# St Athan



## Dic Penderyn (Jul 9, 2007)

What do people think the chances of this massive training facility being housed there being put off? Seems lots of military people don't wanna move to south wales.

Anyway theres the beginnings of a campagin against it:
http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2007/07/375464.html


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## llantwit (Jul 9, 2007)

How did the CND called thing go on the weekend?
Isn't it a bit late - thought it was already decided?


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## ddraig (Jul 9, 2007)

Ath*a*n mate, pm someone to change it before some dullard comes and takes the piss


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## lewislewis (Jul 10, 2007)

I've decided to oppose this development. The area is fine as it is, if £1.5billion investment was coming to Wales i'd rather it not to be military and to be spent on the environment or the infrastructure.

I'm concerned it will tie Wales into the UK military set up more than ever. I also believe the SNP government in Scotland will somehow prevent Trident from being placed there, and I believe the UK government will move it to Wales (with the command HQ at St.Athans).

If there are any campaigns to oppose this i'll participate, I fear it's too late though.

Edit- Could I please get a list of states that have banned investment in Raytheon???


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## teqniq (Jul 10, 2007)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> Edit- Could I please get a list of states that have banned investment in Raytheon???



All of them? Is that too much to ask?


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## Dic Penderyn (Jul 10, 2007)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> If there are any campaigns to oppose this i'll participate, I fear it's too late though.




 There is a campaign: www.cynefinywerin.org.uk

It's not too late, there are other back up options available to the Metrix corporation to the house the development elsewhere.

Theres a good short article on the issue here (recommended reading).


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## lewislewis (Jul 10, 2007)

teqniq said:
			
		

> All of them? Is that too much to ask?



I couldn't find anything on Google, just thought someone might be able to help me.


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## llantwit (Jul 10, 2007)

You might find something on Corporate Watch's Raytheon page:
http://www.corporatewatch.org.uk/?lid=138
Or at least a link to another doc with the info you want.
You could also try e-mailing them or giving them a ring (corporate watch, not Raytheon ). They might know something or point you in the right direction.


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## Col_Buendia (Aug 23, 2007)

Meeting tonight at the Temple of Peace at 5pm.

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2007/08/377904.html

Plus visit to St Athan to have a look at the location.


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## Gromit (Aug 23, 2007)

Since when has the government given a shit what its employees think?
I wouldn't be working where I am now if they did.
They can piss and moan all they like but they are going.


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## Col_Buendia (Aug 23, 2007)

For sure. But (a) if 5,00 new jobs were promised, and then suddenly it is a question of people relocating, someone has been telling porkies about the job creation.

And, (b) if people are moving here from places where houses are substantially cheaper (not hard with current S. Wales house price madness), then they will end up paying for the privilege of relocation.


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## Gromit (Aug 23, 2007)

Col_Buendia said:
			
		

> For sure. But (a) if 5,00 new jobs were promised, and then suddenly it is a question of people relocating, someone has been telling porkies about the job creation.
> 
> And, (b) if people are moving here from places where houses are substantially cheaper (not hard with current S. Wales house price madness), then they will end up paying for the privilege of relocation.


 
The new jobs figure will no doubt include construction jobs etc. before the building is complete, catering, security and maintenance for the site (through local contracts) and local jobs as relocated staff leave through natural wastage over time.


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## felixthecat (Aug 30, 2007)

I work at St Athan - nothings gonna stop the move now short of  a major species destroying event. St Athan is going to be the big purple training establishment for the armed forces - REME are shutting down their Borden training base and moving over in the next couple of years, and  HMS Nelson and probably a whole bunch from RAF Lyneham soon after. Not sure who else, but its gong to be a major training centre for engineers and techie types. I also think the special forces support group will remain there are well - close enough to the training sites in Brecon

I think its also going to house a specialist rehabilitation unit for special forces - the rehab and gym facilities are amazing .


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## Karac (Aug 31, 2007)

I dont think its going to happen
There will be 1 possibly 2 changes of UK Govt before the place is going to open
A lot of support staff in other parts of the UK are none too happy about 
1- relocating to South Wales
2-working for a PFI MOD outsourced company with poor pay and conditions


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## Udo Erasmus (Sep 10, 2007)

Well, it's official Leanne Wood AM has declined to support the campaign.

Plaid: Whether they call themselves socialists or not, refuse to oppose St Athan's (they can jet up to Faslane but not oppose the War on Terror in their own backyard)

New Labour: Don't go there!

Wales Green Party: won't speak out because of the "jobs".

That leaves only one remaining party in Wales prepared to take a principled stand against militarism and war and oppose the Academy.

For more info, see:
www.cardiffrespect.blogspot.com

Another Wales is Possible!


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## Col_Buendia (Sep 10, 2007)

Udo Erasmus said:
			
		

> Well, it's official Leanne Wood AM has declined to support the campaign.
> 
> 
> For more info, see:
> ...



Source?

And I did check the blog - fucking awful the layout is too - and no, there wasn't any further information on there.


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## Udo Erasmus (Sep 10, 2007)

What don't you like about the layout specifically? Constructive criticism is welcome.  

