# The City of London Corporation Protest 03-05 May 2011 - The Root of All Kinds of Evil



## Will2403 (Apr 14, 2011)

*The City of London Corporation Protest 03-06 May 2011 - The Root of All Kinds of Evil*

http://www.ukuncut.org.uk/actions/523
http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=100678056686389



*THE CITY OF LONDON CORPORATION PROTEST
Radix Omnium Malorum
The Root of All Kinds of Evil*

*Tuesday 03 - Friday 06 May 2011*



*The System Perpetuating The Exploitation & The Infliction of Poverty & Suffering on The People of the World is Headquartered on our Doorstep.

The People of the UK are complicit in these crimes by allowing the system to continue to operate in our land.

No longer can we allow this to continue...*

*NOT IN OUR NAME!*

---

*What makes Britain Great?*

People enjoying each other without causing harm to anyone else.

- This must be the crux of the protest.

We must reclaim the territory known as The City of London.

This event proposes the following...

We invite the people of the world to spend four days
Tuesday 03 May 2011
Wednesday 04 May 2011
Thursday 05 May 2011
Friday 06 May 2011

in the square mile, as long or as little as you like, from 0630 til 1730 each of those days.

We would like a big presence in the City throughout office hours for the week.

---

*We invite you to bring:*
guitars, flutes, saxaphones, steel drums and any other musical instrument you like...
footballs for keepie uppie competitions
sunloungers and inflatable chairs
bring your grannies and their knitting needles, people patching up clothes
people making and selling dreamcatchers and all other crafts and hobbies
juggling balls, poi, firebreathers etc.
street artists and performers
sound systems
megaphones
flags, banners, etc.
food, drink, mini bbq's, hot dog vending trolley etc 
+ anything else you can think of to create an atmosphere and that stays within they law 

We don't need money to be happy. We don't need material wealth, we just need each other and good spirits.

---

Show solidarity with the people of the world. We are all one people and we all want the same.

Reclaim our democracy, reclaim our rights, and have a laugh doing it =)

---








http://www.ukuncut.org.uk/actions/523
http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=100678056686389


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## stethoscope (Apr 14, 2011)

Who or which group(s) have actually called this protest?


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## Will2403 (Apr 14, 2011)

just me so far.

The link is to the facebook group i have created, it doesn't have any fans yet, so no one to invite  fail 

Add me on facebook where I have invited all my friends to the event. Got 18 attending and 761 awaiting, only been up about an hour 

www.facebook.com/will2403

*Q. WHAT IS THE AIM OF THIS PROTEST?
A. THE ABOLITION OF THE CITY OF LONDON CORPORATION*


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## Will2403 (Apr 14, 2011)

All kinds of feedback, ideas, wording changes etc etc very welcome!


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## kabbes (Apr 14, 2011)

If it is literally just you calling for it then I think you are being massively overoptimistic in aiming for 3-5 May.  You need to give it time to build a momentum.


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## Dillinger4 (Apr 14, 2011)

they are going to shit themselves when the jugglers get there


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## Will2403 (Apr 14, 2011)

kabbes said:


> If it is literally just you calling for it then I think you are being massively overoptimistic in aiming for 3-5 May.  You need to give it time to build a momentum.


 
i will be flying the flags and flyering people at the mayday gathering in london on sunday 01 and maybe in brighton on april 30th

not sure whats happening on monday 02 yet, but hope to do more promo work then.

all help welcome.


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## Will2403 (Apr 14, 2011)

Dillinger4 said:


> they are going to shit themselves when the jugglers get there


 
you can't be violent.

its about raising the profile of the issue...

vodafone, barclays, topshop have all been in the news.

the city of london, the puppetmaster, less so.


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## Will2403 (Apr 14, 2011)

i see it as the next step in ukuncut's efforts.

i have yet to put this proposal to them, will add it as an action on their website now...


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## Will2403 (Apr 14, 2011)

http://www.ukuncut.org.uk/actions/523


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## kabbes (Apr 14, 2011)

There's no way you're getting more than a few dozen in two weeks.


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## Riklet (Apr 14, 2011)

Dillinger4 said:


> they are going to shit themselves when the jugglers get there


 
To be fair I don't think carnival type biz is a bad protest tactic, it's been pretty successful in the past..... usually needs more than 19 people though!


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## Will2403 (Apr 14, 2011)

its impossible to know.  i expect to get about 1k attending on facebook. i will be happy with a few dozen actual people though. depends if ukuncut take it up as their flagship mayday protest or not.


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## gunneradt (Apr 14, 2011)

Dillinger4 said:


> they are going to shit themselves when the jugglers get there


 
No, we need lunchtime entertainment while we're quaffing champagne.  All we normally have is Big Issue sellers.


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## frogwoman (Apr 14, 2011)

if you're so fucking successful, why are you on here all the time gooner?


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## gunneradt (Apr 14, 2011)

frogwoman said:


> if you're so fucking successful, why are you on here all the time gooner?


 
ha ha who said I was successful?

I just work too much


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## Will2403 (Apr 14, 2011)

i forgot to mention in the spiel to also bring along food, drinks, mini bbq's, hot dog vending trolley etc.


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## Will2403 (Apr 14, 2011)

never been there before. it looks lovely 

hope the weather is nice, otherwise i'm calling the whole thing off


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## gunneradt (Apr 14, 2011)

Will2403 said:


> i forgot to mention in the spiel to also bring along food, drinks, mini bbq's, hot dog vending trolley etc.


 
price 'em right and you'll make a fortune


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## Will2403 (Apr 14, 2011)

how dare you! 

they can be exchanged for guitar / music lessons and keepie uppie skills training!


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## gunneradt (Apr 14, 2011)

Will2403 said:


> how dare you!
> 
> they can be exchanged for guitar / music lessons and keepie uppie skills training!


 
sod that - food and drink only required or we go to the pub.


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## Will2403 (Apr 14, 2011)

Should I bother with an official protest application?

http://www.cityoflondon.police.uk/CityPolice/Advice/BusinessAdvice/events.htm



> Organising a protest march or static demonstration
> 
> The City of London Police aim to improve dialogue with protest groups in advance and where possible, to gain a better understanding of the intent of the protesters and the nature of the protest activity. If consultation takes place the Police and Organiser(s) can agree how best to facilitate the protest and to ensure a proportionate policing response.
> 
> ...



http://www.cityoflondon.police.uk/NR/rdonlyres/0B4190E7-89B6-4184-AAF3-DFF0B02A4EDC/0/3175.pdf


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## manny-p (Apr 14, 2011)

Will2403 said:


> how dare you!
> 
> they can be exchanged for guitar / music lessons and keepie uppie skills training!


 
I will look out for you with your che flag.


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## ddraig (Apr 14, 2011)

how old are you will?

this will not work as others say and on so many levels

have you been to the city of london? the bits you are talking about? have you been to a protest there?
no way you will get people out for 4 days if even enough for one day at short notice as mentioned.
and if you are happy with a couple of dozen then how is that going to work and how much of an impact do you think it will make?
nice try mind


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## Will2403 (Apr 14, 2011)

dunno, if it raises some awareness and encourages more protests in the city then it'll be worthwhile.  i thought two weeks would be plenty of notice, especially as there will be activists in london on mayday.


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## Will2403 (Apr 14, 2011)

i'm 29, but a novice in terms of activism and protests


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## Will2403 (Apr 14, 2011)

allybaba said:


> I will look out for you with your che flag.



The Hyde Park rozzers liked it so much they have decided to keep it til May 22nd - robbing bastards


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## Will2403 (Apr 14, 2011)

ddraig said:


> how old are you will?
> 
> this will not work as others say and on so many levels
> 
> have you been to the city of london? the bits you are talking about? have you been to a protest there?


 
i've been to the city before, but not on a proper tour, never seen the BoE or Mansion House up close n personal like. 

i'll be there with my flags and music and maybe a megaphone - thinking of getting this one: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI....69146&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT#ht_2408wt_1095

50watts should do it ey? 

so i'll just be walking around the city checking out the sights and giving lots of evil stares to suited peoples  tourist anarchism - its the newest thing


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## Dillinger4 (Apr 14, 2011)

*shakeshead*


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## kenny g (Apr 14, 2011)

I will give it to you for going for it at least. Don't listen to the nay sayers.


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## Will2403 (Apr 14, 2011)

Dillinger4 said:


> *shakeshead*


 
please elaborate


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## kabbes (Apr 14, 2011)

Will2403 said:


> i've been to the city before, but not on a proper tour, never seen the BoE or Mansion House up close n personal like.





I worked every day in the City itself for a year, Will, and I've been working in and around it for about a decade.  And I have to tell you this: a square mile is quite a big area.  And hundreds of thousands go there every day.  A dozen more aren't even going to be noticed, no matter what they are doing.  Not even in front of the Bank of England.


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## Will2403 (Apr 14, 2011)

ok, well lets just hope its more than a dozen then 

what other groups/websites can i link the fb / ukuncut pages at? 

i should just use a scattergun approach and flood everywhere i can with the link.

can anyone get stephen fry to link it on twitter?


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## kabbes (Apr 14, 2011)

You should do all that AND you should set the date for at LEAST three months hence, if not six months.


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## killer b (Apr 14, 2011)

Will2403 said:


> can anyone get stephen fry to link it on twitter?


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## Will2403 (Apr 14, 2011)

ok, well this can be a dress rehearsal, 

what big economic dates are there in august/september time?


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## Dillinger4 (Apr 14, 2011)

killer b said:


>


 
fuck the system!


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## Will2403 (Apr 14, 2011)

killer b said:


>


 
serious question


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## kabbes (Apr 14, 2011)

Will2403 said:


> ok, well this can be a dress rehearsal,
> 
> what big economic dates are there in august/september time?


 
St. Swithin's Day is in July, if that's any good to you.


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## Dillinger4 (Apr 14, 2011)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Mayor%27s_Show


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## Will2403 (Apr 14, 2011)

wouldn't get away with a protest during that.


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## kabbes (Apr 14, 2011)




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## Dillinger4 (Apr 14, 2011)

Will2403 said:


> wouldn't get away with a protest during that.


 
maybe protesting isn't for you.


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## gunneradt (Apr 14, 2011)

Will2403 said:


> ok, well lets just hope its more than a dozen then
> 
> what other groups/websites can i link the fb / ukuncut pages at?
> 
> ...


 
the city boys will think you're the 'paid for' entertainment


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## Will2403 (Apr 14, 2011)

kabbes said:


> St. Swithin's Day is in July, if that's any good to you.


 
its not related to the issue, but there's a decent chance of good weather that week. its a maybe.


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## kabbes (Apr 14, 2011)

I only mention it because it's enshrined in an old City saying: "Sell in May, go away, don't come back 'til St. Swithin's Day"


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## Will2403 (Apr 14, 2011)

kabbes said:


> I only mention it because it's enshrined in an old City saying: "Sell in May, go away, don't come back 'til St. Swithin's Day"


 
ok, interesting 

do you not think the cops would come down hard on any protesting during the LMS though?


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## kabbes (Apr 14, 2011)

Will2403 said:


> do you not think the cops would come down hard on any protesting during the LMS though?


 
What kind of anarchist are you?


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## Will2403 (Apr 14, 2011)

gunneradt said:


> the city boys will think you're the 'paid for' entertainment


 
might get a fire estinguisher backpack and fill it with tomato juice to spray all over their nice expensive suits, wipe the smirks of their face and make a valid point at the same time


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## gunneradt (Apr 14, 2011)

Will2403 said:


> might get a fire estinguisher backpack and fill it with tomato juice to spray all over their nice expensive suits, wipe the smirks of their face and make a valid point at the same time


 
try that and you'll be at the dentist the next day I should think


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## kabbes (Apr 14, 2011)

Will2403 said:


> might get a fire estinguisher backpack and fill it with tomato juice to spray all over their nice expensive suits, wipe the smirks of their face and make a valid point at the same time


 
Be careful, the nasty police might get you.


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## Will2403 (Apr 14, 2011)

kabbes said:


> What kind of anarchist are you?


 
one that doesn't wanna get arrested and get banned from protesting in the key territory (possibly) in the whole world.

