# Exit impact on Northern Ireland



## ska invita (Jun 25, 2016)

Im really curious about the Northern Ireland / Ireland situation.

To recap NI voted remain (56%) and normally get large sums of money from the EU including for the Peace Programme (Brexit threatens £425 million in EU Peace programme grants to Northern Ireland - BelfastTelegraph.co.uk)

And they have a border with Ireland who are in the EU which would now need patrolling post exit.

Sinn Fein are calling for a referendum for Irish Unity
Sinn Fein calls for Irish unity poll as Brexit fallout begins

Do people think there is any chance of Sinn Fein pulling this re-union off ?

I notice that in that piece it says "McGuinness demanded that London call a referendum on a united Ireland.", suggesting that Westminster would have to authorise a referendum?
Does Stormont not have this power? I forget what happened with the Scottish Indie vote - did Holyrood similarly have to get permission from Westminster?


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## littlebabyjesus (Jun 25, 2016)

Nationalists voted strongly remain. Unionists 50:50. But my guess is that the 50% Unionist remain weren't that passionate in their view. Very few people were _passionately_ remain, tbh. (but I might be wrong about NI)

But as in Scotland, the point can now be made legitimately - we didn't vote to leave, and what argument against a referendum could Unionists have?

Be interesting to hear from NI posters. Was this a big thing there?


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## ska invita (Jun 25, 2016)

The financial implications, now exit is a reality, might change things - i can well believe that there wasnt much passion in the vote, but it might well all look very different today


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## littlebabyjesus (Jun 25, 2016)

Shame revol is not here.


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## littlebabyjesus (Jun 25, 2016)

Odd position, tactically, for nationalists (very different stripes, obv) in NI and Scotland. They've got their ideal result - _we voted in, England voted out_. That was the only place from which they could demand referendums, no?


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## ska invita (Jun 25, 2016)

Really interesting piece...
The English have placed a bomb under the Irish peace process | Fintan O’Toole

little extract:

"I never imagined then that I would ever feel bitter about England again. But I do feel bitter now, because England has done a very bad day’s work for Ireland. It is dragging Irish history along in its triumphal wake, like tin cans tied to a wedding car.

All but a few diehards had learned to live with the partition of the island of Ireland. Why? Because the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic had become so soft as to be barely noticeable. If you crossed it, you had to change currencies, and if you were driving you had to remember that the speed limits were changing from kilometres per hour to miles. But these are just banal details. They do not impinge on the simple, ordinary experience of people sharing an island without having to be deeply conscious of division.





A ‘money exchanged’ sign at the border between Newry in Northern Ireland and Dundalk in the Republic of Ireland. Photograph: Paul Faith/AFP/Getty Images
What will now happen is not that the old border will come back. It’s much worse than that. The old border marked the line between neighbouring polities that had a common travel area and an intimate, if often fraught, relationship. It was a customs barrier. The new border will be the most westerly land frontier of a vast entity of more than 400 million people, and it will be an immigration (as well as a customs) barrier.

ALSO

Meanwhile, the cornerstone of the peace settlement, the Belfast agreement of 1998, is being undermined. One of the key provisions of the agreement is that anyone born in Northern Ireland has the right to be a citizen of the UK or Ireland or both. What does that mean in the new dispensation? Can someone be both an EU citizen and not an EU citizen? Likewise, the agreement underpins human rights through the “complete incorporation into Northern Ireland law of the European Convention on Human Rights”.

----

Makes a more general point that the campaigns gave no shits about the consequences of this for Ireland - it was all about England, England, England...
I have to agree: I dont think much thought was given to any aspects of the UK union, nor to negative impact to other europeans, from all sides


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 25, 2016)

Unless Ireland joins Schengen there really shouldn't be any need for a manned border.


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## ska invita (Jun 25, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Unless Ireland joins Schengen there really shouldn't be any need for a manned border.


Why so? Is there not free inter EU movement to Ireland as it stands? Couldn't someone from France say, just turn up and settle indefinitely?

There is also the possibility that the UK will join Schengen (or similarly sign up to free movement within the EU )!


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## brogdale (Jun 25, 2016)

Strange times....


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## crossthebreeze (Jun 25, 2016)

ska invita said:


> Why so? Is there not free inter EU movement to Ireland as it stands? Couldn't someone from France say, just turn up and settle indefinitely?
> 
> There is also the possibility that the UK will join Schengen (or similarly sign up to free movement within the EU )!


I think its shit that the implications for Ireland were never explained/investigated by either campaign.  I suspect they won't reinstate the border (and will just renegotiate some of the details of agreements between the UK and Ireland (the Common Travel Area is a separate agreement not part of EU membership) to iron out inconsistencies.  Lots of people have various combinations of dual citizenship so I can't see NI-born people who want dual citizenship having any problems (though it will probably be advantageous to have dual rather than single citizenship), and I can't see how any mainstream politician would think it remotely desirable to stop NI born people having Irish citizenship or reduce Irish citizen's rights within the UK, unless they really want to stir up problems.
The ECHR is part of the Council of Europe not the EU.  The Tories were already threatening to abolish the human rights act even within the EU, but apparently they wouldn't have to leave COE/ECHR even if they did that (though it would be easier for them leave the COE/ECHR if they've left the EU).


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## crossthebreeze (Jun 25, 2016)

A handy diagram from wikipedia showing international agreements - its a complicated situation, not just the EU.
Edit: From here (where it has clickable links)


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 25, 2016)

ska invita said:


> Why so? Is there not free inter EU movement to Ireland as it stands? Couldn't someone from France say, just turn up and settle indefinitely?
> 
> There is also the possibility that the UK will join Schengen (or similarly sign up to free movement within the EU )!



Schengen is movement between countries with no passport controls. Ireland is not in Schengen, passports must be shown to enter Ireland from France. A post EU UK would be happy to allow free movement from Ireland to the UK, the sole difference maybe that French people might not be able to settle in the UK. But that is residency and not visiting, so no need for a border between Ireland and the U.K.


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## mauvais (Jun 25, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Schengen is movement between countries with no passport controls. Ireland is not in Schengen, passports must be shown to enter Ireland from France. A post EU UK would be happy to allow free movement from Ireland to the UK, the sole difference maybe that French people might not be able to settle in the UK. But that is residency and not visiting, so no need for a border between Ireland and the U.K.


Ireland currently enforces its borders on terms common to the UK. If you're French and Ireland's let you in, then what does the UK care, because the UK would let French people in after a similar check anyway. Not so post-EU, unless free movement persists.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 25, 2016)

mauvais said:


> Ireland currently enforces its borders on terms common to the UK. If you're French and Ireland's let you in, then what does the UK care, because the UK would let French people in after a similar check anyway. Not so post-EU, unless free movement persists.



Pretty sure free movement will continue. Those who voted out to stop that will be disappointed. Good.


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## brogdale (Jun 25, 2016)

Supply problem for those demanding cake & eating it....


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## Idris2002 (Jun 25, 2016)

ska invita said:


> Really interesting piece...
> The English have placed a bomb under the Irish peace process | Fintan O’Toole
> 
> little extract:
> ...


The ECHR isn't an EU document, and UK leaving the EU would make no difference to it. I'm surprised (well not really) that Fintan doesn't seem to know that.


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## Poi E (Jun 25, 2016)

Yeah, but it will be on the hit list. It's pretty much Tory policy.


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## Casually Red (Jul 3, 2016)

ska invita said:


> Really interesting piece...
> The English have placed a bomb under the Irish peace process | Fintan O’Toole
> 
> little extract:
> ...



Seriously though..fuck him. Why on earth should a single mum on a zero hour contract in Hull give 2 shits about some utterly , laughably dysfunctional parliament outside of Belfast . And the shower of utterly useless bastards sitting on the gravy train in it ?  Coining it in while doing fuck all .
If he was worried about the political impact of partition in Ireland he should have spent some effort in his useless life opposing it. Instead he's made a long and lucrative living demonising everyone who ever tried to get rid of it. Been a supporter of it . Attacking all and sundry those who opposed it..Including certain ballad groups . Now he's worried people will notice partition is actually a fact of life. 
The mans a notorious lick spittle . And a gobshite . He's worried brexit will negatively impact on the cosy status quo for various Irish elites. And that..horror of horrors..Calais might end up outside Dundalk. It's a self pitying whinge .

Honestly not having a go at you but OTooles background is notorious .


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## Pickman's model (Jul 3, 2016)

Idris2002 said:


> The ECHR isn't an EU document, and UK leaving the EU would make no difference to it. I'm surprised (well not really) that Fintan doesn't seem to know that.


Also I thought the most westerly land border of the EU was around French Guyana


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## Casually Red (Jul 3, 2016)

crossthebreeze said:


> I think its shit that the implications for Ireland were never explained/investigated by either campaign.  I suspect they won't reinstate the border (and will just renegotiate some of the details of agreements between the UK and Ireland (the Common Travel Area is a separate agreement not part of EU membership) to iron out inconsistencies.  Lots of people have various combinations of dual citizenship so I can't see NI-born people who want dual citizenship having any problems (though it will probably be advantageous to have dual rather than single citizenship), and I can't see how any mainstream politician would think it remotely desirable to stop NI born people having Irish citizenship or reduce Irish citizen's rights within the UK, unless they really want to stir up problems.
> The ECHR is part of the Council of Europe not the EU.  The Tories were already threatening to abolish the human rights act even within the EU, but apparently they wouldn't have to leave COE/ECHR even if they did that (though it would be easier for them leave the COE/ECHR if they've left the EU).



Yeah but all migrants have to do is get the bus or train from Dundalk to Newry ..10 miles...or even a taxi to Crossmaglen ..5 miles..and theyre in the UK . It's not about Irish people. It's about non Irish people entering the UK using the Irish border as an uncontrolled and unchecked entry point . Which it will be unless border controls return .
If Brexit is about immigration then without a doubt the UK government isn't going to sit there and permit a gaping big land frontier with the EU to sit wholly unguarded and unmonitored for anyone within the EU to cross whenever they feel like . Just can't see that happening .

There's also the possibility that as some sort of punitive measure the EU could tell the free staters to institute border controls on what will also be the EUs land frontier. The southerners have an unerring habit of rolling over for whichever masters crack the whip . They'll do it if told .


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## Idris2002 (Jul 3, 2016)

Casually Red said:


> Yeah but all migrants have to do is get the bus or train from Dundalk to Newry ..10 miles...or even a taxi to Crossmaglen ..5 miles..and theyre in the UK . It's not about Irish people. It's about non Irish people entering the UK using the Irish border as an uncontrolled and unchecked entry point . Which it will be unless border controls return .
> If Brexit is about immigration then without a doubt the UK government isn't going to sit there and permit a gaping big land frontier with the EU to sit wholly unguarded and unmonitored for anyone within the EU to cross whenever they feel like . Just can't see that happening .
> 
> There's also the possibility that as some sort of punitive measure the EU could tell the free staters to institute border controls on what will also be the EUs land frontier. The southerners have an unerring habit of rolling over for whichever masters crack the whip . They'll do it if told .


Yeah, well, there was a period when ever I went from Belfast to Dublin I would be challenged by the immigration police at Dundalk. I'm not even that dark, FFS.


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## ska invita (Jul 3, 2016)

Casually Red said:


> Seriously though..fuck him. Why on earth should a single mum on a zero hour contract in Hull give 2 shits about some utterly , laughably dysfunctional parliament outside of Belfast . And the shower of utterly useless bastards sitting on the gravy train in it ?  Coining it in while doing fuck all .
> If he was worried about the political impact of partition in Ireland he should have spent some effort in his useless life opposing it. Instead he's made a long and lucrative living demonising everyone who ever tried to get rid of it. Been a supporter of it . Attacking all and sundry those who opposed it..Including certain ballad groups . Now he's worried people will notice partition is actually a fact of life.
> The mans a notorious lick spittle . And a gobshite . He's worried brexit will negatively impact on the cosy status quo for various Irish elites. And that..horror of horrors..Calais might end up outside Dundalk. It's a self pitying whinge .
> 
> Honestly not having a go at you but OTooles background is notorious .


Okay never heard of him... Though its not about a woman from hull it's the fact that the London campaigners didn't mention Ireland at all.... And it doesn't look like anyone even drew up plans for what might happen in event of exit.


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## Casually Red (Jul 3, 2016)

ska invita said:


> Im really curious about the Northern Ireland / Ireland situation.
> 
> To recap NI voted remain (56%) and normally get large sums of money from the EU including for the Peace Programme (Brexit threatens £425 million in EU Peace programme grants to Northern Ireland - BelfastTelegraph.co.uk)
> 
> ...



Stormont have no power in that and many other regards. It's solely up to the British secretary of state...who can also collapse stormont itself in a heartbeat and exclude parties . As was done some years back .

McGuinness is just making noise . He knows full well that there won't be a referendum . He also knows that if there was one he'd lose . Thanks to the inbuilt sectarian gerrymander which is the 6 counties itself . Political smoke and mirrors in order to be seen " doing something " in the face of being confronted with major political failure . If a hard border returns him and his ilk will be in major hot water . it's why OToole is having a hissy fit too .

If brexit was the key to unification you'd think he'd have been campaigning for it instead of against .

If Scotland does vote to leave the union I reckon the English should take that golden opportunity to cut the 6 counties loose. Just tell them to fuck off . It'd be a seriously popular suggestion I reckon . In England at least .


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## Pickman's model (Jul 3, 2016)

Casually Red said:


> Stormont have no power in that and many other regards. It's solely up to the British secretary of state...who can also collapse stormont itself in a heartbeat and exclude parties . As was done some years back .
> 
> McGuinness is just making noise . He knows full well that there won't be a referendum . He also knows that if there was one he'd lose . Thanks to the inbuilt sectarian gerrymander which is the 6 counties itself . Political smoke and mirrors in order to be seen " doing something " in the face of being confronted with major political failure . If a hard border returns him and his ilk will be in major hot water . it's why OToole is having a hissy fit too .
> 
> ...


Tbh I wouldn't be surprised if this did lead to a 32 county republic


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## Casually Red (Jul 3, 2016)

ska invita said:


> Okay never heard of him... Though its not about a woman from hull it's the fact that the London campaigners didn't mention Ireland at all.... And it doesn't look like anyone even drew up plans for what might happen in event of exit.



I honestly don't blame them . They've problems enough of their own . 
Just in case we all sound like pathetic lickspittles I've got to say I heartily agree with every word of this .

A 'shackled' Paddy who rolls over is unfit to mock Brexit - Independent.ie


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## Casually Red (Jul 3, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Tbh I wouldn't be surprised if this did lead to a 32 county republic



Oh yeah..there's definitely that potential , one of the major reasons I supported brexit. But it wont be via the good Friday route as McGuinness is waffling about. It'll be a lot more chaotic than that . One thing otoole is right about it is it puts various constitutional arrangements on v shaky ground . It's why he's panicking . The apple cart could be upset .


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## Casually Red (Jul 3, 2016)

Idris2002 said:


> Yeah, well, there was a period when ever I went from Belfast to Dublin I would be challenged by the immigration police at Dundalk. I'm not even that dark, FFS.



Pre Nice treaty, and the EU ..and their Irish sock puppets...refusing to accept the outcome of the Irish referendum . Again.


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## Casually Red (Jul 3, 2016)

ska invita said:


> Im really curious about the Northern Ireland / Ireland situation.
> 
> To recap NI voted remain (56%) and normally get large sums of money from the EU including for the Peace Programme (Brexit threatens £425 million in EU Peace programme grants to Northern Ireland - BelfastTelegraph.co.uk)
> 
> ...



This piece answers you much better than I could have . Villiers casually swatted them aside like a fly, instantly. And there's nothing they can do about it . Absolutely nothing.

Northern Ireland secretary rejects Sinn Féin call for border poll

And they're currently bricking it


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## Idris2002 (Jul 3, 2016)

Reuters story:

Brexit vote makes united Ireland suddenly thinkable

I still think it would take a firm separation of Scotland from UK, and the latter's de facto collapse for unity to occur. But at this point I would not like to predict anything.


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Jul 3, 2016)

(Deleted post)


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## Ax^ (Jul 3, 2016)

Casually Red said:


> Stormont have no power in that and many other regards. It's solely up to the British secretary of state...who can also collapse stormont itself in a heartbeat and exclude parties . As was done some years back .
> 
> McGuinness is just making noise . He knows full well that there won't be a referendum . He also knows that if there was one he'd lose . Thanks to the inbuilt sectarian gerrymander which is the 6 counties itself . Political smoke and mirrors in order to be seen " doing something " in the face of being confronted with major political failure . If a hard border returns him and his ilk will be in major hot water . it's why OToole is having a hissy fit too .
> 
> ...



it would be only fitting to have jelly and ice cream for the break up of the Union


if the 6 counties are set adrift


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## Casually Red (Jul 3, 2016)

I'll buy


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## Casually Red (Jul 4, 2016)

Some analysis here, pretty much backing up what I was saying earlier . Although the establishment nationalists conspiracy allegations as regards the surprising number of out votes in some nationalist wards should be taken with a large grain of salt . Republicans and socialists had plenty of valid reasons for an anti eu vote . As its been a republican position since the early 70s , and similar in ways to the reasons tony Benn opposed it . Some politicians would prefer not to remind people of that .

Dissident Republicans in Northern Ireland seize moment to fight partition

Northern Ireland unionists and republicans among Brexit backers


And the full spectrum responses of various outfits, ranging from the pro GFA and pro EU shinners and SDLP to the anti eu and anti GFA groups - 32 CSM, RSF, Eirigi, 1916 socs .

Eta its notable these latter groups often mention and congratulate the British working class on their vote , and highlight it's anti establishment, anti capitalist significance .

Brexit - The view in Ireland


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## wheelie_bin (Jul 4, 2016)

Can anyone please point me to an article or speech by someone stating that the UK wants to put a formal border post in between NI and Ireland? I watched the NI debate on BBC and every person on the leave side explicitly stated they saw no need for a border. So I've see lots of people worrying that there will be a new border, but I haven't yet seen anybody who has said that they would support having such a border.


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## Casually Red (Jul 5, 2016)

wheelie_bin said:


> Can anyone please point me to an article or speech by someone stating that the UK wants to put a formal border post in between NI and Ireland? I watched the NI debate on BBC and every person on the leave side explicitly stated they saw no need for a border. So I've see lots of people worrying that there will be a new border, but I haven't yet seen anybody who has said that they would support having such a border.



NOBODY wants to do it. The fact is they'll HAVE to . Osborne , Blair..they've all said it will have to happen if the Uk votes leave . The leave side were lying about this not happening . The remain side were telling the truth . It's inconceivable there won't be a formal " hard " border on the land frontier with the eu . Impossible . Unless Britain decides to leave its eu borders completely open . Which would be madness .

But it's a mistake to believe there's no border...there most certainly is . Partition is very real . Politically real . The difference will be partition will be a lot more evident visually , a lot more of an irritant to people's daily lives . That in turn will galvanise a demand that partition itself  be addressed . The entire political status quo that's been built upon maintaining partition by making it more user friendly will come under serious political pressure . Those who uphold partition and co operate with it will face a lot more opposition and resentment . And the acceptance of partition by the nationalists comes under threat. It'll be a lot harder to convince people to have meaningless " aspirations " for unity . It'll focus them into a concrete demand .


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## mauvais (Jul 5, 2016)

I'm assuming the above is contingent on 'leave' meaning more than freedom of movement continuing on an in-EU basis - i.e. you don't believe a border will be put in place if it's business as usual in that sense?


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 6, 2016)

There is a hard border between Schengen and Ireland, as long as that remains why would there need to be one between Ireland and NI?


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## Combustible (Jul 6, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> There is a hard border between Schengen and Ireland, as long as that remains why would there need to be one between Ireland and NI?



Because EU citizens are free to enter Ireland, so if there are restrictions on non-British EU citizens entering the UK, they could bypass this by going through NI. But there are other options open to the government, e.g. they could not restrict entry to the UK but require non-UK citizens to have work permits to legally work.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 6, 2016)

Combustible said:


> Because EU citizens are free to enter Ireland, so if there are restrictions on non-British EU citizens entering the UK, they could bypass this by going through NI. But there are other options open to the government, e.g. they could not restrict entry to the UK but require non-UK citizens to have work permits to legally work.



Free movement of people will remain, without it there will be no single market access and the U.K. can say goodbye to its economy. It is likely that you can only come for work if you have a firm job offer, that'll be about it. 


Entering Ireland from Schengen will still require passports to be shown as now, the same as entering the UK will, no extra restrictions will be in place or else those same restrictions would be reciprocated and no one wants that.


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## Combustible (Jul 6, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Free movement of people will remain, without it there will be no single market access and the U.K. can say goodbye to its economy. It is likely that you can only come for work if you have a firm job offer, that'll be about it.


 Well at least from what the EU are currently saying, restricting coming for work to those with a firm job offer would also mean no single market access, whether they budge on that remains to be seen.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 6, 2016)

Combustible said:


> Well at least from what the EU are currently saying, restricting coming for work to those with a firm job offer would also mean no single market access, whether they budge on that remains to be seen.



Formal negotiations haven't started and won't until Article 50 is triggered, so positioning now has to take place to enable there to be something to negotiate. In all probability very little will be gained by the UK leaving the EU in terms of our relationship with it. Hopefully, and as we have already seen, Brexit may force the EU to not be such a bunch of shitheads. We'll see...


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## Idris2002 (Jul 6, 2016)

Whatever happens it will be "divorce with bed rights".


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## brogdale (Sep 24, 2016)

(Potentially) interesting development:-

Northern Ireland has mounted a legal challenge to stop Brexit



> _One of Northern Ireland’s most senior legal figure will be involved in a legal bid to stop the UK from leaving the European Union.
> 
> The case is being described as “the most important constitutional legal case in recent history” and will feature Attorney General John Larkin QC, the Belfast Telegraph reported.
> 
> To ensure Mr Larkin’s, participation a formal notice of devolution has been served. _


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## Casually Red (Sep 24, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Free movement of people will remain, without it there will be no single market access and the U.K. can say goodbye to its economy. It is likely that you can only come for work if you have a firm job offer, that'll be about it.
> 
> 
> Entering Ireland from Schengen will still require passports to be shown as now, the same as entering the UK will, no extra restrictions will be in place or else those same restrictions would be reciprocated and no one wants that.



It won't so much be about people, it'll be about trade and movement of goods. Tariffs etc. they'll need customs posts on the border for that . Customs posts will immediately be blown up, thereby requiring a major security presence. Which in turn will not merely be deeply resented by the border populace but also itself  be targeted . And so it goes with its own inexorable logic.

They're crapping themselves about that , all of them . Really bricking it .


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## brogdale (Oct 9, 2016)

_"We're going to take back control of our borders"...._except the one dividing the RoI & NI. 

Going to use the CTA as a 'fudge', and this looks very fudgy indeed:-



> _The joint Anglo-Irish border procedures will not be able to stem the arrival of EU nationals, as they will retain the right to free movement to live and work in the Irish Republic. However, this point is seen as moot: officials believe few EU citizens will want to come and work illegally in the UK after Brexit. “The numbers would be very small,” said one diplomatic source familiar with Brexit discussions._


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## brogdale (Oct 16, 2016)

Bang on time...

Martin McGuinness calls for special EU status for Northern Ireland


> _Northern Ireland should push the EU to grant it special associate or even membership status to avoid the “devastating” consequences of Brexit for Irish people, Martin McGuinness has said.
> 
> The deputy first minister and Sinn Féin leader told the Guardian that leaders in Belfast and Dublin needed to work together to make the case for special rules to apply to Northern Ireland. The province voted 56:44 in favour of staying in the EU in June’s referendum, but will be forced to pull out when Britain does._


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## brogdale (Jan 17, 2017)

So...out of the customs union = hard border with RoI.
So no problems there, then?


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## ska invita (Jan 17, 2017)

...might the forced coming election have an impact on this?  Elections to be held in Northern Ireland on 2 March - BBC News


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## brogdale (Jan 17, 2017)

ska invita said:


> ...might the forced coming election have an impact on this?  Elections to be held in Northern Ireland on 2 March - BBC News


I don't know enough of NI politics to say, but i'd be surprised if SF didn't try to exploit this huge, live issue that will top the news agenda throughout the campaign & elections.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 17, 2017)

Can't we use this juncture to give NI back to the Irish? The only people who'd give a fuck are the loony-loyalists, do we really want them? Let them become Dublin's problem...


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## Artaxerxes (Jan 17, 2017)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Can't we use this juncture to give NI back to the Irish? The only people who'd give a fuck are the loony-loyalists, do we really want them? Let them become Dublin's problem...



Dublin doesn't want them either.


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## Pickman's model (Jan 17, 2017)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Can't we use this juncture to give NI back to the Irish? The only people who'd give a fuck are the loony-loyalists, do we really want them? Let them become Dublin's problem...


give them a new island to colonise


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 17, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> give them a new island to colonise
> 
> View attachment 98907





((((PENGUINS))))


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## Pickman's model (Jan 17, 2017)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> ((((PENGUINS))))


the penguins will be decanted to a safe location


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## gosub (Jan 17, 2017)

brogdale said:


> So...out of the customs union = hard border with RoI.
> So no problems there, then?



Border isn't down to customs union.  There are hard customs borders within mainland EU, its customs co operation that you have to think about.  If we keep our software formating compatable with the EU, all but suspect trucks, can roll right through.


A number plate scanner and a RFID  scanner on a gantry, and a hut


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## brogdale (Jan 17, 2017)

gosub said:


> Border isn't down to customs union.  *There are hard customs borders within mainland EU*, its customs co operation that you have to think about.  If we keep our software formating compatable with the EU, all but suspect trucks, can roll right through



Eh?


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## Pickman's model (Jan 17, 2017)

brogdale said:


> Eh?


don't even go there, broggers, don't even go there.


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## brogdale (Jan 17, 2017)

All here.


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## gosub (Jan 17, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> don't even go there, broggers, don't even go there.



probvably best.  quite distracted shit load of work to do ahead of thurs deadline

About TIR


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## TopCat (Jan 18, 2017)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Can't we use this juncture to give NI back to the Irish? The only people who'd give a fuck are the loony-loyalists, do we really want them? Let them become Dublin's problem...


Why should Dublin clear up our mess?


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 18, 2017)

TopCat said:


> Why should Dublin clear up our mess?



Cos we don't seem able to do it.


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## Pickman's model (Jan 18, 2017)

TopCat said:


> Why should Dublin clear up our mess?


because our government only does making messes and not clearing them up


----------



## brogdale (Jan 21, 2017)

The north needs a special designated status within the EU. 

Strong point, I'd have thought?


> Adams said: “The British position also fails to take account of the fact that citizens in the north, under the agreement, have a right to Irish citizenship and therefore EU citizenship.”


----------



## likesfish (Jan 23, 2017)

Northern ireland was a bad idea when it was proposed Carson the fuckwit lived long enough to regret its creation.
But we are where we are now the South can't afford the north its only kept afloat by british civil service jobs and subsidys .
 Offical  uk goverment policy was too ignore the place which went well for fifty years till it literally exploded .


----------



## Old Spark (Jan 23, 2017)

Well dont know about the impact of exit but if Michelle O'Neill becomes deputy first minister noone will get a word in edgeways.


----------



## Old Spark (Jan 24, 2017)

May turns down invite from Edna Kenny to address the Dail when she meets him.

Irish unimpressed.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 16, 2017)

Meanwhile in Europe...



> The Minister for Finance has confirmed that Revenue Commissioners are *currently in the process of identifying location points along the border for the return of full customs checkpoints as it prepares for Britain’s withdrawal from the European Union.*
> 
> Following this confirmation Sinn Féin's Pearse Doherty TD said the prospect of full border checkpoints being established at various locations in counties Donegal, Louth, Monaghan, Cavan, and Leitrim seems to be very much on the cards


----------



## likesfish (Feb 16, 2017)

Old Spark said:


> May turns down invite from Edna Kenny to address the Dail when she meets him.
> 
> Irish unimpressed.



Probably because "oh fuck I didnt think and havn't got a clue what to do about Ireland or Northern Ireland  isnt going to go down well The British tend to treat ireland as a semi detached part of the UK apart from the north which is the mad relative in the Attic who we  dont talk about.
Doesnt help that London has a bigger population than ireland wales and scotland put together.


----------



## SaskiaJayne (Feb 16, 2017)

If UK & Ireland are both determined that the completely open border will remain then it's difficult to see how the EU could change that. It just sounds like BBC worst case scenario remoaner stuff to me.


----------



## likesfish (Feb 16, 2017)

Yes because Northern ireland is still soaked in petrol and throwing matches is really going to help.


----------



## Dogsauce (Feb 17, 2017)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> ((((PENGUINS))))



I saw a penguin parade at Edinburgh Zoo once, just add a few sashes and I reckon they'll get along fine.


----------



## Celyn (Feb 17, 2017)

The sash their feathers wore.

Poor penguins. How will they manage the big noisy drums?

Perhaps it could be a sort of exchange thing. The penguins might quite like to move to somewhere less icy, and the orange types can do whatever they want and harm no-one.


----------



## likesfish (Feb 17, 2017)

Its perfect Argentina wants those islands so they have catholics to annoy although building a bonfire on an ireland with no trees and making it bigger enough to be seen from 1000 miles away might present  a chalenge


----------



## brogdale (Mar 7, 2017)

On C4 News last night Gary Gibbon said that one of the first things that SF told Brokenshire they wanted (after telling him he was unfit to chair negotiations) was a referendum on a united Ireland. (2.00mins)


----------



## likesfish (Mar 7, 2017)

not sure Ireland would be that keen on taking the North at the moment one thing if they are all happy clappy at the idea but with a small % of loyalists murderously unhappy at the prospect the idea would rapidly pale.
 its not like Ireland could actually afford to police the north if it kicks off.


----------



## Captain Christy (Mar 7, 2017)

likesfish said:


> not sure Ireland would be that keen on taking the North at the moment one thing if they are all happy clappy at the idea but with a small % of loyalists murderously unhappy at the prospect the idea would rapidly pale.
> its not like Ireland could actually afford to police the north if it kicks off.


Dont agree with that. All they need do is make every paramilitary a community worker like they did in Northern Ireland. Pay them a handy wage each week for drinking tea and playing pool in the local youth club and spending the rest of the day in Paddy Powers


----------



## flypanam (Mar 7, 2017)

likesfish said:


> not sure Ireland would be that keen on taking the North at the moment one thing if they are all happy clappy at the idea but with a small % of loyalists murderously unhappy at the prospect the idea would rapidly pale.
> its not like Ireland could actually afford to police the north if it kicks off.



I'm pretty sure that the Irish establishment is not to keen to see a united Ireland, butrecent polls conducted at home have shown that a majority of people in the south want a united Ireland. This is just one such poll admittedly for The Journal Poll: Do you want to see a united Ireland? there have been others, which shows a consistently high support for a 32 county Republic.

