# Batley and Spen by-election



## PR1Berske (May 9, 2021)

A(nother) by-election is likely in the wings. Tracy Brabin MP is currently leading on 1st Preference votes for the newly created post of West Yorkshire Mayor. As "double hatting" is not permitted she would have to resign as an MP. 

Brabin was elected in the highly unusual circumstances of a by-election, called following the murder of Jo Cox by an English nationalist.

Previous results:


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## killer b (May 9, 2021)

Is 'double hatting' not permitted? Seem to recall Boris Johnson was mayor of London and MP for a while wasn't he?


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## Sprocket. (May 9, 2021)

And Dan Jarvis, Barnsley MP and Mayor for Sheffield City Region.


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## Pickman's model (May 9, 2021)

killer b said:


> Is 'double hatting' not permitted? Seem to recall Boris Johnson was mayor of London and MP for a while wasn't he?


Yeh that ended well didn't it


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## PR1Berske (May 9, 2021)

Fair points, I thought it wasn't allowed. I'll have a look around and see if the rules have changed or if I've jumped the gun!


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## PR1Berske (May 9, 2021)

killer b said:


> Is 'double hatting' not permitted? Seem to recall Boris Johnson was mayor of London and MP for a while wasn't he?



He wasn't at the same time but....



Sprocket. said:


> And Dan Jarvis, Barnsley MP and Mayor for Sheffield City Region.




...he was, I'm sure. 

By the end of tonight we'll know if she wins on 2nd preferences and I'm sure we'll find out if a by-election is due. 

To try and not make this thread redundant straight away, let's ask the question: in the context of Hartlepool, is a by-election here the last thing Labour needs?


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## love detective (May 9, 2021)

I think it’s not allowed in this specific instance as the mayor role includes the Police & Crime Commissioner responsibilities


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## PR1Berske (May 9, 2021)

love detective said:


> I think it’s not allowed in this specific instance as the mayor role includes the Police & Crime Commissioner responsibilities



Have just found that very quote, you've just beaten me to it! 



> *What this means for Batley and Spen*
> While we wait for the second preference votes to come in, a reminder that if Tracy Brabin wins she will have to resign as MP for Batley and Spen.
> 
> That's because the mayor will also be West Yorkshire Police and Crime Commissioner (PCC) - and you can't be an MP and a PCC at the same time.


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## killer b (May 9, 2021)

Well. it doesn't look brilliant for Labour here either does it? Heavy Woollen District Independents got 6000 votes in 2019 running on what looks like the current tory political priorities...


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## PR1Berske (May 9, 2021)

killer b said:


> Well. it doesn't look brilliant for Labour here either does it? Heavy Woollen District Independents got 6000 votes in 2019 running on what looks like the current tory political priorities...



Depending on when it's called, no, it doesn't look good. Really depends on the candidate. And how arm's length they are from Westminster (generally) and Starmer (specifically) I'd wager.


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## belboid (May 9, 2021)

PR1Berske said:


> ...he was, I'm sure.


Jarvis was/is allowed to continue as MP because the SCR Mayor has incredibly limited powers. He can invest a bit in transport and promote business in the area, but that's pretty much it. Probably less work than a weekly torygraph column.


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## Sprocket. (May 9, 2021)

Well it’s going to result in a by-election. The best prospect for Labour maybe if Burnham resigns in Manchester or Starmer might convince David Miliband to return.


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## tim (May 9, 2021)

Sprocket. said:


> Well it’s going to result in a by-election. The best prospect for Labour maybe if Burnham resigns in Manchester or Starmer might convince David Miliband to return.


Balls


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## Sprocket. (May 9, 2021)

tim said:


> Balls


And of course Caroline Flint sits pensive by the phone.


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## tim (May 9, 2021)




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## quiet guy (May 9, 2021)

tim said:


> Balls


Is he likely to want to go through it again?


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## JTG (May 9, 2021)

quiet guy said:


> Is he likely to want to go through it again?


Losing you mean?


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## redsquirrel (May 9, 2021)

love detective said:


> I think it’s not allowed in this specific instance as the mayor role includes the Police & Crime Commissioner responsibilities


Hey LD long time no see! Hope you're going well

Not going to be an easy election for Labour but I think they should have a better shot than Hartlepool


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## The39thStep (May 9, 2021)

love detective said:


> I think it’s not allowed in this specific instance as the mayor role includes the Police & Crime Commissioner responsibilities


Hi pal how are you?


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## PR1Berske (May 9, 2021)




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## BobDavis (May 10, 2021)

Blair. That would settle the argument once & for all.


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## Winot (May 10, 2021)

Voxpops on R4 WATO just now speaking to voters who are shifting away from Labour. 

"Labour are just private schoolboys now".

"They are for the immigrants not for the local people".


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## killer b (May 10, 2021)

Facebook page of Paul Halloran who picked up 6000 votes in 2019 makse interesting reading. Dunno if he's going to run again, but if he doesn't Labour are in real trouble.









						Paul Halloran - Standing Up For Batley & Spen
					

Paul Halloran - Standing Up For Batley & Spen. 5,784 likes · 1,245 talking about this. Batley born and bred. Standing up for the people of Batley & Spen.




					www.facebook.com


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## Pickman's model (May 10, 2021)

Winot said:


> Voxpops on R4 WATO just now speaking to voters who are shifting away from Labour.
> 
> "Labour are just private schoolboys now".
> 
> "They are for the immigrants not for the local people".


doesn't sound like they're shifting away from labour. it seems to me that what they're saying is that labour have shifted away from them.


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## cantsin (May 10, 2021)

Sprocket. said:


> And of course Caroline Flint sits pensive by the phone.



Wretched Kate Hoey was talking up Flint for this on R4 this morning ...

Milband isn't giving up £800K p.a for a Batley gig I suspect


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## Sprocket. (May 10, 2021)

cantsin said:


> Wretched Kate Hoey was talking up Flint for this on R4 this morning ...
> 
> Milband isn't giving up £800K p.a for a Batley gig I suspect


Flint was talking about returning to the house when she was on celebrity mastermind apparently.


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## PR1Berske (May 10, 2021)

I was about to type that Labour wouldn't be so daft as to choose a Blairite from an earlier era. But given recent events...


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## Sasaferrato (May 10, 2021)

Going by recent results, and the bar chart shown, hard to call.

The Conservatives _could_ take it, too close to call.

Irrelevant though, other than as another poke in the eye for Starmer.


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## belboid (May 10, 2021)

killer b said:


> Facebook page of Paul Halloran who picked up 6000 votes in 2019 makse interesting reading. Dunno if he's going to run again, but if he doesn't Labour are in real trouble.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Heavy Woollen Independents still stand for the council and his Facebook activity sure makes it look like he wants to run again.  As you say, distinct trouble for Labour if they don’t.


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## platinumsage (May 10, 2021)

So it begins









						Three Hundreds of Chiltern
					

The Chancellor of the Exchequer has this day appointed Tracy Lynn Brabin to be Steward and Bailiff of the Three Hundreds of Chiltern.




					www.gov.uk


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## belboid (May 12, 2021)

The Workers Party of Britain has announced its intention to stand, along with Jo Cox's sister seeking the Labour nomination.









						Jo Cox: Murdered MP's sister plans to stand in Batley and Spen
					

Kim Leadbeater announces her intention to stand for election in Jo Cox's former constituency.



					www.bbc.co.uk


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## Larry O'Hara (May 12, 2021)

Kim Leadbetter is certainly more plausible than her ex-husband, the serial sex-pest Brendan


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## PR1Berske (May 13, 2021)

This by-election has the potential to be ugly as all hell.


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## William of Walworth (May 13, 2021)

PR1Berske said:


> This by-election has the potential to be ugly as all hell.



Or to be less dramatic both in campaign and result


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## Pickman's model (May 13, 2021)

PR1Berske said:


> This by-election has the potential to be ugly as all hell.


Good


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## PR1Berske (May 13, 2021)

William of Walworth said:


> Or to be less dramatic both in campaign and result


I'm a natural pessimist


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## belboid (May 19, 2021)

Just received my invitation to stand for Labour in B&S.   I suspect I might need a broader platform than ‘Starmer is fucking useless’ though.


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## brogdale (May 22, 2021)

Someone's crunched some interesting numbers...


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## PR1Berske (May 22, 2021)




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## PTK (May 22, 2021)

I thought George Galloway was a cockney, given that he was an MP in the East End and stood for election for Mayor of Greater London. Who asked him to stand in Batley and Spen? You would think that the "Workers Party of Great Britain" could find someone more local.


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## tim (May 22, 2021)

MP at in various decades for Glasgow Hillhead, Bethnal Green, and Bradford. The world Gorgeous George's limpet. Hey going through a racist volkische phase at the moment, although he hasn't got enough principles to be a proper Nazi: George Galloway's 'you're not a Celt like me' comment to Humza Yousaf was disgraceful and appalling – Scotsman comment

More cunt than Celt in my opinion.


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## Fairweather (May 22, 2021)

tim said:


> MP at in various decades for Glasgow Hillhead, Bethnal Green, and Bradford. The world Gorgeous George's limpet. Hey going through a racist volkische phase at the moment, although he hasn't got enough: George Galloway's 'you're not a Celt like me' comment to Humza Yousaf was disgraceful and appalling – Scotsman comment
> 
> More cunt than Celt in my opinion.


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## belboid (May 22, 2021)

PTK said:


> I thought George Galloway was a cockney, given that he was an MP in the East End and stood for election for Mayor of Greater London. Who asked him to stand in Batley and Spen? You would think that the "Workers Party of Great Britain" could find someone more local.


He has only announced that the party is standing, not necessarily himself.   I think I did see something about a local dude up for it, but can’t find it now.  

either way, he’s still a thick Stalinist twat


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## PTK (May 22, 2021)

r


belboid said:


> He has only announced that the party is standing, not necessarily himself.   I think I did see something about a local dude up for it, but can’t find it now.
> 
> either way, he’s still a thick Stalinist twat


The WPGB may be Stalinists (and indeed on a video on their website their is a portrait of Stalin on hanging on a wall), but Galloway is not. He repudiated socialism (and therefore Stalinism) ten years ago in an interview with The Guardian.


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## PR1Berske (May 22, 2021)

PTK said:


> r
> 
> The WPGB may be Stalinists (and indeed on a video on their website their is a portrait of Stalin on hanging on a wall), but Galloway is not. He repudiated socialism (and therefore Stalinism) ten years ago in an interview with The Guardian.


It's all they talk about in Batley.


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## Puddy_Tat (May 22, 2021)

PTK said:


> He repudiated socialism (and therefore Stalinism) ten years ago in an interview with The Guardian.



does george galloway believe in anything these days?

(apart from george galloway that is)


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## tim (May 22, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> does george galloway believe in anything these days?
> 
> (apart from george galloway that is)



These days? I first encountered Galloway in the 80s. He was a cynical manipulative shit then, and he hasn't changed.


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## PTK (May 22, 2021)

tim said:


> These days? I first encountered Galloway in the 80s. He was a cynical manipulative shit then, and he hasn't changed.


You cannot just make casual comment like that and leave it at that. Tell us more!


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## Pickman's model (May 23, 2021)

PTK said:


> You cannot just make casual comment like that and leave it at that.


All been extensively covered in the numerous threads about Galloway over the past eighteen years or more


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## tim (May 23, 2021)

PTK said:


> You cannot just make casual comment like that and leave it at that. Tell us more!


For me it goes back to his vile behaviour when he was at War on Want between. 1983-1987.

For the note general Urban view, there's plenty here Search results for query: George Galloway


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## belboid (May 23, 2021)

Labour chooses Jo Cox's sister









						Jo Cox’s sister selected as Labour candidate for Batley and Spen byelection
					

Kim Leadbeater will try to hold on to West Yorkshire constituency where MP was murdered




					www.theguardian.com


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## brogdale (May 23, 2021)

belboid said:


> Labour chooses Jo Cox's sister
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Not a "political animal" who has only just joined the LP.
Hmmm


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## PursuedByBears (May 23, 2021)

Mrs B went to school with her, she doesn't rate her at all. Arrogant and selfish apparently, and in the shadow of her nicer sister.


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## tim (May 23, 2021)

PursuedByBears said:


> Mrs B went to school with her, she doesn't rate her at all. Arrogant and selfish apparently, and in the shadow of her nicer sister.


Is she local?


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## PursuedByBears (May 23, 2021)

Yes, Heckmondwike Grammar School.


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## SpookyFrank (May 23, 2021)

PursuedByBears said:


> Mrs B went to school with her, she doesn't rate her at all. Arrogant and selfish apparently, and in the shadow of her nicer sister.



Sounds like just the ticket.


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## ska invita (May 23, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Not a "political animal"
> View attachment 269921


she's joined the right party then.


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## brogdale (May 23, 2021)

Having literally nothing to offer but the call for sympathy vote really seems pretty desperate stuff.


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## brogdale (May 25, 2021)

Not sure that the picture editor is doing Leadbeater any favours in this vacuous Guardian puff-piece.


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## ska invita (May 25, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Not sure that the picture editor is doing Leadbeater any favours in this vacuous Guardian puff-piece.
> 
> View attachment 270253


the important things is that she's having fun.


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## josef1878 2.0 (May 25, 2021)

PursuedByBears said:


> Mrs B went to school with her, she doesn't rate her at all. Arrogant and selfish apparently, and in the shadow of her nicer sister.


Perfect for Parliament then


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## PR1Berske (May 27, 2021)

Election called for  1 July









						Date confirmed for upcoming Batley and Spen by-election
					

THE upcoming Batley and Spen by-election - triggered by Tracy Brabin's victory in the West Yorkshire Mayoral election - will take place on July 1.




					www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk


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## brogdale (May 27, 2021)

July 2


PR1Berske said:


> Election called for  1 July
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Starmer might as well book that taxi for July 2nd.


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## PR1Berske (May 27, 2021)

George is standing.


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## PR1Berske (May 28, 2021)

Paul Halloran got over 6,400 votes at the last general election here.
Laurence Fox....is......himself.
Why the candidate is photographed with the.....himself....is anyone's guess, he hasn't captioned the post.






I fear this by-election is about to be catapulted into the realms beyond surrealism.


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## steeplejack (May 28, 2021)

PR1Berske said:


> George is standing.




Watch out for all the Dumfries references to be deleted from his online presence, and the hurried purchase of a flat cap and a Batley RLFC scarf / season ticket.

Prepare also to be hectored by Joti Brar on youtube.


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## Orang Utan (May 28, 2021)

PR1Berske said:


> George is standing.



Tempted to get a bus over there just to yell at him, the egomaniacal shitgoblin


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## quiet guy (May 28, 2021)

PR1Berske said:


> George is standing.



He's looking like a reject from Last of the Summer Wine


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## DownwardDog (May 28, 2021)

quiet guy said:


> He's looking like a reject from Last of the Summer Wine



Galloway, Brar and Taaffe would make a stellar cast for a reboot of the franchise. Last of the Summer Red Wine.


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## PR1Berske (May 29, 2021)

From former MP Tom Harris in the Telegraph (whose paywall can be easily circumvented on a laptop by rapid use of CTRL+A CTRL+C)




> Privately, Labour strategists will be worried about Galloway's appeal to Batley's sizeable Muslim population
> 
> TOM HARRIS28 May 2021 • 1:30pm￼
> 
> ...





> And in a contest already so unpredictable, in a political context so febrile and inhospitable to the current Labour Party, that is the most discomfiting aspect for Starmer.


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## killer b (May 29, 2021)

I don't reckon Galloway will pick up much at all - he's not got the same roots in the muslim community now that he did in 2012, and has done much to alienate them. And Harris is wrong if he thinks none of the candidates will want to make anything of the grammar school suspensions, Paul Halloran is running a fundraiser for them so I'm fairly sure he'll be going in hard on it.


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## killer b (May 29, 2021)

In fact if you look at Halloran's fb page, it's mostly Batley Grammar stuff, and the rest is up the troops / anti-islamic fundamentalism stuff.


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## steeplejack (May 29, 2021)

A puff piece for an autoritarian Stalinist in a far right wing newspaper? Well I never.


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## PR1Berske (May 30, 2021)

A prospective candidate for Batley and Spen has had some of their....erm.....provocative....ballot paper descriptions rejected by the Electoral Commission.



> "
> ELECTION watchdogs have thrown out an attempt to launch a new political party with the slogan “Sod Scottish Referendum”.
> 
> The Electoral Commission last week ruled the phrase was too “offensive” to appear on election leaflets and ballot papers.
> ...


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## brogdale (May 30, 2021)

PR1Berske said:


> A prospective candidate for Batley and Spen has had some of their....erm.....provocative....ballot paper descriptions rejected by the Electoral Commission.


An English Independence party that opposes Scottish independence?
That's obviously been thought through carefully.


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## Sue (May 30, 2021)

> Humphrey, 47, was previously in Labour, Ukip, the LibDems and the English Democrats, and stood for the latter in Berwick-Upon-Tweed in the 2015 general election, getting 88 votes.



The Tories must feel quite aggrieved.


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## Cerv (May 31, 2021)

PR1Berske said:


> A prospective candidate for Batley and Spen has had some of their....erm.....provocative....ballot paper descriptions rejected by the Electoral Commission.



that article's from the previous by-election in 2016, not this year's

the then English Independence Party candidate (241) votes is listed as "Corbyn Anti". I wonder if he'll be running again


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## LDC (May 31, 2021)

DownwardDog said:


> Galloway, Brar and Taaffe would make a stellar cast for a reboot of the franchise. Last of the Summer Red Wine.



Last of the Summer Red Whine surely?

Anyway, it's the election that 2021 deserves tbh.


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## PR1Berske (May 31, 2021)

Cerv said:


> that article's from the previous by-election in 2016, not this year's
> 
> the then English Independence Party candidate (241) votes is listed as "Corbyn Anti". I wonder if he'll be running again


I'd say so.... 😳










						2021 Batley and Spen by-election: Revision history - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


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## PR1Berske (Jun 2, 2021)

Greens select rugby league player for by-election - BBC News
					

Ross Peltier, who lives in the constituency, plays for Jamaica and the Doncaster Dons.




					www.bbc.co.uk


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## PR1Berske (Jun 3, 2021)

Jayda Fransen, former deputy leader of Britain First, has announced her attention to stand here.


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## brogdale (Jun 3, 2021)

PR1Berske said:


> Jayda Fransen, former deputy leader of Britain First, has announced her attention to stand here.


Presumably so that she can shout _Britain First _at Cox's bereaved family member.


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## ska invita (Jun 3, 2021)

brand recognition. fuck me, so low


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## steeplejack (Jun 3, 2021)

PR1Berske said:


> A prospective candidate for Batley and Spen has had some of their....erm.....provocative....ballot paper descriptions rejected by the Electoral Commission.



clearly quite unwell tbh


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## rekil (Jun 3, 2021)

We have grift off.









						George Galloway for Batley & Spen by-election, organized by Workers Party Of Britain
					

George Galloway is standing in this by-election to bring the co… Workers Party Of Britain needs your support for George Galloway for Batley & Spen by-election




					ie.gofundme.com


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## The39thStep (Jun 3, 2021)

PR1Berske said:


> George is standing.


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## quiet guy (Jun 3, 2021)

They can't be queueing for George must be waiting to get into Spoons


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## Raheem (Jun 3, 2021)

I don't think he can win, but he can fuck Labour without breaking sweat, if that photo is anything to go by.


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## PR1Berske (Jun 4, 2021)

The "Jo" in this tweet refers to Jo Conchie, the previous LibDem candidate, whose previous role as producer of one of those "Benefits street" type programmes made her the target of severe social media backlash.


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## brogdale (Jun 4, 2021)

Could possibly be regarded as a little policy light?


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## magneze (Jun 4, 2021)

What? "Change"


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## Brixton Hatter (Jun 4, 2021)

Imagine standing for an election yet not being allowed to mention any policies


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## DJWrongspeed (Jun 4, 2021)

Betfred 

Cons 1/2
Labour 13/8


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## PR1Berske (Jun 4, 2021)

The English Democrats are standing here. Their candidate (leader, I think?) pictured dressed as the St George's Cross.


(Screenshot, rather than link, I know Urban probably doesn't need that)


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## Puddy_Tat (Jun 4, 2021)

Brixton Hatter said:


> Imagine standing for an election yet not being allowed to mention any policies



a focus group must have decided that floating voters don't like anything radical like policies...


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## kenny g (Jun 5, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Could possibly be regarded as a little policy light?



Would love to hear some of those "challenging conversations". Probably begin with an f and end with an off.


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## Brixton Hatter (Jun 6, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> a focus group must have decided that floating voters don't like anything radical like policies...


I think the problem is Labour DO actually have some policies, it’s just that they’re shit, so they can’t discuss them.


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## TopCat (Jun 6, 2021)

brogdale said:


> An English Independence party that opposes Scottish independence?
> That's obviously been thought through carefully.


I think they want an independent England to subjugate the Scots.


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## brogdale (Jun 6, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I think they want an independent England to subjugate the Scots.


Even the Romans thought fukdat


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## JTG (Jun 6, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I think they want an independent England to subjugate the Scots.


The spirit of Longshanks lives on


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## TopCat (Jun 6, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Even the Romans thought fukdat


We could send a load of self selected plucky Englishmen north, Farage at the fore, to do what is right in their hearts. We would never see them again.


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## JTG (Jun 6, 2021)

TopCat said:


> We could send a load of self selected plucky Englishmen north, Farage at the fore, to do what is right in their hearts. We would never see them again.


Perhaps they could disappear into the mists like Brigadoon, to reappear on Question Time only occasionally (maybe only every other month for example) in future


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## TopCat (Jun 6, 2021)

Just as the mists envelope them, a harsh guttural cry of “Tongs ya bas” is clearly heard.


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## Sue (Jun 6, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Even the Romans thought fukdat


Hadrian's Wall was apparently viewed as one of the worst postings in the Roman Empire because of the weather and hostile natives.

(Yes, I know it's in England. I suspect the Antonine Wall wasn't much liked either but that didn't last very long.)


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## JTG (Jun 6, 2021)

Sue said:


> Hadrian's Wall was apparently viewed as one of the worst postings in the Roman Empire because of the weather and hostile natives.
> 
> (Yes, I know it's in England. I suspect the Antonine Wall wasn't much liked either but that didn't last very long.)


Having visited Wallsend once, I can't blame them tbh


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## PR1Berske (Jun 6, 2021)

Green Party candidate withdraws/withdrawn after Tweets were discovered from him when he was 19 that were, shall we say, unsavoury. 

Source Green Party to replace Batley and Spen by-election candidate | The Green Party


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## brogdale (Jun 6, 2021)

PR1Berske said:


> Green Party candidate withdraws/withdrawn after Tweets were discovered from him when he was 19 that were, shall we say, unsavoury.
> 
> Source Green Party to replace Batley and Spen by-election candidate | The Green Party


Unlikely to be playing in the next Test, either.


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## Dom Traynor (Jun 7, 2021)

JTG said:


> Having visited Wallsend once, I can't blame them tbh


A year in Wallsend convinced me to move 18000km away


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## Serge Forward (Jun 7, 2021)

Dom Traynor said:


> A year in Wallsend convinced me to move 18000km away


On Wallsend, according to Wikpedia:


> Russian novelist Yevgeny Zamyatin worked at Swan Hunter in 1916–17, and used it as background for his great anti-utopian work We which was a major influence on George Orwell's Nineteen Eighty-Four.


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## PR1Berske (Jun 7, 2021)

Kirkless Council has just published the Statement of Persons Nominated. 


Paul Bickerdike (Christian People's Alliance)
Mike Davies (Alliance for Green Socialism)
Jayda Fransen (Independent)
George Galloway (Workers Party)
Thomas Gordon (Lib Dem)
Thérèse Hirst (Eng Dem)
Howling Laud Hope (OMRLP)
Susan Laird (Heritage Party)
Kim Leadbeater (Lab)
Oliver Purser (SDP)
Corey Robinson (Yorkshire Party)
Andrew Smith (Rejoin EU)
Ryan Stephenson (Con)
Jack Thomson (UKIP)
Jonathan Tilt (Freedom Alliance)
Anne Marie Waters (For Britain)


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## belboid (Jun 7, 2021)

good to hear Mike Davies is still around.


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## Serge Forward (Jun 7, 2021)

What happened to that Northern Independence Party?


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## Argonia (Jun 7, 2021)

PR1Berske said:


> Kirkless Council has just published the Statement of Persons Nominated.
> 
> 
> Paul Bickerdike (Christian People's Alliance)
> ...



Christ that's a lot


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## belboid (Jun 7, 2021)

Serge Forward said:


> What happened to that Northern Independence Party?


They don't really exist. 

I'm a bit surprised at the lack of ReformUK or Heavy Woollen Independents.


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## PR1Berske (Jun 7, 2021)

Argonia said:


> Christ that's a lot


Not the record (that was 26(!!)) but yeah, quite the ballot for a FPTP by election in a moderately safe Labour seat.


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## belboid (Jun 7, 2021)

PR1Berske said:


> a moderately safe Labour seat.


where the tories are now clear favourites to win


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## Argonia (Jun 7, 2021)

I'd be tempted by the Alliance for Green Socialism there, though I don't know much about them or the candidate


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## PR1Berske (Jun 7, 2021)

belboid said:


> They don't really exist.
> 
> I'm a bit surprised at the lack of ReformUK or Heavy Woollen Independents.


I posted earlier a FB post from the Heavy Woollen bloke standing with Lozza Fox. I suspect that any potential link between them is why they aren't standing.


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## steeplejack (Jun 7, 2021)

Argonia said:


> Christ that's a lot



By my reckoning 8/16 candidates are far-right (including the Tory Party).

depressing times.


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## killer b (Jun 7, 2021)

Halloran has a (very) long statement on his FB about why he's not standing, and will instead contest the next GE as a candidate for Fox's vanity party. 

Post is here if you want to check it out...


----------



## Argonia (Jun 7, 2021)

steeplejack said:


> By my reckoning 8/16 candidates are far-right (including the Tory Party).
> 
> depressing times.



The only consolation being that they might split the vote a bit. Christ I want PR - I want to see messy elections with tons of parties and lots of complicated coalitions that last six months in office.  Would beat this Tory one party state by a quadrillion miles.


----------



## killer b (Jun 7, 2021)

They won't split the vote, they'll all get fuck all and the tories will win.


----------



## Argonia (Jun 7, 2021)

killer b said:


> They won't split the vote, they'll all get fuck all and the tories will win.



Alas if I were a betting man I'd put money on that happening, yes.


----------



## PR1Berske (Jun 7, 2021)

killer b said:


> Halloran has a (very) long statement on his FB about why he's not standing, and will instead contest the next GE as a candidate for Fox's vanity party.
> 
> Post is here if you want to check it out...




"I tried to wiggle out of this arrangement but he wouldn't let me."


----------



## steeplejack (Jun 7, 2021)

Yes just as in Hartlepool the lunatic far right vote scattered across seven no hopers, and the Tory Party.


----------



## killer b (Jun 7, 2021)

PR1Berske said:


> "I tried to wiggle out of this arrangement but he wouldn't let me."


It looks to me like he's just had a lot of his supporters telling him they're voting tory tbh


----------



## PR1Berske (Jun 7, 2021)

killer b said:


> It looks to me like he's just had a lot of his supporters telling him they're voting tory tbh


Fair.


----------



## Argonia (Jun 7, 2021)

I followed the Alliance for Green Socialism at Twatter, I think they have about 100 followers. I'd like to know more about them.


----------



## kebabking (Jun 7, 2021)

Argonia said:


> I followed the Alliance for Green Socialism at Twatter, I think they have about 100 followers. I'd like to know more about them.



I've got about 600. I post utter pish and quite rarely. If they've got 100 followers on twitter, they are probably an 'alliance' of one person and their spare bedroom...

They are unlikely to cause the Halls of the Mighty to tremble.


----------



## Argonia (Jun 7, 2021)

kebabking said:


> I've got about 600. I post utter pish and quite rarely. If they've got 100 followers on twitter, they are probably an 'alliance' of one person and their spare bedroom...
> 
> They are unlikely to cause the Halls of the Mighty to tremble.



Sure.  Agree totally. And I have about 500 and consider myself very much an outsider. But I might like their policies and I'd rather vote for a lost cause than compromise to support something I don't like at all. Which is why I want PR so much - so that the little voices can get representation and not get drowned out by the behemoths.


----------



## tim (Jun 7, 2021)

steeplejack said:


> By my reckoning 8/16 candidates are far-right (including the Tory Party).
> 
> depressing times.


I make it ten:

Paul Bickerdike (Christian People's Alliance)
Jayda Fransen (Independent)
George Galloway (Workers Party)
Thérèse Hirst (Eng Dem)
Susan Laird (Heritage Party)
Oliver Purser (SDP)
Ryan Stephenson (Con)
Jack Thomson (UKIP)
Jonathan Tilt (Freedom Alliance)
Anne Marie Waters (For Britain)


----------



## brogdale (Jun 7, 2021)

Not sure she's got the hang of this at all...


----------



## hitmouse (Jun 7, 2021)

That English Democrat candidate has a very French name.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 7, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> That English Democrat candidate has a very French name.


A more Germanic name like Cwenhild would be far more appropriate.


----------



## JTG (Jun 7, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Not sure she's got the hang of this at all...



From what I've seen, she appears to be running as a change candidate in a Labour seat


----------



## brogdale (Jun 7, 2021)

JTG said:


> From what I've seen, she appears to be running as a change candidate in a Labour seat


Continuity Change candidate


----------



## PR1Berske (Jun 7, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Continuity Change candidate


Continuity Change UK candidate by the look of that tweet.


----------



## PR1Berske (Jun 7, 2021)

PR1Berske said:


> Sixteen candidates at a by-election :
> 
> 
> Bermondsey 1983
> ...



Apologies for quoting myself. 

Sixteen candidates here, and maybe it's a coincidence, maybe something spooky is happening with numbers but....

Bermondsey 1983 - 16 candidates - Liberal gain
Brent East 2003 - 16 candidates - Liberal Democrat gain
Hartlepool 2021 - 16 candidates - Conservative gain
Batley and Spen 2021 - 16 candidates - .....?


----------



## Funky_monks (Jun 7, 2021)

tim said:


> I make it ten:
> 
> Paul Bickerdike (Christian People's Alliance)
> Jayda Fransen (Independent)
> ...


I was playing a game of "which of these parties I've never heard of are massive racists" bingo. 
10 is quite impressive.


----------



## MickiQ (Jun 7, 2021)

I note that the Heavy Woollen Independents came third last time beating the LibDems, they're not standing in this election though, so I wonder who will humilate the LibDems this time around.
 Looking at that list though the next MP for Batley and Spen is going to be either Kim Leadbetter or Ryan Stephenson and I think the odds probably favour the latter one. To be fair we have not yet had the photo of Starmer posing with the candidate and drinking a pint, that seems to put the nail in the coffin.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 7, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> I note that the Heavy Woollen Independents came third last time beating the LibDems, they're not standing in this election though, so I would who will humilate the LibDems this time around.
> Looking at that list though the next MP for Batley and Spen is going to be either Kim Leadbetter or Ryan Stephenson and I think the odds probably favour the latter one. To be fair we have not yet had the photo of Starmer posing with the candidate and drinking a pint, that seems to put the nail in the coffin.


The amateur magic tricks, though?


----------



## MickiQ (Jun 7, 2021)

brogdale said:


> The amateur magic tricks, though?
> 
> View attachment 272399


f*cking hell, I feel sorry for Kim, the poor woman doesn't have a chance does she?


----------



## JTG (Jun 7, 2021)

brogdale said:


> The amateur magic tricks, though?
> 
> View attachment 272399


Got that wrong pal, that's his impression of Travolta in Saturday Night Fever


----------



## Raheem (Jun 7, 2021)

Nah. It's "Pull my finger".


----------



## JTG (Jun 7, 2021)

Is it charades and he's trying to do "twenty points ahead"?


----------



## Argonia (Jun 8, 2021)

kebabking said:


> I've got about 600. I post utter pish and quite rarely. If they've got 100 followers on twitter, they are probably an 'alliance' of one person and their spare bedroom...
> 
> They are unlikely to cause the Halls of the Mighty to tremble.



The NHA Party have a total following at Twatter of 73,500. That doesn't equate to votes directly of course - anyone can click follow at a website - but it does provide a base that could lead to seats under PR. Under the disgusting first past the post system it leads to precisely zero seats.


----------



## Argonia (Jun 8, 2021)

Has anything happened with Left Unity lately or did they disappear when Corbyn came in?


----------



## Cerv (Jun 8, 2021)

Argonia said:


> Has anything happened with Left Unity lately or did they disappear when Corbyn came in?


I think they split


----------



## Argonia (Jun 8, 2021)

Cerv said:


> I think they split



Oh bloody hell really? I found them at Facebook and they have about 17,000 in their group there. I'll try to investigate them more and see what's going on.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Jun 8, 2021)

Serge Forward said:


> On Wallsend, according to Wikpedia:


A facebook friend of mine has just recently moved there


----------



## MickiQ (Jun 8, 2021)

kebabking said:


> I've got about 600. I post utter pish and quite rarely. If they've got 100 followers on twitter, they are probably an 'alliance' of one person and their spare bedroom...
> 
> They are unlikely to cause the Halls of the Mighty to trembl





kebabking said:


> I've got about 600. I post utter pish and quite rarely. If they've got 100 followers on twitter, they are probably an 'alliance' of one person and their spare bedroom...
> 
> They are unlikely to cause the Halls of the Mighty to tremble.


I joined twitter purely to get my daily dose of batshit crazy from the limitless fountain that was Donald J Trump, now he's been thrown off it I never bother.


----------



## Argonia (Jun 8, 2021)

Christ I made sure I averted all the hints to follow Drumpf that Twatter kept dangling in front of me. I'm mad enough myself without somebody else's lunacy being fed to me on a daily basis.


----------



## steeplejack (Jun 8, 2021)

tim said:


> I make it ten:
> 
> Paul Bickerdike (Christian People's Alliance)
> Jayda Fransen (Independent)
> ...



I didn't include Galloway as far-right (authoritarian carpetbagger & chancer, yes) and didn't know if "Oliver Purser" is from the old centrist SDP or the new UKIP Patrick O'Flynn entryist tendency.

Both marginal calls though it's true. 8 or 10 candidates, it's far, far too many and far right loonspuddery has become utterly mainstream in the English context, which is frightening.


----------



## killer b (Jun 8, 2021)

It's 8 or 10 candidates most of which will be lucky to get double figures though?


----------



## killer b (Jun 8, 2021)

The story here won't be the rainbow of weirdo wannabe fascists standing in the by election, it'll be the accommodation of the strong populist right wing vote in the area in the Conservative Party, again.


----------



## tim (Jun 8, 2021)

steeplejack said:


> I didn't include Galloway as far-right (authoritarian carpetbagger & chancer, yes) and didn't know if "Oliver Purser" is from the old centrist SDP or the new UKIP Patrick O'Flynn entryist tendency.
> 
> Both marginal calls though it's true. 8 or 10 candidates, it's far, far too many and far right loonspuddery has become utterly mainstream in the English context, which is frightening.


Galloway has been going Volkische recently telling people that he's a true Celt, which they couldn't be because of their South Asian roots. As to the SDP, even Dr Death gave up on the old version. O'Flynn's is the only party around today.

As to becoming mainstream, there are certainly lots of grifters out there trying to monetise Covid denial.


----------



## killer b (Jun 8, 2021)

tim said:


> As to becoming mainstream, there are certainly lots of grifters out there trying to monetise Covid denial.


they aren't mainstream though are they? Not in the UK at least - they're loud and visible, but they're a radical fringe.