- ignore that tomato fire estinguisher comment


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## kabbes (Apr 14, 2011)

gunneradt said:


> try that and you'll be at the dentist the next day I should think


 
Yeah, tbf I think your average barrow-boy trader would eat Will for breakfast.


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## stethoscope (Apr 14, 2011)

Tbh, I'd give up now in order to save embarassment.


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## Will2403 (Apr 14, 2011)

tougher than i look. i can take a bit of grief. see the nekkid thread for examples


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## Will2403 (Apr 14, 2011)

stephj said:


> Tbh, I'd give up now in order to save embarassment.



not an option


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## Will2403 (Apr 14, 2011)

how many tweets is harrassment?  can u block people on twitter?


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## gunneradt (Apr 14, 2011)

ha ha

I think the mistake you're making Will is thinking that the City Boys are posh - that couldnt be further from the truth.


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## Will2403 (Apr 14, 2011)




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## Dillinger4 (Apr 15, 2011)

stephj said:


> Tbh, I'd give up now in order to save embarassment.


 
^


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## Dillinger4 (Apr 15, 2011)

Sometimes they just ignore you and nothing more.


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## Will2403 (Apr 15, 2011)

Bit late for that 

None of yous lot noticed that I had 
Tues 03 - Fri 05 May 
though didya??

Changed the relevant pics and thread title so no one notices 

Anyhoooo! It's gotta be worth a shot, it'll be like a learning experience!


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## kabbes (Apr 15, 2011)

Bless your little cotton socks, Will, you're a tryer.  Ineffectual and naive but a tryer.  Good luck to you, 'cos you're going to need it.


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## Santino (Apr 15, 2011)

gunneradt said:


> I think the mistake you're making Will is thinking that the City Boys are posh - that couldnt be further from the truth.


 
It could actually. A tiny bit further.


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## Will2403 (Apr 15, 2011)

> http://www.ukuncut.org.uk/actions/523
> http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=100678056686389


 
i'd welcome feedback and suggestions for that bottom line, just added bankers/lawyers for popular appeal.  gonna be getting this printed next week so i want it right 

*edit! - ooops, not that one, this one...


left that one up there cos it amuses me


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## Will2403 (Apr 15, 2011)

kabbes said:


> Bless your little cotton socks, Will, you're a tryer.  Ineffectual and naive but a tryer.  Good luck to you, 'cos you're going to need it.


 
liam gallaghers mum: god loves a tryer
liam gallagher (10): why? has he got a puncture?

everyone needs a bit of luck. 

with god's help, we will conquer this terrible affliction [/mark renton]


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## Will2403 (Apr 15, 2011)

how do i change the thread title?


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## kabbes (Apr 15, 2011)

Lawyers are in Holburn.  I don't think that's strictly in the City.  Holburn (street) is the border, IIRC.


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## kabbes (Apr 15, 2011)

Will2403 said:


> how do i change the thread title?


 
You don't.


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## Will2403 (Apr 15, 2011)

but it makes me look like a jackass though


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## kabbes (Apr 15, 2011)

Will2403 said:


> but it makes me look like a jackass though


 
Believe me, it's a drop in the ocean.


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## trabant (Apr 15, 2011)

kabbes said:


> Believe me, it's a drop in the ocean.


 
ouch


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## DownwardDog (Apr 15, 2011)

Will2403 said:


> ok, well this can be a dress rehearsal,
> 
> what big economic dates are there in august/september time?


 
Friday September 16th is triple witching.

Fuck the haterz, your efforts are no more or less pointless than all the rest of the protest bollocks.


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## Will2403 (Apr 15, 2011)

trabant said:


> ouch


 


kabbes said:


> Believe me, it's a drop in the ocean.


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## Paulie Tandoori (Apr 15, 2011)

i'd imagine at best your protest might end up like this....







...although even the cops can't be bothered with harassing fucking jugglers


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## Laney (Apr 15, 2011)

gunneradt said:


> ha ha
> 
> I think the mistake you're making Will is thinking that the City Boys are posh - that couldnt be further from the truth.


 
You don't work in an investment bank, clearly.


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## Will2403 (Apr 15, 2011)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> i'd imagine at best your protest might end up like this....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Do they use MC Hammer as a fashion consultant?


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## Will2403 (Apr 15, 2011)

plus that protest was always doomed to failure due to the lack of flags


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## BigTom (Apr 15, 2011)

Will2403 said:


> View attachment 14713



You can't tackle hegemony! hegemony is the set of ideas of the ruling/dominant class... you could tackle "capitalist hegemony" I guess. I'd suggest "to tackle poverty, greed, imperialism, bankers and capitalism" 
I'd also leave out the etc. it doesn't look right on a flyer.

Good luck with this but tbh I don't think it'll work, not enough time to build up, 4 days is silly and if you think that you'll get people along straight from hearing about it on the mayday demo 2 days before, you'll be in for a shock.
If you get a thousand people attending on facebook it'll not translate into even a hundred attending on one of the days, let alone all four.

You should have gone for a single day, and made sure that day had some kind of relevance imo.  It would have been better if this could have been organised for the start of the new tax year for instance.  I don't know if/what other dates have significance to the banking sector in the UK.

Good luck with it though, I won't be able to attend cos I'll be at work.

And yes, you can block people on twitter, and no you won't get stephen fry to retweet it. He didn't even rt stuff about mental health awareness week or the removal of dla/esa from bi-polar sufferers so he's not going to rt this..


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## kabbes (Apr 15, 2011)

Oh don't tell him to remove "etc."  That was one of the things that made me lol the most.  I was hoping to see that on an actual banner.


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## Will2403 (Apr 15, 2011)

oi!!!! you are sposed to be helping me here kabbes, not setting me up for a fall 

it's not a flyer

its a 3 foot by 5 foot flag on top of a 3 metre flag pole.

and it will be with 3 other red flags on 3 metre poles

and one green flag with solution slogans on a 5 metre pole.


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## Will2403 (Apr 15, 2011)

i'll need more arms at this rate, but i might try and hire some homeless people for the day


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## kabbes (Apr 15, 2011)

We want to break the capitalist hegemony!
And stop casino banks!
And see more democratic laws!
And, er, etc.  You know.  Stuff.


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## BigTom (Apr 15, 2011)

kabbes said:


> Oh don't tell him to remove "etc."  That was one of the things that made me lol the most.  I was hoping to see that on an actual banner.


 





			
				wills said:
			
		

> it's for a banner


(apols for the misquote I can't be bothered to try to multi-quote things)

In that case go for it, banners don't need strong, bold statements.. 

(are you happy now Kabbes?)


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## kabbes (Apr 15, 2011)

Yes, that's right.  Stick with the "etc".  It really makes your point for you.  You want... stuff!  And you want it eventually!


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## BigTom (Apr 15, 2011)

I can't find the one from the mayday demos  

Something like this, but with etc. on the end of it?


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## BigTom (Apr 15, 2011)

I should say, in a helpful manner, that I saw the city of london event on fb (linked via the occupy monaco group), before I came on here and my first thought on seeing it was who is Billy Bob, and is this actually serious?  What someone said further up the thread about who has called this, it really is important.


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## Will2403 (Apr 15, 2011)

BigTom said:


> I should say, in a helpful manner, that I saw the city of london event on fb (linked via the occupy monaco group), before I came on here and my first thought on seeing it was who is Billy Bob, and is this actually serious?  What someone said further up the thread about who has called this, it really is important.


 
Who cares who called it. I thought yous lot were anarchists?

UKUNCUT is supposed to be a organisation with no centralised structures of power.

That's the point, anyone can call an action and if the idea is sound then people will commit to it.

If you build it, they will come.

The idea is sound, planning not so much, but if we work hard over the next 15 days we will be ready.

100 people will be plenty to kick up a fuss and get some exposure.

The four day plan was because one day protests achieve fuck all imo. I want a consistent presence, four days is just a start. I want a standing army of any 100+ people in the city every working hour of every working day until our demands are met.

Our demands being all multimillionaires imprisioned for re-education and rehabilitation.


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## Will2403 (Apr 15, 2011)

With their assets stripped and redistributed obvs.


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## Will2403 (Apr 15, 2011)

I live in Thetford, norfolk. You score zero points for observation, clearly a person never to have mastered the krypton factor.

I set up a vodafone protest in bury st edmunds, but my giro didn't come thru and didn't make it. Some kid called Alex shut the shop down.

A week later I organised another one.

Lots of thetty people were gonna come but they didn't get out of bed in time.

Met a couple ppl there but they wanted to protest against topshop and I had mostly vodafone info so I stood outside Voda and they went to topshop and left about noon and I left about 1ish after getting cold and giving out 75% of my info.

The same mite happen here.  I've had good feedback on fb so far and some keen to put lots of work in to get this up and running.


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## Will2403 (Apr 15, 2011)

That black fit watch coppa who is supposed to be a hardcore br00te was at the bury protest with 4 or 5 other coppa's. I was peaceful and didn't get my noggin truncheoned


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## gunneradt (Apr 15, 2011)

Will2403 said:


> I live in Thetford, norfolk. You score zero points for observation, clearly a person never to have mastered the krypton factor.
> 
> I set up a vodafone protest in bury st edmunds, but my giro didn't come thru and didn't make it. Some kid called Alex shut the shop down.
> 
> ...


 
no-one's even going to notice a few bumpkins in the City

pick up some Big Issues

you might sell some


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## Will2403 (Apr 15, 2011)

BigTom said:


> I can't find the one from the mayday demos
> 
> Something like this, but with etc. on the end of it?



On my fond and can't read it.

Looks like it was scrawled by a toddler with ADHD.

Defo putting etc on the flag now


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## Dillinger4 (Apr 15, 2011)

it says "overthrow capitalism and replace it with something nicer"


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## Will2403 (Apr 15, 2011)

Feeble


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## Will2403 (Apr 15, 2011)

gunneradt said:


> no-one's even going to notice a few bumpkins in the City
> 
> pick up some Big Issues
> 
> you might sell some


 


Dude, I suggest you get a new job tending rabbits or at a zoo or gardening or summut that gets u back in touch with nature.

The capitalist ideology appears to have enslaved your tiny mind so every thought reverts to one of accumulating wealth 

There is still time for you to save yourself my child


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## BigTom (Apr 15, 2011)

Will2403 said:


> Who cares who called it. I thought yous lot were anarchists?


 
Who calls it matters because it shows whether it is serious or a joke, it tells me whether there are likely to be many people there or not, whether it'll actually work or not (although that bit is not so much of an issue with your plan, it'll work if enough people turn up and the cops don't beat the crap out of everyone)

Do you think that the oxford street uk uncut action would have got the thousands of people down that it did if it was called by an individual with a small track record of events?
That's why it matters.  Not whether the idea is sound or not, but because these organisations have some credibility built through taking actions.  This signifies that the actions they take actually happen, and whether those actions tend to be successful or not.

And you're right, my powers of observation are poor.  I don't expect people to actually have put their locations down, it's usually a joke of some kind there, I don't even look at it any more 

Alright, so you've got some people near you who are interested in action.. build something with them, create a strong group and go from there.

1 day of reasonable numbers will make more of a difference than 4 days of one or two people imo.

That banner says "Overthrow capitalism and replace it with something nicer" - it's one of Cyderdelic's slogans (and just to be clear the Cyderdelics are a spoof group)


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## Will2403 (Apr 15, 2011)

BigTom said:


> You can't tackle hegemony! hegemony is the set of ideas of the ruling/dominant class... you could tackle "capitalist hegemony" I guess. I'd suggest "to tackle poverty, greed, imperialism, bankers and capitalism"
> I'd also leave out the etc. it doesn't look right on a flyer


 
I don't know what label is most appropriate, but I think I identify most with a (very) long term goal of syndicalist anarchy via means of revolution with a detour to co-operative socialism along the way.

I don't believe in ruling classes so attacking hegemony in all it's forms is a valid target.

Does that make sense?


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## Dillinger4 (Apr 15, 2011)

Will2403 said:


> I don't know what label is most appropriate, but I think I identify most with a (very) long term goal of syndicalist anarchy via means of revolution with a detour to co-operative socialism along the way.
> 
> I don't believe in ruling classes so attacking hegemony in all it's forms is a valid target.
> 
> Does that make sense?


 
Stick to the juggling.