LW was invited to support the campaign against the Military Academy by Cynefin Y Werin, she declined.  But why be surprised?  With Plaid now in government propping up New Labour, no Plaid AM is going to be prepared to publicly break ranks and cause any trouble, afterall it might strike a discordant note in the illusion they are trying to convince each other of - that Wales is now under a "progressive" administration.  CND Cymru have been campaigning against this, but have you heard the Chair of CND Cymru say anything about St Athan's?

In fact, not a single elected Plaid representative has made any public statement of opposition to the militarisation of Wales.

For that matter, with the exception of Cllr. Ray Davies, no elected representative of _any party _(as far as I am aware) has been prepared to publicly ask why £16 billion is being spent not on eliminating poverty or the health in Wales but on oiling the British War machine.


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## Dic Penderyn (Sep 10, 2007)

*here we go:*




			
				Conerned member of the public said:
			
		

> Sent: 10 August 2007 20:15
> To: leanne.wood@wales.gov.uk
> Subject: St Athan Military Academy
> 
> ...






			
				Wood said:
			
		

> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: RE: St Athan Military Academy
> Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 14:21:42 +0100
> From: Wood, Leanne (Assembly Member) <Leanne.Wood@wales.gov.uk>
> ...



expect an indept "what do you expect" type article in the next Gagged!


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## Col_Buendia (Sep 11, 2007)

Glad to see someone understands what the word "source" means. Ta.

Good to know that exporting Pontcanna's empty organic smoothie containers to the developing world is not ok, but sending landmines isn't worth protesting about


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## Udo Erasmus (Sep 11, 2007)

The reply is all smoke and mirrors.  It all seems to be consistent with LWs position put at a public meeting that in thanks for Gordon Brown providing the dosh for the One Wales Plaid/Labour coalition, people should refrain from criticising Brown on non-devolved issues, lest Brown withholds said dosh. 

Smoke and mirrors.

For example, it does the old line that it's not a "devolved" issue, trotted out by Rhodri Morgan (to avoid commenting on Iraq) and Ieuan Wyn Jones, supporter of new Nukes in Wales, (to explain why unlike every previous Plaid Assembly election manifesto this year's didn't mention opposition to Nuclear power)

The mention of Westminster and that the Military Academy was supported by "the previous government" is also an attempt to _gloss over _that Plaid have *publicly and slavishly supported St Athan's*.

The mention of supporting "peaceful protest" is a little reactionary too - surely this is a term used by liberals and the establishment?  There are several "unpeaceful" protests that I would be happy to endorse: The poll tax riots spring to mind.  Also some of the mass protests called by the Anti-Nazi League that physically drove the fascists of the streets.  But LW did say on Question Time that she would defend the Nazis right to freedom of speech, so maybe she wouldn't support those kind of protests?

Finally, you will note that she manages to actually avoid saying anywhere explicity and unequivocally that she thinks that the Military Academy is a bad thing, or would oppose it if she felt that protest could be "effective".

Anyway, that's the end of my brief attempt at "deconstruction".  In a word, jetting up to Faslane in Scottland is good for PR, protesting the war on terror in our own backyard is not good PR.

As I mentioned Ray Davies is the only elected politician to have publicly been prepared to oppose the Military Academy,  anyone know of any others?


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## lewislewis (Sep 12, 2007)

Udo, off topic but just a side issue, how did Ieuan Wyn Jones trot out the 'it is not a devolved issue' line regarding nuclear power? The opposite is true. By Rhodri Morgan's logic IWJ didn't have to state an opinion but went out of his way to do so.


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## llantwit (Sep 12, 2007)

Can you tell us anything about the internal debate around this issue within Plaid LewisLewis? I'm curious. Jill Evans was at the last anti-St Athan meeting. Has she said anything about where she stands on this? I was assuming she was against because she was there.


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## Dic Penderyn (Sep 12, 2007)

I'm guessing it all comes down to Plaid-ites thinking:
"When we're independant we can keep our armed forces there, all them lovely english toys, yum!"


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## Udo Erasmus (Sep 12, 2007)

llantwit said:
			
		

> Can you tell us anything about the internal debate around this issue within Plaid LewisLewis? I'm curious. Jill Evans was at the last anti-St Athan meeting. Has she said anything about where she stands on this? I was assuming she was against because she was there.



The key thing is a _public_ statement.

If Jill Evans wanted to, she could get a press released published in the Western Mail tomorrow opposing or expressing concerns about the Military Academy. Has she?

The only elected representative to have opposed St Athan's in local media is Ray Davies.

A couple of Plaid councillors are on the mailing list I receive from the campaign - have they made any public statements?

No.


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## Col_Buendia (Sep 12, 2007)

Plaid councillors have about as much impact on Whitehall as you have on the internet using public of Cardiff dear Udo.


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## niclas (Sep 13, 2007)

Udo Erasmus said:
			
		

> The key thing is a _public_ statement.
> 
> If Jill Evans wanted to, she could get a press released published in the Western Mail tomorrow opposing or expressing concerns about the Military Academy. Has she?



So an MEP making a public statement will stop the School for Slaughter? The Key issue... Really?

I find it interesting that rather than discussing how we stop the St Athan deal - is anyone down in Cardiff talking to the PCS about joint work? - there's an unhealthy obsession with one political party's stance.