----------



## steeplejack (Jun 8, 2021)

tim said:


> Galloway has been going Volkische recently telling people that he's a true Celt, which they couldn't be because of their South Asian roots. As to the SDP, even Dr Death gave up on the old version. O'Flynn's is the only party around today.
> 
> As to becoming mainstream, there are certainly lots of grifters out there trying to monetise Covid denial.



I think Galloway is not far right, just an authoritarian opportunist. He can and will say just about anything for a few votes / party donations. He's morphed into a Unionist bigot in the Scottish context, why, who knows. He does seem to enjoy lost causes which were much more popular fifty years ago (Stalinism, British Unionism, etc etc).

In respect of "mainstream", I meant that the ideas are becoming common currency amongst a section of the electorate in a way unimaginable twenty years ago. Twenty years ago, if you were standing for a far right party, you could expect some physical confrontation and a lot of verbal abuse. I remember the odd BNP or NF leafletter running like a rat down the street after being confronted by a resident. Now we have a UKIP government who rubs their corruption and callousness in our faces, and gets away with it.

If this were twenty years ago you might get a UKIP candidate and maybe-maybe- a BNP or NF candidate, although far from guaranteed. Now there's 55-60% of the candidates from the far right. It doesn't matter that they will get only a handful of votes between them- it matters that they dominate local media with their poison and lies, in a seat where the last but one MP was murdered by one of their number.


----------



## killer b (Jun 8, 2021)

in the 2004 Hartlepool by-election I count 4 definite far right. Dunno about the independents so you could possibly add a couple more on.


----------



## tim (Jun 8, 2021)

steeplejack said:


> I think Galloway is not far right, just an authoritarian opportunist. He can and will say just about anything for a few votes / party donations. He's morphed into a Unionist bigot in the Scottish context, why, who knows. He does seem to enjoy lost causes which were much more popular fifty years ago (Stalinism, British Unionism, etc etc).
> 
> In respect of "mainstream", I meant that the ideas are becoming common currency amongst a section of the electorate in a way unimaginable twenty years ago. Twenty years ago, if you were standing for a far right party, you could expect some physical confrontation and a lot of verbal abuse. I remember the odd BNP or NF leafletter running like a rat down the street after being confronted by a resident. Now we have a UKIP government who rubs their corruption and callousness in our faces, and gets away with it.
> 
> If this were twenty years ago you might get a UKIP candidate and maybe-maybe- a BNP or NF candidate, although far from guaranteed. Now there's 55-60% of the candidates from the far right. It doesn't matter that they will get only a handful of votes between them- it matters that they dominate local media with their poison and lies, in a seat where the last but one MP was murdered by one of their number.


We have a Tory government not a UKIP government which is, as you say, corrupt and callous but I don't think they are either more corrupt or callous than the Tories were in the 1980s under Thatcher. As to UKIP itself, they first won seats in the European Parliament in 1999 and the BNP joined them in 2009, but we're kicked out by the electorate in 2014. Back in the 1970s the National Front might not have won elections but they were a  dangerous presence in many communities. Since the 1930s there has always been a relatively small but very vocal and at times violent Fascist fringe in British society.


----------



## steeplejack (Jun 8, 2021)

tim said:


> We have a Tory government not a UKIP government which is, as you say, corrupt and callous but I don't think they are either more corrupt or callous than the Tories were in the 1980s under Thatcher. As to UKIP itself, they first won seats in the European Parliament in 1999 and the BNP joined them in 2009, but we're kicked out by the electorate in 2014. Back in the 1970s the National Front might not have won elections but they were a  dangerous presence in many communities. Since the 1930s there has always been a relatively small but very vocal and at times violent Fascist fringe in British society.



My point is, we have a Tory party which has tacked to a pre-referendum UKIP position on most things with the government dominated by ultra-right crazies & sociopaths. I'm well aware of the electoral history of fascism in the UK.


----------



## tim (Jun 8, 2021)

steeplejack said:


> My point is, we have a Tory party which has tacked to a pre-referendum UKIP position on most things with the government dominated by ultra-right crazies & sociopaths. I'm well aware of the electoral history of fascism in the UK.


UKIP never seemed to have a position pre-referendum on 'most things'. They were a one-trick-pony. Since the referendum has happened all parties, not just the Tories have to accept the reality of not being in the EU. As to Ultra-Right crazies and Sociopaths, I agree, but, as I intimated before, it was ever thus. There has never been a nice cuddly Tory cabinet.


----------



## PR1Berske (Jun 12, 2021)




----------



## Sasaferrato (Jun 12, 2021)

I reckon if Labour lose this one, they will be looking for (another) new leader.

Who will be next?

They have tried hard left, and the invisible man already.


----------



## RileyOBlimey (Jun 12, 2021)

Sasaferrato said:


> I reckon if Labour lose this one, they will be looking for (another) new leader.
> 
> Who will be next?
> 
> They have tried hard left, and the invisible man already.



Burnham but he’s not an MP.


----------



## Knotted (Jun 12, 2021)

How exactly are they going to make Burnham an MP if they can't win by-elections? If you're inclined to bet on the next Labour leader don't bet on Burnham. Much more likely to be Rayner.


----------



## Argonia (Jun 12, 2021)

What about the ghost of Karl Marx to be the next Labour leader?


----------



## Sasaferrato (Jun 12, 2021)

Knotted said:


> How exactly are they going to make Burnham an MP if they can't win by-elections? If you're inclined to bet on the next Labour leader don't bet on Burnham. Much more likely to be Rayner.



There must be a safest seat, surely?

*The safest seat in the 2017 general election was Liverpool Walton, where Labour received 86% of the vote, giving them a 77% majority over the second-placed Conservatives (at 9%).*


----------



## killer b (Jun 12, 2021)

Burnham would win any marginal seat in greater Manchester certainly, and probably anywhere in the North West. He wouldn't need a safe one.


----------



## killer b (Jun 12, 2021)

(I don't think its doing to happen mind)


----------



## JTG (Jun 12, 2021)

I understand the Labour candidate has given an interview to the S*n


----------



## William of Walworth (Jun 12, 2021)

Despite the above fuckoffery (  ), I retain the fairly dull opinion that Labour will just about scrape holding on to this seat!  

, etc, etc ......


----------



## Argonia (Jun 12, 2021)

JTG said:


> I understand the Labour candidate has given an interview to the S*n


Didn't they just make a staggering loss? Aren't they going the way of Myspace?


----------



## JTG (Jun 12, 2021)

Argonia said:


> Didn't they just make a staggering loss? Aren't they going the way of Myspace?


Labour? Let's hope so


----------



## kenny g (Jun 13, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> I joined twitter purely to get my daily dose of batshit crazy from the limitless fountain that was Donald J Trump, now he's been thrown off it I never bother.


I had a look at gaba before deleting and he is in full throttle over there.


----------



## kenny g (Jun 13, 2021)

PR1Berske said:


>



George has set himself to win resoundingly once the Tory gets in.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 13, 2021)

kenny g said:


> I had a look at gaba before deleting and he is in full throttle over there.


What’s gaba?


----------



## Sasaferrato (Jun 13, 2021)

Argonia said:


> Didn't they just make a staggering loss? Aren't they going the way of Myspace?



The value of the paper has been written down to zero, which seems a bit overvalued to me.


----------



## tim (Jun 13, 2021)

William of Walworth said:


> Despite the above fuckoffery (  ), I retain the fairly dull opinion that Labour will just about scrape holding on to this seat!
> 
> , etc, etc ......


It'll be no thanks to Starbyn if they do! They should have stuck with Cormer.


----------



## glitch hiker (Jun 13, 2021)

Argonia said:


> What about the ghost of Karl Marx to be the next Labour leader?


Proletergeist FTW!


----------



## Argonia (Jun 13, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> Proletergeist FTW!



His spectre is haunting the European Union.


----------



## kenny g (Jun 13, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> What’s gaba?


A cess pit alternative social media platform which was booted from Google play and istore but has a website and a crafty replica app interface you can save to your mobile. It is one of those things that in better times would be run by us but is  infested by gun nuts, replacement theorists, far right memes and DJ trump. 

I was pleased to see the anarchist federation are on telegram before I deleted that app. Would be great if other groups had a presence to counteract the sad fuck Nazis and covid denying scum who infest it. Locally to me there seem a remarkable number of bored sex workers who populate local groups.


----------



## Argonia (Jun 13, 2021)

Thought you meant gabber techno for a minute.


----------



## kenny g (Jun 13, 2021)

Argonia said:


> Thought you meant gabber techno for a minute.


Trump on gabber


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Jun 14, 2021)

When is this by election taking place?

Edit: I see it's the 1st July


----------



## DJWrongspeed (Jun 16, 2021)

How about this from Galloway. Talk how about to not win and take some of your opponents with you.......


----------



## lazythursday (Jun 16, 2021)

I live a couple of constituencies away from Batley & Spen and I've now seen several examples of Galloway propaganda left on the train and in a local taxi office. And a guy yesterday hauling a massive Galloway banner off the train. So based on this exclusive local insight I am predicting he's going to do quite well. Cons / Lab / George, with George only narrowly beaten into third place.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 18, 2021)

Ooof


----------



## hitmouse (Jun 19, 2021)

> Announcement:
> Yes we are aware that Tommy Robinson and a plethora of far right groups in support Intend to descend on our community in Batley on the 26/06/2021
> We won't share the video as we don't want to give platform or views to fascists.
> We would like to announce in the strongest of terms , that fascists will not walk freely and without oposition through our streets. We stand with our Muslim community in absolute solidarity.
> ...


----------



## brogdale (Jun 19, 2021)

The twitter thread of polling detail under this Suration tweet is just such an enormous shitshow for Starmer...rather incredibly the only metric in which he appears to best johnson is "understanding working class people" (38 : 32).


----------



## brogdale (Jun 19, 2021)

I mean...time to think again, surely...


----------



## PR1Berske (Jun 19, 2021)




----------



## Raheem (Jun 19, 2021)

PR1Berske said:


>



He might be a piece of shit, but he's not stupid and he's not wrong.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 20, 2021)

That some briefing Labour are giving the Dail Mail


----------



## brogdale (Jun 20, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> That some briefing Labour are giving the Dail Mail
> 
> View attachment 274425


'kinnel


----------



## Sue (Jun 20, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> That some briefing Labour are giving the Dail Mail
> 
> View attachment 274425


'We're not anti-semitic but our Muslim voters are'. That's an interesting approach...


----------



## brogdale (Jun 20, 2021)

Sue said:


> 'We're not anti-semitic but our Muslim voters are'. That's an interesting approach...


Interesting, as in er...overtly racist?


----------



## Sue (Jun 20, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Interesting, as in er...overtly racist?


Yeah. And slagging off your own voters is generally seen as a fucking stupid thing to do.


----------



## Raheem (Jun 20, 2021)

If the Labour voters are not voting Labour, how can they not be to blame?

They had one fucking job.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 20, 2021)

Sue said:


> 'We're not anti-semitic but our Muslim voters are'. That's an interesting approach...


Out of curiosity, I read the full Mail article and they followed it up with another snippet later this morning 



> Sir Keir Starmer is heading for a by-election defeat that could end his leadership amid claims his tough stance on antisemitism has cost him the trust of Muslim voters.
> 
> He faces a bitter backlash from Muslim communities in Labour-held Batley and Spen, with even his wife Victoria's Jewish heritage apparently being cited as one reason not to vote Labour.
> 
> Last night, Mr Galloway said no voter had raised the issue of Mrs Starmer's background with him in Batley and Spen, adding: 'It's hard enough to get someone to give a toss about Keir Starmer, never mind about his wife.'


----------



## brogdale (Jun 20, 2021)

Raheem said:


> If the Labour voters are not voting Labour, how can they not be to blame?
> 
> They had one fucking job.



Die Lösung


----------



## Cerv (Jun 20, 2021)

if truly "It's hard enough to get someone to give a toss about Keir Starmer" then why is the twat running his entire campaign on how very mad he is about Starmer?


----------



## CNT36 (Jun 20, 2021)

Cerv said:


> if truly "It's hard enough to get someone to give a toss about Keir Starmer" then why is the twat running his entire campaign on how very mad he is about Starmer?


Fuck Galloway but that line still got a chortle.


----------



## andysays (Jun 21, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> That some briefing Labour are giving the Dail Mail
> 
> View attachment 274425


I wonder who the "senior Labour official" will turn out to be and if, when as seems inevitable Labour actually lose, this reason will be given as part of the official justification for the loss.

Apart from the blatant anti Muslim sentiment and the tactical mistake of blaming your own potential voters, it appears that the Starmer camp are unable to recognise that the "main factor" in all this is just how shit Kier Starmer himself is, on every level.


----------



## YouSir (Jun 21, 2021)

andysays said:


> I wonder who the "senior Labour official" will turn out to be and if, when as seems inevitable Labour actually lose, this reason will be given as part of the official justification for the loss.
> 
> Apart from the blatant anti Muslim sentiment and the tactical mistake of blaming your own potential voters, it appears that the Starmer camp are unable to recognise that the "main factor" in all this is just how shit Kier Starmer himself is, on every level.



From what I hear, local to me at least, the defences of Starmer from the Right are half hearted at best, their main priority atm is still wrecking and purging local parties. Keith will be turned on when they're satiated with that though.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 21, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> That some briefing Labour are giving the Dail Mail
> 
> View attachment 274425



Labour are so shit now it wouldn't surprise me if their response was to officially adopt antisemitism as a policy platform.


----------



## steeplejack (Jun 21, 2021)

If Georrge Galloway is the one to york Starmer after he's been bruised and battered by a torrid spell of short pitched bowling from the most corrupt and deceitful British government most can remember, I'm fine with it, even if Galloway is a loathsome, unprincipled shit.

Pretty obvious it's time he was trudging back to the pavillion if the Labour Party is to survive in meaningful / recognisable form, let alone challenge to be a government again. Totally clueless and out of his depth.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jun 21, 2021)

i take it that george "you're not a celt like me" galloway is going after the muslim vote this month, then?


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 21, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> i take it that george "you're not a celt like me" galloway is going after the muslim vote this month, then?


‘the pro Palestine vote ‘


----------



## MickiQ (Jun 21, 2021)

George will go for any vote he can get the man has the principals of a Great White, but at the end of the day he is only going to get a ragtag of discontented voters who don't want to vote for Labour but can't bring themselves to vote for  the Tories or the LibDem. It's a reflection of how sad a state that Labour is in that the votes of a few malcontents that could once be ignored are being fought over.


----------



## ska invita (Jun 21, 2021)

steeplejack said:


> If Georrge Galloway is the one to york Starmer after he's been bruised and battered by a torrid spell of short pitched bowling from the most corrupt and deceitful British government most can remember, I'm fine with it, even if Galloway is a loathsome, unprincipled shit.
> 
> Pretty obvious it's time he was trudging back to the pavillion if the Labour Party is to survive in meaningful / recognisable form, let alone challenge to be a government again. Totally clueless and out of his depth.


there needs to be a party to the left of labour that hurts labour in elections, so might as well be this crazy ego-vehicle


----------



## killer b (Jun 21, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> George will go for any vote he can get the man has the principals of a Great White, but at the end of the day he is only going to get a ragtag of discontented voters who don't want to vote for Labour but can't bring themselves to vote for  the Tories or the LibDem. It's a reflection of how sad a state that Labour is in that the votes of a few malcontents that could once be ignored are being fought over.


who are the few malcontents you're thinking of here? The 6000 who voted for the populist right independent candidate in 2019, or the sizeable muslim minority in B&S? I'm not sure it's sensible to ignore either tbh


----------



## chilango (Jun 21, 2021)

ska invita said:


> there needs to be a party to the left of labour that hurts labour in elections, so might as well be this crazy ego-vehicle


Not convinced Galloway (and whatever bunch of fools he's roped in this time*) are left of anything tbh.

*his "Party" (WPB), not those voting for him.


----------



## ska invita (Jun 21, 2021)

chilango said:


> Not convinced Galloway (and whatever bunch of fools he's roped in this time*) are left of anything tbh.
> 
> *his "Party" (WPB), not those voting for him.


true


----------



## MickiQ (Jun 21, 2021)

killer b said:


> who are the few malcontents you're thinking of here? The 6000 who voted for the populist right independent candidate in 2019, or the sizeable muslim minority in B&S? I'm not sure it's sensible to ignore either tbh


The people who vote for George, the man is a protest candidate (despite what he thinks) I suspect that Starmer' biggest problem is not going to be people who switch their votes from Labour to the Tories but those who just decide to simply not bother at all.


----------



## killer b (Jun 21, 2021)

Labour can lose this, badly, without a single person changing their vote from Labour to Tory if - as seems likely - those 6000 _protest votes_ from last time shift en masse to the tories. 

FWIW I've changed my view on how Galloway is likely to do - I think he's likely to do some decent numbers.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 21, 2021)

killer b said:


> Labour can lose this, badly, without a single person changing their vote from Labour to Tory if - as seems likely - those 6000 _protest votes_ from last time shift en masse to the tories.
> 
> FWIW I've changed my view on how Galloway is likely to do - I think he's likely to do some decent numbers.


Not to mention the stay at home/can't be arsed (former) Labour voters.


----------



## killer b (Jun 21, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Not to mention the stay at home/can't be arsed (former) Labour voters.


I don't think they, or Galloway's vote however big it is, really make any material difference - except to how badly Labour are going to lose


----------



## brogdale (Jun 21, 2021)

killer b said:


> I don't think they, or Galloway's vote however big it is, really make any material difference - except to how badly Labour are going to lose


Yep, that's what I was getting at.


----------



## rekil (Jun 21, 2021)

Point of information. Great whites are shit hot apex predators. Galloway is a bottom feeder.


----------



## tim (Jun 21, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> ‘the pro Palestine vote ‘


Galloway won Bradford with cross-community support.  He then did nothing once elected. There is nothing wrong with most of what he will say. He certainly won't be repeating the Volkische Celt stuff he came out with in Scotland a month or so ago The problem is that he doesn't mean it.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 21, 2021)

tim said:


> Galloway won Bradford with cross-community support.  He then did nothing once elected. There is nothing wrong with most of what he will say. He certainly won't be repeating the Volkische Celt stuff he came out with in Scotland a month or so ago The problem is that he doesn't mean it.


Oh yes the Arab Spring


----------



## brogdale (Jun 21, 2021)

The tragedy being that this appalling woman is almost certainly right about this.


----------



## tim (Jun 21, 2021)

killer b said:


> I don't think they, or Galloway's vote however big it is, really make any material difference - except to how badly Labour are going to lose


I hope he doesn't, however, he's done it before
Galloway returns to Parliament in sensational win in Bradford West - Labour/Coalition  smashed

https://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/in-bethnal-green-and-bow-i-would-vote-for.41544/

Post in thread 'In Bethnal Green and Bow I would vote for:' https://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/in-bethnal-green-and-bow-i-would-vote-for.41544/post-1454164


----------



## killer b (Jun 21, 2021)

I am aware of George Galloway's political career.


----------



## JTG (Jun 21, 2021)

steeplejack said:


> If Georrge Galloway is the one to york Starmer after he's been bruised and battered by a torrid spell of short pitched bowling from the most corrupt and deceitful British government most can remember, I'm fine with it, even if Galloway is a loathsome, unprincipled shit.
> 
> Pretty obvious it's time he was trudging back to the pavillion if the Labour Party is to survive in meaningful / recognisable form, let alone challenge to be a government again. Totally clueless and out of his depth.


Thing is, it's not just Starmer. The entire party bureaucracy, 90% of the PLP and most of its councillors are also determined to keep treading the path to oblivion. Every suspension, CLP coup, dodgy/fixed AGM further ensures they will get there. Purging the party in order to set up a vacuum in its place


----------



## Guineveretoo (Jun 21, 2021)

Owen Jones has made a video about Batley and Spen and George.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jun 21, 2021)

JTG said:


> Thing is, it's not just Starmer. The entire party bureaucracy, 90% of the PLP and most of its councillors are also determined to keep treading the path to oblivion. Every suspension, CLP coup, dodgy/fixed AGM further ensures they will get there. Purging the party in order to set up a vacuum in its place



Not sure any of those reasons explain what’s happening _everywhere outside of university towns _to Labour’s vote. They are symptoms of a wider decomposition that’s been eating away Labour for 40 odd years. What’s remarkable is the speed of the collapse under Starmer


----------



## ska invita (Jun 21, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> . What’s remarkable is the speed of the collapse under Starmer


It's almost cheering


----------



## JTG (Jun 21, 2021)

Framing the by-election as an opportunity to claim the head of the LOTO probably makes it more likely to be a Tory gain imo

Certainly won't inspire anyone to save SKS at all costs


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## SpookyFrank (Jun 21, 2021)

JTG said:


> Framing the by-election as an opportunity to claim the head of the LOTO probably makes it more likely to be a Tory gain imo



I'd consider voting Tory on that basis tbh. On the grounds that a Starmer-led opposition is far more help to the tories than one extra seat.


----------



## hitmouse (Jun 21, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> I'd consider voting Tory on that basis tbh. On the grounds that a Starmer-led opposition is far more help to the tories than one extra seat.


Wait till you see who they replace him with, though.


----------



## William of Walworth (Jun 21, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> *I'd consider voting Tory on that basis tbh*. On the grounds that a Starmer-led opposition is far more help to the tories than one extra seat.


Bolded bit : there are literally *no* circumstances in  existence  anywhere ever, that would make me even _begin_ to consider voting Tory!!


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## Raheem (Jun 22, 2021)

I wouldn't ever vote Tory, but I don't think I'd be very disappointed by a Tory win in this particular by election.


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## tim (Jun 22, 2021)

Raheem said:


> I wouldn't ever vote Tory, but I don't think I'd be very disappointed by a Tory win in this particular by election.


Any Tory win diminishes me.


----------



## Raheem (Jun 22, 2021)

Even if it doesn't convince them to dump Starmer, they deserve what they get. I don't see how it can be argued otherwise. I can be depressed by the whole scenario, but not honestly disappointed by the result.


----------



## Guineveretoo (Jun 22, 2021)

I really don't think Labour should be "dumping" Starmer. He is the elected leader of the party, and the party needs to get behind him. They should be flooding Batley and Spen to ensure that Kim Leadbeater wins. 

And that is not because I am a huge fan of Starmer (although I did vote for him) but because we need an effective Opposition, which is not just about one man, and which will not be achieved if the Party keeps changing its leader.


----------



## kebabking (Jun 22, 2021)

Guineveretoo said:


> I really don't think Labour should be "dumping" Starmer. He is the elected leader of the party, and the party needs to get behind him. They should be flooding Batley and Spen to ensure that Kim Leadbeater wins.
> 
> And that is not because I am a huge fan of Starmer (although I did vote for him) but because we need an effective Opposition, which is not just about one man, and which will not be achieved if the Party keeps changing its leader.



I think this is true - Starmer has been a damp squib, Labour isn't exactly innovative policy heavy, and the front bench would be hard pushed to get into the 2nd XI (reserves) - but Labours position is not going to be improved by chopping and changing leaders ever two years.

Johnson's popularity, and Starmers unpopularity, are only inexplicable if you only look to the UK. Crap governments are inexplicably popular across the world, Covid has provided an 'incumbents haven', and whether it last for another 6 months, or two years, or 5 years, I think it just has to be weathered, because I don't see much apart from time, and self-inflicted events changing it. 

I think Starmer ought to tack left on some of the economic stuff, but I don't see that having any immediate/medium term effect, but it would be a sensible policy of getting the public used to hearing this stuff long before the next GE.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jun 22, 2021)

kebabking said:


> I think this is true - Starmer has been a damp squib, Labour isn't exactly innovative policy heavy, and the front bench would be hard pushed to get into the 2nd XI (reserves) - but Labours position is not going to be improved by chopping and changing leaders ever two years.
> 
> Johnson's popularity, and Starmers unpopularity, are only inexplicable if you only look to the UK. Crap governments are inexplicably popular across the world, Covid has provided an 'incumbents haven', and whether it last for another 6 months, or two years, or 5 years, I think it just has to be weathered, because I don't see much apart from time, and self-inflicted events changing it.
> 
> I think Starmer ought to tack left on some of the economic stuff, but I don't see that having any immediate/medium term effect, but it would be a sensible policy of getting the public used to hearing this stuff long before the next GE.



This is important. A few years ago Labour seemed teeming with ideas (of varying degrees of merit), new groups popped up committed to 'ideas' and seemed ready to, at least accept the need for, a fundamental re-think about theory and method. Fast forward to 2021 and there is nobody on the frontbench who even attempting to grasp the nettle of thinking about the post Covid challenge or advancing policy ideas. Whether that's a lack of intellectual talent or the dead hand of the leader or both is hard to say.


----------



## glitch hiker (Jun 22, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> I'd consider voting Tory on that basis tbh. On the grounds that a Starmer-led opposition is far more help to the tories than one extra seat.


So it's worth it because in the long run it helps build a better opposition?

just trying to understand


----------



## killer b (Jun 22, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> This is important. A few years ago Labour seemed teeming with ideas (of varying degrees of merit), new groups popped up committed to 'ideas' and seemed ready to, at least accept the need for, a fundamental re-think about theory and method. Fast forward to 2021 and there is nobody on the frontbench who even attempting to grasp the nettle of thinking about the post Covid challenge or advancing policy ideas. Whether that's a lack of intellectual talent or the dead hand of the leader or both is hard to say.


are you trying to say that Annalise Dodds' _Better Together_ policy review isn't teeming with fresh ideas from the title onwards?


----------



## kebabking (Jun 22, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> So it's worth it because in the long run it helps build a better opposition?
> 
> just trying to understand



Politics is about weighing, balancing, and choosing different risks.

I can see why some might take the view that a heavy defeat for Starmer that causes his quick departure might at least allow for the possibility of something better/more effective. Personally I'm not convinced, but I do accept that my track record means that my position as Urbans' most accomplished political observer, theoretician, pundit and forecaster might be open to challenge...


----------



## tim (Jun 22, 2021)

Guineveretoo said:


> I really don't think Labour should be "dumping" Starmer. He is the elected leader of the party, and the party needs to get behind him. They should be flooding Batley and Spen to ensure that Kim Leadbeater wins.
> 
> And that is not because I am a huge fan of Starmer (although I did vote for him) but because we need an effective Opposition, which is not just about one man, and which will not be achieved if the Party keeps changing its leader.


He can't bounce back from this, so it would make more sense to dump him now when we are three years away from the next General  Election.


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## DotCommunist (Jun 22, 2021)

after three by election losses in a row people on the PLP with majorities of a few thousand will start feeling twitchy, regardless of what wider opinion on starmers suitability as leader is. On my own opinion I think that even if starmer had lived up to the qualities people wanted to project onto him it would be too late to stop the wider rot


----------



## killer b (Jun 22, 2021)

tim said:


> He can't bounce back from this, so it would make more sense to dump him now when we are three years away from the next General  Election.


I read some analysis a bit ago that seemed to show that any Labour opposition leader with longer than a couple of years in the saddle is basically doomed to lose the next election as that's how long it takes for the press to destroy them with the public. best leaving it another year in that case.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jun 22, 2021)

I'm surprised I haven't seen more 'leadbeater' puns yet.


----------



## andysays (Jun 22, 2021)

tim said:


> He can't bounce back from this, so it would make more sense to dump him now when we are three years away from the next General  Election.


Maybe this question would be better discussed on a different thread, but if Labour do decide to replace Starmer after losing B&S, is there really anyone who could do the job better, especially given the generally rightish make up of the PLP?


----------



## kebabking (Jun 22, 2021)

tim said:


> He can't bounce back from this, so it would make more sense to dump him now when we are three years away from the next General  Election.



I think this is wrong, I think he _can_ bounce back, or at least Johnson can nose dive.

Johnson has three years of difficult government ahead of him, and he's got different wings of both the party, and the Tory electorate, pulling him in different directions.

I am absolutely _not_ saying that I think Starmer will win in 2024 with 400 seats, I think he'll probably cruise to a lesser defeat than in 2019, with the LD's making gains in the Tory south, and the Tories losing _some_ of their northern gains simply because of indifference amongst the brexity/historically-Labour electorate.

I accept that a change in leadership 3 years before a GE raises the _possibility_ of a better result, but I don't accept that it's a _probability_, and I think it carries a far greater risk of danger than it carries a chance of success.


----------



## chilango (Jun 22, 2021)

kebabking said:


> I think this is wrong, I think he _can_ bounce back, or at least Johnson can nose dive.
> 
> Johnson has three years of difficult government ahead of him, and he's got different wings of both the party, and the Tory electorate, pulling him in different directions.
> 
> ...



Thing is when Johnson nose dives, they'll just replace him with a shiny "fresh start" Tory who'll benefit from new leader bounce and win the GE.

At least that'll be the plan.


----------



## chilango (Jun 22, 2021)

andysays said:


> Maybe this question would be better discussed on a different thread, but if Labour do decide to replace Starmer after losing B&S, is there really anyone who could do the job better, especially given the generally rightish make up of the PLP?



No.

Nor is there on the left of the PLP either.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jun 22, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> So it's worth it because in the long run it helps build a better opposition?
> 
> just trying to understand



Like how Starmer's pals sabotaged Labour to get rid of a leader they hated, only backwards.

I was joking anyway. I don't think a rout in Batley and Spen will end Starmer and I would never vote tory. Or, for that matter, live in Yorkshire.


----------



## Raheem (Jun 22, 2021)

Jeff Robinson said:


> I'm surprised I haven't seen more 'leadbeater' puns yet.


Maybe the discussion should have been.


----------



## PR1Berske (Jun 22, 2021)




----------



## killer b (Jun 22, 2021)

Is he aiming to join the lib dems?


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## kebabking (Jun 22, 2021)

chilango said:


> ing is when Johnson nose dives, they'll just replace him with a shiny "fresh start" Tory who'll benefit from new leader bounce and win the GE.
> 
> At least that'll be the plan.



I'm sure that's _the_ plan, I'm just not convinced it's Johnsons plan, or is going to stand up to the constituency parties, which were subject to significant 'kipper infiltration, and aren't reticent about twisting the arms of their MP's to be Johnson fan-boys. 

The Men in Grey Suits have been replaced by Men in Kipper Socks....


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jun 22, 2021)

chilango said:


> No.
> 
> Nor is there on the left of the PLP either.



This is often overlooked in the noise around Starmer.

I previously had relatively high hopes for Rayner (on a limited social democratic basis plus her lived experience) but her intervention today on the experience of white working class boys in the education system is revealing of a general confusion and political degeneration. Burnham's professional northerner routine seems to have rehabilitated him but conveniently overlooks his career in Parliament and as a new Labour minister. And who can forget his flaccid leadership campaign when Corbyn won? Lewis wants an alliance with Sir Ed Davey. I am assuming we can all agree that if Nandy is the answer the question is wrong. McDonnell is semi-retired. Am I missing _anyone?_


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 22, 2021)

Rachel Reeves

(Probably still a little too early for her to run but I suspect that if Starmer we to stand down in the years time she'd be in contention)


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jun 22, 2021)

redsquirrel said:


> Rachel Reeves
> 
> (Probably still a little too early for her to run but I suspect that if Starmer we to stand down in the years time she'd be in contention)



Change we can believe in


----------



## chilango (Jun 22, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> This is often overlooked in the noise around Starmer.
> 
> I previously had relatively high hopes for Rayner (on a limited social democratic basis plus her lived experience) but her intervention today on the experience of white working class boys in the education system is revealing of a general confusion and political degeneration. Burnham's professional northerner routine seems to have rehabilitated him but conveniently overlooks his career in Parliament and as a new Labour minister. And who can forget his flaccid leadership campaign when Corbyn won? Lewis wants an alliance with Sir Ed Davey. I am assuming we can all agree that if Nandy is the answer the question is wrong. McDonnell is semi-retired. Am I missing _anyone?_



Zarah Sultana? Ian Lavery?

It's definitely slim pickings. I don't see anyone looking like they have the capability to lead the Labour Party nevermind win a GE regardless of platform.

But, in fairness, I'd equally struggle to think of anyone outside the PLP capable of fronting any sort of Left-ish challenge to the Govt.

Marcus Rashford has done better than any politician.


----------



## Dogsauce (Jun 22, 2021)

William of Walworth said:


> Bolded bit : there are literally *no* circumstances in  existence  anywhere ever, that would make me even _begin_ to consider voting Tory!!



Not even if they gave you a vote on what type of aggregate to use for a local bypass?


----------



## William of Walworth (Jun 22, 2021)

Dogsauce said:


> Not even if they gave you a vote on what type of aggregate to use for a local bypass?


A subject of zero interest to me, so please have a   (  )


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jun 22, 2021)

chilango said:


> Zarah Sultana? Ian Lavery?
> 
> It's definitely slim pickings. I don't see anyone looking like they have the capability to lead the Labour Party nevermind win a GE regardless of platform.
> 
> ...



Agreed, and even if there was the more profound question: what is Labour for and what is the necessary narrative required to re-connect isn't being seriously engaged with and is strikingly absent in most of the debate/writing that I am reading....


----------



## Dogsauce (Jun 22, 2021)

William of Walworth said:


> A subject of zero interest to me, so please have a   (  )


If it was a choice between a well-graded type 2 recycled aggregate or suitably shredded members of the Conservative party, the latter would get my vote every time, even if the final formation was a bit undulating due to decomposition.


----------



## chilango (Jun 22, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Agreed, and even if there was the more profound question: what is Labour for and what is the necessary narrative required to re-connect isn't being seriously engaged with and is strikingly absent in most of the debate/writing that I am reading....



...and indeed who and/or what needs reconnection and who/what needs connecting with that haven't been before and how to face any tensions between the two.


----------



## tim (Jun 22, 2021)

chilango said:


> Thing is when Johnson nose dives, they'll just replace him with a shiny "fresh start" Tory who'll benefit from new leader bounce and win the GE.
> 
> At least that'll be the plan.


Who are "They"?

The Tories are as fucking useless as Labour when it comes to picking a leader and then uniting behind them. There is no plan. There is no eminence grise pulling the strings.When Johnson goes there will be a shit-fight and there'll be no uniting behind the leader once it's over. Just think for a minute about all those who will be jostling for power.

I've never understood this bizarre conspiracy theory about the Tories.


----------



## chilango (Jun 22, 2021)

tim said:


> Who are "They"?
> 
> The Tories are as fucking useless as Labour when it comes to picking a leader and then uniting behind them. There is no plan. There is no eminence grise pulling the strings.When Johnson goes there will be a shit-fight and there'll be no uniting behind the leader once it's over. Just think for a minute about all those who will be jostling for power.
> 
> I've never understood this bizarre conspiracy theory about the Tories.



So useless that after more than a decade in power their position is stronger than ever?


----------



## William of Walworth (Jun 22, 2021)

Dogsauce said:


> If it was a choice between a well-graded type 2 recycled aggregate or suitably shredded members of the Conservative party, the latter would get my vote every time, even if the final formation was a bit undulating due to decomposition.




I get it now!


----------



## tim (Jun 22, 2021)

chilango said:


> So useless that after more than a decade in power their position is stronger than ever?


It's not because of their Machiavellian maneuverings. Remember, less than 2 years ago they booted out May and then went for each other with gusto, repeating the process they'd gone through three years previously with Cameron.

If their position is strong, which the result in Amersham seems to out into question, it is because they are the incumbents in the middle of a national health crisis and because as this thread shows Labour is also led by duplicitous cunts.

What evidence do you have that the Tories are not a bunch of shit-gibbons unable to mask just how much they loathe each other?


----------



## andysays (Jun 22, 2021)

chilango said:


> No.
> 
> Nor is there on the left of the PLP either.


No would be my answer too.