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## BigTom (Apr 15, 2011)

Will2403 said:


> I don't know what label is most appropriate, but I think I identify most with a (very) long term goal of syndicalist anarchy via means of revolution with a detour to co-operative socialism along the way.
> 
> I don't believe in ruling classes so attacking hegemony in all it's forms is a valid target.
> 
> Does that make sense?



Yes but also no - there's still a hegemony that you want, the hegemony of anarcho-syndicalism (or something similar).  There will always be a ruling hegemony, even if there are no rulers.. you cannot have a society without a hegemony.  I realise that it's kind of murky when describing hegemony as the set of ideas of the ruling/dominant class but in a post-capitalist world of any kind of socialist/anarchist persausion there is still a ruling class, that is the working class, they just don't have another set of people to rule over, they rule themselves..
I think.  There's definitely still hegemony in a socialist world.. it's the set of ideas that describe how the social world runs/exists..


----------



## gunneradt (Apr 15, 2011)

Will2403 said:


> Dude, I suggest you get a new job tending rabbits or at a zoo or gardening or summut that gets u back in touch with nature.
> 
> The capitalist ideology appears to have enslaved your tiny mind so every thought reverts to one of accumulating wealth
> 
> There is still time for you to save yourself my child



I also think you should stick to juggling. 

Did you know you have to get on a big, big train to come to London to see the Queen?


----------



## Will2403 (Apr 15, 2011)

gunneradt said:


> I also think you should stick to juggling.
> 
> Did you know you have to get on a big, big train to come to London to see the Queen?


 
Errrr...? No. The trains r just regular trains. Smaller than the big big steam trains u went on during your youth


----------



## Will2403 (Apr 15, 2011)

BigTom said:


> There will always be a ruling hegemony, even if there are no rulers..
> 
> 
> in a post-capitalist world of any kind of socialist/anarchist persausion there is still a ruling class, that is the working class, they just don't have another set of people to rule over, they rule themselves..


 
I think you should take up juggling


----------



## Will2403 (Apr 15, 2011)

gunneradt said:


> ha ha
> 
> I think the mistake you're making Will is thinking that the City Boys are posh - that couldnt be further from the truth.



I think the mistake you're making goober  is thinking that the protest is about individuals.

It's about the masses claiming their rights, it's about momentum and it's about fuckin da systim yo!


----------



## Will2403 (Apr 15, 2011)

Just out of interest (and for da lolz) who of you thinks that the abolition of the city of london corporation is unrealistic?


----------



## free spirit (Apr 15, 2011)

Will2403 said:


> Just out of interest (and for da lolz) who of you thinks that the abolition of the city of london corporation is unrealistic?


 by you by the 5th May? Yeah I think you're probably aiming a little high for a first protest tbh.


----------



## Dillinger4 (Apr 15, 2011)

> "If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don't have to worry about the answers."



Thomas Pynchon


----------



## Will2403 (Apr 15, 2011)

free spirit said:


> by you by the 5th May? Yeah I think you're probably aiming a little high for a first protest tbh.


 
By the 6th may actually! How foolish of you to get that wrong!

Would you like to reconsider your response?

No?

Ok, well... I didn't say I'd have them all locked up and gassed by the Friday. Erm.... How bout in time for Christmas?


----------



## Will2403 (Apr 15, 2011)

Dillinger4 said:


> Thomas Pynchon


 
I like the quote, not sure of the relevance. I'm dumb


----------



## lopsidedbunny (Apr 15, 2011)

why not may day?


----------



## Will2403 (Apr 15, 2011)

It's a Sunday. The city will be pretty much empty.

I think it would be better to get in the faces of satan's footsoldiers. 

A bunch of people not annoying anyone or causing a ruckus ain't gonna make the 9 o'clock news!


----------



## free spirit (Apr 16, 2011)

Will2403 said:


> Who cares who called it. I thought yous lot were anarchists?
> 
> UKUNCUT is supposed to be a organisation with no centralised structures of power.
> 
> ...


this is how you organise a big protest in the City.














well actually, in the city and also in many other cities all around the world at the same time, but I digress.

this thread is a great example of how not to do it.

not that RTS was perfect, or was actually successful in making much of a dent in the neoliberalists global project (although it arguably played it's part in the GATT talks grinding to a halt), but at least it was real and involved a lot of people putting their balls (and other bits) on the line and walking the walk not just posting up a couple of facebook pages and expecting the revolution just to happen all by itself in 2 weeks time.

if you're serious about this, then take down your facebook page as you're taking the piss with it. Pull a crew together and start doing some actions locally that you can actually make successful, then network with other groups around the country to build towards all pulling together to actually pull of a big national level protest. What you're doing now is just pissing in the wind at best, or all mouth no trousers at worst.

I can say this btw because I've been there and done it, as have many others on here who you'd do well to learn from rather than pissing off - that's if you actually aren't all talk.


----------



## free spirit (Apr 16, 2011)

lol - I just picked a random google photo, and just realised it's actually the first photo I've seen of that day that shows me (or my leg) on my rather high up dancing platform. I nearly killed myself getting down from there before some very kind person (who IIRC later turned out to be an urb) materialised with a ladder.


----------



## Will2403 (Apr 16, 2011)

How long did that take to build up?

That particular rts protest, from the founding of the organisation


----------



## Will2403 (Apr 16, 2011)

You're probably right and I have spectacularly misjudged the difficulty in rounding people up during regular 9-5 working hours - most UKUNCUT protests are during the weekend for example.

I just hoped that the protest networks that you mentioned would see this on fb or UKUNCUT and think it is a good idea and worth being a part of and therefore encourage their members to participate.

I got a bit frustrated at the targets of the action being merely the cuts and the Tories and high street retailers.  We could get rid of the Tories and not much would change, we could bring in a few harsher business laws and they might last a governmental term or two. Give it 5-10 years and we're back exactly where we started if not worse.

The Tories are possibly key to getting rid of the city of London corporation forever hopefully. With labour or a lab coalition then apathy will soar and the chance will be lost, til we get the Tories back for another spin on the merry go round.


----------



## free spirit (Apr 16, 2011)

Will2403 said:


> How long did that take to build up?


directly, probably most of the previous year to some extent, with a hell of a lot of people involved in London, as well as a network of activist groups from all over the country. It built out of years of prominent activism & protests though by all the groups involved, as well as international networking, with the global protest actually called by People's Global Action at their forum in South America, and supported by groups worldwide including RTS who provided the framework and inspiration not just for this protest, but also for many of them around the western / northern part of the globe.

The trial run was the year before in Birmingham for the G7 meeting, as well as many other locations around the world for the RTS inspired global street party. 

J18 in turn was the backdrop to all the big summit protests that followed, including in the UK 6 years later after RTS had basically been dormant for several years, the DISSENT network which saw groups all over the UK spending upto 18 months building towards getting the infrastructure in place to get 5000 or so committed activists from across Europe (and beyond) to get to Gleneagles to protest (aka attempt to shut down) the G8 meeting there. This infrastructure involved a full campsite in Stirling with full onsite medical facilities, legal team, transport team involving something like 10 minibuses, indymedia tent with satellite internet connection, media team, catering etc all powered by renewable energy, and 2 convergence centres in glasgow and edinburgh. We very nearly managed to shut down the opening day of the summit despite the 12,000 police on duty across Scotland, with a dozens of small affinity groups camping out in the wilds then blockading the roads around gleneagles, and several bigger blocks setting off en masse at 2am to take the A9.

With well over 500 nicked and taken to police stations all over scotland, and the entire camp then kettled for approaching a week, this level of organisation was needed otherwise those nicked would have been left stranded miles from the site, with no legal help, and those in the camp would have also been fucked rather than just a bit frustrated... events in London on July 7th unfortunately conspired to relegate the protests to a minor footnote in history.

So, the question is, are you serious or just pissing about? 

and tbh, the only way you can answer that question is to actually go and prove yourself with your actions, and I'm talking targeted manageable stuff that you and a small group can pull off, not trying to storm the city of london in 2 weeks. From this you will gain some credibility, with which to approach other groups (or even others within the UK uncut network) with ideas for bigger stuff done on a collaborative basis, then maybe you'd stand a chance of being able to jointly call a bigger protest and actually be taken seriously enough for people to get off their backsides, put time and effort into making the thing happen, and then risk their liberty on the day. 

This btw is pretty much the UK Uncut model - small but well thought out actions by one small group of activists sparks off an entire network of activists, media coverage etc and who knows where it could end up. The last thing I'd think UK Uncut need right now though would be someone without gaining any collective consent to their actions simply announcing a 4 day mass protest linked to them just at the time when they're in the middle of dealing with having basically their entire active base nicked and charged. I've no involvement in UK Uncut myself, so may be wrong, but it's generally considered seriously bad form (because it's likely to damage that groups reputation, and potentially put them at risk of police actions) to link a group to a national level action without gaining the consent of that groups members / activists


----------



## free spirit (Apr 16, 2011)

alternatively of course you could try to find an existing group to join locally that's active and do some stuff with them. It may not seem like it can affect anything, but one small group doing positive imaginative stuff in one place can inspire others elsewhere, and/or form a part of a nationwide network of activities to gain greater coverage for the groups activities and message - UK Uncut again.

This is probably easier in this age of social media, twitter etc. but don't forget to let schnews and indymedia help spread the word about your actions to the activist community who've not caught up with or deliberately don't use twitter, facebook etc.


eta - I'm pretty much retired from this stuff now btw, frying some different fish instead.


----------



## Will2403 (Apr 16, 2011)

free spirit said:


> alternatively of course you could try to find an existing group to join locally that's active and do some stuff with them. It may not seem like it can affect anything, but one small group doing positive imaginative stuff in one place can inspire others elsewhere, and/or form a part of a nationwide network of activities to gain greater coverage for the groups activities and message - UK Uncut again.
> 
> This is probably easier in this age of social media, twitter etc. but don't forget to let schnews and indymedia help spread the word about your actions to the activist community who've not caught up with or deliberately don't use twitter, facebook etc.
> 
> ...


 
You got a job in a chippie?

Schnews / Indymedia, thanks, i could do with listing 20-50 organisations to contact and start crossing them off. Not been home much yesterday and won't be back til late today. I'll try get it done sat nite / sunday.

Marketing is the key bit imo.


----------



## BigTom (Apr 16, 2011)

Listen to FS - you know on that other thread I said there are people here who have been there, done that, well FS is one of those people.

Indirectly, RtS came out of the road protest movement that I think started with the Twyford Downs camp in 1991 or 1992.. J18 was 1999 iirc.  Between Twyford Downs and J18 you had lots of protests both RtS and not, like the M11 link road, the M41 protest, Newbury Bypass, Manchester Airport and plenty of localised actions, the global day of action for the G7 (I thought it was G8 actually) summit in Birmingham (which was the first I attended) the year before.. [please note I do not claim to be any kind of authority about a movement I was only vaguely involved with later on, and might well be mistaken about some of these things]

With the internet things can move more quickly as word can spread more quickly but we are not talking about compressing 7 or 8 years of building through activity into 12 months (or less really, I wouldn't say the anti-cuts stuff got going as soon as the condems got into power, the first big protest I can think of was the tory party conference one in October, followed by UKUncut and the student protests around oct/nov)



Will2403 said:


> Marketing is the key bit imo.



No. The key bit is having networks in place, building those networks, making them strong.  Lots of relatively small groups coming together for a single big action - planned for months (I do think the internet/social networking makes it easier to do big actions more quickly than was the case in the RtS days, but also I should say I was only invovled with RtS as a participant, and even then without any real network around me, I just turned up on my own or with a friend or two to the bigger events).
This is not marketing, except in the loosest sense of the word.
If you think that some good flyers/fb page etc. are going to get thousands of people into the city of london, with the chance of getting nicked or the shit kicked out of you by city of london/met police/tsg then you are mistaken imo.

I would suggest that you don't contact organisations with the thought of getting them on board to your idea.  contact organisations and get involved with the things they are doing, meet and get to know the people involved and do stuff with them.  Then start floating ideas with them.  I'm not sure from your posts whether this is the point you are already at.

