# Just found out a guy who works for me is being a git



## Pingu (Jan 29, 2013)

just had one of the people who works for me ask for a call this evening.

long and short of it is one of the other guys lets call him "stupid", who is new to the company has some "attitude issues" wrt women. Apparently he seems to think they (women that is) are subservient to him (as a male) and this has caused all sorts of jolly goings on today...

so 20:00 hours this evening should make my life more interesting for a bit...


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## geminisnake (Jan 29, 2013)

Sounds like a dick. Sort him out Pingu!!


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## Firky (Jan 29, 2013)




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## equationgirl (Jan 29, 2013)

Pingu said:


> just had one of the people who works for me ask for a call this evening.
> 
> long and short of it is one of the other guys lets call him "stupid", who is new to the company has some "attitude issues" wrt women. Apparently he seems to think they (women that is) are subservient to him (as a male) and this has caused all sorts of jolly goings on today...
> 
> so 20:00 hours this evening should make my life more interesting for a bit...


He sounds completely delightful. But if he's within a probation period and doesn't improve, it might be best to part ways with him. The workplace needs fewer misogynistic twats not more


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## Jon-of-arc (Jan 29, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> He sounds completely delightful. But if he's within a probation period and doesn't improve, it might be best to part ways with him. The workplace needs fewer misogynistic twats not more



Yeah, sack the bastard. No trial, no investigation, no hearing. Show him this thread and let him know the u75 committee on political correctness has spoken. 

Sorry for the sarcasm, but surely give the guy a chance to explain himself, a firm talking to, and a word of warning that he's on your radar?

Sounds like he's probably in violation of the "don't be a (sexist) dick" rule, but surely even sexist dicks deserve the right to be heard out, and given a chance to mend their dickish ways.  He might need the job. He might have family to support. I'm not remotely in favour of sacking him outright. That would be the mark of a shit boss, someone who can't deal constructively with "interpersonal conflicts" within their team. 

Please don't think I'm apologising for any sexism, or denying that it happened, but surely this board stands something other than sacking people based on here say?


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## equationgirl (Jan 29, 2013)

Jon-of-arc said:


> Yeah, sack the bastard. No trial, no investigation, no hearing. Show him this thread and let him know the u75 committee on political correctness has spoken.
> 
> Sorry for the sarcasm, but surely give the guy a chance to explain himself, a firm talking to, and a word of warning that he's on your radar?
> 
> ...


If you read my post you would see that I said '*if he doesn't improve*'. I did not call for an immediate sacking. It's not about being political correctness, it's about disrupting an existing team dynamic to such an extent that normal work clearly couldn't proceed.

This board stands for fairness and equality. Thinking someone is subservient because they happen to be a different gender is neither fair nor equal.


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## Jon-of-arc (Jan 29, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> If you read my post you would see that I said '*if he doesn't improve*'. I did not call for an immediate sacking. It's not about being political correctness, it's about disrupting an existing team dynamic to such an extent that normal work clearly couldn't proceed.
> 
> This board stands for fairness and equality. Thinking someone is subservient because they happen to be a different gender is neither fair nor equal.



Fair enough. Missed the "if he doesn't improve" bit. Apologies for being snappy, but it seemed like someone had said "sack him" and two other people had liked the post.


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## equationgirl (Jan 29, 2013)

Jon-of-arc said:


> Fair enough. Missed the "if he doesn't improve" bit. Apologies for being snappy, but it seemed like someone had said "sack him" and two other people had liked the post.


No problem. The people liking the post would have kicked my arse if I'd said get rid without a hearing


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## friedaweed (Jan 29, 2013)

Just popping out to Tesco for the popcorn but my deck chair's in the garage so I'm afraid the sofa will have to do.

So is 20.00 hrs when Pingu's actually calling Keith Lemon or is that when Germaine Greer's popping in on him?

I loves a good trial by Urban on a Tuesday night me


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## equationgirl (Jan 29, 2013)

friedaweed said:


> Just popping out to Tesco for the popcorn but my deck chair's in the garage so I'm afraid the sofa will have to do.
> 
> So is 20.00 hrs when Pingu's actually calling Keith Lemon or is that when Germaine Greer's popping in on him?
> 
> I loves a good trial by Urban on a Tuesday night me


I think Keith's calling Pingu, but Germaine will listen on the speakerphone with a copy of 'The female eunuch' to hand


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## Pingu (Jan 29, 2013)

T -35 and counting...

maybe I will put the facts of the issue before the learned members of urban (names changed ofc) and let the urban council decide the guys fate.

there is actually a twist in this that I haven't mentioned already (as to me its something that shouldn't come into play - the behaviour is what I will look at.. nothing else unless it turns out there is a medical or other condition that needs taking into account) but it will be interesting to see urbans take on it...

I am a fair penguin but will be interested to see what you lot make of it.


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## Pingu (Jan 29, 2013)




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## equationgirl (Jan 29, 2013)

I look forward to receiving the facts of the case, Mr Penguin.


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## Pingu (Jan 29, 2013)

obv by facts I mean the one side of the story I will get tonight. having said this the person tonight is level headed and generally really easy going so it must have been bad for them to feel they needed to bring it up with me


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## equationgirl (Jan 29, 2013)

Best of luck Pingu


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## Pingu (Jan 29, 2013)

oooooooh

spin spin spin the wheel of justice.... see how fast the bastard turns...


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## Belushi (Jan 29, 2013)

Can we see a photo of the miscreant? I like to make snap judgements on looks alone.


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## High Voltage (Jan 29, 2013)

So. Is he sacked yet? [8.04]


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## Pickman's model (Jan 29, 2013)

Sack him, Pingu, and sack Jon-of-arc while you're about it


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 29, 2013)

Pingu said:


> just had one of the people who works for me ask for a call this evening..


 
I don't understand what this means.


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## ddraig (Jan 29, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> I don't understand what this means.


a call outside of work to discuss issues
cmon jc


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 29, 2013)

ddraig said:


> a call outside if work to discuss issues
> cmon jc


 
Oh. Ask for a call as in ' would you please call me tonight?' The phrasing is just not one I'm used to.


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## baldrick (Jan 29, 2013)

you should blog the conversation as it happens.


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## friedaweed (Jan 29, 2013)

I'm so excited I could pee


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## mrs quoad (Jan 29, 2013)

friedaweed said:


> I'm so excited I could pee


Have you peed yet?

e2a: I feel as if that should be pee-ed. Peeed.


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## equationgirl (Jan 29, 2013)

friedaweed said:


> I'm so excited I could pee


It is a little bit intriguing.

Pingu should have live tweeted the conversation  (not really, obviously)


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## equationgirl (Jan 29, 2013)

Belushi said:


> Can we see a photo of the miscreant? I like to make snap judgements on looks alone.


Including fashion sense and grooming?


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 29, 2013)

mrs quoad said:


> e2a: I feel as if that should be pee-ed. Peeed.


 
No doubt there will be someone out there who will oblige you.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 29, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> It is a little bit intriguing.
> 
> Pingu should have live tweeted the conversation  (not really, obviously)


 
See, if this was the US, we'd be worried that the unhappy employee has gone postal at this point.


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## Pingu (Jan 29, 2013)

oooook...

erm....

shit.

reet. this side of the, I would love to say incident but its incidents, can be summarised as follows:

" Mr stupid" for that is what we shall continue to call him seems to think that by nature of him being male he is innately superior to women in general... and to one woman in particular - who just so happens to be the clients team leader for the team he is in.

today he made a comment to another one of our people that a woman should not be in charge of men.. its not natural. This was overheard by a member of the clients development team. this then found its way back to the team lead - lets call her "Ms angry and pissed off". It further transpires that "Mr stupid" has not followed several of her directions as he does not feel he should be taking instructions from her...

This has, up to now, been managed by the onsite team we have but this has now gone far beyond what they should be dealing with.

Now this guy is seconded from our Indian company so I need to be aware that there is possibly a cultural angle to this and not just "this guy is a total dick" so it may be able to be handled with some education. But his time on that client site is now over, I will be pulling him off site as per the clients request (which I will be getting tomorrow) and we will need to see what we can do about the attitude and if we can subsequently place him elsewhere or if he should be RTU'd

I will of course speak with him and get his side of things but if the client doesn't want him onsite then irrespective of anything else he is through on that site.


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## Manter (Jan 29, 2013)

eeek.  We had one of those- a Lebanese guy who wasn't big on women in positions of authority (or black people).  Despite the cultural thing, over here there is usually something in the contract of employment or employee guide that says treat people equally regardless of gender, race, sexuality etc so we disciplined on that basis.  (We fired him in the end- he c/wouldn't change)


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## baldrick (Jan 29, 2013)

Yeah there's all manner of equality legislation you can wave at him if it gets to that stage.  I'm sure I'm not alone in being very interested in the outcome of this incident Pingu


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Jan 29, 2013)

Pingu said:


> Now this guy is seconded from our Indian company so I need to be aware that there is possibly a cultural angle to this and not just "this guy is a total dick" so it may be able to be handled with some education. But his time on that client site is now over, I will be pulling him off site as per the clients request (which I will be getting tomorrow) and we will need to see what we can do about the attitude and if we can subsequently place him elsewhere or if he should be RTU'd


 
If he's smart enough to be sent on secondment to the UK, he should have been smart enough to work out that's not how we do things here.


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## weepiper (Jan 29, 2013)

the cultural thing should not be used as an excuse.


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## Pingu (Jan 29, 2013)

not saying any cultural things should be an excuse. BUT if its something we didn't pick up on during induction etc and we can use education to sort it out...

of course it could just be he really is a dick and if that turns out to be the case he will be RTUd


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## Manter (Jan 29, 2013)

weepiper said:


> the cultural thing should not be used as an excuse.


often is though- most 'wtf?' moment of my time in HR was a regularly absent Nigerian guy, called into a disciplinary who said it was in the Nigerian culture to be absent/late and we were discriminating on the basis of national characteristics.  Only three disciplinaries I had to walk out of to laugh- that was one


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## Bob_the_lost (Jan 29, 2013)

Global Stoner said:


> If he's smart enough to be sent on secondment to the UK, he should have been smart enough to work out that's not how we do things here.


Massive over assumption there I'm afraid. Worked with a lot of staff flown in from all ends of the earth and the majority are 'middling'.


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## StoneRoad (Jan 29, 2013)

"Mr Stupid" is well out of order, and stoner / weeps are both right.

I'm surprised that this "situation" hasn't come to light before, but it needs to be sorted.
Pingu needs to hear his side.....but, IMO if he "doesn't improve" then (maybe) he needs to be elsewhere.


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Jan 29, 2013)

Bob_the_lost said:


> Massive over assumption there I'm afraid. Worked with a lot of staff flown in from all ends of the earth and the majority are 'middling'.


 
If I can be arsed to learn the customs in India when I go travelling there, it's not unreasonable to expect people to make the effort if they come here to work. Especially as I'd have thought it will be a nice pay rise for him.


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## equationgirl (Jan 29, 2013)

Cultural differences are one thing, but why work for a Western company where things will be clearly different in that case?

Pingu : definitely right to instantly remove from site. Suggest some form of re-education/reminders/cultural stuff but if he is unwilling to change his approach whilst working in a Western environment he is not the right person to work on site fullstop.

I used to have trouble with a couple of male students who had similar cultural views to your Mr Stupid when I worked in a library. Unfortunately for them, all the evening staff were women so if they wanted books, they had to interact with us. Or wait until the next day when the single male service desk worker was in.


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## weltweit (Jan 29, 2013)

So glad it is not me having to deal with this situation. I find personnel / discipline type situations quite difficult. Do you Pingu, know your organisations rights and responsibilities and / or will you have HR support?


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## Manter (Jan 29, 2013)

Global Stoner said:


> If I can be arsed to learn the customs in India when I go travelling there, it's not unreasonable to expect people to make the effort if they come here to work. Especially as I'd have thought it will be a nice pay rise for him.


nah, you do a regional differential.  So you pay him in his own currency at home at the same rate, then pay him an allowance to cover differential in the cost of living- so he can afford to eat here but you aren't exporting UK wages to the rest of the world


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## equationgirl (Jan 29, 2013)

Global Stoner said:


> If I can be arsed to learn the customs in India when I go travelling there, it's not unreasonable to expect people to make the effort if they come here to work. Especially as I'd have thought it will be a nice pay rise for him.


Yes, as a woman I know there are certain parts of the world where I would have difficulty working due to cultural differences, and I know that if I were to go to some countries I would have to dress very modestly for example. It works both ways.


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## Manter (Jan 29, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> Yes, as a woman I know there are certain parts of the world where I would have difficulty working due to cultural differences, and I know that if I were to go to some countries I would have to dress very modestly for example. It works both ways.


interestingly, less than you'd think.  I worked in Dubai for a bit and have attended a workshop in Saudi, and they never noticed what I wore, ignored my comments etc- they just seemed to regard me as a third gender, or a different species or something.  Obv I didn't wear a super mini, but just ordinary work clothes


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## Pingu (Jan 29, 2013)

whilst he is working for the UK company he is paid the UK rate - not fair to have him doing the same work as one of our own people and be paid less. in the past we have done what Manter said but that's not the way I work. if you are doing the job.. you get paid the rate for that job.

he has been with us here for 3 weeks.

yeah I know our disciplinary regs well - I wrote them 

HR support will be there but tbh they are based in Poland and don't understand UK regs. I have access to legal advice and will most certainly be taking advantage of their opinion before initiating any disciplinary proceedings.


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## Manter (Jan 29, 2013)

Pingu said:


> whilst he is working for the UK company he is paid the UK rate - not fair to have him doing the same work as one of our own people and be paid less. in the past we have done what Manter said but that's not the way I work. if you are doing the job.. you get paid the rate for that job.
> 
> he has been with us here for 3 weeks.
> 
> ...


but when he goes back he won't stay on the UK rate will he?  That's what I mean.  You pay someone an expat allowance so it is ringfenced and can be taken back when they go home- and usually keep paying in local currency in home jurisdiction for tax/continuity of benefits/covering commitments people have there reasons


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## FridgeMagnet (Jan 29, 2013)

He's not only publicly said that he doesn't think women should be in charge of men but he's also ignored a client's instructions because the representative was a woman? That's pretty fucking terrible. I can't imagine even the most old-school misogynist company liking that.

I'd say that I can't imagine people behaving like that these days but unfortunately I can.


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## cesare (Jan 29, 2013)

Pingu said:


> whilst he is working for the UK company he is paid the UK rate - not fair to have him doing the same work as one of our own people and be paid less. in the past we have done what Manter said but that's not the way I work. if you are doing the job.. you get paid the rate for



Not just unfair to him - unfair to the rest of the workforce too. Cheap labour bringing wages down, jobs that can be done with the use of local labour etc. Obv that depends on the type of job and industry sector etc as to how much of an impact it has.


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## Pickman's model (Jan 29, 2013)

wot no p45?


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## weltweit (Jan 29, 2013)

I recall a customer facing sales person with an absenteeism problem she blamed on an unnamed medical condition. She refused even to call to say she would be absent which made arranging cover harder. We started interviews with an eye to replacing her and then someone cleverly got her a job in another department where being present was seen as less important


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## geminisnake (Jan 29, 2013)

Jon-of-arc said:


> Fair enough. Missed the "if he doesn't improve" bit. Apologies for being snappy, but it seemed like someone had said "sack him" and two other people had liked the post.


 
No, I said sort him out. I never mentioned sacking  Don't projecting your shite on me young man!!


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## Manter (Jan 29, 2013)

cesare said:


> Not just unfair to him - unfair to the rest of the workforce too. Cheap labour bringing wages down, jobs that can be done with the use of local labour etc. Obv that depends on the type of job and industry sector etc as to how much of an impact it has.


See my later post- it is just as unfair if an overseas assignment gets him a salary increase- you can't take that off him and when he goes home he earns more than the rest of the team combined (though not entirely true for india as their wages in IT aren't *that* low any more).  So most international firms use a series of allowances to equalise income but keep fixed costs stable and stop international assignments distorting their international structures.  There are a couple of ways to do it- usually by regional differential (so you take his standard of living in India and basically scale it up by a numerator provided by a firm that does such things), by comp ratio- so it he is at 82% of the M3 ratio in india, that is what you give him in the host country (advantage being that historical performance etc is reflected, year end process can go ahead as usual and you can do back to back assignments easily), and by living allowance, where a 'reasonable' amount is given to the transferee- that's the old fashioned way as it has no structure and opens more questions than it closes.  regional differential is cleaner in terms of tax and benefits, comp ratio is better if you are developing a hipo and expect to move them a lot.


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## Pingu (Jan 29, 2013)

Manter said:


> but when he goes back he won't stay on the UK rate will he? That's what I mean. You pay someone an expat allowance so it is ringfenced and can be taken back when they go home- and usually keep paying in local currency in home jurisdiction for tax/continuity of benefits/covering commitments people have there reasons


 
yes sorry that side is correct. he remains an employee of <indian company> but whilst over here his total salary is what we would pay the equivalent UK worker - paid via the indian company.

FridgeMagnet - I agree, but I have to hear his side first. My instinct is to just RTU him (if its true) but its a bit more complicated that that from an intercompany POV. if I just RTU him it will get messy unless I can say we have explored other options as well.


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## Pickman's model (Jan 29, 2013)

Pingu said:


> yes sorry that side is correct. he remains an employee of <indian company> but whilst over here his total salary is what we would pay the equivalent UK worker.
> 
> FridgeMagnet - I agree, but I have to hear his side first. My instinct is to just RTU him (if its true) but its a bit more complicated that that from an intercompany POV. if I just RTU him it will get messy unless I can say we have explored other options as well.





Pickman's model said:


> wot no p45?


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## Manter (Jan 29, 2013)

Pingu said:


> yes sorry that side is correct. he remains an employee of <indian company> but whilst over here his total salary is what we would pay the equivalent UK worker.
> .


That makes sense- but it how that salary is made up- and I bet it isn't called salary, as that causes legal issues when you withdraw it. Expat management is a nightmare....


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## Pickman's model (Jan 29, 2013)

Manter said:


> That makes sense- but it how that salary is made up- and I bet it isn't called salary, as that causes legal issues when you withdraw it. Expat management is a nightmare....


give him his bfh


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## Pingu (Jan 29, 2013)

the indian company invoices us - they are two physically separate legal entities.. just under the same group


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## Pingu (Jan 29, 2013)

@pickmans.. cant sack him as he is not an employee of ours. I can however send him back to india.

this would cuase contractual "things" but there are clauses in the contract between us and the indian company I can invoke to cover this off


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## sleaterkinney (Jan 29, 2013)

tbh we have a lot of 3rd party Indians working with us and I've never noticed any gender issues - but then again I am a bloke.

If he's disregarding clients instructions it could be that he's a bit of a cowboy anyway.


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## Manter (Jan 29, 2013)

Pingu said:


> the indian company invoices us - they are two physically separate legal entities.. just under the same group


I don't think people realise how much work HR put into getting expats in the right place, on the right income etc- the invoicing mechanism makes sense from a finance pov, but where is he paid? in what currency? what are the tax and exchange rate implications?  How is he using a UK bank account without UK history etc- all I mean is that as a line manager, you get a warm body fresh off the plane, and an invoice....  you don't see the amount of heavy lifting that goes on in the background to make sure the employee and the company remain compliant and functional

/derail, sorry


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## cesare (Jan 29, 2013)

Manter I've subsequently seen your later post, yes  However my point isn't about how to structure international secondments from a business's point of view (ie optimising profit) but from a local labour relations point of view - and mitigating the effect of expropriation of surplus labour value.


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## geminisnake (Jan 29, 2013)

What does RTU mean??


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## sleaterkinney (Jan 29, 2013)

Manter said:


> I don't think people realise how much work HR put into getting expats in the right place,


Nowt as far as i can see, the Indian company supplies a body and that's it.


Manter said:


> on the right income etc- the invoicing mechanism makes sense from a finance pov, but where is he paid? in what currency? what are the tax and exchange rate implications? How is he using a UK bank account without UK history etc- all I mean is that as a line manager, you get a warm body fresh off the plane, and an invoice.... you don't see the amount of heavy lifting that goes on in the background to make sure the employee and the company remain compliant and functional
> 
> /derail, sorry


The indian company invoices the british one and pays the Indian guy 30% maybe, keeping the rest for itself.


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## Manter (Jan 29, 2013)

sleaterkinney said:


> Nowt as far as i can see, the Indian company supplies a body and that's it.
> The indian company invoices the british one and pays the Indian guy 30% maybe, keeping the rest for itself.


No, because in that case the Indian can't afford to eat while he is here....


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## Manter (Jan 29, 2013)

cesare said:


> Manter I've subsequently seen your later post, yes  However my point isn't about how to structure international secondments from a business's point of view (ie optimising profit) but from a local labour relations point of view - and mitigating the effect of expropriation of surplus labour value.


The team in the UK are living on the same income while he is in the UK- that's the point. The expat piece isn't all about maximising profit or you would move people from low cost countries, pay them next to nothing and probably put them up in dormitories. As in fact is common in china....


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## equationgirl (Jan 29, 2013)

sleaterkinney said:


> tbh we have a lot of 3rd party Indians working with us and I've never noticed any gender issues - but then again I am a bloke.
> 
> *If he's disregarding clients instructions it could be that he's a bit of a cowboy anyway*.


^^^This. Never disregard client instructions.

Which is why I'm very annoyed at a consultant at the moment. They were supposed to deliver a final report the first week of Jan but didn't. I told them last week that as they had taken a three week extension to the deadline with asking or even informing us I wanted the final report by Friday last week. I came in on Monday to find an incomplete document marked draft in my inbox. Well annoyed


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## sleaterkinney (Jan 29, 2013)

Manter said:


> No, because in that case the Indian can't afford to eat while he is here....


It was an exaggeration but even so this guy is getting sent out to client sites so he is probably bringing in a decent whack....


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## sleaterkinney (Jan 29, 2013)

Manter said:


> The team in the UK are living on the same income while he is in the UK- that's the point. The expat piece isn't all about maximising profit or you would move people from low cost countries, pay them next to nothing and probably put them up in dormitories. As in fact is common in china....


The expat piece is 100% about maximising profit.


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## Pickman's model (Jan 29, 2013)

geminisnake said:


> What does RTU mean??


return to unit


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## cesare (Jan 29, 2013)

Manter said:


> The team in the UK are living on the same income while he is in the UK- that's the point. The expat piece isn't all about maximising profit or you would move people from low cost countries, pay them next to nothing and probably put them up in dormitories. As in fact is common in china....


I said optimising profit, not maximising it. However it's structured, his overall rem shouldn't be less in the UK than for comparable local labour. Note I also said that the impact on the local labour force depends on the type of job and sector.


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## Manter (Jan 29, 2013)

cesare said:


> I said optimising profit, not maximising it. However it's structured, his overall rem shouldn't be less in the UK than for comparable local labour. Note I also said that the impact on the local labour force depends on the type of job and sector.


I've never known of a situation where an expat is paid less than local staff- but also never come across a situation where its remuneration, rather than a series of allowances.


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## dylanredefined (Jan 29, 2013)

He is Mr Stupid. 
 If you work in a different country you learn about the culture you have to work in it.


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## Manter (Jan 29, 2013)

sleaterkinney said:


> The expat piece is 100% about maximising profit.


no, its about lots of things including staff development, skills transfer, cost control, business development, etc etc


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## cesare (Jan 29, 2013)

Manter said:


> I've never known of a situation where an expat is paid less than local staff- but also never come across a situation where its remuneration, rather than a series of allowances.


There have been some notable incidents of industrial unrest caused by businesses bringing cheaper labour from overseas to carry out contracts.


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## Manter (Jan 29, 2013)

cesare said:


> There have been some notable incidents of industrial unrest caused by businesses bringing cheaper labour from overseas to carry out contracts.


that isn't expats though, is it- that's hiring spanish builders then bringing them over (if I remember one case correctly)- its back to my chinese example. a skilled IT specialist that has been transferred from an overseas arm of the firm is on an existing contract and will be repatriated at the end of the assignment- different kettle of fish to a foreigner who is employed on local terms, potentially cheaply because they just got off the boat and don't know/care to argue


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## sleaterkinney (Jan 29, 2013)

Manter said:


> no, its about lots of things including staff development, skills transfer, cost control, business development, etc etc


Outsourcing is about getting people with the same skills cheaper. In Pingu's case it doesn't matter that they pay the same rate as a UK employee as it's more profit for the Indian subsidiary.


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## cesare (Jan 29, 2013)

Manter said:


> that isn't expats though, is it- that's hiring spanish builders then bringing them over (if I remember one case correctly)- its back to my chinese example. a skilled IT specialist that has been transferred from an overseas arm of the firm is on an existing contract and will be repatriated at the end of the assignment- different kettle of fish to a foreigner who is employed on local terms, potentially cheaply because they just got off the boat and don't know/care to argue


At what point does overseas labour become "expat"?


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## FridgeMagnet (Jan 29, 2013)

Pingu said:


> FridgeMagnet - I agree, but I have to hear his side first. My instinct is to just RTU him (if its true) but its a bit more complicated that that from an intercompany POV. if I just RTU him it will get messy unless I can say we have explored other options as well.


Oh sure, it doesn't necessarily mean "clear your desk" but if those aspects are true that's serious shit. I'd make sure he was moved off the project (because the client will hate him) and give - or insist that the other company give - a really serious "we are not fucking about here, you sort your attitude out mate and this is the last warning you'll get" message.

