# UK courtroom to hear evidence against the official narrative of 9/11



## Jazzz (Feb 18, 2013)

* Historic Case to Challenge BBC’s 9/11Coverage * 

*By Peter Drew *

*February 17, 2013 "**Information Clearing House**" -*  On February 25, in the small town of Horsham in the United Kingdom, there will be a rare and potentially groundbreaking opportunity for the 9/11 truth movement. Three hours of detailed 9/11 evidence is to be presented and considered in a court of law where the British Broadcasting Corporation (BBC) will be challenged over the inaccurate and biased manner in which it has portrayed the events and evidence of 9/11.

Over the last 16 months, BBC has been challenged strongly by individuals in the UK over two documentaries that they showed in September 2011 as part of the tenth anniversary of 9/11, namely ‘9/11: Conspiracy Road Trip’ and ‘The Conspiracy Files: 9/11 Ten Years On’.  Formal complaints were lodged with BBC over the inaccuracy and bias of these documentaries, which, according to 9/11 activists, was in breach of the operating requirements of BBC through their ‘Royal Charter and Agreement’ with the British public. This document requires BBC to show information that is both accurate and impartial. These complaints were supported by the US-based educational charity Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth (AE911Truth), which submitted detailed scientific evidence to BBC to buttress the complaints. The evidence focuses in particular on the confirmed free-fall of WTC 7 and NIST's 2008 admission of this fact. In addition, over 300 AE911Truth petition signers supported these complaints by sending letters to BBC, requesting that BBC show this evidence to the public. 

As a continuation of this process with BBC, documentary film maker Tony Rooke has decided to take a personal stand on this issue. People in the United Kingdom are required to pay an annual TV licence fee which is used to fund BBC’s operations. Tony has refused to pay his TV licence fee on the basis of specific anti-terrorism legislation.

Section 15 of the  UK Terrorism Act 2000, Article 3, states that it is offence to provide funds if there is a reasonable causeto suspect that those funds may be used for the purposes of terrorism. Tony’s claim is that BBC has withheld scientific evidence which demonstrates that the _official version_ of the events of 9/11 is not possible and that BBC has actively attempted to discredit those people attempting to bring this evidence to the public. According to Rooke, by doing this, BBC is supporting a cover-up of the true events of 9/11 and is therefore potentially supporting those terrorist elements who were involved in certain aspects of 9/11 who have not yet been identified and held to account.
​Rooke has been charged with a crime for not paying his TV Licence Fee. However, he has lodged a legal challenge to this charge and has now been successful in being granted an appearance in a Magistrate’s court, where he has three hours available to present his evidence to defend himself against the charge. Tony has put together a formidable team to support him in presenting the evidence, including the following two outstanding 9/11 researchers:​​*Professor Niels Harrit*​Dr. Niels Harrit is a Professor of Chemistry at the University of Copenhagen and is one of the world’s leading experts on the scientific evidence that contradicts the official story of 9/11. Professor Harrit's team of scientists in Copenhagen proved that there was nano-engineered thermitic residue, both ignited and unignited, throughout the dust of the three WTC towers. He led the team and published the peer-reviewed study in an  official scientific journal. He is also an expert on the other aspects of scientific evidence indicating controlled demolition of the three towers.​ 
Professor Harrit was interviewed for a  major documentary with BBC in 2011 where BBC clearly attempted to harass and discredit him rather than look at the scientific evidence, which was devastating to the official story of the destruction of the Twin Towers. Professor Harrit's team took the precautionary step of recording this interview, as well as the interaction before and after the interview, which clearly shows the harassment and highly inappropriate conduct by BBC

* Tony Farrell*
Tony Farrell is a former Intelligence Analyst for the South Yorkshire Police Department. He was fired in 2010 because he felt compelled by his conscience to tell the truth in his official report and state that, due to his extensive analysis of the events of 9/11 and the 7/7 London bombings, he considered that the greatest terrorist threat to the public did not come from Islamic extremists but from internal sources within the US and British establishment. He is now dedicating his life to helping to expose the evidence and he is challenging his dismissal through international court.
Other members of Rooke’s presentation team include:

Ian Henshall: Leading UK author on 9/11 and founder of the UK group ‘Re-investigate 9/11’
Ray Savage: Former counterterrorism officer who demonstrates the official 9/11 story is not true
Peter Drew: UK AE911Truth Action Group Facilitator
In addition to these presenters, there are detailed written testimonies of evidence and support from four other 9/11 researchers which will be deployed to bolster to Tony’s defence:

Richard Gage, AIA: Founder/CEO of Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth
Dwain Deets: Former NASA Director of Aerospace Projects 
Erik Lawyer: Founder of Firefighters for 9/11 Truth 
Jake Jacobs: Veteran US airline pilot and member of Pilots for 9/11 Truth

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article33984.htm


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## Firky (Feb 18, 2013)

First in.



> Tony Farrell is a former Intelligence Analyst for the South Yorkshire Police Department.


 
Finger on the pulse.


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## Belushi (Feb 18, 2013)

He's at the Magistrates for not paying the licence fee Jazz.


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## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Feb 18, 2013)

So he gets to rant for a bit before being told to pay his tv licence?


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## two sheds (Feb 18, 2013)

Awww I thought it was Peter Dow writing that 

If he signed his name in capitals case done and dusted


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## frogwoman (Feb 18, 2013)

Brilliant


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## existentialist (Feb 18, 2013)

Belushi said:


> He's at the Magistrates for not paying the licence fee Jazz.




This is going to be a





thread, isn't it?

Mind you, I think the reporting of the case is likely to be a gem


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## DotCommunist (Feb 18, 2013)

Belushi said:


> He's at the Magistrates for not paying the licence fee Jazz.


 

shades of freemanism


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## Wilf (Feb 18, 2013)

Poor BBC, fucking hell, bet they didn't think things could get much worse.


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## Voley (Feb 18, 2013)

existentialist said:


> Mind you, I think the reporting of the case is likely to be a gem


I hope so.


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## FridgeMagnet (Feb 18, 2013)




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## Wilf (Feb 18, 2013)

If I was a Horsham magistrate I'd probably be tidying my sock drawer on that day.


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## Firky (Feb 18, 2013)

I love how the team involved are all "former" and "founder" but never "renowned" or "respected"


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## existentialist (Feb 18, 2013)

firky said:


> I love how the team involved are all "former"


Ah, that's because they all got sacked for telling the TROOF!


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## mrs quoad (Feb 18, 2013)

firky said:


> First in.
> 
> 
> 
> Finger on the pulse.


Why did you stop there?!



> He was fired in 2010 because he felt compelled by his conscience to tell the truth in his official report and state that, due to his extensive analysis of the events of 9/11 and the 7/7 London bombings, he considered that the greatest terrorist threat to the public did not come from Islamic extremists but from internal sources within the US and British establishment.




I bet that involved a series of awesome conversations


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## frogwoman (Feb 18, 2013)

firky said:


> I love how the team involved are all "former"


 
The ongoing Illuminati/Rothschild persecution of honest citizens is nothing to laugh about Firky


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## elbows (Feb 18, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> View attachment 29135


 
Thats not a real roflcopter, its a hologram.


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## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Feb 18, 2013)

firky said:


> I love how the team involved are all "former"



They're all full time soldiers of truth now.


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## butchersapron (Feb 18, 2013)

So Jazzz, is the BBC a terrorist organisation as your nutty mates claim or is it still 'impeccable'?


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## frogwoman (Feb 18, 2013)

when is the hearing? I want to go


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## Dan U (Feb 18, 2013)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> So he gets to rant for a bit before being told to pay his tv licence?



Looks that way


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## mrs quoad (Feb 18, 2013)

When the truthers've kicked the fuck out of this one, I hope they sort out the BBC's disproportionate bias towards evolutionary and round earth theories, too


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## DotCommunist (Feb 18, 2013)

> internal sources within the US and British establishment.


 
ah. Begins with a J


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## Wilf (Feb 18, 2013)

You may sneer, but when we sheeple live in a free world, you'll know it all began in Horsham - with a holographic TV licence.


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## Voley (Feb 18, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> when is the hearing? I want to go


Same here. Has anyone ever been properly 'laughed out of court'? I mean quite literally. Hounded onto the street amidst gales of hysterical mirth. Judges literally pissing themselves, people in the gallery having seizures, that sort of thing. This could be that moment.


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## frogwoman (Feb 18, 2013)

NVP said:


> Same here. Has anyone ever been properly 'laughed out of court'? I mean quite literally. Hounded onto the street amidst gales of hysterical mirth. Judges literally pissing themselves, people in the gallery having seizures, that sort of thing. This could be that moment.


 
When and where is it? P&P day out


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## Firky (Feb 18, 2013)

mrs quoad said:


> When the truthers've kicked the fuck out of this one, I hope they sort out the BBC's disproportionate bias towards evolutionary and round earth theories, too


 
It comes as no surprise to those in the know that the world famous BBC pips are nearly identical to a call of an owl when distorted in a recording studio.


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## existentialist (Feb 18, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> When and where is it? P&P day out


http://magistrates-court.co.uk/horsham-magistrates-court/

25th February.


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## butchersapron (Feb 18, 2013)

February 25th at 10:00 am

Horsham Magistrates’ Court [Court 3]
The Law Courts
Hurst Road
Horsham
West Sussex
England
RH12 2ET


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## DotCommunist (Feb 18, 2013)

this geezer sounds proper clown shoes


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## frogwoman (Feb 18, 2013)

bollocks, probably not free on that day anyway and looks like you have to change in london


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## cesare (Feb 18, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> When and where is it? P&P day out


I'd be up for that 

I wonder if it'd be worth sitting through 3 hours of it just to see if this is one of the few occasions when they grant a wasted costs order as well as fine him


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## Belushi (Feb 18, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> bollocks, probably not free on that day anyway and looks like you have to change in london


 
All you have to do is not pay your licence fee and then you too can have your day in court ranting about the conspiracy theory of your choice


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## two sheds (Feb 18, 2013)

mrs quoad said:


> Why did you stop there?!
> 
> 
> 
> I bet that involved a series of awesome conversations


 
Though he's got a point with "he considered that the greatest terrorist threat to the public did not come from Islamic extremists but from internal sources within the US and British establishment."


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## Wilf (Feb 18, 2013)

They should defer the case till he's 75.


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## Firky (Feb 18, 2013)

two sheds said:


> Though he's got a point with "he considered that the greatest terrorist threat to the public did not come from Islamic extremists but from internal sources within the US and British establishment."


 

I think you have interpreted that differently to what was meant. MI5 were behind London bombings,  maaan.


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## frogwoman (Feb 18, 2013)

This isn't anything to do with that "Ripple Effect" shite is it?


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## Firky (Feb 18, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> This isn't anything to do with that "Ripple Effect" shite is it?


 
That cock sent his shit film to members of a jury.


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## frogwoman (Feb 18, 2013)

firky said:


> That cock sent his shit film to members of a jury.


 
Cunts.


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## Jon-of-arc (Feb 18, 2013)

So when the magistrate finds that the assertions of the truther movement are without merit, and certainly not a valid defence for not paying your tv licence, does this mean that the conspiracy theory has been proved wrong in a court of law, after being granted a fair hearing?  Because that's how it seems. In a hunt for publicity and credibility, this seems a tactic which is basically guaranteed to backfire.  

Is the defendant prepared to accept the judges verdict, even if it doesn't go in his favour? And by this, I do not mean "is he prepared to call the judge a stooge/puppet/sheep, if his defence is not upheld?"


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## two sheds (Feb 18, 2013)

Have a guess


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## butchersapron (Feb 18, 2013)

Jon-of-arc said:


> So when the magistrate finds that the assertions of the truther movement are without merit, ande certainly not a valid defence for not paying your tv licence, does this mean that the conspiracy theory has been proved wrong in a court of law, after being granted a fair hearing? Because that's how it seems. In a hunt for publicity and credibility, this seems a tactic which is basically guaranteed to backfire.
> 
> Is the defendant prepared to accept the judges verdict, even if it doesn't go in his favour? And by this, I do not mean "is he prepared to call the judge a stooge/puppet/sheep, if his defence is not upheld?"


The Magistrate won't even deal with any of that stuff for one second. S/he'll simply point out this case is being judged on strict liability grounds (i.e it doesn't matter why he didn't pay, all that counts is he did did or not) and all this other guff is irrelevant.

Lovely voice this Tony btw - warning -  if you click on any of his _other_ vids you will more than likely see dead kids, kids being murdered, people with their brains hanging out - all as a tribute  "'GW' and his toxic, owl-worshiping, child molesting friends."


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## stuff_it (Feb 18, 2013)

existentialist said:


> This is going to be a
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think that's a bit plane plain for this thread...


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## stavros (Feb 18, 2013)

Expert witnesses including Neil Armstrong and Trevor Rees-Jones to be called, presumably.


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## beesonthewhatnow (Feb 18, 2013)

You really must love it down at the bottom of that hole Jazzz.


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## frogwoman (Feb 18, 2013)

> The full version of this discussion focusing on corruption in South Yorkshire Police and Sheffield City Council, Former Principal Intelligence Analyst Tony Farrell is in brutally frank conversation with David Pidcock leader of the Islamic Party of Britain.


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## existentialist (Feb 18, 2013)

I see your


stuff_it said:


>


and I raise you a


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## existentialist (Feb 18, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> _The full version of this discussion focusing on corruption in South Yorkshire Police and Sheffield City Council, Former Principal Intelligence Analyst Tony Farrell is in brutally frank conversation with David Pidcock leader of the Islamic Party of Britain._


When I hear people self-describing their conversations as "brutally frank", a tiny tinfoil bell goes off in my head.


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## Jazzz (Feb 18, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> The Magistrate won't even deal with any of that stuff for one second. S/he'll simply point out this case is being judged on strict liability grounds (i.e it doesn't matter why he didn't pay, all that counts is he did did or not) and all this other guff is irrelevant.


Well no, as a point of law, it's not.

The draconian anti-terrorism legislation means that one is obliged not to fund any organisation where there is any suspicion that they are involved in abetting terrorist activity. This is the basis for Rooke's refusal and defence.

the Magistrate has already accepted the defence as 'arguable', hence the three hour hearing.


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## frogwoman (Feb 18, 2013)

the islamic party of britain seems to have only 4 members.


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## butchersapron (Feb 18, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> The full version of this discussion focusing on corruption in South Yorkshire Police and Sheffield City Council, Former Principal Intelligence Analyst Tony Farrell is in brutally frank conversation with David Pidcock leader of the Islamic Party of Britain.


 
That's the notoriously homophobic and anti-semitic Islamic Party of Britain that reprints stuff from open nazis and facists like Alexander Baron. Only ever a few steps...


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## butchersapron (Feb 18, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> Well no, as a point of law, it's not.
> 
> The draconian anti-terrorism legislation means that one is obliged not to fund any organisation where there is any suspicion that they are involved in abetting terrorist activity. This is the basis for Rooke's refusal and defence.
> 
> the Magistrate has already accepted the defence as 'arguable', hence the three hour hearing.


Wrong, wrong wrong - licence fees come under strict liability - there is no defence available for not paying the TV licence fee. This will be ruled to be irrelevant guff.


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## frogwoman (Feb 18, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> That's the notoriously homophobic and anti-semitic Islamic Party of Britain that reprints stuff from open nazis and facists like Alexander Baron. Only ever a few steps...


 
from the comments:


To make it clear.
I'm suggesting Hillsborough could easily be a deliberate act carried out by a small number of cynical operatives. The purpose being an emotive means of manipulating the general population into rejecting the constables we have, leaving a vacuum to be occupied by a brutal, paramilitary private police force beholden to the bankers.

so hillsborough is our fault as well then  

it would be funny if it wasnt so sick and didnt interfere with people's attempts to get justice after so many years


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## cesare (Feb 18, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> Well no, as a point of law, it's not.
> 
> The draconian anti-terrorism legislation means that one is obliged not to fund any organisation where there is any suspicion that they are involved in abetting terrorist activity. This is the basis for Rooke's refusal and defence.
> 
> the Magistrate has already accepted the defence as 'arguable', hence the three hour hearing.


Has Rooke been put on notice for costs?


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## existentialist (Feb 18, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> Well no, as a point of law, it's not.


I didn't know you were a lawyer, Jazzz?



Jazzz said:


> The draconian anti-terrorism legislation means that one is obliged not to fund any organisation where there is any suspicion that they are involved in abetting terrorist activity. This is the basis for Rooke's refusal and defence.


So it would seem. I am surprised at your unwillingness to allow we sceptics to dig ourselves into a nice deep mire so that you can trot along some time early on the afternoon of the 25th, and point out to us how stupidly wrong we all were.

When what will actually happen is that this thread will have become a 50-page monster, you'll have wriggled and diverted all over the place, and probably disappeared with 15 posters hounding you for questions they asked you in double-digit post numbers and which you spent the next 17 pages insisting you'd answered, if only they'd follow the inevitable slew of prisonplanet and troofloon links you'll cite as "evidence".

The case will be heard, the loony will get his knuckles rapped by the magistrate for a) not having a licence, and b) wasting everyone's time for three hours, assuming he doesn't get a night in the cells for contempt. Which, no doubt, will be regarded in Certain Quarters as incontrovertible evidence that The Man doesn't want our hero to be speaking his unpalatable truths.

There, that's 50 pages saved.



Jazzz said:


> the Magistrate has already accepted the defence as 'arguable', hence the three hour hearing.


Ah. So you're reading into the magistrate's decision to be as painstaking as possible not to feed this guy's evident persecution complex as validation for his loontastic theories?


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## butchersapron (Feb 18, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> from the comments:
> 
> 
> To make it clear.
> ...


They also have links to holocaust denier and mate of Jazzz Nick Kollerstrom. Jazz himself claimed to have gone to brum to interview their then leader over claims_ the jews_ were really behind 7/7.


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## frogwoman (Feb 18, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> They also have links to holocaust denier and mate of Jazzz Nick Kollerstrom. Jazz himself claimed to have gone to brum to interview their then leader over claims_ the jews_ were really behind 7/7.


 
they onlyt seem to have 4 members though


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## existentialist (Feb 18, 2013)

Also, I can't help wondering, if this guy is so down on the mainstream media, why he even bothers to watch ANY television, and thus needs a licence in the first place. Or maybe he regards it as "keeping the enemy under surveillance"?

Furthermore, what a shame he couldn't have logged on and spoken to longdog, who could have helpfully explained to him exactly what to do to avoid being persecuted by the evil forces of Television Licensing.


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## frogwoman (Feb 18, 2013)

only ever a few steps away. fucks sake.


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## sihhi (Feb 18, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> That's the notoriously homophobic and anti-semitic Islamic Party of Britain that reprints stuff from open nazis and facists like Alexander Baron. Only ever a few steps...


 
Pidcock was on Nicky Campbell's Sunday show, managed to avoid any questions about any of that stuff.

http://www.thestar.co.uk/lifestyle/...the-remarkable-life-of-david-pidcock-1-311978



> The city should mint it's own money. So says David Pidcock, Sheffield-born economist, writer, engineer and Muslim who's faith outlaws the charging of interest.
> "Sheffield introduced quantitative easing in 1600 and issued its own money. Sheffield could do it again now.
> "All you have to do is issue money with no interest to the bank, spend it into circulation and retire it through taxation and money supply problems are solved.
> "There is no need to borrow money and pay interest that only serves the banks."
> But how can such a simple solution have been overlooked by economists and politicians for centuries?


 



> And he believes he has the answers to recession and the financial turmoil of the past two years. Too good to be true? Not according to father of two David who knows a thing or two about 'money supply' issues having, he says, _*lost £400,000 to the banks in dubious circumstances*_. He's hoping to put his views to the electorate before the General Election in May when he hopes to stand in Sheffield as a candidate for the Islamic party Of Great Britain. "The secret is the control of the money supply," he said. "We can resolve the world's financial problems in 24 hours. Debt and interest are choking the world. Debt causes war, famine and impoverishment to people everywhere."


 


> Money. Banks and money. Banks and power, influence, corruption and money. “I was defrauded by the banks on three occasions,” said the man who_* made millions from buying and selling engineering equipment*_ around the world and who once owned Bramley Park near Rotherham and a house in the south of France.


 
He also believes that Napoleon became a practising Muslim.


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## butchersapron (Feb 18, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> They also have links to holocaust denier and mate of Jazzz Nick Kollerstrom. Jazz himself claimed to have gone to brum to interview their then leader over claims_ the jews_ were really behind 7/7.


Their former leader used to be a RESPECT bigwig and very influential player in brum politics (that thread is well worth the read if you have a spare hour).


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## existentialist (Feb 18, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Lovely voice this Tony


Hmmm. I thought it was a bit affected. But kudos to him for sticking it up on Youtube - that's more chutzpah than I'd have.

Reckon it's Jazzz tinkling the ivories?


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## butchersapron (Feb 18, 2013)

existentialist said:


> Hmmm. I thought it was a bit affected. But kudos to him for sticking it up on Youtube - that's more chutzpah than I'd have.
> 
> Reckon it's Jazzz tinkling the ivories?


Good question!


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## DotCommunist (Feb 18, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> only ever a few steps away. fucks sake.


 

'did six million really watch my shitty youtube vids?'


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## equationgirl (Feb 18, 2013)

Jazzz

The journal you link to in the OP is not a peer-reviewed journal and the authors are not independent. It's most certainly not scientifically rigourous or unbiased.


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## existentialist (Feb 18, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> Jazzz
> 
> The journal you link to in the OP is not a peer-reviewed journal and the authors are not independent. It's most certainly not scientifically rigourous or unbiased.


I don't think such trivialities are of much concern to our mutual friend


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## Wilf (Feb 18, 2013)

sihhi said:


> He also believes that Napoleon became a practising Muslim.


 To be honest, that theory's been blownapart.


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## Wilf (Feb 18, 2013)

To be honest Jazzz, I'm not really fussed if you get a bit of fun out of posting this occasional nonsense - or indeed if you think it's _true_ (wholeheartedly? A bit? Whatever floats yer boat.). You get plenty of stick back - again, something you must be okay about, maybe validates you in some way?  Just a pity that, _for once_, you won't distance yourself from the racists and antisemites in your 'movement'.


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## beesonthewhatnow (Feb 18, 2013)

Wilf said:


> To be honest Jazzz, I'm not really fussed if you get a bit of fun out of posting this occasional nonsense - or indeed if you think it's _true_ (wholeheartedly? A bit? Whatever floats yer boat.). You get plenty of stick back - again, something you must be okay about, maybe validates you in some way?  Just a pity that, _for once_, you won't distance yourself from the racists and antisemites in your 'movement'.


He can't distance himself or his whole house of cards comes crashing down. He's stuck.


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## fogbat (Feb 18, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> only ever a few steps away. fucks sake.


Always.

Have you noticed how the good captain has started self-identifying as a Jew, rather than just claim Jewish relatives?  _ Yeah, cause that'll make it all ok._.


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## Wilf (Feb 18, 2013)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> He can't distance himself or his whole house of cards comes crashing down. He's stuck.


Yeah, I'm sure you're right.  All these fellow-travellin' anti-semites _should_ be acting as woodworm within the bigger belief system. Should be.


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## goldenecitrone (Feb 18, 2013)




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## frogwoman (Feb 18, 2013)

fogbat said:


> Always.
> 
> Have you noticed how the good captain has started self-identifying as a Jew, rather than just claim Jewish relatives? _ Yeah, cause that'll make it all ok._.


 
to be fair I thought he'd always said he was Jewish.


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## fogbat (Feb 18, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> to be fair I thought he'd always said he was Jewish.


I only remember hearing it recently. 

If I was wrong, then I apologise to Jazzz. If that's the case, you've always used this opportunistically as the lying schmuck that you are, rather than only recently.


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## il_bastardo (Feb 18, 2013)

Predictable thread content. But can I ask what you all make of_ Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth_ and _Pilots for 9/11 Truth_ though? Because it bothers me that thousands of people who are certainly _sufficiently qualified _[i.e. not deluded, ranting freemen and/or members of the tinfoil hat brigade regurgitating what they've read on the interwebs] to form opinions in their areas of relevant technical expertise are stating that the official story is _blatant bullshit_ - and so sure are they, that they've signed not just their names but their practice details on these petitions for all to see. What's that all about? Is this phenomenon as easy to dismiss? [Not sure why I'm asking you lot tho. Is any one here technically expert? Any architects? Structural engineers? Demolitions technicians? Pilots?]


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## fogbat (Feb 18, 2013)

il_bastardo said:


> Predictable thread content. But can I ask what you all make of_ Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth_ and _Pilots for 9/11 Truth_ though? Because it bothers me that thousands of people who are certainly _sufficiently qualified _[i.e. not deluded, ranting freemen and/or members of the tinfoil hat brigade regurgitating what they've read on the interwebs] to form opinions in their areas of relevant technical expertise are stating that the official story is _blatant bullshit_ - and so sure are they, that they've signed not just their names but their practice details on these petitions for all to see. What's that all about? Is this phenomenon as easy to dismiss? [Not sure why I'm asking you lot tho. Is any one here technically expert? Any architects? Structural engineers? Demolitions technicians? Pilots?]


The last time a proper architect argued this one with Jazzz, the Captain got pwned so hard that he couldn't sit down for a week.


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## existentialist (Feb 18, 2013)

il_bastardo said:


> Predictable thread content. But can I ask what you all make of_ Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth_ and _Pilots for 9/11 Truth_ though? Because it bothers me that thousands of people who are certainly _sufficiently qualified _[i.e. not deluded, ranting freemen and/or members of the tinfoil hat brigade regurgitating what they've read on the interwebs] to form opinions in their areas of relevant technical expertise are stating that the official story is _blatant bullshit_ - and so sure are they, that they've signed not just their names but their practice details on these petitions for all to see. What's that all about? Is this phenomenon as easy to dismiss? [Not sure why I'm asking you lot tho. Is any one here technically expert? Any architects? Engineers? Pilots?]


You have to accept that most of the so-called experts do turn out, in one way or another, to have some pretty major flaw - like, for example, the fact that they are, as someone's already pointed out, almost invariably ex- or former experts.

Not too put too fine a point on it, mental illness and delusionality doesn't just affect people who aren't high fliers, and some of the people who get wheeled out to support the usual suspects aren't exactly four beats to the bar...


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## Corax (Feb 18, 2013)

Wilf said:


> If I was a Horsham magistrate I'd probably be tidying my sock drawer on that day.


No way - they'll be queuing up for it!  Make a change from speeding tickets and littering.


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## existentialist (Feb 18, 2013)

fogbat said:


> The last time a proper architect argued this one with Jazzz, the Captain got pwned so hard that he couldn't sit down for a week.


Captain? And there was I thinking he was a Dr.


----------



## Wilf (Feb 18, 2013)

Corax said:


> No way - they'll be queuing up for it! Make a change from speeding tickets and littering.


"Mrs Hortinton-Cummerbund arrived at court for what she thought would be just another day on the bench..."


----------



## existentialist (Feb 18, 2013)

Wilf said:


> "Mrs Hortinton-Cummerbund arrived at court for what she thought would be just another day on the bench..."


"Little did she know she was about to play her part in the unfolding of possibly the greatest political and historical drama of our time."


----------



## il_bastardo (Feb 18, 2013)

existentialist said:


> You have to accept that most of the so-called experts do turn out, in one way or another, to have some pretty major flaw - like, for example, the fact that they are, as someone's already pointed out, almost invariably ex- or former experts.
> 
> Not too put too fine a point on it, mental illness and delusionality doesn't just affect people who aren't high fliers, and some of the people who get wheeled out to support the usual suspects aren't exactly four beats to the bar...


 
For sure nuttery knows know bounds. I thought of this too but decided it's too lazy and sweeping to dismiss them *all* on these grounds. Thanks for answering tho.


----------



## fogbat (Feb 18, 2013)

existentialist said:


> Captain? And there was I thinking he was a Dr.


Captain Facepalm. Worst superhero since Doctor Shitshimself.


----------



## Combustible (Feb 18, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> shades of freemanism


 
It sounds like a Freemanistic attempt to appeal to the power of common law to overthrow the Jews.


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 18, 2013)

fogbat said:


> The last time a proper architect argued this one with Jazzz, the Captain got pwned so hard that he couldn't sit down for a week.


 

He has been walking like jon wayne ever since etc


----------



## Jazzz (Feb 18, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> Jazzz
> 
> The journal you link to in the OP is not a peer-reviewed journal and the authors are not independent. It's most certainly not scientifically rigourous or unbiased.


It's a news report, not a paper


----------



## fogbat (Feb 18, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> He has been walking like jon wayne ever since etc


Less authority.


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 18, 2013)

Combustible said:


> It sounds like a Freemanistic attempt to appeal to the power of common law to overthrow the Jews.


 

I've seen them controlling the TV with my own eyes. At the missis house when she ha the remote. Cse closed


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 18, 2013)

fogbat said:


> Less authority.


 

follows the same motto, never apologise- never explain


----------



## fogbat (Feb 18, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> follows the same motto, never apologise- never explain


Be racist.


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 18, 2013)

they also control the internets


We all know what the P in HTTP stands for. Thats right- Protocol. The okrahna rests etc


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 18, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> they also control the internets
> 
> 
> We all know what the P in HTTP stands for. Thats right- Protocol. The okrahna rests etc


 
I have got the power to turn off the internet when I press F2 on the laptop.


----------



## Jazzz (Feb 18, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> They also have links to holocaust denier and mate of Jazzz Nick Kollerstrom. Jazz himself claimed to have gone to brum to interview their then leader over claims_ the jews_ were really behind 7/7.


I am reluctant to even dignify such gross misrepresentation/outright lies with a reply BA.


----------



## equationgirl (Feb 18, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> * Historic Case to Challenge BBC’s 9/11Coverage *
> 
> <snip>
> 
> ...


 
No, you see that bit in bold that says 'official scientific journal'? That's the journal that I'm referring to - the journal that isn't peer reviewed and is therefore meaningless in terms of scientific basis.

The day you actually properly read something you quote it will be a sodding miracle. You always do this. You always deny you've posted something. Your feigned ignorance is tedious.


----------



## DexterTCN (Feb 18, 2013)

existentialist said:


> ..There, that's 50 pages saved...


Shhh...it keeps everyone happy.   These threads are like those womens' self-defence classes where there's a guy all padded up they can kick the shit out of, beat with clubs, jump on his balls etc.

That's not referring to Jazz, I mean the thread.   It's like the actors trying out for Atticus Finch.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Feb 18, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> I am reluctant to even dignify such gross misrepresentation/outright lies with a reply BA.


So what was your reason for visiting Birmingham with the known holocaust denier Nick Kollerstrom then?


----------



## il_bastardo (Feb 18, 2013)

fogbat said:


> The last time a proper architect argued this one with Jazzz, the Captain got pwned so hard that he couldn't sit down for a week.


 
Thanks Fogbat. Have you got any tips for finding the thread [maybe approximate date.... or a memorable cuss I could try searching for]? I'm not in any of those professions so I'm interested to read the refutations of someone who knows their onions. Or buildings.


----------



## Jazzz (Feb 18, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> Jazzz
> 
> The journal you link to in the OP is not a peer-reviewed journal and the authors are not independent. It's most certainly not scientifically rigourous or unbiased.


Oh forgive me, you are referring to Niels Harrit's paper.

I think the point about his research is:

1) Niels Harrit is without question a distinguished scientist
2) No scientist of any repute has rebutted his research

Any science questioning the official narrative of 9/11 is taboo: any editor of journals publishing such science will find themselves out of a job. This was the case with Marie-Paule Pileni:




> The editor in chief of the journal where recently the paper: "Active Thermitic Material Discovered in Dust from the 9/11 World Trade Center Catastrophe" was published, resigned, claiming she wasn't informed of the publication. She proceeds to provide not a single solid scientific rebuttal, only administrative bickering and personal political bias against, well.. inconvenient science. One particularly notable comment attributed to Ms. Pileni is this one: _"Marie-Paule Pileni points out that because the topic lies outside her field of expertise, she cannot judge whether the article in itself is good or bad."_


http://911blogger.com/topics/niels-harrit


----------



## goldenecitrone (Feb 18, 2013)

fogbat said:


> The last time a proper architect argued this one with Jazzz, the Captain got pwned so hard that he couldn't sit down for a week.


 
Then the structural engineer gave him a going over and he couldn't walk straight for a month. Can't remember any pilots though.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Feb 18, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> Any science questioning the official narrative of 9/11 is taboo: any editor of journals publishing such science will find themselves out of a job.


The lack of evidence is the evidence


----------



## editor (Feb 18, 2013)

Jazz: please address this point because it's something you brought up. You abd your fellow 9/11 cronies demand the highest levels f proof and evidence, but why aren't you also investigating the people making comspiracy claims with the same vigour?

Let's start with the claimed 'peer-reviewed study in an official scientific journal.'

Even the briefest of glances at this claim should set alarm bells ringing, but you don;t seem interested in checking the credentials of items that form the very pillar of your beliefs.

I don't want to burden you with too many questions, so I'll just ask for your opinion on this background to the publishers you are referring to as an 'official scientific journal. Do they sound like a credible organisation to you?


> Bentham Open journals claim to employ peer review;[4] however, some reports that a fake paper generated with SCIgen had been accepted for publication, have cast doubt on this.[5][6][7] Furthermore, the publisher is known for spamming scientists with invitations to become a member of the editorial board of its journals.[8]
> 
> In 2007, the Bentham Open Science journal, The Open Chemical Physics Journal, published a study contending dust from the World Trade Center disaster contained "active nanothermite".[9] Following publication, the journal's editor-in-chief Marie-Paule Pileni resigned stating, "They have printed the article without my authorization… I have written to Bentham, that I withdraw myself from all activities with them".[10]


----------



## Firky (Feb 18, 2013)

You have to be the thickest skinned poster ever to register to U75, jazzz. I don't know how you sustain your level of commitment to err.. quackery. You're a fruitcake that takes some stick.


----------



## il_bastardo (Feb 18, 2013)

goldenecitrone said:


> Then the structural engineer gave him a going over and he couldn't walk straight for a month. Can't remember any pilots though.


XD


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Feb 18, 2013)

firky said:


> You have to be the thickest skinned poster ever to register to U75, jazzz. You're a fruitcake but you take some stick.


He takes nothing that isn't deserved. The stuff he posted up the other week about the recent school shootings in America was disgusting.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Feb 18, 2013)




----------



## Jazzz (Feb 18, 2013)

editor I'm not getting into microdebates on this thread, especially when I am quite sure that your moderation team has shut down discussion on precisely the topic you are asking about.


----------



## cesare (Feb 18, 2013)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> He takes nothing that isn't deserved. The stuff he posted up the other week about the recent school shootings in America was disgusting.



You get similar sort of shit wheeled out on Assange threads. The search for truth supposedly providing the searcher/s with a free pass for whatever other shit they become embroiled in.


----------



## Roadkill (Feb 18, 2013)

il_bastardo said:


> Thanks Fogbat. Have you got any tips for finding the thread [maybe approximate date.... or a memorable cuss I could try searching for]? I'm not in any of those professions so I'm interested to read the refutations of someone who knows their onions. Or buildings.


 
This is the thread.

135 pages of the tedious ever-decreasing circles that one of Jazzz's conspiracy theories tends to generate, livened only by rorymac.  Twice.


----------



## editor (Feb 18, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> editor I'm not getting into microdebates on this thread, especially when I am quite sure that your moderation team has shut down discussion on precisely the topic you are asking about.


I've asked you to support an important central part of your claim that you posted up. It was a simple, direct question.

Please respond otherwise it'll look like you're being more evasive than a secretive government agency.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 18, 2013)




----------



## DexterTCN (Feb 18, 2013)

cesare said:


> You get similar sort of shit wheeled out on Assange threads...


Whassat? I don't go on there, it's like a bible training class to see who's most judgemental.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 18, 2013)

Roadkill said:


> This is the thread.
> 
> 135 pages of the tedious ever-decreasing circles that one of Jazzz's conspiracy theories tends to generate, livened only by rorymac. Twice.


  

Fucking bless you rorymac. When you were on form, you were a marvel.


----------



## fogbat (Feb 18, 2013)

firky said:


> You have to be the thickest skinned poster ever to register to U75, jazzz. I don't know how you sustain your level of commitment to err.. quackery. You're a fruitcake that takes some stick.


It gets him hard


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 18, 2013)




----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 18, 2013)

fogbat said:


> It gets him hard


I have an image in my head now.


----------



## Jazzz (Feb 18, 2013)

editor said:


> I've asked you to support an important central part of your claim that you posted up. It was a simple, direct question.


My claim here is that "UK Courtroom to hear evidence against the official narrative of 9/11".

If you me to get involved in a microdebate on Harrit it's a bit rich because I've more than likely already posted at length on the subject.


----------



## fogbat (Feb 18, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I have an image in my head now.


There's something so very compulsive and  masturbatory about these threads. It's the only explanation.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 18, 2013)

fogbat said:


> It gets him hard





frogwoman said:


>


 
And now I've got that same image but this kid in my head.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 18, 2013)

fogbat said:


> There's something so very compulsive and masturbatory about these threads. It's the only explanation.


You seem to appear on them with suspicious regularity.


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 18, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> My claim here is that "UK Courtroom to hear evidence against the official narrative of 9/11".
> 
> If you me to get involved in a microdebate on Harrit it's a bit rich because I've more than likely already posted at length on the subject.


 

you realise that he's not going to get to wank on about hologrammatic jews and is just going to take a fine for non payment don't you?


----------



## fogbat (Feb 18, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> You seem to appear on them with suspicious regularity.


Oh, it's the only thing that gets me hard.


----------



## DexterTCN (Feb 18, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> You seem to appear on them with suspicious regularity.


You're the one thinking of his cock.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 18, 2013)

fogbat said:


> Oh, it's the only thing that gets me hard.


Jazzz. Servicing the internet since 2001.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 18, 2013)

DexterTCN said:


> You're the one thinking of his cock.


I've moved on. I'm thinking of fogbat's cock now thankyouverymuch.


----------



## fogbat (Feb 18, 2013)

DexterTCN said:


> You're the one thinking of his cock.


I like to think we are all, in a very real way, thinking about my cock.


----------



## il_bastardo (Feb 18, 2013)

Roadkill said:


> This is the thread.
> 
> 135 pages of the tedious ever-decreasing circles that one of Jazzz's conspiracy theories tends to generate, livened only by rorymac. Twice.


 
Thank you. [And doubly so if it was an arse-ache to find.]

ETA. you weren't kidding; tedious as fuck.


----------



## DexterTCN (Feb 18, 2013)

fogbat said:


> I like to think we are all, in a very real way, thinking about my cock.


I was talking about jazz's jizzjuicer...but now, of course, yours as well.


----------



## equationgirl (Feb 18, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> editor I'm not getting into microdebates on this thread, especially when I am quite sure that your moderation team has shut down discussion on precisely the topic you are asking about.


How is this a microdebate? You (yet again) posted up an article that scientists have distanced themselves from, in a journal that is dubious to say the least. You've (yet again) been called on it.

If you insist on posting these threads, you have to deal with the consequences.

And the courtroom isn't hearing evidence on 9/11 - if so surely the BBC would be reporting it, or the Mail or SOMEBODY ffs - he's being done for not paying his TV licence.


----------



## DexterTCN (Feb 18, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> ...If you insist on posting these threads, you have to deal with the consequences....


----------



## editor (Feb 18, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> My claim here is that "UK Courtroom to hear evidence against the official narrative of 9/11".
> 
> If you me to get involved in a microdebate on Harrit it's a bit rich because I've more than likely already posted at length on the subject.


For a self-styled truth seeker you sure seem awfully keen to avoid telling the truth here.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 18, 2013)




----------



## equationgirl (Feb 18, 2013)

frogwoman said:


>


actual LOLs  cheers frogwoman


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 18, 2013)

I'm up for indecency again next week. I know - but nude Wednesday is nude Wednesday. I'll be taking the opportunity to explain how the forces that are after me to cover up my littlest baby j are merely a front for the secret powers that faked the Olympics. I was here, in London, and it was _suspiciously quiet_. Those of us in the know had already fled the East End. Those who were left, well, did you not notice how everyone came back from the 'events' all smiley-faced? Those false memories don't leave real emotions. They're dead inside.


----------



## Jazzz (Feb 19, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> How is this a microdebate? You (yet again) posted up an article that scientists have distanced themselves from, in a journal that is dubious to say the least. You've (yet again) been called on it.
> 
> If you insist on posting these threads, you have to deal with the consequences.


You aren't very familiar with the history of 9/11 discussion on these boards are you 

I've started threads on this very topic before. It's not me that has been reluctant to discuss them - the threads have got binned, because of urban75 censorship/closedmindedness.

If you want to discuss Niels Harrit's paper then I will happily do so again (although I have less time to post on urban75 than a few years ago these days) but it can be on another thread. I'm not getting into it here, only to find that the thread gets binned because it's discussing the topic. Take it up with fridgemagnet.



> And the courtroom isn't hearing evidence on 9/11 - if so surely the BBC would be reporting it, or the Mail or SOMEBODY ffs - he's being done for not paying his TV licence.


equationgirl! Somebody IS reporting it - I am reporting it to you, informationclearinghouse is reporting it, I can show the email I got from Ian Henshall if you like!


----------



## il_bastardo (Feb 19, 2013)

Jazzz, why do you post this stuff here? What outcome are you hoping for? ...if any?


----------



## stuff_it (Feb 19, 2013)

DexterTCN said:


> Shhh...it keeps everyone happy. These threads are like those womens' self-defence classes where there's a guy all padded up they can kick the shit out of, beat with clubs, jump on his balls etc.
> 
> That's not referring to Jazz, I mean the thread. It's like the actors trying out for Atticus Finch.


----------



## equationgirl (Feb 19, 2013)

Jazzz : I will say this clearly so perhaps this time you will pay attention.

Information Clearing House is not a reputable news source and you know it.

I don't want to discuss Niels' paper - it's not worthy of being called a scientific journal article. 

I strongly disagree that there is censorship on U75, or general closemindedness. 

Now I have to go and bang my head off a wall for a bit.


----------



## stuff_it (Feb 19, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> How is this a microdebate? You (yet again) posted up an article that scientists have distanced themselves from, in a journal that is dubious to say the least. You've (yet again) been called on it.
> 
> If you insist on posting these threads, you have to deal with the consequences.
> 
> And the courtroom isn't hearing evidence on 9/11 - if so surely the BBC would be reporting it, or the Mail or SOMEBODY ffs - he's being done for not paying his TV licence.


He's right, my moderation team (otherwise known as my brain) is stifling me from believing the OP.It's not closed mindedness though, just a healthy regard for what is and isn't proper evidence.


----------



## Wilf (Feb 19, 2013)

stuff_it said:


> my moderation team (otherwise known as my brain) .


----------



## MikeMcc (Feb 19, 2013)

Awesome, can we please do the whole umpteen thousand post thing all over again?  I'd forgotten how much fun it was...


----------



## mojo pixy (Feb 19, 2013)

il_bastardo said:


> Predictable thread content. But can I ask what you all make of_ Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth_ and _Pilots for 9/11 Truth_ though? Because it bothers me that thousands of people who are certainly _sufficiently qualified _[i.e. not deluded, ranting freemen and/or members of the tinfoil hat brigade regurgitating what they've read on the interwebs] to form opinions in their areas of relevant technical expertise are stating that the official story is _blatant bullshit_ - and so sure are they, that they've signed not just their names but their practice details on these petitions for all to see. What's that all about? Is this phenomenon as easy to dismiss? [Not sure why I'm asking you lot tho. Is any one here technically expert? Any architects? Structural engineers? Demolitions technicians? Pilots?]


 
Couple of years ago, I crunched some numbers as part of a "discussion" on the event casually referred to as 9/11. This post is copied and pasted from my notes with small edits to update the numbers to be relevant today (19/2/13)

The ae911truth site says that 1774 Architects and Engineers belong to AE911Truth...

*1: ARCHITECTS*

AIA (American Institute of Architects) membership is about 80 000

So if _all_ the members of AE911Truth were architects and _all_ were members of the AIA, it would mean that about *2.2%* of all american architects belonged to AE911Truth.

*2: ENGINEERS*

ASCE (American Society of Civil Engineers) membership is about 140 000.

So if _all_ the members of AE911Truth were civil engineers and _all_ were members of the ASCE, it would mean that about *1.3%* of all american engineers belonged to AE911Truth)




The membership of ae911truth is really not that impressive.


----------



## editor (Feb 19, 2013)

I wonder believe those numbers for a second. Here's what the Architect (the Magazine of the American Institute of Architects) have to say about gage and his fantasies. Perhaps you'd like to comment on this report, Jazzz?



> Architects Shy From Truther 9/11 Conspiracy Theory
> _Architects didn't show up for a 9/11-architecture-conspiracy documentary screening—and the AIA doesn't want its name associated with Trutherism._
> 
> The boardroom at the Washington, D.C., headquarters of the American Institute of Architects is an impressive place: Beautiful concentric wooden desks, with microphones in front of every seat, encircle a small central dais, offering the impression that important discussions are had here. “It feels like the United Nations,” a guest recently commented.
> ...


More here: http://www.architectmagazine.com/architecture/architects-shy-from-truther-conspiracy-theory_1.aspx


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Feb 19, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> bollocks, probably not free on that day anyway and looks like you have to change in london


 
are you simply talking about changing trains?

or transmogrification into a lizard?


----------



## existentialist (Feb 19, 2013)

mojo pixy said:


> The membership of ae911truth is really not that impressive.


Ah, but you see that's because they *know* that TPTB would persecute them relentlessly if they signed up publicly. The 9/11 truth movement has had billions of the architectural/engineering equivalent of PMs of support from the majority of architects, and engineers, though. And the used car salesmen captioned a picture of a cat, too.


----------



## likesfish (Feb 19, 2013)

Horsham judges are going to need several stiff after this lunacy unfolds on them?


----------



## Kaka Tim (Feb 19, 2013)

If only they could televise the proceedings. 

Its gonner be like the scopes monkey trial.


(Not the famous one - the one where John Thomas Scopes forgot to pay for his monkey license).


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 19, 2013)

likesfish said:


> Horsham judges are going to need several stiff after this lunacy unfolds on them?


It's not going to unfold - these vaunted three hours is simply these idiots misreading being told they will be heard in the 10am-1pm session as them being allotted three hours to present their case - rather than them being heard alongside many others in that session. They've even managed to either totally misread or lie about the most basic of intro information


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Feb 19, 2013)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> So what was your reason for visiting Birmingham with the known holocaust denier Nick Kollerstrom then?


Care to answer this Jazzz


----------



## el-ahrairah (Feb 19, 2013)

fogbat said:


> I like to think we are all, in a very real way, thinking about my cock.


 
i wasn't.  but now i am.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Feb 19, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> It's not going to unfold - these vaunted three hours is simply these idiots misreading being told they will be heard in the 10am-1pm session as them being allotted three hours to present their case - rather then them being heard alongside many others in that session. They've even managed to either totally misread or lie about the most basic of intro information


 
 Brilliant. If you wrote a pisstake of conspiracy nuts you couldn't do better than this.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Feb 19, 2013)

Kaka Tim said:


> If only they could televise the proceedings.
> 
> Its gonner be like the scopes monkey trial.
> 
> ...


 
my cuppa was introduced to my monitor via the medium of hysterical laughter.  post of the day so far.


----------



## badseed (Feb 19, 2013)

Should the thread title be "TV Licence dodger plans irrelevant tirade at hearing" ?


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 19, 2013)

likesfish said:


> Horsham judges are going to need several stiff after this lunacy unfolds on them?


 
Horsham Magistrates are going to take about 3 minutes to fine this tool for having no tv licence, then kick him out on his arse. 

It could be worth going along to watch, tbf!


----------



## editor (Feb 19, 2013)

The jury listens intently to the compelling 9/11 conspiraloon evidence:


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 19, 2013)

No jury, just the magistrates. Which makes it all the more laughable that "evidence against the official narrative" will be heard.


----------



## existentialist (Feb 19, 2013)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Care to answer this Jazzz


Somehow I doubt it.


----------



## cesare (Feb 19, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> It's not going to unfold - these vaunted three hours is simply these idiots misreading being told they will be heard in the 10am-1pm session as them being allotted three hours to present their case - rather than them being heard alongside many others in that session. They've even managed to either totally misread or lie about the most basic of intro information


They've probably been instructed to arrive for 10am and the case will be heard as soon as possible after then. So they'll be left waiting until 12.55.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 19, 2013)

il_bastardo said:


> Predictable thread content. But can I ask what you all make of_ Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth_ and _Pilots for 9/11 Truth_ though? Because it bothers me that thousands of people who are certainly _sufficiently qualified _[i.e. not deluded, ranting freemen and/or members of the tinfoil hat brigade regurgitating what they've read on the interwebs] to form opinions in their areas of relevant technical expertise are stating that the official story is _blatant bullshit_ - and so sure are they, that they've signed not just their names but their practice details on these petitions for all to see. What's that all about? Is this phenomenon as easy to dismiss? [Not sure why I'm asking you lot tho. Is any one here technically expert? Any architects? Structural engineers? Demolitions technicians? Pilots?]


 
I find most of the individual expert testimony plausible. What I don't find plausible is the synthesis of those individual expert testimonies into a coherent narrative, mostly because such narratives pick and choose the testimony that fits the thesis of the narrative best, and take for granted the veracity and validity of that testimony, even if it is unsupported by the rest of the "expert community" for that subject.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 19, 2013)

Dotty's going to be round on the 25th so we could try and head up to Horsham and see what's going on...

or maybe not


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 19, 2013)

fogbat said:


> Captain Facepalm. Worst superhero since Doctor Shitshimself.


 
It's spelled Cptin Fceplm, fool!


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 19, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> Dotty's going to be round on the 25th so we could try and head up to Horsham and see what's going on...
> 
> or maybe not


Sorry, no public seating in courtroom #3.

(i wonder why?!)


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 19, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Sorry, no public seating in courtroom #3.
> 
> (i wonder why?!)


It's those jews again


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 19, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> It's those jews again


Another example of Jews in law.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 19, 2013)

il_bastardo said:


> Jazzz, why do you post this stuff here? What outcome are you hoping for? ...if any?


 
I think you're assuming that Cptin Fceplm is posting this stuff in the hope of convincing/converting someone. He isn't. He's posting to boost his sense of self-respect. He's testifying his "truth" so that, like an evangelical Christian, he can feel smug about being better-informed than the atheists and agnostics.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 19, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Another example of Jews in law.


 

Not only are they controlling the TV and making a truth-seeker pay towards his own brainwashing they are now SUPPRESSING THE TRUTH FROM THE PUBLIC


----------



## killer b (Feb 19, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> I think you're assuming that Cptin Fceplm is posting this stuff in the hope of convincing/converting someone. He isn't. He's posting to boost his sense of self-respect. He's testifying his "truth" so that, like an evangelical Christian, he can feel smug about being better-informed than the atheists and agnostics.


 
tbh, i think he's just a) mad, and b) a bit of a cock.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 19, 2013)

Thank you jazzz for starting this thread and proving the utter lunacy of the cause you espouse. If 11 1/2 years after 911 the best your side can do is an albeit imaginative case for non-payment of tv licence on the grounds the bbc is a terrorist organisation, then the only value left in your cause is comedick value, and the only people attracted by it appear to be such sad-arses and fuckwits even a viz cartoon along the lines of 'june the 9/11 loon' would hesitate at some of the anticks conspiraloons get up to.


----------



## 8ball (Feb 19, 2013)

killer b said:


> tbh, i think he's just a) mad, and b) a bit of a cock.


 
I think the only real explanation left is some kind of organic brain illness.

He gets his ass handed to him and vanishes until the cognitive dissonance dies down, but rather than what happens with a normal mind, he just seems to eventually re-boot and come back with another piece of total crap a while later as if nothing has happened. 

He reminds me more of a broken computer than anything else.


----------



## rubbershoes (Feb 19, 2013)

8ball said:


> He reminds me more of a broken computer than anything else.


 
at least they can be recycled

hmmm.  meat pie, anyone?


----------



## existentialist (Feb 19, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> It's spelled Cptin Fceplm, fool!


I got a mild knucklerapping for doing that, though. Or maybe it was putting the  into his proper username, I forget now...

I think he must have been relentlessly reporting posts where it was happening, because I seem to recall it was quite prevalent at one time.


----------



## existentialist (Feb 19, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> Dotty's going to be round on the 25th so we could try and head up to Horsham and see what's going on...
> 
> or maybe not


I suspect you'd be in for fairly long periods of boredom with a couple of episodes of hysterical fun, lasting about two and a half minutes.


----------



## existentialist (Feb 19, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Sorry, no public seating in courtroom #3.
> 
> (i wonder why?!)


So the most anyone's going to hear about it might be a brief report in the West Sussex County Times (and I don't suppose even they bother reporting TV licence cases, although I suppose it might give them an excuse to report on a "minor fracas" in the magistrates' court, at best.

My money's on a total non-event, with chummy being handed a fine and a brief visit to the cells to reflect on whether his noble cause is worth his rather less noble liberty.

ETA: and a representation to the court from Jazzz, claiming that he can't get a fair trial as the case has been extensively discussed on that there Illumatinet.


----------



## Jazzz (Feb 19, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> Jazzz : I will say this clearly so perhaps this time you will pay attention.
> 
> Information Clearing House is not a reputable news source and you know it.
> 
> ...


So you are demanding I enter discussion with you on a topic, then you are saying you don't want to discuss it? Nice move.

I would say that informationclearinghouse is more reputable than the BBC which I view as a discredited news source. Your opinion may be different. That's fine! I'm just filling you guys in. What you make of things is up to you.

Happy banging!


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Feb 19, 2013)

Are you going to answer my question Jazzz


----------



## editor (Feb 19, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> So you are demanding I enter discussion with you on a topic, then you are saying you don't want to discuss it? Nice move.
> 
> I would say that informationclearinghouse has greater 'credibility' than the BBC. Your opinion may be different. That's fine! I'm just filling you guys in. What you make of things is up to you.
> 
> Happy banging!


How you deal with the thorny question of the credibility of the supposed 'peer reviewed' study you cited in your opening post?


----------



## Jazzz (Feb 19, 2013)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Are you going to answer my question Jazzz


If you are asking, must I get sidetraked by totally irrelevant stuff which was already done to death several years ago, the answer is no.


----------



## editor (Feb 19, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> If you are asking, must I get sidetraked by totally irrelevant stuff which was already done to death several years ago, the answer is no.


My question was absolutely central to your opening post.


----------



## Jazzz (Feb 19, 2013)

editor said:


> My question was absolutely central to your opening post.


Well are you happy for a thread on the topic of the nanothermitic residue found in sample of dust from the World Trade Centre? You certainly should be. If you are, then we'll kick it off there.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Feb 19, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> If you are asking, must I get sidetraked by totally irrelevant stuff which was already done to death several years ago, the answer is no.


I don't think it's irellevant at all. You consistantly bring your jewish heritage up when faced with the anti semitic accusations these topics bring, yet not only have always refused to condemn a known holocaust denier, but apparently spent a day with him conducting "research". I'd say this rather undermines your credibility.


----------



## equationgirl (Feb 19, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> So you are demanding I enter discussion with you on a topic, then you are saying you don't want to discuss it? Nice move.
> 
> I would say that informationclearinghouse is more reputable than the BBC which I view as a discredited news source. Your opinion may be different. That's fine! I'm just filling you guys in. What you make of things is up to you.
> 
> Happy banging!


I said I wasn't discussing it with you. Perhaps THE REALLY REALLY BIG FONT will make it superclear:

I'M NOT DISCUSSING THIS WITH YOU.

I also think you should check the dictionary definition of 'demand'.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Feb 19, 2013)




----------



## editor (Feb 19, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> Well are you happy for a thread on the topic of the nanothermitic residue found in sample of dust from the World Trade Centre? You certainly should be. If you are, then we'll kick it off there.


You can't answer because you're too embarrassed. There I've said it for you.


----------



## Jazzz (Feb 19, 2013)

editor said:


> You can't answer because you're too embarrassed. There I've said it for you.


Let's see which of us is embarrassed.


----------



## editor (Feb 19, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> Let's see which of us is embarrassed.


So are you saying that Bentham Open journals are a credible publisher of 'peer reviewed' papers? A simple yes or no will suffice for now.


----------



## killer b (Feb 19, 2013)

tbf, jazzz is clearly beyond embarrassment.


----------



## goldenecitrone (Feb 19, 2013)

killer b said:


> tbf, jazzz is clearly beyond embarrassment.


 
That's true. Embarrassment usually involves some insight and self-awareness.


----------



## 8115 (Feb 19, 2013)

My sides hurt.

Is nanothermic residue a real thing?


----------



## Jazzz (Feb 19, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> I said I wasn't discussing it with you. Perhaps THE REALLY REALLY BIG FONT will make it superclear:
> 
> I'M NOT DISCUSSING THIS WITH YOU.
> 
> I also think you should check the dictionary definition of 'demand'.


Have you tried just not posting on topics you don't wish to discuss?


----------



## equationgirl (Feb 19, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> Have you tried just not posting on topics you don't wish to discuss?


Have you actually tried answering questions when asked?


----------



## equationgirl (Feb 19, 2013)

editor said:


> So are you saying that Bentham Open journals are a credible publisher of 'peer reviewed' papers? A simple yes or no will suffice for now.


Only if credible = as dodgy as they come. Which, considering the inverse dictionary he's using, is a distinct possibility.


----------



## editor (Feb 19, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> Let's see which of us is embarrassed.


Can you remember when you first started posting this stuff up, people were interested enough to listen to what was being said and happy to try and test the various alternative theories being posited.

After some twelve years of you having absolute freedom to post up these theories and cite your sources and research, why is it, do you think, that barely a soul out of all the posters here thinks they have any credibility at all?

I'd say that there's some pretty smart posters on urban75 and many of them have a strong distrust of the establishment, yet you've singularly failed to gain any headway with the many, many theories and alternative scenarios you've posted here. In fact, the more 'research' you post up, the less support you seem to garner.

Why is that, do you think? Have you any theories why the posters on this board almost unilaterally reject your theories (and those of the sites and organisations you support)?


----------



## equationgirl (Feb 19, 2013)

8115 said:


> My sides hurt.
> 
> Is nanothermic residue a real thing?


Well nanothermites exist - they've been investigated for a number of uses including military applications. Here's a wiki summary article based on many research pieces for some info :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nano-thermite

I don't pretend to understand this, I'm not a metallurgist.


----------



## goldenecitrone (Feb 19, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> I don't pretend to understand this, I'm not a metallurgist.


 
Does one really need to be a metallurgist to understand nanothermic residue? Surely you can just google some info on it and voila, you're an expert.


----------



## Zapp Brannigan (Feb 19, 2013)

Started writing trying to add something constructive, deleted it 'cos CBA.  So instead:

*Jazzz IS A LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOON*


----------



## Dan U (Feb 19, 2013)

editor said:


> Can you remember when you first started posting this stuff up, people were interested enough to listen to what was being said and happy to try and test the various alternative theories being posited.
> 
> After some twelve years of you having absolute freedom to post up these theories and cite your sources and research, why is it, do you think, that barely a soul out of all the posters here thinks they have any credibility at all?
> 
> ...



Sheeple 
Hive mind

Etc. 

jazzz you are a nutter. You are going to look such a cunt when none of this happens


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Feb 19, 2013)

Zapp Brannigan said:


> Started writing trying to add something constructive, deleted it 'cos CBA. So instead:
> 
> *Jazzz IS A LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOON*


Needed to be in green comic sans really.


----------



## Jazzz (Feb 19, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> Have you actually tried answering questions when asked?


Yes, and I'm happy to give it another go for you (assuming you want to discuss it after all!), I've started a thread in WP on nanothermite and the WTC.


----------



## Zapp Brannigan (Feb 19, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> Yes, and I'm happy to give it another go for you (assuming you want to discuss it after all!), I've started a thread in WP on nanothermite and the WTC.


 
Hurray!


----------



## sihhi (Feb 19, 2013)

Dan U said:


> Sheeple
> Hive mind
> 
> Etc.
> ...


 

The people this kind of stuff just create new reasons as to why it doesn't happen. In fact in all probability they know it's not a real case but one where a magistrate will ask for a fine, then bailiffs might remove a television in lieu if unpaid, but it has to be spun into a climbdown by the courts afraid of revealing the truth. The event in due course will become a fact in the suppression of truth to add to other such facts. Ultimately people need to be strung along enough so are tempted to try and understand it all and become superior by buying fascinating and not at all anti-semitic books like:







It's vicious stuff really.


----------



## equationgirl (Feb 19, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> Yes, and I'm happy to give it another go for you (assuming you want to discuss it after all!), I've started a thread in WP on nanothermite and the WTC.


I refer my colleague to my earlier post which clearly stated:

I. DO. NOT. WISH. TO. DISCUSS. THIS.

Which bit of this do you not understand?


----------



## youngian (Feb 19, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> February 25th at 10:00 am
> 
> Horsham Magistrates’ Court [Court 3]
> The Law Courts
> ...


 
I take it UKIP canvassers in near by Eastleigh will thin on the ground on the 25th.


----------



## DexterTCN (Feb 19, 2013)

You lot should all thank Jazz for the exercise you get in these threads, with your racing hearts and your shouting. 

When Jazz posts I don't see any dishonesty or trolling.   It's just like a religious person, pretty much the same.

He's less annoying though.

And he's polite, too.   You can tell a lot about people the way they post, sometimes.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Feb 19, 2013)

DexterTCN said:


> When Jazz posts I don't see any dishonesty


May I politely suggest that you learn to read?


----------



## DexterTCN (Feb 19, 2013)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> May I politely suggest that you learn to read?


You think he's lying?


----------



## Jazzz (Feb 19, 2013)

editor said:


> Can you remember when you first started posting this stuff up, people were interested enough to listen to what was being said and happy to try and test the various alternative theories being posited.
> 
> After some twelve years of you having absolute freedom to post up these theories and cite your sources and research, why is it, do you think, that barely a soul out of all the posters here thinks they have any credibility at all?


Ha! 

You have clearly forgotten the utter frenzy of ridicule that greeted my thread "9/11 here's how they did it" which I think I posted in 2002. IIRC, only one poster didn't join in, and that was I think ernestolynch. At that time, hardly a soul on the planet doubted 9/11. You have always tried to draw attention to the fact at that time and ever since that no-one else disbelieves the official narrative. Unfortunately for you, now millions disbelieve it including highly decorated military men, politicians, and others the notable recent addition being the head of the Italian supreme court and anti-mafia expert Ferdinando Imposimato.

If there is still a culture in urban75 where anything but the official story is taboo, that says a great deal about the culture you have created I'm afraid, which as you know has included the banning of several posters


----------



## Blagsta (Feb 19, 2013)

DexterTCN said:


> You lot should all thank Jazz for the exercise you get in these threads, with your racing hearts and your shouting.
> 
> When Jazz posts I don't see any dishonesty or trolling.   It's just like a religious person, pretty much the same.
> 
> ...


Yeah, you can tell loads. Like their attitude to racism, things like that.


----------



## DexterTCN (Feb 19, 2013)

Blagsta said:


> Yeah, you can tell loads. Like their attitude to racism, things like that.


