head and walks away


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## butchersapron (Jun 2, 2008)

Result from last week:

Chard, Crimchard Ward.
Lib-Dems 423 votes
Cons 320 votes
BNP 154 (17.2%)


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## durruti02 (Jun 2, 2008)

Average NF votes local elections 1976-1980

...................76.....77     78     79    80 
Rochdale.......7.1%    4.1    3.6    3.0   3.0 
Birmingham....4.3%    5.2    3.9    -      2.1 
Dudley............ -     10.6    5.2    3.4   6.0 
Sandwell.....17.0%     9.6     8.3   -      3.2 
Solihull.........3.5%     6.7     5.1    3.6   1.8 


Local authority
 .................2006....   2007.......2008

Sandwell
 ................33.0%  ....24.6%   .....17.4%

Dudley
 .................26.5% ... 18.7%  .......14.7%

Kirklees
 .................18.4%  ...16.5%  .......14.4%

Burnley
 .................30.0%  ...25.1%  .......22.8%


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## audiotech (Jun 2, 2008)

durruti02 said:


> he he
> 
> cheers .. will take a look at that .. sounds interesting .. be interested to see if it is nick knowles and whether the hackney discussion has had an influence
> 
> ...



"pal"? 

'Prolongs Active Life'.


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## The Black Hand (Jun 2, 2008)

durruti02 said:


> whatever .. i am sure you mean well but you are totally out of touch .. there is no more point in debating with you as your analysis has no basis in reality but only in your academic magazine world .. it is not good enough
> 
> p.s. 6) i started a thread about it .. shakes head and walks away



whatever .. i am sure you mean well but you are totally out of touch .. there is no point in debating with you as you have no analysis, no basis in reality, but only in your ultra left world .. it is not good enough 

Ps - really, i do miss the odd thing


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## LLETSA (Jun 3, 2008)

durruti02 said:


> hey mate look it's all percentages .. look i never said it was going to makeit happen JUST that there is a counter arguement .. doesn't make it fact .. tbth i think the chances of people ever running their lives in a real democratic society are pretty minimal .. but it was ever so .. but what has that got to do with teh attempt to do that? as i said to poster the other day just cos something got harder doesn't mean you get out or does it??  to me being human means fighting for my species my family my community .. I can not see it anyother way nor in any other context .. i do not blame people for being tried and cycnical but if you think we who not, are purely in fairy land or faith based, you are very wrong .. i am absoutely aware of how bleak it is .. it is just that that does not stop me having a go  'optimism of the will .. pessimism of the intelect'
> 
> p.s. i'm short .. and part welsh and part jewish .. we never give up!





It's okay-I'm not suggesting you should.


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## LLETSA (Jun 3, 2008)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> what are you talking about? it is nothing to do with faith.  it is observable fact that when the ruling class, those who control the means of production,  can no longer rule through democratic means, they resort to any means necessary, including fascism, to maintain that rule.  equally so, it is observable there are phenomena in the methods of working-class struggle that consistently repeat themselves.
> 
> now what you seem to be saying is that we should throw a couple hundred years of observation out of the window. so go one explain, why is it impossible for there to be crisis where those who control the means of production might turn to fascism to smash bourgeois democracy? exactly what has changed in the nature of capitalism?





I don't really know what to say to somebody who seems to think that history is simply a series of events repeating themselves and generalises so much that he speaks as if the entire world is one society that never changes.


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## TremulousTetra (Jun 3, 2008)

LLETSA said:


> I don't really know what to say to somebody who seems to think that history is simply a series of events repeating themselves and generalises so much that he speaks as if the entire world is one society that never changes.


I'm not surprised you don't know what to say, you are talking shit.  for example, can you name Society where those who have controlled the means of production, haven't 'controlled' society?  This is a constantly repeating phenomena of "CLASS SOCIETY", not believed in as in blind faith, but observed as in science.  this is a phenomena that will never cease to exist, as long as we have CLASS SOCIETY.  if you are seriously arguing that a ruling class will not turn to any means necessary, including fascism, in order to defend its control, you are a bigger numpty than you have already displayed, however I think you're merely unable to admit when you are wrong.

and that is something else you don't understand about marxism, it isn't saying society never changes, it is the theory of change.  Marx is to explaining the dynamics of social evolution, what Darwin was to the natural world.


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## JimPage (Jun 3, 2008)

http://lukeakehurst.blogspot.com/2008/06/london-results-by-parliamentary.html

Lists BNP votes by parliamentary constituency in London, where the votes were significant. One in Particular of note, where they are clearly within 
striking distance of taking the parliamentary seat - namely Dagenham & Rainham 

C - 7,065 (28.84%), BNP - 6,112 (24.95%),  *2nd Place*Lab - 5,620 (22.94%), LD - 1,227(5.01%), Green 794 (3.24%)

Anyway, in summary- their best votes

Barking BNP - 6,129 (26.23%) *2nd Place*
Bexleyheath & Crayford BNP - 3,433 (13.81%), *3rd Place*
Bromley & Chislehurst – BNP - 1,829 (6.97%)
Carshalton & Wallington – BNP - 1,955 (8.10%) 
Chingford & Woodford Green – BNP - 2,086 (7.74%)
Croydon Central BNP - 2,144 (7.77%)
Edmonton –  BNP - 1,296 (5.62%), 
Eltham – BNP - 2,982 (11.85%) *3rd Place*
Enfield N – BNP - 1,908 (7.51%) *3rd Place*
Erith & Thamesmead – BNP - 3,015 (13.23%), *3rd Place*
Feltham & Heston – BNP - 1,682 (8.04%)
Greenwich & Woolwich –  BNP - 810 (6.20%)
Hayes & Harlington –  BNP - 2,081 (9.87%) *3rd Place*
Hornchurch & Upminster – BNP - 5,386 (16.90%), *2nd Place*
Ilford N – BNP - 2,226 (8.19%), *3rd Place*
Mitcham & Morden – BNP - 1,976 (7.30%), *3rd Place*
Northwood & Pinner – BNP - 1,677 (5.47%)
Old Bexley & Sidcup – BNP - 3,020 (10.63%) *3rd Place*
Orpington – BNP - 2,356 (7.62%)  
Romford – BNP - 4,100 (15.30%), *2nd Place*
Sutton & Cheam – BNP - 1,852 (7.28%) 
Uxbridge & S Ruislip – BNP - 2,738 (10.64%)  *3rd Place*
West Ham – BNP - 1,673 (6.29%),


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## JimPage (Jun 3, 2008)

BNP fighting Henley by election

Candidates expected in council by elections in Hillingdon, Bexley and Havering on July 4th


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## The Black Hand (Jun 3, 2008)

JimPage said:


> http://lukeakehurst.blogspot.com/2008/06/london-results-by-parliamentary.html
> 
> Lists BNP votes by parliamentary constituency in London, where the votes were significant. One in Particular of note, where they are clearly within
> striking distance of taking the parliamentary seat - namely Dagenham & Rainham
> ...



I make that a total of their best votes area of 85656 and a % BNP average vote of 10.5629% IN THEIR *BEST WARDS* (of those who voted).

Just at a level to get the lay anti racist and anti fascists starting to mobilise I would have thought.

As for Barking and Dagenham, the 3 way between Tory/Labour/BNP will be interesting - the Lib dem and green vote will never go BNP, so its difficult to call. However, I suspect that the Tory and Labour have more voters who can be mobilised (who stayed at home this time) than the BNP by a considerable margin.


----------



## LLETSA (Jun 3, 2008)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> I'm not surprised you don't know what to say, you are talking shit.  for example, can you name Society where those who have controlled the means of production, haven't 'controlled' society?  This is a constantly repeating phenomena of "CLASS SOCIETY", not believed in as in blind faith, but observed as in science.  this is a phenomena that will never cease to exist, as long as we have CLASS SOCIETY.  if you are seriously arguing that a ruling class will not turn to any means necessary, including fascism, in order to defend its control, you are a bigger numpty than you have already displayed, however I think you're merely unable to admit when you are wrong.
> 
> and that is something else you don't understand about marxism, it isn't saying society never changes, it is the theory of change.  Marx is to explaining the dynamics of social evolution, what Darwin was to the natural world.




Yes indeed-the blindingly obvious fact that this remains a class society means that what happened elsewhere in a different era is set to repeat itself just as it never did before.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jun 3, 2008)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> so go on explain, why is it impossible for there to be crisis where those who control the means of production might turn to fascism to smash bourgeois democracy? exactly what has changed in the nature of capitalism?



Good point which Letsa failed to answer. Sorry Letty but its true. Those in control of the means of production, international capitalism, could still return to fascism where ever they choose to given the lack of a tolerant thinking and positive working class alternative anywhere/everywhere (but especially here). That is not to say they will have to here, I do not believe fascism is on the agenda in britain, globalised capital will not allow it for the foreseeable. How long the foreseeable is I don't know, but at least 40/50 years, if ever.


----------



## LLETSA (Jun 3, 2008)

Attica said:


> Good point which Letsa failed to answer. Sorry Letty but its true. Those in control of the means of production, international capitalism, could still return to fascism where ever they choose to given the lack of a tolerant thinking and positive working class alternative anywhere/everywhere (but especially here). That is not to say they will have to here, I do not believe fascism is on the agenda in britain, globalised capital will not allow it for the foreseeable. How long the foreseeable is I don't know, but at least 40/50 years, if ever.





They will not turn to fascism because changed conditions rule out a systematic challenge to capitalism.

Note to RMP3: this doesn't mean that class society has ceased to exist, simply that both it and (simplifying for the sake of brevity) the way capitalism organises itself have changed. The radical left, in all its forms, has failed to do so, which is why it no longer has any real purchase on reality and is in irreversible decline. Class struggle will not cease but it will not lead to revolution as envisaged for the last century or more.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jun 4, 2008)

Manchester June 10th - grass roots campaigning against racism and fascism;

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2008/06/400018.html

This is interesting cos it is a key group in Oldham who have tirelessly campaigned on a united front/popular front basis against racism and fascism in Oldham. And guess what, the BNP vote has gone down and their candidate numbers in one of their thought of 'heartlands' has declined to 4. So much for the 'ever growing' bnp - they are on the way out


----------



## The Black Hand (Jun 4, 2008)

LLETSA said:


> They will not turn to fascism because changed conditions rule out a systematic challenge to capitalism.



You seem to have been coming to grips with globalised capitalism recently - has anything caused your shift in emphasis/analysis recently?

I am not sure if I agree with you either boss, certainly it would appear that there is more of a material basis (economically and culturally) for a working class left/@ opposition to form than the right wing nationalists. As the left/@ can use solidarity across boundaries - there is even one big UK union shortly to merge with an American one... I am not saying it will necessarily or inevitably be done, but 'nationalisms' have far less possibilities in common for united political work in globalised conditions. Over to you.


----------



## durruti02 (Jun 4, 2008)

JimPage said:


> http://lukeakehurst.blogspot.com/2008/06/london-results-by-parliamentary.html
> 
> Lists BNP votes by parliamentary constituency in London, where the votes were significant. One in Particular of note, where they are clearly within
> striking distance of taking the parliamentary seat - namely Dagenham & Rainham
> ...




nf did very well in sw london as well

eta oops that should be SE london .. sorry


----------



## The Black Hand (Jun 4, 2008)

durruti02 said:


> nf did very well in sw london as well



How do you explain that vote without a cultural materialist pov?? 

*i do not see how it can be done otherwise,* certainly not realistically and honestly from an anarchist and/or Marxist pov.


----------



## JimPage (Jun 4, 2008)

Attica said:


> I make that a total of their best votes area of 85656 and a % BNP average vote of 10.5629% IN THEIR *BEST WARDS* (of those who voted).



In their best wards- in B&D and Havering - (the 8 in which they won outright)- from memory they are polling low 40%  high 30%


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## JimPage (Jun 4, 2008)

Fortcoming by election candidates confirmed for BNP in by-elections for Hatfield and Blackpool councils


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## The Black Hand (Jun 5, 2008)

JimPage said:


> In their best wards- in B&D and Havering - (the 8 in which they won outright)- from memory they are polling low 40%  high 30%



I quoted you saying those were their 'best wards', as for Barking and Dagenham how about looking at you own figures?

"namely Dagenham & Rainham 

C - 7,065 (28.84%), BNP - 6,112 (24.95%), 2nd PlaceLab - 5,620 (22.94%), LD - 1,227(5.01%), Green 794 (3.24%)

Anyway, in summary- their best votes

Barking BNP - 6,129 (26.23%)"

Add Dagenham & Rainham, to Barking = 51.23, and divide by 2 = *25.59%*. 

That's well short of high 30's and low 40's%....


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 5, 2008)

No, the top 7 results in the wards they won in B&B are

34.5%
31.1%
30.6%
31.7%
38.2%
34%
38.5%.

Jim is just about correct - and cabn be fogiven being slightly off target as he's working from memory. 

And it's totally dishonest to use his quote about the 7 wards they won in B&D (and he's quite specific that these are the results he's talking about) and attempt to dismiss it on the basis of the total vote across alll the wards. Even searclight have stopped this 'they're going nowhere in B&D and D&R' propoganda approach today. They are now warning of a potential BNP council and two MPs.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jun 5, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> No, the top 7 results in the wards they won in B&B are
> 
> 34.5%
> 31.1%
> ...



so what did you say the solution was again Napoleon?  

BTW, how's the halitosis?


----------



## The Black Hand (Jun 5, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> No, the top 7 results in the wards they won in B&B are
> 
> 34.5%
> 31.1%
> ...



I wasn't doing anything I just used what was in front of me - there was no agenda or plot... 

I have used their winning figures you have supplied. Their average % in those is 34% - 34.08% to be exact.

That is not high 30's or low 40's is it?? I have not got anything against jim at all - you though have things to sort out with me and quickly, you had better calm down a bit Things cannot go on as they are. 

I'm surprised you can't recognise ultra left politics when you see it either.


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## JimPage (Jun 8, 2008)

3 forthcoming by elections in Londonwith BNP Canddiates- all on 3rd July
Bexley Christchurch Ward
Barking Chadwell Heath ward
Havering South Hornchurch ward

The last 2 need particular attention, and are both potentially winnable for BNP on a very good day

By election next week, in Carslile, forthcoming in Derbyshire, Hatfield and Blackpool


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## durruti02 (Jun 15, 2008)

JimPage said:


> 3 forthcoming by elections in Londonwith BNP Canddiates- all on 3rd July
> Bexley Christchurch Ward
> Barking Chadwell Heath ward
> Havering South Hornchurch ward
> ...



whens the hatfield one jim?


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## The Black Hand (Jun 15, 2008)

Pure comedy gold if true;

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2008/06/401192.html


----------



## JimPage (Jun 16, 2008)

durruti02 said:


> whens the hatfield one jim?



Hatfield Central 26th June

Also picked up they are fighting by elections in Hillingdon and Redbridge - so thats 5 in London over next month.

Also, Derbyshire CC- Eckington- 3 July


----------



## trevhagl (Jun 17, 2008)

The left are failing because they have no funding, whereas the BNP have lots of rich backers who want to cause division amongst the working class.
Griffin is clearly bonkers when he says things like "Brown's welfarist agenda" when New Labour have done more than even the tories to persecute the unemployed - but some people will believe anything he says...


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## JimPage (Jun 17, 2008)

On matters BNP- and in particular their leadership challenge- Chris Jackson has postponed his challenge until 2009- and the Voice Of Change crowds website seems to have gone down completely, and no update for a week on Colin Autys leadership challenge blog, so this may or may not happen


----------



## The Black Hand (Jun 18, 2008)

The host of the RWB festival has had visitors overnight - clearly they didn't like the fascist farmer;

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2008/06/401448.html?c=on#c197848


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## JimPage (Jun 19, 2008)

Attica said:


> The host of the RWB festival has had visitors overnight - clearly they didn't like the fascist farmer;
> 
> http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2008/06/401448.html?c=on#c197848



Well am not going to slag Antifa off, or advocate what they do, as I would not personally get involved in physical force antifascism any more (due to fitness - i would probably be a liability)

However, on reflection, I just dont know the physical force strategy fits in to the new reality of the BNP on the GLA after May 1st. Things have changed- and antifascism needs to evolve. 

And based on some of the more psychotic posts on the Lancaster Unity site, unless the demo against the RWB is properly stewarded, it risks ending up in mass arrests for antifascists, or women and kids getting hurt, which has never been the anti fascist way


----------



## The Black Hand (Jun 19, 2008)

JimPage said:


> Well am not going to slag Antifa off, or advocate what they do, as I would not personally get involved in physical force antifascism any more (due to fitness - i would probably be a liability)
> 
> However, on reflection, I just dont know the physical force strategy fits in to the new reality of the BNP on the GLA after May 1st. Things have changed- and antifascism needs to evolve.
> 
> And based on some of the more psychotic posts on the Lancaster Unity site, unless the demo against the RWB is properly stewarded, it risks ending up in mass arrests for antifascists, or women and kids getting hurt, which has never been the anti fascist way



I do not think it was anti fa...


----------



## The Black Hand (Jun 19, 2008)

Nazi threat to Reverend and the Makers 


Jon McClure from Reverend and the Makers is speaking out in the face of death threats by Nazis on the Stormfront internet bulletin board and other fascist websites. 

The threats against him and Babyshambles’ Drew McConnell came in response to Jon’s decision to organise a Love Music Hate Racism (LMHR) gig in Rotherham, where the fascist British National Party (BNP) gained two seats at the last council election, and a northern LMHR carnival next year. 

“These fascists are saying that they’re going to fuck us up, but they’re not going to change anything. Why should we let these thugs stop us?” Jon told Socialist Worker. 

“The BNP claims to be democratic – but this shows that their behaviour is fundamentally at odds with democracy. It shows them up as a bunch of thugs. 

“Some people are thinking of voting for the BNP as some kind of protest vote. It’s important for them to realise they are actually voting for real Nazis. 

“The BNP is not just against Asians and black people, they’re against everyone – the disabled, the poor, Jewish people. 

“I was thinking about the 42 days detention law that’s just gone through- what would the BNP do with those powers if they got into government?” 

The LMHR gig at the Magma centre in Rotherham is on 6 September and its line-up now includes Reverend and the Makers, Roll Deep and Cabaret Voltaire. 

The Kaiser Chiefs have also been invited to join the line-up. 

“You think about how music has changed in the last 50 years – we would have none of that mixture of music and culture if the likes of the BNP had their way,” said Jon. 

“We thought rather than do the event in Sheffield we would do it in Rotherham and say to these people, ‘We don’t want you here, we don’t want your fascist shit’.” 

Jon and other LMHR supporters will be performing at the national anti-BNP demonstration in central London this Saturday. 

The following should be read alongside this article: 
» United we will smash the Nazi BNP 
» Could fascism take power today? 
» How the BNP poses as a respectable party 
» Building local groups against the BNP 

To buy tickets for the Rotherham Love Music Hate Racism gig go to 

» www.lovemusichateracism.com


----------



## The Black Hand (Jun 19, 2008)

Have a laugh at this stupid Nazi from the BNP deputys blog;

al south staffs said... 
simon.coming through tamworth town centre this evening.i noticed 4 somali looking lads undressing the young girls with their eyes.i thought they were waiting for a bus into the big city. hell no they were waiting for a local bus.i thought the local social housing stock was full up ? times are concerning.PEOPLE PLEASE WAKE UP.


----------



## treelover (Jun 20, 2008)

Good article by Jonathan Rutherford, who is incidentially one of the few leftists (Compass) to write regularly about the welfare reforms.




> Is this the end of social democracy?
> 
> The BNP is capitalising on the fear and anger caused by the cultural destruction of the working class
> All comments (47)
> ...


----------



## treelover (Jun 20, 2008)

btw, it is clear the SWP are now going to make anti-fascism, their main focus: what a disaster, who will take them seriously?.Then again, LMHR will allow their ageing members a chance to feel hip again and for the older men to hit on young women, been a lack of them for a while hasn't there.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 20, 2008)

Not a bad article that.


----------



## treelover (Jun 20, 2008)

John is a decent guy, and unlike much of the left his focus in on the poor and working class


----------



## adc069975 (Jun 20, 2008)

IMO Labour realised, to some extent, what they were doing. But they were elected as a party of big-business. The left embraced neo-liberalism, in favour of identity politics while no longer offering social reform to the working class (and undermining the notion itself), making said identity politics divisive - that is where it went wrong. This has allowed the far-right to seep in.



> On 25 April 1996 Robin Cook and Paddy Ashdown shared a bottle of whisky in a Birmingham hotel and foresaw the toxic side effects of New Labour. Ashdown told his diary that Cook said: 'A number of us on the moderate Left of the party are becoming increasingly concerned that we are abandoning the underclass and our historic mission to work for the poor in favour of the middle class.'
> 
> Ignoring the dispossessed would be 'deadly', replied Ashdown. They would 'turn to the extreme Right'. 'That is exactly the problem,' said Cook. 'And it's the way we are going unless we are careful. There are a lot of us determined to make sure that we start mentioning the poor again.'
> 
> Cook's resistance was a huge failure. Neither he nor anyone else could prevent the Prime Minister and Chancellor converting to the dogma that meritocratic millionaires need not feel guilty about their fortunes - for if the poor had any merit they would be rich too - and providing an opening for the British National Party in the process.


----------



## audiotech (Jun 20, 2008)

treelover said:


> John is a decent guy, and unlike much of the left his focus in on the poor and working class



Yes, but I note still attached to Labour who has delivered fuck all and you foolishly follow behind.


----------



## JimPage (Jun 20, 2008)

More elections...

3rd July Corsham TC- Corsham ward 

10th July Chichester DC Bury Ward and Wigan MDC Wigan West
TBC on 10th July Redbridge Cranbrook Ward


----------



## mk12 (Jun 21, 2008)

treelover said:


> John is a decent guy, and unlike much of the left his focus in on the poor and working class



I read that today. Although it's sound politically, it was very short. Good nonetheless.

Did anyone read the comments below that article?

"But, I am pretty sure NuLabour could be described as Fascist."


----------



## trevhagl (Jun 21, 2008)

mk12 said:


> I read that today. Although it's sound politically, it was very short. Good nonetheless.
> 
> Did anyone read the comments below that article?
> 
> "But, I am pretty sure NuLabour could be described as Fascist."



Yeah well wanting to spy on your citizens and jail them for 42 days without charge is about as nazi as you can get...


----------



## mk12 (Jun 21, 2008)

I thought murdering 6 million Jews was "as nazi as you can get".


----------



## JimPage (Jun 21, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Not a bad article that.



One of a series of recent articles which shows thant, in my opinion, antiascists are realising that Barnbrook on the GLA in particular shows we are in changed times. Even searchlight seems to be more downbeat nowdays (unlike the sattelite sites like Lancaster Unity whose cretinous writing team think it is business as usual)

Eyes on Henley by election next week- where labour, according to the bookies, are not going to save their despoit there. That leaves an outside chance of BNP coming 3rd, although i think they will come 6th behind Greens and UKIP, who have both fought the seat twice before.


----------



## trevhagl (Jun 21, 2008)

mk12 said:


> I thought murdering 6 million Jews was "as nazi as you can get".



No they didn't do it, no jews were harmed in the making of WW2...according to Griffin!!


----------



## audiotech (Jun 21, 2008)

Notice that LU are going for an *adult* anti-fascist forum starting tomorrow.


----------



## geoff64 (Jun 21, 2008)

MC5 said:


> Notice that LU are going for an *adult* anti-fascist forum starting tomorrow.




what's LU?


----------



## The Black Hand (Jun 22, 2008)

JimPage said:


> i think they will come 6th behind Greens and UKIP, who have both fought the seat twice before.



I think you are right Jim. Anybody been to henley? I have! Talk about toff country...


----------



## The Black Hand (Jun 22, 2008)

geoff64 said:


> what's LU?



London Union - short for Uni of London Union?


----------



## durruti02 (Jun 22, 2008)

lancaster unity geoff! the lot who liked the HI leaflet! 

http://www.unitywebring.com/forum/yabb/


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 23, 2008)

Their second attamept at starting a forum - the first one failing due to people sussing them for the searchlight cover group they are.


----------



## audiotech (Jun 23, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Their second attamept at starting a forum - the first one failing due to people sussing them for the searchlight cover group they are.



I don't think they're a cover for anyone. Looking at two of the main moderators, one is an ex-fascist, the other I think is a tory supporter, or an ex-tory supporter. Now, you're likely to come back and say 'prime Searchlight material', but again I think you'ld be wrong.

They may support Searchlight, but a 'supporter' is somewhat different to a 'cover group' whatever that means?


----------



## JimPage (Jun 23, 2008)

MC5 said:


> I don't think they're a cover for anyone. Looking at two of the main moderators, one is an ex-fascist, the other I think is a tory supporter, or an ex-tory supporter. Now, you're likely to come back and say 'prime Searchlight material', but again I think you'ld be wrong.
> 
> They may support Searchlight, but a 'supporter' is somewhat different to a 'cover group' whatever that means?



Well they have a close working realationship with Searchlight (as do their chums an Lancaster Unity), and accept whatever off cuts of information Searchlight dont need for their website. They link to Searchlight, and are primarilly responsible, due to Garsides woeful "election analysis" of trying to explain to the left that the BNP`s electoral performance recently has been abysmal- when most of the results prove exactly the opposite


----------



## JimPage (Jun 23, 2008)

few more elections
17 July Redditch BC Batchley 
          Worcs CC Arrow Valley East
          Hillingdon Townfield Ward ( plus NF)


----------



## audiotech (Jun 23, 2008)

JimPage said:


> Well they have a close working realationship with Searchlight (as do their chums an Lancaster Unity), and accept whatever off cuts of information Searchlight dont need for their website. They link to Searchlight, and are primarilly responsible, due to Garsides woeful "election analysis" of trying to explain to the left that the BNP`s electoral performance recently has been abysmal- when most of the results prove exactly the opposite



I think you'll find there has been a change on that, particularly after Knowles recent analysis in Searchlight. Yes they will have relationship with Searchlight, along with other anti-fascists groups as it happens, but a 'cover'?

Apparently, Joe Owens has been spotted on there in an observational role.


----------



## JimPage (Jun 24, 2008)

MC5 said:


> I think you'll find there has been a change on that, particularly after Knowles recent analysis in Searchlight. Yes they will have relationship with Searchlight, along with other anti-fascists groups as it happens, but a 'cover'?
> 
> Apparently, Joe Owens has been spotted on there in an observational role.



you are right in that every groups seems to be going through a neccessary  re-appriasal of what they do and why they do it, so it is probably unfair. new alliances seem to be broken and made recently


----------



## JimPage (Jun 24, 2008)

Current election list of BNP Canddaites in by elections

27 June
Henley parliament seat
Hatfield Central ward
Blackpool Park Ward

3 July
Bexley Christchurch Ward
Barking Chadwell Heath ward
Havering South Hornchurch ward
Derbyshire CC- Eckington
Corsham TC- Corsham ward 

10 July
Chichester DC Bury Ward
Wigan MDC Wigan West
Redbridge Cranbrook Ward

17 July
Redditch BC Batchley 
Worcs CC Arrow Valley East
Hillingdon Townfield Ward (plus NF)


----------



## The Black Hand (Jun 26, 2008)

Look at this off Indymedia - very good and very funny. it does the Nazi noncy and BNP boys no favours;

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2008/06/401892.html


----------



## KeyboardJockey (Jun 26, 2008)

Attica said:


> Look at this off Indymedia - very good and very funny. it does the Nazi noncy and BNP boys no favours;
> 
> http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2008/06/401892.html



Even though I gave up on Indymedia ages ago as it became full of conspiraloons, anti semites masquarading as anti zionists and other assorted loons I've got to admit they've pulled a blinder on this one.

Well done!


----------



## audiotech (Jun 26, 2008)

Another fucking idiot. This time BNP supporter.


----------



## KeyboardJockey (Jun 26, 2008)

MC5 said:


> Another fucking idiot. This time BNP supporter.



Yup.  Looks like he is going to be removed from circulation for a while even if it is in a hospital for the politically insane.  (mind you can anyone define politically _sane_)


----------



## durruti02 (Jun 27, 2008)

hatfield central 
lab         425 
lib dem    329 
con        319
 bnp       138 
ind          68
1280 bnp = er over 10% 11%??

http://www.welhat.gov.uk/councildemocracy/elections/byelectionhatfieldcentralward

blackpool 

con        977
lab         448
bnp        218
libdem      97 
ukip         30

http://conservativehome.blogs.com/goldlist/2008/06/some-9pm-observ.html

the tories are crowing about this one .. solid working class apparently 'largest council estate in lancs' etc etc 

two solid votes again for bnps but feel tories are stopping them go further .. ( not sure re hatfield .. the tory is listed as a 'local conservative' what is that??)  and ukip are yes finished i think


----------



## audiotech (Jun 27, 2008)

As an aside, but apparently true Griffin's old man has just become a grand master in the freemasons.  wtf!

Link over on LU forum confirming this with pics of said father in pinny.


----------



## geoff64 (Jun 27, 2008)

i joined the LU forum and posted once to say "hello" and i've been banned! 

No idea what this is about.

Should I try n register again, or just accept they don't like me?


----------



## audiotech (Jun 27, 2008)

geoff64 said:


> i joined the LU forum and posted once to say "hello" and i've been banned!
> 
> No idea what this is about.
> 
> Should I try n register again, or just accept they don't like me?



Was it just 'hello'?


----------



## JimPage (Jun 28, 2008)

geoff64 said:


> i joined the LU forum and posted once to say "hello" and i've been banned!
> 
> No idea what this is about.
> 
> Should I try n register again, or just accept they don't like me?



They will know from here that you wish to talk about politics and not about Mark Colletts todger, so will probably have banned you for that. Perhaps try a few homophobic comments about Barnbrook - they may print those.


----------



## geoff64 (Jun 29, 2008)

MC5 said:


> Was it just 'hello'?



there was a thread about no platform - whether fash should be tolerated on the forum.  i said hello and basically said 'no, we need to spend time arguing stuff amongst ourselves w/out the distraction of abusing the oppo'

next time i tried to log on i was locked out ...


----------



## audiotech (Jun 29, 2008)

geoff64 said:


> there was a thread about no platform - whether fash should be tolerated on the forum.  i said hello and basically said 'no, we need to spend time arguing stuff amongst ourselves w/out the distraction of abusing the oppo'
> 
> next time i tried to log on i was locked out ...



I expressed the same view, as did others on there and still logging on.

Must be a glitch.

Try re-registering?


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 30, 2008)

I think Jim has got the tenor of the forum right. It's ideal if you want to read propoganda about how the BNP vote is tiny, not a reflection of any underlying movement, how they're about to split and so on - all mixed together with the lamest attempts at humour from adults i've seen for some time. Perfect fare for a few posters here.


----------



## LLETSA (Jul 1, 2008)

mk12 said:


> I thought murdering 6 million Jews was "as nazi as you can get".





There are various degrees of Naziness.


----------



## JimPage (Jul 1, 2008)

On matters BNP, no leadership challenge this year from Colin Auty as he coudl not get the 100 signatures required from BNP members.


----------



## durruti02 (Jul 1, 2008)

JimPage said:


> On matters BNP, no leadership challenge this year from Colin Auty as he coudl not get the 100 signatures required from BNP members.


 well thats the end of the bnp in kirkless for now!  has he been expelled yet?


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 1, 2008)

*News from Antifa*

Griffin Goes To Norfolk-Cars attacked during BNP meeting 


Several members of a far-right political party had their cars vandalised whilst the group held a meeting in a village near Norwich, it has emerged.

Windscreens were smashed, paint was sprayed across vehicles and paint stripper was poured over three cars parked at the Stoke Mill Conference Centre and Restaurant in Stoke Holy Cross.

Around 100 supporters and members of the British Nationalist Party (BNP) had gathered at the venue for a meeting on Monday evening.

But whilst the meeting was going on, vandals went into the car park and carried out the attack.

A Stoke Holy Cross villager, who did not want to be named, said: “I was cycling past and looked at the car park as there were so many cars parked there. I noticed that one vehicle, a Mitsubishi 4x4, was really badly damaged and another had what looked like goo all over it.

“The third had abuse directed at the BNP sprayed on it. I saw all the people suddenly come out - they had Enoch Powell badges on and I cycled away quickly.”

Today, Ludo Iaccarino, who runs the restaurant and conference centre in Mill Road with his parents, said he did not know who had booked the room until they arrived on Tuesday evening.

And he said more than 100 attended the meeting, when only 50 people were due to turn up.

He added: “Someone came to us to say they wanted to hold a meeting. We didn't know what meeting it was. We are a family business.

“We neither support or are anti the group.”

Today, Nick Griffin, the BNP's leader who was famously cleared of inciting racial hatred in 2006 after attacking Islam, said there had been a lot of support for the group at the Norfolk meeting and they had not received an attack of this kind for years.

He said: “The last time something like this happened was in Halifax three years ago. It's no particular surprise among older hands.”

Police were called to deal with the criminal damage and confirmed that three vehicles had been targeted.

A spokeswoman for Norfolk Constabulary said: “The damage happened between 7.35pm and 8.10pm. Two of the vehicles had windows smashed and all three had what is believed to have been paint stripper poured onto them. This is an area frequented by the public and in particular by local dog walkers.

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2008/06/401007.html


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 3, 2008)

THis is funny;

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2008/07/402522.html


----------



## treelover (Jul 4, 2008)

Actually over 100 punters turning out for a meeting outside a major city is the big news, the other bit will just increase their support, 80's redux, innit


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 4, 2008)

Awful crap and just LUAF/searchlight promo material. Back in the real world.

Christchurch Ward (Bexley)

Labour Party 411 
British National Party 431 
Liberal Democrats 459 
Conservative Party 1192 

Total Votes Cast 2493 
Turnout 29.63%

Can anyone do the %s?

About 17%?

edit: two more results to come.


----------



## treelover (Jul 4, 2008)

Is that in Kent, Ted Heath's old seat?


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 4, 2008)

I believe it is. But counts as london.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 4, 2008)

Second result in -very near miss:

*South Hornchurch Ward*

Residents Association of London	17	
Independent 661	Elected
Labour 416	
UK Independence Party 64	
Conservative 438	
*British National Party 518	*
English Democrats - 'Putting England First!' 28	
Mark Ronald Whitehead 17	
Havering Residents Association 287

Good old mix up there. BNP coming out on near on top not good. Again, i'm too thick to do the %s.


----------



## treelover (Jul 4, 2008)

BA, do you think the attacks on the BNP punters will be counterproductive, i imagine for some people this will be their first political meeting and will be scared
off, for others, i think it will make then more determined and angry.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 4, 2008)

Which ones? Do you mean the car windows getting put through as reported above? Neither here nor there really in all honesty. The game isn't being played there - that stuff is just froth. Doesn't effect things one way or the other. The problem comes when that approach is argued for as the answer to to the wider problem. And there are still some people clinging to that.


----------



## JHE (Jul 4, 2008)

South Hornchurch Ward
Total votes:  2446
BNP vote:  518

BNP percentage:  (518/2446) X 100 = 21.18%


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 4, 2008)

Ta, that makes the other one 17.2%

(is that how you do %s, well i've learnt something today)


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 4, 2008)

*Chadwell Heath *
Conservative 842 
Labour 691 
BNP 564  (25%)
UKIP 142
IND 11

and one i missed

Derbyshire County Council
Eckington Ward

Lab 824 
Con 658 
Ind 1 300 
BNP 253 (11%)
Ind 150 
Lib Dem 113


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 4, 2008)

So 11%, 25%, 17% and 21%. In London & east mids.


----------



## treelover (Jul 4, 2008)

Eckington is an old mining village, that may explain the lower vote for the BNP


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 4, 2008)

treelover said:


> BA, do you think the attacks on the BNP punters will be counterproductive, i imagine for some people this will be their first political meeting and will be scared
> off, for others, i think it will make then more determined and angry.



These are the reactions in the real world as opposed to the OTT ultra political world of Big Arse. Of course some will be scared, some will not like the idea of having to fork out the extra money for the damages of being associated with the BNP. 

There are some no matter what you did to them who won't change, but thankfully they are in an absolute minority.

In short it is a good thing this happened, the only problem is that it doesn't happen enough.


----------



## mk12 (Jul 4, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> So 11%, 25%, 17% and 21%. In London & east mids.



The left would love to get results like that.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 4, 2008)

mk12 said:


> The left would love to get results like that.



FFS how many times have i heard that shite before - ahistorical apolitical atheoretical and apractical crap. 

I called you a cuckoo before and I was right


----------



## mk12 (Jul 4, 2008)

Would the Left List be happy with those results?


----------



## LLETSA (Jul 4, 2008)

Attica said:


> There are some no matter what you did to them who won't change, but thankfully they are in an absolute minority.




If only this could be said of what remains of the radical left.


----------



## audiotech (Jul 4, 2008)

mk12 said:


> Would the Left List be happy with those results?



This threads about the BNP.


----------



## LLETSA (Jul 4, 2008)

MC5 said:


> This threads about the BNP.






You don't say. So would the far-left be happy with the same level of support that the BNP's average share of the vote indicates they have at present or not?


----------



## audiotech (Jul 4, 2008)

LLETSA said:


> You don't say. So would the far-left be happy with the same level of support that the BNP's average share of the vote indicates they have at present or not?



You might want to start a new dumb question thread elsewhere, because I can't be arsed with your petty games.


----------



## LLETSA (Jul 4, 2008)

MC5 said:


> You might want to start a new dumb question thread elsewhere, because I can't be arsed with your petty games.





The Biggest Waste of Time-Attica (aka Mr Deluded) or the King of Platitude himself, Mr MC5?

You decide.


----------



## audiotech (Jul 4, 2008)

LLETSA said:


> The Biggest Waste of Time-Attica (aka Mr Deluded) or the King of Platitude himself, Mr MC5?
> 
> You decide.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 4, 2008)

LLETSA said:


> If only this could be said of what remains of the radical left.



What is left of the radical left IS the minority - over 90% of lefties are nowhere near the 'organised' groups.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 4, 2008)

LLETSA said:


> You don't say. So would the far-left be happy with the same level of support that the BNP's average share of the vote indicates they have at present or not?




This is what I think of that statement - it was crap in the first place and it is still crap;


"FFS how many times have i heard that shite before - ahistorical apolitical atheoretical and apractical crap"...


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 4, 2008)

LLETSA said:


> The Biggest Waste of Time-Attica (aka Mr Deluded) or the King of Platitude himself, Mr MC5?
> 
> You decide.



The biggest tosser on the board is Letsa. You decide.


----------



## LLETSA (Jul 4, 2008)

Attica said:


> What is left of the radical left IS the minority - over 90% of lefties are nowhere near the 'organised' groups.






Attica is the only person in the world able to confirm this fact. 

It's amazing what powers a mastery of praxis can bestow.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 4, 2008)

LLETSA said:


> Attica (aka Mr Deluded)



Seriously SHit head. 

What are my delusions????

I would dearly like to know - i think you're full of crap and you will be until you display what my so-called 'delusions' are pls.

I suggest it is lazy sloppy reactionary thinking by you...


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 4, 2008)

LLETSA said:


> Attica is the only person in the world able to confirm this fact.
> 
> It's amazing what powers a mastery of praxis can bestow.



You don't get around much Letty - you need to get out of your parochial old leftism/area. I've met many many people who are left and not in the organised left. I do not think my experience is unique. THe strength of the left in this country shouldn't be under estimated - remember the million on the march in 2003. No - i don't think you do remember. You do not want to remember.


----------



## LLETSA (Jul 4, 2008)

Attica said:


> You don't get around much Letty - you need to get out of your parochial old leftism/area. I've met many many people who are left and not in the organised left. I do not think my experience is unique. THe strength of the left in this country shouldn't be under estimated - remember the million on the march in 2003. No - i don't think you do remember. You do not want to remember.




Most of that million were not left wing in any meaningful sense, or even at all.



Note for the uninitiated: those whom Attica says he has met are to be regarded as representative of what is going in throughout the UK. If not the world.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 4, 2008)

LLETSA said:


> Most of that million were not left wing in any meaningful sense, or even at all.
> 
> 
> 
> Note for the uninitiated: those whom Attica says he has met are to be regarded as representative of what is going in throughout the UK. If not the world.



Note for the uninitiated. Letsa the sad old lefty is a small minded dork who knows nothing of class struggle, labour movement history - or politics for that matter.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 4, 2008)

LLETSA said:


> Most of that million were not left wing in any meaningful sense, or even at all.



Wrong! Go to the bottom of the pile. 

You mean not in the meaning you would like.


----------



## LLETSA (Jul 4, 2008)

Attica said:


> Note for the uninitiated. Letsa the sad old lefty is a small minded dork who knows nothing of class struggle, labour movement history - or politics for that matter.





And what's more-he hasn't got a fucking clue what praxis is supposed to mean and doesn't even care.


----------



## LLETSA (Jul 4, 2008)

Attica said:


> Wrong! Go to the bottom of the pile.
> 
> You mean not in the meaning you would like.





No-I mean not left wing at all. If they were, many of that million would be in evidence in wider left politics (and I don't necessarily mean the organised left.) They are not.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 4, 2008)

LLETSA said:


> And what's more-he hasn't got a fucking clue what praxis is supposed to mean and doesn't even care.



No, he does know but he pretends not too. Same old dishonest leftism.... Do not trust


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 4, 2008)

LLETSA said:


> No-I mean not left wing at all. If they were, many of that million would be in evidence in wider left politics (and I don't necessarily mean the organised left.) They are not.



I think you'll find that a lot already are as you say - you just don't have a purchase on the zeitgeist of the times...


----------



## LLETSA (Jul 4, 2008)

Attica said:


> I think you'll find that a lot already are as you say - you just don't have a purchase on the zeitgeist of the times...





Sorry-I was forgetting about the parallel universe.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 4, 2008)

LLETSA said:


> Sorry-I was forgetting about the parallel universe.



In denial again!! How do you do this lying prolier than thou crap you old lefty?


----------



## JimPage (Jul 4, 2008)

As to the rersults yesterday
Bexley Result- up from 11.1% to 17% in the ward since May 2008
Barking Result- up from 18.7 % to 25.1% in the ward since May 2008

but
Havering result down from 24.2 to 21.1 % since May 2008. However winning candidate in this ward supported by Third Way/ National Liberals and some rightwing independants. And the new councillor is Black- making him the first, to my reckoning, black and fascist-freindly councillor in Britain (if you ignore Phil Andrews mob in Hounslow that is)

The havering ward is in Cruddas`s new Dagenham and Rainham seat- and labour came fourth  in this ward.........
Botht e


----------



## treelover (Jul 4, 2008)

> However winning candidate in this ward supported by Third Way/ National Liberals and some rightwing independants. And the new councillor is Black- making him the first, to my reckoning, black and fascist-freindly councillor in Britain (if you ignore Phil Andrews mob in Hounslow that is)





Eh, he sounds like he has changed, 

'





> 8. As Executive Lead Member for Community Safety Councillor Phil Andrews chairs the campaigning and co-ordinating group Hounslow Against Racial Harassment, and has taken the lead in initiatives against racism, homophobia and hate crime around the borough.  He recently presented the Cantle Report on Community Cohesion to to the Council Executive and has spoken on the threat of racism and his experiences as a former far-right activist at national venues alongside senior political figures from all of the major parties.


----------



## treelover (Jul 4, 2008)

> Tess Culnane is also standing for the NF in the Haltemprice and Howden by-election, 2008 to be held on 10 July.






btw, not a slur, but i wonder how many of the far right are of Irish descent, I seem to recall it has been discussed on here and MATB, this candidate name sounds Irish


----------



## mk12 (Jul 5, 2008)

Would the Left List be happy with those results?


----------



## JHE (Jul 5, 2008)

mk12 said:


> Would the Left List be happy with those results?



The Social Workers would be wetting themselves with delight and gibbering even more of their usual twaddle.

We _all_ know that.  That includes one or two people who might prefer not give a straight answer to your question.  They know it too.


----------



## audiotech (Jul 5, 2008)

JHE said:


> The Social Workers would be wetting themselves with delight and gibbering even more of their usual twaddle.
> 
> We _all_ know that.  That includes one or two people who might prefer not give a straight answer to your question.  They know it too.



If all know the answer what's the point of the daft question then?


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 5, 2008)

To make a comparison, one that might lead to some critical self-reflexion on the part of the BNP is dead/dying crowd. But no, blunder onwards.


----------



## mk12 (Jul 5, 2008)

MC5 said:


> If all know the answer what's the point of the daft question then?



Would you be happy if the left start polling those results?


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 5, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> To make a comparison, one that might lead to some critical self-reflexion on the part of the BNP is dead/dying crowd. But no, blunder onwards.



What about to 'the BNP are an irritating but not doing much beyond existing crowd'? That is the sort of middle position between your 2 extremes - 'the BNP are doing supa yah'! and the BNP collapsing posse...


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 5, 2008)

mk12 said:


> Would you be happy if the left start polling those results?



Its a fekking stooopid question asked by the stooopid


----------



## mk12 (Jul 5, 2008)

I am going to take that as a "yes" attica.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 5, 2008)

mk12 said:


> I am going to take that as a "yes" attica.



No - that's wrong. It's a question I am refusing to answer cos it is crap. There are far other and better ideas and lines of argument than that. It is seriously shite.


----------



## geoff64 (Jul 5, 2008)

Attica said:


> No - that's wrong. It's a question I am refusing to answer cos it is crap. There are far other and better ideas and lines of argument than that. It is seriously shite.



Is it crap cos you hold an "ultra-left" anarchist position that opposes voting, or for another reason?

anyway, seriously, why do you think it's crap?

i would have thought that if you were part of a left that did contest elections, or support left groups that stood in elections, then this was a reasonable Q.  Would you like to have the success that the BNP have managed to accrue?  I can think of a few reasons why you might think it an irrelevant Q, but what are your's?


----------



## mk12 (Jul 5, 2008)

I just think it's hypocritical to claim the BNP are doing poorly, whilst accepting that the left would love to get the results the BNP keep achieving, consistently.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 6, 2008)

Attica said:


> What about to 'the BNP are an irritating but not doing much beyond existing crowd'? That is the sort of middle position between your 2 extremes - 'the BNP are doing supa yah'! and the BNP collapsing posse...



Incidentally that is where my opinion lies - between the ultra left on one side (IWCA/Butchers arse) and the Searchlight clan on the other. It is part of the area of autonomy


----------



## LLETSA (Jul 6, 2008)

Attica said:


> Incidentally that is where my opinion lies - between the ultra left on one side (IWCA/Butchers arse) and the Searchlight clan on the other. It is part of the area of autonomy






Unfortunately, the area of autonomy is located in an obscure corner of the universe.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 6, 2008)

LLETSA said:


> Unfortunately, the area of autonomy is located in an obscure corner of the universe.



Au contraire - that is the large middle ground where most people are You ultra left freaks are the ones on your own.


----------



## LLETSA (Jul 6, 2008)

Attica said:


> Au contraire - that is the large middle ground where most people are





I will remind people of this when I go to the pub later.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 6, 2008)

LLETSA said:


> I will remind people of this when I go to the pub later.



You know, the sort of million people who go on anti war marches... Eat my shorts.


----------



## audiotech (Jul 6, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> To make a comparison, one that might lead to some critical self-reflexion on the part of the BNP is dead/dying crowd. But no, blunder onwards.



You've made the blunder. Point to where I've said the BNP were dying, or dead?


----------



## audiotech (Jul 6, 2008)

mk12 said:


> Would you be happy if the left start polling those results?



Being 'happy' about some electoral gain is 'politics for dummy's'.


----------



## JHE (Jul 6, 2008)

Attica said:


> Incidentally that is where my opinion lies - between the ultra left on one side (IWCA/Butchers arse) and the Searchlight clan on the other. It is part of the area of autonomy





Attica said:


> Au contraire - that is the large middle ground where most people are You ultra left freaks are the ones on your own.



If most people agree with you, Brig, the sooner you stand for election the better!  Don't bother waiting for Dave Douglas or anyone else to change his mind.  You are the man of the hour, the people's tribune.


----------



## mk12 (Jul 6, 2008)

MC5 said:


> Being 'happy' about some electoral gain is 'politics for dummy's'.



You're an anti-electoral anarchist now


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 6, 2008)

JHE said:


> If most people agree with you, Brig, the sooner you stand for election the better!  Don't bother waiting for Dave Douglas or anyone else to change his mind.  You are the man of the hour, the people's tribune.



My ideas are in everybodies heads


----------



## audiotech (Jul 7, 2008)

mk12 said:


> You're an anti-electoral anarchist now



No, that appears to be you?


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 7, 2008)

This is bad news for the BNP and *good news for anti fascists *everywhere It shows how thoroughly offensive and Nazi many of them openly are...

From the Socialist Unity site;

On a more personal note, I was pleased to see that in my neck of the woods, BNP Wiltshire organizer, Mike Howsman, was soundly thrashed in Corsham Ward for Corsham Town Council. The BNP won a set in Corsham last year because their candidate stood unopposed. Their poor result in this election undermines the credibility of their existing councillor, Michael Simkins.

Incidently, Mike Howsman is a nasty character. The Bath Chronicle exposed how his bebo account (like MySpace) had links to white supremacist sites (even ones prominently displaying swastikas), but most of the people linking to his site were between 16 and 20 years of age, and whom Howsman had built up links with through infiltrating the Air Cadet Corps.

Corsham Town Council, Wilts.
Lib-Dem – 676 (40.6%)
Con – 399 (24.0%)
Ind – 172 (10.3%)
Ind – 147 (8.8%)
BNP - 119 (7.3%)


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 7, 2008)

Shades of Nuremburg? Looks like they are gonna do a Nazi rally - isn't it time for a national left response in Stoke?

http://www.stopthebnp.org.uk/index.php?location=news&art=993


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 7, 2008)

It was yesterday.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 7, 2008)

This election result in Bexley shows that BNP votes - 17% - have come overwhelmingly from the Tories - it is the Tory vote which plummeted here with the BNP standing for the first time;

http://www.aldc.org/-blog/article/187/03/07/2008/Bexley_LBC,_Christchurch


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 7, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> It was yesterday.



You're a bit slow then putting it on this thread.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 8, 2008)

Been looking at the numbers from the May local election results to see what's behind the national vote. Looking at England alone (London excluded as well) they had 343 seats where their vote was over 10%, the majority of them 15%+, and 82 seats in which they came 2nd. Here's the city/town %s in those areas where they've either had past success or stood large slates.

Barnsley - (21 seats contested) average vote across city = 17.36%
Calderdale (9) AV = 16%
Kirkless (20) 14.3%
Leeds (34) 11.2%
Rotherman (5) 27.9%
Wakefield (12) 20.48%
Basildon (14) 14.6%
Broxbourne (12) 15.35%
Epping Forest Loughton (14) 15%
Epping Forest DC (12) 15.5%
Thurrock (19) 21.7%
Southend (17) 10%
Brum (40) 7.5%
Stoke (11) 25.9%
Coventry (13) 11.2%
Dudely (11) 14.5%
Sandwell (12) 17.26%
Nuneanton and Bedworth (12) 20.77%
Solihull (12) 13.47%
Amber valley (7) 26.25%
Lincoln (5) 12.14%
Burnley (11) 21.89%
Bury (8) 11.11%
Carlisle (5) 16.3%
Liverpool (11) 9%
Oldham (5) 16.8%
Pendle (7) 30.43%
Salford (9) 12.48%
St Helens (5) 8.5%
Tameside (8) 21.75%
Wigan (7) 11.2%
Stockport (6) 10.5%)
Sunderland (25) 10.97%
Durham (30) 10.48%
Newcastle (12) 11.37%
South Tyneside (13) 13.18%
North Tyneside (5) 11.56%
Gateshead (12) 11.8%

It should be remembered that these seats are ones they they were returing to after the 2004 breakthrough - this would tell us whether we were seeing a simple BNP protest vote that would melt away once it was realised how inept the BNP were, or if we were seeing some genuine roots being laid down.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 8, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Been looking at the numbers from the May local election results to see what's behind the national vote. Looking at England alone (London excluded as well) they had 343 seats where their vote was over 10%, the majority of them 15%+, and 82 seats in which they came 2nd. Here's the city/town %s in those areas where they've either had past success or stood large slates.
> 
> Barnsley - (21 seats contested) average vote across city = 17.36%
> Calderdale (9) AV = 16%
> ...



SO you are saying that there are no BNP genuine social roots being put down.

Also I am not sure about the inclusion of Liverpool in your list - 11 is not a large slate out of 60 odd, and 9% is not a high vote. So on your own terms its curious.


----------



## mk12 (Jul 9, 2008)

> they had 343 seats where their vote was over 10%, the majority of them 15%+, and 82 seats in which they came 2nd



They're close to death butchers.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 9, 2008)

mk12 said:


> They're close to death butchers.



U need to keep up - I have said I'm not in the 'BNP are dead camp'. I am asking you to define your terms - which is basic politics and should not be difficult at all. However, for you fools it appears that it is.

Eg. - for comparison how many seats did labour have with their vote over 10%? And how many where they came 2nd? THousands I imagine - Butchers is producing stats with NOTHING for comparison which is 'reality lite' sociology and politics. Have you heard the phrase 'Pop sociology' - well that is what Butchers produces - it is next to worthless.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Jul 9, 2008)

Attica said:


> U need to keep up - I have said I'm not in the 'BNP are dead camp'. I am asking you to define your terms - which is basic politics and should not be difficult at all. However, for you fools it appears that it is.
> 
> Eg. - for comparison how many seats did labour have with their vote over 10%? And how many where they came 2nd? THousands I imagine - Butchers is producing stats with NOTHING for comparison which is 'reality lite' sociology and politics. Have you heard the phrase 'Pop sociology' - well that is what Butchers produces - it is next to worthless.



The comparison is with their past performance.

Louis MacNeice


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 9, 2008)

Louis MacNeice said:


> The comparison is with their past performance.
> 
> Louis MacNeice



DOh! It has to be next to it (or linked)  or it is worthless. It is no good saying 'it exists', honest.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Jul 9, 2008)

Attica said:


> DOh! It has to be next to it (or linked)  or it is worthless. It is no good saying 'it exists', honest.



Originally posted by BA:

"Been looking at the numbers from the May local election results to see what's behind the national vote. Looking at England alone (London excluded as well) they had 343 seats where their vote was over 10%, the majority of them 15%+, and 82 seats in which they came 2nd. Here's the city/town %s in those areas where they've either had past success or stood large slates.

Barnsley - (21 seats contested) average vote across city = 17.36%
Calderdale (9) AV = 16%
Kirkless (20) 14.3%
Leeds (34) 11.2%
Rotherman (5) 27.9%
Wakefield (12) 20.48%
Basildon (14) 14.6%
Broxbourne (12) 15.35%
Epping Forest Loughton (14) 15%
Epping Forest DC (12) 15.5%
Thurrock (19) 21.7%
Southend (17) 10%
Brum (40) 7.5%
Stoke (11) 25.9%
Coventry (13) 11.2%
Dudely (11) 14.5%
Sandwell (12) 17.26%
Nuneanton and Bedworth (12) 20.77%
Solihull (12) 13.47%
Amber valley (7) 26.25%
Lincoln (5) 12.14%
Burnley (11) 21.89%
Bury (8) 11.11%
Carlisle (5) 16.3%
Liverpool (11) 9%
Oldham (5) 16.8%
Pendle (7) 30.43%
Salford (9) 12.48%
St Helens (5) 8.5%
Tameside (8) 21.75%
Wigan (7) 11.2%
Stockport (6) 10.5%)
Sunderland (25) 10.97%
Durham (30) 10.48%
Newcastle (12) 11.37%
South Tyneside (13) 13.18%
North Tyneside (5) 11.56%
Gateshead (12) 11.8%

It should be remembered that these seats are ones they they were returing to after the 2004 breakthrough - this would tell us whether we were seeing a simple BNP protest vote that would melt away once it was realised how inept the BNP were, or if we were seeing some genuine roots being laid down." 

Louis MacNeice


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 9, 2008)

Attica said:


> DOh! It has to be next to it (or linked)  or it is worthless. It is no good saying 'it exists', honest.



Indeed he did not put them there did he.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Jul 9, 2008)

The first question is do the votes cast represent reasonable levels of support; I'd argue that they do for a small extremist party. The second question is do these result show some evidence of resiliance; given that they are results from areas previously contested again I'd say they do. Taking this view it would seem that BNP's fortunes are waxing rather than waning. Of itself this is concerning. As an indicator of other political challenges facing the us (including but not exclusively the failure of the left to garner support) it is no less worrying.

Louis MacNeice


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 13, 2008)

_BNP round up
by butchersapron on Fri Jul 11, 2008 8:44 am 

3) Kirklees, Dalton ward

Labour McBride, Peter Daniel 1397 Held
LIBDEM Liberal Democrat Munro, Alison Louise 1155 
CON Conservative Leonard, Martin James 605 
BNP British National Party Wright, Jonathan David Baxter 157 
GRN Green Hargreaves, David William 103 
IND Independent Walder, Colin Anthony 34

Bad result for them, down abiout 400 votes, drop in turnout but still bad._

Attica writes -

For the observant among you - you may want to know the % drop in BNP vote - here it is;

71.813285%

*That is the % collapse of the irrelevant, lost and never coming back in one of their so-called 'growth areas'*







PS - % calculated on the stats in front of me/you. 'about 400' added to 157 = 557, and the drop to 157 = a % difference between the 2 figures of 71.813285%.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 13, 2008)

_butchersapron on Fri Jul 11, 2008 12:38 am 

Second nothing ward (still...):


Con 1,625 60.0% +8.4%
Lab 729 26.9% -5.1%
LD 318 11.7% -4.7%
BNP 37 1.4% +1.4%_

Attica writes; 

*37votes for the BNP hahahahahahahhahahahahahahahaha Shite isn't it and aren't they*


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 13, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> It should be remembered that these seats are ones they they were returing to after the 2004 breakthrough - this would tell us whether we were seeing a simple BNP protest vote that would melt away once it was realised how inept the BNP were, or if we were seeing some genuine roots being laid down.



Just to point out a further and fatal flaw to your reasoning - BNP members competance is only seriously tested when elected and they have to function on council meetings. Here they flounder rather badly. So really ButchersArse, you should have only selected the wards where they were ELECTEd and compared them.  

What you have posted is a misleading comparison, and you also failed to post the most important stat and that was the % increase or decrease of the different election years. 

Instead what has been posted is 'stat light' headline stuff which is no basis for a real comparative statistical analysis.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 13, 2008)

Also BNP councillor down - by election looming in that area;

http://www.examiner.co.uk/news/loca...it-s-not-nice-to-live-in-fear-86081-21324874/


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 13, 2008)

11 July 2008 
Source: Searchlight 

Dismal results for BNP
Sonia Gable 

A British National Party candidate won just 37 votes in a by-election in Redbridge, east London. Anthony Young, a retired solicitor, came last out of four candidates, with 1.4%, in Cranbrook ward in the south of the borough, which borders onto Barking and Dagenham, where the BNP has 12 councillors. 

In the days before the election on 10 July, Redbridge and Epping Forest Together distributed a leaflet to most of the ward telling voters the truth about the BNP and urging them to use their vote to “keep extremists out of Redbridge”. The leaflet received praise from the three main parties, who all mounted active campaigns. 

BNP support in Cranbrook was so low that the party had great difficulty finding ten people to sign the nomination form. From the addresses it was clear the BNP had gone down three neighbouring streets knocking on doors of registered electors with English-sounding names. We have so far not been able to investigate an allegation that three of them thought they were signing a petition rather than a nomination form.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 13, 2008)

Ho ho  ho  - more trouble and division within the BNP making them look like wankers

11 July 2008 
Source: Ilford Recorder 

Losing BNP candidate slams his party

THE BRITISH National Party candidate who suffered a crushing defeat in the Cranbrook by-election slated his party's leadership. 

Anthony Young, of Belgrave Road, Ilford, said he couldn't understand why he was put forward as a candidate after Cranbrook ward attracted the lowest number of BNP votes among Redbridge's 21 wards in the May 1 elections. 

Speaking before the polls opened, he said: "If you were to ask me why we bothered to fight this time round I would have to reply that trying to understand what my party's leadership is thinking is like trying to read the mind of God." 

Simon Darby, deputy leader of the BNP, said: "I have no idea why he said that.  

"He shouldn't really be coming up with statements like that. He wasn't pushed into standing. 

"I would suggest that he won't be standing again."  

Mr Young refused to speak to the Recorder over the phone following the Cranbrook by-election, in which the BNP polled just 37 votes.


----------



## mk12 (Jul 13, 2008)

Attica said:


> _butchersapron on Fri Jul 11, 2008 12:38 am
> 
> Second nothing ward (still...):
> 
> ...



Unfortunately that type of result isn't a common one at the moment.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 13, 2008)

More on divisions within the BNP - here there is news of a BNP kangeroo court and dodgy dealings;

http://www.hopenothate.org.uk/Campaign_News_Activist_is_kicked_out_of_BNP-ref998


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 13, 2008)

mk12 said:


> Unfortunately that type of result isn't a common one at the moment.



BUT it is good news and important as it was a ward next to their Prize area of london. That means that it IS possible to contain the scum.


----------



## mk12 (Jul 14, 2008)

True, but as I say, that type of failure is not being replicated elsewhere.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 14, 2008)

mk12 said:


> True, but as I say, that type of failure is not being replicated elsewhere.



Yet.....

DOn't be so staid. That is not dialectical, movement always happens.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 14, 2008)

Here's a link to an anti fascist article;

http://journal-articles.googlegroup...boGG1qiJ7UbTIup-M2XPURDRCtAIzYAd7ET1iMmRpdYsL


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 14, 2008)

Oh look it's another version of your ignored article. Stop spamming a decent thread. And please, bigging up stuff that you wrote yourself is pathetic. Even if it was ignored. At least you're not pretending to be someone else innocently bigging up the same article this time eh? That's a  progression - of sorts.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 14, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Oh look it's another version of you ignored article. Stop spamming a decent thread. And please, bigging up stuff that you wrote yourself is pathetic. Even if it was ignored. At least you're not pretending to be someone else innocently bigging up the same article this time eh? That's a  progression - of sorts.



You've been on the pop too much again Piss head


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 14, 2008)

Attica said:


> Just to point out a further and fatal flaw to your reasoning - BNP members competance is only seriously tested when elected and they have to function on council meetings. Here they flounder rather badly. So really ButchersArse, you should have only selected the wards where they were ELECTEd and compared them.
> 
> What you have posted is a misleading comparison, and you also failed to post the most important stat and that was the % increase or decrease of the different election years.
> 
> Instead what has been posted is 'stat light' headline stuff which is no basis for a real comparative statistical analysis.



I see you, as usual, have no answer to these political flaws eh Butchers


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 14, 2008)

Attica said:


> I see you, as usual, have no answer to these political flaws eh Butchers



Failing to answer serious and fatal flaws in your analysis, *again *Butch!


----------



## JimPage (Jul 14, 2008)

mk12 said:


> Unfortunately that type of result isn't a common one at the moment.



This was their second weakest ward in East London in May 2008 after Spitalfields and Banglatown, so need to understand the conext of this vary rare absymal result by them

As to matters BNP , Colin Auty has resigned from the party ( and his Kirklees council seat) after failing in his leadership bid, whic entrenches Griffin even more. It also puts a huge amount of egg on the Voice of Change faction, who were promoting him as the saviour of their ause until last week.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 14, 2008)

Yes, expect the constitution to be re-written to limit leadership bids to one every 3 (or something like that) years as well.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 14, 2008)

Attica said:


> Failing to answer serious and fatal flaws in your analysis, *again *Butch!



Again.


----------



## durruti02 (Jul 14, 2008)

Attica said:


> _BNP round up
> by butchersapron on Fri Jul 11, 2008 8:44 am
> 
> 3) Kirklees, Dalton ward
> ...



the more observant among us knew long ago that the bnp is all but finished in kirklees for obvious reasons .. it does not disguise the fact ( as you would like it to ) that before the bnp split they well pretty popular there


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 14, 2008)

durruti02 said:


> the more observant among us knew long ago that the bnp is all but finished in kirkless for obvious reasons .. it does not disguise the fact ( as you would like it to ) that before the bnp split they well pretty popular there



Where's kirkless?


----------



## durruti02 (Jul 14, 2008)

Attica said:


> Just to point out a further and fatal flaw to your reasoning - BNP members competance is only seriously tested when elected and they have to function on council meetings. Here they flounder rather badly. So really ButchersArse, you should have only selected the wards where they were ELECTEd and compared them.
> 
> What you have posted is a misleading comparison, and you also failed to post the most important stat and that was the % increase or decrease of the different election years.
> 
> Instead what has been posted is 'stat light' headline stuff which is no basis for a real comparative statistical analysis.



butchers quite reasonably selected those seats they had stood in before and returned too .. if you wish to narrow it to where they were elected please do so  .. 

btw do you think any of us think the bnp make good cllrs? LOL


----------



## durruti02 (Jul 14, 2008)

Louis MacNeice said:


> The first question is;
> do the votes cast represent reasonable levels of support?; I'd argue that they do for a small extremist party.
> 
> The second question is;
> ...



spot on imho 

( apologies for reformating!)


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 14, 2008)

durruti02 said:


> butchers quite reasonably selected those seats they had stood in before and returned too .. if you wish to narrow it to where they were elected please do so  ..
> 
> btw do you think any of us think the bnp make good cllrs? LOL



FFS - he compared it to NOTHING, you couldn't tell how their vote had changed in the years in between - it was a static viewpoint. He included no %%% changes at all so you couldn't come to any conclusions regarding consolidation or atrophy with those percentages. 

Basic understanding basic understanding. You lot are too busy being self referential (Back slapping/supporting each other/being nice etc yak) you have no idea of how bad your politics and analysis are.


----------



## geoff64 (Jul 14, 2008)

This Cranbrook Ward thing is weird.  No wonder the candidate wonders what the BNP leadership was thinking of.  I used to live in that ward.  It is close to Barking and Dagenham - which have been the thinking - but when I lived there over 15 years ago it was a largely Asian area and must be even more so now.  Thought the BNP would do better in the North East of the borough.

Really, the result was entirely predictable.  Like putting up a white supremacist in Whitechapel and wondering why they only get 37 votes


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 15, 2008)

Attica said:


> FFS - he compared it to NOTHING, you couldn't tell how their vote had changed in the years in between - it was a static viewpoint. He included no %%% changes at all so you couldn't come to any conclusions regarding consolidation or atrophy with those percentages.
> 
> Basic understanding basic understanding. You lot are too busy being self referential (Back slapping/supporting each other/being nice etc yak) you have no idea of how bad your politics and analysis are.



Just fort i wud let you all know that this quote reads as accurate as when i first wrote it


----------



## JHE (Jul 15, 2008)

Don Attica, you can nest quotes, you know.  You can quote yourself quoting yourself quoting yourself quoting yourself quoting yourself.  (I expect there is some limit, but it's pretty generous.)




			
				Don Attica said:
			
		

> Don Attica said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



See what I mean, Don?


----------



## Joe Reilly (Jul 15, 2008)

geoff64 said:


> This Cranbrook Ward thing is weird.  No wonder the candidate wonders what the BNP leadership was thinking of.  I used to live in that ward.  It is close to Barking and Dagenham - which have been the thinking - but when I lived there over 15 years ago it was a largely Asian area and must be even more so now.  Thought the BNP would do better in the North East of the borough.
> 
> Really, the result was entirely predictable.  Like putting up a white supremacist in Whitechapel and wondering why they only get 37 votes




There may be a legitimate question mark against why the BNP choose the contest the by-election at all, but can there be any surprises in the self-congratulatory Searchlight analysis neglecting to mention that it is an almost entirely Asian ward.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 15, 2008)

JHE - I know you love following me around but you do tire the patience of a saint ie. Me. 

THe bump was to try to elicit an answer to the post, not because I like bumping per se. Rather than merely bump it, i also provoked the opposition some more in order to encourage their anger so they post more rubbish and get further discredited. Clever eh


----------



## JHE (Jul 15, 2008)

St Attica!  Of course!  Why didn't I realise before?  It's the praxis of badger-saving self-canonisation.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 15, 2008)

JHE said:


> St Attica!  Of course!  Why didn't I realise before?  It's the praxis of badger-saving self-canonisation.



I'll say anything to you you know. I'm the pope now.


----------



## JHE (Jul 15, 2008)

Attica said:


> I'll say anything to you you know. I'm the pope now.



Not just the Cardinal of Cant, you are the very Pope of Praxis.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 15, 2008)

JHE said:


> Not just the Cardinal of Cant, you are the very Pope of Praxis.



I'm a bishop.


----------



## durruti02 (Jul 15, 2008)

Attica said:


> FFS - he compared it to NOTHING, you couldn't tell how their vote had changed in the years in between - it was a static viewpoint. He included no %%% changes at all so you couldn't come to any conclusions regarding consolidation or atrophy with those percentages.
> 
> Basic understanding basic understanding. You lot are too busy being self referential (Back slapping/supporting each other/being nice etc yak) you have no idea of how bad your politics and analysis are.



ok whatever .. now please post the stats you want other people to post for you


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 15, 2008)

durruti02 said:


> ok whatever .. now please post the stats you want other people to post for you



Give over - he was full of hot air - pretending he was showing statistics for a serious comparative analysis! HE DID NOT...  

Pardon me for saying the 'emporer has no clothes', but that has been painfully obvious for a considerable amount of time now...


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 21, 2008)

*Blimey - More Good News*

One nasty dead ex BNP fascist who won't darken people's lives again;

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2008/07/404308.html

THe little shit couldn't even stand himself - so he topped himself. The only good Nazi is a DEAD ONE


----------



## Cockneyboy (Jul 23, 2008)

Just joined today and have not read most of the previous comments on this topic.
Immigration(for me anyway) is an extremely complex issue and one thing I have learned in my 50+ years is that ones stance primarily depends on ones own circumstances.In London where I've always lived,either in the heart of or the surrounding Suburbs peoples views are,invariably,shaped by their age and other pertinent factors.
While I could never entertain voting for a Party like The BNP I have to forewarn that there is a genuine and simmering resentment amongst countless Whites in England circa 2008...
The problem is this,as I see it:Its one thing being a civilised,tolerant Nation accepting degrees of responsibilty for our "less"-than-illustrious Empirical past and accepting genuine refugees from all over where there is a desperate necessity to escape from theor own lands i.e.Somalia would be an example....however the fact is that the overwhelming majority of people DO "choose" to live amongst their own,whether we like the fact or not.Certainly most Asians would be happy to live entirely and exclusively in all-Asian areas.Most Jewish people likewise.One has only to read the largest Black Website to see the views of many Black people from all walks of life in the UK(they,at best,"tolerate" living in Babylon and their White colleagues but nearly all say they would have as little to do with other Races/Cultures as possible in their "ideal" World.)...I'm sure we can all think of other Communities(Chinese etc-Soho) who also feel the same.Yet,it seems,in some quarters should Whites feel the same they are (insert the word(s) of your choice):Little Englanders/Racists ad infinitum/ad nauseum...
When I grew up in the heart of South London near Peckham and (what is now known as) the "South London Murder Mile" which comprises Kennington/Camberwell/Peckham/Brixton the area was 99% White British.So much so that one could,literally,walk around from one week to another without seeing anything other than fellow YT's....Now??....I have returned to "Inner" London for a sentimental journey down Memory Lane during the last week and "YT" has virtually disappearred in most of these areas other than some "trendy" middle-class areas/some presence on old Council Estates.I have travelled on every Tube line...stopped off at around 50 areas from Shepherds Bush to Camberwell-Hackney-Neasden-Docklands-East End-Seven Sisters-Notting Hill etc etc. the same pattern...the Whites are clearly(by their invisibility) in the minority in most of these areas which only 40/45 were predominantly or exclusively White.
My question is this:-Can you understand the resentment of White-British people to this "invasion" as this is NOT as I described but IS being swamped...even many of the Whites I assumed were British that I heard on the Tube were obviously from The Balkan Countries!
As someone who actually has more "Second-Third" Generation immigrant friends than all my White friends combined (lol) and whose last 4 g/fs have not been Born in Britain I find this,as i said,at the intro,a complex issue as everyone must be treated with equal respect and judgement and viewed as an individual and yet,in my lifetime,I am clearly seeing in  area after area in all parts of London such a radical change that the Racial Group that I am in is fast disappearring!..
How can I,or others be happy with that,especially if so few immigrant Families can create the current situation then its obvious that the White-British percentage will continually decrease in future years.
Interested on peoples thoughts and views please.


----------



## Cockneyboy (Jul 23, 2008)

Attica said:


> One nasty dead ex BNP fascist who won't darken people's lives again;
> 
> http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2008/07/404308.html
> 
> THe little shit couldn't even stand himself - so he topped himself. The only good Nazi is a DEAD ONE


....Sounded like a repugnant lil shit...he is better off dead than red...


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 23, 2008)

Cockneyboy said:


> Just joined today and have not read most of the previous comments on this topic.
> Immigration(for me anyway) is an extremely complex issue and one thing I have learned in my 50+ years is that ones stance primarily depends on ones own circumstances.In London where I've always lived,either in the heart of or the surrounding Suburbs peoples views are,invariably,shaped by their age and other pertinent factors.
> While I could never entertain voting for a Party like The BNP I have to forewarn that there is a genuine and simmering resentment amongst countless Whites in England circa 2008...
> The problem is this,as I see it:Its one thing being a civilised,tolerant Nation accepting degrees of responsibilty for our "less"-than-illustrious Empirical past and accepting genuine refugees from all over where there is a desperate necessity to escape from theor own lands i.e.Somalia would be an example....however the fact is that the overwhelming majority of people DO "choose" to live amongst their own,whether we like the fact or not.Certainly most Asians would be happy to live entirely and exclusively in all-Asian areas.Most Jewish people likewise.One has only to read the largest Black Website to see the views of many Black people from all walks of life in the UK(they,at best,"tolerate" living in Babylon and their White colleagues but nearly all say they would have as little to do with other Races/Cultures as possible in their "ideal" World.)...I'm sure we can all think of other Communities(Chinese etc-Soho) who also feel the same.Yet,it seems,in some quarters should Whites feel the same they are (insert the word(s) of your choice):Little Englanders/Racists ad infinitum/ad nauseum...
> ...



A thoughtful post. My answer to these observations is that 6/7% of the London population was black in 1780 - approx 10-20K (reference "The London Hanged" by Peter Linebaugh, Penguin, 1991, page 350). There have been black people in what is now the UK since Roman times. I think there is historical amnesia and a lot of romantic thinking about a 'glorious all white past' which never existed and which does not stand up to serious investigation.

I would also say that change is constantly happening. There has been no 'invasion' nor 'swamping' - that is prejeudicial language, what there has been is increasing mobility in the global age which has affected migration possibilities through economic integration (eg. EEC). AS usual, the poor migrant communities go to poor areas, and so it goes on. In this case 'white people' - i prefer the term 'pink people' cos it is more accurate - have moved out of the inner London areas because they could. 

Where is the crisis? It is a crisis of romantic nationalism - a crisis for an imaginary community and an invented tradition.


----------



## sonny61 (Jul 23, 2008)

Attica said:


> One nasty dead ex BNP fascist who won't darken people's lives again;
> 
> http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2008/07/404308.html
> 
> THe little shit couldn't even stand himself - so he topped himself. The only good Nazi is a DEAD ONE



Would you have said that if he would have been a Muslim who had hanged himself in jail, who had been convicted of terrorist offences?

A black man in jail convicted of serious crimes, who had hanged himself?

People like yourself are the reason the left never achieve anything, with white middle class sixth form student comments like that.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 24, 2008)

sonny61 said:


> Would you have said that if he would have been a Muslim who had hanged himself in jail, who had been convicted of terrorist offences?
> 
> A black man in jail convicted of serious crimes, who had hanged himself?
> 
> People like yourself are the reason the left never achieve anything, with white middle class sixth form student comments like that.



Bullshit shithead. The only time I have for Nazis is to visit them in the cemetary. This IS the working class tradition in Britian, millions sacrificed during World War 2 to get rid of these poisonous creeps.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 24, 2008)

More results - Wigan;

http://www.aldc.org/-blog/article/224/10/07/2008/Wigan_MBC,_Wigan_West

Lab 817 (38.3 –5.5)
Con 528 (24.8 +5.9)
LD Trevor Beswick 344 (16.1 -2.5)
BNP 200 (9.4 –5.1)
UKIP 124 (5.8 +5.8)
Ind 118 (5.5 +1.3)
Majority 289
Turnout 21.0
Lab hold
Percentage change is since 2008

Things are not all going the BNPS way - combined and uneven development.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 24, 2008)

Hillingdon LBC, Townfield
Lab 1031(45.3 –12.6)
LD R Chamdal 506 (22.2 +8.7)
Con 445 (19.6 –9.0)
BNP 186 (8.2 +8.2)
National Front 74 (3.3 +3.3)
Green 33 (1.5 +1.5)
Majority 525
Turnout Not known

http://www.aldc.org/-blog/article/197/17/07/2008/Hillingdon_LBC,_Townfield

BNP and NF standing in an area and get a combined 11.5%.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 24, 2008)

http://www.aldc.org/-blog/article/204/10/07/2008/Kirklees_MBC,_Dalton

Lab 1397 (40.5 +10.0)
LD Alison Munro 1155 (33.5 –0.8)
Con 605 (17.5 –1.9)
BNP 157 (4.5 –6.3)
Green 103 (3.0 –2.0)
Ind 34 (1.0 +1.0)
Majority 242
Turnout 27.5

BNP fucked in Kirklees.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 24, 2008)

BNP not doing well in another part of Yorkshire;

LD 543 (40.4) J Walton & S St. John Jones Elected
Con 373 (27.7)
Ind 356 (26.5)
BNP 73 (5.4)
Majority 170
Turnout 29.2%

http://www.aldc.org/-blog/article/217/10/07/2008/Knaresborough_TC,_Knaresborough_East


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 24, 2008)

BNP do appallingly in London! 1.3% hahahahahahahaha

Redbridge LBC, Cranbrook
date: 10/07/2008 

Con 1625 (60.0 +7.7)
Lab 729 (27.0 –4.5)
LD Helen Duffett 318 (11.7 –4.5)
BNP 37 (1.3 +1.3)
Majority 896
Turnout 30.0
http://www.aldc.org/-blog/article/238/10/07/2008/Redbridge_LBC,_Cranbrook


----------



## sonny61 (Jul 24, 2008)

May I as a Labour party member, thank the likes of Attica for their dedication in trying to stop the BNP and helping keep my party in power.

Don't expect anything back for it though.


----------



## trevhagl (Jul 24, 2008)

Is there a difference between Labour and the BNP then? I bet the BNP would LOVE to have James Purnell on board...


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 24, 2008)

sonny61 said:


> May I as a Labour party member, thank the likes of Attica for their dedication in trying to stop the BNP and helping keep my party in power.
> 
> Don't expect anything back for it though.



_And may i, as a BNP member, thank you and the labour party for ensuring our continual growth_


----------



## sonny61 (Jul 24, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> _And may i, as a BNP member, thank you and the labour party for ensuring our continual growth_



Really, reading your posts I would have never have guessed.

The BNP do take votes from the Labour the majority of times, but they do also take them from the Tories.

My opinion on the BNP, is that they get to much attention.
They are tiny, with a handful of council seats, although they do take some support of Labour in local elections.

BTW, I have been called a fascist as a member of the Labour party, numerous time by the far left, nothing new.

I have always wondered why the far left don't concentrate on getting a strong far left party going with real appeal to the voters, instead of chasing a tiny pary of far right nutters such as the BNP around.

Then again, thinking of Respect, SSP and what happened to them, maybe it is best to keep on with what they are doing.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Jul 24, 2008)

sonny61 said:


> Really, reading your posts I would have never have guessed.
> 
> The BNP do take votes from the Labour the majority of times, but they do also take them from the Tories.
> 
> ...



Does anyone look 'nuttier' than New Labour at the moment? Leaderless, directionless, clueless, a collapsing membership, despised by the working class, sneered at by the unions and 24 million in debt- remind us what it is you stand for again?


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 25, 2008)

Just a point; I have been looking at the history Workshop journal archive and have come across this;

2007. Published by Oxford University Press on behalf of History Workshop Journal, all rights reserved. 

Excessive Memories: Slavery, Insurance and Resistance
Anita Rupprecht 

   Abstract 

_Over the last few years, the African American led campaign for Slavery Reparations has combined the project of historical excavation with the demand for recognition and redress by moving cultural memory directly into the adversarial sphere. Activists have brought a set of court actions that identify seventeen major international corporations whose predecessors were enriched via the profits amassed, directly or indirectly, through the transatlantic slave trade and slavery between 1619 and 1865. While the cases have been dismissed, a series of Slavery Era Bills have been passed in several states. These Bills require companies that do business in the vicinity to research their records and to disclose evidence of any involvement in slavery or the slave trade. 

This article presents a detailed analysis of one such report by the insurance corporation Royal Sun & Alliance, submitted in 2002. It demonstrates that the company disclosure opens up a hitherto occluded aspect of slave resistance. As the report confirms, eighteenth-century maritime insurance policies on slaves in transit to the Americas initially developed in relation to European kidnap and ransom policies. In the later part of the eighteenth century underwriters began to include clauses in their policies that compensated traders for losses in the event of insurrection. Insurrection was considered to be so predictable that policies also included an excess of five or ten per cent. 

In conclusion, the article argues that the Reparations movement is reactivating the history of slavery by facilitating the exposure of connections between the past and the present. As the history of insurance reveals, slavery and resistance are central to the development of key conceptual structures that govern the financial and legal parameters of contemporary global capital. _

Normally the campaign for reparations in the UK (if it exists) get shouted down, 'you can't blame people today for the past etc' and it is argued that it causes divisions. However, to me that is simplistic empiricism. 

For the people who are directly concerned the struggle for social justice and identity - for visibility, is one 4 their conciousnesses - not other peoples. If other people get agitated that is their problem and not those who associate their history with the past. This article shows that the development and current existence of capitalist social relations is opened up through campaigns for justice in and from the past. Interesting stuff.


----------



## Paul Marsh (Jul 25, 2008)

Attica said:


> BNP do appallingly in London! 1.3% hahahahahahahaha
> 
> Redbridge LBC, Cranbrook
> date: 10/07/2008
> ...



Indeed. 

Although it should be noted this is an area with a huge ethnic minority voting base (both the candidates for the 2 main parties were Asian) and even you Attica should be able to understand that not too many people from such groups vote BNP.


----------



## JHE (Jul 25, 2008)

Two council by-elections yesterday with BNP participation:

*Boston Coastal Ward, Boston Borough Council (E Mids):*

Cons 344
Ind   306
LD    213
BNP  119  (10.7%)
UKIP 88
Lab   44​
*Simpasture Ward, Great Aycliffe Town Council (County Durham):*

Lab  251
BNP  154  (28.1%)
Ind  143​


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 25, 2008)

*Paul cannot stop being a wanker*



Paul Marsh said:


> Indeed.
> 
> Although it should be noted this is an area with a huge ethnic minority voting base (both the candidates for the 2 main parties were Asian) and even you Attica should be able to understand that not too many people from such groups vote BNP.



You just don't seem to understand propaganda Paul. Some of the people we want to influence, who may get active against the BNP, want to know that it is a struggle they can win, that the BNP are not high and mighty, that there are many others who think like they do. Here, we can ridicule the BNP and you choose to give them succour.Well done. Wanker.


----------



## Paul Marsh (Jul 25, 2008)

I love the juxtaposition of the 2 posts above. 

One, pointing out that in Attica's home turf of Durham the BNP just took 28% of the vote in an election.

The other Attica berating me as a 'wanker' for the crime of taking the BNP _seriously_........


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 25, 2008)

*Paul cannot stop being a wanker*



Paul Marsh said:


> I love the juxtaposition of the 2 posts above.
> 
> One, pointing out that in Attica's home turf of Durham the BNP just took 28% of the vote in an election.
> 
> The other Attica berating me as a 'wanker' for the crime of taking the BNP _seriously_........



Way to miss the point dimwit. Why you are in the position you are IS a quirk of fate, an historical accident - CW shrinks/splits/loses members so that you are left. Wow. Impressed I am not. Why you chose to be an anarcho 'cos of the Nirvana video' says it all really, picking your ideology off the shelf from a struggle free Prison officer class background says it all really. You are anally retentive

You mean the ward where they lost, and in an area where they have no councillors locally or at a county wide level? That one, where they are completely marginal and irrelevant in politics? Oh.

I do take the BNP seriously, whatever makes you think that I do not. BUT mine is a *political rejection *of the BNP - this political rejection once was part of Class War  politics, to delegitimate. 

I choose to laugh at their marginality, racist and fascist politics, stupidity and basic irrelevance (just as I laugh at your politics). To encourage others with the sheer lightness and joy of hating them, for a movement with life that will do things and politically reject them. Your dullard crap is shite, you cannot bore people into revolution Paul. It's time you realised that.


----------



## Paul Marsh (Jul 25, 2008)

see post below. Sorry!


----------



## Paul Marsh (Jul 25, 2008)

Attica said:


> I do take the BNP seriously, whatever makes you think that I do not.



I know that comparing your comments over even a short period is probably a waste of time, but this line from Mayday issue 2 stands out:

_"...they are not anything other than marginal. In recent years they have gone from totally irrelevant, to completely marginal". _

All this despite last year being:

_"2007 was the year to try and breakthrough, equivalent to Hitler's 'Battle of the Bulge' in 1944, where Hitler hoped a counter offensive - a dash for the sea, would force the allies on the Western European mainland back over the sea to England. That was a failure as well as the BNP at this election". 
_

And there was everyone else thinking the targets that really mattered to Griffin were the London Assembly and the next European elections! 

Of successful BNP results in Durham you commented:

"_The Sedgefield and Spennymoor results are also based upon certain nests of runts, the battle for these areas is still very far from lost and will continue. The old left and northern sensibilities are some of what is preventing a BNP breakthrough in these areas".
_
Hanging your hat on an old Labour/TU revival is certainly a gamble, especially as the BNP can simply wait on existing old stagers dying out. There is not a 50 year old version of Dave Douglass out there, or a 40 year old version, a 30 year old version and there sure as hell is not a 20 year old version. That world has gone. 
Secondly the 'nest' in Great Aycliffe is a new one - they had never stood there before. 

Still, I am sure they would be receptive to talk of "a movement of movements" or even "Autonomous anti-fascist practice". Somebody has to be.............


----------



## mk12 (Jul 25, 2008)

> "...they are not anything other than marginal. In recent years they have gone from totally irrelevant, to completely marginal".



How can anyone say this after the BNP are getting electoral results which the far-right has never achieved in this country?


----------



## audiotech (Jul 25, 2008)

mk12 said:


> How can anyone say this after the BNP are getting electoral results which the far-right has never achieved in this country?


 
BNP member and councillor Sadie Graham for one.

_



			The votes are decreasing and the rate of councillors is not moving forward...too many councillors don’t get re-elected into their seats, so something is seriously going wrong.
		
Click to expand...

_


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 25, 2008)

Well a) she's not a BNP member b) be the 'rate of councillors' (sic) is going up and c) their vote is going up. 

Great stuff MC5. Thanks so much.


----------



## audiotech (Jul 25, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Well a) she's not a BNP member b) be the 'rate of councillors' (sic) is going up and c) their vote is going up.
> 
> Great stuff MC5. Thanks so much.


 
My pleasure. 

Expelled BNP member.


----------



## JimPage (Jul 26, 2008)

Paul Marsh said:


> I love the juxtaposition of the 2 posts above.
> 
> One, pointing out that in Attica's home turf of Durham the BNP just took 28% of the vote in an election.
> [/I]........



Indeed. 28% in a ward, incidentally, their canddiates polled 11.3% and 7.3% in for the Durham County Council elections in May 2008. More evidence, no doubt, of BNP decline- doubling their vote and all that.


----------



## JimPage (Jul 26, 2008)

On matters BNP, looks like Scott McLean and Kenny Smith have finally formed their "Scotland First" group, which i can guess will act in association with their fascist counterparts England First. For a new, reformed, progressive group, they have already signed up the openly nutzi Steve Cartwright, who the BNP up here dumped years ago. Much interent chatter from dissidents about their failure to fight in Glasgow East, and to concentrate on rural north east scotland, where the bulk of their remaining membership in scotland lies


----------



## JimPage (Jul 26, 2008)

Forthcoming by elections with BNP presence
31 July Lincolnshire County Council-  Louth Worlds Ward
7 August Maldon DC- Maldon North


----------



## durruti02 (Jul 26, 2008)

Attica said:


> A thoughtful post. My answer to these observations is that 6/7% of the London population was black in 1780 - approx 10-20K (reference "The London Hanged" by Peter Linebaugh, Penguin, 1991, page 350). There have been black people in what is now the UK since Roman times. I think there is historical amnesia and a lot of romantic thinking about a 'glorious all white past' which never existed and which does not stand up to serious investigation.
> 
> I would also say that change is constantly happening. There has been no 'invasion' nor 'swamping' - that is prejeudicial language, what there has been is increasing mobility in the global age which has affected migration possibilities through economic integration (eg. EEC). AS usual, the poor migrant communities go to poor areas, and so it goes on. In this case 'white people' - i prefer the term 'pink people' cos it is more accurate - have moved out of the inner London areas because they could.
> 
> Where is the crisis? It is a crisis of romantic nationalism - a crisis for an imaginary community and an invented tradition.



i generally ageree with you .. but how does what you say play in the affected communities??? not well i would say 

so yes there IS an romantic nationalism and myths .. BUT they are ALSO partially truths too .. britain DID rule the world .. the british w/c WERE the best paid ( and organised ) in the world .. w/c people DUD have power ( of sorts ) thru their unions and political party ( Labour) .. we DID have the best welfare state .. 

a left worth it's salt must be capable of responding to the collapse of both the british empire and british nationalism ( which is dead .. i wonder if and when the BNP will changes its name to 'EnglishNP' ) , the collapse of the working class power, culture and 'it's' welfare state 

the BNP simply responds with the idiotic idea that 'communists' have taken over (LOL!!) and have run down the country .. and argues for a rebirth of nationalism while utterly ignoring the fact that the country is run by WASPs .. neo liberal wasps 

the liberal left currently responds with both a negative agenda mocking and attacking w/c responses to this crisis OR what are percieved as, and are to an extent, very m/c multi cultural / cosmopolitan responses that do not relate to the vast maj of w/c people, who remain white and non cosmopolitan 

it seems clear that it is issues over power that are as crucial as issues relating finance/wages ( or imperialism!lol) that the left always prioritise

there is throughout ALL the BNP and other 'rightist' stiff that we see everywhere today a theme .. of lost power .. of lost rights etc .. over smoking bans, speed cameras, 'the pound', aimed at Brown, at the EU, at immigrants etc etc ... and over and over and over the targets are missed ..

 BUT the BNP ARE making the running .. as they DO talk of power .. as did the nsadap .. ( read your reich again .. fascism comes to power by making (false) promises of power) .. and the left NEVER talk of power 

a discussion and strategy aimed at helping the w/c get back power is crucial to anti fascism .. the iwca started that debate .. it is up to us all to take it on


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 26, 2008)

mk12 said:


> How can anyone say this after the BNP are getting electoral results which the far-right has never achieved in this country?



Because they had shit results before.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 26, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Well a) she's not a BNP member b) be the 'rate of councillors' (sic) is going up and c) their vote is going up.
> 
> Great stuff MC5. Thanks so much.



A) She was B) Statistically insignificant in the totality. C) It's been going down year on year.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 26, 2008)

JimPage said:


> Indeed. 28% in a ward, incidentally, their canddiates polled 11.3% and 7.3% in for the Durham County Council elections in May 2008. More evidence, no doubt, of BNP decline- doubling their vote and all that.



Simplistic toss helps nobody, but deludes the deludable... 

A more comprehensive analysis would start by saying;

There were 3 candidates = 33.3% of the vote had it split evenly. Given the BNP could concentrate their resources from throughout the area on that ward 28% is not reflective of much. It is lower than they have got in other seats in the area. The question is whether the ward will go to them at the next election and I do not think it will.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 26, 2008)

Paul Marsh said:


> I know that comparing your comments over even a short period is probably a waste of time, but this line from Mayday issue 2 stands out:
> 
> _"...they are not anything other than marginal. In recent years they have gone from totally irrelevant, to completely marginal". _
> 
> ...



Consistently better than you

They tried to break through, with a doubling of seats 'out of nowhere' in 2007 - but failed. It was an attempt at a breakthrough on a small scale. What I said holds up, there is no contradiction. You do not even know what contradictions are, you have no background in research methods or Marxist methodology.

As for the London elections they were a year later, and of course could be a different target, as are the Europeans. You are saying nothing.


----------



## Paul Marsh (Jul 26, 2008)

JimPage said:


> On matters BNP, looks like Scott McLean and Kenny Smith have finally formed their "Scotland First" group, which i can guess will act in association with their fascist counterparts England First. For a new, reformed, progressive group, they have already signed up the openly nutzi Steve Cartwright, who the BNP up here dumped years ago.



In a way that was also one of the contradictions of the BNP split. 

Searchlight were busy telling airheads like Weyman Bennett that the split was between Euro Nationalists such as Sadie Graham and hardcore Nazis around Nick Griffin (something Bennett repeated willingly in UAF press statements) The reality was the anti-Griffin wing contained _both_ headbangers and the 'serious' tendency.

That is another reason why they were doomed to fail - a coherent political message - other than "we don't like Nick Griffin" was never going to emerge. 

Oddly, in his analysis of the why the BNP split collapsed (see July's Searchlight) Nick Lowles does not make this basic point.


----------



## durruti02 (Jul 27, 2008)

Attica said:


> .. you have no background in research methods or Marxist methodology...



re above .. are you really so totally unaware how arrogent this appears or then why so many people utterly ignore what you say?? you have forgotten or rejected or maybe never understood CW's maxim that the best way of debate and communication is that, that is the clearest and simplest  ..

.. and while you talk of praxis, actually you are lost in a swamp of dogmatic theoretical abstraction, that allows you, absurdly, to dismiss a 28% vote for a fascist party, on your turf, as insignificant.


----------



## durruti02 (Jul 27, 2008)

Attica said:


> Simplistic toss helps nobody, but deludes the deludable...
> 
> A more comprehensive analysis would start by saying;
> 
> There were 3 candidates = 33.3% of the vote had it split evenly. Given the BNP could concentrate their resources from throughout the area on that ward 28% is not reflective of much. It is lower than they have got in other seats in the area. The question is whether the ward will go to them at the next election and I do not think it will.



this was a by election so ALL parties were able to concentrate on that ward .. while you are arguing to undercut the bnp through sarcasm actually by your absurd undifferrence you are normalising the idea that in w/c areas a third of voters vote for fascism .. some undercutting ..


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 27, 2008)

durruti02 said:


> re above .. are you really so totally unaware how arrogent this appears or then why so many people utterly ignore what you say?? you have forgotten or rejected or maybe never understood CW's maxim that the best way of debate and communication is that, that is the clearest and simplest  ..



Perhaps it does - but what I said is also true. 

Also, if it really was that simple we would have made it politically by now, but we haven't. The world is a really complex place and reductionism (skirting over or ignoring existing knowledge) does not help our politics in the long run. Some knowledge, theory and concepts, are essential for a greater understanding of 'the real world', and as Marx said, revolutionaries go to the root of an issue. In this case Paul was pretending he had a serious insight, when he did not. 

It is also tragic that those with little knowledge can windbag (unchallenged) in a very undeserving manner in positions of some responsibility...


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 27, 2008)

durruti02 said:


> this was a by election so ALL parties were able to concentrate on that ward .. while you are arguing to undercut the bnp through sarcasm actually by your absurd undifferrence you are normalising the idea that in w/c areas a third of voters vote for fascism .. some undercutting ..



Give over, I am not contributing to normalising the bNP vote at all. I tried to explain it in a more comprehensive manner - that is not normalising it. Here is evidence of the extent of BNP canvassing;

http://www.youtubeDOTcom/watch?v=I7TdkIX_SBw

I do not think other parties put anywhere near the amount of effort in the BNP did.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 27, 2008)

Paul Marsh said:


> Secondly the 'nest' in Great Aycliffe is a new one - they had never stood there before.



As usual you are wrong Paul - evidence here;

http://greataycliffe.sedgefield.gov...n;jsessionid=904F8075229E86B4A72DF794811113DE


----------



## durruti02 (Jul 27, 2008)

Attica said:


> Give over, I am not contributing to normalising the bNP vote at all. I tried to explain it in a more comprehensive manner - that is not normalising it.



yes you are .. you have declared over and over that it is nothing to worry about that they are consistently getting between 15 and 30% ( and more when they win) in w/c areas .. you are doing a great service to an ideology that has never before had such a base in the british w/c


----------



## durruti02 (Jul 27, 2008)

Attica said:


> 1)Perhaps it does - but what I said is also true.
> 
> 2) Also, if it really was that simple we would have made it politically by now, but we haven't. The world is a really complex place and reductionism (skirting over or ignoring existing knowledge) does not help our politics in the long run. Some knowledge, theory and concepts, are essential for a greater understanding of 'the real world', and as Marx said, revolutionaries go to the root of an issue.
> 
> 3)It is also tragic that those with little knowledge can windbag (unchallenged) in a very undeserving manner in positions of some responsibility...



1) 'what i said is also true' .. you have no self awareness of your arrogance

2) i do not deny this in any way .. i firmly believe in praxis and thus in both practical AND theoretical inputs .. what i am saying is that your positions are NOT based in praxis but in dogmatic theoretical abstraction.

3) this is you from where almost all other posters see you .. please note


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 27, 2008)

durruti02 said:


> yes you are .. you have declared over and over that it is nothing to worry about that they are consistently getting between 15 and 30% ( and more when they win) in w/c areas .. you are doing a great service to an ideology that has never before had such a base in the british w/c



Not true. I have never said "there is nothing to worry about" - evidence lacking there boy.

I suppose you had to say that 'I am bigging up the BNP by denying they are doing well', when I have said 'YOU are bigging up the BNP by saying they are doing well'. 

Shall we examine this for a moment? IS there any need? We disagree.

I do think that the authentically independent and neutral will look at the evidence and actually side with me. 

BECAUSE it is obviously absurd to suggest that arguing 'negatively about the BNP' is actually encouraging their ideology. 

It is far more likely that *authentic neutrals* will agree with me when I say that those who 'say the BNP are doing well' are (more likely) to be encouraging their ideology.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 27, 2008)

durruti02 said:


> 1) 'what i said is also true' .. you have no self awareness of your arrogance
> 
> 2) i do not deny this in any way .. i firmly believe in praxis and thus in both practical AND theoretical inputs .. what i am saying is that your positions are NOT based in praxis but in dogmatic theoretical abstraction.
> 
> 3) this is you from where almost all other posters see you .. please note



1) Having looked at a dictionary definition of arrogance I can only say that they do not know what arrogance is then. The problem is the low standards and lack of experience of those who have been around a bit. I have no overblown opinion of myself, i have a realistic assesment of my capability, based upon experience and knowledge (i was there you see). 

2) You are wrong then - i do have anti fascist practice...

3) What _position_ of responsibility in the movement do I have then Durutti? Sits back, waits.... I contribute as a participant with ideas and knowledge based in reflective experience - totally deserved - i am time served


----------



## durruti02 (Jul 27, 2008)

Attica said:


> Not true. I have never said "there is nothing to worry about" - evidence lacking there boy.
> 
> I suppose you had to say that 'I am bigging up the BNP by denying they are doing well', when I have said 'YOU are bigging up the BNP by saying they are doing well'.
> 
> ...


  when previously did fascism regulalry get almost 30% of the vote in durham?


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 27, 2008)

durruti02 said:


> when previously did fascism regulalry get almost 30% of the vote in durham?



Co. Durham is a big place - 5th largest council i fink. I am 1 person in case you hadn't noticed, you cannot say that BNP results are 'my fault'. That's just (and I despise people who use prejeudicial terminology) insane.

What does 28% mean in a by election? They lost. They have NO seats in the NORTH EAST - despite the repeated hyperbole from southerners about 'how well the bnp are doing' over the past 7 years *the BNP have TOTALLY failed to get a seat in this North East working class heartland*. 

What does that tell you? The North East IS rejecting the BNP constantly

BTW the BNP did get 30% in Durham in May 2008 in 1 seat if my memory is right. THEY will never win that seat either cos LABOUR got 60% plus!!


----------



## durruti02 (Jul 28, 2008)

Attica said:


> Co. Durham is a big place - 5th largest council i fink. I am 1 person in case you hadn't noticed, you cannot say that BNP results are 'my fault'. That's just (and I despise people who use prejeudicial terminology) insane.
> 
> What does 28% mean in a by election? They lost. They have NO seats in the NORTH EAST - despite the repeated hyperbole from southerners about 'how well the bnp are doing' over the past 7 years *the BNP have TOTALLY failed to get a seat in this North East working class heartland*.
> 
> ...



your fault?? don't be daft .. but it is true you are not involved in local community or workplace and instead prioritise the 'intelectual struggle' so i think it is fair to say that this HAS happenned on your watch 

but again when you say "What does 28% mean in a by election? They lost" ..  you do normalise the fascist vote .. you ACCEPT that fascism winning 30% of the vote is acceptable cos they have not actually won seats. It is NOT acceptable .. 1% is maybe acceptable .. 30% is utterly unacceptable and you are accepting, normalising, ignoring this. 

i ask you again WHEN in what is a trad left wing area did fascism ever get near to 30% of the vote? i do not know .. you WILL know .. was durham a big New Party area? did Durham vote NF in the 7ts? Are the streets of Chopwell named for Hitler Himmler and Goebells?


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 28, 2008)

durruti02 said:


> A) your fault?? don't be daft .. but it is true you are not involved in local community or workplace and instead prioritise the 'intelectual struggle' so i think it is fair to say that this HAS happenned on your watch
> 
> B) but again when you say "What does 28% mean in a by election? They lost" ..  you do normalise the fascist vote .. you ACCEPT that fascism winning 30% of the vote is acceptable cos they have not actually won seats. It is NOT acceptable .. 1% is maybe acceptable .. 30% is utterly unacceptable and you are accepting, normalising, ignoring this.
> 
> C) i ask you again WHEN in what is a trad left wing area did fascism ever get near to 30% of the vote? i do not know .. you WILL know .. was durham a big New Party area? did Durham vote NF in the 7ts? Are the streets of Chopwell named for Hitler Himmler and Goebells?



A) FFS you know nothing of local conditions around here. Virtually everybody has a very localist attitude, it is not 'my responsibility' at all. Your Goldfish memory shows that you are full of wishful thinking - Look at this thread;
http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=7824146&postcount=134 
where I say I take part in a local campaign. The only one in our town I know of!! There are no more. Also 'intellectual in intellectual struggle shock'...

B) Talk about Gibberish. FFS. Your desperation is getting worse. That is cos 'normalisation' is inadequately theorised. I have told Butchers this and he doesn't give a toss either. I asked a question - notice the question mark? That is accepting NOTHING... What does losing an isolated council seat mean, even if it's 28% of the vote, when they put a lot of effort into it? Effort they cannot replicate on a mass election time in May.

C) Doing my Catherine Tate impression - _am i bovvered?_ That is not a very good or relevant observation, its chaotic even.


----------



## durruti02 (Jul 28, 2008)

Attica said:


> A) FFS you know nothing of local conditions around here. Virtually everybody has a very localist attitude, it is not 'my responsibility' at all. Your Goldfish memory shows that you are full of wishful thinking - Look at this thread;
> http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=7824146&postcount=134
> where I say I take part in a local campaign. The only one in our town I know of!! There are no more. Also 'intellectual in intellectual struggle shock'...
> 
> ...



this is extraordinary .. you seem are arguing that the BNP could get 49% of teh vote in every seat BUT if they do not win any then it is unimportant. you very much appear to be and at the very least you are arguing that it is OK that in your ex left wing neck of the woods a fascist aprty are regularly hitting 30% of the vote .. attica you are no intelectual .. you are a dogmatist who is losing an arguement and can not be brave enough to accept you have got something wrong


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## The Black Hand (Jul 28, 2008)

durruti02 said:


> this is extraordinary .. you seem are arguing that the BNP could get 49% of teh vote in every seat BUT if they do not win any then it is unimportant. you very much appear to be and at the very least you are arguing that it is OK that in your ex left wing neck of the woods a fascist aprty are regularly hitting 30% of the vote .. attica you are no intelectual .. you are a dogmatist who is losing an arguement and can not be brave enough to accept you have got something wrong



Nonsense. Did you notice this "That is accepting NOTHING..." in that other post.  Stop warping what I am saying, or projecting with no basis. I do accept that I cannot affect it, that I am talking about my opinion. Should I worry about every individual BNP vote? No. That is the way to early retirement via stress. The political situation we face is not as we would want. Quell Surprise.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 28, 2008)

Paul Marsh said:


> Of successful BNP results in Durham you commented:
> 
> "_The Sedgefield and Spennymoor results are also based upon certain nests of runts, the battle for these areas is still very far from lost and will continue. The old left and northern sensibilities are some of what is preventing a BNP breakthrough in these areas".
> _
> ...



Wtf it shows you do not understand much at all Paul. Rather than be ultra left like you, a general with no followers - i prefer to work with society how it is rather than write it all off as you do. You write off the real world! Fantastic. Well done. Not. 

YOU have no opposition around the country. The Labour party is, now and today, stopping the BNP in far more wards than you and your ilk will EVER do. They might be responsible at the top level for the existing situation that much is true, but it is inescapable that the lower reaches of the Labour party are stopping the BNP now and today and you cannot replace them. There is a new wave of trade union organisers coming through, some more like Mark M. than Dave Douglass but that's another story.

Your ignorance of the real world, and your inability to work in more broad based alliance(s) condemns you permanently to the margins. Don't reply. I really am not interested in anything you say at all.


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## JimPage (Jul 28, 2008)

BNP to fight a rare by election in Scotland, in the Glasgow Baillieston council ward as and when the election is called (the ward of the SNP winner in Glasgow East)

Am sure there will be left opposition, would be good to see a united left candidate here. And before anyone says "the left will slaughter them" in the 4 wards fought in 2007 by the BNP in Glasgow, they were outpolled by Solidarity in all 4, but beat the SSP in 2, and got the same number as the SSP in the third one


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## durruti02 (Jul 28, 2008)

Attica said:


> The Labour party is, now and today, stopping the BNP in far more wards than you and your ilk will EVER do. They might be responsible at the top level for the existing situation that much is true, but it is inescapable that the lower reaches of the Labour party are stopping the BNP now and today and you cannot replace them.



 will comment later ..


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## The Black Hand (Jul 28, 2008)

durruti02 said:


> will comment later ..



No worries. I still owe you a reply to that one at the top of the page


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## The Black Hand (Aug 12, 2008)

Tuesday, 12th August 2008 
 the Ripley & Heanor News site.

Mass rally at BNP festival 

« Previous « PreviousNext » Next »View GalleryProtesters have vowed to turn up in droves at the British National Party's annual Red, White and Blue Festival to be held in Denby next week.
The event will take place on fields off Codnor-Denby Lane, from Friday, August 15 to Sunday, August 17, even though a licence to sell alcohol and play live music was controversially refused by Amber Valley Borough Council after objections from policeADVERTISEMENT.

The anti-BNP rally has been organised by groups including Notts Stop The BNP, East Midlands Unite Against Fascism; Derby, Mansfield and Nottingham Trades Council and Derby Unite Against Fascism. 

Coach loads of people are expected to arrive from all over the country to protest outside the festival.

Supporters of Nottinghamshire Stop the BNP and anti-fascists from Derby, were in the area on Monday, distributing leaflets to residents explaining why they will be protesting.

Trevor Masters, from the group, said: "We want to support local residents by making sure that the BNP don't come back here next year."

Protesters are expected to march along Codnor-Denby Lane to Codnor Park, where they will hold a rally, at about 11am on, Saturday, August 16.

Alan Warner, who owns the land where the festival will be held, said he was not worried: "The police have got everything in hand. They will shut the footpath so no-one will be able to get into the site and if they do they will be arrested."

He also claimed he was already being targeted by the groups. "I got up on Sunday morning and there were 16 hypodermic needles at the bottom of my garden. I phoned the police."

A England flag stolen from his property had been returned by post with anti-BNP slogans and Antifa scrawled on it. Antifa is the national and international alliance of militant anti-fascists. 

The police are investigating the needles incident and have taken the flag away for forensic analysis. 

Supt Howard Veigas said: "We are working with everyone who wishes to attend and hold a lawful protest and will police the event accordingly."

Last year's festival passed off peacefully without protest.


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## durruti02 (Aug 14, 2008)

Maldon North by election 7/8/8 bnp 14%

 Candidate  Party  Votes  Percentage

1  Shrimpton, Anthony Eric John  The Conservative Party  339  41

2  Carden, Janet Marilyn  The Green Party  200  24

3  Rew, Paul William  Independent  115  14

4  Blain, Leonard Keith  British National Party  107  13

5  Harris, Geoffrey  -  69 8

Turnout: 26.5



Louth Wolds by election Lincs CC 31/7/08  .. bnp 11%

http://www.louthleader.co.uk/news/Tories-win-byelection-but-BNP.4350243.jp


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## treelover (Aug 14, 2008)

Another march and rally, wonder when we will see marches against the massive gas/electricity/water utility rises, the housing crisis, the welfare reforms, wrong end of the telescope imo.


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## durruti02 (Aug 14, 2008)

http://sim on da rby.bl ogsp ot.com/2008_07_01_archive.html

broken link for griffin interview with simon darby at end of july ( go to 20th july  )  ... talking up yorkshire hopes


----------



## malcolj (Aug 20, 2008)

*Socialist Party Report*

http://www.socialistparty.org.uk/latest/6348
The day's action was a great success. However question marks still remain about how to campaign successfully against the BNP. The UAF have refused to negotiate with the local campaign for months and only made small concessions by allowing a speaker at the last minute when under pressure. The police and UAF had agreed that the UAF would lead the march. However, UAF set off while a trade unionist from Derby who had just begun to speak on the Stop the BNP platform was in mid flow. This "control freakery" is not only sectarian but potentially divided the protest putting people at risk.

The chanting by SWP members of slogans like "fascist scum get off our streets" to local people who are certainly not all BNP supporters can only alienate people. There was irony too. The chanters and the UAF did not allow a newly formed local campaign group to have a banner at the front nor placards from the Notts campaign. Those who claimed that Codnor were "our streets" promptly left in their buses to head away from local activity.

Local residents opposed to the BNP's camp also felt affronted. Two local supporters of the Stop the BNP network told us: "When the march was turned around and coming back through the town, we went to the front to put the local banner to the front. Personally I felt having held up all the streets, having got the residents out, I thought it was very important as we marched back up that all the residents that were out should see that it was a local protest with national backing but we were manhandled, physically and verbally and told to get out of the way and that we weren't important, that it wasn't a local it was a national concern. It is a national concern but it needs to be locally led."

Another added "For every community you need to have the local face of it but show that it has national backing. The local campaigners need to be visible to show that it is the community that is united against fascism, not that it's a bus load of people from London."

A conference has been called on September 27 by the East Midlands Stop the BNP network. This conference will discuss vital questions such as how best to campaign effectively against the BNP, and how to build on existing links with local trade unions and activists.


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## malcolj (Aug 20, 2008)

What does that tell you? The North East IS rejecting the BNP constantly

BTW the BNP did get 30% in Durham in May 2008 in 1 seat if my memory is right. THEY will never win that seat either cos LABOUR got 60% plus!![/QUOTE]

It tells you the BNP are a growing force and the UAF/Hope not Hate strategy is failing


----------



## Zachor (Aug 20, 2008)

malcolj said:


> http://www.socialistparty.org.uk/latest/6348
> The day's action was a great success. However question marks still remain about how to campaign successfully against the BNP. The UAF have refused to negotiate with the local campaign for months and only made small concessions by allowing a speaker at the last minute when under pressure. The police and UAF had agreed that the UAF would lead the march. However, UAF set off while a trade unionist from Derby who had just begun to speak on the Stop the BNP platform was in mid flow. This "control freakery" is not only sectarian but potentially divided the protest putting people at risk.
> 
> The chanting by SWP members of slogans like "fascist scum get off our streets" to local people who are certainly not all BNP supporters can only alienate people. There was irony too. The chanters and the UAF did not allow a newly formed local campaign group to have a banner at the front nor placards from the Notts campaign. Those who claimed that Codnor were "our streets" promptly left in their buses to head away from local activity.
> ...



This squeezing out of local anti bnp groups and activists and shouting Nazi at bog standard members of the public is a feature of UAF actions.  They did it in Dagenham to great success - NOT.

Personally I wouldn't work with or contribute money to any anti fash group that was linked to the UAF/SWP.


----------



## Zachor (Aug 20, 2008)

malcolj said:


> It tells you the BNP are a growing force and the UAF/Hope not Hate strategy is failing



You are right.  Kicking off at the old bill or calling locals under pressure Nazis is no way to run an anti fash campaign.

I think that it is time for a proper broad based anti fash campaign that specifically excludes the SWP on ther grounds that their leadership of antifash activity in the past has been counterproductive.


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## Nigel (Aug 21, 2008)

*Searchlight?*



Zachor said:


> You are right.  Kicking off at the old bill or calling locals under pressure Nazis is no way to run an anti fash campaign.
> 
> I think that it is time for a proper broad based anti fash campaign that specifically excludes the SWP on ther grounds that their leadership of antifash activity in the past has been counterproductive.



Are you involved in Searchlight?
Since rumour has it relations between previous ANL(mark II)/UAF and Searchlight are'nt as good as they used to be.

This combined with pro-establishment, close to Islamaphobic views, pro-Zionist(sic) and the way you express you dislike for SWP, almost trying to create sectarian divisions?

YES or NO will do?


----------



## Zachor (Aug 21, 2008)

Nigel said:


> Are you involved in Searchlight?
> Since rumour has it relations between previous ANL(mark II)/UAF and Searchlight are'nt as good as they used to be.
> 
> This combined with pro-establishment, close to Islamaphobic views, pro-Zionist(sic) and the way you express you dislike for SWP, almost trying to create sectarian divisions?
> ...




No I'm not a member of Searchlight.  

For the record, I have a distrust of Islamism but not Muslims, I'm a moderate Zionist and cannot fucking stand the SWP as they are as divisive as the bnp in some ways, I also wouldn't say I was pro establishment more a realist.


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## JimPage (Aug 30, 2008)

A result from last thursday- Rotherham Wickersley ward- a first time appearance for them in this ward

Lab     871
Con     821
BNP     538
UKIP    373
LD       191 

Forthcoming council by elections with BNP presence in Leeds, Melton Mowbray and  Glasgow. First time outings as well in Watford and Camden


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## JHE (Aug 30, 2008)

JimPage said:


> A result from last thursday- Rotherham Wickersley ward- a first time appearance for them in this ward
> 
> Lab     871
> Con     821
> ...



19% for BNP, eh?  Aye, looks like they got out t' ballerina vote.


----------



## durruti02 (Aug 30, 2008)

JimPage said:


> A result from last thursday- Rotherham Wickersley ward- a first time appearance for them in this ward
> 
> Lab     871
> Con     821
> ...



hi jim ... do you think they would have wanted to do better in this rotherham ward what with cllrs in other wards?

from www.cyclopstoff.com

 "Despite the controlled media talking up the Tories as far as possible, two council by-elections held this week have seen that party’s vote slump as the BNP jumped to nearly 20% in Rotherham.

The Tories held Wickersley, Rotherham Borough, South Yorkshire, where the BNP’s John Round came in third with 19.2% of the vote.

In Pimhill, Shrewsbury, the Tories saw their majority slashed to just 10 votes by the Liberal Democrats, where they had previously taken more than 80%. Brave BNP candidate Helen Foulkes, venturing out into the tough ward for the first time, took a respectable eight percent.

Full results: Rotherham Borough - Wickersley: Lab 871, C 824, BNP 538, UKIP 373, Lib Dem 191. (May 2008 - C 1355, Lab 1255, Ukip 879.).

Shrewsbury and Atcham Borough - Pimhill: C 341, Lib Dem 331, BNP 59, Ind 16. (May 2007 - C 564, Lab 136).


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## durruti02 (Aug 30, 2008)

JimPage said:


> First time outings as well in Watford and Camden


  i suggest they will do well in watford .. already had some good resulst just south of there .. but camden??


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## JimPage (Sep 2, 2008)

durruti02 said:


> i suggest they will do well in watford .. already had some good resulst just south of there .. but camden??



They are actually fighting Hampstead Town ward- their second weakest ward in the borough where they polled only 47 votes in May. This is clearly a training excercize for them to train local candidates/activists in the mechanics of fighting an election, leaflet design, paperwork, canvassing and how to deal with hostile opposition, of which there will be plenty in this ward. The result will be derisory, but that wont be the point

It will also intensely annoy local hampstead liberal types who are probably today penning a  letter of outrage to the Ham and High.....


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## JimPage (Sep 2, 2008)

durruti02 said:


> hi jim ... do you think they would have wanted to do better in this rotherham ward what with cllrs in other wards?
> (May 2007 - C 564, Lab 136).



If i am correct they have fought 9 other wards in town and not this one, so i can only guess there is something about its demographics which is working aganst them., However, 19% isnt too bad for them

One more election i missed- in Barrow this thursday


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## treelover (Sep 2, 2008)

> BNP 538
> UKIP 373




If you count UKIP as a far right party, the combined vote of the BNP and the former is even more significant, more so if including the Tories, then the RW vote is incredibly high. What is the make up of the ward?.


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## JimPage (Sep 3, 2008)

treelover said:


> If you count UKIP as a far right party, the combined vote of the BNP and the former is even more significant, more so if including the Tories, then the RW vote is incredibly high. What is the make up of the ward?.



Its a Tory/Labour marginal ward - UKIP polled 25% there in May 2008. UKIP are relatively strong in town 

Not a sniff of a left canddiate anywhere for years in this solidly working class town


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## JimPage (Sep 5, 2008)

By election result from yesterday

Merlton Mowbray BC Melton Egerton Ward 

Labour 314
BNP 236 (32.5%)
Tory 177

% Vote up from 2007 when they fought the same ward (2 Vacancies in 2007)
2007 result Lab 431/386 BNP 251 Con 216/194

A smaller % in Barrow, and pleasingly beat by Socislist Peoples Party- who nearly beat Labour

Barrow Borough Council Newbarns Ward

Con 478
Lab 177
SPP 155
BNP 104 (11.8%)

May 2008: Con 609, Con 516, Con 486, Ind 511, Lab 299, Lab243, Lab216


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 5, 2008)

JimPage said:


> By election result from yesterday
> 
> Merlton Mowbray BC Melton Egerton Ward
> 
> ...



there are tories in Barrow??? 

anyway for me two results illustrating well what we have been saying .. bnp doing well unless opposed by real down to earth opponents from whatever party be it respect in preston SPP in barrow etc etc


----------



## JimPage (Sep 12, 2008)

Few more by elections- Lincoln Bourne Abbey Ward, Hillingdon West Ruislip ward, and just for any north londoners, first time outing in Haringey in Alexandra ward


----------



## JimPage (Oct 12, 2008)

More by elections with BNP presence for you fash- botherers out there over next few weeks

Kirklees Dewsbury East 
Edinburgh Forth 
Watford Manor 
Redcar South Bank
Loughborough Disgley and Hathern 
Wolverhampton Wednesfield North 
Wolverhampton Wednesfield South
Chichester East Wittering
Glasgow Baillieston Ward (again)
Allerdale Workington St Johns
Camden Kentish Town
Waltham Forest Valley
Hinckley Markfield and Stanton Ward


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 12, 2008)

Stoke Labour Party have triggered a referendum on getting rid of the Mayoral system, because they're in utter dissary and the BNP stand a very good chance. Referendum on Oct 23rd.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Oct 12, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Stoke Labour Party have triggered a referendum on getting rid of the Mayoral system, because they're in utter dissary and the BNP stand a very good chance. Referendum on Oct 23rd.



Indeed. The Mayoral system has quite a bit of opposition anyway, but at this point I have no idea which way it'll go. I can see turnout being quite low. I've had 1 thing through the post about it, and that was a few months ago. Other than that, all I've seen is a couple of billboards with the date on. I don't read the local rag though, but imagine there's been a fair amount of coverage in there. No idea what their take on it is. 

I'll be voting to get rid of the Mayor.


----------



## audiotech (Oct 12, 2008)

Two elections October 9th.

Kent County Council, Herne Bay

Con 47.7% (+7.6%)
LD 29.4% (-3.3%)
Lab 10.4% (-13.1%)
BNP 7.7% (N/A)
UKIP 4.9% (+1.3%)

Haringay Alexandra

LD 1460 49.9%
Lab 772 26.4%
Con 443 15.2%
Green 221  7.6%
BNP 27 0.9%


----------



## Al Kahul (Oct 12, 2008)

MC5 said:


> Two elections October 9th.
> 
> Kent County Council, Herne Bay
> 
> ...



so utterly crap results for the BNP.
The best way for the BNP not to win is to vote for the party most likely to beat them. Calling locals Nazis or setting up  some loony left party to split the vote is only in the BNP's Interest.


----------



## audiotech (Oct 12, 2008)

Al Kahul said:


> so utterly crap results for the BNP.
> The best way for the BNP not to win is to vote for the party most likely to beat them. Calling locals Nazis or setting up some loony left party to split the vote is only in the BNP's Interest.


 
'Split the vote'? How loony is that.


----------



## Al Kahul (Oct 12, 2008)

pretty fucking stupid  if the point is to stop the BNP


----------



## JimPage (Oct 12, 2008)

Al Kahul said:


> so utterly crap results for the BNP.
> The best way for the BNP not to win is to vote for the party most likely to beat them. Calling locals Nazis or setting up  some loony left party to split the vote is only in the BNP's Interest.




1. Haringey was a training exercise for them in their second to worst ward, in their worst london borough, to give their new Haringey unit experience at fighting elections.  Herne Bay wasnt bad for them in a huge county ward covering 4 council wards

2. A socialist party to compete with them in elections is , in the long run, the only way to beat them. And only in the 2 Scottish wards will there be a left alternative


----------



## Al Kahul (Oct 12, 2008)

JimPage said:


> 1. Haringey was a training exercise for them in their second to worst ward, in their worst london borough, to give their new Haringey unit experience at fighting elections.  Herne Bay wasnt bad for them in a huge county ward covering 4 council wards
> 
> 2. A socialist party to compete with them in elections is , in the long run, the only way to beat them. And only in the 2 Scottish wards will there be a left alternative



how is a socialist party the only way to beat them ? Why would people who believe they have a grievance with non white people suddenly vote for a party that will enforce 'positive' discrimination and call then Nazis ?


----------



## Vintage Paw (Oct 12, 2008)

Facepalm anyone?


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 21, 2008)

BNP lose seat in Kirklees, the one that failed leadership challenger Colin Auty was elected in (technically not a loss as he was now standing as an independent):

*Kirklees MBC, Dewsbury East*
Lab 1513 (37.4;-2.0), 
Lib Dem 1405 (34.8;+14.3),
 BNP 690 (17.1;-10.6),
 Con 345 (8.5;-3.9),
 Green 58 (1.4;+1.4),
 Ind 17 (0.4;+0.4),
 Ind 15 (0.4;+0.4)

Couple of others last week

*Redcar and Cleveland BC (UA), South Bank*
Lab 652 (49.9;-0.6),
 Lib Dem 288 (22.1;+12.3),
 BNP 206 (15.8;+1.4),
 Ind 101 (7.7;-7.3),
 Con 59 (4.5;-5.8)

*Watford BC, Tudor*
Lib Dem 932 (50.0;+3.1),
 Con 486 (26.1;-12.4),
 Lab 273 (14.6;+4.0),
 Green 91 (4.9;+0.9),
 BNP 83 (4.5;+4.5)


----------



## HarrisonSlade (Oct 22, 2008)

Why is the BNP such a threat anyhow? What are they going to do if they ever get in? 

Get police to burst into the many houses of "illegal" immigrants, in the early hours of the morning, to have them incarcerated, then shipped "back 'ome"? Of which is happening now?

Support the killing of innocent people, just in case they might just be a "terrorist"? Something that is supported right the way from Gordon Brown to Ken Livingstone.

Send troops to kill over a million foreigners to secure the selfish Aryan agenda? Like Blair did.

Set up concentration camps around the world to deal with "terrorists"? Like Abu Graib, Guantanamo Bay, etc, etc.

All the BNP stands for is just another way to frighten people into the farce that we call the "democratic" system. You see? Vote Labour/Tory or the evil Nazis will get in. Well let me tell you something, they are here already, and you are voting for them to stop them from getting in.


----------



## audiotech (Oct 22, 2008)

16 October 2008
Cockton Hill Ward by-election restult:

Labour 424; Liberal 386; *BNP 67*

23% Turnout


----------



## durruti02 (Oct 22, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> BNP lose seat in Kirklees, the one that failed leadership challenger Colin Auty was elected in (technically not a loss as he was now standing as an independent):
> 
> *Kirklees MBC, Dewsbury East*
> Lab 1513 (37.4;-2.0),
> ...


  he didn't stand against them though .. that would have been funny!


----------



## durruti02 (Oct 22, 2008)

HarrisonSlade said:


> Why is the BNP such a threat anyhow? What are they going to do if they ever get in?
> 
> Get police to burst into the many houses of "illegal" immigrants, in the early hours of the morning, to have them incarcerated, then shipped "back 'ome"? Of which is happening now?
> 
> ...



hi HS .. this is a thread to simply report on what they are up too   i tend to agree with you .. others on this thread will not but please start another thread if you want to debate ..


----------



## JimPage (Oct 25, 2008)

durruti02 said:


> he didn't stand against them though .. that would have been funny!



He nominated the bottom placed independant,Alan Girvan, who polled 15 votes....


----------



## JimPage (Oct 25, 2008)

4 by elections thursday 

Charnwood BC, Loughborough Dishley and Hathern
Lab 838 
Con 490 
BNP 234 (13.9%)
LD   107 
NF    16 (0.9%) 

Chichester DC, East Wittering
Con 410 
LD   364 
BNP 125 (12.3%)
Lab   69 
UKIP  49 

Wolverhampton MBC, Wednesfield North
Tory   1295
Labour 1072 
BNP 337 (11.9%)
Lib  156

Wolverhampton MBC, Wednesfield South
Con 1123 
Lab  867
BNP 358 (14.4%)
Lib   134 

Take a step back and look at these results as a whole. All over 10% . In all 4 they beat a major party. Very good result in West Sussex, in that well known fascist hotspot, suburban Chichester

In addition to those by elections previsouly advised, Hillingdon Northwood Hills, Darlington North Road and Boston Fenside over the next month


----------



## badco (Oct 25, 2008)

The Pious Pawn said:


> they are getting votes because they are feeding on peoples fears , There is a open door policy on immigration in this country until that is sorted they will keep using it as one of there tools to get more and more votes .



Haven't the BNP always used this as a tactic to get votes?It's nothing new is it?

I agree with there stance on immigration BTW


----------



## JimPage (Oct 25, 2008)

http://www.bnp. (BROKEN LINK)             org.uk/bnp-resources/ac-meetings/

FYI

Their tactics, strategy, elections report and membership numbers breakdown, lots of useful info here


----------



## durruti02 (Oct 26, 2008)

JimPage said:


> 4 by elections thursday
> 
> Charnwood BC, Loughborough Dishley and Hathern
> Lab 838
> ...



hi jim . .. yes again solid 3rd places but i would think they would be disappointed with the wolves votes though.. 

northwood will be interesting ... close to where they have cllrs in oxhey

p.s. whats the deal with the NF these days .. do they have anything outside of south east london? is there any differrence or is there existance just down to personality?


----------



## durruti02 (Oct 26, 2008)

JimPage said:


> http://www.bnp. (BROKEN LINK)             org.uk/bnp-resources/ac-meetings/
> 
> FYI
> 
> Their tactics, strategy, elections report and membership numbers breakdown, lots of useful info here



1)ac meeting minutes - piss poor - and bringing back richard edmonds! LOL . .. and the motions are all pretty backward though the last 'reserve' one is interesting 

2)membership .. 9k .. do we believe that? is it up or down 

3)elections - mostly 4th places but a few 3rds and one second .. they could claim to be the 3rd and a half party at the minute .. think we picked up on all of them previously though


----------



## JimPage (Oct 31, 2008)

2 results from yesterday. Workington result self evidently good for them. 

Getting indciations of a big push at the county council elections in June 2009-and a huge push at the council elections in London in 2010- a promise of "Hundreds" of candidates - so that gives Socialists in London 18 months to get their act tgteher

Workington St Johns Ward, Allerdale DC
Lab 452 
Con 394 
BNP 257 (20.2%)
Ind 113
Green 55

Kentish Town Ward, LB Camden
LD 939 
Lab 863 
Green 518
Con 171
BNP 62 (2.4%)
UKIP 21


----------



## audiotech (Nov 7, 2008)

Baillieston ward by-election (Glasgow) thursday 6th november

ANDERSON, John Scottish Conservative and Unionist 226 
BAILLIE, Charles British National Party 46 
CASSIDY, David Scottish National Party (SNP) 2027 
CRAWFORD, Moira A Scottish Green Party 32 
JACKSON, David Scottish Liberal Democrats 142 
MUIR, Andy Scottish Labour Party Elected 2257 
O'DONNELL, Daniel Scottish Socialist Party-Scrap Council Tax 88 


Final round:
Muir 2383
Cassidy 2193

Percentage votes with changes from previous Baillieston by-election just a few weeks ago on 18th September.

Lab: 46.8% (+5.1)
SNP: 42.1% (-2.5)
Con: 4.7% (-0.3)
LD: 2.9% (-0.2)
SSP: 1.8% (+0.7)
BNP: 1.0% (-0.4)
Grn: 0.7% (-0.2)
Others: - (-2.2)


----------



## JimPage (Nov 14, 2008)

Some bad news to make your friday even glummer

By election yestserday for Boston Council Fenside ward ( Lincolnshire) first  BNP by election win for ages, and for a district council seat on Boston DC not a dibby dibby parish council somewhere

David Paul Owens (British National Party) 279
Carl Michael Smith (Boston Bypass Independent) 141
Paul Frederick Mould (Conservative Party Candidate) 119
Norman Alan Hart (The Labour Party Candidate) 64
Cyril Wakefield (U.K. Independence Party) 24
Gavin Leigh Carrington (Liberal Democrat) 23

42% Vote for the fash

10% in Darlington and 14% in Hinckley as well yesterday


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 14, 2008)

Was just going to post this up myself. Need to check previous results in area when i get a chance.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 14, 2008)

First, and worrying thought, is that this had been prime UKIP turf for the last decade hasn't it - two MEPS and 20%? Not sure how that played out in local elections, but their ongoing collapse is going to cut down that sizable euro vote in next mays elections. approx 10% is needed for a seat and the BNP managed 4.3% in 2004, but with a good chunk of that UKIP 20% vote potentially up for grabs...

edit: those euro figues: if this is in 

east mids it's 13% required for a MEP and 6.5% achieved in 2004.
East england 10% and 4.3%


UKIP vote approx 20% in both constituencies.


----------



## JimPage (Nov 14, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> First, and worrying thought, is that this had been prime UKIP turf for the last decade hasn't it - two MEPS and 20%? Not sure how that played out in local elections, but their ongoing collapse is going to cut down that sizable euro vote in next mays elections. approx 10% is needed for a seat and the BNP managed 4.3% in 2004, but with a good chunk of that UKIP 20% vote potentially up for grabs...
> 
> edit: those euro figues: if this is in
> 
> ...



discussion here which gives more info on the ward , which used to be solid labour- and who polled 65% in the ward in 2003. very poor share of vote by all mainstream parties, and UKIP, significantly, decimated here 

Lib dem vote unspeakable.....


http://www.vote-2007.co.uk/index.php?topic=2458.45


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 14, 2008)

Thanks for that link jim, interesting stuff. Again, worrying that people who know the area say that as soon as the BNP got it together to orgnaise in the area this happened. Given that there's thousands of areas just like this...


----------



## JimPage (Nov 15, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Thanks for that link jim, interesting stuff. Again, worrying that people who know the area say that as soon as the BNP got it together to orgnaise in the area this happened. Given that there's thousands of areas just like this...



Exactly, and they are yet to find all of their areas of strength themselves. 

Not that many elections in the run up to winter, but they are standing in elections in Walsall, Whitehaven, Hillingdon (I think). and one in a ward in North West Leicestershire which they nearly won in a by election earlier this year

Democratic Nationalist standing in a by-election in Bingley


----------



## durruti02 (Nov 15, 2008)

JimPage said:


> Some bad news to make your friday even glummer
> 
> By election yestserday for Boston Council Fenside ward ( Lincolnshire) first  BNP by election win for ages, and for a district council seat on Boston DC not a dibby dibby parish council somewhere
> 
> ...


yes they are all bad results for us .. boston though has particular issues re migrnat labour due to its economy afaik .. are we aware this was used by the bnp at all? there is also some split in local politics over this by pass thing .. p.s. the cllr has kindly left his mobile number if anyone in the ward wishes to ask him questions ..


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## Flanflinger (Nov 16, 2008)

Before the May 3rd elections the BNP had 49 councillors. 9 of these councillors were up for re-election; only 1 was re-elected. I'll lay money the newly elected numbskull will get booted out come the next round of elections.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 16, 2008)

Flanflinger said:


> Before the May 3rd elections the BNP had 49 councillors. 9 of these councillors were up for re-election; only 1 was re-elected. I'll lay money the newly elected numbskull will get booted out come the next round of elections.



That's the figure for 2007.

This year they had 7 re-elected and went +10.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 12, 2008)

First big test post-publication of membership list - wow, looks like they're damaged below the water-line:


*Durham Town Council*

Mark Walker (BNP)239
Theda Mary Bannister (Lab) 240
Henry Nichloson (Lab) polled 253.

Two seats up for grabs so only 2 votes short of their second seat in a few weeks.

And this with Walker, the teacher sacked for looking at racist stuff on line in class time and various other allegations hanging over his head being the candidate. Yep, shaming and naming really does work.


----------



## Red O (Dec 12, 2008)

Where was this, Butch?


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 12, 2008)

Opps, Durham Town Council, will edit that in.

Two seats up for grabs so only 2 votes short of their second seat in a few weeks.


----------



## JimPage (Dec 12, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Opps, Durham Town Council, will edit that in.
> 
> Two seats up for grabs so only 2 votes short of their second seat in a few weeks.



Shildon Town Council, Sunnyhill Ward

Lab      253
Lab      240
BNP      239
Ind       174
Ind       124
Lib Dem   78
Lib Dem   68
Socialist  11

2 Vacancies

As to relative votes, i cant find a ward map to indicate which ward this refers to at District level, but in the Durham County Council Elections in May 2008 they polled  9.4% in Shildon East and 9.7% in Shildon West- which were their 7th and 8th strongest wards in Durham


----------



## JimPage (Dec 12, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> First big test post-publication of membership list - wow, looks like they're damaged below the water-line:
> 
> And this with Walker, the teacher sacked for looking at racist stuff on line in class time and various other allegations hanging over his head being the candidate. Yep, shaming and naming really does work.



And the other allegations were very serious as well

Next week 2 elections to watch out for, in Whitehaven and North West Leicestershire


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 12, 2008)

Their four Shildon candidates in may picked up from 252 -294 votes (from 8.7% to 9.7%). I would expect a lower turnout last night (not confirmed yet though) which would i suggests means that they've at _the very least_ held onto all their may voters, and at worst means they've managed to attract more. Of course mainstram voters staying away would help their relative postion as well, Either way, it appears they've held onto their core vote post-list leaking and with the sort of candidate who ideally fits the name and shame model that the pro-status quo anti-fascists are still urging people to adopt.


