# 'Van hits pedestrians' on London Bridge in 'major incident'



## Lord Camomile (Jun 3, 2017)

'Van hits pedestrians' on London Bridge - BBC News

Fuck's sake, not another one... 

edit: breaking news, story developing


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## not-bono-ever (Jun 3, 2017)

'Van hits pedestrians' on London Bridge - BBC News

no more info atm


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## DaveCinzano (Jun 3, 2017)




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## Edie (Jun 3, 2017)




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## cyril_smear (Jun 3, 2017)

just seen this; oh dear.


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## Corax (Jun 3, 2017)

Oh FFS.


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## editor (Jun 3, 2017)

Shit: 


> Police are responding to reports a van has hit pedestrians on London Bridge in central London.
> 
> Witnesses have said that armed officers are understood to be at the scene after a white van hit pedestrians.
> 
> ...


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## Bernie Gunther (Jun 3, 2017)

Edited to add: tweet is from a Sun reporter, so ...


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## sealion (Jun 3, 2017)

Sky News (@SkyNews) on Twitter


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## Lord Camomile (Jun 3, 2017)

No other mention of stabbing, just Sky so far.


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## magneze (Jun 3, 2017)

B&Q van? Unlikely to be terrorism.


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## wiskey (Jun 3, 2017)




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## Lord Camomile (Jun 3, 2017)

Slightly odd time for an attack, rather than during heavy commuter traffic. Guess it's still Saturday night in London.


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## cyril_smear (Jun 3, 2017)

No indication as to whether it was or was not an accident?


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## Corax (Jun 3, 2017)

magneze said:


> B&Q van? Unlikely to be terrorism.


I really don't see why not.


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## DaveCinzano (Jun 3, 2017)

_Sun_ reporter (the paper is based at 1 London Bridge Road) has tweeted seeing a man led away in handcuffs by police:


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## editor (Jun 3, 2017)

*Threads merged


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## Lord Camomile (Jun 3, 2017)




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## cyril_smear (Jun 3, 2017)

Corax said:


> I really don't see why not.



Exactly. I really hope it's an accident rather than an incident.


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## DaveCinzano (Jun 3, 2017)

Sky reports that London Bridge rail station closed at request of police:


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## J Ed (Jun 3, 2017)

magneze said:


> B&Q van? Unlikely to be terrorism.



Not necessarily. In reality ofc we don't know much at all about what has happened yet, as the excellent image that Lord Camomile has posted says.


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## DaveCinzano (Jun 3, 2017)

Bank and Borough tube stations also closed, trains not stopping:


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## Lord Camomile (Jun 3, 2017)

The whole of Bank station or just the Northern Line? Why would they close the whole station


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## sealion (Jun 3, 2017)

Does'nt sound good according to lbc radio. Callers saying a white van mounted pavement and run people over. Reports of people being stabbed by the people in the van.


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## TheHoodedClaw (Jun 3, 2017)

This guy's the managing editor of the Spectator Will Heaven (@WillHeaven) on Twitter

He was there when it happened.


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## Ms T (Jun 3, 2017)

Van could easily be stolen - that's what happened in Stockholm.

A witness has told Reuters they saw people with their throats cut.


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## frogwoman (Jun 3, 2017)

Oh fuck


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## MrSki (Jun 3, 2017)

Eye witness on 5Live says at least 5 people on the ground but the white van swerved in an S shape so could be a drunk driver. No better for the victims but better than a terrorist attack.


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## ouirdeaux (Jun 3, 2017)

Cabbie on LBC said he saw people jump out of van, randomly stabbing people.


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## J Ed (Jun 3, 2017)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> This guy's the managing editor of the Spectator Will Heaven (@WillHeaven) on Twitter
> 
> He was there when it happened.



He says that he heard about stabbing, not saw. Not saying it didn't happen but we don't know either way.


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## TheHoodedClaw (Jun 3, 2017)

J Ed said:


> He says that he heard about stabbing, not saw. Not saying it didn't happen but we don't know either way.



No shit.


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## sealion (Jun 3, 2017)

J Ed said:


> Not saying it didn't happen but we don't know either way.


I am listen to lbc radio. Cab drivers are phoning in telling what they have witnessed, it sounds fucking grim.


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## Treacle Toes (Jun 3, 2017)

sealion said:


> Does'nt sound good according to lbc radio. Callers saying a white van mounted pavement and run people over. Reports of people being stabbed by the people in the van.


Eye witness reporter didn't mention stabbing at all and only one man in the van.

Said the van swerved her and hit 5 or more people. Also said she had no idea where the lone man went.


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## Cold Harbour (Jun 3, 2017)

Our bus stop for Brixton people heading back from an evening on Bankside though, stood there for a few rides home.


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## sealion (Jun 3, 2017)

Rutita1 said:


> Eye witness reporter didn't mention stabbing at all and only one man in the van


I have been listening all evening. Eye witnesses said three men in white van run people over. Then went on a stabbing spree.


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## Manter (Jun 3, 2017)

Corax said:


> Oh FFS.


This. ^^


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## Wookey (Jun 3, 2017)

"significant gunfire" reports one witness on Fox


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## DaveCinzano (Jun 3, 2017)

Reporter with Bureau of Investigative Journalism says has a witness claiming a stabbing in Southwark Tavern, ‘gunshots heard’:



(The ‘heard gunshots’ thing is something that's been claimed in a few places, but this is the first time I've seen it tracked back to a purported witness or a person who has spoken to a purported witness.)


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## skyscraper101 (Jun 3, 2017)

I heard the fox report too. Some ex military fella called Tony Murphy saying 'significant gunfire' happened about 10 mins before police arrived.

Horrid stuff anyway.


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## J Ed (Jun 3, 2017)

sealion said:


> I am listen to lbc radio. Cab drivers are phoning in telling what they have witnessed, it sounds fucking grim.



Grim


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## Calamity1971 (Jun 3, 2017)

Fucking hell. I was hoping freak accident, mechanical failure etc. This is awful .


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## Lord Camomile (Jun 3, 2017)

People are actually trying to link this to Ramadan. For fuck's sake...

Every time something like this happens it strengthens the resolve of those on the right, both the perpetrators and the reactionaries, and makes it harder to build bridges and keep communities together.

Fuck's sake...


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## TheHoodedClaw (Jun 3, 2017)




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## Lord Camomile (Jun 3, 2017)

Slight hope: we haven't heard of any fatalities yet.


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## J Ed (Jun 3, 2017)




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## Artaxerxes (Jun 3, 2017)

Lord Camomile said:


> Slight hope: we haven't heard of any fatalities yet.




It's a fucking good job this wasn't on a weekday morning, London Bridge is thick with people.


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## DaveCinzano (Jun 3, 2017)

Police confirm they are also responding to Borough Market as well as London Bridge:


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## Mungy (Jun 3, 2017)

are all our urbanites alright?


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## Bungle73 (Jun 3, 2017)

Apparently there was a BBC  reporter on the bridge at time. This is what she witnessed:



> BBC reporter Holly Jones, who was on the bridge at the time of the incident, said the van was driven by a man and was "probably travelling at about 50 miles an hour".
> 
> "He swerved right round me and then hit about five or six people. He hit about two people in front of me and then three behind," Ms Jones told the BBC News Channel.
> 
> ...


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## Cheesypoof (Jun 3, 2017)

Mungy said:


> are all our urbanites alright?


 
one pal of mine is alright x


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## cyril_smear (Jun 3, 2017)

Bungle73 said:


> Apparently there was a BBC  reporter on the bridge at time. This is what she witnessed:



Swerved to avoid her? Sounds possibly like a drug/drunk driver.


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## skyscraper101 (Jun 3, 2017)

Second incident at Borough Market apparently.


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## TheHoodedClaw (Jun 3, 2017)

Wonder what the hell was going on here


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## Lord Camomile (Jun 3, 2017)

cyril_smear said:


> Swerved to avoid her? Sounds possibly like a drug/drunk driver.


"round her", not to avoid her. She could have just been incredibly lucky.

It's horrible to hope something is just an accident, but the police responses make it hard to think it was at this stage.


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## Pickman's model (Jun 3, 2017)

Lord Camomile said:


> "round her", not to avoid her. She could have just been incredibly lucky.
> 
> It's horrible to hope something is just an accident, but the police responses make it hard to think it was at this stage.


yeh cos the police always respond appropriately

whatever it was, please don't use the cop response as a basis for decision making: on that basis you'd have said at a similar stage in 2005 that jean charles de menezes was a terrorist.


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## DaveCinzano (Jun 3, 2017)

CNN report with single eyewitness account:

London Bridge: Van mows down pedestrians, witness says - CNN.com


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## Manter (Jun 3, 2017)

My twitter & Facebook feeds full of people offering tea, beds, help to get home etc.

It's a massive cliche but when shit like this happens always look for the helpers....


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## sealion (Jun 3, 2017)

Now 5 or 6 gunshots or explosions heard in southwark street according to lbc.


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## Orang Utan (Jun 3, 2017)

Manter said:


> It's a massive cliche but when shit like this happens always look for the helpers....


Never understood what that meant!


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## marty21 (Jun 3, 2017)

Very busy around there ,loads of pubs and restaurants, I've been there on a Saturday night. Hopefully no one has been killed


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## oryx (Jun 3, 2017)

We got the 10.15 train back from London Bridge just now and all was quiet.

Sounds absolutely awful. I hope no-one has been killed.


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## Ms T (Jun 3, 2017)

Someone I know on R5 saying he's been told of a stabbing in Southwark Tavern and multiple reports of gunfire.


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## Cheesypoof (Jun 3, 2017)

I used to work in London Bridge, as I am sure many of you have. This is our beloved, sacred place '


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## skyscraper101 (Jun 3, 2017)

Two reports of gunfire on Sky News now.


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## tommers (Jun 3, 2017)

sealion said:


> Now 5 or 6 gunshots or explosions heard in southwark street according to lbc.



I'm watching a reporter on BBC stood on Southwark Street.  He isn't running.


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## Celyn (Jun 3, 2017)

Yuk.   it was better when there was some chance of thinking it "only" an accident.


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## scifisam (Jun 3, 2017)

Lord Camomile said:


> Slightly odd time for an attack, rather than during heavy commuter traffic. Guess it's still Saturday night in London.



They'd have to wait till a time when the roads were slightly less busy. That commuter traffic would make it impossible to get any speed up.


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## Dogsauce (Jun 3, 2017)

Gunfire could be the peelers rather than terrorists.


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## Cold Harbour (Jun 3, 2017)

Pal in Old Kings Head now said it was 'armed police shooting people' (opposite Southwark Tavern up alleyway).


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## Orang Utan (Jun 3, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> Never understood what that meant!


Ah: Fred Rogers — 'Look for the Helpers'


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## Lord Camomile (Jun 3, 2017)

scifisam said:


> They'd have to wait till a time when the roads were slightly less busy. That commuter traffic would make it impossible to get any speed up.


Aye, occurred to me after posting.


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## Cheesypoof (Jun 3, 2017)

Texting mates..... x


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## scifisam (Jun 3, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> Never understood what that meant!



It means that one person (or possibly three this time) may have set out to cause harm but there are hundreds going over to help, too - paramedics, doctors and lots of just random people - so don't give up on humanity just yet.


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## Dogsauce (Jun 3, 2017)

Like Manchester when the news first came through, I'm hoping that it isn't as bad as it sounds, looking hopefully for things to confirm this. 

Fuckers.


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## sealion (Jun 3, 2017)

tommers said:


> I'm watching a reporter on BBC stood on Southwark Street.  He isn't running.


It's whats been reported live on lbc. Im not making it up.


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## marty21 (Jun 3, 2017)

My mum rang to check I was OK  London Bridge isn't very far from Hackney tbf.


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## tommers (Jun 3, 2017)

sealion said:


> It's whats been reported live on lbc. Im not making it up.



Not for a minute saying you are mate.


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## Treacle Toes (Jun 3, 2017)

sealion said:


> It's whats been reported live on lbc. Im not making it up.


Yes but it could be wrong. Many early reports are.

This is more likely a timing thing. Already happened bur being reported as ongoing.


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## Ms T (Jun 3, 2017)

Someone on 5live who saw a man being stabbed on Borough High Street. He's in a state of complete shock.


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## Ms T (Jun 3, 2017)

Police looking for three suspects who may be armed. Fuck.


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## sealion (Jun 3, 2017)

Rutita1 said:


> Yes but it could be wrong. Many early reports are.


I agree with. Lbc are taking calls from people that witnessed these events as it happened and before sky etc put there slant on it.


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## neonwilderness (Jun 3, 2017)

Met police twitter now reporting an incident in Vauxhall as well


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## gawkrodger (Jun 3, 2017)

Met Police twitter saying police have fire shots


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## Lord Camomile (Jun 3, 2017)




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## Ms T (Jun 3, 2017)

Police confirming stabbing and that they've fired shots. Now responding to incident in Vauxhall. I've just driven through there and no sign of anything.


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## marty21 (Jun 3, 2017)

BBC reporting that they are looking for 3 suspects ,also an incident in Vauxhall .


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## passenger (Jun 3, 2017)

It sounds like its really kicking off Vauxhall now


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## Tankus (Jun 3, 2017)

'


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## xenon (Jun 3, 2017)

Listening to LBC too.  King William Street cordoned off. Police going into Monument tube station.


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## xenon (Jun 3, 2017)

Anyway it's obviously a frenetic situation.  No point trying to speculate exactly just now.


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## binka (Jun 3, 2017)

Sky news just had live pictures of the police taking someone into custody and then shouting at everyone to leave the area


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## ddraig (Jun 3, 2017)

they just nicked someone on live sky news feed in Southwark


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## marty21 (Jun 3, 2017)

BBC saying it is an on-going incident and telling people to go to a place of safety . WTF!


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## Wookey (Jun 3, 2017)

More than one fatality at London Bridge say police.


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## Vintage Paw (Jun 3, 2017)

They just posted this:


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## Corax (Jun 3, 2017)

The number of people who find it amusing (or something) to post a picture of an internet celebrity or meme claiming it's their brother/son/etc and they were at the scene, is really incredibly depressing.


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## danny la rouge (Jun 3, 2017)

It all sounds pretty frightening. No point in trying to work out what's going on. Just hope everyone is OK.


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## Artaxerxes (Jun 4, 2017)

xenon said:


> Listening to LBC too.  King William Street cordoned off. Police going into Monument tube station.




My building is on kws, I've phoned our night shift guy and made sure he's ok.


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## Corax (Jun 4, 2017)

Wookey said:


> More than one fatality at London Bridge say police.


Saw some overhead footage of ambulances streaming towards the site - there were dozens of them.


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## ohmyliver (Jun 4, 2017)

Artaxerxes said:


> My building is on kws, I've phoned our night shift guy and made sure he's ok.


I work in 1 London Bridge.  Hope the security people who I swap bad jokes with whilst on a fag break are ok.


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## tommers (Jun 4, 2017)

Very odd scenes on the BBC.  Loads of people walking down Southwark Street with their hands on their heads.


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## shygirl (Jun 4, 2017)

Terrible news.  Thoughts go out to the victims and all who witnessed the attacks.


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## Mr.Bishie (Jun 4, 2017)

BBC now tweeting fatalities at London Bridge


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## shygirl (Jun 4, 2017)

Fucking disingenous BB fucking C, playing footage of a scene in a bar, advising viewers to listen carefully, someone in bar shouted 'fucking Mulims' (which they had played a few minutes ago) and then apologised for the offensive language.  They wanted people to hear it, else they wouldn't have played it a second time.


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## shygirl (Jun 4, 2017)

Cunts who did it. And cunts who back it/engineer these incidents.


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## DaveCinzano (Jun 4, 2017)

NBC notes Trump tweeting about it, but declines to quote President of the United States on the apparent grounds that POTUS is not a credible news source:


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## Corax (Jun 4, 2017)

That cordon must cover a huge area by now.

Vauxhall station reopen.  Maybe not a related incident.


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## ddraig (Jun 4, 2017)

shygirl said:


> Fucking disingenous BB fucking C, playing footage of a scene in a bar, advising viewers to listen carefully, someone in bar shouted 'fucking Mulims' (which they had played a few minutes ago) and then apologised for the offensive language.  They wanted people to hear it, else they wouldn't have played it a second time.


saw that vid on original tweet and wondered if they'd edit it
not that they should have


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## shygirl (Jun 4, 2017)

I don't think they should have either. But don't tell viewers to listen then make out you've only just realised there was swearing on there.


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## shygirl (Jun 4, 2017)

My son is safely indoors with his g/f.


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## shygirl (Jun 4, 2017)

May is going to be all strong and stable now.  What an opportunity for her.


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## Corax (Jun 4, 2017)

Eyewitness report that one of the three men attacking the market had what sounds like a bomb-jacket on.


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## not-bono-ever (Jun 4, 2017)

not taking the piss or anything, but Kings at Denmark Hill is seriously experienced with Knife trauma cases - hopefully this will prove of benefit if the stories prove to be true


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## wiskey (Jun 4, 2017)

Kings is one of London's major trauma centres, the royal London is too.


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## Ms T (Jun 4, 2017)

Isn't Guys right next to London Bridge?


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## ouirdeaux (Jun 4, 2017)

This Twitter account was set up over 3 years ago but only just started tweeting, which makes me wonder if it might be more than the usual opportunistic idiot. Or am I overreacting?

Twitter / Account Suspended

Edit: well, that was that. I can do a screenshot.


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## David Clapson (Jun 4, 2017)

Three incidents all at the same time?? Three terrorists with coordinated attacks? I hope it's not true...it would be upping the ante enormously.


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## not-bono-ever (Jun 4, 2017)

Ms T said:


> Isn't Guys right next to London Bridge?



Yes, but I think St Thomases is the main A&E- only a mile away


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## peterkro (Jun 4, 2017)

Ms T said:


> Isn't Guys right next to London Bridge?


Yes it is but it doesn't have an ED.As someone above commented Kings is a worldwide centre for expertise at knife wounds as the RoyalFree in Belfast is with knee injuries.
(Tommys is the closest with an Ed)


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## DaveCinzano (Jun 4, 2017)

Eyewitness account from the BBC live blog from about 20 minutes ago:

*Attacker stabbing people with long knife - eyewitness*
Posted at 0:19


A security guard who oversees a number of pubs in the area has told the BBC he saw four people stabbed by three attackers.

The man, who was deeply shocked and asked not to be named, said he was at the Market Porter pub when a colleague at another bar said there was a stabbing at the Borough Bistro pub nearby.

He said he went towards this pub and saw that "everybody started running" and there was screaming.

The eyewitness added that he saw three attackers, one of whom had a long knife and stabbing people, including a girl in her early 20s.

Latest updates: London incidents - BBC News


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## Johnny Vodka (Jun 4, 2017)

David Clapson said:


> Three incidents all at the same time?? Three terrorists with coordinated attacks? I hope it's not true...it would be upping the ante enormously.



It's not like it's unheard of so far as a tactic, though not previously in the UK?  I know it'll be the least of those affected's worries, but it could really swing some people to Ukip/Tories in the election.   You just hope people can be strong, wait for the facts and think rationally.


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## Plumdaff (Jun 4, 2017)

Ms T said:


> Isn't Guys right next to London Bridge?



There's only a minor injuries unit at Guy's, wiskey is right, more severely injured will go to King's and the London, sounds like they've set up a centre and Liverpool St for others, possibly because of issues with the cordons at London Bridge and Vauxhall hindering  getting people to St Thomas'


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## not-bono-ever (Jun 4, 2017)

ah the fukcing wankers, the fucking vindictive twats


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## David Clapson (Jun 4, 2017)

Going to be a long night. A&Es will already be at full stretch with the Saturday night crowd.


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## ouirdeaux (Jun 4, 2017)

Vauxhall appears to be a false alarm.


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## marty21 (Jun 4, 2017)

Plumdaff said:


> There's only a minor injuries unit at Guy's, wiskey is right, more severely injured will go to King's and the London, sounds like they've set up a centre and Liverpool St for others, possibly because of issues with the cordons at London Bridge and Vauxhall hindering  getting people to St Thomas'



Liverpool St is fairly close , 5-10 minute drive. They are using a hotel apparently.


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## hippogriff (Jun 4, 2017)

*Metropolitan Police*‏Verified account @metpoliceuk 2m2 minutes ago
Replying to @metpoliceuk
The incident at #Vauxhall is a stabbing and is not connect to the incidents at #LondonBridge & #BoroughMarket

2 replies493 retweets157 likes




*Metropolitan Police*‏Verified account @metpoliceuk 3m3 minutes ago
At 0025hrs 4/6/17 the incidents at #LondonBridge & #BoroughMarket were declared as terrorist incidents.


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## gawkrodger (Jun 4, 2017)

Met Police twitter confirming London Bridge and Borough Market terrorist attacks, Victoria an unrelated stabbing


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## David Clapson (Jun 4, 2017)

Johnny Vodka said:


> could really swing some people to Ukip/Tories in the election.   You just hope people can be strong, wait for the facts and think rationally.



Could swing the other way if it turns out to be more blowback from Cameron's intervention in Libya. People aren't stupid.  They know how foreign policy led to 9/11, 7/7, Manchester etc.


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## Plumdaff (Jun 4, 2017)

marty21 said:


> Liverpool St is fairly close , 5-10 minute drive. They are using a hotel apparently.


Sounds like they're also using lifeboats to evacuate and possibly get people safely to Tommy's.


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## rutabowa (Jun 4, 2017)

London Bridge and borough market are pretty much the same place. So this is 1 incident, not 3.


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## peterkro (Jun 4, 2017)

Plumdaff said:


> Sounds like they're also using lifeboats to evacuate and possibly get people safely to Tommy's.


My flat overlooks the river and I've seen a couple of police launches but no boats from the RNLI have gone up or down the river.


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## DaveCinzano (Jun 4, 2017)

Tweets (including from a _Times_ journalist who witnessed police detaining/searching someone, and who interviewed a witness from Tapas Brindisa) from past 1-2 hours, but offering more specific details about police gunshots in the area of the Southwark Tavern:


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## Johnny Vodka (Jun 4, 2017)

David Clapson said:


> Could swing the other way if it turns out to be more blowback from Cameron's intervention in Libya. People aren't stupid.  They know how foreign policy led to 9/11, 7/7, Manchester etc.



Tories are still in the lead.  I think there are more reactionary than 'thoughtful/considered' types.  (Did you see JC being quizzed about nukes on QT last night?) Just really sad all round.  Both 'terrorists' and 'right wing' types hell bent on driving wedges between people and fucking up society.


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## David Clapson (Jun 4, 2017)

Maybe it's just one guy - i.e. the van driver - hitting people on the bridge then running into the market with a knife.


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## DaveCinzano (Jun 4, 2017)

Plumdaff said:


> Sounds like they're also using lifeboats to evacuate and possibly get people safely to Tommy's.





peterkro said:


> My flat overlooks the river and I've seen a couple of police launches but no boats from the RNLI have gone up or down the river.



From MPS Marine Policing Unit c.0020:


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## peterkro (Jun 4, 2017)

DaveCinzano said:


> From MPS Marine Policing Unit c.0020:



That's odd they must be from the station further east as I'm overlooking the river and no RNLI boats have gone down from the Waterloo centre nor have any come up the river towards Tommys. Guess they are helping but haven't come in this direction yet.(it's easy to see there is virtually no traffic on the river at the moment)


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## YouSir (Jun 4, 2017)

If anyone has definite facts about casualties or anything could they post them? Getting a bit lost in the flood of news.


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## rutabowa (Jun 4, 2017)

David Clapson said:


> Maybe it's just one guy - i.e. the van driver - hitting people on the bridge then running into the market with a knife.


Most reports say 3 people in the van running in to the market... but yes London Bridge and borough being the same 3 people


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## Johnny Vodka (Jun 4, 2017)

David Clapson said:


> Maybe it's just one guy - i.e. the van driver - hitting people on the bridge then running into the market with a knife.



News seems to talking about a few guys with knives jumping out a van.


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## RD2003 (Jun 4, 2017)

Reports say that Allah was mentionerd by the apparent attackers. But it's obviously nothing to do with Islam.


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## YouSir (Jun 4, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> Reports say that Allah was mentionerd by the apparent attackers. But it's obviously nothing to do with Islam.



Fuck off.


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## RD2003 (Jun 4, 2017)

You too.


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## T & P (Jun 4, 2017)

Some newspapers are always ahead of others in reporting 'facts' and casualties. It's all conjecture of course though IME one it's been generally accepted there is a terrorist event in progress, the media reporting the facts/ figures in advance usually gets proven right eventually. With that in mind, the Mail is reporting at least 7 dead and two of the three attackers now dead too.


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## Ms T (Jun 4, 2017)

5live now have a proper BBC reporter who's putting everything in context, and explaining that Borough Market and London Bridge are next to each other. He also says he talked to a security guard who said one of the men had "canisters" strapped to his chest.


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## not-bono-ever (Jun 4, 2017)

you know, I have been looking into defensive architecture in London of late - and I commute across LB most days- i have actually considered a coupel of times about how open it is and how many people use it/ how any film of Londons always has a default LB slo mo commuter shot- they did get rid of the barrier rails a couple of years ago.


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## YouSir (Jun 4, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> You too.



Snappy comeback. Seriously though, take your bullshit agenda and get to fuck, no one needs you trying to pounce on this as a soapbox for your twattery.


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## YouSir (Jun 4, 2017)

Vauxhall stabbing not related to other incidents - So say the BBC.


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## tim (Jun 4, 2017)

ouirdeaux said:


> Vauxhall appears to be a false alarm.



Well some poor soul stabbed, so not really a "false" alarm, but rather a socially more acceptable form of violence. Some journalist on Five Live just described it as "normal for a Saturday night."


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## RD2003 (Jun 4, 2017)

YouSir said:


> Snappy comeback. Seriously though, take your bullshit agenda and get to fuck, no one needs you trying to pounce on this as a soapbox for your twattery.


The only agenda I might have is no to get into debate with the self-deluded.


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## tim (Jun 4, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> Reports say that Allah was mentionerd by the apparent attackers. But it's obviously nothing to do with Islam.


Cunt


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## YouSir (Jun 4, 2017)

tim said:


> Well some poor soul stabbed, so not really a "false" alarm, but rather a socially more acceptable form of violence. Some journalist on Five Live just described it as "normal for a Saturday night."



Aye, always gets me when stuff like this happens. London has a problem with knife and gun crime, people die all the time and for the most part it doesn't even make the South London Press, never mind mainstream media. Not that that makes shit like this any less horrific, but a hell of a lot of stuff is ignored either way.


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## Smoking kills (Jun 4, 2017)

David Clapson said:


> Three incidents all at the same time?? Three terrorists with coordinated attacks? I hope it's not true...it would be upping the ante enormously.


No, it wouldn't. Bombay and  Paris have survived squad taqfiri assaults. London and N.Y. too.


----------



## YouSir (Jun 4, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> The only agenda I might have is no to get into debate with the self-deluded.



Fortunately I've no such qualms about calling out cunts.


----------



## RD2003 (Jun 4, 2017)

tim said:


> Cunt


What, so reports don't say that Allah was mentioned?


----------



## RD2003 (Jun 4, 2017)

YouSir said:


> Fortunately I've no such qualms about calling out cunts.


Fine.


----------



## tim (Jun 4, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> What, so reports don't say that Allah was mentioned?


Cunt


----------



## David Clapson (Jun 4, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> What, so reports don't say that Allah was mentioned?


Allah, God, call it what you like. The Abrahamic religions share one god. And each religion has followers as ignorant as you.


----------



## RD2003 (Jun 4, 2017)

tim said:


> Cunt


Devastating. And don't think you're talking to some far-right cunt here.


----------



## YouSir (Jun 4, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> Devastating. And don't think you're talking to some far-right cunt here.



Just a common or garden cunt then?


----------



## RD2003 (Jun 4, 2017)

David Clapson said:


> Allah, God, call it what you like. The Abrahamic religions share one god. And each religion has followers as ignorant as you.


Maybe so. But none of this has anything whatsoever to do with Islam.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Jun 4, 2017)

Johnny Vodka said:


> Tories are still in the lead.  I think there are more reactionary than 'thoughtful/considered' types.  (Did you see JC being quizzed about nukes on QT last night?) Just really sad all round.  Both 'terrorists' and 'right wing' types hell bent on driving wedges between people and fucking up society.




Stated goal of ISIS is to polarise.This needs to be referenced a great deal

Islamic State’s Goal: “Eliminating the Grayzone” of Coexistence Between Muslims and the West

It's especially about making (for want of better words) "moderate/secular/westernised" muslims feel isolated, suspected, so as to turn them inward and thus make them better subjects for radicalisation.

As such, it needs to be hammered home constantly that the right wing haters may as well be on the ISIS payroll, but are actually dumb enough to do the spadework of terror for nowt.


----------



## RD2003 (Jun 4, 2017)

YouSir said:


> Just a common or garden cunt then?


Definitely common or garden cunt. But a left-wing common or garden cunt.


----------



## Calamity1971 (Jun 4, 2017)

Who said you were a far right cunt? You are just a thick cunt whatever your politics. 


RD2003 said:


> Devastating. And don't think you're talking to some far-right cunt here.


----------



## YouSir (Jun 4, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> Definitely common or garden cunt. But a left-wing common or garden cunt.



So fucking what? You want a gold star or something?


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Jun 4, 2017)

If Islamic terror and extremism are such a big problem (Wahhab, Takfiri, Salafi obvs), then it should for once be high on the national agenda that arming islamic extremists and encouraging islamic terrorists isn't actually that good an idea. We shall see.


----------



## RD2003 (Jun 4, 2017)

YouSir said:


> So fucking what? You want a gold star or something?


Yes, gold star please. I'll put it on the chart on my bedroom wall.


----------



## YouSir (Jun 4, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> Yes, gold star please. I'll put it on the chart on my bedroom wall.



Something to reflect on while you think about your nonsense behaviour.


----------



## RD2003 (Jun 4, 2017)

Calamity1971 said:


> Who said you were a far right cunt? You are just a thick cunt whatever your politics.


So you think I'm thick. Good. Maybe I am. But none of what's happening has anything to do with Islam.


----------



## YouSir (Jun 4, 2017)

20 'walking wounded' at Liverpool Street. Been moved on now but gives an idea of scale I suppose. BBC figure.


----------



## Johnny Vodka (Jun 4, 2017)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Stated goal of ISIS is to polarise.This needs to be referenced a great deal
> 
> Islamic State’s Goal: “Eliminating the Grayzone” of Coexistence Between Muslims and the West
> 
> ...



I just feel so sorry for the majority of muslims, who are decent people.  My sister's bf is Irish and came over here during 'the troubles' and has told me how paranoid he felt getting on buses, asking for a ticket with his accent then people staring, etc.  We need to be very considered (and strong) as a society and as human beings as to how we react.


----------



## YouSir (Jun 4, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> So yu think I'm thick. Good. Maybe I am. But none of what's happening has anything to do with Islam.



Everyone thinks you're thick. If only because you think this thread is the time and place for your nonsense.


----------



## Calamity1971 (Jun 4, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> Yes, gold star please. I'll put it on the chart on my bedroom wall.


Cunt/knobheaderry chart? Bet it's bling.


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Jun 4, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> Maybe so. But none of this has anything whatsoever to do with Islam.



Of course it is, it's to do with cunts taking bits of it out of context and thinking it gives them a greenlight to massacre people on a night out. Dunno why you're going down this route though? I mean obviously if this is is how Islam is supposed to be practiced we'd all be dead by now because there's a billion Muslims in the world at least and it's a bit tricky to stop a billion strong fanatical religious army. Surely you're not this thick, are you?


----------



## RD2003 (Jun 4, 2017)

YouSir said:


> Something to reflect on while you think about your nonsense behaviour.


There is no 'behaviour' going on here, apart from what you're also engaged in.


----------



## YouSir (Jun 4, 2017)

Some attackers dead, explosions at Borough. Both reports from journos so take them as unconfirmed.

e2a: I mean journalists posting/commenting personally, not through outlets.


----------



## YouSir (Jun 4, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> There is no 'behaviour' going on here, apart from what you're also engaged in.



Keep telling yourself that mate, we're all just as bad as you are so it's ok to keep going.


----------



## Ming (Jun 4, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> Yes, gold star please. I'll put it on the chart on my bedroom wall.


The stated goal of the Islamic extremists is to polarize. So by pointing out 'Islam' you're doing their work. It's like saying people who bomb abortion clinics represent Christianity in total rather than a microscopic fringe element.


----------



## RD2003 (Jun 4, 2017)

Calamity1971 said:


> Cunt/knobheaderry chart? Bet it's bling.


It might look good. On the other hand it may prove disappointing.

But maybe we should stop derailing a serious thread and concentrate on whether people who do this kind of stuff are or aren't anything to do with Islam. Because being from a Muslim background or 'reverting' to Islam and then carrying out some kind of atrocity-while saying it's in the name of Islam-may not actually be anything to do with Isam.


----------



## ohmyliver (Jun 4, 2017)

Can we all just ignore him/her/it now and keep the thread for news. Please.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Jun 4, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> So you think I'm thick. Good. Maybe I am. But none of what's happening has anything to do with Islam.



It has a lot to do with a small sect of Islam which has been actively supported by the UK for a long time.


----------



## RD2003 (Jun 4, 2017)

YouSir said:


> Keep telling yourself that mate, we're all just as bad as you are so it's ok to keep going.


Don't people these days say something like 'Oh please' in these instances?


----------



## RD2003 (Jun 4, 2017)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> It has a lot to do with a small sect of Islam which has been actively supported by the UK for a long time.


Yes. Maybe they're nothing to do with islam.


----------



## Calamity1971 (Jun 4, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> It might look good. On the other hand it may prove disappointing.
> 
> But maybe we should stop derailing a serious thread and concentrate on whether people who do this kind of stuff are or aren't anything to do with Islam. Because being from a Muslim background or 'reverting' to Islam and then carrying out some kind of atrocity-while saying it's in the name of Islam-may not actually be anything to do with Isam.


We?


----------



## ddraig (Jun 4, 2017)

pic from Gabriele Sciotto showing man on floor by pub in borough market possibly taken out

was on bbc news a min ago


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Jun 4, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> Yes. Maybe they're nothing to do with islam.



Turn it in now will ya? Ffs.


----------



## YouSir (Jun 4, 2017)

ddraig said:


> pic from Gabriele Sciotto showing man on floor by pub in borough market possibly taken out
> 
> was on bbc news a min ago



Got a link?


----------



## Corax (Jun 4, 2017)

Reports of three 'controlled explosions' heard at the scene.  How people know that they're controlled I have no idea.


----------



## ddraig (Jun 4, 2017)

YouSir said:


> Got a link?


just this, will be on again as "new" news
Latest updates: London attack - BBC News


----------



## YouSir (Jun 4, 2017)

Corax said:


> Reports of three 'controlled explosions' heard at the scene.  How people know that they're controlled I have no idea.



Who said they were? Only say the BBC quoting a Telegraph journo saying he'd heard them, nothing more.


----------



## RD2003 (Jun 4, 2017)

Ming said:


> The stated goal of the Islamic extremists is to polarize. So by pointing out 'Islam' you're doing their work. It's like saying people who bomb abortion clinics represent Christianity in total rather than a microscopic fringe element.


Fair point. But I'm talking about those who try to reinforce what you're saying by trying to claim that this kind of thing has nothing to do with Islam at all. When obviously it does.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 4, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> Fair point. But I'm talking about those who try to reinforce what you're saying by trying to claim that this kind of thing has nothing to do with Islam at all. When obviously it does.



You've repeated the same thing several times now. Just start another thread of you want that conversation. This one isn't the place.


----------



## ddraig (Jun 4, 2017)

pic on that link again
what looks like canisters on body


----------



## Corax (Jun 4, 2017)

YouSir said:


> Who said they were? Only say the BBC quoting a Telegraph journo saying he'd heard them, nothing more.


A couple of 'ear-witnesses' on twitter.


----------



## RD2003 (Jun 4, 2017)

YouSir said:


> Everyone thinks you're thick. If only because you think this thread is the time and place for your nonsense.


Ok. This obviously has nothing to do with Islam.


----------



## YouSir (Jun 4, 2017)

Jasus, think I actually recognise some of the people walking on the BBC report there - know a few people who work around there. Was also in one of the pubs pictured yesterday, and in the market itself.


----------



## YouSir (Jun 4, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> Ok. This obviously has nothing to do with Islam.



Quick, call the BBC, maybe they'd like to add your wisdom to their live news feed.


----------



## Sea Star (Jun 4, 2017)

Friend of mine arrived at London Bridge as it was kicking off and was sent back. she's safe thankfully. 

Thinking about last night though - three of us were out and about in this area, pissed up and not really thinking about personal safety. This has really hit home as it is the one place in central London I've considered my personal playground for about 15 years now. Not sure I'll ever feel quite the same about this area again.


----------



## RD2003 (Jun 4, 2017)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> You've repeated the same thing several times now. Just start another thread of you want that conversation. This one isn't the place.


Ok.


Doctor Carrot said:


> Of course it is, it's to do with cunts taking bits of it out of context and thinking it gives them a greenlight to massacre people on a night out. Dunno why you're going down this route though? I mean obviously if this is is how Islam is supposed to be practiced we'd all be dead by now because there's a billion Muslims in the world at least and it's a bit tricky to stop a billion strong fanatical religious army. Surely you're not this thick, are you?


Please take your liberal handwringing to somebody who is as deluded as you.


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Jun 4, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> Ok.
> 
> Please take your liberal handwringing to somebody who is as deluded as you.



Oh just fuck off you ignorant cuntsock.


----------



## YouSir (Jun 4, 2017)

AuntiStella said:


> Friend of mine arrived at London Bridge as it was kicking off and was sent back. she's safe thankfully.
> 
> Thinking about last night though - three of us were out and about in this area, pissed up and not really thinking about personal safety. This has really hit home as it is the one place in central London I've considered my personal playground for about 15 years now. Not sure I'll ever feel quite the same about this area again.



Fuck that, not my favourite area but it's still yours/ours as much as it ever was. A handful of wankers don't take that away and you shouldn't let them effect the way you live.


----------



## RD2003 (Jun 4, 2017)

YouSir said:


> Quick, call the BBC, maybe they'd like to add your wisdom to their live news feed.


They wouldnt. I have no wisdom to offer. Neither have you.


----------



## YouSir (Jun 4, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> Ok.
> 
> Please take your liberal handwringing to somebody who is as deluded as you.



Yes, that's exactly what it is. Not irritation at you trying to suborn a thread to your own little hobby horse in the middle of a major incident which has happened in a place a lot of us know well, live near or spend time in.


----------



## RD2003 (Jun 4, 2017)

Doctor Carrot said:


> Oh just fuck off you ignorant cuntsock.


I've lost count of the number of your kind I've had to deal with over the years.

I still sort of like you all, though.


----------



## ice-is-forming (Jun 4, 2017)

i dont even live in the same hemisphere now but the sight of that police twitter advising to run triggered me and i'm in tears now. much love to london. I'm dreaming of your hurt


----------



## YouSir (Jun 4, 2017)

Helicopters and police swarming around the area, unsurprisingly. Locals I know talking about explosions too (controlled or not they've no way of knowing). Evidently still things happening though, or the fear of them happening.


----------



## Sea Star (Jun 4, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> Ok.
> 
> Please take your liberal handwringing to somebody who is as deluded as you.


please go away. I have no idea what you're trying to achieve, but this is not a place where your fuckwittery is going to be welcomed, or even tolerated.


----------



## Sea Star (Jun 4, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> They wouldnt. I have no wisdom to offer. Neither have you.


everyone that tells you to shut the fuck up has wisdom to offer. You should listen.


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Jun 4, 2017)

YouSir said:


> Helicopters and police swarming around the area, unsurprisingly. Locals I know talking about explosions too (controlled or not they've no way of knowing). Evidently still things happening though, or the fear of them happening.


 
Police just confirmed controlled explosion according to LBC.


----------



## gawkrodger (Jun 4, 2017)

media reporting confirmation that the explosions are controlled explosions


----------



## YouSir (Jun 4, 2017)

Doctor Carrot said:


> Police just confirmed controlled explosion according to LBC.



Good to hear, I suppose. Better by far than uncontrolled ones.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Jun 4, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> Yes. Maybe they're nothing to do with islam.



The vast majority of their victims are muslims. Do you think the UK should arm and encourage violent Islamic extremists? Perhaps there is common ground here to chase down here, rather than repeating a deliberately myopic, rather petulant and virtually theology-free point...


----------



## RD2003 (Jun 4, 2017)

AuntiStella said:


> please go away. I have no idea what you're trying to achieve, but this is not a place where your fuckwittery is going to be welcomed, or even tolerated.


I'm not trying to achieve anything, other than stating the obvious. But clearly you are, so you might as well get on with it. I'm sure some worthwhile insights into what's going on are forthcoming.


----------



## YouSir (Jun 4, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> I'm not trying to achieve anything, other than stating the obvious. But clearly you are, so you might as well get on with it. I'm sure some worthwhile insights into what's going on are forthcoming.



That's good, you're certainly succeeding in achieving nothing so a night well spent.


----------



## RD2003 (Jun 4, 2017)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> The vast majority of their victims are muslims. Do you think the UK should arm and encourage violent Islamic extremists? Perhaps there is common ground here to chase down here, rather than repeating a deliberately myopic, rather petulant and virtually theology-free point...


Deffo theology-free. And how does the obvious fact that most of their victims are Muslim deflect from the fact that they are Muslim also, acting on their interpretation of Islam?


----------



## Sea Star (Jun 4, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> I'm sure some worthwhile insights into what's going on are forthcoming.


not from you, clearly. I'm here to see what others have to say and you're here why? ....  hmmmm?


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Jun 4, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> I've lost count of the number of your kind I've had to deal with over the years.
> 
> I still sort of like you all, though.



Who are you dealing with? How?

On the off chance that facts actually interest you, this vid contains some details of the widespread denouncements of Takfiri based terror from across the billions of muslims on the planet. 



All those muslims oppose it, but the British state supports it. Perhaps you need to dodge that issue, because at heart you could be an apologist for extremism your self, or it suits some other strange purpose for your politics.


----------



## RD2003 (Jun 4, 2017)

YouSir said:


> That's good, your certainly succeeding in achieving nothing so a night well spent.


Is your night well-spent trying to chase me down?


----------



## YouSir (Jun 4, 2017)

Nearest hospitals are on lockdown - wonder how others are reacting though? Does seem to have been focused on central but there are other targets around London too. No answer to that though I suppose.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 4, 2017)

What do they mean by 'lockdown'?


----------



## YouSir (Jun 4, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> Is your night well-spent trying to chase me down?



Oddly enough most of my attention is on the news feed and reposting anything that seems relevant to here. Give it a go, make yourself useful.


----------



## YouSir (Jun 4, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> What do they mean by 'lockdown'?



No idea, still functioning presumably, perhaps with police checks on entry. Comes from the Guy's Twitter account so not exactly an expansive source.


----------



## YouSir (Jun 4, 2017)

The Sun say seven killed. But it's The Sun, so who knows.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Jun 4, 2017)

I wonder if the attackers will turn out to be young men. It nearly always is. Perhaps if people challenge me for pointing it out, and raising the issue of masculinity and violence I could endlessly return and say..."yeah, but they are men aren't they?"

I wonder if this evenings troll is a young or young-ish man, and has some comment to make about his connection to these attacks if so.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Jun 4, 2017)

YouSir said:


> The Sun say seven killed. But it's The Sun, so who knows.



The more attackers killed from such a stat, hopefully the lower the number of people who matter.


----------



## RD2003 (Jun 4, 2017)

AuntiStella said:


> not from you, clearly. I'm here to see what others have to say and you're here....  hmmmm?


I might be here just for the likes of you, have you ever thought about that? On the other hand, I'm more than aware that I am, like you, wasting my time. Here we are, on the eve of our probable extinction (climate change, nuclear exchange etc etc etc), and we're debating whether people who kill others in the name of Islam actually have anythng to do with Islam. On a messageboard. And getting a bit indignant. As if it has an effect on something. 

Do sleep well. I will, hopefully, although sometimes I dont.


----------



## Ming (Jun 4, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> Fair point. But I'm talking about those who try to reinforce what you're saying by trying to claim that this kind of thing has nothing to do with Islam at all. When obviously it does.


I think its got more to do with oil and the West's presence in the Middle East because of that. If we were'nt there it wouldn't be an issue. Also Palestine. The world runs on fossil fuel so omelettes and eggs as far as Western policy makers are concerned.


----------



## YouSir (Jun 4, 2017)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> The more attackers killed from such a stat, hopefully the lower the number of people who matter.



It's from a Sun headline, not sure they'd count the attackers in the killed column at all to be honest.


----------



## Sea Star (Jun 4, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> I might be here just for the likes of you, have you ever thought about that? On the other hand, I'm more than aware that I am, like you, wasting my time. Here we are, on the eve of our probable extinction (climate change, nuclear exchange etc etc etc), and we're debating whether people who kill others in the name of Islam actually have anythng to do with Islam. On a messageboard. And getting a bit indignant. As if it has an effect on something.
> 
> Do sleep well. I will, hopefully, although sometimes I dont.


i read as far as "the likes of you". Says it all really.


----------



## RD2003 (Jun 4, 2017)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Who are you dealing with? How?
> 
> On the off chance that facts actually interest you, this vid contains some details of the widespread denouncements of Takfiri based terror from across the billions of muslims on the planet.
> 
> ...



Jesus Christ (sorry...) Has anybody said that most Muslims agree with these psychos?


----------



## Sea Star (Jun 4, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> What do they mean by 'lockdown'?


shut the doors and letting emergency cases in only.


----------



## RD2003 (Jun 4, 2017)

AuntiStella said:


> i read as far as "the likes of you". Says it all really.


Ok. Fine. I wish you well. Genuinely.


----------



## YouSir (Jun 4, 2017)

Trump keeping it classy, as ever.

Trump criticised for using London attacks to promote his own Muslim travel ban


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Jun 4, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> Jesus Christ (sorry...) Has anybody said that most Muslims agree with these psychos?



I don't think most men do either...but they probably are men aren't they?


----------



## RD2003 (Jun 4, 2017)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> I don't think most men do either...but they probably are men aren't they?


???


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jun 4, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> What do they mean by 'lockdown'?



No entry or leaving. Probably increased security onsite.


.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jun 4, 2017)

Also, fuck the morons on this thread.


.


----------



## MochaSoul (Jun 4, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> ???


Whoosh!


----------



## Sea Star (Jun 4, 2017)

.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Jun 4, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> ???



That's the 2nd time you've dodged an issue in a short space of time, but still think you get points for being sarcastic about other people doing so. Why not head off to Twitter where there's sure to be more people around or beneath your level that may actually be impressed?

Tatty-bye.


----------



## N_igma (Jun 4, 2017)

It's horryfing thinking that these sort of attacks don't need any forward planning just rogue wankers trying to cause as much hassle as possible. What they don't realise is that their efforts are futile. London is strong and London will rise again thoughts are with everyone involved.


----------



## RD2003 (Jun 4, 2017)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> That's the 2nd time you've dodged an issue in a short space of time, but still think you get points for being sarcastic about other people doing so. Why not head off to Twitter where there's sure to be more people around or beneath your level that may actually be impressed?
> 
> Tatty-bye.


Maybe prayers will do. There seems to be some  prominent people offering prayers tonight.
Prayers are bound to help.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jun 4, 2017)

Please stop making this all about you, for the love of god, chicken nuggets or Tom Waits, whatever. Have your argument somewhere else.


----------



## MochaSoul (Jun 4, 2017)

Last night I was in London on a vigil in Tooting. I took my son and a friend of his with me (we'd been to the "Liar, Liar" protest earlier. I'm feeling fortunate now. I hope Urban friends and their families are all ok. My thoughts are with the dead, the injured and the future victims of [anonymous or not] trolls as per the inconsiderate thread crasher here present, or worse, as per Portland vengeful killer of last week.


----------



## sheothebudworths (Jun 4, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> Maybe prayers will do. There seems to be some  prominent people offering prayers tonight.
> Prayers are bound to help.



Grow up.


----------



## RD2003 (Jun 4, 2017)

sheothebudworths said:


> Grow up.


OK, as you advise, I have decided to grow up, and have realised that the offer of prayers really will help. Just like prayers always do.


----------



## RD2003 (Jun 4, 2017)

MochaSoul said:


> Last night I was in London on a vigil in Tooting. I took my son and a friend of his with me (we'd been to the "Liar, Liar" protest earlier. I'm feeling fortunate now. I hope Urban friends and their families are all ok. My thoughts are with the dead, the injured and the future victims of [anonymous or not] trolls as per the inconsiderate thread crasher here present, or worse, as per Portland vengeful killer of last week.


Everybody's 'thoughts' (ie who might Arsenal sign, and will Corbyn pull off a shock or not?) are with the dead. The dead are comforted in knowing this.


----------



## B.I.G (Jun 4, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> Everybody's 'thoughts' (ie who might Arsenal sign, and will Corbyn pull off a shock or not?) are with the dead. The dead are comforted in knowing this.



Scum always have trouble sleeping. Standard.


----------



## RD2003 (Jun 4, 2017)

B.I.G said:


> Scum always have trouble sleeping. Standard.


Proud to be what you'd consider scum. Actually and all that.