If he's employed by somebody else I would also look carefully at how they respond to this, and raise it higher up if they look like they're dismissing it, because it could be a corporate culture issue.


----------



## weltweit (Jan 29, 2013)

Anyhow, the problem with Mr Stupid is that he did not do what was requested or instructed by a senior person and made sexist comments to colleagues.


----------



## Manter (Jan 29, 2013)

cesare said:


> At what point does overseas labour become "expat"?


Existing contract and continuity of service.  So if I work for (e.g.) Unilever in the US and they move me to Europe, I am an expat.  If I happen to be american and get a job for Unilever in the UK, I am not an expat- I am either a regular employee, or, in some situations, you may go for 'local terms' (you hire on UK T&Cs but with certain provisions made for the tax/benefit status of the individual).  If you hire someone on an expat contract you hire them in the home country even if they never work a day there, and they remain on home T&Cs.  Host country is only ever an addendum or supplemental to the contract of employment, which remains with home country- the intention is to return someone home when they are done in the host country.  that may never happen due to consecutive assignments (the tax complication on those is enough to make you cry) or an individual localising ie becoming to all intents and purposes a local (UK in the example above) employee.


----------



## Manter (Jan 29, 2013)

sleaterkinney said:


> Outsourcing is about getting people with the same skills cheaper. In Pingu's case it doesn't matter that they pay the same rate as a UK employee as it's more profit for the Indian subsidiary.


outsourcing is something different- outsourcing is getting the activity done by a third party.  
Outsouring- paying a third party to do an activity
Offshoring- is getting it done by a party in a different location (which may be nearshore, as if it isn't complicated enough- ie in a country nearby.  Offshoring to Poland from the UK is usually considered nearshore).  
Offshoring can be outsourced, ie by a third party, or it can be captive, ie part of the main company.  
Outsourcing- getting stuff done by a third party, is technically just to use their skill set- it may or may not reduce costs (often doesn't, but that is a different story)- most outsourcings that do go off shore have a hub and spoke solution where there is local ie onshore staff as well as a service centre or whatever.

What Pingu is talking about is an international assignment, referred to as an expatriate assignment, as the individual has been expatriated from the place where his contract of employment is held


----------



## cesare (Jan 29, 2013)

Manter said:


> Existing contract and continuity of service.  So if I work for (e.g.) Unilever in the US and they move me to Europe, I am an expat.  If I happen to be american and get a job for Unilever in the UK, I am not an expat- I am either a regular employee, or, in some situations, you may go for 'local terms' (you hire on UK T&Cs but with certain provisions made for the tax/benefit status of the individual).  If you hire someone on an expat contract you hire them in the home country even if they never work a day there, and they remain on home T&Cs.  Host country is only ever an addendum or supplemental to the contract of employment, which remains with home country- the intention is to return someone home when they are done in the host country.  that may never happen due to consecutive assignments (the tax complication on those is enough to make you cry) or an individual localising ie becoming to all intents and purposes a local (UK in the example above) employee.


Moving labour around between countries doesn't happen unless there's profit in doing so, right?


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## FridgeMagnet (Jan 29, 2013)

cesare said:


> Moving labour around between countries doesn't happen unless there's profit in doing so, right?


Well, unless there's a _perceived potential_ profit or benefit. I've seen some very unprofitable movements take place.


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## Manter (Jan 29, 2013)

cesare said:


> Moving labour around between countries doesn't happen unless there's profit in doing so, right?


Depends what you mean.  There needs to be a reason- it is often longer term profit, ie developing a business, or a individual, making a multi-national relationship work better etc.  Expats are very expensive- they cost on average 3x local workers, by the time you've sorted tax, relocation, allowances, family support, etc etc, which is why localisation is increasingly popular.  But companies still move people internationally in order to run international businesses.

So, for example, I've been expated- there was no short term profit in it except that I delivered something that people locally couldn't have delivered.  But I cost a fortune doing it.  One of my friends is married to an expat American- he is expatted to learn about European markets before they take him home and he moves into a senior position- the organisation needs him to understand the global business.

You don't run an expat process because its cheap and leads to short term profit that is ascribed to the bottom line, but there needs to be some business upside in it, or there is no point in doing it


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## sleaterkinney (Jan 29, 2013)

Manter, I'm not sure why you're giving me all those definitions and you haven't argued against the reason why I said Pingu's company were doing what they are doing. Follow the money.


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## cesare (Jan 29, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Well, unless there's a _perceived potential_ profit or benefit. I've seen some very unprofitable movements take place.


Yes, there will always be examples of it being done badly  But if it was generally an overall cost to global businesses, it wouldn't happen.


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## Manter (Jan 29, 2013)

sleaterkinney said:


> Manter, I'm not sure why you're giving me all those definitions and you haven't argued against the reason why I said Pingu's company were doing what they are doing. Follow the money.


you were using the wrong terms so I assumed you weren't clear on the meaning of them.  My guess would be @Pingu's firm operate a multishore model where solutions are delivered partly locally and partly offshore, and the indian involved usually works on the offshore site.  Its my guess he has been brought over here to learn how the UK organisation works, see client activity up close, share information on the offshore part of the business and so allow/help the organisation to deliver solutions more effectively in the future.

None of that is outsourcing.  Unless the indian individual is from an outsourcing provider, which Pingu hasn't mentioned, in which case he is a secondment and an expat assignment


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## FridgeMagnet (Jan 29, 2013)

cesare said:


> Yes, there will always be examples of it being done badly  But if it was generally an overall cost to global businesses, it wouldn't happen.


There's also the issue of breaking up local labour practices and organisation - which exist even in IT. Even if there's actually an excess cost that results from that, it would still be a motivation in a lot of cases. (That's why I added "benefit" there....)


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## Manter (Jan 29, 2013)

cesare said:


> Yes, there will always be examples of it being done badly  But if it was generally an overall cost to global businesses, it wouldn't happen.


it is a cost- that is usually justified as an investment


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## cesare (Jan 29, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> There's also the issue of breaking up local labour practices and organisation - which exist even in IT. Even if there's actually an excess cost that results from that, it would still be a motivation in a lot of cases. (That's why I added "benefit" there....)


Exactly.


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## Manter (Jan 29, 2013)

cesare said:


> Exactly.


you've usually broken up the local labour conditions when you have set up a offshore or follow the sun model in the first place- because you've changed processes, set up new KPIs or SLAs.... moving an indian IT specialist to the UK for a bit doesn't make much difference....


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## cesare (Jan 29, 2013)

Manter said:


> it is a cost- that is usually justified as an investment


It might be a cost (investment) in your milieu, but that doesn't necessarily apply to all businesses - some of which have business models that rely on the importing of cheap labour eg oil and construction.


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## sleaterkinney (Jan 29, 2013)

Manter said:


> you were using the wrong terms so I assumed you weren't clear on the meaning of them.


No I'm not, Pingu's company is paying a third party to do some work. It has outsourced some labour.



Manter said:


> My guess would be @Pingu's firm operate a multishore model where solutions are delivered partly locally and partly offshore, and the indian involved usually works on the offshore site.
> Its my guess he has been brought over here to learn how the UK organisation works, see client activity up close, share information on the offshore part of the business and so allow/help the organisation to deliver solutions more effectively in the future.


Maybe you should stop_ guessing._


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## Manter (Jan 29, 2013)

sleaterkinney said:


> No I'm not, Pingu's company is paying a third party to do some work. It has outsourced some labour.
> 
> 
> Maybe you should stop_ guessing._


Post 30, 'seconded from our Indian company'


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## Winot (Jan 29, 2013)

Uh? How is this outsourcing?



Pingu said:


> Now this guy is seconded from our Indian company


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## Pickman's model (Jan 29, 2013)

Manter said:


> Post 30, 'seconded from our Indian company'


= they couldn't stand him either


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## sleaterkinney (Jan 29, 2013)

Manter said:


> Post 30, 'seconded from our Indian company'





> he remains an employee of <indian company>





> the indian company invoices us - they are two physically separate legal entities


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## Pingu (Jan 29, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Well, unless there's a _perceived potential_ profit or benefit. I've seen some very unprofitable movements take place.


 
in this particular case it was a skills shortage. there are not many people in the world who know Ab Initio webservices, Metadata Hub and Data Profiler in any detail.

profit wise.. we (the UK company ) get profit as we can fulfil - or could a contract - we may still be able to but there is going to have to be a lot of damage limitation done. the Indian Company I am not sure what happens there tbh but I guess they will make something from it even if its just increased turnover. We do ensure anyone who is seconded in this way receives the full amount they are due though so no skimming off the top of it for the Indian Company - its a contractual obligation and is clearly defined in the contract. They saw it as a good opportunity for their staff to get experience in working outside of India. I could have just gone to the EU contract market but we try to use "internal" resources first wherever possible and this guy was available and had good references from the previous places he had worked. This makes the engagements more profitable for us but also ensures that personal development occurs within the group of companies -  qv I was going to go to the states to do some work for Wells Fargo via the US company and regularly do work for our Eastern and central European company (in fact I am out there next week).

this allows for internal skills transfer and for people to gain experience in areas they may not otherwise see.

Anyhow will update after I have spoken with him in the morning


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## Pingu (Jan 29, 2013)

sleaterkinney said:


> No I'm not, Pingu's company is paying a third party to do some work. It has outsourced some labour.
> 
> 
> Maybe you should stop_ guessing._


 
maybe manter is pretty accurate in some of the guessing...

the company he came from is our indian sister company. each region is a physically separate entity but we operate under a global group banner and aside from the accounting bits operate as one company.


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## Manter (Jan 29, 2013)

cesare said:


> It might be a cost (investment) in your milieu, but that doesn't necessarily apply to all businesses - some of which have business models that rely on the importing of cheap labour eg oil and construction.


We are talking here about a guy seconded from an Indian company, not a plan to hire large numbers of foreign workers and ship them round the world. Which is unusual even in construction and oil, they usually let the foreign workers come to them and hire them as locals- the cost differential has to be huge for organisations to take on workers in one location and ship them to another- common in china, but the employment market is radically different over there.   Not sure what my 'milieu' is- I advise companies on operate in a multinational environment and have reviewed expat schemes as part of that a fair few times. Operating in a multinational environment means I have been on an expat contract, but you look at the whole company. That may mean considering the location of a service centre, or factory or whatever, or where you can get workers from (eg Kazakhstan doesn't have the workers with the skills they need to operate in the conditions they need to operate in, so they need foreign workers- you look at the solution for the whole oil production site, consider expatting some, some you give high return contracts, etc etc


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## Manter (Jan 29, 2013)

Winot said:


> Uh? How is this outsourcing?


It isn't


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## cesare (Jan 29, 2013)

Just out of interest, Pingu, how have you found the mechanics of the secondment? I've recently had a client (an individual in this instance) who was seconded over here from India. Global company but they were absolutely clueless, particularly at the Indian end.


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## sleaterkinney (Jan 29, 2013)

Pingu said:


> maybe manter is pretty accurate in some of the guessing...
> 
> the company he came from is our indian sister company. each region is a physically separate entity but we operate under a global group banner and aside from the accounting bits operate as one company.


Fair enough - maybe drawing from my own experiences too much. Even though it is part of the same group the situation as you described it earlier just sounded like regular outsourcing to me


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## Manter (Jan 29, 2013)

J&J for example, is 250 separate legal entities- doesn't mean one outsources to another


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 29, 2013)

Pingu said:


> just had one of the people who works for me ask for a call this evening.
> 
> long and short of it is one of the other guys lets call him "stupid", who is new to the company has some "attitude issues" wrt women. Apparently he seems to think they (women that is) are subservient to him (as a male) and this has caused all sorts of jolly goings on today...
> 
> so 20:00 hours this evening should make my life more interesting for a bit...


 
I think it's ok for an employee to post about things the employer does; it has to do with the directions of the power relationship.

Not so sure it's ok for an employer to go onto a blog and complain about an employee.


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## Pingu (Jan 29, 2013)

cesare said:


> Just out of interest, Pingu, how have you found the mechanics of the secondment? I've recently had a client (an individual in this instance) who was seconded over here from India. Global company but they were absolutely clueless, particularly at the Indian end.


 

In the main I have found the indian guys we have used before to be fine. they have a different way of working but our internal training programme irons out most of the wrinkles. it is however a very very niche area we operate in and its not a skill you can aquire in university etc, its very product specific and the only way to get training is to work for a company that uses the product - there are no publicly available training courses.

I know from other parts of the company that there have been issues with the more generic skillsets and people supplied by india but for what we do its very easy to weed out people who are blagging it.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Jan 29, 2013)

Manter said:


> J&J for example, is 250 separate legal entities- doesn't mean one outsources to another


I've explained why I thought it was outsourcing. Should I just leave you to it?


----------



## Manter (Jan 29, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> I think it's ok for an employee to post about things the employer does; it has to do with the directions of the power relationship.
> 
> Not so sure it's ok for an employer to go onto a blog and complain about an employee.


He's not an employer, he's a manager. And there is nothing he's said that identifies, even vaguely, who it is and where etc. he's been v careful.


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## Pickman's model (Jan 29, 2013)

Manter said:


> He's not an employer, he's a manager. And there is nothing he's said that identifies, even vaguely, who it is and where etc. he's been v careful.


yeh too careful. if there'd been a bit of indiscretion i would have enjoyed the thread more.


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## Pingu (Jan 29, 2013)

sleaterkinney said:


> I've explained why I thought it was outsourcing. Should I just leave you to it?


 

lol - I can see where you were coming from. if we had done exactly the same thing but outside of the group I would agree it was outsourcing. I guess technically it is but ... its not IYKWIM


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## cesare (Jan 29, 2013)

Pingu said:


> In the main I have found the indian guys we have used before to be fine. they have a different way of working but our internal training programme irons out most of the wrinkles. it is however a very very niche area we operate in and its not a skill you can aquire in university etc, its very product specific and the only way to get training is to work for a company that uses the product - there are no publicly available training courses.
> 
> I know from other parts of the company that there have been issues with the more generic skillsets and people supplied by india but for what we do its very easy to weed out people who are blagging it.


Aye, you've explained to me before how niche it is. You've also been quite specific as to the skills ... There's no chance this guy is identifiable is there?

My question was more about the mechanics of contract, currency, cross charging blah blah. It was just an aside tbh.


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## Pingu (Jan 29, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh too careful. if there'd been a bit of indiscretion i would have enjoyed the thread more.


 


tbh at first I didn't think it was as serious as its turned out (subject to confirmation) to be. it I did I wouldn't have posted anything. I thought it was just "laddish behaviour" that I could have easily dealt with but as it turns out (again subject to confirmation) it isn't. there was actually something in an earlier post that I removed just in case that if you spotted it could have given you the country the incident took place in. just to be on the safe side I removed the reference.


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## Firky (Jan 29, 2013)

I'd hate to be referred to as "the Indian"


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## Pingu (Jan 29, 2013)

cesare said:


> Aye, you've explained to me before how niche it is. You've also been quite specific as to the skills ... There's no chance this guy is identifiable is there?
> 
> My question was more about the mechanics of contract, currency, cross charging blah blah. It was just an aside tbh.


 

nah, its a rare skillset but not that rare. I did some careful considerations before posting that.

mechanics wise... all I see is the cross charging, I don't really care how the accounts show it (but would guess it shows as an intercompany transaction)


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## FridgeMagnet (Jan 29, 2013)

I realise that I said "I'd say that I can't imagine people behaving like that these days but unfortunately I can" which might be misinterpreted here - I'd like to say that while I've worked with lots of teams abroad, I don't mean to imply that I associate sexist attitudes with foreigners, because that would be (a) racist and (b) untrue. It is unfortunately something I've seen everywhere. In fact the worst examples have been in the US, in my experience, but that doesn't mean that I think US citizens are any more sexist than anyone else either.


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## Puddy_Tat (Jan 29, 2013)

firky said:


> I'd hate to be referred to as "the Indian".


 


sleaterkinney said:


> it could be that he's a bit of a cowboy anyway.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 29, 2013)

firky said:


> I'd hate to be referred to as "the Indian".


you already are


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## cesare (Jan 29, 2013)

Pingu said:


> nah, its a rare skillset but not that rare. I did some careful considerations before posting that.
> 
> mechanics wise... all I see is the cross charging, I don't really care how the accounts show it (but would guess it shows as an intercompany transaction)


Yeah, I know you're careful. Just thought I'd double check.

The mechanics thing, just professional curiosity tbh. Doesn't matter, but thanks.


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## Firky (Jan 29, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> you already are


 

Coffee, Chalky, Chocolate Drop, the Indian.

Oh I don't know - there's just an air to this thread I don't like but what do I know about management.

That's tuppence.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 29, 2013)

firky said:


> Coffee, Chalky, Chocolate Drop, The Indian.
> 
> Oh I don't know - there's just an air to this thread I don't like but what do I know about management.


i've long assumed it was because you liked takeaways.


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## Pingu (Jan 29, 2013)

firky said:


> Coffee, Chalky, Chocolate Drop, the Indian.
> 
> Oh I don't know - there's just an air to this thread I don't like but what do I know about management.
> 
> That's tuppence.


 

mans got a point.


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## FridgeMagnet (Jan 29, 2013)

firky said:


> Coffee, Chalky, Chocolate Drop, the Indian.
> 
> Oh I don't know - there's just an air to this thread I don't like but what do I know about management.
> 
> That's tuppence.


No, I know what you mean. I don't think anyone here means that but it would be easy for somebody to surf along here, see the thread and say "yeah those Indians eh, they have a problem with women".


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## cesare (Jan 29, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> No, I know what you mean. I don't think anyone here means that but it would be easy for somebody to surf along here, see the thread and say "yeah those Indians eh, they have a problem with women".


Plus scratching the surface of the labour power and profit relationship can seem dehumanising.


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## Firky (Jan 29, 2013)

Us and them.

It's like eaves dropping in on a 1980s boardroom.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 29, 2013)

Manter said:


> He's not an employer, he's a manager. And there is nothing he's said that identifies, even vaguely, who it is and where etc. he's been v careful.


 
I suppose. Given the time of the op, it looks as if he was at work. I wouldn't post something about an employee from a work computer, nor would I open a site on my work computer where I'd made such a comment. I take it as a given that the sysadmin and others have access to what I do. The possibility exists that such a post could either get back to the person, or could become a subject of conversation amongst other employees.


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## FridgeMagnet (Jan 29, 2013)

cesare said:


> Plus scratching the surface of the labour power and profit relationship can seem dehumanising.


Examining it whilst trying to justify it can definitely _be_ dehumanising.


----------



## weltweit (Jan 29, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> No, I know what you mean. I don't think anyone here means that but it would be easy for somebody to surf along here, see the thread and say "yeah those Indians eh, they have a problem with women".


And yet, India has been in the news recently after a vicious rape and the resulting protests.
Just saying.


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## Firky (Jan 29, 2013)

I reckon if I was Fridgemagnet or editor I'd have gone postal with the ban button years ago. Although Fridgemagnet did delete a load of my and hundreds of other people's posts by "accident".


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jan 29, 2013)




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## UnderAnOpenSky (Jan 30, 2013)

All those lost posts. 

Shit it's 2013.


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## binka (Jan 30, 2013)

firky said:


> Although Fridgemagnet did delete a load of my ... posts by "accident".


yes a tragic case of cultural vandalism. really puts whats happened in timbuktu into perspective


----------



## Jon-of-arc (Jan 30, 2013)

geminisnake said:


> No, I said sort him out. I never mentioned sacking  Don't projecting your shite on me young man!!



I never said anything about what you said. And what on earth do you mean about "projecting my shite"?


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## extra dry (Jan 30, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> He's not only publicly said that he doesn't think women should be in charge of men but he's also ignored a client's instructions because the representative was a woman? That's pretty fucking terrible. I can't imagine even the most old-school misogynist company liking that.
> 
> I'd say that I can't imagine people behaving like that these days but unfortunately I can.


 
I have the total displeasure of working with an English guy who judges a womans performance on 'how good they look' the guy is total twit.


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## ymu (Jan 30, 2013)

weltweit said:


> And yet, India has been in the news recently after a vicious rape and the resulting protests.
> Just saying.


Meanwhile, we've had Jimmy Savile hot on the heels of Rochdale and Worboys. What the fuck are you trying to "just say"?




Manter said:


> The team in the UK are living on the same income while he is in the UK- that's the point. The expat piece isn't all about maximising profit or you would move people from low cost countries, pay them next to nothing and probably put them up in dormitories. As in fact is common in china....


And increasingly common here thanks to the EU Posted Workers' Directive. You're talking about the extremely privileged end of the employment market. By definition, the exception rather than the norm.


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## stuff_it (Jan 30, 2013)

geminisnake said:


> What does RTU mean??


Think it's management speak for 'return to sender, do not pass go, etc'.


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## Pingu (Jan 30, 2013)

spoke with both the guy and the clients team leader this morning and.. the guy is a dick

the team lead is pretty pissed off, to put it mildly, and wont allow him back on site so that kinda takes one decision out of my hands.

the guy himself cant see that he has done anything wrong. he did make the comments and has downgraded priorities of work passed to him from the team lead. he was at pains to try to point out that we need to understand his cultural background and make allowances for it in where we place him.... this went down REALLY well. there was little desire to see that what he did was not acceptable in the country (nearly slipped up there) where he was based and that the UK company in particular had strong policies that made this sort of behaviour unacceptable. Mr Pingu does not have to "try to understand that in his culture this is the norm and its not normal for a man to be dictated to by a women". IME none of the other people we have engaged from the Indian subcontinent (OK for you Firky?) have had this attitude so even though I am not an expert on the culture I am going to call "bollocks" on that.

so .. its back to india for him


----------



## Pingu (Jan 30, 2013)

geminisnake said:


> What does RTU mean??


 

sorry it means return to unit. its a hangover from my time hanging out with rufty tufty types with a penchant for going for 5 mile runs at 6 am and jumping out of perfectly good aeroplanes. Normally used when someone transfers in, can't make the grade so they are returned to their original unit.


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## ymu (Jan 30, 2013)

I don't think firky was referring to your decision to name the country of origin. "The Indian guy" would have been a perfectly acceptable alternative to "the Indian" (IMO).

The cultural excuse holds no water at all. Even if he wasn't intelligent enough to have done his cultural homework, middle-class Indian feminists have been making the same arguments as middle-class European feminists and have made similar (much resented) progress in law vis-a-vis the workplace. It's the worst place in the world to be a woman according to some UN or similar report, but that's primarily for poor women who cannot afford to access education and have no real protection under the law. It's a lot closer to Europe for middle-class types, of which he is one.


----------



## cesare (Jan 30, 2013)

ymu said:


> I don't think firky was referring to your decision to name the country of origin. "The Indian guy" would have been a perfectly acceptable alternative to "the Indian" (IMO).
> 
> The cultural excuse holds no water at all. Even if he wasn't intelligent enough to have done his cultural homework, middle-class Indian feminists have been making the same arguments as middle-class European feminists and have made similar (much resented) progress in law vis-a-vis the workplace. It's the worst place in the world to be a woman according to some UN or similar report, but that's primarily for poor women who cannot afford to access education and have no real protection under the law. It's a lot closer to Europe for middle-class types, of which he is one.


 
Although ... we don't really know enough about his background to make any assumptions as to his class and culture apart from the job that he is doing (which may or may not be a class marker) and what he says about his culture v Pingu's/our understanding of the class/caste driven culture. We also don't know what orientation he was given for the country that he was assigned to and over what period.

Be that as it may, as Pingu says the decision has for the most part been taken out of his hands; and for whatever reason/factors it was a decision that needed to be made quickly.


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## Fuchs66 (Jan 30, 2013)

Bob_the_lost said:


> Massive over assumption there I'm afraid. Worked with a lot of staff flown in from all ends of the earth and the majority are 'middling'.


Agree on this, mainly (IME) because people from certain regions dont get sent on lucrative overseas assignments because they are the best people for the job but rather they have the best contacts/pay the better bribes etc etc. It's something I've seen a few times.

Not saying it doesn't happen to a degree everywhere but in certain regions it seems more the norm than others.


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## Fuchs66 (Jan 30, 2013)

Pingu said:


> We do ensure anyone who is seconded in this way receives the full amount they are due though *so no skimming off the top of it for the Indian Company* - its a contractual obligation and is clearly defined in the contract.


How do you ensure that this doesn't happen? I've heard a few cases of Indian employees having to pay a percentage of their higher overseas income to the person/s who "arranged" for them to get that position.


----------



## Pingu (Jan 30, 2013)

Fuchs66 said:


> How do you ensure that this doesn't happen? I've heard a few cases of Indian employees having to pay a percentage of their higher overseas income to the person/s who "arranged" for them to get that position.


 
tbh I am not sure. the group has the same CEO across all companies and this has been signed off by him. no one has ever complained that they have had money deducted. if they have done so then technically they are in breach of the contract but whether anything would be done about it is uncertain. I cant rally see the UK company suing the Indian company. I will ask the finance director about this next time I see him

I guess the underlying check is that a shitstorm would occur if we found out that one part of the group was telling porkies to another part of the group.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jan 30, 2013)

weltweit said:
			
		

> Anyhow, the problem with Mr Stupid is that he did not do what was requested or instructed by a senior person and made sexist comments to colleagues.



Both of which are gross miscobduct.