And fwiw, no I don't think the city of london will be brought down until the capitalist system is, and I don't think that we are at a revolutionary point right now.. a point of flux, change yes, a chance to move away from the neo-liberal model of capitalism certainly, and perhaps a chance to build a stronger revolutionary movement, but the collapse of capitalism? no, or at least not yet. Perhaps a year or two down the line I might feel different, but right now, no chance.  There's a huge derailment waiting to happen here though so we might not want to get into that conversation if you want to keep talking about this event/building these kinds of things.


----------



## Plumdaff (Apr 16, 2011)

I think, Will, that you really need to read and hear properly what BT and FS are telling you. You won't pull this off, and you should cancel. No matter how well-intentioned and committed you are, you will not be able to organise an event of this nature because no single person can. Events like this take months, even years of disparate groups committing and planning them. You seem vague, naive and disorganised and while many in the movement are prepared to face oppressive police and get arrested for their beliefs, they are not going to put themselves on the line for something as unplanned and nonsensical as this. And you should call this off officially, everywhere because if a few people turn up to preferably be ignored by the police you are at least responsible for their wasted time, but it could be much worse. You haven't even been to the City, haven't recce-ed the area, have no plans for crash spaces/legal observers etc. etc.

I have been involved in a few demos and occupations and they take lots of people and groups lots of time to organise. Please take the advice of others on this thread and get involved with local groups and organisations - not to try to make them get involved in your demo - it is too late, you've made it too large and disparate - but to get involved with like-minded people, learn about planning actions and to channel your considerable energies into something more likely to bear positive fruit.


----------



## Will2403 (Apr 16, 2011)

Ugh! You lot are such killjoys! 

And you're doing the feds' job for them by quietening dissent 

Nah, jus joshin. You all make good points and I'm sorry if I've been a bit too light hearted in my replies. I'm using my phone so it's more hassle to make full retorts.

I'll reply tomoro.

I am considering cancelling it, but I think I will try and give it one big push over the next seven days, then if it doesn't take off in a big way then I'll cancel it with 7 days notice. Do I have enough days for that? 

The plan seems to me quite simple and doesn't need to be massive, why can't it just be the start of something, the acorn.

All it requires is people. And there's lots of people in London, lots of unemployed people, homeless people, tourists and people settled there from all over the world. It's the best place in the world for this protest. The multicultural melting pot.

I believe in this. At no point with this did I for a second do it as a joke or felt like I would not actually go. I will be in London all that week with my silly flags even if it's just me and my iPod. 

I do sort of understand that a badly organised protest can actually harm the movement and momentum. It's the last thing I want. But the other last thing I want is to not do something, especially if that thing is one I think is 100% worthwhile and 100% a good fundamental idea.


----------



## Dillinger4 (Apr 16, 2011)

sigh


----------



## Will2403 (Apr 16, 2011)

Dillinger4 said:


> sigh


 
Is the editor charging u per character to post on this thread?


----------



## Dillinger4 (Apr 16, 2011)

Will2403 said:


> Is the editor charging u per character to post on this thread?


 
yeh


----------



## gunneradt (Apr 16, 2011)

Will2403 said:


> Just out of interest (and for da lolz) who of you thinks that the abolition of the city of london corporation is unrealistic?


 
it's completely unrealistic for just about every reason you could care to mention.


----------



## Dillinger4 (Apr 16, 2011)

be realistic; demand the impossible


----------



## Will2403 (Apr 16, 2011)

gunneradt said:


> it's completely unrealistic for just about every reason you could care to mention.


 
Nicolas Shaxson, dr Maurice glasman and Richard j Murphy don't seem to think so.


----------



## Will2403 (Apr 16, 2011)

Exhibit a & b

From treasure islands


----------



## Dillinger4 (Apr 16, 2011)

Will2403 said:


> Nicolas Shaxson, dr Maurice glasman and Richard j Murphy don't seem to think so.


 
I don't think they see it as a realistic possibility, at least in the short to medium term, or even in the long term. However, they do see it as something that is essential to any kind of realistic reform. 

Their problem is that what they want is merely a nicer kind of capitalism.


----------



## Will2403 (Apr 16, 2011)

Are you guys forming a nice orderly queue to have a chow down on my salty ball sack?


----------



## Will2403 (Apr 16, 2011)

Dillinger4 said:


> Their problem is that what they want is merely a nicer kind of capitalism.



I'd settle for that in the short term


----------



## Dillinger4 (Apr 16, 2011)

Will2403 said:


> I'd settle for that in the short term


 
It doesn't exist. It cant exist.


----------



## Dillinger4 (Apr 16, 2011)

oh, and you are doing a pretty good job of chowing down on your own salty ball sack. I don't think you need anybody else.


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## Will2403 (Apr 16, 2011)

Dillinger4 said:


> It doesn't exist. It cant exist.


 
It can actually. With strong regulations and a democratic government.


----------



## BigTom (Apr 16, 2011)

Will2403 said:


> The plan seems to me quite simple and doesn't need to be massive, why can't it just be the start of something, the acorn.



My suggestion to you would be to go and join the Trafalgar Square occupation each weekend, and take it from there.  It's pretty small at the moment but happening each saturday.  Be there each week and build networks with other people there, and then if/when it grows you can talk about moving it to the city of london.
At least by being there you will be meeting and talking with other people who are definitely up for occupying somewhere for a period of time.
[disclaimer: although I know it happened on the 3rd/4th april, I don't know what went on last week, or if there will actually be anyone there this week]

Or get involved with occupy monaco - which is such a lunatic plan that it might just be worth doing, even though there is no possible tactical reason for doing so.

Yes, the city of london is a good target but you need to build up TO it, not start there and build from it.


----------



## Will2403 (Apr 16, 2011)

Occupy monaco 

Will2403 - it's difficult enough rounding up people for actions in your own town, how do u expect to get people to travel and afford accommodation in Monaco?

Occupy Monaco admin: I'm fed up of protests in cold weather.

Then Jesus wept.


----------



## Will2403 (Apr 16, 2011)

Occupy traf sq is pointless, why do u think the cops couldn't care less about them. They have probably marked them down as clueless numpties.

Might go down there anyway next weekend tho.

Anything being planned for Monday 02 may?


----------



## Will2403 (Apr 16, 2011)

I got some contacts from the Hyde park camp, learnt a bit about the rule of law and freemen on the land arguments. They have all signed up and are enthusiastic


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 16, 2011)

Will2403 said:


> freemen



Well that's a good start.


----------



## Will2403 (Apr 16, 2011)

...


----------



## Will2403 (Apr 16, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Well that's a good start.


 
Seriously? I don't know much about it.


----------



## Will2403 (Apr 16, 2011)

This thread is severely lacking in tunes...


----------



## Will2403 (Apr 16, 2011)

This thread is severely lacking in tunes...


----------



## Will2403 (Apr 16, 2011)

Porque sino entonces te mando por el carajo cabron gusano hijo de puta, seramos libre pronto, viva la revolucion, VIVA LA REVOLUCION!

Immortal Technique - 2001 - The Poverty of Philosophy



> Most of my Latino and black people who are struggling to get food, clothes and shelter in the hood are so concerned with that, that philosophising about freedom and socialist democracy is usually unfortunately beyond their rationale. They don't realize that America can't exist without separating them from their identity, because if we had some sense of who we really are, there's no way in hell we'd allow this country to push it's genocidal consensus on our homelands. This ignorance exists, but it can be destroyed.
> 
> Niggas talk about change and working within the system to achieve that. The problem with always being a conformist is that when you try to change the system from within, it's not you who changes the system; it's the system that will eventually change you. There is usually nothing wrong with compromise in a situation, but compromising yourself in a situation is another story completely, and I have seen this happen long enough in the few years that I've been alive to know that it's a serious problem. Latino America is a huge colony of countries whose presidents are cowards in the face of economic imperialism. You see, third world countries are rich places, abundant in resources, and many of these countries have the capacity to feed their starving people and the children we always see digging for food in trash on commercials. But plutocracies, in other words a government run by the rich such as this one and traditionally oppressive European states, force the third world into buying overpriced, unnecessary goods while exporting huge portions of their natural resources.
> 
> ...


----------



## BigTom (Apr 16, 2011)

Will2403 said:


> Seriously? I don't know much about it.


 
No, he's not serious. FOTL are loons, don't believe them, have a look round here for some of the fotl threads and you'll come to understand that the magna carta and common law have no force in modern british justice system, and that no "freeman" has yet actually got off court.
plus most of them are just looking for a way to dodge paying council tax.

re: trafalgar square, it's a starting point - one that already exists and has some support.  If you're going to brand people clueless numpties before you even talk to them, then you'd probably be best not going down there.  the two people I know who have taken part in it are far from clueless numpties... personally I don't think tr. sq. is the right place, it was designed for crowd containment for a start, but after the police brutality there on march 26th, there is a reason why, and a network built through months of organising through existing groups for the planned occupaton of it overnight on the 26th, which has carried over for now.  If it grows large enough, it'll be easy to move it someplace else, hence my suggestion that you get involved with that - but don't go rushing in saying "we shouldn't be here, we should be in the city of london" 'cos you'll just piss people off, trying to hijack the things they've been working on and doing.

you've gone into occupy monaco in totally the wrong way as well.. here's a group seeking to organise something and you're trying to get them to do something else, if you can't see why that's wrong then I don't really know how to explain it to you.
I'm not saying that occupy monaco is a particularly good idea, and it's got stupid hurdles to climb (not least the potential expense of getting there that you mention), but what it has is a group of committed activists working to make it happen, with a timescale of 4 months (plus there's been at least 3 or 4 months talking about it already).  I'm not convinced it'll work and tbh if it doesn't get other european anti-austerity movements coming, then I doubt it'll happen at all.

Since I'm banned from central london on may 2nd, I've no idea what might be going on on that day.


----------



## Will2403 (Apr 16, 2011)

BigTom said:


> No, he's not serious. FOTL are loons, don't believe them, have a look round here for some of the fotl threads and you'll come to understand that the magna carta and common law have no force in modern british justice system, and that no "freeman" has yet actually got off court.
> plus most of them are just looking for a way to dodge paying council tax.


 
Thanks 
This was my predominant suspicion.  But I know people, made acquaintances with activists who believe strongly in this idea.  So I don't want to slag it/them off, and obviously don't know enough about it to debate with them.


----------



## Will2403 (Apr 16, 2011)

BigTom said:


> re: trafalgar square, it's a starting point - one that already exists and has some support.  If you're going to brand people clueless numpties before you even talk to them, then you'd probably be best not going down there.  the two people I know who have taken part in it are far from clueless numpties... personally I don't think tr. sq. is the right place, *it was designed for crowd containment for a start,* but after the police brutality there on march 26th, there is a reason why, and a network built through months of organising through existing groups for the planned occupaton of it overnight on the 26th, which has carried over for now.  If it grows large enough, it'll be easy to move it someplace else, hence my suggestion that you get involved with that - but don't go rushing in saying "we shouldn't be here, we should be in the city of london" 'cos you'll just piss people off, trying to hijack the things they've been working on and doing.


 
fair points regarding my dismissal criticisms. i have read this *bold* comment before on this forum discussing the issue and based my opinion largely on that. i would still be camping in hyde park had it not been shut down.


----------



## Will2403 (Apr 16, 2011)

BigTom said:


> you've gone into occupy monaco in totally the wrong way as well.. here's a group seeking to organise something and you're trying to get them to do something else, if you can't see why that's wrong then I don't really know how to explain it to you.
> I'm not saying that occupy monaco is a particularly good idea, and it's got stupid hurdles to climb (not least the potential expense of getting there that you mention), but what it has is a group of committed activists working to make it happen, with a timescale of 4 months (plus there's been at least 3 or 4 months talking about it already).  I'm not convinced it'll work and tbh if it doesn't get other european anti-austerity movements coming, then I doubt it'll happen at all.
> 
> Since I'm banned from central london on may 2nd, I've no idea what might be going on on that day.


 
being banned is why i'm all about annoyingly peaceful and silly actions (juggling) which police cannot prevent but which will annoy them due to their impotence, i'd like them to cite public order offences against jugglers.

i don't think i was particularly scathing in my attack against occupy monaco, but i take your point regarding telling them what they should be doing, it was a suggestion rather than an order though.