And unless my reference to the generally rightish PLP wasn't clear, what I meant was that even if a leftish leader who was prepared to argue for decent policies did miraculously emerge, they would struggle to get that position heard without being undermined by many of their MPs.


----------



## Guineveretoo (Jun 22, 2021)

tim said:


> He can't bounce back from this, so it would make more sense to dump him now when we are three years away from the next General  Election.


I don't agree. On either of those points. If the party members got behind him, he could ride this out. 

As it is, it is the members that are destroying the party, not him.


----------



## ska invita (Jun 22, 2021)

Guineveretoo said:


> As it is, it is the members that are destroying the party, not him.


How are they doing that?


----------



## belboid (Jun 22, 2021)

Guineveretoo said:


> I don't agree. On either of those points. If the party members got behind him, he could ride this out.
> 
> As it is, it is the members that are destroying the party, not him.


Hmm, when did we last hear that? It is the eternal mantra of the party.  Unless a lefty leader gets in in which case it’s all out war.  

There is a vague chance he could recover, this has been a somewhat unusual year and a half after all.   But it’s unlikely in the best of circumstances and impossible unless he actually makes a stand on _something_.


----------



## lazythursday (Jun 22, 2021)

Guineveretoo said:


> I don't agree. On either of those points. If the party members got behind him, he could ride this out.
> 
> As it is, it is the members that are destroying the party, not him.


A bit flabbergasted at this to be honest. His leadership has been one long series of mis-steps and fuckups (and attacks on members in many parts of the country, such as Liverpool) and somehow the situation is the members fault? There's not really even that much evidence of a big members' revolt or anything at the moment, so am struggling to see how you can interpret events in that way.


----------



## JTG (Jun 22, 2021)

Thread has taken an odd turn

Labour are dead lads. Lights may be on but nobody's home and they're past reviving


----------



## Guineveretoo (Jun 22, 2021)

belboid said:


> Hmm, when did we last hear that? It is the eternal mantra of the party.  Unless a lefty leader gets in in which case it’s all out war.
> 
> There is a vague chance he could recover, this has been a somewhat unusual year and a half after all.   But it’s unlikely in the best of circumstances and impossible unless he actually makes a stand on _something_.


Does it not feel like all out war within the party now?  

And, btw, I said very similar stuff when Corbyn was leader - I thought it was wrong to undermine him and to try and oust him, and I voted for him twice.


----------



## Guineveretoo (Jun 22, 2021)

lazythursday said:


> A bit flabbergasted at this to be honest. His leadership has been one long series of mis-steps and fuckups (and attacks on members in many parts of the country, such as Liverpool) and somehow the situation is the members fault? There's not really even that much evidence of a big members' revolt or anything at the moment, so am struggling to see how you can interpret events in that way.


I am not saying that he is faultless, but he is the elected leader of the Labour Party and we need to get behind him. That is not happening, at least not universally, and there is quite a lot of organising to call a vote of no confidence in him, which is, I think, unhelpful.

But this is probably not the thread for that kind of detailed discussion...

Sorry to have flabbergasted you, although I don't really know why. Do you think I am some knowledgeable party activist rather than an anonymous urban poster who doesn't know very much about anything?


----------



## ska invita (Jun 22, 2021)

I've lost track of all Starmers crap but Member Suspensions/Forde Report Burial/ Corbyns suspension immediately breaking the findings of the EHRC report/Starmers Zionism/Pathetic FlagShagging/Capitulation to the Tories on Everything/Sucking Nick Ferarris stinking cock/taking a sole principled stand against raising Corporation Tax/Bringing Back Mandelson/Cleary Attempting to Kill of the Left in Labour/Winning the Leadership on Lies.... I just want to see him and his lose and lose in devastating fashion. 
The expression Dont Vote It Just Encourages Them has rarely been truer


----------



## lazythursday (Jun 22, 2021)

Guineveretoo said:


> I am not saying that he is faultless, but he is the elected leader of the Labour Party and we need to get behind him. That is not happening, at least not universally, and there is quite a lot of organising to call a vote of no confidence in him, which is, I think, unhelpful.
> 
> But this is probably not the thread for that kind of detailed discussion...
> 
> Sorry to have flabbergasted you, although I don't really know why. Do you think I am some knowledgeable party activist rather than an anonymous urban poster who doesn't know very much about anything?


Well perhaps you are more knowledgeable than me about the no-confidence organising. I just don't think the problems on display at the moment in Labour are characterised mainly by disunity or member complaints. That just seems an odd way of looking at it.


----------



## tim (Jun 22, 2021)

Guineveretoo said:


> I don't agree. On either of those points. If the party members got behind him, he could ride this out.
> 
> As it is, it is the members that are destroying the party, not him.


The membership are the party, aren't they? He doesn't even to be that popular on the Right of the party. He's their Ian Dunkirk Smith.


----------



## JTG (Jun 22, 2021)

Anyway, the right haven't finished cleansing the party of lefties and destroying any CLPs which show signs of independent thought yet.
Starmer will get his just as soon as the bureaucracy have full control of the withered husk of whatever is left.


----------



## andysays (Jun 22, 2021)

chilango said:


> Zarah Sultana?...


She's only been an MP for a couple of years, I think.

One to watch for the future, hopefully, but not seriously in the running if Starmer falls or gets thrown under a bus after B&S.


----------



## magneze (Jun 22, 2021)

Guineveretoo said:


> I am not saying that he is faultless, but he is the elected leader of the Labour Party and we need to get behind him. That is not happening, at least not universally, and there is quite a lot of organising to call a vote of no confidence in him, which is, I think, unhelpful.
> 
> But this is probably not the thread for that kind of detailed discussion...
> 
> Sorry to have flabbergasted you, although I don't really know why. Do you think I am some knowledgeable party activist rather than an anonymous urban poster who doesn't know very much about anything?


Doesn't the leader need to provide something to get behind? I'm not saying it's all on him, but fundamentally he leads the effort to provide 'something' in this area, no?


----------



## brogdale (Jun 22, 2021)

First time in 92 years?


----------



## strung out (Jun 22, 2021)

Trevor Bastard strikes again


----------



## Sasaferrato (Jun 22, 2021)

andysays said:


> Maybe this question would be better discussed on a different thread, but if Labour do decide to replace Starmer after losing B&S, is there really anyone who could do the job better, especially given the generally rightish make up of the PLP?



I have seen his current deputy being touted as a replacement. P;lease, pretty please.


----------



## JTG (Jun 22, 2021)

For comparison, by-elections in 2015-17:

Oldham West & Royton - Lab hold, 62.1% (+7.3)
Sheffield Brightside & Hillsborough - Lab hold, 62.4% (+5.9)
Ogmore - Lab hold, 52.6% (-0.3)
Tooting - Lab hold, 55.9% (+8.7)
Batley & Spen - Lab hold, 85.8% (essentially uncontested so swing fairly meaningless)
Witney - Con hold, Lab 15% (-2.2)
Richmond Park - LD gain, Lab 3.67% (-8.67)

It wasn't until Copeland in February 2017 that Labour had a truly disastrous by-election under Corbyn when a loss of 4.9% of vote share saw them lose the seat to the Tories. Stoke-on-Trent Central on the same day saw a decline in vote share of 2.2% but a relatively easy hold which masked the split in opposition vote between UKIP and the Tories


----------



## Sasaferrato (Jun 22, 2021)

Guineveretoo said:


> I am not saying that he is faultless, but *he is the elected leader of the Labour Party and we need to get behind him*. That is not happening, at least not universally, and there is quite a lot of organising to call a vote of no confidence in him, which is, I think, unhelpful.
> 
> But this is probably not the thread for that kind of detailed discussion...
> 
> Sorry to have flabbergasted you, although I don't really know why. Do you think I am some knowledgeable party activist rather than an anonymous urban poster who doesn't know very much about anything?



Well, as quite a number of members here felt that Corbyn wasn't left enough, I really don't see that happening.


----------



## Guineveretoo (Jun 22, 2021)

Sasaferrato said:


> Well, as quite a number of members here felt that Corbyn wasn't left enough, I really don't see that happening.


I didn't necessarily mean people on here, when I said "we"


----------



## Sasaferrato (Jun 22, 2021)

Guineveretoo said:


> I didn't necessarily mean people on here, when I said "we"



Ah, the regnal 'We'.


----------



## andysays (Jun 22, 2021)

Sasaferrato said:


> Ah, the regnal 'We'.


I assumed from the context that Guineveretoo is a member of the Labour party, and was using "we" to refer to other members of the party.

Nothing wrong with that, unless you're finding fault for the sake of it


----------



## killer b (Jun 22, 2021)

Calling for members of the Labour Party to 'get behind' the leader - especially when there's blood in the water - is as futile an endeavour now as it was when Corbyn was in charge. Barely seems worth even attempting it tbh - this isn't a quarrel between friends who've fallen out over something insignificant: there as substantial, insurmountable differences between the factions. They will never get behind the leader.


----------



## belboid (Jun 22, 2021)

Guineveretoo said:


> Does it not feel like all out war within the party now?
> 
> And, btw, I said very similar stuff when Corbyn was leader - I thought it was wrong to undermine him and to try and oust him, and I voted for him twice.


It feels much less like war than two or five years ago.   It’s definitely being held back by a ‘what else can he do till covid’s over’ attitude.  If he doesn’t sort his shit our then, he’ll be getting it from all dudes at five times the rate.  

the problem with getting behind him now is that there is fuck all to get behind.


----------



## RileyOBlimey (Jun 22, 2021)

Starmer’s history demonstrates he’s empty of conviction and decency. He’s a company man. With Mandelson having apparent influence we all know how corrupting that is. Starmer’s messaging is patronising to the working class and unpalatable for the middle class. They’re clearly rejuvinating Mandelson’s theory of Labour voters have no where else to go. This is aiding the Tory vote which increasingly suggests that’s the ultimate goal.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 22, 2021)

belboid said:


> It feels much less like war than two or five years ago.


Not having physical clp meetings must contribute to that feeling?


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Jun 22, 2021)

Nearly all the Labour Party members that I know who have not already left the party are either a) considering leaving, b) voting Green or summat else in any election that comes along, temporarily as a protest, c) not voting as a similar protest or d) reluctantly toeing the party line. No enthusiasm for Starmer whatsoever. Labour can't carry on without a complete change of leadership, a complete change of the parliamentary party or a complete change of membership. Or all three.


----------



## andysays (Jun 22, 2021)

killer b said:


> Calling for members of the Labour Party to 'get behind' the leader - especially when there's blood in the water - is as futile an endeavour now as it was when Corbyn was in charge. Barely seems worth even attempting it tbh - this isn't a quarrel between friends who've fallen out over something insignificant: there as substantial, insurmountable differences between the factions. They will never get behind the leader.


To be clear, I was commenting solely on the use of the word "we" which sass seemed to have a problem with.

I doesn't mean I agree with the point Guineveretoo was making, because I don't.


----------



## killer b (Jun 22, 2021)

It's ok andy, I didn't think you did. it was already clear.


----------



## andysays (Jun 22, 2021)

OK, with your habit of not actually quoting posts you're replying to, I'm never sure if you're responding to me or just posting after me...


----------



## killer b (Jun 22, 2021)

always assume I'm just posting after you


----------



## andysays (Jun 22, 2021)




----------



## ska invita (Jun 22, 2021)

seems clear to me from this kind of thing








						Keir Starmer set to make major changes to Labour backroom team
					

Several longtime allies including Jenny Chapman to move aside after byelection as leader seeks to shift into campaigning stance




					www.theguardian.com
				



that Starmer isnt planning on going anywhere after losing this byelection
digging in more likely


----------



## magneze (Jun 22, 2021)

Sounds like he's already accepted the loss too.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Jun 22, 2021)

andysays said:


> I assumed from the context that Guineveretoo is a member of the Labour party, and was using "we" to refer to other members of the party.
> 
> Nothing wrong with that, unless you're finding fault for the sake of it



I  was being flippant. As  shown by the


----------



## JTG (Jun 23, 2021)

ska invita said:


> seems clear to me from this kind of thing
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Work still to be done. Can't risk someone else coming in until they've changed the rules for leadership elections


----------



## Leighsw2 (Jun 24, 2021)

The decision today to bring back Blair's ex-head of comms (and Mandelson protege) very clearly indicates the direction of travel for Starmer-Labour following next week's bye-election.


----------



## ska invita (Jun 24, 2021)

Leighsw2 said:


> The decision today to bring back Blair's ex-head of comms (and Mandelson protege) very clearly indicates the direction of travel.,....


.... Head first into the dustbin of history.


----------



## PR1Berske (Jun 24, 2021)




----------



## ska invita (Jun 24, 2021)

PR1Berske said:


>



Crashes on my phone, what happened please?


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jun 25, 2021)

Galloway supporting vermin spewing their hate-filled homophobic bigotry




(edit, not sure if they are actually Galloway supporters. Apparently this is Shakeel Afsar - one of those bigoted cunt parents from Brum who launched that fascist hate campaign against a school)


----------



## belboid (Jun 25, 2021)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Galloway supporting vermin spewing their hate-filled homophobic bigotry



he was questioned about this type of behaviour on C4 news yesterday.  |He told the reporter to get off his bus.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 25, 2021)

belboid said:


> he was questioned about this type of behaviour on C4 news yesterday.  |He told the reporter to get off his bus.


Liz Bates face kind of spoke for many, I feel...


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jun 25, 2021)

Probably not affiliated with Galloway but I bet Galloway won’t condemn this, just like he and RESPECT refused to condemn anti-Semitic abuse in the Bethnal Green election.


----------



## PR1Berske (Jun 25, 2021)

Yes, that's the thing. You can create these groups - Respect, Workers GB - and then plausibly deny that any grouplets are associatrice with you. Clever.


----------



## PR1Berske (Jun 25, 2021)

"Associatrice" is a new word, thanks autocorrect.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jun 25, 2021)

I don’t know whether to laugh or cry tbh


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jun 25, 2021)

As predicted, they disassociate but do not criticise


----------



## PR1Berske (Jun 25, 2021)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Galloway supporting vermin spewing their hate-filled homophobic bigotry
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jun 25, 2021)

PR1Berske said:


>




Yeah he's a real fascist piece of shit.


----------



## tim (Jun 26, 2021)

I have no idea who Joe Media are but they were filming Galloway and trying to get an interview from Leadbeatter at the time. It's 7 minutes long so gives a bit more context than the others Asfar rather than being a Galloway team player comes across a publicity-seeking shit on a day trip to Batley. Amusing to see Galloway claiming that he steers clear of confrontation and  Leadbeatter claiming she can't speak to journalists without Dan's authorisation. Naz Shah, who beat Galloway in Bradford, was also present and came out of it better than anyone else. Most of those chasing Leadbeatter were, of course, journalists.


----------



## tony.c (Jun 26, 2021)

Will the Hancock affair improve Labour's chances on Thursday?


----------



## Dogsauce (Jun 26, 2021)

tony.c said:


> Will the Hancock affair improve Labour's chances on Thursday?


Labour will be too clumsy and unsure of themselves to make any capital out of it. Expect a mild rebuke from Kieth followed by a bit of flagshagging because the proles love that shit.


----------



## steveseagull (Jun 26, 2021)

If Labour actually win on Friday, Keith will be doing a speech telling the voters they are awful people for voting for labour because Labour are so awful.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Jun 26, 2021)

tony.c said:


> Will the Hancock affair improve Labour's chances on Thursday?


Ofcourse not


----------



## kenny g (Jun 26, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Not having physical clp meetings must contribute to that feeling?


Yep. The attraction of an evening zooming in after a day of slog is minimal.


----------



## MickiQ (Jun 26, 2021)

tony.c said:


> Will the Hancock affair improve Labour's chances on Thursday?


Can't imagine it will. Hancock has got away with blatant corruption in awarding NHS contracts this past 18 months this is nothing compared to that


----------



## kenny g (Jun 26, 2021)

I'm starting to expect labour will come a low third.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 26, 2021)

kenny g said:


> I'm starting to expect labour will come a low third.


Progress; better than fourth in Amersham!


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jun 26, 2021)

tim said:


> I have no idea who Joe Media are but they were filming Galloway and trying to get an interview from Leadbeatter at the time. It's 7 minutes long so gives a bit more context than the others Asfar rather than being a Galloway team player comes across a publicity-seeking shit on a day trip to Batley. Amusing to see Galloway claiming that he steers clear of confrontation and  Leadbeatter claiming she can't speak to journalists without Dan's authorisation. Naz Shah, who beat Galloway in Bradford, was also present and came out of it better than anyone else. Most of those chasing Leadbeatter were, of course, journalists.




Notice that Galloway does not distance himself from the content of Afsar’s ranting, merely the form it took. And indeed, he couldn’t do otherwise. At around the same time the incident took place his party released a video of him engaging in exactly the same anti-LGBT hysteria as Afsar.


----------



## tim (Jun 26, 2021)

kenny g said:


> I'm starting to expect labour will come a low third.


Or that Galloway will take many votes that would otherwise have gone Tory, and as a result it will be a Labour victory and claimed as a vote of confidence in Starmer's leadership.


----------



## kenny g (Jun 26, 2021)

tim said:


> Or that Galloway will take many votes that would otherwise have gone Tory, and as a result it will be a Labour victory and claimed as a vote of confidence in Starmer's leadership.


Possible but I suspect it will be Tory /Galloway neck and neck followed by labour a third or fourth. Labour vote may also be eaten by Lib Dems.


----------



## Diamond (Jun 26, 2021)

The New Statesmen podcast yesterday was pretty interesting on this.

They predict a terrible result and implied that the Labour party leadership may have written the seat off anyway as a sign of which way they are taking things.

They were especially good on Kim Leadbetter's selection and why that is seen as a massive own goal by some.  It's the idea that Labour have parachuted in a PR stunt of a candidate (albeit well meaning), displacing better qualified local candidates and, to a certain extent, trying to exert an emotional play on the vote that is not really appropriate - the fact that someone's family member was violently murdered says nothing about them as a politician.


----------



## Diamond (Jun 26, 2021)

It's a sort of creeping sentimentalism that seems to undermine the necessary spirit of competition.


----------



## andysays (Jun 26, 2021)

tim said:


> Or that Galloway will take many votes that would otherwise have gone Tory, and as a result it will be a Labour victory and claimed as a vote of confidence in Starmer's leadership.


It seems likely to me that Galloway will  take more potentially Labour votes than potentially Tory ones, if that makes sense.


----------



## tim (Jun 26, 2021)

kenny g said:


> Possible but I suspect it will be Tory /Galloway neck and neck followed by labour a third or fourth. Labour vote may also be eaten by Lib Dems.


It was a Tory seat until 1997, and aside from the 2016 election where the Tories and Liberals didn't stand, mostly on the margins of marginality: not really much of a Labour "Heartland" seat.

Batley and Spen (UK Parliament constituency) - Wikipedia


----------



## tim (Jun 26, 2021)

andysays said:


> It seems likely to me that Galloway will  take more potentially Labour votes than potentially Tory ones, if that makes sense.


Yes, but Labour votes that would have otherwise gone Tory.


----------



## killer b (Jun 26, 2021)

What makes you think Galloway is going to do much better than the 6% he's polling?


----------



## lazythursday (Jun 26, 2021)

tim said:


> It was a Tory seat until 1997, and aside from the 2016 election where the Tories and Liberals didn't stand, mostly on the margins of marginality: not really much of a Labour "Heartland" seat.
> 
> Batley and Spen (UK Parliament constituency) - Wikipedia


Living a couple of constituencies away, my perspective is that it feels fairly typical of a large swath of Labour seats around former mill towns on the edge of northern conurbations - might be a bit more marginal than others but if these sorts of seats with a large Asian population start to go Labour really is fucked. Also the boundaries changed significantly in 1997 I believe.


----------



## hitmouse (Jun 26, 2021)

Guineveretoo said:


> I don't agree. On either of those points. If the party members got behind him, he could ride this out.
> 
> As it is, it is the members that are destroying the party, not him.


Don't make me post that Brecht poem ffs!


ska invita said:


> Crashes on my phone, what happened please?


That's an excellent show of taste on your phone's part, I think you should probably thank it.


Jeff Robinson said:


> I don’t know whether to laugh or cry tbh



Freedom of speech! Except for speech about anal sex or "chest feeding".


tim said:


> It's 7 minutes long so gives a bit more context than the others Asfar rather than being a Galloway team player comes across a publicity-seeking shit on a day trip to Batley.


I, for one, am shocked and appalled that some publicity-seeking shit with no connection to the place would be running around making a dick of himself when George Galloway is trying to campaign.


----------



## glitch hiker (Jun 26, 2021)

Galloways' comments to Owen Jones regarding BLM show he's happy to allow BLM to be misrepresented as well


----------



## hitmouse (Jun 26, 2021)

Checked to see how Tommy Robinson's visit to Batley is going and it appears he's bottled it:




> *Batley 26/06/2021 Update*
> Due to the level of opposition , and the response from the community, Tommy Robinson has done his best Cadburys impression and flaked out.
> As for "For Britain" ....Anne Marie has been advised by their own security to not attempt to march or speak in Batley town centre.
> I guess the Football Lads Against Fascism and Millitant  Anti Fascist coalition , along side our Muslim Community is far too much for the outsiders to handle.
> ...


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 26, 2021)

If anyone thinks that the Galloway entourage , complete with Toby Young and Lawrence Fox on this occasion, are walking around being showered with rose petals by the local electorate then check the security out here


----------



## Diamond (Jun 26, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> If anyone thinks that the Galloway entourage , complete with Toby Young and Lawrence Fox on this occasion, are walking around being showered with rose petals by the local electorate then check the security out here
> View attachment 275374



What a dreadful suit.


----------



## LDC (Jun 26, 2021)

Diamond said:


> What a dreadful suit.



Subpar Peaky Blinders wannabe look.


----------



## kenny g (Jun 26, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Subpar Peaky Blinders wannabe look.


Interesting hand tats on the man in the whistle.


----------



## rekil (Jun 26, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> If anyone thinks that the Galloway entourage , complete with Toby Young and Lawrence Fox on this occasion, are walking around being showered with rose petals by the local electorate then check the security out here


Walkie talkie and all. I bet galloway has a ludicrous codename. Saladin or something. 

Only 9k in his tragic gofundme begging bowl. If that's any indication, surely he won't do much better than he did in west bromwich.


----------



## glitch hiker (Jun 26, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> If anyone thinks that the Galloway entourage , complete with Toby Young and Lawrence Fox on this occasion, are walking around being showered with rose petals by the local electorate then check the security out here
> View attachment 275374


Wait, that's a real picture? He's allying himself with those two?

FFS, why am I not surprised. He's the guy gladhanding fascist enabler in chief, Steve Bannon.

Galloway is utter scum


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 26, 2021)

rekil said:


> Walkie talkie and all. I bet galloway has a ludicrous codename. Saladin or something.
> 
> Only 9k in his tragic gofundme begging bowl. If that's any indication, surely he won't do much better than he did in west bromwich.


It’s a toxic mixture in that constituency which he will exploit to the fullest . I’m sceptic that he’s a challenger but he will get some votes . Whatever he gets it’s not part of a pro working class fight back it’s exploiting tensions .


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 26, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> Wait, that's a real picture? He's allying himself with those two?
> 
> FFS, why am I not surprised. He's the guy gladhanding fascist enabler in chief, Steve Bannon.
> 
> Galloway is utter scum


Unfortunately those two have been most prominent in defending the teacher and two others at the school , who some reports say had to go into hiding . Not sure about the hiding but sure about their support .


----------



## platinumsage (Jun 26, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> Galloway is utter scum



Aaron Bastani has been busy tying his colours to his mast.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jun 26, 2021)

hang on a minute

i know his politics are a bit flexible, but he's going for the muslim vote and the far right vote at the same time?


----------



## Elpenor (Jun 26, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> hang on a minute
> 
> i know his politics are a bit flexible, but he's going for the muslim vote and the far right vote at the same time?


Presumably the message is:

“Gays are bad” to the Muslim demographics

and 

“Gays and Muslims are both bad” to the far right vote.


----------



## PR1Berske (Jun 26, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> If anyone thinks that the Galloway entourage , complete with Toby Young and Lawrence Fox on this occasion, are walking around being showered with rose petals by the local electorate then check the security out here
> View attachment 275374



I have watched many amounts of pornographic material and I swear everyone in this picture has an adult entertainment doppelganger, especially the guy on the right in Asos shoes and the Burton suit.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 26, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> hang on a minute
> 
> i know his politics are a bit flexible, but he's going for the muslim vote and the far right vote at the same time?


Think it’s a bit more complex than that tbh . He ran the same campaign on ‘traditional family values ‘ in Scotland and he juggles the  the ‘free speech stuff  with parental rights . Any port in a storm for Galloway , Best summed up with ‘Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.’


----------



## tim (Jun 26, 2021)

killer b said:


> What makes you think Galloway is going to do much better than the 6% he's polling?


The 6% was some days ago and he's been raising his profile since then. He is a charismatic and effective campaigner and managed to pull off unexpected election wins on two previous occasions. If you look back at the threads here on the Bethnal Green and Bow election in 2005 and the Bradford West election lots of us assumed that he wouldn't do well and he did, despite being an utter shit.


----------



## kenny g (Jun 26, 2021)

tim said:


> The 6% was some days ago and he's been raising his profile since then. He is a charismatic and effective campaigner and managed to pull off unexpected election wins on two previous occasions. If you look back at the threads here on the Bethnal Green and Bow election in 2005 and the Bradford West election lots of us assumed that he wouldn't do well and he did, despite being an utter shit.


He reminds me of the soothsayer in asterix and the soothsayer. Goes into a community, identifies divisions, amplifies them and then makes himself appear as on the side of everyone.









						Asterix and The Soothsayer
					

One dark and stormy night, a sinister visitor arrives in the little Gaulish village. Prolix, who claims too be a soothsayer, prophesies that when the storm is over the weather will improve. And it does! Now the credulous villagers believe every word he says, but Asterix has his suspicions of the...



					books.google.com


----------



## glitch hiker (Jun 26, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> Aaron Bastani has been busy tying his colours to his mast.


Are you sure? I can't see that's the impression I've gotten.


----------



## kenny g (Jun 26, 2021)

Hadn't really appreciated how supportive of the cpgb-ml Galloway is.


----------



## Dogsauce (Jun 26, 2021)

How long until Galloway takes the Spiked! gig?


----------



## belboid (Jun 26, 2021)

Dogsauce said:


> How long until Galloway takes the Spiked! gig?


-2 days









						‘Labour has ignored its voters – it is now paying the price’
					

George Galloway on why he is standing in the Batley and Spen by-election.




					www.spiked-online.com


----------



## tim (Jun 26, 2021)

Dogsauce said:


> How long until Galloway takes the Spiked! gig?


Comrades in arms

https://www.spiked-online.com/2021/06/24/labour-has-ignored-its-voters-it-is-now-paying-the-price/


----------



## kenny g (Jun 26, 2021)

. 

John Sweeney c bombs him..


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Jun 26, 2021)

kenny g said:


> .
> 
> John Sweeney c bombs him..



The thing is though, whoever wins is gonna be a cunt. And whoever loses.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jun 26, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> The thing is though, whoever wins is gonna be a cunt. And whoever loses.



The losers are and will be the citizens of Batley & Spen. The by-election is a toxic cesspit of shit politics and opportunist wankers.

The irony is that there is a massive space for pro-working class politics in places like that. But, no organisations left that possess them.


----------



## hitmouse (Jun 26, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Unfortunately those two have been most prominent in defending the teacher and two others at the school , who some reports say had to go into hiding . Not sure about the hiding but sure about their support .


I am a bit confused about what line Galloway's taking with all that stuff - I would have thought he'd be going for "defender of Muslim families oppressed by the islamophobic school system", and assumed his anti-sex-education stuff was a dogwhistle in that direction - "look, I want to stop bad stuff from getting taught in schools" - , but that seems a bit incompatible with palling around with Fox & co? Has he said anything directly about it?


PR1Berske said:


> I have watched many amounts of pornographic material and I swear everyone in this picture has an adult entertainment doppelganger, especially the guy on the right in Asos shoes and the Burton suit.


I was going to say "remember the BNP bouncy castle satanist porno guy, that was a happier simpler time", but I've just looked him up and I think he was actually just a BNP bouncy castle satanist escort guy, not sure he ever worked in porn, so sorry for any derail there.


kenny g said:


> Hadn't really appreciated how supportive of the cpgb-ml Galloway is.


Other way around, surely - I don't think Galloway is actually supportive of anyone other than Galloway, but sure he's happy if the Cbeebies M-L want to reprise the old SWP/Respect role?


----------



## josef1878 2.0 (Jun 26, 2021)

killer b said:


> Burnham would win any marginal seat in greater Manchester certainly, and probably anywhere in the North West. He wouldn't need a safe one.


He could probably go back to his old Leigh seat, currently Tory for the first time since god knows when. He would beat the bellend who got elected who likes standing on tables in pubs waving his knob around while being filmed.


----------



## kebabking (Jun 27, 2021)

No dog-whistling here, no sir-ee....


----------



## MickiQ (Jun 27, 2021)

kebabking said:


> View attachment 275483
> No dog-whistling here, no sir-ee....


Every mutt within a 100 mile radius was howling when he wrote that


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jun 27, 2021)

Got a bit of sick in my mouth after reading that.


----------



## killer b (Jun 27, 2021)

kebabking said:


> View attachment 275483
> No dog-whistling here, no sir-ee....


Its a naked and opportunistic appeal to the Muslim vote - for whom the Israel/Palestine conflict is understandably a significant motivating factor - but I'm missing the dog whistle. Where is it?


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 27, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Got a bit of sick in my mouth after reading that.


----------



## killer b (Jun 27, 2021)

Oh _that_ dog whistle


----------



## TopCat (Jun 27, 2021)

tim said:


> Or that Galloway will take many votes that would otherwise have gone Tory, and as a result it will be a Labour victory and claimed as a vote of confidence in Starmer's leadership.


This is less likely than me growing a longer Willy.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 27, 2021)

Is he allowed/supposed to be calling himself The Honorable?


----------



## chilango (Jun 27, 2021)

kebabking said:


> View attachment 275483
> No dog-whistling here, no sir-ee....


Is that legit?

It's so fucking blatant if I didn't know better I'd assume it was a smear!


----------



## William of Walworth (Jun 27, 2021)

From that Spiked interview with Galloway, linked to above :




			
				Galloway said:
			
		

> I think Labour will come third and we will be second or first. It’s us versus the Tories. *I call on Labour to stand down and stop splitting the vote*.



Cheeky fucker!


----------



## chilango (Jun 27, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> The losers are and will be the citizens of Batley & Spen. The by-election is a toxic cesspit of shit politics and opportunist wankers.
> 
> The irony is that there is a massive space for pro-working class politics in places like that. But, no organisations left that possess them.



Problem is, there's no agreement about what is meant by working-class anymore, nevermind what politics would be "pro" it.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 27, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> Is he allowed/supposed to be calling himself The Honorable?


Everyone is  entitled to a little embellishment


----------



## William of Walworth (Jun 27, 2021)

Also, what does that 'Gaya tri Gall oway' tag mean?? 
(Does it mean Honourable??  )


----------



## chilango (Jun 27, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> Is he allowed/supposed to be calling himself The Honorable?


Maybe The "Hon." isn't short for honourable here?


----------



## chilango (Jun 27, 2021)

William of Walworth said:


> Also, what does that 'Gaya tri Gall oway' tag mean??
> (Does it mean Honourable??  )


That's his (4th) wife.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 27, 2021)

chilango said:


> Problem is, there's no agreement about what is meant by working-class anymore, nevermind what politics would be "pro" it.


when did this begin/start?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jun 27, 2021)

chilango said:


> Problem is, there's no agreement about what is meant by working-class anymore, nevermind what politics would be "pro" it.



I think we can safely set aside those who write entire communities off as ‘nativists’, ‘thinkers’ about post work utopias and anyone engaged in work to build ‘socialism without the working class’.

Have we collapsed to the point that we can no longer even envisage a collective form of politics built around a vision for the future of the community that the community itself has ownership of, of a radical economic offer, a commitment to community organising and building people power and a determination to argue for those politics?


----------



## chilango (Jun 27, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Have we collapsed to the point that we can no longer even envisage a collective form of politics built around a vision for the future of the community that the community itself has ownership of, of a radical economic offer, a commitment to community organising and building people power and a determination to argue for those politics?



It certainly looks that way.

(I certainly don't think it's impossible though.)


----------



## hitmouse (Jun 27, 2021)

kebabking said:


> View attachment 275483
> No dog-whistling here, no sir-ee....


This is the bit I'm still stuck on - that sounds like more or less the line I'd expect from Galloway, but I still can't square it with the palling around with Toby Young and Lawrence Fox. Like, if Young and Fox are siding with the teacher, then surely this goes entirely against everything they're saying?


The39thStep said:


> View attachment 275487


I like how the wording there sounds like he's pissed off about the SNP's lack of sex education. "Here's what the SNP MSM won't tell you about rimming!"


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 27, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> This is the bit I'm still stuck on - that sounds like more or less the line I'd expect from Galloway, but I still can't square it with the palling around with Toby Young and Lawrence Fox. Like, if Young and Fox are siding with the teacher, then surely this goes entirely against everything they're saying?
> 
> I like how the wording there sounds like he's pissed off about the SNP's lack of sex education. "Here's what the SNP MSM won't tell you about rimming!"


Yes, its definitely the juggling of a charlatan.


----------



## chilango (Jun 27, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> when did this begin/start?



1997.
1989.
1979.
1968.
1945.
1939.
1917.


Pick a date. You could make an argument for any of them.

For me, the 80s are key. The systematic destruction of the material basis of swathes of w/c communities coupled with an economic re-orientation to financial jobs in the SE ....


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 27, 2021)

chilango said:


> 1997.
> 1989.
> 1979.
> 1968.
> ...


I'm not the one making the argument tbh. However, I'm a bit confused that you've listed dates going back over a hundred years when originally you said ' Problem is, there's no agreement about what is meant by working-class *anymore, *nevermind what politics would be "pro" it.' So I'm wondering when the consensus ended.


----------



## chilango (Jun 27, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> I'm not the one making the argument tbh. However, I'm a bit confused that you've listed dates going back over a hundred years when originally you said ' Problem is, there's no agreement about what is meant by working-class *anymore, *nevermind what politics would be "pro" it.' So I'm wondering when the consensus ended.



Was there ever such a consensus? I don't know. What is clear is that we are further from that consensus now than I can ever recall before. 

Is anybody identifying (nevermind articulating) the shared material interests of a 20something graduate renting in London and a 60something non-graduate retired home-owner in the North?

Even describing the tension in this way widens it.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 27, 2021)

chilango said:


> Was there ever such a consensus? I don't know. What is clear is that we are further from that consensus now than I can ever recall before.
> 
> Is anybody identifying (nevermind articulating) the shared material interests of a 20something graduate renting in London and a 60something non-graduate retired home-owner in the North?
> 
> Even describing the tension in this way widens it.


Without wanting to go to a case by case vetted by panel   of experts situation.  it's a contested area.  Much like politics within the working classitself. Academics have never agreed on  who or what is working class , and as capitalism changes job roles change . Even the concept of affluent workers isn't new. Surveys that rely on self identification  show that the majority of people still view themselves as working class.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jun 27, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> View attachment 275487



I wonder how many hours every day Galloway and his NazBol allies think angrily about anal sex?


----------



## tim (Jun 27, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> Is he allowed/supposed to be calling himself The Honorable?


I can't imagine that there's a law against self-identifying as Honourable.