----------



## Fuchs66 (Jan 30, 2013)

Pingu said:


> tbh I am not sure. the group has the same CEO across all companies and this has been signed off by him. no one has ever complained that they have had money deducted. if they have done so then technically they are in breach of the contract but whether anything would be done about it is uncertain. I cant rally see the UK company suing the Indian company. I will ask the finance director about this next time I see him
> 
> I guess the underlying check is that a shitstorm would occur if we found out that one part of the group was telling porkies to another part of the group.


Thing is the CEO is unlikely to be the fixer (unless it was an extremely high level job) also there are unlikely to be any complaints especially if on the Indian side it is seen as the norm and that anyone percieved to be "rocking the boat" wouldn't get the chance of a higher paid foreign asssignment again ( and more than likely would lose their job in India too).


----------



## cesare (Jan 30, 2013)

Pingu said:


> tbh I am not sure. the group has the same CEO across all companies and this has been signed off by him. no one has ever complained that they have had money deducted. if they have done so then technically they are in breach of the contract but whether anything would be done about it is uncertain. I cant rally see the UK company suing the Indian company. I will ask the finance director about this next time I see him
> 
> I guess the underlying check is that a shitstorm would occur if we found out that one part of the group was telling porkies to another part of the group.


One way of approaching that (and it's a very very good point that Fuchs made) is to incorporate it into the Bribery Policy and procedures. It's another example of one of the reasons that the Bribery Act was enacted and there are certain regions where "arrangement fees" (backhanders, call it what you will) are a cultural norm.


----------



## Pingu (Jan 30, 2013)

Fuchs66 said:


> Thing is the CEO is unlikely to be the fixer (unless it was an extremely high level job) also there are unlikely to be any complaints especially if on the Indian side it is seen as the norm and that anyone percieved to be "rocking the boat" wouldn't get the chance of a higher paid foreign asssignment again ( and more than likely would lose their job in India too).


 

possibly. not much I can do about that though if that is the case. I do know that if anyone was found to be taking bribes to place people, especially if that placement damaged the company or its reputation, they would be in deep shit. ours is a very niche industry and our reputation is what wins us contracts over the large SIs like Accenture etc. if that reputation is lost we will go out of business very quickly


----------



## weltweit (Jan 30, 2013)

ymu said:


> ....
> What the fuck are you trying to "just say"?


Simple, India does not have a good reputation where gender equality is concerned.


----------



## friedaweed (Jan 30, 2013)

*Returns to thread from long pee.

So he's defo a dick

Can we kill him now?
(Obvs once we've acknowledged his cultural differences )


----------



## weltweit (Jan 30, 2013)

friedaweed said:


> ....
> Can we kill him now?
> (Obvs once we've acknowledged his cultural differences )


 
I think the explanation is - So Mr Stupid, you have completed your assignment with us early so you will now return to India. Thanks!


----------



## ymu (Jan 30, 2013)

weltweit said:


> Simple, India does not have a good reputation where gender equality is concerned.


And you thought that the fact that a rape happened there recently was good enough evidence to back up your assertion with? Because rape is definitely not a problem in Europe? Doesn't happen. Not 'real' rape anyway.

There's a recent UN report you could quote on why it's the worst place in the world to be a woman, if you're that desperate to play the ranking game.


----------



## friedaweed (Jan 30, 2013)

weltweit said:


> I think the explanation is - So Mr Stupid, you have completed your assignment with us early so you will now return to India. Thanks!


That's so British It was trial by urban. He should be given an urban sentence

I need to go pee again. I think I might have a urinary infection. I blame this thread


----------



## Firky (Jan 30, 2013)

Pingu it is was not your use of the phrase or the context of it I was referring to. I still haven't put my kids gloves on this morning, so I will do that and as William says... More later 

FWIW and I can only go off your posts, Pingu, but I would have no problem with Pingu Enterprises Ltd. 

Will explain more later...


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 30, 2013)

Has anyone in the work force gone to their trade union about his behaviour?


----------



## ymu (Jan 30, 2013)

firky said:


> Pingu it is was not your use of the phrase or the context of it I was referring to. I still haven't put my kids gloves on this morning, so I will do that and as William says... More later
> 
> FWIW and I can only go off your posts, Pingu, but I would have no problem with Pingu Enterprises Ltd.
> 
> Will explain more later...


What have you done with the real firky?


----------



## weltweit (Jan 30, 2013)

ymu said:


> And you thought that the fact that a rape happened there recently was good enough evidence to back up your assertion with? Because rape is definitely not a problem in Europe? Doesn't happen. Not 'real' rape anyway.
> 
> There's a recent UN report you could quote on why it's the worst place in the world to be a woman, if you're that desperate to play the ranking game.


 
Don't quite understand why you are getting so worked up ymu.
After the appalling rape there was a widescale protest not just about the rape but also about womens rights in India. It raised the issue that India has a bad record on womens rights much higher in the minds of the world, including among people like me - who rarely read UN reports.

eta: and I am not playing ANY ranking game.


----------



## ymu (Jan 30, 2013)

weltweit said:


> Don't quite understand why you are getting so worked up ymu.
> After the appalling rape there was a widescale protest not just about the rape but also about womens rights in India. It raised the issue that India has a bad record on womens rights much higher in the minds of the world, including among people like me - who rarely read UN reports.
> 
> eta: and I am not playing ANY ranking game.


Look at what you posted and the context you posted it in. It couldn't be much more insulting to women and Indian people if you tried. I know you're a complete sweetheart and you weren't trying to offend anyone, but perhaps try a bit harder not to? This article explains it quite well.


----------



## Firky (Jan 30, 2013)

I think I owe Pingu a clarifcation and explanation to my objection at the phrase 'the Indian' on this thread. My coffee is brewing, I fixed the fuse on the coffee machine with a bit of tin foil so there's every-chance the switch will trip in the middle of a paragraph. Anyway...

As Manter has no doubt figure out it was directed at her. Although I feel a bit of a twat pulling you up like this, Man', I do feel you're totally out of order. You do not identify anyone as "the Indian", let alone refer to them as such. They're not a dog, athough you would think the guy was when you say things like this:



Manter said:


> No, because in that case *the Indian can't afford to eat* while he is here....


 
You see I'd let that slip ordinarily but you use that turn of phrase more than once on this thread. I am not about to go through and find them all again but your repeated use of this phrase is what I took objection to. Also I notice a bit of a pattern to some of your posts. I don't know if you are aware but Urban is a predominately left wing board, people come here, post year after year because it is a reminder that the world is not full of bigoted arseholes and there are people out there who are normal and well 'nice' to coin LP. It's not the first time you've done something that has been questionable.

Within the last six weeks or so you referred to your junior staff as "overheads" and yourself as "the revenue". Your explanation for that was you're in a foul mood but if you read it - people were _really_ fucking pissed off you about that but did not what to pollute a legendary thread with further sewarge. Only nipsla (?) really said what a lot of people were thinking, everyone else kept their claws in. The other example is that of your bored and brain dead house wives, and something about you being a nice middle-class girl.Again I think you got away lightly with that one because it was in the Christmas forum.

Finally you call gentlegreen a misogynist. That's a very powerful world to throw around because someone doesn't like heels and (oddly) thinks women can't park in them or some such thing. Sexist, old fashioned and a bit odd, yes he is - but do you really think he'd have been around here and be as liked as he is if had some pathological hatred for women?

If we're going to throw words like that around with out thought then I call you a racist for referring to the guy Pingu employed as 'The Indian'. Why? Because it smells like someone who's smart enough to know that they can't get away with calling him a 'paki' but not smart enough to realise why their chosen phrase is objectionable.

To be honest I don't think you really 'get' what Urban is, what it's roots, what it stands for. That maybe diluted somewhat because of it's recent popularity, and it's more prominent posters leaving Urban for Facebook because people like you are starting to water it down.

Not going to chase you off the boards are hound you down, but I do think you need to have a think about what Urban is and how you fit into it. New comer of the year or not.



ymu said:


> What have you done with the real firky?


 
Grew bored of acting I hear


----------



## weltweit (Jan 30, 2013)

ymu said:


> Look at what you posted and the context you posted it in. It couldn't be much more insulting to women and Indian people if you tried. I know you're a complete sweetheart and you weren't trying to offend anyone, but perhaps try a bit harder not to? This article explains it quite well.


 
I think you are being over prickely ymu, I did not suggest rape does not happen in the UK or USA for that matter - perhaps if I had emphasised the indian reaction to the rape rather than the rape itself you might have been less offended. But for me, it was the reaction to the rape that made me realise more about the state of women in India.

In the context of this thread, it was implied that Mr Stupid had his negative views on women because of cultural reasons, my intention was just to point out that - they may have a point - !


----------



## geminisnake (Jan 30, 2013)

firky said:


> I'd hate to be referred to as "the Indian"


 
Why? If this thread was taking place in India and was about you you'd probably be called the Englishman, or am I missing something?


----------



## Firky (Jan 30, 2013)

geminisnake said:


> Why? If this thread was taking place in India and was about you you'd probably be called the Englishman, or am I missing something?


 
The Indian guy or such would have been fine, yes. As ymu points out.


----------



## Captain Hurrah (Jan 30, 2013)

'Overheads.'  

Great.


----------



## weltweit (Jan 30, 2013)

firky said:


> I think I owe Pingu a clarifcation and explanation to my objection at the phrase 'the Indian' on this thread.
> ........


 
Have to say, I could easily have used the term "the indian" on this thread without too much thought and am not so clear why it is offensive, I may be being slow but could you explain? When I have been abroad people have referred to me as "the englishman" or "englander" or "Pom" or whatever ..


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 30, 2013)

weltweit said:


> Have to say, I could easily have used the term "the indian" on this thread without too much thought and am not so clear why it is offensive, I may be being slow but could you explain? When I have been abroad people have referred to me as "the englishman" or "englander" or "Pom" or whatever ..


only within your hearing.


----------



## weltweit (Jan 30, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> only within your hearing.


 
or what is it the French say? Roastbeef!


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 30, 2013)

weltweit said:


> or what is it the French say? Roastbeef!


that's rather kinder than what i had in mind


----------



## weltweit (Jan 30, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> that's rather kinder than what i had in mind


As long as the French continue, as they so far have, to stop and help me when I break down or crash in their country they can call me what they like !!


----------



## Firky (Jan 30, 2013)

That exotic looking fellow.


----------



## ymu (Jan 30, 2013)

weltweit said:


> As long as the French continue, as they so far have, to stop and help me when I break down or crash in their country they can call me what they like !!


Unless you're _very_ touchy about 1066, that's not a big deal. It's a bit different when the country you're criticising for being fucked up is fucked up because it's poor, especially when it's poor in part because European colonialism robbed the region blind for a few centuries whilst promoting extreme chauvinism and violence as an ordinary tool of government.

Bit of respect is all that's being asked for. Too much to ask?


----------



## Winot (Jan 30, 2013)

firky said:


> The Indian guy or such would have been fine, yes. As ymu points out.


 
Hmmm - not sure about this. I get the point about using Indian as an adjective rather than a noun (even though it is also a noun) but I suspect this is an instance when the motive to change the language used is predicated on the assumption that the user is a prejudiced dimwit. And yes, I know that's how language works (cf. coloured is offensive) but I'm not sure that we've reached the tipping point where this usage has become de facto offensive.

Also, Manter used "Lebanese guy" and "Nigerian guy" upthread.

BTW, I don't like lots of assumptions being made about me just because I'm a man. Perhaps I should start insisting people refer to me as the "English male human".


----------



## Firky (Jan 30, 2013)

(((OWM))) 

(((WASP)))


----------



## Thimble Queen (Jan 30, 2013)

It made me feel uncomfortable to read it... I  think firky  is right to bring it up... although maybe racist is too strong, I dunno. Id like to think that Manter has shown a lack of judgement... Cant comment on the other threads as I haven't read them. 

Sorry if this isnt put very well on a train!


----------



## Manter (Jan 30, 2013)

Scrap what I said, that personal attack has reduced me to tears, I am horrified at being accused, absolutely without foundation, of racism, (i suspect you don't even believe it, i suspect you are deliberately being hurtful). While i know hormones doesn't leave me in the most calm and robust state, I should be focussing on more important things right now than defending myself against personal attacks.  I liked and appreciated what I found on here-support, friendship, information-, but I can't deal with being called racist, a fucking sick fuck, sewage,and the other stuff that has been thrown at me for having the temerity to be on here and occasionally disagree with others. Some of what you call me up on is fair- I apologised to nipsla because she was quite right to call me on what I said. Most of the rest of it, I disagree with, but I am not robust enough right now to deal with a lunch mob who hate me just for who I am.


----------



## Winot (Jan 30, 2013)

firky said:


> (((OWM)))
> 
> (((WASP)))


 
Don't be a prat (sorry - a "prattish person"), I was making a linguistic point not trying to plead discrimination.


----------



## lizzieloo (Jan 30, 2013)

I'm happy to be a "brain dead housewife", I never have to use a 3 letter acronym


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 30, 2013)

Jon-of-arc said:


> Yeah, sack the bastard. No trial, no investigation, no hearing. Show him this thread and let him know the u75 committee on political correctness has spoken.
> 
> Sorry for the sarcasm, but surely give the guy a chance to explain himself, a firm talking to, and a word of warning that he's on your radar?
> 
> ...


 
I'm not known for my advocacy for employers, but in cases where racism, sexism etc are involved, employers are obliged to act fast, because if they don't, they too can be liable for that individual's behaviour. A swift talking-to now could potentially save them a lot of money down the line.


----------



## friedaweed (Jan 30, 2013)

Respectfully edited


----------



## BoatieBird (Jan 30, 2013)

lizzieloo said:


> I'm happy to be a "brain dead housewife", I never have to use a 3 letter acronym


 

So you are a BDH then?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 30, 2013)

Pingu said:


> oooook...
> 
> erm....
> 
> ...


 
If he's a professional, then his nationality and possible cultural prejudices are immaterial - he should know how to act around clients, and how to follow the chain of command.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jan 30, 2013)

ymu said:


> What have you done with the real firky?


 
the cat has eaten him and is now posting on his login


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jan 30, 2013)

friedaweed said:


> This needs a couple of paragraph breaks in it for the benefit of the reader
> 
> *Legs it


 
People always used paragraphs in the olden days.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 30, 2013)

firky said:


> I'd hate to be referred to as "the Indian"


 
In that case I'll refer to you as Mr Chicken Jalfrezi.


----------



## Manter (Jan 30, 2013)

friedaweed said:


> This needs a couple of paragraph breaks in it for the benefit of the  reader
> 
> *Legs it


Please unquote, I have changed it and I'm off


----------



## lizzieloo (Jan 30, 2013)

BoatieBird said:


> So you are a BDH then?


 
Yes, but you said it


----------



## BoatieBird (Jan 30, 2013)

lizzieloo said:


> Yes, but you said it


----------



## Firky (Jan 30, 2013)

Going to break this up into paragraphs before I read it and reply as it's like a magic eye picture:




> firky, I am slightly taken aback by what is basically a personal attack. I thought this was a place where people came to discuss things, I didn't realise there was a prescribed set of views for entry. I think polluting' and 'sewage' is unhelpful, but you clearly feel very strongly. Some of what you have said is fair-I apologised to nipsla because she was right to call me on it- I learn stuff on here about things that are said as a matter of course in my workplace and in lots of the clients I go into, and about things where people come from different perspectives.
> 
> It has opened my eyes to a number of things, and I value it for that. I think a number of people would disagree with you that there is a right or acceptable way to be left wing- and I don't think it's acceptable to demand someone thinks hard and potentially leaves the boards because their views don't accord with yours. Some of what you are callings me up on, I think, says more about you than me; some have been take out of context, and some really aren't remotely relevant, such as my joking about a cliche of the nice middle class girl (the only time I remember using it was when someone said I should know my rights when I'm dealing with the police, so it was a pretty obvious joke about why I didn't) is really not anything I can see an issue with, and I imagine I was 'given an easy time' because it is no big deal, rather than because everyone had been at the festive sherry.
> 
> ...


----------



## Manter (Jan 30, 2013)

You 





lizzieloo said:


> I'm happy to be a "brain dead housewife", I never have to use a 3 letter acronym


are not and that has been taken completely out of context- I was talking about three specific women. You are one of the nicest people on here.


----------



## Manter (Jan 30, 2013)

firky. Please unquote- you've got what you wanted, there is no need to bully.


----------



## friedaweed (Jan 30, 2013)

Manter said:


> Please unquote, I have changed it and I'm off


Nae bovva done.
Was only pulling yer leg.I'm king of the 58 word sentence me
Hope I haven't upset you


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 30, 2013)

Puddy_Tat said:


> the cat has eaten him and is now posting on his login


 
Nah, it's the bonobo he stole his new liver from, haunting his computer.


----------



## Firky (Jan 30, 2013)

Firstly,

Take it as a personal attack if you wish, I don't care. Is this not a discussion? You could say it is one of the things that you could learn from, or you could take it as a personal attack. Up to you.

At no point but did I say or suggest these forums offer only a prescribed POV, that's a load of rubbish. Sas' is a rampant tory and has been here many a year so try another tact. I don't really want to go into your older posts but... I only chose those ones because they stuck in my head as a bit questionable and off key. Although when you used the middle-class nice girl thing you were using it to distance yourself from the brain dead house wives, to demonstrate that somehow you are better than them, a lot of people thought the same. Go and look, it is in the Christmas forum - you will see I am not alone. You're right it is not a big deal but it is symptomatic of your attitude to a lot of things. Such as your attitude towards the 'overheads', sorry the staff, in your office. There's something to be said about people who look down on their staff as overheads as oppose to team members. Again it is the choice of words.

Also I never said you were racist, it was more of a demonstration that if you throw words around with such powerful connotations then I'll show you an example likewise. A parody if you will. If you don't see why the phrase 'the Indian' is objectionable then perhaps ask MrsDarlingsKiss why she found it uncomfortable or you could choose to ignore that and see it as a personal attack.

And finally, yes you are example of how differently this board is from yesteryear. Boards change, people come and go - as I said Facebook is responsible for a lot of people disapearing but also so is the changing attitudes of the boards by new posters. Calling sectaries 'overheads' is dehumanisation of a worker. It reduces them to a commodity, a nuisance, an unfortunate cog that needs oiled to work.

No. I won't unquote. I got what I wanted and that is for you to check your usage of the phrase "the indian" take that as bullying if you like.

But I am glad that you said you will continue to listen and learn. There is hope.


----------



## ymu (Jan 30, 2013)

Sorry, I cross-posted with you firky. Can't help myself. 



Manter said:


> firky. Please unquote- you've got what you wanted, there is no need to bully.


He's not fucking bullying you, ffs. He clearly wrote that post before he'd seen that you decided to edit and flounce or he wouldn't have been able to quote it. He's also said nothing unreasonable AFAICS. The dehumanising effect of "the blacks", "the gays", "the Jews" has been discussed on plenty of recent threads. It's hardly a controversial point. People are nouns, not adjectives.


----------



## Firky (Jan 30, 2013)

Manter said:


> Scrap what I said, that personal attack has reduced me to tears, I am horrified at being accused, absolutely without foundation, of racism, (i suspect you don't even believe it, i suspect you are deliberately being hurtful). While i know hormones doesn't leave me in the most calm and robust state, I should be focussing on more important things right now than defending myself against personal attacks. I liked and appreciated what I found on here-support, friendship, information-, but I can't deal with being called racist, a fucking sick fuck, sewage,and the other stuff that has been thrown at me for having the temerity to be on here and occasionally disagree with others. Some of what you call me up on is fair- I apologised to nipsla because she was quite right to call me on what I said. Most of the rest of it, I disagree with, but I am not robust enough right now to deal with a lunch mob who hate me just for who I am.


 
Oh shut up. You are not the victim here and no one has accused you of racism. Read the thread.

If I was doing any of the things above I'd have been dragged over hot coals by people on here not getting likes and agreements from them.


----------



## lizzieloo (Jan 30, 2013)

I feel like I should say there has been stuff on here that Manter has said that sometimes has made me go a bit  but when she's pulled up on it she is sorry and is willing to see her mistake and try to go on from there.

I'm not so sure she is what she's being made out to be here.


----------



## Firky (Jan 30, 2013)

Any road, back to Pingu's trials and tribulations with office male chauvinism.


Thought I was being gentle too.


----------



## wiskey (Jan 30, 2013)

You've clearly mellowed Firks!


----------



## Firky (Jan 30, 2013)

wiskey said:


> You've clearly mellowed Firks!


 
Really? 

Cheers


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 30, 2013)

Overheads eh? 

Surprised at you.


----------



## wiskey (Jan 30, 2013)

I'm honestly not sure Manter means to come across as she does, I've always thought she was ok really if a bit removed from the real world . . . although I have to confess I'm still a bit bemused that she called me boring


----------



## baldrick (Jan 30, 2013)

Can't see why 'the Indian' bothers people? I'm stunned actually. 

Haven't seen the other stuff that's supposed to have been said but nice one for challenging it.


----------



## Wilf (Jan 30, 2013)

baldrick said:


> Can't see why 'the Indian' bothers people? I'm stunned actually.
> 
> Haven't seen the other stuff that's supposed to have been said but nice one for challenging it.


 'The Indian' doesn't sound great, though if you wanted to be charitable there's always a difficulty when you have to refer to someone, don't know their name, only know one thing about them.  'Overheads' however....


----------



## cesare (Jan 30, 2013)

Wilf said:


> 'The Indian' doesn't sound great, though if you wanted to be charitable there's always a difficulty when you have to refer to someone, don't know their name, only know one thing about them. 'Overheads' however....


You wouldn't refer to a person as "the disabled" or "the gay" or "the Jew" etc, but yeah it's eye-brow raising terminology rather than racist (and firky explained that he used that as a vehicle to demonstrate how strong descriptors can be devalued when applied inappropriately) and I suppose "the secondee" or similar would have been preferable.

Manter I know you're tired and abroad I think at the moment? Possibly better to mull it over and come back to it later if you want to discuss it. He's not bullying you, you know. Just calling it as he sees it.


----------



## scifisam (Jan 30, 2013)

It's never helpful to list someone's errors from a series of posts (which we can't actually see without searching for them and finding their context) and make it into a big judgment of their character. A big PUBLIC judgment. The only people who'd be able to withstand that sort of personal attack would be arrogant bastards who are probably, even then, would be pretending not to be hurt.

Disagree with the term "the Indian" if you like, but do you really think that means Manter is a secret racist? Based on that alone? Nothing else she's said hints at that at all. She refers to her BF as The Northerner all the time so is probably used to that phrasing, not realising can the Indian can sound a bit dehumanising.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 30, 2013)

Can't be arsed to read this thread, but as a half-Indian and being olive-skinned, I'm more often thought of as Indian (and also "Paki") whilst people conveniently forget that I'm also half British. If I was around when Manter had referred to "the Indian", I would have pointed out to her that I didn't think it was acceptable. However, I *do not* think Manter is racist. She's just had a little fuck-up with using (or rather not using) the correct terminology. She's been pulled on it, hopefully she understands it and will learn from it, and hopefully that will be the end of the matter.

Don't think you should let this put you off posting on here Manter. Stick around 

Just my POV (as half Asian). Don't give a shit whether people agree with it or not


----------



## _angel_ (Jan 30, 2013)

Manter said:


> Most of the rest of it, I disagree with, but I am not robust enough right now to deal with a *lunch* mob who hate me just for who I am.


The worst sort.


----------



## co-op (Jan 30, 2013)

_angel_ said:


> The worst sort.


 
Worse than the elevenses mob?

*shudders*


----------



## Wilf (Jan 30, 2013)

Different though the emphases of 201 and 202 are, both cesare and sam have it right. ^^   Fair enough picking up someone/anyone on language and whether that language does (or doesn't) represent real attitudes. But let's not make it into something it isn't.


----------



## the button (Jan 30, 2013)

_angel_ said:


> The worst sort.


Ladies who lunch mob.


----------



## Firky (Jan 30, 2013)

_angel_ said:


> The worst sort.


 
Sausage rolls on pitch forks outside your house. Throwing pasties at your window.


----------



## lizzieloo (Jan 30, 2013)

the button said:


> Ladies who lunch mob.


 
I could pick you up on that. I won't though.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jan 30, 2013)

Attacked with sandwiches and bags of crisps.


----------



## the button (Jan 30, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> Attacked with sandwiches and bags of crisps.


And from Gregg's rather than Pret. The indignity.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jan 30, 2013)

the button said:


> And from Gregg's rather than Pret. The indignity.


 
A savaloy from Lidl.


----------



## Wilf (Jan 30, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> Attacked with sandwiches and bags of crisps.


 The Meal Deal of Oppression.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jan 30, 2013)

the button said:


> And from Gregg's rather than Pret. The indignity.


 
Someone threw a Gregg's pasty at me. Now you can see through my head.


----------



## Firky (Jan 30, 2013)

scifisam said:


> Disagree with the term "the Indian" if you like, but do you really think that means Manter is a secret racist?


 

Dunno if you're doing a Canucking 

But



> Also I never said you were racist, it was more of a demonstration that if you throw words around with such powerful connotations then I'll show you an example likewise. A parody if you will.


 
and here:




> (and firky explained that he used that as a vehicle to demonstrate how strong descriptors can be devalued when applied inappropriately)


 

I don't think Manter is racist but ignorant in her use of the phrase. It is very rare you do see actual racism on urban. Thank fuck!