----------



## hippogriff (Jun 4, 2017)

phone numbers now made available for those concerned about friends or relatives


*Metropolitan Police*‏Verified account @metpoliceuk 5m5 minutes ago
Casualty Bureau is not for general enquiries. Call 999 in an emergency only. #LondonBridge #BoroughMarket

3 replies80 retweets51 likes




*Metropolitan Police*‏Verified account @metpoliceuk 9m9 minutes ago
Casualty Bureau is now open on 0800 096 1233 & 020 7158 0197 #LondonBridge #BoroughMarket






13 replies543 retweets179 likes


----------



## ginger_syn (Jun 4, 2017)

Give it a rest Rd your post are a boring and tedious addition to this  thread so just stop, to do otherwise would be extremely petty and this is not the thread for it.


----------



## hippogriff (Jun 4, 2017)

ginger_syn said:


> Give it a rest Rd your post are a boring and tedious addition to this  thread so just stop, to do otherwise would be extremely petty and this is not the thread for it.



 Just put the twat on ignore


----------



## RD2003 (Jun 4, 2017)

hippogriff said:


> Just put the twat on ignore


Yes, all of you please put me on ignore.
Be 'respectful' and continue to pretend.


----------



## Dandred (Jun 4, 2017)

Another muslim fuckwitt?


----------



## ginger_syn (Jun 4, 2017)

I normally do just ignore, but he'd gone past the point of ridiculouse and had arrived at the point of irritation.


----------



## ginger_syn (Jun 4, 2017)

And he's also petty


----------



## RD2003 (Jun 4, 2017)

Maybe I'll wake up tomorrow to see that some  more bimbo pop stars and the like have 'offered' prayers for the victims. This might enable me
to go about my day in  a more relaxed way than if they hadn't.
Prayers and shit from manufactured pop stars and other assorted talent-free cunts: that's quite clearly what's needed in these circumstances.


----------



## ice-is-forming (Jun 4, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> Maybe I'll wake up tomorrow to see that some  more bimbo pop stars and the like have 'offered' prayers for the victims. This might enable me
> to go about my day in  a more relaxed way than if they hadn't.
> Prayers and shit from manufactured pop stars and other assorted talent-free cunts: that's quite clearly what's needed in these circumstances.



are you drunk?


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Jun 4, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> Prayers and shit from manufactured pop stars and other assorted talent-free cunts: that's quite clearly what's needed in these circumstances.



We can't all be as talented as you, obviously. Nor as cunt-like for that matter.


----------



## RD2003 (Jun 4, 2017)

ice-is-forming said:


> are you drunk?


Only a bit. But still sober enough to be comforted that pop stars that I might not even have heard of have 'offered' prayers during the night.

Let's have more prayers. They clearly help.


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## RD2003 (Jun 4, 2017)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> We can't all be as talented as you, obviously. Nor as cunt-like for that matter.


It's ok.


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## ruffneck23 (Jun 4, 2017)

I was literally in the area an hour before this with my dearest friends , its fucking scary but i suppose that's what terrorism is about. Although my biggest fear is this will turn into a civil war. Thanks for all those police cuts...


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## Mr.Bishie (Jun 4, 2017)

Six dead & over 30 injured according to AP.


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## Rimbaud (Jun 4, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> Maybe I'll wake up tomorrow to see that some  more bimbo pop stars and the like have 'offered' prayers for the victims. This might enable me
> to go about my day in  a more relaxed way than if they hadn't.
> Prayers and shit from manufactured pop stars and other assorted talent-free cunts: that's quite clearly what's needed in these circumstances.



"Bimbo pop stars"? Leave the misogyny out, this comment is especially inappropriate after the Manchester bombing, directed at fans of someone the attacker probably also regarded as a "bimbo pop star."

People talk about prayers and stuff as a way of offering sympathy and support, no need to be such a dick about it, I don't understand why it bothers you so much.


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## TheHoodedClaw (Jun 4, 2017)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Six dead & over 30 injured according to AP.



Three attackers shot and killed by armed police. At least one of the attackers was wearing a fake explosive vest.


----------



## YouSir (Jun 4, 2017)

Rimbaud said:


> "Bimbo pop stars"? Leave the misogyny out, this comment is especially inappropriate after the Manchester bombing, directed at fans of someone the attacker probably also regarded as a "bimbo pop star."
> 
> People talk about prayers and stuff as a way of offering sympathy and support, no need to be such a dick about it, I don't understand why it bothers you so much.



A pointless need to be edgy.


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## gentlegreen (Jun 4, 2017)

A shame we can't catch some of these bastards alive - we're giving them what they want.


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## mystic pyjamas (Jun 4, 2017)

gentlegreen said:


> A shame we can't catch some of these bastards alive - we're giving them what they want.


But that would deprive them of the best of wines and 72 virgins.


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## ElizabethofYork (Jun 4, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> Only a bit. But still sober enough to be comforted that pop stars that I might not even have heard of have 'offered' prayers during the night.
> 
> Let's have more prayers. They clearly help.




Piss off.


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## bubblesmcgrath (Jun 4, 2017)

I don't know what to say..
This is awful...


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## Pac man (Jun 4, 2017)

mystic pyjamas said:


> But that would deprive them of the best of wines and 72 virgins.



Thats a very disproportionate male to female ratio.


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## Poi E (Jun 4, 2017)

Message for terrorists from a Londoner


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## cyril_smear (Jun 4, 2017)

Lord Camomile said:


> "round her", not to avoid her. She could have just been incredibly lucky.
> 
> It's horrible to hope something is just an accident, but the police responses make it hard to think it was at this stage.



She was an extremly lucky person. 

I woke up and forgot I'd had the bbc on last night, confirmed it was terror related ffs.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 4, 2017)

mystic pyjamas said:


> But that would deprive them of the best of wines and 72 virgins.



The Manchester twat went to heaven the same day as Roger Moore, unlucky Islamaloon.


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## cyril_smear (Jun 4, 2017)

mystic pyjamas said:


> But that would deprive them of the best of wines and 72 virgins.



I'd rather see them suffer for the rest of their lives in prison.


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## kenny g (Jun 4, 2017)

at 2:26 has some very useful advice.

  uk advice


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## tim (Jun 4, 2017)

gentlegreen said:


> A shame we can't catch some of these bastards alive - we're giving them what they want.



And what would you give them?  Whatever it would be it's probably best that you are not in a position of power. If they had been caught, they would have been tried, and if found guilty gaoled. 

What we need is not macho vindictiveness, but more effort put into identifying those who might be drawn to taking  recourse to this kind of violence, and creating strategies to counsel and support them. We also need to look at the socio-economic, cultural and political situation that engender such anger that people are willing to destroys their own lives and the lives of others. 

This goes equally for those involved in the gang violence that bedevils London too, remember eleven other young people have been stabbed to death this year in London. Most of those responsible will be caught and then spend years festering in gaol.


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## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

gentlegreen said:


> A shame we can't catch some of these bastards alive - we're giving them what they want.


You mean you want someone else to do something to them for you


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## gentlegreen (Jun 4, 2017)

I want them to be in prison as a reminder to others who might try how stupid they are.
In the public eye as it were.
They're fucktards.


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## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

gentlegreen said:


> I want them to be in prison as a reminder to others who might try how stupid they are.
> In the public eye as it were.
> They're fucktards.


Not sure you've really thought this through as so many of these people have already been in prison. Do you really think they go oh noes not Belmarsh?


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## bmd (Jun 4, 2017)

Thing is, people being punished more severely or in more inventive ways probably just makes this more attractive to people who wish to martyr themselves. We need to get between the people who groom and the groomed and to do that we need to talk to each other. For that to happen we need to stop all the racist bullshit that's in the media every day. Depressingly enough, I can't see a future where that happens.


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## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

bmd said:


> Thing is, people being punished more severely or in more inventive ways probably just makes this more attractive to people who wish to martyr themselves. We need to get between the people who groom and the groomed and to do that we need to talk to each other. For that to happen we need to stop all the racist bullshit that's in the media every day. Depressingly enough, I can't see a future where that happens.


Jail racist journalists perhaps


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## bmd (Jun 4, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> Jail racist journalists perhaps



 

I think they have words for that.


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## weltweit (Jun 4, 2017)

It is the basic weapons used in this that bothers me. If the terrorists had been trying to build bombs there might have been a chance that their purchasing of bomb making materials might have raised the alarm among the security services and there could have been the chance their efforts could have been stopped before they took action. 

But all these people needed was a vehicle and some knives. There is no way to be able to monitor people getting those and actually most will have them as domestic items in their homes. So the counter terrorism forces could only thwart such an attack if they could have detected when these peoples mental states switched from dissatisfied to ready for action. 

Given the number of people of interest to the security services being in the tens of thousands it will be impossible to monitor all of them to detect such a change in mindset in a couple or three individuals. 

I suppose in the coming days we will learn the terrorists identities and whether they were persons of interest to the security services. We will probably see their associates rounded up for questioning. We might even see the threat level changed again. But how do the security forces protect us against a small number of extremists picking up a knife and getting into a vehicle to carry out such an attack?


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## Who PhD (Jun 4, 2017)

kenny g said:


> at 2:26 has some very useful advice.
> 
> uk advice



thanks, those alarming clips are really apposite right now.


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## cyril_smear (Jun 4, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> Not sure you've really thought this through as so many of these people have already been in prison. Do you really think they go oh noes not Belmarsh?



If you know you're never getting out of prison, never going to the shops again, never getting out of bed when you want, never having sex again etc. etc. then ye, bit shit.


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## Ms T (Jun 4, 2017)

8 minutes between the first 999 call and the police shooting the attackers dead. Pretty impressive response.


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## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

cyril_smear said:


> If you know you're never getting out of prison, never going to the shops again, never getting out of bed when you want, never having sex again etc. etc. then ye, bit shit.


And where has this previously worked?


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## cyril_smear (Jun 4, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> And where has this previously worked?



Well, it would give me satisfaction knowing that the people who did stuff like this were in that situation.


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## weltweit (Jun 4, 2017)

Ms T said:


> 8 minutes between the first 999 call and the police shooting the attackers dead. Pretty impressive response.


Shame in a way that they didn't just shoot them in the legs and we could have had a trial.


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## brogdale (Jun 4, 2017)

What time today do we get the announcement that these cunts were "known to the authorities"/"persons of interest"/"reported to the security services"/'freedom fighter frequent flyers?


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## kenny g (Jun 4, 2017)

Who PhD said:


> thanks, those alarming clips are really apposite right now.


 I thought they were quite useful and have shared with my family. Stay safe.


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## bmd (Jun 4, 2017)

weltweit said:


> It is the basic weapons used in this that bothers me. If the terrorists had been trying to build bombs there might have been a chance that their purchasing of bomb making materials might have raised the alarm among the security services and there could have been the chance their efforts could have been stopped before they took action.
> 
> But all these people needed was a vehicle and some knives. There is no way to be able to monitor people getting those and actually most will have them as domestic items in their homes. So the counter terrorism forces could only thwart such an attack if they could have detected when these peoples mental states switched from dissatisfied to ready for action.
> 
> ...



Apart from the victims of these attacks, the people who suffer most are those who are the target of racist attacks every time something like this happens. So these attacks are not just horrific in their outcomes for the attacked but they also help the attackers to drive that wedge deeper between their ideals and those of people who just wish to live in peace. They isolate some and draw others towards them and we seem unable to get in front of this awful mess.


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## PursuedByBears (Jun 4, 2017)

weltweit said:


> It is the basic weapons used in this that bothers me. If the terrorists had been trying to build bombs there might have been a chance that their purchasing of bomb making materials might have raised the alarm among the security services and there could have been the chance their efforts could have been stopped before they took action.
> 
> But all these people needed was a vehicle and some knives. There is no way to be able to monitor people getting those and actually most will have them as domestic items in their homes. So the counter terrorism forces could only thwart such an attack if they could have detected when these peoples mental states switched from dissatisfied to ready for action.
> 
> ...


They can't.


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## weltweit (Jun 4, 2017)

PursuedByBears said:


> They can't.


They can't what?


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## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

cyril_smear said:


> Well, it would give me satisfaction knowing that the people who did stuff like this were in that situation.


So it would do nothing to stop attacks but cheer you up.


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## weltweit (Jun 4, 2017)

bmd said:


> Apart from the victims of these attacks, the people who suffer most are those who are the target of racist attacks every time something like this happens. So these attacks are not just horrific in their outcomes for the attacked but they also help the attackers to drive that wedge deeper between their ideals and those of people who just wish to live in peace. They isolate some and draw others towards them and we seem unable to get in front of this awful mess.


Sure there will be some blowback in the form of more divisiveness but do you think that one more incident like this means there will be more of the same.


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## Geri (Jun 4, 2017)

David Clapson said:


> Could swing the other way if it turns out to be more blowback from Cameron's intervention in Libya. People aren't stupid.  They know how foreign policy led to 9/11, 7/7, Manchester etc.


 
Cameron's intervention in Libya? You mean the very limited UN mandated No Fly Zone put in place to stop civilians being slaughtered by Gaddafi?


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## PursuedByBears (Jun 4, 2017)

weltweit said:


> They can't what?


Protect us from those determined to carry out a low-tech attack.


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## bmd (Jun 4, 2017)

weltweit said:


> Sure there will be some blowback in the form of more divisiveness but do you think that one more incident like this means there will be more of the same.



Can you just clarify what you mean by more of the same?


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## Ms T (Jun 4, 2017)

weltweit said:


> They can't what?



Monitor them all/protect us. It's a numbers game. As I think the IRA once said, you have to be lucky all the time, we need to be lucky once.


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## Dogsauce (Jun 4, 2017)

weltweit said:


> Shame in a way that they didn't just shoot them in the legs and we could have had a trial.



The (reportedly fake) bomb belts made this not an option, presented a need for immediate incapacitation. I suspect that was a deliberate (and reasonably smart) tactic by the terrorists to guarantee their own martyrdom.


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## weltweit (Jun 4, 2017)

PursuedByBears said:


> Protect us from those determined to carry out a low-tech attack.


Nope, it does seem such attacks are impossible to protect against. 

Though I wonder what will come out in the coming days as to whether these perpetrators were known to the authorities and perhaps if members of their communities might have pre-warned the authorities of their increased levels of radicalisation.


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## brogdale (Jun 4, 2017)

Geri said:


> Cameron's intervention in Libya? You mean the very limited UN mandated No Fly Zone put in place to stop civilians being slaughtered by Gaddafi?


True, but Manchester revealed some of the Cameron administration's complicity in facilitating 'rebels' free movement between UK & Libya during/after Gaddafi's fall.


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## cyril_smear (Jun 4, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> So it would do nothing to stop attacks but cheer you up.



I think I've jumped in without reading the few posts preceding the one I quoted.

Yes it would cheer me up. As for as prevention/intervention goes, I'm not clued up enough to comment on things like that. I know what fuels the fire of why people are 'radicalised' but no idea on how to counter.

Unfortunately terrorism sells papers and makes news (edit) and as such outlets(such as the Sun) aren't going to change their sensational reporting methods any time soon.


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## weltweit (Jun 4, 2017)

bmd said:


> Can you just clarify what you mean by more of the same?


More low tech attacks is what I meant.


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## weltweit (Jun 4, 2017)

Dogsauce said:


> The (reportedly fake) bomb belts made this not an option, presented a need for immediate incapacitation. I suspect that was a deliberate (and reasonably smart) tactic by the terrorists to guarantee their own martyrdom.


Yes that is probably a good point.


----------



## existentialist (Jun 4, 2017)

weltweit said:


> Shame in a way that they didn't just shoot them in the legs and we could have had a trial.




That's Hollywood bollocks, and wrong on about 92 levels.


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## Geri (Jun 4, 2017)

brogdale said:


> True, but Manchester revealed some of the Cameron administration's complicity in facilitating 'rebels' free movement between UK & Libya during/after Gaddafi's fall.


 
I think there were failures afterwards which allowed space for extremists to operate, which doesn't mean the intervention itself was wrong.


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## bmd (Jun 4, 2017)

weltweit said:


> Sure there will be some blowback in the form of more divisiveness but do you think that one more incident like this means there will be more of the same.



I think these attacks take a lot of work. Grooming a person into believing that this action is justified doesn't happen overnight, for instance. I think that there will be a production line leading to events like these and that there will be many of those lines. I think that means that there is a momentum to these attacks. Does one attack help others to happen? I think it gives heart to the people who wish them to happen. I think it divides the rest of us when we need to bring everyone together.


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## Lancman (Jun 4, 2017)

weltweit said:


> Yes that is probably a good point.


Wearing either fake or real bombs would ensure their martyrdom. The question is why didn't they wear real ones ?


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## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

cyril_smear said:


> I think I've jumped in without reading the few posts preceding the one I quoted.
> 
> Yes it would cheer me up. As for as prevention/intervention goes, I'm not clued up enough to comment on things like that. I know what fuels the fire of why people are 'radicalised' but no idea on how to counter.
> 
> Unfortunately terrorism sells papers and makes news (edit) and as such outlets(such as the Sun) aren't going to change their sensational reporting methods any time soon.


Yeh. So you can't name me somewhere where jailing terrorists has ended a campaign of terrorism. Why create more martyrs simply to put a smirk on your face, feeding and housing them at great cost for many years and giving them a space within which to radicalise people?


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## JuanTwoThree (Jun 4, 2017)

Thank you everybody who was sending in what they'd gleaned from what ever news source they were using. It's useful if someone is following LBC, someone else Sky, another person the BBC. I got a better idea of what had happened than I did from the BBC breakfast, which is just asking people how they 'felt'. I trust you lot, for the most part, to stick to "LBC are saying" until a clearer idea can be got.

But please could the next time (if there is one) be just that? If you've got some axe to grind, or you're too pissed to be trusted with a keyboard then just don't join in. I suppose it's pointless to make this polite request.


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## Artaxerxes (Jun 4, 2017)

Lancman said:


> Wearing either a fake or real bombs would ensure their martyrdom. The question is why didn't they wear real ones ?




Because constructing real ones is very hard to do without raising red flags and getting you shut down by the fuzz before you can use them.


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## Mr Moose (Jun 4, 2017)

weltweit said:


> Shame in a way that they didn't just shoot them in the legs and we could have had a trial.



Why would we want a trial? There isn't anything to learn from these individuals. They would just insult their victims in court.

If attackers are captured we don't have capital punishment so that's what we would do, but person in suicide vest needs stopping with whatever force is required.


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## Dogsauce (Jun 4, 2017)

Lancman said:


> Wearing either fake or real bombs would ensure their martyrdom. The question is why didn't they wear real ones ?



Lacked the means/knowledge to build them, or decided the risk in doing so (of detection or accidental detonation) was too great. That and they didn't need to.


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## weltweit (Jun 4, 2017)

existentialist said:


> That's Hollywood bollocks, and wrong on about 92 levels.


Go on then existentialist, give me just the top 10 reasons why it is wrong.


----------



## bmd (Jun 4, 2017)

JuanTwoThree said:


> Thank you everybody who was sending in what they'd gleaned from what ever news source they were using. It's useful if someone is following LBC, someone else Sky, another person the BBC. I got a better idea of what had happened than I did from the BBC breakfast, which is just asking people how they 'felt'. I trust you lot, for the most part, to stick to "LBC are saying" until a clearer idea can be got.
> 
> But please could the next time (if there is one) be just that? If you've got some axe to grind, or you're too pissed to be trusted with a keyboard then just don't join in. I suppose it's pointless to make this polite request.



You're asking if there could be a thread specifically for people who might be directly affected by this? If so, you could start one. Just be clear with the title and ask people to respect it.


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## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

Mr Moose said:


> Why would we want a trial? There isn't anything to learn from these individuals. They would just insult their victims in court.
> 
> If attackers are captured we don't have capital punishment so that's what we would do, but person in suicide vest needs stopping with whatever force is required.


Er trials aren't for us to learn from but to determine guilt and on conviction punish.


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## Mr Moose (Jun 4, 2017)

brogdale said:


> What time today do we get the announcement that these cunts were "known to the authorities"/"persons of interest"/"reported to the security services"/'freedom fighter frequent flyers?



What actions would you support? It may be possible to take action against some 'subjects of interest' under existing laws, but maybe not all and maybe not all recent attackers.


----------



## Ms T (Jun 4, 2017)

weltweit said:


> Go on then existentialist, give me just the top 10 reasons why it is wrong.


They shoot to incapacitate, basically. Shooting people in the legs is too risky.


----------



## Mr Moose (Jun 4, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> Er trials aren't for us to learn from but to determine guilt and on conviction punish.



Ever the pedant. Weltweit is saying a trial would be preferable (for us, for wider society if you like). But guilt is not at issue here and a trial would have been unlikely to reveal something we didn't know, so all I'm saying is what happened, happened, nothing to regret.


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## cyril_smear (Jun 4, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh. So you can't name me somewhere where jailing terrorists has ended a campaign of terrorism. Why create more martyrs simply to put a smirk on your face, feeding and housing them at great cost for many years and giving them a space within which to radicalise people?



What's your option then?


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## brogdale (Jun 4, 2017)

Mr Moose said:


> What actions would you support? It may be possible to take action against some 'subjects of interest' under existing laws, but maybe not all and maybe not all recent attackers.


I am not someone who presumes to govern on the basis of claims that I am able to 'keep us safe' more effectively than the other guy. Ask them.


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## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

cyril_smear said:


> What's your option then?


Don't answer a question with a question


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## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

Mr Moose said:


> Ever the pedant. Weltweit is saying a trial would be preferable (for us, for wider society if you like). But guilt is not at issue here and a trial would have been unlikely to reveal something we didn't know, so all I'm saying is what happened, happened, nothing to regret.


Yeh cos security forces shooting people dead never radicalised anyone


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## cyril_smear (Jun 4, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> Don't answer a question with a question



Do you take umbrage at everything?


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## cyril_smear (Jun 4, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh cos security forces shooting people dead never radicalised anyone



So what's your option?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

cyril_smear said:


> Do you take umbrage at everything?


No

Next


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## Cid (Jun 4, 2017)

weltweit said:


> Go on then existentialist, give me just the top 10 reasons why it is wrong.



1. It's difficult to shoot people in the legs.
2. If you shoot at someone and miss you risk causing ricochets or having the bullet continue.
3. Legs and arms both include arteries, not really any such thing as 'shoot to wound'.

The main consideration I think is trying to disable the attacker as quickly as possible, with the lowest risk to the safety of people around them. Centre mass, the torso, is a large, slow-moving target. And it will bring someone down quickly...


----------



## Plumdaff (Jun 4, 2017)

.


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## JuanTwoThree (Jun 4, 2017)

bmd said:


> You're asking if there could be a thread specifically for people who might be directly affected by this? If so, you could start one. Just be clear with the title and ask people to respect it.



That's not what I was saying, though I agree that if there was a need for such a thread then it should probably be kept apart from the 'breaking news' one. What I'm asking is that these breaking news threads don't be derailed as much as this one was during the early morning. Anybody who had something to speculate or was looking for an argument, while everybody else was trying to get an idea of what was happening,  could also have started another thread.


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## bmd (Jun 4, 2017)

If you're shooting someone then you're probably hoping for their death. Unless you've loaded the nice bullets.


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## existentialist (Jun 4, 2017)

weltweit said:


> Go on then existentialist, give me just the top 10 reasons why it is wrong.


OK. 

If the situation is so desperate that you have to shoot someone, it is too desperate to hope that you can stop them by merely incapacitating them. 
Police are trained to aim for the torso, because it's a bigger target and the probability of incapacitation much greater than aiming for other, harder to hit, parts of the body. 
When you are shooting someone in a crowded area, stray rounds are a bit of a worry - aiming for someone's legs is a fine way to ensure a few rounds ricocheting around the show. 
Police intervening in these situations have one primary task - to neutralise the situation and prevent further harm/loss of life. While a secondary consideration might be preserving evidence and making arrests, that can't be a factor when they're faced with a shoot/don't shoot situation. 
Don't believe everything you see in the films. Winging someone with a carefully aimed pistol shot is difficult, and retakes awkward to organise in a real situation. 
What could possibly be the benefit of going to such lengths to get an attacker up before the beak? Although summary justice is not in itself a good thing to aim for, the advantages of getting a suspect into court (or interrogation) are unlikely to be so overwhelming that it would be worth putting so many at risk to try to secure it. Not to mention the platform and ongoing opportunities for mischief having their freedom fighters languishing in Belmarsh would present to ISIS.


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## Ms T (Jun 4, 2017)

Seven dead now according to the police. Not including the attackers.


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## Mr Moose (Jun 4, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh cos security forces shooting people dead never radicalised anyone



You've really jumped the shark this time. Explain your way out of that daftness.

This is your problem Pickmans. Stuff happens in the world and you just think 'how can I best promote the Pickmans brand today?'


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## weltweit (Jun 4, 2017)

Assuming wearing the fake bomb vests meant the attackers expected the police to shoot to kill rather than attempt to take the attackers prisoner makes this equivalent to a suicide attack.


----------



## Dogsauce (Jun 4, 2017)

Weren't there reports of the police taking someone away in cuffs? Was that unrelated or someone other than the terrorists kicking off, or just someone pulled in by mistake/as a caution?


----------



## emanymton (Jun 4, 2017)

Ms T said:


> 8 minutes between the first 999 call and the police shooting the attackers dead. Pretty impressive response.


If that's true. Then as much as I hate to admit it, all the state of emergency stuff, and having armed cops on every street corner might actually have paid off.


----------



## existentialist (Jun 4, 2017)

weltweit said:


> Assuming wearing the fake bomb vests meant the attackers expected the police to shoot to kill rather than attempt to take the attackers prisoner makes this equivalent to a suicide attack.


Well, as it turned out, it WAS a suicide attack, not "equivalent". But yes, wearing fake bomb belts pretty much guaranteed a lethal response.


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## maomao (Jun 4, 2017)

All in all it appears so far to be a bit of a victory for the armed police. 3 homicidal nutters on a rampage put down in eight minutes. It'll be a bit of a miracle if they killed the right three people of course.


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## The39thStep (Jun 4, 2017)

maomao said:


> All in all it appears so far to be a bit of a victory for the armed police. 3 homicidal nutters on a rampage put down in eight minutes. It'll be a bit of a miracle if they killed the right three people of course.


Is victory the right word here? They responded quickly and effectively in protecting the public from further harm.


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## maomao (Jun 4, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> Is victory the right word here? They responded quickly and effectively in protecting the public from further harm.


I'm struggling to think of a better word.


----------



## Cid (Jun 4, 2017)

emanymton said:


> If that's true. Then as much as I hate to admit it, all the state of emergency stuff, and having armed cops on every street corner might actually have paid off.



It's central London, I imagine there are always armed police on standby in the area. Afaik there weren't any on the scene at the time of the attack.

e2a: there was a nearby BTP officer who was one of the first responders, and was seriously injured.

(from Met tweets)


----------



## emanymton (Jun 4, 2017)

Cid said:


> It's central London, I imagine there are always armed police on standby in the area. Afaik there weren't any on the scene at the time of the attack.


Maybe, 8 minutes is bloddy quick though.


----------



## Dogsauce (Jun 4, 2017)

Not if you were there I imagine.


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## Cid (Jun 4, 2017)

emanymton said:


> Maybe, 8 minutes is bloddy quick though.



Right, but these seemed to have been dispatched as an armed response unit. I.e not the 'armed cops on every street corner'. Which manifestly didn't work, as the only cop who was near the scene was BTP and seriously injured.

I mean presumably there's a heightened alert level at the moment, but central London is at high risk of being a target at the best of times.


----------



## Cid (Jun 4, 2017)

There is also a police station on Borough high street.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 4, 2017)

Cid said:


> It's central London, I imagine there are always armed police on standby in the area. Afaik there weren't any on the scene at the time of the attack.
> 
> e2a: there was a nearby BTP officer who was one of the first responders, and was seriously injured.
> 
> (from Met tweets)



Now see the same thing on the streets of Harlow, Woking, Luton; places that are just as busy on a Saturday night but aren't crawling with armed cops.

Time and time again it does seem we have to be a little bit thankful that the bay guys over here are not quite as ruthlessly competent as those in Syria.


----------



## Mumbles274 (Jun 4, 2017)

emanymton said:


> Maybe, 8 minutes is ploddy quick though.


Fify


----------



## weltweit (Jun 4, 2017)

Dogsauce said:


> Weren't there reports of the police taking someone away in cuffs? Was that unrelated or someone other than the terrorists kicking off, or just someone pulled in by mistake/as a caution?


There was a third incident but it was made clear that it was unrelated to the terrorist attack, perhaps it was from that incident that someone was cuffed.


----------



## Dogsauce (Jun 4, 2017)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Now see the same thing on the streets of Harlow, Woking, Luton; places that are just as busy on a Saturday night but aren't crawling with armed cops.
> 
> Time and time again it does seem we have to be a little bit thankful that the bay guys over here are not quite as ruthlessly competent as those in Syria.



They rely on the big headlines that attacks on prominent/symbolic places generate, so it is considered tactic, also knowing the value of life in London is considered higher by the media than that in the provinces.

If they were just about generating fear, they'd create more blowing up a bus in Tewkesbury or a pub in Torquay, make everyone feel like a potential target. There's a sizeable amount of the population that feels they're never at risk from stuff like this because they don't go anywhere 'important'.


----------



## danny la rouge (Jun 4, 2017)

Dogsauce said:


> Weren't there reports of the police taking someone away in cuffs? Was that unrelated or someone other than the terrorists kicking off, or just someone pulled in by mistake/as a caution?


There were a lot of confusing reports last night. Someone of these will have been unreliable. Some, just because in a frightening situation it's easy to misunderstand and misinterpret, and others because the social media is full of twats. 

It might also be that for operational reasons, some information is not being released. That could be so that possible associates don't know what the police know. 

For all those reasons it's probably not possible to piece together what was what.

But let's hope the cops have all the information they need.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jun 4, 2017)

Dogsauce said:


> Weren't there reports of the police taking someone away in cuffs? Was that unrelated or someone other than the terrorists kicking off, or just someone pulled in by mistake/as a caution?



Could easily have been unrelated, I reckon a fair few people get put in cuffs in central London on a normal Saturday night.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jun 4, 2017)

There are reports and eye witness accounts of people fighting back with chairs, bottles and glasses being thrown at the jihadis. Taxi drivers trying to run them over.

Very very brave actions in terrifying circumstances.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

Mr Moose said:


> You've really jumped the shark this time. Explain your way out of that daftness.
> 
> This is your problem Pickmans. Stuff happens in the world and you just think 'how can I best promote the Pickmans brand today?'


it shouldn't be a controversial point that when the army or police - what we call the security forces - shoot people dead, it has on occasion radicalised people. for example, and i thought you might have heard of this one, when the paras killed 13 people on bloody sunday in derry, it radicalised a lot of people. while neither you nor i might miss the people shot yesterday, there is no guarantee that their deaths might not go some way towards radicalising other people. often people dismiss attacks resulting in the assailants' deaths as merely after a swift trip to the 72 virgins. i suggest that there is another reason why jihadis launch suicide attacks, and that is to set an example for others to follow. perhaps if you reply you might rise above your puerile descent to ad hominems. but i doubt it.


----------



## cyril_smear (Jun 4, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> people. for example, and i thought you might have heard of this one, when the paras killed 13 people on bloody sunday in derry, it radicalised a lot of people. .




It only took you two hours of posting to get there.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jun 4, 2017)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Time and time again it does seem we have to be a little bit thankful that the bay guys over here are not quite as ruthlessly competent as those in Syria.



Indeed. The attacks themselves are not sophisticated operations, which means that the limiting factor that keeps this stuff mercifully rare is the availability of pathetic little twats wanting to carry them out, and the persuasive powers of those putting them up to it.

It is to be hoped that we can collectively respond to these events in such a way that shows other potential attackers that there would be no glory, no victory in their actions or their deaths. The divisions they seek to create must be entirely unforthcoming. Running the EDL out of town, as the good folk of Liverpool did only yesterday, may be as important for preventing terrorist attacks as any number of prevent seminars or armed police.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

cyril_smear said:


> It only took you two hours of posting to get there.


perhaps you could elaborate so i can see whether there is a point trying to get out.


----------



## D'wards (Jun 4, 2017)

What can be done about the ol' suspected terrorists before they do it?


----------



## scifisam (Jun 4, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> it shouldn't be a controversial point that when the army or police - what we call the security forces - shoot people dead, it has on occasion radicalised people. for example, and i thought you might have heard of this one, when the paras killed 13 people on bloody sunday in derry, it radicalised a lot of people. while neither you nor i might miss the people shot yesterday, there is no guarantee that their deaths might not go some way towards radicalising other people. often people dismiss attacks resulting in the assailants' deaths as merely after a swift trip to the 72 virgins. i suggest that there is another reason why jihadis launch suicide attacks, and that is to set an example for others to follow. perhaps if you reply you might rise above your puerile descent to ad hominems. but i doubt it.



There's another reason too - from the POV of the people organising/encouraging these attacks it's far better if the attackers don't live to give up their names.


----------



## Badgers (Jun 4, 2017)

Sad news to wake up to this morning. Looks like a good response from emergency services despite a lot of the security focus being on Cardiff last night.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 4, 2017)

D'wards said:


> What can be done about the ol' suspected terrorists before they do it?


A good question for politicians who choose to campaign on the basis that their ideology can keep people safer...particularly with less £ spent on the task.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

D'wards said:


> What can be done about the ol' suspected terrorists before they do it?


what do you mean by 'suspected terrorists'? people who have done something but not been caught? or people who haven't as yet done anything but are thought to be people who might do something?


----------



## D'wards (Jun 4, 2017)

People who haven't done anything yet but are thought to be people that might do something


----------



## planetgeli (Jun 4, 2017)

May's speaking...."We must regulate the internet"


----------



## Ms T (Jun 4, 2017)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Now see the same thing on the streets of Harlow, Woking, Luton; places that are just as busy on a Saturday night but aren't crawling with armed cops.
> 
> Time and time again it does seem we have to be a little bit thankful that the bay guys over here are not quite as ruthlessly competent as those in Syria.



The main difference is they can't easily get hold of automatic weapons. Even the IRA couldn't manage it. Partly because we're an island.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

planetgeli said:


> May's speaking...."We must regulate the internet"








theresa may unwinding


----------



## Rimbaud (Jun 4, 2017)

scifisam said:


> There's another reason too - from the POV of the people organising/encouraging these attacks it's far better if the attackers don't live to give up their names.



The police/security services shouldn't release the names of attackers imo, maybe if they thought their deaths would be anonymous martyrdom would be less attractive.


----------



## MightyTibberton (Jun 4, 2017)

danny la rouge said:


> and others because the social media is full of twats.



Indeed! 

Some are just foolish, some act actively in bad faith to spread propoganda and hatred (on all sides, in all directions). 

While here I am enjoying participating in this forum, there are days when I wish we could just turn the Internet off! Silly, I know. 

This is from a very right-wing source, (it's also specifically American) so I'm not sure how well it will go down here, but this guy mentions the "lost boys" theory after attacks like the Quebec mosque shooting, as well as jihadi attacks as this appears to be, and I think it's worth looking at: 

http://thefederalist.com/2015/07/09/the-revenge-of-the-lost-boys/


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Now see the same thing on the streets of Harlow, Woking, Luton; places that are just as busy on a Saturday night but aren't crawling with armed cops.
> 
> Time and time again it does seem we have to be a little bit thankful that the bay guys over here are not quite as ruthlessly competent as those in Syria.


easier to become more competent if you're able to complete more than one attack.


----------



## Badgers (Jun 4, 2017)




----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

Rimbaud said:


> The police/security services shouldn't release the names of attackers imo, maybe if they thought their deaths would be anonymous martyrdom would be less attractive.


yeh. i can see how this might retard the investigation.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

Badgers said:


> View attachment 108414


yeh but tbh ukip could campaign 24/7/365 and it wouldn't increase their vote


----------



## existentialist (Jun 4, 2017)

D'wards said:


> What can be done about the ol' suspected terrorists before they do it?


Ideally, we aim to stop them becoming "suspected terrorists" in the first place.

But that is probably too fluffy and long-term thinking for the likes of our current authoritarian leadership. And also tends to involve things like being nicer to people, rather than waiting until they do terrible stuff and then having to strut around looking tough.


----------



## IC3D (Jun 4, 2017)

Presumably not releasing names like they wanted to in MCR helps the OB get the jump on others who might flee if they're mates name is all over the media


----------



## WellRounded (Jun 4, 2017)

I crossed London Bridge yesterday morning. If you cross it in rush hour during the week, it is packed, a good few hundred commuters flowing north every minute. If they had attacked during the week, you'd be looking at ten times the number of victims


----------



## bmd (Jun 4, 2017)

planetgeli said:


> May's speaking...."We must regulate the internet"



Really?! What's it done now? 

What annoys me about that apart from the obvious is that once May has her way the people who use it for these kinds of things move on to another place and we're all left with the less able space that she deems fit for our use.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

WellRounded said:


> I crossed London Bridge yesterday morning. If you cross it in rush hour during the week, it is packed, a good few hundred commuters flowing north every minute. If they had attacked during the week, you'd be looking at ten times the number of victims


how's that done? any car or van wouldn't really advance either far or fast through that crowd, no matter whether they tried to run people down: even if no one tried to fight back. and i suggest that people in the morning presented with a van trying to run them down might not be wholly accepting of the fate planned for them any more than the people attacked last night.


----------



## IC3D (Jun 4, 2017)

Wouldn't be able to get up speed cos of traffic WellRounded


----------



## WellRounded (Jun 4, 2017)

Amber Rudd is on Preston. Shouldn't she be doing important Home Sectary stuff this morning?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

IC3D said:


> Wouldn't be able to get up speed cos of traffic WellRounded


yeh something of a flaw in such a plan.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

WellRounded said:


> Amber Rudd is on Preston. Shouldn't she be doing important Home Sectary stuff this morning?


no. she shouldn't be doing anything like that. she should be at home trying to work out where her next meal's coming from.


----------



## J Ed (Jun 4, 2017)

That May speech was pure electioneering. They obviously made a decision after that Manchester attacl that they didn't use that enough to get votes, they are going to do it now.


----------



## keybored (Jun 4, 2017)

existentialist said:


> wearing fake bomb belts pretty much guaranteed a lethal response.



It might also be intended to deter members of the public from intervening/trying to overcome them.


----------



## WellRounded (Jun 4, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> how's that done? any car or van wouldn't really advance either far or fast through that crowd, no matter whether they tried to run people down: even if no one tried to fight back. and i suggest that people in the morning presented with a van trying to run them down might not be wholly accepting of the fate planned for them any more than the people attacked last night.



Maybe, but they'd  hit far more people. They could get up to 30-40 at least, and the bridge is so packed people wouldn't be able to get out  of the way. The ensuing panic and crush of people would cause problems as well.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 4, 2017)

Dogsauce said:


> also knowing the value of life in London is considered higher by the media than that in the provinces.



Last time I looked Manchester was not in London.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 4, 2017)

J Ed said:


> That May speech was pure electioneering. They obviously made a decision after Manchester that they didn't use that enough to get votes, they are going to do it now.


And very tightly focussed electioneering at that; such a crude attempt to firm up the shed UKIP vote that's been slipping away to Labour over the last week or so.


----------



## J Ed (Jun 4, 2017)

brogdale said:


> And very tightly focussed electioneering at that; such a crude attempt to firm up the shed UKIP vote that's been slipping away to Labour over the last week or so.



The 'embarrassing and difficult conversations' line is directly going to lead to more women with hijabs being verbally abused on the street, isn't it.


----------



## WellRounded (Jun 4, 2017)

IC3D said:


> Wouldn't be able to get up speed cos of traffic WellRounded



30-40 at least. Traffic on the bridge always seems to flow fairly well in the morning, its not stop start or anything . . .


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

WellRounded said:


> Maybe, but they'd  hit far more people. They could get up to 30-40 at least, and the bridge is so packed people wouldn't be able to get out  of the way. The ensuing panic and crush of people would cause problems as well.


at what point of the bridge do you suggest they'd be able to mount the pavement at speed? i don't think it could be done, due to the snail's pace of the traffic as well as the vast number of pedestrians.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

WellRounded said:


> 30-40 at least. Traffic on the bridge always seems to flow fairly well in the morning, its not stop start or anything . . .


tell you what, have a look tomorrow morning and report back.


----------



## cyril_smear (Jun 4, 2017)

keybored said:


> It might also be intended to deter members of the public from intervening/trying to overcome them.



That was my first impression when they said the belts were a 'hoax'.


----------



## danny la rouge (Jun 4, 2017)

planetgeli said:


> May's speaking...."We must regulate the internet"


Yeah, because booking van hire is done online and couldn't possibly happen any other way.

I do wonder if the things she says are actual advice she gets, or just the sort of thing she thinks people will want to hear.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 4, 2017)

J Ed said:


> The 'embarrassing and difficult conversations' line is directly going to lead to more women with hijabs being verbally abused on the street, isn't it.


Maybe I'm not really focussing on this properly...but use of the word "embarrassing"; wtaf?


----------



## J Ed (Jun 4, 2017)

danny la rouge said:


> Yeah, because booking van hire is done online and couldn't possibly happen any other way.
> 
> I do wonder if the things she says are actual advice she gets, or just the sort of thing she thinks people will want to hear.



These events are used as justification for things that they want to do anyway.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

danny la rouge said:


> Yeah, because booking van hire is done online and couldn't possibly happen any other way.
> 
> I do wonder if the things she says are actual advice she gets, or just the sort of thing she thinks people will want to hear.


there used to be those dolls that when you pulled a string said something. may is much the same: "strong and stable" "regulate the internet" "corbyn going naked into negotiations" etc


----------



## danny la rouge (Jun 4, 2017)

Smokeandsteam said:


> There are reports and eye witness accounts of people fighting back with chairs, bottles and glasses being thrown at the jihadis. Taxi drivers trying to run them over.
> 
> Very very brave actions in terrifying circumstances.


These people have my admiration. I hope I'd be one of those people given the same cucumstances, but never having been in the same circumstances  can't really know.


----------



## Libertad (Jun 4, 2017)

WellRounded said:


> Maybe, but they'd  hit far more people. They could get up to 30-40 at least, and the bridge is so packed people wouldn't be able to get out  of the way. The ensuing panic and crush of people would cause problems as well.





WellRounded said:


> 30-40 at least. Traffic on the bridge always seems to flow fairly well in the morning, its not stop start or anything . . .



Relative body count speculation. Nice.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jun 4, 2017)

danny la rouge said:


> I do wonder if the things she says are actual advice she gets, or just the sort of thing she thinks people will want to hear.



The terrorism thing is just a pretext for her to grind a pre-existing axe.

I had the same thing with my mum after the Paris Bataclan attacks. They should just block facebook, she said. How would that help? I asked her. It probably wouldn't, she said, I just fucking hate facebook.


----------



## danny la rouge (Jun 4, 2017)

SpookyFrank said:


> They should just block facebook, she said. How would that help? I asked her. It probably wouldn't, she said, I just fucking hate facebook.


 literally laughed out loud at that. 

Which is good. I needed a laugh.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 4, 2017)

SpookyFrank said:


> They should just block facebook, she said. How would that help? I asked her. It probably wouldn't, she said, I just fucking hate facebook.



Wise woman is MaFrank.


----------



## angusmcfangus (Jun 4, 2017)

Watched events unfold last night until my phone died around midnight.
Including the video from Twitter showing police getting everyone onto the floor of the pub in Borough market.
You could feel the fear and panic coming through the video.
Whatever else is discussed on this thread today, at least let's acknowledge the heroic work carried out by the Police and Emergency services last night.
Peace.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

SpookyFrank said:


> The terrorism thing is just a pretext for her to grind a pre-existing axe.


but it demonstrates AGAIN that she isn't the sharpest tool in the box


----------



## Lord Camomile (Jun 4, 2017)

planetgeli said:


> May's speaking...."We must regulate the internet"


Fuck off!


----------



## WellRounded (Jun 4, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> at what point of the bridge do you suggest they'd be able to mount the pavement at speed? i don't think it could be done, due to the snail's pace of the traffic as well as the vast number of pedestrians.



As I said, traffic flows fairly well across the bridge in my experience. It certainly doesn't flow at a snails pace, not sure where you get that idea from?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

WellRounded said:


> As I said, traffic flows fairly well across the bridge in my experience. It certainly doesn't flow at a snails pace, not sure where you get that idea from?


hmm

according to this seven year auld video you may have a point



perhaps they'll reinstall the various barriers removed from streets some years ago, or put bollards on pavements to stop this sort of thing happening. or perhaps no changes to street furniture will be considered.


----------



## peterkro (Jun 4, 2017)

planetgeli said:


> May's speaking...."We must regulate the internet"


Our delightful Home Secretary also got in a "we must stop end to end encryption" message.


----------



## andysays (Jun 4, 2017)

J Ed said:


> The 'embarrassing and difficult conversations' line is directly going to lead to more women with hijabs being verbally abused on the street, isn't it.



I'm assuming that's a quote from what May has said this morning; if so it suggests that both she and the Islamists have the same goal, to divide us against each other.

Interesting to contrast that with this comment way down the BBC's reporting, and to note in passing the name of the person making it.



> Security officer Mohammed Osman, who works on Borough High Street, had to wait for an hour before he was allowed through to his place of work. He said: "I'm not feeling worried. I'm strong enough. *These enemies are trying to divide us but we have to be together.*"


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

andysays said:


> I'm assuming that's a quote from what May has said this morning; if so it suggests that both she and the Islamists have the same goal, to divide us against each other.
> 
> Interesting to contrast that with this comment way down the BBC's reporting, and to note in passing the name of the person making it.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Jun 4, 2017)

andysays said:


> I'm assuming that's a quote from what May has said this morning; if so it suggests that both she and the Islamists have the same goal, to divide us against each other.


Of course they fucking do! Divide and conquer, power through fear! These events always serve both the perpetrators and the exploiters.


----------



## J Ed (Jun 4, 2017)

andysays said:


> I'm assuming that's a quote from what May has said this morning; if so it suggests that both she and the Islamists have the same goal, to divide us against each other.



Yes, of course in the speech she also deliberately said some unifying things as well, so that you can read whatever you want into it. Very Trump like in that respect.


----------



## WellRounded (Jun 4, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> perhaps they'll reinstall the various barriers removed from streets some years ago, or put bollards on pavements to stop this sort of thing happening. or perhaps no changes to street furniture will be considered.



They might in certain locations, but can't do it everywhere of course.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

she looks like she was on the sauce last night


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

WellRounded said:


> They might in certain locations, but can't do it everywhere of course.


i'd suggest bridges as a priority tho


----------



## scifisam (Jun 4, 2017)

WellRounded said:


> 30-40 at least. Traffic on the bridge always seems to flow fairly well in the morning, its not stop start or anything . . .



It does flow fairly well but never gets above 10mph and it'd be impossible to predict whether you ended up in heavier traffic where even getting up enough speed to mount the pavement would be hard. London Bridge is also full of people on a Saturday night, especially during warm weather like now - easily as many as on a weekday morning. And they're people going out drinking and dancing and doing other things naughty things. 

Ramadan might have played into the timing a bit too, due to participants sleeping during the day (if they can) and then having a big meal. That is, if the attackers were bothering to observe it at all. Killing people during Ramadan doesn't exactly suggest devoutness.


----------



## J Ed (Jun 4, 2017)

scifisam said:


> It does flow fairly well but never gets above 10mph and it'd be impossible to predict whether you ended up in heavier traffic where even getting up enough speed to mount the pavement would be hard. London Bridge is also full of people on a Saturday night, especially during warm weather like now - easily as many as on a weekday morning. And they're people going out drinking and dancing and doing other things naughty things.
> 
> Ramadan might have played into the timing a bit too, due to participants sleeping during the day (if they can) and then having a big meal. That is, if the attackers were bothering to observe it at all. Killing people during Ramadan doesn't exactly suggest devoutness.



Fighting in and between Muslim countries during wars doesn't stop during Ramadan.


----------



## planetgeli (Jun 4, 2017)

Maybe she (May) watched this and thought it was documentary or something.


----------



## Corax (Jun 4, 2017)

Dogsauce said:


> Weren't there reports of the police taking someone away in cuffs? Was that unrelated or someone other than the terrorists kicking off, or just someone pulled in by mistake/as a caution?


Apparently so.  There was some brief and fuzzy footage of what was reportedly the arrest - although hard to make out IMO.

If that footage was what it was reported to be then it was a very low profile and undramatic affair.  My first thought was that it may well have been someone refusing to move back past the cordon rather than anything more directly connected to the attack.


----------



## andysays (Jun 4, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> View attachment 108415



Yeah, I've read that now, but thanks.

The bit about tolerance of extremism is pretty fucking brazen given May's direct involvement in supporting/enabling British-based Islamists to get up to nefarious business in eg Libya though.

I'm seriously wondering whether this issue will be properly examined in the wake of the Manc attack and this one (depending on the history/background of those responsible, obvs) but I suspect it won't feature prominently in the mainstream discussion


----------



## Reiabuzz (Jun 4, 2017)

scifisam said:


> It does flow fairly well but never gets above 10mph and it'd be impossible to predict whether you ended up in heavier traffic where even getting up enough speed to mount the pavement would be hard. London Bridge is also full of people on a Saturday night, especially during warm weather like now - easily as many as on a weekday morning. And they're people going out drinking and dancing and doing other things naughty things.
> 
> Ramadan might have played into the timing a bit too, due to participants sleeping during the day (if they can) and then having a big meal. That is, if the attackers were bothering to observe it at all. Killing people during Ramadan doesn't exactly suggest devoutness.