As for the cost I think N_igma mentioned that a unified Ireland could see the economy benefit by up to $38bn http://prcg.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Modeling-Irish-Unification-Report.pdf

As for loyalists, the majority while they may bash the Lambeg, shout FTP, talk in a fucking made up language and generally act like sectarian arseholes after too many lemonades on the 12th, without the backing of the British state will somehow find away to accommodate to Dublin.  They'll do it quickly to have some influence. This will be especially true of the MC loyalists. As for WC loyalists, there may even be  sense that 'lets see how things go, can't be any worse than what we had' (curious thing about the last election in the north was the amount of young prods openly saying they gave the Shinners a high preference rather than vote for the DUP.)

Anyway the Irish state will probably NOT de-Baath the statlets cops so will have some sense of continuity.

Most of those who would probably talk about making trouble will probably head to Larne, get the ferry, and settle in Bolton.


----------



## LiamO (Mar 7, 2017)

likesfish said:


> but with a small % of loyalists murderously unhappy at the prospect the idea would rapidly pale.
> its not like Ireland could actually afford to police the north if it kicks off.



Oh yeah. The famous, scary loyalists who never did fuck all without the organising and back up of the british or the RUC Special Branch... who even their own won't vote for... and whose hungerstrikes lasted til lunchtime.

Bunch of fat, ageing, drug-dealing parasites. I look forward to the day when working class loyalist communities are confident enough to turn on the cunts.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Mar 7, 2017)

sorta relevant in a way. Mad Mel is off again...

Furious response to column saying Ireland has ‘tenuous claim to nationhood’


----------



## flypanam (Mar 8, 2017)

not-bono-ever said:


> sorta relevant in a way. Mad Mel is off again...
> 
> Furious response to column saying Ireland has ‘tenuous claim to nationhood’



Next thing she'll be decrying that 'The Irish never became white'. She's a goon an upmarket Katie Hopkins (She's more a Choirzo kind of girl). I kind of hope Bishop Street (Sunday Times in Ireland HQ, unless it's moved) is swamped today.


----------



## flypanam (Mar 8, 2017)

.


----------



## Captain Christy (Mar 8, 2017)

flypanam said:


> Next thing she'll be decrying that 'The Irish never became white'. She's a goon an upmarket Katie Hopkins (She's more a Choirzo kind of girl). I kind of hope Bishop Street (Sunday Times in Ireland HQ, unless it's moved) is swamped today.


Is she a pen pal of Arlene?


----------



## ska invita (Mar 8, 2017)

Good little piece here picking apart Phillips article, and raising some interesting points:
Authentic Nations

I particularly like this line (which makes more sense in the context of the article) "Got it? Scotland and Ireland don’t really exist, but Britain does, but it’s really England." <- which sums up UKIPs vision , and why I think much of the Brexit vote and campaign was based on that same understanding...Brexit as a form of 'English' Independence vote (not for everyone of course). Phillips is useful in demonstrating what people like this really understand by "UK", and how little fucks were given or considered about Scotland or NI in terms of Brexit.


----------



## Rimbaud (Mar 16, 2017)

With the announcement of Indyref2, Sinn Fein seem to be pushing for a border poll on unification with Ireland. And importantly, as of earlier this month, Unionists no longer have a majority in Stormont.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/video-news/video-brexit-sinn-feins-martina-anderson-tells-theresa-may-to-stick-border-where-the-sun-dont-shine-35530267.html

Irish border poll unlikely, but possible - BBC News



> *Irish border poll unlikely, but possible*
> 
> A bewildering list of developments has contributed to a sense that perhaps the political tectonic plates are on the move.
> 
> ...


----------



## flypanam (Mar 29, 2017)

Two things of small interest the first that The North if unified into a united Ireland will get straight into the EU, which I think could in time become a big carrot to the unionist rural population down the line. The second is that the weird/nutty/Nazi end of loyalism (sort of/sort of not) represented by Jim Dawson are now arguing that a federal Ireland could be a solution. Far-right millionaire: I'll use social media network to back Scottish independence


----------



## brogdale (Mar 29, 2017)

*David Davis united Ireland letter shows Northern Ireland has automatic route back to EU: SDLP chief Eastwood*


> Unlike Scotland, which has been told it could be forced to join a queue for membership of the bloc if the country votes for independence, *the province would not have to reapply for EU membership*, as the Republic is already one of the existing member states, Tory minister said.
> 
> In a letter to SDLP MP Mark Durkan, David Davis wrote: *“If a majority of the people of Northern Ireland were ever to vote to become part of a united Ireland the UK Government will honour its commitment to enable that to happen.”*


----------



## likesfish (Mar 30, 2017)

The open border is apprantly staying so we will see how much chaos ensures from that decision as far as I know it was never fenced anyways so what exactly they are expecting not really sure.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 30, 2017)

likesfish said:


> *The open border is apprantly staying* so we will see how much chaos ensures from that decision as far as I know it was never fenced anyways so what exactly they are expecting not really sure.


Who tells you that?


----------



## likesfish (Mar 30, 2017)

http://www.independent.ie/business/brexit/there-will-be-no-return-to-the-hard-border-theresa

Herr may herself if only because we cant afford to put a fence up


----------



## brogdale (Mar 30, 2017)

likesfish said:


> http://www.independent.ie/business/brexit/there-will-be-no-return-to-the-hard-border-theresa
> 
> Herr may herself if only because we cant afford to put a fence up


The CTA (_Comhlimistéar Taistil_) is not the same as a Common Trade Area, though.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 8, 2017)

This is an interesting read (thanks paul):



*The ex-IRA men: ‘United Ireland? It’s all guff’*



> Brexit will not lead to a return to bloodshed in Northern Ireland, says one Provisional IRA veteran. Talk of a united Ireland is all guff, according to another. A third former republican paramilitary suggests that Ireland would be better off in an economic bloc with the UK rather than with the European Union.
> 
> These are among the surprising views expressed by a number of former hard men of republicanism, interviewed by The Irish Times for their unique insights into the thorny issues of Brexit and Northern Ireland’s future.
> 
> Three of the four are convicted killers or have served time in relation to a killing. The fourth was imprisoned for offences that included attempted murder. They were active in some of the bloodiest campaigns of the Troubles, and for three of them much of that activity took place along the Border.





> Lynagh refers to the high proportion of social-welfare recipients in Monaghan, the county’s “low-wage and no-wage economy” and his work distributing charity food to families. He goes so far as to propose an Irish exit from the EU, given the way that Brussels and the European Central Bank, in Frankfurt, landed Irish people with austerity and a hefty bill from the bank bailouts.
> 
> He recalls the “EEC No” signs that accompanied “Brits Out” graffiti around Monaghan when he was growing, up in the 1970s. Euroscepticism had a long history in the area, he says, before Ireland went into the EU.
> 
> The lifelong Irish republican even suggests that it could as easily be argued that breaking from the European Union and joining forces with the UK would make better economic sense for the country.





> The European Union is as much of an imperial power as – if not more than – Britain at the moment,” Lynagh says. “We are faced with the possibility of two foreign powers implementing the partition of Ireland, and where is the demand in Ireland to say, ‘What gives you the power to do this?’ ”
> 
> McKearney adds, “It is economic imperialism we are dealing with, as opposed to the imperialism that was so raw and so in our face under British imperialism. This is the infrastructure that the European Union has created, and concentrating on a customs post in Aughnacloy is taking us off the core argument


----------



## Ax^ (Apr 8, 2017)

the irish times a fair and balanced paper

you may as well believe the mail


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 8, 2017)

What do you mean believe? You think the quotes are invented?


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 8, 2017)

Ax^ said:


> the irish times a fair and balanced paper
> 
> you may as well believe the mail



I don't believe Butchers made any reference to it being 'a fair and balanced paper'. It's content is an interesting read though, perhaps for someone like you who has mostly posted lazy two liner shit all the way through the EU ref threads.


----------



## Red Cat (Apr 8, 2017)

I thought it was interesting too.


----------



## Ax^ (Apr 8, 2017)

stethoscope said:


> I don't believe Butchers made any reference to it being 'a fair and balanced paper'. It's content is an interesting read though, perhaps for someone like you who has mostly posted lazy two liner shit all the way through the EU ref threads.



cross thread beef nice

it may as well be a British paper so alright it may be an interesting read ... 

but would i take it with a pinch of salt...

and can be lazy about the EU Ref regardless of the result my country was not leaving the EU


----------



## ska invita (Feb 9, 2018)

Can someone help explain to me what is happening/implications here?
Northern Ireland will stay in single market after Brexit, EU says

Is this just a bit of hardball from the EU negotiators?


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 9, 2018)

ska invita said:


> Can someone help explain to me what is happening/implications here?
> Northern Ireland will stay in single market after Brexit, EU says
> 
> Is this just a bit of hardball from the EU negotiators?


they don't need to play hardball when they hold all the cards and her majesty's government haven't a fucking clue what they're up to.


----------



## ska invita (Feb 9, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> they don't need to play hardball when they hold all the cards and her majesty's government haven't a fucking clue what they're up to.


doesnt it contradict that long drawn out agreement they pretended to reach in December? The one David Davis masterfully did an interview the next day and said its not worth the paper its written on? 
Im finding it hard to keep up


----------



## Rosemary Jest (Feb 9, 2018)

ska invita said:


> doesnt it contradict that long drawn out agreement they pretended to reach in December? The one David Davis masterfully did an interview the next day and said its not worth the paper its written on?
> Im finding it hard to keep up



See the post above, the government haven't got a clue.


----------



## Winot (Feb 9, 2018)

ska invita said:


> doesnt it contradict that long drawn out agreement they pretended to reach in December? The one David Davis masterfully did an interview the next day and said its not worth the paper its written on?
> Im finding it hard to keep up



The Phase 1 agreement in December basically kicked the NI problem into the (not very) long grass. It effectively said ‘we are going to collectively aim to achieve [something that’s not practically possible]”. 

It’s not possible to have no hard border between NI and Eire if Eire is in the Customs Union / Single Market and NI isn’t. 

No Brexiteers have a practical solution to this that I have seen. 

Barnier is only stating the obvious.


----------



## marty21 (Feb 9, 2018)

Winot said:


> The Phase 1 agreement in December basically kicked the NI problem into the (not very) long grass. It effectively said ‘we are going to collectively aim to achieve [something that’s not practically possible]”.
> 
> It’s not possible to have no hard border between NI and Eire if Eire is in the Customs Union / Single Market and NI isn’t.
> 
> ...


A United Ireland seems a practical solution - no border issues then


----------



## ska invita (Feb 9, 2018)

marty21 said:


> A United Ireland seems a practical solution - no border issues then


all these tiny steps and statements aside i think the long term effect of brexit (say 20 years down the line) will be a united ireland. possibly. obviously a lot of water to flow under a lot of bridges before then, but its opened up the possibility in a way that wasnt there before


----------



## marty21 (Feb 9, 2018)

ska invita said:


> all these tiny steps and statements aside i think the long term effect of brexit (say 20 years down the line) will be a united ireland. possibly. obviously a lot of water to flow under a lot of bridges before then, but its opened up the possibility in a way that wasnt there before


an unexpected benefit of brexit


----------



## ska invita (Feb 9, 2018)

marty21 said:


> an unexpected benefit of brexit


well yes, though the fact its unexpected and that no English politicians gave one thought to Northern Ireland ahead of the referendum says everything about the nature of The Union.


----------



## Winot (Feb 9, 2018)

marty21 said:


> A United Ireland seems a practical solution - no border issues then



I'm sure that'll go down a storm with May's political partners


----------



## ska invita (Feb 9, 2018)

Winot said:


> I'm sure that'll go down a storm with May's political partners


If this Northern Ireland will stay in single market after Brexit, EU says thing has any weight we'll be hearing from them very shortly i expect

( cant tell if it has weight or not)


----------



## SpookyFrank (Feb 9, 2018)

Winot said:


> I'm sure that'll go down a storm with May's political partners



Would be bloody marvellous if the DUP's choice to prop up May ended up causing an Irish reunification.


----------



## Teaboy (Feb 9, 2018)

SpookyFrank said:


> Would be bloody marvellous if the DUP's choice to prop up May ended up causing an Irish reunification.



I dunno it's not without risk.  How many would die laughing?


----------



## likesfish (Feb 9, 2018)

Considering the calibre and talent of the brexit team we might wake up to discover the the British isles is reunited and now ruled from Dublin


----------



## likesfish (Feb 10, 2018)

ska invita said:


> well yes, though the fact its unexpected and that no English politicians gave one thought to Northern Ireland ahead of the referendum says everything about the nature of The Union.



tbf they hardly gave a thought when the place was in flames and troops were on the ground


----------



## flypanam (Feb 10, 2018)

True but they were quite supportive when the troops were killing civilians at checkpoints, as an example Aidan McAnespie 30 years ago this weekend.


----------



## Celyn (Feb 10, 2018)

Well, the British Army of occupation is not really very popular, is it?
I look forward with great joy to when "Great Britain" has to deal with important stuff.


----------



## likesfish (Feb 10, 2018)

flypanam said:


> True but they were quite supportive when the troops were killing civilians at checkpoints, as an example Aidan McAnespie 30 years ago this weekend.



that was a fuckwitted accident the poor Sod was hit by two ricochets at 300m nobody could pull that shot off deliberately. best guess the woodentop before him fucked up the unload and thenwas a too bone idle to check the gun and then decided to amuse himself by aiming at Mr McAnespie's back. pulled the trigger and surprise the gun went off.


----------



## Baronage-Phase (Feb 10, 2018)

The older "ex IRA" people (PIRA) mentioned in The Times newspaper, are not the only republican group with military backgrounds around. With respect to them they don't always know or control everything.
It would be like asking the 1916 -1922 IRA to control the 1970s PIRA. In other words, the RIRA's right hand doesn't always know what it's left hand is doing. And the older PIRA is perfectly ok with that. 
Not to mention the CIRA or the RCIRA or the INLA.


----------



## ska invita (Feb 27, 2018)

Good point re any just customs union deal, it does not "entirely solve the question of the Irish border, as the proposed customs union would not allow people to travel unhindered, just goods. "


----------



## Raheem (Feb 27, 2018)

ska invita said:


> Good point re any just customs union deal, it does not "entirely solve the question of the Irish border, as the proposed customs union would not allow people to travel unhindered, just goods. "



It wouldn't entirely resolve the border question, but it would stop it from being completely unresolvable in principle.


----------



## ska invita (Feb 27, 2018)

Raheem said:


> It wouldn't entirely resolve the border question, but it would stop it from being completely unresolvable in principle.


I dont follow, can you say more? A border is required to solve the two Brexit-created problems, legal passage of goods and legal passage of people. A customs union only solves one of those problems. I cant see how it makes any difference to the other.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Feb 27, 2018)

ska invita said:


> I dont follow, can you say more? A border is required to solve the two Brexit-created problems, legal passage of goods and legal passage of people. A customs union only solves one of those problems. I cant see how it makes any difference to the other.



As Ireland is not in Schengen, it’s not hard to conceive of a continuing Irish-British free travel arrangement. Travelers from the rest of the EU already have to go through passport control to get into Ireland. The customs union is the conceptually trickier part.


----------



## ska invita (Feb 27, 2018)

Nigel Irritable said:


> As Ireland is not in Schengen, it’s not hard to conceive of a continuing Irish-British free travel arrangement. Travelers from the rest of the EU already have to go through passport control to get into Ireland. The customs union is the conceptually trickier part.


I cant picture what you mean. 
Someone from the EU getting in to Ireland is a wave through, but they can then just jump on a ferry to anglesey _undetected_


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Feb 27, 2018)

ska invita said:


> I cant picture what you mean.
> Someone from the EU getting in to Ireland is a wave through, but they can then just jump on a ferry to anglesey _undetected_



This really isn’t an issue - there’s passport control between Ireland and the Continental EU and it’s almost certain that a Brexited Britain would enter into a visa free travel (as opposed to residency and employment) arrangement with the EU like every other rich country. The core dispute about “free movement” isn’t movement but residency and employment and that’s something that doesn’t have to be dealt with at the point of entry.

The customs union fudge is a lot trickier.


----------



## Raheem (Feb 27, 2018)

ska invita said:


> I cant picture what you mean.
> Someone from the EU getting in to Ireland is a wave through, but they can then just jump on a ferry to anglesey _undetected_



If you make a decision that you need to detect EU citizens entering the country, then that might make things difficult. But it's not a necessary part of Brexit. Here is what you could do, for example:

1) Allow Irish citizens the same right of free movement to the UK as they have now;
2) Allow EU citizens visa-free travel for tourism purposes;
3) Either:
a) Have an agreement with Ireland such that anyone who legally enters Ireland is also allowed to legally enter the UK (but not to work, reside, study etc); or
b) Accept that you will have to deal with a manageable problem of people entering into the country illegally, which is simply part of the price to be paid.​


----------



## ska invita (Feb 27, 2018)

Raheem said:


> If you make a decision that you need to detect EU citizens entering the country, then that might make things difficult. But it's not a necessary part of Brexit. Here is what you could do, for example:
> 
> 1) Allow Irish citizens the same right of free movement to the UK as they have now;
> 2) Allow EU citizens visa-free travel for tourism purposes;
> ...


cant see any realistic version that doesnt include some degree of 3b, and I wonder who cares about that. i dont of course, but will the EU? Will the UK government of the day? Whatever, we'll find out soon enough


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Feb 27, 2018)

Who exactly is it that you expect to get to the UK illegally via Ireland? EU citizens will have visa free entry directly to the UK anyway. Ireland’s border controls are every bit as racist towards brown people who aren’t EU citizens as Britain’s ones.


----------



## ska invita (Feb 27, 2018)

ah ok, i can picture it now


----------



## 8115 (Feb 27, 2018)

Goods will be the main problem, no?

Presumably that's why they keep talking about a customs union.


----------



## Raheem (Feb 27, 2018)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Who exactly is it that you expect to get to the UK illegally via Ireland? EU citizens will have visa free entry directly to the UK anyway. Ireland’s border controls are every bit as racist towards brown people who aren’t EU citizens as Britain’s ones.



The default would be that anyone in ROI on a visa, plus asylum seekers and people with leave to remain, who crosses the border for any reason would be doing so illegally. But you could conceivably have an UK-ROI agreement that says it's actually OK for them to do that, and then you don't have a problem.


----------



## 8115 (Feb 27, 2018)

Also this technological solution still seems to be a synonym for "magic".


----------



## krtek a houby (Feb 28, 2018)

Boris has the answer.
Boris shares his inspired solution to the Irish border question | John Crace
The twat.


----------



## likesfish (Feb 28, 2018)

There is not an insignificant amount of people in the uk who actually think Ireland is part of the uk  and don’t really understand the difference between north and souther Ireland .

Which is quite amusing when prods find out there “paddy” in England 

But but your irish


----------



## krtek a houby (Feb 28, 2018)

likesfish said:


> There is not an insignificant amount of people in the uk who actually think Ireland is part of the uk  and don’t really understand the difference between north and souther Ireland .
> 
> Which is quite amusing when prods find out there “paddy” in England
> 
> But but your irish



Wait until you tell them that there's protestants in the Republic. Meltdown ahoy!


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 28, 2018)

Is this spout an ignorant prejudice day on here or something?


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 28, 2018)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Who exactly is it that you expect to get to the UK illegally via Ireland? EU citizens will have visa free entry directly to the UK anyway. Ireland’s border controls are every bit as racist towards brown people who aren’t EU citizens as Britain’s ones.


britain's ones are quite racist towards brown people who are eu citizens, as i saw when coming back from dublin some years ago, when the only person on a coach almost entirely full of anarchists searched at uk customs was the one black man, a respectable civil servant who'd been on holiday in ireland.


----------



## MickiQ (Feb 28, 2018)

If the UK is outside the customs union but there is free movement of goods and services into and out of the EU from the UK then it becomes feasible for American or Chinese goods which don't meet EU standards being imported into Britain and then onwards into the  EU so border checks are needed to stop that. 
What Boris doesn't get because he is a fucking idiot is that the problem isn't goods coming from the Ireland into the UK but goods going the other way round,  if there is an open border then there is a gaping hole in the EU's border checks.  
I can't imagine that the actual rights of Irish citizens to enter or leave the UK will change but if there is a border check looking for goods then it is going to stop people even if all it does is look at their passports and wave them through, it will affect people's perceptions more than it will affect them in reality and perceptions count for a lot.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Feb 28, 2018)

I was just ruminating on shit foreign secretaries 

Johnson is an absolute pig headed spoilt fool but has yet to trigger or drag us unwittingly into a bloody conflict. I am sure he is working on his place on history but he has stiff competition.


----------



## likesfish (Feb 28, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> Is this spout an ignorant prejudice day on here or something?



well England and Ireland boneheaded stupidity was bound to rear its head at some point


----------



## Streathamite (Feb 28, 2018)

in fact, on Ireland there seem to me to be only 3 real alternatives - a hard border brought back (neither Dublin nor the EU will accept that), reunification of Ireland (every Unionist in NI would go apes hit, and we probably have another war) - or CU & SM for the UK.
Which is why the Tories are desperately trying to magic up an option 4,but there isn't one.
(hence Boris's latest outpouring of spectacular, olympian bollocks, whereby Euston Road became directly analogous with the Falls Road￼￼￼￼￼￼


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 1, 2018)

what happens to people who live and work on both sides of the border? which is a lot of people. Someone like a joiner or trainer will be working all over the island - will they have to get visas and/or fill in forms every time they travel back and forth between belfast and dundalk? 
Its this sort of shit that will be bitterly resented.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Mar 1, 2018)

Israel seem to be able to handle the daily movement of workers to and fro  from Palestine with no problems or stress. Lol ( not lol)


----------



## Dogsauce (Mar 1, 2018)

MickiQ said:


> If the UK is outside the customs union but there is free movement of goods and services into and out of the EU from the UK then it becomes feasible for American or Chinese goods which don't meet EU standards being imported into Britain and then onwards into the  EU so border checks are needed to stop that.
> What Boris doesn't get because he is a fucking idiot is that the problem isn't goods coming from the Ireland into the UK but goods going the other way round,  if there is an open border then there is a gaping hole in the EU's border checks.
> (...)



In reality there are loads of those uncertified and unsafe goods coming in all the time via direct purchases (eBay etc) and stuff going direct to retailers both here and on the continent (if anything it's worse on the continent). I'm not sure it'll have much impact on the availability of exploding phone chargers whatever way it's done.


----------



## Raheem (Mar 1, 2018)

Dogsauce said:


> In reality there are loads of those uncertified and unsafe goods coming in all the time via direct purchases (eBay etc) and stuff going direct to retailers both here and on the continent (if anything it's worse on the continent). I'm not sure it'll have much impact on the availability of exploding phone chargers whatever way it's done.



This is possibly a fair point, although there is the matter of scale to consider. The problem, though, is not so much the exploding phone chargers as the Irish border.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 1, 2018)

Streathamite said:


> in fact, on Ireland there seem to me to be only 3 real alternatives - a hard border brought back (neither Dublin nor the EU will accept that), reunification of Ireland (every Unionist in NI would go apes hit, and we probably have another war) - or CU & SM for the UK.
> Which is why the Tories are desperately trying to magic up an option 4,but there isn't one.
> (hence Boris's latest outpouring of spectacular, olympian bollocks, whereby Euston Road became directly analogous with the Falls Road￼￼￼￼￼￼



I am enjoying all the prevarication and bluster from the tories on this. They agreed to something vague back in December, then the EU wrote it down and sent it back to them and now they're saying they would never agree to such a thing. They're not of course saying what their solution is, because they don't have one.

I look forward to seeing how long they can drag this out for without actually telling anyone how they plan to get around EU law, the GFA or both and how they plan to sell that plan to their spittle-flecked chums at the DUP.


----------



## Smangus (Mar 1, 2018)

The  Tories are fucked ,it's great.


----------



## MickiQ (Mar 1, 2018)

SpookyFrank said:


> I am enjoying all the prevarication and bluster from the tories on this. They agreed to something vague back in December, then the EU wrote it down and sent it back to them and now they're saying they would never agree to such a thing. They're not of course saying what their solution is, because they don't have one.
> 
> I look forward to seeing how long they can drag this out for without actually telling anyone how they plan to get around EU law, the GFA or both and how they plan to sell that plan to their spittle-flecked chums at the DUP.


All this bollocks started because Cameron wanted to unite his backbenchers there is a certain karma in watching it rip them to shreds


----------



## not-bono-ever (Mar 1, 2018)

yes but down the line, we will invariably pay for their career choices. Tory career politicos and cockroaches survive most things


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 1, 2018)

not-bono-ever said:


> I was just ruminating on shit foreign secretaries
> 
> Johnson is an absolute pig headed spoilt fool but has yet to trigger or drag us unwittingly into a bloody conflict. I am sure he is working on his place on history but he has stiff competition.


"yet"


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 1, 2018)

Streathamite said:


> in fact, on Ireland there seem to me to be only 3 real alternatives - a hard border brought back (neither Dublin nor the EU will accept that), reunification of Ireland (every Unionist in NI would go apes hit, and we probably have another war) - or CU & SM for the UK.
> Which is why the Tories are desperately trying to magic up an option 4,but there isn't one.
> (hence Boris's latest outpouring of spectacular, olympian bollocks, whereby Euston Road became directly analogous with the Falls Road￼￼￼￼￼￼


everyone hates him on the euston road too


----------



## Streathamite (Mar 1, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> everyone hates him on the euston road too


true!


----------



## ska invita (May 20, 2018)

interesting

talk of a vote on unification in 2022?
piece suggests a significant changing positive mood towards a united ireland, especially if its a hard brexit


----------



## Gerry1time (May 20, 2018)

ska invita said:


> interesting
> 
> talk of a vote on unification in 2022?
> piece suggests a significant changing positive mood towards a united ireland, especially if its a hard brexit




Would love to see Jeremy Corbyn asking the PM if they'll still call themselves the Conservative and Unionist Party after their actions force the end of the union.


----------



## Raheem (May 21, 2018)

ska invita said:


> interesting
> 
> talk of a vote on unification in 2022?
> piece suggests a significant changing positive mood towards a united ireland, especially if its a hard brexit




Interesting indeed. I'm not going to claim to have the inside track on Northern Ireland, but I suspect talking to wealthy people and the sort of people who are interested in cross-community arts workshops might not give you a picture reflective of the entire population. But it has to be said that it's not a massive population, so it quite possibly doesn't take that many people to sit down and have a think...


----------



## ska invita (May 21, 2018)

Raheem said:


> Interesting indeed. I'm not going to claim to have the inside track on Northern Ireland, but I suspect talking to wealthy people and the sort of people who are interested in cross-community arts workshops might not give you a picture reflective of the entire population. But it has to be said that it's not a massive population, so it quite possibly doesn't take that many people to sit down and have a think...


Yes, there are several different people interviewed there and i was left wondering about the politics of why they were chosen. Someone from a Farmers Union might well be more likely to be worried about loss of EU subsidies for example. The big insider who reckons there are talks about what a united Ireland might look like at pretty much every level of government is this guy Jim Dornan (gynaecologist) - Wikipedia who seems a very random choice to me...
Nonetheless, taking the piece with a bit of good faith I could well imagine it all to be pointing to some kind of truth... the possibility of it being raw soft brexit propaganda is there though


----------



## ska invita (May 21, 2018)

Just saw this too Support for Brexit falls sharply in Northern Ireland "in 2016, the region voted 56% to remain and 44% to leave, but support for leaving the bloc has fallen 13 points to 31%, "


----------



## Poi E (May 21, 2018)

Ungrateful sods, with that billion pound bung to the voice of the Union in NI.


----------



## likesfish (May 21, 2018)

not sure the economics are that good an awful lot of jobs are UK civil service etc but if we can get rid of Northern Ireland it would be the only good thing about Brexit


----------



## philosophical (Aug 26, 2018)

I was directed here from another thread.
The post above is priceless.
'WE'.
In terms of the UK, Northern Ireland is part of the 'we' of the UK.
They participated in the brexit referendum.
So I wonder who is the 'we' that the poster above is referring to.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 26, 2018)

philosophical said:


> I was directed here from another thread.
> The post above is priceless.
> 'WE'.
> In terms of the UK, Northern Ireland is part of the 'we' of the UK.
> ...


Try reading it through, not just the last (fucking stupid) post, eh?


----------



## likesfish (Aug 26, 2018)

England Ireland Wales and Scotland nearly have as many people as Greater London. 

  So the sick countries can join the 21st century or fuck off they won't be missed and a billion quid would be saved.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 26, 2018)

likesfish said:


> England Ireland Wales and Scotland nearly have as many people as Greater London.
> 
> So the sick countries can join the 21st century or fuck off they won't be missed and a billion quid would be saved.


What?


----------



## DexterTCN (Aug 26, 2018)

likesfish said:


> England Ireland Wales and Scotland nearly have as many people as Greater London.
> 
> So the sick countries can join the 21st century or fuck off they won't be missed and a billion quid would be saved.


Ireland?


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 26, 2018)

bit odd to be suggesting that line when the Tory Party had to shore up its GE result with a few Randoms from the DUP


----------



## brogdale (Sep 13, 2019)

Tucked away at the end of this times piece:



> A poll by the Tory peer Lord Ashcroft found that 46 per cent of voters in Northern Ireland would back a united Ireland, compared with 45 per cent who were opposed.


----------



## Gaia (Sep 13, 2019)

brogdale said:


> What?



I think likesfish is conflating Northern Ireland with the DUP. Fish Face, you can't hold the entirety of NI responsible for the beliefs and actions of a few fringe Xtian nutters. *They're* the problem.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Sep 13, 2019)

Is sick countries a typo that's meant to read six counties or deliberate unpleasantness?


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 13, 2019)

That's so sic (sic)


----------



## flypanam (Sep 17, 2019)

An interesting thread here from a unionist musing that a united Ireland would'nt be as shit as Westminster


----------



## likesfish (Sep 17, 2019)

SpineyNorman said:


> Is sick countries a typo that's meant to read six counties or deliberate unpleasantness?



Place has been a  nightmare since carson vision of a prod home for prods at least he live long enough too see his vision turn into the entirely predictable nightmare.
 It poisioned itself and allowed the South to turn itself to the Catholic Churchs favorite gimp.
 Westminsters official policy was to ignore it till it all went to shit even then it rapidly went to anybother business till everyone was througly sick of the "war"
  Now some feckwits seem too be up for round 2
 Place has a multi generational case of PTSD UK gov did a bang up job there usually with or colonial fuck ups we did it far away.


----------



## flypanam (Sep 18, 2019)

Just in case some here don't quite understand just how unruly the border counties are read this
Quinn Industrial boss Kevin Lunney abducted from home and dumped after horrific attack - BelfastTelegraph.co.uk

Guard: Mr Quinn where were you on the night of...


----------



## ska invita (Feb 14, 2021)

Can I ask people to post N Ireland relate stuff in this thread if possible? I'm finding it hard to keep up with the mega brexit thread and im particularly interested in this topic. 
Thanks!