----------



## ddraig (Apr 16, 2011)

well they could move you under suspicion of busking, simple


----------



## Plumdaff (Apr 16, 2011)

Will2403 said:


> being banned is why i'm all about annoyingly peaceful and silly actions (juggling) which police cannot prevent but which will annoy them due to their impotence, i'd like them to cite public order offences against jugglers.


 
There were a lot of "peaceful and silly" activities going on at the Climate Camp on Bishopsgate (a part of the City they intended to occupy for a mere 24 hours) - albeit with a serious political point, and undertaken by far more experienced activists than yourself - yet lots of people got nicked/beaten up.


----------



## Will2403 (Apr 16, 2011)

UKUNCUT have deleted the action from their list 



> ukuncut@gmail.com
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Could you explain why the proposed action has been deleted from your list?


----------



## Will2403 (Apr 16, 2011)

ddraig said:


> well they could move you under suspicion of busking, simple


 
a label on juggler's clothing which reads 'not a busker - free show'


----------



## Will2403 (Apr 16, 2011)

would that work for any would-be lapdancer activists?


----------



## Will2403 (Apr 16, 2011)

lagtbd said:


> There were a lot of "peaceful and silly" activities going on at the Climate Camp on Bishopsgate (a part of the City they intended to occupy for a mere 24 hours) - albeit with a serious political point, and undertaken by far more experienced activists than yourself - yet lots of people got nicked/beaten up.


 
interesting. do you have some links please?


----------



## Will2403 (Apr 16, 2011)

Will2403 said:


> Should I bother with an official protest application?
> 
> http://www.cityoflondon.police.uk/CityPolice/Advice/BusinessAdvice/events.htm
> 
> ...


 
What are the chances of this protest application being accepted.  What happens if it is not?  What grounds can they use to prohibit it?


----------



## Will2403 (Apr 16, 2011)

Also with a successful official application, I imagine more tolerance will be granted.


----------



## BigTom (Apr 16, 2011)

Will2403 said:


> being banned is why i'm all about annoyingly peaceful and silly actions (juggling) which police cannot prevent but which will annoy them due to their impotence, i'd like them to cite public order offences against jugglers.



meh, the f&m sit down was totally peaceful.  All the police need to do is to place a s14 (or is it s16? dispersal order anyway) on the area and then you either leave or get arrested.  Btw, make sure you don't swear anywhere near a police officer cos that's a public order offence.. the police are far from impotent.. and can always just arrest you on trumped up charges anyway, keep you overnight then release you without charge (of course you could then sue for wrongful arrest but they don't really care, they'll do that if they think it's worth getting you off the street)

and what lagtbd said as well

I suspect UK Uncut took the event down because they thought it was a troll and not a serious event.  The big mistake you've made is calling for a 4 day occupation, not a one day event.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Apr 16, 2011)

The more I read, the more you sound like a total looney tbf


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Apr 16, 2011)

Will no's not Tom obv


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## Will2403 (Apr 16, 2011)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> The more I read, the more you sound like a total looney tbf


 
please elaborate


----------



## Will2403 (Apr 16, 2011)




----------



## Will2403 (Apr 16, 2011)

> you cannot change the past but you can make the future, and anyone who tells you different is a fucking lethargic devil.
> 
> Porque sino entonces te mando por el carajo cabron gusano hijo de puta, seramos libre pronto, viva la revolucion, viva la revolucion!



immortal technique


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## butchersapron (Apr 16, 2011)

Shut up bob you boring self-obsessed cunt


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## Will2403 (Apr 16, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Shut up bob you boring self-obsessed cunt


 
that's pretty brutal. but i was going to post this anyway...

ps. dunno if it's my mentality / not being able to see things from your perspectives but i totally disagree with all the cheap insults and attacks, except those which i have replied to, some of the really long posts from earlier i haven't read properly yet. if anything it all makes me more determined, i'm quite stubborn and tend to think i'm always right.


----------



## Will2403 (Apr 16, 2011)

thats a bit self pitying in a way i suppose. lol 

try this..


----------



## Plumdaff (Apr 16, 2011)

Will2403 said:


> Also with a successful official application, I imagine more tolerance will be granted.


 
Climate Camp had an official agreement with the police for a 24 hour camp at Bishopsgate. It meant nothing, and you won't get an official agreement anyway for your protest - I imagine they'll take the opinion of some of the more uncharitable posters on here, albeit for different reasons. UKUncut have taken your event down, doesn't that and the many constructive criticisms and suggestions you have recieved from experienced protestors on this thread started to sink in yet? I know this sounds harsh, but protest isn't about you and your ego and brilliant ideas. It's practical hard work. I'm not on a computer that I can easier link on, but google or youtube "Climate Camp Bishopsgate" (or the news from the past few days about the High Court decisions about kettling). I'd suggest that the fact you are ignorant about any of the recent history of protest in the Square Mile is but one demonstration of your unfitness to mount any kind of serious protest along the lines you suggest.

Anyway, you don't seem to be paying any attention to the reasonable suggestions in this thread so I'll probably bow out, but seriously, your attentions, your ego, and possibly your person might be more intact in the long-run if you read carefully what has been written here and involve yourselves in some of the actions and groups suggested.


----------



## Will2403 (Apr 17, 2011)

lagtbd said:


> Climate Camp had an official agreement with the police for a 24 hour camp at Bishopsgate. It meant nothing, and you won't get an official agreement anyway for your protest - I imagine they'll take the opinion of some of the more uncharitable posters on here, albeit for different reasons.



I'll look into that action first thing tomoro.
What do you suspect might be the police's reasons for refusal might be?



lagtbd said:


> UKUncut have taken your event down, doesn't that and the many constructive criticisms and suggestions you have recieved from experienced protestors on this thread started to sink in yet? I know this sounds harsh, but protest isn't about you and your ego and brilliant ideas. It's practical hard work.



Yep, them taking it down knocked me and I'm looking forward to their email reply.  The criticisms have definitely started to sink in, yes.  

The hard work I'm not afraid of.  I'm unemployed at the moment, so I have all my time to devote to this.  This thread really has been a massive learning experience and I'm grateful to everyone who has contributed to it.

I didn't want to say, this is an idea for an action on 03 May, and then get a slow trickle of feedback, I did have a vague idea that the time was short, however, nowhere near the kind of idea you guys have now given me.  I wanted to be bold and say this is happening, get on board and lets make this amazing and successful.

The worst thing is that my ego has become an issue here.  I posted it up here as much for feedback, help, suggestions etc, as hoping that people would attend.  

I would have been delighted if someone had taken the reins and said, 'you are going to need to put a massive amount of work in to get this prepared in time, and even then it might be a complete failure. 

you are going to need to get lots of others putting in lots of hours to get this prepared, and this, this and this is what you need to do, now go on and get on with it and report back when you have for further instructions. 

basically a project manager, which i guess was my role seeing how i listed it, but like i say, just because i listed it, doesn't mean i own it or anything like that, its all about a group effort.  i created a few graphics and tried to get the ball rolling as I didn't see any sign of a CoL protest and the Monaco one annoyed me. it all goes back to needing more time, i'm trying to cram in 3 months work in 2 weeks. 

i get that, but i also say that if it ends up only being a small action or not being for four days, then yes it may be embarrassing, but it might be a learning experience for the group and we can build on any mistakes for the future, one failed attempt doesn't mean the future attempts will fail, but i can see how it could damage momentum and the reputation of ukuncut which they have done well to build up into a well respected and regarded national movement.



lagtbd said:


> I'm not on a computer that I can easier link on, but google or youtube "Climate Camp Bishopsgate" (or the news from the past few days about the High Court decisions about kettling). I'd suggest that the fact you are ignorant about any of the recent history of protest in the Square Mile is but one demonstration of your unfitness to mount any kind of serious protest along the lines you suggest.
> 
> Anyway, you don't seem to be paying any attention to the reasonable suggestions in this thread so I'll probably bow out, but seriously, your attentions, your ego, and possibly your person might be more intact in the long-run if you read carefully what has been written here and involve yourselves in some of the actions and groups suggested.


 
I hope you post again as I found your post and others before it very useful. I guess maybe it has just taken a bit longer than it should have to get where you guys are coming from. I just see a lot of gray area in between, I just think if I get 20 per day from 7til5 that will be brilliant, but maybe the original post suggested it was a more professional and complete/polished action than it turned out to be and therefore was frustrating and disappointing.


----------



## Will2403 (Apr 17, 2011)

BigTom said:


> meh, the f&m sit down was totally peaceful.  All the police need to do is to place a s14 (or is it s16? dispersal order anyway) on the area and then you either leave or get arrested.  Btw, make sure you don't swear anywhere near a police officer cos that's a public order offence.. the police are far from impotent.. and can always just arrest you on trumped up charges anyway, keep you overnight then release you without charge (of course you could then sue for wrongful arrest but they don't really care, they'll do that if they think it's worth getting you off the street)
> 
> and what lagtbd said as well
> 
> I suspect UK Uncut took the event down because they thought it was a troll and not a serious event.  The big mistake you've made is calling for a 4 day occupation, not a one day event.


 
good info and good points regarding f&m and police tactics. thanks  


a successful protest application is key, i wonder if i will have to submit four separate ones?

i still really want to do the four days, but i may just have to curb my stubborness and reduce it to just one. i just think by saying these four days are just the start of a permanent peaceful protest in the city is a key part of the message, "we are here and we are here to stay until changes are made". i don't rate one day protests at all really.


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## Will2403 (Apr 17, 2011)

BigTom said:


> Yes, the city of london is a good target but you need to build up TO it, not start there and build from it.


 
I just saw it as the next step for UKUNCUT.

They have done vodafone, topshop, barclays, f&m etc.  But nothing in the City yet afaik, RBS maybe?.  I didn't see any sign of an action, certainly not a big action in the City. 

I was hoping it would happen on monday march 28th, which is why i camped out on hyde park, thinking we'll take sunday off and then get cracking over there during the working week.  If you recall, I first started with my anti-tax haven slogans and flags in the week before march 26th.

Nothing happened on march 28th and nothing looked like it was going to happen.


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## kabbes (Apr 17, 2011)

TBF, it's hard to see you as an organiser of an event that people have to travel to when you think that Monaco is 300 miles away.


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## Will2403 (Apr 17, 2011)

how far is it then smarty pants? Depends where u leave from innit. Never really thought about it. Okay, new guess 1500 from London


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## stethoscope (Apr 17, 2011)

I started off thinking Will was utterly naive about things despite his enthusiasm.

Now I'm somewhere between...



Paulie Tandoori said:


> The more I read, the more you sound like a total looney tbf



and...



butchersapron said:


> Shut up bob you boring self-obsessed cunt


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 17, 2011)

And I can see why UK Uncut deleted your action, I mean come on Will, you're like a 15 year old who thinks that creating a load of flyers on photoshop and advertising it everywhere is going to change the world. 

The last thing we need if we are to build upon March for the Alternative, is these sort of quickly dreamt up, schoolboy actions which have little organisation and co-operation with others in the movement, and which will achieve nothing. We need properly orchestrated, well planned actions with clear focus.

If I was Ed I'd see it rather embarrassing that it may be emanating from a site like Urban.


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## kabbes (Apr 17, 2011)

Will2403 said:


> how far is it then smarty pants? Depends where u leave from innit. Never really thought about it. Okay, new guess 1500 from London


 
Since you were talking to people in the UK, I think it's fair to assume that you were talking about the distance from somewhere -- anywhere -- in the UK.  And your guess was, awesomely, 300 miles.


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## BigTom (Apr 17, 2011)

Will2403 said:


> I just saw it as the next step for UKUNCUT.
> 
> They have done vodafone, topshop, barclays, f&m etc.  But nothing in the City yet afaik, RBS maybe?.  I didn't see any sign of an action, certainly not a big action in the City.
> 
> ...



A question that you should be asking yourself is this: If you see a way that you want UK Uncut to be going, ie: away from the high street to the city of london, then why weren't you in f&m participating in the UK Uncut action, meeting other people who are heavily involved in UK Uncut, and giving yourself the chance to talk - face to face - with the very people that you apparently want to persaude to do it?