Isis have specifically called for more killing during Ramadan. 

How Islamic State called for 'all-out war' on West during Ramadan


----------



## J Ed (Jun 4, 2017)

andysays said:


> Yeah, I've read that now, but thanks.
> 
> The bit about tolerance of extremism is pretty fucking brazen given May's direct involvement in supporting/enabling British-based Islamists to get up to nefarious business in eg Libya though.
> 
> I'm seriously wondering whether this issue will be properly examined in the wake of the Manc attack and this one (depending on the history/background of those responsible, obvs) but I suspect it won't feature prominently in the mainstream discussion



Now that the Tories are so obviously using the attack to campaign it may be the time to bring up the issue of security, May, Libyan exiles being used in 2011 interventioni n Libya.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

andysays said:


> Yeah, I've read that now, but thanks.
> 
> The bit about tolerance of extremism is pretty fucking brazen given May's direct involvement in supporting/enabling British-based Islamists to get up to nefarious business in eg Libya though.
> 
> I'm seriously wondering whether this issue will be properly examined in the wake of the Manc attack and this one (depending on the history/background of those responsible, obvs) but I suspect it won't feature prominently in the mainstream discussion


it won't be examined properly, if by properly you mean dispassionately and with attention.


----------



## scifisam (Jun 4, 2017)

Reiabuzz said:


> Isis have specifically called for more killing during Ramadan.
> 
> How Islamic State called for 'all-out war' on West during Ramadan



Tbh I wouldn't call Isis devout in the same way I wouldn't call Christian abortion clinic bombers devout. Extremist about one particular part of their religion but not that fussed about the rest of it.


----------



## Who PhD (Jun 4, 2017)

Apparently one guy wore a hoax suicide vest.

That seems weird. Why fake that? The fundie terrorists don't seem the sort to do that, either they wouldn't bother or they'd use the real thing because they don't care about what happens to themselves.

Maybe i've been watching too much Alex Jones.


----------



## RD2003 (Jun 4, 2017)

Rimbaud said:


> "Bimbo pop stars"? Leave the misogyny out, this comment is especially inappropriate after the Manchester bombing, directed at fans of someone the attacker probably also regarded as a "bimbo pop star."
> 
> People talk about prayers and stuff as a way of offering sympathy and support, no need to be such a dick about it, I don't understand why it bothers you so much.


Doesn't bother me. As I said, prayers always solve it. Especially when they're 'offered', and particularly if it somehow involves Facebook or Twitter...
Bimbos are male as well these days.


----------



## WellRounded (Jun 4, 2017)

scifisam said:


> It does flow fairly well but never gets above 10mph and it'd be impossible to predict whether you ended up in heavier traffic where even getting up enough speed to mount the pavement would be hard.



That's not my experience tbh, southbound is usually a lot faster than 10mph. But if that's your experience I'm not going to argue it. If they hit heavy traffic, they could do another circuit until they get the space

]


----------



## YouSir (Jun 4, 2017)

Who PhD said:


> Apparently one guy wore a hoax suicide vest.
> 
> That seems weird. Why fake that? The fundie terrorists don't seem the sort to do that, either they wouldn't bother or they'd use the real thing because they don't care about what happens to themselves.
> 
> Maybe i've been watching too much Alex Jones.



Not smart enough to sort the real thing, wanted to ensure more fear and discourage people from tackling him.


----------



## Corax (Jun 4, 2017)

scifisam said:


> Tbh I wouldn't call Isis devout in the same way I wouldn't call Christian abortion clinic bombers devout. Extremist about one particular part of their religion but not that fussed about the rest of it.


Quite.  Eg most Christians (UK at least) wouldn't identify Westboro Baptist 'Church' as anything whatsoever to do with the same religion.


----------



## Mr Moose (Jun 4, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> it shouldn't be a controversial point that when the army or police - what we call the security forces - shoot people dead, it has on occasion radicalised people. for example, and i thought you might have heard of this one, when the paras killed 13 people on bloody sunday in derry, it radicalised a lot of people. while neither you nor i might miss the people shot yesterday, there is no guarantee that their deaths might not go some way towards radicalising other people. often people dismiss attacks resulting in the assailants' deaths as merely after a swift trip to the 72 virgins. i suggest that there is another reason why jihadis launch suicide attacks, and that is to set an example for others to follow. perhaps if you reply you might rise above your puerile descent to ad hominems. but i doubt it.



Putting people on trial also radicalises, surely that's obvious?

But as you are well aware I wasn't advocating a shoot to kill policy, merely that in this case lamenting that there will be no trial seems irrelevant.

But y'know knock yourself out with your juvenile facepalms and patronising reply.


----------



## scifisam (Jun 4, 2017)

J Ed said:


> Now that the Tories are so obviously using the attack to campaign it may be the time to bring up the issue of security, May, Libyan exiles being used in 2011 interventioni n Libya.



And the fact that these attacks would be much more devastating were it not for our emergency services and NHS, all being cut in real terms by the Tories.


----------



## Corax (Jun 4, 2017)

YouSir said:


> Not smart enough to sort the real thing, wanted to ensure more fear and discourage people from tackling him.


And guarantee martyrdom, as has been discussed only a few posts previously Who PhD


----------



## Mr Moose (Jun 4, 2017)

cyril_smear said:


> It only took you two hours of posting to get there.



He's equating the shooting of these three with Bloody Sunday. A new low.


----------



## gindygoo (Jun 4, 2017)

I didn't know about this until I woke up this morning, but I'm so bloody saddened that there's yet more murder & mayhem on our streets.

I don't know the answers, but I do know there's a seemingly concerted effort to push agendas after these types of attacks. We as a ppl, as a whole society, must try and resist buying into the professional politicians attempts to take our freedoms away under the guise of 'security'!

RIP to the dead, and speedy recovery to the injured and traumatised


----------



## maomao (Jun 4, 2017)

Was it not Boris who removed all the barriers from London streets making this and the Westminster Bridge attack possible in the first place? Seem to remember them all going within a couple of months of him getting in.


----------



## cyril_smear (Jun 4, 2017)

Mr Moose said:


> He's equating the shooting of these three with Bloody Sunday. A new low.



I don't think he is. It was(I think) him trying to bait somebody into a spat about the british security forces. It was obvious he was after an argument from his posts... But yes, quite low that he resorted to 'bloody Sunday'


----------



## maomao (Jun 4, 2017)

Who PhD said:


> Maybe i've been watching too much Alex Jones.


Any Alex Jones is too much Alex Jones. Really. Even if you think you're watching it ironically.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jun 4, 2017)

Who PhD said:


> Apparently one guy wore a hoax suicide vest.
> 
> That seems weird. Why fake that?



Create more panic, deter have-a-go-heroes, ensure that you're killed and not arrested.

Or who fucking knows. By definition we're not dealing with rational thinkers here.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

Mr Moose said:


> Putting people on trial also radicalises, surely that's obvious?
> 
> But as you are well aware I wasn't advocating a shoot to kill policy, merely that in this case lamenting that there will be no trial seems irrelevant.
> 
> But y'know knock yourself out with your juvenile facepalms and patronising reply.


perhaps you could give an example of this 'obvious' point that putting people on trial radicalises. 

turning to the issue of shoot to kill, you said


Mr Moose said:


> But guilt is not at issue here and a trial would have been unlikely to reveal something we didn't know, so all I'm saying is what happened, happened, nothing to regret.


you don't have a trial to reveal things we don't know. THAT's surely obvious. and for someone who affects not to advocate a shoot to kill policy, it sure seems like you're very comfortable lending it your support if not actually proselytising for it.


----------



## YouSir (Jun 4, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> perhaps you could give an example of this 'obvious' point that putting people on trial radicalises.
> 
> turning to the issue of shoot to kill, you said
> you don't have a trial to reveal things we don't know. THAT's surely obvious. and for someone who affects not to advocate a shoot to kill policy, it sure seems like you're very comfortable lending it your support if not actually proselytising for it.



What's your position Pickman's? Do you think there was a misuse of firearms last night?


----------



## MightyTibberton (Jun 4, 2017)

IDS also calling on the "cyber companies" to act. 

And calling for "in-house incarceration" in support of the security services - and I literally have no idea what that might mean? Some sort of internment programme?


----------



## A380 (Jun 4, 2017)

Who PhD said:


> Apparently one guy wore a hoax suicide vest.
> 
> That seems weird. Why fake that? The fundie terrorists don't seem the sort to do that, either they wouldn't bother or they'd use the real thing because they don't care about what happens to themselves.
> 
> Maybe i've been watching too much Alex Jones.


To try and make sure the police kill you.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

YouSir said:


> What's your position Pickman's? Do you think there was a misuse of firearms last night?


my pov is that shooting people dead renders questioning them rather more difficult.


----------



## Badgers (Jun 4, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> she looks like she was on the sauce last night


I can imagine a buffet of sleepers and downers is the only way she is getting any sleep right now.


----------



## YouSir (Jun 4, 2017)

MightyTibberton said:


> IDS also calling on the "cyber companies" to act.
> 
> And calling for "in-house incarceration" in support of the security services - and I literally have no idea what that might mean? Some sort of internment programme?



Internet censorship on this sort of thing will always be unworkable, all it'd lead to is blanket blocks being clumsily implemented. Take it he didn't say anything about the causes of attacks like this then? Only saw a few seconds of the interview.


----------



## Mr Moose (Jun 4, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> perhaps you could give an example of this 'obvious' point that putting people on trial radicalises.
> 
> turning to the issue of shoot to kill, you said
> you don't have a trial to reveal things we don't know. THAT's surely obvious. and for someone who affects not to advocate a shoot to kill policy, it sure seems like you're very comfortable lending it your support if not actually proselytising for it.



I'm not at all. If the suspect can be taken, then that is what is required. 

Again, the specific point being made was that it was unfortunate there would not be a trial, not if there should be shoot to kill.

Face it, the idea that last night's outcome might radicalise more than a trial is absurd. It's going to be low on the list of things that piss a potential terrorist off, the shooting of individuals on a suicide mission who clearly intended to die. They'd be more likely inspired by Adebolajo's defiance or his subsequent loss of teeth. But so be it, he survived so trial was right.


----------



## YouSir (Jun 4, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> my pov is that shooting people dead renders questioning them rather more difficult.



True, but in relation to last night, as far as information so far allows you to judge, do you think there was a misuse of firearms? Or was it fair use in the circumstances? Or are you just making a general point not directly related?


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 4, 2017)

Mowing people down in a van, then running amok with a knife stabbing others whilst wearing what appears to be a bomb vest, in the dark, had only one outcome. In this instance I'd have shot them dead too.


----------



## MightyTibberton (Jun 4, 2017)

Not much on causes - he was very clear in distancing the attackers from mainstream Muslims though, which is good.

I think they're as interested in stopping encrypted messaging as censorship, aren't they?


----------



## Mr Moose (Jun 4, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> my pov is that shooting people dead renders questioning them rather more difficult.



Not your initial point which was radicalisation.


----------



## hot air baboon (Jun 4, 2017)

MightyTibberton said:


> IDS also calling on the "cyber companies" to act.
> 
> And calling for "in-house incarceration" in support of the security services - and I literally have no idea what that might mean? Some sort of internment programme?



house arrest presumably - tagged, banned from certain areas, attending certain places or associating with certain people


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Jun 4, 2017)

MightyTibberton said:


> IDS also calling on the "cyber companies" to act.
> 
> And calling for "in-house incarceration" in support of the security services - and I literally have no idea what that might mean? Some sort of internment programme?



Possibly a stricter implementation of the 'Control Orders' model.


----------



## frogwoman (Jun 4, 2017)

Just seen an interview with corbs where he was asked 'will this be a positive or negative for you' in terms of the polls! He answered it quite well but wtf were they doing with a question like that


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Jun 4, 2017)

Sounds like May is blaming the internet and based on her previous record, presumably sees the solution to the problem in North Korea style controls, backdoored security etc.


----------



## danny la rouge (Jun 4, 2017)

frogwoman said:


> Just seen an interview with corbs where he was asked 'will this be a positive or negative for you' in terms of the polls! He answered it quite well but wtf were they doing with a question like that


Who was interviewing? (Channel, i mean).


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 4, 2017)

frogwoman said:


> Just seen an interview with corbs where he was asked 'will this be a positive or negative for you' in terms of the polls! He answered it quite well but wtf were they doing with a question like that



They were showing their grubby little hand.That is exactly how these events are viewed and used. Point scoring, finger pointing and fear mongering.


----------



## frogwoman (Jun 4, 2017)

danny la rouge said:


> Who was interviewing? (Channel, i mean).



BBC


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 4, 2017)

Bernie Gunther said:


> Sounds like May is blaming the internet and based on her previous record, presumably sees the solution to the problem in North Korea style controls, backdoored security etc.



Why hasn't she called for the banning of vans and knives?...Oh and people definately ban them and pubs, roads, petrol...all of it.


----------



## danny la rouge (Jun 4, 2017)

Badgers said:


> I can imagine a buffet of sleepers and downers is the only way she is getting any sleep right now.


I find her leadership style an unsettling combination of incompetence and authoritarian tendencies.


----------



## frogwoman (Jun 4, 2017)

London attack: General election will go ahead on 8 June, says May - BBC News here about halfway down (I think)


----------



## Lord Camomile (Jun 4, 2017)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Mowing people down in a van, then running amok with a knife stabbing others whilst wearing what appears to be a bomb vest, in the dark


Just because you broke it down in such terms, I think one thing that really concerns me about this and the Westminster attack is the effectiveness of it. Not necessarily in terms of direct victims, although obviously any harm is always terrible, but how because of its relative simplicity it is almost more scary than bombs.

As has been discussed upthread, bombs take preparation, resources, smarts and can make you more open to detection. A van and some knives? No such problems. These kind of attacks are worryingly easy to carry out. Are we now to be scared of every van, fuck it, every vehicle?

I hope not, but to be quite honest I wouldn't blame anyone for feeling more nervous walking alongside major roads for the next few weeks. I just hope they recognise who the 'enemy' (so to speak) is, and don't go persecuting the wrong people.


----------



## Corax (Jun 4, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> my pov is that shooting people dead renders questioning them rather more difficult.


Makes it much easier to control any subsequent narrative though.


----------



## frogwoman (Jun 4, 2017)

danny la rouge said:


> I find her leadership style an unsettling combination of incompetence and authoritarian tendencies.



Yeah I can't imagine Corbs wanting to read everyone's emails for example. And it's clear something about her approach isn't working as there have been three terrorist attacks with multiple casualties in about six months.


----------



## Corax (Jun 4, 2017)

How on earth 'controlling the internet' helps prevent people from driving a van into people and then rampaging with knives...?  Anyone?


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 4, 2017)

frogwoman said:


> I can't imagine Corbs wanting to read everyone's emails for example


except for the ones he can read out at PMQ's lol


----------



## wtfftw (Jun 4, 2017)

Lord Camomile said:


> Just because you broke it down in such terms, I think one thing that really concerns me about this and the Westminster attack is the effectiveness of it. Not necessarily in terms of direct victims, although obviously any harm is always terrible, but how because of its relative simplicity it is almost more scary than bombs.
> 
> As has been discussed upthread, bombs take preparation, resources, smarts and can make you more open to detection. A van and some knives? No such problems. These kind of attacks are worryingly easy to carry out. Are we now to be scared of every van, fuck it, every vehicle?
> 
> I hope not, but to be quite honest I wouldn't blame anyone for feeling more nervous walking alongside major roads for the next few weeks. I just hope they recognise who the 'enemy' (so to speak) is, and don't go persecuting the wrong people.


I'm not sure it's much different from bombs in bins and under parked cars. Any innocuous shit can be used and I don't feel like it's that tricky to put together a bomb (be it nails or whatever).

I think the worst thing is the coverage.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 4, 2017)

J Ed said:


> Fighting in and between Muslim countries during wars doesn't stop during Ramadan.


In fact there was a recent announcement from some  scholar that it was duty to wage jihaad during Ramadam


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 4, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> my pov is that shooting people dead renders questioning them rather more difficult.


I'm sure alive they'd be only too pleased to help the police with their enquiries


----------



## LDC (Jun 4, 2017)

Corax said:


> How on earth 'controlling the internet' helps prevent people from driving a van into people and then rampaging with knives...?  Anyone?



Nobody is saying it stops the act being carried out on the day.

The idea is that the tendency or likelihood of taking part in such an act would be picked up through better monitoring. People rarely arrive at such positions from nothing, it's a position that comes about through a process, and if that process can be interrupted the idea is you can prevent future problems.

E2A: trying to be objective about the reasoning, it's another argument as to whether it can/or should actually be done.


----------



## RD2003 (Jun 4, 2017)

Corax said:


> How on earth 'controlling the internet' helps prevent people from driving a van into people and then rampaging with knives...?  Anyone?


Not diificult. Islamic radicalism over the internet.
They're flailing around, trying to give an impression that they can solve something for which there is no solution. 
Business as usual...


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 4, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> In fact there was a recent announcement from some  scholar that it was duty to wage jihaad during Ramadam



Eh? Just goes to show how interpretation gets to skew this stuff. Who was this arsehole?

I have always been told that ramadam is about contemplation and getting closer to allah through fasting, spending time with family and community, giving generously to those whom have less. That's exactly what I have witnessed it to be as well. Funny enough, killing people has never once featured in any explanation.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> I'm sure alive they'd be only too pleased to help the police with their enquiries


you can believe that, but you don't know how they'd be. if they're prepared to die and then rather unexpectedly find themselves alive, it's by no means impossible they might sing like a canary. after all, you don't give someone training in coping with interrogation if they're unlikely to need it.


----------



## teqniq (Jun 4, 2017)

Bernie Gunther said:


> Sounds like May is blaming the internet and based on her previous record, presumably sees the solution to the problem in North Korea style controls, backdoored security etc.


The internet, Yes of course it is. It would be funny if it were not so tragic. What is very much part of the problem is doing business with Saudi Arabia, one of the largest proponents of extremism in the Middle East and I suspect they already know that. But will anything be done to rectify that situation? I suspect not, not at least whilst there's plenty of money to be made for UK plc.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

Corax said:


> Makes it much easier to control any subsequent narrative though.


good point well made


----------



## MightyTibberton (Jun 4, 2017)

Corax said:


> How on earth 'controlling the internet' helps prevent people from driving a van into people and then rampaging with knives...? Anyone?



Well, yes, but people aren't watching jihadi beheading videos on ITV... 

I agree with people who say that it's probably impossible to "control the internet" as it is at the moment. It might only be the medium, but it's clear that the web is a big player for radicalisation of young people - far right as well as jihadi. 

I'll no doubt end up shouting "SOMETHING MUST BE DONE!" in a minute.  

How long after the invention of the printing press did the Old World order of the universal Catholic Church break down? 

I do think it's possible that we're seeing a similarly disruptive effect from widespread high-speed internet access in all sorts of ways. Some good, some bad.


----------



## RD2003 (Jun 4, 2017)

Rutita1 said:


> Eh? Just goes to show how interpretation gets to skew this stuff. Who was this arsehole?
> 
> I have always been told that ramadam is about contemplation and getting closer to allah through fasting, spending time with family and community, giving generously to those whom have less. Funny enough, killing people has never once featured in any explanation.


Ramadan might be about all that. But you've got to remember that these people have 'nothing to do with Islam.'


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

Mr Moose said:


> I'm not at all. If the suspect can be taken, then that is what is required.
> 
> Again, the specific point being made was that it was unfortunate there would not be a trial, not if there should be shoot to kill.
> 
> Face it, the idea that last night's outcome might radicalise more than a trial is absurd. It's going to be low on the list of things that piss a potential terrorist off, the shooting of individuals on a suicide mission who clearly intended to die. They'd be more likely inspired by Adebolajo's defiance or his subsequent loss of teeth. But so be it, he survived so trial was right.





Pickman's model said:


> perhaps you could give an example of this 'obvious' point that putting people on trial radicalises.


----------



## J Ed (Jun 4, 2017)

Corax said:


> Makes it much easier to control any subsequent narrative though.



There is a lot of narrative control going on this morning, Labour need to reply as soon as possible with a statement condemning May over support for Saudi Arabia, and the role of Libyan exiles in 2011. This stuff has to be fair game after this morning's performance from the vermin.


----------



## xenon (Jun 4, 2017)

Corax said:


> How on earth 'controlling the internet' helps prevent people from driving a van into people and then rampaging with knives...?  Anyone?



Authoratarian types always want more power and information on everything. 

It may be that the attackers discussed their plans over encrypted messaging services. Equally they might have just talked about it face to face or over the phone.

They'd love the legal backing and ability to in realtime, intercept, decrypt and assess the conversations of anyone on their watch list.


----------



## Wilf (Jun 4, 2017)

J Ed said:


> Now that the Tories are so obviously using the attack to campaign it may be the time to bring up the issue of security, May, Libyan exiles being used in 2011 interventioni n Libya.


I haven't seen her speech, just a couple of extracts. Her comments about _supporting extremism_ were specific enough to be an attack on Corbyn, but not specific enough that he can reply to her explicitly (on that).  But I agree, it is the time to go for her - and it would be an idea for Corbyn to come out with something along the lines of imposing sanctions on Saudi.  We/Labour/anyone should do that not as some ultra cynical way of getting a hung parliament/smaller Tory majority, but because it's a screamingly obvious truth.  When people are being butchered, here and abroad, it's time to shatter the lies that protect their hypocrisy.


----------



## cyril_smear (Jun 4, 2017)

I just saw a post about the incident last night on facebook that is 13 hours old. Something about dyslexic terrorists and ramadan.


----------



## camouflage (Jun 4, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> Ramadan might be about all that. But you've got to remember that these people have 'nothing to do with Islam.'



And yet, of coarse they have something to do with islam, they are dredged up from opportunities, bounties and frameworks of thought that exist in parts of the world where islam is predominant.More specifically, they have everything to do with Wahhabists and our very close friends in Saudi Arabia that we like selling weapons to.

Great article by Pilger here by the way: Libya's Link to Manchester's Tragedy


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

YouSir said:


> True, but in relation to last night, as far as information so far allows you to judge, do you think there was a misuse of firearms? Or was it fair use in the circumstances? Or are you just making a general point not directly related?


given the lamentable use of police firearms in the past, i am naturally suspicious of all police shootings. if on this occasion there was an apparent clear and present danger to life and limb then i would be pleasantly surprised that they followed their rules. i do though feel that shooting terrorists dead can hinder subsequent inquiries, can lead to them being viewed in some quarters as martyrs, fuels any propaganda issued proclaiming 'we' are at war with 'them': if the government is serious about winning any war of ideas, then treating terrorists like criminals instead of gunning them down when the opportunity if not the necessity presents to my mind undermines that aim. the suggestion the general election should be postponed, no matter that it's rejected, undermines that aim. if i was home secretary, my strong advice to police forces would be as far as possible to deal with jihadi 'loons as you would with any other criminal rather than allowing anyone to present the state as using special weapons and tactics against them. but i fear theresa may and amber rudd and that are far more interested in bigging themselves up by association with guns and special forces to undermine the jihadi by refusing to allow him special status.


----------



## Idris2002 (Jun 4, 2017)

If Corbyn does give it back with interest - and he has to - it should be all-out "from hell's heart I stab at thee" stuff.


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 4, 2017)

MightyTibberton said:


> IDS also calling on the "cyber companies" to act.
> 
> And calling for "in-house incarceration" in support of the security services - and I literally have no idea what that might mean? Some sort of internment programme?



After Manchester heard a senior police officer talking about bringing in a form of internment. He was saying it's to difficult to keep tabs on all suspects. 

If May is really thinking of doing this it willing be counterproductive.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

Gramsci said:


> After Manchester heard a senior police officer talking about bringing in a form of internment. He was saying it's to difficult to keep tabs on all suspects.
> 
> If May is really thinking of doing this it willing be counterproductive.


yeh let may do it. let her blow her foot off a day or two before the election.


----------



## Idris2002 (Jun 4, 2017)

Gramsci said:


> After Manchester heard a senior police officer talking about bringing in a form of internment. He was saying it's to difficult to keep tabs on all suspects.
> 
> If May is really thinking of doing this it willing be counterproductive.


Are these people genuinely that thick?


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 4, 2017)

Here is the senior police officer on internment.

Former Met Chief called for internment of radical extremists

This was after Manchester


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

Gramsci said:


> Here is the senior police officer on internment.
> 
> Former Met Chief called for internment of radical extremists
> 
> This was after Manchester


what a pity the cages of long kesh are no longer available


----------



## agricola (Jun 4, 2017)

Idris2002 said:


> If Corbyn does give it back with interest - and he has to - it should be all-out "from hell's heart I stab at thee" stuff.



It should be.  Not in a "_you cut the police / armed officers / armed forces_" way, but by pointing out where almost all the religion "inspiring" this sort of thing is promoted from- and who provides an unknown amount of funding - and how we treat the country that does it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

agricola said:


> It should be.  Not in a "_you cut the police / armed officers / armed forces_" way, but by pointing out where almost all the religion "inspiring" this sort of thing is promoted from- and who provides an unknown amount of funding - comes from, and how we treat the country that does it.


the government rewards it repeatedly

it's as though being filthy rich allows one to be treated differently from e.g. ghaddafi's libya


----------



## Wilf (Jun 4, 2017)

Idris2002 said:


> If Corbyn does give it back with interest - and he has to - it should be all-out "from hell's heart I stab at thee" stuff.


In practice, if he/Labour were to go for at and make an all out attack around Libya and Saudi, they'd have to do over 3 days this week.  If they could manage that, there will be an onslaught from pretty much every news/print outlet and it will risk making things even worse.  But then he really does have to do it, not even primarily for electoral reasons. If you can't manage a bit of unbridled truth when people have been slaughtered by a toxic combination of warped Islamism and western foreign policy, it's not wroth bothering.


----------



## existentialist (Jun 4, 2017)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Nobody is saying it stops the act being carried out on the day.
> 
> The idea is that the tendency or likelihood of taking part in such an act would be picked up through better monitoring. People rarely arrive at such positions from nothing, it's a position that comes about through a process, and if that process can be interrupted the idea is you can prevent future problems.
> 
> E2A: trying to be objective about the reasoning, it's another argument as to whether it can/or should actually be done.


I think the problem with trying to "control the internet" is that while quite a lot of it could be "controlled", there will always be aspects, like strong encryption, VPN stuff, darknet, that will be difficult to police. Which would tend to chase the baddies into those dark corners, while the rest of us endure overweening intrusion into our lives, and oppressive levels of security and control, without actually addressing the problem such moves would be intended to solve.


----------



## Wilf (Jun 4, 2017)

agricola said:


> It should be.  Not in a "_you cut the police / armed officers / armed forces_" way, but by pointing out where almost all the religion "inspiring" this sort of thing is promoted from- and who provides an unknown amount of funding - and how we treat the country that does it.


spot on.


----------



## teqniq (Jun 4, 2017)

Lots of people have already joined the dots on Twitter, but away from the net I have recently overheard conversations from people you wouldn't necessarily expect to be discussing such things observing that the problems originate in places like Saudi Arabia.


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 4, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> what a pity the cages of long kesh are no longer available



I wouldn't be surprised if Corbyn gets asked about internment. The Tories are going to try to show him as being soft on terrorism.


----------



## agricola (Jun 4, 2017)

Wilf said:


> In practice, if he/Labour were to go for at and make an all out attack around Libya and Saudi, they'd have to do over 3 days this week.  If they could manage that, there will be an onslaught from pretty much every news/print outlet and it will risk making things even worse.  But then he really does have to do it, not even primarily for electoral reasons. If you can't manage a bit of unbridled truth when people have been slaughtered by a toxic combination of warped Islamism and western foreign policy, it's not wroth bothering.



It depends on how he did it.  Attacking the Government directly would probably get that response.  He may not get such a negative response from the press if he calls for a reassessment of who it is we are being asked to fight, demands the publication (or at least an acknowledgement of what it contains) of that buried report and points out that we cannot go down the same route of pretending that nothing is wrong with our friends whilst also calling for tough yet nonsensical measures against our own citizens.  A gentle pointing out of how important it is that everyone is near to a well-equipped trauma centre or A&E, that there are sufficient ambulances and an appropriate number of police (armed and unarmed) who are close enough to assist would not go amiss either.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 4, 2017)

weltweit said:


> Go on then existentialist, give me just the top 10 reasons why it is wrong.



I'll give you four straight off the top of my head:

1) Police firearms officers are trained to shoot at the centre of mass, i.e. the person's body.
2) Pistols and carbines aren't particularly accurate over more than 5m (pistols) to 10m (carbines), so attempting to shoot suspects in the legs wastes time.
3) Leg wounds can still kill.
4) A body hit is more likely to immobilise than a leg hit.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> I'll give you four straight off the top of my head:
> 
> 1) Police firearms officers are trained to shoot at the centre of mass, i.e. the person's body.
> 2) Pistols and carbines aren't particularly accurate over more than 5m (pistols) to 10m (carbines), so attempting to shoot suspects in the legs wastes time.
> ...


5) they don't want to


----------



## xenon (Jun 4, 2017)

Idris2002 said:


> If Corbyn does give it back with interest - and he has to - it should be all-out "from hell's heart I stab at thee" stuff.



I disagree. A dignified and cool response pointing out things like support for the Saudi regeme, the origins and motivating factors behind radicalisation. Otherwise he risks looking like a bit of a belecose twat who has conceded the election and is just lashing out.


----------



## Corax (Jun 4, 2017)

agricola said:


> It depends on how he did it.  Attacking the Government directly would probably get that response.  He may not get such a negative response from the press if he calls for a reassessment of who it is we are being asked to fight, demands the publication (or at least an acknowledgement of what it contains) of that buried report and points out that we cannot go down the same route of pretending that nothing is wrong with our friends whilst also calling for tough yet nonsensical measures against our own citizens.  A gentle pointing out of how important it is that everyone is near to a well-equipped trauma centre or A&E, that there are sufficient ambulances and an appropriate number of police (armed and unarmed) who are close enough to assist would not go amiss either.


I believe it would be inevitably met with accusations that he was 'making excuses for' and 'justifying the actions of' murderers, complete with out-of-context quotes in the first paragraph.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jun 4, 2017)

On-camera interview with bloke from Borough Market restaurant who came face-to-face with ‘three attackers with machetes’ before they moved on:


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 4, 2017)

Ms T said:


> They shoot to incapacitate, basically. Shooting people in the legs is too risky.



If we want to be pernickity, they shoot to kill, it's merely that it isn't called that.
Also, even with a well-tuned firearm and a steady hand (steady hands being in short supply when the adrenaline is surging) hitting a target (a leg) less than a third as broad as the preferred target, is a lot more difficult.  weltweit has watched too many Westerns!


----------



## RD2003 (Jun 4, 2017)

Wilf said:


> spot on.


I think people would do well to remember that the relationship with Saudi is far more important than individual lives lost in the name of Saudi-inspired Whahabbi terrorism. After all, who will remember the victims in six months time, or even that anything like this, or Manchester or Paris even happened?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

xenon said:


> I disagree. A dignified and cool response pointing out things like support for the Saudi regeme, the origins and motivating factors behind radicalisation. Otherwise he risks looking like a bit of a belecose twat who has conceded the election and is just lashing out.


yeh he shouldn't try to out-may may


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 4, 2017)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Last time I looked Manchester was not in London.



Oh Manchester, so much to answer for.


----------



## Who PhD (Jun 4, 2017)

SpookyFrank said:


> Create more panic, deter have-a-go-heroes, ensure that you're killed and not arrested.
> 
> Or who fucking knows. By definition we're not dealing with rational thinkers here.


I think there is rationality, just a rather terrible logic.

I don't think they are incoherent. Just deeply twisted.

But they could achieve all those goals with a working suicide vest.

Obviously it's good that didn't happen, but it all strikes me as weird.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 4, 2017)

cyril_smear said:


> That was my first impression when they said the belts were a 'hoax'.



Bit of a daft assumption on the part of the Jihadis that, given that if you give people no hope of escape, they're more likely to fight back.


----------



## Who PhD (Jun 4, 2017)

A380 said:


> To try and make sure the police kill you.


I don't think they care about living


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 4, 2017)

Who PhD said:


> Apparently one guy wore a hoax suicide vest.
> 
> That seems weird. Why fake that? The fundie terrorists don't seem the sort to do that, either they wouldn't bother or they'd use the real thing because they don't care about what happens to themselves.
> 
> Maybe i've been watching too much Alex Jones.



Worn to provoke "death by cop".


----------



## weltweit (Jun 4, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> .. weltweit has watched too many Westerns!


That may well be true!


----------



## cyril_smear (Jun 4, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> Bit of a daft assumption on the part of the Jihadis that, given that if you give people no hope of escape, they're more likely to fight back.



I suppose they would go for the easy targets. I'm not brave enough enough to tackle a would be suicide bomber and would probably run in the opposite direction, however if I got attacked by a man with a knife I'd be inclined to kick back. I think given the option between someone who is 10 stone or a woman or a bloke who weighs 15 stone a would be terrorist would go for the easier option and hope the 15 stone bloke would run(which I would, sadly. And I assume many people would too). So ye, wearing a 'bomb' would/could act as a deterent to would be heroes.

Does that make sense.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 4, 2017)

wtfftw said:


> I'm not sure it's much different from bombs in bins and under parked cars. Any innocuous shit can be used and I don't feel like it's that tricky to put together a bomb (be it nails or whatever).



As a Londoner, I've long got used to the threat of "things that go bang".  I'm also sharply aware, like many people of my generation, just how easy (or non-tricky) it is to assemble a simple but potent blast bomb from household materials.  We've actually been fortunate that our wannabe Jihadis have gone for relatively-complex chemical munitions so far.



> I think the worst thing is the coverage.



Agreed.  The amount of sensationalism just provides sticks for the govt to beat their enemy-of-the-day with, as well as ammo for every racist, "white nationalist" and other nutjob out there.


----------



## cyril_smear (Jun 4, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> Bit of a daft assumption on the part of the Jihadis that, given that if you give people no hope of escape, they're more likely to fight back.



I'd rather tackle somebody with a knife than a bomb. You can defend against a targeted attack but an undiscriminate attack i.e a bomb is pretty hard to fight off. Best option is to run like fuck.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Jun 4, 2017)

This has to be the week where the nation at large finally talks about active UK support for Islamic extremism. It is utter dereliction for press, politicians and even citizens to not especially underline the Saudi issue


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 4, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> Not diificult. Islamic radicalism over the internet.
> They're flailing around, trying to give an impression that they can solve something for which there is no solution.
> Business as usual...



Get rid of the internet and older methods, methods that are harder to track, like _samizdat_, are fallen back on.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

cyril_smear said:


> I'd rather tackle somebody with a knife than a bomb. You can defend against a targeted attack but an undiscriminate attack i.e a bomb is pretty hard to fight off. Best option is to run like fuck.


let's hope you never have to tackle either


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 4, 2017)

Gramsci said:


> After Manchester heard a senior police officer talking about bringing in a form of internment. He was saying it's to difficult to keep tabs on all suspects.
> 
> If May is really thinking of doing this it willing be counterproductive.



Someone should have slapped the daft cunt copper around the head and said "so, do you think internment worked well in Ulster, you dumb fuck?".


----------



## frogwoman (Jun 4, 2017)

Isn't there talk of creating segregated prisons for jihadists? I can't see that going wrong.


----------



## MightyTibberton (Jun 4, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> Get rid of the internet and older methods, methods that are harder to track, like _samizdat_, are fallen back on.



Possibly, but having ISIS pages on Facebook, and jihadi (and far right, and all sorts of other extremist crap) on YouTube isn't great and I think those companies should be asked to do more to get rid of it.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 4, 2017)

cyril_smear said:


> I suppose they would go for the easy targets. I'm not brave enough enough to tackle a would be suicide bomber and would probably run in the opposite direction, however if I got attacked by a man with a knife I'd be inclined to kick back. I think given the option between someone who is 10 stone or a woman or a bloke who weighs 15 stone a would be terrorist would go for the easier option and hope the 15 stone bloke would run(which I would, sadly. And I assume many people would too). So ye, wearing a 'bomb' would/could act as a deterent to would be heroes.
> 
> Does that make sense.



It does make sense, but I think you're making an assumption that people will always act rationally and self-interestedly, when faced with a deadly threat.  We know from history that this isn't the case, and that some people act irrationally and altruistically, putting themselves in harm's way to save others.


----------



## cyril_smear (Jun 4, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> let's hope you never have to tackle either



Point?


----------



## cyril_smear (Jun 4, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> It does make sense, but I think you're making an assumption that people will always act rationally and self-interestedly, when faced with a deadly threat.  We know from history that this isn't the case, and that some people act irrationally and altruistically, putting themselves in harm's way to save others.



I guess, I've never been in a situation like that. Nor have I been in a fight or flight situation since I was a young man so I've n idea, honestly, how I would respond. But, I would imagine that I'd get away asap.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jun 4, 2017)

Met statement:



> Officers from the Met's Counter Terrorism Command have this morning, Sunday 4 June, arrested 12 people in Barking, east London, in connection with last night's incidents in London Bridge and the Borough Market area. Searches of a number of addresses in Barking are continuing.



Arrests following attacks in London Bridge and Borough Market


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 4, 2017)

cyril_smear said:


> I'd rather tackle somebody with a knife than a bomb. You can defend against a targeted attack but an undiscriminate attack i.e a bomb is pretty hard to fight off. Best option is to run like fuck.



I'd personally rather not tackle either, given personal experience, but sometimes the only way to go, is to do exactly what the attacker thinks you *won't* do.  Bear in mind that psychologically, yer bloke in a bomb vest (real or fake) feels invincible, and expects everyone to shit themselves and leg it - same with yer "gangstas" with guns or knives.  Turn their logic on its head, refuse to be cowed by the weapon, and they lose that perception of invincibility - they become vulnerable.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 4, 2017)

frogwoman said:


> Isn't there talk of creating segregated prisons for jihadists? I can't see that going wrong.



There's already a "prison within a prison" for "radical Islamists" at Belmarsh, and it very definitely hasn't (no sirree, definitely not, honest!!!) gone wrong!


----------



## Wilf (Jun 4, 2017)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> This has to be the week where the nation at large finally talks about active UK support for Islamic extremism. It is utter dereliction for press, politicians and even citizens to not especially underline the Saudi issue


I feel quite grubby thinking about this as an 'election issue', but it is.  Absolutely. Unavoidably.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

cyril_smear said:


> Point?


over your head, obvs


----------



## cyril_smear (Jun 4, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> over your head, obvs



Spell it out to me instead then of making out you have an overarching knowledge of everything. 

You come across as though you think everything's beneath you.


----------



## agricola (Jun 4, 2017)

cyril_smear said:


> Spell it out to me instead then of making out you have an overarching knowledge of everything.
> 
> You come across as though you think everything's beneath you.



TBH most of your posts have been below those of Pickman's.


----------



## cyril_smear (Jun 4, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> over your head, obvs



That's the equivcalent of saying during an argument 'that's the problem, you don't understand' which in my experience generally means the person who said it is on to a loser.


----------



## Rimbaud (Jun 4, 2017)

MightyTibberton said:


> Possibly, but having ISIS pages on Facebook, and jihadi (and far right, and all sorts of other extremist crap) on YouTube isn't great and I think those companies should be asked to do more to get rid of it.



Ban far-right crap and there will be howls to ban leftist stuff too. It would not set a good precedent.


----------



## cyril_smear (Jun 4, 2017)

agricola said:


> TBH most of your posts have been below those of Pickman's.



Most of his have been below mine depending how you look at things. I think i posted first in this thread so you could argue that all his posts are below mine.


----------



## Johnny Vodka (Jun 4, 2017)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> This has to be the week where the nation at large finally talks about active UK support for Islamic extremism. It is utter dereliction for press, politicians and even citizens to not especially underline the Saudi issue



But they won't.  Instead we'll hear over and over again how JC supported the IRA or whatever.


----------



## agricola (Jun 4, 2017)

cyril_smear said:


> Most of his have been below mine depending how you look at things. I think i posted first in this thread so you could argue that all his posts are below mine.



Perhaps, though Pickman's joined before you did.


----------



## MightyTibberton (Jun 4, 2017)

I'm not a free speech absolutist. 

And I think social media, where kids basically live these days, are fair game to make safe from terrorist propoganda. 

Unfortunately, like so many Internet randoms, I have no particular expertise in this area and no specific solutions to offer. . .


----------



## cyril_smear (Jun 4, 2017)

agricola said:


> Perhaps, though Pickman's joined before you did.



Still a prick though.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

cyril_smear said:


> Spell it out to me instead then of making out you have an overarching knowledge of everything.
> 
> You come across as though you think everything's beneath you.


jesus are you so thick you can't see when someone's being nice


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

cyril_smear said:


> Still a prick though.


yeh. cos obvs hoping you never have to deal with a knife or bomb is me being SO fucking superior.


----------



## cyril_smear (Jun 4, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> jesus are you so thick you can't see when someone's being nice



No

Next


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 4, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> you can believe that, but you don't know how they'd be. if they're prepared to die and then rather unexpectedly find themselves alive, it's by no means impossible they might sing like a canary. after all, you don't give someone training in coping with interrogation if they're unlikely to need it.


True we don't know how they would be and at this point we don't know what their background is never mind their level of training.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

cyril_smear said:


> No
> 
> Next


yeh. well, you were just so blind.


----------



## cyril_smear (Jun 4, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh. cos obvs hoping you never have to deal with a knife or bomb is me being SO fucking superior.



What can I say, your persona on here precedes you. You just come across as a dick the majority of the time.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

cyril_smear said:


> What can I say, your persona on here precedes you. You just come across as a dick the majority of the time.


yeh. do you have anything of substance to add to the thread or are you happy to continue your ennui-inducing chain of dull ad hominems?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> Someone should have slapped the daft cunt copper around the head and said "so, do you think internment worked well in Ulster, you dumb fuck?".


there's still time


----------



## weltweit (Jun 4, 2017)

At least so far there seem to have been no leaks from the Americans, assuming they are still in the loop on this.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

weltweit said:


> At least so far there seem to have been no leaks from the Americans, assuming they are still in the loop on this.


give them time, weltweit, it's only 9am on the eastern seaboard.


----------



## agricola (Jun 4, 2017)

weltweit said:


> At least so far there seem to have been no leaks from the Americans, assuming they are still in the loop on this.



There is no need, their President is making himself look a dick over this without any help from them.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 4, 2017)

cyril_smear said:


> Point?



Point? Fucking point??? gtfo


----------



## weltweit (Jun 4, 2017)

Who else had never heard of this "Run Hide Tell" business before?


----------



## planetgeli (Jun 4, 2017)

agricola said:


> There is no need, their President is making himself look a dick over this without any help from them.



Apparently he's on Twitter saying how this proves there is no argument for gun control. Covfefe.


----------



## cyril_smear (Jun 4, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh. do you have anything of substance to add to the thread or are you happy to continue your ennui-inducing chain of dull ad hominems?



Yes, as long as you let me get the last word in.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

weltweit said:


> Who else had never heard of this "Run Hide Tell" business before?


it's another great government communication success


----------



## MightyTibberton (Jun 4, 2017)

weltweit said:


> Who else had never heard of this "Run Hide Tell" business before?



I read about it recently. I can't recall where exactly - the internet, I suspect! 

I was reading an American magazine site (one of the Jezebel family) recently and they had a story on the "active shooter" training that is apparently quite routine in US workplaces! I think they had a similar tactic explained to them. 

I remember being online after the Westminster attack and somehow thinking it would be more of a big deal around the world. For some reason - probably to do with election recounts - I ended up on a site for a Wisconsin newspaper and there was a report of a shooting incident that had killed four people - the same as the death tool at the time from Westminster - and I don't think it was even the lead news item - it was some sort of family quarrel, I think, that had escalated.


----------



## MightyTibberton (Jun 4, 2017)

*May wants to been up Tpims to allow terror suspects to be forced to move home, Duncan Smith claims*

*Iain Duncan Smith,* the Conservative former work and pensions secretary, told the World this Weekend that Therese May will probably try to toughen up Tpims (terrorism prevention and investigation measures). These are the the measures introduced by the coalition to place restrictions on being who are suspected of being terrorists but who have not been convicted of an offence. They replaced control orders, introduced by Labour, which were tougher, but which were being challenged in the courts.

Duncan Smith, who served in the coalition cabinet, said that was one of the things May was referring to when she spoke about toughening anti-terror laws. (See 11.56am.) He was asked if that meant internment and he replied:


----------



## weltweit (Jun 4, 2017)

This kind of attack did not require a bomb or the purchase of bomb making materials however mundane, so the only predictor of such an attack is the radicalisation of the individuals concerned. 

And it seems to me the only way the authorities are likely to pick up this radicalisation is either through the detailed monitoring of masses of online activity or the reporting of these people by their nearest and dearest.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

MightyTibberton said:


> I read about it recently. I can't recall where exactly - the internet, I suspect!
> 
> I was reading an American magazine site (one of the Jezebel family) recently and they had a story on the "active shooter" training that is apparently quite routine in US workplaces! I think they had a similar tactic explained to them.
> 
> I remember being online after the Westminster attack and somehow thinking it would be more of a big deal around the world. For some reason - probably to do with election recounts - I ended up on a site for a Wisconsin newspaper and there was a report of a shooting incident that had killed four people - the same as the death tool at the time from Westminster - and I don't think it was even the lead news item - it was some sort of family quarrel, I think, that had escalated.



Met police use 'run, hide, tell' warning for first time during London terrorist attack


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 4, 2017)

Wilf said:


> In practice, if he/Labour were to go for at and make an all out attack around Libya and Saudi, they'd have to do over 3 days this week.  If they could manage that, there will be an onslaught from pretty much every news/print outlet and it will risk making things even worse.  But then he really does have to do it, not even primarily for electoral reasons. If you can't manage a bit of unbridled truth when people have been slaughtered by a toxic combination of warped Islamism and western foreign policy, it's not wroth bothering.


It's challenging the warped Islamism that people find difficult , they think they have to be Muslim to do so or be an expert or a scholar. the Islamacists hate the west, they think it's degenerate, that includes many of the freedoms and gains that have been fought very hard for by us and other generations .but for sections of the 'left' they would rather cuddle up to CAGE, anti Prevent campaigns, and 'anti imperialism' . If there is one example that shows why the 'left' got divorced from the working class it's lefts love of Islamacists imo.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 4, 2017)

May's close advisors really are crap; imagine thinking a phrase as confessional and valedictory as "enough is enough" appropriate 3 days away from the GE.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> It's challenging the warped Islamism that people find difficult , they think they have to be Muslim to do so or be an expert or a scholar. the Islamacists hate the west, they think it's degenerate, that includes many of the freedoms and gains that have been fought very hard for by us and other generations .but for sections of the 'left' they would rather cuddle up to CAGE, anti Prevent campaigns, and 'anti imperialism' . If there is one example that shows why the 'left' got divorced from the working class it's lefts love of Islamacists imo.


as was being pointed out here more than 10 years ago, yet the left have learned nothing


----------



## planetgeli (Jun 4, 2017)

brogdale said:


> May's close advisors really are crap; imagine thinking a phrase as confessional and valedictory as "enough is enough" appropriate 3 days away from the GE.



Yeah, it's a good job electioneering is suspended eh? What with May's speech, IDS talking about some kind of nuanced internment and Boris Johnson pretending to be literary saying "the wells of tolerance are running dry".

Cunts.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

planetgeli said:


> Yeah, it's a good job electioneering is suspended eh? What with May's speech, IDS talking about some kind of nuanced internment and Boris Johnson pretending to be literary saying "the wells of tolerance are running dry".
> 
> Cunts.


no one has seen such dribbling since stanley matthews' heyday


----------



## J Ed (Jun 4, 2017)

Maybe I'm wrong, maybe the dignity of Labour actually respecting not campaigning for a day will pay dividends.


----------



## Mr Moose (Jun 4, 2017)

The Tories response is shocking stuff even for those bastards, May implying that, were it not for wet behind the ears do-gooders  she could sort this out, despite her 5 years in the Home Office, her votes for the Iraq War and her sucking up to the Saudis as PM. Her 'enough is enough' needs shooting down in flames.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 4, 2017)

J Ed said:


> Maybe I'm wrong, maybe the dignity of Labour actually respecting not campaigning for a day will pay dividends.


I don't think you're wrong; some candidates are even managing to desist from digital/SM campaigning, save from RTing Corbyn's statement. I just can't imagine that folk would take kindly to door-knocking VID today.


----------



## D'wards (Jun 4, 2017)

My friend's son was in the area on his stag night. No of the group were hurt but they had to evacuate the bar and saw a dead body. 

He sounds a bit traumatised today.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 4, 2017)

Mr Moose said:


> The Tories response is shocking stuff even for those bastards, May implying that, were it not for wet behind the ears do-gooders  she could sort this out, despite her 5 years in the Home Office, her votes for the Iraq War and her sucking up to the Saudis as PM. Her 'enough is enough' needs shooting down in flames.


If people give it a second thought, "enough is enough" very clearly represents shooting herself in both feet.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 4, 2017)

D'wards said:


> He sounds a bit traumatised today.


Understandably so.


----------



## scifisam (Jun 4, 2017)

brogdale said:


> If people give it a second thought, "enough is enough" very clearly represents shooting herself in both feet.