----------



## Cerv (Jun 27, 2021)

in his case, it could be considered false advertising


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jun 27, 2021)

tim said:


> I can't imagine that there's a law against self-identifying as Honourable.



dunno really

isn't 'the honourable [name] ' a title for younger sons of dukes and that sort of thing?

doesn't quite seem his territory.

whether it's technically an offence to use a title that hasn't been signed off by HM, i'm not sure.   duke ellington, lord tanamo, prince buster and others seemed to get away with it...



Cerv said:


> in his case, it could be considered false advertising



MPs are either the 'honourable member for [constituency] or the 'right honourable...' and it's false advertising for most of the buggers


----------



## killer b (Jun 27, 2021)

Of all the things to lay into Galloway for, whether he has the right to call himself some made up honorific isn't one. Who gives a shit?


----------



## TopCat (Jun 27, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> dunno really
> 
> isn't 'the honourable [name] ' a title for younger sons of dukes and that sort of thing?
> 
> ...


I was in court with a certain Lord Sefton. The magistrate did a double take at this huge Jamaican bloke but it was his name.


----------



## TopCat (Jun 27, 2021)

Jeff Robinson said:


> I wonder how many hours every day Galloway and his NazBol allies think angrily about anal sex?


Bananas and Nutella.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jun 27, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I was in court with a certain Lord Sefton. The magistrate did a double take at this huge Jamaican bloke but it was his name.





Now you mention it, I am aware of someone (no longer with us) who had Prince as his first name

And of a (possible) distant relative who had Major as his first name, which must have caused some confusion when he got called up (and never moved from the rank of Private) in the 1914 war...


----------



## kenny g (Jun 27, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> Now you mention it, I am aware of someone (no longer with us) who had Prince as his first name
> 
> And of a (possible) distant relative who had Major as his first name, which must have caused some confusion when he got called up (and never moved from the rank of Private) in the 1914 war...


I guess he would have been Private Major whereas a Mr Private who became a Major would be a Major Private which would presumably cause problems in the world of "call me Hon" Galloway.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jun 27, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Without wanting to go to a case by case vetted by panel   of experts situation.  it's a contested area.  Much like politics within the working classitself. Academics have never agreed on  who or what is working class , and as capitalism changes job roles change . Even the concept of affluent workers isn't new. Surveys that rely on self identification  show that the majority of people still view themselves as working class.



We also need to bin off the false binary that suggests everyone in London is a young graduate in precarious work and everyone ‘up north’ is a bigoted ex-coal miner who has paid his mortgage off. Batley is living proof that these communities are multi generational and multi ethnic. If some on the left ever felt like visiting and learning about these places they’d note that many 'traditional' working-class communities are far more multicultural and cosmopolitan than the commentariat (who don’t live there and don’t know much about it) insist.


----------



## belboid (Jun 27, 2021)

tim said:


> I can't imagine that there's a law against self-identifying as Honourable.


It is actually against HoC protocol.  Even serving members shouldn't use it in writing, its only for referring to one another in the house itself.


----------



## belboid (Jun 27, 2021)

Some fam went campaigning in B&S yesterday.  Lower support for GG than when they did it two weeks ago, tho his campaigners are still out in force. Asian women do not seem particularly keen on him, Nas Shah has been in the area a lot telling everyone what a shit he is, though quite a few of his supporters know and dont care.  They dont particularly want him as MP but do want to fuck Labour off.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Jun 27, 2021)

kebabking said:


> View attachment 275483
> No dog-whistling here, no sir-ee....


When was Galloway a Privy Councillor?

IIRC only those who have been are entitled to 'Honourable'.

Edit: Rt Honourable.


----------



## PR1Berske (Jun 27, 2021)




----------



## belboid (Jun 27, 2021)

Sasaferrato said:


> When was Galloway a Privy Councillor?
> 
> IIRC only those who have been are entitled to 'Honourable'.


no, thats Right Honourable


----------



## Sasaferrato (Jun 27, 2021)

belboid said:


> no, thats Right Honourable


Correct. I have edited.

The 'honourable' is bullshit then, typical of Galloway.


----------



## DJWrongspeed (Jun 27, 2021)

Dogsauce said:


> Labour will be too clumsy and unsure of themselves to make any capital out of it. Expect a mild rebuke from Kieth followed by a bit of flagshagging because the proles love that shit.


I'm not sure, if the mood is of an angry electorate seeing Hancock's hypocrisy and Bojo's lack of action  it could have an effect. Galloway is more a problem for Labour.


----------



## PR1Berske (Jun 27, 2021)




----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jun 27, 2021)

belboid said:


> Asian women do not seem particularly keen on him



I'm not surprised. He's got a very 'some of my best friends are rapists' energy.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jun 27, 2021)

PR1Berske said:


>



That's interesting. Wonder who put those through.


----------



## kenny g (Jun 27, 2021)




----------



## tim (Jun 27, 2021)

PR1Berske said:


>



Not much point in launching a disinformation campaign if even the young lad from GBNewts can rumble you.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jun 27, 2021)

FridgeMagnet said:


> That's interesting. Wonder who put those through.



There's more potential suspects than a game of Cluedo.


----------



## kenny g (Jun 27, 2021)

FridgeMagnet said:


> That's interesting. Wonder who put those through.


I reckon Hon Colonel Mustard.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 27, 2021)

PR1Berske said:


>



George is going to have Paul’s coke stash robbed


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jun 27, 2021)

kenny g said:


> I reckon Hon Colonel Mustard.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jun 27, 2021)

Sasaferrato said:


> Correct. I have edited.
> 
> The 'honourable' is bullshit then, typical of Galloway.



I think giving someone the right to be called 'honourable' solely on account of who their dad was is bullshit but that's just me.


----------



## PR1Berske (Jun 27, 2021)

The good people of Batley and the Spenborough Valley really should not be subjected to this level of shit politics.


----------



## chilango (Jun 27, 2021)

Saw Paul Mason was trending on Twitter. Had a quick look. Wish I hadn't.

Ugly stuff and shit politics on all sides.


----------



## kenny g (Jun 27, 2021)

Jeff Robinson said:


> View attachment 275628
> 
> View attachment 275623


Sure he would appreciate that on his tongue with his Nutella and banana sandwiches.


----------



## PR1Berske (Jun 27, 2021)

chilango said:


> Saw Paul Mason was trending on Twitter. Had a quick look. Wish I hadn't.
> 
> Ugly stuff and shit politics on all sides.


I hope that no byelection lands here for some time. They don't deserve this.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jun 27, 2021)

Novara media's Darren Bacardi seems to be fan-girling Gallowfash under the pretence of 'listening tO the voTERs'. Strange times.


----------



## tim (Jun 27, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> George is going to have Paul’s coke stash robbed


Galloway is notoriously litigious and usually wins. The good news for Paul  Mason is that liberated from the obligations of his current job, Sir Keith Starmer Q.C. will be free to accept the defence brief.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jun 27, 2021)

> Rowan, however, has had enough. Despite her lifelong affiliation to (Labour), she has gradually grown detached from it over the years, and for the first time in her life she will vote Conservative... she does not think the party represents working-class people. “They’re all lawyers or doctors,” she says. “Keir Starmer – he was a lawyer, wasn’t it? He’s not Harold Wilson, is he?”











						‘They’re all lawyers’: Labour voters look elsewhere in Batley byelection
					

Some blame local problems on Labour-led council and say party does not represent working class




					www.theguardian.com
				




I really don't get it, Labour is full of lawyers and doctors who don't represent workers so instead vote for... the party of hedge funders and venture capitalists? How is such mangled, incoherent thinking possible?


----------



## tim (Jun 27, 2021)

Jeff Robinson said:


> ‘They’re all lawyers’: Labour voters look elsewhere in Batley byelection
> 
> 
> Some blame local problems on Labour-led council and say party does not represent working class
> ...


Harold Wilson was an Oxford don before he became an MP., Rowan is clearly lamenting the low academic standards of the current Labour leadership.


----------



## tim (Jun 27, 2021)

PR1Berske said:


>



Birds of a feather shit together


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jun 27, 2021)

This by-election is really a microcosm of everything shit about UK politics isn't it?


----------



## magneze (Jun 27, 2021)

It really is "none of the above" here isn't it.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jun 27, 2021)

Jeff Robinson said:


> I really don't get it, Labour is full of lawyers and doctors who don't represent workers so instead vote for... the party of hedge funders and venture capitalists? How is such mangled, incoherent thinking possible?


They’ve voted for the lawyers and doctors all their lives and they’ve delivered next to fuck all. This isn’t a pro Tory rebellion by the working class, it’s an anti labour rebellion: Scotland, the deindustrialised towns of the north, Midlands and Wales and now places like Batley. All gone. None coming back soon


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jun 27, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> They’ve voted for the lawyers and doctors all their lives and they’ve delivered next to fuck all. This isn’t a pro Tory rebellion by the working class, it’s an anti labour rebellion: Scotland, the deindustrialised towns of the north, Midlands and Wales and now places like Batley. All gone. None coming back soon



Loads of former Labour voters are voting Tory, including the person I quoted.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jun 27, 2021)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Loads of former Labour voters are voting Tory, including the person I quoted.



The point is they aren’t voting Labour. Some will vote for the repellent Galloway, some will vote Tory and more won’t bother at all. All of the stuff I’m reading seems to suggest a popular impulse to give labour a kicking


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jun 27, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> The point is they aren’t voting Labour. Some will vote for the repellent Galloway, some will vote Tory and more won’t bother at all. All of the stuff I’m reading seems to suggest a popular impulse to give labour a kicking



Giving Labour a kicking for not being pro-working class enough by voting Tory remains bizarre.


----------



## tim (Jun 27, 2021)

Jeff Robinson said:


> This by-election is really a microcosm of everything shit about UK politics isn't it?


Yes, but don't you love that thread of continuity that has run through the British electoral process for centuries


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jun 27, 2021)

tim said:


> Yes, but don't you love that thread of continuity that has run through the British electoral process for centuries



I miss the good ol' days of whatever the fuck is happening in the first picture.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jun 27, 2021)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Giving Labour a kicking for not being pro-working class enough by voting Tory remains bizarre.


There are specific factors - like Brexit - that partly explain it. It’s also fair to say that despite the Tory pitch to the ‘red wall’ that the votes feel both lent and contingent. But the main story is the rapid speeding up of the death of the Labour Party in areas it has come to take for granted


----------



## tim (Jun 27, 2021)

Jeff Robinson said:


> I miss the good ol' days of whatever the fuck is happening in the first picture.


The first picture is of the victorious Tory candidate being carried through the town by his supporters and the concomitant reaction of the supporters of his opponents. 

Humours of an Election - Wikipedia


----------



## PR1Berske (Jun 27, 2021)

Jeff Robinson said:


> This by-election is really a microcosm of everything shit about UK politics isn't it?


Really is. It's become a concentrated theatrical site for all extremes to parade themselves and that just looks ugly from start to finish


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 27, 2021)

Galloway has a future in panto


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jun 27, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> Galloway has a future in panto



oh no he doesn't


----------



## kenny g (Jun 27, 2021)

tim said:


> The first picture is of the victorious Tory candidate being carried through the town by his supporters and the concomitant reaction of the supporters of his opponents.
> 
> Humours of an Election - Wikipedia


Thanks for that. Didn't know about the calendar changes of 1751 previously.


----------



## JTG (Jun 27, 2021)

tim said:


> The first picture is of the victorious Tory candidate being carried through the town by his supporters and the concomitant reaction of the supporters of his opponents.
> 
> Humours of an Election - Wikipedia


They still do that in Bridgwater, or at least did until relatively recently. I certainly remember Tom King being given a chair through the town whenever he was reelected


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jun 27, 2021)

labourlist reporting that labour activist/s attacked today









						Violence and “dirty tricks” in Batley and Spen by-election campaign – LabourList
					

The Batley and Spen by-election campaign has turned violent this weekend, with at least one Labour activist being egged and punched in the head by…




					labourlist.org


----------



## two sheds (Jun 28, 2021)

Have we had this? 



fuck me mealy mouthed tory wannabe


----------



## brogdale (Jun 28, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Have we had this?
> 
> 
> 
> fuck me mealy mouthed tory wannabe



‘Kinnel


----------



## Calamity1971 (Jun 28, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Have we had this?
> 
> 
> 
> fuck me mealy mouthed tory wannabe



I hope those sirens are coming to take the knacker away.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 28, 2021)

"magic money tree" is like "double whammy" only tories say these things


----------



## brogdale (Jun 28, 2021)

two sheds said:


> "magic money tree" is like "double whammy" only tories say these things


Under spaffer, even they don’t use that anymore


----------



## kenny g (Jun 28, 2021)

She is channelling one of the most ineffectual and disastrous Tory PM's of the past one hundred years in her response. Asked a simple question her response is to quote a Tory. I am surprised she didn't start accusing OJ  of shouting at her.


----------



## andysays (Jun 28, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> They’ve voted for the lawyers and doctors all their lives and they’ve delivered next to fuck all. This isn’t a pro Tory rebellion by the working class, it’s an anti labour rebellion: Scotland, the deindustrialised towns of the north, Midlands and Wales and now places like Batley. All gone. None coming back soon


I'm not entirely convinced by this. 

It's one thing to say "I've voted Labour forever, but I'm not voting for them again". 

It's something else to say "I'm going to vote Tory". That can't be explained simply by the fact that Labour are shit.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Jun 28, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Have we had this?
> 
> 
> 
> fuck me mealy mouthed tory wannabe



Can't say I'm surprised. Just another red tory, which all Labour MP's and councillors turn out to be anyway.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 28, 2021)

n


andysays said:


> I'm not entirely convinced by this.
> 
> It's one thing to say "I've voted Labour forever, but I'm not voting for them again".
> 
> It's something else to say "I'm going to vote Tory". That can't be explained simply by the fact that Labour are shit.


Yeah, I don't think it is entirely plausible to cast this, and recent by-election results and voting patterns as being a binary "anti-Labour" but not "pro-Tory". The psephological evidence is there; growing numbers of our class are voting for the tories.


----------



## emanymton (Jun 28, 2021)

andysays said:


> I'm not entirely convinced by this.
> 
> It's one thing to say "I've voted Labour forever, but I'm not voting for them again".
> 
> It's something else to say "I'm going to vote Tory". That can't be explained simply by the fact that Labour are shit.


I think it is just being used as a excuse to vote tory by some. 

But maybe people are just so think they think Johnson is the true voice of the working class and I don't want to accept it.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 28, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> hang on a minute
> 
> i know his politics are a bit flexible, but he's going for the muslim vote and the far right vote at the same time?



A novel, although not unpredictable, intersectional positioning.


----------



## chilango (Jun 28, 2021)

I think it'd be worth unpicking these sort of Tory votes to see how much of the shift is coming from w/c Labour voters voting Tory.  And how much it isn't.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jun 28, 2021)

chilango said:


> I think it'd be worth unpicking these sort of Tory votes to see how much of the shift is coming from w/c Labour voters voting Tory.  And how much it isn't.



There is undoubtedly a need for more work to be done on this. Let’s face it, until now there hasn’t been a lot of work done on the psephological impact of 45 years of neo-liberal hegemony in the field of both the economy and culture on working class communities. That’s it’s the dominant culture is beyond question, what is up for debate is the extent to which the residual culture of working class communities in ‘the red wall’ remains and the extent to which it periodically intervenes .

My starting point, which seems to have been overlooked in some of the comments above, is that this vote feels contingent. It is lent. That doesn’t mean that it’s coming back if Labour replace Starmer with Dawn Butler. It means it’s up for grabs is my guess


----------



## andysays (Jun 28, 2021)

emanymton said:


> I think it is just being used as a excuse to vote tory by some.
> 
> But maybe people are just so think they think Johnson is the true voice of the working class and I don't want to accept it.


I don't particularly want to look for explanations on the level of individuals being thick or whatever.

It's a significant issue, had been for while, and is likely to remain so, so I think it's worth considering in ways which might allow us to counter it (which doesn't mean persuading people to vote Labour).

I agree with Smokeandsteam 's suggestion that Brexit may be a factor in this case, but it's an issue even when Brexit isn't a factor.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 28, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> My starting point, which seems to have been overlooked in some of the comments above, is that this vote feels contingent. It is lent. That doesn’t mean that it’s coming back if Labour replace Starmer with Dawn Butler. It means it’s up for grabs is my guess


In a sense all voting behaviour is contingent on the specific context, forces and drivers acting at any particular electoral event, and all voting is a process of lending sovereignty. I'm sure that the LP is hanging on to the belief that the present circumstances driving the working class Labour -> Con swings will pass and 'normal service' can be resumed, but I think you last point is the pertinent one. 

Maybe we're witnessing a different form of Pasokification?


----------



## TopCat (Jun 28, 2021)

andysays said:


> I'm not entirely convinced by this.
> 
> It's one thing to say "I've voted Labour forever, but I'm not voting for them again".
> 
> It's something else to say "I'm going to vote Tory". That can't be explained simply by the fact that Labour are shit.


Some people currently think working class people will be better served by the tories than labour.


----------



## PR1Berske (Jun 28, 2021)

The working class voters of 30-odd years ago are paying off their mortgages and settling down to decent pensions now.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jun 28, 2021)

PR1Berske said:


> The working class voters of 30-odd years ago are paying off their mortgages and settling down to decent pensions now.



Yeah, the data I've seen shows that all demographics of the working population vote Labour more than Tory still, but the retired overwhelmingly vote tory, as to many home owners. As soon as people get any sort of material benefit, 'fuck everyone else' is sadly all to often the mindset.


----------



## Guineveretoo (Jun 28, 2021)

PR1Berske said:


> The working class voters of 30-odd years ago are paying off their mortgages and settling down to decent pensions now.


Does that mean they are less likely to vote Labour?


----------



## killer b (Jun 28, 2021)

Guineveretoo said:


> Does that mean they are less likely to vote Labour?


Correlation does not necessarily imply causation, but home owners are much more likely to vote Tory, yeah.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jun 28, 2021)

Guineveretoo said:


> Does that mean they are less likely to vote Labour?



Good graph in this article, it shows that, excluding retirees, all categories of workers earning less than £100,000 per annum are more likely to vote labour than tory. By contrast, when retirees are included, all categories earning more than £5000 per annum are more likely to vote tory:  









						Labour, not the Conservatives, was the largest party among low-income workers in 2019
					

The Tories owe their large majority to support from retired voters, not working-age ones.




					www.newstatesman.com


----------



## PR1Berske (Jun 28, 2021)

Guineveretoo said:


> Does that mean they are less likely to vote Labour?


Home ownership, and persuading your children about home ownership, does funny things to voting intentions.


----------



## chilango (Jun 28, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> There is undoubtedly a need for more work to be done on this. Let’s face it, until now there hasn’t been a lot of work done on the psephological impact of 45 years of neo-liberal hegemony in the field of both the economy and culture on working class communities. That’s it’s the dominant culture is beyond question, what is up for debate is the extent to which the residual culture of working class communities in ‘the red wall’ remains and the extent to which it periodically intervenes .
> 
> My starting point, which seems to have been overlooked in some of the comments above, is that this vote feels contingent. It is lent. That doesn’t mean that it’s coming back if Labour replace Starmer with Dawn Butler. It means it’s up for grabs is my guess



Sure...and we're 20 years on from when the BNP grabbed a bunch of these votes.

My question is more about how much of this is: 

w/c voters (as opposed to, say, m/c voters "with accents")

transferred from Labour to Tory (rather than previous Labour voters not voting, and the Tories picking up additional votes from elsewhere)

Indeed, is the Tory vote significantly increasing or are they just better placed to win with a small increase on their existing support?

Some of this might be easier to answer than others, but I do think caution and care is required when trying to unpick all of this.


----------



## platinumsage (Jun 28, 2021)

Sharing a platform with a Hindu!


----------



## killer b (Jun 28, 2021)

He's a fascist as well as a hindu tbf.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jun 28, 2021)

killer b said:


> He's a fascist as well as a hindu tbf.



Hindu fascist, Jewish fascist, Christian fascist, Islamic fascist. We are truly blessed to have a leader who has transcended the sectarian divide and is welcoming and open to fascists of all colours and creeds!


----------



## Guineveretoo (Jun 28, 2021)

killer b said:


> Correlation does not necessarily imply causation, but home owners are much more likely to vote Tory, yeah.


The implication was that, once we have paid off our mortgages (being of the generation which was able to take out mortgages in the 90s when houses were a tad more affordable, and/or people who bought their council house in the 90s), we suddenly start voting Tory. Is there any evidence of that?

In fact, is there evidence that working class people who own their own home, even with a mortgage, are more likely to vote Tory?


----------



## Guineveretoo (Jun 28, 2021)

PR1Berske said:


> Home ownership, and persuading your children about home ownership, does funny things to voting intentions.


I took out my mortgage in 1993. I didn't stop voting Labour. My daughter took out a mortgage about 10 years ago, with her partner. They are both still voting Labour. 

So, doesn't always follow....


----------



## Guineveretoo (Jun 28, 2021)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Good graph in this article, it shows that, excluding retirees, all categories of workers earning less than £100,000 per annum are more likely to vote labour than tory. By contrast, when retirees are included, all categories earning more than £5000 per annum are more likely to vote tory:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Is this about paying off mortgages?


----------



## killer b (Jun 28, 2021)

Guineveretoo said:


> The implication was that, once we have paid off our mortgages (being of the generation which was able to take out mortgages in the 90s when houses were a tad more affordable, and/or people who bought their council house in the 90s), we suddenly start voting Tory. Is there any evidence of that?
> 
> In fact, is there evidence that working class people who own their own home, even with a mortgage, are more likely to vote Tory?


I don't think it's a personal dig against you, it's just what every bit of analysis on voting behaviour ever has shown - that properly owners and older people are more likely to vote tory. It's why the tories are keen on right to buy schemes and the like - it's about creating voters who're more likely to vote for them.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 28, 2021)

chilango said:


> Sure...and we're 20 years on from when the BNP grabbed a bunch of these votes.
> 
> My question is more about how much of this is:
> 
> ...



There's another variable in the voter churn of the 'red wall' seats; that of the post-2010 collapse of LD support going to Tory. Even with the LP's 'red-wall' vote share holding up (relatively well) the FPTP implications of the LD -> Con swings have taken their toll.

Off course such 'analysis' predates the disastrous Starmer incumbency.


----------



## Guineveretoo (Jun 28, 2021)

killer b said:


> I don't think it's a personal dig against you, it's just what every bit of analysis on voting behaviour ever has shown - that properly owners and older people are more likely to vote tory. It's why the tories are keen on right to buy schemes and the like - it's about creating voters who're more likely to vote for them.


I didn't think it was. It just seemed odd to suggest that paying off our mortgages and failing to get our state pension (because of the bastard Tories moving the pension age for women by 6 years) would cause people to vote Tory when they had not done so before. 

Perhaps I just misunderstood what was meant.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Jun 28, 2021)

killer b said:


> I don't think it's a personal dig against you, it's just what every bit of analysis on voting behaviour ever has shown - that properly owners and older people are more likely to vote tory. It's why the tories are keen on right to buy schemes and the like - it's about creating voters who're more likely to vote for them.


Surely the message to take away from that is that pensioners, rather than property owners, are the ones more likely to vote Tory. The Tories introduced the triple lock pension, and so far have yet to change track on that. If poor pensioners vote in a purely selfish way (not saying they all do) then they might well decide to vote Tory just to keep their state pension going.


----------



## killer b (Jun 28, 2021)

Guineveretoo said:


> I didn't think it was. It just seemed odd to suggest that paying off our mortgages and failing to get our state pension (because of the bastard Tories moving the pension age for women by 6 years) would cause people to vote Tory when they had not done so before.
> 
> Perhaps I just misunderstood what was meant.


I'm not sure what the mechanism is that results in older property owners being more likely to vote tory, but you can't argue with the data.


----------



## Loose meat (Jun 28, 2021)

You see it in Lambeth Labour all the time - the quintesential Tory policy of annual residential property inflation making owner-occupiers incrementally comfortably numb.

They drop out of activism, they start to rely on Newsnight, they became less engaged with others less fortunate in their own communities (remind me, what did Sure Start do, was it that woman with the long name and headress?), they start to create their own hero narratives around life success (made it against the odds ... despite being a Woman!!). Obv. got on the property ladder with parental help or other good fortune but that gets pushed aside in the heroism of their self-narrated life story. 

The Labour Party ends up as a social group for them, something that gets them out the house for an evening a month: Lambeth Labour.


----------



## Raheem (Jun 28, 2021)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> Surely the message to take away from that is that pensioners, rather than property owners, are the ones more likely to vote Tory. The Tories introduced the triple lock pension, and so far have yet to change track on that. If poor pensioners vote in a purely selfish way (not saying they all do) then they might well decide to vote Tory just to keep their state pension going.


It's not really and either/or question though. Pensioners are more likely to vote Tory. Home owners are more likely to vote Tory. IMO pensioners are currently a bigger problem for Labour, though.


----------



## Guineveretoo (Jun 28, 2021)

killer b said:


> I'm not sure what the mechanism is that results in older property owners being more likely to vote tory, but you can't argue with the data.


Can you link to the data that shows former Labour voters becoming Tory voters as they pay off their mortgages?  That is what is concerning me.


----------



## Guineveretoo (Jun 28, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> You see it in Lambeth Labour all the time - the quintesential Tory policy of annual residential property inflation making owner-occupiers incrementally comfortably numb.
> 
> They drop out of activism, they start to rely on Newsnight, they became less engaged with others less fortunate in their own communities (remind me, what did Sure Start do, was it that woman with the long name and headress?), they start to create their own hero narratives around life success (made it against the odds ... despite being a Woman!!). Obv. got on the property ladder with parental help or other good fortune but that gets pushed aside in the heroism of their self-narrated life story.
> 
> The Labour Party ends up as a social group for them, something that gets them out the house for an evening a month: Lambeth Labour.


Sure Start was a Labour Government initiative providing childcare support and children's centres which was ended by the Bastard Tories. Not what you are thinking of, I suspect.


----------



## killer b (Jun 28, 2021)

Guineveretoo said:


> Can you link to the data that shows former Labour voters becoming Tory voters as they pay off their mortgages?  That is what is concerning me.


I'm not sure the data is granular enough to show that. Rather it's a theory that explains the data that shows older property owners favour the tories - ie, that owning a property outright and living off a pension changes your relationship with the means of production etc, and therefore which party is most aligned with your interests (this doesn't mean all older property owners vote tory - obviously there's plenty who don't, including you and your daughter). There may be other theories that explain this, but it makes reasonable sense to me.


----------



## Loose meat (Jun 28, 2021)

Guineveretoo said:


> Sure Start was a Labour Government initiative providing childcare support and children's centres which was ended by the Bastard Tories. Not what you are thinking of, I suspect.


I know.


----------



## andysays (Jun 28, 2021)

Guineveretoo said:


> I took out my mortgage in 1993. I didn't stop voting Labour. My daughter took out a mortgage about 10 years ago, with her partner. They are both still voting Labour.
> 
> So, doesn't always follow....


I don't think anyone has said it always follows.

But I think it's been demonstrated pretty conclusively over the decades that home owners are statistically more like to vote Tory than renters.


----------



## Guineveretoo (Jun 28, 2021)

killer b said:


> I'm not sure the data is granular enough to show that. Rather it's a theory that explains the data that shows older property owners favour the tories - ie, that owning a property outright and living off a pension changes your relationship with the means of production etc, and therefore which party is most aligned with your interests (this doesn't mean all older property owners vote tory - obviously there's plenty who don't, including you and your daughter). There may be other theories that explain this, but it makes reasonable sense to me.


I always think it depends on the intelligence/knowledge of the person, tbh. My father is also a property owner (now in his 90s), and he would never vote Tory. I see that as him not just having a social conscience, but having some intelligence/sense.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Jun 28, 2021)

I used to work with a bloke who was strongly anti-monarchist, strongly anti-nuclear, staunch atheist. He voted Tory because his Granny had bought her council tax, not even himself. ??????


----------



## andysays (Jun 28, 2021)

Guineveretoo said:


> I always think it depends on the intelligence of the person, tbh. My father is also a property owner (now in his 90s), and he would never vote Tory. I see that as him not just having a social conscience, but having some intelligence/sense.


As I've said before, I don't think dismissing working class Tories as less intelligent is a great way to go about understanding the issue, far less winning them back.


----------



## Guineveretoo (Jun 28, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> I know.


So who is the person with the long name and the headdress who is linked to Sure Start? It was led by Tessa Jowell, who has neither a long name nor a headdress.

I think you mean Camila Batmanghelidjh who had nothing to do with either the Labour Party or Sure Start, but did run organisations called Kids Company and Place2Be, although she didn't wear a headdress. HTH.


----------



## killer b (Jun 28, 2021)

Guineveretoo said:


> I always think it depends on the intelligence of the person, tbh. My father is also a property owner (now in his 90s), and he would never vote Tory. I see that as him not just having a social conscience, but having some intelligence/sense.


I don't think this is a very sensible way of thinking about politics or people tbh


----------



## Guineveretoo (Jun 28, 2021)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> I used to work with a bloke who was strongly anti-monarchist, strongly anti-nuclear, staunch atheist. He voted Tory because his Granny had bought her council tax, not even himself. ??????


See? Ignorant


----------



## Guineveretoo (Jun 28, 2021)

killer b said:


> I don't think this is a very sensible way of thinking about politics or people tbh


Have you heard the phrase "ignorance is the root of all evil"? I would say the same about voting Tory....


----------



## Guineveretoo (Jun 28, 2021)

andysays said:


> As I've said before, I don't think dismissing working class Tories as less intelligent is a great way to go about understanding the issue, far less winning them back.


I am not dismissing them. I think it is up to us to educate them!


----------



## LDC (Jun 28, 2021)

_Really?_ FFS, surely we're beyond that kind of 'analysis' about why people vote (and act) they way they do?

No wonder some people find the left annoying and patronising.


----------



## killer b (Jun 28, 2021)

Guineveretoo said:


> I am not dismissing them. I think it is up to us to educate them!


_Hey tory voters, stop being so thick and selfish!_


----------



## Guineveretoo (Jun 28, 2021)

killer b said:


> _Hey tory voters, stop being so thick and selfish!_


Sure, that is one way of doing it. There are others.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 28, 2021)

PR1Berske said:


> The working class voters of 30-odd years ago are paying off their mortgages and settling down to decent pensions now.


About time there was a proper revival of the affluent worker/ embourgeoisement of the working class theories of the 60s and 70s .


----------



## Guineveretoo (Jun 28, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> _Really?_ FFS, surely we're beyond that kind of 'analysis' about why people vote (and act) they way they do?
> 
> No wonder some people find the left annoying and patronising.


I was being slightly flippant, although I do like to think that, once people understand the impact that Tories have on society and the planet, only the most hard-line people would still vote for them. 

I don't think I have said anything that could be said to be patronising, but I am assuming that the people in this thread are not in the category being referred to. 

I am kind of flattered at being described as being "the left". Most people I know who are on "the left" would not describe me that way, I suspect.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 28, 2021)

killer b said:


> _Hey tory voters, stop being so thick and selfish!_


We’ve probably got more people with degrees than at anytime in history


----------



## andysays (Jun 28, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> About time there was a proper revival of the affluent worker/ embourgeoisement of the working class theories of the 60s and 70s .


It's not a new thing, this WC Tory business.

My grandad, born in 1900 in Aberdeenshire, voted Tory all his life.

But the factors that led hi. to behave like that are u likely to be the same as those applying in this B&S by election (unless Guineveretoo is correct and it really is all about being a thick cunt).


----------



## Guineveretoo (Jun 28, 2021)

andysays said:


> It's not a new thing, this WC Tory business.
> 
> My grandad, born in 1900 in Aberdeenshire, voted Tory all his life.
> 
> But the factors that led hi. to behave like that are u likely to be the same as those applying in this B&S by election (unless Guineveretoo is correct and it really is all about being a thick cunt).


I have not said that anyone is a thick cunt. 

But I thought we were talking about people who had voted Labour all their life but were now changing, rather than the "working class Tories" who have voted that way all their lives...

But I am going offline now, anyway, so talk amongst yourselves.


----------



## Loose meat (Jun 28, 2021)

Guineveretoo said:


> So who is the person with the long name and the headdress who is linked to Sure Start? It was led by Tessa Jowell, who has neither a long name nor a headdress.
> 
> I think you mean Camila Batmanghelidjh who had nothing to do with either the Labour Party or Sure Start, but did run organisations called Kids Company and Place2Be, although she didn't wear a headdress. HTH.



I was elaborating a point about property owners becoming comfortable. If you missed that, I should have been clearer.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Jun 28, 2021)

brogdale said:


> n
> 
> Yeah, I don't think it is entirely plausible to cast this, and recent by-election results and voting patterns as being a binary "anti-Labour" but not "pro-Tory". The psephological evidence is there; growing numbers of our class are voting for the tories.



What exactly is 'our class'?

A good %age of Urbanites are graduates, with good income and what would be classed as 'not working class' jobs.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 28, 2021)

Not again.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Jun 28, 2021)

I have just completed a house move and taken on a mortgage. 
I now suddenly see that Thatcher was right to take firm action to put this country back on track and thanking god that the terrorist supporting peacenik Jeremy corbyn was kept out of number 10.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Jun 28, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Not again.



You made a statement, I'm asking you to clarify what you meant.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 28, 2021)

Sasaferrato said:


> You made a statement, I'm asking you to clarify what you meant.


Oh, FFS...I'm working class so when I say "our class' I mean working class as in the class we were talking about if you'd actually fucking read what was being discussed instead of just trying to trivialise with your usual shite questioning.


----------



## chilango (Jun 28, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Not again.



I know Sass doesn't really count...but told ya so.

No attempt at talking about  w/c politics goes by without someone chipping in with that kinda comment.

Usually followed by some property speculating small businessman claiming to be pfwc because their dad lived on a council estate for a bit and they can't get their head round the Costa menu.


----------



## NoXion (Jun 28, 2021)

Sasaferrato said:


> You made a statement, I'm asking you to clarify what you meant.



I'm assuming it has more to do with relationship to the means of production, and less to do with wearing flat caps and being Northern.


----------



## platinumsage (Jun 28, 2021)

Sasaferrato said:


> You made a statement, I'm asking you to clarify what you meant.



Your proletarian class consciousness has been corrupted and oppressed by the bourgeois mate, don’t blame yourself.


----------



## Sue (Jun 28, 2021)

chilango said:


> I know Sass doesn't really count...but told ya so.
> 
> No attempt at talking about  w/c politics goes by without someone chipping in with that kinda comment.
> 
> Usually followed by some property speculating small businessman claiming to be pfwc because their dad lived on a council estate for a bit and *they can't get their head round the Costa menu.*


Frothy coffees FTW.


----------



## andysays (Jun 28, 2021)

Guineveretoo said:


> I have not said that anyone is a thick cunt.
> 
> But I thought we were talking about people who had voted Labour all their life but were now changing, rather than the "working class Tories" who have voted that way all their lives...
> 
> But I am going offline now, anyway, so talk amongst yourselves.


I was being slightly flippant too.

And you're right to remind us that there are differences between habitual Labour voters switching to Tory and long term WC Tories.

I think the thing that prompted this discussion was a quote someone posted from one habitual Labour voter who said they were intending to switch to Tory at this by election, but the whole discussion is worth having, IMO, without reducing it to the level of voters being thick or selfish or anything else which effectively blame the individual.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Jun 28, 2021)

NoXion said:


> I'm assuming it has more to do with relationship to the means of production, and less to do with wearing flat caps and being Northern.



I think that 'class' as it used to be defined is a dodo. 

On your definition, both a CEO and a new apprentice are the same class, as both are involved with 'the means of production'.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 28, 2021)

Let's not.