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Jan 30, 2013)

Disliking Northerners on the other hand.


----------



## stuff_it (Jan 30, 2013)

Global Stoner said:


> Disliking Northerners on the other hand.


Soon changed your tune about that when you were stuck working up near Sheffield.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jan 30, 2013)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> Someone threw a Gregg's pasty at me. Now you can see through my head.


 
You now look like a doughnut. From Greggs.


----------



## Wilf (Jan 30, 2013)

Global Stoner said:


> Disliking Northerners on the other hand.


 [Reports post to Urban's Head of Human Resources, Mr Firky  ]


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Jan 30, 2013)

stuff_it said:


> Soon changed your tune about that when you were stuck working up near Sheffield.


 
I actually prefer the north...I'm just throwing shit round cos it seems the thread to do so.


----------



## ymu (Jan 30, 2013)

Wilf said:


> Different though the emphases of 201 and 202 are, both cesare and sam have it right. ^^ Fair enough picking up someone/anyone on language and whether that language does (or doesn't) represent real attitudes. But let's not make it into something it isn't.


As far as I can see, it is only Manter making it into something it isn't. I didn't see anyone accuse her of racism, I did see people say it wasn't racist but it was iffy. She's the one who declared it an accusation of racism and promptly flounced.

Is there some shit going down on other threads that I don't know about?


----------



## Firky (Jan 30, 2013)

I want to do a joke about being attacked by a french horn and puff pastry but I'd undo everything I said on this thread.



ymu said:


> Is there some shit going down on other threads that I don't know about?


I never called her a 'sick fuck' either.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 30, 2013)

ymu said:


> Is there some shit going down on other threads that I don't know about?


Of course. There always is.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 30, 2013)

firky said:


> I want to do a joke about being attacked by a french horn and puff pastry but I'd undo everything I said on this thread.
> 
> 
> I never called her a 'sick fuck' either.


you'd loosen the thais


----------



## Firky (Jan 30, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> The thais loosen


 
Oh choux off.


----------



## scifisam (Jan 30, 2013)

Come on, Firks, you posted this:



> If we're going to throw words like that around with out thought then I call you a racist for referring to the guy Pingu employed as 'The Indian'. Why? Because it smells like someone who's smart enough to know that they can't get away with calling him a 'paki' but not smart enough to realise why their chosen phrase is objectionable.


 
You did actually call her a racist - in those exact words. You didn't say "I could call you a racist," you said "I call you a racist." Manter's really not imagining that you called her a racist, is she?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 30, 2013)

firky said:


> Oh choux off.


'ark at you with your fancy french lingo


----------



## ymu (Jan 30, 2013)

scifisam said:


> Come on, Firks, you posted this:
> 
> 
> 
> You did actually call her a racist - in those exact words. You didn't say "I could call you a racist," you said "I call you a racist." Manter's really not imagining that you called her a racist, is she?


You ignored the conditional clause at the start of the sentence. You copy-pasted the text so there is no link for context.

What was the context?


----------



## Firky (Jan 30, 2013)

scifisam said:


> Come on, Firks, you posted this:
> 
> You did actually call her a racist - in those exact words. You didn't say "I could call you a racist," you said "I call you a racist." Manter's really not imagining that you called her a racist, is she?


 
Yes, I did. If we are going to throw words - in that instance misogynistic (aimed at GG because he thinks heels are horrible and women who can't wear them can't drive (?!) ) - around then I'll throw the same sort of rubbish back. I stand by that quote.

Just as GG isn't a misogynist, Man' isn't a racist. That is what is being said in my quote.


----------



## Firky (Jan 30, 2013)

ymu said:


> You ignored the conditional clause at the start of the sentence. You copy-pasted the text so there is no link for context.
> 
> What was the context?


 
See!


----------



## scifisam (Jan 30, 2013)

firky said:


> Yes, I did. If we are going to throw words - in that instance misogynistic (aimed at GG because he thinks heels are horrible and women who can't wear them can't drive (?!) ) - around then I'll throw the same sort of rubbish back. I stand by that quote.
> 
> Just as GG isn't a misogynist, Man' isn't a racist. That is what is being said in my quote.


 
That's one way of interpreting it, but when you say ~"if you're going to call GG a misogynist, then I call you a racist," then, given that Manter did actually call GG a misogynist, you are also calling her a racist. If you'd said the same to me - and said that maybe it was because I secretly wanted to use the word paki - I'd be absolutely horrified. Anyone would. It's disingenuous to claim otherwise. "Oh, I didn't actually say you were you a racist, I just dropped some fucking enormous hints that you might be."

Why didn't you just PM your post to Manter? It wasn't just about the use of the word Indian - it was a (really negative) assessment of her whole character and telling her to think about whether she really fits in here. Why post that in public? To shame her?


----------



## spanglechick (Jan 30, 2013)

Just to add my take, gentlegreen's behaviour towards women in the last couple of days is incredibly upsetting and offensive (not just bad drivers, but women who ever wear heels are apparently poor at their jobs and should not, in his view, be employed) and while not misogynistic, is IMO, closer to that than "the Indian" was to racism. And what we have there in among the outrage, is a hell of a lot of jollying him along.  Sadly calling someone a sexist doesn't seem to be much of an insult on urban - and I can understand the desire to cast around for a stronger word.  Even if it's not the right one.  

But then I had my own foul up of a very similar nature to "the Indian" this week (referring to "The elderly" and "the disabled" as groups with potential mobility needs).  I was very clearly in the wrong, but it was an absence of consideration, rather than gg's prolonged and shameless bigotry.


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Jan 30, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> But then I had my own foul up of a very similar nature to "the Indian" this week (referring to "The elderly" and "the disabled").


 
Dare I ask...what's wrong with that?


----------



## spanglechick (Jan 30, 2013)

Global Stoner said:


> Dare I ask...what's wrong with that?


Reduces people to one facet of themselves.  Ought to be "elderly people" and "disabled people").


----------



## scifisam (Jan 30, 2013)

ymu said:


> You ignored the conditional clause at the start of the sentence. You copy-pasted the text so there is no link for context.
> 
> What was the context?


 
So that needs context, despite being a substantial snippet of a post from two pages ago, but Firky mentions individual words from numerous different (unnamed and unlinked) threads, and you think that's fine.


----------



## Firky (Jan 30, 2013)

scifisam said:


> That's one way of interpreting it, but when you say ~"if you're going to call GG a misogynist, then I call you a racist," then, given that Manter did actually call GG a misogynist, you are also calling her a racist.
> 
> Why didn't you just PM your post to Manter? It wasn't just about the use of the word Indian - it was a (really negative) assessment of her whole character and telling her to think about whether she really fits in here. Why post that in public? To shame her?


 
I don't really care if I upset her feelings if you want to know the truth. I did it in public because she posted her questionable phrase in public. There's plenty of examples of where other posters have been pulled up on their posts, I don't make an exception for someone - well that's not actually true...(as I said I was gentle - considering my reputation for going for the throat) the other examples I included I let slip by the way. But like water on a stone, enough was enough and I pulled her up on it. If I posted something like that I'd fully expect to be pulled up on it publically such is the nature of forums.

If that makes me a cunt so be it.


----------



## weltweit (Jan 30, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> Reduces people to one facet of themselves. Ought to be "elderly people" and "disabled people").


 
Seems like nit picking to an extreme to me... I have bipolar, am I part of the group "the bipolar" or "a person with bipolar" or "a bipolar person".. I am quite comfortable with "the nutter"!


----------



## Frumious B. (Jan 30, 2013)

FFS, hasn't anyone noticed that Manter refers to her other half as 'the Northerner'?  She has a sardonic way of expressing herself and as far as I'm concerned she is welcome to type 'the Indian' or 'the overhead'. It's harmless. But firky, the self-appointed moral arbiter, has got away with developing it into a bunfight and a massive derail. Seems like trolling to me.


----------



## Firky (Jan 30, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> . But firky, the self-appointed moral arbiter.


 
Someone has to do it. No bunfight, pipsqueak, a discussion.


----------



## Sapphireblue (Jan 30, 2013)

Ok, I may regret getting involved but...

Firky, i understand there's context but i do agree that your earlier post read as a personal attack on Manter.
You did call her a racist (no matter what you wrapped it in) and i don't think that bringing other comments such as 'overheads' used in a flippant way/context is particularly fair. Implying that she doesn't belong on these boards is most definitely a personal attack imo, regardless of your softener of “Not going to chase you off the boards”.

and i can totally see that using 'the indian' was intended as simply shorthand for a person about which very little was known other than he's from india and a dick. obviously, in hindsight she should have used 'the dick' but she wasn't the only one using the phrase.

You can say it wasn’t intended as an attack all you want but I can’t read that post without feeling like you wanted to upset her (as opposed to not caring), and you did. Well done you. And as someone who likes Manter, I can’t help being a bit flabbergasted on her behalf.


----------



## Firky (Jan 30, 2013)

I never said that I didn't intend it as an attack, I said I don't care if she perceives it as an attack. There's a difference.

Edit to add:

It's a culmination, a trend of posts made by her and eventually I got pissed off and felt I needed to say something. The posts I made were really quite polite given this is U75.


----------



## ymu (Jan 30, 2013)

scifisam said:


> So that needs context, despite being a substantial snippet of a post from two pages ago, but Firky mentions individual words from numerous different (unnamed and unlinked) threads, and you think that's fine.


Yes. It's a conditional clause. The context matters. It's a long post, and says a lot more than you are implying here.

As it happens, I've just looked up the two other incidents that firky mentioned because I was unaware of significant cross-thread beef until now. Wow. I hate cross-thread beef but I can see exactly how she got up his nose. Has mine now too.


----------



## scifisam (Jan 30, 2013)

firky said:


> I don't really care if I upset her feelings if you want to know the truth. I did it in public because she posted her questionable phrase in public. There's plenty of examples of where other posters have been pulled up on their posts, I don't make an exception for someone - well that's not actually true...(as I said I was gentle - considering my reputation for going for the throat) the other examples I included I let slip by the way. But like water on a stone, enough was enough and I pulled her up on it. If I posted something like that I'd fully expect to be pulled up on it publically such is the nature of forums.
> 
> If that makes me a cunt so be it.


 
If all you'd posted about was her use of that one phrase in this thread, then that'd be true. But you didn't. You brought up loads of stuff from other threads, made big judgments about her personality and said she needs to think about whether she belongs here. I don't really know why you're trying to weasel out of this - you don't care if her feelings were hurt, you think she doesn't belong here, so why pretend that personal attack wasn't a personal attack?


----------



## scifisam (Jan 30, 2013)

ymu said:


> Yes. It's a conditional clause. The context matters. It's a long post, and says a lot more than you are implying here.
> 
> As it happens, I've just looked up the two other incidents that firky mentioned because I was unaware of significant cross-thread beef until now. Wow. I hate cross-thread beef but I can see exactly how she got up his nose. Has mine now too.


 
It's a conditional clause that says "if you say that, then I say this." She did say that, so Firky did say this. Ergo, he did say she was a racist. Perhaps that's not the way he meant to phrase it, but that is what he bloody said. I really think you need to re-read the post. If anyone had directed a comment like that at you, you'd be fucking fuming.


----------



## lizzieloo (Jan 30, 2013)

ymu said:


> As far as I can see, it is only Manter making it into something it isn't. I didn't see anyone accuse her of racism, I did see people say it wasn't racist but it was iffy. She's the one who declared it an accusation of racism and promptly flounced.
> 
> Is there some shit going down on other threads that I don't know about?



Y'know what? Some folk don't have thick skins, I for example internalise the slightest thing. She's had some iffy stuff pointed out to her and to save her having a huge wobble about it she's gone cos it's not worth making herself mega upset by.


----------



## lighterthief (Jan 30, 2013)

Mmmm, lunch mob.


----------



## Firky (Jan 30, 2013)

scifisam said:


> If all you'd posted about was her use of that one phrase in this thread, then that'd be true. But you didn't. You brought up loads of stuff from other threads, made big judgments about her personality and said she needs to think about whether she belongs here. I don't really know why you're trying to weasel out of this - you don't care if her feelings were hurt, you think she doesn't belong here, so why pretend that personal attack wasn't a personal attack?


 
I am not trying to weasel out of it, sam? I fully admit I brought her other posts into context because 'the Indian' thing is one of several examples cited that I took offence to. No, I don't care if her feelings her hurt. Has no one thought about the posters on here who are Asian and how they feel, or how junior staff in an office feel when they're called 'overheads'? Fuck that. I do care about them as sanctimonious as it is I do give a shit about this kind of thing. I will call people out on it regardless if they get upset by it or not.

What about that lass who DJ's? Should posters have not publically voiced their disapproval in the feedback forum about a series of posts over several threads that made her feel like she could not post here any more? I am not going to name her because that is not cricket but I guess you know who I am referring to.

I am the hungry mob.


----------



## Firky (Jan 30, 2013)

scifisam said:


> It's a conditional clause that says "if you say that, then I say this." She did say that, so Firky did say this. Ergo, he did say she was a racist. Perhaps that's not the way he meant to phrase it, but that is what he bloody said. I really think you need to re-read the post. If anyone had directed a comment like that at you, you'd be fucking fuming.


 
I believe ymu has more sense than to use phrases that would her in such a position.

Manter thinks I called her a racist? Oh boo hoo!


----------



## Frumious B. (Jan 30, 2013)

Firky, could you please address this point I made earlier?

"hasn't anyone noticed that Manter refers to her other half as 'the Northerner'? She has a sardonic way of expressing herself" 

Seems to me you're trying to make something out of nothing.


----------



## pengaleng (Jan 30, 2013)

No one likes a sick fuck racist like matner


----------



## Firky (Jan 30, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> Firky, could you please address this point I made earlier?
> 
> "hasn't anyone noticed that Manter refers to her other half as 'the Northerner'? She has a sardonic way of expressing herself"


 
Sure,

One makes people feel uncomfortable (as a couple of Asian posters and white posters on here have pointed out) and the other is a pet name for her OH. I am northern and I certainly don't find it insulting!


----------



## ymu (Jan 30, 2013)

lizzieloo said:


> Y'know what? Some folk don't have thick skins, I for example internalise the slightest thing. She's had some iffy stuff pointed out to her and to save her having a huge wobble about it she's gone cos it's not worth making herself mega upset by.


I'm sure that is precisely what happened. That doesn't make it OK for anyone else to defend her by making out that it's somehow unlikely that anyone might have genuinely been offended by her rank snobbery.

(Not saying you are doing that, I've lost track. )


----------



## purenarcotic (Jan 30, 2013)

I can't say I felt particularly comfortable with 'the Indian', in the same way I wouldn't feel comfortable somebody calling me 'the Jew'.  Because I'm not 'the Jew'.  

I don't think there was any intention to cause offence, but I don't see why it should go unchallenged and somebody shouldn't stop and think about how they phrase things a little.


----------



## snadge (Jan 30, 2013)

I liked Firky far better when his trolling was in your face, now he still trolls but under the banner of being PC gawn mad and he gets away with it everytime and some people are too dense to see it for what it is.


----------



## pengaleng (Jan 30, 2013)

Referring to someone in a derogatory way and knowingly doing so as you would if you'd typed out 'the Indian' or 'the overheads' etc is just the mark of a cunt. If you are going to be a cunt at least do it fucking properly. Cunt. 

Say what you fucking mean.


----------



## Firky (Jan 30, 2013)

tribal_princess said:


> Referring to someone in a derogatory way and knowingly doing so as you would if you'd typed out 'the Indian' or 'the overheads' etc is just the mark of a cunt. If you are going to be a cunt at least do it fucking properly. Cunt.
> 
> Say what you fucking mean.


 
Oh here comes the comes "the cripple"


----------



## pengaleng (Jan 30, 2013)

Why don't you fuck off and die? You parasitic cancerous cunt, get a job.


----------



## Firky (Jan 30, 2013)

Get a job? That's the most insulting thing anyone could say.


----------



## pengaleng (Jan 30, 2013)

I know.


----------



## Frumious B. (Jan 30, 2013)

Mods, please kill this thread. The trolls are killing what's left of my faith in humanity.


----------



## pengaleng (Jan 30, 2013)

You are a bit of a prick init frumoius or whatever the fuck you are supposed to be


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 30, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> Mods, please kill this thread. The trolls are killing what's left of my faith in humanity.


You are phildwyer and I claim my £5


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 30, 2013)

firky said:


> Get a job? That's the most insulting thing anyone could say.


You'll work hard with a gun in your back for a bowl of rice a day


----------



## wiskey (Jan 30, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> Mods, please kill this thread. The trolls are killing what's left of my faith in humanity.


 
why?


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jan 30, 2013)

do lunch mobs turn up with an ordinary knife and fork, instead of a pitchfork?


----------



## cesare (Jan 30, 2013)

Oh God. Now I'm getting a mental vision of Manter in a tumbril, with her blonde tresses unbound and a bewildered expression on her face weeping "but but but let them eat cake" whilst the lunch mob hurl greggs pasties and brandish those plastic forks you half inch out of pret and the tumbril gets wheeled inexorably towards the shadow of the guillotine bearing the banner of UK P&P ...


----------



## Firky (Jan 30, 2013)

A tumbril built by overheads from Turnbridge Wells from plans penned in green ink.The hu-manter-ity of it... the sausage rolls, the baps, the pasties, the steak in the heart.

Stop being a soft shite, Manter and get your arse back on U75 and give me a royal kicking. I say plenty of shit that you can pull me up on.


----------



## Sapphireblue (Jan 30, 2013)

ymu said:


> I'm sure that is precisely what happened. That doesn't make it OK for anyone else to defend her by making out that it's somehow unlikely that anyone might have genuinely been offended by her rank snobbery.
> 
> (Not saying you are doing that, I've lost track. )



I don't think anyone who's defending her is saying that she might not have caused offence, for a start in the relevant thread about overheads she apologised herself. 

The defence is about the way the attack was made. Pull someone up on their comments by all means but there was no need for firky to be such a cunt and imply that no-one wanted someone like Manter on the boards.


----------



## stuff_it (Jan 30, 2013)

WTF happened to the thread? I only stepped out to write a few emails!


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 30, 2013)

stuff_it said:


> WTF happened to the thread? I only stepped out to write a few emails!


 
It was all your fault


----------



## weltweit (Jan 30, 2013)

Sapphireblue said:


> .....
> The defence is about the way the attack was made. Pull someone up on their comments by all means but there was no need for firky to be such a cunt and imply that no-one wanted someone like Manter on the boards.


 
Quite right. Firky you are a twat.


----------



## cesare (Jan 30, 2013)

weltweit said:


> Quite right. Firky you are a twat.


The nutter has spoken.


----------



## Firky (Jan 30, 2013)

weltweit said:


> Quite right. Firky you are a twat.


 
If calling someone up like I did makes me a twat. I am a twat. 

Better a twat than "the Indian".


----------



## Winot (Jan 30, 2013)

firky said:


> To be honest I don't think you really 'get' what Urban is, what it's roots, what it stands for. That maybe diluted somewhat because of it's recent popularity, and it's more prominent posters leaving Urban for Facebook because people like you are starting to water it down.
> 
> Not going to chase you off the boards are hound you down, but I do think you need to have a think about what Urban is and how you fit into it. New comer of the year or not.



What qualifies you to decide what Urban is and what it 'stands for'?


----------



## friedaweed (Jan 30, 2013)

cesare said:


> Oh God. Now I'm getting a mental vision of Manter in a tumbril, with her blonde tresses unbound and a bewildered expression on her face weeping "but but but let them eat cake" whilst the lunch mob hurl greggs pasties and brandish those plastic forks you half inch out of pret and the tumbril gets wheeled inexorably towards the shadow of the guillotine bearing the banner of UK P&P ...


Will the Indian (misogynist) get to throw one at our dear Manter?
Pingu's gonna have some right fucking problems if he's allowed to end up throwing a pastry at a woman on a thread where he was up in the dock for dissing girl power in the work place I wonder what the indian gentleman's views on high heels are


----------



## pengaleng (Jan 30, 2013)

If someone's upset because someone else on the Internet told them no one wanted them on a forum then I'd say man the fuck up you little shitcunt, you are nothing, as if people give that much of a shit about you.


----------



## Firky (Jan 30, 2013)

We're on page 10 now, Winot.


----------



## wiskey (Jan 30, 2013)

tribal_princess said:


> If someone's upset because someone else on the Internet told them no one wanted them on a forum then I'd say man the fuck up you little shitcunt, you are nothing, as if people give that much of a shit about you.


 
no, I think it can be hurtful.

and I think she will be hurt.

I hope firky wasn't intending to hurt her, I hope he was just trying to get his point across.

hopefully she will be back.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Jan 30, 2013)

She is hurt, and I can see why. Still, it's not her that's come out of this looking like a cunt.


----------



## pengaleng (Jan 30, 2013)

I still wouldn't assume that many people actually gave a shit about me, but clearly they do


----------



## cesare (Jan 30, 2013)

This is probably one of the most appropriate occasions to remind people to check their privilege, but we're not allowed to do that now.


----------



## stuff_it (Jan 30, 2013)

Mrs Magpie said:


> She is hurt, and I can see why. Still, it's not her that's come out of this looking like a cunt.


TBH I suspect Firky for one was simply redressing the balance after his recent good behaviour.


----------



## Firky (Jan 30, 2013)

Well it depends what you makes a cunt doesn't it. I'd say no one on this thread was being a cunt, in fact I think you're the first person to say that, Mrs M. Are we not allowed to pull people up on using inappropriate phrases now, have you read the thread or responded to a reported post? 

No Wiskey, I wasn't. As you remarked I have mellowed somewhat. If I wanted to be hurtful I'd have gone about things quite differently. Stale sausage rolls - not fresh ones.


----------



## Firky (Jan 30, 2013)

cesare said:


> This is probably one of the most appropriate occasions to remind people to check their privilege, but we're not allowed to do that now.


 
Without being called a cunt anyway.


----------



## pengaleng (Jan 30, 2013)

If you wanna call someone a cunt then just come out and say it, spineless.be direct, don't make yourself look like a total fucking cunt. No one has time to fuck about here.


----------



## Greebo (Jan 30, 2013)

firky said:


> <snip>Stop being a soft shite, Manter and get your arse back on U75 and give me a royal kicking. I say plenty of shit that you can pull me up on.


Firky, it's easy for you, you're long since used to urban's rough ways and you know that neither grudges nor beefs are held for long. You're secure in your own not-so-little fan club. Less easy for relative newbies.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Jan 30, 2013)

Particularly if you're a newish poster and a poster here makes serious as yet unsubstantiated accusations to the mods about you


----------



## cesare (Jan 30, 2013)

Greebo said:


> Firky, it's easy for you, you're long since used to urban's rough ways and you know that neither grudges nor beefs are held for long. You're secure in your own not-so-little fan club. Less easy for relative newbies.


It's a bit of a privilege reversal going on, and probably hard to take so be gentle.


----------



## Greebo (Jan 30, 2013)

cesare said:


> It's a bit of a privilege reversal going on, and probably hard to take so be gentle.


Believe it or not I'm really struggling right now to stop myself being more abrasive and direct than usual (delightful part of a migraine is the lack of inhibition).


----------



## pengaleng (Jan 30, 2013)

New poster or not I doubt this is their first exposure to the ways of the Internet, look at some YouTube comments ffs.


----------



## Winot (Jan 30, 2013)

firky said:


> We're on page 10 now, Winot.



Did I miss your earlier answer?

Perhaps you could answer the question now.


----------



## ymu (Jan 30, 2013)

cesare said:


> It's a bit of a privilege reversal going on, and probably hard to take so be gentle.


Having caught up with those threads, I salute your kind and gentle soul. Impressive (genuinely, in case it looks like I'm being sarcy).


----------



## Greebo (Jan 30, 2013)

tribal_princess said:


> New poster or not I doubt this is their first exposure to the ways of the Internet, look at some YouTube comments ffs.


Not the same.  This isn't YouTube.  This is supposed to be a fucking community, right?  So if somebody (one of the regulars at that) calls you a cunt and tells you that you're not wanted here  (or that's how it sounds) you might take it as a hard slap in the face.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Jan 30, 2013)

Particularly if another poster has accused you of pretty nasty stuff, which as yet the mods have not been given a shred of evidence of.


----------



## pengaleng (Jan 30, 2013)

Greebo said:


> Not the same.  This isn't YouTube.  This is supposed to be a fucking community, right?  So if somebody (one of the regulars at that) calls you a cunt and tells you that you're not wanted here  (or that's how it sounds) you might take it as a hard slap in the face.


I'd just tell em to fuck off tbh. But nevertheless I understand what you are getting at and I wish anti sensitivity medication existed


----------



## friedaweed (Jan 30, 2013)

tribal_princess said:


> New poster or not I doubt this is their first exposure to the ways of the Internet, look at some YouTube comments ffs.


I always thought urban was a little bit more of a community spirited place. Let's say a bit more wholesome a gaff that placed a 'not welcome' door mat to some of the rather odd individual sick fucks that you find posting their bile on you tube.
Has it changed?


----------



## pengaleng (Jan 30, 2013)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Particularly if another poster has accused you of pretty nasty stuff, which as yet the mods have not been given a shred of evidence of.



Oh spit out what the fuck you are getting at or just fuck off, no one cares, have you got no idle gossip to call someone about or something?