Plaid's got it all wrong on this issue and it's not too late to campaign along with the unions and local people on the various issues of concern.


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## Udo Erasmus (Sep 13, 2007)

This really is feeble even by your standards Niclas.

Are you really arguing that the position of a party in government in the Welsh Assembly, the second biggest party in Wales is of no significance?

If prominent politicians in Wales publicly opposed St Athan's, do you not think this would raise the profile of the campaign?  Respect sent press releases to the local press when the contract was first being discussed - but a small party has trouble gettng press coverage (the press releases were not printed!), the Deputy Leader of Plaid has a media platform.

As it happens a Respect member who is Vice-Chair of PCS Wales has raised the issue at union meetings, unfortunately the right wing of the Union used IWJs argument about jobs.  If Plaid and Labour left wingers had taken a strong stance against St Athan's it would have strengthened the hand of trade unionists who want to raise this in their union.

In the media (that inevitably helps shape public opinion) debates are framed within the terms of the mainstream parties. If Plaid had opposed St Athan's it would have helped exert pressure on Rhodri Morgan.

But Plaid are a capitalist party like the others and their "anti-war" stance is expendable especially as they are now propping up an ailing new labour administration.

What a disgrace that a Plaid left winger won't condemn a military academy in Wales!

This is not an aberation (as Niclas tries to claim) But flows from the kind of politics of class collaboration that nationalism represents.


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## Udo Erasmus (Sep 13, 2007)

To Col_Buendia, you are correct that councillors have little influence on Whitehall.  But if Plaid Councillors (one of whom I mentioned is now the Chief Executive of Plaid) came out publicly against St Athan's it would sharpen the debate within the party and put pressure on AMs and MEPs to come out publicly.


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## lewislewis (Sep 14, 2007)

I think it is a shame that no proper campaign can now be built against it because I would rather the academy did not come to St. Athan, even despite the jobs etc. 

There is an argument that public statements by Plaid MEP/Am's/councillors would raise the profile of the debate but it has much less chance of succeeding than, say, the anti-war movement had of succeeding. The reason I am not bothered or concerned though about criticisms from the far-left is because in my experience they are not in it for the long haul in terms of building Wales, they just want to recruit members and sell papers, which is even more of a sell out than the view of some leading Plaid members. I'm not saying this as an unfounded slur either because I was quite heavily involved in the SWP- although not a member I did attend three of your meetings out of curiosity and excitement, I know the ideas that are at work and the attitude taken towards other parties of all colours.

And again, it isn't Plaid that's bringing the academy to Wales, same as the nuclear power. We just get criticism focused on us by far-left activists because a) we're real people and will most likely try to explain ourselves on the internet or in person, and b) we are (rightly or wrongly, whatever your view) perceived as being to the left of Labour.


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## lewislewis (Sep 14, 2007)

One positive point is that the current Plaid National Conference in Llandudno has passed a number of motions that put the party to the left of New Labour (though not as left as Udo Erasmus wants). One of these is that Wales as a nation should be removed totally from the arms trade. Of course figuring out how to realise this is another matter, but the political will is there. I think the problem is that the area of 'Defence' is never going to be devolved to Wales, and won't be under our control until independence.
* The nuclear issue is now put to bed. Plaid is now opposed to any new nuclear power stations in Wales (although I personally wouldn't mind a continuation at Wylfa).
* Call for a referendum on the European Treaty (no commitment to either yes or no) and the end to the UK's opt-out of the Charter of Fundamental Human Rights.
* Call for the immediate withdrawal of British troops from Iraq.
* Number of Welsh MP's should be reduced, and number of AM's increased.
* Call for the devolution of the criminal justice system to Wales, and for a reduction in the number of people in prison and a focus on rehabilitation.
Other reports
* Leanne Wood suugesting the supervised medical prescription of heroin for drug addicts.
* An English language National Theatre should be realised within the next few years courtesy of Plaid.
* Some members including Elfyn Llwyd MP want Plaid to drop their policy of refusing to nominate Plaid members to the House of Lords (but that the House should be entirely elected).
* Within the party, all dissent and debate when Plaid are in government will be tolerated and allowed (as it should be).
* Alot of people want the female-first AM nomination policy to be dropped.

Ieuan Wyn Jones- “Those amongst Welsh Labour MPs who are regressive Unionist have already complained that the One Wales programme of government looks like the Plaid Cymru manifesto. What a shame!”


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## llantwit (Sep 15, 2007)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> One of these is that Wales as a nation should be removed totally from the arms trade. Of course figuring out how to realise this is another matter, but the political will is there. I think the problem is that the area of 'Defence' is never going to be devolved to Wales, and won't be under our control until independence.


That's interesting. Given that the St Athan project is in many ways a public-private partnership with amongst other companies, the missile manufacturer Raytheon you'd think that that'd be reason enough for plaid members to campaign against it.
I'd like to discuss some other points, too, but I'm working away, and am just grabbing a minute to reply here.


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## Karac (Sep 15, 2007)

Udo Erasmus said:
			
		

> This really is feeble even by your standards Niclas.
> 
> Are you really arguing that the position of a party in government in the Welsh Assembly, the second biggest party in Wales is of no significance?
> 
> ...