Who are you calling a racist here?


----------



## Firky (Feb 19, 2013)

DexterTCN said:


> You lot should all thank Jazz for the exercise you get in these threads, with your racing hearts and your shouting.


 

I like Jazzz threads (well most of them), I get to find out about the new conspiracy theories and fuckwittery without having to wade through the sewage of Prison Planet and websites like it. Instead it's all posted up - trimmed and cited (dubiously) on the thread for me to have a bit of a chuckle at. 

Some of the threads regarding medicine and pharmacology do have a potential to cause harm... if anyone was naive enough anyway.


----------



## editor (Feb 19, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> If there is still a culture in urban75 where anything but the official story is taboo, that says a great deal about the culture you have created I'm afraid, which as you know has included the banning of several posters


Hold on there. So now you're saying I have somehow single-handedly created a powerful 'culture' that manages to _control the thoughts_ of all the posters here?

You have been given total freedom to post up whatever insane links you like. To suggest that the only reason why people aren't supporting your mad assertions is because I've turned them all into sheeple is deeply insulting in the extreme.

Oh, and allow me point out the one devastating flaw in your 'argument' here. You're not banned, are you?


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Feb 19, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> If there is still a culture in urban75 where anything but the official story is taboo, that says a great deal about the culture you have created


The only thing that shows is a culture round these parts that wants _evidence_


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Feb 19, 2013)

DexterTCN said:


> You think he's lying?


 
I think he's absolutely a dishonest poster personally. He may or may not believe the main message of the shite he posts but his approach to debating it isn't honest at all. He's certainly not after 'the truth'.


----------



## Blagsta (Feb 19, 2013)

DexterTCN said:


> Who are you calling a racist here?


I don't think i called anyone a racist.

Before you get your knickers in a twist, I'm referring to jazz and the shit he swims in but refuses to acknowledge.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Feb 19, 2013)

DexterTCN said:


> Who are you calling a racist here?


Look at the stuff he posts. Follow the links. See who he either associates with or refuses to condemn.


----------



## DexterTCN (Feb 19, 2013)

firky said:


> ...Some of the threads regarding medicine and pharmacology do have a potential to cause harm... if anyone was naive enough anyway.


gateway threads?


----------



## youngian (Feb 19, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> If there is still a culture in urban75 where anything but the official story is taboo, that says a great deal about the culture you have created I'm afraid, which as you know has included the banning of several posters


 
Being in a minority doesn't make you wrong but there is a culture of providing convincing empirical evidence to back up claims that sound patently absurd.
You might want to try the British democracy forum they love all this shit and will link Bilderberg, the EU, Skeletor and the Zionists in on the conspiracy as well.


----------



## existentialist (Feb 19, 2013)

DexterTCN said:


> You think he's lying?


Yes, he's lying. He goes to too much trouble to dissemble for this to be a simple case of honestly-held belief.

He KNOWS that the stuff he's peddling is a crock of shit.


----------



## existentialist (Feb 19, 2013)

Dan U said:


> Sheeple
> Hive mind
> 
> Etc.
> ...


None of it is already happening!

And Jazzz does look a bit of a...well, a loon. I hesitate to call him a cunt, because I think that a large part of what underpins his deception is actually delusion. Not all of it, though.


----------



## equationgirl (Feb 19, 2013)

I see no need to descend into personal attacks and name-calling against Jazzz, including use of the c-word, personally.


----------



## Firky (Feb 19, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> I see no need to descend into personal attacks and name-calling against Jazzz, including use of the c-word, personally.


 cuckoo?


----------



## DexterTCN (Feb 19, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> I see no need to descend into personal attacks and name-calling against Jazzz, including use of the c-word, personally.


What about screaming in massive fonts?


----------



## existentialist (Feb 19, 2013)

DexterTCN said:


> What about screaming in massive fonts?


I think that's a bit different. Don't you?


----------



## DexterTCN (Feb 19, 2013)

existentialist said:


> I think that's a bit different. Don't you?


I wasn't asking myself.


----------



## existentialist (Feb 19, 2013)

DexterTCN said:


> I wasn't asking myself.


Perhaps you should...?


----------



## equationgirl (Feb 19, 2013)

DexterTCN said:


> What about screaming in massive fonts?


Jazz appeared to be having difficulty reading what I wrote in normal sized text so I used the extra big font size to make it easier for him. Also, short words.


----------



## JimW (Feb 20, 2013)

sihhi said:


> ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He's a-wim-away with the fairies.


----------



## Dan U (Feb 20, 2013)

Ok maybe cunt was a bit much.


----------



## killer b (Feb 20, 2013)

no, it isn't.


----------



## existentialist (Feb 20, 2013)

Calling him a cunt doesn't really refute his "arguments", though.


----------



## Dan U (Feb 20, 2013)

existentialist said:


> Calling him a cunt doesn't really refute his "arguments", though.



It was more how he is going to look when the hearing turns out to be how butchersapron suggested, rather than what he is.


----------



## killer b (Feb 20, 2013)

existentialist said:


> Calling him a cunt doesn't really refute his "arguments", though.


Nothing does. You might as well be shouting at a brick wall. At least there's a sense of catharsis in calling him a cunt.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 20, 2013)

is it me or is that pic and title slightly sinister? the lion looks evil


----------



## mauvais (Feb 20, 2013)

In the jungle, if it's a jungle, the lion is an owl.


----------



## mauvais (Feb 20, 2013)

Also it looks like Mel Gibson in Braveheart.


----------



## Voley (Feb 20, 2013)

I normally avoid Jazzz threads like the plague but I'm gonna stick with this one, I think. It feels like it's actually building up to something.


----------



## JimW (Feb 20, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> is it me or is that pic and title slightly sinister? the lion looks evil


Thought that was the point of the song - the lion (i.e. danger) sleeps tonight so the babby you're lullabying is safe in the village. David Icke in getting his sources wrong surprise!
ETA He's probably after some 'rise like lions, shake your chains' reference but the sleep bit just makes you think of the song.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 20, 2013)

mauvais said:


> Also it looks like Mel Gibson in Braveheart.


 
somewhat appropriate given the subject matter!


----------



## goldenecitrone (Feb 20, 2013)

DexterTCN said:


> What about screaming in massive fonts?


 
Typing, not screaming. Have you got sensitive eyes or something?


----------



## kenny g (Feb 20, 2013)

Well, I can remember when the good Jazzz had his doctor title extracted from him due to the persistent behaviour of some posters who should have known better.

Considering the ridicule that various sock puppets have subjected him to it is a real credit to his persistence and vitality that he has continued to share his research with the board.

If people can not see what is so clear to millions of truth seekers then that is their loss. It is like in the wizard of oz - pull back the veils, and have a look around. It is not all as you are told it is to be.


----------



## JimW (Feb 20, 2013)

The rigour of his methodology certainly speaks volumes about the credibility of his case.


----------



## goldenecitrone (Feb 20, 2013)

kenny g said:


> It is not all as you are told it is to be.


 
Reject all false prophets.


----------



## Blagsta (Feb 20, 2013)

kenny g said:


> Well, I can remember when the good Jazzz had his doctor title extracted from him due to the persistent behaviour of some posters who should have known better.
> 
> Considering the ridicule that various sock puppets have subjected him to it is a real credit to his persistence and vitality that he has continued to share his research with the board.
> 
> If people can not see what is so clear to millions of truth seekers then that is their loss. It is like in the wizard of oz - pull back the veils, and have a look around. It is not all as you are told it is to be.


Tell us about the four corners again, kenny.


----------



## existentialist (Feb 20, 2013)

kenny g said:


> Well, I can remember when the good Jazzz had his doctor title extracted from him due to the persistent behaviour of some posters who should have known better.
> 
> Considering the ridicule that various sock puppets have subjected him to it is a real credit to his persistence and vitality that he has continued to share his research with the board.
> 
> If people can not see what is so clear to millions of truth seekers then that is their loss. It is like in the wizard of oz - pull back the veils, and have a look around. It is not all as you are told it is to be.


I'm pretty sure that if the board orthodoxy was to believe anything we were told about 9/11, and this was a thread in which someone was trying to persuade us that it wasn't all a CIA put-up job, you'd be trolling around it laughing at us for being such sheeple.

Still, whatever floats your boat


----------



## killer b (Feb 20, 2013)

perfectly pitched deadpan there kenny. good work.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 20, 2013)

kenny g said:


> Well, I can remember when the good Jazzz had his doctor title extracted from him due to the persistent behaviour of some posters who should have known better.
> 
> Considering the ridicule that various sock puppets have subjected him to it is a real credit to his persistence and vitality that he has continued to share his research with the board.
> 
> If people can not see what is so clear to millions of truth seekers then that is their loss. It is like in the wizard of oz - pull back the veils, and have a look around. It is not all as you are told it is to be.


Delete 'persistence', insert 'monomania'

delete 'vitality', insert 'obsession'

delete 'research', insert 'delusions'

delete 'truth seekers', insert 'credulous fools'


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 20, 2013)

I've said it before and the more he posts the more I'm convinced that Jazzz is simply the best troll these boards have ever seen. Nobody could have their arguments so utterly devastated repeatedly and keep coming back for more if they were genuine in their beliefs. A child would see the flaws in the credibility of his sources and the whopping great holes in almost every theory he posits, yet he makes no effort to improve sources or arguments.

The structure of everything he posts is _exactly_ the same: post nonsense from a loon site; back up loon-site nonsense with loonspud "evidence" from "experts" that aren't, and claim their wibblings to be scientific proof; ignore everything posted by anyone else and refuse to answer questions; repeat ad infinitum.

The reactions he gets are off the scale. It's trolling genius and I'm well impressed by the effort he puts into it.

He's been pulling your collective plonkers for years!

Look at this thread. He gets pwned out of the park and what does he do ....... starts _another_ thread that's just as ridiculous. And he gets away with it because nobody susses it's a troll.

Brilliant!


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Feb 20, 2013)

Spymaster said:


> He's pulling your collective plonkers and has been for years


Except the scary thing is he isn't.


----------



## killer b (Feb 20, 2013)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Except the scary thing is he isn't.


not you too bees!


----------



## existentialist (Feb 20, 2013)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Except the scary thing is he isn't.


It's an interesting alternative perspective, though


----------



## cesare (Feb 20, 2013)

I've met Jazzz and I don't think he's setting out to troll. I think he genuinely believes this stuff.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 20, 2013)

cesare said:


> I've met Jazzz and I don't think he's setting out to troll. I think he genuinely believes this stuff.


 
tbf, look at what happened in C4's "Utopia"!


----------



## editor (Feb 20, 2013)

Don't forget: you are all under my power. I can tell you what to think. 
This must be true because Jazzz said so.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 20, 2013)

editor said:


> Don't forget: you are all under my power. I can tell you what to think.
> This must be true because Jazzz said so.


 
I agree with this.


----------



## cesare (Feb 20, 2013)

brogdale said:


> tbf, look at what happened in C4's "Utopia"!


I haven't seen it - what happened? (Dare I ask? )


----------



## brogdale (Feb 20, 2013)

cesare said:


> I haven't seen it - what happened? (Dare I ask? )


 
Bad shit, maaaaaaaaaaaaan.


----------



## editor (Feb 20, 2013)

brogdale said:


> I agree with this.


You have no choice.


----------



## cesare (Feb 20, 2013)

brogdale said:


> Bad shit, maaaaaaaaaaaaan.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 20, 2013)

editor said:


> You have no choice.


 
Obviously, I concur....but, seriously, that is not helping my recovery from last evening's libations.


----------



## Remus Harbank (Feb 20, 2013)

I for one like it when the official narrative of any historical event gets questioned. Makes the world a more interesting a place, don't you think? Especially when smurfs from both sides start bickering with semi-hysterical nervous delight.


----------



## kenny g (Feb 20, 2013)

brogdale said:


> Obviously, I concur....but, seriously, that is not helping my recovery from last evening's libations.


 
Hope the above helps.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 20, 2013)

Remus Harbank said:


> I for one like it when the official narrative of any historical event gets questioned. Makes the world a more interesting a place, don't you think? Especially when smurfs from both sides start bickering with semi-hysterical nervous delight.


Bit pompous that.


----------



## goldenecitrone (Feb 20, 2013)

Remus Harbank said:


> I for one like it when the official narrative of any historical event gets questioned. Makes the world a more interesting a place, don't you think? Especially when smurfs from both sides start bickering with semi-hysterical nervous delight.


 


Father Abraham?


----------



## fogbat (Feb 20, 2013)

Say what you like about Nick Griffin. He remains polite even when people call him a fascist cunt.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 20, 2013)

editor said:


> You have no choice.


 
is this one of those brain teasers that looks like an old woman if I squint a bit


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 20, 2013)

cesare said:


> I think he genuinely believes this stuff.


 
And therein lies the beauty of the troll.


----------



## elbows (Feb 20, 2013)

Your honour, I refuse to pay my TV license because Wogan once took the piss out of David Icke.


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 20, 2013)

he's nicked that 'off your knees' line from the WRP


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 20, 2013)

Spymaster said:


> And therein lies the beauty of the troll.


He's being trolled in his own brain by...well, you can guess who.


----------



## cesare (Feb 20, 2013)

Spymaster said:


> And therein lies the beauty of the troll.


Beauty is in the eye of the beholder


----------



## wemakeyousoundb (Feb 20, 2013)

you people and your obsession with fnord facts


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 20, 2013)

8115 said:


> My sides hurt.
> 
> Is nanothermic residue a real thing?


 
Wrong question, to be fair. The right question would be "what sort of idiot *wouldn't* expect to find metallic oxide residues in the dust at a site where a building composed of many different metal alloys had been destroyed?".
That's right. You'd expect to find residues consistent with any of the many variations of thermite (basic thermite is ferric oxide and aluminium, other formulations contain metal adjuvants to speed or slow the rate of reaction, to make it burn hotter or cooler, etc) in any dust from the scene of an aircraft impact into a building. There's a lot of ferrous and non-ferrous) metals (and therefore their oxides) in a multi-storey building, and a lot of aluminium alloys in your average jetliner.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 20, 2013)

goldenecitrone said:


> Does one really need to be a metallurgist to understand nanothermic residue? Surely you can just google some info on it and voila, you're an expert.


 
Or you can recall what you were taught about the thermite reaction at school, and realise that nano-thermite only differs in the size of the particulates that make up the thermite, and the reactivity consequent to the particle size. All the rest (the ddifferent "cocktails" of metals and metal oxides etc) have all been tried and tested in ordinary thermites.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 20, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Bit pompous that.


 
It's "Remus". All his posts are like that.


----------



## Wilf (Feb 20, 2013)

Wonder what will happen when the truthers finally convince us the powerful are running the world?   Will they take a holiday, get round to doing all those little jobs round the house?  Pay their TV licence?


----------



## goldenecitrone (Feb 20, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Or you can recall what you were taught about the thermite reaction at school, and realise that nano-thermite only differs in the size of the particulates that make up the thermite, and the reactivity consequent to the particle size. All the rest (the ddifferent "cocktails" of metals and metal oxides etc) have all been tried and tested in ordinary thermites.


 
You've got a good memory. I can barely remember how to operate a bunsen burner.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 20, 2013)

I think people are missing something even bigger here. There were traces of uranium in the twin-towers wreckage. Bugger nano-thermite it was a nuclear strike.


----------



## editor (Feb 20, 2013)

two sheds said:


> I think people are missing something even bigger here. There were traces of uranium in the twin-towers wreckage. Bugger nano-thermite it was a nuclear strike.


No. You're wrong. It was secret laser beam weapons. I read it here so it must be true:
http://www.serendipity.li/wot/bollyn1.htm


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 20, 2013)

goldenecitrone said:


> You've got a good memory. I can barely remember how to operate a bunsen burner.


I've got good long-term memory (except for my heavy-drinking years between about '84-'89, where a lot of stuff is "blurry"  ). My short-term memory is pretty shite, though. I'm currently being examined at a memory disorders clinic, it's got so bad.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 20, 2013)

Wilf said:


> Wonder what will happen when the truthers finally convince us the powerful are running the world?  Will they take a holiday, get round to doing all those little jobs round the house? Pay their TV licence?


 
You *know* they'll just find something new to be paranoid about.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 20, 2013)

editor said:


> No. You're wrong. It was secret laser beam weapons. I read it here so it must be true:
> http://www.serendipity.li/wot/bollyn1.htm


 
Laser-_schmaser_, everyone knows it was Tesla vibrations!


----------



## el-ahrairah (Feb 20, 2013)

kenny g said:


> Hope the above helps.


 
stop that.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 20, 2013)

editor said:


> No. You're wrong. It was secret laser beam weapons. I read it here so it must be true:
> http://www.serendipity.li/wot/bollyn1.htm


 
Pah I refute your stinking links and provide my own irrefutables.

http://norfidid.wordpress.com/part-1-of-4-were-nuclear-reactors-the-cause-of-the-wtc-destruction/



> Perhaps it was the boiling clouds—black, grey, white, and especially “nuclear brown”—surrounding the World Trade Center’s 110-story North and South Towers (WTC 1, 2) that made the world conclude the two hijacked airliners crashing into the buildings on September 11, 2001 had dropped nuclear bombs in elevator shafts. After all, the dreaded “stem-and-mushroom” cloud _was _rising from WTC 1 looking remarkably like a South Pacific atom-bomb test. How could they not, especially those familiar with media visuals of tests since 1946? Or those aware of a volcano’s powerful energy fields disgorging lava, pyroclastic flows, and lahars?
> 
> _The principal advocate for the theory that reactors were the primary causal agent that ultimately destroyed all seven WTC buildings is William Tahil, a British aerospace/technological consultant. He is the author of Ground Zero: The Nuclear Demolition of the World Trade Centre. He contends that 9/11 not only was the first nuclear attack against the United States, but “the world’s first nuclear controlled demolition.” [ii]_


 
Which just shows how cunning those people hijacking the airliners were that they could crash into the buildings and while doing so drop nuclear bombs down the elevator shafts. There's precision and split-second timing for you. No wonder that's what the world concluded.

Please also note the huge number of technical references given in this article, and that it is a British aerospace/technological consultant who has uncovered it all. Who's going to argue with that??


----------



## el-ahrairah (Feb 20, 2013)

goldenecitrone said:


> Reject all false prophets.


 
you are wise.  tell me what to do.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 20, 2013)




----------



## goldenecitrone (Feb 20, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> you are wise. tell me what to do.


 
Buy pork bellies.


----------



## editor (Feb 20, 2013)

two sheds said:


> Pah I refute your stinking links and provide my own irrefutables.
> 
> http://norfidid.wordpress.com/part-1-of-4-were-nuclear-reactors-the-cause-of-the-wtc-destruction/


That's way too outlandish.

Scientists who are experts in the holographic projection field have confirmed that the planes that hit the WTC were in fact missiles surrounded by holograms made to look like planes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_conspiracy_theories


----------



## goldenecitrone (Feb 20, 2013)

goldenecitrone said:


> Buy pork bellies.


 
Oh shit no, I meant sell pork bellies now before it's too late. Bollocks.


----------



## Nylock (Feb 22, 2013)

> Perhaps it was the boiling clouds—black, grey, white, and especially “nuclear brown”—surrounding the World Trade Center’s 110-story North and South Towers (WTC 1, 2) that made the world conclude the two hijacked airliners crashing into the buildings on September 11, 2001 had dropped nuclear bombs in elevator shafts. After all, the dreaded “stem-and-mushroom” cloud _was _rising from WTC 1 looking remarkably like a South Pacific atom-bomb test. How could they not, especially those familiar with media visuals of tests since 1946? Or those aware of a volcano’s powerful energy fields disgorging lava, pyroclastic flows, and lahars?
> 
> _The principal advocate for the theory that reactors were the primary causal agent that ultimately destroyed all seven WTC buildings is William Tahil, a British aerospace/technological consultant. He is the author of Ground Zero: The Nuclear Demolition of the World Trade Centre. He contends that 9/11 not only was the first nuclear attack against the United States, but “the world’s first nuclear controlled demolition.” [ii]_


OMFG


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 22, 2013)

then how come there was no radiation at the scene and no people getting radiation sickness or melted bodies or any signs of a nuclear attack whatsoever


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 22, 2013)

you know who else has nuclear weapons?

that's right, ISRAEL

it all starts to make sense now


----------



## two sheds (Feb 22, 2013)

Nylock said:


> OMFG


----------



## two sheds (Feb 22, 2013)

Why is it that they've not done any radioactivity tests there then answer me that? There have been NO photos of people going round with Geiger counters that tells you all you need to know.

Jazzz doesn't want to talk about this one.


----------



## Nylock (Feb 22, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> you know who else has nuclear weapons?
> 
> that's right, ISRAEL
> 
> it all starts to make sense now


Fuckin' JOOOZ!!


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 22, 2013)

two sheds said:


> Why is it that they've not done any radioactivity tests there then answer me that? There have been NO photos of people going round with Geiger counters that tells you all you need to know.
> 
> Jazzz doesn't want to talk about this one.


 
how can a hologram be radioactive anyway?


----------



## two sheds (Feb 22, 2013)

hologram's a false flag


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 22, 2013)

editor said:


> Scientists who are experts in the holographic projection field have confirmed that the planes that hit the WTC were in fact missiles surrounded by holograms made to look like planes.


 
Is Jazzz still going with the holograph thing?

If so, I now know 2 people who will swear that they saw *first hand* a _real_ plane fly into the south tower. One of those people describes the scream of the engines moments before the impact. She says the noise made them look in another direction - towards the now smoking N.tower, and after the second impact she saw "at least 3 people fall onto the ground".

Are you saying that she's lying Jazzz?

Would you like me to ask her to discuss it with you here?

Have you EVER spoken to a genuine eyewitness of 9/11?

Have you any conception of the_* real life*_ pain that you and your trolling friends are causing these people?


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 22, 2013)

yer but you know how good those j - er illuminati are at mind control.


----------



## Jazzz (Feb 22, 2013)

8115 said:


> My sides hurt.
> 
> Is nanothermic residue a real thing?


see the thread in WP


----------



## Jazzz (Feb 22, 2013)

Spymaster said:


> Have you EVER spoken to a genuine eyewitness of 9/11?


Yes I have.

You are possibly not aware that many of the victim's families are leading the 9/11 truth movement. Here is their movie:



I have never endorsed a 'holographic planes' theory for 9/11.


----------



## Delroy Booth (Feb 22, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> I have never endorsed a 'holographic planes' theory for 9/11.


 
Yeah, coz that'd just be crazy.


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 22, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> You are possibly not aware that many of the victim's families are leading the 9/11 truth movement.


 
Do you think that may be because charlatans like you have mercilessly preyed on their insecurities and vulnerabilities having lost loved ones, to batter them with your agenda whilst they're at their lowest ebb?

Shame on you.

Seriously.

Fucking shame on you.


----------



## cesare (Feb 22, 2013)

They've done that with 7/7 victims and families too.


----------



## cesare (Feb 22, 2013)

There's an entire forum devoted to this bile. I suppose this one will be incoming once the magistrate enforces the TV licence fine.

http://www.urban75.net/forums/forums/compendium-of-kerrrr-azy-conspiracies.6/


----------



## wemakeyousoundb (Feb 22, 2013)

cesare said:


> There's an entire forum devoted to this bile. I suppose this one will be incoming once the magistrate enforces the TV licence fine.
> 
> http://www.urban75.net/forums/forums/compendium-of-kerrrr-azy-conspiracies.6/


I'd forgotten about this, not going to help with my procrastination :/


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Feb 22, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> I have never endorsed a 'holographic planes' theory for 9/11.


You did say you believed that missiles were fired from the planes though.


----------



## goldenecitrone (Feb 22, 2013)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> You did say you believed that missiles were fired from the planes though.


 
Were they holographic missiles or real ones? It's hard to keep up with all these theories.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 22, 2013)

guess who? said:
			
		

> As I said, I don't subscribe to the hologram theory; I simply don't reject it outright.


 



			
				and again said:
			
		

> I've never stated that I believe the holographic planes theory, in fact I don't: when it came up I have simply argued that it is not completely dismissable.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Feb 22, 2013)

goldenecitrone said:


> Were they holographic missiles or real ones? It's hard to keep up with all these theories.


IIRC he said at the time that real missiles were fired from the planes just before impact and that the planes weren't actually the domestic flights filled with passengers. Those planes were diverted to parts unknown where the passengers were presumably killed. The planes you saw hit the towers were military duplicates fitted with the aforementioned missiles.

This is in addition to the thermite/controlled demolition stuff. They had to be sure in case one part failed.


Have I remembered this right Jazzz?


----------



## goldenecitrone (Feb 22, 2013)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> IIRC he said at the time that real missiles were fired from the planes just before impact and that the planes weren't actually the domestic flights filled with passengers. Those planes were diverted to parts unknown where the passengers were presumably killed. The planes you saw hit the towers were military duplicates fitted with the aforementioned missiles.
> 
> This is in addition to the thermite/controlled demolition stuff. They had to be sure in case one part failed.
> 
> [/USER]?


 
What about the Pentagon? That was just a missile, wasn't it? But with a holographic plane superimposed over it.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 22, 2013)

It _might_ have been _physical_ missiles somehow attached to a holograph:




			
				Jazz said:
			
		

> I am certainly not saying that I can positively identify whatever that is. Missile exhaust. Wire-guided bomb. Hell, some military whatzit attached to a holographic plane. But there's something going on there. A picture from another angle shows the flash clearly distinct from the nose of the plane as it enters the building.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 22, 2013)

how would you attach something to a hologram? thats complete bollocks


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 22, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> how would you attach something to a hologram? thats complete bollocks


 
Coherent light technology.


----------



## editor (Feb 22, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> It _might_ have been _physical_ missiles somehow attached to a holograph:


Curse the government and their military whatzits.


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 22, 2013)

incoherent shite technology more like


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 22, 2013)

editor said:


> Curse the government and their military whatzits.


Nevermind the secret whatthemthingscalledsagain


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 22, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Coherent light technology.


 
It's not even possible, a hologram isn't even a real thing.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 22, 2013)

A whatzit is something that can expand to cover all bases and all potential questions _i think._


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 22, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> It's not even possible, a hologram isn't even a real thing.


It's real, it just can't carry a secret whatzits. Or can it? What are they really up to?


----------



## cesare (Feb 22, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> A whatzit is something that can expand to cover all bases and all potential questions _i think._


 
All bases, all questions AND cover your fingers in orange powdery flavoured evidence.


----------



## editor (Feb 22, 2013)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> IIRC he said at the time that real missiles were fired from the planes just before impact and that the planes weren't actually the domestic flights filled with passengers. Those planes were diverted to parts unknown where the passengers were presumably killed. The planes you saw hit the towers were military duplicates fitted with the aforementioned missiles.
> 
> This is in addition to the thermite/controlled demolition stuff. They had to be sure in case one part failed.
> 
> ...


That's correct. The planes vanished mid flight without anyone noticing. What had actually happened was that the planes had landed at a super secret secret runway without anyone else noticing, and then all the passengers were methodically murdered before the holo-missile-planes took their place to complete their evil mission, coordinating their missile-firing crash with the setting off of the invisibly installed invisible explosives.

The government had the foresight to also hire in a job lot of Insta-Mike Yarwoods (TM) who were able to instantly impersonate the voices of the already murdered passengers and do it so perfectly well that their loved ones failed to notice the switch.

The Insta-Mike Yarwoods (TM) were so amazingly good that they even managed to fake the voices of passengers who weren't even booked on the planes.

That's about right isn't it, Jazzz?


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 22, 2013)

cesare said:


> All bases, all questions AND cover your fingers in orange powdery flavoured evidence.


Not as good as grade 15 doodah mind,


----------



## editor (Feb 22, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Nevermind the secret whatthemthingscalledsagain


Ssssccch! Don't mention them!


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 22, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> It's not even possible, a hologram isn't even a real thing.


----------



## editor (Feb 22, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


>


Hang on. Was it a plane that hit the WTC or was it this?


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Feb 22, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> how would you attach something to a hologram? thats complete bollocks


 
I think you might have finally found the chink in Jazz's argument.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 22, 2013)

I wonder, jazzz do you believe in the holographic moon theory?


----------



## editor (Feb 22, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> I wonder, jazzz do you believe in the holographic moon theory?


I think we need to consult windsor "Two Suns" on this.


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 22, 2013)

who was that person with the theory of the sun being a solid ball of molten iron? that was a good un


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 22, 2013)

editor said:


> I think we need to consult windsor "Two Suns" on this.


Icke does, he believes what Icke directs him to believe so i think there's a good chance of establishing his views on hologramism given his openness to questioning. Can you help jazzz?


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 22, 2013)

I'm sure somebody on here talked about the holographic moon theory before.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 22, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> I'm sure somebody on here talked about the holographic moon theory before.


They did, they dragged two other posters down with them. At least one secretly posing as a norm.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 22, 2013)

I can't stand this shit. It's just so stupid.


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 22, 2013)

try the hollow earth theory


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 22, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> try the hollow earth theory


That's where the nazis now live.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Feb 22, 2013)

I must have missed the holographic moon. I presume that has to be quite recent, otherwise the Nazis wouldn't have been able to set up their bases there. Unless it's a Nazi hologram generated to conceal themselves, of course.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 22, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I must have missed the holographic moon. I presume that has to be quite recent, otherwise the Nazis wouldn't have been able to set up their bases there. Unless it's a Nazi hologram generated to conceal themselves, of course.


There's a real one behind it, they project the holo one. It's got a huge nazi moonbase, they've mining stuff on the real one for some reason. Some of them (see the person now gone who thought the holograph itself bore a secret race).


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 22, 2013)

Like this? 

had an ex bf in my teens who was proper obsessed with that theory.


----------



## cesare (Feb 22, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> There's a real one behind it, they project the holo one. It's got a huge nazi moonbase, they've mining stuff on the real one for some reason. Some of them (see the person now gone who thought the holograph itself bore a secret race).


I'm now envisaging clangers in SS uniforms and the soup dragon with a fuhrer moustache


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 22, 2013)

theres the variant that says the saucer program was smokescreened by the v2 project and fled to antartica during the final days of the riech before fucking off to the dark side of the moon. seems legit


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 22, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> theres the variant that says the saucer program was smokescreened by the v2 project and fled to antartica during the final days of the riech before fucking off to the dark side of the moon. seems legit


 
yeah i know nazis with flying saucers, my ex bf taro who was properly weird was into that.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 22, 2013)

cesare said:


> I'm now envisaging clangers in SS uniforms and the soup dragon with a fuhrer moustache


There is a huge huge market for nazis on the moon stuff - or Antarctica , or under the himlayas, i kid you not - the hippy entrepreneur filth  from the 70s made millions out of it, then they started computer mags and made even more.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 22, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> There is a huge huge market for nazis on the moon stuff - or Antarctica , or under the himlayas, i kid you not - the hippy entrepreneur filth from the 70s made millions out of it, then they started computer mags and made even more.


 
it's weird how this stuff seems to go in with a jewish conspiracy as well! maybe the jews made the nazis flee to the moon


----------



## cesare (Feb 22, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> There is a huge huge market for nazis on the moon stuff - or Antarctica , or under the himlayas, i kid you not - the hippy entrepreneur filth from the 70s made millions out of it, then they started computer mags and made even more.


Aye, I'm not surprised. Icke and his ilk make a fucking fortune from peddling this rubbish to the gullible.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 22, 2013)

so if there are nazis on the moon, what then? are they meant to come back to the earth and save us all from the jews? or did the jews help them go there or are hiding them or what?


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 22, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> so if there are nazis on the moon, what then? are they meant to come back to the earth and save us all from the jews? or did the jews help them go there or are hiding them or what?


it's more traditional to find nazis on the run than nazis on the moon.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 22, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> it's more traditional to find nazis on the run than nazis on the moon.


 
thats what THEY want you to think


----------



## redsquirrel (Feb 23, 2013)

cesare said:


> I'm now envisaging clangers in SS uniforms and the soup dragon with a fuhrer moustache


Fuck off! That's a dreadful smear, the Clangers are good communists, a society based on mutual aid and cooperation (the chicken is probably a retrograde element I admit)


----------



## cesare (Feb 23, 2013)

redsquirrel said:


> Fuck off! That's a dreadful smear, the Clangers are good communists, a society based on mutual aid and cooperation (the chicken is probably a retrograde element I admit)



That's what "they" want you to think


----------



## stuff_it (Feb 23, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> There is a huge huge market for nazis on the moon stuff - or Antarctica , or under the himlayas, i kid you not - the hippy entrepreneur filth from the 70s made millions out of it, then they started computer mags and made even more.


Sounds an awfully familiar story for some reason - perhaps my third eye is vibrating.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Feb 23, 2013)

fogbat said:


> The last time a proper architect argued this one with Jazzz, the Captain got pwned so hard that he couldn't sit down for a week.


 
Has an architect ever come on here with a convincing explanation why Tower 7 fell without any contact from the planes?





Watching it, it falls in an identical manner to the other two buildings - without contact.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Feb 23, 2013)

> The National Institute of Standards and Technology, based near Washington DC, is expected to conclude in its long-awaited report this month that ordinary fires caused the building to collapse. That would make it the first and only steel skyscraper in the world to collapse because of fire.


 
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7485331.stm


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Feb 23, 2013)

The thing I don't understand: In those first days or weeks after 911, they showed the footage of the twin towers falling over and over. We saw it dozens if not hundreds of times.  But during that same time, they didn't show any footage of Tower 7.


----------



## stuff_it (Feb 23, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> The thing I don't understand: In those first days or weeks after 911, they showed the footage of the twin towers falling over and over. We saw it dozens if not hundreds of times. But during that same time, they didn't show any footage of Tower 7.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Feb 23, 2013)

stuff_it said:


>


 
Maybe you're too young to remember, but I watched the coverage nonstop. They didn't show the footage of tower 7, even while repeating the twin tower footage repeatedly, 24 hours a day.


----------



## redsquirrel (Feb 23, 2013)

cesare said:


> That's what "they" want you to think


 
A workers cooperative dealing with the anti-social element.


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 23, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Maybe you're too young to remember, but I watched the coverage nonstop. They didn't show the footage of tower 7, even while repeating the twin tower footage repeatedly, 24 hours a day.


 

it was 10 years ago, not the JFK assassination. We all watched live


----------



## Jon-of-arc (Feb 23, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> Unfortunately for you, now millions disbelieve it including highly decorated military men, politicians, and others the notable recent addition being the head of the Italian supreme court and anti-mafia expert Ferdinando Imposimato.



Cool name, but why would being head of the Italian judiciary and having watched every episode of the sopranos lend credibility to a persons opinions on 9/11?


----------



## goldenecitrone (Feb 23, 2013)

cesare said:


> I'm now envisaging clangers in SS uniforms and the soup dragon with a fuhrer moustache


 
The soup Nazi.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 23, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Maybe you're too young to remember, but I watched the coverage nonstop. They didn't show the footage of tower 7, even while repeating the twin tower footage repeatedly, 24 hours a day.


_I'm 58 you know, make way, make way_


----------



## binka (Feb 23, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Watching it, it falls in an identical manner to the other two buildings - without contact.


how many different ways are there for a building to fall down?


----------



## Ax^ (Feb 23, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Has an architect ever come on here with a convincing explanation why Tower 7 fell without any contact from the planes?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Moon Nazi's



*shakes fist at Moon*


----------



## cesare (Feb 23, 2013)

redsquirrel said:


> A workers cooperative dealing with the anti-social element.




The skyrocket! One of those skyrockets hit 7 WTC  The Clangers did it!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 23, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> It's not even possible, a hologram isn't even a real thing.


 
How do you explain Arnold Rimmer then, hmm?


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 23, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> How do you explain Arnold Rimmer then, hmm?


 
OK it's real but it's not made out of matter, it's projected light etc. How the fuck do you attach something, let alone a missile to that?


----------



## mrs quoad (Feb 23, 2013)

Had he paid his licence fee yet?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 23, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> OK it's real but it's not made out of matter, it's projected light etc. How the fuck do you attach something, let alone a missile to that?


 
So you missed the episodes (series 6 or 7 I think) where Arnie's light-bee made him out of *solid* light? 

As you say though, you can't attach something to a hologram, the most you could do (with an awful lot of sophisticated tracking equipment) is project the hologram over/around the object.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Feb 23, 2013)

binka said:


> how many different ways are there for a building to fall down?


 





























At the WTC, all three buildings collapsed totally, and neatly into their own footprints.


----------



## binka (Feb 23, 2013)

so whats that then? two ways? into their footprints and not into their footprints?

fwiw looking at that video of wtc7 collapsing it didn't look much like the way the twin towers collapsed. the twin towers collapsed from the top with the upper floors crashing into the floors below, looks to me like wtc collapsed from the bottom but then what do i know? i'm not an expert (OR AM I???)


----------



## Jon-of-arc (Feb 23, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> OK it's real but it's not made out of matter, it's projected light etc. How the fuck do you attach something, let alone a missile to that?



You paint nano thermite to the Steel foundations of the structure and detonate it at the same time as the hologram appears to hit the building.

Does this really need explaining?


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 23, 2013)

Froggie hasn't been paying attention.


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 23, 2013)

it occurs to me that most modern conspiracy theories are like crap airport thriller sci fi stuff, like tom clancy having had a spliff


----------



## equationgirl (Feb 24, 2013)

It's the eve before the court case, almost like Christmas


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 24, 2013)

working tomorrow from 11 to 1 sadly


----------



## equationgirl (Feb 24, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> working tomorrow from 11 to 1 sadly


I'm working till 5 at least so I'll have to catch on updates afterwards.


----------



## barney_pig (Feb 25, 2013)

Is there a court cam live feed? Surely we need to know.WHAT ARE THEY TRYING TO HIDE!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 25, 2013)

My money's on this case being sent to crown as the magistrates unable to impose a suitably harsh sentence. That or a conviction for contempt.


----------



## Bob_the_lost (Feb 25, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Has an architect ever come on here with a convincing explanation why Tower 7 fell without any contact from the planes?
> 
> Watching it, it falls in an identical manner to the other two buildings - without contact.


Yes.

Oddly it fell down after being hit by a massive chunk of one of the two main towers, which guess what, didn't fall in their own footprint.

Catch up Granddad. Or better yet, RTFT for once.


----------



## Voley (Feb 25, 2013)

I'd love this to be a genuine 'laughed out of court' moment but sadly it'll probably just be a fine for non-payment and the judge refusing to listen to all the nonsense.


----------



## Voley (Feb 25, 2013)

I'd still like a court cam mind.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 25, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Has an architect ever come on here with a convincing explanation why Tower 7 fell without any contact from the planes?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No. Architects don't do that sort of thing because they want people to believe their buildings won't collapse without some sort of calamity, instead of facing up to the reality that architects and builders can be crap.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Feb 25, 2013)

The official story has Tower 7 collapsing after seven hours of fire in the building, not because it was knocked down by debris.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/engineering/architecture/4278874


----------



## mrs quoad (Feb 25, 2013)

Is there any chance we'll hear the outcome of this case? I'm guessing conspiraloonexcitingnews.com won't report it without spinning it to fuck (or, perhaps, at all), and afaik mainstream media outlets haven't shown any interest...?


----------



## killer b (Feb 25, 2013)

i would have thought it should be fairly easy to see the truth of the matter via whatever the report on conspiraloonexcitingnews says tbh.


----------



## barney_pig (Feb 25, 2013)

Checked the websites of the local papers, nothing at all. IT IS A CONSPIRACY!


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 25, 2013)

Biggest Horsham news right now is that Raymond Cusick, designer of the Daleks, has died.

The loons reckon 130 have turned out to support him Rooke.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Feb 25, 2013)

130 eh?  I wonder if the captain is among them.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 25, 2013)

Gave 10-15 minutes of evidence before mag stops him and asks him wtf this has to do with the licence. I expect it will be over shortly - and the loons confirmed in their suspicions of a cover-up.


----------



## editor (Feb 25, 2013)




----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 25, 2013)

gutted about the death of dalek man


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 25, 2013)

The silly man argued for a bit, then got a guilty of not paying his licence fee. That's it. Was over in under half hour pretty much.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 25, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Gave 10-15 minutes of evidence before mag stops him and asks him wtf this has to do with the licence. I expect it will be over shortly - and the loons confirmed in their suspicions of a cover-up.


fucking conspiraloon fail. again.


----------



## existentialist (Feb 25, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> The silly man argued for a bit, then got a guilty of not paying his licence fee. That's it. Was over in under half hour pretty much.


The crazy thing is that if, instead of grandstanding some loony ideas, he'd just played dumb, he probably wouldn't have got a conviction - from what I can tell, they rely overwhelmingly on confessions, which he seemed positively eager to provide.

I guess we can't fault him for his commitment to the cause...


----------



## existentialist (Feb 25, 2013)

I do think that we owe Jazzz a vote of thanks for, no matter how inadvertently, bringing to our attention this example of conspiraloon fail which we would almost certainly have missed if it had not been for his sterling efforts.

Jazzz, we salute you!


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 25, 2013)

Quite a satisfying fail, given that so many of us predicted what would happen to perfection.

Oh Jazzz


----------



## editor (Feb 25, 2013)

I knew the TV Licensing people would be in on it too.

I bet those TV licence vans are stuffed full of nano-thermite too.


----------



## existentialist (Feb 25, 2013)

editor said:


> I knew the TV Licensing people would be in on it too.


I am intrigued...do say more 

ETA: aha, I see you just did.


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 25, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> The silly man argued for a bit, then got a guilty of not paying his licence fee. That's it. Was over in under half hour pretty much.


 
Where are you getting the information from? Can't find any reporting.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Feb 25, 2013)

existentialist said:


> The crazy thing is that if, instead of grandstanding some loony ideas, he'd just played dumb, he probably wouldn't have got a conviction - from what I can tell, they rely overwhelmingly on confessions, which he seemed positively eager to provide.
> 
> I guess we can't fault him for his commitment to the cause...


 
A true martyr (martyrdom being much devalued nowadays, amounting to a small fine for TV Licence evasion).


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 25, 2013)

existentialist said:


> The crazy thing is that if, instead of grandstanding some loony ideas, he'd just played dumb, he probably wouldn't have got a conviction - from what I can tell, they rely overwhelmingly on confessions, which he seemed positively eager to provide.
> 
> I guess we can't fault him for his commitment to the cause...


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 25, 2013)

Spymaster said:


> Where are you getting the information from? Can't find any reporting.


The loons own reporting on twitter:
#BBC911
@Truthloader
#TonyRooke


----------



## binka (Feb 25, 2013)

considering the extent of this and other conspiracies and the effect it would have if the truth were to come out why did they ever expect to be given a fair hearing by tptb?


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 25, 2013)

binka said:


> considering the extent of this and other conspiracies and the effect it would have if the truth were to come out why did they ever expect to be given a fair hearing by tptb?


Indeed, why do they want the guilty to re-open the investigation into their guilt over 911 as well.


----------



## Lemon Eddy (Feb 25, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> The loons own reporting on twitter:
> #BBC911
> @Truthloader
> #TonyRooke


 
LIES!  The truth is that Butchers is one of _them_, and as such has access to live covert surveillance footage of everyone.  He's also got a shed full of nano-thermite and holograms.  I've seen it, I tell ya.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Feb 25, 2013)

binka said:


> considering the extent of this and other conspiracies and the effect it would have if the truth were to come out why did they ever expect to be given a fair hearing by tptb?


 
They thought Horsham magistrates court would be different. But THEY get to everyone in the end.


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 25, 2013)

Since threads are supposed to carry meaningful titles shouldn't this one now be changed to *"Bloke Fined £100 For TV License Evasion"* ?


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 25, 2013)

Hang on late drama! Seems like the mag just spent 30 minutes telling them exactly why this stuff is irrelevant but is now apparently "going away to consider" - given what s/he just told them then what's to consider?


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 25, 2013)

Spymaster said:


> Since threads are supposed to carry meaningful titles shouldn't this one now be changed to *"CONSPIRALOON Bloke Fined £100 For TV License Evasion"* ?


corrected for you


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 25, 2013)

probably needs to mist her scales before passing judgement


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 25, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> probably needs to mist her scales before passing judgement


toning mist?


----------



## editor (Feb 25, 2013)

I like the idea of a 'Truthloader,' like he takes in fresh deliveries of TRUTH every week.


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 25, 2013)

editor said:


> I like the idea of a 'Truthloader,' like he takes in fresh deliveries of TRUTH every week.


 

or is a shit Toploader covers band


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 25, 2013)

i'm waiting on jazzz explaining why this is all a load of bollocks and how the truth will yet out.

i suppose his silence is due to him waiting on the pleasure of the secret chiefs.


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 25, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Hang on late drama! Seems like the mag just spent 30 minutes telling them exactly why this stuff is irrelevant but is now apparently "going away to consider" - given what s/he just told them then what's to consider?


 
Quite possibly being misreported if you're picking this up from loon-tweets.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 25, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> probably needs to mist her scales before passing judgement


Going to get the death cap - special circumstances.


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 25, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> i'm waiting on jazzz explaining why this is all a load of bollocks and how the truth will yet out.
> 
> i suppose his silence is due to him waiting on the pleasure of the secret chiefs.


 
I'd be surprised if he's seen on this thread again.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 25, 2013)

Spymaster said:


> Quite possibly being misreported if you're picking this up from loon-tweets.


I think that's exactly it - the usual 3 (mags and the legal bod?) go off to conflab and have a fag then come back. All normal. Which they are taking as on overturning of strict liability.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Feb 25, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> I think that's exactly it - the usual 3 (mags and the legal bod?) go off to conflab and have a fag then come back. All normal. Which they are taking as on overturning of strict liability.


 
Or on finding them in contempt of court?


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 25, 2013)

Now formally guilty and evidence told to gtf.

Not sure why the mag needed to string it out that long with his/her explanation of why it was all irrelevant - the loons will now report it as nearly 90 minutes of evidence was heard...."


----------



## existentialist (Feb 25, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Now formally guilty and evidence told to gtf.


*gasp*



butchersapron said:


> Not sure why the mag needed to string it out that long with his/her explanation of why it was all irrelevant - the loons will now report it as nearly 90 minutes of evidence was heard...."


Probably (misguidedly or otherwise) wanting to be seen to be painstakingly even-handed over the whole business.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 25, 2013)

Given a conditional discharge. Sympathy discharge.


----------



## Hocus Eye. (Feb 25, 2013)

Seven minutes ago #truthloader said that the defendant had been given a conditional discharge. He also promised a live YouTube broadcast outside the court to happen soon.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 25, 2013)

Hocus Eye. said:


> Seven minutes ago #truthloader said that the defendant had been given a conditional discharge. He also promised a live YouTube broadcast outside the court to happen soon.


Yes, guilty and given a sympathy discharge.


----------



## existentialist (Feb 25, 2013)

Hocus Eye. said:


> Seven minutes ago #truthloader said that the defendant had been given a conditional discharge. He also promised a live YouTube broadcast outside the court to happen soon.


Bloody hell, that really _is_ going out of his way to be lenient.

If Rooke has any sense, he'll suck it up, and keep his head down. My guess is that he'll stand outside court and declare it a victory for conspiraloonery worldwide, and vow to publicly watch TV in his front garden until they come for him again.


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 25, 2013)

sympathy because he's obviously a loon?


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 25, 2013)

existentialist said:


> Bloody hell, that really _is_ going out of his way to be lenient.
> 
> If Rooke has any sense, he'll suck it up, and keep his head down. My guess is that he'll stand outside court and declare it a victory for conspiraloonery worldwide, and vow to publicly watch TV in his front garden until they come for him again.


He won't - he'll break the terms of the CD in order to make himself a martyr.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 25, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> sympathy because he's obviously a loon?


 
That's what i'm thinking.


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 25, 2013)

Hocus Eye. said:


> He also promised a live YouTube broadcast outside the court to happen soon.


 
How do I watch that?


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 25, 2013)

Just in case anyone is confused - a conditional discharge is a guilty.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 25, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> sympathy because he's obviously a loon?


 
no, sympathy because the judge knows he's right but also knows he'd be killed if he admitted the bbc's involvement in 9/11.


----------



## fogbat (Feb 25, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> or is a shit Toploader covers band


So Toploader?


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 25, 2013)

two sheds said:


> no, sympathy because the judge knows he's right but also knows he'd be killed if he admitted the bbc's involvement in 9/11.


Yet another one gagged by strict liability. Bah!


----------



## Hocus Eye. (Feb 25, 2013)

All that I could get was this photograph from yfrog:


----------



## existentialist (Feb 25, 2013)

Hocus Eye. said:


> All that I could get was this photograph from yfrog:


He doesn't look like a man victorious, does he?

I'd be tempted to caption that "rueful"


----------



## Hocus Eye. (Feb 25, 2013)

And now this one:  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




I have no idea who that is.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 25, 2013)

Is the conditional discharge conditional on him paying the fine, or just paying the TV licence?


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 25, 2013)

existentialist said:


> He doesn't look like a man victorious, does he?
> 
> I'd be tempted to caption that "rueful"


i'd be tempted to caption that 'half-cut'


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 25, 2013)

existentialist said:


> He doesn't look like a man victorious, does he?


 
Neither would you if you walked out of court to see Harry Hill taking the piss.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Feb 25, 2013)

The guy with the bald head is clearly FBI and about to waste Mr No TV Licence. He's not rueful, just resigned to taking a bullet for the cause of troof.


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 25, 2013)

which one is he then, the bloke with the 'have you seen this man' tash or the slaphead


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 25, 2013)

The bald bloke is Tony Farrell, ex cop(ish). The first one doesn't look like Rooke either - not judging by the youtube channel i linked to a few pages back anyway.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 25, 2013)

what i want to know is, where's jazzz and his defence of the indefensible?

and another thing, how come he hasn't done this about that other great conspiracy, the burning of the reichstag?


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 25, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Yes, guilty and given a sympathy discharge.


as close to a sympathy fuck as he'll come this year


----------



## Hocus Eye. (Feb 25, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> The bald bloke is Tony Farrell, ex cop(ish). The first one doesn't look like Rooke either - not judging by the youtube channel i linked to a few pages back anyway.


Oh yes "former intelligence officer of South Yorks police who came to give evidence" according to Truthloader's tweet stream. I have heard of him, another conspiraloon person apparently.


----------



## mrs quoad (Feb 25, 2013)

Wilf said:


> You may sneer


Why, thank you!


----------



## JimW (Feb 25, 2013)

So his arguments - wait for it, wait for it - got a _decent reception_ in the end. Ho, har, erk,


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 25, 2013)

JimW said:


> So his arguments - wait for it, wait for it - got a _decent reception_ in the end. Ho, har, erk,


I think two sheds nailed what it will be above - and padded out with look, the mag spent ages pointing out why s/he was forced to find him guilty.


----------



## JimW (Feb 25, 2013)

Just wanted to make a shit telly pun really. Though not giving him the opportunity of a quick martyrdom could be spun as part of the cover-up, I suppose.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 25, 2013)

I actually missed the pun


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 25, 2013)

130? I think not. Even given there may be people behind the camera - why someone looking to show a good turnout would do that though? I count 25-30ish


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 25, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> 130? I think not. Even given there may be people behind the camera - why someone looking to show a good turnout would do that though? I count 25-30ish


it's a proper loons' convention


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 25, 2013)

What a fucking ugly looking court. Why've they got electricity boxes on the roof?


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 25, 2013)

Spymaster said:


> What a fucking ugly looking court. Why've they got electricity boxes on the roof?


they're not electricity boxes, they're surveillance gear monitoring the loons outside. and quite possibly some form of mind control technology.

more to the point, what's happened to the five storeys which used to be there?


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 25, 2013)

Spymaster said:


> What a fucking ugly looking court. Why've they got electricity boxes on the roof?


 
most magistrates outside of big towns and cities are fuck ugly and plain


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 25, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> most magistrates are fuck ugly and plain


corrected for you


----------



## two sheds (Feb 25, 2013)

You'd imagine there's also a high probability that the magistrate was actually a tory, meaning that he might not agree with the 9/11 stuff but he'll certainly believe the BBC is a hotbed of communist activity that needs taking down a peg or two.

If this was somebody refusing to pay an electricity company because they were burning coal and fucking up the atmosphere the magistrate would doubtless feel it would be right to make an example of them to double the fine plus a couple of months in pokey.

Presumably the conditional discharge means he has to pay the fine by the way, anybody know?


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 25, 2013)

two sheds said:


> Presumably the conditional discharge means he has to pay the fine by the way, anybody know?


 
I wouldn't have thought so. Normally a conditional discharge means you walk away unpunished.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 25, 2013)

He must have to pay at least the tv licence though, otherwise he'd be claiming it as a victory? Perhaps it's at least conditional on paying the tv licence in which case we might get round 2  .


----------



## cesare (Feb 25, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Now formally guilty and evidence told to gtf.
> 
> Not sure why the mag needed to string it out that long with his/her explanation of why it was all irrelevant - the loons will now report it as nearly 90 minutes of evidence was heard...."


In anticipation of him appealing, I guess.


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 25, 2013)

> He must have to pay at least the tv licence though, otherwise he'd be claiming it as a victory? Perhaps it's at least conditional on paying the tv licence in which case we might get round 2  .


 
Would make sense. Without seeing exactly what's been said it's impossible to know.

I'm not sure how it works. If the bloke didn't have a licence why was he discharged?


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Feb 25, 2013)

two sheds said:


> He must have to pay at least the tv licence though, otherwise he'd be claiming it as a victory? Perhaps it's at least conditional on paying the tv licence in which case we might get round 2  .


 
Wouldn't they just send the bailiffs round?


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 25, 2013)

Spymaster said:


> Would make sense. Without seeing exactly what's been said it's impossible to know.
> 
> I'm not sure how it works. If the bloke didn't have a licence why was he discharged?


A CD is a guilty. As suggested, it's likely the condition was that he pay the bloody thing.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 25, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> The silly man argued for a bit, then got a guilty of not paying his licence fee. That's it. Was over in under half hour pretty much.


 
Damn those Jew Illuminati magistrates to Hell!!!


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 25, 2013)

Gotcha.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 25, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> or is a shit Toploader covers band


 
TBF, a Toploader covers band would by definition be shit, given that Toploader were a steaming pile of kack.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 25, 2013)

Latest : Sussex Police confirm 5 dancing Israelis arrested.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 25, 2013)

Galloway:_ I don't dance with Israelis._


----------



## editor (Feb 25, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> 130? I think not. Even given there may be people behind the camera - why someone looking to show a good turnout would do that though? I count 25-30ish


Imagine having a party and that lot showed up. Be a bit of a fun conversation killer, I imagine.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Feb 25, 2013)

editor said:


> Imagine having a party and that lot showed up. Be a bit of a fun conversation killer, I imagine.


 
Apparently they'd get the dance floor going though.


----------



## Lemon Eddy (Feb 25, 2013)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> Apparently they'd get the dance floor going though.


 

I bet that jews look good on the dance floor
I don't know if you're looking for romance or don't know what you're looking for
Well I bet that jews look good on the dance floor
Dancing to electro-pop like a robot from 1984


----------



## barney_pig (Feb 25, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> 130? I think not. Even given there may be people behind the camera - why someone looking to show a good turnout would do that though? I count 25-30ish


Any urbanites there for the Lolz?


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 25, 2013)

Not a V mask among them. Standards are slipping


----------



## el-ahrairah (Feb 25, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> it's a proper loons' convention


 
i recognise one of them from Occupy Finsbury Square.  He had lots of leaflets about Fractional Reserve Banking and Rothschild Zionism, which kept n filling up the bin nicely.


----------



## editor (Feb 25, 2013)

I'm hoping the one girl in the photo is a reporter so I can stick to my stereotypes.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 25, 2013)

editor said:


> I'm hoping the one girl in the photo is a reporter so I can stick to my stereotypes.


She looks sufficiently bored to be a journalist


----------



## prunus (Feb 25, 2013)

Need more conspiralunacy!

Now addicted to Jazzz threads.


----------



## binka (Feb 25, 2013)

prunus said:


> Need more conspiralunacy!
> 
> Now addicted to Jazzz threads.


they are good fun i just wish he'd finish one before starting the next


----------



## Jazzz (Feb 25, 2013)

> Published on *Monday 25 February 2013 15:05*
> 
> Charged with not paying his TV licence, Tony Rooke had claimed at Horsham Magistrates’ Court that the BBC’s treatment of the 9/11 attacks made it complicit in acts of terrorism.
> 
> ...


West Sussex County Times (plus video clip)


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 25, 2013)




----------



## killer b (Feb 25, 2013)

'called for' eh?


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 25, 2013)

"in private". Uh-huh. He secretly agreed with me. They all do tony, they all do.


----------



## existentialist (Feb 25, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> "in private". Uh-huh. He secretly agreed with me. They all do tony, they all do.


And what an utterly boring, characterless piece of work he was. I was rather hoping, with all the conspiraloonery, that he'd at least be slightly colourful...but no, not a bit of it.


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 25, 2013)

by my calculations if he had paid the lisense he'd be 80 quid up on the 200 quid costs


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 25, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> by my calculations if he had paid the lisense he'd be 80 quid up on the 200 quid costs


But down on the truth vibrations.


----------



## existentialist (Feb 25, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> by my calculations if he had paid the lisense he'd be 80 quid up on the 200 quid costs


Ah, but it's about the *principle*. What's £80 in the great fight against the Global Jew Hegemony?


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 25, 2013)

Who did you think has more money, Des Lynam or David Icke?


----------



## existentialist (Feb 25, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Who did you think has more money, Des Lynam or David Icke?


Well, Icke does sell a lot of books...


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 25, 2013)

des doesn't even have a steady commentating gig these days does he


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 25, 2013)

Never was a commentator, just a presenter. He doesn't need to do all this stuff and he's prob as rich as Icke.


----------



## binka (Feb 25, 2013)

des probably has a better accountant


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 25, 2013)

Better hair for sure.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 25, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> by my calculations if he had paid the lisense he'd be 80 quid up on the 200 quid costs


 
200 quid up - he still has to pay the licence.


----------



## editor (Feb 25, 2013)

I wonder if that loom has been on here.


----------



## existentialist (Feb 25, 2013)

editor said:


> I wonder if that loom has been on here.


He doesn't look much like the sort of person who could find his arse with both hands and a map, so it's quite possible that he'd have similar trouble finding Urban.


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 25, 2013)

fruit of the loon


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Feb 25, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> West Sussex County Times (plus video clip)


Any chance of you giving an opinion/comment on the result, rather than your usual cut and paste bollocks?


----------



## editor (Feb 25, 2013)

I wonder if urban has a bigger readership than the West Sussex County Times.


----------



## equationgirl (Feb 25, 2013)

editor said:


> I wonder if urban has a bigger readership than the West Sussex County Times.


Bound to have.

Jazzz - there's no such thing as a 'no score draw' in the legal world. Not even in Scotland where there is 'that bastard verdict' Not Proven. Just so you're clear this was not a victory of any kind.


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 25, 2013)

I doubt even Jazzz would think that.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Feb 25, 2013)

Spymaster said:


> I doubt even Jazzz would think that.





You _have_ read his posts over the years, yeah?


----------



## Lemon Eddy (Feb 25, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> He asked to submit evidence which he said would show that the BBC had consistently failed to report the true story.
> 
> District Judge Stephen Nicholls said that, even if he accepted and agreed with the evidence, that would not give him grounds to rule that Rooke was not guilty.


 


butchersapron said:


> The Magistrate won't even deal with any of that stuff for one second. S/he'll simply point out this case is being judged on strict liability grounds (i.e it doesn't matter why he didn't pay, all that counts is he did did or not) and all this other guff is irrelevant.


 
How could butchers have predicted it quite so accurately eh?  Simple - it's just further proof that he's one of *them.*


----------



## equationgirl (Feb 25, 2013)

Lemon Eddy said:


> How could butchers have predicted it quite so accurately eh? Simple - it's just further proof that he's one of *them.*


----------



## elbows (Feb 25, 2013)




----------



## Jazzz (Feb 26, 2013)

*Moral Victory for Protestor who says BBC 9/11 Coverage was False
*Campaigner and film maker Tony Rooke claimed a moral victory today after a UK court gave him a conditional discharge even though he has refused to pay his BBC license fee. Over 100 supporters from as far away as Denmark and Norway cheered in front of the court house as independent media people conducted interviews and photographed the crowd. Court officials had booked their largest room for the case but were at a loss to find that well over 50 people could not be fitted in. 

Tony said: "I am taken a back and hugely grateful for all the support." He is asking for at least one person to take up the campaign by refusing to pay or taking other legal action (see below).

Rooke argued that the BBC's coverage of the 9/11 terror attacks in New York has been so distorted that it amounts to giving aid and comfort to the unidentified terrorists who demolished three World Trade Centre buildings in 2001. Two hijacked planes were flown into the famous Twin Towers and a third tower WTC7 collapsed later in the day. The attacks were used as the pretext for a decade of wars and the introduction of police state measures across the NATO countries. Vast personal fortunes were made by White House and CIA officials who failed to thwart 9/11. 

The official 9/11 story was promulgated by the US media within minutes of the first collision, based on anonymous sources in the Bush White House. Despite a mass of new evidence coming to light in the intervening years the story has never changed and holds that the destruction was entirely caused by a band of Muslim fanatics, they succeeded without any help, and were organised by the notorious Osama Bin Laden who it is admitted was once a CIA agent. A man described as Osama Bin Laden was captured, assassinated and deposited in the ocean by US forces in Pakistan two years ago.

Sceptics say that the collapse of WTC7 must have been the result of something more than limited fires and damage from the Twin Towers, hit by the two hijacked planes. Argument has revolved around the speed of the collapse. In the BBC Conspiracy Files series, which endorsed every aspect of the official 9/11 story, it was stated that the building did _not _collapse at free fall speed, but later US officials were forced by video evidence to admit that it did just that.

A large group of over 1500 architects and engineers known as AE911 say that free fall collapse implies that the  building had all its supports removed at the same instant which can only happen with a controlled demolition. Tony Rooke's legal argument is that in failing to correct their free fall misinformation and many other misstatements of fact, the BBC are a party to covering up the terrorists who organised the controlled demolition of WTC7.

The BBC has also failed to publicise the finding of Richard Clarke, head of counter terrorism at the White House in 2001. Two years ago Clarke made a bombshell announcement: in the weeks before 9/11 a secret "decision" must have been taken at the CIA to over rule FBI officers who wanted to arrest some of  the people who according to the official story went on to commit the attacks. Clarke says that if this decision had not been made the 9/11 attacks would not have happened. Before Clarke went public the BBC programme makers were adamant this was a "conspiracy theory". Afterwards they failed to give it any prominence and failed to reinterview any of the officials who, if Clarke is right, must have lied to them.

Back in Horsham Magistrates Court campaigners have been planning future tactics. Tony Rook's victory, helped by lawyer Mahtab Aziz, implies that the BBC has a case to answer, but expert witnesses including Danish associate professor Niels Harrit were not called due to legal technicalities. However the District Judge would have read their statements before the hearing and taken them into account. 

Conditional discharges are often used in political cases to indicate that the accused, though technically guilty, occupies the moral high ground. In addition the case provides a yardstick that can be raised by future campaigners. On the other hand because he has not been convicted, Tony cannot appeal and force the courts to scrutinise the highly questionable activities of the BBC as a conduit for CIA propaganda.