----------



## Greebo (Jan 30, 2013)

friedaweed said:


> I always thought urban was a little bit more of a community spirited place. Let's say a bit more wholesome a gaff that placed a 'not welcome' door mat to some of rather odd individual sick fucks that you find posting their bile on you tube.
> Has it changed?


I would hope not.


----------



## friedaweed (Jan 30, 2013)




----------



## Firky (Jan 30, 2013)

ymu said:


> Having caught up with those threads, I salute your kind and gentle soul. Impressive (genuinely, in case it looks like I'm being sarcy).


 

I read them, carried on - didn't want to get involved and then today when I saw 'The Indian' thing I thought, "you know what? Am going to say something because no one else has."

Thoroughly expected to get stick for it but I really don't see what is wrong in pulling someone up on somIething like that? Should we just accept Manter can use inappropriate phrases and show contempt for her junior staff or should we pull her up on it so (as she says herself) may learn from it / see a different perspective? It's not just confined to Manter though, it can be extended to other areas outside of the boards.

I was called an invalid the other day on these boards because I had cancer. I did not report it. I pulled the poster up on it and the problem was fixed, she accepted that the phrase was archaic and she was in the wrong. Are people suggesting we ignore that kind of thing? I had a moan about with it a couple of posters on this thread *waves* but that is all.

E2A: We came to a mutal agreement to delete our posts and shake hands. Job done.


----------



## friedaweed (Jan 30, 2013)

firky said:


> I read them, carried on - didn't want to get involved and then today when I saw 'The Indian' thing I thought, "you know what? Am going to say something because no one else has."
> 
> Thoroughly expected to get stick for it but I really don't see what is wrong in pulling someone up on something like that? Should we just accept Manter can use inappropriate phrases and show contempt for her junior staff or should we pull her up on it so (as she says herself) may learn from it / see a different perspective? It's not just confined to Manter though, it can be extended to other areas outside of the boards.


I think that's fair enough. 
Can we get the priest in for TP now though before her head starts spinning. I've had 1 kid throw up on me today I couldn't cope with another


----------



## ymu (Jan 30, 2013)

friedaweed said:


> I always thought urban was a little bit more of a community spirited place. Let's say a bit more wholesome a gaff that placed a 'not welcome' door mat to some of rather odd individual sick fucks that you find posting their bile on you tube.
> Has it changed?


I've never seen someone repeatedly come out with such snobbish bile on these boards and get given such an easy time of it. Maybe the kid gloves stayed on too long?


----------



## pengaleng (Jan 30, 2013)

Fuck off, firky, you invalid. Why don't you get a job instead of scrounging ffs?


----------



## pengaleng (Jan 30, 2013)

friedaweed said:


> I think that's fair enough.
> Can we get the priest in for TP now though before her head starts spinning. I've had 1 kid throw up on me today I couldn't cope with another


IT'S OK!!  I AM HAVING A LEMSIP CUS IM SWEATING FROM EVERYWHERE.


----------



## aqua (Jan 30, 2013)

firky, you didn't just pull her up on it (and I agree, the language used was inappropriate) but you also said it was posters like her watering down this place, and that she should think about what urban is (what the fuck is it? I couldn't define it) and how she fits into it.

That isn't just pulling someone up on their phrases is it. People don't have to fit in to a perceived "stereotype" surely? I thought you were once the person who argued against the cliquey nature of this place and now you're doing exactly that.


----------



## pengaleng (Jan 30, 2013)

Bash the cancer victim why don't you???? You people make me sick.


----------



## spanglechick (Jan 30, 2013)

Nahhh, firky in his older, enfant terrible incarnation, used to rant against me and trashy for being all that was wrong with urban.  we were 'wallpaper', iirc... also, i think, 'goldfish'.  

he is entirely consistent in the kinds of things that piss him off - just a good deal more polite and articulate than he used to be, in expressing them.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Jan 30, 2013)

tribal_princess said:


> Oh spit out what the fuck you are getting at or just fuck off, no one cares, have you got no idle gossip to call someone about or something?


Someone made a serious accusation about Manter to the mods but didn't come back with the evidence. I've just now spoken to a different poster, (who was supposed to be the injured party, but was not the accuser) and the accusation is clearly not one of substance. Manter's choice of phrase on this thread was off, but taken with everything else, I think she's been treated badly, although I don't think it's a planned ganging-up and deliberate driving off the boards. I originally wondered whether it was and to do with the accusations made previously.


----------



## Firky (Jan 30, 2013)

I've never had a problem with trashy far from it, I think you're mistaken me for Ninjaboy.

I dunno what accusations you're on about Mrs Magpie but do PM me if they involve me I'd be more than happy to discuss it. Also I explicitly said in my post I am not driving manter off the boards. Who is this gang you speak of, is it people who are agreeing with me?


----------



## Firky (Jan 30, 2013)

Also spangles I did used to troll you, yup, we both know that.


----------



## Firky (Jan 30, 2013)

This thread has gone from pointing out that it's not acceptable to use the phrase 'the Indian' into a classic bunfight. 

Doing a WoW and more later... bacon on the go


----------



## spanglechick (Jan 30, 2013)

firky said:


> I've never had a problem with trashy far from it, I think you're mistaken me for Ninjaboy.





firky said:


> Also spangles I did used to troll you, yup, we both know that.


oh - really?  i was sure the wallpaper thing was you...  gah, i'm getting old and my memory is for shit.  apols.

and you and i really is water under the bridge... i was just pointing out that while you've matured a little, the same sorts of things have always pissed you off.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jan 30, 2013)

I think firky was correct in his sentiment, if not the delivery.


----------



## weltweit (Jan 30, 2013)

firky said:


> This thread has gone from pointing out that it's not acceptable to use the phrase 'the Indian' into a classic bunfight.


 
Actually, the initial thread was about a personnel / discipline workplace matter over an apparently sexist employee. Before it was derailed. I just hope Pingu can follow it !!


----------



## Firky (Jan 30, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> oh - really? i was sure the wallpaper thing was you... gah, i'm getting old and my memory is for shit. apols.
> 
> and you and i really is water under the bridge... i was just pointing out that while you've matured a little, the same sorts of things have always pissed you off.


 
I don't know, to be honest I think out all the things I said the wallpaper thing is probably the least offensive *cringe*, defo' didn't have beefs with trashy though... that I recall?! Fuck knows. 12 years is a long time.

Yeah, certain things do piss me off. You're right, I am just better at saying what not than I used to. People tend to take you much more seriously and acknowledge you have a point and or correct than when you do by calling them "STUCK UP MIDDLE CLASS WAITROSE CUNTS" 

E2A: Deffo never had a problem with trashy. I remember exactly what was said by ninja and it was


----------



## Citizen66 (Jan 30, 2013)

aqua said:


> firky, you didn't just pull her up on it (and I agree, the language used was inappropriate) but you also said it was posters like her watering down this place, and that she should think about what urban is (what the fuck is it? I couldn't define it) and how she fits into it.
> 
> That isn't just pulling someone up on their phrases is it. People don't have to fit in to a perceived "stereotype" surely? I thought you were once the person who argued against the cliquey nature of this place and now you're doing exactly that.


 
I could definitely see from an early stage of her posting that the mere fact that she has a quite high flying job that may be of the hire and fire sort would eventually see her become unstuck on here if she kept reminding everyone of the fact.

Of course, that aside, she is an amiable person. Probably why it took it so long for this to happen. But there was an inevitability about it, imo.


----------



## trashpony (Jan 30, 2013)

firky said:


> I've never had a problem with trashy far from it, I think you're mistaken me for Ninjaboy.
> 
> I dunno what accusations you're on about Mrs Magpie but do PM me if they involve me I'd be more than happy to discuss it. Also I explicitly said in my post I am not driving manter off the boards. Who is this gang you speak of, is it people who are agreeing with me?


Fucking hell - just read this disaster of a thread.

It's true - you've never been a git to me. You have however been a git to Manter - your 'you said this, and then you said that' is a bit stalkery and foul. I don't disagree with what you pulled her up on but I don't think you needed to do it in the way you did. She's not a bad person, she is just coming from a very different place from most urbanites.

And I can't be the only person here that sees the irony that once again, a discussion about misogyny and sexism becomes one about racism. And attacking a female poster. Hurrah!


----------



## Firky (Jan 30, 2013)

aqua said:


> I thought you were once the person who argued against the cliquey nature of this place and now you're doing exactly that.


 
Touché!


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Jan 30, 2013)

firky said:


> PM me if they involve me


no, they don't but I wondered whether the grief she's got over the last couple of months was connected, and now I don't think so.


----------



## friedaweed (Jan 30, 2013)

ymu said:


> I've never seen someone repeatedly come out with such snobbish bile on these boards and get given such an easy time of it. Maybe the kid gloves stayed on too long?


Maybe so I dunno dude I've not really seen much of that from Manter myself. But then I don't read every thread. I always post on urban thread by thread and if I'm honest I can never remember who the fuck anyone is from one thread to the next these days apart from those folk who have been here for donks like. I can cross thread with JC (He's that Canadian chap isn't he?), Stanley (The whacky drunk artist?), VP (Piss taking cunt who has a thing for my mother), Greebo (My personal stalker, bit of a witch), Quimmy (Gorgeous mad jock) Firks (Funny jerdy cunt) orang utan (Grumpy ginger dry witted fucker) and fed (Bluenose twat that has a heart of gold) and so on. Some others I've met at gatherings but can't remember who they are when I see them post online. I just accept everyone based upon the fact that they're a member of the board.

Like any good community, or boozer for that matter, we run the danger of becoming a rather stagnant boring clique if everyone who has a different background or view on things is chased off the premises (Not that I in any way think that was anyone's intentions on this thread, well until all the cunty calling started).

I'm the resident pacifist in my local British Legion. They call me Mandela behind my back because I've chirped up about some of the shit I've heard around the snooker table about 'Darkies' but they'd never ask me to leave. With their membership issues consisting of more people dieing than joining they're not unlike urban. They appreciate us filling the snooker light meter and assisting in turning the barrels around before the beer goes stale. Apparently me and my snooker partner have brightened up the place. We don't share the same views as a lot of the old boys who frequent the bar but they like the fact that we are there for them to take the piss out of and they get to teach us a few lessons on the snooker table every now and then. It's £6 an hour cheaper than the snooker hall and £1.90 a pint for stout. I can put up with them seem as they seem ok putting up with me 

Flouncings a bit shit as well mind


----------



## weltweit (Jan 30, 2013)

I think it is fine to pick people up about a miss chosen word or phrase and I have been picked up on that a number of times myself.

But I think Firky you went too far. It is obvious that you don't like Manter but all that crap about what urban is and if you fit into it or not ... excess to requirements.

So, another new poster persuaded away. Not very good at welcoming new people urban, is it!


----------



## ymu (Jan 30, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> I could definitely see from an early stage of her posting that the mere fact that she has a quite high flying job that may be of the hire and fire sort would eventually see her become unstuck on here if she kept reminding everyone of the fact.
> 
> Of course, that aside, she is an amiable person. Probably why it took it so long for this to happen. But there an inevitability about it, imo.


 
Nail, head.


----------



## Winot (Jan 30, 2013)

trashpony said:


> And I can't be the only person here that sees the irony that once again, a discussion about misogyny and sexism becomes one about racism. And attacking a female poster. Hurrah!



And holding out that poster as being totemic of 'everything that has gone wrong with Urban' (whilst holding yourself out, presumably, as everything that is good about it). 

Manter is Firky's scapegoat, and she's 'scaped.


----------



## Firky (Jan 30, 2013)

Mrs Magpie said:


> no, they don't but I wondered whether the grief she's got over the last couple of months was connected, and now I don't think so.


 
Nah, Manter has never really featured in my radar before until I read those posts I mentioned - and they're all within 8 weeks of each other. Which is probably why they stuck.

If I have this right: the majority of people on here on this thread agree with me, save for a few who admit they'd use the term themselves, but they do not agree how I pulled her up on it. Fair point but if I did not pull her up on the things listed in one post and instead chose to pull her up on them as they occurred would that not be worse? I'd look like a dog with a bone then, where as this way I can say:

1) Calling junior staff 'overheads' is grossly offensive to workers.

2) The use of phrase "the Indian is grossly offensive.

3) Calling people brain dead house wives because they don't talk about the same subjects as you is grossly offensive.i


Also if you look back to page 6 I think I said, "I am not chasing you off the boards or hounding you but I think you need to think about your place on them", which is really a clumsy way of saying, "if you want an easy life on these boards, I'd check what you say at times."

Maybe I should have read my post before I hit the submit button - still stand by everything I said. If maybe not the way I said it.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Jan 30, 2013)

friedaweed said:


> Flouncings a bit shit as well mind


There's flouncing and being so upset you leave. I've never met Manter, but she seems to basically have a good heart, has made some really good contributions to these boards and I will miss her contributions.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jan 30, 2013)

trashpony said:


> And I can't be the only person here that sees the irony that once again, a discussion about misogyny and sexism becomes one about racism. And attacking a female poster. Hurrah!


 
Actually, good point. Although I would add that had Manter been male I imaging they'd have been pulled up a lot sooner and had less defenders.


----------



## aqua (Jan 30, 2013)

firky said:


> Also if you look back to page 6 I think I said, "I am not chasing you off the boards or hounding you *but* I think you need to think about your place on them", which is really a clumsy way of saying, "if you want an easy life on these boards, I'd check what you say at times."
> 
> Maybe I should have read my post before I hit the submit button.


I love a good but in a sentence "I'm not saying you're a wanker firky, BUT, you're a wanker"  yes you should have read it before submitting. We don't want clones of the people already here, and why should people just slide into wanting an easy life? Why not learn stuff, talk stuff through with people who don't see the world through the same eyes. Like friedaweed said, it'd be a pretty shit place, a stagnant place, if we did.


----------



## ruffneck23 (Jan 30, 2013)

tribal_princess said:


> Fuck off, firky, you invalid. Why don't you get a job instead of scrounging ffs?


 

not read next bit of thread yet but good to see you back


----------



## Captain Hurrah (Jan 30, 2013)

Overheads.  I'm sorry, but that can just fuck right off.


----------



## aqua (Jan 30, 2013)

Captain Hurrah said:


> Overheads. I'm sorry, but that can just fuck right off.


yes we've done that bit and I don't think anyone disagrees with you.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 30, 2013)

extra dry said:


> I have the total displeasure of working with an English guy who judges a womans performance on 'how good they look' the guy is total twit.


 
Most people get over that pretty quick when the work of that other person has an impact on the  observer's output/performance etc.


----------



## weltweit (Jan 30, 2013)

firky said:


> 2) The use of phrase "the Indian is grossly offensive.


 
Some people may be offended, others may not, I think Minnie_the_Minx said on balance she was offended but I didn't think she was grossly offended. I stand to be corrected Minnie. Certainly it is a phrase that I could easily have used without thinking I was likely to offend anyone, obviously now I would not use it.


----------



## ymu (Jan 30, 2013)

friedaweed said:


> Maybe so I dunno dude I've not really seen much of that from Manter myself.


I'd seen what Citizen saw, but I expected her to have corrected that kind of bullshit by now. But now I've looked up what firky was talking about and she hasn't. I think he's wrong to say no one picked her up on it at the time, several people did - but in incredibly gentle ways which don't seem to have got the message across. Probably because she is very popular around here (for good reasons, no doubt).

I hate talking about her behind her back, and I'm not going to post the links. It's just pissing me off that firky is getting attacked for getting upset about it.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Jan 30, 2013)

...and anyway, I'm the one who wears the 'I ruined Urban75 forever' crown by suburbanising the forums and being slightly left of centre  Although some of my best friends are far left of the Beast of Bolsover.


----------



## Captain Hurrah (Jan 30, 2013)

aqua said:


> yes we've done that bit and I don't think anyone disagrees with you.


 
Not much at the time though.  _Let's pretend we didn't see that._


----------



## trashpony (Jan 30, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> Actually, good point. Although I would add that had Manter been male I imaging they'd have been pulled up a lot sooner and had less defenders.


Oh I dunno - it was stereotypes a-go-go here last night. Nigerians being lazy was a prize one I remember and I don't think anyone had anything to say about that


----------



## Firky (Jan 30, 2013)

Oh FFS, JC2. Page 4? We're on 12! 

I am going to scrape me tin out.


----------



## purenarcotic (Jan 30, 2013)

trashpony said:


> Oh I dunno - it was stereotypes a-go-go here last night. Nigerians being lazy was a prize one I remember and I don't think anyone had anything to say about that


 
Somebody said 'paki' lads a couple of weeks ago and two people tried to defend why they'd said it. 

I was a bit speechless tbh.


----------



## ymu (Jan 30, 2013)

trashpony said:


> Oh I dunno - it was stereotypes a-go-go here last night. Nigerians being lazy was a prize one I remember and I don't think anyone had anything to say about that


That was another Manter one, IIRC.


----------



## lizzieloo (Jan 30, 2013)

ymu said:


> I'm sure that is precisely what happened. That doesn't make it OK for anyone else to defend her by making out that it's somehow unlikely that anyone might have genuinely been offended by her rank snobbery.
> 
> (Not saying you are doing that, I've lost track. )


 
Your rank exaggeration pisses me off much more, always has


----------



## spanglechick (Jan 30, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> Actually, good point. Although I would add that had Manter been male I imaging they'd have been pulled up a lot sooner and had less defenders.


i doubt it, actually. if you look at the big contentious posters who have been barracked non-stop, it's been upchuck, foxy and cheesy.  3 women.  The difference here is that manter is being defended by both male and female posters, while quite notably, the only defenders of the first three were a small number of men (apart from upchuck, who had no fans, afaicr).

there's something to be said about how urban treats unpopular women... but i'm not sure this is a good example of that.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 30, 2013)

Manter said:


> often is though- most 'wtf?' moment of my time in HR



A master's degree in Modern Warfare is a useful thing indeed.


----------



## twentythreedom (Jan 30, 2013)




----------



## Winot (Jan 30, 2013)

firky said:


> Maybe I should have read my post before I hit the submit button - still stand by everything I said. If maybe not the way I said it.



There are some people who aren't going to take note of criticism and try to improve, in which case you may as well have fun and go for the jugular. I don't think Manter fell in this camp. There was a way of making your point without engaging in bloodsports.

Also you could have cut the 'more Urban than thou' crap. 

Grudging respect for the self-criticism though.


----------



## ymu (Jan 30, 2013)

ymu said:


> That was another Manter one, IIRC.


 
Yup.



Manter said:


> often is though- most 'wtf?' moment of my time in HR was a regularly absent Nigerian guy, called into a disciplinary who said it was in the Nigerian culture to be absent/late and we were discriminating on the basis of national characteristics. Only three disciplinaries I had to walk out of to laugh- that was one


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Jan 30, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> foxy


a bloke who trolls many boards.


----------



## Celt (Jan 30, 2013)

Pingu said:


> just had one of the people who works for me ask for a call this evening.
> 
> long and short of it is one of the other guys lets call him "stupid", who is new to the company has some "attitude issues" wrt women. Apparently he seems to think they (women that is) are subservient to him (as a male) and this has caused all sorts of jolly goings on today...
> 
> so 20:00 hours this evening should make my life more interesting for a bit...


 
so Pingu - how did you handle stupid.

I've searched through pages of other stuff on this thread hoping to find the resolution


----------



## Firky (Jan 30, 2013)

The next time I pull someone up on their offensiveness I promise to be more polite.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 30, 2013)

weltweit said:


> Some people may be offended, others may not, I think Minnie_the_Minx said on balance she was offended but I didn't think she was grossly offended. I stand to be corrected Minnie. Certainly it is a phrase that I could easily have used without thinking I was likely to offend anyone, obviously now I would not use it.


 
Not hugely offended at all welt (disappointed might be a better word), but would have had a quiet word in her shell-like that maybe she could find another way to describe him rather than "the Indian". Having spent a good few years being chased by racists calling me a Paki, I've got a bit of a thick skin and as stated earlier, I'd have assumed it was a bit of a slip-up, had a word, and left it that. I wouldn't have been preparing the gallows for her and I certainly don't think Manter's racist. I've fucked up on here, just by not thinking and coming out with insensitive comments, have been bollocked, have felt embarrassed, and learned, and now try to choose my words more carefully. Still fuck up though 

eta: In fact, if I were in or around Manter's company when she said it, I think I'd have raised an eyebrow (but probably two as I can't raise just one), rolled my eyeballs and thought "oh dear", then had a word with her


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 30, 2013)

Pingu said:


> today he made a comment to another one of our people that a woman should not be in charge of men.. its not natural.


 
He must have been shitting himself the whole time Indira Gandhi was prime minister of India.


----------



## ruffneck23 (Jan 30, 2013)

im currently an overhead, ive been a minion and worse, but i take my wage and buy drink and drugs and occasionaly rock in the corner.

BUT i dint give a fuck what people think of me, its none of my business, i go home with warm feelings of contempt towards them


----------



## friedaweed (Jan 30, 2013)

Mrs Magpie said:


> There's flouncing and being so upset you leave. I've never met Manter, but she seems to basically have a good heart, has made some really good contributions to these boards and I will miss her contributions.


Aye I agree. There's also having a sulk and a fag outside and gathering your thoughts before dusting yourself off and walking back into the pub an settling back in  So what if one of the regulars tore you a new arse, bide your time and you can have them over the same barrel one day which in fairness to firks is exactly what he said when he rightly pointed out that he talks all sorts of shite 

In terms of urban bunfights this is a pretty piss poor one and pingu's gonna be pretty upset that such a trivial one has derailed his important HR issue


----------



## Frumious B. (Jan 30, 2013)

This usage of "the Indian"...I've just reread all Manter's posts in this thread....many hundreds of words, she said "the Indian" once. Post #64. Is that the egregious crime we are talking about? Post 64?


----------



## Firky (Jan 30, 2013)

Is anyone else watching the incredibly phallic TV on the Food Inspectors?


----------



## spanglechick (Jan 30, 2013)

Mrs Magpie said:


> a bloke who trolls many boards.


but the attacks and defenses of her were, i think largely coming from the understanding that she was a woman.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jan 30, 2013)

trashpony said:


> Oh I dunno - it was stereotypes a-go-go here last night. Nigerians being lazy was a prize one I remember and I don't think anyone had anything to say about that


 
I'm writing music mostly on evenings nowadays. I didn't see the batphone ring!


----------



## purenarcotic (Jan 30, 2013)

firky said:


> Is anyone else watching the incredibly phallic TV on the Food Inspectors?


 
I had no idea it was penicillin that grew on the skins.


----------



## Winot (Jan 30, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> This usage of "the Indian"...I've just reread all Manter's posts in this thread....many hundreds of words, she said "the Indian" once. Post #64. Is that the egregious crime we are talking about? Post 64?



Although it was *claimed* she said it more than once.


----------



## ruffneck23 (Jan 30, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> This usage of "the Indian"...I've just reread all Manter's posts in this thread....many hundreds of words, she said "the Indian" once. Post #64. Is that the egregious crime we are talking about? Post 64?


 2 words can destroy folk


----------



## Citizen66 (Jan 30, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> i doubt it, actually. if you look at the big contentious posters who have been barracked non-stop, it's been upchuck, foxy and cheesy. 3 women. The difference here is that manter is being defended by both male and female posters, while quite notably, the only defenders of the first three were a small number of men (apart from upchuck, who had no fans, afaicr).
> 
> there's something to be said about how urban treats unpopular women... but i'm not sure this is a good example of that.


 
Yeah, I had a think before I reached this post and convinced myself of the opposite by the time I read it.

detective Boy is the best example of someone who through profession could wind people up on here but had plenty of defenders. So happy to be corrected on that point.


----------



## friedaweed (Jan 30, 2013)

ymu said:


> I'd seen what Citizen saw, but I expected her to have corrected that kind of bullshit by now. But now I've looked up what firky was talking about and she hasn't. I think he's wrong to say no one picked her up on it at the time, several people did - but in incredibly gentle ways which don't seem to have got the message across. Probably because she is very popular around here (for good reasons, no doubt).
> 
> *I hate talking about her behind her back, and I'm not going to post the links. It's just pissing me off that firky is getting attacked for getting upset about it.*


Same here and fair doos. Firks is a prize cunt but he's not a nasty one. Well not since he was possessed by that kitty loving bonobo he got his new liver off


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 30, 2013)

Manter said:


> interestingly, less than you'd think. I worked in Dubai for a bit and have attended a workshop in Saudi, and they never noticed what I wore, ignored my comments etc- they just seemed to regard me as a third gender, or a different species or something. Obv I didn't wear a super mini, but just ordinary work clothes


 
Ballsy: Even president's wives make concessions for local custom in places like Saudi, Indonesia.


----------



## purenarcotic (Jan 30, 2013)

A whole thread was created because an MP said 'the Jews'.  Because saying stuff like that isn't appropriate, whether you say it once or 100 times.

It was right to be pulled up, it was done in the wrong way, I think firks said it has now been sorted by PM anyhow.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Jan 30, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> but the attacks and defenses of her were, i think largely coming from the understanding that she was a woman.


There were a few, early on, from those who knew it was a bloke from other boards. I can't remember who said it but a male poster thought it was interesting that women had Foxy sussed as a fake (although not necessarily a bloke) first.


----------



## Firky (Jan 30, 2013)

Winot said:


> There are some people who aren't going to take note of criticism and try to improve, in which case you may as well have fun and go for the jugular. I don't think Manter fell in this camp. There was a way of making your point without engaging in bloodsports.