----------



## JimPage (Dec 12, 2008)

Election Results from May- 2 vacancies easch ward

May 2008 Shildon East 
Labour 872, 827 (Elected) 
Independent 528
Liberal Democrats 403
Independent 349    
Conservative 309, 269 
BNP 254, 257

May 2008 Shildon West
Liberal Democrats 917 Elected 
Independent 685 Elected 
Labour 636, 537  
Independent 479  
Liberal Democrats 473 
British National Party 292, 264


----------



## audiotech (Dec 12, 2008)

Hillingdon - Northwood.

Conservative 1,216
Lib Dems 466
Labour 116
Green 66
Nat Front 25 Frank McAllister


----------



## audiotech (Dec 12, 2008)

Apparently, in Barking & Dagenham tonight, at the Council Assembly meeting, there's been a bit of a fall-out. The Chair called security to escort the BNP's Lawerence Rustem from the Chamber.

Rumour has it that Barnbrook has totally distanced himself from the BNP leader on B & D Council and the leader, Bob Bailey, is distancing himself from any articles on the London BNP website, attributed to him. 

Allegedly?


----------



## durruti02 (Dec 13, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Opps, Durham Town Council, will edit that in.
> 
> Two seats up for grabs so only 2 votes short of their second seat in a few weeks.


hey isn't that trevs manor?? LOL


----------



## JimPage (Dec 18, 2008)

http://www.bnp-chronicle.com/2008/12/special-branch-mi5-approach-bnp-members.html

One for those interested in spook- hunting and the activities of spooks

Not that they would do this sort of thing to the left as well...


----------



## Zachor (Dec 18, 2008)

MC5 said:


> Apparently, in Barking & Dagenham tonight, at the Council Assembly meeting, there's been a bit of a fall-out. The Chair called security to escort the BNP's Lawerence Rustem from the Chamber.
> 
> Rumour has it that Barnbrook has totally distanced himself from the BNP leader on B & D Council and the leader, Bob Bailey, is distancing himself from any articles on the London BNP website, attributed to him.
> 
> Allegedly?



Apparently this was over Rustem screaming in the council chamber about sex education for under 11s being encouragement for paedophillia.  I'm surprised at this as I'd always had Rustem down as one of the more inteligent educated fash and one of their few candidates of ethnic minority (Turkish in Rustems case) background


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 19, 2008)

More evidence the list being leaked has massively harmed them:

* Kells & Sandwith (Whitehaven) By Election - 18 December 2008*
Labour 434 - 41.7% down 24.2%
BNP 418 - 40.1% 
Conservative 190 - 18.2% up 1.3%

They also missed the Ibstock and Heather ward by 15 votes last night as well, with labour massively down apparently(as above). Full result to come.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 19, 2008)

That ibstock result:

Ibstock
Con - 660
bnp - 647
Lab - 614
Lib dem - 174
T/o 37.4%


----------



## trevhagl (Dec 19, 2008)

durruti02 said:


> hey isn't that trevs manor?? LOL



Shildon and other old pit villages south of Durham are like Nuremburg. Worse than East London!! Luckily i live miles away!


----------



## trevhagl (Dec 19, 2008)

mind you you couldn't vote Tory, nor New Labour after all the privatisation, big brother obsession etc, so decent people just stay away


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Dec 19, 2008)

trevhagl said:


> Shildon and other old pit villages south of Durham are like Nuremburg. Worse than East London!! Luckily i live miles away!



Different Trevor.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## JimPage (Dec 19, 2008)

Cumbria County Council
Whitehaven Kells & Sandwith Ward

Best BNP County Council result ever in a ward which turned in a  65% vote for Labour in 2005.  2005 result Lab 1367 Ind 357 Con 350. 

Labour 434
BNP 418 ( 40.1%)
Conservative 190 



North West Leicestershire
Ibstock & Heather Ward

Conservative 660
BNP 645 (30.9%)
Labour 614
Lib Dems 174

BNP vote up by 2.7% from by election in this ward in Jan 2008. Labour polled 70% here in 1999


But dont worry,as in wales in a by election in Wales the Communist Candidate beat the tories. The fact that he polled 12 votes is neither here nor there...........

Rhondda Cynon Taff BC Glyncoch,
Lab 217
Ind 143 
Plaid 47 
Communist 12
Con 11


----------



## durruti02 (Dec 19, 2008)

trevhagl said:


> Shildon and other old pit villages south of Durham are like Nuremburg. Worse than East London!! Luckily i live miles away!


 hi trev .. sorry mate meant attica/the black hand/trevor  .. he always claimed the strenghth of old school labourism menat the BNP had no chance in these areas lol


----------



## durruti02 (Dec 19, 2008)

JimPage said:


> Cumbria County Council
> Whitehaven Kells & Sandwith Ward
> 
> Best BNP County Council result ever in a ward which turned in a  65% vote for Labour in 2005.  2005 result Lab 1367 Ind 357 Con 350.
> ...



that is two scarey results


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 19, 2008)

So, in the last month we've had a win and 3 defeats by one vote, by 15 votes and by 16 votes, Yes, the list being leaked has really hurt them - this is in fact their best run of form for some time. And that Cumbria 40% was from nowhere, and slap bang in the middle of Grifins target euro-election ward...


----------



## audiotech (Dec 19, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> So, in the last month we've had a win and 3 deaftaes by i vote, by 15 votes and by 16 votes, Yes, the list being leaked has really hurt them - this is in fact their best run of form for some time. And that Cumbria 40% was from nowhere, and slap bang in the middle of Grifins target euro-election ward...


 
The leak of the list was alway's gonna give the BNP publicity, so why do you assume it was leaked to 'hurt them'?


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 19, 2008)

You'll notice that i didn't mention the motivation of the leakers, or rather, you won't, as you've replied to me as if i had.

 People here and elsewhere argued that it would hurt them, they would be exposed to ridicule, people wouldn't want to join or vote for them as a result. It's the sort of line that _you_, for instance, normally take. 

 And tell me why it was leaked  it if not under the assumption that it _would_ hurt them, and Griffin in particular? Have you some grand apolitical (this being a characterstic of all you ever post anymore) conspiracy?


----------



## JimPage (Jan 15, 2009)

Back on the election trail-  forthcoming elections with BNP Candidates in Bexley, Croydon, Canvey Island, Lewisham, Newcastle, Tameside, Broxtowe, North West Leicestershire and Uckfield

Keep your eyes on Tameside in particular, a very winnabel ward for them


----------



## Dan U (Jan 15, 2009)

JimPage said:


> Back on the election trail-  forthcoming elections with BNP Candidates in Bexley, Croydon, Canvey Island, Lewisham, Newcastle, Tameside, North West Leicestershire and Uckfield
> 
> Keep your eyes on Tameside in particular, a very winnabel ward for them



do you know what ward in Croydon?

Can think of a few i doubt it will be but if it's mine i'll make a pointing of voting to keep the cunts out.

eta - just looked, it's Waddon it seems. Not me but one of the areas i thought it might be.


----------



## grogwilton (Jan 15, 2009)

I have a friend who lives in a ward they have been targetting in croydon. He had one of their leaflets pushed through his door and he followed the fash down the road, gave him back the flyer and pushed him over. Must have been a surprise to the scum, he is a palace supporting engineer who wears a chain outside his polo shirt with the collar turned up and has a thick south london accent!


----------



## JimPage (Jan 16, 2009)

Dan U said:


> do you know what ward in Croydon?
> 
> Can think of a few i doubt it will be but if it's mine i'll make a pointing of voting to keep the cunts out.
> 
> eta - just looked, it's Waddon it seems. Not me but one of the areas i thought it might be.



Yep- confirm Waddon. They polled about 6% in the ward in May 2008 so its a slightly better than average ward from them- and If i recall the area its an area which coudl do better for them iof they put in some effort

BNP also fighting Lewisham Downham by election - with ex BNPers turned NFer tuned BNper again Tess Culnane is candidate for them


----------



## audiotech (Jan 16, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> You'll notice that i didn't mention the motivation of the leakers, or rather, you won't, as you've replied to me as if i had.
> 
> People here and elsewhere argued that it would hurt them, they would be exposed to ridicule, people wouldn't want to join or vote for them as a result. It's the sort of line that _you_, for instance, normally take.
> 
> And tell me why it was leaked it if not under the assumption that it _would_ hurt them, and Griffin in particular? Have you some grand apolitical (this being a characterstic of all you ever post anymore) conspiracy?


 
^ I've just spotted this crap.

Your the one with the conspracy theories, particularly anything to do with with _Searchlight_. I don't do them. Oh, and I _never_ followed any line, so fuck your bullshit.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 16, 2009)

Searchlight
Unite against fascism
How many more anti BNP orgs are there?


----------



## JimPage (Jan 17, 2009)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> Searchlight
> Unite against fascism
> How many more anti BNP orgs are there?



Antifa of course, and a few very local groups are are not allied to any group


----------



## durruti02 (Jan 17, 2009)

"Urgent Campaign Day - Welling Ward, Bexley & Bromley. Saturday 17th January.

Dear Friend,

We have been asked to mobilise campaigners for this Saturday in Welling Ward ahead of a by-election on Thursday 22nd January.

The reason this is significant is that the BNP are now looking like they could be in touching distance of winning the seat. We cannot afford for them to get a boost so close to their Barking & Dagenham stronghold.

The local Labour party organizer has said that the last round of canvassing and ward polling has shown  conclusively that the BNP could well take the seat. The is a cross party agreement with the Lib Dems and others to take on the BNP as the threat is so strong.

So much so that we have just had intelligence that this Saturday outright Nazi and leader of the BNP Nick Griffin is coming to the ward to make a special appearance as part of the BNP's last push to win. The BNP 'Truth truck' (lie lorry would be more accurate!)  will also be there.

The Local Labour party and Lib Dems have agreed to jointly attack the BNP, whose local candidate is an ex-police officer and relation to BNP GLA member Richard Barnbrook.

The local Party's and the Hope not Hate are putting out a London wide call for support on Sat 17th to help campaign and deliver a hard hitting and unexpected leaflet exposing some grim facts about the local BNP.

We are planning to meet at 10am at Welling Station this Saturday 17th.

There will be an eve of poll leaflet drop on Weds 21st as well from a local community figure condemning the BNP if you are available to help with that.

Address:Welling Station, Station approach, Welling, Kent
DA163AU

Transport: Welling Station is 30 Mins from Waterloo East Station.

This one really is urgent, we cant afford for the BNP cancer to spread to this part of London. I hope you can join us and help out.

Sam Tarry & Cllr John White - Joint Co-ordinators of B&D Hope not Hate.

For more information call 07971-819-830
www.hopenothate.org.uk"


----------



## CUMBRIANDRAGON (Jan 18, 2009)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> Searchlight
> Unite against fascism
> How many more anti BNP orgs are there?




Im starting my new anti-racist group this year.

G.M.Y.M. ANTI-RACIST COLLECTIVE.

give me your money .anti racist collective.

Anti-racism is great for business


----------



## CUMBRIANDRAGON (Jan 18, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> "Urgent Campaign Day - Welling Ward, Bexley & Bromley. Saturday 17th January.
> 
> Dear Friend,
> 
> ...



It would make more sense to build a community action network.All this anti bnp stuff is a waste of time.

The only anti stuff that may work would be anti political party festival.
Or community action festival. 

The only way to win is community action. Imagine if all these anti bnp groups put their energy into really building up community action groups .The bnp would be seen in their true light nazi power crazed spoilt brats.


----------



## jo southcott (Jan 19, 2009)

I've just joined this site. It's a refreshing antidote to many on the left, huddling around in their anoraks for warmth. But, to paraphrase someone or other, the point is to change things. Despite Trevor  Phillips' massively optimistic comments about Britain today we can't help be worried about the BNP, even in South London. Let's not forget the Anti Nazi League, warts and all, perhaps the only example ofthe radical  left succeding in even limited aims. So it can be done. It's that slow, patient 'community politics (just like the Lib Dems in Bermonsey) that's brought the BNP a whole new layer  of support, like in Stoke. And, of course, its attraction will only grown as the recession deepens.  Can we start anything locally?


----------



## treelover (Jan 19, 2009)

> Im starting my new anti-racist group this year.
> 
> G.M.Y.M. ANTI-RACIST COLLECTIVE.
> 
> ...




Is it true that Unite paid for tens of thousands of leaflets for the abortive UAF march thu London , which basically were never distributed and were still in boxes on the day of the march.

not exactly, value for money, is it?


----------



## CUMBRIANDRAGON (Jan 19, 2009)

treelover said:


> Is it true that Unite paid for tens of thousands of leaflets for the abortive UAF march thu London , which basically were never distributed and were still in boxes on the day of the march.
> 
> not exactly, value for money, is it?



The people that matter in UAF got their wages out of it thoe lol


----------



## HST (Jan 19, 2009)

The Waddon (Croydon) bye election in on Thursday 12th of Feb. The BNP candidate is Charlotte Lewis, from Thornton Heath. She's stood for the BNP before.  

If anyone's interested this is her 

http://en-gb.facebook.com/people/Charlotte-Lewis/1413277405


----------



## durruti02 (Jan 19, 2009)

CUMBRIANDRAGON said:


> It would make more sense to build a community action network.All this anti bnp stuff is a waste of time.
> 
> The only anti stuff that may work would be anti political party festival.
> Or community action festival.
> ...


totally agree with you mate .. too much like hard work i think


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 21, 2009)

CUMBRIANDRAGON said:


> The people that matter in UAF got their wages out of it thoe lol


 who are they, and what do they get paid?


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 21, 2009)

CUMBRIANDRAGON said:


> It would make more sense to build a community action network.All this anti bnp stuff is a waste of time.
> 
> The only anti stuff that may work would be anti political party festival.
> Or community action festival.
> ...


 politics to me is the decision process by which that which is produced by society is divided amongst society.  So how could an ACTION network, which presumably takes action to ensure what is produced by society is distributed more equitably, be said to be anti political?

And when you say win, do you mean we within capitalism, or by over throwing it?


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 23, 2009)

The good results keep coming:

*East wickham ward by-election(Bexley) *

Tory 798 
BNP 790 
Lab 700 
LDem 564 
ED 128

The ED candiate might get a smack in the gob tonight.

*Canvey East town council*

IND 429
Tories 328
BNP 229
Labour 151

One other count today in Bentswood ward (Mid Sussex DC). Can someone do the % on that Canvey one?


----------



## JimPage (Jan 23, 2009)

Bexley East Wickham 26.5%
Canvey Island East 20.1%
Mid Sussex Bentswood 6.6%

I think it is now fair to say what was becoming obvious since their win in Boston in November - they are succesfully taking advantage of the recession


----------



## glenquagmire (Jan 23, 2009)

jo southcott said:


> It's that slow, patient 'community politics (just like the Lib Dems in Bermonsey)



Eh?


----------



## JimPage (Jan 23, 2009)

As a comparison to the East Wickham results, here are the ward level results for this ward from May 2008 for the GLA Elections. BNP second even then  but tory majority has since collapsed. And this isnt the BNP`S best ward in Bexley either. I wont pass comment of the left results here.....  

Conservative       1452
BNP                     530
Labour Party         510
Lib Dem                234
UKIP                    160
Abolish Con Charge 102
Green Party            95
English Democrat     74
Christian Choice      72
Respect                  8
One London             6
Left List                  5
Peace & Socialism     2
Alagaratnam, Rathy   0


----------



## glenquagmire (Jan 23, 2009)

JimPage said:


> Left List                  5
> Peace & Socialism     2


----------



## treelover (Jan 23, 2009)

BA, do you mean that had they not stood, the ED vote would have gone to the BNP and they would have won?


btw, these are % there far left can only dream of, yet if you go to blogs like Socialist Unity, you would think there was no problem: particulalry as they think the IP issue is giving them momentum in some communities, haven'they learn't from the Respect debacle. Until the left focuses on the basics, the far right will continue to grow.


----------



## Gavin Bl (Jan 23, 2009)

JimPage said:


> Bexley East Wickham 26.5%
> Canvey Island East 20.1%
> Mid Sussex Bentswood 6.6%
> 
> I think it is now fair to say what was becoming obvious since their win in Boston in November - they are succesfully taking advantage of the recession



Glad to see they did get too far in bentswood (though its still one vote in 15) - thats Haywards Heath, largely a very affluent commuter town in West Sussex. 

Bentswood is basically the poor bit - the only bit of the entire town (pop ~30K) that votes Labour - so it must fit the bill for them. Didn't even realise they were standing till very, very recently. 

From the list that was leaked, they have literally 3 or 4 members there - but I think they have a bit of a base in Crawley to the north.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 23, 2009)

I suspect that would be the case yes tl. Can't tell for sure though.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jan 23, 2009)

treelover said:


> BA, do you mean that had they not stood, the ED vote would have gone to the BNP and they would have won?
> 
> 
> btw, these are % there far left can only dream of, yet if you go to blogs like Socialist Unity, you would think there was no problem: particulalry as they think the IP issue is giving them momentum in some communities, haven'they learn't from the Respect debacle. Until the left focuses on the basics, the far right will continue to grow.


 the fascist have succeeded in many places where the left where focusing on the basic issues, haven't they?


----------



## JimPage (Jan 23, 2009)

treelover said:


> BA, do you mean that had they not stood, the ED vote would have gone to the BNP and they would have won?
> 
> 
> btw, these are % there far left can only dream of, yet if you go to blogs like Socialist Unity, you would think there was no problem: particulalry as they think the IP issue is giving them momentum in some communities, haven'they learn't from the Respect debacle. Until the left focuses on the basics, the far right will continue to grow.



It was a mix of a very strong tory campaign here and an EDP candidate which kept them out. EDP are glaoting like hell about keeping out the BNP on the UKIP forum, while still having a go at the Lib Dems for standing a Scottish canddiate here


----------



## JimPage (Jan 23, 2009)

One more to watch - By election in Sevonoaks Swanley St Mary- where they have potential to do well

Intresting seeing the nominations for Downham. Lib Dems are standing Duwayne Brooks, the man  who was with Steven Lawrence when he was murdered.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 23, 2009)

JimPage said:


> One more to watch - By election in Sevonoaks Swanley St Mary- where they have potential to do well
> 
> Intresting seeing the nominations for Downham. Lib Dems are standing Duwayne Brooks, the man  who was with Steven Lawrence when he was murdered.



Really? That _is_ interesting.

(Get ready for the intenet rumours about what *really* happened to start circulating again)


----------



## JimPage (Jan 23, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> Really? That _is_ interesting.
> 
> (Get ready for the intenet rumours about what *really* happened to start circulating again)



Yup, conformed that it is him standing. Without wanting to sound mawkish I am pleased that Mr Brooks has turned an experience which would have turned me into an emotional wreck into something positive- like the man who beat the BNP politically in Downham


----------



## durruti02 (Jan 23, 2009)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> the fascist have succeeded in many places where the left where focusing on the basic issues, haven't they?


maybe wrong thread to answer you rmp, but where exactly have the fasc suceeded where the left have been doing the basics? i don't believe this to be true


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 30, 2009)

Another very good result:

29 January 2009
Byelection Results for Fenham Wards 

Con 186 
BNP 836 (25%, up from 9% in may 08)
Lib Dem	1,049
Lab 1,025 

 The 9% was apparently based on one leaflet and no other work, so they come back and do a bit more work and get the result...that suggests a lot of as yet unexploited room to expand into.


----------



## JimPage (Jan 30, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> Another very good result:
> 
> 29 January 2009
> Byelection Results for Fenham Wards
> ...



Best ever vote for them in newcastle, against the lib dems who normally are able to see them off


----------



## treelover (Jan 30, 2009)

Fenham is a very mixed inner city area, afaik, asians, students, wwc, 

not good, if this can happpen there, it can happen in any inner city areas, the pace quickens


----------



## JimPage (Jan 30, 2009)

treelover said:


> Fenham is a very mixed inner city area, afaik, asians, students, wwc,
> 
> not good, if this can happpen there, it can happen in any inner city areas, the pace quickens



This is their tenth strongest ward in Newcastle based on May 2008 results


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Jan 30, 2009)

treelover said:


> Fenham is a very mixed inner city area, afaik, asians, students, wwc,
> 
> not good, if this can happpen there, it can happen in any inner city areas, the pace quickens



The BNP are claiming that just over 1 in 10 of the ward's population are from ethnic minorities.

Louis MacNeice


----------



## treelover (Jan 30, 2009)

yes, but the surrounding area is more asian, voting is often about perception


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## Louis MacNeice (Jan 30, 2009)

treelover said:


> yes, but the surrounding area is more asian, voting is often about perception



Not really the point I was rying to make. I was more pointin up that they got 27% of the total poll from a smaller potential electorate than the three big parties; the amount of resonance that their message has with their target constituents is higher thatn the straight forward figures might lead you to believe.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## JimPage (Jan 30, 2009)

One more relevant thing about BNP prospects in the future is that UKIP look ready to implode, with Rogen Knapman MEP leading this all

http://www.democracyforum.co.uk/ukip-general-issues/56737-letter-about-constitutional-changes.html


----------



## TomPaine (Jan 30, 2009)

> I suspect that would be the case yes tl. Can't tell for sure though.



I dunno if that would be the case. from the ED members I knew they where totally opposed to the BNP primarily because they had either multi-racial family, where Jewish or where anti the Union.

The Eds where stupid thought by not kicking certain suspect memebrs out and for the stupid Mayor election campaign. I think they lost a lot of members because of this.


----------



## grogwilton (Jan 30, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> maybe wrong thread to answer you rmp, but where exactly have the fasc suceeded where the left have been doing the basics? i don't believe this to be true



Agree about this being the wrong place to discuss this, but wasn't there and SP councillor who was unseated by a BNP candidate somewhere after an independent split the vote? Any SP members to confirm this?


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 30, 2009)

Really don't think so. That would have been massive news (on here) and i can't recall anything like it.


----------



## Fedayn (Jan 30, 2009)

grogwilton said:


> Agree about this being the wrong place to discuss this, but wasn't there and SP councillor who was unseated by a BNP candidate somewhere after an independent split the vote? Any SP members to confirm this?



Pretty sure this was in Stoke?!


----------



## JimPage (Jan 31, 2009)

grogwilton said:


> Agree about this being the wrong place to discuss this, but wasn't there and SP councillor who was unseated by a BNP candidate somewhere after an independent split the vote? Any SP members to confirm this?



It was stoke, where a councillor resigned from Labour and joined the SP. when he was up for re-election, BNP won the ward. Wholly right though that SP fougth the ward


----------



## audiotech (Feb 1, 2009)

Apparently, Charlotte Lewis, the BNP candidate and regional treasurer, standing for election in Croydon this month was found guilty of four harassment charges and jailed for six months in 2001.

This was part of a concerted campaign against the staff at Huntingdon Life Sciences, whom Ms Lewis called "animal abusing scum".

In one letter Lewis wrote:



> I was there when a brick was put through your window. If you don't quit HLS you can expect more of the same.


 
Another threatened:



> This is a warning. Your life is in grave danger if you don't stop working at HLS. You will find yourself having a gun aimed at your head.


 
Her DNA was matched with the saliva Lewis had used to stick the stamps on the letters.

From latest issue of _Searchlight_.


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## butchersapron (Feb 1, 2009)

As pointed out elsewhere, one of the main SHAC members recently sent down was ex-NF and also from Croydon. There's more than likely some connection.


----------



## audiotech (Feb 1, 2009)

Here's the harasser. Comments section not disabled yet. 

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=pbgu43K7oVk


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## trevhagl (Feb 1, 2009)

MC5 said:


> Apparently, Charlotte Lewis, the BNP candidate and regional treasurer, standing for election in Croydon this month was found guilty of four harassment charges and jailed for six months in 2001.
> 
> This was part of a concerted campaign against the staff at Huntingdon Life Sciences, whom Ms Lewis called "animal abusing scum".
> 
> ...



It's fucking funny they care about animals when they don't even care about humans!


----------



## trevhagl (Feb 1, 2009)

MC5 said:


> Here's the harasser. Comments section not disabled yet.
> 
> http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=pbgu43K7oVk



Nice and polite!! I was looking for the hand up her that was working her, or was she reading from an autocue? Wonder how the BNP's stance on law and order coincides with death threats?


----------



## audiotech (Feb 2, 2009)

trevhagl said:


> Nice and polite!! I was looking for the hand up her that was working her, or was she reading from an autocue? Wonder how the BNP's stance on law and order coincides with death threats?


 
Full report here.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 4, 2009)

Potentially winnable election tommorow:

*Hyde Newton Ward, Tameside - May 2008*
Liberal Democrat	 376
British National Party	 846
The Labour and Co-operative Party Candidate	 1,124
Conservative Party Candidate	 732


----------



## tangentlama (Feb 5, 2009)

BNP stands accused over leaflet drops

"FAR-RIGHT activists have been accused of “political intimidation” after encouraging neighbours to confront a prominent anti-racist campaigner in his own home.

About 20 members of the newly-formed far right group Wirral British National Party dropped 2,500 leaflets in Wallasey close to Merseyside Trade Union Congress leader Alec McFadden’s home. The leaflets urge people to confront Mr McFadden at his home and the maildrop coincided with him being in Liverpool at the front of an anti-racism rally.

The only people at home were Mr McFadden’s two teenage daughters, who have been brought up in the Jewish faith. Mr McFadden said: “They knew that I was leading the march, so they chose the moment to give these leaflets out, also knowing I’m a single parent with two teenage daughters.” 

Mr McFadden was repeatedly stabbed to the face and torso in front of his now 16-year-old daughter, on the doorstep of his home in May, 2006. He believes the assailant was a fascist sympathiser and has had to alter his day-to-day life to ward off future attacks by such “radical thugs”. Police have had to intervene after a neo-Nazi website featured pictures of Mr McFadden and he received death threats.

This weekend, Chief Supt Steve Ashley said the force was aware that leaflets were distributed in an area of Wallasey on Saturday. He said: “The content is being reviewed to determine if any criminal offence has been committed, and police patrols have been stepped up in the area.”

The latest pressure being applied on the trade union leader comes as the issue of “jobs from British workers” dominates many of the national papers. Wirral BNP literature says: “Instead of defending British Workers, McFadden was holding an anti-racism/anti-BNP march in Liverpool while workers were being made redundant.”


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## butchersapron (Feb 6, 2009)

*Hyde Newton Tameside*
Labour 1,379 45.6% +9.1
BNP 889 29.4% +1.9
Con 485 16.0% -7.8
LibDem 172 5.7% -6.5
Green 69 2.3% n/a
UKIP 33 1.1% n/a


Shows how far they've come that 29% is now considered a disappointment - also demonstrates the normalisation thesis very nicely:

2003: 578 votes (25.2%)
2004: 814 votes (all postal three-vacancy election)
2006: 761 votes (25.9%)
2007: 719 votes (24.1%)
2008: 846 votes (27.5%)
2009: 889 votes (29.4%)


----------



## pingupete (Feb 6, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> *Hyde Newton Tameside*
> Labour 1,379 45.6% +9.1
> BNP 889 29.4% +1.9
> Con 485 16.0% -7.8
> ...



Thanks for the history on the ward. If the BNP show that kind of % increase (between 2003 to 2009) on a regional basis, it will put them on the 7.5% they need to win a seat (according to Cruddas) should they finish as the 4th largest party ahead of the Greens and UKIP in the region.


----------



## JimPage (Feb 7, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> *Hyde Newton Tameside*
> Labour 1,379 45.6% +9.1
> BNP 889 29.4% +1.9
> Con 485 16.0% -7.8
> ...



Although i was intially content with this result in as much as they didnt win and their vote didnt go up that much, agree that this sort of thing doesnt raise an eyebrow any more

889 votes in a single council ward. Beating tories and liberals hands down, and UKip on 1.1% as well

They will win in the NW, i think. 2 council by-elections in Carlisle in a few weeks will also give an indication on how they will do

Eyes on elections in a few weeks of particualr interest in Swanley, North West Leicestershire and Newcastle-Under-Lyne


----------



## durruti02 (Feb 10, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> *Hyde Newton Tameside*
> Labour 1,379 45.6% +9.1
> BNP 889 29.4% +1.9
> Con 485 16.0% -7.8
> ...


 the Searchlight / HnH strategy in full effect i guess ..  not only has the turn out gone up, the Lab vote has suprisingly ( if you think of opinion polls at the mo ) gone up, and  it seems pretty clear that a % of the lib dems and tories have voted labour to keep the BNP out .. HnH claim a appeal by the churches and to progressive w/c values were key to the labour vote .. hmm


----------



## JimPage (Feb 12, 2009)

3 things of interest

By election upcoming in North Warwickshire- Atherstone- they have done fairly well in the past in nearby areas like Bedworth

Looks like big push at county council elections in June in addition to Euro poll

http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=17081

"Last week the BNP came third in a council by-election in Hyde, Greater Manchester, behind Labour, which held the seat, and the Liberal Democrats."

Am sure an accidental mistake by Socialist Worker on BNP votes


----------



## dennisr (Feb 12, 2009)

JimPage said:


> Am sure an accidental mistake by Socialist Worker on BNP votes



you would know all about accidental mistakes - are you still going down to batter those backward strikers Jim?

you realise you have lost all credibility as a concious anti-racist or anti-fascist who is capable of cutting across real backward movements (ie strategic or tactical nounce) don't you, Jim?


----------



## JimPage (Feb 12, 2009)

dennisr said:


> you would know all about accidental mistakes - are you still going down to batter those backward strikers Jim?
> 
> you realise you have lost all credibility as a concious anti-racist or anti-fascist who is capable of cutting across real backward movements (ie strategic or tactical nounce) don't you, Jim?



When did I say batter the strikers? 

This strike and the strikers are a symptom of a reactionary mood in society, of which the BNP are also a symptom. The people who have lost credibilty here are those political parties who preach anti fascism one moment, but then support what is clearly a Nationalist, Racist and Reactionary strike to the core.


----------



## dennisr (Feb 12, 2009)

JimPage said:


> When did I say batter the strikers?
> 
> This strike and the strikers are a symptom of a reactionary mood in society, of which the BNP are also a symptom. The people who have lost credibilty here are those political parties who preach anti fascism one moment, but then support what is clearly a Nationalist, Racist and Reactionary strike to the core.



Socialist Unity Website - 30 Jan around 10 am (beginning of the second day of the strike):

Jim Page says:
_"I think the first action is to expel any shop stewards involved here forthwith, and for the union leaders to condemn this strike

Secondly, its solidarity action with the foreign workers, making it clear they are welcome here

Thirdly, *confronting the racists on the picket line, just as we would a BNP mobilisation*"_

You fuckin idiot fantasist


----------



## dennisr (Feb 13, 2009)

JimPage said:


> clearly a Nationalist, Racist and Reactionary strike to the core.



evidence please


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 13, 2009)

*Waddon (Croydon) *

Con 1462 (46.0%)
Lab 1222 (38.5%)
BNP 157 (4.9%)
LD 150 (4.7%)
Green 115 (3.6%)
UKIP 48 (1.5%)
PC 13 (0.4%)
Loony 11 (0.4%)


----------



## dennisr (Feb 13, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> *Waddon (Croydon) *
> 
> Con 1462 (46.0%)
> Lab 1222 (38.5%)
> BNP 157 (4.9%)



A releif to see a low result for a change...

Here's a gem for the folk on u75 from a recent BNP candidate (even the BNP thought this beyond the pail though:

_"Rape is simply sex. Women enjoy sex, so rape cannot be such a terrible ordeal....To suggest that rape, when conducted without violence, is a serious crime is like suggesting that force-feeding a woman chocolate cake is a heinous offence. A woman would be more inconvenienced by having her handbag snatched."_

Nick Eriksen. The BNP removed him from the canditure


----------



## JimPage (Feb 13, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> *Waddon (Croydon) *
> 
> Con 1462 (46.0%)
> Lab 1222 (38.5%)
> ...



3 things on this pleasingly low vote.  It was down from May 2008 in this ward from 6.1%. The candidate was a walking disaster area, having been jailed in 2001 for her involvement in the HLS campaign- whioch was splashed all over the local papers. Thirdly, Griffin booted out the previous Croydon BNP organiser about a month ago for incompetence, so this may have something to do with their poor performance here

Its the second week in  row they have polled poorly (if you count Hyde Newton last week as poor)


----------



## durruti02 (Feb 13, 2009)

i attended a meeting with Nick Lowles and various Searchlight apparatchiks this week. They have brought over some w/c obama union organisers who told us how they got the votes out for obama .. very interesting but to what affect ( diff thread) .. BUT the whole purpose was to launch their June 08 euro campaign the thrust of which is to increase the overall vote to make it harder for the BNP to get candidates elected which they seem to be on course to do. 

I challenged Lowles on the recent Hyde vote, for which the anti bnp campaign is essentially the same tactic, and he claimed this as a victory .. yet look at the vote .. a 5% increase to 29% of the overall vote .. and an almost 60% increase on their 2003 vote yet only 4% increase on the split .. clearly the stategy has been to increase the non bnp turnout 

one of the ideas the americans have given Lowles is that it is not worth arguing with those who will not listen but better to concentrate on the middle ground 

i was not the only person at the meeting who sayed that we need to and CAN actually stop the BNP vote .. that the BNP vote is STILL soft and we must relate to those voters before the turn fascist


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 13, 2009)

Don't know if you saw this thread d :

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=278084


----------



## durruti02 (Feb 13, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> Don't know if you saw this thread d :
> 
> http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=278084


nope! and ta!


----------



## lewislewis (Feb 14, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> *Waddon (Croydon) *
> 
> Con 1462 (46.0%)
> Lab 1222 (38.5%)
> ...



Who's PC? Does it mean 'Politically Correct', or perhaps Plaid Cymru have turned expansionist and started fighting elections in Croydon?


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 14, 2009)

People's Choiice - beyond that i know nothing.


----------



## icekool (Feb 16, 2009)

dennisr said:


> _"Rape is simply sex. Women enjoy sex, so rape cannot be such a terrible ordeal....To suggest that rape, when conducted without violence, is a serious crime is like suggesting that force-feeding a woman chocolate cake is a heinous offence. A woman would be more inconvenienced by having her handbag snatched."_


well I say well said to that man as females these days are on the whole (not all but most) a bunch of skanky hoes only interested in becoming WAGS or similar

As for the BNP, well I hope they get in because lets face facts we badly need to repatriate the primates don't we
Have a look at these primates and tell me how *enriched* we are

_link removed_


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 16, 2009)

Bye


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## Crispy (Feb 16, 2009)

fuck off racist


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## butchersapron (Feb 20, 2009)

*Downham *
Jenni Clutten 1075
Duwayne Brooks (as lib dem) 1067
Labour 655
Conservative 654
Labour 635
Conservative 632
BNP 287 (10%)
Green 63
Green 62

*Bilton  *
Bentley CON 673 37.4%
Steve Gill BNP 164 9.1%
Gray Labour 51 2.8%
McKenzie LibDems 902 50.2%

*Swanley*
BNP 408 
Labour 332 
Tory 247


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## durruti02 (Feb 20, 2009)

not surprised at Swanley tbh .. SE london/kent etc .. the NF did well in the LA elections in SE london .. if Griffin can take them out they will do VERY well down here 

where are the other two?


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Feb 20, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> i attended a meeting with Nick Lowles and various Searchlight apparatchiks this week. They have brought over some w/c obama union organisers who told us how they got the votes out for obama .. very interesting but to what affect ( diff thread) .. BUT the whole purpose was to launch their June 08 euro campaign the thrust of which is to increase the overall vote to make it harder for the BNP to get candidates elected which they seem to be on course to do.
> 
> I challenged Lowles on the recent Hyde vote, for which the anti bnp campaign is essentially the same tactic, and he claimed this as a victory .. yet look at the vote .. a 5% increase to 29% of the overall vote .. and an almost 60% increase on their 2003 vote yet only 4% increase on the split .. clearly the stategy has been to increase the non bnp turnout
> 
> ...


i went to a lecture with thomas gensemer this week who did the e-campaign for obama, as well as some walmart stuff. and who is now linking up with searchlight apparently on bnp stuff. he's got a background in direct mail whereby it seems the marketing is more important than the message. Where the local activism is used to push the national product but pays no regard to what that localism says, explicitly.


----------



## agricola (Feb 20, 2009)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> i went to a lecture with thomas gensemer this week who did the e-campaign for obama, as well as some walmart stuff. and who is now linking up with searchlight apparently on bnp stuff. he's got a background in direct mail whereby it seems the marketing is more important than the message. Where the local activism is used to push the national product but pays no regard to what that localism says, explicitly.



That will be a BNP MP in a couple of years, then.


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## durruti02 (Feb 20, 2009)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> i went to a lecture with thomas gensemer this week who did the e-campaign for obama, as well as some walmart stuff. and who is now linking up with searchlight apparently on bnp stuff. he's got a background in direct mail whereby it seems the marketing is more important than the message. Where the local activism is used to push the national product but pays no regard to what that localism says, explicitly.


he he yeah .. sounds similar mate .. using a tactic/form for a particular end .. so in the other case community organising, but not to empower but narrowly as a pre electoral strategy that will simply shore up labour.. tbh it is dishonest but hey we are talking searchlight so ..


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## durruti02 (Feb 20, 2009)

agricola said:


> That will be a BNP MP in a couple of years, then.


 lol how true


----------



## durruti02 (Feb 20, 2009)

from bnp ..

"In Sevenoaks in Kent, BNP candidate Paul Golding, won the formerly safe Labour seat of Swanley St Mary’s with a 41.8% vote share. The Labour and Conservative candidates were trounced in a ward that the BNP had never contested before.

In North West Leicestershire, BNP candidate Roy Harban, gained a 28.1% vote share in Thringstone pushing the Liberal Democrat candidate into 4th place in another ward that the BNP had never fought before.

In Lewisham, BNP candidate Tess Culnane, polled 10.6% of the vote in Downham ward where the BNP haven’t stood a candidate for seven years.

In Harrogate, BNP candidate Steven Gill, polled 9.1% - a 50% increase on the vote share gained by the BNP candidate back May 2007 and three times as many votes cast for the Labour candidate.

Our election campaigning from now until the European Elections on June 4th is all about increasing the British National Party’s share of the vote . . . and last night this was achieved in a quite spectacular fashion.

SEVENOAKS COUNCIL
 Swanley St Mary’s Ward
 Paul GOLDING (BNP) 408
 Mike HOGG (Lab) 332 
Tony Searles (Con) 247
 BNP Percentage: 41.8%
May 2007: LAB 462/420, CON 208/197, UKIP 165.

NORTH WEST LEICS COUNCIL 
Thringstone Ward 
Ray WOODWARD (Lab) 593 
Tony DANDY (Con) 520 
Roy HARBAN (BNP) 465 
Terence MORRELL (Lib-Dem) 76 
BNP Percentage: 28.1%
May 2007: LAB 634/564, CON 501/376, LD 355/331.

LEWISHAM COUNCIL
 Downham Ward 
Jenni CLUTTEN (Lib-Dem) 1075
 Duwayne BROOKS (Lib-Dem) 1067
 Damien EGAN (Lab) 655
 Christine ALLISON (Con) 654 
Pauline Morrison (Lab) 635
 Andrew LEE (Con) 632
 Tess CULNANE (BNP) 287 
Cath MILLER (Green) 63
 Lee ROACH (Green) 62
 BNP Party Percentage: 10.6% 
May 2006 result LD 2230/1117/1106 LAB 590/586/554 CON 403/330/326 GRN 153/149/137.

HARROGATE COUNCIL 
Bilton Ward 
Clare McKENZIE (Lib-Dem) 902
Sharon BENTLEY (Con) 673 
Steven GILL (BNP) 164
 Andrew GRAY (Lab) 51 
 BNP Percentage: 9.2% 
May 2007: LD 974, CON 877, BNP 122.


----------



## JimPage (Feb 21, 2009)

With the focus rightly on Swanley result, its easy to miss the NW Lecicestershire one - at 28.1% enough to win some split wards

Standing in council by elections in  Broxtowe, Carlisle, Newcastle Under Lyne, Atherstone, St Helens and Salford. They may fight one in Inverness. By election upcoming in a Leeds ward they polled 22% in May 2008


----------



## Reese (Feb 21, 2009)

Lets not get carried away, the other month the BNP polled 6%...yes 6% in a bye-election in Haywards Heath. They were thrashed by the Lab/Con/Lib Dems!!!!!


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 23, 2009)

You _are_ getting carried away by isolating that result and ignoring any wider dynamic or trend.


----------



## Gavin Bl (Feb 24, 2009)

Reese said:


> Lets not get carried away, the other month the BNP polled 6%...yes 6% in a bye-election in Haywards Heath. They were thrashed by the Lab/Con/Lib Dems!!!!!



I live there, and was delighted to see them get a poor showing - but IIRC there were about 4 elections around that time that the BNP contested, and the HH result was the only low result, the others were up in the twenties. i.e. it was the exception rather than the rule.


----------



## JimPage (Feb 25, 2009)

Gavin Bl said:


> I live there, and was delighted to see them get a poor showing - but IIRC there were about 4 elections around that time that the BNP contested, and the HH result was the only low result, the others were up in the twenties. i.e. it was the exception rather than the rule.



Haywards Heath was poor for them, as was Waddon, but as you say, look at the results as a whole since Boston, and slightly before then as well. Its arguabely the best run of by election results they have ever had, and we are only just dipping into recession


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## audiotech (Feb 25, 2009)

> Every white should have a big family because the Asians are outbreeding us. In 50 years we’ll be in the minority because our women want to have a career and all that bollocks.



Paul Golding​​, the BNP’s new councillor in Swanley, Kent, speaking to an undercover Daily Mirror reporter in 2001.

May have problems getting the female vote out next time. 
​


----------



## durruti02 (Feb 25, 2009)

MC5 said:


> May have problems getting the female vote out next time.


 sadly, fascism, historically, doesn't generally have a problem getting out the female vote .. will be interesting to see how that pans out for the bnp over the next few years


----------



## audiotech (Feb 26, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> sadly, fascism, historically, doesn't generally have a problem getting out the female vote .. will be interesting to see how that pans out for the bnp over the next few years


 
It's clear that not all women are fascists, but without their votes, few fascists would ever be elected.

I came accross this:



> A quarter of Mosley's British Union of Fascists (BUF) were female and some of those were former suffragettes. Interviews with women members of the pre-war BUF reveal that many joined because they found Mosley - dubbed "the Rudolph Valentino of Fascism" - charismatic, masculine and attractive. Typical was Gladys Walsh, women's district leader of the BUF's Limehouse branch in the mid-1930s. She said Mosley "was one of the great leaders of our time, I think. Above all things, he was a man."


 


source

An article here on women and fascism.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 27, 2009)

13% down from 15%-17% in 'troubled' broxtowe last night - turnour similiar to previous election. Tory vote circa same as last time and Labour did better than expected, vote much held up - BNP thought they'd done enough to eat into their vote but didn't.


----------



## JimPage (Feb 28, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> 13% down from 15%-17% in 'troubled' broxtowe last night - turnour similiar to previous election. Tory vote circa same as last time and Labour did better than expected, vote much held up - BNP thought they'd done enough to eat into their vote but didn't.



I think this was due to a relatively poor campaign by local BNP group which was leafletting only. The one to watch in North Warwickshire Atherstone next week 

Following from independant as to the 2 Carlisle by elections next week

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/is-the-bnp-becoming-cumbrias-cup-of-tea-1634246.html

First few BNP lead Euro Candidates confirmed -no real surprises here-  
NW England  Nick Griffin
West Midlands- Simon Darby
Scotland - Debbie McKnight
SE England- Tim Rait


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## durruti02 (Feb 28, 2009)

JimPage said:


> I think this was due to a relatively poor campaign by local BNP group which was leafletting only. The one to watch in North Warwickshire Atherstone next week


 wingfield 
"For members and supporters of the British National Party, the result provides a much-needed reality check - nothing comes easily in nationalist politics.

After our wins in Boston and Swanley, near misses in Durham, Whitehaven, Ibstock and Bexley, and the substantial votes polled in Newcastle and Manchester, people might be starting to think that excellent BNP election results can achieved by just filling in a nomination form. That is certainly not the case.

In each of these contests, every voter was canvassed, every door was knocked upon, thousands of voters were spoken to on their doorstep, and then on polling day there was a meticulous plan of action put into place to make sure our support actually went and voted.

Of course it’s not always possible to conduct such intense campaigns, and with a Party like the BNP, which gets attacks from so many quarters, when we can’t pull out all the stops in a by-election then this will be reflected in our vote.

In Broxtowe out team fought a very good campaign with the resources available and organiser Nina Brown reports over 30 enquiries for membership, which if actually turned into new recruits will boost the numbers in the local campaign team for the next election there whenever it is.

The night was another disaster for UKIP with their candidate receiving a derisory 31 votes, just 1.4%.

Four more by-elections next Thursday with two in Carlisle, one in Newcastle-under-Lyme and one in Atherstone. Just like last night, it’s again all about BNP vote share and our activists in these areas will be out at the weekend trying to build our support so that we can reach those targets."


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 4, 2009)

Coup[le of interesting things from the January advisory council minutes:



> Membership Department reported the following breakdown of the percentages of membership categories:
> 
> Gold memberships 13.02%
> Family memberships 16.15%
> ...






> All local BNP blogs must change their names and operate instead as a local community website. Use of the BNP logo must be discontinued. It is impossible to control and oversee local websites centrally for legality of content and this measure protects the Party from any potentially costly legal challenges. Action: National Organiser





> 9. Operation ‘Fightback’
> Actions taken must be subtle but need to deal effectively with the hostility directed at the Party and several examples of previously successful action were cited. The e.bulletins currently being circulated which identify these individuals and organisations will be monitored and supervised.
> Action: Eddy Butler





> 11. Excalibur
> The Excalibur merchandising operation will now be run privately by Arthur Kemp under an annually renewable licence from the Party. This is a saving to the Party in terms of storage costs and postage. Arthur will continue to work on the website, write the Party’s Education and Training manuals and will be overseeing Radio RWB.


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## JimPage (Mar 5, 2009)

BNP Lead Candiates for June

Scot   Gary Raikes
NW     Nick Griffin
NE      Adam Walker
Yorks  Andrew Brons
EM      Robert West
WM     Simon Darby
Wales  Ennys Hughes
East    Eddy Butler
SE      Tim Rait
SW     Jeremy Wotherspoon

So that's Griffin and Andrew Brons as most likely to get in


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## audiotech (Mar 5, 2009)

JimPage said:


> BNP Lead Candiates for June
> 
> Scot Gary Raikes
> NW Nick Griffin
> ...


 
Andrew Bron's?  Formerly of the National Front. Probably the only college lecturer in the NF at the time (none now of course). He was regularly picketed when he taught in Harrogate, North Yorkshire. The band, 'No Swastikas', or 'The Redskins', as they became to be known, were instrumental in capturing an NF flag at one of these pickets and setting it alight.


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## butchersapron (Mar 6, 2009)

*Atherstone Central Ward by-election(North warwickshire)*

Labour 320
Tory 221
BNP 186 (22%)
IND 136

_First time out._

*Ravenscliffe Ward by-election (Newcastle-under-lyme)*

Con 229
Lab 213
BNP 180 (20%)
LDem 149
UKIP 131

_First time out._

*Castle ward by-election(Carlisle)*

Lib Dem 465
Lab 304
BNP 255(19.7%)
Con 143
Green 125

_First time out._

Belah ward by-election(Carlisle)

Con 700
Lab 307
Ind 221
BNP 142 (9.4%  - up about 5% i think)
LD 79
Grn 61

Anyone spot a pattern?


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## frogwoman (Mar 6, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> Coup[le of interesting things from the January advisory council minutes:



Interesting stuff butchers. Where can I get hold of a copy?


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## butchersapron (Mar 6, 2009)

http***** //bnp.org.uk/resources/ac-meetings/january-2009/


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## frogwoman (Mar 6, 2009)

cheers dude
interesting stuff about the "community websites" and the increased numbers of senior citizens - why do you think that is? oh, and looks like they're taking a bit of a leaf out of the SWPs book in regard to the front groups - or is that the other way round?


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## Prince Rhyus (Mar 6, 2009)

I'd be worried about http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/staffordshire/7927887.stm - with both the two mainstream parties having had councillors arrested, and the BNP with nine councillors on the council plus the economic downturn =


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## audiotech (Mar 6, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> Anyone spot a pattern?


 
I can clearly see a recent period of good results for the BNP, that will rally their troops in the run up to the Euro's.

However, the leadership still have a lot to play for. I think the Labour vote held up well in at least one seat and an independent could well have played a part in another?

Any indication of anti-BNP voters coming out?

Any idea of the turn-outs?


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## butchersapron (Mar 6, 2009)

I was referring to a run of 20% plus returns _in areas where they had previously never stood._


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## audiotech (Mar 6, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> I was referring to a run of 20% plus returns _in areas where they had previously never stood._


 
I have been aware of that trend for some time now.


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## durruti02 (Mar 6, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> *Atherstone Central Ward by-election(North warwickshire)*
> 
> Labour 320
> Tory 221
> ...



er that 10% became 20%? 

would they not have hoped for more in the Mids?


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## JimPage (Mar 7, 2009)

MC5 said:


> Andrew Bron's?  Formerly of the National Front. Probably the only college lecturer in the NF at the time (none now of course). He was regularly picketed when he taught in Harrogate, North Yorkshire. The band, 'No Swastikas', or 'The Redskins', as they became to be known, were instrumental in capturing an NF flag at one of these pickets and setting it alight.



Yes, the very same Andrew Brons. And although official lists to be clarified 
yet, no place on the list for Mark Collett in yorkshire

An astute move by Griffin, and Brons is well likes in the BNP- and will probably be able to hold his own in Brussels if elected


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## JimPage (Mar 7, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> er that 10% became 20%?
> 
> would they not have hoped for more in the Mids?



First time they fought any seat in the two boroughs concerned, so do not  think 20% is a bad first effort for them


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## durruti02 (Mar 8, 2009)

JimPage said:


> First time they fought any seat in the two boroughs concerned, so do not  think 20% is a bad first effort for them


 ok


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## Prince Rhyus (Mar 9, 2009)

Stoke has me worried...


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## butchersapron (Mar 9, 2009)

Wow ,THANKS.


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## Zachor (Mar 10, 2009)

Prince Rhyus said:


> Stoke has me worried...



Me too.  The idea of a major conurbation being run by fash is something that hasn't yet been seen and it is concerning.  Sadly the oppositon to the BNP just isn't effective and in some cases by not attacking equally the crimes of other sorts of fash as well as the BNP alienates those who are being targetted by BNP for votes.  

In areas like Dagenham when I lived there the Anti fash groups, because they were so tainted by their association with extreme left groupuscules, were not seen as being on the side of the locals and it made the BNP's job of getting their vote out easier.  If appropriate campaigning had been done then the BNP wouldn't have done half as well.  Another self foot shooting 'success' from the Left Anti Racists.


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## butchersapron (Mar 10, 2009)

Got the mainstream parties worried too - ditched the elected mayor for fear of a BNP victory, rejected all-out start all over again elections as well. Not that it matters as they keep getting arrested for corruption and dropping PR bonuses in the BNP's laps and the govt is likely to step in pretty soon.


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## derf (Mar 10, 2009)

Prince Rhyus said:


> Stoke has me worried...



The whole bloody lot of them have me worried. I may not be in the UK any more and no plans to return but I don't want to see the country fucked up by that bunch.
They use any subject they can to get attention regardless of any genuine interest in it.
They have used the miners strike to fain an interest in local politics and even subjects like wife beating to 'paki' bash.

Dangerous bunch of cretins that really need exposing for the bunch of bastards that they are.


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## audiotech (Mar 10, 2009)

Apparently from a 'reliable source' and reported on Socialist Unity that armed police have surrounded the house of a leading BNP member in Corsham, Wiltshire, and have dug up his garden and recovered small arms and cross bows.

If true, another BNP loon banged up.


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## durruti02 (Mar 10, 2009)

bnp meeting stopped in south west 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/7933776.stm


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## JimPage (Mar 11, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> bnp meeting stopped in south west
> 
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/7933776.stm




Meeting actually went ahead - in, oddly enough, Corsham

Nowt in any of the papers or media today about the Corsham arresst- suggest SU go speak to their very good freinds at searchlight, who will in tune speak to their very good freinds in the police to confirm


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## JimPage (Mar 11, 2009)

Back to elections, they are standing candidates in by elections over next few weeks in St Helens, Melton Mowbray, Redcar, St Helens, Manchester, Salford, Grimsby, and Calderdale


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## FrankMcGill (Mar 11, 2009)

derf said:


> The whole bloody lot of them have me worried. I may not be in the UK any more and no plans to return but I don't want to see the country fucked up by that bunch.
> They use any subject they can to get attention regardless of any genuine interest in it.
> They have used the miners strike to fain an interest in local politics and even subjects like wife beating to 'paki' bash.
> 
> Dangerous bunch of cretins that really need exposing for the bunch of bastards that they are.



Country is already fucked up. Is that why you fucked off?


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## _float_ (Mar 11, 2009)

FrankMcGill said:


> Country is already fucked up. Is that why you fucked off?


What are you worried about? To many immigrants? The smoking ban? What exactly?


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## durruti02 (Mar 12, 2009)

^^^ no derailing please


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## butchersapron (Mar 13, 2009)

*St Helens - Parr*

Councillor Andy Bowden (Labour)-  851
Mark Arnold (Independent) 98
Barry Dodd (Liberal Democrat) 511
Andrea Pennington (Green) 27
Paul Telford (BNP)183
Madeleine Wilcock (Conservative) 55
Turn out was 20.14%

*St Helens - Rainhill*

Barrie Grunewald (Labour- )1562
Denise Aspinall (Liberal Democrat) 1059
Stephen Bligh (Conservative) 512 
David Rothwell (Green) 80
Eric Swindells (BNP) 215
Turn out was  38.15%

*St Helens - Rainhill Parish West*
Barrie Grunewald (Labour) 405 votes
Denise Aspinall (Liberal Democrat) 219
Stephen Bligh (Conservative) 52
Eric Swindells (BNP) 54.  Turn out was 36.37%.


----------



## durruti02 (Mar 13, 2009)

poor results .. but there was nothing on the BNP website before or after tbh .. new area for them?


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## butchersapron (Mar 13, 2009)

They'd stood in Rainhill before - 299 votes last time, so slightly down - but everyone seemed to be down by similar proportion.

Those results might show that they're not going to pick up the 20%+ that they getting in 'white flight' areas C1 areas _straight off the bat_. Areas like this ill have longer local political tradtions and labour still has more roots in the community, more so than areas with lots of newcomers and so on anyway - the old structures and networks will take longer to displace in areas like this. 10-16% in a couple wards in one town sets them up nicely to build towards that 20%+ in coming years though.


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 13, 2009)

54's quite crap really


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 13, 2009)

It is crap but that's a meaningless parish seat that they only ran in so they'd look as if they're part of the local political mainstream - base building. It's the other two votes that are the important ones.


----------



## methane man (Mar 13, 2009)

Why can't people realise that it's the VOTING PUBLIC who have got the BNP where it is today!
There are so many pissed off 'floating' voters out there now, being as the lib/lab/con trio are all singing from the same hymn sheet, the only option they see open to them is the BNP.
Like them or loathe them, the BNP are here to stay, and are getting ever increasing votes all over the place.
Why the other parties CAN'T sway these voters away from the BNP, god knows.
Possibly because the BNP's ideals actually match with so many 'normal' peoples, that this is the only option left??

You can't blame the BNP for taking advantage of the situation, you can ONLY blame the current government for pissing so many people off, so much, that they've 'turned' to the protest vote.

And if that's what it takes to get the "one eyed scottish idiot" out, then, so be it!!!


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 13, 2009)

methane man said:


> the BNP's ideals actually match with so many 'normal' peoples


Ideals such as what, for instance?


----------



## durruti02 (Mar 13, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> They'd stood in Rainhill before - 299 votes last time, so slightly down - but everyone seemed to be down by similar proportion.
> 
> Those results might show that they're not going to pick up the 20%+ that they getting in 'white flight' areas C1 areas _straight off the bat_. Areas like this ill have longer local political tradtions and labour still has more roots in the community, more so than areas with lots of newcomers and so on anyway - the old structures and networks will take longer to displace in areas like this. 10-16% in a couple wards in one town sets them up nicely to build towards that 20%+ in coming years though.


ok how then do we explain the big votes in what appear to be solid ex labour seats in the east and central midlands ?


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 13, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> ok how then do we explain the big votes in what appear to be solid ex labour seats in the east and central midlands ?



Well, there are a number of possible factors - these places have been left behind far more than places like St Helens has - compare the poverty/inequality/unemployment/benefits levels etc with Stoke (which is pretty much in the bottom three across the board). Far longer standing and better local activists and networks and consequently more BNP resources applied (and better targetted) - it took time to wear down those labour networks in those places, it'll take time in St Helens and other new target areas.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 20, 2009)

Pendlebury Ward - Salford

Lab 1055 38.2%
Con 874 31.6%
BNP 373 13.5%
LD 368 13.3%
Ind 49 1.8%
Grn 43 1.6%

13.3-13.6% here in previous elections.


----------



## JimPage (Mar 20, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> Pendlebury Ward - Salford
> 
> Lab 1055 38.2%
> Con 874 31.6%
> ...




Just a little bit up, leadfrogging the Lib Dems in this ward. Green vote unspeabale, again

Potentially interesting by election next week in Melton Mowbray, a town they have dome fairly well in, albeit in a rural, tory stronghold ward


----------



## durruti02 (Mar 20, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> Pendlebury Ward - Salford
> 
> Lab 1055 38.2%
> Con 874 31.6%
> ...



Pendlebury Ward 2008 

Candidate Party Votes cast 
* WARNER Barry Labour                      975
 ALLCOCK Peter Gregory Conservative   826 
CORRY Christine Liberal Democrat        375 
TAYLOR Wayne British National            352 
CREMINS Stuart Anthony Independent 117 

Electorate 8967 Majority 149 
Void votes 8 Turnout 29.6%   


isnlt that the same pattern suggestting a big uaf campaign .. an increase in a vote for the govt at a by election is strange


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 20, 2009)

Possibly, but i'm not convinced (and i don;pt know what, if nayhting UAF did up there) Local By elections are often weird - there's been all sorts over the last year, labour surges, total labour collapses, labour firm votes, tory surges etc. That's just part of the game i think. A Parliamentary by election would tell us more.


----------



## JimPage (Mar 21, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> Possibly, but i'm not convinced (and i don;pt know what, if nayhting UAF did up there) Local By elections are often weird - there's been all sorts over the last year, labour surges, total labour collapses, labour firm votes, tory surges etc. That's just part of the game i think. A Parliamentary by election would tell us more.



No parliamentary by elections- but few council by elections in next few weeks in Melton Mowbray, Redcar, Leeds, Manchester, Chichester, Redbridge, Grimsby and Calderdale - a good geographic spread there

There wont be that many more, anything else in next few months is likely to be held on same day as Euro election, 4th June


----------



## Meltingpot (Mar 22, 2009)

What do people make of the BNP hijacking Winston Churchill and the Battle of Britain for their political ends? Nicholas Soames (Churchill's grandson) has written an angry condemnatioin of this recently.


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 22, 2009)

Meltingpot said:


> What do people make of the BNP hijacking Winston Churchill and the Battle of Britain for their political ends? Nicholas Soames (Churchill's grandson) has written an angry condemnatioin of this recently.



as much as i hate fash it's nothing that other politicians/political parties havent done - witness tony blair trying to be all "statesmenlike" for e.g. and performance over the iraq war

witness as well gordon brown's latest insult to WWII veterans - nothing the fash are doing that isn't being done by the other political parties 

its the least of their crimes imo


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 22, 2009)

focus on the issues not character assassination imo - mainstream parties have absolutely no credibility when it comes to tackling the far right on any issue whatsoever ...


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## Meltingpot (Mar 26, 2009)

Agreed Froggy.


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## frogwoman (Mar 26, 2009)

which is why socialism will win


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## greenman (Mar 26, 2009)

The fash held a fund raising event at a pub in the centre of Sutton-in-Ashfield, Notts, last night.
Indymedia Notts Report.
They have so far been unsuccessful electorally in the West Notts area due largely to the strength of the Independents on local councils and their own relative disorganisation in the area.  This could signal more of a push around the Euros.


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## butchersapron (Mar 26, 2009)

greenman said:


> The fash held a fund raising event at a pub in the centre of Sutton-in-Ashfield, Notts, last night.
> Indymedia Notts Report.
> They have so far been unsuccessful electorally in the West Notts area due largely to the strength of the Independents on local councils and their own relative disorganisation in the area.  This could signal more of a push around the Euros.



Looks to me like they've started to deliberately work on areas with strong independent groupings following their success in riding on the back of the independents campaigns in Stoke and more specifically in boston late last year where they took a seat off the  Boston Bypass Independents.


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## articul8 (Mar 26, 2009)

makes sense for them- a) because if electing an independent hasn't made the political class wake up, then the "scandalising" effect of electing a BNP seems the last available option, and b) the presence of an independent can further split the vote meaning that with not much more than 20% they could get a candidate elected under FPTP.


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## Louis MacNeice (Mar 26, 2009)

articul8 said:


> makes sense for them- a) because if electing an independent hasn't made the political class wake up, then the "scandalising" effect of electing a BNP seems the last available option, and b) the presence of an independent can further split the vote meaning that with not much more than 20% they could get a candidate elected under FPTP.



It might also provide a useful precedent in terms of casting a vote outside the mainstream which has had a result.

Louis MacNeice


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## JimPage (Mar 26, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> Looks to me like they've started to deliberately work on areas with strong independent groupings following their success in riding on the back of the independents campaigns in Stoke and more specifically in boston late last year where they took a seat off the  Boston Bypass Independents.



Would agree, once people get out of a voting habit of voting for the main three parties, BNP can step in, especially when the Independants are incompetent, as in Boston and Stoke, and before that Burnley. And that even extends to targetting ex-NFer Phil Andrew`s ward in Isleworth in London as well- he stands as an Independant on Hounslow council

3 more bits of BNP related news.

They are fighting a by election in Aberdeenshire- a huge ward centred on Braemar

One of their stalls was attacked yesterday in that well known heartland of antifascism, Kendal in Cumbria. One antifascist arrested

http://www.thewestmorlandgazette.co.uk/news/4233280.BNP_clash_with_protestors_in_Kendal/

And after a Tory Councillor joined Labour, they now hold the balance of power on Thurrock council


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## butchersapron (Mar 27, 2009)

Yarborough 

Lib Dems 35.8% 
Conservatives 24.1% 
Labour 20.5% 
BNP 17.4% 
Generalist 2.3%

Melton (no idea where this is)

Con 463
IND 231
BNP 120 (13.1% )
Labour 100


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## frogwoman (Mar 27, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> Yarborough
> 
> Lib Dems 35.8%
> Conservatives 24.1%
> ...



3 percentage points behind labour in yarborough? says it all 

who are generalists btw? x


----------



## where to (Mar 27, 2009)

JimPage said:


> And after a Tory Councillor joined Labour, they now hold the balance of power on Thurrock council



and their Councillor seems to have supported the Tories in the vote to decide who took control of Council...


----------



## where to (Mar 27, 2009)

Melton Council, as in Melton Mowbray, East Mids i presume

council area is 98% white (wikipedia), 15kms from Leicester so there may be a few white flighters out there.


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## JimPage (Mar 27, 2009)

where to said:


> Melton Council, as in Melton Mowbray, East Mids i presume
> 
> council area is 98% white (wikipedia), 15kms from Leicester so there may be a few white flighters out there.



The ward itself is an affluent rural ward where it's normally just a Tory and Independant stand.

Looking at % votes, again looking good for them for June,  especially Grimsby where their candidate got an abysmal local press


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## JimPage (Apr 3, 2009)

Result from yesterday 

Temple Newsam ward (Leeds)

Con      1785
*BNP      1502*
Labour  1476
Lib Dem 1468
Green     137


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## butchersapron (Apr 3, 2009)

Looks like solid consolidation in Leeds, there's about 6 of theses massive wards where they're over 20% and so usually over around at least 1000 votes. Last ime out 1560	(22.7%)	and 3rd, this time c25% and 2nd.

Skircoat ward (Halifax)

Conservative 1,277 35.4%
Liberal Democrat 1,259 34.9%
Labour 274 7.6%
Independent 238 6.6%
BNP 235 6.5%
Independent 229 6.4%
Green 92 2.6%

One more to come in Dormanstown, Redcar.


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## JimPage (Apr 3, 2009)

couple more from yesterday

Arun Felpham West
Con       630  
LibDem   269  
*BNP       165   13.7%*
UKIP       89    
Lab        56      

Turnout was 30.2% 

Redcar Dormanstown

Lib Dem    809
Lab         667
*BNP     305  16.0% *
Con         125

Turnout 36.8%


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## JimPage (Apr 3, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> Looks like solid consolidation in Leeds, there's about 6 of theses massive wards where they're over 20% and so usually over around at least 1000 votes. Last ime out 1560	(22.7%)	.



Agreed, this was a large ward where Lab/Tory/Lib were all contenders,and fough solid campaigns. For them to consolidate their vote with % vote going up a bit is not a bad result for them, and as you say, another second place for them

Its a huge ward covering one of the 4 wards in the Leeds East parliamentary constituency


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## durruti02 (Apr 3, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> Skircoat ward (Halifax)
> 
> Conservative 1,277 35.4%
> Liberal Democrat 1,259 34.9%
> ...


 thats poor .. is this any relationship to the Kirkless expulsions? though it also looks like a very middle class ward ( didn't realise halifax did middle class!  )  ok no was a new ward for them .. and very tory by the look


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## durruti02 (Apr 3, 2009)

Leeds MBC
Temple Newsam Ward
Thursday 2nd April 2009
David SCHOFIELD (Conservatives) 1785
Tom REDMOND (BNP) 1502
Danny ADILYPOUR (Labour) 1476
Ian DOWLING (Lib Dems) 1468
Christopher FOREN (Greens) 137
BNP Percentage: 23.6%
May 2008: Con 2386, Lab 2083, BNP 1560, LibDem 521, Ind 487.

Calderdale MBC
Skircoat Ward
Thursday 2nd April 2009
John HARDY (Conservative)1277
Pauline NASH (Liberal Democrat) 1259
Anne COLLINS (Labour) 274
Paul BRANNIGAN (Independent) 238
Chris GODRIDGE (British National Party) 235
Phillip CROSSLEY (Independent) 229
Viv SMITH (Green Party) 92
BNP Percentage: 6.5%
May 2008: Con 2132, LibDem 1305, Lab 308, Green 202.

Arun DC
Felpham West
Thursday 2nd April 2009
Gill MADELEY (Conservative) 630
Martin LURY (Liberal Democrat) 269
Mike WITCHELL (BNP) 167
John PHILLIPS (UKIP) 89
Michelle WHITE (Labour) 56
BNP Percentage: 13.7%
May 2007% Con 810 / 726, Ind 585, UKIP 333, LibDem 330.

Redcar/Cleveland UA
Dormanstown Ward
Thursday 2nd April 2009
Ken LUCAS (Lib-Dem) 809
Marian FAIRLEY (Lab) 667
Lynn PAYNE (BNP) 305
Brian HUGHES-MUNDY (Con) 125
BNP Percentage: 16.0%
May 2007: Lab 858 / 805 / 758, LibDem 414 / 412 / 386, Con 374.


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## durruti02 (Apr 3, 2009)

'they' are happy .. feel they're on the way to getting MEPs


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## frogwoman (Apr 3, 2009)

Who are the "generalists"? independents/fash/lefties? 

anyone know?


----------



## panpete (Apr 3, 2009)

How come, this party is still in existance?


----------



## durruti02 (Apr 4, 2009)

sorry just noticed that was a very good night for the Lib DEms!


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## HarrisonSlade (Apr 4, 2009)

MC5 said:


> Respect beat the BNP in 11 out of 16 wards, and Ukip in 5 out of 7.


So, that's that then. The BNP are not a threat. Just a bunch of comedy Nazis in suits, with a slimey leader who has delusions of grandeur. And whose only point is for the other Partys to wheel out in elections to get people to take part in elections, when, in reality, they would realise what a pantomime the whole thing is and stay away.


----------



## treelover (Apr 4, 2009)

There are postings on my local forum by someone calling themselves 'peoples voice' who is arguing for the BNP with a very sophicated 'pro-working class orientation/argument: to write them off as MC5 in any way is bad politics, in truth she/he makes more cogent arguments, even if one doesn't agree with them than M5, UAF, etc, they are strides ahead and the votes show it.


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## butchersapron (Apr 5, 2009)

frogwoman said:


> Who are the "generalists"? independents/fash/lefties?
> 
> anyone know?



They're nothing



> Murderers, rapists and paedophiles walk our streets with immunity! They are convicted and released for good behaviour! Our prisons have become holiday homes! Parents worry constantly for the safety of their children. Our Government, instead of punishing them, rewards these disgusting criminals! Our government ignores your fears and your anger and does nothing to protect us!



sf locals reckon they're ex-tories.


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## frogwoman (Apr 5, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> They're nothing
> 
> 
> 
> sf locals reckon they're ex-tories.


----------



## gosub (Apr 5, 2009)

Blog covering the BNP deputy leaders speech to an international fascist rally


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## frogwoman (Apr 6, 2009)

not sure what i make of that blog tbh.


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## Meltingpot (Apr 8, 2009)

The article says "on the run from justice", clearly implying that Fiore (whom no one seriously doubts is a nasty piece of work) was involved in the Bologna bombings of 1980.

Was there ever proven be a link between Fiore and the Bologna bombings?

I've always assumed he was involved but the Wiki article about him seems less certain.


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## JimPage (Apr 9, 2009)

Meltingpot said:


> The article says "on the run from justice", clearly implying that Fiore (whom no one seriously doubts is a nasty piece of work) was involved in the Bologna bombings of 1980.
> 
> Was there ever ever proven be a link between Fiore and the Bologna bombings?
> 
> I've always assumed he was involved but the Wiki article about him seems less certain.



In a word, No. And Fiore, like it or not , is now an MEP,and this meeting was more about cementing links in the run up to the euro elections with a view to re-juvenating the ITS Euronationalist blok in the European Parliament

http://www.predict09.eu/default/en-us/state_analyses.aspx

Suevery published two days ago indicates that Euronationaslist parties from Austria, Belguim, Denmark, Holland, Sweden and Italy will probably get in as well as Eastern Europe, whisch i dont know too much about, as well as acknowledging  the BNP could win a seat.

A pathetic political response as usual from Searchlight, simply describing this as a Nazi Rally


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## butchersapron (Apr 10, 2009)

Another very good result in the NW:

Moston (Mancs)

Rita Anne Tavernor - Labour Party 1,353 38.7% 
Derek George Adams - BNP 815 23.3%
Timothy John Hartley - lib Dems 696 19.9% 
Phil Donohue - Tory 558 16.0 -13.9%
Karl Wardlaw Green 74 2.1 - 5.7%


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## liampreston (Apr 10, 2009)

Thanks Butchers, started a thread on that. From what I understand from people on the ground (http://is.gd/rKfK)  the BNP surprised a lot of people with the amount of canvassing and leafleting done, especially in the last days of the campaign. I cannot decide how much (if any) a contribution came from the arrests in the NW in the two days around polling day.


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## durruti02 (Apr 10, 2009)

Lowles doesn't mention .. yet 

http://www.hopenothate.org.uk/blog/


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## Zeppo (Apr 10, 2009)

This and other thread on BNP voting is good background. I guess for the BNP this is their best shot with rising unemployment and a recession. The left if they are standing need to focus on issues affecting working people; housing, unemployment, the recession what sort of a society we want - not the free market casino capitalism.

Just saying the BNP are nazis is not enough - yes we must expose them but we need to put up a better alternative.


----------



## Balbi (Apr 10, 2009)

Zeppo said:


> Just saying the BNP are nazis is not enough - yes we must expose them but we need to put up a better alternative.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Apr 10, 2009)

Zeppo said:


> Just saying the BNP are nazis is not enough - yes we must expose them but we need to put up a better alternative.


 I don't know anybody who doesn't agree with that.  The problem is mobilising the Man/womanpower to do the rest.


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## treelover (Apr 10, 2009)

> I don't know anybody who doesn't agree with that. The problem is mobilising the Man/womanpower to do the rest.





Well, the SWP for instance seem to have inordinate amount of energy for organising perpetual marches against 'the war' and meetings against anti-imperialism its a question of priorities, imo.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Apr 10, 2009)

treelover said:


> Well, the SWP for instance seem to have inordinate amount of energy for organising perpetual marches against 'the war' and meetings against anti-imperialism its a question of priorities, imo.


and? the previous poster spoke about providing an alternative, that isn't about JUST opposing fascism, it's about providing an alternative.
they, sw, are also probably the one of most activate groups in anti fascism, which is the heart of the problem I was referring to.


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## JimPage (Apr 11, 2009)

liampreston said:


> Thanks Butchers, started a thread on that. From what I understand from people on the ground (http://is.gd/rKfK)  the BNP surprised a lot of people with the amount of canvassing and leafleting done, especially in the last days of the campaign. I cannot decide how much (if any) a contribution came from the arrests in the NW in the two days around polling day.



My understanding is that they did a leaflet-only campaign , with a focus on postal voters- and relied mainly on their North Manchester activists- they arent putting any effort into any by election between a few weeks ago and June where they dont have a reasonable possibility of winning


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## JimPage (Apr 11, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> Lowles doesn't mention .. yet
> 
> http://www.hopenothate.org.uk/blog/



He is too busy boasting how Searchlight have got the BNP rattled and boasting how well Searchlight are organised in Manchester

Lancaster Unity also forgets to report this election.....


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## Meltingpot (Apr 11, 2009)

JimPage said:


> *In a word, No. *And Fiore, like it or not , is now an MEP,and this meeting was more about cementing links in the run up to the euro elections with a view to re-juvenating the ITS Euronationalist blok in the European Parliament
> 
> http://www.predict09.eu/default/en-us/state_analyses.aspx
> 
> ...



Fair do's.


----------



## Fedayn (Apr 12, 2009)

JimPage said:


> In a word, No. And Fiore, like it or not , is now an MEP,and this meeting was more about cementing links in the run up to the euro elections with a view to re-juvenating the ITS Euronationalist blok in the European Parliament
> 
> http://www.predict09.eu/default/en-us/state_analyses.aspx
> 
> ...



And even more idiocy from the News of the Screws.... This smacks totally of desperation now and this is really fucking desperate....

http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/news/258860/BNP-deputy-leader-Simon-Darby-is-given-a-NAZI-SALUTE-at-a-fascist-rally-in-Italy-British-National-Party.html

One slightly interesting note however is that it looks like the BNP have transferred their Italian links from Fini and the AN (not even to Storace and La Destra which would imho be 'more' logical given the BNP's trajectory) over to Fiore and the FN. FN are certainly no modernising rightist party and are openly and avowedly fascist.


----------



## durruti02 (Apr 12, 2009)

JimPage said:


> He is too busy boasting how Searchlight have got the BNP rattled and boasting how well Searchlight are organised in Manchester
> 
> Lancaster Unity also forgets to report this election.....


 yes they appear to be doing a massive amount of work re the Euros


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## butchersapron (Apr 12, 2009)

Really stupid international move that, old friendships die hard it seems. (the FN thing i mean).


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## durruti02 (Apr 21, 2009)

apparrently the BNP have barred local groups from doing blogs for the elections as the language could be off message!


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 21, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> apparrently the BNP have barred local groups from doing blogs for the elections as the language could be off message!



reckon it could have an effect?


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## Zachor (Apr 21, 2009)

frogwoman said:


> reckon it could have an effect?



Depends how bright the local groups are.  There are some groups who are allegedly ignoring the 'no extremist images' guidance from the bnp's election  manual and using the 'race and nation' slogan,

The problem is they are building from the ground up and now need to reach out a bit further for votes during the euros.  I think if the bnp can keep their goons and more creepy supporters out of the way they could pick up a whole load of votes from people with genuine grievances about NL but who don't see the Tories as just NL witha  different badge.

I hope I'm wrong but if Westminster doesn't get its house in order and start dealing with peoples grievances then we are goign to see some very ugly poltics both up to and after the next GE.

It doesn't help that the govt is seen to no platform nationalist fascists as many would say is a correct thing to do whilst cosying up to religious fascists in order to prevent violence.  This has not gone unnoticed and will be exploited by the nationalist fash in the coming years.  NL and the economy have given the nationalist fash a well manured plot to grow in,  I think that sensible government could outmanouver the nationalist fash with policies that addressed the concern of those floating voters who are crossing the Rubicon of voting for fash when other parties such as what was the Labour party should have stopped this from happening.

However I have yet to see a government do the sensible thing.


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## JimPage (Apr 25, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> apparrently the BNP have barred local groups from doing blogs for the elections as the language could be off message!



They did that last November, when all of the lcoal BNP blogs transmogrified themselves into Independant Community blogs


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## JimPage (Apr 25, 2009)

Just a few odds and sods about their County Council campaign as they are starting to annouce where they are standing. Full slates of candidates announced so far in Ashfield (Nottinghamshire CC) Charnwood, Melton and NW Leicestershire (Leicestershire CC), 8 in Copeland, 7 in Allerdale (Cumbria CC)


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## JimPage (Apr 28, 2009)

JimPage said:


> Just a few odds and sods about their County Council campaign as they are starting to annouce where they are standing. Full slates of candidates announced so far in Ashfield (Nottinghamshire CC) Charnwood, Melton and NW Leicestershire (Leicestershire CC), 8 in Copeland, 7 in Allerdale (Cumbria CC)



Their county council intentions are becoming more clear now-- nominations close next week I think 

Full slate HiNckley and Bosworth so that's already well over half of the 52 Leicestershire seats being fought  

A third of the 77 seats on Hertfordshire county council


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## JimPage (Apr 29, 2009)

JimPage said:


> Their county council intentions are becoming more clear now-- nominations close next week I think
> 
> Full slate HiNckley and Bosworth so that's already well over half of the 52 Leicestershire seats being fought
> 
> A third of the 77 seats on Hertfordshire county council



More coming in 

Full slate of 17 in Carlisle

Over 100 in East Midlands alone


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## durruti02 (Apr 29, 2009)

thinking of searchlight and all, the phrase [trying ] to close the gate after the horse has bolted seems kinda relevant


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## trevhagl (Apr 30, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> thinking of searchlight and all, the phrase [trying ] to close the gate after the horse has bolted seems kinda relevant



Their biggest problem is trying to convince people to vote Tory or Labour when these are the cunts who've caused everyone's problems in the first place.
I will probably vote if there's a nazi standing in my area, but not if the only choice was a Tory


----------



## durruti02 (Apr 30, 2009)

trevhagl said:


> Their biggest problem is trying to convince people to vote Tory or Labour when these are the cunts who've caused everyone's problems in the first place.
> I will probably vote if there's a nazi standing in my area, but not if the only choice was a Tory


fair play .. keep us informed of whats happenning in durham mate .. sounds if it could be a big area for bnp and hopefully something differrent!


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## Stoat Boy (Apr 30, 2009)

trevhagl said:


> Their biggest problem is trying to convince people to vote Tory or Labour when these are the cunts who've caused everyone's problems in the first place.
> I will probably vote if there's a nazi standing in my area, but not if the only choice was a Tory



So you would rather see the BNP gain a seat than vote Tory ?


----------



## butchersapron (May 1, 2009)

East Ecclesfield ward, Sheffield

LD -  2,239 
Lab - 1,420 
BNP -   716 
Con -   564 
Green- 107

2008 result:

British National Party - 677
Liberal Democrat - 2314
Conservative - 582
Green Party -181
Labour Party - 1622

Turnout: 38.42%


----------



## littlebabyjesus (May 1, 2009)

trevhagl said:


> Their biggest problem is trying to convince people to vote Tory or Labour when these are the cunts who've caused everyone's problems in the first place.
> I will probably vote if there's a nazi standing in my area, but not if the only choice was a Tory


Clothes peg on the nose time if you have to vote Tory to keep out the BNP. I certainly would, in the same way that I would have voted Chirac against Le Pen. 

I'd even vote UKIP to keep out the BNP. BNP are qualitatively different.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (May 1, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> East Ecclesfield ward, Sheffield
> 
> LD -  2,239
> Lab - 1,420
> ...



BNP the only party that didn't see it's vote drop. A distant third but surely this sort of contest is not about winning?

Louis MacNeice


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## butchersapron (May 1, 2009)

Yes - not a good sign when they can maintain their vote in these huge wards on what i expect is a reduced turnout. Suggests a solid core they can organise around in the medium term. 13% in a region they're expected to do will in in June as well (threshold expeceted to be around 11.5%). I was talking to a Green candidate last week and she was absolutely insistent that they (the Greens not BNP) were going to win a seat in Yorkshire and Humber - despite all evidence to the contrary - there seemed to be real denial over the BNPs potential to win a seat in the NW allied with unrealistic expectations of the Greens prospects up there.

edit: just checked the turnout - only slightly down - 36.01%


----------



## treelover (May 1, 2009)

One of the things is i have noticed is that on CIF and other discussion boads, those oppossed to the BNP are usually very abusive, agressive and resort to satire which gets very repetitive, the BNP posters (on thier terms and not all), often come across as reasonable with arguements that seem in tune with many ordinary punters(though we have the crackpots with their genetic thoeries, etc).In effect, they, the anti's seem to be fighting the battles of the 80's, etc, I susepct the next decade will see a resurgence of the F/R and the anti-s have to come up with more sophicated strategies 

btw, the Ecclesfield result, Sheffield has largely been a F/R free zone since the 80's , something happening here.


----------



## treelover (May 1, 2009)

> I was talking to a Green candidate last week and she was absolutely insistent that they (the Greens not BNP) were going to win a seat in Yorkshire and Humber - despite all evidence to the contrary - there seemed to be real denial over the BNPs potential to win a seat in the NW allied with unrealistic expectations of the Greens prospects up there.



Agreed


----------



## Zachor (May 1, 2009)

treelover said:


> One of the things is i have noticed is that on CIF and other discussion boads, those oppossed to the BNP are usually very abusive, agressive and resort to satire which gets very repetitive, the BNP posters (on thier terms and not all), often come across as reasonable with arguements that seem in tune with many ordinary punters(though we have the crackpots with their genetic thoeries, etc).In effect, they, the anti's seem to be fighting the battles of the 80's, etc, I susepct the next decade will see a resurgence of the F/R and the anti-s have to come up with more sophicated strategies
> 
> btw, the Ecclesfield result, Sheffield has largely been a F/R free zone since the 80's , something happening here.



Agree there.  One thing I noticed (to my great frustration) is how the bnp activists came over as concerned and interested in peoples problems and issues whereas the anti fash in the form of the trot dominated groups just came over as abusive wanky students.  Thats not to say all anti fash groups are made up of wanky trot students but it wold do the anti fash well to consider how their activities are coming across with potential bnp voters.


----------



## Rod Sleeves (May 1, 2009)

Zachor said:


> Agree there.  One thing I noticed (to my great frustration) is how the bnp activists came over as concerned and interested in peoples problems and issues whereas the anti fash in the form of the trot dominated groups just came over as abusive wanky students.  Thats not to say all anti fash groups are made up of wanky trot students but it wold do the anti fash well to consider how their activities are coming across with potential bnp voters.



This is the nub of it. Is serious anti-facism about looking like shouty fools and demanding a vote for the mainstream, or is about building a progressive, radical, working class alternative that actually listens to people's demands, and indeed facilitates the articulation of such demands.

There is a place in anti facism for gigs and parties that promote unity and anti racism, and there is a place for physical confrontation with the far right when required, but unless we're committed to building a real alternative they will be a waste of time and resources.


----------



## Zachor (May 1, 2009)

Rod Sleeves said:


> This is the nub of it. Is serious anti-facism about looking like shouty fools and demanding a vote for the mainstream, or is about building a progressive, radical, working class alternative that actually listens to people's demands, and indeed facilitates the articulation of such demands.



Yup I saw in one borough I lived in the anti fash telling people to vote for the same New Labour party that had fucked up the lives of the very people who were voting bnp in order to send a message to NL.  


Rod Sleeves said:


> There is a place in anti facism for gigs and parties that promote unity and anti racism, and there is a place for physical confrontation with the far right when required, but unless we're committed to building a real alternative they will be a waste of time and resources.



Agree there.  Although I'm not of the Left I share with others an abhorence of fash in all its forms.  

Wanky gig based anti fascism like the Rise festival only preaches to the converted and doesn't stop one vote going to the bnp.


----------



## Stoat Boy (May 1, 2009)

In their defence at least they are trying to combat the BNP but I would agree with the general perception that in some ways it seems to be more of a fashion statement for many on the left to proclaim thier hatred of the BNP which can seem to become almost a competition amongst them to see who can rant the most. 

But, and this is the main issue, there is not a genuine working class alternative. The left seem far to hung up on this notion of internationalism mixed with a nice dose of global warming hysteria to actually seem to listen to the real concerns of people who are voting BNP and quite frankly seem incapable of actually doing anything to help them.

If some poor bloke has lost his job due to cheap foreign labour then its all very well and good to make the case that its the capitalist system at fault rather than the poor Pole/Italian/what ever just trying to look after his family but that does not pay the mortgage.

I do think there is some value in making the idea of voting BNP a shameful one and if the BNP are exposed for what they really are i.e part of a far-larger pan-European national movement who would have been cheering on the Nazi's in World War 2 then you can persuade people not to vote for them. Its what I have done on a couple of occassions but that can only be done if you genuinely try and understand why people are considering the BNP in the first place and that seems to be an area that many on the left cannot even bring themselves to contemplate.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (May 1, 2009)

"This is the nub of it. Is serious anti-facism about looking like shouty fools and demanding a vote for the mainstream, or is about building a progressive, radical, working class alternative that actually listens to people's demands, and indeed facilitates the articulation of such demands."

At local level this does go on. Green Party, Respect, Independents etc. are all capable of fulfilling that role. Community Action Party in Wigan became the opposition with about 18 seats, though I think there's been a split now 

The Green Party in Kirklees has just secured a massive home insulation scheme, providing local employment, with just 3 councillors.

Of course it doesnt happen nearly enough, and where it doesnt happen it is only natural that the fascists put in an effort.

I still hope more socialist unity can arise at a national level which builds on this, but history shows us we shouldnt hold our breath.

There are 1000 independents in this country, obviously many will be conservative but imagine if one progressive party in this country had quite a few hundred (Greens have about 110 I think).

That level of success would indeed eclipse anything the far right could pretend to offer beyond their usual race/"culture" analysis.

On another matter entirely: The UKIP posters are going up in my area, to the hopeful detriment of the fash.


----------



## frogwoman (May 1, 2009)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> On another matter entirely: The UKIP posters are going up in my area, to the hopeful detriment of the fash.



Umm ...


----------



## littlebabyjesus (May 1, 2009)

Zachor said:


> Wanky gig based anti fascism like the Rise festival only preaches to the converted and doesn't stop one vote going to the bnp.


God you're a nob sometimes.

Yes it's really wanky to put on a gig and dedicate it to the fight against racism.

Fucking hell.


----------



## Zachor (May 1, 2009)

littlebabyjesus said:


> God you're a nob sometimes.
> 
> Yes it's really wanky to put on a gig and dedicate it to the fight against racism.
> 
> Fucking hell.



I'm afraid it is wanky. I've been to some events like this and the clientele is almost totally made of up either the hard left, fruitloop groups and those who are not racist in any way in the first place.  It doesn't stop one BNP vote.  Such events might have been effective back in the late 70;s but not now.


----------



## treelover (May 1, 2009)

> I do think there is some value in making the idea of voting BNP a shameful one and if the BNP are exposed for what they really are i.e part of a far-larger pan-European national movement who would have been cheering on the Nazi's in World War 2 then you can persuade people not to vote for them.




Maybe so, but i reckon there is now a substantial 'nationalist' vote in the UK, which was somewhat ameliorated during the boom years, they will go somewhere.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (May 1, 2009)

littlebabyjesus said:


> God you're a nob sometimes.
> 
> Yes it's really wanky to put on a gig and dedicate it to the fight against racism.
> 
> Fucking hell.




Fair point. Critiquing peoples efforts is one thing, but there is such a thing as throwing out the baby with the bathwater.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (May 1, 2009)

treelover said:


> Maybe so, but i reckon there is now a substantial 'nationalist' vote in the UK, which was somewhat ameliorated during the boom years, they will go somewhere.



I think that must be true, because the BNP support in opinion polls seems to be up more across the board than just in locales where they organise. It is a fairly strong brand, more so by now than when the NF were at their peak, though that is before my time.


----------



## JimPage (May 2, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> Yes - not a good sign when they can maintain their vote in these huge wards on what i expect is a reduced turnout. Suggests a solid core they can organise around in the medium term. 13% in a region they're expected to do will in in June as well (threshold expeceted to be around 11.5%). I was talking to a Green candidate last week and she was absolutely insistent that they (the Greens not BNP) were going to win a seat in Yorkshire and Humber - despite all evidence to the contrary - there seemed to be real denial over the BNPs potential to win a seat in the NW allied with unrealistic expectations of the Greens prospects up there.
> 
> edit: just checked the turnout - only slightly down - 36.01%



And this is in a LibDem ward- the sort of ward they have traditionally found hard to break. The turnout here is liekly to be similar to that of the Euros, and as you say, its a larger than average ward  as they are in sheffield

The worrying this is this. Its one thing winning say 20% in a ward in a smaller authority say Sevenoaks, Boston etc. Its harder in the larger city wards to poll say 15% ish, with much more local opposition and more dynamic mainstream parties ( say in Leeds, Manchester, Sheffield and Newcastle where they have done just that recently). In the euros, that is where the bulk of the voters live. So a 14% vote this near to the Euros is not a good sign


----------



## JimPage (May 2, 2009)

Stoat Boy said:


> .
> I do think there is some value in making the idea of voting BNP a shameful one and if the BNP are exposed for what they really are i.e part of a far-larger pan-European national movement who would have been cheering on the Nazi's in World War 2 then you can persuade people not to vote for them.



Agreed the Nazi aspect is still the biggest weapon Antifascists still have, but it isnt helped by the Bull put out by Searchlight in their euro leaflet which leads on "BNP to link with NPD in Europe" (NPD are the german facist party)

NPD arent even standing......


----------



## JimPage (May 2, 2009)

JimPage said:


> More coming in
> 
> Full slate of 17 in Carlisle
> 
> Over 100 in East Midlands alone



Few more
Now up to 11 in Copeland
4 in Harborough
3 in Barrow

Nominations close on Tuesday- from waht i can see expect enoughr county council nominations to earn the BNP a second Party Political Broadcast


----------



## Stoat Boy (May 2, 2009)

JimPage said:


> Agreed the Nazi aspect is still the biggest weapon Antifascists still have, but it isnt helped by the Bull put out by Searchlight in their euro leaflet which leads on "BNP to link with NPD in Europe" (NPD are the german facist party)
> 
> NPD arent even standing......



I still think its important to link the BNP with European fascist partys though because they are all part of the same agenda, at least with regards to their leadership and broader agenda. Its what I stress to people who show an inclination to vote BNP based on a British nationalist agenda because its obvious that once you start defining nationality based solely on racial identity then its only logical that this is expanded to become more pan-European than anything on offer from the current mainstream partys. 

I know some very knowledgable people on here have dismissed the notion of the '14 words' as just being something that a very fanactical minority on the right adhere too I still think its the very thing that underpins the Euro-right and that will, over the course of the next two decades, come to the fore front of it.


----------



## frogwoman (May 2, 2009)

Stoat Boy said:


> I still think its important to link the BNP with European fascist partys though because they are all part of the same agenda, at least with regards to their leadership and broader agenda. Its what I stress to people who show an inclination to vote BNP based on a British nationalist agenda because its obvious that once you start defining nationality based solely on racial identity then its only logical that this is expanded to become more pan-European than anything on offer from the current mainstream partys.
> 
> I know some very knowledgable people on here have dismissed the notion of the '14 words' as just being something that a very fanactical minority on the right adhere too I still think its the very thing that underpins the Euro-right and that will, over the course of the next two decades, come to the fore front of it.



interesting post.


----------



## trevhagl (May 2, 2009)

Zachor said:


> I'm afraid it is wanky. I've been to some events like this and the clientele is almost totally made of up either the hard left, fruitloop groups and those who are not racist in any way in the first place.  It doesn't stop one BNP vote.  Such events might have been effective back in the late 70;s but not now.



What's a Tory doing at an anti racist gig?


----------



## JimPage (May 6, 2009)

Based on their qualification for a second Party Political Broadcast this year, BNP will be fighting at least 386 County Council and local council seats in England I believe.  

Nominations close lunchtime tomorrow


----------



## durruti02 (May 6, 2009)

european slate announced .. all suit and tie .. and very middle class .. only a couple of w/c in there

htt p://bnp.    org.uk/   category   /european-elections/

though can't find election leaflets


----------



## JimPage (May 7, 2009)

Right a bit of good news to start with
http://www.predict09.eu/default/en-us/state_analyses.aspx

Predict 09 have the BNP vote already starting to collapse- down to 4.4% nationwide- from 4.9% in 2004

First 2 County Council numbers confirmation

Leicestershire 48
Cumbria 41


----------



## Zachor (May 7, 2009)

trevhagl said:


> What's a Tory doing at an anti racist gig?



You can be right wing but not racist.


----------



## dennisr (May 7, 2009)

Zachor said:


> You can be right wing but not racist.



zionist apologist?


----------



## Rod Sleeves (May 7, 2009)

JimPage said:


> Right a bit of good news to start with
> http://www.predict09.eu/default/en-us/state_analyses.aspx
> 
> Predict 09 have the BNP vote already starting to collapse- down to 4.4% nationwide- from 4.9% in 2004



Hmm, I don't know, they say that the BNP _*MAY*_ gain _*IF*_ the UKIP vote collapses, is there any suggestion that the UKIP vote _won't_ collapse? I mean they have them down as getting four seats down from 12(10). While I admit that many casual UKIP voters won't exactly be keeping up with all the feuding and splits, they have been near invisible in terms of actual campaigning this time, and obviously they don't have a high profile celeb candidate this time as far as I'm aware.


----------



## JimPage (May 7, 2009)

Rod Sleeves said:


> Hmm, I don't know, they say that the BNP _*MAY*_ gain _*IF*_ the UKIP vote collapses, is there any suggestion that the UKIP vote _won't_ collapse? I mean they have them down as getting four seats down from 12(10). While I admit that many casual UKIP voters won't exactly be keeping up with all the feuding and splits, they have been near invisible in terms of actual campaigning this time, and obviously they don't have a high profile celeb candidate this time as far as I'm aware.



The UKIP vote always increases for the Euros, and while I can't see them doing as well as in 2004, 10% for them is forseeable.


----------



## Zachor (May 7, 2009)

dennisr said:


> zionist apologist?



Zionism is not racism the only people who think like that are trots, ignoramuses and terrorist apologists.


----------



## JimPage (May 7, 2009)

JimPage said:


> Right a bit of good news to start with
> http://www.predict09.eu/default/en-us/state_analyses.aspx
> 
> Predict 09 have the BNP vote already starting to collapse- down to 4.4% nationwide- from 4.9% in 2004
> ...



BNP standing in both North Tyneside and Doncaster Mayoral Elections

117 in total in East of England- including full slate of 75 in Essex

115 in total in East Midlands


----------



## Zachor (May 7, 2009)

JimPage said:


> BNP standing in both North Tyneside and Doncaster Mayoral Elections
> 
> 117 in total in East of England- including full slate of 75 in Essex
> 
> 115 in total in East Midlands



<puts on Cassandra hat>

Can't see them doing well in Tyneside.  Doncaster they won't win the mayoralty but they will do respectably well mostly due to Labour being shit and negative publicity about child safety cases there.

Will probably do well in South Essex but not so well in other parts.  Areas that have had an influx of people escaping what they see as the Islamification of their former areas will prob vote fash as well.  Add in the normal white flight factor in the areas of essex bordering Havering and Dagenham and they will do quite well.


----------



## passthesalt (May 7, 2009)

Also understand that they could be fighting a ward in Havering (on same day as Euro elections) where the local Independent (former Tory) councillor has just been done for child pornography.

http://www.havering.gov.uk/index.aspx?articleid=15729

http://www.romfordrecorder.co.uk/co...wsromford&itemid=WeED14 Apr 2009 10:19:51:600


----------



## JimPage (May 8, 2009)

JimPage said:


> BNP standing in both North Tyneside and Doncaster Mayoral Elections
> 
> 117 in total in East of England- including full slate of 75 in Essex
> 
> 115 in total in East Midlands



Few more confirmations as to totals in counties- lots of partial lists in for Counties as well, will wait until full totals confirmed

3 Suffolk CC
12 North Yorkshire CC
5 Norfolk CC 
12 Northamptonshire CC
28 Hertfordshire CC

Total will be over 400 allegedlt  compared to 35 CC seats in 2005


----------



## JimPage (May 8, 2009)

passthesalt said:


> Also understand that they could be fighting a ward in Havering (on same day as Euro elections) where the local Independent (former Tory) councillor has just been done for child pornography.
> 
> http://www.havering.gov.uk/index.aspx?articleid=15729
> 
> http://www.romfordrecorder.co.uk/co...wsromford&itemid=WeED14 Apr 2009 10:19:51:600



Also council  by-elections in NW Leicestershire, Boston and Epping Forest being fought, and possibly Burnley, all in not bad wards for them


----------



## durruti02 (May 8, 2009)

JimPage said:


> Few more confirmations as to totals in counties- lots of partial lists in for Counties as well, will wait until full totals confirmed
> 
> 3 Suffolk CC
> 12 North Yorkshire CC
> ...


jim, any idea how that compares with NF in the 7ts?


----------



## treelover (May 8, 2009)

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2009/05/429436.html?c=on#c222645


Not good in Barnsley, locals barracking antifa at Griffin meeting, 300(claimed) at meeting, etc, to think an ex mining town going Brown


----------



## glenquagmire (May 8, 2009)

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=288396


----------



## durruti02 (May 8, 2009)

http://www.echo-news.co.uk/news/loc...BNP_stand_in_every_Essex_County_Council_ward/


----------



## JimPage (May 9, 2009)

Updated list of CC Nominations

Over 460 according to their website, up from 35 in 2005. Many councils still to to declare full lists- like Lancashire, West Sussex and Devon where I know they are standing

75 Essex
41 Cumbria
48 Leicestershire
3 Suffolk 
12 North Yorkshire 
5 Norfolk  
12 Northamptonshire 
28 Hertfordshire 
4 Cornwall 
23 Lincolnshire
17 Derbyshire 
16 Nottinghamshire 
4  Buckinghamshire


----------



## JimPage (May 9, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> jim, any idea how that compares with NF in the 7ts?



Exceeds their show in 1977. What must be remembered about this number is 2things, firstly the CC wards are very large, made up of 2 or 3 council wards, so they will moderate their areas fought accordingly 

Secondly these are in general terms, rural areas outside the metropiplitan area like Leeds, Sunderland, Thurrock, Sunderland, Kirklees or Brmingham where they usually fight loads of seats.


----------



## dennisr (May 9, 2009)

JimPage said:


> Updated list of CC Nominations
> 
> Over 460 according to their website, up from 35 in 2005. Many councils still to to declare full lists- like Lancashire, West Sussex and Devon where I know they are standing
> 
> ...



jack booted fascism is around the corner...


----------



## Prince Rhyus (May 9, 2009)

Hmm...nazis getting too close to home...

http://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/cn_news_home/DisplayArticle.asp?ID=410272


----------



## Jeff Robinson (May 9, 2009)

Another Hitlerite BNP piece of human sewage exposed as a former comrade of murdering South African racist scum: 



> A far-right activist linked to the murderer of the South African Communist party and ANC leader Chris Hani in 1993 is playing an influential role in the British National party in the run-up to next month's European election campaign.
> 
> Arthur Kemp runs the party's merchandising arm, Excalibur, and was pictured this week at the BNP's election headquarters in mid-Wales helping to prepare thousands of campaign leaflets.



http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/may/08/bnp-nick-griffin-arthur-kemp


----------



## JimPage (May 10, 2009)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Another Hitlerite BNP piece of human sewage exposed as a former comrade of murdering South African racist scum:
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/may/08/bnp-nick-griffin-arthur-kemp



The odd thing here is that Kemp was a witness for the prosecution and was not charged with anything. He is not flavour of the month for expat racist South Africans either in the UK, who regard him as a grass


----------



## butchersapron (May 12, 2009)

Griffin on R5 now. Campell pathetic - started off with the exact same question as Paxman about if he'd allow his daughter to marry a non-white, NG easily sidestepped it and was allowed to turn the tables on campbell and accuse him of being race obsesssed. NG made good ground on labour on the gurhkas. Campbell just fucked up totally by accusing NG of writing a book on denying the holocaust which a) allowed NG to point out his research was awful and b) to explicitly say that he's changed his mind from earlier views and c) that naxis are not welcome in the BNP. Campbell equally feeble on repatriation, allowed Griffin to point out the BNP policy is already actual home office policy and has been since 1972.


----------



## JimPage (May 12, 2009)

Although until about a week ago i was 95% sure they would not get elected in June, i cant help but think with the expenses row, that a lot of voters for mainstream parties are simply going to stay at home, whcih will benefit them in June

woudl probaly say one MEP now, in Yorkshire

no full list of CC canddiates available yet


----------



## treelover (May 12, 2009)

> Austerity Britain: Why the far right is finding converts in Barnsley
> 
> http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article6268999.ece





Interesting article in the Times, about Griffin's meeting in Barnsley, inc the raptorous support he got! Its clear the UAF approach isn't working, I would never support the BNP, but the lack of support we had for the welfare issues have put me off the left for a long time, so I am just abdicating, others are less tolerant and are moving to the far right.


----------



## dennisr (May 12, 2009)

JimPage said:


> Although until about a week ago i was 95% sure they would not get elected in June, i cant help but think with the expenses row, that a lot of voters for mainstream parties are simply going to stay at home, whcih will benefit them in June
> 
> woudl probaly say one MEP now, in Yorkshire
> 
> no full list of CC canddiates available yet



Yep, thats my view as well

As you said on the other thread - like France - a choice of voting for crooks or fascists


----------



## skyscraper101 (May 12, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> Griffin on R5 now. Campell pathetic - started off with the exact same question as Paxman...



When was Paxman interviewing him?


----------



## Rod Sleeves (May 12, 2009)

JimPage said:


> Although until about a week ago i was 95% sure they would not get elected in June, i cant help but think with the expenses row, that a lot of voters for mainstream parties are simply going to stay at home, whcih will benefit them in June
> 
> woudl probaly say one MEP now, in Yorkshire
> 
> no full list of CC canddiates available yet



Why Yorkshire? Why not the North West?


----------



## joevsimp (May 12, 2009)

another gem from griffin today:

Outlining his party's anti-immigration stance, Mr Griffin said: "Not all immigrants are terrorists but all terrorists are immigrants or their immediate descendants."

three words: David Copeland fucktard


----------



## butchersapron (May 12, 2009)

skyscraper101 said:


> When was Paxman interviewing him?



About 5 yeras ago, in a famous interview when the hero of the liberal middle classes was totally humiliated. They've learnt nothing since.


----------



## joevsimp (May 12, 2009)

JimPage said:


> Right a bit of good news to start with
> http://www.predict09.eu/default/en-us/state_analyses.aspx
> 
> Predict 09 have the BNP vote already starting to collapse- down to 4.4% nationwide- from 4.9% in 2004



but its also predicting the greens losing both seats the tories gaining none and labour gaining three so i'd be a little cautious


----------



## ericjarvis (May 12, 2009)

dennisr said:


> As you said on the other thread - like France - a choice of voting for crooks or fascists



Hardly. It's a choice between crooks and fascist crooks.


----------



## butchersapron (May 12, 2009)

forget predict 09.


----------



## Jean-Luc (May 12, 2009)

Before deciding a counter-strategy to the BNP we need to ask why it is progressing. I suggest that it is due to the inevitable failure of the main political parties to solve the social problems people have to face under capitalism (inevitable because under capitalism profits just have to come before people, and governments have to accept and implement this). 

If this is the case then lining up with the Establishment parties to try to ostracise and quarantine the BNP is not going to work. In fact it's more likely to have the opposite effect of feeding the growth of the BNP. The only effective way to stop the BNP would be to get rid of the Profit System which causes the problems people suffer from and which no party which accepts this system (and that includes the Greens and the Nationalists) can solve and whose failure to solve them is grist for the BNP's mill. 

If the growth of the BNP is fed by the failure of parties that seek to reform the Profit System (as well as, today, their blatant corruption), you're not going to stop it by supporting and voting for them, as we are being urged to do all round.


----------



## butchersapron (May 12, 2009)

Read the various threads fred. You're not bringing the tablets. Most of us know this.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (May 12, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> forget predict 09.



The latest Independent poll was quite rare in that if one dug around one could get the "others" breakdown. By that poll the BNP are on 3%.

I know we disagree on their prospects, I certainly respect any lack of complacency while obviously hoping my relative optimism is well placed.

I dont think they will reach 8.5 in the NW on this basis, especially without a good "get out to vote" operation.

Also, UKIP are holding up better than one might expect.


----------



## butchersapron (May 12, 2009)

On what basis?


----------



## Jean-Luc (May 12, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> Read the various threads fred. You're not bringing the tablets. Most of us know this.


That's good news. But why are people still discussing tactical voting to keep out the BNP. If you don't mind me asking, how are you going to vote yourself?


----------



## Stay Beautiful (May 12, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> Campbell equally feeble on repatriation, allowed Griffin to point out the BNP policy is already actual home office policy and has been since 1972.



I've heard of this before but as I understood it, it isn't open to British citizens? Which presumably would now be extended to the EU too. Whereas the BNP plan is. He could have pointed that out. Still, it shows how little research these folk do in prepartion for interviewing him. Surely they should have sussed by now that he isn't just gonna come on and starting banging on about the glories of Adolf Hitler and Nazi Germany etc?


----------



## JHE (May 12, 2009)

The 5 Live interview can be heard here:  http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/console/b00kctbm  It starts about 2 hrs 35 mins into that recording.


----------



## butchersapron (May 12, 2009)

Stay Beautiful said:


> I've heard of this before but as I understood it, it isn't open to British citizens? Which presumably would now be extended to the EU too. Whereas the BNP plan is. He could have pointed that out. Still, it shows how little research these folk do in prepartion for interviewing him. Surely they should have sussed by now that he isn't just gonna come on and starting banging on about the glories of Adolf Hitler and Nazi Germany etc?



I think that's correct, though it looks like there a 'take your family and fuck off for free' tag as well.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (May 12, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> On what basis?



The same poll Butchers. gives UKIP 3% as well.


----------



## butchersapron (May 12, 2009)

A national poll, for a regional election - that's sure to be accurate. In fact, the BNP vote has clearly dipped by 3.5 % in the last 5 years in the NW.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (May 12, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> A national poll, for a regional election - that's sure to be accurate. In fact, the BNP vote has clearly dipped by 3.5 % in the last 5 years in the NW.



They would need to poll possibly 3 times as much as the national average. That would be a very large statistical blip.


----------



## butchersapron (May 12, 2009)

The national average on a paper poll is neither here nor there. It is irrelavent. Don't try and use it. This sort of petty dishonesty is not at all helpful, and it becomes habitual.


----------



## butchersapron (May 12, 2009)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> They would need to poll possibly 3 times as much as the national average. That would be a very large statistical blip.



...and no it wouldn't. 8.5% in one area with a national 3-5% is not a blip/ esp when they scored 6.5 % there last time. 

Look, lie all you like in your leaflets and that, lie to people you're talking to in person - don't lie on here.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (May 12, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> ...and no it wouldn't. 8.5% in one area with a national 3-5% is not a blip/ esp when they scored 6.5 % there last time.
> 
> Look, lie all you like in your leaflets and that, lie to people you're talking to in person - don't lie on here.



We are discussing some poll details, you have your opinion which I respect. I'm trying to be optimistic, and not from a party POV. Accusations of "lying" really are very OTT and needlessly aggressive.

I looked into David Harvey quite a bit on your suggestion, have you tried meditation on mine?


----------



## butchersapron (May 12, 2009)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> We are discussing some poll details, you have your opinion which I respect, I'm trying to be optimistic, and not from a party POV. Accusations of "lying" really are very OTT and needlessly aggressive.
> 
> I looked into David Harvey quite a bit on your suggestion, have you tried meditation on mine?



Yeah and now i'm fucking qu ming grade muthafucking one.

If you pump out the 3-4% poll as a regional poll rather than a crappy national paper one then it's a lie.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (May 12, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> Yeah and now i'm fucking qu ming grade muthafucking one.
> 
> If you pump out the 3-4% poll as a regional poll rather than a crappy national paper one then it's a lie.



I didn't. I said it was a poll, should have given that detail for sure but it wasnt some constructed piece of propaganda wibble, nor was it a lie FWIW. Just a quick post about a poll. 

Pleased to hear of your spiritual progress though. Shame Natural Law Party aren't what they once were - they could have used the talents of one who develops so quickly.


----------



## The39thStep (May 12, 2009)

JimPage said:


> Although until about a week ago i was 95% sure they would not get elected in June, i cant help but think with the expenses row, that a lot of voters for mainstream parties are simply going to stay at home, whcih will benefit them in June
> 
> woudl probaly say one MEP now, in Yorkshire
> 
> no full list of CC canddiates available yet



They will benefit from the expenses scandal , snouts in the trough from the old guard parties sort of stuff.Take the divisive nature of their politics  out and they are the alternative to the the newlab/libdem/tory mire. What we need is a left wing version of the BNP.


----------



## treelover (May 13, 2009)

> What we need is a left wing version of the BNP.




Care to expand on that

Left Luggage seem to be challenging some left and particualry Trotskysist 'shibboleths'


----------



## frogwoman (May 13, 2009)

The39thStep said:


> They will benefit from the expenses scandal , snouts in the trough from the old guard parties sort of stuff.Take the divisive nature of their politics  out and they are the alternative to the the newlab/libdem/tory mire. *What we need is a left wing version of the BNP.*



erm ...


----------



## frogwoman (May 13, 2009)

Yes definitely what we need


----------



## dennisr (May 13, 2009)

frogwoman said:


> Yes definitely what we need



 that and a "patriotic, peoples war"

Which reminds me of how the ruling class managed to get of of their serious economic mess the last few times...


----------



## butchersapron (May 13, 2009)

He just means people doing the work on the ground - no one commenting here would disagree.


----------



## frogwoman (May 13, 2009)

true dat.


----------



## JimPage (May 13, 2009)

Rod Sleeves said:


> Why Yorkshire? Why not the North West?



I think yorkshire becasue most of the leve of antifascist resources put in to the NW     and their electoral decline in east lancashire and  oldham, which made their vote so high in 2004  

Their recent by election results in the region, say in Moston for example, arent high enough either - if they are only   polling 20% at by elections  they wont poll enough at elections liek this


----------



## JimPage (May 13, 2009)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> The latest Independent poll was quite rare in that if one dug around one could get the "others" breakdown. By that poll the BNP are on 3%.
> 
> I know we disagree on their prospects, I certainly respect any lack of complacency while obviously hoping my relative optimism is well placed.
> 
> ...



The times Euro poll today puts UKIp 7% , Green 5% BNP 2% .     i


----------



## Rod Sleeves (May 13, 2009)

JimPage said:


> I think yorkshire becasue most of the leve of antifascist resources put in to the NW     and their electoral decline in east lancashire and  oldham, which made their vote so high in 2004
> 
> Their recent by election results in the region, say in Moston for example, arent high enough either - if they are only   polling 20% at by elections  they wont poll enough at elections liek this



I agree their results in the NW haven't been as high as they should be, however as has been pointed out on here, UKIP always do better than anticipated in Euro elections, I don't see why the BNP's strong anti European message coupled with anti corruption, and racial populism shouldn't do well enough to tip them over.

Having said that, I still would not actually bet on them getting a seat just yet - it is possible they will fail to get their vote out, and it is _possible_ UKIP will manage to get a seat.


----------



## butchersapron (May 13, 2009)

Jim you alwast get too oprimistic just before the elections 

IMO their NW seat is nailed on already. Their regional votes coupled with the piss-poor greean and UKIP votes/potentially very low turnout/ angry protest vote means they're well on course. The question is can they pick up a second. Atm i'm inclining to yes.


----------



## butchersapron (May 13, 2009)

JimPage said:


> The times Euro poll today puts UKIp 7% , Green 5% BNP 2% .     i



This is national polls - they're meaningless for regional votes, esp for small parties with strong regional bases.


----------



## invisibleplanet (May 13, 2009)

Got spammed by BNP twice today. Nick Griffin writing to me - someone  who absolutely loathes him and his 'patriot party' - asking for money (is this phishing?). 

I have no idea why they sent them to me since I've been a vocal opponent for some years publicly. 




			
				nick griffin said:
			
		

> Fellow Patriot,
> 
> We now have a fraction over 3 WEEKS till D-Day 2009 - polling day fast approaches! Now is the time we must go into OVERDRIVE! We must raise our activity levels to maximum and dig deep till it hurts to fund the largest and most sophisticated campaign in nationalist history.


They want money. They must be desparate to write to me. 



			
				nick griffin said:
			
		

> Over the weeks to come from now until June 4th, 29 million leaflets will go out, BNP billboards will go out all over the country, newspaper adverts will plaster local newspapers nationwide and an estimated 40,000 to 100,000 info packs will be sent to enquiries!
> 
> I have some EXCELLENT news: so far this year we have had over 6,500 enquiries from the public! Last year we had around 5,000 enquiries in total...and that was INCLUDING the enquiries from the London Assembly campaign!


Wow, I mean, that's loads. Not. 



			
				nick griffin said:
			
		

> We have been receiving approximately 100 enquiries a day since November compared to around 10 a day this time last year.


6 months Nov - April = 30+31+31+28+31+30=181 
181 days x 100 enquries per day = 18,100  enquiries. However, above says "over 6,500 enquiries" so this means either the BNP can't add up, or they're lying about the 100 enquries per day, or both. 



			
				nick griffin said:
			
		

> We can now give you a sneak preview of our Euro Election campaign window poster (in the box to the right). We have printed 100,000 of these, full colour!!
> 
> Have you thought of what will happen to this country, your family, and your loved ones if the British National Party doesn't win a seat on June 4th ? I have, and it scares me rigid.


I'll have one only if I can draw a little hitler moustache on Griffin's face and thoroughly deface it. 



			
				nick griffin said:
			
		

> Our people, this island race, will be left to the mercy of the Eurocrats, PC fanatics and the multicultural extremists, all of whom have one goal in mind, the complete annihilation of all things British.


Super. Can't wait! Does that mean that Nick Griffin is leaving the country at last? Huzzah! 



			
				nick griffin said:
			
		

> The proud history of our people and nation will be eradicated bit by bit from history and our children will grow up in a sterile, politically correct, inclusive society where everybody else's rights are protected.


Does this mean that we're going to teach schoolchildren the real history about British Colonialism, massacres in India, Africa,  etc? 


> But if you're English, Welsh, Scots or Irish, forget it, you don't count!


I do count. I count better than you, Mr. Griffin (see above sum). 



			
				nick griffin said:
			
		

> We are now 2nd class citizens in our own country


That's just because you're in the BNP, and your ideas suck ... 



			
				nick griffin said:
			
		

> Our loved ones will increasingly become second-class citizens in their own land.


Perhaps if you were a better parent Nick ... 



			
				nick griffin said:
			
		

> Just look at how the indigenous people are treated right now.


I know. The massacres at Benin were atrocious. I think Britain should make amends, make apologies, pay compensations and give the bronzes back.. 



			
				nick griffin said:
			
		

> If we fail to win on June 4th the whole anti- British, multicultural nightmare will accelerate and become even more dangerous and powerful.


Nightmare? Multicultural Britain is fantastic. 



			
				money-grabbing scrounger said:
			
		

> > > Make a mighty donation NOW! Britain's FUTURE is at stake! Click here > >


And so it drolls on - inserting 'Make an heroic donation NOW!!' at every opportunity. 



			
				Bla bla bla said:
			
		

> In the North we have now opened a fully functioning design and print office, in the Midlands we have a highly efficient distribution warehouse, in the South we have a new fully functioning political administration office and now we have just opened a professional, fully equipped BNP call centre operation which is already proving to be more successful than we ever imagined.


Some people would pay good money to find out where those were located...



			
				OTT dualism said:
			
		

> Let us not forget, this is no ordinary political campaign, this is an epic battle between Good and Evil. A battle, the outcome of which will determine what kind of country we will leave behind for our children and grandchildren. I am constantly reminded of this when I look at my own children, and I'm sure you know what I mean.


Wow. Manichean battles-r-us. 
It goes on and on, blaming everyone apart from those who are really to blame. 

I don't want my email addy on their circulation list, and certainly did not put it there.
Any suggestions as to a response, if any?

The email ends: 



			
				nick griffin said:
			
		

> Please send your most generous gift immediately. It is crucial that we win a seat. What you do now may well decide our fate on June 4th!


My most generous gift, eh? 

Humorous suggestions please!


----------



## Jeff Robinson (May 13, 2009)

Barely disguised Hitlerian ranting from Lee Barnes, legal adviser and spokesman for the BNP:



> The fact that the Zionist run political Establishments of the nations of the world, and the political puppets of the media that in reality run our countries, have the power to demand the imprisonment of people because they find their views repugnant proves to me that these people who demand the imprisonment of those they disagree with are the real Nazis we should be afraid of, not the views of the holocaust deniers.



http:// leejohnbarnes.blogspot.com/2009/05/holocaust-denial-new-witchery.html



> Zionism, as a form of militant Israeli nationalism, is legitimate only in Israel.
> 
> When its tentacles are able to control our nations foreign policy and US foreign policy, as it did when it lobbyed for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan in order to get the oil and bolster Israel, then it is in fact organised treason.



http:// leejohnbarnes.blogspot.com/2009/05/harry-place-has-another-pop.html

The mentalist Hitlerian fuck stains.


----------



## joevsimp (May 13, 2009)

invisibleplanet said:


> My most generous gift, eh?
> 
> Humorous suggestions please!



well they failed to get a seat last time (tried to claim that the election was gerrymandered despite being under PR)and Britain dosen't appear to have been swallowed up by the waves/darkies




			
				butchersapron said:
			
		

> This is national polls - they're meaningless for regional votes, esp for small parties with strong regional bases.



but they were getting 2% in the south west at the last euro elections, its infeasable that their vote in NW and/or Y+H would be that much higher than national average to get in based on that poll (not that I don't think that that poll's underestimating them, although "shy tory/nazi syndrome" didn't really come into play last time)


----------



## butchersapron (May 14, 2009)

joevsimp said:


> butchersapron said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Why? They scored 6.4% in the NW last time - why should that vote have stayed the same or risen in the last 5 years? And in Y&H it was 8% - again, despite national polls having them on 2-3% at best at the ime. It's not only feasible, it's already happened.


----------



## invisibleplanet (May 14, 2009)

I think BNP have gone for the pensioner vote. Their newsletter is very 'Churchill was great - donate now'.


----------



## JimPage (May 14, 2009)

On candidates other than the Euros, a few more,a sn a few corrections

Glasgow Anniesland ward by election
Bristol Council 8
Darwen Council 9
Norfolk CC  7
West Sussex CC 20
East Sussex CC 8
Wiltshire CC 12
Somerset CC 7
Warwickshire CC 14
Central Bedforshsire DC 3
North Yorkshire 13
Dorset 1

More to follow


----------



## Jeff Robinson (May 14, 2009)

invisibleplanet said:


> I think BNP have gone for the pensioner vote.



That and the made up people vote. 

The thick fucking Hitleriod jackasses.


----------



## Zachor (May 14, 2009)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Barely disguised Hitlerian ranting from Lee Barnes, legal adviser and spokesman for the BNP:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Pop over to Harry's Place Barnes is getting a total kicking on there


----------



## JimPage (May 14, 2009)

On matters BNP and Elections I always check the betting markets to see if the bookies know something i dont

http://sports.williamhill.com/bet/EN/betting/t/1759/European-Politics.html

BNP to get a seat
1-5 on Yes
10-3    No

BNP to get 5 seats
4-1  Yes
1-7 on No


Bnp to win a seat at next general election
8-1 (10-1 last week)

Not a good sign


----------



## joevsimp (May 14, 2009)

invisibleplanet said:


> I think BNP have gone for the pensioner vote. Their newsletter is very 'Churchill was great - donate now'.



thats funny, I thought he was a supposed to be a "drunken, warmongering slob"


----------



## Zachor (May 14, 2009)

joevsimp said:


> thats funny, I thought he was a supposed to be a "drunken, warmongering slob"



He was the best man for the job at the time though.  I wouldn't have trusted Lord Halifax to deal with the fascist menace.  

Therein lies the irony.  Nationalist fash using a fighter against fascism for their campaign.


----------



## butchersapron (May 15, 2009)

Some of you were discussing how best to vote tactically to keep the BNP. A lot of the national polls have UKIP benefitting from the current anger rather than the BNP - i saw one on voting intentions for euros (not GE) and they were on 19%, (up 12%!) with the BNP static.


----------



## joevsimp (May 15, 2009)

Zachor said:


> He was the best man for the job at the time though.  I wouldn't have trusted Lord Halifax to deal with the fascist menace.
> 
> Therein lies the irony.  Nationalist fash using a fighter against fascism for their campaign.



well yes, my quote was something Tony Lecomber said years ago that always gets brought up


----------



## Zachor (May 15, 2009)

JimPage said:


> On matters BNP and Elections I always check the betting markets to see if the bookies know something i dont
> 
> http://sports.williamhill.com/bet/EN/betting/t/1759/European-Politics.html
> 
> ...




Thats frighteningly good odds on bnp victories.


----------



## Zachor (May 15, 2009)

Conservative activists are now cranking up the fight against the BNP.  Although it may be 'too little too late' for it to have affect on the Euros it may have a greater impact on the General Election.

http://www.nothingbritish.com/

I like the phrase 'There's nothing British about the BNP' which I feel will carry quite far.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (May 15, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> Some of you were discussing how best to vote tactically to keep the BNP. A lot of the national polls have UKIP benefitting from the current anger rather than the BNP - i saw one on voting intentions for euros (not GE) and they were on 19%, (up 12%!) with the BNP static.


Pissed off with the status quo although basically conservative, and a bit xenophobic but not actually out and out racist – the 'you are welcome here whatever your colour so long as you integrate' option. I would guess that there are quite a few people like that.


----------



## JimPage (May 15, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> Some of you were discussing how best to vote tactically to keep the BNP. A lot of the national polls have UKIP benefitting from the current anger rather than the BNP - i saw one on voting intentions for euros (not GE) and they were on 19%, (up 12%!) with the BNP static.



BNP are anywhere between 2% and 4% in the polls, and these polls, based on past election, under estimate their support by 20% or more

As to whether this will go up to the 7% odd national level they need to start winning seats very much depends on the Daily Telegraph now,and whether they stop printing esposes of MPs expenses. Its not so much the switch from say Tory to UKIP which matters, its whether say Labour can get its core vote out. And with what has been said in the Telegraph, that is not a certain thing, BNP threat or no BNP threat.

Wheteher, for example, Labour can get their activists out, or whether they will decide that the next 3 weeks is a good time for some gardening


----------



## JimPage (May 15, 2009)

Zachor said:


> Thats frighteningly good odds on bnp victories.



I agree. The fact is bookies dont put their money behind odds like these unless there is something in it. 5-1 is like saying its 80% certain they will get a seat ( if my maths are correct)


----------



## glenquagmire (May 15, 2009)

As a Labour activist, I have to say that the tomato plants need watering a lot at this time of year.


----------



## glenquagmire (May 15, 2009)

JimPage said:


> I agree. The fact is bookies dont put their money behind odds like these unless there is something in it. 5-1 is like saying its 80% certain they will get a seat ( if my maths are correct)



If you mean 1-5 then yes, they estimate an 83% chance of them getting a seat.


----------



## Corax (May 15, 2009)

This vitriol is all rather sad.

The BNP is a proper political party and their views should be accorded due respect.  Immigration is a touchy issue, but the BNP are unafraid to tackle it head-on.  I for one welcome our nazi overlords.


Seriously though, why is anyone bothered?  Griffin's a joke.  The BNP are a joke.  Whenever one of their spokesmen get any exposure, they embarass themselves.  Fuck 'em, they're not even worth talking about.


----------



## JimPage (May 15, 2009)

Zachor said:


> Conservative activists are now cranking up the fight against the BNP.  Although it may be 'too little too late' for it to have affect on the Euros it may have a greater impact on the General Election.
> 
> http://www.nothingbritish.com/
> 
> I like the phrase 'There's nothing British about the BNP' which I feel will carry quite far.



The problem is
1. Its Conservative activists- and the Tories name is mud with the public right now

2. Its sub searchlight pish about the BNP simply being a bunch of Rapists and Murderers


----------



## passthesalt (May 15, 2009)

JimPage said:


> The problem is
> 1. Its Conservative activists- and the Tories name is mud with the public right now
> 
> 2. Its sub searchlight pish about the BNP simply being a bunch of Rapists and Murderers



They've already been rumbled 

http://www.democracyforum.co.uk/british-politics-other-parties/61185-nothingbritish-com.html 

and if the numpties there can rumble them then anyone can.


----------



## butchersapron (May 15, 2009)

Yep, look at them calling the BNP socialist



> The BNP has a hard line socialist economic policy


----------



## Col_Buendia (May 15, 2009)

Just had a BNP election leaflet through my door with the post. Quite fucked off about that. IS the CWU not questioning it this time round - last time I seem to remember that the posties refused to carry their leaflets...?


----------



## JimPage (May 16, 2009)

http://bnp. (broken link)   org.uk/category/election-candidates-2009/

Full list of District, County and Euro canddiates here


----------



## butchersapron (May 16, 2009)

From tommorows Observer



> A poll published today on the website PoliticsHome.com, and previewed exclusively by the Observer, shows that the scandal has driven more than a quarter of voters to change the party they support. The main beneficiary is Ukip, followed by the British National party and the Greens.



Complicated.


----------



## treelover (May 16, 2009)

If only No2EU had got their act together much earlier, says it all really


----------



## Grandma Death (May 18, 2009)

British Job  for British People doesnt extend to advertising agencies by all accounts.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-st...workers-uses-american-actors-115875-21365018/


----------



## joevsimp (May 18, 2009)

treelover said:


> If only No2EU had got their act together much earlier, says it all really



yes, CNWP has existed for a couple of years now (I thought of joining it but I didn't think it'd ever get beyond the Socialist Party and their smaller allies) Bob Crow has only himself to blame* if they end up with nothing come june.


*thats just for the poor timing, if he came up with the shite name then he diserves another slap


----------



## Jean-Luc (May 18, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> From tommorows Observer
> 
> 
> > A poll published today on the website PoliticsHome.com, and previewed exclusively by the Observer, shows that the scandal has driven more than a quarter of voters to change the party they support. The main beneficiary is Ukip, followed by the British National party and the Greens.
> ...


It means that the best way to stop the BNP getting any MEPs (if that's your priority of priorities) is probably not just to vote UKIP yourself but to encourage others to as well. But how many of youse who are jumping up and down about the BNP getting seats will really take the logic of their ostensible position that far. Not many, if any, I dare say. In other words, you don't really think that stopping the BNP is the most important issue in this election. Which in fact it isn't.


----------



## butchersapron (May 18, 2009)

Well, i'm voting NF to keep the BNP out.


----------



## Gingerman (May 18, 2009)

Bnp shoots itself in the foot part fuck knows what no.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...harry-only-got-medal-because-he-is-black.html


----------



## treelover (May 19, 2009)

> I am surrounded by white people who wouldn't know a days work if it bit them on their fat racist whining arses who go on and on about "the Poles" and the "Kosovans" (they mean the Iraquis) coming over here and stealing our jobs.
> 
> WHAT!???????
> 
> ...



Poster on Cif, way to go girl, this is surely the way to gather support against the BNP


----------



## JimPage (May 20, 2009)

Few odds and sods 

Election broadcast Friday, at 6.55, this is their prime time broadcast

By election tomorrow in Salford, keeping eyes on % vote here, in a ward they have never been able to do much in at past elections.  UKIP & Green opposition

Bookies odd. Odds now  4/6 on and 11/10 against that they will win a euro seat- but betting odds all over place at moment

New British Jobs for British workers protests breaking out just as their leaflets hitting mats


----------



## JimPage (May 20, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> Well, i'm voting NF to keep the BNP out.



Which reminds me, just 3 NF, 1 EFP and 1 TW candidate this time round


----------



## treelover (May 20, 2009)

> New British Jobs for British workers protests breaking out just as their leaflets hitting mats



and?


----------



## butchersapron (May 22, 2009)

*Salford (Irwell Riverside)
*
Labour 606
Lib Dem 293
BNP 276 (17.1%)
Con 189
Green 125 
UKIP 123

turnout 17.5%

Looks like hold steady - not  a great improvement in these times. Will be dissapointed. NW vote that's good for euros.


----------



## butchersapron (May 22, 2009)

Labour go up by 200. Odd 
Tory large dip, lib dem small dip.

Stephen Coen Labour 888
Anthony Healey British National Party 233
David Lewis Conservative 286
Kenneth Mckelvey Liberal Democrats 337


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (May 22, 2009)

Not as bad as might have been. Certainly not on the level of the Moston result a few weeks back and not showing a big advance in the light of anti-establishment sentiment.


----------



## butchersapron (May 22, 2009)

The vote went up and the vote held though. Need turnout.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (May 22, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> The vote went up and the vote held though. Need turnout.



The activist is local and they had a good-ish local base. They put quite a bit of effort in (not as much as they said mind). The increase doesnt match the current press hype of their increased prospects.


----------



## joevsimp (May 22, 2009)

JimPage said:


> Which reminds me, just 3 NF, 1 EFP and 1 TW candidate this time round



Romford and Horchurch aren't in any county, so where are Third Way/National Liberal Party standing


----------



## JimPage (May 22, 2009)

By election result yesterday, Salford Irwell Riverside

Labour 606
Lib Dem 293
BNP 276 (17.1%)
Con 189
Green 125 
UKIP 123

Much debate elsewhere as to whether this is a good or bad result for BNP- but their vote up from May 2008 in same ward

Turnout 17.5%

Green and UKIP not beating BNP here......


----------



## audiotech (May 23, 2009)

Latest poll.



> Contrary to some predictions, however, the poll suggests that it is the Greens and the UK Independence party (Ukip) who are making the running on the political fringes, as opposed to the British National party.
> The Greens are set to take 9% of the total vote, while Ukip is on 10%, leaving the BNP way behind on just 1% – considerably down on the 5% the far-right party achieved at the last European elections in 2004.


 






Source.


----------



## dennisr (May 23, 2009)

MC5 said:


> Latest poll.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



All still to play for - a low result for the BNP like the prediction above would not be that bad a result at all. It would be a concious decision by voters not to vote for them - especially given all the coverage they have in the mediaI'm not holding my breath at the moment though.


----------



## butchersapron (May 23, 2009)

From UK Polling Report



> As the Guardian say in their commentary, when compared to their ratings in other polls and the support they received in 2004, it looks as though there is a social desirability bias here resulting in the BNP support being unreported.


----------



## audiotech (May 23, 2009)

dennisr said:


> All still to play for - a low result for the BNP like the prediction above would not be that bad a result at all. It would be a concious decision by voters not to vote for them - especially given all the coverage they have in the mediaI'm not holding my breath at the moment though.


 
Neither am I, as this almost certainly underestimates the level of support for the BNP, considering that there will be those BNP voters reluctant to admit they'll be voting for these fuckwits.


----------



## Corax (May 23, 2009)

tinyurl.com/qbc5dl said:
			
		

> Eddy O'Sullivan, one of the BNP's north-west candidates for the *European elections, said he had written comments such as "Wogs go home Gurkhas very welcome"






			
				tinyurl.com/qbc5dl said:
			
		

> "I don't believe those comments are racist. I'm not a racist and that is that."



Right then...


----------



## durruti02 (May 24, 2009)

JimPage said:


> Which reminds me, just 3 NF, 1 EFP and 1 TW candidate this time round


 in euros? or CC?? and are TW standing against BNP???


----------



## JimPage (May 25, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> in euros? or CC?? and are TW standing against BNP???



Both fighting a by election in Hornchurch on June 4th- Havering St Andrews ward


----------



## JimPage (May 25, 2009)

Note that BNP website down all weekend in a DNS attack at present. One interesting thing picked up from the Independant article this morning on their web presence

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...cks-than-all-other-major-parties-1690406.html

And this is that they are not promoting the use of their website for queries, but are promoting a phone number for voters to call instead. I had put the absence of their website address on their election communciations down to another Collett balls up, but apparently its another lesson they learned from the Obama campaign - its better to get an enquirer on the phone than point them to a website. This type of thinking shows slightly less organisational chaos than searchlight would have us all believe


----------



## audiotech (May 25, 2009)

JimPage said:


> Note that BNP website down all weekend in a DNS attack at present. One interesting thing picked up from the Independant article this morning on their web presence
> 
> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...cks-than-all-other-major-parties-1690406.html
> 
> And this is that they are not promoting the use of their website for queries, but are promoting a phone number for voters to call instead. I had put the absence of their website address on their election communciations down to another Collett balls up, but apparently its another lesson they learned from the Obama campaign - its better to get an enquirer on the phone than point them to a website. This type of thinking shows slightly less organisational chaos than searchlight would have us all believe


 
Oh I don't know some are suggesting that the DoS attack is a sham and a cover story for the move to another provider - and maybe their backups are crap and their expertise in re-creating the site are inadequate?


----------



## butchersapron (May 25, 2009)

The express did a poll in the NW constituency of Salford, Blears seat (and where there was a by-election last week):

BNP - 38.4%
Labour - 19.2 %
Tories 13.4 %
Liberal Democrats - 10.7%
Greens - 7.1%
UK Independent Party 7.1%

Now that's clearly bonkers, but is it more bonkers than the poll which has them on 1%? The Express gives no details of the poll other than saying it was based on 500 people and that's it!


----------



## JimPage (May 25, 2009)

MC5 said:


> Oh I don't know some are suggesting that the DoS attack is a sham and a cover story for the move to another provider - and maybe their backups are crap and their expertise in re-creating the site are inadequate?



May be, may be not, as a technical dinosaur on internet matters havent got the scoobiest. However, if, as BNP are reporting, they tried to take out Clear Channel as well (ad company who are accepting BNP adverts), dont think Mr Plod will be too benevolent to them


----------



## JimPage (May 25, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> The express did a poll in the NW constituency of Salford, Blears seat (and where there was a by-election last week):
> 
> BNP - 38.4%
> Labour - 19.2 %
> ...



Would put both polls as bonkers. I cant honesltly see BNP falling back to 1999 levels in the current political climate

They are either going to poll 3.5% nationally and win nothing, or poll 7% nationally, 2 MEPs and 15 county councillors.


----------



## audiotech (May 25, 2009)

JimPage said:


> May be, may be not, as a technical dinosaur on internet matters havent got the scoobiest. However, if, as BNP are reporting, they tried to take out Clear Channel as well (ad company who are accepting BNP adverts), dont think Mr Plod will be too benevolent to them


 
The loon Darby says "there is no doubt that whoever has organised this has had to pay out a serious amount of money to the criminal underworld."


----------



## JimPage (May 25, 2009)

MC5 said:


> The loon Darby says "there is no doubt that whoever has organised this has had to pay out a serious amount of money to the criminal underworld."



Indeed, i blame Martians ZOG Common Purpose myself

Seriusoly though, as amusing thsi is to use, and annoying to the fash, will it actually handicap their efforts to get elected too much?  

BNP site now up and running again


----------



## durruti02 (May 25, 2009)

JimPage said:


> Both fighting a by election in Hornchurch on June 4th- Havering St Andrews ward


 but that is Pat's turf .. how does he feel about griffin standing against him?? .. and what does that say about Solidarity!


----------



## JimPage (May 26, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> but that is Pat's turf .. how does he feel about griffin standing against him?? .. and what does that say about Solidarity!