It's now essential for Tony's campaign that at least one person should take up the baton, refuse to pay their licence fee and appeal any conviction. Anyone interested should contact him at 
rookietone@hotmail.com 

Story by Ian Henshall, Reinvestigate 911


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 26, 2013)

No story, same spam as OP. Any thoughts?

Sounds like he is capitulating on exposing the biggest lie ever. There could be a line of you fool. Do you pay your licence fee jazzz? Let's get vexatious.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 26, 2013)

Do you pay your licence fee Jazzz?


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 26, 2013)

> Conditional discharges are often used in political cases to indicate that the accused, though technically guilty, occupies the moral high ground. In addition the case provides a yardstick that can be raised by future campaigners. On the other hand because he has not been convicted, Tony cannot appeal and force the courts to scrutinise the highly questionable activities of the BBC as a conduit for CIA propaganda.


 
He has been convicted. Do you even read what you're given?


----------



## binka (Feb 26, 2013)

moral victories are the best kind of victories imo


----------



## editor (Feb 26, 2013)

I think Jazzz needs the law explained to him:


> *Absolute and conditional discharge*
> 
> Where a court by or before *which a person is convicted of an offence* (not being an offence the sentence for which is fixed by law and certain other very serious offences) is of the opinion, having regard to the circumstances, including the nature of the offence and the offender’s character, that punishment is inexpedient, it may make an order either discharging the person absolutely or discharging him subject to the condition that he commits no offence during such period, not exceeding three years, as may be specified in the order (Powers of Criminal Courts (Sentencing) Act 2000, s.12).
> http://www.cans.org.uk/notes/admini...ffenders/2-absolute-and-conditional-discharge





> *What is an absolute or conditional discharge?*
> 
> ...A conditional discharge is where an offender is not punished at the time of sentence, but receives a period of grace, often for 12 months. If the offender were to be convicted of another offence during the period of discharge, they face being sentenced for that offence, as well as the original offence.http://ukcrime.wordpress.com/tag/conditional-discharge/


----------



## Nylock (Feb 26, 2013)

binka said:


> moral victories are the best kind of victories imo


 
No way, Pyrrhic victories rule!


----------



## editor (Feb 26, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> It's now essential for Tony's campaign that at least one person should take up the baton, refuse to pay their licence fee and appeal any conviction.


Jazzz: here's your big chance to sock it to The Man and hit him hard with your Truth Baton!


----------



## cesare (Feb 26, 2013)

> Discharges are given for the least serious offences such as very minor thefts. The court may give an absolute discharge, which means it decides not to impose a punishment because the experience of going to court has been punishment enough. However, the offender still gets a criminal record.
> 
> A conditional discharge can also be given – this means that if the offender commits another crime, they can be sentenced for the first offence and the new one.


 
http://sentencingcouncil.judiciary.gov.uk/sentencing/discharges.htm




> Part II
> ABSOLUTE AND CONDITIONAL DISCHARGE
> 12 Absolute and conditional discharge.
> (1)Where a court by or before which a person is *convicted of an offence* (not being an offence the sentence for which is fixed by law or falls to be imposed under section 109(2), 110(2) or 111(2) below) is of the opinion, having regard to the circumstances including the nature of the offence and the character of the offender, that it is inexpedient to inflict punishment, the court may make an order either—
> ...


 
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2000/6/part/II



​ 


> Conditional Discharge
> _1. ‘The 2000 Act’ is a reference to the Powers of Criminal Courts (Sentencing) Act 2000. ‘The 2003 Act’ is a reference to the Criminal Justice Act 2003._
> _2. Conditional discharges are now governed by section 12 of the 2000 Act._
> _3. The following form of words seeks to comply with section 174 of the 2003 Act, which imposes duties, amongst others, to give reasons for and explain the effect of any sentence passed._
> ...


----------



## cesare (Feb 26, 2013)




----------



## elbows (Feb 26, 2013)

If you are immune to reality, every defeat can still be a *morale* victory I suppose.


----------



## Gingerman (Feb 26, 2013)




----------



## Ax^ (Feb 26, 2013)

how the Clangers managed 9/11


----------



## Lemon Eddy (Feb 26, 2013)

binka said:


> moral victories are the best kind of victories imo


 
I'm a big fan of immoral gains, myself.


----------



## Lemon Eddy (Feb 26, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> Campaigner and film maker Tony Rooke claimed a moral victory today


 

You know, your tireless campaigning that 911 is a giant lie might be more convincing if you didn't quote blatant untruths.


----------



## existentialist (Feb 26, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> *Moral Victory for Protestor who says BBC 9/11 Coverage was False*


*splutter* *snigger*

Soooo predictable, I'm sorry to say. Snatching the dry crumbs and chickenbones from what was originally billed as a feast, Jazzz?

Doesn't that jar even very slightly?


----------



## fractionMan (Feb 26, 2013)

Jesus wept


----------



## Roadkill (Feb 26, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> Back in Horsham Magistrates Court campaigners have been planning future tactics. Tony Rook's victory, helped by lawyer Mahtab Aziz, implies that the BBC has a case to answer, but expert witnesses including Danish associate professor Niels Harrit were not called due to legal technicalities. However the District Judge would have read their statements before the hearing and taken them into account.


 
Five observations:

1. The loons can't even spell their own man's name right.
2. It wasn't in any sense a victory: he was hauled up for not paying his TV licence and convicted. The fact the court decided to give him a conditional discharge just means that the District Judge let him off lightly for reasons best known to himself.
3. The above being so, it doesn't imply the BBC has any case to answer.
4. Not calling Neils Harrit was not a 'legal technicality.' The charge was not paying the TV licence: everything else is irrelevant. If everyone in court on a minor charge was allowed to pontificate about whatever they felt like, the system would grind to a halt.
5. Why 'would' the District Judge have read Harrit and the others' statements, except perhaps out of curiosity?

And that's just from one paragraph...


----------



## prunus (Feb 26, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> *...*
> Tony Rook's victory, helped by lawyer Mahtab Aziz, implies that the BBC has a case to answer,
> ...


 
Does it bollocks.  And it's not a victory.   Which makes for a nice little bit of logic.

A implies B
A doesn't exist
not-A however doesn't imply not-B (from the initial statement), it simply has nothing to say about B


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 26, 2013)

He lost in that he has to pay the licence. He lost in that he has also has to pay the court costs. He lost in that he received a conditional discharge, meaning that further trouble will lead to a much bigger punishment.

In short, he lost.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Feb 26, 2013)

Jazzz - how about you explain, _in your own words_ rather than cut and paste from a loon site, how this result is in any way a "victory"?


----------



## Remus Harbank (Feb 26, 2013)

I like loons.


----------



## mrs quoad (Feb 26, 2013)

afaict, the Mail is the only mainstream press to've taken this up so far 








> District Judge Stephen Nicholls said: 'This is not a public inquiry into 9/11. This is an offence under section 363 of the Communications Act.'


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 26, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> Back in Horsham Magistrates Court campaigners have been planning future tactics. Tony Rook's victory, helped by lawyer Mahtab Aziz, implies that the BBC has a case to answer, but expert witnesses including Danish associate professor Niels Harrit were not called due to legal technicalities. However the District Judge would have read their statements before the hearing and taken them into account.


 
This is some seriously delusional shit. None of the above bears any relation to what has actually happened in real life.



> Conditional discharges are often used in political cases to indicate that the accused, though technically guilty,* occupies the moral high ground. *


 
 No they're not!

Magistrates: "Let's give him one of those 'moral high-ground' sentences"!


----------



## Yelkcub (Feb 26, 2013)




----------



## butchersapron (Feb 26, 2013)

So let us see - we predicted exactly how the case would go, we predicted exactly what the loons would say afterwards - and i think it's fair to say that we predicted exactly how jazzz would behave once the case crumbled.


----------



## Teaboy (Feb 26, 2013)

I do however like the idea that not being able to call a witness because he/she has notning to do with the case is a 'legal technicality'.  I'd have got off that £60 speeding fine if I only I was allowed to call the pope as a witness!


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 26, 2013)

Teaboy said:


> I do however like the idea that not being able to call a witness because he/she has notning to do with the case is a 'legal technicality'. I'd have got off that £60 speeding fine if I only I was allowed to call the pope as a witness!


_Can a juror come to a verdict based on a reason that was not presented in court and has no facts or evidence to support it, either from the prosecution or defence?_

(that said, don't take that as sneering at that jury, they did the exact right thing)


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 26, 2013)

mrs quoad said:


> afaict, the Mail is the only mainstream press to've taken this up so far


 

theres the obligatoryV mask after all


----------



## editor (Feb 26, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> theres the obligatoryV mask after all


I bet they're all demolition experts too, and very well versed in the practical uses of thermite.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Feb 26, 2013)

Roadkill said:


> The fact the court decided to give him a conditional discharge just means that the District Judge let him off lightly for reasons best known to himself.


 
I suspect most likely because that's what they give to everyone they see who hasn't paid their TV licence.


----------



## existentialist (Feb 26, 2013)

Spymaster said:


> This is some seriously delusional shit. None of the above bears any relation to what has actually happened in real life.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I rather like the way that Jazzz's chums have unilaterally decided that it's a" political case" despite the fact that the judge couldn't have made it clearer that he was having no truck with all the "BBC = terrorists" guff.


----------



## Yelkcub (Feb 26, 2013)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> I suspect most likely because that's what they give to everyone they see who hasn't paid their TV licence.


 
That's how they cover it up, yes. With the millions other cases treated exactly the same so you don't notice this one


----------



## JimW (Feb 26, 2013)

I think we need to see this more as a moral score draw with away goals counting double.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 26, 2013)

JimW said:


> I think we need to see this more as a moral score draw with away goals counting double.


It's not gone to penalties, though, has it? Eh? Costs isn't even a fine really. Not when you think about it. And a conditional discharge is like, well, it's as good as getting off.

He's had two players sent off, but he's still in there fighting. 9 v 11.


----------



## JimW (Feb 26, 2013)

I've not had any more of that conditional discharge since that course of antibiotics.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 26, 2013)

I just discharged all over my pants. What a condition.


----------



## Yelkcub (Feb 26, 2013)

I've decided to read Jazzzz threads from now on. This is hilarious


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 26, 2013)

His best song - from 2 minutes in:


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Feb 26, 2013)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> I suspect most likely because that's what they give to everyone they see who hasn't paid their TV licence.


My nasty ranty sister got a £1000 fine plus legal costs


----------



## gosub (Feb 26, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> _Can a juror come to a verdict based on a reason that was not presented in court and has no facts or evidence to support it, either from the prosecution or defence?_
> 
> (that said, don't take that as sneering at that jury, they did the exact right thing)


 

Technically, since 1670 Edward Bushell, yes


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 26, 2013)

A sample of their reports after the conviction:

Tony Rooke persuaded the courts that BBC must answer allegation that, in covering up info on 9/11 attacks they are colluding with terrorism

Unbelievable victory for protestor, Tony Rooke who affirms that the BBC's coverage of 9/11 was false

Conditional Discharge for 9/11 activist Tony Rooke -V BBC - indicates Judge at Horsham Mag had sympathy for his not paying TV License!

The hero of the day is Tony Rooke...brilliantly challenging the#BBC in court today for colluding in the 9/11 cover-up

UK media blackout on today's Horsham Court case started by Tony Rooke against BBC alleging cover up and disinfo on 911.

#BBC #9/11 —Coverage was False—Moral Victory for FilmMaker Tony#Rooke at #UK court

BBC In the DOCK

now ROOKE needs to sue BBC PROPERLY!


----------



## editor (Feb 26, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> now ROOKE needs to sue BBC PROPERLY!


That'll be a laugh.


----------



## Yelkcub (Feb 26, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> A sample of their reports after the conviction:
> 
> Tony Rooke persuaded the courts that BBC must answer allegation that, in covering up info on 9/11 attacks they are colluding with terrorism
> 
> ...


 
Is there a mental illness element to this? Genuinely?


----------



## two sheds (Feb 26, 2013)

A cult element although those two things do tend to merge


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 26, 2013)

Yelkcub said:


> Is there a mental illness element to this? Genuinely?


I should think so yes. Amplified by a society that they feel (and correctly) that they have little or no control over. Try telling _them_ that though!


----------



## TruXta (Feb 26, 2013)

Generalised paranoia.


----------



## 8ball (Feb 26, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> I should think so yes. Amplified by a society that they feel (and correctly) that they have little or no control over. Try telling _them_ that though!


 
In this case it's like a weird parallel universe version of Alcoholics Anonymous where the mutual support consists of gathering together for a massive piss-up.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Feb 26, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> A sample of their reports after the conviction:
> 
> Tony Rooke persuaded the courts that BBC must answer allegation that, in covering up info on 9/11 attacks they are colluding with terrorism
> 
> ...


They're just in a complete fantasy land


----------



## kabbes (Feb 26, 2013)

I've just caught up with this thread.

Is this shit actually real?  Not a pisstake?


----------



## existentialist (Feb 26, 2013)

kabbes said:


> I've just caught up with this thread.
> 
> Is this shit actually real? Not a pisstake?


Well, you have to wonder. But if it's in the Daily Mail, it must be true! 

Seriously, though, looking at all the grandiose "press releases" from Conspiraloon Central, and the delightful exhibitions of trainspotter chic in all the photos, I think what we're looking at here are some seriously insignificant people desperately trying to persuade themselves that they are Terribly Significant Fighters For Truth And Justice, despite all evidence to the contrary.


----------



## equationgirl (Feb 26, 2013)

kabbes said:


> I've just caught up with this thread.
> 
> Is this shit actually real? Not a pisstake?


It is actually real, unlike their theory that the BBC supports terrorists.


----------



## equationgirl (Feb 26, 2013)

This paragraph is my favourite:


> Back in Horsham Magistrates Court campaigners have been planning future tactics. Tony Rook's victory, helped by lawyer Mahtab Aziz, implies that the BBC has a case to answer, but expert witnesses including Danish associate professor Niels Harrit were not called due to legal technicalities. However the District Judge would have read their statements before the hearing and taken them into account.


 
Utter, utter bollocks, all of it. Neils Harrit not called due to 'legal technicalities' ffs


----------



## equationgirl (Feb 26, 2013)

Jazzz - this is not a political case by any stretch of the imagination or a moral victory. Just so you're clear this was not a victory of any kind. Really. It's. Not. A. Victory.

Other than for common sense and legal process, obviously.


----------



## Grandma Death (Feb 26, 2013)

Jazz you were right along. Now stop posting this tin foil hat bollocks please. Thanks.


----------



## Grandma Death (Feb 26, 2013)

editor said:


> Jazzz: here's your big chance to sock it to The Man and hit him hard with your Truth Baton!



This could be like the anti poll tax campaign. Except with tv licences and box full of mad frogs..


----------



## Grandma Death (Feb 26, 2013)

kabbes said:


> I've just caught up with this thread.
> 
> Is this shit actually real?  Not a pisstake?



No it's a holograph. Jazz is an autobot and this whole thing is controlled by a cabal of jewz. 

Has anyone actually met jazz in real life... I rest my case.


----------



## Grandma Death (Feb 26, 2013)

The BBC is notoriously renowned for hiding the truth. I mean look how they protected that nonce Saville. Bastards. Given their track record I wouldn't be surprised if they were in on all of this. The towers. The explosives. The grassy knoll. The list goes on.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 26, 2013)

Apparently the truthers are seeking a review of the incidents around the collapse of the tower of babel, it seems it was an aeroplane rather than god


----------



## Voley (Feb 26, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Unbelievable victory for protestor, Tony Rooke who affirms that the BBC's coverage of 9/11 was false


That's brilliant.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Feb 26, 2013)

editor said:


> I wonder if urban has a bigger readership than the West Sussex County Times.


 
the toilet walls in the albert have a bigger readership etc.


----------



## equationgirl (Feb 26, 2013)

Jazzz has deserted the thermite thread as well


----------



## el-ahrairah (Feb 26, 2013)

Grandma Death said:


> Has anyone actually met jazz in real life... I rest my case.


 
yes, sorry.  he does magic.  it's his thing.  i have to admit, i think it's the thing he uses to chat up women. what do pick up artists call their thing?  it's like that.


----------



## Jon-of-arc (Feb 26, 2013)

How any loon vaguely involved in trying to spin this epic clusterfuck total non-event into some kind of victory for their movement, how they can have the temerity to accuse the beeb of "ignoring important facts" in reaching the conclusion it did regarding 9/11 conspiracies, well, the irony just makes your head spin.

What about the important facts that his argument doesnt appear to have been heard, and he was found guilty?

It's all the proof you'd ever need that anything these loons ever say, the opposite must be true.  



> Tony Rooke persuaded the courts that BBC must answer allegation that, in covering up info on 9/11 attacks they are colluding with terrorism
> 
> Unbelievable victory for protestor, Tony Rooke who affirms that the BBC's coverage of 9/11 was false


 
are the two most disingenuous comments.  It's one thing to misinterpret (or, more likely, try to lead others to misinterpret) the meaning of a conditional discharge, as some kind of "guilty but morally correct" sentence.  It's quite another to completely make up outcomes which imply that some kind of legal judgement has been made against the BBC.  This shit is fucking bonkers.


----------



## JimW (Feb 26, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> Utter, utter bollocks, all of it. Neils Harrit not called due to 'legal technicalities' ffs


The old legal technicality of having fuck all to do with the case. These lizards aren't half cunning with their loopholes.


----------



## existentialist (Feb 26, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> Apparently the truthers are seeking a review of the incidents around the collapse of the tower of babel, it seems it was an aeroplane rather than god


Aeroplane??? Pshaw, it was holographic archangels. With flaming swords and wings and shit. Here, watch this nine hour YouTube video.


----------



## Grandma Death (Feb 26, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> Jazzz has deserted the thermite thread as well


 

Jazz is the equivalent of a suicide bomber for conspiracy theorists. One minute hes there-then he's gone.


----------



## Jazzz (Feb 26, 2013)

Some good coverage in the Daily Mail.



> TV licence evader refused to pay because the 'BBC covered up facts about 9/11 and claimed tower fell 20 minutes before it did'
> 
> *Tony Rooke represented himself at Horsham Magistrates' Court in Sussex*
> *Told inspector on visit in May 2012 that he would not be paying licence fee*
> ...


 
rest of article


----------



## wemakeyousoundb (Feb 26, 2013)

no Jazzz just no


Grandma Death said:


> This could be like the anti poll tax campaign. Except with tv licences and box full of mad frogs..


you leave the mad frogs alone


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Feb 27, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> Some good coverage in the Daily Mail.


Any chance of you giving us _your own opinion_ on the result Jazzz?


----------



## Roadkill (Feb 27, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> Some good coverage in the Daily Mail.
> 
> 
> rest of article


 
So, he was done for not having a TV licence, given a conditional discharge and required to pay costs.  This is a victory how, exactly...?


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 27, 2013)

it was a victory in the sense that he got two dozen sadsacks out to support him, and didn't mention the jews once


----------



## Roadkill (Feb 27, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> it was a victory in the sense that he got two dozen sadsacks out to support him, and didn't mention the jews once


 
And that a British 'courtroom' heard masses of evidence against the 'official narrative of 9/11.'  Or something.


----------



## Jazzz (Feb 27, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> it was a victory in the sense that he got two dozen sadsacks out to support him, and didn't mention the jews once


DotCommunist,

I hope you aren't insinuating that Rooke holds an entire race of people responsible for 9/11 without any basis whatsoever that he personally thinks that way. I am really disappointed with this continued shameful stuff on urban75. Bandying about accusations of racism where none exists is an insult to any genuine anti-racism campaigner, and many on these boards should know a great deal better


----------



## barney_pig (Feb 27, 2013)

Do you discuss genuine anti racism campaigns on your study dates with holocaust deniers?


----------



## JimW (Feb 27, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> ...I am really disappointed with this continued shameful stuff on urban75. Bandying about accusations of racism where none exists is an insult to any genuine anti-racism campaigner, and many on these boards should know a great deal better


It's not as disappointing as seeing you continue to peddle your various conspiracies that, as has been pointed out to you numerous times, are modelled after and repeat classic anti-Semitic tropes.As well as being utter bollocks.


----------



## Blagsta (Feb 27, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> DotCommunist,
> 
> I hope you aren't insinuating that Rooke holds an entire race of people responsible for 9/11 without any basis whatsoever that he personally thinks that way. I am really disappointed with this continued shameful stuff on urban75. Bandying about accusations of racism where none exists is an insult to any genuine anti-racism campaigner, and many on these boards should know a great deal better



Stop hanging out with racists.


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 27, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> DotCommunist,
> 
> I hope you aren't insinuating that Rooke holds an entire race of people responsible for 9/11 without any basis whatsoever that he personally thinks that way. I am really disappointed with this continued shameful stuff on urban75. Bandying about accusations of racism where none exists is an insult to any genuine anti-racism campaigner, and many on these boards should know a great deal better


 

Jazzz


which one of us is mates with Nick Kollestrom?


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 27, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> DotCommunist,
> 
> I hope you aren't insinuating that Rooke holds an entire race of people responsible for 9/11 without any basis whatsoever that he personally thinks that way. I am really disappointed with this continued shameful stuff on urban75. Bandying about accusations of racism where none exists is an insult to any genuine anti-racism campaigner, and many on these boards should know a great deal better


 


why do you think people always accuse you of being an anti-semite jazzz? as it happens i don't think you are. but surely, in the however many years you have been involved with this stuff you must have noticed how much racist shit there is?


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Feb 27, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> in the however many years you have been involved with this stuff you must have noticed how much racist shit there is?


I believe his line here is "even racists can be right sometimes"


----------



## JimW (Feb 27, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> ...but surely, in the however many years you have been involved with this stuff you must have noticed how much racist shit there is?


Too busy looking for the esoteric and non-existent to notice the bleeding obvious.


----------



## existentialist (Feb 27, 2013)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> I believe his line here is "even racists can be right sometimes"


Or, perhaps,"their views on race are not relevant to the Greater Truths, which are of course anything I believe to be true". 

It's ends-justifies-the-means thinking for paranoid zealots...which is probably why racism crops up so often in the context of conspiraloonery - they share a lot of thinking errors in common.


----------



## Roadkill (Feb 27, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> DotCommunist,
> 
> I hope you aren't insinuating that Rooke holds an entire race of people responsible for 9/11 without any basis whatsoever that he personally thinks that way. I am really disappointed with this continued shameful stuff on urban75. Bandying about accusations of racism where none exists is an insult to any genuine anti-racism campaigner, and many on these boards should know a great deal better


 
Your ability to ignore points and duck questions that are inconvenient for you is astounding.

I'd love to hear how Rooke's conviction for not having a TV licence can be construed as a victory, but I suppose there's precious little chance of your ever explaining it...


----------



## Random (Feb 27, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> Nick Kollestrom?


 Sounds like the stuff that you feed people who were born yesterday


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 27, 2013)

"I mentioned the jews once, but I think I got away with it"


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 27, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> Some good coverage in the Daily Mail.
> 
> 
> 
> rest of article


 
Why did you post that?

Is there anything in that article that supports your claim that this was some kind of victory for this prat?


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Feb 27, 2013)

Spymaster said:


> Is there anything in that article that supports your claim that this was some kind of victory for this prat?


 
He seems to be being careful to avoid actually claiming that himself - he's just sticking to the links. I think if he was honest (which he's not, obviously) even he'd admit it's a totally ridiculous claim.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 27, 2013)

the comments


----------



## mrs quoad (Feb 27, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> the comments


"Few of us have the courage to take it this far but can only moan about the hypocropasy that is all things BBC."

'Hypocropasy"


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 27, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> DotCommunist,
> 
> I hope you aren't insinuating that Rooke holds an entire race of people responsible for 9/11 without any basis whatsoever that he personally thinks that way. I am really disappointed with this continued shameful stuff on urban75. Bandying about accusations of racism where none exists is an insult to any genuine anti-racism campaigner, and many on these boards should know a great deal better


Well, here is his expert witness Tony Farrell being all pally with anti-semite and holocuast denier Nick Kollerstrom in a film they made together .

Only ever a few steps away.



(ed: I've embedded the video for you but will un-embed if you want)


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 27, 2013)

from the comments:

_How do the small number of filthy antiGentile/antiSemitic(includ__ingMoslems!)_
_/antiEveryone , but their hatefilledZionist selves. Get away with it...?_
_Where are 'our'(?) Politicians, Police , Military officers ??_
_To understand, watch "HowZionistsDivideAndConquer",__"JamesWright,_
_Scottish Rite 'Sentinel' program". Read"TheInternationalJew"4vols_
_(80articles)editorHenryFord.re__fage68,etc,vol1.Learn the methodology_
_of recruiting/manipulating men/women, via fraternities(Masons,etc)to be_
_complicant in subverting their own countries, at the demands of theirZionist_
_puppet meisters. WatchMikeRavero,DavidIrving andEusticeMullins ._
_See"AlexJones'CoverUp'~israeli__SpyRing inUSA,Australia andCanada"_
_"BenFreedmans1961speech","Rabb__isAgainstZionism" and Linked vids._
_See w w w. i am the witness. c o m and 'Links'. Britain has been'owned'_
_by these international schleppers for a long time. Learn the reality of_
_OUR very dangerous situation._

yeah because that's not anti-semitic at all.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 27, 2013)

What do you think about Rooke attempting to use as an expert witness someone who is more than happy to work with holocaust deniers Jazzz?

Have you now cut all ties with the holocaust denier Nick Kollerstrom after your own previous joint work with him? If so, why? On what grounds? His anti-semitism? If so, then why would you think that it's for ok Farrell to work with him without it undermining his own credibility?

You _have_ cut ties with Kollerstrom right? Haven't you?


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 27, 2013)

Lol at 02.51 of that video


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 27, 2013)

Watching the film now. 03:15 - His activist credentials include "losing his fellowship at UCL after daring to modify "revisionist" material about Auschwitz ..."


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 27, 2013)

Farrell can't even pretend that he didn't know about his mates holocaust denials in the way that jazzz did as in the video they produced together they chose to include this (edit: as noted above):


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Feb 27, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Well, here is his expert witness Tony Farrell being all pally with anti-semite and holocuast denier Nick Kollerstrom in a film they made together .
> 
> Only ever a few steps away.


Skimming though that clip reminded me of one of the funnier loon theories, that there was a "clue" on the side of the bus that exploded because it had an advert for a film on it...






You really couldn't make this shit up


----------



## sihhi (Feb 27, 2013)

On Kollestrom nowadays, his main website is 

http://www.whatreallyhappened.info

The website is a new form of Holocaust-based anti-semitism positing Finkelstein as a Neutral between Holocaust Orthdoxy and Holocaust Revisionism (denial of murderous intent by the Nazi elite and belief that deaths of Jews were magnified a five hundred fold by a Soviet-Allied post-war conspiracy).
Treating itself as merely a fascinated curious observer.

In its WW2-related history it describes a Soviet interrogation and prison centre for caught Nazis and collaborators - Zgoda labour camp - as a "Jewish concentration camp for Germans".
It features prominent centre-right filth like Peter Hitchens and Pat Buchanan:

Peter Hitchens on WW2 (Daily Mail)

Did Hitler want war? (Pat Buchanan)

Alongside masses of partially posted Bletchley Park intelligence documents.

It is also heavily part of the Committee for Open Debate on the Holocaust.

http://forum.codoh.info/viewforum.php?f=2

Kollestrom is a semi-prominent guest on conspiracist US radio:

http://truthjihadradio.blogspot.nl/2013/01/academic-witch-hunt-target-nick.html


----------



## Lemon Eddy (Feb 27, 2013)

sihhi said:


> It features prominent centre-right filth like Peter Hitchens and Pat Buchanan:


 
Pat Buchanan is centre-right?


----------



## editor (Feb 27, 2013)

Sorry, butchersapron - trying to be helpful, I embedded that video for you but its such stinking a pile of loonshite I'm thinking you intentionally only posted up a screen grab. Please advise!


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 27, 2013)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Skimming though that clip reminded me of one of the funnier loon theories, that there was a "clue" on the side of the bus that exploded because it had an advert for a film on it...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


yer that's what it said in the ripple effect


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 27, 2013)

editor said:


> Sorry, butchersapron - trying to be helpful, I embedded that video for you but its such stinking a pile of loonshite I'm thinking you intentionally only posted up a screen grab. Please advise!


I did yep! But leave the vid up on the first one if you're happy with it being linked to here. No worries either way.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 27, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Farrell can't even pretend that he didn't know about his mates holocaust denials in the way that jazzz did as in the video they produced together they chose to include this (edit: as noted above):


 
did you see belinda bringing the tea and wearing the mystery jew-detecting truth glasses ?


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 27, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Farrell can't even pretend that he didn't know about his mates holocaust denials in the way that jazzz did as in the video they produced together they chose to include this (edit: as noted above):


surely i'm not the only person to think that anyone getting involved with an anti-falklands war group in 1986 has somewhat missed the boat, as it were.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 27, 2013)

Interesting slip of the tounge at about 10.30 ...


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 27, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> Interesting slip of the tounge at about 10.30 ...


you are probably the only person who watched till 10:30


----------



## binka (Feb 27, 2013)

sihhi said:


> It is also heavily part of the Committee for Open Debate on the Holocaust.
> 
> http://forum.codoh.info/viewforum.php?f=2


im always impressed with your referencing skills sihhi, i think you might have just linked to the worst place on the internet


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 27, 2013)

"this legislation is demonising the muslims, and that's not good enough"

it's demonising the wrong people in other words


----------



## sihhi (Feb 27, 2013)

binka said:


> im always impressed with your referencing skills sihhi, i think you might have just linked to the worst place on the internet


 
binka, there may be a few unsavoury people on the forum but remember that it publishes an academic quarterly bulletin. Its sole purpose is for _truth_. We should seriously _seek the truth_, not simply accept received eyewitness reports and official statements _at face value_, the _truth will set us free_, _finding the truth_ is an important task, however _truthseekers_ are ridiculed by an unholy alliance of establishment judges and new left acolytes who accuse anyone they dislike of antisemitism.

In the spirit of truthseeking, here is the latest issue reviewing the work of architectural historian and Holocaust camp expert Robert Jan van Pelt:

"In the chapter “Intentional Evidence” there is, for example, the witness Janda Weiss. He came to Auschwitz when he was 14 years old and, strangely enough, was not sent to the gas chamber right away, in spite of his young age. Instead, he was put to work as a kitchen helper and took food to the crematorium Sonderkommando to which he would a year later be assigned himself. Like so many other such witnesses, he was spared the fate that allegedly struck this unit regularly, and survived to tell his tale.
For a number of procedural reasons - Weiss made specific allegations and provided specific details - van Pelt agrees with Wilhelm Staeglich, the arch-revisionist, that Weiss should be taken seriously as a witness. So far, so good. But if we examine what Weiss had to say, at least two of the details he provided are so ludicrous as to disqualify him entirely.
There is, first of all, the story of elderly people being carted away from the “ramp” on a dump truck that took them straight to the burning trenches and tipped them into the fire alive. Leaving aside the question of whether it was possible to drive a heavy truck across the swampy ground of Birkenau without getting stuck, we reach a limit when we imagine this truck being carefully backed up to the edge of a trench blazing with fire and then dumping its uncooperative load. This can simply not be done in a matter of seconds and there is thus a serious risk of the truck catching fire or even exploding in the process. Any German soldier foolish enough to undertake such a highly risky and totally useless operation would certainly have been court-martialed for endangering government property, if not for outright sabotage.
There is also the question of what these trenches looked like: either the sides of the trench were banked, in which case the truck could not get close enough to the fire in such an operation, or if the banks were vertical, the tail end of the truck would extend into the flames and the edge of this make-shift trench would eventually crumble with disastrous results."

http://inconvenienthistory.com/archive/2013/volume_5/number_1/the_case_for_auschwitz.php

Why am I so quick to dismiss these details? Why is there a continuing conspiracy of silence on these matters? Why is the BBC funding outright propaganda and terrorism-by-slander against tortured German leaders who couldn't speak for themselves at their trials with such output as BBC Four's World War Two and and BBC Two's Witness to Auschwitz? The BBC with the Jimmy Saville scandal is unable to investigate a repeat child molester in its midsts, so it is hardly surprising that they it does not have the courage to impartially investigate the false allegation crime of the twentieth century. Should I not demand that neighbours and friends support any new investigation of the Holocaust events during the second world war so long as it is run by uncompromised people with a range of opinion including those inclined to disbelieve the official Holocaust discourse? Why or Why not?


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 27, 2013)

Ugh. They're proper cunts mate.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 27, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> you are probably the only person who watched till 10:30


 
I watched the whole thing with their nauseating finish about who to send their truth hearts to. Be glad you didn't


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 27, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> I watched the whole thing with their nauseating finish about who to send their truth hearts to. Be glad you didn't


that's why there's people like you, to make people like me glad we didn't watch the video


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 27, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> that's why there's people like you, to make people like me glad we didn't watch the video


 
you mean you didn't want to sit through those two going through a pack of cards and at the end going on about who to send the hearts out to? and talking about how the 7/7 bombers were simple souls who only interested in buying pairs of trainers and a new car (they did actually say this)

some people have no taste


----------



## sihhi (Feb 27, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> Ugh. They're proper cunts mate.


 
No, I am the cunt because I suggest the likes of Tony Rooke and Jazzz facilitate antisemitism, when they occupy the moral high ground: "Conditional discharges are often used in political cases to indicate that the accused, though technically guilty, occupies the moral high ground. In addition the case provides a yardstick that can be raised by future campaigners. On the other hand because he has not been convicted, Tony cannot appeal and force the courts to scrutinise the highly questionable activities of the BBC as a conduit for CIA propaganda. It's now essential for Tony's campaign that at least one person should take up the baton, refuse to pay their licence fee and appeal any conviction. Anyone interested should contact him at rookietone@hotmail.com"


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 27, 2013)

sihhi said:


> No, I am the cunt because I suggest the likes of Tony Rooke and Jazzz facilitate antisemitism, when they occupy the moral high ground: "Conditional discharges are often used in political cases to indicate that the accused, though technically guilty, occupies the moral high ground. In addition the case provides a yardstick that can be raised by future campaigners. On the other hand because he has not been convicted, Tony cannot appeal and force the courts to scrutinise the highly questionable activities of the BBC as a conduit for CIA propaganda. It's now essential for Tony's campaign that at least one person should take up the baton, refuse to pay their licence fee and appeal any conviction. Anyone interested should contact him at rookietone@hotmail.com"


 
"only a zionist would accuse somebody of anti-semitism"


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 27, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> "only a zionist would accuse somebody of anti-semitism"


it is so often the way


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 27, 2013)

lol "wake up sheeple"


----------



## Random (Feb 27, 2013)

sihhi said:


> It's now essential for Tony's campaign that at least one person should take up the baton, refuse to pay their licence fee and appeal any conviction. Anyone interested should contact him at rookietone@hotmail.com"


 He could take up the baton easily enough by himself, by refusing to pay the 200 quid costs.


----------



## sihhi (Feb 27, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> I am reluctant to even dignify such gross misrepresentation/outright lies with a reply BA.


 
OK So what was your relationship with Kollestrom? You explain.



Jazzz said:


> I am really disappointed with this continued shameful stuff on urban75.


But why aren't you investigating the official version of the Holocaust, Jazzz? The 9/11 problem only incorrectly labels nineteen people as terrorists. The Holocaust problem incorrectly labels thousands of Germans as terrorists. Which truth is more important?



Have you even read any of the Spring 2013 issue of Inconvenient History? With articles from retired cryptographers and intelligence agents, it effectively debunks the official narrative, helping the quest for the real truth.


Jazzz said:


> Bandying about accusations of racism where none exists is an insult to any genuine anti-racism campaigner, and many on these boards should know a great deal better


 This is exactly what the official Holocaust agenda has been doing against Germans for the past 60 years. It is an insult to any genuine anti-racism campaigner, and people like you who are committed seekers of truth, eager for a non-violent world, should know a great deal better.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 27, 2013)

sihhi said:
			
		

> This is exactly what the official Holocaust agenda has been doing against Germans for the past 60 years. It is an insult to any genuine anti-racism, and people like you who are committed seekers of truth, eager for a non-violent world, should know a great deal better.


 
And if the holocaust was accepted to be a lie we'd be a few steps down the road to the end of NWO tyranny


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 27, 2013)

that's what the original nazis were trying to do. they just wanted to expose the truth and look what happened.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 27, 2013)

Still, Barnes, Martin and their peers managed to create a set of solid historical research based on the facts. Once lost down the Orwellian ‘memory hole,’ the names of John T. Flynn, Garet Garrett, Charles Callan Tansill, William Henry Chamberlin, Captain Russell Grenfell, Walter Millis, Francis Neilson, F.J.P. Veale, and Luigi Villari can be found influencing contemporary thought and _*being sought out by a new generation who cannot be properly classified as "right" or "left" by contemporary standards.*_


of course they can't



*While those who want to shut us down are backed by organizations and individuals with a seemingly endless supply of money*,


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 27, 2013)

*NOW AVAILABLE!* The hardbound edition of _Inconvenient History_ Volume 3 is now available! Our third beautiful hardbound annual contains 486 pages of hard-hitting revisionist scholarship revealing the truth on several inconvenient moments in our recent history.
_Inconvenient History_ Volume 3 contains all the content from our 4 issues from 2011. You will receive a hardbound book with the Spring, Summer, Fall, and Winter issues of Inconvenient History.

This volume is jam-packed with hard-hitting revisionism. In this jam-packed volume you'll get Paul Grubach's Churchill, International Jews and the Holocaust, Thomas Kues's The Maly Trostenets "Extermination Camp," Parts 1 and 2, Thomas Dalton's Gassing, Burning, and Burying: Relative Capacities Reported for the Aktion Reinhardt Camps, Santiago Alvarez's Lanzmann's Shoah Witness Simon Srebnik and Lanzmann's Shoah Witness Bronislaw Falborski, Paul Grubach's Jewish Conspiracy Theory, the Eichmann Testimony and the Holocaust, Jurgen Graf's Defending the Faith: Tomasz Kranz's "Mass Killings by Means of Toxic Gases in the Majdanek Concentration Camp," Daniel McGowan's Deir Yassin: Inconvenient History, Thomas Kues's A Premature News Report on a "Death Camp" for Jews, Veronica Clark's Demystification of the Birth and Funding of the NSDAP, Paul Grubach's The Zionist Racism of Anti-Racist Jared Diamond, Thomas Dalton's Reexaming the "Gas Chamber" of Dachau, Klaus Schwensen's The Report of the Soviet Extraordinary State Commission on the Sachsenhausen Concentration Camp, Nicholas Kollerstrom's On the Avoidability of World War One, Thomas Kues's Evidence for the Presence of "Gassed" Jews in the Occupied Eastern Territories, Part 3, Jurgen Graf's The Moral and Intellectual Bankruptcy of a Scholar: Dr. Christian Lindtner and Holocaust Revisionism. But that's not all! You'll also get all of our challenging editorials, informative book reviews, commentary and our popular Profiles in History series.


----------



## Random (Feb 27, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> *While those who want to shut us down are backed by organizations and individuals with a seemingly endless supply of money*,


 It's because money can just be created out of thin air. By banks. Run by Rothchilds.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 27, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> *NOW AVAILABLE!* The hardbound edition of _Inconvenient History_ Volume 3 is now available! Our third beautiful hardbound annual contains 486 pages of hard-hitting revisionist scholarship revealing the truth on several inconvenient moments in our recent history.
> _Inconvenient History_ Volume 3 contains all the content from our 4 issues from 2011. You will receive a hardbound book with the Spring, Summer, Fall, and Winter issues of Inconvenient History.
> 
> This volume is jam-packed with hard-hitting revisionism. In this jam-packed volume you'll get Paul Grubach's Churchill, International Jews and the Holocaust, Thomas Kues's The Maly Trostenets "Extermination Camp," Parts 1 and 2, Thomas Dalton's Gassing, Burning, and Burying: Relative Capacities Reported for the Aktion Reinhardt Camps, Santiago Alvarez's Lanzmann's Shoah Witness Simon Srebnik and Lanzmann's Shoah Witness Bronislaw Falborski, Paul Grubach's Jewish Conspiracy Theory, the Eichmann Testimony and the Holocaust, Jurgen Graf's Defending the Faith: Tomasz Kranz's "Mass Killings by Means of Toxic Gases in the Majdanek Concentration Camp," Daniel McGowan's Deir Yassin: Inconvenient History, Thomas Kues's A Premature News Report on a "Death Camp" for Jews, Veronica Clark's Demystification of the Birth and Funding of the NSDAP, Paul Grubach's The Zionist Racism of Anti-Racist Jared Diamond, Thomas Dalton's Reexaming the "Gas Chamber" of Dachau, Klaus Schwensen's The Report of the Soviet Extraordinary State Commission on the Sachsenhausen Concentration Camp, Nicholas Kollerstrom's On the Avoidability of World War One, Thomas Kues's Evidence for the Presence of "Gassed" Jews in the Occupied Eastern Territories, Part 3, Jurgen Graf's The Moral and Intellectual Bankruptcy of a Scholar: Dr. Christian Lindtner and Holocaust Revisionism. But that's not all! You'll also get all of our challenging editorials, informative book reviews, commentary and our popular Profiles in History series.


a proper ad will have price and outlets which supply the product.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 27, 2013)

No revisionist library is complete without this volume.
You may order your copy today... :
$35.00 for 486 hard bound pages of revisionist truth. This price includes Shipping and handling.
*Ordering Information:
Make checks payable to Bradley R. Smith
Bradley R. Smith
P.O. Box 439016
San Ysidro, CA 92143*

"THe very ink with which history is written is merely fluid prejudice" –Mark Twain.


i suppose jews run the internet or something


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 27, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> i suppose jews run the internet or something


you don't want everyone to know


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 27, 2013)

_$35.00 for 486 hard bound pages of revisionist truth._


this was actually written.

also what's with the cost? is this in preparation for when there are no jews and somebody has to take over the usury business


----------



## sihhi (Feb 27, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> that's what the original nazis were trying to do. they just wanted to expose the truth and look what happened.


 
No, the Nazis were misguised, evil and dangerous, but no more specifically racist than anyone else at the time. David Irving was trying to expose this truth and look what happened. People were happy enough to listen when he exposed how Jewish the Hungarian Communists were in _Uprising! _but seeking the truth about Churchill, Hitler and the Holocaust has meant he has paid a heavy price. The double standards are there, truth seekers must expose them.


----------



## Buckaroo (Feb 27, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Well, here is his expert witness Tony Farrell being all pally with anti-semite and holocuast denier Nick Kollerstrom in a film they made together .
> 
> Only ever a few steps away.
> 
> ...




Profile: Dr. Nicholas Kollerstrom.....Former Lunar gardening correspondent for the BBC...


----------



## Yossarian (Feb 27, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> that's what the original nazis were trying to do. they just wanted to expose the truth and look what happened.


 
When Jazzz once again posts up scans of his grandparents' passports and describes them as conspiracy theorists, the cycle will be complete.


----------



## sihhi (Feb 27, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> "only a zionist would accuse somebody of anti-semitism"


 
Wellll, the keenest Zionists such as the ADL as the strongest accusers of anti-semitism in the work of historians analysing the second world war. Are the ADL on the side of _truth_ or not? The chief lawyer in the Lipstadt anti-David Irving libel trial was Anthony Julius, chairman of the ardently Zionist _Jewish Chronicle_. The Jewish Chronicle just can't stop attacking those who simply search for truth as _conspiracy theorists. _
Search conspiracy theory and you will find hundreds of hits:
http://archive.thejc.com/searchn/advsearch.jsp


"Isn't it time for the Jewish Chronicle and the ADL to come clean?"


----------



## Buckaroo (Feb 27, 2013)

Norman Finkelstein.
"I don't think it's useful for us to squander energy on conspiracy theories. There is so much that we know is wrong,
there is so much that we know that there is no debate, it's immoral, it's criminal and it's savage. Why don't we invest our energies which are scarce, our resources which are scarce and try to undo the evils about which there is no doubt
rather than speculate about things for which there is a great deal of doubt and which might just turn out to be
complete fanatsy."


----------



## two sheds (Feb 27, 2013)

And our noam, innoculating against conspiracy theory by pointing out that there's no need for a conspiracy theory - it's all just people with money maximising their profit. It's not even as if they try to hide it. On being accused of being a conspiracy theorist: 

"There's nothing more remote from what we have been discussing than a conspiracy theory. If I give an analysis of, say the economic system, and I point out that GM tries to maximize profit and market share - that's not a conspiracy theory; that's an institutional analysis. It has nothing to do with conspiracies. That's precisely the sense in which we've been talking about the media. The phrase "conspiracy theory" is one of those that's constantly brought up, and I think it's effect simply is to discourage institutional analysis."


----------



## equationgirl (Feb 27, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> Some good coverage in the Daily Mail.
> 
> rest of article


 
Good = agrees with your point of view??

Honestly Jazzz, that's hardly objective.


----------



## Random (Feb 27, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> Good = agrees with your point of view??
> 
> Honestly Jazzz, that's hardly objective.


The article doesn't really endorse the conspiracy, it just gives it space because the Daily Mail knows that lots of its readers hate the BBC. But for Jazz it's good simply  because it's coverage.


----------



## fogbat (Feb 27, 2013)

Nick Kollerstrom. Also an alchemist, lest we forget. I'd link to it but am on phone.


----------



## fogbat (Feb 27, 2013)

sihhi said:


> No, I am the cunt because I suggest the likes of Tony Rooke and Jazzz facilitate antisemitism, when they occupy the moral high ground: "Conditional discharges are often used in political cases to indicate that the accused, though technically guilty, occupies the moral high ground. In addition the case provides a yardstick that can be raised by future campaigners. On the other hand because he has not been convicted, Tony cannot appeal and force the courts to scrutinise the highly questionable activities of the BBC as a conduit for CIA propaganda. It's now essential for Tony's campaign that at least one person should take up the baton, refuse to pay their licence fee and appeal any conviction. Anyone interested should contact him at rookietone@hotmail.com"



There's an email address? 

God forbid anyone should get in touch and turn out to be mocking him


----------



## aylee (Feb 27, 2013)

sihhi said:


> It is also heavily part of the Committee for Open Debate on the Holocaust.
> 
> http://forum.codoh.info/viewforum.php?f=2


 
Or 'Holocaust', in inverted commas, as that forum describes it.


----------



## sihhi (Feb 27, 2013)

Random said:


> The article doesn't really endorse the conspiracy, it just gives it space because the Daily Mail knows that lots of its readers hate the BBC. But for Jazz it's good simply because it's coverage.


 
_Exactly_ the same thought process in the virulently antisemitic David Icke Forums:

See here: http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=235259&page=6

_'Credit to the Daily Mail!!!'_
_'They didn't use the phrase 'conspiracy theorist'?  (surprise)'_
_'I know...._
_a watershed moment indeed...._
_Can't fault that article...'_
_'On the whole I agree, but there was one comment in the Mail article that made my blood boil, quote:_
_"....the BBC allegedly reported that World Trade Centre 7 had fallen 20 minutes before...."_
_Allegedly? It's a matter of record.'_


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 27, 2013)

sihhi said:


> _Exactly_ the same thought process in the virulently antisemitic David Icke Forums:
> 
> See here: http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=235259&page=6
> 
> ...


 
Ah but how can it be anti-semitic? It's not all Jews, just the ones who control the world and convince everyone that the holohoax was real.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Feb 27, 2013)

sihhi said:


> _Exactly_ the same thought process in the virulently antisemitic David Icke Forums:
> 
> See here: http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=235259&page=6


 
Thanks to that I ended up up at this, which for complete loonspuddery takes some beating:

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=237039


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## Yossarian (Feb 27, 2013)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Thanks to that I ended up up at this, which for complete loonspuddery takes some beating:
> 
> http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=237039


 
Isn't that just fairly standard Freeman on the Land shit?

_At birth, a birth certificate application is signed by your parents which is used by Corporate Government to commence a Trust in your name. This Trust is used as collateral, and a collateral account is created and funded in your name. You are the Beneficiary of this Trust… but no-one tells you it exists. If you do not complete a Will by the age of 7, Corporate Government declares you deceased – under admiralty law of all things! – and you are officially considered by the system to be “lost at sea”. Seriously. Corporate Government then assumes financial control of your estate, and they – aware that most of us do in fact live beyond 7 – continue to treat us as living slaves. The funds generated by monetizing your life – using you as collateral – are loaned to you when you apply for bank finance, mortgages etc. You are then forced to work to repay those funds – plus interest – back to the system. Legally, you have no rights because you’re considered “dead” by the age of 7. You lose._


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## beesonthewhatnow (Feb 27, 2013)

Yossarian said:


> Isn't that just fairly standard Freeman on the Land shit?


It was the sheer amount of it and the tone of the responses that got me, it really is a religious cult.


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## Zapp Brannigan (Feb 27, 2013)

Hold on a second.  If I completed my will age 6, how does that prove that I lived past 7?  Corporate Government would still declare me deceased - under admiralty law of all things, lol! - and i'd still be "lost at sea" in the system.  Only my secret trust fund would go to my named beneficiaries instead of the greedy bastards.

I need to give this some more thought.  Because at first glance it appears to have been written by a gibbon randomly circling words in a dictionary with a crayon.


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## fogbat (Feb 27, 2013)

Yossarian said:


> Isn't that just fairly standard Freeman on the Land shit?
> 
> _At birth, a birth certificate application is signed by your parents which is used by Corporate Government to commence a Trust in your name. This Trust is used as collateral, and a collateral account is created and funded in your name. You are the Beneficiary of this Trust… but no-one tells you it exists. If you do not complete a Will by the age of 7, Corporate Government declares you deceased – under admiralty law of all things! – and you are officially considered by the system to be “lost at sea”. Seriously. Corporate Government then assumes financial control of your estate, and they – aware that most of us do in fact live beyond 7 – continue to treat us as living slaves. The funds generated by monetizing your life – using you as collateral – are loaned to you when you apply for bank finance, mortgages etc. You are then forced to work to repay those funds – plus interest – back to the system. Legally, you have no rights because you’re considered “dead” by the age of 7. You lose._


What evidence is provided for these claims? 

(I know you don't believe it, but this shite makes me want to self-harm, so I try to avoid it)


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## fogbat (Feb 27, 2013)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> It was the sheer amount of it and the tone of the responses that got me, it really is a religious cult.


Typo.


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## equationgirl (Feb 27, 2013)

It's just sheer completely hatstand loonspuddery. A will signed by a six year old wouldn't even be legal.

It just makes me do this :


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## binka (Feb 27, 2013)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Thanks to that I ended up up at this, which for complete loonspuddery takes some beating:
> 
> http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=237039


"and the powers that be, realising they were legally bested, packed up there bags and went home and we all lived happily ever after"

it's funny how they all seem to think that the law is there to protect them and all they have to do is file the right documents and everything will work out ok in the end. it's almost like a religious faith in the righteousness of the law


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## sihhi (Feb 27, 2013)

frogwoman is entirely correct. David Icke is one of the more subtle of anti-semitic conspiracists. His standard response is that Nazism are a manifestation of Illuminatism, just as Zionism is.

"David Icke: The Holocaust wasn't fictional in the sense that vast numbers of Jewish people, Communists, gypsies and so on suffered abominations at the hands of the Illuminati-created Nazis. But what I also find grotesque is the exploitation of that suffering by those who were not there and seek only to advance their own agenda and line their own pockets. Norman Finklestein, whose parents were in the concentration camps, has written a magnificent expose of these people in his book, The Holocaust Industry. Highly recommended. Those who wish to suppress the exposure of the global conspiracy also use the treatment of the Jews in Germany to dub researchers racist because they reveal the manipulations of people like the Illuminati Rothschilds. It is not about protecting Jewish people from discrimination, but using Jewish people to protect their own self interests."

Who are the Illuminati Rothschilds how can they be separated from other Jewish people? Never told.
Telling the truth about the massacres becomes "exploitation of that suffering". The Illuminatis who control _all_ states _also_ perform classic antisemitism-based 'Jewish behaviour' including ritual murder of stolen children:

Q: You mentioned satanic rituals and dark government projects, can you elaborate on what these children are being used for? Is there any proof other than the missing children in themselves that would support your theory?
David Icke: This is a big subject that needs a lot of explanation. I am currently compiling a book with an American woman who has a fantastic story to tell about this. Yes there is evidence, tons of it, if only people would bother to look.

and control of all media, Jews control the media (in addition to the world economy)

Q: Mind Control; Who is using it? How we prevent it? What is the ultimate motive? Why is it that many of us feel that it is impossible for another to invade or control minds?
David Icke: Billions of people have had their minds invaded by believing the official story of 9/11 when it is a monumental lie. What is mind control? It is getting someone to think what you want them to think and therefore do what you want them to do. The mass of the people are mind-controlled every day just by watching the TV news.

Icke's masterstroke is being able to gather together fairly solid antisemites who have a major problem with Jewish culture within Western society, alongside those who are generally anti-immigration and quite right-wing who feel racism and racist mass murder are just connected too much, as well as those who are fixated on banking and want to try sanitised rebellion.

I use all kinds of terms to describe these people, including Satanists, and I don't talk about reptilians that much really because there are many other aspects of the conspiracy to communicate. People have to come into this research at a point where they feel comfortable and I am happy to talk about the conspiracy on any level that people want. If they want to talk about the banking scam, the reptilian connection or the fact that our entire reality is an illusion, that's fine by me. The point is: take what you want and leave what you don't. The silly thing to do is dismiss it all because you can't get your head around one aspect of it.

Because the 'lizard' thing has been used so much and Icke doesn't any more talk about them, there's a tendenancy among some potential followers (drawn in by failure of NHS treatment, personal loss, banking, genetically modified food etc) to then see 'Ah Icke, he's purposefully mistreated by the media because they are Illuminati-controlled, well they would say they wouldn't they'.

But David Icke's main purpose is antisemitic. His website articles he chooses to publish testify pretty openly in terms of politics:

Hitler was a Godsend for Israel
If Hitler didn't exist, the Zionists would have had to create him. Maybe they did. Thanks to Hitler, 60,000 German Jews emigrated to Israel between 1933 and 1941.

White South Africa Was Conquered by Guilt?
The moral implications of Apartheid can be debated but the fact of the matter is this: The current black government of South Africa was handed a rising super power and ran it into the ground. How did this happen?

Germany: Still Under Control of Foreign Powers
Two days prior to the enactment of the German constitution on 23 May 1949, a Secret Treaty (Geheimer Staatsvertrag) was signed, which gave complete Allied control over electronic and print media, film, culture and education until the year 2099.


'A Deep-Rooted Hatred of the British': How Israelis 'Armed Junta' in Falklands Conflict
Begin had such a deep-rooted hatred of the British that the Jewish state covertly became the biggest supplier of military equipment to the Argentine military junta.

_Begin's "hatred of the British" has nothing to do with supplies to the junta, . Arguably France, US and Brazil are probably bigger suppliers - depending on what you measure - over the course of 1976-83. What Icke doesn't mention is how anti-semitic the Argentine parts of the junta were. How junior officers whilst using sticks in brutal sodomising torture against Jewish detainees who were resisting the junta, __laughed with anti-Jewish swear words and __played tapes of Hitler's speeches etc. Icke points solely to how anti-British an Israel Prime Minister was - presumably the reason he specifically sought to do pre-Camp David preliminaries with Egyptian aides in Leeds Castle, the reason why he considered Callaghan a friend etc etc._

British Death Camps In Germany After WWII _is a link to The Guardian's report on the post-war Bad Nenndorf detention centre for interrogating Nazis in 1945 - not a "death camp" in order to carry out mass death, remarkably civilised in fact when compared to detention centres in Britain's colonies in Malaya, India and Burma at around the same time._

Ernst Zundel's Words Proven True - See For Yourself
Ernst Zundel has been denounced as crazy for saying that Germany is not a legal sovereign state, that the United States maintains illegal control over the nation. Now, the former head of German intelligence corroborates EXACTLY what Zundel has been saying for years!
_Ernst Zundel is a long-time Holocaust conspiracist as well publisher for the first time of the classic 'The Hitler We Loved and Why', a sample here._

Nazi Jew Designed 'Final Solution'
a heretical Jewish Satanic cult, the Sabbatean Frankists, have plotted to exterminate the Jewish people since the 18th century. The hallmark of this cult is that they intermarry and impersonate members of other nations and religions, including Judaism. (Heydrich's background fits this profile. ) The Sabbatean-Frankists are the progenitors of the Illuminati, responsible for Communism, Fascism, Zionism, Socialism, Liberalism, Neo Conservatism and the NWO.


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## sihhi (Feb 27, 2013)

More from Icke's website:

Is the Saudi Royal Family Jewish?
In the 1960's the "Sawt Al Arab" Broadcasting Station in Cairo, Egypt, and the Yemen Broadcasting Station in Sana'a confirmed the Jewish Ancestry of the Saudi Family.

The Dreyfus Affair Was A Rothschild Psy-Op
The Dreyfus Affair was an elaborate psy-op. The real spy , Ferdinand Esterhazy, was in the pay of Baron Edmund de Rothschild. They deliberately implicated the Jew Dreyfus so that when he was finally vindicated, the conservative anti-Semitic anti-Rothschild party would be humiliated and discredited.

Did Hitler Blame All Jews For The Manipulation of Rothschild Zionist Bankers?
Respected historian Ralph Georg Reuth argues that Hitler may have had a real reason to hate the Jews. Noted for his breath of knowledge on World Wars I and II and its prominent figures... Ralf Georg Reuth recounts that Hitler blamed the Jews for both the collapse of the German economy and the Russian revolution.


Media Lying over Churchill's Crimes
Churchill is our hero because of his leadership in World War 2, but his immense crimes, notably the WW2 Bengali Holocaust, the 1943-1945 Bengal Famine in which Churchill murdered 6-7 million Indians, have been deleted from history by extraordinary Anglo-American and Zionist Holocaust Denial

Rothschild Zionist Nazi Collaboration
While the Zionists, with their total control of the media, succeeded to convince most of us that the Nazis were the bad guys, in reality the Zionist leadership and the Nazis were the best of friends.

Gross Fraud At Nuremberg - An Ugly History
_links to an article from antisemitic conspiracist Jeff Rense's website that begins_ "_The Nuremberg trials are a vast, vast subject. That the evidence used against the defendants was very dubious and obtained by even more dubious methods is, however, very clear_"

11 Million Germans were Murdered Post WWII
The book "Gruesome Harvest," should be on the mandatory highschool and college reading list for history and sociology. It is one of the few books that are available in English that address the murder of millions of non-combatant German civilians and German prisoners of war from 1944 to 1950 as a matter of deliberate allied policy

Hitlers Freedom from International Debt Slavery
Within two years, the unemployment problem had been solved, and Germany was back on its feet. It had a solid, stable currency, with no debt, and no inflation, at a time when millions of people in the United States and other Western countries (controlled by international bankers) were still out of work.
Within five years, Germany went from the poorest nation in Europe to the richest. Germany even managed to restore foreign trade, despite the international bankers' denial of foreign credit to Germany, and despite the global boycott by Jewish-owned industries.

Revealed: The Secret Report that Shows how the Nazis planned a Fourth Reich ...in the EU
The basis of this story of how the Nazis never disappeared, just changed jackboots for business suits, and how the European Union fits the Nazi vision of a fascist Europe, was detailed by David Icke in 1995 in his book, And The Truth Shall Set You Free.

Bormann Ran Hitler for the Illuminati
The second most powerful man in Nazi Germany, Martin Bormann, was a "Soviet" (i.e. Illuminati) agent who ensured the destruction of both Germany and European Jewry. Thus, he advanced two of the Illuminati's main goals: integrate Germany into a world government by annihilating its national, cultural and racial pretensions, and establish Israel as the Masonic banker's world capital by threatening European Jews with extermination.

Was Hitler a Secret Agent of The Rothschilds?
It is a matter of history that up until the First World War, the Rothschilds financed both sides of numerous conflicts, reaping rewards from the winners and the losers. Could it be that the Rothschilds did indeed have a hand in the First and Second World War? Could it be that the reason the Rothschilds tried to distance themselves from those wars was because their good name would not have survived had it been associated with the massive slaughter of millions of people.

Fredrik Toben Wins UK Fight Over Extradition to Germany
_a link to an article in The Australian explaining_ "Holocaust denier Fredrik Toben has won his legal battle with the German Government after it ended its attempt to extradite him from Britain. German prosecutors have withdrawn their appeal against a British court's refusal last month to extradite the controversial historian"
_Toben is Australia's premier believer in a Soviet-US falsification of Nazi liquidationist massacres all apparently a forgery "an official conspiracy theory" sustained today purely by "the Holocaust Racketeers, the corpse peddlers and the Shoah Business Merchants"._

The Myth Of German Culpability
One of the great mysteries of life is that despite the evidence to the contrary millions of otherwise intelligent people still believe that Germany was the all powerful aggressor during the 2nd World War. Nothing better than these myths illustrate the mind-bending power of propaganda. The provable facts suggest that Germany was the victim and not the perpetrator of naked neighboring aggression. The subsequent allied military triumph was followed by the triumph of the propagandists whose pressing need was to depict the victor nations as being the victim.

Robert Edmondson "Testified Against the Jews"
Our Zionist mind controllers have succeeded in eliminating almost all record of Robert Edmondson. Until today, there was no reference to him (or photo) on the Internet. Yet he was thrown into jail in 1936 and again in 1942 for producing hundreds of bulletins alerting his fellow Americans to an International conspiracy financed by the central bankers and consisting largely of Communist Jews. This conspiracy has grown into the New World Order.


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## sihhi (Feb 27, 2013)

Yet more from Icke's website 

The biggest secret of World War Two
Now Rothschild was a "black bag man" which means that any operation before it can go ahead, must be okayed by Home Office if its on the British mainland, and by the Foreign Office if its abroad, now if the Officials do not agree to fund it, they have to go for secret "black bag op funding" so Rothschild by secret funding and being a part, knew details of all and every operation. Litzi Friedman with her security file of over 70 pages, was unbelievably married to top British intelligence officer, Kim Philby, and yet no one suspected anything?'
_ie Jews and crypto-Jews (Communists) perverted by conspiracy British war aims in the war which were at the outset defensive over the Empire and offensive against the Soviet Union and hence commendable_

Illuminati Murdered At Least Two More Presidents
A curious but very credible Internet document called "The Mardi Gras Secrets" states that Illuminati agents poisoned and killed Presidents William Henry Harrison (1773-1841) and Zachary Taylor (1784-1850). They also poisoned James Buchanan in 1857 but he survived. All three were obstructing Illuminati- House of Rothschild plans for the US Civil War (1860-1865). The document also describes the Illuminati role in the murders of Abraham Lincoln and Senator Huey Long. We know they also killed Presidents Garfield, McKinley and Kennedy and probably Warren Harding and possibly FDR

Was Hitler Just a Pawn? 
subtitled (Of course he was) links to an article citing heavily from the 1902-3 Okhrana antisemitic forgery 'Jewish programme to conquer the world' a.k.a. Protocols of the Elders of Zion declaring _"Hitler was stage managed by the Illuminati, i.e. Masons organized around the Rothschild's desire for world tyranny to protect their monopoly on credit... In the Protocols, Lionel Rothschild, talks about his world control by virtue of his credit monopoly. ... there is a direct line between Hitler and the Rothschild agenda, through a long line of "cutouts" (agents). Some of these cutouts were "useful idiots" like Erich Ludendorff... Through the "secret masonry" the central bankers created both Communism and Nazism which, thanks to WWII, advanced the destruction of Western (Christian) civilization. The human race is fast becoming the Rothschilds' ant farm."_

almost ad nauseam his mid-1990s books are full of Illuminatis controlled Nazis stuff. It wasn't simply the other Generals (in part foreign-tied like Bormann etc.) that controlled and corrupted Hitler to allow excesses, but the Illuminati on another plane of existence.