----------



## andysays (Jun 28, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Not again.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Jun 28, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Oh, FFS...I'm working class so when I say "our class' I mean working class as in the class we were talking about if you'd actually fucking read what was being discussed instead of just trying to trivialise with your usual shite questioning.



You really are incapable of civility, and as a possessor of a huge store of hubris, hate to be challenged.

You are talking bollocks as usual. Only unreconstructed Marxists still hold on to the concept of 'Working class'. The world has moved on, you haven't.


----------



## NoXion (Jun 28, 2021)

Sasaferrato said:


> I think that 'class' as it used to be defined is a dodo.
> 
> On your definition, both a CEO and a new apprentice are the same class, as both are involved with 'the means of production'.



No they are not. Have you seen how much CEOs get paid? They could easily choose to retire and live off the millions. But they don't.


----------



## killer b (Jun 28, 2021)

Sasaferrato said:


> Only unreconstructed Marxists still hold on to the concept of 'Working class'.


didn't some tory MPs release a report only last week about underachievement among white working class children? Was that report aimed only at unreconstructed marxists?


----------



## brogdale (Jun 28, 2021)

andysays said:


> View attachment 275767


But...comrade, did Mr Rusty own that machinery?


----------



## Sasaferrato (Jun 28, 2021)

andysays said:


> I was being slightly flippant too.
> 
> And you're right to remind us that there are differences between habitual Labour voters switching to Tory and long term WC Tories.
> 
> I think the thing that prompted this discussion was a quote someone posted from one habitual Labour voter who said they were intending to switch to Tory at this by election, but the whole discussion is worth having, IMO, without reducing it to the level of* voters being thick or selfish or anything else which effectively blame the individual.*


That attitude by the hard left is a driver of people moving away from Labour.

'The phrases 'You are a thick cunt' and 'Vote for me', well it isn't going to persuade many is it.

The huge problem that the left has, but are not even conscious of it, is that people will not, in general, vote for an ideology, they will vote for specifics. *EDIT: *There was a time when people would vote for an ideology, and classes were much more defined. The immediate post WWII period was like that that, but then, many many more people worked in manual manufacturing jobs. Times have changed though and though, and definitions with it.

The ridicule that Corbyn and McDonnell engendered was never going to be overcome.

Get Burnham in, get a competent shadow Chancellor appointed, and get your policies out there. Point out where the current government has gone wrong (huge choice there) and how you will fix it.

You can have absolutely pure ideology, withe the concurrent denigration of voters 'who are not pure'  or you can be in government, but not both. What do you want?


----------



## Sasaferrato (Jun 28, 2021)

killer b said:


> didn't some tory MPs release a report only last week about underachievement among white working class children? Was that report aimed only at unreconstructed marxists?



You know what I mean.


----------



## NoXion (Jun 28, 2021)

Sasaferrato said:


> That attitude by the hard left is a driver of people moving away from Labour.
> 
> 'The phrases 'You are a thick cunt' and 'Vote for me', well it isn't going to persuade many is it.



Which far left folks have been calling people thick and telling them to vote Labour? I haven't seen the far left do much of either. Or are you getting confused about the far left versus the Labour left?


----------



## brogdale (Jun 28, 2021)

Sasaferrato said:


> You know what I mean.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Jun 28, 2021)

brogdale said:


> View attachment 275769


Well, in the tenor initiated by you, fuck off and answer my question which was put first, then I may answer yours.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Jun 28, 2021)

NoXion said:


> Which far left folks have been calling people thick and telling them to vote Labour? I haven't seen the far left do much of either. Or are you getting confused about the far left versus the Labour left?


*voters being thick or selfish or anything else which effectively blame the individual.*


----------



## andysays (Jun 28, 2021)

brogdale said:


> But...comrade, did Mr Rusty own that machinery?


At the moment I'm more concerned by the fact that I posted what I thought was a GiF and the roundabout isn't going round


----------



## andysays (Jun 28, 2021)

Sasaferrato said:


> I think that 'class' as it used to be defined is a dodo.
> 
> On your definition, both a CEO and a new apprentice are the same class, as both are involved with 'the means of production'.


Although I've argued above that we shouldn't be dismissing working class Tories as thick, I'm going to make an exception in your case because posts like this demonstrate that you really are a thick cunt


----------



## NoXion (Jun 28, 2021)

Sasaferrato said:


> *voters being thick or selfish or anything else which effectively blame the individual.*



You appear to be quoting andysays who was actually cautioning _against_ doing such as you describe here.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Jun 28, 2021)

NoXion said:


> You appear to be quoting andysays who was actually cautioning _against_ doing such as you describe here.



If caution against an action is required, does this not indicate an action extant?


----------



## Sasaferrato (Jun 28, 2021)

andysays said:


> Although I've argued above that we shouldn't be dismissing working class Tories as thick, I'm going to make an exception in your case because posts like this demonstrate that you really are a thick cunt



I only took you off ignore yesterday, back you go you revolting cunt.


----------



## NoXion (Jun 28, 2021)

Sasaferrato said:


> If caution against an action is required, does this not indicate an action extant?



No. The folks on the far left are the ones telling the libs/soft left to stop being condescending.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 28, 2021)

Sasaferrato said:


> Well, in the tenor initiated by you, fuck off and answer my question which was put first, then I may answer yours.


I did.

Over to you.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 28, 2021)

Sasaferrato said:


> I only took you off ignore yesterday, back you go you revolting cunt.


Have refreshments been taken?


----------



## andysays (Jun 28, 2021)

Sasaferrato said:


> I only took you off ignore yesterday, back you go you revolting cunt.


I know I haven't done myself what I'm about to suggest, but could we please try to ignore and not respond to any more of Sasaferrato 's idiotic thread derailing contributions


----------



## Rimbaud (Jun 28, 2021)

brogdale said:


> n
> 
> Yeah, I don't think it is entirely plausible to cast this, and recent by-election results and voting patterns as being a binary "anti-Labour" but not "pro-Tory". The psephological evidence is there; growing numbers of our class are voting for the tories.



Is there any evidence that increasing numbers of working class people of working age are voting Tory, or is it predominantly home-owner retirees combined with a lower turnout from younger working class voters?


----------



## Sasaferrato (Jun 28, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Have refreshments been taken?



Nope, just fed up to the back teeth with wankers who cannot be civil. I did not launch an 'ad hom' against the fuckwitted onanist, but he did against me.

I have had a very clear policy of 'don't abuse me, and I won't abuse you' for a long time.

Argue all you like, tell me I'm wrong, that is normal discourse, that shitstain is incapable of that though.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 28, 2021)

Rimbaud said:


> Is there any evidence that increasing numbers of working class people of working age are voting Tory, or is it predominantly home-owner retirees combined with a lower turnout from younger working class voters?


I haven't seen data that differentiates out by age and class, but the 2019 GE (large sample size) post-election polling did show that more working class voters, as defined by the state's own 'Social Grade' criteria, were voting tory:



In 2017, those 2 bottom blue bars were both at 44%.


----------



## andysays (Jun 28, 2021)

Rimbaud said:


> Is there any evidence that increasing numbers of working class people of working age are voting Tory, or is it predominantly home-owner retirees combined with a lower turnout from younger working class voters?


This is the relevant quote from the article posted by Jeff Robinson which took the discussion in this direction.

_“My brother was a miner, my dad was a builder, my mam was a barmaid who worked in mills, I was a nurse – you’re not going to vote anybody but Labour, are you?”

Cheryl Rowan, 62, is just the type of voter that the Labour party is desperately trying to hold on to in next week’s byelection in Batley and Spen, and in their former northern heartlands more generally.

She lives in one of a small row of council houses in Heckmondwike, a town formerly known for manufacturing blankets as part of West Yorkshire’s heavy woollen district. That industry is long gone.

“There’s no shoe factories, no textiles, we were a northern powerhouse but now we ain’t got anything but restaurants and a new swimming pool that’s getting built that you can work at, and care … there’s no other jobs,” Rowan says._

She appears to be a council tenant and not yet to have reached retirement age.

(I realise that one example isn't evidence of a wider trend)


----------



## Sasaferrato (Jun 28, 2021)

brogdale said:


> I haven't seen data that differentiates out by age and class, but the 2019 GE (large sample size) post-election polling did show that more working class voters, as defined by the state's own 'Social Grade' criteria, were voting tory:
> 
> View attachment 275795
> 
> In 2017, those 2 bottom blue bars were both at 44%.









E is a bit misleading, many state pensioners are not solely state pensioners, and are quite well off.


----------



## Rimbaud (Jun 28, 2021)

brogdale said:


> I haven't seen data that differentiates out by age and class, but the 2019 GE (large sample size) post-election polling did show that more working class voters, as defined by the state's own 'Social Grade' criteria, were voting tory:
> 
> View attachment 275795
> 
> In 2017, those 2 bottom blue bars were both at 44%.



I think we've been through this before on these forums, but aren't the C2 DE ridiculously outdated descriptors of class now? They have a strong bias towards the sort of manual labour which few people do these days, so again they overrepresent retirees who used to do manual work.

An admin work on temporary contract and minimum wage would be classified as middle class according to those metrics. Working in a call centre is C1.


----------



## tim (Jun 28, 2021)

andysays said:


> At the moment I'm more concerned by the fact that I posted what I thought was a GiF and the roundabout isn't going round


Do you have a problem with the the roundabout withdrawing it's labour?


----------



## killer b (Jun 28, 2021)

Rimbaud said:


> I think we've been through this before on these forums, but aren't the C2 DE ridiculously outdated descriptors of class now? They have a strong bias towards the sort of manual labour which few people do these days, so again they overrepresent retirees who used to do manual work.
> 
> An admin work on temporary contract and minimum wage would be classified as middle class according to those metrics. Working in a call centre is C1.


The British Election Study has a different classification, but recorded similar movements of voters. 





__





						The Re-shaping Of Class Voting By Geoffrey Evans and Jonathan Mellon - The British Election Study
					






					www.britishelectionstudy.com


----------



## brogdale (Jun 28, 2021)

Rimbaud said:


> I think we've been through this before on these forums, but aren't the C2 DE ridiculously outdated descriptors of class now? They have a strong bias towards the sort of manual labour which few people do these days, so again they overrepresent retirees who used to do manual work.
> 
> An admin work on temporary contract and minimum wage would be classified as middle class according to those metrics. Working in a call centre is C1.


I think so; as chilango said upthread, needs so more fine-grained psephology.


----------



## Rimbaud (Jun 28, 2021)

andysays said:


> This is the relevant quote from the article posted by Jeff Robinson which took the discussion in this direction.
> 
> _“My brother was a miner, my dad was a builder, my mam was a barmaid who worked in mills, I was a nurse – you’re not going to vote anybody but Labour, are you?”
> 
> ...


Being a 62 year old council tenant also means she has been insulated from the problems facing younger workers today; in particular access to housing. Young people struggling with exploitative rents and insecure low wage contracts don't get access to council houses these days.

Ime, most of those voting Tory are older people who are insulated or out of touch with problems around access to housing and secure work. Issues that Corbyn's Labour mobilised voters around, but older voters who already had their own homes - or secure council tenancies - did not really relate to how bad problems with housing and wages are now.


----------



## kenny g (Jun 28, 2021)

Interesting that in response to one of the most decisive and poisonous by-elections of recent years this thread appears to be entering the realms of poisonous division...


----------



## Sasaferrato (Jun 28, 2021)

Rimbaud said:


> Being a 62 year old council tenant also means she has been insulated from the problems facing younger workers today; in particular access to housing. Young people struggling with exploitative rents and insecure low wage contracts don't get access to council houses these days.
> 
> Ime, most of those voting Tory are older people who are insulated or out of touch with problems around access to housing and secure work. Issues that Corbyn's Labour mobilised voters around, but older voters who already had their own homes - or secure council tenancies - did not really relate to how bad problems with housing and wages are now.



Could older people being more likely to vote than young people also be a skewing factor?

My grandson voted in the last Scottish election because his mother more or less made him, but none of his mates voted.


----------



## killer b (Jun 28, 2021)

kenny g said:


> Interesting that in response to one of the most decisive and poisonous by-elections of recent years this thread appears to be entering the realms of poisonous division...


have you never been here before or something? this is a good-natured exchange of views.


----------



## oryx (Jun 28, 2021)

Sasaferrato said:


> Could older people being more likely to vote than young people also be a skewing factor?


I would say yes, definitely.


----------



## belboid (Jun 28, 2021)

plus it tends to be better off folk who live longer


----------



## Sasaferrato (Jun 28, 2021)

belboid said:


> plus it tends to be better off folk who live longer


Yep, statistically undeniable.


----------



## tim (Jun 28, 2021)

Rimbaud said:


> Being a 62 year old council tenant also means she has been insulated from the problems facing younger workers today; in particular access to housing. Young people struggling with exploitative rents and insecure low wage contracts don't get access to council houses these days.
> 
> Ime, most of those voting Tory are older people who are insulated or out of touch with problems around access to housing and secure work. Issues that Corbyn's Labour mobilised voters around, but older voters who already had their own homes - or secure council tenancies - did not really relate to how bad problems with housing and wages are now.



Except she clearly isn't isolated or out of touch. She makes it clear that the biggest problem is that there are no longer any decently-paid secure jobs. 



> _“There’s no shoe factories, no textiles, we were a northern powerhouse but now we ain’t got anything but restaurants and a new swimming pool that’s getting built that you can work at, and care … there’s no other jobs,” Rowan says._



As to housing she lives in a town where the average price of a terrace house is £118,500 which is affordable for anyone with the aforementioned decent wage.
House Prices in Heckmondwike


----------



## Rimbaud (Jun 28, 2021)

tim said:


> Except she clearly isn't isolated or out of touch. She makes it clear that the biggest problem is that there are no longer any decently-paid secure jobs.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



120,000 is not easily affordable if you don't have the money for a deposit and if you have to rent.

To say nothing of people working zero hours or temporary contracts who are not eligible for a mortgage.


----------



## andysays (Jun 28, 2021)

Rimbaud said:


> 120,000 is not easily affordable if you don't have the money for a deposit and if you have to rent.
> 
> To say nothing of people working zero hours or temporary contracts who are not eligible for a mortgage.



It appears to me that the largest single factor here is the absence of decently-paid secure jobs, which she explicitly mentions. If you don't have a decently-paid secure job, you will struggle to get a mortgage.

That absence is likely to mean that local younger people who can find a job elsewhere are likely to leave, but older people, in general statistical terms, are less likely to do so. In other words, I don't think your argument is really that different from the point she's making, it just approaches it from a different perspective.


----------



## andysays (Jun 28, 2021)

Some of the other stuff that same interviewee says is interesting, BTW

_Rowan, however, has had enough. Despite her lifelong affiliation to the party, she has gradually grown detached from it over the years, and for the first time in her life she will vote Conservative.

The reasons are myriad and stretch back years. As a Brexit supporter, she describes with disgust an image during the referendum campaign of remain politicians and Bob Geldof “on a yacht, shouting down at fishermen while drinking champagne”. She says Jeremy Corbyn “put me off totally”, and she does not think the party represents working-class people. “They’re all lawyers or doctors,” she says. “Keir Starmer – he was a lawyer, wasn’t it? He’s not Harold Wilson, is he?”_

The reference to Wilson intrigues me. As has been mentioned before, he was an Oxford don before he became a politician.

So what's she referring to here? Is it just his northern-ness (which I vaguely remember he used to emphasise) or is there something else?

The only positive reason to vote Conservative rather than not vote Labour appears to be Brexit related stuff


----------



## tim (Jun 28, 2021)

Rimbaud said:


> 120,000 is not easily affordable if you don't have the money for a deposit and if you have to rent.
> 
> To say nothing of people working zero hours or temporary contracts who are not eligible for a mortgage.



Did you only read half my post? You seem to have skipped over the bit about the major problem being the availability of* decently-paid secure jobs* (obviously that excludes temporary or zero-hours contracts) being the primary problem.


----------



## tim (Jun 28, 2021)

andysays said:


> It appears to me that the largest single factor here is the absence of decently-paid secure jobs, which she explicitly mentions. If you don't have a decently-paid secure job, you will struggle to get a mortgage.
> 
> That absence is likely to mean that local younger people who can find a job elsewhere are likely to leave, but older people, in general statistical terms, are less likely to do so. In other words, I don't think your argument is really that different from the point she's making, it just approaches it from a different perspective.



Yes, but she's old, so Rimbaud is convinced that she's a reactionary


----------



## chilango (Jun 28, 2021)

Labour go full LibDem in their latest leaflet


----------



## tim (Jun 28, 2021)

andysays said:


> Some of the other stuff that same interviewee says is interesting, BTW
> 
> _Rowan, however, has had enough. Despite her lifelong affiliation to the party, she has gradually grown detached from it over the years, and for the first time in her life she will vote Conservative.
> 
> ...



If she's 62 her memories will of Wilson will only be slightly less vague than mine. She'll have been 16 or 17 when he stood down and a primary school child when he was at his peak. All I remember is a down-to-earth pipe-smoking Yorkshireman, which was his very well-cultivated public image.


----------



## Rimbaud (Jun 28, 2021)

tim said:


> Did you only read half my post? You seem to have skipped over the bit about the major problem being the availability of* decently-paid secure jobs* (obviously that excludes temporary or zero-hours contracts) being the primary problem.



Well the perspective I'm coming at is, if she recognises that these are a problem, then why was she put off by Corbyn who had policies which aimed to address it?

In my experience talking about this with Grandparents and so on, people of that generation do not relate to the existential angst and anxiety around housing and so on. Corbyn was popular with young people because he was the first leader to address issues around housing and wages, which therefore had a resonance amongst private tenants.

It is not necessarily to so with her being old, but it is to do with her material conditions. General complaints about industrial decline going back decades are one thing, but experiencing first hand the insecure conditions of the labour Market which have been created by this government is another thing, as is having to move to find work and getting trapped in exploitative rent agreements.

If she is a council tenant, she likely has had council housing for a long time as it is extremely hard to get these days. Therefore issues which drew younger people to Corbyn - rent controls, more public housing, secure tenancies, right of tenants to buy from landlords - these promises were like mana from heaven for people stuck renting on low wages, but have far less resonance for someone who isn't, whether they are a home owner or someone who has lived securely in a council house for decades.


----------



## andysays (Jun 28, 2021)

tim said:


> If she's 62 her memories will of Wilson will only be slightly less vague than mine. She'll have been 16 or 17 when he stood down and a primary school child when he was at his peak. All I remember is a down-to-earth pipe-smoking Yorkshireman, which was his very well-cultivated public image.


Yeah, I'm 56 and my memories of him are pretty vague.

Thinking about it, they may be based more on the Mike Yarwood impressions than the man himself...


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Jun 28, 2021)

andysays said:


> Yeah, I'm 56 and my memories of him are pretty vague.
> 
> Thinking about it, they may be based more on the Mike Yarwood impressions than the man himself...


Not much resemblance to the real person, then.


----------



## andysays (Jun 28, 2021)

Rimbaud said:


> Well the perspective I'm coming at is, if she recognises that these are a problem, then why was she put off by Corbyn who had policies which aimed to address it?
> 
> In my experience talking about this with Grandparents and so on, people of that generation do not relate to the existential angst and anxiety around housing and so on. Corbyn was popular with young people because he was the first leader to address issues around housing and wages, which therefore had a resonance amongst private tenants.
> 
> ...


You have a point here, but I think you're over doing it.

She isn't just making "general complaints about industrial decline going back decades", she refers to particular experiences of herself and her family.

I don't know if she has children herself, and if so why their perspectives aren't mentioned, but it could just be that she also said a great deal about that, but that the author chose not to include that.

At least part of the reason she was put off Corbyn could be to do with the way he was absolutely slated, both by the media and by traditionalists within the Labour party.


----------



## Guineveretoo (Jun 28, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> I was elaborating a point about property owners becoming comfortable. If you missed that, I should have been clearer.


What has that got to do with Sure Start, or a woman with a long name and a headdress? It certainly wasn't clear to me.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Jun 28, 2021)

andysays said:


> As I've said before, I don't think dismissing working class Tories as less intelligent is a great way to go about understanding the issue, far less winning them back.


It may not be a great way of going about things but I've yet to encounter an intelligent tory voter, wether working class or not. Personally I don't see much intelligence in voting for any of the parties, but tory voters are a particular kind of stupid.

As for age, the vast majority of over 60's voters vote tory. Young people not voting may make some difference, but surely not much.


----------



## kebabking (Jun 28, 2021)

I think it's a (justifiable?) nostalgia, and I think it's quite widely held - and not just by Labour voters.

People like Attlee, Bevan, Castle, Heally, Foot, Smith, Blair, even Kinnock etc.. are _seen_ as being Big Beasts: real political giants who demanded respect regardless of whether you agree with them if not. 

That seam of labour talent is seen as somewhat petering out since the early/mid-80's. I'm a bit of a news/politics nerd, and I can name 3 members of the shadow cabinet. Nonentities doesn't cover it...

I'm not suggesting some objective comparison, merely emotion, nostalgia, rose-tinted glasses or whatever - to a large extent it doesn't matter. All that matters is that people perceive it, and react to it.


----------



## tim (Jun 28, 2021)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> Not much resemblance to the real person, then.


Yarwood was probably at least as good at impersonating Harold Wilson as Harold Wilson was. 
Both Healey and Wilson were certainly very happy to adopt some of the more endearing quirks that Yarwood's version of themselves endowed them with.


----------



## tim (Jun 28, 2021)

Rimbaud said:


> Well the perspective I'm coming at is, if she recognises that these are a problem, then why was she put off by Corbyn who had policies which aimed to address it?
> 
> In my experience talking about this with Grandparents and so on, people of that generation do not relate to the existential angst and anxiety around housing and so on. Corbyn was popular with young people because he was the first leader to address issues around housing and wages, which therefore had a resonance amongst private tenants.
> 
> ...



Yes, well a lot of people of all ages didn't find Corbyn particularly impressive, often for quite good reasons. As to his policies, given that he couldn't get his own parliamentary party to agree with them, you can't really blame the electorate at large, as well as ageing Yorkshire folk for suspecting that, he would be able to introduce then even if there had been a Labour victory. Being  old she is also probably remembers  how little the last Labour Government actually did to bring back decent jobs, and their enthusiasm for low-paid jobs with fuck-all security.

Can I add, that whilst I' m sorry about your issues with your grandparents, it's probably a mistake to generalise based in those experiences?


----------



## killer b (Jun 28, 2021)

kebabking said:


> I'm a bit of a news/politics nerd, and I can name 3 members of the shadow cabinet. Nonentities doesn't cover it...


How might the new big beasts of the modern Labour Party make themselves known as such? Looking at Kinnock's shadow cabinets, I wonder how many of those guys (it's all guys apart from Gwyneth Dunwoody and Jo Richardson) you'd have heard of if they hadn't been ministers in previous or future Labour governments?


----------



## PR1Berske (Jun 28, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> If anyone thinks that the Galloway entourage , complete with Toby Young and Lawrence Fox on this occasion, are walking around being showered with rose petals by the local electorate then check the security out here
> View attachment 275374



I love this version of the photo with "Howling Laud Hope", the Monster Raving Loony Party candidate, standing to the side.


----------



## Dogsauce (Jun 28, 2021)

Rimbaud said:


> 120,000 is not easily affordable if you don't have the money for a deposit and if you have to rent.
> 
> To say nothing of people working zero hours or temporary contracts who are not eligible for a mortgage.


120 is an average, there will probably be small terraced houses or homes in less desirable areas for 80, flats for 50 or 60 if it’s anything like where I lived up that way.

People and the media commonly treat the average property price as ‘what it costs to buy a house‘ in any given area (the BBC used to have some calculator that showed you ‘where you could afford to live’ based on this) but it’s not a ‘typical’ cost and people start off on the lower rungs generally.


----------



## Leighsw2 (Jun 29, 2021)

I'm assuming that Labour have given up on Batley and are now banking on Galloway getting more votes than the Tory majority so they can blame him? All pretty desperate stuff!

There's a lot of focus on Muslim voters in this bye-election, but I wonder if white voters are abandoning Labour Hartlepool-style? And if they are, will we even hear about it?


----------



## Leighsw2 (Jun 29, 2021)

I was wondering about that as well....


----------



## pbsmooth (Jun 29, 2021)

The right wing media have successfully made Labour = London while painting London as a city full of crime, illegal immigrants, trans rights, BLM, and lefties in million pound houses. No wonder people in Batley don't quite think they're the guys for them. Tories do tough on crime and go big on "traditional values" and it appeals to working class disillusioned just as well as the scared shitless by the Daily Mail middle class blue rinse brigade and the more militant Muslims.


----------



## Loose meat (Jun 29, 2021)

crojoe said:


> The right wing media have successfully made Labour = London while painting London as a city full of crime, illegal immigrants, trans rights, BLM, and lefties in million pound houses. No wonder people in Batley don't quite think they're the guys for them. Tories do tough on crime and go big on "traditional values" and it appeals to working class disillusioned just as well as the scared shitless by the Daily Mail middle class blue rinse brigade and the more militant Muslims.


Lambeth Labour sent Philip Normal up there to canvass last weekend; his branding: 'the first HIV positive Mayor'.


----------



## hitmouse (Jun 29, 2021)

Leighsw2 said:


> I was wondering about that as well....



I'm really curious as to how long it'll take before some centrist freak takes this line of argument to its logical conclusion and suggests that to win back voters' trust, Starmer needs to go and graffiti a synagogue or something, or at least "be seen to engage with voters' legitimate concerns about Jews" or summat.


----------



## pbsmooth (Jun 29, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Lambeth Labour sent Philip Normal up there to canvass last weekend; his branding: 'the first HIV positive Mayor'.


That should do it


----------



## killer b (Jun 29, 2021)

It's true, all northerners are homophobes.


----------



## Loose meat (Jun 29, 2021)

oh look, mindless virtue signalling on U75!!


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 29, 2021)

crojoe said:


> The right wing media have successfully made Labour = London while painting London as a city full of crime, illegal immigrants, trans rights, BLM, and lefties in million pound houses. No wonder people in Batley don't quite think they're the guys for them. Tories do tough on crime and go big on "traditional values" and it appeals to working class disillusioned just as well as the scared shitless by the Daily Mail middle class blue rinse brigade and the more militant Muslims.


What is Labours strategy for the North?


----------



## TopCat (Jun 29, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> What is Labours strategy for the North?


Eat chips and gravy on the tv.


----------



## Loose meat (Jun 29, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> What is Labours strategy for the North?


It's to not have a strategy.

This is the Party that had Remain architech Kier Starmer and key, vocal Remainer Yvette Cooper promenade in a photo op at Hartlepool 2 days before the by-election


----------



## ska invita (Jun 29, 2021)

tim said:


> Except she clearly isn't isolated or out of touch. She makes it clear that the biggest problem is that there are no longer any decently-paid secure jobs.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If there were lots of well paid jobs in the area the house prices would rise accordingly id expect


----------



## killer b (Jun 29, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> key, vocal Remainer Yvette Cooper


Yvette Cooper was vocally in the 'respect the referendum' camp, post referendum. I expect she campaigned for remain, but then so did most of the tory party MPs. I've no time for her, but calling her a key vocal remainer just isn't anything like true.


----------



## Loose meat (Jun 29, 2021)

killer b said:


> Yvette Cooper was vocally in the 'respect the referendum' camp, post referendum.


For 3 months. 

Hence this result in 2019:








						Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford (UK Parliament constituency) - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## hitmouse (Jun 29, 2021)

I mean, no fan of Labour in general or this guy in particular, but I reckon they probably have people with HIV in that Yorkshire nowadays. I didn't really think that HIV was some exotic thing that you could only get in London.


----------



## killer b (Jun 29, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> For 3 months.


When did she become a key vocal remainer? I checked quite a few times, cause people regularly made this claim during the last parliament, and every time I checked it wasn't true.


----------



## ska invita (Jun 29, 2021)

andysays said:


> Some of the other stuff that same interviewee says is interesting, BTW
> 
> _Rowan, however, has had enough. Despite her lifelong affiliation to the party, she has gradually grown detached from it over the years, and for the first time in her life she will vote Conservative.
> 
> The reasons are myriad and stretch back years. As a Brexit supporter, she describes with disgust an image during the referendum campaign of remain politicians and Bob Geldof “on a yacht, shouting down at fishermen while drinking champagne”. She says Jeremy Corbyn “put me off totally”, and she does not think the party represents working-class people. “They’re all lawyers or doctors,” she says. “Keir Starmer – he was a lawyer, wasn’t it? He’s not Harold Wilson, is he?”_


It's so far from reality, where do you start. Vote Toff Tory because they're not champagne drinkers . Riiiight. 
Geldof was shouting at toff champagne drinker Farage iirc, and fishers have been fucked over by all this


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 29, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Eat chips and gravy on the tv.


I'm always reminded of Stuart Maconie's marvellous book Pies and Prejudice


----------



## brogdale (Jun 29, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> I mean, no fan of Labour in general or this guy in particular, but I reckon they probably have people with HIV in that Yorkshire nowadays. I didn't really think that HIV was some exotic thing that you could only get in London.


There's some rank shite being posted on here.


----------



## Loose meat (Jun 29, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> I mean, no fan of Labour in general or this guy in particular, but I reckon they probably have people with HIV in that Yorkshire nowadays. I didn't really think that HIV was some exotic thing that you could only get in London.


You're right.

If you live in Batley you will absolutely ignore all that negative propaganda  about 'London Labour' when this chap walks up your drive. It's almost like some people want to lose the by-election;




__





						philip normal mayor - Google Search
					





					www.google.com


----------



## killer b (Jun 29, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> For 3 months.
> 
> Hence this result in 2019:
> 
> ...


Lots of pro-brexit Labour MPs lost their seats in 2019, what does Cooper loosing ground tell us about her brexit position? Fuck all. She was consistent throughout the 2016-2019 period that the referendum should be honoured.


----------



## Loose meat (Jun 29, 2021)

You're right, the Red Wall is a figment. Yvetter Cooper wasn't a leading Remainer and eveyone in te north loves the Labour Party becasue it reflects their values.


----------



## killer b (Jun 29, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> You're right, the Red Wall is a figment.


you've just invented a political position for a politician that they don't hold dude, don't lecture me about figments.


----------



## hitmouse (Jun 29, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> You're right.
> 
> If you live in Batley you will absolutely ignore all that negative propaganda  about 'London Labour' when this chap walks up your drive. It's almost like some people want to lose the by-election;
> 
> ...


If Labour really want to win the by-election, they should get Starmer to bang on about bananas and nutella, right?


----------



## killer b (Jun 29, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> You're right, the Red Wall is a figment. Yvetter Cooper wasn't a leading Remainer and eveyone in te north loves the Labour Party becasue it reflects their values.


She wasn't a leading remainer, I expect because of the problems Labour were having across the red wall with Brexit. Don't invent positions for me either dickhead.


----------



## chilango (Jun 29, 2021)

Values schmalues.


----------



## killer b (Jun 29, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> You're right.
> 
> If you live in Batley you will absolutely ignore all that negative propaganda  about 'London Labour' when this chap walks up your drive. It's almost like some people want to lose the by-election;
> 
> ...


when did this guy go to Batley & Spen btw? He doesn't mention it on his twitter


----------



## PR1Berske (Jun 29, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> I'm really curious as to how long it'll take before some centrist freak takes this line of argument to its logical conclusion and suggests that to win back voters' trust, Starmer needs to go and graffiti a synagogue or something, or at least "be seen to engage with voters' legitimate concerns about Jews" or summat.



"Well, look, Andrew, I have been leader of the Labour Party now through some very challenging and difficult times, for the country, and for ordinary hard-working people  everywhere, and maybe throwing stones through the window of an East London bagel shop might seem peculiar behaviour for a knighted Leader of the Opposition, I had many more disruptive and offensive ways to deal with - air quotes - The Jews - lined up before we landed on this one."


----------



## PR1Berske (Jun 29, 2021)




----------



## hitmouse (Jun 29, 2021)

killer b said:


> when did this guy go to Batley & Spen btw? He doesn't mention it on his twitter


Typical remainer elitist, with your obsession with "facts" and "whether things happened or not".


----------



## Loose meat (Jun 29, 2021)

killer b said:


> when did this guy go to Batley & Spen btw? He doesn't mention it on his twitter


**


----------



## killer b (Jun 29, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> **



He seems to have left the rainbow jumper at home. What else do you think would have upset the people of Batley and Spen about this guy knocking on their door?


----------



## Loose meat (Jun 29, 2021)

LOL. 'If you don't like my killer come back, I've got another. In fact, I've got all day'.


----------



## tim (Jun 29, 2021)

crojoe said:


> The right wing media have successfully made Labour = London while painting London as a city full of crime, illegal immigrants, trans rights, BLM, and lefties in million pound houses. No wonder people in Batley don't quite think they're the guys for them. Tories do tough on crime and go big on "traditional values" and it appeals to working class disillusioned just as well as the scared shitless by the Daily Mail middle class blue rinse brigade and the more militant Muslims.


Do you think that it might be you rather than 'them' that is in thrall to simplistic clichés?


----------



## Raheem (Jun 29, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Eat chips and gravy on the tv.


We 'ad to do that when t'bailiffs came for t'settee.


----------



## tim (Jun 29, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> You're right, the Red Wall is a figment. Yvetter Cooper wasn't a leading Remainer and eveyone in te north loves the Labour Party becasue it reflects their values.


Figment or not Batley and Spen is not "Red Wall". It's been both Tory and Labour in the past, Labour since 1997 but never a safe seat.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Jun 29, 2021)

The odds.







Bookmakers are the uber pedants. 49/20.


----------



## pbsmooth (Jun 29, 2021)

tim said:


> Do you think that it might be you rather than 'them' that is in thrall to simplistic clichés?



why do you want it to be more complicated? which bit do you disagree with? i've seen it happen with plenty of people I know.


----------



## belboid (Jun 29, 2021)

Sasaferrato said:


> The odds.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They’re quoting two parties that aren’t even standing


----------



## Sasaferrato (Jun 29, 2021)

belboid said:


> They’re quoting two parties that aren’t even standing





Be interesting to see if they would actually take a bet on them.


----------



## Raheem (Jun 29, 2021)

belboid said:


> They’re quoting two parties that aren’t even standing


Would it be possible to place bets against them winning, then?


----------



## hitmouse (Jun 29, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> **



This still feels a little odd to me - I wouldn't have looked at that tweet and thought "ah-ha, Philip Normal's been out in Batley and Spen", first because I don't really make a habit of looking up Labour Party activists' tweets anyway, and also because I don't really know much about the guy so I wouldn't have recognised him from a photo. Do you make a hobby of keeping track of where specific obscure Labour party figures are at any given time? God knows I can't really throw stones here because my brain is clogged up with enough useless information as it is, but that still seems a little strange.


----------



## killer b (Jun 29, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> LOL. 'If you don't like my killer come back, I've got another. In fact, I've got all day'.


Really though: you think there's something about this guy that would be particularly repugnant to the people of Batley & Spen - he just looks like a guy to me though? I'm pretty sure neither his HIV status, or where he's got the train from that morning are likely to come up on the doorstep, if those things are things people in Batley & Spen care about (I'm unconvinced). Yet his presence is somehow an indication that Labour want to lose - I don't get it?


----------



## Cerv (Jun 29, 2021)

belboid said:


> They’re quoting two parties that aren’t even standing



were probably taking bets before the registration deadline, so now they're stuck in the system.
should be refunded your stake as a non-runner surely.