----------



## ska invita (Feb 26, 2021)

interesting mechanic this:

" If the rest of the UK does diverge further from EU regulations, the problem will become more acute, because any divergence from EU standards means a deepening of the sea border between Northern Ireland and Great Britain. "

every inch towards "divergence" aka deregulation will cut northern ireland off that much further by making the sea border that much more necessary


----------



## ska invita (Mar 3, 2021)

This looks like a pretty significant escalation








						EU says plan to extend Brexit grace period breaks international law
					

EU says move to exempt goods entering Northern Ireland from checks is ‘violation’ of withdrawal treaty




					www.theguardian.com
				





> Maroš Šefčovič, the vice-president of the commission, said a move announced by Northern Ireland secretary Brandon Lewis to exempt goods coming from Great Britain from checks amounted to a “violation” of the withdrawal agreement.
> “This is the second time that the UK government is set to breach international law,” the statement said. “This also constitutes a clear departure from the constructive approach that has prevailed up until now.”



might just be a bit of diplomatic hot air, but im sceptical they can resolve this


----------



## philosophical (Mar 3, 2021)

Some kind of enforcement structures somehow established on the land border in Ireland seems to be creeping closer.


----------



## ska invita (Mar 4, 2021)

ska invita said:


> This looks like a pretty significant escalation
> 
> 
> 
> ...











						EU 'simply cannot trust' British government after Brexit protocol move, says Simon Coveney
					

Tánaiste Simon Coveney has said the EU is negotiating with a partner it "simply cannot trust" after the UK's latest Brexit move.




					www.irishnews.com
				



"
"*That is why the EU is now looking at legal options and legal actions which effectively means a much more formalised and rigid negotiation process *as opposed to a process of partnership where you try to solve problems together, so this is really unwelcome."It's the British government essentially breaking the protocol, breaking their own commitments again, and the EU having to then consider how they respond to that."

The EU have the legal agreement on their side. The only way I can imagine things getting resolved here is if the EU say "oh go on then, we'll let you off on a bunch of border checks" - very reliant on goodwill. Forcing a legal standoff seems like a counterproductive dead-end for the Tories+DUP  The more this issue escalates, the more insistence there will be on the sea border.


----------



## Badgers (Mar 4, 2021)

#worldbeating


----------



## Saul Goodman (Mar 4, 2021)

Loyalist groups withdraw support for Good Friday Agreement
*








Click to expand...

*


> Loyalist paramilitary organisations have told British Prime Minister Boris Johnson they are withdrawing support for the Good Friday Agreement.











						Loyalists withdraw support for Good Friday Agreement
					

Loyalist paramilitary organisations have told British Prime Minister Boris Johnson they are withdrawing support for the Good Friday Agreement.




					www.rte.ie


----------



## editor (Mar 4, 2021)

Badgers said:


> #worldbeating


#ovenready


----------



## TopCat (Mar 4, 2021)

Is there any evidence goods etc exported from mainland Britain to NI have leaked over the border to the South?


----------



## brogdale (Mar 4, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Is there any evidence goods etc exported from mainland Britain to NI have leaked over the border to the South?


"...exported.."?
The supra state has got inside your head!


----------



## Saul Goodman (Mar 4, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Is there any evidence goods etc exported from mainland Britain to NI have leaked over the border to the South?


Yes, in my front room


----------



## TopCat (Mar 4, 2021)

brogdale said:


> "...exported.."?
> The supra state has got inside your head!


Ireland is Ireland. The abboration of NI will come to an end drawing to a close another shameful part of Brit history.


----------



## TopCat (Mar 4, 2021)

Saul Goodman said:


> Yes, in my front room


I am guessing what you mean! Has the world fallen apart as a result?


----------



## ska invita (Mar 4, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Is there any evidence goods etc exported from mainland Britain to NI have leaked over the border to the South?


This is what I was getting at - there is the possibility with a mass of diplomacy for the Tories to try and placate fears, say theres no need really, ask for an extension in the grace period and let real conditions take priority over the legal rights and wrongs, all in the name of the good friday agreement.

The Tories are doing the opposite though, trying to bulldoze through to get their own way. The more that happens, the more recourse to letter of the law kicks in


----------



## TopCat (Mar 4, 2021)

ska invita said:


> This is what I was getting at - there is the possibility with a mass of diplomacy for the Tories to try and placate fears, say theres no need really, ask for an extension in the grace period and let real conditions take priority over the legal rights and wrongs, all in the name of the good friday agreement.
> 
> The Tories are doing the opposite though, trying to bulldoze through to get their own way. The more that happens, the more recourse to letter of the law kicks in


Time will tell.


----------



## ska invita (Mar 4, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Time will tell.


"Think you're in heaven but you're living in hell"
~Bob Marley


----------



## TopCat (Mar 4, 2021)

I personally think the EU should stop fucking moaning unless it’s a big obvious problem that has an impact that can’t be ignored. Gun running etc for example.


----------



## editor (Mar 4, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I personally think the EU should stop fucking moaning unless it’s a big obvious problem that has an impact that can’t be ignored. Gun running etc for example.


Things like inflaming cross border tensions, you mean?


----------



## TopCat (Mar 4, 2021)

editor said:


> Things like inflaming cross border tensions, you mean?


We can manage that given that most of the Loyalist murder gangs making threats now were set up and supported by the UK Military. They know who they are. Personally it sounds like hot air from the loyalist murderers spokesman.


----------



## ska invita (Mar 4, 2021)

TopCat said:


> We can manage that given that most of the Loyalist murder gangs making threats now were set up and supported by the UK Military. They know who they are. Personally it sounds like hot air from the loyalist murderers spokesman.


Yes about hot air. It benefits the Tory position too, would be interesting if there was _encouragement_ from the English state


----------



## TopCat (Mar 4, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Yes about hot air. It benefits the Tory position too, would be interesting if there was _encouragement_ from the English state


It would be unlikely and would probably come from some mad military Kitson type.


----------



## TopCat (Mar 4, 2021)

I tend to think the tori’s grew to hate the loyalists over the price they paid for their support in Mays time. They won’t go out on a limb for them.


----------



## philosophical (Mar 4, 2021)

So now at least one poster who supports brexit (which hasn’t happened as voted for) is criticising the EU and asking they stop moaning about the land border in Ireland being porous unless gun running happens.
Brexit voters voting leave blaming the EU because they as voters hadn’t thought through the consequence of their vote.
Sorry brexit voters, the problems are 100% on you, but you’re such mendacious pricks you lash out blaming the blameless.
Own your own stinking chite.


----------



## ska invita (Mar 4, 2021)

"Sources in the European parliament said that as a result a decision on when the trade and security deal would be ratified had been delayed. It had been expected that a vote would be held on 25 March but after a meeting on Thursday it has been left off the parliamentary agenda for now. The vote could potentially be delayed until late April to allow MEPs to follow how the row over the Northern Ireland border develops.

*The trade and security deal with the UK is provisionally in force but it is yet to be formally ratified by the parliament. Its provisions would fall away if MEPs failed to give it their backing, leaving the UK with a no-deal outcome, including tariffs on goods.*
lol

The MEP Bernd Lange, the chair of the parliament’s trade committee, tweeted an excerpt of a previous parliamentary resolution in a sign of the anger at the UK’s move. “Still valid: ‘Should the UK authorities breach – or threaten to breach – the withdrawal agreement, through the United Kingdom internal market bill ... or in any other way, the European parliament will, under no circumstances, ratify any agreement between the EU and the UK,’” he wrote.


----------



## TopCat (Mar 4, 2021)

ska invita said:


> "Sources in the European parliament said that as a result a decision on when the trade and security deal would be ratified had been delayed. It had been expected that a vote would be held on 25 March but after a meeting on Thursday it has been left off the parliamentary agenda for now. The vote could potentially be delayed until late April to allow MEPs to follow how the row over the Northern Ireland border develops.
> 
> *The trade and security deal with the UK is provisionally in force but it is yet to be formally ratified by the parliament. Its provisions would fall away if MEPs failed to give it their backing, leaving the UK with a no-deal outcome, including tariffs on goods.*
> lol
> ...


Are they bluffing though? We are back to that game.


----------



## ska invita (Mar 5, 2021)

"The EU has two legal avenues open to it under the Brexit deals.
Under the NI part of the Brexit deal, the Protocol, it can launch infringement proceedings which could lead to a case at the European Court of Justice
It took this action at the time when the UK threatened to breach the NI deal through the Internal Market Bill.
In that case the legal proceedings were overtaken by political agreement.
(or)
The EU could also seek arbitration under the terms of the wider EU-UK trade deal."
---------------------

anyone have any insight into what those legal challenges might mean in practice?


----------



## TopCat (Mar 5, 2021)

Legal challenges will take ages. More likely that they slap retaliation tariffs on uk goods. But will they have the balls especially after the EU NI border imposition attempt.


----------



## philosophical (Mar 5, 2021)

The attempted imposition of a border is down to those who voted for it by voting leave.
They look well on their way to succeeding in the brexit generated enforced land border.


----------



## TopCat (Mar 5, 2021)

Nurse he is out of his bed again!


----------



## nogojones (Mar 5, 2021)

> Is there any evidence goods etc exported from mainland Britain to NI have leaked over the border to the South?


I was young, so my memory might be dodgy, but spent a lot of time as a kid in the 70's around the border and whenever we crossed it we were always "smuggling" something. Things were just cheaper depending on where you were, so it made sense to shop around. The RUC and army were cunts, because they knew where we lived and because of that it was clear that they saw us as enemy. But in all the times we were doing it I only recall some ham being taken off us and my auntie being strip searched a couple of times by some over zelous customs cunts.

It's going to be pretty hard to enforce a solid border there and it will just inflame tensions if they do. Fun times


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 5, 2021)

and if by magic .........


----------



## Artaxerxes (Mar 5, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> and if by magic .........




First mistake, trusting the UK to fulfill its side of the bargain


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 5, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> First mistake, trusting the UK to fulfill its side of the bargain


I don't think that the Eu needs any coaching on negotiations. I've been assured on here by many posters that they know what they are doing


----------



## ska invita (Mar 20, 2021)

If Tories refuse to go with the agreed deal and implement the Irish Sea border, which is what it looks like is now government position, what can Ireland/the EU do about it? They can't create a border on the mainland. And they cant force a border within the UK. So they've no other cards to play other than sanction/frustrate elsewhere.
By being belligerent it is possible that the Tories can get away with having no border, the question is what the price of that will be.


----------



## philosophical (Mar 20, 2021)

The tories pledged to implement the brexit vote. No border means they have (yet again) betrayed a promise.
If the UK reneges on it’s promises then in my view the EU should say all bets are off.
Start with implementing no fly zones and cutting the electricity supply to Northern Ireland from the EU country adjacent. Close the border at Calais and elsewhere on mainland EU Europe to any flow from the UK. I would see it as a consequence of the Brexit vote for the EU to ignore the UK and let it go on alone which is what the UK seems to want. Either way don’t indulge the UK by letting it have it’s cake and eat it too.
Then hopefully follow up with as much anti UK stuff that they can muster. What would be the case for any cooperation or kindness from the EU towards the UK when the UK lies and cheats?


----------



## gosub (Mar 20, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I personally think the EU should stop fucking moaning unless it’s a big obvious problem that has an impact that can’t be ignored. Gun running etc for example.



AK47's rarely have a CE mark


----------



## Rimbaud (Apr 3, 2021)

Sandy Row: PSNI officers injured in south Belfast riot

Loyalist youth kicking off in Sandy Row.

High unemployment; pent up frustration from youth confined indoors for over a year; sense of betrayal over Brexit and the Irish Sea customs border; and possibly being radicalised by a year spent being extemely online. There will be more of this to come I reckon. The 12th this year will likely be mayhem.

On the one hand I don't feel much sympathy to the unionists as it is their own bloody stupidity which got them in this situation, firstly by backing Brexit in the first place without thinking about the obvious consequences for their place in the union, secondly for over-playing their hand in pushing for a harder Brexit and overestimating their importance to the Conservative Party.

However, there is no denying that the Tories used them to get into power in 2017 and then ditched them and stabbed them in the back in 2019. A sense of betrayal and anger is justified.

What bewilders me however is that they still feel so passionately about a union which clearly doesn't give a shit about them and throws them under the bus again and again and again. That's a feature of the union, not a bug.


----------



## Rimbaud (Apr 3, 2021)

In addition to the riot in Sandy Row, there have been 4 nights of rioting in the loyalist Waterside Estate in Derry. 
Appeals for calm after fourth night of loyalist riots in Derry

There were also clashes between youths in Lanark Way, West Belfast. 

Background to this is lots of businesses are failing and shop shelves are half empty with many products unavailable due to issues with the customs border. Also the Tory betrayal of the DUP is a massive humiliation to the loyalist communities, who have built their identity on being proud to be British - yet the British state clearly doesn't care for them as seen by the the Tories stabbed them in the back. 

The atmosphere there is pretty toxic I hear and I'm so glad I don't live there anymore. Apparently my Protestant former managers won't shut up complaining about it, but of course Catholic staff who may be quietly happy that things will eventually just align with the Republic of Ireland have to just keep their mouths shut. 

Chaos in NI, Scotland putting forward indyref2, surge of support for Welsh independence, emergence of a new Northumbrian independence movement and the possibility of mass unrest against the policing bill and slide into authoritarian rule... 

Everything is happening...


----------



## philosophical (Apr 3, 2021)

People who voted leave mostly don’t give a chite, in my opinion because a lot of them are English and age old anti Irish racism is embedded.
Leave voters may feel a few deaths, civil unrest, and ongoing conflict is a price well worth paying for, I dunno, for blue passports.
At least those on the right probably have a degree of honesty about their foreigner hatred, the lexiters on the other hand, with their faux justifications (in my view) are basically cunts using the leave vote as a cover for what I suspect is their deep seated but disguised racist perspective.


----------



## Rimbaud (Apr 4, 2021)

Collapse of confidence in PSNI sparked riots, say loyalists as UDA's Gary Fisher blamed for latest violence in Newtownabbey
					

UDA thugs last night attacked police with petrol bombs and hijacked cars in Newtownabbey in a second night of loyalist violence.




					m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk
				




A couple of cars hijacked and set on fire with petrol bombs and fireworks thrown at police in Newtownabbey last night, supposedly UDA involvement, also a fifth night of unrest from Loyalists in Derry throwing also throwing bottles, petrol bombs and fireworks at police.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Apr 4, 2021)




----------



## teqniq (Apr 5, 2021)




----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 5, 2021)

teqniq said:


>



If it had been a real peace there'd be no need for all the 'peace walls' in Belfast.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Apr 5, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> If it had been a real peace there'd be no need for all the 'peace walls' in Belfast.



I wonder if the NIE will still be committing to the total removal of all lines by 2023?


----------



## philosophical (Apr 5, 2021)

That poster who kept going on about the issue of the Irish border was frequently dismissed by others here, particularly left leaning brexit voters as being wrong.
Nobody who has voted for leave and insist they knew what they were voting for has a solution to how to manage the land border between the EU and the UK.
Taking responsibility can be avoided by shooting messengers...until there is a chite/fan interaction.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 5, 2021)

philosophical said:


> That poster who kept going on about the issue of the Irish border was frequently dismissed by others here, particularly left leaning brexit voters as being wrong.
> Nobody who has voted for leave and insist they knew what they were voting for has a solution to how to manage the land border between the EU and the UK.
> Taking responsibility can be avoided by shooting messengers...until there is a chite/fan interaction.


shite


----------



## philosophical (Apr 5, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> shite



I was using the more polite, and not uncommon, spelling.
Now toddle off and stalk somebody else with your control freakery.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 5, 2021)

philosophical said:


> I was using the more polite, and not uncommon, spelling.
> Now toddle off and stalk somebody else with your control freakery.


If it's an alternate spelling for shite then it's one known only to you. The rest of the world seems to know nothing of it.


----------



## philosophical (Apr 5, 2021)

Fuck me, he speaks for the rest of the whole wide world now!


----------



## likesfish (Apr 5, 2021)

The English are profoundly ignorant about northern/southern Ireland the Basic concept that Ireland is not part of the UK and is a separate country is not fully grasped let alone Northern Ireland is actually part of the UK.
 seen more than one prod told but your Irish. The people pushing the "solution" that Ireland leave the EU and join the UK were serious. I think even the Daily mail struggles to defend Unionism they can stay if they want but they won't exactly be missed if they go.
  The Fact all of Ireland has less population than greater London doesn't help matters


----------



## A380 (Apr 5, 2021)

From the night before last - Loyalist protestor tries to set PSNI Land Rover alight. Fellow rioter lights them up instead. Demonstrates the tried and tested ‘run around in circles whilst flapping ones arms about’ method to deal with being on fire.

Warning, graphic video showing someone on fire.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 5, 2021)

philosophical said:


> Fuck me, he speaks for the rest of the whole wide world now!


Try searching the internet, never know you might just learn something


----------



## philosophical (Apr 5, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Try searching the internet, never know you might just learn something



There are more things in heaven and earth, Pickman's model,
Than are spoken of in your internet.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 5, 2021)

philosophical said:


> There are more things in heaven and earth, Pickman's model,
> Than are spoken of in your internet.


I see you don't have an example of anyone using chite for shite


----------



## philosophical (Apr 5, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> I see you don't have an example of anyone using chite for shite



If you're that interested (which I don't believe you are, you constantly demonstrate a Judas sincerity) I came across the word 'chite' being used on a sporting forum where the poster did not want to be censored for using the words 'shit' or 'shite' both of which were words subject to removal by that forum.
However to pursue the 'Judas sincerity' notion I have introduced, my post was about those who purport to be of the left having a tendency to wash their hand of the responsibility they have assumed by voting leave when it comes to solving the Irish border issue.
You chose to react by attempting some kind of put down over the use of a single word, for no good reason beyond continuing you control freakery in your stalkerish tendency to react to what I post in an irrelevant fashion.


----------



## Serge Forward (Apr 5, 2021)

"Sajt" is another way of spelling shite. It's popularly used in Hungary and is acherly the Hungarian word for "cheese".


----------



## Cerv (Apr 5, 2021)

deliberate misspellings sound like a load of bullchit really


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 5, 2021)

philosophical said:


> If you're that interested (which I don't believe you are, you constantly demonstrate a Judas sincerity) I came across the word 'chite' being used on a sporting forum where the poster did not want to be censored for using the words 'shit' or 'shite' both of which were words subject to removal by that forum.
> However to pursue the 'Judas sincerity' notion I have introduced, my post was about those who purport to be of the left having a tendency to wash their hand of the responsibility they have assumed by voting leave when it comes to solving the Irish border issue.
> You chose to react by attempting some kind of put down over the use of a single word, for no good reason beyond continuing you control freakery in your stalkerish tendency to react to what I post in an irrelevant fashion.


this stalkerish activity which exists only in your fevered imagination


----------



## philosophical (Apr 5, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> this stalkerish activity which exists only in your fevered imagination



Nah. There was no point in your focus on my use of a single word beyond you being a stalker.
Now don't you think you should cease pursuing this, because you're once again behaving like a control freak prick?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 5, 2021)

philosophical said:


> Nah. There was no point in your focus on my use of a single word beyond you being a stalker.
> Now don't you think you should cease pursuing this, because you're once again behaving like a control freak prick?


I didn't mention it the first time you used chite. I don't know how often you've used it but it started to grate. Interesting you lie about it (about how it's not uncommon tho you admit to seeing only one other person use it on a message board). But as you were.


----------



## philosophical (Apr 5, 2021)

....and you're _not_ a control freak stalker??????


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 5, 2021)

philosophical said:


> ....and you're _not_ a control freak stalker??????


I'm as much a control freak stalker as you're an honest poster. Which is to say not at all


----------



## philosophical (Apr 5, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> I'm as much a control freak stalker as you're an honest poster. Which is to say not at all



Must   have   last   word

In harmony with your control freakery.

Fuck knows how the urban75 classroom bully and self appointed alpha human can be so delusional.


----------



## A380 (Apr 6, 2021)

A380 said:


> From the night before last - Loyalist protestor tries to set PSNI Land Rover alight. Fellow rioter lights them up instead. Demonstrates the tried and tested ‘run around in circles whilst flapping ones arms about’ method to deal with being on fire.
> 
> Warning, graphic video showing someone on fire.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Apr 6, 2021)

philosophical said:


> Fuck me, he speaks for the rest of the whole wide world now!



Chite is a rarely used derogatory word regarding Chinese people. Stay classy.


----------



## philosophical (Apr 6, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Chite is a rarely used derogatory word regarding Chinese people. Stay classy.



My wife is Chinese, and my stepson is Chinese, my other son mixed Chinese and European.
I have never heard that term used amongst the many racist attacks we have been subject to.
Rarely used you say, must be very rare.
Are you or yours of any particular identifiable ethnicity?
If you are, do you know every derogatory term that might be used in your direction?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Apr 6, 2021)

philosophical said:


> My wife is Chinese, and my stepson is Chinese, my other son mixed Chinese and European.
> I have never heard that term used amongst the many racist attacks we have been subject to.
> Rarely used you say, must be very rare.
> Are you or yours of any particular identifiable ethnicity?
> If you are, do you know every derogatory term that might be used in your direction?



As a slur against Chinese is the only mention of it on the World Wide Web.
I am of a particular identifiable ethnicity and am not aware of every possible derogatory term that can be used for it. 
Just odd that rather than use a mild swear, shit(e), you have lifted a word from another forum who’s only recorded use is as a racial slur. Perhaps just stick to wishing ill on millions of people cos some voted in a way you disagree with?


----------



## philosophical (Apr 6, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> As a slur against Chinese is the only mention of it on the World Wide Web.
> I am of a particular identifiable ethnicity and am not aware of every possible derogatory term that can be used for it.
> Just odd that rather than use a mild swear, shit(e), you have lifted a word from another forum who’s only recorded use is as a racial slur. Perhaps just stick to wishing ill on millions of people cos some voted in a way you disagree with?



I will certainly stick to wishing ill on people for voting leave with no clue as to how the land border between the EU and the UK is supposed to work after the so called 'leaving'.
I used the word 'chite' as opposed to 'shite' or 'shit' for the reason I have already explained. If that bothers you then too bad.
Your attempt to brand me as an anti Chinese racist is wrong.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Apr 6, 2021)

philosophical said:


> I will certainly stick to wishing ill on people for voting leave with no clue as to how the land border between the EU and the UK is supposed to work after the so called 'leaving'.
> I used the word 'chite' as opposed to 'shite' or 'shit' for the reason I have already explained. If that bothers you then too bad.
> Your attempt to brand me as an anti Chinese racist is wrong.



I have done no such thing you snidey cunt.


----------



## philosophical (Apr 6, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> I have done no such thing you snidey cunt.



Yes you did with your 'stay classy' barb.
You are the cunt in this exchange, throwing out a suggestion that I am an anti Chinese racist for the use of the word 'chite'.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Apr 6, 2021)

philosophical said:


> Yes you did with your 'stay classy' barb.
> You are the cunt in this exchange, throwing out a suggestion that I am an anti Chinese racist for the use of the word 'chite'.



You are full of shit. Try checking the words you use before using them, that way you will avoid using racial slurs and will remain classy. Or just stick to words you already know.


----------



## philosophical (Apr 7, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> You are full of shit. Try checking the words you use before using them, that way you will avoid using racial slurs and will remain classy. Or just stick to words you already know.



You are overflowing with the chite aren’t you? Like the language police yeah? Wanting to promote your version of newspeak in Ingsoc? As far as I am concerned, despite my mild explanation of why I used ‘chite’ you want to up the ante and characterise me as an anti Chinese racist. You attempt to justify reveals what an equivocating tosser you are.
Discuss the impact of the leave vote in Ireland if you want to, or can, because that was what my post was about, or fuck off and put me on ignore


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Apr 7, 2021)

philosophical said:


> You are overflowing with the chite aren’t you? Like the language police yeah? Wanting to promote your version of newspeak in Ingsoc? As far as I am concerned, despite my mild explanation of why I used ‘chite’ you *want to up the ante and characterise me as an anti Chinese racist.* You attempt to justify reveals what an equivocating tosser you are.
> Discuss the impact of the leave vote in Ireland if you want to, or can, because that was what my post was about, or fuck off and put me on ignore




No I fucking well don't, and it doesn't matter how many times you say it, it won't make it so.

Go back to bleating about borders you sad act.


----------



## Brainaddict (Apr 7, 2021)

Anyway, back to Northern Ireland. Looking messy there. Does UK govt have any plan at all to address it or are they just going to ignore and hope it goes away?


----------



## philosophical (Apr 7, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> No I fucking well don't, and it doesn't matter how many times you say it, it won't make it so.
> 
> Go back to bleating about borders you sad act.



Yes you fucking well do with your ‘stay classy’ barb. Trying to twist what I wrote, even after I explained my intention to my control freak stalker, into making me look like an anti Chinese racist.
What was that about being classy? How classy are you trying to divert things down the route of me being an anti Chinese racist?
Want to explain that to my family you tosser?
Now put me on ignore, and fuck off and brand other individuals as racists as that’s how you roll.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Apr 7, 2021)

philosophical said:


> Yes you fucking well do with your ‘stay classy’ barb. Trying to twist what I wrote, even after I explained my intention to my control freak stalker, into making me look like an anti Chinese racist.
> What was that about being classy? How classy are you trying to divert things down the route of me being an anti Chinese racist?
> Want to explain that to my family you tosser?
> Now put me on ignore, and fuck off and brand other individuals as racists as that’s how you roll.




Is that you now changed your record from "whah, whah borders" to "anti-Chinese racist"? Fucking berk.


----------



## likesfish (Apr 7, 2021)

Brainaddict said:


> Anyway, back to Northern Ireland. Looking messy there. Does UK govt have any plan at all to address it or are they just going to ignore and hope it goes away?


 that's the traditional approach . Boris has a solid majority so the DUP are irrelevant


----------



## ska invita (Apr 7, 2021)

Brainaddict said:


> just going to ignore and hope it goes away?


Where did you hear that? This strategy was meant to be classified.


----------



## stdP (Apr 7, 2021)

likesfish said:


> that's the traditional approach . Boris has a solid majority so the DUP are irrelevant



I'm not sure the current shower of Rasputinian jizz-buckets give a rancid shit about anything without a blue rosette or a backhander on it. I highly suspect that the thinking amongst at least some of the cabinet is that NI, Scotland and Wales should all just fuck off and do one so that England can finally be rid of all those foreigners once and for all.


----------



## Raheem (Apr 7, 2021)

Brainaddict said:


> Anyway, back to Northern Ireland. Looking messy there. Does UK govt have any plan at all to address it or are they just going to ignore and hope it goes away?


Think it may be a case of ignoring it and hoping it gets worse and worse.


----------



## philosophical (Apr 7, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Is that you now changed your record from "whah, whah borders" to "anti-Chinese racist"? Fucking berk.


It was you that introduced the record that plays 'you're an anti Chinese racist'. Not me.
Now fuck off.


----------



## Brainaddict (Apr 7, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Think it may be a case of ignoring it and hoping it gets worse and worse.


Why do you say that? What's in it for them to let it get worse? You think they're aching to send the army back in or something?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Apr 7, 2021)

philosophical said:


> It was you that introduced the record that plays 'you're an anti Chinese racist. Not me.
> Now fuck off.



Introduced and used six times by you, once by me, after you had stated it five times. So why don't you fuck off and come back with some more words you've read on some weird part of the internet that you think sounds smart but are in fact racial slurs, you fucking bellend.


----------



## Raheem (Apr 7, 2021)

Brainaddict said:


> Why do you say that? What's in it for them to let it get worse? You think they're aching to send the army back in or something?


Think it may be a higher priority for them to avoid implementing the NI protocol.


----------



## philosophical (Apr 7, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Introduced and used six times by you, once by me, after you had stated it five times. So why don't you fuck off and come back with some more words you've read on some weird part of the internet that you think sounds smart but are in fact racial slurs, you fucking bellend.



You have no clue as to what words I think sound smart.
Arrogant prick throwing around accusations of anti Chinese racism to sidetrack this thread. You’re demonstrating expertise in throwing out slurs.
 Whose puppet are you?


----------



## Brainaddict (Apr 7, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Think it may be a higher priority for them to avoid implementing the NI protocol.


Ah, I get you. Dangerous game with EU trade as well as NI peace though. But I suppose most of the risks don't accrue to Johnson or his cabinet directly so what does it matter. Nothing matters really as long as Johnson can feel big.


----------



## MrSki (Apr 7, 2021)

Brainaddict said:


> Ah, I get you. Dangerous game with EU trade as well as NI peace though. But I suppose most of the risks don't accrue to Johnson or his cabinet directly so what does it matter. Nothing matters really as long as Johnson can feel big.


And dressing up. He likes his pretending & wearing high viz & hard hats. Yesterday he was being a scientist.


----------



## stdP (Apr 7, 2021)

Brainaddict said:


> Ah, I get you. Dangerous game with EU trade as well as NI peace though. But I suppose most of the risks don't accrue to Johnson or his cabinet directly so what does it matter. Nothing matters really as long as Johnson can feel big.



Exactly, this is Boris "Brinksmanship" Johnson we're talking about here. If it's not a dangerous game for him personally, it's not dangerous full stop. If he's seen by the rabid right to be rolling back one millimetre on brexit _or_ acceding to EU demands, he'll be disappointing his base, and that's the only thing about this affair he sees as a risk.


----------



## hitmouse (Apr 7, 2021)

I see it's been kicking off in Loyalist communities in NI, this looks like a thread with a lot of recent posts in, I'm sure I'll learn a lot about the situation there from reading them...


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 7, 2021)

MrSki said:


> And dressing up. He likes his pretending & wearing high viz & hard hats. Yesterday he was being a scientist.


Maybe tomorrow he could be put up against a wall and play at being the emperor of mexico


----------



## Rimbaud (Apr 7, 2021)

Brainaddict said:


> Anyway, back to Northern Ireland. Looking messy there. Does UK govt have any plan at all to address it or are they just going to ignore and hope it goes away?



Nope, no plan at all. 

I wonder if it is a consequence of British parties not standing in NI that there is no incentive for them to care about what happens there, and no knowledge of it within their ranks. 

The former Minister for Northern Ireland was unaware upon taking the job that people voted on sectarian lines and that DUP would not bother to campaign on Falls Road as Sinn Fein wouldn't bother to campaign in the Shankill (maybe "wouldn't dare" is more accurate than wouldn't bother"). 

When the one person in Westminster whose job it is to know Northern Ireland knows less upon taking the role than you'd garner from a few minutes on Wikipedia, you can see how high Northern Ireland is on their priority list. 

If you think that the population of Northern Ireland is only about 2/3 of that of Greater Manchester, and then imagine that the same degree of rioting, car hijackings and torchings, and petrol bombs thrown at police were all concentrated in Manchester over a few days, it would be dominating national media for weeks if not months.