Harrington is based in Edinburgh and has been for years now, and however  well TW and BNP get on in Solidarity, they cant co-operate in regards to  electoral politics. No diferrent to soem of the left united fronts where they co-operate on one issue (say antifascism) and fight like hell on everything else


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## JimPage (May 26, 2009)

http://euobserver.com/9/28175

One interesting onsevration from Gerry Gable in an interveiew given to a UKIP freindly site where he admits a BNp seat is "probable"




"The far-right British National Party however was on just one percent, down substantially from other polls that have given the whites-only anti-immigrant party four percent or as much as seven.

"Scandals over sleaze in the BNP have hit them as well, with reports of [the party's leader, Nick Griffin] having spent thousands of pounds in party funds on an extension built on his home in Wales," Gerry Gable, the publisher of Searchlight, the long-standing anti-fascist magazine, told EUobserver, "and other party funds lost starting a second-hand car business that went belly-up within months."

"The threat from the BNP has been overblown," he said. "Consistently, the BNP have scored around four to five percent in polls, despite the expenses scandal. The Guardian poll result is too low."

"But the BNP have blown it. A few months ago Ukip was on six or seven percent, but since the campaign kicked off, it's Ukip that have scooped up all these angry voters, not the BNP."

The Labour front bench has at times suggested the party may even win as many as seven seats, a figure recently touted by the Daily Telegraph as well, but Mr Cable believes this is just government politicians trying to "boost their own importance".

"One seat is quite probable though," reckoned Mr Cable. "But don't panic - that's the best they're going to do.


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## JimPage (May 26, 2009)

Current bookies odds on BNP to win a seat 

Paddy Power 8/15 on
William Hill  4/6 on
Ladbrokes 4/6 on

As to vote % Ladbrokes offering

less that 8% 8/15
Over 8% 11/8


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## durruti02 (May 26, 2009)

JimPage said:


> http://euobserver.com/9/28175
> 
> One interesting onsevration from Gerry Gable in an interveiew given to a UKIP freindly site where he admits a BNp seat is "probable"
> 
> "The threat from the BNP has been overblown," he said. .. But the BNP have blown it. A few months ago Ukip was on six or seven percent, but since the campaign kicked off, it's Ukip that have scooped up all these angry voters, not the BNP... One seat is quite probable though," reckoned Mr Cable. "But don't panic - that's the best they're going to do.



hmm


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## treelover (May 26, 2009)

> One interesting onsevration from Gerry Gable in an interveiew given to a UKIP freindly site where he admits a BNp seat is "probable"
> 
> "The threat from the BNP has been overblown," he said. .. But the BNP have blown it. A few months ago Ukip was on six or seven percent, but since the campaign kicked off, it's Ukip that have scooped up all these angry voters, not the BNP... One seat is quite probable though," reckoned Mr Cable. "But don't panic - that's the best they're going to do





So why is Searchlight hyping the BNP threat up then?, maybe as so many of the HNH people are L/Party linked, a desperate attempt to push people into still voting for a now discredited and venal party.


----------



## editor (May 26, 2009)

I just saw their party political broadcast. It was unbelievably badly put together affair, with an added-on voiceover at the end that sounded like the ones you get at cinemas for local restaurants. Really embarrassingly bad.


----------



## goldenecitrone (May 26, 2009)

editor said:


> I just saw their party political broadcast. It was unbelievably badly put together affair, with an added-on voiceover at the end that sounded like the ones you get at cinemas for local restaurants. Really embarrassingly bad.



I particularly enjoyed the funeral music playing in the background. Nice touch. If only it was 1945 and we'd just won the war. What a bunch of clowns.


----------



## trevhagl (May 27, 2009)

editor said:


> I just saw their party political broadcast. It was unbelievably badly put together affair, with an added-on voiceover at the end that sounded like the ones you get at cinemas for local restaurants. Really embarrassingly bad.




What? You mean the nazis had a broadcast? I woulda liked to have seen that!


----------



## DotCommunist (May 27, 2009)

goldenecitrone said:


> I particularly enjoyed the funeral music playing in the background. Nice touch. If only it was 1945 and we'd just won the war. What a bunch of clowns.



I had the sound down cos I was busy surfing and I looked over my shoulder to see Griffins dead eyes boring into my back.


----------



## trevhagl (May 27, 2009)

DotCommunist said:


> I had the sound down cos I was busy surfing and I looked over my shoulder to see Griffins dead eyes boring into my back.




Maybe just as well you had the sound down. This is all very amusing considering TV guidelines on racism etc. Remember the outrage regarding a throwaway racist comment on shit telly (Big Brother) yet here's someone who built an entire career around racism given free space??


----------



## rover07 (May 27, 2009)

JimPage said:


> Current bookies odds on BNP to win a seat
> 
> Paddy Power 8/15 on
> William Hill  4/6 on
> ...



worth a punt then


----------



## audiotech (May 27, 2009)

treelover said:


> So why is Searchlight hyping the BNP threat up then?, maybe as so many of the HNH people are L/Party linked, a desperate attempt to push people into still voting for a now discredited and venal party.


 
According to Derek Wall of the Green party posting on the Socialist Unity blog:



> The latest detailed breakdown of voting intention figures from YouGov for the North of England shows both the Greens and the BNP on 8% each. UKIP are on 11%. Unlike the polls from ComRes and ICM, that predict BNP support at 5% and 1% (clearly an underestimate), YouGov is likely to be far more accurate and deals with a far larger sample group in regards to “the North”.


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## butchersapron (May 27, 2009)

Bear in mind that poll taken nearly two weeks ago. It's far more in line with my expectations then some of the daft ones we've seen recently. It also has the BNP on 7% in the midlands as well - though this may be undersestimated due to being bundled in with wales for some reason. And the first suggestion that the BNP may do better in London that many expect. 5% in this poll.

edit: and to put those figues into some further context -they did the same poll a week _before_ the expenses scandal blew up - BNP was on 6% UKIP on 6%, and the Greens on 3% (also found 8% BNP support in GE, so that's _possibly_ a soft 6%, same for Greens where it was 1% for GE)

edit2: just noticed somerthing in that D Wall analysis of the Salford result:



> What is disappointing and worrying is that in a polling district containing 2,000+ students in halls, just 8 people voted



-that's not going to good for the green vote in the city areas they're pinning a lot of hope on.


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## JimPage (May 28, 2009)

rover07 said:


> worth a punt then



dunno, not a betting man, but the odds are that they will win a seat, and i would trust a bookie over a pollster in this matter

William Hill now 2-5 on 
Paddy Power 8/15 on

By-election tonight in Middlesbrough where they are standing- last before next weeks elections

Postal votes are starting to be opened and verified alreasy- and remours flying various forums that BNP support at the ballot box is far from 1%......


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## taffboy gwyrdd (May 28, 2009)

Butchers

"that's not going to good for the green vote in the city areas they're pinning a lot of hope on"

Student turnout at locals is always dismal. Doesnt mean to say it will be great next Thursday. Fascists have better history in Salford than Greens and in general it is far more of a potential fascist demographic off the bat.


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## durruti02 (May 28, 2009)

euro results not in till the 9th apparrently .. do we get exit polls and leaks before? btw i am going for 3 for BNP .. one in London or south,  one in NW and one in Yorks .. unless they fuck up badly between now and then .. one of their key strategies atm is to attack the UKIP (their main competitor) and their 'corruption' .. will see how that goes 

had union collegue going on today about ' my sister says everyone where she lives in essex is voting bnp' .. he is very anti bnp


----------



## dennisr (May 28, 2009)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Fascists have better history in Salford than Greens and in general it is far more of a potential fascist demographic off the bat.



They did not get the win they expected in the recent Irwell Riverside ward though, despite plenty of local press coverage and leafleting - "a straight fight between us and labour" was the leaflet..

They only gained 43 votes over the previous election - polling 276 (17%) - ending up in third place. Nw Labour held the seat but lost a 1/4 of its vote. LibDems and Tories also lost votes - suggesting votes going to green or UKIP.


----------



## butchersapron (May 28, 2009)

I thinnk one NW, close in either east/west mids/ Y&H - people will be suprised by the london vote.


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## butchersapron (May 28, 2009)

dennisr said:


> They did not get the win they expected in the recent Irwell Riverside ward though, despite plenty of local press coverage and leafleting - "a straight fight between us and labour" was the leaflet..
> 
> They only gained 43 votes over the previous election - polling 276 (17%) - ending up in third place. Nw Labour held the seat but lost a 1/4 of its vote. LibDems and Tories also lost votes - suggesting votes going to green or UKIP.



Nah, grrens and UKIP both made no gains. BNP only party to gain votes.

That's a standing up vote on a falling turnout.


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## dennisr (May 28, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> btw i am going for 3 for BNP .. one in London or south,  one in NW and one in Yorks ..



would not be too surprised to see such a result - i am more 'hopeful' (if you can call it that in the circumstances...) of 1


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## dennisr (May 28, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> That's a standing up vote on a falling turnout.



yep, fair point


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## durruti02 (May 28, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> I thinnk one NW, close in either east/west mids/ Y&H - people will be suprised by the london vote.


 yes i think london could throw a right wierd result .. possibly big green and big bnp votes?? christian party could also make a breakthru .. they could clear up a significant % of the afro carib and more so the african vote which 
would hurt Labour a lot in inner London


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## taffboy gwyrdd (May 28, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> Nah, grrens and UKIP both made no gains. BNP only party to gain votes.
> 
> That's a standing up vote on a falling turnout.



They put in a pretty good effort in a promising-ish seat where they had a local candidate and good-ish previous results.

The result was pretty underwhelming, and they won't be able to pull off that amount of campaigning over the whole region.

Fair enough, UKIP didnt do great but over the region and the country I hope the British public will turn out to be just too decent and intelligent to vote for the filth in the neccessary numbers. Many will see UKIP as a respectable right-ish tilt and, just like last time, UKIP will probably keep the bona fide fascists at bay nationwide.

I agree with you that London could be the suprise.


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## taffboy gwyrdd (May 28, 2009)

In other news: The Manchester Evening News has been running high profile anti-BNP articles this week. At first I thought it would be a case of "no bad publicity" and looked to the comments sections for fascist apoligism. But most comments are pretty supportive and Griffin is very riled, calling The Screws "vermin" in a recent piece.


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## butchersapron (May 29, 2009)

Fluff


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## taffboy gwyrdd (May 29, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> Fluff



As is this. but it's funny fluff. Apols if posted already.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_aIJN7KP5AeI/ShdYcg6_shI/AAAAAAAACcc/WCzl6pzkkMA/s1600-h/BNP-FLYER.jpg


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## butchersapron (May 29, 2009)

North Ormesby & Brambles Farm (boro)

Lab 549
BNP 175 (19.06%)
Con 131
Lib Dem 63

2007 resuklt:

Tory - 186, 
Lab - 582 (?)
Lab - 522(?)
New Nationalist Party - 118 (BNP split? edit: sh. ebanks party, now defunkt)

That's off SF mind.


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## TremulousTetra (May 29, 2009)

analysis upon who their voters would vote for if they didn't vote BNP.  What I have seen soul for seem to suggest they would vote UKIP or Conservative.


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## butchersapron (May 29, 2009)

That's not why they're wining 70% plus of their seats in old labout wards.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (May 29, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> That's not why they're wining 70% plus of their seats in old labout wards.



Indeed not. An AFA / LRC comrade and I had quite a heated debate in the boozer one night. He admitted that Labour had shat on the working class and that there was within the white working class a "parochial xenophobia". His words, not mine.


----------



## TremulousTetra (May 30, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> That's not why they're wining 70% plus of their seats in old labout wards.


but is it true they would vote UKIP or Conservative?  It was demonstrated to be fact, in the London Mayor elections.  

They are fucking good reasons why the labour voter is going down, new labour is Tory lite, but does your statistic automatically mean the one time labour voters are now voting for the fascist?  Doesn't seem to be the case in the London Mayor elections.


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## JimPage (May 30, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> North Ormesby & Brambles Farm (boro)
> 
> Lab 549
> BNP 175 (19.06%)
> ...



Yep NNP were Ebanks splinter group- BNP vote up from 13% to 19% if you assume NNP voters are BNP ones as well. Not earth shattering, but still 19%, and second place here

Times Populus has them at 5% today- significantly up from 3% two weeks ago with the same polling organisation . 8% in The North of England


----------



## JHE (May 30, 2009)

JimPage said:


> Times Populus has them at 5% today- significantly up from 3% two weeks ago with the same polling organisation . 8% in The North of England



It might be significant, but I'm really not sure.  Polls seem to be all over the place at the moment and we don't really know how public anger and exasperation at the expenses scandals are going to affect turnout or party choice.

In the case of the BNP, I think that sympathy for their views is far far wider than the number of people who will be willing to vote for them.

For fed-up patriotic voters (and ballerinas), there is at the moment an odd proliferation of little parties bidding for their votes.  Round my way, we have (at least) the following:

BNP
UKIP
English Democrats [for an English parliament, I believe]
UK First [a split from UKIP?]

It's all very unpredictable.


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## durruti02 (Jun 3, 2009)

new undercover video of bnp in essex


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## butchersapron (Jun 4, 2009)

Prediction. BNP - seat in NW, poss one in Y&H but i think will just fall short- but very close. Will do well in east and west mids but not well enough to geat a seat. The London/SE and East vote will suprise a lot of people. Will pick up a few more councillors in the country council elections, but not a huge number. Overall situation is going to depend very heavily on turn out.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 4, 2009)

well I had my £20 with William Hills at 4-6 that they would get a seat which i think will be in the North West. I must say that looking at that essex video its apparant that the supposed no platform that some groups push is now utterly discredited as being just an academic slogan


----------



## dennisr (Jun 4, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> Prediction. BNP - seat in NW, poss one in Y&H but i think will just fall short- but very close. Will do well in east and west mids but not well enough to geat a seat. The London/SE and East vote will suprise a lot of people. Will pick up a few more councillors in the country council elections, but not a huge number. Overall situation is going to depend very heavily on turn out.



yep, that sounds about right - and would not be 'too' bad - given the uproar over the main establishment parties at the moment. Still all a bit up in the air, its just a matter of 'wait and see' now


----------



## JimPage (Jun 4, 2009)

My Honest prediction after Labour's problems over last 2 days which may have ruined mod work has been doen over last few weeks by antifascists.

Sorry to say 2 Y&H and NW.  

County Councillors - probably about 10

For first indications Keep eye on Linconshire CC for overnight county council results -very specifically the Boston and Holbeach  where they are stand chance. If you want you can get the Lincs CC results Tweeted to you

http://twitter.com/lincsccelect


----------



## frogwoman (Jun 4, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> Bear in mind that poll taken nearly two weeks ago. It's far more in line with my expectations then some of the daft ones we've seen recently. It also has the BNP on 7% in the midlands as well - though this may be undersestimated due to being bundled in with wales for some reason. And the first suggestion that the BNP may do better in London that many expect. 5% in this poll.
> 
> edit: and to put those figues into some further context -they did the same poll a week _before_ the expenses scandal blew up - BNP was on 6% UKIP on 6%, and the Greens on 3% (also found 8% BNP support in GE, so that's _possibly_ a soft 6%, same for Greens where it was 1% for GE)
> 
> ...



But if 8 people voted in the entire district surely that means they'd have to run the election again?


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 4, 2009)

8 students, not 8 people. And i don't think there's any min voter stuff.


----------



## Stoat Boy (Jun 4, 2009)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> He admitted that Labour had shat on the working class and that there was within the white working class a "_*parochial*_ _*xenophobia*_". His words, not mine.



British jobs for British workers. Thats the issue the left need to deal with before they stand a chance of getting anywhere again.


----------



## frogwoman (Jun 4, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> 8 students, not 8 people. And i don't think there's any min voter stuff.



Oh, OK. That's a pretty low turnout for students and even by local election standards, at reading the students are normally the ones who bump up the voter turnouts ... barely anyone else can be bothered!


----------



## durruti02 (Jun 6, 2009)

h t t p://bnp.org.uk/2009/06/bnp-take-third-county-council-seat/

griffin 'broadcast' at about 5 o clock on County Council election results day  (??)

'contributed to destruction of labour .. by distracting them .. we have pushed .. the media in attacking the BNP  .. to create the circumstances that will get well over a dozen UKIP MEPS elected ..  UKIP .. good candidates but corrupt party ...  we are NOT going to win seats in most of england ..  we might not win any ..whatever happens thousends of enquireies .. hundreds of new members day by day .. long term patient grass roots work .. thats what others don't do and what we do .. coming of age of BNP mounting serious national election ' etc etc etc blah blah blah


----------



## mutley (Jun 6, 2009)

If they get no MEPs at all they'll have trouble holding what they've got together, and to some extent be vulnerable to counter attack.

But they probably will..


----------



## JimPage (Jun 6, 2009)

we will see on sunday, but having done some number crunching on their ward results, i still think they have increased their vote enough, in enough areas, to get elected, maybe 1 or 2


----------



## JimPage (Jun 6, 2009)

mutley said:


> If they get no MEPs at all they'll have trouble holding what they've got together, and to some extent be vulnerable to counter attack.
> 
> But they probably will..



of they dont get in, i think several things could happen, including griffin stepping aside for someone without the baggage. even if he wins, he must know he cannot take the party to the level of eurnonationalist parties in europe

i just cant see them returning to a street level strategy though.


----------



## frogwoman (Jun 6, 2009)

I imagine Griffin will stand aside at some stage, yeh


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 6, 2009)

Nope. He's there for 30 years plus.


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## frogwoman (Jun 6, 2009)

What makes you think that - don't you think he might stand aside to give someone relatively unknown a chance of success? (as much as the BNP will be able to succeed)


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 6, 2009)

Why would he? And who is there? There's no one. He's there for NG not anyone else - and he's goiing to use the experience of the last 10 year to keep him at the top for a very long time. The most succesful far-right leader ever in this country will not walk away or stand aside. The very first st thing he ddi when elected was to change the constituionnto to make it harder for him to be challenged or removed.


----------



## frogwoman (Jun 6, 2009)

I know you're sceptical about this sort of thing Butchers, and so am i but surely a lot of things holding back people from voting BNP is the fact that Nick Griffin has a reputation for having said some unsavoury things in the past (but he's a far right leader, so what do you expect?) and getting someone new in (although maybe not now) would remove some of the "baggage" about the BNP as an unacceptable option based on NG's past statements etc 

it's just a thought tho and probably wrong ...


----------



## treelover (Jun 6, 2009)

Jean le Pen said similar things, yet he has remained leader of the FN for many many years.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 6, 2009)

frogwoman said:


> I know you're sceptical about this sort of thing Butchers, and so am i but surely a lot of things holding back people from voting BNP is the fact that Nick Griffin has a reputation for having said some unsavoury things in the past (but he's a far right leader, so what do you expect?) and getting someone new in (although maybe not now) would remove some of the "baggage" about the BNP as an unacceptable option based on NG's past statements etc
> 
> it's just a thought tho and probably wrong ...



The idea solution would be for some BPP nut to shoot him 

Seriously though -there's no one else. In same way that there's no other game on the far right but the BNP.


----------



## durruti02 (Jun 7, 2009)

yes i can't see anyone else in the BNP but griffin .. his crew appear to be old NF who are just as tainted ..


----------



## audiotech (Jun 7, 2009)

Griffin recently strengthened the "leadership principle" in the BNP to ensure his tenure as leader.

He'll not be retiring to Croatia anytime soon.


----------



## Prince Rhyus (Jun 7, 2009)

BBC Radio 4 reporting Nazeez have a Euro seat in Yorkshire.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jun 8, 2009)

Is there any link to a guide for forum moderators on urban 75, on how to apply the no platform policy they have?


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 8, 2009)

I don't follow you rmp.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jun 8, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> I don't follow you rmp.



When someone create a link to a fascist website, they are asked to break it.  When a fascist start's posting on the website, they are stopped.  There seems to be some kind of logical policy that is applied by moderators, I'm wondering what it is.

I'm on another website, where they are wondering how to apply no platform, so I thought there may be some guidelines on here.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 8, 2009)

There's isn't a no-platform on policy here though. As far as i can see all that happens is that links to far-right sites are broken and far-right posters who behave are allowed to post. To be honest if you're going to ban people elsewhere for being far-right then all you need to do is ban them - surely?


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jun 8, 2009)

Thanks for that correction.  It has always looked on here like there is a no platform policy to me, just shows how wrong you can be.  That will be why my first post didn't make sense to you.


----------



## JimPage (Jun 8, 2009)

Interesting as to what effect this has on BNP. CAnt see other than a growth in membership and influence- as well as a functioning Eurnonationalist block in Europe

BNP odds of winning a seat at the general election now dropped to 5-1 from 8-1 last week


----------



## Fedayn (Jun 8, 2009)

JimPage said:


> Interesting as to what effect this has on BNP. CAnt see other than a growth in membership and influence- as well as a functioning Eurnonationalist block in Europe



There's a 'leading' W Mids BNP activist goes on a football website I frequent. He pretty quickly called for Griffin to step aside even though he'd got them this far. 
Imho it makes Griffin even safer now, after all this is their high-water mark and under his leadership. 
Of course there is the irony in their 2 reps both being former 'leaders' in the 2 former warring NF splits, Brons a former Flag group devotee along with Steve Brady and Joe 'Rosary Beads' Pearce and Griffin the former Political Soldier/Third Positionist alongside Derek Holland and Co.


----------



## scawenb (Jun 8, 2009)

They haven't a hope of a General Election victory


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 8, 2009)

They have the best chance a a far right party ever has and in 3 or 4 seats - low turnout combined with them getting their vote out opens the door a little.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jun 8, 2009)

Seems to me like there was a pretty unprecedented level of anti fascist propaganda in the run up to the election.  Did this have an effect?  It has been said in the past at this increases the vote, BUT the BNP poll was down on five years a go.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 8, 2009)

No it wasn't - it went up quite significantly - by 150 000 extras votes, and on a low turnout.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jun 8, 2009)

scawenb said:


> They haven't a hope of a General Election victory


 this wasn't so much of victory, has a win by default, with the others on boats collapsing, rather than there is increasing.  However, couldn't their B are we a net by default in the general election?  Especially now they have a lot more money to throw at propaganda etc.?


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jun 8, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> No it wasn't - it went up quite significantly - by 150 000 extras votes, and on a low turnout.


 not what I've read,
But I will take your word for it, as your usually quite good at this.

So 150,000 votes, up from one to what?

Considering the debacle in British politics, should it have not been a bigger increase?


----------



## Stoat Boy (Jun 8, 2009)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> Seems to me like there was a pretty unprecedented level of anti fascist propaganda in the run up to the election.  Did this have an effect?  It has been said in the past at this increases the vote, BUT the BNP poll was down on five years a go.



I thought they got more votes over-all ?


----------



## dennisr (Jun 8, 2009)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> Considering the debacle in British politics, should it have not been a bigger increase?



Thing is RP3 there is no positive spin to be put on this. The more folk try, the more desperate it sounds.

We need a serious political alternative - not hoodwinking, not spin, not email and blogging campaigns, not "vote for the less bad who are going to shaft you any way"


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 8, 2009)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> not what I've read,
> But I will take your word for it, as your usually quite good at this.
> 
> So 150,000 votes, up from one to what?
> ...


800 000 to 950 000. Considering what they are i think that's a pretty resonable return with 2 MEPs in the bag. I don't think you can really diminish that by saying that they should have 5 or 6 or whatever because that was never on the cards. They did just about as well as they could reasonably have hoped for - slightly better in fact.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jun 8, 2009)

dennisr said:


> Thing is RP3 there is no positive spin to be put on this. The more folk try, the more desperate it sounds.


No? Damn!



> We need a serious political alternative - not hoodwinking, not spin, not email and blogging campaigns, not "vote for the less bad who are going to shaft you any way"


 pretty much given up on that.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jun 8, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> 800 000 to 950 000. Considering what they are i think that's a pretty resonable return with 2 MEPs in the bag. I don't think you can really diminish that by saying that they should have 5 or 6 or whatever because that was never on the cards. They did just about as well as they could reasonably have hoped for - slightly better in fact.


That seems a fair assessment, off those numbers.

"Considering what they are "??? Facist, or did you have some other meaning to that statement? ie small?


----------



## JHE (Jun 8, 2009)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> Considering the debacle in British politics, should it have not been a bigger increase?



You know when people say things like...

'They are all as bad as each other'
'They are all in it for themselves'
'I'm not voting for any of them'​
...and so on and so on?

Sometimes people really mean it.  The BNP does not, AFAIK, have a reputation for being a bunch of clean-handed incorruptibles.

Secondly, my hunch is that the media campaign against the BNP has been so intense that it probably has stopped some people voting at all and shifted some other people's votes to other parties, mainly, I'd guess, to UKIP or the English Democrats.


----------



## FreddyB (Jun 8, 2009)

dennisr said:


> We need a serious political alternative - not hoodwinking, not spin, not email and blogging campaigns, not "vote for the less bad who are going to shaft you any way"



Labour released a poll predicting 7 BNP seats a few months ago (can't find a link though) with the purpose of getting their activist base out. They didn't come out, their vote didn't come out. 

The political alternative is the answer, but then the question is. What political alternative is it we're looking for. we could argue to the end of time about that one.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 8, 2009)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> That seems a fair assessment, off those numbers.
> 
> "Considering what they are "??? Facist, or did you have some other meaning to that statement? ie small?


A far right group (fascist in terms of leadership) with the same historial record of never doing anything electorally as the rest of that bunnch. 3 Councillors in the whole 70 year period before Griffin, now 10 years later 50 plus (with many being re-elected) 2nd places all over the shop, a london assmebly member and 2 MEPs - not to mention breaking out of their previous regional marginalisation and developing a serious national profile on the basis of a widespread normalisation of their vote. The dymanic is clear.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jun 8, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> A far right group (fascist in terms of leadership) with the same historial record of never doing anything electorally as the rest of that bunnch. 3 Councillors in the whole 70 year period before Griffin, now 10 years later 50 plus (with many being re-elected) 2nd places all over the shop, a london assmebly member and 2 MEPs - not to mention breaking out of their previous regional marginalisation and developing a serious national profile on the basis of a widespread normalisation of their vote. The dymanic is clear.


yeh yeh, I think it is an important point that, "A far right group (fascist in terms of leadership)".  is important to make that distinction.

Edited to add;
Especially when you're talking to their supporters, and the undecided.


----------



## dennisr (Jun 8, 2009)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> pretty much given up on that.



well, that was the only way to stop them.

giving up on that means its probably best you stop worrying about it and keep your head down or emigrate


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jun 8, 2009)

JHE said:


> You know when people say things like...
> 
> 'They are all as bad as each other'
> 'They are all in it for themselves'
> ...


of course





> The BNP does not, AFAIK, have a reputation for being a bunch of clean-handed incorruptibles.


sorry ,whats the point????



> Secondly, my hunch is that the media campaign against the BNP has been so intense that it probably has stopped some people voting at all and shifted some other people's votes to other parties, mainly, I'd guess, to UKIP or the English Democrats.


I agree.


----------



## JHE (Jun 8, 2009)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> of coursesorry ,whats the point????



What is it you don't understand?  If people really believe all politicians are a bunch of equally bad selfish crooks (and some people do think that), they are not going to vote for the BNP, are they?


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jun 8, 2009)

dennisr said:


> well, that was the only way to stop them.
> 
> giving up on that means its probably best you stop worrying about it and keep your head down or emigrate



ah yes, there's only one way to do anything.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jun 8, 2009)

FreddyB said:


> The political alternative is the answer, but then the question is. What political alternative is it we're looking for. we could argue to the end of time about that one.


 is why i have pretty much give up.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jun 8, 2009)

JHE said:


> What is it you don't understand?  If people really believe all politicians are a bunch of equally bad selfish crooks (and some people do think that), they are not going to vote for the BNP, are they?



ok, i see now.


----------



## dennisr (Jun 8, 2009)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> ah yes, there's only one way to do anything.



We need a political alternative to the issues working people face. The alternative is NO political alternative. 

Why bother with dealing with realities when arguing over how many angels on the head of the pin and pointless insinuation is so much more apealing.

You are never going to change are you.


----------



## dennisr (Jun 8, 2009)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> is why i have pretty much give up.



so you going to become an anarchist rmp3? - that's the usual route, the usual copout


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jun 8, 2009)

dennisr said:


> We need a Political Alternative to the issues working people face. The alternative is NO Political Alternative.
> 
> Why bother with dealing with realities when arguing over how many angels on the head of the pin and pointless insinuation is so much more apealing.
> 
> You are never going to change are you.





dennisr said:


> so you going to become an anarchist rmp3? - that's the usual route, the usual copout


 the reason I have pretty much given up, is because of talking to people like you, and the anarchists.  They just seem like a bunch of bigoted, antisocial, arrogant, twots incapable of coming to an agreement which could produce a political alternative.  If the political alternative does arise, and I certainly hope it does, I doubt you will be involved.  I pin my hopes more on an upturned in working class struggle. 

However, I hope I'm completely wrong, and in the real world you are our lovely person. SWALK


----------



## Stoat Boy (Jun 8, 2009)

I think that a Tory Government could actually be something that helps turns the tide on the BNP.

People get throughly pissed off with Government. Any Government. Now there is no real viable left wing alternative to Labour in this country so with them in power the votes of the disilusioned switch primarily to the parties on the right with the exception of the Greens and not everybody would automatically think of them as being 'socialist', especially not in the BNP heartlands. 

Have a Conservative Government in place for a few years and no doubt the protest votes might go back to Labour, not because they have suddenly become this amazing socialist organisation but simply because they are not in Government and thus escape much of the blame. 

Perhaps a tad simplistic I know but I would be willing to wage money on both the BNP MEP's losing thier jobs come the next Euro election.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jun 8, 2009)

oh, yes, more of a wheelchair socialist/abstentionist these days.  Try to steer clear of it all, but its hard to kill a passion.


----------



## dennisr (Jun 8, 2009)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> However, I hope I'm completely wrong, and in the real world you are our lovely person. SWALK



In the real world you probably are too x


----------



## FreddyB (Jun 8, 2009)

Stoat Boy said:


> Perhaps a tad simplistic I know but I would be willing to wage money on both the BNP MEP's losing thier jobs come the next Euro election.



Don't bet more than you can afford to lose


----------



## elbows (Jun 8, 2009)

no2bickering
no2cynicism

But yes2what? 

The left of all flavours does not currently seem to be well positioned to deal with large events that may occur if there is a critical mass of job losses in the next year or 3. Im expecting that a lot more peoples livelihoods bring ruined will be what ends up turning more of the population back onto politics, and only then will we really catch a glimpse of where we are going.


----------



## dennisr (Jun 8, 2009)

elbows said:


> no2bickering
> no2cynicism
> 
> But yes2what?
> ...



Yep, its a fair point. The only thing that can break the logjam is precisely workers movements coming out of those attacks. And they are going to happen - because folk have no choice in the matter.

In terms of who has already played a key role in all of the recent small disputes - building strikes, car part plant occupations, trade union disputes, even the school occupations - the people who recently stood as no2eu platform are not that badly placed - given the leadership of almost all is represented


----------



## JHE (Jun 8, 2009)

elbows said:


> no2bickering
> no2cynicism
> 
> But yes2what?



Yes 2 txt msg spk?

It's the way to win over the young people.  Maybe.

In the old days, the Millies newspaper, Millitant, has a subtitle:  'Marxist paper for labour and youth'.  It always struck me as a bit stilted, as if it had been translated rather too literally from the original Russian or something.

But now they've got all up to date and txt msgy, I don't know.  I sort of prefer the old way.


----------



## elbows (Jun 8, 2009)

Im old fashioned in that sense, Ive made it to 34 years of age and now feel disconnected from the generations younger than me. I like the pace and depth of TV and movies from the 1970's not the current 3 second attention span stuff.

But I cant ignore the realities. In the event of lots of trouble in the economy, jobs etc, lots more than we've seen so far, it may not matter, the left may be able to win the debate on its own merits. Im not convinced though, in which case the left needs to update its propaganda and its attempts to reach people.

I was envious of how Americans can more easily suspend their disbelief and cynicism and get behind certain election campaigns. The way Howard Dean, Obama and the equivalents on the Right managed to harness the internet for campaigning was interesting but I dont know how to get the same thing this side of the pond, cynicism, the friend of fascism, stands in the way.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jun 8, 2009)

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by butchersapron
> 800 000 to 950 000. Considering what they are i think that's a pretty resonable return with 2 MEPs in the bag. I don't think you can really diminish that by saying that they should have 5 or 6 or whatever because that was never on the cards. They did just about as well as they could reasonably have hoped for - slightly better in fact.
> 
> ...



Sorry to come back to this, but;

Given the fertile ground of anti-immigrant state of mainstream politics for 12 years, and the collapse of mainstream politics, comparing to europe fash in uk, pretty piss poor surely?


----------



## durruti02 (Jun 10, 2009)

from you know who you know where 

"BNP’s “Defining Moment” – Statement by Nick Griffin MEP

June 8, 2009 by BNP News  
Filed under BNP Party News, Regional News

"The election of two British National Party Members of the European Parliament has forever smashed the media lie about the party and is a defining moment in British history, Nick Griffin, MEP has said.

Speaking exclusively to BNP News this morning after a night of election results which saw the party catapult to centre stage in European politics and the world’s media, Mr Griffin said the victory in the face of the most outrageous lies and mass media slurs was tribute to the steadfastness and determination of the voters of Britain.

“Tonight has shown that the mettle of the men and women who created the British Empire, who fought like lions in the furthest corners of the globe, who sacrificed like titans in Flanders, who endured the Blitz and who stormed the beaches of Normandy, is still alive.

“The far left and the Tory types who thought that the British spirit was dead and that they could walk all over 10,000 years of history, tradition, culture and heritage, were wrong. The British lion has awoken, and its roar will now be heard throughout the world,” Mr Griffin said.

The BNP leader said the first priority of the new BNP team in the European parliament was to send its researchers into the archives to dig out the facts about the conglomerates and corporations which have profited from the privatisation theft of Britain’s “common wealth. The dissolution of the institutions and property of the British nation into the hands of the internationalists is the single greatest piece of larceny in our history,” he said.

“The truth of how the ownership of all our national assets ended up in foreign hands is all there, untouched in the archives. None of the parties want to investigate it. The Tories won’t, because they were the ones who starting selling everything off and gutted British industry. Labour won’t because they carried on with the Tory policy. The Lib-Dems won’t because they hardly have any ideas about anything. The Greens won’t, because they don’t know about it, and UKIP won’t because they are just another corrupt Tory front anyway,” Mr Griffin said.

“The BNP will not shirk from this responsibility, and I can assure the public that the scandals which lay waiting to be uncovered will make the claims for bathplugs, porn films and housing allowances in Westminster seem like small potatoes.”

Mr Griffin also said that the BNP’s election victories were directly linked to the Muslim-groom-for-sex scandal which has rocked the North West and Yorkshire in particular.

“The large votes registered for the BNP in core areas like Oldham and Bradford are a desperate cry for help from the indigenous British population, the Sikhs and other communities about the appalling racist violence and endemic problem of racist sex-grooming scandals perpetrated by individuals from within the Muslim community,” he said.

“We now have the mandate to demand action by the police and authorities on this issue. It can no longer be swept under the carpet and ignored like they did with the latest two murders last week of indigenous Britons.”

Mr Griffin said the “enormously enhanced credibility and electability of the BNP would have far-reaching consequences throughout the British body politic. The BBC will no longer have an excuse to bar us from prime political airtime, and the media will find it even harder to spin lies about us. This marks a seismic shift for the BNP, and all the voters who placed their crosses next to the brave BNP candidates all over the country can rest assured we will not waste this opportunity to reverse Britain’s decline.”

Finally, Mr Griffin said, the BNP’s election victory was a stinging defeat for the far left who had poured huge amounts of money into an anti-BNP campaign. “Their failure to stop the BNP will become nothing but an irrelevant footnote to the great historical events of last night,” Mr Griffin said.

“After the disgraceful attacks on members of the public by the far left outside Manchester City Hall last night, I repeat my challenge to Tory leader David Cameron to distance himself from these stormtroopers of the ruling elite, or forever be tarnished by his open association with these thugs who seek to destroy democracy in Britain,” Mr Griffin added."


----------



## durruti02 (Jun 10, 2009)

ditto 

"2009 So Far: Success, Advances and Progress – A Letter from Nick Griffin

June 7, 2009 by BNP News  

Fellow Patriot,

Over the last six months the British National Party has literally been transformed into a mainstream party. The fact is that most people are focussed so much on winning Euro seats that other impressive advances and successes are being overshadowed.

Compared with where we were at Christmas, we are fundamentally a new party altogether. Such a huge range of advances have been achieved in the last six months that it defies belief, and on the eve of the Euro results we lay them out below for you to inspect.

Remember this progress would not have been achieved without the sacrifice, dedication and determination of the tens of thousands of members and supporters that constitute our movement. So on the eve of the Euro poll I wish to extend my sincerest thanks and remember that whatever happens tonight, I am eternally grateful to you all.

Remember that the progress below has been achieved in the face of the most gargantuan media smear and slander campaign in history. This is the first time that we have mounted such a national challenge to the establishment and their response has been hysterical, if not outright panic. Such a torrent of lies, smears, slander, fabrications, distortions and half-truths has never been waged against a legitimate political party in British history. It is an historical first. However, no matter what happens at the polls, this Party is now playing on the world stage.

- During the European Election Campaign in 2004, we had a total of 9,000 unique info pack requests. During the Euro Campaign of 2009, we have had roughly 65,000 unique enquiries; so many that we have an enormous backlog of work to get through. These enquiries have been gathered and databased using our new cutting-edge IT systems and will be transformed into new members, donors and supporters over the next few weeks and months.

- The British National Party now has 30 full-time staff working in a whole range of areas such as administration, databasing, fundraising, web construction, design, IT, and two full time accountants as well as many more fields of expertise. This compares favourably with the Euro Election in 2004 when we had only 5 people working for the Party.

- Until several months ago the BNP was always a “virtual party” with no offices or headquarters whatsoever. Now we have four such premises. We have a design studio, an administration centre with full-time call centre and accountancy department, a political headquarters and a dispatch depot. The BNP is no longer a “virtual party” but has a fixed presence with a large number of specialist full-time staff who run the internal departments of the BNP to industry-standards, regulated by a world-renowned management specialist.

- The growth in membership of the Party has been enormous. In the last six months since January 2009 we have had approx 3,500 new members join up. This is the largest single rush of new members in our long history as a Party (and on the back of the leaked membership list drama). Our membership department estimates that at the present rate by the end of the year we may well double our membership, making us one of Britain’s largest political parties.

- In the whole of 2007 the BNP raised a total of £500,000. In the first five months of 2009 we have raised over £650,000. We are on target to TREBLE our 2007 turnover this year, testament to the huge growth of the BNP and the increased professionalism of our fundraising department. To put things in perspective, we have spent more in total on our Euro Election Campaign 2009 than on all the previous election campaigns combined — a staggering achievement. So far this year our electronic email fundraising campaigns alone have raised approximately £100,000. So far in 2009 our e-fundraising department has sent out approximately 2 million emails, 700,000 in May alone. Thanks to the huge output of literature in our Euro Election Campaign, our central fundraising database has grown from a mere 19,000 to approximately 70,000 — which means that the funds available to the BNP to grow, increase efficiency, campaign and fight elections will multiply enormously over the next six months.

- The BNP is the proud operator of Britain’s most effective political call centre, which is bringing back into membership on average some 40-50 lapsed members per day, a huge number taking out Gold memberships. Our dedicated call centre, run by a professional customer care manager and staffed by party members, is raising the Party on average some £1,400 per day (roughly equating to 360,000 per year of extra funds for the Party).

- One of the most significant advances this year has been capturing three county council seats on June 4th. This is a tremendous breakthrough for the Party into an entirely new tier of government and gives us a massive boost of credibility. County council seats are huge and immensely hard to win — the local election equivalent of winning a Parliamentary constituency sized seat.

- The BNP has increasingly made its presence felt in local elections throughout the first six months of 2009. In over twenty local by-elections the BNP has averaged approximately 17 percent of the vote — a huge increase on previous years. The local election results, impressive as they are, were capped by the momentous victory in the Swanley by-election in Kent in February — the BNP’s first breakthrough in the South East Region.

- In January the Party launched Operation Fightback in response to regular abuses of our democratic rights by the media and political establishment. A large number of politically correct outrages have been reversed, cultural parades have been reinstated, persecution at the hands of local authorities has been dealt with and reversed, newspapers have scrapped, withdrawn or retracted smear stories and anti-BNP celebrities and other public figures have been held to account for their incitements. Operation Fightback is to be expanded after the Euro Elections to cope with the increased number of attacks on the Party.

Make no mistake, the establishment wouldn’t have bothered attacking so virulently a movement that was irrelevant and impotent. The huge, organised establishment campaign against the BNP is the biggest compliment of all — it proves that we are now a force to be reckoned with, a real nationalist alternative to the liberal-left campaign to destroy our nation. So whatever happens at the polls tonight, there can be no turning back. We are here to stay, and we will struggle to the bitter end to save our beautiful nation and people.

Long live the British People!

Yours sincerely,

Nick Griffin

Chairman, BNP"


----------



## durruti02 (Jun 29, 2009)

interesting ... supporting workfare 

"Originally, benefits were meant as the state’s obligation to support those who genuinely are not in a position to support themselves. This guiding principle must always remain the guiding light for a just and humane system - and it is the core of the British National Party’s welfare policy.

However, decades of Labour and Tory socialist state-induced welfare dependency has utterly distorted this noble ideal. Well-meaning welfare programmes have been exploited, distorted and twisted to become nothing more than a free handout to scroungers, foreign and local. This has in turn created a welfare dependency culture which has led to in excess of six million people living in homes where no one has a job and where benefits are a way of life.

Not only does this cost the taxpayer in excess of £13 billion per year, but it also has a hugely damaging effect upon the psychology of a nation which once led the world in productivity, technological innovation and which gave birth to the Industrial Revolution. This dire situation must be reversed - urgently.

Only the British National Party has the plan to reverse these decades of disastrous Labour and Tory social engineering programmes - through a sensible policy of workfare, not welfare.

The principle is simple: those who receive community support incur obligations as well. People who genuinely want to work must be provided with the opportunity to do so in return for training which will put them back into proper full-time employment.

In return for financial support and training for a new career, the benefit recipient must complete a certain number of hours of work per week. Properly implemented, this policy will undermine the benefit dependency culture and bring masses of unemployed back into the formal employment sector.

Ultimately there must be only one category of welfare recipient: those who genuinely deserve or have earned it. The scrounger entitlement mentality must be discarded. Those who can work but refuse to do so, must face the consequences of their actions on their own.

The success of the “workfare not welfare” policy has been proven: these programmes already exist in Australia, America and even in India. Britain has to get back to work: and workfare provides the only path through which this aim will be achieved."


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## durruti02 (Jun 29, 2009)

new blog h t t p://nickgri ffin.eu/


"Nick Griffin was born in Barnet and grew up in Halesworth in rural Suffolk, England.

Initially educated at two Suffolk private schools, St Felix School (in Southwold) and Woodbridge School, Nick studied history and then law at Downing College, Cambridge and boxed while at Cambridge and was awarded a full blue for representing the University against Oxford three years running, losing the first year on points and winning in the next two with first round stoppages." ffs


----------



## durruti02 (Jun 29, 2009)

you'd have to say this is a disappointment .. 

"Below is the breakdown of the votes in the 39 local authorities that make up the North West Euro Constituency.

Burnley – 3,500 (14.6%)
Tameside – 6,549 (13.2%)
Copeland – 2,572 (12.4%)
Hyndburn – 2,731 (12.2%)
Pendle – 3,610 (12.2%)
Wigan – 7,517 (11.8%)
Oldham – 5,435 (11.6%)
Rochdale – 4,905 (11.1%)
Knowsley – 2,574 (10.7%)
Salford – 4,818 (10.5%)
St. Helens – 3,876 (10.1%)
Blackpool – 3,523 (10.0%)
Rossendale – 1,863 (9.8%)
Halton – 2,104 (9.5%)
Blackburn with Darwen – 3,507 (9.2%)
Allerdale – 2,492 (8.8%)
Bolton – 5,409 (8.8%)
Bury – 3,994 (8.2%)
Manchester – 6,796 (7.6%)
Wyre – 2,628 (7.5%)
Warrington – 3,523 (7.3%)
Barrow in Furness – 1,130 (7.0%)
Carlisle – 2,205 (6.9%)
Liverpool – 5,398 (6.9%)
South Ribble – 2,193 (6.9%)
Preston – 2,377 (6.8%)
Ribble Valley – 1.196 (6.7%)
Chorley – 2,008 (6.5%)
Stockport – 4,407 (6.2%)
Wirral – 4,666 (6.1%)
Cheshire West – 4,785 (5.9%)
West Lancashire – 1,168 (5.6%)
Cheshire East – 5,162 (5.5%)
Fylde – 1,359 (5.4%)
Sefton – 3,232 (5.4%)
Trafford – 2,908 (5.2%)
Eden – 824 (4.9%)
Lancaster – 1,736 (4.6%)
South Lakeland – 1,327 (3.2%)


----------



## JimPage (Jun 30, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> you'd have to say this is a disappointment ..
> 
> "Below is the breakdown of the votes in the 39 local authorities that make up the North West Euro Constituency.
> Burnley – 3,500 (14.6%)
> ...



Comparison to 2004 results below. up from 6 to 13 areas over 10%. 
Below 5% down from 12 to 3 areas

One key here is that in the areas they regualrly stand in elections, they are improving their vote. All in all, a slow, steady increase in vote %- and in these elections it is which matters

However in Rochdale for example, they have done nothing much since 2004 and still increased their vote

Note big increases in Copeland and Knowsley in particular

BURNLEY 5301 (16.5%)
PENDLE 4322 (13.2%)
HYNDBURN 2910 (11.5%)
TAMESIDE 6609 (10.5%)
ROSSENDALE 2383 (10.3%)
OLDHAM 7486 (10.3%)
ROCHDALE 5949 (9.3%)
BLACKBURN & DARWEN 4491 (9.1%)
WIGAN Result 7608 (9.0%)
BURY 5509 (8.3%)
SALFORD  4166 (7.9%)
SOUTH RIBBLE 2291 (7.0%)
RIBBLE VALLEY 1423 (6.8%)
BLACKPOOL  2641 (6.8%)
BOLTON 5427 votes (6.6%)
H ALTON 2170 (6.4%)
PRESTON  2546 (6.2%)
CHORLEY  2339 (6.0%)
ST HELENS 4047 (5.8%)
COPELAND  1148 (5.7%)
WYRE 2153 (5.7%)
KNOWSLEY 2005 (5.6%)
CREWE: 2136 (5.4%)
STOCKPORT 5093 (5.4%)
CARLISLE 1772 (5.2%)
VALE ROYAL 2073 (5.2%)
WARRINGTON  3230 (5.2%)
CONGLETON 1749 (5.1%)
ELLESMERE 1355 (5.1%)
ALLERDALE 1381 (5%)
MANCHESTER  5380 (5.0%)
FYLDE 1264 (4.7%)
TRAFFORD Result 3235 (4.5%)
SEFTON 3911 (4.4%)
WIRRAL 4665 (4.4%)
WEST LANCS 1560 (4.3%)
LANCASTER 1751 (4.2%)
LIVERPOOL 4611 (4.1%)
BARROW 869 (4.1%)
MACCLESFIELD 2153 (3.6%) 
EDEN:  546 (3.1%) 
CHESTER 1211 (2.7%)
SOUTH LAKELAND 1137 (2.7%)


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 30, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> you'd have to say this is a disappointment ..
> 
> "Below is the breakdown of the votes in the 39 local authorities that make up the North West Euro Constituency.
> 
> <<snip>>




Dissapointed in that they didn't do better in some of those areas yes, but more than compensated for by the actual result, the fact that their vote held up without the  postal ballot of last time and that their better votes tended to be in the larger/more heavily populated areas, so potential room to expand into. And by the national picture of course.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 30, 2009)

Some passing yest relavent news from the French brothers and sisters:



> The French political establishment scrambled yesterday to try to block a significant electoral breakthrough by the daughter of the veteran far-right leader Jean-Marie Le Pen.
> 
> Marine Le Pen, 40, and her running-mate topped the poll on Sunday night's municipal by-election in Hénin-Beaumont, an impoverished former coal mining town near Lens in the Pas de Calais. Having won nearly 40 per cent of the votes cast in the first round, the Le Pens' National Front party is in a strong position to capture its first town hall for seven years in the run-off ballot this Sunday. It would be the first time that the ultra-nationalist, anti-immigrant, anti-European party has taken control of a town council in the depressed industrial areas of northern France.





> Hénin-Beaumont, whose last coal mine shut in 1970, closely resembles the areas of Lancashire and Yorkshire where the British National Party, which has links to the French National Front, scored well in the European elections.



(Here we go with the Defend Sarkozy! slogans)


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## JimPage (Jun 30, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> Some passing yest relavent news from the French brothers and sisters:
> 
> (Here we go with the Defend Sarkozy! slogans)



In my best franglais.....

Votez pour le burka-abolisher je non le fasciste.....


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## TremulousTetra (Jun 30, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> Some passing yest relavent news from the French brothers and sisters:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Vote for the crook, not the fascist?

Vote for the crooks, not the fascists?


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## Fedayn (Jun 30, 2009)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> Vote for the crooks, not the fascists



The above was pretty much UAF/Searchlight/HnH strategy during the recent elections.


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## The39thStep (Jun 30, 2009)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> Sorry to come back to this, but;
> 
> Given the fertile ground of anti-immigrant state of mainstream politics for 12 years, and the collapse of mainstream politics, comparing to europe fash in uk, pretty piss poor surely?




The same anti immigrant politics that have meant massive youth unemployment and neets  whilst at the same time  encouraging labour from Eastern Europe  to fill 'the skills shortage'? Or the same anti immigrant politics that have meant in many cases that working class areas have not had sufficuent resources to cope with housing, health and educational need? Or the same anti immigration polictics that have left many many working class people that there is one rule for them and one rule for otrhers?

Of course the media have had a field day on anti muslim propganda and immigration but actually its the New Labour multi culturalist agenda at the expense of class and their committment to globalisation and the market which has been the key driver.


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## JimPage (Jul 1, 2009)

http://indemgroup.eu/32/news/556/?tx_ttnews[backPid]=1&cHash=913b16272c

Liga Nord and UKIP have formally joined up in the European parliament, so now unlikely the Euronationalist right will have eniough members to form a group. Mnay open racists among the UKIP group, but only soft fascists

Denmark: Dansk Folkeparti, 2 MEPs 
Finland: True Finns, 1 MEP 
France: Libertas (Mouvement pour la France), 1 MEP 
Greece: LAOS, 2 MEPs 
Italy: Lega Nord, 9 MEPs 
Netherlands: Staatkundig Gereformeerde Partij, 1 MEP 
Slovakia: Slovenská národná strana, 1 MEP 
United Kingdom: UKIP, 13 MEPs


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## durruti02 (Jul 1, 2009)

jim, griffin is boasting of their euro alliance and saying it will be publicised on July 14th


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## Sue (Jul 2, 2009)

I was living in France when Le Pen got through to the second round of the presidential elections. A lot of people who hated Chirac felt compelled to vote for him because they felt Le Pen was even worse. But, to show how they really felt, people were (allegedly) voting while wearing gloves in a symbolic gesture of not sullying their hands. Others were walking into polling stations backwards to show the backward movement of politics. Or something. All very French anyway...


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## Sue (Jul 2, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> jim, griffin is boasting of their euro alliance and saying it will be publicised on July 14th



Bastille Day.


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## durruti02 (Jul 2, 2009)

Sue said:


> Bastille Day.


 ah ha, mais oui, d'accord, bien sur, tres drole de monsieur griffin etc!


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## JHE (Jul 2, 2009)

Sue said:


> I was living in France when Le Pen got through to the second round of the presidential elections. A lot of people who hated Chirac felt compelled to vote for him because they felt Le Pen was even worse. But, to show how they really felt, people were (allegedly) voting while wearing gloves in a symbolic gesture of not sullying their hands. Others were walking into polling stations backwards to show the backward movement of politics. Or something. All very French anyway...



Well, it's better than holding up signs saying 'Snot in my name!' or whatever it is.

...or do they do that in France, too?


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## JHE (Jul 2, 2009)

They do, the bastards.

*A French revolutionary declaring snot in his name*


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## Pickman's model (Jul 2, 2009)

Sue said:


> Bastille Day.


yeh. well, they're obviously busy elsewhere on the 12th.


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## butchersapron (Jul 5, 2009)

Maetin Smith Druivel on the BNP in the latest ISJ - i was wonderriong where these arguments had suddenly appeared the last few weeks. I give a tenor of it with this quote:



> Despite the BNP’s success at the polls it still only has 3,000 members



The rest of the argument is empty, oddly ahistorical history and please, let's do more of the same - let's pretend it's 1930 again. I don't know how to talk to these arguments anymore. It's become clear that reality takes second place to theory and the opp to pose as anti-fascists (for the good of the party)

There's more sense in a 500 word post on here than this 15 000 word bullshit.


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## sonny61 (Jul 5, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> Maetin Smith Druivel on the BNP in the latest ISJ - i was wonderriong where these arguments had suddenly appeared the last few weeks. I give a tenor of it with this quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



He says he still has a skateboarders badge against the BNP? Something like that.
 His views are of a 15 year old skateboarder.

I love this gem:
''It is a mass movement of the petty bourgeoisie—shopkeepers, doctors, low-level officials, foreman and the self-employed''

I thought  they were all ''knuckle draggers'' and ''chavs''?
I wonder what the occupations of SWP members are?
First year white middle class students for one.

Typical SWP outdated type article.


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## butchersapron (Jul 5, 2009)

Can anyone find this quote re the first wildcats:



> Tony Woodley, the joint secretary of the Unite union, told reporters, “The British National Party are seriously and sizably involved, infiltrating meetings and posing as organisers”.43



Note 43 says Financial Times, 5 February 2009.


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## Louis MacNeice (Jul 6, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> Can anyone find this quote re the first wildcats:
> 
> 
> 
> Note 43 says Financial Times, 5 February 2009.



http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/2e90f8c6-f2dc-11dd-abe6-0000779fd2ac.html?nclick_check=1

There you go BA.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


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## Louis MacNeice (Jul 6, 2009)

This is a response from the Socialist Party:

...To suit this purpose [to paraphrase _having a go at the Socialist Party_], Martin Smith, the author of the SWP pamphlet, exaggerated the presence of the British National Party (BNP) in the Lindsey dispute in an article in Socialist Review.

He wrote: "You don't have to take my word for it - Tony Woodley, the joint secretary of Unite union, told the Financial Times 'The British National Party are seriously and sizeably involved'". Since when have the words of Woodley been gospel, a 'leader' who has not organised the might of his union in support of the Lindsey or Visteon workers, and who has kept his own distance from their struggles?

The racist BNP did attempt to intervene in the construction strikes but they were ignored or chased off the picket lines. If it had been left up to Martin Smith and his party then indeed the BNP might have been able to make some headway, but the conscious intervention of the Socialist Party and other left trade unionists elevated the need for workers' solidarity in struggle, and that is what came to the fore.

The SWP leaflet given out on the Lindsey picket line said: 'Those who support this strike are playing with fire'. What could this mean, except 'don't support the strike'? Yes, unfortunately they got it wrong, and all that they say now is a result of their wrong position from the beginning.​
Cheers - Louis MacNeice


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## butchersapron (Jul 6, 2009)

Cheers Louis, yets another case of taking the bosses word rather than actual w/c experience.  A united front of Tony Woodley and the FT. I think i need a shower.


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## butchersapron (Jul 6, 2009)

That really is a genuinely poor piece from Smith though. The relative weight given to today as compared with the 1930s and the 70s is very telling.


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## Random (Jul 6, 2009)

At least one of the editors in the FT is a SWPer, can't remember his name right now though


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## Jeff Robinson (Jul 9, 2009)

Griffin advocates sinking ships from sub-Saharan Africa:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8141069.stm

This is a view shared by the racist Lega Nord who have formed an alliance with UKIP and other hard right trash. The Euro Parliament is absolutely infested with the lowest forms of life on the planet - the scum that occupy it are for the most part only of any use for wiping shit off the soles of your boots onto. 

A tiny victory of sorts: looks like Griffin and Brons have failed to become part of a grouping in the EU Parliament, meaning less financial support. Is this the best we can hope for in these times of post democratic populism?


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## krtek a houby (Jul 9, 2009)

Who on Earth can take them seriously with the kinda bobbins Griffin spews out?


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Jul 9, 2009)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Griffin advocates sinking ships from sub-Saharan Africa:
> 
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8141069.stm
> 
> ...


i read this this afternoon and it made me lol - its why "no platform" doesn't necessarily represent the best approach to the fuckos cos let them spout their opinions and most people can see them for the fools they are tbf.


----------



## JHE (Jul 10, 2009)

Jeff Robinson said:


> ...these times of post democratic populism...



These times of post-democratic populism...?  What the fuck does that mean?


----------



## durruti02 (Jul 10, 2009)

jer said:


> Who on Earth can take them seriously with the kinda bobbins Griffin spews out?


 the million who already voted for him and millions who will sympathise with that POV .. sadly  .. just look at Berlusconi .. the UK left and liberals simply can not understand why this sleezy, neo fascist,  idiot,  whatever is so popular in Italy .. every election people assume he will get smashed and he does not ... these views are sadly not unpopular and will probably bceome MORE popular as unemployment rises .. i can imagine millions of brits and millions more italians and other europeans agreeing wholeheartedly with him


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## audiotech (Jul 10, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> the million who already voted for him and millions who will sympathise with that POV .. sadly .. just look at Berlusconi .. the UK left and liberals simply can not understand why this sleezy, neo fascist, idiot, whatever is so popular in Italy .. every election people assume he will get smashed and he does not ... these views are sadly not unpopular and will probably bceome MORE popular as unemployment rises .. i can imagine millions of brits and millions more italians and other europeans agreeing wholeheartedly with him


 
One fault in your argument durruti02, Berlusconi is no 'neo-fascist'. 'Idiot' maybe?


----------



## durruti02 (Jul 10, 2009)

MC5 said:


> One fault in your argument durruti02, Berlusconi is no 'neo-fascist'. 'Idiot' maybe?


 he is not too far away and surrounds himself with those who are .. and yet him and his crew keeps getting elected


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## butchersapron (Jul 10, 2009)

MC5 said:


> One fault in your argument durruti02, Berlusconi is no 'neo-fascist'. 'Idiot' maybe?



Irelevant 'point' - he introduces race based legislation etc and has popular support. Griffin argues the same sort of race based-populism and picks up support. Fro example -this sink their boatrs stuff - he _deliberately_ said that so that shocked liberals like you would pick up on it and spread it around. That shit doesn't do them any harm amongst potential supporters - those already opposed pick up on it though. You don;t know what's going on. Stick to just linking to luaf updates. None today btw?


----------



## audiotech (Jul 10, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> Irelevant 'point' - he introduces race based legislation etc and has popular support. Griffin argues the same sort of race based-populism and picks up support. Fro example -this sink their boatrs stuff - he _deliberately_ said that so that shocked liberals like you would pick up on it and spread it around. That shit doesn't do them any harm amongst potential supporters - those already opposed pick up on it though. You don;t know what's going on. Stick to just linking to luaf updates. None today btw?


 
I know Berlusconi is not a neo-fascist and it is relevant to point this out when someone describes him as such.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jul 10, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> Irelevant 'point' - he introduces race based legislation etc and has popular support. Griffin argues the same sort of race based-populism and picks up support. Fro example -this sink their boatrs stuff - he _deliberately_ said that so that shocked liberals like you would pick up on it and spread it around. That shit doesn't do them any harm amongst potential supporters - those already opposed pick up on it though. You don;t know what's going on. Stick to just linking to luaf updates. None today btw?


I think THAT is the UAF tactic.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 10, 2009)

What is? Mobilise those that you don't need to mobilise? Get in amongst those who are on your side already? Yeah, i think you're right. It is.


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## butchersapron (Jul 10, 2009)

MC5 said:


> I know Berlusconi is not a neo-fascist and it is relevant to point this out when someone describes him as such.


No it's not, not when the point is elsewhere. It's obfuscatory guff.


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## Stoat Boy (Jul 10, 2009)

I was a bit puzzled about the 'sinking boats' interview in that I could not quite work out which audience he was aiming it at and I did wonder if this was some sort of attempt at garnering support amongst some of the other far-right parties in Europe now that the Lega Nord have thrown their hats in, so to speak, with UKIP.

Which Italian Party does Fiore represent ?


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 10, 2009)

Why have you mentioned Fiore? The comment was designed for domestic consumption.


----------



## frogwoman (Jul 10, 2009)

MC5 said:


> One fault in your argument durruti02, Berlusconi is no 'neo-fascist'. 'Idiot' maybe?



I wouldnt be too sure


----------



## frogwoman (Jul 10, 2009)

MC5 said:


> I know Berlusconi is not a neo-fascist



i know others who think diffreently. why is it so hard to believe, why is "fasicsm" only deemend to apply to fascism in its classic garb? the shit he and his supporters are doing is what the bnp have been trying to GET AWAY from


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 10, 2009)

He was probably arguing the same a few months back. Not the important point though.


----------



## audiotech (Jul 10, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> No it's not, not when the point is elsewhere. It's obfuscatory guff.


 
Just because you think it's a superlative to the discussion doesn't mean others on here will.


----------



## frogwoman (Jul 10, 2009)

i know 

Why is berlusconi who has actually introduced/proposed racially based laws deemed not to be a fash and yet the bnp who have not come close to suggesting some of the shit berluscioni and his cronies have actually DONE are suddenly worse than hitler or something? 

im not saying the bnp aren't fash btw, neo or otherwise - but why this constant emphasis on them being worse than the rest of the European far right when those (like berlusconi) are the actual dangerous one,s the ones in positions of power and so on??? 

fucks sake. someone needs a reality check


----------



## audiotech (Jul 10, 2009)

frogwoman said:


> i know others who think diffreently. why is it so hard to believe, why is "fasicsm" only deemend to apply to fascism in its classic garb? the shit he and his supporters are doing is what the bnp have been trying to GET AWAY from


 
Elaborate?

Edit: I see you have, specifically then?


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## frogwoman (Jul 10, 2009)

ID cards for gypsies (and later for everyone) 

Segregated trains/buses - according to one source i read there is actually a bus line in the south of italy that does this 

Actual walled "ghettos" for immigrants and deportation of asylum seekers *before* their claims are processed ie to Libya recently 


That fucking creepy "National Guard" uniform/symbol and the fact that these patrols of what are basically armed thugs have now been given official status and have some police powers - including powers to be police informers etc thus making a whole network of police informers ready to follow people, and also to intimidate/make some "arrests" 

The fact that Berlusconi owns most, ig not all, of the media and there is somewhat of a "cult of personality" around him 

The fact that known fascistrs are in positions of power (ie Rome mayor etc) and openly giving fascist salutes etc 

There is probably a lot more and more important examples going on but those are off the top of my head, the BNP have been very careful to get away from this type of stuff and play the "we are not fascists" card


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## audiotech (Jul 10, 2009)

frogwoman said:


> ID cards for gypsies (and later for everyone)
> 
> Segregated trains/buses - according to one source i read there is actually a bus line in the south of italy that does this
> 
> ...


 
I would agree that there are growing similarities between the far-right in Italy and Berlusconi's People of Freedom party, as he alway's hunting for the fascist vote.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 10, 2009)

MC5 said:


> I would agree that there are growing similarities between the far-right in Italy and Berlusconi's People of Freedom party, as he alway's hunting for the fascist vote.


from his repeated election, he doesn't seem to have to hunt too hard


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## durruti02 (Jul 10, 2009)

so my point stands .. while liberals and elements of the left will throw their hands up in horror .. actually this calculated comment is said in the full understanding that many will agree with it .. how many of us are involved, speaking to , working with the people who this comment was aimed at ..


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## Silver_Fox (Jul 10, 2009)

http://www.javno.com/en-world/separate-bus-for-migrants-prompts-outrage-in-italy_248378

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/may/08/italy-segregated-public-transport-proposal

I don't think what Griffin said will come as much of a surprise. They are a party that openly say they want to chuck all non-whites out of the country.

Just keep calling them racist and fascist isn't going to change anything. A pro-working class alternative is needed. Sadly every attempt so far seems set in sectarianism and a bubble world.


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## frogwoman (Jul 10, 2009)

Silver_Fox said:


> http://www.javno.com/en-world/separate-bus-for-migrants-prompts-outrage-in-italy_248378
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/may/08/italy-segregated-public-transport-proposal
> 
> ...



yep.bears shit in woods shocker


----------



## Stoat Boy (Jul 10, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> Why have you mentioned Fiore? The comment was designed for domestic consumption.




Just wondered. I dont see why it would be for domestic consumption. The whole issue of people trying to get into Europe via the boats in question is something that primarily affects Italy and Spain. 

We aint got people turning up on English beaches. 

I was just puzzled as to why he made such obviously crass comments. They seem to be at odds with the whole attempt to make the BNP 'civilised' because they are so blatent.

I mentioned Fiore because I know him and Griffin have been close in the past and wondered what sort of influence Fiore might have on the Lega Nord, whom Griffin, as I understand things, has been trying to cosy up with.


----------



## frogwoman (Jul 10, 2009)

MC5 said:


> I would agree that there are growing similarities between the far-right in Italy and Berlusconi's People of Freedom party, as he alway's hunting for the fascist vote.



Why the problem with labelling him fash then?

and at the same time making nick griffin (who has not suggested most of the things B. has ACTUALLY IMPLEMENTED) out to be Hitler mark II? 

this hysterical "anti-fascism" has been tried and failed


----------



## audiotech (Jul 10, 2009)

frogwoman said:


> Why the problem with labelling him fash then?
> 
> and at the same time making nick griffin (who has not suggested most of the things B. has ACTUALLY IMPLEMENTED) out to be Hitler mark II?
> 
> this hysterical "anti-fascism" has been tried and failed


 
The BNP and the NF before it, don't like the nazi, or fascist tag. It's one tactic that has had a beneficial effect before, but this time appears not to be as successful, partly because of the success of the BNP spending time and resources trying to deny it.

Nevertheless, the time and resources spent denying it by the BNP still has an effect on their other activities, so important not to ditch this aspect of anti-fascism entirely and it does still effect there more softer supporters.

Burlusconi is an opportunist and it's clear will form coalitions with the most nasty of the right to stay in power, but he's no fascist?


----------



## frogwoman (Jul 10, 2009)

"fascist" is such a misunderstood word that any small political party without a measure of consolidated support would want to discredit that label 

even stuff like the greensand "environmental fascism"

there's pletny of stuff about them "not being racist" on the bnp website followed by actual racism but i don't see the same effort being put into denying accusations of fascism that there was in the past 

because there is a decreasing (albeit still signioficant) need for them to do so any more 

many of berlusconi's supporters and people in the governing party do not even deny the fact they are fascists at all and even state so explicityl


----------



## Rod Sleeves (Jul 10, 2009)

frogwoman said:


> many of berlusconi's supporters and people in the governing party do not even deny the fact they are fascists at all and even state so explicityl



Do they? 

Not that I disagree with you entirely, I think the Italian government is as close to fascist as you can get in the EU at the moment, and that it's existence serves to normalise fascism through out Europe. It's far worse than what the BNP can possibly hope to accomplish any time soon.


----------



## tbaldwin (Jul 10, 2009)

MC5 said:


> The BNP and the NF before it, don't like the nazi, or fascist tag. It's one tactic that has had a beneficial effect before, but this time appears not to be as successful, partly because of the success of the BNP spending time and resources trying to deny it.
> 
> Nevertheless, the time and resources spent denying it by the BNP still has an effect on their other activities, so important not to ditch this aspect of anti-fascism entirely and it does still effect there more softer supporters.
> 
> Burlusconi is an opportunist and it's clear will form coalitions with the most nasty of the right to stay in power, but he's no fascist?




I agree with you mostly about this MC.....I think that its important to tell people the things the BNP leadership would rather they did not know.
One of the main things is their nazi links.
I think its really important because the BNPs views on immigration and crime are held by millions of people in this country who are fed up with Liberal policies that clearly dont work.
The only thing stopping the BNP is there racist and nazi views being exposed.


----------



## frogwoman (Jul 10, 2009)

Rod Sleeves said:


> Do they?
> 
> Not that I disagree with you entirely, I think the Italian government is as close to fascist as you can get in the EU at the moment, and that it's existence serves to normalise fascism through out Europe. It's far worse than what the BNP can possibly hope to accomplish any time soon.



Yeah - I'll try and dig up a few links in a bit x


----------



## Stoat Boy (Jul 10, 2009)

Rod Sleeves said:


> Do they?
> 
> Not that I disagree with you entirely, I think the Italian government is as close to fascist as you can get in the EU at the moment, and that it's existence serves to normalise fascism through out Europe. It's far worse than what the BNP can possibly hope to accomplish any time soon.




Which is why I dont understand the 'sink the boats' comment being for the domestic market here in the UK. Makes no sense because the only boats we have bringing in illegal immigrants are the Cross Channel Ferrys and even the most bug-eyed BNP loon would baulk at sinking one of those because it might have a few daft Albanians clinging to the underside of a Lorry.

But if Griffin is trying to cosy up with the Italian right, well its the sort of thing they want to hear. 

Did his comments make any other nations news reports ?


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 10, 2009)

You're mising the point - it's not a stategy document, it's something designed to be reported as a shocking statement - but one that some people agree with, it's there to reinforce and extend the BNP's reach to these people. The right and wrong of it is neither here not there.


----------



## audiotech (Jul 10, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> You're mising the point - it's not a stategy document, it's something designed to be reported as a shocking statement - but one that some people agree with, it's there to reinforce and extend the BNP's reach to these people. The right and wrong of it is neither here not there.


 
Won't it put more people off, incuding the softer elements already in the orbit of BNP land?


----------



## frogwoman (Jul 10, 2009)

Rod Sleeves said:


> Do they?
> 
> Not that I disagree with you entirely, I think the Italian government is as close to fascist as you can get in the EU at the moment, and that it's existence serves to normalise fascism through out Europe. It's far worse than what the BNP can possibly hope to accomplish any time soon.



Yeah - I'll try and dig up a few links in a bit x 


http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0912-05.htm

"funny" at the time but in the lights of recent events ends up looking downright sinister 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/apr/30/italy

Berlusconi suggested "we are the new phalange"(!!!) 
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1915484/Romes-new-mayor-promises-purge-of-migrants.html

http://www.inteldaily.com/?c=172&a=8215

http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2008/08/04/is_italy_going_fascist

http://www.reuters.com/article/inDepthNews/idUSL0485372220080408


And so on ...


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## frogwoman (Jul 10, 2009)

ill try and fidn more later x dont really have time for this now tbh


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 10, 2009)

MC5 said:


> Won't it put more people off, incuding the softer elements already in the orbit of BNP land?



Yeah, it will, that 's why exposing it and other examples have done just that over the last decade. It's a winning strategy. And i, for one, am glad to see you plugging away at it.


----------



## audiotech (Jul 10, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> Yeah, it will, that 's why exposing it and other examples have done just that over the last decade. It's a winning strategy. And i, for one, am glad to see you plugging away at it.


 
So you think the latest from Griffin won't put people off and it's designed to gather the BNP more support?


----------



## Stoat Boy (Jul 10, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> Yeah, it will, that 's why exposing it and other examples have done just that over the last decade. It's a winning strategy. And i, for one, am glad to see you plugging away at it.





But the thing is that a policy of sinking ships is OTT. And cannot play well with a lot of people who have switched to the BNP.

And its hardly 'exposing' it. Griffin seemed more than happy to give the interview and must have known that it would sound terrible to a domestic audience. Just makes no sense.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 10, 2009)

MC5 said:


> So you think the latest from Griffin won't put people off and it's designed to gather the BNP more support?



That's what i just argued.


----------



## Rod Sleeves (Jul 10, 2009)

frogwoman said:


> ill try and fidn more later x dont really have time for this now tbh



Fair enough I think that's plenty to back up your argument.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 10, 2009)

Stoat Boy said:


> But the thing is that a policy of sinking ships is OTT. And cannot play well with a lot of people who have switched to the BNP.
> 
> And its hardly 'exposing' it. Griffin seemed more than happy to give the interview and must have known that it would sound terrible to a domestic audience. Just makes no sense.



Who gives a fuck if it's OTT? Sinking ships is exactly the rhetorical crap that BNP voters love. It won't sit well with tories like you and liberals like MC5. It's not designed to. The practicalities of sinking boat is neither here nor there.

It won't make sense if you're Cameron to say thse things, but if your appeal is that you're _not_ Cameron...then it does. It makes perfect sense.


----------



## Stoat Boy (Jul 10, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> Who gives a fuck if it's OTT? Sinking ships is exactly the rhetorical crap that BNP voters love. It won't sit well with tories like you and liberals like MC5. It's not designed to. The practicalities of sinking boat is neither here nor there.
> 
> It won't make sense if you're Cameron to say thse things, but if your appeal is that you're _not_ Cameron...then it does. It makes perfect sense.



But if you think sinking ships full of illegal immigrants is smashing chances are you are voting BNP already. 

I guess you could argue that it might attract a few loons who thought the BNP had gone a bit gay but I would argue that its more likely to drive away more supporters.


----------



## audiotech (Jul 10, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> That's what i just argued.


 
OK, but surely this will only attract those the BNP wants to distance themselves from and alienate those he needs to attract to move forward?


----------



## audiotech (Jul 10, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> Who gives a fuck if it's OTT? Sinking ships is exactly the rhetorical crap that BNP voters love. It won't sit well with tories like you and liberals like MC5. It's not designed to. The practicalities of sinking boat is neither here nor there.
> 
> It won't make sense if you're Cameron to say thse things, but if your appeal is that you're _not_ Cameron...then it does. It makes perfect sense.


 
Please, I'm no liberal, so stop the wind-up crap eh?


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 10, 2009)

Stoat Boy said:


> But if you think sinking ships full of illegal immigrants is smashing chances are you are voting BNP already.
> 
> I guess you could argue that it might attract a few loons who thought the BNP had gone a bit gay but I would argue that its more likely to drive away more supporters.



You probably are yes (you don't think they've reached the limit of who they can appeal to do you?) - and this would reinforce hat and the idea that BNP one elected didn't bottle out of arguing their politics.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 10, 2009)

MC5 said:


> OK, but surely this will only attract those the BNP wants to distance themselves from and alienate those he needs to attract to move forward?



You've just spent the last week arguing that there''s no difference between the two groups - that they're joined at the hip. Get some consistency if you want to taken seriously.

It's simple - he says something outrageous, liberals like you spread it around - the fact that it's liberals like you is actually very important. Those who are ready to hear that rhetorical crap get to. They've got another little thing in their outlook that says here's someone thinking like them. The identification with the BNP is hammered home.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 10, 2009)

they should be on the bnp payroll


----------



## Stoat Boy (Jul 10, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> You probably are yes (you don't think they've reached the limit of who they can appeal to do you?) - and this would reinforce hat and the idea that BNP one elected didn't bottle out of arguing their politics.




In terms of reaching the limit of who they might appeal to then no, you are right but this notion of sinking boat loads of illegal immigrants is refering specifically to something that is an Italian or Spanish problem. Its just not going to play well to a British audience who might be on the cusp of switching to the BNP. I dont think anybody would watch that and then decide to give the BNP their support. 

I usually agree with your views on why the tactics against the BNP have been wrong but on this one I cannot help but think that this interview with Griffin can not have done the BNP domestically any good at all and am just trying to work out the logic of it.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jul 10, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> What is? Mobilise those that you don't need to mobilise? Get in amongst those who are on your side already? Yeah, i think you're right. It is.


yup!  You get it at last.


----------



## frogwoman (Jul 10, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> You've just spent the last week arguing that there''s no difference between the two groups - that they're joined at the hip. Get some consistency if you want to taken seriously.
> 
> It's simple - he says something outrageous liberals like you spread it around - the fact that *it's liberals like you is actually very important *- those who are ready to hear that rhetorical crap get to. They'e got another little thing in their outlook that says here's someone thinking like them. The identification with the BNP is hammered home.



Yep and the people who spread it around are going to be the ones resented for it, not the BNP themselves


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jul 10, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> Yeah, it will, that 's why exposing it and other examples have done just that over the last decade. It's a winning strategy. And i, for one, am glad to see you plugging away at it.


 prove to me they wouldn't have more support, if this had not been done.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 10, 2009)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> yup!  You get it at last.



Your anti-fascist majority you mean? The worthless pro-status quo anti-fascist majority we have right now that produces fascism? Defend sarkozy, defend brown defend _our_ system!


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 10, 2009)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> prove to me they wouldn't have more support, if this had not been done.



They might have had 12 MEPs. You're right.


----------



## Stoat Boy (Jul 10, 2009)

frogwoman said:


> Yep and the people who spread it around are going to be the ones resented for it, not the BNP themselves




I disagree. This idea of sinking boats has not been filmed by an undercover documentary team or had Search Light parading it as thier latest front cover.

Griffin gave an interview and deliberately bought the subject up. It was blatent and for anybody to listen to. 

And I dont see how it plays in with the BNP trying to present themselves as reasonable alternative. Zero logic in it. 

Perhaps its because I know of people who have considered voting BNP and its just not the sort of thing that would go down well with them because they tend to think of themselves as patriots, not murderers.


----------



## frogwoman (Jul 10, 2009)

fair do's. i didn't hear the interview so cant really comment tbh


----------



## Rod Sleeves (Jul 10, 2009)

Stoat Boy said:


> In terms of reaching the limit of who they might appeal to then no, you are right but this notion of sinking boat loads of illegal immigrants is refering specifically to something that is an Italian or Spanish problem. Its just not going to play well to a British audience who might be on the cusp of switching to the BNP. I dont think anybody would watch that and then decide to give the BNP their support.
> 
> I usually agree with your views on why the tactics against the BNP have been wrong but on this one I cannot help but think that this interview with Griffin can not have done the BNP domestically any good at all and am just trying to work out the logic of it.



Plenty of people out there make sick (half serious) jokes about machine gunning all the africans or whatever, most currently probably don't bother voting.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 10, 2009)

Stoat Boy said:


> In terms of reaching the limit of who they might appeal to then no, you are right but this notion of sinking boat loads of illegal immigrants is refering specifically to something that is an Italian or Spanish problem. Its just not going to play well to a British audience who might be on the cusp of switching to the BNP. I dont think anybody would watch that and then decide to give the BNP their support.
> 
> I usually agree with your views on why the tactics against the BNP have been wrong but on this one I cannot help but think that this interview with Griffin can not have done the BNP domestically any good at all and am just trying to work out the logic of it.



This is exactly the point though - its pitched outside the trad right like you. It's not aimed at you. You're not supposed to like it.


----------



## tbaldwin (Jul 10, 2009)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> prove to me they wouldn't have more support, if this had not been done.



That is the question for me too.
I think the ANL UAF ARA AFA etc etc made many mistakes but calling the BNP nazis was not a mistake. Some of the propaganda was a waste of time and counter productive. But now what is that will stop the BNP gaining more members and voters? I think the BNP are their own worst enemies luckily...


----------



## audiotech (Jul 10, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> You've just spent the last week arguing that there''s no difference between the two groups - that they're joined at the hip. Get some consistency if you want to taken seriously.
> 
> It's simple - he says something outrageous liberals like you spread it around - the fact that it's liberals like you is actually very important - those who are ready to hear that rhetorical crap get to. They'e got another little thing in their outlook that says here's someone thinking like them. The identification with the BNP is hammered home.


 
I said there was a connection between the two groups and Barnes recently has tried to develop it. Although I've heard that Barnes has recently been paid off for allegedly refusing to handle an "acquired" UKIP membership list to assist in the garnering of money and votes? How true this is is anyones guess?

Me posting up on here Griffin's latest is not really spreading it around though, but other bigger fish are doing just that and not just 'liberals' either.


----------



## durruti02 (Jul 10, 2009)

Stoat Boy said:


> But the thing is that a policy of sinking ships is OTT. And cannot play well with a lot of people who have switched to the BNP.



disagree .. it's a vote winner .. and he said they could have life rafts .. sorry i can hear pubs and golf clubs full of blokes going 'too fucking right sink them '


----------



## tbaldwin (Jul 10, 2009)

Stoat Boy said:


> I disagree. This idea of sinking boats has not been filmed by an undercover documentary team or had Search Light parading it as thier latest front cover.
> 
> Griffin gave an interview and deliberately bought the subject up. It was blatent and for anybody to listen to.
> 
> ...



Have to agree its a strange move by Griffin. Makes you wonder what hes up too?  Who is he hoping to impress? Who is he trying to put off? WHY?


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 10, 2009)

The jews?


----------



## audiotech (Jul 10, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> The jews?


 
I prefer the more eloquent of your posts, explaining your thoughts in more depth.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 10, 2009)

I do think Griffin is being a bit too forward in openly racialisng a lot of his stuff recently - he may well be getting too complacent. But he's doing that on the back of results.


----------



## Stoat Boy (Jul 10, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> This is exactly the point though - its pitched outside the trad right like you. It's not aimed at you. You're not supposed to like it.



I feel we are going around in circles here because as I see it the sort of people it would appeal to in the UK are already supporting the BNP.

If our coast line was having boat loads of raggedy Africans or Albanians turning up on it every day and there was a public perception that it was problamatic then his comments might make sense in terms of persuading people who had been dithering about pitching in with the BNP but I see no real audience of potential voters that his comments appeal to with a real downside of perhaps scaring off people.

I am just trying to see if there might be a wider context in terms of his making a pitch to far right parties in countrys such as Italy and Spain where such views probably would have a wider audience.


----------



## tbaldwin (Jul 10, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> disagree .. it's a vote winner .. and he said they could have life rafts .. sorry i can hear pubs and golf clubs full of blokes going 'too fucking right sink them '



I think part of the BNPs appeal is about things just not being fair. And that white people have been discriminated against etc.....some people who would vote for them on that basis would not want to be associated with sinking boats and would be put off by it. yeah maybe some twats would go good on him etc etfc but so what....would they really be more likely to vote BNP as a result? Swings and roundabouts but id say its probably an own goal.


----------



## audiotech (Jul 10, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> I do think Griffin is being a bit too forward in openly racialisng a lot of his stuff recently - he may well be getting too complacent. But he's doing that on the back of results.


 

Thanks, that makes more sense.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 10, 2009)

MC5 said:


> I prefer the more eloquent of your posts, explaining your thoughts in more depth.



No need sometimes.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 10, 2009)

tbaldwin said:


> I think part of the BNPs appeal is about things just not being fair. And that white people have been discriminated against etc.....some people who would vote for them on that basis would not want to be associated with sinking boats and would be put off by it. yeah maybe some twats would go good on him etc etfc but so what....would they really be more likely to vote BNP as a result? Swings and roundabouts but id say its probably an own goal.



It's probably irrelevent in all honesty.


----------



## durruti02 (Jul 11, 2009)

tbaldwin said:


> I think part of the BNPs appeal is about things just not being fair. And that white people have been discriminated against etc.....some people who would vote for them on that basis would not want to be associated with sinking boats and would be put off by it. yeah maybe some twats would go good on him etc etfc but so what....would they really be more likely to vote BNP as a result? Swings and roundabouts but id say its probably an own goal.


 yes fair point .. many of those might not bother to vote


----------



## durruti02 (Jul 11, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> I do think Griffin is being a bit too forward in openly racialisng a lot of his stuff recently - he may well be getting too complacent. But he's doing that on the back of results.


 yes agree .. hopefully he's gettting carried away .. while there are plenty of people who do not give a fuck about migrants and refugees etc and don't like the muslim thing they no longer see themselves as racists ...


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jul 11, 2009)

Health warning, link contains nuts: 



Nobody wants to be their friends - the sad little fucks.

edit - the remark that vile Hungarian fash bitch said was "I would be glad if the so-called proud Hungarian Jews would go back to playing with their tiny little circumcised tail rather than vilifying me."


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jul 12, 2009)

butchersapron;9395135]They might have had 12 MEPs. You're right.[/QUOTE][QUOTE=butchersapron said:


> They might have had 12 MEPs. You're right.


so you've fuck all then.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jul 12, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> Your anti-fascist majority you mean? The worthless pro-status quo anti-fascist majority we have right now that produces fascism? Defend sarkozy, defend brown defend _our_ system!


 well at least you're not attacking strawman arguments now, even though you are still talking bollocks.


----------



## sonny61 (Jul 12, 2009)

Griffin's interview on the Andrew Marr show.

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2a6S10cnpE  (broken link)


----------



## Fedayn (Jul 12, 2009)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> well at least you're not attacking strawman arguments now, even though you are still talking bollocks.



How is he? FFS, using the Tories, Lib Dems and Labour as the exemplar of anti-BNP votes is not in any way changing the status quo, merely re-inforcing it under the management of acceptable political leaderships.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 13, 2009)

Fedayn said:


> How is he? FFS, using the Tories, Lib Dems and Labour as the exemplar of anti-BNP votes is not in any way changing the status quo, merely re-inforcing it under the management of acceptable political leaderships.



totally agree and fails to answer the real question as to apart from being anti what is anti fascism actually in favour of that it can take as a political altternative to working class communities.


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## butchersapron (Jul 13, 2009)

I've come to the conclusion that people like RMP3 are just never going to understand it no matter what happens. The road of apolitical anti-fascism is the only one they can even _see_.


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## tbaldwin (Jul 13, 2009)

What do you mean by apolitical anti fascism butchers?


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 13, 2009)

tbaldwin said:


> What do you mean by apolitical anti fascism butchers?



The sort of anti-fascism that's content is just anti-fascism, that's so empty of political content it can safely link hands with those creating the conditions that the BNP can flourish in, in the name of defending the system. The sort of anti-fascism that allows (ahem) revolutionary communists who purpotldy want to destroy bougeois society to argue on newsnight and C4 news that the BNP need to be opposed because "they're not a legitimate political party' and they want to destroy the system - which they don't actually, but the idiocy of a revolutionary communist denouncing for them supposdly having that desire is the point. The sort of anti-fascsim that calls for a vote for the mainstream parties, the sort of anti-fascism that pretneds that it isn't, the sort of anti-fascims that has David Cameron as a supporter.


----------



## tbaldwin (Jul 13, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> The sort of anti-fascism that's content is just anti-fascism, that's so empty of political content it can safely link hands with those creating the conditions that the BNP can flourish in, in the name of defending the system. The sort of anti-fascism that allows (ahem) revolutionary communists who purpotldy want to destroy bougeois society to argue on newsnight and C4 news that the BNP need to be opposed because "they're not a legitimate political party' and they want to destroy the system - which they don't actually, but the idiocy of a revolutionary communist denouncing for them supposdly having that desire is the point. The sort of anti-fascsim that calls for a vote for the mainstream parties, the sort of anti-fascism that pretneds that it isn't, the sort of anti-fascims that has David Cameron as a supporter.



Whats apolitical about that?


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 13, 2009)

It doesn't have any politics beyond a single issue -and what politics there are are practically apolitical - they're so broad they're not really politics, they're unpolitical. _What's your politics? - oh i'm for the good things and against the bad._ You can call that approach political if you like though, the criticisms of it are still there.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Jul 13, 2009)

tbaldwin said:


> Whats apolitical about that?



It's empty of any political analysis, strategy or demand apart from don't vote BNP. Worse still it has to be empty, because those promoting it have only two things in common; one is anti-BNP rhetoric, the other is organisational self interest. Obviously such a self seeking agenda isn't as appealing as railing against Griffin and co., so the former becomes the only thing they can agree to speak about.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## frogwoman (Jul 13, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> The sort of anti-fascism that's content is just anti-fascism, that's so empty of political content it can safely link hands with those creating the conditions that the BNP can flourish in, in the name of defending the system. The sort of anti-fascism that allows (ahem) revolutionary communists who purpotldy want to destroy bougeois society to argue on newsnight and C4 news that the BNP need to be opposed because "they're not a legitimate political party' and they want to destroy the system - which they don't actually, but the idiocy of a revolutionary communist denouncing for them supposdly having that desire is the point. The sort of anti-fascsim that calls for a vote for the mainstream parties, the sort of anti-fascism that pretneds that it isn't, the sort of anti-fascims that has David Cameron as a supporter.



In other words the sort of "anti-fascism" that isn't anti-fascism at all


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jul 13, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> I've come to the conclusion that people like RMP3 are just never going to understand it no matter what happens. The road of apolitical anti-fascism is the only one they can even _see_.


fuuuuuuuck ooooofff! When, EVER, have you tried to explain anything about your politics to me?

What's more, I'm sure you are aware of the genuine political difference we have, you just to fucking sectarian to acknowledge it, and prefer to attack strawmen for 64 pages.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Jul 13, 2009)

frogwoman said:


> In other words the sort of "anti-fascism" that isn't anti-fascism at all[/QU OTE]
> 
> 
> No it's a one size fits all anti-_extremism_. Near identical tactics to those regularly employed against the BNP were also routinely used against the IWCA too. Concordats by the mainstream parties, media blockades, outrageous smear campaigns (one rumour spread by Labour was that an IWCA councillor was a convicted drugs dealer and the anti-drugs campaign he organised was designed to rid himself of the competition!), police intimidation, physical threats and provocations are all part of the same dance.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 14, 2009)

Who are The Centre for Social Cohesion - they've just released a 75 page report The BNP and the Online Fascist Network. First quick skim suggests it's yet another 'expose them for being naughty' document - also takes the top-down official multi-culturalism approach whilst taking recent pronouncements by poeple like Commander John Sawer at face value (edit: actually it straight up repeats un-supported claims.) Possibly some useful info in there. Will look in more detail later.

Edit: it's utterly pathetic - it's bascially a load of shocking _comments_ from youtube vids and the like. Mc5'll be quoting it for months.



> The Burnley BNP branch's official YouTube channel appears relatively innocuous. However, the following comment from a user called 'BowieTip' has been left undeleted for two years: King Edward the 1st signed a decree expelling Jews from England on July 18th in 1290. The Edict of Expulsion was never repealed hence Jews in modern England should be considered illegal aliens.


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## audiotech (Jul 14, 2009)

Nothing new in that report.

It confirms that the BNP has links to the international neo-Nazi racist movement and that racists, antisemites, neo-Nazis and assorted loonspuds continue to gravitate towards the BNP.

The report also highlights that the BNP has managed to attract 'considerable support from disaffected white Britons', which it goes onto state, 'many of whom are undoubtedly unaware of the extent of the party‟s underlying extremism'.

Edit: And no I will not be quoting any of that dross in the coming months.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 14, 2009)

Fedayn said:


> How is he? FFS, using the Tories, Lib Dems and Labour as the exemplar of anti-BNP votes is not in any way changing the status quo, merely re-inforcing it under the management of acceptable political leaderships.



Not only does it not change the _status quo_ but in the case of two of those parties, they have a history of "shifting to the right" when it becomes politically advantageous. What's to prevent that happening again, with either or both of them "stealing the BNP's clothes" as it were?


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 14, 2009)

MC5 said:


> Edit: And no I will not be quoting any of that dross in the coming months.



Why not - it's doing exactly what you're attempting to do and what searchlight and UAF are trying to do on a larger scale -expose the true nature of the BNP and their links with extreme racists? I'd have thought it'd be right up your street. RMP3 will love it if no one else does.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 14, 2009)

Here's a great example of that apolitical anti-fascism me and Louis were talking about above. Note that being against 'free-trade capitalists' was snuck in as being as bad as racism/the BNP.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 14, 2009)

Missed this last week - UAF's analysis (their claim, not mine) of the euro results and where next. I bet i can guess. Skimming it, this jumsped out at me



> The overall shape of the results vindicates Unite Against Fascism’s strategy for the election campaign.



editL it gets even better



> Fascist parties such as the BNP stand in elections in order to gain a “respectable” cover for their street activity. So there are serious concerns that the election of two BNP Euro MPs will usher in a period where the party’s thugs are set loose to intimidate ethnic minorities and whip up race hatred.


----------



## Fedayn (Jul 14, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> Missed this last week - UAF's analysis (their claim, not mine) of the euro results and where next. I bet i can guess. Skimming it, this jumsped out at me



They do, I was pottering along Whitehall yesterday and, luckily, spotted a small demo by Downing Street. Wanders across and recognise a rather 'atmospheric' SWPer in my union. He clocked me and he starts to tell me to come to UAF conference next week to discuss the BNP etc etc. He then proceeded to tell me how we needed to join UAF to be bigger and more effective than we have been, and that the Eruos were not that goosd for the BNP..... And anyone not invovled is somne hig intellectual pontificating wehilst others get involved.... 

He then couldn't believe I didn't want to buy a socialist worker.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 14, 2009)

Oh yeah, they've got that thing on the 18th haven't they. They're going to drown us all in this apolitical anti-fascism aren't they?


----------



## Fedayn (Jul 14, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> Oh yeah, they've got that thing on the 18th haven't they. They're going to drown us all in this apolitical anti-fascism aren't they?



Yup, he really thinks that there's be discussion and debate and the ability to chamnge UAF's tactics. 

Oh and in his eyes not being involved weith UAF is effectively asrguing for beating up individual fascists cos thet's the only other route possible.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 14, 2009)

I've already had the _you're like the KPD_ line thrown at me locally.


----------



## Fedayn (Jul 14, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> I've already had the _you're like the KPD_ line thrown at me locally.



Yopu should have replied K*A*PD actually, if you don't mind. 

It's then utter inability to see the error, until their own CC tell them the error and then they not only see it but anticipated it.


----------



## Rod Sleeves (Jul 14, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> I've already had the _you're like the KPD_ line thrown at me locally.



LOL

Are they still using that one?


----------



## Nigel (Jul 14, 2009)

With recent demostrations against Islamic 'Extremists'/Support Ours Boys by UBA and others and far right possibly hanging around the edges, according to this forum NF making some sort of alignment, finding common ground with BNP and the relative electoral success; building support in some communities, there maybe confidence in BNP to be openly involved in street activity even if it is just demos.

Some sort of change in tactics could be necessary, even finding common ground with UAF?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 14, 2009)

Rod Sleeves said:


> LOL
> 
> Are they still using that one?



The old'uns are the best!


----------



## Nigel (Jul 14, 2009)

Would go along to UAF conference, but just found out Tollpuddle is on same weekend. Not very good timing

Tolpuddle Martyr’s Festival

Tolpuddle Nr Dorchester, Dorset

Fr1 17th – Sun 19th July 2009


----------



## treelover (Jul 14, 2009)

> Thanks to Nick Parker for drawing my attention to the anti-BNP protest that he organised in Lincoln last Saturday.
> 
> However, It seems from the reports in the Lincolnshire Echo that this was a mixed blessing.
> 
> ...



http://www.socialistunity.com/


Stand off between the Social Workers and the BNP in Lincoln:, very middle class chanting of slogans by the S/W vs shouts of 'Swoppie , Swoppie, Swoppie, out out out', by the BNP, couldn't make it up


----------



## treelover (Jul 14, 2009)

@Nigel, why should anyone take advice from someone who endorses benefit cuts, etc, which will only increase support for extremists...


----------



## treelover (Jul 14, 2009)

Btw, the other Fascists, Hizbut Tahir(sic?) have a meeting soon on the Commercial Road, will UAF be picketing that?


----------



## audiotech (Jul 14, 2009)

trollus incipentis


----------



## audiotech (Jul 14, 2009)

treelover said:


> http://www.socialistunity.com/
> 
> 
> Stand off between the Social Workers and the BNP in Lincoln:, very middle class chanting of slogans by the S/W vs shouts of 'Swoppie , Swoppie, Swoppie, out out out', by the BNP, couldn't make it up



But you did make it up.







It appears that this march and rally was in fact organised by the PCS, NUT and Lincoln & District trades’ council, with Socialist Party involvement.


----------



## Nigel (Jul 14, 2009)

treelover said:


> @Nigel, why should anyone take advice from someone who endorses benefit cuts, etc, which will only increase support for extremists...



Thats a bit misleading
Anyway cannot be bothered and it is not a subject for this thread!


----------



## JimPage (Jul 15, 2009)

http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/4493415.BNP_search_for_Burnley_base__progressing_/

looks like Burnley and Carlisle will be the locations of their NW regional offices


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 15, 2009)

Vote Tory in Nuneaton is the UAFs new one. 

*winks*


----------



## Nigel (Jul 15, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> Vote Tory in Nuneaton is the UAFs new one.
> 
> *winks*



Have you got a source for that?


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 15, 2009)

A source for them campaigning in nuneaton on a vote against the BNP platform whicbh in that ward means a tory vote?
http://www.socialistunity.com/?p=4371

Good to see revolutionary communists finally admitting that a tory vote is fine, is welcome.


----------



## Nigel (Jul 15, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> A source for them campaigning in nuneaton on a vote against the BNP platform whicbh in that ward means a tory vote?
> http://www.socialistunity.com/?p=4371
> 
> Good to see revolutionary communists finally admitting that a tory vote is fine, is welcome.



Thanx

Hardly got to the situation in France yet: Thief or Nazi!


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jul 15, 2009)

Fedayn said:


> Yup, he really thinks that there's be discussion and debate and the ability to chamnge UAF's tactics.
> 
> Oh and in his eyes not being involved weith UAF is effectively asrguing for beating up individual fascists cos thet's the only other route possible.


 why didn't you try to convince him of anyone else there an here, of your better route.  feel free


----------



## durruti02 (Jul 15, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> I've already had the _you're like the KPD_ line thrown at me locally.


  it's that leather jacket you wear!


----------



## durruti02 (Jul 15, 2009)

Nigel said:


> Some sort of change in tactics could be necessary, even finding common ground with UAF?


  .. no it is finally finding common ground with the vast majority of people in this country who are basically sound .. 

BUT they are angered by and scared of the idea of muslim take over, 

they are angered that people who have found sanctuary and have made their homes in this country ( which as w/c people they legitimately regard as their own .. as they BUILT it .. m/c people please note this) are prepared to let off bombs to kill randomly on tubes and buses

they are angered that after centuries of destroying the power of relegion in this country we have a large and determined group who publically state that this country will become sharia 

( and note this IDIOCY from a govt minister  .. do you think this has not done the rounds?? )

and people who are angry that 100 years after the sufferagetes we see women having to cover their faces in public 

people legitimately are entitled to be concerned 

but do i see a general anti muslim thing? sadly yes increasingly but still very very little considering the bombings and the idiots like hamza and choudry .. 

this is an incredibly dangerous moment in history for the left and all of us .. yes we have to confront racism and fascism ( but from all corners) but equally IF we are seen to be siding with muslim fundamentalism against white youth that could have disasterous consequences for all of us


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## Nigel (Jul 16, 2009)

So its nothing to do with racist hysteria by mass popular whipped up by the media.

Or scapegoating 'Muslim' immigrants for the disasterous policies both home and abroad by this and previous governments in their imperialist quest for oil and other fossil fuels?

No similarity to the hate mongering of Jewish people during the 1930's and post war fear of Zionist plots.

At the end of the day people with progressive ideas need to organise to deal with social injustice, bigotry etc.

The main with the UAF is the domination of the SWP, the eccentric behaviour of various leftist groups, democracy and accountability and other such issues.
(maybe Searchlight as well, but that is another matter)

If there is a new layer of people are becoming involved in politics, especially with concerned 'English Patriots' taking to the streets and the moderate success of the BNP recentely, then at least finding common ground with UAF will become necessary.

While we are at it could discuss what ANTIFA's tactics may be in the not too distant future. Breakin away from, on the outside too many may come across as being stuck in a subcultural, possibly dated ghetto.

If 'Militant' anti fascism in Britain is to become a fighting force to be recond with tactics and policies along some sort of United Front may be a better way forward?(No the Orthodox Trot Version Necessarily)


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## frogwoman (Jul 16, 2009)

ummm, durruti ... the only people I know who are woried by the idea of a muslim takeover are swivel eyed loons (mostly american) tbf. People don't like these idiots shouting slogans and hysteria is being whipped up in the media but I think a lot of your post is exaggerated mate ...


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## Nigel (Jul 16, 2009)

Doesn't mean that a minority organising demos agianst 'Islamic Fundamentalism' couldn't be potentially dangerous. And your real McOy Fash sniffing around.

Yoor average Joe Bloggs in the street may not go along with this, but, in the current climate consider that they have a point.,


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## The39thStep (Jul 16, 2009)

I think Durutti articulates the successful message that the BNP have put across not just to those who vote for them but those who won't votes for them but think there is a kernel of truth in what they say.

Choudry and the BNP are mirror images of politics based on appealing to faith and race. 

Yes the press is full off racial hysteria but tell me when it hasn't been. Actually most peoples perceptions whilst being influenced by national media are more likely to be firmed up by their local experience i.e. contact with neighbours, work colleagues, conversation in pubs, community groups. local shopping centres, contact with public authorities etc And some of those perceptions ,however much we might dislike it, are based on their own experiences. Hence perceptions that 'immigrants get all the housing' or 'local girls deliberately get pregnant ' might attract national media headlines but are more likely to be confirmed by local people experience of applying for social housing and the area in which they live. Combine that with the disastrous effects of multiculturalism from above by local council and the government ( anyone ever seen the film Routes to Racism btw which explores this) , New labour  and the liberal lefts support of this 'anti racism'  which in many cases dismisses people anxieties and grievances and has a knack of siding with the 'oppressed' to the point of promoting double standards and its easy to see why we are in the state we are in. 

Nigel’s point about "If 'Militant' anti fascism in Britain is to become a fighting force to be recond with tactics and policies along some sort of United Front may be a better way forward?(No the Orthodox Trot Version Necessarily) "  in my view misses the point entirely . 'militant anti fascism isn't a principle its a tactic and that tactic has been redundant for some time. Isn't it time that 'anti fascists' actually said what they were in favour of rather than what they were against ? or more to the point actually ask the local working class what they are in favour of and come up with ways of meeting those issues through a pro working class standpoint?


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## Nigel (Jul 16, 2009)

Is their any evidence that immigrants/asylum seekers are put to to top of housing lists, given preferential treatment. I guess not.

Many people I have talked to recentely rightly point out that immigrant labour is considered preferable to indignous and people have lost their jobs only to find that immigrants have taken their place! Although it is obviously the Bosses and employers that are at fault, its very difficult to argue this with people being put out of work in this way.

In my opinion Multiculturalism(based on Canadian model) has failed in short term and has become outdated and outmoded. However during periods when racism, sexism, homophobia was more prevelent in British society, although not perfect by any stretch of the imagination and you are right in that other models of social policy would have been much better, played a positive role in fighting discrimination, attacking bigotry and playing a role of giving people from these groups a higher status within society. Throwing the baby out with the bath water is not the answer. I still think that there should be positive discimination for people with disabilities because of the level of prejudice that exists in society.

As far as housing etc is concerned, I think you are right. Based upon how dysfunctional you are and how many problems you have is not the reason why you should have priority for housing, the introduction of sons and daughters policy by brown is possibly a positive move to hold communities together. As Clare Kent(IWCA) pointed out in one of her Newsletters for Churchill Ward Oxford; Why should a young male with anti social leanings selling drugs etc. be given priority over elderly people, most of whom have been decent citizens and worked all their lives.

However what are you going to do with dysfunctional single parents who have childern on the basis of gaining housing and other benefits, throw them in the workhouse?
What do you do with the 5%ers? At the end of the day the resources in this society exist for everyone to have a decent standard of living, it is the fact of the unjust distribution of wealth in this society, capitlaism and the superstructure that exists around it that creates the lack of facilities and mess we are in.


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## The39thStep (Jul 16, 2009)

Anyone read the June edition of Freedom btw . Quite an interesting read : front page about care of our old folk and the 'self first culture of the capitalist system introduced by Tories and run by Labour', page 2 Troops out of Afghanistan, page 3 criticising other parties attendance at council meetings and battling to save Burnley schools, page 4  Britain is a Christian country page, page 6 Labour Mp says Britain will be an Islamic state in 30 years, and articles criticising Tesco’s profits . page 7 nationalise the banks and help small business and an article on donated British organs being sold to foreigners due to the EU,two pages on Euro lections, page 10 article on Women against Pit Closures , page 11 activity from BNP councillors , defections to BNP, and the rest on BNP activity including the attempted banning of a St Georges Day parade by Sandwell Council.

Actually an interesting read , well put together with a good balance of information, propaganda and adverts for their party and products. definitely give the impression that they are underdogs going somewhere with the good fight I'm afraid.


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## Nigel (Jul 16, 2009)

The39thStep said:


> Anyone read the June edition of Freedom btw . Quite an interesting read : front page about care of our old folk and the 'self first culture of the capitalist system introduced by Tories and run by Labour', page 2 Troops out of Afghanistan, page 3 criticising other parties attendance at council meetings and battling to save Burnley schools, page 4  Britain is a Christian country page, page 6 Labour Mp says Britain will be an Islamic state in 30 years, and articles criticising Tesco’s profits . page 7 nationalise the banks and help small business and an article on donated British organs being sold to foreigners due to the EU,two pages on Euro lections, page 10 article on Women against Pit Closures , page 11 activity from BNP councillors , defections to BNP, and the rest on BNP activity including the attempted banning of a St Georges Day parade by Sandwell Council.
> 
> Actually an interesting read , well put together with a good balance of information, propaganda and adverts for their party and products. definitely give the impression that they are underdogs going somewhere with the good fight I'm afraid.



Its a younger crew running Freedom these days?
Seemed to be more turned of to contemporary working class issues and quite active from what I gather.


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## butchersapron (Jul 16, 2009)

Not that Freedom, the BNP Freedom. It's their paper.


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## Nigel (Jul 16, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> Not that Freedom, the BNP Freedom. It's their paper.



What A Mistake To Make


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## Random (Jul 16, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> Not that Freedom, the BNP Freedom. It's their paper.



I also assumed he meant the anarcho version until you posted that


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## The39thStep (Jul 16, 2009)

it looked a damn sight more interesting than 'Stalins nemesis The Exile and Murder of Leon Trotsky' on the e version of the Socialist  and  Socialist Workers 'Kenya's Mau Mau war: veterans demand justice from Britain'  headlines on their site.


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## Nigel (Jul 16, 2009)

Random said:


> I also assumed he meant the anarcho version until you posted that



Thanx for owning up and not making look like a complete idiot.


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## Jeff Robinson (Jul 16, 2009)

The39thStep said:


> it looked a damn sight more interesting than 'Stalins nemesis The Exile and Murder of Leon Trotsky' on the e version of the Socialist  and  Socialist Workers 'Kenya's Mau Mau war: veterans demand justice from Britain'  headlines on their site.



Why do you think Stasserite propaganda is more interesting than reporting on Kenyan war veterans campiagning for justice


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## durruti02 (Jul 16, 2009)

frogwoman said:


> ummm, durruti ... the only people I know who are woried by the idea of a muslim takeover are swivel eyed loons (mostly american) tbf. People don't like these idiots shouting slogans and hysteria is being whipped up in the media but I think a lot of your post is exaggerated mate ...



hi mate .. no i don't think my post IS exaggerated 

.. yes of course the THREAT is totally exaggerated .. there is not a hope in hell that Islam will get anywhere outside of Pakistani/Indian origin communuties  

 .. but the anger after the London bombings, the Luton demo, all the AL Hamza and Choudry stuff, Burqa wearing women with placards calling for people to be beheaded .. these have made their mark .. and i know several people non activists older people who are angry about it .. the phrase that normally comes out is 'if they donlt like it here why don't they fuck off back to Pakistan/Afghanisatn/Saudi etc "

this is the thing about nationalism ( and family actually if you think about it ) .. that it is OK for those on the inside to criticise etc but NO ONE likes it when people from the outside start to have a go .. the immediate reaction is ALWAYS going to be 'who the fuck are YOU' 

So people may have loads of criticisms of how this country has been run for decades maybe .. but IF you then have a group who you can not in any way relate too start bombing start demanding that the country change religion etc etc people are going to react ..


----------



## durruti02 (Jul 16, 2009)

The39thStep said:


> I think Durutti articulates the successful message that the BNP have put across not just to those who vote for them but those who won't votes for them but think there is a kernel of truth in what they say.
> 
> Choudry and the BNP are mirror images of politics based on appealing to faith and race.
> 
> ...


 yes agree .. particulalry the end bit


----------



## frogwoman (Jul 16, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> hi mate .. no i don't think my post IS exaggerated
> 
> .. yes of course the THREAT is totally exaggerated .. there is not a hope in hell that Islam will get anywhere outside of Pakistani/Indian origin communuties
> 
> ...



i agree with a lot of it and do know some people who say that sort of stuff, but i don't think they (or the majority of people are worried about muslims "taking over" the UK any time soon ...


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## durruti02 (Jul 16, 2009)

The39thStep said:


> Anyone read the June edition of Freedom btw . Quite an interesting read : front page about care of our old folk and the 'self first culture of the capitalist system introduced by Tories and run by Labour', page 2 Troops out of Afghanistan, page 3 criticising other parties attendance at council meetings and battling to save Burnley schools, page 4  Britain is a Christian country page, page 6 Labour Mp says Britain will be an Islamic state in 30 years, and articles criticising Tesco’s profits . page 7 nationalise the banks and help small business and an article on donated British organs being sold to foreigners due to the EU,two pages on Euro lections, page 10 article on Women against Pit Closures , page 11 activity from BNP councillors , defections to BNP, and the rest on BNP activity including the attempted banning of a St Georges Day parade by Sandwell Council.
> 
> Actually an interesting read , well put together with a good balance of information, propaganda and adverts for their party and products. definitely give the impression that they are underdogs going somewhere with the good fight I'm afraid.



 i haven't been looking at Freedom at all .. i regularly check the BNP site but have missed this .. shockingly depressingly good ..


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## durruti02 (Jul 16, 2009)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Why do you think Stasserite propaganda is more interesting than reporting on Kenyan war veterans campiagning for justice


 I am assuming this is a joke right?


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## durruti02 (Jul 16, 2009)

frogwoman said:


> i agree with a lot of it and do know some people who say that sort of stuff, but i don't think they (or the majority of people are worried about muslims "taking over" the UK any time soon ...


 ok yes i agree .. i don't think they do either .. but they worry about it ( scapegoating of course .. most people have got far better things to worry about) 
.. and it makes them angry ..


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## The39thStep (Jul 16, 2009)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Why do you think Stasserite propaganda is more interesting than reporting on Kenyan war veterans campiagning for justice



I must pass my advanced worker consciouness test some time


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## treelover (Jul 17, 2009)

> I think too often a major tactical error of the Left is that it thinks its core issues are the core issues of the greater working class / middle class. They aren’t. The BNP isn’t making that mistake.
> 
> An example. Here in the States, there is currently a huge upsurge of hostility towards Goldman Sachs, even the New York Times, Bloomberg, and the Wall Street Journal are joining in. This is quite unusual. And really, isn’t this precisely what the far left should be organizing about? Grotesque theft and piggery from a capitalist icon who manipulates the market using their government ties to do so. Seems a perfect organizing issue to me.
> 
> ...




Some U.S guy posted this on the Socialist Unity Blog,which for some reason is incredibly popular, in response to a piece by Salma Yaquub, , to me it sums up the situation perfectly.


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## Nigel (Jul 17, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> hi mate .. no i don't think my post IS exaggerated
> 
> .. yes of course the THREAT is totally exaggerated .. there is not a hope in hell that Islam will get anywhere outside of Pakistani/Indian origin communuties
> 
> ...



Do you have much contact with Muslim community, ever been in a Mosque, or are you just going by Steryotypical profiling by popular tabloid media?


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## durruti02 (Jul 17, 2009)

Nigel said:


> Do you have much contact with Muslim community, ever been in a Mosque, or are you just going by Steryotypical profiling by popular tabloid media?


 yes i do .. not a fucntionning one .. no i am not   

btw you post had nothing to do with what i had written hey ho


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## Nigel (Jul 17, 2009)

The39thStep said:


> Nigel’s point about "If 'Militant' anti fascism in Britain is to become a fighting force to be recond with tactics and policies along some sort of United Front may be a better way forward?(No the Orthodox Trot Version Necessarily) "  in my view misses the point entirely . 'militant anti fascism isn't a principle its a tactic and that tactic has been redundant for some time. Isn't it time that 'anti fascists' actually said what they were in favour of rather than what they were against ? or more to the point actually ask the local working class what they are in favour of and come up with ways of meeting those issues through a pro working class standpoint?



To a point I agree.
However many people on here would see, from mine and many other peoples perception a Militant Anti Fascism as being a tradion: Spanish Civil War, Red Shirts, Cable Street, 43 Group, 63 Group, ANL(mark 1), AFA etc.

This tendency being the most capable and progressive.
Although AFA, arguably, indulged in subcultural politics/lifestyle etc. it wasn't compulsory. With Antifa this tendency could come more predominant, predominantely Anarchist/Autonomist, close connection to squatting movement/punk subculture, Black-Block Stylie etc.


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## Nigel (Jul 17, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> yes i do .. not a fucntionning one .. no i am not
> 
> btw you post had nothing to do with what i had written hey ho



Muslims(especially militants) being mostly Indian/Pakistani.
Implying no inter-connection with broader society.


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## durruti02 (Jul 17, 2009)

Nigel said:


> Muslims(especially militants) being mostly Indian/Pakistani.
> Implying no inter-connection with broader society.


 sorry what is your point?


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## Nigel (Jul 18, 2009)

The inaccuracy and apologist stance on Islamophobia!


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## durruti02 (Jul 18, 2009)

Nigel said:


> The inaccuracy and apologist stance on Islamophobia!


 what on earth are you talking about? if you have a direct point please make it


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## butchersapron (Jul 21, 2009)

UAF conference last saturday - anyone go? Any reports?

Barnbrooks been signed off sick with stres btw the poor dear so handily couldn't appear at todays Standards committees meeting to discuss his making up three murders - suspension would have ben likely outcome. Meeting adjounred for one or two months.


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 21, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> UAF conference last saturday - anyone go? Any reports?
> 
> Barnbrooks been signed off sick with stres btw the poor dear so handily couldn't appear at todays Standards committees meeting to discuss his making up three murders - suspension would have ben likely outcome. Meeting adjounred for one or two months.



It'll take that long for one of his gimps to come up with a semi-convincing story to excuse his lies.


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## JimPage (Jul 22, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> UAF conference last saturday - anyone go? Any reports?



From SW this week. 

dated 25 July 2009 | issue 2161 

http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=18553

Hundreds rally against fascists at UAF conference
by Esme Choonara

More than 400 anti-fascist activists from around Britain gathered in Manchester last weekend for a conference organised by Unite Against Fascism (UAF).

It followed the fascist British National Party (BNP) snatching two seats in the European parliament elections last month. 

The tone of the conference was serious and determined. 

Former Labour MEP Glyn Ford reminded people that, while we should not underestimate the scale of the threat, we should be aware that “we can beat them”.

Dominique Walker, whose brother Anthony was murdered by racists in Liverpool in 2005, summed up the feelings of many. “There’s no room for complacency. And I’m not having it any more,” she said to cheers from the conference.

Other speakers included Pav Akhtar from the Unison union, Dr Dilder Chowdhury from the Muslim Council of Britain and Sam Duckworth of the band Get Cape. Wear Cape. Fly. 

There was also plenty of discussion by delegates from local UAF groups, trade unions and other community campaigns.

People agreed that the BNP is building out of a wider climate of discrimination and that the movement shouldn’t give any concessions on the question of Islamophobia or other forms of racism.

As one delegate put it, “We can’t allow any slippage. Appeasing the BNP’s agenda over the ‘British jobs for British workers’ slogans or over ‘local housing’—just strengthens them.”

Some speakers and delegates raised questions about whether UAF should back particular candidates in elections, but many people pointed out that this would split and fragment the movement.

There was very wide agreement that one key task for the movement is to keep pinning the label of Nazi on the BNP—and denying it the “respectability” it hopes will help promote its fascist politics. 

One key chance to do this will be the mass, national protest at the BNP’s Red, White and Blue “festival” in Codnor, Derbyshire, on 15 August.

Weyman Bennett, joint national secretary of UAF, called on those at the conference to build the biggest possible turnout on the day. “We have to show that we are the majority,” he said.

The anti-fascist movement has entered a serious new phase. 

No one was under any illusions that beating the BNP will be easy, but the conference was an important reminder of the energy and experience of a movement that can drive the Nazis back.


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## JHE (Jul 22, 2009)

> As one delegate put it, “We can’t allow any slippage...



Trans:  No concessions to English plebs!


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## Fedayn (Jul 22, 2009)

Esme 'Let the BNP spies into the SWP' Choonara? Oooh and some singer from a shite indie band.

And this bollocks..... 





> As one delegate put it, “We can’t allow any slippage. Appeasing the BNP’s agenda over the ‘British jobs for British workers’ slogans or over ‘local housing’—just strengthens them.”



Translates as the SWP desperate for backing over their shite position on the Lindsey Oil Refginery strikes.


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## BruisedShins (Jul 22, 2009)

> There was very wide agreement that one key task for the movement is to keep pinning the label of Nazi on the BNP—and denying it the “respectability” it hopes will help promote its fascist politics.



Yeah that approach clearly works and has got results over the last few years. We should definately be screaming "nazi's" at them as much as possible. Tackling the issues that have given rise to the BNP and looking to put class politics back on the agenda is just too time consuming. There's nothing like screaming "nazi" at someone who is concerned at the loss of jobs, lack of affordable housing and the crushing defeat of the working class in this country to make someone reassess their politics.


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## FreddyB (Jul 22, 2009)

> People agreed that the BNP is building out of a wider climate of discrimination and that the movement shouldn’t give any concessions on the question of Islamophobia or other forms of racism.


What does that mean?


----------



## Zachor (Jul 22, 2009)

FreddyB said:


> What does that mean?



It means they will concentrate their ire on white nationalist fash but ignore (or worse suck up to ) other forms of fash such as Islamic Clerical Fascism to the detriment of all including the average Muslim who probably just wants to keep their heads down and get on with life.  

The Middle Class Trot left of the UAF are a bonus to the BNP not an effective opponent.


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## FreddyB (Jul 22, 2009)

The BNP don't like the Islamic fundie loons so any opposition/criticism of those fundie loons comes from a position of racism/fascism. 

It'd be funny if it wasn't so fucking tragic


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## soam (Jul 22, 2009)

Not got it here as i am at work but i got a cracking e-mail from Barnsley UAF (sent to all 200 people on their mail list), about how the group is existing on a hand to mouth basis, and that the group needs to have a proper structure with treasurer, secretary, chair etc etc.

So BNP get 16% of the vote round here, they are holding weekly paper sales in the town centre, but the most pressing concern of UAF/SWP is bogging the group down into burocracy  and translating the energy that some newcomers into political action might have into, for want of a better term, shite!!


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## audiotech (Jul 22, 2009)

soam said:


> Not got it here as i am at work but i got a cracking e-mail from Barnsley UAF (sent to all 200 people on their mail list), about how the group is existing on a hand to mouth basis, and that the group needs to have a proper structure with treasurer, secretary, chair etc etc.
> 
> So BNP get 16% of the vote round here, they are holding weekly paper sales in the town centre, but the most pressing concern of UAF/SWP is bogging the group down into burocracy and translating the energy that some newcomers into political action might have into, for want of a better term, shite!!


 
I understood that UAF were organising to 'Converge on Codnor to stop the BNP rally'?


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## Joe Reilly (Jul 22, 2009)

JimPage said:


> From SW this week.
> 
> dated 25 July 2009 | issue 2161
> 
> http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/ar...m' has been losing hand over fist ever since.


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## TremulousTetra (Jul 22, 2009)

BruisedShins said:


> Yeah that approach clearly works and has got results over the last few years. We should definately be screaming "nazi's" at them as much as possible. Tackling the issues that have given rise to the BNP and looking to put class politics back on the agenda is just too time consuming. There's nothing like screaming "nazi" at someone who is concerned at the loss of jobs, lack of affordable housing and the crushing defeat of the working class in this country to make someone reassess their politics.


 and what about defining Griffin as a fascist?  This has had no effect whatsoever?  If you think so, you need to get out more.


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## durruti02 (Jul 22, 2009)

JimPage said:


> From SW this week.
> 
> dated 25 July 2009 | issue 2161
> 
> ...


 jesus christ when will these idiots learn .. honestly they are driving people into the arms of the BNP


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## durruti02 (Jul 22, 2009)

BruisedShins said:


> Yeah that approach clearly works and has got results over the last few years. We should definately be screaming "nazi's" at them as much as possible. Tackling the issues that have given rise to the BNP and looking to put class politics back on the agenda is just too time consuming. There's nothing like screaming "nazi" at someone who is concerned at the loss of jobs, lack of affordable housing and the crushing defeat of the working class in this country to make someone reassess their politics.


 indeed 

though to be fair most w/c british people are nasty racists and if not they do not understand imperialism correctly and they probably care more about their families than migrants so hey lets shout at them anyway NAZIS OUT! NAZIS OUT! NAZIS OUT!


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## durruti02 (Jul 22, 2009)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> and what about defining Griffin as a fascist?  This has had no effect whatsoever?  If you think so, you need to get out more.


 RMP3

do you listen to people who do not appear to give a fuck about you? 

yes saying Griffin is a nazi is important .. but if it comes from people who appear alien or opposed to your interests actually it is worse than useless .. it may make people think, "actually maybe the Nazis were OK cos this Mr Griffin seems OK"


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## TremulousTetra (Jul 22, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> RMP3
> do you listen to people who do not appear to give a fuck about you?
> yes saying Griffin is a nazi is important .. but if it comes from people who appear alien or opposed to your interests actually it is worse than useless .. it may make people think, "actually maybe the Nazis were OK cos this Mr Griffin seems OK"


 I'm sorry durrito, you know I respect you much more than the toy town revolutionary, but like butcher's apron for 64 pages, you seem to be misunderstanding the target audience of the anti fascists.  You need to RE read my question, and answer it.  The question isn't about those who have voted BNP, it is about those who haven't.

btw.  Please don't take this question the wrong way, but do you actually talk to BNP supporters?


----------



## JimPage (Jul 23, 2009)

MC5 said:


> I understood that UAF were organising to 'Converge on Codnor to stop the BNP rally'?



Yep they are promising to "Kettle" the event to close it down, I assume by the use of physical force. I have funny feeling it is they who will be kettled up on the day

The first time however, i think, where the idea of a peaceful rally and photo-opportunity is not even on the agenda for the SWP


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## JimPage (Jul 23, 2009)

Joe Reilly said:


> A statement that could be dated 'spring 1994'. That was when the BNP abandoned their attempt to control the streets and opted for a euro-nationalist strategy.
> 
> And though it shows no signs of being aware of it conservative 'anti-fascism' has been losing hand over fist ever since.



I dont think that they recognise the fact that they are losing-see their post election analysis. If antifascism continues to lie to itself, such as the oft repeated one that the BNP vote went down in June, then it cant even start to find the new strategies needed 

In particular, they are convinced the election of the MEPs will lead to a return to street violence on the left, terorrism and a return to the march and grow strategy. 

Not wanting to be unkind, but I just dont understand why they are saying this. 

And I dont trust their leadership in as far as protecting people from getting masses of people nicked on injured in some mad charge up a country lane

I am in all honesty not picking or slagging off UAF, but they they need to explain much better what they are up to


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## CUMBRIANDRAGON (Jul 23, 2009)

Zachor said:


> It means they will concentrate their ire on white nationalist fash but ignore (or worse suck up to ) other forms of fash such as Islamic Clerical Fascism to the detriment of all including the average Muslim who probably just wants to keep their heads down and get on with life.
> 
> The Middle Class Trot left of the UAF are a bonus to the BNP not an effective opponent.




The middle class trots and UAF are a god send for the bnp.

Forget about class struggle forget about islamic clerical islam .Everything in society will be ok as soon as the bnp re dealt with.

as jonny rotten says

ever had the feeling you been swindled?


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## CUMBRIANDRAGON (Jul 23, 2009)

JimPage said:


> Yep they are promising to "Kettle" the event to close it down, I assume by the use of physical force. I have funny feeling it is they who will be kettled up on the day
> 
> The first time however, i think, where the idea of a peaceful rally and photo-opportunity is not even on the agenda for the SWP




What is the point of kettling a bnp event? by uaf and swp etc?

Can someone not grab them by the neck and remind them about class politics


----------



## durruti02 (Jul 23, 2009)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> I'm sorry durrito, you know I respect you much more than the toy town revolutionary, but like butcher's apron for 64 pages, you seem to be misunderstanding the target audience of the anti fascists.  You need to RE read my question, and answer it.  The question isn't about those who have voted BNP, it is about those who haven't.
> 
> btw.  Please don't take this question the wrong way, but do you actually talk to BNP supporters?



hi RMP3 

yes i totally agree that saying that griffin is a nazi will put off many people from voting BNP .. indeed after the euros i accepted, on this thread i think, that the HnH camapign probably had a decent affect on the BNP vote 

however to me that is irrelevent .. i do not worry that the majority any time soon will vote BNP .. it is the damage the BNP can do in w/c communities that is the issue. 

so for me the question has never been how to stop people voting BNP , it is always been about how to replace the BNP in w/c communities 

and with over a million people already votig BNP i.e. for Griffin it is indeed dangerous to go on about  him being a Nazi.. 

At the moment we do not have a Nazi movement in the UK. IF we fail to deal with the BNP by offerring a grassroots alternative and instead simply shouting Nazi we could actually push a significant % of those 1 MIllion BNP voters into identifying as Nazis 

and yes i do speak to BNP voters or those thinking about it .. i work with some and e.g. met others at Visteon, people sat side by side with black and asian workmates who clearly were thinking of voting BNP.  I know almost all of these people would not give a monkeys about Griffin being a Nazi .. they have discounted it .. they see this as grassroots protest vote 

btw what stopped one work mate from voting BNP again was not just ridicule form the rest of us but mostly from an ex NFer who argued that ALL politicians are scum and on the make


----------



## treelover (Jul 23, 2009)

The most recent 'honour killing' in East London where an 'adulturer' was forced to drink acid!, won't help either, there has to be strong condemnation of this cultural fascism' as well.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 23, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> hi RMP3
> 
> yes i totally agree that saying that griffin is a nazi will put off many people from voting BNP .. indeed after the euros i accepted, on this thread i think, that the HnH camapign probably had a decent affect on the BNP vote



What on earth makes you think that - even Searchlight have attacked that cul-de-sac.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jul 23, 2009)

treelover said:


> The most recent 'honour killing' in East London where an 'adulturer' was forced to drink acid!, won't help either, there has to be strong condemnation of this cultural fascism' as well.


everyones a fascist, and fascism totally loses all meaning.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 23, 2009)

A decent anti fascist resource would be one that spelt out the anti working class nature of some of the BNP policies.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Jul 24, 2009)

JimPage said:


> I dont think that they recognise the fact that they are losing-see their post election analysis. If antifascism continues to lie to itself, such as the oft repeated one that the BNP vote went down in June, then it cant even start to find the new strategies needed
> 
> In particular, they are convinced the election of the MEPs will lead to a return to street violence on the left, terorrism and a return to the march and grow strategy.
> 
> ...



They don't need to explain and no one need bother to ask them anymore as the anti-fascism on offer is a charade, whose sole function is to protect the right of centre mainstream parties from the wrath of working class voters.  

True, it  can prove sort of embarrassing, and, though predictable, and indeed predicted, it is a real shame that anti-fascism has been prostituted in such a way, but in the real world it amounts to little more than a freak/side show for the delectation of the media and the BNP. 

So let them get on with it. 

Back in real world the job for the rest of us is to work on a plan to displace the BNP as the 'radical alternative' in the longer term.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jul 24, 2009)

The39thStep said:


> A decent anti fascist resource would be one that spelt out the anti working class nature of some of the BNP policies.



seriously, please contribute that info to; http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=9457892#post9457892


----------



## durruti02 (Jul 24, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> What on earth makes you think that - even Searchlight have attacked that cul-de-sac.


 the HNH campaign was massive. They not only delivered millions of leaflets and newsletters but had millions more articles placed in the Mirror ( and someone said the Sun was using their stuff too??) 

And it is clear the BNP did NOT do as well in the elections as they would of hoped in a period of extreme dissatisfaction with the politicians from the established parties.

and it is clear the Nazi argument works with many people. 

As much as it is clear most people who vote BNP are NOT Nazi and do not want to be associated with Nazis

So i think it extremely likely the HnH campaign stopped many tens of thousands voting BNP. 

As i said though to me this is not important. 

No one who was put off voting BNP this time was/has been offered any real alternative and so it is extremely likely that this strategy has a short shelf life

My position has been all the time that any put in needs to be on the basis of creating an alternative. i do not buy the argument HnH gives us space/time to build that alternative


----------



## TremulousTetra (Jul 24, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> the HNH campaign was massive. They not only delivered millions of leaflets and newsletters but had millions more articles placed in the Mirror ( and someone said the Sun was using their stuff too??)
> 
> And it is clear the BNP did NOT do as well in the elections as they would of hoped in a period of extreme dissatisfaction with the politicians from the established parties.
> 
> ...



Excellent post. IMHO


----------



## Fedayn (Jul 24, 2009)

Dormanstown by-election result

Election held yesterday, count this morning

Lib Dems 805
Lab 515
bnp 145
Con 73
Turnout 29.8%

April 2009: LibDem 809 Lab 667 BNP 305 Con 125


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jul 27, 2009)

Article here about the BNP's shit stirring racist lies in the Norwich North by-election:

http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2009/07/22/the-bnps-lies-in-norwich-north/


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 27, 2009)

Reddish North (Stockport) by election last Thursday

Lab 1218 (49.5%) +1%
Con 403 (16.4%) -8.8%
UKIP 342 (13.9%) +13.9%
LD 303 (12.3%) + 0.7%
BNP 195 (7.9%) - 6.6%


2008 result 
Lab 1341 
Con 699 
BNP 402 
LibDem 321

The absence of mass leafletting saying don't vote nazi probably explains their relatively poor result!


----------



## Stoat Boy (Jul 28, 2009)

Or perhaps UKIP offer many of those who might have considered voting BNP a more respectable way of protest voting ?

Maybe you lefties should team up with UKIP


----------



## CUMBRIANDRAGON (Jul 28, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> hi RMP3
> 
> yes i totally agree that saying that griffin is a nazi will put off many people from voting BNP .. indeed after the euros i accepted, on this thread i think, that the HnH camapign probably had a decent affect on the BNP vote
> 
> ...



This is definantly the voice of reason instead of trying to stop people votting bnp we should be giving people an alternative .
Its better to organise multicultural projects bring people together instead of shouting nazi scum of our streets which just sounds childish.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 28, 2009)

Stoat Boy said:


> Or perhaps UKIP offer many of those who might have considered voting BNP a more respectable way of protest voting ?
> 
> Maybe you lefties should team up with UKIP



we normally vote NF to keep the BNP out


----------



## JimPage (Jul 29, 2009)

By election tomorrow in Sadie Graham`s old seat in Brinsley- i dont expect them to retain this one and expect a drop to 3rd place for them here.

They have had a run of below average results- and UKIP seems to now be beating them wherever they stand


----------



## durruti02 (Jul 31, 2009)

http://www.broxtowe.gov.uk/index.aspx?articleid=557  lost yes but not dropped that far still nearly 30% of the vote! 

Candidate Party Votes Cast Elected

John Leslie Booth Conservative 416 Elected

Janina Anna Brown (Known as Nina) British National Party 288

Stuart William Hosker Libral Democrats 224	

Edward Jacobs Labour 68

Keith Willoughby	UK Independence	21	

2007 Results
Electorate: 1861 | Seats: 01 | Ballot Papers: 1002 | % Poll: 53.84

Candidate Party Votes Cast Elected

Sadie Graham British National Party 439 	Elected

Robert Murray Labour 295 

Wlady Wilhardt Independent 155

Kenneth Graham Phillips Independent 109 


turnout seems abut the same ..


----------



## JHE (Aug 1, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> http://www.broxtowe.gov.uk/index.aspx?articleid=557  lost yes but not dropped that far still nearly 30% of the vote!
> 
> Candidate Party Votes Cast Elected
> 
> ...



Is that the full info about candidates and votes in 2007?  If it is, Sadie Graham, the then candidate for the BNP, won in a contest which did not include either a Tory candidate or a Lib Dem candidate.

(The Labour vote has slumped, I notice.)


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Aug 3, 2009)

> *Far-right activists have launched a campaign of intimidation and violence against political opponents including a series of death threats and physical attacks.*
> 
> Hardline fascists are targeting students and leading anti-racism activists who campaigned against the British National Party in June's European elections.
> 
> ...



http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/aug/02/far-right-campaign-of-violence


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 3, 2009)

Matthew Taylor a long establised Searchlight conduit.



> Aryan Martyrs' Brigade


  -come the fuck on, this isn't serious, this is the always existing nutty fringe being nutty. It's irrelevant - but of course, the UAF and Searchlight are going to a make linking this idicocy with the BNP the central approach of their already faileld model, rather than any actual politics.

edit: they're also going to develop this two-level nonsense, of there being an official BNP and a secret shadowy terrorist BNP.


----------



## JimPage (Aug 3, 2009)

"Aryan Martyrs' Brigade"

who exist in as far as the Bolshevik Horde of Rage, whose existance I have just invented 30 seconds ago, exist.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 3, 2009)

JimPage said:


> who exist in as far as the Bolshevik Horde of Rage, whose existance I have just invented 30 seconds ago, exist.



There's a whole new possible thread Jim!


----------



## JimPage (Aug 3, 2009)

JHE said:


> Is that the full info about candidates and votes in 2007?  If it is, Sadie Graham, the then candidate for the BNP, won in a contest which did not include either a Tory candidate or a Lib Dem candidate.
> 
> (The Labour vote has slumped, I notice.)



Yes, was full list, tories and libs did not stand in 2007. Considering the fact that Graham lef the BNP and hasnt turned up for a council meeting for 6 months - a remarkably high BNP vote. This ward has been solid labour throughout living memory


----------



## treelover (Aug 3, 2009)

> "Aryan Martyrs' Brigade"
> 
> who exist in as far as the Bolshevik Horde of Rage, whose existance I have just invented 30 seconds ago, exist.
> Reply With Quote




Its a bit, well, 'arabic' name for a extreme far right outfit, isn't it, though i see Bennett is now using it for his own ends.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 3, 2009)

Jeff Robinson said:


> http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/aug/02/far-right-campaign-of-violence



almost as legendary as the aryan strike forces smashing of antifa in central manchester last year


----------



## cogg (Aug 3, 2009)

JimPage said:


> "Aryan Martyrs' Brigade"
> 
> who exist in as far as the Bolshevik Horde of Rage, whose existance I have just invented 30 seconds ago, exist.


Lying bastard! 
I was a founding member of BHoG in 1979. We later became People's Independent Socialist Organisations Federation (PISOF)


----------



## JimPage (Aug 6, 2009)

On electoral matters, they are fighting by elections next few weeks in Blackpool and Kings Lynn

They are alsos very likely to fight forthcoming ones in Daventry and Barnsley, in both wards they came a very strong second the last time they stood


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 8, 2009)

Good grief !    http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2009/08/435860.html


----------



## durruti02 (Aug 8, 2009)

The39thStep said:


> Good grief !    http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2009/08/435860.html


 check the comments .. is probably a bullshit story


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 24, 2009)

BNP faces legal action over membership and constitution



> County court proceedings have been brought over criteria set out on the BNP website restricting membership to applicants described as coming from “particular ethnic groups” and those whose skin colour is “white”.
> 
> The BNP’s constitution was also said to be discriminatory, and its publication online, along with the membership requirements, was therefore said to be illegal under the terms of the Race Relations Act.
> 
> ...



John Wadham, ex of liberty seems to be the main mover behind this waste of time.