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## frogwoman (Feb 28, 2013)

Yep sihhi see also the "khazar theory" another get out of anti-semitism free card coz they're not real jews, just people impersonating them. Pathetic.

Norman Finkelstein never endorsed such filth btw, I've read his book and it is about how the Israeli state misused the memory of the holocaust for internal consumption/propaganda and how a lot of holocaust survivors have never been compensated and are living in poverty. It's a fantastic book.


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## frogwoman (Feb 28, 2013)

yep, i've seen all that sort of shit before. it's proper filth this stuff.


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## frogwoman (Feb 28, 2013)

> Was Hitler a Secret Agent of The Rothschilds?
> It is a matter of history that up until the First World War, the Rothschilds financed both sides of numerous conflicts, reaping rewards from the winners and the losers. Could it be that the Rothschilds did indeed have a hand in the First and Second World War? Could it be that the reason the Rothschilds tried to distance themselves from those wars was because their good name would not have survived had it been associated with the massive slaughter of millions of people.


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## binka (Feb 28, 2013)

sihhi said:


> Nazi Jew Designed 'Final Solution'
> a heretical Jewish Satanic cult, the Sabbatean Frankists, have plotted to exterminate the Jewish people since the 18th century. The hallmark of this cult is that they intermarry and impersonate members of other nations and religions, including Judaism. (Heydrich's background fits this profile. ) The Sabbatean-Frankists are the progenitors of the Illuminati, responsible for Communism, Fascism, Zionism, Socialism, Liberalism, Neo Conservatism and the NWO.


 
thats one of my favourites. there was no holocaust of course but _if there was_ it was the jews that did it!


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## sihhi (Feb 28, 2013)

Now of course Icke is just one person. But where does that leave his supporters, those that are politically inclined are more antisemitic in their pronouncements than he is. His forum is pretty clear on the Holocaust denial aspect: "Did 6 million Jews die in the camps?

Yes 16.47%
No 83.53%"


The examples are there if you scan around. Someone asks in a thread about the Holocaust Education Trust making a film on the massacres with some England football players last month:
"i have noticed for some time there has been a lot of reference to Hitler and the whole genicide war thing going on .... i still dont know what it means but when they keep bringing things up it generally means they are trying to show us how to behave in certain circumstances"
To which the response is "They might be preparing for backlash against Jews when shit hits the fan. That's not to say Jews are causing all the problems, but rather that those causing all the problems (reincarnated Demons) are hiding behind Jews and wish to continue doing so if things don't go according to plan."

The controllers of the human race are _hiding behind Jews_. It's not the fault of the Jews, but they are they are _the means_ by which all problems are effected. It's insidious and Jazzz facilitates it all the time.
This month's thread on the Holocaust is only 4 pages long but ends on an 'awesome' quote that "the Holocaust oppresses the entire non-Jewish world"
There's a general feeling that parts of mankind are simply "natural slaves" if you look at the threads about Icke's marathon Wembley talk, the posters are enfuriated at how people are looking at their mobile phones, eating chemical-based junk-food (and noisily and greedily), not making way for people to move in and out of seats quickly enough: being stupid and common, even the semi-enlightened ones.
The bottom line: fact-free assertions on 9/11 facilitate Holocaust conspiracism. If 9/11 is a conspiracy and WTC7 was demolished without any of its residents knowing that it was rigged, then exaggerating the extent of the Holocaust becomes a cake-walk by comparison. The US (mixed mongrels) and the Soviets (communist multiculturalists) the superpower victors (also pro-Zionist vote to found Israel in 1947 etc etc), in order to weaken the strong mono-cultural Europe nation-state, build the case that militant nationalism ends in mass murder of its captive races. USA and USSR do this by exaggeration and deception because victors write history and everyone else is too starving to challenge them effectively. Holocaust conspiracism declares itself not racist (certainly not pro-Nazi Germany) or anti-racist (not pro-Soviet Union either), simply pro-truth, pro-human.
Look at the Committee for Open Debate on the Holocaust and it France chapter, it has a book list in addition to Holocaust nonsense also featuring one-time leftist journalist Webster Tarpley's _9/11 Synthetic Terrorism Made in USA_ and theology professor David Ray Griffin's _The New Pearl Harbor Disturbing Questions about the Bush Administration and 9/11._ These are the canon of well-written 9-11 conspiracism.It's there to bring in 9-11 conspiracists to antisemitic (hard-right) nationalism and to encourage antisemitic (hard-right) nationalists to plough the furrow of modern conspiracism, to suggest a slightly wider, slightly longer conspiracy - one since the birth in Europe of the post-absolutist state and the civic and economic emancipation of Jewish people. This conspiracy based around Jewish and Zionist power leads in perfectly with chauvinist or anti-immigration based social struggle.

The idea of an Armenian conspiracy published by Turkish apologists is brought to cajole the residual anti-Armenian chauvinists in France, as are dozens of leftist works to loop in those opposed to the IMF, against the persecution of Palestinians etc, as are more conventional domination by conspiratorial elites in banking, conspiratorial anti-Christianity groups, conspiratorial Anglo-American oath-taking secret societies for those who believe identity is being eroded in the gunge of multiculturalism.
The point is these other conspiracies can be easily made to work around the central conspiracy of 'Jewish supremacy via culture' dominating all bad aspects of life - war, poverty, diseases, AIDS, child abuse, media dumbing-down, sexual subjugation all have Jewish/Rothschild conspiracy based explanations. These are all real things - real problems and issues and meaningful social analysis is drawn into chauvinist or nationalist anti-activism.


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## sihhi (Feb 28, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> Yep sihhi see also the "khazar theory" another get out of anti-semitism free card coz they're not real jews, just people impersonating them. Pathetic.


Icke has that covered as well:
The Khazar Empire, Illuminati and The New World Order
More on the Khazars from Icke's pen



> The whole thing was orchestrated by the Rothschild dynasty to advance the goals of the Reptilians. Brave Jewish writers like Arthur Koestler have confirmed from their research that Jewish people have no historical claim to the land of Israel. They are not the biblical Hebrews and they are certainly not ‘Semites’. They don’t originate from biblical Israel, but from a Sumerian people who became known as the ‘Khazars’ in what became southern Russia and the Caucasus Mountains. Today, their lands are largely occupied by Georgia. This is why the so-called ‘Jewish nose’ is not a genetic trait of Israel, but the Caucasus. Alfred M. Lilienthal, a Jewish former American State Department official, called these facts ‘Israel’s Achilles heel’, because it destroys Zionist claims to the land of the biblical Hebrews. Historians believe the Khazars to be descendants of the Turkic tribe, known as the Huns or Hun, that invaded and savaged Europe from Asia around AD 450. ...
> Their home was not the Dead Sea, but the Caspian Sea, which became known as the `Khazar Sea’. This is the area targeted by the Reptilian hybrids today for its immense oil and gas reserves. Arthur Koestler writes that ‘a warrior nation of Turkish Jews must have seemed to the rabbis as strange as a circumcised unicorn’.


 

Note how Arthur Koestler becomes a "brave Jewish writer", otherwise he'd be a dirty Jewish vermin who raped Jill Foot, assistant to Hungarian Jew Bela Kun's domination over Budapest, subvertor of German pseudo-democracy in the KPD in the Weimar Era and spearhead of Zionism by service on a Jewish kibbutz in colonial Palestine, because he expounded the Hazal theory.





> The Khazars converted to Judaism (another religion of Babylon) in around AD 740, and they are the ancestors to Reptilian hybrid manipulators like the Rothschilds, Henry Kissinger, many of the ‘Neocons’ behind the Bush administration in the United States, and those who have controlled Israel since it was formed in 1948. ...
> In other books, I have highlighted the movement of the former Sumerians through the Caucasus Mountains under different names, like the Scythians, one of the names by which the Franks/Merovingians were known as they made their journey through the Caucasus. Now, we have further confirmation of the importance of the Caucasus region where some highly significant interbreeding occurred between bloodlines from Sumer and those from the Far East and China. This Caucasian—Chinese—Turkish combination produced very important ‘royal’ bloodlines from the Reptilian point of view. A writer on a Jewish website, using the name Im nin’alu, says:
> The Huns’ origin is directly connected with two well-known peoples of the ancient Middle East: the Sumerians and the Scythians, namely, in the kingdom founded by Nimrod. Even though they belong to the Japhetic stock and their most creditable ancestor is Magog, the Sumerian heritage has been kept by them more than by any other people, which implies that they are in fact the result of a mixed background.


 
So in a bizarre sort of way the interbreeding Jews the Chinesified, Turkified Jews are the bad Jews while the "non-Zionist" (ie Jews who don't point out that holocaust deniers are antisemitic) Jews are the good, pure Jews.
It's exactly the point Icke makes in _Children of the Matrix: How an Interdimensional Race has Controlled the World for Thousands of Years-and Still Does. _Something possesses these bad Jews to create a series of 'false religions' beginning with conventional Torah Judaism and Zoroastrianism (presumably all the way through to Bahaism) that means humankind completely loses sight of the fact that it once had super-energy powers itself and that it lives on an energy plance. They are good at creating and synthesising religions because they shift shape and form easily by marrying and re-marrying with different tribes effectively.
Icke's claim is that they have been blood-line penetrated by extra-terrestrials at some point before 3000BC to do so. They have been mentally programmed to dominate and control. Hence they ingratiate themselves with or even become European Kings and Queens, then begin a course of worldwide settlement and colonisation dominating the new colonies aswell. Basically, everyone with any sort of financial or military power that deals with foreign countries has bad Jewish "blood genealogy" through them. So that by the mid-nineteenth century they control the world sort of or not depending on how you read it, because they also create revolutionary ideas, democracy, socialism at the same time aswell as a controlled mirror or counterbalance to their overweaning absolutist power. All politics is a meaningless charade - a chasm of two balancing false sides. Most of the story moves by metaphor and innuendo, and is thus believable.
> Of course Finkelstein didn't, but it fits perfectly with the approach to magnify crimes committed by Jewish people and minimise those of others.


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## Jazzz (Feb 28, 2013)

Blagsta said:


> Stop hanging out with racists.


oh ffs. 

Reinvestigate 9/11 has a very clear "no holocaust denial" policy and has done for years. I have gone to some trouble to ringfence my particular circle from NK whose presence has done the movement quite some damage. I can't account for the video you have found, but I am nowhere in it.


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## Dandred (Feb 28, 2013)

So, did the UK court actually hear any evidence against the official narrative of 9/11?

Or was this just another bullshit thread title?


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## Serotonin (Feb 28, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> oh ffs.
> 
> Reinvestigate 9/11 has a very clear "no holocaust denial" policy and has done for years. I have gone to some trouble to ringfence my particular circle from NK whose presence has done the movement quite some damage. I can't account for the video you have found, but I am nowhere in it.


Don't you think there might be an issue with hanging about with groups that feel the need to state they have a no holocaust denial policy? It's like UKIP feeling they need to state that they are a non racist party.


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## beesonthewhatnow (Feb 28, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> oh ffs.
> 
> Reinvestigate 9/11 has a very clear "no holocaust denial" policy and has done for years. I have gone to some trouble to ringfence my particular circle from NK whose presence has done the movement quite some damage. I can't account for the video you have found, but I am nowhere in it.


Of course you can't account for it, to do so would require some actual critical thinking on your part.


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## Blagsta (Feb 28, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> oh ffs.
> 
> Reinvestigate 9/11 has a very clear "no holocaust denial" policy and has done for years. I have gone tonight some trouble to ringfence my particular circle from NK whose presence has done the movement quite some damage. I can't account for the video you have found, but I am nowhere in it.



I think Sihi has just done a fairly comprehensive job in showing up the racism in your beliefs. Any comment?


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## beesonthewhatnow (Feb 28, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> I have gone to some trouble to ringfence my particular circle from NK whose presence has done the movement quite some damage


So, do you finally accept he's a holocaust denier? You've defended him on here in the past, what changed your mind?


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## frogwoman (Feb 28, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> oh ffs.
> 
> Reinvestigate 9/11 has a very clear "no holocaust denial" policy and has done for years. I have gone to some trouble to ringfence my particular circle from NK whose presence has done the movement quite some damage. I can't account for the video you have found, but I am nowhere in it.


 
what happens if somebody breaches this policy?


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## butchersapron (Feb 28, 2013)

It's pretty clearly a policy of _keep it quiet_ rather than _we will have nothing to do with you_. Which is why you so often find this stuff _one step away _rather then being openly embraced - at least by this particular group . For example, on the first page of the reinvestigate 911 website we find listed as a key speaker at one of their events one Tony Gosling, the same Tony Gosling who hosted the Protocols of the Elders of Zion on his bildeburg site.

Also notice the way that jazzz only picks this single group from the myriad of groups as an example of good practice. I wonder why. A few of the links in the thread above explain exactly why.


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## frogwoman (Feb 28, 2013)

sihhi interesting about the argentine junta, I did not know about their anti-semitism although I was vaguely aware that there has been quite a bit of it over there especially after the 1998 economic crash. It's also worth remembering about this "zionists downplayed other genocides/other groups who died in the holocaust" stuff, that while the zionist movement and their focus on jewish exclusivity has not exactly helped recognition of this stuff _in the western world _in parts of eastern europe such as (until recently) romania, etc, where institutionalised anti-semitism and racism is still common, the governments of these places until recently (with eu accession for example) refused to speak about or admit their states role in the holocaust _at all_ far less do anything serious to tackle anti-semitism and especially not racism towards the roma.

The denial of the roma holocaust has less to do with jews than it does with extreme prejudice against them - prejudice that often goes hand in hand with anti-semitic prejudice


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## frogwoman (Feb 28, 2013)

Also worth stating the perhaps obvious fact that countries where homosexuality has until recently been illegal and where gay people do not have equal rights, are regularly tortured, have their homes raided etc, dont need "the zionists" to tell them not to commemorate the imprisonment and murder of homosexuals in WWII


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## frogwoman (Feb 28, 2013)

Also re: communists most governments (including the israeli) have turned the holocaust into a sort of depoliticised banal lesson on the dangers of prejudice (and of course combined a load of stuff about how great and how democratic "we" are) rather than emphasise the actual political content of fascism and hitler's views, how he saw bolshevism and judaism as part of the same thing, how fascism destroyed all independent forms of w/c organisation and how this enabled it to carry out the slaughter of the jews and other groups effectively etc

no conspiracy here anyway, just the normal workings of government


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## sihhi (Feb 28, 2013)

The Jazzz record - straight exchange from elsewhere:



frogwoman said:


> saying that anti-semitism is created by "elite jews" to control everyone is pretty much the definition of anti-semitism tho.


 


Jazzz said:


> No, someone who is anti-semitic doesn't like Jews (or semites, to be exact).





butchersapron said:


> It's a bloody good example of a modern day anti-semitic belief. The sort of belief held by an anti-semite.





Jazzz said:


> No it's not. The anti-semite will dislike ALL Jewry, on the basis of them being Jews and needing no other reason. He will not see the great majority of Jewish people as 'victims'. He will dislike people, and not simply policy.
> Again, I say that people who profess to love all mankind should be far more careful with their finger-pointing.





FridgeMagnet said:


> It's not anti-semitism if you only blame some Jews for conspiring to control the world?





Jazzz said:


> Absolutely not! How can you be said to be against the masses when you specifically blame the elite?





butchersapron said:


> Because you _connect_ the mass of jewry with the so-called elite due to the latter having reached their position of dominance, such that they have manipulated the entire humanity for millenia due to their special jewish powers, powers that derive from their being jewish and having malevolent intent due to being jewish. That's how the two are connected. By attrition of special characteristics and motivations due to being jewish - if it was for any other reason that this elite gained their power then why mention their jewishness? Their jewishness is mentioned because it how they got their power, through being jews. This connects them with general jewry.


No further Jazzz response at all, just further variations of 'Hey you, be careful about suggesting racist behaviour from non-racists is racist, that's really bad for anti-racism'
Jazz on Kollestrom:



Jazzz said:


> What I what I know about Nick K is that he is no anti-semite. He is a conspiracy theorist. I am placed in the awkward position of having to comment on someone that I know (although I knew nothing of his interest in WWII). Now if I didn't know him, and quite liked the fellow there'd be nothing making me defend him against this accusation, and for all I would know it could be true. However, I'd be a pretty crap bloke if I didn't speak up for people I know when they need it. And having spent some time with Nick K I've never seen the slightest hint of anti-semitism from him and that charge just doesn't fit with the person I know. What I 'don't have a problem with' is someone genuinely stating what they believe, however wrong that may be. What I very much DO have a problem with is people wanting laws to suppress challenging viewpoints, again, _however wrong_. I need hardly point out that that is the way that fascist regimes gain hold of a compliant populace.


 
Repeated promotion of "use all the conspiracies" smart antisemite David Icke:

David Icke on the Russell Brand show
David Icke on 'Swine Flu'
David Icke lecture @ Wembley Arena, October 2012

The hard-right conspiracist group Jazzz currently promotes has these people as part of its talk and now annual conference (based in Conway Hall or Friends Meeting House).

Nearly every named speaker is involved in some sorts of anti-semitism or Holocaust denial or promotion of other antisemites and Holocaust deniers

Cynthia McKinney
David Southwell
Lars Schall
Tony Gosling
Niels Harrit
Annie Machon


The partial exceptions are Dan Glazebrook, his main purpose is to attack and smear respected anti-conspiracists/sane people like Noam Chomsky who also happens to be Jewish and anti-Zionist (understanding Zionism as post-48 state behaviour) and against conspiracy theorising.
and John Bailey former union activist at Wapping who has basically abandoned union organisation and peddles an extreme Murdoch-based quasi conspiracist approach to the British press, happy to assert that _all_ newspapers are the same and unreliable - a useful figure to explain why the press don't take conspiracism seriously.
and Michael Ratner, strong supporter of Assange, US New Left pedigree, founder of Jewish Voice for Peace (a sort of US version of Jews for Justice for Palestine) who is an acceptable Jew specifically because he believes it is US Jewry's deficiencies that allow subjugation of Palestinians to continue, that US Jews have a particular, heavier duty _above that of other Americans or other people in general_ to declare themselves outright opponents of Israel: "I recall a conversation I had some years ago with the political artist Leon Golub, famous for his outsized oil paintings of torture carried out by American mercenaries in Central America. Leon told me that he had been invited to attend a panel to address what it meant to be a Jewish political artist. He said he had never thought of himself as a “Jewish political artist” but only as a “political artist.” Then he thought some more. Of the works of art he had made, none concerned Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians. And then he knew, at least for himself and probably many others: to be a “Jewish political artist” was to be an artist who avoided depicting the horrors inflicted on Palestinians. Of course, that is true for more than just artists. Many Jews who are very involved in human rights, ending poverty and war, and fighting for the underdog avoid criticism of Israel. They wrongly think that human rights are divisible; or that like ostriches they can hide their heads and pretend not to see what is clearly staring them in the face and makes them uncomfortable: the inhuman treatment of Palestinians. Some of our willful blindness and refusal to act is a result of our ambivalence about condemning the actions of a people that have experienced pervasive antisemitism and the holocaust. Some of our hesitation to act results from the condemnation and opprobrium anyone, but especially Jews, encounter with even mild criticisms of Israel. Organizations that take a position against Israeli actions subject themselves to a loss of funding from foundations and individuals. Few can afford to do so. As long as this silence continues, so will the U.S. billions in aid and arms that facilitates the killings of Palestinians. As long as this silence continues, more and more settlements will be built. As long as this silence continues, there will be more and more Gazas and more and more children murdered."

So that's 66% antisemites with 33% facilitators to provide and draw in people from different fields - those interested in African affairs (Glazebrook), the press (Bailey) and Wikileaks (Ratner). People like Niels Harrit do not bring in anyone interested in architecture (or chemistry for that matter) it's just a bow in the arrow for a quasi-scientific attack. There are those in the conspiracist movement who believe Harrit is an absurd liability with the nanochemistry line (WTF?) and it's far better to go for the Machon 'it was a terrorist assault but Mossad were the trainers, funders and organisers' line.


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## frogwoman (Feb 28, 2013)

> and Michael Ratner, strong supporter of Assange, US New Left pedigree, founder of Jewish Voice for Peace (a sort of US version of Jews for Justice for Palestine) who is an acceptable Jew specifically because he believes it is US Jewry's deficiencies that allow subjugation of Palestinians to continue, that US Jews have a particular, heavier duty _above that of other Americans or other people in general_ to declare themselves outright opponents of Israel: "I recall a conversation I had some years ago with the political artist Leon Golub, famous for his outsized oil paintings of torture carried out by American mercenaries in Central America. Leon told me that he had been invited to attend a panel to address what it meant to be a Jewish political artist. He said he had never thought of himself as a “Jewish political artist” but only as a “political artist.” Then he thought some more. Of the works of art he had made, none concerned Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians. And then he knew, at least for himself and probably many others: to be a “Jewish political artist” was to be an artist who avoided depicting the horrors inflicted on Palestinians. Of course, that is true for more than just artists. Many Jews who are very involved in human rights, ending poverty and war, and fighting for the underdog avoid criticism of Israel. They wrongly think that human rights are divisible; or that like ostriches they can hide their heads and pretend not to see what is clearly staring them in the face and makes them uncomfortable: the inhuman treatment of Palestinians. Some of our willful blindness and refusal to act is a result of our ambivalence about condemning the actions of a people that have experienced pervasive antisemitism and the holocaust. Some of our hesitation to act results from the condemnation and opprobrium anyone, but especially Jews, encounter with even mild criticisms of Israel. Organizations that take a position against Israeli actions subject themselves to a loss of funding from foundations and individuals. Few can afford to do so. As long as this silence continues, so will the U.S. billions in aid and arms that facilitates the killings of Palestinians. As long as this silence continues, more and more settlements will be built. As long as this silence continues, there will be more and more Gazas and more and more children murdered."


 
ugh i hate hate hate this shit. it's no different to "anti-germans" and the belief that some deficiency in german history and culture caused Nazism and how they basically now have a duty to hate themselves for all time.

do us zionist organisations have some sort of responsibility for influencing israeli policy decisions that push it in a certain direction? yes they do. do "jews" have some particular responsibility over it? no, and if you want to gain any sort of political support you have to stop saying this sort of shit.


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## ViolentPanda (Feb 28, 2013)

sihhi said:


> Gross Fraud At Nuremberg - An Ugly History
> _links to an article from antisemitic conspiracist Jeff Rense's website that begins_ "_The Nuremberg trials are a vast, vast subject. That the evidence used against the defendants was very dubious and obtained by even more dubious methods is, however, very clear_"


 
Rense being his usual obtuse self. No nation that participated at the Nuremberg trials has ever tried to pretend that some testimony from primary participants wasn't extracted under torture. Rense, however, does appear to be trying to pretend that much of that testimony wasn't independently-corroborated by people who weren't tortured.


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## butchersapron (Feb 28, 2013)

**oops wrong thread**


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## DotCommunist (Feb 28, 2013)

bit like this?


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## frogwoman (Feb 28, 2013)

It's pathetic. Not to mention that saying that "jews" should do this or that actually removes responsibility from heads of state and heads of industry etc - jewish or not - who ARE RESPONSIBLE for israel's actions and support and the amount of deaths caused by it.


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## Lemon Eddy (Feb 28, 2013)

sihhi said:


> The Jazzz record - straight exchange from elsewhere:


 
Thanks for all the leg work.


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## sihhi (Feb 28, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> ugh i hate hate hate this shit. it's no different to "anti-germans" and the belief that some deficiency in german history and culture caused Nazism and how they basically now have a duty to hate themselves for all time.
> 
> do us zionist organisations have some sort of responsibility for influencing israeli policy decisions that push it in a certain direction? yes they do. do "jews" have some particular responsibility over it? no, and if you want to gain any sort of political support you have to stop saying this sort of shit.


 
To gain political support amongst the conspiracist movement and the wider hard-right as someone Jewish it's _essential_ that you do this. Once you do this you will be used again and again as a deliberate foil.

So when someone asks 'Hang on Tony Gosling promotes insights from the Protocols why are there antisemites in this conference?', they immediately say 'how can they be antisemites, they are sharing a platform with someone Jewish from a fully Jewish family (Michael Ratner), don't go smearing people as racists who are not racists as racists'. Liberal saps will accept this, meaning the Quakers carry on hiring out their halls to these people.

Hence the conspiracist movement continues to grow so you get it infecting virtually all parts of social struggle, meaning they have to be incorporated and it is harder to isolate them because they have their fingers in so many pies.

It diverts and wrong-foots structural analyses and you end up in the absurd situation of those who are accused of libel first like Deborah Lipstadt being attacked for not reaching settlement with David Irving so that at least he would have to pay money to a charity, instead of the courts.

It allows the media to perform 'investigation' into issues simply by interviewing conspiracists _as if they were structural critics _of capitalism or militarism_._

It allows certain figures like Beppe "I would never trust somebody with a hooked nose and I will send him to make a long walk to Gaza with a Jew skullcap on his head" Grillo (or Michael Meacher for that matter) to promote themselves as _critics of the system_, and eventually it infects issues like the Palestinian problem and wider left and centre-left approaches to that issue.


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## Blagsta (Feb 28, 2013)

good work sihi


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## butchersapron (Feb 28, 2013)

Do click on the link for each of the people in sihhi's long post as well - will show you how far even the 'good ones' like Mckinney are now part of the game.


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## frogwoman (Feb 28, 2013)

sihhi said:


> To gain political support amongst the conspiracist movement and the wider hard-right as someone Jewish it's _essential_ that you do this. Once you do this you will be used again and again as a deliberate foil.
> 
> So when someone asks 'Hang on Tony Gosling promotes insights from the Protocols why are there antisemites in this conference?', they immediately say 'how can they be antisemites, they are sharing a platform with someone Jewish from a fully Jewish family (Michael Ratner), don't go smearing people as racists who are not racists as racists'. Liberal saps will accept this, meaning the Quakers carry on hiring out their halls to these people.
> 
> ...


 
i meant among ordinary jewish people rather than among these cunts


the other day somebody on the train the same age as me who was obviously high or drunk started ranting on to me about david icke

i've had a few mates of mine go on about this shit as well and i considered them to relatively clued up about politics, not the anti-semite stuff but the "illuminati" bollocks

maybe i should not be worried but this stuff seems to have a lot more support and people looking into it than most people on here seem to realise, you can buy this shit in bookshops etc. it certainly seems to have more visibility than the far-left

oh fuck,


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## sihhi (Feb 28, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> i meant among ordinary jewish people rather than among these cunts
> 
> the other day somebody on the train the same age as me who was obviously high or drunk started ranting on to me about david icke
> 
> ...


 
Recently one woman on a bus talking about the new world order promoting a film screening in Islington, when all of a sudden another passenger says that yes they've heard of it and are fans of Alex Jones on the internet, because of stuff about 9-11, how can 19 people just kill 3,000 people. I give it a go on the Alex Jones is quite a vicious anti-Mexican wants Britain to be more like USA, gives him a wider pool of people to exploit, met with 'he gives everything to what he says, he's not interested in money'.

Separately had someone at a meeting describing how the Tory-Lib Dem coalition are planning to depopulate the "ordinary people" by cuts for elderly care but maintenance of funds for family planning and contraception and no more child benefit- very coded but it's there - classic conspiracist material.

I don't know the answer to these people but leftist credibility is part of what they seek - because there are people whom they can reach from that wider territory:

Hence Jon Rees alongside David Pidcock keen proponent of the Zionist 1919 trial run Holo-hoax theory







and Jeremy Corbyn at a conference on the benefits of Islamic finance alongside antisemitic Moeen Yaseen associated with Muslims for 9/11 Truth, frequent poster on 7/7 and 9/11 truth newsgroups




> Global Vision 2000 and Uniting for Peace present  Transformation in the Muslim World Wednesday March 30 2011
> 
> The Jasmine revolutions continue to pave a path of sweeping change charging across the MENA (Middle East and North Africa) region. ...
> In the meeting we will go beyond the hype and ask the questions:
> ...


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## butchersapron (Feb 28, 2013)

This is who Rees now appears with:



> McKinney commented about the London conference in two postings on the Green Party's website in which she praised Mahathir ("one of my heroes") and also a man named David Pidcock, whom she called "my London friend." A British-born convert to Islam, Pidcock is the author of an extensive collection of conspiracy-laden anti-Semitic works, including the 1992 work Satanic Voices Ancient & Modern, which blames most of the world's current and ancient problems on a centuries-old conspiracy whose participants include Freemasons, Illuminati, "Luciferian Zionists," the Rockefeller family, big oil companies and the Council on Foreign Relations. The principal Internet outlet for Pidcock's writings is the website iamthewitness.com, which is devoted to fascist and anti-Semitic writings, prominently featuring The International Jew published by Henry Ford.
> 
> At the conference, McKinney was photographed with Pidcock and Michele Renouf, a former model and socialite who is considered one of Britain's leading Holocaust-denial activists.


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## butchersapron (Feb 28, 2013)

SO on one hand we get Galloway "I won't debate with Israelis" and on the other we get Rees: i will appear with anti-semites. And then the left represented by them two wonders why they have no wider social credibility and so the growth of the 'outside-left-and-right' groups happens.


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## frogwoman (Feb 28, 2013)

that zionist 1919 holocaust theory - that was actually from ONE newspaper article which appeared in a british newspaper saying about how russian jews were at risk of starvation and pogroms that were going on. and it was going on.

Exactly butchers.It's fucking sickening.

I didn't know about that jewish voice for peace guy in america sihhi, I ahve to say I am surprised by that, I knew they were slightly annoying american liberals but I didn't know they were that bad. One of the results of this of course is that jewish people disillusioned with zionism will end up looking into these groups and never wanting to have anything to do with anti-zionism again.

slightly depressing that i know so much about all this btw


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## frogwoman (Feb 28, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> This is who Rees now appears with:


 
oh my god that's disgusting. wasnt rees in the SWP leadership? And he's appearing alongside people who are defending that cunt mahathir mohammed etc?


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## sihhi (Feb 28, 2013)

Moeen Yasin is another figure wholly aligned with Jazzz's perspective on thermite

Only a couple of weeks ago he attended the STWC major conference at Friends Meeting House Euston
to push the conspiracist line, which is then faithfully reported by Tony Gosling

"from Global Vision 2000 Moheen Yaseen wrote:
At a parallel session focussing on Islamophobia today at the STWC’s conference, “Confronting the War ten years on” there was an amazing revelation and public exchange of views between Moeen Yaseen the Managing Director of the independent Islamic think tank Global Vision 2000 and John Rees leading Marxist atheist doyen of Stop the War Coalition. Moeen Yaseen stated that he had issues with the movement which still have not been addressed nor on the agenda. He stated that it was good that some speakers such as Salma Yaqoob was using the term GWOT- the Global War OF Terror which Global Vision 2000 had promoted. However, if we are going to deal with Islamophobia we need to challenge the official narrative which accuses Muslims and Islam of being mass murderers and religious sponsored terrorism which is the basis of the ongoing war. The latest research documents that thermite i.e. military grade nuclear material was used in bringing down the twin towers. We need to ask ourselves who would benefit and like to continue a global war between Islam and Christianity? He also stated that these big lies are being continuously peddled now in the Hollywood film ZERO DARK 30 which focusses on the assassination of Osama bin Laden on May 2 2011. Yet he had died over a decade ago according to the late Pakistani premier Benazir Bhutto."

Tony Gosling is part of the Icke network and is regularly linked and is a keen conspiracist Christian rightist via his Bristol Community Radio show, and so eager to promote a Muslim rightist approach as well.


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## Random (Feb 28, 2013)

What's the deal on Michael Moore and antisemitism?


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## frogwoman (Feb 28, 2013)

moore?

I didn't know he was an anti-semite, he did imply in one of his books that the saudi gov't could have known about 9/11 and bush etc did nothing about it though. This is all to depressing I might have to leave this for a while. Anyone want to know why people still support the Israeli gov't (or live in ignorance about what it's doing) look no further than this thread btw.


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## Random (Feb 28, 2013)

Sorry! Sihi said Michael _Meacher_


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## frogwoman (Feb 28, 2013)

I hope moore isn't, I know he is a liberal and all that but I did like Fahrenheit 9/11 and the other one


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## Random (Feb 28, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> I hope moore isn't, I know he is a liberal and all that but I did like Fahrenheit 9/11 and the other one


Yes, I was surprised by my own wrongness too....


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## Random (Feb 28, 2013)

sihhi said:


> Hence the conspiracist movement continues to grow so you get it infecting virtually all parts of social struggle, meaning they have to be incorporated and it is harder to isolate them because they have their fingers in so many pies.


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## frogwoman (Feb 28, 2013)

Jewish voice for peace might get a stinking letter from me later on tonight.


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## sihhi (Feb 28, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> oh my god that's disgusting. wasnt rees in the SWP leadership? And he's appearing alongside people who are defending that cunt mahathir mohammed etc?


 
That was McKinney defending Mahatir, although Gallowayist Yvonne Ridley did do a very soft interview with him for the Islam Channel where Mahatir essentially adopted a conspiracist worldview entirely unchallenged:

http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthre...ey-Interview-with-Mahathir-on-Islamchannel-tv

Yvonne Ridley: "Why do you think George Bush and Tony Blair are so afraid of Islam?" 

Mahathir Mohammad: "Well, it's very difficult to say, but they overlook their own faults, that they actually cause these people to act the way they did, by creating the State of Israel, by allowing Israel to occupy Palestinian land and do all kinds of things to the Palestinians, which angered people, and now because these people want to get back at them, people who cause all these problems - and that's Britain and the U.S. So they are afraid, because they are... They may be rich, they may be powerful, they may have atom bombs, but Americans and British are no longer safe anywhere in the world." 

Yvonne Ridley: "In what way? Are you talking individually? You know, passport holders?" 

Mahathir Mohammad: "They like to give travel advisories - not to go to this country, to that country - which means that they are not free anymore. They have to restrict themselves. They are not able to enjoy the benefits of their wealth, their ability to travel. Their jet planes and all that are useless because they can't go to certain countries because they fear being attacked. Of course, these people - they cannot attack their military. They attack... They will attack anybody else. That would be collateral for them. So, what is to prevent an American walking in a street in some country from being shot dead? So they live in a state of fear now." 
[...] 
It may not be a plane crashing into a building, but there would be other things that can happen. It may be against individuals, it may be against groups, against small towns, against buildings. With terrorists and their unconventional ways, you can never be certain where and how they would strike. So whereas America in the Second World War was totally free from attacks, it is no longer free from such attacks. And I think it is feeling very uncomfortable. 
[...] 
They may perhaps be able to put Al-Qaeda out of commission, but that does not mean that there will not be other groups. They have been killing so-called terrorist all these years, but there'll simply be more and more terrorists. In Iraq there were no terrorists before - now we have terrorists in Iraq. And now because of this attack on Lebanon, many, many new terrorists - so-called terrorists - are going to make that decision that, well, that if we cannot fight them with guns and bombs and airplanes and all that, we'll fight them by killing at random. That is what is going to happen.

Yvonne Ridley: "We can't finish with the war on terror until I ask about your views on Osama bin Laden, what do you think of him, and if you think he's still alive." 

Mahathir Mohammad: "I think he is still alive. He is the creation of the Americans, as everybody knows. You play with the devil, then of course, you get hurt. You created Osama bin Laden to serve your purpose, and this is something that the Americans have done very many times. Noriega was one of the people whom they created, and now they have arrested him and put him in jail for life. But Osama bin Laden has caught the imagination of a lot of people. And the present leader of Hizbullah, Nasrallah, he's not Osama bin Laden's man, but he fights in the same way, for the same reason. So there will be very many people whom we may call Osama bin Laden also - people who are very angry and who have no other means of fighting except the way Osama fought. He may be killed one day, but it's not going to stop the terrorist... the so-called terrorist attacks." 

Obviously Ridley didn't challenge these remarks:



"Jews 'invented socialism, communism, human rights and democracy' to avoid persecution and gain control of the most powerful countries. Mahathir added that '1.3 billion Muslims cannot be defeated by a few million Jews,' but he suggested using political and economic tactics instead of violence."
Now a staple at holocaust denial websites.


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## sihhi (Feb 28, 2013)

David Pidcock was the fellow speaker at the Conference Rees was a speaker at. Author in the early 1990s of the work _Satanic Voices Ancient & Modern_ subtitled _A Surfeit of Blasphemy Including The Rushdie Report From Edifice Complex to Occult Theocracy _still available in some Muslim bookstores which essentially claimed that "Zionists" were responsible for the Gulf War not Saddam, not the US refusal to discuss linkage but instead assemble a global war coalition and that Lincoln was assassinated for being a closet Muslim/ Advocate of Islamic finance.
View attachment 29550
Recently appeared on the Big Questions with Nicky Campbell as a Muslim voice on the death penalty  (in favour of it alongside physical punishments amputations etc)

Part of Pidcock's book attacks reports of rising antisemitism in the post-COMECON world:


"It is a pity that Peter Hillmore was not as observant or as impartial as Robert Wilton, seventeen years Russian correspondent for The Times, and an eye-witness of exceptional value of all the events of the Russian Revolution. [or more accurately the Zionist Revolution that took place in Russia] 
 It is a noteworthy fact that the English edition of Wilton’s book ‘The Last Days of the Romanovs,’ published in September 1920 by Thornton-Butterworth, did not contain the data obtained from the painstaking French study of the Russian Bolshevik Revolution based on official reports and original documents, confirming his own narrative. He says: “I have done all in my power to act as an impartial chronicler”. After Robert Wilton had written in 1920: “ The Jewish domination in Russia is supported by certain Russians... They are all screens or dummies behind which the Sverdlovs and the thousand and one Jews of Sovdepia continue their work of destruction,” his chances in English journalism were gone. It is a well-known fact that he died in straitened circumstances in January, 1925. So perhaps Peter Hillmore does know what he’s not talking about? If not, we will try to refresh his memory with the benefit of information from undoctored history and unsolicited Jewish testimony as to their part in originating revolutionary global subversion and Zionism’s policy of malevolent terror. ...

Before people like Peter Hillmore dismiss the evidence of people who have been on the receiving end of JudeoBolshevik-Zionism they should be sure of their facts and in turn, amplify and communicate these facts to enlighten the world outside, rather than playing for more time, when it is high time to put matters right. If he is still unconvinced then, hopefully, the following examples will help him and others to come to their senses. It is patently obvious to any unbiased, unprejudiced mind that Bolshevism was the culmination of the age old conspiracy of evil against all humanity, Jew and Gentile alike."



and updates the Protocols-are-the-plans-of-Herzl line:


Norman Jaques, M.P., Canadian House of Commons: “ Those who feel libelled by the Protocols have the most obvious remedy in the world; All they have to do is denounce the policy of them, instead of denying the authorship ... But when you come to read them, how can any reasonable man deny the truth of what is contained in them.” [July 9th 1943]  
In fact the most likely author of the Protocols is Theodor Herzl. The disclosure by Dr Marcus Ehrenpreis, Chief Rabbi of Sweden in 1924, adds further weight to identifying Herzl as the author of the “compressed” version of the Protocols. Quoted in ‘The Effective Judaism’, Rabbi Ehrenpreis states:“Long have I been well acquainted with the contents of the Protocols, indeed for many years before they were ever published in the Christian press. The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, were in point of fact not the original Protocols at all, but a compressed extract of the same. Of the 70 Elders of Zion, in the matter of origin and of the existence of the original Protocols, there are only ten men in the entire world who know.”  
These disclosures by Rabbi Ehrenpreis are altogether consistent with the evidence provided by Nesta H. Webster in her ‘Secret Societies and Subversive Movements’ published in the same year, 1924. ...
Rabbi Ehrenpreis says: “I participated with Dr. Herzl in the first Zionist Congress which was held in 1897. Herzl was the most prominent figure at the Jewish World Congress. Herzl foresaw, twenty years before we experienced them, the revolution which brought the Great War and he prepared us for that which was to happen. He foresaw the splitting up of Turkey [a proven 100% Judeo-Masonic Conspiracy], that England would obtain control of Palestine. We may expect important developments in the world.” [In 1962 David Ben Gurion made similar predictions]

To sum up then, the Protocols are either a mere plagiarism of Maurice Joly’s work, in which case the prophetic passages added by Nilus or another remain unexplained, or they are a revised edition of the plan communicated to Joly in 1864, brought up to date and supplemented so as to suit modern conditions by the continuers of the plot. An international circle of world revolutionaries working on the lines of the Illuminati, of which the existence has already been indicated, offers a perfectly possible alternative to the ‘Learned Elders of Zion.’ It would be easier, however to absolve the Jews from all suspicion of complicity if they and their friends had adopted a more straight forward course from the time the Protocols appeared.
 When some years ago a work of a similar kind was directed against the Jesuits, containing what purported to be a ‘Secret Plan’ of revolution closely resembling the Protocols [Revolution and War or Britain’s Peril and Her Secret Foes, by Vigilant, 1913], the Jesuites indulged in no invectives, made no appeal that the book should be burnt...
But from the moment the Protocols were published the Jews and their friends had recourse to every tortuous method of defence, brought pressure to bear on the publishers succeeded, in fact, in temporarily stopping the sales appealed to the Home Secretary to order their suppression, concocted one clinching refutation after another, all mutually exclusive of each other...

All his bracketing. The basic conclusion is:

The Qur’an, as usual, sets the record straight on such issues. Practically all secret societies and subversive movements derive their spiritual direction and inspiration from the genius of Lucifer/Satan. For they are one and the same, to follow one or the other is only the same as jumping out out of the frying pan into the fire.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 28, 2013)

sihhi said:


> That was McKinney defending Mahatir, although Gallowayist Yvonne Ridley did do a very soft interview with him for the Islam Channel where Mahatir essentially adopted a conspiracist worldview entirely unchallenged:
> 
> http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthre...ey-Interview-with-Mahathir-on-Islamchannel-tv
> 
> ...



please don't post little in future.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 28, 2013)

Random said:


> Yes, I was surprised by my own wrongness too....


and so are we all, constantly.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 28, 2013)

sihhi said:


> "Jews 'invented socialism, communism, human rights and democracy' to avoid persecution and gain control of the most powerful countries. Mahathir added that '1.3 billion Muslims cannot be defeated by a few million Jews,' but he suggested using political and economic tactics instead of violence."
> Now a staple at holocaust denial websites.




 

Suppose what im asking really is how worried should we be? I always thought it would be worth producing a booklet of some sort on the differences between Marxism and conspiracism. Dunno if it would make any difference tho.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 28, 2013)

sihhi said:


> Moeen Yasin is another figure wholly aligned with Jazzz's perspective on thermite
> 
> Only a couple of weeks ago he attended the STWC major conference at Friends Meeting House Euston
> to push the conspiracist line, which is then faithfully reported by Tony Gosling
> ...


 
Thermite is about as nuclear as my nipples.


----------



## fogbat (Feb 28, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Thermite is about as nuclear as my nipples.


Mildly radioactive?


----------



## Mungy (Feb 28, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Thermite is about as nuclear as my nipples.


can see the glow from your nipples from here


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 28, 2013)

Cheeky pair of reprobates!


----------



## redsquirrel (Feb 28, 2013)

Blagsta said:


> good work sihi


Aye, excellent.

A number of people complain about calling Jazzz an anti-semite but that post shows exactly why this shit has to be identified and stopped, otherwise it just spreads and infects all kinds of movements that people are involved in.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 28, 2013)

redsquirrel said:


> Aye, excellent.
> 
> A number of people complain about calling Jazzz an anti-semite but that post shows exactly why this shit has to be identified and stopped, otherwise it just spreads and infects all kinds of movements that people are involved in.


 
I don't think people realise how wqidespread this shit actually is.


----------



## sihhi (Feb 28, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> This is who Rees now appears with:


 
To be fair to John Rees, the conference with John Pidcock - a hardened, inveterate antisemite - was a one-off.

John Rees does however frequently do talks in favour of B.D.S. movement

Two weeks ago he was at this Middlesex Uni's Palestine Society (heavy domination by its Islamic Society compared to leftist figures) event in Hendon, Barnet.



*Lauren Booth* is a pro-Islam evangelist activist who bitterly denounced the Palestine Solidarity Campaign for being excessively pro-Israel and Zionist for disciplining a guy called Sami Ibrahim, a local PSC rep, who runs the Shoah - the Palestinian Holocaust that summarises a story about the US Zionist ADL group by picturing its Jewish chair as a baby post-circumcision, that just runs up trial haux-holocaust conspiracy videos without comment, that often defends hardened conspiracists such as former US Governor Jesse Venture. She also denounced it for not wanting to work with Gilad Atzmon in any form because he is repeated magnifier of conspiracy theories about Zionist power in all capitals of the non-Muslim world. This might be something to do with her solid support for Atzmon.

*Asghar Bukhari* is the founder and main force behind MPACUK. His worldview sometimes is close to the edge: 'The Muslims are born to die, to live like slaves, to be murdered, executed, jailed & demonised. We are not human, we are not even animals' occasionally just beyond it: 'We the Muslims are just like the black slave. Denied our freedom and killed after calling us savages' . Are we?
He himself gave donations and support to David Irving  during the Lipstadt case apparently without reading any of his work but instantly assuming "I was of the belief he was anti-Zionist, being smeared for nothing more then being anti-Zionist."

MPACUK itself represents the worst of a soft Western nationalist (freed of Zionist influence) anti-Israel approach to the Palestine issue.

Pressure @UEFAcom to move the European Under-21 Football Championship to England from warmongering Israel http://www.mpacuk.org/story/030213/move-european-under-21-football-championship-england-israel.html #BDS 

Isn't England a warmongering country? England is the heartland of a state that has invaded or bombed five separate countries in just over the past decade, and armed countless others to do even more from Africa to Georgia. (Only on their conspiracist world-view is Israel worse because Israel's victims are almost wholly Muslims, and Israel causes Britain to supply weapons to it, Israel's influence causes Britain to attack Afghanistan and Iraq etc, whilst other British equipment victims in Congo, on the Georgian-Russian border, in Papua can be forgotten because they are not Muslim). Lunacy.

Then it goes and compounds it tactical soft-headedness by equating the flag of Israel with that of the Nazi Third Reich via a meaningless photographs.

So John Rees is stuck in the middle of these speakers, apparently he understands well enough the politics of it all (source might be suspect): “Biggest recipient of military & civilian aid. Can by US military aid to [sic] use weapons and armaments. This is a REALLY a SPECIAL RELATIONSHIP. Israel would not exist without USA” 

in which case why not boycott the USA why ask for the USA to impose sanctions on Israel?






It is tactically risky, there's no freeze on military exports from the West to Israel, yet there's the claim 'BDS is essential, nothing else will do, it's the only path to sustainable non-chauvinism in the region'.


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## butchersapron (Feb 28, 2013)

Has Booth reverted?


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## frogwoman (Feb 28, 2013)

that redress.cc website is features on a news feed on the website of the PSC branch I used to be in.


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## frogwoman (Feb 28, 2013)

i know it's stupid and it doesnt really matter much but i get proper upset and angry by this stuff. as much as I find groups like JFJFP etc very annoying at times politically and tactically but I'm actually quite shocked that JVP's founder shared a platform with a known anti-semite and also that John Rees did so as well, I mean isn't he meant to be a marxist? Not that that means anything but wouldn't his time in the SWP have given him some background about marxism and why conspiracy theories are bullshit? I know I probably shouldn't be but I am especially shocked at them two.


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## frogwoman (Mar 1, 2013)

that lauren booth woman did convert and she's also cherie blair's half sister. how many of these celebrity anti-semites are tied into the "elite networks" themselves? afer reading that article by her about atzmon i felt physically sick.


----------



## Blagsta (Mar 1, 2013)

Jazzz has gone awfully quiet.


----------



## existentialist (Mar 1, 2013)

Blagsta said:


> Jazzz has gone awfully quiet.


Too much evidence for his liking, I expect...


----------



## mrs quoad (Mar 1, 2013)

Blagsta said:


> Jazzz has gone awfully quiet.


Jazzz, ennit!


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## Gingerman (Mar 1, 2013)

Wondered what happened to Booth,seemed to have made a living making the most out of her connection to Blair,ob lost that gig when he stepped down a few years ago,always found her shallower than a puddle.


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## Pickman's model (Mar 1, 2013)

Blagsta said:


> Jazzz has gone awfully quiet.


don't get lulled into a false sense of security.

he'll be back, with some hitherto unsuspected loon claims


----------



## barney_pig (Mar 1, 2013)

I once wrote to Jeremy Corbyn decrying his involvement in these meetings, but got no reply


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## frogwoman (Mar 1, 2013)

it really is a putrid fuckin cesspool these people are in. just looked at that "shoah" site, there's an article on there now about the jews and the catholic church which includes the following comment:

_It seems that if this Cardinal Andres Rodriguez Maradiaga of Honduras is elected Pope, then he will be subjected to the same process of beastification by Jewry as was the now retiring Pope Benedict (until he collapsed into a philo-semitic, Israel-adoring, ‘Holocaust’ guilt-riven heap of nervous twitches)._

there's another promotional plug from an obvious white supremacist:


http://wwwdotshoah.org.uk/2013/03/01/mark-dankofs-america-its-all-about-race-now/

No fuckin Platform for these cunts. John Rees should be ashamed of himself.


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 1, 2013)

Looking around it seems to be an attempt to bring the Islamist far right and the American/British anti-semitic far right together. "WAKE UP AMERICA" etc.

http://wwwdotshoahdotorg.uk/2013/02/23/58-rise-in-anti-semitic-attacks-in-france-in-12′/

*



*
*ed note–one of the benefits to mankind of what came to be called ‘the scientific process’was the awareness of the law of cause and effect. For example, diseases that were oftenfatal were cured when careful, scientific, rational study–leaving out superstition or previous explanations that explained nothing–were applied.*
*Now, if indeed ‘anti-Semitism’ is a ‘disease’ as organized Jewish groups such as the ADLand Simon Wiesenthal Center claim, than the question that a rational society must ask is this–’WHAT CAUSES IT?’*
*And please,don’t tell us it is envy, irrational hatred or any of the other superstitionsthat have been bantered about now for centuries. What is it about Jewish behavior–collective or individual–that has led to this ‘oldest of hatreds’ as we in the Gentile world have heard it described?*
*Until this question is answered, the world will continue to be shackled by organized Jewish interests who care not a wit about finding out what the true cause of opposition to them has been throughout the last 4,000 years.*
*jpost.com*

This note attached to an article about an increase in violent anti-semitic attacks and this photo.

Proper scum.


----------



## 8den (Mar 18, 2013)

> Last year, documentary filmmaker Tony Rooke decided he’d had enough of the mainstream media’s repression of what he considered the irrefutable case for the existence of a 9/11 conspiracy, and in an ingenious illustration of the old adage about using an enemy’s own weight and strength against them, had refused to pay his TV license on the grandiose grounds of Article 3, Section 15 of the UK 2000 Terrorism Act, which states that it is an offence to provide funds if there is a _reasonable cause to suspect that those funds may be used for the purposes of terrorism_ (the TV License is a compulsory fee for all UK TV owners and pays for the BBC).
> 
> “Mr Rooke’s claim is that the BBC has withheld scientific evidence that demonstrates that the official version of 9/11 is not possible,” explained a press release circulated by the AE911Truth UK Action Group, “and that the BBC has actively attempted to discredit those people attempting to bring this evidence to the public.” As part of his defense, it added, Rooke had secured three hours to present his case, and had assembled a “formidable team” of defense witnesses, including Professor Niels Harrit (Professor of Chemistry at the University of Copenhagen) and former intelligence analyst Tony Farrell. “Evidence such as this,” it concluded, “has rarely, if ever, been seen in any court of law…”
> 
> ...


http://dangerousminds.net/comments/uk_9_11_truthers_get_their_day_in_court_well_kinda


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 18, 2013)




----------



## Jazzz (Mar 18, 2013)

Blagsta said:


> Jazzz has gone awfully quiet.


There's a point where it gets too tiresome to correct rubbish. I have as much interest in arguing about race as I have in seeing it. Cynthia McKinney being antisemitic! ffs.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 18, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> There's a point where it gets too tiresome to correct rubbish. Cynthia McKinney being antisemitic! ffs.


Of course, you can show this claim. You will remember your last problems with claiming to be able to read  Mckinney's mind won't you? Oh. No, you won't.


----------



## Jazzz (Mar 18, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Of course, you can show this claim. You will remember your last problems with claiming to be able to read Mckinney's mind won't you? Oh. No, you won't.


It's not my claim.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 18, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> There's a point where it gets too tiresome to correct rubbish. I have as much interest in arguing about race as I have in seeing it. Cynthia McKinney being antisemitic! ffs.


 
How's about sorting out that last 25 threads you ran away from after getting your arse handed to you?

Bit of a 'corrections' backlog forming there...


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 18, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> It's not my claim.


The claim:

"Cynthia McKinney being antisemitic!"

_is entirely yours. _


----------



## Blagsta (Mar 18, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> There's a point where it gets too tiresome to correct rubbish. I have as much interest in arguing about race as I have in seeing it. Cynthia McKinney being antisemitic! ffs.


 
So what do you make of her anti-semitic friends then?  Is it like you and your anti-semitic friends?


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 18, 2013)

Three week gap this time.


----------



## Jazzz (Mar 18, 2013)

8ball said:


> How's about sorting out that last 25 threads you ran away from after getting your arse handed to you?


How curious that you think matters which you believe were fully sorted out should be further discussed.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 18, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> It's not my claim.


The people who she was with - those people, they are only ever a few steps away from you. Why?  

Also, if you could deal with the point about her as well. ta.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 18, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> How curious that you think matters which you believe were fully sorted out should be further discussed.


The most bizarre sentence (and i should know, i've done a few) i've ever seen on here.


----------



## Blagsta (Mar 18, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> The most bizarre sentence (and i should know) i've ever seen on here.


 
A rare moment of self reflection from butchers there Jazzz!  Grasp on tight!


----------



## 8ball (Mar 18, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> How curious that you think matters which you believe were fully sorted out should be further discussed.


 
Tell you what then - let's not do that.

Let's not do any more 9/11.
Any more vaccine shite.
Any more gold/silver/colloidal horseshite cscams.
Any more Jewish banker shit.
Any more of kind of thinly-veiled anti-Semite shite of any stripe.
Let's do more of any of that shit ever fucking again.

Deal?


----------



## Jazzz (Mar 18, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> The claim:
> 
> "Cynthia McKinney being antisemitic!"
> 
> _is entirely yours. _


No that is entirely incorrect. You know that too, as I am huge McKinney fan. I have no obligation to discuss anything with someone who is trying to be so sneaky. You should aspire to being fair in debate. How can you think you have a righteous position when you need to resort to rubbish like that? I am answering no further of your questions, or addressing your points.

TAKE NOTICE butchersapron that your attempts to paint my position as being this or that are without merit and I have no need to correct you.


----------



## Blagsta (Mar 18, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> No that is entirely incorrect. You know that too, as I am huge McKinney fan. I have no obligation to discuss anything with someone who is trying to be so sneaky. You should aspire to being fair in debate. How can you think you have a righteous position when you need to resort to rubbish like that? I am answering no further of your questions, or addressing your points.
> 
> TAKE NOTICE butchersapron that your attempts to paint my position as being this or that are without merit and I have no need to correct you.


 
Yeah, TAKE NOTICE.

That'll tell him!


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 18, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> No that is entirely incorrect. You know that too, as I am huge McKinney fan. I have no obligation to discuss anything with someone who is trying to be so sneaky. You should aspire to being fair in debate. How can you think you have a righteous position when you need to resort to rubbish like that? I am answering no further of your questions, or addressing your points.
> 
> TAKE NOTICE butchersapron that your attempts to paint my position as being this or that are without merit and I have no need to correct you.


It's entirely correct. Why can't you find the post saying "Cynthia McKinney being antisemitic!"? Because, and you KNOW THIS, you made it up. I'm being righteous above all the nations here. You, you ain't.


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## butchersapron (Mar 18, 2013)

Blagsta said:


> Yeah, TAKE NOTICE.
> 
> That'll tell him!


Is it FREEMAN thing?


----------



## Blagsta (Mar 18, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Is it FREEMAN thing?


 
fuck knows, sounds like the sort of magical thinking they'd come out with though


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 18, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> No that is entirely incorrect. *You know that too, as I am huge McKinney fan*. I have no obligation to discuss anything with someone who is trying to be so sneaky. You should aspire to being fair in debate. How can you think you have a righteous position when you need to resort to rubbish like that? I am answering no further of your questions, or addressing your points.
> 
> TAKE NOTICE butchersapron that your attempts to paint my position as being this or that are without merit and I have no need to correct you.


 
What sort of logic leads to the bolded? What logical step is there from a to b?


----------



## 8den (Mar 18, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> There's a point where it gets too tiresome to correct rubbish. I have as much interest in arguing about race as I have in seeing it. Cynthia McKinney being antisemitic! ffs.


 
.


----------



## sihhi (Mar 18, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> No that is entirely incorrect. You know that too, as I am huge McKinney fan. I have no obligation to discuss anything with someone who is trying to be so sneaky. You should aspire to being fair in debate. How can you think you have a righteous position when you need to resort to rubbish like that? I am answering no further of your questions, or addressing your points.
> 
> TAKE NOTICE butchersapron that your attempts to paint my position as being this or that are without merit and I have no need to correct you.


 
You are essentially fraudulent and leave a snail trail of hard-right filth.

In 2012, Cynthia McKinney attended (notorious antisemite Mahathir Mohamad's) Perdana Global Peace Foundation's _9/11 Revisted: Seeking the Truth_ conference in Malaysia (opened by Mahatir). What was her speech on? The Jewish lobby in all Western (but not Eastern) countries.

Cynthia McKinney and friends from the SPLC article (not a single refutation from you).








Day job of the friend on the left








Day job of the friend to the right for the vile BPP






Do you want more examples of Cynthia McKinney assisting antisemitism whilst promoting truthist conspiracism? She's a key figure for you on a site like this because she was a Congressional Black Caucus member Green Party etc ie leftie image, you want her to be defended to retain some purpose to your posts, but she won't be defended/


----------



## Yelkcub (Mar 18, 2013)

Fuck your soup Jazzz


----------



## 8den (Mar 18, 2013)

I am reminded of his claims that William Rodriguez, wouldn't hang around with racists. Jazzz shut the fuck up when it was shown that Rodriguez not only was good friends with Chris Boyln (another Holocaust Denier) but that Rodriguez spoke at a event with a former member of the Waffen SS.

Fucktard.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 18, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> How curious that you think matters which you believe were fully sorted out should be further discussed.


None of the threads you recently started contain 'matters which were fully sorted'. You ran away from the discussions.


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 18, 2013)

Jazzz do you understand why people get so upset at all this? Being happy to speak with and pal up to anti-semites, publically, while speaking about the same things they're speaking about, and not challenging their views, it makes them complicit in the promotion of anti-semitism (and not just anti-semitism, it's very rare that you get somebody on a political level who just hates jews and that's it, they're usually homophobic, racist, sexist etc as well) and sometimes worse stuff as well, like actual violence, could be violence against random minorities or it could be violence committed by a state.

nobody is saying these people are themselves anti-semitic but being happy to appear in public with and in agreement with hardcore anti-semites and others on the extreme right means their political judgement is extremely dodgy at best.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 18, 2013)

Yelkcub said:


> Fuck your soup Jazzz


I want to like this a lot


----------



## Blagsta (Mar 18, 2013)

8den said:


> I am reminded of his claims that William Rodriguez, wouldn't hang around with racists. Jazzz shut the fuck up when it was shown that Rodriguez not only was good friends with Chris Boyln (another Holocaust Denier) but that Rodriguez spoke at a event with a former member of the Waffen SS.
> 
> Fucktard.



Its funny innit how almost everyone Jazzz respects happens to hang out with Holocaust deniers. Mere coincidence of course.


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 18, 2013)

I get upset about this because these are people I know, they aren't bankers or goblin-like characters sitting in caves and counting their money, these are people i know, done stuff with, worshipped with etc. the idea of the "number of rich jews" being criticised by people who are making a living out of preaching hate and selling gullible idiots their colloidal gold/silver/platinum/earthing/electricity scams is actually fucking sickening, as is jewish conspiracies being blamed by people who _themselves_ held state power and have blood on their hands like that twat mathir mohammed.

you don't seem to get this at all.


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 18, 2013)

Did I mention how most of these websites are usually full of homophobic filth as well? the gay agenda being a plot by the jews or just being unnatural, or being a conspiracy all olf its own.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 18, 2013)

Holocaust denial should be a crime, in my opinion. How can such a horrific experience of so many be denied?


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 18, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> Did I mention how most of these websites are usually full of homophobic filth as well? the gay agenda being a plot by the jews or just being unnatural, or being a conspiracy all olf its own.


Homophobia really pushes my buttons. Two members of my family are gay.


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 18, 2013)

No don't make it a crime. I'm uneasy about "state bans" on things as it could so easily be used against other stuff,i would hope anti-fascists disrupt their meetings to such an extent that they can't hold the meetings any more (although i don't know if enough people are around to do this any more ) and there should certainly be absolutely no tolerance on the "left" for anyone who knowingly appears on a platform with known anti-semites and holocaust deniers. If you ask me a lot of this stuff shoudl be viwed in the same light as fascism, I was shocked to see organised 9/11 conspiracy nutters on the october 20th demo when if you ask my opinion they should have been excluded in the same manner you would exclude fash, because in my opinion that is usually what they are.

that's not to say that everyone who believes this stuff has racist views but this stuff is all the more dangerous for that imo


----------



## sihhi (Mar 18, 2013)

Jazzz (assuming it's the same one 'Dr Jazzz') being mates with Cynthia McKinney and Annie Machon:










> The Saturday was the main day of events, starting with a light lunch for  international activists at Les Halles des Oliviers at La Bellevilloise, with impromptu music from Dr Jazzz.  In the afternoon we convened for a planning session, followed in the evening by a public meeting.  Debora ably hosted the event with Cynthia McKinney, Giulietto Chiesa and Niels Harrit and myself as the speakers, discussing different aspects of government cover-ups and lack of accountability, all drawn from our own experiences.


 






Here is Jazzz's organisation Reinvestigate 9-11 shamelessly using Palestinian suffering for their vile purposes in a Dalston venue.
Watch for the poem performance at 1'50 onwards.