----------



## ska invita (Apr 7, 2021)

Rimbaud said:


> Nope, no plan at all.


It must've come up in their private meetings what they plan to do. My guess is they will let the situation deteriorate and blame the EU. As I've said before, if enough of a head of steam builds up the Tories can then say they refuse to implement the border in the name of peace, and there's not a lot the EU can do about it other than sanction. Which they probably will do. And the Tories can blame the EU again. 
Not sure if that counts like a plan, but thats what it looks like is going to happen.
More firebombs then.


----------



## stdP (Apr 7, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Not sure if that counts like a plan, but thats what it looks like is going to happen.



To invoke the old classic:

If you have the facts on your side, bang on the facts.
If you have the law on your side, bang on the law.
If you have neither on your side, bang on the table.


----------



## hitmouse (Apr 7, 2021)

Can anyone more knowledgeable than recommend a good source for actual analysis of what's been going on these past few weeks?


----------



## Rimbaud (Apr 7, 2021)

ska invita said:


> It must've come up in their private meetings what they plan to do. My guess is they will let the decision deteriorate and blame the EU. As I've said before, if enough of a head of steam builds up the Tories can then say they refuse to implement the border in the name of peace, and there's not a lot the EU can do about it other than sanction. Which they probably will do. And the Tories can blame the EU again.
> Not sure if that counts like a plan, but thats what it looks like is going to happen.
> More firebombs then.



If that is the plan, it is a very bad plan and could kick-start the troubles. 

If they refuse to implement the Irish sea customs border, then that means a hard border between NI and the Republic of Ireland, which is almost certain to prompt the resumption of armed struggle from the Republican side. 

Heightening sectarian tensions and provoking the loyalists in order to use the chaos as an excuse to do something which will start armed struggle from the nationalist side is a truly despicable plan, but I wouldn't put it past Boris.


----------



## ska invita (Apr 7, 2021)

Rimbaud said:


> If they refuse to implement the Irish sea customs border, then that means a hard border between NI and the Republic of Ireland, which is almost certain to prompt the resumption of armed struggle from the Republican side.


No, because neither the UK nor the EU will implement a land border between the two states - Good Friday agreement makes that certain.
Its cake and eat it- Johnson's correctly calculating definitely no land border, and fudge the sea border - step back from it if theres enough local "resistance". Yes that equals breaking the NI Protocol but they clearly always wanted to do that. They even tried to write the right to do so into law.
What will be the Tories punishment? EU sanctions. Eventually. To some degree


----------



## Rimbaud (Apr 7, 2021)

ska invita said:


> No, because neither the UK nor the EU will implement a land border between the two states - Good Friday agreement makes that certain.
> Its cake and eat it- Johnson's correctly calculating definitely no land border, and fudge the sea border - step back from it if theres enough local "resistance". Yes that equals breaking the NI Protocol but they clearly always wanted to do that. They even tried to write the right to do so into law.
> What will be the Tories punishment? EU sanctions. Eventually. To some degree



But surely they have to - if there is neither a hard border around Northern Ireland nor a customs border in the Irish Sea, then surely that means there are essentially no customs checks between the EU and the UK so all the trade agreements are effectively void?


----------



## ska invita (Apr 7, 2021)

Rimbaud said:


> But surely they have to - if there is neither a hard border around Northern Ireland nor a customs border in the Irish Sea, then surely that means there are essentially no customs checks between the EU and the UK so all the trade agreements are effectively void?


Who would actually do it? Who would implement the border? Who would put up the infrastructure?
No one.
Thats why they had to agree to put the border in the sea.


----------



## Rimbaud (Apr 7, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Who would actually do it? Who would implement the border? Who would put up the infrastructure?
> No one.
> Thats why they had to agree to put the border in the sea.



But the border has a function right? If they're leaving the EU they can't have no border between themselves and the EU. 

I don't know the minutiae of the trade agreements, but surely they require a border to enforce import taxes and import regulations and so on? 

Nobody would put up a hard border so the alternative was an Irish Sea customs border. But surely its a choice between hard border or customs border, or staying in the single market? What is the fourth option?


----------



## Raheem (Apr 7, 2021)

Rimbaud said:


> What is the fourth option?


Delaying the inevitable until you're not prime minister any more?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 7, 2021)

Rimbaud said:


> But the border has a function right? If they're leaving the EU they can't have no border between themselves and the EU.
> 
> I don't know the minutiae of the trade agreements, but surely they require a border to enforce import taxes and import regulations and so on?
> 
> Nobody would put up a hard border so the alternative was an Irish Sea customs border. But surely its a choice between hard border or customs border, or staying in the single market? What is the fourth option?


Taking the United Kingdom and its overseas territories off the surface of the earth, launching the country into space and becoming galactic pirates


----------



## philosophical (Apr 7, 2021)

A realistic customs union between the UK and the EU might well negate the need for anybody to have a border.


----------



## ska invita (Apr 7, 2021)

Rimbaud said:


> But the border has a function right? If they're leaving the EU they can't have no border between themselves and the EU.
> 
> I don't know the minutiae of the trade agreements, but surely they require a border to enforce import taxes and import regulations and so on?
> 
> Nobody would put up a hard border so the alternative was an Irish Sea customs border. But surely its a choice between hard border or customs border, or staying in the single market? What is the fourth option?


There's only a border control if at least one of the two states chooses to enforce it. There are many borders on a map between countries where you would never know there was one, because neither side has an interest in imposing.

The agreed border between the EU and the UK on the UK's west coast is in the sea between Wales and N Ireland. That is the only option

But if Westminster refuses to enforce it what can the EU do about it? Fuck all apart from impose sanctions. The EU cant build their own border on the island of Ireland as the only place to do that would break the GF agreement. They cant do it in N Ireland as its part of the UK.


----------



## bimble (Apr 7, 2021)

philosophical said:


> A realistic customs union between the UK and the EU might well negate the need for anybody to have a border.


I think that you might be the only person who was monomaniacally totally right about brexit the whole time. It’s nice that you put the above in the future tense, i like that.


----------



## ska invita (Apr 7, 2021)

feel for the bus driver here


----------



## N_igma (Apr 7, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Can anyone more knowledgeable than recommend a good source for actual analysis of what's been going on these past few weeks?



This is a good blogging site to keep you up to date with all the goings on in NI Slugger O'Toole

Essentially this is the culmination of months of loyalists dissatisfaction over the NI Protocol. The border in the Irish Sea and being treated as somehow different (we are) from the rest of the UK has really inflamed tensions here. Signs have been going up all over Unionist towns informing people of their objection to the Irish Sea border, some with menacing and violent undertones. The names and addresses of various politicians including Michael Gove and Leo Varadkar have been written on walls in loyalist areas. Workers at the ports have also been threatened.

For a few months that was the situation, anger which was contained yet simmering. The trigger for this violence was the decision by the PPS not to prosecute anyone in SF for an apparent breach of Covid-19 restrictions at the funeral of an ex-IRA man last June. The immediate accusation being that there’s a two tiered policing system that favours SF over everyone else (fuck imagine saying that 30 years ago). This led to numerous groups saying all bets are off re:bonfires and marches this summer and has led to protests and riots we are seeing now.

Again, the class aspect is always there. This is happening in some of the most deprived areas in NI. White working-class Protestant boys are bottom of the list in terms of educational attainment. In the past they would’ve got jobs in the shipping industry and other industrial areas but these jobs aren’t there any more. They have fallen behind and they don’t have a political voice representing them.

The leaders of the Unionist parties are all middle class church goers who are very quick to stir up tensions but are even quicker washing their hands of these people when things get violent. A new generation of children with criminal records that’ll hang over them for the rest of their lives.

More rioting tonight with a bus hijacked and set on fire. It’s going to be a long summer of discontent.


----------



## Rimbaud (Apr 7, 2021)

ska invita said:


> feel for the bus driver here




Any word if the bus driver is alright?


----------



## ska invita (Apr 7, 2021)

Rimbaud said:


> Any word if the bus driver is alright?


supposedly yes, no injuries


----------



## N_igma (Apr 7, 2021)

Rimbaud said:


> Any word if the bus driver is alright?



He’s ok. 9 times out of 10 they let everyone off then petrol bomb it.


----------



## Rimbaud (Apr 8, 2021)

A mate in Belfast sent me this which is apparently being passed on in loyalist group chats/mass texting or something like that. 

Could get much worse if they are planning to go through West Belfast as it'll go from Loyalists rioting against police to sectarian communal violence. 



Also last night they broke through the peace walls seperating Falls and Shankill:


----------



## ska invita (Apr 8, 2021)

Rimbaud said:


> View attachment 262220


Hard to know how much to trust that Calling of Arms thing, but if its legit, and being taken as legit, interesting that its directly naming the Irish Protocol as the motivating issue. I guess we'll see tomorrow.


----------



## Badgers (Apr 8, 2021)

#goingwellhere


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 8, 2021)

Badgers said:


> #goingwellhere


I wonder how many of them will earn their strips


----------



## editor (Apr 8, 2021)

N_igma said:


> He’s ok. 9 times out of 10 they let everyone off then petrol bomb it.


Oh, how fucking considerate.

Not so sure anyone is going to be "ok" after having some pathetic cunt hurl a firebomb at you and endanger your life when you're just doing your job. That kind of random violent shit can cause all sort of  long term health problems.


----------



## bimble (Apr 8, 2021)

Why did the DUP support brexit??


----------



## likesfish (Apr 8, 2021)

Its NI they probably have training on what to do in the event of a bus hijacking. Brexitshiteers won't care. The UK government didn't really care overly much when the "war" was on there wasn't a great conspiracy laid down from Whitehall where spooks were told to KIll Pat Finucane for example.
  Mr Douglas Hogg, the then agricultural minister in the Conservative government in Britain, stated that "some solicitors in Northern Ireland were sympathetic to the IRA. Never crossed his so-called mind that saying something like that would be a death sentence because that's not how things work   DUP supports Brexit because it cuts ties with the Irish republic  not as final as say a mile deep flaming trench but in these woke times what can you do?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Apr 8, 2021)

bimble said:


> Why did the DUP support brexit??



Money


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 8, 2021)

bimble said:


> Why did the DUP support brexit??


it seemed like a good idea at the time


----------



## Rimbaud (Apr 8, 2021)

bimble said:


> Why did the DUP support brexit??



Because Sinn Fein opposed it. Tribalism trumps all.


----------



## steveo87 (Apr 8, 2021)

bimble said:


> Why did the DUP support brexit??


Also, they're cunts.


----------



## bimble (Apr 8, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Money


You really think that they supported leave for that billion quid ? 
That seems far fetched but it does seem mad, as in i can’t figure out how they thought brexit would be a good idea, for their precious union. Unless they thought it’d make reunification less likely.


----------



## Raheem (Apr 8, 2021)

Like a lot of leavers, they thought it was a brilliant thing to campaign for, but didn't expect to win.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Apr 8, 2021)

bimble said:


> You really think that they supported leave for that billion quid ?
> That seems far fetched but it does seem mad, as in i can’t figure out how they thought brexit would be a good idea, for their precious union. Unless they thought it’d make reunification less likely.


They probably thought the only borders arising from it would be between North and South. They obviously hadn't realised the lengths Johnson would go to to retain his air of stupidity.


----------



## MrSki (Apr 8, 2021)




----------



## krtek a houby (Apr 8, 2021)

Saul Goodman said:


> They probably thought the only borders arising from it would be between North and South. They obviously hadn't realised the lengths Johnson would go to to retain his air of stupidity.



Let's hope that air supply runs out, soon


----------



## editor (Apr 8, 2021)

likesfish said:


> Its NI they probably have training on what to do in the event of a bus hijacking.


Not sure how any amount of training is going to make drivers less terrified of a random twat hurling a firebomb at them, or decrease the chance of physical/mental health problems.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Apr 8, 2021)

editor said:


> Not sure how any amount of training is going to make drivers less terrified of a random twat hurling a firebomb at them, or decrease the chance of physical/mental health problems.


Soldiers can suffer from PTSD but bus drivers can't, because bus drivers have special training, if they live in the right area.


----------



## Brainaddict (Apr 8, 2021)

MrSki said:


>



I think we need to design some kind of virtual stocks for public figures who are wrong and don't apologise or admit it. They just pollute the world with nonsense and we're not meant to notice.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 8, 2021)

bimble said:


> You really think that they supported leave for that billion quid ?
> That seems far fetched but it does seem mad, as in i can’t figure out how they thought brexit would be a good idea, for their precious union. Unless they thought it’d make reunification less likely.


it does seem mad as that came a year after the referendum. the billion pounds was for supporting theresa may's government after the 2017 election.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 8, 2021)

Brainaddict said:


> I think we need to design some kind of virtual stocks for public figures who are wrong and don't apologise or admit it. They just pollute the world with nonsense and we're not meant to notice.


real ones would be more of a deterrent


----------



## Brainaddict (Apr 8, 2021)

I'm guessing the DUP did think there would be a stronger border between north and south, and didn't count on the EU strongly prioritising the good friday agreement. Which shows how thick they are, but I don't think that comes as news...


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 8, 2021)

Brainaddict said:


> I'm guessing the DUP did think there would be a border between north and south, and didn't count on the EU strongly prioritising the good friday agreement. Which shows how thick they are, but I don't think that comes as news...


being as there's been a border for almost 100 years - including all the way through the uk's membership of the european union - it was always a fair assumption there'd be a border after the uk left

the dup just didn't count on there being one in the sea


----------



## Ax^ (Apr 8, 2021)

bimble said:


> Why did the DUP support brexit??



because someone wrapped it in a union jack


----------



## hitmouse (Apr 8, 2021)

Rimbaud said:


> A mate in Belfast sent me this which is apparently being passed on in loyalist group chats/mass texting or something like that.
> 
> Could get much worse if they are planning to go through West Belfast as it'll go from Loyalists rioting against police to sectarian communal violence.
> 
> View attachment 262220


I dunno what WATP DPASS VTOT RSD means, but I'm guessing from context it's nothing good? (I thought WATP was that Cardi B/Megan song that made Ben Shapiro cry and RSD is what's going to fuck up our wrists from typing too much, but perhaps not).

(Apparently the actual answer is "We are the people, Donegal Pass, Village Team on Tour, Roden street defenders." Although that doesn't really make things much clearer to me as a non-Belfaster.)


bimble said:


> Why did the DUP support brexit??


Because of their long-held principled commitment to home rule and opposition to the idea that anyone should be subjected to rule from an unaccountable super-state?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Apr 8, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Because of their long-held principled commitment to home rule and opposition to the idea that anyone should be subjected to rule from an unaccountable super-state?



Boy are they going to be pissed when they realise they are part of Great Britain.


----------



## ska invita (Apr 8, 2021)

bimble said:


> Why did the DUP support brexit??


My memory of it is:
Under May's Tories the prevailing logic was Brexit would include a Customs Union.
The Tories did a coup against anyone with this position and created a Hard Brexit Johnson led Tory party (effectively backed by the media and majority electorate)

At this point DUP might've been worried but Johnson lied and reassured with words to the effect that No British Prime Minister could countenance separating the union with borders (what was the exact quote, anyone remember?), and the classic  "If somebody asks you to [ fill in any customs declarations ], tell them to ring up the prime minister and I will direct them to throw that form in the bin."
So DUP may have felt marginally reassured at this point.

However Johnson signed the NI protocol which put a border in the sea - the only possible outcome with no customs union. At this point the DUP were far from happy, but the Tories continued to bluster with their immediate overt attempts to break the Protocol.

So the DUP were outmaneuvered by the ERG & Kippers, and ultimately naive in their Loyalism.
TBF it didnt have to get to this point, other Brexits were on the table.


----------



## ska invita (Apr 8, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Apparently the actual answer is "We are the people, Donegal Pass, Village Team on Tour, Roden street defenders." Although that doesn't really make things much clearer to me as a non-Belfaster.


I think the gist is clear though


----------



## andysays (Apr 8, 2021)

ska invita said:


> My memory of it is:
> Under May's Tories the prevailing logic was Brexit would include a Customs Union.
> The Tories did a coup against anyone with this position and created a Hard Brexit Johnson led Tory party (effectively backed by the media and majority electorate)
> 
> ...


This is all after the event though.

The question should be, whatever happened since, did the DUP actually support a vote for Leave in the referendum and for what reason?


----------



## hitmouse (Apr 8, 2021)

ska invita said:


> I think the gist is clear though


Yeah, looking up VTOT I found this, and I think I can grasp the message being communicated there:


Spoiler: it's not good






It does sound like this might be a fucking grim weekend ahead.


----------



## likesfish (Apr 8, 2021)

editor said:


> Not sure how any amount of training is going to make drivers less terrified of a random twat hurling a firebomb at them, or decrease the chance of physical/mental health problems.


The random twat gets on tells you the bus is getting hijacked you get off. Bus drivers don't get killed unlike taxi drivers.
  They have been doing this shit for forty years it's part of cost of doing business.😡


----------



## vanya (Apr 8, 2021)

N_igma said:


> Again, the class aspect is always there. This is happening in some of the most deprived areas in NI. White working-class Protestant boys are bottom of the list in terms of educational attainment. In the past they would’ve got jobs in the shipping industry and other industrial areas but these jobs aren’t there any more. They have fallen behind and they don’t have a political voice representing them.
> 
> The leaders of the Unionist parties are all middle class church goers who are very quick to stir up tensions but are even quicker washing their hands of these people when things get violent. A new generation of children with criminal records that’ll hang over them for the rest of their lives.



What about the Progressive Unionist Party? Don't they provide a voice for young working class loyalists?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 8, 2021)

vanya said:


> What about the Progressive Unionist Party? Don't they provide a voice for young working class loyalists?


not a very loud voice


----------



## N_igma (Apr 8, 2021)

editor said:


> Oh, how fucking considerate.
> 
> Not so sure anyone is going to be "ok" after having some pathetic cunt hurl a firebomb at you and endanger your life when you're just doing your job. That kind of random violent shit can cause all sort of  long term health problems.



I agree 100%. I meant physically he is ok but he has said he needs time off ‘to get himself straight’. Bus drivers in Belfast are now striking saying they won’t travel after 6pm which is a great move in my eyes.

It is interesting though how violence can be so internalised and normalised that it diminishes its impact. Someone left a hoax bomb in my village the other week. My girlfriend, who is from the Republic, was really worried about it, whereas when I first heard about it my gut reaction was ‘don’t worry it’s probably just a hoax’. Most people would be horrified to hear about a potential bomb in their local area but I wasn’t because stuff like that happens way more regularly here than other places in Ireland and the UK.



bimble said:


> Why did the DUP support brexit??



The DUP have a very ‘little Englander’ approach to the EU and Europe. There’s a lot of navel gazing and harkening back to the days of Empire, Rule Britannia and all that shite. So the idea of taking back control from Europe, controlling immigration etc was a no brainer for them. Sammy Wilson the MP for East Antrim, was talking to a local about Brexit to one of his constituents asking for reasons and the local said ‘we can get the ethnics out’ and Sammy was standing there nodding his head saying ‘yes and you are absolutely right’. So yes there’s very much the little Englander mentality with them.

As for money, the £1 Billion dividend happened after the referendum and was unforeseen by anyone and they still stabbed May in the back anyway. The DUP campaigned for Brexit from the start and there was a lot of dark money floating about. Including a £435,000 payment to take out an ad in the Metro newspaper. Why did a NI Unionist party take out a Brexit ad in a newspaper read by people sitting on trains and busses in England? Lots of dodgy shit going on behind the scenes with that. 

Their biggest mistake, however, was actually believing a single word coming out of Boris Johnson’s mouth. When he got on stage and said that NI wouldn’t be treated any different than the rest of the UK the DUP were in a party mood. They genuinely believed that there would be customs points on the border with the Republic of Ireland. Some of the lower dregs of loyalism even called for a wall to be built around the border. Then they were stabbed in the back and are currently blaming everyone - the Irish government, the EU, Boris, the Conservative Party, literally everyone but themselves for the mess they have helped to create. Least they know now to never trust a Tory.


----------



## bimble (Apr 8, 2021)

Oh yeah! The DUP sponsored brexit ads mystery.. That was a weird episode of the wtf is actually going on brexit corruption show, I’d completely forgot in the mountain of endless stuff since but that was a good one.


----------



## N_igma (Apr 8, 2021)

vanya said:


> What about the Progressive Unionist Party? Don't they provide a voice for young working class loyalists?



They have haemorrhaged votes in recent elections. Ever since the death really of David Ervine, who by all accounts was a decent man who wanted to move past the troubles and had a class conscious outlook on politics. The current leadership are very much in the mould of being a voice for the UVF and not representing working class Protestants. It is also a very Belfast-centric party which doesn’t do well for working class loyalists elsewhere.

The DUP were very good at absorbing and creating a ‘Big Tent’ for people of the Unionist persuasion. Middle class Protestants, farmers, working class loyalists etc all mostly vote for them. That might be changing though at the next election. Recent opinion polls have shown an increase in support for the TUV which is basically the DUP on steroids. Don’t like Sinn Féin, refuse to talk to them etc. All the calls I’ve seen on social media etc from working class people is to vote for them.

Yet their leader is a lawyer, socially conservative Christian who probably looks down his nose at these lesser beings. There is no voice for them and it’s only going to get worse in my opinion.


----------



## Rimbaud (Apr 8, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Boy are they going to be pissed when they realise they are part of Great Britain.



Actually they aren't part of Great Britain.

They are part of "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland."

Britain is the physical island which Scotland, Wales and England are located on, Great Britain includes like, the Hebrides and the Isle of Wight and so on, but it doesn't include the Isle of Ireland.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 8, 2021)

Rimbaud said:


> Actually they aren't part of Great Britain.
> 
> They are part of "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland."
> 
> Britain is the physical island which Scotland Wales and England on, Great Britain includes like, the Hebrides and the Isle of Wight and so on, but it doesn't include the Isle of Ireland.


top pedantry


----------



## Artaxerxes (Apr 8, 2021)

Rimbaud said:


> Actually they aren't part of Great Britain.
> 
> They are part of "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland."
> 
> Britain is the physical island which Scotland Wales and England on, Great Britain includes like, the Hebrides and the Isle of Wight and so on, but it doesn't include the Isle of Ireland.



Man that's going to piss them off even more.


----------



## Ax^ (Apr 8, 2021)

Rimbaud said:


> Actually they aren't part of Great Britain.
> 
> They are part of "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland."
> 
> Britain is the physical island which Scotland, Wales and England are located on, Great Britain includes like, the Hebrides and the Isle of Wight and so on, but it doesn't include the Isle of Ireland.



make mental note of that for next time I'm in Antrim


----------



## hitmouse (Apr 8, 2021)

N_igma said:


> They have haemorrhaged votes in recent elections. Ever since the death really of David Ervine, who by all accounts was a decent man who wanted to move past the troubles and had a class conscious outlook on politics. The current leadership are very much in the mould of being a voice for the UVF and not representing working class Protestants. It is also a very Belfast-centric party which doesn’t do well for working class loyalists elsewhere.
> 
> The DUP were very good at absorbing and creating a ‘Big Tent’ for people of the Unionist persuasion. Middle class Protestants, farmers, working class loyalists etc all mostly vote for them. That might be changing though at the next election. Recent opinion polls have shown an increase in support for the TUV which is basically the DUP on steroids. Don’t like Sinn Féin, refuse to talk to them etc. All the calls I’ve seen on social media etc from working class people is to vote for them.
> 
> Yet their leader is a lawyer, socially conservative Christian who probably looks down his nose at these lesser beings. There is no voice for them and it’s only going to get worse in my opinion.


Thanks for these posts, they're really helpful. I looked up the bus drivers stuff, having not seen anything about it elsewhere, and found this: Northern Ireland riots: Belfast Bus drivers stage protest after petrol-bombing of Metro in Shankill disorder and warn of service curfew

So without wanting to be too Pollyanna-ish, it is nice to see some signs of a non-sectarian class-based response (or at least what looks like one from here).


----------



## ska invita (Apr 8, 2021)

N_igma said:


> They genuinely believed that there would be customs points on the border with the Republic of Ireland.


I dont doubt you but is there any evidence for that?


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Apr 8, 2021)

likesfish said:


> They have been doing this shit for forty years it's part of cost of doing business.😡



i understand that during the troubles, if a bus got used as a road-block, then it was usually possible for the management to agree to swap it for one of their oldest / most shagged out buses


----------



## The39thStep (Apr 8, 2021)

South Belfast Ulster Political Research Group is  first loyalist group to call for an end to unrest


----------



## N_igma (Apr 8, 2021)

ska invita said:


> I dont doubt you but is there any evidence for that?



The official line was that they wanted some sort of technology driven border that would check lorries and trucks as they passed through but behind the scenes there was many who wanted a hard border.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 8, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> South Belfast Ulster Political Research Group is  first loyalist group to call for an end to unrest
> 
> View attachment 262305
> 
> View attachment 262306


this sounds doomed to fail


----------



## The39thStep (Apr 8, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> this sounds doomed to fail


We will have to see but I get the sense that there there is more than one loyalist voice, that anonymous Call to Arms thing on Whats app has already been called out by some .


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 8, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> We will have to see but I get the sense that there there is more than one loyalist voice, that anonymous Call to Arms thing on Whats app has already been called out by some .


the anonymous one was 'call of arms'.


----------



## The39thStep (Apr 8, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> the anonymous one was 'call of arms'.


That's the one I meant thanks.


----------



## Ax^ (Apr 8, 2021)

bimble said:


> Why did the DUP support brexit??




was just not the DUP in north ireland who voted for Brexit also had a labour peer premoting it







you think some of these types hoped the hard brexit would of lead to a hard  wall between ireland and the north 

and not a border based on the sea


----------



## krtek a houby (Apr 8, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> was just not the DUP in north ireland who voted for Brexit also had a labour peer premoting it
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Between Ireland and the north?


----------



## steveo87 (Apr 8, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> was just not the DUP in north ireland who voted for Brexit also had a labour peer premoting it
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Would you look at that, a lying Blairite....


----------



## Ax^ (Apr 8, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Between Ireland and the north?



check points on the border rather than ports would of worked quite a lot worse


----------



## krtek a houby (Apr 8, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> check points on the border rather than ports would of worked quite a lot worse


 
Ok. Ireland is the Republic of Ireland and "the north", though.


----------



## David Clapson (Apr 8, 2021)

These riots are too fucking late. The time for them was before the referendum. I really thought it would be a much bigger issue and was looking forward to The Irish Question being the secret to holding the Union together by keeping us in the EU. The irony would have been delicious. But now we have Brexit AND a return to violence...the worst of both worlds. The ERG and the right wing press should all be forced to swap places with the PSNI on the barricades.


----------



## Yossarian (Apr 8, 2021)

Not sure if this was deliberate or if somebody's going to get told off tomorrow.


----------



## A380 (Apr 9, 2021)

Rimbaud said:


> Actually they aren't part of Great Britain.
> 
> They are part of "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland."
> 
> Britain is the physical island which Scotland, Wales and England are located on, Great Britain includes like, the Hebrides and the Isle of Wight and so on, but it doesn't include the Isle of Ireland.


It’s really easy to remember:


Great Britain consists of England and two other countries that, quite justifiably, hate us.
The United Kingdom  consists of England and three other countries that, quite justifiably, hate us.
The British Isles consist of England, four other countries and a crown dependency that, quite justifiably, hate us.


----------



## krtek a houby (Apr 9, 2021)

The Irish Isles


----------



## Shechemite (Apr 9, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> The Irish Isles



 Good for a summer holiday with the kids?


----------



## Shechemite (Apr 9, 2021)

"the British Isles"
					

An Bunachar Náisiúnta Téarmaíochta don Ghaeilge · The National Terminology Database for Irish




					www.tearma.ie
				




‘The British isles’ comes from late antique cartography. It’s no more a product of English imperialism than ‘Syria-Palestine’ is.


----------



## krtek a houby (Apr 9, 2021)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Good for a summer holiday with the kids?



Long as the surname isn't Mountbatten


----------



## Shechemite (Apr 9, 2021)

I don’t even own a kilt


----------



## rubbershoes (Apr 9, 2021)

bimble said:


> Why did the DUP support brexit??



Possibly they thought it would harden the border with the south


----------



## teqniq (Apr 9, 2021)




----------



## Border Reiver (Apr 9, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Boy are they going to be pissed when they realise they are part of Great Britain.


No part of the island of Ireland is part of Great Britain, geographically or politically. 

Geographically Great Britain is just all parts of the main island that can be reached over land. Politically it is Scotland, England, and Wales.


----------



## Border Reiver (Apr 9, 2021)

Rimbaud said:


> Actually they aren't part of Great Britain.
> 
> They are part of "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland."
> 
> Britain is the physical island which Scotland, Wales and England are located on, Great Britain includes like, the Hebrides and the Isle of Wight and so on, but it doesn't include the Isle of Ireland.



Political Great Britain differs from geographic Great Britain. The Western Isles, Shetland, Orkney, IOW, Ynys Môn, the Scilly Isles and even arguably Portsmouth😁 are not geographically on Great Britain.


----------



## The39thStep (Apr 9, 2021)

Thought this was quite a succinct and useful  summary


----------



## ska invita (Apr 9, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Thought this was quite a succinct and useful  summary



very good 
whats missing is that the irish sea border is currently not even being fully implemented, thats still to come, in three months IIRC on current timetable. Sounds like an election around 6 months after that!


----------



## The39thStep (Apr 9, 2021)

ska invita said:


> very good
> whats missing is that the irish sea border is currently not even being fully implemented, thats still to come, in three months IIRC on current timetable. Sounds like an election around 6 months after that!


Some very stark figures in there on % of GDP and % population.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 9, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> Not sure if this was deliberate or if somebody's going to get told off tomorrow.
> 
> View attachment 262336



The Sky News press review at 10.30 pm yesterday featured that front page, but someone woke up to this classic fuck up, and changed the front page in time for the 11.30 pm review.

.


----------



## marty21 (Apr 9, 2021)

Well, that escalated quickly (not) , all kicking off, unsurprisingly.

I remember arguing with Brexiters during and after the referendum that Brexit could cause the break up of the union and there were many who felt it was an acceptable price to pay for Brexit. It's a bizarre position to take , particularly when they appear to be rather fond of the Union Jack.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 9, 2021)

Border Reiver said:


> No part of the island of Ireland is part of Great Britain, geographically or politically.
> 
> Geographically Great Britain is just all parts of the main island that can be reached over land. Politically it is Scotland, England, and Wales.


Yes, we've been over this ground many times in the past.
There's a very good reason why the full title of the British state is The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
Although confusions abound and some are perpetuated by the state itself:


----------



## Ax^ (Apr 9, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Ok. Ireland is the Republic of Ireland and "the north", though.


 
between the free state/the Republic/ Éireann and and 6 counties of Ulster/Tuaisceart  Éireann


whatever make ya happy


----------



## krtek a houby (Apr 9, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> between the free state/the Republic/ Éireann and and 6 counties of Ulster/Tuaisceart  Éireann
> 
> 
> whatever make ya happy



32 county socialist Republic will be a start, ta


----------



## Badgers (Apr 9, 2021)

Good to read opinions and views on this. 