It's a bit bloody insulting to the victims of other attacks, isn't it? Manchester doesn't count or something? But it's a repetition of simple words and that's what people want


----------



## D'wards (Jun 4, 2017)

brogdale said:


> Understandably so.


Yeah, he feels guilty cos it was his do and they were all put in a terrifying and upsetting situation.
The ripples that these incidents make in hundreds or thousands of people's lives is horrendous.


----------



## Casually Red (Jun 4, 2017)

Geri said:


> I think there were failures afterwards which allowed space for extremists to operate, which doesn't mean the intervention itself was wrong.




Fuck me it's like listening to tony blair. This is pure Blair .

Bollocks . They were using extremists just like these vermin as their boots on the ground in Libya , to directly effect regime change . Which had no UN authorisation whatsoever . They ..the state.. were funnelling them in directly beforehand, not making " mistakes " later  . Working directly with them . As well as working directly with them ...the terrorists and extremists...on previous assassination plots . They justified their criminal intervention on the basis of Clintons R2P horseshit . The entire criminal debacle and act of aggression was orchestrated by imperialist criminals using these dogs and rats as their armed proxies . Which relied heavily on wild claims emanating from people just like these nutcases being taken as gospel by the mass media despite no corroboration whatsoever . And happily spread and disseminated by useful idiots like yourself who supported them and the western imperialist bombing campaigns . And set about deliberately effecting illegal regime change , acting as Al qaedas airforce . Which you supported .

How Manchester bomber Salman Abedi was radicalised by his links to Libya

Mistakes afterwards my arse . It was a criminal act of aggression that greatly empowered these criminals . criminals whom the western powers have traditionally sought to use as their fascist attack dogs from Egypt to Afghanistan, Syria, Libya etc . Their historic ally and armed proxy against pan Arabism , progressive secular nationalism and socialism since Nassers era . And criminals whose ideological base is firmly rooted in the rotten swamp which is Saudi funded hate preaching and intolerance . The swamp that desperately needs drained if this scourge will ever be properly tackled .

Mistakes afterwards ..Christ almighty .


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

Casually Red said:


> Fuck me it's like listening to tony blair. This is pure Blair .
> 
> Bollocks . They were using extremists just like these vermin as their boots on the ground in Libya , to directly effect regime change . Which had no UN authorisation whatsoever . They ..the state.. were funnelling them in directly beforehand, not making " mistakes " later  . Working directly with them . As well as working directly with them ...the terrorists and extremists...on previous assassination plots . They justified their criminal intervention on the basis of Clintons R2P horseshit . The entire criminal debacle and act of aggression was orchestrated by imperialist criminals using these dogs and rats as their armed proxies . Which relied heavily on wild claims emanating from people just like these nutcases being taken as gospel by the mass media despite no corroboration whatsoever . And happily spread and disseminated by useful idiots like yourself who supported them and the western imperialist bombing campaigns . And set about deliberately effecting illegal regime change , acting as Al qaedas airforce . Which you supported .
> 
> ...


 welcome back


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 4, 2017)

it all Hilary Clinton fault


*shakes fist at the sky*


----------



## rekil (Jun 4, 2017)

There goes the thread. Reminder that this cunt has been cheering on jihadis for the duration of his whole miserable life.




			
				name that shithead said:
			
		

> Last month there were an average of 87 armed attacks on US forces each day.
> 
> That was higher than August, which was in turn higher than July, which was in turn higher than June.
> 
> ...


Al Zarqawi the anti-imperialist legend, up there with Carlos.


----------



## Wilf (Jun 4, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> It's challenging the warped Islamism that people find difficult , they think they have to be Muslim to do so or be an expert or a scholar. the Islamacists hate the west, they think it's degenerate, that includes many of the freedoms and gains that have been fought very hard for by us and other generations .but for sections of the 'left' they would rather cuddle up to CAGE, anti Prevent campaigns, and 'anti imperialism' . If there is one example that shows why the 'left' got divorced from the working class it's lefts love of Islamacists imo.


I think there are different shades and strands to this failure. One part of it the entanglement of liberals with top down state multiculturalism, the sort of thing Kenan Malik has railed against.  Another was the swp and others courting of Islamism in Respect (in some ways, just another version of liberalism, regardless of the swp's radical pretensions).  Any kind of left that emerges from all this - and the probable defeat of Corbyn this week - needs to start doing solidarity, anti-racism and class politics, not the kind multiculturalism that is at once highly managerial and also unwilling to oppose oppression.  And then there's the Saudi link, what really should be a fucking open goal.  This is all a way back to the working class - and an engagement with reality.


----------



## Casually Red (Jun 4, 2017)

weltweit said:


> This kind of attack did not require a bomb or the purchase of bomb making materials however mundane, so the only predictor of such an attack is the radicalisation of the individuals concerned.
> 
> And it seems to me the only way the authorities are likely to pick up this radicalisation is either through the detailed monitoring of masses of online activity or the reporting of these people by their nearest and dearest.



Might make more sense to tackle the radicalisation at its root . But that would involve pissing off the Saudis and qataris ..indeed actually dropping bombs on them as opposed to selling them to them for many billions . So it won't happen . Nothing of any substance will be done to tackle this . Nothing .


----------



## J Ed (Jun 4, 2017)

Casually Red said:


> Fuck me it's like listening to tony blair. This is pure Blair .



Blair was and iirc remains against the intervention in Libya...


----------



## RD2003 (Jun 4, 2017)

Casually Red said:


> Nothing of any substance will be done to tackle this . Nothing .


This is an absolute certainty.


----------



## Casually Red (Jun 4, 2017)

J Ed said:


> Blair was and iirc remains against the intervention in Libya...



Because he was on a very good earner trying to turn Gadaffi into Gerry Adams for a western audience . And beause only a complete lunatic would want to be tarred with the brush of failure twice in a row . 

It's like listening to him explaining away the Iraq debacle . Imperialist aggression and regime change justified , just some unfortunate mistakes afterwards that caused a human cataclysm and the empowerment of fanatics and head cases .


----------



## J Ed (Jun 4, 2017)

Casually Red said:


> Because he was on a very good earner trying to turn Gadaffi into Gerry Adams for a western audience .



I know I just think it's funny, especially when you are accusing others of being like Blair!


----------



## 8den (Jun 4, 2017)

Not sure if this has been posted before, Peter Kirkham, fmr Senior Investigating Officer, the Met savages May's police cuts and calls the Tory claim that there are more armed police on the streets as a lie.


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Jun 4, 2017)

8den said:


> Not sure if this has been posted before, Peter Kirkham, fmr Senior Investigating Officer, the Met savages May's police cuts and calls the Tory claim that there are more armed police on the streets as a lie.




OK he's a cop asking for more police funding, but the 'accusing May of outright lying' part is nice.


----------



## Casually Red (Jun 4, 2017)

Wilf said:


> And then there's the Saudi link, what really should be a fucking open goal.



It's vital to British " national interests " that the Saudi regime be propped up . The Saudi regime is actively engaged in polarising the Muslim world in its rivalry with Iran and others . It actively spreads hate , ignorance, sectarianism and intolerance on a global level , using not just mosques and schools but satellite tv and the like of Qatar too . Al jazeera Arabic has openly championed genocide in Syria , for example . That's the source of this poison that's infecting minds . 
Ian Paisley for example never actively told anyone to out and shoot , stab or bomb roman Catholics..at least not after the 1960s . But he sure as hell whipped up the hatred and intolerance that led directly to it . Got people to the point were they we're ready to support it and engage in it while keeping his own hands clean . The Saudis are no different in that respect . they are the catalyst for radicalisation .

The ruling classes in Britain, Europe  and the US will do nothing to rein the House of Saud in, absolutely nothing . so this won't stop . It's you and me along with millions of other Arabs and Muslims who'll suffer the consequences .


----------



## Mr Moose (Jun 4, 2017)

brogdale said:


> If people give it a second thought, "enough is enough" very clearly represents shooting herself in both feet.



You would hope so, but the appeal of right wing politicians rarely seems to need to add up.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jun 4, 2017)

Wilf said:


> I think there are different shades and strands to this failure. One part of it the entanglement of liberals with top down state multiculturalism, the sort of thing Kenan Malik has railed against.  Another was the swp and others courting of Islamism in Respect (in some ways, just another version of liberalism, regardless of the swp's radical pretensions).



Presuming this from Malik was posted here after Manchester but it deserves another posting because it's spot on

How did the left radicalism of my Manchester youth give way to Islamism? | Kenan Malik


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 4, 2017)

Casually Red said:


> Al jazeera Arabic has openly championed genocide in Syria , for example . .


Do you have a link for that?


----------



## J Ed (Jun 4, 2017)

Bernie Gunther said:


> OK he's a cop asking for more police funding, but the 'accusing May of outright lying' part is nice.



This needs to go viral..


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 4, 2017)

Bernie Gunther said:


> OK he's a cop asking for more police funding, but the 'accusing May of outright lying' part is nice.



Makes a change from DB's usual Tory love ins!


----------



## teqniq (Jun 4, 2017)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Do you have a link for that?


Surely you jest?


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 4, 2017)

He's not a copper mind.


----------



## rekil (Jun 4, 2017)

J Ed said:


> I know I just think it's funny, especially when you are accusing others of being like Blair!


Just ignore the fash cunt. He loves seeing the brits "getting a bloody nose in a conflict against an enemy" which is why he's scampered back on here with a semi for a good gloat and a cry about Gaddafi.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 4, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> He's not a copper mind.



Got kicked out for having flat feet.


----------



## Yata (Jun 4, 2017)

8den said:


> Not sure if this has been posted before, Peter Kirkham, fmr Senior Investigating Officer, the Met savages May's police cuts and calls the Tory claim that there are more armed police on the streets as a lie.



sister works at meadowhall they had a practice scenario for a terrorist attack took the coppers about 20-25 mins to get there

eta: this was in march


----------



## Casually Red (Jun 4, 2017)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Do you have a link for that?




From the horses mouth . This is mainstream programming in the Arab world thanks to our chums in Qatar .


----------



## 1%er (Jun 4, 2017)

8den said:


> Not sure if this has been posted before, Peter Kirkham, fmr Senior Investigating Officer, the Met savages May's police cuts and calls the Tory claim that there are more armed police on the streets as a lie.



Ex chief superintendent Dal Babu said the same on one of the news reports this morning about the cuts in police numbers (CNN or BBC World news)


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 4, 2017)

@PaulBrandITV - BREAKING: One member of public accidentally shot by police in crossfire, as officers tried to take down the attackers.


----------



## MightyTibberton (Jun 4, 2017)

Different take on coverage and copycat crimes.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 4, 2017)

8den said:


> Not sure if this has been posted before, Peter Kirkham, fmr Senior Investigating Officer, the Met savages May's police cuts and calls the Tory claim that there are more armed police on the streets as a lie.



That lovely labrador's making me feel safer already


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 4, 2017)

Eight armed plod fired 50 rounds last night, resulting in a civilian casualty, now on BBC, ITV & AP. 50 fucking rounds???


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Eight armed plod fired 50 rounds last night, resulting in a civilian casualty, now on BBC, ITV & AP. 50 fucking rounds???


yeh. the terrorists were unfortunate to be caught in the way, meaning the civilian was only wounded and not killed.


----------



## maomao (Jun 4, 2017)

One of the eyewitness in the Guardian says the police threw a grenade.  Is this possible? What kind of grenades are the police throwing about now? Teargas?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

maomao said:


> One of the eyewitness in the Guardian says the police threw a grenade.  Is this possible? What kind of grenades are the police throwing about now? Teargas?


flash-bangs?


----------



## Casually Red (Jun 4, 2017)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Eight armed plod fired 50 rounds last night, resulting in a civilian casualty, now on BBC, ITV & AP. 50 fucking rounds???



No fan of plod but with 3 deranged punters running at them wearing fake suicide vests just days after a suicide bomber caused utter carnage in Manchester that's hardly surprising . 2 3rd bursts apiece is what it averages out at . It's not bank robbers . It's 3 cunts who might explode any second and kill scores, including plod. People who set out to cause indiscriminate carnage and who'll not surrender under any circumstances . Shooting until they stop twitching is pretty much how you deal with that scenario .


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 4, 2017)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Eight armed plod fired 50 rounds last night, resulting in a civilian casualty, now on BBC, ITV & AP. 50 fucking rounds???



I've no idea if 50 rounds is a lot or not. Is that an unusual amount?


----------



## Casually Red (Jun 4, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> flash-bangs?



Most likely . Disorientation would be the desired effect .


----------



## 8den (Jun 4, 2017)

Bernie Gunther said:


> OK he's a cop asking for more police funding, but the 'accusing May of outright lying' part is nice.



Ex coppers going on about how Tory cuts have made the streets less safe is probably the last thing the Tories want to hear right now, aside from "Mr Trump called and was wondering if he could pop around, say Tuesday?"


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 4, 2017)

maomao said:


> One of the eyewitness in the Guardian says the police threw a grenade.  Is this possible? What kind of grenades are the police throwing about now? Teargas?



Stun/concussion more than likely - militarisation of the MET?


----------



## 8den (Jun 4, 2017)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Eight armed plod fired 50 rounds last night, resulting in a civilian casualty, now on BBC, ITV & AP. 50 fucking rounds???



That's about a pistol magazine worth each. Not a lot for US police, but an eyebrow-raising amount for UK police. But then there were multiple attackers.


----------



## Casually Red (Jun 4, 2017)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> I've no idea if 50 rounds is a lot or not. Is that an unusual amount?



Yup . But the usual scenario is an armed criminal or some such . Not a kamikaze gang of jihadists on the rampage wearing scary looking contraptions on their torsos . That's quite an unusual occurrence . Although becoming less unusual .


----------



## Supine (Jun 4, 2017)

The difference between a bomb going off or not could be milliseconds. I'm not surprised they shot with extreme predjuce to minimise the risk.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

Supine said:


> The difference between a bomb going off or not could be milliseconds. I'm not surprised they shot with extreme predjuce to minimise the risk.


being as they shot a member of the public perhaps next time they could try to shoot with extreme accuracy


----------



## maomao (Jun 4, 2017)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Stun/concussion more than likely - militarisation of the MET?


Or a confused and scared member of the public misinterpreting sounds in the chaos.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 4, 2017)

Casually Red said:


> No fan of plod but with 3 deranged punters running at them wearing fake suicide vests just days after a suicide bomber caused utter carnage in Manchester that's hardly surprising . 2 3rd bursts apiece is what it averages out at . It's not bank robbers . It's 3 cunts who might explode any second and kill scores, including plod. People who set out to cause indiscriminate carnage and who'll not surrender under any circumstances . Shooting until they stop twitching is pretty much how you deal with that scenario .



I get that, as I said up thread, I'd have shot the cunts. 50 rounds is excessive in a public space, at night, with civvies running all over the shop. Luck really was on plods side last night!


----------



## LDC (Jun 4, 2017)

There's military units that have been on the ground in Manchester after the bomb there, wouldn't be unlikely that they were in London as a QRF too. 

The CTSFO teams train in explosive entry and I think have access to flash-bang grenades as well, not to mention eye witnesses are pretty unreliable when it comes to stuff like that grenade quote.


----------



## LDC (Jun 4, 2017)

Mr.Bishie said:


> I get that, as I said up thread, I'd have shot the cunts. 50 rounds is excessive in a public space, at night, with civvies running all over the shop. Luck really was on plods side last night!



That's not excessive against 3 attackers at all tbh.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> There's military units that have been on the ground in Manchester after the bomb there, wouldn't be unlikely that they were in London as a QRF too.
> 
> The CTSFO teams train in explosive entry and I think have access to flash-bang grenades as well, not to mention eye witnesses are pretty unreliable when it comes to stuff like that grenade quote.


they'd have to be a bloody qrf to be there before the cops stopped firing


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> That's not excessive against 3 attackers at all tbh.


how extensive is your firearms experience?


----------



## 1%er (Jun 4, 2017)

Mr.Bishie said:


> I get that, as I said up thread, I'd have shot the cunts. 50 rounds is excessive in a public space, at night, with civvies running all over the shop. Luck really was on plods side last night!


I wonder if we will ever hear the number out of that 50 shots that hit the targets and how many didn't


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 4, 2017)

maomao said:


> Or a confused and scared member of the public misinterpreting sounds in the chaos.



No idea, be interested to know though.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 4, 2017)

1%er said:


> I wonder if we will ever hear the number out of that 50 shots that hit the targets and how many didn't



We did get to hear how many rounds were pumped into Jean Charles's face.


----------



## LDC (Jun 4, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> how extensive is your firearms experience?



Reasonable.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 4, 2017)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> That's not excessive against 3 attackers at all tbh.



Errr, yes it is, due to environment.


----------



## MightyTibberton (Jun 4, 2017)

Terrible to hear that 21 of the injured are in "critical" condition. I hope they can all be saved.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 4, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> being as they shot a member of the public perhaps next time they could try to shoot with extreme accuracy





Mr.Bishie said:


> I get that, as I said up thread, I'd have shot the cunts. 50 rounds is excessive in a public space, at night, with civvies running all over the shop. Luck really was on plods side last night!



It's a shame we didn't have Urban's own sharp-shooters on the scene. Would have saved a lot of lives. Someone call Theresa May and inform her we've found the solution to the nation's security concerns - Pickman's Model and Mr. Bishie!


----------



## LDC (Jun 4, 2017)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Errr, yes it is, due to environment.



Fire until threat is neutralized, if it takes 2 rounds and you fire more that's excessive. If it takes 50 and you fire 50 then it's reasonable. I guess the investigation will decide if it was excessive given the circumstances. *Caveat of believing/having faith in investigations.

Anyway, IMO all this is a distraction. RIP to the dead, and a swift recovery to the injured. And fuck, what a mess we are in.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

Mr.Bishie said:


> We did get to hear how many rounds were pumped into Jean Charles's face.


and they still managed to miss his head once.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> It's a shame we didn't have Urban's own sharp-shooters on the scene. Would have saved a lot of lives. Someone call Theresa May and inform her we've found the solution to the nation's security concerns - Pickman's Model and Mr. Bishie!


yeh i see you're not so keen yourself to step forwards at times like these.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 4, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh i see you're not so keen yourself to step forwards at times like these.



That doesn't even make any sense.


----------



## Casually Red (Jun 4, 2017)

Mr.Bishie said:


> I get that, as I said up thread, I'd have shot the cunts. 50 rounds is excessive in a public space, at night, with civvies running all over the shop. Luck really was on plods side last night!



I think luck was on quite a few civilians side too with that amount of lead flying  . But these were potential suicide bombers , most likely running directly at the cops for their finale . war conditions pretty much . It's actual combat when alls said and done once it gets to that stage . 

Don't be surprised if the state put permanent snipers on the rooftops of sensitive areas now, that sort of thing . this is much too easily replicated .


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> That doesn't even make any sense.


it does if you're able to think.

you're very keen to put me and Mr.Bishie up front but not so keen to put yourself there. i don't know how that can be made clearer.


----------



## bi0boy (Jun 4, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> being as they shot a member of the public perhaps next time they could try to shoot with extreme accuracy



Maybe they did try this time but weren't successful. Perhaps all armed police ought to be taken off firearms duties until they have attained a proven ability to shoot potential suicide bombers on crowded streets with no injury to the public, ever. Perhaps you'd like to offer them your advice as to how this might be achieved whilst protecting the public from armed terrorists and criminals?


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 4, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> it does if you're able to think.
> 
> you're very keen to put me and Mr.Bishie up front but not so keen to put yourself there. i don't know how that can be made clearer.



You're still not making any sense.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

bi0boy said:


> Maybe they did try this time but weren't successful. Perhaps all armed police ought to be taken off firearms duties until they have attained a proven ability to shoot potential suicide bombers on crowded streets with no injury to the public, ever. Perhaps you'd like to offer them your advice as to how this might be achieved whilst protecting the public from armed terrorists and criminals?


i await an invitation from cressida dick.


----------



## Casually Red (Jun 4, 2017)

MightyTibberton said:


> Terrible to hear that 21 of the injured are in "critical" condition. I hope they can all be saved.



Saw a number of reports they stabbed one young woman up to 15 times . She was pleading for help from passersby, no idea whether she survived or not  . The scale and nature of the injuries wil be just dreadful . Life shattering . And that's just physical trauma .


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 4, 2017)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> It's a shame we didn't have Urban's own sharp-shooters on the scene. Would have saved a lot of lives. Someone call Theresa May and inform her we've found the solution to the nation's security concerns - Pickman's Model and Mr. Bishie!



Tell that to the family of Jean Charles. Like Pickmans, I get a twitch on when it comes to armed plod!


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> You're still not making any sense.


i'm surprised to find you have such difficulty with words of one syllable.


----------



## Edie (Jun 4, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> it does if you're able to think.
> 
> you're very keen to put me and Mr.Bishie up front but not so keen to put yourself there. i don't know how that can be made clearer.


Jesus, can you shut up? This is embarrassing.


----------



## friedaweed (Jun 4, 2017)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> You're still not making any sense.


I think he's suggesting you'd "Run off home for your tea" whist they improved their kill streak on Urban Call Of Duty


----------



## 1%er (Jun 4, 2017)

Mr.Bishie said:


> We did get to hear how many rounds were pumped into Jean Charles's face.


We know how many shots hit him, do we know how many shots were fired in total? The IPCC report said 3 shots missed him completely and the original police report claimed he was shot 5 times, when in fact he was shot 8 times, was the total 11?

The Dick in-charge at the time of JCM is now the dick in charge of everything, she's done well for herself


----------



## 8den (Jun 4, 2017)

bi0boy said:


> Maybe they did try this time but weren't successful. Perhaps all armed police ought to be taken off firearms duties until they have attained a proven ability to shoot potential suicide bombers on crowded streets with no injury to the public, ever. Perhaps you'd like to offer them your advice as to how this might be achieved whilst protecting the public from armed terrorists and criminals?




while we're waiting we could have a long discussion about the rise of "Muslim extremism" and how it relates to the West's actions in the middle east, perhaps even proposing that maybe pumping billions of dollars in arms sales into an already unstable region, may not be a good long-term strategy for peace.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 4, 2017)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Fire until threat is neutralized..



If I'd taken that route in NI I'd have killed scores of people, mainly children.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 4, 2017)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Tell that to the family of Jean Charles. Like Pickmans, I get a twitch on when it comes to armed plod!



So how would you suggest the police tackle crazed terrorists on a murder spree? Stern looks and disapproving tweets?


----------



## kebabking (Jun 4, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> being as they shot a member of the public perhaps next time they could try to shoot with extreme accuracy



I'm afraid that if you think that 1/2 inch accuracy is available at night, with people running left, right and centre, and the pressure of time - the suicide belts being the big driver - then you've been watching too many movies.

The last time I shot at a suspected VBIED I fired 30 rounds in about 10 seconds, 2 of my colleagues did the same, and the bloke with the belt-fed machine gun (a 7.62 version of the minimi if the gear wonks are interested..) fired over 100 rounds. We started firing at about 150 yards with the vehicle doing 60mph or so, and stopped about 5 seconds after it veared off the road and went into a ditch.

Probably about half the rounds connected with the car.

The bomb team tried to do a recovery for weapons intelligence but there was too much enemy activity to get the bloke in rather than just the wheelbarrow - so we blew the car up with something whooshing and banging. There was a large secondary explosion...

50 rnds, at night in a crowded street to do dead three hostiles and only one CIVPOP - I think the Met did surprisingly well actually.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 4, 2017)

1%er said:


> We know how many shots hit him, do we know how many shots were fired in total? The IPCC report said 3 shots missed him completely and the original police report claimed he was shot 5 times, when in fact he was shot 8 times, was the total 11?
> 
> The Dick in-charge at the time of JCM is now the dick in charge of everything, she's done well for herself



9 rounds in the face in memory serves.


----------



## Mr Moose (Jun 4, 2017)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> You're still not making any sense.



You are missing the point. The important thing today is not to worry about having your throat slit over dinner, but whether we can slag off the Police. It's the kind of tactic that has made the left enduringly popular with folk. All the better if we can bring our extensive knowledge of ballistics to bear.


----------



## xenon (Jun 4, 2017)

1%er said:


> I wonder if we will ever hear the number out of that 50 shots that hit the targets and how many didn't



Corroner will. 

50 rounds doesn't sound excessive given what we've heard so far.


----------



## bi0boy (Jun 4, 2017)

Mr.Bishie said:


> If I'd taken that route in NI I'd have killed scores of people, mainly children.



Not heard of child suicide bombers targeting the public in NI before.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

Edie said:


> Jesus, can you shut up? This is embarrassing.


what's your point, caller?


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 4, 2017)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> So how would you suggest the police tackle crazed terrorists on a murder spree? Stern looks and disapproving tweets?



As I said, I'd have shot the cunts. It was the way that they went about it I have a problem with.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 4, 2017)

bi0boy said:


> Not heard of child suicide bombers targeting the public in NI before.



What the fuck would you know about it?


----------



## gosub (Jun 4, 2017)

Casually Red said:


> No fan of plod but with 3 deranged punters running at them wearing fake suicide vests just days after a suicide bomber caused utter carnage in Manchester that's hardly surprising . 2 3rd bursts apiece is what it averages out at . It's not bank robbers . It's 3 cunts who might explode any second and kill scores, including plod. People who set out to cause indiscriminate carnage and who'll not surrender under any circumstances . Shooting until they stop twitching is pretty much how you deal with that scenario .


Go further that off duty plod who got stabbed after rugby tackling one of the cunts - George Cross


----------



## bi0boy (Jun 4, 2017)

Mr.Bishie said:


> As I said, I'd have shot the cunts. It was the way that they went about it I have a problem with.



What way was that? Were you an eye witness to all three shootings?


----------



## bi0boy (Jun 4, 2017)

Mr.Bishie said:


> What the fuck would you know about it?



More than you know about these events, clearly.


----------



## xenon (Jun 4, 2017)

Do Police use jacketless rounds? Too limit pass through, what ever you call it.


----------



## 8den (Jun 4, 2017)

bi0boy said:


> Not heard of child suicide bombers targeting the public in NI before.



Or ever outside of the middle east. Your fucking point? And plenty of kids were collateral damage of the "struggle".


----------



## bi0boy (Jun 4, 2017)

8den said:


> Or ever outside of the middle east. Your fucking point? And plenty of kids were collateral damage of the "struggle".



I wasn't the one comparing supposed police tactics here with anything that happened in NI.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 4, 2017)

Casually Red said:


> No fan of plod but with 3 deranged punters running at them wearing fake suicide vests just days after a suicide bomber caused utter carnage in Manchester that's hardly surprising . 2 3rd bursts apiece is what it averages out at . It's not bank robbers . It's 3 cunts who might explode any second and kill scores, including plod. People who set out to cause indiscriminate carnage and who'll not surrender under any circumstances . Shooting until they stop twitching is pretty much how you deal with that scenario .


I might have missed something here, but is it the wisest thing to do to shoot at someone you think might have explosives tied around their body?


----------



## 1%er (Jun 4, 2017)

Mr.Bishie said:


> 9 rounds in the face in memory serves.


I think it was 8 according to the inquest, 7 to the head and one to the shoulder, but I'm happy to be corrected


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

8den said:


> Or ever outside of the middle east. Your fucking point? And plenty of kids were collateral damage of the "struggle".


carole anne kelly, brian stewart and julie livingstone leap to mind.


----------



## Edie (Jun 4, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> what's your point, caller?


That you have no idea what you are talking about, yet are spouting off. You know fuck all about firearms and fuck all about the kind of tactical decisions our police would have to take in extreme circumstances when trying to kill three armed terrorists on a rampage. Just be quiet, you don't know what you are talking about.


----------



## Edie (Jun 4, 2017)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I might have missed something here, but is it the wisest thing to do to shoot at someone you think might have explosives tied around their body?


Well clearly it was the wisest thing because they were dead within 8 minutes


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 4, 2017)

bi0boy said:


> More than you know about these events, clearly.



No, you really fucking don't.


----------



## 8den (Jun 4, 2017)

bi0boy said:


> I wasn't the one comparing supposed police tactics here with anything that happened in NI.



Apologises, misquote.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

Edie said:


> That you have no idea what you are talking about, yet are spouting off. You know fuck all about firearms and fuck all about the kind of tactical decisions our police would have to take in extreme circumstances when trying to kill three armed terrorists on a rampage. Just be quiet, you don't know what you are talking about.


if that's the case then i'll thank you to demonstrate your better knowledge by ripping me to shreds by argument rather than demeaning yourself by going "it's embarrassing". there's the difference between us, edie, when you post ignorant shit like you did the other day i engage with what you post rather than saying 'you have no idea what you are talking about, yet are spouting off'. go on, rip me apart. show you can string an argument together. won't hold my breath tho.


----------



## 1%er (Jun 4, 2017)

bi0boy said:


> Maybe they did try this time but weren't successful. Perhaps all armed police ought to be taken off firearms duties until they have attained a proven ability to shoot potential suicide bombers on crowded streets with no injury to the public, ever. Perhaps you'd like to offer them your advice as to how this might be achieved whilst protecting the public from armed terrorists and criminals?


Well yes they should, how many innocent members of the public being shot is reasonable to you?

I don't want an argument but none is the figure I put on it.


----------



## Mr Moose (Jun 4, 2017)

Mr.Bishie said:


> As I said, I'd have shot the cunts. It was the way that they went about it I have a problem with.



Should have shot them, but less violently? Shouldn't have worn green with blue?


----------



## xenon (Jun 4, 2017)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I might have missed something here, but is it the wisest thing to do to shoot at someone you think might have explosives tied around their body?



There are no better alternatives. Tazer, trunchen not good idea.


----------



## Edie (Jun 4, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> if that's the case then i'll thank you to demonstrate your better knowledge by ripping me to shreds by argument rather than demeaning yourself by going "it's embarrassing". there's the difference between us, edie, when you post ignorant shit like you did the other day i engage with what you post rather than saying 'you have no idea what you are talking about, yet are spouting off'. go on, rip me apart. show you can string an argument together. won't hold my breath tho.


If you want to debate the issues on the other thread, do that there not here. Frankly your argument there was extremely weak. This thread should be kept on topic though, and you should stop yourself talking bollocks about it in the circumstances.


----------



## Casually Red (Jun 4, 2017)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I might have missed something here, but is it the wisest thing to do to shoot at someone you think might have explosives tied around their body?



Running away very fast in the opposite direction and hoping they trip over  is the only other viable alternative I can think of . Options seem pretty limited at that point .


----------



## 8den (Jun 4, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> carole anne kelly, brian stewart and julie livingstone leap to mind.



or the McCool sisters. Sean O'Riordan was just 13 a member of Na Fianna killed throwing a petrol bomb.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 4, 2017)

8den said:


> Apologises, misquote.



I used my experience of NI as an analogy in reply to LynnDoyleCooper, bioboy shat on it.


----------



## Edie (Jun 4, 2017)

1%er said:


> Well yes they should, how many innocent members of the public being shot is reasonable to you?
> 
> I don't want an argument but none is the figure I put on it.


How many people is it okay for a terrorist to kill before we say it's okay for the police to shoot them?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

Edie said:


> If you want to debate the issues on the other thread, do that there not here. Frankly your argument there was extremely weak. This thread should be kept on topic though, and you should stop yourself talking bollocks about it in the circumstances.


yeh. it was an *example* not me trying to reprise the exchange here. but you can't stop yourself, it's ad hominem all the way for you, you've not engaged with what i've said at all. i don't think you can.


----------



## Casually Red (Jun 4, 2017)

xenon said:


> Do Police use jacketless rounds? Too limit pass through, what ever you call it.



That would be hollow point . And yes, they use those ones .


----------



## 1%er (Jun 4, 2017)

Edie said:


> How many people is it okay for a terrorist to kill before we say it's okay for the police to shoot them?


Well if it is known they are a terrorist again none would be my answer, I'm not sure what point you are trying to make


----------



## bi0boy (Jun 4, 2017)

1%er said:


> Well yes they should, how many innocent members of the public being shot is reasonable to you?
> 
> I don't want an argument but none is the figure I put on it.



Are you suggesting the police should beat armed terrorists and gun-wielding criminals into submission with their batons?


----------



## 1%er (Jun 4, 2017)

bi0boy said:


> Are you suggesting the police should beat armed terrorists and gun-wielding criminals into submission with their batons?


Where have I suggested that?

Again I ask, how many members of the public is it OK for the police to shoot?


----------



## Edie (Jun 4, 2017)

1%er said:


> Well yes they should, how many innocent members of the public being shot is reasonable to you?
> 
> I don't want an argument but none is the figure I put on it.


You don't understand what point I'm making? It's this: it is impossible, when shooting armed terrorists, at night, in a crowded public environment to eliminate any risk of shooting a member of the public.

That is not a hard thing to grasp.

So to achieve your zero chance of members of the public being shot by police, you would have to stop police carrying guns.

Given that our police, just last night, shot and killed three terrorists who were going round stabbing people indiscriminately, and therefore undoubtedly and AT RISK TO THEMSELVES, saved many more people lives. They should be applauded.


----------



## bi0boy (Jun 4, 2017)

1%er said:


> Where have I suggested that?
> 
> Again I ask, how many members of the public is it OK for the police to shoot?



Who said it is ok to shoot them? The point was that it can't be guaranteed that no one will ever be caught in the crossfire when police are shooting suspected suicide bombers. This fact shouldn't mean the police are disarmed.


----------



## teqniq (Jun 4, 2017)

What a fucking clown.

American President Responds to London Attack With Range of Awful Twitter Behavior


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 4, 2017)

Edie said:


> it is impossible, when shooting armed terrorists, at night, in a crowded public environment to eliminate any risk of shooting a member of the public



First problem. So how is that problem solved?


----------



## MightyTibberton (Jun 4, 2017)

teqniq said:


> What a fucking clown.
> 
> American President Responds to London Attack With Range of Awful Twitter Behavior


----------



## Casually Red (Jun 4, 2017)

1%er said:


> Well yes they should, how many innocent members of the public being shot is reasonable to you?
> 
> I don't want an argument but none is the figure I put on it.



It's unavoidable in this type of scenario . Which is essentially a combat scenario on a crowded street , war on the streets basically, for real . Everyone is in real danger once things have gone that far . The primary concern after Manchester will be that the fanatics don't get to detonate themselves in this situation . The fanatics determined what the police response would be . Planned it that way very deliberately .
If the cops had panicked and started shooting anyone who " looked Muslim " then there'd be legit grounds to have a go at them but this seemed pretty restrained to me given the circumstances and the other recent tragedy . thankfully these bozos didn't have the wherewithal to equip themselves with the real thing but the cops had no way of knowing that . And the fear and likelihood they possessed much more lethal equipment was very real .


----------



## Edie (Jun 4, 2017)

Mr.Bishie said:


> First problem. So how is that problem solved?


It can't be solved


----------



## Casually Red (Jun 4, 2017)

1%er said:


> Where have I suggested that?
> 
> Again I ask, how many members of the public is it OK for the police to shoot?



It's not a question of it being ok . It's a question of weighing up which course of action poses the greater risk to innocent life . There are no good outcomes. Just less bad ones .


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 4, 2017)

Casually Red said:


> It's unavoidable in this type of scenario.



It's perfectly avoidable.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 4, 2017)

Edie said:


> It can't be solved



Of course it can.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 4, 2017)

Are you going to tell us how, Mr.Bishie?


----------



## Edie (Jun 4, 2017)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Of course it can.


Please enlighten us?

Respect your opinion as ex-services btw


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

Edie said:


> It can't be solved


And it's with this sort of dismal effort that you attempt to show your expertise on the subject


----------



## 1%er (Jun 4, 2017)

Well I live in a country where the police kill thousands of innocent people every year, over 5,000 in just one city in the last ten years and I find it unacceptable here and I'm sure the people of the UK would find it unacceptable there. It will start with one or two and then just grow and grow, when will it be enough?

If you are prepared to accept innocent people being killed by the police because its "unavoidable", then you've lost already.


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 4, 2017)

teqniq said:


> What a fucking clown.
> 
> American President Responds to London Attack With Range of Awful Twitter Behavior



Can we get a travel ban against this cunt, imagine the idea of him now wanting to come to London


----------



## bi0boy (Jun 4, 2017)

1%er said:


> Well I live in a country where the police kill thousands of innocent people every year, over 5,000 in just one city in the last ten years and I find it unacceptable here and I'm sure the people of the UK would find it unacceptable there. It will start with one or two and then just grow and grow, when will it be enough?
> 
> If you are prepared to accept innocent people being killed by the police because its "unavoidable", then you've lost already.



It already started with "one or two" here decades ago, and it still shows no sign or rising to 5,000 per year. How soon can we expect such numbers?


----------



## Casually Red (Jun 4, 2017)

Mr.Bishie said:


> It's perfectly avoidable.



How is it avoidable ? Bearing in mind despite all the chaos only one innocent person was hit by a stray round . In circumstances we don't even precisely know yet . With respect I can't see how it's avoidable once things have gotten to that level of madness . People weren't deliberately blowing themselves up in Ireland . If the jig was up surrender was the preffered option . this is a death cult who deliberately target the innocent , inflict as many innocent casualties as possible with no regard for their own survival . They set out to die very deliberately . To ensure there's no choice but to shoot them .


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 4, 2017)

The attackers weren't armed with firearms. They could & should have been incapacitated by other means, be it taser. It was dark, it was a busy city street, people running scared in all directions. To fire 50 rounds between eight armed officers, was at best, foolish. Comms would have been all over the shop. To have only one civilian casualty was down to sheer pot luck on the MET's part.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 4, 2017)

Casually Red said:


> How is it avoidable ?



Assessing the situation before you is a start.


----------



## Mr Moose (Jun 4, 2017)

Mr.Bishie said:


> The attackers weren't armed with firearms. They could & should have been incapacitated by other means, be it taser. It was dark, it was a busy city street, people running scared in all directions. To fire 50 rounds between eight armed officers, was at best, foolish. Comms would have been all over the shop. To have only one civilian casualty was down to sheer pot luck on the MET's part.



You would taser someone with a suicide belt? Holy smoke. And I mean that literally.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

Mr Moose said:


> You would taser someone with a suicide belt? Holy smoke. And I mean that literally.


Why not? The cops have tasered pretty much every other sort of person,people covered in petrol, the blind, people with pacemakers...


----------



## 1%er (Jun 4, 2017)

bi0boy said:


> It already started with "one or two" here decades ago, and it still shows no sign or rising to 5,000 per year. How soon can we expect such numbers?


I hope you never do reach such numbers, but would it be acceptable if the number of innocent people becomes greater then the number of terrorist shot?

Are there reports on your news claiming that the street was crowed when the shots were fired by police?


----------



## MightyTibberton (Jun 4, 2017)

That's being put around as one of the rationales for wearing the fake suicide belts, isn't it? Not only does it make people less likely to intervene, but it also all but guarantees the police will shoot you rather than arresting you. 

(No expertise here, just what I've read.)


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

Being as the taser has a red spot laser so you know where you'll shoot I am not entirely facetious above


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 4, 2017)

Would you have let Jean Charles enter the tube before executing him? He could have been peacefully apprehended long before entering the station, let alone boarding a train & blowing it up with an imaginary bomb belt. 

The argument about shooting, tasering, etc etc of would be suicide bombers, is at best, bollocks.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

1%er said:


> I hope you never do reach such numbers, but would it be acceptable if the number of innocent people becomes greater then the number of terrorist shot?
> 
> Are there reports on your news claiming that the street was crowed when the shots were fired by police?


There were it seems lots of people behind glass windows in surrounding buildings. Some of which had bulletholes And no matter how it looks now, the shine always comes off a police operation 24-48 hours afterwards


----------



## Mr Moose (Jun 4, 2017)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I might have missed something here, but is it the wisest thing to do to shoot at someone you think might have explosives tied around their body?



From a safe distance to a reasonably isolated target, yes. Not a perfect world though, going to have to choose a least worse sometimes.

Unless of course the individual has Down's Syndrome or is an unfortunate child or possibly other vulnerable person roped in by some ISIS copying utter pervert - but clearly not the case last night.

But congrats - you got a like out of Pickman's which if nothing else does may make you think twice.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 4, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> Being as the taser has a red spot laser so you know where you'll shoot I am not entirely facetious above



And where should they taser a terrorist with a bomb jacket exactly? Given that electricity has this annoying tendency to travel.


----------



## xenon (Jun 4, 2017)

Mr.Bishie said:


> The attackers weren't armed with firearms. They could & should have been incapacitated by other means, be it taser. It was dark, it was a busy city street, people running scared in all directions. To fire 50 rounds between eight armed officers, was at best, foolish. Comms would have been all over the shop. To have only one civilian casualty was down to sheer pot luck on the MET's part.



Tazer a bomb vester sounds fucking stupid idea. 

They presumably didn't know they were fake before shooting.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> And where should they taser a terrorist with a bomb jacket exactly? Given that electricity has this annoying tendency to travel.


Not on the suicide belt.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 4, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> Not on the suicide belt.



 This really is a poor showing by you tonight, Pickman's.


----------



## cyril_smear (Jun 4, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> ad hominem



Is that your buzzword of the day or are you just trying to garner sympathy because people seem to take offence at you.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 4, 2017)

xenon said:


> Tazer a bomb vester sounds fucking stupid idea.
> 
> They presumably didn't know they were fake before shooting.



Of course they didn't, we know that. But whether it's gunfire, taser, it doesn't matter. It's a bollocks argument, shown to be so by the execution of Jean Charles.


----------



## Mr Moose (Jun 4, 2017)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Would you have let Jean Charles enter the tube before executing him? He could have been peacefully apprehended long before entering the station, let alone boarding a train & blowing it up with an imaginary bomb belt.
> 
> The argument about shooting, tasering, etc etc of would be suicide bombers, is at best, bollocks.



They shouldn't have shot him at all as he hadn't just been on a rampage stabbing the same young woman 15 times nor trying to behead another. The information was clearly not proven and moreover they shouldn't have lied their fucking arses off about it afterwards.

It's simply not the same.


----------



## Mr Moose (Jun 4, 2017)

cyril_smear said:


> Is that your buzzword of the day or are you just trying to garner sympathy because people seem to take offence at you.



Honestly, he doesn't seem to know what it means, but he does like it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> This really is a poor showing by you tonight, Pickman's.


So you say. But your opinion weighs as much as a butterfly as you don't seem to be able to give a reason for it. If you said 'this is shit because x y and z' I might be inclined to give a fuck what you think.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 4, 2017)

Mr Moose said:


> They shouldn't have shot him at all as he hadn't just been on a rampage stabbing the same young woman 15 times nor trying to behead another. The information was clearly not proven and moreover they shouldn't have lied their fucking arses off about it afterwards.
> 
> It's simply not the same.



Yes it is. They suspected him of carrying a suicide bomb.


----------



## Casually Red (Jun 4, 2017)

Mr.Bishie said:


> The attackers weren't armed with firearms. They could & should have been incapacitated by other means, be it taser. It was dark, it was a busy city street, people running scared in all directions. To fire 50 rounds between eight armed officers, was at best, foolish. Comms would have been all over the shop. To have only one civilian casualty was down to sheer pot luck on the MET's part.



The manchester rat wasnt armed with a firearm either , and yet he caused utter carnage . They gave a very deliberate impression they were armed with explosive vests . The risk they posed to human life was extremely severe . A tazer and it's electric current would be much more likely than a bullet to detonate a viable vest , a certainty in fact, and place police and civilians at much more risk . 

I don't disagree with you at all there was probably some amount of panic and confusion on the police side and only luck prevented more civilian casualties . Thats quite likely given human factors . But we're I'd disagree is that it was avoidable . This was deliberately engineered chaos . It was the atackers who had the inititive and who not only forced the response but deliberately determined its nature . In an instance like this any police force..even if it was the most progressive in the world..would have no other choice than to use deadly force . And deadly force against multiple moving targets that could explode any second will always entail stray rounds and ricochets . There's no avoiding that . 

Don't get me wrong, I think it's a healthy thing that people aren't automatically giving the likes of the met a licence to go on shooting sprees at the drop of a hat . But on this occasion I don't see how they'd an alternative to shooting this crew .


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

Mr Moose said:


> Honestly, he doesn't seem to know what it means, but he does like it.


It means having a pop at the person not the argument.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 4, 2017)

Casually Red said:


> The manchester rat wasnt armed with a firearm either , and yet he caused utter carnage .



He blew himself up. Nothing for plod to shoot at auld bean.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

Mr Moose said:


> They shouldn't have shot him at all as he hadn't just been on a rampage stabbing the same young woman 15 times nor trying to behead another. The information was clearly not proven and moreover they shouldn't have lied their fucking arses off about it afterwards.
> 
> It's simply not the same.


How nice it is that the officer in charge then is now met commissioner


----------



## agricola (Jun 4, 2017)

Mr.Bishie said:


> The attackers weren't armed with firearms. They could & should have been incapacitated by other means, be it taser. It was dark, it was a busy city street, people running scared in all directions. To fire 50 rounds between eight armed officers, was at best, foolish. Comms would have been all over the shop. To have only one civilian casualty was down to sheer pot luck on the MET's part.



Those officers almost certainly went to that not knowing how many suspects there were, whether some of them had firearms, whether those things they were wearing were real or not.  The only thing they probably did know prior to attending is that people were being attacked, and that a van had ran people over on the bridge.  Once they got there they probably saw people being attacked, by several people all wearing what looked like suicide vests.  To suggest that taser would be the preferred tactical option, of anyone armed with anything more than taser, in that scenario is absurd.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 4, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> So you say. But your opinion weighs as much as a butterfly as you don't seem to be able to give a reason for it. If you said 'this is shit because x y and z' I might be inclined to give a fuck what you think.



Tasering a person with a bomb vest is shit because the electricity would travel to the vest regardless of where on the body the person was shot. Because conduction.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Tasering a person with a bomb vest is shit because the electricity would travel to the vest regardless of where on the body the person was shot. Because conduction.


So you claim. As I'm sure you know the police have tasered someone wearing a suspected suicide belt before.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 4, 2017)

agricola said:


> Those officers almost certainly went to that not knowing how many suspects there were, whether some of them had firearms, whether those things they were wearing were real or not.  The only thing they probably did know prior to attending is that people were being attacked, and that a van had ran people over on the bridge.  Once they got there they probably saw people being attacked, by several people all wearing what looked like suicide vests.  To suggest that taser would be the preferred tactical option, of anyone armed with anything more than taser, in that scenario is absurd.



They most definitely went into that situation knowing they weren't armed with guns. They'd have had the info that no gunfire had been reported. 

I get twitchy when armed plod start getting twitchy.


----------



## 1%er (Jun 4, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> How nice it is that the officer in charge then is now met commissioner


Dick by name............


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 4, 2017)

Mr.Bishie said:


> They most definitely went into that situation knowing they weren't armed with guns. They'd have had the info that no gunfire had been reported.


That's a big assumption.


----------



## MightyTibberton (Jun 4, 2017)

A sort of official view:

 

I wonder if they had tazers? Is that something a firearms officer would carry alongside a gun? They're not tiny are they - don't they have a battery pack? 

Anyway. It seems a bit pointless to second guess an almost impossible choice in an almsot impossible situation. Yes, it does seem fortunate that an innocent person wasn't killed. Yes, it does seem that the attack was stopped remarkably quickly and that probably saved lives. It sounds like the attackers wanted to die. The Lee Rigby killers charged at armed police, didn't they? If they'd been wearing fake suicide vests perhaps they'd have got the martyrdom they wanted too.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 4, 2017)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Tasering a person with a bomb vest is shit because the electricity would travel to the vest regardless of where on the body the person was shot. Because conduction.



So a bullet wouldn't act as a detonator then?  It's a bollocks argument.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 4, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> That's a big assumption.



No, it's really not.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 4, 2017)

Mr.Bishie said:


> No, it's really not.


You said they *definitely* went into that situation knowing that they weren't armed with guns. How do you know? How did the police know?


----------



## A380 (Jun 4, 2017)

Mr.Bishie said:


> The attackers weren't armed with firearms. They could & should have been incapacitated by other means, be it taser. It was dark, it was a busy city street, people running scared in all directions. To fire 50 rounds between eight armed officers, was at best, foolish. Comms would have been all over the shop. To have only one civilian casualty was down to sheer pot luck on the MET's part.



You aren't really this fucking stupid are you? You are trolling right?


----------



## alex_ (Jun 4, 2017)

Mr.Bishie said:


> So a bullet wouldn't act as a detonator then?  It's a bollocks argument.



Depends upon the type of explosive - plastic definitely not - something cooked up in a gardens shed - who knows.

Alex


----------



## Mr Moose (Jun 4, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> It means having a pop at the person not the argument.



We know. It could be your motto after all.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> You said they *definitely* went into that situation knowing that they weren't armed with guns. How do you know? How did the police know?


I expect the people who phoned 999 would have mentioned people being knocked down and people being stabbed. Have you heard anything to suggest otherwise?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

Mr Moose said:


> We know. It could be your motto after all.


Another dribble of a post.

It could be my motto. But it isnt.


----------



## davesgcr (Jun 4, 2017)

Takes just a bit of courage for a BTP officer with a baton to engage. How many others would do so ?


----------



## Saul Goodman (Jun 4, 2017)

Mr.Bishie said:


> They most definitely went into that situation knowing they weren't armed with guns. They'd have had the info that no gunfire had been reported.
> 
> I get twitchy when armed plod start getting twitchy.