This is part of their "soup" - people who are wholly very sinister  The People's United Community TPUC,  Zeitgeist Movement,Paradigm Shift TV] or people who just don't check out who they're dealing with:

http://www.facebook.com/events/133761466668045/

The Mahogany Blog, Happenstance Radio, Conscious FM, Positive TV, BBC5.tv, Run Riot, Paradigm Shift TV, Media Roots, Jungle Drums Magazine, Guestlist Network Magazine, We Are Change UK, Make Wars History, Reinvestigate 9/11 Campaign, The Zeitgeist Movement UK [Jacques Fresco technological anti-(Jewish) currency types], 9/11 Truth Bristol, 9/11 London Truth Action, One Taste, Reggae Roast, Humanitad, Amaru Global Hemp Solutions, Naturewise, Kew Ecovillage, The Forum (Secret Garden Party), Satsang Collective, Antic Establishment, Movimientos Latin American Network [Music Event organisers], The Hackney Globetrotter, 12 Tone Collective, Tree House Cafe, United Diversity, Little Blue Ball Records, Stranger Than Paradise, Small World, Urgent Union, The People's United Community [Freeman-On-the-Land organisation]


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 18, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> No don't make it a crime. I'm uneasy about "state bans" on things as it could so easily be used against other stuff,i would hope anti-fascists disrupt their meetings to such an extent that they can't hold the meetings any more (although i don't know if enough people are around to do this any more ) and there should certainly be absolutely no tolerance on the "left" for anyone who knowingly appears on a platform with known anti-semites and holocaust deniers. If you ask me a lot of this stuff shoudl be viwed in the same light as fascism, I was shocked to see organised 9/11 conspiracy nutters on the october 20th demo when if you ask my opinion they should have been excluded in the same manner you would exclude fash, because in my opinion that is usually what they are.
> 
> that's not to say that everyone who believes this stuff has racist views but this stuff is all the more dangerous for that imo


I find it all so insidious the way that fascist agendas become intertwined with anti-semitism, racism, sexism, homophobia etc. 

Isn't holocaust denial outlawed somewhere in Europe? France? I'll go check...


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 18, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> I find it all so insidious the way that fascist agendas become intertwined with anti-semitism, racism, sexism, homophobia etc.
> 
> Isn't holocaust denial outlawed somewhere in Europe? France? I'll go check...


 
It is aye, it's banned in France and Germany. I'm not sure that's the answer though, the problem is when you ban holocaust denial that it becomes easier for them to say "well there must be something in it then" and it becomes easier for them to blame on a Jewish conspiracy. It does make me sick that people would deny something that lots of people I know were affected by, but banning it would probably make the problem of anti-semitism worse because they could point to it and go "look you can't even say this without breaking the law".


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## equationgirl (Mar 18, 2013)

It's illegal in many European countries and Israel, many of which have sites where genocide occurred - 17 countries in total.

As for a Europe-wide law:


> Full implementation was blocked by the United Kingdom and the Nordic countries because of the need to balance the restrictions on voicing racist opinions against the freedom of expression.[50] As a result a compromise has been reached within the EU and while the EU has not prohibited Holocaust denial outright, a maximum term of three years in jail is optionally available to all member nations for "denying or grossly trivialising crimes of genocide, crimes against humanity and war crimes."[51][52]
> The EU extradition policy regarding Holocaust denial was tested in the UK during the 2008 failed extradition case brought against the suspected Holocaust denier Frederick Toben[53] by the German government. As there is no specific crime of Holocaust denial in the UK, the German government had applied for Toben's extradition for racial and xenophobic crimes. Toben's extradition was refused by the Westminster Magistrates' Court, and the German government withdrew its appeal to the High Court.


 
From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_against_Holocaust_denial


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## equationgirl (Mar 18, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> It is aye, it's banned in France and Germany. I'm not sure that's the answer though, the problem is when you ban holocaust denial that it becomes easier for them to say "well there must be something in it then" and it becomes easier for them to blame on a Jewish conspiracy. It does make me sick that people would deny something that lots of people I know were affected by, but banning it would probably make the problem of anti-semitism worse because they could point to it and go "look you can't even say this without breaking the law".


It is difficult to balance it against freedom of speech. It's why the UK and Nordic countries blocked implementation of a Europe-wide law. Incidently, the Czech Republic's law goes further and denial of any atroticity perpetrated by the communists is outlawed.


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## TruXta (Mar 18, 2013)

I disagree with a ban. No way do we give these fuckers any more martyr status.


----------



## editor (Mar 18, 2013)

sihhi said:


> The Mahogany Blog, Happenstance Radio, Conscious FM, Positive TV, BBC5.tv, Run Riot, Paradigm Shift TV, Media Roots, Jungle Drums Magazine, Guestlist Network Magazine, We Are Change UK, Make Wars History, Reinvestigate 9/11 Campaign, The Zeitgeist Movement UK [Jacques Fresco technological anti-(Jewish) currency types], 9/11 Truth Bristol, 9/11 London Truth Action, One Taste, Reggae Roast, Humanitad, Amaru Global Hemp Solutions, Naturewise, Kew Ecovillage, The Forum (Secret Garden Party), Satsang Collective, Antic Establishment, Movimientos Latin American Network [Music Event organisers], The Hackney Globetrotter, 12 Tone Collective, Tree House Cafe, United Diversity, Little Blue Ball Records, Stranger Than Paradise, Small World, Urgent Union, The People's United Community [Freeman-On-the-Land organisation]


The venues below are listed as "supporting venues" but I wonder how many have just taken a booking for events and aren't actually 'supporting' the loons' nutty beliefs in any way at all.



> SUPPORTING VENUES
> Notting Hill Arts Club, Vibe Bar, Hootenany, 93 Feet East, Inspiral Lounge, Brixton Jamm, Arcola Theatre, Rio Cinema, Zigfried's, Three Blind Mice, Off Broadway, Cordy House, Child of the Jago, Junction Bar, The Old Boy's Club, Pogo Cafe, Junction Rooms, Trolley Gallery, Visions Video Bar, 512 Bar, The George Tavern, The Pattern Market, Cordy House, Coffee Plant, Tina We Salute You, The Bird's Nest, Juno Bar.


And what does this mean?


> OTHER SUPPORTING ARTISTS
> Beardyman, Rodney P, David J, Congo Natty, Portico Quartet, MC Xander, Excentral Tempest


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## frogwoman (Mar 18, 2013)

TruXta said:


> I disagree with a ban. No way do we give these fuckers any more martyr status.


 
That's the thing, it would just make martyrs out of them and personally I don't want to give anyone a reason to even suspect that this bullshit might be true, it wouldn't stop them believing it and promoting it behind closed doors either, by bringing the issue into the public eye more it might even result in an increase in openly held anti-semitic views and right now this shit is usually pretty marginal. If it was banned it would just become part of their thing, more than it is already "look you cant even say this without going to jail, you can say other stuff and get away with it" and they would find ways to say it without saying it.

Also in France where holocaust denial is banned, I think they've got much bigger problems with anti-semitism (and racism in general) than we do in the UK, there have been murders, people been violently attacked quite regularly etc. It's not a result of the ban obviously but I don't think it has helped.

Besides think about how insufferable they would get, "help help i'm being repressed!" etc. Not having it


----------



## existentialist (Mar 18, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Is it FREEMAN thing?


I think it's quasi legal thing, probably elevated in the conspiraloon mind to a kind of Scientologyesque "tone 40", that you simply cannot disobey.


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## el-ahrairah (Mar 18, 2013)

TAKE NOTICE


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## sihhi (Mar 18, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> There's a point where it gets too tiresome to correct rubbish. I have as much interest in arguing about race as I have in seeing it. Cynthia McKinney being antisemitic! ffs.


 

If people want more on Cynthia McKinney here is some including the Mahatir's advisor connection. Mahatir who said all this:




> "It cannot be that there is no other way. 1.3 billion Muslims cannot be defeated by a few million Jews. There must be a way. And we can only find a way if we stop to think, to assess our weaknesses and our strength, to plan, to strategise and then to counter attack. [...]
> We are actually very strong. 1.3 billion people cannot be simply wiped out. The Europeans killed 6 million Jews out of 12 million. But today the Jews rule this world by proxy. They get others to fight and die for them. [...] The enemy will probably welcome these proposals and we will conclude that the promoters are working for the enemy. But think. We are up against a people who think. They survived 2000 years of pogroms not by hitting back, but by thinking. They invented and successfully promoted Socialism, Communism, human rights and democracy so that persecuting them would appear to be wrong, so they may enjoy equal rights with others. With these they have now gained control of the most powerful countries and they, this tiny community, have become a world power."


 
This (orated by notorious identity-swaping antisemite Israel Shamir) is what McKinney posts supportingly on her facebook page:



> The Jewish state (It is not a Jewish state. It is a Zionist state. S1000+) focuses Jewish power all over the world into action. Without a Jewish state, this power would disperse; it would remain local, it would remain chaotic, probably it would be subdued by the forces of assimilation. Israel focuses these chaotic forces and concentrates them into action. This action is against Islam. Not only against Islam, but Dar ul Islam (the Islamic world) is a prime target. In the US , the Jewish Neocons led their country into a crusade against Iraq and Afghanistan ; now they are spearheading the push against Iran. They have formed a powerful front against President Obama and have turned him into a laughing stock after he uttered a few words of wisdom about Palestine .
> 
> In Europe , if you inspect the coffers of anti-Muslim neo-Nazi groups, you'll find that they thrive on Jewish support. In Russia, Jewish nationalists and Zionists try to rally the Russians against their Muslim brethren. Sometimes they do it under cover of the Russian Church , or of Russian nationalism. I wrote about this recently, as I had discovered that the most fervently anti-Muslim forces in Russia are organised by crypto-Zionists. *Even if a Palestinian state were to be established and recognised, it wouldn’t stop Israeli attempts to undermine its neighbours, to bomb Iran , to sow the seeds of discord from Russia to France, from Turkey to India.* Israel's too powerful intelligence services would keep meddling. Neither would it neutralise the armed forces of Israel


 
Here is McKinney with her antisemitic friend Shamir:






We should also remember that Shamir is also fairly sexist:




> There is an understanding between the holders of power that feminised men are easier to control. Unmanning men is a linchpin in the reprogramming of mankind into an obedient herd, because strong men are unpredictable. Strong men are prone to rebellion, ready for sacrifice and primed for action. It is no coincidence that the enemies of Empire are all masculine males, be they Qaddafi, Castro, Chavez, Lukashenko, Putin – or Julian Assange. It appears the men have been targeted for elimination; the working ants need no sex.
> The feminist agenda became the easiest way to lock the man up, as we learned from the DSK case. Dominique Strauss Kahn lost his coveted job at the helm of the IMF, and this powerful position passed to a woman who is not likely to jeopardise the US dollar supremacy.


 


> Did DSK’s advances constitute “harassment”? Perhaps, but so what? I am continuously harassed by banks that send me offers of credit – are these less damaging to my psyche than an offer to frolic in the hay? Is a business proposition less annoying than an amorous one? These women simply refused his advances, just as I refuse the banks – and yet I do not resort to the courts, whereas they have sought both compensation and revenge. Might we not just as well sue the Zuleika Dobsons of this world for the sexual power they hold over their unwilling thralls? Must we castrate our men, cover our women, or erect separation walls like the ones on Indian trains? The attacks on Assange, DSK and Qaddafi are all part and parcel of the campaign to unman humanity. The Empire hates Lukashenko and Putin not only because they do not let them seize the country’s assets, but also for their outspoken masculinity.


 
When you start defending Lukashenko for _outspoken masculinity _you are basically agreeing with Lukashenko's line that says "what they [European Union and United States] are doing here, how they are trying to they are feeding our citizens with illicit drugs, how they are spreading, disseminating gayness here, which methods they are employing" This is the racism, sexism and homophobia that McKinney is friends with.


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## frogwoman (Mar 18, 2013)

Fuck her.


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## sihhi (Mar 18, 2013)

editor said:


> The venues below are listed as "supporting venues" but I wonder how many have just taken a booking for events and aren't actually 'supporting' the loons' nutty beliefs in any way at all.
> 
> 
> And what does this mean?


 
That's why I didn't include them. The media bodies and the organisations - a large wide set from pro-cannabis/ hemp/ new age/ alternative medicine/ deep green politics / wicca is where these people bait around looking for action.


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## frogwoman (Mar 19, 2013)

Shamir's a filthy blood libel promoting cunt.


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## frogwoman (Mar 19, 2013)

He's not really a jew either, he just claims to be because it gives his lies more credibility. He's actually a Russian nationalist. He's a proper scumbag. What the fuck is she doing with this scumbag?

sorry.


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## Jazzz (Mar 19, 2013)

If all the posters on this thread can do a thousandth of the work against racism that Cynthia McKinney has achieved, that will be notable.


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## frogwoman (Mar 19, 2013)

why is she standing there with her arm round that cunt jazzz?


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## Delroy Booth (Mar 19, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> If all the posters on this thread can do a thousandth of the work against racism that Cynthia McKinney has achieved, that will be notable.


 
You're unbelievable. You and your cesspit of anti-semitic fuckups can rot in hell.

Go harass some of the victim of Sandy Hook or something, don't waste your time on here expecting people to take your bullshit seriously, that's more your level.


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## frogwoman (Mar 19, 2013)

Fuck it all.


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## sihhi (Mar 19, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> Fuck her.


 
Jazz says "Cynthia McKinney being antisemitic" is "tiresome to correct"

Cynthia McKinney posts on her open facebook page "In Europe , if you inspect the coffers of anti-Muslim neo-Nazi groups, you'll find that they thrive on Jewish support."

Presumably, if all Jews were deported back to a tightly controlled Khazar space, presumably, anti-Muslim neo-Nazi groups rapidly diminish without funding.

Yes, but that's _batcake crazy_, you say? No, not according to McKinney's other "friend" Lady Michele Renouf who has outlined her plan to the Muslim heroes in Iran:

"to this day a Jewish Autonomous Region called Birobidjan exists peacefully and available on Russia’s south-east border with China, having never displaced an indigenous people for its creation. Today some Jews try to claim that it was an act of anti-semitism when Stalin gave this region of 30,000 sq. km  (the size of Switzerland) to Jews. The truth is that Stalin was providing every ethnic group comprising the Soviet Union with its own autonomous region, and nothing “anti-semitic” has ever endangered Birobidjan. Furthermore in 1945 when European Jews were crying “We have no homeland, we need and deserve Palestine” – again they lied, for in 1945 there was no political impediment to prevent European Jewry heading for the welcome arms of their vast and long-established Jewish Autonomous Region in Birobidjan. ... My hope is that our President Ahmadinejad, who speaks the whole truth bravely, will promote awareness of the first Jewish homeland and that there is no need for European Jews to go back to Germany, Poland or Austria when they have their own state whose first language is Yiddish. Please view my first homeland option website at www.birobidjan.co.uk for, in the spirit of Imam Khomeini, there you will find a campaign for moral and morale rearmament. The Palestinians whose Nakba constitutes the greatest tragedy of the 20th century – those brave voters who democratically elected the long heroic Hamas - deserve the return of every inch of their tormented land, and not any part in the *specious “one-state two-state” farce*.  *The immediate vacation of European Jews from all of Palestine* and compensation to the indigenous Arab people is more than overdue to those who, for more than a century, continue to fight for Reason at the front line of historical truth and international justice for all of us."

Except Renouf _is_ a neo-Nazi active in Britain who wants stricter barriers to entry, deportation of immigrants and a revitalised national neofascist Britain and other white nations.

A sinister anti-classist, separatist trail from _all_ Cynthia McKinney's new friends. Does this mean anything? Hell, no! McKinney treats people equally, Jazzz says it damages anti-racism massively if suspicion is cast on the repeated racist behaviour of non-racists (like McKinney and Kollestrom, forget about him you're not meant to care about him now). Notice has been taken, Jazzz will no longer discuss McKinney.


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## frogwoman (Mar 19, 2013)

That restaurant in France where they all went - the cheapest starter is 7 euros most items on the menu are about 16 or 17 with the most expensive being 38! how many people at my local synagogue could afford that shit? i hope they fucking choke on their 38 euro steak for 2.


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## DotCommunist (Mar 19, 2013)

must be a fair few quid in the ;international activist' game


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## frogwoman (Mar 19, 2013)

A lot of money in complaining about "rich jews". Does seeing these people in those opulent surroundings not tell you something Jazzz?


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## 8den (Mar 19, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> If all the posters on this thread can do a thousandth of the work against racism that Cynthia McKinney has achieved, that will be notable.


 
Mildly curious. What specific anti racism work has Cynthia done? I only ask as I need to figure out what percentage of a thousandth of her achievement do I have to do to set this epic milestone.


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## barney_pig (Mar 19, 2013)

Didn't she claim the us. Government used hurricane katrina to cover the execution of 5000 black men whose bodies were dumped in swamps?
Yes she did
No links these sites are vicious


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## Jazzz (Mar 19, 2013)

Give me one McKinney over 10,000 armchair internet activists....



> When I returned to Georgia, I wrote a friend in the UK about my hope to interview McKinney. My friend related a story about the “Dignity” ship, carrying food and medical supplies to Palestine, in 2008, rammed by the Israeli Navy in international waters. McKinney was on that ship, and when it was rammed, she turned to my friend’s brother and said, “_David, I can’t swim._”
> 
> Nothing I had ever heard about McKinney revealed her character more succinctly. This is a woman willing to put her life on the line in support of her principles.


 
...



> CORSERI: Let’s start with a big one. The day that changed everything: 9/11. In 2004, you signed the 9/11 Truth Movement statement, calling for new investigations of “unexplained aspects of the 9/11 events.” More than 7 years have passed since then. What would you say are some of the more egregious “unexplained events”? One big question is: Where was our air force on 9/11? Why didn’t they prevent it?
> 
> MCKINNEY: We know where they were. The question is: Why didn’t they follow standard operating procedures?


 


> MCKINNEY: Our “democracy” is neither democratic nor representative! The only stake that I have in this is that I want to see a free and independent Africa. That the type of government Libya has should be determined by the Libyan people. It’s inexcusable to ask another country to bomb your fellow countrymen if you really care about your country!
> 
> Libya had the highest living standard in all of Africa. It had free education up through the PhD level. Free health care. Free utilities. Subsidized housing. And free housing if you were poor. Subsidized food. Subsidized transportaion, including car expenses. The necessities of life were paid for by the direct democracy known as the Jamahiriya.
> 
> Can you imagine this: I have a cousin who is $120,000 in student debt in the U.S. She has a Master’s degree as a social worker. If she had been born in Libya, she would have no such debt! I went to a university outside of Tripoli and asked the students about their “tuition fees”. The words didn’t translate. I asked them about what they paid to attend the university. It was nine dollars a year!


 


> MCKINNEY: Let me tell you something. The first time my daddy got into trouble was when he said, “racist Jew.” I had a Jewish friend who was trying to smooth things over. I asked her, “Is Jew a bad word? I didn’t know the word “Zionist” at that time.
> Here’s the thing: the Anti-Defamation League says they represent all Jews—that’s what they tell us. AIPAC too. So I didn’t know there was a word called “Zionist” until I became involved with the Bertrand Russell tribunal on Palestine. And there was a famous Jewish lawyer who was one of the leaders in that tribunal, and I went up to him and I said, “Daniel, how does your family feel about your being in this tribunal?” And he said, “My family are anti-Zionist Jews.” And I said, “I don’t know what that is!” I was 50-something years old, and I’d never heard such language! Now of course I’ve been exposed, and I’m more sensitive that there’s a difference. Now I have marvelous Jewish friends. And I understand the difference between Judaism and Zionism. Whoever prays to whatever God they wish, that’s fine with me, but a political ideology is quite different. I know I have a lot to learn when it comes to Zionism and Judaism. I’m not very religious, but I am spiritual. And I’m very interested in people’s beliefs. But I’m more interested in the way people behave. So I would always say, Judge me on what I do more than on what I say. And, I acknowledge I can be wrong about what I say. And my father can be wrong about what he said…


 
http://www.darkmoon.me/2012/cynthia-mckinney-tells-it-like-it-is-a-conversation-with-gary-s-corseri/

Someone that has the balls to take humanitarian supplies to Gaza and be taken prisoner by the Israelis, has the balls to travel to Libya when it was put in the firing line for the US destabilisation

not forgetting the balls to interrogate Donald Rumsfeld over the missing $2 trillion in the Pentagon Accounts



If just a tiny percentge of politicians had the guts of McKinney the world would be a far, far better place.

it's pretty clear when someone is anti-zionist and not racist and that couldn't be clearer with McKinney. Won't stop the zionist lobby crying 'anti-semite'.


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## Delroy Booth (Mar 19, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> If just a tiny percentge of politicians had the guts of McKinney the world would be a far, far better place.


 
Unless you happen to be Jewish, in which case I dread to think.



Jazzz said:


> Won't stop the zionist lobby crying 'anti-semite'.


 
What, so all the people on here who've been calling her an anti-semite are part of the (not at all dripping with anti-semitism) "zionist lobby?" Fuck right off.


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## Jazzz (Mar 19, 2013)

Delroy Booth said:


> What, so all the people on here who've been calling her an anti-semite are part of the (not at all dripping with anti-semitism) "zionist lobby?" Fuck right off.


Not sure where your logic comes from. Person A makes statement Z. I say group B makes statement Z. That doesn't mean that I am saying person A is a member of group B. But of course you assume that I would also make guilt by association arguments.


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## Delroy Booth (Mar 19, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> Not sure where your logic comes from. Person A makes statement Z. I say group B makes statement Z. That doesn't mean that I am saying person A is a member of group B. But of course you assume that I would also make guilt by association arguments.


 
The logic is fairly simple. Your saying that these accusations of anti-semitism headed in McKinney's direction are down to the influence of the mysterious evil puppetmasters the "Zionist Lobby" what i'm saying is no, these accusations are down to her presence within movements that are undisputably anti-semitic, and of course standing arm in arm with fucking Israel Shamir and quoting his anti-semitic diatribes on her facebook account is pretty conclusive. This is what makes me suspicious of her, not because I'm the agent of a Jewish conspiracy.

For someone who's so keen to stress how good they are at uncovering the "truth" about things it's pretty amusing that you can remain to blind to all this, but then again your the idiot who was encouraging people to stick copper wire into plug sockets to "earth" themselves coz your gullible enough to believe some outrageously blatant scam to sell you grounding mats and other crap, so I wouldn't put anything past you. I would like to think your a dupe, and that you don't honestly think of yourself as anti-semitic, but I don't think so I think you know fully what this is all about, I think you're well aware this is anti-semitism re-branded for the Youtube generation, and your denials here and elsewhere are utterly insincere.

Incidentally I haven't even said McKinney herself is anti-semitic, because in all honesty I don't know her politics in depth enough to judge. What I can say with some confidence however is the political project she's engaged in, and the groups she's part of, undisputably are anti-semitic. I say the same thing about you, you might not be personally anti-semtitic, god knows your capable of conjouring up some mental gymnastics to convince yourself your not, taking these euphemisms about "zionists" at face value, but what you're doing is undoubtably part of a wider anti-semitic movement. So it hardly even matters if you personally feel this way or that, what you're doing (and McKinney) is materially aiding anti-semitism.


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## butchersapron (Mar 19, 2013)

Jazzz is now in unashamedly in the sewer - with all the other rats.


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## Blagsta (Mar 19, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> If all the posters on this thread can do a thousandth of the work against racism that Cynthia McKinney has achieved, that will be notable.



Does anyone still believe Jazzz is innocent in all this?


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## goldenecitrone (Mar 19, 2013)

Blagsta said:


> Does anyone still believe Jazzz is innocent in all this?


 
Do you think Jazzz brought the towers down? That would be a turn up for the books.


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## existentialist (Mar 19, 2013)

Blagsta said:


> Does anyone still believe Jazzz is innocent in all this?


I think he could be. 

I think Jazzz is a little bit starstruck: in his universe, people like McKinney, and even the rather silly character in the court case in Horsham, represent a kind of stardom to him. 

So when unbelievers like us start criticising the sacred conspiraloon cows, it almost doesn't matter whether the criticisms are valid or not - THEY MUST BE DEFENDED.


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## frogwoman (Mar 19, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> it's pretty clear when someone is anti-zionist and not racist and that couldn't be clearer with McKinney. Won't stop the zionist lobby crying 'anti-semite'.


 
because anti-semitism is ok and "racism" isn't? if racism is worse, then did you see those pictures of her mate standing by "white pride" posters?

what makes her anti-zionist and "not racist" or is it when jews are the target it's all right by you? even if you dont give a shit about jews did you see all the other racist filth they're spouting from the links that sihhi gave and all the rape apologist shit about assange and DSK? this is a fucking sewer jazzz and some of the people promoting this are really quite powerful, an elite you might say!

The zionist lobby crying anti-semite? what's that then? get to fuck jazzz, i gave you the benefit of the doubt for years on here but this, this can fuck off. what are those pictures then of her cosying up to the rich fash with their posh dinners in that restaurant, lot of money in the promotion of anti-semitism these days innit? there always was i suppose, despite all their fucking crying and wailing about how they're being repressed and about how they're not allowed to tell the truth - they seem to have done pretty well out of it!

this is fucking sickening, you're not even ashamed of it!


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## butchersapron (Mar 19, 2013)

This is what he's saying with



> Won't stop the zionist lobby crying 'anti-semite'.


 
_those of you criticising me are having your strings pulled by jews._


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## frogwoman (Mar 19, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> This is what he's saying with
> 
> 
> 
> _those of you criticising me are having your strings pulled by jews._


 
i gave him the benefit of the doubt for years. jazzz aren't you jewish? what do the other jewish people you know make of this shit?

speaking for myself, i'd be fucking sickened if somebody i knew started going on about zionist bankers and all that shit.


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## frogwoman (Mar 19, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> Not sure where your logic comes from. Person A makes statement Z. I say group B makes statement Z. That doesn't mean that I am saying person A is a member of group B. But of course you assume that I would also make guilt by association arguments.


 
What exactly are you trying to say then?


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## ViolentPanda (Mar 19, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> I get upset about this because these are people I know, they aren't bankers or goblin-like characters sitting in caves and counting their money, these are people i know, done stuff with, worshipped with etc. the idea of the "number of rich jews" being criticised by people who are making a living out of preaching hate and selling gullible idiots their colloidal gold/silver/platinum/earthing/electricity scams is actually fucking sickening, as is jewish conspiracies being blamed by people who _themselves_ held state power and have blood on their hands like that twat mathir mohammed.
> 
> you don't seem to get this at all.


 
What's sad as fuck is the amount of magical thinking that has to go on in order to present "The Jews" as an entity as an existential threat to anyone. The degree of conflation (of Jews with Israelis and Israel; of Jews with "international banking interests; of Jews with "secret societies" bent on dominating this world) necessary to do so defies logic!


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## ViolentPanda (Mar 19, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> Holocaust denial should be a crime, in my opinion. How can such a horrific experience of so many be denied?


 
I don't agree that denying it should be a crime. I do believe that people who promote the kind of ahistorical unscientific _dreck_ that is the *backbone* of holocaust denial should be relentless pilloried from every and any platform available. The Lipstatt case against Irving proved that national publicity did more to destroy his credibility than years of academic opprobrium.


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## butchersapron (Mar 19, 2013)

sihhi said:


> Jazzz (assuming it's the same one 'Dr Jazzz') being mates with Cynthia McKinney and Annie Machon:


 
I guess this would be the paris meeting at which jazzz pretended that he has met Cynthia Mckinney and that she had told him her true feelings on 911...and got rather caught out. See this thread.


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## ViolentPanda (Mar 19, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> Give me one McKinney over 10,000 armchair internet activists....


 
Probably because she'd suck up your gut-wrenching bullshit like it was lobster bisque, whereas those tiresome "armchair internet activists" won't.

BTW, many of the people you're insiuating are "armchair internet activists" have done plenty of "real-life" activism, and generally out of the view of the international media, as *they* aren't "doing" activism as a way to promote and prolong a career.


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## ViolentPanda (Mar 19, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> why is she standing there with her arm round that cunt jazzz?


 
You missed a comma between "cunt" and "jazzz".

Or did you?


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## Delroy Booth (Mar 19, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> See this thread.


 
You deserve a medal for that. Then you deserve to have it taken off you as medals are the trinkets of bourgeois imperialist militarism, and have no place in a thoroughly proletarian movement.

Jazzz is such a worm, you can almost smell the hero-worship he has of these pitiful chancers and con-artists that float around with all the other turds in the troof toilet. Didn't know Taffboy was a conspiraloon either. This stuff's rampant amongst the under-23's, luckily it's usually not hard to debunk the stuff (a quick look through Jazzz's posting history is probably a good place to start) but it's a shame that otherwise well-intention, if a little naive, people get suckered into this line of thinking. It has the potential to do damage, although I'm pretty confident it can be broken down with a bit of hard work and logic.

I never thought I'd see the day that the Wigan, Makerfield and Atherton People's Alliance get to share a thread with Cynthia McKinnon's failed politician-looking-for-a-job-to-satiate-their-vanity circus. Mind you, Pete Franzen's pretty paranoid, even if he is a decent guy at heart. Truly these are the end of days.


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## sihhi (Mar 19, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> why is she standing there with her arm round that cunt jazzz?


 Because she is addressing a crowd of Islamist conspiracists (that country's version of the truth movement figures) in Ankara alongside Shamir.

 


frogwoman said:


> some of the people promoting this are really quite powerful, an elite you might say!


 
 It is the supposed other side of US power pole - hence both Israel Shamir and McKinney's support on a cross-class basis for Gaddafist Libya, Iran, Belarus and Russia.

 Note, before the following brief look through her facebook, that this doesn't make her particularly worse than the 99% of US politicians who support US  power - from the Ron Pauls to the Chuck Hagels to the Nancy Pelosis - but she is not a principled, meaningful anti-racist. Her visit to Gaddafi or her part in the Gaza Convoy is based around sustaining those forces which she sees as allies for black America. 

 There's a link on her facebook about her interview with Gilad Atzmon. Here Cynthia McKinney performs on Atzmon what Jazzz does on McKinney (aka dismiss all actual facts - known as "truthseeking")

 


> The interview was a good follow-up to his remarks in Atlanta.  I touched him.  He's human.  He's just a person.  And he's a thinker.  He has deep philosophical underpinnings for his positions.  He is actually engaging in a conversation with himself, but is allowing the world to hear his musings. ... At any rate, in the flesh, Gilad is charming and thought-provoking.  He said nothing that was offensive to me and nothing that I heard him say resembles what I read about him.


 
 What she puts up on her facebook basically matches a modern black version of Coughlinism (occasionally turning into a wider movement as in the Huey Long era) in the US South, ultimately not too dissimilar in worldview from fringes of black militant nationalism - Nation of Islam and the NBPP.

 What's stunning is her defence of (also an anti-racist) Tony Martin

 


> Cynthia McKinney shared a link. Friday





> Look at this: Why was Professor Tony Martin so trashed when all he did was expose a fact? Now, it is readily admitted that Jews owned slaves and thousands fought for the Confederacy, the play "The Whipping Man" is the story of one Jewish slave owner and two newly freed enslaved Africans from his plantation




 Martin died recently - worth examining who he was.

 He was an anti-racist yes strongly proclaimed - just like Jazzz does, that he was an anti-racist.

 He was the history professor in Boston's Wellesley College who, as soon as he gained tenure, stepped up his anti-Jewish assertions within his African history/Africana courses, included a Nation of Islam book (specially commissioned by Farrakhan) _The Secret Relationship between Blacks and Jews (_basic sample assertion_ "_Jews have been conclusively linked to the greatest criminal endeavor ever undertaken against an entire race of people … the black African Holocaust") as part of his compulsory reading lists, in addition to his own work and other Africanists like Martin Bernal. Some students questioned his use of the Nation of Islam material - full of incorrect assertions and foonotes that say the exact opposite of what is claimed for instance that most Jewish religious figures supported slavery in 1860, in fact most were steady (but not radical) abolitionists the mainstream left-wing of US Northern opinion. This lead him to become suspicious of his (and other) white students - some had released information about his course to a Jewish anti-racist organisation Hillel.
 In his anger he ferociously verbally abused a female student Alyson Todd who had questioned his entry into a women's only dormitory (apparently trying to recruit black students there), calling her a "white fucking b****" "racist" "bigot" etc among other things, crowding over her to the point where she fell down and was rescued by the intervention of other staff. Then began spreading rumours about her being an inveterate racist, encouraging his black students to act against her and her friends. Then stepped up publishing and distribution to students and staff his special broadsheet _Blacks and Jews at Wellesley News_* promoting black separatism in Boston (where Jews, Irish Americans and Protestant white Americans had recently experienced troublesome episodes the Southey bussing of the 1970s, white far right activism over black mugging in the 1980s). The broadsheet explained Jewish media control in Los Angeles studios and newspapers, restated primary Jewish control of the African slave trade, repeated _fact-free assertions_ based around a 1971 Nation Of Islam work _Juan Colon alias Cristobal Colon alias Christopher Columbus was a Spanish Jew,_ that yes Colombus was a Jew and so when he began the initial colonisation of the Tainos in the Carribbean he did this _as a Jew; _reasserted active Jewish participation in the "extermination of the Native Americans" etc; stated the importance of Jewish control of international trafficking and prostitution of women. 

*_Blacks and Jews News_ was the name of the bulletin the Nation of Islam put out for instance in parts of New York where blacks and Jews lived close by (see the Crown Heights riots of 1991).

Then when 121 (nearly all, black and white) academics at the College censured him at a College-wide meeting for threatening students, for referring to fellow professor Mary Lefkowitz, who had rejected on academic grouds his Afrocentric origins of ancient Greek culture ideas, as "a Jew" and devious for this reason in his _Blacks and Jews at Wellesley News_ etc - he began complaining of an all-encompassing Zionist conspiracy, eventually publishing _The Jewish Onslaught: Dispatches from the Wellesley Battlefront_ attacking those blacks failing to support him and his publications as white tools on the pattern of a "Jewish-Responsible Negro alliance" (conspiracism again). In spite of all his behaviour he remained a paid professor - out of court settlement between student and college solving the racist tirade against the student Todd.

 He later in 2001 conducted, in a platform alongside Holocaust denier David Irving amongst others, a lecture entitled _The Judaic Role in the Black Slave Trade_ once fictitiously overstating Jewish involvement in financing and conducting slave raiding and deportation from Africa to the Western Hemisphere and linking to essentially fixed Jewish practices, demanding reparations from all Jews for the African Holocaust. Next to him of course was Irving attacking the reparation and restitution from Germany and central Europe for the Holocaust demanding all money should be seized back to Germany and Austria in light of new evidence about the Holocaust. Again he remained a professor - ie there was .

 So this figure sustaining the concept of a Jewish slaveocracy importing Africans into British North America (Britain would not have done it so much otherwise) and essentially a Jewish-Confederacy conspiracy is "all he did was expose a fact".

Look further down her facebook and what do you see is Cynthia McKinney's praise for Orientalist pro-Arab French ambassador Stephane Hessel who managed to conclude 'L'antisémitisme est un sentiment naturel pour les Juifs' antisemitism is a natural feeling for Jews.

Then this puzzling point about Galloway refusing to address a debate against an Israeli Jew: "George Galloway making the news again ..." - it shouldn't make the news because it's a sane meaningful course of action or great it's making the news - who knows?


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## sihhi (Mar 19, 2013)

The soft conspiracist world-view is all there in Cynthia McKinney's facebook (approximately one-third skating-line anti-Zionism, one-third support for anti-US poles Venezuela, Iran etc, one-third support for actual social movements in the US). There's no meaningful anti-racist work - it's simply the location of black America's problems as world Jewish power instead of a structural caste or class reality over the centuries. It runs something along these lines: Jewish power having deeply extended the slavery in the first place, and then sustained the Confederacy (demand reparations from Jews when the time is right), then controlled Hollywood and the media to maintain official segregation and racism, and then when the civil rights movement began killed JFK, Malcolm, MLK and Bobby etc, Jewish power now diverts America from its own true interests of investing in its poor black communities sidelining its wealth into military production to help Israel, what role did Mossad play in these attacks – it's an important question. Re-investigate 9-11 Now!

To be clear, I have no doubt she is sincere in seeking peace  and racial justice. However, it is precisely her involvement in truthism precisely the adoration of Jazzzes that is dragging her further down this present outlook. An outlook based upon conspiracism and meaningless activism - reinvestigation of 9-11 and support on a cross-class basis for enemies of Zionist influence. She believes Zionists stopped her getting elected.

It encourages her fans who leave comments like this:
"How the hell does one 'debate' when the other side's argument boils down to: 
"I'm special, Gawd said so!" & "If you disagree with anything I say, you're a bad person who hates Gawd & supports Hitler!"
in response to the Galloway affair.

It leads to the lunacy of her asserting at a movement event for prisoners Critical Resistance that 5,000 prisoners were shot dead by the US Corrections Department/Department of Defense in 2005 in and their bodies dumped in Louisiana marshland and swamps:



It also leads to a mad strategy of aiming for a politicised Muslim community on the basis that they are Muslims, wholly to overwhelm a Jewish community that is controlling America:



Is there anything about a non-racial class-based popular movement that can overcome chauvinism from any direction? No. Politicise the Muslims to make a third force to stop the Jewish lobbyists controlling Congress. Is this anti-racism?

Bottom line Jazzz only likes her because she says stuff like:

"the "Conspiracy Theory" is what the government put out. Those who are part of the 9.11 Truth community are the ones who have evidence on their side; evidence of acts, conspiratorial acts. So you can follow the theory or you can follow 
the evidence, and I chose to follow the evidence."

and because she is in favour of a form of a populist peace movement-rightist 'states' rights' fundamentalist-militia unity against the overlords:

"But there are people now with the passage of the National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA) - there's an NDAA every 
year, but this one legalized indefinite detention - now they understand a little bit better, who the real enemies are: they are the enemies of liberty, the enemies of freedom, and I’m really proud that these very same people who I’ve reached out to them, and I’ve done what - for example - Jane Napolitano tells us we're not  supposed to do. That is, we're not supposed to talk to people who are or were or are sympathetic to the militia or members of the Klan. These people are characterized as white racists, and somehow I’m supposed to be afraid of them, when I’m a Southerner and I grew up with them, I understand that people can change, through interaction, there can be a change of heart, a change of behavior and a change of mind."

(from Dissenting Opinion Journal of Peace and Protest)


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## butchersapron (Mar 19, 2013)

sihhi has picked up on a really key point in his last few posts in highlighting the _movement _(as in changing opinions and base-ground beliefs) that these people and their beliefs and form of (non)activism produce, the contexts they demand that politics starts from the sort of warped perspective he outlines, and it demands everyone else also starts from it too.

Now, if you are naive _OMG mine eyes have been opened! _type like CM (and the hero worship just intensifies this) then it appears to be very easy to lose your bearings - and the same thing will be played out for many many other angry people just coming to political conclusions in a society where alternative (say left-wing for ease for now) viewpoints and organisations don't have much rootedness or even visibility in w/c communities, but where this sort of thing does offer a set of psuedo-answers and a pseudo-community for them to be involved in. That really is a poisonous situation.

(Someone linked a few months back to a doco about the growth of conspiracy theories in inner city black communities in the US recently, can't seem to find it now)


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## 8ball (Mar 19, 2013)

Good post - got any solutions?


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## butchersapron (Mar 19, 2013)

In short beyond putting shoulders to the wheels of things like bedroom tax actions, stuff that is effecting people in these sort of communities there really isn't one, the sort of stuff that is attracting people needs to be shown in practice to just be...nothing. Now, large scale movements can do that lot more effectively and a lot more quickly but we're not going to get that large scale movement without doing the small stuff first, the face-to-face stuff.

This is possibly a sort of opp for me to use my fav marty glaberman quote, as it fits with just a few changed terms:



> It's essential to reject the idea that nothing can happen until white workers are no longer racist. I don't know what anybody thinks the Russian workers in 1917 were. They were sexist. They were nationalist. A lot of them were under the thumb of the church. But they made a goddamn revolution that began to change them. Whether there's a social explosion or not doesn't depend on any formal attitudes or supporting this particular organisation or that particular organisation.


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## Delroy Booth (Mar 19, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Now, if you are naive _OMG my eyes have been opened! _type like CM (and the hero worship just intensifies this) then it appears to be very easy to lose your bearings - and the same thing will be played out for many many other angry people just coming to political conclusions in a society where alternative (say left-wing for ease for now) viewpoints and organisations don't have much rootedness or even visibility in w/c communities, but where this sort of thing does offer a set of psuedo-answers and a pseudo-community for them to be involved in. That really is a poisonous situation.


 
Agree with this a lot. See this all the time in my own experiences, although it must be said it's usually a lot easier to counter this kind of stuff with normal people, most people actually can accept fact and arguments if you put it to them in a respectful way, not in this borderline religiou dogma that Jazzz has got himself caught up in.



butchersapron said:


> (Someone linked a few months back to a doco about the growth of conspiracy theories in inner city black communities in the US recently, can't seem to find it now)


 
There's a whole series of articles on the Kasama project, American anarcho-maoist group, about the uptake of illuminati style conspiracies in inner city black communities. I'll try and dig it it up, might be useful.

Oh yeah and Immortal Technique, who I heard a rumour was once in the Communist Party USA and who self-identified as a socialist, now appears on Alex Jones radio shows pushing a lot of this troof stuff, he's probably the most high-profile exponent of this. Being courted a lot by Alex Jones as a counter to critics that he, and his movement, are deeply racist.

He's gone from this sort of thing


to pushing this shite "bush knocked down the towers"


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## butchersapron (Mar 19, 2013)

Yep, think it was Kasama, the nutty let me go to nepal types, cheers. They always reminds me of this line from Albert Meltzer's autobiography:



> Orwell also said that Weisbord had once campaigned to be Governor of New York State on a manifesto addressed "To the Workers and Peasants of Brooklyn".


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## Delroy Booth (Mar 19, 2013)

Kasama might be totally fringe nutjob camp, but every now and they do put some worthwhile articles on that blog. Far better than some of the more sensible groups in many instances. The comments sections are a good laugh too.


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## TruXta (Mar 19, 2013)

Anecdotally I've seen a good few Black Supremacist groups having stands and whatnot in Brixton and around town lately. Can't remember seeing them much until the last year or two.


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## el-ahrairah (Mar 19, 2013)

tbh i've seen them on and off for the whole 6 or so years i've been here.


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## sihhi (Mar 19, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Now, if you are naive _OMG my eyes have been opened! _type like CM (and the hero worship just intensifies this) then it appears to be very easy to lose your bearings - and the same thing will be played out for many many other angry people just coming to political conclusions in a society where alternative (say left-wing for ease for now) viewpoints and organisations don't have much rootedness or even visibility in w/c communities, but where this sort of thing does offer a set of psuedo-answers and a pseudo-community for them to be involved in. That really is a poisonous situation.
> 
> (Someone linked a few months back to a doco about the growth of conspiracy theories in inner city black communities in the US recently, can't seem to find it now)


 
You are right. Blacks in Georgia where Cynthia is from - could as well be Atlanta or New Orleans or Florida are being turfed out of their houses because the mortgages are unaffordable, and this - from just about every tendency - is being blamed on "the banks" or "Wall Street" "Goldman Sachs" - associated sadly by media tropes with "rich Jews".

It does offer a set of answers and a strong community - that's been the case with Garveyism and the UNIA, black support for Governor Huey Long until he was assassinated in 1935, the genuinely 70% black participation in Jim Jones's People's Temple, the Nation of Islam in the north, the Nu-waubian Nation of Moors, the fringes of some of the black churches in the South, and the various black empowerment funds, the Black Hebrew Israelites - all based around conspiracism in one form or another. The stunning growth of the Nation of Islam in the black ghettos in the late 80s and early 90s after it seemed a dead organisation. The truth movement variation is only one of a long list.

Now that Obama (an identikit Chicago Democrat - but somehow retaining the image of something of a radical throughout 2002-2008) has failed so deeply and living conditions under even a black President have got worse (official black America NAACP said it would get better) the explanation must lie in other forces ie the Jewish-Responsible Negro alliance, except now this is often understood in terms of _Illuminati _deceiving responsible black America, hence 'BET is controlled by Illuminati Hollywood, the TV and films are full of garbage' 'Illuminati bring in drugs', 13 Illuminati families helped start the trading companies helped form drug cartels during the early modern era, now they have links to Mexican cartels and flood ghettos with drugs. Key figures from rap music  - Mos Def, Lupe Fiasco, Killer Mike - all focused on on black poltical self-assertion in their lyrics - all claim Islamists did not participate 9-11, the 9-11 conspiracy even has its supporters amongst some of the other drug-dealer gangster self-assertion wing of rap music (LOX and Jadakiss).

The radical black nationalist vision has partly merged with a conspiracist outlook - the New Black Panther Party is a wholly conspiracist organisation, as are parts of the African People's Socialist Party. So conspiracy theorising is not a massive deviation - that Cynthia McKinney is doing it is not something wildly unprecedented. It's just Jazzz wants to sustain conspiracism for his own particular ends - I suspect something along the lines of hooking up UKIP opponents of the EU along with the alternative/ deep green / peace movements (the peace movement being the one under heaviest truth movement pressure right now) - ie their combination to sideline and suffocate non-electoral anti-EU-and-anti-UK "leftist" popular movements.


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## William of Walworth (Mar 19, 2013)

Has there ever been any troofer or conspiracist anywhere, ever, who is demonstrably and functionally rational and logical? Or even sane?

Threads like this make me strongly doubt it ... though tbf I've *always* doubted it.


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## existentialist (Mar 19, 2013)

William of Walworth said:


> Has there ever been any troofer or conspiracist anywhere, ever, who is demonstrably and functionally rational and logical? Or even sane?
> 
> Threads like this make me strongly doubt it ... though tbf I've *always* doubted it.


TBF, I don't think it is possible to be demonstrably sane.


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## William of Walworth (Mar 19, 2013)

Possibly the opposite though, in this context ...


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## Delroy Booth (Mar 19, 2013)

Can I just ask politely as a newcomer, how come Jazzz has actually been able to get away with this on this message board for so many years?

I've just been reading through the thread linked earlier from _5 years ago_ where the architect bloke turned up and comprehensively rinsed Jazzz's stupid waffling about engineering, I'm 10 pages into it and my jaw's just hanging open. Check out this exchange. Can't quote (don't have the "privilige" apparently you oppressive fascists) but the architect calls out Jazzz on some of his pseudo-science bullshit, as is tradition, and sums up quite succinctly why he's wrong.

TheArchitect


> But above all, what physical evidence do we have?
> 
> We HAVE physical evidence of planes hitting the building. We HAVE physical evidence of severe fires. We HAVE physical evidence of buckling of the external facades. We HAVE eyewitness reports of structural damage and requests for engineers.
> 
> We HAVE bugger all evidence of explosives.


to which Jazzz started his wriggling by saying...



> Sure, but as is being pointed out, wires would be noticed, and would take plenty of time on site. You cannot view this from a commercial/civilian framework, it must a military one. With unlimited expense and time spent planning and offsite, and the best military expertise one cannot say it would not be possible. And indeed you are not.
> 
> Years, not months, of planning. This was surely the dress rehearsal.


 
which gets the perfectly reasonably reply from The Architect



> But Jazz, you have no physical proof whatsoever for this.
> 
> That makes it a matter of belief, not reason, and we're not here for a religious argument.
> 
> If you have physical evidence of explosives, then produce it.


 
and then Jazzz comes out with this belter  (emphasis mine)



> What nonsense. *It is entirely possible to reason and discuss different opinions on subjects without there being any requirement for anyone to come up with a blood-stained carving knife. This is not a court of law.* I'll be happy to elaborate on the evidence for CD (much of which you can find in Steve Jones' paper). But did you read the Fire Engineering article in which the investigation was described as 'half-baked farce'? I have no proof of how the towers fell. But nor has anyone else.


 
You can't argue with logic like that, you just can't. This is a religious argument. You've got a better chance of converting Westboro Baptist Church to Judaism than getting anything but inane bullshit from this person. This is the person, lest we forget, who jettisoned his last 9/11 thread after he recommended attaching a wire to yourself and _putting it in the plug socket_ in all seriousness, a new low even for this veteran dickhead, before he started this one. No doubt once this thread is full of similarly embarassing refuations, captain facepalm will just start another one and on and on it goes.

Now I'm new here, and it hasn't dawned on me until quite recently just how long he's being doing this. Honestly, and I swear I don't meam this as a sectarian insult, it reminds me a lot of a full-time trot. A career trot, with Lenin duvet covers and Trotsky pyjamas. Or maybe a cynical trot, who threw out his books years ago and starting voting Labour and now just goes through the motions because they need to pay the bills somehow, so they keep on blindy repeating the dogma and the party line no matter how stupid it appears.

I do wonder if Jazzz draws an income out of what he does. He's either doing it for a living or utterly insane. Potentially both. The interesting thing is, he's not just some lonely guy in a basement, some tragic case who's being exploited, or a daft kid who'll realise it's all stupid in 3 years, but someone fairly competent, involved marginally in some of the groups he goes on about. He's definitely a fantasist and a bit gullible, and the hero-worship of people like Cynthia M is hilariously earnest, like a doe eyed SWP'er going to Marxism back in the old days for the first time and meeting Tony Cliff, Paul Foot and Duncas Hallas and hanging around on their fringes, buffing their vanity and giving him/her chance to bask in their reflected glory, to _get close to the vanguard_, honestly that's how it looks to me.

I'm going to end up reading that 135 page trainwreck thread from 2007 now and feeling rougher than a badgers arse by the end of it. I bet it's even more cathartic, infuriating and depressing than the Beating the Fascists thread. But this is all quite new to me, and I'm at the stage of grim fascination and morbid curiosity, but I want to know how has everyone else actually put up with this bullshit for so long? Seriously? The guy posts up really genuinely offensive shit constantly, laced with anti-semitism and dangerous advice the like plug socket stuff. And he's not just a lone nut, look at the other thread from back in the day, he had all his clown buddies from the Icke forum circus turn up and try it on too! I mean would you actually have a long-term scientologist recruiter on here, pushing anti-pysch stuff and dangerous advice systematically over years, using the forum as a recruitment and promotion platform? Or any of the other faces in this freakshow, so admirably catalogued and analyzed by so many of the posters on here over quite a long period of time ( butchersapron and sihhi deserve credit in particular on this) would they be welcome to push this stuff too? Gilad Atzmon? Vile creature that he is, i don't think he ever stooped as low as to try claiming the Sandy Hook school shooting massacre, y'know where all those children died ffs, was a hoax on the basis of a picture of an owl drawn by a child, just to pick a single recent example. Or am I wrong there? Maybe Atzmon did, I don't actually know, point is I don't think he should actually get away with it just because he's part of furniture round here and people get a kick out of indulging him. god knows.


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## JimW (Mar 19, 2013)

Delroy Booth said:


> Can I just ask politely as a newcomer, how come Jazzz has actually been able to get away with this on this message board for so many years?


 He doesn't realise it, but he's the unwitting foil in our long-running conspiracy to discredit by making look foolish any sceptics, thus avoiding uncomfortable questions about how we blew the towers up using ultra-high-pressure colloidal silver hoses earthed to the mains.


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## frogwoman (Mar 19, 2013)

Some excellent from butchers, delroy and sihhi here - i've been trying to say this sort of stuff (about the appeal of conspiracy theorists etc) on here before a lot of people think on here and in the left in general that it's totally marginal, but it's not.

The flipside of all this, of course, is that it _could_ (and almost certainly already has) alienate a lot of young jewish people (and not just them!) who are just coming to political conclusions from anti-war etc stuff given the acceptance of the likes of Galloway, McKinney etc in the movement and the perception of them (not really doing much to be dispelled) as being "lefties" against the system etc or anything to do with "alternative" politics and push them towards a hard-right islamophobic zionist UKIP/EDL stance, ironically relying on a pro-war, pro-israel conspiracy theory narrative of its own about "Eurabia" and so on. I've posted a bit on here before about how I had zionist/anti-muslim beliefs in my teens and so on. 

If notthing is counteracted by your experience and if you can see its not for the likes of you then what then?


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## 8den (Mar 19, 2013)

Delroy,

This is honestly Jazzz's opinion




			
				Jazzz said:
			
		

> No, you do not understand the point. Suppose I tell you that pigs fly. "nonsense" you say. But then I go, "aha! What if you were to see a flying pig tomorrow, what would you say then?"
> 
> My position is that 9/11 was an inside job and any proper investigation will reach the same conclusion. So you can't ask me to consider a hypothetical position that I am saying is impossible.


 
A few years ago I asked Jazzz what evidence could be presented that would convince him "9/11 was NOT a inside job". And the answer was simple, there isn't away.

It is not Jazzz opinion that 911 is a job, it is a article of faith with him, he is convinced 9/11 was a inside job, he is convinced he beat the architect in that thread, he is convinced Cynthia Mc Kinney is a the spokesperson of the 9/11 truth movement but she can't come out and say "9/11 is a inside job", and there is nothing you can say or do that will dissuade him.  You're not arguing with a rational person here. Jazzz is as sane and rational as any creationist.

There are many deeply unpleasant and heinous things he's said and done on this forum, be it claiming Ian Huntley is innocent, and his victims were murdered by American soldiers, to his defence and friendship with holocaust deniers and 7/7 conspiracy theorists who have harassed members of this forum.


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## Delroy Booth (Mar 19, 2013)

8den said:


> There are many deeply unpleasant and heinous things he's said and done on this forum,* be it claiming Ian Huntley is innocent, and his victims were murdered by American soldiers*, to his defence and friendship with holocaust deniers and 7/7 conspiracy theorists who have harassed members of this forum.


 


Find me one other person who could get away with doing that.

Let's tell some yank veterans that he's going round saying that about them, that'd be pretty funny 

EDIT btw I didn't link the "architect" thread http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/9-11-media-happenings.116208/ here ya go, anyone who wants to see a thoroughly controlled demolition of Jazzzism here's the best one


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## Nylock (Mar 19, 2013)

"Jazzzism"


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## Spymaster (Mar 19, 2013)

Delroy Booth said:


> Find me one other person who could get away with doing that.
> 
> Let's tell some yank veterans that he's going round saying that about them, that'd be pretty funny
> 
> EDIT btw I didn't link the "architect" thread http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/9-11-media-happenings.116208/ here ya go, anyone who wants to see a thoroughly controlled demolition of Jazzzism here's the best one


 
135 pages?

Fuck that, where are the best bits?


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## Gingerman (Mar 19, 2013)

Delroy Booth said:


> Find me one other person who could get away with doing that.
> 
> Let's tell some yank veterans that he's going round saying that about them, that'd be pretty funny
> 
> EDIT btw I didn't link the "architect" thread http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/9-11-media-happenings.116208/ here ya go, anyone who wants to see a thoroughly controlled demolition of Jazzzism here's the best one


 One of my favourite threads ever,the pawnage was spectactular,epic even


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## frogwoman (Mar 19, 2013)

William of Walworth said:


> Has there ever been any troofer or conspiracist anywhere, ever, who is demonstrably and functionally rational and logical? Or even sane?
> 
> Threads like this make me strongly doubt it ... though tbf I've *always* doubted it.


 
of course it's possible. and threads like this don't prove it, they seem to be doing better than the left in getting their narrative into popular culture etc tbh.


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## frogwoman (Mar 19, 2013)

The black people/conspiracism thing is interesting sihhi and it matches stuff that i have heard/seen myself with the muslim community in britain and lots of people in the community believing those theories. At the risk of sounding like a conspiracy theorist myself, I can't help but be reminded of the harsh but disproportionate treatment given to Black Panthers in US prisons and the fact that people have been put in solitary for years for trying to organise a branch of the party, as well as the fact that the CIA was implicated into drug smuggling in black communities. Could it be that sections of the US ruling class would probably have an interest in trying to promote this type of thinking/politics as opposed to working class politics? Again I hope this doesn't sound too paranoid, it's late at night I had a busy day today and I'm quite tired.

By the way, on the BDS thing, I would absolutely agree with you that BDS is not _in itself_ anti-semitic, I don't agree with the campaign however I think in its current form (a single issue and not linked to the wider issues of militarisation, the defence industry and imperialism, not just Israeli) it can be argued in a very counterproductive. I have heard about anti-semitic incidents increasing whenever some universities in the US have things like "Israeli Apartheid Week" and so on. Like any liberal single issue campaign it attracts people with their own hobby horses and many of these people behind these campaigns are not opposed to US or more often Russian or Chinese imperialism. The big issue is how to develop a campaign about this stuff and link it to imperialism and militarism in general and w/c issues back at home without developing a sort of economic nationalist/anti-"welfare" approach (soke of the emails i get from the US campaign to end the occupation are fuckin horrendous like that) , I think we discussed this a few weeks back it could have even been on the same thread.

But no it's not anti-semitic. I don't agree with it but there are lots of good people involved in those campaigns despite the fact that I don't agree with their politics.


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## William of Walworth (Mar 20, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> of course it's possible. and threads like this don't prove it, they seem to be doing better than the left in getting their narrative into popular culture etc tbh.


 
Well some CTers might be scarily effective at promoting their stuff sure. But that doesn't in any way mean that they know how to make their theories consistent with rational rules of fact and evidence though does it?

Call me biased (guilty!), but to me, the way CTers are able to get their theories out there and get taken more seriously than you might expect, says as much about their audience as about the CTers themselves.


----------



## William of Walworth (Mar 20, 2013)

TBF though, the best thread (IMO) covering the disjunct between CT thought mode mode and, erm, common sense  , was that mega 'Conspiraloons in the Ascendancy?' thread from three/four years back ... the whole subject of fact/evidence vs selectively believing what you want to believe(and ignoring everything else that's inconvenient) was done to death on there ... Delroy if you have a few days free time  you might want to look at it.

I'm sure you're able to see froggy why so much conspiracy theory comes over as rank insanity to those not in the select inner circle of knowledge


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 20, 2013)

William of Walworth said:


> TBF though, the best thread (IMO) covering the disjunct between CT thought mode mode and, erm, common sense  , was that mega 'Conspiraloons in the Ascendancy?' thread from two or three years back ... the whole fact/evidence vs selectively believing what you want to believe thing (and ignoring everything else that was inconvenient) was done to death on there ... Delroy if you have a few days free time  you might want to look at it.
> 
> I'm sure you're able to see froggy why so much conspiracy theory comes over as rank insanity to those not in the select inner circle of knowledge


 
of course I do, that's why I've posted many times on the stupidity of it, exposed why their anti-semitic hate preaching is bullshit, etc. By saying this I'm not endorsing their views, given my background i'm hardly likely to agree with what they say!!. What I'm saying is that this stuff isn't as marginal and confined to a few loons as many on urban seem to think, or why would people I knew from uni etc believe this stuff? why would i regularly hear it from random strangers on trains and buses? Why can you buy their shit books from waterstones etc? There's obviously a huge demand for it.


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## William of Walworth (Mar 20, 2013)

I agree and its a worry.

Will get back to this. Need a bath now though!


----------



## Random (Mar 20, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> Could it be that sections of the US ruling class would probably have an interest in trying to promote this type of thinking/politics as opposed to working class politics? Again I hope this doesn't sound too paranoid, it's late at night I had a busy day today and I'm quite tired.


 My guess is that, even if it's not promoted, conspiracy nonsense in the US gets an easier ride from the authorities, doesn't get repressed like leftism or black power groups, since it's not seen as a political threat.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Mar 20, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> of course I do, that's why I've posted many times on the stupidity of it, exposed why their anti-semitic hate preaching is bullshit, etc. By saying this I'm not endorsing their views, given my background i'm hardly likely to agree with what they say!!. What I'm saying is that this stuff isn't as marginal and confined to a few loons as many on urban seem to think, or why would people I knew from uni etc believe this stuff? why would i regularly hear it from random strangers on trains and buses? Why can you buy their shit books from waterstones etc? There's obviously a huge demand for it.


 
My impression (evidence free, of course) is that there's quite a lot of very 'soft' interest in conspiracy theories. People who will read a one-paragraph Facebook status and take it at face value, or think 'there must be something in it,' but that's about as far as it goes for them. My brother is a bit like that tbh, and it doesn't take much to convinve him he's wrong (until the next one comes along) if you actually force him to think about it.


----------



## existentialist (Mar 20, 2013)

William of Walworth said:


> I agree and its a worry.
> 
> Will get back to this. Need a bath now though!


I find I need a bath after reading some of these CT threads, too.


----------



## 8den (Mar 20, 2013)

I re read them and think "God I've got to swear less"


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 20, 2013)

As a slight aside - and because there is no way I am starting a thread on this - one of the people I work with was telling me how big freemasonry is in Korea. I was all WTF, but apparently there's tons of CT nuts over there and they believe the freemasons are behind everything (including all the major Korean corporations of course) and to top it all the freemasons are SATANISTS!!!!!


----------



## Delroy Booth (Mar 20, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> As a slight aside - and because there is no way I am starting a thread on this - one of the people I work with was telling me how big freemasonry is in Korea. I was all WTF, but apparently there's tons of CT nuts over there and they believe the freemasons are behind everything (including all the major Korean corporations of course) and to top it all the freemasons are SATANISTS!!!!!


 
pft, everyone knows that this freemasonary stuff is just mis-direction being pulled by the _real_ secret society that rules the world.


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## existentialist (Mar 20, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> As a slight aside - and because there is no way I am starting a thread on this - one of the people I work with was telling me how big freemasonry is in Korea. I was all WTF, but apparently there's tons of CT nuts over there and they believe the freemasons are behind everything (including all the major Korean corporations of course) and to top it all the freemasons are SATANISTS!!!!!


I'm a Freemason, and it's all true. You have no bloody IDEA how long we spend - and how much money we spend - buying up nanothermite, goats, lime jelly, owls, and pyramids. We can barely afford our ten course dinners. It's only the Illuminati and alien gold reserves that keep us afloat.


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## existentialist (Mar 20, 2013)

Delroy Booth said:


> pft, everyone knows that this freemasonary stuff is just mis-direction being pulled by the _real_ secret society that rules the world.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 20, 2013)

existentialist said:


> I'm a Freemason, and it's all true. You have no bloody IDEA how long we spend - and how much money we spend - buying up nanothermite, goats, lime jelly, owls, and pyramids. We can barely afford our ten course dinners. It's only the Illuminati and alien gold reserves that keep us afloat.


You forgot to mention the FEMA camps...


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## existentialist (Mar 20, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> You forgot to mention the FEMA camps...


Don't MENTION the FEMA camps!!!


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 20, 2013)

existentialist said:


> Don't MENTION the FEMA camps!!!


The first rule of freemasonry is don't talk about the FEMA camps???


----------



## IC3D (Mar 20, 2013)

I think CTers are having an existential crisis brought on by modern life. I wonder if their brains are trying to skip to the next level of consciousness but are restrained by the cultural references of humanity and when they see Jews and lizards they are actually visualising human consciousness far into the future, something to think about.


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## 8den (Mar 20, 2013)

IC3D said:


> I think CTers are having an existential crisis brought on by modern life. I wonder if their brains are trying to skip to the next level of consciousness but are restrained by the cultural references of humanity and when they see Jews and lizards they are actually visualising human consciousness far into the future, something to think about.