----------



## El Jefe (Aug 24, 2009)

why is it a waste of time? (serious, interested question, not a provocation)


----------



## durruti02 (Aug 24, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> BNP faces legal action over membership and constitution
> 
> 
> 
> John Wadham, ex of liberty seems to be the main mover behind this waste of time.


really really thick from cre


----------



## durruti02 (Aug 24, 2009)

El Jefe said:


> why is it a waste of time? (serious, interested question, not a provocation)


imho it gives them publicity and ammunition


----------



## El Jefe (Aug 24, 2009)

but it also puts them in an absurd position that will tie them up in knots, could see Griffin et al facing prosecution and could leave them forced to accept "ethnic" membership which leaves potential for some kind of entryist damage to be done - doesn't that allay the publicity / ammunition issue to some extent:?


----------



## Fedayn (Aug 24, 2009)

El Jefe said:


> but it also puts them in an absurd position that will tie them up in knots, could see Griffin et al facing prosecution and could leave them forced to accept "ethnic" membership which leaves potential for some kind of entryist damage to be done - doesn't that allay the publicity / ammunition issue to some extent:?



Are there huge numbers of non-whites here desperately knocking on the door waiting to get into the BNP? They are pretty clear about their objectives. Can't see it appeaqling to many non-whites, as such what's the point? It's yet more utterly pointless 'Oooh we really' tackling the equality agenda. Shamwe the twats at the top of the EHRC aren't so keen on tackling it within their own organisation.


----------



## El Jefe (Aug 24, 2009)

Fedayn said:


> Are there huge numbers of non-whites here desperately knocking on the door waiting to get into the BNP? They are pretty clear about their objectives. Can't see it appeaqling to many non-whites, as such what's the point? It's yet more utterly pointless 'Oooh we really' tackling the equality agenda. Shamwe the twats at the top of the EHRC aren't so keen on tackling it within their own organisation.



but as i say, regardless of the EHRC motivation or whatever, anything that ties the BNP up in legal knots and leaves them open to some kind of organised mass ethnic sign-up as an obstructive measure has to be of some use? Even of simply to fuck them off


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 24, 2009)

I'd be very suprised if this tied them up in knots tbh. Last month the EU parliment investigated taking similiar action and the BNP defused it by signing a decleration that they would not discriminate against their new constituents on the basis of race. They'll simply take the minimal legal steps necessary and take the opportunity to highlight other race based membership groups - the old _one law for them another for us_ approach.


----------



## Fedayn (Aug 24, 2009)

El Jefe said:


> but as i say, regardless of the EHRC motivation or whatever, anything that ties the BNP up in legal knots and leaves them open to some kind of organised mass ethnic sign-up as an obstructive measure has to be of some use? Even of simply to fuck them off



The last court case not only didn't tie them up in knots but made them even more popular and gave them the perfect platform to get into the press to defend themselves and when they won give a massive two-fingers to the 'establishment'.


----------



## El Jefe (Aug 24, 2009)

OK, fair play. Like I said, it was a genuine query 

i can still see some mileage in it if someone could organise some mass sign-up of black / asian members (like Greenpeace buying Shell shares or whatever) but it might be a pipe dream


----------



## nightbreed (Aug 24, 2009)

cogg said:


> Lying bastard!
> I was a founding member of BHoG in 1979. We later became People's Independent Socialist Organisations Federation (PISOF)



I was a member of ARSO (Andover Revolutionary Socialist Organisation) back in 1980. I never heard of the Fed. We would have affiliated.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 25, 2009)

> The definition of "Black" does not refer to skin colour.
> 
> The emphasis is on the common experience and determination of the people of African, African-Caribbean and Asian origin to oppose the effects of racism



Here's one simple way out of it for the BNP - copy the substantive content of this with a few changed terms, and you'll also become officially and consitutionally anti-racist. This comes from the The National Black Police Association.


----------



## One_Stop_Shop (Aug 25, 2009)

Why would you want to give the BNP ideas on a public forum?


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 25, 2009)

One_Stop_Shop said:


> Why would you want to give the BNP ideas on a public forum?



The BNP will no doubt have looked at this as a defence already, funnily enough they are quite canny politically.


----------



## One_Stop_Shop (Aug 25, 2009)

To be honest they seem canny sometimes and stupid other times. Their full time organisers seem like a mix of people who are quite on the ball and nutters. Don't think much of their legal bloke.

I'd still say it's better not to post up ideas they haven't already come out with, just in case.

But this is all a waste of time, but what else do people expect from the EHRC, they are a waste of space and a last bastion of failed liberal multiculturalism.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 25, 2009)

One_Stop_Shop said:


> Why would you want to give the BNP ideas on a public forum?



I'm not giving them ideas - they've been banging on about the National Black Police Association for years already. They'll have even more opportunity to so now.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Aug 25, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> I'm not giving them ideas - they've been banging on about the National Black Police Association for years already. They'll have even more opportunity to so now.



Griffin was on about it after the Euro elections when asked directly about their consitution being for whites only. 

On the Today Programme, iirc.


----------



## One_Stop_Shop (Aug 25, 2009)

OK sorry butchersapron!


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 25, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> I'm not giving them ideas - they've been banging on about the National Black Police Association for years already. They'll have even more opportunity to so now.




yeah stop giving them ideas


----------



## JimPage (Aug 26, 2009)

3 winnable by elections forthcoming for them, in Boston in a ward they came second in June, at council level in South Oxhey where they hold the County Council seat- and in Daventry where they polled 31% in 2008.


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## durruti02 (Aug 30, 2009)

good example of a 'new bnp' cllr  .. seems right wing tory .. wonder how he fits in with the old school lot 

http://martynfindley.blogspot.com/2009/08/truth-about-british-national-party.html


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 3, 2009)

The case brought by the Equalities and Human Rights Commission now adjourned as it appeasr the BNP didn't instruct their soliciters until tuesay night (they ended up having to pay the costs because of this). Might suggest some internal dispute other whether tol fight the case or not - Griffin seems to think not and has pointed otu that new Equality bill will "simply and unavoidably ban any political party from discriminating on grounds of ethnicity". I suspect that he doesn't want the expense of a long defence. Story


----------



## BalhamCloud (Sep 3, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> The case brought by the Equalities and Human Rights Commission now adjourned as it appeasr the BNP didn't instruct their soliciters until tuesay night (they ended up having to pay the costs because of this). Might suggest some internal dispute other whether tol fight the case or not - Griffin seems to think not and has pointed otu that new Equality bill will "simply and unavoidably ban any political party from discriminating on grounds of ethnicity". I suspect that he doesn't want the expense of a long defence. Story



The BNP is dropping it's whites only membership policy and is now concentrating on rewriting it's constitution to facilitate non-white membership within a matter of weeks.

It's carefully worded on the BNP website, you wouldn't think of it as a big story, but that is the bottom line...the BNP membership will be open to all within a matter of weeks.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Sep 3, 2009)

BalhamCloud said:


> ...the BNP membership will be open to all within a matter of weeks.



So what? They'll easily find some way to swerve round the implications. It's not like the BNP is a golf club is it?

This is just like the publicity surrounding the publishing of the membership list. 'Worth 30 years of anti-fascism' and so on from some witless twerps on here. The BNP's imminent demise was predicted. Well we all know what happened next.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 3, 2009)

BalhamCloud said:


> The BNP is dropping it's whites only membership policy and is now concentrating on rewriting it's constitution to facilitate non-white membership within a matter of weeks.
> 
> It's carefully worded on the BNP website, you wouldn't think of it as a big story, but that is the bottom line...the BNP membership will be open to all within a matter of weeks.



So the BNP will, in a matter of weeks, be able to declare, with the full weight of the law behind them, and with the successor body to the Commision for Racial Equality supporting them, that they are not a racist party. What a victory.


----------



## treelover (Sep 3, 2009)

spot on,


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Sep 3, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> So the BNP will, in a matter of weeks, be able to declare, with the full weight of the law behind them, and with the successor body to the Commision for Racial Equality supporting them, that they are not a racist party. What a victory.



Yep, it's the BNP's most overt forms of racism, like their stupid as fuck aryan membership policy, that stand in the way of their goose march toward the mainstream. The EHRC have really scored an own goal here.


----------



## JHE (Sep 3, 2009)

There was talk of organising a sort of mass-joining & takeover thingy, once the race-based membership rule is scrapped, and then sort of reforming the BNP into something its opponents don't mind or just disbanding it.

I don't know whether anyone will try such a thing, but a few things occur to me.

1.  The BNP saw this legal challenge coming a long time ago and not everyone in the BNP can be as daft as that silly young man, Lee Somebody-or-other (Barnes?), who blathers on semi-literately about legal stuff and has  a law degree from Kent.  I think the BNP leadership had probably decided long ago how to deal with this challenge.  They are prepared.

2.  It will be interesting to see if anyone does try the takeover thingy and, if anyone does try to organise it, whether there will be many volunteers to join.  My hunch is that, though lots of people hate the BNP, and the idea will appeal to various people (esp. giggling dope-smokers, I suspect), relatively few would join it in order to do away with it.

3.  The BNP may well have such an undemocratic constitution that it would be difficult - I don't say impossible - to take over.  It might all hang on running a candidate against Griffin for Griffin's post ('President' or 'Chairman' or 'Top Banana' or whatever it is).

4.  In the (unlikely) event of the takeover thing actually happening, I guess the BNPers would form a new little party.  The whole thing would have disrupted them and cost lots of time and effort (not least on the part of the anti-BNP campaigners), but it would probably prove to be a hollow victory before long.



Anyway.... it's all going to be fun to watch, whatever happens.


----------



## audiotech (Sep 3, 2009)

Griffin quoted in The Guardian:



> It is now crystal clear to all concerned that we simply do not have a choice but to change our membership policy," said Griffin. "Adapt or die is the only decision left to make, for failure to adapt would lead either to our being bled white through the courts or crushed by new criminal laws.


 
Fun indeed.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Sep 3, 2009)

MC5 said:


> Griffin quoted in The Guardian:
> 
> 
> 
> Fun indeed.



And after that they will demand that the same laws and logic are applied in an even handed manner against all other mono-ethnic projects beloved and funded by lefty liberals everywhere. 


Fun indeed. 

But as per usual - only one winner.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Sep 3, 2009)

JHE said:


> There was talk of organising a sort of mass-joining & takeover thingy, once the race-based membership rule is scrapped, and then sort of reforming the BNP into something its opponents don't mind or just disbanding it.
> 
> I don't know whether anyone will try such a thing, but a few things occur to me.
> 
> ...



The idea that the average lefty would volunteer their details and that the far-right (once removed) would not seriously fuck with them if they did is remarkably naive. Euro-nationalism is a change of strategy but thats all it is. The goals and basic mentality are the same.


----------



## Totoro303 (Sep 3, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> So the BNP will, in a matter of weeks, be able to declare, with the full weight of the law behind them, and with the successor body to the Commision for Racial Equality supporting them, that they are not a racist party. What a victory.



Spot on analysis - another propaganda victory for the BNP, and another great own goal scored by those who campaigned for the BNP to be forced to open up their membership to all. 

To my mind this is just the latest example of how the 'left' is currently losing the battle against the far right in terms of strategy and tactics, which have been discussed at great length elsewhere on U75 over the last month or so.


----------



## audiotech (Sep 3, 2009)

On the plus side, it could lead to the demise of organised racism in Great Britain?


----------



## Totoro303 (Sep 3, 2009)

MC5 said:


> On the plus side, it could lead to the demise of organised racism in Great Britain?




Or maybe this could lead to the further legitimisation of the BNP, which is the main long term gain of the BNP - i.e. its desire to hypocritically pose as a   respectable law abiding party which is nearer to the mainstream than the lunatic fringe??


----------



## BalhamCloud (Sep 3, 2009)

MC5 said:


> On the plus side, it could lead to the demise of organised racism in Great Britain?



Nope, New Labour will survive this.


----------



## Fedayn (Sep 3, 2009)

BalhamCloud said:


> Nope, New Labour will survive this.



Hmmmmm.....


----------



## BalhamCloud (Sep 4, 2009)

Fedayn said:


> Hmmmmm.....



You're right to show concern. I should have said:

'Nope, the establishment will survive this.'


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 4, 2009)

MC5 said:


> On the plus side, it could lead to the demise of organised racism in Great Britain?



What a brain-numbingly stupid post.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Sep 4, 2009)

MC5 said:


> On the plus side, it could lead to the demise of organised racism in Great Britain?



Because all the non-white people who wanted to join the BNP will now be able to do so?


----------



## JimPage (Sep 4, 2009)

JHE said:


> .
> 
> 2.  It will be interesting to see if anyone does try the takeover thingy and, if anyone does try to organise it, whether there will be many volunteers to join.  My hunch is that, though lots of people hate the BNP, and the idea will appeal to various people (esp. giggling dope-smokers, I suspect), relatively few would join it in order to do away with it.
> .



their voting membership is based on activism and willingness to stand for election over a two year period, so the chances of takeover are zilch

they will allow some candidates (Mr Singh of Northampton, being the first) who will be given no hope ward to work in probably unsafe areas to campaign in to earn their voting members rights


----------



## JimPage (Sep 4, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> So the BNP will, in a matter of weeks, be able to declare, with the full weight of the law behind them, and with the successor body to the Commision for Racial Equality supporting them, that they are not a racist party. What a victory.



the only worry for Griffin is if his own membership rejects any constitutioanl change (he needs a 2/3rds majority)- which may rally the nutzi/dinosaur wing of the party if they linked up with the December 2007 rebels

The rebels however have just issued a "Sadie Graham is innocent" (of leaking the membership list ) email blowing whatever credibility they have out of the water


----------



## Divisive Cotton (Sep 4, 2009)

It's interesting territory for the BNP if they go with Griffin on this one.

Their _whole reason for existing is race_ and without it what are they there for?


----------



## FreddyB (Sep 4, 2009)

JHE said:


> 1.  The BNP saw this legal challenge coming a long time ago and not everyone in the BNP can be as daft as that silly young man, Lee Somebody-or-other (Barnes?), who blathers on semi-literately about legal stuff and has  a law degree from Kent.  I think the BNP leadership had probably decided long ago how to deal with this challenge.  They are prepared.


I'm not so sure they're as ready as you make out, the fact they've already had to shell out costs and have binned their old lawyers suggests that though they may well have a plan they are not being very slick at implementing it. They're reacting to something here, they aren't in control. 



JHE said:


> 2.  It will be interesting to see if anyone does try the takeover thingy and, if anyone does try to organise it, whether there will be many volunteers to join.  My hunch is that, though lots of people hate the BNP, and the idea will appeal to various people (esp. giggling dope-smokers, I suspect), relatively few would join it in order to do away with it.
> 
> 3.  The BNP may well have such an undemocratic constitution that it would be difficult - I don't say impossible - to take over.  It might all hang on running a candidate against Griffin for Griffin's post ('President' or 'Chairman' or 'Top Banana' or whatever it is).
> 
> ...



The BNP leadership have experience of seeing off leadership challenges and internal elements that are out to disrupt them. I'm sure they'd welcome the memberships subs whoever they come from. It's a bad plan.


----------



## FreddyB (Sep 4, 2009)

Divisive Cotton said:


> It's interesting territory for the BNP if they go with Griffin on this one.
> 
> Their _whole reason for existing is race_ and without it what are they there for?



I don't see it being a problem for them at all. He can sell it to his membership on the basis that it's just paper, another hoop the "marxist establishment" have forced the to jump through but in reality it changes nothing.


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## TremulousTetra (Sep 4, 2009)

Think the majority bnp supporters, and most members will welcome it tactically, and some in spirit.  Certainly a detrimental to anti-fascism imho.


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## audiotech (Sep 4, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> What a brain-numbingly stupid post.


 
Exactly my thoughts on reading your work.


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## durruti02 (Oct 16, 2009)

Barnsley By Election 

LABOUR has retained its seat following the St Helen’s ward by election, taking 60 percent of the votes.

Some 2,572 people – a 31 percent turnout  - voted at eight polling stations on Thursday, 15 October. This means that the new ward member for St Helen’s is Roy Butterwood.The full result was as follows:

    * Lisa Brooksbank (British National Party) - 590
    * Roy Butterwood (Labour) – 1520
    * Eddie Gouthwaite (Liberal Democrats) – 78
    * Daniel Clive Pickering (Barnsley Independent Group) – 171
    * Neil Robinson (UK Independence Party) – 94
    * Clive Watkinson (Conservative) – 89

BA noted this In fact the really interesting thing in that Barnsely result (as regards the GE anyway) is the labour vote leaping up by what 33%, the BNP vote stable/dropping slightly, and the tories and lib dems collapsing toally.

2009 Lab 1520 BNP 590 Ind 171 UKIP 94Con 89 LD 78
2008: Lab 965 BNP 635 Ind 299 Con 200
2007: Lab 1076 BNP 311 Ind 348 Con 133
2006: Lab 905 Ind 707 Con 197
2004: Lab 1109 BNP 245 Ind 1055 Ind 771 Con 156 LD 340

i (D02) am guessing this is a combination of a big HnH mass leafletting campaign and local factors .. this election does not seem to appear on any BNP websites .. is there some sort of split .. this is poor fro them


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## frogwoman (Oct 16, 2009)

this is a spectacular own goal by the CRE.


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## butchersapron (Oct 16, 2009)

Labour were one seat short of an overall majority on the council as a result of the lab councillors death and desperately needed to get this seat back - i imagine they pulled out all stops.


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## butchersapron (Oct 24, 2009)

Very late 2008 accounts finally published. Quick skim shows that membership figures not included this time, but that income from membership subs is down by crica 50% (subs may have been reduced or re-organised for tax purposes, don't know, i think the 'membership branch dividend' might possibly be something to do with this). Donations and fund raising rose quite significantly. Significant reduction in commerial and campaign expenditure.


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## butchersapron (Nov 9, 2009)

In Glasgow iof all places! I know much of this is simply labour attempts to scare the horses to get the vote out, but...

BNP set to advance in ex-Speaker Martin's Glasgow seat



> Senior politicians from all the main parties have conceded that the BNP could make the significant advance of saving its deposit in the Glasgow North East by-election, on Thursday.
> 
> However, Labour Party officials campaigning in the constituency warned yesterday that the BNP could even come third, as part of a "protest vote" against the number of asylum-seekers living in the area.



Kenny Farquharson: No room for complacency



> FORECASTING the results of by-elections is a mug's game. So here goes. It's pretty much a dead cert that Labour will win the Glasgow North-East by-election this coming Thursday, with the SNP in second place. What's less certain, and what could end up being the story of the night, is who will come in third. And in particular, whether that prize will go to the British National Party.
> 
> There is enough anecdotal evidence from the constituency to suggest the BNP's message of intolerance, ignorance and fear has found a ready echo among a minority of Glasgow voters. Friends of mine who have spent time in the constituency in recent weeks – some as journalists,
> some as canvassers – have been taken aback at the nakedly racist comments they have heard in the streets and on the doorsteps.


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## treelover (Nov 9, 2009)

It's funny, but Nl apparatchiks, who have spent years attacking the poor, , launching and supporting illegal wars, privatising, attacking asylum seekers and migrants who for many years they encouraged, etc are clinging onto the only bit of radicalism they have left: their 'anti-fascism'/anti-racism: I remember going in MP Richard Caborn's Office, there were no pictures of his Communist father, none of his days working in the Steel Industry, the Miners Strike, etc, but a massive one of him meeting Nelson Mandela.


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## TremulousTetra (Nov 9, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> What a brain-numbingly stupid post.


 Upset, because somebody is stealing your modus operandi?


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Nov 9, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> In Glasgow iof all places! I know much of this is simply labour attempts to scare the horses to get the vote out, but...
> 
> BNP set to advance in ex-Speaker Martin's Glasgow seat
> 
> ...



Perhaps the recession is bringing this out more in people, the seeds have been sowed by the establishment for years.


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## butchersapron (Nov 9, 2009)

Gardening analogy doesn't work - they were flowering years before 'the crisis'.


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## TremulousTetra (Nov 9, 2009)

treelover said:


> It's funny, but Nl apparatchiks, who have spent years attacking the poor, , launching and supporting illegal wars, privatising, attacking asylum seekers and migrants who for many years they encouraged, etc are clinging onto the only bit of radicalism they have left: their 'anti-fascism'/anti-racism: I remember going in MP Richard Caborn's Office, there were no pictures of his Communist father, none of his days working in the Steel Industry, the Miners Strike, etc, but a massive one of him meeting Nelson Mandela.



Excellent post.


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## love detective (Nov 9, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> Very late 2008 accounts finally published. Quick skim shows that membership figures not included this time, but that income from membership subs is down by crica 50% (subs may have been reduced or re-organised for tax purposes, don't know, i think the 'membership branch dividend' might possibly be something to do with this). Donations and fund raising rose quite significantly. Significant reduction in commerial and campaign expenditure.



those accounts aren't the accounts for the BNP as a whole, their just some regional units/branches or something like that, the actual proper overall organisation accounts for 2008 are still overdue - if you look at 2007 accounts their overall income is about 750k, whereas in those 2008 accounts where it shows the prior year for comparison the overall income there for 2007 is about 250k,which i presume means 500k is generated from (or at least booked to) the central/head office BNP unit


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## Pickman's model (Nov 9, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> Very late 2008 accounts finally published. Quick skim shows that membership figures not included this time, but that income from membership subs is down by crica 50% (subs may have been reduced or re-organised for tax purposes, don't know, i think the 'membership branch dividend' might possibly be something to do with this). Donations and fund raising rose quite significantly. Significant reduction in commerial and campaign expenditure.


i can't believe that the ticket sales for the 2008 red white and blue festival were only £96. shome mishtake shurely?


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## The Black Hand (Nov 9, 2009)

Pickman's model said:


> i can't believe that the ticket sales for the 2008 red white and blue festival were only £96. shome mishtake shurely?



That's a laugh alright. Anybody done more research on how they can get away with lying in accounts?


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## butchersapron (Nov 9, 2009)

love detective said:


> those accounts aren't the accounts for the BNP as a whole, their just some regional units/branches or something like that, the actual proper overall organisation accounts for 2008 are still overdue - if you look at 2007 accounts their overall income is about 750k, whereas in those 2008 accounts where it shows the prior year for comparison the overall income there for 2007 is about 250k,which i presume means 500k is generated from (or at least booked to) the central/head office BNP unit



No, they are, they go through the regional accounting unit, which is itself a dodge.


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## love detective (Nov 10, 2009)

nah i'm not sure that's the case

if you look at the accounts lodged with the EC for 2007 there are two sets, one being the regional accounting unit one (which is the equivalent of these 2008 ones) - and then one set for the party overall as a whole - for 2007 they had total income of about £600k (I said 750k above in error as was quoting from memory) and back in april this year griffin said



> The BNP’s central accounting unit’s draft accounts for 2008 show a leap in our national operational income to well over £1 million last year. This year we are on course to do even better.



http://bn*p.org.uk/2009/04/bnp-expansion-programme-—-now-it’s-the-turn-of-treasury/

so all that doesn't stack up against a total income shown in these accounts of only £211k

also in those accounts membership subs for the whole year are stated as just under two thousand pounds! there's no way that represents the whole organisation - I presume all subs are paid to, and booked in, the central unit - this would also explain the very small amounts showing for the RWB stuff as well


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## butchersapron (Nov 10, 2009)

Yes, my mistake, you're right - which would explain a lot of the (apparent and baffling) changes i noted in my post, as well as the reorganisation of their finance team into a 'treasury' dept earlier this year amidst claims they'd reached operational income of over a million quid by Griffin at the time.


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## JimPage (Nov 10, 2009)

On matters BNP-  watch out for their rersult in Glasgow NE this thursday. 

A few papers are talking up their chanches of coming third- which they wont-but I would have money on them beating either Toriies or Liberals here- and possibly saving their deposit

Griffin in news again today for visiting Wooton Bassett to see the servicemens coffins come home


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Nov 10, 2009)

JimPage said:


> On matters BNP-  watch out for their rersult in Glasgow NE this thursday.
> 
> A few papers are talking up their chanches of coming third- which they wont-but I would have money on them beating either Toriies or Liberals here- and possibly saving their deposit
> 
> Griffin in news again today for visiting Wooton Bassett to see the servicemens coffins come home




Yes, papers talking this up again. The Indie on Sunday should know better. They ran an item on the bye-election focussing almost exclusively on the fact that one small-ish party might break 5%. WTF is that about?


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## The Black Hand (Nov 11, 2009)

LOOK at this, BNP total failure here

Birmingham City MBC, Sutton New Hall
Thursday 22 October 2009 12:00

Con 1633 (58.3; -8.8)
Lab 505 (18.0; +5.6)
UKIP 344 (12.3; +12.3)
LD Robert Hardware 319 (11.4; +2.7)
[Green (0.0; -3.5)]
[BNP (0.0; -8.3)]
Majority 1128
Turnout 15.93%
Con hold
Percentage change is since May 2008.


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## The Black Hand (Nov 11, 2009)

News gets better, another BNP total failure

Hertfordshire CC, Borehamwood North
Thursday 22 October 2009 12:00

Con 982 (44.5; +5.5)
Lab 928 (42.1; +13.2)
LD Robert Gamble 170 (7.7; -4.6)
Ind 125 (5.7; -0.1)
[BNP (0.0; -14.1)]
Majority 54
Turnout 18.5%
Con hold
Percentage change is since June 2009.


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## revlon (Nov 11, 2009)

2 mep's and question time?


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## The Black Hand (Nov 11, 2009)

revlon said:


> 2 mep's and question time?



These do not effect the localised BNP *total failures* I indicated.


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## treelover (Nov 11, 2009)

Turnout 15%! how on earth can you extrapolate anything from that?


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## revlon (Nov 11, 2009)

The Black Hand said:


> These do not effect the localised BNP *total failures* I indicated.



i know, question is why were they failures despite their european election success and question time raising their profile? 

Maybe they didn't field candidates on this particular occasion?


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## The Black Hand (Nov 11, 2009)

treelover said:


> Turnout 15%! how on earth can you extrapolate anything from that?



BNP 0% - that's a figure I like and some cheer in the  doom and gloom.


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## The Black Hand (Nov 11, 2009)

treelover said:


> Turnout 15%! how on earth can you extrapolate anything from that?


 Who did?


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## FreddyB (Nov 11, 2009)

The Black Hand said:


> LOOK at this, BNP total failure here
> 
> Birmingham City MBC, Sutton New Hall
> Thursday 22 October 2009 12:00
> ...


The surprise there is that anyone voted Labour. It's a very affluent area and has been Tory since the dawn of time. It's in Norman Fowlers old constituency. I suspect the only reason the BNP stood there is that for a few years now they've made a big thing of contesting all 40 Birmingham wards.


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## revlon (Nov 11, 2009)

FreddyB said:


> The surprise there is that anyone voted Labour. It's a very affluent area and has been Tory since the dawn of time. It's in Norman Fowlers constituency. I suspect the only reason the BNP stood there is that for a few years now they've made a big thing of contesting all 40 Birmingham wards.



they didn't stand


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## The Black Hand (Nov 11, 2009)

revlon said:


> they didn't stand



They did the time b4 and that is what he meant.


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## butchersapron (Nov 12, 2009)

BNP help form the European Alliance of National Movements in the European parliament, Didn't manage to get the 25 members needed to be recognised as a bloc and recieve bloc funding, but do qualify for £10 million as a pan-european grouping.


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## JimPage (Nov 12, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> BNP help form the European Alliance of National Movements in the European parliament, Didn't manage to get the 25 members needed to be recognised as a bloc and recieve bloc funding, but do qualify for £10 million as a pan-european grouping.



As expected with membership, with the FPOfrom Austria to be joining soon adding to the number of MEP`s- and an unspecified Ukranian Nationalist group joining as well.


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## durruti02 (Nov 12, 2009)

The Black Hand said:


> News gets better, another BNP total failure
> 
> Hertfordshire CC, Borehamwood North
> Thursday 22 October 2009 12:00
> ...



 they didn't stand .. it does not mean their support has gone. good news they couldn't get a candidate together though 

http://www.thisislocallondon.co.uk/news/567379.bnp_target_borehamwood/


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## butchersapron (Nov 12, 2009)

Don't bother with that month old nonsense. I posted the relavent stats of returns since june either on this thread or elsewhere. I'll find and repost.


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## The Black Hand (Nov 13, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> Don't bother with that month old nonsense. I posted the relavent stats of returns since june either on this thread or elsewhere. I'll find and repost.



Bizarre. It is not intellectual to ignore evidence.


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## The Black Hand (Nov 13, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> they didn't stand .. it does not mean their support has gone. good news they couldn't get a candidate together though
> 
> http://www.thisislocallondon.co.uk/news/567379.bnp_target_borehamwood/



I agree, there will be people who vote BNP as I have long said - the 'enlarged right wing pool thesis'. I have also said that the linear narrative model of 'how good the BNP are progressing' doesn't fit reality, and this is evidence of that.


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## Jeff Robinson (Nov 13, 2009)

Nazi boy's at it again:



> Mark Collett, the BNP's publicity director, created a spoof of the Pac-Man computer game with the caption "Sortin' out Muslims since 1980" and has uploaded it to a number of websites.
> 
> The image, which shows caricatures of Muslim women in veils being attacked by the computer character, is accompanied by a personal message from Collett on his Facebook page.
> 
> He wrote: "Pac-Man knows how to deal with Muslims! I made this, I hope it makes you all smile! Feel free to send it out and spread the joy."



Here


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## chazegee (Nov 13, 2009)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Nazi boy's at it again:
> 
> 
> 
> Here



Fucking hell, give the man a pint of Black man's piss.


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Nov 13, 2009)

I'm not generally over enthusiastic about intellectual property, but I hope Namco sue him into a blackhole. Collet says it is "a joke", but seeing as he is flogging T Shirts with this stolen design I doubt the lawyers will see it that way.


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## The Black Hand (Nov 13, 2009)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> I'm not generally over enthusiastic about intellectual property, but I hope Namco sue him into a blackhole. Collet says it is "a joke", but seeing as he is flogging T Shirts with this stolen design I doubt the lawyers will see it that way.



Well said that man.


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## The39thStep (Nov 13, 2009)

The Black Hand said:


> Well said that man.



Anti fascism as copyright issue ?


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## The Black Hand (Nov 14, 2009)

The39thStep said:


> Anti fascism as copyright issue ?



 DOH! FFS, stop stoking your 'I'm more political than thou bonfire', it was old left crap then, and its old left crap now.


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## JimPage (Nov 14, 2009)

Understand BNP conference has voted YES to non- white members today


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## butchersapron (Nov 27, 2009)

First time out in Halewood South, Knowlesy - picked up 1% in the gen area in the GE. 8.6% for Tony 'it's hammer time' Ward last night.  The United Socialist Party who had been steadily building a good vote collapsed. Interesting in the wider picture that this is a labour win (gain even) on an increased vote combined with a falling turnout.

Allan Harvey Labour 607 - 46.0%
Tommy Morretta Liberal Democrat 486 - 36.8%
Tony Ward British National Party 113 - 8.6%
Carl Robert Cross Conservative 32 - 2.4%
Eric Arthur McIntosh TUSP 52 - 3.9%
Andy Thompson Independent 30 - 2.3%

Turnout: 23.06%


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## The Black Hand (Nov 27, 2009)

Doncaster MBC, Rossington
Thursday 19 November 2009 12:00

Lab 637 (26.9; +1.1)
Others 1553 (65.6; +5.3) (English Democrats 551, 3 Independents 506 / 420 / 76 )
BNP 101 (4.3; +4.3)
LD Robert Mitchell 78 (3.3; +3.3)
[Con (0.0; -13.9)]
Majority 86
Turnout 24.6%
*Lab gain from Ind.*
Percentage change is since May 2008.


This could be a BNP 1st time out (i do not know) in an area with a fascist mayor

Interesting result here from this former pit village. English democrats vastly outscored BNP as did the independents.


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## butchersapron (Nov 27, 2009)

Looks to me that the good EDP vote was in part due to the non-fascist mayor working out a deal with his tory mates for them not to stand for the first time in decades and the normal 3-400 or so tories simply switching vote as well as the EDP's ongoing attempts at building a bases proving at least as successful as the BNP's.


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## The Black Hand (Nov 27, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> Looks to me that the good EDP vote was in part due to the non-fascist mayor working out a deal with his tory mates for them not to stand for the first time in decades and the normal 3-400 or so tories simply switching vote as well as the EDP's ongoing attempts at building a bases proving at least as successful as the BNP's.



I thought he was a fascist Apron, or certainly had fascist pedigree. Have you a link which gives information?


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## butchersapron (Nov 27, 2009)

He's an idiot, he's not a fascist and i'm not going to get into a debate that will only help to further empty the term of any real meaning.


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## The Black Hand (Nov 27, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> He's an idiot, he's not a fascist and i'm not going to get into a debate that will only help to further empty the term of any real meaning.



Did you read what I said? I asked for a link not a debate. Your hyper vigilance is not good for you, you need to calm down.


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## butchersapron (Nov 27, 2009)

For anyone who does care, the donny mayor is Peter Davies - a former Labour Party, tory party and UKIP member - currently in the English democrats. You all know the type, far right, FA, rah rah britain etc. His son is a current tory MP. He's a prat, but he's not a fascist.


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## The Black Hand (Nov 27, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> For anyone who does care, the donny mayor is Peter Davies - a former Labour Party, tory party and UKIP member - currently in the English democrats. You all know the type, far right, FA, rah rah britain etc. His son is a current tory MP. He's a prat, but he's not a fascist.



Thankyou. Though providing your opinion with everything gets tiresome for some readers, I asked for independent information without prejeudice preferably, so people can make up their own minds.


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## JimPage (Nov 27, 2009)

On electoral matters- BNP still saying 200 candiDtes for the General election in 2010 of this 23 in Scotland and 20 in South East ( which in their regional organisation means counties to south and west of London)

A few details about one are they have annouced where they stand- east midlands- as an indicator of where they will expand to in general election terms. In addition to the seats covering towns such as Boston, Ilkeston, Heanor and Coalville - fighting Leicester West, Nottingham North, Derby North and Northampton North - all of the big regionals cities. Also fighting Grantham, Kettering and Loughborough


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## The39thStep (Nov 27, 2009)

The Black Hand said:


> Thankyou. Though providing your opinion with everything gets tiresome for some readers, I asked for independent information without prejeudice preferably, so people can make up their own minds.



Google it yourself then


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## durruti02 (Nov 28, 2009)

Rossington 09 
Richard Lawrence Cooper-Holmes - Labour - 637 votes
John Cooke - Independent - 506 votes
Mick Cooper - English Democrats - 551 votes
Terry Wilde - Independent - 420 votes
Dave Owen - British National Party - 101 votes
Robert Mitchell - Liberal Democrats - 78 votes
George Sheldon - Independent - 76 votes


and 08 ROSSINGTON
Jackie Clark (In) 1,368
John Quinn (L) 822
John Cooke (NP) 551
Kathleen Beard (C) 442
No change 


and 07 

"LABOUR re-took one of its traditional strongholds when the Community Group's John Cooke lost his Rossington seat.
Rossington: Andrea Milner* (Lab) - 1,049; John Cooke (Community Group) - 758; Terry Wilde (ind) - 741; Kathleen Margaret Beard (Con) - 320; George Sheldon (Ind) - 217.  "

and mayor election Peter Davies (English Democrats) 16961
Stuart Exelby (Community Group) 2152
Michael Felse (Independent) 2051
Sandra Holland (Labour) 16549
Mick Maye (Independent) 17150
Dave Owen (BNP) 8175
Jonathan Wood (Conservative) 12198


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## JimPage (Nov 28, 2009)

Griffin will be one of 3 British MEPs at the Copenhagen Climate Change conference- deep joy


----------



## durruti02 (Nov 28, 2009)

...


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## treelover (Nov 28, 2009)

I know Terry Wilde, he is a really decent guy, lots of integrity, i hate to say it but it looks like Labour are on the up. They are i imagine, now sending the 'right signals'to the WWC, established BEM's, etc.


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## butchersapron (Nov 29, 2009)

JimPage said:


> Griffin will be one of 3 British MEPs at the Copenhagen Climate Change conference- deep joy



He's not just utrning up off his own bat either - he's there as an official representative of the EU parliament's environmental committee.


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## The39thStep (Nov 29, 2009)

Apparantly climate change is the new anti first world marxism


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## The Black Hand (Dec 1, 2009)

The39thStep said:


> Google it yourself then



If somebody is talking they should have evidence, I asked for it. None came.


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## The Black Hand (Dec 1, 2009)

I have done some calculations with evidence gleaned from the Association of Liberal Democratic councillors website.

They report 101 wards have been contested since 27th August 2009 up to the 26th of November 2009.

The BNP stood in 21 wards, their average % in these wards was 10.576% However if you minus the Boston case, as an exceptional case (a large vote was split between everybody in this case) then their average vote is 9.22%.

The average BNP vote cast spread over all 101 wards is 2.199%.

The BNP did NOT contest SIX wards where they had stood before, which is a *high drop out/turnover rate*, of approx 25% of the 27 wards where the BNP have had some presence.

If you count these wards with the 21 wards they stood in, then their vote has risen .4%. Again, minusing the exceptional Boston case where their vote was artificially inflated then *their voting trend is DOWNWARDS*, -0.2423%. Which is an interesting statistic.


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## TremulousTetra (Dec 1, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> He's not just utrning up off his own bat either - he's there as an official representative of the EU parliament's environmental committee.


 apparently to stop the New World Order creating an anti human state.


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## The39thStep (Dec 1, 2009)

The Black Hand said:


> I have done some calculations with evidence gleaned from the Association of Liberal Democratic councillors website.
> 
> They report 101 wards have been contested since 27th August 2009 up to the 26th of November 2009.
> 
> ...



what exactly is the point of calculating their average vote by including wards where they haven't stood? Or have I misunderstood?


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## butchersapron (Dec 1, 2009)

The point is so you can say look their vote is both tiny and plummeting. It's propoganda not analysis.


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## The Black Hand (Dec 1, 2009)

"what exactly is the point of calculating their average vote by including wards where they haven't stood? Or have I misunderstood?" 





butchersapron said:


> The point is so you can say look their vote is both tiny and plummeting. It's propoganda not analysis.



No. Your 'answer' does not make sense. The plummeting part is the vote in 27 wards where they have stood before and are standing, areas where they supposedly have 'strength'. So to give a real assesment of the BNP vote you include those wards where they have stood previously and where they are not now. Those lost wards and lost votes ARE weakness, and it is *propaganda and not analysis* to pretend otherwise (only non scientific idiots would do that - Bye bye Butchers block).


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## butchersapron (Dec 1, 2009)

That's got to be a first TBH putting someone else on ignore!


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## The Black Hand (Dec 1, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> That's got to be a first TBH putting someone else on ignore!



I have always ignored you.


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## The Black Hand (Dec 2, 2009)

The39thStep said:


> what exactly is the point of calculating their average vote by including wards where they haven't stood? Or have I misunderstood?



You cannot argue that them NOT standing is politically neutral for them. It is arguable that it harms their chances and their appeal, the same as an often used argument against the left of jumping in and jumping out of areas.

Of the 21 wards where the BNP stood, they stood for the first time (i know of and without checking ward histories beyond the last vote) in 11 of them. 

Thus their vote went up in these wards 11 times. That said their overall vote rise included 2 wards where their vote went up (including Boston), so overall their vote rose in 13 wards out of the 21. Their vote was static in 3 wards, and went DOWN in 5. 

Thus in the seats where they have stood previously and stand now, that is 10 altogether. In these seats their vote went down in 5 (50%), static in 3 (30%) and up in only 2 (20%), if you include seats where they have stood previously and do not stand now (6) with this, their fall in votes is even more dramatic - down in 11 out of 16. This is significant, cos it suggests high levels of disenchanchment with the BNP after the initial 'honeymoon period' of the first outing.

TO recap, I think adding up all wards where they have stood previously and do not stand now, should count in an overall assesment of the strength or weakness of the BNP vote. Thus in those 27 wards, their vote went up in 13 (48.148%), down in 11 (40.7407%) and static in 3 (11.1111%). Things do not always go the BNPs way, far from it.


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## The Black Hand (Dec 2, 2009)

The Black Hand said:


> their fall in votes is even more dramatic - down in 11 out of 16. This is significant, cos it suggests high levels of disenchanchment with the BNP after the initial 'honeymoon period' of the first outing.



Btw the BNP vote down in 11 out of 16 percentage is *68.75%!!*


----------



## treelover (Dec 2, 2009)

Whether the BNP vote is increasing or decreasing,they are still doing far better than the miniscule vote/support the Far Left gets, the hubris never fails to amaze me.


----------



## JimPage (Dec 3, 2009)

More first time seats for them- Nottingham South, Gedling, Corby and Bosworth. 

All 3 newcastle seats being fought this time round


----------



## Rod Sleeves (Dec 3, 2009)

JimPage said:


> All 3 newcastle seats being fought this time round



That will be interesting, the Labour candidate in Newcastle Central which is a pretty safe Labour seat is a black woman with an African name.


----------



## The Black Hand (Dec 7, 2009)

*New important BNP research covering 310 wards*

BNP Voting levels 2009
All rights reserved​
This is independent and autonomous analysis of the levels of the BNP vote from 16/10/08 until 27th August 2009.  This is complementary research to the first project covering 27th August 2009 until 26th November 2009, those results are available from the author and publicised elsewhere on the web.

Starting point.

The research starts out from covering all wards listed on the Association of Liberal Democratic Councillors (ALDC) website for the period in question (16.10.08 to 27.8.09), 310 wards in total. There is no ‘cherry picking’, and the rationale behind all statistics produced is explained.

The BNP stood in 73 of them, and results show they did not stand in 2 areas where they did last time out. Of these 73 wards, 45 of them were apparently first time out, as records show that they did not stand the previous time in these wards. Without checking all the histories of each ward I am going to have to assume these were first time out. 

In these wards the average vote was 14.226%. However, if you minus 5 wards where the BNP did exceptionally well (1st time out scores of between 28.1% and 42.6%), treat these as unusual and not normal, and therefore exclude them, this leaves 40 ward first time out results. The average BNP first time out scores in these 40 wards (the clear majority) is 11.4325%. So that leaves 28 wards where they had stood previously, in 6 (21.43%) of these wards there was no change in their voting level (where there is no evidence of a change in voting level on the records listed on the ALDC website I have assumed there is no change), in 9 (32.14%) wards their vote went up, and in 13 (46.43%) wards their vote went down. 

Of course, the BNP vote is going to go up whenever they stand in an area where they did not before, so in some ways these votes are misleading. I call this the honeymoon period, and of course some honeymoons are better than others E.g. In one area the BNP vote jumped from 0% to 41.3% in  Sevenoaks on 19/2/08, to win the seat. However, some BNP first time outs are derisory (1-3%), but these do not make the headlines. Often there are particular reasons why the BNP vote goes up, ie. For whatever reasons, some areas appear more receptive to the BNP than others do. Thus in the 9 wards where the BNP vote went up, it rose by an average of 4.85%, however, there were 2 dramatic rises in their vote in 2 of these wards.  If you exclude these votes then the average BNP vote rise is only 1.9%, thus these are completely marginal scores in 7 of the 9 seats where the BNP vote rose.

In 6 wards there was no reported change in BNP voting levels, but in 13 (46.43%) wards their vote went down. In these wards, the average BNP voting decline was -6.84%. If you add the voting decline in 2 wards where the BNP failed to stand, where they had the last time, then the voting decline is more dramatic -8.04%. The areas where the BNP fail to stand, where they had previously, ARE weakness, and so it should count in any realistic and serious assessment of the true achievement and potential of the BNP. This suggests that *the rate of voter disenchantment with the BNP is higher than the voting rises.* 

As a whole, even taking into account the areas where the BNP stand for the first time, and where their vote is as a result obviously going to rise, then *the rate of BNP decline is higher than their rising voting level* in percentage terms. The total voting rise or fall was taken from the 73 seats where they did stand, the 2 where they had stood previously and failed to do so this time out – the result for this is increasing by +7.51%. 

While this is some comfort for anti fascists, the steady rise in BNP voting levels across the country, by the shear fact that they are standing in more areas is obviously the most problematic issue. However, this must be tempered by these results, which display high levels of voter disenchantment with the BNP after the initial honeymoon period of the first outing. This is more significant, as it builds upon the first test project covering 101 wards that established the initial *‘BNP dramatic vote decline after the initial honeymoon period’* hypotheses. 

This second project, more comprehensive and more than 3 times bigger, covering 310 wards confirms the results of the initial pilot study. The results, covering all areas of the UK in the pilot study anyway, are very generalisable from this new study. Covering even more local and specific areas of the UK, also have the added strength of covering more than a year so any seasonal variations can be discounted, and added together the results are expected to confirm what is apparent with this study. The final briefing will be issued shortly, that adds together the results of these 2 pilot studies.

However, some areas do not conform to this overall trend, and these are the ones, which should be targeted by anti fascists if they are serious about damaging the BNP. These areas are the ones where the different theories and practice of anti fascism can be tested in the harshest conditions, and authentic working class politics discovered as a result.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Dec 7, 2009)

At a basic level you need to explain why you have discounted the top end scores while not doing the same at the bottom end; a scatter graph of all the results might help you. 

Louis MacNeice


----------



## The Black Hand (Dec 7, 2009)

Louis MacNeice said:


> At a basic level you need to explain why you have discoounted the top end scores while not doing the same at the bottom end; a scatter graph of all the results might help you.
> 
> Louis MacNeice



Ok louis


----------



## okgirl (Dec 7, 2009)

Hi, all I can add is, nowhere have I seen in BNP literature no darkies.  What I have read is they would like to encourage voluntary repatriation which is very different.  I believe Bernie Grant suggested something similar in the early 80's and he was Labour.


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## Ralph Masters (Dec 7, 2009)

okgirl said:


> Hi, all I can add is, nowhere have I seen in BNP literature no darkies.  What I have read is they would like to encourage voluntary repatriation which is very different.  I believe Bernie Grant suggested something similar in the early 80's and he was Labour.



are you the opne who's just about to get banned


----------



## Davo1 (Dec 7, 2009)

okgirl said:


> Hi, all I can add is, nowhere have I seen in BNP literature no darkies.  What I have read is they would like to encourage voluntary repatriation which is very different.  I believe Bernie Grant suggested something similar in the early 80's and he was Labour.



unbelievable!


----------



## audiotech (Dec 7, 2009)

okgirl said:


> Hi, all I can add is, nowhere have I seen in BNP literature no darkies.  What I have read is they would like to encourage voluntary repatriation which is very different.



Try reading their constitution. Rule 2(b) - commits the main aim of the party as “stemming and reversing the tide of non-white immigration and to restoring, by legal changes, negotiation and consent, the overwhelmingly white makeup of the British population that existed prior to 1948”. This is a programmatic aim that could not be achieved without forced deportations and violence.


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## The39thStep (Dec 7, 2009)

The Black Hand said:


> BNP Voting levels 2009
> All rights reserved​
> This is independent and autonomous analysis of the levels of the BNP vote from 16/10/08 until 27th August 2009.  This is complementary research to the first project covering 27th August 2009 until 26th November 2009, those results are available from the author and publicised elsewhere on the web.
> 
> ...



which areas?


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## TremulousTetra (Dec 7, 2009)

okgirl said:


> Hi, all I can add is, nowhere have I seen in BNP literature no darkies.  What I have read is they would like to encourage voluntary repatriation which is very different.  I believe Bernie Grant suggested something similar in the early 80's and he was Labour.


From the BNP constitution 


> The British National Party stands for the preservation of the national and ethnic character of the British people *and is wholly opposed to any form of racial integration between British and non-European peoples*. It is therefore committed to stemming and reversing the tide of non-white immigration and to restoring, by legal changes, negotiation and consent, the overwhelmingly white makeup of the British population that existed in Britain prior to 1948.



also;

Pretty crucial video this. Griffin says to KKK x leader Duke and to a meeting of white supremacists " our ideas, which are your ideas too"!



Quote:
Nick Griffin says "There is a difference between selling out your ideas, and selling your ideas. And the British National party is not about selling out our ideas, which are your ideas too, but we are determined to sell them. That means using the saleable words, freedom, security, identity, democracy,,, [.......] Where we control the media, perhaps then the British people will say " every last one must go". [....] *Instead of talking about racial purity, you talk about identity*."  

He clearly explains how he intends to decieve the electorate.


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## butchersapron (Dec 7, 2009)

The average in the 40 contests from june to october was 12.3%. In the 23 _previously uncontested_ seats they averaged 9.8%. In seats they'd _fought before_ they were averaging 15.5%.


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## The39thStep (Dec 7, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> The average in the 40 contests from june to october was 12.3%. In the 23 _previously uncontested_ seats they averaged 9.8%. In seats they'd _fought before_ they were averaging 15.5%.




are you serously suggesting that the greatest living marxist might be wrong?


----------



## The Black Hand (Dec 8, 2009)

The39thStep said:


> are you serously suggesting that the greatest living marxist might be wrong?



I do not know what he is talking about, perhaps he cannot follow the maths, but the evidence is clear to me, I have quoted the relevant part here;

"The BNP stood in *73* of them, and results show they did not stand in 2 areas where they did last time out. Of these 73 wards, 45 of them were apparently first time out, as records show that they did not stand the previous time in these wards. Without checking all the histories of each ward I am going to have to assume these were first time out. 

In these wards the average vote was 14.226%. However, if you _minus 5 _wards where the BNP did exceptionally well (1st time out scores of between 28.1% and 42.6%), treat these as unusual and not normal, and therefore exclude them, this leaves 40 ward first time out results. The average BNP first time out scores in these 40 wards (the clear majority) is 11.4325%. So that leaves *28* wards where they had stood previously, in 6 (21.43%) of these wards there was no change in their voting level (where there is no evidence of a change in voting level on the records listed on the ALDC website I have assumed there is no change), in 9 (32.14%) wards their vote went up, and in 13 (46.43%) wards their vote went down."

Of the 73 seats, 45 were first time out, 28 were seats where they had stood previously.


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## The Black Hand (Dec 8, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> The average in the 40 contests from june to october was 12.3%. In the 23 _previously uncontested_ seats they averaged 9.8%. In seats they'd _fought before_ they were averaging 15.5%.



I have just realised that this is your own statistical data that you are supplying Butch, apologies.


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## The Black Hand (Dec 8, 2009)

The39thStep said:


> the greatest living marxist



Cheers


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 8, 2009)

The Black Hand said:


> BNP Voting levels 2009
> All rights reserved​
> This is independent and autonomous analysis of the levels of the BNP vote from 16/10/08 until 27th August 2009.  This is complementary research to the first project covering 27th August 2009 until 26th November 2009, those results are available from the author and publicised elsewhere on the web.
> 
> ...



There's a word for people who cite themselves rather than other sources.

The word is "wankers".


----------



## The Black Hand (Dec 8, 2009)

ViolentPanda said:


> There's a word for people who cite themselves rather than other sources.
> 
> The word is "wankers".



I have been slagged off for citing too many sources before, it is a project in its own right, I don't get your point. You're being a bit OTT there I feel, but never mind...


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 10, 2009)

BNP defending two seats tonight - Camp Hill in Nuneaton (which has become a real growth area for them) and Loughton in Epping Forest (another growth area). Also one in St Helens in Hastings.


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Dec 10, 2009)

ResistanceMP3

That famous KKK vid certainly shows up the utter racism and planned lies of the filth, but none of it is that suprising to even the casual observer. My "favourite" bit is where he says "Where we control the media". The fascists have quite a few clueless useful idiot apologists at the moment, away from the race obsession it is this quote that shows them to be the totalitarian nightmare and is thus very useful indeed for exposing them.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 10, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> BNP defending two seats tonight - Camp Hill in Nuneaton (which has become a real growth area for them) and Loughton in Epping Forest (another growth area). Also one in St Helens in Hastings.



Lost the Nuneaton one (edit previous votes etc in later):

Labour 670
 BNP 478
 Con 275

edit, they also lost the epping forest seat to a residents group.


6% in Hastings -down from 8.8%:

Con 609   (40.7%)
Lab   550   (36.7%)
Lib Dem   210   (14.0%)
BNP   93   (6.2%)
Eng Dem   36   (2.4%)

English Democrat called Bridger - how fitting!


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Dec 11, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> Lost the Nuneaton one (edit previous votes etc in later):
> 
> Labour 670
> BNP 478
> ...



Tx for keeping us abreast, and the results are a fair relief too. A residents group beating them shows what can be done by good local people with some graft.


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## AKA pseudonym (Dec 11, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> <snip>
> 
> English Democrat called Bridger - how fitting!



sorry for possible derail... but who are the English Democrats?

btw: Glad too see the fash defeated, but they still got significent numbers


eta: Quick google, they is a BNP lite kinda party then....


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 11, 2009)

Anyone been following the Joe Owens campaign on alleged Seachlight activists in the BNP? Particuarly has it in for Molloy and others from Liverpool and the Walker Bros from the  North East.


----------



## Rod Sleeves (Dec 11, 2009)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> A residents group beating them shows what can be done by good local people with some graft.



Isn't one of the Resident's Groups in Epping run by that ex NF leader?

Ian Anderson http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_Anderson_(politician)


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## butchersapron (Dec 11, 2009)

Last nights results tidied up - they lost two seats and the vote fell in their 2nd time out in another ward. Not sure what the lost seats say, small parties whose councillors stand down within a year or so tend traditionally to get punished. They'll point to the fact that despite this their vote stood up very well against a labour fightback (more resources blah blah blah) in Nuneaton (which, incidentally has been mirrored nationaly over the recent local elections, lots of big swings to labour from lib-dem and tory including in wards in marginal Parliamentary constituencies) and a one-off protest vote in Loughton and were only 23 votes off  keeping the seat. 


*Camp Hill - Nuneaton*
Labour 670 - 47.1%
BNP 478 - 33.6% 
Con 275 - 19.3%

2008 result
BNP 675 - 36.1%
Lab 562 - 30.1%
Con 541 - 29%
Soc 88 - 3.8%

*Loughton*
LRA 257 
BNP 234 (30%) (2008 408/16% - multiple councillors elected, including another BNP one)
Lab 204 
con 75

23 votes shy.

*St Helen's Hasting*

Corello (Con) 609 (40.7%)
Ward (Lab) 550 (36.7%)
Tunbridge (Lib Dem) 210 (14.0%)
Weir (BNP) 93 (6.2%) (2008 268 8.8%)
Bridger (Eng Dem) 36 (2.4%)

English Democrat called Bridger - how fitting!


----------



## elbows (Dec 11, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> Lost the Nuneaton one (edit previous votes etc in later):
> 
> Labour 670
> BNP 478
> Con 275



Turnout was 27.6%

The previous results (May 2008) in that ward were:

Socialist Alternative 88
BNP 675
Labour 562
Con 541

The BNP & Labour candidates had changed from the last election, the Tory was the same, wonder what happened to his vote.

As mentioned a while ago, the reason for the by-election was the previous BNP councillor giving up his role, blaming work commitments. 

And for comparison, the County Council election results for that ward in June 2009:

Green 147
BNP 470
Labour 505
Con 401

edit - oops I was beaten to it by butchers.


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## JimPage (Dec 11, 2009)

elbows said:


> Turnout was 27.6%
> 
> The previous results (May 2008) in that ward were:
> 
> ...



A loss is a loss, so that is something to be grateful for, but the BNP % vote was only marginally down in Nuneaton 36.1% to 33.6% since 2008. 

One factor here was the SP not standing this time and their vote going to Labour. A neccessary step on the SPs part of course but  shows that the continuing price to be paid for keeping out the BNP will be the sacrifice of the left`s electoral ambitions in a number of areas. 

Epping Forest not so clear as BNP % vote marginally up from 2008 (30.2% to  30.4%) and as in Nuneaton, heavy tactical voting for best placed candidate to beat the BNP

Much Gibbbering nonsense from the idiots at Lancaster Unity and  Searchlight over this today. When are these sadcases going to give up and go away?


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## JimPage (Dec 11, 2009)

elbows said:


> Turnout was 27.6%
> The BNP & Labour candidates had changed from the last election, the Tory was the same, wonder what happened to his vote.



Clear tactical voting by tories to keep BNP out.


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## elbows (Dec 11, 2009)

Some background on the Nuneaton BNP candidate who lost. I think he is the local BNP leader, he was a pub landlord who has stood in other wards before and lost out very narrowly (eg by 16 votes in another ward in 2008). At some point he has stopped being a landlord and become a fulltime BNP official (I think).



> “I am very confident we will again be successful,” said Mr Deacon, a 43-year-old former town centre publican. “The people of Camp Hill supported BNP at the last borough council elections and I am sure they will do so again.
> 
> "I used to live in Camp Hill, I have lots of friends there and I can assure residents that I will give them 100 per cent commitment.”



http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/ne...-and-bedworth-borough-council-92746-25035365/


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## elbows (Dec 11, 2009)

Oh and the Labour candidate who won was a former Mayor who had lost his seat elsewhere in June 2008

http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/ne...abour-in-nuneaton-by-election-92746-25370489/


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## trevhagl (Dec 11, 2009)

The39thStep said:


> Anyone been following the Joe Owens campaign on alleged Seachlight activists in the BNP? Particuarly has it in for Molloy and others from Liverpool and the Walker Bros from the  North East.



has anyone got that book of his? Wouldn't mind a read but wouldn't give em money for it


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 12, 2009)

trevhagl said:


> has anyone got that book of his? Wouldn't mind a read but wouldn't give em money for it



Its out somewhere on the internet for free. Read with caution , you would have thought that it was the anti fash that lost the war rather than the fash


----------



## Joe Reilly (Dec 12, 2009)

Well Joey's perspective is likely to be limited - he never ventured outside Liverpool.


----------



## Fedayn (Feb 14, 2010)

BNP meets to vote on membership rule changes.

And the ECHR and their pals are outsmarted again...?!?!



> BNP leader Nick Griffin has said ethnic minority members will be "welcomed" if they back the BNP's aims.
> 
> He said: "They'll be accepted, they'll be welcomed, providing they're there to do the things that we want to do, and providing they accept and agree with our principles."


----------



## JimPage (Feb 14, 2010)

Fedayn said:


> BNP meets to vote on membership rule changes.
> 
> And the ECHR and their pals are outsmarted again...?!?!



Even if they vote today to allow black members, it is far from the end of this story- as there is implied racism in their constution as well as the stated racism- basically their constitutional pledge to oppose immigration is in itself racist


----------



## Fedayn (Feb 14, 2010)

JimPage said:


> as there is implied racism in their constution as well as the stated racism- basically their constitutional pledge to oppose immigration is in itself racist



Butthat's not the issue here Jim, the ECHR thought it was playing clever and hey ho their cleverness is fading. It's more eveidence that the bureaucratic attempts to 'shut down' the BNP are in any way effective in dealing with the issues that gave rise to their votes.


----------



## JimPage (Feb 14, 2010)

Initial reports from Green Arrow blog indicate the EGM may be going Griffins way- with just 2 of 400 people present speaking against him


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## Pickman's model (Feb 14, 2010)

JimPage said:


> Initial reports from Green Arrow blog indicate the EGM may be going Griffins way- with just 2 of 400 people present speaking against him


you're hardly going to ask a question of this magnitude if you don't know how people will vote before the meeting.


----------



## Fedayn (Feb 14, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


> you're hardly going to ask a question of this magnitude if you don't know how people will vote before the meeting.



Exactly.


----------



## Fedayn (Feb 14, 2010)

And unsurprisingly BNP votes to ditch whites-only membership rule

And Simon Darby makes clear that further amendments can be made should the EHRC aren't satisfied.



> He said Mr Griffin had the authority to make further minor changes to the wording if the EHRC was not satisfied.



Yup, that really showed the BNP.....


----------



## Clint Iguana (Feb 14, 2010)

Fedayn said:


> And unsurprisingly BNP votes to ditch whites-only membership rule
> 
> And Simon Darby makes clear that further amendments can be made should the EHRC aren't satisfied.
> 
> ...



i bet there will be queues of blacks and asians wanting to join now


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 14, 2010)

Easier to do this shit than deal with the political culture (and aims) that excludes people and that the ECHR are an integral part of.


----------



## Fedayn (Feb 14, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Easier to do this shit than deal with the political culture (and aims) that excludes people and that the ECHR are an integral part of.



Absolutely


----------



## Fedayn (Feb 14, 2010)

Clint Iguana said:


> i bet there will be queues of blacks and asians wanting to join now



Which is irrelevant, the EHRC aren't concerned with this.


----------



## audiotech (Feb 14, 2010)

Times newspaper journalist is ejected from BNP meeting.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8515453.stm?ls


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 14, 2010)

So what?


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 14, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> So what?



proof that the BNP is a nazi party etc etc


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 14, 2010)

Shut this filth down.

BNP problems because of this = near to none.


----------



## Fedayn (Feb 14, 2010)

MC5 said:


> Times newspaper journalist is ejected from BNP meeting.
> 
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8515453.stm?ls



And?


----------



## elbows (Feb 14, 2010)

Our politicians are about as tough on the causes of the BNP as they are tough on the causes of crime. Ignore the roots, urinate weakly on the shoots, then blame someone else when the ugly tree grows in spite of their 'best efforts'.


----------



## audiotech (Feb 14, 2010)

Fedayn said:


> And?



No platform for Times journalists obviously.


----------



## stethoscope (Feb 14, 2010)

Having just seen Griffin's gloating on the news just now about "how they now can't call us a racist party", I can't see that any of this has achieved much other than just playing into their hands


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 14, 2010)

BNP - not a racist party - the law says so.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Feb 14, 2010)

Weyman Bennett had a soundbite on the BBC News. He actually spoke very well.

There is a piece on Barnbrook in the Times today. It's a problem that Hodge lacks the neccessary credibility to fully galvanise the anti-fascist majority.


----------



## fiannanahalba (Feb 15, 2010)

Good to hear Weyman spoke very well. After his recent rhetoric hes clearly realised how close he was getting to being detained for 28 days and having the UAF and the Socialist Workers Party banned. This is a time for cool heads in the vanguard of the anti fascist cause. Well done Weyman.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 15, 2010)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Weyman Bennett had a soundbite on the BBC News. He actually spoke very well.
> 
> There is a piece on Barnbrook in the Times today. It's a problem that Hodge lacks the neccessary credibility to fully galvanise the anti-fascist majority.



Bit of an understatement even if you delete Hodge and insert New Labour


----------



## JimPage (Feb 15, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


> you're hardly going to ask a question of this magnitude if you don't know how people will vote before the meeting.



Understand that only 5 voted against the proposal, with 3 abstaining- with the clincher for many BNP oldtimers being a speech by Richard Edmonds in favour of the new membership criteria

Am sure there will still be some resignations over this, but probably from people who were on their way out in any event- probably in the direction of the NF


----------



## Fedayn (Feb 15, 2010)

JimPage said:


> Understand that only 5 voted against the proposal, with 3 abstaining- with the clincher for many BNP oldtimers being a speech by Richard Edmonds in favour of the new membership criteria



Edmonds claimed that John Tyndall, when he was leader apparently, made it clear that if the law said they had to change their constitution then they should. Given Tyndall still has a level of respect amongst theose most likely to oppose Griffin it would certainly have helepd. That Edmonds delivered this would also have been important.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 15, 2010)

Indeed. Edmonds delivering a vote on this tells you exactly what nonsense this ongoing 'BNP to split' stuff is.


----------



## JimPage (Feb 15, 2010)

Fedayn said:


> Edmonds claimed that John Tyndall, when he was leader apparently, made it clear that if the law said they had to change their constitution then they should. Given Tyndall still has a level of respect amongst theose most likely to oppose Griffin it would certainly have helepd. That Edmonds delivered this would also have been important.



Two of those speaking against were Paul Ballard and Bob Gertner, who come not from the political dinosaur period but from the period when fish came from the sea, and neither of whom hold office


----------



## Fedayn (Feb 15, 2010)

JimPage said:


> Two of those speaking against were Paul Ballard and Bob Gertner, who come not from the political dinosaur period but from the period when fish came from the seam, and neither of whom hold office



Both Ballard and Gertner are/were part of the old Surrey Border Front. Gertner has oft had his 'racial heritage' discussed with allegations that he's a touch Jewish.


----------



## JimPage (Feb 15, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Indeed. Edmonds delivering a vote on this tells you exactly what nonsense this ongoing 'BNP to split' stuff is.



And a warning not to believe anonymous comments on the North West Nationalist and Lancaster Unity purporting to be from BNP organisers saying the BNP is about to collapse. Yes, they have lost a few activists and organisers, and of half a dozen more leave I would not be surprised. Yes, the NF will get a boost.  

However, still 200 BNP candidates for the General Election


----------



## treelover (Feb 15, 2010)

Richard Edmunds voted to let ethnic minorities join the BNP, the world turned upside down indeed, I suspect all this will ultimately mean many more people will now consider voting BNP and yes inc some BEM's.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 15, 2010)

JimPage said:


> And a warning not to believe anonymous comments on the North West Nationalist and Lancaster Unity purporting to be from BNP organisers saying the BNP is about to collapse. Yes, they have lost a few activists and organisers, and of half a dozen more leave I would not be surprised. Yes, the NF will get a boost.
> 
> However, still 200 BNP candidates for the General Election



Standard Searchlight tactic is to forcast splits, collapses and rebellions in the BNP and I am sure that NF members supply a considerable portion of those rumours. The NF would need more than a few dozen refugees from the BNP to get a boost btw. It barely has a national organisation.


----------



## sabatical (Feb 16, 2010)

The39thStep said:


> Its out somewhere on the internet for free. Read with caution , you would have thought that it was the anti fash that lost the war rather than the fash



If that's a reference to the 1939 -45 war, the British and American fascists were on the winning side.

And as fascism is only the extreme of capitalism, then where exactly did the anti fascists win ?

Italy, a collapsed empire, so Mussolini, Germany a collapsed Empire, so Hitler, Russia a collapsed Empire, so Stalin, Britain an empire that was supposed to end by the mid 1970's, so Thatcher to Brown, a new imperialism, how long will the British and Americans be in Iraq and Afghanistan, the new colonial possessions ?

There are varying political views.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 16, 2010)

sabatical said:


> *If that's a reference to the 1939 -45 war, the British and American fascists were on the winning side.*
> 
> And as fascism is only the extreme of capitalism, then where exactly did the anti fascists win ?
> 
> ...



It's not. And in any case the BUF campaigned against the war.


----------



## sabatical (Feb 16, 2010)

The39thStep said:


> It's not. And in any case the BUF campaigned against the war.



Just re-read your earlier post, is this the book you meant ?

Free down load.
http://www.archive.org/details/ActionRaceWarToDoorWars

Can be read on line here.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/2426644/Action-Race-War-To-Door-Wars


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 17, 2010)

sabatical said:


> Just re-read your earlier post, is this the book you meant ?
> 
> Free down load.
> http://www.archive.org/details/ActionRaceWarToDoorWars
> ...



It is.


----------



## elbows (Feb 23, 2010)

In vague preparation for the election I started to look at what candidates will be standing in my area, seems like the BNP candidate is presently the remaining BNP local councillor (the other one stepped down and then the BNP lost the by-election).

Anyway he has been living up to stereotype by ranting on the internet because an Asian garage attendant was staring at his son who was wearing an army cadet uniform.

http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/ne...ds-by-controversial-blog-post-92746-25756932/



> He posted: “How dare this piece of filth look at my son like that while he proudly wares (sic) his uniform?
> 
> “If he has a problem with British Army uniform there are plenty of places on gods (sic) earth that he will not see it.
> 
> “He should move to one of them.”


----------



## The Black Hand (Feb 24, 2010)

BNP humiliated in Liverpool at election and their embarrasing behaviour;
http://liveraf.wordpress.com/2010/02/19/bnp-humiliated-in-fazakerley/

14% vote down to 8.8%. 

Good.


----------



## treelover (Feb 24, 2010)

Look forward to a 'terrible result' of over 8% for the Left....


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 24, 2010)

...and as clear a 'vote labour' call under the guise of 'class analysis' as anything anywhere. Disappointing.


----------



## The Black Hand (Feb 24, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> ...and as clear a 'vote labour' call under the guise of 'class analysis' as anything anywhere. Disappointing.



I like the design of the Liverpool anti fascists website though.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 24, 2010)

Looking at past results in the ward, the BNP being able to stablise a circa 10% of the vote in working class ward is not really a victory. Great that the votes gone down and well done to those who put in the time and effort to help achieve that, but that needs to be allied to something beyond a labour/lib-dem face off.


----------



## The Black Hand (Feb 24, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Looking at past results in the ward, the BNP being able to stablise a circa 10% of the vote in working class ward is not really a victory. Great that the votes gone down and well done to those who put in the time and effort to help achieve that, but that needs to be allied to something beyond a labour/lib-dem face off.



I prefer class struggle myself


----------



## invisibleplanet (Feb 24, 2010)

fiannanahalba said:


> Good to hear Weyman spoke very well. After his recent rhetoric hes clearly realised how close he was getting to being detained for 28 days and having the UAF and the Socialist Workers Party banned. This is a time for cool heads in the vanguard of the anti fascist cause. Well done Weyman.



Glad to hear that, esp. in light of some of the more recent public speakings which had me facepalming. However, I doubt very much your claim that SWP or UAF were close to being banned, or that Bennett was close to being detained for 28 days.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 25, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> BNP humiliated in Liverpool at election and their embarrasing behaviour;
> http://liveraf.wordpress.com/2010/02/19/bnp-humiliated-in-fazakerley/
> 
> 14% vote down to 8.8%.
> ...



Very confused website highlighted by the comrades section in which no borders , no2Id is listed along with the IWCA! Despite all the garnishing of 'working class unity against fascism' this is simply a don't vote BNP campaign with no political alternative.


----------



## revlon (Feb 25, 2010)

The39thStep said:


> Very confused website highlighted by the comrades section in which no borders , no2Id is listed along with the IWCA! Despite all the garnishing of 'working class unity against fascism' this is simply a don't vote BNP campaign with no political alternative.



the preamble's taken directly from antifa uk. 

It's actually the liverpool branch of defy-id. Are you saying iwca and defy-id are incompatable politically?


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 26, 2010)

revlon said:


> the preamble's taken directly from antifa uk.
> 
> It's actually the liverpool branch of defy-id. Are you saying iwca and defy-id are incompatable politically?



I am saying that the IWCA link and all the rhetoric about pro working class is window dressing for the politics of the liberal  left.


----------



## The Black Hand (Feb 26, 2010)

The39thStep said:


> I am saying that the IWCA link and all the rhetoric about pro working class is window dressing for the politics of the liberal  left.



You are an ultra leftist though so you would say that.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 26, 2010)

Result from last night, BNP moaning about the near 60% post vote:

South Tyneside MBC Primrose ward 

Ken Stephenson Labour 854 -42%
Pete Hodgkinson BNP 566 - 27.9% 
Aaron Luke Independent 213 - 10.5% 
David Alan Rice Independent 174 - 8.6%
Anthony James Lanaghan Conservative 124 - 6.1% 
Susan Heather Troupe Liberal Democrats 100 -4.9%

2004 result Lab 1065/1036/972 Con 634
2006 result Lab 917 LibDem 260 Con 180 Ind 178/142 Green 114
2007 result Lab 1066 BNP 504 Con 270 Green 221
2008 result Lab 1005 BNP 681 Con 382

So another 'victory' that turns out to actually be a consolidation of the BNP vote and the mainstream party vote.


----------



## treelover (Feb 26, 2010)

the far right have been prominent in Tyneside for some time though,I remember Kevin Scott and his troops marching right into the Newcastle Mayday Festival site.


----------



## The Black Hand (Feb 26, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Result from last night, BNP moaning about the near 60% post vote:
> 
> South Tyneside MBC Primrose ward
> 
> ...



Yes, but all you have is the radical gesture where you thumb your nose and scoff from an ultra left position. 

Actually this result has come as a relief for me, I feel a weight slightly lifting off my shoulders, and as Hercules/Jesus you know I carry a burdon

The BNP put loads of effort into that ward, 20 goons a night canvassing, and they've been defeated. 

Of course, this isn't the class struggle we would like to see and was a firefighting exercise, but now perhaps we can get on with more progressive politics and IMHO that means class struggle


----------



## treelover (Feb 26, 2010)

> The BNP's appeal to those left behind
> 
> Defeating the BNP needs more than a press strategy. It needs politicians to address their abandonment of the working class
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/feb/26/not-hard-grasp-bnp-appeal




Guardin article today


----------



## treelover (Feb 26, 2010)

> And there are those of who believe that this ignores the genuine anger and frustration of the disaffected in our society. We won't solve the problems of extremism unless we can give everyone a stake in the future of modern Britain. Ironically, the left seems more interested in berating its former voters than helping them.



Yup...


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 26, 2010)

treelover said:


> Guardin article today



That Expose The BNP is apparently UAF linked. They sent out a press release recently that was full of terrible factual mistakes, the sort of thing that allows the BNP not only off the hook but to turn the tables on those supposedly doing the exposing. Aside from the fact that the expose them model hasn't worked and cannot really provide the political alternative now required - in fact that approach has consolidated the BNP whilst offering the mainstream parties as the only way out.



> That, I think, is the risk of a new anti-BNP campaign, called Expose, to be launched next week by the group Unite Against Fascism (UAF). It promises "well-researched information" to "reveal the undemocratic and racist nature of the BNP". In its press release, one of Expose's launch speakers, the Cabinet minister Peter Hain, condemns the appearance by Nick Griffin on the BBC's Question Time, calling it an "outrage" and "circus" that "boosted" the far-Right party.
> 
> "Following Griffin's appearance on Question Time, where he made openly homophobic remarks," adds the release, "two gay men – Ian Baynham in London and James Parkes in Liverpool – were killed."
> 
> In fact, the attack that killed Baynham took place almost a month before Griffin's Question Time appearance. And though James Parkes was attacked after it, he was not killed. So much for the "well-researched information".



Have a check up on venture-capital marrying tory candidate James Bethell  author of that article. These aren't the people with answers and help for the w/c


----------



## The Black Hand (Feb 26, 2010)

Rise in hate crime follows BNP council election victories, this is good research and is what people have long suspected;

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/jan/15/hate-crime-bnp-local-council-elections


----------



## The Black Hand (Feb 26, 2010)

I like this point too;

"Debate on immigration is being suppressed?"

Probably the oldest trick in the book. The rightwing press talks about immigration every day. And yet commentators on the right maintain with a straight face that the debate on immigration is being suppressed. What they [and the BNP] actually mean is: those immigrants who don't agree with us are all bad.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 26, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> Rise in hate crime follows BNP council election victories, this is good research and is what people have long suspected;
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/jan/15/hate-crime-bnp-local-council-elections




It may be  good research but the Guardians conclusions are extremely suspect:



> The Guardian has analysed data from 11 police forces covering 29 wards across England where voters have elected BNP councillors in the past six years. In eight wards reports of hate crime rose following BNP election wins despite a wider decline across the police force area. It declined in 14 wards, in line with force-wide reductions, and there was no change in four and an insignificant amount of data in three.



In less than a third of these wards where the BNP were elected did hate crime rise. Hate crime covers crime categories from disability to religous to race and I would be interested as to whether they were incidents or actual crimes.

Most people who vote BNP do so because they have been canvassed by them and in many cases the BNP are the only party that has canvassed. Of course if 'anti fascism' cannot put up a political alternative it is left with just bleating on about the BNP being racist.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Feb 26, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Aside from the fact that the expose them model hasn't worked and cannot really provide the political alternative now required - in fact that approach has consolidated the BNP whilst offering the mainstream parties as the only way out.


Yeh your right.  There is only one way to oppose fascism, build an alternative.

 give up anti-fascism  There is no point trying to oppose this sort of thing.





The Black Hand said:


> Rise in hate crime follows BNP council election victories, this is good research and is what people have long suspected;
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/jan/15/hate-crime-bnp-local-council-elections


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 26, 2010)

How very typically dishonest  of you (and with an attempted racist-type smear for good measure). There's nothing at all in that article that argues racism or racial hate should not be opposed - in fact its the central argument is that official anti-fascism has failed to be able to effectively oppose these things, that the 'expose them' model, the covert support for labour etc is leading precisely to a situation that has allowed or even helped these situations to develop (the questions about the actual research posed above to one side for now). It's an argument, in fact concerned with what develping more practialy effective ways of dealing with what you say it argues doesn't matter.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Feb 26, 2010)

The39thStep said:


> It may be  good research but the Guardians conclusions are extremely suspect:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Most people don't vote bnp, fact. Why when the media, the Tories, and new labour has spent the last 13 years as a recruiting sergeant?  It's not surprising that they're doing better, it is surprising they have not done a lot better than they have given the media coverage etc..  Could the reason be most people dont vote for the BNP, be because they believe they are fascist and racist.  And they have this view in no little part, due to the 'bleating' of the anti fascist?


----------



## TremulousTetra (Feb 26, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> How very typically dishonest  of you (and with an attempted racist-type smear for good measure). There's nothing at all in that article that argues racism or racial hate should not be opposed - in fact its the central argument is that official anti-fascism has failed to be able to effectively oppose these things, that the 'expose them' model, the covert support for labour etc is leading precisely to a situation that has allowed or even helped these situations to develop (the questions about the actual research posed above to one side for now). It's an argument, in fact concerned with what develping more practialy effective ways of dealing with what you say it argues doesn't matter.



thread.
bollocks.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Feb 26, 2010)

I am all for building an alternative, but it isn't simply either or.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 26, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> Most people don't vote bnp, fact. Why when the media, the Tories, and new labour has spent the last 13 years as a recruiting sergeant?  It's not surprising that they're doing better, it is surprising they have not done a lot better than they have given the media coverage etc..  Could the reason be most people dont vote for the BNP, be because they believe they are fascist and racist.  And they have this view in no little part, due to the 'bleating' of the anti fascist?



So let me see -this 'bleating' has helped produce a million new fascists over the past decade or at the very least made no impact whatsoever on the process of developing these million fascists. You see, this is the heads-i-win, tails-you-lose nature of your argument. The largest, most widespread growth of the far right in British history can be dismissed simply by saying it would have been worse. 

Just how much worse you think it could be you never actually say - or more accurately, you make stupid OTT pre-emptive claims before elections so that when your approach fails yet once more (and that's becoming long long list) you can say thank god that our campaign prevented them achieving that stupid never-on-the-cards performance we tried to scare you with (also know as the breakthrough? What breakthrough dismissal of steady growth and national consolidation). 

And of course, if the converse happens - and it rarely does in national situations, not recently anyway, then  guess what, that's down top the exact same approach working once more. It's desperate head in the sand fantasy politics.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 26, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> thread.
> bollocks.



Is this an apology for your misreading of the argument contained in the article? The attempted smear? An admission? What exactly?


----------



## TremulousTetra (Feb 26, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> So let me see -this 'bleating' has helped produce a million new fascists over the past decade or at the very least made no impact whatsoever on the process of developing these million fascists. You see, this is the heads-i-win, tails-you-lose nature of your argument. The largest, most widespread growth of the far right in British history can be dismissed simply by saying it would have been worse.
> 
> Just how much worse you think it could be you never actually say - or more accurately, you make stupid OTT pre-emptive claims before elections so that when your approach fails yet once more (and that's becoming long long list) you can say thank god that our campaign prevented them achieving that stupid never-on-the-cards performance we tried to scare you with (also know as the breakthrough? What breakthrough dismissal of steady growth and national consolidation).
> 
> And of course, if the converse happens - and it rarely does in national situations, not recently anyway, then  guess what, that's down top the exact same approach working once more. It's desperate head in the sand fantasy politics.


Most people don't vote bnp, fact. Why when the media, the Tories, and new labour has spent the last 13 years as a recruiting sergeant? 

Could the reason be most people dont vote for the BNP, be because they believe they are fascist and racist?


----------



## tbaldwin (Feb 26, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> So let me see -this 'bleating' has helped produce a million new fascists over the past decade or at the very least made no impact whatsoever on the process of developing these million fascists. You see, this is the heads-i-win, tails-you-lose nature of your argument. The largest, most widespread growth of the far right in British history can be dismissed simply by saying it would have been worse.
> 
> Just how much worse you think it could be you never actually say - or more accurately, you make stupid OTT pre-emptive claims before elections so that when your approach fails yet once more (and that's becoming long long list) you can say thank god that our campaign prevented them achieving that stupid never-on-the-cards performance we tried to scare you with (also know as the breakthrough? What breakthrough dismissal of steady growth and national consolidation).
> 
> And of course, if the converse happens - and it rarely does in national situations, not recently anyway, then  guess what, that's down top the exact same approach working once more. It's desperate head in the sand fantasy politics.



I dont see how you can be so sure butchers. The growth of the BNP has not been stopped by the UAF etc. But you really cant be sure what effect theyve had. There are lots of people disillusioned with mainstream politics,lots who think the 3 main parties speak crap on issues like crime and immigration. Yet as RMP says most people completely reject the BNP. I dont think you can really be sure that Hope not Hate etc has not had a good effect.
I think your debate is based on your idealogical straitjacket and you try to fit facts into your theory every much as the ANL etc.


----------



## The Black Hand (Feb 26, 2010)

The39thStep said:


> A) It may be  good research but the Guardians conclusions are extremely suspect:
> 
> B) In less than a third of these wards where the BNP were elected did hate crime rise. Hate crime covers crime categories from disability to religous to race and I would be interested as to whether they were incidents or actual crimes.
> 
> C) Most people who vote BNP do so because they have been canvassed by them and in many cases the BNP are the only party that has canvassed. Of course if 'anti fascism' cannot put up a political alternative it is left with just bleating on about the BNP being racist.



A) Too quick towrite it off imho.

B) Say in approx 30% of areas where BNP candidates get elected there is a rise in Hate Crime, that looks statistically significant to me. Of course, the types of crimes, every nuance etc, would provide extra information but these headline figures look significant enough by themselves.

C) Your point is? Of course the left/working class movement is in a fractured and defensive mode, pointing out that there is no widespread left able to take on the BNP doesn't win Brownie points however. What matters is actually encouraging people everywhere to take up the struggle more than they are already.


----------



## The Black Hand (Feb 26, 2010)

tbaldwin said:


> I dont see how you can be so sure butchers. The growth of the BNP has not been stopped by the UAF etc. But you really cant be sure what effect theyve had. There are lots of people disillusioned with mainstream politics,lots who think the 3 main parties speak crap on issues like crime and immigration. Yet as RMP says most people completely reject the BNP. I dont think you can really be sure that Hope not Hate etc has not had a good effect.
> I think your debate is based on your idealogical straitjacket and you try to fit facts into your theory every much as the ANL etc.



I agree, the Butchers Boy has no evidence. 

I think, and there could be research work done on this, that there is every likelihood that the British anti fascist tradition that derives from WW2 and that is mobilised by Hope Not Hate and the Daily Mirror has had some effect.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 26, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> Most people don't vote bnp, fact. Why when the media, the Tories, and new labour has spent the last 13 years as a recruiting sergeant?
> 
> Could the reason be most people dont vote for the BNP, be because they believe they are fascist and racist?



I've just replied commenting on the circular nature of this sort of argument - you ignored the reply in favour of drawing another circle - demonstrating my point pretty effectively. 

Here's another point for you to ignore - maybe _more_ people are voting BNP because they see _their social conditions_ best reflected in the sort of semi-racist approach that the BNP's localist strategy relies on  - in which case what is the use of hammering home in expose expose (whilst their vote/influence/reach/normalisation continues on unbated) the fact that they're racist when it's not simple racism that's driving their support? Marxists used to be able to work out that social conditions are largely behind mass phenomena like this. 

Most people in this country aren't racist - they don 't need telling, _that fact alone_ should make you question yourself and your arguments when in such circumstances a racist party develops some serious, historically unprecedented, electoral support. Maybe, just maybe it's not what you think.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 26, 2010)

tbaldwin said:


> I dont see how you can be so sure butchers. The growth of the BNP has not been stopped by the UAF etc. But you really cant be sure what effect theyve had. There are lots of people disillusioned with mainstream politics,lots who think the 3 main parties speak crap on issues like crime and immigration. Yet as RMP says most people completely reject the BNP. I dont think you can really be sure that Hope not Hate etc has not had a good effect.
> I think your debate is based on your idealogical straitjacket and you try to fit facts into your theory every much as the ANL etc.



You seem rather sure of your opinion that the 'expose them' model has had some serious effect. What's your evidence? And please do try and square whatever you come up with with the historically unprecedented position the BNP has managed to develop for itself over the last decade.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Feb 26, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> I've just replied commenting on the circular nature of this sort of argument - you ignored the reply in favour of drawing another circle - demonstrating my point pretty effectively.
> 
> Here's another point for you to ignore - maybe _more_ people are voting BNP because they see _their social conditions_ best reflected in the sort of semi-racist approach that the BNP's localist strategy relies on  - in which case what is the use of hammering home in expose expose (whilst their vote/influence/reach/normalisation continues on unbated) the fact that they're racist when it's not simple racism that's driving their support? Marxists used to be able to work out that social conditions are largely behind mass phenomena like this.
> 
> Most people in this country aren't racist - they don 't need telling, _that fact alone_ should make you question yourself and your arguments when in such circumstances a racist party develops some serious, historically unprecedented, electoral support. Maybe, just maybe it's not what you think.



You may reply, but you don't anwer the questions.  Or,,,,,,,,, for that matter, seem to read what rmp tb tbh are saying.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Feb 26, 2010)

Another thing that bugs me about this "you can only build an alternative" arguement, is it's kow towing to the fascist agenda.  Seeing those who vote bnp concerns as prime, as some kind class vangaurd.  It seems to get things upside down.  We should build an alternative, but why start with the least progressive people?  Surely those with the most progressive ideas, including amongst them anti fascist's, will be the most fertile ground?


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 26, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> Another thing that bugs me about this "you can only build an alternative" arguement, is it's kow towing to the fascist agenda.  Seeing those who vote bnp concerns as prime, as some kind class vangaurd.  It seems to get things upside down.  We should build an alternative, but why start with the least progressive people?  Surely those with the most progressive ideas, including amongst them anti fascist's, will be the most fertile ground?



Oh my god, yet another point in the position articulated in the article you keep referring to that you've got 100% wrong, another misreading of its case that means you have yet another central point totally arse about tit. It doesn't argue that you should start _exclusively_ with BNP voters or supporters, or even that there's a need to. It argues that the BNP have been able to racialise social issues in a number of areas by concentrating on the factors (dishonestly and with no real answers to the problem) that are effecting the working class _across the board_, and that dealing with _these issues_ is how to deal with the section that are susceptible to the far-right - on the basis that a rising tide lifts all boats. It's emphatically not about just targeting BNP voters/supporters, but the working class as a whole. 

You really are a disgrace with these persistent misreadings and misreprepresentations - disagree with the arguments by all means, but understand them first, understand what they're saying.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Feb 26, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> You seem rather sure of your opinion that the 'expose them' model has had some serious effect. What's your evidence? And please do try and square whatever you come up with with the historically unprecedented position the BNP has managed to develop for itself over the last decade.



You seem rather sure of your opinion that the 'expose them' model has NOT had some serious effect. What's your evidence? And please do try and square whatever you come up with with the historically unprecedented concealment of its fascist position the BNP has managed to develop for itself over the last decade.




			
				ResistanceMP3 said:
			
		

> Pretty crucial video this. Griffin says to KKK x leader Duke and to a meeting of white supremacists " our ideas, which are your ideas too"?
> 
> 
> > Nick Griffin says "There is a difference between selling out your ideas, and selling your ideas. And the British National party is not about selling out our ideas, which are your ideas too, but we are determined to sell them. That means using the saleable words, freedom, security, identity, democracy,,, [.......] Where we control the media, perhaps then the British people will say " every last one must go". [....] Instead of talking about racial purity, you talk about identity."
> ...



If there racism and fascism does not deter voters, why do they conceal it?


----------



## TremulousTetra (Feb 26, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Oh my god, yet another point in the position articulated in the article you keep referring to that you've got 100% wrong, another misreading of its case that means you have yet another central point totally arse about tit. It doesn't argue that you should start _exclusively_ with BNP voters or supporters, or even that there's a need to. It argues that the BNP have been able to racialise social issues in a number of areas by concentrating on the factors (dishonestly and with no real answers to the problem) that are effecting the working class _across the board_, and that dealing with _these issues_ is how to deal with the section that are susceptible to the far-right - on the basis that a rising tide lifts all boats. It's emphatically not about just targeting BNP voters/supporters, but the working class as a whole.
> 
> You really are a disgrace with these persistent misreadings and misreprepresentations - disagree with the arguments by all means, but understand them first, understand what they're saying.


pot kettle.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 26, 2010)

I note that you, of course, don't ask mr baldwin for the evidence that he's derived his opinion from, nor provide any yourself - little wonder as you both agree with each other. May i ask _you_ then what evidence you have for your opinion that an 'expose them' model is now and has been working effectively to stop/retard the growth of the far-right _during a period in which the far-right has undergone an historically unprecedented growth and spread of influence? _ What is your argument beyond simply saying Griffin said he doesn't like being called a racist? 

Here's mine - you should know this as you've been moaning about this article for weeks on end now:

Exposing the BNP’s various criminal and _political_ records has had no discernible impact. In a country in which more than 40 per cent of all men can expect to have some form of criminal conviction during their lifetime, pointing out to voters in the sort of areas the BNP targets that a candidate has a conviction for assault or theft is likely to have a limited impact. If this were not the case we would today be seeing declining BNP votes and councillors not being returned post-exposure. But we’re not. We’re seeing a steadily rising vote and increasing re-elections.

This tactic has been pursued over the past decade on a scale never seen before. Every section of the media has got in on the game, every candidate has been hammering home their BNP opponents’ convictions. If this strategy was ever to make an impact it would have done so in these almost ideal conditions; instead the far right vote continues to rise. We have to conclude that this approach is ineffective.

Exposing past political views – for instance, BNP leader Nick Griffin’s association with Holocaust denial in the 1990s and earlier – has suffered a similar fate. Griffin has proved adept at moderating his most extreme opinions for the benefit of the media. He will now acknowledge the Holocaust as a historical ‘fact’ and, as he put it to the Observer in 2002, he claims that the only reason ‘people like me’ are not always ‘polite and reasonable’ on the subject is ‘frustration with how it is used to prevent any genuine debate on questions to do with immigration, ethnicity and the cultural survival of the western nations’.

In doing so, he can effectively neutralise the issue. If, despite his denial of Holocaust denial, an interviewer presses on regardless, it permits Griffin to turn the tables and ask if he or she wants to talk about politics. The same thing happens on a larger scale electorally

As with the exposure of BNP candidates’ criminal convictions, if this approach of bringing up the death camps and Nazi Germany was going to have any impact it would have done so in the especially favourable conditions of recent fevered mass media scrutiny of the BNP. This approach did find success in the three or four decades after the second world war, when a real folk memory of the sacrifices made by millions was still alive. Today, in different conditions, it cannot, has not and will not make the same inroads on BNP support.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 26, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> pot kettle.



We're really at the very outer limit of your politics at this point aren't we? Embarrassing.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Feb 26, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> I note that you, of course, don't ask mr baldwin for the evidence that he's derived his opinion from, nor provide any yourself - little wonder as you both agree with each other.



What he actualy said.





tbaldwin said:


> I dont see how you can be so sure butchers. The growth of the BNP has not been stopped by the UAF etc. But you really cant be sure what effect theyve had. There are lots of people disillusioned with mainstream politics,lots who think the 3 main parties speak crap on issues like crime and immigration. Yet as RMP says most people completely reject the BNP. I dont think you can really be sure that Hope not Hate etc has not had a good effect.
> I think your debate is based on your idealogical straitjacket and you try to fit facts into your theory every much as the ANL etc.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 26, 2010)

An interesting little fact series of figures - prior to 1997, i think the far-right in their entire historical existence had only ever saved a single deposit in a parliamentary election - recent results and deposits saved:

1992 - 0
1997 - 3
2001 - 5
2005 - 34

Now, does that support the suggestion that trying to associate the BNP with the nazis and the holocaust etc is becoming more effective or less effective  as we move further away from WW2 and the sort of post-war anti-fascism that had this approach as it's centre-piece? 

Please, please do say they'd have have 100 without.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 26, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> What he actualy said.



Er..yeah? And? In what way does that mean he's _not_ posted up any evidence to back up his opinion? In what does it mean that you _didn't_ ask him to provide evidence to back up his opinion whilst asking me to provide evidence?


----------



## TremulousTetra (Feb 26, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> We're really at the very outer limit of your politics at this point aren't we? Embarrassing.



Start reading, and addressing what people actualy say/ask you, instead of hissy fitting about things people haven't said.  That is what I meant by pot kettle.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Feb 26, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Er..yeah? And? In what way does that mean he's _not_ posted up any evidence to back up his opinion? In what does it mean that you _didn't_ ask him to provide evidence to back up his opinion whilst asking me to provide evidence?


I give up.  You cant even fucking read when it's hilighted.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Feb 26, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> An interesting little fact series of figures - prior to 1997, i think the far-right in their entire historical existence had only ever saved a single deposit in a parliamentary election - recent results and deposits saved:
> 
> 1992 - 0
> 1997 - 3
> ...


On a scale of one to 10, what you say was the scale of the media, Tory party and new labour campaign against asylum seekers, immigrants, muslim terrorism was in 1992?

Fearing for their seats, the Tory started this campaign in 1996ish, with one south coast editor refering to asylum seekers as human sewage.  There were calls for concentration camps for asylum seekers.  And even then I predicted this is where the campaign would lead, and ever increasing vote for the fascists.

You're right we do need to build an alternative as the real solution.  And we can do that amongst a real mass anti-fascist campaigning, mass strikes, mass anti-capitalism, amongst the masses of progressive people, when there is an upturn in the class struggle.  But!  Men make their own history, but they do not make it as they please; they do not make it under self-selected circumstances, but under circumstances existing already, given and transmitted from the past.  The minuscule left in the UK, cannot magic class struggle.  We need to understand defensive as well as offensive actions.


----------



## tbaldwin (Feb 26, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> You seem rather sure of your opinion that the 'expose them' model has had some serious effect. What's your evidence? And please do try and square whatever you come up with with the historically unprecedented position the BNP has managed to develop for itself over the last decade.



You seem to have completely misread my post. My point was that i dont really know how anyone could be sure. I think your as guilty as anyone as trying to fit facts to your theory.
And it seems remarkably contradictory to emphasise the effect or non effect of uaf etc and ignore wider social issues.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 26, 2010)

tbaldwin said:


> You seem to have completely misread my post. My point was that i dont really know how anyone could be sure. I think your as guilty as anyone as trying to fit facts to your theory.
> And it seems remarkably contradictory to emphasise the effect or non effect of uaf etc and ignore wider social issues.



I've argued above why i'm sure that it's had no or utterly minimal effects - you think i'm wrong and have said so a number of times. You ask me for evidence to support my case, i can point to electoral figures, membership figures, growth in national profiles, growth in number of candidates across all elections and in elected candidates across all but parliamentary elections, growth in number of media appearances, growth in national profile, recognition of leading figures, increase in importance in influencing the public political agenda, normalisation of their presence as part of the accepted political scene, increase in number of candidates re-elected, growth in territorial areas in which they've won elections or achieved good votes, consolidation of votes/branhce/members in areas where they've not won, huge increase in the number of areas where they've came second. You don't think this demonstrates that the expose them model is not working. What's your evidence?

And no, i've argued _the exact opposite point_, what have you two been drinking tonight? I argue that the 'expose them' model simply does not and cannot deal with the social issues that are driving the far-right vote that you mention - i even re-emphasise that quite clearly above. My point is that it's these social issues that need to be concentrated on not they should be ignored.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 26, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> On a scale of one to 10, what you say was the scale of the media, Tory party and new labour campaign against asylum seekers, immigrants, muslim terrorism was in 1992?
> 
> Fearing for their seats, the Tory started this campaign in 1996ish, with one south coast editor refering to asylum seekers as human sewage.  There were calls for concentration camps for asylum seekers.  And even then I predicted this is where the campaign would lead, and ever increasing vote for the fascists.
> 
> You're right we do need to build an alternative as the real solution.  And we can do that amongst a real mass anti-fascist campaigning, mass strikes, mass anti-capitalism, amongst the masses of progressive people, when there is an upturn in the class struggle.  But!  Men make their own history, but they do not make it as they please; they do not make it under self-selected circumstances, but under circumstances existing already, given and transmitted from the past.  The minuscule left in the UK, cannot magic class struggle.  We need to understand defensive as well as offensive actions.



Sorry, what point are you trying to make here? All i can see is you finally admitting that the BNP have increased their vote, whilst seemingly forgetting that you've argued that your favoured approach is actually retarding their growth. Yes, the tories helped create a climate where racism became more acceptable - and?

Odd how you can point out the nasty tories and their agenda setting attacks on asylum seekers that did much to racialise social  issues and that labour continued with, yet you welcome them into your broad anti-racist front. Is this what you mean by 'defensive struggle' then?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 26, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> Most people don't vote bnp, fact.


There's no fooling you, is there? 


> Why when the media, the Tories, and new labour has spent the last 13 years as a recruiting sergeant?  It's not surprising that they're doing better, it is surprising they have not done a lot better than they have given the media coverage etc..


You appear to be operating on the principle that "any publicity is good publicity", which only really applies to *targeted* publicity, and the massive majority of mentions the BNP gets in the media are neither targeted nor complimentary.  


> Could the reason be most people dont vote for the BNP, be because they believe they are fascist and racist.


Quite probably.


> And they have this view in no little part, due to the 'bleating' of the anti fascist?


Depends what you mean by "anti-fascist", really, doesn't it?
And whether you take into account that the anti-fascist view is disseminated in the same media that you say gives publicity to the BNP.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 26, 2010)

tbaldwin said:


> I dont see how you can be so sure butchers. The growth of the BNP has not been stopped by the UAF etc. But you really cant be sure what effect theyve had. There are lots of people disillusioned with mainstream politics,lots who think the 3 main parties speak crap on issues like crime and immigration. Yet as RMP says most people completely reject the BNP. I dont think you can really be sure that Hope not Hate etc has not had a good effect.
> I think your debate is based on your idealogical straitjacket and you try to fit facts into your theory every much as the ANL etc.



Do you believe that UAF and HNH are as effective in what they do as AFA etc were?
IMO one of the many reasons that the BNP's ranks have grown is that racists have nothing to fear from UAF etc.


----------



## tbaldwin (Feb 26, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> I've argued above why i'm sure that it's had no or utterly minimal effects - you think i'm wrong and have said so a number of times. You ask me for evidence to support my case, i can point to electoral figures, membership figures, growth in national profiles, growth in number of candidates across all elections and in elected candidates across all but parliamentary elections, growth in number of media appearances, growth in national profile, recognition of leading figures, increase in importance in influencing the public political agenda, normalisation of their presence as part of the accepted political scene, increase in number of candidates re-elected, growth in territorial areas in which they've won elections or achieved good votes, consolidation of votes/branhce/members in areas where they've not won, huge increase in the number of areas where they've came second. You don't think this demonstrates that the expose them model is not working. What's your evidence?
> 
> 
> .


No i think we both no what you posted does not prove calling the BNP nazis etc doesnt work.
It doesnt prove it all and you know it.
Its ridiculous to ASSUME that the anti approach your idealogically against has been all wrong.
Some of the ANL etc approach i have consistently argued against including when afa did it and i was a member.
AFA made many mistakes in the 80s whingeing on about the ANL pointlessly and hyping up the BNP which helped the BNP grow.


----------



## tbaldwin (Feb 26, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> Do you believe that UAF and HNH are as effective in what they do as AFA etc were?
> IMO one of the many reasons that the BNP's ranks have grown is that racists have nothing to fear from UAF etc.



Sometimes possibly far more due to increased numbers and resources.
I think that being ssociated with the holocaust and race hate is not a great recipe for success for personally..
AFA moved away from physical conforntation in the 90s and started doing anl style anti fascism anyway they acted macho but were preety ineffective.
Thats why some of us left and did our own thing.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 26, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> You seem rather sure of your opinion that the 'expose them' model has NOT had some serious effect. What's your evidence? And please do try and square whatever you come up with with the historically unprecedented concealment of its fascist position the BNP has managed to develop for itself over the last decade.


Why not? Griffin's "New Labour-isation" of the BNP has been a fundamental in widening its political acceptability (even if much of it is just window-dressing), as has been the policy of targeting council wards where their brand of argument plays best.
You imply that the "expose them" model has had a serious effect, but the main arguments used to substantiate this seem to be about  the slow growth of BNP membership and the volume of anti-fascist denunciations of the "Nazi BNP" during Swappie-satellite gatherings.



> If there racism and fascism does not deter voters, why do they conceal it?


It deters *some*. They conceal it so that it doesn't deter *more*. Even then, political circumstances, as well as social conditions for some people, are such at the moment that the BNP may be able to capitalise on discontent with th established political choices.
It's not a binary opposition of "fascist, not fascist", it's a bit more complex than that, whatever the shouty sloganeers tell you.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 26, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> pot kettle.



Syphilitic frying pan.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 26, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> I give up.  You cant even fucking read when it's hilighted.


Be fair though, he reads better than you write.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 26, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> On a scale of one to 10, what you say was the scale of the media, Tory party and new labour campaign against asylum seekers, immigrants, muslim terrorism was in 1992?


A couple of things:
New Labour didn't exist in 1992, and the Conservative party had been playing the immigration/refugee card ("asylum-seeker" hadn't passed in to common usage in 1992) since they took power in 1979.


> Fearing for their seats, the Tory started this campaign in 1996ish


They never stopped the campaign they started when they stole the NF's clothes in the late 1970s.


> with one south coast editor refering to asylum seekers as human sewage.


Actually, the editor of the chain of "Herald" newspapers in Kent.


> There were calls for concentration camps for asylum seekers.  And even then I predicted this is where the campaign would lead, and ever increasing vote for the fascists.


A blind man could predict that an anti-immigration rhetoric would normalise right-wing ideas. 


> You're right we do need to build an alternative as the real solution.  And we can do that amongst a real mass anti-fascist campaigning, mass strikes, mass anti-capitalism, amongst the masses of progressive people, when there is an upturn in the class struggle.  But!  Men make their own history, but they do not make it as they please; they do not make it under self-selected circumstances, but under circumstances existing already, given and transmitted from the past.  The minuscule left in the UK, cannot magic class struggle.  We need to understand defensive as well as offensive actions.


"The left" needs to understand strategy and tactics, and the value of not playing by the rules, but as the British left have for the most part not learned that lesson in the last 80 years, then I don't hold out much hope for anything but whining, paper sales and slogans.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 26, 2010)

tbaldwin said:


> Sometimes possibly far more due to increased numbers and resources.


I don't agree, mostly because they don't do the one thing that could fundamentally improve the spread of their message. They don't engage with communities on anything but a short-term basis.
Now, I don't know about you, but I never took to the whole Swappie-ite idea of dropping into an area on an irrgeular basis and "preaching to the natives", and while UAF *appears* to be building branches, they seem to be located in student areas...


> I think that being ssociated with the holocaust and race hate is not a great recipe for success for personally..


That depends on whether you can successfully convince people that you've changed, at least enough so that a wider voter base can fool themselves that you're not a fascist.


> AFA moved away from physical conforntation in the 90s and started doing anl style anti fascism anyway they acted macho but were preety ineffective.
> Thats why some of us left and did our own thing.



Which misses the point that you don't *have* to use physical confrontation to be effective, and that the implied threat of what AFA could or might do worked to warn off the more staid members of the hard-right parties.


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## The39thStep (Feb 27, 2010)

Some points for consideration:

British social attitude surveys indicate that the BNP success has been assisted by a 'perfect storm' whereby issues like the recession, immigration, crime, Europe have become dominant issues. Prominent in this is a view that does not accept the government and industries position that immigration brings economic benefits.

The  experience of many people is that their communities have changed with people from abroad coming in this has increased competition for services such as housing, health, schools etc and this churn in community weakens community cohesion and challenges host communities.

Identity politics, multiculturalism favoured by the government racialises bothy the funding for social policy and social policy itself and pitches people against each other on the basis of race.in a period where representatives are very often chosen on the basis of race that the BNP will put themselves forward a representing whites.

This and the absence of class politics and a pro working class political movement creates the space for the BNP to grow.

Whilst there may be some impact of labelling the BNP as Nazis , exposing criminals in their midst this is countered by the fact their communications strategy emphasises patriotism not Nazism. It is estimated that there are broadly three types of BNP members ; those with links to NF and old BNP , political traveller who have previously trawled through different political parties  and new members who are not likely to have been members of any other party and who genuinely do not associate themselves with neo Nazism.

The BNP has with some success built active local units with a presence that has more impact than the left very often focussing on local issues and community activism. They have done well in traditional working class areas, and unlike the NF attract first time voters, unemployed voters those who have stopped voting and now have voters for whom the BNP are their first choice. They are able to pick up votes on the doorstep because contrary to the BNP+nazis propaganda they come across as a serious political party with a fairly attractive agenda of what ever local issue  they can find plus  save the NHS, keeps jobs in Britain,anti globalisation, anti established three parties and their gravy train, , troops out of Iraq and Afghanistan . Add this to concerns on crime, recession, immigration and terrorism  and it is quite easy to see that they have a reasonable product.

Don't vote Nazi  without an alternative political choice enables the BNPO to come back time after time on the doorstep to challenge the motivation for this labelling as one that presents them as a victim of the three party monopoly in which they are misrepresented.

BNP voters analysis reveals that there is a strong correlation with age, low income, not educated to degree standard. The very people Denham initially said were dying out but are who are actually living longer and whose marginalisation with be further compounded by either a future labour or Tory govt.

The 'communities that have been left behind' initiative by the government is simply a short term attempt to dent the bNP vote and boost the labour vote in most areas. It is underfunded does not tackle the issues of employment , housing or public services ;it simply wants to communicate a 'different ' message by engaging with communities. There are no resources to meet the aspirations of those communities.

Despite infiltration, serious state disruption, a media that is anti BNP and no political allies the BNP are a successful political organsiation who have occupied the position of being the perceived fourth party. Ironically in a period where the left thought it would have that ambition.

A number of analysts have said that the BNP however need to break into new voter territory outside of the above if it is to be more than just an irritant . There is a school of thought that  any expected two horse race in the general election could squeeze votes for UKIP/BNP/Greens  but others would argue that the lack of credibility of the old parties creates space for 'new' parties.The  BNP are sitting on  a treasure chest through their success in the Euro elections.


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## audiotech (Feb 27, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Exposing the BNP’s various criminal and _political_ records has had no discernible impact. In a country in which more than 40 per cent of all men can expect to have some form of criminal conviction during their lifetime, pointing out to voters in the sort of areas the BNP targets that a candidate has a conviction for assault or theft is likely to have a limited impact.




Most voters do not attack immigrants, neither do they have arms caches in their homes and most voters are still disgusted by the BNP's association with fascism.

As for the 'don't vote BNP' strategy that is assumed to have 'failed'? Thankfully 98% of the population still don't vote BNP.

However, recently, a BBC reporter talking to the those voters of Barking who were considering voting BNP found that the only reason that they were doing so was because they had concerns about immigration. They had little, if any further knowledge about the BNP. So, important still to enlighten those about the BNP's hidden agenda.


...


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## frogwoman (Feb 27, 2010)

I dont think the expose the BNP strategy has no value - i know loads of people from all classes who would never vote bnp for that reason - but it cannot be the only method used.


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## audiotech (Feb 27, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> I don't know about you, but I never took to the whole Swappie-ite idea of dropping into an area on an irrgeular basis and "preaching to the natives", and while UAF *appears* to be building branches, they seem to be located in student areas...



I can only go on my experience of the ANL mk1 and knowledge of this sort of activity. Then we slowly built up anti-fascist campaigning locally. It wasn't irregular, but consistent over a long period. Coupled with RAR, we managed to build in the community we were active within, with regular events to draw people into activity. I assume this is the same strategy today with UAF and LMHR?


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## butchersapron (Feb 27, 2010)

Got a link for this? Of course, that's exactly what you'd expect to see when the BNP have been allowed to racialise what are social issues - exactly as i've argued has happened and is happening. Social issues appear through the prism of race, if you're so politically unaware that you can't see through that to the underlying issues then you're nowhere.

You've obviously not noted that i've been talking about the 'expose them' model in these posts, not the more broad 'don't vote BNP' model, a model that if not allied to a political alternative (as recently) offers little or nothing as well, beyond it's implicit vote labour/lib-dem/tory. And no, the fact that the BNP are merely a 4th or 5th party does not mean that this is a direct result of the approach that you favour. Argue why you think it is - and why has the vote risen to historically unprecedented levels combined with a whole range of other indicators of growth (some listed above) - and please don't take the rmp3 lazy route and just say it was the nasty tories (who are actually in his favoured anti-fascist vehicle) because that's irrelevant, if 'don't vote BNP' or the 'expose them' model works it would work whoever was setting the agenda. It either works or it doesn't - and today, in our conditions, the evidence strongly suggest that it doesn't.


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## frogwoman (Feb 27, 2010)

I don't think the lack of people voting bnp necessarily has anything to do with the UAF etc. Many people don't even know who the uaf are


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## butchersapron (Feb 27, 2010)

...and a hell of a lot more people most definitely _do_ know who the BNP are. It's a delusional claim frankly.


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## audiotech (Feb 27, 2010)

Is post #2927 addressed to me?

In local elections since June, the BNP has seen it's share of the vote fall in 16 out of 17 seats it has recontested.

The recent vote in Primrose (S. Tyneside MBC) on Feb 25 did see the BNP receive a high percentage (27.87%) of those that voted, however it's vote did fall by 5.06 percent, from 32.93% in 2008. Still a question mark about what happened there, as there were a couple of independents standing to consider?


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## tbaldwin (Feb 27, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> I dont think the expose the BNP strategy has no value - i know loads of people from all classes who would never vote bnp for that reason - but it cannot be the only method used.



Exactly Butchers arguement seems driven by ideological nonsense rather than common sense.
Nobody can say for sure what the effect of hope not hate etc has been.

In years gone by i was a very active militant anti fascist. I concentrated on the physical stuff and had little time for anti nazi propaganda and would have said it often helped promote the fascists to potential supporters.
I still think that it did in the 80s and 90s at times. 
But these are very different times for the BNP now they are now hoping to attract the kind of people who are" not up for a fight" not skinheads, not young football hooligans but people who have genuine concerns about policies on crime,immigration,jobs and housing.#
The ways to counter that are going to be different. There has to be anti propaganda and after all his many many posts on this thread i still cant really understand what butchers would like uaf etc to do.


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## butchersapron (Feb 27, 2010)

MC5 said:


> Is post #2927 addressed to me?
> 
> In local elections since June, the BNP has seen it's share of the vote fall in 16 out of 17 seats it has recontested.
> 
> The recent vote in Primrose (S. Tyneside MBC) on Feb 25 did see the BNP receive a high percentage (27.87%) of those that voted, however it's vote did fall by 5.06 percent, from 32.93% in 2008. Still a question mark about what happened there, as there were a couple of independents standing to consider?



Yes of course it is.


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## audiotech (Feb 27, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Yes of course it is.



I think it was Gavin Esler of the BBC reporting on Barking, quoted somewhere. Might have been on Lancaster Unity. Sorry I can't be more specific,


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## butchersapron (Feb 27, 2010)

tbaldwin said:


> Exactly Butchers arguement seems driven by ideological nonsense rather than common sense.
> Nobody can say for sure what the effect of hope not hate etc has been.
> 
> In years gone by i was a very active militant anti fascist. I concentrated on the physical stuff and had little time for anti nazi propaganda and would have said it often helped promote the fascists to potential supporters.
> ...



The massive rise in vote combined with a whole range of others factors indicating growing influence and acceptance suggests that it doesn't work - you _really_ need to say why these things (some of them listed above) _don't _indicate what i argue that they do, why they mean it's impossible to tell if the 'expose them' model is working or not - rather than just saying it's impossible to tell. 

Or ....how about this - how about having a think and then coming back telling us what you do think. After all, you've pretty openly said you think it works in previous threads - why so shy all of a sudden? Are you moving away from your previous position?

Common sense as opposed to ideological nonsense as well  Seriously make an argument, a political one if you can.


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## tbaldwin (Feb 27, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> The massive rise in vote combined with a whole range of others factors indicating growing influence and acceptance suggests that it doesn't work - you _really_ need to say why these things (some of them listed above) _don't _indicate what i argue that they do, why they mean it's impossible to tell if the 'expose them' model is working or not - rather than just saying it's impossible to tell.
> 
> Or ....how about this - how about having a think and then coming back telling us what you do think. After all, you've pretty openly said you think it works in previous threads - why so shy all of a sudden? Are you moving away from your previous position?
> 
> Common sense as opposed to ideological nonsense as well  Seriously make an argument, a political one if you can.



It as you say may SUGGEST to you that it doesnt work. But it doesnt prove it doesnt work. Not at all. But you just cant admit it. You so so want to be the voice of authority on this its sad.
You can not put yourself in the mind of everybody who comes across uaf propaganda,clewver as you think you are. Some people will be swayed by it not to vote BNP and others may be swayed to vote BNP. 
You ask if ive changed my position. I reconsider my political positions based on what i know. Times have changed since the 90s. 
There needs to be a political opposition to the BNP on that we all agree.
But what kind of opposition. I certainly dont think a tiny sectarian orthodox left group like the IWCA is the answer. Do you? Have you got involved in it yet?
I dont think there any easy answers. Politically id disagree often with the likes of MC5 and RMP but there both looking to do something useful and i respect that and am not as able as you to condemn them for their efforts.


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## butchersapron (Feb 27, 2010)

MC5 said:


> Is post #2927 addressed to me?
> 
> In local elections since June, the BNP has seen it's share of the vote fall in 16 out of 17 seats it has recontested.
> 
> The recent vote in Primrose (S. Tyneside MBC) on Feb 25 did see the BNP receive a high percentage (27.87%) of those that voted, however it's vote did fall by 5.06 percent, from 32.93% in 2008. Still a question mark about what happened there, as there were a couple of independents standing to consider?



Almost right, it's gone up in two. We need to integrate that with a wider picture though. Across that same period it's contested about 60 seats:

In seats they're contesting for the _first_ time they're averaging *11%*
In seats they're _returning_ to they're averaging *20.43%* 
Across them all they're averaging *13.68%*. 

Now what that might well show is that drops in seats they're re-contesting doesn't simply mean that they're being blown out of the water or losing support once they've been exposed - what it _possibly_ shows it that they've achieved a very good first time vote in many seats maybe on the back of a specific local grievance producing a protest vote (i.e the boston bypass vote), around 23-30%, and that in follow up elections rather then just disappearing after the various exposes and don't vote BNP campaigns they're consolidating around the 17-20% - in fact  average drop is just 4.8%. On top of that seats where they picked up around 10% first time round they're now better able to jump up to the same level. And the national average has not been driven down by these campaigns either, after a few years of being solidly at 12.3% it's now actually gone up again, despite a bad run of specific results. It means that their appeal is not being impacted on by these approaches and they're steadily developing a _broader_ base.


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## ViolentPanda (Feb 27, 2010)

MC5 said:


> Most voters do not attack immigrants, neither do they have arms caches in their homes and most voters are still disgusted by the BNP's association with fascism.
> 
> As for the 'don't vote BNP' strategy that is assumed to have 'failed'? Thankfully 98% of the population still don't vote BNP.


Quite a lot of that "98% of the population" don't have the vote, you prawn. 
And you're making a rather large assumption if you believe that a "don't vote BNP" strategy is chiefly responsible for the low (but increasing) BNP vote. It's far more likely to be down to a combination of social and political conditions, some of which are *currently* in flux and may therefore allow the BNP a greater "in" than previously.


> However, recently, a BBC reporter talking to the those voters of Barking who were considering voting BNP found that the only reason that they were doing so was because they had concerns about immigration. They had little, if any further knowledge about the BNP. So, important still to enlighten those about the BNP's hidden agenda.
> 
> 
> ...


And here's another possible example of what I call "reporter bias". If you approach someone in the street and/or on the doorstep and ask them a question such as "why do you support...?", you're likely to get the answer that they (the person giving the answer) feel will be most acceptable to you, regardless of whether it's actually an *honest* answer to the question.
I don't think you can draw any hard and fast conclusions from such relatively thin material.


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## ViolentPanda (Feb 27, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> I dont think the expose the BNP strategy has no value - i know loads of people from all classes who would never vote bnp for that reason - but it cannot be the only method used.



Well, it's mainly the *reliance* on "expose the BNP" that's being argued, rather than the tactics' innate validity.


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## ViolentPanda (Feb 27, 2010)

MC5 said:


> I can only go on my experience of the ANL mk1 and knowledge of this sort of activity. Then we slowly built up anti-fascist campaigning locally. It wasn't irregular, but consistent over a long period.
> Coupled with RAR, we managed to build in the community we were active within, with regular events to draw people into activity. I assume this is the same strategy today with UAF and LMHR?


By "consistent" do you mean "a consistent ongoing presence in the community(s) in question", or "we consistently visited the community every fortnight, plus whenever there was a racist incident"?
I ask because I know which of those was the norm in my part of SW London, and it never failed to *piss off* locals to have preachy badge-wearing student socialists descending on them to proclaim their imminent emancipation from the horrors of Nazism!


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 27, 2010)

if people still think there's mileage in 'exposing' the bnp, what the fuck's been going on for the past fucking 20 years?


----------



## audiotech (Feb 27, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Almost right, it's gone up in two. We need to integrate that with a wider picture though. Across that same period it's contested about 60 seats:
> 
> In seats they're contesting for the _first_ time they're averaging *11%*
> In seats they're _returning_ to they're averaging *20.43%*
> ...



You _might_ be right, but there again _possibly_ wrong?


----------



## audiotech (Feb 27, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> Quite a lot of that "98% of the population" don't have the vote, you prawn.
> And you're making a rather large assumption if you believe that a "don't vote BNP" strategy is chiefly responsible for the low (but increasing) BNP vote. It's far more likely to be down to a combination of social and political conditions, some of which are *currently* in flux and may therefore allow the BNP a greater "in" than previously.
> 
> And here's another possible example of what I call "reporter bias". If you approach someone in the street and/or on the doorstep and ask them a question such as "why do you support...?", you're likely to get the answer that they (the person giving the answer) feel will be most acceptable to you, regardless of whether it's actually an *honest* answer to the question.
> I don't think you can draw any hard and fast conclusions from such relatively thin material.



I'm not.

It's clear I was referring to the voting population you mollusc.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Feb 27, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> I've argued above why i'm sure that it's had no or utterly minimal effects - you think i'm wrong and have said so a number of times. You ask me for evidence to support my case, i can point to electoral figures, membership figures, growth in national profiles, growth in number of candidates across all elections and in elected candidates across all but parliamentary elections, growth in number of media appearances, growth in national profile, recognition of leading figures, increase in importance in influencing the public political agenda, normalisation of their presence as part of the accepted political scene, increase in number of candidates re-elected, growth in territorial areas in which they've won elections or achieved good votes, consolidation of votes/branhce/members in areas where they've not won, huge increase in the number of areas where they've came second. You don't think this demonstrates that the expose them model is not working. What's your evidence?
> 
> And no, i've argued _the exact opposite point_, what have you two been drinking tonight? I argue that the 'expose them' model simply does not and cannot deal with the social issues that are driving the far-right vote that you mention - i even re-emphasise that quite clearly above. My point is that it's these social issues that need to be concentrated on not they should be ignored.


rofl.  You are a dishonest with yourself, as much as anyone else.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 27, 2010)

MC5 said:


> You _might_ be right, but there again _possibly_ wrong?



Seriously, that's your reply? No alternative scenarios offered? No investigation of the stats? Nothing?


----------



## audiotech (Feb 27, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> By "consistent" do you mean "a consistent ongoing presence in the community(s) in question", or "we consistently visited the community every fortnight, plus whenever there was a racist incident"?
> I ask because I know which of those was the norm in my part of SW London, and it never failed to *piss off* locals to have preachy badge-wearing student socialists descending on them to proclaim their imminent emancipation from the horrors of Nazism!



The community in question is working class and don't do 'preachy'.

I wasn't 'visiting' either.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Feb 27, 2010)

MC5 said:


> You _might_ be right, but there again _possibly_ wrong?



What are you drinking, butchers cant be wrong.......... EVER!


----------



## TremulousTetra (Feb 27, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> Be fair though, he reads better than you write.



If you didn't have your tongue so far butcher's arse, you'd have noticed, it was balders writing.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Feb 27, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Almost right, it's gone up in two. We need to integrate that with a wider picture though. Across that same period it's contested about 60 seats:
> 
> In seats they're contesting for the _first_ time they're averaging *11%*
> In seats they're _returning_ to they're averaging *20.43%*
> ...


rofl.  It just doesn't compute does it butch?  You don't have clue what's being said to you.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 27, 2010)

Are there any less important threads you can go and embarrass yourself on with this childish non-politics? I'm not interested in it.


----------



## audiotech (Feb 27, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Seriously, that's your reply? No alternative scenarios offered? No investigation of the stats? Nothing?



I'm having me tea.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 27, 2010)

MC5 said:


> I'm not.
> 
> It's clear I was referring to the voting population you mollusc.



No it isn't, you shrivelled sea cucumber!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 27, 2010)

MC5 said:


> The community in question is working class and don't do 'preachy'.
> 
> I wasn't 'visiting' either.



I'm glad to hear it, but "parachuting" is still a tactic used by UAF etc, and it shouldn't be. It doesn't work, whoever uses it.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 27, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> If you didn't have your tongue so far butcher's arse, you'd have noticed, it was balders writing.



So there's no egregious spelling errors or indecipherable wibblings in any of your posts on this thread, then, Mr facepalm?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 27, 2010)

MC5 said:


> I'm having me tea.



Bit early.

Are you middle class or summat?


----------



## audiotech (Feb 27, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> I'm glad to hear it, but "parachuting" is still a tactic used by UAF etc, and it shouldn't be. It doesn't work, whoever uses it.



To be frank, that seems increasingly now to be seen as a right load of old bollocks.


----------



## audiotech (Feb 27, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> Bit early.
> 
> Are you middle class or summat?



Steak pie and chips with gravy yum.


----------



## The Black Hand (Feb 27, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> An interesting little fact series of figures - prior to 1997, i think the far-right in their entire historical existence had only ever saved a single deposit in a parliamentary election - recent results and deposits saved:
> 
> 1992 - 0
> 1997 - 3
> ...



You overplay the 'great BNP role', and you are not saying (are you?) that _the BNP vote would not have risen further without opposition. _

I think it is a non dialectical, or silly position if you want, to consider that they (Searchlight/Hope Not Hate) have had no effect. Action, reaction, its basic really...  You have no evidence for your assertions anyway.

I think it is stupid to assert that Hope Not Hate has had no effect, or even acknowledge the possibility that they have had, however limited, an effect (that is just anti intellectualism).


----------



## The Black Hand (Feb 27, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Er..yeah? And? In what way does that mean he's _not_ posted up any evidence to back up his opinion? In what does it mean that you _didn't_ ask him to provide evidence to back up his opinion whilst asking me to provide evidence?



You started the point with the asertion that it is not working, it is therefore incumbent on you to provide evidence of this. YOU HAVE NONE.

Your list of the BNP successes is not proof that Hope Not Hate have not prevented the BNP growing faster than they have if opposition (ie Hope not Hate not active) was lacking. You haven't proved your side of the argument at all.


----------



## The Black Hand (Feb 27, 2010)

MC5 said:


> Is post #2927 addressed to me?
> 
> In local elections since June, the BNP has seen it's share of the vote fall in 16 out of 17 seats it has recontested.
> 
> The recent vote in Primrose (S. Tyneside MBC) on Feb 25 did see the BNP receive a high percentage (27.87%) of those that voted, however it's vote did fall by 5.06 percent, from 32.93% in 2008. Still a question mark about what happened there, as there were a couple of independents standing to consider?



Yes you are right MC5, where there is opposition and choice, the evidence in Jarrow points that the BNP vote falls. 

The BNP vote falling after their first time out in wards is also happening frequently as you say.


----------



## The Black Hand (Feb 27, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> I don't think the lack of people voting bnp necessarily has anything to do with the UAF etc. Many people don't even know who the uaf are



But they do know who HOPE NOT HATE is because the Daily Mirror have given them shed loads of publicity.


----------



## The Black Hand (Feb 27, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Almost right, it's gone up in two. We need to integrate that with a wider picture though. Across that same period it's contested about 60 seats:
> 
> In seats they're contesting for the _first_ time they're averaging *11%*
> In seats they're _returning_ to they're averaging *20.43%*
> ...



These are just figures. Where's your data source? Without knowledge of how many wards you are using, when those wards were contested and so on you could be and probably are confusing the issue. Meanwhile the data I provided a while ago WAS checkable and is different to these figures.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 27, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> But they do know who HOPE NOT HATE is because the Daily Mirror have given them shed loads of publicity.



Because everyone reads the _Mirror_, don't they?


----------



## tbaldwin (Feb 27, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Are there any less important threads you can go and embarrass yourself on with this childish non-politics? I'm not interested in it.



Non politics a great term for anybody who doesnt respect your erm er very authorative opinions.
Your arguements on the effect of Hope not Hates effect are not exactly the work of a political mastermind are they?
And you still havent come up with any credible idea of a political alternative.
Still have faith in the IWCA do you?


----------



## TremulousTetra (Feb 27, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> So there's no egregious spelling errors or indecipherable wibblings in any of your posts on this thread, then, Mr facepalm?


look, you know that I am paralysed from the neck down.  my hands are paralysed.  That I have to rely upon the speech recognition.  And this doesn't always work properly, so I have to rely on typing with my knuckles.  Also speech-recognition etc, interferes with my trail of thought. and, yeah my own spelling aint that good.  but you fuck up because your constantly licking butchers arse.  just take your tongue out of your leaders arse. it aint very anarchist.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Feb 27, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> I don't think the lack of people voting bnp necessarily has anything to do with the UAF etc. Many people don't even know who the uaf are


your like a cult you lot. bnp is known as nazis by many people, where this message has come from is clearly the anti fascist anl etc. even if the people do not perceive directly from the whom it came, they still believe the bnp are nazi, and that will play a part in their voting decision. obvious.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Feb 27, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Are there any less important threads you can go and embarrass yourself on with this childish non-politics? I'm not interested in it.


No one has tried harder, for longer, to have a proper political conversation with you.  But I've given up.  It's pointless, your that for up your own arse, you're the one man cult, worshiping yourself.


----------



## audiotech (Feb 27, 2010)

Rmp3, you used to be so polite in the face of adversity?


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 27, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> Yes you are right MC5, where there is opposition and choice, the evidence in Jarrow points that the BNP vote falls.
> 
> The BNP vote falling after their first time out in wards is also happening frequently as you say.



sorry TBH but where/what was this choice in Jarrow?


----------



## TremulousTetra (Feb 27, 2010)

MC5 said:


> Rmp3, you used to be so polite in the face of adversity?


The ironic thing is, i still am when talking to the Nazi's, and their appologists.  I just cant be bothered any longer with the u75 cultist sectarian fuckwits like butch. he's so right, he cant even read.

given up. don't usually post on here anymore.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 27, 2010)

Utter rubbish, you've been chasing after me with tears in your eyes for over half a decade with this childish nonsense now, despite me making it plain to you time after time that i'm not going to take it or you seriously and instead would just largely ignore you. This little exchange over the last two days has reminded me exactly why - in the space of a few short posts you managed to to impute at least two positions to me that were the 100% precise opposite of what i've long argued and you chucked in an attempted race-based smear as well. Nevertheless, i persevered bravely on and made serious post after serious post, all the points of which you ignored in favour of starting up the tears again. Now i'm _really really_ not interested.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Feb 27, 2010)

good post, 39.    I agree with it, however the picture is more complicated obviously.  





The39thStep said:


> Some points for consideration:
> 
> British social attitude surveys indicate that the BNP success has been assisted by a 'perfect storm' whereby issues like the recession, immigration, crime, Europe have become dominant issues. Prominent in this is a view that does not accept the government and industries position that immigration brings economic benefits.


The fact is  immigration DOES bring economic benefits to uk PLC.  UK PLC is the enemy, not immigrants, who are being raped and pillaged from the 3rd world.



> The  experience of many people is that their communities have changed with people from abroad coming in this has increased competition for services such as housing, health, schools etc and this churn in community weakens community cohesion and challenges host communities.


bnp voted against building houses, in barking i think, and lied about houses for africans.


> Identity politics, multiculturalism favoured by the government racialises bothy the funding for social policy and social policy itself and pitches people against each other on the basis of race.in a period where representatives are very often chosen on the basis of race that the BNP will put themselves forward a representing whites.
> 
> This and the absence of class politics and a pro working class political movement creates the space for the BNP to grow.





> Whilst there may be some impact of labelling the BNP as Nazis , exposing criminals in their midst this is countered by the fact their communications strategy emphasises patriotism not Nazism. It is estimated that there are broadly three types of BNP members ; those with links to NF and old BNP , political traveller who have previously trawled through different political parties  and new members who are not likely to have been members of any other party and who genuinely do not associate themselves with neo Nazism.


Very true, but when you speak to them, they say if they believed they were nazi's they would ditch them, and many say griffin is a nazi racist liability.



> The BNP has with some success built active local units with a presence that has more impact than the left very often focussing on local issues and community activism. They have done well in traditional working class areas, and unlike the NF attract first time voters, unemployed voters those who have stopped voting and now have voters for whom the BNP are their first choice. They are able to pick up votes on the doorstep because contrary to the BNP+nazis propaganda they come across as a serious political party with a fairly attractive agenda of what ever local issue  they can find plus  save the NHS, keeps jobs in Britain,anti globalisation, anti established three parties and their gravy train, , troops out of Iraq and Afghanistan . Add this to concerns on crime, recession, immigration and terrorism  and it is quite easy to see that they have a reasonable product.


but is a fascade, which anti fascists can expose.



> Don't vote Nazi  without an alternative political choice enables the BNPO to come back time after time on the doorstep to challenge the motivation for this labelling as one that presents them as a victim of the three party monopoly in which they are misrepresented.
> 
> BNP voters analysis reveals that there is a strong correlation with age, low income, not educated to degree standard. The very people Denham initially said were dying out but are who are actually living longer and whose marginalisation with be further compounded by either a future labour or Tory govt.
> 
> ...


 I repeat again, I agree with all your post, but this does not rule out a mass community based anti-fascism, eg "Give up anti fascism".


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 27, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> look, you know that I am paralysed from the neck down.  my hands are paralysed.  That I have to rely upon the speech recognition.  And this doesn't always work properly, so I have to rely on typing with my knuckles.  Also speech-recognition etc, interferes with my trail of thought. and, yeah my own spelling aint that good.



As I've mentioned before, I use speech recognition software too, have done for 8 years (various versions of Dragon, mostly), and yet I have hardly any problems with either my spelling or my train of thought, and I don't have to edit or correct via typing.
As for your spelling, even the early speech recognition programs all have decent dictionaries.
Sounds like you rush things.


> ...but you fuck up because your constantly licking butchers arse.  just take your tongue out of your leaders arse. it aint very anarchist.



How is saying someone obviously reads better than you write licking someone's arse? What it *actually* is, is an insult to your writing ability!

Still, easier to rant on about arse-licking, and that way you get to trundle through one of your favourite sexual fantasies, too!

BTW, my "leader"? You don't have a fucking scooby, do you?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 27, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> your like a cult you lot.


Who is "you lot"?
I mean, besides anyone who disagrees with you and attica and balders, like. 


> bnp is known as nazis by many people, where this message has come from is clearly the anti fascist anl etc. even if the people do not perceive directly from the whom it came, they still believe the bnp are nazi, and that will play a part in their voting decision. obvious.


Hmm, when was the ANL formed/when did it get its name? 
Was it back in the days when the leaders of the BNP and NF still dressed up in pseudo-SS uniforms and had houses crowded with Hitler memorabilia?
You know what? I rather think it was!!
So, does that make the label apposite *now*?
I rather think it doesn't! In fact I'd go as far as to say it's more than a little cringeworthy.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Feb 27, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Utter rubbish, you've been chasing after me with tears in your eyes for over half a decade with this childish nonsense now, despite me making it plain to you time after time that i'm not going to take it or you seriously and instead would just largely ignore you. This little exchange over the last two days has reminded me exactly why - in the space of a few short posts you managed to to impute at least two positions to me that were the 100% precise opposite of what i've long argued and you chucked in an attempted race-based smear as well. Nevertheless, i persevered bravely on and made serious post after serious post, all the points of which you ignored in favour of starting up the tears again. Now i'm _really really_ not interested.


You realy are a brain addled delusional god complex fuckwit if you believe any of that.  Get fucking life you triping monkey.


----------



## Streathamite (Feb 27, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> Another thing that bugs me about this "you can only build an alternative" arguement, is it's kow towing to the fascist agenda.  Seeing those who vote bnp concerns as prime, as some kind class vangaurd.  It seems to get things upside down.  We should build an alternative, but why start with the least progressive people?  Surely those with the most progressive ideas, including amongst them anti fascist's, will be the most fertile ground?


Thew thingv you're overlooking here is the elementary socialist truth that you have to start any and every movement-building by aiming it at the working classes  as a whole body, and the elememntary human truth that fairly large sections of the UK indigenous working classes have been historically pretty unprogressive, or at the very least highly susceptible to thoroughly unprogressive/xenophobic/reactionary ideas and calls.
That doesn't make them any less of the core group you simply _have_ to win over: appealing to those most predisposed to agree with you is a) shooting a soft open goal b) missing the point


----------



## TremulousTetra (Feb 27, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> As I've mentioned before, I use speech recognition software too, have done for 8 years (various versions of Dragon, mostly), and yet I have hardly any problems with either my spelling or my train of thought, and I don't have to edit or correct via typing.
> As for your spelling, even the early speech recognition programs all have decent dictionaries.
> Sounds like you rush things.


Yup maybe I do. Yup I'm fallable.  Cant realy use speech rec while son on x-box, wife cooking, duaghter singing etc.  And mine don't work great.  So like niw, have to type with knuckles.  But WHO FUCKING cares!  No one in their right mind.  Going on about such trivia as spelling, is boring imho.  




> How is saying someone obviously reads better than you write licking someone's arse? What it *actually* is, is an insult to your writing ability!


God this is tedious.  Again, it wasn't my writing it was balders. butch just can not compute what balders was saying.



> Still, easier to rant on about arse-licking, and that way you get to trundle through one of your favourite sexual fantasies, too!


from lostock two smoking barrels, piss take of a truism.



> BTW, my "leader"? You don't have a fucking scooby, do you?


Yeah kind of ironic aint it.


Fuck it.  This has got out of hand.  Carry on as you were, Don Quixote.


----------



## Streathamite (Feb 27, 2010)

MC5 said:


> You _might_ be right, but there again _possibly_ wrong?


fairy snuff, but what can you offer to develop that further - stats, analysis of stats, other detail?


----------



## TremulousTetra (Feb 27, 2010)

Streathamite said:


> Thew thingv you're overlooking here is the elementary socialist truth that you have to start any and every movement-building by aiming it at the working classes  as a whole body, and the elememntary human truth that fairly large sections of the UK indigenous working classes have been historically pretty unprogressive, or at the very least highly susceptible to thoroughly unprogressive/xenophobic/reactionary ideas and calls.
> That doesn't make them any less of the core group you simply _have_ to win over: appealing to those most predisposed to agree with you is a) shooting a soft open goal b) missing the point


You need to expand, because I agree with the 2nd half of paragraph  1, but don't understand your conclusion.  Are you saying ie, in opposing SA apartied, you start with those that support it?  Of course you don't, you start with the soft open goal appealing to those most predisposed to agree with you, to build a mass community based movement the forces of reaction you point to, cant resist, surely?  

Same with anti-fascism,  you start with the soft open goal appealing to those most predisposed to agree with you, to build a mass community based movement the forces of reaction you point to, cant resist, surely?

Please excuse my previous post's to butch n vp.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Feb 27, 2010)

Streathamite;10367658]fairy snuff said:


> You started the point with the asertion that it is not working, it is therefore incumbent on you to provide evidence of this. YOU HAVE NONE.
> 
> Your list of the BNP successes is not proof that Hope Not Hate have not prevented the BNP growing faster than they have if opposition (ie Hope not Hate not active) was lacking. You haven't proved your side of the argument at all.