There's no way the cops could have known for certain they weren't armed. They could have assumed they weren't armed, but you know what they say about assumption.
That said, armed plod on the streets scares the shite out of me. I think I'd rather face a bank robber with a gun than an armed plod.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 4, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> I expect the people who phoned 999 would have mentioned people being knocked down and people being stabbed. Have you heard anything to suggest otherwise?


see Saul Goodman 's post up there ^


----------



## Casually Red (Jun 4, 2017)

Mr.Bishie said:


> He blew himself up.



Exactly . Which is why the cops feared his IS associates running around with bomb vests days later were about to do the very  same . The entire point of them making the fake vests in the first place .


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 4, 2017)

Saul Goodman said:


> There's no way the cops could have known for certain they weren't armed.



If they'd have been armed with guns, they'd have used them the moment they exited that van.


----------



## kebabking (Jun 4, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> I expect the people who phoned 999 would have mentioned people being knocked down and people being stabbed. Have you heard anything to suggest otherwise?



You are conflating the absence of evidence with evidence of absence.

Not only that, but you ignore - unlike the police - the possibility of the ramming/stabbing attack being a 'come on', with the hope being that tasered up coppers will come running in to be met by blokes with guns.

These episodes are not nearly as clear or well defined as you appear to think - they are chaos.


----------



## agricola (Jun 4, 2017)

Mr.Bishie said:


> No, it's really not.



It was two big assumptions.  

For a start, the incident is reported to have taken around eight minutes from the first call to Police to the shooting dead of the suspects.  That is eight minutes for the call to be answered, typed onto the system, routed to the various departments, for it to be recognized as serious (in order for firearms units to be sent), for the many, many calls that would almost certainly have been received reporting variations of the same incidents to be recognized and filtered as to what they contain, and for them to get there.  There is no way that they would have known with certainty what they were going into - how many suspects, what they were armed with, that no gunshots had been heard.  

This was not like the de Menezes shooting where they followed him around for hours.  This was an incident that lasted around eight minutes in total, and which would almost certainly have generated dozens, if not hundreds, of emergency calls during that time.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 4, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> You said they *definitely* went into that situation knowing that they weren't armed with guns. How do you know? How did the police know?



They'd have used them. Reports of gunfire. Come on. They're not going to go into such a situation blind.


----------



## LDC (Jun 4, 2017)

Mr.Bishie said:


> If they'd have been armed with guns, they'd have used them the moment they exited that van.



You're making speculations and pronouncing them as fact.


----------



## agricola (Jun 4, 2017)

Mr.Bishie said:


> They'd have used them. Reports of gunfire. Come on. They're not going to go into such a situation blind.



Look - do you know that no reports were made of gunfire at the scene?  If not, how is what you are saying not a massive assumption?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

kebabking said:


> You are conflating the absence of evidence with evidence of absence.
> 
> Not only that, but you ignore - unlike the police - the possibility of the ramming/stabbing attack being a 'come on', with the hope being that tasered up coppers will come running in to be met by blokes with guns.
> 
> These episodes are not nearly as clear or well defined as you appear to think - they are chaos.


We'll see what they knew in the coming period


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 4, 2017)

agricola said:


> Look - do you know that no reports were made of gunfire at the scene?  If not, how is what you are saying not a massive assumption?



Not 100%, no, but seeing as no gunfire had been witnessed, just frenzied knife attacks, plod knew this too.


----------



## Mr Moose (Jun 4, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> Another dribble of a post.
> 
> It could be my motto. But it isnt.



And yet 365 days a year it's what you do. No wonder it's seldom far from your mind.


----------



## friedaweed (Jun 4, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> Why not? The cops have tasered pretty much every other sort of person,people covered in petrol, the blind, people with pacemakers...


Remember that naked hippy the yanks tasered


----------



## Plumdaff (Jun 4, 2017)

They were in a situation where there were injured and dead people around them, and attackers actively pursuing people to attack them, wearing what could be suicide belts, which can be detonated in a half second. We're questioning why the police shot them? Really?


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 4, 2017)

agricola said:


> Look - do you know that no reports were made of gunfire at the scene?  If not, how is what you are saying not a massive assumption?



Why would reports of gunfire be made when there were none?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> see Saul Goodman 's post up there ^


I'll take that as a no then


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 4, 2017)

Mr.Bishie said:


> *Not 100%, no,* but seeing as no gunfire had been witnessed, just frenzied knife attacks, plod *knew *this too.


contradicting yourself in one post there.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 4, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> as was being pointed out here more than 10 years ago, yet the left have learned nothing


Yup. Do you remember the debate we had on another site about the UBA and their pickets of radical preachers? Months later we had posters calling out to open up a second front in Iraq.


----------



## Casually Red (Jun 4, 2017)

friedaweed said:


> Remember that naked hippy the yanks tasered





In fairness he might have cast a spell on them any second .


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 4, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> I'll take that as a no then


yes, of course it's a no. I never claimed to have additional information, just being cautious about Mr.Bishie 's speculations


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 4, 2017)

Not at all. No shots were fired by these cunts. Why would that be called in differently? I wasn't on the desk taking these calls so cannot say 100% that this is true. They were armed with knives, as reported to the police.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 4, 2017)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Why would reports of gunfire be made when there were none?


happens all of the time


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 4, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> happens all of the time



wut?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

Mr Moose said:


> And yet 365 days a year it's what you do. No wonder it's seldom far from your mind.


You've posted loads of vapid posts like this today. Maybe you like them, maybe you're bored and don't give a fuck. Perhaps you could make an effort and at least ascend to my abysmal level instead if making contributions so poor I'd never post them.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> happens all of the time


Such as...


----------



## 8den (Jun 4, 2017)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Why would reports of gunfire be made when there were none?



the attackers were also reportedly wearing suicide vests. Even with a single knife attacker, plod tactics are generally to isolate, separate, and then use a taser. In the extreme conditions in Borough, armed police need to go in assuming the worst.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 4, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> Such as...


cars backfiring, fireworks, bins falling over....


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> Yup. Do you remember the debate we had on another site about the UBA and their pickets of radical preachers? Months later we had posters calling out to open up a second front in Iraq.


Fucking idiots


----------



## snadge (Jun 4, 2017)

Fuck guns, just do a Crocodile Dundee on 'em.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 4, 2017)

snadge said:


> Fuck guns, just do a Crocodile Dundee on 'em.


chuck a ban of baked beans at em?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> cars backfiring, fireworks, bins falling over....


No, give me an actual example where there's been a report made, maybe via a link to a news story


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 4, 2017)

8den said:


> the attackers were also reportedly wearing suicide vests. Even with a single knife attacker, plod tactics are generally to isolate, separate, and then use a taser. In the extreme conditions in Borough, armed police need to go in assuming the worst.



Absolutely.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> chuck a ban of baked beans at em?


You call that a knife? *that's* a knife


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 4, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> No, give me an actual example where there's been a report made, maybe via a link to a news story


No, it's not necessary


----------



## snadge (Jun 4, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> chuck a ban of baked beans at em?




We were always pretty good with swords, just arm the police with them instead of batons etc..


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 4, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> cars backfiring, fireworks, bins falling over....



I think the sound of an AK-47 unleashing it's wrath around the packed streets of London is definable from your shite posted above.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 4, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> You call that a knife? *that's* a knife


there's another scene where he takes out a bag snatcher with a can on the subway


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> there's another scene where he takes out a bag snatcher with a can on the subway


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 4, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> chuck a ban of baked beans at em?



or stale hash browns ...

pointy triangular  stale hash browns


----------



## cyril_smear (Jun 4, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


>


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> No, it's not necessary


Ok, we'll disregard your claim then

Moving on


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 4, 2017)

Ax^ said:


> or stale hash browns ...
> 
> pointy triangular  stale hash browns


----------



## snadge (Jun 4, 2017)

Ax^ said:


> or stale hash browns ...
> 
> pointy triangular  stale hash browns




Hashiken


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 4, 2017)

Mr.Bishie said:


> I think the sound of an AK-47 unleashing it's wrath around the packed streets of London is definable from your shite posted above.


Do you really think the public is adept at identifying the sound of gunfire correctly?


----------



## kebabking (Jun 4, 2017)

Mr.Bishie said:


> They'd have used them. Reports of gunfire. Come on.



No, they wouldn't - not necessarily.

As a concept it's akin to the idea of the lure followed by explosive ambush, and we _know_ that the martyrdom urge is strong enough in these gimps that finding a couple who'd be happy to act as bait wouldn't be a problem.


----------



## agricola (Jun 4, 2017)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Why would reports of gunfire be made when there were none?



Loads of reasons - for a start, lots of people don't know what actual gunfire sounds like and so any loud bang (especially when combined with an obvious incident like this, and especially if they haven't seen all of it) or series of bangs, could easily be confused for gunfire; indeed it is in the run-up to Guy Fawkes night every single year.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 4, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> Ok, we'll disregard your claim then


No, just you and @Mr. Bishie - I don't feel the need to prove it to you as it's common knowledge that people misidentify loud bangs as gunfire


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

snadge said:


> Hashiken


Whatever happened to sadken?[/aside]


----------



## snadge (Jun 4, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> Do you really think the public is adept at identifying the sound of gunfire correctly?




More than you think dot com.


----------



## xenon (Jun 4, 2017)

Talking bollocks as ACAB thinking clouding your views here I think Mr.Bishie. 

The Police did a good job IMO.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> No, just you and @Mr. Bishie - I don't feel the need to prove it you as it's common knowledge that people misidentify loud bangs as gunfire


Yeh. And if you can't or won't put up, why should we take your claim seriously? I call bullshit on your claim, no one's heard a car backfire in years for a start


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 4, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh. And if you can't or won't put up, why should we take your claim seriously? I call bullshit on your claim, no one's heard a car backfire in years for a start


a fictional we there. Why don't you take issue with kebabking and agricola as well?


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 4, 2017)

xenon said:


> Talking bollocks as ACAB thinking clouding your views here I think Mr.Bishie.
> 
> The Police did a good job IMO.



ACAB? Where did you pluck that from? I'm thinking of the longer term strategy of armed police/military patrolling OUR streets! Who in the current fuckin' climate, have itchy trigger fingers!


----------



## alex_ (Jun 4, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh. And if you can't or won't put up, why should we take your claim seriously? I call bullshit on your claim, no one's heard a car backfire in years for a start



On the contrary in fact, from a distance most people cannot recognise gunshots - it's not something most people hear everyday.

Alex


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> a fictional we there. Why don't you take issue with kebabking and agricola as well?


By we I mean I and other people who will read your posts.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

alex_ said:


> On the contrary in fact, from a distance most people cannot recognise gunshots - it's not something most people hear everyday.
> 
> Alex


Yes, you more often hear of people mistaking bangs for fireworks than gunshots.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 4, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> Do you really think the public is adept at identifying the sound of gunfire correctly?



You'd know if an angry AK was spitting at you, rather than some poxy fuckin' bin falling over.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 4, 2017)

Mr.Bishie said:


> You'd know if an angry AK was spitting at you, rather than some poxy fuckin' bin falling over.


but i might not if i heard it coming from a few streets away. not sure why you feel the need to specify a particular gun


----------



## 2hats (Jun 4, 2017)

Mr Moose said:


> You would taser someone with a suicide belt? Holy smoke. And I mean that literally.


The Birmingham police tasered a suspected (and subsequently convicted) suicide bomber when arresting them in July 2005.

Without prior knowledge of the design of the IED one could never be sure what disabling approach would work. Perhaps that ‘suicide belt’ actually contains some biological or chemical agent this time?


----------



## snadge (Jun 4, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> but i might not if i heard it coming from a few streets away. not sure why you feel the need to specify a particular gun




Damn headphones, youth of today, yakka, yakka etc.

The beauty of a bullet is that you _don't_ hear it coming.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 4, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> By we I mean I and other people who will read your posts.


except those other people will read your pointless argumentativeness and scroll down, yawning


----------



## scifisam (Jun 4, 2017)

Mr.Bishie said:


> You'd know if an angry AK was spitting at you, rather than some poxy fuckin' bin falling over.



And a rifle or shotgun? This is ridiculous. There aren't many situations where I'd want the police to open fire but three men in bomb vests stabbing people including cops is definitely one of them. It's not a slippery slope towards American style policing.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 4, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> but i might not if i heard it coming from a few streets away



AFAIK no gunfire was reported on scene. No bins falling over, no cars back firing, just three cunts with a van & knives.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 4, 2017)

Mr.Bishie said:


> AFAIK no gunfire was reported on scene. No bins falling over, no cars back firing, just three cunts with a van & knives.


AFAYK


----------



## agricola (Jun 4, 2017)

Mr.Bishie said:


> You'd know if an angry AK was spitting at you, rather than some poxy fuckin' bin falling over.



You would, but loads of the people who would have called 999 for this wouldn't have seen enough of the incident.  They'd have been in premises or otherwise out of sight at the start of it, heard screaming, saw people fleeing, heard a loud bang, seen people stabbing other people,  and then seen bodies; its very unlikely that any one person saw it all (or even enough to give a commentary as to what exactly was happening).  All of that info, all of those calls, would have been sent to the control room, who then have to read it and communicate it to the officers via the radio.

In eight minutes it is going to be almost impossible to with certainty say that no-one has a firearm, or that there are only three suspects.  I am not sure that would have changed the response anyway, given that there were three of them and they were armed with knives - I forget who said it above but I think that they pointed out that containment and taser is for one suspect with a knife, not three and not when they are actively attacking people.


----------



## Casually Red (Jun 4, 2017)

scifisam said:


> And a rifle or shotgun? This is ridiculous. There aren't many situations where I'd want the police to open fire but three men in bomb vests stabbing people including cops is definitely one of them. It's not a slippery slope towards American style policing.



Corbyn backing the cops fully on this one . Also casting some shade at the Saudis .

London attack: Corbyn criticises Tories in terror speech - BBC News


----------



## Calamity1971 (Jun 4, 2017)

alex_ said:


> On the contrary in fact, from a distance most people cannot recognise gunshots - it's not something most people hear everyday.
> 
> Alex



My motorbike backfired going under a bridge with quite a lot of pedestrians, and their reactions wasn't oh it's just a bike. A loud pop or bang could easily be confused especially in last night's confusion and utter terror. Where I live there is a strong echo so even if Mrs Jones grandchild squeased a smarties tube it would make a loud pop. Then again I don't have a trained ear.


----------



## ShiftyBagLady (Jun 4, 2017)

Not sure why people are speculating about the plod's knowledge of whether they were armed in that night. They would have been trained to anticipate arms and to anticipate being drawn into a trap and ambushed.... They weren't necessarily responding to the information they were given but to the drills they've done before.


----------



## Edie (Jun 4, 2017)

agricola said:


> Those officers almost certainly went to that not knowing how many suspects there were, whether some of them had firearms, whether those things they were wearing were real or not.  The only thing they probably did know prior to attending is that people were being attacked, and that a van had ran people over on the bridge.  Once they got there they probably saw people being attacked, by several people all wearing what looked like suicide vests.  To suggest that taser would be the preferred tactical option, of anyone armed with anything more than taser, in that scenario is absurd.


It is. Absolutely absurd to suggest it would be reasonable for the police to have tasered them.

It's symptomatic of the kind of pickmans thinking. "All police are bad. All police shooting is bad". End of. Literally unable to think beyond that to scenarios that are more complex.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 4, 2017)

agricola said:


> You would, but loads of the people who would have called 999 for this wouldn't have seen enough of the incident.  They'd have been in premises or otherwise out of sight at the start of it, heard screaming, saw people fleeing, heard a loud bang, seen people stabbing other people,  and then seen bodies; its very unlikely that any one person saw it all (or even enough to give a commentary as to what exactly was happening).  All of that info, all of those calls, would have been sent to the control room, who then have to read it and communicate it to the officers via the radio.
> 
> In eight minutes it is going to be almost impossible to with certainty say that no-one has a firearm, or that there are only three suspects.  I am not sure that would have changed the response anyway, given that there were three of them and they were armed with knives - I forget who said it above but I think that they pointed out that containment and taser is for one suspect with a knife, not three and not when they are actively attacking people.



Fair comment. The general public ain't savvy. I'm just concerned about armed plod wantonly firing 50 rounds into the dark & getting away with just on civilian casualty.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 4, 2017)

Edie said:


> Absolutely absurd to suggest it would be reasonable for the police to have tasered them.



It's really not. They were armed with knives ffs.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 4, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> AFAYK



If they'd have had guns, they'd have fucking used them.


----------



## chilango (Jun 4, 2017)

Mr.Bishie said:


> You'd know if an angry AK was spitting at you, rather than some poxy fuckin' bin falling over.



Back when I lived in Manchester, somebody drive by and emptied what iirc turned out to be an Uzi at the house directly across the road from mine.

I knew what it was straight away and hit the deck for the duration.


----------



## Edie (Jun 4, 2017)

Plumdaff said:


> They were in a situation where there were injured and dead people around them, and attackers actively pursuing people to attack them, wearing what could be suicide belts, which can be detonated in a half second. We're questioning why the police shot them? Really?


Just this. Wtaf. Our police literally took on terrorists to defend Londoners, and this shit is being spouted. It's disgraceful.


----------



## Raheem (Jun 4, 2017)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Fair comment. The general public ain't savvy. I'm just concerned about armed plod wantonly firing 50 rounds into the dark & getting away with just on civilian casualty.



"Wantonly". Is that how you see it in this particular situation?


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Jun 4, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> Ramadan might be about all that. But you've got to remember that these people have 'nothing to do with Islam.'



Islam is _not_ monolithic, it has _never_ been a singular entity, there are as many permutations of what might be termed 'Islamic expression' as there are individuals engaging with the faith on a daily basis, often quietly and without feeling their faith has prescribed killing innocent people each and every day.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 4, 2017)

Raheem said:


> "Wantonly". Is that how you see it in this particular situation?



50 rounds? In the dark? A civilian caught in the crossfire? Yes they shot the cunts involved, & rightly so. I just think police firearm tactics/training need serious review. I had this debate with *DB til I was blue in the face, & I ain't going to have it again.

At what cost do you think it ok to have civilian casualties at the hand of armed police in the UK?

*You probably don't know who DB was, but he's ex MET (Peter Kirkham) who's vid was posted on this thread earlier, & used to post here. He's a trigger happy cunt if that helps.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

Edie said:


> It is. Absolutely absurd to suggest it would be reasonable for the police to have tasered them.
> 
> It's symptomatic of the kind of pickmans thinking. "All police are bad. All police shooting is bad". End of. Literally unable to think beyond that to scenarios that are more complex.


have you ever considered reading the thread, rather than simply looking at it?

you seem to have skipped right past post 481, for example.



Pickman's model said:


> given the lamentable use of police firearms in the past, i am naturally suspicious of all police shootings. if on this occasion there was an apparent clear and present danger to life and limb then i would be pleasantly surprised that they followed their rules. i do though feel that shooting terrorists dead can hinder subsequent inquiries, can lead to them being viewed in some quarters as martyrs, fuels any propaganda issued proclaiming 'we' are at war with 'them': if the government is serious about winning any war of ideas, then treating terrorists like criminals instead of gunning them down when the opportunity if not the necessity presents to my mind undermines that aim. the suggestion the general election should be postponed, no matter that it's rejected, undermines that aim. if i was home secretary, my strong advice to police forces would be as far as possible to deal with jihadi 'loons as you would with any other criminal rather than allowing anyone to present the state as using special weapons and tactics against them. but i fear theresa may and amber rudd and that are far more interested in bigging themselves up by association with guns and special forces to undermine the jihadi by refusing to allow him special status.


----------



## Edie (Jun 4, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> have you ever considered reading the thread, rather than simply looking at it?


What I've read amounts to you and Mr Bishie seriously suggesting the police were wrong to shoot the terrorists last night. It's so absolutely ridiculous I can barely believe it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

Edie said:


> What I've read amounts to you and Mr Bishie seriously suggesting the police were wrong to shoot the terrorists last night. It's so absolutely ridiculous I can barely believe it.


yeh? pls quote the post you find so absolutely ridiculous.

as i say, you seem to have skipped past e.g. post 481

but i wouldn't want to embarrass you by suggesting you didn't know what had been said on the thread.


----------



## agricola (Jun 4, 2017)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Fair comment. The general public ain't savvy. I'm just concerned about armed plod wantonly firing 50 rounds into the dark & getting away with just on civilian casualty.



I suppose that just depends on the context of each the shootings; specifically whether the suspects here did what the two blokes who killed Lee Rigby did and charged the armed officers.


----------



## Casually Red (Jun 4, 2017)

Dunno if this has been posted elsewhere but I have to say I admire this chap who held onto his pint despite the world around him going tits up . A rather good fuck off to these rats IMHO .


----------



## Edie (Jun 4, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh? pls quote the post you find so absolutely ridiculous.


Quote the post? What are you on about you absolute trumpet. Just read the thread and observe the posts you've liked. Or do you just like every post that supports your side of an ACAB argument like an unthinking wally?


----------



## cyril_smear (Jun 4, 2017)

Edie said:


> Quote the post? What are you on about you absolute trumpet. Just read the thread and observe the posts you've liked. Or do you just like every post that supports your side of an ACAB argument like an unthinking wally?



Clearly.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 4, 2017)

Edie said:


> What I've read amounts to you and Mr Bishie seriously suggesting the police were wrong to shoot the terrorists last night. It's so absolutely ridiculous I can barely believe it.



I've not said that at all. Read the thread, & my first post.


----------



## JuanTwoThree (Jun 4, 2017)

I wonder what he was drinking:
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




I see Farage and Hopkins proposed internment on Fox News.

Fox News Host Disavows Internment Camps, After Panelists Suggest Rounding Up Muslims | HuffPost


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Jun 4, 2017)

Edie said:


> What I've read amounts to you and Mr Bishie seriously suggesting the police were wrong to shoot the terrorists last night. It's so absolutely ridiculous I can barely believe it.



Here is a thought. In usual circumstances, Police are trained specifically to disable, not to kill. To kill is not an explicitly stated intention, although given the necessary difficulties of shooting at a human body this may not always go 'according to plan or intention'. But three people appear to have been shot dead. Were they armed? One appears to have had some kind of mock suicide vest on display - which might suggest an invitation to be killed or provoke a particular recation. But the other two? Has the MPS' policy regarding incidents such as these changed? Is there a 'shoot to kill' policy in place? What were the specific circumstances that might have contributed to the mindset of the armed officers prior to engaging with the situation .

There are a great many questions that arise here. A great many.


----------



## RD2003 (Jun 4, 2017)

Beats & Pieces said:


> Islam is _not_ monolithic, it has _never_ been a singular entity, there are as many permutations of what might be termed 'Islamic expression' as there are individuals engaging with the faith on a daily basis, often quietly and without feeling their faith has prescribed killing innocent people each and every day.


Never claimed it was monolithic, nor say that most Muslims believe anything of the kind.


----------



## Edie (Jun 4, 2017)

Beats & Pieces said:


> Here is a thought. In usual circumstances, Police are trained specifically to disable, not to kill. To kill is not an explicitly stated intention, although given the necessary difficulties of shooting at a human body this may not always go 'according to plan or intention'. But three people appear to have been shot dead. Were they armed? One appears to have had some kind of mock suicide vest on display - which might suggest an invitation to be killed or provoke a particular recation. But the other two? Has the MPS' policy regarding incidents such as these changed? Is there a 'shoot to kill' policy in place? What were the specific circumstances that might have contributed to the mindset of the armed officers prior to engaging with the situation .
> 
> There are a great many questions that arise here. A great many.


And they are all questions that deserve to be asked in due course, and answered by the professionals. I agree.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

Edie said:


> Quote the post? What are you on about you absolute trumpet. Just read the thread and observe the posts you've liked. Or do you just like every post that supports your side of an ACAB argument like an unthinking wally?


so what you're saying is it's not something i've said, but my liking Mr.Bishie's posts. i've said on a number of occasions i like posts for a range of reasons and not always to signify my agreement with their contents so my liking e.g. casually red's first post since march doesn't mean i agree with him. so if you're looking at all my likes and saying hmmm pickman's agrees with that and that and that then you're not going to get much out of it. if you can't find any evidence of me actually saying what you say i've said, and you've already admitted you can't, i'll thank you to apologise.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

Edie said:


> Quote the post? What are you on about you absolute trumpet. Just read the thread and observe the posts you've liked. Or do you just like every post that supports your side of an ACAB argument like an unthinking wally?


have a sympathy like: for the avoidance of doubt this does not mean i agree with you


----------



## Raheem (Jun 4, 2017)

JuanTwoThree said:


> I see Farage and Hopkins proposed internment on Fox News.



Christ. Internment anywhere is bad enough.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 4, 2017)

Beats & Pieces said:


> Islam is _not_ monolithic, it has _never_ been a singular entity, there are as many permutations of what might be termed 'Islamic expression' as there are individuals engaging with the faith on a daily basis, often quietly and without feeling their faith has prescribed killing innocent people each and every day.



Quoting RD2003 is like saying "Beetlejuice" three times. Never a good idea as the prick turns up to speak shit and cause trouble again.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 4, 2017)

Beats & Pieces said:


> Here is a thought. In usual circumstances, Police are trained specifically to disable, not to kill. To kill is not an explicitly stated intention, although given the necessary difficulties of shooting at a human body this may not always go 'according to plan or intention'.



Read ViolentPanda 's posts on this thread.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Quoting RD2003 is like saying "Beetlejuice" three times. Never a good idea as the prick turns up to speak shit and cause trouble again.


especially if you're stupid enough to tag him


----------



## Edie (Jun 4, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> so what you're saying is it's not something i've said, but my liking Mr.Bishie's posts. i've said on a number of occasions i like posts for a range of reasons and not always to signify my agreement with their contents so my liking e.g. casually red's first post since march doesn't mean i agree with him. so if you're looking at all my likes and saying hmmm pickman's agrees with that and that and that then you're not going to get much out of it. if you can't find any evidence of me actually saying what you say i've said, and you've already admitted you can't, i'll thank you to apologise.


No time for this kind of disingenuous bullshit sorry.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 4, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> especially if you're stupid enough to tag him



Good point well made.


----------



## RD2003 (Jun 4, 2017)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Quoting RD2003 is like saying "Beetlejuice" three times. Never a good idea as the prick turns up to speak shit and cause trouble again.


Sorry. In future I will try to restrict myself to the sad-face emoticon when it comes to such matters. 

If I had a Facebook page I'd have done the Frech tricolour thing over my ugly mug as well.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 4, 2017)

Told you.


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Jun 4, 2017)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Read ViolentPanda 's posts on this thread.



I have, there are points upon which we agree, but there may be points about which we disagree.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 4, 2017)

You agree with facts, or you don't?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

Edie said:


> No time for this kind of disingenuous bullshit sorry.





Pickman's model said:


> Yeh. Are you sure you're not mistaking likes for agreement? I like lots of posts I don't necessarily agree with.


from february this year


Pickman's model said:


> the point of the like button is to enable users to show solidarity, to express affection, to say 'i agree', to indicate amusement, and - yes - on occasion to massage someone's ego: not to mention the 101 other reasons why people press the like button. one or more of these reasons may be indicated by a 'like'.


from august 2016


Pickman's model said:


> tbh 'liking' a post does not necessarily mean 'i agree with everything in this post' or even 'i agree with something in this post'. you'll often see me 'liking' a post because i like the poster rather than my actually associating myself with the contents of the post. editor may 'like' similarly.


from october 2015

it is as i say a view i have long held and not cobbled together this evening.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 4, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> it is as i say a view i have long held and not cobbled together this evening.



So all my likes from you are actually a false flag?


----------



## ferrelhadley (Jun 4, 2017)

"The nihilistic spectacle of atrocity violence." Violence that has no coherent strategy or coherent ideology. That has no clear path to a world the perpetrators can articulate in a coherent vision. It is violence to create spectacle, atrocity for he sake of notoriety and enacted in a manner to invite self extinctions on the incredibly self indulgent belief that some entity that created a universe 93.2 billions light years across and 15 billion years old cares that you killed someone having a beer in Borough Market.

To the takfiri jihadis and the white nationalists.

Our victory will be our laughter, our getting along with each others idiosyncrasies, our daily lives of imperfection and integration. 

We are stronger because we are all different and can live with that.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 4, 2017)

christ. he shits on so many threads. it doesn't matter to him though, just as long as he's right and wins the argument. doesn't matter if he ruins the thread, just as long as he has proved someone wrong. endless pointless diversions in the name of one-upmanship. who cares if people are dead, pickman's is all correct and consistent.


----------



## RD2003 (Jun 4, 2017)

This is what a neighbour of the main suspect claims he said to her:
“I’m ready to do whatever I need to do in the name of Allah. I am ready in the name of Allah to do what needs to be done, including killing my own mother.”
Or maybe the main reason he did what he did was because it seemed more exciting and less predictable than the Champions League final on telly.


----------



## Casually Red (Jun 4, 2017)

Footage of the 3 nutjobs walking down the street . 2 in paramilitary type garb , all 3 wearing suicide vest paraphernalia .


----------



## YouSir (Jun 4, 2017)

Naming no names but it still surprises me how people can rock up to a message board with years and years and years worth of political discussion on it - including some highly in depth and well informed contributions - and imagine that sub-Reddit level edginess is somehow going to lead to anything more than mockery.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 4, 2017)

Just for the record, I just liked Orang Utan's post because I agree with it.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 4, 2017)

Mr.Bishie said:


> *You probably don't know who DB was, but he's ex MET (Peter Kirkham) who's vid was posted on this thread earlier, & used to post here. He's a trigger happy cunt if that helps.


Had no idea that was DB. We all look so sensible irl, don't we.


----------



## Who PhD (Jun 4, 2017)

"enough is enough" says theresa may, just not for the arms industry or the saudi cunts we sell guns to.

Increase jail terms? Won't do a thing when people don't care if they die during these acts.


----------



## phillm (Jun 4, 2017)

JuanTwoThree said:


> I wonder what he was drinking:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If we can intern those two fuckers then it's got my vote.


----------



## Who PhD (Jun 4, 2017)

What the fuck does it take to silence Hopkins (and Farage for that matter)? Can't she just die or something?


----------



## Edie (Jun 4, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> christ. he shits on so many threads. it doesn't matter to him though, just as long as he's right and wins the argument. doesn't matter if he ruins the thread, just as long as he has proved someone wrong. endless pointless diversions in the name of one-upmanship. who cares if people are dead, pickman's is all correct and consistent.


So wearing isn't it.


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 4, 2017)

Who PhD said:


> What the fuck does it take to silence Hopkins (and Farage for that matter)? Can't she just die or something?



only the good die young...


----------



## Edie (Jun 4, 2017)

Mr.Bishie said:


> So all my likes from you are actually a false flag?


 ((Mr Bishie))

Fact is, he uses them just as anyone else does. To encourage. But he hides behind this bullshit disclaimer of his likes not meaning anything really.

I've a lot more respect for someone like you. You and me may disagree about whether or not tasering is a fuckin bonkers idea in these circumstances (and it really is). But at least I know what you think, clearly.


----------



## Who PhD (Jun 4, 2017)

Ax^ said:


> only the good die young...


I'm happy for people to think she was good 

Anyway that's probably enough of that, given the topic.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 4, 2017)

A380 said:


> You aren't really this fucking stupid are you? You are trolling right?



Firing live rounds at someone who is wearing a possibly-explosive device is as daft as tasering the same person.  Either action is likely to set the fucking thing off, unless the device maker has access to commercial explosives that can only be detonated by current.  I suspect *that* is the point that Mr.Bishie is trying to make.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 4, 2017)

Mr.Bishie said:


> If they'd have been armed with guns, they'd have used them the moment they exited that van.



It would have made the most sense, and the biggest splash.  Much easier to empty a magazine into a crowd or a restaurant, than to run from person to person, slashing with a knife.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 4, 2017)

friedaweed said:


> Remember that naked hippy the yanks tasered



TBF, that is *exactly* what should be done with naked hippies.


----------



## yield (Jun 4, 2017)

8den said:


> Not sure if this has been posted before, Peter Kirkham, fmr Senior Investigating Officer, the Met savages May's police cuts and calls the Tory claim that there are more armed police on the streets as a lie.





Mr.Bishie said:


> You probably don't know who DB was, but he's ex MET (Peter Kirkham) who's vid was posted on this thread earlier, & used to post here. He's a trigger happy cunt if that helps.


Didn't know that was detective-boy


----------



## weltweit (Jun 4, 2017)

Listening to radio 4 on my way home tonight there was a contributor who said he knew one of the attackers (how they knew who they were at this stage I don't know) and furthermore they said that they had noticed their increased radicalisation and had called the terrorist hotline and reported them to the authorities.

I suppose that sort of thing will come out in the coming days and we might be able to mull over if this particular event might have been preventable.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 4, 2017)

Edie said:


> ((Mr Bishie))
> 
> Fact is, he uses them just as anyone else does. To encourage. But he hides behind this bullshit disclaimer of his likes not meaning anything really.
> 
> I've a lot more respect for someone like you. You and me may disagree about whether or not tasering is a fuckin bonkers idea in these circumstances (and it really is). But at least I know what you think, clearly.


I have no problem with the idea of a person attacking others with a knife being shot dead. And if you're shooting, shoot to kill. But it does appear to me that the police got lucky last night (and thank fuck that they did). That judgement boils down partly to the confidence you have in the competence of the police. I suspect that your confidence in them is far higher than mine. We have plenty of examples of armed police opening fire in mistake or in panic with tragic results - de Menezes, Duggan.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 4, 2017)

yield said:


> Didn't know that was detective-boy



Yep, a proper cunt (as you'll know) who calls for more armed idiots on our streets.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 4, 2017)

yield said:


> Didn't know that was detective-boy


There are clues, thinking about it. The rather hysterical assertion that it was lucky the attacks were in big cities, cos there's fuck-all protection elsewhere, is rather db-ish. A sniper on every village green...


----------



## J Ed (Jun 4, 2017)

littlebabyjesus said:


> There are clues, thinking about it. The rather hysterical assertion that it was lucky the attacks were in big cities, cos there's fuck-all protection elsewhere, is rather db-ish. A sniper on every village green...



U75 is good preparation for going on telly and slagging off Tories.


----------



## JuanTwoThree (Jun 4, 2017)

I wonder if the three thought they were wearing working suicide belts. I mean, if someone says 'here's your bomb belt" there's no easy way to test it.


----------



## Plumdaff (Jun 4, 2017)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I have no problem with the idea of a person attacking others with a knife being shot dead. And if you're shooting, shoot to kill. But it does appear to me that the police got lucky last night (and thank fuck that they did). That judgement boils down partly to the confidence you have in the competence of the police. I suspect that your confidence in them is far higher than mine. We have plenty of examples of armed police opening fire in mistake or in panic with tragic results - de Menezes, Duggan.



It's context isn't it. And by all the evidence we have to hand right now about the circumstances I think it was obviously the right thing to have done, even though I have a largely low opinion of the police in general.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 4, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> but i might not if i heard it coming from a few streets away. not sure why you feel the need to specify a particular gun



Well, apart from anything else, most weapons have distinctive sounds, to do with barrel length, type of mechanism, calibre etc.  An AK 47 is pretty distinctive from its western equivalents.  The ammo travels faster, the bolt cycles faster and the ammo contains a higher charge than that used in NATO assault rifles.  My old service rifle was completely distinctive from the current service rifle, and my personal rifle was totally distinctive from the last 2 British service rifles.  I suspect that Mr.Bishie was exposed to the sound of AKs enough to have been able to tell the difference between a Warsaw Pact soldier firing his rifle, a Yank firing theirs, or a fellow British Light Infantryman firing theirs.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 4, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> Well, apart from anything else, most weapons have distinctive sounds, to do with barrel length, type of mechanism, calibre etc.  An AK 47 is pretty distinctive from its western equivalents.  The ammo travels faster, the bolt cycles faster and the ammo contains a higher charge than that used in NATO assault rifles.  My old service rifle was completely distinctive from the current service rifle, and my personal rifle was totally distinctive from the last 2 British service rifles.  I suspect that Mr.Bishie was exposed to the sound of AKs enough to have been able to tell the difference between a Warsaw Pact soldier firing his rifle, a Yank firing theirs, or a fellow British Light Infantryman firing theirs.



Like agricola said though, civvies wouldn't know. Which is fair comment. But saying that, gunfire has a very distinctive sound, not like fire works, cars back firing, or bins falling over.


----------



## snadge (Jun 4, 2017)

Mr.Bishie said:


> So all my likes from you are actually a false flag?



Mine are though, everyone knows that anyways.


----------



## J Ed (Jun 4, 2017)

The new very good Tory policy to stop terrorism is to launch Trident at central London.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 4, 2017)

Raheem said:


> "Wantonly". Is that how you see it in this particular situation?



To anyone who's served in the British army (as Mr.Bishie has), 50 rounds expended at 3 targets *is *wanton, especially in a crowded area, at night (however well-lit the streets are).  You're trained - as firearms officers supposedly are too - to use 2-3 shots maximum per target, especially as you don't know where your next ammo resupply is coming from, not to "spray and pray".  Spray and pray gets innocents injured and/or killed.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 4, 2017)

weltweit said:


> I suppose that sort of thing will come out in the coming days and we might be able to mull over if this particular event might have been preventable.


Not sure that's a particularly good question, though. Who knows how many people are reported to the police on the terrorist hotline for comments they make? Quite a few, I'm guessing. So what do they do with the information? And what should they be allowed to do - do we want to live in a society in which it is possible for someone to phone the police and get you in shit purely on their say-so? 

That's always the question when this stuff happens - How could it have been stopped? How can future attacks be stopped? As if the existence of the attack were itself an indication that something could have been done to stop it. And the danger is that the likes of db are listened to, that this results in more armed police, more fearful reactions. Best short-term reaction of all, imo, and not saying it's easy, is simply to carry on doing everything we do, not to change how we live.


----------



## scifisam (Jun 4, 2017)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Like agricola said though, civvies wouldn't know. Which is fair comment. But saying that, gunfire has a very distinctive sound, not like fire works, cars back firing, or bins falling over.



But the thing is, if you haven't heard gunfire in real life, you can't distinguish that distinctive sound. The only gunfire I've heard is in movies and that often does sound like cars backfiring etc. I doubt very much that I'm unusual in that.


----------



## cyril_smear (Jun 4, 2017)

JuanTwoThree said:


> I wonder if the three thought they were wearing working suicide belts. I mean, if someone says 'here's your bomb belt" there's no easy way to test it.



Good point, it's not like you can press the button and when nothing happens you can just inconspicuously  whistle and walk away.


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Jun 4, 2017)

Mr.Bishie said:


> You agree with facts, or you don't?



Is this comment directed at me?


----------



## DexterTCN (Jun 4, 2017)

This concert really is the most positive outpouring of love...although I keep having to phone my daughter to find out who I'm watching.


----------



## agricola (Jun 4, 2017)

J Ed said:


> The new very good Tory policy to stop terrorism is to launch Trident at central London.




Every time you get the idea that there might actually be a devious sub-plot to their campaign, along comes a swanee-whistle accompanied clown car of a statement to remind you that they are actually just rubbish.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

Edie said:


> ((Mr Bishie))
> 
> Fact is, he uses them just as anyone else does. To encourage. But he hides behind this bullshit disclaimer of his likes not meaning anything really.
> 
> I've a lot more respect for someone like you. You and me may disagree about whether or not tasering is a fuckin bonkers idea in these circumstances (and it really is). But at least I know what you think, clearly.





ViolentPanda said:


> To anyone who's served in the British army (as Mr.Bishie has), 50 rounds expended at 3 targets *is *wanton, especially in a crowded area, at night (however well-lit the streets are).  You're trained - as firearms officers supposedly are too - to use 2-3 shots maximum per target, especially as you don't know where your next ammo resupply is coming from, not to "spray and pray".  Spray and pray gets innocents injured and/or killed.


Yeh it's lucky more people weren't shot by the police as the reports of bulletholes in pub windows indicates


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 4, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> Well, apart from anything else, most weapons have distinctive sounds, to do with barrel length, type of mechanism, calibre etc.  An AK 47 is pretty distinctive from its western equivalents.  The ammo travels faster, the bolt cycles faster and the ammo contains a higher charge than that used in NATO assault rifles.  My old service rifle was completely distinctive from the current service rifle, and my personal rifle was totally distinctive from the last 2 British service rifles.  I suspect that Mr.Bishie was exposed to the sound of AKs enough to have been able to tell the difference between a Warsaw Pact soldier firing his rifle, a Yank firing theirs, or a fellow British Light Infantryman firing theirs.


Of course, but most of the public wouldn't have a clue. They just hear bangs.


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Jun 4, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> To anyone who's served in the British army (as Mr.Bishie has), 50 rounds expended at 3 targets *is *wanton, especially in a crowded area, at night (however well-lit the streets are).  You're trained - as firearms officers supposedly are too - to use 2-3 shots maximum per target, especially as you don't know where your next ammo resupply is coming from, not to "spray and pray".  Spray and pray gets innocents injured and/or killed.



The question, 'How many rounds did you fire?' usually brings reality crashing in.


----------



## snadge (Jun 4, 2017)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Like agricola , or bins falling over.



My commiserations go to the families of the bereaved and injured of the last few weeks, it seems the crazies are stepping up their game.

Solutions, maybe back Shia Iran, they are fighting Isis anyway, saudis are given pressies by the west and keep it low tech, fucking saudis with their medieval cuntsuckery.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 4, 2017)

Beats & Pieces said:


> Is this comment directed at me?



Indeed.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 4, 2017)

yield said:


> Didn't know that was detective-boy



Yep, old "ammonia-filled billiard balls" himself.


----------



## Miss Caphat (Jun 4, 2017)

I just wanted to say that I'm very sorry for these recent events in the UK.  Hope you're all holding up ok.


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Jun 4, 2017)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Indeed.



I'm not interested then, sorry.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 4, 2017)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Yep, a proper cunt (as you'll know) who calls for more armed idiots on our streets.



He was a cunt, but *we* (as in ANYONE who disagreed with him!) were members of the "cunt collective"!!!


----------



## Casually Red (Jun 4, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> Firing live rounds at someone who is wearing a possibly-explosive device is as daft as tasering the same person.  Either action is likely to set the fucking thing off, unless the device maker has access to commercial explosives that can only be detonated by current.  I suspect *that* is the point that Mr.Bishie is trying to make.



Unlikely to be his point as he was advocating tasering . Which will without doubt set a detonator off due to passing a dirty great electrical current through a bod y . A controlled explosion is often little more than firing a shotgun blast from a robot directly into a bomb to disrupt it . It rarely ever sets the whole thing off .

Cops will have a drill . Suicide belt means you kill ...kill not incapacitate ..them as quickly as possible as it poses a very extreme risk  to anyone in the vicinity. These idiots would most definitely not have been complying with any demands to surrender and would have been actively bent on forcing their own demise at all costs . Their fake belts were designed for that specific purpose . I don't see how any police force can be criticised for killing death cult members under these specific circumstances  were they've been positively identified beyond any doubt as an immediate threat in the commission of an indiscriminate mass murder attempt .

What's of much greater concern to myself ..and I believe should be to everyone else...is how these assholes were at large despite tip offs from members of the public they were highly dangerous extremists . That's actually worth criticising the state over . That Manchester shits shed caught fire last year due to materials that were inside .The same shed he used to make his device. Nothing done. Despite his families background and his behaviour that was reported . That's the stuff that's bothering me about the states response . Did the state find any of this lot previously useful in their regime change ambitions ? Were any of them on the payroll ? That sort of thing .

The very extreme, indiscriminate and nihilistic nature of the violent threat they pose leaves no alternative other than lethal force during an incident like this .


----------



## weltweit (Jun 4, 2017)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Not sure that's a particularly good question, though. Who knows how many people are reported to the police on the terrorist hotline for comments they make? Quite a few, I'm guessing. So what do they do with the information? And what should they be allowed to do - do we want to live in a society in which it is possible for someone to phone the police and get you in shit purely on their say-so?



Well at least it is likely to come out if these were persons of interest. Their method of attack meant the only thing they needed was radicalisation (everything else was easily available), and if that was noticed and caused someone to phone the line and report one or more of them I think it is reasonable to expect something would have been done. I don't necessarily know what exactly but - that someone has become radicalised enough for people to think they might be planning an attack and enough to report them to the hotline, well that is what is wanted no?


----------



## agricola (Jun 4, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> To anyone who's served in the British army (as Mr.Bishie has), 50 rounds expended at 3 targets *is *wanton, especially in a crowded area, at night (however well-lit the streets are).  You're trained - as firearms officers supposedly are too - to use 2-3 shots maximum per target, especially as you don't know where your next ammo resupply is coming from, not to "spray and pray".  Spray and pray gets innocents injured and/or killed.



It should be said though that fifty shots between eight officers is only just under seven each.  A sudden confrontation between three suspects and eight officers all together could result all of the officers firing at two or more suspects (edit) in a very short space of time.


----------



## Supine (Jun 4, 2017)

Seems to be a lot of speculation on this thread about what happened. At the end of the day the situation was contained within eight minutes and the cops should be applauded for that.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 4, 2017)

snadge said:


> My commiserations go to the families of the bereaved and injured of the last few weeks, it seems the crazies are stepping up their game.
> 
> Solutions, maybe back Shia Iran, they are fighting Isis anyway, saudis are given pressies by the west and keep it low tech, fucking saudis with their medieval cuntsuckery.


The only real solutions are this kind of thing. The solutions are those that address the causes of fanaticism. Even the idea of tracking people is a mirage. Intelligence on 23,000 potential suicide attackers, or something like that, most of whom will of course be nothing of the sort. 

I'm short on solutions. Long-term, don't repeat the mistakes that led to this situation - such as, stop invading other countries. Short-term, I see nothing. Cross your fingers.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 4, 2017)

Beats & Pieces said:


> I'm not interested then, sorry.



Then why post?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 4, 2017)

weltweit said:


> Well at least it is likely to come out if these were persons of interest. Their method of attack meant the only thing they needed was radicalisation (everything else was easily available), and if that was noticed and caused someone to phone the line and report one or more of them I think it is reasonable to expect something would have been done. I don't necessarily know what exactly but - that someone has become radicalised enough for people to think they might be planning an attack and enough to report them to the hotline, well that is what is wanted no?



So what do you propose? If I call up and say that my neighbour's been saying worrying things, what do you propose should be done on that information?


----------



## Casually Red (Jun 4, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> To anyone who's served in the British army (as Mr.Bishie has), 50 rounds expended at 3 targets *is *wanton, especially in a crowded area, at night (however well-lit the streets are).  You're trained - as firearms officers supposedly are too - to use 2-3 shots maximum per target, especially as you don't know where your next ammo resupply is coming from, not to "spray and pray".  Spray and pray gets innocents injured and/or killed.



Is this the training given against 3 blokes with suicide vests ? I'd doubt that very much .


----------



## kebabking (Jun 4, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> To anyone who's served in the British army (as Mr.Bishie has), 50 rounds expended at 3 targets *is *wanton, especially in a crowded area, at night (however well-lit the streets are).  You're trained - as firearms officers supposedly are too - to use 2-3 shots maximum per target, especially as you don't know where your next ammo resupply is coming from, not to "spray and pray".  Spray and pray gets innocents injured and/or killed.



With respect VP, while that is the doctrine for conventional/COIN engagements, it's not the current, or for the last 10 years, doctrine for dealing with suicide bombers (vehicle borne or otherwise) or the Afghan 'blue on green'  engagements.

It's 'get the fucking rounds down', it's belt-fed weapons, it's grenade launchers.

That, I'm afraid, is the lesson of recent and very bloody experience. The lessons of NI applied in NI with NI threat levels, the prism of NI should not blind people to a different reality.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 4, 2017)

kebabking said:


> With respect VP, while that is the doctrine for conventional/COIN engagements, it's not the current, or for the last 10 years, doctrine for dealing with suicide bombers (vehicle borne or otherwise) or the Afghan 'blue on green'  engagements.
> 
> It's 'get the fucking rounds down', it's belt-fed weapons, it's grenade launchers.
> 
> That, I'm afraid, is the lesson of recent and very bloody experience. The lessons of NI applied in NI with NI threat levels, the prism of NI should not blind people to a different reality.


And how many civilians have died in Afghanistan as a result of this new doctrine?

Do they even keep count?


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Jun 4, 2017)

It will have been derived from the Israeli experience.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 4, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh it's lucky more people weren't shot by the police as the reports of bulletholes in pub windows indicates



Always scares the shit out of me, the way armed police just blaze away.  One of the massive problems with the old L1A1 service rifle (as with the SMLE before it) was ammo over-penetration in urban situations.  Shoot a .303 or 7.62 round at someone, and it could easily carry on through that person, into and through surrounding structures.  At least half a dozen deaths in the 6 counties were due to innocents being struck by bullets that had come through a brick wall or two before hitting them.
Now, the 9mms the coppers use *shouldn't* over-penetrate, but things depend on the type of ammo, and the charge (which determines the speed at which the bullet itself moves).  If the coppers are using FMJs (which given semi-auto weapons, is almost a certainty), then unless you *underload* the charge, you'll have a heavy bullet travelling fast enough to punch through a body and carry on into another.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> Yep, old "ammonia-filled billiard balls" himself.


He'd have kept carter-fuck employed for years if he followed through on his threats to sue for libel


----------



## kebabking (Jun 4, 2017)

littlebabyjesus said:


> And how many civilians have died in Afghanistan as a result of this new doctrine?
> 
> Do they even keep count?