I just sat in on a government/HMRC briefing on the this avenue and it was pretty bleak. 



ska invita said:


> very good
> whats missing is that the irish sea border is currently not even being fully implemented, thats still to come, in three months IIRC on current timetable. Sounds like an election around 6 months after that!


The pending election is a factor but Brexit is the issue. Even those that are trying to promote/support the NIP know it is failing 

We are still in a grace period with this and it is going to get a LOT worse.


----------



## MrSki (Apr 9, 2021)

An open letter from Patrick Kielty to Boris Johhnson from 2018. Gives a good incite into where we are now & why. Worth the read.



> The comedian and TV presenter Patrick Kieltys father was murdered by terrorists in January 1988.
> Here is an open letter to Boris Johnson from Patrick written on Twitter in September 2018. It has aged much better than any of Boris Johnson's lies:
> Dear Boris Johnson
> There is no ‘better Brexit’ when it comes to the Good Friday Agreement and Northern Ireland.
> ...


----------



## TopCat (Apr 9, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Good to read opinions and views on this.
> 
> I just sat in on a government/HMRC briefing on the this avenue and it was pretty bleak.
> 
> ...


The loyalists won’t be happy with Irish produce increasingly filling the shelves in the north.

But what are the options here? Reunification is the only sensible one.


----------



## krtek a houby (Apr 9, 2021)

TopCat said:


> The loyalists won’t be happy with Irish produce increasingly filling the shelves in the north.
> 
> But what are the options here? Reunification is the only sensible one.



That, or said loyalists on hunger strike


----------



## editor (Apr 9, 2021)

TopCat said:


> But what are the options here? Reunification is the only sensible one.


With all the will in the world, that's hugely unlikely to happen. What is far more likely is more violence, more pain and more suffering on both sides, all stirred up by the fucking chaos of Brexit.


----------



## krtek a houby (Apr 9, 2021)

editor said:


> With all the will in the world, that's hugely unlikely to happen. What is far more likely is more violence, more pain and more suffering on both sides, all stirred up by the fucking chaos of Brexit.



Brexit has been the catalyst for an ending to partition. 

There will be a united and free Ireland. No turning back.


----------



## Shechemite (Apr 9, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Gives a good incite



Yeah there’s a lot of them about


----------



## BobDavis (Apr 9, 2021)

So. Genuine question for those that might have an idea. What would happen if the UK gevernment simply announced that the protocol was being abandoned & movement of goods between UK & NI in both directions reverted to as previously it was ? Would the ROI & the EU really allow the troubles to restart just to protect their precious single market ?

As for a united Ireland would that work when part of the population of NI want to remain British ? 

I live in Essex. I have always been a distant spectator in this right from the 70s. I seek knowledge & I seek sensible non partisan replies.


----------



## ska invita (Apr 9, 2021)

BobDavis said:


> So. Genuine question for those that might have an idea. What would happen if the UK gevernment simply announced that the protocol was being abandoned & movement of goods between UK & NI in both directions reverted to as previously it was ? Would the ROI & the EU really allow the troubles to restart just to protect their precious single market ?


The EU would "sanction" for breaking the protocol - theres a procedure included in the NI protocol for this.
What that sanction means in practice we'll have to wait and see.
I think theres already a court case running because the UK have already breached aspects of it (for unilaterally extending the grace period till October, according to this>>>)








						EU begins legal action against UK over Brexit deal 'breaches'
					

EU begins legal action against UK over 'breaches' related to the Northern Ireland protocol #BrusselsBureau




					www.euronews.com


----------



## editor (Apr 9, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Brexit has been the catalyst for an ending to partition.
> 
> There will be a united and free Ireland. No turning back.


Free in what sense? And how might the thorny problem of those living in Northern Ireland who don't want to be part of a united Ireland be peacefully resolved?


----------



## MrSki (Apr 9, 2021)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Yeah there’s a lot of them about


 It is this thread. I meant insight.


----------



## BobDavis (Apr 9, 2021)

ska invita said:


> The EU would "sanction" for breaking the protocol - theres a procedure included in the NI protocol for this.
> What that sanction means in practice we'll have to wait and see.
> I think theres already a court case running because the UK have already breached aspects of it (for unilaterally extending the grace period till October, according to this
> 
> ...


Yes. At some point though there needs to be acceptance that the peace on the island of Ireland that the GFA allowed is more important than ongoing arguments & feuds between UK & EU. I cannot see any way around it apart from simply abandoning the protocol completely.


----------



## likesfish (Apr 9, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Brexit has been the catalyst for an ending to partition.
> 
> There will be a united and free Ireland. No turning back.


Maybe but it's not going to be peaceful or easy. Fuckwits have already  been targeting the  "peace wall". 🤬 In Belfast. You can see what their "plan" is😡
 The sealed Balaclava must be edging themselves into a frenzy waiting for the scum to kill the first Catholic😠


----------



## magneze (Apr 9, 2021)

"Peace wall". I must say it's the first I've heard of that. It doesn't sound like it's working. Who decided to call it that?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Apr 9, 2021)

magneze said:


> "Peace wall". I must say it's the first I've heard of that. It doesn't sound like it's working. Who decided to call it that?



Probably the Peace People, working mums from 1976 onwards on both Catholic and Protestant, who wanted an end to violence had an input.


----------



## ska invita (Apr 9, 2021)

BobDavis said:


> Yes. At some point though there needs to be acceptance that the peace on the island of Ireland that the GFA allowed is more important than ongoing arguments & feuds between UK & EU. I cannot see any way around it apart from simply abandoning the protocol completely.


what you say i think is the logic the Tories are banking on - they realise the bind the EU is in enforcing the border
however UK being in breach is a handy bit of leverage on the UK from the EU, so I doubt it will be binned anytime soon - and they'll have the law 100% on their side
Ireland might unite quicker than before its officially binned!


----------



## lazythursday (Apr 9, 2021)

ska invita said:


> what you say i think is the logic the Tories are banking on - they realise the bind the EU is in enforcing the border
> however UK being in breach is a handy bit of leverage on the UK from the EU, so I doubt it will be binned anytime soon - and they'll have the law 100% on their side
> Ireland might unite quicker than before its officially binned!


I'd like to understand better the implications of this though, for both sides. I imagine there might be huge legal ramifications of not properly enforcing customs/tariffs, that would have wider international implications than just the UK/EU. I guess enormous opportunities for smuggling. But fundamentally I expect the real practical problems don't emerge until the UK diverges significantly from existing rules about products etc which are basically the same as the EU right now. I suspect there are far more problems to a free-for-all border between two different regulatory systems than are immediately apparent to the layperson though.


----------



## likesfish (Apr 9, 2021)

magneze said:


> "Peace wall". I must say it's the first I've heard of that. It doesn't sound like it's working. Who decided to call it that?
> [/QUOTE Peace lines - Wikipedia
> 
> Theres the whole depressing history in some parts they were higher than the berlin wall because yobs got on the roofs to lob petrol bombs over the wall!


----------



## krtek a houby (Apr 9, 2021)

editor said:


> Free in what sense? And how might the thorny problem of those living in Northern Ireland who don't want to be part of a united Ireland be peacefully resolved?



Free from the occupation and a hundred years of partition.

As for a peaceful resolution, the 32 county Republic of Ireland will, of course, be an inclusive one. Regardless of colour, creed, orientation, traditions or beliefs.

Who wouldn't want that?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 9, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Free from the occupation and a hundred years of partition.
> 
> As for a peaceful resolution, the 32 county Republic of Ireland will, of course, be an inclusive one. Regardless of colour, creed, orientation, traditions or beliefs.
> 
> Who wouldn't want that?



Sadly, the majority in the north.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 9, 2021)

cupid_stunt said:


> Sadly, the majority in the north.


recent polling suggests not an absolute one, though...


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 9, 2021)

_Preciousss. . . preciousss. . . _


----------



## krtek a houby (Apr 9, 2021)

cupid_stunt said:


> Sadly, the majority in the north.



The majority in Ireland, is the main concern.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 9, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> The majority in Ireland, is the main concern.



It has to be the majority on both sides of the border.


----------



## krtek a houby (Apr 9, 2021)

cupid_stunt said:


> It has to be the majority on both sides of the border.



What, the artificial British border imposed on Ireland?


----------



## Raheem (Apr 9, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> What, the artificial British border imposed on Ireland?


So Ireland (ETA Republic of) gets a say? Whose idea was that?


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Apr 9, 2021)

Not about the current violence directly, but quite an illuminating discussion on whys and wherefores of a border poll.

Obviously, Irish media is leaps and bounds ahead of discussing this compared to UK, who largely only noticed NI was an issue some months AFTER the referendum, clueless fucks.

It's posted by SF, but actually on RTE. My own take is that McDonald was kind of slippery in a politician way,  the unionist is as nutso as we might expect and Varadkar, for all his faults, had the most nuanced points and approach, which is probably fitting.


----------



## MickiQ (Apr 9, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> The majority in Ireland, is the main concern.


This is and always has been nonsense. you cannot just hand over a part of one country to another over the objections of the majority of the people that live in that part. Even if it was even remotely justified the UK would just be passing the problem from Westminster to Dublin by handing over a million plus people to the rule of another government against their will and they would be justified in rebelling against their unwanted new government.
And you are also assuming that there is universal support in Eire for unification which I rather doubt as well.
The truly great thing about the GFA was that it was that rare thing a compromise that managed to give both sides almost everything they wanted, Brexit has ended the unique environment that made it possible so now we are back in the situation where we were before the GFA.
One side will have to lose so that the other can win.


----------



## philosophical (Apr 9, 2021)

BobDavis said:


> So. Genuine question for those that might have an idea. What would happen if the UK gevernment simply announced that the protocol was being abandoned & movement of goods between UK & NI in both directions reverted to as previously it was ? Would the ROI & the EU really allow the troubles to restart just to protect their precious single market ?
> 
> As for a united Ireland would that work when part of the population of NI want to remain British ?
> 
> I live in Essex. I have always been a distant spectator in this right from the 70s. I seek knowledge & I seek sensible non partisan replies.



I think the key might be in your phrase ‘their precious single market’. Until the vote to leave it was _our_ precious single market.
The vote was for the whole of the UK to leave.
It looks as if the EU started by saying ‘ok, you want to leave as voted for by a majority of voters in your precious UK, but maybe we can reach an agreement to mitigate difficulties whilst you keep your precious UK and we keep our precious single market’.
After a long time it looks as though the UK and the EU had reached an agreement. However it now looks like it is crumbling because of factors within the UK that the EU has nothing to do with.
If the UK now reneges on the agreement it’s government freely entered into, including the border in the Irish Sea, then the logical next step would seem to be the EU saying all bets are off because the UK has gone back on it’s word.
What they do then remains to be seen.
If I were in charge of the EU and the UK has voted to be separate I would go full on separation. This would include enabling all migrants who pitch up in Northern Europe to be helped to go to the Republic of Ireland, transported to the UK border and told they can simply walk in to the UK from there. It would probably be an example of EU humanitarianism as it would lessen the chances of desperate people drowning in the channel.
I would then try to ensure that no cooperative or collaborative arrangements that exist with the UK, they would be stopped because the UK can’t be trusted.
Airspace and water space to be established by force, no agreement for the Republic of Ireland to supply electricity to the UK, no cooperation on security matters, ideally the forced repatriation of UK citizens back to the precious UK, no importation or exportation of any goods whatsoever, and sadly military infrastructure and patrols on the land border in Ireland to keep the untrustworthy UK citizens at bay.
This kind of thing would be horrible, but it would also be what the leave voters voted for, departure and separation.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 9, 2021)

cupid_stunt said:


> It has to be the majority on both sides of the border.



Same poll:


----------



## krtek a houby (Apr 9, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> This is and always has been nonsense. you cannot just hand over a part of one country to another over the objections of the majority of the people that live in that part. Even if it was even remotely justified the UK would just be passing the problem from Westminster to Dublin by handing over a million plus people to the rule of another government against their will and they would be justified in rebelling against their unwanted new government.
> And you are also assuming that there is universal support in Eire for unification which I rather doubt as well.
> The truly great thing about the GFA was that it was that rare thing a compromise that managed to give both sides almost everything they wanted, Brexit has ended the unique environment that made it possible so now we are back in the situation where we were before the GFA.
> One side will have to lose so that the other can win.



There's no justification for the British occupation of the 6 Counties.

There's every justification for an end to the evils of partition.


----------



## MickiQ (Apr 9, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> There's no justification for the British occupation of the 6 Counties.
> 
> There's every justification for an end to the evils of partition.


The British don't occupy NI, it is part of Britain, MOST of the people that live there consider it part of the UK and themselves British First and Irish second, Their concerns are every bit as relevant as the minority who just consider themselves Irish. 
Whilst clearly the people in both Eire and Mainland UK have an interest and some input in to the process, ONLY the people of NI whether Loyalist or Republican matter no-one else.


----------



## philosophical (Apr 9, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> The British don't occupy NI, it is part of Britain, MOST of the people that live there consider it part of the UK and themselves British First and Irish second, Their concerns are every bit as relevant as the minority who just consider themselves Irish.
> Whilst clearly the people in both Eire and Mainland UK have an interest and some input in to the process, ONLY the people of NI whether Loyalist or Republican matter no-one else.



The majority of people in NI, whether Loyalist or Republican, did not vote to leave the EU.
Should that 'matter'?


----------



## MickiQ (Apr 9, 2021)

philosophical said:


> The majority of people in NI, whether Loyalist or Republican, did not vote to leave the EU.
> Should that 'matter'?


Whether it 'should' is of only historical interest. Clearly it didn't and we now in the shitstorm we are in. But it proves the point that ignoring the interests of one group of people because a larger group of people want something is not a good idea.


----------



## TopCat (Apr 9, 2021)

BobDavis said:


> Yes. At some point though there needs to be acceptance that the peace on the island of Ireland that the GFA allowed is more important than ongoing arguments & feuds between UK & EU. I cannot see any way around it apart from simply abandoning the protocol completely.


If the protocol is abandoned as you put it then the EU will threaten tariffs reprisals. They will also threaten or actually force Ireland to erect border infrastructure  to keep UK sourced goods leaking over the border into their EU.


----------



## philosophical (Apr 9, 2021)

The Republic of Ireland is part of the EU. It won't be forced by the EU in terms of submitting to instructions by a third party.


----------



## TopCat (Apr 9, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> The British don't occupy NI, it is part of Britain, MOST of the people that live there consider it part of the UK and themselves British First and Irish second, Their concerns are every bit as relevant as the minority who just consider themselves Irish.
> Whilst clearly the people in both Eire and Mainland UK have an interest and some input in to the process, ONLY the people of NI whether Loyalist or Republican matter no-one else.


This is a bag of shite.


----------



## MickiQ (Apr 9, 2021)

TopCat said:


> This is a bag of shite.


No it is hard fact on the ground, you can deny it all you want and waffle on about the Plantations Act and the actions of Cromwell but here and now in 2021 same as during the Troubles, a large part of the island next door is occupied by 2 groups of people, one who want to be part of the UK and one who don't. Anything else is just using soundbites to deny reality.


----------



## TopCat (Apr 9, 2021)

philosophical said:


> I think the key might be in your phrase ‘their precious single market’. Until the vote to leave it was _our_ precious single market.
> The vote was for the whole of the UK to leave.
> It looks as if the EU started by saying ‘ok, you want to leave as voted for by a majority of voters in your precious UK, but maybe we can reach an agreement to mitigate difficulties whilst you keep your precious UK and we keep our precious single market’.
> After a long time it looks as though the UK and the EU had reached an agreement. However it now looks like it is crumbling because of factors within the UK that the EU has nothing to do with.
> ...


You are my favourite remainer pinup.


----------



## TopCat (Apr 9, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> No it is hard fact on the ground, you can deny it all you want and waffle on about the Plantations Act and the actions of Cromwell but here and now in 2021 same as during the Troubles, a large part of the island next door is occupied by 2 groups of people, one who want to be part of the UK and one who don't. Anything else is just using soundbites to deny reality.


It’s an occupation. Always was.


----------



## MickiQ (Apr 9, 2021)

TopCat said:


> It’s an occupation. Always was.


Another soundbite, are you suggesting that your opinion carries more weight than the million plus people in NI who want to be in the UK?


----------



## N_igma (Apr 9, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> This is and always has been nonsense. you cannot just hand over a part of one country to another over the objections of the majority of the people that live in that part.



What do you think the partition of Ireland actually was then? Because that’s exactly what happened. Ireland was not partitioned with the consent of the Irish people. It was literally carved out to respect the wishes of a minority of the people of Ireland against the majority.

What we are witnessing right now is the death throes of Unionism in Ireland. The United Kingdom itself is disintegrating right before our eyes with the rise of Scottish nationalism and an apathetic English who would be done with us in a shot if they could. Demographic changes will show a Catholic majority in the next census so it’s not a matter of if, but when.

As for how to deal with those who see themselves as British. There are discussions already being made here and the Republic about the nature and makeup of the new country. A new anthem, flag, laws to respect all traditions etc. I’ve seen a plan where the Upper House of Parliament would be in Belfast and the Lower House in Dublin. Stuff like that to make it more palatable to Unionists.

There will be some who still won’t accept that. Arlene Foster herself said she would move in the event of a United Ireland. In cases like that, considering the British government initially confiscated the lands here and planted the ancestors of these people. Then they should take direct responsibility and pay for the resettlement of those who want to move to Britain.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Apr 9, 2021)

TopCat said:


> It’s an occupation. Always was.



Yes but its an occupation thats gone on for several hundred years and seen a large number of population transfers so what he's saying is true, Norn is part of the UK and the population do see themselves as part of it.  Though the "vast majority of the population" is rapidly diminishing and hopefuly within the next 25 years or so Norn will rejoin Ireland.


Norn exists because a bunch of entrenched elites made up a state and the troubles happened because the same elites or descendants stamped in the face of the Catholic minority in an attempt to ensure the above never happened.


----------



## ska invita (Apr 9, 2021)

lazythursday said:


> I'd like to understand better the implications of this though, for both sides. I imagine there might be huge legal ramifications of not properly enforcing customs/tariffs, that would have wider international implications than just the UK/EU. I guess enormous opportunities for smuggling. But fundamentally I expect the real practical problems don't emerge until the UK diverges significantly from existing rules about products etc which are basically the same as the EU right now. I suspect there are far more problems to a free-for-all border between two different regulatory systems than are immediately apparent to the layperson though.


definitely, at the moment there's not been divergence, as that comes to pass it becomes more important - which is why this isn't going to go away and the EU aren't just going to lump it....long way to go on this. Will be interesting what the first sanctions will be.


TopCat said:


> They will also threaten or actually force Ireland to erect border infrastructure  to keep UK sourced goods leaking over the border into their EU.


The EU will threaten to erect border infrastructure? Where?
If you mean the old land border between Ireland and N Ireland it'll never happen. Ireland and the EU more widely are solid against a land border.


----------



## Serge Forward (Apr 9, 2021)

.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 9, 2021)

Serge Forward said:


> .


Good point well made


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 9, 2021)

ska invita said:


> definitely, at the moment there's not been divergence, as that comes to pass it becomes more important - which is why this isn't going to go away and the EU aren't just going to lump it....long way to go on this. Will be interesting what the first sanctions will be.
> 
> The EU will treaten to erect border infrastructure? Where?
> If you mean the old land border between Ireland and N Ireland it'll never happen. Ireland and the EU more widely are solid against a land border.


But nonetheless the border will be there as it was throughout the UK membership of the eu


----------



## ska invita (Apr 9, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> But nonetheless the border will be there as it was throughout the UK membership of the eu


its a ghost of a border


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 9, 2021)

ska invita said:


> its a ghost of a border


Yeh right. Try dispelling the ghost and see how well that goes down on the shankill and in Portadown


----------



## Artaxerxes (Apr 9, 2021)

ska invita said:


> its a ghost of a border



As I saw it described in one article recently "The Good Friday agreement allowed nationalists to pretend that Northern Ireland was part of Ireland and Unionists to pretend it was part of Britain facilitated by freedom of movement and frictionless borders" 

Take that away and your just left with the same issues as before.


----------



## TopCat (Apr 9, 2021)

N_igma said:


> What do you think the partition of Ireland actually was then? Because that’s exactly what happened. Ireland was not partitioned with the consent of the Irish people. It was literally carved out to respect the wishes of a minority of the people of Ireland against the majority.
> 
> What we are witnessing right now is the death throes of Unionism in Ireland. The United Kingdom itself is disintegrating right before our eyes with the rise of Scottish nationalism and an apathetic English who would be done with us in a shot if they could. Demographic changes will show a Catholic majority in the next census so it’s not a matter of if, but when.
> 
> ...


Many will be reluctant for the hardest of hardline unionists to be resettled here.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 9, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Many will be reluctant for the hardest of hardline unionists to be resettled here.


They will be known in Vietnam as the British boat people


----------



## BobDavis (Apr 9, 2021)

TopCat said:


> If the protocol is abandoned as you put it then the EU will threaten tariffs reprisals. They will also threaten or actually force Ireland to erect border infrastructure  to keep UK sourced goods leaking over the border into their EU.


The point I was making. Would the EU actually cause bloody conflict on the island of Ireland by “forcing” the ROI to erect border infrastructure ? I find that hard to believe. It is no good playing the blame game. Who is to blame is far less relevant than preventing the troubles starting up again.


----------



## MickiQ (Apr 9, 2021)

N_igma said:


> What do you think the partition of Ireland actually was then? Because that’s exactly what happened. Ireland was not partitioned with the consent of the Irish people. It was literally carved out to respect the wishes of a minority of the people of Ireland against the majority.
> 
> What we are witnessing right now is the death throes of Unionism in Ireland. The United Kingdom itself is disintegrating right before our eyes with the rise of Scottish nationalism and an apathetic English who would be done with us in a shot if they could. Demographic changes will show a Catholic majority in the next census so it’s not a matter of if, but when.
> 
> ...


There are some good ideas in here perhaps some that may even work, It is quite possible that Unification is the best way forward but it has to be with the full consent of the majority on BOTH sides of the border otherwise it's just swapping one tyranny for another.
I know what the Partition of Ireland was and no-one is defending it but so what? the actions of people hundreds of years ago are irrelevant to the concern of people alive now no matter what side of the border they live on, harping on about past injustices by people long dead gets no-one anywhere.
As for Britain paying towards the process  again there is merit in that idea, there is no value to the people of NI swapping being the poor relations of the UK for being the poor relations of the Southern Irish.
As for Foster we get to flip for her.


----------



## maomao (Apr 9, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> As for Foster we get to flip for her.


Or compromise by dropping her in the middle of the Irish Sea.


----------



## MickiQ (Apr 9, 2021)

maomao said:


> Or compromise by dropping her in the middle of the Irish Sea.


That works for me


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 9, 2021)

maomao said:


> Or compromise by dropping her in the middle of the Irish Sea.


With the rest of the toxic waste there


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 9, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> There are some good ideas in here perhaps some that may even work, It is quite possible that Unification is the best way forward but it has to be with the full consent of the majority on BOTH sides of the border otherwise it's just swapping one tyranny for another.
> I know what the Partition of Ireland was and no-one is defending it but so what? the actions of people hundreds of years ago are irrelevant to the concern of people alive now no matter what side of the border they live on, harping on about past injustices by people long dead gets no-one anywhere.
> As for Britain paying towards the process  again there is merit in that idea, there is no value to the people of NI swapping being the poor relations of the UK for being the poor relations of the Southern Irish.
> As for Foster we get to flip for her.


Tosh. Sadly the actions of people hundreds of years ago have played a great part in framing the world we have today.


----------



## likesfish (Apr 9, 2021)




----------



## MickiQ (Apr 9, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Tosh. Sadly the actions of people hundreds of years ago have played a great part in framing the world we have today.


Indeed they have and that's why we have so many problems but until we stop getting upset about them and start thinking about how we are going to forward we will never get anywhere and just keep going around the same old cycle.


----------



## flypanam (Apr 9, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> That, or said loyalists on hunger strike


There is a serious track record of loyalists on hunger strike look at this lad, Jamie Bryson, Union flag protester Jamie Bryson's hunger strike ends with an Indian curry

If ever a community has been shat on by its leaders, politicians and community leaders, it’s  the loyalists.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 9, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> Indeed they have and that's why we have so many problems but until we stop getting upset about them and start thinking about how we are going to forward we will never get anywhere and just keep going around the same old cycle.


I think I've posted earlier in the thread that there'll need to be some discussion of how a 32 co republic will look so it's not simply a bigger 26 co one so I like to think I've been a mite forward looking on this point


----------



## flypanam (Apr 9, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> I think I've posted earlier in the thread that there'll need to be some discussion of how a 32 co republic will look so it's not simply a bigger 26 co one so I like to think I've been a mite forward looking on this point


Spot on.


----------



## likesfish (Apr 9, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> What, the artificial British border imposed on Ireland?


 because they are the people who live in the bit of land affected the most.
  everyone else is a bystander somebody who lives in Cork or Dublin life won't be dramatically affected one way or the other.

if you think the people who actually live in Northern Ireland views don't matter.  You are  on the same side as Israelis, the Serbs, Argentina, and the Spanish


----------



## flypanam (Apr 9, 2021)

likesfish said:


> because they are the people who live in the bit of land affected the most.
> everyone else is a bystander somebody who lives in Cork or Dublin life won't be dramatically affected one way or the other.
> 
> if you think the people who actually live in Northern Ireland views don't matter.  You are  on the same side as Israelis, the Serbs, Argentina, and the Spanish


Yeah cos none of the people in the south have close family in the north, work there, holiday there, don’t visit it regularly or have an interest in what goes on there. More southerners have spent time there, than any of the chattering classes of England, so they are obvious bystanders.


----------



## likesfish (Apr 9, 2021)

Still aren't permanent residents, if the majority of the residents of the north don't want to reunite it's not happening.
Doesn't matter what Dublin or London think.
Northern Ireland was a bloody stupid idea but it's a century old now any idea of imposing change would be a terrible idea. Even Johnson would eventually figure out it's a non starter🙄


----------



## Maggot (Apr 9, 2021)

The riots tonight are nothing to do with Brexit, they are Masterchef fans, angry that the final has been shunted in favour of more Prince Philip coverage.


----------



## krtek a houby (Apr 9, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> The British don't occupy NI, it is part of Britain, MOST of the people that live there consider it part of the UK and themselves British First and Irish second, Their concerns are every bit as relevant as the minority who just consider themselves Irish.
> Whilst clearly the people in both Eire and Mainland UK have an interest and some input in to the process, ONLY the people of NI whether Loyalist or Republican matter no-one else.



Fuck your mainland.

The 6 Counties are Irish.

Always have been.

Always will.


----------



## krtek a houby (Apr 9, 2021)

likesfish said:


> because they are the people who live in the bit of land affected the most.
> everyone else is a bystander somebody who lives in Cork or Dublin life won't be dramatically affected one way or the other.
> 
> if you think the people who actually live in Northern Ireland views don't matter.  You are  on the same side as Israelis, the Serbs, Argentina, and the Spanish



That's a pile of shite.

The whole point is that the views of Irish people matter. 

More so than the views of EDL supporting apologists for the Crown forces, eh?


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Apr 9, 2021)

Booted out the forces on medical grounds no doubt, only to become a screw. Dog shit walked into your carpet.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 9, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> The British don't occupy NI, it is part of Britain, MOST of the people that live there consider it part of the UK and themselves British First and Irish second, Their concerns are every bit as relevant as the minority who just consider themselves Irish.
> Whilst clearly the people in both Eire and Mainland UK have an interest and some input in to the process, ONLY the people of NI whether Loyalist or Republican matter no-one else.


So not nationalists or unionists

Seems a strange position to take to say only loyalists and republicans matter but not say your sdlp voter, your uup voter, your alliance party voter


----------



## MrSki (Apr 9, 2021)

So the death of Phil the bubble has not stopped the riots.


----------



## MrSki (Apr 9, 2021)




----------



## A380 (Apr 10, 2021)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Booted out the forces on medical grounds no doubt, only to become a screw. Dog shit walked into your carpet.


Play the fucking ball, not the player.


----------



## Badgers (Apr 10, 2021)




----------



## likesfish (Apr 10, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Fuck your mainland.
> 
> The 6 Counties are Irish.
> 
> ...


  so what's your cunning plan. If the Border poll happens and the south, says yes and the North Says NO?


----------



## MickiQ (Apr 10, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> So not nationalists or unionists
> 
> Seems a strange position to take to say only loyalists and republicans matter but not say your sdlp voter, your uup voter, your alliance party voter


Nitpicking again, whilst NI politics can be about other things such as free school meals or bus passes there is one massive fault line that runs down the middle and overshadows all others. No matter which party someone votes for the issue of whether NI is part of the UK or ROI is paramount to them.


----------



## MickiQ (Apr 10, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Fuck your mainland.
> 
> The 6 Counties are Irish.
> 
> ...


Seriously I have seen more intelligent responses scrawled on toilet walls


----------



## MickiQ (Apr 10, 2021)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Booted out the forces on medical grounds no doubt, only to become a screw. Dog shit walked into your carpet.


This is abysmal behaviour


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 10, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> Nitpicking again, whilst NI politics can be about other things such as free school meals or bus passes there is one massive fault line that runs down the middle and overshadows all others. No matter which party someone votes for the issue of whether NI is part of the UK or ROI is paramount to them.


It's not nitpicking to point out that many people in the six counties are neither republican nor loyalist


----------



## TopCat (Apr 10, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> This is abysmal behaviour


Being a right wing screw?


----------



## MickiQ (Apr 10, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> It's not nitpicking to point out that many people in the six counties are neither republican nor loyalist


What other viewpoints are there? Being independent? Part of the USA?


----------



## bimble (Apr 10, 2021)

Is it so far only police who have been injured? Apart from cars and stuff, everyone is focussed on the police?


----------



## flypanam (Apr 10, 2021)

The reality of Northern Ireland for the working class there


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 10, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> What other viewpoints are there? Being independent? Part of the USA?


But this doesn't divide everyone into republicans or loyalists


----------



## Badgers (Apr 10, 2021)




----------



## likesfish (Apr 10, 2021)

The GFA was signed today which while it didn't resolve anything was an agreement all sides found preferable to more killing.
The fact Boris and the brexiteers decided it wasn't important shows how much Ni is valued in Westminster.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 10, 2021)

likesfish said:


> The GFA was signed today which while it didn't resolve anything was an agreement all sides found preferable to more killing.
> The fact Boris and the brexiteers decided it wasn't important shows how much Ni is valued in Westminster.


No 10 anyway


----------



## MickiQ (Apr 10, 2021)

Badgers said:


> View attachment 262558


Surely this isn't actually a real thing?