----------



## PR1Berske (Jun 29, 2021)

(Almost) all by-elections have a narrative and story about them. Maybe Airdrie and Shotts had something, coming  a week after the Scottish Parliament elections. Some, you'd struggle to fill a sheet of A4 (Inverclyde a few years ago comes to mind)

B&S will go down in history. One of the dirtiest, most controversial in modern political times. From the perspective of Left and Right.


----------



## killer b (Jun 29, 2021)

The Left are totally absent from this by-election aren't they really?


----------



## PR1Berske (Jun 29, 2021)

killer b said:


> The Left are totally absent from this by-election aren't they really?


Depending where you stand on the position of "Workers Party of Britain"/Galloway; broadly speaking, yes


----------



## killer b (Jun 29, 2021)

I don't think anyone could call Galloway left with a straight face anymore.


----------



## belboid (Jun 29, 2021)

I’ve seen a couple - literally only two - of people half arsededly promoting a vote for him to get rid of Starmer.  ‘What’s the alternative?’ being the main line


----------



## andysays (Jun 30, 2021)

belboid said:


> I’ve seen a couple - literally only two - of people half arsededly promoting a vote for him to get rid of Starmer.  ‘What’s the alternative?’ being the main line


Personally*, I don't care enough about "getting rid of Starmer" to vote for a piece of shit like Galloway. It's not as if Starmer is likely to be replaced by anyone who will be much better anyway. Do these people you mention have any thoughts about how getting rid of Starmer will lead to anything actually positive?

* I don't live in B&S so don't have a vote anyway.


----------



## ska invita (Jun 30, 2021)

voting for a smaller party that wont win in an election is a perfectly acceptable way of using a vote within the narrow confines of this democracy
trying to send cryptic messages through votes/not voting is about as much power as you have at the ballot box, and if that message is We Hate Starmer, then fair enough. I voted I hate starmer at the last opportunity and will do again if hes still around. it wont change the outcome of my safe seat election, but it might make someone take notice and try and decipher the voting trend


----------



## killer b (Jun 30, 2021)

sure, but if the small party in question is George Galloway's, and (as here) a key plank of his campaign is openly homophobic gay-baiting, then I think I'd be more likely to stay at home.


----------



## chilango (Jun 30, 2021)

Yeah. Galloway losing his deposit would be as an achievable, tangible win as Starmer facing a leadership challenge imo. Maybe more so.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 30, 2021)

ska invita said:


> voting for a smaller party that wont win in an election is a perfectly acceptable way of using a vote within the narrow confines of this democracy
> trying to send cryptic messages through votes/not voting is about as much power as you have at the ballot box, and if that message is We Hate Starmer, then fair enough. I voted I hate starmer at the last opportunity and will do again if hes still around. it wont change the outcome of my safe seat election, but it might make someone take notice and try and decipher the voting trend


You've specifically put the blame of actions of states on voters. That Conservative voters are responsible for the actions of the current government.

So
If you vote blue = evil, responsible for actions
If you vote yellow = fine, not responsible for actions
If you vote for a horrible prick = fine, not responsible

_When YOU vote for parties I disprove of you're responsible for their actions, but when I vote for a party I cannot be held to the same principle _is crap


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 30, 2021)

ska invita said:


> voting for a smaller party that wont win in an election is a perfectly acceptable way of using a vote within the narrow confines of this democracy
> trying to send cryptic messages through votes/not voting is about as much power as you have at the ballot box, and if that message is We Hate Starmer, then fair enough. I voted I hate starmer at the last opportunity and will do again if hes still around. it wont change the outcome of my safe seat election, but it might make someone take notice and try and decipher the voting trend


Any suggestions as to how the narrow confines of this democracy should or could be widened ?


----------



## JTG (Jun 30, 2021)

tbh, I don't think that many people in Batley would get a knock on the door from Philip Normal and immediately go "oh no, it's Philip Normal, the first HIV+ mayor" when he asks them if they're voting Labour or not.

In the north, which famously has no LGBTQ+ people and none of their relatives either


----------



## ska invita (Jun 30, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Any suggestions as to how the narrow confines of this democracy should or could be widened ?


that is not within the remit of the discussion of how people should vote or not in a by-election

the list of things id like to see different in the political system is a long one
the ways to change the system is the subject of centuries of  action and theorising
building counterpower to the establishment is the key, and i do my little bit towards that in my own little way, but not surprisingly my agency is tiny in this

as a short-term change ive long wished to see PR in the UK. I've never been a Labour Party member, but there is growing demand to get that into policy amongst the membership. Maybe there'll be another Lib-Con coaltion that might bring it in. Who knows


----------



## brogdale (Jun 30, 2021)

redsquirrel said:


> You've specifically put the blame of actions of states on voters. That Conservative voters are responsible for the actions of the current government.
> 
> So
> If you vote blue = evil, responsible for actions
> ...


Yes, representative democracy necessarily negates voter sovereignty, but in terms of 'responsibility' for the electoral outcome there are  surely gradations dependent upon whether or not the voter is favouring an incumbent (with a 'track record') or challenger and whether to not the selected candidate/party has a viable prospect of achieving a governing majority?


----------



## Guineveretoo (Jun 30, 2021)

Just seen this on Facebook and found it interesting.

___________________________________________________

Why Palestine is still defeating Labour - Must Keir Starmer confront George Galloway’s anti-Israel stance or risk a bigger disaster than losing a by-election?

From the moment its creation was first seriously considered, Israel has proven a problem for the Labour Party. The Attlee government, forced to consider whether to let Jewish immigrants into British-controlled Palestine after the Holocaust, struggled to establish a coherent policy and never quite succeeded.

They were pulled this way and that by their desire to ingratiate themselves with the Americans, their wish to retain British influence in the Middle East, the obvious strength of the humanitarian argument for sheltering refugees, the nationalist aspirations of the Arab population, and the antisemitism of the foreign secretary Ernest Bevin (“There is no doubt in my mind that Ernest detests Jews,” his junior minister confided to his diary).

In the end, when the United Nations decided to partition Palestine into two sovereign states, Attlee and Bevin dumped the question back in the UN’s lap. An issue that involved competing rights and ethnic identity was hard for socialist politicians steeped in class politics and moral absolutes to get to grips with. Yet however tricky it may have proved then, I think it is safe to say that the question of Palestine and Israel has rarely been as troublesome for Labour as it is now.

As Keir Starmer attempts to reset Labour’s policy after Jeremy Corbyn’s leadership, he faces a challenge from George Galloway in Thursday’s Batley & Spen by-election. Galloway appears unlikely to win, but if he can attract enough support from the seat’s large Muslim population, he may help defeat Labour. And prominent among the issues he is using to win that support, and cause a crisis for Starmer, is Palestine.

That this has become a central issue in the by-election has visibly frustrated the Labour candidate Kim Leadbeater. She has shown considerable physical and emotional courage, running in the seat where her sister Jo Cox was murdered. She is articulate and passionate. But when she tries addressing issues she believes matter to the inhabitants of Batley & Spen, she encounters the not unreasonable response that it is the voters and not the candidates who decide what matters to them.

As the salience of the Palestinian issue struck Labour, the party has scrambled to show how much it cares. Starmer raised Palestine, all of a sudden, at prime minister’s questions. Leadbeater tossed in a mention in a discussion of local concerns. She has promised to be “a passionate supporter for the rights of the Palestinian people”.

When Galloway said he had googled his opponent and that she had never before mentioned Palestine, the Labour candidate acknowledged that Galloway “had been a loud voice on Palestine, absolutely”. However, he wouldn’t be able to achieve anything because he couldn’t win, she said. A vote for him would simply let in the Tories.

Leadbeater has bemoaned the fact that Starmer’s views on Palestine “haven’t cut through”. It doesn’t seem to have occurred to her that the problem is the reverse — they have cut through and aren’t what Galloway’s audience wants to hear.

The difference between Galloway and Starmer on Israel and Palestine is not that one of them has been passionate while the other has been lawyerly. It is that they hold fundamentally different views. And Leadbeater simply can’t compete with what Galloway is willing to say and do. Thankfully.

The policy of Starmer and the Labour Party is the one they settled upon not long after the creation of the state of Israel. The one crafted by leaders like Harold Wilson and supported by his successors. There must be two nations, living in peace alongside each other. To this, in the 1980s, was added opposition to Israel retaining any sort of control of the territories it conquered when its neighbours tried to destroy it in successive wars.

When Starmer and Leadbeater talk of Palestinian rights, it is this that they mean: the right of the Palestinians to their own state, Palestinian sovereignty in the West Bank and Gaza, a restrained Israeli military response when attacked, greater care over Palestinian civil rights and an end to the building of settlements. All alongside a sovereign Israel.

This is not at all what Galloway means. It is not what the slogan “Free Palestine from the river to the sea” means. It is not what his fellow critics of “zionism” mean. When Galloway is a “loud voice on Palestine” he is a loud voice for the entire destruction of the state of Israel and its replacement with a single Palestinian state.
There has been so much discussion about whether or not this position or its advocates are antisemitic that a central point has been missed. Never mind for the moment whether it is antisemitic, it’s a really stupid, bad policy that would leave six million Jews defenceless, forcing many to flee as homeless refugees and leaving others to a violent death. It is a policy that fails to learn from the Jewish experience of the 20th century, that in the absence of Israel there was nowhere for the bedraggled survivors of pogrom and genocide to go.

If Starmer were to choose such a policy, he would be turning his back on Britain and Labour’s position since the Second World War, separating himself from the Atlantic alliance and preferring ideology to practicality. It would be endorsing the creation of a highly unstable, fundamentalist, Iranian-backed militant state in the Middle East, clinging to the obviously ridiculous notion that Jews could live in such a state safely. If Labour loses in Batley & Spen, one of its conclusions might be that it needs to talk about Palestine more. It is welcome to do so if it wishes, but it won’t help electorally. The party’s decision to issue a leaflet this week stigmatising the prime minister of India certainly indicates Labour may be willing to attempt to propitiate Galloway and his audience.

For most people Palestine will appear a very odd preoccupation, since relatively few voters have more than a passing interest in the matter. And Starmer will only be able to meet the demands of people like Galloway and his supporters if he commits himself to a policy that is highly irresponsible. He will know it and voters will sense it. It will therefore do him more electoral harm than good.

Calling for a Palestinian state and defending Palestinian rights is not the same demand as Freeing Palestine “from the River (Jordan) to the (Mediterranean) Sea”. Starmer should be resolutely for the first and equally resolutely against the second. And he should show that he knows the difference. Being thwarted by George Galloway would be a setback, a frustration, a disappointment. Becoming George Galloway would be a disaster.

Daniel Finkelstein - The Times


----------



## Loose meat (Jun 30, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> This still feels a little odd to me - I wouldn't have looked at that tweet and thought "ah-ha, Philip Normal's been out in Batley and Spen", first because I don't really make a habit of looking up Labour Party activists' tweets anyway, and also because I don't really know much about the guy so I wouldn't have recognised him from a photo. Do you make a hobby of keeping track of where specific obscure Labour party figures are at any given time? God knows I can't really throw stones here because my brain is clogged up with enough useless information as it is, but that still seems a little strange.



Perhaps you don't know Twitter. If someone you follow 'likes' something, it can crop up in your feed. If 2 people who you follow - say in Lambeth Labour - then the chances it will crop up in your feed increase.

As for your sneering insinuation: fuck off and virtue signal at someone else's expense, you sad little person.


----------



## Loose meat (Jun 30, 2021)

killer b said:


> Really though: you think there's something about this guy that would be particularly repugnant



How did this get escalated to "repugnant". Really, just go for a walk around the park sometimes.


----------



## hitmouse (Jun 30, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Perhaps you don't know Twitter. If someone you follow 'likes' something, it can crop up in your feed. If 2 people who you follow - say in Lambeth Labour - then the chances it will crop up in your feed increase.
> 
> As for your sneering insinuation: fuck off and virtue signal at someone else's expense, you sad little person.


So are you a member of Lambeth Labour then? Or just a dedicated Lambeth Labour fan? Can you give me any hot tips about where I should go to have the best chance of spotting a Lambeth Labour councillor out and about?


----------



## hitmouse (Jun 30, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> How did this get escalated to "repugnant". Really, just go for a walk around the park sometimes.


OK, to de-escalate a bit: how many people in Batley and Spen do you think actually give a shit about this guy, positive or negative?


----------



## killer b (Jun 30, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> How did this get escalated to "repugnant". Really, just go for a walk around the park sometimes.


I dunno man, you brought this guy up - You think there's something so awful about him, his involvement with the campaign is an indication Labour want to lose. Just trying to work out what that might be, cause I can't tell looking at that photo of him on the campaign trail, and at the moment I'm having to assume it's just that you hate gay men. Maybe there's another explanation though.


----------



## Loose meat (Jun 30, 2021)

hitmouse Sure, tell them you spend your days on the internet impressing people you will never meet with your 'so correct' politics.

Either that, or follow a range of twitter accounts that engage with local politics and political personages.


----------



## Argonia (Jun 30, 2021)

I was quite interested to see Christopher Hitchens call Galloway a 'pimp' after his flirtation with Saddam Hussein. But then Hitchens - who did so much fine work on the American Revolution against British monarchical tyranny - probably drank a bit too much and lost his head and supported the Iraq war launched by war criminal Anthony Charles Lynton Blair so none of us are perfect.


----------



## Loose meat (Jun 30, 2021)

killer b said:


> I dunno man, you brought this guy up - You think there's something so awful about him, his involvement with the campaign is an indication Labour want to lose. Just trying to work out what that might be, cause I can't tell looking at that photo of him on the campaign trail, and at the moment I'm having to assume it's just that you hate gay men. Maybe there's another explanation though.


So that's the end of our interations you nasty little internet cunt.


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## killer b (Jun 30, 2021)

oh no.


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## brogdale (Jun 30, 2021)

Patient and effective killer b


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## Loose meat (Jun 30, 2021)

killer b said:


> oh no.



Total internet legend. What an absolute cunt. Feed that internet presence; stand tall in your pants in your bedroom.


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## brogdale (Jun 30, 2021)

Time for goodbyes.


----------



## cuppa tee (Jun 30, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> hitmouse Sure, tell them you spend your days on the internet impressing people you will never meet with your 'so correct' politics.
> 
> Either that, or follow a range of twitter accounts that engage with local politics and political personages.


Hi, I’m from Lambeth and well aware of Mr Normal, Granted he’s a bit divisive amongst locals who know about him ( not that many) and regarded by some as a bit of a self publicist for his niche ‘designs’... nonetheless I think it’s possible you may be over estimating the power of his branding to offend politically even north of the River Thames let alone Batley and Spen.


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## Sprocket. (Jun 30, 2021)

Raheem said:


> We 'ad to do that when t'bailiffs came for t'settee.


But the cud’nt gerrin through frunt doer, cos o’ virtual tin bath fulla virtual coal.


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## Argonia (Jun 30, 2021)

Sprocket. said:


> But the cud’nt gerrin through frunt doer, cos o’ virtual tin bath fulla virtual coal.


What does this mean? Is it Scottish like James Kelman?


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## brogdale (Jun 30, 2021)

I think they mean "high".


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## Sprocket. (Jun 30, 2021)

Argonia said:


> What does this mean? Is it Scottish like James Kelman?


Americans asked me if I was Scottish when they heard me speaking. The only places in Yorkshire, where I’m from, they had heard of were Leeds and York.


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## Argonia (Jun 30, 2021)

Sprocket. said:


> Americans asked me if I was Scottish when they heard me speaking. The only places in Yorkshire, where I’m from, they had heard of were Leeds and York.


Went dancing in Leeds when I lived in Todmorden. And a former girlfriend studied at York. Have never been but want to go to the Jorvik centre.


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## PR1Berske (Jun 30, 2021)

Sprocket. said:


> But the cud’nt gerrin through frunt doer, cos o’ virtual tin bath fulla virtual coal.



"When they knocked down our street, it were like t'war all o'er again. Rubble everywhere, dead bodies. Council shuda lerrus know."


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## Sprocket. (Jun 30, 2021)

PR1Berske said:


> "When they knocked down our street, it were like t'war all o'er again. Rubble everywhere, dead bodies. Council shuda lerrus know."


Council, luxury! National Coal Board owned ours.


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## NoXion (Jun 30, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> So that's the end of our interations you nasty little internet cunt.



You are such a snowflake.


----------



## hitmouse (Jun 30, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> hitmouse Sure, tell them you spend your days on the internet impressing people you will never meet with your 'so correct' politics.
> 
> Either that, or follow a range of twitter accounts that engage with local politics and political personages.


So local to you is Lambeth, right? I'm a bit confused cos, based on how you were sounding off about the Red Wall and that earlier, I was assuming that you had some kind of connection to Batley and Spen or something, but it now seems like, being charitable, your earlier posts could have been rephrased as "look at these idiots from Lambeth Labour getting involved in the Batley and Spen by-election, what do they know about life in Batley and Spen? If they were smart, they'd be taking advice from me, some fucking Londoner with no apparent connection to West Yorkshire." I mean, I wouldn't claim to be any great expert on West Yorkshire or anything, but I'm starting to suspect that compared to you I probably look like t'cunt who lost hat on Ilkley Moor.


Sprocket. said:


> But the cud’nt gerrin through frunt doer, cos o’ virtual tin bath fulla virtual coal.


Front door's for funerals, innit? Anyway, never mind virtual tin bath, where do you keep all t'dartboards and bog roll with pictures of Philip Normal's face on, that incredibly controversial Yorkshire figure that everyone in Yorkshire definitely has a strong opinion on?


----------



## Dystopiary (Jun 30, 2021)

Muslim women in Batley and Spen call out actions of ‘loud minority’ of men

In open letter women condemn behaviour that brought community ‘into limelight for all wrong reasons’ 

eta: Link fixed.


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## Raheem (Jun 30, 2021)

Dystopiary said:


> Muslim women in Batley and Spen call out actions of ‘loud minority’ of men​In open letter women condemn behaviour that brought community ‘into limelight for all wrong reasons’


Broken link, Dystopiary.


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## Loose meat (Jun 30, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> So local to you is Lambeth, right? I'm a bit confused cos, based on how you were sounding off about the Red Wall and that earlier, I was assuming that you had some kind of connection to Batley and Spen or something, but it now seems like, being charitable, your earlier posts could have been rephrased as "look at these idiots from Lambeth Labour getting involved in the Batley and Spen by-election, what do they know about life in Batley and Spen? If they were smart, they'd be taking advice from me, some fucking Londoner with no apparent connection to West Yorkshire." I mean, I wouldn't claim to be any great expert on West Yorkshire or anything, but I'm starting to suspect that compared to you I probably look like t'cunt who lost hat on Ilkley Moor.
> 
> Front door's for funerals, innit? Anyway, never mind virtual tin bath, where do you keep all t'dartboards and bog roll with pictures of Philip Normal's face on, that incredibly controversial Yorkshire figure that everyone in Yorkshire definitely has a strong opinion on?



This is the most bizarre read I've seen for quite a while, and that's just talking about the internet people. If Batley Labour came down to Angell Town with their flat caps, whippets and ferrets down their trosers and tried to explain to residents why they knew better than they did about how they should vote, they'd need an airlift to Kings. 

What that has to do with identifying regional dynamics and national strategies is an internet mystery, by-gum. You really need to spend less time impressing people you'll never meet and more time reading people like David Goodhart, Helen Thompson and Mark Blythe.


----------



## Dystopiary (Jun 30, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Broken link, Dystopiary.


Thanks. Should be sorted now.


----------



## belboid (Jun 30, 2021)

Same story here - Muslim women in Batley and Spen call out actions of ‘loud minority’ of men


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## hitmouse (Jun 30, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> This is the most bizarre read I've seen for quite a while, and that's just talking about the internet people. If Batley Labour came down to Angell Town with their flat caps, whippets and ferrets down their trosers and tried to explain to residents why they knew better than they did about how they should vote, they'd need an airlift to Kings.
> 
> What that has to do with identifying regional dynamics and national strategies is an internet mystery, by-gum. You really need to spend less time impressing people you'll never meet and more time reading people like David Goodhart, Helen Thompson and Mark Blythe.


That's as may be, but I don't think that's what's going on here. What's happening on this thread seems to be a bit more like if someone from Batley who had never been to London was loudly pontificating on how people in Angell Town might react to things, based on their own projection/ventriloquism of what people in that London might be like. I've never heard of Philip Normal before this week, but I've now decided I'm more interested in his opinions about Batley than yours, based solely on the fact that apparently he's been to the fucking place and talked to some people.


----------



## andysays (Jun 30, 2021)

ska invita said:


> voting for a smaller party that wont win in an election is a perfectly acceptable way of using a vote within the narrow confines of this democracy
> trying to send cryptic messages through votes/not voting is about as much power as you have at the ballot box, and if that message is We Hate Starmer, then fair enough. I voted I hate starmer at the last opportunity and will do again if hes still around. it wont change the outcome of my safe seat election, but it might make someone take notice and try and decipher the voting trend


Does this argument work for anyone who voted "I hate Cameron" five years ago?


----------



## killer b (Jun 30, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> David Goodhart, Helen Thompson and Mark Blythe.


stop trying to impress people you'll never meet on the internet


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 30, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Yes, representative democracy necessarily negates voter sovereignty, but in terms of 'responsibility' for the electoral outcome there are  surely gradations dependent upon whether or not the voter is favouring an incumbent (with a 'track record') or challenger and whether to not the selected candidate/party has a viable prospect of achieving a governing majority?


For socialists? For communists? For _anarchists_?

Or maybe voting could be seen as the ultimately apolitical action it is and the real political actions of people could be the basis of organising.


----------



## NoXion (Jun 30, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> You really need to spend less time impressing people you'll never meet and more time reading people like David Goodhart, Helen Thompson and Mark Blythe.



Literally who?


----------



## hitmouse (Jun 30, 2021)

NoXion said:


> Literally who?


One's a Cambridge prof, one's an Old Etonian, son of a Tory MP, from the Lehman Brothers family. You know, exactly the sort of people who've got the most insight into life in deindustrialised West Yorkshire towns.


----------



## killer b (Jun 30, 2021)

Mark Blythe is great tbf. Helen Thompson is the least unbearable presenter of Talking Politics podcast, David Goodhart I dunno much about. Still, they've all been read, some regularly by posters on this forum, I dunno who this freak imagines we are.


----------



## Loose meat (Jun 30, 2021)

In your case, a strange internet addict, projecting


hitmouse said:


> One's a Cambridge prof, one's an Old Etonian, son of a Tory MP, from the Lehman Brothers family. You know, exactly the sort of people who've got the most insight into life in deindustrialised West Yorkshire towns.


You ignorant fool. You don't even know essential commentators of the past decade.

Never mind, I'm sure you're huge on the internet.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jun 30, 2021)

those are clearly people I should definitely give a shit about yes


----------



## hitmouse (Jun 30, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> In your case, a strange internet addict, projecting
> 
> You ignorant fool. You don't even know essential commentators of the past decade.
> 
> Never mind, I'm sure you're huge on the internet.


_Gor blimey guv'nor, where's up norf?_


----------



## hitmouse (Jun 30, 2021)

I love essential commentators of the past decade. Where else can you hear the neglected, forgotten voices of left-behind Old Etonians with jobs at Policy Exchange?


----------



## Argonia (Jun 30, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> I love essential commentators of the past decade. Where else can you hear the neglected, forgotten voices of left-behind Old Etonians with jobs at Policy Exchange?


My headmaster at the Grammar School in Guildford Tim Young taught the dreaded David Cameron at Eton. He couldn't stand me for being a Socialist. I once wrote a short story in the school magazine about a serial killer and paedophile and his wife wanted it banned.









						List of headmasters of the Royal Grammar School, Guildford - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## Loose meat (Jun 30, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> I love essential commentators of the past decade. Where else can you hear the neglected, forgotten voices of left-behind Old Etonians with jobs at Policy Exchange?



Read the reviews and try to remember to change your pants once a week. 





__





						The Road to Somewhere: The New Tribes Shaping British Politics (Audio Download): David Goodhart, Simon Bubb, Penguin Books Ltd: Amazon.co.uk: Books
					

The Road to Somewhere: The New Tribes Shaping British Politics (Audio Download): David Goodhart, Simon Bubb, Penguin Books Ltd: Amazon.co.uk: Books



					www.amazon.co.uk


----------



## PR1Berske (Jun 30, 2021)

FridgeMagnet said:


> those are clearly people I should definitely give a shit about yes


They're all the rage at the Batley Wetherspoons.


----------



## Raheem (Jun 30, 2021)

PR1Berske said:


> They're all the rage at the Batley Wetherspoons.


Possible that Batley has more than one Wetherspoons, but it has one called the Union Rooms, which is a pretty good Wetherspoons. Newcastle also has one called the Union Rooms and these are the best two Wetherspoons I have been in.

This may not be very relevant or interesting, but I felt the thread could do with an aside.


----------



## hitmouse (Jun 30, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Possible that Batley has more than one Wetherspoons, but it has one called the Union Rooms, which is a pretty good Wetherspoons. Newcastle also has one called the Union Rooms and these are the best two Wetherspoons I have been in.
> 
> This may not be very relevant or interesting, but I felt the thread could do with an aside.


I had a mate who used to work in the (Newcastle, not Batley) Union Rooms for a while back in the day! Pretty sure I once thrown out of there for being underage as well (this was before my mate worked there).
Do you know about the Cardiff Wetherspoons with the very fancy toilets? They really are proper fancy, them toilets. There's also a pretty impressive one in Forest Hill that used to be an art deco cinema.


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## Raheem (Jun 30, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> I had a mate who used to work in the (Newcastle, not Batley) Union Rooms for a while back in the day! Pretty sure I once thrown out of there for being underage as well (this was before my mate worked there).
> Do you know about the Cardiff Wetherspoons with the very fancy toilets? They really are proper fancy, them toilets. There's also a pretty impressive one in Forest Hill that used to be an art deco cinema.


Haven't been in either of those.

The Moon Under Water in Manchester (also a Wetherspoons) is supposedly the world's biggest pub, but don't quote me.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 30, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> I had a mate who used to work in the (Newcastle, not Batley) Union Rooms for a while back in the day! Pretty sure I once thrown out of there for being underage as well (this was before my mate worked there).
> Do you know about the Cardiff Wetherspoons with the very fancy toilets? They really are proper fancy, them toilets. There's also a pretty impressive one in Forest Hill that used to be an art deco cinema.


pah 

grade 1 listed are they? These are the finest toilets i've been honoured to visit









						Liverpool pub with spectacular loos becomes first to be Grade I-listed
					

Philharmonic Dining Rooms first purpose-built pub in England to gain top heritage status




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Raheem (Jun 30, 2021)

two sheds said:


> pah
> 
> grade 1 listed are they? These are the finest toilets i've been honoured to visit
> 
> ...


Wow. That's a piss to put on my list.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 30, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Wow. That's a piss to put on my list.


while you're there ....

just down the road this is one of my favourite ever pubs, was there of a saturday afternoon oooh nearly 50 years ago with music ...









						The tiny Liverpool city pub that was loved by John Lennon
					

The Beatle was known to even take girls on dates to the pub




					www.liverpoolecho.co.uk


----------



## Raheem (Jun 30, 2021)

two sheds said:


> while you're there ....
> 
> just down the road this is one of my favourite ever pubs, was there of a saturday afternoon oooh nearly 50 years ago with music ...
> 
> ...


Looks nice but must be awkward to ask directions for.

_Can you show me the way to...

...hang on I'll start again..._


----------



## BillRiver (Jun 30, 2021)

two sheds said:


> while you're there ....
> 
> just down the road this is one of my favourite ever pubs, was there of a saturday afternoon oooh nearly 50 years ago with music ...
> 
> ...



I've been in there! I took myself and my brother on a self guided Beatles related tour of Liverpool when I was a teenager and it included that pub. My brother was living in Manchester at the time, in an all male student house with a disgusting toilet.


----------



## Rimbaud (Jun 30, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> I had a mate who used to work in the (Newcastle, not Batley) Union Rooms for a while back in the day! Pretty sure I once thrown out of there for being underage as well (this was before my mate worked there).
> Do you know about the Cardiff Wetherspoons with the very fancy toilets? They really are proper fancy, them toilets. There's also a pretty impressive one in Forest Hill that used to be an art deco cinema.



The Union Rooms in Newcastle is a great building, however it is no longer a Wetherspoons as of recently. I've never been in since it was under new ownership though.

I learned to drink there when I was 16. Me and a friend from a different school used to sometimes skip school together and meet up in town. He had a black blazer for his school uniform and my school uniform had a white shirt. Around lunch time the place was full of civil servants or something wearing suits and having a liquid lunch, I would wear his black blazer over my white shirt and try to pass myself off as a young looking civil servant in a suit to get served, right there in my school uniform.

Happy memories of that place.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 30, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Looks nice but must be awkward to ask directions for.
> 
> _Can you show me the way to...
> 
> ...hang on I'll start again..._




No need - just down the road


----------



## hitmouse (Jun 30, 2021)

There's also a Tunbridge Wells spoons that used to be an opera house, that always sounds like it'd be a proper fancy impressive spoons experience but unfortunately I have never had any other reason to go to Tunbridge Wells and going all that way just to sit in a fancy spoons feels like it'd be a bit excessive. Will definitely have to try and visit the Philharmonic some time though.


----------



## BillRiver (Jun 30, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> There's also a Tunbridge Wells spoons that used to be an opera house, that always sounds like it'd be a proper fancy impressive spoons experience



I expect that would have pretty decent toilets. I'd hope so anyway!


----------



## hitmouse (Jun 30, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Haven't been in either of those.
> 
> The Moon Under Water in Manchester (also a Wetherspoons) is supposedly the world's biggest pub, but don't quote me.


D'you know about why there's so many spoons called the Moon Under Water, btw? Comes from an Orwell essay about his ideal pub. Which always feels like a slightly sick joke to me, since as much as I appreciate a good cheap pub I don't think that JD Wetherspoons is quite what Orwell would have imagined the perfect pub being like.


----------



## BillRiver (Jun 30, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> D'you know about why there's so many spoons called the Moon Under Water, btw? Comes from an Orwell essay about his ideal pub. Which always feels like a slightly sick joke to me, since as much as I appreciate a good cheap pub I don't think that JD Wetherspoons is quite what Orwell would have imagined the perfect pub being like.



I didn't know that, but totally agree. Awful.


----------



## belboid (Jun 30, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> D'you know about why there's so many spoons called the Moon Under Water, btw? Comes from an Orwell essay about his ideal pub. Which always feels like a slightly sick joke to me, since as much as I appreciate a good cheap pub I don't think that JD Wetherspoons is quite what Orwell would have imagined the perfect pub being like.


I always mean to use the essay for what I would introduce as ‘the perfect pub quiz’

but most of the things he includes are shit now


----------



## BillRiver (Jun 30, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> D'you know about why there's so many spoons called the Moon Under Water, btw? Comes from an Orwell essay about his ideal pub. Which always feels like a slightly sick joke to me, since as much as I appreciate a good cheap pub I don't think that JD Wetherspoons is quite what Orwell would have imagined the perfect pub being like.



I'm sad he doesn't mention the toilets, in his imaginings.

If I was to describe my fantasy ideal pub I'd definitely mention the toilets.


----------



## hitmouse (Jun 30, 2021)

belboid said:


> I always mean to use the essay for what I would introduce as ‘the perfect pub quiz’
> 
> but most of the things he includes are shit now


I've never drunk a pint out of a strawberry-pink china mug, I'm curious about what I'm missing now. Being fair, I think most of the Wetherspoons called the Moon Under Water do tend to not have a piano in, so in that very specific respect I suppose you could say they're living up to Orwell's vision.


----------



## BillRiver (Jun 30, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> I've never drunk a pint out of a strawberry-pink china mug, I'm curious about what I'm missing now. Being fair, I think most of the Wetherspoons called the Moon Under Water do tend to not have a piano in, so in that very specific respect I suppose you could say they're living up to Orwell's vision.



But do they have children and chutes and plane trees and ladies bars? I think they do not.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 30, 2021)

belboid said:


> I always mean to use the essay for what I would introduce as ‘the perfect pub quiz’


Who performed "Something in the air"? That's my perfect pub quiz question


----------



## PR1Berske (Jun 30, 2021)




----------



## Southlondon (Jun 30, 2021)

JTG said:


> tbh, I don't think that many people in Batley would get a knock on the door from Philip Normal and immediately go "oh no, it's Philip Normal, the first HIV+ mayor" when he asks them if they're voting Labour or not.
> 
> In the north, which famously has no LGBTQ+ people and none of their relatives either


More likely they’ll just think “ oh another annoying London political activist with no connection to the area parachuted in to beg for our vote”


----------



## tim (Jun 30, 2021)

BillRiver said:


> I've been in there! I took myself and my brother on a self guided Beatles related tour of Liverpool when I was a teenager and it included that pub. My brother was living in Manchester at the time, in an all male student house with a disgusting toilet.


I remember when it had a beach, or at least a lorryload of sand dumped on an adjacent vacant lot.


----------



## Leighsw2 (Jun 30, 2021)

killer b said:


> Really though: you think there's something about this guy that would be particularly repugnant to the people of Batley & Spen - he just looks like a guy to me though? I'm pretty sure neither his HIV status, or where he's got the train from that morning are likely to come up on the doorstep, if those things are things people in Batley & Spen care about (I'm unconvinced). Yet his presence is somehow an indication that Labour want to lose - I don't get it?


Maybe the issue here is why does the Batley Labour Party need someone to come from Lambeth to help out with their election campaign? It does all feel very much like 'centrists together' (dear Philip being such a Progress-groupie as he is). I wonder what their ground game is like in such a pivotal bye-election? Apparently in Hartlepool they had to rely on office holders because no-one else turned up!


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## BillRiver (Jun 30, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Who performed "Something in the air"? That's my perfect pub quiz question



Thunderclap Newman?


----------



## two sheds (Jun 30, 2021)

You got it


----------



## Leighsw2 (Jun 30, 2021)

cuppa tee said:


> Hi, I’m from Lambeth and well aware of Mr Normal, Granted he’s a bit divisive amongst locals who know about him ( not that many) and regarded by some as a bit of a self publicist for his niche ‘designs’... nonetheless I think it’s possible you may be over estimating the power of his branding to offend politically even north of the River Thames let alone Batley and Spen.


Yes, agreed! I find his shop in Brixton Village pretty annoying. Other than that I don't have any strong feeling about him. But what is he doing in Batley? It's all very strange.....


----------



## BillRiver (Jun 30, 2021)

two sheds said:


> You got it



Tbh I googled it. Tis a good quiz question.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 30, 2021)

Is also one of the favourite tracks from my yoof.


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## BillRiver (Jun 30, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Is also one of the favourite tracks from my yoof.



It's a great track. Before my time, but I spent much of my teenage years in the 1980's listening to songs from the 1960's.


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## killer b (Jun 30, 2021)

Leighsw2 said:


> But what is he doing in Batley? It's all very strange.....



it's just what happens in elections isn't it? activists travel to campaign wherever they're needed 'cause they want their party to win.

I met a load of London Labour members campaigning in Preston for the locals the other month. it's not at all unusual.


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## two sheds (Jun 30, 2021)

BillRiver said:


> It's a great track. Before my time, but I spent much of my teenage years in the 1980's listening to songs from the 1960's.


I've said it before but I was too young so I remember the 60s it's the 70s I don't remember


----------



## two sheds (Jun 30, 2021)

killer b said:


> it's just what happens in elections isn't it? activists travel to campaign wherever they're needed 'cause they want their party to win.
> 
> I met a load of London Labour members campaigning in Preston for the locals the other month. it's not at all unusual.


How was it in Preston?


----------



## BillRiver (Jun 30, 2021)

two sheds said:


> I've said it before but
> 
> I've said it before but I was too young so I remember the 60s it's the 70s I don't remember



Too busy having fun in the 70s?