 
I don't really know anything about her, I've only been back maybe six months (and causing a shit storm), but I appreciate that there is a way of dealing with some people and not others. I honestly thought I was being quite restrained and even started my post with something like, "I feel like a twat for saying this to you but.." (don't recall the actual words). Maybe I need to blunt the blade some more.

I wouldn't know this of course unless you pointed it out so should it happen again, I'll go for theuir ankles.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 30, 2013)

Manter said:


> See my later post- it is just as unfair if an overseas assignment gets him a salary increase- you can't take that off him and when he goes home he earns more than the rest of the team combined (though not entirely true for india as their wages in IT aren't *that* low any more). So most international firms use a series of allowances to equalise income but keep fixed costs stable and stop international assignments distorting their international structures.


 
Huh. When I look at the international ads in my field, the pay overseas is as good as, or better than it is here.


----------



## Belushi (Jan 30, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> i doubt it, actually. if you look at the big contentious posters who have been barracked non-stop, it's been upchuck, foxy and cheesy. 3 women.


 
I'm not sure thats right tbh, Jazz for example springs to mind as a male poster just as contentious who takes a a lot of flak.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 30, 2013)

Mrs Magpie said:


> There were a few, early on, from those who knew it was a bloke from other boards. I can't remember who said it but a male poster thought it was interesting that women had Foxy sussed as a fake (although not necessarily a bloke) first.


 
Foxy's most virulent defenders were women as well. And as I recall, a fair number of men sussed her out pretty early on - only to be set upon by those same defenders.


----------



## weltweit (Jan 30, 2013)

JC3, you are a bit behind the thread.... ... >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more happens later


----------



## Firky (Jan 30, 2013)

friedaweed said:


> In terms of urban bunfights this is a pretty piss poor one and pingu's gonna be pretty upset that such a trivial one has derailed his important HR issue


 
That's what makes me laugh, poor bloke checking his phone thinking "Jesus fucking christ"


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 30, 2013)

I really don't want to read ten more pages of this thread: can someone help me:

Who said 'the Indian'?

Who has been sussed?

The suspense is killing me.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 30, 2013)

weltweit said:


> JC3, you are a bit behind the thread.... ... >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more happens later


 
I have an appointment in less than an hour, and I'm not that fast a reader.


----------



## spanglechick (Jan 30, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Foxy's most virulent defenders were women as well. And as I recall, a fair number of men sussed her out pretty early on - only to be set upon by those same defenders.


really?  i stand corrected - thinking about it, i think things did change once she said she was pregnant and appeared more real and vulnerable.  before that, i don't think (s)he had much sister-support.  she was certainly significantly less-well-defended than manter.

i don't have any kind of point, btw - i was just pinting out that i thought C66 was wrong.


----------



## Frumious B. (Jan 30, 2013)

firky said:


> If I have this right: the majority of people on here on this thread agree with me, save for a few who admit they'd use the term themselves, but they do not agree how I pulled her up on it.


 
No, you don't have it right. Dream on.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Jan 30, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Foxy's most virulent defenders were women as well. And as I recall, a fair number of men sussed her out pretty early on - only to be set upon by those same defenders.


To be honest, I avoided Foxy threads as it would be time I'd never get back.


----------



## ymu (Jan 30, 2013)

Celt said:


> so Pingu - how did you handle stupid.
> 
> I've searched through pages of other stuff on this thread hoping to find the resolution


You can search threads. Just put Pingu in the 'posted by' box and check 'search this thread only'.



Pingu said:


> spoke with both the guy and the clients team leader this morning and.. the guy is a dick
> 
> the team lead is pretty pissed off, to put it mildly, and wont allow him back on site so that kinda takes one decision out of my hands.
> 
> ...


----------



## Firky (Jan 30, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> This usage of "the Indian"...I've just reread all Manter's posts in this thread....many hundreds of words, she said "the Indian" once. Post #64. Is that the egregious crime we are talking about? Post 64?


 
Edit function. She edited her posts apart from the one I quoted, (which she asked me to edit). It was said a couple of times. She also said she didn't see the problem with using the phrase in her original response to me. Keep up.


----------



## weltweit (Jan 30, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> I have an appointment in less than an hour, and I'm not that fast a reader.


 
Manter said "the indian", Firky had a go at her, the rest is history


----------



## Firky (Jan 30, 2013)

purenarcotic said:


> I had no idea it was penicillin that grew on the skins.


 
Matt Baker handling a giant lubed sausage


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 30, 2013)

I'm just putting this out there: does someone suggest that Manter is 'full of baloney' as we used to say when I was a kid? Or is it someone else?

Just askin' the question.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 30, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> really? i stand corrected - thinking about it, i think things did change once she said she was pregnant and appeared more real and vulnerable. before that, i don't think (s)he had much sister-support. she was certainly significantly less-well-defended than manter.
> 
> i don't have any kind of point, btw - i was just pinting out that i thought C66 was wrong.


 
Not so sure about that.  I think plenty of women saw straight through her/him, although yeah, I think when she got pregnant, that changed a bit, but then with her continuous flounces, I think people starting rethinking

I may be wrong, it was all so long ago


----------



## Frumious B. (Jan 30, 2013)

firky said:


> Edit function. She edited her posts apart from the one I quoted, (which she asked me to edit). It was said a couple of times. She also said she didn't see the problem with using the phrase in her original response to me. Keep up.


So she used it twice. I don't have a problem with that, partly because she refers to her partner as "the Northerner" and partly because of the context she used it in. In my books you're a total cunt.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jan 30, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> i doubt it, actually. if you look at the big contentious posters who have been barracked non-stop, it's been upchuck, foxy and cheesy. 3 women.


 
I was a defender of cheesy and foxy and got masses of shit for it. Off women! Was doing it for sexual purposes etc which is surely a rank stereotype in itself. 

I spoke to upchuck via pm once. She saw it as 'a sport' (her words). No knight in shining armour required for that one.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 30, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> really? i stand corrected - thinking about it, i think things did change once she said she was pregnant and appeared more real and vulnerable. before that, i don't think (s)he had much sister-support. she was certainly significantly less-well-defended than manter.
> 
> i don't have any kind of point, btw - i was just pinting out that i thought C66 was wrong.


 
Foxy presented as a half black woman. She had ferocious supporters right from the get-go.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 30, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> I was a defender of cheesy and foxy and got masses of shit for it. Off women! Was doing it for sexual favours.


 
Shame on you!


----------



## trashpony (Jan 30, 2013)

ymu said:


> That was another Manter one, IIRC.


Oh, so it was


----------



## Firky (Jan 30, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> No, you don't have it right. Dream on.


 
Well yeah, not to x-thread beefs but it was only the other day you were saying women couldn't accept that they may have to stab people if they were in a combat role. So it does not surprise  me that you'd call someone "the Indian" without seeing what was wrong.

And we're off again...


----------



## trashpony (Jan 30, 2013)

firky said:


> Well yeah, not to x-thread beefs but it was only the other day you were saying women couldn't accept that they may have to stab people if they were in a combat role.
> 
> And we're off again...


Do we need more popcorn?


----------



## lizzieloo (Jan 30, 2013)




----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 30, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Not so sure about that. I think plenty of women saw straight through her/him, although yeah, I think when she got pregnant, that changed a bit, but then with her continuous flounces, I think people starting rethinking
> 
> I may be wrong, it was all so long ago


 
As I recall, men started calling bullshit when she started putting up the babe photos. But then, the defence brigade would come at you with such vehemence, that you felt shamefaced for having such improper thoughts [ie that Foxy .... gasp... wasn't real]. But... the thoughts just wouldn't go away.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Jan 30, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Not so sure about that. I think plenty of women saw straight through her/him, although yeah, I think when she got pregnant, that changed a bit, but then with her continuous flounces, I think people starting rethinking
> 
> I may be wrong, it was all so long ago


Well, iirc, some who hadn't thought she was fake sussed the fakery with stuff Foxy claimed the maternity unit staff had said...load of meaningless totally fallacious non-medical stuff that only someone making it up as they went along could have said, although that might have been 'the miscarriage' fantasy.


----------



## Firky (Jan 30, 2013)

trashpony said:


> Oh, so it was


 
I was kind of hoping it wasn't you know.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 30, 2013)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Well, iirc, some who hadn't thought she was fake sussed the fakery with stuff Foxy claimed the maternity unit staff had said...load of meaningless totally fallacious non-medical stuff that only someone making it up as they went along could have said, although that might have been 'the miscarriage' fantasy.


 
I tended to stay away from the baby thread (apart from upsetting her with my pram talk)


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 30, 2013)

Didn't Manter get voted 'best new poster of the year'?


----------



## Citizen66 (Jan 30, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> So she used it twice. I don't have a problem with that, partly because she refers to her partner as "the Northerner" and partly because of the context she used it in. In my books you're a total cunt.


 
_If it's alright for them to call us Brits, why isn't it alright to call them Pakis?_

Have a little think.


----------



## spanglechick (Jan 30, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I tended to stay away from the baby thread (apart from upsetting her with my pram talk)


ahh - that pram thread was a corker!


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 30, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> _If it's alright for them to call us Brits, why isn't it alright to call them Pakis?_
> 
> Have a little think.


 
Because when someone calls you Brit, it doesn't make you feel rage inside.


----------



## Firky (Jan 30, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> So she used it twice. I don't have a problem with that, partly because she refers to her partner as "the Northerner" and partly because of the context she used it in. In my books you're a total cunt.


 
Good. Genuinely pleased because I'd hate for some bigot like you have anything but contempt for a sanctimonious total cunt like me.


----------



## trashpony (Jan 30, 2013)

firky said:


> I was kind of hoping it wasn't you know.


Me too


spanglechick said:


> ahh - that pram thread was a corker!


What pram thread? How did I miss the pram thread?!


----------



## Frumious B. (Jan 30, 2013)

firky said:


> Good. Genuinely pleased because I'd hate for some bigot like you have anything but contempt for a sanctimonious total cunt like me.


Fuck you, troll.


----------



## friedaweed (Jan 30, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> I'm just putting this out there: does someone suggest that Manter is 'full of baloney' as we used to say when I was a kid? Or is it someone else?
> 
> Just askin' the question.


Yes Manter is foxy red and firky 

Do keep up old chum


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 30, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> _If it's alright for them to call us Brits, why isn't it alright to call them Pakis?_
> 
> Have a little think.


 
Or as an Irishman once said to me, "If it's alright for you to call me a Paddy, then why can't I call you a Paki, 'cos that's what you are?"

This is despite him knowing that I was born in London and am half Indian (to which he would reply that Paki and Indian is the "same thing")


----------



## Firky (Jan 30, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> Fuck you, troll.


 
Thanks for the affirmation. Appreciate it


----------



## pengaleng (Jan 30, 2013)

Awwww firky done got a new fan club member


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 30, 2013)

tribal_princess said:


> Why don't you fuck off and die? You parasitic cancerous cunt, get a job.


 
I thought firky had a successful operation for the cancer.

That just leaves two relevant adjectives.


----------



## spanglechick (Jan 30, 2013)

trashpony said:


> Me too
> 
> What pram thread? How did I miss the pram thread?!


it wasn't as good as the £1000-pram-thread a couple of years earlier, but she did spend that much on a pram, and said that it was the only pram she thought the car seat bit was safe enough, so she had to spend that much.


----------



## friedaweed (Jan 30, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Didn't Manter get voted 'best new poster of the year'?


Yeah and you constantly stuck up for PBman. What's your point caller?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 30, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> it wasn't as good as the £1000-pram-thread a couple of years earlier, but she did spend that much on a pram, and said that it was the only pram she thought the car seat bit was safe enough, so she had to spend that much.


 
and then she got the big car


----------



## Firky (Jan 30, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Or as an Irishman once said to me, "If it's alright for you to call me a Paddy, then why can't I call you a Paki, 'cos that's what you are?"
> 
> This is despite him knowing that I was born in London and am half Indian (to which he would reply that Paki and Indian is the "same thing")


 
Were his initials F.B ?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 30, 2013)

friedaweed said:


> Yeah and you constantly stuck up for PBman. What's your point caller?


 
I think pbman was the genuine goods, ie that he actually was a fundamentalist right winger from Oklahoma. I didn't think he was someone pretending to be someone else.


----------



## Libertad (Jan 30, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> and then she got the big car


 
and the poltergeist.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jan 30, 2013)

firky's not wrong about how the boards have changed tbh. Regardless of who said it or what else they might have said I think the fact that someone who's been here for over a year thought this was a place where 'overheads' would fit, even as a joke, does say something IMO.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 30, 2013)

Mrs Magpie said:


> To be honest, I avoided Foxy threads as it would be time I'd never get back.


 
I read them.

I also slow down and take a look at car accidents.


----------



## Firky (Jan 30, 2013)

Prams? Cars? WTF you lot on about?

Sorry, like but I've had a slight change of heart, following the Nigerian's being lazy comments and revelations. I hope the door hit her arse on the way out and knocked some of that shit in her brains out.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 30, 2013)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Well, iirc, some who hadn't thought she was fake sussed the fakery with stuff Foxy claimed the maternity unit staff had said...load of meaningless totally fallacious non-medical stuff that only someone making it up as they went along could have said, although that might have been 'the miscarriage' fantasy.


 
I think the thing that got a lot of women on board for Foxy, was the 'abusive boyfriend'.


----------



## aqua (Jan 30, 2013)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> firky's not wrong about how the boards have changed tbh. Regardless of who said it or what else they might have said I think the fact that someone who's been here for over a year thought this was a place where 'overheads' would fit, even as a joke, does say something IMO.


or just didn't think maybe? yes the boards have changed, of course they have. I've been here 10 years already and fucking hell, it would be weird (and very sad) if the posters' lives hadn't moved/changed in that time too.


----------



## friedaweed (Jan 30, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> I skip read them.
> 
> I also slowed down to look at her pictures.


FIFY


----------



## Firky (Jan 30, 2013)

aqua said:


> or just didn't think maybe? yes the boards have changed, of course they have. I've been here 10 years already and fucking hell, it would be weird (and very sad) if the posters' lives hadn't moved/changed in that time too.


 
Change for the better not worse.

This place is a LOT less cut throat than it was. That is good change.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 30, 2013)

firky said:


> Were his initials F.B ?


 
No, who's FB?


----------



## friedaweed (Jan 30, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> I think pbman was the genuine goods, ie that he actually was a fundamentalist right winger from Oklahoma. I didn't think he was someone pretending to be someone else.


and so's manter isn't she comrade?


----------



## aqua (Jan 30, 2013)

firky said:


> Prams? Cars? WTF you lot on about?
> 
> Sorry, like but I've had a slight change of heart, following the Nigerian's being lazy comments and revelations. I hope the door hit her arse on the way out and knocked some of that shit in her brains out.


if you're talking about this bit, from this thread, where does she call Nigerian's lazy?



> often is though- most 'wtf?' moment of my time in HR was a regularly absent Nigerian guy, called into a disciplinary who said it was in the Nigerian culture to be absent/late and we were discriminating on the basis of national characteristics. Only three disciplinaries I had to walk out of to laugh- that was one


or have I missed another post?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 30, 2013)

Libertad said:


> and the poltergeist.


 
but not the house in Richmond


----------



## spanglechick (Jan 30, 2013)

firky said:


> Change for the better not worse.
> 
> This place is a LOT less cut throat than it was. That is good change.


yeah - someone bumped a thread from 2006 the other day. oh yeah - the urban dictionary...  really nasty fighty stuff after the schism.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jan 30, 2013)

aqua said:


> or just didn't think maybe? yes the boards have changed, of course they have. I've been here 10 years already and fucking hell, it would be weird (and very sad) if the posters' lives hadn't moved/changed in that time too.


 
It's not just that people's lives have changed IMO. They are very mainstream now and a lot of that is changing posters. I'm not getting too worked up about it, I'm pretty mainstream myself, but I do think it's a bit of a shame.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 30, 2013)

nah


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 30, 2013)

friedaweed said:


> and so's manter isn't she comrade?


 
I don't think she's fundamentalist, right wing, nor from Oklahoma.


----------



## Firky (Jan 30, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> No, who's FB?


 
Frumious B. 

The only person who can't see a problem, because if you do - you're a troll


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jan 30, 2013)

firky said:


> Change for the better not worse.
> 
> This place is a LOT less cut throat than it was. That is good change.


 
TBF that is also true.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 30, 2013)

firky said:


> Frumious B.
> 
> The only person who can't see a problem, because if you do - you're a troll


 


No, not him.  Someone I know in real life


----------



## friedaweed (Jan 30, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> I don't think she's fundamentalist, right wing, nor from Oklahoma.


But how can you be so sure?


----------



## Winot (Jan 30, 2013)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> It's not just that people's lives have changed IMO. They are very mainstream now and a lot of that is changing posters. I'm not getting too worked up about it, I'm pretty mainstream myself, but I do think it's a bit of a shame.



Although tbh the restaurant recommendations are better.


----------



## ymu (Jan 30, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> I think pbman was the genuine goods, ie that he actually was a fundamentalist right winger from Oklahoma. I didn't think he was someone pretending to be someone else.


You're saying Manter is pretending to be someone else?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 30, 2013)

friedaweed said:


> But how can you be so sure?


 
That's true.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 30, 2013)

ymu said:


> You're saying Manter is pretending to be someone else?


 
We all kinda are, aren't we? My name isn't really 'Johnny Canuck'. Yours isn't 'ymu'.

From that point, there are degrees of role playing.


----------



## Libertad (Jan 30, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> but not the house in Richmond


 
I was disappointed by so much, but not by Beyoncé.


----------



## co-op (Jan 30, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Didn't Manter get voted 'best new poster of the year'?


 
K.O.D.*








*Kiss of Death


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 30, 2013)

If firky wasn't on the boards, I'd probably have suggested that Manter is firky.


----------



## friedaweed (Jan 30, 2013)

So how is this thread going to make 20 pages?

Pingu?


----------



## Firky (Jan 30, 2013)

TBH Aqua I didn't search, I was just going off what Trashy and someone else said 



spanglechick said:


> yeah - someone bumped a thread from 2006 the other day. oh yeah - the urban dictionary... really nasty fighty stuff after the schism.


 

Aye! That was brutal, think a few people re-read that thread and had a reminder of how brutal it was. It's not the most brutal of threads either: there's been threats of actual real world harm on these boards 

I mean how the fuck can you physically threaten people on the internet without feeling like a massive dick? 

I AM GOING TO KICK YOUR HEAD IN SPANGLES, YOU TYPED STUFF I DIDN'T HAVE TO READ AND IT UPST ME


----------



## ymu (Jan 30, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> We all kinda are, aren't we? My name isn't really 'Johnny Canuck'. Yours isn't 'ymu'.
> 
> From that point, there are degrees of role playing.


pbman's real name is pbman?


----------



## trashpony (Jan 30, 2013)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> firky's not wrong about how the boards have changed tbh. Regardless of who said it or what else they might have said I think the fact that someone who's been here for over a year thought this was a place where 'overheads' would fit, even as a joke, does say something IMO.


Although tbf it is a common term where I used to work (and where Manter does) although I'm an overhead so it probably pisses me off a bit more


----------



## aqua (Jan 30, 2013)

firky said:


> TBH Aqua I didn't search, I was just going off what Trashy and someone else said


I might be misreading it, but she wasn't saying nigerians were lazy. she was giving an example of how someone she'd worked with tried to use their own national stereotype as justification for their behaviour.[/quote]




> I AM GOING TO KICK YOUR HEAD IN SPANGLES, YOU TYPED STUFF I DIDN'T HAVE TO READ AND IT UPST ME


----------



## aqua (Jan 30, 2013)

trashpony said:


> Although tbf it is a common term where I used to work (and where Manter does) although I'm an overhead so it probably pisses me off a bit more


this too, in project management speak it's pretty common unfortunately - but then "human resources" kind of states exactly what is thought of employees anyway - not sure manter can be blamed for that one

though yes, using it here without thinking was stupid, using it anywhere is pretty dumb tbh but it does happen


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Jan 30, 2013)

trashpony said:


> Although tbf it is a common term where I used to work (and where Manter does) although I'm an overhead so it probably pisses me off a bit more


I've slipped into workplace jargon meself on occasion.


----------



## Frumious B. (Jan 30, 2013)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> firky's not wrong about how the boards have changed tbh. Regardless of who said it or what else they might have said I think the fact that someone who's been here for over a year thought this was a place where 'overheads' would fit, even as a joke, does say something IMO.


 
Aren't you trying to make something out of nothing? I've just reread the 'overheads' pages here http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/the-good-the-drag-and-the-ugly.285274/page-1556  It's just black humour which doesn't betray any snobbery.  But it's shown up a lot of people here as being all too keen to join the bully's gang. Silly school-playground stuff.


----------



## trashpony (Jan 30, 2013)

aqua said:


> if you're talking about this bit, from this thread, where does she call Nigerian's lazy?
> 
> 
> or have I missed another post?


It was me that said that. It was more in the context of (what seemed like)a slew of posts one after the other where it was slagging off different nationalities for different characteristics. I dunno, I read it while watching Murder in Paradise and it felt a bit off to me


----------



## Firky (Jan 30, 2013)

ah fuck it.


----------



## Firky (Jan 30, 2013)

trashpony said:


> It was me that said that. It was more in the context of (what seemed like)a slew of posts one after the other where it was slagging off different nationalities for different characteristics. I dunno, I read it while watching Murder in Paradise and it felt a bit off to me


 

I burnt my spaghetti because of this thread and I am missing Africa. But I did see Matt Baker handling a massive lubed up cock like sausage with a grin on his face.


----------



## two sheds (Jan 30, 2013)

aqua said:


> I might be misreading it, but she wasn't saying nigerians were lazy. she was giving an example of how someone she'd worked with tried to use their own national stereotype as justification for their behaviour.


 

Yes, that was what I'd taken from it - relating a story about something that had happened.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 30, 2013)

aqua said:


> this too, in project management speak it's pretty common unfortunately - but then "human resources" kind of states exactly what is thought of employees anyway - not sure manter can be blamed for that one
> 
> though yes, using it here without thinking was stupid, using it anywhere is pretty dumb tbh but it does happen


 
Why did they have to replace Personnel with Human Resources and Maintenance with Facilities Management etc. anyway?  If it ain't broken...


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 30, 2013)

firky said:


> I burnt my spaghetti because of this thread and I am missing Africa. But I did see Matt Baker handling a massive lubed up cock like sausage with a grin on his face.


 
Africa's repeated


----------



## trashpony (Jan 30, 2013)

aqua said:


> I might be misreading it, but she wasn't saying nigerians were lazy. she was giving an example of how someone she'd worked with tried to use their own national stereotype as justification for their behaviour.


 
No, she wasn't saying that Nigerians were lazy. I just didn't think the post needed the word Nigerian in it at all.

Anyway, this character assassination makes me uncomfortable so I'm out of this discussion


----------



## ymu (Jan 30, 2013)

trashpony said:


> Although tbf it is a common term where I used to work (and where Manter does) although I'm an overhead so it probably pisses me off a bit more


It wasn't just the use of that term, it was the context in which it was used and then the defence of the comment. Same happened with brain dead house wives. I'm genuinely surprised by that - it's not what I was expecting to find when I realised that there were other threads leading up to this spat.


----------



## ruffneck23 (Jan 30, 2013)

purenarcotic said:


> A whole thread was created because an MP said 'the Jews'. Because saying stuff like that isn't appropriate, whether you say it once or 100 times.
> 
> It was right to be pulled up, it was done in the wrong way, I think firks said it has now been sorted by MP anyhow.


 
fixed


----------



## catinthehat (Jan 30, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Why did they have to replace Personnel with Human Resources and Maintenance with Facilities Management etc. anyway? If it ain't broken...


My employment experience - which I grant may be atypical - tells me that Personnel was nice people in cardis who sorted out your sick pay and national insurance whereas Human Remains is a department of bastards of the first order.


----------



## trashpony (Jan 30, 2013)

catinthehat said:


> My employment experience - which I grant may be atypical - tells me that Personnel was nice people in cardis who sorted out your sick pay and national insurance whereas Human Remains is a department of bastards of the first order.


My cousin is HR. She eats babies for breakfast - pretty much the scariest, hard-arsed person I know. Eyes like lasers


----------



## discokermit (Jan 30, 2013)

trashpony said:


> No, she wasn't saying that Nigerians were lazy. I just didn't think the post needed the word Nigerian in it at all.


yes it did. it was about how someone tried to use a stereotype to their own advantage. if the she had just said "this person came in and tried to use a steroetype to their own advantage, oh how we laughed", it wouldn't be much of an anecdote.


----------



## Firky (Jan 30, 2013)

firky said:


> That's what makes me laugh, poor bloke checking his phone thinking "Jesus fucking christ"


 
The more I think about this the funnier I find it.

"Oohh plenty of suggestions on how to deal with this sensitive management issue...."

Then just scrolling, and scrolling, and scrolling.


----------



## tufty79 (Jan 30, 2013)

catinthehat said:


> My employment experience - which I grant may be atypical - tells me that Personnel was nice people in cardis who sorted out your sick pay and national insurance whereas Human Remains is a department of bastards of the first order.


i'm a nice (when i'm at work, at least) person in a cardi who sorts out your sick pay, and your annual leave, and that line of fluffy in H aaargh. i really wish it wasn't called that


----------



## discokermit (Jan 30, 2013)

you're a sly cunt, firky. "i came across this a few weeks ago but let it pass", you're a fucking liar. just like you did to me a few days ago, you've been searching through posts for dirt then quoting what you fancy out of context. you're a snidey, trolling cunt. anybody taken in by your phoney pc bullshit is a mug.