With your undoubted polemical skills,now that Respects imploding,why dont you join Plaid?
Bolster up the Left Wing of Plaid-Vote Plaid with no illusions etc


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## lewislewis (Sep 16, 2007)

Fully agree, repent while you still can Udo : p


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## lewislewis (Sep 16, 2007)

Two pieces of advice for Udo Erasmus- you have to make your decision soon!:

“The possibility exists of a radical alliance between the left and the national movement. The Left must recognise the radical potential of the submerged nations of Europe and we must recognise that the case for national freedom is to transform societies according to the principle of community socialism.”

Phil Williams, 1982


“Many who used to think of Wales as a British region, and of themselves as British Labour, think now of Wales as their nation, as their country, and of themselves as Welsh. If this change develops then it is bad news for the British Government and the British Labour Party, for it may presage a fusion of the national and the labour movement in Wales into such a powerful force that a free and just Wales may emerge”

Gwynfor Evans, 1980


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## llantwit (Sep 17, 2007)

llantwit said:
			
		

> That's interesting. Given that the St Athan project is in many ways a public-private partnership with amongst other companies, the missile manufacturer Raytheon you'd think that that'd be reason enough for plaid members to campaign against it.
> I'd like to discuss some other points, too, but I'm working away, and am just grabbing a minute to reply here.


Sorry to quote myself - but to rephrase, I think it's *impossible *that Plaid can say it's against the arms trade and not against the 'school for slaughter'/'murder academy'/insert pithy nomencalture here. The whole project is so bound up with arms companies like Raytheon it's unbelievable. 

Also, it seems a bit odd to decide not to oppose the St Athan Academy on the pragmatic grounds that there's little chance of a campaign actually winning, and then commit your party to the mammoth task of extricating Wales from the arms industry. Actually folowing through on the arms trade aim would mean closing down many large and small businesses and booting them out over the border - something I doubt any mainstream political party has got the stomach for. 

Big ones around here would have to include the massive General Dynamics plant in Gwent, and the ginormous BAE/Royal Ordnance factory at Glascoed (where they manufacture weapons made of depleted uranium) amongst many more. Given that no ruling politician in the UK has ever made a decision that detrimentally affected BAE systems I can't imagine in my wildest dreams that any future assembly govt would break that habit.


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## lewislewis (Sep 18, 2007)

I have no idea what the actually resolution was, I just got it from the press. Would be interesting to see how an independent Wales could be removed from the arms trade. Are there any European states not involved in the arms trade?


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## niclas (Sep 18, 2007)

llantwit said:
			
		

> Sorry to quote myself - but to rephrase, I think it's *impossible *that Plaid can say it's against the arms trade and not against the 'school for slaughter'/'murder academy'/insert pithy nomencalture here. The whole project is so bound up with arms companies like Raytheon it's unbelievable.
> 
> Also, it seems a bit odd to decide not to oppose the St Athan Academy on the pragmatic grounds that there's little chance of a campaign actually winning, and then commit your party to the mammoth task of extricating Wales from the arms industry. Actually folowing through on the arms trade aim would mean closing down many large and small businesses and booting them out over the border - something I doubt any mainstream political party has got the stomach for.
> 
> Big ones around here would have to include the massive General Dynamics plant in Gwent, and the ginormous BAE/Royal Ordnance factory at Glascoed (where they manufacture weapons made of depleted uranium) amongst many more. Given that no ruling politician in the UK has ever made a decision that detrimentally affected BAE systems I can't imagine in my wildest dreams that any future assembly govt would break that habit.



Bigger works have closed in Wales - Brymbo, Ebbw Vale, Llanwern steelworks, Trawsfynydd was a huge local employer... employment changes. It can be done with the political will.

Which brings us back to St Athan - I don't believe it's a done deal. There have been promises to bring thousands of jobs there in the past and they haven't materialised. Also, isn't the Metrix consortium making noises about needing other aspects of deals to come through before continuing?

 I'm not too clear what the campaign is currently doing - are any Urbanites able to enlighten us? - but with a left-wing leadership in the PCS union opposing the privatisation of training, that should be a good starting point for opposition. Is the PCS still opposing it? If so, how?

 What else? Local opposition based on concerns about the impact on housing, roads and schools can be NIMBYish but again it's all part of building a coalition. Has anyone been down to the Vale to test the water with a leaflet or a meeting? Would the PCS come down for a meeting?

 Building a coalition of union concern, community concern, peaceniks and the broader socialist/anarchist opposition to militarism seems like a way forward, even at this late stage. Is that happening? I've checked the Cynefin y Werin site but no info beyond the last demo.