 Butch could be right, but he could be wrong.





MC5 said:


> You _might_ be right, but there again _possibly_ wrong?


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Feb 28, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> Your list of the BNP successes is not proof that Hope Not Hate have not prevented the BNP growing faster than they have if opposition (ie Hope not Hate not active) was lacking.



Your praise for the Hope Not Hate New Labour/spook front noted.  And now you must have the latest _Notes From the Borderland _analysing Hope Not Hate in some detail it cannot be said you have not had access to an alternative view.

As an ex-Big Flame member, might I point out to you that 'autonomy' in the sense BF used it meant independence from (among other things) the state--something that cannot be said for Hope Not Hate.

Good, however, for the clarification of exactly who you are lining up alongside nowadays....


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Feb 28, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> it is stupid to assert that Hope Not Hate has had no effect, or even acknowledge the possibility that they have had, however limited, an effect.



Oh, they've had an effect alright--the _Searchlight_/BBC 'Secret Agent' documentary, and resulting Race trial (which Griffin won) gave the BNP immense coverage and _kudos_ in areas they were targeting.  It so inspired Griffin, in the 2005 General Election  he decided to stand in Keighley, featured in the programme.

So, your _Searchlight _friends definitely had an effect--though not quite the one apologists would claim on their behalf.  Don't dismiss this as irrelevant--Lowles/Meszaros actually justify them being the 'experts' partly on the basis of this very documentary.  My sources attending HNH franchise meetings up and down the country all confirm this.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 28, 2010)

All quite comical this 'autonomous anti fascism' which over the past two weeks has now been confirmed as handing out leaflets on the other side of the road to  UAF , dropping in the odd reference to working class  and now has shifted into supporting Hope Not Hate.


----------



## The Black Hand (Feb 28, 2010)

Larry O'Hara said:


> Your praise for the Hope Not Hate New Labour/spook front noted.  And now you must have the latest _Notes From the Borderland _analysing Hope Not Hate in some detail it cannot be said you have not had access to an alternative view.
> 
> As an ex-Big Flame member, might I point out to you that 'autonomy' in the sense BF used it meant independence from (among other things) the state--something that cannot be said for Hope Not Hate.
> 
> Good, however, for the clarification of exactly who you are lining up alongside nowadays....



That's just Ultra Left rubbish Larry. I have't read your Borderland piece on HnH yet, I hopefully will do so. Just because I have said they may have had an effect does not indicate support for them - you are just mirror image opposites sometimes. I am making a clear intellectual point that you have no evidence that they have not had an effect, this is not rocket science and should not result in hyperbolic rage. The ultra left has been called immature and it certainly looks like that is the case going on the anti fascist evidence around here. Making 'the most radical gestures' against them but lacking any alternative, certainly on a national level.

Thanks for the mag btw, I have posted you another with a clear editorial that talks about the area of autonomy (the political space) I have identified BETWEEN the ultra left (You/IWCA etc) and Searchlight/HnH/Labour. AS such, I am most definately treated with suspicion by BOTH sides, and tbh I do not care. I think you are both lacking, and that authentic independent people should be critical of both camps, and indeed all politics. The ultra left have got away with their impotent bullshit for far too long.


----------



## The Black Hand (Feb 28, 2010)

The39thStep said:


> sorry TBH but where/what was this choice in Jarrow?



Look at the independents, that council has about 10 council left independents, and one of them is below. The other indy was also on the left I think;

South Tyneside MBC Primrose ward 

Ken Stephenson Labour 854 -42%
Pete Hodgkinson BNP 566 - 27.9% 
Aaron Luke Independent 213 - 10.5% 
David Alan Rice Independent 174 - 8.6%
Anthony James Lanaghan Conservative 124 - 6.1% 
Susan Heather Troupe Liberal Democrats 100 -4.9%


----------



## The Black Hand (Feb 28, 2010)

The39thStep said:


> All quite comical this 'autonomous anti fascism' which over the past two weeks has now been confirmed as handing out leaflets on the other side of the road to  UAF , dropping in the odd reference to working class  and now has shifted into supporting Hope Not Hate.



That's rubbish 39. You are just unwilling to admit that people may see the best chance of firefighting the BNP is a Labour vote. It does not fill me with joy, but there IS NO ULTRA LEFT ALTERNATIVE. So, in this case, and in the future IMHO there will be a contradictory anti fascist process of becoming, and this is the authentic Hegelian Marxist position not ultra left, not anarchist, but operating anarchistically as a place of honour that resides between Necessity and desire.


Autonomous anti fasism is a tendency that has historically existed and continues to emerge more naturally than ultra left politics that lives on well beyond its sell by date cos they can gob off on U75. NOWHERE has ultra left politics emerged afresh, no groups etc. 

Instead the politics that has emerged, without my encouragement in that Jarrow ward, is an anti fascism that is autonomous. Of course, one ward is not enough to say that it is a general tendency, but it is a start.

Some evidence of the AAF practice is here - Letter published in the South Shields Gazette and other local papers. They did canvassing and more too;

“Opponents of the BNP Unite Together

On Saturday 8th February a coalition of members from different political parties and organisations joined together outside Morrison’s store at Jarrow to oppose the British National Party (BNP) who have been canvassing the area with their hatred and lies.

Those gathered included Stephen Hepburn M.P. Alan Kerr, Deputy Leader South Tyneside Council, Shirley Ford – Green Party candidate for South Tyneside in the forthcoming election, Peter Murray, anti fascist campaigner and also, members from Tyne & Wear Anti Fascist Association (TWAFA) and Unite Against Fascism (UAF). Unions represented included members from Unison, Unite and the GMB. Stephen Hepburn M.P. agreed there was a need for joint action in opposing the BNP. Shirley Ford said “It was vital that every effort is made to stop Jarrow becoming the first place in the North East to vote Fascist and called on all reasonable people to look at what happens when fascists get power. Tens of millions of ordinary people were killed and murdered in the last war while the fascists then, the Nazis, never kept any of their promises and the poor actually got poorer while the rich stayed rich.

The protest was conducted by Tyne and Wear Left Unity which is calling for a coordinated response to stop the BNP at Jarrow. Vicki Gilbert from Left Unity and UAF and a Labour party member for over 50 years said she was very frightened that ordinary people would vote fascist in the hope of solving their problems and feeling that Labour had let them down. Vicki lost many of her family in the Holocaust and said the BNP’s racial policies are exactly like those of the Nazis. People should take a close look at these thugs and their racial hatred and lies ie. Blaming other poor people for our problems while never mentioning the capitalist system or those who benefit from it. The real answer is Labour has to start managing society for everyone and not just the wealthy, that’s how places like Jarrow will improve. Fascism with its hatred can never be the answer.

Paul Baker Tyne and Wear Left Unity"


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## TremulousTetra (Feb 28, 2010)

I thought I would make another attempt.

The way I write is irrelevant, because butchers couldn't understand what balders, the black hand, MC5, or myself were saying.  





MC5;10366575]You [I]might[/I] be right said:


> Seriously, that's your reply? No alternative scenarios offered? No investigation of the stats? Nothing?


Didn't realise what TBH, Balders, MC5 and I accept, is the data is inconclusive.  We accept that we can both look at the same facts, and still come to genuine conclusion different to yours VP.  

It is this inablity to accept VP, by you and butch etc, that you cannot always argue everything through to a conclusion that everyone will accept, that is absurd.  Not being able to accept people can look at the same facts as you, but come to a genuine conclusion different to yours, that leads you to say stupid things. Like the swp cc deceive the swp members for the CC's personal benefit, ie they want to be the new ruling class.  That leads picks to suggest the CC have routinely and knowingly acted for the state. Beloid, the membership are deceived nodding dogs.  For many to demand "give up anti-fascism". And so on.

I on the other hand not only accept you've come to a different conclusion on opposing fascism, I welcome it.  I wish you every success.  I hope your right, and I'm wrong.  I'm not going to consider you lot liars, the enemy, to be destroyed.  I just consider you wrong.  I agree, to disagree fraternally.  Why can’t you lot?


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## Captain Hurrah (Feb 28, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> this is the authentic Hegelian Marxist position not ultra left, not anarchist, but operating anarchistically as a place of honour that resides between Necessity and desire.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Feb 28, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> I am making a clear intellectual point that you have no evidence that they have not had an effect, this is not rocket science and should not result in hyperbolic rage.



Why do you think they do this?

Also interested in your pro's and cons regarding AAF, UAF, HNH.


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## ViolentPanda (Feb 28, 2010)

Streathamite said:


> Thew thingv you're overlooking here is the elementary socialist truth that you have to start any and every movement-building by aiming it at the working classes  as a whole body..


Vanguardist!! 
Me, I'd say the elementary truth of any movement (socialist or otherwise) that seeks to be truly equitable, is that it needs to proceed *from* "the people", not be "aimed at" them or foisted on them. 


> ...and the elememntary human truth that fairly large sections of the UK indigenous working classes have been historically pretty unprogressive, or at the very least highly susceptible to thoroughly unprogressive/xenophobic/reactionary ideas and calls.


I'd say that the same is true of every class, and that "high susceptibility" tends to be more contingent among the working classes, usually varying alongside such "everyday" necessities as work.


> That doesn't make them any less of the core group you simply _have_ to win over: appealing to those most predisposed to agree with you is a) shooting a soft open goal b) missing the point


It is, however, easy, and still stimulates feelings of gratification.


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## TremulousTetra (Feb 28, 2010)

Captain Hurrah said:


>


This is a great example of what I was saying above.  TBH's comments are 'common sense' and obvious to me.  But I do believe to Capt they are genuinely incoherent.  Don't we have to accept reality, that we all interpret the written word, according to our own experiences, perspective, politics and this distorts the writers meanings?


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## ViolentPanda (Feb 28, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> Yup maybe I do. Yup I'm fallable.  Cant realy use speech rec while son on x-box, wife cooking, duaghter singing etc.  And mine don't work great.  So like niw, have to type with knuckles.  But WHO FUCKING cares!  No one in their right mind.  Going on about such trivia as spelling, is boring imho.


So why the long self-pitying whine when I mentioned it?
Please don't tell me you were playing the "cripple card"! I thought you had a bit more self-respect!


> God this is tedious.  Again, it wasn't my writing it was balders. butch just can not compute what balders was saying.


I'm not talking about balders' writing ability, I;m talking about yours (whatever the reasons and excuses).


> from lostock two smoking barrels, piss take of a truism.
> 
> 
> Yeah kind of ironic aint it.
> ...


Fucking hell, a Trot who accuses others of tilting at windmills!


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Feb 28, 2010)

nice to see that anti-fascist unity is alive and well on these boards. The far right must be terrified of our cohesive agenda and strategies.


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## TremulousTetra (Feb 28, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> Vanguardist!!
> Me, I'd say the elementary truth of any movement (socialist or otherwise) that seeks to be truly equitable, is that it needs to proceed *from* "the people", not be "aimed at" them or foisted on them.


Yes, as socialist worker constantly  say's, the emancipation of the working class, has to be the ACT of the working class.



> I'd say that the same is true of every class, and that "high susceptibility" tends to be more contingent among the working classes, usually varying alongside such "everyday" necessities as work.


Precisely, that's why as the sw repeats, in the working class, capitalism has created its own grave digger.  As the workplace engenders a collective consciousness.  
Didn't realise you acceted the concept of contradictory level is of consciousness.  Don't think Butch does.





> It is, however, easy, and still stimulates feelings of gratification.


And then you go and spoil it all, by saying stupid like, I love you.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Feb 28, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> So why the long self-pitying whine when I mentioned it?
> Please don't tell me you were playing the "cripple card"! I thought you had a bit more self-respect!
> 
> I'm not talking about balders' writing ability, I;m talking about yours (whatever the reasons and excuses).


You asked me why, again, my writing is shit, so I answered.  You then explained how you were superior.  I accept your criticism. The writing issue is tedious to me, no more. Tilting at windmills.

However, this is more interesting http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=10368891&postcount=2986




> Fucking hell, a Trot who accuses others of tilting at windmills!


A lot of your post's are nit picking, and fancifull attacks on strawmen you've created to represent views you disagree with.  And I do not accuse ALL anarchist's of tilting at windmills, that would be sectarian wind mill tilting.  Again, see the other post.


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## ViolentPanda (Feb 28, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> I thought I would make another attempt.
> 
> The way I write is irrelevant, because butchers couldn't understand what balders, the black hand, MC5, or myself were saying.  Butch couldn't compute this.Didn't realise what TBH, Balders, MC5 and I accept, is the data is inconclusive.  We accept that we can both look at the same facts, and still come to genuine conclusion different to yours VP.


I'll be polite.
I'm happy to accept, for example MC5's views as valid because I *know of* his work.
I'm not happy to accept tbaldwin's views without substantiation because he's talked so much toss (as well as baldfacedly lying) in the past.
TBH/attica: I accept that he believes what he says, and I know he's got his treasured doctorate so that the world knows how clever he is, but I also am well aware of how other politicised people view him (due to his self-aggrandising and occasionally destructive actions over the years). He likes to tar anyone who disagrees with his pronouncements as "ultra-left" (see above, for example). What does that say for the "genuineness" of his conclusions, hmm? 
You: Your arguments are hard to follow, you veer into irrelevancy and personal attack at the slightest provocation, and the company you keep is poor. No doubt you feel the same with regard to me. 


> It is this inablity to accept VP, by you and butch etc, that you cannot always argue everything through to a conclusion that everyone will accept, that is absurd.


I don't believe that everyone should accept what I say, but I do believe that arguments should be taken to their conclusion, rather than people using devices ("ooh, you're ultra-left! You smell!" etc) to avoid responding or to allow them to pontificate.  


> Not being able to accept people can look at the same facts as you, but come to a genuine conclusion different to yours, that leads you to say stupid things. Like the swp cc deceive the swp members for the CC's personal benefit, ie they want to be the new ruling class.  That leads picks to suggest the CC have routinely and knowingly acted for the state. Beloid, the membership are deceived nodding dogs.  For many to demand "give up anti-fascism". And so on.


Let me get this right: I'm not allowed {by you} to draw a different conclusion from you, even though you've just told me I must allow others to do so?
Oh dearie me!


> I on the other hand not only accept you've come to a different conclusion on opposing fascism, I welcome it.


_Ja, und mein Gans schreibt ein Roman!_  


> I wish you every success.  I hope your right, and I'm wrong.  I'm not going to consider you lot liars, the enemy, to be destroyed.  I just consider you wrong.  I agree, to disagree fraternally.  Why can’t you lot?


Perhaps you need to re-read those instances where you believe that people don't agree to disagree. I can think of a couple of posts just on this thread whee people have done exactly that.


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## ViolentPanda (Feb 28, 2010)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> nice to see that anti-fascist unity is alive and well on these boards.


Unity matters on the streets and the doorstep, not on bulletin boards. 


> The far right must be terrified of our cohesive agenda and strategies.


The far right are currently in a position, due to economic and social circumstances, where a cohesive agenda and strategies, however well-shaped, won't do much good except to discourage waverers.


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## ViolentPanda (Feb 28, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> Yes, as socialist worker constantly  say's, the emancipation of the working class, has to be the ACT of the working class.


The (unspoken) caveat being "...and we'll be happy to lend our knowledge and organisational skills to the working classes...", and that's not just the attitude of the Swappies (just in case you think I'm picking on them!) but of far too many "revolutionary left" groupings.


> Precisely, that's why as the sw repeats, in the working class, capitalism has created its own grave digger.  As the workplace engenders a collective consciousness.


Which is all very well (and "orthodox Marx" too). as well as accurate, but *only as far as it goes*, and in the ridiculousness and vileness of a post-industrial neo-liberal economy and the concomitant effects of that on social relations, it *isn't enough* to view everything through that lens. IMO a "wide-angle" view is more appropriate, one that accepts that the modern "working class(es)" consist not only of those who serve capital directly, in the workplace, but those of us who, for one reason or another, have been discarded by Capitalism.


> Didn't realise you acceted the concept of contradictory level is of consciousness.  Don't think Butch does.


As I've said to other posters on other threads, his posts are combative, and because they are (and because those they're replying to tend to skim-read them, from what I can make out, before rattling of an offended reply ), people often ascribe to him positions that are not ones he holds/


> And then you go and spoil it all, by saying stupid like, I love you.


Be honest. How many times have you seen, at political gatherings (whatever the group/sect), a speaker take the easy route of preaching to the converted rather than trying to enthuse new blood? 
Me, I've seen it so many times in the last 30 years that I'm a cynic.


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## tbaldwin (Feb 28, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> I'm not happy to accept tbaldwin's views without substantiation because he's talked so much toss (as well as baldfacedly lying) in the past.



Be interested in you posting up an example or 2 if thats what you believe? Is it ?


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## ViolentPanda (Feb 28, 2010)

tbaldwin said:


> Be interested in you posting up an example or 2...


Like I'm going to go over 6 years of threads. pfftt.


> ...if thats what you believe? Is it ?


Would I have written it if I didn't believe it?


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## tbaldwin (Feb 28, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> Like I'm going to go over 6 years of threads. pfftt.
> 
> Would I have written it if I didn't believe it?



Wheres your evidence? Its a bit of a uncalled slur isnt it?


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## ViolentPanda (Feb 28, 2010)

tbaldwin said:


> Wheres your evidence? Its a bit of a uncalled slur isnt it?



What, that you talk toss and occasionally lie? Hardly a slur. More of a fact of life that most of the posters you've made insinuations and snide remarks about of the years could confirm, if they wished to.

Why so defensive? It's not like you've got a good reputation to uphold, is it?


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## tbaldwin (Feb 28, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> What, that you talk toss and occasionally lie? Hardly a slur. More of a fact of life that most of the posters you've made insinuations and snide remarks about of the years could confirm, if they wished to.
> 
> Why so defensive? It's not like you've got a good reputation to uphold, is it?



So you cant point to a single example? No evidence eh....touch ironic.


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## ViolentPanda (Feb 28, 2010)

tbaldwin said:


> So you cant point to a single example? No evidence eh....touch ironic.



What did I say four or five posts ago, *before* your demand for evidence in post #3000?

I said "Like I'm going to go over 6 years of threads. pfftt.", so it's a bit disingenuous of you to make demands and rant on about "no evidence", isn't it? 

As for being ironic, it's only ironic if I pretend that you asked for evidence *before* I said I wasn't going to go through six years-worth of threads.


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## tbaldwin (Feb 28, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> What did I say four or five posts ago, *before* your demand for evidence in post #3000?
> 
> I said "Like I'm going to go over 6 years of threads. pfftt.", so it's a bit disingenuous of you to make demands and rant on about "no evidence", isn't it?
> 
> As for being ironic, it's only ironic if I pretend that you asked for evidence *before* I said I wasn't going to go through six years-worth of threads.



Cant say i am exactly impressed, if you think im a liar, point out where ive lied.


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## TremulousTetra (Feb 28, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> I'll be polite.
> I'm happy to accept, for example MC5's views as valid because I *know of* his work.
> I'm not happy to accept tbaldwin's views without substantiation because he's talked so much toss (as well as baldfacedly lying) in the past.
> TBH/attica: I accept that he believes what he says, and I know he's got his treasured doctorate so that the world knows how clever he is, but I also am well aware of how other politicised people view him (due to his self-aggrandising and occasionally destructive actions over the years). He likes to tar anyone who disagrees with his pronouncements as "ultra-left" (see above, for example). What does that say for the "genuineness" of his conclusions, hmm?
> You: Your arguments are hard to follow, you veer into irrelevancy and personal attack at the slightest provocation, and the company you keep is poor. No doubt you feel the same with regard to me.


 you need to read what I have said.  I never mentioned attica.  I am not talking about generalities, I am talking about the specific discussion in this thread.  

Also I find your attitude elitist.  I keep poor company everyday, their called ordinary non political (by your standards) working class people.
_Edited to add.  When you mentioned keeping the poor company, it seemed you were still referring to Balders etc.  It's now occurred to me you were referring to the swp.  If so, in answer to your question.  Yes, Your arguments are hard to follow, you veer into irrelevancy and personal attack at the slightest provocation, BUT to me it is sectarian to paint all anarchist's as "poor company", as it to paint all trots as "poor company".  It seems contradictory to say, we shouldn't ignore working class fascists because of the poor company they keep, but we should ignore working class trots because of the company they keep._



> I don't believe that everyone should accept what I say, but I do believe that arguments should be taken to their conclusion, rather than people using devices ("ooh, you're ultra-left! You smell!" etc) to avoid responding or to allow them to pontificate.


 again, you need to read what I said.  I never mentioned everybody accepting what you say, I was talking about your inability to accept genuine disagreement.  To accept people can genuinely disagree with you.  It is impossible for every argument to be taken to their conclusion, our different life experiences, politics etc. will lead us to different conclusions.  That shouldn't make us enemies, but it too often does for u75 anarchists.


> Let me get this right: I'm not allowed {by you} to draw a different conclusion from you, even though you've just told me I must allow others to do so?
> Oh dearie me!


 again read, I said not being able to believe that people can genuinely disagree with you, is absurd, and leads you to silly conclusions.  An opinion, I could be wrong about.



> _Ja, und mein Gans schreibt ein Roman!_


 I really find this an intriguing mystery.  Why would I lie?  How could I convince you I am not lying?  

Again, you seem to find it completely impossible that anyone can hold a different opinion to you, genuinely.  For you, it all seems to be about ego, not wanting to be wrong.  For me, it is totally illogical to say anything else than what I have said.  Why would I be against any victory against fascism?  The more strategies we have, the more chance of success.  Not only that, your strategy is about overthrowing capitalism, as much as defending against fascism.  Why wouldn't I wish you every success?  I've said loads of times, if I had a choice between a Leninist revolution, and an anarchist revolution, I'd choose the anarchist every time.  _Edited to add.  To me achieving communism/anarchism, the goal, is more important than winning this sectarian squabble._  To me we should be comrades, we want exactly the same thing, we just disagree about how to achieve it.           


> Perhaps you need to re-read those instances where you believe that people don't agree to disagree. I can think of a couple of posts just on this thread whee people have done exactly that.


butchers?


----------



## TremulousTetra (Feb 28, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> What did I say four or five posts ago, *before* your demand for evidence in post #3000?
> 
> I said "Like I'm going to go over 6 years of threads. pfftt.", so it's a bit disingenuous of you to make demands and rant on about "no evidence", isn't it?
> 
> As for being ironic, it's only ironic if I pretend that you asked for evidence *before* I said I wasn't going to go through six years-worth of threads.


 but that's your problem, you cant understand the difference between a genuine disagreement, and a liar.  You've just call me a liar, (which is of little concern because any Internet debating forum is an irelevance to any logical person), you say that they SW CC are lying.  It appears according to you , everybody is lying, if they disagree with you.  

I do not think you're lying, I believe you're completely genuine, your just wrong.


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## TremulousTetra (Feb 28, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> The (unspoken) caveat being "...and we'll be happy to lend our knowledge and organisational skills to the working classes...", and that's not just the attitude of the Swappies (just in case you think I'm picking on them!) but of far too many "revolutionary left" groupings.


Yeah, fair comment.  We believe the organised fascists, and capitalist, need an equally organised working class to smash them.  The working class is not even, as we have discussed there is contradictory levels of consciousness.  And the most revolutionary of the working class, need to organise, to win the argument with the working class that they should create classless society.

Just out of interest.  In your experience if you talk to 100 ordinary people, and you say, what we need to achieve is a classless society, how many would automatically understand what you are talking about, and say yes?



> Which is all very well (and "orthodox Marx" too). as well as accurate, but *only as far as it goes*, and in the ridiculousness and vileness of a post-industrial neo-liberal economy and the concomitant effects of that on social relations, it *isn't enough* to view everything through that lens. IMO a "wide-angle" view is more appropriate, one that accepts that the modern "working class(es)" consist not only of those who serve capital directly, in the workplace, but those of us who, for one reason or another, have been discarded by Capitalism.


 there is nothing particularly new about the existence of those of us who, for one reason or another, have been discarded by Capitalism.  The Marxist analysis of the working classes has always included them.  But the fact remains, the point of struggle, is at the means of production.  Today as always in every form of class society that has existed, those who controlled the means of production, control society.



> As I've said to other posters on other threads, his posts are combative, and because they are (and because those they're replying to tend to skim-read them, from what I can make out, before rattling of an offended reply ), people often ascribe to him positions that are not ones he holds/


 have no idea what his position is on anything, he refuses to discuss it.  So you are right. 



> Be honest. How many times have you seen, at political gatherings (whatever the group/sect), a speaker take the easy route of preaching to the converted rather than trying to enthuse new blood?
> Me, I've seen it so many times in the last 30 years that I'm a cynic.


 I would never have guessed.  however, a meeting, is not the same as trying to build an anti fascist mass movement.  Starting with those who support fascism, is illogical.  That doesn't mean you ignore them.


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## FreddyB (Feb 28, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> Just out of interest.  In your experience if you talk to 100 ordinary people, and you say, what we need to achieve is a classless society, how many would automatically understand what you are talking about, and say yes?



Even if they all did what does it mean? It's a lot of bollocks expecially in the context of organising against fascism now. Some jam tomorrow classless society is utterly useless for anything -It's now that matters, what we do today about the problems we have now.


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## Larry O'Hara (Feb 28, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> That's just Ultra Left rubbish Larry. I have't read your Borderland piece on HnH yet, I hopefully will do so.



Says it all really--not examined the opposing view, but you dismiss it with insulting language.



> Just because I have said they may have had an effect does not indicate support for them - you are just mirror image opposites sometimes. I am making a clear intellectual point that you have no evidence that they have not had an effect, .



The charitable interpretation is that you cannot read.  I did not deny an effect--I spoke of a court case and massive free advert for the BNP.  Arising from the very documentary Lowles boasts about.  You choose to ignore this and claim I deny Searchlight have had an effect.  No, I don't deny it, merely highlight a different one than what their apologists claim.




> ultra left has been called immature and it certainly looks like that is the case going on the anti fascist evidence around here. Making 'the most radical gestures' against them but lacking any alternative, certainly on a national level.



I posit an alternative, that of course you haven't read....



> ultra left have got away with their impotent bullshit for far too long.



If the cap fits, wear it!


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## audiotech (Feb 28, 2010)

I'd just like to add that I fear that butchersapron could be right and even more fearful that Larry O'Hara who disagrees with butchersapron, and puts forward the idea that the BNP could gain power, could be right also?


.....


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## Larry O'Hara (Mar 1, 2010)

MC5 said:


> Larry O'Hara who disagrees with butchersapron, and puts forward the idea that the BNP could gain power.....



I think that last possibility very unlikely--it is just that I would never rule out the possibility 100%.  That, however, is merely having an open mind.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Mar 1, 2010)

FreddyB;10370206][QUOTE=ResistanceMP3 said:


> Just out of interest.  In your experience if you talk to 100 ordinary people, and you say, what we need to achieve is a classless society, how many would automatically understand what you are talking about, and say yes?


Even if they all did what does it mean? It's a lot of bollocks expecially in the context of organising against fascism now. Some jam tomorrow classless society is utterly useless for anything -It's now that matters, what we do today about the problems we have now.[/QUOTE] you're absolutely right, my question was "just out of interest", trying to better understand vps butchs notion of contradictory levels of consciousness.  

However, this topic, consciousness (where the vast majority of ordinary people's heads are at politically), is directly linked to the fight against fascism, because it's about strategy. If you don't answer these questions, it's a bit like us all going on a coach trip, but not telling the driver where we going, you end up going nowhere fast.  The fascists and the capitalists strategise, and so should anti-fascists.

For example what I understand the anarchists vp butch to be saying is, if you do not have an alternative not just to fascism, but to the causes of fascism, capitalism, you're going to be involved in a labour of sisyphus.  Everytime you roll back the threat of fascism, it comes back again, because you haven't got rid of the causes.  Not only that, that in the fight against fascism you employ anarchy.  The means and the ends are the same thing.  The only way to create anarchy in the future, is to be anarchy in the present.  So for them, it isn't just about getting stuck in, there is also immediate strategy shaped by their long-term strategy, goals and objectives.

Now for me, the notion of contradictory levels of consciousness, creates obvious problems for this strategy.  And I am interested how the anarchists vp and butch square the circle.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Mar 1, 2010)

Larry O'Hara said:


> I think that last possibility very unlikely--it is just that I would never rule out the possibility 100%.  That, however, is merely having an open mind.


You saying butch doesn't have an open mind?


----------



## FreddyB (Mar 1, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> you're absolutely right, my question was "just out of interest", trying to better understand vps butchs notion of contradictory levels of consciousness.
> 
> However, this topic, consciousness (where the vast majority of ordinary people's heads are at politically), is directly linked to the fight against fascism, because it's about strategy. If you don't answer these questions, it's a bit like us all going on a coach trip, but not telling the driver where we going, you end up going nowhere fast.  The fascists and the capitalists strategise, and so should anti-fascists.
> 
> ...



I think the square only exists in your head. What is this consciousness really, what does it boil down to, if it's "where peoples heads are politically" I think it's meaningless. People have  material problems that need to be dealt with that are caused by capitalism/the political establishment but there's really no need to even use the word capitlism when dealing with them. Any moves by working class people to improve their lot on their own terms are anti capitalist/radical whether you give them the label or not.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Mar 1, 2010)

FreddyB said:


> I think the square only exists in your head. What is this consciousness really, what does it boil down to, if it's "where peoples heads are politically" I think it's meaningless. People have  material problems that need to be dealt with that are caused by capitalism/the political establishment but there's really no need to even use the word capitlism when dealing with them. Any moves by working class people to improve their lot on their own terms are anti capitalist/radical whether you give them the label or not.


Any move, like fascism?  Voting tory, or Labour?  All this is done by working class people motivated to improve their lot.  Convincing the working class people to improve their lot on their own terms that are anti capitalist/radical, is THE battle for ideas.  The dominant ideas in every class society that has existed, has always been the ruling classes ideas.  That's not in my head, it's observable in history, and something we have to deal with today.


----------



## Random (Mar 1, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> The dominant ideas in every class society that has existed, has always been the ruling classes ideas.  That's not in my head, it's observable in history, and something we have to deal with today.


 Yes, we all know that Leninists like you are convinced that the working class can only achieve freedom from capitalist delusions through your party's intervention.  The results of this Leninist middle class nonsense have been both pathetic and disastrous.  That's observable from history.


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## Random (Mar 1, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> butchersapron





ResistanceMP3 said:


> butchers





ResistanceMP3 said:


> butchersapron





ResistanceMP3 said:


> butch


 Still obsessed, I see.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 1, 2010)

tbaldwin said:


> Cant say i am exactly impressed, if you think im a liar, point out where ive lied.



I did at the time(s). You blustered and then stropped S. O. fucking P.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Mar 1, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> Any move, like fascism?  Voting tory, or Labour?  All this is done by working class people motivated to improve their lot.  Convincing the working class people to improve their lot on their own terms that are anti capitalist/radical, is THE battle for ideas.  The dominant ideas in every class society that has existed, has always been the ruling classes ideas.  That's not in my head, it's observable in history, and something we have to deal with today.



The dominant ideas in society being those of the ruling class doesn't preclude the working class developing their own alternatives without being convinced by a vanguard party. The battle for ideas can be fought without the need for leninism.

Louis MacNeice


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 1, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> you need to read what I have said.  I never mentioned attica.  I am not talking about generalities, I am talking about the specific discussion in this thread.
> 
> Also I find your attitude elitist.  I keep poor company everyday, their called ordinary non political (by your standards) working class people.


I'm talking about TBH etc, you muppet!


> _Edited to add.  When you mentioned keeping the poor company, it seemed you were still referring to Balders etc.  It's now occurred to me you were referring to the swp._


_
Nope. If I were referring to the Swappies I'd mention by name, like I always do.  



			If so, in answer to your question.  Yes, Your arguments are hard to follow, you veer into irrelevancy and personal attack at the slightest provocation, BUT to me it is sectarian to paint all anarchist's as "poor company", as it to paint all trots as "poor company".  It seems contradictory to say, we shouldn't ignore working class fascists because of the poor company they keep, but we should ignore working class trots because of the company they keep.
		
Click to expand...

_Nice, but irrelevant given I wasn't talking about trots in general or Swappies in particular. 


> again, you need to read what I said.  I never mentioned everybody accepting what you say, I was talking about your inability to accept genuine disagreement.  To accept people can genuinely disagree with you.  It is impossible for every argument to be taken to their conclusion, our different life experiences, politics etc. will lead us to different conclusions.


Our experiences will lead us to different circumstantial conclusions (i.e. what's sauce for the goose isn't necessarily sauce for the gander), but they don't alter the factual basis on which an argument is made.
Perhaps what you're trying to say is interpretations will vary depending on perspective?


> That shouldn't make us enemies, but it too often does for u75 anarchists.
> again read, I said not being able to believe that people can genuinely disagree with you, is absurd, and leads you to silly conclusions.  An opinion, I could be wrong about.
> 
> I really find this an intriguing mystery.  Why would I lie?  How could I convince you I am not lying?


I don't think you're lying, I think you're fooling yourself by believing you're more "inclusive" and/or tolerant than you actually are. We all like to believe we're better than we actually are. You, me and everyone else.


> Again, you seem to find it completely impossible that anyone can hold a different opinion to you, genuinely.  For you, it all seems to be about ego, not wanting to be wrong.  For me, it is totally illogical to say anything else than what I have said.  Why would I be against any victory against fascism?


You're missing the point. It isn't about who is wrong or right, it's about whether strategies and tactics are appropriate.
You see, while I believe with all my heart that victory against the hard right is important, I'm not impressed by "little victories", unless they're part of a strategy toward a "big victory". Just reacting (which is unfortunately what much anti-fascism has been pretty much *doomed* to in the last decades) may get the scum off the street short-term, but it does little toward a long-term solution, just as (IMO) adopting an "expose the BNP"/"vote Labour" doesn't work long-term (in that it perpetuates the socio-economic issues that have led to resurgence). That's why I can't throw myself behind UAF or HNH. Because while their intentions may be pure, their tactics don't propose a reasonable *solution* (and *no*, I *don't* mean internment camps for the BNP and NF! ). 



> The more strategies we have, the more chance of success.


Most strategists and philosophers would disagree with you, as do I.
What's important, IMO is to have a *choice of strategies*, and to choose the strategy with the *best hope of success*, not to operate several dozen strategies in parallel, with different anti-fascists accidentally pissing on each others' shoes.  


> Not only that, your strategy is about overthrowing capitalism, as much as defending against fascism.


This is something that really pisses me off about the current crop of anti-fascists: Why should it be about "defending against fascism"? Why is it rarely about taking the (intellectual and physical) fight to *them* and putting them on the defensive anymore?


> Why wouldn't I wish you every success?  I've said loads of times, if I had a choice between a Leninist revolution, and an anarchist revolution, I'd choose the anarchist every time.


I'm not that fond of the Beatles either.  


> _Edited to add.  To me achieving communism/anarchism, the goal, is more important than winning this sectarian squabble._  To me we should be comrades, we want exactly the same thing, we just disagree about how to achieve it.


Does my picking holes in your argument(s) mean that I don't agree with your aims?
Or does it perhaps mean that while I believe you could be going about things the wrong way (and I do!!!), that I believe your aims are just?


> butchers?



Nope, others from all shades of the spectrum.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Mar 1, 2010)

Random said:


> Still obsessed, I see.


 why have you repeated the same links four times, and then edited them in a deceitful manner?


----------



## Random (Mar 1, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> why have you repeated the same links four times, and then edited them in a deceitful manner?



all part of the big conspiracy


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 1, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> but that's your problem, you cant understand the difference between a genuine disagreement, and a liar.


Oh, I know the difference.  


> You've just call me a liar, (which is of little concern because any Internet debating forum is an irelevance to any logical person)...


No, I didn't. The only person that I've called a liar on this thread is tbaldwin. 


> you say that they SW CC are lying.


Not quite, I said they're a bunch of power-grasping (veritable king shits of turd mountain!!) careerists in whose interest it would be to dupe the membership. 


> It appears according to you , everybody is lying, if they disagree with you.


Your analysis, as usual, is impeccable inaccurate. 


> I do not think you're lying, I believe you're completely genuine, your just wrong.


Where as I think you're a wrong'un.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 1, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> Yeah, fair comment.  We believe the organised fascists, and capitalist, need an equally organised working class to smash them.  The working class is not even, as we have discussed there is contradictory levels of consciousness.  And the most revolutionary of the working class, need to organise, to win the argument with the working class that they should create classless society.


I don't personally believe you need such "purity". I'd argue that a good example set before people tends to take on a momentum of its own. This is what happened in the '70s with the NF. It wasn't just the marches and protests that did the job, it was people from one estate or road or close getting together to fuck the Nazis off, and folks on other estates etc realising "we don't have to put up with that shit either, lets do what those folk down the road did", and gradually you had an informal network, where people would phone each other if the slugs were canvassing locally, so a welcome party could be arranged. It doesn't have to be primarily about doctrine or dogma, let alone about a revolutionary vanguard!


> Just out of interest.  In your experience if you talk to 100 ordinary people, and you say, what we need to achieve is a classless society, how many would automatically understand what you are talking about, and say yes?


Probably about 50%, but that's mainly due to local issues about education etc, where locals have caught on that you're more likely to get decent facilities etc if you're in an area that's more "middle-class" than if the local area is mostly council estates.
I think that there's a lot of shit talked about "class" when referring to peoples' awareness of either their own class position, or about the effects of class, because we've been indoctrinated for the last 50 years or more that class is irrelevant, and that it's the individual that's important, just as we've been indoctrinated to believe that there's little alternative to our national and local political establishments and institutions.


> there is nothing particularly new about the existence of those of us who, for one reason or another, have been discarded by Capitalism.  The Marxist analysis of the working classes has always included them.  But the fact remains, the point of struggle, is at the means of production.  Today as always in every form of class society that has existed, those who controlled the means of production, control society.


I think you've missed my point, which is that if *rhetoric* is exclusivist or perceived as exclusivist, your average w/c crip may not realise that the term "working class" actually includes them, and will be deterred from giving your politics and policies a fair hearing.
If you don't let people know explicitly that you're *for* them, some of them are going to assume you're against them.


> have no idea what his position is on anything, he refuses to discuss it.  So you are right.
> 
> I would never have guessed.  however, a meeting, is not the same as trying to build an anti fascist mass movement.  Starting with those who support fascism, is illogical.  That doesn't mean you ignore them.


Yeah, but you have to start somewhere, and if your starting point is to waffle about past victories to your current members, rather than representing to non-members exactly why you're the best route to denying their area to fascists, then you're on a hiding to nothing, don't you think?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 1, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> you're absolutely right, my question was "just out of interest", trying to better understand vps butchs notion of contradictory levels of consciousness.
> 
> However, this topic, consciousness (where the vast majority of ordinary people's heads are at politically), is directly linked to the fight against fascism, because it's about strategy. If you don't answer these questions, it's a bit like us all going on a coach trip, but not telling the driver where we going, you end up going nowhere fast.  The fascists and the capitalists strategise, and so should anti-fascists.
> 
> ...



I don't believe there's a circle to square. You're assuming policy when the best strategy is to not tie yourself to a preconceived "line", and to address situations as and when they occur. "Anarchy" is an ongoing state, not a goal to be aimed at, attained and codified/fossilised.


----------



## tbaldwin (Mar 1, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> I did at the time(s). You blustered and then stropped S. O. fucking P.



You sad bastard. You claim i'm a liar but cant post to one post that proves it? You have over 10,000 to choose from. 
But much as you wish you could prove that anyone who doubts your authority is a liar this time yoiuve failed.....Oh well.....


----------



## TremulousTetra (Mar 1, 2010)

ResistanceMP3;10373157]Any move said:


> Yes, we all know that Leninists like you are convinced that the working class can only achieve freedom from capitalist delusions through your party's intervention.


[/QUOTE]So Freddy vp, butch, and random DO agree with the swp, that the dominant ideas in any society are those of the ruling class, because of the intervention of the ruling class.  You also agree that they can be moved towards fascism, because of the intervention of the fascists.  But, you still haven't squared the circle for me.  How do anarchist's etc change this consciousness, without intervening?  You seem to any be against intervention, are you?  I dont think you are, I think what you're realy saying it is OK for anarchist to intervene in the class struggle, but not Leninist.   Why?>


Random said:


> Yes, we all know that Leninists like you are convinced that the working class can only achieve freedom from capitalist delusions through your party's intervention.


that is another strawman random. swp Lenninist's don't say  that the working class can only achieve freedom from capitalist "delusions" through swp intervention, in fact quite the opposite.  The phrase that is heard over and over, is "ideas change in struggle".  This is exactly the same notion as Freddy B was applying, that's why I agreed with him.






			
				ResistanceMP3;10372060 said:
			
		

> FreddyB;10370206 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It is this idea which is the foundation stone of the united front.    In SA, Respect, UAF, Poll Tax, etc, it's about the dominant ideas in society of the ruling class been challenged, because the working class has develop their own alternatives to achieve their aims.  Revolutionaries dont change people's ideas, the class struggle does.  Revolutionary anarchists, Lenninst's, etc are merely acting as the memory of the class, the university, but in the end only the the working class can decide whether or not to take up these memories lessons from the past.  It is impossible to impose them, because as the swp and anarchist's agree, the emancipation of the working class, has to be the act of the working class.

So, the ANL was a perfectly legitimate form of intervention according to practices you lot have outlined imho.  The same or may not be said at the moment, about the UAF imho.


----------



## The Black Hand (Mar 1, 2010)

*Days of rage*



ViolentPanda said:


> TBH/attica: I accept that he believes what he says, and I know he's got his treasured doctorate so that the world knows how clever he is, but I also am well aware of how other politicised people view him (due to his self-aggrandising and occasionally destructive actions over the years). He likes to tar anyone who disagrees with his pronouncements as "ultra-left" (see above, for example). What does that say for the "genuineness" of his conclusions, hmm?



Destructive actions? I'd love to destroy most of the fekking irrelevant so called London 'anarchists' who do nothing useful, who create no realistic political alliances and so on. Instead they are fetishistically clinging onto an ultra left version of politics of purity - they will always be fekking useless. It fills me with no joy to say this, but having been there and done it, seen what they are like and so on those are the conclusions I have come too. They have no way of being with people other than anarchists, and that is one of the reasons why the anarchist movement has shed so many good people who move on.

Ultra left is easy to understand, it is those who eschew work in united and or popular fronts, who are critical of charities without any alternative, who are critical of Trade Unions without a mass membership organisation, who generally can't work with other groups of civil society who are not anarchist. That is what the anarchists are like, that is why they have fallen out with me cos I have called it as it really is.

That bizarre rationalisation about the genuineness of my conclusions is just pure rubbish. The logic, framework and descriptions of my theoretical and evidence gathering approaches are clear. That you do not critisize them and come up with baseless generalisations says that it is YOUR conclusions that are suspect. If you were genuine you would critisise the arguments themselves not the person saying it. Politics not people should ALWAYS be the starting point for political debate.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Mar 1, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> I don't believe there's a circle to square. You're assuming policy when the best strategy is to not tie yourself to a preconceived "line", and to address situations as and when they occur. "Anarchy" is an ongoing state, not a goal to be aimed at, attained and codified/fossilised.


1st that doesn't make thise any clearer





> For example what I understand the anarchists vp butch to be saying is, if you do not have an alternative not just to fascism, but to the causes of fascism, capitalism, you're going to be involved in a labour of sisyphus. Everytime you roll back the threat of fascism, it comes back again, because you haven't got rid of the causes. Not only that, that in the fight against fascism you employ anarchy. The means and the ends are the same thing. The only way to create anarchy in the future, is to be anarchy in the present. So for them, it isn't just about getting stuck in, there is also immediate strategy shaped by their long-term strategy, goals and objectives.


 what we're aiming for though is a classless society.  in achieving that how does your ""Anarchy" is an ongoing state"  differ from my " The means and the ends are the same thing. The only way to create anarchy in the future, is to be anarchy in the present. "  Am I mirepresenting you?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 1, 2010)

tbaldwin said:


> You sad bastard. You claim i'm a liar but cant post to one post that proves it? You have over 10,000 to choose from.
> But much as you wish you could prove that anyone who doubts your authority is a liar this time yoiuve failed.....Oh well.....



You live in your own little dreamworld, don't you? 

BTW, I don't *have* any authority, and don't pretend to (I speak for no-one but myself, whereas you're forever speaking for "most people", aren't you?), so don't try and pull that petty shite, there's a good boy.


----------



## tbaldwin (Mar 1, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> You live in your own little dreamworld, don't you?
> 
> BTW, I don't *have* any authority, and don't pretend to (I speak for no-one but myself, whereas you're forever speaking for "most people", aren't you?), so don't try and pull that petty shite, there's a good boy.



Still not found a single example then?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 1, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> Destructive actions? I'd love to destroy most of the fekking irrelevant so called London 'anarchists' who do nothing useful, who create no realistic political alliances and so on. Instead they are fetishistically clinging onto an ultra left version of politics of purity - they will always be fekking useless. It fills me with no joy to say this, but having been there and done it, seen what they are like and so on those are the conclusions I have come too. They have no way of being with people other than anarchists, and that is one of the reasons why the anarchist movement has shed so many good people who move on.
> 
> Ultra left is easy to understand, it is those who eschew work in united and or popular fronts, who are critical of charities without any alternative, who are critical of Trade Unions without a mass membership organisation, who generally can't work with other groups of civil society who are not anarchist. That is what the anarchists are like, that is why they have fallen out with me cos I have called it as it really is.
> 
> That bizarre rationalisation about the genuineness of my conclusions is just pure rubbish. The logic, framework and descriptions of my theoretical and evidence gathering approaches are clear. That you do not critisize them and come up with baseless generalisations says that it is YOUR conclusions that are suspect. If you were genuine you would critisise the arguments themselves not the person saying it. Politics not people should ALWAYS be the starting point for political debate.



So if your "ultra left" label accords to the definition you give above, how is it you use it on people who don't conform to your own definition?

You're a clever lad, I'm sure you can backwards engineer a definition that more closely matches the actual spectrum of people you attach the label to if you put your mind to it.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 1, 2010)

tbaldwin said:


> Still not found a single example then?



As I said a couple of pages ago, I'm not looking. Did you miss that oft-repeated point in your self-righteous indignation?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 2, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> 1st that doesn't make thise any clearer


Speaking for myself, I think you're seeing anarchism and a state of anarchy (not quite the same thing) as a political platform with specific pre-established goals. It's more amorphous than that because it isn't about having a political class to manage a state, it's about (IMO) living for ourselves and each other without recourse to those sorts of structures, finding solutions to issues on an _ad hoc_ basis, and involving the community in formulating those solutions.
Okay, so not everyone gets their ideas used, but everyone gets an *open* say, untrammelled by party lines and party discipline, and without the baggage of some over-arching pre-codified ideology "setting the course" for any solutions.


> what we're aiming for though is a classless society.  in achieving that how does your ""Anarchy" is an ongoing state"  differ from my " The means and the ends are the same thing. The only way to create anarchy in the future, is to be anarchy in the present. "  Am I mirepresenting you?



Only, I think, on scale. You still seem to have the idea of a homogeneous "movement" that doesn't really reflect reality (which is that if you have two anarchists in the room, you'll soon have three different arguments starting about which dead old guy had the best take on things ).


----------



## The Black Hand (Mar 2, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> A) So if your "ultra left" label accords to the definition you give above, how is it you use it on people who don't conform to your own definition?
> 
> B) You're a clever lad, I'm sure you can backwards engineer a definition that more closely matches the actual spectrum of people you attach the label to if you put your mind to it.



A) I was not aware that i had, who are you talking about?

B) There is no need for B because A has not happened as far as I am aware. If i have used it mistakenly I will admit it, but as far as I know I have used it appropriately.


----------



## sihhi (Mar 2, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> Destructive actions? *I'd love to destroy most of the fekking irrelevant so called London 'anarchists'* who do nothing useful, who create no realistic political alliances and so on. Instead they are fetishistically clinging onto an ultra left version of politics of purity - they will always be fekking useless. It fills me with no joy to say this, but *having been there and done it, s*een what they are like and so on those are the conclusions I have come too. They have no way of being with people other than anarchists, and that is one of the reasons why the anarchist movement has shed so many good people who move on.



Do you count your older self as one of the fekking irrelevant or not?


----------



## audiotech (Mar 2, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> As I said a couple of pages ago, I'm not looking. Did you miss that oft-repeated point in your self-righteous indignation?



To be fair, it's pretty reasonable to ask you to post the evidence of someone lying in a post. Afterall, it may make others think you're the one doing the lying here?


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## ViolentPanda (Mar 2, 2010)

MC5 said:


> To be fair, it's pretty reasonable to ask you to post the evidence of someone lying in a post.


It might be if I hadn't made it clear that I wasn't going to trawl through six years of his shit to find specific posts *before* he started pulling his "wounded pride" _schtick_.


> Afterall, it may make others think you're the one doing the lying here?


Perhaps, but frankly I'm not that arsed. If I had a history of mendacity I might be worried, but I don't.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 2, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> A) I was not aware that i had, who are you talking about?


Mr. O'Hara, for example, he doesn't fit your definition (except perhaps in your own imagination).


> B) There is no need for B because A has not happened as far as I am aware. If i have used it mistakenly I will admit it, but as far as I know I have used it appropriately.


And yet A) exists.
Perhaps it's the case that your label is your own version of an "enemy of the state" label, where anyone who you argue with is discursively transformed into a state of membership of this "ultra-left", where "ultra-left" encompasses whatever *you*, and only you, want it to, rather than a rational category of political ideology.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Mar 2, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> Speaking for myself, I think you're seeing anarchism and a state of anarchy (not quite the same thing) as a political platform with specific pre-established goals. It's more amorphous than that because it isn't about having a political class to manage a state, it's about (IMO) living for ourselves and each other without recourse to those sorts of structures, finding solutions to issues on an _ad hoc_ basis, and involving the community in formulating those solutions.
> Okay, so not everyone gets their ideas used, but everyone gets an *open* say, untrammelled by party lines and party discipline, and without the baggage of some over-arching pre-codified ideology "setting the course" for any solutions.
> 
> 
> Only, I think, on scale. You still seem to have the idea of a homogeneous "movement" that doesn't really reflect reality (which is that if you have two anarchists in the room, you'll soon have three different arguments starting about which dead old guy had the best take on things ).


 you know, you are the only anarchist on here, who can actually talk about what you think.  Every single one I have come across, define them self, by what they are against, rather than what they are for.

I think you are presuming too much about what I think.  I totally understand what you're saying there.  





ViolentPanda said:


> I don't personally believe you need such "purity". I'd argue that a good example set before people tends to take on a momentum of its own. This is what happened in the '70s with the NF. It wasn't just the marches and protests that did the job, it was people from one estate or road or close getting together to fuck the Nazis off, and folks on other estates etc realising "we don't have to put up with that shit either, lets do what those folk down the road did", and gradually you had an informal network, where people would phone each other if the slugs were canvassing locally, so a welcome party could be arranged. It doesn't have to be primarily about doctrine or dogma, let alone about a revolutionary vanguard!


 the funny thing is, the swp eulogise about this also.

So getting back to the topic, when you say "give up anti-fascism", you would also rule out the above?  For some reason like it's no longer possible?

ps, I don't mind you correcting my wording, it often helps to clarify what you're saying, but if you stop trying to second guess me, and realise my interest is purely non partisan, academic, it will be more interesting.

I did explain when I first came on 7 years ago, my interest in the rest of the left, was a bit like watching the discovery channel.  Sure I am sw, and probably always will be (regardless of whether SW remains SW), but that doesn't mean that the rest of the left cannot pique my genuine interest.  That it has taken seven years to get an answer on contradictory levels of consciousness, comes from his inability to chill imo.  It is not as if an Internet forum is of any consequence.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 2, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> you know, you are the only anarchist on here, who can actually talk about what you think.  Every single one I have come across, define them self, by what they are against, rather than what they are for.


I don't actually see anything intrinsically wrong with any ideologically-motivated person defining themselves by what they're against (in fact it's what most politicians seem to do!), but it doesn't present a "holistic" picture, does it?


> I think you are presuming too much about what I think.  I totally understand what you're saying there.   the funny thing is, the swp eulogise about this also.


But from a slightly different perspective. From what I remember of what I heard and read, the swp have always maintained an emphasis on what I'd call "ultimate control", in that they lionise revolutionary activity on the one hand, but want to harness it to their own ends on the other, whereas the empowerment of communities and the individuals in their communities is more usually the end for anarchism, unless you have (as some anarchists do) a programme and a platform for further and or wider political action.


> So getting back to the topic, when you say "give up anti-fascism", you would also rule out the above?  For some reason like it's no longer possible?


I haven't said "give up anti-fascism", so much as I've said "seek effective measures, not symbolic ones". *If* we leave in place the causes of hard-right resurgence (i.e. by voting for the existing neo-liberal political parties), then while we may temporarily roll the hard-right itself back, we leave in place the structural factors that have militated towards that resurgence.
To put it simply: By adopting a strategy that displaces the BNP rather than seeking to eliminate the causes of their rise, we grant permission to them to come back and have another go, and by doing so, a message gets sent to people who otherwise might have fucked the BNP off that "nobody gives a shit, or they'd have got rid of this shower ages ago".

I don't like seeing the BNP given leeway to legitimate their shit-house brand of politics, but that seems to be the way things are going unless decisions are made to challenge them on the basis of their politics, rather than on the basis of the personal histories of their candidates, with a little bit of politics thrown in. 


> ps, I don't mind you correcting my wording, it often helps to clarify what you're saying, but if you stop trying to second guess me, and realise my interest is purely non partisan, academic, it will be more interesting.


But, but..it's so much fun to tease swappies and second guess them!!
You wouldn't deprive me of my fun, would you? 




> I did explain when I first came on 7 years ago, my interest in the rest of the left, was a bit like watching the discovery channel.  Sure I am sw, and probably always will be (regardless of whether SW remains SW), but that doesn't mean that the rest of the left cannot pique my genuine interest.  That it has taken seven years to get an answer on contradictory levels of consciousness, comes from his inability to chill imo.  It is not as if an Internet forum is of any consequence.


It's as good a forum as anywhere to exchange views, and for people like us with difficulty getting around, more accessible than some physical venues.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 2, 2010)

'his'


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 2, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> 'his'



_Que_?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 2, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> _Que_?



it's alright, he's from barcelona.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 2, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


> it's alright, he's from barcelona.



Shut it, Sybil!


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## The Black Hand (Mar 5, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> Mr. O'Hara, for example, he doesn't fit your definition (except perhaps in your own imagination).
> 
> And yet A) exists.
> Perhaps it's the case that your label is your own version of an "enemy of the state" label, where anyone who you argue with is discursively transformed into a state of membership of this "ultra-left", where "ultra-left" encompasses whatever *you*, and only you, want it to, rather than a rational category of political ideology.



That's because you have joined the Lizards.

A) exists does it? Well cop this, when I describe something somebody has said as Ultra left, it does not automatically mean every inch of their being is Ultra left. What it does mean is that this particular aspect of their thought is ultra left.

You know, or you should be aware of my analysis, that says there is no b/w model. You are not either TOTALLY ultra left or totally not ultra left. Instead there is a continuum, ranging from totally ultra left at one end, to the opposite at the other end (in short a leftism, or anarchism if you prefer, that is pluralistic and totally open). 

Those around here are certainly towards the ultra leftist end of the spectrum, of that I am in no doubt and I do not think 'rational political debate' could think any other way. The outside and against the Labour movement position IS ultra leftist, and that includes political formulations and strategy that thinks  'we have to be pure', 'we have to start again' etc....

Evidence of larrys ultra leftism is where he uses the politics of the playground and uses his 'trump card' and says "tag, you're state". Its pathetic ultra leftism and if you can't see that you're blind or do not want to see. Here's the "tag, you're state" post, *the last line* http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=10367923&postcount=2980

Independent thought is not allowed UNLESS it conforms to ultra leftism, and I know, and everybody should, that that is the road to nowhere.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Mar 5, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> That's because you have joined the Lizards.
> 
> A) blah blah blah...



TBH  earlier:







'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone,' it means just what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less.'

Shame he doesn't have a bit more of this sort of self awareness:






'...it is a tale.  Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, Signifying nothing.'

Louis MacNeice


----------



## The Black Hand (Mar 5, 2010)

Rubbish, get off, etc.

That was my Eric Morecambe impression
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Morecambe


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 6, 2010)

Nothing important- just interesting for a comment i've quoted below:

University College School's mock election ‘goes too far’




> ONE of the country’s best-regarded private schools has found itself under fire for allowing a British National Party (BNP) candidate to stand in mock general elections this week.
> 
> The 17-year-old candidate came second in the pretend elections at University College School in Frognal, Hampstead, on Tuesday but insisted he had only done it to “mock” the party.



blah blah etc

But this, this is genius:



> One recent student criticised the BNP’s inclusion and said it had no place in a school founded on the principles of a radical 18th-century thinker.
> 
> He said: “It’s amazing that a school that was founded on the Liberal ideals of Jeremy Bentham allows a racist and fascist party to stand."


----------



## audiotech (Mar 6, 2010)

No doubt a painful and pleasurable experience for all concerned.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Mar 6, 2010)

_University College School's mock election ‘goes too far’_

Also interesting because not even a desperate local rag would be likely to cover the story if any other small or medium party had a candidate. "BNP = News" once again, though you might have a go at me for daring to point it out.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Mar 6, 2010)

Metro had an interview with Nick Clegg about 10 days ago. The front page reference and about 1/2 the article were given over to his opinion on the BNP. You can bet your arse he had other things to say and wouldn't have dwelt on a much smaller party for an amount of time proportionate to coverage. But what Cleggie thinks and says doesnt count as much as a chance to mention every rag's favourite anti-heros.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 6, 2010)

Cleggie? More Cleggie demands greens. Let Cleggie speak. In the metro.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 6, 2010)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> _University College School's mock election ‘goes too far’_
> 
> Also interesting because not even a desperate local rag would be likely to cover the story if any other small or medium party had a candidate. "BNP = News" once again, though you might have a go at me for daring to point it out.



Dare away my brave warrior boy.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Mar 6, 2010)

Butcher's: You have never appeared to accept my premise that the fascist party gets disproportionate coverage for their size. Could you outline why that is?

btw: I don't post here on behalf of a party any more than you do. As I've said before, it would be a sad and ineffectual thing to do and I would probably be a lot more considered.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Mar 6, 2010)

Another instance: a couple of months ago the Manchester Evening News ran about 3/4 page on the selection of a fascist candidate to run against Blears in Salford, with a nice big photo. No candidate for any other seat or party has had such a big article since. They are presumably not hate-fuelled enough to qualify as "news"


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 7, 2010)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Another instance: a couple of months ago the Manchester Evening News ran about 3/4 page on the selection of a fascist candidate to run against Blears in Salford, with a nice big photo. No candidate for any other seat or party has had such a big article since. They are presumably not hate-fuelled enough to qualify as "news"



Actually the MEN ran days and days  of anti BNP articles during the last election mainly supplied by Searchlight.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Mar 7, 2010)

The39thStep said:


> Actually the MEN ran days and days  of anti BNP articles during the last election mainly supplied by Searchlight.



Yes, and Oscar's law that being talked about is worse than not being talked about was, I think,  suspended for those articles. They were pretty good.

But it still conforms to the theory: Fascism is news. Hate sells.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Mar 7, 2010)

But "no such thing as bad publicity" seems to be suspended as well

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/davehi...bc-london-dominic-carman-barking-constituency


----------



## audiotech (Mar 7, 2010)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> But "no such thing as bad publicity" seems to be suspended as well
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/davehi...bc-london-dominic-carman-barking-constituency



I noticed Dominic Carmen was due to appear on the same programme as the one Griffin refused to appear on. Carman says he 'doesn't have a silver bullet, one specific piece of info so damaging to Nick Griffin that it would lose him all credibility, but Carmen does say the information he does claim to have can be presented in such a way it will make Griffin "uncomfortable".

The claim of a photo existing of Griffin giving a straight arm salute in Scotland not surfaced yet? Some dosh out there, if true, for the someone who has in the past claimed to have such a negative?



...


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 7, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Nothing important- just interesting for a comment i've quoted below:
> 
> University College School's mock election ‘goes too far’
> 
> ...



He hasn't thought the angles through properly, has he?
Don't they teach secondary school kids about utilitarianism or about Bentham's penal ideas nowadays?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 7, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> That's because you have joined the Lizards.


Or, and I'm obviously just speculating here, it could be because you're a fucking fruitloop.


> A) exists does it? Well cop this, when I describe something somebody has said as Ultra left, it does not automatically mean every inch of their being is Ultra left. What it does mean is that this particular aspect of their thought is ultra left.


And what about when you describe a *person* as "ultra-left", eh?
Want me to post up some of the veritable avalanche of links to occasions where you've described a *person* or *persons* in such terms?


> You know, or you should be aware of my analysis, that says there is no b/w model. You are not either TOTALLY ultra left or totally not ultra left. Instead there is a continuum, ranging from totally ultra left at one end, to the opposite at the other end (in short a leftism, or anarchism if you prefer, that is pluralistic and totally open).


I'm aware of your analysis.



> Those around here are certainly towards the ultra leftist end of the spectrum...


Many a slip 'tween cup and lip".
Surely you meant "Those around here *have views that are* certainly toward the ultra leftist end of the spectrum"?
After all, it's their views you're giving your opinion of, right, rather than their persons?


> ....of that I am in no doubt...


And therein lies, perhaps, your biggest problem. The arrogance that's always on display, the certainty. 


> and I do not think 'rational political debate' could think any other way. The outside and against the Labour movement position IS ultra leftist, and that includes political formulations and strategy that thinks  'we have to be pure', 'we have to start again' etc....
> 
> Evidence of larrys ultra leftism is where he uses the politics of the playground and uses his 'trump card' and says "tag, you're state". Its pathetic ultra leftism and if you can't see that you're blind or do not want to see. Here's the "tag, you're state" post, *the last line* http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=10367923&postcount=2980
> 
> Independent thought is not allowed UNLESS it conforms to ultra leftism, and I know, and everybody should, that that is the road to nowhere.



Interesting that you translate Larry's "Good, however, for the clarification of exactly who you are lining up alongside nowadays" as him saying "tag, you're state", when what he's actually saying is (to paraphrase) "you're allying yourself with idiots".

Same old attica, same old paranoia.


----------



## sihhi (Mar 7, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Nothing important- just interesting for a comment i've quoted below:
> 
> University College School's mock election ‘goes too far’
> 
> ...



Jeremy Bentham on Australian aborigines



> How was it in New South Wales? The *native inhabitants a set of brutes in human shape*—the *very dregs even of savage life*—a species of society beyond comparison less favourable to colonization than utter solitude; *a set of living nuisances*, prepared at all times for all sorts of mischief: for plundering the industrious;† for quarrelling with the quarrelsome;‡ for affording harbour to the fugitive


----------



## The Black Hand (Mar 8, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> A) Or, and I'm obviously just speculating here, it could be because you're a fucking fruitloop.
> 
> B) And what about when you describe a *person* as "ultra-left", eh?
> Want me to post up some of the veritable avalanche of links to occasions where you've described a *person* or *persons* in such terms?
> ...



A) Why must the mental health prejeudice be ignored, if it was racist in this way you would be on your high horse. It is intellectual lazyness, prejeudice, and/or a dodgy agenda that leads to such reactionary gibberish.

B) So? Yes I describe ideas as ultra left, that is what they are and where they belong.

C) Ho ho ho, 'the arrogance, the certainty'. You are probably in denial and are trying vainly to cover up for the ultra left content of much anarchist politics. 
The first stage in getting over the problem is _acceptance_. It is clear to me that the descriptions of the political spectrum I made are comprehensive and accurate, and I think they would be to any genuinly independent (neutral) reader. Of that I am sure, it is called poltical experience, based on comprehensive knowledge. There could be other ways of presenting the ideas I have that is true, but the categories themselves are not up for much change, and the placing of the politics is I think is also reasonable. Funnily enough, I do think whether what I say is reasonable in advance. That you may not like what I say is *your problem*, it is not mine.

D) It's the same thing Panda. The level of conspiracy theory, the tracking of people, the smopke and whispers is part and parcel of Borderland. That you choose to interpret that post in such a benign manner is either a) dishonest, or b) niave. As I said earlier, that 'some are blind or do not wish to see'. To say I am allying myself with Searchlight/HnH is at worst either lies or at best, a simply ignorant statement. 

(You havene't been paying attention much because...) It is clear in the publications I have contributed to that I see the area of autonomy that could break out of the anti fascist impasse identified as existing 'BETWEEN Searchlight/HnH and the ultra left'. It is this political space that is important and one where a new politics suitable for our time may develop. 

Just because I have made a clear intellectual statement (as other have noted - 'the evidence is inconclusive') that there is no evidence that the ultra left have that shows that Searchlight/HnH have not helped to hold the BNP voting level down, is not rocket science, and it certainly DOES NOT mean I have allied with them in anyway shape or form. That is an old left hangover, 'accept the (ultra left) party viewpoint', OR you are the enemy. OLD LEFT OLD LEFT! That's you lot that is, totally incapable of seeing an independent point of view.

E) Who?             As for paranoid, when people are out to get you, as is totally clear on the web then paranoia would be a natural result of peoples attempts (and I am including you here) to have a go at the intellectual contribution I have made. 

Actually, I do not think what I have said is paranoid, it is a natural result of the sad political state of what passes for anti fascism, and I include varieties of anti fascism who deny they are anti fascist here as you all know.  What I am doing and will continue to do, is keep hope alive of a way forward that is reasonable, that can transcend political and organisational boundaries, that is not reliant on ultra left gibberish. That is the way towards autonomous political growth and political success. It IS different to what the ultra left say, accept it and move on. 

ALl these constant digs help nobody and IMHO are diversionary from the struggle.


----------



## The Black Hand (Mar 8, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> Because everyone reads the _Mirror_, don't they?



People do pick up other papers than what they buy, they may get other papers on trains, in doctors, in pubs, in cafes and so on. They do not read each and every issue that is true, far from that in fact, but the recurring promotion of HnH in the Mirror is probably more widely known than you could imagine.


----------



## The Black Hand (Mar 8, 2010)

sihhi said:


> Do you count your older self as one of the fekking irrelevant or not?



You posted a comment and I am doing the couresy of a personal reply. I do not know who you are btw, a name check would be nice via PM as you obviously know who I am. Anyway to answer your observation.

'I would love to destroy most the the feeking irrelevant london anarchos' is a comment I made with emphasis on MOST. 'Most' as you know could be 51%, that would leave 49% who I get along with. Basically, and there are many reasons for it, but the purist ultra left forms of anarchism I have only anger and disdain towards now. They should know better. However, it is also clear that the ultra left see anarchists as a recruiting grounds (eg. ICC behaviour over the past nearly 2 decades, Red Action as well, and so on). Unfortunately Libcom is encouraging the ICC and other ultra left sects as well.

This is a very partial reading of political history and theory, their political emphasis and chart http://libcom.org/files/Tendency_Map.jpg

IS only a small part of the liberatarian Marxist tradition, there are huge holes in it, and I am thinking about EP Thompson, History Workshop, Humanist Marxism, New Left and so on. All vital for a serious understanding of the British condition.

I do not have any regrets as, like Oscar Wilde who I have quoted favourably, I think regrets are a block on development. Some of what I participated in was more irrelevant than others, there is a political spectrum/scale as I am fond of saying, it ranges from relevant at one end to irrelevant at the other, something is rarely totally relevant, (and relevant to whom?) or irrelevant, instead there are shades and degrees of this. 

What I am seeking to do is to be more comprehensive and therefore more relevant, to have a politics of growth that involves movements and alliances BEYOND the anarchists, and the anarchists have been shockingly bad at this. They wonder why they are irrelevant when they eschew trying to work with  eg. victims/family campaigns repeatedly, anarchists generally have no idea of political blocs and strategies that go beyond their party forms. There are exceptions, and the attempt to get an anti election alliance going could be part of this, BUT the proof is in the pudding, the exception that proves the rule and so on. 

There is no evidence of an effective political movement and practice around a campaign/cause that involves anarchist groups widely, that is not a tokenistic participation, that would involve serious and long term commitment.


----------



## The Black Hand (Mar 8, 2010)

The39thStep said:


> All quite comical this 'autonomous anti fascism' ....



Comical eh? Lets see what autonomous anti fascism is developing shall we?

In the Article "A Far Right Palava" 6.11.09 here;
http://www.schnews.org.uk/archive/news698.php
"all protesters are calling for continued mobilisations against the far-right, but autonomous from the UAF". 

"Autonomous anti-fascists in Nottingham have produced the first edition of a newsletter" 15.2.12;
http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2010/02/446183.html

04.03.2010 - The English Defence League (EDL) have made plans to march in Sheffield on 30th May. We call on autonomist anti-fascists to make a stand against them;
http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2010/03/446954.html


The theory and practice of Autonomous Anti Fascism is here;
http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2010/03/446872.html
Articles include;
"Why Anti Fascism, why autonomous, why now?" 
“Popular Front Anti Fascism” 
“Autonomous Anti Fascism: Towards Praxis” 

The movement that is emerging has to be autonomous from controlling old left groups and their newer variants, and from the Labour movement/Searchlight. Our time has come


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 8, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> A) Why must the mental health prejeudice be ignored, if it was racist in this way you would be on your high horse. It is intellectual lazyness, prejeudice, and/or a dodgy agenda that leads to such reactionary gibberish.


Talking bollocks as usual.
I called you a fruitloop *not* because I'm aware of any past mental health diagnoses that you've had (I'm not aware of such), but because your writings project disarray.
Yes, it's rude and dismissive, but IMO that's all you deserve.


> B) So? Yes I describe ideas as ultra left, that is what they are and where they belong.


I was talking about you describing *people* in those terms. Well-sidestepped.


> C) Ho ho ho, 'the arrogance, the certainty'. You are probably in denial and are trying vainly to cover up for the ultra left content of much anarchist politics.
> The first stage in getting over the problem is _acceptance_. It is clear to me that the descriptions of the political spectrum I made are comprehensive and accurate, and I think they would be to any genuinly independent (neutral) reader. Of that I am sure, it is called *poltical experience, based on comprehensive knowledge*.


As I said, "the arrogance, the certainty"! 


> There could be other ways of presenting the ideas I have that is true, but the categories themselves are not up for much change, and the placing of the politics is I think is also reasonable. Funnily enough, I do think whether what I say is reasonable in advance. That you may not like what I say is *your problem*, it is not mine.


It's not a problem for me at all. How could it be when the reality you posit doesn't actually exist?


> D) It's the same thing Panda. The level of conspiracy theory, the tracking of people, the smopke and whispers is part and parcel of Borderland. That you choose to interpret that post in such a benign manner is either a) dishonest, or b) niave. As I said earlier, that 'some are blind or do not wish to see'. To say I am allying myself with Searchlight/HnH is at worst either lies or at best, a simply ignorant statement.


Fortunate that I haven't said any such thing, and that O'Hara didn't either.
Try harder.


> (You havene't been paying attention much because...) It is clear in the publications I have contributed to that I see the area of autonomy that could break out of the anti fascist impasse identified as existing 'BETWEEN Searchlight/HnH and the ultra left'. It is this political space that is important and one where a new politics suitable for our time may develop.
> 
> Just because I have made a clear intellectual statement (as other have noted - 'the evidence is inconclusive') that there is no evidence that the ultra left have that shows that Searchlight/HnH have not helped to hold the BNP voting level down, is not rocket science, and it certainly DOES NOT mean I have allied with them in anyway shape or form. That is an old left hangover, 'accept the (ultra left) party viewpoint', OR you are the enemy. OLD LEFT OLD LEFT! That's you lot that is, totally incapable of seeing an independent point of view.
> 
> ...


Provide me with decent substantiation and I might well "accept it and move on", but in the absence of that...


> ALl these constant digs help nobody and IMHO are diversionary from the struggle.


So why keep making them?

Oh, I see what you mean. You mean the digs at YOU, while you get to blithely continue making digs and pigeon-holing others into your ridiculous oppositional category.


----------



## The Black Hand (Mar 8, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> Talking bollocks as usual.
> A) I called you a fruitloop *not* because I'm aware of any past mental health diagnoses that you've had (I'm not aware of such), but because your writings project disarray.
> Yes, it's rude and dismissive, but IMO that's all you deserve.
> 
> ...



A)AND its REACTIONARY.

I hAve answered the points already, you R just being obtuse. Completely unwilling to think about another way of being, u r adding nothing & r unwilling to think that there is a  political spectrum with the ultra left at one end. Anyway, can u get on with something useful? U R jus being a  reactionary unthinking shit. WEll done. now move on.

This is what U said clearly indicating you think I am allying with Searchlight; 

"Interesting that you translate Larry's "Good, however, for the clarification of exactly who you are lining up alongside nowadays" as him saying "tag, you're state", when what he's actually saying is (to paraphrase) "you're allying yourself with idiots".

YOu forgot U sed it didn't u.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 8, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> Comical eh? Lets see what autonomous anti fascism is developing shall we?
> 
> In the Article "A Far Right Palava" 6.11.09 here;
> http://www.schnews.org.uk/archive/news698.php
> ...


----------



## The Black Hand (Mar 8, 2010)

A self image;





The39thStep said:


>


Why he needs to post pictures of himself I do not know.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 9, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> A)AND its REACTIONARY.
> 
> I hAve answered the points already, you R just being obtuse. Completely unwilling to think about another way of being, u r adding nothing & r unwilling to think that there is a  political spectrum with the ultra left at one end. Anyway, can u get on with something useful? U R jus being a  reactionary unthinking shit. WEll done. now move on.


Blah-de-_ad hominem_-blah.


> This is what U said clearly indicating you think I am allying with Searchlight;
> 
> "Interesting that you translate Larry's "Good, however, for the clarification of exactly who you are lining up alongside nowadays" as him saying "tag, you're state", when what he's actually saying is (to paraphrase) "you're allying yourself with idiots".
> 
> YOu forgot U sed it didn't u.



No, but if you recall what O'Hara wrote (check the link you posted, why don't you? ), you'll know that _Searchlight_ isn't mentioned. Not once in the entire post in question.

Perhaps if you stopped reciting your revolutionary catechism while you're formulating replies to posts, you wouldn't make such egregious errors, old feller.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 9, 2010)

The39thStep said:


>



There's no need to accuse attica of being a Klingon!


----------



## The Black Hand (Mar 9, 2010)

*Panda Wanka*



ViolentPanda said:


> Blah-de-_ad hominem_-blah.
> 
> 
> No, but if you recall what O'Hara wrote (check the link you posted, why don't you? ), you'll know that _Searchlight_ isn't mentioned. Not once in the entire post in question.
> ...



Panda you've turned into a right fucking wanka. It is clear that is part of the sphere of discussions, you lot are fucking one dimensional. What I said before clearly fits, that independent thought is only allowed if it fits your preconceived ultra leftism.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 9, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> Panda you've turned into a right fucking wanka. It is clear that is part of the sphere of discussions, you lot are fucking one dimensional. What I said before clearly fits, that independent thought is only allowed if it fits your preconceived ultra leftism.


Blah-de-_ad hominem_-blah again, and this time with juvenile spelling rather than txtspk! Amazing!


----------



## The Black Hand (Mar 9, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> Blah-de-_ad hominem_-blah again, and this time with juvenile spelling rather than txtspk! Amazing!



WTF should I care about u fuckers? Wankers the lot of you (posters I argue with that is, not lurkas or other readas), a complete waste of space, and if anybody hasn't guessed already my patience has worn out today.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 9, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> WTF should I care about u fuckers? Wankers the lot of you (posters I argue with that is, not lurkas or other readas), a complete waste of space, and if anybody hasn't guessed already my patience has worn out today.



Tough.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Mar 9, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> WTF should I care about u fuckers? Wankers the lot of you (posters I argue with that is, not lurkas or other readas), a complete waste of space, and if anybody hasn't guessed already my patience has worn out today.



It could all have been avoided though couldn't it. You can cut and paste the following for your future use:

_Ooops my mistake; there edited. Hope that's better._​
Louis MacNeice


----------



## The Black Hand (Mar 9, 2010)

Louis MacNeice said:


> It could all have been avoided though couldn't it. You can cut and paste the following for your future use:
> 
> _Ooops my mistake; there edited. Hope that's better._​
> Louis MacNeice



You are irrelevant louis and a waste of space. Like t'other knob heds round ere.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 10, 2010)

Ha! Ha! Fantastic pic in the paper today from some anti-BNP play (A Day at the Racists):






How bang on the money and up-to-date is that


----------



## articul8 (Mar 10, 2010)

> Lustgarten's play depends upon two rather shaky propositions. One is that a discontented old Marxist militant would be naive enough to fall for BNP propaganda and become a party agent.



To be fair, an ex Militant organiser in the 80s Preston did get himself involved in the White Nationalist Party so it's not that unlikely - not that the pic above is the modern face of the BNP.


----------



## The Black Hand (Mar 11, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> Comical eh? Lets see what autonomous anti fascism is developing shall we?
> 
> In the Article "A Far Right Palava" 6.11.09 here;
> http://www.schnews.org.uk/archive/news698.php
> ...



A *review of the above pamphlet* that was not meant for publication, but I have removed all identyfying features so it is completely anonymous - 

"I have read it, its good and especially the 
critique of the ultra left. We would like some of course."


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 12, 2010)

articul8 said:


> To be fair, an ex Militant organiser in the 80s Preston did get himself involved in the White Nationalist Party so it's not that unlikely - not that the pic above is the modern face of the BNP.



who was that?

There was also that time when Griffin announced that they had recruited an ex IMG member and some of us are still in contact with the ex marxists for Griffin group


----------



## audiotech (Mar 12, 2010)

Redwell W (Well'borough BC)

Con 570 (57.17%)
Lab 186 (18.66%)
*BNP 84 (8.43%) -7.28%*
LibD 72 (7.22%)
EndD 62 (6.22%)
Grn 23 (2.31%)


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 12, 2010)

MC5 said:


> Redwell W (Well'borough BC)
> 
> Con 570 (57.17%)
> Lab 186 (18.66%)
> ...




Not a particularly good result. Did a bit better in Dacorum BC Adeyfield West ward (can some do the %?) - first time out i believe:

CON 486 
Lab 429 
LD 362 
BNP 203


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 12, 2010)

I was wrong. Let's all  clap state inteference in political association.



> The British National party (BNP) has been barred from taking new members after a judge ruled today that its constitution could discriminate against non-white people.
> 
> Judge Paul Collins issued an injunction ordering the far-right group to comply with race equality laws, adding that "the membership list will have to be closed until then".




It's an injunction on new members, not a final ruling.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Mar 12, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Not a particularly good result. Did a bit better in Dacorum BC Adeyfield West ward (can some do the %?) - first time out i believe:
> 
> CON 486
> Lab 429
> ...



Both are half decent results for fascism, one being a 3rd place, the other being credible enough of itself. The disproportionate media attention is paying dividends


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Mar 12, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> (can some do the %?)




Too much time on my hands?

CON 486 = 32.8%
Lab 429  = 28.9%
LD 362   = 24.6%
BNP 203 = 13.7%

The court story is deemed the 2nd most important in bullitin order on Radio 5. Nazis fart - they cover it.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 12, 2010)

It's a large story - don't pretend that its not. You'd whine like a dog if your party was in the same situ.


----------



## Fedayn (Mar 12, 2010)

articul8 said:


> To be fair, an ex Militant organiser in the 80s Preston did get himself involved in the White Nationalist Party



MN?


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Mar 12, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> It's a large story - don't pretend that its not. You'd whine like a dog if your party was in the same situ.



Small-ish party has a spot of bother with legal intepretations. Dull story except for the party being racist. It's the racism that's the story. Don't pretend it's not. If my party was in trouble and I thought it was unfair I would whine. I wouldn't expect next to top billing on news bulletins.


----------



## Combustible (Mar 12, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> I was wrong. Let's all  clap state inteference in political association.



That really is straw clutching. I mean don't most Trot and other left wing groups vet potential members in a similar way (don't know about home visits) and they presumably they expect new members to certain political principles.  Surely anyone who actually wanted to join the BNP 'legitimately' wouldn't be intimidated by a home visit.  I mean what does ""It would be jolly difficult for a mixed-race person to join the BNP without effectively denying themselves," actually mean.

BTW does anyone know if the EHRC had a statutory obligation to investigate the BNP for whatever reason or did they take it on themselves to launch it.  I mean why haven't similar proceedings been launched against the NF?


----------



## Davo1 (Mar 12, 2010)

Combustible said:


> That really is straw clutching. I mean don't most Trot and other left wing groups vet potential members in a similar way (don't know about home visits) and they presumably they expect new members to certain political principles.  Surely anyone who actually wanted to join the BNP 'legitimately' wouldn't be intimidated by a home visit.  I mean what does ""It would be jolly difficult for a mixed-race person to join the BNP without effectively denying themselves," actually mean.
> 
> BTW does anyone know if the EHRC had a statutory obligation to investigate the BNP for whatever reason or did they take it on themselves to launch it.  I mean why haven't similar proceedings been launched against the NF?



Er, no. They give them control of the budget instead:

http://www.workerspower.com/index.php?id=26,101,0,0,1,0


----------



## Divisive Cotton (Mar 12, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> I was wrong. Let's all  clap state inteference in political association.
> 
> 
> It's an injunction on new members, not a final ruling.



Reading it what they seem to object to is that prospective members will be visited at home - most small parties would carry out a home visit for new members


----------



## audiotech (Mar 12, 2010)

oops


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 12, 2010)

The BNP are now open for members. Don't have to agree with anything, just join and the call centre is open now.Please call.


----------



## The Black Hand (Mar 14, 2010)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Both are half decent results for fascism, one being a 3rd place, the other being credible enough of itself. The disproportionate media attention is paying dividends



True, they do nothing. All publicity is good publicity etc.


----------



## The Black Hand (Mar 14, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> I was wrong. Let's all  clap state inteference in political association.



They always have though, nothing new.


----------



## The Black Hand (Mar 14, 2010)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Small-ish party has a spot of bother with legal intepretations. Dull story except for the party being racist. It's the racism that's the story. Don't pretend it's not. If my party was in trouble and I thought it was unfair I would whine. I wouldn't expect next to top billing on news bulletins.



Well said.


----------



## The Black Hand (Mar 14, 2010)

BNP having a go at preventing government policy on targetting extremism being effective;
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/bnp-fights-extremism-strategy-1921046.html


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Mar 15, 2010)

'Neo-Nazi granny' is BNP candidate for Mayor of Lewisham  (pictured left)









> Tess Culnane, who previously ran unsuccessfully for the far-right National Front at the London Assembly, has now been named as the British National Party (BNP) candidate for Mayor of Lewisham.
> 
> Ms Culnane, a long-term resident of the borough, has also spoken at a meeting of the British People’s Party (BPP), an extreme-right group which supports repatriation of immigrants and banning abortion.
> 
> ...


----------



## IMR (Mar 16, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Ha! Ha! Fantastic pic in the paper today from some anti-BNP play (A Day at the Racists):
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Don't wanna go down in the tube station at midnight


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 16, 2010)

Jeff Robinson said:


> 'Neo-Nazi granny' is BNP candidate for Mayor of Lewisham  (pictured left)



That will put people off voting for her as similar revelations did with Andrew Brons


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Mar 16, 2010)

The39thStep said:


> That will put people off voting for her as similar revelations did with Andrew Brons



Yeah, best not mention it at all eh Step? After all, wouldn't want anything to get in the way of the seething jealousy of your disillusioned, ex-trot, post vanguardist existential crisis now would we?


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 16, 2010)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Yeah, best not mention it at all eh Step? After all, wouldn't want anything to get in the way of the seething jealousy of your disillusioned, ex-trot, post vanguardist existential crisis now would we?



I can understand the ex trot , post vanguardist bit but not the seething jealous and disillusioned existentialist crisis part. As someone who obviously has a naturally high sense of perception, self awareness and analysis can you develop your insight further? Or have you reached your zenith in cutting and pasting articles 'exposing' the fact that members of the far right were previously members of other far right groups?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 16, 2010)

Jeff Robinson said:


> 'Neo-Nazi granny' is BNP candidate for Mayor of Lewisham  (pictured left)


and which part of that is news?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 16, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


> and which part of that is news?



Am I seeing things, or is the circle and cross-hairs on those posters the old British Movement logo?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 16, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> Am I seeing things, or is the circle and cross-hairs on those posters the old British Movement logo?



it's a celtic cross, hardly unique to the bm


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 16, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


> it's a celtic cross, hardly unique to the bm



Hard to see. I thought it might be the old BM logo because it was next to a confederate flag, which the BM used to have a quaint fondness for.

And don't roll your eyes. It's bad for the digestion, you bilious old fart.

E2A: Since when has a Celtic cross had straight rather than flared arms?


----------



## The Black Hand (Mar 17, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> Am I seeing things, or is the circle and cross-hairs on those posters the old British Movement logo?



Am I seeing things or is that Ricky Tomlinson!


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Mar 17, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> E2A: Since when has a Celtic cross had straight rather than flared arms?



Well, it isn't as such a Celtic cross, more a sun-wheel.  And not exclusively BM (who still exist BTW: _Broadsword_ is essential reading for those aspiring to joined up writing).  The political soldier NF used the sunwheel a fair bit...

PS the picture isn't from a BNP meeting: looks like BPP, judging by personnel/logos.  I'll leave the omniscient TBH to tell you who they are (autonomously)...


----------



## fractionMan (Mar 17, 2010)

Fuck her for stealing the confederate flag too.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Mar 17, 2010)

Larry O'Hara said:


> PS the picture isn't from a BNP meeting: looks like BPP



Correct, background here:

http://www.socialistunity.com/?p=5244


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 17, 2010)

'stealing' it?


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 17, 2010)

Oops


----------



## audiotech (Mar 17, 2010)

Larry O'Hara said:


> . Well, it isn't as such a Celtic cross, more a sun-wheel.  And not exclusively BM (who still exist BTW: _Broadsword_ is essential reading for those aspiring to joined up writing).  The political soldier NF used the sunwheel a fair bit...



Final Conflict, the remnants of the political soldier NF, still use the sun-wheel as a masthead on their website, not essential reading.

Two of those in that pic are now dead. The others featured are the living dead.


----------



## audiotech (Mar 17, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> Am I seeing things or is that Ricky Tomlinson!



You are definitely seeing things.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 17, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> Am I seeing things or is that Ricky Tomlinson!



l to r: Pat Butcher, Joe Royle, Chip the chipmunk and Greg Dyke.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 17, 2010)

Larry O'Hara said:


> Well, it isn't as such a Celtic cross, more a sun-wheel.  And not exclusively BM (who still exist BTW: _Broadsword_ is essential reading for those aspiring to joined up writing).  The political soldier NF used the sunwheel a fair bit...


Back in the 70s, just about every bill the BM stuck up seemed to have it either in the top right or bottom right corner.
I spent 2 whole "graphic art" lessons at school in '76 cutting a stencil out of perspex that carried the simple analysis "WANKERS!" in inch-high letters so that I could spray my opinion across their and the NF's posters and bills. My slightly mad art teacher approved. He suggested I go for "CUNTS!" instead, and take photos of the results as part of a course project, but as it was part of the O level coursework, I thought "CUNTS!" might be a bit strong. I'll have to see if the negatives are still usable next time I visit my parents  

Ah, the innocence of the early teen!


----------



## audiotech (Mar 22, 2010)

A former leader of the British National Party (BNP) in Stoke-on-Trent has criticised his old party as he prepares to fight it in the general election.

Mr Walker told the BBC's Politics Show in the West Midlands: 



> There's a vein of Holocaust denying within the BNP that I cannot identify myself with. They've still got senior members of the BNP who will be candidates in the general election that have Nazi, Nazi-esque sympathies.



Bears in woods, pope etc.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/staffordshire/8579023.stm?


----------



## The Black Hand (Mar 22, 2010)

MC5 said:


> A former leader of the British National Party (BNP) in Stoke-on-Trent has criticised his old party as he prepares to fight it in the general election.
> 
> Mr Walker told the BBC's Politics Show in the West Midlands:
> 
> ...



Cue the ultra left - 'calling the BNP Nazis doesn't work' etc ad infanitum.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 22, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> Cue the ultra left - 'calling the BNP Nazis doesn't work' etc ad infanitum.



Does it? Or is actually organising locally addressing the political needs of the working class communities an alternative worth thinking about.


----------



## treelover (Mar 22, 2010)

Tyndall and Culhane look a bit 'pasty faced'


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 22, 2010)

Probably had acne as kids


----------



## audiotech (Mar 22, 2010)

treelover said:


> Tyndall and Culhane look a bit 'pasty faced'



Tyndall looks red in the face to me. The speaker was probably referring to Jews at the time and boy did Tyndall hate Jews.


----------



## audiotech (Mar 22, 2010)

The39thStep said:


> Probably had acne as kids



The master race don't do acne.


----------



## The Black Hand (Mar 23, 2010)

The39thStep said:


> Does it? Or is actually organising locally addressing the political needs of the working class communities an alternative worth thinking about.


 
You mean in that non effective nationally, impotent and completely marginal manner in a handful of areas?

U R soooo worthy, not.


----------



## audiotech (Mar 23, 2010)

MC5 said:


> A former leader of the British National Party (BNP) in Stoke-on-Trent has criticised his old party as he prepares to fight it in the general election.
> 
> Mr Walker told the BBC's Politics Show in the West Midlands:
> 
> ...



Video interview with the BBC.

Besides the Holocaust denying and Nazi sympathies you would expect, there's these:



> They're good at stirring up emotions, but they really have no answers.



Cites Griffin as the main reason for him leaving the party.



> He's using the party as some kind of vehicle to make himself rich and famous


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 23, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> You mean in that non effective nationally, impotent and completely marginal manner in a handful of areas?
> 
> U R soooo worthy, not.



So you don't think building an autonomous  local political alternative  to the BNP is the best way to beat them?


----------



## The Black Hand (Mar 23, 2010)

The39thStep said:


> So you don't think building an autonomous  local political alternative  to the BNP is the best way to beat them?



It's one way to try, however, it is not the only way.


----------



## The Black Hand (Mar 26, 2010)

Here is the content of a post I have lifted from;
http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2010/03/448107.html?c=on#c245345

I don't agree with it all, and i do not see why you should have to. BUt there is an interesting comment on here I have put in bold.

"extreme workerist groups like Class War and AFA veterans from Red Action and the IWCA. You've got to admire people who've got the bottle to physically take-on Fascists, but, in terms of political judgement, the Tories won in the 1980s because they judged the mood of the same workers these hacks claim to represent far better than the hard left did themselves. That's not to say that class issues aren't relevant to tackling the BNP, but facts of history speak for themselves. The only thing Class War achieved in the long-term was to take the popular and inclusive anarchist movement of the 1980s and shrink it back down to yet another tiny left-wing cult, with a couple of hundred fanatical, holier-than-thou, violent and sometimes inarticulate and stupid supporters, and since then IWCA lost all its councillors, has a tiny membership, and (for all its thoughtful and well-informed analyses) poses zero threat to the BNP. 

In establishing the BNP as a "radical" (sic) "alternative" (sic) in at least some white working-class communities, the BNP have achieved inroads in exactly the territory that hard-left and anarchist class warriors like to think is their own, and my God some class warriors are fucking jealous! *They're also bitter that resurgent Anti-Fascism fails to pay due deference to their past achievements, slagging-off people who have the common-sense to use media tools the EDL and BNP have turned to their advantage as "student wankers" and "keyboard warriors", in preference to realising that new generations of young media-savvy activists may well be Anti-Fascism's greatest asset *

*For those who think they and their friends are the "genuine" Anti-Fascists, Anti-Fascism is the property of NO-ONE. If you're a class warrior who wants to use resurgent Anti-Fascism to re-establish your own failed CULT preferably please don't, or at least have the honesty to openly declare which group or ideology you're trying to promote, and please don't let your bitterness and anger wreck Anti-Fascism like you wrecked your own movements*."


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 26, 2010)

what is 'resurgent' anti fascism? 

The IWCA hasn't lost all its cllrs btw


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Mar 26, 2010)

I like the idea that Thatcher won because she judged the mood; I'm glad she didn't rely on bribery, intimidation, jingoism and thuggery to secure a large enough minority of electoral support for our political system to give her huge power. When I say I like the idea of course what I mean is it is at best a quarter baked.

Louis MacNeice


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 26, 2010)

The39thStep said:


> what is 'resurgent' anti fascism?



Fuck knows. As far as I'm concerned it's never ebbed enough to require resurgence.


----------



## The Black Hand (Mar 29, 2010)

Interesting new book;

jain king says:
Anyone else looking forward to this book coming out? 
Here's what it's about: During his investigations into the British National Party (BNP), academic researcher Andi Ali has come face-to-face with the brutal reality of racism in the UK. Threatened as a *'Dead Paki Walking' *Ali has been beaten, stabbed and even abducted, and is included on the Neo-Nazi Redwatch hit-list. Ali s academic research in to the BNP has made him powerful enemies who have warned him to stop his activities. When he refused he was viciously assaulted outside Downing Street and left for dead. In Dead Paki Walking, Ali explains how his investigations started and of the means members of the far-right have taken to smear his name in order to stop his activities. As an autobiography, Dead Paki Walking is written in the first person and reads like a dark and sinister political thriller. The frightening fact is that the BNP are attracting an increasing number of supporters. If nothing else, Andi's book epitomizes the maxim 'know thine enemy'. This disturbing autobiography is a tale of one man's battle against racial intolerance, which Ali has fought everyday to uphold the liberal values in which he believes. 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Dead-Paki-W...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1269875039&sr=8-1


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 29, 2010)

Oh come on Andi Ali? Really?


----------



## audiotech (Mar 29, 2010)

Appears to have an inflated ego, with little politics, but I'd still have a read of Ali's book if I spotted it on the local library shelf. I believe you would have a butchers too butchers?


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 29, 2010)

One of the better books about at the moment is The New Extremism in 21st Century Britain by Goodwin and Eatwell.


----------



## The Black Hand (Mar 31, 2010)

Just read this, so I am posting it without prejeudice

BNP voters have lowest IQ      
THE brightest children go on to vote Liberal Democrat or Green, according to a survey.

The study by Edinburgh University researchers has found that childhood intelligence is linked to voting preferences and political involvement in adulthood.

The study - which looked at voting patterns in the 2001 general election - found that those with higher IQ ratings were more likely to vote Green in an election.

The survey - including cognitive tests at ages five and ten - was followed up with a study of voting habits at 34.

Those who voted Green had an average IQ of 108.3, with Lib-Dem voters just behind at 108.2.

Conservative and Labour voters were further behind - with scores of 103.7 and 103.0 respectively, while voters for Welsh nationalist Plaid Cymru scored an average of 102.5. Scottish National Party voters had an average IQ of 102.2.
Non-voters were found to have an average IQ of 99.7.

The research showed that British National Party voters had the lowest average intelligence - scoring just 98.4.

 Source: The Scotsman 11/08

http://www.wolvestuc.org.uk/index.p...ave-lowest-iq&catid=28:anti-fascism&Itemid=31


----------



## trevhagl (Mar 31, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> Interesting new book;
> 
> jain king says:
> Anyone else looking forward to this book coming out?
> ...



sounds interesting, lets hope its readable type size for us old cunts


----------



## audiotech (Mar 31, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> Just read this, so I am posting it without prejeudice
> 
> BNP voters have lowest IQ



What about those who actually join the BNP? There's one, a barrister no less, who has actually risked his whole, very well paid career, by standing as a candidate for the BNP. Now he must be really thick.

More here.


----------



## The39thStep (Apr 1, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> Just read this, so I am posting it without prejeudice
> 
> BNP voters have lowest IQ
> THE brightest children go on to vote Liberal Democrat or Green, according to a survey.
> ...



This is based on the 1970 British Cohort Study and actually concluded that 'childhood general intelligence is associated with a person’s political allegiance as much as social class '

There were only 33 BNP candidates and they only attracted 47,000 votes in 2001.

More recent studies show that the overall educational attainment profile of those who vote BNP pretty much mirrors Labour's.


----------



## treelover (Apr 1, 2010)

> BNP voters have lowest IQ
> THE brightest children go on to vote Liberal Democrat or Green, according to a survey





So what, is this the Mensa society,


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Apr 1, 2010)

treelover said:


> So what, is this the Mensa society,



It's a new division between deserving and undeserving; drawn up by the qualified rather than the rich.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## invisibleplanet (Apr 1, 2010)

We have to be careful with these narrow hypotheses. An appeal to nationalism, patriotism, nostalgic greatness and group pride through political unity (via party allegience) can affect people of all economic, educational and social classes. Once someone is convinced of the correctness of their choice to join a political clan, getting them to realise their decision was based on false premise is not an easy task.


----------



## JimPage (Apr 1, 2010)

As to general election, so far up to 202 named candidates. Confirmed totals in a few areas, Scotland 13, E Mid 34, London 32, Eastern 40. Possible full slate in NE England


----------



## The Black Hand (Apr 2, 2010)

The39thStep said:


> More recent studies show that the overall educational attainment profile of those who vote BNP pretty much mirrors Labour's.



Links? Ta.


----------



## The39thStep (Apr 2, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> Links? Ta.



Its in one of Dr Mathew Goodwins papers, University of Manchester


----------



## audiotech (Apr 2, 2010)

A councillor has vowed to stand independently at the next election after walking away from the British National Party for being "a bunch of racists".

Took his time to sus that one out!

Source.


----------



## JimPage (Apr 2, 2010)

MC5 said:


> A councillor has vowed to stand independently at the next election after walking away from the British National Party for being "a bunch of racists".
> 
> Took his time to sus that one out!
> 
> Source.



Interestingly as well, exposes a local deal between BNP and Third Way in Havering not to stand agaisnt each other


----------



## The Black Hand (Apr 2, 2010)

The39thStep said:


> Its in one of Dr Mathew Goodwins papers, University of Manchester



Ta.


----------



## The Black Hand (Apr 6, 2010)

"Time for an Anti-Fascist Defence League!!"

http://suacs.wordpress.com/2010/03/20/time-for-an-anti-fascist-defence-league/


----------



## audiotech (Apr 6, 2010)

All enquiries to Workers Power, Surrey branch.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 6, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> "Time for an Anti-Fascist Defence League!!"
> 
> http://suacs.wordpress.com/2010/03/20/time-for-an-anti-fascist-defence-league/



bye


----------



## The Black Hand (Apr 6, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> bye



Broad scouse - 'Calm down calm down'... 

It's only relevant anti fascist arguments posted without prejudice.


----------



## audiotech (Apr 7, 2010)

BBC programme in three parts. Looking at their paymaster there, some of their operations and the impact they have had on working class loyalist areas, which appears to be not very much, according to the UVF and UDA sources.


----------



## JimPage (Apr 9, 2010)

First batch of council ward nominations in for BNP. Not as many full slates as before 

AMBER VALLEY 6
BARROW 1
BASILDON 14
BASINGSTOKE 1
BIRMINGHAM 30
BURY 10
BROXBOURNE 10
CAMDEN 3
CANNOCK 2
COLCHESTER 1
CROYDON 9
DERBY 5
GREENWICH 13
HULL 2
IPSWICH 1
KNOWSLEY 1
LEEDS 31
LINCOLN 4
MERTON 6
NUNEATON 12
PENDLE 9
PLYMOUTH 1
RICHMOND UPON THAMES 2
ROCHFORD 4
SOLIHULL 16
WAKEFIELD 19
WELWYN HATFIELD 1


----------



## JimPage (Apr 9, 2010)

Full list of General Eelction nominations- East of England

Basildon & Billericay Irene Bateman
Bedford William Dewick
Brentwood & Ongar Paul Morris
Broadland Edith Crowther
Broxbourne Steve McCole
Castle Point Phil Howard
Chelmsford Michael Bateman
Clacton James Taylor
Colchester Sid Cheney
Epping Forest Pat Richardson
Great Yarmouth Bosco Tann
Harlow Edward Butler
Harwich & North Essex Steve Robey
Hemel Hempstead Janet Price
Hertford & Stortford Roy Harris
Hertsmere Daniel Seabrook
Ipswich Dennis Boater
Luton North Shelley Rose
Luton South Tony Blakey
Maldon Len Blaine
Mid Norfolk Christine Kelly
North East Bedfordshire Ian Seeby
North East Cambridgeshire Susan Clapp
North West Norfolk David Fleming
Norwich North Thomas Richardson
Norwich South Len Heather
Peterborough Dave Strickson
Rayleigh & Wickford Tony Evenett
Rochford & Southend East Geoffrey Strobridge
Saffron Waldon Chrissie Mitchell
South Basildon & East Thurrock Christopher Roberts
South Norfolk Helen Mitchell
South West Bedfordshire Mark Tolman
South West Hertfordshire Deirdre Gates
South West Norfolk Dennis Pearce
Southend West Tony Gladwin
Stevenage Robin Johnstone
Thurrock Emma Colgate
Watford Dr Andrew Emerson
West Suffolk Ramon Johns


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 9, 2010)

Any in the reading / surrounding area jim?


----------



## articul8 (Apr 9, 2010)

(This has probably been discussed on here before but I can't find where) - who are the England First party?  Are they a variant on the English Democrats or further to the right (neo-nazi links?)
They have a candidate in the local elections in Preston.


----------



## Sgt Howie (Apr 9, 2010)

articul8 said:


> (This has probably been discussed on here before but I can't find where) - who are the England First party?  Are they a variant on the English Democrats or further to the right (neo-nazi links?)
> They have a candidate in the local elections in Preston.



They're the hobby-horse of Mark Cotterill, ex-Tory and veteran of various far-right sects with links to American fash. Handul of councillors in the Blackburn area.


----------



## Fedayn (Apr 9, 2010)

articul8 said:


> (This has probably been discussed on here before but I can't find where) - who are the England First party?  Are they a variant on the English Democrats or further to the right (neo-nazi links?)
> They have a candidate in the local elections in Preston.



BNP spin off, Mark Cottrell-former head of the American friends of BNP-was a founder member amongst other WNP members.


----------



## articul8 (Apr 9, 2010)

OK, he's the candidate here.  It's a working class ward he's fighting.  Think he's stood before in a different ward, without winning.


----------



## Fedayn (Apr 9, 2010)

Sgt Howie said:


> They're the hobby-horse of Mark Cotterill, ex-Tory and veteran of various far-right sects with links to American fash. *Handul of councillors in the Blackburn area.*



Nah, they've left.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 9, 2010)

One result from last night from the excellently named: 

TENDRING GOLF GREEN 
Labour 409
Conservative 404
Tendring First 313
BNP 139
Independent 120
Liberal Democrat 63

That was a first time out there - swing  4.3% Lab to tory if anyone's looking for GE indications. If mirrored across the country (unlikely) that would not be enough to give the tories a majority - in fact i think labour would still be the largest party.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 9, 2010)

> Labour 409
> Conservative 404


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Apr 9, 2010)

JimPage said:


> First batch of council ward nominations in for BNP. Not as many full slates as before
> 
> AMBER VALLEY 6
> BARROW 1
> ...



7 or 8 in Manchester, 3 is the max prior to this IIRC.


----------



## audiotech (Apr 9, 2010)

frogwoman said:


>



It's a funny old world.


----------



## JimPage (Apr 10, 2010)

So far, Searchlight record 595 local candidates- and expect "7-800" in total - some councils releases the lists on Monday

The comparison figure for 2006 is 363 candidates. I use this as a comparison as elections were held over the exact same area then , i.e local elections in London etc.   

And for every good news story only 1 canddiate in Oldham, theres two bad ones (Wigan 19 canddiates for example)


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Apr 10, 2010)

JimPage said:


> And for every good news story only 1 canddiate in Oldham, theres two bad ones (Wigan 19 canddiates for example)



There are at least Peoples Alliance candidates in and around Wigan that may provide an alternative to fascists for anti-establishment votes.


----------



## JimPage (Apr 10, 2010)

Some London Candidates known so far
Camden 3, Tower Hamlets 3, Sutton 4, Merton 6, Hounslow 6, Ealing 2, Brent 1, Greenwich 13, Enfield 4, Croydon 9

More to follow, interested to see if they are able to fight enough canddiates to fight all of the winnable wards in Barking & Dagenham


----------



## JimPage (Apr 10, 2010)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> There are at least Peoples Alliance candidates in and around Wigan that may provide an alternative to fascists for anti-establishment votes.



15 PA canddiates. 1 England First as well.

BNp fighting Makerfield , Wigan & Leigh at General Election

Total parliamentary seats fought now up to 334 I understand


----------



## JimPage (Apr 10, 2010)

BNP London Parliamentary Seats, a lot more than in 2005, and many new areas they are choosing to fight

Barking — Nick Griffin;
Beckenham — Roger Tonks;
Bermondsey & Old Southwark — Stephen Tyler;
Bexleyheath & Crayford — Stephen James; 
Brentford & Isleworth — Paul Winnett;
Bromley & Chislehurst — Rowena Savage; 
Carshalton & Wallington — Charlotte Lewis; 
Chelsea & Fulham — Brian MacDonald; 
Chingford & Woodford Green — Julian Leppert; 
Croydon Central — Cliff Le May; 
Dagenham & Rainham — Michael Barnbrook; 
Ealing North — David Furness;
Eltham — Roberta Woods; 
Enfield North — Tony Avery;
Erith & Thamesmead — Kevin Saunders; 
Feltham & Heston — John Donnelly; 
Greenwich & Woolwich — Lawrence Rustem;
Hammersmith — Lawrence Searle;
Hampstead & Kilburn — Victoria Moore;
Hayes & Harlington — Chris Forster; 
Holborn & St Pancras — Robert Carlyle; 
Ilford North — Danny Warville; 
Leyton & Wanstead — Jim Clift;
Mitcham & Morden — Tony Martin; 
Old Bexley & Sidcup — John Brooks; 
Orpington — Tess Culnane;
Putney — Peter Darby;
Romford — Robert Bailey; 
Sutton & Cheam — John Clarke;
Twickenham — Chris Hurst; 
Uxbridge & South Ruslip — Barry Thompson;
Westminster North — Stephen Curry.


----------



## DarthSydodyas (Apr 10, 2010)

We received a *booklet* through the door outlying what Nick Griffin (our local candidate) and his party represents (jobs, welfare, pensioners, dignity, etc, etc).    Its tragic how well these guys are organised for this election when compared to everybody else.   The local conservative dropped through a ass-wipe quality leaflet.   Not heard anything from Hodge.   The rest are dead in the water.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 10, 2010)

JimPage said:


> Some London Candidates known so far
> Camden 3, Tower Hamlets 3, Sutton 4, Merton 6, Hounslow 6, *Ealing 2*, Brent 1, Greenwich 13, Enfield 4, *Croydon 9*


links or stfu


----------



## JimPage (Apr 10, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


> links or stfu



Cadging from local activist reports on Vote 2007 forum website


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 10, 2010)

JimPage said:


> Cadging from local activist reports on Vote 2007 forum website


sadly nothing appears on the croydon or the ealing council websites.


----------



## JimPage (Apr 10, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


> sadly nothing appears on the croydon or the ealing council websites.



Ealing is one each in the 2 Northolt Wards
Croydon is 2 each in New Addington and Fieldway wards and single candidates in another 5 wards


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 10, 2010)

JimPage said:


> Ealing is one each in the 2 Northolt Wards
> Croydon is 2 each in New Addington and Fieldway wards and single candidates in another 5 wards


yes. and i suppose you can provide a link to the statement of candidates to support this claim.


----------



## nightowl (Apr 10, 2010)

Certainly chucking cash at barking and dagenham. Big billboards, glossy booklets and today their Nazi poster wagon driving around playing patriotic music


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 10, 2010)

nightowl said:


> today their Nazi poster wagon driving around playing patriotic music


boys of the old brigade


----------



## JimPage (Apr 10, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


> yes. and i suppose you can provide a link to the statement of candidates to support this claim.



Nope, not on council websites yet, but no reason to dount the specifics here= just local information form people reporting factually where they are standing and are not


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 13, 2010)

JimPage said:


> Some London Candidates known so far
> Camden 3, Tower Hamlets 3, Sutton 4, Merton 6, Hounslow 6, Ealing 2, Brent 1, Greenwich 13, Enfield 4, Croydon 9
> 
> More to follow, interested to see if they are able to fight enough canddiates to fight all of the winnable wards in Barking & Dagenham



Only (!) managed to make 34 candidates, leaving 17 uncontested. I'm not that up on the details of the make-up of the area but i'm told they'd have no chance in any Abbey, Gascoigne or Thames anyway which might soften the blow - if it's a blow at all, and i'm not sure it is, not beyond PR purposes anyway.

edit: and only 7 UKIP...


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 13, 2010)

Surprisingly sensible piece (apart from the title) in the new Searchlight, briefly and non-hysterically outlining why the BNP are in a far better position today than the NF ever were even at the supposed height of their threat and why the wider socio-economic climate is helping further their upward dynamic. Of course, there's an implied criticism of the competitions run around like it's 1979 approach and a tentave recognition of the need to (yep) 'fill the vacuum'.


----------



## The39thStep (Apr 13, 2010)

Should we have a poll on how many votes they will get?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 13, 2010)

We should, maybe give it a week or so though - see what locals polls saying and what searchlight and the mirror pull out of the hat.


----------



## The39thStep (Apr 13, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> We should, maybe give it a week or so though - see what locals polls saying and what searchlight and the mirror pull out of the hat.



I am going 400,000


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 13, 2010)

The39thStep said:


> I am going 400,000



This is just GE vote?


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Apr 13, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Surprisingly sensible piece (apart from the title) in the new Searchlight, briefly and non-hysterically outlining why the BNP are in a far better position today than the NF ever were even at the supposed height of their threat and why the wider socio-economic climate is helping further their upward dynamic. Of course, there's an implied criticism of the competitions run around like it's 1979 approach and a tentave recognition of the need to (yep) 'fill the vacuum'.



Blimey that photo of Griffin with the "no to cruise" banner at the head of the march and a CND sign...you couldn't make it up. Crafty buggers.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 13, 2010)

Anti-Americanism has been part of the new-right since the late 70s. It's a genuine belief.


----------



## JimPage (Apr 13, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Only (!) managed to make 34 candidates, leaving 17 uncontested. I'm not that up on the details of the make-up of the area but i'm told they'd have no chance in any Abbey, Gascoigne or Thames anyway which might soften the blow - if it's a blow at all, and i'm not sure it is, not beyond PR purposes anyway.
> 
> edit: and only 7 UKIP...



Agreed, the 34 are in batches of 3 in winnable wards, and single candidates in those which they have no hope in, but find it worth standing in anyway

And because their winnable wards are all covered, they have done enough here by way of candidate numbers in the right wards. They would have liked more, no doubt, but they have what they have


----------



## JimPage (Apr 13, 2010)

Looks like in excess of 700 BNP canddiates in total, up from 363 the last time there areas 

More NF than before are  standing, 10 EFP and even the Nutzi BPP are standing one as well 

here is current list of BNP

AMBER VALLEY 6
BARKING AND DAGENHAM 34
BARNET 1
BARNSLEY 21
BARROW 1
BASILDON 14
BASINGSTOKE 1
BASSETLAW 1
BEXLEY 26
BIRMINGHAM 30
BLACKBURN AND DARWEN 3
BOLTON 4
BURNLEY 10
BURY 10
BRADFORD 10
BRENT 1
BRISTOL 12
BROMLEY 3
BROXBOURNE 10
CALDERDALE 6
CAMDEN 3
CANNOCK 2
COLCHESTER 1
CRAWLEY 6
CROYDON 9
DERBY 5
DONCASTER 4
DUDLEY 4
EALING 2
ENFIELD 4
EPPING FOREST 4
GATESHEAD 16
GREENWICH 14
HARROGATE 3
HARTLEPOOL 5
HASTINGS 4
HAVERING 8
HILLINGDON 4
HOUNSLOW 6
HULL 2
IPSWICH 1
ISLINGTON 1
KIRKLEES 21
KNOWSLEY 1
LEEDS 31
LINCOLN 4
MANCHESTER 8
MERTON 6
MILTON KEYNES 1
N.E.LINCS 1
NORTH TYNESIDE 4
NEWCASTLE 23
NUNEATON 12
OLDHAM 1
PENDLE 9
PLYMOUTH 1
REDBRIDGE 7
REDDITCH 1
RICHMOND UPON THAMES 2
ROCHDALE 4
ROCHFORD 4
ROTHERHAM 11
SALFORD 9
SANDWELL 24
SEFTON 9
SHEFFIELD 13
SOLIHULL 16
SOUTH TYNESIDE 18
SOUTHEND ON SEA 17
SOUTHWARK 1
ST HELENS 8
STOCKPORT 9
STOKE ON TRENT 6
SUTTON 4
SWINDON 6
TAMESIDE 16
THURROCK 16
TOWER HAMLETS 3
WAKEFIELD 19
WALSALL 2
WANDSWORTH 1
WARRINGTON 1
WELWYN HATFIELD 1
WIGAN 19
WIRRAL 4
WOLVERHAMPTON 4


----------



## Corax (Apr 13, 2010)

If recent history is anything to go by, even if they notch up stacks of representatives, half of them will ditch the party.  At which point the BNP will say that they were mentally unstable and they didn't want them anyway.

[/flippant]


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 13, 2010)

This is a serious thread


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 13, 2010)

JimPage said:


> Looks like in excess of 700 BNP canddiates in total, up from 363 the last time there areas
> 
> More NF than before are  standing, 10 EFP and even the Nutzi BPP are standing one as well
> 
> ...


you seem to have missed the national liberal party


----------



## mk12 (Apr 13, 2010)

JimPage said:


> Looks like in excess of 700 BNP canddiates in total, up from 363 the last time there areas
> 
> More NF than before are  standing, 10 EFP and even the Nutzi BPP are standing one as well
> 
> ...



For local councils?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 13, 2010)

mk12 said:


> For local councils?



no, for fucking ice lollies


----------



## Corax (Apr 13, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> This is a serious thread


Sorry.  



Pickman's model said:


> no, for fucking ice lollies



Didn't you hear butchers?  FFS.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 13, 2010)

Corax said:


> Didn't you hear butchers?  FFS.


when someone asks a silly question, like mk12 a minute ago, you need to slap them down so they don't do it again.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 13, 2010)

Corax said:


> Sorry.
> 
> 
> 
> Didn't you hear butchers?  FFS.



Contribute something, first.


----------



## Corax (Apr 13, 2010)

They _will_ implode though, whatever happens.  Apart from older events - the Walkers quitting, Lee Barnes' hilarious attempts to present himself as legally qualified, and OMG Collett's arrest was the icing on the cake.  They're a farce.  I was much more worried about them a year ago.  Now I'm finding it hard to take them seriously.  Am I being naive?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 13, 2010)

Corax said:


> They _will_ implode though, whatever happens.  Apart from older events - the Walkers quitting, Lee Barnes' hilarious attempts to present himself as legally qualified, and OMG Collett's arrest was the icing on the cake.  They're a farce.  I was much more worried about them a year ago.  Now I'm finding it hard to take them seriously.  Am I being naive?


yes


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 13, 2010)

Corax said:


> They _will_ implode though, whatever happens.  Apart from older events - the Walkers quitting, Lee Barnes' hilarious attempts to present himself as legally qualified, and OMG Collett's arrest was the icing on the cake.  They're a farce.  I was much more worried about them a year ago.  Now I'm finding it hard to take them seriously.  Am I being naive?



They 'will implode' has been the mantra for the last 10 years. They haven't. They're here and more a danger than ever. Stop this fantasy.

Quick googles will not help.


----------



## Corax (Apr 13, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> They 'will implode' has been the mantra for the last 10 years. They haven't. They're here and more a danger than ever. Stop this fantasy.
> 
> Quick googles will not help.



Not a quick google butchers, thanks.  I watch the BNP's 'progress' with interest.  The party are laughable.  Their national conference attracted about 300 people, who ended up in a drunken brawl.  The 'party' are a fucking joke.

What I _will_ concede is that this doesn't necessarily mean that they won't get votes from the disenfranchised and/or ignorant.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 13, 2010)

Corax said:


> Not a quick google butchers, thanks.  I watch the BNP's 'progress' with interest.  The party are laughable.  Their national conference attracted about 300 people, who ended up in a drunken brawl.  The 'party' are a fucking joke.
> 
> What I _will_ concede is that this doesn't necessarily mean that they won't get votes from the disenfranchised and/or ignorant.



That party can get a million votes whilst being this rabble. 

You spout out searchlight google irrelevance. Watch what you want. This is what's happening. Lazy cliches make no difference.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 13, 2010)

They'll _really really_ implode this time!

Oh no, _they didn't. _

Back down the mountain.


----------



## DarthSydodyas (Apr 13, 2010)

Corax said:


> Not a quick google butchers, thanks.  I watch the BNP's 'progress' with interest.  The party are laughable.  Their national conference attracted about 300 people, who ended up in a drunken brawl.  The 'party' are a fucking joke.
> 
> What I _will_ concede is that this doesn't necessarily mean that they won't get votes from the disenfranchised and/or ignorant.




Yet their _show of support_ crowd gather in greater numbers than anti-facist/bnp/racimalism groups.


----------



## Corax (Apr 13, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> That party can get a million votes whilst being this rabble.
> 
> You spout out searchlight google irrelevance. Watch what you want. This is what's happening. Lazy cliches make no difference.



Whatever.  The conference numbers came from a university anti-fash group iirc, certainly not searchlight.  Can't remember which one, and funnily enough it's not in my browser history.  Like I've said, this ain't a quick google job even if I haven't joined in your particular circle-jerk thread.  You stick with your assumptions if it makes you feel better, I really don't give a fuck.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 13, 2010)

Off you go then.

All welcome, just don't be a dick.


----------



## Corax (Apr 13, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Off you go then.
> 
> All welcome, just don't be a dick.



Questioning whether there's any real threat you mean?

You think there is.
I disagree.

Outrageous.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 13, 2010)

On the basis of 'they'll implode'? They didn't implode any of the other times that it was sure that they would. But go on, i'd like to see what's lead you to this conclusion then


----------



## FreddyB (Apr 13, 2010)

Corax said:


> They _will_ implode though, whatever happens.  Apart from older events - the Walkers quitting, Lee Barnes' hilarious attempts to present himself as legally qualified, and OMG Collett's arrest was the icing on the cake.  They're a farce.  I was much more worried about them a year ago.  Now I'm finding it hard to take them seriously.  Am I being naive?



Despite all these problems and more they're still here, it's interesting how it affects them getting activists out and it'll be interesting to see what happens after the election when they've got nothing but each other to get their teeth into (asuming they don't take a seat or even a significant number of council seats). It won't be the end of them. What could be the end is the financial irregularites that apprently exist but that might all be sour grapes from former members.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 13, 2010)

FreddyB said:


> Despite all these problems and more they're still here, it's interesting how it affects them getting activists out and it'll be interesting to see what happens after the election when they've got nothing but each other to get their teeth into (asuming they don't take a seat or even a significant number of council seats). It won't be the end of them. What could be the end is the financial irregularites that apprently exist but that might all be sour grapes from former members.



They'll get stuck into what they've been stuck in for the last decade. They're not a party at constant war with itself - they've hovered up on the far right, the internal debates come about how to use this - not the old school should we be nazis or racists debates.


----------



## Corax (Apr 13, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> On the basis of 'they'll implode'? They didn't implode any of the other times that it was sure that they would. But go on, i'd like to see what's lead you to this conclusion then


They haven't exactly made huge strides towards westminster though have they?  There was a big fear that they would - and it hasn't materialised.  In fact, the more exposure they've got, the more they've made themselves the object of ridicule.  While the organisation of the party remains this inept, I'd expect that pattern to repeat itself.



FreddyB said:


> Despite all these problems and more they're still here, it's interesting how it affects them getting activists out and it'll be interesting to see what happens after the election when they've got nothing but each other to get their teeth into (asuming they don't take a seat or even a significant number of council seats). It won't be the end of them. What could be the end is the financial irregularites that apprently exist but that might all be sour grapes from former members.


In terms of the long term threat, I agree that they're worth maintaining an eye on.  But the current set up is less than united, politically or personally.  Even if they do completely implode (and the financial irregularities may be the catalyst as you say), then no doubt a clone of the BNP will rise to take their place.  There will _always_ be a RW extremist element to be countered, and the support gained by the BNP, EDL, UKIP and the swing towards the tories may be symptomatic of a disconcerting shift to the right overall.  At this present moment though, the BNP themselves are what is termed in medicine as a 'self-limiting condition'.  The more exposure they get, the more their inadequacies are exposed.  I just don't see any clear and present danger.

I really don't mean to preach complacency though.  But I'd rather without the over-dramatisation either.  The RW appears to get the majority of its publicity from LW reaction.  I'm not 'no-platform' to any extent - that time has passed if it was ever there - but there's still a danger that LW 'backlash' can create interest where previously was only apathy.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 13, 2010)

Corax said:


> They haven't exactly made huge strides towards westminster though have they?  There was a big fear that they would - and it hasn't materialised.  In fact, the more exposure they've got, the more they've made themselves the object of ridicule.  While the organisation of the party remains this inept, I'd expect that pattern to repeat itself.



No there wasn't, and yes they have. 

Are you mad? Have you actually been following the BNP at all?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 13, 2010)

Corax said:


> In terms of the long term threat, I agree that they're worth maintaining an eye on.  But the current set up is less than united, politically or personally.  Even if they do completely implode (and the financial irregularities may be the catalyst as you say), then no doubt a clone of the BNP will rise to take their place.  There will _always_ be a RW extremist element to be countered, and the support gained by the BNP, EDL, UKIP and the swing towards the tories may be symptomatic of a disconcerting shift to the right overall.  At this present moment though, the BNP themselves are what is termed in medicine as a 'self-limiting condition'.  The more exposure they get, the more their inadequacies are exposed.  I just don't see any clear and present danger.
> 
> I really don't mean to preach complacency though.  But I'd rather without the over-dramatisation either.  The RW appears to get the majority of its publicity from LW reaction.  I'm not 'no-platform' to any extent - that time has passed if it was ever there - but there's still a danger that LW 'backlash' can create interest where previously was only apathy.




what the fuck?


----------



## Corax (Apr 13, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> what the fuck?



Good answer.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 13, 2010)

No seriously, i have no idea what you think you said. 

It's drivel.


----------



## Corax (Apr 13, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> No seriously, i have no idea what you think you said.
> 
> It's drivel.



Really?  I thought you were just being pithy.  I've read it back several times since your reply and it still makes sense.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 13, 2010)

Pithy? I didn't go to public school.

It doesn't. It's distance from real life is genuine.


----------



## marshall (Apr 13, 2010)

dunno where everyone’s based, but out here in the boonies the level of casual/everyday racism is worse than I can remember for years, no way will the bnp implode; if anything I actually wonder where it’s going to end.


----------



## JHE (Apr 13, 2010)

marshall said:


> ...out here in the boonies...



Eh?


----------



## marshall (Apr 13, 2010)

JHE said:


> Eh?






the sticks, mate, the sticks...


----------



## Corax (Apr 13, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Pithy? I didn't go to public school.


Yawn.



butchersapron said:


> It doesn't. It's distance from real life is genuine.


Or school at all, it seems.

Bored now.  C'ya.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 13, 2010)

Wow thanks for dropping in.


----------



## The39thStep (Apr 13, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> This is just GE vote?



sure is dude


----------



## JimPage (Apr 14, 2010)

http://www.hopenothate.org.uk/2010/general/

Searchlight's list of Gneral ELection candidates announced so far


----------



## Sgt Howie (Apr 14, 2010)

BNP webchat goes brilliantly:
http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/e...rson-bnp-1.694755?referrerPath=news/elections


----------



## Corax (Apr 14, 2010)

Amusing.



> The British National Party has expelled a UKIP mole standing for the BNP in Thurrock after discovering that his aunt was the UKIP candidate and that he had been sent into the party to discredit it, Thurrock organiser Emma Colgate has announced.
> 
> “Mark Onions appeared out of the blue a short while ago and became very active,” Ms Colgate said.
> 
> ...


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Apr 14, 2010)

Sgt Howie said:


> BNP webchat goes brilliantly:
> http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/e...rson-bnp-1.694755?referrerPath=news/elections



LOL


----------



## audiotech (Apr 14, 2010)

Griffin's gone missing from Barking too:

http://www.itv.com/london/wheres-nick-griffin66833/


----------



## Corax (Apr 14, 2010)

In Brussels, claiming.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 14, 2010)

Corax said:


> Their national conference attracted about 300 people, who ended up in a drunken brawl.


pls link to something about a 300 person brawl at the nat. conf. or stfu


----------



## Corax (Apr 14, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


> pls link to something about a 300 person brawl at the nat. conf. or stfu



For clarity, there was allegedly a drunken brawl between BNP national conference attendees.  I didn't mean to imply that it involved the entire 300ish people who attended.  I expect you knew that, tbh.

I'm not going to trawl the net to find the original source for you, but as I've said, it was a university anti-fash group who were in attendance outside and appeared to have sources on the hotel staff.

From recall, the wording about the brawl was something along the lines of it being an argument over which was worse, gays, asians or blacks, which got out of hand.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 14, 2010)

Drivel. Useless drivel.


----------



## Corax (Apr 14, 2010)

Kthxbai


----------



## JimPage (Apr 15, 2010)

Understand total of local election canddiates is 731 pklus a few for council by elections on same day

BBC Election Website is starting to be best place to find out abour BNP Election canddiates in areas where they have been slow in naming candidates like NE. Yorkshire and West MIdlands. Every seat in NE being fought 

Andrew Brons stadning in Keighley of particular note


----------



## sihhi (Apr 15, 2010)

JimPage said:


> Carshalton & Wallington — Charlotte Lewis;



I'm surprised they kept her considering the ho-ha last time around about her NF boyfriend and animal rights past.

The local papers are onto it again unsurprisingly

http://www.croydonguardian.co.uk/news/8099421.BNP_candidate_revels_in_Burqa_shame/


----------



## William of Walworth (Apr 15, 2010)

This thread has been too fast growing for me to keep up with more than bits of it, so apols if I've missed stuff .... but has there been any chat earlier up about the BNP (Adrian Darby I think) is doing in Stoke Central against that public school historian (Tristram Hunt) who was parachuted in for Labour?? 

No idea how accurate or not is this Graun article from last Thursday  ...


----------



## mk12 (Apr 15, 2010)

BNP are standing in my constituency for the first time, and the constituency next to me (Milton Keynes North and South). I don't think they have much of a presence locally, but I imagine they'll pick up a few votes.


----------



## FreddyB (Apr 15, 2010)

http://www.accountancyage.com/accountancyage/news/2261363/bnp-accounts-under

Electoral Comission investigaing the BNP's finances. Not sure what will come of it but if only half the stuff online is true Griffin could be in trouble


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 15, 2010)

Are they standing in the south east (slough etc?)


----------



## Corax (Apr 16, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> Are they standing in the south east (slough etc?)



List here:

http://www.hopenothate.org.uk/2010/general/


----------



## JimPage (Apr 17, 2010)

a list of the 333 seats declared so far- for size needs to be in 2 parts

Aberavon... Kevin Edwards
Aberdeen North...Roy Jones
Aberdeen South... Susan Ross...
Alyn and Deeside...John Walker
Amber Valley...Michael Clarke
Ashfield... Edward Holmes... 
Ashton Under Lyne... David Lomas
Banff Buchan...Richard Payne
Barking... Nick Griffin... 
Barnsley Central... Ian Sutton... 
Barnsley East... Colin Porter... 
Barrow & Furness... Mike Ashburner
Basildon & Billericay...Irene Bateman
Batley and Spen... David Exley
Beckingham...Roger Tonks
Bedford...William Dewick
Bermondsey & Old Southwark... Stephen Tyler
Berwick upon Tweed... Peter Mailer
Beverley & Holderness... Neil Whitelam
Bexhill & Battle...Neil Jackson
Bexleyheath & Crayford...Stephen James
Birmingham Edgbaston... Trevor Lloyd
Birmingham Erdington... Kevin McHugh
Birmingham Hodge Hill... Richard Lumby
Birmingham Northfield...Les Orton
Birmingham Selly Oak... Lynette Orton
Birmingham Yardley... Tanya Lumby
Bishop Auckland... Adam Walker...
Blackburn... Robin Evans
Blackley and Broughton...Derek Adams
Blackpool North...James Clayton
Blackpool South...Roy Goodwin
Blaenau Gwent...Anthony King
Blaydon... Keith McFarlane
Blyth Valley... Steve Fairburn
Bognor Regis...Andrew Moffat
Bolsover... Martin Radford
Bolton West... Shelia Spink
Bootle... Charles Stewart
Boston & Skegness...David Owens
Bosworth... John Ryde
Bracknell... Mark Burke...
Bradford East... Neville Poynton
Bradford South... Sharon Sutton
Bradford West... Jenny Sampson
Brentford & Isleworth...Paul Winnet
Brentwood and Ongar...Paul Morris
Bridgend... Brian Urch
Bridgwater & West Somerset...Donna Treanor
Brigg & Goole... Steve Ward
Bristol East...Brian Jenkins
Bristol South...Colin Chidsey
Broadland...Edith Crowther
Bromley & Chislehurst...Rowena Savage
Bromsgrove... Elizabeth Wainwright
Broxbourne...Steve McCole
Broxtowe... Michael Shore
Buckingham...Lynne Mozar
Burnley... Sharon Wilkinson...
Burton... Alan Hewitt
Bury North...John Maude
Bury South...Jean Purdy
Caerphilly...Laurence Reid
Calder Valley... John Gregory
Cannock Chase... Terence Majorowicz
Carlisle...Paul Stafford
Carshalton and Wallington...Charlotte Lewis
Castle Point...Phil Howard
Charnwood... Cathy Duffy... 
Chatham & Aylesford...Colin McCarthy-Stewart
Chelmsford...Mike Bateman
Chelsea & Fulham...Brian MacDonald
Chingford & Woodford Green...Julian Leppert
Chippenham... Michael Simpkins
Clacton...James Taylor
Clwyd South...Sarah Hynes
Colchester...Sidney Cheney
Colne Valley... Barry Fowler
Copeland... Clive Jefferson
Corby... Roy Davies... 
Coventry North East... Tom Gower
Coventry North West... Edward Sheppard
Crawley...Richard Trower
Crewe & Nantwich...Phil Williams
Croydon Central... Cliff Le May
Dagenham and Rainham... Mick Barnbrook
Darlington... Amanda Foster
Delyn... Jennifer Griffin
Derby North... Peter Cheeseman
Derbyshire South...Peter Jarvis
Dewsbury... Roger Roberts
Don Valley... Erwin Toseland
Doncaster Central... John Bettney
Doncaster North... Pamela Chambers
Dover...Dennis Whiting
Dundee West...Ian Murphy
Durham, City of...Ralph Musgrove
Dudley North... Ken Griffiths
Ealing North... Dave Furness
Easington...Cheryl Dunn
East Yorkshire... Gary Pudsey
Eastbourne...Colin Poulter
Elmet & Rothwell... Sam Clayton
Eltham...Roberta Woods
Enfield North...Tony Avery
Epping Forest...Pat Richardson
Erewash... Mark Bailey
Erith & Thamesmead...Kevin Saunders
Exeter...Robert Farmer
Feltham and Heston... John Donnelly
Filton and Bradley Stoke...David Scott
Folkstone & Hythe... Harry Williams
Gainsborough...Malcolm Porter
Gateshead... Kevin Scott
Gedling... Stephen Adcock
Gillingham & Rainham...Brian Ravenscroft
Glasgow Central...Ian Halt
Glasgow East...Joe T Finnie
Glasgow North East...Walter Hamilton
Glasgow North west...Scott Mclean
Glasgow North...Thomas Main
Glasgow South west...David Orr Jnr
Glasgow South...Mike Coyle
Gordon...Elise Jones
Gosport... Barry Bennett
Gower... Adrian Jones
Grantham & Stamford...Christopher Robinson
Great Grimsby... Stephen Fyfe
Great Yarmouth... Bosco Tann
Greenwich & Woolwich...Lawrence Rustem
Halifax... Tom Bates
Haltemprice & Howden... James Cornell
Halton...Andrew Taylor
Hammersmith...Lawrence Searle
Hampstead & Highgate...Victoria Moore
Harborough...Geoff Dickens
Harlow... Eddy Butler
Harrogate & Knaresborough... Steve Gill
Hartlepool... Ronnie Bage
Harwich & North Essex...Stephen Robey
Hastings & Rye...Nick Prince
Hayes & Harlington... Chris Forster
Hemel Hempstead... Janet Price
Hemsworth...Ian Kitchen
Henley... John Bews
Hereford...John Oliver
Hertfordshire South West...Deirdre Gates
Hertford & Stortford... Roy Harris
Hertsmere... Daniel Seabrook
Heywood & Middleton... Peter Greenwood...
Hexham... Quentin Hawkins
Holborn and St Pancras...Robert Carlyle
Horsham... Daniel McDonald
Houghton & Sunderland South... Karen Allen
Hyndburn... Andrew Eccles
Ilford North...Danny Warville
Ipswich...Dennis Boater
Isle of White...Geoff Clynch
Islwyn...John Voisey
Keighley...Andrew Brons
Kettering... Clive Skinner... 
Kingston Upon Hull North... John Mainprize
Kingston Upon Hull West & Hessle... Edward Scott
Knowsley... Steven Greenhalgh
Lancaster & Fleetwood...Debra Kent
Leeds Central... Kevin Meeson
Leeds East... Trevor Brown
Leeds North East... Tom Redmond
Leeds North West... Geoffrey Bulmer
Leeds West... Joanna Beverley
Leicester East...Colin Gilmore
Leicester South... Adi Waudby
Leicester West... Gary Reynolds
Leigh...Gary Chadwick
Lewes...David Lloyd
Leyton & Wanstead...Jim Clift
Lincoln...Rev Robert West
Liverpool Riverside... Peter Stafford
Liverpool Wavertree... Steven McEllenborough
Livingston...David Orr
Loughborough... Kevan Stafford
Louth & Horncastle... Julia Green
Ludlow...Christina Evans
Luton North...Shelley Rose
Luton South...Tony Blakey
Maidenhead...Tim Rait
Makerfield...Ken Haslam
Maldon... Len Blain
Manchester Central... Tony Trebilock
Mansfield...Rachel Hill
Meriden... Frank O'Brien
Merthyr Tydfil & Rhymney... Richard Barnes
Mid Derbyshire... Lewis Allesbrook
Mid Sussex... Stuart Minihane
Middlesbrough... Michael Ferguson
Middlesbrough South & East Cleveland... Shaun Gatley
Milton Keynes North... Richard Hamilton
Milton Keynes South... Matthew Tait
Mitcham and Morden...Tony Martin
Morley and Outwood...Chris Beverley
Neath...Michael Green
Newcastle Central... Ken Booth
Newcastle East... Alan Spence
Newcastle North... Terry Gibson
Newport East...Keith Jones
Newport West...Timothy Windsor
Nuneaton... Martyn Findley
Norfolk Mid...Christene Kelly
Norfolk North West...David Fleming...
Norfolk South West...Dennis Pearce
Normanton, Pontefract & Castleford... Graham Thewlis-Hardy
North Cornwall...Susan Bowen
North Durham... Peter Molloy
North Devon...Gary Marshall
North East Bedfordshire... Ian Seeby
North East Cambridgeshire... Susan Clapp
North Tyneside... John Burrows
North West Durham... Michael Stewart...
North Warwickshire... Jason Holmes
North West Leicestershire... Ian Meller
Northampton North... Raymond Beasley
Norwich North... Thomas Richardson
Norwich South... Len Heather
Nottingham North... Simon Brindley
Nottingham South Anthony Woodward
Ogmore... Kay Thomas
Old Bexley & Sidcup...John Brooks
Oldham East & Saddleworth...Alwyn Scott
Oldham West & Royton...Dave Joines
Orpington... Tess Cullhane
Pendle... James Jackman
Penistone & Stocksbridge... Paul James
Penrith & Borders...Chris Davidson
Peterborough... Dave Strickson
Plymouth Moor View...Roy Cook
Poole...David Holmes
Portsmouth South...Geoff Crompton
Putney...Peter Darby
Rayleigh & Wickford... Tony Evenett
Redcar... Kevin Broughton
Redditch... Andy Ingram
Rochford and Southend East... Geoff Strobridge... Romford...Bob Bailey
Rother Valley... William Blair
Rotherham... Marlene Guest
Rugby... Mark Badrick
Rutland & Melton...Keith Addison


----------



## JimPage (Apr 17, 2010)

St Austell and Newquay...James Fitton
St Helens South...James Winstanley
Saffron Walden...Chrissie Mitchell
Salisbury...Sean Witheridge
Salford... Tina Wingfield... 
Sevenoaks...Paul Golding
Sedgefield...Mark Walker
Scarborough & Whitby... Trisha Scott
Scunthorpe... Douglas Ward
Selby & Ainsty... Duncan Lorriman
Sheffield Brightside...John Sheldon
Sheffield Central... Tracey Smith
Sheffield Heeley... John Beatson
Sheffield South East... Chris Hartigan
Sherwood...James North
Shrewsbury and Atcham...James Whittall
Shropshire North...Phillip Reddall
Sittingbourne & Sheppey... Lawrence Tames
Skipton & Ripon... Bernard Allen
Sleaford and North Hykeham...Mike Clayton
Solihull... Andrew Terry
South Basildon & East Thurrock...Christopher Roberts
South Derbyshire... Peter Jarvis
South Holland & The Deepings...Roy Harban
South Leicestershire... Paul Preston
South Norfolk... Helen Mitchell
South Ribble...Rosalind Gauci...
South Shields... Donna Watson
South Staffordshire...David Bradnock
South West Bedfordshire... Mark Tolman
South West Surrey... Helen Hamilton
Southend West... Tony Gladwin 
Stafford...Roland Hynd
Stalybridge & Hyde... Anthony Jones
Stevenage... Robin Johnstone
Stockport... Duncan Warner
Stockton North... James MacPherson
Stockton South... Neil Sinclair
Stoke-on-Trent Central... Simon Darby 
Stoke-on-Trent North... Melanie Baddeley 
Stoke-on-Trent South... Michael Coleman
Stratford on avon...George Jones
Suffolk West...Ramon Johns
Sunderland Central... John McCaffrey
Sutton & Cheam...John Clarke
Sutton Coldfield...Robert Grierson
Swansea East...Clive Bennett
Swansea West... Alan Bateman
Swindon North...Reg Bates
Telford...Phil Spencer
Thurrock... Emma Colgate
Torbay... Ann Conway
Torfaen...Jennifer Noble
Torridge & West Devon...Nick Baker
Totnes...Michael Turner
Tunbridge Wells...Andrew Mcbride
Twickenham...Chris Hurst
Tynemouth... Dorothy Brooke
Uxbridge & South Ruslip...Barry Thompson
Vale of Clwyd... Ian Si'Ree
Walsall North...Christopher Woodall
Wakefield...Ian Senior
Wansbeck... Stephen Finlay
Washington & Sunderland West... Ian McDonald
Watford...Dr Andrew Emerson
Weaver Vale...Colin Marsh
Wells...Richard Boyce
Wellingborough...Rob Walker
Wentworth & Dearne... William Baldwin
West Aberdeenshire...Gary Raikes
West Bromwich East... Terry Lewin
West Bromwich West... Russ Green
Westminster North...Stephen Curry
Weston-Super-Mare...Peryn Parsons
Wigan...Dr Charles Mather
Windsor...Peter Phillips
Wolverhamton North East...Simon Patten
Worcester... Spencer Kirby
Workington... Martin Wingfield
Wrekin,The...Susan Harwood
Wrexham...Melvin Roberts
Wyre Forest... Gordon Howells
Wythenshawe & Sale East...Bernard Todd
Yeovil...Robert Baehr
York Central... Jeff Kelly... 
York Outer...Cathy Smurthwaite


----------



## JHE (Apr 17, 2010)

JimPage said:


> a list of the 333 seats declared so far...