----------



## catinthehat (Jan 30, 2013)

Urban in 'not taking the woes of departmental management seriously' shocker.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 30, 2013)

tufty79 said:


> i'm a nice (when i'm at work, at least) person in a cardi who sorts out your sick pay, and your annual leave, and that line of fluffy in H aaargh. i really wish it wasn't called that


 
I believe all these changes were taking place around the 80s (or was it 90s), around the same time as giving people different impressive sounding titles instead of pay raises.

I went from a typist to a Typing Services Executive


----------



## ymu (Jan 30, 2013)

catinthehat said:


> My employment experience - which I grant may be atypical - tells me that Personnel was nice people in cardis who sorted out your sick pay and national insurance whereas Human Remains is a department of bastards of the first order.


Recruitment and retention vs hiring and firing.


----------



## trashpony (Jan 30, 2013)

discokermit said:


> yes it did. it was about how someone tried to use a stereotype to their own advantage. if the she had just said "this person came in and tried to use a steroetype to their own advantage, oh how we laughed", it wouldn't be much of an anecdote.


Happy to accept I've got it wrong/.
It was just the context of what felt like a lot of posts about national stereotypes, I dunno. As I said, the thread felt a bit off but I was watching telly at the time and didn't feel incensed enough to post or anything.


----------



## discokermit (Jan 30, 2013)

trashpony said:


> Happy to accept I've got it wrong/.
> It was just the context of what felt like a lot of posts about national stereotypes, I dunno. As I said, the thread felt a bit off but I was watching telly at the time and didn't feel incensed enough to post or anything.


i know what you mean.
i think the posters saying about him possibly being sexist because he was indian should have been pulled up, rather than someone describing someone who is indian as "indian".


----------



## Firky (Jan 30, 2013)

discokermit said:


> you're a sly cunt, firky. "i came across this a few weeks ago but let it pass", you're a fucking liar. just like you did to me a few days ago, you've been searching through posts for dirt then quoting what you fancy out of context. you're a snidey, trolling cunt. anybody taken in by your phoney pc bullshit is a mug.


 

Welders.


----------



## discokermit (Jan 30, 2013)

empty. nothing.


----------



## Firky (Jan 30, 2013)

discokermit

I told you I was going to start a pointless argument with you in advance and I did, you didn't bite though. I was trolling you, you're right. BTW it's Melman to you 

(thought you realised it was a piss take, obvs not!)


----------



## ChrisFilter (Jan 30, 2013)

firky said:


> Change for the better not worse.
> 
> This place is a LOT less cut throat than it was. That is good change.



Is it?


----------



## zenie (Jan 30, 2013)

Despicable


----------



## Frances Lengel (Jan 30, 2013)

discokermit said:


> you're a sly cunt, firky. "i came across this a few weeks ago but let it pass", you're a fucking liar. just like you did to me a few days ago, you've been searching through posts for dirt then quoting what you fancy out of context. you're a snidey, trolling cunt. anybody taken in by your phoney pc bullshit is a mug.


 
Thing is, the guy's still housebound through recovering from a serious illness - And he's clearly a bit bored and also maybe a little bit bitter - Which is why he's engineered this shitstorm out of _absolutely fuck all_ - However many pages of bullshit it's been brought into being by nothing more than a kind of twisted bloody mindedness  caused by  frustration born of ill health.

Mind you, I'd probably be a bit sour too if I wasn't well, so one can't really blame him. The scenario described above _is_ what's happened though.


----------



## Firky (Jan 30, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> Thing is, the guy's still housebound through recovering from a serious illness - And he's clearly a bit bored and also maybe a little bit bitter - Which is why he's engineered this shitstorm out of _absolutely fuck all_ - However many pages of bullshit it's been brought into being by nothing more than a kind of twisted bloody mindedness caused by frustration born of ill health.
> 
> Mind you, I'd probably be a bit sour too if I wasn't well, so one can't really blame him. The scenario described above _is_ what's happened though.


 
I'd rather if you didn't make excuses for myself or presume I am bitter because I stand up to some things, Frances. Some weird pop psychology going on there.

FYI I am not ill or in poor health so your argument is flawed in the first place. Not sure what gave you the impression I was TBH. Weird.

Cheap shots are shit shots. Have another go.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jan 30, 2013)

Don't defend him, cos he'll turn on you 

That took ten years to post because I'm theivin the torrents presently.


----------



## Firky (Jan 30, 2013)

As if I need an excuse to be a bitter cunt


----------



## Citizen66 (Jan 30, 2013)

What caused the bitterness?


----------



## Firky (Jan 30, 2013)

Pull out a chaise longue (John Lewis please, none of that MFI shit) and I'll tell you all about it.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jan 30, 2013)

I'm sitting here for the next, oooh - hour? Which is pretty fucking stupid considering my alarm goes off at ten to six and I'm a need sleep person. But I prefer work to suffer than my evenings.


----------



## two sheds (Jan 30, 2013)

It all started when firky called an Indian bloke 'an Indian' and it went downhill from there  .


----------



## Lord Camomile (Jan 31, 2013)

Fuck me that took a long time to read.

I'm going to get some cereal.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jan 31, 2013)

Popcorn cheerios?


----------



## pengaleng (Jan 31, 2013)

Yo





Frances Lengel said:


> Thing is, the guy's still housebound through recovering from a serious illness - And he's clearly a bit bored and also maybe a little bit bitter - Which is why he's engineered this shitstorm out of _absolutely fuck all_ - However many pages of bullshit it's been brought into being by nothing more than a kind of twisted bloody mindedness  caused by  frustration born of ill health.
> 
> Mind you, I'd probably be a bit sour too if I wasn't well, so one can't really blame him. The scenario described above _is_ what's happened though.



Seriously? You know fuck all about the situation. Everyone is on this poxy website out of boredom, so don't take cheap shots at some fucker being bored because you think they are ill.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Jan 31, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> Popcorn cheerios?


What in the Christ are those?!

I did actually pick up some own-brand Cheerios, but also nabbed a box of Grape Nuts after spying a box at my parents. Fucking Grape Nuts!

Wow, ever hear yourself and feel you should take up drinking or something?


----------



## Firky (Jan 31, 2013)

Pingu should print this thread out and give it to the guy in question.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jan 31, 2013)

lol


----------



## Firky (Jan 31, 2013)

Init though? That's being disciplined 

"Here, read this. You'll gan crackers."


----------



## Citizen66 (Jan 31, 2013)

You're sacked. But not until you've had a chat with firks...


----------



## Lord Camomile (Jan 31, 2013)

"As you can see from this transcript, I consulted the internet and you were deemed to be a bit of a dick. What? Yes, I know he's eight pages behind everyone else, that's just what he does. He's Canadian."


----------



## Firky (Jan 31, 2013)

Lord Camomile said:


> "As you can see from this transcript, I consulted the internet and you were deemed to be a bit of a dick. What? Yes, I know he's eight pages behind everyone else, that's just what he does. He's Canadian."


----------



## JTG (Jan 31, 2013)

Revealing thread is revealing


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 31, 2013)

ymu said:


> pbman's real name is pbman?


 
It is? I wasn't aware of that.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 31, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> Thing is, the guy's still housebound through recovering from a serious illness - And he's clearly a bit bored and also maybe a little bit bitter - Which is why he's engineered this shitstorm out of _absolutely fuck all_ - However many pages of bullshit it's been brought into being by nothing more than a kind of twisted bloody mindedness caused by frustration born of ill health.
> 
> Mind you, I'd probably be a bit sour too if I wasn't well, so one can't really blame him. .


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 31, 2013)

Firky, yesterday:


----------



## ymu (Jan 31, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> It is? I wasn't aware of that.


 
But you just said it was. 

Make yer mind up.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 31, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> What caused the bitterness?


 
He used to be bathing with hot urban cuties; now he's wandering the fens in a raincoat.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 31, 2013)

ymu said:


> But you just said it was.
> 
> .


 
You're making things up again....


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 31, 2013)

firky said:


> Pingu should print this thread out and give it to the guy in question.


 
Do we know if he reads English?


----------



## Firky (Jan 31, 2013)

I'd bet my house on it, India has more graduates getting a degree each year than the population of the UK and after the US it has the highest number of English speakers. Nigeria and China probably eclipse the UK in numbers of English speakers. Sometimes you'll hear someone from Indian upper class society who has an immaculate English accent despite being born and educated in India. There was a documentary on channel 4 about it all a couple of years ago. Very interesting, we're along with US are shrinking violets. There's new kids on the block, who are highly educated, multilingual and loaded with ambition. 

I doubt I'll be alive in 20 years let alone 50 but it will be a very different world to what it is now. I wonder if whitey will be on the back foot? 

PM you canuck, I can't seem to PM you. Need to talk to you about a man with a dog 


Been awake for over 24 hours now save for three hour snooze. Hate this insomnia.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 31, 2013)

firky said:


> I'd bet my house on it,.


 
Of course; the comment was an attempt at humor, based on the tenor of the thread.

Re: pms - others seem able to do it. It must be something to do with your own settings.


----------



## the button (Jan 31, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Firky, yesterday:


Is that Laurie Penny?


----------



## Frances Lengel (Jan 31, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


>


 
Why've you posted a picture of your birth? Which followed that most memorable of occasions when your father, somewhat worse for wear after an evening spent getting high from smoking his own helmet flakes, inserted a pickled egg up a dogs backside, force fed it barley wine, then deposited his load deep in it's slack and yielding rectum?


----------



## friedaweed (Jan 31, 2013)

Can we just keep bestiality posts in the philosophy forum please


----------



## Wilf (Jan 31, 2013)

friedaweed said:


> Can we just keep bestiality posts in the philosophy forum please


I believe this was the first bit of advice Ann Widdecombe gave during her stint as an agony aunt.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jan 31, 2013)

Two questions and a clarification.
What are overheads?
What is a Canucking?

friedaweed I am not grumpy.  <see what i did?
I am fucking hilar.
You just don't get my sense of humour!
I nearly always post with a grin and a cackle. So if I am disagreeing with you about the correct condiment to put on chips or how Americans define bacon, please bear this in mind.  <-


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jan 31, 2013)

Wilf said:


> I believe this was the first bit of advice Ann Widdecombe gave during her stint as an agony aunt.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 31, 2013)

ymu said:


> Sorry, I cross-posted with you firky. Can't help myself.
> 
> 
> He's not fucking bullying you, ffs. He clearly wrote that post before he'd seen that you decided to edit and flounce or he wouldn't have been able to quote it. He's also said nothing unreasonable AFAICS. The dehumanising effect of "the blacks", "the gays", "the Jews" has been discussed on plenty of recent threads. It's hardly a controversial point. People are nouns, not adjectives.


 
AFAICR she was referring to a person, not a people.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 31, 2013)

Wilf said:


> 'The Indian' doesn't sound great, though if you wanted to be charitable there's always a difficulty when you have to refer to someone, don't know their name, only know one thing about them.


 
Quite. The context matters a lot.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 31, 2013)

firky said:


> Yes, I did. If we are going to throw words - in that instance misogynistic (aimed at GG because he thinks heels are horrible and women who can't wear them can't drive (?!) ) - around then I'll throw the same sort of rubbish back. I stand by that quote.
> 
> Just as GG isn't a misogynist, Man' isn't a racist. That is what is being said in my quote.


 
If you look at gentlegreen's posts on that thread alone, he doesn't come across *entirely *as a misogynist, but as someone with "issues" around women. However, taken with some of the other stuff he comes out with, I can understand why people might assume he was a misogynist if they didn't realise that what he actually is, is a misanthrope.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 31, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> Just to add my take, gentlegreen's behaviour towards women in the last couple of days is incredibly upsetting and offensive (not just bad drivers, but women who ever wear heels are apparently poor at their jobs and should not, in his view, be employed) and while not misogynistic, is IMO, closer to that than "the Indian" was to racism. And what we have there in among the outrage, is a hell of a lot of jollying him along. Sadly calling someone a sexist doesn't seem to be much of an insult on urban - and I can understand the desire to cast around for a stronger word. Even if it's not the right one.
> 
> But then I had my own foul up of a very similar nature to "the Indian" this week (referring to "The elderly" and "the disabled" as groups with potential mobility needs). I was very clearly in the wrong, but it was an absence of consideration, rather than gg's prolonged and shameless bigotry.


 
Quite, and when you were corrected you took it in good part and asked for an explanation.


----------



## Wilf (Jan 31, 2013)

As a fellow misanthrope I feel I should defend him and offer some solidarity and support. Oh, hang on...


----------



## Lord Camomile (Jan 31, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> What is a Canucking?


I think VP is indulging in a bit of Canucking right now, if I've understood it correctly


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 31, 2013)

weltweit said:


> Seems like nit picking to an extreme to me... I have bipolar, am I part of the group "the bipolar" or "a person with bipolar" or "a bipolar person".. I am quite comfortable with "the nutter"!


 
It's not about *you*, it's about whether a group of people, *any* group of people, should be regarded and identified by a single defining characteristic such as age or disability when it's only a part of who they actually are.

Me, for example, I'm disabled, but I'm also white; male; middle-aged; a supporter of West Ham United FC; a photographer; an anti-fascist and anti-Zionist; a superannuated punk and many other things. "disabled" isn't all that I am, it's a single facet of me, why should someone be allowed to refer to myself and others with similarly diverse characteristics (and that's all of us, by the way!) by that single signifier when it doesn't represent more than a fraction of me, and is perjorative to boot?


----------



## Citizen66 (Jan 31, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> If you look at gentlegreen's posts on that thread alone, he doesn't come across *entirely *as a misogynist, but as someone with "issues" around women. However, taken with some of the other stuff he comes out with, I can understand why people might assume he was a misogynist if they didn't realise that what he actually is, is a misanthrope.


 
Isn't that the sort of cop-out that loads of bigots come out with as way of a defence?

_Anyway, I can't possibly be a sexist/racist, because I hate *EVERYONE*!!1!_

It's up there with "I've got black friends."


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 31, 2013)

Lord Camomile said:


> I think VP is indulging in a bit of Canucking right now, if I've understood it correctly


 
Not true. "Canucking" means serial posting without reading the thread. I usually read the thread first.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 31, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> Isn't that the sort of cop-out that loads of bigots come out with in way of a defence?
> 
> _Anyway, I can't possibly be a sexist/racist, because I hate *EVERYONE*!!1!_
> 
> It's up there with "I've got black friends."


 
Well, I'm not saying he isn't a cunt, and I'm not saying he's an equal opportunities cunt either, I'm saying that he very obviously has a hard time relating to people _per se_, rather than to any single gender.

Some of my best friends are northerners.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Jan 31, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Not true. "Canucking" means serial posting without reading the thread. I usually read the thread first.


I thought it was just serial posting with added delay.

Duly noted


----------



## Firky (Jan 31, 2013)

I am not getting involved tonight. I have a 1/4 and your mum's coming around, VP


----------



## Orang Utan (Jan 31, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Not true. "Canucking" means serial posting without reading the thread. I usually read the thread first.


But you do reply to very early posts in a long thread when the discussion has moved on.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 31, 2013)

firky said:


> Oh FFS, JC2. Page 4? We're on 12!
> 
> I am going to scrape me tin out.


 
Is that some euphemism for manually evacuating your bowels with a soup spoon?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 31, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> But you do reply to very early posts in a long thread when the discussion has moved on.


 
I know. It's how I roll. I pick up a thread where I left off.


----------



## Wilf (Jan 31, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Is that some euphemism for manually evacuating your bowels with a soup spoon?


2 posters 1 cupasoup


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 31, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> i doubt it, actually. if you look at the big contentious posters who have been barracked non-stop, it's been upchuck, foxy and cheesy. 3 women. The difference here is that manter is being defended by both male and female posters, while quite notably, the only defenders of the first three were a small number of men (apart from upchuck, who had no fans, afaicr).
> 
> there's something to be said about how urban treats unpopular women... but i'm not sure this is a good example of that.


 
Not pbman, detective_boy and ninjaboy, then?
Also, as I recall, upchuck only started getting shit after she lobbed out some particularly nasty little asides about native Australians and about unemployed people, and I don't agree that Cheesy gets barracked (whatever Drew claims  ), she gets argued with. I've argued with her myself, several times, but I've not seen people barrack her just for posting.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 31, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> but the attacks and defenses of her were, i think largely coming from the understanding that she was a woman.


 
Some of the early ones were about how her narrative didn't add up (her pictures, for example), and that seemed to draw in some other posters who just wanted to put the boot in.


----------



## weltweit (Jan 31, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> It's not about *you*, it's about whether a group of people, *any* group of people, should be regarded and identified by a single defining characteristic such as age or disability when it's only a part of who they actually are.


 
Referring to someone as "the indian" is not referring to age or disability rather just their nationality and as far as I am aware indian is no term of abuse like Paki is understood to be for example.



ViolentPanda said:


> Me, for example, I'm disabled, but I'm also white; male; middle-aged; a supporter of West Ham United FC; a photographer; an anti-fascist and anti-Zionist; a superannuated punk and many other things. "disabled" isn't all that I am, it's a single facet of me, why should someone be allowed to refer to myself and others with similarly diverse characteristics (and that's all of us, by the way!) by that single signifier when it doesn't represent more than a fraction of me, and is perjorative to boot?


 
So, to be clear, where Manter said:



Manter said:


> No, because in that case the Indian can't afford to eat while he is here....


 
You find that uncalled for and perjorative.

But if she had perhaps said:

"No, because in that case the Indian employee can't afford to eat while he is here...."

That might have been ok?

Have to say I must be having a senior moment or something because I can't see that the original is perjorative or even offensive, I must be missing something, it just seems to me like someone calling me "the englishman", perhaps when I was among french people, which would not offend me.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 31, 2013)

tribal_princess said:


> Awwww firky done got a new fan club member


 
Poor old fanclub members. They don't realise he's cueing them all up as potential donors for when he's worn out the monkey liver with his legendary drink and drugs intake.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 31, 2013)

weltweit said:


> Referring to someone as "the indian" is not referring to age or disability rather just their nationality and as far as I am aware indian is no term of abuse like Paki is understood to be for example.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Are you entirely stupid?

I said in an earlier post that using the term to refer to an individual is fine IMO, if you've no other *better* term to refer to them by. It's referring to a *group* of people as "the ........." that is perjorative.
Ya fucking fuckspud fuck-knuckle.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Jan 31, 2013)

weltweit said:


> it just seems to me like someone calling me "the englishman", perhaps when I was among french people, which would not offend me.


It may be semantics, and indeed the wrong semantics, but in that instance at least you're "the english_man_", not "the English".

I think. To be honest I'm not too sharp on these things myself, but I do think I'd naturally say "the Indian guy", rather than "the Indian". As mentioned above, it's related to using it as an adjective rather than a noun.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 31, 2013)

friedaweed said:


> Yeah and you constantly stuck up for PBman. What's your point caller?


 
And diesel.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jan 31, 2013)

I can understand the argument that 'the overheads/indians/etc' can be used to dehumanise people but I don't think that means we should never use it as short hand when identifying people. 
We do it naturally, especially in the work place. People are referred to identify them from other people quickly. Waiters talk about tables, doctors/dentists/therapists etc talk about appointment times, teachers talk about years.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 31, 2013)

firky said:


> Prams? Cars? WTF you lot on about?
> 
> Sorry, like but I've had a slight change of heart, following the Nigerian's being lazy comments and revelations. I hope the door hit her arse on the way out and knocked some of that shit in her brains out.


 
So relaying an anecdote where a Nigerian claims "we're all lazy" is the same as you yourself actually saying "Nigerians are lazy"?
If I say "back in '91 I was chatting with my mate Joe at work, and he said 'bloody Nigerians, we all work bloody hard finding ways to avoid working. If we channeled our energy into *actual* work, we'd be world-beaters' ", have I just claimed that Nigerians are lazy and/or crooked, or have I related an anecdote about what a single Nigerian individual has said to me?


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jan 31, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Poor old fanclub members. They don't realise he's cueing them all up as potential donors for when he's worn out the monkey liver with his legendary drink and drugs intake.


 
and to feed firky-puss with the other bits


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 31, 2013)

ymu said:


> pbman's real name is pbman?


 
It was actually Cleatus J. Buttfuck.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 31, 2013)

Puddy_Tat said:


> and to feed firky-puss with the other bits


 
(((((firky-puss)))))


----------



## sheothebudworths (Jan 31, 2013)

weltweit said:


> Referring to someone as "the indian" is not referring to age or disability rather just their nationality and as far as I am aware indian is no term of abuse like Paki is understood to be for example.


 

Referring to someone as 'elderly' or 'disabled' is not *abusive* either, is it? That's not the point.


----------



## cesare (Jan 31, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> I can understand the argument that 'the overheads/indians/etc' can be used to dehumanise people but I don't think that means we should never use it as short hand when identifying people.
> We do it naturally, especially in the work place. People are referred to identify them from other people quickly. Waiters talk about tables, doctors/dentists/therapists etc talk about appointment times, teachers talk about years.



The most obvious shortcut way to refer to you, would be "the ginger" eg "I hope the ginger turns up on time for his induction on Monday". Referring to you by an obvious characteristic, rather than eg "I hope the new guy turns up on time for his induction on Monday".

"Overheads" is pejorative because it's based on perceiving a group of people as a cost burden rather than a revenue benefit.

There's nothing inherently pejorative about tables, appointments or years.


----------



## Firky (Jan 31, 2013)

Wrong htread


----------



## weltweit (Jan 31, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Are you entirely stupid?


 
Quite possibly. My reason now, so long after the event of trying to understand this is that I think I am quite likely to do it myself - and cause offence potentially, as I can't see it clearly.



ViolentPanda said:


> I said in an earlier post that using the term to refer to an individual is fine IMO, if you've no other *better* term to refer to them by. It's referring to a *group* of people as "the ........." that is perjorative.


 
She was referring to one person, the indian person, the only indian person in the group.


Manter said:


> No, because in that case the Indian can't afford to eat while he is here....


 


ViolentPanda said:


> Ya fucking fuckspud fuck-knuckle.


 
It is all very well saying that, and maybe I am being thick or something but I don't get it.
A french person referring to me as "the english" would not offend me one bit

so for example :

No, because in that case the English can't afford to eat while he is here....

That would simply be bad english rather than offensive.

But, as far as I can see, there are no negative connotations to the word "indian".


----------



## weltweit (Jan 31, 2013)

Lord Camomile said:


> It may be semantics, and indeed the wrong semantics, but in that instance at least you're "the english_man_", not "the English".
> 
> I think. To be honest I'm not too sharp on these things myself, but I do think I'd naturally say "the Indian guy", rather than "the Indian". As mentioned above, it's related to using it as an adjective rather than a noun.


 
Yes, I think I probably would say the indian guy also but it seems a minefield this avoiding offence business.


----------



## Firky (Jan 31, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Poor old fanclub members. They don't realise he's cueing them all up as potential donors for when he's worn out the monkey liver with his legendary drink and drugs intake.


 

Aahh, VP. Firstly, I had a transplant because of a hereditary condition. Nothing to do with my mystical legendary drink and drugs intake, that is really quite a crass thing to say. Surprised at you but I know you well enough to know that's not what you meant. Also I never really was one for drugs, I experimented here and there but that's all. I still smoke weed for the muscular pain I get in my abdomen, it helps enormously as well as having other beneficial side effects (i.e getting stoned!). Also I did like a drink, I won't deny that one, I used to hammer it when I was at uni but I was no George Best. As a matter of fact my LFT's were that of a perfectly healthy adult. In the end cancer got the better of my old liver - not drink, not drugs. Check your privileges, old man. 

Now roll the fuck off


----------



## Lord Camomile (Jan 31, 2013)

Again, I don't think it's about there being negative connotations itself, it's about how it is used.

I'm sorry, I can't atriculate this point very well


----------



## friedaweed (Jan 31, 2013)

How would the land lie if we referred to this as the indian thread?


----------



## Firky (Jan 31, 2013)

Six people in an office. Five of them white. One of them is late. Person remarks, "the black is late".

Nice.


----------



## ymu (Jan 31, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> So relaying an anecdote where a Nigerian claims "we're all lazy" is the same as you yourself actually saying "Nigerians are lazy"?
> If I say "back in '91 I was chatting with my mate Joe at work, and he said 'bloody Nigerians, we all work bloody hard finding ways to avoid working. If we channeled our energy into *actual* work, we'd be world-beaters' ", have I just claimed that Nigerians are lazy and/or crooked, or have I related an anecdote about what a single Nigerian individual has said to me?


The post about the Nigerian guy (see what I did there) is a red herring. Trashy had skim read and clocked it as mildly offensive in context, and raised the fact that no one had jumped on the poster as possible evidence that Manter was being hounded for something other than her words (I hope that is a fair summary trashy).

I resurrected it to negate that point because it was posted by Manter.



Orang Utan said:


> I can understand the argument that 'the overheads/indians/etc' can be used to dehumanise people but I don't think that means we should never use it as short hand when identifying people.
> 
> We do it naturally, especially in the work place. People are referred to identify them from other people quickly. Waiters talk about tables, doctors/dentists/therapists etc talk about appointment times, teachers talk about years.