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## llantwit (Sep 19, 2007)

The campaign's in its infancy at the moment. The major thing that has been done is the writing of a report by a Cardiff-based academic called Stuart Tannock - it's good, and addresses a number of issues such as the base's links to privatisation, educational institutions, the arms trade, high-tech military war, and training foreign officers from 'our' allies armies. They're in the process of getting an edition published properly, and I'll post up a PDF here when it's ready.
There've only been a few meetings so far, and there have mainly been CND-style peaceniks, church-based peace groups, and anarchists there. I agree totally with everything you've said Niclas, and don't think it's too late to turn this around. Also on the union front - it'd be great to link this to organised labour somehow. Do you think you could pass on any contacts to me in the PCS that you have so I can sound them out?
On the Nimby front - we haven't been down apart from a brief photo-call thing outside the base, but the locals we did speak to then were all broadly in favour, and a bit curous as to why we were there. There isn't a local opposition, as far as I know. Leafletting and a meeting would be a very good start to sound this out more, though. I'll sugest it at the next meeting.
Do you think you'll be able to make it down at any point?


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## niclas (Sep 20, 2007)

Yes, Tannock's report is good. I understand 2000 have just been printed as a short pamphlet. It's being discussed at the Welsh Peace Festival in Caernarfon this Saturday.

 Will get in touch off-list re the PCS contacts, although I'm sure a few lurkers on this list are better placed than me re S Wales.

 The NIMBY thing arose from some comments I saw from Chris Franks, Plaid AM from Dinas Powys, about the impact on schools and roads. Let's face it, a few cleaning and catering jobs ain't going to win over some of the leafier areas of the Vale if they think it's going to hurt property prices.


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## llantwit (Oct 19, 2007)

We took the campaign to the Cardiff Stop the War Coalition last night to see if they'd support us. I honestly thought it would be open and shut... but the SWP members present argued vociferously (and in some cases quite rudely and abusively) against, so it didn't go through.
The argument was that the focus should be kept on the war, and getting as many people as possible on-board. The 'potentially divisive' and 'ultra-left' and 'marxist' arguments against the St Athan academy were deemed likely to put people off the Stop the War movement. Given the fact that the St Athan campaign is made up largely of peace campaigners with hardly a Marxist in sight at the moment I found the whole thing quite bizarre.
Yet more wierd sectarian bullshit from the swoppies, I'm afraid.


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## penderyn2000 (Oct 19, 2007)

Wales FESC (UCU further ed section) has given its support to the St Athan resolution we have submitted to STW conference.  For more on that, Cardiff STW etc, see www.cardiffpr.wordpress.com.


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## lewislewis (Nov 6, 2007)

Apparently Jill Evans MEP is suggesting that Plaid should clarfiy their position and either oppose the development or campaign for the Assembly to be given a role in overseeing the development. Could be an interesting debate within the next few months.


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## llantwit (Nov 6, 2007)

Only be interesting if a group of anti- AMs form some time soon. Otherwise any 'debate' will be a bit of a non event, surely. Still nobody's come out against it.


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## penderyn2000 (Nov 7, 2007)

No-one's mentioned yet that PR's resolution to Stop The War Coalition conference was overwhelmingly carried.  Theoretically all STW branches will be getting involved in educating people about St Athan, and STW will be holding a demo against it.  More details at http://cardiffpr.wordpress.com.


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## Dic Penderyn (Nov 7, 2007)

penderyn2000 said:
			
		

> No-one's mentioned yet that PR's resolution to Stop The War Coalition conference was overwhelmingly carried.  Theoretically all STW branches will be getting involved in educating people about St Athan, and STW will be holding a demo against it.  More details at http://cardiffpr.wordpress.com.



Fair play!

Can you see the 'majority element' in Cardiff STW getting behind this?


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## llantwit (Nov 7, 2007)

penderyn2000 said:
			
		

> No-one's mentioned yet that PR's resolution to Stop The War Coalition conference was overwhelmingly carried.  Theoretically all STW branches will be getting involved in educating people about St Athan, and STW will be holding a demo against it.  More details at http://cardiffpr.wordpress.com.


Flabergasted. Will check out the blog.


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## penderyn2000 (Nov 9, 2007)

The Western Mail (in the shape of Martin Shipton, a character I knew well at college as an unprincipled muckraker) has finally condescended to print criticisms of St Athan - ie the role of Raytheon in cluster bombing - followed by  refutations from Raytheon and Rhodri Morgan, both printed without comment. PR have therefore made a few comments of our own at http://cardiffpr.wordpress.com.


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## llantwit (Nov 9, 2007)

I've always found MS to be a good sort.
Anyway, there's always space in this world for unprincipled muck-rakers Dic.


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## Udo Erasmus (Nov 16, 2007)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/7097783.stm


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## lewislewis (Nov 16, 2007)

Word is out then! 

"Vale Labour MP John Smith said her comments were "dangerous nonsense"."

If this project had needed approval from the Welsh Assembly Government it would never have gotten through. There are much better ways to 'develop' Wales that won't involve cluster bombs. I fully support Jill Evans' resolution and hope it is voted through on Saturday. We must have a strong Welsh Parliament and in future a self-governing Wales to stop these unethical developments being foisted on us. More importantly a strong mass campaign against the project should be forged, and if this resolution gets carried on Saturday it will have the support of alot of Plaid members.