That's a hefty £166,500 in deposits!

To save a deposit a candidate now has to get at least 5% of the votes cast.  It will be interesting to see how many of the 333 they save.


----------



## JimPage (Apr 17, 2010)

Just on BNP website- final total will be 338 parliamentary seats and 780 local ones


----------



## JimPage (Apr 17, 2010)

Breakdown of seats
Eastern – 40 seats out of a possible 58 . 
East Midlands – 34 seats out of a possible 46  
London – 33 seats out of a possible 73  
North East – 29 seats out of 29  
North West – 37 seats out of a possible 75 . 
Scotland – 14 seats out of a possible 59 . 
South East – 26 seats out of a possible 84  
South West – 18 seats out of a possible 55  
Wales – 20 seats out of a possible 40 
West Midlands – 38 seats out of a possible 59  
Yorkshire and the Humber – 47 seats out of a possible 54 

Hornchurch and Upminster and  Newcastle-under-Lyme awaiting announcement


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 18, 2010)

well, they're all awaiting announcement as the nominations haven't shut yet


----------



## Corax (Apr 19, 2010)

Candidates for Horsham and East Renfrewshire have withdrawn, BNP aren't replacing them.


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Apr 19, 2010)

Lest we forget... First of three parts @ Youtube:


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Apr 19, 2010)

AKA pseudonym said:


> Lest we forget... First of three parts @ Youtube:



Lest we forget what exactly?  It was Griffin's ability to avoid entrapment by Cook (into paramilitary activity), and the determined way he confronted Cook when the latter hoped to surprise him, that did much to endear Griffin to a BNP membership that was to a large extent suspicious of this third positionist _arriviste_. Such adroitness helped Griffin launch his leadership challenge against Tyndall, who was routinely made to look like a confused muppet on TV.  What next--are you going to post a link to the even more disastrous BBC/Searchlight 'Secret Agent' documentary, that really helped the BNP consolidate their political breakthrough, including from the resulting trial?  

You recyclers of failed liberal/_Guardianista_/_Searchlight_ propaganda can do all genuine anti-fascists a favour and sod off back to Hampstead.  Or, even better, go out and dish your idiotic HNH propaganda claiming Griffin is a Nazi: equally disastrous in terms of genuine anti-fascism.


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Apr 19, 2010)

lol

Aint no hampstead in Ireland..

Aint no organised fash gaining much ground either...

Maybe I should subscribe to your anti-fash tactics.. u seem to be doing so well


----------



## audiotech (Apr 19, 2010)

.....in the Green Party.


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Apr 19, 2010)

AKA pseudonym said:


> lol
> 
> Aint no hampstead in Ireland..
> 
> ...



if you were only talking about fascism in Ireland, I would have had no comment to make: however Griffin is a fascist in the UK (in case you hadn't noticed), so your pathetic attempt to play a nationalist card rather than answer my argument will fool none but the gullible


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Apr 19, 2010)

MC5 said:


> .....in the Green Party.



good of you to remind me to mention my take on Barking & Dagenham http://www.borderland.co.uk/preview_002.htm

...though that wasn't what you intended, was it? You thought to evade any argument by a piss-poor attempt at ridicule.

Reminding me why I post so rarely on this forum.


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Apr 19, 2010)

Larry O'Hara said:


> if you were only talking about fascism in Ireland, I would have had no comment to make: however Griffin is a fascist in the UK (in case you hadn't noticed), so your pathetic attempt to play a nationalist card rather than answer my argument will fool none but the gullible



As it goes the BNP are running 1 candidate in the 6 counties for the 'UK gov'... gonna get such a minuscule vote to be negligible... 39 Northern members on the leaked list, of which over half denied their existence with such a group...

You didn't present an argument just vitriolic BS... I merely pointed out that there is no hampstead in Ireland... not nationalism, just blatantly obvious! I would consider myself internationalistic.. one fight, one struggle...

Maybe you should wander over to indymedia.ie and see how we treat any attempt of Fascists gaining a foothold...

¡No Pasarán!


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 20, 2010)

AKA pseudonym said:


> Maybe you should wander over to indymedia.ie and see how we treat any attempt of Fascists gaining a foothold...


what, you big it up on the net?


----------



## audiotech (Apr 20, 2010)

Larry O'Hara said:


> good of you to remind me to mention my take on Barking & Dagenham http://www.borderland.co.uk/preview_002.htm
> 
> ...though that wasn't what you intended, was it? You thought to evade any argument by a piss-poor attempt at ridicule.
> 
> Reminding me why I post so rarely on this forum.



You beat me to it with your "sod off back to Hampstead" pisser.


----------



## JimPage (Apr 20, 2010)

AKA pseudonym said:


> As it goes the BNP are running 1 candidate in the 6 counties for the 'UK gov'... gonna get such a minuscule vote to be negligible...



Hadnt noted that- where are they standing?

And as to geting a miniscule vote- why? Thats what we use to say in Scotland before the Glasgow NE by-election- and what people in what purport to be labour strongholds throughout england said as well in the past...


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Apr 20, 2010)

AKA pseudonym said:


> As it goes the BNP are running 1 candidate in the 6 counties for the 'UK gov'... gonna get such a minuscule vote to be negligible... 39 Northern members on the leaked list, of which over half denied their existence with such a group...



Not something I commented on--I never raised the question of Ireland, nor did you in your first post.   So to retrospectively imply plugging the Cook Report was anything to do with the BNP standing in the 6 counties is irrelevant.



> You didn't present an argument just vitriolic BS...



Drawing attention to the inadequacy of the Cook Report could never be as BS as the original programme...And it is not BS to say the show strengthened GRiffin's hand inside the BNP--unless you regard that as a good thing?



> I merely pointed out that there is no hampstead in Ireland... not nationalism, just blatantly obvious!



Indeed--but as I have pointed out (three times now) your original post did not refer to Ireland at all, a deliberate red herring you introduced to evade the issues.


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Apr 20, 2010)

AKA pseudonym said:


> Maybe I should subscribe to your anti-fash tactics.. u seem to be doing so well



My tactics are unfortunately (in my view) not the predominant ones on offer--sadly, those are HNH & the UAF clowns, plus the liberal/Searchlight media circus.  So, I don't accept any responsibility for those tactics failure.


----------



## audiotech (Apr 22, 2010)

A selection of election leaflets published by British National Party.

http://www.thestraightchoice.org/parties/british_national_party/


----------



## audiotech (Apr 22, 2010)

"Griffin wants his party to govern the finances of Barking and Dagenham council, but how can you trust a man with a budget of almost £200 million who almost ruined his parents through his own profligacy."

http://lancasteruaf.blogspot.com/2010/04/bnp-leader-nick-griffins-parents-our.html


----------



## JimPage (Apr 22, 2010)

17 NF confirmed

Tyneside North: Hull East: Bradford East: Keighley: Rochdale: Rossendale & Darwen: Birmingham Erdington: Birmingham Yardley: Dudley North: Montgomeryshire: Ruislip, Northwood & Pinner: Uxbridge & South Ruislip: Hayes & Harlington: Tonbridge & Malling: Maidstone & The Weald: Faversham & Mid Kent: West Ham:


----------



## JimPage (Apr 22, 2010)

Final BNP numbers not confirmed, few new ones like Bethnal Green and Bow added- total number somehwere between 330 and 340  think


----------



## elbows (Apr 22, 2010)

Marmite threatening legal action against BNP to stop it being used in a party broadcast.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/election_2010/8637473.stm



> "We are currently initiating injunction proceedings against the BNP to remove the Marmite jar from the online broadcast and prevent them from using it in future."


----------



## JimPage (Apr 22, 2010)

elbows said:


> Marmite threatening legal action against BNP to stop it being used in a party broadcast.
> 
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/election_2010/8637473.stm



Interesting- as unlike the searchlight nonsense about "BNP campaign collapsing"  Unilever have unlimited money, and will probably go after them for a multi squllion damages action


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 22, 2010)

Or they'll just edit the broadcast.


----------



## JimPage (Apr 22, 2010)

Full list of candidates for all parties now available here

http://election.pressassociation.com/Nominations/general.php

Confirm 337 BNP


----------



## FreddyB (Apr 22, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Or they'll just edit the broadcast.



What? You don't think the BNP will fight it in court on the basis that parody doesn't infirnge copyright and commit all of their resources to winning an important battle to defend freedom of speech?


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Apr 22, 2010)

http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/index.php/news/content/view/full/89438

Good article that typifies how some have switched to the fascists.

Who is mostly to blame for the rise?

Vermin Labour councillors who take the electorate for granted. Sure the broader left and other parties should have filled the vacuum but the main responsibility has to be with those elected to power.

We do not call them out enough on this. Labour's disgusting arrogance and complacency is one of the best assets the fascist has and needs to be exposed.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 22, 2010)

FreddyB said:


> What? You don't think the BNP will fight it in court on the basis that parody doesn't infirnge copyright and commit all of their resources to winning an important battle to defend freedom of speech?


you've been listening to lee barnes again


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Apr 22, 2010)

JimPage said:


> Hadnt noted that- where are they standing?
> 
> And as to geting a miniscule vote- why? Thats what we use to say in Scotland before the Glasgow NE by-election- and what people in what purport to be labour strongholds throughout england said as well in the past...



Seems they have bottled it...

No mention of Nick Blake in the 108 declared candidates in the six counties...

previously reported @ Indymedia & Irish News


----------



## JimPage (Apr 23, 2010)

AKA pseudonym said:


> Seems they have bottled it...
> 
> No mention of Nick Blake in the 108 declared candidates in the six counties...
> 
> previously reported @ Indymedia & Irish News



Think you wrong here, he is a lodge master this side of the pond, and as promised is standing in Torridge and West Devon

http://www.torridge.gov.uk/CHttpHandler.ashx?id=5183&amp;p=0

Their only NI based candidate is Jennifer Griffin in Delyn, north wales


----------



## JimPage (Apr 23, 2010)

BNP confirm total is 339 constituencies, up from 118 last time


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 23, 2010)

i see they've launched their manifesto at last.


----------



## Grandma Death (Apr 23, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


> i see they've launched their manifesto at last.



Immigration from all muslim countries to be stopped.....surprise surprise.


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Apr 25, 2010)

Griff is on c4 news later today:



> @krishgm (via twitter)    Griffin also makes an interesting defence of the rights of homophobes, sexists and racists to discriminate. on at 6.30



should be interesting?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 25, 2010)

Grandma Death said:


> Immigration from all muslim countries to be stopped.....surprise surprise.



it was in their 2005 manifesto so if you expected anything different it was rather silly.


----------



## audiotech (Apr 25, 2010)

BNP leader Nick Griffin has been secretly filmed out on the far-right party's campaign trail, where he compared east London to Nairobi.


Accompany Griffin is Richard Edmonds, long time nutzi, who claimed the Holocaust was an "evil hoax". Edmonds also spent time in custody over a racial attack in 1993 and had previously been convicted for smashing a statue of Nelson Mandela on London's South Bank. Further controversy came in 1993 when he told The Guardian's Duncan Campbell that 'we [the BNP] are 100% racist'.



> Our man watched BNP activists knock on at least 1,000 doors - but only five potential supporters shook his hand.





> Griffin told a radio phone-in he discussed immigration with a West Indian family he met canvassing - and claimed they backed his views.
> He said: "They were saying the same as white people - that our kids are at the back of the queue when it comes to housing behind Somalis and Albanians who have only just arrived and it's not fair. There are plenty of West Indians agreeing with our message that Britain's full. They're not racist and nor are we."
> 
> But at no time during the hours we spent with Griffin in Barking did he talk about immigration to any West Indian family.



http://www.people.co.uk/news/tm_hea...objectid=22210082&siteid=93463-name_page.html


...


----------



## JimPage (Apr 26, 2010)

Interstingly almost NO hatchet/monstering jobs in the media this time round against them?. Searchlight must be asking too high a price for their placed stories this time round

Scottish papers yesterday reported, some on the front page or page 3, that the step-father of KT Tunstall is standing for them in Livingston at weekend. Hardly a devastating expose.


----------



## JimPage (Apr 26, 2010)

BNP PPB is tonight incidentally, everywhere but Scotland where it was shown last week


----------



## audiotech (Apr 26, 2010)

Just had a BNP leaflet through my door, delivered by the postman and no doubt a CWU member too!

Contact address:

BNP
PO Box 5057
Nuneaton
CV11 9FP

If anyone wants to send any messages. Don't forget to not put a postage stamp on it.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Apr 27, 2010)

MC5 said:


> BNP leader Nick Griffin has been secretly filmed out on the far-right party's campaign trail, where he compared east London to Nairobi.
> 
> 
> Accompany Griffin is Richard Edmonds, long time nutzi, who claimed the Holocaust was an "evil hoax". Edmonds also spent time in custody over a racial attack in 1993 and had previously been convicted for smashing a statue of Nelson Mandela on London's South Bank. Further controversy came in 1993 when he told The Guardian's Duncan Campbell that 'we [the BNP] are 100% racist'.
> ...



The claim in the People that their 'man' watched as Griffin knocked on a 1,000 doors and only 5 'potential' voters shook his hand is stunning in its stupidity. 

Not only because the BNP have very significant support in the area, but also when you tally up the figures quoted and then alot as little as a minute per door knocked, the 1,000 doors canvassed amounts to 16 and half hours of canvassing! -without a break. 

Looked at one way it is laughable, but in another utterly self-defeating, as they are fooling no one but themselves. 

In the 70's, 80's and early 90's this type of outlandish propaganda could be found routinely in far-right publications. Now it is so-called anti-fascists who are forced to rely on peddling lies to maintain morale. 

Tells you all you need to know about the current state of play. And the utter lack of integrity of those running the anti-BNP campaign.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 28, 2010)

Joe Reilly said:


> The claim in the People that their 'man' watched as Griffin knocked on a 1,000 doors and only 5 'potential' voters shook his hand is stunning in its stupidity.
> 
> Not only because the BNP have very significant support in the area, but also when you tally up the figures quoted and then alot as little as a minute per door knocked, the 1,000 doors canvassed amounts to 16 and half hours of canvassing! -without a break.
> 
> ...


http://www.politicsmagazine.com/magazine-issues/march-2010/organizing-for-hope-not-hate/


----------



## JimPage (Apr 28, 2010)

Joe Reilly said:


> In the 70's, 80's and early 90's this type of outlandish propaganda could be found routinely in far-right publications. Now it is so-called anti-fascists who are forced to rely on peddling lies to maintain morale.
> 
> Tells you all you need to know about the current state of play. And the utter lack of integrity of those running the anti-BNP campaign.



Haven't you heard the current Searchlight line that the current BNP election campaign is a sign of their weakness. Indeed, thats how it must be looking like from their planet, but meanwhile on planet earth....


----------



## audiotech (Apr 28, 2010)

Without this campaigning initiative by Hope not Hate, the BNP would be in a much more powerful position than they are at present, which is bad enough as it is,  that's for sure?



> The anti-BNP Hope Not Hate campaign attempted to build something never successfully completed in the UK before—a grassroots community based campaign almost entirely built online. Within six months, Hope Not Hate built an e-mail list that is likely the largest and most powerful in the UK, spurred thousands of people who had never been involved in a political campaign before into action and increased donations in a way that has been a game changer for the organization.





> Hope Not Hate’s ability to attract supporters through low bar activities online and transform them into political activists has borne an entirely new generation of people willing to donate their time and money to a political cause.





> ....in the 48 hours following the launch of 2010 campaign 4,600 people signed up to take part in local campaign events. 1245 people signed up to the “Local Organiser” program and over 1500 offered to make calls to voters in the areas that the BNP threaten.



http://www.politicsmagazine.com/magazine-issues/march-2010/organizing-for-hope-not-hate/


...


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Apr 28, 2010)

MC5 said:


> Without this campaigning initiative by Hope not Hate, the BNP would be in a much more powerful position than they are at present, which is bad enough as it is,  that's for sure



couldn't disagree more--below is copy of recent email (26/4/10) I sent to the editor of the magazine the self-advertisement appeared in.  Having already set out in print my criticisms of Hope Not Hate (http://www.borderland.co.uk/preview_003.htm gives a clue) I'm not going to do so again here, but suffice to say

Blue State Digital/Hope Not Hate

1) Have lied about the success of their campaign

2) Rely on outdated Nazi stereotypes of the BNP when the BNP are more sophisticated than that

3) Are a top-down undemocratic organisation

4) Are essentially a New Labour Front

5) Are, in terms of _Searchlight_'s documentary The Secret Agent & resulting court case, responsible to a large degree in helping the BNP make a breakthrough

*EMAIL FOR EDITOR'S ATTENTION
*

Dear Sir/Madam,

my attention has very recently been drawn to an article in your March issue by Dan Thain/Matthew McGregor on Blue State Digital's involvement in the 'Hope Not Hate' campaign here in the UK.

While agreeing with the need to oppose fascist groups like the BNP effectively, it is my considered contention that Hope Not Hate does not/did not do that.  Therefore, the presentation by Thain/McGregor of this case study as 'success' is, in my considered opinion, tendentious.

I will happily write a reply, even if only a letter, explaining where their article has the facts wrong, if I can be sure it will be published (whether in print or on-line).

The latest issue of the magazine I edit, Notes From the Borderland, has a detailed critique (among other things) of Hope Not Hate that Blue State Digital have not responded to, despite being sent a copy and alerted to it in other ways.

Thain/McGregor's own expertise in the field of fighting fascism is, to put it politely, of uncertain provenance.  My own dates back over 30 years, and includes the fact that my PhD (London University/2001) was in the very subject of modern Brituish fascism.

Feel free to copy this email to BSD: and inform them that while they can evade legitimate anti-fascist criticism like my own for the moment, that moment will not be eternal.  I remain ready and willing to engage them in public debate about the efficacy (or otherwise) of their strategy, lucrative as it might well be.

Yours Sincerely,

Larry O'Hara


----------



## TremulousTetra (Apr 28, 2010)

Larry, in all honesty I find some of your conclusions debatable.  However, that anti fascism in Britain has problems, some of which you mention, is undeniable.  

Equally interesting, and probably more productive from my point of view, might be an exposition of their solution/s.  Or even better, is there already an anti fascism/anti fascist organisation you can point to, which is a good delineation of the way anti fascism should be working, comrade?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 28, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> Larry, in all honesty I find some of your conclusions debatable.


that's a pity, because you can't debate.


----------



## JimPage (Apr 29, 2010)

MC5 said:


> Without this campaigning initiative by Hope not Hate, the BNP would be in a much more powerful position than they are at present, which is bad enough as it is,  that's for sure?
> 
> 
> http://www.politicsmagazine.com/magazine-issues/march-2010/organizing-for-hope-not-hate/
> ...



Sorry, this sounds like a Searchlight press release, not an independant peice of analysis


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Apr 29, 2010)

JimPage said:


> Sorry, this sounds like a Searchlight press release, not an independant peice of analysis



It is--written by their paid-for spin merchants in Blue State Digital.  Utter bare-faced liars: try this one for size "HNH used Blue State Digital to build local networks..entirely autonomous from the official campaign structure".   Yet the only campaign structure, and forum for discussion/mobilisation, is the centrally-controlled HNH web-site, there is nothing else.  Therefore the claims for 'autonomy' are untrue--you BSD creeps will have to do better than this in the disinformation stakes.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Apr 30, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


> that's a pity, because you can't debate.



What is the point of debating anti fascism, with somebody who doesn't believe there should be any anti fascism?  Your comment is stupid.  

Where as Larry suggests there is a legitimate alternative, so it perfectly reasonable, fraternal, to be honestly interested in what the alternative is.  For as anti fascists, we both want the same goal.  So unless you can explain how the question is unreasonable, shut up.


----------



## Larry O'Hara (May 4, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> vWhere as Larry suggests there is a legitimate alternative, so it perfectly reasonable, fraternal, to be honestly interested in what the alternative is.  For as anti fascists, we both want the same goal.



I have written extensively on this in _Notes From the Borderland_ (various issues, including latest, issue 9, which the SWP bookshop Bookmarks has always resolutely refused to sell (very "comradely").  I realise that for many, something not on the internet is not 'real', and when the NFB web-site is revamped (and the fact it is taking so long is due to factors outside our control) we will put a number of these on-line.  Housmans bookshop 5 Caledonian Road Kings Cross sells the magazine (including all back issues) as does Freedom in Whitechapel & we on the_ NFB_ web-site (Google it) do also.  Distributed by Central Books also.  We also send copies to the British Library.  Indeed, we sent a free sample copy to every University Politics Dept in the Uk & Eire recently.  and so on.  Pending web-site revamp, I'm not going to reproduce articles here. One was also sent to Martin Smith of LMHR.  Ask him for his copy...


----------



## Pickman's model (May 5, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> What is the point of debating anti fascism, with somebody who doesn't believe there should be any anti fascism?  Your comment is stupid.


even for you that's pisspoor


----------



## TremulousTetra (May 5, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


> even for you that's pisspoor


true though isn't it?


----------



## TremulousTetra (May 5, 2010)

Larry O'Hara said:


> I have written extensively on this in _Notes From the Borderland_ (various issues, including latest, issue 9, which the SWP bookshop Bookmarks has always resolutely refused to sell (very "comradely").  I realise that for many, something not on the internet is not 'real', and when the NFB web-site is revamped (and the fact it is taking so long is due to factors outside our control) we will put a number of these on-line.  Housmans bookshop 5 Caledonian Road Kings Cross sells the magazine (including all back issues) as does Freedom in Whitechapel & we on the_ NFB_ web-site (Google it) do also.  Distributed by Central Books also.  We also send copies to the British Library.  Indeed, we sent a free sample copy to every University Politics Dept in the Uk & Eire recently.  and so on.  Pending web-site revamp, I'm not going to reproduce articles here. One was also sent to Martin Smith of LMHR.  Ask him for his copy...


Hey Larry, I have no problemn with, in fact I'm interested in looking at what you've got as an alternative.  I must be honest, I don't want to read extensively, you surely must have a synopsis of the alternative.  Not really interested in a critique of what we have at the moment, because I think we all have that already.  I would really appreciate it if you could email me a PDF with a synopsis of the alternative to resistancemp3@yahoo.co.uk and I will put it on www.ResistanceMP3.org.uk (when I get it working again).


----------



## Pickman's model (May 5, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> true though isn't it?



the truth? you can't handle the truth.


----------



## Melinda (May 5, 2010)

No one talking about this? I did a search...

The Romford campaign took off today! 

Bob Bailey got into it with some Asian boys.  

Gordon Brown should take note. 


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politi...nd/8663681.stm

These boys are gonna be heros!


----------



## elbows (May 5, 2010)

Your link doesnt seem to be working. Try this.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/election_2010/england/8663681.stm


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## Melinda (May 5, 2010)

Cheers elbows, dont know what happened there.


----------



## Stay Beautiful (May 5, 2010)

Melinda said:


> No one talking about this? I did a search...
> 
> The Romford campaign took off today!
> 
> ...


 
'There is more of us than there is you, mate'.... **spittle lands on face**


----------



## Corax (May 6, 2010)

I said many many pages back than IMO the BNP are a joke party and no real threat.  The usual suspects countered that I wasn't living in the real world, or some such to that effect.

Events since then have only served to reinforce that opinion.  I still don't believe the BNP will achieve any progress whatsoever.  Even if they get more votes, I think the higher turnout will swamp them.

We'll see tomorrow morning I suppose.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 6, 2010)

Corax said:


> I said many many pages back than IMO the BNP are a joke party and no real threat.  The usual suspects countered that I wasn't living in the real world, or some such to that effect.
> 
> Events since then have only served to reinforce that opinion.  I still don't believe the BNP will achieve any progress whatsoever.  Even if they get more votes, I think the higher turnout will swamp them.
> 
> We'll see tomorrow morning I suppose.



You're going to take some serious ribbage if you're wrong, though.


----------



## Corax (May 6, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> You're going to take some serious ribbage if you're wrong, though.



If I gave a toss (about opinion here, not the threat), that would be a problem.

I'd also see a certain irony in anti-fash gloating about fash progress, iyswim.


----------



## TremulousTetra (May 6, 2010)

Melinda said:


> No one talking about this? I did a search...
> 
> The Romford campaign took off today!
> 
> ...


tis here
http://action.hopenothate.org.uk/pa... Stoke&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=05/05/10


----------



## The Black Hand (May 7, 2010)

Important results here - Sunderland BNP local collapse. 

From being a BNP flagship area - standing full slates year after year for most of the decade. The BNP ONLY managed to stand candidates in less than half of the wards - 12 out of 25 seats. Results;
http://www.sunderland.gov.uk/CHttpHa...hx?id=8511&p=0

I will crunch the numbers but their vote will have fallen by over half


----------



## Corax (May 7, 2010)

I can't believe the BNP have made taken up a central role in national politics now.

Oh wait, they haven't.


----------



## butchersapron (May 7, 2010)

No one said that they would you wounded dick. Still they've just put in the best ever general election performance by a far-right party in history, following on from the  the best ever european performances, the best ever local performances and so on. Grow up and read what people have been actually arguing not this sulking idiocy.


----------



## audiotech (May 7, 2010)

Nicked from elsewhere.



> A staggering fascist advance of 2% in 31 years.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 7, 2010)

Corax said:


> If I gave a toss (about opinion here, not the threat), that would be a problem.
> 
> I'd also see a certain irony in anti-fash gloating about fash progress, iyswim.



It wouldn't be gloating, it'd be "I told you so!".


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 7, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> No one said that they would you wounded dick. Still they've just put in the best ever general election performance by a far-right party in history, following on from the  the best ever european performances, the best ever local performances and so on. Grow up and read what people have been actually arguing not this sulking idiocy.



They've certainly buried Mosley's legacy in a way the NF and the Tyndall-era BNP were never able to.


----------



## TremulousTetra (May 7, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> They've certainly buried Mosley's legacy in a way the NF and the Tyndall-era BNP were never able to.



So what should those opposed to fascism do about it?


----------



## TremulousTetra (May 7, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> No one said that they would you wounded dick. Still they've just put in the best ever general election performance by a far-right party in history, following on from the  the best ever european performances, the best ever local performances and so on. Grow up and read what people have been actually arguing not this sulking idiocy.


So what should those opposed to fascism do about it?


----------



## Proper Tidy (May 7, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> So what should those opposed to fascism do about it?



Perhaps building in communities and engaging with working class voters on working class issues might be a start, as opposed to saying Nazi a lot and flitting around with pop concerts.


----------



## Random (May 7, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> So what should those opposed to fascism do about it?



That's what you like about the SWP, isn't it, Rmp?  They're always ready to tell you what you should do.


----------



## TremulousTetra (May 7, 2010)

Random said:


> That's what you like about the SWP, isn't it, Rmp?  They're always ready to tell you what you should do.


Can always rely on you to be non-political and ten years out of date.


----------



## Random (May 7, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> Can always rely on you to be non-political and ten years out of date.



what happened ten years ago?


----------



## TremulousTetra (May 7, 2010)

Proper Tidy said:


> Perhaps building in communities and engaging with working class voters on working class issues might be a start



That's a given of what socialist's should do in general, but not an answer specific questions as to what should those opposed to fascism, but not necessarily opposed to capitalism, do about the fascsist's now?


----------



## TremulousTetra (May 7, 2010)

Random said:


> what happened ten years ago?


God dickwad, I left, stopped reading all the publications, and have an insignificant amount of contact with.  You probably know more about what they "tell people to think" than I do.


----------



## Proper Tidy (May 7, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> That's a given of what socialist's should do in general, but not an answer specific questions as to what should those opposed to fascism, but not necessarily opposed to capitalism, do about the fascsist's now?



The same thing. I didn't mention anti-capitalism. If people want to stop the growth of the far right then they have to engage with why people are turning to the far right and offer an alternative. Most of all, they have to be seen to be based in communities and part of communities, not as part time concert promoters and placard wavers.


----------



## Random (May 7, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> God dickwad, I left, stopped reading all the publications, and have an insignificant amount of contact with.  You probably know more about what they "tell people to think" than I do.



So you stopped reading all the publications, but you listen to endless soundfiles of their leadership giving speeches instead?

I'm sure I remember you being an SWP member as recently as just a few years ago. But if I've jumped to the wrong conclusion, because you always defend them on here then I apologise for the implication that you are a member.


----------



## TremulousTetra (May 7, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


> the truth? you can't handle the truth.


Well I'll be safe reading your post's then.


----------



## Random (May 7, 2010)

Proper Tidy said:


> The same thing. I didn't mention anti-capitalism. If people want to stop the growth of the far right then they have to engage with why people are turning to the far right and offer an alternative. Most of all, they have to be seen to be based in communities and part of communities, not as part time concert promoters and placard wavers.



Do you think, then that it's possible for a movement that is not anticapitalist to actually stop the BNP?


----------



## Proper Tidy (May 7, 2010)

Random said:


> Do you think, then that it's possible for a movement that is not anticapitalist to actually stop the BNP?



Yes, hypothetically. The BNP have gained their support largely from disaffected former Old Labour voters; and Labour were never an 'anti-capitalist' party.


----------



## TremulousTetra (May 7, 2010)

Random said:


> So you stopped reading all the publications, but you listen to endless soundfiles of their leadership giving speeches instead?
> 
> I'm sure I remember you being an SWP member as recently as just a few years ago. But if I've jumped to the wrong conclusion, because you always defend them on here then I apologise for the implication that you are a member.


 I used to listen to quite a lot when I was a member, but don't listen to endless soundfile's anymore.  Also I don't defend them. If you ever actually read what I say, I regularly caveat it with something like this is a strawman arguement.  I have also regularly said "I supported the SWP because they were the least worst option", hardly a glowing indictment.  I am perfectly happy for people to attack the real SWP, the truth is the only thing I'm interested in,,,, now.  And even that, is in a non-partisan/political, philosophic kind of way.  But having said all that, of course my 'truth' is coloured by my experiences, as is yours.

No need to apologise though, being thought to be an SWP member is is less offensive than being thought to be one of the tiny milieu of non-political 'anarchist' and fellow travellers on U75.


----------



## Random (May 7, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> I am perfectly happy for people to attack the real SWP, the truth is the only thing I'm interested in,,,, now.


  But your view of what the 'real SWP' is, is fairly close to what the SWP leadership say it is. Hence my belief that you use SWP policy as a kind of intellectual crutch.


----------



## TremulousTetra (May 7, 2010)

Proper Tidy said:


> Proper Tidy said:
> 
> 
> > The same thing. I didn't mention anti-capitalism. If people want to stop the growth of the far right then they have to engage with why people are turning to the far right
> ...


So so what is your 'alternative', that you would offer the disaffected 'labour' voters, who now vote for the fascsist's?  Reformism MK2?


----------



## Proper Tidy (May 7, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> < absolutely agree. But isn't what produces the far right, the fascists, capitalism? So the only real alternative is............?
> 
> You see there are many progressive people who are not united about what an alternative could be, but they are united in their opposition to fascism.  What do we say to them?  Ignore them?
> 
> ...



I'm interested in building an electoral movement that is anti-capitalist and will try to address the lack of working class political representation. However, as you observe, not all people who are anti-racist are anti-capitalist, Fine. These people should still look to build in communities and offer a political challenge if they are serious about challenging the far right because that is the only way it will be done. That I may choose to pursue building a political alternative that advocates a world beyond capitalism is neither here nor there in this regard.

That capitalism causes racism, nationalism etc is irrelevant as to whether people will choose to vote BNP or AN Other party that they feel is at least representing their interests.

I can see the UAF/SWP logic going on in your post, which is that UAF must be abroad alliance against fascism yadda yadda - to what end? What has this achieved? UAF takes up a lot of the energy and activity of (particularly) young activists with little end product.


----------



## Random (May 7, 2010)

Proper Tidy said:


> I'm interested in building an electoral movement that is anti-capitalist and will try to address the lack of working class political representation. However, as you observe, not all people who are anti-racist are anti-capitalist, Fine. These people should still look to build in communities and offer a political challenge if they are serious about challenging the far right because that is the only way it will be done. That I may choose to pursue building a political alternative that advocates a world beyond capitalism is neither here nor there in this regard.


 Shouldn't work in comunities be part of offering a challenge to capitalism, rather than something that you do separate from the 'bread and butter' stuff?  You're still basically accepting the UAF's distinction between the political party that knows the score, and the vague reformist work (whether an alliance or not) that stops the BNP.


----------



## Proper Tidy (May 7, 2010)

Random said:


> Shouldn't work in comunities be part of offering a challenge to capitalism, rather than something that you do separate from the 'bread and butter' stuff?  You're still basically accepting the UAF's distinction between the political party that knows the score, and the vague reformist work (whether an alliance or not) that stops the BNP.



I'm really not. I am answering the specific question posed, which is what the liberals etc that UAF contains should be doing. They are not interesting in challenging capitalism, fine. If they want to defeat the far right then they should still adopt the same strategy of community work and engagement. I'm not arguing that the far left should jump into bed with these people - just making the point that anti-racism isn't pop concerts, face-painting and placard waving.


----------



## Random (May 7, 2010)

Proper Tidy said:


> I'm really not. I am answering the specific question posed, which is what the liberals etc that UAF contains should be doing. They are not interesting in challenging capitalism, fine. If they want to defeat the far right then they should still adopt the same strategy of community work and engagement.


 But where are you and your 'political alternative' while these liberals are doing the do?


----------



## Proper Tidy (May 7, 2010)

Random said:


> But where are you and your 'political alternative' while these liberals are doing the do?



Well, it wouldn't be 'my' political alternative. We would be looking to build the political alternative, obviously. Look - nobody is ever going to build a political alternative that can challenge capitalism whilst trying to co-opt liberals. If those liberals still want to play a role in anti-racism then fine, but broad anti-fascist alliances like UAF don't work as the message gets so watered down and ends up the essentially apolitical mess with no analysis beyond 'don't be racist' that we see with UAF - so those liberals should crack on by themselves. In terms of how they try and connect with the disaffacted voters liable to turn to the far right, they would still need to adopt more or less the same campaigning strategy - but clearly not as some sort of far left/liberal/religious lash-up.

Those of us who want to build a platform capable of providing working class political representation and ultimately challenging capitalism should go our own way, the liberals theirs. The lash-up is doomed to failure.


----------



## Random (May 7, 2010)

Maybe I'm not really sure here what is meant by 'liberal'.  'Everyone who's not a hardened lefty' will include lots of people who are, tbh more anticapitalist in their day to day attitudes than lots of left politicoes.


----------



## Proper Tidy (May 7, 2010)

Random said:


> Maybe I'm not really sure here what is meant by 'liberal'.  'Everyone who's not a hardened lefty' will include lots of people who are, tbh more anticapitalist in their day to day attitudes than lots of left politicoes.



Well, what has that got to do with it?

I think you are on about something entirely different than I am.

UAF and their likes are attempts to form cross-class cross-tradition anti-racist organisations. Such organisations are singularly unable to put forward any sort of coherent political arguments because there is no consensus and their politics is confused and contradictory.

Anybody serious about challenging the far right should be more concerned with offering political alternatives. A cross-class cross-tradition political alternative would be just as ham-strung as UAF.

If people are opposed to capitalism then you would assume they would gravitate towards a political challenger that is similarly anti-capitalist. Those who aren't, won't.

Spending so much energy and resources on the likes of UAF is wasted when it could be put towards providing genuine challenges to the far right.


----------



## Gingerman (May 7, 2010)

What's the difference between the BNP and a bus?

A bus has seats


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 7, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> So what should those opposed to fascism do about it?


That depends on how tied you are to not contravening the law.


----------



## Kaye (May 7, 2010)

BNP "wiped out" in Barking council elections, apparently.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 7, 2010)

Proper Tidy said:


> Perhaps building in communities and engaging with working class voters on working class issues might be a start, as opposed to saying Nazi a lot and flitting around with pop concerts.



I don't think that the two have to be opposed. 
What should happen is that all means to hand are used, from community organisation and engagement to pop concerts and students saying "Nazi" and "fascist" a lot (and not just to their lecturers), but we also need to remember that allied to that is the occasional need to physically confront fascists; to remind them that they never have and never will rule the streets.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 7, 2010)

Random said:


> Do you think, then that it's possible for a movement that is not anticapitalist to actually stop the BNP?



Depends what you mean by "stop".
If you're following the usual Trot lexicon of taking "stop" to mean "smash the political organisation of", then it's not going to happen, whether attempted by capitalist or anti-capitalist.
If you what you mean by "stop" is "prevent them advancing politically", then a non anti-capitalist movement *could* do so, although extent would depend on the mode of capitalism favoured. The more "free market", the less likely IMO.


----------



## Proper Tidy (May 7, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> Depends what you mean by "stop".
> If you're following the usual Trot lexicon of taking "stop" to mean "smash the political organisation of", then it's not going to happen, whether attempted by capitalist or anti-capitalist.
> If you what you mean by "stop" is "prevent them advancing politically", then a non anti-capitalist movement *could* do so, although extent would depend on the mode of capitalism favoured. The more "free market", the less likely IMO.



I think you are correct here, although I do think you conflate 'trot' with 'a certain brand of trot'!


----------



## TremulousTetra (May 8, 2010)

Proper Tidy said:


> I'm interested in building an electoral movement that is anti-capitalist and will try to address the lack of working class political representation. However, as you observe, not all people who are anti-racist are anti-capitalist, Fine. These people should still look to build in communities and offer a political challenge if they are serious about challenging the far right because that is the only way it will be done. That I may choose to pursue building a political alternative that advocates a world beyond capitalism is neither here nor there in this regard.
> 
> That capitalism causes racism, nationalism etc is irrelevant as to whether people will choose to vote BNP or AN Other party that they feel is at least representing their interests.
> 
> I can see the UAF/SWP logic going on in your post, which is that UAF must be abroad alliance against fascism yadda yadda - to what end? What has this achieved? UAF takes up a lot of the energy and activity of (particularly) young activists with little end product.


The aim of anti-fascism the UAF searchlight etc.  Is to mobilize as many people, mass action, opposed to fascism as possible, wherever and whenever the fascists raise their heads.  Why 1.  Because mass action is progressive, an area we can beat the fascist, who historically have always needed the state to carry out their aims.  2.  The anti-fascists are the majority.  The vote for the fascists in barking stayed the same but mobilising the vast majority, did deliver a blow to the their building.  (Acknowledged by Griffin)
Anti-fascism is a defensive action, not meant to win the hearts and minds of those voting BNP's, however.  Whilst working with the most progressive people in the anti-fascist movement, there is no reason you cannot make the argument you're making, that deals with the problem properly, and literally smash the BNP's, racism, etc. You need to build the real political alternative such as you are describing as well.  It is not either or, it is both at the same time.

Like VP says;





ViolentPanda said:


> I don't think that the two have to be opposed.
> What should happen is that all means to hand are used, from community organisation and engagement to pop concerts and students saying "Nazi" and "fascist" a lot (and not just to their lecturers), but we also need to remember that allied to that is the occasional need to physically confront fascists; to remind them that they never have and never will rule the streets.


----------



## Proper Tidy (May 8, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> The aim of anti-fascism the UAF searchlight etc.  Is to mobilize as many people, mass action, opposed to fascism as possible, wherever and whenever the fascists raise their heads.  Why 1.  Because mass action is progressive, an area we can beat the fascist, who historically have always needed the state to carry out their aims.  2.  The anti-fascists are the majority.  The vote for the fascists in barking stayed the same but mobilising the vast majority, did deliver a blow to the their building.  (Acknowledged by Griffin)
> Anti-fascism is a defensive action, not meant to win the hearts and minds of those voting BNP's, however.  Whilst working with the most progressive people in the anti-fascist movement, there is no reason you cannot make the argument you're making, that deals with the problem properly, and literally smash the BNP's, racism, etc. You need to build the real political alternative such as you are describing as well.  It is not either or, it is both at the same time.
> 
> Like VP says;



But doesn't the constant 'energy' required by UAF and Searchlight, often to little effect, detract from the actual politics? Isn't it also the case that popular frontism with liberals and faith-based groups with essentially conservative values blunts any opportunities to advocate working-class orientated politics?

To get a little bit reductive, don't slogans like 'vote anybody but the BNP' completely undermine the objective of working-class political representation? And why talk about 'smashing' the BNP or the EDL when evidently UAF are not equipped to do either? Does this not give a false impression of UAF which ultimately acts counter-productively? 

And if it is the aim of UAF to 'mobilise as many people' as possible, why do they behave in such a sectarian manner to the rest of the af movement? I have personal experience of this by the way, more than once - unless UAF are allowed to take the lead role and put their branding at the forefront, what you get is either very little mobilisation from the UAF or all too often a counter-mobilisation, and they will then proceed to either a) offer up formulaic criticisms after the event that take no account of events and are clearly designed to undermine what UAF no doubt see as 'competitors', or to b) take credit when they have not played any organisational role, or in some perplexing cases, both.

It is difficult not to come to the conclusion that UAF are primarily motivated by self-promotion and obtaining as large a market share of the movement as possible; which in turn leads to their attitude towards popular-frontism, rather than any honest conviction about the need to mobilise all sections of society opposed to fascism. As for why UAF are obsessed with their brand dominating the movement, often to the expense of the movement - well, it can only be assumed that they are motivated by access to trade union funding and/or promotion of SWP.


----------



## TremulousTetra (May 8, 2010)

Proper Tidy said:


> 1. But doesn't the constant 'energy' required by UAF and Searchlight, often to little effect, detract from the actual politics? 2Isn't it also the case that popular frontism with liberals and faith-based groups with essentially conservative values blunts any opportunities to advocate working-class orientated politics?
> 
> 3.To get a little bit reductive, don't slogans like 'vote anybody but the BNP' completely undermine the objective of working-class political representation? 4 And why talk about 'smashing' the BNP or the EDL when evidently UAF are not equipped to do either? Does this not give a false impression of UAF which ultimately acts counter-productively?
> 
> ...


1.  Given the particularly bad circumstances why are the fascists in Britain much smaller than they are in Europe?  Did not barking stoke etc 'mobilize' [see below] the anti fascist majority and win a battle?  And SWP, respect, tusc suggests you can try to do both.  [PS.  Personally I am not sure U and the SWP are correct about building and electoral alternative.]
2.  No.  The necessity for MASS activity is more limiting imo.  It means you cannot just run off attacking fascsist individuals.   [Hammer attack was a lie, but propganda for the fascists.]
3.  No, people are far more intelligent, and thinking everything is black and white.  They are quite aware of the difference between offensive and defensive political organization.
4.  No, I think people are more aware of nuance than you give them credit for.  And secondly, MASS activity opposition is the aim, not yet achieved.  If you want to legitimately attack the UAF, you need to ask why there aren't masses involved [except on the low level 'activity' of mass vote against the fascists.]
5.  Yes I've never experienced any sectarianism, except from the SWP.   The 'movement' is blameless.  You see, the SWP, IWCA, @ists etc etc all think they're right.  So they all do it.  
6. Ah yes, the inevitable apolitical conspiracy theory.  Again, the SWP, IWCA, @ists etc etc all think they're right.  So they all do it, jump to false conclusions that is.


----------



## Proper Tidy (May 8, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> 1.  Given the particularly bad circumstances why are the fascists in Britain much smaller than they are in Europe?  Did not barking stoke etc 'mobilize' [see below] the anti fascist majority and win a battle?  And SWP, respect, tusc suggests you can try to do both.  [PS.  Personally I am not sure U and the SWP are correct about building and electoral alternative.]
> 2.  No.  The necessity for MASS activity is more limiting imo.  It means you cannot just run off attacking fascsist individuals.   [Hammer attack was a lie, but propganda for the fascists.]
> 3.  No, people are far more intelligent, and thinking everything is black and white.  They are quite aware of the difference between offensive and defensive political organization.
> 4.  No, I think people are more aware of nuance than you give them credit for.  And secondly, MASS activity opposition is the aim, not yet achieved.  If you want to legitimately attack the UAF, you need to ask why there aren't masses involved [except on the low level 'activity' of mass vote against the fascists.]
> ...



Some very poor responses there.

1 - there are lots of reasons why political movements take shape in different ways in different countries - but then this one set fits all mentality is prevalent amongst the UAF so I'm not surprised. Firthermore, are the BNP significantly behind most European ultra-nationalist movements? No, they're not. Two MEP's, remember.

2 - I don't even know what you're rambling about there, or what the youtube video is supposed to illustrate. Trying to mobilise people with entirely different political convictions and therefore contradictory analyses of the causes of division and the far right into one movement is plain stupid. Mobilising different groups & individuals opposed to the far right for an event; fine. Bringing everybody in to one group together is doomed. How can you provide any coherent political argument? You can't, which is why everything gets reduced to 'racism bad' and 'Vote anybody but the BNP', which brings me on to...

3 - again, what? None of what you say has anything to do with the complete idiocy of the slogan 'Vote anybody but the BNP'. Why people fucked off enough with the political mainstream and with the economic consensus of the parties to vote BNP would ever be won over by being commanded to 'Vote anybody but the BNP' by some funny speakers at a pop concert, I'll never understand.

4 - what you appear to be saying here and for number 3 is - people aren't stupid enough to take what we're saying at face value. So why fucking say it?

5 - Yes, people and organisations can be sectarian. UAF are particularly and commonly regarded as particularly venomous and hostile towards, well, everybody. If you're involved with UAF then you will be all too aware of plenty of examples, as we all are. Answer the point instead of deflecting the charge because it won't fool anybody.

6 - it isn't a conspiracy theory, and again you are trying to dismiss criticism without actually answering it. Many unions do indeed out-source anti-fascism to the UAF, because it abdicates them actually doing anything themselves; and UAF very aggressively look to maintain their market share. If you come to a different conclusion as to why UAF do this then by all means spit it out.


----------



## butchersapron (May 8, 2010)

There's a reason other commentators on the BNP  largely ignore this poster PT.


----------



## Proper Tidy (May 8, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> There's a reason other commentators on the BNP  largely ignore this poster PT.



Yeah I think I'll take your advice there


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 9, 2010)

Proper Tidy said:


> I think you are correct here, although I do think you conflate 'trot' with 'a certain brand of trot'!



You're right. I should say "Swappie" for clarity's sake.


----------



## TremulousTetra (May 9, 2010)

Proper Tidy said:


> Trying to mobilise people with entirely different political convictions and therefore contradictory analyses of the causes of division and the far right into one movement is plain stupid. Mobilising different groups & individuals opposed to the far right for an event; fine. Bringing everybody in to one group together is doomed. How can you provide any coherent political argument? You can't, which is why everything gets reduced to 'racism bad' and 'Vote anybody but the BNP', which brings me on to...


 [irony>] I know how do the facsists mobilise people with entirely different political convictions and therefore contradictory analyses of the causes of 'sick Britain' into one movement with the single slogan 'It's All the immigrants fault'?   Just look at their politics and support, labour supporters, conservatives, ukip,,,,,, etc.

UAF doesn’t need a coherent political message, because it isn’t a political movement.  the UAF is a single issue campaign to,,,,>



> 3 - again, what? None of what you say has anything to do with the complete idiocy of the slogan 'Vote anybody but the BNP'. Why people fucked off enough with the political mainstream and with the economic consensus of the parties to vote BNP would ever be won over by being commanded to 'Vote anybody but the BNP' by some funny speakers at a pop concert, I'll never understand.


 I don’t know how many times I have to explain this to people.
The vote in barking for the fascist remained the same.  What changed was those who are opposed to fascism did something.  The target audience/aim of the UAF,,,  IS NOT, IS NOT, IS NOT to convince the racsist, the nationalist’s, the people fucked off enough with the political mainstream and with the economic consensus of the parties to vote BNP, etc.  The target is the anti fascist majority, the aim is to get the anti fascist majority to be an active mass physical barrier by any means necessary, to everything that fascists do.
This anti fascist movement theUAF, is about winning battles with the fascists, not the war.  The war, and winning of the people fucked off enough with the political mainstream and with the economic consensus of the parties, can ONLY be won by producing an alternative to  the political mainstream and the economic consensus.  An alternative which puts the destiny of the people fucked off enough with the political mainstream and with the economic consensus of the parties, in their hands.



> 4 - what you appear to be saying here and for number 3 is - people aren't stupid enough to take what we're saying at face value. So why fucking say it?


 I said nothing of the sort.  You don’t even understand the logic of that you are attacking.



> 5 - Yes, people and organisations can be sectarian. UAF are particularly and commonly regarded as particularly venomous and hostile towards, well, everybody. If you're involved with UAF then you will be all too aware of plenty of examples, as we all are. Answer the point instead of deflecting the charge because it won't fool anybody.


 couldn’t give a fook about fooling anybody.  I say why I think.



> 6 - it isn't a conspiracy theory, and again you are trying to dismiss criticism without actually answering it. Many unions do indeed out-source anti-fascism to the UAF, because it abdicates them actually doing anything themselves; and UAF very aggressively look to maintain their market share. If you come to a different conclusion as to why UAF do this then by all means spit it out.


 this isn’t criticism 





> It is difficult not to come to the conclusion that UAF are primarily motivated by self-promotion and obtaining as large a market share of the movement as possible; which in turn leads to their attitude towards popular-frontism, rather than any honest conviction about the need to mobilise all sections of society opposed to fascism. As for why UAF are obsessed with their brand dominating the movement, often to the expense of the movement - well, it can only be assumed that they are motivated by access to trade union funding and/or promotion of SWP.


 it is apolitical stupidity.  It is obvious the SWP is genuinely interested in creating socialism, and opposing fascism, the genuine debate is about whether they apply the correct tactics to achieve this aim.  The debate your clearly not interested in, preferring your partisan Puritanism.


----------



## AKA pseudonym (May 10, 2010)

plenty of shits n giggles over at scumfront re simon bennett...

ouch


I hope others are taking screenshots.......


----------



## AKA pseudonym (May 10, 2010)

> plenty of shits n giggles over at scumfront re simon bennett...
> 
> ouch
> 
> ...



just in case from simon:




> I.. intended to, but Griffin and Dowson made a move to seize control of it on May 4th / 5th and also download all my work from my server rather than pay for it. The domain name and main website SQL were never an issue, they were offered up on a plate several times. Arthur Kemp threatened me and then started downloading the lot so I booted him off.
> 
> They did grab control of the domain by force (even though I was offering it on a plate with salad garnish) and proceeded to **** up the DNS and new server. They pointed the domain to the new server that did not have a bloody website on it. They made such a mess of the DNS the domain didn't know where to point and ended up pointing between their server and mine at random!
> 
> ...



doncha just love nazis squabbling with handbags


----------



## The39thStep (May 10, 2010)

AKA pseudonym said:


> just in case from simon:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Providing you remember that Stormfront contributers are mainly fantasists outside of the BNP or antifascists posing as fantasists outside of the BNP


----------



## audiotech (May 10, 2010)

Proper Tidy said:


> I'm interested...



'Ger orf your arse'.


----------



## The Black Hand (May 14, 2010)

More Autonomous Anti Fascism here, this time Nottingham activities;

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2010/05/451072.html


----------



## The Black Hand (Jun 21, 2010)

Conviction of Liverpool BNP activist;

http://www.permanentrevolution.net/entry/3070


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 21, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> More Autonomous Anti Fascism here, this time Nottingham activities;
> 
> http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2010/05/451072.html



lets do the time warp again


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 21, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> More Autonomous Anti Fascism here, this time Nottingham activities;
> 
> http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2010/05/451072.html


i see your production skills are improving


----------



## The Black Hand (Jun 22, 2010)

The39thStep said:


> lets do the time warp again




Quite - it took you over a month to reply to that post.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jun 22, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


> i see your production skills are improving



 It is nothing to do with me, although I appreciate attempts at authentic independence, or in short, *autonomy*... 

Although I think I do know who is doing it


----------



## The Black Hand (Jun 28, 2010)

BNP successor for Griffin?

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-st...-his-daughter-to-replace-him-115875-22363324/


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 28, 2010)

Unlikely - more likely is the mirror being led by the nose by you know who. Shit stirring I expect. Not beyond the realms of possibility but very unlikely for reasons of the response it would provoke, hence the story. Griffin has far more serious people to attempt to back seat drive through. (I don't expect to see him stand down anyway).

(in fact it appears Gary Anderson is the dedicated conduit - almost every story searchlight fed them has his byline)


----------



## revlon (Jun 28, 2010)

griffin's made furious denials on the front page of the bnp website.

Interesting article too above it, National Communications Officer telling the party faithful:



> “The entire BNP machine, all party departments and staff members, all regions and branches, are going to be directed in unison towards our number one goal: winning elections.
> 
> “This is a welcome step in the right direction”



is this a change of direction from the previous grassroots organising, or just a bit of fresh meat thrown to the 'super activists'?


----------



## FreddyB (Jul 5, 2010)

Simon Darby has resigned for the good of the party - he's saying that deputy leader is a meaningless role created when Griffin thought he was going to jail. 

Statement here http://derbypatriot.blogspot.<insert com here>/2010/07/simon-darby-resigns.html

Craig Pond a Stoke BNP member was interviewed by Pits n Pots today, and he has some other ideas about internal problems in the BNP. Essentially he's saying the grass roots of the party aren't happy with the PC direction the party is going in. I've no idea how representitive of the grass roots he really is.

http://pitsnpots.co.uk/news/2010/07/view-future-direction-bnp-stoke-trent-member


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 5, 2010)

The BNP are in a post election impasse.They were swamped as were other parties outside the big three by the large turn out.Whilst the press and Searchlight focus is always on squabbles locally they have been stepping up their activity leafletting on saturdays against the war and for making St Georges Day a national holiday.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Jul 6, 2010)

The39thStep said:


> The BNP are in a post election impasse.They were swamped as were other parties outside the big three by the large turn out.Whilst the press and Searchlight focus is always on squabbles locally they have been stepping up their activity leafletting on saturdays against the war and for making St Georges Day a national holiday.



Like other small to medium size parties they wont get much without lots of graft on the ground and election fighting expertise that they tend not to have.

Also, if there is a vote on AV on the same day as the next locals, as looks very possible, this will again be to the disadvantage of smaller parties.

With the tories talking about caps on inward migration the fascist party could be facing some dog days with only the EDL muppets left to look like a vigourous flag waver for the loon cause.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 6, 2010)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Like other small to medium size parties they wont get much without lots of graft on the ground and election fighting expertise that they tend not to have.
> 
> Also, if there is a vote on AV on the same day as the next locals, as looks very possible, this will again be to the disadvantage of smaller parties.
> 
> With the tories talking about caps on inward migration the fascist party could be facing some dog days with only the EDL muppets left to look like a vigourous flag waver for the loon cause.



Yes, looks like a re run of the late seventies early 80s with the far right collapsing internally with their vote collapse. Will history repeat itself, first as tragedy and now as farce? Or is it all a 'to be expected' farce for any serious political commentator


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 6, 2010)

Except the NF vote collapsed in the 70s and  the BNP vote didn't collapse in the 2010 elections. The BNP  actually have a lot more to say and a better way of saying it than 'If they are  black send them back', which was the main NF chant.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 6, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> Yes, looks like a re run of the late seventies early 80s with the far right collapsing internally with their vote collapse. Will history repeat itself, first as tragedy and now as farce? Or is it all a 'to be expected' farce for any serious political commentator






			
				the black hand's pamphlet about anti-fascism said:
			
		

> to leave error unrefuted is to encourage intellectual immorality


tbh: you know the bnp's vote didn't collapse - less of your 'intellectual immorality' pls

not to mention your predilection for quoting the bible


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 6, 2010)

There was no collapse -  that's what's going to define pro--working class anti-fascist approaches for the next 10 years. The opposite is going to define searchlight/uaf/tbh for next 10 years.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 8, 2010)

Two byelections with the BNP standing today although I expect the Labour vote to do better now they are the official opposition nationally


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 8, 2010)

Barnbrook won his appeal against suspension earlier this week - got an early chance to get his council seat back tonight as well.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 9, 2010)

BNP polled 34% in Goresbrook and finished second.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 9, 2010)

Up 7%. I had a feeling labour vote might not turn out so close to last time. Obv wrong.


----------



## glenquagmire (Jul 9, 2010)

UNISON rightwinger but working class and local so was always favourite.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 9, 2010)

Yeah, they went up 2% as well. Not as much as the labour candidate in Blaneau Gwent who went up _by 40%_ to 70%.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 9, 2010)

The39thStep said:


> Except the NF vote collapsed in the 70s and  the BNP vote didn't collapse in the 2010 elections. The BNP  actually have a lot more to say and a better way of saying it than 'If they are  black send them back', which was the main NF chant.





Pickman's model said:


> tbh: you know the bnp's vote didn't collapse - less of your 'intellectual immorality' pls
> 
> not to mention your predilection for quoting the bible




The BNP vote could well collapse when the class war heats up. Of course it is not the same as the seventies but the social forces are certainly lining up in such a way that the BNP vote will be squeezed and decline. That is my predicition anyway. You all seem to be saying the opposite, so let history be the judge in 4 years time


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 9, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> The BNP vote could well collapse when the class war heats up. *Of course it is not the same as the seventies *but the social forces are certainly lining up in such a way that the BNP vote will be squeezed and decline. That is my predicition anyway. You all seem to be saying the opposite, so let history be the judge in 4 years time



That's right you said earlier that it was a re run of the 80s. Are their several posters using TBH as multiple users?


----------



## Joe Reilly (Jul 9, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> ...let history be the judge in 4 years time



History is already the judge - over the 4 years past. And the 4 years before that...


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 10, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> The BNP vote could well collapse when the class war heats up. Of course it is not the same as the seventies but the social forces are certainly lining up in such a way that the BNP vote will be squeezed and decline. That is my predicition anyway. You all seem to be saying the opposite, so let history be the judge in 4 years time


history won't absolve you.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 12, 2010)

The39thStep said:


> That's right you said earlier that it was a re run of the 80s. Are their several posters using TBH as multiple users?



I said this dimwit; "looks like a re run of the late seventies early 80s with the far right collapsing internally with their vote collapse" go and check.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 12, 2010)

Joe Reilly said:


> History is already the judge - over the 4 years past. And the 4 years before that...



Yup, I am fine with everything I have done, every statement and judgement, no regrets I have made a good contribution thanks. The 4 years in question in this case is whether the BNP vote is going to go up or down, that test we can come back to easily. 

You haven't proved anything at all so far


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 12, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


> history won't absolve you.



"Don't give a toss what you think, I know your views they fucking stink"

(anybody recognise this quote?)


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 12, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> "Don't give a toss what you think, I know your views they fucking stink"
> 
> (anybody recognise this quote?)


anyone with money to waste can find out your views, by buying mayday or your "cl@ss war classix" - at least the ones you've written. but the few people who do hand over their hard earned cash may be disappointed by them. from your 'anti-fascist special':






			
				tbh said:
			
		

> It is important to try to break anti fascism and politics as a whole out of its 'ghettoised' sectarian, closed, predictable and reductionist forms. ... It is through anti fascism as a model of working class liberation and struggle that progress can be made.


so. on the one hand anti-fascism is fucked unless it can be made an attractive proposition, on the other hand it is a model for the working class to follow. but you can't have it both ways, tbh.

in your article 'autonomous anti fascism - towards praxis', you look - briefly - at a couple of attempts at defining fascism, and utterly ignore prominent recent analyses. there's no mention of paxton's book 'the anatomy of fascism'. there's no mention of the work of nigel copsey or matthew goodwin. indeed, there's no understanding of the essential core of contemporary british fascism, which is less its descent from mosley's british union of fascists and union movement, and more the league of empire loyalists / national front strand. you won't understand the bnp unless you realise that griffin has surrounded himself with a coterie of people from the 1950s and '60s - john bean and lance stewart - and from his nf days. 

if i was marking your pseudo-academic 'autonomous anti fascism - towards praxis' it would receive something like 55%: and that would be generous. the absence of anything written after 2006 - and the inadequate analysis of what you do quote - makes this a risible effort. why hasn't it been updated since you first published it to almost universal (among those who actually read it) disdain? it certainly hasn't stood the test of time! the pitiful conclusion






			
				tbh said:
			
		

> Conclusion
> 
> It has been suggested that anti fascist struggles epitomise the problems with the British left, and that existing practice against fascists is jeopardised by this sectarianism and lack of critical thinking. The range of anti fascist approaches has been described, social conditions identified, and a potential way forward that utilises these insights has been postulated. All that remains is now praxis.


it's something a first-year undergraduate should be ashamed of. 

if you'd bothered to involve yourself in anti-fascism while you were in class war, or if you'd bothered doing anything bar writing utter wank since you were expelled, perhaps there might be something to your poor analysis - at the least it would be better informed. the famous proverb says 'if at first you don't succeed, try, try again'. now you've tried and tried, perhaps it's time to simply give it a rest.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 13, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


> Originally Posted by tbh
> It is important to try to break anti fascism and politics as a whole out of its 'ghettoised' sectarian, closed, predictable and reductionist forms. ... It is through anti fascism as a model of working class liberation and struggle that progress can be made.
> 
> so. on the one hand anti-fascism is fucked unless it can be made an attractive proposition, on the other hand it is a model for the working class to follow. but you can't have it both ways, tbh.



Your attempts to look big are embarrassing (you need a Phd). Your attempt to break up that quote is pure 100% bollox, as well as a total misunderstanding. The point is not that the working class follow, but that they DO as part of 'anti fascism as a model of working class liberation and struggle'. There are 2 constructions that flow, they are part of the same thing (a critique and a proposal) and not different as you limply try to argue. And to answer you, yes, 'we want the world and we want it now'.

Go back to skool tosser.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 13, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> Your attempts to look big are embarrassing (you need a Phd). Your attempt to break up that quote is pure 100% bollox, as well as a total misunderstanding. The point is not that the working class follow, but that they DO as part of 'anti fascism as a model of working class liberation and struggle'. There are 2 constructions that flow, they are part of the same thing (a critique and a proposal) and not different as you limply try to argue. And to answer you, yes, 'we want the world and we want it now'.
> 
> Go back to skool tosser.


If you're saying that you need a PhD to understand your argument, then that demonstrates the irrelevance of your approach straightaway. I would happily type away and show what's in the intervening sentences of that paragraph: however, the first sentence and the conclusion you draw are somewhat at odds. When I said 'for the working class to follow' I clearly meant 'follow' as in follow a diagram, not follow as in follow a leader. You're setting anti-fascism up as a paradigm of working class liberation - considering the current state of anti-fascism, that is utter bilge.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 13, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


> If you're saying that you need a PhD to understand your argument, then that demonstrates the irrelevance of your approach straightaway. I would happily type away and show what's in the intervening sentences of that paragraph: however, the first sentence and the conclusion you draw are somewhat at odds. When I said 'for the working class to follow' I clearly meant 'follow' as in follow a diagram, not follow as in follow a leader. You're setting anti-fascism up as a paradigm of working class liberation - considering the current state of anti-fascism, that is utter bilge.



U r jus  a  bullshitter. 

AS I said earlier; "Don't give a toss what you think, I know your views they fucking stink"

(anybody recognise this quote?)" 

Tosser. You need  a life & badly. DO you ever do anything?


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Jul 13, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> AS I said earlier; "Don't give a toss what you think, I know your views they fucking stink"



Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells.

Louis MacNeice


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 13, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> (anybody recognise this quote?)"
> 
> Tosser. You need  a life & badly. DO you ever do anything?



I recognise *that* quote as one many people have asked you over the years.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 14, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> U r jus  a  bullshitter.
> 
> AS I said earlier; "Don't give a toss what you think, I know your views they fucking stink"
> 
> ...


TBH

Change the fucking record. Everyone's seen your new clothes, and they're not from Marks & Spencer, they're the emperor's.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 14, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> I recognise *that* quote as one many people have asked you over the years.




Au contraire, it was me who originated it and aimed at the ultra left tossers on here. Luckily the evidence is there and on my side


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 14, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


> TBH
> 
> Change the fucking record. Everyone's seen your new clothes, and they're not from Marks & Spencer, they're the emperor's.



Wanker


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 14, 2010)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells.
> 
> Louis MacNeice



Not a bad try, quite a way off still however.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 14, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> Au contraire, it was me who originated it and aimed at the ultra left tossers on here. Luckily the evidence is there and on my side



Does that change the fact that "Tosser. You need a life & badly. DO you ever do anything?" is an oft-repeated sentiment addressed to you?

hardly.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 14, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> Does that change the fact that "Tosser. You need a life & badly. DO you ever do anything?" is an oft-repeated sentiment addressed to you?
> 
> hardly.



Rubbish, thats your fantasy. Go find it and prove it.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 14, 2010)

Look at the great new website

http://mayday-magazine.com/


----------



## Davo1 (Jul 14, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> Look at the great new website
> 
> http://mayday-magazine.com/




OMG /Wot a bitch! (etc):



> There are those ‘melancholy realists’ too, who never escape from bulletin boards, who write nothing which is published, nor do they participate in any serious politics beyond the web, who police the rest of contributors with their self appointed and self referential holier than thou attitudes. Their ultra leftism paralyses them into inaction. They must be; got around, ignored, or usurped, if politics is to develop more naturally in the 21st century.



 +  +


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 14, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> Rubbish, thats your fantasy. Go find it and prove it.


It's not a fantasy, it's the (sad, for you) reality of what people feel after they've attempted engaging with you.
As for "proving" it, I'm not talking about instances on the web, I'm talking about how people react after they've met you in person.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 14, 2010)

Davo1 said:


> OMG /Wot a bitch! (etc):
> 
> 
> 
> +  +



Oh, the ironing!!!


----------



## The Black Hand (Jul 14, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> It's not a fantasy, it's the (sad, for you) reality of what people feel after they've attempted engaging with you.
> As for "proving" it, I'm not talking about instances on the web, I'm talking about how people react after they've met you in person.



Give over halfwit. Even Pickman has said 'people like TBH in person'.

Youse lot strut around on here like a load of bullies, same old same old ultra left... No wonder you're the irrelevant _never have been never will be's_...


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## AKA pseudonym (Jul 14, 2010)

better craic observing the leadership challenge in all fairness via scumf and other venues than the trolling here....


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## Louis MacNeice (Jul 15, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> Not a bad try, quite a way off still however.



Spot on actually, and the fact that you're quoting Mr Culmer is very very sad.

Louis MacNeice


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## The Black Hand (Jul 15, 2010)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Spot on actually, and the fact that you're quoting Mr Culmer is very very sad.
> 
> Louis MacNeice



No sorry, I was not thinking about him cos he's not on my radar at all. 

I was thinking ANL that's the Anti Nowhere League - i used to like them when I was younger;

http://www.actionext.com/names_a/anti_nowhere_league_lyrics/were_the_league.html


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## Louis MacNeice (Jul 15, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> No sorry, I was not thinking about him cos he's not on my radar at all.
> 
> I was thinking ANL that's the Anti Nowhere League - i used to like them when I was younger;
> 
> http://www.actionext.com/names_a/anti_nowhere_league_lyrics/were_the_league.html



You prize twit! Nick Culmer aka Animal from Tunbridge Wells. As I said very very sad that a man of your years and learning should be quoting a fifth rate fag end of punk act.

Louis (spot on) Macneice


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## The Black Hand (Jul 15, 2010)

Louis MacNeice said:


> You prize twit! Nick Culmer aka Animal from Tunbridge Wells. As I said very very sad that a man of your years and learning should be quoting a fifth rate fag end of punk act.
> 
> Louis (spot on) Macneice



The Not bothered Black Hand - I left that behind long ago and care even less about his name. The sad bit is that you knew who he was


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## Pickman's model (Jul 18, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> Give over halfwit. Even Pickman has said 'people like TBH in person'.


 and then they find it hard to reconcile your rather different behaviour on the internet with the impression they had formed in person.

the number of people up for working with you has dwindled considerably over the past decade, to the point that the supporters of your projects could comfortably fit into one of the snugs in holloway's coronet.


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## The Black Hand (Jul 19, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


> and then they find it hard to reconcile your rather different behaviour on the internet with the impression they had formed in person.
> 
> the number of people up for working with you has dwindled considerably over the past decade, to the point that the supporters of your projects could comfortably fit into one of the snugs in holloway's coronet.



As the resident u75 shock jock I say what I like   AS for 'supporters of my projects', you delude yourself. The ultra left @'s were never interested anyway (limpcok etc), nor were the likes of IWCA. 'My projects' are doing very well thankyou as you ask, as Ian Bone indicated recently on his blog. I do not need nor want the London centred obsessives like you. Goodbye pickman,  our 'love affair' lasted nearly 20 years and parting is always sweet sorrow. I hope one day you will get over me, at this rate it doesnt look like you ever will.


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## Louis MacNeice (Jul 19, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> As the resident u75 shock jock I say what I like   AS for 'supporters of my projects', you delude yourself. The ultra left @'s were never interested anyway (limpcok etc), nor were the likes of IWCA. 'My projects' are doing very well thankyou as you ask, as Ian Bone indicated recently on his blog. I do not need nor want the London centred obsessives like you. Goodbye pickman,  our 'love affair' lasted nearly 20 years and parting is always sweet sorrow. I hope one day you will get over me, at this rate it doesnt look like you ever will.


 
So what?

Louis MacNeice


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## Pickman's model (Jul 19, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> As the resident u75 shock jock I say what I like   AS for 'supporters of my projects', you delude yourself. The ultra left @'s were never interested anyway (limpcok etc), nor were the likes of IWCA. 'My projects' are doing very well thankyou as you ask, as Ian Bone indicated recently on his blog. I do not need nor want the London centred obsessives like you. Goodbye pickman,  our 'love affair' lasted nearly 20 years and parting is always sweet sorrow. I hope one day you will get over me, at this rate it doesnt look like you ever will.


it was very kind of ian to give you such a plug. however i believe that in this instance he is in something of a minority.


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## The Black Hand (Jul 19, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


> it was very kind of ian to give you such a plug. however i believe that in this instance he is in something of a minority.


 
Martin Wright too, the founders of Class War no less The people who matter to me anyway. And there are lots more...

You and the others london obsessed/centred fools are irrelevant.

This pathetic tit for tat you periodically start so you can convince yourself you are doing the right thing. Well done. Now do something relevant and interesting for a change, and do tell us what it is cos at the minute you look like an obsessed one trick pony.


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## butchersapron (Jul 19, 2010)

Did you ever find your hand in the snow?


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## butchersapron (Jul 19, 2010)

Louis MacNeice said:


> So what?
> 
> Louis MacNeice


 
Too subtle.


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## Pickman's model (Jul 19, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> Martin Wright too, the founders of Class War no less The people who matter to me anyway. And there are lots more...
> 
> You and the others london obsessed/centred fools are irrelevant.
> 
> This pathetic tit for tat you periodically start so you can convince yourself you are doing the right thing. Well done. Now do something relevant and interesting for a change, and do tell us what it is cos at the minute you look like an obsessed one trick pony.


i can't recall martin ever mentioning your name.


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## The39thStep (Jul 19, 2010)

Since when has being name checked on the Malcolm McClaren of anarchism's blog ever been a hallmark of a successful project.


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## Random (Jul 19, 2010)

TBH loves namedropping and the feeling of being 'in with the big boys'. A bit sad, really - a supposed anarchist and proponent of autonomous worling class action being so happy about the approval of Great Men.


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## The Black Hand (Jul 19, 2010)

The gaggle of bullies show up again. Well done. (handclap icon etc).


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## The Black Hand (Jul 19, 2010)

Louis MacNeice said:


> So what?
> 
> Louis MacNeice


 
Buttout butt hed - i was talking to Picky.


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## The Black Hand (Jul 19, 2010)

Random said:


> TBH loves namedropping and the feeling of being 'in with the big boys'. A bit sad, really - a supposed anarchist and proponent of autonomous worling class action being so happy about the approval of Great Men.



U 'never have been never will be' dorks never got what CW was really about. As it goes, I have politically worked with Ian for some time, I like his stuff, I respect the man and I wouldn't cross him. That is political solidarity my friends, something you lot do not seem to get. You lot, with the exception of Pickman I have never worked with and owe nothing to. What Pickman did I regard as treachery as I treated him as a friend. Not any more, that was a mistake I learned from.


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## The Black Hand (Jul 19, 2010)

Back to the thread title - is this the end of the BNP?

http://bristol.indymedia.org/article/692744?&condense_comments=false#comment48977


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 20, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


> i can't recall martin ever mentioning your name.


 
Think back to names prefixed with the words "that twat...".


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 20, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> The gaggle of bullies show up again. Well done. (handclap icon etc).


 
Bullies? 
You're fucking kidding!


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## The39thStep (Jul 20, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> Back to the thread title - is this the end of the BNP?
> 
> http://bristol.indymedia.org/article/692744?&condense_comments=false#comment48977



Article removed due to breaching editorial policy or something .However a great announcement for a picket of a Johnny Rotten gig. These people know where its at.


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## Louis MacNeice (Jul 20, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> Buttout butt hed - i was talking to Picky.


 






Here comes the judge.

Louis MacNeice


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## Pickman's model (Jul 20, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> U 'never have been never will be' dorks never got what CW was really about. As it goes, I have politically worked with Ian for some time, I like his stuff, I respect the man and I wouldn't cross him. That is political solidarity my friends, something you lot do not seem to get. You lot, with the exception of Pickman I have never worked with and owe nothing to. What Pickman did I regard as treachery as I treated him as a friend. Not any more, that was a mistake I learned from.


i'm happy to hear you've learned from something.


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## Combustible (Jul 20, 2010)

It was this story wasn't it? Sounds like the BNP have paid Unilever something but the amount sounds like speculation.

http://www.marketingweek.co.uk/sect...h-national-party-to-its-knees/3016002.article


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## The39thStep (Jul 21, 2010)

Combustible said:


> It was this story wasn't it? Sounds like the BNP have paid Unilever something but the amount sounds like speculation.
> 
> http://www.marketingweek.co.uk/sect...h-national-party-to-its-knees/3016002.article



I assume this means that the multi internationals are not on the verge of calling in the fascist stormtroopers to rescue capitalism. has anyone let the EDL know as some posters on here think they are on standby.


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## audiotech (Jul 27, 2010)

Two videos indicating feelings against Griffin and those leading the campaign against his leadership of the BNP. The first includes Lawrence Rusteem who has some interesting things to say about his past:



Some members here have their say here about image, policy and presentation.


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## Pickman's model (Jul 28, 2010)

The39thStep said:


> the multi internationals


presumably trading on more than one planet


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## audiotech (Jul 29, 2010)

For the third time:



> The British National Party and the party’s Regional Accounting Unit were both granted an extension to the deadline for submitting their statements of accounts. Both have failed to deliver their accounts within the extended deadline so the party will be fined a minimum of £500 and the accounting unit will be fined a minimum £100, this figure will increase if the accounts are more than three months late.



Financial shenanigans?



> One of the sections of the new BNP constitution that Griffin slipped in without telling anyone states that all the party’s assets belong to the so-called Founders’ Association. That body is not defined in the constitution but it is understood to be all BNP members who joined before the new constitution came into effect in February and are still members. If the party does not own its assets, they cannot correctly be included in its accounts, which would greatly increase the party’s insolvency.



These BNP "founders" hoping its members will keep their heads firmly in the sand?



> ....although Dowson has raised unprecedented sums in donations, Griffin has been spending far more on madnesses such as using an image of Marmite on a BNP election broadcast, which attracted an injunction from Unilever, defending indefensible unfair dismissal claims from former employees and dragging out his response to the Equality Commission’s action over the party’s racist constitution to the extent that the legal costs are believed to be running at £300,000 so far.



Source:


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## audiotech (Aug 6, 2010)

BNP member, Shelly Rose speaking about her dodgy experiences in the party. The pressure grows against Griffin and Dowson it appears?


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## Proper Tidy (Aug 6, 2010)

Pretty sure she's Collett's other half


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## audiotech (Aug 6, 2010)

I was thinking where's Collett as I posted that?


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## Proper Tidy (Aug 6, 2010)

audiotech said:


> I was thinking where's Collett as I posted that?


 
Rumours about that he's had the boot again


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## The Black Hand (Aug 9, 2010)

Yes I think so. It was so long ago now I have forgotten what the whole content of that page was.



Combustible said:


> It was this story wasn't it? Sounds like the BNP have paid Unilever something but the amount sounds like speculation.
> 
> http://www.marketingweek.co.uk/sect...h-national-party-to-its-knees/3016002.article


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## Prince Rhyus (Aug 11, 2010)

http://raincoatoptimism.wordpress.com/2010/08/10/the-bnp-say-goodbye-to-lee-john-barnes/

BNP legal officer quits.


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## Proper Tidy (Aug 11, 2010)

Lee Barnes lol


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## elbows (Aug 11, 2010)

Another indymedia article suggesting BNP bankruptcy within 14 days.

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2010/08/456824.html

No proper sources for a lot of the numbers though.


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## Bakunin (Aug 12, 2010)

The wheels certainly seem to be coming off the BNP bandwagon, by the looks of things. Impending financial collapse, infighting, rival factions developing, all manner of different accusations being sprinkled around like confetti things don't look like getting any better in either the short or the long term.

I can't say I'm the slightest bit surprised about the financial problems that the BNP seems to be facing, nor that they seem to be having difficulty filing proper accounts and filing them on time. It has been suggested to me, more than once, that not only has Griffin been increasingly running the BNP as though it's his own personal fiefdom, he's also been repeatedly accused of using BNP party funds to finance a variety of personal ventures which, if true, would be extremely damaging if the finer details were to be made public.

E2A:

It seems that the leadership challenge has collapsed as no challenger could obtain enough supporters to force a vote (although the party constitution being heavily weighted in Griffin's favour, coupled with the number of anti-Griffin members who have been either suspended or expelled recently) doesn't make this that surprising.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-10929903

That said, if I were Griffin, I wouldn't be thinking that I was out of the woods yet, by any means. If the reports about the degree of internal infighting and the state of BNP finances are accurate, then the BNP may not yet be dead in the water, but it's days might well be numbered. The latest financial appeal from Griffin to BNP members and supporters has him begging them to donate as little as 50 pence which, coupled with the party's seemingly desperate money problems, suggests that the BNP is indeed pretty desperate for money.


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## The39thStep (Aug 12, 2010)

Bakunin said:


> The wheels certainly seem to be coming off the BNP bandwagon, by the looks of things. Impending financial collapse, infighting, rival factions developing, all manner of different accusations being sprinkled around like confetti things don't look like getting any better in either the short or the long term.
> 
> I can't say I'm the slightest bit surprised about the financial problems that the BNP seems to be facing, nor that they seem to be having difficulty filing proper accounts and filing them on time. It has been suggested to me, more than once, that not only has Griffin been increasingly running the BNP as though it's his own personal fiefdom, he's also been repeatedly accused of using BNP party funds to finance a variety of personal ventures which, if true, would be extremely damaging if the finer details were to be made public.
> 
> ...


 
How may times are we going to read that the wheels are falling off the BNP bandwagon due to internal leadership challenges and finance? It's wheeled out , mainly in the absence of any suggested political alternative, as the old BNP will someday be returning to the streets cobblers that was the standard chestnut a couple of years ago.

The fact that the challengers vote was so derisory says quite a bit about where the members loyalties actually are. The problem the BNP face is exactly the same as other oppositional parties and that is that Labour should  sweep up the opposition to the Con Dems.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 12, 2010)

The39thStep said:


> How may times are we going to read that the wheels are falling off the BNP bandwagon due to internal leadership challenges and finance? It's wheeled out , mainly in the absence of any suggested political alternative, as the old BNP will someday be returning to the streets cobblers that was the standard chestnut a couple of years ago.
> 
> The fact that the challengers vote was so derisory says quite a bit about where the members loyalties actually are. The problem the BNP face is exactly the same as other oppositional parties and that is that Labour should  sweep up the opposition to the Con Dems.


i don't get the impression that you have been following the leadership challenge story with the assiduity you imply. anyone who knows anything about the bnp constitution knows precisely how difficult it is to challenge nick griffin, let alone defeat him. there's an article in the current searchlight which highlights the mountain butler needed to climb. and it's not as though butler or the other candidates had the advantage nick griffin did of having access to the membership list. to turn your bit about support on its head, a total of 1236 out of the 4,200 possible nominators expressed a preference for one of the candidates: which means that more than 75% of those eligible chose not to support griffin. 

the issues for the bnp are how they deal with the internal issues facing them, whether butler's returned to favour or whether he and another load of disillusioned activists leave, and how they deal with the aftermath of griffin describing barking & dagenham - and london - as a lost cause, after national call-outs from january to may to garner support in barking. while the bnp's vote may have held up in barking, the way griffin faced defeat will doubtless leave a sour taste in the mouths of many of the bnp members who turned out on a number of weekends to support him, only to find that  - frankly - it was all a waste of time. surely barking being a lost cause would have been clear before setting foot in the borough, if that was the case, and the amount of time, energy and money (not to mention lies, in terms of jeffrey marshall of myrdle street, e1, saying he lived in barking & dagenham, and the suspicious number of people who claimed to live in richard barnbrook's house). griffin's reputation for infallibility is, i submit, rather dented by the fiasco.

it may be premature to write off the bnp because of leadership challenges, due to the hurdles i've alluded to. it is less premature to suggest that their financial position is not going to impact on their future performance. the amount of money shelled out by the party for the stupid marmite advert, and the continuing claims that the party is in hock to mr dowson: these are not signs of a party in rude financial health. the bnp will be with us for some time to come, but i think that if they couldn't crack it when there was the best part of a perfect storm in their favour indicate that less favourable times will see their attractiveness dwindle. i think they had their chance and they fluffed it, but the death of the bnp will be both lingering and bitter.


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## The39thStep (Aug 12, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


> i don't get the impression that you have been following the leadership challenge story with the assiduity you imply. anyone who knows anything about the bnp constitution knows precisely how difficult it is to challenge nick griffin, let alone defeat him. there's an article in the current searchlight which highlights the mountain butler needed to climb. and it's not as though butler or the other candidates had the advantage nick griffin did of having access to the membership list. to turn your bit about support on its head, a total of 1236 out of the 4,200 possible nominators expressed a preference for one of the candidates: which means that more than 75% of those eligible chose not to support griffin.
> 
> the issues for the bnp are how they deal with the internal issues facing them, whether butler's returned to favour or whether he and another load of disillusioned activists leave, and how they deal with the aftermath of griffin describing barking & dagenham - and london - as a lost cause, after national call-outs from january to may to garner support in barking. while the bnp's vote may have held up in barking, the way griffin faced defeat will doubtless leave a sour taste in the mouths of many of the bnp members who turned out on a number of weekends to support him, only to find that  - frankly - it was all a waste of time. surely barking being a lost cause would have been clear before setting foot in the borough, if that was the case, and the amount of time, energy and money (not to mention lies, in terms of jeffrey marshall of myrdle street, e1, saying he lived in barking & dagenham, and the suspicious number of people who claimed to live in richard barnbrook's house). griffin's reputation for infallibility is, i submit, rather dented by the fiasco.
> 
> it may be premature to write off the bnp because of leadership challenges, due to the hurdles i've alluded to. it is less premature to suggest that their financial position is not going to impact on their future performance. the amount of money shelled out by the party for the stupid marmite advert, and the continuing claims that the party is in hock to mr dowson: these are not signs of a party in rude financial health. the bnp will be with us for some time to come, but i think that if they couldn't crack it when there was the best part of a perfect storm in their favour indicate that less favourable times will see their attractiveness dwindle. i think they had their chance and they fluffed it, but the death of the bnp will be both lingering and bitter.



Sorry if i didn't give you the right impression.

Where I would disagree totally with you is how you start your second paragraph, your emphasis is that the issues for the BNP are somehow internal. they are not , the real issues are extrenal and how the BNP make political headway against Labour as the opposition to the Con Dems. The election showed that Labour effectively swallowed up opposition to the Tories and in the case of Barking it was not just national Searchlight  and UAF mobilisations but Labour government funding via Connecting Communities and Preventing Violent Extremism that asissted this. The Labour vote was a lot stronger than forcast .

I am not sure that any party let alone a small mainstream one is in good financial health and yes I agree that finances can restrict political achievement . I aslo agree with you  ,in contrast to other posters here who compared the BNP  with the NF in 1979, that any death of the BNP is likely to be lingering and bitter. However whilst BNP success may not be as spectacular as they were within the perfect storm that the storm is still with us and with the recession likely to get worse. Who will fare better as an alternative to labour, the BNP or the left and the anarchists?


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## butchersapron (Aug 13, 2010)

There is some good news for the BNP today though - the tories and lib-dems have scrapped the Migration Impacts Fund 'which was intended to support public services in areas experiencing high levels of migration'.


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## The Black Hand (Aug 13, 2010)

The39thStep said:


> A) The problem the BNP face is exactly the same as other oppositional parties and that is that Labour should  sweep up the opposition to the Con Dems.


 


The39thStep said:


> B) Who will fare better as an alternative to labour, the BNP or the left and the anarchists?


 
A) Janus face! Earlier there was a spat cos I said the BNP vote will decline, now you are agreeing with me!!
B) The left and the anarchists should do better than the BNP imho. Because there are far more able people on the left and anarchists who simply disengaged, they should come out of the woodwork now (and there are already signs of this). The BNP simply haven't got ANY able activists and they have nothing to say about large economic issues that can be of use to the working class, beyond the racist rhetoric which is going to have increasingly diminishing returns.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 13, 2010)

The39thStep said:


> Sorry if i didn't give you the right impression.
> 
> Where I would disagree totally with you is how you start your second paragraph, your emphasis is that the issues for the BNP are somehow internal. they are not , the real issues are extrenal and how the BNP make political headway against Labour as the opposition to the Con Dems. The election showed that Labour effectively swallowed up opposition to the Tories and in the case of Barking it was not just national Searchlight  and UAF mobilisations but Labour government funding via Connecting Communities and Preventing Violent Extremism that asissted this. The Labour vote was a lot stronger than forcast .
> 
> I am not sure that any party let alone a small mainstream one is in good financial health and yes I agree that finances can restrict political achievement . I aslo agree with you  ,in contrast to other posters here who compared the BNP  with the NF in 1979, that any death of the BNP is likely to be lingering and bitter. However whilst BNP success may not be as spectacular as they were within the perfect storm that the storm is still with us and with the recession likely to get worse. Who will fare better as an alternative to labour, the BNP or the left and the anarchists?


 
for the bnp to go forwards they have to address a range of internal issues, some of which i mentioned. the bnp can't make political headway until there is greater unity restored to the party, which given the bnp's constitution is likely to be once some dissidents have left.


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## audiotech (Aug 13, 2010)

Griffin tells his audience that '700 infested aids Africans are about to enter Rotherham' and a 'Muslin drugs Jihad is taking place here.


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## butchersapron (Aug 13, 2010)

Some interesting things from that vid: the emphasis on social housing, work, anti-cuts and anti-yuppies. I wonder if he'd take that line in areas of the BNP's 'other vote' - the traditional little englander middle class supporters. There's the wedge stuff for people to be working on.

On the leadership and internal stuff - appears as if he's _publicly_ taking a very soft line. I don't think Butler is the type to go to (total) war and destroy the last 10 years work either. The dissenters have no place else to go, nowhere serious anyway - either back to the headbnagers (might end up inside) or to th far right of the tories (far more likely, but they generally hate them as much as they hate everyone) - Griffin knows that, that they've nowhere to bolt off to, and he only needs sit tight for this to pass. It's the lesson from the tiny 'splits' (if you can call them that) from the last 5 years.

'Narcotics jihad'


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## audiotech (Aug 13, 2010)

Griffin all things to all people.

BNP want Jewish 'comrades' to fight Muslims.

http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/36790/bnp-want-jewish-comrades-fight-muslims


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## The39thStep (Aug 13, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


> for the bnp to go forwards they have to address a range of internal issues, some of which i mentioned. the bnp can't make political headway until there is greater unity restored to the party, which given the bnp's constitution is likely to be once some dissidents have left.




Why take the tradition of the cobweb and anarchist left of focussing on internal issues especially things like the constitution? Reminds me of some weights and measures commitee and obsessed with process and rules. Surely its political activity that impacts on internal structures that  creates the dynamic for change , and any  changes internally then contribute to further successful political activity.

I don't think I have ever come across a political organisation failing because its constitution was wrong , its normally ideas. 

The clip from Griffin at Tameside is far more informative and as has been commented where do these dissidents go? The NF isn't really a viable or secure organisation and the EDL apart from being a useful diversion to BNP recruitment is heading into a dead end.


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## The39thStep (Aug 13, 2010)

The same branch have been leafleting over in our town centre for four weeks on the trot. Period of repositioning and be interesting to see where the super activist branches emerge


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## Pickman's model (Aug 13, 2010)

The39thStep said:


> Why take the tradition of the cobweb and anarchist left of focussing on internal issues especially things like the constitution? Reminds me of some weights and measures commitee and obsessed with process and rules. Surely its political activity that impacts on internal structures that  creates the dynamic for change , and any  changes internally then contribute to further successful political activity.
> 
> I don't think I have ever come across a political organisation failing because its constitution was wrong , its normally ideas.
> 
> The clip from Griffin at Tameside is far more informative and as has been commented where do these dissidents go? The NF isn't really a viable or secure organisation and the EDL apart from being a useful diversion to BNP recruitment is heading into a dead end.


i would agree with you about most parties' constitutions. however, the bnp constitution has for some time been designed with the purpose in mind of nick griffin not suffering a coup. indeed, one of the points made by butler was that the constitution had been amended to strengthen griffin's position during the recent litigation with the equalities commission. 

i think that the question of the party's internal organisation is one which will run and run until griffin departs or someone manages to oust him. it's an issue which has resonance for members who cannot be advanced unless griffin says so. he can appoint and dismiss national officers. the advisory council has no teeth. if someone joins and does good work, there is no means for them to advance past the (relatively) local stage before they need griffin's approval to go further. for the majority of members, and activists, this is probably not a problem. for the people who will be the bnp's leadership in the future, however, it is. do the dissidents leave or do they hold their breath waiting for griffin? i think that the constitution sets quite clear bounds to the party's ability to perpetuate itself, as prospective leadership candidates are removed from positions of influence on griffin's say-so.


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## The39thStep (Aug 13, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


> i would agree with you about most parties' constitutions. however, the bnp constitution has for some time been designed with the purpose in mind of nick griffin not suffering a coup. indeed, one of the points made by butler was that the constitution had been amended to strengthen griffin's position during the recent litigation with the equalities commission.
> 
> i think that the question of the party's internal organisation is one which will run and run until griffin departs or someone manages to oust him. it's an issue which has resonance for members who cannot be advanced unless griffin says so. he can appoint and dismiss national officers. the advisory council has no teeth. if someone joins and does good work, there is no means for them to advance past the (relatively) local stage before they need griffin's approval to go further. for the majority of members, and activists, this is probably not a problem. for the people who will be the bnp's leadership in the future, however, it is. do the dissidents leave or do they hold their breath waiting for griffin? i think that the constitution sets quite clear bounds to the party's ability to perpetuate itself, as prospective leadership candidates are removed from positions of influence on griffin's say-so.



Sounds the same as the SWPs. Do WAG have a constitution?


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## The39thStep (Aug 13, 2010)

audiotech said:


> Griffin tells his audience that '700 infested aids Africans are about to enter Rotherham' and a 'Muslin drugs Jihad is taking place here.




As Butchers says there is far more than the issue of 700 infested Africans to what Griffin says. Starts with what a local BNP cllr is trying to do with regards housing and creating local jobs , has a go at the Tories broken promises and then illustrates how the EC prevents putting local people first. If they manage to get some consistency in how that story is delivered it will be a popular message.


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## audiotech (Aug 14, 2010)

The39thStep said:


> As Butchers says there is far more than the issue of 700 infested Africans to what Griffin says. Starts with what a local BNP cllr is trying to do with regards housing and creating local jobs , has a go at the Tories broken promises and then illustrates how the EC prevents putting local people first. If they manage to get some consistency in how that story is delivered it will be a popular message.



The pig farmer chooses his words well, but do you believe that the alleged former drug dealer and Griffin, as an MEP, are anyway interested in housing for local (white) people in Cockermouth (a place when I last visited that had little in the way of industry and jobs), or anywhere else for that matter?


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## stethoscope (Aug 14, 2010)

Apols if it's already been mentioned, noticed in the Guardian today that it is reporting:

BNP's London assembly man resigns whip.



> The British National party's sole representative on the London assembly has resigned the party whip amid speculation that the BNP is on the verge of unravelling.
> 
> Richard Barnbrook, who lost his Barking and Dagenham council seat earlier this year, is understood to have taken the decision in protest at the increasing tensions within the organisation, which has seen a series of spats between senior figures in the last few weeks.
> 
> ...


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Aug 15, 2010)

Ken Booth who has been around for years has been sacked as North East regional organiser...


----------



## audiotech (Aug 15, 2010)

Latest from Hope not Hate blog.



> The BNP’s financial mess seems to be attracting the attention of the authorities. Rumours are circulating that Nick Griffin was arrested and had to post bail in Bruges last week. It also seems that party Treasurer David Hannam has been questioned by police over the party's finances.
> 
> According to the BNP’s former webmaster, Simon Bennett, the BNP has been served by a winding up order by the accountants Deloitte LLP, acting as liquidator on behalf of HM Revenue and Customs, Allied Irish Bank and two other organisations.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 15, 2010)

audiotech said:


> Latest from Hope not Hate blog.


 
why would - could - he have been arrested in bruges, traditionally considered to be in belgium?


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## Proper Tidy (Aug 15, 2010)

Presumably in relation to EU money, if there is any truth in it at all


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## audiotech (Aug 15, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


> why would - could - he have been arrested in bruges, traditionally considered to be in belgium?



Some rumours about someone's visit to a brothel allegedly? Not sure who?


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## Pickman's model (Aug 15, 2010)

audiotech said:


> Some rumours about a visit to a brothel allegedly?


 
which if true would have eddie butler laughing till tears rolled down his face


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 15, 2010)

Proper Tidy said:


> Presumably in relation to EU money, if there is any truth in it at all


 
yeh, i'd have thought that griffin being nicked would be all over the news


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## butchersapron (Aug 15, 2010)

Edmonds was sacked at yesterdays AC meeting. I think Griffin may well be clearing out the stay-behind tyndallites as they're obv preparing to cause further trouble.


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## Spanky Longhorn (Aug 15, 2010)

I wonder what his fellow MEP Andrew Bron's plans are for the near future?


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## audiotech (Aug 15, 2010)

BNP "honours" Japan criminals who murdered Brit POW'S.


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## audiotech (Aug 16, 2010)




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## audiotech (Aug 16, 2010)

What's the news on the Wingfield's?


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## audiotech (Aug 16, 2010)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> I wonder what his fellow MEP Andrew Bron's plans are for the near future?


 
Setting up a branch of the death dealing militia of white supremacy perhaps?


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## audiotech (Aug 16, 2010)

BNP faces £500,000 cash crisis.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/2010/08/15/bnp-faces-500-000-cash-crisis-115875-22488508/


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## audiotech (Aug 19, 2010)

Another BNP Council member, this time with self-declared "principles" jumps ship.

http://www.watfordobserver.co.uk/news/8336174.BNP_councillor_quits_in_leadership_protest/


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## The39thStep (Aug 19, 2010)

Odds on/timescale for BNP demise?


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## Pickman's model (Aug 19, 2010)

The39thStep said:


> Odds on/timescale for BNP demise?


 
i think you're being a bit hasty. wouldn't be surprised if griffin left in the next year, but the quality isn't about to replace him as a credible leader. the people who do have leadership experience - brons and john bean - are no longer of an age to take over. eddie butler's had his chance. paul golding as leader wouldn't be too much of a shock. but as i've said before, the demise of the bnp will be lingering and bitter. it's this which may prompt a return by some elements of the membership to street activity, whether through the edl, nf, ena or some new organisation. however much of the bnp's membership is too old to really start kicking things off in the streets, as per recent report on london patriot website about bnp leafleters being attacked. much depends on what dowson and griffin do: but i think that they may have reached their peak. the continuing infighting in the party is unlikely to rapidly die away, hindering their chances in the next annual local elections. there will doubtless be some local successes off the back of effective canvassing and campaigning, but i believe the tide's starting to ebb. future events may of course render this prediction void: but as things are i would be surprised if they made more than narrow gains when next elections are held.


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## The39thStep (Aug 19, 2010)

I was asking Audiotech who seems to be in 'the end is nigh' /'one more nail in the coffin' mode  but I am always interested in your take. To me the biggest element in the wing clipping of the BNP is the New Labour defeat and the relative  lack of political space they now have as an alternative to Labour.What I find intersting is that it is not the 'antifascists' who have been responsible for their more limited horizon but by and large bougeious politics and the state.


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## Spanky Longhorn (Aug 19, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


> i think you're being a bit hasty. wouldn't be surprised if griffin left in the next year, but the quality isn't about to replace him as a credible leader. the people who do have leadership experience - brons and john bean - are no longer of an age to take over. eddie butler's had his chance. paul golding as leader wouldn't be too much of a shock. but as i've said before, the demise of the bnp will be lingering and bitter. it's this which may prompt a return by some elements of the membership to street activity, whether through the edl, nf, ena or some new organisation. however much of the bnp's membership is too old to really start kicking things off in the streets, as per recent report on london patriot website about bnp leafleters being attacked. much depends on what dowson and griffin do: but i think that they may have reached their peak. the continuing infighting in the party is unlikely to rapidly die away, hindering their chances in the next annual local elections. there will doubtless be some local successes off the back of effective canvassing and campaigning, but i believe the tide's starting to ebb. future events may of course render this prediction void: but as things are i would be surprised if they made more than narrow gains when next elections are held.


 
Spot on.

Nothing can be ruled out, and I wouldn't put it past the BNP to pull a rabbit out of the hat, or the mainstream parties to hand them a massive target which they could use to regain momentum, they could be left floundering and declining until the next Euro elections...

However they have created a long term space in serious British politics for a rightwing, explicitly racist populist party with significant working class support - that space is probably not going to be filled by the three big parties any time soon, and I don't think UKIP has got quite what it takes to fill the gap either, and the further right is a joke.


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## elbows (Aug 19, 2010)

So is there a fair chance that the BNPs financial troubles will kill the party and that a new party will end up being formed?


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## The39thStep (Aug 20, 2010)

A chance , not a fair chance , I wouldn't mark it as evens.


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## Spanky Longhorn (Aug 20, 2010)

The thing is, if they do wind the BNP up, then it would require a massive amount of work to get back to where they are now, getting people used to the new name, replacing the burnt out and disillousioned.

BNP is a brand with excellent recognition that sends out a clear signal, they're not going to ditch it if they can help it.


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## Bakunin (Aug 20, 2010)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> Spot on.
> 
> Nothing can be ruled out, and I wouldn't put it past the BNP to pull a rabbit out of the hat, or the mainstream parties to hand them a massive target which they could use to regain momentum, they could be left floundering and declining until the next Euro elections...
> 
> However they have created a long term space in serious British politics for a rightwing, explicitly racist populist party with significant working class support - that space is probably not going to be filled by the three big parties any time soon, and I don't think UKIP has got quite what it takes to fill the gap either, and the further right is a joke.


 
And I wouldn't think that Griffin will necessarily be willing to give up his personal fiefdom (and, if rumours are accurate, private piggy bank) unless he either is forced to or sees bigger game to hunt elsewhere, either.


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## audiotech (Aug 25, 2010)

The latest BNP summer school.


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## grogwilton (Aug 26, 2010)

Councillor in stoke leaves BNP for 'community voice' group: http://pitsnpots.co.uk/news/2010/08/ellie-walker-joins-community-voice-confirmed


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## Proper Tidy (Aug 26, 2010)

grogwilton said:


> Councillor in stoke leaves BNP for 'community voice' group: http://pitsnpots.co.uk/news/2010/08/ellie-walker-joins-community-voice-confirmed


 
Strange move - Community Voice is leftish. She must have done a good job of renouncing her BNP links.

What's her fella doing now?


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## Spanky Longhorn (Aug 26, 2010)

Hmm.
If we are to take this floor crossing at face value (and without knowing a great deal about Stoke other than what I've read, then I will) this is a really good coup for Community Voice, and could possibly demonstrate in practical terms how a left/progressive alternative can undermine the BNP.


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## butchersapron (Aug 26, 2010)

Stoke is full of small groups fighting - beware:


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## Spanky Longhorn (Aug 26, 2010)

That is a suspicious face to be fair, she looks like she is thinking about her next email to Nick Lowles...


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## Proper Tidy (Aug 26, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Stoke is full of small groups fighting - beware:


 
Do you know much about CV, Butchers?


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## butchersapron (Aug 26, 2010)

I do not - there is a person ideally  placed here and the public sociologist blog who should have more...


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## Spanky Longhorn (Aug 26, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> I do not - there is a person ideally  placed here and the public sociologist blog who should have more...



Is articul8 that fella?


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## Proper Tidy (Aug 26, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> I do not - there is a person ideally  placed here and the public sociologist blog who should have more...


 
Yeah, nothing on AVPS, know CV are involved in NorSCAF though.


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## butchersapron (Aug 26, 2010)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> Is articul8 that fella?


 Nope.


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## Spanky Longhorn (Aug 26, 2010)

Who is AVPS on here then? pm me if you don't want to say it publically, I'm nosy...


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## butchersapron (Aug 27, 2010)

Sorry, didn't mean he was on here (he might well be though). Meant there is a stoke based person who will know more _and_ AVPS will know more as well.


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## Spanky Longhorn (Aug 27, 2010)

Also I see she is Alby Walker's wife, I assume he is still sitting as a non aligned councillor? Certainly the Community voice website doesn't mention that she has any connection to him...


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## Proper Tidy (Aug 27, 2010)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> Also I see she is Alby Walker's wife, I assume he is still sitting as a non aligned councillor? Certainly the Community voice website doesn't mention that she has any connection to him...


 
He hasn't joined CV. Lost his council seat too I think.


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## The Black Hand (Aug 27, 2010)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> The thing is, if they do wind the BNP up, then it would require a massive amount of work to get back to where they are now, getting people used to the new name, replacing the burnt out and disillousioned.
> 
> [A] BNP is a brand with excellent recognition that sends out a clear signal, they're not going to ditch it if they can help it.


 


Bakunin said:


> And I wouldn't think that Griffin will necessarily be willing to give up his personal fiefdom (and, if rumours are accurate, *  private piggy bank) unless he either is forced to or sees bigger game to hunt elsewhere, either.*


*

[A] to be honest I do not think the BNP matters that much. They get 'brand recognition' (millions of pounds of FREE advertising) because the liberal media ALWAYS hype up the 'Nazi menace'. Contrary to belief the BNP did nothing original and had no original ideas either. The failure was always going to come, it was always a case of when rather than if.

 Griffins purse strings are the trail that needs to be looked at, and the others with their snouts in the trough. He will still want to be a big fish... The way he smiled with glee when he had minders protecting him says it all imho.*


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## audiotech (Aug 29, 2010)

As Griffin's Mother-in-Law states:



> Nick is still a racist. He still holds those views – always has. He wants to see an all-white Britain, but that will never happen…he’s living in the Dark Ages.





> ...she dismisses his pandering to white working-class voters as “laughable”.





> She says that he refused for years to get a “proper” job and put his Nazi-inspired dream of a racially-pure Britain ahead of his family.





> He pretends to be a man of the people, but the truth is he hasn’t done an honest day’s work in his life.



In her own words: 



> ...a deluded, fame-hungry pretender.



http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-st...t-who-lives-in-the-dark-ages-115875-21770809/


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## Spanky Longhorn (Aug 30, 2010)

Those quotes from the fat one eyed cunt's mum are years old?


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## Macullam (Aug 30, 2010)

Bye election in east cleveland. BNP got 33 votes. suprised this is a bit of a semi rural some might say backward type of area. No asian community though.


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## Spanky Longhorn (Aug 30, 2010)

Hmm, that one passed me by was it for the council or lower tier? I can't find owt on google... One of the Walkers (not Scott) is standing in an upcoming Spennymoor by-election be interesting to see how he does given that he is the great white hope for the North East.


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## Macullam (Aug 30, 2010)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> Hmm, that one passed me by was it for the council or lower tier? I can't find owt on google... One of the Walkers (not Scott) is standing in an upcoming Spennymoor by-election be interesting to see how he does given that he is the great white hope for the North East.


 
Looking at the numbers Labour won the seat with 500 + it looked like a full council seat. I wasnt aware of it and live locally.Brotton ward by-election, Redcar and Cleveland Council result, 26 August:
Lab 565
Ind 351
Lib Dem 315
Con 220
...bnp 33


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## The39thStep (Aug 31, 2010)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> Those quotes from the fat one eyed cunt's mum are years old?


 
Stopped clock syndrome


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## audiotech (Aug 31, 2010)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> Those quotes from the fat one eyed cunt's mum are years old?



Still relevant, tick, tock.


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## treelover (Sep 1, 2010)

> Hmm.
> If we are to take this floor crossing at face value (and without knowing a great deal about Stoke other than what I've read, then I will) this is a really good coup for Community Voice, and could possibly demonstrate in practical terms how a left/progressive alternative can undermine the BNP.




perhaps the answer to their success is in the group title, 'community voice' working on issues etc that affect the people they represent, not 'anti-imperialism, palestine, etc,


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## audiotech (Sep 1, 2010)

treelover said:


> perhaps the answer to their success is in the group title, 'community voice' working on issues etc that effect the people they represent, not 'anti-imperialism, palestine, etc,



The working class are global hence the term: 'think global, act local', otherwise you become a petty nationalist.


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## butchersapron (Sep 1, 2010)

Tell us how this is or should play out in relation to the BNP then? Being _effective_ isn't a question of internationaism vs nationalism ffs - it's a question of being relevant (or sometimes of being seen to be), directly and immediately.


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## The39thStep (Sep 2, 2010)

audiotech said:


> Still relevant, tick, tock.



I think stopped clocks are always right twice? Cliff used to say it


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## audiotech (Sep 2, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Tell us how this is or should play out in relation to the BNP then? Being _effective_ isn't a question of internationaism vs nationalism ffs - it's a question of being relevant (or sometimes of being seen to be), directly and immediately.



All depends on the presence of the BNP, if there is a BNP presence at all that is. There is no BNP to speak of here where I am. Some anti-immigrant feeling, which I deal with as and when. Some involvement in a tenant group, campaigning for affordable homes and fair rents,. Opposing the closure of community facilities, against privatisation etc. Workplace issues, trade union activity. Need I go on?


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## audiotech (Sep 2, 2010)

The39thStep said:


> I think stopped clocks are always right twice? Cliff used to say it



Cliff said and wrote a lot of things, some I verbally disagreed with him about when a SWP member.


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## Spanky Longhorn (Sep 2, 2010)

audiotech said:


> All depends on the presence of the BNP, if there is a BNP presence at all that is. There is no BNP to speak of here where I am. Some anti-immigrant feeling, which I deal with as and when. Some involvement in a tenant group, campaigning for affordable homes and fair rents,. Opposing the closure of community facilities, against privatisation etc. Workplace issues, trade union activity. Need I go on?


 
And what about areas where the BNP are present in some sort of visible form?


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## audiotech (Sep 2, 2010)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> And what about areas where the BNP are present in some sort of visible form?



Any near you? If so give the gist of how you deal with their presence? Mine in the late 70's, when the NF *were* about in the community I live in (not for long I might add), was to disrupt their meetings at every opportunity, leaflet local estates, call meetings, involve locals, interest youth in anti-racist music events, make links with other organisations and self-defence.


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## The39thStep (Sep 3, 2010)

audiotech said:


> Any near you? If so give the gist of how you deal with their presence? Mine in the late 70's, when the NF *were* about in the community I live in (not for long I might add), was to disrupt their meetings at every opportunity, leaflet local estates, call meetings, involve locals, interest youth in anti-racist music events, make links with other organisations and self-defence.



Why were those sort of tactics successful in the 70s and not now?


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## audiotech (Sep 3, 2010)

The39thStep said:


> Why were those sort of tactics successful in the 70s and not now?



Go on then get it out of your system.


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## The39thStep (Sep 3, 2010)

audiotech said:


> Go on then get it out of your system.


 
Look I agree that that sort of activism was at the time very successful in countering the NF in the 70s but I read your post as suggesting that they were equally applicable today.

There are two BNP members who live up the road from me and who drink in the same pubs as me. I can't avoid them and they can't avoid me.


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## audiotech (Sep 4, 2010)

The39thStep said:


> Look I agree that that sort of activism was at the time very successful in countering the NF in the 70s but I read your post as suggesting that they were equally applicable today.
> 
> There are two BNP members who live up the road from me and who drink in the same pubs as me. I can't avoid them and they can't avoid me.



and?


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## The39thStep (Sep 4, 2010)

audiotech said:


> and?


 
and try and have a go at answering the question why 70s anti NF tactics are not applicable today


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## audiotech (Sep 4, 2010)

The39thStep said:


> and try and have a go at answering the question why 70s anti NF tactics are not applicable today



Building a working class political alternative, which is one we both would like to see happen hasn’t managed much success so far, but we live in hope, mostly behind the haven of our keyboards.


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## The Black Hand (Sep 7, 2010)

Macullam said:


> Looking at the numbers Labour won the seat with 500 + it looked like a full council seat. I wasnt aware of it and live locally.Brotton ward by-election, Redcar and Cleveland Council result, 26 August:
> Lab 565
> Ind 351
> Lib Dem 315
> ...


 
This is a pathetic result, and good for everybody BUT the BNP.


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## The Black Hand (Sep 9, 2010)

The39thStep said:


> Look I agree that that sort of activism was at the time very successful in countering the NF in the 70s but I read your post as suggesting that they were equally applicable today.
> 
> There are two BNP members who live up the road from me and who drink in the same pubs as me. I can't avoid them and they can't avoid me.


 


audiotech said:


> and?



Audiotech is quite right here. You haven't demonstrated that the 70s are different from today with that example of 'living in the same streets' as that SURELY was the case in the 1970s with NF activists and other lefties...


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## The Black Hand (Sep 9, 2010)

The39thStep said:


> and try and have a go at answering the question why 70s anti NF tactics are not applicable today


 
Must there be any relationship between anti fascist tactics and defeating the NF? Didn't MAGGIE kill off the NF far more than anti fascists?
I'm not so sure you have to have a crystal clear line in a situtation where no group has enough people in different areas to gain the evidence necessary to say that 'this is the correct line of anti fascist advance'.
See here and the video from Cardiff - surely having vibrant people who can mobilise is far better than the dead end of arguing over 'perfect anti fascist theory'?
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/cardif...admit-kettling-on-protest-day-91466-27223055/


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## The39thStep (Sep 9, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> Must there be any relationship between anti fascist tactics and defeating the NF? Didn't MAGGIE kill off the NF far more than anti fascists?
> I'm not so sure you have to have a crystal clear line in a situtation where no group has enough people in different areas to gain the evidence necessary to say that 'this is the correct line of anti fascist advance'.
> See here and the video from Cardiff - surely having vibrant people who can mobilise is far better than the dead end of arguing over 'perfect anti fascist theory'?
> http://www.walesonline.co.uk/cardif...admit-kettling-on-protest-day-91466-27223055/



Well if there is no connection between anti facsist tacts and the defeat of them then why have them? 

And its a reasonable question to ask whether or not Thatcher had more of an impact on the demise of the NF than the Anti facsist did. I suspect that both had an impact but on different sections of their membership, needless to say that the street war against the fascists didn't end with Thatcher , it ended with AFA and because of that the the shift to a more European political model of fascism. The latter was a phenonema that most anti facsist couldn't cope with.

Re Cardiff  are you saying it was the level of vibrancy or the level of mobilisation which in your opinion is worth commenting on?


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## The Black Hand (Sep 10, 2010)

The39thStep said:


> A) Well if there is no connection between anti facsist tacts and the defeat of them then why have them?
> 
> B) And its a reasonable question to ask whether or not Thatcher had more of an impact on the demise of the NF than the Anti facsist did. I suspect that both had an impact but on different sections of their membership, needless to say that the street war against the fascists didn't end with Thatcher , it ended with AFA and because of that the the shift to a more European political model of fascism. The latter was a phenonema that most anti facsist couldn't cope with.
> 
> C) Re Cardiff  are you saying it was the level of vibrancy or the level of mobilisation which in your opinion is worth commenting on?



A) Quite, which is why it needs careful consideration, and placed carefully, without hyperbole, in its relevant struggle priority.

B) Yes I agree, but also related to (C) I think protest is the key to movement building and ultimately social change. I'm not talking about UAF clones here, but there are genuine people who want to protest against the BNP/EDL and how we learn to build a mass movement with these sorts of people is the important question.


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## The39thStep (Sep 14, 2010)

BNP got 21% in Spennymoor in Town Council elections last week


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## The39thStep (Sep 14, 2010)

Accordingto the BNP site they are steppng up their anti war activity with 90 different units taking part starting at the weekend. That is more activity than STWC at the moment?


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## Prince Rhyus (Sep 14, 2010)

What's your take on the HnH documentary on the Battle for Barking and Dagenham?

I quite like short documentaries like this - call me old fashioned but it's nice to see people getting together, campaigning on a given issue and being successful.


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## Jeff Robinson (Sep 15, 2010)

Who needs the BNP when you've got Phil Woolarse doing their dirty work for them?


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## Jeff Robinson (Sep 15, 2010)

W00larse should be be be be be be beheaded. IMO.


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## Spanky Longhorn (Sep 15, 2010)

He would make a perfect Libdem MP


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## IMR (Sep 17, 2010)

Prince Rhyus said:


> What's your take on the HnH documentary on the Battle for Barking and Dagenham?


 
Watching it I get a sense of why the campaign was successful in mobilising people who didn't like the BNP much to begin with, to get out and vote against them. Also why the BNP vote pretty much stayed the same.


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## The Black Hand (Sep 17, 2010)

They also got 7% too. It seems the 21% result in one of their strongholds is staying at a similar level. Bucking the national trend the LIb dem got elected (one poll put them on 8%), so things are not as simple as it seems...

Spennymoor TC, Middlestone
Thursday 09 September 2010 12:00

Lab 358 (59.0)
LD Edward Rhodes 202 (33.3)
BNP 47 (7.7)
Majority 156
Turnout 22.8%
Lab hold

0 Comments | Permalink 
Spennymoor TC, Spennymoor
Thursday 09 September 2010 12:00

LD Benjamin May Ord 494 (40.1)
Lab 422 (34.2)
BNP 264 (21.4)
Ind 53 (4.3)
Majority 72
Turnout 28.9%
LD gain from Lab


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## The39thStep (Sep 18, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> They also got 7% too. It seems the 21% result in one of their strongholds is staying at a similar level. Bucking the national trend the LIb dem got elected (one poll put them on 8%), so things are not as simple as it seems...
> 
> Spennymoor TC, Middlestone
> Thursday 09 September 2010 12:00
> ...


 
wasn't the 7% a a paper candidadte and the 21% where they ran a campaign?

How come Spennymoor is a 'stronghold'?


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## The Black Hand (Sep 18, 2010)

The39thStep said:


> wasn't the 7% a a paper candidadte and the 21% where they ran a campaign?
> 
> How come Spennymoor is a 'stronghold'?


 
 Their big cheeses live there - the Walker brothers. THe Solidarity PO box is registered in Spennymoor (or it was last time I checked etc). Speenymoor is also close to Chilton where there is some BNP agricultural property (they have proddie flute bands over) and they also employ migrant labour


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## TremulousTetra (Sep 23, 2010)

IMR said:


> Watching it I get a sense of why the campaign was successful in mobilising people who didn't like the BNP much to begin with, to get out and vote against them.


spot on!


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## frogwoman (Sep 25, 2010)

The39thStep said:


> Accordingto the BNP site they are steppng up their anti war activity with 90 different units taking part starting at the weekend. That is more activity than STWC at the moment?


 
yeah, but aren't stwc largely dead at the moment?


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## Pickman's model (Sep 25, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> yeah, but aren't stwc largely dead at the moment?


 
yeh. the stwc foolishly put their efforts in seven years ago.


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## TremulousTetra (Sep 30, 2010)

barnbrook expelled. discuss.


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## Proper Tidy (Sep 30, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> barnbrook expelled. discuss.


 
lol


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 30, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> barnbrook expelled. discuss.



Inevitable if you have been following the saga, he backed Eddie Butler in the election campaign, resigned the BNP whip. What did you expect?


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## Pickman's model (Oct 1, 2010)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> barnbrook expelled. discuss.


 
nice to see you leading by example.


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## butchersapron (Apr 10, 2011)

Back to the real stuff. Now the election candidates names have been listed it's time for Searchlight conduits like Mark Townsend to pimp their stuff before the elections. First out we have BNP election candidate arrested over Qur'an burning - don't know whether this was just personal idiocy but there have been clear signs of the BNP being a bit rattled by the EDL publicity and current focus on what was previously their ground - and a key one in the urban w/c areas.


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## redsquirrel (Apr 10, 2011)

What's offence has been arrested for? That article doesn't make it clear.
And the BBc isn't much better just calling it a "public order offence"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-east-wales-13028793


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## Pickman's model (Apr 10, 2011)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> barnbrook expelled. discuss.


 
fucking six months and you haven't managed to post any sort of discussion on the topick.


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Apr 10, 2011)

The BNP are by no means a dead party yet, but with their ongoing financial problems, defections of candidates and activists to the English Democrats, and Nick Griffin's chairmanship increasingly being seen as toxic by the rank and file (and not just by disgruntled "faces"), they'd need to pull something pretty big election-wise out of the bag to halt their continued decline.  There's rather a lot of sympathy for the EDL by many rank & file BNP-ers (going against Griffin's official proscription of them for being a "Zionist" front group) - take a look at the postings on the EDL by pro BNP-ers on the British Democracy Forum as an example, and you'd think that the BNP would have in fact worked to court the EDL vote - after all, there's enough ex-BNP involved in the EDL top table for Griffin and co to get chatty with.  Maybe one of the reasons for this is the EDL leaders not wanting to throw their lot in with the racists and fascists of the BNP, thus making their "cause" look openly racist too to the general public?

Certainly Clive Jefferson's running of the BNP's campaign has been very flawed, to say the least - I can't find accurate figures for the amount of candidates the BNP are standing in May (the BNP themselves don't seem to be advertising this - wonder why?), but it looks to be around the 250 mark - this covers the English local elections and the NI elections; I haven't been able to find the number of candidates standing in the Scottish and Welsh assembly elections.  That would be less than the 744 they stood in 2007, and even less than in 2002.  Still a substasntial number by any means, but certainly quite a significant decrease too.  

It's hard to see under what policies/stances the BNP will be fighting under for these elections - they don't seem to have addressed the current cuts situation (surely no.1 as a topic for their potential audience at the moment?), and as butchersapron says, the EDL are currently running with the anti-Islam ball, so what does that leave then - their "Bring The Boys Back Home" campaign?  Bashing the EU? (How active/effective are Messrs Griffin and Brons?  Does the man/woman on the street even know they're Euro MPs?)  Calls for "British First" in jobs, housing, welfare etc (Probably their biggest draw for the potential voter)?  In 2002, they could lay claim to being the "radical" nationalist alternative to the mainstream parties - whither the BNP now on this score?


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## Pickman's model (Apr 10, 2011)

redsquirrel said:


> What's offence has been arrested for? That article doesn't make it clear.
> And the BBc isn't much better just calling it a "public order offence"
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-east-wales-13028793


 
probably section 4 or section 5.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 10, 2011)

MellySingsDoom said:


> The BNP are by no means a dead party yet, but with their ongoing financial problems, defections of candidates and activists to the English Democrats, and Nick Griffin's chairmanship increasingly being seen as toxic by the rank and file (and not just by disgruntled "faces"), they'd need to pull something pretty big election-wise out of the bag to halt their continued decline.  There's rather a lot of sympathy for the EDL by many rank & file BNP-ers (going against Griffin's official proscription of them for being a "Zionist" front group) - take a look at the postings on the EDL by pro BNP-ers on the British Democracy Forum as an example, and you'd think that the BNP would have in fact worked to court the EDL vote - after all, there's enough ex-BNP involved in the EDL top table for Griffin and co to get chatty with.  Maybe one of the reasons for this is the EDL leaders not wanting to throw their lot in with the racists and fascists of the BNP, thus making their "cause" look openly racist too to the general public?
> 
> Certainly Clive Jefferson's running of the BNP's campaign has been very flawed, to say the least - I can't find accurate figures for the amount of candidates the BNP are standing in May (the BNP themselves don't seem to be advertising this - wonder why?), but it looks to be around the 250 mark - this covers the English local elections and the NI elections; I haven't been able to find the number of candidates standing in the Scottish and Welsh assembly elections.  That would be less than the 744 they stood in 2007, and even less than in 2002.  Still a substasntial number by any means, but certainly quite a significant decrease too.
> 
> It's hard to see under what policies/stances the BNP will be fighting under for these elections - they don't seem to have addressed the current cuts situation (surely no.1 as a topic for their potential audience at the moment?), and as butchersapron says, the EDL are currently running with the anti-Islam ball, so what does that leave then - their "Bring The Boys Back Home" campaign?  Bashing the EU? (How active/effective are Messrs Griffin and Brons?  Does the man/woman on the street even know they're Euro MPs?)  Calls for "British First" in jobs, housing, welfare etc (Probably their biggest draw for the potential voter)?  In 2002, they could lay claim to being the "radical" nationalist alternative to the mainstream parties - whither the BNP now on this score?


 
i don't think any bnp member has been disciplined for involvement with the edl


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## MellySingsDoom (Apr 10, 2011)

Pickman's model- you're right on that front, surprising in that the BNP top team have been suspending/expelling activists for all sorts of other reasons over the past months.  I think that Griffin does not want to associate with the EDL in public, but is well aware of the BNP/EDL links on the ground, and is wary of stamping down on this for fear of causing one hell of a ruckus amongst the rank and file.  The cynic in me thinks that Griffin may well be sniffy about the EDL, but he sure wouldn't reject any donations from that direction.


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## audiotech (Apr 10, 2011)

The full list of BNP + flora candidates for the 2011 UK council elections and Welsh National Assembly elections can be found here:

http://www.hopenothate.org.uk/2011/elections/


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## MellySingsDoom (Apr 10, 2011)

Thanks audiotech - very useful.  Getting my trusty calculator out, the BNP candidates tally is as follows: England - 261; Scottish Assembly - 32; Welsh Assembly - 27; Northern Ireland - 4.  The English candidates total is I think about equal to their 2002 slate.  Having a quick shufty at the line-up, it looks like the BNP are standing strongest in their heartlands - pretty much a full slate in Barnsley, for example, plus a fair whack in Birmingham.  I note the confirmation that Derek Beackon (he of Isle of Dogs "fame") is standing in Thrurrock - interesting to see how an unrepentant Tyndallite is standing for them; no doubt his previous career as Councillor Beackon of Millwall stands him in good stead in the party still these days.

As an aside, I see the British People's Party (BPP) are standing one candidate (in Todmorton) - I thought that this fascist grouplet had retreated to internetland?


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## Pickman's model (Apr 10, 2011)

MellySingsDoom said:


> Thanks audiotech - very useful.  Getting my trusty calculator out, the BNP candidates tally is as follows: England - 261; Scottish Assembly - 32; Welsh Assembly - 27; Northern Ireland - 4.  The English candidates total is I think about equal to their 2002 slate.  Having a quick shufty at the line-up, it looks like the BNP are standing strongest in their heartlands - pretty much a full slate in Barnsley, for example, plus a fair whack in Birmingham.  I note the confirmation that Derek Beackon (he of Isle of Dogs "fame") is standing in Thrurrock - interesting to see how an unrepentant Tyndallite is standing for them; no doubt his previous career as Councillor Beackon of Millwall stands him in good stead in the party still these days.
> 
> As an aside, I see the British People's Party (BPP) are standing one candidate (in Todmorton) - I thought that this fascist grouplet had retreated to internetland?


todmorton? link pls


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## MellySingsDoom (Apr 10, 2011)

Pickman's model - Link here for you: http://www.calderdale.gov.uk/council/democracy/election-information/persons-nominated/todmorden-township.html -   Could this be the same David Jones who strutted his stuff in the WNP?

e2a:  Mr Jones is standing in the Stansfield ward.


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 10, 2011)

MellySingsDoom said:


> The BNP are by no means a dead party yet, but with their ongoing financial problems...



And rumours abounding about HMRC proceedings having been started against them.


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## butchersapron (Apr 13, 2011)

BNP member in line to become Padiham mayor



> The British National party expects to see one of its members become mayor of a Lancashire town close to the scene of serious street violence a decade ago.
> 
> John Cave, whose wife, Sharon Wilkinson, is a BNP county councillor for the small former mill town of Padiham, on the edge of Burnley, is likely to take over the office in a year's time after being chosen as deputy mayor this week.
> 
> The council has only parish status but Padiham retains the title of town and uses traditional civic regalia and the town hall to assert as much independence as it can against Burnley borough council.



I'm expecting to see a lot of this low level work being taken on again over the next year - they've already gone back to taking up parish seats recently. They need some consolidation. And Griffin needs to start showing an interest again.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 13, 2011)

MellySingsDoom said:


> Pickman's model - Link here for you: http://www.calderdale.gov.uk/council/democracy/election-information/persons-nominated/todmorden-township.html -   Could this be the same David Jones who strutted his stuff in the WNP?
> 
> e2a:  Mr Jones is standing in the Stansfield ward.


 how strange the nf and bpp are standing in the same ward, thus condemning both of them to embarrassingly low numbers of votes


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## MellySingsDoom (Apr 13, 2011)

butchersapron - Yeah, looks like the BNP are picking up parish council seats (which are usually uncontested - mainly being of a local voluntary work basis etc role).  They've been putting in candidates to stand in more than one parish council too (think that Griffin's daughter's husband is doing this).  Do parish councils have any real power compared to "proper" councils? (This is something I admit to being somewhat ignorant on).

Pickman's model - Yes, I know.  I bet Eddy Morrison (ex-BPP leader and current NF Directorate member) won't be pleased!


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## skitr (Apr 13, 2011)

Just found out we've got a BNP standing near us in local. Not happy at all. UAF are demo-ing against it, but don't know whether I join them or do nothing at all.


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## The39thStep (Apr 13, 2011)

Guardian giving free publicity to the BNP again over a member of theirs being nominated for Deputy Mayor of a town council, no plans for concentration camps apparantly.


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## frogwoman (Apr 13, 2011)

fucking guardian.


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## MellySingsDoom (Apr 17, 2011)

BNP at it again in Scotland: http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/politics/bnp-reported-over-scots-leaflets-1.1096736#

Doubtless the comments re Eastern Europeans will go down a treat with the BNP's Polish "nationalist" comrades (bloody white people coming over here etc).


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## The39thStep (Apr 17, 2011)

Lets face it there is considerable support for any one who says that there should be less immigration. 

It was interesting to hear Capello saying that in Italy there was a problem with too much African immigration recently.


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 17, 2011)

MellySingsDoom said:


> butchersapron - Yeah, looks like the BNP are picking up parish council seats (which are usually uncontested - mainly being of a local voluntary work basis etc role).  They've been putting in candidates to stand in more than one parish council too (think that Griffin's daughter's husband is doing this).  Do parish councils have any real power compared to "proper" councils? (This is something I admit to being somewhat ignorant on).


 
Parish councils *can* (but not all do) exercise a fair bit of control over how parish money gets spent, and can (especially in rural situations) be a pretty good route into the local power structures. IIRC, myself, Butch and quite a few others mentioned that the BNP might try moving in this direction after some of the ward councillor cock-ups. It is certainly a good route into the kind of "respectability" that Griffin's BNP crave.

Still, I'm sure that HnH will mobilise their battalions of anti-fascists to go shout slogans at parish council meetings!


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## Proper Tidy (Apr 17, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Parish councils *can* (but not all do) exercise a fair bit of control over how parish money gets spent, and can (especially in rural situations) be a pretty good route into the local power structures. IIRC, myself, Butch and quite a few others mentioned that the BNP might try moving in this direction after some of the ward councillor cock-ups. It is certainly a good route into the kind of "respectability" that Griffin's BNP crave.
> 
> Still, I'm sure that HnH will mobilise their battalions of anti-fascists to go shout slogans at parish council meetings!


 
The BNP has been doing this for years, their whole strategy in Wales has long been to take up community council (our version of parish councils) seats. I'm not convinced it is a worthwhile strategy tbh.


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## Sue (Apr 17, 2011)

Parish Councils are a bit pointless apart from the sheen of respectability (you can call yourself 'councillor' which implies people voted for you, even if often there's never been an election because nobody wants to do it) and the cash they can access.


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## sihhi (Apr 17, 2011)

The39thStep said:


> Lets face it there is considerable support for any one who says that there should be less immigration.



Yes, it's one of the ways Labour councils who are doing cuts to local services have been planning to get back voters from the Lib Dems in these local elections.


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 17, 2011)

Proper Tidy said:


> The BNP has been doing this for years, their whole strategy in Wales has long been to take up community council (our version of parish councils) seats. I'm not convinced it is a worthwhile strategy tbh.


 
In England they've put much more effort into ward seats. The problem there being it requires the people that get elected to actually carry out a ward councillor's workload, and some of the BNP's councillors have proven to be unable to do so. Whether through laziness or stupidity, who knows?

Getting an "in" at parish council level though, it's very likely about putting a respectable gloss to the BNP image, especially if they don't stir anything up.


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 17, 2011)

Sue said:


> Parish Councils are a bit pointless apart from the sheen of respectability (you can call yourself 'councillor' which implies people voted for you, even if often there's never been an election because nobody wants to do it) and the cash they can access.


 
I think that how pointless they are depends on where *you* are. I know the PC where my parents live in Noddlyland north Norfolk are very active, as are the neighbouring ones. They get involved with most issues important to the local community, from amenities to shooting the county council up the arse if the verges and ditches aren't cleared regularly, and to funding local projects.

Round here, in the big shitty, I haven't got a clue what the PC do


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## Sue (Apr 17, 2011)

Are Parish councils not at meant to at least look apolitical? I've never seen anyone standing under any kind of party banner even when they're a party member.


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## love detective (Apr 17, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> In England they've put much more effort into ward seats. The problem there being it requires the people that get elected to actually carry out a ward councillor's workload, and *some of the BNP's councillors have proven to be unable to do so*.


 
As have councillors of almost all other parties - we often hear about how poor BNP councillors are around attendance & understanding of council procedure etc.., but i've never seen any studies or evidence that suggests there is anything exceptional about BNP councillors in this regard, whether re attendance, performance or behaviour while carrying out a ward councillor's workload. There are some shit ones yes, but this is true of all parties, major & minor - so not something that is of any effective use in singling out and attacking the BNP about.


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## The39thStep (Apr 17, 2011)

Sue said:


> Are Parish councils not at meant to at least look apolitical? I've never seen anyone standing under any kind of party banner even when they're a party member.


 
We have had both Lib dems and BNP contest them


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## Sue (Apr 17, 2011)

Interesting, I've only ever seen people stand as individuals.


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## The39thStep (Apr 17, 2011)

Sue said:


> Interesting, I've only ever seen people stand as individuals.


 
BNP got about 27/28% of the vote


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## frogwoman (Apr 17, 2011)

around here, we're lucky to have an election at all


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## The39thStep (Apr 17, 2011)

cheadlehighstreet has an extremely high level of class striggle


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 17, 2011)

Sue said:


> Are Parish councils not at meant to at least look apolitical? I've never seen anyone standing under any kind of party banner even when they're a party member.


 
They're meant to be, but they're a great impromptu platform, especially if you actually do a good job (which on a parish council generally means doing what the locals want.

Then, when you want to move up the political food-chain, people will remember you, or when you canvass for your local fash-twat candidate people may (if they're a bit mad or bad) say "here, the BNP can't be that bad if old Bob is canvassing for them!".


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 17, 2011)

love detective said:


> As have councillors of almost all other parties - we often hear about how poor BNP councillors are around attendance & understanding of council procedure etc.., but i've never seen any studies or evidence that suggests there is anything exceptional about BNP councillors in this regard, whether re attendance, performance or behaviour while carrying out a ward councillor's workload. There are some shit ones yes, but this is true of all parties, major & minor - so not something that is of any effective use in singling out and attacking the BNP about.