Probably quite a lot, but not nearly as many - either local civs or us - who's lives have been saved by killing the attacker and destroying his vehicle/bomb before he could detonate it.

Which would you prefer?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 4, 2017)

Casually Red said:


> Is this the training given against 3 blokes with suicide vests ? I'd doubt that very much .



It's generally, as I'm sure you know, given under "live fire" conditions.


----------



## alex_ (Jun 4, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> Of course, but most of the public wouldn't have a clue. They just hear bangs.



Which they think are fireworks, because that's what it normally is.

Alex


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Jun 4, 2017)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Then why post?



One last time. Your question, such as it is, is of no point, interest or relevance. I'm sorry.


----------



## snadge (Jun 4, 2017)

As the goons said in EvE online, shoot blues everyday.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 4, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> Always scares the shit out of me, the way armed police just blaze away.



Which is the problem I have. Hence my posts in this thread.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 4, 2017)

Beats & Pieces said:


> One last time. Your question, such as it is, is of no point, interest or relevance. I'm sorry.



Fuck off quoting me then. Simple.


----------



## gosub (Jun 4, 2017)

littlebabyjesus said:


> The only real solutions are this kind of thing. The solutions are those that address the causes of fanaticism. Even the idea of tracking people is a mirage. Intelligence on 23,000 potential suicide attackers, or something like that, most of whom will of course be nothing of the sort.
> 
> I'm short on solutions. Long-term, don't repeat the mistakes that led to this situation - such as, stop invading other countries. Short-term, I see nothing. Cross your fingers.




Who did Sweden invade? Coz they've had Islamic terror attacks


----------



## weltweit (Jun 4, 2017)

littlebabyjesus said:


> So what do you propose? If I call up and say that my neighbour's been saying worrying things, what do you propose should be done on that information?


I would expect the person reporting someone could expect to be asked lots of questions about their concerns and about the person they were reporting. But if they were reporting someone who they thought had been radicalised enough to be actually considering an attack I would have thought some level of investigation would be in order. Beyond that, I don't know, it isn't my specialism.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 4, 2017)

kebabking said:


> With respect VP, while that is the doctrine for conventional/COIN engagements, it's not the current, or for the last 10 years, doctrine for dealing with suicide bombers (vehicle borne or otherwise) or the Afghan 'blue on green'  engagements.
> 
> It's 'get the fucking rounds down', it's belt-fed weapons, it's grenade launchers.



You know what though, I'm not cognisant of ANY engagements on UK soil involving belt-fed weapons and grenade launchers.  The 'stan and Iraq aren't the UK, and tactics from there shouldn't be deployed without revision here.  "Pour it on" (unless you're some sort of artillery knobber  ) is never a particularly-good philosophy, especially given how shit British military logistics are.



> That, I'm afraid, is the lesson of recent and very bloody experience. The lessons of NI applied in NI with NI threat levels, the prism of NI should not blind people to a different reality.



I'd say that currently, the prism of NI serves us better, in terms of representing an accurate threat level, than seeing everything through a Jihadi lens.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 4, 2017)

Beats & Pieces said:


> It will have been derived from the Israeli experience.



Indirectly, via co-training with the fucking US military, who are happy to receive direct training from the IDF.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 4, 2017)

gosub said:


> Who did Sweden invade? Coz they've had Islamic terror attacks


The actions of others have had repercussions for Sweden. The anarchic spaces that have opened up in Libya, Iraq, Syria and elsewhere are a consequence of invasions of which the UK was a part. Doesn't mean only those directly involved will be affected by the fall-out.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 4, 2017)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Which is the problem I have. Hence my posts in this thread.



D_B always used to get his piss boiling very quickly when any soldier or former soldier had a pop at police firearms training.  I think that at least part of it was being told that half of the OB's AR-wallahs were Walts who'd never have cut it in the army.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 4, 2017)

gosub said:


> Who did Sweden invade? Coz they've had Islamic terror attacks



Russia.


----------



## yield (Jun 4, 2017)

gosub said:


> Who did Sweden invade? Coz they've had Islamic terror attacks


Sweden has contributed troops to the NATO force in Afghanistan.


----------



## gosub (Jun 4, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> Russia.


TBF, that was a while ago


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 4, 2017)

gosub said:


> TBF, that was a while ago



Sure, but memories are long.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 4, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> D_B always used to get his piss boiling very quickly when any soldier or former soldier had a pop at police firearms training.  I think that at least part of it was being told that half of the OB's AR-wallahs were Walts who'd never have cut it in the army.


db lost his rag with me many times. Sometimes somewhat provoked, I must say. But he did write me a long, and sincerely intended, PM after I had guns pointed at me and was wrongly arrested by clueless coppers. Despite the fact I'd called him a cunt, he still tried to help. He does seem to be as naive as he appears, and I think he actually believes in the general goodness of the police.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

Beats & Pieces said:


> It will have been derived from the Israeli experience.


Yeh everyone knew this 12 years ago, you can go back to the 7/7 threads if you don't believe me: search for kratos


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 4, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> D_B always used to get his piss boiling very quickly when any soldier or former soldier had a pop at police firearms training.  I think that at least part of it was being told that half of the OB's AR-wallahs were Walts who'd never have cut it in the army.



Depressingly, there's so many more to fill DB's shoes on this thread. Arm plod to the teeth & YeeHaa!


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 4, 2017)

Edie said:


> What I've read amounts to you and Mr Bishie seriously suggesting the police were wrong to shoot the terrorists last night. It's so absolutely ridiculous I can barely believe it.


That's just a fucking lie.

MB has been quite clear. He's no criticism of the police shooting these people, but he is concerned that they weren't cautious enough about civilian casualties.


----------



## Humberto (Jun 4, 2017)

It may sound wishy-washy (probably is) but I think the only way we can defeat this is by not being divided, taking each blow and becoming more determined. 99% of Urbs are reasonable, but further afield? Politically, less disposed to vote for fucking idiots, careerists and war profiteers or those that acquiesce to their interests. There does seem to be correlation there. Not blundering around as a country in terms of foreign policy and war making as if we are a big deal, a major power etc. Its just not in our interests. In fact it only seems to lead to misery for ourselves and others. Its incongruous with the type of society we want or pretend to be. It makes us vulnerable.


----------



## kebabking (Jun 4, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> ...I'd say that currently, the prism of NI serves us better, in terms of representing an accurate threat level, than seeing everything through a Jihadi lens.



I'm afraid the reality is that the NI prism doesn't work with this threat - as the French Police found out when they tried to stop a truck with 9mm pistols.

VBIED's on Tottenham Court Road don't have different stopping characteristics to those in Lashkar Gar...


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 4, 2017)

redsquirrel said:


> That's just a fucking lie.
> 
> MB ha been quite clear. He's no criticism of the police shooting these people, but he is concerned that they weren't cautious enough about civilian casualties.



Edie's cool, she knows where I come from, even if she hadn't read the thread. I even rolled a fag for her once at an Unsound in the Arches, cos she couldn't be arsed


----------



## dylanredefined (Jun 4, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> Always scares the shit out of me, the way armed police just blaze away.  One of the massive problems with the old L1A1 service rifle (as with the SMLE before it) was ammo over-penetration in urban situations.  Shoot a .303 or 7.62 round at someone, and it could easily carry on through that person, into and through surrounding structures.  At least half a dozen deaths in the 6 counties were due to innocents being struck by bullets that had come through a brick wall or two before hitting them.
> Now, the 9mms the coppers use *shouldn't* over-penetrate, but things depend on the type of ammo, and the charge (which determines the speed at which the bullet itself moves).  If the coppers are using FMJs (which given semi-auto weapons, is almost a certainty), then unless you *underload* the charge, you'll have a heavy bullet travelling fast enough to punch through a body and carry on into another.



   They tend to use semi-jacketed hollow points so no problems feeding and tend not to over penetrate.
	If they are using rifles 5.56mm has less tendency to over penetrate


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 4, 2017)

Humberto said:


> It may sound wishy-washy (probably is) but I think the only way we can defeat this is by not being divided, taking each blow and becoming more determined.


This is the problem. imo the only sensible response is this kind of wishy-washy take the blow, be determined to carry on. Any macho we'll crush em shit is just hollow nonsense.

There is another way to look at this, though. I thought the Norwegian response to Breivik, which included a determination not to let him change how they lived, was anything but wishy washy. I think that's the brave way to respond.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 4, 2017)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Edie's cool, she knows where I come from, even if she hadn't read the thread. I even rolled a fag for her once at an Unsound in the Arches, cos she couldn't be arsed


I've no beef with her, and I'm glad to see her back, but she has been posting some right nonsense over the last few days. Mostly because she just isn't reading peoples posts.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

redsquirrel said:


> I've no beef with her but she has been posting some right nonsense over the last few days. Mostly because she just isn't reading peoples posts.


It does get dull


----------



## yield (Jun 4, 2017)

Humberto said:


> It may sound wishy-washy (probably is) but I think the only way we can defeat this is by not being divided, taking each blow and becoming more determined. 99% of Urbs are reasonable, but further afield? Politically, less disposed to vote for fucking idiots, careerists and war profiteers or those that acquiesce to their interests. There does seem to be correlation there. Not blundering around as a country in terms of foreign policy and war making as if we are a big deal, a major power etc.


Monday 5 September 2016


> Britain is now the second biggest arms dealer in the world, official government figures show – with most of the weapons fuelling deadly conflicts in the Middle East.
> 
> Since 2010 Britain has also sold arms to 39 of the 51 countries ranked “not free” on the Freedom House "Freedom in the world" report, and 22 of the 30 countries on the UK Government’s own human rights watch list.





> A full two-thirds of UK weapons over this period were sold to Middle Eastern countries, where instability has fed into increased risk of terror threats to Britain and across the West.





Humberto said:


> Its just not in our interests. In fact it only seems to lead to misery for ourselves and others. Its incongruous with the type of society we want or pretend to be. It makes us vulnerable.


The interests of the majority of people and the establishment are completely opposed.

Need trident to keep that seat on the UN permanent security council. Got to keep London's position as the main money laundering centre and tax island.

See the Tax Justice Network podcast on Britain’s Second Empire


----------



## Edie (Jun 4, 2017)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Edie's cool, she knows where I come from, even if she hadn't read the thread. I even rolled a fag for her once at an Unsound in the Arches, cos she couldn't be arsed


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 4, 2017)

Edie said:


>


lazy fucker


----------



## Raheem (Jun 4, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> To anyone who's served in the British army (as Mr.Bishie has), 50 rounds expended at 3 targets *is *wanton, especially in a crowded area, at night (however well-lit the streets are).  You're trained - as firearms officers supposedly are too - to use 2-3 shots maximum per target, especially as you don't know where your next ammo resupply is coming from, not to "spray and pray".  Spray and pray gets innocents injured and/or killed.



This is comparing theoretical apples to actual oranges, at the same time as making a whole host of assumptions about a situation where our knowledge is incomplete. If the cops were trying to hit moving targets in the head, at range, with no prior planning specific to the incident or location (like you, I don't know exactly how it was, but these are all reasonably likely), then it sounds trickier than your average. And eight officers firing simultaneously (probably a totally sound approach) means a lot of rounds are to be expected even if the whole thing is over in seconds. It goes without saying that the fewer bullets are needed the better. At the same time, it's ludicrous to suggest that the "maximum" should be anything less than the number it takes.

Over time, who knows, it may emerge that this was a total farce and they all turned up drunk firing blindly into a crowd. But it's much too early for anyone to be giving them the benefit of their score card


----------



## Edie (Jun 4, 2017)

littlebabyjesus said:


> lazy fucker


I'd imagine I may have had problems with _focus_... 

Mister Bish is a gent mind.


----------



## scifisam (Jun 4, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> To anyone who's served in the British army (as Mr.Bishie has), 50 rounds expended at 3 targets *is *wanton, especially in a crowded area, at night (however well-lit the streets are).  You're trained - as firearms officers supposedly are too - to use 2-3 shots maximum per target, especially as you don't know where your next ammo resupply is coming from, not to "spray and pray".  Spray and pray gets innocents injured and/or killed.



8 officers x 3 targets x 2 shots = 48. So maybe they did follow the training you're talking about.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 4, 2017)

Edie said:


> I'd imagine I may have had problems with _focus_...
> 
> Mister Bish is a gent mind.



You had probs with focus???


----------



## Edie (Jun 4, 2017)

Mr.Bishie said:


> You had probs with focus???


Of my eyes. Yes. I suspect so. I don't actually remember, obviously.

Anyway, back on track. Sorry if I misunderstood you. I thought you said the police should have tasered and not shot the cunts dead. If I got the wrong end of the stick then apologies.


----------



## elbows (Jun 4, 2017)

Ideally I'd rather deny them what they want, so if they want to die I'd rather they were captured. But I am aware of issues of practicality getting in the way of this.


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Jun 4, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh everyone knew this 12 years ago, you can go back to the 7/7 threads if you don't believe me: search for kratos



So. You are actually _agreeing _with me, but trying (as ever) to appear to be clever, all-knowing.


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Jun 5, 2017)

Apparently one of the attackers said 'this is for my family' before stabbing one of the victims. I'm guessing not much of the attackers' backgrounds have been released yet but I'm interested to know why the attacker would say that. If it turns out he's had family killed by UK airstrikes in whatever country we've been bombing the past 17 years at least, it undermines the whole 'foreign policy has nothing to do with this' argument.


----------



## gosub (Jun 5, 2017)

Doctor Carrot said:


> Apparently one of the attackers said 'this is for my family' before stabbing one of the victims. I'm guessing not much of the attackers' backgrounds have been released yet but I'm interested to know why the attacker would say that. If it turns out he's had family killed by UK airstrikes in whatever country we've been bombing the past 17 years at least, it undermines the whole 'foreign policy has nothing to do with this' argument.


...and if it turns out ISIS pay a decent widows pension?


----------



## JuanTwoThree (Jun 5, 2017)

A number of well-made points here:

The Unbearable Weakness Of President Trump In the Face Of Terrorism | HuffPost

The joining of the dots that lead to Saudi Arabia will gather momentum. "Follow the money" is never bad advice.


----------



## Dogsauce (Jun 5, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> He was a cunt, but *we* (as in ANYONE who disagreed with him!) were members of the "cunt collective"!!!



I'm seeing his interview shared everywhere on social media. It'll be doing damage to the Tories. If May loses off the back of this it's going to lead to some conflicted feelings on Urban...


----------



## alex_ (Jun 5, 2017)

gosub said:


> Who did Sweden invade? Coz they've had Islamic terror attacks



Afghanistan

Participants in Operation Enduring Freedom - Wikipedia


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 5, 2017)

Dogsauce said:


> I'm seeing his interview shared everywhere on social media. It'll be doing damage to the Tories. If May loses off the back of this it's going to lead to some conflicted feelings on Urban...


Even bad people can do good things


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 5, 2017)

Doctor Carrot said:


> Apparently one of the attackers said 'this is for my family' before stabbing one of the victims. I'm guessing not much of the attackers' backgrounds have been released yet but I'm interested to know why the attacker would say that. If it turns out he's had family killed by UK airstrikes in whatever country we've been bombing the past 17 years at least, it undermines the whole 'foreign policy has nothing to do with this' argument.


The for his family could be negative, not def positive, if he even said it


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jun 5, 2017)

Doctor Carrot said:


> Apparently one of the attackers said 'this is for my family' before stabbing one of the victims. I'm guessing not much of the attackers' backgrounds have been released yet but I'm interested to know why the attacker would say that. If it turns out he's had family killed by UK airstrikes in whatever country we've been bombing the past 17 years at least, it undermines the whole 'foreign policy has nothing to do with this' argument.



Nothing has been officially released yet about any of the Jihadi's. I presume because the operation is ongoing and the possibility of a wider support network is being investigated.  

As for your other point, UK foreign policy is a highly useful recruiting tool - a gateway drug - for islamism, of that there is no doubt. But the argument that if we hadn't invaded Iraq/Afganistan/tied ourselves to US Foreign policy/whatever none of this would be happening is highly reductive and is based on a fundamental misunderstanding of the political aims of Islamism as you no doubt are aware.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 5, 2017)

Doctor Carrot said:


> Apparently one of the attackers said 'this is for my family' before stabbing one of the victims. I'm guessing not much of the attackers' backgrounds have been released yet but I'm interested to know why the attacker would say that. If it turns out he's had family killed by UK airstrikes in whatever country we've been bombing the past 17 years at least, it undermines the whole 'foreign policy has nothing to do with this' argument.



He was also wearing an Arsenal away top , what can we deduce from that?


----------



## MightyTibberton (Jun 5, 2017)

The reporting of the raids in Barking had people describing the occupant of one of the raided properties as of Pakistani origin for what that's worth. There are drone strikes in parts of Pakistan, aren't there, even if there's no open conflict going on.


----------



## MightyTibberton (Jun 5, 2017)

And, I don't want to pretend any knowledge of Islam or Islamism, but would an Islamist - or even a more mainstream Muslim - consider the entire Muslim community his "family"?


----------



## cyril_smear (Jun 5, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> He was also wearing an Arsenal away top



Hang the cunt!


----------



## RD2003 (Jun 5, 2017)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Nothing has been officially released yet about any of the Jihadi's. I presume because the operation is ongoing and the possibility of a wider support network is being investigated.
> 
> As for your other point, UK foreign policy is a highly useful recruiting tool - a gateway drug - for islamism, of that there is no doubt. But the argument that if we hadn't invaded Iraq/Afganistan/tied ourselves to US Foreign policy/whatever none of this would be happening is highly reductive and is based on a fundamental misunderstanding of the political aims of Islamism as you no doubt are aware.


The other gateway drug is the number of Saudi-funded, Deobandi/Wahabbi-dominated mosques and faith schools.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 5, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> He was also wearing an Arsenal away top , what can we deduce from that?


False flag spurs fan?


----------



## gindygoo (Jun 5, 2017)

Just a laypersons observation on my part, but the reports of what the attackers/terrorists (whatever moniker you see fit to attach to the scum who did this) were saying as they murdered and maimed innocent ppl in the market place, is curious, to me at least.

I've not seen it reported anywhere that the usual shouts of 'Allahu akbar' were heard, but 'this is for Allah' 'this is for my family'. Does anyone else find that a bit odd? It could just be the fact that they're maybe primarily English speakers. Nonetheless, I do find it strange - in the recent past when these Islamist terrorists have committed their horrific attacks, there's pretty much always reports of Allahu akbar being shouted.

What's Urban's thoughts on this? Am I just reading too much into a lack of a phrase being used?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 5, 2017)

gindygoo said:


> Just a laypersons observation on my part, but the reports of what the attackers/terrorists (whatever moniker you see fit to attach to the scum who did this) were saying as they murdered and maimed innocent ppl in the market place, is curious, to me at least.
> 
> I've not seen it reported anywhere that the usual shouts of 'Allahu akbar' were heard, but 'this is for Allah' 'this is for my family'. Does anyone else find that a bit odd? It could just be the fact that they're maybe primarily English speakers. Nonetheless, I do find it strange - in the recent past when these Islamist terrorists have committed their horrific attacks, there's pretty much always reports of Allahu akbar being shouted.
> 
> What's Urban's thoughts on this? Am I just reading too much into a lack of a phrase being used?


or at least it's not reported being used...


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 5, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> False flag spurs fan?


Wasn't Bin Laden also an Arsenal supporter?


----------



## gawkrodger (Jun 5, 2017)

Also, given the normal relatively low level of knowledge of Islam exhibited by the majority of Western/global north jihadis, would it be that much of a surprise?


----------



## MightyTibberton (Jun 5, 2017)

It was an horific and very confused situation. A lot of the people witnessing this had been drinking - I'm not saying they were drunk, but many of the attacks were on bars and restaurants. Some of them were no doubt in shock. People also share false "eye witness" accounts on social media around attacks like this. I know. How low do you have to be - there's even a phenomenon of false "my child is missing" pictures going round, which is pretty sickening.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 5, 2017)

MightyTibberton said:


> And, I don't want to pretend any knowledge of Islam or Islamism, but would an Islamist - or even a more mainstream Muslim - consider the entire Muslim community his "family"?


With Islamacists far from it , you have to be the right sort of Muslim to be 'part of the family'


----------



## MightyTibberton (Jun 5, 2017)

Barron Trump is an Arsenal fan. Or at least he owns an Arsenal kit. A gift from Piers Morgan, who's a pal of the Trumps, possibly.


----------



## gindygoo (Jun 5, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> or at least it's not reported being used...



Yes that could be it. As I'm just going on what I've read, obvs it might not have been reported or in fact heard by those telling their story thus far.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 5, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> Wasn't Bin Laden also an Arsenal supporter?


apparently so


ArseWEB's celebrity Gooners


----------



## no-no (Jun 5, 2017)

Doctor Carrot said:


> Apparently one of the attackers said 'this is for my family' before stabbing one of the victims. I'm guessing not much of the attackers' backgrounds have been released yet but I'm interested to know why the attacker would say that. If it turns out he's had family killed by UK airstrikes in whatever country we've been bombing the past 17 years at least, it undermines the whole 'foreign policy has nothing to do with this' argument.



It really fucks me off that people on the tellybox seem incapable of realising that our foriegn policy might have consequences whilst also admitting that islam has a serious fucking problem in it's midst.

Why is it so hard for both these things to be true?


----------



## MightyTibberton (Jun 5, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> With Islamacists far from it , you have to be the right sort of Muslim to be 'part of the family'



Yes, sorry! I see that a Sunni Islamicist has no love for a Shia... but it's often raised as a justification for attacks - "you've bombed my brothers in Syria/Afghanistan..." - and as a criticism of Islam, who are seen as having more loyalty to people of the same faith in a far away country than to their home country. An ISIS supporter might consider attacks on ISIS in Syria as attacks on his brothers/family.


----------



## no-no (Jun 5, 2017)

littlebabyjesus said:


> So what do you propose? If I call up and say that my neighbour's been saying worrying things, what do you propose should be done on that information?



It's more when multiple differetn sources are reporting the same thing, which I believe was the case with the manchester twat.

Doesn't seem overboard in that situation to have them questioned at least, or seen by a psychologist with a view to sectioning them if the reports are verified.....i don't know if that's possible or realistic though.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 5, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> i'd suggest bridges as a priority tho


and the very next day...


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 5, 2017)

Dogsauce said:


> I'm seeing his interview shared everywhere on social media. It'll be doing damage to the Tories. If May loses off the back of this it's going to lead to some conflicted feelings on Urban...



You can bet that CCHQ, Auntie Beeb etc will be digging like fuck to find something to smear him with.


----------



## danny la rouge (Jun 5, 2017)

gindygoo said:


> Just a laypersons observation on my part, but the reports of what the attackers/terrorists (whatever moniker you see fit to attach to the scum who did this) were saying as they murdered and maimed innocent ppl in the market place, is curious, to me at least.
> 
> I've not seen it reported anywhere that the usual shouts of 'Allahu akbar' were heard, but 'this is for Allah' 'this is for my family'. Does anyone else find that a bit odd? It could just be the fact that they're maybe primarily English speakers. Nonetheless, I do find it strange - in the recent past when these Islamist terrorists have committed their horrific attacks, there's pretty much always reports of Allahu akbar being shouted.
> 
> What's Urban's thoughts on this? Am I just reading too much into a lack of a phrase being used?


It might support the notion that the "radicalisation" model is wrong.

THE CHALLENGE OF THE JIHADI STATE OF MIND


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 5, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> Wasn't Bin Laden also an Arsenal supporter?



Psychotic people can support the world's most boring soccer team too!


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Jun 5, 2017)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Nothing has been officially released yet about any of the Jihadi's. I presume because the operation is ongoing and the possibility of a wider support network is being investigated.
> 
> As for your other point, UK foreign policy is a highly useful recruiting tool - a gateway drug - for islamism, of that there is no doubt. But the argument that if we hadn't invaded Iraq/Afganistan/tied ourselves to US Foreign policy/whatever none of this would be happening is highly reductive and is based on a fundamental misunderstanding of the political aims of Islamism as you no doubt are aware.



Indeed it is a reductive argument. There are however plenty who think it plays no part at all. I don't think it's in doubt that those invasions created a vacuum that have allowed these forces to fill, forces that existed long before those invasions. By 'I'm doing this for my family' he could of course have meant something else entirely, presumably in relation to Islam because he followed that up with 'I'm doing this for Islam. '  This is according to the mother of a stabbing victim recovering in hospital. 

As another poster mentioned I don't understand why it's either islamism or foreign policy and not both these things. Islamism is the main factor of course but not invading other countries would certainly help in stunting its growth.


----------



## Mr Moose (Jun 5, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> He was also wearing an Arsenal away top , what can we deduce from that?



Unhappy with another two years of Wenger?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 5, 2017)

straight out of the tony blair no time for soundbites barrel...


----------



## ruffneck23 (Jun 5, 2017)

I'll be honest this has freaked me out a bit , after handling a hangover yesterday by going to the pub , woke up this morning, got halfway to work and just couldn't do it  I don't want the fuckers to win but I think I've got a bit of PTSD ,we were not far away after being in the area , I may seem weak but I'm a bit scared


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 5, 2017)

ruffneck23 said:


> I'll be honest this has freaked me out a bit , after handling a hangover yesterday by going to the pub , woke up this morning, got halfway to work and just couldn't do it  I don't want the fuckers to win but I think I've got a bit of PTSD ,we were not far away after being in the area , I may seem weak but I'm a bit scared


take your time, don't hurry yourself.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 5, 2017)

MightyTibberton said:


> Yes, sorry! I see that a Sunni Islamicist has no love for a Shia... but it's often raised as a justification for attacks - "you've bombed my brothers in Syria/Afghanistan..." - and as a criticism of Islam, who are seen as having more loyalty to people of the same faith in a far away country than to their home country. An ISIS supporter might consider attacks on ISIS in Syria as attacks on his brothers/family.


Its called waging jihaad and dont forget that those who do have murdered more Muslims than anyone else.


----------



## MightyTibberton (Jun 5, 2017)

I think it's perfectly natural to be upset or scared. That's the point of these attacks and they know they work. I know someone who lives near the site of Saturday's attacks and they're Canadian so I got into a terrible panic when they announced that a Canadian had been killed (I tracked them down on social media, they'd marked themself safe on Facebook). But it's hideously upsetting to imagine what went on on Saturday night. 

Hopefully you'll feel better soon. I always find actual good information - like the long article on the Jihadi mindset linked above - helps me if I do want to engage with what's going on. Otherwise I'd look for something positive, or someone positive. And the fuckers won't win!


----------



## MightyTibberton (Jun 5, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> Its called waging jihaad and dont forget that those who do have murdered more Muslims than anyone else.



Again, indeed! I haven't been clear at all (nothing new there!) in what I've tried to say, and I apologise for that. 

I suppose what I was trying to say was that an ISIS supporter - within his very tightly defined in group of very specific muslims behaving in a very specific way - would consider ISIS his family. I'm just considering that as a reason for the wording. I shouldn't have written things the way I did, I was using much too broad terms, thank you. 

And, I don't support that supposed criticism of Muslims as "disloyal" - but it's one I've often seen used.


----------



## angusmcfangus (Jun 5, 2017)

Posted on Facebook.
Its awkward when those bald fat middle aged racists come out the woodwork during these trying times. They try to absolve their own failures by lashing out at brown people. 
I feel there is a direct correlation between far right hate and Farmfoods microwavable meals.


----------



## Cid (Jun 5, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> straight out of the tony blair no time for soundbites barrel...
> 
> View attachment 108499



Enough is enough... aaand you plan on doing what exactly?


----------



## Corax (Jun 5, 2017)

Apologies if this has already been suggested; I was reading the thread most of the way through but lost the will to live when it descended into squabbling a few pages back.

The reason that the bomb vests were fake (intended purely to provoke panic & martyrdom by cop) rather than real, could IMO point to this attack having been quite hastily put together after being inspired by Manchester.

Should we therefore be bracing for more of the same over the coming weeks, a murderous snowball effect?


----------



## ruffneck23 (Jun 5, 2017)

Hmm this is what I'm worried about , hence being scared :-(


----------



## 5t3IIa (Jun 5, 2017)

ruffneck23 said:


> Hmm this is what I'm worried about , hence being scared :-(


Look after yourself, mate  Do very normal boring things like being sober and eating right and drinking lots of water  You'll be OK, breathe x


----------



## Idris2002 (Jun 5, 2017)

What the hell?

One of the attackers had an "Irish identity card" on him?

We don't have an identity card scheme, so. . . what does this mean?

Garda Commissioner holds meeting as London attacker's Irish link emerges


----------



## peterkro (Jun 5, 2017)

Idris2002 said:


> What the hell?
> 
> One of the attackers had an "Irish identity card" on him?
> 
> ...


They are given to refugees who have the right to residence in Ireland and must be carried at all times.


----------



## gindygoo (Jun 5, 2017)

Corax said:


> Apologies if this has already been suggested; I was reading the thread most of the way through but lost the will to live when it descended into squabbling a few pages back.
> 
> The reason that the bomb vests were fake (intended purely to provoke panic & martyrdom by cop) rather than real, could IMO point to this attack having been quite hastily put together after being inspired by Manchester.
> 
> Should we therefore be bracing for more of the same over the coming weeks, a murderous snowball effect?



I'd say bracing for/worrying about possible copycat type 'snowball effect' future attacks is a complete waste of emotion and time. If there's one thing that smacks me at times like this, it's that what'll be will be.

Obviously be vigilant and aware of your surroundings, but to fret over what might happen won't help you or anyone around you. In fact you could say that *the terrorists are winning if they manage to encroach upon our daily thoughts & routines.*

I can understand the temptation to worry, I've on occasion had similar thoughts myself. I do try to force myself to not get caught up in negative feelings though, and if I find myself worrying at all about events out of my control - I'll go back to the fact that _*shit happens despite us not wanting it to.*_


----------



## Corax (Jun 5, 2017)

Idris2002 said:


> What the hell?
> 
> One of the attackers had an "Irish identity card" on him?
> 
> ...


Could be anything, Blockbusters video, library... I'd guess maybe a University though?

Edit: Just seen peterkro 's much better suggestion above.


----------



## Idris2002 (Jun 5, 2017)

Corax said:


> Could be anything, Blockbusters video, library... I'd guess maybe a University though?


Thanks for this, but I reckon peterkro will be right in this case.


----------



## Corax (Jun 5, 2017)

gindygoo said:


> I'd say bracing for/worrying about possible copycat type 'snowball effect' future attacks is a complete waste of emotion and time. If there's one thing that smacks me at times like this, it's that what'll be will be.
> 
> Obviously be vigilant and aware of your surroundings, but to fret over what might happen won't help you or anyone around you. In fact you could say that *the terrorists are winning if they manage to encroach upon our daily thoughts & routines.*
> 
> I can understand the temptation to worry, I've on occasion had similar thoughts myself. I do try to force myself to not get caught up in negative feelings though, and if I find myself worrying at all about events out of my control - I'll go back to the fact that _*shit happens despite us not wanting it to.*_


You're absolutely right.  I guess what I meant to say is simply that it wouldn't be surprising.


----------



## gindygoo (Jun 5, 2017)

ruffneck23 said:


> Hmm this is what I'm worried about , hence being scared :-(



Understandable, but the chances of becoming caught up in one of these awful events is statistically miniscule. Sending positive vibes - try and think of any positive and happy things in your life.


----------



## gindygoo (Jun 5, 2017)

Corax said:


> You're absolutely right.  I guess what I meant to say is simply that it wouldn't be surprising.



Yes you're right, I guess we're becoming desensitized to quite horrific attacks on our streets.


----------



## rekil (Jun 5, 2017)

Idris2002 said:


> What the hell?
> 
> One of the attackers had an "Irish identity card" on him?
> 
> ...


Public services card possibly. Introduced a few years ago. An ID card in all but name.

E2a: paper saying it's probably a GNIB card, required for all non-EU/EEA nationals.


----------



## Dogsauce (Jun 5, 2017)

A refugee done it? Farage will be on the vinegar strokes.


----------



## keithy (Jun 5, 2017)

Had my mum crying on the phone to me (I am in the area the attack was in every day for work) but I don't feel scared. Just feel angry.

A car crashed into my house the other day. Somehow that freaked me more. I feel like there's more chance of me getting caught up in that kind of accident than a terrorist attack.


----------



## ruffneck23 (Jun 5, 2017)

5t3IIa said:


> Look after yourself, mate  Do very normal boring things like being sober and eating right and drinking lots of water  You'll be OK, breathe x


Unfortunately I'm I'm the pub right now trying to get my head around it.


----------



## YouSir (Jun 5, 2017)

Am I missing something or have the police not released names of attackers yet and asked media not to on the same day as The Sun has named one on their front page?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 5, 2017)

keithy said:


> Had my mum crying on the phone to me (I am in the area the attack was in every day for work) but I don't feel scared. Just feel angry.
> 
> A car crashed into my house the other day. Somehow that freaked me more. I feel like there's more chance of me getting caught up in that kind of accident than a terrorist attack.


hope any damage to your house only superficial: someone i know had a truck crash into his house and take out his front room.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 5, 2017)

YouSir said:


> Am I missing something or have the police not released names of attackers yet and asked media not to on the same day as The Sun has named one on their front page?


they've just named him as 'abz', tho anyone who knows him will be able to identify him completely


----------



## YouSir (Jun 5, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> they've just named him as 'abz', tho anyone who knows him will be able to identify him completely



How they get away with that shit is beyond me.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 5, 2017)

keithy said:


> Had my mum crying on the phone to me (I am in the area the attack was in every day for work) but I don't feel scared. Just feel angry.
> 
> A car crashed into my house the other day. Somehow that freaked me more. I feel like there's more chance of me getting caught up in that kind of accident than a terrorist attack.


it is true, you are more likely to be mown down by a drunk driver than a terrorist, just crossing the road in the evening


----------



## Corax (Jun 5, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> it is true, you are more likely to be mown down by a drunk driver than a terrorist, just crossing the road in the evening


It's weird how irrational people's perception of risk becomes after these events.  After the Manchester bomb I know someone who was considering forgoing their FA Cup final tickets in case there was an attack which left their children orphaned.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 5, 2017)

Corax said:


> It's weird how irrational people's perception of risk becomes after these events.  After the Manchester bomb I know someone who was considering forgoing their FA Cup final tickets in case there was an attack which left their children orphaned.


it's irrational, but perfectly understandable.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jun 5, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> they've just named him as 'abz', tho anyone who knows him will be able to identify him completely



Wasn't one of Salman Abedi's cousins who got arrested after Manchester happened called Abz? Perhaps it's a common name.

ETA: I don't think it's him.


----------



## 5t3IIa (Jun 5, 2017)

ruffneck23 said:


> Unfortunately I'm I'm the pub right now trying to get my head around it.


Oh well


----------



## gentlegreen (Jun 5, 2017)

Fecking hell.
He was even in a TV documentary.

London Bridge 'ringleader' was home-grown jihadi known for extremist views


----------



## Ted Striker (Jun 5, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> it is true, you are more likely to be mown down by a drunk driver than a terrorist, just crossing the road in the evening



Or a cyclist 

(sorry!)


----------



## D'wards (Jun 5, 2017)

My friend's son, who was evacuated from a bar and saw a dead body, is quite traumatised today. Poor sod gets married in less than three weeks. 
His mum has told him to ring the helpline and see what they suggest.


----------



## moochedit (Jun 5, 2017)

Another one 

Melbourne hostage shootout: Two dead and two police officers shot after ISIS gunman calls TV news station
Two dead and two police officers shot after 'ISIS gunman' calls TV news station


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (Jun 5, 2017)

I was off-grid this weekend so I was stuck with the awful Fox News for news of this.  What was interesting is that they were playing Sky News straight from the feed and then bouncing back for commentary from some awful woman named "Judge Janine."  (I'd really like to examine that woman's bar card.)  I know Sky News isn't the best news agency in the world, but it was still a contrast with Fox News reporting.  You'd get 15 minutes of reasonable "don't panic" stuff and then five of "we have to put the Muslims in concentration camps NOW!"  I'm not joking.  They were seriously suggesting that we need to round all Muslims right now!  Fox News looked like scared children in comparison.


----------



## Edie (Jun 5, 2017)

Yuwipi Woman said:


> I was off-grid this weekend so I was stuck with the awful Fox News for news of this.  What was interesting is that they were playing Sky News straight from the feed and then bouncing back for commentary from some awful woman named "Judge Janine."  (I'd really like to examine that woman's bar card.)  I know Sky News isn't the best news agency in the world, but it was still a contrast with Fox News reporting.  You'd get 15 minutes of reasonable "don't panic" stuff and then five of "we have to put the Muslims in concentration camps NOW!"  I'm not joking.  They were seriously suggesting that we need to round all Muslims right now!  Fox News looked like scared children in comparison.


Holy shit are you serious?


----------



## eoin_k (Jun 5, 2017)

Yuwipi Woman said:


> I was off-grid this weekend so I was stuck with the awful Fox News for news of this.  What was interesting is that they were playing Sky News straight from the feed and then bouncing back for commentary from some awful woman named "Judge Janine."  (I'd really like to examine that woman's bar card.)  I know Sky News isn't the best news agency in the world, but it was still a contrast with Fox News reporting.  You'd get 15 minutes of reasonable "don't panic" stuff and then five of "we have to put the Muslims in concentration camps NOW!"  I'm not joking.  They were seriously suggesting that we need to round all Muslims right now!  Fox News looked like scared children in comparison.



You realise that Sky is just the version of Fox that the same company thinks it can get away with to a different audience?


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (Jun 5, 2017)

Edie said:


> Holy shit are you serious?



Yes, I know Sky is pretty bad, but at least they weren't openly calling for Muslims to be rounded up tomorrow.  The US hosts were absolutely freaking out.  It was an insane rant.  I don't usually even have access to Fox News.  I only see it when I'm away from home.  I was quite shocked that they would go that far.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 5, 2017)

Intersting article, although its about Germeny I would suspect it applies to some mosques in the UK
In Germany, Syrians find mosques too conservative


----------



## Corax (Jun 5, 2017)

Yuwipi Woman said:


> I was off-grid this weekend so I was stuck with the awful Fox News for news of this.  What was interesting is that they were playing Sky News straight from the feed and then bouncing back for commentary from some awful woman named "Judge Janine."  (I'd really like to examine that woman's bar card.)  I know Sky News isn't the best news agency in the world, but it was still a contrast with Fox News reporting.  You'd get 15 minutes of reasonable "don't panic" stuff and then five of "we have to put the Muslims in concentration camps NOW!"  I'm not joking.  They were seriously suggesting that we need to round all Muslims right now!  Fox News looked like scared children in comparison.


*Jeanine Pirro*


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (Jun 5, 2017)

Corax said:


> *Jeanine Pirro*



I bet she was a hanging judge.


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (Jun 5, 2017)

eoin_k said:


> You realise that Sky is just the version of Fox that the same company thinks it can get away with to a different audience?



Yes, it is.  But, I suspect that a host in the UK saying the same things would run afoul of anti-hate laws.  Around here they just get multi-million dollar salaries.


----------



## Miss Caphat (Jun 5, 2017)

Yuwipi Woman said:


> Yes, I know Sky is pretty bad, but at least they weren't openly calling for Muslims to be rounded up tomorrow.  The US hosts were absolutely freaking out.  It was an insane rant.  I don't usually even have access to Fox News.  I only see it when I'm away from home.  I was quite shocked that they would go that far.



I try to understand that mindset. I feel like it's completely insane to live in the US and be all panicky about terrorist attacks. Because we're a giant, giant land mass with many, many big cities. We've had a terrorist attack in my nearest city while I was living there and I'm still not afraid, or even think about it. I can't imagine living out in the sticks, as most of the Fox audience does, and worrying about it for one second.


----------



## Edie (Jun 5, 2017)

In the opinion of you Americans, is there widespread recognition in America that you are well on the way to becoming a fascist state? It's honestly terrifying that a national news channel is openly calling for concentration camps. It's unbelievable really, I'm not entirely sure you're serious?


----------



## Corax (Jun 5, 2017)

Miss Caphat said:


> I try to understand that mindset. I feel like it's completely insane to live in the US and be all panicky about terrorist attacks. Because we're a giant, giant land mass with many, many big cities. We've had a terrorist attack in my nearest city while I was living there and I'm still not afraid, or even think about it. I can't imagine living out in the sticks, as most of the Fox audience does, and worrying about it for one second.


For many, they won't be genuinely 'worried'.  It just gives them a legitimate justification for pre-existing hatred of 'other'.

No different over here or anywhere else.  I'm not singling the US out on this.


----------



## editor (Jun 5, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> Ok.
> 
> Please take your liberal handwringing to somebody who is as deluded as you.


I'm taking you off this thread and warning you for your conduct which is pointlessly disruptive.


----------



## Corax (Jun 5, 2017)

Edie said:


> In the opinion of you Americans, is there widespread recognition in America that you are well on the way to becoming a fascist state? It's honestly terrifying that a national news channel is openly calling for concentration camps. It's unbelievable really, I'm not entirely sure you're serious?


It's not like it was long ago that widespread ethnic internment was practiced in the US.


----------



## MightyTibberton (Jun 5, 2017)

Donny No Brains can't leave it alone. 

Are they still going to allow this clown a state visit?


----------



## Miss Caphat (Jun 5, 2017)

Edie said:


> In the opinion of you Americans,* is there widespread recognition in America that you are well on the way to becoming a fascist state*? It's honestly terrifying that a national news channel is openly calling for concentration camps. It's unbelievable really, I'm not entirely sure you're serious?



yes. but it also just feels like it's going insane. like, you can point out that this is fascism, or whatever, and get back a "STFU, libtard!!! Hillary's emails na na na na boo boo!" 

it's utterly pointless to try to point out that you are worried about these things for _everyone's_ sake when people just take it as liberal garbage


----------



## MightyTibberton (Jun 5, 2017)

In fairness to America, it was imported British loon Nigel Farage who started with the internment thing, I believe.


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (Jun 5, 2017)

Edie said:


> In the opinion of you Americans, is there widespread recognition in America that you are well on the way to becoming a fascist state? It's honestly terrifying that a national news channel is openly calling for concentration camps. It's unbelievable really, I'm not entirely sure you're serious?



Part of the reason I was so shocked is that isn't something I see from my neighbors and friends.  There does seem to be a growing fringe element that Fox News represents that would like to see their fascist agenda enacted into law.  (I don't think they recognize it as "Fascism.")  Many of us do feel that were slowly sliding that direction and its finally getting people off the couch to act.


----------



## J.C.Decaux (Jun 5, 2017)

.



D'wards said:


> My friend's son, who was evacuated from a bar and saw a dead body, is quite traumatised today. Poor sod gets married in less than three weeks.
> His mum has told him to ring the helpline and see what they suggest.




His mother also needs to look out for symptoms as such;



*Criterion A: Traumatic event*
Trauma survivors must have been exposed to actual or threatened:


death
serious injury
sexual violence
The exposure can be:


direct
witnessed
indirect, by hearing of a relative or close friend who has experienced the event—indirectly experienced death must be accidental or violent
repeated or extreme indirect exposure to qualifying events, usually by professionals—non-professional exposure by media does not count
Many professionals who work in trauma differentiate between “big T-traumas,” the ones listed above, and “little-t traumas.” Little-t traumas can include complicated grief, divorce, non-professional media exposure to trauma, or childhood emotional abuse, and clinicians recognize that these can result in post-traumatic stress, even if they don’t qualify for the PTSD diagnosis.

There is no longer a requirement that someone had to have an intense emotional response at the time of the event. This requirement excluded many veterans and sexual assault survivors in the past.

*Criterion B: Intrusion or Re-experiencing*
These symptoms envelope ways that someone re-experiences the event. This could look like:


Intrusive thoughts or memories
Nightmares related to the traumatic event
Flashbacks, feeling like the event is happening again
Psychological and physical reactivity to reminders of the traumatic event, such as an anniversary
*Criterion C: Avoidant symptoms*

Avoidant symptoms describe ways that someone may try to avoid any memory of the event, and must include one of the following:


Avoiding thoughts or feelings connected to the traumatic event
Avoiding people or situations connected to the traumatic event
*Criterion D: Negative alterations in mood or cognitions*
This criterion is new, but captures many symptoms that have long been observed by PTSD sufferers and clinicians. Basically, there is a decline in someone’s mood or though patterns, which can include:


Memory problems that are exclusive to the event
Negative thoughts or beliefs about one’s self or the world
Distorted sense of blame for one’s self or others, related to the event
Being stuck in severe emotions related to the trauma (e.g. horror, shame, sadness)
Severely reduced interest in pre-trauma activities
Feeling detached, isolated or disconnected from other people
*Criterion E: Increased arousal symptoms*
Increased arousal symptoms are used to describe the ways that the brain remains “on edge,” wary and watchful of further threats. Symptoms include the following:


Difficulty concentrating
Irritability, increased temper or anger
Difficulty falling or staying asleep
Hypervigilance
Being easily startled
*Criteria F, G and H*
These criteria all describe the severity of the symptoms listed above. Basically, they have to have lasted at least a month, seriously affect one’s ability to function and can’t be due to substance use, medical illness or anything except the event itself.

*Subtype: Dissociation*
Dissociation has now been set apart from the symptom clusters, and now its presence can be specified. While there are several types of dissociation, only two are included in the DSM:


Depersonalization, or feeling disconnected from oneself
Derealization, a sense that one’s surroundings aren’t real

Stay safe and be blessed, JCDecaux.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 5, 2017)

Edie said:


> In the opinion of you Americans, is there widespread recognition in America that you are well on the way to becoming a fascist state? It's honestly terrifying that a national news channel is openly calling for concentration camps. It's unbelievable really, I'm not entirely sure you're serious?


Google fm 3-39.40, internment and resettlement operations. The army's prepared.


----------



## Miss Caphat (Jun 5, 2017)

Yuwipi Woman said:


> Part of the reason I was so shocked is that isn't something I see from my neighbors and friends.  There does seem to be a growing fringe element that Fox News represents that would like to see their fascist agenda enacted into law.  (I don't think they recognize it as "Fascism.")  Many of us do feel that were slowly sliding that direction and its finally getting people off the couch to act.



yeah I meant mostly people on the internet. However, Yuwipi, I think you might find it interesting that here in snooty liberal MA, I actually know several people who are all for this kind of thing.

as well as anti-immigration which is super funny because we really benefit economically from immigration here. Two of our biggest industries are higher education & tech, both of which benefit from immigration massively. Oh, also the medical field that's so huge in Boston.


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (Jun 5, 2017)

Miss Caphat said:


> yeah I meant mostly people on the internet. However, Yuwipi, I think you might find it interesting that here in snooty liberal MA, I actually know several people who are all for this kind of thing.
> 
> as well as anti-immigration which is super funny because we really benefit economically from immigration here. Two of our biggest industries are higher education & tech, both of which benefit from immigration massively. Oh, also the medical field that's so huge in Boston.



We benefit as well.  You couldn't employ enough Americans to run a meat packing operation in the US.  We also have a developing IT sector they're calling the "Silicon Prairie" with tech startups moving here for the cheap housing.  A lot of IT people are imports too. 

Anyway, I don't want to highjack this thread for US worries, when the UK has plenty of their own.


----------



## Corax (Jun 5, 2017)

Miss Caphat said:


> yeah I meant mostly people on the internet. However, Yuwipi, I think you might find it interesting that here in snooty liberal MA, I actually know several people who are all for this kind of thing.
> 
> as well as anti-immigration which is super funny because we really benefit economically from immigration here. Two of our biggest industries are higher education & tech, both of which benefit from immigration massively. Oh, also the medical field that's so huge in Boston.


Logic doesn't seem to come into these things.  Some of the areas here that have benefited the most from EU subsidies and working conditions legislation were most pro-Brexit.


----------



## belboid (Jun 5, 2017)

Corax said:


> Logic doesn't seem to come into these things.  Some of the areas here that have benefited the most from EU subsidies and working conditions legislation were most pro-Brexit.


EU working conditions legislation lags behind the UKs in the vast majority of areas.


----------



## Corax (Jun 5, 2017)

belboid said:


> EU working conditions legislation lags behind the UKs in the vast majority of areas.


I was thinking of a specific knock-on effect regarding tin mines tbh.

Subsidies still stands.


----------



## D'wards (Jun 5, 2017)

J.C.Decaux said:


> .
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks very much - i'll pass it on.

He feels guilty too because it was his local stag night so feels everyone that was exposed in his group was there because of him.


----------



## belboid (Jun 5, 2017)

Corax said:


> I was thinking of a specific knock-on effect regarding tin mines tbh.


Stanneries Laws seriously predate the EU!


----------



## Edie (Jun 5, 2017)

Corax said:


> For many, they won't be genuinely 'worried'.  It just gives them a legitimate justification for pre-existing hatred of 'other'.
> 
> No different over here or anywhere else.  I'm not singling the US out on this.


It absolutely IS different over here. Can you point out one news channel, or national publication, that is calling for the indiscriminate internment of Muslims in concentration camps?

No way that would be allowed here.

It's important to actually look at the differences, and not just meaninglessly say 'we're just as bad'. We're not. We might get so, but we're not as yet.


----------



## Corax (Jun 5, 2017)

belboid said:


> Stanneries Laws seriously predate the EU!


Not that. Stuff about the composition of solder making the mines viable again.  It's really not important.