I may be doing you a disservice here, perhaps you were on oxford street and in f&m but left early and didn't get nicked - even so, if you really want to influence UK Uncut you should have stayed in there talking to people, meeting them and making friends/acquantances ... build a network, take actions appropriate to the size of that network locally, hook up with other local networks to come together for bigger actions ... 


There have been UK Uncut things happening around canary wharf iirc, where many banks have HQ's, perhaps you should keep an eye out for those and get involved there.

Just to be clear, the police didn't issue a s14/s16 in f&m, it's just a power that they can use that totally undermines your idea that the police are powerless in the face of a peaceful juggler.  They could probably nick you for possession of an offensive weapon as well thinking about it, especially if you were juggling with clubs rather than balls... (cue jokes about juggling being offensive by it's nature etc. etc.).  Not suggesting the charge would stick but if they want to lift you, they will find a way to do it.

(ps: as the crow flies it's about 640 miles from london to monaco, or a very long days drive (well from papignon by the spanish border, [which is the other side of the french south coast to monaco I think] to calais took me from ~6am to ~11:30pm to drive, stopping only for breakfast and lunch, got to just west of London around 1am iirc)


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## Will2403 (Apr 17, 2011)

stephj said:


> And I can see why UK Uncut deleted your action, I mean come on Will, you're like a 15 year old who thinks that creating a load of flyers on photoshop and advertising it everywhere is going to change the world.
> 
> The last thing we need if we are to build upon March for the Alternative, is these sort of quickly dreamt up, schoolboy actions which have little organisation and co-operation with others in the movement, and which will achieve nothing. We need properly orchestrated, well planned actions with clear focus.
> 
> If I was Ed I'd see it rather embarrassing that it may be emanating from a site like Urban.


 
What, like occupying monaco and camping every Saturday night in traf. Sq?

I take your points about being naive and inexperienced and potentially embarrassing u75


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## Will2403 (Apr 17, 2011)

The organisation / co-operation and networking with the other organisations within the movement I genuinely thought i could achieve within the next two weeks and give enough time for people to commit, people who have to work wouldnt have taken time off for this mostly and those not working maybe can't (lack of funds) or dont really have to plan too far ahead so can just decide to participate and then get down there within a few days of hearing about it.

Accommodation will be the key, I will advertise couchsurfing and get in touch with squatters advice to see if there are any properties we could use for the week.


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## Will2403 (Apr 17, 2011)

Tom, I didn't really make the most of March 26th. I went on a pcs bus so didn't get there early, then had to go to manor house stn to drop off my rucksac/tent etc cos I took way too much stuff. Dropped it at a mate's house who i hadnt seen for 6 years so spent a bit of time catching up. Didn't make it over to Oxford St. til about 3ish and didn't check my phone to find out the secret location. Did see the ritz getting trashed and the dying embers of the trojan horse.

Again, interesting info re. Police tactics, thanks


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## Will2403 (Apr 17, 2011)

Re. Canary wharf, I have seen those actions now you mention it. It's a tower hamlets group, I was really eager to make it down to one of those, but due to lack of funds I didn't. I definitely will contact them to see what they think of this proposal.


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## butchersapron (Apr 17, 2011)

> Who Posted?
> Will2403 Posts: 94
> 
> 
> ...




See where i'm going with this?


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## stethoscope (Apr 17, 2011)

He's certainly wrapped up in himself with little awareness of others.


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## Will2403 (Apr 17, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> See where i'm going with this?



Where do you view that stat? Are there others? Can you search a thread and only show one member's posts? 

In my defence many of the posts by other people have been lengthy or questions directed at me. 

I'll not post on this thread again til tomoro


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## BigTom (Apr 17, 2011)

Will2403 said:


> Re. Canary wharf, I have seen those actions now you mention it. It's a tower hamlets group, I was really eager to make it down to one of those, but due to lack of funds I didn't. I definitely will contact them to see what they think of this proposal.



 you are once again showing your complete lack of awareness to what I am suggesting you do.
Don't contact them to see what they think of your idea.  Go to one of their events. Meet them, make acquantances with them, build a network, see how the group operates and what kind of things they are up for doing.
Once you know the group, once they know you, _then_ suggest your ideas.

Kind of fair enough re: march 26th, but again it shows your lack of experience.  What I think you should be doing right now is going along to things other, more experienced, people are doing and learn from them.  Try to find a group you can get involved with, not to put your ideas forward, but to learn how groups plan things and make stuff happen.  I appreciate that this might be difficult living where you are, as getting along to planning or social meets for groups could be expensive.
The way round that is to find people around you in Norfolk who are up for stuff, start small and don't try to go big until you've shown that you can do small.

Don't run before you can walk basically.


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## stethoscope (Apr 17, 2011)

Will2403 said:


> What, like occupying monaco and camping every Saturday night in traf. Sq?
> 
> I take your points about being naive and inexperienced and potentially embarrassing u75


 
And yet instead of taking advice of people who are and have been involved in some really big, notable protests and actions, you still see yourself as some kind of enigma, which everyone has been waiting on to come in and inspire change. Lose the ego and self-importance.

Instead of trying to arrange your own action which is basically not going to achieve anything, properly get involved with other groups and actions who are experienced, channel your enthusiasm and strengthen those that know what they're doing.


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## BigTom (Apr 17, 2011)

Will2403 said:


> Where do you view that stat? Are there others? Can you search a thread and only show one member's posts?
> 
> In my defence many of the posts by other people have been lengthy or questions directed at me.
> 
> I'll not post on this thread again til tomoro



On the forum page, where all the threads are listed, next to the thread title it says how many replies and views there have been

If you click on the number of replies it'll give you a list of who has replied and how many times


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## Will2403 (Apr 17, 2011)

stephj said:


> And yet instead of taking advice of people who are and have been involved in some really big, notable protests and actions, you still see yourself as some kind of enigma, which everyone has been waiting on to come in and inspire change. Lose the ego and self-importance.
> 
> Instead of trying to arrange your own action which is basically not going to achieve anything, properly get involved with other groups and actions who are experienced, channel your enthusiasm and strengthen those that know what they're doing.



fair comments. good advice 




			
				BigTom said:
			
		

> On the forum page, where all the threads are listed, next to the thread title it says how many replies and views there have been
> 
> If you click on the number of replies it'll give you a list of who has replied and how many times


thanks again


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## Will2403 (Apr 17, 2011)

BigTom said:


> you are once again showing your complete lack of awareness to what I am suggesting you do.
> Don't contact them to see what they think of your idea.  Go to one of their events. Meet them, make acquantances with them, build a network, see how the group operates and what kind of things they are up for doing.
> Once you know the group, once they know you, _then_ suggest your ideas.
> 
> ...


 
I have a few peeps in Thetford and Bury I know personally who think the idea is good and want to participate.

I said I was eager to go along to the tower hamlets action as they seem to have similar ideas to me regarding targets.  Now that they have no action planned I will contact them to see if they want to be a part of this action and to see what they think and their suggestions.

It all comes back to the lack of time and like you all say, I need to become a part of other groups and build that way.  I agree, but due to the lack of time I won't be able to make it to many/any 

I really really don't want to shelve this action if I think there is a chance of it being even a small/moderate success, and despite everything going against it, my own pigheadedness/stubbornness means that I will keep going, at least for a little while longer.


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## BigTom (Apr 17, 2011)

But the reason for the lack of time is because you aren't choosing to give it enough time.

You've got a few people around you who are up for something, that is a start, but you said further up that you tried to sort out a couple of actions in Bury and they didn't come off (for understandable reasons) iirc.
What you need to do is to work out why they didn't come off, what you can do about that and then do some things which are successful.
Let go of that stubborness, it's not helping you.  It's a great quality to have as an activist, because you need to be stubborn if you're going to lock on somewhere, if you're going to refuse to move when the police or security ask you to etc.. but you have to learn to control it.

It's not that the idea is bad, it's not, but it's premature, unplanned and doomed to failure - especially because you're asking it to be for four days.

Seriously, read up about J18 and Climate Camp at the G20 because they both did something like what you are talking about and get some idea of what is required to make something actually happen, and about what the consequences might be, especially if you don't get enough people turning up to prevent the police from doing whatever they want (and remember J18 was pre-kettling as an organised tactic)

Lets try a silly analogy.
You're in a band.. you've played a couple of local gigs to empty and half-empty pubs.  You've not managed to pull in a big local crowd, but that's fine because you're just starting.  Only now, you're trying to book wembley stadium for a week of gigs.
Does that sound like a sensible plan for the band?


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## suburbia (Apr 17, 2011)

Will2403 said:
			
		

> juggling balls, poi, firebreathers etc.
> street artists and performers



and if you get involved with other groups as suggested, you'll find out exactly what any of the above think about being expected to play alongside any untrained, uninsured person invited to turn up and call themselves a fire breather. Cast-iron excuse for the police to shut you down.


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## Will2403 (Apr 17, 2011)

yeah, fair point, firebreathing was not a good thing to list, poi / firebreathing is kind of similar, you get people doing both.

poi is just as bad a suggestion in a place with lots of people walking about and hardly any open space.

i kind of meant 'that sort of thing' 

---

who posted up the link to libcom and then removed it? lol, i get the message.
but it was too late. meh.

http://libcom.org/forums/organise/city-london-corporation-protest-03-060511-17042011

http://www.ppsuk.org.uk/index.php?option=com_kunena&Itemid=160&func=view&catid=5&id=2799

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/th...-03-05-May-2011-The-Root-of-All-Kinds-of-Evil

http://falseeconomy.org.uk/campaigns/event/the-city-of-london-corporation-protest

http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=100678056686389

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?sk=group_196201357081662


Good analogy BT. The reason for the date being so soon is I wanted it as part of the mayday protest and I figured there might be a chance of getting the activists coming to town to stay for an extra bit.  I know people who went down for March 26th and are staying til mayday, and have said they will stay on for this too


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## kabbes (Apr 17, 2011)

"Down with etc!  Up with that sort of thing!"


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## Will2403 (Apr 17, 2011)

i am seriously considering having a 'down with this sort of thing' banner. seems appropriate


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## suburbia (Apr 17, 2011)

Will2403 said:


> poi / firebreathing is kind of similar, you get people doing both.



Performers would beg to differ with you. Over the past decade, all over the UK, each time I've seen a firebreather turn up, everyone from the beginner to the professional has downed tools, upped and left, not wanting to be associated with anyone scorching their own lungs out or flamethrowing into an audience. 

You're polite enough, and get full marks for enthusiasm, but please stop theorising and take advice from those here and offline who have been doing what you're proposing for a long time.


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## Will2403 (Apr 18, 2011)

Fair points well made sub, thanks 

I will try my best to *"stop theorising and take advice from those here and offline who have been doing what you're proposing for a long time"*

I emailed Dr. Maurice Glasman for his thoughts and opinions...


> waiting for permission to quote email



I'll definitely meet with him if he can schedule me in.  The bit in bold: Do you think he's read this page (I linked it in the email) or he just worked that out from the main protest spiel?

Despite his very clear and very helpful thoughts I have still been trying to come up with a way to continue with this plan, but I just can't see it now.

I don't know if it's right that I have taken his words more to heart than those of you on here, as for the most part he has reiterated what you guys have already said.  But I guess it's because I know he knows all about this issue and where some of you might too, I don't know you or your backgrounds and experience so I was perhaps a bit dismissive of your opinions and obviously stubborn and pigheaded and desperate to make this work.

I have to admit defeat 

ps. was it wrong of me to quote his private email thoughts on a public forum without his permission?


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## Will2403 (Apr 18, 2011)

Whatever happened to london? A tale of two cities.



> whatever happened to london?  A tale of two cities.
> For the first 1500 years of its civic life, london conformed to the european pattern of urban development as a self-governing city, free from feudal lordship and hospitable to the civic virtues of legality, trade, democratic self-government and professional association.  Founded and inhabited by the romans, it is unsurprising that roman law and practice became the basis of its institutions and political language.  The status of ‘citizen’ was established by the romans and retained throughout each subsequent era.  The city also adopted through its democratic ward system and court hustings many aspects of saxon civic practice.  The ‘folk-mote’, for example, was a regular meeting of all citizens at st paul’s cross, called by the ringing of the bells where matters of common concern would be discussed and voted upon.  This formed the basis of the corporation of london and founded its position in the ancient constitution.
> 
> By 1066 the city of london had durable institutions, established legal and democratic procedures and enjoyed a unique status within the body politic.  Its importance within the polity can be gleaned from its claim to appoint kings as well as elect its own officials.  It was also the only institution to survive the norman conquest with its civic inheritance intact and its customs undisturbed.  While laying waste to the rest of the country, the conqueror ‘came friendly’ to london, recognised the liberties of its citizens, pledged himself to the defence of their freedoms and fortified the city against barbarian attack.  The tower of london was built as a reminder of the consequences of rebellion but london’s special status within the constitution was upheld by a stream of charters and privileges that protected the city of london from external interference and recognised the antiquity of its customs.
> ...