 
No they're people with over active and unoriginal imaginations, delusions of grandeur, and a inability to look at the world rationally.


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## existentialist (Mar 20, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> The first rule of freemasonry is don't talk about the FEMA camps???


That's the second rule. We don't talk about the first r...oh.


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## equationgirl (Mar 20, 2013)

existentialist said:


> That's the second rule. We don't talk about the first r...oh.


That's you selling your apron on ebay then


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 21, 2013)

I never did get round to asking where they keep the nanothermite at shul. It might come in handy for other things apart from blowing up the world trade centre, like cooking and DIY.


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## equationgirl (Mar 21, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> I never did get round to asking where they keep the nanothermite at shul. It might come in handy for other things apart from blowing up the world trade centre, like cooking and DIY.


Worth asking, because you never know when you might need it and you don't want to find out it's 'in a safe place'...


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## Pickman's model (Mar 21, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> I never did get round to asking where they keep the nanothermite at shul. It might come in handy for other things apart from blowing up the world trade centre, like cooking and DIY.


It's in the kosher section in larger branches of tesco.


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## editor (Mar 21, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> I never did get round to asking where they keep the nanothermite at shul. It might come in handy for other things apart from blowing up the world trade centre, like cooking and DIY.


It's in the Holograms section which is, to be fair, quite hard to find.


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## Lemon Eddy (Mar 21, 2013)

existentialist said:


> Don't MENTION the FEMA camps!!!


 
I mentioned it once, but I think I got away with it.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 21, 2013)

Lemon Eddy said:


> I mentioned it once, but I think I got away with it.


SSSHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 21, 2013)

Passover is coming up and I knew I shouldn't have left the nanothermite buying until the last minute, i'm meant to be going to a passover meal and I won't have anything to carry out a controlled demolition of his house, or on the way there for that matter.


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## DotCommunist (Mar 21, 2013)

WTF? you promised me bombs and the end of all things


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## frogwoman (Mar 21, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> WTF? you promised me bombs and the end of all things


 
We'll still be able to eat a massive meal and listen to the story of freedom from slavery don't worry, there just won't be any towers crashing down sadly


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## sihhi (Mar 24, 2013)

Random said:


> My guess is that, even if it's not promoted, conspiracy nonsense in the US gets an easier ride from the authorities, doesn't get repressed like leftism or black power groups, since it's not seen as a political threat.


 
Of course it's not repressed - why on earth would it need repression? Repression costs resources - it can simply be monitored and left alone - hence why there are fathoms of the stuff coming out everywhere on all sorts of topics - particularly where personal alienation strikes hard - criticism of conventional medicine (alienation from capitalist medicine, health pressures of capitalist training and work), criticism of banking (financial firms in a non-regulated system), criticism of fertiliser agriculture sometimes extended as 'chem-trails' (increasing food prices at the same time as better, more sophisticated technology).
Capitalism creates conspiracy theories, if corporations and states wanted to end CTs (not talking about batcake lunacy Holocaust denial types) all they need to do is open up all their behaviour explicity - but they can't, so they don't and the cycle continues.

In countries where there is one state bank you don't get so many or as much as credence to CTs that say banking is the source of all problems, instead the stuff is about secret influence of particular minorities etc dominates.


----------



## sihhi (Mar 24, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> Shamir's a filthy blood libel promoting cunt.


 
Annoyingly, otherwise solid Counterpunch still publish his stuff including this bizarre defence of the Orthodox church and attack on PussyRiot:



> A radical charismatic opposition leader, the poet Eduard Limonov wrote that the opposition made a mistake supporting PR, as they antagonise the masses; the chasm between the masses and the opposition grows. But his voice was crying in the wilderness, and the rest of the opposition happily embraced the PR cause, trying to turn it into a weapon against Putin.


 
The Limonov quoted there positively is a far-right Nat-Bol, Captain Hurrah and other Russia watchers would know. Shamir is telling the Russian opposition why don't you listen to Limonov and stop protesting against Putin for the treatment and sentencing of the trio.


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## frogwoman (Mar 24, 2013)

sihhi said:


> Annoyingly, otherwise solid Counterpunch still publish his stuff including this bizarre defence of the Orthodox church and attack on PussyRiot:
> 
> 
> 
> The Limonov quoted there positively is a far-right Nat-Bol, Captain Hurrah and other Russia watchers would know. Shamir is telling the Russian opposition why don't you listen to Limonov and stop protesting against Putin for the treatment and sentencing of the trio.


 
you reckon? sadly that doesn't surprise me about counterpunch, they often seem to print "anti-imperialist" stuff which is a bit one sided to say the least. IIRC they also printed Diana Johnstone's stuff about Serbia and Albania although I could be wrong.

They do sometimes print interesting and good articles though.


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## frogwoman (Mar 24, 2013)

http://www.counterpunch.org/2005/10/12/srebrenica-revisited/ for example


----------



## sihhi (Mar 24, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> you reckon? sadly that doesn't surprise me about counterpunch, they often seem to print "anti-imperialist" stuff which is a bit one sided to say the least. IIRC they also printed Diana Johnstone's stuff about Serbia and Albania although I could be wrong.
> 
> They do sometimes print interesting and good articles though.


 
Perhaps you're right Counterpunch is degenerating - its stuff on immigration and I'd forgotten all about the Iran Ahmedinejad stuff, can't remember the Albania stuff - what were the claims?


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## frogwoman (Mar 24, 2013)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diana_Johnstone


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## sihhi (Mar 24, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> http://www.counterpunch.org/2005/10/12/srebrenica-revisited/ for example


 
Are you saying that's good or bad?


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## frogwoman (Mar 24, 2013)

That the Srebrenica massacre was exaggerated and the use of rape in the bosnian conflict was largely a myth among other things, shes also alleged to be a long standing friend of slobodan milosevic's wife. I am no great fan of the way that the Serbs have been demonised over the conflict but for fucks sake:

_Most journalists and historians have argued that Johnstone, in her 2003 book, also expresses doubts over the use of systematic rape in the war in Bosnia and the number of victims of rape, the authenticity of the Racak massacre in Kosovo, and the true figure of Bosnian war dead. The author itself affirms that these writers "reduce [her] book, as they reduce the Balkan conflict itself, to a certain number of notorious atrocities, and stigmatise whatever deviates from their own dualistic interpretation". Johnstone asserts that Fools' Crusade is "a documented analysis of the historical background and the political context of the wars of Yugoslavian disintegration."[7]_


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## frogwoman (Mar 24, 2013)

sihhi said:


> Are you saying that's good or bad?


 
I think it's obviously biased and it's an example of their frequently printing stuff that conforms to "anti-imperialist" views rather than necessarily examining the facts, her stuff about zionism and le pen is also a bit dodgy.


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## frogwoman (Mar 24, 2013)

http://www.counterpunch.org/2010/12/15/holbrooke-or-milosevic-who-is-the-greater-murderer/ theres also this:



> Holbrooke and Milosevic were born in the same year, 1941. *When Milosevic died in 2006, Holbrooke gave a long statement to the BBC without a single syllable of human kindness. "*This man wrecked the Balkans," said Holbrooke.
> "He was a war criminal who caused four wars, over 300,000 deaths, 2.5million homeless. Sometimes monsters make the biggest impacts on history – Hitler and Stalin – and such is the case with this gentleman."
> Holbrooke presented himself as goodness dealing with evil for a worthy cause. When negotiating with Milosevic, "you’re conscious of the fact that you’re sitting across the table from a monster whose role in history will be terrible and who has caused so many deaths."
> *Who was the monster? Nobody, including at the Hague tribunal where he died for lack of medical treatment, has ever actually proved that Milosevic was responsible for the tragic deaths in the wars of Yugoslav disintegration.* But Holbrooke was never put on trial for all the deaths in Vietnam, East Timor, Afghanistan, Iraq and, yes, former Yugoslavia, which resulted at least in part from the U.S. policies he carried out.


 
yes holbrooke is a cunt and yes the balkans war and our involvement was completely fucked but the article makes it sound as though milosevic, and not the people who's lives he and the other politicians ruined, (including the US/UK's) was the real victim in this.



> *In reality, there has never been any proof that Milosevic sought or obtained wealth for himself*, whereas Holbrooke was, among many other things, a vice chairman of Credit Suisse First Boston, managing director of Lehman Brothers, vice chairman of the private equity firm Perseus LLC, and a member of the board of directors of AIG, the American International Group, at a time when, according to Wikipedia, "the firm engaged in wildly speculative credit default insurance schemes that may cost the taxpayer hundreds of billions to prevent AIG from bringing down the entire financial system."
> 
> *Milosevic was on trial for years without ever being to present his defense before he died under troubling circumstances.* Holbrooke found that outcome perfectly satisfying: "I knew as soon as he reached The Hague that he’d never see daylight again and I think that justice was served in a weird way because he died in his cell, and that was the right thing to do."


 
eta There's this as well full of serbian nationalist rhetoric which borders at times on out and out racism:

http://www.counterpunch.org/2010/09/17/serbia-surrenders-kosovo-to-the-eu/



> United States policy toward the region has been heavily influenced by ethnic lobbies that have pledged allegiance to Washington in return for unconditional support of their nationalist aims. This is particularly the case of the rag-tag Albanian lobby in the United States, *an odd mixture of dull-witted politicians and gun-running pizza parlor owners* who flattered the Clinton administration into promising them their own statelet carved out of historic Serbia. The result has been “independent” Kosovo, in reality occupied by a major US military base, Camp Bondsteel, NATO-commanded pacifiers and an EU mission theoretically trying to introduce a modicum of legal order into what amounts to a failing state run by clans and living off various criminal activities. Since Camp Bondsteel is untouchable, and *the grateful hoodlums have erected a giant statue to their hero, Bill Clinton*, in their capital, Pristina, Washington is content with this situation.
> But many in Europe are not. It is Europe, not the United States, that has to deal with *violent Kosovo gangsters peddling dope and women in its cities.* It is Europe, not the United States, that has this mess on its doorstep.
> The media continue to peddle the 1999 fairy tale in which heroic NATO rescued the *defenseless “Kosovars” from a hypothetical “genocide”* (which never took place and never would have taken place), but European governments are in a position to know better.


 
I know that the Serbian atrocities in Kosovo were heavily exaggerated and anti-serb atrocities by the KLA and by the Tudjman regime largely ignored bythe west and by the ICTY tribunal but is this shit really acceptable, to conflate the idea of albanian gangsters and kosovo and basically deny that atrocities took place under milosevic's regime?



> On October 5, 2000, the regular presidential election process in Yugoslavia was boisterously interrupted by what the West described as a “democratic revolution” against the “dictator”, president Slobodan Milosevic. In reality, the “dictator” was about to enter the run-off round of the Yugoslav presidential election in which he seemed likely to lose to the main opposition candidate, Vojislav Kostunica. But the United States trained and incited the athletically inclined youth organization, Otpor (“resistance”), to take to the streets and set fire to the parliament in front of international television, to give the impression of a popular uprising. Probably, the scenarists modeled this show on the equally stage-managed overthrow of the Ceaucescu couple in Rumania at Christmas 1989, which ended in their murder following one of the shortest kangaroo court trials in history.
> 
> For the generally ignorant world at large, being overthrown would be proof that Milosevic was really a “dictator” like Ceaucescu, whereas being defeated in an election would have tended to prove the opposite.


 
i know a bit about romania and the ceaucescu regime - it wasn't started by the west (although elements of the romanian opposition were probably supported by the west), it began as a popular uprising by, among others, striking miners and spread over the next few weeks to other parts of the country. Ceaucescu was at one point courted by the British and American governments during a period when he was becoming more critical of the USSR. How is it possible for a left leaning magazine to print such stuff uncritically?


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 24, 2013)

sorry for the long c and p, i'm just really not a big fan of them in general.


----------



## sihhi (Mar 24, 2013)

She is of a conspiracist approach and the eagerness to defend Le Pen sickening, but it's not impossible that her investigations might have merit. The evidence for Bosnian nationalist inflation of numbers of rapes by Serb soldiers is there, it's not just conjured from nothing - it's a key tactic in mobilising funds from the Middle East and securing diplomatic support from the West.
Azerbaijan tries it on for its Muslim support base in its war with Armenia at around the same time - few in the West remember much of this war, or the claims made, but the figures of rapes of Bosnians are used as totemic banners. I don't have Diana Johnstone's book, and I haven't read the detailed refutations of it, so I can't wholly judge.


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 24, 2013)

Oh yeah sihhi a lot of it was definitely exaggerated and the NATO bombing/intervention into Serbia was fucking disgusting when you consider how they turned a blind eye to anti-serb atrocities, but maybe I'm just being sensitive or whatever but it seems to me that from what she's writing there's a lot of her stuff that's pretty borderline.


----------



## sihhi (Mar 24, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> I know that the Serbian atrocities in Kosovo were heavily exaggerated and anti-serb atrocities by the KLA and by the Tudjman regime largely ignored bythe west and by the ICTY tribunal but is this shit really acceptable, to conflate the idea of albanian gangsters and kosovo and basically deny that atrocities took place under milosevic's regime?
> 
> i know a bit about romania and the ceaucescu regime - it wasn't started by the west, it began as a popular uprising by, among others, striking miners and spread over the next few weeks to other parts of the country. How is it possible for a left leaning magazine to print such stuff uncritically?


 
No, it's not acceptable. Not sure how I've missed them/it from my radar.

It uses elements of truth there are Albanian ex-KLA networks still operating, and there are Kosovars here who will say they prefer being in London than ever returning home however bad it gets because the criminals run the new country to produce a dangerous/absurd conclusion based on Europe needing to "deal with violent Kosovo gangsters peddling dope and women in its cities".


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 24, 2013)

aye but it's quite similar to a lot of serb nationalist stuff which basically equates the whole of kosovo's albanian population to gangsters (her using stuff like "grateful hoodlums" etc) says that the population growth of the albanian population was a deliberate plot to "outbreed" the serb population and that most of them arrived from albania in the 70s whereas most were descended from people who had been there for centuries, a bit like zionist arguments about how "there are no palestinians".

I agree with you though. the whole "independence" of kosovo was majorly fucked up and the new regime is basically riddled with criminality, serbs and gypsies are heavily discriminated against (not forgetting that camp bondsteel site), I just don't think that criticising that means we should necessarily side with the likes of her.


----------



## sihhi (Mar 24, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> aye but it's quite similar to a lot of serb nationalist stuff which basically equates the whole of kosovo's albanian population to gangsters (her using stuff like "grateful hoodlums" etc) says that the population growth of the albanian population was a deliberate plot to "outbreed" the serb population and that most of them arrived from albania in the 70s whereas most were descended from people who had been there for centuries, a bit like zionist arguments about how "there are no palestinians".
> 
> I agree with you though. the whole "independence" of kosovo was majorly fucked up and the new regime is basically riddled with criminality, serbs and gypsies are heavily discriminated against (not forgetting that camp bondsteel site), I just don't think that criticising that means we should necessarily side with the likes of her.


 
No of course not, I sort off remember the Johnstone controversy ages ago in 2003-2004 at the ten year anniversary, but the later stuff now is just vile.

By the way, are you following the ongoing saga of the Kosovo organ harvesting trial? It also features Moldovan victims. The former Kosovo Prime MInister is heavily implicated.


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 24, 2013)

sihhi said:


> No of course not, I sort off remember the Johnstone controversy ages ago in 2003-2004 at the ten year anniversary, but the later stuff now is just vile.
> 
> By the way, are you following the ongoing saga of the Kosovo organ harvesting trial? It also features Moldovan victims. The former Kosovo Prime MInister is heavily implicated.


 
I haven't been following it, no, although I did a little bit when the story broke and when my views on this stuff were a bit different to they are today, i used to be a bit of an "anti-imperialist" myself when it came to this stuff.

It seems almost, unbelievable too horrible to be true although a lot of awful shit occurred with all sides during that war.


----------



## sihhi (Mar 24, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> I haven't been following it, no, although I did a little bit when the story broke and when my views on this stuff were a bit different to they are today, i used to be a bit of an "anti-imperialist" myself when it came to this stuff.
> 
> It seems almost, unbelievable too horrible to be true although a lot of awful shit occurred with all sides during that war.


 
The latest stuff just news googling is that it carried on up to 2008-2009 with the Ministry of Health giving a surgeon a permit for a new clinic even after he had been struck for unnecessary operations.  

There's an interview with the EU prosecutor who happens to be Canadian on CBC here.

"It all began in 2008 when a young Turkish man collapsed at the Pristina Airport. He told authorities that someone had stolen his kidney. He led police to the Medicus clinic. Police now believe the clinic to be the hub of an organ trafficking ring. Seven people are standing trial, including a former government health official. They're accused of luring impoverished Russians, Moldovans and Turks to sell their kidneys with promises of big cash pay outs. Authorities say the promises were false. But there is lots of cash involved. The police believe the clinic received up to $200,000 per operation from foreigners willing to pay for a new organ."


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 24, 2013)

sihhi said:


> The latest stuff just news googling is that it carried on up to 2008-2009 with the Ministry of Health giving a surgeon a permit for a new clinic even after he had been struck for unnecessary operations.
> 
> There's an interview with the EU prosecutor who happens to be Canadian on CBC here.
> 
> "It all began in 2008 when a young Turkish man collapsed at the Pristina Airport. He told authorities that someone had stolen his kidney. He led police to the Medicus clinic. Police now believe the clinic to be the hub of an organ trafficking ring. Seven people are standing trial, including a former government health official. They're accused of luring impoverished Russians, Moldovans and Turks to sell their kidneys with promises of big cash pay outs. Authorities say the promises were false. But there is lots of cash involved. The police believe the clinic received up to $200,000 per operation from foreigners willing to pay for a new organ."


----------



## SpineyNorman (Mar 24, 2013)

Delroy Booth said:


> pft, everyone knows that this freemasonary stuff is just mis-direction being pulled by the _real_ secret society that rules the world.


 
Bollocks. Everyone knows the real string pullers are the Chiswick Townswomens Guild.


----------



## fractionMan (Mar 25, 2013)

OMG I knew it was fishy.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Apr 10, 2013)

The idiots are still reporting that he somehow won his case 

http://www.activistpost.com/2013/04/uk-man-wins-court-victory-over-bbc-for.html


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## existentialist (Apr 10, 2013)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> The idiots are still reporting that he somehow won his case :faceplam:
> 
> http://www.activistpost.com/2013/04/uk-man-wins-court-victory-over-bbc-for.html


I expect Jazzz will be along soon to protest at how foolishly they have misrepresented the truth, and how it's all just part of a NWO plot to make them look like a bunch of gibbering reality-avoiding loons.

Also, you mis-spelled ""


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## beesonthewhatnow (Apr 10, 2013)

fixed


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## tufty79 (Apr 14, 2013)

it's just popped up on my facebook feed
http://  topinfopost.  com/archives/575 


> This is very good news. I think most sane people know that 9/11 was an inside job.





> the court ageed that the bbc lied about 9/11


----------



## editor (Apr 14, 2013)

tufty79 said:


> it's just popped up on my facebook feed


I've broken that link because we'd only being doing a disservice to the human race if we assisted that site in its search engine rankings.


----------



## Jon-of-arc (Apr 14, 2013)

tufty79 said:


> it's just popped up on my facebook feed



If you waste your time watching the video that links to, the twat tony Brooke claims he "didn't get convicted".  

Seriously, if these people can't get a basic grasp of the fairly uncomplicated legal proceedings that have just happened to them, and will have been explained in a script read to every convicted criminal, pitched at the least intelligent of a bunch who often aren't that bright, to leave no room for misunderstanding, then how can they expect us to believe they understand Isaac Newton (a name they invoke in the video as evidence of truther rightness...)?


----------



## Kaka Tim (Apr 14, 2013)

tufty79 said:


> it's just popped up on my facebook feed
> http:// topinfopost. com/archives/575


 
hah - mine too. It there a brief debunking of this pile of nonsense I can post in reply?


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## editor (Apr 14, 2013)

Kaka Tim said:


> hah - mine too. It there a brief debunking of this pile of nonsense I can post in reply?


This post is a good start:


Roadkill said:


> Five observations:
> 
> 1. The loons can't even spell their own man's name right.
> 2. It wasn't in any sense a victory: he was hauled up for not paying his TV licence and convicted. The fact the court decided to give him a conditional discharge just means that the District Judge let him off lightly for reasons best known to himself.
> ...


----------



## fogbat (Apr 14, 2013)

A fine reminder of the importance of regularly pruning one's Facebook friend list.


----------



## Jazzz (Apr 15, 2013)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> The idiots are still reporting that he somehow won his case
> 
> http://www.activistpost.com/2013/04/uk-man-wins-court-victory-over-bbc-for.html


Yes I noticed that article. It is indeed ridiculous to claim he 'won a court victory' when the bottom line is that he was found guilty. It's no good at all for a truth movement.


----------



## editor (Apr 15, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> It's no good at all for a truth movement.


I'd say it's a perfect representation of how the 'truth movement' deals with reality.


----------



## editor (Apr 15, 2013)

editor said:


> I'd say it's a perfect representation of how the 'truth movement' deals with reality.


And for an update to that, just look how that loathsome piece of shit Alex Jones has just responded to the Boston bombing. He spreads fear more effectively than terrorists.


----------



## Jazzz (Apr 16, 2013)

editor said:


> And for an update to that, just look how that loathsome piece of shit Alex Jones has just responded to the Boston bombing. He spreads fear more effectively than terrorists.


Well this one has false flag written all over it.

Amazing that it's already known there was a 'drill' involving bomb sniffing dogs at the finish line. We can add this highly coincidental drill to the 7/7 bombings drill which almost perfectly mirrored the attack, and the 9/11 drills - 25 of them - which involved air hijackings and a plane crash into a high-rise government building

If you are anywhere near a terror-related drill, run as fast as you can


----------



## Voley (Apr 16, 2013)

Oh fucking hell.


----------



## Roadkill (Apr 16, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> Well this one has false flag written all over it.


----------



## Dan U (Apr 16, 2013)

Tedious as it is predictable.


----------



## Roadkill (Apr 16, 2013)

Dan U said:


> Tedious as it is predictable.


 
And as sad.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Apr 16, 2013)

What number rule was 'it's always a conspiracy'?


----------



## Roadkill (Apr 16, 2013)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> What number rule was 'it's always a conspiracy'?


 
Ten.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 16, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> Well this one has false flag written all over it.
> 
> Amazing that it's already known there was a 'drill' involving bomb sniffing dogs at the finish line. We can add this highly coincidental drill to the 7/7 bombings drill which almost perfectly mirrored the attack, and the 9/11 drills - 25 of them - which involved air hijackings and a plane crash into a high-rise government building
> 
> If you are anywhere near a terror-related drill, run as fast as you can


Oh dear, oh dear. If was as you say a false flag op why is the death toll so low? If you believe they could do 3000 in '01 then why can't they do 30 in '13?


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 16, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> Well this one has false flag written all over it.


 
Less than 24hrs after people have been killed and maimed, this graceless arsehole is attempting to fit it into his fucked-up agenda.

Fuck off.


----------



## Dan U (Apr 16, 2013)

Is there any world event not controlled by a small cohort of jew lizards? 

Wanker


----------



## existentialist (Apr 16, 2013)

Spymaster said:


> Less than 24hrs after people have been killed and maimed, this arse is attempting to fit it into his fucked-up agenda.
> 
> Fuck off.


It just goes to show how far he is prepared to go in drawing unfounded conclusions from evidence it is simply too early to have.


----------



## two sheds (Apr 16, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> Yes I noticed that article. It is indeed ridiculous to claim he 'won a court victory' when the bottom line is that he was found guilty. It's no good at all for a truth movement.


 
Fucking hell Jazzz - you type that and then give the false flag shit the day after the Boston bomb before there's any actual information. It's like your brain is infected with something that makes you sneeze every time you see a bright light.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 16, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> Well this one has false flag written all over it.


And you have useless mug written all over you.


----------



## editor (Apr 16, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> Well this one has false flag written all over it.


Based on what, Jazzz? Your own paranoid fantasies that are never, ever backed up by anything resembling facts or actual evidence.

People like you spread more fear than terrorists. You're doing their job for them.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Apr 16, 2013)

editor said:


> Based on what, Jazzz? Your own paranoid fantasies that are never, ever backed up by anything resembling facts or actual evidence.
> 
> People like you spread more fear than terrorists. You're doing their job for them.


 
I think you overrate their importance tbh. How many people read Jazzz's posts and feel afraid compared to those who point and laugh or just ignore him?


----------



## editor (Apr 16, 2013)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> I think you overrate their importance tbh. How many people read Jazzz's posts and feel afraid compared to those who point and laugh or just ignore him?


I specifically said 'people like you' because the web is already crawling with these 'false flag' claims. Here they get challenged and torn apart. In certain parts of the web, they spread like wildfire are are - seemingly - taken as fact.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 16, 2013)

That bloke who stands on the side of the waltzer and spins the cars round as they go by, that's what people like jazz do, except they're all in the cars and all spinning each other round faster and faster.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Apr 16, 2013)

editor said:


> I specifically said 'people like you' because the web is already crawling with these 'false flag' claims. Here they get challenged and torn apart. In certain parts of the web, they spread like wildfire are are - seemingly - taken as fact.


 
Mostly by their own bunch of inward looking loons though as far as I can tell. Who seem to feel more of a smug feeling of self satisfaction than fear.


----------



## editor (Apr 16, 2013)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> Mostly by their own bunch of inward looking loons though as far as I can tell. Who seem to feel more of a smug feeling of self satisfaction than fear.


I've already seen at least three normally fairly rational people on my Facebook feed proclaiming this as a false flag operation.


----------



## William of Walworth (Apr 16, 2013)

Fuckit, I didn't even know there'd been a bomb in Boston until now (I tend to update myself on here ahead of checking the BBC etc  ).

Good job I never rely on Jazzz for updates ...


----------



## Jazzz (Apr 16, 2013)

> *UM Coach: Bomb Sniffing Dogs, Spotters on Roofs Before Explosions*
> 
> University of Mobile’s Cross Country Coach, who was near the finish line of the Boston Marathon when a series of explosions went off, said he thought it was odd there were bomb sniffing dogs at the start and finish lines.
> 
> ...


 
http://www.local15tv.com/news/local...Spotters-on-Roofs/BrirjAzFPUKKN8z6eSDJEA.cspx


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 16, 2013)

Fancy having stuff like that at an event like that. Why on earth would they?


----------



## goldenecitrone (Apr 16, 2013)

Are you Gold Standard on there, jazzz?



> Makes you wonder. They were running drills in the London bombing at the same place those bombs exploded, they we running drills for NATO at the WTC on 9/11, they were running drills the same day at Columbine, they were running FEMA drills near Newtown the day of those shootings. Now running drills at the Boston Marathon.?


 
We had a fire drill at work today. Obviously the government are planning to burn down our college tomorrow.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Apr 16, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> http://www.local15tv.com/news/local...Spotters-on-Roofs/BrirjAzFPUKKN8z6eSDJEA.cspx


You're a right cunt at times like this.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 16, 2013)

Times like this are nothing to do with it really.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 16, 2013)

editor said:


> I've already seen at least three normally fairly rational people on my Facebook feed proclaiming this as a false flag operation.


how many of them have you defriended on the strength of this lunacy?


----------



## Jazzz (Apr 16, 2013)

goldenecitrone said:


> Are you Gold Standard on there, jazzz?
> 
> We had a fire drill at work today. Obviously the government are planning to burn down our college tomorrow.


If there was a fire at your work, the chance of the fire coinciding with a drill would be...?


----------



## editor (Apr 17, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> If there was a fire at your work, the chance of the fire coinciding with a drill would be...?


If you're basing your entire false flag claim on this, surely you've already thoroughly researched these facts and know exactly how many drills take place per building per year, and the amount of people involved?

No? Then your theory is _worthless. _


----------



## goldenecitrone (Apr 17, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> If there was a fire at your work, the chance of the fire coinciding with a drill would be...?


 
Well, we have about six drills a year, so a one in sixty chance. Far from impossible.


----------



## Buddy Bradley (Apr 17, 2013)

goldenecitrone said:


> Well, we have about six drills a year, so a one in sixty chance. Far from impossible.


That pre-supposes that you have one fire every year. #statisticsfail


----------



## Zapp Brannigan (Apr 17, 2013)

Marathon winning standard of conclusion-jumping here.

"There were bomb sniffer dogs!!!  That must mean they KNEW ABOUT THE BOMBS!!!"

A question for you Jazzz.  If you, as a police force, have (1) highly trained sniffer dogs and (2) an extremely high profile sporting event with thousands of spectators in an un-ticketed public arena, do you:

(a) leave the dogs at home for a day off?
or
(b) take the dogs out for a sniff around?




Jazzz said:


> If there was a fire at your work, the chance of the fire coinciding with a drill would be...?


 
No, you're right.  Yeah, it's a coincidence that there were sniffer dogs on marathon day


----------



## 8ball (Apr 17, 2013)

Buddy Bradley said:


> That pre-supposes that you have one fire every year. #statisticsfail


 
Don't hashtags only work on Twitter? 

(I'm not well up on this new internet stuff)


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Apr 17, 2013)

Zapp Brannigan said:


> Marathon winning standard of conclusion-jumping here.
> 
> "There were bomb sniffer dogs!!! That must mean they KNEW ABOUT THE BOMBS!!!"
> 
> ...


 
Say the police had decided not to bring the dogs, and the bombs had gone off. I wonder if Jazzz's mates would be going 'the lack of dogs clearly suggests they had no idea there might be an explosion.'


----------



## William of Walworth (Apr 17, 2013)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> Say the police had decided not to bring the dogs, and the bombs had gone off. I wonder if Jazzz's mates would be going 'the lack of dogs clearly suggests they had no idea there might be an explosion.'


 
Or that they had _all too clear an idea_, and kept the dogs away deliberately ...

Any logic-leap is possible in Loonworld.


----------



## TruXta (Apr 17, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Fancy having stuff like that at an event like that. Why on earth would they?


It's a bit like how women who wear short skirts are to blame for getting raped.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 17, 2013)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> Say the police had decided not to bring the dogs, and the bombs had gone off. I wonder if Jazzz's mates would be going 'the lack of dogs clearly suggests they had no idea there might be an explosion.'


 
Surely "the dogs were left at home to prevent the devices from being discovered".


----------



## William of Walworth (Apr 17, 2013)

Spymaster said:


> Surely "the dogs were left at home to prevent the devices from being discovered".


 
Beat you to it!


----------



## mauvais (Apr 17, 2013)

If pretty much every single world event that ever happens is a conspiracy, doesn't it turn the whole affair inside out?

If you go to the shops, buy a loaf of bread and come back home unscathed, isn't that itself mysterious? You have to ask the question: 'Why did They let that happen to me? What's wrong with this Warburtons Farmhouse 800g? What subplot have I missed?'

I imagine that the only answer is to kill yourself. Pow, outfoxed! Noone expects that!

Certainly not me.


----------



## captainmission (Apr 17, 2013)

I think brasseye beat you to it jazz


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Apr 17, 2013)

Spymaster said:


> Surely "the dogs were left at home to prevent the devices from being discovered".


 
Exactly. Bringing the dogs or not, both clearly support the conspiracy argument in their eyes.


----------



## Dan U (Apr 17, 2013)

goldenecitrone said:


> Well, we have about six drills a year, so a one in sixty chance. Far from impossible.


 
enough to win the Grand National in fact.

I saw some horrific picture earlier of the guy with his legs blown off with a supposed analysis by a 'SFX expert' dismissing his injuries as fake.

who the fuck are these cunts. and why does Jazzz like them so much


----------



## editor (Apr 17, 2013)

Dan U said:


> enough to win the Grand National in fact.
> 
> I saw some horrific picture earlier of the guy with his legs blown off with a supposed analysis by a 'SFX expert' dismissing his injuries as fake.


No, really? That disgusts me. Who is this filthy 'SFX expert' scumbag (broken link, if you please!)


----------



## 8ball (Apr 17, 2013)

editor said:


> No, really? That disgusts me. Who is this filthy 'SFX expert' scumbag (broken link, if you please!)


 
I imagine it's some idiot who watched 'Braindead' once - not worth anyone's time.


----------



## Zapp Brannigan (Apr 17, 2013)

Right then Jazzz or any other lunatic, i'm confused.  Which is it?

(a) the government [knew about]/[planted]* the bombs because of the sniffer dogs to create a climate of fear and justify the introduction of further attacks on civil liberties for the average Freeman On The Land;

or

(b) there weren't any bombs, the photos of limbless "victims" are fake.  It's all a big con to create a climate of fear and justify the introduction of further attacks on civil liberties for the average Freeman On The Land.

*delete as applicable



I doth detect dissent among the deranged fringe.


----------



## Voley (Apr 17, 2013)

Dan U said:


> I saw some horrific picture earlier of the guy with his legs blown off with a supposed analysis by a 'SFX expert' dismissing his injuries as fake.
> 
> who the fuck are these cunts. and why does Jazzz like them so much


Someone at work mentioned that today. They also said someone has dug up some photo that purports to be the same bloke in a military uniform, as if this proves anything, even if true. I'm not googling, before you ask. This stuff fucking sickens me.


----------



## Dan U (Apr 17, 2013)

editor said:


> No, really? That disgusts me. Who is this filthy 'SFX expert' scumbag (broken link, if you please!)


 
too cowardly to put an actual name to it it seems on second viewing. according to the site i saw this on, the original picture has been altered to fix the narrative being given.




Spoiler



https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/ hphotos-ak-snc7/420814_10151451264510674_724706957_n.jpg




who are these cunts? who does this shit on purpose.

*editor - link put behind a spoiler


----------



## goldenecitrone (Apr 17, 2013)

Buddy Bradley said:


> That pre-supposes that you have one fire every year. #statisticsfail


 
How did you know I worked for Lewes Bonfire Council?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 17, 2013)

goldenecitrone said:


> How did you know I worked for Lewes Bonfire Council?


there are as yet undiscovered tribes in the amazon rain forest who know what you do.


----------



## barney_pig (Apr 18, 2013)

Zapp Brannigan said:


> Right then Jazzz or any other lunatic, i'm confused.  Which is it?
> 
> (a) the government [knew about]/[planted]* the bombs because of the sniffer dogs to create a climate of fear and justify the introduction of further attacks on civil liberties for the average Freeman On The Land;
> 
> ...


How terribly linear and logisheeple of you. Through the properly medicinal application of ones penis to the light socket and regular infusions of yak urine, it is possible for he liberated mind to overcome Jew inspired unipolarity and believe two or more wildly different piles of bollocks at the same time


----------



## 8den (Apr 18, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> Well this one has false flag written all over it.
> 
> Amazing that it's already known there was a 'drill' involving bomb sniffing dogs at the finish line. We can add this highly coincidental drill to the 7/7 bombings drill which almost perfectly mirrored the attack, and the 9/11 drills - 25 of them - which involved air hijackings and a plane crash into a high-rise government building
> 
> If you are anywhere near a terror-related drill, run as fast as you can


 

Oh really FUCK OFF JAZZZ.

You know damn well that

A) The Drill was a paper exercise for a london firm that had 6 people sitting around a table that had no command or relationship with London Emergency services. and to back that up no commuter on the day every reported seeing or hearing anything about a drill at any point.

B) Of course anyone wanting to do a drill about a terror attack on the under ground will use Kings Cross as a example, because the 80s fire gives people real information as to how a emergency at that station would enfold.

C) NO STATIONS WERE ATTACKED. NONE ALL THE TRAINS WERE IN OF STATIONS.

This is purile bullshit Jazzz, as a London commuter you should know all this is bullshit.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 18, 2013)

Jazzz, can you envisage a terrorist event that you _wouldn't_ regard as NWO/false flag/bloodlines related?  What would it be about that event that would stop you seeing it in those terms?  And if you are willing to answer those questions, can you see where I'm going?


----------



## Wilf (Apr 18, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> If there was a fire at your work, the chance of the fire coinciding with a drill would be...?


 Just about the same chance as a fire happening at any time.

The chances of intelligent life evolving on a specific planet are extremely rare (right elements, temp, gravity etc). What do you read off from the fact that this planet has intelligent life?  Does it prove intelligent design arguments or simply that very rare events have to still happen somewhere?


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 18, 2013)

this is the thing about how nothing anymore is deemed as a normal, nothing to hide here, runof the mill attack. Its all a big game being played by the lizards and the troofers are the people who've seen it.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 18, 2013)

And if you think about it the conspiracist approach is actually the sort of approach / politics that could create a justification for terrorism. If you think about how they see themselves versus how they see the rest of the world, and how they see big spectacular "events" and their place in society/how we are manipulated.


----------



## goldenecitrone (Apr 18, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> this is the thing about how nothing anymore is deemed as a normal, nothing to hide here, runof the mill attack. Its all a big game being played by the lizards and the troofers are the people who've seen it.


 
This is how paranoid schizophrenics have viewed the world for donkey's years. Instead of boring people in the pub like they used to do, they now have a worldwide audience of gullible saps hanging on their every word. Must be very gratifying, not to mention a nice little earner.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 18, 2013)

I don't think the people who market this stuff and make money out of this are paranoid schizophrenics. quite the opposite to be honest. i think that many of the people who are taken in by this stuff are clearly severely mentally ill and especially the ones who are buying all these crystals and other shit are clearly being failed in the "duty of care" by these parasites conning them out of money.


----------



## goldenecitrone (Apr 18, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> I don't think the people who market this stuff and make money out of this are paranoid schizophrenics. quite the opposite to be honest. i think that many of the people who are taken in by this stuff are clearly severely mentally ill and especially the ones who are buying all these crystals and other shit are clearly being failed in the "duty of care" by these parasites conning them out of money.


 
Does the name David Icke ring any bells.


----------



## Jazzz (Apr 19, 2013)

Wilf said:


> Just about the same chance as a fire happening at any time.


No, goldencitrone was correct for his workplace.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 19, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> No, goldencitrone was correct for his workplace.


Oooh, you're back! Right what about this one?



> Jazzz, can you envisage a terrorist event that you _wouldn't_ regard as NWO/false flag/bloodlines related? What would it be about that event that would stop you seeing it in those terms? And if you are willing to answer those questions, can you see where I'm going?


----------



## Wilf (Apr 19, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> No, goldencitrone was correct for his workplace.


I'm sure he was.  That of course isn't the point.  Whenever a fire takes place, _something_ of apparent significance also happened: fire drill, new caterers started, boss wore a paisley tie... The question is why _you_ think they are _linked_, why would false flaggers draw attention to their own actions??  Anyway, back on fire drills, the millions of those that are done each year *will* innevitably coincide with real fires. Yes, no?


----------



## Jazzz (Apr 19, 2013)

Well okay Wilf. Genuine terrorist events (rather than 'false flags') tend to have three things:

1) suicides do not take place unless they are necessary to execute the attack. E.g. the Palestinian suicide bombers conceal the bombs on their body because that's the only way they can get the bomb close to their target.

2) They are accompanied by clear claims of responsibility and demands. That is the point of them.

3) They don't coincide with a terror drill at the same place or nearby.

That's a brief checklist.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 19, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> Well okay Wilf. Genuine terrorist events (rather than 'false flags') tend to have three things:
> 
> 1) suicides do not take place unless they are necessary to execute the attack. E.g. the Palestinian suicide bombers conceal the bombs on their body because that's the only way they can get the bomb close to their target.
> 
> ...


Can you name some Genuine terrorist events?


----------



## Wilf (Apr 19, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> Well okay Wilf. Genuine terrorist events (rather than 'false flags') tend to have three things:
> 
> 1) suicides do not take place unless they are necessary to execute the attack. E.g. the Palestinian suicide bombers conceal the bombs on their body because that's the only way they can get the bomb close to their target.
> 
> ...


Well, I'd like to explore each of these, why they make things 'genuine' - for example, why on earth conspiracists would expose themselves to _further_ risk by also organising 'drills' at the same time. However, more to the point and just so we know, does the absence of 1, 2, 3 above define a terrorist event as organised by the new world order - or do you have further tests?


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 19, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> Well okay Wilf. Genuine terrorist events (rather than 'false flags') tend to have three things:
> 
> 1) suicides do not take place unless they are necessary to execute the attack. E.g. the Palestinian suicide bombers conceal the bombs on their body because that's the only way they can get the bomb close to their target.
> 
> ...


Please can you post some substantiation for these claims, for example can you link to any credible sources examining a number of attacks around the world over the past few decades (needed for a reasonable sample size)?

Thank you.


----------



## Jazzz (Apr 19, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> Please can you post some substantiation for these claims, for example can you link to any credible sources examining a number of attacks around the world over the past few decades (needed for a reasonable sample size)?
> 
> Thank you.


No.


----------



## Jazzz (Apr 19, 2013)

Wilf said:


> Well, I'd like to explore each of these, why they make things 'genuine' - for example, why on earth conspiracists would expose themselves to _further_ risk by also organising 'drills' at the same time. However, more to the point and just so we know, does the absence of 1, 2, 3 above define a terrorist event as organised by the new world order - or do you have further tests?


It's not definitive, but I would likely think genuine a terror attack which passes those tests.


----------



## cesare (Apr 19, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Can you name some Genuine terrorist events?


 
Jazzz?


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 19, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> No.


So these are your musings then? Your opinions? Or are these generally accepted by the conspiracy theorist ?

Can you name any genuine (according to your criteria) terrorist events, Jazzz?


----------



## J Ed (Apr 19, 2013)

Jazzz if the Jews/Lizards/Masons are so powerful and can cover so much up why don't they murder you in your sleep to stop you from exposing them?


----------



## Jazzz (Apr 19, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> So these are your musings then? Your opinions? Or are these generally accepted by the conspiracy theorist ?
> 
> Can you name any genuine (according to your criteria) terrorist events, Jazzz?


They are official criteria.

Of course you can find 'genuine' terrorist events. Take any claimed by the IRA, ETA, or PLO for instance, as they were 'genuine' terrorist organisations who claimed their own stuff. There's quite a few there. Of course the Palestinian suicide bombings were already covered in my answer to Wilf. Of course there are many others. I don't really see the point of this.


----------



## cesare (Apr 19, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> They are official criteria.
> 
> Of course you can find 'genuine' terrorist events. Take any claimed by the IRA, ETA, or PLO for instance, as they were 'genuine' terrorist organisations who claimed their own stuff. There's quite a few there. Of course the Palestinian suicide bombings were already covered in my answer to Wilf. Of course there are many others. I don't really see the point of this.


How do you know that the governments of these organisations didn't set them up and run them?


----------



## Zapp Brannigan (Apr 19, 2013)

If a would-be team of bombers found out about an anti-terrorism drill, would that not be a good time to kick off?  The public wouldn't know any different because we're not party to details of the drill, but for the emergency response teams involved it would be extremely confusing; for a time they might even be stretched 2 ways, the "faked" attack and the real one.


----------



## Bob_the_lost (Apr 19, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> Well this one has false flag written all over it.
> 
> Amazing that it's already known there was a 'drill' involving bomb sniffing dogs at the finish line. We can add this highly coincidental drill to the 7/7 bombings drill which almost perfectly mirrored the attack, and the 9/11 drills - 25 of them - which involved air hijackings and a plane crash into a high-rise government buildingI read this n my mobile and assumed it was an ironic troll. It works better that way
> 
> If you are anywhere near a terror-related drill, run as fast as you can


----------



## Dan U (Apr 19, 2013)

Well those false flag terrorists are currently killing policemen and detonating bombs in a shoot out in Boston. 

That's dedication to their Lizard leaders. 

Or. They are terrorists.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 19, 2013)

Jazzz said:
			
		

> They are official criteria.



Are they really. Whose official criteria are they and where can we see them?


----------



## Dan U (Apr 19, 2013)

hey jazz, here are a load of actors being watched by some lizard employed bloke in his apartment

https://twitter.com/AKitz

idiot.


----------



## two sheds (Apr 19, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Are they really. Whose official criteria are they and where can we see them?


 
The official criteria of the people who do the false flag operations so of course they're going to know 

and publicise them.


----------



## mauvais (Apr 19, 2013)

Jazzz, have you ever considered that _you _might be a government plant?

I mean, you do draw everyone into a endlessly spiralling discussion about unlikely conspiracies, whilst perhaps the real sleight of hand goes unseen.

Perhaps you could check your wrists for strings.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 19, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> Well this one has false flag written all over it.
> 
> Amazing that it's already known there was a 'drill' involving bomb sniffing dogs at the finish line. We can add this highly coincidental drill to the 7/7 bombings drill which almost perfectly mirrored the attack, and the 9/11 drills - 25 of them - which involved air hijackings and a plane crash into a high-rise government building
> 
> If you are anywhere near a terror-related drill, run as fast as you can


 
What _exactly_ are you suggesting here, that the conspirators use these drills as cover to plant the bombs?


----------



## Apathy (Apr 19, 2013)

I'm on ur boardz etc


----------



## 8den (Apr 19, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> Well okay Wilf. Genuine terrorist events (rather than 'false flags') tend to have three things:
> 
> 1) suicides do not take place unless they are necessary to execute the attack. E.g. the Palestinian suicide bombers conceal the bombs on their body because that's the only way they can get the bomb close to their target.


 
Bullshit. Islamic terrorists see suicide as a martyrdom attack which will grant them access to Jannah.



> 2) They are accompanied by clear claims of responsibility and demands. That is the point of them.


 
Like the videos the 9/11 attackers and 7/7 bombers left?



> 3) They don't coincide with a terror drill at the same place or nearby.
> 
> That's a brief checklist.


 
So a government preparing for a terrorist attack is going to be a victim of a "terrorist" attack flawless logic there jazzz.


----------



## Bob_the_lost (Apr 19, 2013)

3 in particular is bullshit. It assumes perfect knowledge on the part of terrorists to avoid drills. Which in turn implies that the ones where there are no drills are the ones planned by 'Them'...


----------



## Wilf (Apr 19, 2013)

Bob_the_lost said:


> 3 in particular is bullshit. It assumes perfect knowledge on the part of terrorists to avoid drills. Which in turn implies that the ones where there are no drills are the ones planned by 'Them'...


This one bemuses me most of all. There's the obvious issue of _why_, why would special ops false flaggers draw attention to terrorism just as they were about to do it? However there's also the issue of complexity. Any kind of conspiracy to bomb a building, never mind bring down towers/fly planes, would involve an enormous number of people. They'd all need to do their job perfectly and also keep schtum, permanently. Why would the planners of the attack decide to add further complexity by getting people to run _drills_?? 

Moreover Jazzz, you're list betrays the exact problem with your analysis - 'was it a suicide bomber - no. Was there a claim of reponsibility - no. Were there any terror drills nearby or recently - yes. Must be the bloodlines/government blowing their own buildings up then'. On 2 of those, you are taking the _absence_ of evidence as proof that certain people (NWO) did it and why. In practice, you are saying providing we know virtually nothing about an attack,it's reasonable to believe lizards did it.

Edit: ... and another thing: there's an irony that, in practice you are doing precisely what the Bush/Blair governments did.  I have some problems with the film, but Curtis in the Power of Nightmares says the very lack of evidence was used by governments to build up the image of Bid Laden/Al Quaida as the overarching narrative for terrorism.  Rather than deal with messy international and local grievances that generate terror, they wanted a ridiculously simplified picture of the 'terrorist threat', the international organisation with a bond villain at its heart.  In practice, jazzz you go through the same methodology and end up with equally simplified (and wrong) conclusions.  It ain't bloodlines, it's the usual messy shit of power.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 19, 2013)

Wilf said:


> In practice, you are saying providing we know virtually nothing about an attack,it's reasonable to believe "lizards" did it.


 
it's an assumption that's worked well for the last 2000 years whenever people want to cover shit up so why stop now?


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Apr 19, 2013)

He's bullshitting anyway. Does anyone seriously believe those criteria would hold in the event of another bomb? Obviously they wouldn't, he'd be straight on here giving it some shite about conspiracies while the victims were still being loaded into the ambulances, whatever the particular circumstances. We all know it, so is it really worth engaging with his 'points'?


----------



## Wilf (Apr 19, 2013)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> He's bullshitting anyway. Does anyone seriously believe those criteria would hold in the event of another bomb? Obviously they wouldn't, he'd be straight on here giving it some shite about conspiracies while the victims were still being loaded into the ambulances, whatever the particular circumstances. We all know it, so is it really worth engaging with his 'points'?


 I've no hopes of changing Jazzz's mind, it works for him, he gets something out of it or whatever.  However, rather than just dealing with the 'evidence', I do think it's sometimes worth trying to pin down the assumptions that would have to be true for all of this to be a correct analysis. When you hear it, as in the '3 points', it's easy to get straight to the absurdities. Equally though, you're right, Jazzz won't ever feel bound by this and will move on to the next.  The goalposts are on well oiled castors.


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 19, 2013)

Plus these are public forums. It's good that there is somewhere on the interweb where conspiracy theories are challenged robustly and repeatedly.


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 19, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> They are official criteria.
> 
> <snip>


Where are they from, then?


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Apr 19, 2013)

Yeah that argument makes sense on the whole, and I understand the logic (although I don't have the energy to bother personally). My point wasn't so much 'why engage with jazzz' in general as 'why engage with this specific point' - there's a slight difference here to his usual arguments in that this is an outright lie about his own behaviour. The usual stuff is at least an argument of sorts, even if it's generally a terrible one.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 19, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> Well okay Wilf. Genuine terrorist events (rather than 'false flags') tend to have three things:
> 
> 1) suicides do not take place unless they are necessary to execute the attack. E.g. the Palestinian suicide bombers conceal the bombs on their body because that's the only way they can get the bomb close to their target.


 
No, it's the delivery method of greatest utility, as opposed to the only way. It's more strategically-sound, too.



> 2) They are accompanied by clear claims of responsibility and demands. That is the point of them.


 
Not true. Making no claims of responsibility is itself an old and much-used tactic in asymmetric warfare.



> 3) They don't coincide with a terror drill at the same place or nearby.


 
Except when they do, anyway.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 19, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> Well this one has false flag written all over it.


As you've been good enough to reply to my questions, just one more: do the gun battles and manhunt in Boston for the surviving Tsarnaev brother still suggest 'false flag'?


----------



## Wilf (Apr 19, 2013)

Seems Icke is still running with a 'the 2 lads were framed' line:
http://www.davidicke.com/headlines/82966-fbi-ignores-men-with-backpacks-at-scene-of-boston-bombings
Presumably the MIT cop shot himself as well.

Jazzz?


----------



## goldenecitrone (Apr 19, 2013)

Wilf said:


> As you've been good enough to reply to my questions, just one more: do the gun battles and manhunt in Boston for the surviving Tsarnaev brother still suggest 'false flag'?


 
You've got to hand it to them. It's brilliant acting.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 19, 2013)

goldenecitrone said:


> You've got to hand it to them. It's brilliant acting.


 Of course they did work with Stanislavski.


----------



## sihhi (Apr 20, 2013)

Wilf said:


> Seems Icke is still running with a 'the 2 lads were framed' line:
> http://www.davidicke.com/headlines/82966-fbi-ignores-men-with-backpacks-at-scene-of-boston-bombings
> Presumably the MIT cop shot himself as well.
> 
> Jazzz?


 
This stuff is so dumb it's unreal. They found a uni student so loyal to the lizards he willingly let himself be killed and a police officer happily let himself get shot to stage the incidents - which are concealed from other police officials. This will allow Obama to open FEMA camps to arrest and murder thousands like after Katrina (which happened even though of course it didn't).


----------



## kavenism (Apr 20, 2013)

sihhi said:


> This stuff is so dumb it's unreal. They found a uni student so loyal to the lizards he willingly let himself be killed and a police officer happily let himself get shot to stage the incidents - which are concealed from other police officials. This will allow Obama to open FEMA camps to arrest and murder thousands like after Katrina (which happened even though of course it didn't).


 
It's not only dumb it's sick. I've been looking at the thread for this over at Icke's site and there are people who have literally been trawling through the footage of injured and suffering people, of friends and family of the bereaved, looking for the "actors", the "shills", the "fixers", all while there are people still in hospital possibly losing their limbs. Isn't it about time we stop engaging with these types and start treating them like what they are, perverse sociopathic oxygen thieves?


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 20, 2013)

kavenism said:


> It's not only dumb it's sick. I've been looking at the thread for this over at Icke's site and there are people who have literally been trawling through the footage of injured and suffering people, of friends and family of the bereaved, looking for the "actors", the "shills", the "fixers", all while there are people still in hospital possibly losing their limbs. Isn't it about time we stop engaging with these types and start treating them like what they are, perverse sociopathic oxygen thieves?


 
they did that on 7/7, one bloke driving a van got death threats.


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 20, 2013)

kavenism said:


> It's not only dumb it's sick. I've been looking at the thread for this over at Icke's site and there are people who have literally been trawling through the footage of injured and suffering people, of friends and family of the bereaved, looking for the "actors", the "shills", the "fixers", all while there are people still in hospital possibly losing their limbs. Isn't it about time we stop engaging with these types and start treating them like what they are, perverse sociopathic oxygen thieves?


I think it's worse to let them go unchallenged myself. These types seem to take silence as tacit agreement. 

You are right though, to be gleefully trawling footage whilst people are critically ill is sick and cruel.


----------



## kavenism (Apr 20, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> I think it's worse to let them go unchallenged myself. These types seem to take silence as tacit agreement.
> 
> You are right though, to be gleefully trawling footage whilst people are critically ill is sick and cruel.


 

The trouble is that from their weird perspective being challenged is evidence either of the unthinking mentality of the sheeple which they have risen above, or that their truther activities are so righteous since they evoke the efforts of people to shut them up! You lose whatever you do. I prefer to save time and just not bother. No amount of argumentation is sufficient to change their minds. To even consider that possible is to presume that they're open to rational argumentation and the giving and challenging of reasons, whereas to look at any of their writing is to see that the opposite is the case.  I still think there's a great sitcom to be written about the truther/conspiracy community though. Just looking at Icke’s forum you know the script would write itself.


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 20, 2013)

kavenism said:


> The trouble is that from their weird perspective being challenged is evidence either of the unthinking mentality of the sheeple which they have risen above, or that their truther activities are so righteous since they evoke the efforts of people to shut them up! You lose whatever you do. I prefer to save time and just not bother. No amount of argumentation is sufficient to change their minds. To even consider that possible is to presume that they're open to rational argumentation and the giving and challenging of reasons, whereas to look at any of their writing is to see that the opposite is the case. I still think there's a great sitcom to be written about the truther/conspiracy community though. Just looking at Icke’s forum you know the script would write itself.


When I argue against their theories on the internet, I'm arguing to persuade the people who would be taken in by their crap if it went unchallenged. I think it's pretty evident from my numerous debates (and I use that word loosely) on here that these types don't change their minds.


----------



## goldenecitrone (Apr 20, 2013)

Wilf said:


> Of course they did work with Stanislavski.


 
Stan who? Another Chechen, I'll be bound.


----------



## kavenism (Apr 20, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> When I argue against their theories on the internet, I'm arguing to persuade the people who would be taken in by their crap if it went unchallenged. I think it's pretty evident from my numerous debates (and I use that word loosely) on here that these types don't change their minds.


 
Yeah that is a good point. Trouble is no matter of challenge seems to be preventing these folks from running legion. I know an otherwise perfectly sensible friend of a friend that seriously worries that David Icke could be right about the moon being a hollow satellite! This stuff is becoming more and more prevalent, and the more it does the more it seems to gain some kind of legitimacy. Even if it’s just vague propositions about Bilderberg or some other supposedly controlling cabal, the cumulative effect is to prevent any kind of serious thought on politics or current events, everything gets filtered through the loon mill from the outset.


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 20, 2013)

kavenism said:


> Yeah that is a good point. Trouble is no matter of challenge seems to be preventing these folks from running legion. I know an otherwise perfectly sensible friend of a friend that seriously worries that David Icke could be right about the moon being a hollow satellite! This stuff is becoming more and more prevalent, and the more it does the more it seems to gain some kind of legitimacy. Even if it’s just vague propositions about Bilderberg or some other supposedly controlling cabal, the cumulative effect is to prevent any kind of serious thought on politics or current events, everything gets filtered through the loon mill from the outset.


 
Some years ago I was talking to someone about how mobile phones and laptops containing coltan from the eastern DRC, and how the coltan trade is a major factor in keeping the civil war there going. . . and she said "oh, so you're one of those people who think the moon landing was a hoax, then?"


----------



## existentialist (Apr 20, 2013)

kavenism said:


> Yeah that is a good point. Trouble is no matter of challenge seems to be preventing these folks from running legion. I know an otherwise perfectly sensible friend of a friend that seriously worries that David Icke could be right about the moon being a hollow satellite! This stuff is becoming more and more prevalent, and the more it does the more it seems to gain some kind of legitimacy. Even if it’s just vague propositions about Bilderberg or some other supposedly controlling cabal, the cumulative effect is to prevent any kind of serious thought on politics or current events, everything gets filtered through the loon mill from the outset.


They're not really running legion: it's just that, on the internet, their voices are as loud as everybody else.

Which is a disadvantage in terms of the fact that their opinions can, effectively, carry equal weight, but an advantage from the point of view that it doesn't take long for people to get conspiraloon overload. So long as there are sensible people around who are responding to the loonspuddery (ideally, rationally and calmly), it isn't going to take long for most people who pass a clue shop with any regularity to realise who the stary-eyed nutjobs spraying their monitors with spittle are, and who are the ones who might just still have a toe down on Planet Earth.

Jazzz, I have to say, has been doing an increasingly brilliant job of making himself look like one of the former lately, right down to his blunt refusals to engage in debate - apart from the most transparently one-upmanship kind - with anyone, especially the reasonable ones.


----------



## Jazzz (Apr 20, 2013)

Wilf said:


> This one bemuses me most of all. There's the obvious issue of _why_, why would special ops false flaggers draw attention to terrorism just as they were about to do it? However there's also the issue of complexity. Any kind of conspiracy to bomb a building, never mind bring down towers/fly planes, would involve an enormous number of people. They'd all need to do their job perfectly and also keep schtum, permanently. Why would the planners of the attack decide to add further complexity by getting people to run _drills_??


 
You carry out the attack by carrying out the drill, and just making it live.


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 20, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> You carry out the attack by carrying out the drill, and just making it live.


Then it's not a drill.

And I'd quite like the answer to my question please.


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Apr 20, 2013)

Idris2002 said:


> Some years ago I was talking to someone about how mobile phones and laptops containing coltan from the eastern DRC, and how the coltan trade is a major factor in keeping the civil war there going. . . and she said "oh, so you're one of those people who think the moon landing was a hoax, then?"


 
I had a similar experience when someone mentioned the Bologna station bombing as an example of left-wing terrorism.

See e.g. http://libcom.org/files/Stefano-Delle-Chiaie.pdf

All the lizard fancier stuff sounds superficially similar to some aspects of real-world soundly evidenced conspiracies, so it makes it easier to airbrush them from history.


----------



## existentialist (Apr 20, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> You carry out the attack by carrying out the drill, and just making it live.


Course you do, Jazzz, course you do.

Because that's the only purpose of a drill. 

(ETA: it's OK, I can rolleyes at Jzzz, not to mention inserting facepalms into his username: he's ignoring me, so I get away with it  )


----------



## Jazzz (Apr 20, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> Then it's not a drill.


Indeed, it becomes a crime. But the people involved in assisting it won't know that. Law enforcement that might otherwise intervene won't know that. Indeed, the very people who are carrying out the crime might not know it.



> And I'd quite like the answer to my question please.


The answer to your question is, are you really that stupid?


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 20, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> Indeed, it becomes a crime. But the people involved in assisting it won't know that. Law enforcement that might otherwise intervene won't know that. Indeed, the very people who are carrying out the crime might not know it.
> 
> The answer to your question is, are you really that stupid?


No, the answer to my question would have been where you got those criteria from, not an insult.

Is that because despite you claiming they are 'official criteria' you made them up?


----------



## Jazzz (Apr 20, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> No, the answer to my question would have been where you got those criteria from, not an insult.
> 
> Is that because despite you claiming they are 'official criteria' you made them up?


You are really that stupid.


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 20, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> You are really that stupid.


You made them up.

I'm not the one avoiding questions with playground-quality insults.


----------



## Jazzz (Apr 20, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> You made them up.


Indeed, they were simply my reasoning, which is precisely what Wilf asked for. Your question was utterly ridiculous (as if there is some central database which definitively states which terror attacks were false flags and which weren't!) and my response was blatantly sarcastic. To my amazement you couldn't spot that and continued to press the matter! Seeing as your MO is to appear extremely clever without the substance to back it up and highly aggressive with it you may expect me to take you down.


----------



## Yossarian (Apr 20, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> Well this one has false flag written all over it.


 
Your mum's got false flag written all over her.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 20, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> Indeed, they were simply my reasoning, which is precisely what Wilf asked for. Your question was utterly ridiculous (as if there is some central database which definitively states which terror attacks were false flags and which weren't!) and my response was blatantly sarcastic. To my amazement you couldn't spot that and continued to press the matter! Seeing as your MO is to appear extremely clever without the substance to back it up and highly aggressive with it you may expect me to take you down.


No, you have been caught out. _Again_. You said:




			
				Jazzz said:
			
		

> They are official criteria.


 
Now they are



> simply my reasoning


 
So they are not official criteria. Why did you say that they are?


----------



## brogdale (Apr 20, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> No, you have been caught out. _Again_. You said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 But didn't you see the Joooooos dancing on the roof?


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 20, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> Indeed, they were simply my reasoning, which is precisely what Wilf asked for. Your question was utterly ridiculous (as if there is some central database which definitively states which terror attacks were false flags and which weren't!) and my response was blatantly sarcastic. To my amazement you couldn't spot that and continued to press the matter! Seeing as your MO is to appear extremely clever without the substance to back it up and highly aggressive with it you may expect me to take you down.


Like butchersapron said, YOU said they were official criteria. Not me.

How have any of my posts been 'highly aggressive' ? And 'expect me to take you down'? Really?

It's not me that's without substance or highly aggressive, Jazzz.


----------



## Harry Webb (Apr 20, 2013)

I'd like to know what it takes to _not_ question Building Seven? Blind faith?


----------



## Jazzz (Apr 20, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> So they are not official criteria. Why did you say that they are?


Of course they are not 'official criteria'. How could there be 'official criteria' for determining a false-flag terror event? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 To anyone with half a brain it really was quite apparent that I was taking the piss.


----------



## goldenecitrone (Apr 20, 2013)

Harry Webb said:


> I'd like to know what it takes to _not_ question Building Seven? Blind faith?


 
You'd know all about blind faith Cliff.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 20, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> Of course they are not 'official criteria'. How could there be 'official criteria' for determining a false-flag terror event?  To anyone with half a brain, it should have been really quite apparent that I was taking the piss.


Or, rather more obviously, you blundered and made claims that you couldn't back up and are now gracelessly and transparently attempting to manufacture some post-facto excuse. _Again_.


----------



## Jazzz (Apr 20, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Or, rather more obviously, you blundered and made claims that you couldn't back up and are now gracelessly and transparently attempting to manufacture some post-facto excuse. _Again_.


Or rather, in your desire to pounce on any attack on me going, you've got far too excited and haven't bothered to actually read the thread to see how ridiculous the exchange was.