----------



## Corax (Jun 5, 2017)

Edie said:


> It absolutely IS different over here. Can you point out one news channel, or national publication, that is calling for the indiscriminate internment of Muslims in concentration camps?


No, because that's not what I was talking about in the first sentence of the post you quoted, or what that post was replying to.


----------



## Edie (Jun 5, 2017)

Corax said:


> No, because that's not what I was talking about in the first sentence of the post you quoted, or what that post was replying to.


Ah, apologies, may have misunderstood. What do you think there's no difference in then? The predisposition of people to pretend they are worried/scared to justify concentration camps?


----------



## danny la rouge (Jun 5, 2017)

MightyTibberton said:


> View attachment 108514
> 
> Donny No Brains can't leave it alone.
> 
> Are they still going to allow this clown a state visit?


What a stupid, stupid fuck.

I can't work out if he's:

A) genuinely so thick he couldn't comprehend what Sadiq Khan said and is ploughing on still not having understood. 

B) has worked it out now but is now giving it "fake news" to try to cover his tracks.

C) knows very well what Sadiq Khan said but is spreading a lie. (Why would he do that? Because Khan's a Muslim and Trump is playing some sort of game for a domestic audience?)

So that's either: stupid, stupid and a liar, or racist and a liar.

None of which is a good look in the president of the free world.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 5, 2017)

Edie said:


> Ah, apologies, may have misunderstood. What do you think there's no difference in then? The predisposition of people to pretend they are worried/scared to justify concentration camps?


There have been plenty of calls for them over here too. They just steer clear of calling them concentration camps


----------



## Edie (Jun 5, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> There have been plenty of calls for them over here too. They just steer clear of calling them concentration camps


Seriously? I clearly don't read the news enough. From who?


----------



## planetgeli (Jun 5, 2017)

danny la rouge said:


> What a stupid, stupid fuck.
> 
> I can't work out if he's:
> 
> ...



C)


----------



## Saul Goodman (Jun 5, 2017)

danny la rouge said:


> So that's either: stupid, stupid and a liar, or racist and a liar.


You missed out stupid, racist and a liar.


----------



## Plumdaff (Jun 5, 2017)

For those who are or know people who were witnesses or close by D'wards - there's a lot of mounting evidence that rushing to counselling and therapy too soon after a traumatic incident can interfere with our brain's processing of the event and store up problems further down the line, so there's a delicate balance to be struck between getting support and inadvertently doing too much. GPs are often unsure of this stuff imho. This is a very useful leaflet from the Royal College of Psychiatrists for people who have experienced a traumatic event about what to expect and where to seek help. Hope it is useful.


----------



## MightyTibberton (Jun 5, 2017)

danny la rouge said:


> What a stupid, stupid fuck.
> 
> I can't work out if he's:
> 
> ...



I think it's more the case that he simply doesn't care about the truth - though he's a stupid racist too! Khan and the Trump family have crossed swords before and he loves revenge. He also has a whole media infrastructure that will back him up. Fox have backed him on this with a British commentator (I'm trying to find his name, he's a disgrace) who's called Khan's words a "weasel phrase" - completely going with the out-of-context quoting - and then gone on about no-go-area bollocks. They really are disgusting and they really have no shame and they have a large constituency who will simply swallow it and regurgitate it all over social media. Disgusting and disturbing.


----------



## D'wards (Jun 5, 2017)

Plumdaff said:


> For those who are or know people who were witnesses or close by D'wards - there's a lot of mounting evidence that rushing to counselling and therapy too soon after a traumatic incident can interfere with our brain's processing of the event and store up problems further down the line, so there's a delicate balance to be struck between getting support and inadvertently doing too much. GPs are often unsure of this stuff imho. This is a very useful leaflet from the Royal College of Psychiatrists for people who have experienced a traumatic event about what to expect and where to seek help. Hope it is useful.


Thanks very much


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (Jun 5, 2017)

MightyTibberton said:


> I think it's more the case that he simply doesn't care about the truth - though he's a stupid racist too! Khan and the Trump family have crossed swords before and he loves revenge. He also has a whole media infrastructure that will back him up. Fox have backed him on this with a British commentator (I'm trying to find his name, he's a disgrace) who's called Khan's words a "weasel phrase" - completely going with the out-of-context quoting - and then gone on about no-go-area bollocks. They really are disgusting and they really have no shame and they have a large constituency who will simply swallow it and regurgitate it all over social media. Disgusting and disturbing.



It might have been Steve Hilton.  I think I saw him on Fox the other night.


----------



## elbows (Jun 5, 2017)

When I had a traumatic experience (someone randomly broke my nose outside McDonalds when I was 17) I waited till the bastard stopped visiting me in my dreams - honestly it was such a cliche because the last dream I had about him I threw him off a bridge into a river and he was never in my dreams again.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 5, 2017)

Edie said:


> Seriously? I clearly don't read the news enough. From who?


People like Alison Pearson and Katy Hopkins, but it's the typical knee jerk reaction of many Mail readers, banging on about lists of suspects and how we should just lock them up before they've done anything.


----------



## MightyTibberton (Jun 5, 2017)

Yuwipi Woman said:


> It might have been Steve Hilton. I think I saw him on Fox the other night.



No, I'd have recognised that little so-and-so! 

This guy had ginger hair and a ginger beard - he's Breitbarty I suspect, a Sebastian Gorka replacement. . .


----------



## Edie (Jun 5, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> People like Alison Pearson and Katy Hopkins, but it's the typical knee jerk reaction of many Mail readers, banging on about lists of suspects and how we should just lock them up before they've done anything.


That is different to calling for camps to lock up all Muslims indiscriminately. Still shit mind.

Edit: and didn't Hopkins lose her job for saying it?


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Jun 5, 2017)

danny la rouge said:


> It might support the notion that the "radicalisation" model is wrong.
> 
> THE CHALLENGE OF THE JIHADI STATE OF MIND



The 'conveyor approach' is, and has always been wrong, lauded and promoted by shameless institutions and individuals for their own gain. Malik does miss the point, however, that the 'low-tech' instances of terrorism could be quite genuinely situated as 'authentic' in a way that other methods might not be - especially the use of knives.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 5, 2017)

Edie said:


> That is different to calling for camps to lock up all Muslims indiscriminately. Still shit mind.
> 
> Edit: and didn't Hopkins lose her job for saying it?


But it's only swivel-eyed loons on Fox who are calling for concentration camps. 
Re: Hopkins lost one of her jobs for tweeting that there should be a final solution. I don't think she really believes what she's saying when she says stuff like that. Her saying it does not equate to fascism being on the rise.


----------



## agricola (Jun 5, 2017)

Edie said:


> That is different to calling for camps to lock up all Muslims indiscriminately. Still shit mind.
> 
> Edit: and didn't Hopkins lose her job for saying it?



Hopkins lost her job for making a really rather explicit call for another Holocaust.


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Jun 5, 2017)

agricola said:


> Hopkins lost her job for making a really rather explicit call for another Holocaust.



No. She lost her job for attempting to use language that has (understandably) become loaded with significance, even if that understanding is fundamentally ahistorical. She tried to be clever, and lost out due to a common perception of what particular words are now deemed to refer to.


----------



## cyril_smear (Jun 5, 2017)

..


----------



## alex_ (Jun 5, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> Wasn't Bin Laden also an Arsenal supporter?



And hitler


----------



## Streathamite (Jun 5, 2017)

eoin_k said:


> You realise that Sky is just the version of Fox that the same company thinks it can get away with to a different audience?


more precisely, Sky is the version of Fox news for a country that has - still - fairly stringent regulation concerning what may or may not be broadcast, plus Murdicjh doesn't yet own all of Sky. 
However, given how far up Murdoch's arse Tory politicians have always been, I think you can expect the situation to change very greatly and very quickly, in the event of a tory win.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 5, 2017)

cyril_smear said:


> ..


Quite so.


----------



## Streathamite (Jun 5, 2017)

ruffneck23 said:


> I'll be honest this has freaked me out a bit , after handling a hangover yesterday by going to the pub , woke up this morning, got halfway to work and just couldn't do it  I don't want the fuckers to win but I think I've got a bit of PTSD ,we were not far away after being in the area , I may seem weak but I'm a bit scared


Your feelings are totally understandable, and it's not weak to admnit them - just honest


----------



## agricola (Jun 5, 2017)

Beats & Pieces said:


> No. She lost her job for attempting to use language that has (understandably) become loaded with significance, even if that understanding is fundamentally ahistorical. She tried to be clever, and lost out due to a common perception of what particular words are now deemed to refer to.



If it was anyone else, you could perhaps make that point more reasonably.  However its surely impossible to give someone the benefit of the doubt who has spent months posting tweets attacking "Muslims" in a similar vein and only two months after the Courts sent a very clear, very expensive message to her about the consequences of her tweeting like that.  To suggest she was trying to be clever is to absolve her of responsibility for her actions; she knew exactly what she was doing.


----------



## MightyTibberton (Jun 5, 2017)

This guy is a member of congress apparently. 

I've been saying for a while now that the hatred against Muslims I've seen online is so extreme that I can't see it ending in any other way than some terrible extra-legal act or people in camps of some sort. 

You don't have to look very far to find this stuff any more, it is by no means fringe - or rather the fringe has come into the mainstream and the mainstream is embracing it. I'm often told that London is "lost", Europe is "over" or "surrendered", that I live in a "Sharia country" or a "no-go zone" (that's come up again today). 

This is online, so how it translates into the "real world" is debateable I suppose. But there it is thriving and growing - and of course every event like the one we started discussing here - helps it grow. Did you know Sadiq Khan isn't just a Muslim, he's a documented ISIS supporter? Right wing "commentators" on Twitter with followings in the 10s of thousands will tell you that time and time again. Do people believe it? Who knows. 

But - God forbid - if there's a major Islamist terrorist event in the USA I honestly think that it's fairly likely someone will pick up a gun and go into a Muslim community and start killing people. 

I hope I'm wrong. I am a snowflake after all. But these views are terrifyingly prevalent - over here, too.


----------



## Streathamite (Jun 5, 2017)

MightyTibberton said:


> Are they still going to allow this clown a state visit?


I think he's just guaranteed it will be a whole lot livelier than he'll expect!


----------



## editor (Jun 5, 2017)

This was a beautiful response by the family of the murdered Canadian, Christine Archibald: 


> We grieve the loss of our beautiful, loving daughter and sister,." "She would have had no understanding of the callous cruelty that caused her death. Please honor her by making your community a better place. Volunteer your time and labor or donate to a homeless shelter. Tell them Chrissy sent you."


----------



## phillm (Jun 5, 2017)

Tragically this is the new 'normal' isn't it. If as the security services say they are 3000 persons of interest re jihadis in the UK and they don't need to network or be part of larger cells with guns and bombmaking capabilities just knives and a van/car then there are surely going to many more such tragedies. If say 100 of these 3000 decide to go active then the cumulative effect on our collective psyche, ease at enjoying our cities and faith in the authorities to keep us safe and protected is going to come under extreme pressure. Up till now I had took succour that these few loners couldn't dent us in any existential way now I am not so sure. 

I was out in Vauxhall with my wife and nephew on Saturday night at a gig and we noticed a whole load of ambulances and police vans going by it was only at the end we got alerted as to what was happening and drove home through the Elephant and Castle and saw the commotion and roadblocks whilst listening to the radio. We had a sense of terror , anger and despair that this was happening , nearby to great lovely people in the city we love and cherish and in places that are second nature to us all. I wish I knew there was an answer but like I said we will probably need to harden up , accept a dimunition in our freedom and liberty and hope that ,  in time ,  this will burn itself out.


----------



## planetgeli (Jun 5, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> Wasn't Bin Laden also an Arsenal supporter?





alex_ said:


> And hitler



Worse. Corbyn. Who also supported Hitler and Bin Laden.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 5, 2017)

phillm said:


> will probably need to harden up , accept a dimunition in our freedom and liberty and hope that ,  in time ,  this will burn itself out.


what kind of restrictions are you talking about?


----------



## phillm (Jun 5, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> what kind of restrictions are you talking about?



I don't know , just my gut instinct that things are going to get a lot worse and soon. There will be more barriers, bag searches , increased police surveillance and armed cops both overtg and covert on the streets and a personal fear that will mean you don't go out as much at least not to crowded places and feel that your own personal space and sense of ease has been compromised by these fuckers. I have said to the missus to avoid Oxford Street for the time being which will be no bad thing for the household budget ! I would love to hear a more optimistic spin on all of this if there is one.


----------



## Edie (Jun 5, 2017)

We absolutely must not accept diminution of freedom or liberty. This is the time to stand up more strongly for liberal values and democracy.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 5, 2017)

Streathamite said:


> I think he's just guaranteed it will be a whole lot livelier than he'll expect!


It'll be the poll tax riot, Hyde Park '94, and J18 rolled into one


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 5, 2017)

phillm said:


> I don't know , just my gut instinct that things are going to get a lot worse and soon. There will be more barriers, bag searches , increased police surveillance and armed cops both overtg and covert on the streets and a personal fear that will mean you don't go out as much at least not to crowded places and feel that your own personal space and sense of ease has been compromised by these fuckers. I have said to the missus to avoid Oxford Street for the time being which will be no bad thing for the household budget ! I would love to hear a more optimistic spin on all of this if there is one.


ok, how about the fact that the chances of an individual being killed in a terrorist attack on Oxford Street are minuscule compared to the chances of them getting killed by accident on Oxford Street. Yet we don't feel the need to do any more than the usual precautions to prevent ourselves getting run over by accident.


----------



## phillm (Jun 5, 2017)

Edie said:


> We absolutely must not accept diminution of freedom or liberty. This is the time to stand up more strongly for liberal values and democracy.



This is easy to say and defend if it just a few isolated random 'incidents' that we feel will be contained and curtailed. But what if we have 100 attacks in a 6 month period - which given what we now know is not unfeasible. How will we feel then ? I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion I don't want to contemplate such a situation and wish sincerely to beleive in a more optomistic future.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 5, 2017)

phillm said:


> This is easy to say and defend if it just a few isolated random 'incidents' that we feel will be contained and curtailed. But *what if we have 100 attacks in a 6 month period* - which given what we now know is not unfeasible. How will we feel then ? I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion I don't want to contemplate such a situation and wish sincerely to beleive in a more optomistic future.


what makes you think that might happen?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 5, 2017)

phillm said:


> I don't know , just my gut instinct that things are going to get a lot worse and soon. There will be more barriers, bag searches , increased police surveillance and armed cops both overtg and covert on the streets and a personal fear that will mean you don't go out as much at least not to crowded places and feel that your own personal space and sense of ease has been compromised by these fuckers. I have said to the missus to avoid Oxford Street for the time being which will be no bad thing for the household budget ! I would love to hear a more optimistic spin on all of this if there is one.


You can get everything available on Oxford Street in more congenial surroundings elsewhere


----------



## MightyTibberton (Jun 5, 2017)

Some talk of routine arming of the police on the radio at lunchtime - officers who were on the scene when attack began, a couple of whom heroically tackled attackers with batons I believe, could have ended it if they had "discrete side arms as they do in The Netherlands and Switzerland."


----------



## phillm (Jun 5, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> ok, how about the fact that the chances of an individual being killed in a terrorist attack on Oxford Street are minuscule compared to the chances of them getting killed by accident on Oxford Street. Yet we don't feel the need to do any more than the usual precautions to prevent ourselves getting run over by accident.



Aye thus far that is the situation and one I took refuge in. I'm getting sort of scared now that we're crossing a line in the number and intensity of the attacks. In Manchester I would have thought the 20k at the event will have been traumatised and affected in a very real way. Similarly at London Bridge thousands will have been directly affected and thousands more families and friends. When hundreds and thousands have personally felt the fear rather than experienced it second hand through the media the game changes.


----------



## phillm (Jun 5, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> You can get everything available on Oxford Street in more congenial surroundings elsewhere



or stop shopping as the Reverend Billy would have it !


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 5, 2017)

phillm said:


> or stop shopping as the Reverend Billy would have it !


Yeh. Then you fuck the economy. At times like these you should be buying buying buying


----------



## weltweit (Jun 5, 2017)

MightyTibberton said:


> Some talk of routine arming of the police on the radio at lunchtime - officers who were on the scene when attack began, a couple of whom heroically tackled attackers with batons I believe, could have ended it if they had "discrete side arms as they do in The Netherlands and Switzerland."


Or Germany, France or Spain etc ..
The UK is I think the only European country to have a predominantly unarmed police force.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 5, 2017)

phillm said:


> Aye thus far that is the situation and one I took refuge in. I'm getting sort of scared now that we're crossing a line in the number and intensity of the attacks.


I don't think you can saw we've crossed a line just yet. We've had three in the past two months, but I don't think that makes for a line being crossed.


----------



## phillm (Jun 5, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> what makes you think that might happen?



These idiots don't need any sophistication or materials that aren't readily available , they have a new narrative of terror , kill yourself and as many other innocents as you can in the final suicidal spree and there are literally hundreds of them - 500 have come back from Syria if the figures are to be believed. And most surprisingly some are in relationships and have children so seemingly have enough reasons to live but despite this they beleive in some sinister mediaeval cult and have an urge to 'kill for Allah' whatever the fuck that means. The global and 24 hour rolling news seems to play into their hands.

London attack: Police name Khuram Butt and Rachid Redouane as two of three men responsible – latest updates

_*The Mat’s assistant commissioner, Mark Rowley, added:

At any one time, MI5 and police are conducting around 500 active investigations, involving 3,000 subjects of interest. Additionally, there are around 20,000 individuals who are former subjects of interest, whose risk remains subject to review by MI5 and its partners.

The security and intelligence services and police have stopped 18 plots since 2013, including five since the Westminster attack two months ago.*_


----------



## phillm (Jun 5, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> I don't think you can saw we've crossed a line just yet. We've had three in the past two months, but I don't think that makes for a line being crossed.



Let's sincerely hope so. And that there are only really a handful that are prepared to be suicidal rather than mouthing off to their mates.  I wouldn't like to be a bloke called Mohammed at the moment who's trying to rent a van to move house.


----------



## MightyTibberton (Jun 5, 2017)

Indeed! I'm not quite sure why he picked those two countries. He was a policing expert, not just some guy - I know in some of those other countries, France, for example, they tend to have two levels of police officer, some of them more heavily armed than others, so maybe that's it? I've just Googled the Dutch police and they all carry a small pistol. 

I've always been proud of the fact that the police aren't routinely armed, and gone along with arguments like that's why more criminals aren't routinely armed. I also gather - and could no doubt find out if I care enough! - that the police themselves are (in the majority) against being routinely armed. Cressida Dick, reacting to the idea, said she was against it, and that having more mobile teams was a more effective solution. I guess the idea will gain some traction from this though.


----------



## kebabking (Jun 5, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> what kind of restrictions are you talking about?



Restrictions is perhaps the wrong word - more security doesn't necessarily mean not doing things, it just means them taking longer and being less convenient.

It might mean baggage checks and sniffer dogs at train/bus stations, it might mean car parks being further away from a venue. It could mean making it harder to be 'semi-detached' from the grid - reducing the use of cash and increasing the use of plastic and the ID/tracking that goes with it, having to book hire vehicles 24/48/72 hours in advance, and more physical barriers in public spaces.

None of this stuff - and more police, more armed police, more intelligence analysts and all the rest - is a silver bullet, it's all just friction to make it harder to avoid tripping up and them trying to make attacks less productive and more dangerous.


----------



## phillm (Jun 5, 2017)

One of the attackers appeared in this recent C4 documentary.


----------



## MightyTibberton (Jun 5, 2017)

kebabking said:


> Restrictions is perhaps the wrong word - more security doesn't necessarily mean not doing things, it just means them taking longer and being less convenient.



Since the Paris attacks all bags have been searched and tagged at the football ground I attend. I see they've put up physical barriers on London's bridges today - I should imagine a lot of other cities will do that if they haven't already.


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (Jun 5, 2017)

> The free world... *all of Christendom... is at war with Islamic horror*. Not one penny of American treasure should be granted to any nation who harbors these heathen animals. Not a single radicalized Islamic suspect should be granted any measure of quarter. Their intended entry to the American homeland should be summarily denied. Every conceivable measure should be engaged to hunt them down. *Hunt them, identity them, and kill them. Kill them all. For the sake of all that is good and righteous. Kill them all.*




http://gizmodo.com/congressman-call...source=gizmodo_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow


----------



## alex_ (Jun 5, 2017)

MightyTibberton said:


> Indeed! I'm not quite sure why he picked those two countries. He was a policing expert, not just some guy - I know in some of those other countries, France, for example, they tend to have two levels of police officer, some of them more heavily armed than others, so maybe that's it? I've just Googled the Dutch police and they all carry a small pistol.
> 
> I've always been proud of the fact that the police aren't routinely armed, and gone along with arguments like that's why more criminals aren't routinely armed. I also gather - and could no doubt find out if I care enough! - that the police themselves are (in the majority) against being routinely armed. Cressida Dick, reacting to the idea, said she was against it, and that having more mobile teams was a more effective solution. I guess the idea will gain some traction from this though.



The issue with arming all the police is that most of them will never use it, apart from their mandated annual practice. So when they come to use it will they know what to do ?

Alex


----------



## cyril_smear (Jun 5, 2017)

ABC news is sayibg the attackers have been identified?


----------



## MightyTibberton (Jun 5, 2017)

The police know who they are, but I didn't know they'd released the names.


----------



## BigTom (Jun 5, 2017)

yes:


phillm said:


> These idiots don't need any sophistication or materials that aren't readily available , they have a new narrative of terror , kill yourself and as many other innocents as you can in the final suicidal spree and there are literally hundreds of them - 500 have come back from Syria if the figures are to be believed. And most surprisingly some are in relationships and have children so seemingly have enough reasons to live but despite this they beleive in some sinister mediaeval cult and have an urge to 'kill for Allah' whatever the fuck that means. The global and 24 hour rolling news seems to play into their hands.
> 
> London attack: Police name Khuram Butt and Rachid Redouane as two of three men responsible – latest updates
> 
> ...


----------



## cyril_smear (Jun 5, 2017)

Police identify two of the three London Bridge attackers


----------



## MightyTibberton (Jun 5, 2017)

Two London attackers named by police - BBC News


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Jun 5, 2017)

agricola said:


> If it was anyone else, you could perhaps make that point more reasonably.  However its surely impossible to give someone the benefit of the doubt who has spent months posting tweets attacking "Muslims" in a similar vein and only two months after the Courts sent a very clear, very expensive message to her about the consequences of her tweeting like that.  To suggest she was trying to be clever is to absolve her of responsibility for her actions; she knew exactly what she was doing.



I am, in no way, attempting to be reasonable regarding Hopkins, my point is that her very attempt at cleverness makes her absolutely responsible for what she wrote - that is not the same as her being responsible for the reaction it provoked (for which she was clearly unthinking and unprepared), nor does it suggest a directly intended and causal relationship between the two.


----------



## Blagsta (Jun 5, 2017)

Bags being searched was normal in London in the 70s and 80s, going into museums, department stores, cinemas etc


----------



## existentialist (Jun 5, 2017)

phillm said:


> Tragically this is the new 'normal' isn't it. If as the security services say they are 3000 persons of interest re jihadis in the UK and they don't need to network or be part of larger cells with guns and bombmaking capabilities just knives and a van/car then there are surely going to many more such tragedies. If say 100 of these 3000 decide to go active then the cumulative effect on our collective psyche, ease at enjoying our cities and faith in the authorities to keep us safe and protected is going to come under extreme pressure. Up till now I had took succour that these few loners couldn't dent us in any existential way now I am not so sure.
> 
> I was out in Vauxhall with my wife and nephew on Saturday night at a gig and we noticed a whole load of ambulances and police vans going by it was only at the end we got alerted as to what was happening and drove home through the Elephant and Castle and saw the commotion and roadblocks whilst listening to the radio. We had a sense of terror , anger and despair that this was happening , nearby to great lovely people in the city we love and cherish and in places that are second nature to us all. I wish I knew there was an answer but like I said we will probably need to harden up , accept a dimunition in our freedom and liberty and hope that ,  in time ,  this will burn itself out.


I am prepared to accept a diminution in my freedom and liberty if it is proportionate to the benefits deriving therefrom. However, I have seen nothing in my 50+ years to show that any amount of "getting tough" a) makes any real difference to the threat, or b) isn't going to be misapplied to get around inconvenient civil liberties for those 99.999% of us who are not terrorists, Islamic or otherwise.

When I can see some real reassurance that my liberty is not simply being given away for no benefit, I might be persuadable. So far, that is yet to happen, and it is my belief that we should be doing the job properly by ensuring that these people aren't being radicalised in the first place.

But that means doing the kind of things that those who become moist in the trouser department about Big Tough Security don't like, like addressing social isolation and poverty, fostering better links between cultures, making sure that inclusion, particularly of young people, is built into everything we do with them, and so on.

I don't see that happening any time soon, either.


----------



## phillm (Jun 5, 2017)

Worryingly a lot of concerned muslims seem to have tipped off some of these recent headbangers to the services and no action has been taken. I could accept say 10,000 more security services if this meant a blanket surveillance of 'hot leads' so much so they were unable to operate and as an alternative to totally unacceptable internment which wouldn't even work. Why the fuck we are wasting money on Trident when we have a much more very real threat now - if it's a straight financial swap.  May should be hung out to dry both as Home Secretary and PM of cuts that could have made a real difference in intelligence led operations - Corbyn is bang on the money in this instance. I read somwhere it takes 18 operatives to full time surveil one target. So if there are 500 persons of interests then 10,000 more should do the job.


----------



## phillm (Jun 5, 2017)

Khurum Butt appears at 16.30 into this film - he is wearing a hat and sunglasses.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 5, 2017)

phillm said:


> Worryingly a lot of concerned muslims seem to have tipped off some of these recent headbangers to the services and no action has been taken. I could accept say 10,000 more security services if this meant a blanket surveillance of 'hot leads' so much so they were unable to operate and as an alternative to totally unacceptable internment which wouldn't even work. Why the fuck we are wasting money on Trident when we have a much more very real threat now - if it's a straight financial swap.  May should be hung out to dry both as Home Secretary and PM of cuts that could have made a real difference in intelligence led operations - Corbyn is bang on the money in this instance. I read somwhere it takes 18 operatives to full time surveil one target. So if there are 500 persons of interests then 10,000 more should do the job.


30 not 18 is the figure I've seen


----------



## phillm (Jun 5, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> 30 not 18 is the figure I've seen



I'll split the difference .....if you are a marxist/anarchist/animal rightist/eco 'terrorist' you can probably breathe easy now - you are no longer a person of interest - assuming you ever were. MI5 have no doubt stood down the U75 surveillance team.

_*“If you assume that at any given point there are 500 or 600 potentially violent extremists in the country and that it takes 20, 25 people to keep somebody under surveillance 24/7, inevitably given that resources are limited you can only watch maybe 50, 60 people at any given time 24/7.

“All the others, you have to opt for lesser forms of surveillance, so constantly you have to decide who is really dangerous, who is less dangerous and who is perhaps not even dangerous at all. And inevitably mistakes are being made.”*_

Only a fraction of terror suspects can be watched 24/7


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 5, 2017)

phillm said:


> I'll split the difference .....if you are a marxist/anarchist/animal rightist/eco 'terrorist' you can probably breathe easy now - you are no longer a person of interest - assuming you ever where. MI5 have no doubt stood down the U75 surveillance team.
> 
> _*“If you assume that at any given point there are 500 or 600 potentially violent extremists in the country and that it takes 20, 25 people to keep somebody under surveillance 24/7, inevitably given that resources are limited you can only watch maybe 50, 60 people at any given time 24/7.
> 
> ...


Around 30 MI5 in race to hire spooks to fight back against 23,000 jihadists on the loose


----------



## phillm (Jun 5, 2017)

Ok 30 then - maybe they should recruit a Dad's Army of retirees, concerned 'internet citizens' , others who could have tasks allocated to them - such as monitoring social media , you tube etc for jihadist material and get it taken down.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 5, 2017)

phillm said:


> Ok 30 then - maybe they should recruit a Dad's Army of retirees, concerned 'internet citizens' , others who could have tasks allocated to them - such as monitoring social media , you tube etc for jihadist material and get it taken down.


Yeh. Sounds like internet vigilantes to me. "concerned citizens" very er nixonian


----------



## Corax (Jun 5, 2017)

Edie said:


> Ah, apologies, may have misunderstood. What do you think there's no difference in then? The predisposition of people to pretend they are worried/scared to justify concentration camps?


No worries.

Another misunderstanding though.  I've not contended that there's no difference, just that I have no reason to think that there is one.  Until evidence to the contrary, I'll err towards people in different countries not thinking/behaving differently because of political borders.


----------



## phillm (Jun 5, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh. Sounds like internet vigilantes to me. "concerned citizens" very er nixonian



Don't panic...Dad's Army is the clue there


----------



## Casually Red (Jun 5, 2017)

weltweit said:


> Or Germany, France or Spain etc ..
> The UK is I think the only European country to have a predominantly unarmed police force.



South of Ireland too .


----------



## Edie (Jun 5, 2017)

Corax said:


> No worries.
> 
> Another misunderstanding though.  I've not contended that there's no difference, just that I have no reason to think that there is one.  Until evidence to the contrary, I'll err towards people in different countries not thinking/behaving differently because of political borders.


Ah right. Sure. I take that pretty much as a given tbh. 

I still think there remains quite a significant difference between the UK and US in how accepted far right and fascist ideas are tolerated. What do you think?


----------



## gosub (Jun 5, 2017)

phillm said:


> Khurum Butt appears at 16.30 into this film - he is wearing a hat and sunglasses.





BBC4  News seemed to be saying ..coz he was in a Channel 4 documentary , intel should have realised he was a potential terrorist and done more to stop him...rather than the more obvious course of action of writing him off as a blow hard.  Still, cunt's dead now.


----------



## kebabking (Jun 5, 2017)

phillm said:


> ..I read somwhere it takes 18 operatives to full time surveil one target. So if there are 500 persons of interests then 10,000 more should do the job.



It's 30+ to do the physical surveillance, more to do the investigations, more to keep track of money, communications, more to decide if all this new information means anything, more to provide the technical support, more to provide the IT, more to provide the logistics...

The security service has around 23,000 'potential problems' on its list, 3,000 of which are at the (probably quite subjectively determined) serious end of that list and the rest - where a good proportion of the terrorists we've seen recently have sat - in the 'fuck alone knows' pile.

You aren't talking about another 10,000, you're talking about the best part of a _million_ members of the security service to keep physical and electronic track of 23,000 potentials.

The issue of armed Police is similar - to maintain a nationwide 'critical' level of physical security for any period of time you aren't talking about finding the 2,000 extra armed plod (crucially however the loss of armed plod has been in Authorized Firearms Officers, not the much more highly trained and heavily armed Specialist Firearms Officers and the top level Counter Terrorist SFO's), you're talking about another 9,000 or so.

Even then you'd still need Army support to backfill Armed Plod roles in order to get plod out on the street.


----------



## teqniq (Jun 5, 2017)

More Than 130 Imams Refuse To Perform Attackers' Funeral Prayers Following London And Manchester Incidents


----------



## Casually Red (Jun 5, 2017)

As regards Theresa Mays announcement that in the aftermath of this thing there needs to be " difficult conversations " and the like it doesn't look like the conversation will get too difficult for some .

'Sensitive' UK terror funding inquiry may never be published

Wasting everyone's time on this she and her mates are . A key ally is up to its neck in this stuff and they'll do fuck all about it .


----------



## Edie (Jun 5, 2017)

Casually Red said:


> As regards Theresa Mays announcement that in the aftermath of this thing there needs to be " difficult conversations " and the like it doesn't look like the conversation will get too difficult for some .
> 
> 'Sensitive' UK terror funding inquiry may never be published
> 
> Wasting everyone's time on this she and her mates are . A key ally is up to its neck in this stuff and they'll do fuck all about it .


Demanded by the Lib Dems


----------



## phillm (Jun 5, 2017)

kebabking said:


> It's 30+ to do the physical surveillance, more to do the investigations, more to keep track of money, communications, more to decide if all this new information means anything, more to provide the technical support, more to provide the IT, more to provide the logistics...
> 
> The security service has around 23,000 'potential problems' on its list, 3,000 of which are at the (probably quite subjectively determined) serious end of that list and the rest - where a good proportion of the terrorists we've seen recently have sat - in the 'fuck alone knows' pile.
> 
> ...



crikey there goes my comfort blanket then. There must be some pretty hair-raising war gaming going on in the corridoors of power. Based no doubt around how many deaths can we take before the threat becomes 'existential'.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 5, 2017)

Edie said:


> Demanded by the Lib Dems


Tm will have quivered for a moment, holding in laughter

Having the Lib Dems demand something is a joke


----------



## phillm (Jun 5, 2017)

teqniq said:


> More Than 130 Imams Refuse To Perform Attackers' Funeral Prayers Following London And Manchester Incidents



Christians of course should pursue forgiveness and turning the other cheek.


----------



## gosub (Jun 5, 2017)

Casually Red said:


> As regards Theresa Mays announcement that in the aftermath of this thing there needs to be " difficult conversations " and the like it doesn't look like the conversation will get too difficult for some .
> 
> 'Sensitive' UK terror funding inquiry may never be published
> 
> Wasting everyone's time on this she and her mates are . A key ally is up to its neck in this stuff and they'll do fuck all about it .


BAE: secret papers reveal threats from Saudi prince


----------



## phillm (Jun 5, 2017)

gosub said:


> BAE: secret papers reveal threats from Saudi prince



and I wonder if this cunt did any real 'stir' back in Saudi.

Saudi Prince jailed in Britain for sexually abusing and murdering his male servant flies home to serve the rest of his life sentence | Daily Mail Online


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 5, 2017)

phillm said:


> Christians of course should pursue forgiveness and turning the other cheek.


Yeh they'll get a slap on that side too


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 5, 2017)

phillm said:


> and I wonder if this cunt did any real 'stir' back in Saudi.
> 
> Saudi Prince jailed in Britain for sexually abusing and murdering his male servant flies home to serve the rest of his life sentence | Daily Mail Online


Life's hell in one of those Saudi palaces


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 5, 2017)

I went past today


----------



## phillm (Jun 5, 2017)

gosub said:


> BAE: secret papers reveal threats from Saudi prince



at this level of perfidy you feel you are straying into major 'conspiriloon' territory which just happens to be true.


----------



## phillm (Jun 5, 2017)

Gramsci said:


> I went past today View attachment 108556 View attachment 108559



the way things are going I should advise my 'sensitive' 15 year old nephew to become a florist.


----------



## phillm (Jun 5, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> Life's hell in one of those Saudi palaces



here is a prince's plane..


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 5, 2017)

phillm said:


> here is a prince's plane..


A gilded cage


----------



## gindygoo (Jun 5, 2017)

editor said:


> This was a beautiful response by the family of the murdered Canadian, Christine Archibald:



I know it sounds soppy, but when I read that this morning it actually brought a tear to my eye. It's the same when I read of the devastation I places like Syria though, it actually triggers a physical reaction.

We as a species should be thoroughly ashamed of where we are at. You know we've got the intelligence and ability to eradicate starvation and poverty worldwide, but no, we're still fighting over pathetic pieces of paper with some woman's head on it


----------



## kebabking (Jun 5, 2017)

phillm said:


> ...There must be some pretty hair-raising war gaming going on in the corridoors of power...



There is.

As a rough guide OP Temperer - the MOD support to Plod for a 'critical' alert level - can draw on up to 5,000 troops, and it allows plod to maintain its posture for about two weeks before the polis are knackered out doing 14 hour shifts 7 days a week doing the counter-terrorism role as well as normal policing.

At that point they either need reinforcement - more troops to take up more roles - or they start to roll back some of the regular policing activity.

At full whack the Army/Navy/RAF could provide about 30,000 on a continuous basis while retaining some warfighting capability, or perhaps 50,000 in a surge for a limited period - however some of the specialist tasks that the MOD is providing (bomb disposal, search teams, special forces, electronic warfare etc..) simply can't be surged to the same degree.


----------



## phillm (Jun 5, 2017)

My 15 year nephew who was staying with us for the weekend wanted to go and see the 'media circus' at London Bridge on Sunday. Reluctantly we agreed but made him promise to respect the place , keep silent and not to take photographs. We parked up about 250m away from the cordon. The place was eerily quiet and we passed quite a few locals who were in shock, red-eyed , crying , distressed. There were a lot of those. And when we got to the cordon there were around 20 -30 camera crews, reporters, radio/print/tv , a battery of TV vans and police armed and unarmed. It was desparately sad , you could feel it etched in the air , in the faces of those affected. Then there was the adrenaline fuelled 'geezer' who had seen it all happening , wide-eyed and hyper - with a queue of camera crews lining up to interview him. Seemingly almost enjoying his moment in the sun of global attention - though I'm sure he wasnt. And there was a group of respectful muslims who had come down to pay their respects and express their condenmation - I should have approcahed them and offered to shake their hands and share a moment together. But I didn't , so we crept away , red-eyed and saddened at man's inumanity to man and despairing at what could motivate anybody to commit such barbarism to innocents on a joyful night out. I will never understand that.


----------



## snadge (Jun 5, 2017)

gosub said:


> BBC4  News seemed to be saying ..coz he was in a Channel 4 documentary , intel should have realised he was a potential terrorist and done more to stop him...rather than the more obvious course of action of writing him off as a blow hard.  Still, cunt's dead now.



He is more than a fucking blowhard.


There are a lot more blowhards out there as well.


----------



## gosub (Jun 5, 2017)

snadge said:


> He is more than a fucking blowhard.



As events turned out, evidently.  
However, ordinarily thems that does is not the same as thems that talks it up on telly.


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 5, 2017)

MightyTibberton said:


> Some talk of routine arming of the police on the radio at lunchtime - officers who were on the scene when attack began, a couple of whom heroically tackled attackers with batons I believe, could have ended it if they had "discrete side arms as they do in The Netherlands and Switzerland."



In London police are routinely armed. The police with batons were British Transport Police. London Bridge is right by a station.

The reason the terrorists were killed so quickly is that armed police are routinely placed around London just in case. I see them parked up near important places. 

So routine arming in practice has already happened in London. It's not even that discreet. I regularly see officers with small sidearms.

This might not be the case outside London.


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (Jun 5, 2017)

phillm said:


> here is a prince's plane..



My god that's tacky.


----------



## gosub (Jun 5, 2017)

Yuwipi Woman said:


> My god that's tacky.


most fit outs for Arabs overdo the gold to a point thats telling.




Leather seats, its not like he's ever going to put it on the charter market


----------



## weltweit (Jun 5, 2017)

Quite a thoughtful article
Police and MI5 face further scrutiny after third attack since March


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 5, 2017)

Yuwipi Woman said:


> My god that's tacky.



Money has never equalled taste.


----------



## Anudder Oik (Jun 5, 2017)

weltweit said:


> Quite a thoughtful article
> Police and MI5 face further scrutiny after third attack since March




Pilger says that the Manchester bomber was part of a community of anti gaddafi assets.
TERROR IN BRITAIN: WHAT DID THE PRIME MINISTER KNOW?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 5, 2017)

Anudder Oik said:


> Pilger says that the Manchester bomber was part of a community of anti gaddafi assets.
> TERROR IN BRITAIN: WHAT DID THE PRIME MINISTER KNOW?


About the 18th time it's been posted here

Do you have an opinion on it?


----------



## eoin_k (Jun 5, 2017)

gosub said:


> most fit outs for Arabs overdo the gold to a point thats telling.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Is it comforting to be ruled by an elite with more refined taste?


----------



## Who PhD (Jun 5, 2017)

gosub said:


> BAE: secret papers reveal threats from Saudi prince


and still the stupid cow will capitulate to these fucking monsters


----------



## Buckaroo (Jun 5, 2017)

phillm said:


> One of the attackers appeared in this recent C4 documentary.




The bouncy castle business is too much rubber dinghy rapids for my liking. I blame Chris Morris, hell fire's too good for him.


----------



## Casually Red (Jun 5, 2017)

gosub said:


> BAE: secret papers reveal threats from Saudi prince



He made similar threats to Putin ..in putins own house no less ..as regards Sochi while offering him carrot and stick . Billion dollar investments in Russia , joint oil and gas ventures , guarantee of no terror attacks in return for throwing Assad under the bus . Admitted he pretty much controlled the Chechens . Putin not only leaked the threats and bribes but told him to his face they'd been well aware for the past decade who controlled caucuses terror , and  later sent his airforce in to blow up the princes takfiris in large numbers  . 
Seems to have gotten a tad more change out of Blair . But the point is these Saudi fuckers are pretty brazen about it all when they want to be . Saw them described somewhere as arsonists acting as firefighters..or something like that .


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (Jun 5, 2017)

eoin_k said:


> Is it comforting to be ruled by an elite with more refined taste?



Can't say that it is:


----------



## Raheem (Jun 5, 2017)

eoin_k said:


> Is it comforting to be ruled by an elite with more refined taste?


Wouldn't it be awful if you put a lemon french fancy down somewhere in that room and then forgot where?


----------



## alfajobrob (Jun 5, 2017)

Ho ho ho...it's all really funny....what the fuck you saying?


----------



## 8den (Jun 5, 2017)

I think DB is going to be on Newsnight later.


----------



## Casually Red (Jun 5, 2017)

Anudder Oik said:


> Pilger says that the Manchester bomber was part of a community of anti gaddafi assets.
> TERROR IN BRITAIN: WHAT DID THE PRIME MINISTER KNOW?




This is a bit interesting too . Especially bearing in mind one of the London attackers was a Libyan based in Ireland . It's quite likely both those cunts could be linked to that Qatari and CIA run outfit . Feted as heroes by the Irish media for quite a while too . The Irish government opened the place up as a safe haven for them . Before during and after the Libyan escapade . Wonder who encouraged them to do that ?

Former Tripoli Brigade leader Mahdi al-Harati outed as US asset - World Socialist Web Site


----------



## alfajobrob (Jun 5, 2017)

Raheem said:


> Wouldn't it be awful if you put a lemon french fancy down somewhere in that room and then forgot where?



Wouldn't it be awful if you just got killed for no reason....


----------



## Humberto (Jun 5, 2017)

Putin is no better, represents a country no better.​


----------



## alfajobrob (Jun 5, 2017)

Humberto said:


> Putin is no better, represents a country no better.​



Sorry - but what has Putin to do with this>?


----------



## Ming (Jun 5, 2017)

gosub said:


> BAE: secret papers reveal threats from Saudi prince


I think he's broken the law in a quite significant way there hasn't he? Obstruction of justice and aiding terrorism. Can't we arrest him?


----------



## alfajobrob (Jun 5, 2017)

Just sick of apologists...this, this that and the other....


----------



## Humberto (Jun 5, 2017)

*wipes tear*


----------



## alfajobrob (Jun 5, 2017)

Humberto said:


> *wipes tear*



Prick...do you go there everyday?


----------



## Humberto (Jun 5, 2017)

alfajobrob said:


> Prick...do you go there every day?



What?


----------



## alfajobrob (Jun 5, 2017)

Humberto said:


> What?



You heard...stop being an f'idiot.


----------



## Humberto (Jun 5, 2017)

Sorry I don't even know enough about you as a poster or your argument to begin to formulate an argument. You might be a fucking idiot for all I know.

in other words

never mind


----------



## Corax (Jun 5, 2017)

Edie said:


> Ah right. Sure. I take that pretty much as a given tbh.
> 
> I still think there remains quite a significant difference between the UK and US in how accepted far right and fascist ideas are tolerated. What do you think?


Dammit Edie, you won't let me go on this will you?  FFS.  

If you insist on drawing me into a debate I _really_ don't want to have then I'll at least need more clarity on your question.  Whilst it's necessarily practical to generalise sociopolitical geographical areas to pose questions such as the one you've asked, IMO the borders you've drawn are far, far too wide.  Even within the UK the answer for Brighton would be very different from that of Chipping Norton or Dundee - and the landmass of the US... East Coast vs West Coast, and subdivided so on...?

Given that, I genuinely can't answer your question in any meaningful way.

I acknowledge that there might be discussions to be had over NY vs London, Texas and Cornwall or something - but UK and US just seems too meaningless to give an opinion on.

Someone with better cross-atlantic knowledge may be able to - but not me.  Are we still allowed to state that *I don't know* is our best answer to a given question?

I kinda wish that more people would.


----------



## alfajobrob (Jun 5, 2017)

x

Apologies - I thought you were being a wanker.


----------



## existentialist (Jun 5, 2017)

alfajobrob said:


> You heard...stop being an f'idiot.


Charm school still going well, I see...


----------



## scifisam (Jun 5, 2017)

phillm said:


> This is easy to say and defend if it just a few isolated random 'incidents' that we feel will be contained and curtailed. But what if we have 100 attacks in a 6 month period - which given what we now know is not unfeasible. How will we feel then ? I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion I don't want to contemplate such a situation and wish sincerely to beleive in a more optomistic future.



100 attacks in a six month period is not unfeasible, it's incredibly unlikely. It'd be one of the biggest terror campaigns in history, if not the biggest. I can understand people feeling a bit scared but this is going overboard.


----------



## Raheem (Jun 6, 2017)

alfajobrob said:


> Wouldn't it be awful if you just got killed for no reason....



I suppose so, you ridiculous prick.


----------



## eoin_k (Jun 6, 2017)

phillm said:


> One of the attackers appeared in this recent C4 documentary.




Interesting how that film shows multiple incidents of the police keeping the peace after these daesh scum have provoked muslims into a physical confrontation with them. Obviously it's a police role to keep the peace, but it put the lie to the myth of muslims being generally reluctant to oppose them.


----------



## agricola (Jun 6, 2017)

Beats & Pieces said:


> I am, in no way, attempting to be reasonable regarding Hopkins, my point is that her very attempt at cleverness makes her absolutely responsible for what she wrote - that is not the same as her being responsible for the reaction it provoked (for which she was clearly unthinking and unprepared), nor does it suggest a directly intended and causal relationship between the two.



Have you been following her tweets since the attack on Saturday?


----------



## Nine Bob Note (Jun 6, 2017)

Is there some sort of script I can install so that I can read a news website without having to look at those two ugly fucking cunts everytime?


----------



## bubblesmcgrath (Jun 6, 2017)

phillm said:


> One of the attackers appeared in this recent C4 documentary.




Chillingly frightening how the radicals interviewed see themselves....and how uneducated and easily manipulated some are....
"Makes me feel important".... one says when asked how he feels about his passport being taken off him by UK authorities for his propagandising of ISIS.

One of them, Abu Halima says,  "Theresa May could stop all this if she gave us our passports back....I'd take my family and go back (to Syria? Not sure where..he doesn't say) 
He says that he thinks all his fellow muslim supporters of IS would leave to go back to the middle east so they can practice Sharia Islam. 

Worth a watch if only to see how persistent they are in their recruitment of others.... and how provocative... The way Abu Halima taunts the police...and the way they taunt and challenge the kurdish muslims they encounter while protesting against the UK and democracy....and everything he hates about western civilisation.

The interviewer at one stage mentions that Abu sometimes drives a bus in London...... 
That may change now.


----------



## phillm (Jun 6, 2017)

scifisam said:


> 100 attacks in a six month period is not unfeasible, it's incredibly unlikely. It'd be one of the biggest terror campaigns in history, if not the biggest. I can understand people feeling a bit scared but this is going overboard.



Let's hope so, and besides worrying about something that hasn't happened and we have no control over is not a good way to live our lives. Time heals very quickly if you are not directly affected by these tragic events.


----------



## phillm (Jun 6, 2017)

"Jihadis are cleverly evading the authorities by appearing in documentaries about jihadis with the word jihadi in the title."


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Jun 6, 2017)

phillm said:


> "Jihadis are cleverly evading the authorities by appearing in documentaries about jihadis with the word jihadi in the title."


 
Don't worry, once encryption is illegal they'll have no place to hide


----------



## JuanTwoThree (Jun 6, 2017)

On a slightly lighter note, because if we are not being allowed lighter notes then the terrorists have won (hyperbole but you see what I mean) here's Roy Larner who is 47 and ¡Millwall!

London Bridge hero knifed five times as he fought terrorists to save others

"The men with knives must have come into the pub and started on him and he would have fronted them up"  said his mum.


----------



## phillm (Jun 6, 2017)

JuanTwoThree said:


> On a slightly lighter note, because if we are not being allowed lighter notes then the terrorists have won (hyperbole but you see what I mean) here's Roy Larner who is 47 and ¡Millwall!
> 
> London Bridge hero knifed five times as he fought terrorists to save others
> 
> "The men with knives must have come into the pub and started on him and he would have fronted them up"  said his mum.



He'll be getting free pints bought for him for the rest of his life. Great story, great fella - these jihadis rather like the United 93 flight on 9-11 are going to find a lot of have a go heroes who will fight back if their nights out are disturbed by these cunts.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jun 6, 2017)

JuanTwoThree said:


> On a slightly lighter note, because if we are not being allowed lighter notes then the terrorists have won (hyperbole but you see what I mean) here's Roy Larner who is 47 and ¡Millwall!
> 
> London Bridge hero knifed five times as he fought terrorists to save others
> 
> "The men with knives must have come into the pub and started on him and he would have fronted them up"  said his mum.