----------



## Badgers (Apr 10, 2021)

likesfish said:


> The GFA was signed today which while it didn't resolve anything was an agreement all sides found preferable to more killing.
> The fact Boris and the brexiteers decided it wasn't important shows how much Ni is valued in Westminster.


Disgraceful in respect of those who reached the agreement. 

I have little love for politicians but this was a marked occasion and our current GovernCunt has poured us down the river. 

Fuck Brexit and double fuck the Tories


----------



## Badgers (Apr 10, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> Surely this isn't actually a real thing?


Really?


----------



## MickiQ (Apr 10, 2021)

bimble said:


> Is it so far only police who have been injured? Apart from cars and stuff, everyone is focussed on the police?


Injuries cover a wide range of things from broken bones to things like cuts and bruises. Any rioter injured in a riot is not going to report it for obvious reasons. Only those that end up in hospital will get recorded whilst any injury suffered by a cop even if it's just a scrape will. 
Fortunately no-one has been killed yet though I suspect its only a matter of time.


----------



## Badgers (Apr 10, 2021)

__





						The consequences of Boris Johnson’s careless Brexit are playing out in Belfast | Northern Irish politics | The Guardian
					

This week’s violence is an ominous sign that leaving the EU took a wrecking ball to the Good Friday agreement, says Guardian columnist Jonathan Freedland




					amp.theguardian.com


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## Pickman's model (Apr 10, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> Injuries cover a wide range of things from broken bones to things like cuts and bruises. Any rioter injured in a riot is not going to report it for obvious reasons. Only those that end up in hospital will get recorded whilst any injury suffered by a cop even if it's just a scrape will.
> Fortunately no-one has been killed yet though I suspect its only a matter of time.


After the Bristol injury fiasco we cannot trust cops claiming injuries suffered anything worse than bruised feelings


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## A380 (Apr 10, 2021)

bimble said:


> Is it so far only police who have been injured? Apart from cars and stuff, everyone is focussed on the police?


I just don’t think they measure non police casualties, how would you, practically speaking.? Loads of people will have a new mantelpiece display,  ‘the double’ a spent AEP (baton round) and a full colour photograph of the massive  technicolour bruise it left...

Cops got to put everything into the accident book, like any other workplace under the Health and Safety at Work Act.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 10, 2021)

A380 said:


> I just don’t think they measure non police casualties, how would you, practically speaking.? Loads of people will have a new mantelpiece display,  ‘the double’ a spent AEP (baton round) and a full colour photograph of the massive  technicolour bruise it left...
> 
> Cops got to put everything into the accident book, like any other workplace under the Health and Safety at Work Act.


And even then much of what they write is lies


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## A380 (Apr 10, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> And even then much of what they write is lies


Why would you bother? it’s not like there’s any compensation for minor injury any more. I imagine most see it as just another pain in the arse job before going home. It’s not like any PSNI cop on the front line gives the smallest fuck about numbers reported.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 10, 2021)

A380 said:


> Why would you bother? it’s not like there’s any compensation for minor injury any more. I imagine most see it as just another pain in the arse job before going home. It’s not like any PSNI cop on the front line gives the smallest fuck about numbers reported.


It's cop injuries per se not psni in particular. I don't know why they bother but bother they do


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## bimble (Apr 10, 2021)

A380 said:


> I just don’t think they measure non police casualties, how would you, practically speaking.? Loads of people will have a new mantelpiece display,  ‘the double’ a spent AEP (baton round) and a full colour photograph of the massive  technicolour bruise it left...
> 
> Cops got to put everything into the accident book, like any other workplace under the Health and Safety at Work Act.


That all makes sense. Still think its a thing, when events are reported as eruptions of violence & riots, that so far it looks like, maybe, the focus of rage has been pretty exclusively the police. Idk.
 This (Ireland) is one of the few things where I actually know full well that i'm clueless.


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## A380 (Apr 10, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> It's cop injuries per se not psni in particular. I don't know why they bother but bother they do


I think you think they care far far more than they actually care.


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## A380 (Apr 10, 2021)

bimble said:


> That all makes sense. Still think its a thing, when events are reported as eruptions of violence & riots, that so far it looks like, maybe, the focus of rage has been pretty exclusively the police. Idk.
> This (Ireland) is one of the few things where I actually know full well that i'm clueless.


It’s mostly because the politicians and rich ‘community leaders’ from both sides are safely well away from the trouble . Plus la change.

The amazing thing  about Norn is how small everything is and how confined the trouble mostly is to small, poor obviously, areas.Before I went  I used to imagine both the Falls and the Shankhill as something like Birmingham’s Canal Street or the Edgeware Road. The reality is they are both like the second comercial street in somewhere like Daventry.

Although in this case along with the Loyalist anger about being stitched up over Brexit and the SF funeral ( both cases where though I despise their cause I can see their point) their was a third factor in that PSNI and NCA have recently rolled up loads of mid level coke  dealers who were either also loyalist leaders or heavy contributors to loyalist coffers. Personally I think that’s a good thing but others might disagree. One factor in this last lot might be seen as a reaction to that.


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## andysays (Apr 10, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> What other viewpoints are there? Being independent? Part of the USA?


Not all nationalists (supporters of a united Ireland) are republicans.

Not all unionists (supporters of NI remaining in the UK) are loyalists.

This is not a nit-picking distinction.


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## brogdale (Apr 10, 2021)

andysays said:


> Not all nationalists (supporters of a united Ireland) are republicans.
> 
> Not all unionists (supporters of NI remaining in the UK) are loyalists.
> 
> This is not a nit-picking distinction.


Genuinely interested (and probably showing my ignorance here) what positions does a non-republican nationalist take?


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## krtek a houby (Apr 10, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> Seriously I have seen more intelligent responses scrawled on toilet walls



On the "mainland", was it?


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## Pickman's model (Apr 10, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> Seriously I have seen more intelligent responses scrawled on toilet walls


Toilet walls often bear surprisingly intelligent comments


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## likesfish (Apr 10, 2021)

Th


Badgers said:


> View attachment 262558



Rather proves the loyalists aren't loyal to anyone.
Deporting the lot to West Falklands it's cold and wet there's few trees they won't notice the difference 😂. Although building a bonfire to piss off catholics who live 400 miles away might present a challenge but I'm sure they'd be up for it.
We could then import the Hong Kong Chinese it's win win😁.
Ok the loyalists the Chinese government and Argentina might be unhappy but fuckem.


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## andysays (Apr 10, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Genuinely interested (and probably showing my ignorance here) what positions does a non-republican nationalist take?


Republican in this context generally refers to the IRA and similar, or at least that's how I've long understood it.

Not sure if the SDLP are still going, but they're an example of non-republican nationalism.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 10, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Genuinely interested (and probably showing my ignorance here) what positions does a non-republican nationalist take?


I'd say where the difference has traditionally lain is support for constitutional methods, opposition to physical force on moral rather than pragmatic grounds and taking part in the UK parliament


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## MickiQ (Apr 10, 2021)

andysays said:


> Not all nationalists (supporters of a united Ireland) are republicans.
> 
> Not all unionists (supporters of NI remaining in the UK) are loyalists.
> 
> This is not a nit-picking distinction.


OK fair if pedantic point substitute nationalist for republican and unionist for loyalist and my analysis still stands


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## Pickman's model (Apr 10, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> OK fair if pedantic point substitute nationalist for republican and unionist for loyalist and my analysis still stands


No it doesn't because now you want to exclude republicans and loyalists (substitute meaning replace not add).


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## spitfire (Apr 10, 2021)

andysays said:


> Not all nationalists (supporters of a united Ireland) are republicans.
> 
> Not all unionists (supporters of NI remaining in the UK) are loyalists.
> 
> This is not a nit-picking distinction.



This interested me so I asked my Dad, a lifelong, active, republican, this question as I am not politically literate enough to posit the answer confidently.

"Question. Is there such a thing as non-republican Irish nationalism? Like the SDLP or similar? Or is being republican the default for anyone that supports Irish unification?"

"Anyone that supports Irish unification is supporting the notion of a republic in the pure sense, as we are a republic. Of course a UK monarchist could support unification in principle as a good thing for Ireland w/o being a ‘republican’. Of course you must also distinguish between an upper case Republican and a lower case republican. Traditionally Nationalists are from a non violent republican tradition."

Upper case Republicans being the armed struggle crowd, although even then you get into more complex issues of things like the Official IRA who would have been upper case but now are lower case. It's complicated. 

I guess if you support a united Ireland but don't want it to be a republic then you could be nationalist but not republican but there won't be a lot of them about. Getting into grey areas there though.

And whoever is doing it please stop calling the island of Great Britain the mainland, it's insulting.


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## Smokeandsteam (Apr 10, 2021)

A380 said:


> Although in this case along with the Loyalist anger about being stitched up over Brexit and the SF funeral ( both cases where though I despise their cause I can see their point) their was a third factor in that PSNI and NCA have recently rolled up loads of mid level coke dealers who were either also loyalist leaders or heavy contributors to loyalist coffers. Personally I think that’s a good thing but others might disagree. One factor in this last lot might be seen as a reaction to that.



There normally are a complex nexus of issues that are at work in a riot. But there also, especially in the 6 counties, needs to be some level of organisation and leadership. Given that the Tories, DUP and others are busy stating that there is no evidence of active paramilitary organisation then the PSNI and NCA operation does seem very significant. Yet media accounts always mention it in passing, as an incidental detail, revealing their distance from ground level. As always others want to deliberately misinterpret the motives of the actors for their own ends and political manoeuvring.


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## brogdale (Apr 10, 2021)

Every day is a school day!
Thanks andysays Pickman's model & spitfire for those helpful responses   

I suppose I was mentally tripping up on the notion that nationalists were, for the most part, subscribing to the/an Irish republic and so were/are republican constitutionally speaking, but the upper case usage generally refers to those engaged in the armed struggle.

Hope that's about right?

Although I'm conscious that upthread Pickman's model was talking about alternative visions of what an all Ireland state might look like; though presumably some sort of a republic?


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## spitfire (Apr 10, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Every day is a school day!
> Thanks andysays Pickman's model & spitfire for those helpful responses
> 
> I suppose I was mentally tripping up on the notion that nationalists were, for the most part, subscribing to the/an Irish republic and so were/are republican constitutionally speaking, but the upper case usage generally refers to those engaged in the armed struggle.
> ...



That would be my understanding as well, I asked my old man as I knew he would be able to sum it up better than I.

I was just thinking about the alternatives and there must be some people somewhere that desire a united Ireland and the return of the Irish High King, that would make them a Nationalist Monarchist and (most) people in Ireland opposed to this would be a republican republican or a republican Republican. As a republican republican I'm afraid that rules me out.


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## Mordi (Apr 10, 2021)

spitfire said:


> That would be my understanding as well, I asked my old man as I knew he would be able to sum it up better than I.
> 
> I was just thinking about the alternatives and there must be some people somewhere that desire a united Ireland and the return of the Irish High King, that would make them a Nationalist Monarchist and (most) people in Ireland opposed to this would be a republican republican or a republican Republican. As a republican republican I'm afraid that rules me out.



Wasn't Arthur Griffith (founder of Sinn Fein) after a dual monarchy thing where Ireland would be one part of the kingdom in the style of Austro-Hungary? Probably not a lot of support for that one now, or indeed ever.


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## flypanam (Apr 10, 2021)

A united Ireland has to be a republic. Republicans of all strips from Eirigi, to SF, and FF (small r republicans) claim the mantle of Wolfetone who was influenced by the French Revolution. What I’d like to see in title and deed is a 32 county workers’ republic along the lines first espoused by James Connolly.
A united ireland where the psni wear the uniform of the gardai is not some thing I want.


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## flypanam (Apr 10, 2021)

Mordi said:


> Wasn't Arthur Griffith (founder of Sinn Fein) after a dual monarchy thing where Ireland would be one part of the kingdom in the style of Austro-Hungary? Probably not a lot of support for that one now, or indeed ever.


He was indeed. The resurrection of Hungary was the book but he wanted a shared kingdom much along the lines of the Austro Hungarian empire. Horrible cunt.


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## Artaxerxes (Apr 10, 2021)

Mordi said:


> Wasn't Arthur Griffith (founder of Sinn Fein) after a dual monarchy thing where Ireland would be one part of the kingdom in the style of Austro-Hungary? Probably not a lot of support for that one now, or indeed ever.



A lot of these ideas were an attempt to placate the British demands to ensure that Ireland would be forever loyal, i.e. an Irish Monarch would be the British Monarch and the crowns united but Ireland nominally free.

In many ways Ireland laid the foundations both for colonialism (after Wales and Scotland) and the foundatins for the templates of how the Dominions would work.



andysays said:


> Not all nationalists (supporters of a united Ireland) are republicans.
> 
> Not all unionists (supporters of NI remaining in the UK) are loyalists.
> 
> This is not a nit-picking distinction.



This is a more realistic picture of Irish Nationalism and Unionism before 1916/1922 really.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 10, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> In many ways Ireland laid the foundations both for colonialism (after Wales and Scotland) and the foundatins for the templates of how the Dominions would work.


I think you'll find Ireland laid none of the foundations for colonialism and that it was England who's responsible for that.


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## Artaxerxes (Apr 10, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> I think you'll find Ireland laid none of the foundations for colonialism and that it was England who's responsible for that.



*The conduct of the British in Ireland.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 10, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> *The conduct of the British in Ireland.
> 
> Now fuck off ta.


By no means sure about your dominion bit either tbh being as Canada and other far-flung colonies achieved at least internal self-government rather before Ireland did (eg Canada confederation 1867) while Ireland still sent mps to Westminster until the 1920s (tho at least 73 of the 1918 intake were numbered in the first dail instead)


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## Artaxerxes (Apr 10, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> By no means sure about your dominion bit either tbh being as Canada and other far-flung colonies achieved at least internal self-government rather before Ireland did (eg Canada confederation 1867) while Ireland still sent mps to Westminster until the 1920s (tho at least 73 of the 1918 intake were numbered in the first dail instead)



I don't know enough about Canada but most of the books I've read on Ireland state it. Unless I've misread it which is always a possibility.

Given Irish home rule or not to home rule was a hot topic through most of the 1800s as well I can't see it as that much of a stretch.


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## MrSki (Apr 10, 2021)

spitfire said:


> And whoever is doing it please stop calling the island of Great Britain the mainland, it's insulting.


I think I might have been guilty of this. I have heard a few of my NI friends refer to it as this. Is it the main bit that is insulting? I will stop using the term but am interested as to why it is insulting.


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## spitfire (Apr 10, 2021)

MrSki said:


> I think I might have been guilty of this. I have heard a few of my NI friends refer to it as this. Is it the main bit that is insulting? I will stop using the term but am interested as to why it is insulting.



I’ve heard Irish people say it as well. But in an enlightened political environment like this it should be corrected. TBH most people don’t mean it in a bad way but it makes me wince. 

It reduces Ireland to a satellite of GB.They’re both islands. One’s just a bit bigger than the other.


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## Serge Forward (Apr 10, 2021)

The island of Great Britain, the island of Ireland. Simple innit.


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## MrSki (Apr 10, 2021)

spitfire said:


> It reduces Ireland to a satellite of GB.They’re both islands. One’s just a bit bigger than the other.


Thank you but if referring to the UK or discussing NI as part of the UK & not actually referring to the island of Ireland then is it still out of place? I mean I know NI is part of the Ireland of Ireland but is currently part of the UK. I only ask because of a number of NI friends refer to going to the mainland. (Don't know their political stance. I always think it is rude to ask but it doesn't normally take too long to work out.)


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## brogdale (Apr 10, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Thank you but if referring to the UK or discussing NI as part of the UK & not actually referring to the island of Ireland then is it still out of place? I mean I know NI is part of the Ireland of Ireland but is currently part of the UK. I only ask because of a number of NI friends refer to going to the mainland. (Don't know their political stance. I always think it is rude to ask but it doesn't normally take too long to work out.)


Easier, quicker and more accurate just to say GB; after all, the mainland (if there is one) starts at Calais.


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## andysays (Apr 10, 2021)

As I recall, the IRA bombing campaign in Britain as opposed to in NI was generally referred to as the mainland bombing campaign, though whether that phrase was coined by them or the British media I couldn't say.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 10, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> I don't know enough about Canada but most of the books I've read on Ireland state it. Unless I've misread it which is always a possibility.
> 
> Given Irish home rule or not to home rule was a hot topic through most of the 1800s as well I can't see it as that much of a stretch.


your second point first, depends what you mean by home rule. if you mean 'did people campaign for the repeal of the act of union' then yes, they did for most of the 1800s. if what you mean was home rule or home government as sought by irish mps from the 1870s on, then obvs no. your first point second, i'll quote liz curtis's 'the cause of ireland: from the united irishmen to partition' (belfast: beyond the pale, 1994):

[1920: the british look how to deal with rebel ireland]: but at the level of long-term policy british tories and liberals were now agreed: ireland should have home rule - with special arrangements for 'ulster' - but it should on no account be allowed to leave the empire. there would be no republic, and not even the dominion status accorded to the other 'white' colonies, canada, australia, new zealand and south africa. as lloyd george put it,
the demand for dominion status was really a demand for the right of secession, since the dominions were virtually independent states and could secede at any time if they chose... (p.314)
_(my emphasis, ellipsis in original)_

so as you can see, the other 'white' colonies had for some time enjoyed far greater latitude in their self-government than was allowed ireland (which even in 1920 had none), which makes it difficult to see how ireland's relationship with england could be a model for a status which was enjoyed by canada and australia and which ireland didn't have a tenth of as there was no assembly in dublin to compare to that in eg ottawa


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## spitfire (Apr 10, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Thank you but if referring to the UK or discussing NI as part of the UK & not actually referring to the island of Ireland then is it still out of place? I mean I know NI is part of the Ireland of Ireland but is currently part of the UK. I only ask because of a number of NI friends refer to going to the mainland. (Don't know their political stance. I always think it is rude to ask but it doesn't normally take too long to work out.)



now that would be an ecumenical question.

Depends on your viewpoint, some people may well consider GB the mainland and use the word as such. I would disagree with them as would the vast majority of people in Ireland.


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## MrSki (Apr 10, 2021)

Serge Forward said:


> The island of Great Britain, the island of Ireland. Simple innit.


But Great Britain is a lot more than one island isn't it? Are all the Scottish isles included in Great Britain. Not trying to be a twat but just interested. I know that the British Isles includes Ireland too but am unsure about the rest.


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## spitfire (Apr 10, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Easier, quicker and more accurate just to say GB; after all, the mainland (if there is one) starts at Calais.



And to be fair it is actually geographically incorrect as brogdale points out.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 10, 2021)

spitfire said:


> now that would be an ecumenical question.
> 
> Depends on your viewpoint, some people may well consider GB the mainland and use the word as such. I would disagree with them as would the vast majority of people in Ireland.


they used to say 'the mainland' on the bbc. back in the day. but it's a long auld time since i've heard it used.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 10, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Easier, quicker and more accurate just to say GB; after all, the mainland (if there is one) starts at Calais.


that's mainerland


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## MrSki (Apr 10, 2021)

andysays said:


> As I recall, the IRA bombing campaign in Britain as opposed to in NI was generally referred to as the mainland bombing campaign, though whether that phrase was coined by them or the British media I couldn't say.


Thank you. This is probably what has been confusing me.


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## andysays (Apr 10, 2021)

spitfire said:


> And to be fair it is actually geographically incorrect as brogdale points out.


Depends on your perspective, TBH.

The largest islands in eg the Japanese and Orkney group of islands are both referred to by locals as the mainland.


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## brogdale (Apr 10, 2021)

MrSki said:


> But Great Britain is a lot more than one island isn't it? Are all the Scottish isles included in Great Britain. Not trying to be a twat but just interested. I know that the British Isles includes Ireland too but am unsure about the rest.


It's imprecisely defined.
I'd call the contiguous land mass of the larger British Isles "Britain", but some refer to it as Great Britain.
Either way, it's an island off the main Eurasian land mass.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 10, 2021)

brogdale said:


> It's imprecisely defined.
> I'd call the contiguous land mass of the larger British Isles "Britain", but some refer to it as Great Britain.
> Either way, it's an island off the main Eurasian land mass.


a far-off land of which nothing is known, if you're lucky


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## Serge Forward (Apr 10, 2021)

MrSki said:


> But Great Britain is a lot more than one island isn't it? Are all the Scottish isles included in Great Britain. Not trying to be a twat but just interested. I know that the British Isles includes Ireland too but am unsure about the rest.


Little islands like Cape Clear or the Isle of Wight may well refer to the island of Ireland or Great Britain, respectively,  as the mainland. Why would any part of Ireland refer to GB as the mainland, unless they wanted to make a political point?

Them old news reports on the troubles, which always referred to the British mainland, were most definitely making a political point.


----------



## MrSki (Apr 10, 2021)




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## A380 (Apr 10, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> I think you'll find Ireland laid none of the foundations for colonialism and that it was England who's responsible for that.


Don’t let the Scots off so easily. They had their own colonies in the Americas before the Act of Union and were quite happy to be there alongside us nicking other people’s stuff. It’s only recently they’re  giving it the whole ‘ first victims, poor little us’ spiel: There’s just as much slave money and blood in the lovely buildings of Edinburgh and Glasgow as Bristol and London. 25% of the Brits who ran India during the Raj were Scottish.


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## A380 (Apr 10, 2021)

MrSki said:


> I think I might have been guilty of this. I have heard a few of my NI friends refer to it as this. Is it the main bit that is insulting? I will stop using the term but am interested as to why it is insulting.


The ‘mainland’ is that bit with France, Holland, Russia and China plus other bits and bobs on it.


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## Serge Forward (Apr 11, 2021)

A380 said:


> The ‘mainland’ is that bit with France, Holland, Russia and China plus other bits and bobs on it.


Bits and bobs?!?!!!!!!!11!! As a proud Eurafrasian, I am insulted


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## spitfire (Apr 11, 2021)

A380 said:


> The ‘mainland’ is that bit with France, Holland, Russia and China plus other bits and bobs on it.



Zigackly.


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## TopCat (Apr 11, 2021)

Census results out soon. Unionists may well be a minority.


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## philosophical (Apr 11, 2021)

Irish nationalism and Scottish nationalism both stink as a philosophy in my view, but up against little Englanders who can blame those ideas for getting traction?
I have always viewed the Irish struggle not as a journey towards shamrocks, leprechauns and diddly diddly music, but a struggle _against _English monarchy, the English establishment, and also a reaction to genocide practiced on the people of the island of Ireland because they have never been sufficiently deferential to the English.
Things were improving most definitely as a result of the Belfast agreement. That was of course blown apart by the vote to leave.
Many many times I have heard those who admit to voting leave say they knew what they were voting for, and would do so again.
In that context I conclude that leave voters, including the lexiter tossers, actually want the strife in Ireland.


----------



## MrSki (Apr 11, 2021)




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## Pickman's model (Apr 11, 2021)

philosophical said:


> Irish nationalism and Scottish nationalism both stink as a philosophy in my view, but up against little Englanders who can blame those ideas for getting traction?
> I have always viewed the Irish struggle not as a journey towards shamrocks, leprechauns and diddly diddly music, but a struggle _against _English monarchy, the English establishment, and also a reaction to genocide practiced on the people of the island of Ireland because they have never been sufficiently deferential to the English.
> Things were improving most definitely as a result of the Belfast agreement. That was of course blown apart by the vote to leave.
> Many many times I have heard those who admit to voting leave say they knew what they were voting for, and would do so again.
> In that context I conclude that leave voters, including the lexiter tossers, actually want the strife in Ireland.


the Irish struggle is a struggle to whatever the Irish people want. It's a struggle which has been characterised by advanced democratic ideas and a strain of socialism which has been an inspiration to anti-colonial and anti-imperialist struggles across the world. The nationalism of Fine Gael or Fianna Fail may be squalid philosophies, but to describe all of Irish nationalism as a philosophy that stinks, is by extension to say that much of the literature of Ireland stinks as the nationalist tradition has been very much a literary one too, most famously perhaps expressed in the work of yeats, æ, kickham, davis, behan. Not to mention the ideas of lalor, connolly or liam mellows which continue to inspire today. Irish nationalism has been a struggle as much positive - for aims such as restoring the Irish language so well destroyed by the English and abandoned as backward by many nineteenth century Irish - as negative, in opposition to the English presence in Ireland, and to damn Irish nationalism as stinky is I submit as puerile as it is stupid


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## philosophical (Apr 11, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> the Irish struggle is a struggle to whatever the Irish people want. It's a struggle which has been characterised by advanced democratic ideas and a strain of socialism which has been an inspiration to anti-colonial and anti-imperialist struggles across the world. The nationalism of Fine Gael or Fianna Fail may be squalid philosophies, but to describe all of Irish nationalism as a philosophy that stinks, is by extension to say that much of the literature of Ireland stinks as the nationalist tradition has been very much a literary one too, most famously perhaps expressed in the work of yeats, æ, kickham, davis, behan. Not to mention the ideas of lalor, connolly or liam mellows which continue to inspire today. Irish nationalism has been a struggle as much positive - for aims such as restoring the Irish language so well destroyed by the English and abandoned as backward by many nineteenth century Irish - as negative, in opposition to the English presence in Ireland, and to damn Irish nationalism as stinky is I submit as puerile as it is stupid



Well you’re right in terms of Irish culture and literary culture being a lot about nationalistic struggle. However there is more to it than that. For example despite some modern cultural tropes I would ask the question should black and Asian people only be presented in terms of racism and struggle?
Synge wrote Playboy of the Western World as a celebration of the poetic nature of English spoken by rural Irish people, but it is not a political cultural artefact, more a sweet exploration of aspects of the human condition, influenced I would say by Chekhov who portrayed rounded people who were not only defined by their socio/political status, but by their humanity.
What stinks for me about nationalism in general, and I did not only mention Irish, but Scottish as well, is what seems to me to be a journey towards separateness in a world where we are interdependent.
This is why I find the Brexit vote so distressing, it is a move towards more isolation, despite what I see as a fraudulent sell by brexiters that it is about connecting with the wider world.
To use one of your phrases I see nationalism ‘by extension’ as a move towards isolationism. If that is true, then it stinks, but it is not as rancid as the present manoeuvrings of the English establishment.


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## krtek a houby (Apr 11, 2021)

philosophical said:


> Well you’re right in terms of Irish culture and literary culture being a lot about nationalistic struggle. However there is more to it than that. For example despite some modern cultural tropes I would ask the question should black and Asian people only be presented in terms of racism and struggle?
> Synge wrote Playboy of the Western World as a celebration of the poetic nature of English spoken by rural Irish people, but it is not a political cultural artefact, more a sweet exploration of aspects of the human condition, influenced I would say by Chekhov who portrayed rounded people who were not only defined by their socio/political status, but by their humanity.
> What stinks for me about nationalism in general, and I did not only mention Irish, but Scottish as well, is what seems to me to be a journey towards separateness in a world where we are interdependent.
> This is why I find the Brexit vote so distressing, it is a move towards more isolation, despite what I see as a fraudulent sell by brexiters that it is about connecting with the wider world.
> To use one of your phrases I see nationalism ‘by extension’ as a move towards isolationism. If that is true, then it stinks, but it is not as rancid as the present manoeuvrings of the English establishment.



Independence does not necessarily mean isolation, though.


----------



## philosophical (Apr 11, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Independence does not necessarily mean isolation, though.





krtek a houby said:


> Independence does not necessarily mean isolation, though.



No it does not necessarily mean that, but there is a risk however small.
Ireland is a place where so many have left to go to far flung places that I would hope internationalism rather than nationalism is the deeper aspiration.
I want to repeat, in the context of the dreadful treatment of the indigenous population of the smaller land mass by the population of the larger land mass then what might be described as an independent united Ireland is a good aspiration.
My worry is that in the wrong hands of power then there might be a move towards trying to define people as ‘true’ Irish, and then others react against some seen as ‘plastic paddy’s’.
If we haven’t learned from the global pandemic that we are all the human race, maybe we will learn it as a result of environmental destruction.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Apr 11, 2021)

MrSki said:


>





"Its not Brexit at fault, we just need to Brexit harder"


----------



## BobDavis (Apr 11, 2021)

When I was a truck driver I used to meet plenty of Irish truckers. Some would refer to the UK as “the big island” some would refer to NI as ”the north of Ireland” & some would tick me off for mentioning NI at all & told me that it was just Ireland.


----------



## flypanam (Apr 11, 2021)

Anyway another day of loyalists paramilitaries not organising evictions of catholics from housing estates and another day of Johnson not pandering to them









						UVF orders removal of Catholic families from Carrickfergus housing estate in '21st century form of ethnic cleansing'
					

The UVF has ordered the removal of Catholic families from a housing estate in Carrickfergus in what has been termed a "form of 21st century ethnic cleansing".




					m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk
				











						Boris Johnson refuses calls for summit on violence in Northern Ireland
					

Irish government suggests talks after eight nights in which police have been attacked and cars torched




					www.google.com


----------



## flypanam (Apr 11, 2021)

philosophical said:


> No it does not necessarily mean that, but there is a risk however small.
> Ireland is a place where so many have left to go to far flung places that I would hope internationalism rather than nationalism is the deeper aspiration.
> I want to repeat, in the context of the dreadful treatment of the indigenous population of the smaller land mass by the population of the larger land mass then what might be described as an independent united Ireland is a good aspiration.
> My worry is that in the wrong hands of power then there might be a move towards trying to define people as ‘true’ Irish, and then others react against some seen as ‘plastic paddy’s’.
> If we haven’t learned from the global pandemic that we are all the human race, maybe we will learn it as a result of environmental destruction.


The plastic paddy is a concern of the middle class emigrants who abhor the fact that to be Irish you don’t need an accent.
There nothing like a Rock guy or Beaufort Bowsie working at JP or PWC, after three years at UCD determining authenticity. 

I’d say the mammy and baby Irish classes in Camden or other places have some stern ideas about who is Irish or not.


----------



## muscovyduck (Apr 11, 2021)

Plastic paddy is, from what I've observed, a concept more often weilded by English people who don't like that someone they know has a positive cultural identity that doesn't centre them.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Apr 11, 2021)

philosophical said:


> What stinks for me about nationalism in general, and I did not only mention Irish, but Scottish as well, is what seems to me to be a journey towards separateness in a world where we are interdependent.



but is it?

i'm not scottish (or irish or welsh) but is it that unreasonable to want to be an independent nation state working inter-dependently with other independent nation states, rather than at best a junior partner and at worst treated like a colony of an overwhelmingly english 'british' state?

english nationalism does seem to come almost universally with a side order of exceptionalism, (belief of) superiority over other nations, xenophobia and racism which i'd agree has  a fair amout of stinkiness.

while i'm sure there are some outliers, from where i'm sitting, scottish nationalism doesn't seem to come with so much of that...