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## Udo Erasmus (Nov 16, 2007)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> Word is out then!
> 
> "Vale Labour MP John Smith said her comments were "dangerous nonsense"."
> 
> There are much better ways to 'develop' Wales that won't involve cluster bombs. I fully support Jill Evans' resolution and hope it is voted through on Saturday. We must have a strong Welsh Parliament and in future a self-governing Wales to stop these unethical developments being foisted on us. More importantly a strong mass campaign against the project should be forged, and if this resolution gets carried on Saturday it will have the support of alot of Plaid members.



"If this project had needed approval from the Welsh Assembly Government it would never have gotten through."

Well given the leaders of the 4 main parties supported the development - this is doubtful including the leader of the nationalists, Ieuan Wyn Jones. I see no reason why an independent Wales would necessarily be anti-imperialist. "Neutral" Ireland allowed Shannon Airport to be used for imperialist wars.

And so far, the only politicians who have expressed any public opposition to St Athan's are Cllr. Ray Davies, Jill Evans MEP and from outside of Wales: Tony Benn, Cllr. Salma Yaqoob and Bolsover Respect Cllr. Ray Holmes.

There was an interesting piece on Dragon's Eye yesterday with Chris Bryant MP saying how angry he was that Jill Evans was trying to stop people in the Rhonnda getting 5,000 jobs. As I stated earlier the opposition of politicians would help get opposition to St Athan's in the media. 

Evans documents seems to make some good points but is somewhat fluffy in places based on a liberal pacifist analysis rather than a marxist anti-imperialist analysis- for example, withdrawal from NATO (good!) but illusions in UN peacekeepers and the UN as being somehow less of an imperialist alliance than NATO (bad!)

I am glad that Jill Evans has finally (probably due to the development of a No2military academy campagin) made some criticisms, she is one of the Plaid people I have some respect for.

Out of interest, if Evans' resolutions is soundly defeated will she continue to oppose St Athan's or fall into line?


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## penderyn2000 (Nov 16, 2007)

For those who don't know, there's a meeting of the campaign at the Temple of Peace this Sunday (18th), 2pm.
Comment on Jill Evans and the response of Labour MPs including Paul Flynn at http://cardiffpr.wordpress.com.


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## lewislewis (Nov 18, 2007)

Udo Erasmus said:
			
		

> "If this project had needed approval from the Welsh Assembly Government it would never have gotten through."
> 
> Well given the leaders of the 4 main parties supported the development - this is doubtful including the leader of the nationalists, Ieuan Wyn Jones. I see no reason why an independent Wales would necessarily be anti-imperialist. "Neutral" Ireland allowed Shannon Airport to be used for imperialist wars.
> 
> ...



Firstly my views are well known and I oppose this project and support the campaign against. Many Plaid members are the same and will continue to do so no matter what the outcome of the discussion earlier (I haven't heard yet).
Your last point though, I do not understand. Jill Evans can do whatever she wants Plaid is truly a democratic party. To an extent, personalities can do whatever they want but are accountable to the grassroots. So she can continue to have her say and campaign/oppose St.Athan no matter what, but to bring the entire party officially against the project, would need the resolution to be passed.
There are many parties that operate on this democratic decentralist ideal, including the Greens.

Your point on the media was correct it seems, but we don't know what the impact of that press coverage will be. Better than nothing, certainly, and I hope you appreciate Jill going out against the project and doing the right thing. 

As far as I know Jill isn't a Marxist anyway in the way you determine, she is an ordinary person who draws influence from some of Karl Marx's ideals. Whatever scientific label you want to attach to her analysis, let's just agree that it'd be much better for humanity if Wales took her line, rather than the current UK government line.

I know Plaid is fluffy, it's a mainstream party after all and mainstream politics isn't very nice at all. But the real enemies here seem to be the right-wing Labour MP's like Chris Bryant, and to a lesser extent John Smith (who can be ok sometimes). 
Join Plaid and help move it towards more sensible, principled territory. Plaid is a party of government now and it's up to the people of Wales whether they want to take ownership of the party in their community. It is the only open and democratic political party left probably in the British Isles, join it and influence the agenda while you still have the chance.


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## Udo Erasmus (Nov 19, 2007)

So did Plaid's NC decide to oppose St Athan's?


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## llantwit (Nov 19, 2007)

The news reports on the ICWales website makes it sound like this was some kind of policy discussion paper, and not a resolution to be voted on the the membership. Do you know what the score is Lewis Lewis?
http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/news/wales-news/2007/11/19/plaid-mep-defends-anti-st-athan-stance-91466-20125733/


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## penderyn2000 (Nov 19, 2007)

Jill Evans was at Sunday's St Athans meeting.  Plaid are not enforcing a party line on St Athans - Jill and others will  supposedly remain free to keep criticising. Jill herself did not push the matter to a vote at national council - because she knew she would lose. The fact remains that the academy was pushed through with the support of Plaid Vale councillors and clearly has the support of the majority of leading members. Jill is confident many grassroots members will support her, which just shows how deluded those members are. The 'party of Wales' will never side against UK imperialism when it comes to the crunch. 
I'm sure the irony will not be lost on everybody that Plaid, nominally anti-privatisation, cannot present a unified face on the biggest privatisation in Welsh history.
Despite their nominal support for the St Athan campaign, there were neither SWP/Respect members nor South Wales anarchists at the meeting.  The campaign is presently dominated by peaceniks of a certain age, and really needs to attract a wider (and more active) clientele - one reason why PR took it to Stop The War.  We'll post a fuller report of the meeting and ideas for the way forward on our website.