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 20, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> Or rather, in your desire to pounce on any attack on me going, you've got far too excited and haven't bothered to actually read the thread to see how ridiculous the exchange was.


More likely you were making it all up again.


----------



## Harry Webb (Apr 20, 2013)

goldenecitrone said:


> You'd know all about blind faith Cliff.


Indeed. What I mean is, we all know western governments are completely transparent in every aspect of their administration, right?


----------



## goldenecitrone (Apr 20, 2013)

Harry Webb said:


> Indeed. What I mean is, we all know western governments are completely transparent in every aspect of their administration, right?


 
Yep, with you so far.


----------



## Jazzz (Apr 20, 2013)

This is hilarious


----------



## Harry Webb (Apr 20, 2013)

goldenecitrone said:


> Yep, with you so far.


I can't think of any occasion where a politician has been caught out on a lie or a made a decision that resulted in the deaths of the people they represent.


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 20, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> This is hilarious


Like all the threads you start.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 20, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> Or rather, in your desire to pounce on any attack on me going, you've got far too excited and haven't bothered to actually read the thread to see how ridiculous the exchange was.


Or not. As for not having read the thread, well i have 92 posts out of 1000 in total, nearly 10% of them and have helped expose a number of your idiocies from the very first page onward. You have half that number and have managed to get yourself caught out as a credulous, naive, ill-informed, illogical and evasive buffoon in them. Onto the actual exchange - you were asked to say what terrorist events you would consider as genuine and what grounds you would use to reach that conclusion - you responded by offering a short list of bizarre reasons and failed to respond substantively to either part of the question asked of you. When challenged on your reply you offered a defence of your post that claimed you were offering official criteria - a defence that you have now withdrawn (leaving the original question aimed at you unanswered still) claiming it was _just a joke. _Yeah, i think i've _read the thread_ alright.


----------



## shifting gears (Apr 20, 2013)

Harry Webb said:


> Indeed. What I mean is, we all know western governments are completely transparent in every aspect of their administration, right?



Yep, you won't find many around these boards who'd disagree with that. 

Right, sheeple?


----------



## goldenecitrone (Apr 20, 2013)

Harry Webb said:


> I can't think of any occasion where a politician has been caught out on a lie or a made a decision that resulted in the deaths of the people they represent.


 
If you say so Harry.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 20, 2013)

Harry Webb said:


> I can't think of any occasion where a politician has been caught out on a lie or a made a decision that resulted in the deaths of the people they represent.


Conclusive proof. Ta, saved us all some time.


----------



## existentialist (Apr 20, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> Indeed, it becomes a crime. But the people involved in assisting it won't know that. Law enforcement that might otherwise intervene won't know that. Indeed, the very people who are carrying out the crime might not know it.
> 
> The answer to your question is, are you really that stupid?


And there was I, talking about one-upmanship, then along comes Jazzz and starts to insult the intelligence of his interlocutors, rather than actually answer their point


----------



## existentialist (Apr 20, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> Indeed, they were simply my *reasoning*, which is precisely what Wilf asked for. Your question was utterly ridiculous (as if there is some central database which definitively states which terror attacks were false flags and which weren't!) and my response was blatantly sarcastic. To my amazement you couldn't spot that and continued to press the matter! Seeing as your MO is to appear extremely clever without the substance to back it up and highly aggressive with it you may expect me to take you down.


Jazzz, the day you display anything remotely resembling reasoning is the day I take all of my clothes off, paint my wedding tackle with woad, stand on my head in a bucket of custard, recite Jabberwocky backwards, and film it for the Naked Urbanites thread.

Let's just say I'm not ordering too much custard in...


----------



## Harry Webb (Apr 20, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Conclusive proof. Ta, saved us all some time.


You're welcome. And the Troofers might like to consider how dumb terrorists actually are. There were hundreds of IRA attacks in the UK and the majority of those guilty of these crimes were identified and convicted within weeks. Pretty sloppy bunch I think you'll agree.


----------



## existentialist (Apr 20, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> Of course they are not 'official criteria'. How could there be 'official criteria' for determining a false-flag terror event?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Since you inadvertently take the piss pretty much every time you post, I think people can be forgiven for failing to notice when you do it deliberately...


----------



## Jazzz (Apr 20, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Or not. As for not having read the thread, well i have 92 posts out of 1000 in total, nearly 10% of them and have helped expose a number of your idiocies from the very first page onward. You have half that number and have managed to get yourself caught out as a credulous, naive, ill-informed, illogical and evasive buffoon in them. Onto the actual exchange - you were asked to say what terrorist events you would consider as genuine and what grounds you would use to reach that conclusion - you responded by offering a short list of bizarre reasons and failed to respond substantively to either part of the question asked of you. When challenged on your reply you offered a defence of your post that claimed you were offering official criteria - a defence that you have now withdrawn (leaving the original question aimed at you unanswered still) claiming it was _just a joke. _Yeah, i think i've _read the thread_ alright.






			
				Wilf said:
			
		

> Jazzz, can you envisage a terrorist event that you wouldn't regard as NWO/false flag/bloodlines related? What would it be about that event that would stop you seeing it in those terms? And if you are willing to answer those questions, can you see where I'm going?


 



			
				Jazzz said:
			
		

> Well okay Wilf. Genuine terrorist events (rather than 'false flags') tend to have three things: [lists three things]


Wilf asks for my reasoning and I give it




			
				equationgirl said:
			
		

> Please can you post some substantiation for these claims, for example can you link to any credible sources examining a number of attacks around the world over the past few decades (needed for a reasonable sample size)?
> 
> Thank you.


 
note: utterly ridiculous question. How can there by some official database of false-flag terror when we are dealing with secrecy and deception? I answer:




			
				Jazzz said:
			
		

> No.


 (already bored)

equationgirl follows up:



			
				equationgirl said:
			
		

> So these are your musings then? Your opinions? Or are these generally accepted by the conspiracy theorist ?


 
How tedious!  I responded quite sarcastically




			
				Jazzz said:
			
		

> They are official criteria.


 
Part of me knew that equationgirl would take that response seriously, knowing how her mind works. I'm amazed to find that someone else did.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 20, 2013)

No, not buying it for one second - i've seen far too many (and i'm sure others have too) casually thrown in little tidbits like this ("They are official criteria.") from you when you think that you can get away with it - the Cynthia Mckinney one springs immediately to mind - situations where you adopt a superior tone and attempt to sneak a lie/something you have no idea is true/a laughable misreading/etc through as stone cold fact, and far far too many equally pathetic and wretched attempts to extricate yourself from the shit you've landed yourself in when you are pulled up on these attempts. Like now. In short, i've seen you pull facts from your arse and claim they're somehow official or authorised or some equivalent.

edit: and you've got that _go away little girl_ whiff off you again - go and have a wash.


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 20, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> Wilf asks for my reasoning and I give it
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You know absolutely nothing about how my mind works. You have never met me in real life. Don't presume to know me.

You are extremely bothered by the fact that I challenge your unsubstantiated posts, and every time you descend into insults and personal attacks (I presume we'll see more of those shortly) with some misogyny thrown in for good measure.

And you should know as well as anyone that the written word rarely conveys sarcasm.


----------



## existentialist (Apr 20, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> Wilf asks for my reasoning and I give it
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Cptin Fceplm Rides Again.


----------



## Jazzz (Apr 20, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> No, not buying it for one second - i've seen far too many (and i'm sure others have too) casually thrown in little tidbits like this ("They are official criteria.") from you when you think that you can get away with it


How can you possibly have "official criteria" for determining what is a complete deception of officialdom? 

Congratulations to you, equationgirl, beesonthewhatnow, and existentialist on falling for my little joke.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 20, 2013)

Jazzz said:
			
		

> How can you possibly have "official criteria" for determining what is a complete deception of officialdom?
> 
> Congratulations to you, equationgirl, beesonthewhatnow, and existentialist on falling for my little joke.



No one said that you can or that there is such criteria (though they undoubtedly have criteria for ranking threats and analysing who had carried out attacks) , they have said that this is the sort of idiocy that you believe and have pushed as fact.


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 20, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> How can you possibly have "official criteria" for determining what is a complete deception of officialdom?
> 
> Congratulations to you, equationgirl, beesonthewhatnow, and existentialist on falling for my little joke.


Oh you're such a wag, claiming this was just a huge joke when all the time you're trying to dig yourself out of the hole you've dug for yourself again.

Ha ha ha ha ha.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Apr 20, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> Congratulations to you, equationgirl, beesonthewhatnow, and existentialist on falling for my little joke.


Gosh, aren't you _clever_. Pulling one over us _poor sheeple_. Showing us all the _truth_.

_Helping us_.


----------



## Jazzz (Apr 21, 2013)

_"My sons were set up"_

FBI links already emerging. Audio interview on link.



> The mother of two men suspected of carrying out the Boston Marathon bombings has said she believes her sons are innocent and is "100% sure that this is set up".
> Zubeidat Tsarnaev alleged that her oldest son, Tamerlan, was controlled by the FBI for years.
> Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, 19, is in custody after police cornered him in Watertown, near Boston.
> His 26-year-old brother Tamerlan Tsarnaev, an alleged accomplice, was fatally injured in a shootout with officers earlier on Friday.



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-22229263


----------



## captainmission (Apr 21, 2013)

do you have kids jazz? what would your reaction be if they were accused of a terrible crime?


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 21, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> _"My sons were set up"_
> 
> FBI links already emerging. Audio interview on link.
> 
> ...


I really think you should start a new thread about this in world politics, if you must start this line of thought. You're pretty far off the original topic.

Don't you think it's incredibly inappropriate to start calling this a set-up whilst people are still critically ill in hospital?


----------



## Jazzz (Apr 21, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> I really think you should start a new thread about this in world politics, if you must start this line of thought. You're pretty far off the original topic.
> 
> Don't you think it's incredibly inappropriate to start calling this a set-up whilst people are still critically ill in hospital?


I don't know. Are you going to tell that to the mother and the BBC?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 21, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> _"My sons were set up"_
> 
> FBI links already emerging. Audio interview on link.
> 
> ...


Amazing, two conclusive proofs in one night. First Sir Cliff informs us that:



Harry Webb said:


> I can't think of any occasion where a politician has been caught out on a lie or a made a decision that resulted in the deaths of the people they represent.


 
And now the above piece of in-depth research. How deep does this go i find myself wondering?


----------



## Harry Webb (Apr 21, 2013)

As deep as all reported news, deeeeep yo!
For example, "The millennium bug", "SARRS virus", "Bird Flu", "Swine Flu", "Climate Change", "GM Foods"..............all of these have been reported accurately and unbiasedly without sensationalist headlines, etc.


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 21, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> I don't know. Are you going to tell that to the mother and the BBC?


You don't think it's inappropriate to be gleefully calling this a false flag operation whilst people are being treated for losing limbs and other critical injuries? You don't think that is insensitive and cruel to be making light of their tragedy?

Stooping to new lows Jazzz.

And the BBC isn't reporting this as a false flag operation either. The mother is having a perfectly normal reaction to being told her sons are probably behind a bombing - 'not my boys, it's a set-up,'


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 21, 2013)

kavenism said:


> The trouble is that from their weird perspective being challenged is evidence either of the unthinking mentality of the sheeple which they have risen above, or that their truther activities are so righteous since they evoke the efforts of people to shut them up! You lose whatever you do. I prefer to save time and just not bother. No amount of argumentation is sufficient to change their minds. To even consider that possible is to presume that they're open to rational argumentation and the giving and challenging of reasons, whereas to look at any of their writing is to see that the opposite is the case. I still think there's a great sitcom to be written about the truther/conspiracy community though. Just looking at Icke’s forum you know the script would write itself.


 
Absolutely agreed, which is why Jazzz's conspiraloon shit should be instantly binned, imo.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 21, 2013)

> I can't think of any occasion where a politician has been caught out on a lie


 
Richard Nixon


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Apr 21, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> Richard Nixon


 
Good man, set up by the Illuminati.


----------



## existentialist (Apr 21, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> You don't think it's inappropriate to be gleefully calling this a false flag operation whilst people are being treated for losing limbs and other critical injuries? You don't think that is insensitive and cruel to be making light of their tragedy?
> 
> Stooping to new lows Jazzz.
> 
> And the BBC isn't reporting this as a false flag operation either. The mother is having a perfectly normal reaction to being told her sons are probably behind a bombing - 'not my boys, it's a set-up,'


Not sure he is stooping to NEW lows: just revisiting old ones. This bit of stooping was predictable, but even this jaded old cynic has been brought up short by some of the depths our noble captain of the  has plumbed in the past.


----------



## existentialist (Apr 21, 2013)

Spymaster said:


> Absolutely agreed, which is why Jazzz's conspiraloon shit should be instantly binned, imo.


I think it's quite useful to have it out there where people can see it...so long as its presence isn't helping Google rankings, etc, of conspiraloon sites.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 21, 2013)

It's a fucking load of old bollocks and should be treated as such.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 21, 2013)

We do have a standing rule about conspiracy threads which arguably should be better enforced. It's slipped a bit in the past few years as it's just not been so necessary.


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 21, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> We do have a standing rule about conspiracy threads which arguably should be better enforced. It's slipped a bit in the past few years as it's just not been so necessary.


To be fair, I think in general it isn't so necessary, it's not like urban is a haven for CT fans. But equally Jazzz is posting these threads with more frequency now, and with misleading information to draw people to the thread under false pretences.


----------



## Jazzz (Apr 21, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> You don't think it's inappropriate to be gleefully calling this a false flag operation whilst people are being treated for losing limbs and other critical injuries? You don't think that is insensitive and cruel to be making light of their tragedy?
> 
> Stooping to new lows Jazzz.
> 
> And the BBC isn't reporting this as a false flag operation either. The mother is having a perfectly normal reaction to being told her sons are probably behind a bombing - 'not my boys, it's a set-up,'


The mother is not only saying that her sons were set up, but is clearly alluding to FBI involvement and that is false-flag. The BBC are reporting her assertions. You are feigning righteous indignation at I don't know what. There is no question that there has been a real attack. There is no 'making light of tragedy', quite the reverse, I have no idea where you get that from. Certainly from nothing I've posted.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 21, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> To be fair, I think in general it isn't so necessary, it's not like urban is a haven for CT fans. But equally Jazzz is posting these threads with more frequency now, and with misleading information to draw people to the thread under false pretences.


It hasn't been necessary for a while now as there seems to now be less danger of floods of loons coming over to spam the place on the subject. The general ban was put in place as a response to that happening, and did I think work quite well. This became known as a loon-unfriendly place.

Eternal vigilance is necessary though. I am trying to stay aware.


----------



## Jon-of-arc (Apr 21, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> The mother is not only saying that her sons were set up, but is clearly alluding to FBI involvement and that is false-flag. The BBC are reporting her assertions. You are feigning righteous indignation at I don't know what. There is no question that there has been a real attack. There is no 'making light of tragedy', quite the reverse, I have no idea where you get that from. Certainly from nothing I've posted.



You don't think that she might be in some level of denial about the fact that two people she loved and gave birth to might be capable of committing a horrific crime that indiscriminately killed innocent people? 

So what has convinced you that this is a false flag attack? You'll need to be quite specific if you want to avoid accusations that you are exploiting this tragedy for your own ends, and would have claimed it as an inside job no matter what the circumstances.


----------



## existentialist (Apr 21, 2013)

Jon-of-arc said:


> You don't think that she might be in some level of denial about the fact that two people she loved and gave birth to might be capable of committing a horrific crime that indiscriminately killed innocent people?
> 
> So what has convinced you that this is a false flag attack? You'll need to be quite specific if you want to avoid accusations that you are exploiting this tragedy for your own ends, and would have claimed it as an inside job no matter what the circumstances.


Jazzz is displaying his usual substitute for reasoning here: since someone has claimed something that supports what he believes (viz, her sons are innocent and have been set up by the FBI), it must therefore follow that what he believes (ie, it's a false-flag attack set up by US government agencies) must be true.

It's what happens when you fly in the face of the scientific method and seek out only evidence which supports your hypothesis - you end up invoking the most ludicrous nonsense in support of your belief system, while remaining completely aware of what a plank you are making yourself look like.


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 21, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> The mother is not only saying that her sons were set up, but is clearly alluding to FBI involvement and that is false-flag. The BBC are reporting her assertions. You are feigning righteous indignation at I don't know what. There is no question that there has been a real attack. There is no 'making light of tragedy', quite the reverse, I have no idea where you get that from. Certainly from nothing I've posted.


Oh for heaven's sake, quit with the rolleyes please. It make you seem like a petulant teenager.

Where do I get your gleefulness from? Your past form in these situations. Sandy Hook springs to mind.

Your proof of false-flag operation is for someone to _claim_ it's a false flag operation, and you go 'see, I told you it was'. That's hardly proof, Jazzz.


----------



## existentialist (Apr 21, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> Where do I get your gleefulness from? Your past form in these situations. Sandy Hook springs to mind.


Now _that_ was a good example of Jazzz plumbing the depths...


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 21, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> You are really that stupid.


 
Or, you really are that deluded.
I think I'll go with the woman with the hard-earned doctorate, rather than the loonspud!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 21, 2013)

goldenecitrone said:


> Stan who? Another Chechen, I'll be bound.


 
Worse! With a name like that, obviously an international banker/Rothschild Zionist or crypto-international banker/Rothschild Zionist!!!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 21, 2013)

Yossarian said:


> Your mum's got false flag written all over her.


 
In loads of different handwriting.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 21, 2013)

brogdale said:


> But didn't you see the Joooooos dancing on the roof?


 
I bet, if you strain your ears, you can hear "Hava Nagila" playing!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 21, 2013)

goldenecitrone said:


> You'd know all about blind faith Cliff.


 
I've heard that Cliff particularly liked their album cover.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 21, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> _"My sons were set up"_
> 
> FBI links already emerging. Audio interview on link.
> 
> ...


 
Have you given any thought to the fact that if this was a "false flag" mission by the US government, they might have made it somewhat more forceful, and concealed any Federal involvement from, say the mother? You know, possibly by wasting the mother so *that* could be blamed on the sons too?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 21, 2013)

captainmission said:


> do you have kids jazz? what would your reaction be if they were accused of a terrible crime?


 
Jazzz?
That the Rothschild Zionists did it!


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 21, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Or, you really are that deluded.
> I think I'll go with the woman with the hard-earned doctorate, rather than the loonspud!


Appreciated


----------



## two sheds (Apr 21, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Have you given any thought to the fact that if this was a "false flag" mission by the US government, they might have made it somewhat more forceful, and concealed any Federal involvement from, say the mother? You know, possibly by wasting the mother so *that* could be blamed on the sons too?


 
Double bluff, mate. By involving the FBI it gives credibility to it being false flag because you'd never expect them to admit it. 

Did they actually have any 'discussions' with him? If so and they were anything like the discussions (aka waterboarding etc) they have with other terrorist suspects then I wouldn't be surprised he didn't like the American government.


----------



## Harry Webb (Apr 21, 2013)

Growing up in London during the 80s and early 90s I was aware of IRA bombs constantly. One even exploded very close to me. However, the majority of these incidents never made the national news and very few convictions were seen. Since 2001 terrorist perpetrators can be identified within a matter of hours.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 21, 2013)

Harry Webb said:


> Growing up in London during the 80s and early 90s I was aware of IRA bombs constantly. One even exploded very close to me. However, the majority of these incidents never made the national news and very few convictions were seen. Since 2001 terrorist perpetrators can be identified within a matter of hours.


 
 Gibberish.

Identify one mainland bombing that did not make the news.


----------



## Harry Webb (Apr 21, 2013)

brogdale said:


> Gibberish.
> 
> Identify one mainland bombing that did not make the news.


I said "national news", cretin.


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 21, 2013)

Harry Webb said:


> Growing up in London during the 80s and early 90s I was aware of IRA bombs constantly. One even exploded very close to me. However, the majority of these incidents never made the national news and very few convictions were seen. Since 2001 terrorist perpetrators can be identified within a matter of hours.


To be fair, Harry, anyone growing up in the UK during the 80s was aware of IRA bombs constantly. They might not have been going off around me but I saw what was happening on the news.


----------



## 8den (Apr 21, 2013)

Harry Webb said:


> Growing up in London during the 80s and early 90s I was aware of IRA bombs constantly. One even exploded very close to me. However, the majority of these incidents never made the national news and very few convictions were seen. Since 2001 terrorist perpetrators can be identified within a matter of hours.


 
There were 4 IRA bombs in London in the 1980s, and 15 in the 1980s.

20 bombs in 20 years is not constant.


----------



## 8den (Apr 21, 2013)

Harry Webb said:


> I said "national news", cretin.


 
Fucking hell. If you wanted to see the difference between how the Troubles were reported on "the mainland" compared to Northern Ireland, I guarantee I can find a national news report for every one of those 20 bombs but I suspect much of violence that occured in NI barely registered in the UK national press.


----------



## Harry Webb (Apr 21, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> To be fair, Harry, anyone growing up in the UK during the 80s was aware of IRA bombs constantly. They might not have been going off around me but I saw what was happening on the news.


 
The bomb that went off close to me, I don't remember seeing it on the national TV news. It made a short article in the Independent, is all I remember. About 20 people were hurt.


----------



## laptop (Apr 21, 2013)

Er...




> It is reported that the mother of the Tsarnaev boys vocally complained that 9/11 had been a western or Israeli conspiracy to make the world hate Muslims to at least one visitor to her US home.
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/apr/21/boston-marathon-attacks-clues-patterns


 
From the CNN article linked to:



> Alyssa Lindley Kilzer said she often visited the apartment at 410 Norfolk St. in Cambridge, where the Tsarnaevs lived...
> 
> But she became increasingly uncomfortable going to the apartment because of Zubeidat's growing religious fervor.
> 
> ...


----------



## brogdale (Apr 21, 2013)

Harry Webb said:


> I said "national news", cretin.


 
Identify one mainland bombing that did not make the _*national *_news.


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 21, 2013)

Harry Webb said:


> The bomb that went off close to me, I don't remember seeing it on the national TV news. It made a short article in the Independent, is all I remember. About 20 people were hurt.


When was the date of the bomb?


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 21, 2013)

Harry Webb please be aware that this is not a site friendly towards conspiracy theorists.

Plus we like facts and arguments. We're very good at arguments


----------



## Dan U (Apr 21, 2013)

I hope it's the real cliff


----------



## brogdale (Apr 21, 2013)

Dan U said:


> I hope it's the real cliff


 
He'd not call me a cretin, would he? Being a christain and all that...


----------



## Harry Webb (Apr 21, 2013)

8den said:


> There were 4 IRA bombs in London in the 1980s, and 15 in the 1980s.
> 
> 20 bombs in 20 years is not constant.


More like 150 actually.


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 21, 2013)

Harry Webb said:


> More like 150 actually.


source?

Here's another thing about urban - please substantiate your assertions with a link.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 21, 2013)

Harry Webb said:


> More like 150 actually.


Fact us up Harry.


----------



## Harry Webb (Apr 21, 2013)

brogdale said:


> Identify one mainland bombing that did not make the _*national *_news.


Here's a list for you to go through and check to see if I'm making it all up or actually expressing a valid point.
http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/written_answers/1996/mar/04/terrorist-incidents


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 21, 2013)

Harry Webb said:


> Here's a list for you to go through and check to see if I'm making it all up or actually expressing a valid point.
> http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/written_answers/1996/mar/04/terrorist-incidents


No, wrong way round - _you_ source your claim/fact then present it. Get to it.

And btw: terrorists incidents covers a wider range of things, it doesn't mean exclusively bombings, and your claim was also about bombs that exploded remember.


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Apr 21, 2013)

goldenecitrone said:


> You'd know all about blind faith Cliff.


 
I thought that was Clapton?


----------



## Harry Webb (Apr 21, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> No, wrong way round - _you_ source your claim/fact then present it. Get to it.


Are you human?


----------



## brogdale (Apr 21, 2013)

Harry Webb said:


> Here's a list for you to go through and check to see if I'm making it all up or actually expressing a valid point.
> http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/written_answers/1996/mar/04/terrorist-incidents


 
No, you're making shit up. The PIRA detonated approx. 46 explosive devices on the mainland between August 1973 and April 1996. AFAIR, each and every incident made the 'national' news.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 21, 2013)

Harry Webb said:


> Are you human?


What year was your close escape from a london bombing?


----------



## Harry Webb (Apr 21, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> Harry Webb please be aware that this is not a site friendly towards conspiracy theorists.
> 
> Plus we like facts and arguments. We're very good at arguments


Just conspiracy theorists? I'd say this site is some kind of social policing experiment.


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 21, 2013)

Harry Webb said:


> Here's a list for you to go through and check to see if I'm making it all up or actually expressing a valid point.
> http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/written_answers/1996/mar/04/terrorist-incidents


You see that bit at the top?


> *Mr. Rooney* ​To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department on what dates terrorist incidents ascribed to the IRA have taken place on the British mainland for each year since 1980. [18744]​§​
> *Mr. Howard* ​The information available relates to acts of terrorism connected with the affairs of Northern Ireland as defined in section 14 of the Prevention of Terrorism (Temporary Provisions) Act 1989. *Until 1989 only those incidents which caused death or injury were recorded.*​


If there was a bomb that did not cause death or injury it would not have been recorded as an act of terrorism before 1989. It is highly likely therefore that if it was not officially recorded as such it would not have been reported.

I think there were probably more than 150, due to the way recording the incidence of these acts of terrorism changed. The Hansard report makes it look like the IRA suddenly became very active in the 1990s, when those of us that lived through the 80s and 90s know that not to be true. I would say activity declined compared to the 80s.


----------



## Harry Webb (Apr 21, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> What year was your close escape from a london bombing?


1993


----------



## two sheds (Apr 21, 2013)

That link does also include incidents outside London (and not only bombs as remarked).


----------



## brogdale (Apr 21, 2013)

Harry Webb said:


> 1993


 Bishopsgate?

Yeah, the _national _media black-out on that was impressive.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 21, 2013)

No, fuck off Harry. I am not having the boards with a loonsplaining invasion.


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Apr 21, 2013)

Remind me again, what's the relevance of our new chum's claims about the reporting or otherwise of IRA bombs to the subject of this thread?

The connection seems a bit vague to me ...


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 21, 2013)

Harry Webb said:


> The bomb that went off close to me, I don't remember seeing it on the national TV news. It made a short article in the Independent, is all I remember. About 20 people were hurt.


If it was the bishopsgate bomb 1 person was killed and 44 were injured.


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 21, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> No, fuck off Harry. I am not having the boards with a loonsplaining invasion.


Did you ban him?

ETA. Ah, yes. I see you that you did.


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Apr 21, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> No, fuck off Harry. I am not having the boards with a loonsplaining invasion.


 
Um, Harry, better start with properly referenced facts and logical arguments based on them if you want to stick around ... 

I urge haste to do so.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 21, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> Did you ban him?


Yes. Loonban alert has been raised to "puce".


----------



## brogdale (Apr 21, 2013)

Bernie Gunther said:


> Remind me again, what's the relevance of our new chum's claims about the reporting or otherwise of IRA bombs to the subject of this thread?
> 
> The connection seems a bit vague to me ...


 It's about "social policing"....or summat. Apparently


----------



## love detective (Apr 21, 2013)

Bernie Gunther said:


> Um, Harry, better start with properly referenced facts and logical arguments based on them if you want to stick around ...


 
Like Jazzz does, erm...

Presume he was referring to the Harrods thing


----------



## twentythreedom (Apr 21, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> No, fuck off Harry. I am not having the boards with a loonsplaining invasion.


A bit harsh there fridgey


----------



## brogdale (Apr 21, 2013)

Howsomedever...getting back to looning, I see that C4 are leading with the claim from the Dad that the FBI phoned Tamerlan after the bombing....

http://www.channel4.com/news/boston-bombings-questions-raised-by-telephone-call-claim 

tbf to C4, the first word of the story's headline is "Did....?"



> Sunday 21 April 2013   United States , World
> The father of the Boston bombing suspects claims to Channel 4 News that the FBI telephoned his elder son after the attack, and prior to a fatal shootout that claimed the life of a police officer.
> 
> The father of Tamerlan and Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, Anzor, told *Channel 4 News* that the elder brother had telephoned their mother a few days after the bombings.
> ...


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 21, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Yes. Loonban alert has been raised to "puce".


_Puce? _
I thought it had been raised to heliotrope, myself.


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 21, 2013)

twentythreedom said:


> A bit harsh there fridgey


Why? It was only going to get worse.


----------



## twentythreedom (Apr 21, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> Why? It was only going to get worse.


We'll never know now


----------



## brogdale (Apr 21, 2013)

twentythreedom said:


> We'll never know now


 
The fun could have gone on for a little longer, I suppose.


----------



## laptop (Apr 21, 2013)

brogdale said:


> Howsomedever...getting back to looning, I see that C4 are leading with the claim from the Dad that the FBI phoned Tamerlan after the bombing....
> 
> http://www.channel4.com/news/boston-bombings-questions-raised-by-telephone-call-claim
> 
> tbf to C4, the first word of the story's headline is "Did....?"


 
So the source for that is the mother... who, according to the visitor to her house that CNN reported, is a Grade-A loonspud.


----------



## twentythreedom (Apr 21, 2013)

He was talking CT stuff on a CT thread.

@brog


----------



## kenny g (Apr 21, 2013)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_in_London has a useful list.

I was in Camden when a bomb went off in 93 outside a Mcdonalds on a market day. Looking back at the list the bombings don't seem as regular as they felt at the time. I can remember thinking they were weekly. However, there were quite a lot of failed and intercepted bombings. A dumper truck bomb outside the then MI5 office in Gower street being one memorable interception. Half of UCL would have gone up if that one had gone off. I definitely can remember news reports asking if people knew of people who did not work on Mondays they were suspicious of as many of  the attempted bombings were on Mondays.


----------



## Tim Westwood (Apr 21, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> No, fuck off Harry. I am not having the boards with a loonsplaining invasion.


Real charmer ain't ya? Do you rule over your colleagues with an iron fist, in your supervisory capacity at Hen Cabin or whatever fried poultry outlet you're employed by?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 21, 2013)

Hey cliff!!


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Apr 21, 2013)

Tim Westwood said:


> Real charmer ain't ya? Do you rule over your colleagues with an iron fist, in your supervisory capacity at Hen Cabin or whatever fried poultry outlet you're employed by?


Oh dear.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 21, 2013)

It's The Big Dog!


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 21, 2013)

Tim Westwood said:


> Real charmer ain't ya? Do you rule over your colleagues with an iron fist, in your supervisory capacity at Hen Cabin or whatever fried poultry outlet you're employed by?


 

When editor steps out of line he gets satanic ritually bummed behind the bins of khans curry house while being forced to spit upon a piece of paper bearing the name 'Henry Ford 88'


----------



## brogdale (Apr 21, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> When editor steps out of line he gets satanic ritually bummed behind the bins of khans curry house while being forced to spit upon a piece of paper bearing the name 'Henry Ford 88'


 
Banging In Your Grill!


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 21, 2013)

Tim Westwood said:


> Real charmer ain't ya? Do you rule over your colleagues with an iron fist, in your supervisory capacity at Hen Cabin or whatever fried poultry outlet you're employed by?


Oh dear oh dear oh dear.

I fear you are not long for these forums 'Tim'.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 21, 2013)

lol


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Apr 21, 2013)

Tim Westwood said:


> Real charmer ain't ya? Do you rule over your colleagues with an iron fist, in your supervisory capacity at Hen Cabin or whatever fried poultry outlet you're employed by?


 
If you want to avoid the ban hammer, present your arguments with solidly referenced facts and logic. 

We have a very low tolerance for conspiraloons, but it is at least theoretically possible to remain unbanned if you stay within the bounds of logic and common sense and stick strictly to properly sourced facts.


----------



## love detective (Apr 21, 2013)

Bernie Gunther said:


> If you want to avoid the ban hammer, present your arguments with solidly referenced facts and logic.
> 
> We have a very low tolerance for conspiraloons, but it is at least theoretically possible to remain unbanned if you stay within the bounds of logic and common sense and stick strictly to properly sourced facts.


 
Like Jazzz does, erm....


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Apr 21, 2013)

Although, for obvious reasons, it's tricky to do that while arguing for some sort of lizard scenario ...


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Apr 21, 2013)

love detective said:


> Like Jazzz does, erm....


 
If it was up to me I'd enforce a 'facts and logic' standard strictly with loons, and let people argue whatever crazy shit they liked as long as they sourced it and avoided logical fallacies, but I understand why the mods tend to operate more aggressive policy to prevent being swarmed by loonspuds from Icke or Alex Jones boards.


----------



## two sheds (Apr 21, 2013)

Bernie Gunther said:


> Although, for obvious reasons, it's tricky to do that while arguing for some sort of lizard scenario ...


 
http://library.thinkquest.org/J0113061/lizardfacts.htm


----------



## laptop (Apr 21, 2013)

two sheds said:


> http://library.thinkquest.org/J0113061/lizardfacts.htm


 


> The tail that is left behind wriggles, confusing the other animal.


 
It's like the _I Ching_ for conspiraloon threads


----------



## Roadkill (Apr 21, 2013)

Tim Westwood said:


> Real charmer ain't ya? Do you rule over your colleagues with an iron fist, in your supervisory capacity at Hen Cabin or whatever fried poultry outlet you're employed by?


 
This can only go well...


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 21, 2013)

I banned it  obviously. I will just ban any others, obviously.


----------



## laptop (Apr 21, 2013)

laptop said:


> So the source for that is the mother... who, according to the visitor to her house that CNN reported, is a Grade-A loonspud.


 
Hmmm... the Jason Burke article I linked earlier suggests that the mother's conspiraloonery may be part of the background to the brothers' becoming bombers.

That, and being "first-generation migrants with 'identity issues'."

I predict it'll emerge that they, or at least the elder, were conspiraloons too.


----------



## Jazzz (Apr 22, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Have you given any thought to the fact that if this was a "false flag" mission by the US government, they might have made it somewhat more forceful, and concealed any Federal involvement from, say the mother? You know, possibly by wasting the mother so *that* could be blamed on the sons too?


It was quite forceful enough to introduce martial law to Boston for a few days. Have you considered that it makes little sense as an act of terrorism?


----------



## Jazzz (Apr 22, 2013)

*FBI DHS STAGED BOSTON BOMBS: NEVADA GOVERNOR [candidate] 2014*


----------



## Yossarian (Apr 22, 2013)

A little background on David Lory VanDerBeek, fringe party candidate and frequent YouTuber:

http://wonkette.com/496302/wackaloo...overnor-ready-for-civil-war-obama-to-kill-him

"_You will also be very, very surprised to learn that Mr. VanDerBeek is worried about flouride. And vaccinations. And chemtrails. But he does trust Dr. Jerome Corsi, PhD and Alex Jones.

It’s almost as if a supercomputer took a compilation of the craziest stuff it could find and vomited out a synthetic, computer-generated simulacrum of a gubernatorial candidate, isn’t it? That might explain the hair._"


----------



## classicdish (Apr 22, 2013)

VanderBeek is running for election to the Governor of Nevada. VanderBeek is seeking the Independent American Party nomination in the primary. source: http://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.php/David_Lory_VanderBeek

The Independent American Party is the Nevada affiliate of the national Constitution Party ... a right-wingpolitical party in the United States. source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_Party_(United_States)

Edit: The video isn't really worth watching as he just repeats the "there was a drill therefore the government did it" argument and "the pressure cookers didn't look like they had shrapnel damage".


----------



## Jazzz (Apr 22, 2013)

“I learned about the incident from TV. My opinion is: the special services have framed my children, because they are practicing Muslims. Why did they kill Tamerlan? He was supposed to be caught alive. The younger is on the run now. He was a sophomore at a medical school in the U.S. We expected him to come home for vacation. Now I don’t know what’s going to happen. Tell you once again: I believe special services have framed my children.”

*Father Of Boston Suspects: US Security Services Set Up My Sons*


So now we have supposed culprits who make no demands, claims of responsibility and whose family think they had nothing to do with it. One gets silenced for evermore and the other will surely be tortured to the extent nothing he says may be taken to mean anything. Meanwhile terror drills take place concerning the exact events that transpire which are officially denied. This is state-sponsored terrorism with patsies. Anyone who believes what they are told by the mainstream media here has some serious waking up to do.


----------



## Zapp Brannigan (Apr 22, 2013)

Get help.  Seriously, you need it.


----------



## Jon-of-arc (Apr 22, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> “I learned about the incident from TV. My opinion is: the special services have framed my children, because they are practicing Muslims. Why did they kill Tamerlan? He was supposed to be caught alive. The younger is on the run now. He was a sophomore at a medical school in the U.S. We expected him to come home for vacation. Now I don’t know what’s going to happen. Tell you once again: I believe special services have framed my children.”
> 
> *Father Of Boston Suspects: US Security Services Set Up My Sons*
> 
> ...



If they live, nothing they say can be trusted. If they die they are an essential witness who has been silenced. 

The house always wins, when it comes to ct's.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 22, 2013)

Jazzz said:
			
		

> YouTube Video
> 
> FBI DHS STAGED BOSTON BOMBS: NEVADA GOVERNOR [candidate] 2014



Most pathetic brackets ever, signed butchersapron Bristol Mayor [candidate]


----------



## FabricLiveBaby! (Apr 22, 2013)

And what makes this particular US politician so trustworthy?


----------



## kenny g (Apr 22, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> *FBI DHS STAGED BOSTON BOMBS: NEVADA GOVERNOR [candidate] 2014*




Thank you. That video is completely mad. Watch the man's eyes. He is quite obviously a patsie.


----------



## kenny g (Apr 22, 2013)

> NOW THE MUNDANE TRUTH…
> Personally, I do not believe in UFOs or zombies and neither does anyone in the federal government.* It is quite likely that our government has a created a bio-chemical weapon that can induce zombie-like behaviors in humans* and therefore assist in a mass murder event to promote global depopulation without taking the blame. In fact Dr. Steven Schlozman, Assistant Professor of Psychiatry at Harvard Medical School has made public statements stating how a contagion event could result in a zombie apocalypse. But because of government/elitist propaganda in the media and Hollywood, millions of people will accept it as a zombie event from aliens rather than a chemical weapon attack by other humans. The UFO piece of the propaganda is to induce the public to accept the depopulation event as a “culling” of the human herd by a “higher intelligence” life form that has been watching earth. These alleged UFO aliens will be executing judgment as they see fit because they feel that we are destroying our earth and therefore many of us need to die in order “re-balance” nature. This is the emerging earth-worship religion combined with the new UFO-alien/ufology religion. Both are promoted by the elite who have take over our government and feed this propaganda to us through popular culture movies and video games.  Of course, these are silly stories, but through the use of technology, media, science, and even holograms, it will be possible for world governments to convince large sectors of the general public that these events are real. My position is and always has been that these events are HUMAN CONSPIRACIES. The fact that the federal government is actually noting these events on official websites and generating events for drills in response for these events is an indication that they are ready to move. These events will cause global chaos to which the only solution proposed by the elite will of course be *global government*. In the bigger picture, these events will be used to justify the final surrender of our national sovereignty as the dictators of the earth including Obama claim we must form a global government to combat this alien invasion. Yes, it is insane, but then the elite of this earth are insane people. Surrendering our national sovereignty will conveniently include paying *global taxes* and forming a *global army*. One reason they believe this will work is because  they want to convince religious people that these UFOs are the ‘messiah’ event long awaited. I can agree with the elite on one thing, this FEMA event of their is certainly a sign of the times.


 http://nevadagovernor2014.com/zombi...e-nevada-governor-2014-david-lory-vanderbeek/ 

Damaged man,


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 22, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> *FBI DHS STAGED BOSTON BOMBS: NEVADA GOVERNOR [candidate] 2014*



Why do you think this person and their arguments are especially credible on this jazzz. Explain what parts you find convincing and what evidence he used to reach those conclusions that you both agree with and what method of evaluation you both used on this evidence.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 22, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Why do you think this person and their arguments are especially credible on this jazzz. Explain what parts you find convincing and what evidence he used to reach those conclusions that you both agree with and what method of evaluation you both used on this evidence.


 
Jazzz should not be allowed to post until these points have been answered.

His posts have been a flagrant beach of the FAQs and the policy on conspiracy shit. He's linking-up loonery without comment, which is a no-no, and he's avoiding debate. Why is he allowed to get away with it on EVERY FUCKING THREAD?

Tobyjug got banned for doing what Jazzz does regularly, and Tobes was multiple orders of magnitude more entertaining. Whilst a few Tobyjug threads have become legendary, all Jazzz does is piss people off with his astonishing arrogance.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 22, 2013)

On the jazzz endorsed loon-candidates website he outlines his plan to end all taxation in nevada. In the comments section someone says:



> oh come on
> 
> pretty soon , you will be advocating the end of usury !
> 
> THEN how will the jew bankers continue to rape us ?


 
to which he doesn't reply with 'take your anti-semitism away from here right now', instead he thanks the poster:



> No, interest on investment spurs investment. I’m a true free market capitalist. Thank you, Najhoa! Read the plan. It requires investment interest.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 22, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> On the jazzz endorsed loon-candidates website he outlines his plan to end all taxation in nevada. In the comments section someone says:
> 
> 
> 
> to which he doesn't reply with 'take your anti-semitism away from here right now', instead he thanks the poster:


 
"Read the plan"

see he has a final solution laid out already


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 22, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> It was quite forceful enough to introduce martial law to Boston for a few days. Have you considered that it makes little sense as an act of terrorism?


 
Many acts of terrorism make little sense.
That's because they're not about making sense, they're about making a statement.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 22, 2013)

twentythreedom said:


> A bit harsh there fridgey


 
C'mon, it was Sir Cliff Richard. He's a lizard, for fuck's sake!


----------



## aylee (Apr 22, 2013)

I am fast coming to the conclusion that Jazzz doesn't actually believe in the stuff that he posts, but merely posts it to wind people up.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 22, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> C'mon, it was Sir Cliff Richard. He's a lizard, for fuck's sake!


 
No way! He's actually, like, a lizard? Where's your evidence, huh?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 22, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Most pathetic brackets ever, signed butchersapron Bristol Mayor [candidate]


 
You mean that you've sold out to "The Man"? 

You've changed, maaan!!!!!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 22, 2013)

brogdale said:


> No way! He's actually, like, a lizard? Where's your evidence, huh?


 
His unnaturally unwrinkly skin for a 75+ years-old guy who lives in a sunny climate! It's obvious he has the power to shed his wrinkly old skin for a less wrinkly new one!


----------



## brogdale (Apr 22, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> His unnaturally unwrinkly skin for a 75+ years-old guy who lives in a sunny climate! It's obvious he has the poswer to shed his wrinkly old skin for a less wrinkly new one!


 






You might be onto summat here....


----------



## kenny g (Apr 22, 2013)

brogdale said:


> You might be onto summat here....


 
Has Rolfe been airbrushed out of the above photo?


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 22, 2013)

tom jones seems to be morphing into a colonel sanders statue made of bronze


----------



## William of Walworth (Apr 22, 2013)

aylee said:


> I am fast coming to the conclusion that Jazzz doesn't actually believe in the stuff that he posts, but merely posts it to wind people up.


 
Not necessarily contradictory points, those. I think he DOES believe his stuff or at least most of it -- but I also agree he's on a windup _as well_ -- at least sometimes.


----------



## kenny g (Apr 22, 2013)

During that whole day Paul looked as if his nappies needed changing. I hope her majesties expression is the result of having let off a particularly vicious break of wind. If so, I imagine the partially obscured lady on the far right's expression is due to change shortly!


----------



## 8den (Apr 22, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> *FBI DHS STAGED BOSTON BOMBS: NEVADA GOVERNOR [candidate] 2014*




I love the way the Youtube video makes it seem like he's the gov of Nevada and then down below it mentions' he's only a "candidate".

Remind me to update my CV to include all the jobs I applied for but never got.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 22, 2013)

Jazzz said:


>




Quote from the dick in the video above (@2.00): "Whenever the FBI or the police are holding a drill, run like hell in the opposite direction".

Quote from another dick on this thread:




			
				Jazzz said:
			
		

> If you are anywhere near a terror-related drill, run as fast as you can


 
It's not even your own stuff that you post here. You're just a shill for other morons. You plagiarising twat!


----------



## existentialist (Apr 22, 2013)

William of Walworth said:


> Not necessarily contradictory points, those. I think he DOES believe his stuff or at least most of it -- but I also agree he's on a windup _as well_ -- at least sometimes.


I don't think he's on a windup so much as believes that he really is much, much cleverer than the rest of us. Quantum leap cleverer.


----------



## UhOhSeven (Apr 22, 2013)

> It's not even your own stuff that you post here, you plagiarising twat!


 
Or possibly a case of 'great minds think alike/fools seldom differ' (I know which one I'd bet on).


----------



## existentialist (Apr 22, 2013)

UhOhSeven said:


> Or possibly a case of 'great minds think alike/fools seldom differ' (I know which one I'd bet on).


Given Jazzz 's complete unfamiliarity with anything to do with the scientific method, it's equally likely that he is quoting someone else but just forgot to make that clear...


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Apr 22, 2013)

existentialist said:


> I don't think he's on a windup so much as believes that he really is much, much cleverer than the rest of us. Quantum leap cleverer.


It's his religion. He is trying to save us, lead us into the light.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 22, 2013)

Christ Jazzz, on this one, with gun battles taking place in Boston, one bloke shot and another captured, I thought even you might have had the good grace to pull out of these absurd claims.

Oh and by the way on the 'drills', it's not impossible the FBI _*did*_ hear something about the actual threat (or indeed another threat to the marathon/City of Boston). What they were running as a drill might well have been their attempt *to guard against an attack*, having first done a risk assessment that it should go ahead.  Don't you think that (or indeed that it really was a random drill) is infinitely more likely than the FBI were seeking to muder the people of Boston?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 22, 2013)

Or it might be a drill because a large event was planned. I hear people do that.


----------



## two sheds (Apr 22, 2013)

Another win-win - if they hadn't had sniffer dogs out it would have been 'a major event like that and they weren't even bothered to find out whether there were bombs - shows that they're all in collusion'.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 22, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Or it might be a drill because a large event was planned. I hear people do that.


 Evidence that people are trying to stop terrorists makes me suspicious they are trying to commit terrorism. I also suspect Luis Suarez of trying to keep dentistry out of football.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 22, 2013)

Wilf said:


> Evidence that people are trying to stop terrorists makes me suspicious they are trying to commit terrorism. I also suspect Luis Suarez of trying to keep dentistry out of football.


I saw a plaster cast in the dentists this morning - looked suspiciously Uruguayan.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 22, 2013)

False flag detistry, it's a Rothschild-Colgate thing.


----------



## kenny g (Apr 22, 2013)

http://www.youtube.com/user/davidlory has a fascinating exposition of how a missile was used against the fertiliser plant. It looks like Occupy Freedom are really on the cutting edge of news gathering at the moment. 

How can I trust a man who uses the present tense to express a wish for the future?



> I am the Governor of Nevada in 2014.]


----------



## brogdale (Apr 22, 2013)

Wilf said:


> False flag detistry, it's a Rothschild-Colgate thing.


 
The chews.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 22, 2013)

Wilf said:


> False flag detistry, it's a Rothschild-Colgate thing.


The truth - with teeth.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 22, 2013)

brogdale said:


> The chews.


----------



## goldenecitrone (Apr 22, 2013)

Wilf said:


> False flag detistry, it's a Rothschild-Colgate thing.


 
Well you may jest about evil dentists and their devilish fillings.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 22, 2013)

goldenecitrone said:


> Well you may jest about evil dentists and their devilish fillings.


 Is it _safe_?


----------



## FabricLiveBaby! (Apr 22, 2013)

kenny g said:


> http://www.youtube.com/user/davidlory has a fascinating exposition of how a missile was used against the fertiliser plant. It looks like Occupy Freedom are really on the cutting edge of news gathering at the moment. ?


 

He's so fucking disingenuous.

His first line is "I'm David Lory the next governor of Nevada...."

In the first 3 seconds we've got a massive appeal to authority and a HUGE assumption.

Next governor of Nevada indeed - how the fuck does he know?

Edit... also this is his tag line on Youtube

*I am the Governor of Nevada in 2014*

Does he have a crystal ball?


----------



## Zapp Brannigan (Apr 22, 2013)

So to recap:

Sniffer dogs = knew about the bombs = false flag
No sniffer dogs = didn't want to find the bombs = false flag
Terrorism emergency response drills = cover for covert operation = false flag
No terrorism emergency response drills = no intent of disturbing covert operation = false flag
Mum & dad of suspects refuse to believe that their kids are involved = set up = proof of false flag
Mum & dad of suspects throw their kids to the wolves = set up = proof of false flag


----------



## Wilf (Apr 22, 2013)

Zapp Brannigan said:


> So to recap:
> 
> Sniffer dogs = knew about the bombs = false flag
> No sniffer dogs = didn't want to find the bombs = false flag
> ...


 I have a _suspicion_ Jazzz won't want to get into this.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Apr 22, 2013)

sadly, zapp is correct. I haven't followed this Boston story closely. I thought the coverage, especially in this country, was disproportionate, not least to the amount who will have been killed by drones this week. Oh, sorry, that's brown people wot talk foreign, not proper humans. Silly me.

But as for any conspiracy beyond the official narrative I just don't know. Struck me as silly to bomb a place by hanging around there mind. Couldn't they just use remote devices?

But whenever anything happens there are people predisposed to assume false flag, that is a mistake and it looks stupid. False flags do happen, as do assinations made to look like something else, but why not judge on a balanced case by case basis instead of a pre-supposition. Pre-supposing that authority is telling the truth is just what MSM do, and it is demontrably daft.

there's enough random nutters out there to do this kind of thing from time to time. Recognising that doesn't make one a mainstreamist dupe. Too many people are absolutist in this debate, always have been. 

There's those who can barely open a bag of crisps without thinking it's connected to MK Ultra or Monarch. 

There's those who act like there was a big meeting one day, presumably not as long ago as Iran Contra or Gladio, where the elite decided "This black-op stuff has worked pretty well, so lets not bother with it any more"


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 22, 2013)

In your long experience of bombing, you think remote bombing is best? What gauge are you using? Maybe there were reason other than total deaths involved that drove the coverage - such as potential global implications.

What is wrong with you people?


----------



## FabricLiveBaby! (Apr 22, 2013)

As if anyone could ever find out The Truth™  by looking at a few dodgy photos on the internet anyway.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 22, 2013)

The simple truth is few people have the time or inclination to look deeply into how to kill lots and lots of people. Given half an ounce of thought ten times more people could have died on 7/7: and if it had been a false flag op you can bet there would have been proper mass casualties. There's been at least one academic article about jihadi tradecraft which i've seen: when you're dealing with angry people they can make deadly weapons, they can even use deadly weapons, but they (fortunately) rarely give a great deal of thought to how best to use them, or how to scarper after.


----------



## 8den (Apr 22, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> The simple truth is few people have the time or inclination to look deeply into how to kill lots and lots of people. Given half an ounce of thought ten times more people could have died on 7/7: and if it had been a false flag op you can bet there would have been proper mass casualties. There's been at least one academic article about jihadi tradecraft which i've seen: when you're dealing with angry people they can make deadly weapons, they can even use deadly weapons, but they (fortunately) rarely give a great deal of thought to how best to use them, or how to scarper after.


 
Agreed. Whats really worrying about the 7/7 bombings/Glasgow airport/ is how half arsed they were. Putting some serious thought into it could have left much greater casualties. And not even changing the bombings just changing targets.


----------



## Jon-of-arc (Apr 22, 2013)

Jazzz  I have one other question, which I'd like to ask you; what sort of evidence could convince you that this wasn't a "false flag"? Hypothetically, if you had access to 24 hour video recordings of the two bombers, from the day they were born to the day of their death/capture, and these recordings showed them planning and perpetrating the bombings, without assistance, would this convince you? Or anything less? Do you acknowledge that there's room for error in the conclusions you've reached? Or do you consider your theory to be fact?

Personally, I accept its possible that this bombing was a false flag. Unlikely to the point of absurdity, but just possible. What I do not accept is that there is any evidence that this is the case available right now. There's some pictures which don't show much, there's some circumstances which might possibly be explained by inside job stuff (although I would argue are more easily explained by mundane, innocent explanations) like the "drills", and there is lots of wild speculation. Nothing coming close to concrete proof.  Show me some, and I'd be more than happy to believe you. I'd be shocked, appalled and happy to eat my own words. Can you say you'd ever be prepared to do the same thing?


----------



## Zapp Brannigan (Apr 22, 2013)

Jon-of-arc said:


> Hypothetically, if you had access to 24 hour video recordings of the two bombers, from the day they were born to the day of their death/capture, and these recordings showed them planning and perpetrating the bombings, without assistance, would this convince you?


 
Bred them for it.


----------



## Jazzz (Apr 22, 2013)

Wilf said:


> Christ Jazzz, on this one, with gun battles taking place in Boston, one bloke shot and another captured, I thought even you might have had the good grace to pull out of these absurd claims.
> 
> Oh and by the way on the 'drills', it's not impossible the FBI _*did*_ hear something about the actual threat (or indeed another threat to the marathon/City of Boston). What they were running as a drill might well have been their attempt *to guard against an attack*, having first done a risk assessment that it should go ahead. Don't you think that (or indeed that it really was a random drill) is infinitely more likely than the FBI were seeking to muder the people of Boston?


in which case:

1) They are denying that any such threat or intelligence existed. Why are they doing this, and what was that intelligence/threat?

2) Why couldn't they stop the attack?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 22, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> in which case:
> 
> 1) They are denying that any such threat or intelligence existed. Why are they doing this, and what was that intelligence/threat?
> 
> 2) Why couldn't they stop the attack?


what i want to know, and what i think a lot of other people here want to know, is why can't you stop posting such awful drivel?


----------



## kenny g (Apr 22, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> in which case:
> 
> 1) They are denying that any such threat or intelligence existed. Why are they doing this, and what was that intelligence/threat?
> 
> 2) Why couldn't they stop the attack?


 
You are getting desperate if you need to latch on to a poster's hypothetical potential as evidence of an event happening.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Apr 22, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> In your long experience of bombing, you think remote bombing is best? What gauge are you using? Maybe there were reason other than total deaths involved that drove the coverage - such as potential global implications.
> 
> What is wrong with you people?


 
If I didn't want to get caught I wouldnt be at the scene of the crime when it happened. Maybe they wanted to be caught, but that doesn't explain the reported behaviour on attempts to arrest them, nor does it explain the failure to claim responsibility.

But I accept that weirdness, stupidity and unconventional motives and behaviour are very much in existence. I do not take the above as evidence of false flag. In this case at least I am not really one of "you people". Perhaps you could read the last couple of my sentences in that post again. People who instinctively trust or distrust official accounts on the basis of nothing but instinct are not rational.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 22, 2013)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> If I didn't want to get caught I wouldnt be at the scene of the crime when it happened. Maybe they wanted to be caught, but that doesn't explain the reported behaviour on attempts to arrest them, nor does it explain the failure to take responsibility.
> 
> But I accept that weirdness, stupidity and unconventional motives and behaviour are very much in existence. I do not take the above as evidence of false flag. In this case at least I am not really one of "you people". Perhaps you could read the last couple of my sentences in that post again. People who instinctively trust or distrust official accounts on the basis of nothing but instinct are not rational.


Seriously, we all know that you're trying to establish that people who aren't loons like you are unthinking believers so not living up to what they demand of others. But you're wrong. And a loon. It's even bursting through your first para above no matter how hard you try to suppress it.


----------



## editor (Apr 22, 2013)

If the cops started arresting anyone and everyone they had some sort of vague and hugely inconclusive intelligence about, the loons would really have something to shout about. And for once, they'd be right.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 22, 2013)

editor said:


> If the cops started arresting anyone and everyone they had some sort of vague and hugely inconclusive intelligence about, the loons would really have something to shout about. And for once, they'd be right.


but no one would know because the loons would be the first inside.


----------



## JimW (Apr 22, 2013)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> If I didn't want to get caught I wouldnt be at the scene of the crime when it happened. Maybe they wanted to be caught, but that doesn't explain the reported behaviour on attempts to arrest them, nor does it explain the failure to claim responsibility.
> 
> But I accept that weirdness, stupidity and unconventional motives and behaviour are very much in existence. I do not take the above as evidence of false flag. In this case at least I am not really one of "you people". Perhaps you could read the last couple of my sentences in that post again. People who instinctively trust or distrust official accounts on the basis of nothing but instinct are not rational.


It's not even vaguely unconventional behaviour as far as I recall from other bombings. I can't get my head round the sort of mind that rushes off to false flag but can't imagine a scenario where you do this sort of thing without it being plotted like a film script.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 22, 2013)

there are any number of reasons why a terrorist who didn't want to get caught would be at the scene of the crime. somebody who has taken a bomb to a public place in order to kill innocents is hardly likely to be in the most rational frame of mind. they may have panicked. they may have not have known what to do next. they may have been unsure whether to run or not. they may have actually have been crazy.

we are not likely to do such a thing. you can't say how you would or wouldn't have reacted as a terrorist letting off a bomb in an area full of kids since we would never do that in the first place. maybe he thought the blast would kill him and the fact that it didn't meant that he didn't know what to do. who fucking knows? a person who's just done that is likely to have all sorts of emotions going through their minds, fear, shock, maybe even guilt, it's impossible to say whether it's "rational" (and therefore plausible) for them to stay in the area since what they've done inherently isn't rational. i'd have thought it would be quite plausible that he could hang around in a daze tbh.

and it could be planned but we all know how shit can go wrong on the day even after intensive planning ...


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Apr 22, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Seriously, we all know that you're trying to establish that people who aren't loons like you are unthinking believers so not living up to what they demand of others. But you're wrong. And a loon. It's even bursting through your first para above no matter how hard you try to suppress it.


 
You don't know what I think, or what other people think of what I think. Why are you claiming to know what other people think of what I think? What is it based on? It's weird. I think there are way fewer "unthinking believers" here than in many places, it's why I post and read here.

The first para you refer to are just questions that occurred to me. All such behaviour as the Boston Bombings are weird, so it will have weirdnesses to it. It's no shocker and not much indication of anything.

Now, I am thinking of a single number and a specific colour. I challenge Madame Butchers to tell me what they are and what other people think they are.

Failing that, the full W D L F A Pts of Cardiff City's 1st season in the premiership would be impressive. Give it a whirl and be careful, as usual, as to how you walk with your crystal balls.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 22, 2013)

editor said:


> If the cops started arresting anyone and everyone they had some sort of vague and hugely inconclusive intelligence about, the loons would really have something to shout about. And for once, they'd be right.


 
they wouldn't shout about it, they never shout about anything real.


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## frogwoman (Apr 22, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> but no one would know because the loons supporters would be the ones doing the arresting.


 
corrected for you.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Apr 22, 2013)

So Butchers, in regards to Lanza, Holmes and the Boston bombings I have no big reason to doubt the general official accounts. I am interested in the psychotropic drug use of spree killers, but that's kind of different.

Sorry if that's not loon enough for your Gellar act to really pay off.

On the other hand, I stand by my original post that It is unlikely that the sort of people who pulled off Gladio and Iran / Contra suddenly decided not to bother with that kind of thing any more. Do you think they did decide to discontinue? Is it a guess or can you prove it?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 22, 2013)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> You don't know what I think, or what other people think of what I think. Why are you claiming to know what other people think of what I think? What is it based on? It's weird. I think there are way fewer "unthinking believers" here than in many places, it's why I post and read here.
> 
> The first para you refer to are just questions that occurred to me. All such behaviour as the Boston Bombings are weird, so it will have weirdnesses to it. It's no shocker and not much indication of anything.
> 
> ...


I know what you think by what you say, and what you say that you think. This is really quite easy. And what questions _just occurred _to you? Which didn't? Come on. Let it out.


----------



## sihhi (Apr 22, 2013)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> On the other hand, I stand by my original post that It is unlikely that the sort of people who pulled off Gladio and Iran / Contra suddenly decided not to bother with that kind of thing any more. Do you think they did decide to discontinue? Is it a guess or can you prove it?


 
Do you know what Operation Gladio was? Or what the Iran-Contra affair was? How are they relevant here?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 22, 2013)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> So Butchers, in regards to Lanza, Holmes and the Boston bombings I have no big reason to doubt the general official accounts. I am interested in the psychotropic drug use of spree killers, but that's kind of different.
> 
> Sorry if that's not loon enough for your Gellar act to really pay off.
> 
> On the other hand, I stand by my original post that It is unlikely that the sort of people who pulled off Gladio and Iran / Contra suddenly decided not to bother with that kind of thing any more. Do you think they did decide to discontinue? Is it a guess or can you prove it?


I think you're getting a bit fevered and obsessed, seeing a few things through a rather pathetic narrow prism. And please, ive seen better attempts at loaded and leading questions by my cat.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 22, 2013)

sihhi said:


> Do you know what Operation Gladio was? Or what the Iran-Contra affair was? How are they relevant here?


It looks like he thinks it was some bombing or something. Which says it all - or a lot at least.


----------



## JimW (Apr 22, 2013)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> ...
> 
> On the other hand, I stand by my original post that It is unlikely that the sort of people who pulled off Gladio and Iran / Contra suddenly decided not to bother with that kind of thing any more. Do you think they did decide to discontinue? Is it a guess or can you prove it?


Can't see how their goals would be furthered by any false flag in this instance when they have the "leftest" conceivable US president OKing all the drone strikes they need. Where's the Italian left or the racalcitrant Sandinista regime in this scenario?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 22, 2013)

JimW said:


> Can't see how their goals would be furthered by any false flag in this instance when they have the "leftest" conceivable US president OKing all the drone strikes they need. Where's the Italian left or the racalcitrant Sandinista regime in this scenario?


Molly and the crabapples are coming! No, there's nothing here that stands historical or critical scrutiny. Look how nimbly he leaps though from, _i'm not saying it was a conspiracy_ to saying _it was a conspiracy involving the whole of western europe, NATO, the middle east and the entire post-war years._


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Apr 22, 2013)

JimW said:


> Can't see how their goals would be furthered by any false flag in this instance when they have the "leftest" conceivable US president OKing all the drone strikes they need. Where's the Italian left or the racalcitrant Sandinista regime in this scenario?


 
That's a generally fair point, though POTUS is ever more a puppet of other interests, Obama primarily governs for Wall Street.

The only motive for a Boston conspiracy I have heard relates to general "strategy of tension". As for the spree killings, the gun lobby think it's about gun control. I don't think false flags are necessary for that, these sprees are kind of inevitable, not least because of copy-cat effect. Why just top yourself these days? It's dull. take 20 kids out with you and you will go down in infamy. Likewise with Boston, the media handed terrorists exactly what they wanted. Worldwide frontpage plastering for 3 deaths is grossly disproportionate, no matter how tragic the deaths on an individual level.