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Apr 11, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> The British don't occupy NI, it is part of Britain, MOST of the people that live there consider it part of the UK and themselves British First and Irish second, Their concerns are every bit as relevant as the minority who just consider themselves Irish.
> Whilst clearly the people in both Eire and Mainland UK have an interest and some input in to the process, ONLY the people of NI whether Loyalist or Republican matter no-one else.


This is a position I accept (though the margin for staying UK is very small)

It has been arrived at as a consequence of the immense slog and courage behind GFA - the greatest political achievement of national politics in my lifetime. Astounding.

It has been jeapordised by the head banging faction of Brexit. They are morally bankrupt.

Any return of violence is on them, moreso even than those undertaking that violence.

They say they knew what they were voting for, therefore they were voting for bloodshed
in what is still the UK. They are beneath contempt.


----------



## Serge Forward (Apr 11, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> but is it?
> 
> i'm not scottish (or irish or welsh) but is it that unreasonable to want to be an independent nation state working inter-dependently with other independent nation states, rather than at best a junior partner and at worst treated like a colony of an overwhelmingly english 'british' state?
> 
> ...


Terrible that English or British nationalism is, alternative nationalisms are not the answer.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 11, 2021)

Serge Forward said:


> Terrible that English or British nationalism is, alternative nationalisms are not the answer.


Perhaps not. But those serious about the subject won't phrase their opposition in terms like it stinks which would shame a callow youth but develop other more cogent arguments


----------



## lazythursday (Apr 11, 2021)

Serge Forward said:


> Terrible that English or British nationalism is, alternative nationalisms are not the answer.


I just don't quite get this argument, now also being used in another context against the fledging Northern Independence Party. It basically seems to be an argument for status quo, in terms of existing nation states / borders / geographic territoriality. I find the right wing flavour of nationalism abhorrent, but I think it's wrong to characterise all attempts at establishing independent nationhood as somehow politically suspect.


----------



## Serge Forward (Apr 11, 2021)

lazythursday said:


> I just don't quite get this argument, now also being used in another context against the fledging Northern Independence Party. It basically seems to be an argument for status quo, in terms of existing nation states / borders / geographic territoriality. I find the right wing flavour of nationalism abhorrent, but I think it's wrong to characterise all attempts at establishing independent nationhood as somehow politically suspect.


It's not an argument for the status quo, it's an argument about class or nation, with free communism as the answer.


----------



## hitmouse (Apr 11, 2021)

Serge Forward said:


> It's not an argument for the status quo, it's an argument about class or nation, with free communism as the answer.


Aye, in terms of Ireland it means looking at, for instance, the Irish Soviets, and who it was who broke them up. Obviously Scotland or Northern England in 2021 aren't quite where Ireland was at in 1921 or so.


----------



## philosophical (Apr 11, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> but is it?
> 
> i'm not scottish (or irish or welsh) but is it that unreasonable to want to be an independent nation state working inter-dependently with other independent nation states, rather than at best a junior partner and at worst treated like a colony of an overwhelmingly english 'british' state?
> 
> ...



I wonder how you might define a nation state in the first place? I was born in Kent, but wasn’t that an accident of birth?
Would that necessitate if circumstances arose that I would be obliged to be called up and fight and possibly die at the behest of others born in Kent, or the UK, or the greater British Isles, or Europe or wherever?
I have a sense of ‘home’ related to my street, probably my postcode or my part of London, but the demands of local society are due to the accident of that birth, not because I have any sense of nationhood as seems to be defined in places. I wouldn’t particularly define myself as English because the connotations of that don’t appeal to me.
I am here by chance happenstance.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 11, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Aye, in terms of Ireland it means looking at, for instance, the Irish Soviets, and who it was who broke them up. Obviously Scotland or Northern England in 2021 aren't quite where Ireland was at in 1921 or so.


I'll have to read kostick as the IRA of the tan war varied in many ways from one county to another and within counties. Obviously the politics of the IRA weren't monolithic, and I wouldn't be surprised if Soviets in some parts of the island were either left untouched by the IRA or supported by them.


----------



## pseudonarcissus (Apr 11, 2021)

philosophical said:


> I wonder how you might define a nation state in the first place? I was born in Kent, but wasn’t that an accident of birth?


Born as a man (or maid) of Kent or a Kentish man (or maid)?

We need to know which nation you’re really from.


----------



## krtek a houby (Apr 11, 2021)

philosophical said:


> No it does not necessarily mean that, but there is a risk however small.
> Ireland is a place where so many have left to go to far flung places that I would hope internationalism rather than nationalism is the deeper aspiration.
> I want to repeat, in the context of the dreadful treatment of the indigenous population of the smaller land mass by the population of the larger land mass then what might be described as an independent united Ireland is a good aspiration.
> My worry is that in the wrong hands of power then there might be a move towards trying to define people as ‘true’ Irish, and then others react against some seen as ‘plastic paddy’s’.
> If we haven’t learned from the global pandemic that we are all the human race, maybe we will learn it as a result of environmental destruction.



There's already a far right contingent in Irish nationalism. From the likes of Aine Ni Chonnail 20 years back to modern day loons like Gemma O'Doherty. You'll see other bigots online, targeting Irish people they perceive as "foreign" (Hazel Chu etc)  or cropping up when Sinn Fein members speak up against racism.

The racists were initially given the benefit of the doubt, back in the day. We were told that they weren't used to change and that they were undergoing adjustment.

Well, that turned out to be bollocks and the irrational hatreds became entrenched. But the racists won't win, we won't stand for it. That's not what an inclusive Republic is about.

As for so-called plastics, there's a difference between say, someone in Harlesden and  someone from Chicago who says they're Irish but can't tell you anything about the country.

But, of course, both have the right to identify as Irish. As do unionists in the occupied counties.

Other opinions are available.


----------



## splonkydoo (Apr 11, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> I'll have to read kostick as the IRA of the tan war varied in many ways from one county to another and within counties. Obviously the politics of the IRA weren't monolithic, and I wouldn't be surprised if Soviets in some parts of the island were either left untouched by the IRA or supported by them.



yeh, but, AFAIR orders were given from Dail cabinet for strikes to be broken up - with Markiewicz as the Minister for Labour, she repeatedly threatened to use the IRA to break strikes. and suppress soviets and farm labourers.

_‘the unemployed are already looking to us to do something towards providing work…one has to face the fact that complaints have come to this office of men of the I.R.A. taking part in labour disputes. Evidence has also come to me that in some areas the workers are not willing to submit to the authority of their Executive and are beginning to get out of hand. What is to be feared in the near future is:- small local outbreaks growing more and more frequent and violent, the immediate result of which will be, destruction of property and much misery which will tend to disrupt the Republican cause’._


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 11, 2021)

splonkydoo said:


> yeh, but, AFAIR orders were given from Dail cabinet for strikes to be broken up - with Markiewicz as the Minister for Labour, she repeatedly threatened to use the IRA to break strikes. and suppress soviets and farm labourers.
> 
> _‘the unemployed are already looking to us to do something towards providing work…one has to face the fact that complaints have come to this office of men of the I.R.A. taking part in labour disputes. Evidence has also come to me that in some areas the workers are not willing to submit to the authority of their Executive and are beginning to get out of hand. What is to be feared in the near future is:- small local outbreaks growing more and more frequent and violent, the immediate result of which will be, destruction of property and much misery which will tend to disrupt the Republican cause’._


Yeh but to reiterate a) I'll have to have a look at kostick, and b) I wouldn't be surprised if in some areas the IRA took different lines. Unless you can add to what's already been said I'll wait till I can lay my hands on kostick's book later this week.


----------



## A380 (Apr 11, 2021)

In the words of my mother ‘once de Valera got his grubby hands on power any chance for socialism in Ireland was properly fucked”.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Apr 12, 2021)

Serge Forward said:


> Terrible that English or British nationalism is, alternative nationalisms are not the answer.




That doesnt answer why scotland or NI should have to put up constant little-england reactionary shite that they dont vote for.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Apr 12, 2021)

philosophical said:


> Well you’re right in terms of Irish culture and literary culture being a lot about nationalistic struggle. However there is more to it than that. For example despite some modern cultural tropes I would ask the question should black and Asian people only be presented in terms of racism and struggle?
> Synge wrote Playboy of the Western World as a celebration of the poetic nature of English spoken by rural Irish people, but it is not a political cultural artefact, more a sweet exploration of aspects of the human condition, influenced I would say by Chekhov who portrayed rounded people who were not only defined by their socio/political status, but by their humanity.
> What stinks for me about nationalism in general, and I did not only mention Irish, but Scottish as well, is what seems to me to be a journey towards separateness in a world where we are interdependent.
> This is why I find the Brexit vote so distressing, it is a move towards more isolation, despite what I see as a fraudulent sell by brexiters that it is about connecting with the wider world.
> To use one of your phrases I see nationalism ‘by extension’ as a move towards isolationism. If that is true, then it stinks, but it is not as rancid as the present manoeuvrings of the English establishment.


Can you not, for a second, think why the people of Ireland might wish to distance themselves from their abusers? The same people who attempted to starve them to death? Do you think they do this because they 'don't want friends'? 
Stop living in books, and try to put yourself in the shoes of the people who suffered (and are still suffering) at the hands of the same cunts who said they should eat grass from the side of the road, and mix it with mud if the grass wasn't flavourful enough.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Apr 12, 2021)

> “Rotten potatoes and sea-weed, or even grass, properly mixed, afforded a very wholesome and nutritious food. All knew that Irishmen could live upon anything and there was plenty grass in the field though the potato crop should fail.”







__





						The Great Hunger, Ireland 1845-50 – Great Disasters
					






					www.greatdisasters.co.uk
				



Yeah, let's give them a big hug!
What people fail to realise is that there was no famine in Ireland. The 'famine' happened because all of the food being grown in Ireland was sent to feed the people of England, and if the Irish people wanted to eat, they could eat grass!


----------



## Serge Forward (Apr 12, 2021)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> That doesnt answer why scotland or NI should have to put up constant little-england reactionary shite that they dont vote for.


Correct, neither does any other form of nationalism.


----------



## andysays (Apr 12, 2021)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> That doesnt answer why scotland or NI should have to put up constant little-england reactionary shite that they dont vote for.


Yeah, Scotland and NI should obviously have the right to elect their own locally sourced reactionary shite and not have to put up with the imported English variety.


----------



## Rimbaud (Apr 12, 2021)

UVF orders removal of Catholic families from Carrickfergus housing estate in '21st century form of ethnic cleansing'

This is very ominous. UVF have apparently been trying to drive suspected Catholics out of a housing estate in Carrickfergus. Echoes of the bad old days getting louder.


----------



## TopCat (Apr 12, 2021)

Peace in Northern Ireland is in danger – Johnson’s lies and inaction offer no help | Jonathan Powell
					

The region has been used as a pawn since the Brexit vote. All sides must now start talking to avoid an escalation of violence and division




					www.theguardian.com
				




An interesting piece. I don’t agree with a lot of it but there is some perceptive stuff here.


----------



## Badgers (Apr 12, 2021)




----------



## brogdale (Apr 12, 2021)

Badgers said:


>



What could possibly go wrong?


----------



## The39thStep (Apr 12, 2021)

Badgers did they say anything at your briefing about what they might look for in this?


----------



## brogdale (Apr 12, 2021)

Badgers said:


>



I see that the Mirror carried this story late on Saturday:


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 12, 2021)

Badgers said:


>


----------



## Artaxerxes (Apr 12, 2021)

Badgers said:


>




Presumably to shoot more civilians and shake hands with the UDF?


----------



## Badgers (Apr 12, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Badgers did they say anything at your briefing about what they might look for in this?
> View attachment 262879


Not a word


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 12, 2021)

Why can't Johnson get a punishment beating or kneecapped?


----------



## philosophical (Apr 12, 2021)

Saul Goodman said:


> Can you not, for a second, think why the people of Ireland might wish to distance themselves from their abusers? The same people who attempted to starve them to death? Do you think they do this because they 'don't want friends'?
> Stop living in books, and try to put yourself in the shoes of the people who suffered (and are still suffering) at the hands of the same cunts who said they should eat grass from the side of the road, and mix it with mud if the grass wasn't flavourful enough.



I was on the phone to my brother who lives in Ballycasey yesterday, prior to watching his granddaughter, my great niece, make her debut for the Republic of Ireland women’s football team away in Belgium.
Most of my holidays as a young child were spent in my mother’s village in West Cork, her father, my grandfather was a professional soldier in the Royal Munster Fusiliers where he served with Kitchener in Africa, then deserted, then rejoined under another name and fought on the Somme.
After WW1 he helped the IRA and was party to the escape of a hunted man during an incident at Rath Luric railway station. I have an Irish passport and visit the old country in it’s Western reaches at least once a year.
I have relatives who have suffered, heard many a story and listened to many a viewpoint first hand, not from books. I know about poverty and oppression, church services held in secret by generations gone by, and all the other horrors of English abuse.
My family traditionally attend Puck Fair in Killorglin celebrating a rescue from community slaughter going back centuries.
I have been aware of this stuff, and thought about it for more than a second.
What point are you trying to make?


----------



## Saul Goodman (Apr 12, 2021)

philosophical said:


> I was on the phone to my brother who lives in Ballycasey yesterday, prior to watching his granddaughter, my great niece, make her debut for the Republic of Ireland women’s football team away in Belgium.
> Most of my holidays as a young child were spent in my mother’s village in West Cork, her father, my grandfather was a professional soldier in the Royal Munster Fusiliers where he served with Kitchener in Africa, then deserted, then rejoined under another name and fought on the Somme.
> After WW1 he helped the IRA and was party to the escape of a hunted man during an incident at Rath Luric railway station. I have an Irish passport and visit the old country in it’s Western reaches at least once a year.
> I have relatives who have suffered, heard many a story and listened to many a viewpoint first hand, not from books. I know about poverty and oppression, church services held in secret by generations gone by, and all the other horrors of English abuse.
> ...


That you waffle a lot of shite?


----------



## TopCat (Apr 12, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Presumably to shoot more civilians and shake hands with the UDF?



The PSNI are not going to change much but the army? 
Would they still feel allegiance with the likes of the UDA? 

I doubt there was ever much there. The Brit army manipulated and armed and ran the so called loyalist para groups to undermine the Republican cause. I don’t feel the present UK Govt care much about it now or are ideologically opposed to an united Ireland.


----------



## philosophical (Apr 12, 2021)

Saul Goodman said:


> That you waffle a lot of shite?



In this case your opinion is wrong. My waffle is truth.


----------



## TopCat (Apr 12, 2021)

Saul Goodman said:


> That you waffle a lot of shite?


He is so Irish all your points are invalid.


----------



## philosophical (Apr 12, 2021)

TopCat said:


> He is so Irish all your points are invalid.



I didn’t say the points were invalid.
I responded to the suggestion I hadn’t thought about the Irish situation.
If anything some might well call me a plastic paddy.


----------



## TopCat (Apr 12, 2021)

philosophical said:


> I didn’t say the points were invalid.
> I responded to the suggestion I hadn’t thought about the Irish situation.
> If anything some might well call me a plastic paddy.


You have been called a few things here, rightly in my view but I don’t recollect anyone calling you that.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Apr 12, 2021)

TopCat said:


> The PSNI are not going to change much but the army?
> Would they still feel allegiance with the likes of the UDA?
> 
> I doubt there was ever much there. The Brit army manipulated and armed and ran the so called loyalist para groups to undermine the Republican cause. I don’t feel the present UK Govt care much about it now or are ideologically opposed to an united Ireland.



Depends if they all follow Gove.









						Michael Gove defends remarks he made in 2000 about Good Friday Agreement negotiations
					

CONSERVATIVE leadership hopeful Michael Gove last night said he believed the Good Friday Agreement negotiation "could have been handled in a different way".




					www.irishnews.com


----------



## TopCat (Apr 12, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Depends if they all follow Gove.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Why would they follow Gove?


----------



## philosophical (Apr 12, 2021)

TopCat said:


> You have been called a few things here, rightly in my view but I don’t recollect anyone calling you that.



I was alluding to some of the conversation above regarding nationalism.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Apr 12, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Why would they follow Gove?



Because none of the other fuckers can tie their shoes and blink at the same time


----------



## TopCat (Apr 12, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Because none of the other fuckers can tie their shoes and blink at the same time


I don’t think dismayed Army types are going to flock to Gove and encourage us back to war. It’s not just credible. Not even if Gerry Adam’s knifed the Queen on tv.


----------



## Shechemite (Apr 12, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Genuinely interested (and probably showing my ignorance here) what positions does a non-republican nationalist take?



‘we will not allow country to be governed by any foreigner of any description’

just the sort of politics we should be supporting apparently


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 12, 2021)

MadeInBedlam said:


> ‘we will not allow country to be governed by any foreigner of any description’
> 
> just the sort of politics we should be supporting apparently


you could be describing some brexit voters there


----------



## Shechemite (Apr 12, 2021)

And?


----------



## flypanam (Apr 12, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Because none of the other fuckers can tie their shoes and blink at the same time


I think you give Gove too much credit.


----------



## andysays (Apr 12, 2021)

philosophical said:


> In this case your opinion is wrong. My waffle is truth.



The truth about Brexit impact on NI...


----------



## steeplejack (Apr 12, 2021)

brogdale said:


> I see that the Mirror carried this story late on Saturday:
> 
> View attachment 262880



Driving around nationalist estates in a Hillman Avenger armed with a heavy machine gun, shooting anyone who looks likely?


----------



## steeplejack (Apr 12, 2021)

TopCat said:


> The PSNI are not going to change much but the army?
> Would they still feel allegiance with the likes of the UDA?
> 
> I doubt there was ever much there. The Brit army manipulated and armed and ran the so called loyalist para groups to undermine the Republican cause. I don’t feel the present UK Govt care much about it now or are ideologically opposed to an united Ireland.



I agree, but I think in at least the short term they have to pretend to care. The Royal perch-falling bought them ten unexpected days so I hope they are being used wisely.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Apr 12, 2021)

Some interesting observations from someone with access to senior Loyalists:









						Young loyalists need to listen to those who experienced the worst of the Troubles
					

In May 1972 Max Hastings was dispatched by the BBC to the streets of East Belfast to gauge the mood among the loyalists of the Woodstock and Ravenhill Roads after another bout of what had become an…




					gmulvenna.wordpress.com


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Apr 12, 2021)

brogdale said:


> I see that the Mirror carried this story late on Saturday:
> 
> View attachment 262880


 
Traditionally, a function of state intelligence has been more to co operate with paras deemed broadly 'sympathetic' to state aims than to undermine them. It's certainly borne out in NI. Is there any reason to think this time is different? Maybe that co operation on this occasion would be to get them to tone it down, but that's a generous reading.


----------



## TopCat (Apr 13, 2021)

Well if the death of Prince Phillip has caused the rioting to stop out of respect for several days now, can I suggest we somehow hasten the death of a royal every week until further notice?


----------



## philosophical (Apr 13, 2021)

.....or have those who voted leave finally tell us how leave will operate on the UK/EU land border of some 300 miles and 280 crossings?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 13, 2021)

philosophical said:


> .....or have those who voted leave finally tell us how leave will operate on the UK/EU land border of some 300 miles and 280 crossings?


you don't need to have voted leave to know that it will operate badly on the ~300 mile uk/eu land border

it's a bit much expecting or hoping people outside government can give you chapter and verse on this when it's clear people in government don't themselves know


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 13, 2021)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Traditionally, a function of state intelligence has been more to co operate with paras deemed broadly 'sympathetic' to state aims than to undermine them. It's certainly borne out in NI. Is there any reason to think this time is different? Maybe that co operation on this occasion would be to get them to tone it down, but that's a generous reading.


not sure about traditionally that's been a function of state intelligence. but it is most certainly a common theme in counterinsurgency.


----------



## philosophical (Apr 13, 2021)

Is it? Leave voters, many of them, say they knew what they were voting for.
I’m waiting for the big reveal....however the simmering trouble in Northern Ireland suggests there needs to be a deadline for that.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 13, 2021)

philosophical said:


> Is it? Leave voters, many of them, say they knew what they were voting for.
> I’m waiting for the big reveal....however the simmering trouble in Northern Ireland suggests there needs to be a deadline for that.


knowing what you were voting for and knowing how it's going to work can be two very different things. every time you vote you vote in the perhaps unspoken acknowledgement that the tax and benefit systems are going to continue but i don't think i'd ask you to explain some of the deeper abysses of how to minimise a company's tax exposure to me, nor would i expect you to be able to explain the terms of eligibility for jobseekers' allowance as was under any of the administrations you've voted for.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 13, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> knowing what you were voting for and knowing how it's going to work can be two very different things. every time you vote you vote in the perhaps unspoken acknowledgement that the tax and benefit systems are going to continue but i don't think i'd ask you to explain some of the deeper abysses of how to minimise a company's tax exposure to me, nor would i expect you to be able to explain the terms of eligibility for jobseekers' allowance as was under any of the administrations you've voted for.


Agree with the general tenet of what you say, but tse comparing a party mediated rep dem election with a binary plebiscite is to compare apples and oranges.

It's difficult to sustain the notion that those engaging with the referendum were not aware of some of the various upsides/downsides of their decision to vote.


----------



## andysays (Apr 13, 2021)

philosophical said:


> Is it? Leave voters, many of them, say they knew what they were voting for.
> I’m waiting for the big reveal....however the simmering trouble in Northern Ireland suggests there needs to be a deadline for that.


We all knew exactly what we were voting for, we're just deliberately keeping it a secret now to wind you up


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 13, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Agree with the general tenet of what you say, but tse comparing a party mediated rep dem election with a binary plebiscite is to compare apples and oranges.
> 
> It's difficult to sustain the notion that those engaging with the referendum were not aware of some of the various upsides/downsides of their decision to vote.


When parties stand for election they issue a manifesto outlining what you can expect from them. Similarly information was provided by each campaign, stay as well as go, about what might be expected from the referendum. It is similar in this respect to an election. My point was that even when you've a good idea what you're voting for, the mechanics of it can still be very obscure.

I am surprised by your second paragraph which says that it's hard to believe people who voted didn't know what their vote might mean, as no concrete notion of the UK's future relationship with Europe was outlined in anything but the broadest strokes.


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## Smokeandsteam (Apr 13, 2021)

A perceptive and instructive article about the working class loyalist mindset, it’s fragmented community and collective solidarity structures in comparison to working class republican zones and it’s pathology. I’m glad to see these issues are back in the wider discourse, even if some of those raising them were doing so for less than genuine reasons: 









						Young loyalists need to listen to those who experienced the worst of the Troubles
					

In May 1972 Max Hastings was dispatched by the BBC to the streets of East Belfast to gauge the mood among the loyalists of the Woodstock and Ravenhill Roads after another bout of what had become an…




					gmulvenna.wordpress.com


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## A380 (Apr 13, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Well if the death of Prince Phillip has caused the rioting to stop out of respect for several days now, can I suggest we somehow hasten the death of a royal every week until further notice?


Diminishing returns innit. By the time you got to Lady Sarah Chatto you'd get a 10 minute sin bining for one petrol bomber, like in rugby.


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## philosophical (Apr 13, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> knowing what you were voting for and knowing how it's going to work can be two very different things. every time you vote you vote in the perhaps unspoken acknowledgement that the tax and benefit systems are going to continue but i don't think i'd ask you to explain some of the deeper abysses of how to minimise a company's tax exposure to me, nor would i expect you to be able to explain the terms of eligibility for jobseekers' allowance as was under any of the administrations you've voted for.



The referendum vote was of a different kind. It was a binary choice for the whole of the UK to leave or remain.
Of course it has turned out to be a nightmare, but from my point of view those voting leave should now provide the full spec for the land border.
If they knew what they were voting for.


----------



## philosophical (Apr 13, 2021)

andysays said:


> We all knew exactly what we were voting for, we're just deliberately keeping it a secret now to wind you up


I am not so much wound up as harbouring bitter hatred for everyone who voted leave that will fester within me until I die.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 13, 2021)

philosophical said:


> The referendum vote was of a different kind. It was a binary choice for the whole of the UK to leave or remain.
> Of course it has turned out to be a nightmare, but from my point of view those voting leave should now provide the full spec for the land border.
> If they knew what they were voting for.


1) in any election as many people vote against other parties / options as for the alternative they choose. so not everyone who cast their ballot for 'leave' was voting positively for that option, a large number of people will have chosen that AGAINST the status quo - sticking two fingers up at the political establishment;
2) the cameron government promised to legislate to enact the choice made in the referendum. this legislation would be considered and passed over a period of time before (in the case of article 50) and after (in the case of any agreement reached with the eu) negotiations with brussels. it's very strange for you to believe even if people say they knew what they were voting for, that they would have an answer to every question on the outcome - be that lorry parks in kent or arrangements for the border in ireland. in addition, when people say they know what they were voting for, that doesn't mean they were voting in favour of every aspect of the future relationship with europe: or indeed any (see 1 above, where people may have been voting as much to piss off cameron, or even more so, as to depart the eu).
3) even if we were to agree that leave voters have to come up with an answer to everything, that doesn't mean that all ~17m people will come up with the same solution. there's perhaps a couple of hundred active posters here who voted leave (i've no idea how many), what happens if they come up with an equal number of solutions or proposals?


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## philosophical (Apr 13, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> 1) in any election as many people vote against other parties / options as for the alternative they choose. so not everyone who cast their ballot for 'leave' was voting positively for that option, a large number of people will have chosen that AGAINST the status quo - sticking two fingers up at the political establishment;
> 2) the cameron government promised to legislate to enact the choice made in the referendum. this legislation would be considered and passed over a period of time before (in the case of article 50) and after (in the case of any agreement reached with the eu) negotiations with brussels. it's very strange for you to believe even if people say they knew what they were voting for, that they would have an answer to every question on the outcome - be that lorry parks in kent or arrangements for the border in ireland. in addition, when people say they know what they were voting for, that doesn't mean they were voting in favour of every aspect of the future relationship with europe: or indeed any (see 1 above, where people may have been voting as much to piss off cameron, or even more so, as to depart the eu).
> 3) even if we were to agree that leave voters have to come up with an answer to everything, that doesn't mean that all ~17m people will come up with the same solution. there's perhaps a couple of hundred active posters here who voted leave (i've no idea how many), what happens if they come up with an equal number of solutions or proposals?



In answer to your last point (and I am criticised for second guessing why people voted leave by characterising them as racists) does it not come down to the simple situation that ‘leave means leave’...where every connection with the EU that is under the umbrella of the membership rules stops and finishes? Just like that if you like. On a certain day if you like.
Why does that require solutions that are anything more complex than an ‘all bets are off’ one?
Back to my opinion that those voting leave are all racists, if that is an absurd position to take because we can’t know the true motivation of all 17 million or so, shouldn’t that approach (including they voted leave to piss David Cameron off) apply to all second guessing of all voters motivation? That would bring us back to acknowledging that what we actually know is they all voted for the whole of the UK to leave the EU because that was put in writing on the ballot paper?
There was no invitation to take lemon juice or some such thing to the voting booth to squirt on the voting slip to reveal what leave really means but it was written in invisible ink.
Leave means leave, which I understand to mean exactly that, all membership requirements and protocols come to a sort of shuddering stop.
People might well have been voting against something, or for something, but the only thing we know for sure is that they voted leave or remain. I doubt the notion of lorry parks in Kent entered their consciousness, or issues of the border in Ireland, but unfortunately those practical issues are now on leave voters and they should now provide a solution that honours the vote to leave.
I invite them to provide a practical solution to a land border over 300 miles long with well over 200 crossing points and property seated in both the EU and also the UK.
They have had plenty of time to come up with an answer.
Maybe they will realise there is no answer in the light of the vote, but I doubt it.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 13, 2021)

philosophical said:


> In answer to your last point (and I am criticised for second guessing why people voted leave by characterising them as racists) does it not come down to the simple situation that ‘leave means leave’...where every connection with the EU that is under the umbrella of the membership rules stops and finishes? Just like that if you like. On a certain day if you like.
> Why does that require solutions that are anything more complex than an ‘all bets are off’ one?
> Back to my opinion that those voting leave are all racists, if that is an absurd position to take because we can’t know the true motivation of all 17 million or so, shouldn’t that approach (including they voted leave to piss David Cameron off) apply to all second guessing of all voters motivation? That would bring us back to acknowledging that what we actually know is they all voted for the whole of the UK to leave the EU because that was put in writing on the ballot paper?
> There was no invitation to take lemon juice or some such thing to the voting booth to squirt on the voting slip to reveal what leave really means but it was written in invisible ink.
> ...


1) we know (or at least we should know) that not all leave voters were or are racist. but yeh i'll accept that there will be a disproportionately large amount of racists who voted leave.
2) there will also have been quite a few racists who voted remain - people who believe what mosley believed during the years of the union movement, for example. i doubt the treatment of migrants at eu frontiers has been a turn-off for everyone who looks at the eu. and more acceptable racists like blair and cameron and may and so forth. you can't say 'you're with the racists' to the leave voters when there are very prominent racists on the remain side too.
3) on 23.6.16 no one knew that we'd end up here. a few percentage points in 2017 and we'd be looking at a very different situation. where we are now was not an inevitable outcome of the referendum. if cameron had found the backbone to remain in office and own his mess then again we might be in a different place. you might have believed leave to mean departing everything. but that's not what's happened - there hasn't been a total severance from every aspect of the eu even now.

the practical issues are not now on leave voters. the practical issues are on the government, which in a constitutional monarchy like ours is the body which turns what they perceive to be mandates into reality. unless you're arguing for the defenestration of the administration and their place to be taken by mass assemblies up and down the land in which leave voters congregate to thrash out the issues of the day. i think many remain voters (and for that matter a large number of leave supporters) would find such an idea peculiar to say the least.


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## andysays (Apr 13, 2021)

philosophical said:


> I am not so much wound up as harbouring bitter hatred for everyone who voted leave that will fester within me until I die.


Can I quote that on the "Benefits of Brexit" thread?


----------



## philosophical (Apr 13, 2021)

andysays said:


> Can I quote that on the "Benefits of Brexit" thread?



Absolutely.


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## TopCat (Apr 15, 2021)

philosophical said:


> I am not so much wound up as harbouring bitter hatred for everyone who voted leave that will fester within me until I die.


Quality. I will always think of you as Uncle Fester from now on.


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## philosophical (Apr 15, 2021)

Don’t think of me, think of the land border I believe you voted for.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 15, 2021)

philosophical said:


> Don’t think of me, think of the land border I believe you voted for.


no one alive today had a say in the creation of the border, which has been there since the 1920s, and was never put to a vote at the time.


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## philosophical (Apr 15, 2021)

In my view the benefit of the GFA was ghosting the significance of the border, those who voted brexit (knowing what they were voting for no less) has revived it’s existence and threat.
The problem is on those who voted leave, not me for repeatedly mentioning it.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 15, 2021)

philosophical said:


> In my view the benefit of the GFA was ghosting the significance of the border, those who voted brexit (knowing what they were voting for no less) has revived it’s existence and threat.
> The problem is on those who voted leave, not me for repeatedly mentioning it.


you can declare the problem is on those who voted leave until you're blue in the face. the simple fact of the matter is (as i pointed out in #573) that it's not on leave voters to come up with a solution. it's up to the government to come up with a solution. unless, as i say, you're proposing the government be defenstrated and citizens' assemblies of leavers take over.