 
Thing with councillors for the 3 main parties, at least in my experience, is that if they don't pull their weight, other ward councillors of the same party will try to both take up the slack and get the lazy one "talked to" by his local constituency party. With the BNP, except in a few areas, that's not going to happen, and the only people who'll take up the slack are the opposition, *if* there is any.

And I disagree about not using it. At a local level it's something well worth drawing attention to, even if just along the lines of "was the last non-BNP councillor this shit?"


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## The39thStep (Apr 17, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Thing with councillors for the 3 main parties, at least in my experience, is that if they don't pull their weight, other ward councillors of the same party will try to both take up the slack and get the lazy one "talked to" by his local constituency party. With the BNP, except in a few areas, that's not going to happen, and the only people who'll take up the slack are the opposition, *if* there is any.
> 
> And I disagree about not using it. At a local level it's something well worth drawing attention to, even if just along the lines of "was the last non-BNP councillor this shit?"


 
They might do when there is an election coming but I think in reality this is very mixed


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## Spanky Longhorn (Apr 18, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Round here, in the big shitty, I haven't got a clue what the PC do



Generally don't get them in cities, except in far flung suburbs where they feel a bit left out.

I think you're right that they're not a waste of time either - they have access to budgets and some minor powers. It really takes very little effort to get elected and once elected shouldnt be much more work than resident's association stuff.

Some PCs do not allow candidates to declare party affiliations, others do so that would explain local discrepencies.


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## The39thStep (Apr 18, 2011)

BNP manifesto  is 'Putting Local People First' with specific agendas for England, Wales, Scotland, and N.Ireland. key points of the English one:

No green belt building
Local referenda
No Council salaries over £100k
Cut climate change expenditure
Halt wind farms
zero tolerance on travellers
Cut all diversity training and translation to foreign languages apart form Welsh, Gaelic etc
Local people first for housing, education and health
discourage settlement of migrants and asylum seekers
zero tolerance on crime 
evict troublemakers
No votes for prisoners
no more out of town shopping malls
protect local bus services
stop railway closures and put more heavy goods on the railways  and off our roads
phase out speed cameras in urban areas
increase police prescence
stop library closures
pensioners first above immigrants
prioritise local sports facilities for youth
local business should employ local people
prioritise health care for the elderly
public sector should use local food
Free parking at hospitals
democratise the NHS
3 Rs in education
increase competitive sport
introduce Christian assemblies
bring back grammar schools but open to all
Cut useless degrees and bring in vocational training
no Halal meat in schools
zero tolerance for paedophiles
reverse tuition fees increase


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 18, 2011)

The39thStep said:


> BNP manifesto  is 'Putting Local People First' with specific agendas for England, Wales, Scotland, and N.Ireland. key points of the English one:
> 
> No green belt building
> Local referenda
> ...


 
I bet they make absolutely no reference to how much legislative change would be needed to meet some of those commitments.


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## Fedayn (Apr 18, 2011)

The39thStep said:


> It was interesting to hear Capello saying that in Italy there was a problem with too much African immigration recently.


 
Capello, a supporter of the Italian Socialist Party in his younger days, is a supporter of Forza Italia and a friend of Berlusconi and anti-immigration Italian politicians, so hardly surprising really.


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## Proper Tidy (Apr 18, 2011)

Didn't he praise Franco when he was at Madrid as well?


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## emanymton (Apr 18, 2011)

The39thStep said:


> bring back grammar schools but open to all


I don't even know where to start with this one


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## Fedayn (Apr 18, 2011)

Proper Tidy said:


> Didn't he praise Franco when he was at Madrid as well?


 
Yes


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## The39thStep (Apr 18, 2011)

emanymton said:


> I don't even know where to start with this one


 
The competitive sport one is a winner though


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## The39thStep (Apr 18, 2011)

Fedayn said:


> Capello, a supporter of the Italian Socialist Party in his younger days, is a supporter of Forza Italia and a friend of Berlusconi and anti-immigration Italian politicians, so hardly surprising really.


 
Bit surprising that as England manager he said something like that , shades of Glenn Hoddle.


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## Fedayn (Apr 18, 2011)

The39thStep said:


> Bit surprising that as England manager he said something like that , shades of Glenn Hoddle.


 
Italian footballers and managers aren't renowned for keeping their mouths shut on stuff like this.


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## Fedayn (Apr 18, 2011)

Intyersting BNP NI broadcast, pledging to donate 10% of their wages back to the community.


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## Spanky Longhorn (Apr 18, 2011)

The39thStep said:


> The competitive sport one is a winner though


Just put that in to wind the SWP up.


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## The39thStep (Apr 18, 2011)

Fedayn said:


> Intyersting BNP NI broadcast, pledging to donate 10% of their wages back to the community.




That is intersting but I can't help thinking that this manifesto has one eye on UKIP and just isn't as radical as it could have been.Misssed oppotunity for them


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## MellySingsDoom (Apr 19, 2011)

Fedayn said:


> Intyersting BNP NI broadcast, pledging to donate 10% of their wages back to the community.




Fedayn - On the 10% thing - both Griffin and Brons said they'd chip in at least 10% of their EU salaries to the "cause".  Griffin's been caught out by fellow BNP-ers for not doing this, and as for Brons - no-one  I can see has confirmed he's doing this either (including Brons himself).  If the BNP's MEPs can't do this, what chance the potential candidates in Norn Iron in doing so?


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## Fedayn (Apr 19, 2011)

MellySingsDoom said:


> Fedayn - On the 10% thing - both Griffin and Brons said they'd chip in at least 10% of their EU salaries to the "cause".  Griffin's been caught out by fellow BNP-ers for not doing this, and as for Brons - no-one  I can see has confirmed he's doing this either (including Brons himself).  If the BNP's MEPs can't do this, what chance the potential candidates in Norn Iron in doing so?


 
Aaah, but the NI ones aren't talking about the 'cause' but to local communities... I don't doubt Griffin has been caught, but i'd not hear he had so why would ordinary punters in the 6 Counties?


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## MellySingsDoom (Apr 19, 2011)

Fedayn - ah, I mis-read what you said originally - communities it is.  I know the Belfast Telegraph ran a piece recently having a go at the BNP, but they didn't mention the money business, so as you say, the average N Ireland person will be unaware of Griffin's shenanigans on that front.  I wonder if people will be swayed by the "money to communities" thing?


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## FreddyB (Apr 19, 2011)

I've just read on Liverpool antifascists blog that the BNP are only standing 200 candidates, 500 down on 2007. 



> Overall the BNP will be fielding just over 200 candidates in next month’s elections – nearly 500 fewer than the in 2007. It said it “was having to cut its cloth” because of the amount of money it had had to spend defending a legal action against the Equality and Human Rights Commission (EHRC).



The thrust of the article is about the BNP being skint but as far as I know standing in a local is free - no deposit. What you need isn't cash it's a local activist base that's prepared to work an area. To me this is apparent lack of active members is more significant than the lack of cash.


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## MellySingsDoom (Apr 19, 2011)

FreddyB - I did a count recently of the BNP candidates standing (full list on the Hope Not Hate site) - I think the final tally is around 250-260, from what I remember) - still well down on 2007, whatever way you look at it.

The word on the ground is that a lot of branches/activists are pretty pissed off with Griffin, and have either retired from acitve campaigning, are putting in a token effort, or have (in some cases) defected to the English Democrats (or to a lesser extent, the NF).  Branches have ceased to exist, and some old hands have decided to throw in the towel.  Alas, there's no time to be complacent though with thoughts about the BNP shooting themselves in the foot big-time - they can still pull out the activist numbers in their heartlands.  We shall see if this translates to bums on council seats at all come May, or whether it'll turn into a damp squib...


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## treelover (Apr 19, 2011)

the indendent has an article on the BNP today mostly based on HNH trawling of the BNP/Supporters facebook sites, imo, their 'evidence' is quite poor and its quite scraping of the barrel stuff.


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## treelover (Apr 19, 2011)

UKIP are set to hoover up plenty of ex BNP votes


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## The39thStep (Apr 19, 2011)

treelover said:


> the indendent has an article on the BNP today mostly based on HNH trawling of the BNP/Supporters facebook sites, imo, their 'evidence' is quite poor and its quite scraping of the barrel stuff.


 
which is pretty much the mode for 'anti fascism' these days


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## The39thStep (Apr 19, 2011)

treelover said:


> UKIP are set to hoover up plenty of ex BNP votes


 
see my post above re the BNP manifesto. Whilst the HnH and internet anti fascsim have pointed to finance, splits  and HnH as being the key to potential demise its actually UKIP that are their biggest threat. 

Vote UKIP to stop the BNP. We might have been premature when we said this last year but this time its a winner.


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## butchersapron (Apr 20, 2011)

268 candidates is the final figure - a significant drop, but bear in mind that with defections (that don't necessarily have to stay defections if the ship is righted) also standing that makes around 400.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Apr 20, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> And rumours abounding about HMRC proceedings having been started against them.



The ill-judged HMRC offensive is long done and dusted. The BNP 'won', in the sense that the disaster prone HMRC failed to prove its case and thus has to pick up not only their own costs (cue tax-payer) but that of the BNP as well. 

No wonder the left/ liberal press have been less than forensic about the outcome.

 Of course there will no doubt be some foot-dragging before the BNP get their money back, and thus to late to affect this election campaign, but get it back they will. And sooner or later they, despite the intense (and no doubt in part M15 inspired) campaign to being them to their knees, will recover their momentum too. The vacumm and the attending animosity to mass immigration/identity politics is simply too big for them not to recover the lost ground. Meanwhile the Tories and UKIP attempts to impersonate them on the doorstep on the signature issues, can only result in the driving the centre (such as it is) even further right, even if there chances of making headway in wc areas will not materialse.

Yet another consequence of the failed coup is that the sleeper spooks inside the BNP are now largely outside the BNP. Which should allow the BNP internally a mischief free run for a decade or more, given that it will take that amount of time in activity to bulid up sufficient credibility to influence events at a regional/national level.


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## The39thStep (Apr 20, 2011)

Joe Reilly said:


> The ill-judged HMRC offensive is long done and dusted. The BNP 'won', in the sense that the disaster prone HMRC failed to prove its case and thus has to pick up not only their own costs (cue tax-payer) but that of the BNP as well.
> 
> No wonder the left/ liberal press have been less than forensic about the outcome.
> 
> ...


 
Good post.


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## The39thStep (Apr 21, 2011)

ICoCo report on far right says that BNP support has widened rather than deepened . Meaning that despite not improving in support in their heartlands of West Yorkshire , Stoke and the North west that they made roads into new areas such as Wales and Eastern England. 

Conclusion is that prevailing attitudes mean that the threat is far from going away: "





> However, as we discussed earlier, whilst support for the BNP changes from year to year, the general trend is strongly upwards. While the party may be losing ground in terms of its likelihood of capturing parliamentary and local council seats the spread of its support is widening into areas which have not previously shown electoral interest This, taken together with the undoubted rise of the EDL, is far from the collapse in far right support suggested by the reporting of the general election result and the focus on the defeat for BNP leader Nick Griffin. Indeed, the upward trend in support for the far right is something which the UK shares with many other countries and is symptomatic of wider concerns built around the demonisation of the Muslim community and the sense of loss associated with tradition and national identity.



http://resources.cohesioninstitute.org.uk/Publications/Documents/Document/Default.aspx?recordId=188

As  Joe says above ie "the attending animosity to mass immigration/identity politics is simply too big for them not to recover the lost ground"


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## audiotech (Apr 21, 2011)

The39thStep said:


> http://resources.cohesioninstitute.org.uk/Publications/Documents/Document/Default.aspx?recordId=188



Thanks for posting.

This quote from Gary Younge  in the Guardian (30th March 2009) drew my attention:



> … the government continues to approach Muslims as though their religion defines them. It rarely speaks to them as tenants, parents, students or workers; it does not dwell on problems that they share with everyone else; it does not convene high profile task forces to look at how to improve their daily lives. It summons them as Muslims, talks to them as Muslims and refers to them as Muslims - as though they could not possibly be understood as anything else.



Which the report addresses further:



> There was a similar danger in relation to the former Government’s Connecting Communities programme which focused on those predominantly White areas which are attracted to the far right . A one-dimensional approach needs to give way to a recognition that all communities are multi-faceted, diverse, constantly changing and adapting to internal and external forces and influences. Previous experience has shown that people are much more likely to engage with positive labels and images, rather than negative ones.  And if engagement is the objective, this should be central to any strategy, policy or activity.



Also, the proposed practical measures of the report need to be taken into account.


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Apr 22, 2011)

A few semi random things:

IIRC the 10% fund that NG and AB were to pay into was to cover some kind of St Georges Day jolly where the fash would celebrate their favourite Turk in a way probably not dis similar to Red, White and Blue Festival. So a pretty narrow escape all round if it turns out they were lying.

I aint sure that this decline is long term, only NG losing his seat in 2014 would start to make that look likely, it's too far off to predict and the permutations of De hondt make it harder still.

It's pretty amazing they haven't capitalised on the 2 seats and ridden the tide of the EDL (even if they have reached a plateau). It does speak to an astonishing level of balls up.

Apparently the fuhrer can only face election if there is a petition signed by 20 percent of the party, and there is no help given by way of supplying registers. This makes it incredibly hard to do and impossible to do without being known about.


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## The39thStep (Apr 22, 2011)

Fantastic. Two for the price of one : the return of Sid Williamson and the return of Sid Williamson on a  blog that shares with us the plight of Wigan Mike and chronicles Sid's long and illustrious contribution to nationalism 

http://thewhitewayhome.blogspot.com/2011/03/brief-history-of-my-time-in-nationalist.html


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## MellySingsDoom (Apr 22, 2011)

The39thStep said:


> Fantastic. Two for the price of one : the return of Sid Williamson and the return of Sid Williamson on a  blog that shares with us the plight of Wigan Mike and chronicles Sid's long and illustrious contribution to nationalism
> 
> http://thewhitewayhome.blogspot.com/2011/03/brief-history-of-my-time-in-nationalist.html



Ah, Saltdean Sid.  Who else has had the honour of weeing upon the same chair that Moseley himself once owned?  As for his teary-eyed reminiscences, very entertaining reading if you keep in mind how many "comrades" have put the boot into him (and on at least one occassion literally) over the years - just have a look (if you can bear it) on the fash forums, or on the old Red Action forum.  And as for the Saltdean One raving about paedophiles, isn't this the same man who Brighton Plod (allegedly, your Honour) had chats with regarding indecent images of children on his computer?....With Eddy Morrison on his own blog whingeing on about planet Zog and gays (and writing some truly atrocious "poetry"), which other ageing member of the Munich Wave Society is going to grace us with their words of wisdom on the blogosphere?


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Apr 24, 2011)

Jeez, that whitewayhome guy needs an editor. Pretty offensive stuff to put stonehenge as his picture too. What is it with white nationalists that they seem to think things would be so much better if only we were all more like them, which is to say (generally) useless arrogant hate filled bellends? 

Anyway, here's a Graun article about the BNP going slowly down the pan. For those abreast of the issues the most remarkable thing about it is the similarity to the Indie piece a few days before.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/apr/22/bnp-faces-local-election-meltdown


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## butchersapron (Apr 24, 2011)

That's because they're both from the exact same source.


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Apr 24, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> That's because they're both from the exact same source.


 
Of course, soz - the HNH piece. And perhaps a bit too much to hope for any autonomous journalistic research and analysis these days.


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## butchersapron (Apr 24, 2011)

I expect they were both much more directly from the searchlight camp. I said two weeks ago that Matthew Taylor would be 'writing' stuff like that before the elections and bang on cue...


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## Random (Apr 24, 2011)

you're up early boss


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## butchersapron (Apr 24, 2011)

Random said:


> you're up early boss


 
Always up around 8, especially when it's this bloody hot.


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## MellySingsDoom (Apr 24, 2011)

Is Matthew Taylor a pseudonym for Searchlight's Matthew Collins?  If so then surprise, surprise.


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## Joe Reilly (Apr 25, 2011)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Anyway, here's a Graun article about the BNP going slowly down the pan. For those abreast of the issues the most remarkable thing about it is the similarity to the Indie piece a few days before.
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/apr/22/bnp-faces-local-election-meltdown



Trying to pretend that Griffin is under more pressure know, after seeing of the leadership challenge, besting ECHR in the courts, (with BNP costs paid by the tax payer)and clearing out the Augean stables, smacks of desperation. With a fresh raft of immigration expected from easter Europe in the real world liberal anti-fascists are the ones who have run out of ideas. Presenting UKIP as the 'good fascists' has been tried and failed. It has zero resonance in wc areas.

 Professor Godwin also rather gives the game away when he claims that the fault for the BNP blip is entirely self inflicted. 'It's all Griffin's fault' and so forth. If true what does that tell us of the efficacy of liberal anti-fascism? And what of the untold millions spunked since 2002 to no avail?


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Apr 25, 2011)

Joe Reilly said:


> Trying to pretend that Griffin is under more pressure know, after seeing of the leadership challenge, besting ECHR in the courts, (with BNP costs paid by the tax payer)and clearing out the Augean stables, smacks of desperation. With a fresh raft of immigration expected from easter Europe in the real world liberal anti-fascists are the ones who have run out of ideas. Presenting UKIP as the 'good fascists' has been tried and failed. It has zero resonance in wc areas.
> 
> Professor Godwin also rather gives the game away when he claims that the fault for the BNP blip is entirely self inflicted. 'It's all Griffin's fault' and so forth. If true what does that tell us of the efficacy of liberal anti-fascism? And what of the untold millions spunked since 2002 to no avail?


 
I'm the first to admit to not being an expert, and I accept that cheering on the demise of the BNP is very premature. But 'seeing off the leadership challenge' by purges and  (with a system that makes challenges rock hard anyway) is only really sweeping things under the carpet at best. I assume alot of resentment will be festering. From the outside the big drop in candidate numbers is surely a bad sign no? (even factoring what Butchers said about the amount of ex BNP standing)

For me the fate of the BNP still stands of falls mainly on the 2014 Euro results. They are far too hard to be predict in any case, and d'hondt makes it harder still.


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## Dhimmi (Apr 25, 2011)

Do folk really believe the BNP actually have a strategy, or could achieve it if they did?


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## The39thStep (Apr 26, 2011)

Dhimmi said:


> Do folk really believe the BNP actually have a strategy, or could achieve it if they did?



You are right each day they just make it up as they go along in the belief that they are just playing at politics with no real hope of any success.


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## MellySingsDoom (Apr 27, 2011)

^^^Touche! (innit )

Anyway - yep, Searchlight are it again (sorry boys and girls) -"exclusive" here: http://www.hopenothate.org.uk/blog/article/1187/a-dog-of-a-day-for-the-bnp

I'll leave you all to get through the blather to find out if any "facts" are actually there - the dread hand of Matthew Collins/Taylor/whatever he's called this week is present and correct - and by the way Searchlight, the BNP's yoof leader lives in Milton Keynes, according to your last report, not Yorkshire - make yer frigging minds up (and er, he's BNP not English Democrats!  Christ, even a thicko like me can spot these howlers).

Now my "glutton for punishment" moment - Searchlight have done yet another "expose" on far-right terrorism - I've d/l'ed it, and for my sins, am gonna slog through it....if they even begin to mention Column 88 again, expect to see a low-flying laptop in the SW8 region...

As for the BNP local elections, well, looks like they've played a low-key one in Wales and Scotland, but have got out their press, had meetings etc - it'll be interesting to see how they poll here.  As I mentioned before (on this thread?), since the late 80's, the BNP has seen Scotland as fertile ground.  Indeed, John Tyndall made many efforts to develop Scotland BNP during his leadership (the Scot Loyalist connection), and Griffin, whether we like it or not, has bedded down roots in Wales for a long time.  I'd be interested to hear from any northern England Urbans as to what the word on the street is re. the BNP's campaigns are there - the heartlands will be the places to watch come election time.  If they can get some  good results here (and time and again they've proved they can poll 20%+ in local election wards - imagine if a "left" party did that on a regular basis!), then it'll secure Griffin's leadership (good for his short term, at least), and more importantly, give them the impetus to carry on their local work - developing connections, relying less on paper candidates and more on active-in-the-community ones...interesting times ahead in BNP Land, that's for sure....


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## Spanky Longhorn (Apr 27, 2011)

MellySingsDoom said:


> and by the way Searchlight, the BNP's yoof leader lives in Milton Keynes, according to your last report, not Yorkshire - make yer frigging minds up (and er, he's BNP not English Democrats!  Christ, even a thicko like me can spot these howlers).
> ..



Far be it from me to defend Searchlight but I think they're saying the Youth Leader was out canvessing for the English Democrats, in Yorkshire (entirely possible given the number of defections towards them) not that he lives in Yorkshire or getting confused between rightwing parties.


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## MellySingsDoom (Apr 27, 2011)

^^^Spanky Longhorn - just re-read the article after what you said, and, er, ahem, er....(yer right) - though what Mr Milton Keynes is doing for the Eng Dems is a tad odd - is he on waffling terms with Chris "NPD are sound" Beverley?  Imagine Grifffin's position -the Boy Collett is booted out by, er, Griffin (bye bye Young BNP), and then replaced by MK bloke (who was poached from the NF), and now he's now working for the "civic nationalists"of the Eng Dems.  Eeh, it's all mixed up, like.


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## Joe Reilly (Apr 28, 2011)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> I'm the first to admit to not being an expert, and I accept that cheering on the demise of the BNP is very premature. But 'seeing off the leadership challenge' by purges and  (with a system that makes challenges rock hard anyway) is only really sweeping things under the carpet at best. I assume alot of resentment will be festering. From the outside the big drop in candidate numbers is surely a bad sign no? (even factoring what Butchers said about the amount of ex BNP standing)
> 
> For me the fate of the BNP still stands of falls mainly on the 2014 Euro results. They are far too hard to be predict in any case, and d'hondt makes it harder still.



Griffin's take on the purges was that many of those purged were working against the BNP, in line with a state agenda. Simple as that. Griffin remember, was a member of the NF in the '70's and watched, and some would say was even party to, the organisation splintering in all directions. Hindsight is invaluable. So while the label provocateur might not have been true in all cases, but it's  a reasonable assumption that those dictating the anti-Griffin strategy were operating outside of the party. 

And as Griffin never tired of pointing out the latest 'scandal' in relation to the supposed duplicity of the leadership invariably appeared on anti-fascist sites first. That is to say, anti-fascist sites and organisations dedicated to maintaining the political status quo - at all costs. In cheering on the demise of the BNP they are also cheering on the M15 operatives working within it. Do we think for a minute that a succesful far-left party would not be subject to a similar offensive from the same quarter? But what the cheering also obscures is that old school anti-fascism hasn't arguably laid a significant hand on the BNP since the mid 1990's. 

So what happens, to 'anti-fascism', if state security decides on a change of strategy, or as some suspect, may have already used up all their key assets in the failed attemt to behead the BNP? This is not to say that the BNP has not been damaged. Of course they have. What organisation wouldn't be? 

Indeed it may take them a further 18 months to fully recover momentum. The moratorium on immigrants accessing benefits from the get go will soon be lifted, which may herald another visible wave, which will automatically cause the entire far-right to rise on the same tide. Coupled with the anticipated impact of the cuts, was that the reason for the timing of the in-fighting within the BNP? A pre-emptive strike?  Moreover a pre-emptive strike from organisations fast running out of ideas? The liberal argument on immigration is already lost -with some surveys putting the opposition at near 90 per cent.  Accordingly aross Europe national leaders like Sarkosy, Berlusconi, Cameron are all fast adopting far-right rhetoric. It isn't necessary to be a historian to see precedents?  Expect to live, as an old Chinese proverb puts it "in interesting times."


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## MellySingsDoom (Apr 29, 2011)

Joe Reilly - Sound analysis, by and large, paras 2 & 3 hit the target in particular.  I'd only quibble slightly with your comments re. Sarkozy and Berlusconi - Mr Bruni has been playing with the racist lot in France for many years - remember the Sangatte farrago between us and France, where Sarkozy basically said "Get rid of these immigrants to the UK, they're not welcome here"?  And Berlusconi has been more than happy to cohabit with racist and fascist parties in his various coalitions over the years, and allowed them to influence immigration policy and rhetoric for a long while - first anti-Albanian (post-Kosovo war), then anti-African, and then anti-Romany.  As for Disco Dave, he's simply following in the footsteps already laid by Blunkett, Hodge, Brown et al - "New" Labour have a  hell of a lot to answer for too on this front.

And here's a thing - tonight Richard Edmonds has decided to challenge Griffin for leadership of the BNP - it's been confirmed by reliable (ie non-Searchlight) sources.  The question is, why challenge now, with important elections coming up in a week's time?  Hardly conducive to party unity, for starters.  What is Edmonds motivation, I wonder?  Theories:  He's been "turned" by the State; he's embittered about being sidelined in the BNP; he's been influenced by disaffected ex-members/current members to stand; he genuinely believes he is the true voice of the BNP.....two things stand out to me:  the BNP's constitution currently makes it very difficult for any challenger to stand, and even if they do, Griffin still holds enough clout in the party to win any election.  And more damningly for Edmonds, if anyone in the BNP can be called an unreformed fascist, it's him.  Number 2 to John Tyndall in the 80's and 90's, and a virulent racist and anti-Semite (arguably the UK's no.1 Holocaust denier), Edmonds is a throwback to the times where the BNP were the "party of power", using violence as a weapon.  He may well carry affection with some rank-and-filers, but him being a leader?  He'd make the BNP as popular as current-day NF.  To me, his challenge will fail, no question, and he'll end up being expelled.  So again, I ask the question, why now?


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## The39thStep (Apr 29, 2011)

MellySingsDoom said:


> Joe Reilly - Sound analysis, by and large, paras 2 & 3 hit the target in particular.  I'd only quibble slightly with your comments re. Sarkozy and Berlusconi - Mr Bruni has been playing with the racist lot in France for many years - remember the Sangatte farrago between us and France, where Sarkozy basically said "Get rid of these immigrants to the UK, they're not welcome here"?  And Berlusconi has been more than happy to cohabit with racist and fascist parties in his various coalitions over the years, and allowed them to influence immigration policy and rhetoric for a long while - first anti-Albanian (post-Kosovo war), then anti-African, and then anti-Romany.  As for Disco Dave, he's simply following in the footsteps already laid by Blunkett, Hodge, Brown et al - "New" Labour have a  hell of a lot to answer for too on this front.
> 
> And here's a thing - tonight Richard Edmonds has decided to challenge Griffin for leadership of the BNP - it's been confirmed by reliable (ie non-Searchlight) sources.  The question is, why challenge now, with important elections coming up in a week's time?  Hardly conducive to party unity, for starters.  What is Edmonds motivation, I wonder?  Theories:  He's been "turned" by the State; he's embittered about being sidelined in the BNP; he's been influenced by disaffected ex-members/current members to stand; he genuinely believes he is the true voice of the BNP.....two things stand out to me:  the BNP's constitution currently makes it very difficult for any challenger to stand, and even if they do, Griffin still holds enough clout in the party to win any election.  And more damningly for Edmonds, if anyone in the BNP can be called an unreformed fascist, it's him.  Number 2 to John Tyndall in the 80's and 90's, and a virulent racist and anti-Semite (arguably the UK's no.1 Holocaust denier), Edmonds is a throwback to the times where the BNP were the "party of power", using violence as a weapon.  He may well carry affection with some rank-and-filers, but him being a leader?  He'd make the BNP as popular as current-day NF.  To me, his challenge will fail, no question, and he'll end up being expelled.  So again, I ask the question, why now?


 
The likely answer is in para 2 of Joe's post.


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## MellySingsDoom (Apr 29, 2011)

The39thStep said:


> The likely answer is in para 2 of Joe's post.


 
A likely possibility indeed - goes with my "'turned' by State" musings I suppose.  There may well be also the thing that Edmonds resents Griffin for the way his Kamerad Tyndall was booted out of a party that was truly his own creation and baby., and also for Griffin "watering down" the BNP's old uncompromising hardline position to turn them into a party that actually became an attractive propostion to your average man and woman on the street, and not just the hardcore racists/true believers.


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## ddraig (Apr 30, 2011)

apparently Caerphilly town centre is swarming with BNP scum this afternoon


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## elbows (May 5, 2011)

8 men and 4 women standing as BNP candidates in my area today. I'll be watching closely, they have had some momentum in this part of the world for some years now, so I'll be interested to see if failures by the candidate or two who previously got elected, and national financial troubles etc make a noticeable difference.


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## The39thStep (May 5, 2011)

5 here , down from 7 last time


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## Proper Tidy (May 5, 2011)

ddraig said:


> apparently Caerphilly town centre is swarming with BNP scum this afternoon


 
I think they came mobbed up cos they had a fair bit of opposition come out on the weekend


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## Proper Tidy (May 5, 2011)

No BNP candidate for the first time in Wrexham in a long time, a decade at least. But they are on the regional list, they'd need around 10% to get a regional list seat. They didn't come far off last time.


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## audiotech (May 5, 2011)

Reportedly, 'BNP thuggery in Thurruck' and a 'ballot box stolen'? 

http://www.hopenothate.org.uk/blog/

Edit: It appears now that the stolen ballot box is bunkem.


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## audiotech (May 6, 2011)

Griffin at the Swansea count.


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## taffboy gwyrdd (May 6, 2011)

Doesn't look like a good night for the scum from first readings, at a time of recession one would expect better for them so perhaps the internal problems are feeding through. Especially good news is a wipe out in Stoke from 6 to 0. 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-stoke-staffordshire-13287333


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## shagnasty (May 6, 2011)

That is good news


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## The Boy (May 6, 2011)

..


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## FreddyB (May 6, 2011)

In 2007 Griffin claimed they'd have control of Stoke within 5 years.


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## revlon (May 6, 2011)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Doesn't look like a good night for the scum from first readings, at a time of recession one would expect better for them so perhaps the internal problems are feeding through. Especially good news is a wipe out in Stoke from 6 to 0.
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-stoke-staffordshire-13287333


 
does that have anything to do with the boundary changes? Is Percentage of votes up or down?


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## elbows (May 6, 2011)

Oops it turns out I was reading the wrong stuff and there are no local elections in my area at all this time around.

Ah well, according to latest results the BNP have lost 8 councillors around the country so far


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## TremulousTetra (May 6, 2011)

SO much for the KPD mentality of SOME U75 @ists.


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## ViolentPanda (May 6, 2011)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> SO much for the KPD mentality of SOME U75 @ists.


 
Who are you accusing of having said something/expressed a viewpoint that it'll later turn out they never said/expressed *this* time, oh bearer of the shining sword of truth?


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## past caring (May 6, 2011)

You give him too much credit VP, for your post allows the possibility that the idiot/liar might have some accurate notion of what "the KPD mentality" might have been.


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## ViolentPanda (May 6, 2011)

past caring said:


> You give him too much credit VP, for your post allows the possibility that the idiot/liar might have some accurate notion of what "the KPD mentality" might have been.


 
I'm sure he knows what "the KPD mentality" is.

Or, at least, he knows the SWP version of what "the KPD mentality" supposedly is, anyway. 

Of course, it's interesting that the mentality that gets attributed to the KPD was manifested to a far greater extent by the SPD of the time, but it's not as easy to have a go at middle-of-the-road social democrats as it is supposed hard-liners, is it?


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## Nigel Irritable (May 6, 2011)

Am I correct in thinking that the BNP have held only one of their seats this time around? And that their vote is down?

Taken together with their setback in Wales (they were hyping up their chance of a seat but in the end fell well short and were beaten by both the Greens and Socialist Labour(!)) this seems like a very bad night for them. Can anyone give a reasonable analysis of their current situation and what's likely to happen. The media is going on about their debt and about what a catastrophe this is for them, but it all seems to be regurgitated Searchlight press releases, so I'd rather get another point of view.


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## MellySingsDoom (May 6, 2011)

^^^ Best to wait until all the results are present and correct, and the data's there to see a) how many peeps in total voted for them, and b) compare and constrast votes/percentages this year with the last set of local elections to see what the lay of the land is.


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## TremulousTetra (May 6, 2011)

past caring said:


> You give him too much credit VP, for your post allows the possibility that the idiot/liar might have some accurate notion of what "the KPD mentality" might have been.


"Hey just ignore rmp3, because next it will be the U75 @ists turn." lol

HLAS


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## claphamboy (May 6, 2011)

As results stand so far:

BNP Councillors - only 2, down 11.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/special/election2011/council/html/england.stm

Plus side:

Greens - 66 	up 16


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## TremulousTetra (May 6, 2011)

claphamboy said:


> As results stand so far:
> 
> BNP Councillors - only 2, down 11.
> 
> ...


  good news! It's a victory, but it's not a solution, is it?

time to build a socialist alternative, not just to the fascist, but to the neoliberal consensus which produces it.


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## Proper Tidy (May 6, 2011)

Is it a victory? For who? Doesn't strike me as an antifascist victory.

Most of the smaller parties have been squeezed not just the BNP, Scotland aside where the SNP are no longer a smaller party. Plaid's results in Wales for example are shit. This is in the face of a strong anti-Tory/anti-coalition vote which has led to major Labour gains. The organisational faults of the BNP have played a part, but the far right is still in fairly rude health in the UK, and even if the BNP collapse they will be replaced. The BNP are not the cause of white working class social alienation or the lack of working class political representation, they are a symptom of it, and as the cuts kick in, without any genuine alternatives then people will continue to turn to the far right. Particularly if a Labour govt gets elected which then proceeds to undertake cuts and follow the neo-liberal line, which is of course exactly what they would do.

I don't mean to piss on everybody's chips but every election we see the usual suspects of UAF and Searchlight and the liberal left preaching a new dawn and gloating about the collapse of the far right. Anybody even vaguely familiar with the development of the far right over the last few decades will know that this is the opposite of the truth. Until there is a genuine pro-working class alternative at the ballot box - and one taken seriously by voters - then the far right will continue to pose a major threat, will continue to exercise undue influence over the centre, will continue to see their policies adopted by the centre, and will continue to prosper in working class communities that feel left behind.

But lols that they got less votes than Scargill's lot in Wales mind.


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## TremulousTetra (May 6, 2011)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> good news! It's a victory, but it's not a solution, is it?
> 
> time to build a socialist alternative, not just to the fascist, but to the neoliberal consensus which produces it.


 


Proper Tidy said:


> Is it a victory? For who? Doesn't strike me as an antifascist victory.
> 
> Most of the smaller parties have been squeezed not just the BNP, Scotland aside where the SNP are no longer a smaller party. Plaid's results in Wales for example are shit. This is in the face of a strong anti-Tory/anti-coalition vote which has led to major Labour gains. The organisational faults of the BNP have played a part, but the far right is still in fairly rude health in the UK, and even if the BNP collapse they will be replaced. The BNP are not the cause of white working class social alienation or the lack of working class political representation, they are a symptom of it, and as the cuts kick in, without any genuine alternatives then people will continue to turn to the far right. Particularly if a Labour govt gets elected which then proceeds to undertake cuts and follow the neo-liberal line, which is of course exactly what they would do.
> 
> ...


tom8O's tomarto's.


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## Plumdaff (May 6, 2011)

I'd agree with much of what Proper Tidy says and would add that we're no way near the point at which I'd expect to see an upswing in BNP support. That time is coming soon - when the cuts to jobs and services really bite, it's only just starting to happen - and we'll see whether there's a broad left able to fight back against it (it sure as hell won't come from Labour).


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## MellySingsDoom (May 6, 2011)

^^^Also, if, as Joe Reilly has previously stated, the Con Dems relax their current moratorium on immigration (through to the demands of corporates/business etc to have a more fluid immigration policy to help create growth and wealth), then the BNP/NF etc will think that Xmas has come early as they'd see that as a "return to uncontrolled immigration" (no doubt fuelled too by the right wing press) - manna from heaven for the far-right.


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## past caring (May 6, 2011)

As it goes, Joe's point; 



Joe Reilly said:


> The moratorium on immigrants accessing benefits from the get go will soon be lifted, which may herald another visible wave, which will automatically cause the entire far-right to rise on the same tide.



was not a prediction but a statement of fact. From 30/1/2004 when their countries acceded to the EU, A8 nationals (Poles, Czechs, Estonians, Hungarians, Latvians, Lithuanians, Slovakians and Slovenians) could not claim benefits such as JSA, Income Support (and from when it was introduced in 2008, ESA) without first having completed 12 months continuous employment registered with the Home Office. Housing Benefit could be claimed, but _only_ if they were in work and on a low income. The rules didn't apply to the self-employed (they could claim in-work benefits like Working Tax Credit) whilst they were self-employed, but if that stopped they would still have to complete 12 months registered work before being able to claim. The UK was allowed to "derogate" from the rules allowing free movement for all EU citizens in respect of these A8 nationals for a period of 5 years - with the option of a 2 year extension which was taken.

So whilst we may have seen some considerable numbers of eastern European immigrants, it was also true to say that no-one was simply able to ship up here and claim benefits on the basis of looking for work. From 1/5/2011 the UK had no option but to abandon those rules that restricted benefit entitlement, so it's not a case of whether the rules will or will not be relaxed - they've already gone.


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## ViolentPanda (May 6, 2011)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> good news! It's a victory, but it's not a solution, is it?



It's not really a victory, though. It's a manifestation of, for the most part, the BNP's lack of success at holding onto gains within the normal ebb and flow of local party politics.

That doesn't mean, of course, that it won't be *claimed* as a victory by certain interested "parties", but a claim isn't a matter of fact.



> time to build a socialist alternative, not just to the fascist, but to the neoliberal consensus which produces it.


 
Isn't that what the SWP have been trying and failing to do for 4+ decades?


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## MellySingsDoom (May 6, 2011)

past caring -thanks for that, very informative. The shit will really hit the fan if Roma from Czech Rep and Slovakia (where they suffer immense racism and discrimination) are allowed their legal right to come here  - the BNP and NF will play massively on this "alien invasion".


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## ViolentPanda (May 6, 2011)

Proper Tidy said:


> I don't mean to piss on everybody's chips but every election we see the usual suspects of UAF and Searchlight and the liberal left preaching a new dawn and gloating about the collapse of the far right. Anybody even vaguely familiar with the development of the far right over the last few decades will know that this is the opposite of the truth.



The problem being that UAF have inculcated themselves with a narrative that says that BNP support is based on social and economic factors as they affect a single class



> Until there is a genuine pro-working class alternative at the ballot box - and one taken seriously by voters - then the far right will continue to pose a major threat, will continue to exercise undue influence over the centre, will continue to see their policies adopted by the centre, and will continue to prosper in working class communities that feel left behind.



it's not just "working-class communities" where they've established beachheads, though. They've done well in lower middle-class/"working class made good" neighbourhoods too.

(Mind you, this depends how you're defining "working class: Socially and/or economically?



> But lols that they got less votes than Scargill's lot in Wales mind.


 
That's what you call "discouraging".


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## TremulousTetra (May 7, 2011)

lagtbd said:


> I'd agree with much of what Proper Tidy says and would add that we're no way near the point at which I'd expect to see an upswing in BNP support. That time is coming soon - when the cuts to jobs and services really bite, it's only just starting to happen - and we'll see whether there's a broad left able to fight back against it (it sure as hell won't come from Labour).


 what is it now? Has to be nearly 16 years of anti-asylum seeker/immigrant propaganda on a daily basis. Even the BNP recognise this is the basis of their growing support.
One reason they haven't got a bigger foothold in my opinion, is because whether or not it is anything to do with anti-fascism, in most people's minds, the BNP have been most definitely tagged as a neofascist party. Something, however shit the mainstream parties, something most people would want nothing to do with.
At the end of the day, people pick up on a word, instead of addressing the whole post. There is no disagreement whatsoever over the issue of the necessity to build an alternative. An electoral alternative? Having been on the knocker in two failed attempts to build a 'reformist' with revolutionaries involved mass party, an electoral alternative, I have my doubts whether this is the best way to go. Obviously I could be wrong, and would love it if the Socialist party, whoever, proved me wrong. I really don't have any issue with that.

What I have an issue with, is this simplistic, nonsensical notion, that antifascism and building an alternative cannot be done at the same time. That the two activities cannot go hand-in-hand. That KPD mentality.


----------



## dennisr (May 7, 2011)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> What I have an issue with, is this simplistic, nonsensical notion, that antifascism and building an alternative cannot be done at the same time. That the two activities cannot go hand-in-hand. That KPD mentality.



Talk about re-writing history. Talk about straw man arguements (and worse). So why does the organisation you support seperate the two out? - to the extent of 'vote labour - its better than the BNP', put tories on platforms in a 'popular' front etc etc etc. The campaign against the BNP should put forward class slogans - "jobs and home not racism" - "working class unity against tory cuts" - not Liberal mentality "unity". Don't try and hide 20+ years of SWP hypocricy.


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## Plumdaff (May 7, 2011)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> What I have an issue with, is this simplistic, nonsensical notion, that antifascism and building an alternative cannot be done at the same time. That the two activities cannot go hand-in-hand. That KPD mentality.


 
Well don't have an issue because I quite clearly wrote nothing of the sort.

As for the rest of your post, surely it's clear to you that there's a difference between propaganda and the daily reality of unemployment and poverty increasing as services and prospects dwindle and how this might lead to an increase in BNP support? We're in a terrible mess on the left at present, but I'd suggest community anti-cuts campaigns are good places to start building an anti-fascist alternative right now.


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## The39thStep (May 7, 2011)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> what is it now? Has to be nearly 16 years of anti-asylum seeker/immigrant propaganda on a daily basis. Even the BNP recognise this is the basis of their growing support.
> One reason they haven't got a bigger foothold in my opinion, is because whether or not it is anything to do with anti-fascism, in most people's minds, the BNP have been most definitely tagged as a neofascist party. Something, however shit the mainstream parties, something most people would want nothing to do with.
> At the end of the day, people pick up on a word, instead of addressing the whole post. There is no disagreement whatsoever over the issue of the necessity to build an alternative. An electoral alternative? Having been on the knocker in two failed attempts to build a 'reformist' with revolutionaries involved mass party, an electoral alternative, I have my doubts whether this is the best way to go. Obviously I could be wrong, and would love it if the Socialist party, whoever, proved me wrong. I really don't have any issue with that.
> 
> What I have an issue with, is this simplistic, nonsensical notion, that antifascism and building an alternative cannot be done at the same time. That the two activities cannot go hand-in-hand. That KPD mentality.


 
The BNP have been tagged as a neo nazi party for the past 20 years but that has hardy prevented it winning MEPs, council seats and getting a better reception in some working class areas than the left.

In my mid the best anti fascism is that of building a political alternative locally in working class communities but not one that is based on vote any one but BNP and that just because it is kicking off in the middle east then a revolution is possible here.


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## Pickman's model (May 7, 2011)

The39thStep said:


> The BNP have been tagged as a neo nazi party for the past 20 years but that has hardy prevented it winning MEPs, council seats and getting a better reception in some working class areas than the left.
> 
> In my mid the best anti fascism is that of building a political alternative locally in working class communities but not one that is based on vote any one but BNP and that just because it is kicking off in the middle east then a revolution is possible here.


 
yeh. but that would be sensible. and the left is generally anything but. there's also the allure of the distant, that something kicking off in cuba or egypt will attract supporters who would not show the same interest if it happened in france or ireland.


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## Pickman's model (May 7, 2011)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> what is it now? Has to be nearly 16 years of anti-asylum seeker/immigrant propaganda on a daily basis. Even the BNP recognise this is the basis of their growing support.
> One reason they haven't got a bigger foothold in my opinion, is because whether or not it is anything to do with anti-fascism, in most people's minds, the BNP have been most definitely tagged as a neofascist party. Something, however shit the mainstream parties, something most people would want nothing to do with.
> At the end of the day, people pick up on a word, instead of addressing the whole post. There is no disagreement whatsoever over the issue of the necessity to build an alternative. An electoral alternative? Having been on the knocker in two failed attempts to build a 'reformist' with revolutionaries involved mass party, an electoral alternative, I have my doubts whether this is the best way to go. Obviously I could be wrong, and would love it if the Socialist party, whoever, proved me wrong. I really don't have any issue with that.
> 
> What I have an issue with, is this simplistic, nonsensical notion, that antifascism and building an alternative cannot be done at the same time. That the two activities cannot go hand-in-hand. That KPD mentality.


 
what you have an issue with is reality.


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## TremulousTetra (May 7, 2011)

lagtbd said:


> Well don't have an issue because I quite clearly wrote nothing of the sort.
> 
> As for the rest of your post, surely it's clear to you that there's a difference between propaganda and the daily reality of unemployment and poverty increasing as services and prospects dwindle and how this might lead to an increase in BNP support? We're in a terrible mess on the left at present, but I'd suggest community anti-cuts campaigns are good places to start building an anti-fascist alternative right now.


 agreed, you didn't write anything like that, wasn't suggesting you had. Crossed wires.



Don't really disagree with the rest of your post, yes it might lead to an increase in the neofascist vote. BUT turkeys don't over Christmas. I think the antifascist work has had an effect upon people's perception of the BNP, as neofascist. 

What I'm simply saying is we should do what you say, with antifascist work as well.


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## TremulousTetra (May 7, 2011)

The39thStep said:


> The BNP have been tagged as a neo nazi party for the past 20 years but that has hardy prevented it winning MEPs, council seats and getting a better reception in some working class areas than the left.
> 
> In my mid the best anti fascism is that of building a political alternative locally in working class communities but not one that is based on vote any one but BNP and that just because it is kicking off in the middle east then a revolution is possible here.


 
and you are perfectly free to be of that opinion. I simply disagree. I think you can do both,  build anti fascism, and build an alternative. The two of them are not mutually exclusive. In fact, quite the contrary, because in the process of building anti-fascism, the topic of an alternative, quite naturally comes up.


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## Pickman's model (May 7, 2011)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> and you are perfectly free to be of the opinion. I simply disagree. I think you can do both,  build anti fascism, and build an alternative. The two of them are not mutually exclusive. In fact, quite the contrary, because in the process of building after fascism, the topic of an alternative, quite naturally comes up.


 i thought you were talking about building AGAINST fascism rather than AFTER it. but your post suggests to me that as far as you're concerned before you're going to do anything about fascism we'll have to live under it. rather a fucking fail, i'd say.


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## Proper Tidy (May 7, 2011)

What is antifascism, in your view, RMP3?

If antifascism is defending the mainstream then I am no antifascist, to paraphrase a dying man with a beard.


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## TremulousTetra (May 7, 2011)

dennisr said:


> Talk about re-writing history. Talk about straw man arguements (and worse). So why does the organisation you support seperate the two out? - to the extent of 'vote labour - its better than the BNP', put tories on platforms in a 'popular' front etc etc etc. The campaign against the BNP should put forward class slogans - "jobs and home not racism" - "working class unity against tory cuts" - not Liberal mentality "unity". Don't try and hide 20+ years of SWP hypocricy.


 
SW does separate the two, that is the point of difference. Socialist worker does not subscribe to the idea that in order to be antifascist, you have to be a revolutionary socialist, socialist, or any kind of political. There is not a check list which people have to fulfil before they oppose fascism. People can oppose fascism, without subscribing to the view that we need to have social revolution if THEY want.  Socialist worker do not subscribe to the view that opposing fascism can only be done by THOSE building social revolution.

ps.  The issue about popular fronts, is another issue. Yes I agree antifascist organisations should use working class methods. MASS opposotion.


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## ViolentPanda (May 7, 2011)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> what is it now? Has to be nearly 16 years of anti-asylum seeker/immigrant propaganda on a daily basis.


 More like 30+ years. The only thing that changed was the label - from "refugee" to "asylum seeker".



> Even the BNP recognise this is the basis of their growing support.
> One reason they haven't got a bigger foothold in my opinion, is because whether or not it is anything to do with anti-fascism, in most people's minds, the BNP have been most definitely tagged as a neofascist party. Something, however shit the mainstream parties, something most people would want nothing to do with.



Which is why they're constantly attempting to re-brand themselves.



> At the end of the day, people pick up on a word, instead of addressing the whole post. There is no disagreement whatsoever over the issue of the necessity to build an alternative. An electoral alternative? Having been on the knocker in two failed attempts to build a 'reformist' with revolutionaries involved mass party, an electoral alternative, I have my doubts whether this is the best way to go. Obviously I could be wrong, and would love it if the Socialist party, whoever, proved me wrong. I really don't have any issue with that.
> 
> What I have an issue with, is this simplistic, nonsensical notion, that antifascism and building an alternative cannot be done at the same time. That the two activities cannot go hand-in-hand. That KPD mentality.



You'd have a point if anyone had expressed the notion that fighting fascism and building a political alternative can't be done at the same time. No-one has.


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## Pickman's model (May 7, 2011)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> SW does separate the two, that is the point of difference. Socialist worker does not subscribe to the idea that in order to be antifascist, you have to be a revolutionary socialist, socialist, or any kind of political. There is not a check list which people have to fulfil before they oppose fascism. People can oppose fascism, without subscribing to the view that we need to have social revolution if THEY want.
> 
> ps.  The issue about popular fronts, is another issue. Yes I agree antifascist organisations should use working class methods. MASS opposotion.


i think what you mean here is that anti-fascist organisations should use _the working class methods of which you approve_. if you look at the range of tactics deployed in strikes, riots and demonstrations - all of them working class methods - you'll find they're a bit wider than the mass opposition you seem to think is the only one.


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## Proper Tidy (May 7, 2011)

Nobody is saying to be antifascist you have to be a revolutionary socialist. But antifascism has to offer or lead to some sort of alternative, because people turn to the far right precisely because they are seeking a radical alternative to the centre. Antifascism that fails to offer or point to an alternative and instead appeals to the centre and establishment politics is worthless.


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## ViolentPanda (May 7, 2011)

dennisr said:


> Talk about re-writing history. Talk about straw man arguements (and worse). So why does the organisation you support seperate the two out? - to the extent of 'vote labour - its better than the BNP', put tories on platforms in a 'popular' front etc etc etc. The campaign against the BNP should put forward class slogans - "jobs and home not racism" - "working class unity against tory cuts" - not Liberal mentality "unity". Don't try and hide 20+ years of SWP hypocricy.


 
It's all the fault of those who don't unite with the SWP though, Dennis, not the fault of the SWP.


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## Pickman's model (May 7, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> It's all the fault of those who don't unite with the SWP though, Dennis, not the fault of the SWP.


 
it never is, is it.


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## ViolentPanda (May 7, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> i think what you mean here is that anti-fascist organisations should use _the working class methods of which you approve_. if you look at the range of tactics deployed in strikes, riots and demonstrations - all of them working class methods - you'll find they're a bit wider than the mass opposition you seem to think is the only one.


 
Indeed, I recall the SWP eschewing the use of physical direct action quite vehemently, which denied them the use of a valid political instrument.


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## MellySingsDoom (May 7, 2011)

Proper Tidy said:


> Nobody is saying to be antifascist you have to be a revolutionary socialist. But antifascism has to offer or lead to some sort of alternative, because people turn to the far right precisely because they are seeking a radical alternative to the centre.* Antifascism that fails to offer or point to an alternative and instead appeals to the centre and establishment politics is worthless.*



Somebody please staple this to the heads of Messrs Gable, Lowles, Collins, Bennett and Smith please.


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## TremulousTetra (May 7, 2011)

Proper Tidy said:


> What is antifascism, in your view, RMP3?
> 
> If antifascism is defending the mainstream then I am no antifascist, to paraphrase a dying man with a beard.


 


> This pamphlet addresses itself to the Social Democratic workers, even though personally the author belongs to another party. The disagreements between Communism and Social Democracy run very deep. I consider them irreconcilable. Nevertheless, the course of events frequently puts tasks before the working class which imperatively demand the joint action of the two parties. Is such an action possible? Perfectly possible, as historical experience and theory attest: everything depends upon the conditions and the character of the said tasks. Now, it is much easier to engage in a joint action when the question before the proletariat is not one of taking the offensive for the attainment of new objectives, but of defending the positions already gained.


shish


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## ViolentPanda (May 7, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> it never is, is it.


 
Not according to the history recorded in _Socialist Worker_ etc, anyway.


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## Proper Tidy (May 7, 2011)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> shish


 
Why don't you just answer the question?


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## Pickman's model (May 7, 2011)

Proper Tidy said:


> Why don't you just answer the question?


 
because he's full of shit.


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## ViolentPanda (May 7, 2011)

MellySingsDoom said:


> Somebody please staple this to the heads of Messrs Gable, Lowles, Collins, Bennett and Smith please.


 
You're presuming that they give much of a shit about where things go after their brand of anti-fascism has been exercised, unless it accrues benefits to them.


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## MellySingsDoom (May 7, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> You're presuming that they give much of a shit about where things go after their brand of anti-fascism has been exercised, unless it accrues benefits to them.


 
Indeed - there isn't a sarcasm smiley unfortuanately.  Never mind, there's always another non-existant "terror group" to get out of the cupboard and dust off.....anyone for another Column 88 exclusive?


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## TremulousTetra (May 7, 2011)

Proper Tidy said:


> Nobody is saying to be antifascist you have to be a revolutionary socialist. But antifascism has to offer or lead to some sort of alternative, because people turn to the far right precisely because they are seeking a radical alternative to the centre. Antifascism that fails to offer or point to an alternative and instead appeals to the centre and establishment politics is worthless.


 
And nobody is saying that some kind of alternative doesn't need building. As long as you have capitalism, you will always have fascism. 

BUT! MASS action anti-fascism, does not need to thrash out an agreement about a new society, before it defends democracy from fascism. Sometimes you have to defend what you've got.

The job of building an alternative, falls those who are agreed upon what the alternative should be, and how you achieve it.

The two operate separately, but they are not mutually exclusive. There is no reason why you cannot operate in both forms of organisation. And why you cannot argue strongly with those are not YET convinced of the need for an alternative working in anti-fascism, that they are wrong, that they also need to be part of building an alternative.

It goes back to the conversation the other day, emancipation of the working class, has to be the act of the working class, and revolutionaries need to be at their side  WHEREVER the working class are in struggle, not in some purist sectarian ghetto shouting from the sidelines. IMO.

This is the mistake the KPD made IMO.


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## TremulousTetra (May 7, 2011)

Proper Tidy said:


> Why don't you just answer the question?


Trotsky already has.


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## ViolentPanda (May 7, 2011)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> Trotsky already has.


 
No, you're projecting the answer that Trotsky gave to a contextually somewhat different  question as the answer to a question *you* were asked, which isn't the same thing.


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## MellySingsDoom (May 7, 2011)

For those interested in the election results for Morley South, where ex-BNP splitter Chris Beverley was standing for the English Democrats:

Neil Dawson (Labour) - 2129 (33.44%)
Terry Grayshom (Morley Borough Independents) - 2076 (32.61%)
*Chris Beverley (English Democrats Party) - 1245 (19.56%)*
Neil Hunt (Conservatives) - 736 (11.56%)
Robert Jacques (Liberal Democrats) - 180 (2.83%)

Turnout - 6336 (38.21%)

A very respectable vote for a "nationalist" - how many "left" party candidates in the locals scored near on 20%?


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## audiotech (May 7, 2011)

Morley South, has a history of some, in what they would term, 'significant levels' of support for fascists - from as far back as the BUF and later the NF. Independents make a strong showing there also. To be blunt, it's a backwater, with little diversity. I wouldn't take this as typical and I wouldn't extrapolate anything from this result either.


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## sihhi (May 7, 2011)

MellySingsDoom said:


> For those interested in the election results for Morley South, where ex-BNP splitter Chris Beverley was standing for the English Democrats:
> 
> Neil Dawson (Labour) - 2129 (33.44%)
> Terry Grayshom (Morley Borough Independents) - 2076 (32.61%)
> ...


 
That's because of a local (unofficial) UKIP-EDP pact in Leeds. EDP (like UKIP in many ways) when you get down to it, are a heap of Liberal Democrat-like-contradiction, they oppose cuts to services in many cases 
'I will also campaign for an end to the unfair treatment of England over prescription charges and university tuition fees only for our students.' etc etc
But the EDP mayor makes cuts in Doncaster; they believe in the deficit problem which can be simply solved by cutting immigration,  leaving the EU and having an English Parliament.

If Labour and Lefts were to make a pact so that Labour stood in 90% of seats and Lefts in 10% in a given council - and the Lefts chose a name with 'Labour' in it, then the Lefts would do well where they stood too.

But yes Chris Beverly is pragmatic and a good operator, he got part of the elderly vote by promising to have elderly-only areas of council housing patrolled by security guards so the hoods would have to pick on other houses.

He deleted all the stuff about how he disliked UKIP on his blog (from his BNP days).


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## sihhi (May 7, 2011)

audiotech said:


> Morley South, has a history of support for fascists - from as far back as the BUF and later the NF. Independents make a strong showing there also. To be blunt, it's a backwater, with little diversity. Oh and don't forget Beverley had won a council seat under the BNP banner, so he was the incumbent losing.


 
That's not quite true it was lost in 2010 to the Morley Independents




> Published on Friday 7 May 2010 13:04
> 
> THE British National Party has lost the Morley South seat to the Morley Borough Independent's Shirley Varley in the Leeds City Council elections.
> 
> ...



http://www.morleyobserver.co.uk/new...outh_to_morley_borough_independents_1_1474780


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## Pickman's model (May 7, 2011)

sihhi said:


> That's not quite true it was lost in 2010 to the Morley Independents


 let's not let the facts get in the way of a good argument, eh?


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## audiotech (May 7, 2011)

sihhi said:


> That's not quite true it was lost in 2010 to the Morley Independents.



I stand corrected.


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## audiotech (May 7, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> let's not let the facts get in the way of a good argument, eh?



Poster cop's here again.


----------



## Proper Tidy (May 7, 2011)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> And nobody is saying that some kind of alternative doesn't need building. As long as you have capitalism, you will always have fascism.
> 
> BUT! MASS action anti-fascism, does not need to thrash out an agreement about a new society, before it defends democracy from fascism. Sometimes you have to defend what you've got.
> 
> ...


 
Will you stop banging on about the KPD?

I am not arguing that antifascism has to "thrash out an agreement about a new society". I am saying that antifascism which says 'vote anybody but the BNP', promotes Labour/Liberal/Tory politicians, and appeals to the state to ban this, that and the other will not enjoy any success in appealing to those sections of the working class that are completely alienated from centre politics and mainstream society. Indeed, that brand of antifascism only serves to entrench support for the far right. It leaves the road clear for the far right to offer a radical alternative, whilst the perception of antifascism and the left is, understandably, that they are part and parcel of the centre and of the mainstream liberal consensus.

You don't do yourself any favours do you?


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## Joe Reilly (May 7, 2011)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> It goes back to the conversation the other day, emancipation of the working class, has to be the act of the working class, and revolutionaries need to be at their side  WHEREVER the working class are in struggle, not in some purist sectarian ghetto shouting from the sidelines. IMO.
> 
> This is the mistake the KPD made IMO.



The KPD made mistakes. What party hasn't made mistakes? But 'shouting from the sidelines wasn't one of them'. It was the primary and only consistent, (physical and otherwise) opposition to the fascists from 1924 onwards. So to accuse them of spectating is a cowardly lie. It is cowardly for a multitude of reasons, not least that many rank and file communists died for the cause, but also because in finger-pointing at the inadequacies of the KPD, the wretched and much bigger SPD are left off the hook almost entirely. 

Paul Foot was a repeat offender in this regard, even employing his column in The Guardian to vilify anti-fascist militants. Bambery was another who distinguished himself in this regard. 

Odd isn't it that even now Trots still prefer the company of the political sponsors of the Free Corps (nazis fore-runners in many respects) to the working class revolutionaries of the KPD? 

Then again when you think of their own record of sleazy collusion not that odd after all.


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## Pickman's model (May 7, 2011)

audiotech said:


> Poster cop's here again.


you don't need to announce yourself like that.


----------



## TremulousTetra (May 7, 2011)

Joe Reilly said:


> The KPD made mistakes. What party hasn't made mistakes? But 'shouting from the sidelines wasn't one of them'. It was the primary and only consistent, (physical and otherwise) opposition to the fascists from 1924 onwards. So to accuse them of spectating is a cowardly lie. It is cowardly for a multitude of reasons, not least that many rank and file communists died for the cause, but also because in finger-pointing at the inadequacies of the KPD, the wretched and much bigger SPD are left off the hook almost entirely.
> 
> Paul Foot was a repeat offender in this regard, even employing his column in The Guardian to vilify anti-fascist militants. Bambery was another who distinguished himself in this regard.
> 
> ...


 fair point about the KPD. Shouting from the sidelines was more in reference to my point the other day about anarchists in Seattle, and on here. So in correction I should have said the KPD made a similar mistake to this.

It was similar, in that they sought to act as a minority of pure revolutionaries, rather than uniting with the majority SDP workers. I underline workers because it is them Revolutionaries have to unite with imo, not the SDP leadership, to create a MASS direct action.

No it is not odd. Even though it was the SDP who sent in the soldiers to put the rifle butt through Rosa Luxemburg's head, the SDP workers were the majority of the working class, and the emancipation of the working class has to be the act of these people, and revolutionaries have to stand with them to win them to revolution imo.

Referring to these workers as social fascist, ghettoised the KPD from the vast bulk of the working class. It's like the call for revolutionary unions, where all the workers with the most revolutionary ideas about transforming society join this fantastic union, leaving the vast bulk of 'capitalist workers'to be influenced by the the 'reformists'.

 so the SDP/reformist leadership 'collusion', is only a means to an end, uniting with the vast bulk of 'capitalist workers' to produce mass antifascist action By the working class for the working class, rather than a self-selected minority carrying out anti-fascism on behalf of the 'capitalist workers' imo.

In short Joe, I can see your point, but I do not agree with you that a minority can substitute for the majority, which is what the KPD/AFA were doing IMO.


----------



## TremulousTetra (May 7, 2011)

Proper Tidy said:


> Will you stop banging on about the KPD?
> 
> I am not arguing that antifascism has to "thrash out an agreement about a new society". I am saying that antifascism which says 'vote anybody but the BNP', promotes Labour/Liberal/Tory politicians, and appeals to the state to ban this, that and the other will not enjoy any success in appealing to those sections of the working class that are completely alienated from centre politics and mainstream society. Indeed, that brand of antifascism only serves to entrench support for the far right. It leaves the road clear for the far right to offer a radical alternative, whilst the perception of antifascism and the left is, understandably, that they are part and parcel of the centre and of the mainstream liberal consensus.
> 
> You don't do yourself any favours do you?


 that isn't what you said above.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 7, 2011)

Joe Reilly said:


> The KPD made mistakes. What party hasn't made mistakes? But 'shouting from the sidelines wasn't one of them'. It was the primary and only consistent, (physical and otherwise) opposition to the fascists from 1924 onwards. So to accuse them of spectating is a cowardly lie. It is cowardly for a multitude of reasons, not least that many rank and file communists died for the cause, but also because in finger-pointing at the inadequacies of the KPD, the wretched and much bigger SPD are left off the hook almost entirely.



I mentioned on here a few days ago that the SPD were more guilty of non-cooperation with their fellow-left than the KPD, but perhaps rmp3 is just retailing the Swappie line, rather than historical fact.

I'm currently re-reading Bracher's "The German Dictatorship". He heaps an awful lot of evidence up to show that in terms of left sectarianism and non-cooperation, the SPD were in a class of their own, with their non-participatory oppositionism considerably weakening the credibility of the Weimar governments.


----------



## MellySingsDoom (May 7, 2011)

Update notes:  After the "triumph" of Sid Williamson's return to the world of "white nationalism" (ahem), we now have the return of.....Pete Rushton!  He hasn't graced us with a blog (yet), but he's popped up on the British Democracy Forum (under the nom-de-plume of "retread"), defending the honour of, er, Pete Rushton.  Time to get a dash of your favourite tipple, and warm to the entertaining highlights of Pete.  He's doing his greatest hits set at the moment, including those timeless numbers "I'm not Searchlight", "John Tyndall and I were close comrades", "Ray Hill!!!!", "the EFP are a respectable organisation" and "I always knew Griffin was a wrong 'un".  The encore number this evening is "I knew Steve Brady too!".  I think he's hoping to do a double act with Mark Cotterill at some point, and wow 'em at some sort of Odinist Vegas.

All we need is the return of Kev The Gluebag Whatmough, and we've got a full set of WNP "legends" back once again in the fray.  Time to get yer anti-fascist popcorn out!


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 7, 2011)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> fair point about the KPD. Shouting from the sidelines was more in reference to my point the other day about anarchists in Seattle, and on here. So in correction I should have said the KPD made a similar mistake to this.
> 
> It was similar, in that they sought to act as a minority of pure revolutionaries, rather than uniting with the majority SDP workers. I underline workers because it is them Revolutionaries have to unite with imo, not the SDP leadership, to create a MASS direct action.



It's SPD (Sozialdemokratische Partei Deutschlands), not SDP, and the "majority" was not a majority, not even in 1919 when the SPD took 38% of the vote, and the USPD (Unabhängige Sozialdemokratische Partei Deutschlands) 7.8% (and both of which included professionals as well as workers in their memberships). Even bearing that in mind, there were still many millions of working class Catholic voters who stuck with the Zentrum Partei in national elections.

One of the reasons that the KPD didn't "unite" with the SPD (or the USPD) was that their political philosophies differed vastly. It's like asking why the SWP hasn't thrown it's lot in with Labour.



> No it is not odd. Even though it was the SDP who sent in the soldiers to put the rifle butt through Rosa Luxemburg's head, the SDP workers were the majority of the working class, and the emancipation of the working class has to be the act of these people, and revolutionaries have to stand with them to win them to revolution imo.



Jesus, where the fuck do you get your (potted) history from?



> Referring to these workers as social fascist, ghettoised the KPD from the vast bulk of the working class.



There were nearly ten years between RL and KL's murders and the use of the phrase "social fascist" to describe the SPD, and the KPD's membership and vote count didn't change upward or downward in light of that. So much for "ghettoised".


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 7, 2011)

MellySingsDoom said:


> Update notes:  After the "triumph" of Sid Williamson's return to the world of "white nationalism" (ahem), we now have the return of.....Pete Rushton!  He hasn't graced us with a blog (yet), but he's popped up on the British Democracy Forum (under the nom-de-plume of "retread"), defending the honour of, er, Pete Rushton.  Time to get a dash of your favourite tipple, and warm to the entertaining highlights of Pete.  He's doing his greatest hits set at the moment, including those timeless numbers "I'm not Searchlight", "John Tyndall and I were close comrades", "Ray Hill!!!!", "the EFP are a respectable organisation" and "I always knew Griffin was a wrong 'un".  The encore number this evening is "I knew Steve Brady too!".  I think he's hoping to do a double act with Mark Cotterill at some point, and wow 'em at some sort of Odinist Vegas.
> 
> All we need is the return of Kev The Gluebag Whatmough, and we've got a full set of WNP "legends" back once again in the fray.  *Time to get yer anti-fascist popcorn out!*


----------



## audiotech (May 8, 2011)

It should be recalled that in the 'Third Period' of the Stalinist bureaucratic consolidation many European Communist party's viewed social democrats worse even than the actual fascists. In Germany the KPD won first prize in misleading and betraying the working class. It not only equated the Social Democrats with the Nazis, but actively collaborated with Nazis to break up Social Democrat meetings, as well as organising joint strikes and supporting a Nazi-initiated referendum to overthrow the Social Democratic government of Prussia. This helped ease Hitler into power.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 8, 2011)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> fair point about the KPD. Shouting from the sidelines was more in reference to my point the other day about anarchists in Seattle, and on here. So in correction I should have said the KPD made a similar mistake to this.
> 
> It was similar, in that they sought to act as a minority of pure revolutionaries, rather than uniting with the majority SDP workers. I underline workers because it is them Revolutionaries have to unite with imo, not the SDP leadership, to create a MASS direct action.
> 
> ...


 
this seems to me to be an argument for the ideological purity which can only be gained by doing nothing, because nothing is ever good enough for the likes of rmp3.

and you're as full of shit (and lying AGAIN) about the KPD being 'ghettoised from the vast bulk of the working class'. in 1932 the kpd polled 5,000,000 votes. how exactly is that ghettoised from the vast bulk of the working class?

answers on a postcard pls.


----------



## dennisr (May 8, 2011)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> BUT! MASS action anti-fascism, does not need to thrash out an agreement about a new society, before it defends democracy from fascism. Sometimes you have to defend what you've got.



Another straw man arguement rather than an honest answer leading to an honest discussion.

No-one is argueing against working with others who are not fully-fledged revolutionaries.

The entire point of a genuine united front is to unite around a common platform of interests - in this case anti-fascism. Uniting different strands of working class organisation/thought that is - in practical united action around common defence of common interests that all recogise they have.

But your organisation confuses this with the 'popular front' (to use the tankie lingo) idea of hiding your alternative in a desire to unite with non-working class forces. In fact you prefer working with vicars and tories over working genuinely with other socialists (just as you manovre socialists off of anti-war platforms at other times). You hide any working class alternative on offer. Your 'united front of a special kind' is, in fact, the very worst type of popular (as in cross class) front. It is against independant working class action - tying workers to some artificial cross class 'unity'



ResistanceMP3 said:


> This is the mistake the KPD made IMO.



The KPD simply had equivilent idiots leading them to those of the 'theorists' of the SWP. Like the SWP they bounced from ultra-left posturing (equating social democrats to 'social fascists' - condemning all workers who were not communists) to cross class popular frontism (tying workers to various false 'progressive' non-working class forces) at the flick of a switch. At least the KPD represented genuine mass forces within german society though. Its a shame those forces had such poor leadership. 

The SWP has learnt absolutely nothing from that experience. Not one single thing - its a closed book to you - at least as far as I can see from this deluded cheerleaders utter confusion and and empty guff about 'KPD menality'. 

Your organisation actually prints Trotsky's writings from the period! - it is little short of astounding that you cannot understand the clear and simple points he is making on the subject of the KPD and anti-fascism. Its a simple guide to action, tactics, neccesities - not some holy writ to be interpreted to suit your parties line at any given point.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 8, 2011)

i don't find it at all surprising that rmp3 cannot understand the clear and simple points trotsky's making on the subject of the kpd and anti-fascism.


----------



## dennisr (May 8, 2011)

audiotech said:


> It should be recalled that in the 'Third Period' of the Stalinist bureaucratic consolidation many European Communist party's viewed social democrats worse even than the actual fascists. In Germany the KPD won first prize in misleading and betraying the working class. It not only equated the Social Democrats with the Nazis, but actively collaborated with Nazis to break up Social Democrat meetings, as well as organising joint strikes and supporting a Nazi-initiated referendum to overthrow the Social Democratic government of Prussia. This helped ease Hitler into power.



As much as there were instances of both brownshirts and KPD supporting strikes and non-agression pacts at certain points - its would be entirely false to paint the KPD as simply stooges of the Nazi party. You are taking examples of the results of wrong-headed ultra-left mistakes by the KPD (and, of course, russian bureaucracy  being behind these mad positions) - raised by critical communists such as trotsky - and painting this as the entire history of the KPD to serve your arguements in the here and now. Instances of the SPD leadership 'helping Hitler into power' by default can also be found.


----------



## TremulousTetra (May 8, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> this seems to me to be an argument for the ideological purity which can only be gained by doing nothing, because nothing is ever good enough for the likes of rmp3.
> 
> and you're as full of shit (and lying AGAIN) about the KPD being 'ghettoised from the vast bulk of the working class'. in 1932 the kpd polled 5,000,000 votes. how exactly is that ghettoised from the vast bulk of the working class?
> 
> answers on a postcard pls.


 


audiotech said:


> It should be recalled that in the 'Third Period' of the Stalinist bureaucratic consolidation many European Communist party's viewed social democrats worse even than the actual fascists. In Germany the KPD won first prize in misleading and betraying the working class. It not only equated the Social Democrats with the Nazis, but actively collaborated with Nazis to break up Social Democrat meetings, as well as organising joint strikes and supporting a Nazi-initiated referendum to overthrow the Social Democratic government of Prussia. This helped ease Hitler into power.


 
shush.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 8, 2011)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> shush.


 
that doesn't answer 'in 1932 the kpd polled 5,000,000 votes. how exactly is that ghettoised from the vast bulk of the working class?'


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## TremulousTetra (May 8, 2011)

dennisr said:


> As much as there were instances of both brownshirts and KPD supporting strikes and non-agression pacts at certain points - its would be entirely false to paint the KPD as simply stooges of the Nazi party. You are taking examples of the results of wrong-headed ultra-left mistakes by the KPD (and, of course, russian bureaucracy  being behind these mad positions) - raised by critical communists such as trotsky - and painting this as the entire history of the KPD to serve your arguements in the here and now. Instances of the SPD leadership 'helping Hitler into power' by default can also be found.


Strawman, no one os saying the KPD were stooges for the Nazi's.   What I am saying is they were ultra left, like some U75 anarchists IMO.

Fair play to him he has never explicitly stated his proper position on fascism, but from everything he has said one anarchist in particular comes across very much in the KPD mould IMO.


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## butchersapron (May 8, 2011)

audiotech said:


> It should be recalled that in the 'Third Period' of the Stalinist bureaucratic consolidation many European Communist party's viewed social democrats worse even than the actual fascists. In Germany the KPD won first prize in misleading and betraying the working class. It not only equated the Social Democrats with the Nazis, but actively collaborated with Nazis to break up Social Democrat meetings, as well as organising joint strikes and supporting a Nazi-initiated referendum to overthrow the Social Democratic government of Prussia. This helped ease Hitler into power.


 
Any chance you could stop pasting the words of others as your own, you've been doing it for months now and it's starting to get annoying.

As for organised joint strikes with the nazis, not really. The KPD initiated a mass transport strike in Berlin 1932 after the SPD unions sold them out that gained a large amount of support (KPS members, members of the NSBO later joined in when it became clear that not to would be to lose the most militnat w/c members. That's it.


----------



## butchersapron (May 8, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> that doesn't answer 'in 1932 the kpd polled 5,000,000 votes. how exactly is that ghettoised from the vast bulk of the working class?'


 
1/3 of Berlin voters in the last Weimar election -and there's many more examples. Inaccurate politically motivated claims of ghettoisation etc only serves to make the person making the claim look daft.


----------



## butchersapron (May 8, 2011)

Of course th really tragic thing about this misguided attempt to forcefully map the historical redundancy and political irrelevancy of 1933 Germnay onto modern day conditions, is that the SWP and the UAF get to place themselves in the role of the SPD (Millions of members, tens of millions of voters, millions of union members).


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## The39thStep (May 8, 2011)

audio tech said:


> Morley South, has a history of some, in what they would term, 'significant levels' of support for fascists - from as far back as the BUF and later the NF. Independents make a strong showing there also. *To be blunt, it's a backwater, with little diversity.* I wouldn't take this as typical and I wouldn't extrapolate anything from this result either.


 
Diversity is often an unfortunate  euphemism for race but of course there is diversity in single race communities. However your comments reminded me of the content of a recent paper (http://www.sociology.ox.ac.uk/documents/working-papers/2010/swp104.pdf) which looks at  two theories that try and understand the more favourable conditions for the far right by analysing data of BNP membership.

One is contact theory which pretty much what is says in that the more contact between people form different background the more suspicion breaks down and trust is built. The second is threat theory where the majority's perception of the threat of a minority over resources ( ie housing, health, jobs etc) increases with the numerical size of the minority. The latter theory can be extended to include issues such as identity as well as resources.

Essentially the far right are likely to do worse where communities integrate or where the perceived threat is low. With the former integration is often patchy across the UK ( supported by top down multiculturalism) and the far right have shifted their focus from race to culture and in particular the fear of Islam. With the latter studies show ( and born out by the Hope Not Hate research) that the fear of immigration  is pretty much the same across whites, blacks and Asians. Top down ,multiculturalism heightens the threat over resources. 

So its not so much about diversity but integration and its not so much about 'hideously white' ( which 'lack of diversity' hints at) but about perceived threat.

Intriguingly though is there any reasons why 'back waters with little diversity'  shouldn't also be a favourable for the left? little community turnover, strong community ties or is he left somehow restricted to areas where there is 'diversity'?


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## TremulousTetra (May 8, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> i don't find it at all surprising that rmp3 cannot understand the clear and simple points trotsky's making on the subject of the kpd and anti-fascism.


 Dennis's post has nothing to do with RMP3. He is making a political attack upon the SWP. Political!  Whereas your post really does typify why IMO you VP  and BA are such complete and utter fucking wankers, because you prefer personal attack, to political attack. That's fine, if that's what you want to do, but is really boring to me.

Have a nice day.


----------



## TremulousTetra (May 8, 2011)

dennisr said:


> But your organisation


 ‘My’ organisation, has absolutely nothing to do with my comments above. I am comparing and contrasting the ultraleft mentality of the KPD in a specific period, with that of ultraleft U75 anarchists generally.


> No-one is argueing against working with others who are not fully-fledged revolutionaries.


 are you sure of that? I think there are some who would argue it was right of the KPD not to work with the SDP. I'm not saying the same people would argue that the KPD were right to work with fascist in undermining the SDP, but what I said above.

Now I have asked these people point-blank about this issue, and they refuse to answer. So, your guess is as good as mine.



> The entire point of a genuine united front is to unite around a common platform of interests - in this case anti-fascism. Uniting different strands of working class organisation/thought that is - in practical united action around common defence of common interests that all recogise they have.
> 
> confuses this with the 'popular front' (to use the tankie lingo) idea of hiding your alternative in a desire to unite with non-working class forces. In fact you prefer working with vicars and tories over working genuinely with other socialists (just as you manovre socialists off of anti-war platforms at other times).
> The KPD [My edit] bounced from ultra-left posturing (equating social democrats to 'social fascists' - condemning all workers who were not communists) to cross class popular frontism (tying workers to various false 'progressive' non-working class forces) at the flick of a switch. At least the KPD represented genuine mass forces within german society though. Its a shame those forces had such poor leadership.


 there isn’t anything I, Paul Foot or Chris Bamberry really disagree with there, now I have edited your comments. It is exactly the same as what the SWP says.  I would just add to that, from my memory of what the SWP said/argue, the Communist parties of the interwar years did indeed swing from one direction to another. If I remember rightly, they were very good between 1928 and 1932/34?, building from the bottom up much grass-roots working-class organisation and resistance. From 1932/34? To 1936/38? flipping to ultra-leftism. And 1936/38 again flipping to popular frontism. These were almost entirely dictated by the imperialist needs of Stalinism.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 8, 2011)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> Dennis's post has nothing to do with RMP3. He is making a political attack upon the SWP. Political!  Whereas your post really does typify why IMO you VP  and BA are such complete and utter fucking wankers, because you prefer personal attack, to political attack. That's fine, if that's what you want to do, but is really boring to me.
> 
> Have a nice day.


 
your claim that the kpd was ghettoised from the working class, despite the fact it received 5,000,000 votes in 1932: comments pls.


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## Pickman's model (May 8, 2011)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> Dennis's post has nothing to do with RMP3. He is making a political attack upon the SWP. Political!  Whereas your post really does typify why IMO you VP  and BA are such complete and utter fucking wankers, because you prefer personal attack, to political attack. That's fine, if that's what you want to do, but is really boring to me.
> 
> Have a nice day.


yeh cos calling people 'such complete and utter wankers' is a demonstration of your political nous, isn't it?


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## TremulousTetra (May 8, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> your claim that the kpd was ghettoised from the working class, despite the fact it received 5,000,000 votes in 1932: comments pls.


A political comment, well done! Even if you did have to pinch them of somebody else.

A big ghetto, still remains a ghetto, if you purposefully ghettoise yourself from the majority. 

The emancipation of the working class, even from fascism, has to be the act of the working class. And the majority of the working class in Germany were SDP politically. The KPD workers should have united with them to obliterate the Nazis while they were still small IMO. Agreed?


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## audiotech (May 8, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Any chance you could stop pasting the words of others as your own, you've been doing it for months now and it's starting to get annoying.



I dispute your general assertion, but I do accept that in this case the post of mine you refer to should have been correctly attributed. I'll do that now.

It should be recalled that in the 'Third Period' of the Stalinist bureaucratic consolidation many European Communist party's viewed social democrats "worse even than the actual fascists". In Germany the KPD won first prize in "misleading and betraying the working class". It not only "equated the Social Democrats with the Nazis, but actively collaborated with Nazis to break up Social Democrat meetings, as well as organising joint strikes and supporting a Nazi-initiated referendum to overthrow the Social Democratic government of Prussia. This helped ease Hitler into power."

Source:

A paper on Italian fascism from 'The Commune'.


----------



## MellySingsDoom (May 8, 2011)

For those interested, this is the result for the ward that Derek Beackon was standing in (Chadwell St Mary):

Anthony William Fish (Labour) - 1174 (53.27%)
Lee Dove (Conservative) - 523 (23.73%)
James Nicholas Baker (UKIP) - 262 (11.89%)
*Derek William Beackon (BNP) - 165 (7.49%)*
Natalie Butcher (Liberal Democrats) - 80 (3.63%)

Turnout - 2204 (31.01%)

In the 2010 election in this ward, Beackon scored 19.80%.


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## ViolentPanda (May 8, 2011)

audiotech said:


> It should be recalled that in the 'Third Period' of the Stalinist bureaucratic consolidation many European Communist party's viewed social democrats worse even than the actual fascists. In Germany the KPD won first prize in misleading and betraying the working class. It not only equated the Social Democrats with the Nazis...



Not quite accurate, they equated them with fascists, hence "social fascists". 



> ...but actively collaborated with Nazis to break up Social Democrat meetings, as well as organising joint strikes and supporting a Nazi-initiated referendum to overthrow the Social Democratic government of Prussia.



As did other small parties of the right and left, it should be said. 



> This helped ease Hitler into power.


 
Many other factors helped Hitler too. The KPD aren't uniquely to blame, and nothing could really be said to have "eased" him into power. Power still, at the final analysis, had to be stolen by him, something that wouldn't have happened if von Paper, Schleicher and Hindenberg hadn't arrogantly assumed that they could act as puppet-masters to him, and garnered support for the Enabling Act.


----------



## TremulousTetra (May 8, 2011)

audiotech said:


> I dispute your general assertion, but I do accept that in this case the post of mine you refer to should have been correctly attributed. I'll do that now.
> 
> It should be recalled that in the 'Third Period' of the Stalinist bureaucratic consolidation many European Communist party's viewed social democrats "worse even than the actual fascists". In Germany the KPD won first prize in "misleading and betraying the working class". It not only "equated the Social Democrats with the Nazis, but actively collaborated with Nazis to break up Social Democrat meetings, as well as organising joint strikes and supporting a Nazi-initiated referendum to overthrow the Social Democratic government of Prussia. This helped ease Hitler into power."
> 
> ...


Why? Why you appologise to these self appointed post police? Fuck him.  If the words conveyed your opinions, they are yours.

Fucking fed up of these internet bullies, fucking mental twots.


----------



## audiotech (May 8, 2011)

dennisr said:


> As much as there were instances of both brownshirts and KPD supporting strikes and non-agression pacts at certain points - its would be entirely false to paint the KPD as simply stooges of the Nazi party. You are taking examples of the results of wrong-headed ultra-left mistakes by the KPD (and, of course, russian bureaucracy  being behind these mad positions) - raised by critical communists such as trotsky - and painting this as the entire history of the KPD to serve your arguements in the here and now. Instances of the SPD leadership 'helping Hitler into power' by default can also be found.



'Stooges'? Of course not and neither did the post paint this as the 'entire history' of the KPD.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 8, 2011)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> A political comment, well done! Even if you did have to pinch them of somebody else.
> 
> A big ghetto, still remains a ghetto, if you purposefully ghettoise yourself from the majority.
> 
> The emancipation of the working class, even from fascism, has to be the act of the working class. And the majority of the working class in Germany were SDP politically. The KPD workers should have united with them to obliterate the Nazis while they were still small IMO. Agreed?


 
not at all. let's put it this way, the emancipation of the german working class from fascism is arguably in part the work of the british ruling class. i will agree with you that 'the kpd workers should have united with the [spd workers] to obliterate the nazis while they were still small' is your opinion. but it's not really an opinion which has the benefit of being historically literate or which has any real thought behind it, is it?

can you name me a couple of countries where the working class have freed themselves from fascism?


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 8, 2011)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> Dennis's post has nothing to do with RMP3. He is making a political attack upon the SWP. Political!  Whereas your post really does typify why IMO you VP  and BA are such complete and utter fucking wankers, because you prefer personal attack, to political attack. That's fine, if that's what you want to do, but is really boring to me.
> 
> Have a nice day.


 
Interesting that questioning your loaded reading of history makes us "complete and utter fucking wankers". 

I haven't made any personal attack on you, so please don't try to imply that I have, all I've done is question your one-sided and inaccurate interpretations of history. Me, I can give you sources for my posts on the KPD and SPD from credible academic sources rather than political sources, can you do the same?


----------



## audiotech (May 8, 2011)

The39thStep said:


> Diversity is often an unfortunate  euphemism for race but of course there is diversity in single race communities. However your comments reminded me of the content of a recent paper (http://www.sociology.ox.ac.uk/documents/working-papers/2010/swp104.pdf) which looks at  two theories that try and understand the more favourable conditions for the far right by analysing data of BNP membership.
> 
> One is contact theory which pretty much what is says in that the more contact between people form different background the more suspicion breaks down and trust is built. The second is threat theory where the majority's perception of the threat of a minority over resources ( ie housing, health, jobs etc) increases with the numerical size of the minority. The latter theory can be extended to include issues such as identity as well as resources.
> 
> ...



An old friend of mine lives in the area if that helps.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 8, 2011)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> ‘My’ organisation, has absolutely nothing to do with my comments above. I am comparing and contrasting the ultraleft mentality of the KPD in a specific period, with that of ultraleft U75 anarchists generally.



In which case it's obviously *extremely* coincidental that your accusation re: the KPD fit so well with those expressed by members of the SWP.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 8, 2011)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> Why? Why you appologise to these self appointed post police? Fuck him.  If the words conveyed your opinions, they are yours.
> 
> Fucking fed up of these internet bullies, fucking mental twots.


 
you don't like it up you, do you?


----------



## TremulousTetra (May 8, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Not quite accurate, they equated them with fascists, hence "social fascists".
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So fucking what? However true what you're saying just comes across as pedantasism, unless there's a point.

Got a hold my hands up, some people may view my words as only bashing the KPD, okay. However, the words come to mind “one small step for man, one giant leap for mankind”. So whilst this ultraleftism at the time might have been a small mistake, in the context of history it was catastrophic. Not just in terms of the rise of fascism. The German revolutionaries were possibly uniquely placed in human history. It is arguable that if events had played out differently, another world may have been possible.
However,  IMO without doubt, if the KPD had united with the SDP and obliterated the Nazis by the use of mass direct action, at the very least world history would have been rewritten. No? Can you not agree with this?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 8, 2011)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> So fucking what? However true what you're saying just comes across as pedantasism, unless there's a point.
> 
> Got a hold my hands up, some people may view my words as only bashing the KPD, okay. However, the words come to mind “one small step for man, one giant leap for mankind”. So whilst this ultraleftism at the time might have been a small mistake, in the context of history it was catastrophic. Not just in terms of the rise of fascism. The German revolutionaries were possibly uniquely placed in human history. It is arguable that if events had played out differently, another world may have been possible.
> However,  IMO without doubt, if the KPD had united with the SDP and obliterated the Nazis by the use of mass direct action, at the very least world history would have been rewritten. No? Can you not agree with this?


but it didn't happen. can you restrain yourself from these trips to fantasy island?


----------



## TremulousTetra (May 8, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> you don't like it up you, do you?


 
 Nice one, that made me laugh.

Pickman> 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





How fucking apt is that.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 8, 2011)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> A political comment, well done! Even if you did have to pinch them of somebody else.
> 
> A big ghetto, still remains a ghetto, if you purposefully ghettoise yourself from the majority.



People don't put themselves in a ghetto, others put *them* in it. The KPD very obviously were neither put in a ghetto or somehow managed to ghettoise themselves. Germany's population in 1932 was 66 million (according to Red Cross figures), 68%/44,800,000 (according to Bracher) of whom had the vote. In real terms that means that the KPD in 1932 took 11% of the available votes. If you allow for voter participation in the Weimar period averaging 70%, that gives you a participation electorate of around 31.5 million, which means that the KPD took just under 1 of ever 6 votes cast.

Ghettoised? Only in your politics, not in the real world.



> The emancipation of the working class, even from fascism, has to be the act of the working class. And the majority of the working class in Germany were SDP politically. The KPD workers should have united with them to obliterate the Nazis while they were still small IMO. Agreed?


[/quote]

Where do you get the idea that "the majority of the working class in Germany were SDP [sic] politically"? 
Furthermore, on what do you base your belief that a united front between the SPD and the KPD could have "obliterated" the Nazis?


----------



## TremulousTetra (May 8, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> but it didn't happen. can you restrain yourself from these trips to fantasy island?


OK mate.  You u75 anarchist's Carry On Defending Stallinism.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 8, 2011)

MellySingsDoom said:


> For those interested, this is the result for the ward that Derek Beackon was standing in (Chadwell St Mary):
> 
> Anthony William Fish (Labour) - 1174 (53.27%)
> Lee Dove (Conservative) - 523 (23.73%)
> ...


 
Looks like another illustration of people using their vote to punish the Lib-Dems for being such arrant wankers and Tory arse-lickers.


----------



## audiotech (May 8, 2011)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> Why? Why you appologise to these self appointed post police? Fuck him.  If the words conveyed your opinions, they are yours.



I made the cardinal mistake of posting after I came back from the pub.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 8, 2011)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> So fucking what? However true what you're saying just comes across as pedantasism, unless there's a point.



Of course there's a point. The point is that unless you understand history, and portray it *accurately*, you miss a shed-load of "little things" that make important differences.



> Got a hold my hands up, some people may view my words as only bashing the KPD, okay. However, the words come to mind “one small step for man, one giant leap for mankind”. So whilst this ultraleftism at the time might have been a small mistake, in the context of history it was catastrophic. Not just in terms of the rise of fascism. The German revolutionaries were possibly uniquely placed in human history. It is arguable that if events had played out differently, another world may have been possible.



Except that, if you have an inkling of the social, political and economic conditions *at the individual and collective levels* of the times, you'd realise that the KPD, even had they formed a united front with the SPD, wouldn't have been able to mobilise enough workers to stop the Nazis.

here's a few reasons why:

SPD membership and support was far more socially-diverse than that of the KPD. A large minority of SPD membership and support (around 40%) was based in the professions, whose members have been historically-unwilling (especially in Germany, look at any history of the Bismarckian state that preceded Weimar) to mobilise.

The KPD had it's own internal factions arguing over the party's policies and actions. To assume that the KPD would have mobilised _en masse_ is naive.

Simplest of all, the Nazis (alongside the right and centre parties) had more divisions, and access to the military personnel and materiel in most of the federated states.



> However,  IMO without doubt, if the KPD had united with the SDP and obliterated the Nazis by the use of mass direct action, at the very least world history would have been rewritten. No? Can you not agree with this?


 
*If* you pre-suppose that a united front had obliterated the Nazis, then yes, history would have been different, but that supposition is based on pie-in-the-sky.


----------



## TremulousTetra (May 8, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> People don't put themselves in a ghetto, others put *them* in it. The KPD very obviously were neither put in a ghetto or somehow managed to ghettoise themselves. Germany's population in 1932 was 66 million (according to Red Cross figures), 68%/44,800,000 (according to Bracher) of whom had the vote. In real terms that means that the KPD in 1932 took 11% of the available votes. If you allow for voter participation in the Weimar period averaging 70%, that gives you a participation electorate of around 31.5 million, which means that the KPD took just under 1 of ever 6 votes cast.
> 
> Ghettoised? Only in your politics, not in the real world.
> 
> ...


So that is no isn't it? You are saying that the KPD workers should not have united with workers to the right of them to oppose fascism?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 8, 2011)

rather than embarrass rmp3 any further about the weimar years in germany, perhaps we could return the discussion to the 21st century and the bnp and embarrass him about the present.


----------



## TremulousTetra (May 8, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Of course there's a point. The point is that unless you understand history, and portray it *accurately*, you miss a shed-load of "little things" that make important differences.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
BUT given the benifit of hindsight, the lesson of history is,,,,,,,,,,,?

ETA


> Except that, if you have an inkling of the social, political and economic conditions *at the individual and collective levels* of the times, you'd realise that the KPD, even had they formed a united front with the SPD, wouldn't have been able to mobilise enough workers to stop the Nazis.


 Fair enough.  That's your position.  Don't agree one can be SO positive of that, but OK.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 8, 2011)

audiotech said:


> I made the cardinal mistake of posting after I came back from the pub.


 
rmp3 simply made the cardinal mistake of posting.


----------



## butchersapron (May 8, 2011)

This stuff from rmp3 is getting embarrassing. This stuff is on the level of _oh so you think labour were wrong to the 1979 election do you?_


----------



## Pickman's model (May 8, 2011)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> BUT given the benifit of hindsight, the lesson of history is,,,,,,,,,,,?


 the lesson of history is you cannot rewrite the past


----------



## Pickman's model (May 8, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> rather than embarrass rmp3 any further about the weimar years in germany, perhaps we could return the discussion to the 21st century and the bnp and embarrass him about the present.


 


butchersapron said:


> This is getting embarrassing. This stuff is on the level of _oh so you think labour were wrong to the 1979 election do you?_


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 8, 2011)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> So that is no isn't it? You are saying that the KPD workers should not have united with workers to the right of them to oppose fascism?


 
Are you blind? I haven't said anything of the sort. I've made the point that the KPD *weren't* in a political ghetto, that they were, in fact, part of the political mainstream.

I did, however, ask you where you got your information from, which I see you've not answered.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 8, 2011)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> BUT given the benifit of hindsight, the lesson of history is,,,,,,,,,,,?



That a form of National Socialism, outwith the DAP/NSDAP, already existed, and that Hitler brought the various threads together, that outwith the NSDAP a rightist "national socialist" party would probably still have manifested, and that while a united front between the SPD and KPD might have been able to counter--balance a non-Hitlerite National Socialism, in the case of what actually occurred, the most likely result of active warfare (rather than the sporadic street-fighting that took place) between a united front and the Nazis would have meant the decimation (or worse) of the working class, especially given that the German Catholic church pushed it's adherents towards a right-political posture.



> ETA
> Fair enough.  That's your position.  Don't agree one can be SO positive of that, but OK.


 
I'm not "positive", I'm stating that, with what we know from analysis of historical records/data, testimony etc, the *probable* outcome would be what I said, that even a united front couldn't have pulled together enough workers into participation in an active fight against Nazism.


----------



## TremulousTetra (May 8, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Are you blind? I haven't said anything of the sort.


Already covered this.


> > Except that, if you have an inkling of the social, political and economic conditions *at the individual and collective levels* of the times, you'd realise that the KPD, even had they formed a united front with the SPD, wouldn't have been able to mobilise enough workers to stop the Nazis.
> 
> 
> Fair enough.  That's your position.  Don't agree one can be SO positive of that, but OK.


----------



## TremulousTetra (May 8, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> That a form of National Socialism, outwith the DAP/NSDAP, already existed, and that Hitler brought the various threads together, that outwith the NSDAP a rightist "national socialist" party would probably still have manifested, and that while a united front between the SPD and KPD might have been able to counter--balance a non-Hitlerite National Socialism, in the case of what actually occurred, the most likely result of active warfare (rather than the sporadic street-fighting that took place) between a united front and the Nazis would have meant the decimation (or worse) of the working class, especially given that the German Catholic church pushed it's adherents towards a right-political posture.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not "positive", I'm stating that, with what we know from analysis of historical records/data, testimony etc, the *probable* outcome would be what I said.


OK. "wouldn't have been able to mobilise enough workers to stop the Nazis"


----------



## Pickman's model (May 8, 2011)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> Already covered this.


link or stfu


----------



## TremulousTetra (May 8, 2011)

audiotech said:


> I made the cardinal mistake of posting after I came back from the pub.


No worries. At least I have another way to wind up BA now.    BTW, on that topic, have I told you about my website http://www.resistancemp3.org.uk/


----------



## Pickman's model (May 8, 2011)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> No worries. At least I have another way to wind up BA now.    BTW, on that topic, have I told you about my website http://www.resistancemp3.org.uk/


 no speeches from 2010 i see


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 8, 2011)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> Already covered this.


 
And the context of the rest of the post that came after the bit you quoted, hmm? Where I give reasons why a untied front would likely not have mobilised all SPD and KPD support?

You've covered nothing, except your fondness for selectively quoting.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 8, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> link or stfu


 
He's attempting to claim that I stated an absolute, rather than me having given fairly plain and easily discernable (if you've bothered to scratch the surface of the history of Weimar Germany) reasons why what he proposes would have been unlikely to work.


----------



## TremulousTetra (May 8, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> He's attempting to claim that I stated an absolute, rather than me having given fairly plain and easily discernable (if you've bothered to scratch the surface of the history of Weimar Germany) reasons why what he proposes would have been unlikely to work.


lol 
you did say  "wouldn't have been able to mobilise enough workers to stop the Nazis", but if your saying you mean't probably that's fine, I accept that.


----------



## TremulousTetra (May 8, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> And the context of the rest of the post that came after the bit you quoted, hmm? Where I give reasons why a untied front would likely not have mobilised all SPD and KPD support?
> 
> You've covered nothing, except your fondness for selectively quoting.


fine, if that is your position fine. I don't agree, but fine.

your post makes your position [and possibly BA's] sense, at last. only been waiting 7 years.   but hey ho.


----------



## TremulousTetra (May 8, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> no speeches from 2010 i see


don't worry. I'll make thread to announce when they're ready.


----------



## FreddyB (May 8, 2011)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> don't worry. I'll make thread to announce when they're ready.


 I suspect that he isn't worried at all.


----------



## TremulousTetra (May 8, 2011)

FreddyB said:


> I suspect that he isn't worried at all.


lol


----------



## dennisr (May 8, 2011)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> It is exactly the same as what the SWP says.



But it is the exact opposite of what the SWP does.


----------



## MellySingsDoom (May 8, 2011)

Meanwhile, in irrelevance trivia corner, Mr Nice Guy (Eddy Butler) hs just posted yet another eulogy of veteran NF racist Albert Mariner, who carked it after "negotiating" with a flying brick in 1983.  Doubtlessly to pin his colours to the true "nationalist mast, Eddy wants us all to remember his proper East End roots, was always there for the white race, who's this chancer Griffin etc.  Seeing as he's supporting the geriatric fascist Richard Edmonds in his BNP leadership bid, this is undoubtedly a play to the true believers that Nice Guy is a stand up man, and not one of these namby pamby "reformers" (even though he's been heavily involved with, er, BNP Reform).  So whilst the rest of us can chuckle, and await Griffin and Harrington to bring out "Attempted Murder 2", it' a timely reminder that even "nice" guys like Eddy are still unreformed racists and fascists, who aren't going away anytime soon.


----------



## Casually Red (May 8, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> That a form of National Socialism, outwith the DAP/NSDAP, already existed, and that Hitler brought the various threads together, that outwith the NSDAP a rightist "national socialist" party would probably still have manifested, and that while a united front between the SPD and KPD might have been able to counter--balance a non-Hitlerite National Socialism, in the case of what actually occurred, the most likely result of active warfare (rather than the sporadic street-fighting that took place) between a united front and the Nazis would have meant the decimation (or worse) of the working class, especially given that the German Catholic church pushed it's adherents towards a right-political posture.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not "positive", I'm stating that, with what we know from analysis of historical records/data, testimony etc, the *probable* outcome would be what I said, that even a united front couldn't have pulled together enough workers into participation in an active fight against Nazism.


 
i think thats purely specualative . A far right whose trajectory was based on unity and co -operation most definitely looked a much more atractive proposition to many than a left which was divided and at its each others throats . A united left with a common purpose and direction as regards fascism  would have been a much more formidable beast in my opinion .


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 8, 2011)

Casually Red said:


> i think thats purely specualative . A far right whose trajectory was based on unity and co -operation most definitely looked a much more atractive proposition to many than a left which was divided and at its each others throats . A united left with a common purpose and direction as regards fascism  would have been a much more formidable beast in my opinion .


 
I don't disagree that a united left would have been formidable, but there's not a whole lot of evidence to show that the SPD and KPD could have come together as a united front in the first place, and not because of the KPD's early refusal to engage in electoral politics either (which was when the greatest amount of friction took place between the two parties, at least up until Zörgiebel, but because of the SPD executive's myriad of problems over the life of Weimar with engaging in politics without losing their bottle and ceding political ground to the centre and the right. Too many of the hierarchy still had their heads in the late 19th century, and fell back into the old submissive ways that pertained under Bismarck.  While it can't be denied that the SPD made political advances under Weimar, it also can't be denied that they let in loads of easy saves, and too often left an open goal for their political opponents.


----------



## The39thStep (May 9, 2011)

Its like the 1930s in slow motion. Just as well the BNP moved on from 1930's models of fascism


----------



## The39thStep (May 9, 2011)

Just glanced at the BNP %s in the election I make it about 60 wards where they polled over 10%.  approx anpother 20 wards where either EDP, EFP, NF or any of the splinter groups got over 10%.


----------



## MellySingsDoom (May 9, 2011)

^^^Yup, even the openly fascist BPP didn't do too bad either (haven't got the figures to hand now, but David Jones polled 250+ voters, iirc).  Doubtlessly Searchlight et al will post it as "the end of fascist politics" again.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 9, 2011)

i don't think it's the end of fascist politics...

but...

when the bnp seemed to be on a roll a few years back this sort of result would have been an absolute disaster for them. but back then they could field fuck loads of candidates. i think what we're seeing is less a disappearance of the sentiment which can elect people from far-right parties, but a combination of different things. the bnp is struggling to field a large complement of candidates, and the problems within the party have, i believe, impacted on their vote - no one, after all, wants to vote for a party in the process of disintegration, as the lib dems have found out to their cost. 

a radical right populist party on the up could have achieved significantly better results than the bnp, bpp et al. 

what i believe the results show is that an initiative like the iwca could find a better reception now than it did in the 1990s. where in the past there was a greater stranglehold by the 'mainstream' parties than now, their monopoly is no longer so secure.


----------



## The Black Hand (May 9, 2011)

As predicted, the BNP paper tiger has wilted. Given that we have a very strong state while the conditions are not the same as the 1970s it looks like the far right are going to continue to huff and puff and deliver nothing, as they always have. 

Where does this leave the working class? Fragmented and divided, with limp political offerings from those who profess to want working class political progress. 

How do we get beyond the current impasse? Through unity in practice, through mass class struggles. ALL the parties/federations and groupings only offer a fractured view of class consciousness, and as such provide limited perspectives. There is a desperate need for a politics that encourages class formation and consciousness as a whole beyond and across group boundaries.


----------



## TremulousTetra (May 9, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> I don't disagree that a united left would have been formidable, but there's not a whole lot of evidence to show that the SPD and KPD could have come together as a united front in the first place, and not because of the KPD's early refusal to engage in electoral politics either (which was when the greatest amount of friction took place between the two parties, at least up until Zörgiebel, but because of the SPD executive's myriad of problems over the life of Weimar with engaging in politics without losing their bottle and ceding political ground to the centre and the right. Too many of the hierarchy still had their heads in the late 19th century, and fell back into the old submissive ways that pertained under Bismarck.  While it can't be denied that the SPD made political advances under Weimar, it also can't be denied that they let in loads of easy saves, and too often left an open goal for their political opponents.


It's not about the KPD relating to the hierarchy of the SDP, it's about "supporting them, like a rope supports a hanged man" to relate to, to influence the "Capitalist Workers" towards social revolution.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 9, 2011)

MellySingsDoom said:


> Meanwhile, in irrelevance trivia corner, Mr Nice Guy (Eddy Butler) hs just posted yet another eulogy of veteran NF racist Albert Mariner, who carked it after "negotiating" with a flying brick in 1983.  Doubtlessly to pin his colours to the true "nationalist mast, Eddy wants us all to remember his proper East End roots, was always there for the white race, who's this chancer Griffin etc.  Seeing as he's supporting the geriatric fascist Richard Edmonds in his BNP leadership bid, this is undoubtedly a play to the true believers that Nice Guy is a stand up man, and not one of these namby pamby "reformers" (even though he's been heavily involved with, er, BNP Reform).  So whilst the rest of us can chuckle, and await Griffin and Harrington to bring out "Attempted Murder 2", it' a timely reminder that even "nice" guys like Eddy are still unreformed racists and fascists, who aren't going away anytime soon.


 
Griffin and Harrington - even crapper than Little and Large.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 9, 2011)

The39thStep said:


> Just glanced at the BNP %s in the election I make it about 60 wards where they polled over 10%.  approx anpother 20 wards where either EDP, EFP, NF or any of the splinter groups got over 10%.


 
There could be a problem with this proliferation of _nudnik_ parties, in that because parties like the EDP and EFP have no *obvious* (to Joe and Joanna Public) historical baggage attached to them, they may garner some of their votes from people who think that they're a legitimate non-racist hard right alternative to the BNP (obviously, dig a little deeper, and some of these parties have people on board with histories of racism and fascism as long as yer arm).

I'm not so bothered that they're diluting the BNP vote, mind, just concerned that (despite being decried by Searchlight etc) they may be able to partially pass themselves off as "better than" the BNP.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 9, 2011)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> It's not about the KPD relating to the hierarchy of the SDP, it's about "supporting them, like a rope supports a hanged man" to relate to, to influence the "Capitalist Workers" towards social revolution.


 
That's a fine piece of rhetoric, but what do you believe that it would actually have to have been translated to (in terms of political action) in the concrete situation of Weimar Germany (taking into account the political situation _in toto_)?

You see, in the end, it's about human relations. It *is* as much about "the KPD relating to the hierarchy of the SDP [sic]" as it is about political and ideological relations, it can't be anything else, unless you assume that political relations exist in some kind of vacuum from everyday life.


----------



## Joe Reilly (May 9, 2011)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> So that is no isn't it? You are saying that the KPD workers should not have united with workers to the right of them to oppose fascism?



Uniting with workers to the right of them would have been accomplished by moving to the right themselves. Thus leaving even more room for the Nazis. Afterall what moving right means in terms of anti-fascism is passivity laced with cowardice and hypocrisy.


----------



## Sgt Howie (May 9, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> i don't think it's the end of fascist politics...
> 
> but...
> 
> ...


 
Excellent post - especially the bit in bold.


----------



## TremulousTetra (May 9, 2011)

ViolentPanda;11748815][QUOTE=Casually Red said:


> i think thats purely specualative . A far right whose trajectory was based on unity and co -operation most definitely looked a much more atractive proposition to many than a left which was divided and at its each others throats . A united left with a common purpose and direction as regards fascism  would have been a much more formidable beast in my opinion .


I don't disagree that a united left would have been formidable, but there's not a whole lot of evidence to show that the SPD and KPD could have come together as a united front in the first place, and not because of the KPD's early refusal to engage in electoral politics either (which was when the greatest amount of friction took place between the two parties, at least up until Zörgiebel, but because of the SPD executive's myriad of problems over the life of Weimar with engaging in politics without losing their bottle and ceding political ground to the centre and the right. Too many of the hierarchy still had their heads in the late 19th century, and fell back into the old submissive ways that pertained under Bismarck.  While it can't be denied that the SPD made political advances under Weimar, it also can't be denied that they let in loads of easy saves, and too often left an open goal for their political opponents. 





ResistanceMP3;11749406]It's not about the KPD relating to the hierarchy of the SDP said:


> That's a fine piece of rhetoric, but what do you believe that it would actually have to have been translated to (in terms of political action) in the concrete situation of Weimar Germany (taking into account the political situation _in toto_)?
> 
> You see, in the end, it's about human relations. It *is* as much about "the KPD relating to the hierarchy of the SDP [sic]" as it is about political and ideological relations, it can't be anything else, unless you assume that political relations exist in some kind of vacuum from everyday life.


 [/QUOTE]We have all agreed that;
1.	Any statement about what would happen in the Weimar Republic is A] pure speculation, no one can know for absolute sure. B] a moot point. Because what did happen, happened. 2.	If the left had been united in opposing fascism at the very least it could have provided a better opposition to the rise of fascism. And taking fascism as an option away from the ruling class could have led to,,,,, ?

The point I'm trying to make, and I assume casual as well, is nothing to do with the Weimar Republic, is to do with today. It's about learning the lessons about the mistakes the SDP and the KPD made, in order not to repeat them. 

There is probably as many things dividing the left today, as there were dividing the left in the Weimar Republic, but we should learn the lesson of history, and not repeat those mistakes, this one issue we need to unite in order to defend what we have got.


Now I'm sure you will come up with a very good argument why that is not possible. Why another option is your preferred. That's fine. It's okay to agree to disagree.


----------



## TremulousTetra (May 9, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> i don't think it's the end of fascist politics...
> 
> but...
> 
> ...


It's actually nice to agree with you. I think you're absolutely right. What's more, if even the BNP could shed fascist tag, they could yet be the party to fulfill that.  In my experience, with people I know it is generally only the fascist tag that holds them back from voting BNP.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 9, 2011)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> The point I'm trying to make, and I assume casual as well, is nothing to do with the Weimar Republic, is to do with today. It's about learning the lessons about the mistakes the SDP and the KPD made, in order not to repeat them.
> 
> There is probably as many things dividing the left today, as there were dividing the left in the Weimar Republic, but we should learn the lesson of history, and not repeat those mistakes, this one issue we need to unite in order to defend what we have got.



Depends on how you're making your argument - do you see Labour as the SPD, and the various left parties as the KPD? If so, given Labour's submission to neo-liberalism, the gulf is probably bigger now than it was then.
If, however, you're casting the SWP in the SPD role, and the other left groups as the KPD, then the gulf is a lot smaller, but is dependent on all sides finding a resolution, without in-fighting and other activities that would split the front.

I'd like to think that the left (in which I don't include the Labour party, for obvious reasons) could come together in a revolutionary situation, but "peacetime" experience of cooperation doesn't leave me too hopeful.



> Now I'm sure you will come up with a very good argument why that is not possible. Why another option is your preferred. That's fine. It's okay to agree to disagree.


 
Don't make assumptions about what I think or argue, there's a good boy.


----------



## audiotech (May 9, 2011)

Some figures posted. Haven't checked them for accuracy:



> BNP votes: 73,000
> Average % in wards: 7.8%
> They came last in 46% of contested seats.
> They came last or second to last in 72% of contested seats.
> They came first in just under 1% of contested seats


----------



## The39thStep (May 9, 2011)

The Black Hand said:


> As predicted, the BNP paper tiger has wilted. Given that we have a very strong state while the conditions are not the same as the 1970s it looks like the far right are going to continue to huff and puff and deliver nothing, as they always have.
> 
> Where does this leave the working class? Fragmented and divided, with limp political offerings from those who profess to want working class political progress.
> 
> How do we get beyond the current impasse? Through unity in practice, through mass class struggles. ALL the parties/federations and groupings only offer a fractured view of class consciousness, and as such provide limited perspectives. There is a desperate need for a politics that encourages class formation and consciousness as a whole beyond and across group boundaries.


 
When is the next edition of PRAXIS coming out?


----------



## The39thStep (May 9, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> i don't think it's the end of fascist politics...
> 
> but...
> 
> ...


 
Useful, point in the first para but is what you say re the monoploy of the mainstream parties correct? I still think its more a case of back to Labour in terms of opposition however Labours performance in this elections wasn't particularly good.


----------



## belboid (May 9, 2011)

The39thStep said:


> When is the next edition of PRAXIS coming out?


 
there was a group selling Praxis at Chesterfield MayDay this year.  Alongside their pamphlet on 'In Defense of the Taliban'


----------



## Pickman's model (May 9, 2011)

The39thStep said:


> Useful, point in the first para but is what you say re the monoploy of the mainstream parties correct? I still think its more a case of back to Labour in terms of opposition however Labours performance in this elections wasn't particularly good.


look at eg ukip or respect. while the ruc is effectively dead - thank fuck we will not see its like again - there was a chance that it could have cracked the mould of british politics even if it couldn't break it.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 9, 2011)

belboid said:


> there was a group selling Praxis at Chesterfield MayDay this year.  Alongside their pamphlet on 'In Defense of the Taliban'


defense? they were septics?


----------



## belboid (May 9, 2011)

i think they probably were


----------



## Pickman's model (May 9, 2011)

belboid said:


> i think they probably were


----------



## TremulousTetra (May 9, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Depends on how you're making your argument - do you see Labour as the SPD, and the various left parties as the KPD? If so, given Labour's submission to neo-liberalism, the gulf is probably bigger now than it was then.
> If, however, you're casting the SWP in the SPD role, and the other left groups as the KPD, then the gulf is a lot smaller, but is dependent on all sides finding a resolution, without in-fighting and other activities that would split the front.
> 
> I'd like to think that the left (in which I don't include the Labour party, for obvious reasons) could come together in a revolutionary situation, but "peacetime" experience of cooperation doesn't leave me too hopeful.


lol, no.





> Don't make assumptions about what I think or argue, there's a good
> 
> 
> boy.


thanks, old man.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 9, 2011)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> lol, no.



So what argument are you making with reference to "the lesson of history" (unity and the lack thereof)  that you want us to learn? You explain what point you're trying to make, or people will probably *assume* that you're calling for "the rest of the left" to unite under the SWP's guiding hand to fight fascism and achieve revolution.


----------



## The Black Hand (May 9, 2011)

The39thStep said:


> When is the next edition of PRAXIS coming out?


 
Do you mean; http://mayday-magazine.com/   ?

If so, it comes out when there's something useful to say I'm in no rush, I've never seen the point in producing magazines that are meant to be 'new' but in reality are so similar to what has gone before that they are effectively sterile. Infact I'm working too hard to think about writing or commissioning articles at the minute, which is a shame.


----------



## The Black Hand (May 9, 2011)

FreddyB said:


> In 2007 Griffin claimed they'd have control of Stoke within 5 years.


 Ha ha ha deluded fantasist fool.


----------



## The Black Hand (May 9, 2011)

Proper Tidy said:


> Nobody is saying to be antifascist you have to be a revolutionary socialist. But antifascism has to offer or lead to some sort of alternative, because people turn to the far right precisely because they are seeking a radical alternative to the centre. Antifascism that fails to offer or point to an alternative and instead appeals to the centre and establishment politics is worthless.


 


MellySingsDoom said:


> Somebody please staple this to the heads of Messrs Gable, Lowles, Collins, Bennett and Smith please.


 Whatever makes you think that any of them actually care?


----------



## The Black Hand (May 9, 2011)

The39thStep said:


> Just glanced at the BNP %s in the election I make it about 60 wards where they polled over 10%.  approx anpother 20 wards where either EDP, EFP, NF or any of the splinter groups got over 10%.


 
It is also true that the levels of the BNP vote have declined significantly. Generally in all wards and also in what can be seen as target wards - Down from relatively high 20%+ to under 20% in many of these wards.

That is not to say the general political situation has moved in our favour, it looks like the far right splinter and small groups are becoming more effective, & the general right wing conservative culture continues.


----------



## The39thStep (May 9, 2011)

The Black Hand said:


> It is also true that the levels of the BNP vote have declined significantly. Generally in all wards and also in what can be seen as target wards - Down from relatively high 20%+ to under 20% in many of these wards.
> 
> That is not to say the general political situation has moved in our favour, it looks like the far right splinter and small groups are becoming more effective, & the general right wing conservative culture continues.



remarkably sane point if underwhelming


----------



## TremulousTetra (May 9, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> So what argument are you making with reference to "the lesson of history" (unity and the lack thereof)  that you want us to learn? You explain what point you're trying to make, or people will probably *assume* that you're calling for "the rest of the left" to unite under the SWP's guiding hand to fight fascism and achieve revolution.


lol no.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 9, 2011)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> lol no.


 
Your reply makes no sense, you doughnut.

No change there, then.


----------



## LLETSA (May 9, 2011)

The Black Hand said:


> That is not to say the general political situation has moved in our favour, it looks like the far right splinter and small groups are becoming more effective, & the general right wing conservative culture continues.




Regardless of the rights and wrongs of anything else you might say, the general right wing conservative culture you refer to is imaginary. Culturally, there is no way that contemporary Britain could be considered right wing.


----------



## The Black Hand (May 10, 2011)

LLETSA said:


> Regardless of the rights and wrongs of anything else you might say, the general right wing conservative culture you refer to is imaginary. Culturally, there is no way that contemporary Britain could be considered right wing.


 
Nonsense. There were authentic independent cultures in the UK in the 19th century, working class cultures in the 20th, but now largely the cultural machine has been infested by capitalism, and what passes for politics is very capitalist status quo. In what sense can Britain NOT be right wing? It certainly doesn't encourage working class political change. 

There is a liberal ethos true, but I didn't think you would like them Letty, and Littlejohn really slagged them in todays Mail - 'The 4 areas of the country which voted for Av were Guardianista heaven - Oxford, Cambridge etc'. Its certainly small enough and politically insignificant at present, and likely to be squeezed further in these 'class against class times' (the feel and spirit of the present age).

So, at the very best your comment is misleading, and there is enough evidence to plainly say that you are wrong here Letsa.Apologies.


----------



## The39thStep (May 11, 2011)

Beggars belief that being 'liberal' and for AV  is somehow seen by you as being a rallying point against the system. Britain is a capitalist system with  a total lack of economic democracy but a strong emphasis on individual rights . Ironically the latter underpins the the former.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 11, 2011)

The39thStep said:


> Beggars belief that being 'liberal' and for AV  is somehow seen by you as being a rallying point against the system. Britain is a capitalist system with  a total lack of economic democracy but a strong emphasis on individual rights . Ironically the latter underpins the the former.


 
i don't think he said that


----------



## The Black Hand (May 11, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> i don't think he said that


 
Quite right Pickman.


----------



## LLETSA (May 11, 2011)

The Black Hand said:


> Nonsense. There were authentic independent cultures in the UK in the 19th century, working class cultures in the 20th, but now largely the cultural machine has been infested by capitalism, and what passes for politics is very capitalist status quo. In what sense can Britain NOT be right wing? It certainly doesn't encourage working class political change.
> 
> There is a liberal ethos true, but I didn't think you would like them Letty, and Littlejohn really slagged them in todays Mail - 'The 4 areas of the country which voted for Av were Guardianista heaven - Oxford, Cambridge etc'. Its certainly small enough and politically insignificant at present, and likely to be squeezed further in these 'class against class times' (the feel and spirit of the present age).
> 
> So, at the very best your comment is misleading, and there is enough evidence to plainly say that you are wrong here Letsa.Apologies.


 




Capitalism doesn't necessary equal a right-wing culture, and by no stretch of the imagination do we have one in this country right now. As we are seeing, there can be a liberal cultural climate that's even less conducive to 'working class political change,' than a conservative one. In fact, most of the left, having quietly given up the attempt at an alternative to capitalism, is focused on 'defending' liberal Britain. 

So it's actually you that's wrong. Again.


----------



## LLETSA (May 11, 2011)

The39thStep said:


> Beggars belief that being 'liberal' and for AV  is somehow seen by you as being a rallying point against the system. Britain is a capitalist system with  a total lack of economic democracy but a strong emphasis on individual rights . Ironically the latter underpins the the former.


 
And most people, regardless of what they believe politically, now subscribe to a phoney, media-prompted individualism. Just look at the way even the self-styled radical libertarians on boards like this simply repeat the commonplace notions of the day.


----------



## The39thStep (May 11, 2011)

The Black Hand said:


> Quite right Pickman.


----------



## The39thStep (May 11, 2011)

The BNP statement on their election results was actually quite amusing , it begins 'Let's be honest. The results for the British National Party in the recent election were pretty dire.' and then goes on to say 'Bad though our results were, can you imagine how you would feel if you were a Liberal Democrat?'


----------



## The Black Hand (May 12, 2011)

LLETSA said:


> Capitalism doesn't necessary equal a right-wing culture, and by no stretch of the imagination do we have one in this country right now. As we are seeing, there can be a liberal cultural climate that's even less conducive to 'working class political change,' than a conservative one. In fact, most of the left, having quietly given up the attempt at an alternative to capitalism, is focused on 'defending' liberal Britain.
> 
> So it's actually you that's wrong. Again.


 Sorry letsa, we disagree. What liberal cultural climate there is, exists alongside a right wing one, you are just in denial, focusing to heavily on your usual target,  the crap left. Its plainly wrong to dismiss the imperial and racist right wing climate that clearly exists.


----------



## The Black Hand (May 12, 2011)

The39thStep said:


>


 
Thats U and letty!


----------



## LLETSA (May 12, 2011)

The Black Hand said:


> Sorry letsa, we disagree. What liberal cultural climate there is, exists alongside a right wing one, you are just in denial, focusing to heavily on your usual target,  the crap left. Its plainly wrong to dismiss the imperial and racist right wing climate that clearly exists.




I'm not denying that right-wing sentiment exists; I just don't think it's culturally dominant. 

And plenty of people are racist or supportive of, for example, British military interventions without being particularly right wing in any meaningful sense.


----------



## sihhi (May 12, 2011)

LLETSA said:


> And most people, regardless of what they believe politically, now subscribe to a phoney, *media-prompted individualism.* Just look at the way even the self-styled radical libertarians on boards like this simply repeat the commonplace notions of the day.





You mean like the right of individuals to smoke the tobacco they've bought in pubs?


----------



## past caring (May 12, 2011)




----------



## Spanky Longhorn (May 12, 2011)

He shoots he scores


----------



## The39thStep (May 12, 2011)

Apparantly BNP are now anti tesco as well as being anti war.


----------



## MellySingsDoom (May 12, 2011)

The39thStep said:


> Apparantly BNP are now anti tesco as well as being anti war.


 
They've probably jumped back on the "Tesco Jews" bandwagon as beloved by anti-Semites and conspiraloons.  Now what are the chances of that happening?


----------



## The39thStep (May 12, 2011)

MellySingsDoom said:


> They've probably jumped back on the "Tesco Jews" bandwagon as beloved by anti-Semites and conspiraloons.  Now what are the chances of that happening?


 
The are playing it with a straight bat of protecting local traders etc etc. There isn't much mileage in blatant anti semitism for the BNP.


----------



## MellySingsDoom (May 12, 2011)

The39thStep said:


> The are playing it with a straight bat of protecting local traders etc etc. There isn't much mileage in blatant anti semitism for the BNP.


 
This being the BNP who've got a piss poor record with not paying local suppliers, services and so on?  Oh dear.  I know the general public aren't in on the BNP's Arthur Daley-like dealings, but still....well, we'll see how successful their "local trade" campaign is in due course.


----------



## LLETSA (May 13, 2011)

sihhi said:


> You mean like the right of individuals to smoke the tobacco they've bought in pubs?





No, I mean that people's attitudes generally are off-the-peg. How can it possibly be otherwise when we all compulsorily drink from the same trough?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 13, 2011)

LLETSA said:


> No, I mean that people's attitudes generally are off-the-peg. How can it possibly be otherwise when we all compulsorily drink from the same trough?


 
oh dear. i took you off ignore thinking there may have been some improvement in your posts. not much of a surprise but still something of a disappointment.


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Jun 7, 2011)

Quick heads-up for the Urbans - this is strictly minor-league fare really, but these two videos show the "interesting" relationships amongst the BNP "top table" - meltdown, anyone?  (They are lengthy videos, by the way):


----------



## Fedayn (Jun 7, 2011)

MellySingsDoom said:


> Quick heads-up for the Urbans - this is strictly minor-league fare really, but these two videos show the "interesting" relationships amongst the BNP "top table" - meltdown, anyone?  (They are lengthy videos, by the way):




That sounds very much like Richard Edmunds at the back asking about the plenary session during the 1st video.


----------



## love detective (Jun 7, 2011)

looks like him as well!


----------



## Fedayn (Jun 7, 2011)

love detective said:


> looks like him as well!


 
Doesn't it just..... Hadn't got to that part...


----------



## Fedayn (Jun 7, 2011)

That's quite an interesting meeting....


----------



## claphamboy (Jun 8, 2011)

MellySingsDoom said:


> Quick heads-up for the Urbans - this is strictly minor-league fare really, but these two videos show the "interesting" relationships amongst the BNP "top table" - meltdown, anyone?  (They are lengthy videos, by the way):



Good find! It was clear the troubles within the BNP went to the highest levels, but to actually be able to watch a party get together like that, where Brons is clearly coming down on the side of the BNP Reform Group and Griffin is losing the plot completely is simply marvelous to witness.



Fedayn said:


> That sounds very much like Richard Edmunds at the back asking about the plenary session during the 1st video.



Edmonds, of course, attended the first national conference of BNP Reform Group last year and is appealing for nominations on their website for his leadership challenge. **(see ETA below)

It should be interesting to see what happens over Edmonds leadership challenge, firstly as to whether, as I suspect, Griffin will start expelling even more members because of their support for Edmonds and/or against Griffin continuing as Chairman.

Secondly, when Edmonds fails in his challenge just how many more members, and more importantly active members, that are just hanging in there decides to finally fuck off.

In particular it will be interesting to see what Brons does, I get the feeling he's trying to position himself to lead any new party that could be established. 

I see on the BNP Reform Group's website that in a poll asking if they should start a new party or reform the BNP, about 55% supports starting a new party, although this is based on only 301 votes.

Certainly interesting times.

** ETA: Oh hang, this isn't on the main bnpreform.com site, but on bnpreform2011.co.uk site, which looks totally different - are there 2 reform groups now?


----------



## audiotech (Jun 8, 2011)

I see that Beverley (now EDP) at one point was whispering in Bron's shell like?


----------



## Fedayn (Jun 8, 2011)

Beverley still works for Brons in the Euro Parlianent.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 9, 2011)

Meanwhile Barnbrook has propsed unity talks betwen BNP, UKIP and EDP . Nationalism without Griffin.


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Jun 9, 2011)

The39thStep said:


> Meanwhile Barnbrook has propsed unity talks betwen BNP, UKIP and EDP . Nationalism without Griffin.



A non-Griffin BNP/EDP I can easily see happening.  Would UKIP want to join that?  Hmm, perhaps some UKIP members would be amenable to that, but what about the Farage, I wonder - would he be happy on an idealogical as well as practical level to thrown in his lot with the BNP and EDP?


----------



## FreddyB (Jun 9, 2011)

I can't see UKIP wanting anything to do with it. They've got members with ideas and aims that chime with the BNP but sizeable proportion of their soft support voter base are anti EU no more, no less and they know it.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 9, 2011)

The39thStep said:


> Meanwhile Barnbrook has propsed unity talks betwen BNP, UKIP and EDP . Nationalism without Griffin.


 
Oh dear, another abandonment of the _führerprinzip_.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Jun 9, 2011)

FreddyB said:


> I can't see UKIP wanting anything to do with it. They've got members with ideas and aims that chime with the BNP but sizeable proportion of their soft support voter base are anti EU no more, no less and they know it.



Yep UKiP are a funny bunch to say the least and a substantial section of their active support are genuinely former supporters of Tories, Libdems, and Labour who while having many dodgy and/or rightwing views find the far-right objectionable to say the least.


----------



## frogwoman (Jun 9, 2011)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> Yep UKiP are a funny bunch to say the least and a substantial section of their active support are genuinely former supporters of Tories, Libdems, and Labour who while having many dodgy and/or rightwing views find the far-right objectionable to say the least.


 
yep.


----------



## claphamboy (Jun 9, 2011)

& yep, again.

I know a couple of UKIP members, funny old buggers both of them, but they would soon dump UKIP if it got in bed with the BNP.

Besides UKIP gets far more votes based on the anti-EU policy, why would they risk losing their [semi] mainstream support by hooking up with out & out racists?

I know fuck all about the English Democratic Party, but with ex-BNPers joining them I guess there's a chance of sucking them in, maybe also the out and out nutters in the British People's Party and the *slightly* [so it appears] less nutty and new British Freedom Party, but lets face it both the BBP & BFP are tiny.

My gut feeling is the days of the BNP as a growing force, threatening even to become a fairly mainstream party, are over - it will take many years, if ever, to build a far-right party back to the *high* levels we were seeing them achieve not long ago.

For that, I thank Griffin.


----------



## claphamboy (Jun 9, 2011)

I've just googled the English Democratic Party, is this - englishdemocraticparty.org.uk - serious?

FREEDOM FIGHTERS FOR A FREE PEOPLE AND A FREE WORLD 
- DEFENDERS inc - ALEX JONES-PRISONPLANET.COM & DAVID ICKE 
- DESTROYERS inc - ILLUMINATI & NEW WORLD ORDER

Did Jazzz set this lot up or is he just a member?

EDIT:

Oh, OK, there's the English Democrats Party and the English Democratic Party/English Freedom Party, very confusing.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Jun 9, 2011)

Isn't Gary Bushell a member? At the very least he's written favourably about them. What happened to him by the way? He used to be a bit of a lefty didn't he?


----------



## claphamboy (Jun 9, 2011)

SpineyNorman said:


> Isn't Gary Bushell a member?


 
Or was...



> 2008
> [edit] London mayoral election
> 
> In July 2007 Garry Bushell was nominated as Mayoral candidate for The English Democrats for the 2008 London mayoral and Assembly elections with the campaign slogan "Serious About London".[22] In January 2008 Bushell stepped down as the Mayoral candidate due to work commitments and Fathers 4 Justice founder Matt O'Connor was selected by The English Democrats in his place with his campaign expected to start on 14 February. His campaign web site voteenglish.org was launched on 31 January 2008.[23][24] A Party political broadcast for O'Connor's campaign was broadcast on 11 April.
> ...


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Jun 9, 2011)

The English Democrats used to look like a bunch of harmless bar room Tory cranks, now it does look they've been increasingly drawn to and absorbed by the fascist right.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 9, 2011)

There is plenty or room for a nationalist party to grow.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Jun 9, 2011)

The39thStep said:


> There is plenty or room for a nationalist party to grow.



There's no doubt that there is substantial space for a populist, nationalist, racist movement/party to exist and help spread core far right ideas, despite the massive weaknesses in the BNP and EDL.


----------



## audiotech (Jun 9, 2011)

The people needed to sustain any movement, as above, are in the tory party, where they will be staying put.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 9, 2011)

audiotech said:


> The people needed to sustain any movement, as above, are in the tory party, where they will be staying put.



Why the Tory party when most research show that it was Labour that was most susceptible to the BNP than the Tories?


----------



## audiotech (Jun 9, 2011)

Research did indicate that, but I don't think that undermines the point I made?
Organisers of some ability are needed to sustain a movement.
Some stating in a survey that they would vote for it doesn't necessary sustain it.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 9, 2011)

audiotech said:


> Research did indicate that, but I don't think that undermines the point I made?
> Organisers of some ability are needed to sustain a movement.
> Some stating in a survey that they would vote for it doesn't necessary sustain it.


 
Lets just correct the mistaken belief that this is some survey about intentThe proof in the pudding was that ex labour voters did vote BNP rather than said they might in some survey and that it was the Labour heartlands which were hit the most. 

There is no evidence to suggest that their organisers are drawn from ex Tories nor is there to say that such people would be drawn from the Tories . The uncomfortable reality is that fascism and nationalism attracts sections of the working class and not just Tories.


----------



## audiotech (Jun 9, 2011)

I never said 'their [BNP] organisors are drawn from ex tories', nevertheless, some have been.

Anyway, I'm not talking about the BNP. I was under the impression that some posters here were talking about the possibility of another brand of 'populist, nationalist, racist movement/party' being set-up and sustained?


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 9, 2011)

audiotech said:


> I never said 'their [BNP] organisors are drawn from ex tories', nevertheless, some have been.
> 
> Anyway, I'm not talking about the BNP. I was under the impression that some posters here were talking about the possibility of another brand of 'populist, nationalist, racist movement/party' being set-up and sustained?


 
They are but I think that this was in the context of my post about Barnbrooks unity call which essentially is nationalism  without Griffin.


----------



## audiotech (Jun 10, 2011)

And brand BNP?


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 10, 2011)

audiotech said:


> And brand BNP?


 
If it ever came off then probably although I suspect that there is more to barnbrooks unity call than meets the eye


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Jun 10, 2011)

audiotech said:


> I never said 'their [BNP] organisors are drawn from ex tories', nevertheless, some have been.
> 
> Anyway, I'm not talking about the BNP. I was under the impression that some posters here were talking about the possibility of another brand of 'populist, nationalist, racist movement/party' being set-up and sustained?



Did I say another brand?


----------



## audiotech (Jun 10, 2011)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> Did I say another brand?


 
No, you said 'another'. As I posted, I was under the impression that's what you meant?


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Jun 10, 2011)

audiotech said:


> No, you said 'another'.


 
No I didn't.


----------



## audiotech (Jun 10, 2011)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> No I didn't.



I misread that (iritis flare-up), my apologies.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Jun 10, 2011)

No problem. 

For what it's worth, while I think the potential support (including active support) is there now, I agree that the organisational ability is not yet there, being scattered as it is among various groupings and larger parties, or in none.

Still that could change at any minute, and I still wouldn't quite write off the BNP yet.


----------



## where to (Jun 10, 2011)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> Still that could change at any minute, and I still wouldn't quite write off the BNP yet.


 
people badly wrote off the FN in France in the last 3 years or so.  bankrupt, down to 10%, worse in the Euro Elections iirc.  

then Le Pens stood down, replaced by his (more moderate appearing) daughter.

she is now at their highest ever for a presidential poll.  things turned in a matter of months.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Jun 10, 2011)

I think another big scandal involving the mainstream parties (especially now the Lib Dems aren't seen as a protest vote) could do it for them, especially as there's no real credible left alternative at the moment. Although I'd say UKIP are probably better placed to take advantage than the BNP.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 11, 2011)

Brons has now thrown his hat in the ring  with Edmonds stepping down. Can't help thinking that there is so much dirt on both these two from the past that there are dark forces at work.


----------



## claphamboy (Jun 12, 2011)

Well Brons certainly has a better chance than Edmonds of winning, he also has a better chance of pulling things back together, so lets hope the Griffin manages to hold on as Chairman.

I see Griffin is up to his usual tricks, a new constitution was voted on at the party conference last year and was due to be put to a Extraordinary General Meeting of the members, but the main proposals have been totally changed from what the conference voted for and what is now proposed for the EGM. 

For example the proposed new National Executive, replacing the fully appointed Advisory Council, was due to be fully elected (indirectly by local & regional branches) and have real power, including the ability of getting rid of the Chairman (with a 75% majority vote).

This has changed to the Chairman appointing 16 (rises to 17 with the chairman included) out of 29 officers, leaving a minority to be elected. It also makes the National Executive just an advisory one, with no power to remove the Chairman, who would serve a 5-year fixed term with no way of getting shot of them.

Griffin certainly seems to want to keep total control of the party.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 12, 2011)

claphamboy said:


> Well Brons certainly has a better chance than Edmonds of winning, he also has a better chance of pulling things back together, so lets hope the Griffin manages to hold on as Chairman.
> 
> I see Griffin is up to his usual tricks, a new constitution was voted on at the party conference last year and was due to be put to a Extraordinary General Meeting of the members, but the main proposals have been totally changed from what the conference voted for and what is now proposed for the EGM.
> 
> ...


 
Brons like re, has chance.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Jun 12, 2011)




----------



## The39thStep (Jun 12, 2011)

claphamboy said:


> Well Brons certainly has a better chance than Edmonds of winning, he also has a better chance of pulling things back together, so lets hope the Griffin manages to hold on as Chairman.
> 
> I see Griffin is up to his usual tricks, a new constitution was voted on at the party conference last year and was due to be put to a Extraordinary General Meeting of the members, but the main proposals have been totally changed from what the conference voted for and what is now proposed for the EGM.
> 
> ...


 

Why wouldn't he?


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 12, 2011)

Spanky Longhorn said:


>


 
Opps, missed out the 'no.'

_Brons like re, has no chance._


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Jun 12, 2011)

It was the re bit I didn't get, you meant Richard Edmonds of course...