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## BigTom (Apr 18, 2011)

I'd say that you probably shouldn't put his email up here without his explicit permission


----------



## Will2403 (Apr 18, 2011)

continued:



> The 18th Century was truly a glorious epoch for the City and its Corporation.  While the rest of London struggled along without any democratic civic structures, as what the London reformer James Beal called ‘an unconstituted aggregation of disunited people’, and the apprenticeship clause in the Statute of Artificers was abolished depriving skilled workers of any professional status, the Corporation retained control of the assets granted to the citizens of London over six hundred years, as well as their rights and institutions. Its West-End freeholds were coming good, its overseas investments were returning well, political insubordination became punishable by death or deportation, as was any interference with private property.  The Corporation was re-affirmed emphatically to its rightful place as the appointer of monarchs and the custodian of the liberties of the English people.  Conflict, however, remained between the Corporation and the Crown and two very different concepts of state and empire developed, one based on ‘free trade’ and championed by the Corporation, the other based upon prerogative rule and the sovereignty of the Crown.  The future lay with free trade and not mercantilism, with democracy and not personal rule, with toleration and not religious uniformity, with the City and not the State, with the United States and not the United Kingdom.  The City of London supported George Washington and provided both funds and men for the cause.  The citizens of London in common Council Assembled reminded the King, to the point of treason, that it was they and not he who had won the Civil War.
> Even as Parliament displaced the Crown as the fundamental unit of sovereignty and democracy displaced the Divine Right of Kings as the principle of legitimacy, the British State still refused to subordinate the Corporation of London to national laws and practices.  Its assets and its ancient privileges remained untouched.  The reason for this is straightforward.  The State depended on the support of the City of London for financing its military objectives abroad.  The Corporation ensured that those political objectives were financially defined and that there would be no interference with its internal constitution at home.  ‘Free-Trade Imperialism’ was born within a culture of ‘gentlemanly capitalism’.  Wall Street and the City, rather than Washington and Westminster formed the basis of the special relationship and brokered the peace between the British and the United States after the American War of Independence.
> 
> The City survived each wave of Victorian Municipal Reform.  The City of London avoided entirely the 1835 Royal Commission which transformed civic government across the rest of the country.  A City of London Supplement was produced in 1837, which argued that the freedom was anachronistic, the Court of Aldermen oligarchic and the distribution of seats in the wards inequitable but it was not acted upon.
> ...


----------



## Will2403 (Apr 18, 2011)

part 3 of 4



> Each Labour Manifesto until 1997 included a commitment to confront the power of the City in the body politic by abolishing the Corporation of London, but the threat of capital flight and currency collapse did their work each time.  The Governments of both Attlee and Wilson were hit, and hit hard, by a sterling crisis and the need for internal investment.  Britain’s balance of payments, its place at the top table, its economic performance were increasingly dependent on invisibles; invisible exports, invisible earnings, and the power of the City of London became invisible.  The City did not have an MP of their own and yet they could set the parameters of government policy.  The Wilson Government drifted away from manufacturing towards an acceptance of the priority of finance.
> The Heath Government, if anything, reverted to a more balanced approach to the relationship between manufacturing and finance, supporting British Leyland, for example, with public subsidies.  This was the heresy that the group who became known as Thatcherites could not forgive.  They argued that a mixture of sentimentality and cowardice rendered Heath powerless before the political might of trade unions and industrialists which led to successful racketeering in terms of subsidies and unfair competitive advantage, the most extreme form of which was nationalisation.  When it came to political priorities they argued that it was best to let the market decide.
> 
> Amidst the enormous swelter of writing on Thatcherism, its most important characteristic can be obscured.  Thatcherism was based on the absolute primacy of not only the financial sector within the economy and the subordination of the manufacturing economy along with the social life and institutions that surrounded it, it was based upon financial calculation as the measure of all value.  The domination of London as a city by the City of London became absolute during this time.  The fury of Thatcherism wreaked its vengeance upon London and the outcome was decisive.
> ...


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## BigTom (Apr 18, 2011)

But I'm glad that you've spoken to him and he's basically said what we were saying.  I suspect he probably has read the thread here wrt that comment you bolded and seen the same things we were seeing.

I hope you do give this up for now, and concentrate instead on building relationships.  Go and see maurice if he can fit you in, it'll be interesting for you if nothing else


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## Will2403 (Apr 18, 2011)

part 4 of 4



> New Labour, however, were less emphatic in their response.  They wanted no return to the ‘bad old days’ of the GLC and even forbade the repossession of County Hall in order to emphasise the fresh start.  New Labour defined itself by its new relationship with the market in general and the City of London in particular.  It recognised the Corporation as the representative of the financial interest.  Finance has maintained its stranglehold over the Treasury, and the Treasury over Government policy.  Fiscal orthodoxy subordinates productive practices in the economy in the same way as office spaces replace residential places throughout the City Fringe.  London has indeed become a Capital City, a city where only money matters and where only the Financial interest has a terrestrial administration to support its lobbying.
> 
> The Corporation of London is now more powerful than it has been for a millennium.  It has never been wealthier.  Locally it dominates its impoverished neighbours and seeks to expand its property interests at its borders with a view to a depopulated financial district stretching from, in the words of Dame Judith Mayhew, ‘Victoria to Canary Wharf’.
> If the first act of the Attlee administration was the subordination of the Bank of England to political control, the first act of New Labour was to release it.  The negotiations around the formation of the new Greater London Authority (GLA) and the assumptions of the London Plan reveal the extent to which the Corporation has dominated the definition of London’s future and the parameters of ‘regeneration’.  The establishment of a ‘city-wide’ Mayor for a ‘world city’ did not include any authority for the new Mayor in the City of London itself.  He is, definitionally, the suburban mayor, with no access to the City Cash or any effective resources or powers.  The disparity between the two cities can be shown in the representation of councillors in the two cities.  The Common Council of the Corporation has 124 members representing five thousand eight hundred and eighty people, in other words one representative for every fifty two people.  The GLA has one representative for every eight hundred thousand people.  The GLA is an expression of an entirely managerial and administrative notion of civic governance.  The system is based upon the election of an individual, the Mayor, and a twelve person authority which functions in an ill defined no-mans land between advisory body and watchdog.  The Borough Councils remain the democratic units of authority and thus the Mayor is unsupported by democratic institutions.
> ...


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## Will2403 (Apr 18, 2011)

BigTom said:


> But I'm glad that you've spoken to him and he's basically said what we were saying.  I suspect he probably has read the thread here wrt that comment you bolded and seen the same things we were seeing.
> 
> I hope you do give this up for now, and concentrate instead on building relationships.  Go and see maurice if he can fit you in, it'll be interesting for you if nothing else


 
would you like to come along as well?


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## BigTom (Apr 18, 2011)

and please quit with the long c+p's, it's against the terms of service, just link to stuff like that, anyone who is actually interested will follow the link and read it.

It'd be interesting to meet him but I doubt I'd be able to make it from Brum, certainly not on a weekday which is most likely when you'd be meeting him but let me know (by pm) what happens and if he would be happy for us both to be there and if I can make it I will


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## Will2403 (Apr 18, 2011)

it was an email attachment and i tried attaching it.

i'll upload it to mediafire


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## Will2403 (Apr 18, 2011)

i emailed noam chomsky as well!  



> Dear Professor Chomsky,
> 
> I am trying to plan and organise a protest against the City of London Corporation - scheduled for 03-06/05/11
> 
> ...


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## Will2403 (Apr 18, 2011)

http://www.mediafire.com/file/tkxjvq04kc9bz06/A%20Tale%20of%20Two%20Cities%20Conference.doc


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## Will2403 (Apr 21, 2011)

Still going on with this, not for the four day thing, but maybe some point in the future.  Got a vinyl banner done by vista. It's pretty smart


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## BigTom (Apr 21, 2011)

Good, glad you've decided to call off the four day thing and look to do something in the future instead.


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## Will2403 (Apr 26, 2011)

> The Tax and Financial Transparency Bill was presented to the House of Commons on 17 March 2011. Its second reading is scheduled for 10 June 2011



Sorry for being a world class dumbass, but why do bills have to be read in parliament?  I've read this one and I'm not even allowed in there 

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/bills/cbill/2010-2011/0166/11166.pdf

http://services.parliament.uk/bills/2010-11/taxandfinancialtransparency.html

So going by that timeline, if it gets passed, it'll be enacted either shortly before, or shortly after the end of the world?

Some crappy old version:
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200910/cmbills/101/2010101.i-i.html

So who's up for a CoL protest on 10 June 2011. Do we have enough bloody time peoples?


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## Paulie Tandoori (Apr 26, 2011)

Will2403 said:


> Sorry for being a world class dumbass, but why do bills have to be read in parliament?  I've read this one and I'm not even allowed in there
> 
> http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/bills/cbill/2010-2011/0166/11166.pdf
> 
> ...


Bills are read in Parliament because the UK is currently a parliamentary democracy and that's the way that laws come into being.

Do you understand the basic principles of what it is you're wanting to protest about?


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## Will2403 (Apr 26, 2011)

Other further reading that could have done with going in the OP...

All of the Tax Justice Network website: http://www.taxjustice.net/cms/front_content.php?idcat=2
Especially, the declaration, manifesto and proposals: http://www.taxjustice.net/cms/front_content.php?idcat=3&lang=1&client=1

All of RJM's Tax Research website: http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/
Especially, the briefing sheets: http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/briefing-sheets/
Especially, his manifesto: http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Documents/Manifesto.pdf
Country by country reporting: http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Documents/CBC.pdf
Definition of the term 'secrecy jurisdiction': http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Documents/Secrecyjurisdiction.pdf
Definition of the term 'financial transparency': http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Documents/Transparency.pdf

ETA:
http://taxjustice.blogspot.com/2011/02/to-us-its-obscure-shift-of-tax-law-to.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/feb/07/tax-city-heist-of-century?INTCMP=SRCH


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## Will2403 (Apr 26, 2011)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> Bills are read in Parliament because the UK is currently a parliamentary democracy and that's the way that laws come into being.
> 
> Do you understand the basic principles of what it is you're wanting to protest about?


 
Pretty much, don't really know the ins and outs of parliament.  I thought all we had to know is they are a bunch of self-serving liars and thieves, and thats why they don't teach politics at GCSE level because you can't spread that out over two years.

So do they discuss the pro's and con's or is it just read and that's it?  If so, what are the rules on attendance and why can't they just read it outside of parliament then meet to discuss it?  





			
				Nick Shaxson said:
			
		

> http://treasureislands.org/the-city-meets-a-naughty-schoolboy/
> 
> But overall, despite these glitches, there is simply no disagreement as to the thrust of the chapter: that the City of London Corporation is an ancient, rather impregnable, somewhat alien offshore island inside the British nation state that serves as a lobbying organisation for financial liberalisation and which has carved itself out an utterly peculiar, bizarre position in the modern world.
> 
> And nobody in Britain has noticed.



It's about raising awareness about the CoLC, 
about ensuring people pressure on the passing of the Tax and Financial Transparency bill and 
the long term goal of the abolition of the CoLC and the CoL being ruled by the people via the GLA (or whatever it is known as at the time)


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## Paulie Tandoori (Apr 26, 2011)

How Parliament works - official pages

Parliament of the UK - wiki

Why anarchists oppose Parliament - Afed pamphlet


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## BigTom (Apr 26, 2011)

a reading in parliament is a debate.  
There are first, second and third readings.  A bill only becomes an act if it is voted for following the third reading.  When a bill becomes and act it means it has become law.