----------



## philosophical (Apr 15, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> you can declare the problem is on those who voted leave until you're blue in the face. the simple fact of the matter is (as i pointed out in #573) that it's not on leave voters to come up with a solution. it's up to the government to come up with a solution. unless, as i say, you're proposing the government be defenstrated and citizens' assemblies of leavers take over.



Not down to me guv, but down to the government.
I don’t agree.
That comes across to me as something like a man who gets a woman pregnant, then walks away saying it’s her problem and nothing to do with them.


----------



## andysays (Apr 15, 2021)

philosophical said:


> Not down to me guv, but down to the government.
> I don’t agree.
> That comes across to me as something like a man who gets a woman pregnant, then walks away saying it’s her problem and nothing to do with them.


Of all the shit Brexit analogies I've seen, that one really takes the biscuit.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 15, 2021)

philosophical said:


> Not down to me guv, but down to the government.
> I don’t agree.
> That comes across to me as something like a man who gets a woman pregnant, then walks away saying it’s her problem and nothing to do with them.


what a daft analogy

You seem to be arguing leave voters should without reference to anyone else come up with and facilitate a solution for the border in Ireland. Can you see the EU going for this? Or the governments of the UK and Ireland? Or, for that matter, the populations of these islands? Maybe it sounded clever to you but believe me it isn't


----------



## philosophical (Apr 15, 2021)

andysays said:


> Of all the shit Brexit analogies I've seen, that one really takes the biscuit.



Aww shucks.
Thanks.


----------



## Brainaddict (Apr 15, 2021)

philosophical said:


> I am not so much wound up as harbouring bitter hatred for everyone who voted leave that will fester within me until I die.


I do not think this is doing you any good, and it is certainly polluting threads with your ranting. I know few of us are particular fans of the good lord here but he had good ideas sometimes - have you tried forgiveness? I feel like you need to take radical steps to prevent yourself becoming an annoying arsehole for the rest of your life. One of the benefits of forgiveness, besides being a good christian virtue, is that you don't have to concede that the other side were right.


----------



## andysays (Apr 15, 2021)

philosophical said:


> Aww shucks.
> Thanks.


In case there's any confusion, that wasn't intended to be a compliment


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## philosophical (Apr 15, 2021)

andysays said:


> In case there's any confusion, that wasn't intended to be a compliment



 Coming from you, allow me to thank you twice.


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## philosophical (Apr 15, 2021)

Brainaddict said:


> I do not think this is doing you any good, and it is certainly polluting threads with your ranting. I know few of us are particular fans of the good lord here but he had good ideas sometimes - have you tried forgiveness? I feel like you need to take radical steps to prevent yourself becoming an annoying arsehole for the rest of your life. One of the benefits of forgiveness, besides being a good christian virtue, is that you don't have to concede that the other side were right.



Would you suggest I await God’s good grace to grant me the ability to forgive?
Just at the moment I am obliged to concede that the other side has won.


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## philosophical (Apr 15, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> what a daft analogy
> 
> You seem to be arguing leave voters should without reference to anyone else come up with and facilitate a solution for the border in Ireland. Can you see the EU going for this? Or the governments of the UK and Ireland? Or, for that matter, the populations of these islands? Maybe it sounded clever to you but believe me it isn't


Isn’t the situation that the leave winners don’t have to reference anybody else?
Why should they, they won?


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## Smangus (Apr 15, 2021)

Brexit , the boil that keeps on lancing , or something.

So where do people who voted remain but now think leaving might not be such a bad idea after all  fit into this lexicon of bile? 

As if I need to ask.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 15, 2021)

Smangus said:


> Brexit , the boil that keeps on lancing , or something.
> 
> So where do people who voted remain but now think leaving might not be such a bad idea after all  fit into this lexicon of bile?
> 
> As if I need to ask.


philosophical has identified a specific level of hell for people like that


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## Brainaddict (Apr 15, 2021)

philosophical said:


> Would you suggest I await God’s good grace to grant me the ability to forgive?
> Just at the moment I am obliged to concede that the other side has won.


Don't tell anyone but God is a fiction really. It turns out you can forgive without him. It just requires an acceptance that people make mistakes, but that doesn't make them all bad, and....move on. Think how liberating it will be.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 15, 2021)

Brainaddict said:


> Don't tell anyone but God is a fiction really. It turns out you can forgive without him. It just requires an acceptance that people make mistakes, but that doesn't make them all bad, and....move on. Think how liberating it will be.


Philosophical's god is a jealous God who smites the unbeliever and the trespasser to the umpteenth generation so I don't think he'll be taking you up on that


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## philosophical (Apr 15, 2021)

I assume the various concepts of God are a human invention that gives comfort because usually humans fear Death.
Additionally there are things about the world humans can’t (yet) explain so they put it down to ‘God’. 
Even Issac Newton put down aspects of planetary motion to a god like agency until later scientists sussed things out better.


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## philosophical (Apr 15, 2021)

Brainaddict said:


> Don't tell anyone but God is a fiction really. It turns out you can forgive without him. It just requires an acceptance that people make mistakes, but that doesn't make them all bad, and....move on. Think how liberating it will be.



The definition of good or bad in this context does not come into it for me. It may well be more about action and reaction.


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## Brainaddict (Apr 15, 2021)

philosophical said:


> The definition of good or bad in this context does not come into it for me. It may well be more about action and reaction.


Someone knocked me off my bike the other week because she was talking to her child in the back seat. My knees still ache and I don't know if they will fully recover. Harbouring hatred will not get me anywhere though. I've done my best to help you (and the boards). I can do no more.


----------



## philosophical (Apr 15, 2021)

Brainaddict said:


> Someone knocked me off my bike the other week because she was talking to her child in the back seat. My knees still ache and I don't know if they will fully recover. Harbouring hatred will not get me anywhere though. I've done my best to help you (and the boards). I can do no more.





Brainaddict said:


> Someone knocked me off my bike the other week because she was talking to her child in the back seat. My knees still ache and I don't know if they will fully recover. Harbouring hatred will not get me anywhere though. I've done my best to help you (and the boards). I can do no more.



oops double quote.
I appreciate that you feel your suggestion is helpful.
You have made enough effort.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 15, 2021)

philosophical said:


> Isn’t the situation that the leave winners don’t have to reference anybody else?
> Why should they, they won?


But you're a remain voter therefore you think the system of government in this country should be ripped up, and taken over by leave voters


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## philosophical (Apr 15, 2021)

Should be?


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## ska invita (Apr 15, 2021)

Any chance of packing this in or moving to another thread, like the Thank You one?
 Its totally derailing and a drag to read again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again


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## Pickman's model (Apr 15, 2021)

philosophical said:


> Should be?


You're on about leave voters coming up with precise ways the border in Ireland should be operating and laughed at any suggestion that this is within the remit of the government.


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## philosophical (Apr 15, 2021)

The government is supposed to be a get brexit done one.
They aren’t.
So maybe the government need detailed workable suggestions from leave voters.
Many say they knew what they were voting for, so perhaps it’s time to stop keeping it a secret.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 15, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Any chance of packing this in or moving to another thread, like the Thank You one?
> Its totally derailing and a drag to read again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again


It's rather different now philosophical is advocating mob rule


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Apr 15, 2021)

Saul Goodman said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I was always told (by a friend of mine) that Churchill remarked about the starving Welsh miners of 1910  "let them eat grass". I don't know if theres any actual evidence for that though.

I think he definitely did say about filling their bellies with lead.

The last thing queen Victoria's uncle or Churchill would have been found eating is fucking grass though eh!


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## Pickman's model (Apr 15, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> I was always told that Churchill remarked about the starving Welsh miners of 1910  "let them eat grass". I don't know if theres any actual evidence for that though.
> 
> I think he definitely did say about filling their bellies with lead though.
> 
> The last thing the queen Victoria's uncle or Churchill would be caught eating is fucking grass though eh!


 specially as they've been dead so long


----------



## BobDavis (Apr 17, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> You're on about leave voters coming up with precise ways the border in Ireland should be operating and laughed at any suggestion that this is within the remit of the government.


I would think the vast majority of leave voters are as much in favour of a united Ireland as you are. The only difference is you care about Ireland & they don’t. I would guess most people who are not in favour of a united Ireland live there.


----------



## TopCat (Apr 17, 2021)

Cross-border trade in Ireland 'has increased dramatically' in 2021
					

Ireland's Central Statistics Office suggests cross-border trade has increased dramatically in 2021.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## brogdale (Apr 17, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Cross-border trade in Ireland 'has increased dramatically' in 2021
> 
> 
> Ireland's Central Statistics Office suggests cross-border trade has increased dramatically in 2021.
> ...


Not like you to big up the merits of the single market.


----------



## BobDavis (Apr 17, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Cross-border trade in Ireland 'has increased dramatically' in 2021
> 
> 
> Ireland's Central Statistics Office suggests cross-border trade has increased dramatically in 2021.
> ...


Not quite what it appears. This will be a result of companies that operate in EU & UK changing their procedures. For example instead of importing into UK from EU & then sending goods to NI they will be sending goods from EU to Roi then to NI. For example a truck can enter UK from Holland & transit UK to ship to Dublin with no holdups. It will be mostly work arounds that will develop over time. Plenty of this will be the major supermarkets.


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## brogdale (Apr 17, 2021)

BobDavis said:


> Not quite what it appears. This will be a result of companies that operate in EU & UK changing their procedures. For example instead of importing into UK from EU & then sending goods to NI they will be sending goods from EU to Roi then to NI. For example a truck can enter UK from Holland & transit UK to ship to Dublin with no holdups. It will be mostly work arounds that will develop over time. Plenty of this will be the major supermarkets.


But greater % increase in the other direction?


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## Pickman's model (Apr 17, 2021)

Wonder how smuggling has done


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## BobDavis (Apr 17, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Wonder how smuggling has done


I would guess  criminals the world over are rubbing their hands with glee here. It exposes the lie that brexit was going to make our borders more secure. It was only ever going to make them more porous.


----------



## BobDavis (Apr 17, 2021)

brogdale said:


> But greater % increase in the other direction?


Much the same. Just work arounds by large organisations doing business internationally. It is governments & the EU that throw their toys out of the pram. Business just gets on with making money.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 17, 2021)

BobDavis said:


> Much the same. Just work arounds by large organisations doing business internationally. It is governments & the EU that throw their toys out of the pram. Business just gets on with making money.


Or, possibly, simply compensatory sourcing following the imposition of the sea border (as suggested in the linked piece)?



> Northern Ireland has remained in the EU's single market for goods, which means that products arriving from Great Britain are subject to new checks and controls.
> 
> Goods arriving from Great Britain into the Republic of Ireland face similar processes.
> However, goods trade across the Irish border remains as it was before Brexit, with no new checks and controls.
> That may have prompted some businesses to source more products on the island of Ireland rather than from GB.


----------



## BobDavis (Apr 17, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Or, possibly, simply compensatory sourcing following the imposition of the sea border (as suggested in the linked piece)?


Food distribution & retail companies that operate internationally will have changed their procedures. Pre brexit they may have imported from Roi to UK then consolidated deliveries & sent them as parts of mixed loads from UK to NI. Now they will be supplying NI direct from Roi.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 17, 2021)

BobDavis said:


> Food distribution & retail companies that operate internationally will have changed their procedures. Pre brexit they may have imported from Roi to UK then consolidated deliveries & sent them as parts of mixed loads from UK to NI. Now they will be supplying NI direct from Roi.


Almost as though the island of Ireland is one single market with a border between it and GB?


----------



## BobDavis (Apr 17, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Almost as though the island of Ireland is one single market with a border between it and GB?


Which is what it is. International companies adapt & continue to make profits. This is why you do not hear many people at the top of these companies denouncing brexit. They personally might believe it is a stupid idea but people still need to eat & their companies will continue to prosper. I think with brexit the main impact will be on the heart not the head.


----------



## andysays (Apr 17, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Not like you to big up the merits of the single market.


TopCat is fairly open about his support for a united Ireland, so I'm sure he won't be too concerned about increase on cross border trade.

But it does appear to disprove all the doom and gloom we've had suggesting that Brexit would end up starving people in Ireland, akin to a 21st century potato famine.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Apr 17, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Wonder how smuggling has done


Looking forward to Slab turning his border-straddling farm into a big box superstore


----------



## brogdale (Apr 17, 2021)

andysays said:


> TopCat is fairly open about his support for a united Ireland, so I'm sure he won't be too concerned about increase on cross border trade.
> 
> But it does appear to disprove all the doom and gloom we've had suggesting that Brexit would end up starving people in Ireland, akin to a 21st century potato famine.


Which is fine.
But, being in favour of the capitalists of one country operating within the supra-state's single market appears to undermine the logic of opposition to such an arrangement for another, no?


----------



## andysays (Apr 17, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Which is fine.
> But, being in favour of the capitalists of one country operating within the supra-state's single market appears to undermine the logic of opposition to such an arrangement for another, no?


You'll have be a bit clearer what point you're making here.

I never expected Brexit to bring about the end of international capitalism, the end of the EU single market or the end of trade between Britain and remaining EU countries, so the continuation of these things is neither a surprise or a disappointment to me.


----------



## Yossarian (Apr 17, 2021)

andysays said:


> it does appear to disprove all the doom and gloom we've had suggesting that Brexit would end up starving people in Ireland, akin to a 21st century potato famine.



So doomsayers who predicted Brexit would cause food shortages were disproved by ...  staying in the single market and not having food shortages?


----------



## brogdale (Apr 17, 2021)

andysays said:


> You'll have be a bit clearer what point you're making here.
> 
> I never expected Brexit to bring about the end of international capitalism, the end of the EU single market or the end of trade between Britain and remaining EU countries, so the continuation of these things is neither a surprise or a disappointment to me.


It doesn't seem to make much sense to welcome the fact that cross-border trade in Ireland has increased dramatically within the supra-state's single market when opposing such an arrangement for the rest of the UK.
A matter of logic, really?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 17, 2021)

brogdale said:


> It doesn't seem to make much sense to welcome the fact that cross-border trade in Ireland has increased dramatically within the supra-state's single market when opposing such an arrangement for the rest of the UK.
> A matter of logic, really?


Perhaps you underestimate the role of the irrational in politics


----------



## andysays (Apr 17, 2021)

brogdale said:


> It doesn't seem to make much sense to welcome the fact that cross-border trade in Ireland has increased dramatically within the supra-state's single market when opposing such an arrangement for the rest of the UK.
> A matter of logic, really?


Voting Leave doesn't necessarily mean someone opposes Britain remaining in the single market but, more importantly, it obviously doesn't preclude wanting to see a united Ireland.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 17, 2021)

andysays said:


> Voting Leave doesn't necessarily mean someone opposes Britain remaining in the single market but, more importantly, it obviously doesn't preclude wanting to see a united Ireland.


No, I suppose not.
I guess I was assuming no to the former and yes to the latter.


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## Yossarian (Apr 17, 2021)

andysays said:


> Voting Leave doesn't necessarily mean someone opposes Britain remaining in the single market



It did about 99.9% of the time though, tbf.


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## ska invita (Apr 17, 2021)

andysays said:


> But it does appear to disprove all the doom and gloom we've had suggesting that Brexit would end up starving people in Ireland, akin to a 21st century potato famine.


 
POW!!! Another straw man destroyed


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## Yossarian (Apr 17, 2021)

ska invita said:


> POW!!! Another straw man destroyed



"I'm alive, which does appear to disprove all the doom and gloom we've had suggesting Brexit would be an extinction-level event akin to the meteorite that killed the dinosaurs."


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## brogdale (Apr 17, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> "I'm alive, which does appear to disprove all the doom and gloom we've had suggesting Brexit would be an extinction-level event akin to the meteorite that killed the dinosaurs."


_Despite Brexit..._


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## ska invita (Apr 17, 2021)

this NI border issue will really become a problem when Britain "diverges" from EU standards


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## Pickman's model (Apr 17, 2021)

ska invita said:


> this NI border issue will really become a problem when Britain "diverges" from EU standards


We already have as the dire quality of our politicians shows.


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## BobDavis (Apr 17, 2021)

andysays said:


> Voting Leave doesn't necessarily mean someone opposes Britain remaining in the single market but, more importantly, it obviously doesn't preclude wanting to see a united Ireland.


It is difficult to see how leaving the EU without leaving the single market/customs union is actually leaving. We would have had to pay for access & not had a seat at the table. What could possibly have gone wrong ? I think most English would be ok with a united Ireland because for most English Ireland is not even on their radar.


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## philosophical (Apr 17, 2021)

I agree with the post above. It looks like what is supposed to be the leave that was voted for isn't happening (so far). Some kind of rubbish stuff is happening but only those well versed in doublethink could call it brexit...or leave.
I hope the returning brexit busting ships return to the Republic full of whatever most pissed the UK off and gets shoved across the 'border' into the UK in order to undermine and piss off as much as possible.
Especially everybody lurking around northern Europe hoping to get into the UK.
Be nice if the route through Ireland was somehow exploited to help those people and give Farage an anuresim.


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## flypanam (Apr 18, 2021)

Interesting piece here, a journalist actually talks to wc class protestants who seem to feel betrayed by their 'community' leaders, exploited by the hard men and have a sense of despair and hopelessness. The protocol is a useful cover for the much more complex fracturing of unionism. Worth a read The North: ‘Riots stopped because Prince Andrew or Philip or something – he’s dead’


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## miktheword (Apr 18, 2021)

flypanam said:


> Interesting piece here, a journalist actually talks to wc class protestants who seem to feel betrayed by their 'community' leaders, exploited by the hard men and have a sense of despair and hopelessness. The protocol is a useful cover for the much more complex fracturing of unionism. Worth a read The North: ‘Riots stopped because Prince Andrew or Philip or something – he’s dead’




McKay is good, had an article in the Guardian last week as well. The class aspect seems to be increasingly highlighted not only by her but by other voices, most importantly from working class loyalists both in articles and in call in shows over here. 
A common theme is a recognition that their leaders are letting them down, don't care due to class differences, contrasting with the community organisation and leadership amongst similar working class areas like The Falls, Ardoyne where housing seems to be springing up contrasted with waste grounds left on The Shankhill. 
No idea if an increased class consciousness will lead anywhere, The Orange Card usually prevails and marching season isn't far off.


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## Badgers (Apr 20, 2021)

#thiswillgowell 









						Majority believes NI will leave UK within 25 years - BBC News
					

People on both sides of the Irish border were polled for centenary programme.




					www.bbc.co.uk


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## philosophical (Apr 20, 2021)

So Johnson is now against the UK leaving the EU after his get brexit done election.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 20, 2021)

philosophical said:


> So Johnson is now against the UK leaving the EU after his get brexit done election.


don't think he'd have been elected if he'd stood on a return / remain platform


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## ska invita (Apr 20, 2021)

Badgers said:


> #thiswillgowell
> 
> 
> 
> ...


exactly to Tory plan then - ignore the border, scrap the protocol, force the EU's hand, the EUs only choice is to go down the court>sanction route.
tories get to blame the EU, the question becomes what the sanctions will be, and how that might escalate.
....this all gets ramped up in the future when the UK diverges on standards. 

Have to hand it to the Tories though, they've managed to find a way to resolve the impossibility of their situation by driving a bulldozer through legal obligations. I guess the signs were always there....


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## flypanam (Apr 20, 2021)

ska invita said:


> exactly to Tory plan then - ignore the border, scrap the protocol, force the EU's hand, the EUs only choice is to go down the court>sanction route.
> tories get to blame the EU, the question becomes what the sanctions will be, and how that might escalate.
> ....this all gets ramped up in the future when the UK diverges on standards.
> 
> Have to hand it to the Tories though, they've managed to find a way to resolve the impossibility of their situation by driving a bulldozer through legal obligations. I guess the signs were always there....


Smells of expediency. It's another Johnson promise which is about as useful as still shit stained toilet paper. NI doesn't matter to the tories, doesn't play well in the tory fartlands. If anything his dithering is stirring up more trouble. The longterm effect of this move won't play well with the protestant farmers of North Down or Antrim lots of dairy is milked in the north and processed in the south and vice versa and will put rural WC protestants out of work too. Will stir up nationalist discontent, will probably lead to trouble on the streets. All the while confirming internationally that England's hand in Ireland is fucking dirty, will create sympathy for Dublin (and the cute hoors in FFG will milk it, to distract from their own shit handling of the pandemic) and, build further distrust of the word of the uk in any situation.

His only play is to fuck over political unionism and let the trouble play out and stay contained in the loyalist council estates. Further fracturing unionism.


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## Artaxerxes (Apr 20, 2021)

ska invita said:


> exactly to Tory plan then - ignore the border, scrap the protocol, force the EU's hand, the EUs only choice is to go down the court>sanction route.
> tories get to blame the EU, the question becomes what the sanctions will be, and how that might escalate.
> ....this all gets ramped up in the future when the UK diverges on standards.
> 
> Have to hand it to the Tories though, they've managed to find a way to resolve the impossibility of their situation by driving a bulldozer through legal obligations. I guess the signs were always there....



"Breaking international law in a very specific and targeted way"


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## TopCat (Apr 20, 2021)

Ultimately the unionists can go and fuck themselves.


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## Smokeandsteam (Apr 21, 2021)

Excellent article by Matt Treacy in the TPQ:


*Violence In The North ➖ Unlike The Political Parties, The ‘Most Deprived’ Areas Have Gained Little In 23 Years*


In the week that marked the 23rd anniversary of the signing of the Good Friday Agreement on April 10, 1998, the loyalist violence in Belfast underlined the fact that little has changed regarding the fundamental nature of society in the north of Ireland.

It is unlikely that many of the people taking part in the violence have even the vaguest notion about the Northern Ireland Protocol. The UDA, which is alleged to have encouraged the rioting, found all of that a convenient means of hitting back over the recent crackdown on the real business of many erstwhile loyalist paramilitaries, which is not loyalism but drug dealing.

The anti-social elements who otherwise look and act no differently to disruptive elements in any urban society have the atavism of centuries of settler hatred to add to the mix. The unlikely threat to their “culture” and “employment” is not of course the EU, or “Dublin” or even Boris Johnson. It is as it has always been since the “economic migrancy” began in Ulster 500 years ago – them ‘uns’. Fenian Bastards.

Them ‘uns’ in Belfast have had to put up with this for a long time. The loyalist death squads were stood down after the IRA ceasefire, but just to be on the safe side, the “peace walls” remain. Which is just as well.

Not surprisingly, Catholics living close to where the loyalist violence was taking place were apprehensive and aware of the need that, given the past history of such things, that they might once again be thrown back on their own resources. They also have a well grounded lack of trust in the police to provide any protection. Historically, the worst assaults on their communities were often led, or facilitated by, members of the police force.

So there was understandable scepticism when Sinn Féin leaders told them to place their trust in the Police Service of Northern Ireland to deal with the threat posed. More than that, Sinn Féin leader Mary Lou McDonald met with the PSNI Chief Constable last Thursday and assured him of her party’s support as “the police work to ensure communities are kept safe.”

Fair enough. This is what you expect of any party that is part of government. As Sinn Féin are, in coalition with the Democratic Unionist Party in the north as a regional administration under overall British control. It is noteworthy that almost a quarter of a century after the ceasefire there has been no change to the constitutional position of the six counties.

The organised violence has ended and that is a good thing. Anyone on the loyalist or republican side seeking to revive all of that is either an idiot, or has ulterior motives. The ceasefires leading to the Good Friday Agreement (GFA) were welcome and right, but apart from the changed political landscape, the basics structures as they were in 1998, remain in 2021. Set in aspic even, if the events of the last week or so are any indication.

It is no secret that British strategists believed that the GFA and the “benign corruption” of drawing anti-system organisations into the institutions of the state, would eventually neutralise the appeal of a united Ireland. Or at the very least persuade sufficient numbers of people within the Catholic community that it was something that could be placed on the long finger and achieved eventually – although this was sold as “within ten years” back in 1994 – through politics.

The political parties that administer the north have certainly benefitted from what followed. It would not seem that the people whose communities were at the centre of the conflict have gained much from the “peace dividend”, however.

These are the places which are dominated by Sinn Féin on the Catholic side, and by the DUP on the Protestant side. Although in Protestant working class areas there is a parallel criminal culture run by loyalist groups whose payoff was not political power, but generally a blind eye turned to their drug and other enterprises.

Pretty vast amounts of money per capita have been pumped into working class Belfast through the mediums of “community groups” dominated by either Sinn Féin or the UDA or UVF. NGOism clad in retro-paramilitary chic.

Like much of the money that goes into the bottomless pit of the NGOs, the northern peace buck delivers little bang. No bang at all of course in conflict terms, and negligible impact in terms of bettering the communities it is supposed to benefit.

So compounded with the fact that Sinn Féin and the DUP have been totally useless in bringing real jobs to the places that elect them, they are not even efficient at making things better for their dependents, on whose behalf they mediate with the state.

Every study of deprivation within the United Kingdom (which includes Northern Ireland no matter what the subsidised murals tell you) since the GFA was signed has shown that the places represented by these parties preform the worst of any other electoral areas in the entirety of the UK.

A study of all constituencies published in December 2019 underlined that once more. It found that 3 of the 10 most deprived of the 650 Westminster constituencies were in the north of Ireland, and these were the predominantly Catholic and predominantly Sinn Féin voting West Belfast, North Belfast and Foyle.

Within those constituencies – as measured in an index of the 20 most deprived local election wards – are 15 overwhelmingly Catholic areas such as the Brandywell, Creggan and Ardoyne. In addition, four of the areas are the similarly overwhelmingly Protestant working class wards of Woodvale and Shankill – the latter being where most of the loyalist violence took place.

Meanwhile, it is reported today that it will take 20 years to clear the housing waiting list in the north at the current rate of builds. Sinn Féin hold the Ministry for Communities which is responsible for this mess. Rather than blaming someone else, or claiming that it is not their fault they should do the decent thing and clear their desks.

But hey, let’s be realistic here. There will be losers in the Ireland of Equals. Some day you might get to work for a non-union minimum wage paying Comrade on whom Peace and Equality has beamed kindly. Or if you are really good, you might get a job with some community group doing community stuff, for the community. The Community of Equals.

Interestingly, while throwing in the gratuitous reference to “a future no longer defined by partition”, people like Comrade Declan Kearney make no reference whatsoever to anything regarding the economic and social realities of the places that elect his party’s MLAs, MPs and councillors.

Oh sure, that would be nothing to do with them Boss. They’ve just run those places for 50 years, 20 of them as part of the state. Just imagine the faux outrage of Sinn Féin if some Government TD or minister in the south was to make out that endemic unemployment, high suicide rates, anti-social behaviour, drug dealing, housing shortages and so on in Moyross or Knocknaheeny or Tallaght had nothing to do with them?


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## andysays (Apr 28, 2021)

Arlene Foster: Leadership of DUP hangs in the balance


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## Pickman's model (Apr 28, 2021)

andysays said:


> Arlene Foster: Leadership of DUP hangs in the balance


Sadly not a proper hanging


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## Badgers (Apr 28, 2021)

Interesting thread on Twotter this


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## flypanam (Apr 28, 2021)

Is there any stone unturned that Ben Habib is not hiding under?


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## ska invita (May 16, 2021)

Kind of interesting bleating article in the Sunday telegraph today








						Northern Ireland Protocol 'dead in the water', senior ally of Boris Johnson says
					

Lord Frost, the Prime Minister’s Brexit negotiator, has privately set a July 12 target date to end the chaos of cross-border checks




					www.telegraph.co.uk
				



mood music for the coming crunch end of grace period. No solutions offered in that piece, just moaning.
the tories clearly want to wish away the border, and are trying to use the Good Friday agreement as justification. 
Clock is ticking....
"There are fears among senior figures that unless the EU [lol] eases checks in time for when the marching season reaches its peak on July 12, tensions could flare.


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## ska invita (Jun 30, 2021)

grace period extended to september








						Brexit: EU postpones ban on British meat sales in NI
					

The proposed ban on items like fresh sausages was a consequence of the Northern Ireland Protocol.



					www.bbc.co.uk
				




this is interesting:
Meanwhile judgement is due in a court challenge to the lawfulness of the protocol.
The judicial review proceeding were taken by a group of unionist politicians.
They told the High Court in Belfast that the Protocol breached both the Good Friday Agreement and the Acts of Union.


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## philosophical (Jun 30, 2021)

Simply ask a fucking lexiter for their workable peaceful solution.
Or possibly file them under  political poseurs.


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## Raheem (Jun 30, 2021)

ska invita said:


> grace period extended to september
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They lost, it seems.


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## The39thStep (Jun 30, 2021)

You can get chilled meat and sausage from Brazil  and Argentina over here , neither of whom obviously are  in the EU


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## Raheem (Jun 30, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> You can get chilled meat and sausage from Brazil  and Argentina over here , neither of whom obviously are  in the EU


Are you sure it doesn't come into the country frozen (probable, considering the distance)?


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## Pickman's model (Jun 30, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> You can get chilled meat and sausage from Brazil  and Argentina over here , neither of whom obviously are  in the EU


i don't suppose that brazil and argentina ship all that much to derry or belfast. or dublin or cork, for that matter.


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## MrSki (Jun 30, 2021)

Raheem said:


> They lost, it seems.


I think the case will be appealed & end up in the Supreme Court.


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## The39thStep (Jun 30, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Are you sure it doesn't come into the country frozen (probable, considering the distance)?


I havent a clue . I dont think the large packets of fillet steak do as there is nothing on the label that says its been frozen . I'll ask at the butchers I go in .


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## Pickman's model (Jun 30, 2021)

MrSki said:


> I think the case will be appealed & end up in the Supreme Court.


's dustbin


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## Raheem (Jun 30, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> I havent a clue . I dont think the large packets of fillet steak do as there is nothing on the label that says its been frozen . I'll ask at the butchers I go in .


Anyway, a quick Google suggests that non-EU countries can import fresh meat into the EU, provided they agree to apply EU food safety standards. The issue is that GB doesn't wanna.


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## The39thStep (Jun 30, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Anyway, a quick Google suggests that non-EU countries can import fresh meat into the EU, provided they agree to apply EU food safety standards. The issue is that GB doesn't wanna.


Thanks saves me practising 'Is the beeef from Brazil frozen when it arrives in Portugal' on google translate for 30 mins before I went to the butchers.


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## Saul Goodman (Jun 30, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> i don't suppose that brazil and argentina ship all that much to derry or belfast. or dublin or cork, for that matter.


Surprisingly, and sadly, Ireland does import beef from Brazil, despite us producing 10x more beef than we eat. It makes no sense to me, but it's probably low quality low price meat for processing into cheap products.


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