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## BillRiver (Jun 30, 2021)

BillRiver said:


> Too busy having fun in the 70s?



Like they say about Woodstock, if you can remember it you weren't there.


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## two sheds (Jun 30, 2021)

I think I was there in the 70s


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## BillRiver (Jun 30, 2021)

two sheds said:


> I think I was there in the 70s



I visited Woodstock, the place in New York state, in the 1990's. My New York uncle has a house there, as well as a flat in Mahattan.

I only really remember the thrift store, I was just 12 at the time. I'd never been in a shop that sold clothes by the kilo before, and I loved it.

I wasn't alive when Woodstock the festival happened. I wish!


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## Leighsw2 (Jun 30, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> ...I've never heard of Philip Normal before this week, but I've now decided I'm more interested in his opinions about Batley than yours...


Believe me, you probably aren't.


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## killer b (Jun 30, 2021)

two sheds said:


> How was it in Preston?


Labour did fine.


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## two sheds (Jun 30, 2021)

It does seem a model for what labour should be doing tbh

eta: labour local councils


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## RileyOBlimey (Jun 30, 2021)

The Guardian’s dog whistle is loud and clear: Muslim women in Batley and Spen call out actions of ‘loud minority’ of men


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## killer b (Jul 1, 2021)

two sheds said:


> It does seem a model for what labour should be doing tbh
> 
> eta: labour local councils


well I've said elsewhere there's more going on here shoring up the Labour vote than just the Preston Model - Preston isn't Hartlepool or Batley - it's really got more in common structurally with Labour's new city heartlands than it does with the old industrial seats in the red wall.


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## Southlondon (Jul 1, 2021)

I am an Ex long-standing Labour Party member who left the party because I believe the old coalition of left of centre entities that made up the party to secure working class representation in parliament needs to fragment. I personally want to see proportional representation so that new coalitions can be built between new left of centre groupings including elements of the green movement and excluding the adherents to neoliberal ideology. 
forgetting corbyn as an individual, what struck me from the 2 election campaigns under a leftist leadership was the energy and enthusiasm of the thousands of new members and activists, and the way in which their enthusiasm for change ( I accept it was  reformist as opposed to revolutionary but none the less it was A healthy shift in terms of Labour party policy) was so effectively crushed by the party right wingers who control the party Machine with an iron fist that Stalin would have been impressed by. It became blatantly clear they would rather  allow the tories to win than the Labour left to have a chance of forming a government and that their control is more or less absolute . . 
I  have spent a lifetime defending my presence in this disfunctional party to mates that put their energies into the plethora of little left wing ‘revolutionary’ parties on the basis that I’d rather live under a Labour government as opposed to a tory government  - NHS, health & safety legislation, equality act, workers rights etc, and the hope that if the left could wrest control we could see a far wider gap between a Labour or tory government and life would be far better for ordinary people than it is at present. I still can’t see myself joining the SWP/socialist party or whatever to sell papers to other lefties on drizzly Sunday morning marches through the back streets of the west end, but I know want to see the Labour Party put out of its misery quickly so that a new left coalition can be built minus the baggage of The neoliberal right wingers. 
If I lived up there I would probably be holding my nose and voting for Galloway in the hope of hastening the demise of Labour - putting it out of its misery so to speak


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## two sheds (Jul 1, 2021)

killer b said:


> well I've said elsewhere there's more going on here shoring up the Labour vote than just the Preston Model - Preston isn't Hartlepool or Batley - it's really got more in common structurally with Labour's new city heartlands than it does with the old industrial seats in the red wall.


the model wouldn't work in Hartlepool or Batley?


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## Leighsw2 (Jul 1, 2021)

killer b said:


> it's just what happens in elections isn't it? activists travel to campaign wherever they're needed 'cause they want their party to win.
> 
> I met a load of London Labour members campaigning in Preston for the locals the other month. it's not at all unusual.


Certainly this is true. I guess I'm wondering if Labour are struggling to get local activists on the ground to canvass (as apparently they did in Hartlepool) and so are having to rely on people from further afield. I mean, Brixton is quite far away from Batley!


----------



## Southlondon (Jul 1, 2021)

Leighsw2 said:


> Certainly this is true. I guess I'm wondering if Labour are struggling to get local activists on the ground to canvass (as apparently they did in Hartlepool) and so are having to rely on people from further afield. I mean, Brixton is quite far away from Batley!


 Vauxhall Labour Party ( includes  Brixton), is a massive branch with a lot of activists (mainly but not entirely right wingers) and they often send a coach of activists away for by-elections and marginals so this is not unusual


----------



## killer b (Jul 1, 2021)

I'm sure they are struggling to get local activists out mind. But busing in activists would have happened whatever, some weirdos like it on the doorstep.


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## belboid (Jul 1, 2021)

BillRiver said:


> Tbh I googled it. Tis a good quiz question.


It isn’t.  Not least because Tom Petty’s version is much better.  Too many variables and you can’t guess it from any other info.


----------



## Raheem (Jul 1, 2021)

belboid said:


> It isn’t.  Not least because Tom Petty’s version is much better.  Too many variables and you can’t guess it from any other info.


Think the idea is people are supposed to guess Phil Collins. Making people bring Phil Collins to mind and then not even giving them a point is pretty good quizmaster trolling.


----------



## belboid (Jul 1, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> I've never drunk a pint out of a strawberry-pink china mug, I'm curious about what I'm missing now. Being fair, I think most of the Wetherspoons called the Moon Under Water do tend to not have a piano in, so in that very specific respect I suppose you could say they're living up to Orwell's vision.


Wetherspoons did actually start out with various of the essays themes in mind.   An absolute was no music, drinkers should be able to hear each other’s conversations.  They also went for great old buildings (not necessarily Victorian).  They had a decent range including a beer in London for 79p a pint, back in 93.   Their food pretty much fills the prerequisites too.


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## Raheem (Jul 1, 2021)

belboid said:


> Wetherspoons did actually start out with various of the essays themes in mind.   An absolute was no music, drinkers should be able to hear each other’s conversations.  They also went for great old buildings (not necessarily Victorian).  They had a decent range including a beer in London for 79p a pint, back in 93.   Their food pretty much fills the prerequisites too.


Are you trying to tell me that George Orwell's legacy is Tim Wetherspoon?


----------



## belboid (Jul 1, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Are you trying to tell me that George Orwell's legacy is Tim Wetherspoon?


Its the nature of reformism, innit?


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## Raheem (Jul 1, 2021)

No music. But there should be a piano? Given Orwell was dead before the advent of the jukebox, that doesn't sound right.


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## belboid (Jul 1, 2021)

Raheem said:


> No music. But there should be a piano? Given Orwell was dead before the advent of the jukebox, that doesn't sound right.


“possesses neither a radio nor a piano”

a jukebox would be straight from the devil


----------



## Raheem (Jul 1, 2021)

belboid said:


> “possesses neither a radio nor a piano”
> 
> a jukebox would be straight from the devil


OK, so I misread what Hitmouse said above. The Orwellian ideal is no piano. And since he considered football to be "war without the fighting", he would probably jive with "no team colours" as well.


----------



## andysays (Jul 1, 2021)

Raheem said:


> OK, so I misread what Hitmouse said above. The Orwellian ideal is no piano. And since he considered football to be "war without the fighting", he would probably jive with "no team colours" as well.


He certainly wouldn't be in favour of watching the match on a TV screen in the pub...

Anyway, today's the big day...


----------



## tim (Jul 1, 2021)

Slim Labour victory because all the hubris will have gained more sympathy than she might otherwise have garnered. She is no longer the Establishment candidate and Galloway will have succeeded to some degree in presenting it as a right between him and her.


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 1, 2021)

Given where we are, if Labour lose by less that 4,000 I'll be relieved, and surprised.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 1, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Given where we are, if Labour lose by less that 4,000 I'll be relieved, and surprised.


Relieved?
Are you that invested in the Starmer project?


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 1, 2021)

I'm invested in the best platform to increase opportunity and justice.

I don't know who you are, so forgive me if I don't care what you think.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 1, 2021)




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## brogdale (Jul 1, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> I'm invested in the best platform to increase opportunity and justice.
> 
> I don't know who you are, so forgive me if I don't care what you think.


If you'd prefer that other posters don't ask you questions about the content that you post it might be helpful to include that in your status descriptor?

As to caring what other posters think; tends to be reap as you sow...if you don't care what others think...

All a bit odd tbh


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## Loose meat (Jul 1, 2021)

'tbh' I have no idea who you are and why you are interested.


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## PR1Berske (Jul 1, 2021)

Loose meat , in my short time "back" at this forum, I've seen you topic banned at least once and effectively shadowbanned twice: are you okay?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 1, 2021)

PR1Berske said:


> Loose meat , in my short time "back" at this forum, I've seen you topic banned at least once and effectively shadowbanned twice: are you okay?


That shows a good spirit


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 1, 2021)

PR1Berske said:


> Loose meat , in my short time "back" at this forum, I've seen you topic banned at least once and effectively shadowbanned twice: are you okay?




In that thread the Mod didn't like that I had fun with someone over-sharing about their job, here it's okay to call me a gay hater. I can't help it if that Mod was an inconsistent  cunt.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 1, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> 'tbh' I have no idea who you are and why you are interested.


That's also odd; are you only going to interact with posters that you "know"?
As to being interested or curious about what others think...I suspect that's one key reason that many posters use U75; without such curiosity I can't quite discern what might motivate you to join, stay and post.


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## Loose meat (Jul 1, 2021)

not going to fall for that. Need to be smarter.


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## brogdale (Jul 1, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> not going to fall for that. Need to be smarter.


There's nothing to 'fall for' there, nor any need for 'smartness'; quite simply if you don't want to be questioned by and/or don't value the views of other posters on here...what is it that motivates you to stay and post?


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## killer b (Jul 1, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> it's okay to call me a gay hater


it's more of a working assumption based on your posts about a gay man and refusal to explain what you mean by them tbh.


----------



## kenny g (Jul 1, 2021)

andysays said:


> He certainly wouldn't be in favour of watching the match on a TV screen in the pub...
> 
> Anyway, today's the big day...


Samuel Smith pubs model themselves on the Orwell ideal pub as well. Tis somewhere on the brewery s website. The owner is a notorious skinflint so I am sure he is happy with any model that can save him a penny.


----------



## Argonia (Jul 1, 2021)

kenny g said:


> Samuel Smith pubs model themselves on the Orwell ideal pub as well. Tis somewhere on the brewery s website. The owner is a notorious skinflint so I am sure he is happy with any model that can save him a penny.


Used to go to a Samuel Smith pub in London and play mah jong with my friends


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## PR1Berske (Jul 1, 2021)

kenny g said:


> Samuel Smith pubs model themselves on the Orwell ideal pub as well. Tis somewhere on the brewery s website. The owner is a notorious skinflint so I am sure he is happy with any model that can save him a penny.


I once used my smartphone in a Sam Smith's pub and felt such a thrill. Remember not to swear!


----------



## hitmouse (Jul 1, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> In that thread the Mod didn't like that I had fun with someone over-sharing about their job, here it's okay to call me a gay hater. I can't help it if that Mod was an inconsistent  cunt.


Why don't you have some jellied eels and a nice frothy coffee and maybe you'll calm down?


----------



## hitmouse (Jul 1, 2021)

.


----------



## PR1Berske (Jul 1, 2021)




----------



## PR1Berske (Jul 1, 2021)




----------



## Argonia (Jul 1, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Why don't you have some jellied eels and a nice frothy coffee and maybe you'll calm down?


Used to live near pie and mash and jellied eels shops in Hackney but never plucked up the courage to have a go


----------



## brogdale (Jul 1, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> I'm invested in the best platform to increase opportunity and justice.
> 
> I don't know who you are, so forgive me if I don't care what you think.


It's actually quite disappointing to see a poster express such a firm commitment to Starmer's Labour Party as a "platform to increase opportunity and justice" and then decline to discuss that position.

Maybe you'll change your mind and begin to engage in a more positive manner; who know's you might even enjoy the discussion?


----------



## Serge Forward (Jul 1, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Who performed "Something in the air"? That's my perfect pub quiz question


Did you know, it was originally titled "Revolution" but the Beatles brought out their own "Revolution" single a few days before, so Thunderclap changed the name of his single.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 1, 2021)

I didn't. I do love that track though from when I saw it on top of the pops with the man in the policeman's helmet playing piano  

I've heard one respectable cover of it but I don't believe there's a better version although I shall go off and check. Eta: Tom Petty version is good but TN still my favourite.


----------



## NoXion (Jul 1, 2021)

brogdale said:


> It's actually quite disappointing to see a poster express such a firm commitment to Starmer's Labour Party as a "platform to increase opportunity and justice" and then decline to discuss that position.
> 
> Maybe you'll change your mind and begin to engage in a more positive manner; who know's you might even enjoy the discussion?



How _dare_ you have the sheer front to ask him a question, you nasty internet cunt!


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 1, 2021)

brogdale said:


> It's actually quite disappointing to see a poster express such a firm commitment to Starmer's Labour Party as a "platform to increase opportunity and justice" and then decline to discuss that position.


Me? Like I'm the one calling people 'gay haters'? How should I respond to that.

No one here is minded to discuss anything, it seems. Literally eveyone attacks the person.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 1, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Literally eveyone attacks the person.


Errrrm ...


----------



## NoXion (Jul 1, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Me? Like I'm the one calling people 'gay haters'? How should I respond to that.



You mentioned a guy's HIV+ status as if it was relevant. Yet you've failed to clearly explain why.


----------



## kebabking (Jul 1, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Me? Like I'm the one calling people 'gay haters'? How should I respond to that.
> 
> No one here is minded to discuss anything, it seems. Literally eveyone attacks the person.



Bollocks.

It's very easy here to have interesting, thoughtful and nuanced discussions about all manner of stuff - but you won't get any of that of you simply broadcst your views, refuse to engage with others and call people 'nasty internet cunts'.

It's rather like real life in that way....


----------



## hitmouse (Jul 1, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Me? Like I'm the one calling people 'gay haters'? How should I respond to that.


You're the one who called everyone in Yorkshire gay haters, you big daft ha'porth!


----------



## PR1Berske (Jul 1, 2021)

BritainElects is running a poll if you are so inclined...


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 1, 2021)

kebabking said:


> Bollocks.
> 
> It's very easy here to have interesting, thoughtful and nuanced discussions about all manner of stuff - but you won't get any of that of you simply broadcst your views, refuse to engage with others and call people 'nasty internet cunts'.
> 
> It's rather like real life in that way....



And, the other U75 rule Loose meat is if you go in two footed you can expect similar treatment. Up to you how you choose to play the game ime


----------



## brogdale (Jul 1, 2021)

NoXion said:


> You mentioned a guy's HIV+ status as if it was relevant. Yet you've failed to clearly explain why.


This.

The beauty of these boards being that, although the poster appeared to be making homophobic assumptions, there is ample opportunity to explain how that perception might have been misplaced. 

Unfortunately, the responses thus far give the impression of an angry reaction at having been exposed.


----------



## andysays (Jul 1, 2021)

Serge Forward said:


> Did you know, it was originally titled "Revolution" but the Beatles brought out their own "Revolution" single a few days before, so Thunderclap changed the name of his single.


Did you know 2: Pete Townshend played produced and played bass, under the pseudonym of Bijou Drains?


----------



## brogdale (Jul 1, 2021)

Quite a contrast in the 2 party's respective final messaging.

The incumbent party:



> Today is Polling Day and the polls are open.  Vote for an MP who has lived and worked here for their entire life. Vote for an MP who will be a powerful voice for our community in Westminster and will always listen here at home. Please vote for me, Kim Leadbeater, today.



The challenger party:



> POLLS ARE OPEN NOW!  Vote Conservative today for:  MORE POLICE   MORE JOBS   MORE INVESTMENT  Together, let's secure the change that Batley & Spen needs.


----------



## glitch hiker (Jul 1, 2021)

Interesting, isn't it.

The challengers can make the correct argument while fooling some into forgetting that, despite being the challenger, they are responsible for the conditions they are campaigning against.

Meanwhile Bigot Galloway will fill in your potholes with his bear hands and make sure those nasty woke types won't be able to educate your kids about reality. 

I really hope he loses. I sometimes think that trumps even my desire for the Tories to fuck off. He really is a loathsome turd


----------



## Sprocket. (Jul 1, 2021)

Serge Forward said:


> Did you know, it was originally titled "Revolution" but the Beatles brought out their own "Revolution" single a few days before, so Thunderclap changed the name of his single.


O/T  But Jimmy McCulloch who played guitar in Thunderclap Newman, later played in Wings with Paul McCartney from 1974-1976. He died aged 26 in 1979 from a morphine overdose.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 1, 2021)

Sprocket. said:


> O/T  But Jimmy McCulloch who played guitar in Thunderclap Newman, later played in Wings with Paul McCartney from 1974-1976. He died aged 26 in 1979 from a morphine overdose.


and weirdly he'd stand a much better chance of winning this by-election than the labour candidate


----------



## glitch hiker (Jul 1, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> and weirdly he'd stand a much better chance of winning this by-election than the labour candidate


Call out the instigator


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 1, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Me? Like I'm the one calling people 'gay haters'? How should I respond to that.
> 
> No one here is minded to discuss anything, it seems. Literally eveyone attacks the person.


how should you respond to that? like an adult. if you can.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 1, 2021)

two sheds said:


> I didn't. I do love that track though from when I saw it on top of the pops with the man in the policeman's helmet playing piano
> 
> I've heard one respectable cover of it but I don't believe there's a better version although I shall go off and check. Eta: Tom Petty version is good but TN still my favourite.


Love that honky tonk piano


----------



## MickiQ (Jul 1, 2021)

If this is representative of the good folk of Batley and Spen (and of course there is no evidence it is) things do not look good


----------



## JTG (Jul 1, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> Meanwhile Bigot Galloway will fill in your potholes with his bear hands and make sure those nasty woke types won't be able to educate your kids about reality.


Galloway has long been an advocate of the right to bear arms. Glad it's paying off


----------



## magneze (Jul 1, 2021)

Will there be a 10pm exit poll? I know it's not normal for a byelection, but ... ?


----------



## belboid (Jul 1, 2021)

No, won’t get a result till early Friday morning.


----------



## hitmouse (Jul 1, 2021)

JTG said:


> Galloway has long been an advocate of the right to bear arms. Glad it's paying off


Oh, I've just realised that was a bare/bear confusion thing, on first reading that post I had honestly just gone "oh, George Galloway has huge bear-like paws or at least is claiming he does, fair enough."

Galloway repairing some roads in Batley recently.


----------



## Argonia (Jul 1, 2021)

Sorry to ask a dumb question that has no doubt been answered but I haven't been keeping up - when's the result?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 1, 2021)

Argonia said:


> Sorry to ask a dumb question that has no doubt been answered but I haven't been keeping up - when's the result?


Later tonight


----------



## Argonia (Jul 1, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Later tonight


Thanks mate


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 1, 2021)

Argonia said:


> Sorry to ask a dumb question that has no doubt been answered but I haven't been keeping up - when's the result?


probs won’t hear til tomorrow


----------



## brogdale (Jul 1, 2021)

Argonia said:


> Sorry to ask a dumb question that has no doubt been answered but I haven't been keeping up - when's the result?


Some might say the result was announced on 27 May, when the writ of election was made.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Jul 1, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Some might say the result was announced on 27 May, when the writ of election was made.


Others, who believe in a deterministic universe, might say the result was inevitable as soon as the Big Bang occurred.


----------



## Knotted (Jul 1, 2021)

My hunch is that Galloway's impact is overrated - he's going for stereotypical "muslim vote" ie. foreign policy and anti-lgbt. But that's a small 10% ish of the constituents many of whom will not recognise the political stereotype. The question is how well he does on local issues and as a protest vote. I'll be surprised if he breaks 5%.

I also think the Hancock scandal will nudge the Tories into second place. The pork barrel politics that won Hartlepool don't seem to be in play here.

Having made this prediction, I may well look very foolish tomorrow. But that's my inclinations at the minute. In this scenario Starmer will probably limp on until the next general election and that more generally Labour will be finished as both a party of social democracy or government but still too large to die or to allow room for a left alternative.


----------



## killer b (Jul 1, 2021)

A mate of mine reckons Galloway is going to scoop up a load of the populist right vote, which would be quite a feat if he did manage it.


----------



## RileyOBlimey (Jul 1, 2021)

What are the latest polls saying?


----------



## andysays (Jul 1, 2021)

RileyOBlimey said:


> What are the latest polls saying?


They don't publish polls on the day of an election, I think it's prohibited, and possibly for a few days before as well.


----------



## killer b (Jul 1, 2021)

There's only been one poll, a few weeks ago. Even this isn't very usual in a by-election, but people have been commissioning them in these Labour held seats for some reason (mischief mostly I think).


----------



## Funky_monks (Jul 1, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> I've never drunk a pint out of a strawberry-pink china mug, I'm curious about what I'm missing now. Being fair, I think most of the Wetherspoons called the Moon Under Water do tend to not have a piano in, so in that very specific respect I suppose you could say they're living up to Orwell's vision.


I've got a couple of earthenware pint mugs - they are very handy for homebrew. Not sure how different beer tastes out of them, but they don't get greasy fingerprints on them and they keep it cooler for longer.


----------



## Argonia (Jul 1, 2021)

Funky_monks said:


> I've got a couple of earthenware pint mugs - they are very handy for homebrew. Not sure how different beer tastes out of them, but they don't get greasy fingerprints on them and they keep it cooler for longer.


My stepdad got into homebrew in the 1990s and I remember going down into the cellar and pouring endless pints of foul elixir from a giant receptacle


----------



## Guineveretoo (Jul 1, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Haven't been in either of those.
> 
> The Moon Under Water in Manchester (also a Wetherspoons) is supposedly the world's biggest pub, but don't quote me.


It used to be the Wetherspoons in Cambridge that claimed that title. I think it was called the Regal. It used to be a cinema, and was on several levels. IIRC.


----------



## Argonia (Jul 1, 2021)

I love the way Urban75 threads always keep right on point with the topic at hand and don't meander off like the River Amazon.









						Meander - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## two sheds (Jul 1, 2021)

wait til we get going on the hidden dangers of avocados


----------



## brogdale (Jul 1, 2021)

Argonia said:


> I love the way Urban75 threads always keep right on point with the topic at hand and don't meander off like the River Amazon.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There'll be a test on the formation of Ox-bow lakes next time (remember to bring your coloured pencils as diagrams *must* be included).


----------



## Argonia (Jul 1, 2021)

brogdale said:


> There'll be a test on the formation of Ox-bow lakes next time (remember to bring your coloured pencils as diagrams *must* be included).


Oh yes I remember ox bow lakes from Geography GCSE. I was really bad at the subject and sat at the back of the class daydreaming about girls. When I did the project on the River Wey in Guildford I made up all the results but don't tell anyone and I won't either


----------



## PR1Berske (Jul 1, 2021)




----------



## brogdale (Jul 1, 2021)

Argonia said:


> Oh yes I remember ox bow lakes from Geography GCSE. I was really bad at the subject and sat at the back of the class daydreaming about girls. When I did the project on the River Wey in Guildford I made up all the results but don't tell anyone and I won't either


We only ever went on one Geography trip to go up on Crundale Downs to looks at some solifluxion (???) things. It was great; our teacher broke off the key in the ignition of the minibus, so we had hours just pissing around like loons on top of the downs on one of those summer evenings that really only exist in your youth.


----------



## PR1Berske (Jul 1, 2021)

Polling stations have closed.


----------



## tim (Jul 1, 2021)

killer b said:


> A mate of mine reckons Galloway is going to scoop up a load of the populist right vote, which would be quite a feat if he did manage it.


More of a surprise if he didn't


----------



## ska invita (Jul 1, 2021)

newsnight reporting labour people on the ground think theyve lost, worse than they expected

*doesnt mean much of course till the results are in


----------



## two sheds (Jul 1, 2021)

are they lying on the ground, depressed?


----------



## mx wcfc (Jul 1, 2021)

Argonia said:


> Oh yes I remember ox bow lakes from Geography GCSE. I was really bad at the subject and sat at the back of the class daydreaming about girls. When I did the project on the River Wey in Guildford I made up all the results but don't tell anyone and I won't either


On a school coach to an away match, I still remember the teacher standing up and shouting "Geography class - excellent example of an ox-bow lake coming up on the left".  

Everyone was like "and?".

These days, I find that sort of thing really interesting and wish I'd done geography at A level and then Uni.


----------



## PR1Berske (Jul 2, 2021)




----------



## PR1Berske (Jul 2, 2021)

Result:

(Typed live)

Result at 0521

CPA: 102
AGS: 104
Ind : 50
Galloway: 8,264
LD: 1,254
OMRLP: 107
Her: 33
Labour: 13,296
EngDem: 207
SDP: 66
Yorkshire: 816
Rejoin: 75
Conservat: 12973
UKIP: 151
Freedom: 100
For Britain: 97


LABOUR HOLD


----------



## PR1Berske (Jul 2, 2021)

Labour have held Batley and Spen


----------



## andysays (Jul 2, 2021)

PR1Berske said:


> Result:
> 
> (Typed live)
> 
> ...


That's a pretty close result in the end.

Galloway looks to have done better that I expected/hoped.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jul 2, 2021)

Would be very interesting to know where those Galloway votes would have gone if he was not standing.


----------



## tim (Jul 2, 2021)

I told you this is what would happen.


----------



## RileyOBlimey (Jul 2, 2021)

Fuck starmer and everyone who looks like him.


----------



## andysays (Jul 2, 2021)

redsquirrel said:


> Would be very interesting to know where those Galloway votes would have gone if he was not standing.


Yeah, it's not impossible that had Galloway not stood, the Tories would have won.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jul 2, 2021)

andysays said:


> Yeah, it's not impossible that had Galloway not stood, the Tories would have won.


That is my gut feeling, that Galloway acted as a point of discontent probably taking some votes from both parties but overall more potential Con, or at least anti-Lab, voters.

But it is supposition


----------



## RileyOBlimey (Jul 2, 2021)

Sky was trying their best to spin this as a wonderful success for Starmer. A majority of 323 should be the last nail in his coffin.


----------



## PR1Berske (Jul 2, 2021)

Batley and Spen by-election

LABOUR HOLD

K. Leadbeater (Labour) 13,296 [35.3 -7.4]
R. Stephenson (Con) 12,973 [34.4 -1.6]
G. Galloway (Workers) 8,264 [21.9 -]
T. Gordon (LibDem) 1,254 [3.3 -1.3]
C. Robinson (Yorkshire) 816 [2.2 -]
T. Hirst [Eng Dem] 207 [0.5 -]
J. Thomson [UKIP] 151 [0.4 -]
H. Hope [OMRLP] 107 [0.3 -]
M. Davies [AGS] 104 [0.3 -]
P. Bickerdike [CPA] 102 [0.3 -]
J. Tilt [FA] 100 [0.3 -]
A. Waters [FPA] 97 [0.3 -]
A. Smith [Rejoin] 75 [0.2 ]
O. Purser [SDP] 66 [0.1 -]
J. Fransen [Ind] 50 [0.1 -]
S. Laird [Heritage] 33 [0.1 ]


----------



## Dogsauce (Jul 2, 2021)

Interesting! Reckon Hancock probably lost this for the Tories, that’ll piss the vermin off.

curious to see Galloway’s take on this too.


----------



## RileyOBlimey (Jul 2, 2021)

50 votes for Jayda Fransen tho


----------



## edcraw (Jul 2, 2021)

redsquirrel said:


> That is my gut feeling, that Galloway acted as a point of discontent probably taking some votes from both parties but overall more potential Con, or at least anti-Lab, voters.
> 
> But it is supposition


You might be right but something’s really weird if he’s taken bites from the Tories (though something’s really weird that he gets large number of votes at all).


----------



## brogdale (Jul 2, 2021)

redsquirrel said:


> Would be very interesting to know where those Galloway votes would have gone if he was not standing.


He’s done the Tories a big favour; Starmer stays put.


----------



## steveseagull (Jul 2, 2021)

This proves, Labour can win byelections (just) when Keith keeps a low profile.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jul 2, 2021)

Honestly just happy to see the Strasserite Galloway humiliated and his Tory friends stumped for once.


----------



## Dogsauce (Jul 2, 2021)

brogdale said:


> He’s done the Tories a big favour; Starmer stays put.


At the same time, this and the Chesham one means the Tories don’t get to swagger about like they’re electoral gold, maybe just maybe people are seeing through their bullshit.  Although if they look in trouble come election time there will probably be no end of shit done hurriedly out of spite (like what happened with rail privatisation before ‘97)


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 2, 2021)

Winning a by-election on 13K ...


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 2, 2021)

Winning a by-election on 13K ...


----------



## two sheds (Jul 2, 2021)

I'd assume a sizeable sympathy vote for her being Jo Cox's sister.


----------



## Dom Traynor (Jul 2, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Winning a by-election on 13K ...


You can say that again.


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 2, 2021)

two sheds said:


> I'd assume a sizeable sympathy vote for her being Jo Cox's sister.



More a sympathy abstention, I suspect.


----------



## PR1Berske (Jul 2, 2021)

This is a bit rough and ready because I'm still waking up haha


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jul 2, 2021)

RileyOBlimey said:


> 50 votes for Jayda Fransen tho



Irresponsible of her to stand and split the fash vote that could otherwise have gone to Greasy Georgie.


----------



## tim (Jul 2, 2021)

edcraw said:


> You might be right but something’s really weird if he’s taken bites from the Tories (though something’s really weird that he gets large number of votes at all).


Why? He's a social conservative.


----------



## andysays (Jul 2, 2021)

redsquirrel said:


> That is my gut feeling, that Galloway acted as a point of discontent probably taking some votes from both parties but overall more potential Con, or at least anti-Lab, voters.
> 
> But it is supposition


That my guess ATM. As you say, would be interesting to see some analysis.

But given Galloway's pitch that he was going to win the seat and therefore depose Starmer, would be pretty ironic if he's had the exact opposite effect.


----------



## agricola (Jul 2, 2021)

Galloway threatening to legally challenge the result / saying banana republic a lot.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 2, 2021)

Demanding a recount?


----------



## agricola (Jul 2, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Demanding a recount?



and various other things:


----------



## Dogsauce (Jul 2, 2021)

agricola said:


> Galloway threatening to legally challenge the result / saying banana republic a lot.


Absurd, he can’t win it, he’s miles behind. Trump levels of delusion.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jul 2, 2021)

An important fallout from this result - one I suspect many pundits will overlook - is that Novara media’s Darren Bacardi will get so angry that the red-brown Putinbot he backed fucked it that he might burst out of one his incredibly tiny black t-shirts, Hulk-style.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jul 2, 2021)

agricola said:


> Galloway threatening to legally challenge the result / saying banana republic a lot.



It’ll be a banana Nutella republic once the gays and the wokes take over


----------



## Dogsauce (Jul 2, 2021)

Looks like barely any green vote, that’s generally where the left side of the Labour vote has been haemorrhaging in recent times, how could that have gone to fucking Galloway?


----------



## PR1Berske (Jul 2, 2021)

Galloway seems to think that a recount has to be granted. As a third party with no chance of winning, the Returning Officer is not obliged to grant that request. Had the Conservatives requested it, then the RO might have done so.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 2, 2021)

Jeff Robinson said:


> It’ll be a banana Nutella republic once the gays and the wokes take over


A tin-hat banana Nutella republic please 

Eta: fuck me he does bang on without saying very much


----------



## PR1Berske (Jul 2, 2021)




----------



## chilango (Jul 2, 2021)

A good result imo.

None of the Parties can be truly happy with that. 

_thumbs_


----------



## PR1Berske (Jul 2, 2021)




----------



## PR1Berske (Jul 2, 2021)




----------



## PR1Berske (Jul 2, 2021)




----------



## cupid_stunt (Jul 2, 2021)

I was amused to read elsewhere that GB News was running the overnight repeat of the Wootton show, so half an hour after the result, they were showing his panel of guests all suggesting the Tories would win.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jul 2, 2021)

PR1Berske said:


>




Christ he really is just Donald Trump in a shit hat isn't he?


----------



## killer b (Jul 2, 2021)

chilango said:


> A good result imo.
> 
> None of the Parties can be truly happy with that.
> 
> _thumbs_


I dunno about that, reckon Labour will be pretty happy with it.


----------



## chilango (Jul 2, 2021)

killer b said:


> I dunno about that, reckon Labour will be pretty happy with it.



They might be, but they're only fooling themselves if so.


----------



## Guineveretoo (Jul 2, 2021)

Dogsauce said:


> Absurd, he can’t win it, he’s miles behind. Trump levels of delusion.


He doesn’t want to win it. He wants Labour to lose it.


----------



## maomao (Jul 2, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Christ he really is just Donald Trump in a shit hat isn't he?


That's not fair. It's quite a nice hat.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jul 2, 2021)

chilango said:


> They might be, but they're only fooling themselves if so.



They manage to fool themselves about the ongoing appeal of technocratic, authoritarian right-centrism on a daily basis, I'm sure they'll take this in their stride.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 2, 2021)

killer b said:


> I dunno about that, reckon Labour will be pretty happy with it.



I’m happy as well, purely because it’s a working class area where the Tory strategy has failed. That’s important.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Jul 2, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I’m happy as well, purely because it’s a working class area where the Tory strategy has failed. That’s important.



Without the Hancock situation, they would probably have won.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 2, 2021)

cupid_stunt said:


> Without the Hancock situation, they would probably have won.



I think that’s probably right. I’m claiming anything positive can be drawn from it. It can’t. But the filth still lost


----------



## Rimbaud (Jul 2, 2021)

Did not expect Galloway to do so well, 22%!

I wonder if his anti-woke rhetoric picked up quite a few far right votes and ate into the Tory vote? I wouldn't have expected a Labour win with such a high vote share going to Galloway.


----------



## killer b (Jul 2, 2021)

chilango said:


> They might be, but they're only fooling themselves if so.


Most of us had written it off as an easy Tory win, that Labour managed to grind out a victory - and by the looks of it helped over the line by Galloway - will be a genuine cause for celebration at the party.


----------



## tim (Jul 2, 2021)

Guineveretoo said:


> He doesn’t want to win it. He wants Labour to lose it.


He probably thought he could win, just because he's done it twice before. He's going to accuse Labour Party officials or the local authority of malfeasance and try and force the result to be overturned in court and have the election rerun


----------



## PR1Berske (Jul 2, 2021)

As a wise Cllr. once told me, "A majority of one is a win, anything more is showing off"


----------



## Sprocket. (Jul 2, 2021)

two sheds said:


> I'd assume a sizeable sympathy vote for her being Jo Cox's sister.


She is local and seen to be more active in the community than Brabin appeared to be according to local Labour voters. Skin of teeth result, hopefully the community can start to rebuild itself.


----------



## chilango (Jul 2, 2021)

killer b said:


> Most of us had written it off as an easy Tory win, that Labour managed to grind out a victory - and by the looks of it helped over the line by Galloway - will be a genuine cause for celebration at the party.



Sure. But, deep down, they cannot be happy with grinding out a flukey hold. 

...can they?

(You're right, they probably can)

.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 2, 2021)

chilango said:


> Sure. But, deep down, they cannot be happy with grinding out a flukey hold.
> 
> ...can they?
> 
> ...


I suspect that, whilst they present as massively happy with the win, the backroom psephologists will be very concerned with the numbers.

After all, the next time there won't be a bereaved family member with all the residual sympathy/goodwill that must have carried.