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## llantwit (Nov 19, 2007)

penderyn2000 said:
			
		

> Despite their nominal support for the St Athan campaign, there were neither SWP/Respect members nor South Wales anarchists at the meeting.  The campaign is presently dominated by peaceniks of a certain age, and really needs to attract a wider (and more active) clientele - one reason why PR took it to Stop The War.


Was that a bitchy comment?!
For fucks sake, we've been to every other meeting since the first one ages ago, and we've done a fair bit of work on this in a number of different ways. 
Appologies if I'm being hyper sensitive, like.


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## lewislewis (Nov 20, 2007)

llantwit said:
			
		

> The news reports on the ICWales website makes it sound like this was some kind of policy discussion paper, and not a resolution to be voted on the the membership. Do you know what the score is Lewis Lewis?
> http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/news/wales-news/2007/11/19/plaid-mep-defends-anti-st-athan-stance-91466-20125733/



Unfortunately it was not a resolution, although I was under the impression it was as were many others.

It could be turned into a resolution though, Jill obviously knows more than me about the climate in the party because I'm certain the NC would back an anti-St.Athan resolution.

The NC decided not to take any stance on the issue. Lame. However Jill and anyone else are free to campaign against the academy and not be 'stopped' as John Smith MP suggests.


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## penderyn2000 (Nov 20, 2007)

llantwit said:
			
		

> Appologies if I'm being hyper sensitive, like.


Apologies accepted.  It was a factual account of the forces involved in the meeting.


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## llantwit (Nov 20, 2007)

Oh. That's alright then.


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## llantwit (Nov 20, 2007)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> Unfortunately it was not a resolution, although I was under the impression it was as were many others.
> 
> It could be turned into a resolution though, Jill obviously knows more than me about the climate in the party because I'm certain the NC would back an anti-St.Athan resolution.
> 
> The NC decided not to take any stance on the issue. Lame. However Jill and anyone else are free to campaign against the academy and not be 'stopped' as John Smith MP suggests.


Pity. At least they didn't enforce a party line, though.
I guess it would've been too damaging for the membership to have voted against the leadership on an issue like this, especially given the shitstorm of over the top right wing abuse that Jill had to endure from all quarters over the weekend.


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## lewislewis (Nov 20, 2007)

John Smith's comments still amaze me. Something like 'she is talking nonsense and should be stopped'.

He's either being really stupid and emotional (because he's campaigned for years to try and get this delivered to St. Athan) or he genuinely thinks she should be silenced somehow? Anti-terrorism laws maybe?

There should be a demonstration called outside Labour's home in Wales, Transport House in Cardiff.


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## niclas (Nov 20, 2007)

llantwit said:
			
		

> Pity. At least they didn't enforce a party line, though.
> I guess it would've been too damaging for the membership to have voted against the leadership on an issue like this, especially given the shitstorm of over the top right wing abuse that Jill had to endure from all quarters over the weekend.



Jill's paper has succeeded in one respect - the issue is now out of the left-peacenik ghetto (no offence intended) and in the mainstream of Welsh political debate.
 It's not for Jill or Plaid to dictate the direction of the campaign, but at least there's now new scope for the campaign to argue the toss about PFI, the companies involved, the failure of Phase 2, the number of jobs created... is it true Alun Cairns is now quoting 10,000 jobs?
 One other matter - Bryant seems to be setting up the case for Jill to take the rap if/when Phase 2 is publicly announced as not coming to St Athan.


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## Rhi (Nov 21, 2007)

When is the next Stop St. Athan meeting please?


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## Udo Erasmus (Nov 21, 2007)

llantwit said:
			
		

> Was that a bitchy comment?!
> For fucks sake, we've been to every other meeting since the first one ages ago, and we've done a fair bit of work on this in a number of different ways.
> Appologies if I'm being hyper sensitive, like.



Respect could do more, but it was the only political party to raise the issue of St Athan's in the Assembly Elections with our opposition to the Military Academy included on every single election leaflet and the first political party in Wales to publicly oppose the Military Academy (unfortunately the Echo declined to print either the letter or press release that I personally sent to them about a year ago). Cllr Salma Yaqoob (Birmingham) and Cllr Ray Holmes (Bolsover) from both wings of Respect have both sent messages of support to the campaign. I have also given some help to the co-ordinator of the campaign in passing on useful contacts etc.

As it goes, while I have seen Penderyn publicly argue that the war was over in 2003 and that the anti-war movement should be demobilised, I have not seen him take part in any activism to oppose the occupation of Iraq for at least 3 years! I could equally say that Cardiff PRs opposition to imperialism has been tokenistic.

_*Edited to add: In fact, I have just heard that a member of Respect was present at said meeting - so much for a factual account!*_


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## zog (Nov 21, 2007)

> PR



sorry to sound thick, but what does PR stand for in this context?