I agree with that. It is a natural form of speech, often scans better in a sentence, and I don't think it's problematic on occasion. It's just not a great habit to get into. The Indian, the Gay, the Cripple, the Bint, the Ginger, the Chav ...what does the straight, white, able-bodied middle-class male get called?

This spat arose from a context of dehumanising and dismissive language being used repeatedly by one poster, sometimes in a context which explicitly marks her out as better than the people she is denigrating. "Pfft. They're the Overhead, I'm the Revenue"; being forced to converse with "brain dead house wives" when the men are having a much more interesting conversation.

I hate the way this thread has turned out, but I understand the anger that caused it and I've been part of that because I am fucking angry about it and the way it is being excused because the poster happens to be popular. I like her too. It's irrelevant. What are friends for if not to tell you when you're being a cunt?


----------



## Firky (Jan 31, 2013)

Six people in an office. One of them is late. Person remarks, "the disabled is late".

Nice.


----------



## trashpony (Jan 31, 2013)

firky said:


> Six people in an office. One of them is late. Person remarks, "the disabled is late".
> 
> Nice.


Typical fucking disabled 

That was supposed to be a joke but it doesn't look v funny written down 

ymu Yes fair summary


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 31, 2013)

firky said:


> Aahh, VP. Firstly, I had a transplant because of a hereditary condition. Nothing to do with my mystical legendary drink and drugs intake, that is really quite a crass thing to say. Surprised at you but I know you well enough to know that's not what you meant. Also I never really was one for drugs, I experimented here and there but that's all. I still smoke weed for the muscular pain I get in my abdomen, it helps enormously as well as having other beneficial side effects (i.e getting stoned!). Also I did like a drink, I won't deny that one, I used to hammer it when I was at uni but I was no George Best. As a matter of fact my LFT's were that of a perfectly healthy adult. In the end cancer got the better of my old liver - not drink, not drugs. Check your privileges, old man.
> 
> Now roll the fuck off


 
You say that, but...


----------



## ymu (Jan 31, 2013)

trashpony said:


> Typical fucking disabled
> 
> That was supposed to be a joke but it doesn't look v funny written down
> 
> ymu Yes fair summary


The best jokes make a serious point. If someone is late, they are late. But if they happen to be disabled, it's because they are disabled. And if they're Nigerian, it's because Nigerians are lazy.

Identifying people by a characteristic that makes them 'other' encourages the type of thought that associates negative (and sometimes positive) characteristics with all 'others'. Like the lad I worked with who justified his racism on the grounds that he'd been beaten up by a black guy.

"Ever been beaten up by a white guy?"

"Yeah, loads of times.  Oh ..."


----------



## friedaweed (Jan 31, 2013)

Six people in an office and one of them says "I don't take orders from a woman" and we're back on track
Unlikely.

20 pages. Good going urbs


----------



## Firky (Jan 31, 2013)

"Women's logic" another classic that's thrown about.

WTF is women's logic?


----------



## Lord Camomile (Jan 31, 2013)

firky said:


> WTF is women's logic?


"It's probably a man's fault".

Eh? Am I right? Eh? Yeah, you know I'm right.

e2a: "That seems a bit Irish" is one I hadn't heard until (relatively) recently. I was talking to my Irish-parented best friend at the time


----------



## Firky (Jan 31, 2013)

In Sainsburys today I saw this stuff and a bar of chocolate that was geared towards women - the packaging was designed like the pill. 

To be honest it's slightly better the Emergency Chocolate rationing which used to be made to look like the MA pill (maybe I am being paranoid).









I must be getting old. I used to fall for this shit


----------



## ymu (Jan 31, 2013)

firky said:


> "Women's logic" another classic that's thrown about.
> 
> WTF is women's logic?


It's the equivalent of dismissing a link to wikipedia on the grounds that it is wikipedia, regardless of how well referenced the article itself is. A refuge for egotistical idiots who have no counter-argument to offer but refuse to admit defeat.


----------



## Firky (Jan 31, 2013)

Right! Really! I am leaving. I said I wasn't getting involved again


----------



## twentythreedom (Jan 31, 2013)

You'll be back


----------



## Firky (Jan 31, 2013)

Nah, I have BBC Africa to watch on iPlayer and some Charlie Brooker to rant at. 

Glitch in the matrix for a second, thread locked and unlocked


----------



## Orang Utan (Jan 31, 2013)

I'm sure this thread was locked just now


----------



## fogbat (Jan 31, 2013)

ymu said:


> I agree with that. It is a natural form of speech, often scans better in a sentence, and I don't think it's problematic on occasion. It's just not a great habit to get into. The Indian, the Gay, the Cripple, the Bint, the Ginger, the Chav ...what does the straight, white, able-bodied middle-class male get called?


Default.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 31, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> It's not about *you*, it's about whether a group of people, *any* group of people, should be regarded and identified by a single defining characteristic such as age or disability when it's only a part of who they actually are.
> 
> Me, for example, I'm disabled, but I'm also white; male; middle-aged; a supporter of West Ham United FC; a photographer; an anti-fascist and anti-Zionist; a superannuated punk and many other things. "disabled" isn't all that I am, it's a single facet of me, why should someone be allowed to refer to myself and others with similarly diverse characteristics (and that's all of us, by the way!) by that single signifier when it doesn't represent more than a fraction of me, and is perjorative to boot?


 
Beardo.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 31, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Not true. "Canucking" means serial posting without reading the thread. I usually read the thread first.


 
Canucking means different things to different people. It's like trying to define love.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 31, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Not pbman, detective_boy and ninjaboy, then?
> .


 Or steelgate, phildwyer, Methlab?


----------



## Firky (Jan 31, 2013)

fogbat said:


> Default.


 

A poster on here pulled me up one night when I was moaning and feeling sorry for myself. We were drunk in a bar, it was madua and it was probably one of the most significant things anyone has ever said to me. You know when someone says something it and it continues to resonate for years after and probably for the rest of you life? Proper put in my place so much more succinct than this thread 

I can't remember what I said to provoke it only the words she said, "fucking hell firky, you're white, comfortably well off twenty something, university educated, male. what the fuck are you moaning at life for? Emo" .


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 31, 2013)

O


ViolentPanda said:


> And diesel.


 
Just goes to show: it's possible to be taken in by someone's presentation on the internet; which might be quite different from their reality.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 31, 2013)

firky said:


> Aahh, VP. Firstly, I had a transplant because of a hereditary condition. Nothing to do with my mystical legendary drink and drugs intake, that is really quite a crass thing to say. Surprised at you but I know you well enough to know that's not what you meant. Also I never really was one for drugs, I experimented here and there but that's all. I still smoke weed for the muscular pain I get in my abdomen, it helps enormously as well as having other beneficial side effects (i.e getting stoned!). Also I did like a drink, I won't deny that one, I used to hammer it when I was at uni but I was no George Best. As a matter of fact my LFT's were that of a perfectly healthy adult. In the end cancer got the better of my old liver - not drink, not drugs. Check your privileges, old man.
> 
> Now roll the fuck off


 

For, life had kick him down to the ground
When he tried to get up
Life would kick him back down
One day Papa called me to his dyin' bed
Put his hands on my shoulders
And in his tears he said
He said, Patches
I'm dependin' on you, son
To pull the family through
My son, it's all left up to you
Two days later Papa passed away, and
I became a man that day
So I told Mama I was gonna quit school, but
She said that was Daddy's strictest rule
So ev'ry mornin' 'fore I went to school
I fed the chickens and I chopped wood too
Sometimes I felt that I couldn't go on
I wanted to leave, just run away from home
But I would remember what my daddy said
With tears in his eyes on his dyin' bed
He said, Patches
I'm dependin' on you, son
I tried to do my best
It's up to you to do the rest
Then one day a strong rain came
And washed all the crops away

etc


----------



## Firky (Jan 31, 2013)

You're doing it again, first time on perhaps years, you're posting random lyrics to thread. "proper urbans" or is it "real urbans" ? I forget


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 31, 2013)

firky said:


> Six people in an office. Five of them white. One of them is late. Person remarks, "the black is late".
> 
> Nice.


 
What's wrong with 'Fred is late'?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 31, 2013)

firky said:


> You're doing it again, first time on perhaps years, you're posting random lyrics to thread. "proper urbans" or is it "real urbans" ? I forget


 
And firky: it's all because of you. 

Firky gave me my mojo back.


----------



## Firky (Jan 31, 2013)

You brushed me away the other day.


----------



## friedaweed (Jan 31, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> O
> 
> 
> Just goes to show: it's possible to be taken in by someone's presentation on the internet; which might be quite different from their reality.


I'm gonna feel really embarrassed if i find out you're not the right wing apologist, gun nut loving, anti semitic, nakid thread stalking, Anne Coulter palm fapping, shit lyrics quoting dude you've been hoodwinking me with all these years dude


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 31, 2013)

firky said:


> You brushed me away the other day.


 
That's how it is in relationships.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 31, 2013)

friedaweed said:


> I'm gonna feel really embarrassed if i find out you're not the right wing apologist, gun nut loving, anti semitic, nakid thread stalking, Anne Coulter palm fapping, shit lyrics quoting dude you've been hoodwinking me with all these years dude


 
Then whatever condiment it is you like to eat crow with, you should get a supply in.


----------



## friedaweed (Jan 31, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> That's how it is in relationships.


Can you have a two man circle jerk?

G'wan go let the gimp out. You need peebs for this JC


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 31, 2013)

friedaweed said:


> Can you have a two man circle jerk?
> 
> G'wan go let the gimp out. You need peebs for this JC


 
Can you have a circle with just two points. How many do you need for a rhombus jerk?


----------



## Firky (Jan 31, 2013)

We need biscuits


----------



## Firky (Jan 31, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> How many do you need for a rhombus jerk?


 
360 for a proper circle jerk


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jan 31, 2013)

firky said:


> We need biscuits


 
Forget that. That's just British weirdness.


----------



## friedaweed (Jan 31, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Can you have a circle with just two points. How many do you need for a rhombus jerk?


A couple of pricks or points of view?

Soggy biscuit is on Johnny. Looks like you could end up with a mouthful off someone on this thread after all


----------



## friedaweed (Jan 31, 2013)

Speaking of circle yerks
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/21283085
1 hour 45 mins to go


----------



## Wilf (Jan 31, 2013)

friedaweed said:


> Speaking of circle yerks
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/21283085
> 1 hour 45 mins to go


PSG seem to have bought Lord Beckham's hair.


----------



## ymu (Feb 1, 2013)

firky said:


> "Women's logic" another classic that's thrown about.
> 
> WTF is women's logic?


Actually, there's another point to be made in response to this. There are subtle differences in the way men and women communicate, probably due to social factors. The best explanation I've seen is this:

When a woman asks you if you're hungry, they don't mean "are you hungry", they mean "I'm hungry, can we eat soon please?". Men (I am reliably informed) don't get this and it's probably a source of some confusion and occasional conflict.


----------



## free spirit (Feb 1, 2013)

wtf did you lot do to this thread?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Feb 1, 2013)

friedaweed said:


> A couple of pricks or points of view?
> 
> Soggy biscuit is on Johnny. Looks like you could end up with a mouthful off someone on this thread after all


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Feb 1, 2013)

ymu said:


> Actually, there's another point to be made in response to this. There are subtle differences in the way men and women communicate, probably due to social factors. The best explanation I've seen is this:
> 
> When a woman asks you if you're hungry, they don't mean "are you hungry", they mean "I'm hungry, can we eat soon please?". Men (I am reliably informed) don't get this and it's probably a source of some confusion and occasional conflict.


 
'Women don't mean what they say' shocker?

If they ask 'are you hungry', why don't they just mean that, ie, asking the person if they're hungry.

p.s. that sounds like a huge crock.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Feb 1, 2013)

free spirit said:


> wtf did you lot do to this thread?


 
You mean, the thread about the unnamed transfer worker from India who allegedly has male/female issues?

That thread got packed in a steamer trunk and mailed to Nicaragua.


----------



## ymu (Feb 1, 2013)

Man in tells woman what women are like shock!


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Feb 1, 2013)

ymu said:


> Man in tells woman what women are like shock!


 
Man in poster misinterprets post shocker.


----------



## Citizen66 (Feb 1, 2013)

If my gf wants me to do something she always says "do you want..." 

do you want to take the rubbish out? 

well, not particularly, since you're asking.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Feb 1, 2013)

I've learnt not to say 'do you want' when food shopping.


----------



## Pingu (Feb 1, 2013)

free spirit said:


> wtf did you lot do to this thread?


 
it got urbaned

some interesting points and views being raised though tbh


----------



## Winot (Feb 1, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> If my gf wants me to do something she always says "do you want..."
> 
> do you want to take the rubbish out?
> 
> well, not particularly, since you're asking.



Mrs Winot's version is "We should take the rubbish out".


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Feb 1, 2013)

This seems to have gone a bit "men mars women venus" now


----------



## trashpony (Feb 1, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> This seems to have gone a bit "men mars women venus" now


Do you need to go into your cave?


----------



## ymu (Feb 1, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> This seems to have gone a bit "men mars women venus" now


It's nothing to do with Mars and Venus. It's socialisation. I didn't believe it was that stark a difference when I read it but it's surprising how reaction from both sexes tends to confirm that it is kinda true.


----------



## Firky (Feb 1, 2013)

ymu said:


> Actually, there's another point to be made in response to this. There are subtle differences in the way men and women communicate, probably due to social factors. The best explanation I've seen is this:
> 
> When a woman asks you if you're hungry, they don't mean "are you hungry", they mean "I'm hungry, can we eat soon please?". Men (I am reliably informed) don't get this and it's probably a source of some confusion and occasional conflict.


 
Telling Laurie on you!

I believe a lot of women are more intuitive than men. Especially mums. Mums have some sort of sixth sense thing going on that instinctively know.



MrsDarlingsKiss said:


> I've learnt not to say 'do you want' when food shopping.


 
Why, is it because Mr D is prone to throwing any ol' shite into the trolley regardless if it is needed or not? 

*owner of three bags of flour of different grades and never been used*


Dunno, but I do know Mars is lovely


----------



## two sheds (Feb 1, 2013)

ymu said:


> It's nothing to do with Mars and Venus. It's socialisation. I didn't believe it was that stark a difference when I read it but it's surprising how reaction from both sexes tends to confirm that it is kinda true.


 
You would say that though wouldn't you 



/scarpers

And I've mentioned it before, you don't want to annoy mothers because of the left hook they develop from carrying babies round all day.


----------



## ymu (Feb 1, 2013)

I don't think it's instinct firky; I suppose there could be something on the missing chromosomal leg that men don't have but nurture explains it, I think. Most women have been brought up to know how to run a household with the expectation that one day they would have to. We're censured for being aggressive or asserting our own needs and rewarded for being nurturing. We're used to building plans around the needs of others. It's not so much that it comes naturally as these modes of communication being part of the role that is thrust upon us.

Are you hungry? No.

Do you fancy these veggies? No.

Useless. We have a reason for asking these questions. I've stopped asking open-enders.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Feb 1, 2013)

trashpony said:


> Do you need to go into your cave?


Wait, this must mean you need to go into your cave


----------



## ymu (Feb 1, 2013)

We have a different stereotype to live up to, sweetheart.


----------



## Voley (Feb 1, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Wait, this must mean you need to go into your cave


Don't be daft. She's telling you to put the kettle on.


----------



## spring-peeper (Feb 1, 2013)

firky said:


> Six people in an office. Five of them white. One of them is late. Person remarks, "the black is late".
> 
> Nice.




Six people are in an office.  Five are brunettes.  One of them is late.  Person remarks, "the blond is late".

Nice.


----------



## Citizen66 (Feb 1, 2013)

spring-peeper said:
			
		

> Six people are in an office.  Five are brunettes.  One of them is late.  Person remarks, "the blond is late".
> 
> Nice.



doesn't work. ginger might.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 1, 2013)

Six people are in an office. Five aren't Firky. One of them is late. Person remarks, "Firky's late".

Lazy bastard .


----------



## ymu (Feb 1, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> doesn't work. ginger might.


I don't think that's true. Blond, and especially blonde, is often used to imply stupidity or air-headedness as well as the more positive sexually attractive meme. If I was blonde, I'd hate to be identified by it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 1, 2013)

ymu said:


> I don't think that's true. Blond, and especially blonde, is often used to imply stupidity or air-headedness as well as the more positive sexually attractive meme. If I was blonde, I'd hate to be identified by it.


people would go, 'yeh, that ymu, she's the blonde over there'


----------



## Firky (Feb 1, 2013)

Aye there's plenty blonde jokes but they only apply to blonde women (apart from maybe BJ).

Red headed women = sexy
Red headed men = ginger minger


----------



## cesare (Feb 1, 2013)

And Boris.


----------



## Firky (Feb 1, 2013)

Sorry, BJ = Boris Johnson with his foppish hair.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Feb 1, 2013)

firky if he wants it to then that counts as sharing the calories as well as the guilt


----------



## ymu (Feb 1, 2013)

firky said:


> Aye there's plenty blonde jokes but they only apply to blonde women (apart from maybe BJ).
> 
> Red headed women = sexy
> Red headed men = ginger minger


Blond men get it a bit. But I think it has less sting. Being denigrated as the most stupid and only good for one thingest of a sex already routinely denigrated as stupid and only good for one thing sucks.


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Feb 1, 2013)

ymu said:


> Blond men get it a bit. But I think it has less sting. Being denigrated as the most stupid and only good for one thingest of a sex already routinely denigrated as stupid and only good for one thing sucks.


 
I miss being blonde.


----------



## RaverDrew (Feb 1, 2013)

Anyone got a brief summary of this thread ? I haven't got time to read it all


----------



## lizzieloo (Feb 1, 2013)

Oh god


----------



## two sheds (Feb 1, 2013)

RaverDrew said:


> Anyone got a brief summary of this thread ? I haven't got time to read it all


 
Pingu just-found-out-a-guy-who-works-for-him-was-being-a-git


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 1, 2013)

RaverDrew said:


> Anyone got a brief summary of this thread ? I haven't got time to read it all


 

intense introspection on the nature of urbans, new livers, manter, indian food and masonic conspiracies amongst the construction industry


----------



## fractionMan (Feb 1, 2013)

RaverDrew said:


> Anyone got a brief summary of this thread ? I haven't got time to read it all


 
it's rubbish, don't bother.


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 1, 2013)

fractionMan said:


> it's rubbish, don't bother.


 


discokermit didn't offer anyone out, so thread fail imo


----------



## Smangus (Feb 1, 2013)

Going for a post work Friday beer to night with some fellow overheads…..

 Can’t wait!


----------



## two sheds (Feb 1, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> discokermit didn't offer anyone out, so thread fail imo


 
And there hadn't been a similar thread in the past so the pogo didn't need to get involved.


----------



## trashpony (Feb 1, 2013)

ymu said:


> I don't think that's true. Blond, and especially blonde, is often used to imply stupidity or air-headedness as well as the more positive sexually attractive meme. If I was blonde, I'd hate to be identified by it.


My niece who is 22 regularly says she's 'having a blonde moment' (she has almost white blonde hair). It makes me sad


----------



## Firky (Feb 1, 2013)

Overheads and blackheads. Both get squeezed.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Feb 1, 2013)

firky said:


> Overheads and blackheads. Both get squeezed.



 I love squeezing blackheads esp on my cousinso back he has the double ones with hairs trapped inside (((my cousins hairy spotty back)))

DONT JUDGE ME


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## DotCommunist (Feb 1, 2013)

MrsDarlingsKiss said:


> I love squeezing blackheads esp on my cousinso back he has the double ones with hairs trapped inside (((my cousins hairy spotty back)))
> 
> DONT JUDGE ME


 

i can understand the pleaure in doing your own but people who chase you round demanding 'let me squeeze that for you' are a bit strange imo


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## Thimble Queen (Feb 1, 2013)

He's family, he cant do it himself. I'm doing him a favour.


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## mango5 (Feb 1, 2013)

ymu said:


> Actually, there's another point to be made in response to this. There are subtle differences in the way men and women communicate, probably due to social factors. The best explanation I've seen is this:
> 
> When a woman asks you if you're hungry, they don't mean "are you hungry", they mean "I'm hungry, can we eat soon please?". Men (I am reliably informed) don't get this and it's probably a source of some confusion and occasional conflict.


Are you speaking for me? 
*checks ladyparts*
Please don't. I don't play games with questions like that. It's a rotten explanation of the difference between sexes.


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## Thimble Queen (Feb 1, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> i can understand the pleaure in doing your own but people who chase you round demanding 'let me squeeze that for you' are a bit strange imo



besides there is no chasing hes a willing participant...


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## Firky (Feb 1, 2013)

That is absolutely rank, MrsD. 

There's not an appropriate smiley in the world for that one! URRRGH!


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## Thimble Queen (Feb 1, 2013)

The thing is... it does actually need to be done otherwise they get really deep inside and infected and painful.... I wouldn't do it for anyone else.


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## Orang Utan (Feb 1, 2013)

You are a vile pervert, MDK.
What's worse is that you justify it by saying it is with a relative. That makes it even worse!
<shudders>
It's weird enough when lasses want to do it on their partners.


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## Thimble Queen (Feb 1, 2013)

spot juicing incest


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## quimcunx (Feb 1, 2013)

My dad got me to cut his toenails at christmas.   then impatiently told me I wasn't cutting them short enough and did them himself without any problem.


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## friedaweed (Feb 1, 2013)

God there's some sick fucks on this thread


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## Thimble Queen (Feb 1, 2013)

quimcunx said:


> My dad got me to cut his toenails at christmas.   then impatiently told me I wasn't cutting them short enough and did them himself without any problem.




Bleurgh I would NEVER touch anyone elses FEET


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## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Feb 1, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> intense introspection on the nature of urbans, new livers, manter, indian food and masonic conspiracies amongst the construction industry


 
And now back zit squeezing.


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## two sheds (Feb 1, 2013)

Should we change the thread title to 'Just found out a guy who works for me is being a zit'?


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## Firky (Feb 1, 2013)

Because of Urban and the sick f'cks on it I know there's videos of epic blackhead squeezing and boil lancing. With the puss oozing out in macro-photography.

Never ever ever watched them because I'd hoy my ring up.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Feb 1, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> If my gf wants me to do something she always says "do you want..."
> 
> do you want to take the rubbish out?
> 
> well, not particularly, since you're asking.


 
My wife says, 'take the rubbish out'.

No, that's not true. She says 'take the garbage out'. We don't say rubbish unless we're talking about a really stupid idea.


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## two sheds (Feb 1, 2013)

A 'please' would be nice.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Feb 1, 2013)

ymu said:


> I don't think it's instinct firky; I suppose there could be something on the missing chromosomal leg that men don't have but nurture explains it, I think.


 
You're admitting that there are genetic differences between men and women that lead to differences in behaviour??!!

This opens up a host of questions: if extra intuition is on that extra chromosome, could extra emotionality be there too?


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Feb 1, 2013)

spring-peeper said:


> Six people are in an office. Five are brunettes. One of them is late. Person remarks, "the blond is late".
> 
> Nice.


 
'Betty is late'.


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## two sheds (Feb 1, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> This opens up a host of questions: if extra intuition is on that extra chromosome, could extra emotionality be there too?


 
No I think it's tits.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Feb 1, 2013)

firky said:


> That is absolutely rank, MrsD.
> 
> There's not an appropriate smiley in the world for that one! URRRGH!


 
You've led a sheltered life, haven't you?


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Feb 1, 2013)

MrsDarlingsKiss said:


> spot juicing incest


 
It's not illegal long as you spit, don't swallow.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Feb 1, 2013)

quimcunx said:


> My dad got me to cut his toenails at christmas.  then impatiently told me I wasn't cutting them short enough and did them himself without any problem.


 
Uh, maybe I've led a sheltered life, too.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Feb 1, 2013)

two sheds said:


> No I think it's tits.


 
Yes, they're there too. Gold star for you.


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## two sheds (Feb 1, 2013)

*proud*


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## spring-peeper (Feb 1, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> 'Betty is late'.



'Robert is late'


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Feb 1, 2013)

spring-peeper said:


> 'Robert is late'


 
Exactly. The person's name.


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## spring-peeper (Feb 1, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Exactly. The person's name.




Unless you don't know the person's name.   

Then a distinguishing feature is used.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Feb 1, 2013)

spring-peeper said:


> Unless you don't know the person's name.
> 
> Then a distinguishing feature is used.


 
Usually, if six people work together and one is late, they'll know the name of the one who's late.


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## spring-peeper (Feb 1, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Usually, if six people work together and one is late, they'll know the name of the one who's late.




Not if they are not in that department.   Or a manager who can't remember peoples names.


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## two sheds (Feb 1, 2013)

Or they're all Indian.


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## ymu (Feb 1, 2013)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> You're admitting that there are genetic differences between men and women that lead to differences in behaviour??!!
> 
> This opens up a host of questions: if extra intuition is on that extra chromosome, could extra emotionality be there too?


No. Precisely the opposite.


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## Firky (Feb 1, 2013)

26 pages by monday


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Feb 1, 2013)

ymu said:


> No. Precisely the opposite.


 
 But you've got that extra chromosomal arm: anything could be on it.


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## ymu (Feb 1, 2013)

Of course. But how are you going to separate nature vs nurture?


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## Firky (Feb 1, 2013)

Bring back phrenology!


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