There can be a  long gap between the second and third reading as the bill goes through committee stages.  For instance, Lansley's health bill had it's second reading sometime back in January or February iirc but has still not come back for its third reading.
I haven't read the bill but given that it is put through by Caroline Lucas I assume it's something you want to pass?  Imo you would do better to use the time betweeen now and June 10th to build awareness of it, get people to write to their MPs asking them to support it and see what kind of response you get (from people, not the MPs).  Plan for a demo on the third reading if it gets that far, use the time now to build up a network of people to create the protest on the third reading.  Put the idea in peoples minds etc..


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## Will2403 (Apr 26, 2011)

It's not Caroline Lucas' input in the bill as much as Richard J Murphy's.  It could be being tabled by Cameron, Reagan and Thatcher for all I care (unlikely for a number of reasons). 

It is an important and well constructed bill imo.  It's quite a short read, so you should have a look and let me know what you think - invitation open to everyone else too cos I'm generous like that 

http://www.greenparty.org.uk/news/17-03-2011-tax-evasion-bill-parliament.html

I like the idea of encouraging people to write letters to MP's.  

Can we create a template for people to fill in the blanks, as otherwise they may not have the time, or know what to write, I've never written to an MP for example.  People may think it's a bigger deal than it is.

Thanks for the feedback and ideas.

Here's another link for the collection, in case people have missed it before:
LSE lecture that I found interesting and worth sharing if you guys missed it.

http://www2.lse.ac.uk/publicEvents/events/2011/20110201t1830vHKT.aspx
http://richmedia.lse.ac.uk/publicLe..._1830_theCityOfLondonAndItsTaxHavenEmpire.mp3



> Department of Law public lecture
> 
> Date: Tuesday 1 February 2011
> Time: 6.30-8pm
> ...



Here is one of the best bets, but the Q&A from 50mins on is good too. Couldn't be bothered transcribing that as this took long enough.  It's Maurice Glasman's conclusion to his speech:


> I just want to come to the point here about invisibility, secrecy and the status of The City of London.
> 
> Essentially, the population of London was removed, so the City of London is the great bearer of a tremendous political autonomy, for a thousand years it has defended itself against encroachment of the state, and as the population has moved out and the livery companies, particularly the commercial livery companies have become more powerful, the City, effectively, the greatest democratic continuous city in all of Europe becomes a lobbyist for the markets, for capital, for the power of capital.
> 
> ...


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## BigTom (Apr 26, 2011)

Yeah it's just that if you support or oppose the bill it suggests slightly different courses of action.
Template for a letter doesn't need to be complicated, but the more you can do to encourage people to write their own letters the better as MPs will disregard a flurry of form letters whilst they will pay attention to a much smaler number of individual letters.

Anyway, it wants to start something like this:

Dear (MP)

I am writing to you to draw your attention to the Tax Transparency Bill (Obviously replace this with the actual name I can't be arsed to look back to find).  This will have its second reading on June 30th and I would ask you to attend the reading and vote for the bill.

--

you then need at least two paragraphs - one which mentions Richard J Murphy/Tax Research UK / Tax Justice Network as people who have inputted into the bill / support the bill (I'm assuming TJN do), and one which talks about why the bill is important in terms of the measures it introduces and the outcome those measures will have (This may want to be two or even three paragraphs).
Keep it fairly short, you don't need to go into lots of detail - the MP or their researchers can do that themselves.
It could be a simple as one paragraph saying "this bill has been drafted with the input of Tax Research UK (web address) and will introduce measures that will make tax avoidance more difficult for companies to do.  Tax avoidance costs the treasury around £25 billion each year, and reducing this amount would [help to reduce the deficit/reduce the need for cuts]"

If I get round to reading the bill then I can do something for you but give it a go yourself.


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## Will2403 (Apr 26, 2011)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> Bills are read in Parliament because the UK is currently a parliamentary *democracy*


 
Doesn't this statement deserve at least a couple of LOLz and a roflcopta?

BT - I'll get cracking on a draft letter tomoro.

Gonna watch this now: http://www.parliament.uk/about/how/laws/flash-passage-bill/


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## Paulie Tandoori (Apr 26, 2011)

Will2403 said:


> Doesn't this statement deserve at least a couple of LOLz and a roflcopta?


depends on whether you want to organise some kind of extended protest against it or not.

sorry, did i say extended, i meant to say informed......


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## Will2403 (Apr 29, 2011)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/82012.stm



> The government will only rarely allow a ten minute rule bill to progress far enough to become law so MPs tend to use this procedure simply as a way of gaining publicity for a particular issue.



I need to contact Caroline Lucas ASAP!

Emailed my MP, gonna go grill her face to face on May 6th.

Elizabeth will be holding surgeries on the following days and times:

Any other South West Norfolkites in da hizzie, you can go grill her too...





> 6th May (Thetford) 4-6pm
> 10th June (Downham Market) 4-6pm
> 15th July (Swaffham) 4-6pm



Also, funnily enough, the right 'onourable Elizabeth Truss MP has intimate knowledge of the ins and outs of those who work in the City:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6898340.ece


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## stethoscope (Apr 29, 2011)

You should get a blog.


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## Will2403 (Apr 29, 2011)

would you read it?


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## stethoscope (Apr 29, 2011)

No.


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## Will2403 (Apr 29, 2011)

won't bother then.


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## Will2403 (Apr 30, 2011)

http://colcprotest.wordpress.com/

Done a bit of re-jigging.  Plan to network with groups over the weekend and the coming weeks.

Not sure if it'll be ready for June 10th.  If not then the next date.

Emailed Caroline Lucas for her thoughts on the best way to support the bill and her opinions on encouraging people to email their MPs.


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## manny-p (Apr 30, 2011)

Will2403 said:


> http://colcprotest.wordpress.com/
> 
> Done a bit of re-jigging.  Plan to network with groups over the weekend and the coming weeks.
> 
> ...


 

Your march is going to be a failure.


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## Tizme (Apr 30, 2011)

Will2403 said:


> http://colcprotest.wordpress.com/
> 
> Done a bit of re-jigging.  Plan to network with groups over the weekend and the coming weeks.
> 
> ...



I've read through this thread with interest and at points, some frustration Will.  Without going into my whole life history, I've not been much of an 'activist' in the past though sometimes I've been a helping pair of hands or someone 'marching'.  Before the Gen Election I was dreading the outcome, and when the paper on uni fees was published, I was devastated -I have three teenage children, plus an elderly, disabled mother who's 'care' at home is almost certainly going to be affected.  But it wasn't just them I feel devastated for.  

I had lots of ideas but I knew I couldn't do it all alone.  I emailed the Coalition of Resistance.  From that point, I have taken advice, joined in with their plans and with other protests etc.  I was in London early on the 26th March to help with handing leaflets out and of course I marched.  If you are serious about your plans, you have to show willing first and put in the leg work.  And sometimes that means early starts, late finishes, doing things when you really don't want to, and simply being committed.  As a result of my being involved with the C of R, I'm a) learning a lot, b) making contacts, and c) hopefully making my voice count.  I've now organised a public meeting in my local area to raise more awareness here.  I've had excellent help and support from other more experienced people because they've seen I'm ready to listen, learn, and do!  

Oh and btw I am one of the people now involved in the occupy Monaco idea and yes, I agree it's crazy, but what the hell - sometimes crazy is good.  Dissing anyone's plans for protest isn't a good idea.  It's falling into the same old Tory trap.  They turn us against each other in order to maintain their position.


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## Will2403 (May 6, 2011)

Fair points tizme.  I am in the process of contacting CoR and other groups to build friendships and networks to try and get more involved and hopefully further this project which I still believe is worth pursuing.

I just saw my MP, Elizabeth Truss.  Had a good chat with her, til her aide stopped the interview quite abruptly.  She said at the start I could have 15 mins or so but only got about 7 

ET MP ain't gonna be supporting the bill, she's a tory after all.  She made points regarding the insulation from risk that those within the major financial institutions have and condemned corporatism and the lack of competition caused by having a few large banks rather than many smaller ones with those within the business being liable for the risks.

She doesn't agree with having strict banking regulations here while other countries have weaker ones because the country will lose out.  She didn't have much to say when I brought up the main issue that large corporations avoiding massive amounts of tax due to complex accountancy loopholes.

I tried to record it but my battery ran out


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## kabbes (May 7, 2011)

Did you do your 3rd-5th May protest then?


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## Brainaddict (May 7, 2011)

Will, you are trying to change networks of power of great complexity and sophistication defended by propaganda embedded over generations and ultimately heavy weaponry. You don't really seem to know as much about it as you should, nor do you seem to have much experience of trying. I think you should do less talking and more listening. For about five years maybe. You should stop urgently contacting people, stop trying to organise stuff, stop trying to broadcast desperately to anyone who will listen. Just stop, and learn a bit more.


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## Paulie Tandoori (May 7, 2011)

at least he's trying to do something.


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## Will2403 (May 7, 2011)

Thanks PT.

Why isn't anyone else trying to do anything about this?

We have the world HQ of the Financial Services industry, the head of globalised capital on our doorstep, and we are just letting them get on with it.

Is it just not a problem that can be helped by street protests and this kind of direct action?

Should it be left to the Tax Justice Network, Tax Research to get on with it?

No groups / organisations or newspapers even seem to be trying to raise awareness or exposure of the Tax & Financial Transparency Bill. 

I have a strong feeling (not really much more than that), about the bill failing to progress pass its 2nd reading.


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## Paulie Tandoori (May 7, 2011)

One single Bill in Parliament won't change fuck all whatever, tbh.

That's why you need to understand a bit more about the context of your argument, which isn't ill-founded, as much as unfocussed.

Strangely.


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## Will2403 (May 8, 2011)

If it passed it would make a massive difference. 

That's why there's pretty much no chance it will.  

However, it will provide a perfect and astonishingly blatant example of the government representing its true interests, the corporations and their millionaire shareholders.


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## Brainaddict (May 8, 2011)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> at least he's trying to do something.


 
Yes, and that's admirable. But it comes across as a bit egotistical. *I* know the problem and must tell everyone, *I* know the solution and people should join me. There are reasons why no one has brought down capitalism yet. I agree that it would be best for him to join existing groups, but with the proviso that he doesn't turn up to the groups with a Plan for what other people should do.


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## Will2403 (May 8, 2011)

This is a forum of full of lefties, yet only a handful have read Treasure Islands, not many appear to check Tax Justice Network or Tax Research and no one appears to be supporting this TFT bill.  

This is after eight months of tax avoidance protests across the country.

This is the key issue that impacts massively on all other issues.

Yet everyone is talking about the royal wedding and EDL.  It's just odd.

Why isn't there more going on with this issue?


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## Paulie Tandoori (May 8, 2011)

there is, you're simply not a part of it atm apparently. lots of people have given you lots of good ideas about where to direct your energy, whether you want to listen to them is another matter.


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## Will2403 (May 8, 2011)

could you do a list or put up some links please.


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## stethoscope (May 8, 2011)

There's plenty of people on this forum actively doing stuff, but what they don't do is discuss/announce all of their entire plans on a public facing forum thread  Also, if you'd not been constantly wrapped up in talking about yourself and your own stuff, you'd see that there is other stuff going on whether it be posted here or elsewhere - get involved with groups who know what they're doing and learn.

Like Paulie says, your enthusiasm is admirable, so channel it effectively.


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## Will2403 (May 8, 2011)

who are these shady individuals???
and why don't they discuss it on here?
what are they hiding eh?

are they ninja's?

hook a bruvva up yo!


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## Will2403 (May 8, 2011)

kabbes said:


> Did you do your 3rd-5th May protest then?


 
yes we did! here is some official footage....

(ignore the title, i typed it in wrong again cos i am well fick)


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## kabbes (May 8, 2011)

Right.

So did you actually do your protest?  Did anybody turn up?


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## Will2403 (May 8, 2011)

nope, called it off. stopped promoting it when i got the email from maurice glasman


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## skitr (May 9, 2011)

Will2403 said:


> Yet everyone is talking about the royal wedding and EDL.  It's just odd.
> 
> Why isn't there more going on with this issue?


 

Yeah cause you know, millions being spent during a devestating time for millions of people across the country on a massive upper class party, and militant facism isn't important.


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