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## Udo Erasmus (Nov 21, 2007)

You haven't heard of PR? But they are the most left wing, militant revolutionary group in the UK!!!!!
Once upon the time there used to be a party called Workers Power. They had around 50 ageing members in the UK. There main priority seemed to be to attempt to look more lefty than the Socialist Workers Party, hence an obsession with finding ways to "expose" the SWP as not really very nice and a kind of militant "resolutionary" socialism where they would put forward rather militant sounding slogans that had no connection to reality or the actual balance of class forces this over optimistic rhetoric was combined with conservative practice. For example, every so often they would demand that an organisation issue a call to the workers to go on general strike (actually, I issued a call for a general strike last week! But the workers ignored me)
Famously, Penderyn thought that the Welsh Socialist Alliance should demand armed workers militia on it's election literature.  While I agree that in a revolutionary situation this would be useful, most of us thought that at the present moment this wasn't a campaigning priority. Nevertheless Penderyn's exercise was sucessful in his eyes as exposing the SWP as toytown revolutionaries who hid their politics because they wouldn't tell granny's on the doorstep to form armed workers militia.
I don't know if Penderyn formed his band of 3 merry men + 1 woman into Dad's army and went marching around splott and roath park and I don't really care.
Nevertheless Workers Power were going to lead the revolution and were the UK section of the League to launch a 5th International. 
Last year, they expelled half their members who formed a group called Permanent Revolution (PR) some of whom are now members of the Labour Party who PR decided we should all vote for. In a moment of maoist self-criticism, the Permanent Revolution slammed all the positions that had informed Workers Power's political perspective, which was a bit odd because the Cardiff comrades basically said that what they had been arguing six months past was loony and that they only did it because of "democratic centralism".
But really we should let Penderyn give his own account of the organisation - it's his party and he can cry if he wants to, you'd cry too if it happened to you!


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## lewislewis (Nov 21, 2007)

Wait a minute, there are seriously political parties in existence in the UK that have 50 members?

I know SWP, Respect, SP etc are small and only have up to about 1,000, but 50?! 

The Welsh Socialist Alliance could have been a breakthrough, it had good policies and actually managed to field candidates.


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## Udo Erasmus (Nov 22, 2007)

The political parties mentioned are somewhat bigger than you think. But I expect the combined strength of far left parties put together would be perhaps 12,000 people at the moment in the UK.

On a serious note I think this is ashame, other countries have far bigger left wing movements. Even in France, the leaders of the two main trotskyist parties are household names and regularly appear on national TV. I personally wish that the left as a whole was far stronger here.

With this current phase of savage capitalism that has seen an unprecedented neoliberal offensive with the market encroaching more and more on areas of society that were once considered sacred and everything including our lives run for profit the need for "our side" to get organised has never been greater.


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## lewislewis (Nov 22, 2007)

But what about the factionalism and bureacratism or the far-left? There are even capitalist mainstream parties that are democratic and don't have those hang-ups. 

I wish 'the left' as a whole was far stronger here too just to make things more interesting. The SSP is the closest the far-left came in the last ten years to having an impact, but even they were undone by infighting.

The thing is, in Wales we have a different set of political circumstances. We have a larger working class as a proportion of our population than England does and a larger industrial base as a proportion, but no major cities. We have a separate, infant government that is more susceptible to the influence of progressive politics than the Westminster government. This is all top-down stuff, but there needs to be a left force that is concerned with linking these top-level developments such as devolution, with the need to resist the neoliberal offensive you talk about. Such a left force would have to be specifically oriented to the needs of Wales, because Wales although an imagined national community is real in the minds of the people. The SSP were succesful in achieving this in Scotland, whilst still being an internationalist party. They had their campaigning side but were also decent at fighting elections. 
Why not a WSP? Ban all the small factions and say you must be a member of this party and no other. Your Respect slogan 'Another Wales is Possible' is pretty grim, most people in Wales have not heard of Respect or even George Galloway.


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## Karac (Nov 22, 2007)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> But what about the factionalism and bureacratism or the far-left? There are even capitalist mainstream parties that are democratic and don't have those hang-ups.
> 
> I wish 'the left' as a whole was far stronger here too just to make things more interesting. The SSP is the closest the far-left came in the last ten years to having an impact, but even they were undone by infighting.
> 
> ...


Bring back the WRSM!


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## zog (Nov 23, 2007)

> You haven't heard of PR? But they are the most left wing, militant revolutionary group in the UK!!!!!



a force to be reconed with.


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## niclas (Nov 23, 2007)

Karac said:
			
		

> Bring back the WRSM!



Shurely WSRM? Just to be pedantic...


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## penderyn2000 (Nov 24, 2007)

The National Audit Office's criticism of the Qinetiq privatisation has put an important Metrix player in the headlines.  Read our response at http://cardiffpr.wordpress.com, and for the uninitiated, judge us both on our arguments and what we do rather than anything you read here.


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## zog (Nov 24, 2007)

if you're a splinter from workers power i got a good idea of what you're like.

best of luck to you


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## penderyn2000 (Nov 24, 2007)

Obliged.



			
				Rhi said:
			
		

> When is the next Stop St. Athan meeting please?


Sat 5 Jan, Temple of Peace - 2pm I think.  Our site maintains an events listing, but we do depend on people sending us info.


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