As it happens, I think the whole pro/anti gun thing is a distraction on either side. The control would never be enforced and far more people will die from austerity. That's what the US left should be focussing on more IMO.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 22, 2013)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> That's a generally fair point, though POTUS is ever more a puppet of other interests, Obama primarily governs for Wall Street.
> 
> The only motive for a Boston conspiracy I have heard relates to general "strategy of tension". As for the spree killings, the gun lobby think it's about gun control. I don't think false flags are necessary for that, these sprees are kind of inevitable, not least because of copy-cat effect. Why just top yourself these days? It's dull. take 20 kids out with you and you will go down in infamy. Likewise with Boston, the media handed terrorists exactly what they wanted. Worldwide frontpage plastering for 3 deaths is grossly disproportionate, no matter how tragic the deaths on an individual level.
> 
> As it happens, I think the whole pro/anti gun thing is a distraction on either side. The control would never be enforced and far more people will die from austerity. That's what the US left should be focussing on more IMO.


Tell us about a strategy of tension - what sort of scenarios do these things appear under. Are these realistic scenarios for the US right now?

They're not pick and mix you know. Insulting post-modernist loonery.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 22, 2013)

kenny g said:


> You are getting desperate if you need to latch on to a poster's hypothetical potential as evidence of an event happening.


I'm guilty of this - in trying to expose the illogicalities of Jazz's '3 tests' I've pushed the debate back onto that illogical ground. The more difficult task is the one jonofarc tried above - trying to drag jazzz onto the grounds of Occam's razor and a sensible understanding of how geopolitics and power work.


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## butchersapron (Apr 22, 2013)

Wilf said:


> I'm guilty of this - in trying to expose the illogicalities of Jazz's '3 tests' I've pushed the debate back onto that illogical ground. The more difficult task is the one jonofarc tried above - trying to drag jazzz onto the grounds of Occam's razor and a sensible understanding of how geopolitics and power work.


He won't be. It's 10+ years now. He just won't be. And he knows why, once he does it's over - _he_ is over. He's more fragile than he lets on.


----------



## JimW (Apr 22, 2013)

What we have of fairly well documented parapolitical state activity in recent years is all far more "mundane" AFAIK - renditions and black sites. Nothing even approaching your Kitson pseudo-gangs in the Six Counties that I'm aware of. No doubt a few honey pot Islamist groups on the go but can't see why they'd need to let them actually do anything.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 22, 2013)

JimW said:


> What we have of fairly well documented parapolitical state activity in recent years is all far more "mundane" AFAIK - renditions and black sites. Nothing even approaching your Kitson pseudo-gangs in the Six Counties that I'm aware of. No doubt a few honey pot Islamist groups on the go but can't see why they'd need to let them actually do anything.


They even make big hollywood films about them.

This is where having proper functioning collective critical faculties plugged into real life politics and sources counts. Not this this taff-jazzz bollocks (not, not NOT tap jazz)


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## JimW (Apr 22, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> They even make big hollywood films about them.
> 
> ...


Was going to say at least we'll get to know what happened when the next Jason Bourne comes out. About that level.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 22, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> They even make big hollywood films about them.
> 
> This is where having proper functioning collective critical faculties plugged into real life politics and sources counts. Not this this taff-jazzz bollocks (not, not NOT tap jazz)


and definitely not double tap jazzz


----------



## sihhi (Apr 22, 2013)

Gladio was about channeling money to the intelligence community just as NATO itself was about bulking up the money to the military of Western allies/quasi-clients - to persuade/keep the pot boiling by non-bombing means in 99% of instances - elected governments to be pro-nuclear weapons and pro-NATO.




The 'let them go ape' "false" terror approach - in reality give free reign to your nutters was only applied in 2 countries - Italy and Turkey (to some extent the FDR). Gladio proves that in most cases significant arming of rightist extremists can lead to future danger and instability - the Turkish coup of 1980 gave the Soviet Union a shot in the arm when it was on the back foot over Afghanistan. In Italy the revelations in 1990 onwards weakened the political class significantly over that decade.
The problem is, loonery takes any and all acts of political violence in 1969-1984 Italy - the assasination of Moro and the murder of PierFrancesco Laruso alike - as 'Gladio state false flag'.


----------



## JimW (Apr 22, 2013)

sihhi said:


> Gladio was about channeling money to the intelligence community just as NATO itself was about bulking up the money to the military of Western allies/quasi-clients - to persuade/keep the pot boiling by non-bombing means in 99% of instances - elected governments to be pro-nuclear weapons and pro-NATO...


And we're probably in a period where they have less worries in the West about funding approval than at any time since Christ knows when. Recall there was a narrative of UK agencies casting around for an enemy after the cool-down in Ireland but that's long past.
Be more likely to see the conventional forces trying to start an old-fashioned shooting war to get the money for some ships and tanks, I'd have thought.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 22, 2013)

... and then Boston...wtf?


----------



## sihhi (Apr 22, 2013)

JimW said:


> What we have of fairly well documented parapolitical state activity in recent years is all far more "mundane" AFAIK - renditions and black sites. Nothing even approaching your Kitson pseudo-gangs in the Six Counties that I'm aware of. No doubt a few honey pot Islamist groups on the go but can't see why they'd need to let them actually do anything.


 
There has been pro-US parapolitical activity in supporting the Santa Cruz separatist tendencies against Evo Morales, probably stuff has been happening to assist the opposition in Venezuela as well. I would think 99.5% of it has nothing to do with bombs - hence less loon focus.

Let's bear in mind that much of Iran-Contra was an attempt to provoke a military takeover of Iran against the nationalist Islamic regime and it didn't involve bombs. Much of the Contra funding and arming was happening via hollow companies from Florida dealing with central America, and the assistance of the governments in Honduras and Panama.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 22, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> He won't be. It's 10+ years now. He just won't be. And he knows why, once he does it's over - _he_ is over. He's more fragile than he lets on.


Sorry to talk about you jazzz, but I do wonder if you are sometimes troubled by the question 'what if it ain't true'?  And if you are, do you like the answer?


----------



## Wilf (Apr 22, 2013)

An obvious point, but one of the things that really pisses me off about CTs is that they get in the way of a serious discussion of para-state activity (in both its mundane and more dramamtic forms).


----------



## Jazzz (Apr 22, 2013)

The plot thickens


> Tsarnaev Aunt Claims Naked Man In Video Is Tamerlan
> 
> *Infowars.com*
> April 22, 2013
> Dan Dicks of Press for Truth says that when he attempted to conduct an interview with the aunt of Tamerlan Tsarnaev, she told him the man arrested by police in a news video of the shoot-out in Watertown, Massachusetts, last week was her nephew. Maret Tsarnaeva insists her nephew was not killed by police.


http://www.infowars. com/tsarnaev-aunt-claims-naked-man-in-video-is-tamerlan/


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## butchersapron (Apr 22, 2013)

Something thickens each time that you post. That's clear.


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## Zapp Brannigan (Apr 22, 2013)

Jazzz, Do you ever read people's replies to your posts or any other discussion in these threads?  From where i'm sat you just seem to lob Hand Grenades of Truth in then carry on your lunatic way with nary a thought for what anyone else has to say.

Doubt you'll even read this.  Fish umbrella gibbon pants.  Llama crustacean.  Yeah?  Reply with the codeword* if you've got this far.

*ostrich


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 22, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> The plot thickens
> 
> http://www.infowars.com/tsarnaev-aunt-claims-naked-man-in-video-is-tamerlan/


 
Any chance you could answer Butchersapron's post #1125 rather than posting comment free links to conspiracy websites in breach of the FAQ's?


----------



## Jazzz (Apr 22, 2013)

Spymaster said:


> Any chance you could answer Butchersapron's post #1125 rather than posting comment free links to conspiracy websites in breach of the FAQ's?


I have previously announced that I find discussion with butchersapron unproductive and would advise others to do the same.


----------



## binka (Apr 22, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> I have previously announced that I find discussion with butchersapron unproductive and would advise others to do the same.


when are those fema camps going to start filling up Jazzz


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 22, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> I have previously announced that I find discussion with butchersapron unproductive and would advise others to do the same.


_This press conference is now open_


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## butchersapron (Apr 22, 2013)

That's two posters who have now advised people not to talk to me - ayatollah suggested that i (and, for some reason, joe elliot) are touts and jazzz thinks i ask questions he can't answer.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 22, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> I have previously announced that I find discussion with butchersapron unproductive and would advise others to do the same.


 
In that case, why do you think the person (Nevada State governor -candidate-) in the video you posted is advancing a credible argument? What parts do you find convincing and what evidence did he use to reach those conclusions that you both agree with?

What method of evaluation did you both use to gain this evidence?


----------



## cesare (Apr 22, 2013)

Jazzz is well and truly implicated in this, btw. I saw his glove puppet doing rabbit ears behind that second ringed photo of a suspect. G'wan, enlarge it and check. He was there.


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## butchersapron (Apr 22, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> I have previously announced that I find discussion with butchersapron unproductive and would advise others to do the same.


Announce that you find discussion with butchersapron unproductive everyone! Come on!


----------



## Jazzz (Apr 22, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> That's two posters who have now advised people not to talk to me - ayatollah suggested that i (and, for some reason, joe elliot) are touts and jazzz thinks i ask questions he can't answer.


Your MO, as you well know, is to continually (mis)interpret your opponent's position for them, which is precisely what you are doing in this post. It is fantastically tiresome.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 22, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> Your MO, as you well know, is to continually (mis)interpret your opponent's position for them, which is precisely what you are doing in this post. It is fantastically tiresome.


It's entirely accurate. You can't answer the questions. So you have to do this. There is no other option given that you have no answers. All very simple.


----------



## Jazzz (Apr 22, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> It's entirely accurate. You can't answer the questions. So you have to do this. There is no other option given that you have no answers. All very simple.


No, it's that I find you a pain, and don't wish to encourage you.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 22, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> No, it's that I find you a pain.


I might be a pain, but it's because i'm asking these questions that you can't answer, and that you know that you can't answer. Or can you?


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 22, 2013)

Jazzz,  why do you think the person (Nevada State governor -candidate-) in the video you posted is advancing a credible argument? What parts do you find convincing and what evidence did he use to reach those conclusions that you both agree with?

What method of evaluation did you both use to gain this evidence?


----------



## existentialist (Apr 22, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> The plot thickens
> 
> http://www.infowars. com/tsarnaev-aunt-claims-naked-man-in-video-is-tamerlan/


Good old infowars, eh?

How about you tell us *how* the thot plickens, rather than funnelling yet more traffic to one of your pet conspiraloon sites?


----------



## cesare (Apr 22, 2013)

I thought Jazzz had to break links to Infowars now?

Also, alibi?


----------



## existentialist (Apr 22, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> I have previously announced that I find discussion with butchersapron unproductive and would advise others to do the same.


Hmm. Advice from Jazzz...

Nuh.

Anyway, ever wonder what you look like as the list of people you so conspicuously refuse to engage with grows ever-longer? Do please keep it up, because there can be no more obvious example of your deceitfulness and dishonesty...


----------



## existentialist (Apr 22, 2013)

cesare said:


> I thought Jazzz had to break links to Infowars now?
> 
> Also, alibi?


Hmm, good point. I broke the infowars link myself. But not Jazzz'z, obv.


----------



## existentialist (Apr 22, 2013)

I think Jazzz should be forced to break links to his conspiraloon sites. Or, even better, a RoboScript™ should do it for him. Or ban him for 4 hours every time he posts an unbroken link.

And not just because it's the right thing to do, but - and I'm not especially proud of this - because it would reduce him to a frothing conspiranoid rage at the way his right to TruthBomb™ us with his little peccadilloes would be impeded, a clear sign of FBI infiltration of Urban. I would find this amusing.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 22, 2013)

cesare said:


> I thought Jazzz had to break links to Infowars now?


 
He shouldn't be posting them at all according to the FAQs:




			
				FAQ said:
			
		

> Posts containing nothing more than links to websites or video files are not permitted


 
He's done it twice on this thread so far.


----------



## existentialist (Apr 22, 2013)

Spymaster said:


> He shouldn't be posting them at all according to the FAQs:


Just think how pissed off he'd be if a robomoderator just kept deleting posts from him that were merely links, regardless of where they came from?

*chortle*


----------



## cesare (Apr 22, 2013)

Yebbut he had 3 words and a quote in addition to the link


----------



## 8ball (Apr 22, 2013)

existentialist said:


> Just think how pissed off he'd be if a robomoderator just kept deleting posts from him that were merely links, regardless of where they came from?
> 
> *chortle*


 
Paging @llazyllama ...


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 22, 2013)

existentialist said:


> Just think how pissed off he'd be if a robomoderator just kept deleting posts from him that were merely links, regardless of where they came from?
> 
> *chortle*


 
Well I've reported both posts and nothing seems to have happened.

Why is Jazzz able to get away with shit that would see others banned or warned?


----------



## two sheds (Apr 22, 2013)

Spymaster said:


> Why is Jazzz able to get away with shit that would see others banned or warned?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 22, 2013)

Spymaster said:


> Well I've reported both posts and nothing seems to have happened.
> 
> Why is Jazzz able to get away with shit that would see others banned or warned?


He's not, and isn't. It's annoying he posts shit, it's annoying he argues shit, but the stuff he does come under petty by-laws. Gunneradt is still here.


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## existentialist (Apr 22, 2013)

cesare said:


> Yebbut he had 3 words and a quote in addition to the link


Yeah, that's what he'd do - and providing, into the bargain, evidence of bad faith.

But I suspect he'd struggle to find quite such a straightforward way around a ban on posting links to a specific list of sites - it wouldn't seem unreasonable to me that if he started going in for bad-faith ways around that, such as using t.co et al, it might be a banning offence.

It does seem to me that the most elegant solution would be one that required the minimum of moderator input, especially as, with him being quite such a True Believer™, it'd almost certainly develop into a war of self-justified attrition.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 22, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> He's not, and isn't. It's annoying he posts shit, it's annoying he argues shit, but the stuff he does come under petty by-laws.


 
May as well remove that part of the posting rules then. There is no more frequent abuser of the rule than Jazzz.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 22, 2013)

Let him post his drivel, let him get destroyed each time. If he ever openly posts in support of the anti-semitic and racist shit that underpins his beliefs - off him. He's useful as a way to expose the links of the rotten networks he is neck up to in the shit of.


----------



## existentialist (Apr 22, 2013)

Spymaster said:


> Well I've reported both posts and nothing seems to have happened.
> 
> Why is Jazzz able to get away with shit that would see others banned or warned?


TBF, mod response isn't often instant.

I think butchersapron is right, though, in that while Jazzz posts shit and lies, and is potentially quite dangerous - or would be if he wasn't continually being challenged by so many posters - he mostly lacks the downright nastiness of people like gunneradt. And I suppose he's got a long enough track record here that there's a bit of a nostalgia thing going on, too, perhaps 

I'd be reluctant to see him banned - I'd far rather see him forced to post with more integrity, and if he chooses to find that intolerable and bale out voluntarily, that'd be fine by me.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 22, 2013)

Spymaster said:


> May as well remove that part of the posting rules then.


Why not - or why - they are not and never have been things that produce bannings anyway, at best binned threads or changed ops.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 22, 2013)

existentialist said:


> I'd be reluctant to see him banned - I'd far rather see him forced to post with more integrity, and if he chooses to find that intolerable and bale out voluntarily, that'd be fine by me.


 
I couldn't give a toss whether he's banned or not, but his "hit-run-ignore" tactics are expressly forbidden by the board rules and other posters have been banned for less. As I mentioned before, Tobyjug got slammed for similar shit and he at least was amusing.


----------



## 8ball (Apr 22, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Let him post his drivel, let him get destroyed each time.


 
If that is the only reason he's here I'm not sure whether his presence on the boards is just to serve as a hobby for those shooting him down.  If that was the case then maybe it's better he was banned rather than keep being fed some resistance and as a consequence keep getting some kind of validation for his nonsense.  There are plenty other idiots to keep the boards going.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 22, 2013)

Spymaster said:


> I couldn't give a toss whether he's banned or not, but his "hit-run-ignore" tactics are expressly forbidden by the board rules and other posters have been banned for less. As mentioned before, Tobyjug got slammed for similar shit and he at least was amusing.


That is not why he was banned - you must have had this explained to you at least once now?


----------



## existentialist (Apr 22, 2013)

Spymaster said:


> I couldn't give a toss whether he's banned or not, but his "hit-run-ignore" tactics are expressly forbidden by the board rules and other posters have been banned for less. As I mentioned before, Tobyjug got slammed for similar shit and he at least was amusing.


Wasn't Tobyjug banned for making some pretty nasty (if not entirely credible, but feh) threats of violence to one of the mods (editor?).


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 22, 2013)

8ball said:


> If that is the only reason he's here I'm not sure whether his presence on the boards is just to serve as a hobby for those shooting him down. If that was the case then maybe it's better he was banned rather than keep being fed some resistance and as a consequence keep getting some kind of validation for his nonsense. There are plenty other idiots to keep the boards going.


Why? He's getting validation no matter what given that he's only going to meet opposition - what on earth is wrong with shooting him down as a hobby? Did i miss the meeting where our #1concern is if jazzz receives validation or not?


----------



## 8ball (Apr 22, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Why? He's getting validation no matter what given that he's only going to meet opposition - what on earth is wrong with shooting him down as a hobby? Did i miss the meeting where our #1concern is if jazzz receives validation or not?


 
If getting resistance means he's right then we're just keeping him where he is.  That feels kind of wrong.  He is, or a least was, an intelligent and creative person.


----------



## existentialist (Apr 22, 2013)

I think it's natural to want to start banning someone as destructive and disruptive as Jazzz, but I do wonder where that gets us to. I can see the validity of the arguments of both Spymaster and 8ball, but one of the good things about Urban is that what people say is actually extremely lightly policed, and it is on the whole pretty bloody difficult to get a ban - something that I think makes the place what it is.

I'm all for having the rules more rigorously enforced, so that Jazzz has it made clear to him that posting endless links to a specific range of sites is not on, and that offending posts would be edited or deleted, and he can then decide if those are rules he wants to continue posting under. I'd far rather see his activities curtailed, and then him leave of his own accord, than feel that he had somehow succeeded in making Urban into a more banhappy place.

All of which is, I fully admit, high-flown and utterly impracticable idealism. So sue me


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 22, 2013)

8ball said:


> If getting resistance means he's right then we're just keeping him where he is. That feels kind of wrong. He is, or a least was, an intelligent and creative person.


Fuck him - i couldn't care less about the anti-semitic prick.


----------



## 8ball (Apr 22, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Fuck him - i couldn't care less about the anti-semitic prick.


 
...is a fair counter-argument.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 22, 2013)

existentialist said:


> Wasn't Tobyjug banned for making some pretty nasty (if not entirely credible, but feh) threats of violence to one of the mods (editor?).


 
That was why he was perma-banned, but iirc he was warned (and temp banned?) loads of times for being a cunt.

Jazzz makes Tobyjug seem positively reasonable.


----------



## 8ball (Apr 22, 2013)

Spymaster said:


> Jazzz makes Tobyjug seem positively reasonable.


 
But Jazzz never gave us 'boat happy'.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 22, 2013)

8ball said:


> But Jazzz never gave us 'boat happy'.


 
Quite. Instead he gives us streams of constant bullshit that is in no way amusing.


----------



## existentialist (Apr 23, 2013)

Spymaster said:


> That was why he was perma-banned, but iirc he was warned (and temp banned?) loads of times for being a cunt.
> 
> Jazzz makes Tobyjug seem positively reasonable.


Tobyjug was overtly cuntlike - Jazzz at least tends to cover it in a veneer of something approximating to politeness (or did).


----------



## Wilf (Apr 23, 2013)

I'd struggle to keep posting on a site where there was an ongoing debate about the architecture of my delusions, my level of anti-semitism and the like. That jazzz carries on posting is, to be honest, a bit worrying. With his refusal to acknowledge the antisemitism of his 'movement' a big part of me thinks fuck him.  Same time, we obviously get something out of him, he gets something out of us.  Whether _that's_ a good thing, I'm less sure.


----------



## 8ball (Apr 23, 2013)

existentialist said:


> Tobyjug was overtly cuntlike...


 
You can't go banning people for that sort of thing - Pickman's positively trades on it.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 23, 2013)

at least he's not over on the boston proper thread, fucking that one up.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 23, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> at least he's not over on the boston proper thread, fucking that one up.


Can fate be tempted - an empirical test.


----------



## existentialist (Apr 23, 2013)

8ball said:


> You can't go banning people for that sort of thing - Pickman's positively trades on it.


No, I agree. Hence all that stuff I wrote earlier. But Tobyjug didn't get banned for being cuntlike, and I don't think there's any danger of Jazzz being banned for being a patronising, truth-dodging prick with a facepalm problem, either


----------



## free spirit (Apr 23, 2013)

Spymaster said:


> Quite. Instead he gives us streams of constant bullshit that is in no way amusing.


let's give him his due, I doubt there's many posters on urban who've come out with anything quite as amusing as the whole holographic planes thing.

That still has me in stiches even 10 years later.


----------



## 8ball (Apr 23, 2013)

existentialist said:


> ... I don't think there's any danger of Jazzz being banned for being a patronising, truth-dodging prick with a facepalm problem, either


 
Its progressed beyond a problem in Jazzz's case, it's an addiction.


----------



## 8ball (Apr 23, 2013)

free spirit said:


> oh come on, be fair, I doubt there's many posters on urban who've come out with anything quite as amusing as the whole holographic planes thing.
> 
> That still has me in stiches even 10 years later.


 
He didn't invent that, he just repeated it.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 23, 2013)

The huntley one wasn't quite so funny.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 23, 2013)

8ball said:


> He didn't invent that, he just repeated it.


 
_Everything he posts_ is shit from other sites.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 23, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> The huntley one wasn't quite so funny.


Oh, Christ, dare I ask...


----------



## free spirit (Apr 23, 2013)

8ball said:


> He didn't invent that, he just repeated it.


yeah, but I'd never have heard it if he'd not repeated it.

It takes a special kind of poster to have such a low threshold of crudulity that they'd actually repeat something like that on here.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 23, 2013)

Wilf said:


> Oh, Christ, dare I ask...


its like a vileness/hilarity lucky dip. Sometimes you get the talking dog stuff, other times Kollerstrom and his jew hating cronies


----------



## 8ball (Apr 23, 2013)

Spymaster said:


> _Everything he posts_ is shit from other sites.


 
I know.

Compare and contrast with 'boat happy'.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 23, 2013)

Wilf said:


> Oh, Christ, dare I ask...


It was US airmen and they threw the bodies over fence by their base. This was what he argued whilst 'the hunt'' went on.


----------



## Jazzz (Apr 23, 2013)

8ball said:


> He didn't invent that, he just repeated it.


I certainly didn't endorse it. This is the kind of clarification that gets tiresome.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 23, 2013)

The graceless retreat they call this one, fully booked for next few days


----------



## 8ball (Apr 23, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> I certainly didn't endorse it. This is the kind of clarification that gets tiresome.


 
There's so much loonery it's easy to get lost.

Probably the fluoride swiss-cheesing our little grey cells...


----------



## Wilf (Apr 23, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> It was US airmen and they threw the bodies over fence by their base. This was what he argued whilst 'the hunt'' went on.


Thanks (well, y'know.. ).


----------



## Wilf (Apr 23, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> I certainly didn't endorse it. This is the kind of clarification that gets tiresome.


There's no evidence you endorsed it, so you clearlyy _did_ endorse it.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Apr 23, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Tell us about a strategy of tension - what sort of scenarios do these things appear under. Are these realistic scenarios for the US right now?
> 
> They're not pick and mix you know. Insulting post-modernist loonery.


 
A prime wibbler on SoT is Peter Dale Scott. I'd point you in his direction without commenting on how seriously I take what he says.

Would I have to comment? Don't you know what I think, and what everyone else thinks about what I think don't you Madame Butch? Your mind is like the Akash. What number was I thinking of? What colour? What are CCFCs stats for next season?

Or is that you only ask the questions and never bother answering? 

It's fine for you to challenge what you think is absurd in other posters stuff. But when you dodge your own larger absurdities you look even more daft in the context of your know-all arrogance.

Happy Tuesday.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Apr 23, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Molly and the crabapples are coming! No, there's nothing here that stands historical or critical scrutiny. Look how nimbly he leaps though from, _i'm not saying it was a conspiracy_ to saying _it was a conspiracy involving the whole of western europe, NATO, the middle east and the entire post-war years._


 
Look how nimbly you concocted such drivel from : "It doesn't look enough like to conspiracy to me" followed by "but conspiracies do happen".

That doesn't mean allying the first to the second. Since being on this thread I've been clear that conspiracies happen, but to assume incident X is a conspiracy in the first instance is daft.

You are either remarkably stupid or wantonly twisting words in a way that ought to be beneath you, and is certainly not worthy of engagement.

I don't think you are stupid. Yet I often wonder if I had too high an opinion of you. Yours is a good brain wasted mostly on posturing high-minded tripe in a rather naff bullying style. It's utterly needless. Why are you so bitter and sarcastic? Is it you who is truly the misanthrope?

Please stop putting words in my mouth. Thank you.


----------



## fogbat (Apr 23, 2013)

You have so much potential, but you squander it. I'm not angry, just disappointed


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Apr 23, 2013)

Jazzz said:


> I certainly didn't endorse it. This is the kind of clarification that gets tiresome.


No, because unlike switching planes, killing the passengers, making phone calls to relatives with a crack team of impersonators, attaching missiles to the new planes and rigging the towers with an explosive that's never used for controlled demolition, holographic planes are a bit far fetched.


----------



## Dan U (Apr 23, 2013)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> No, because unlike switching planes, killing the passengers, making phone calls to relatives with a crack team of impersonators, attaching missiles to the new planes and rigging the towers with an explosive that's never used for controlled demolition, holographic planes are a bit far fetched.



Kapow. 

Turn it in jazzz


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Apr 23, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> He won't be. It's 10+ years now. He just won't be. And he knows why, once he does it's over - _he_ is over. He's more fragile than he lets on.


This. Jazzz's entire world outlook is built on an interconnected web of conspiracy bullshit. To admit he might be wrong on this is to admit he's wrong about everything, from how he thinks all the way to the shit he's put (or _not_ put in the case of vaccinations) into his body.


----------



## belboid (Apr 23, 2013)

free spirit said:


> let's give him his due, I doubt there's many posters on urban who've come out with anything quite as amusing as the whole holographic planes thing.
> 
> That still has me in stiches even 10 years later.


I prefer 'there is no evidence of Barack Obama existing before 2001' - pure genius


----------



## Santino (Apr 23, 2013)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> A prime wibbler on SoT is Peter Dale Scott. I'd point you in his direction without commenting on how seriously I take what he says.
> 
> Would I have to comment? Don't you know what I think, and what everyone else thinks about what I think don't you Madame Butch? Your mind is like the Akash. What number was I thinking of? What colour? What are CCFCs stats for next season?
> 
> ...


Why are you calling him Madame Butch?

Are you trying to undermine him by implying he is a woman? What's wrong with being a woman? Or are you questioning his sexuality?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 23, 2013)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Look how nimbly you concocted such drivel from : "It doesn't look enough like to conspiracy to me" followed by "but conspiracies do happen".
> 
> That doesn't mean allying the first to the second. Since being on this thread I've been clear that conspiracies happen, but to assume incident X is a conspiracy in the first instance is daft.
> 
> ...


I like the way that you've substituted yourself for humanity here. _If he's having a pop at me he must hate all humanity given my Christlike standing _

Seriously, saying that you are yet to openly say that something is a conspiracy is not a defence from a long career/record of saying that things are conspiracies and being held firmly in the grip of the conspiracy mindset. See for example your immediate pulling in of  vast historical conspiracy theories to relate to the boston bombs and fall out. Classic example of those ideas having you rather than you having those ideas. 


(Few bits of free advice, lay off the skunk, go to bed nice and early, stop whining).


----------



## brogdale (Apr 23, 2013)

Santino said:


> Why are you calling him Madame Butch?
> 
> Are you trying to undermine him by implying he is a woman? What's wrong with being a woman? Or are you questioning his sexuality?


 

Have you never been on Brighton pier?


----------



## brogdale (Apr 23, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> (Few bits of free advice, lay off the skunk, go to bed nice and early, stop whining).


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 23, 2013)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> A prime wibbler on SoT is Peter Dale Scott. I'd point you in his direction without commenting on how seriously I take what he says.
> 
> Would I have to comment? Don't you know what I think, and what everyone else thinks about what I think don't you Madame Butch? Your mind is like the Akash. What number was I thinking of? What colour? What are CCFCs stats for next season?
> 
> ...


I know the strategy of tension inside out thanks, i was trying to see if you did given how quickly you attempted to use it in relation to boston. Sihhi has pointed out a few large gaps in your understanding and posed a few pertinent questions in the meantime. This person who you've directed me to appears to say nothing whatsoever about italy in the 60s and 70s. Why have i been offered  him?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 23, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> I like the way that you've substituted yourself for humanity here. _If he's having a pop at me he must hate all humanity given my Christlike standing _
> 
> Seriously, saying that you are yet to openly say that something is a conspiracy is not a defence from a long career/record of saying that things are conspiracies and being held firmly in the grip of the conspiracy mindset. See for example your immediate pulling in of vast historical conspiracy theories to relate to the boston bombs and fall out. Classic example of those ideas having you rather than you having those ideas.
> 
> ...


 
The only "Christlike standing" most CTers should have is the "standing on a nail that's been driven through their feet as they're crucified.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 23, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> The only "Christlike standing" most CTers should have is the "standing on a nail that's been driven through their feet as they're crucified.


 
no they shouldn't. could you imagine how they'd get? "see how they're persecuting me - just like they did to jesus!"


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 23, 2013)

Santino said:


> Why are you calling him Madame Butch?
> 
> Are you trying to undermine him by implying he is a woman? What's wrong with being a woman? Or are you questioning his sexuality?


 
I think he's confusing Butch for Dr. Frank-N-Furter.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 23, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> no they shouldn't. could you imagine how they'd get? "see how they're persecuting me - just like they did to jesus!"


 
Quite. Crucifixion would be fulfilling their deep desire for martyrdom.

C'mon, we'd be doing them a favour!!!


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 23, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Quite. Crucifixion would be fulfilling their deep desire for martyrdom.
> 
> C'mon, we'd be doing them a favour!!!


 
But I don't want to do them any favours.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 23, 2013)

Have we had, _christ - the false flag messiah_ yet?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 23, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> But I don't want to do them any favours.


 
Okay, how about we think of it as doing our duty to our fellow Jews, nailing these often Judaeophobic nutbars up onto crosses?

Works for me, I've got to say!!!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 23, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Have we had, _christ - the false flag messiah_ yet?


 
Now, you're getting it!!!


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 23, 2013)

it's not a false flag, he's just a very naughty boy


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 23, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Have we had, _christ - the false flag messiah_ yet?


there was an interesting article in, i think, _international journal of intelligence and counterintelligence_ some years ago about whether st paul was a roman intelligence agent and the foundation  of the xian church was some sort of roman intelligence operation.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 23, 2013)

Loaves and fishes - mass vaccine delivery system.  Enslaved by cod and a granary cob.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 23, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> there was an interesting article in, i think, _international journal of intelligence and counterintelligence_ some years ago about whether st paul was a roman intelligence agent and the foundation of the xian church was some sort of roman intelligence operation.


 Damascene conversion by waterboarding.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 23, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> there was an interesting article in, i think, _international journal of intelligence and counterintelligence_ some years ago about whether st paul was a roman intelligence agent and the foundation of the xian church was some sort of roman intelligence operation.


Thijs Voskuilen, 'Operation Messiah: Did Christianity start as a Roman counterinsurgency operation?', in _Small Wars and Insurgencies_ 16:2 (2005), pp. 192-215

Abstract:
Through examining the life and work of the man who is generally known as the Apostle Paul, I hope to challenge the idea that the founder of Christianity was a saint and replace it with the possibility that he really was an agent-provocateur working for the Roman administration in Palestine and various other parts of the Empire. Paul's biography and his own letters, both of which were taken up in the New Testament, hold numerous clues to the effect that this former persecutor, originally named Saul of Tarsus, never left the ranks of the government, but instead went undercover after his famous ‘conversion’ en route to Damascus. The self-proclaimed successor-to-Jesus was not only treated dramatically differently from Jesus by the Romans, but they were his friends and allowed him to live and work for 20 years instead of crucifying him. Jesus' original followers distrusted Paul, and made various attempts to kill him throughout his life. I will conclude by arguing that Paul's claim that Jesus, this candidate-king of the Jews, was the Messiah and had been crucified as the will of God (the prime assumption upon which Christianity is based) should be read as a sadistic mockery of Jewish faith, meant to divide a Jewish resistance organisation and pacify it.

butchersapron frogwoman


----------



## laptop (Apr 23, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> Thijs VoskuilenI said:
> 
> 
> 
> > will conclude by arguing that Paul's claim that Jesus, this candidate-king of the Jews, was the Messiah and had been crucified as the will of God (the prime assumption upon which Christianity is based) should be read as a sadistic mockery of Jewish faith, meant to divide a Jewish resistance organisation and *pacify it*.


 
That went well


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 23, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> I will conclude by arguing that Paul's claim that Jesus, this candidate-king of the Jews, was the Messiah and had been crucified as the will of God (the prime assumption upon which Christianity is based) should be read as a sadistic mockery of


 
Excellent - Jesus Christ, Messiah [candidate]


----------



## belboid (Apr 23, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> Thijs Voskuilen, 'Operation Messiah: Did Christianity start as a Roman counterinsurgency operation?', in _Small Wars and Insurgencies_ 16:2 (2005), pp. 192-215


Almost tempted to buy the article. Tho at £23.50, perhaps not.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 23, 2013)

belboid said:


> Almost tempted to buy the article. Tho at £23.50, perhaps not.


pm me email address and will send it you.


----------



## belboid (Apr 23, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> pm me email address and will send it you.


ooh, that'd be spiffing.  cheers


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 23, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> pm me email address and will send it you.


 
send it to me too


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 23, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> send it to me too


Manners!


----------



## el-ahrairah (Apr 23, 2013)

Jazzz
 as long as i have been here you have postulated some sort of conspiracy on every single western terror attack, and many major news events.  can you tell me if there have been any "terrorist" attacks in recent years that have not been organised by the state?


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 23, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> Thijs Voskuilen, 'Operation Messiah: Did Christianity start as a Roman counterinsurgency operation?', in _Small Wars and Insurgencies_ 16:2 (2005), pp. 192-215
> 
> Abstract:
> 
> SNIP


 
I bet this is the one conspiracy that Jazzz will dismiss as just a little bit too far-fetched.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 23, 2013)

However, there is a _the jews were behind it_ angle, so he may buy it...


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 23, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> However, there is a _the jews were behind it_ angle, so he may buy it...


 
I'm not a Jew, I'm a Roman.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 23, 2013)

Idris2002 said:


> I'm not a Jew, I'm a Roman.


Yes, you did famously invoke your right to roman trial or whatever it was, i forgot that.


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 23, 2013)

Welease Wodewick.


----------



## belboid (Apr 23, 2013)

Idris2002 said:


> I bet this is the one conspiracy that Jazzz will dismiss as just a little bit too far-fetched.


There is a book available from a very small publisher at an expensive price, so that can only add to its veracity.


----------



## laptop (Apr 23, 2013)

belboid said:


> There is a book available from a very small publisher at an expensive price, so that can only add to its veracity.


 
Where's the 12-hour DVD?


----------



## belboid (Apr 23, 2013)

laptop said:


> That went well


He turned a revolutionary political movement into one that accepted roman rule, caused the ultimate schism with the jewsh people (with whom they could ally to end roman opression) and began to build a highly hierarchical church with its HQ in, where is it again?


It's got more going for it than colloidal silver

(cheers picky!)


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 23, 2013)

What did the Romans ever do for us?

Didn't that A.N. Wilson write an attack on St. Paul years ago? I remember a Jesuit I knew complaining about it.


----------



## belboid (Apr 23, 2013)

Idris2002 said:


> What did the Romans ever do for us?
> 
> Didn't that A.N. Wilson write an attack on St. Paul years ago? I remember a Jesuit I knew complaining about it.


there are many, many, attacks on St Paul. That he utterly changed the nature of the church (or movement) is hard to deny. Many people have argued that the modern church is built on Pauline principles, rather than Christian ones.

I have this horrid feeling the new Julian Cope book will quote Voskuilen and his like often


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Apr 23, 2013)

Santino said:


> Why are you calling him Madame Butch?
> 
> Are you trying to undermine him by implying he is a woman? What's wrong with being a woman? Or are you questioning his sexuality?


 
It has nothing to do with a positive or negative view of females. It has to do with the fact that females have tended to figure most in the profession of circus psychics.

Sometimes I have just called it his "psychic act". 

Butch has posted here and previously as if he knows what lots of other people think about me, even though his own estimation of what I think is often a miscalculation.

Not that he has answered on this, demonstrated it further or explained where his deep seated arrogance comes from or what qualifies it. I don't know if you have challenged him on that, but I
I hope this post answers your original question.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 23, 2013)

belboid said:


> there are many, many, attacks on St Paul. That he utterly changed the nature of the church (olr movement) is hard to deny. Many people have argued that the modern church is built on Paulian principles, rather than Christian ones.n


Pauline, please.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Apr 23, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> I like the way that you've substituted yourself for humanity here. _If he's having a pop at me he must hate all humanity given my Christlike standing _
> 
> Seriously, saying that you are yet to openly say that something is a conspiracy is not a defence from a long career/record of saying that things are conspiracies and being held firmly in the grip of the conspiracy mindset. See for example your immediate pulling in of vast historical conspiracy theories to relate to the boston bombs and fall out. Classic example of those ideas having you rather than you having those ideas.
> 
> ...


 
Butchers attack was personal against me. Thus the defence was personal from me. It has nothing to do with Christ, blasphemy isn't a thing of mine. You are exaggerating to an absurd degree. He twists and twisted words to have a personal go at someone, it's one of his standard MOs. I don't know if you ever bother to have a go at him about it or not, and I don't generally know why this forum becomes so over personalised.

I do not have an analysis of the Boston events which fits in with a conspiracy narrative, so I'm not going to bother trying. I know this may jar with what some people would rather think of me. So be it. I probably know less about the Boston details than most people posting here.

I am not one of those people who, following a terror attack, killing spree etc. rushes straight to YT and various conspiracy sites to find out what the many suppositions are. But neither do I over digest the mainstream stuff. It's a time thing as much as anything else and I don't like the style in either case - the lurid fascination of 24/7 MSM or the rather exploitative and desperate nature of the conspiracists.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 23, 2013)

Just wait, you'll get there a bit later. The thinking mans loon.


----------



## existentialist (Apr 23, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Pauline, please.


Do you really think you should be using Belboid's RL name on here?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 23, 2013)

I had to bring her tea to her in  the pub last week, this has to stop.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Apr 23, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> The thinking mans loon.



Is this the nicest thing you ever said about me, or just more sarcasm?


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 23, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> I had to bring her tea to her in the pub last week, this has to stop.


 
Perilous.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 23, 2013)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Butchers attack was personal against me. Thus the defence was personal from me. It has nothing to do with Christ, blasphemy isn't a thing of mine. You are exaggerating to an absurd degree. He twists and twisted words to have a personal go at someone, it's one of his standard MOs. I don't know if you ever bother to have a go at him about it or not, and I don't generally know why this forum becomes so over personalised.
> 
> I do not have an analysis of the Boston events which fits in with a conspiracy narrative, so I'm not going to bother trying. I know this may jar with what some people would rather think of me. So be it. I probably know less about the Boston details than most people posting here.
> 
> I am not one of those people who, following a terror attack, killing spree etc. rushes straight to YT and various conspiracy sites to find out what the many suppositions are. But neither do I over digest the mainstream stuff. It's a time thing as much as anything else and I don't like the style in either case - the lurid fascination of 24/7 MSM or the rather exploitative and desperate nature of the conspiracists.


fucking give it up you dull fucktard


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Apr 23, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> fucking give it up you dull fucktard



Blimey, an overtly offensive personal attack with no attempt to discuss what was said. On Urban of all places. Would you rather I said that I thought the Boston events were false flag even though I don't? Then you could have called me a fucktard too.


----------



## William of Walworth (Apr 23, 2013)

Idris2002 said:


> I bet this is the one conspiracy that Jazzz *will dismiss as just a little bit too far-fetched*.


 
There's no such conspiracy!


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 23, 2013)

He's right though. And you didn't say much.





taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Blimey, an overtly offensive personal attack with no attempt to discuss what was said. On Urban of all places. Would you rather I said that I thought the Boston events were false flag even though I don't? Then you could have called me a fucktard too.


 
Why not?


----------



## twentythreedom (Apr 23, 2013)

Pickman's model can you pm that thing to me too please 

(It confirms exactly what I thought all along )


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 23, 2013)

twentythreedom said:


> Pickman's model can you pm that thing to me too please
> 
> (It confirms exactly what I thought all along )


Pm me an email & will send it you


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 23, 2013)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Blimey, an overtly offensive personal attack with no attempt to discuss what was said. On Urban of all places. Would you rather I said that I thought the Boston events were false flag even though I don't? Then you could have called me a fucktard too.


Not denying being dull and ennui-inducing almost to the point of tears I note


----------



## Buckaroo (Apr 23, 2013)

Did he say 'Psychic act'?


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 23, 2013)

I believe he did.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 23, 2013)




----------



## butchersapron (Apr 23, 2013)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> It has nothing to do with a positive or negative view of females. It has to do with the fact that females have tended to figure most in the profession of circus psychics.
> 
> Sometimes I have just called it his "psychic act".
> 
> ...


I _do_ know what lots of other people think about you - they've told me, and they've told you.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Apr 24, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> Not denying being dull and ennui-inducing almost to the point of tears I note


 
Not denying everything you put to me doesn't equate with agreeing with it, as any fool would know. Inform us why anyone should engage with unsubstantiated abuse. This place is riddled with it. Ironically it is deeply dull.


----------



## UhOhSeven (Apr 24, 2013)

Pickman's Model, I am a poor pathetic newbie who can't figure out how to PM you.

Is it the same thing as 'start a conversation'? Only I'm scared of clicking on that, in case you think I really do want a conversation.

So, please could you send that interesting-looking Jesus stuff to: gethsemenedump@hotmail.co.uk

(Pretty please with a cherry on top).

People having a row: As you were.


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## editor (Apr 24, 2013)

UhOhSeven said:


> Pickman's Model, I am a poor pathetic newbie who can't figure out how to PM you.
> 
> Is it the same thing as 'start a conversation'? Only I'm scared of clicking on that, in case you think I really do want a conversation.
> 
> ...


Conversations are the same as PMs, and only the people you invite into the conversation can access them. And the CIA lizards, of course.


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## UhOhSeven (Apr 24, 2013)

Oh, thanks for the tip -- I shall do my best to remember.


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## belboid (Apr 24, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> Thijs Voskuilen, 'Operation Messiah: Did Christianity start as a Roman counterinsurgency operation?', in _Small Wars and Insurgencies_ 16:2 (2005), pp. 192-215
> 
> Abstract:
> Through examining the life and work of the man who is generally known as the Apostle Paul, I hope to challenge the idea that the founder of Christianity was a saint and replace it with the possibility that he really was an agent-provocateur working for the Roman administration in Palestine and various other parts of the Empire. Paul's biography and his own letters, both of which were taken up in the New Testament, hold numerous clues to the effect that this former persecutor, originally named Saul of Tarsus, never left the ranks of the government, but instead went undercover after his famous ‘conversion’ en route to Damascus. The self-proclaimed successor-to-Jesus was not only treated dramatically differently from Jesus by the Romans, but they were his friends and allowed him to live and work for 20 years instead of crucifying him. Jesus' original followers distrusted Paul, and made various attempts to kill him throughout his life. I will conclude by arguing that Paul's claim that Jesus, this candidate-king of the Jews, was the Messiah and had been crucified as the will of God (the prime assumption upon which Christianity is based) should be read as a sadistic mockery of Jewish faith, meant to divide a Jewish resistance organisation and pacify it.
> ...


well, the article lived up to my hopes, it is a fine example of academic use of conspiracy theory practise.

It has one central argument that is hard to deny - that it was odd for the Romans to let Paul live and preach pretty much freely, despite being supposedly a prisoner. For seventeen years. That is, indeed, a bit odd. But from there...

Probably the most frequent phrase that crops up is 'it must be assumed' - and assume he sure does on a whole host of facts, mainly around the way the Romans did use spies and infiltrators. Many of these strike me as quite reasonable assumptions - there must have been _some_ Roman espionage - but Voskuilen offers no actual facts or evidence to show that they definitely did so, and specifically finds none to show they planted supposed 'converts' into the flock.

There are a good range of references provided at the end of the article, it all looks very scholarly. Until ones looks a little closer. When one does that, one sees that there are only two authors referred to frequently, one being someone with whom he later co-authored his full book on _Paul the Spy_, and the other being an academic - a real academic, writing within in his area of specialisation - whose views on Christian origins wiki describes as being "highly controversial, with critics accusing Eisenman of backing up his allegations with "dubious circumstantial evidence and insinuations"." Sounds familiar. Both the co-author and the highly controversial chap are thanked by Voskuilen for helping with the editing and sourcing of sources for the article.*

in one part V.lists some of Paul's character traits:



> Who, then, was the real Saul of Tarsus? Scholars have labelled him, among other things, a ‘genius’,a ‘chameleon’, ‘creative’,‘multilingual’,‘sarcastic’,‘a closet homosexual’, ‘a man of two cultures’,and ‘Liar’... Even though the above character traits can be considered remarkable for a saint, they are typical, indeed ideal, for a agent provocateur.'


 
Now quite how he reconciles that list with the second sentence is bizarre enough, but if you look at the list and its references, he quotes six sources for them. Groovy. But all of the clearly negative traits (I have no idea if being 'a man of two cultures' is good or bad. Possibly a hint at bi-sexuality??!!), come from just one book! No bias there then.

Two other bits are worthy of note. Early on he writes that it is doubtful whether the journey to Damascus on which Paul converted even took place. It is unlikely because Damascus was ceded to King Aretas IV in 37CE. Which looks a bit embarrassing for bible scholars. Until you read, right at the end of the article, that he says the journey took place in 3_6_CE, when Damascus _was_ under Roman control. Most scholars put the initial trip anywhere between 33 and 36CE, so there was not only time for that one, but for the return trips referred to elsewhere as well.

Right at the end of the article V makes the perfect CT challenge, setting up a framework for exploration of the question that means his theory will never be disproved:



> The ultimate question is, then, who needs to prove what exactly? Does it have to be proven that persecutor Saul faked his conversion? Or does it rather have to be proven that an agent was sincere when he joined the movement he had recently been fighting in the name of the government? In the author’s opinion, it has to be proven that a persecutor is sincere about his joining a persecuted organisation. Saul had the means, motive and opportunity to lie about a change of mind. In addition, his actions validate the possibility of treachery both in biographical detail and literary content. Therefore, until it can be proven that Saul of Tarsus was sincere about his shift in loyalties, the possibility that he acted as an agent-provocateur under the name of ‘Paul’ must prevail, until contradicted by credible evidence.


 
So, Paul must prove he was genuine, 2000 years ago. Quite how he could do that is left strangely unclear. He can hardly go back and martyr himself.

So, in conclusion, we have: use of dodgy, circular, sources - check. Assertion used as fact - check. Misuse of known facts - check. Internally contradictory - check. Central involvement of 'the jews' - check. It does lose marks for quoting academics _actually_ working within their field of expertise, so I give it a 9/10.



* The use of circularity of sources in academic journals - especially smaller, more specialist ones - is almost fascinating as a way of implying wide support for a theory which actually has no such support (or indeed, is completely fictitious). See, for example, this fascinating article on how a small group of people (possibly just one) carried out a convincing fraud that Dickens had met Dostoevsky - http://www.the-tls.co.uk/tls/public/article1243205.ece


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## sihhi (Apr 24, 2013)

Should Glenn Beck be considered an ally of the truth movement taffboy gwyrdd

He has thrown down the gauntlet: 

"Bring it on. Would you like some more, 'cause if you want another helping, we'll give it to you."

"We have a media that is so out of control they will destroy anyone who says Americans are in danger by both parties by all people involved"


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## laptop (Apr 24, 2013)

belboid said:


> well, the article lived up to my hopes, it is a fine example of academic use of conspiracy theory practise.


 
Thank you for reading it for us 



belboid said:


> * The use of circularity of sources in academic journals - especially smaller, more specialist ones - is almost fascinating as a way of implying wide support for a theory which actually has no such support. See, for example, this fascinating article on how a small group (possibly just one) of people carried out a convincing fraud that Dickens had met Dostoevsky - http://www.the-tls.co.uk/tls/public/article1243205.ece


 
Wonderful. That's my productivity for the day fucked


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## belboid (Apr 24, 2013)

laptop said:


> Wonderful. That's my productivity for the day fucked


That article is great.  You have to almost admire the fraudsters.  It is a very, very, long piece tho.


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## William of Walworth (Apr 24, 2013)

Kinnell Belboid! 

Can you do that to all conspiracy theories, ever, on all parts of the evil lizard controlled web?


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## belboid (Apr 25, 2013)

William of Walworth said:


> Kinnell Belboid!
> 
> Can you do that to all conspiracy theories, ever, on all parts of the evil lizard controlled web?


that would require part two of the analysis - on the overall structure of such pieces (this one goes for option two, the specifically dubious/generic to the theoretically compulsive, rather than version one, the specifically, surprisingly, unarguable, generalising to a vaguer, but almost plausible theory), as well as the refutation of the CTers counter-thesis (ie, since I dont believe Saul/Paul was a Roman agent provacteur, I must believe that he really had a vision, and that the New Testament is wholly right.)

Fuck that. Much easier just to refer the reader to Umberto Eco's _Foucaults Pendulum_, the perfect deconstruction of all CTs. Especially the bit about cretins, fools, morons and lunatics.


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## brogdale (Apr 28, 2013)

So...that bit of landing gear stuck between the blocks was from a (real, not holographic) Boeing...or so they say!

I mean, did you see the rope around the thing? No marks on either of the building sides?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/apr/28/september-11-airplane-part-found-new-york

Anyone care to suggest who put it there?


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## frogwoman (Apr 28, 2013)

brogdale said:


> So...that bit of landing gear stuck between the blocks was from a (real, not holographic) Boeing...or so they say!
> 
> I mean, did you see the rope around the thing? No marks on either of the building sides?
> 
> ...


 
you would know who put it there if you opened your eyes to the truth


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## existentialist (Apr 28, 2013)

brogdale said:


> So...that bit of landing gear stuck between the blocks was from a (real, not holographic) Boeing...or so they say!
> 
> I mean, did you see the rope around the thing? No marks on either of the building sides?
> 
> ...


I think it is extremely unfair of them to discover this just as Jazzz finds himself unable to explain it all to we credulous fools.

There will, I am sure, be a perfectly logical explanation, probably involving the use of mass hypnosis, matter transference beams, moving of buildings by several inches to allow exactly the right space for this gear to be inserted, etc., etc.

Anyone who believes otherwise is being manipulated by TPTB, and should be ashamed of themselves.


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## two sheds (Apr 28, 2013)

Where else are the governmnet going to plant a bit of the plane but "wedged between a mosque and an apartment building" though?   That's a but sus isn't it?


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## frogwoman (Apr 28, 2013)

we need to open our eyes to the truth so we can do _what we all know needs to be done_


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## free spirit (Apr 28, 2013)

> The twisted metal part – jammed in an 18-inch-wide, trash-laden passageway between the buildings – has cables and levers on it and is about five feet high, 17 inches wide and four feet long,


 
that must class as being an incredible shot, managing to shoot a 17 inch wide, 5 foot high, 4 foot long bit of metalwork into an 18 inch wide gap without causing enough damage to the walls for anyone to notice it for a decade.

I guess that with debris flying around all over the place that sort of thing will happen purely by chance, but it must be something like a 1:1000 shot, and seriously lucky it hit there and not the presumably occupied office block, as that size chunk of metalwork would caused some serious damage to anyone it hit.


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## existentialist (Apr 28, 2013)

Also, I see one of the buildings was called "park51"

PARK51????? Oh yes, a likely story.


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## two sheds (Apr 28, 2013)

free spirit said:


> that must class as being an incredible shot, managing to shoot a 17 inch wide, 5 foot high, 4 foot long bit of metalwork into an 18 inch wide gap without causing enough damage to the walls for anyone to notice it for a decade.


 
You've hit on it - it was P L A C E D. Not just a 1000:1 shot. Getting that exact part into that exact place is vanishingly small, just unbelievable really.

So W H Y would the government place it there? That's the next question we have to ask.


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## laptop (Apr 28, 2013)

two sheds said:


> So W H Y would the government place it there? That's the next question we have to ask.


 
To distract us from the *Real Conspiracy*, of course.

Which is... err...

/revises hastily


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## free spirit (Apr 28, 2013)

nah, more likely it was them muslims building the mosque stuck it there to make sure AQ could continue to take the credit for it rather than those pesky holographic CIA plane missile things.


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## brogdale (Apr 28, 2013)

two sheds said:


> You've hit on it - it was P L A C E D. Not just a 1000:1 shot, though. Getting that exact part into that exact place is vanishingly small, just unbelievable really.
> 
> So W H Y would the government place it there? That's the next question we have to ask.


 
...or lowered into place...using the rope.

Worth looking at that rope, eh?

What does Israeli rope look like?


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## two sheds (Apr 28, 2013)

The reflections on that photograph were all wrong. That's all I'm saying  [taps nose].


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## William of Walworth (Apr 29, 2013)

belboid said:


> Fuck that. Much easier just to refer the reader to Umberto Eco's _Foucaults Pendulum_, the perfect deconstruction of all CTs. Especially the bit about cretins, fools, morons and lunatics.


 
I've got that upstairs ... one of those books I never got round to reading .... <ponders ...   >>


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## butchersapron (Aug 9, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> sihhi has picked up on a really key point in his last few posts in highlighting the _movement _(as in changing opinions and base-ground beliefs) that these people and their beliefs and form of (non)activism produce, the contexts they demand that politics starts from the sort of warped perspective he outlines, and it demands everyone else also starts from it too.
> 
> Now, if you are naive _OMG mine eyes have been opened! _type like CM (and the hero worship just intensifies this) then it appears to be very easy to lose your bearings - and the same thing will be played out for many many other angry people just coming to political conclusions in a society where alternative (say left-wing for ease for now) viewpoints and organisations don't have much rootedness or even visibility in w/c communities, but where this sort of thing does offer a set of psuedo-answers and a pseudo-community for them to be involved in. That really is a poisonous situation.
> 
> (Someone linked a few months back to a doco about the growth of conspiracy theories in inner city black communities in the US recently, can't seem to find it now)


 
To follow this up here's an excellent challenge to deepening interest in Illuminati nonsense in (US) in some black communities and politics:

How to Overthrow the Illuminati



> Everyone talks about the Illuminati. You may have heard Jay Z and Beyonce are members of the Illuminati, and channel demons when they perform. You may have heard Obama is a member of the Illuminati, and plans to implant microchips in all U.S. citizens, to prepare for martial law. You may have heard the dollar bill contains secret symbols, which reveal the U.S. has been controlled by the Illuminati for hundreds of years.
> 
> Illuminati theory helps oppressed people to explain our experiences in the hood. Society throws horrible stuff in our faces: our family members get locked up for bullshit. Our friends kill each other over beefs, money or turf. Our future is full of dead-end jobs that don’t pay shit. We struggle to pay bills while others live in luxury. On TV, we see people all over the world dying in poverty, even though we live in the most materially abundant society in history. Most people act like none of these terrible things are happening. Why does this occur? We start looking for answers, and Illuminati theory provides one.
> 
> ...


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## editor (Aug 9, 2013)

Here's the real damage that 9/11 loons are doing. 


> Boston bombing suspect Tamerlan Tsarnaev possessed right wing extremist reading material which was seemingly supportive of white supremacist beliefs, owning further literature on conspiracy theories, BBC's Panorama program claimed.
> 
> The program alleged that one right-wing article belonging to the suspect advocated some beliefs characteristic of white supremacists and argued that “Hitler had a point.”
> 
> ...


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## elbows (Aug 9, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> To follow this up here's an excellent challenge to deepening interest in Illuminati nonsense in (US) in some black communities and politics:
> 
> How to Overthrow the Illuminati


 
Not had time to read the full article yet but it sounds right up my street. I've long stated that I only continue to bother looking at conspiracy theories and those trapped by that sense of reality because it's such a waste of momentum, anger etc. And I've tried unsuccessfully in the past to get a discussion going about how some of these theories have long been popular with sections of black american communities. Truth be told I didn't know all that much about that particular angle, other than getting a strong sense that it was not a new phenomenon simply of the last decade, and that there are understandable reasons why such communities may have had even more reason to buy into such narratives. So I shall read the full article ASAP.

This stuff is certainly a symptom of failure of more productive movements, and I fear the road back will be hard.


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## elbows (Aug 9, 2013)

editor said:


> Here's the real damage that 9/11 loons are doing.


 

The layers of real damage that set the scene for more people to buy into the theories in the first place is where the action is I reckon.


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## barney_pig (Aug 9, 2013)

Only read the first page of the illuminati thing, heart appears in the right place, but it mentions the Rosicrucians as being a real group but afaiwa these were a pure fabrication too. *pedant*


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## laptop (Aug 9, 2013)

elbows said:


> The layers of real damage that set the scene for more people to buy into the theories in the first place is where the action is I reckon.


 
Or rather, as you suggested above, the real damage is from the massive distraction from thought and action that could, if developed as mass movements,  save hundreds of thousands or millions of lives. Beside which nutty bombers pale into insignficance.


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## kavenism (Aug 9, 2013)

barney_pig said:


> Only read the first page of the illuminati thing, heart appears in the right place, but it mentions the Rosicrucians as being a real group but afaiwa these were a pure fabrication too. *pedant*


 
But you can joinz them. http://www.amorc.org.uk/


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## laptop (Aug 9, 2013)

kavenism said:


> But you can joinz them. http://www.amorc.org.uk/


 
That's because they're an acutally existing fabrication. Like homeopathy and the Harry Potter fan-club


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## kavenism (Aug 9, 2013)

laptop said:


> That's because they're an acutally existing fabrication. Like homeopathy and the Harry Potter fan-club


 
The Harry Potter fan club doesn't offer a step by step guide to enlightenment (including levitation) for a flat monthy fee though.


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## laptop (Aug 9, 2013)

kavenism said:


> The Harry Potter fan club doesn't offer a step by step guide to enlightenment (including levitation) for a flat monthy fee though.


 
I resign


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## 8ball (Aug 9, 2013)

kavenism said:


> The Harry Potter fan club doesn't offer a step by step guide to enlightenment (including levitation) for a flat monthy fee though.


 
Rosicrucians can levitate?  They're really underselling themselves with that website!


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## belboid (Aug 9, 2013)

barney_pig said:


> Only read the first page of the illuminati thing, heart appears in the right place, but it mentions the Rosicrucians as being a real group but afaiwa these were a pure fabrication too. *pedant*


No, they were real.  It's just that the texts they based themselves upon (written by the 'original' Rosicrucians) were completely made up. By writing the story down, they made it into a real thing.


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## 8ball (Aug 9, 2013)

belboid said:


> No, they were real. It's just that the texts they based themselves upon (written by the 'original' Rosicrucians) were completely made up. By writing the story down, they made it into a real thing.


 
Isn't that more or less the same as with the Jews or the Harry Potter fan club, then?


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## belboid (Aug 9, 2013)

8ball said:


> Isn't that more or less the same as with the Jews or the Harry Potter fan club, then?


essentially, yeah.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 9, 2013)

barney_pig said:


> Only read the first page of the illuminati thing, heart appears in the right place, but it mentions the Rosicrucians as being a real group but afaiwa these were a pure fabrication too. *pedant*


 
Nah, the original  early 17th century Rosicrucians did exist, they just weren't a "society" in the way that the Ancient Illuminated Seers of Bavaria (the Illuminati) or the Masons were, so the actual "secret society" was more of a loose philosophical brotherhood of people/school of thought using allegory to probe the meaning of life than anything more conspira-tastic.
The SRIA (Societas Rosicruciana in Anglia) which *is* a society, has existed for about 150 years, and works along the same philosophical lines as the original Rosicrucians, but is about as secret as Simon Cowell's bastard.


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## Bernie Gunther (Aug 10, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> To follow this up here's an excellent challenge to deepening interest in Illuminati nonsense in (US) in some black communities and politics:
> 
> How to Overthrow the Illuminati


 

That's pretty good stuff.

Seems like it'd be a constructive thing to be sharing with well-meaning people who have got tangled up in all that shite while looking for an understanding of politics.

Unlike almost everything else I've seen in this area, they actually take the fact that this gibberish is now a very common interpretation among potentially radicalised young people _seriously_ and try to address it in a non-patronising way.


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## sihhi (Jul 23, 2015)

Don't know where to put this but a good analysis of hard right (incl some anti-semitic and conspiracism here) trends promoted on Counterpunch chief editors veteran leftists Alexander Cockburn and Jeffrey St Clair.

http://meldungen-aus-dem-exil.noblogs.org/post/2015/07/19/counterpunch-or-suckerpunch

*RIGHT/WHITE SUPREMACISTS* *NO. OF PUBLICATIONS ON COUNTERPUNCH*
_Paul Craig Roberts 264 
Franklin Lamb 170 
Bill & Kathleen Christison (includes individually and jointly written articles) 78 
Gilad Atzmon 46 
Israel Shamir 45 
Alison Weir 42 
Ron Paul 19 _

_As can be seen above, articles supporting Ron Paul on CP outnumber those opposing him by a ratio of more than 2:1._

..

_Of seventeen articles published by CP about Atzmon (not counting those actually written by him), exactly one is critical of Atzmon’s racism. The rest are explicit apologias for Atzmon that regularly misrepresent criticisms or defame his critics. It is this latter category that includesGilad Atzmon’s [sic] A Guide for the Perplexed, by CP editor Jeffrey St. Clair._

...

_Of the individual issues examined for this piece, explanations for US support for Zionism afforded one of the richest collections of material for analysis, with 108 articles found on the subject. To recall the onus of proof, if the Querfront hypothesis is valid, at least a substantial percentage of CP’s output should be supportive of the notion that the US backs Zionist crimes because of the nefarious activities of a ‘foreign lobby’.

In the event, of 108 articles found, fully 87 promote the Lobby version of history. Articles that take no clear position are in second place (16 of 108), whilst only five approach the question from a perspective that acknowledges the strategic value of Is to US imperialism. In other words, well over 95% of relevant articles on CP advance the notion that the implicitly just foreign policy of the United States is being subverted by foreign (Jewish) influence, or at least do not dismiss the idea._


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## butchersapron (Jun 27, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> The claim:
> 
> "Cynthia McKinney being antisemitic!"
> 
> _is entirely yours. _


Nonetheless, here is the proof:


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## butchersapron (Jul 1, 2017)

With ref to above: Reading through Blood and Politics: The History of the White Nationalist Movement From the Margins to The Mainstream. Author reports on a Christian Identity/Patriots/Aryan Nation meeting in 1983 to celebrate the actions of Gordon Kahl -  a murderer from Posse Comitatus. Quotes the content of a flyer handed out:


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