There are lots of stories about ordinary people fighting back - despite the odds and the fact they were tooled up and wearing 'suicide vests' - against the jihadis. These people are very brave because it must be terrifying. I hope plenty of chairs, bottles, glasses, punches etc landed before they were gunned down.


----------



## 8den (Jun 6, 2017)

phillm said:


> He'll be getting free pints bought for him for the rest of his life. Great story, great fella - these jihadis rather like the United 93 flight on 9-11 are going to find a lot of have a go heroes who will fight back if their nights out are disturbed by these cunts.




A problem with staging terror attacks in a city with this many football clubs. High odds you'll bump into some Chelsea or Millwall fans. Proper psychopaths.


----------



## D'wards (Jun 6, 2017)

8den said:


> A problem with staging terror attacks in a city with this many football clubs. High odds you'll bump into some Chelsea or Millwall fans. Proper psychopaths.


Lots of lethal available weapons to hand in a bar too, as i recall witnessing from my younger days in the Blue Orchid


----------



## 8den (Jun 6, 2017)

D'wards said:


> Lots of lethal available weapons to hand in a bar too, as i recall witnessing from my younger days in the Blue Orchid



Anyone remember John Smeaton?

"No letting these guys get away with it, got get this sorted"


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 6, 2017)

D'wards said:


> Lots of lethal available weapons to hand in a bar too, as i recall witnessing from my younger days in the Blue Orchid


fewer heavy glass ashtrays knocking about these days tho


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jun 6, 2017)

8den said:


> A problem with staging terror attacks in a city with this many football clubs. High odds you'll bump into some Chelsea or Millwall fans. Proper psychopaths.



My old HEMA club spars in the area around London Bridge, as does my Archery club. The thought of them bursting in then quietly shuffling out and fucking off elsewhere when presented with an array of sharper more deadly weaponry amuses me.


----------



## ShiftyBagLady (Jun 6, 2017)

8den said:


> A problem with staging terror attacks in a city with this many football clubs. High odds you'll bump into some Chelsea or Millwall fans. Proper psychopaths.


I can confirm that at least one millwall fan was battering them with glasses. Bittersweet proof that the world maybe does need millwall fans after all...


----------



## D'wards (Jun 6, 2017)

Really it was only a marginally successful attack, comparitively.  When me mam lives in Edenbridge they have a load of festivals and parades etc. Its quite a stand-alone town not that close to any city. These cunts could have done so much more damage in a place like that before any armed police turned up.


----------



## Spymaster (Jun 6, 2017)

8den said:


> A problem with staging terror attacks in a city with this many football clubs. High odds you'll bump into some Chelsea or Millwall fans. Proper psychopaths.


For a Millwall fan that was probably a pretty normal day.


----------



## existentialist (Jun 6, 2017)

D'wards said:


> Really it was only a marginally successful attack, comparitively.  When me mam lives in Edenbridge they have a load of festivals and parades etc. Its quite a stand-alone town not that close to any city. These cunts could have done so much more damage in a place like that before any armed police turned up.


I don't think it's just about the body count though: if that attack had took place in, say, Edenbridge, it would have still been shocking and made the news...but would it have had the psychological impact of one at a place far, far more people will have been to, and which, as a city, represents the heart of our society?

I know it's pointless speculating, but my guess is that these cunts are aiming for maximum impact at many levels, not just offing a few infidels.


----------



## D'wards (Jun 6, 2017)

In my own limited understanding as to why they kill people like this is;

i) An apostate is one who has left the faith
ii) Isis consider anyone who doesn't follow their narrow brand of Islam an apostate, muslim or not
iii) The Koran states the punishment for Apostasy is death
iv) If someone murders an apostate they are carrying out Allah's will and they die doing so will be rewarded with a warrior's heaven.

Can anyone confirm nor deny this?


----------



## 8den (Jun 6, 2017)

Artaxerxes said:


> My old HEMA club spars in the area around London Bridge, as does my Archery club. The thought of them bursting in then quietly shuffling out and fucking off elsewhere when presented with an array of sharper more deadly weaponry amuses me.



3 guys tried to jump my wife's Krav Maga class one night. The sight of all the women immediately taking up fight stances while the men pissed themselves laughing was so unnerving, the muggers ran off.


----------



## 8den (Jun 6, 2017)

D'wards said:


> In my own limited understanding as to why they kill people like this is;
> 
> i) An apostate is one who has left the faith
> ii) Isis consider anyone who doesn't follow their narrow brand of Islam an apostate, muslim or not
> ...



A major reason for ISIS attacks is the desire to provoke the west into a holy war against the whole of Islam. Hence the reason why Hopkins, Piers et all, are doing exactly what they want.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 6, 2017)

8den said:


> A major reason for ISIS attacks is the desire to provoke the west into a holy war against the whole of Islam. Hence the reason why Hopkins, Piers et all, are doing exactly what they want.


ah, they're doing the jihadis' work


----------



## Who PhD (Jun 6, 2017)

Are these attacks actually affiliated with ISIS? Perhaps naive to think otherwise, but oen of their tactics is to claim responsibility for anything remotely related to muslim fundie violence or committed by someone who the media assume to be muslim.


----------



## Who PhD (Jun 6, 2017)

D'wards said:


> In my own limited understanding as to why they kill people like this is;
> 
> i) An apostate is one who has left the faith
> ii) Isis consider anyone who doesn't follow their narrow brand of Islam an apostate, muslim or not
> ...


I think it's political not religious. Islam is a cultural backdrop.


----------



## D'wards (Jun 6, 2017)

8den said:


> A major reason for ISIS attacks is the desire to provoke the west into a holy war against the whole of Islam. Hence the reason why Hopkins, Piers et all, are doing exactly what they want.


So they can wipe out all apostates and rule the world?

The whole thing is massively bogus anyway cos they have declared a caliphate without a caliph, so its not even recognised in huge parts the islamic world


----------



## 8den (Jun 6, 2017)

ShiftyBagLady said:


> I can confirm that at least one millwall fan was battering them with glasses. Bittersweet proof that the world maybe does need millwall fans after all...



If I honestly had to choose between ISIS and a tube full of Chelsea fans on their way to White Hart Lane, I'd have to have a serious think about it.


----------



## agricola (Jun 6, 2017)

D'wards said:


> So they can wipe out all apostates and rule the world?
> 
> The whole thing is massively bogus anyway cos they have declared a caliphate without a caliph, so its not even recognised in huge parts the islamic world



al-Baghdadi has been declared Caliph.  What makes his elevation bogus is that, according to their interpretation of how a caliph is appointed, such an elevation should only be given by the Muslim community coming to a consensus.


----------



## 8den (Jun 6, 2017)

Who PhD said:


> Are these attacks actually affiliated with ISIS? Perhaps naive to think otherwise, but oen of their tactics is to claim responsibility for anything remotely related to muslim fundie violence or committed by someone who the media assume to be muslim.



ISIS would claim responsibility if a Muslim sneezed on a Jew in Stamford Hill. I think the days of co-ordinated mass terror attacks like 9/11 are behind us. What we are seeing are people radicalised or self-radicalised and carrying out attacks off their own bat in the name of ISIS. Think of it as a Franchise, not a Corporation.



D'wards said:


> So they can wipe out all apostates and rule the world?



Pretty much. Not far off what many Christain fundamentalists think as well (but with Jesus Christ returning to defeat the great Satan of the UN or something).


> The whole thing is massively bogus anyway cos they have declared a caliphate without a caliph, so its not even recognised in huge parts the islamic world



Hence the reason that ISIS/Boko Haram represents something like .001% of the world's Muslims. It's honestly like giving Catholics shit for the Westborough Baptist Church.


----------



## eoin_k (Jun 6, 2017)

D'wards said:


> In my own limited understanding as to why they kill people like this is;
> 
> i) An apostate is one who has left the faith
> ii) Isis consider anyone who doesn't follow their narrow brand of Islam an apostate, muslim or not
> ...



However fucked up their worldview is, they seem to realise that we aren't all apostates for what it is worth. From the little I have followed about daesh and from documentaries like _The Jihadis Next Door_, they draw a fundamentalist (i.e. based on a literalist reading of passages of the Koran) distinction between apostates, other non-believers and the people of the book (Jews and Christians). Hence Yazidis were fair game for genocide in Sinjar if they didn't convert, while Christians and Jews were supposedly 'allowed' to pay a dhimmi instead. Since Christians in the West are among the people of the book, the victims in Manchester had to be represented as crusaders etc...


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## Old Spark (Jun 6, 2017)

D'wards said:


> In my own limited understanding as to why they kill people like this is;
> 
> i) An apostate is one who has left the faith
> ii) Isis consider anyone who doesn't follow their narrow brand of Islam an apostate, muslim or not
> ...



Now when I talk to God I knew he'd understand
He said sit by me and i'll be your guiding hand
But dont ask me what I think of you.
I might not give you the answer that you are wanting me to
Oh well


----------



## Dogsauce (Jun 6, 2017)

This is an interesting perspective on Anjem Choudary, blamed for radicalising one of the London Bridge attackers, pointing the finger at the media for increasing his reach and appeal:



Edit: can't seem to stop this auto-embedding, you need to click on the top of the tweet to see the whole thread.


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## 8den (Jun 6, 2017)

Dogsauce said:


> This is an interesting perspective on Anjem Choudary, blamed for radicalising one of the London Bridge attackers, pointing the finger at the media for increasing his reach and appeal:
> 
> 
> 
> Edit: can't seem to stop this auto-embedding, you need to click on the top of the tweet to see the whole thread.




I replied to that thread, I was working a lot in broadcast news between 2005-2008 and many journalists were angry Choundry was given a platform.


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## xenon (Jun 6, 2017)

Worth remembering many of the scum that have gone to fight with Daech have at best, only a passing acquaintance with the Kuran in any case. Again, trying to say this stuff has nothing to do with Islam on one hand or saying these attacks are motivated by a particular interpretation of Islam don't get us very far.

Atomisation, alienation from mainstream culture, failure to contend with the complexities of a modern pluralistic capitalist society, wannabe soldier / gangster / a somebody, fucked up ideas of masculinity have something to do with it.

Obligatory "I reckon".


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## sealion (Jun 6, 2017)

ShiftyBagLady said:


> I can confirm that at least one millwall fan was battering them with glasses. Bittersweet proof that the world maybe does need millwall fans after all...


He was indeed. Thankfully Roy is making a good recovery and should be home soon.


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## agricola (Jun 6, 2017)

8den said:


> I replied to that thread, I was working a lot in broadcast news between 2005-2008 and many journalists were angry Choundry was given a platform.



They still are giving them a platform - the _Mail_ is full of content that comes from Amaq.


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## sealion (Jun 6, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> fewer heavy glass ashtrays knocking about these days tho


No pool balls or cue's either


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## 8den (Jun 6, 2017)

agricola said:


> They still are giving them a platform - the _Mail_ is full of content that comes from Amaq.



Which feeds the beast of Mad Mel, Hopkins et all, it's almost like they're fostering a climate of hate and fear, but no newspaper would ever do that.


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## Anudder Oik (Jun 6, 2017)

8den said:


> A major reason for ISIS attacks is the desire to provoke the west into a holy war against the whole of Islam. Hence the reason why Hopkins, Piers et all, are doing exactly what they want.



As far as I can see, the piers/Hopkins position is one of supporting a rounding up of "suspects" from an already established list of dangerous extremists, ie, over 400 death cult members who have returned from Syria and a further 3500 deemed as linked to terrorism, who like to parade in parks with isis flags long before they kill.

Can you explain how targetting this limited group plays into the hands of isis?

Do you think it will provoke all muslims?

If so, does it mean you associate all muslims in some way with these suspects?


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## sealion (Jun 6, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> fewer heavy glass ashtrays knocking about these days tho


 The goold old days.


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## Raheem (Jun 6, 2017)

Anudder Oik said:


> 3500 deemed as linked to terrorism, who like to parade in parks with isis flags long before they kill.



If this were how it is, then you'd have a point. In reality, it's not a simple as that.


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## Anudder Oik (Jun 6, 2017)

It would be useful to know the qualifications for getting onto that list.


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## ffsear (Jun 6, 2017)

Incident in pairs now


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## ffsear (Jun 6, 2017)

Paris's Notre Dame: Police responding to 'gunshots' - BBC News


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## ffsear (Jun 6, 2017)

Should Just have a generic terror thread really.


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## cyril_smear (Jun 6, 2017)

ffsear said:


> Paris's Notre Dame: Police responding to 'gunshots' - BBC News



Another 40 pages then...


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## Raheem (Jun 6, 2017)

cyril_smear said:


> Another 40 pages then...



It seems like a relatively minor incident. Someone tried to attack a copper. No deaths, although the attacker has been shot (according to French TV news).


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## Pickman's model (Jun 6, 2017)

Raheem said:


> It seems like a relatively minor incident. Someone tried to attack a copper. No deaths, although the attacker has been shot (according to French TV news).


all quiet on the western front


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## Anudder Oik (Jun 6, 2017)

Why is it taking so long for them to release the names of the victims? There are families still without news ffs.


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## gentlegreen (Jun 6, 2017)

Raheem said:


> It seems like a relatively minor incident. Someone tried to attack a copper. No deaths, although the attacker has been shot (according to French TV news).



An attack with a hammer - it had me looking up the exact meaning of "tirs de riposte" .... and thence to a host of fencing terms ...


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## Pickman's model (Jun 6, 2017)

gentlegreen said:


> An attack with a hammer - it had me looking up the exact meaning of "tirs de riposte" .... and thence to a host of fencing terms ...


en garde!


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## 8den (Jun 6, 2017)




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## joustmaster (Jun 6, 2017)

D'wards said:


> In my own limited understanding as to why they kill people like this is;
> 
> i) An apostate is one who has left the faith
> ii) Isis consider anyone who doesn't follow their narrow brand of Islam an apostate, muslim or not
> ...


Its in the magical moses book. So yeah. Jews, Christians, and Muslims all have it in their religious books.


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## belboid (Jun 6, 2017)

Anudder Oik said:


> Why is it taking so long for them to release the names of the victims? There are families still without news ffs.


They don't release names till they know the families have all been informed.


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## gindygoo (Jun 6, 2017)

It does seem since the Manchester attack though, that getting the victims identified and their respective families informed has been a complete fucking shambles? 

It's not 'usual' that ppl are out looking for loved ones, when there's surely bodies in a morgue unidentified.? I guess in the bombing, that's partially understandable but this latest London attack surely didn't create the kind of damage that refers ppl unidentifiable?

It just seems a bit 'off' (obvs just in my humble laypersons opinion, of course).


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## phillm (Jun 6, 2017)

D'wards said:


> So they can wipe out all apostates and rule the world?
> 
> The whole thing is massively bogus anyway cos they have declared a caliphate without a caliph, so its not even recognised in huge parts the islamic world



Why don't we invite them all over here to debate such points and once they arrive jump the bastards and give them a good hiding. Or alternatively with an eye on exports post Brexit find out if there is anything they need that we could sell such as arms, home grown jihadis , execution equipment and the like. We could accept payment in gold/oil or US dollars. We need to start thinking 'outside of that box' if we are to prosper once again !

It would be particulary good to flog the home grown jihadis where we could no doubt implant then with micro bombs to be exploded once they got to the Raqqa lair. The 'suicide' bomber turned back on Isis - that would indeed be a triumph for British ingenuity. Now where's Q.....


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## bimble (Jun 6, 2017)

joustmaster said:


> Its in the magical moses book. So yeah. Jews, Christians, and Muslims all have it in their religious books.


Do you mean the Old Testament? Don't think that's quite true but that's a pointless discussion anyway, dusty old books are really not very relevant here.


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## tommers (Jun 6, 2017)

I thought this was quite informative about the motivations of ISIS

What ISIS Really Wants

Not sure if it's been posted already.


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## cyril_smear (Jun 6, 2017)

unwatch; getting boring now.


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## LDC (Jun 6, 2017)

gindygoo said:


> It does seem since the Manchester attack though, that getting the victims identified and their respective families informed has been a complete fucking shambles?
> 
> It's not 'usual' that ppl are out looking for loved ones, when there's surely bodies in a morgue unidentified.? I guess in the bombing, that's partially understandable but this latest London attack surely didn't create the kind of damage that refers ppl unidentifiable?
> 
> It just seems a bit 'off' (obvs just in my humble laypersons opinion, of course).



It's a fucking huge complex crime scene, and evidence will need to be gathered, cause of deaths established, DNA found and taken, identification of bodies (and bits of them) need to be done, etc etc. Not to mention making sure the right people have been informed correctly rather than in haste and erroneously.

All on top of the usual police work in this area of course.


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## phillm (Jun 6, 2017)

gentlegreen said:


> An attack with a hammer - it had me looking up the exact meaning of "tirs de riposte" .... and thence to a host of fencing terms ...



If I was ISIS I would denounce this attack for damaging the brand. Or maybe he is from the fluffier end of the spectrum - still hard though.


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## Spymaster (Jun 6, 2017)

Anudder Oik said:


> Why is it taking so long for them to release the names of the victims? There are families still without news ffs.


Wrong way round. It's taking so long _because_ they're telling the families before it goes public.


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## joustmaster (Jun 6, 2017)

bimble said:


> Do you mean the Old Testament? Don't think that's quite true but that's a pointless discussion anyway, dusty old books are really not very relevant here.


Well, for Christians it's called the Old Testament.
And yes, they do talk about putting people to death who are apostates.


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## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 6, 2017)

bimble said:


> Do you mean the Old Testament? Don't think that's quite true but that's a pointless discussion anyway, dusty old books are really not very relevant here.



Deuteronomy 13:1-16. Fortunately it can be rejected as applicable to anyone other than the ancient Israelites. Which I guess is the sort of historical contextualisation that most Muslims make when coming across such passages in the Quran.


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## phillm (Jun 6, 2017)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Deuteronomy 13:1-16. Fortunately it can be rejected as applicable to anyone other than the ancient Israelites. Which I guess is the sort of historical contextualisation that most Muslims make when coming across such passages in the Quran.



Christians in the New Testament are a bit more masochistic which suits me - if these nutjobs followed Jesus they would be cutting their own bits off rather than other peoples. 

*Matthew 5:29-30King James Version (KJV)*
29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.


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## Pickman's model (Jun 6, 2017)

bimble said:


> Do you mean the Old Testament? Don't think that's quite true but that's a pointless discussion anyway, dusty old books are really not very relevant here.


Yeh right

tommers very interesting article suggests otherwise


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## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 6, 2017)

phillm said:


> Christians in the New Testament are a bit more masochistic which suits me - if these nutjobs followed Jesus they would be cutting their own bits off rather than other peoples.
> 
> *Matthew 5:29-30King James Version (KJV)*
> 29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
> ...



I'm not sure that's meant to be taken literally. Anyway, as bimble said, this isn't really the thread for it. Interesting topic as it is.


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## Pickman's model (Jun 6, 2017)

phillm said:


> Christians in the New Testament are a bit more masochistic which suits me - if these nutjobs followed Jesus they would be cutting their own bits off rather than other peoples.
> 
> *Matthew 5:29-30King James Version (KJV)*
> 29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
> ...


Always wondered how you deal with it if your right hand offends you and you lop it off, and then your left hand offends you. What do you do then, eh? Caught in a cleft stick so to speak


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## phillm (Jun 6, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> Always wondered how you deal with it if your right hand offends you and you lop it off, and then your left hand offends you. What do you do then, eh? Caught in a cleft stick so to speak



My right hand has never offended me , disgusted me for sure.


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## Anudder Oik (Jun 6, 2017)

Spymaster said:


> Wrong way round. It's taking so long _because_ they're telling the families before it goes public.



Not according to the spanish family who have flown over and still have no news.


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## phillm (Jun 6, 2017)

FFS Abu Rumaysah one of the Isis nutjobs who went to Syria still has an active twitter account spouting hate. If anyone knows how to report this stuff please do. 

Abu Rumaysah (@ideological786) | Twitter


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## belboid (Jun 6, 2017)

Anudder Oik said:


> Not according to the spanish family who have flown over and still have no news.


Well that will probably be because they don't have anything definite to tell them. Do you think they are deliberately not telling relatives info?


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## Spymaster (Jun 6, 2017)

Anudder Oik said:


> Not according to the spanish family who have flown over and still have no news.


Nobody can give them the news or even know who they ID the victims and find the families. Or do you think the families would rather first hear of the deaths of their kin by reading their names on the BBC website?


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## Anudder Oik (Jun 6, 2017)

Spymaster said:


> Nobody can give them the news or even know who they ID the victims and find the families. Or do you think the families would rather first hear of the deaths of their kin by reading their names on the BBC website?



They are complaining of being kept in the dark by the authorities. The family know nothing, they are in London and still haven't been told anything. This spanish man hit one of the terrorists with his skateboard and was last seen going down under a hail of stabbings by the other two who attacked him from behind.

The family still haven't been told anything by anyone. It's a fucking shambles like the intelligence services who received warnings but ignored them. Everything is a fucking mess and people are suffering because of it.

Un español, desaparecido tras enfrentarse a los terroristas de Londres


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## Anudder Oik (Jun 6, 2017)

48 hours later, the family have come to London and still have no answer from authorities.

Absolutely shite.

Ignacio Echevarría was part of a group crossing the bridge, the only one to stop and try to help a woman who was being attacked with knives. All the british government has to offer is silence.

Disgusting.

For the family he is just missing. Think about that.


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## Wilf (Jun 6, 2017)

Anudder Oik said:


> This spanish man hit one of the terrorists with his skateboard and was last seen going down under a hail of stabbings by the other two who attacked him from behind.


Fucking hell.   Apart from on the night itself I must have been subconsciously avoiding the individual stories of what happened. Just too awful. Fucking hell.


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## belboid (Jun 6, 2017)

Anudder Oik said:


> 48 hours later, the family have come to London and still have no answer from authorities.
> 
> Absolutely shite.
> 
> ...


Do you think the police are deliberately withholding information? If so, what evidence have you got to back that up? If you don't have any, why don't you consider the other reasons why the police would have said nothing.


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## Anudder Oik (Jun 6, 2017)

Wilf said:


> Fucking hell.   Apart from on the night itself I must have been subconsciously avoiding the individual stories of what happened. Just too awful. Fucking hell.



There are loads of individual stories, some temporarily give relief, like the spanish bar owner who pressed his weight against the door to stop one of the terrorists entering his bar to  kill people, or the Millwall fan who charged at them with his fists and was stabbed eight times trying to stop them. He, thankfully has survived and is in hospital. His friends have bought him abook called " How to run".

Another hooli lobbed chairs and bottles at them. In fact, they must have been the most beat up jihadi terrorists to date.


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## Anudder Oik (Jun 6, 2017)

belboid said:


> Do you think the police are deliberately withholding information? If so, what evidence have you got to back that up? If you don't have any, why don't you consider the other reasons why the police would have said nothing.



I don't know what the authorities are doing but if they have a family who have flown over from spain and who are concerned about their loved one, they should fucking get their finger out and tell them asap, rather than prolong their confusion and pain.

Do you understand that?


----------



## belboid (Jun 6, 2017)

Anudder Oik said:


> I don't know what the authorities are doing but if they have a family who have flown over from spain and who are concerned about their loved one, they should fucking get their finger out and tell them asap, rather than prolong their confusion and pain.
> 
> Do you understand that?


Oh my gosh,no I didn't! I needed a complete knob to explain it to me!! A family of a missing man are worried about him, I'd never have guessed.

For about the sixth time, maybe the police just don't know anything. Would you prefer they just made something up?


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## Treacle Toes (Jun 6, 2017)

The only reason they wouldn't confirm that info to the family is if they couldn't? How did the family know he had been involved? Did he have ID on him that the authorities can use to speculate? Are they awaiting  test results to confirm his identity as to avoid mistakes?

I saw a clip today of the sister of a victim who said that the police informed them of her brother's death because a bank card was found on one of the bodies. So they do, take risks in identification. The fact that they haven't or can't with the Spanish man must have more to it?


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## Anudder Oik (Jun 6, 2017)

This video is from a latin american news channel. If you are sensitive you shouldn't watch it, full stop. 

This sort of thing is censored in the uk and replaced with a wishy washy official narrative with key words like love and candles and shit.

The witness is there filmingwith his mobile and counting the injured on the bridge, he says:

_"5, 6, they ran them over. Whoever did this has no heart, no no no, there's another person there. This one is dying, no no no no. _After that you hear an english women begging her companion to "keep going".

Like I said, don't watch if sensitive and gullible to the official narrative.


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## Anudder Oik (Jun 6, 2017)

Rutita1 said:


> The only reason they wouldn't confirm that info to the family is if they couldn't? How did the family know he had been involved? Did he have ID on him that the authorities can use to speculate? Are they awaiting  test results to confirm his identity as to avoid mistakes?
> 
> I saw a clip today of the sister of a victim who said that the police informed them of her brother's death because a bank card was found on one of the bodies. So they do, take risks in identification. The fact that they haven't or can't with the Spanish man must have more to it?



Put the article I linked into a translator.


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## D'wards (Jun 6, 2017)

Anudder Oik said:


> This video is from a latin american news channel. If you are sensitive you shouldn't watch it, full stop.
> 
> This sort of thing is censored in the uk and replaced with a wishy washy official narrative with key words like love and candles and shit.
> 
> ...



So you are implying that if you don't wish to see voyeuristic footage of people dead and dying you are gullible or over sensitive? Bollocks.


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## Wilf (Jun 6, 2017)

Anudder Oik said:


> Put the article I linked into a translator.


I'm not a great fan of the British state and I'm not even sure which bit is making the decisions on this, police, coroners?  But in the end I don't think they are doing this out of callousness.  They may be being 'procedural', they may just be being cautious to avoid making things worse.  I just don't know.

What would be unforgiveable would be if they are not _communicating_ with the families and giving them every bit of information they usefully can do.   But is there any _evidence_ that they are not communicating with families?

Edit: all badly put, what I really mean is: is there any evidence the authorities are being actively inhumane?  I haven't seen any.


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## Treacle Toes (Jun 6, 2017)

Anudder Oik said:


> Put the article I linked into a translator.



I read, write and speak fairly decent Spanish so I didn't need a translator. The article explicitly says that the hold up in identification is because of DNA tests and even his family realise that because he was out 'doing sports' he was unlikely to have any documentation on him. All obvious things really.

I am in no way excusing the delay. It sucks...but calm down.


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## Anudder Oik (Jun 6, 2017)

D'wards said:


> So you are implying that if you don't wish to see voyeuristic footage of people dead and dying you are gullible or over sensitive? Bollocks.



You have a point there, but you can't deny that there is a concerted effort in the media to turn us all into accepting idiots. I made the post to force a point to anyone who still buys the official propaganda version of candles and love and who do not question the cynical narrative of May and company. 

They'll show you a dead refugee on a beach but not one of your own as it doesn't fit the narrative. Maybe for you  it was unnecessary as the majority in the UK are most surely fuming at the politicians about their tolerance of extremism but don't slate me for having a go.


----------



## belboid (Jun 6, 2017)

The news has just had a report on four or five people who are still missing. No one knows where they are.  It's feared at least one was thrown into the river. But no one knows. They're not 'refusing' to tell anyone anything.


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## ddraig (Jun 6, 2017)

Anudder Oik said:


> You have a point there, but you can't deny that there is a concerted effort in the media to turn us all into accepting idiots. I made the post to force a point to anyone who still buys the official propaganda version of candles and love and who do not question the cynical narrative of May and company.
> 
> They'll show you a dead refugee on a beach but not one of your own as it doesn't fit the narrative. Maybe for you  it was unnecessary as the majority in the UK are most surely fuming at the politicians about their tolerance of extremism but don't slate me for having a go.


please shut up, your agenda is naked, "one of your own" ?? are those your words or did you c&p from somewhere?


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## Treacle Toes (Jun 6, 2017)

Anudder Oik said:


> This video is from a latin american news channel. If you are sensitive you shouldn't watch it, full stop.
> 
> This sort of thing is censored in the uk and replaced with a wishy washy official narrative with key words like love and candles and shit.
> 
> ...





For pities sake...that video isn't half as gruesome, nor as explicit, as half of the stuff that is posted up on FB or even shown in the news in the UK nowadays. I have seen far more disturbing still pictures on the front pages of tabloids also.

For sure, knowing what we do...that vid is horrible, but it isn't IN YOUR FACE HORROR by any stretch.... again...calm down.


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## Anudder Oik (Jun 6, 2017)

ddraig said:


> please shut up, your agenda is naked, "one of your own" ?? are those your words or did you c&p from somewhere?



"One of your own" is a reference to someone who you can identify with as near to your existence, not thousands of miles away. It's a figure of speech and has relevance given that nowadays the only cool solidarity is that which casts it's benevolence as far away as possible. A totally middle class trait. I see this all the time here, it's fucking crass.

Love the distant, hate the near.


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## ddraig (Jun 6, 2017)

Anudder Oik said:


> "One of your own" is a reference to someone who you can identify with as near to your existence, not thousands of miles away. It's a figure of speech and has relevance given that nowadays the only cool solidarity is that which casts it's benevolence as far away as possible. A totally middle class trait. I see this all the time here, it's fucking crass.
> 
> Love the distant, hate the near.


you're fucking crass, and crap


----------



## belboid (Jun 6, 2017)

Anudder Oik said:


> "One of your own" is a reference to someone who you can identify with as near to your existence, not thousands of miles away. It's a figure of speech and has relevance given that nowadays the only cool solidarity is that which casts it's benevolence as far away as possible. A totally middle class trait. I see this all the time here, it's fucking crass.
> 
> Love the distant, hate the near.


Have you got any evidence the police are deliberately withholding information?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jun 6, 2017)

belboid said:


> Have you got any evidence the police are deliberately withholding information?


Give it a couple of hours and it'll be all _blowback from Madeleine McCann_ or whatnot


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 6, 2017)

Anudder Oik said:


> "One of your own" is a reference to someone who you can identify with as near to your existence, not thousands of miles away. It's a figure of speech and has relevance given that nowadays the only cool solidarity is that which casts it's benevolence as far away as possible. A totally middle class trait. I see this all the time here, it's fucking crass.
> 
> Love the distant, hate the near.



How about us MANY people who from birth, have been nurtured to 'love the distant' because we are from other, distant places too? I am working class and love near and far.  Your binaries are ridiculous! My benevolence isn't a class trait in the slightest. What's crass is your insistence that somehow you know all there is to know on the subject.


----------



## Anudder Oik (Jun 6, 2017)

Rutita1 said:


> How about us MANY people who from birth, have been nurtured to 'love the distant' because we are from other, distant places too? I am working class and love near and far.  Your binaries are ridiculous! My benevolence isn't a class trait in the slightest. What's crass is your insistence that somehow you know all there is to know on the subject.



I can feel solidarity with near and far too (during the miners strike I met a miner's wife collecting for south african miners on strike, I will never forget that) but what I see more is the far as that is more trendy, it's easier because the near are smelly and on the dole and proles, etc...

It's a political question about a shift away from class politics towards retarded identity politics which just floats in the air and gets nowhere. Anyway, that's off point. I have posted a video that you would not otherwise see. It will make you sad and angry when the official narrative is feeding everyone soma.


----------



## ddraig (Jun 6, 2017)

Anudder Oik said:


> I can feel solidarity with near and far too (during the miners strike I met a miner's wife collecting for south african miners on strike, I will never forget that) but what I see more is the far as that is more trendy, it's easier because the near are smelly and on the dole and proles, etc...
> 
> It's a political question about a shift away from class politics towards retarded identity politics which just floats in the air and gets nowhere. Anyway, that's off point. I have posted a video that you would not otherwise see. It will make you sad and angry when the official narrative is feeding everyone soma.


you? off the point? really?
what is this diversion of yours about?

e2a don't bother, stopping now as also derailing thread


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## Spymaster (Jun 6, 2017)

Anudder Oik said:


> "One of your own" is a reference to someone who you can identify with as near to your existence, not thousands of miles away. It's a figure of speech and has relevance given that nowadays the only cool solidarity is that which casts it's benevolence as far away as possible. A totally middle class trait. I see this all the time here, it's fucking crass.
> 
> Love the distant, hate the near.


What a load of shit


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## belboid (Jun 6, 2017)

Anudder Oik said:


> I can feel solidarity with near and far too (during the miners strike I met a miner's wife collecting for south african miners on strike, I will never forget that) but what I see more is the far as that is more trendy, it's easier because the near are smelly and on the dole and proles, etc...
> 
> It's a political question about a shift away from class politics towards retarded identity politics which just floats in the air and gets nowhere. Anyway, that's off point. I have posted a video that you would not otherwise see. It will make you sad and angry when the official narrative is feeding everyone soma.


Have you got any evidence the police are deliberately withholding information?


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## rekil (Jun 6, 2017)

Has Tim Pool done a totally balanced video about how the PC sheeple are being suckered by zionist shill Ariana Grande's "wishy washy official narrative with key words like love and candles and shit" while simultaneously being guilty of loving drowned rapefugees more than victims of terrorism in their own city or something?


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## Ming (Jun 6, 2017)

8den said:


>



"Allah! Allah!"...."Fuck you! I'm Millwall!!". That and the guy not abandoning his pint. I'm not a huge fan of nationalism but i felt a lump in my throat (and i support Tranmere Rovers).


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## agricola (Jun 6, 2017)

Of course, when discussing the delay in DNA results that are apparently behind some of the delays in notifying the families of people who may have died in this attack, it is worth pointing out that the Forensic Science Service was something else that was privatized under May's watch as Home Secretary.


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## belboid (Jun 6, 2017)

Ming said:


> (and i support Tranmere Rovers).




If any of them had been in a Notlob shirt, we'd have torn them to pieces.


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## Ming (Jun 6, 2017)

belboid said:


> If any of them had been in a Notlob shirt, we'd have torn them to pieces.


 Well you've got to support your local team (I'm from The Wirral).


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## ShiftyBagLady (Jun 6, 2017)

I heard an interesting piece on the radio about the identification of bodies after the Manchester bombing. They made some interesting points about the differing processes involved, what counts as a body part and what counts as a body and how each part is treated... Really made me think about the job that it is to obtain a full and positive id. Also, the bodies are  precious evidence, particularly with bombings, so the delay in the Manchester case was not really surprising. 

It was on PM on radio four, possibly Thursday or Friday, if anyone wants to dig it out, I'm fucked and I can't be bothered


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## Anudder Oik (Jun 7, 2017)

The spanish family have provided ID and DNA samples and have been told they will have to wait another 24 to 48 hours for confirmation, according to the vanguardia spanish newspaper today. They communicate via the spanish consulate and have no direct contact with any british representatives.

It is also reported that there are more people missing than are in the morgue or hospitals.


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## Pickman's model (Jun 7, 2017)

Anudder Oik said:


> The spanish family have provided ID and DNA samples and have been told they will have to wait another 24 to 48 hours for confirmation, according to the vanguardia spanish newspaper today. They communicate via the spanish consulate and have no direct contact with any british representatives.
> 
> It is also reported that there are more people missing than are in the morgue or hospitals.


yeh. link or source pls


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## Anudder Oik (Jun 7, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh. link or source pls




El Gobierno denuncia la situación desesperante de la familia de Ignacio Echevarría

“La familia de Ignacio Echeverría está pasando una situación inhumana y desesperante”. Así lo ha denunciado el ministro del Interior, Juan Ignacio Zoido, 

The family...are passing a desperate inhuman situation, claims the spanish foreign secretary..


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## belboid (Jun 7, 2017)

Anudder Oik said:


> The spanish family have provided ID and DNA samples and have been told they will have to wait another 24 to 48 hours for confirmation, according to the vanguardia spanish newspaper today. They communicate via the spanish consulate and have no direct contact with any british representatives.
> 
> It is also reported that there are more people missing than are in the morgue or hospitals.


And is there any evidence police are deliberately withholding information?


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## Pickman's model (Jun 7, 2017)

Anudder Oik said:


> El Gobierno denuncia la situación desesperante de la familia de Ignacio Echevarría
> 
> “La familia de Ignacio Echeverría está pasando una situación inhumana y desesperante”. Así lo ha denunciado el ministro del Interior, Juan Ignacio Zoido,
> 
> The family...are passing a desperate inhuman situation, claims the spanish foreign secretary..


google translation of oik's story



where's that say there are more people missing than there are bodies in the morgue or survivors in hospital?


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## Nanker Phelge (Jun 7, 2017)

Breaking news: London attack police find body in river - BBC News

Police searching for French national Xavier Thomas, 45, missing since London terror attack, recover body from Thames


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## D'wards (Jun 7, 2017)

Does that make the death toll eight? Or was he already accounted for?


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## Nanker Phelge (Jun 7, 2017)

D'wards said:


> Does that make the death toll eight? Or was he already accounted for?


 
Guardian is saying 8


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## clicker (Jun 7, 2017)

Maybe police have cctv footage of the initial impact from the car and it showed someone going over the bridge but they needed a body to identify and eliminate others missing


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## gentlegreen (Jun 7, 2017)




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## Dogsauce (Jun 7, 2017)

Sometimes 'missing people' can be wrongfully connected to events which they are nothing to do with - if you're overseas and following an event like this try to contact a friend/relative that you know lives or works nearby, but can't get an answer from them, then it's likely you report them to police and they're considered as a possible victim. Some people have very limited contact with friends and family, won't have shared mobile numbers etc. so it's not uncommon to have a longer list of potential victims than bodies.


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## phillm (Jun 7, 2017)

Ming said:


> "Allah! Allah!"...."Fuck you! I'm Millwall!!". That and the guy not abandoning his pint. I'm not a huge fan of nationalism but i felt a lump in my throat (and i support Tranmere Rovers).





ShiftyBagLady said:


> I heard an interesting piece on the radio about the identification of bodies after the Manchester bombing. They made some interesting points about the differing processes involved, what counts as a body part and what counts as a body and how each part is treated... Really made me think about the job that it is to obtain a full and positive id. Also, the bodies are  precious evidence, particularly with bombings, so the delay in the Manchester case was not really surprising.
> 
> It was on PM on radio four, possibly Thursday or Friday, if anyone wants to dig it out, I'm fucked and I can't be bothered



It would have been very confilicting if a bunch of EDL had been carousing in the area and happened to take the cunts down.


Dogsauce said:


> Sometimes 'missing people' can be wrongfully connected to events which they are nothing to do with - if you're overseas and following an event like this try to contact a friend/relative that you know lives or works nearby, but can't get an answer from them, then it's likely you report them to police and they're considered as a possible victim. Some people have very limited contact with friends and family, won't have shared mobile numbers etc. so it's not uncommon to have a longer list of potential victims than bodies.



I remember in the good old pre-mobile days the alerts on Radio 4 to 'get in touch' - they went the along the lines of 'could Peter Harrison who is believed to be holidaying in the Algarve get in touch with his family urgently. Or something like that.


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## Sirena (Jun 7, 2017)

I've just seen this.  I don't know if it's been posted already.  It's how the terrorist attack concluded, so don't look if you don't want to see.

It's from a facebook page that has nothing to do with me


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## MightyTibberton (Jun 7, 2017)

Would that be The Tommy Robinson as in EDL Tommy Robinson? 

Who's leaking videos to him then?


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## Treacle Toes (Jun 7, 2017)

Sirena said:


> I've just seen this.  I don't know if it's been posted already.  It's how the terrorist attack concluded, so don't look if you don't want to see.
> 
> It's from a facebook page that has nothing to do with me




Is there something amazing or revealing about that vid?

If not why on earth would you link to that arsehole's page/links?

He wasn't there was he? So linking like this credits him/his profile where he should be told to pipe down.


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## A380 (Jun 7, 2017)

phillm said:


> It would have been very confilicting if a bunch of EDL had been carousing in the area and happened to take the cunts down.
> 
> 
> I remember in the good old pre-mobile days the alerts on Radio 4 to 'get in touch' - they went the along the lines of 'could Peter Harrison who is believed to be holidaying in the Algarve get in touch with his family urgently. Or something like that.


But that was MI5 getting in touch with their officer Mr Standfast as he was being pursued across the highlands by the Boche.


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## MAD-T-REX (Jun 7, 2017)

The mainstream media have picked up that video. 

It's always good/essential to have a healthy scepticism around police shootings, but they arrived just as those fuckers were trying to hack someone to death and said fuckers then ran at the police with knives and (fake) bomb vests. There was no time for messing about with a taser and the number of shots is more understandable after seeing that video - the coppers would have thought that any one of those shits would explode, killing them, other officers, the victim on the ground and people in the crowd at the end of the street.


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## Treacle Toes (Jun 7, 2017)

MAD-T-REX said:


> The mainstream media have picked up that video.
> 
> It's always good/essential to have a healthy scepticism around police shootings, but _t*hey arrived just as those fuckers were trying to hack someone to death and said fuckers then ran at the police with knives and (fake) bomb vests. There was no time for messing about with a taser and the number of shots is more understandable after seeing that video - the coppers would have thought that any one of those shits would explode, killing them, other officers, the victim on the ground and people in the crowd at the end of the street*_.



Is that a summary of the contents of the video?


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## not-bono-ever (Jun 8, 2017)

odd innit- when the Met had their massive and well publicised service for the copper who was killed at Westminster at Southwark catherdal a few weeks ago, I did think to myself that London Bridge/ Borough market would be an obvious target for some kind of attack as I was cycling over it. Shit


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## Celyn (Jun 8, 2017)

You're a clairvoyant precognitive anti-terror detective.


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## not-bono-ever (Jun 8, 2017)

scarey- i have been looking at defensive architecture in new builds in the city of late- LB just seemed so iconic but so open


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## Orang Utan (Jun 8, 2017)

Rutita1 said:


> Is there something amazing or revealing about that vid?
> 
> If not why on earth would you link to that arsehole's page/links?
> 
> He wasn't there was he? So linking like this credits him/his profile where he should be told to pipe down.


Whose page was it from?


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## existentialist (Jun 8, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> Whose page was it from?


The test in the top corner says "Tommy Robinson".


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## Pickman's model (Jun 8, 2017)

not-bono-ever said:


> scarey- i have been looking at defensive architecture in new builds in the city of late- LB just seemed so iconic but so open


Yeh stephen graham of new military urbanism fame would have something to say about that


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## Pickman's model (Jun 8, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> Whose page was it from?


Simply reading the thread will reveal all


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## 5t3IIa (Jun 8, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> Whose page was it from?


If it's the same one I saw it on channel 4 news on fb.


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## 5t3IIa (Jun 8, 2017)




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## Spymaster (Jun 8, 2017)

Great work by the old bill.


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## Pickman's model (Jun 8, 2017)

Spymaster said:


> Great work by the old bill.


Yeh but you're easily impressed, pa


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## Spymaster (Jun 8, 2017)

For a police force without routinely armed coppers, killing all three of those fuckpigs within eight minutes of the attack starting is pretty impressive, son.


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## not-bono-ever (Jun 8, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh stephen graham of new military urbanism fame would have something to say about that


 

how odd, I guessed you would post this up - I am reading this ATM

My ESP is on fire this month.


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## not-bono-ever (Jun 8, 2017)

Spymaster said:


> Great work by the old bill.


 
they left the handbrake off their motor though - they should be taken to task for that


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## Orang Utan (Jun 8, 2017)

not-bono-ever said:


> My ESP is on fire this month.


who's going to win the General Election?


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## not-bono-ever (Jun 8, 2017)

Cons with 35 soemthing seats I think , I cant make out the numbers as I don't have my glasses on


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## Pickman's model (Jun 8, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> who's going to win the General Election?


Fuck the general election, which horses will win today?


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## Dogsauce (Jun 8, 2017)

phillm said:


> I remember in the good old pre-mobile days the alerts on Radio 4 to 'get in touch' - they went the along the lines of 'could Peter Harrison who is believed to be holidaying in the Algarve get in touch with his family urgently. Or something like that.



I remember those well, one of those things (like missing cat notices) that would give me that little bit of heartbreak even though I've no connection to it.


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## sealion (Jun 8, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> who's going to win the General Election?


A liar.


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## bi0boy (Jun 8, 2017)

Wilf said:


> I'm not a great fan of the British state and I'm not even sure which bit is making the decisions on this, police, coroners?  But in the end I don't think they are doing this out of callousness.  They may be being 'procedural', they may just be being cautious to avoid making things worse.  I just don't know.
> 
> What would be unforgiveable would be if they are not _communicating_ with the families and giving them every bit of information they usefully can do.   But is there any _evidence_ that they are not communicating with families?
> 
> Edit: all badly put, what I really mean is: is there any evidence the authorities are being actively inhumane?  I haven't seen any.



A woman whose daughter was killed in the 7/7 tube bombings was on Radio 4 after the Manchester attack talking about her campaign for victims of such attacks to be formally identified more quickly. Apparently it was obvious from the body that it was her daughter but due to an admin fuckup or something she wasn't told for days. No one communicated with her and she just kept ringing the special phone number they give out only to be told nothing of value. It seems it's something the authorities definitely need to work on.


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## weltweit (Jun 11, 2017)




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## maomao (Jun 11, 2017)

weltweit said:


>



Finally, someone other than me remembers this happening.


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## D'wards (Jun 11, 2017)

Reports in that the self-declared caliph Al Bagdhadi has snuffed it in an air strike. 

Oh well...


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## mather (Jun 11, 2017)

D'wards said:


> Reports in that the self-declared caliph Al Bagdhadi has snuffed it in an air strike.
> 
> Oh well...



If true, good! I hope it was slow and painful.


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## Ranbay (Jul 6, 2017)

Millwall fan named 'Lion of London Bridge' spits at man during racist rant

Millwall fan hailed as 'Lion of London Bridge' after terror attack is filmed spitting in man's face during vile racist rant

Roy Larner - who was stabbed eight times during the Borough Market terror attack - has been filmed screaming horrific abuse at a black Movement for Justice protester


"Shut up you c***," he shouts. "F*** off you spastic paedophile c***.

"W****** - I'll smash the life out of you.

"People like you stink like s***.

"Motherless c***, from a c***, f*** off, keep moving, f*** off you foreign c***, f*** off you ape c***.

"I'll f*** your mum, I'll f*** your mum."

Roy then shouts "National Front" three of four times before walking into the path of a bus.

Shouting to the driver, while pointing at the protester, he says: "Mow down the black c***."


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## extra dry (Jul 6, 2017)

Ranbay said:


> Millwall fan named 'Lion of London Bridge' spits at man during racist rant
> 
> Millwall fan hailed as 'Lion of London Bridge' after terror attack is filmed spitting in man's face during vile racist rant
> 
> ...




I thought he would be a mix of Ghandi and the Dhai lama. Sad they say never meet your heros.


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## The Octagon (Jul 6, 2017)

Ranbay said:


> Millwall fan named 'Lion of London Bridge' spits at man during racist rant
> 
> *Roy then shouts "National Front" three of four times before walking into the path of a bus*.
> 
> "



Sounds about right


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## Spymaster (Jul 6, 2017)

Ranbay said:


> Millwall fan named 'Lion of London Bridge' spits at man during racist rant
> 
> Millwall fan hailed as 'Lion of London Bridge' after terror attack is filmed spitting in man's face during vile racist rant
> 
> ...


Shame he didn't die.


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## eatmorecheese (Jul 6, 2017)

Ranbay said:


> Millwall fan named 'Lion of London Bridge' spits at man during racist rant
> 
> Millwall fan hailed as 'Lion of London Bridge' after terror attack is filmed spitting in man's face during vile racist rant
> 
> ...


I can vouch for this guy being a prick. Lives opposite my father in law. More late night antisocial behaviour police call-outs than he can count. Leaves father in law alone, 'cos he's Millwall too, thank feck. His neighbours find it hilarious that he's being held up as some sort of paragon of British defiance


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## Mr.Bishie (Jul 6, 2017)

The twitter replies to the Mirror tweet are as utterly fucking depressing.


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## ffsear (Aug 17, 2017)

Similar incident unfolding in Barcelona now by the looks of it


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## ffsear (Aug 17, 2017)




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## Pickman's model (Aug 17, 2017)

ffsear said:


>



yeh there's a thread about it.


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## not-bono-ever (Aug 17, 2017)

.


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## A380 (Jun 3, 2020)

Three years today. 



Today marks the anniversary of the 2017 terrorist attack at London Bridge / Borough Market. 

Let us remember those who lost their lives:

Chrissy Archibald (30)
Sebastian Belanger (36)
Kirsty Boden (28)
Ignacio Echeverria Miralles De Imperial (39)
James McMullen (32)
Alexandre Pigeard (26)
Xavier Thomas (45)
Sara Zelenak (21)


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## Pickman's model (Jun 3, 2020)

How time flies


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## editor (Jun 3, 2020)

I can't even remember what happened to the pieces of shit responsible for this cowardly attack.


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## agricola (Jun 3, 2020)

editor said:


> I can't even remember what happened to the pieces of shit responsible for this cowardly attack.



After attacking various members of the public, nurses, cops and bar staff they ran at the first lot of armed officers who arrived on scene (from the Met and the City) and got shot dead.


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## A380 (Jun 4, 2020)

editor said:


> I can't even remember what happened to the pieces of shit responsible for this cowardly attack.



I do, but I deliberately don’t remember the names of any of the people who perpetrate these things. If I need to know them I look them up. It’s not much but it is something.


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## equationgirl (Jun 5, 2020)

A380 said:


> I do, but I deliberately don’t remember the names of any of the people who perpetrate these things. If I need to know them I look them up. It’s not much but it is something.


Same with murder victim s, the killer becomes notorious whilst the victims are forgotten. It's a meaningful thing to do.


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