----------



## Greenfish (Jun 12, 2011)

Tin hat time, but there'll be this problem all the while we have an immigration policy like the one we have - huge, huge demographic changes across the country, particularly aimed at traditionally white working class areas. I have no idea how you would solve this - I am neither for or against mass immigration, I don't know enough about it, but I know it's a particular problem for those on the left have with just totally ignoring the fact of 100ks of people coming into communities every year and expect there to be zero fall out from the people living there. And people wonder why left wing politics is slowly becoming the preserve of  the white middle class.  They have got this massively wrong. The answer? No idea.


----------



## audiotech (Jun 12, 2011)

Greenfish said:


> Tin hat time, but there'll be this problem all the while we have an immigration policy like the one we have - huge, huge demographic changes across the country, particularly aimed at traditionally white working class areas. I have no idea how you would solve this - I am neither for or against mass immigration, I don't know enough about it, but I know it's a particular problem for those on the left have with just totally ignoring the fact of 100ks of people coming into communities every year and expect there to be zero fall out from the people living there. And people wonder why left wing politics is slowly becoming the preserve of  white educated liberals.  They have got this massively wrong. The answer? No idea.



It will be all change now there's 'workfare', so instead of immigrants being exploited to the max, the unemployed will now feel the benefit (pun intended) of this.


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## The39thStep (Jun 12, 2011)

not sure that I understand the impact of this ^


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## SpineyNorman (Jun 12, 2011)

I think he's saying that employers won't need cheap migrant labour if they can get "doleys" to work for them for free, and so there won't be the same influx of migrant workers into w/c areas. Not sure I agree though. I don't think people on workfare will be employed in the same private sector jobs as economic migrants have been. My understanding is that people on workfare will be set to work on things like street cleanups, stuff that's been done by the public sector in the past.


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## audiotech (Jun 12, 2011)

I watched a recent discussion with a panel of most of the organisations to be involved in 'workfare' and this aspect was talked about. It was mentioned that rather than it being about a group having "better motivation" leading to say Eastern Europeans putting themselves forward for fruit/veg picking jobs, it was more to do with economic reasons why local workers don't apply for this sort of work - low pay, short-term contracts and the inflexibility of the benefit system. There was talk too about the unemployed working for sole traders and small businesses. Alleviates bureaucracy for them apparently and may lead their businesses to expand to a point when they can take on more permanent staff and by doing so creating employment.


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## SpineyNorman (Jun 12, 2011)

Was it a an online video? If you have a link I'd be interested in having a look.


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Jun 13, 2011)

A piece on the fallout between Brons and Griffin:

http://lancasteruaf.blogspot.com/2011/06/bnp-gets-ready-to-rumble.html

With regard to "room for a far right party to grow" - I aint sure, as others have saidthe BNP screw up seems to be in place for at least the medium term. If we can hoof out Griffin in 2014 then it's curtains in any meaningful sense. Replacements will take 2 steps forward, 1 back. Endless rows and being tainted by racism will persist. Populist right wingery with a tint of migration skepticism could do well. Step forward UKIP who are, as again said elsewhere, just not as offensive as the BNP or seen that way. What UKIP have on the mainstream in the migration issue is that it is the EU which determines much of policy in this area. The EU is a crock in many ways so UKIP are knocking at an open door. Obviously they only seek to replace the percieved tyranny of the EU with even more reliance on the tyranny of capitalist markets, but that's detail.


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## The39thStep (Jun 13, 2011)

There is an article on Lancaster Unity placed by 'anti fascist' which quotes a spokesperson from Hizb ut-Tahrir !


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## audiotech (Jun 13, 2011)

SpineyNorman said:


> Was it a an online video? If you have a link I'd be interested in having a look.



Drat, can't find it now. I'll have another look.

Interestingly, it was also pointed out that working for benefits, as in the Australian model, with a 80 percent failure rate, is very expensive and takes time away from those seeking work. Instead it was stated it was more efficient to focus on 'using the stick of seeking work' on JSA benefit claimants


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## audiotech (Jun 13, 2011)

The39thStep said:


> There is an article on Lancaster Unity placed by 'anti fascist' which quotes a spokesperson from Hizb ut-Tahrir !



Somewhat disingenuous of you, as it's an article from _The Independent_ newspaper, which also quotes a spokesperson of largest mainstream Muslim organisation, The Muslim Council of Britain (MCB). Also quoted is Dr Lambert, a former counter-terrorism police officer, Ghaffar Hussain of the counter-extremism think-tank Quilliam and Mohammed Khaliel, who was reportedly "...among horrified families who discovered Muslim graves at a local cemetery had been desecrated."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/muslims-call-for-action-against-hate-crimes-2296477.html


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 13, 2011)

Greenfish said:


> Tin hat time, but there'll be this problem all the while we have an immigration policy like the one we have - huge, huge demographic changes across the country, particularly aimed at traditionally white working class areas...



Slow, slow demographic changes that have taken 30+ to actually manifest meaningfully.
The reason it's slow?
Even now, the "ethnic+" population of the UK tops out at about 8% of of the total. That's 5 and a half million or so people spread throughout the UK.

*Including eastern and central Europeans.



> I have no idea how you would solve this - I am neither for or against mass immigration, I don't know enough about it, but I know it's a particular problem for those on the left have with just totally ignoring the fact of 100ks of people coming into communities every year and expect there to be zero fall out from the people living there.



Pathetic. The issue isn't about the left's attitude, or indeed the right's attitude to immigration, although obviously you're trying to make it the issue even *after* you've admitted that you "don't know enough about it".

The issue is resources. If, as has happened in the UK since Thatcher, you have an ever-shrinking social housing supply, and public services are under sporadic periods of "boom" (with *relative* ease of funding acquisition) and "bust" (where funding is steeply restricted, whether for economic or ideological reasons), then of course there's "fallout".



> And people wonder why left wing politics is slowly becoming the preserve of  the white middle class.  They have got this massively wrong. The answer? No idea.


 
That much is obvious.


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 13, 2011)

SpineyNorman said:


> I think he's saying that employers won't need cheap migrant labour if they can get "doleys" to work for them for free, and so there won't be the same influx of migrant workers into w/c areas. Not sure I agree though. I don't think people on workfare will be employed in the same private sector jobs as economic migrants have been. My understanding is that people on workfare will be set to work on things like street cleanups, stuff that's been done by the public sector in the past.


 
It's right-tinged wishful thinking bollocks that entirely elides the state's role in the issues.


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## FreddyB (Jun 13, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> *The issue is resources.* If, as has happened in the UK since Thatcher, you have an ever-shrinking social housing supply, and public services are under sporadic periods of "boom" (with *relative* ease of funding acquisition) and "bust" (where funding is steeply restricted, whether for economic or ideological reasons), then of course there's "fallout".



This can't be emphasised enough. The only time race becomes an issue is where it's made into an issue - See Kenan Malik's essayHow to make a Riot for a brilliant explanation of political multiculturalism and the racialisation of service provision. 

People care about resources, access to and reliance on public resources are class issues. Tackling issues on that basis is the only way forward, getting bogged down in the race game is the mistake that the right make - they're the other side of the political multiculturalism coin. Class, class, class. It's literally the answer to everything.


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## audiotech (Jun 13, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> It's right-tinged wishful thinking bollocks that entirely elides the state's role in the issues.



I think 'workfare' on the Australian model (a reality there) is indeed wishful thinking, as the costs are too great, however, for those on Employment Support Allowance (ESA) "work related activity" to "support them back into work" is here now.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 13, 2011)

audiotech said:


> Somewhat disingenuous of you, as it's an article from _The Independent_ newspaper, which also quotes a spokesperson of largest mainstream Muslim organisation, The Muslim Council of Britain (MCB). Also quoted is Dr Lambert, a former counter-terrorism police officer, Ghaffar Hussain of the counter-extremism think-tank Quilliam and Mohammed Khaliel, who was reportedly "...among horrified families who discovered Muslim graves at a local cemetery had been desecrated."
> 
> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/muslims-call-for-action-against-hate-crimes-2296477.html



Nothing disingenuous of me at all. The article , which is lifted without any comment what so ever, quotes Hizb ut-Tahrir. Not sure if you have ever come across this group otherwise you would also find the fact that their views are posted withoput any comment very surprising. Unless the role of Lanacster Unity is now simply to cut and paste articles without any comment.


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## The39thStep (Jun 13, 2011)

FreddyB said:


> This can't be emphasised enough. The only time race becomes an issue is where it's made into an issue - See Kenan Malik's essayHow to make a Riot for a brilliant explanation of political multiculturalism and the racialisation of service provision.
> 
> People care about resources, access to and reliance on public resources are class issues. Tackling issues on that basis is the only way forward, getting bogged down in the race game is the mistake that the right make - they're the other side of the political multiculturalism coin. Class, class, class. It's literally the answer to everything.


 
Good post and a view that is not always popular on here when race/culture silo funding has been criticised for exactly that


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## Greenfish (Jun 13, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Slow, slow demographic changes that have taken 30+ to actually manifest meaningfully.
> The reason it's slow?
> Even now, the "ethnic+" population of the UK tops out at about 8% of of the total. That's 5 and a half million or so people spread throughout the UK.
> 
> ...


 
So your answer to the massive, nationwide issue with mass-immigration is "there should be more resources" - that's what you implying, that if we just had more social services such as houses, etc, then the problem would just vanish?


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## SpineyNorman (Jun 13, 2011)

Lack of houses, services, etc. *is* the problem.


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## Greenfish (Jun 13, 2011)

SpineyNorman said:


> Lack of houses, services, etc. *is* the problem.



so mass immigration is fine as long as we have more services? 

You would justify, say, a million people entering the UK every year as long as there was enough services to provide for them?


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## audiotech (Jun 13, 2011)

The39thStep said:


> Nothing disingenuous of me at all. The article , which is lifted without any comment what so ever, quotes Hizb ut-Tahrir. Not sure if you have ever come across this group otherwise you would also find the fact that their views are posted withoput any comment very surprising. Unless the role of Lanacster Unity is now simply to cut and paste articles without any comment.



I have come across and know about this group, nonetheless, the article in question is not specifically about Hizb ut-Tahrir, nor is it supporting them. If you feel so strongly about _Lancaster Unity_ posting a lengthy article from _The Independent_, that includes a three line quote from said organisation, then I suggest you post your feelings in LU's comments section.


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## SpineyNorman (Jun 13, 2011)

Greenfish said:


> so mass immigration is fine as long as we have more services?
> 
> You would justify, say, a million people entering the UK every year as long as there was enough services to provide for them?


 
Resources, yes. Why not? But given this hypothetical situation is never likely to happen it's a bit of a non-issue, isn't it?


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 13, 2011)

Greenfish said:


> So your answer to the massive, nationwide issue with mass-immigration is "there should be more resources" - that's what you implying, that if we just had more social services such as houses, etc, then the problem would just vanish?


 
As you're obviously not too quick on the uptake, I'll state things more simply than in my previous answer.

1) there isn't "mass immigration". Even those twats at "Migrationwatch" acknowledge that if you take the (usually transient, 85%+ of them return to their state of origin within 4 years) "immigrants" from the EU accession countries out of the picture, immigration isn't a problem in the way you're implying.

2) The biggest problem is that a naturally-expanding (through birth-rates currently out-stripping death-rates) sector of the legitimate population are competing for a static or *dwindling* pot of social resources.

3) The biggest immigration issue is the failure of 30 years-worth of governments failing to tackle *illegal* immigration, which undercuts employment opportunities for "natives" and legal immigrants. Ever wonder why that is? Here's a hint: Do a bit of research into companies that donate to the three big political parties, then cross-check with companies that have been done for being *caught* employing illegals. Good old Thatch decimated Customs and Excise in the '80s and made people-smuggling easier than at any time since the end of the 19th century.

4) It's not an issue of "Left" or "right". There's barely a fag-paper's difference between parliamentary "left" and "right", and the extra-parliamentary left and right have no power. Tossing the blame back and forth between one bunch of cunts who do something one way, and another bunch of cunts who do the same thing another way has fuck all to do with "left" or "right", and everything to do with those in power passing the buck.

5) I'm not implying that problems will vanish, given more resources, I'm *stating* that the degree of problem would lessen, as would frictions and tensions.


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 13, 2011)

SpineyNorman said:


> Lack of houses, services, etc. *is* the problem.


 
You'd still have social tensions. They're inescapable, but there'd be far less scope for them reaching crisis point.


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 13, 2011)

Greenfish said:


> so mass immigration is fine as long as we have more services?
> 
> You would justify, say, a million people entering the UK every year as long as there was enough services to provide for them?


 
How many people will have left the UK in this year of a million immigrants?


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## audiotech (Jun 13, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> How many people will have left the UK in this year of a million immigrants?



It's bizarre to hear those bleating about leaving Britain because of immigration, now being actual immigrants themselves in Spain and btw not in the main integrating, speaking the language etc. Ole!


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 13, 2011)

audiotech said:


> It's bizarre to hear those bleating about leaving Britain because of immigration, now being actual immigrants themselves in Spain and btw not in the main integrating, speaking the language etc. Ole!



Well, quite!

My point is that some people focus exclusively on how "loads" of immigrants are "coming here", without ever bothering to reflect on the size of the differential between emigration and immigration, and often without reflecting on the permanency (or otherwise) of those emigrants and immigrants. To focus only on the one thing is either deliberate blindness, or ignorance.


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## audiotech (Jun 13, 2011)

audiotech said:


> I think 'workfare' on the Australian model (a reality there) is indeed wishful thinking, as the costs are too great, however, for those on Employment Support Allowance (ESA) "work related activity" to "support them back into work" is here now.



Spoke too soon, as here we have Labour's policy review chief, Liam Byrne, planning to make unemployed benefit claimants work harder to find a job. These, based on 'new ideas, drawn from the Australian prime minister Julia Gillard'. Presently, for every vacancy there's 5.3 applicants.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/jun/13/jobless-have-to-try-harder-says-labour.

Sorry, didn't mean to de-rail. I'll take it to the other thread on this.


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## Stay Beautiful (Jun 13, 2011)

FreddyB said:


> This can't be emphasised enough. The only time race becomes an issue is where it's made into an issue - See Kenan Malik's essayHow to make a Riot for a brilliant explanation of political multiculturalism and the racialisation of service provision.
> 
> People care about resources, access to and reliance on public resources are class issues. Tackling issues on that basis is the only way forward, getting bogged down in the race game is the mistake that the right make - they're the other side of the political multiculturalism coin. Class, class, class. It's literally the answer to everything.


 
I agree with the point on resources but the original poster also has a point. Some previously relatively homogeneous areas have been/are being changed rapidly by immigration. In the same way the tensions would be lessened through better resources, they would also be lessened if things had been slowly down a lot while everyone got used to each other.


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## The39thStep (Jun 13, 2011)

audiotech said:


> I have come across and know about this group, nonetheless, the article in question is not specifically about Hizb ut-Tahrir, nor is it supporting them. If you feel so strongly about _Lancaster Unity_ posting a lengthy article from _The Independent_, that includes a three line quote from said organisation, then I suggest you post your feelings in LU's comments section.


 
I thought you were the Urban branch of Lanacaster Unity but if you have no influence apart from cut'n pasting then I will take it up with your head office


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## The39thStep (Jun 13, 2011)

audiotech said:


> It's bizarre to hear those bleating about leaving Britain because of immigration, now being actual immigrants themselves in Spain and btw not in the main integrating, speaking the language etc. Ole!


 
I think you will find that sadly emigrating to Spain isn't the phenonema it was.


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 13, 2011)

Stay Beautiful said:


> I agree with the point on resources but the original poster also has a point. Some previously relatively homogeneous areas have been/are being changed rapidly by immigration. In the same way the tensions would be lessened through better resources, they would also be lessened if things had been slowly down a lot while everyone got used to each other.


 
In most areas it *has* been gradual. Those Northern towns where the BNP won council seats in the last decade, mostly they didn't suddenly have an influx of immigrants that tipped the social balance, they had an erosion of resources that was exacerbated by growing demand (through rising unemployment more than rising population) on those resources.


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 13, 2011)

The39thStep said:


> I think you will find that sadly emigrating to Spain isn't the phenonema it was.


 
Not to Spain, maybe, because prices are normalising with those in the UK, and the pound buys less than it used to, but other places are taking up the slack. The Black Sea coastal regions of Bulgaria and Romania, for example, have sizable British expat communities, and Portugal is starting to suffer the same inroads as Spain.


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## The39thStep (Jun 14, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Not to Spain, maybe, because prices are normalising with those in the UK, and the pound buys less than it used to, but other places are taking up the slack. The Black Sea coastal regions of Bulgaria and Romania, for example, have sizable British expat communities, and Portugal is starting to suffer the same inroads as Spain.


 
the Bulgarian and Romania ex pat communities are very small compared with Spain.


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## Casually Red (Jun 14, 2011)

Stay Beautiful said:


> I agree with the point on resources but the original poster also has a point. Some previously relatively homogeneous areas have been/are being changed rapidly by immigration. In the same way the tensions would be lessened through better resources, they would also be lessened if things had been slowly down a lot while everyone got used to each other.



Is it likely there was any consultation with the community beforehand , before immgrants began to arrive in numbers ?


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## audiotech (Jun 14, 2011)

The39thStep said:


> I thought you were the Urban branch of Lanacaster Unity but if you have no influence apart from cut'n pasting then I will take it up with your head office



And I thought you had wit.


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## audiotech (Jun 14, 2011)

The39thStep said:


> I think you will find that sadly emigrating to Spain isn't the phenonema it was.



I've heard a number are posting the keys to their houses through the banks letterboxes.


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 14, 2011)

The39thStep said:


> the Bulgarian and Romania ex pat communities are very small compared with Spain.


 
Because they've only been developing for (quite literally) a couple of years, whereas Spain has been a destination for ex-pats since Franco karked.


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 14, 2011)

audiotech said:


> And I thought you had wit.


 
I knew you were deluded, but I didn't realise you were that far gone!!!


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## LLETSA (Jun 14, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Not to Spain, maybe, because prices are normalising with those in the UK, and the pound buys less than it used to, but other places are taking up the slack. The Black Sea coastal regions of Bulgaria and Romania, for example, have sizable British expat communities, and Portugal is starting to suffer the same inroads as Spain.





Fucking hell, if people were reluctant to learn Spanish, they've no chance with Bulgarian or Rumanian.


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## Fedayn (Jun 14, 2011)

LLETSA said:


> Fucking hell, if people were reluctant to learn Spanish, they've no chance with Bulgarian or Rumanian.


 
Romanian is a lot less difficult than Bulgarian and alot less difficult than people would think. It's also not really on the ex pat map as yet. My dad lives there and there's precious few other Brits, he reads the Ex pat stuff over there and it's nopt very widespread at all..


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 14, 2011)

Fedayn said:


> Romanian is a lot less difficult than Bulgarian and alot less difficult than people would think. It's also not really on the ex pat map as yet. *My dad lives there* and there's precious few other Brits, he reads the Ex pat stuff over there and it's nopt very widespread at all..



Checks length of Fed's incisors.


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## audiotech (Jun 14, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> I knew you were deluded, but I didn't realise you were that far gone!!!


 
It's difficult to be deluded about anything when presently having to deal with the DWP, but apparently I have "potential".


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## audiotech (Jun 16, 2011)

Chaos in Wigan.


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## The39thStep (Jun 20, 2011)

Review of Mathew Goodwins latest book ' New British Fascism'  http://labour-uncut.co.uk/2011/06/1...-british-national-party-by-matthew-j-goodwin/

Painter is the co-author of Searchlights Fear and Hope report

Worth re-emphasising the point that has been made on here by a few of us that what ever happends to the BNP or EDL  that the far right isn't going away and that the conditions for it to grow are very much favourable especially with no pro working class political alternative.

Good comment on the above website about immigration being a working class issue rather than a far right one.


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## krink (Jun 20, 2011)

audiotech said:


> Chaos in Wigan.




bloke in middle with specs/dark hair - is that steve cougan doing his latest character?


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## Joe Reilly (Jun 20, 2011)

The39thStep said:


> Review of Mathew Goodwins latest book ' New British Fascism'  http://labour-uncut.co.uk/2011/06/1...-british-national-party-by-matthew-j-goodwin/
> 
> Painter is the co-author of Searchlights Fear and Hope report
> 
> ...


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## Joe Reilly (Jun 20, 2011)

Joe Reilly;11865685}

Fair dues said:


> and[/I] identity politics combined, that is truly toxic to both working class solidarity and any potential political renaissance.



To clarify...


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## The39thStep (Jun 20, 2011)

Haven't read the book yet but I went to a couple of seminars where he has spoken at. I think his main strengths are his portrayal of 'the perfect storm' and his analysis of BNP membership through interviews.  His weakness is that he is a fairly removed academic and that he carts his stuff round who ever will use it. Both Searchlight and iCoCo have shared platforms with him  although Searchlight clearly felt they had to bring their own project out I suspect to try and maintain their market influence in what was becoming a crowded market. 

iCoCo have been instrumental in advising Labour councils and the previous govt on cohesion and when Connecting Co,,unities ( which was pretty much the far right version of PREVENT but positioned outside of counter terrorism). 'Manchester Day' is one of ICoCos projects for example.

You are right in that all of them skimp over identity politics , in fact Hope Not hate had a particular line on 'messages for women' that they were peddling last year /two years ago.


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## The Black Hand (Jun 30, 2011)

Just came across this - I thought some of you maybe interested as its a guy I have not read.
28 March 2011
Richard Saull, Queen Mary London
Capitalist development and the historical evolution of the far-right


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## Pickman's model (Jun 30, 2011)

thank you.


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## butchersapron (Jun 30, 2011)

If only we had a time machine


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Jun 30, 2011)

I think the nazis were looking into some kind of time machine? "Brotherhood of The Bell"? Maybe not, something jolly weird though. And the fash would be better spending their time looking into that than ways to hate other people and stab each other in the front.


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## The39thStep (Jul 1, 2011)

Just got the Goodwin book on New British Fascism , will read on holiday.


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## The Black Hand (Jul 15, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> If only we had a time machine


 
It was just so you could chase up his published work nobhed.


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## butchersapron (Jul 15, 2011)

I've come across him before, he's one of those semi-stalinists, one of those who follow Deustcher's line from the 50s that said revolutionaries must make peace with the USSR and the form of social organisation that existed there. His area is international relations during the cold war, interested to see how he fits the far right into this.


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## The Black Hand (Jul 17, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> I've come across him before, he's one of those semi-stalinists, one of those who follow Deustcher's line from the 50s that said revolutionaries must make peace with the USSR and the form of social organisation that existed there. His area is international relations during the cold war, interested to see how he fits the far right into this.


 
Good comment Butch As you say, fitting it all into 'political economy'/'historical materialism'/'Dialectical materialism' (use your preferred option or make up your own) is a project worth reading.


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## Stay Beautiful (Jul 25, 2011)

Griffin wins the leadership contest..... BY 9 VOTES!


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## claphamboy (Jul 25, 2011)

Stay Beautiful said:


> Griffin wins the leadership contest..... BY 9 VOTES!


 
That IMO is good news, it shows how divided the fuckwits are, I reckon even more of the 'main-players' that are anti-Griffin will be leaving over the coming weeks & months now that their final hopes of change have been dashed. 



> Upon the announcement of his re-election, Nick Griffin said: “The time for division and disruption is over; now is the time to heal. *Now is the time to move on.* Now is the time to get back to work. We have a Party to build and a Nation to save. Let us go forward together!”



I am sure many will do just that.


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## Stay Beautiful (Jul 25, 2011)

claphamboy said:


> That IMO is good news, it shows how divided the fuckwits are, I reckon even more of the 'main-players' that are anti-Griffin will be leaving over the coming weeks & months now that their final hopes of change have been dashed.



Yes, hilarious reading some of the anti-Griffin sites at the moment. Lots of giving up on politics posts, combined with 'no chance of saving our country now'. Ah, diddums!


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## claphamboy (Jul 25, 2011)

Stay Beautiful said:


> Yes, hilarious reading some of the anti-Griffin sites at the moment. Lots of giving up on politics posts, combined with 'no chance of saving our country now'. Ah, diddums!


 
Which sites are you looking at?

Break any links, no direct linking, we don't the fuckwits turning-up here.


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## Stay Beautiful (Jul 25, 2011)

claphamboy said:


> Which sites are you looking at?
> 
> Break any links, no direct linking, we don't the fuckwits turning-up here.


 
British Democracy Forum and the The British Resistance, aka the Green Arrow loon who went from loyal to anti overnight.


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## claphamboy (Jul 25, 2011)

Stay Beautiful said:


> British Democracy Forum and the The British Resistance, aka the Green Arrow loon who went from loyal to anti overnight.


 
Cheers  , I'll take a look tomorrow, sleep needed now - up at 5 am again tomorrow.


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## audiotech (Jul 26, 2011)

From the BNP website:



> Now that all the votes have been counted, we can announce that Nick Griffin MEP has been duly re-elected to lead the British National Party for a fixed term of four years. The winner, Nick Griffin, received 1157 votes, whilst Andrew Brons, the loser, received 1148 votes. Eleven ballots were spoiled.
> 
> Upon the announcement of his re-election, Nick Griffin said: “The time for division and disruption is over; now is the time to heal. Now is the time to move on. Now is the time to get back to work. We have a Party to build and a Nation to save. Let us go forward together!"


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## skitr (Jul 27, 2011)

audiotech said:


> From the BNP website:


 
By spoiled, does it mean Griffin destroyed them?


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## audiotech (Jul 27, 2011)

Unlikely, but his security team, who were reportedly out in force at the count, might have?


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## Pickman's model (Jul 27, 2011)

will the last one out of the bnp turn out the lights?

there you go, a return to the streets looks somewhat more likely.


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## audiotech (Jul 27, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> will the last one out of the bnp turn out the lights?
> 
> there you go, a return to the streets looks somewhat more likely.



It's referred to as an OAP outing these days I've heard?


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## lazyhack (Jul 27, 2011)

Its good that the BNP are so inept internally because the British left really wouldn't stand a chance against a coherent far right movement.


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## audiotech (Jul 27, 2011)

Barking.


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## lazyhack (Jul 27, 2011)

audiotech said:


> Barking.



The reason they were able to get where they did in Barking hasn't gone away.


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## love detective (Jul 27, 2011)

lazyhack said:


> Its good that the BNP are so inept internally because the British left really wouldn't stand a chance against a coherent far right movement.


 
it didn't stand a chance against an 'incoherent' one


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## audiotech (Jul 27, 2011)

lazyhack said:


> The reason they were able to get where they did in Barking hasn't gone away.



I never said it had.


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## Joe Reilly (Jul 27, 2011)

lazyhack said:


> Its good that the BNP are so inept internally because the British left really wouldn't stand a chance against a coherent far right movement.




Is there still 'a British left'?


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## elbows (Jul 28, 2011)

The article does not say, but I presume these events have caused the remaining BNP councillor in my local area to leave the party, ho ho:

http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/ne...n-quits-to-become-independent-92746-29134150/



> THE only British National Party member on Nuneaton and Bedworth Borough Council has defected from the party and declared himself an Independent.
> 
> Martyn Findley will no longer represent Barpool ward under the BNP banner but will continue to serve as a councillor until the next election in May 2012.
> 
> ...


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## The39thStep (Jul 29, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> will the last one out of the bnp turn out the lights?
> 
> there you go, a return to the streets looks somewhat more likely.


 
for whom?


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## TremulousTetra (Jul 30, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> will the last one out of the bnp turn out the lights?
> 
> there you go, a return to the streets looks somewhat more likely.


 
So the UAF tactic worked, again.


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 30, 2011)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> So the UAF tactic worked, again.


 
That's right, it was Weyman's Warriors wot won it!


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## TremulousTetra (Jul 30, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> That's right, it was Weyman's Warriors wot won it!


 
lol an @kiiiiiiist's = KPD = epic fail.


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 30, 2011)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> lol an @kiiiiiiist's = KPD = epic fail.


 
Okay, my sneering little Swappie, how did the UAF's tactics work insofar as the BNP are having a breakdown?

Was it all the chanting, and calling people Nazis?

Or perhaps it was the standing around and posturing?

Or was it the mobilisation in Barking and Dagenham, where anti-fascists poured in from all over, but the UAF and HnH took all the credit for?


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## SpineyNorman (Jul 30, 2011)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> lol an @kiiiiiiist's = KPD = epic fail.


 
It's clear to anyone with an ounce of objectivity that the BNP have imploded despite, rather than because of, UAF actions. The damage came from within - possibly aided by a bit of sabotage from Searchlight/the state (if you believe the conspiracy theories, which do seem plausible at least).


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## TremulousTetra (Aug 1, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Okay, my sneering little Swappie, how did the UAF's tactics work insofar as the BNP are having a breakdown?
> 
> Was it all the chanting, and calling people Nazis?
> 
> ...


 
How did the @kiiiiiiiiist's = KPD 'tactic's' effect the BNP?


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## past caring (Aug 1, 2011)

Where did he make the claim that they did?


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## Fedayn (Aug 1, 2011)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> How did the @kiiiiiiiiist's = KPD 'tactic's' effect the BNP?


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 1, 2011)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> How did the @kiiiiiiiiist's = KPD 'tactic's' effect the BNP?


 
Show me where anarchists acted like the KPD.

Me, I'm stuck on trying to work out how people who aren't members of a single political party can act like members of a single political party.

Oh, and anarchists not blindly supporting UAF and HnH doesn't make us "the KPD", if that's what you're talking about.


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## The39thStep (Aug 1, 2011)

Interesting article on Eddy Butlers blog which sets out a potential direction for the far right based on 'ethno' nationalism. Completely rules out any notion of the  rumoured/wished for  but never seen 'return to the streets'.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 1, 2011)

past caring said:


> Where did he make the claim that they did?


 
He's trying to play the "anarchists didn't blindly back UAF/HnH's line on the BNP, therefore they're no better than the KPD, who stood by and let the Nazis rise to power" card.

Because UK anarchists, like the KPD did, get a million-plus votes in every elec....oh hold on. UK anarchists, having a homogeneous membership all signed up to a membership charter, all agr....nope, that's not right either, is it?


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 1, 2011)

The39thStep said:


> Interesting article on Eddy Butlers blog which sets out a potential direction for the far right based on 'ethno' nationalism. Completely rules out any notion of the  rumoured/wished for  but never seen 'return to the streets'.


 
Didn't the British far-right already flirt with all this back in the '90s and then discard it because they couldn't make it work in the way their US and Russian brethren can?


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 1, 2011)

Fedayn said:


>


 
Fed. why have you rammed a stick up RMP3's straw man's arse?


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## The39thStep (Aug 2, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Didn't the British far-right already flirt with all this back in the '90s and then discard it because they couldn't make it work in the way their US and Russian brethren can?


 
Its europe where Butler is making the connection. he is saying a number of things , first of all that the BNP is too toxic in its present form, in both its reputation ( down to griffin)  and its ideology which is too 'white' based. He wants something more like Euro nationalism.It could be possible as the 'modernised' membership is neo nazi light.

It dovetails in with mathew goodwins conclusion which is that the BNP in its current racial nationalism ideology cannot grow, demographics are against it and its  supporter base is too old, but that there is space for a revival of nationalism.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 2, 2011)

The39thStep said:


> Its europe where Butler is making the connection. he is saying a number of things , first of all that the BNP is too toxic in its present form, in both its reputation ( down to griffin)  and its ideology which is too 'white' based. He wants something more like Euro nationalism.It could be possible as the 'modernised' membership is neo nazi light.
> 
> It dovetails in with mathew goodwins conclusion which is that the BNP in its current racial nationalism ideology cannot grow, demographics are against it and its  supporter base is too old, but that there is space for a revival of nationalism.


 
Hmm, they did try to accommodate the ideas around Euro-nationalism and the European new right before. Watching the BNP hierarchy try to help the membership get to grips with de Benoist and Evola was one of the more entertaining sagas of the 1990s.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 3, 2011)

The39thStep said:


> Its europe where Butler is making the connection. he is saying a number of things , first of all that the BNP is too toxic in its present form, in both its reputation ( down to griffin)  and its ideology which is too 'white' based. He wants something more like Euro nationalism.It could be possible as the 'modernised' membership is neo nazi light.
> 
> It dovetails in with mathew goodwins conclusion which is that the BNP in its current racial nationalism ideology cannot grow, demographics are against it and its  supporter base is too old, but that there is space for a revival of nationalism.


given other studies of the bnp's support it's no great surprise that goodwin concurs their supporter base is too old. however, that's not to say that racial nationalism cannot grow: the limits on its expression through the ballot box have been largely down to internal issues in the bnp, such as the lack of credible candidates as well as the limited distribution of the party throughout the country. so, they haven't been able to field candidates all over the country, and local party support for them has been variable.

i'd say there's the possibility of a 20% poll nationwide - but not much more - for a racial nationalist party of the bnp's style. however, this could increase with repackaging or decrease due to demographics.


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## The39thStep (Aug 4, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> given other studies of the bnp's support it's no great surprise that goodwin concurs their supporter base is too old. however, that's not to say that racial nationalism cannot grow: the limits on its expression through the ballot box have been largely down to internal issues in the bnp, such as the lack of credible candidates as well as the limited distribution of the party throughout the country. so, they haven't been able to field candidates all over the country, and local party support for them has been variable.
> 
> i'd say there's the possibility of a 20% poll nationwide - but not much more - for a racial nationalist party of the bnp's style. however, this could increase with repackaging or decrease due to demographics.


 
Don't disagree with this.The issue of whether he far right can grow though is whether or not it is fit for purpose. The argument is simply can racial nationalism do this or a milder form of ethno nationalism or culturalist nationalism. In other words if you took the EDLs 'we are not racist' cocktail without the street element and applied it to the BNP experience of how to fight elections and build locally then we would have formidable rivals for working class support.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 4, 2011)

The39thStep said:


> Don't disagree with this.The issue of whether he far right can grow though is whether or not it is fit for purpose. The argument is simply can racial nationalism do this or a milder form of ethno nationalism or culturalist nationalism. In other words if you took the EDLs 'we are not racist' cocktail without the street element and applied it to the BNP experience of how to fight elections and build locally then we would have formidable rivals for working class support.


only if you took the whole out of the hands of the edl's current personnel and put it in the charge of people who could string a sentence together without coming across as thick, ignorant wankers. the intellectual basis for edl (and much of the bnp's) politics is weak, to say the least. their attempts to source credible authorities for their views often relies on obscure and outdated (and foreign!) books, which shouldn't convince a six year-old, let alone grown men and women.


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## trampie (Aug 4, 2011)

Griffin apparently lives amongst a different ethnic group to his own - how weird is that ?
His children have all learned to speak a different language to his own, how ironic it would be if protesters appeared outside his gate with placards saying, Griffin should be sent back to Moenchengladbach or wherever Germanic types originate from.
Life is full of anomalies.


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## The39thStep (Aug 7, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> only if you took the whole out of the hands of the edl's current personnel and put it in the charge of people who could string a sentence together without coming across as thick, ignorant wankers. the intellectual basis for edl (and much of the bnp's) politics is weak, to say the least. their attempts to source credible authorities for their views often relies on obscure and outdated (and foreign!) books, which shouldn't convince a six year-old, let alone grown men and women.



Yes I agree with the your first sentence, that is pretty much where I was heading. Not sure of the second though re the relevance of percieved intellectual basis for the BNPs politics.What they do offer is a range of policies far wider than just race hatred which are attractive to a wider proportion of the public than their actual vote.


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## The39thStep (Aug 7, 2011)

trampie said:


> Griffin apparently lives amongst a different ethnic group to his own - how weird is that ?
> His children have all learned to speak a different language to his own, how ironic it would be if protesters appeared outside his gate with placards saying, Griffin should be sent back to Moenchengladbach or wherever Germanic types originate from.
> Life is full of anomalies.



The Welsh along with the Scots and irsih are considered by the BNP to be pasrt of the same ethnic family.


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## SpineyNorman (Aug 7, 2011)

Can anyone tell me what the difference between ethno-nationalism and racial nationalism is? (If there is one that is - they sound like two different words for the same thing but the way I've seen them used recently suggests there may be a difference, however slight)


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## The39thStep (Aug 7, 2011)

SpineyNorman said:


> Can anyone tell me what the difference between ethno-nationalism and racial nationalism is? (If there is one that is - they sound like two different words for the same thing but the way I've seen them used recently suggests there may be a difference, however slight)



In my view its the shift from (racial nationalism) being anti black per se and championing being white with being anti immigration and championing being British ( ethno nationalism). Griffins admission that compulsory repatriation would never in fact take place and that there is nothing wrong with a bit of salt  in the soup analogy and then his ‘a bit of immigration is better than none at all’.  marks that step change.It was this sort of line that Griffin and his supporters modernised the BNP with as against the Tyndalites for whom being black meant to be superior full stop.

I  think this also shifts into cultural nationalism and the 'they are destroying our culture' rather than simply 'we don't like paki's'.


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## SpineyNorman (Aug 7, 2011)

The39thStep said:


> In my view its the shift from (racial nationalism) being anti black per se and championing being white with being anti immigration and championing being British ( ethno nationalism). Griffins admission that compulsory repatriation would never in fact take place and that there is nothing wrong with a bit of salt in the soup analogy and then his ‘a bit of immigration is better than none at all’. marks that step change.It was this sort of line that Griffin and his supporters modernised the BNP with as against the Tyndalites for whom being black meant to be superior full stop.
> 
> I think this also shifts into cultural nationalism and the 'they are destroying our culture' rather than simply 'we don't like paki's'.



Thanks, that makes sense. I've noticed over the last 10 years or so that they've stopped talking about superiority and theories of racial hierarchy and talking instead about the preservation of racial and cultural differences, is that the kind of thing you're talking about? There was a really good piece on the IWCA website about a year ago about how state multiculturalism has played right into their hands in this regard.


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## The39thStep (Aug 7, 2011)

SpineyNorman said:


> Thanks, that makes sense. I've noticed over the last 10 years or so that they've stopped talking about superiority and theories of racial hierarchy and talking instead about the preservation of racial and cultural differences,* is that the kind of thing you're talking about?* There was a really good piece on the IWCA website about a year ago about how state multiculturalism has played right into their hands in this regard.



Yes, and Butler's piece on his blog is quite a plausible arguement about how nationalism could be taken further and away from being tainted with racial nationalism and obsolete Nazism


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## love detective (Aug 8, 2011)

The39thStep said:


> Yes, and Butler's piece on his blog is quite a plausible arguement about how nationalism could be taken further and away from being tainted with racial nationalism and obsolete Nazism


 It's a fairly remarkable achievement in terms of what's been done so far in terms of bringing far right politics in from the cold - and with the scope & backdrop to do much more ahead, it throws into sharp relief the left's utter failure to do anything even approaching this from the other side.

The question posed in the final chapter of Beating the Fascists, remains:-




> what happens if an extreme right party emerges that immunises itself against the charges of nazism? What happens when, with generational shift, the strength of ant-nazi feeling and memory of war fades?


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## trampie (Aug 8, 2011)

SpineyNorman said:


> I've noticed over the last 10 years or so that they've stopped talking about superiority and theories of racial hierarchy and talking instead about the preservation of racial and cultural differences


Thats a bit rich on Griffins part is it not ? {not disagreeing just saying its a bit rich on Griffin's part}


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## The39thStep (Aug 8, 2011)

Thought this papar in Mathew Goodwin's blog had a lot of truth in it:



> With Griffin at the helm, it is distinctly unlikely that the BNP will resurrect its electoral challenge by making gains at the London Assembly and then European elections. As I document in a new book, seen through the eyes of the vast majority of Britons, Griffin's BNP is damaged goods. They simply do not view the party as either a credible or legitimate alternative. The party's decade-long strategy of 'modernization' failed to broaden its appeal among women, young people and economically insecure sections of the middle classes. Instead, and like its 1970s predecessor, the party has fallen heavily dependent on a constituency of older working class men who are more likely than other voters in society to endorse the most strident forms of racism. Rather than reach out to the larger numbers of Britons who are sceptical over immigration but who distance themselves from this crude racial prejudice, the BNP depends heavily on a dwindling base of traditional racists.


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## TremulousTetra (Aug 10, 2011)

Fedayn said:


>



lol,,
you're right, it is a strawman question, intentionally, because it WAS intended to highlight there is no anarchists MASS antifascist strategy, just like there was no KPD MASS antifascist strategy. Furthermore, You can never get two anarchists to agree, but there are some anarchists who argue like the KPD, you shouldn't try to build a mass antifascist opposition, you should concentrate on building an alternative to fascism. However, the similarities of the anarchist's to the KPD are only in the rhetoric, for while the KPD had a real alternative and a tangible effect in German politics, the uk anarchists have no alternative to fascism as they have no registrable effect you can point to in British politics.


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## MellySingsDoom (Sep 16, 2011)

Thread bump here, due to a posting I spotted on the Hope Not Hate blog, regarding an BBC documetary about to air, with an "exclusive" about the BNP's financial doings: http://www.hopenothate.org.uk/blog/article/1398/the-clock-is-ticking

Of course, Hope Not Hate/Nick Lowles will know that this so-called exposé has been common knowledge on both the "nationalist" and anti-fascist side for a very long while now, so why he's touting this as being some sort of bombshell I've no idea (well, actually I do, but let's put the "Searchlight agenda" whatnots to one side for just a second). In fact, if Lowles should acknowledge anyone on this, it's various disaffected "nationalists" who've falled foul of Mr Griffin and his cabal, and consistently dished out the details on the money shenanigans, often in the face of abusive howling from the Griffinites. Sharon Ebanks, a woman not known for her natural empathy and pleasantness, was particularly active in demolishing Griffin and Co's blather on that score - she did all her washing on the British "Democracy" Forum, and would constantly given documented proof of where the money was really going (ie not to the creditors!). Also assisting her in this was Mr Nice Guy himself, Eddy Butler, leading to the likes of the Green Arrow shouting on his blog to his followers (all 5 of them) about Butler's "treachery" to the Great One, and accusations at one point of Ebanks having an affair with Butler! And if I really have to give a "nationalist" any due at all (ugh!), it's Ebanks' tenacity in the face of often virulently racist taunts and abuse (her father is not of "pure Aryan stock", so they say).

Anyhow, this stuff has been discussed all over the shop (not least on here), and the demise of the BNP has been predicted so many times (esp. on the Lancaster Unity site), it's almost like an anti-fascist version of Groundhog Day. Also, the whole thing of "financial/legal anti-fascism" has been rightly pulled up on Urban as being too "state"-heavy and really not dealing with the roots and causes of fascism, and it certainly does nothing to deal with those working class communities where fascism and racism are given a political and electoral voice. Besides (as has been pointed out here plenty of times), why rely on the mainstream political and legal establishment to fight the BNP's idealogy and tactics, when if anything, they're part of the problem in themselves?

What Lowles also fails to mention is that, even if the BNP do finally get wound up or what have you, there's plenty of other opportunites for "nationalists" to regroup - there's been the entryism into the English Democrats by various ex-BNP members and activists (Eddy Butler - not exactly a savoury proposition himself - has recently joined, and been calling for other disaffected "nationalists" to do the same), and there's of course other groupings such as the British Freedom Party and Britain First in the background. And even the NF (currently all awash at sea after the Eddy Morrison/Tom Linden flounce) could pick up more recruits (and money) should the BNP cease to be. It goes without saying that the likes of the EDL haven't packed it all in yet, either....

And finally, after the furore of the "Secret Agent" documentary (where at least one of the "nationalists" making the most blatant statements turned out to be a Searchlight agent), does the world really need another BNP documentary "mentored" by Searchlight, and which is light on genuine insights and analysis, and heavy on tabloid-style shock-horror moments?


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## audiotech (Sep 17, 2011)

Author of "Hate" Interviewed.
*Street Voice: If times do get more dangerous would there be room for organisations like Anti Fascist Action in today's struggle against the Fascists?*​


> The conditions will I suppose dictate the response.


.
http://www.hopenothate.org.uk/news/article/1950/author-of-hate-interviewed


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## kmarxs&sparks (Sep 17, 2011)

An interesting idea.
I read a thought elsewhere that could hold some truth.
It was suggested the EDL were set up simply to cause as much trouble as possible but keep the BNP clear of any blame.
The idea, as suggested, was the EDL stir things up, cause as much backlash as they can, thus allowing the BNP to say, "Look how nasty all those foreigners are" but have nothing to do with the violence.

Sounds like that theory may have legs. Opinion?


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## David852 (Sep 18, 2011)

Fruitloop said:


> the consequences of that would be what, exactly?


We might end up with getting rid of both Cam the Con and Cleggmania and instead get Nick the Griff as our next PM instead of Ed the Red.That should be good for a larf


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## Joe Reilly (Sep 18, 2011)

kmarxs&sparks said:


> An interesting idea.
> I read a thought elsewhere that could hold some truth.
> It was suggested the EDL were set up simply to cause as much trouble as possible but keep the BNP clear of any blame.
> The idea, as suggested, was the EDL stir things up, cause as much backlash as they can, thus allowing the BNP to say, "Look how nasty all those foreigners are" but have nothing to do with the violence.
> ...



Even the UAF were spinning that line, for a while. More likely the EDL was set up as a rival to the BNP to put pressure on the BNP leadership to move back toward the streets by making the rank and file restless. It was not a supplement to the BNP but an _alternative_. Searchlight promoted them as the 'most dangeorus street presence' since the NF in the 1970's. Which was utter nonsense. And as history shows once Searchlight start promoting an opponent, (Column 88, C18\0 they are doing so only because they or Mi5 have a considerable investment in it.


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## butchersapron (Nov 4, 2011)

http://borderland.co.uk/index.php?o...civil-war-breaks-out-amongst-the-searchlight-
NO HOPE, LOTS OF HATE: CIVIL WAR BREAKS OUT IN THE SEARCHLIGHT GANG


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## audiotech (Nov 4, 2011)

Had me wondering about Lowles departure from editing _Searchlight_ announced in the latest issue, which was late and looked as though it had been rapidly put together, complete with errors. This, with an announcement about a future change in the magazines format, all to do with cost-cutting.


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## The39thStep (Nov 5, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> http://borderland.co.uk/index.php?o...civil-war-breaks-out-amongst-the-searchlight-
> NO HOPE, LOTS OF HATE: CIVIL WAR BREAKS OUT IN THE SEARCHLIGHT GANG



weird conclusion in Larry's article about the prospect/possibility re a new anti fascist organisation which actually seems to go against the grain of the position that he had two/three years ago


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## malatesta32 (Nov 5, 2011)

is this he of liverpool bnp fame?
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Male-Nude-P...=sr_1_8?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1320480721&sr=1-8


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## malatesta32 (Nov 5, 2011)

The39thStep said:


> weird conclusion in Larry's article about the prospect/possibility re a new anti fascist organisation which actually seems to go against the grain of the position that he had two/three years ago



im plugging this!
http://antifascistnetwork.wordpress.com/


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## butchersapron (Nov 5, 2011)

There has never been a better time to give up anti-fascism


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## TremulousTetra (Nov 5, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> There has never been a better time to give up anti-fascism


Said the KPD.


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## butchersapron (Nov 5, 2011)

Which is why they had hundreds of thousands locked up. What a tool.

I'd be very interested in examples of the KPD arguing for giving up anti-fascism as you claim that they did. How many do you have? One? Two? Many?


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## TremulousTetra (Nov 5, 2011)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_fascism


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## butchersapron (Nov 5, 2011)

So have you any examples of the KPD arguing for giving up anti-fascism as you claim that they did?


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## TremulousTetra (Nov 5, 2011)

tantamount to the same thing. In refusing to join with the reformists workers against the fascists and defining them as part of the problem and not the solution, like some 'anarchists' do on here,they argued for giving up on the force that could have defeated fascism in Germany. http://www.marx.org/history/etol/newspape/isj/1969/no038/1930.htm


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## butchersapron (Nov 5, 2011)

So you have no examples at all of them arguing what you claimed that they argued for? And we do have the examples of hundreds of thousands of them not giving up anti-fascism. What a star you are.


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## TremulousTetra (Nov 5, 2011)

Whatever, your still a KPDite. just read the book, that's you that is.


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## butchersapron (Nov 5, 2011)

Your own claim and all you cans ay is 'whatever'?


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## TremulousTetra (Nov 5, 2011)

I provided you with historical fact, both the KPD and Butchers failed to argue for any kind of EFFECTIVE strategy, in the face of fascism.


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## butchersapron (Nov 5, 2011)

In what way is this the KPD arguing  - as per your claim - that the KPD (hundreds of thousands of anti-fascist prisoners) should give up anti-fascism? I can demonstrate they they didn't. Can you show that they argued that they should? If not,i think your claim is shown to be false (given that you haven't he integrity to take it back yourself).


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## TremulousTetra (Nov 5, 2011)

I've already explained that to you, if you can understand it that's your problem.

I've moved on to another topic,

I provided you with historical fact, both the KPD and Butchers failed to argue for any kind of EFFECTIVE strategy, in the face of fascism.​


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## butchersapron (Nov 5, 2011)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> I've already explained that to you, if you can understand it that's your problem.


You have neither explained it nor demonstrated it. The only thing being demonstrated here is your shaky sectarian grasp on history and your inability to be honest. You fucked it up - as you so often do. Swallow it, move on. Fail better next time.


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## TremulousTetra (Nov 5, 2011)

your wrong. and your wrong to offer no effective alternative, whilst criticising what everybody else does.

You've been bleating on to anyone who will listen for years now "There has never been a better time to give up anti-fascism", and the vast majority of people interested in the topic ignore you. put up an effective alternative, or shut up.


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## butchersapron (Nov 5, 2011)

I'm wrong on what - arguing that the KPD did not argue that they should give up anti-fascism? I'm not, i'm right. Your inability to back up your claim shows this as clear as day.

I'm also right that there's never been a better time to give up anti-fascism.


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## TremulousTetra (Nov 5, 2011)

. Y





butchersapron said:


> I'm wrong on what - arguing that the KPD did not argue that they should give up anti-fascism? I'm not, i'm right. Your inability to back up your claim shows this as clear as day.
> 
> I'm also right that there's never been a better time to give up anti-fascism.


Yes,your always right.

And at this point where anti-fascist tactics have successfully once again broke up the organisations of fascism , there may be some merit to your argument, temporarily.even a stopped clock is right twice a day. However, your stopped clock strategy, mimicking the KP D, is wrong.


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 6, 2011)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> I provided you with historical fact, both the KPD and Butchers failed to argue for any kind of EFFECTIVE strategy, in the face of fascism.


 
Hmmm, I've provided you with historical fact many times, including with reference to the KPD's refusal to enter governmental coalition with the SPD, but you ignore it in favour of positing that collaboration with the SPD would have led to an effective anti-fascist strategy, and fail to grasp that in terms of activists, and in terms of actually-existing power to legislate, any coalition would have still not been enough, *even in government*, to actually do more than apply a brake to the rise of fascism. To actually have made Germany less amenable to fascism would have required a plethora of variations to history such as France conceding that its own reparation claims were unrealistic; the two major economic crises in Germany between the wars to have not occurred, or to have been far milder, and so not actually "crises" at all; and for the Dawes Plan to have failed at the negotiation stage at the latest.
The KPD and SPD would also have required clairvoyant powers to foresee that the Weimar constitution would also have to have been amended to remove or amend the seemingly innocuous section 48.


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## TremulousTetra (Nov 7, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Hmmm, I've provided you with historical fact many times, including with reference to the KPD's refusal to enter governmental coalition with the SPD, but you ignore it in favour of positing that collaboration with the SPD would have led to an effective anti-fascist strategy, and fail to grasp that in terms of activists, and in terms of actually-existing power to legislate, any coalition would have still not been enough, *even in government*, to actually do more than apply a brake to the rise of fascism. To actually have made Germany less amenable to fascism would have required a plethora of variations to history such as France conceding that its own reparation claims were unrealistic; the two major economic crises in Germany between the wars to have not occurred, or to have been far milder, and so not actually "crises" at all; and for the Dawes Plan to have failed at the negotiation stage at the latest.
> The KPD and SPD would also have required clairvoyant powers to foresee that the Weimar constitution would also have to have been amended to remove or amend the seemingly innocuous section 48.


http://www.marx.org/history/etol/newspape/isj/1969/no038/1930.htm


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## Joe Reilly (Nov 7, 2011)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> tantamount to the same thing. In refusing to join with the reformists workers against the fascists and defining them as part of the problem and not the solution, like some 'anarchists' do on here,they argued for giving up on the force that could have defeated fascism in Germany. http://www.marx.org/history/etol/newspape/isj/1969/no038/1930.htm



So what prevented the reformist workers, some 2 million of them in the SPD, fighting fascism in pursuit of it's own interests and objectives?

Simple.

They eschewed the use of violence in pursuit of their own party's objectives, and thus eschewed violence in defence of their own party when under attack.


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## Fedayn (Nov 7, 2011)

Joe Reilly said:


> So what prevented the reformist workers, some 2 million of them in the SPD, fighting fascism in pursuit of it's own interests and objectives?
> 
> Simple.
> 
> They eschewed the use of violence in pursuit of their own party's objectives, and thus eschewed violence in defence of their own party when under attack.


In fairness the leadership of the SPD stifled the Reichsbanner (SPD fighting wing). The night of Hitlers election victory the various regional/local leaders of the Reichsbanner went to their leaders/SPD and told them they could put 1m plus on then streets to deal with the SA/SS etc. The SPD leadership, so wedded was it to parliamentary democracy , that they told the Reichsbanner delegates to go home and remain peaceful. Now not all did but you're right the SPD/RB leadership totally rejected such a militant course of action. Many RB members fought heroically but without the national organised backing so vital in such a scenario.


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## TremulousTetra (Nov 7, 2011)

Joe Reilly said:


> So what prevented the reformist workers, some 2 million of them in the SPD, fighting fascism in pursuit of it's own interests and objectives?
> 
> Simple.
> 
> They eschewed the use of violence in pursuit of their own party's objectives, and thus eschewed violence in defence of their own party when under attack.


well spotted. don't think the butch boy wonder read that.





Fedayn said:


> In fairness the leadership of the SPD stifled the Reichsbanner (SPD fighting wing). The night of Hitlers election victory the various regional/local leaders of the Reichsbanner went to their leaders/SPD and told them they could put 1m plus on then streets to deal with the SA/SS etc. The SPD leadership, so wedded was it to parliamentary democracy , that they told the Reichsbanner delegates to go home and remain peaceful. Now not all did but you're right the SPD/RB leadership totally rejected such a militant course of action. Many RB members fought heroically but without the national organised backing so vital in such a scenario.


which if the KPD had connected with in a united front form,  instead of being sectarianly hostile, the United front COULD have acted as a conveyor from reformist to revolutionary politics.


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## butchersapron (Nov 7, 2011)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> well spotted. don't think the butch boy wonder read that.



Read what? Not sure that you quite grasped the point being made by Joe. In fact, i'm sure that you did not.

I do like this naive idea that you have of the good SPD who were just waiting to fight the Nazis if only the KPD would hold hands with them. It essentially says that those workers of the KPD flavour who hadn't forgot Noske, hadn't forgot the SPD using the freikorps on the revolution, the SPD cops massacring people on mayday,the SPD attacks on welfare and unemployment payments and so on would just go along with such an order from above. It totally ignores the social and political reality of weimar Germany - it's utterly redundant to say that the answer to a organisationally, socially and politically divided class is for them to unite. It's even more redundant when you are not aware of these divisions nor off anything to overcome them. Fantasy politics.


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## TremulousTetra (Nov 7, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Read what? Not sure that you quite grasped the point being made by Joe. In fact, i'm sure that you did not.


lol. I'm just glad he highlighted the point you failed to, and lured the little fishy back on the hook. 



> I do like this naive idea that you have of the good SPD who were just waiting to fight the Nazis if only the KPD would hold hands with them. It essentially says that those workers of the KPD flavour who hadn't forgot Noske, hadn't forgot the SPD using the freikorps on the revolution, the SPD cops massacring people on mayday,the SPD attacks on welfare and unemployment payments and so on would just go along with such an order from above. It totally ignores the social and political reality of weimar Germany - it's utterly redundant to say that the answer to a organisationally, socially and politically divided class is for them to unite. It's even more redundant when you are not aware of these divisions nor off anything to overcome them. Fantasy politics.


Trotsky's Fascism, Stallinism and the United Front or Butchers sectarianism, who should I believe?

Rather fantasy politics than the do nothing of BA.


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## butchersapron (Nov 7, 2011)

So what was it that i hadn't read? What was you referring to?

Really, that's your political response to the holes in your scenario? To the fact of the social reality that worked against your simplistic view? Really? This is marxism for you is it? _People shouldn't do bad things then they won't happen._


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## TremulousTetra (Nov 7, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> So what was it that i hadn't read? What was you referring to?
> 
> Really, that's your political response to the holes in your scenario? To the fact of the social reality that worked against your simplistic view? Really? This is marxism for you is it? _People shouldn't do bad things then they won't happen._


WTF are you going on about. Trotsky's book. accept it, reject it. I realy don't care, as you have nothing to offer on the topic, beyond "give up".

Carry on bleating.


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## TremulousTetra (Nov 7, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Read what? Not sure that you quite grasped the point being made by Joe. In fact, i'm sure that you did not.
> 
> I do like this naive idea that you have of the good SPD who were just waiting to fight the Nazis if only the KPD would hold hands with them. It essentially says that those workers of the KPD flavour who hadn't forgot Noske, hadn't forgot the SPD using the freikorps on the revolution, the SPD cops massacring people on mayday,the SPD attacks on welfare and unemployment payments and so on would just go along with such an order from above. It totally ignores the social and political reality of weimar Germany - it's utterly redundant to say that the answer to a organisationally, socially and politically divided class is for them to unite. It's even more redundant when you are not aware of these divisions nor off anything to overcome them. Fantasy politics.


BTW, you really do have no understanding of the SWP/Trotskyist UF analysis do you?


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## butchersapron (Nov 7, 2011)

Amazing,i talk about the SPD and he talks about the SWP. Ok, you must then think the SWP are the modern day equivalent of the SPD then or your analogy doesn't work. How many members do you have? How many regions do you run? How many police forces? How many guns?


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## malatesta32 (Nov 7, 2011)

just doing this for the 'malatesta' book. as well as revolutionary vs reform, Bessel says that it was cultural differences as well with KPD/SPD: youth v older, unemployed v worker, 'new street' politics rather than the vote. which was also an attractive in the NSDAP. 2 KPD blunders: the joint Berlin transport strike with the fash and the 'social fascists' thing. what i wanna know is what is the case for the united front? if any? anyone?


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## malatesta32 (Nov 7, 2011)

oh yeah and the fact that the SPD had used cops against KPD actions when in government.


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## articul8 (Nov 7, 2011)

What ought to have been the KPD position - if not "united front"?


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## TremulousTetra (Nov 7, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Amazing,i talk about the SPD and he talks about the SWP. Ok, you must then think the SWP are the modern day equivalent of the SPD then or your analogy doesn't work. How many members do you have? How many regions do you run? How many police forces? How many guns?


"Ok, you must then think"  ROFL butch boy wonder telling people what they think, now that's something never see allllllllllllllllll the fucking time.

Instead guessing, wrongly, what I think, why don't you guess what you think the KPD should have done, and share it with us. I mean, have you had anything more to say than "give up" for 134 pages?

[tumble weed moment smiley]

ETA, just noticed "Amazing,i talk about the SPD and he talks about the SWP." who ya talking to butch, your followers? ROFL Your getting a bit Scargilesque. Do you have a comb over, and talk about yourself in the third person down the pub?


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## TremulousTetra (Nov 7, 2011)

malatesta32 said:


> oh yeah and the fact that the SPD had used cops against KPD actions when in government.


Don't forget Rosa Luxemburg.   KPD slogan should have, "Comrades, I stand before and plead for revenge, not revolution."


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## The39thStep (Nov 8, 2011)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> . Y
> Yes,your always right.
> 
> And at this point where anti-fascist tactics have successfully once again broke up the organisations of fascism , there may be some merit to your argument, temporarily.even a stopped clock is right twice a day. However, your stopped clock strategy, mimicking the KP D, is wrong.



How have the SWPs united front anti fascist tactics ( based on Trotsky's analysis of the 1930s) broken up the organisations of fascism?


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## articul8 (Nov 8, 2011)

The39thStep said:


> How have the SWPs united front anti fascist tactics ( based on Trotsky's analysis of the 1930s) broken up the organisations of fascism?



That's a valid question - but not the same as answering what the KPD should have done if not followed a united front type arrangement.


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## TremulousTetra (Nov 8, 2011)

articul8 said:


> That's a valid question - but not the same as answering what the KPD should have done if not followed a united front type arrangement.


[Tumbleweed Smiley]


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## Joe Reilly (Nov 8, 2011)

articul8 said:


> What ought to have been the KPD position - if not "united front"?



The whole 'united front' theme has aways been a bit of a red herring. it's purpose is to allow liberals/Trots to load responsibility onto the actual anti-fascist _fighters_ - while near everyone else gets a free pass.

The fact is had the SPD pulled their weight - fought with the same degree of diligence as the rank and file KPD from 1924 when the latter first flagged the particular danger (in a strong field of right wing parties near all with paramilitary wings) of the National Socialists, then the outcome may well have been different.

Equally has the SPD shown the same lack of appetite for the fry from within the 'united front', the upshot of their involvement could only have resulted in the blunting the KPD cutting edge and demoralisation of its supporters.


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## articul8 (Nov 8, 2011)

Joe Reilly said:


> The whole 'united front' theme has aways been a bit of a red herring. it's purpose is to allow liberals/Trots to load responsibility onto the actual anti-fascist _fighters_ - while near everyone else gets a free pass.



Not at all its to criticise the Moscow inspired lunacy of third period absurd leadership posturing.



> The fact is had the SPD pulled their weight - fought with the same degree of diligence as the rank and file KPD from 1924 when the latter first flagged the particular danger (in a strong field of right wing parties near all with paramilitary wings) of the National Socialists, then the outcome may well have been different.


Yes I agree.



> Equally has the SPD shown the same lack of appetite for the fry from within the 'united front', the upshot of their involvement could only have resulted in the blunting the KPD cutting edge and demoralisation of its supporters.


This is to miss the meaning of a genuine united front - which is not some amorphous unity mongering with pacifists and liberals (which is where - I agree - the ANL Mk II/UAF goes wrong btw) - it's about agreement amongst working class organisations to fight the common fascist enemy wherever it is found, whilst continuing to promote their own different programmes.


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## Joe Reilly (Nov 8, 2011)

articul8 said:


> - to fight the common fascist enemy wherever it is found



Which is precisely what the SPD failed to do throughout the 20's and 30's.


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## articul8 (Nov 8, 2011)

yes - are you saying that the SPD wasn't a party supported by millions of German workers?

[edit - to reply to Joe's clarification] Yes they did, until it was too late.  I'm not one-sidedly blaming the KPD here by any means.


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## TremulousTetra (Nov 8, 2011)

articul8 said:


> yes - are you saying that the SPD wasn't a party supported by millions of German workers?


He/they won't get it.

Notice we are back on the United front, criticising it, not discussing what they propose the KPD should have done.always criticising what people are doing, while offering nothing.

UAF


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 8, 2011)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> http://www.marx.org/history/etol/newspape/isj/1969/no038/1930.htm



...And?

I'm supposed to take an article that provides a partisan viewpoint, and cites 4 sources against all the other information I've accumulated on the subject and related subjects?


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 8, 2011)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> well spotted. don't think the butch boy wonder read that.
> which if the KPD had connected with in a united front form, instead of being sectarianly hostile, the United front COULD have acted as a conveyor from reformist to revolutionary politics.



So the KPD should have given themselves over to serving as the "armed wing" of a united front, exposing the entire membership to liquidation while the SPD sat back and reaped any benefits?

You hang everything on the "social fascism" _schtick_, but the KPD/SPD animus preceded that *and* ran deeper. If you knew your history, you'd know why the KPD, even outwith following Moscow's direction, would have had a hard time aligning with the SPD.


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 8, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Read what? Not sure that you quite grasped the point being made by Joe. In fact, i'm sure that you did not.
> 
> I do like this naive idea that you have of the good SPD who were just waiting to fight the Nazis if only the KPD would hold hands with them. It essentially says that those workers of the KPD flavour who hadn't forgot Noske, hadn't forgot the SPD using the freikorps on the revolution, the SPD cops massacring people on mayday,the SPD attacks on welfare and unemployment payments and so on would just go along with such an order from above. It totally ignores the social and political reality of weimar Germany - it's utterly redundant to say that the answer to a organisationally, socially and politically divided class is for them to unite. It's even more redundant when you are not aware of these divisions nor off anything to overcome them. Fantasy politics.



Quite.
To reduce the attitude of the KPD to extremely simplistic terms, "fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me". I've tried to get this through to rmp3 many times - that the KPD weren't being spiteful in refusing a united front with the SPD on the basis of the SPD being "social fascists", they were bearing in mind history and an appreciation of the SPD's constituency, and what the KPD could expect from such a united front.


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 8, 2011)

malatesta32 said:


> just doing this for the 'malatesta' book. as well as revolutionary vs reform, Bessel says that it was cultural differences as well with KPD/SPD: youth v older, unemployed v worker, 'new street' politics rather than the vote. which was also an attractive in the NSDAP. 2 KPD blunders: the joint Berlin transport strike with the fash and the 'social fascists' thing. what i wanna know is what is the case for the united front? if any? anyone?


 In my opinion Bessel is right in general, but glosses over some issues in order to arrive at his conclusions. The cultural differences between the SPD and KPD weren't quite as clear-cut (both parties contained elements from each of the supposed binary opposites), and the "blunders", while they look great in hindsight, don't have quite as much weight attached to them by contemporaneous sources. While the joint transport strike lost them members, they made up the lost ground fairly promptly.


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 8, 2011)

malatesta32 said:


> oh yeah and the fact that the SPD had used cops against KPD actions when in government.



And also fallen in with government action while in opposition that affected the KPD. That the KPD bore this in mind when contemplating a united anti-fascist front isn't surprising - they'd taken many knocks from the SPD or with SPD complicity when arguably they could have expected a little less eagerness from their soft-left brethren.


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 8, 2011)

articul8 said:


> What ought to have been the KPD position - if not "united front"?



Let's turn that question around a bit.

What do you think should have been their position given the history between the SPD and KPD?


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 8, 2011)

The39thStep said:


> How have the SWPs united front anti fascist tactics ( based on Trotsky's analysis of the 1930s) broken up the organisations of fascism?



They have destroyed the organisations of fascism by burying them under millions of tons of unsold copies of "socialist Worker".


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## articul8 (Nov 8, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> You hang everything on the "social fascism" _schtick_, but the KPD/SPD animus preceded that *and* ran deeper. If you knew your history, you'd know why the KPD, even outwith following Moscow's direction, would have had a hard time aligning with the SPD.



A genuine united front (the term has been much abused of late) is not some kind of political alignment - it is about maximum effective working  class unity in the face of a direct threat to its organisations (plural).  Now I don't underestimate how much mutual antagonism stood in the way of realising it.  But what ought the KPD to have done?  I still don't know what the answer to this if it isn't a united front?


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## TremulousTetra (Nov 8, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> So the KPD should have given themselves over to serving as the "armed wing" of a united front, exposing the entire membership to liquidation while the SPD sat back and reaped any benefits?


WTF  just make stuff up.


> You hang everything on the "social fascism" _schtick_, but the KPD/SPD animus preceded that *and* ran deeper. If you knew your history, you'd know why the KPD, even outwith following Moscow's direction, would have had a hard time aligning with the SPD.


So they had a good excuse of being on the receiving end of a history of sectarian abuse by the SDP, to put revenge before revolution and the interest of the working class?where did that get them? The concentration camps.

anyway, fuck this, this has been done on here. Answer the question that articulate asked. If not united front, what?


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## TremulousTetra (Nov 8, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Quite.
> To reduce the attitude of the KPD to extremely simplistic terms, "fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me". I've tried to get this through to rmp3 many times - that the KPD weren't being spiteful in refusing a united front with the SPD on the basis of the SPD being "social fascists", they were bearing in mind history and an appreciation of the SPD's constituency, and what the KPD could expect from such a united front.


you dont get it.





articul8 said:


> yes - are you saying that the SPD wasn't a party supported by millions of German workers?
> 
> [edit - to reply to Joe's clarification] Yes they did, until it was too late. I'm not one-sidedly blaming the KPD here by any means.


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## TremulousTetra (Nov 8, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Let's turn that question around a bit.
> 
> What do you think should have been their position given the history between the SPD and KPD?


What do you think?


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 8, 2011)

articul8 said:


> This is to miss the meaning of a genuine united front - which is not some amorphous unity mongering with pacifists and liberals (which is where - I agree - the ANL Mk II/UAF goes wrong btw) - it's about agreement amongst working class organisations to fight the common fascist enemy wherever it is found, whilst continuing to promote their own different programmes.



Except that's it's hard to establish that the above is what the SPD had in mind for a united front, especially one that would have seen the KPD membership physically risking far more than the SPD. It would have been convenient for the SPD for the KPD to decimate (or worse) its grassroots membership "on the streets" while the majority of the SPD membership (even excluding the "fair-weather friends" who oscillated between the SPD and the nationalist parties) held itself aloof from such uncouth endeavour as physical direct action.


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 8, 2011)

Joe Reilly said:


> Which is precisely what the SPD failed to do throughout the 20's and 30's.



At least, they failed to do what the KPD and the NSDAP, DNP etc did, which was to retain their own paramilitary formations and to deploy them tactically where and when required.


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 8, 2011)

articul8 said:


> yes - are you saying that the SPD wasn't a party supported by millions of German workers?



The SPD had millions of members who were German workers.
They also had millions of members who were members of the _petit _and_ haute bourgeoisie._

The KPD, on the other hand, drew the great majority of its membership from the German working classes.

Ponder that, and on how the more socially-diverse membership of the SPD meant that it in effect represented mostly a contested centre-ground rather than the interests of "the workers".


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 8, 2011)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> you dont get it.



I entirely "get it". I've studied the history of inter-war Germany from several different perspectives - from the perspectives of KPD and SPD members who wrote about Weimar pre- and post-WW2, from the perspective of academic historians, and from the popular historical perspective.

In two languages.

The SPD represented their membership, the KPD theirs. The intersection between the two was partial, as was the commonality of interest.


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## TremulousTetra (Nov 8, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> I entirely "get it". I've studied the history of inter-war Germany from several different perspectives - from the perspectives of KPD and SPD members who wrote about Weimar pre- and post-WW2, from the perspective of academic historians, and from the popular historical perspective.
> 
> In two languages.
> 
> The SPD represented their membership, the KPD theirs. The intersection between the two was partial, as was the commonality of interest.


but you dont get the point articulate is making in english


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## TremulousTetra (Nov 8, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> The SPD had millions of members who were German workers.


so when the UAF ALLEGEDLY labelled the workers who vote BNP fascist, is this wrong [eta] tactically?


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## articul8 (Nov 8, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> The SPD represented their membership, the KPD theirs. The intersection between the two was partial, as was the commonality of interest.


Obviously.  But where they *did* share a common interest was in not seeing their meetings, their organisations, smashed by fascists who didn't discriminate but wanted the entire workers movement smashed.  That was the basis not for a political realignment or merger, sure, but for a limited but real effectively tactical unity against a common threat.

Now, if you don't  believe that a united front was achievable (or desirable?) what do you suggest the KPD should have done?  Seriously, given that the situation isn't one of their choosing, there's no point just saying, well, we don't have the strength to beat the fascists on our own, but the SPD are a shower of cunts.  That might be true but surely the first pre-requisite is not being smashed off the streets?


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 8, 2011)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> but you dont get the point articulate is making in english



I get articul8's point. Perhaps I don't "get" whatever it is you're trying to read into it?


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 8, 2011)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> so when the UAF ALLEGEDLY labelled the workers who vote BNP fascist, is this wrong [eta] tactically?



Your point has no relevance.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 8, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Your point has no relevance.


his points so seldom do


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 8, 2011)

articul8 said:


> Obviously. But where they *did* share a common interest was in not seeing their meetings, their organisations, smashed by fascists who didn't discriminate but wanted the entire workers movement smashed. That was the basis not for a political realignment or merger, sure, but for a limited but real effectively tactical unity against a common threat.
> 
> Now, if you don't believe that a united front was achievable (or desirable?) what do you suggest the KPD should have done? Seriously, given that the situation isn't one of their choosing, there's no point just saying, well, we don't have the strength to beat the fascists on our own, but the SPD are a shower of cunts. That might be true but surely the first pre-requisite is not being smashed off the streets?



How well-informed are you on the minutiae of SPD/KPD contact on the subject of a united front? As Joe Reilly mentioned earlier, the main impetus behind SPD representations to the KPD was for the KPD's members to act as a "sword and shield" for the SPD, doing the street-fighting and intelligence-gathering for the putative untited front, while deriving very few political benefits.

As I've also emphasised several times, the SPD were either not interested in resistance on the streets or (in some cases) worried that they might lose political legitimacy with part of their constituency if they undertook such tactics. A united front to prevent the SPD and KPD getting "smashed off the streets" wouldn't, at least in the view of contemporary commentators such as Evelyn Anderson or later academic commentators such as Bracher, have contributed much more manpower to such resistance than the KPD raised alone. Most of the "street-fighters" who had any sympathy with the SPD had already gone over to the KPD by the late 1920s.
Because of the above, I'm not sanguine that a united front would have produced much more resistance than the KPD alone did, politically or "on the street.


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## Joe Reilly (Nov 8, 2011)

articul8 said:


> Obviously. But where they *did* share a common interest was in not seeing their meetings, their organisations, smashed by fascists who didn't discriminate but wanted the entire workers movement smashed. That was the basis not for a political realignment or merger, sure, but for a limited but real effectively tactical unity against a common threat.
> 
> Now, if you don't believe that a united front was achievable (or desirable?) what do you suggest the KPD should have done? Seriously, given that the situation isn't one of their choosing, there's no point just saying, well, we don't have the strength to beat the fascists on our own, but the SPD are a shower of cunts. That might be true but surely the first pre-requisite is not being smashed off the streets?



First off, the KPD were _not_ 'smashed off the streets'. Even though they were outnumbered they has shown themselves perfectly capable of holding their own. Nor were they always on the backfoot. Their tactics was both defensive and offensive. Something Goebbels was fretting about as late as 1932.

As for the SPD, it wasn't just that the KPD didn't like/trust them that prevented a united front. It was quite simply that in the battle for control of the streets the SDP was found wanting. The KPD for example lost as most as many street-fighters in (52) in Prussia in one year, as the SPD (54) across the whole of Germany in 8 years!

Put bluntly, though the SPD has the numbers they lacked heart. As a consequence even if the through their weight behind the united front, their contribution on the streets would have at best, been marginal.


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## TremulousTetra (Nov 9, 2011)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> so when the UAF ALLEGEDLY labelled the workers who vote BNP fascist, is this wrong [eta] tactically?





ViolentPanda said:


> Your point has no relevance.


well don't you allege the UAF label anybody who votes BNP fascist, and say this is tactically inept? so I am interested in whether you think the KP D labelling SDP supporters social fascist, has any similar tactical significance.


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## TremulousTetra (Nov 9, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> How well-informed are you on the minutiae of SPD/KPD contact on the subject of a united front? As Joe Reilly mentioned earlier, the main impetus behind SPD representations to the KPD was for the KPD's members to act as a "sword and shield" for the SPD, doing the street-fighting and intelligence-gathering for the putative untited front, while deriving very few political benefits.
> 
> As I've also emphasised several times, the SPD were either not interested in resistance on the streets or (in some cases) worried that they might lose political legitimacy with part of their constituency if they undertook such tactics. A united front to prevent the SPD and KPD getting "smashed off the streets" wouldn't, at least in the view of contemporary commentators such as Evelyn Anderson or later academic commentators such as Bracher, have contributed much more manpower to such resistance than the KPD raised alone. Most of the "street-fighters" who had any sympathy with the SPD had already gone over to the KPD by the late 1920s.
> Because of the above, I'm not sanguine that a united front would have produced much more resistance than the KPD alone did, politically or "on the street.


but that is not relevant to answering his question if not the United front, what was the alternative strategy?

"Now, if you don't believe that a united front was achievable (or desirable?) what do you suggest the KPD should have done?"​


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 9, 2011)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> well don't you allege the UAF label anybody who votes BNP fascist, and say this is tactically inept? so I am interested in whether you think the KP D labelling SDP supporters social fascist, has any similar tactical significance.



The two aren't comparable, but rather than have whine any more, I'll address your irrelevant point.

I call *anyone* (whether a political movement or an individual) who attributes the label "fascist" to a BNP voter, or to the BNP themselves, inept, because misattribution of that label weakens the word's *actual* meaning. I prefer to call racist nationalists "racist nationalists", unless their racist nationalism actually includes enough signifiers of fascism, at which time I'll call them fascists. Chanting about "the fascist BNP" might make you pop a boner, but it doesn't actually *say* much.

The label the KPD applied to the SPD, while emotive (and constructed by Moscow, not Berlin) and inaccurate, was a response to the record of the SPD in government and opposition (as well as numerous other matters). We talk nowadays about how Chamberlain "appeased" the Nazis, but conveniently forget that the SPD played such a safe game that they invariably ended up setting and supporting rightward policy that harmed the working classes, appeasing the nationalists. Like many social-democratic parties in the 20th century they were more comfortable accommodating power than supporting the worker.
Was their politics a social fascism? No. Did the label have *any* utility? Yes, it drew attention to the political direction of the SPD, a nominally social-democratic party which, from it's earliest parliamentary manifestation had voted *with* power more often than against, and did not act to stop the conspiracies toward dictatorship. The SPD were enablers, not just through the Enabling Act itself, but throughout their parliamentary existence.

As you see, in the latter case the label "fascist" has utility, in the former case none at all.


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 9, 2011)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> but that is not relevant to answering his question if not the United front, what was the alternative strategy?
> 
> "Now, if you don't believe that a united front was achievable (or desirable?) what do you suggest the KPD should have done?"​



It's *entirely* relevant to show that his question is constructed around his misreading/misrepresentation of history, and I did answer his question. The "alternative strategy" is what actually happened: The KPD conducted the physical resistance themselves, just as they'd have most likely (given the rich historical data) had to do if they'd formed a united front with the SPD.


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## Joe Reilly (Nov 9, 2011)

malatesta32 said:


> KPD blunders: the joint Berlin transport strike with the fash...



This is yet anothe carefully cultivated Trot myth. There was no 'joint' transport strike. It was communist led - the Nazis, fearful of working class opinion, sent supporters to the picket lines in order to emphasise their socialist as against nationalist credentials.


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## TremulousTetra (Nov 9, 2011)

Joe Reilly said:


> This is yet anothe carefully cultivated Trot myth. There was no 'joint' transport strike. It was communist led - the Nazis, fearful of working class opinion, sent supporters to the picket lines in order to emphasise their socialist as against nationalist credentials.


ahhh, I was struggling to remember this incident. And you say it was a myth. Oh well, I don't know the fact of the matter one way or the other. So what happened, they kicked them off the picket line?


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## TremulousTetra (Nov 9, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> It's *entirely* relevant to show that his question is constructed around his misreading/misrepresentation of history, and I did answer his question. The "alternative strategy" is what actually happened: The KPD conducted the physical resistance themselves, just as they'd have most likely (given the rich historical data) had to do if they'd formed a united front with the SPD.


ahhhhh, ok. So you are saying there is no different strategy that the KPD could have employed beyond the one they did. that there was an inevitability to the rise of fascism in Germany? There is no lessons for anybody reformist or revolutionary?

You see, I'm quite prepared to bow to your reading of history, compared to other people's reading of history which contradicts you, for arguments sake. That a united front in Germany was impossible. BUT, what are the lessons for today? Do we unite reformist and revolutionary and smash them while they are still small, as Hitler suggested should have been done? You see I think the reformists in Britain, and revolutionary parties such as the SWP [but not sorely] have moved on, they have learned the lesson that if they do not unite and fight, they both surely perish in the face of a fascist government, who will use the state to physically destroy them both.

For whilst I can see need for street fighting the fascist, is that the only tactic open? Without control of the state, the fascist in Germany could never have smashed the KPD and the SDP. Whilst I absolutely agree revolutionaries cannot merely occupy control of the state, like a driver in a car, and drive the state in any direction it wants, throwing up any road blocks you could to Hitler gaining control the state in Germany, would have meant he didn't have the resources to destroy the SDP and the KPD.no?


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## TremulousTetra (Nov 9, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> I call *anyone* (whether a political movement or an individual) who attributes the label "fascist" to a BNP voter, or to the BNP themselves, inept, because misattribution of that label weakens the word's *actual* meaning. I prefer to call racist nationalists "racist nationalists", unless their racist nationalism actually includes enough signifiers of fascism, at which time I'll call them fascists. Chanting about "the fascist BNP" might make you pop a boner, but it doesn't actually *say* much.


hmmmm, don't take this question the wrong way. Though a stupid man, I've seen lots of evidence that suggests Griffin was clever enough to realise he couldn't openly be fascist, and get elected. For this reason alone he concealed his fascism, but remained one. What do you believe? He never was a fascist? Or he had moved on?



> The label the KPD applied to the SPD, while emotive (and constructed by Moscow, not Berlin) and inaccurate, was a response to the record of the SPD in government and opposition (as well as numerous other matters). We talk nowadays about how Chamberlain "appeased" the Nazis, but conveniently forget that the SPD played such a safe game that they invariably ended up setting and supporting rightward policy that harmed the working classes, appeasing the nationalists. Like many social-democratic parties in the 20th century they were more comfortable accommodating power than supporting the worker.


I don't think it's really something I would forget. [I quite liked http://www.amazon.co.uk/Lost-Revolution-Germany-1918-1923/dp/1898876223 ]


> Was their politics a social fascism? No. Did the label have *any* utility? Yes, it drew attention to the political direction of the SPD, a nominally social-democratic party which, from it's earliest parliamentary manifestation had voted *with* power more often than against, and did not act to stop the conspiracies toward dictatorship. The SPD were enablers, not just through the Enabling Act itself, but throughout their parliamentary existence.


I don't think so at all. As you say, the label was as a result of strategy by Moscow, not Berlin. The same control was held over the British Communist Party. The late 20s and early 30s saw the British Communist Party playing a key role in building rank-and-file organisation and resistance.the late 30s saw the British Communist Party switch to popular frontism. Why? Because the tactics of both the German and British communist parties with dictated by the needs of Russian imperialism, not the best interests of the working class.



> As you see, in the latter case the label "fascist" has utility, in the former case none at all.


I do understand now a lot more where you are coming from. But I still disagree with you. I think it comes from a different attitude to how ideas change. To tactical differences. But thanks anyway for explaining your ideas clearly.

for me, I don't believe that the working classes views about reformists/etc change because revolutionaries construct the correct labels. I think, as does the SWP, ideas change in struggle. That in every single thing you do, you try to bring a maximum number of people you can into self activity of trying to take control of their own destiny. In this activity/struggle they cannot help but learn for themselves who is on their side, and who isn't. The emancipation of the working class, has to be the act of the working class, and all that. This is not just that they have to take control, but they have to learn their own lessons. They cannot learn these, if they are not fighting. Any barrier to bringing the maximum number into self activity is wrong imo. Labelling the rank-and-file of the SDP social fascist, and the kpd isolating them selves in glorious revolutionary purity was wrong FMPOV. Whether a United struggle against the fascists was achievable in Germany is another argument. But it remains in my opinion, the lesson of Germany.

PS.in fairness to you, I do accept that my position comes from a far greater amount of ignorance of the facts, than you have. You have clearly studied the topic very hard, and are very knowledgeable. However, my understanding of the topic has come from people who have studied the topic  equally as hard as you, and are equally knowledgeable. It has also come from studying the topic at University for my dissertation, and so sources that they were not SWP. Who is right and who is wrong I don't know categorically. But no surprise, I do not find your arguments as convincing as the ones my worldview has succumbed to. We will just have to agree to disagree. and that is not a bad thing.


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 9, 2011)

Joe Reilly said:


> This is yet anothe carefully cultivated Trot myth. There was no 'joint' transport strike. It was communist led - the Nazis, fearful of working class opinion, sent supporters to the picket lines in order to emphasise their socialist as against nationalist credentials.



And unfortunately while some of the Nazis were run off by KPD members, not all of them were, which (as you say) gave the Nazis traction.


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 9, 2011)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> ahhh, I was struggling to remember this incident. And you say it was a myth. Oh well, I don't know the fact of the matter one way or the other. So what happened, they kicked them off the picket line?



Some KPD members reacted as one usually does when faced with such scum, and did indeed kick them off of the picket line. Others (a minority, but nonetheless enough so that the "cooperation" myth is still peddled) played "wait and see", asking party bosses what they should do, and giving the Nazis enough breathing space to be able to posture.


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## TremulousTetra (Nov 9, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Hmmm, I've provided you with historical fact many times, including with reference to the KPD's refusal to enter governmental coalition with the SPD, but you ignore it in favour of positing that collaboration with the SPD would have led to an effective anti-fascist strategy, and fail to grasp that in terms of activists, and in terms of actually-existing power to legislate, any coalition would have still not been enough, *even in government*, to actually do more than apply a brake to the rise of fascism. To actually have made Germany less amenable to fascism would have required a plethora of variations to history such as France conceding that its own reparation claims were unrealistic; the two major economic crises in Germany between the wars to have not occurred, or to have been far milder, and so not actually "crises" at all; and for the Dawes Plan to have failed at the negotiation stage at the latest.
> The KPD and SPD would also have required clairvoyant powers to foresee that the Weimar constitution would also have to have been amended to remove or amend the seemingly innocuous section 48.


don't remember you pointing this out, butI already knew this, an this is one of my points. The kpd should not have refused to enter a coalition government with the SDP. If they had done they could have applied a break to fascism, and that may have been all that was necessary.

I think it was in Trotsky's fascism and Stalinism and the United front Trotsky quotes Goebbels saying, all is lost, the cadre is going over to the kpd en masse.

there was nothing inevitable about  Hitler taking power. It was on a knife edge. And putting the interests of the working class before the interests of Russian imperialism, could possibly have made a difference.


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 9, 2011)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> ahhhhh, ok. So you are saying there is no different strategy that the KPD could have employed beyond the one they did. that there was an inevitability to the rise of fascism in Germany? There is no lessons for anybody reformist or revolutionary?



In my considered opinion, as I've stated previously, even if *Hitlerist Nazism* could have been avoided, a right-nationalist politics which contained most of the main constituents of fascism as proposed by Griffiths would have come about, not merely as a result of Versailles and Weimar, but because of historical and political currents going back to the mid-19th century. Bear in mind that you're talking about a polity where a significant minority of the electorate supported the idea of an extra-parliamentary dictatorship right up until they got one, and who left a hole in their constitution - a hole the SPD never bothered to close - that virtually validated such a takeover.



> You see, I'm quite prepared to bow to your reading of history, compared to other people's reading of history which contradicts you, for arguments sake. That a united front in Germany was impossible. BUT, what are the lessons for today? Do we unite reformist and revolutionary and smash them while they are still small, as Hitler suggested should have been done? You see I think the reformists in Britain, and revolutionary parties such as the SWP [but not sorely] have moved on, they have learned the lesson that if they do not unite and fight, they both surely perish in the face of a fascist government, who will use the state to physically destroy them both.



In my opinion conditions aren't such that a united front is required, and if one were, due to a hard swerve to the right, I'm sanguine that one would take place.
What I don't see happening is people coming together in anything but loose association (_a la_ Barking and Dagenham, which was a "triumph" of people coming together with a specific aim, not a UAF victory) when the threat doesn't warrant it. It doesn't make tactical sense to use your limited armoury and ammunition except as needed, and one-off cooperation is harder for the opposition to nail down. Bear in mind that in this equation "we" are insurgent, so using insurgent tactics, rather than massing our divisions on "their" border, makes sense.



> For whilst I can see need for street fighting the fascist, is that the only tactic open? Without control of the state, the fascist in Germany could never have smashed the KPD and the SDP. Whilst I absolutely agree revolutionaries cannot merely occupy control of the state, like a driver in a car, and drive the state in any direction it wants, throwing up any road blocks you could to Hitler gaining control the state in Germany, would have meant he didn't have the resources to destroy the SDP and the KPD.no?



You seem to be forgetting the political structure of the German state and the _lande_. Hitler had a legal and legitimate (insofar as any similar group was) power base in several of the _lande_ even before he was imprisoned. It was never a question of merely putting roadblocks in his way, it would have required the wholesale overwhelming of right-nationalist sentiment throughout the _lande_ in order to remove the various nationalist groupings that the Nazis were interlinked with too. As it was, various elements of the left were proscribed by the individual _lande_ *prior* to Hitler's emergence from Landsberg. The historic and social currents in the middle and upper classes - guiding the hands of those with power and influence - made some form of right-wing dictatorship nigh on inevitable in Germany, regardless of physical and/or political resistance from the left.


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 9, 2011)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> hmmmm, don't take this question the wrong way. Though a stupid man, I've seen lots of evidence that suggests Griffin was clever enough to realise he couldn't openly be fascist, and get elected. For this reason alone he concealed his fascism, but remained one. What do you believe? He never was a fascist? Or he had moved on?



I believe that by the mid-nineties, he'd realised that neo-Nazism was a busted flush, and that fascism _per se_, as opposed to a politics that contained elements of fascism, but was based on democracy, wouldn't work. In this he'd been preceded by most of the right in Europe, so he had plenty of examples through which to illustrate his ideas to his followers.
Was he ever a fascist or a neo-Nazi? Of course he was, but many of those members of the BNP who you could have legitimately called "fascists" pissed off when Griffin began to atempt to turn the BNP into an electable political party.



> I don't think it's really something I would forget. [I quite liked http://www.amazon.co.uk/Lost-Revolution-Germany-1918-1923/dp/1898876223 ]


You might not forget the multiple instances, but people tend to forget the contexts, and the threads that link all those instances together.



> I don't think so at all. As you say, the label was as a result of strategy by Moscow, not Berlin. The same control was held over the British Communist Party. The late 20s and early 30s saw the British Communist Party playing a key role in building rank-and-file organisation and resistance.the late 30s saw the British Communist Party switch to popular frontism. Why? Because the tactics of both the German and British communist parties with dictated by the needs of Russian imperialism, not the best interests of the working class.



The (rather naive) assumption was made by the British, german and many other nations' communists that Moscow represented the interests of all of the international proletariat, not merely the interests of a group of Bolshevik beards in the Kremlin.



> I do understand now a lot more where you are coming from. But I still disagree with you. I think it comes from a different attitude to how ideas change. To tactical differences. But thanks anyway for explaining your ideas clearly.
> 
> for me, I don't believe that the working classes views about reformists/etc change because revolutionaries construct the correct labels. I think, as does the SWP, ideas change in struggle. That in every single thing you do, you try to bring a maximum number of people you can into self activity of trying to take control of their own destiny. In this activity/struggle they cannot help but learn for themselves who is on their side, and who isn't. The emancipation of the working class, has to be the act of the working class, and all that. This is not just that they have to take control, but they have to learn their own lessons. They cannot learn these, if they are not fighting. Any barrier to bringing the maximum number into self activity is wrong imo. Labelling the rank-and-file of the SDP social fascist, and the kpd isolating them selves in glorious revolutionary purity was wrong FMPOV. Whether a United struggle against the fascists was achievable in Germany is another argument. But it remains in my opinion, the lesson of Germany.
> 
> PS.in fairness to you, I do accept that my position comes from a far greater amount of ignorance of the facts, than you have. You have clearly studied the topic very hard, and are very knowledgeable. However, my understanding of the topic has come from people who have studied the topic equally as hard as you, and are equally knowledgeable. It has also come from studying the topic at University for my dissertation, and so sources that they were not SWP. Who is right and who is wrong I don't know categorically. But no surprise, I do not find your arguments as convincing as the ones my worldview has succumbed to. We will just have to agree to disagree. and that is not a bad thing.



It wasn't the rank and file of the SPD who were labelled "social fascist". It was the hierarchy and it's policies.[/quote][/quote]


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 9, 2011)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> don't remember you pointing this out, butI already knew this, an this is one of my points. The kpd should not have refused to enter a coalition government with the SDP. If they had done they could have applied a break to fascism, and that may have been all that was necessary.
> 
> I think it was in Trotsky's fascism and Stalinism and the United front Trotsky quotes Goebbels saying, all is lost, the cadre is going over to the kpd en masse.
> 
> there was nothing inevitable about Hitler taking power. It was on a knife edge. And putting the interests of the working class before the interests of Russian imperialism, could possibly have made a difference.



I disagree that coalition would have made a difference. In fact given the nature of most coalitions we cannot be sure that a KPD-SPD coalition wouldn't have hastened fascism, given the nature of the political opposition and their links to the apparatus of state power.

As for Hitler, I agree that Hitler himself wasn't inevitable, but a fascist or near-fascist dictatorship? That was almost inevitable for Germany. What *wasn't* inevitable was what came with the dictatorship.


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## TremulousTetra (Nov 9, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> I disagree that coalition would have made a difference. In fact given the nature of most coalitions we cannot be sure that a KPD-SPD coalition wouldn't have hastened fascism, given the nature of the political opposition and their links to the apparatus of state power.
> 
> As for Hitler, I agree that Hitler himself wasn't inevitable, but a fascist or near-fascist dictatorship? That was almost inevitable for Germany. What *wasn't* inevitable was what came with the dictatorship.


but the attractiveness of the Nazi party to the German ruling class was it's paramilitary wing could be used to smash working-class organisation. If Goebbels is to be believed, this was falling between their fingers as they seem to offer nothing different to what had gone before.

someone else wrote about how the paramilitary prowess of the Nazi party was massively exaggerated. Much of their displays of power where pageantry, marching in and out of places, for show, rather than direct opposition. And that it was only as they came to power, that they had the resources.

if as you suggested earlier the SDP was not as prone to streetfighting because of its middle-class constituents, why were the overwhelmingly middle-class constituents of the Nazi party prone to streetfighting? Surely they weren't, it was the working-class cadre that that Goebbels was talking about who will street fighters. Supposedly leaving to join the communist.

if you look at Germany in the 1920s, there is massive strike waves, that attracted the middle classes into 'revolutionary' influence. there was a massive growth of middle-class occupations unionisation. There was no saying this couldn't be done again. What was needed was belief in the viability of such a movement. what was needed was adequate "poll of attraction". Because, unfortunately, imbued with the muck of ages the working-class demands leadership. It's all its ever been used to. Naïvely yes, because the leadership in Russia had gone through a fundamental change, but as you point out Russia still held much weight as a beacon for something different. So much so that Communist parties would have followed its lead almost blindly.

For me responsibility doesn't really lye with the KPD. It lies with Moscow. If ifs and ands were pots and pans, I'd be a tinker. But, if Lenin and Trotsky were still there, if Moscow had put the interests of the international working class before its own, there could have been a completely different outcome. They would have maintained the Communist parties building of the rank-and-file working-class organisation, like they were in the late 20s and early 30s in the UK.they would have maintained the influence of revolution from below, rather than revolution from above as Stalin offered.

Now I know you consider the revolutionary party bureaucracy, to be like the trade union bureaucracy, as a bureaucracy they become more concerned with the interests of themselves, and their party structures, rather than the interests of the working class. But I think this is structuralism. It denies agency. There's a world of difference between the ideology of the trade union bureaucrat whose reason for existence is to manage the contradiction between capital and labour, and the ideology of someone who believes that only a classless society is the way forward for humanity.. Lenin and Trotsky fell into that category, Stalin didn't. I is with Stalin that responsibility lies for Nazi Germany. IMO

anyway this is all moot. We are never going to agree.

" You might not forget the multiple instances, but people tend to forget the contexts, and the threads that link all those instances together."

I am aware of many of the threads of thought, the influence of the Junka's, the long history of anti-Semitism, the argument that Hitler was some kind of proto-German etc etc. but there was another thread, that the lost revolution show's. And whilst you're prepared to accept context the Germany, what about the context from Russia. The annihilation of the Russian working-class in the Civil War, the invasions, the failure to spread the revolution from a backwards country, all these contributed to the strangulation of Bolshevism. It wasn't just some kind of structuralist inevitability.


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## TremulousTetra (Nov 9, 2011)

anyway before all turns sour as usual, I do actually have a lot of respect for the reservations of anarchist about revolutionary parties based upon Leninism, Trotsky etc, and their preferred methodology. I'd genuinely, genuinely would love to see the anarchists prove me wrong, because I have nothing to lose but my chains.


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## malatesta32 (Nov 10, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> And unfortunately while some of the Nazis were run off by KPD members, not all of them were, which (as you say) gave the Nazis traction.


you got a source for that panda?  the 2 refs i got were from 'academic' books and its`difficult to cross reference. also this looks` pretty neat!
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Political-V...=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1320927735&sr=1-1
anyone know about it?


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 10, 2011)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> but the attractiveness of the Nazi party to the German ruling class was it's paramilitary wing could be used to smash working-class organisation..



Only partially-accurate. Another part of the attractiveness was rearmament and everything (incl. militarisation) that went with it.



> If Goebbels is to be believed, this was falling between their fingers as they seem to offer nothing different to what had gone before.



If Hitler is to be believed (and that's a stretch, I grant you!), he'd always intended to "cleanse" the NSDAP of "socialist" elements, and his actions from '28 onward do bear that out, so while No-Balls might have gotten hysterical, I'm sure Hitler was perfectly satisfied with the newer cadre members (bearing in mind he'd by then harnessed some of the most reactionary young people in Germany - the students).



> someone else wrote about how the paramilitary prowess of the Nazi party was massively exaggerated. Much of their displays of power where pageantry, marching in and out of places, for show, rather than direct opposition. And that it was only as they came to power, that they had the resources.



Arguably Hitler's publishing interests, and the funds from them, meant that the Nazis had "ready money", and the high-volume backing that the likes of Schacht helped Hitler put into play also meant that from the mid-'20s, they also had a cushion of resources. Add to that their infiltration of state and federal bureaucracy and the power that having done so gave them, and resource-wise they were able to out-perform every single other nationalist political party in Germany years before they took power.

As for paramilitary prowess, it was a numbers game. The Nazis had greater numbers of bodies.



> if as you suggested earlier the SDP was not as prone to streetfighting because of its middle-class constituents, why were the overwhelmingly middle-class constituents of the Nazi party prone to streetfighting? Surely they weren't, it was the working-class cadre that that Goebbels was talking about who will street fighters. Supposedly leaving to join the communist.



It's not black and white. We know that the Brownshirts were an agglomeration of people from different classes who stepped onto the Nazi traain at different times. There were a hard-core of former enlisted men who'd come to the NSDAP through the _Freikorps_ movement, plus a significant "spine" of junior and middle-rank officers. There were those (mostly early recruits) who actually believed that Hitler would deliver socialism, there were the mostly rural peasant class of what we might call "yeoman" rank, who owned their own land and believed Hitler on the subject of land reform as well as _lebensraum_.
Although you can eventually grade all this in terms of class membership, you need to bear in mind that Hitler preached to different audiences at different times, and delivered different sermons. The SA had a cross-class membership at least partly because of this.
BTW, didn't suggest that the SPD weren't "prone to street-fighting", both Joe and I said that the SPD hierarchy forbade their members participation in street-fighting (perish the thought that they engage is "squaddism", eh?  ).



> if you look at Germany in the 1920s, there is massive strike waves, that attracted the middle classes into 'revolutionary' influence...


And also, massively, into reactionary nationalist influence.



> there was a massive growth of middle-class occupations unionisation.



True.

As I recall, the two main Civil Service unions, as well as the professional associations that represented lawyers, were rightist, though. 



> There was no saying this couldn't be done again. What was needed was belief in the viability of such a movement. what was needed was adequate "poll of attraction". Because, unfortunately, imbued with the muck of ages the working-class demands leadership. It's all its ever been used to. Naïvely yes, because the leadership in Russia had gone through a fundamental change, but as you point out Russia still held much weight as a beacon for something different. So much so that Communist parties would have followed its lead almost blindly.
> 
> 
> > I think you're assuming that unionisation equated with a swing to the left, rather than to the centre or the right. Overwhelmingly it was the two latter positions, not the former. Imagine an entire _bloc_ of m/c professional associations and TUs all controlled by the equivalent of Frank Chapple at his most reactionary.
> ...


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 10, 2011)

malatesta32 said:


> you got a source for that panda? the 2 refs i got were from 'academic' books and its`difficult to cross reference. also this looks` pretty neat!
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Political-V...=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1320927735&sr=1-1
> anyone know about it?



From memory, Evelyn Anderson's "Hammer or Anvil - The Story of the German Working Class Movement". Goes into the fact that because the original union strike vote fell just short of the legal trigger point for strike (75%), the strike was unofficial and therefore gave wriggle room for the political opportunism of the Nazis, although (as I said) this wasn't tolerated by all the strikers, and toleration wore progressively thinner as the strike stretched over its' 5 day course.


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## cogg (Nov 10, 2011)

Here's an old RA article that seems pertinent to the discussion:
*For more than fifty years the ‘United Front’ has been a talisman of the Left. Leading SWP member and journalist, Paul Foot, recently explained why. Astonishingly as Joe Reilly discovers, the whole rationale is based entirely on a series of lies.*
Maybe it’s something to do with the Millennium but revisionism is everywhere. You can hardly open a paper without some widely accepted historical truth being traduced as ‘myth’. From the comment of American academic Norman Finkelstien that the Imperial War Museum view of the Holocaust read ‘like a Harry Potter story’; to the Mel Gibson reworking of the American War of Independence, to the refighting of ‘The Battle of Britain’ along class lines.
Yet in the midst all the dissembling, a single paragraph by Paul Foot, on where the blame for the rise of Hitler should lie, is, by some distance, the most treacherous and despicable of the crop. Where The _Mirror _columnist Charlie Catchpole rushes to the defence of the well cultivated myth of ‘The Few’ as “dashing young pilots with upper class accents” (when as C4’s Secret _History _shows they were overwhelmingly working class recruits, buttressed, by more than a fair smattering of generally, better trained, Poles) Foot invents a series of myths to malign ‘the few’ in another not unrelated conflict. Catchpole does not attempt to deny the facts explored in _Secret History, _but was insistent nonetheless that it was “nasty and mean-spirited” of the makers of the programme to bring it up.
‘Nasty and mean-spirited’ were some of the more restrained criticisms that greeted Norman Finkelstein’s book _The Holocaust_ _Industry. _Unlike Mel Gibson’s, _The __Patriot, _which was accused of inventing atrocities in order to depict the British as Nazis, the central charge against Finkelstien is that he is intent on denying the ‘uniqueness’ of the atrocities committed by the Nazis against the Jews. For Jewish leaders like Nazi hunter Simon Wiesenthal and Elie Weisel, the Nazi attempted extermination of the Jews was ‘a unique event - and uniquely irrational’. Weisel for example is insistent the Holocaust remains “a religious mystery, unknowable and inexplicable.” _(Evening Standard)_
As is all too evident, the quarrel generally is not over the hard facts of the past, but more hegemony over the future. For many the past is not history. Indeed in all too often cases as with fascism, the past is not even past.
It is against this backdrop that Foot’s own contribution has emerged. It is a falsification of history at least as politically loaded as the accusations laid against Finkelstien. Because as a mere glance at the map of Europe 2000 shows, the far-right are winning arguments and making substantial political gains hand over fist, without any evidence of a cogent counter-strategy.
Central to this inertia is that notion that fascism was an ‘inexplicable aberration’, and could, had tactics differed a fraction, been entirely avoided, Hitler could have been stopped by entirely legal and, most importantly, non-violent methods. By constitutional means, by democratic elections, by, in a word -pacifism.
Writing in _The __Guardian _on June 3 Foot, by seeking to explain the theoretical underpinning, went out of his way to endorse this line of thinking. “Though their combined vote and their influence in the country was substantially greater than those of the Nazis, both sides - especially the communists - rigidly refused to form a united front against the fascists. The communists, who at one stage were getting 6million votes, renamed the social democrats ‘social fascists’. So great was the sectarian divide in those crucial months before the deluge that the communists preferred even to link up and stage strikes with the fascists rather than campaign in the country and the factories for a unified force against fascism. ‘After Hitler, our turn’ was the boast of communist leader Ernest Thalmann. After Hitler as it happened communists and social democrats were at last united - in the concentration camps.”
Paul Foot is a highly respected and indeed influential journalist, so his thesis deserves to be accorded some respect. I will therefore address the main points chronologically.
Before we begin it is only fair to say that as a simple statement of fact it is in almost every respect false. Worse it is knowingly false. Paul Foot, not to put too fine a point on it, is a liar - and given the level of research on the subject - a brazen one to boot.

*Article continues here: http://www.redaction.org/anti-fascism/the_few.html*

*Reproduced from RA Volume 4, Issue 8, September/October '00*


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## TremulousTetra (Nov 12, 2011)

good article! However, I would redress the balance by saying, the criticism of the KPD is a criticism of comrades. It is not a matter of SDP good, KPD bad.in fact quite the reverse.

Chris Harman book 1919-1923, Germany's Lost Revolution, makes quite clear the despicable role the SDP played in German politics. Especially its counterrevolutionary actions. And so the criticism of the KPD is based upon, what should revolutionaries have done to defend the interests of the working class, themselves, and promote revolution.



> By Stalin's logic every other party, not just the SPD, was "fascist", including the 'Trotsky-fascists' and there would be no difference if the Nazis came to power. This led the KPD leaders to believe
> 
> Hitler​
> coming to office would be the last capitalist government, opening the way to the KPD taking power.​


http://www.socialistparty.org.uk/articles/3701
massive mistakes were made by stallin.and the KPD, like the British Communist Party, were filled with many good revolutionary socialist who were mistaken in being puppets of stalin's imperialist interests.this is what is being criticised in my opinion, rather than the revolutionary commitment of some of the most heroic and finest revolutionaries.

the criticism of the KPD is based upon the analogy made by Trotsky. Trotsky talks of a workplace, where the fascist on one side, and a revolutionary on the other side, and the vast majority of the working class and middle. The fascist tries to influence the workplace towards fascism, and the revolutionary socialist oppositely. This is the lens through which the role of the KPD is analysed. It is being criticised for ultra-leftism, when maximum unity of the WORKING-CLASS was needed, to defend what you've got so you can push on for something better.the article is absolutely right, that the analysis is as much about today, as it is about the past. It is as much about self-criticism, as it is about criticism of the KPD. It is about learning the lessons of history.



> Behind the banners of the SPD and the KPD were millions of workers. Beyond their membership, they had massive support. In free elections, socialist and communist votes always, apart from July 1932, outpolled Hitler.


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## Casually Red (Nov 12, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> How well-informed are you on the minutiae of SPD/KPD contact on the subject of a united front? As Joe Reilly mentioned earlier, the main impetus behind SPD representations to the KPD was for the KPD's members to act as a "sword and shield" for the SPD, doing the street-fighting and intelligence-gathering for the putative untited front, while deriving very few political benefits.
> 
> As I've also emphasised several times, the SPD were either not interested in resistance on the streets or (in some cases) worried that they might lose political legitimacy with part of their constituency if they undertook such tactics. A united front to prevent the SPD and KPD getting "smashed off the streets" wouldn't, at least in the view of contemporary commentators such as Evelyn Anderson or later academic commentators such as Bracher, have contributed much more manpower to such resistance than the KPD raised alone. Most of the "street-fighters" who had any sympathy with the SPD had already gone over to the KPD by the late 1920s.
> Because of the above, I'm not sanguine that a united front would have produced much more resistance than the KPD alone did, politically or "on the street.



Had not the SPD once urged the likes of the Freikorp to restore order on the streets ? And green lighted the murders of Rosa Luxemburg and Karl Liebknecht ? I doubt theyd have been much use , and if anything contributed greatly to the rise of fascism .


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 12, 2011)

Casually Red said:


> Had not the SPD once urged the likes of the Freikorp to restore order on the streets ? And green lighted the murders of Rosa Luxemburg and Karl Liebknecht ?



Yep.



> I doubt theyd have been much use , and if anything contributed greatly to the rise of fascism .



Doubtless indirectly, but, as they say, "the road to hell is paved with good intentions".[/quote]


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## Casually Red (Nov 12, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Yep.
> 
> Doubtless indirectly, but, as they say, "the road to hell is paved with good intentions".


[/quote]

the road to hell is signposted by social democrat wankers


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## Joe Reilly (Nov 12, 2011)

SPD bad. KPD good? Really does anyone believe this but yourself?  As a line of argument it would be a lot more convincing had Chris Bambery not accused the KPD fighters of enjoying a 'laddish lifestyle' (Is there any doubt who his contemporary targets were in the mid-1990's?) socially 'fraternising' with Nazis in taverns, 'joint picket lines', a cross over in paramiltary membership and so on.

Just in case anyone is curious about the fraternisation allegation, the one example provided by Bambery is taken from _Beating the Fascists*?*_ by Eve Rosenhaft, where she recounts how a group of passing brown-shirts were invited to join some communists in a Christmas drink.

Bambery leaves the reader to ponder that scene and goes on to extrapolate about the inherent dangers of political violence per se.

Tellingly he omitted to mention the viscious brawl that followed, with one SA member dying of stab wounds a month later.

Oddly enough sharing pubs with the NF was also the 'comradely' accusation laid against the squadists in the early 80's, at the same time as a nascent RA were clearing the NF out of Chapel Market in Islington, the official SWP line recomended activists abandon sales pitches to the NF, where the fascists wouldn't share them.[/quote]


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## The39thStep (Nov 14, 2011)

Joe, can you edit the above post as the way it initially presents itself is as a quote from  Rmp3 rather than a contribution from you.


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## Joe Reilly (Nov 14, 2011)

The39thStep said:


> Joe, can you edit the above post as the way it initially presents itself is as a quote from Rmp3 rather than a contribution from you.



Better?


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## The39thStep (Nov 15, 2011)

Joe Reilly said:


> Better?



sound as a pound


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## krink (Nov 15, 2011)

I was watching some documentaries about griffin/bnp at the weekend and they always seemed to be wanting to follow the lead of French fash Le Pen's FN party. Now that the BNP are destroying themselves it seems they will never have the chance to achieve this aim.

My question is, if the BNP's history is placed alongside the FN's history, did the BNP ever come close to mirroring the FN's achievements?


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 15, 2011)

krink said:


> I was watching some documentaries about griffin/bnp at the weekend and they always seemed to be wanting to follow the lead of French fash Le Pen's FN party. Now that the BNP are destroying themselves it seems they will never have the chance to achieve this aim.
> 
> My question is, if the BNP's history is placed alongside the FN's history, did the BNP ever come close to mirroring the FN's achievements?



Electorally, no. Arguably that's the result of racist nationalism (as opposed to faism, which is abit of a mislabelling, IMO) being somewhat closer to the surface of French politics that in Britain, and because manifestations of egregiously-racist nationalist policies are more historically-recent for the French, as well as racist nationalism having never taken deep roots in British politics. There has been plenty of implicit racism, but little that has been explicit. The BUF failed even more miserably than the BNP have.

IMO the issue is whether the British hard-right learn from Griffin's tenure or not. Personally I'd like to see the hard right continue to splutter, but that'll only happen if they continue their predeliction for in-fighting and inter-right rivalry.


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## TremulousTetra (Nov 15, 2011)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> good article! However, I would redress the balance by saying, the criticism of the KPD is a criticism of comrades. It is not a matter of SDP good, KPD bad.in fact quite the reverse.
> 
> Chris Harman book 1919-1923, Germany's Lost Revolution, makes quite clear the despicable role the SDP played in German politics. Especially its counterrevolutionary actions. And so the criticism of the KPD is based upon, what should revolutionaries have done to defend the interests of the working class, themselves, and promote revolution.
> 
> ...


 your article accused Paul Foot being a barefaced liar, and you're alluding to the same with Bamberry. They are not here to defend themselves, and I am not capable. The question I was addressing, was why so hypercritical of the KPD when learning the lessons of fighting fascism, whilst to some extent ignoring the greater crimes of the SDP? Why, let's say to be more gracious, the bending of the stick to make the point?

To be honest, when you look at my "line of argument" "It [the KPD] is being criticised for ultra-leftism, when maximum unity of the WORKING-CLASS was needed, to defend what you've got so you can push on for something better.the article is absolutely right, that the analysis is as much about today, as it is about the past. It is as much about self-criticism, as it is about criticism of the KPD. It is about learning the lessons of history."
your our post only adds to what I have said there. The criticisms of comrades of the present and the past, is to learn the lessons of history. Which are what for the SWP?

there are many. But one in particular; from your article. "Central to this inertia is that notion that fascism was an ‘inexplicable aberration’, and could, had tactics differed a fraction, been entirely avoided, Hitler could have been stopped by entirely legal and, most importantly, non-violent methods. By constitutional means, by democratic elections, by, in a word -pacifism." I have never seen the SWP anywhere promote pacifism. Certainly not in fighting the fascist. What they do draw a distinction between, is using violence against the fascists by a minority on behalf of the working class, and the mass violence against the fascists by the working-class. Whilst violence is not the only string to the SW bow in fighting the fascist, they oppose the former whilst promoting the latter when tactically expedient/possible. For you cannot promote violence against the fascist by a mass of the working-class, if such mass unity does not exist. If like the KPD you do nothing to promote it, in fact do things to get in the way of it 1. "social fascist lable etc", and have an analysis which denies the scale of the threat 2 "fascist's are no different to any other government". If ANYTHING, the lesson of the KPD is, violence against the fascist by a minority is doomed to failure.

So whilst your article is good, possibly exposing some inaccuracies in the SW historicism, the SW remain true to their strategic aims for every sphere of politics they have been involved in, promoting mass activity above minority activity.

ps. I say possibly exposing inaccuracies of the SWP historicism, I have no evidence to suggest you are wrong, but also those people are not here to defend themselves.

ETA;


ViolentPanda said:


> 2) While Stalin can be blamed, so must Germany's historical development for producing a nation populated by a middle and ruling class whose default politics was to install a dictator or other absolute ruler. Without that willingness, and without the constitutional tools to bring this about that were left in the Weimar constitution "just in case", Germany would have been fascist or near-fascist but probably not Nazi, or anything near as murderous.


while this is all correct, the focus of the revolutionaries, rather than historians, has to be surely to learn those mistakes that revolutionaries made, so you don't repeat them. This is the lense through which the SW looks hypocritically upon the KPD.


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## TremulousTetra (Nov 15, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> I believe that by the mid-nineties, he'd realised that neo-Nazism was a busted flush, and that fascism _per se_, as opposed to a politics that contained elements of fascism, but was based on democracy, wouldn't work. In this he'd been preceded by most of the right in Europe, so he had plenty of examples through which to illustrate his ideas to his followers.
> Was he ever a fascist or a neo-Nazi? Of course he was, but many of those members of the BNP who you could have legitimately called "fascists" pissed off when Griffin began to atempt to turn the BNP into an electable political party.


once you let the genie out of the bottle, or more importantly into government, there is no saying where it will end. Could a BNP once elected democratically, turn an elected governance into dictatorship? To the majority of his audiences Hitler always concealed such intentions. But let's accept your argument.

More importantly, what is the result of all your study, for revolutionaries? Whilst I accept it may possibly be a very accurate historical record you hold in your head, what are the lessons for people such as you and I today, if we WERE a fascist party growing towards office? What tactics should we use?


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## Pickman's model (Nov 15, 2011)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> your article accused Paul Foot being a barefaced liar, and you're alluding to the same with Bamberry. They are not here to defend themselves, and I am not capable.


i am glad you finally recognise reality


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## TremulousTetra (Nov 15, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> I disagree that coalition would have made a difference. In fact given the nature of most coalitions we cannot be sure that a KPD-SPD coalition wouldn't have hastened fascism, given the nature of the political opposition and their links to the apparatus of state power.
> 
> As for Hitler, I agree that Hitler himself wasn't inevitable, but a fascist or near-fascist dictatorship? That was almost inevitable for Germany. What wasn't inevitable was what came with the dictatorship.


one of the points of the united front is support the reformist party like the rope supports the hanged man. So any working in coalition KPD-SPD, would be done so on a class basis. Not supporting assaults upon the working class, but supporting any interest of the working class, such as putting a brake upon the advancement of fascist to power. What for? Well one is a defensive action, acting as a brake upon fascism, but there is also an offensive reason.


ViolentPanda said:


> Only partially-accurate. Another part of the attractiveness was rearmament and everything (incl. militarisation) that went with it.


 you absolutely right about the attractiveness of rearmament, not only for short-term profits, but also breaking into the much envied resources of the empires, from which Germany due to its lateness was a "landlocked" from. BUT are you arguing these long-term aims had primacy over their fear of the working class? I would argue the prime concern for the ruling class when they GAVE Hitler power, was the threat of the working class. Why? The potential WAS there.



ViolentPanda said:


> It's not black and white. We know that the Brownshirts were an agglomeration of people from different classes who stepped onto the Nazi traain at different times. There were a hard-core of former enlisted men who'd come to the NSDAP through the Freikorps movement, plus a significant "spine" of junior and middle-rank officers. There were those (mostly early recruits) who actually believed that Hitler would deliver socialism, there were the mostly rural peasant class of what we might call "yeoman" rank, who owned their own land and believed Hitler on the subject of land reform as well as lebensraum.
> Although you can eventually grade all this in terms of class membership, you need to bear in mind that Hitler preached to different audiences at different times, and delivered different sermons. The SA had a cross-class membership at least partly because of this.
> BTW, didn't suggest that the SPD weren't "prone to street-fighting", both Joe and I said that the SPD hierarchy forbade their members participation in street-fighting (perish the thought that they engage is "squaddism", eh?  ).


land reform, socialism, and anticapitalism were major parts of the Bolsheviks message, and were/should have been major parts of the KPD offensive to attract those underlined above from the fascist's. But more than just good slogans was needed to attract these people. Why was Goebbels writing in his diary, the cadre is leaving en masse to join the KPD? Why were they leaving? Because the Nazis did not look like at that moment like they could deliver on their promises. How much more realistic alternative would revolutionary politics of the Bolshevik/KPD if at this moment it was making major inroads into gaining support from the reformist working class members of the SDP? By working with the SDP members of the working class, attracting those with a reformist consciousness to a revolutionary consciousness. Unfortunately the working class is imbued with the muck of ages. It demands leadership. The trick is to provide that leadership/poll of attraction, whilst constantly pushing power down to the rank-and-file. Bolshevik rather than the Stalinist strategy, could have made the KPD look like a much more viable alternative.



ViolentPanda said:


> The historic and social currents in the middle and upper classes - guiding the hands of those with power and influence - made some form of right-wing dictatorship nigh on inevitable in Germany, regardless of physical and/or political resistance from the left.


 and all the historic and social currents in Russia made some kind of revolution in Russia inevitable? No!, Historians point of view I think you're probably right  VP, but not from the revolutionaries in my humble opinion.

PS. I acknowledge again your greater knowledge than mine on this topic, but I find the arguments of other people at least equally knowledgeable on this topic more convincing.


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## TremulousTetra (Nov 15, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> i am glad you finally recognise reality


nothing finally about it, I've always been aware of the severity of my intellectual limitations. 

By arguing with people from the SWP in the way I do on here, I learned a lot. Arguing with you, I've learned nothing. Except of course, the SWP works on behalf of the state.  http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/conspiraloons-in-the-ascendancy.233071/


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## Pickman's model (Nov 15, 2011)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> nothing finally about it, I've always been aware of the severity of my intellectual limitations.


yes, you're a man with much to be modest about





> By arguing with people from the SWP in the way I do on here, I learned a lot. Arguing with you, I've learned nothing. Except of course, the SWP works on behalf of the state.  http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/conspiraloons-in-the-ascendancy.233071/


 there isn't even a post of mine on that page


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 16, 2011)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> once you let the genie out of the bottle, or more importantly into government, there is no saying where it will end.



Which is an excellent argument in support of dictatorship, proscription etc., but not an argument anyone who didn't value political freedom would usually make.



> Could a BNP once elected democratically, turn an elected governance into dictatorship? To the majority of his audiences Hitler always concealed such intentions. But let's accept your argument.



Any elected government has the power to do so.

Hitler, by the way, didn't conceal his intentions at all. After the publication of _Mein Kampf_ everything was there, out in the open for people to see half a decade before he seized power.



> More importantly, what is the result of all your study, for revolutionaries? Whilst I accept it may possibly be a very accurate historical record you hold in your head, what are the lessons for people such as you and I today, if we WERE a fascist party growing towards office? What tactics should we use?



1) Create an appealing narrative.
2) Neutralise your rivals - give their members a reason to join you.
3) Make sure your programme appeals to the powerful.

Neither the BNP or any other post-war manifestation of the hard right in Britain has managed any of those.


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 16, 2011)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> one of the points of the united front is support the reformist party like the rope supports the hanged man.



Try thinking, rather than reciting the words of others.



> So any working in coalition KPD-SPD, would be done so on a class basis. Not supporting assaults upon the working class, but supporting any interest of the working class, such as putting a brake upon the advancement of fascist to power. What for? Well one is a defensive action, acting as a brake upon fascism, but there is also an offensive reason.



To destroy your partner in the united front from within, and all the while dealing with the opposition too? What kind of fantasy world do you live in?



> you absolutely right about the attractiveness of rearmament, not only for short-term profits, but also breaking into the much envied resources of the empires, from which Germany due to its lateness was a "landlocked" from. BUT are you arguing these long-term aims had primacy over their fear of the working class? I would argue the prime concern for the ruling class when they GAVE Hitler power, was the threat of the working class. Why? The potential WAS there.



Germany wasn't and isn't "landlocked". It had no overseas empire prior to the late 19th century because it didn't exist as a unitary nation-state until the middle of the 19th century.
The German ruling classes didn't give Hitler power, they were outmanouvered by him into ceding (after a lot of argument) a position to him from which he was able to enact a dictatorship. The ruling classes thought that they had manouvered Hitler into a position where he'd act as a puppet Chancellor for them.
As for "fear of the working class", by 1933 the ruling classes of Germany had already seen the SPD take their line for over a decade. They may have feared the Communists, but they didn't fer the working class _per se_. They knew that they could get *some* turkeys to vote for Christmas.



> land reform, socialism, and anticapitalism were major parts of the Bolsheviks message, and were/should have been major parts of the KPD offensive to attract those underlined above from the fascist's. But more than just good slogans was needed to attract these people. Why was Goebbels writing in his diary, the cadre is leaving en masse to join the KPD? Why were they leaving? Because the Nazis did not look like at that moment like they could deliver on their promises.



Why do I have to keep repeating myself? Hitler wanted shot of the more socialistically-inclined elements of the Nazi mass movement. What Goebbels wrote about should be read in that context.



> How much more realistic alternative would revolutionary politics of the Bolshevik/KPD if at this moment it was making major inroads into gaining support from the reformist working class members of the SDP? By working with the SDP members of the working class, attracting those with a reformist consciousness to a revolutionary consciousness. Unfortunately the working class is imbued with the muck of ages. It demands leadership. The trick is to provide that leadership/poll of attraction, whilst constantly pushing power down to the rank-and-file. Bolshevik rather than the Stalinist strategy, could have made the KPD look like a much more viable alternative.



Put down your copy of Harman and at least try to stop reciting your partisan twaddle.We're not discussing theoretical poncifications, we're talking about the real world.



> and all the historic and social currents in Russia made some kind of revolution in Russia inevitable? No!



Inevitable enough that 1917 (pt 2) wasn't the first time.



> Historians point of view I think you're probably right VP, but not from the revolutionaries in my humble opinion.



Is that "revolutionaries" as in the people out on the streets, fighting to make a better world, or "revolutionaries" as in "brain-workers", leading the proletariat from the safety of the rear?



> PS. I acknowledge again your greater knowledge than mine on this topic, but I find the arguments of other people at least equally knowledgeable on this topic more convincing.



Of course, especially those with whose politics you have some fellow-feeling.


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## TremulousTetra (Nov 16, 2011)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> More importantly, what is the result of all your study, for revolutionaries? Whilst I accept it may possibly be a very accurate historical record you hold in your head, what are the lessons for people such as you and I today, if there WERE a fascist party growing towards office? What tactics should we use?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



what are the lessons for people such as you and I today, if there WERE a fascist party growing towards office? What tactics should we [anti-fascists] use?

PS sos about typo.


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## TremulousTetra (Nov 16, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Try thinking, rather than reciting the words of others.
> 
> To destroy your partner in the united front from within, and all the while dealing with the opposition too? What kind of fantasy world do you live in?
> 
> ...


My/their aims [Communism/Anarchism] were/are exactly the same as yours.

Historians of many flavours have interpreted the 'real' world, the point for me is to change it. What attracts me to SW's partisan twaddle, is their vivid explanation of the problem and the solution. Their vivid explanation of where we are, and how we get to something different.  So let's just agree to disagree where we do, and illuminate where we can.

From your point of view, your historical analysis, what would you say are the lessons for antifascist? What tactic should that employ, if there were fascist party threatening to gain the means to destroy the 'democracy', limited as it may be, of a capitalist society?


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## TremulousTetra (Nov 16, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Germany wasn't and isn't "landlocked". It had no overseas empire prior to the late 19th century because it didn't exist as a unitary nation-state until the middle of the 19th century.


Yep.


> The ruling classes thought that they had manouvered Hitler into a position where he'd act as a puppet Chancellor for them.


Yup. But those who control the means of production, control society.


> As for "fear of the working class", by 1933 the ruling classes of Germany had already seen the SPD take their line for over a decade. They may have feared the Communists, but they didn't fer the working class _per se_.


Yup, they would the have feared a Communist working class?



> Why do I have to keep repeating myself? Hitler wanted shot of the more socialistically-inclined elements of the Nazi mass movement. What Goebbels wrote about should be read in that context.


it's a numbers game.

This time we disagree, and that's fine. I just want to be absolutely clear, you are saying there is absolutely nothing the KPD could have done better? For somebody like me who wants to look at history as a guide for action today, there were no mistakes we should not repeat?


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## malatesta32 (Nov 16, 2011)

right up to bed and no supper you 2! i am SICK of the pair etc etc ... (plans stopping pocket money, banning comics etc).


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## TremulousTetra (Nov 17, 2011)

malatesta32 said:


> right up to bed and no supper you 2! i am SICK of the pair etc etc ... (plans stopping pocket money, banning comics etc).


awww, but mum, we're only playing.

anyway, just getting to the juicy bit, what are the lessons of his research. Seriously, no intention of arguing the point, just interested in what the lessons are for antifascist and revolutionaries.


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## TremulousTetra (Nov 17, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Try thinking, rather than reciting the words of others.
> 
> Put down your copy of Harman and at least try to stop reciting your partisan twaddle.We're not discussing theoretical poncifications, we're talking about the real world.
> 
> Of course, especially those with whose politics you have some fellow-feeling.


actual, i appologise. shunt av put swpov, ypov more interesting. hope u'll answer.


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 17, 2011)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> Yep.
> Yup. But those who control the means of production, control society.



Only insofar as they have a layer of political insulation between themselves and "the masses".



> Yup, they would the have feared a Communist working class?



Well, there's the rub. After about 1920 the ruling classes were comfortable in the knowledge that the SPD would always side with the establishment, so that even the height of Communist popularity wasn't enough to do more than give an excuse for greater repression. They didn't *need* to fear a Communist working class because they were well aware that the like of the SPD and the Catholic parties would always strive to persuade *their* working class memberships (usually successfully) away from revolution toward reformism.



> it's a numbers game.



Of course it's a numbers game, but it was also a public relations game. Goebbels was concerned chiefly about how the loss of a couple of thousand members to the Communists would *look*, both to other cadres, and to the NSDAP's backers. Hitler, however, took a strategic view - that allowing the party to purge *itself *reflected well on the party, removed future elements of dissent and gave clear markers as to who could or could not be viewed as politically-sound.



> This time we disagree, and that's fine. I just want to be absolutely clear, you are saying there is absolutely nothing the KPD could have done better? For somebody like me who wants to look at history as a guide for action today, there were no mistakes we should not repeat?



I'm saying that the KPD in isolation could have done no better, that both sides would have needed to concede on certain issues in order for a united front to have even been discussed, especially after what happened in Prussia in 1932.


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 17, 2011)

malatesta32 said:


> right up to bed and no supper you 2! i am SICK of the pair etc etc ... (plans stopping pocket money, banning comics etc).



I HATE you!!! I never asked to be born anyway!!!


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## Joe Reilly (Nov 17, 2011)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> But one in particular; from your article. "Central to this inertia is that notion that fascism was an ‘inexplicable aberration’, and could, had tactics differed a fraction, been entirely avoided, Hitler could have been stopped by entirely legal and, most importantly, non-violent methods. By constitutional means, by democratic elections, by, in a word -pacifism." I have never seen the SWP anywhere promote pacifism. Certainly not in fighting the fascist. What they do draw a distinction between, is using violence against the fascists by a minority on behalf of the working class, and the mass violence against the fascists by the working-class. Whilst violence is not the only string to the SW bow in fighting the fascist, they oppose the former whilst promoting the latter when tactically expedient/possible. For you cannot promote violence against the fascist by a mass of the working-class, if such mass unity does not exist.



What constitutes mass violence?


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## TremulousTetra (Nov 17, 2011)

Joe Reilly said:


> What constitutes mass violence?


ie cable street.


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## butchersapron (Nov 17, 2011)

Less than 50% of the working class.


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## butchersapron (Nov 17, 2011)

Clearly,  you mean violence that you already support regardless of size of participants.


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## Joe Reilly (Nov 17, 2011)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> ie cable street.



Any other event qualify?


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## TremulousTetra (Nov 18, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Amazing,i talk about the SPD and he talks about the SWP. Ok, you must then think the SWP are the modern day equivalent of the SPD then or your analogy doesn't work. How many members do you have? How many regions do you run? How many police forces? How many guns?



"Amazing,i talk about the SPD and he talks about the SWP." who ya talking to butch, your followers? ROFL Your getting a bit Scargilesque. Do you have a comb over, and talk about yourself in the third person down the pub?​


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## Spanky Longhorn (Nov 18, 2011)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> who ya talking to butch, your followers? ROFL​



Those posters like us still sad enough to be reading this thread I would imagine...


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## TremulousTetra (Nov 18, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> I'm saying that the KPD in isolation could have done no better, that both sides would have needed to concede on certain issues in order for a united front to have even been discussed, especially after what happened in Prussia in 1932.


you don't have to, but if you would like to expand on what issues both side would have two have conceded upon, I'd find that interesting.

Also, you say in order for united front to have been discussed.  If both sides had conceded, and agreed upon a united front, do you believe this would have paid any dividends?would a united front of 'squadism' have been most effective? Or concentration on mobilising as many people as possible, every time the Nazis raised their head in public?

most importantly, From your point of view, your historical analysis, what would you say are the lessons for antifascist? What tactic should they employ, if there were fascist party threatening to gain the means to destroy the 'democracy', limited as it may be, of a capitalist society?


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## malatesta32 (Nov 19, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> I HATE you!!! I never asked to be born anyway!!!



i didnt wanto tell you this but you're not really mine! either of you! i found you in a handbag in a cloakroom!


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 19, 2011)

malatesta32 said:


> i didnt wanto tell you this but you're not really mine! either of you! i found you in a handbag in a cloakroom!



*A Haaandbaaaag???!!!*


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## claphamboy (Nov 19, 2011)




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## Joe Reilly (Nov 19, 2011)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> ie cable street.



After a near century of anti-fascist prixis that only one occassion meets the desired paradigm does rather give the game away. To adhere
 to such a philosophy would render effective anti-fascism utterly impotent; the type of 'flabby pacifism' to quote old Leon, that serves as a recruiting
sergeant for the other side. In short the type of anti-fascist opponent that if they didn't exist the fascist (if only in order to blood the troops) might be tempted to invent.


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## malatesta32 (Nov 19, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> From memory, Evelyn Anderson's "Hammer or Anvil - The Story of the German Working Class Movement". Goes into the fact that because the original union strike vote fell just short of the legal trigger point for strike (75%), the strike was unofficial and therefore gave wriggle room for the political opportunism of the Nazis, although (as I said) this wasn't tolerated by all the strikers, and toleration wore progressively thinner as the strike stretched over its' 5 day course.



just got the book and anderson confirms the joint effort and that it pissed off all manner of folks. not seen anything to counter it yet! anyone else any ideas?


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## malatesta32 (Nov 19, 2011)

Joe Reilly said:


> This is yet anothe carefully cultivated Trot myth. There was no 'joint' transport strike. It was communist led - the Nazis, fearful of working class opinion, sent supporters to the picket lines in order to emphasise their socialist as against nationalist credentials.



joe yout got ANY source that confirms this? according to anderson the TU leaders backed out, communists called out workers and were collecting with some nazis (p147).


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## malatesta32 (Nov 19, 2011)

even rosenhaft is a bit vague on it, pointing out that there were 114 each of kpd and nazis arrested but doesnt seem to say that it was for fighting between themselves. (2008, 176). arse.


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## Joe Reilly (Nov 20, 2011)

malatesta32 said:


> even rosenhaft is a bit vague on it, pointing out that there were 114 each of kpd and nazis arrested but doesnt seem to say that it was for fighting between themselves. (2008, 176). arse.



I don't have references for 2000 article to hand, however in my opinion it's not historically important. The transport strike is flagged up by KPD detractors, from both left and right as part of wider attack on physical force anti-fascism in general.

Here the grandly proclaim is the photographic evidence of widespread and routine collusion between the the Stalinists and the Nazis. The underlying liberal message being that at the end of the day, there is will always be a hidden symmetry, between the violent extremes, with one side being hardly any better, or more moral than the other.

But of course the fact that this singular incident has gained such notoriety is proof in itself that there was no such collusion.


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## TremulousTetra (Nov 20, 2011)

Joe Reilly said:


> After a near century of anti-fascist prixis that only one occassion meets the desired paradigm does rather give the game away. To adhere
> to such a philosophy would render effective anti-fascism utterly impotent; the type of 'flabby pacifism' to quote old Leon, that serves as a recruiting
> sergeant for the other side.


LOL good job SW has never taken a pacifist stance then.[or substitutionism ]


> In short the type of anti-fascist opponent that if they didn't exist the fascist (if only in order to blood the troops) might be tempted to invent.


or the state


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## malatesta32 (Nov 21, 2011)

Joe Reilly said:


> I don't have references for 2000 article to hand, however in my opinion it's not historically important. The transport strike is flagged up by KPD detractors, from both left and right as part of wider attack on physical force anti-fascism in general.
> Here the grandly proclaim is the photographic evidence of widespread and routine collusion between the the Stalinists and the Nazis. The underlying liberal message being that at the end of the day, there is will always be a hidden symmetry, between the violent extremes, with one side being hardly any better, or more moral than the other.
> But of course the fact that this singular incident has gained such notoriety is proof in itself that there was no such collusion.



thanks joe. its just that i have come across 3 references and wd like to counter it notably
hammer or anvil which has kpd/nazis 'arm in arm and shouting in agreed rhythm' (1945, p148),
it is a way of discrediting militant antifascist activity and, as i think someone mentioned earlier, exactly the same as SWP did telling of squads drinking in the same pub as the NF in islington. (BtF, 56)
rosenhaft - who is more trustworty - doesnt mention it. odd that.


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## butchersapron (Nov 21, 2011)

_Part_ of the KPD leadership did make a very short lived attempt to appeal to unemployed and working class nazi supporters by aping their method of propaganda. In the case of the transport strike there was no joint work no joint committees nothing beyond the nazis trying to jump on the success (in relative terms) of a mass KPD inspired anti-official union wildcat in order to bolster failing w/c support a few days before the election. It did not mean the period was one of KPD/nazi collaboration, but of sections of mass parties desperately coming up local tactics on the hoof. The wider use of the story today is nailed by joe above.


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## malatesta32 (Nov 21, 2011)

yeah, it seems that the nsdap saw it as a potential recruiting opportunity and to consolidate its 'radical' stance to other workers. thanks loads for clarifying!


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## butchersapron (Apr 7, 2018)

BNP not contesting their final remaining seat in may elections. 

Marsden on Pendle Borough Council btw


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