----------



## PR1Berske (Jul 2, 2021)




----------



## The39thStep (Jul 2, 2021)

Galloway has announced legal action against Paul Mason


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 2, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Galloway has announced legal action against Paul Mason



I hope they both lose


----------



## brogdale (Jul 2, 2021)

Ben Walker in the Statesman has put together a quick response that contains a couple of interesting observations, which both present concerns/challenges for the victors:

,
&


----------



## Sprocket. (Jul 2, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I hope they both lose


They should have a fight using hammers.


----------



## Flavour (Jul 2, 2021)

I think Galloway and Rudy Giuliani would make a good tag team duo


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 2, 2021)

Sprocket. said:


> They should have a fight using hammers.



thought for the day right there!


----------



## two sheds (Jul 2, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I hope they both lose


Pretty well certain with legal actions, at least until they're resolved and sometimes afterwards.


----------



## JimW (Jul 2, 2021)

Labour might note that attempting to appeal to workers, even if largely just by the name you pick, isn't such a bad strategy.


----------



## MickiQ (Jul 2, 2021)

I managed to get about halfway through the Galloway report (41.4) before I decided why am I doing this, it's like listening to some drunk down the pub. Other than burning (other people's) money what is the point of legal action? If  the Conservatives aren't challenging the vote what does he imagine he can do?
Hardly a great victory for Labour though clinging on by 300 odd votes in what was until recently a safe seat, but probably enough to quieten down talk of a coup in the party for the moment.


----------



## killer b (Jul 2, 2021)

brogdale said:


> I suspect that, whilst they present as massively happy with the win, the backroom psephologists will be very concerned with the numbers.
> 
> After all, the next time there won't be a bereaved family member with all the residual sympathy/goodwill that must have carried.


I dunno if there's anything in the numbers that would tell them anything that hasn't already been made abundantly clear by the recent by-election / local election results - and they could reasonably claim that the numbers are actually moving.


----------



## platinumsage (Jul 2, 2021)

The best result for the Tories, because Starmer has a non-resounding victory meaning he lumbers on. I guess like with Corbyn they’d rather the devil they know.


----------



## Serge Forward (Jul 2, 2021)

maomao said:


> That's not fair. It's quite a nice hat.


The hat's fine, it's just the cunt under it that's the problem, the twat in the hat.


----------



## Argonia (Jul 2, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Galloway has announced legal action against Paul Mason


Sorry The39thStep haven't followed this; why?


----------



## brogdale (Jul 2, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> The best result for the Tories, because Starmer has a non-resounding victory meaning he lumbers on. I guess like with Corbyn they’d rather the devil they know.


Especially a tame, ineffective and not very popular 'devil'.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 2, 2021)

Argonia said:


> Sorry The39thStep haven't followed this; why?


defamation


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 2, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> The best result for the Tories, because Starmer has a non-resounding victory meaning he lumbers on. I guess like with Corbyn they’d rather the devil they know.


The best result for the tories would have been them winning the seat. The red wall narrative would have rolled on, and Johnson and co could have concluded that even events like the Hancock mask slip - showing in 4D the utter contempt they hold ordinary people in - was no impediment in post industrial areas. I’m delighted they’ve had a kick in the bollocks.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Jul 2, 2021)

Argonia said:


> Sorry The39thStep haven't followed this; why?


----------



## hitmouse (Jul 2, 2021)

Dogsauce said:


> Looks like barely any green vote, that’s generally where the left side of the Labour vote has been haemorrhaging in recent times, how could that have gone to fucking Galloway?


Seems like the left side of the Labour vote or at least a chunk of it might have stayed as a Labour vote this time?


----------



## hitmouse (Jul 2, 2021)

cupid_stunt said:


>



Guessing MOATS means like "mother of all something or other", but to me it makes it sound a bit like they're going to have to send Gazza in after Galloway with some cans of Carlsberg and fried chicken.


----------



## PR1Berske (Jul 2, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Guessing MOATS means like "mother of all something or other", but to me it makes it sound a bit like they're going to have to send Gazza in after Galloway with some cans of Carlsberg and fried chicken.


It's the name of his RT show, "Mother of all talk shows"


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 2, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Seems like the left side of the Labour vote or at least a chunk of it might have stayed as a Labour vote this time?


Debatable imo if voting Green is left tbh. I'm more interested where the w/class vote went.


----------



## Diamond (Jul 2, 2021)

Wow - what a result.  British politics is so unpredictable at the moment.  Very interesting.  Lots of predictions looking rather foolish this morning, including my own.


----------



## Argonia (Jul 2, 2021)

Nice to see the Liberal Democrats down. I voted for them tacttically in Oxford in my first election in 1997 to get Major out but never voted again as I'm not a Liberal and they are not proper William Ewart Gladstone Liberals.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 2, 2021)

.


----------



## pbsmooth (Jul 2, 2021)

Galloway desperate to hold on to this attention anyway he can


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jul 2, 2021)

Serge Forward said:


> The hat's fine, it's just the cunt under it that's the problem, the twat in the hat.



Fedoras are fine… if you’re a 17-year-old internet-based new atheist who’s memorised all the Wikipedia entries on ‘logical fallacies’. Actually, come to think of it, it’s not fine at all.


----------



## killer b (Jul 2, 2021)

Diamond said:


> Lots of predictions looking rather foolish this morning, including my own.


I'm enjoying the instant pivot to 'actually this is a terrible result for Labour' on the thread though.


----------



## Argonia (Jul 2, 2021)

From Momentum - apologies if posted up already:

In 2019, Corbyn’s Labour won the seat with 42.7% of the vote. Today we won with 35%. *That is a worrying trend*. We can’t pretend that this was a general election winning performance. If our vote share declined by the amount it did last night in a GE *we would be reduced to a rump party*.









						Rump Parliament - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 2, 2021)

killer b said:


> I'm enjoying the instant pivot to 'actually this is a terrible result for Labour' on the thread though.


Of course it's a terrible result for labour

If they'd lost starmer would be out. An excellent result for starmer. A shit result for labour.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 2, 2021)

Argonia said:


> From Momentum - apologies if posted up already:
> 
> In 2019, Corbyn’s Labour won the seat with 42.7% of the vote. Today we won with 35%. *That is a worrying trend*. We can’t pretend that this was a general election winning performance. If our vote share declined by the amount it did last night in a GE *we would be reduced to a rump party*.
> 
> ...


They're already a party full of arses


----------



## brogdale (Jul 2, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Seems like the left side of the Labour vote or at least a chunk of it might have stayed as a Labour vote this time?


LP had a 41% decline in votes on a 28% decline in turnout; still looks like a lot of stay-at-home from their former 'core'; whether they're 'left' or not, who can say?


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 2, 2021)

killer b said:


> I'm enjoying the instant pivot to 'actually this is a terrible result for Labour' on the thread though.


Yes I thought the Tories, aided by Galloways intervention, would win it. I also like the idea that having voted for Starmer to be leader that the Labour Party members are now somehow prisoners of him and require liberation.


----------



## bemused (Jul 2, 2021)

killer b said:


> I'm enjoying the instant pivot to 'actually this is a terrible result for Labour' on the thread though.


Not winning big enogh.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 2, 2021)

killer b said:


> I'm enjoying the instant pivot to 'actually this is a terrible result for Labour' on the thread though.


Fairly guaranteed as either outcome had downsides, and Starmer taking comfort and gaining security is a very real downside for their future electoral prospects.


----------



## JTG (Jul 2, 2021)

A win is a win is a win

The direction of various currents within the result - the suggestion above of m/c Tories voting Labour, where Galloway's votes came from, how many Labour inclined people stayed home etc - is the interesting bit. One which we can continue to speculate on all day 😊


----------



## brogdale (Jul 2, 2021)

Tory votes declined 32% on a 28% fall in turnout.


----------



## Argonia (Jul 2, 2021)

Nice to see the Heritage Party came bottom with 33


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 2, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Fairly guaranteed as either outcome had downsides, and Starmer taking comfort and gaining security is a very real downside for their future electoral prospects.


Explain the logic behind  "Starmer taking comfort and gaining security is a very real downside for their future electoral prospects." please


----------



## brogdale (Jul 2, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Explain the logic behind  "Starmer taking comfort and gaining security is a very real downside for their future electoral prospects." please


He's shite.


----------



## killer b (Jul 2, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Tory votes declined 32% on a 28% fall in turnout.


these numbers don't mean anything, it's a by-election. of course the turnout is down.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 2, 2021)

Argonia said:


> Nice to see the Heritage Party came bottom with 33


The gaggle of far right grouplets got absolutely trashed


----------



## brogdale (Jul 2, 2021)

killer b said:


> these numbers don't mean anything, it's a by-election. of course the turnout is down.


Oh; OK.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 2, 2021)

brogdale said:


> He's shite.


We deserve a better analysis  than that


----------



## brogdale (Jul 2, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> We deserve a better analysis  than that


That's all Starmer deserves.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 2, 2021)

Well putting the vote % numbers another way...

Lab saw a net decline of 13% (beyond turnout decline from 2019)
Con saw a net decline of   4% (beyond turnout decline from 2019)


----------



## Dogsauce (Jul 2, 2021)

It’s the sort of result that means every cunt can put their own spin on it. What all the media pundits make of it will reflect their own beliefs and desires regardless of why people voted which way or why people came out to vote and others didn’t.

At least it takes a bit of swagger out of the tories, maybe it’ll start a narrative of Johnson being a vote-loser and start sowing chaos in their ranks for a change.


----------



## glitch hiker (Jul 2, 2021)

Glad to see Galloway fulminating, threatening lawsuits. All he has, threats and bullying. Hot air in a shit hat


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Jul 2, 2021)

Argonia said:


> Nice to see the Heritage Party came bottom with 33


Yeah, but if you multiply 33 by 666, add the date of Hitler's birthday in reverse order and then do some other esoteric mathematics I think you'll find they very nearly achieved a significant result. AND they'll probably do better next time.


----------



## killer b (Jul 2, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Well putting the vote % numbers another way...
> 
> Lab saw a net decline of 13% (beyond turnout decline from 2019)
> Con saw a net decline of   4% (beyond turnout decline from 2019)


Why are you putting them this way though? Anyone can look at the results and see that by the commonly understood way of presenting the figures - the way that allows easy comparison with previous results and other seats - Labour's vote share has declined by 7.4%, and the Tory vote share by 1.6%.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 2, 2021)

JTG said:


> A win is a win is a win
> 
> The direction of various currents within the result - the suggestion above of m/c Tories voting Labour, where Galloway's votes came from, how many Labour inclined people stayed home etc - is the interesting bit. One which we can continue to speculate on all day 😊


Psephology - mind games for the middle classes


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Jul 2, 2021)

According to Martin Wright, the voter turnout was just 40%.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 2, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Psephology - mind games for the middle classes


Related to psephomancy: "divination by pebbles".


----------



## Argonia (Jul 2, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Related to psephomancy: "divination by pebbles".


I much prefer tea leaves


----------



## pbsmooth (Jul 2, 2021)

does anyone know if Galloway wore a hat?


----------



## killer b (Jul 2, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> According to Martin Wright, the voter turnout was just 40%.


47% according to wikipedia - fairly typical, maybe on the high side


----------



## andysays (Jul 2, 2021)

Anyone know off the top of their head how close the vote would normally have to be before anyone can ask for a recount?


----------



## ohmyliver (Jul 2, 2021)

I see Galloway's ideology has condensed down to seizing the means of his reproduction


----------



## cupid_stunt (Jul 2, 2021)

andysays said:


> Anyone know off the top of their head how close the vote would normally have to be before anyone can ask for a recount?



IIRC, within 1%


----------



## ohmyliver (Jul 2, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> I managed to get about halfway through the Galloway report (41.4) before I decided why am I doing this, it's like listening to some drunk down the pub. Other than burning (other people's) money what is the point of legal action? If  the Conservatives aren't challenging the vote what does he imagine he can do?
> Hardly a great victory for Labour though clinging on by 300 odd votes in what was until recently a safe seat, but probably enough to quieten down talk of a coup in the party for the moment.


Going by the US right, legal action is a _really_ great way of grifting, as you can pay yourself things like absurdly high expenses from funds raised to fight it


----------



## Raheem (Jul 2, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Christ he really is just Donald Trump in a shit hat isn't he?


He's complaining that Kirklees council didn't offer him a cup of coffee after the count!


----------



## Sue (Jul 2, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Galloway has announced legal action against Paul Mason


What about?

ETA Should've continued reading the thread.  

Know Galloway is teetotal so he'd have been sober but he certainly comes across as shouty and a bit pissed in that 'defamation' clip.


----------



## rekil (Jul 2, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Galloway has announced legal action against Paul Mason


The demonic zio-analite Paul Mason. 😈


----------



## Serge Forward (Jul 2, 2021)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Fedoras are fine… if you’re a 17-year-old internet-based new atheist who’s memorised all the Wikipedia entries on ‘logical fallacies’. Actually, come to think of it, it’s not fine at all.


 I remember seeing a fine photograph from the Spanish revolution showing hat workers demonstrating against the fashion of not wearing hats. Heroes all.


----------



## Argonia (Jul 2, 2021)

Serge Forward said:


> I remember seeing a fine photograph from the Spanish revolution showing hat workers demonstrating against the fashion of not wearing hats. Heroes all.


My mum told me what it was like in the 1950s and 1960s where everybody wore hats to denote their class status and then suddenly nobody did anymore


----------



## Serge Forward (Jul 2, 2021)

It was the fashionable haircut that did for the noble hat. It messed with the teddy boys' quiffs and DAs. Now, with so many No1 cropped baldies about, there's no excuse for not wearing hats.


----------



## Serge Forward (Jul 2, 2021)

Argonia said:


> My mum told me what it was like in the 1950s and 1960s where everybody wore hats to denote their class status and then suddenly nobody did anymore


----------



## Argonia (Jul 2, 2021)

Serge Forward said:


> It was the fashionable haircut that did for the noble hat. It messed with the teddy boys' quiffs and DAs. Now, with so many No1 cropped baldies about, there's no excuse for not wearing hats.


I'm a number one crop. Shaved my head grade 2 at school and the headmaster pulled me out of assembly and bollocked me and I got a week off school which was great as I could relax and watch Going for Gold and Turnabout and Neighbours and Home and Away


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 2, 2021)

Argonia said:


> I'm a number one crop. Shaved my head grade 2 at school and the headmaster pulled me out of assembly and bollocked me and I got a week off school which was great as I could relax and watch Going for Gold and Turnabout and Neighbours and Home and Away


Evidence of a mis-spent youth


----------



## Argonia (Jul 2, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Evidence of a mis-spent youth











						Youth (Conrad short story) - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 2, 2021)

Argonia said:


> Youth (Conrad short story) - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It is of that work that it was first said that 'youth' is wasted on the young


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Jul 2, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> It is of that work that it was first said that 'youth' is wasted on the young


I always thought that was an Oscar Wilde quote for some reason. Perhaps I was mistaken.

Edit: according to google it was George Bernard Shaw.


----------



## Serge Forward (Jul 2, 2021)

Argonia said:


> I'm a number one crop. Shaved my head grade 2 at school and the headmaster pulled me out of assembly and bollocked me and I got a week off school which was great as I could relax and watch Going for Gold and Turnabout and Neighbours and Home and Away


I recall Going for Gold to be the ultimate Euro-quiz, back in the days when I was supping my Special Brew and watching Doletime TV. Whatever happened to Henry Kelly?

I may have missed it, but have we talked about sausages yet?


----------



## Argonia (Jul 2, 2021)

Serge Forward said:


> I recall Going for Gold to be the ultimate Euro-quiz, back in the days when I was supping my Special Brew and watching Doletime TV. Whatever happened to Henry Kelly?
> 
> I may have missed it, but have we talked about sausages yet?


Kelly is still going I think somewhere local but went bankrupt at some stage.









						Henry Kelly - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




Tried a Special Brew again about four years ago and could make no headway with it at all.


----------



## Sue (Jul 2, 2021)

Serge Forward said:


> I recall Going for Gold to be the ultimate Euro-quiz, back in the days when I was supping my Special Brew and watching Doletime TV. Whatever happened to Henry Kelly?
> 
> I may have missed it, but have we talked about sausages yet?


It did always feel a bit unfair on the non-native English speakers...


----------



## Argonia (Jul 2, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> I always thought that was an Oscar Wilde quote for some reason. Perhaps I was mistaken.
> 
> Edit: according to google it was George Bernard Shaw.


I haven't read much Shaw yet but found out the other day - if my Wikipedia is right - that he was one of the phalanx of men and women who had an affair with Marlene Dietrich


----------



## Raheem (Jul 2, 2021)

Argonia said:


> I haven't read much Shaw yet but found out the other day - if my Wikipedia is right - that he was one of the phalanx of men and women who had an affair with Marlene Dietrich


Hmmm. There would have been quite an age difference.


----------



## Argonia (Jul 2, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Hmmm. There would have been quite an age difference.


Marlene's life was unbelievable. I really don't know how she fitted it all in.


----------



## ska invita (Jul 2, 2021)

brogdale said:


> I suspect that, whilst they present as massively happy with the win, the backroom psephologists will be very concerned with the numbers.
> 
> After all, the next time there won't be a bereaved family member with all the residual sympathy/goodwill that must have carried.


She seemed a fairly good candidate too tbf, - positive and energetic at least - only heard her speak for the first time a couple of days ago


killer b said:


> I'm enjoying the instant pivot to 'actually this is a terrible result for Labour' on the thread though.


scraping through by 300 votes in what is meant to be a safe seat with good fortune of national events and a LOCAL candidate who wouldn't even put Labour on her leaflets remains pisspoor by any account


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Jul 2, 2021)

Serge Forward said:


> It was the fashionable haircut that did for the noble hat. It messed with the teddy boys' quiffs and DAs. Now, with so many No1 cropped baldies about, there's no excuse for not wearing hats.


I remember my dad telling me that, pre WW2 I think, if a bloke went out hatless people would shout out 'NHB ', which stood for 'No Hat Brigade'.


----------



## hitmouse (Jul 2, 2021)

Serge Forward said:


> It was the fashionable haircut that did for the noble hat. It messed with the teddy boys' quiffs and DAs. Now, with so many No1 cropped baldies about, there's no excuse for not wearing hats.


This reminds me I was meaning to start a "Jack Terricloth RIP" thread. 



The ranks of notable hat-wearing anarchists are decreased by one as of May 2021.


----------



## killer b (Jul 2, 2021)

ska invita said:


> scraping through by 300 votes in what is meant to be a safe seat with good fortune of national events and a LOCAL candidate who wouldn't even put Labour on her leaflets remains pisspoor by any account


It's ok to have called it wrong. I did too.


----------



## andysays (Jul 2, 2021)

cupid_stunt said:


> IIRC, within 1%


So if there's a 0.9% margin, looks like the Tory might be justified in calling for a re-count.

Did Galloway qualify his call with "asking for a friend"?


----------



## ska invita (Jul 2, 2021)

killer b said:


> It's ok to have called it wrong. I did too.


believe it or not this isnt about some shit timewasting predictions game < theres nothing more depressing  than playing at predicting the near political future and thinking that has anything to do with politics. who give a fuck about that? a sign of utter passivity, watching from the sidelines at car crash after car crash. 

believe it or not id like to see some kind of meaningful political change in this country and starmer limping along, calling a pathetic result like this a "fantastic victory" and likely believing it just adds to the delusional pit that is labour right now, and drags this shit out longer and longer. so sick of it


----------



## tony.c (Jul 2, 2021)

Argonia said:


> My mum told me what it was like in the 1950s and 1960s where everybody wore hats to denote their class status and then suddenly nobody did anymore


----------



## Argonia (Jul 2, 2021)

tony.c said:


>



A classic tony.c


----------



## tim (Jul 2, 2021)

brogdale said:


> LP had a 41% decline in votes on a 28% decline in turnout; still looks like a lot of stay-at-home from their former 'core'; whether they're 'left' or not, who can say?


Turn out is nearly always much lower at by-elections than at general elections


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 2, 2021)

ska invita said:


> She seemed a fairly good candidate too tbf, - positive and energetic at least - only heard her speak for the first time a couple of days ago
> 
> scraping through by 300 votes in what is meant to be a safe seat with good fortune of national events and a LOCAL candidate who wouldn't even put Labour on her leaflets remains pisspoor by any account


Starmer's supporters will make sure that he gets credit for the selection of the candidate who wasn't chosen by the constituency and wasn't a member until recently as being decisive leadership. Whilst she couldn't commit herself to issues like paying nurses , her job apparently is to be part of those conversations, she was local , stood her ground against bullies and the campaign no doubt strengthened by not having Starmer prominent in it despite local beers sales taking a hit.

As for safe seat , its certainly was not marginal, until now but the Tories didn't have the Brexit Party to contend with this time who took a fair chunk of votes two elections ago and didnt have this time the HWI who took 12% last election. Overall I think the local Tories and some backbenchers will be disappointed with the campaign they ran and obviously with Hancock possibly  Johnsons handling of it. I think the Tories saw that as winnable and would have expected to have done better tbh. 

As for Starmer and Labour its keeps what looked like an inevitable turning in to quell rumours of a leadership fight from the door for a good three months or so and avoids headlines of Labour is in disarray.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 2, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> This reminds me I was meaning to start a "Jack Terricloth RIP" thread.
> View attachment 276404
> View attachment 276405
> View attachment 276406
> The ranks of notable hat-wearing anarchists are decreased by one as of May 2021.


----------



## kebabking (Jul 2, 2021)

It's good news and bad news for labour - and Starmer, or without Starmer - it's good news in the immediate term, it's bought them a bit of breathing space, and not just Starmers 'leadership': if he was to be forced out and replaced by whatever wing of the party after the loss of B&S it would be yet another panicky reaction to bad news, and panicky reactions rarely work out in the long term.

The bad news of course is more long term and existential: if, as the party of the working class and aspirant MC, you're scrapping 300 vote majorities in a const like B&S, or losing in Hartlepool, while the incumbent govt has presided ovr a catastrophically poor pandemic response, and a week after the health secretary has been caught both with his fingers in the till, and to be dipping his pen in the company ink, then you have a problem, and it's not one restricted to the leader, or policies...


----------



## Calamity1971 (Jul 2, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> Hot air in a shit hat


Soon to be consumed .


----------



## Doodler (Jul 2, 2021)

Argonia said:


> A classic tony.c


For the 21st century:

"I have a blue checkmarked Twitter account and have thousands of followers but rarely follow back."

"I have a standard Twitter account and I follow blue checkmarked Twitter accounts but hardly anyone follows me."

"I'm on Facebook."


----------



## chilango (Jul 2, 2021)

killer b said:


> I'm enjoying the instant pivot to 'actually this is a terrible result for Labour' on the thread though.


Not really a pivot on my part TBF.


----------



## Argonia (Jul 2, 2021)

Doodler said:


> For the 21st century:
> 
> "I have a blue checkmarked Twitter account and have thousands of followers but rarely follow back."
> 
> ...


The blue checkmarked Estbalishment crowd do my head in. I tweet them and they never reply and don't listen to a word I have to say.


----------



## NoXion (Jul 2, 2021)

Doodler said:


> For the 21st century:
> 
> "I have a blue checkmarked Twitter account and have thousands of followers but rarely follow back."
> 
> ...



What if you have loads of followers but no blue checkmark?


----------



## chilango (Jul 2, 2021)

Delusional Twitter nonsense on what a great win it was


----------



## chilango (Jul 2, 2021)

...on a par with a United manager closing that getting Phil Jones back from injury will be like a new signing.


----------



## Doodler (Jul 2, 2021)

NoXion said:


> What if you have loads of followers but no blue checkmark?


Then you, sir, are an arriviste.


----------



## killer b (Jul 2, 2021)

ska invita said:


> believe it or not this isnt about some shit timewasting predictions game < theres nothing more depressing  than playing at predicting the near political future and thinking that has anything to do with politics. who give a fuck about that? a sign of utter passivity, watching from the sidelines at car crash after car crash.
> 
> believe it or not id like to see some kind of meaningful political change in this country and starmer limping along, calling a pathetic result like this a "fantastic victory" and likely believing it just adds to the delusional pit that is labour right now, and drags this shit out longer and longer. so sick of it


I have serious doubts that a loss in B&S would have been a killer blow to Starmer - he would have limped on regardless. It's largely irrelevant as far as that's concerned IMO. 

I do think that if we're wanting to draw lessons from this by-election, one more pressing thing for some people on this thread - and elsewhere - is to reflect on how they found themselves advocating voting for Galloway when one of his key campaign messages was one of explicit and graphic homophobia.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jul 2, 2021)

So much salt from Galloway I'm worried he'll get hypertension. But what point is he trying to convey in this bitter and petty tweet? Is it the LGBT flag and bisexuality that he thinks is damning or the identifying as a socialist and BLM supporter?


----------



## Serge Forward (Jul 2, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> View attachment 276415



Now this is an anarchist in a hat! Comrade Gueorgui Cheitanov:


----------



## chilango (Jul 2, 2021)

killer b said:


> I have serious doubts that a loss in B&S would have been a killer blow to Starmer - he would have limped on regardless. It's largely irrelevant as far as that's concerned IMO.
> 
> I do think that if we're wanting to draw lessons from this by-election, one more pressing thing for some people on this thread - and elsewhere - is to reflect on how they found themselves advocating voting for Galloway when one of his key campaign messages was one of explicit and graphic homophobia.



...or in the case of the likes of OJ and AB, despite being opposed to GG, still found themselves a little too obviously swept up in the hype.


----------



## Sue (Jul 2, 2021)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> I remember my dad telling me that, pre WW2 I think, if a bloke went out hatless people would shout out 'NHB ', which stood for 'No Hat Brigade'.


More of that sort of thing.


----------



## killer b (Jul 2, 2021)

chilango said:


> ...or in the case of the likes of OJ and AB, despite being opposed to GG, still found themselves a little too obviously swept up in the hype.


I dunno about that, I've not seen the interviews - I do note that most of the people digging in to them about them are people I don't trust to have a balanced view on it though,


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 2, 2021)

kebabking said:


> The bad news of course is more long term and existential: if, as the party of the working class and aspirant MC, you're scrapping 300 vote majorities in a const like B&S, or losing in Hartlepool, while the incumbent govt has presided ovr a catastrophically poor pandemic response, and a week after the health secretary has been caught both with his fingers in the till, and to be dipping his pen in the company ink, then you have a problem, and it's not one restricted to the leader, or policies...



I’d be careful about over reading too much into the size of the majority. Just to stop the run of defeats in ‘red wall’ areas is, I think, more significant at this stage. Your wider point is correct in my view.  The breathing space B&S buys Starmer won’t last long if the polls don’t shift and unless Labour begin to set out a vision - based around economic justice and addressing economic inequality - that speaks to people in places like Batley and Spen and elsewhere that people can mobilise around. If Biden can do it then surely Labour can???


----------



## chilango (Jul 2, 2021)

killer b said:


> I dunno about that, I've not seen the interviews - I do note that most of the people digging in to them about them are people I don't trust to have a balanced view on it though,


Sure.  The usual sort of suspects piling on is no surprise.

...but having watched the both in the run up it's undeniable that they were opposed to Galloway. yet at the same time found his hyped impact more seductive or exciting than they should have.

Easy to slip into. Many of us have done similar.

Just, as you say, an impulse we must consciously fight.


----------



## Argonia (Jul 2, 2021)

chilango said:


> Delusional Twitter nonsense on what a great win it was



I once sent Rentoul a fuirous tweet over his hagiography of Blair but he didn't respond


----------



## Supine (Jul 2, 2021)

Good analysis here


----------



## belboid (Jul 2, 2021)

You don’t really need much analysis to show why Galloway lost.

(aah, I see)


----------



## planetgeli (Jul 2, 2021)

The opposition are not meant to just about hold on in a by-election. The electoral system of FPTP has delivered a small breathing space to Labour because under that system a win is indeed a win. But it doesn't feel anything like 'the start' or that 'Labour is back'. FPTP aside this is a terrible result for Labour (and bad for the Tories too, who undoubtedly expected to win). Downward trend is downward and there's no walking away from that.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 2, 2021)

belboid said:


> You don’t really need much analysis to show why Galloway lost.
> 
> (aah, I see)


Galloway more ah you see


----------



## Calamity1971 (Jul 2, 2021)

Supine said:


> Good analysis here


----------



## DJWrongspeed (Jul 2, 2021)

planetgeli said:


> But it doesn't feel anything like 'the start' or that 'Labour is back'. FPTP aside this is a terrible result for Labour (and for the Tories too). Downward trend is downward and there's no walking away from that.


Agree things aren't great for Labour but is it necessarily a downward trend here. If Galloway hadn't stood for example? he picked up quite a big vote share.


----------



## Serene (Jul 2, 2021)

Boris has called Batley and Spen voters a bunch of ungrateful Northern Bastárds. He said he is redirectng HS2 through it, now, and cutting funding there. That place is dead, dead, dead, now, he said. Galloway agreed with Bojo.


----------



## Argonia (Jul 2, 2021)

Serene said:


> Boris has called Batley and Spen voters a bunch of ungrateful Northern Bastárds. He said he is redirectng HS2 through it, now, and cutting funding there. That place is dead, dead, dead, now, he said. Galloway agreed with Bojo.


Have you got a link to his anti-northern sentiment?


----------



## MickiQ (Jul 2, 2021)

DJWrongspeed said:


> Agree things aren't great for Labour but is it necessarily a downward trend here. If Galloway hadn't stood for example? he picked up quite a big vote share.


We'll never know how many of Galloway's fairly impressive vote share were Labour voters who deserted them for him thus reducing their margin or were Tory voters deserting them for him and thus denying them yet another victory.
Either way it's a shit result for Labour whichever way they try to paint it. In 2019 (which was Labours worst GE in decades) they held it by 3500 votes, 9000 votes in 2017 and 6000 votes in 2015.


----------



## kebabking (Jul 2, 2021)

DJWrongspeed said:


> gree things aren't great for Labour but is it necessarily a downward trend here. If Galloway hadn't stood for example? he picked up quite a big vote share.



He did, but you could easily look at it the other way - how many were fully in _meh..._ territory over Sir Keith's joyous and magnificent leadership, but who simply could not stand by while the Cunt Galloway spread his poison?

In GE those same people, absent Galloway's odious countenance, might well stay at home.

It also looks to me like a lot of Lib Dem's voters went for Ledbeater - though I take the view that BE's, and particularly _this_ BE have such a microclimate that distilling much on the wider political weather is somewhere between difficult and impossible. That said, I can't really see how anyone could argue that labour are in deep trouble....


----------



## PR1Berske (Jul 2, 2021)

Argonia said:


> Have you got a link to his anti-northern sentiment?


I suspect we're dealing with an attempt at satire.


----------



## Serene (Jul 2, 2021)

PR1Berske said:


> I suspect we're dealing with an attempt at satire.


OK I made it up. Yes its satire. Its funny because it is likely true.


----------



## Serene (Jul 2, 2021)

Argonia said:


> Have you got a link to his anti-northern sentiment?


OK I made it up. Yes its satire. Its funny because it is likely true.


----------



## planetgeli (Jul 2, 2021)

DJWrongspeed said:


> Agree things aren't great for Labour but is it necessarily a downward trend here. If Galloway hadn't stood for example? he picked up quite a big vote share.



It's all supposition but I would surmise Galloway took most of his votes from Labour. However, this doesn't mean they would have turned out for Labour if Galloway hadn't been there - much more likely they would have stayed at home.

Labour fielded an emotive candidate and that can't be underestimated in their win. I think many 'voted for Kim' as opposed to 'for Labour'. And at the final count, a victory of just over 300, that may well have made the difference. I don't see it as any sort of vote for Starmer. He'll get trounced again fairly soon in a more 'normal' by-election.


----------



## planetgeli (Jul 2, 2021)

kebabking said:


> That said, I can't really see how anyone could argue that labour *are i*n deep trouble....


Surely you mean 'aren't'?


----------



## chilango (Jul 2, 2021)

FFS


----------



## two sheds (Jul 2, 2021)

and of course for hats









						BBC Four - The Frost Report Is Back!, The Class Sketch
					

The famous 'class sketch' from 1960s satirical comedy series The Frost Report.




					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## kenny g (Jul 2, 2021)

Argonia said:


> Nice to see the Heritage Party came bottom with 33


Yes. Half the SDP which had half the monster raving loony 🌞


----------



## Raheem (Jul 2, 2021)

DJWrongspeed said:


> Agree things aren't great for Labour but is it necessarily a downward trend here. If Galloway hadn't stood for example? he picked up quite a big vote share.


It's impossible to know how many pro-Brexit votes he took from from the Tories, compared to how many votes he took from Labour, but I wouldn't assume it was more of the latter. He may well have made the difference in Labour's favour.


----------



## PR1Berske (Jul 2, 2021)

There have been four by-elections to this Parliament since 2019. Here are the cumulative votes for those parties at the 2019 general election and the by-elections so far (All my own work, errors likely.)




VotePercentageParty (2019 GE)PlaceParty (by-elections)PercentageVote68,79936.32Conservative*1*Conservative35.1644,80357,95230.59Labour*2*Labour24.2430,87920,20410.67Lib Dem*3*Lib Dem18.3223,34017,9299.47SNP*4*SNP7.9510,12912,2816.48Brexit*5*Workers6.498,2646,4323.40Heavy Woollen Ind*6*Independent S. Lee2.282,9043,7341.97Greens E&W*7*Greens E&W1.441,8389110.48Ind J Bousfield*8*Reform0.658276850.36Scottish Greens*9*Yorkshire0.648164940.26Socialist Labour*10*Heritage0.39501


----------



## brogdale (Jul 2, 2021)

killer b said:


> Why are you putting them this way though? Anyone can look at the results and see that by the commonly understood way of presenting the figures - the way that allows easy comparison with previous results and other seats - Labour's vote share has declined by 7.4%, and the Tory vote share by 1.6%.


OK, the %s I put up represent the fall relative to the general reduction in vote that might be expected given the, characteristically, depressed turnout. 

The respective falls of 13% (Lab) & 4% (Tory) beyond that explained by lower turnout give an indication of the comparable solidity/friability of the 'core' and/or disengagement from the party.

Put simply, the Tory vote held up with some limited evidence of switch to Galloway, whereas the Lab vote was markedly worse that turnout might explain.

That's all I was getting at and if it wasn't that helpful...then well...nothing lost, eh?


----------



## kebabking (Jul 2, 2021)

chilango said:


> FFS




We need a 'shit the fucking bed' emoji....

I can understand the personal relief of Starmer, and some very mixed and powerful emotions for Ledbeater, but the idea that this is any kind of victory for the party/movement/cause is just so crass as to be unbelievable.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 2, 2021)

killer b said:


> 47% according to wikipedia - fairly typical, maybe on the high side


Some useful stuff on by-election turnout (1979-2019) here in this Commons Library pdf:

Turns out that mean turnout is 51.5% for Parliamentary by-elections, so B&S was not far off the average.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 2, 2021)

chilango said:


> FFS



To a glass of Chardonnay and a moan about how awful the oiks are no doubt


----------



## killer b (Jul 2, 2021)

It's an above average turnout for modern by elections though, ie since that big drop you can see in the late 90s


----------



## glitch hiker (Jul 2, 2021)

chilango said:


> FFS



Is he trying look like Le Chiffre? (the villain from Casino Royale, or the amusing name of a porn star, I forget which)?

+1 MP, win!

Still, it's not a Tory and it's not Galloway.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 2, 2021)

killer b said:


> It's an above average turnout for modern by elections though, ie since that big drop you can see in the late 90s


Given the media attention and general hullabaloo, I was a tad surprised it wasn't higher. I suppose the substantial Labour stay-at-home element (which is fair enough really, what is there to vote _for?) _will have capped the total.


----------



## glitch hiker (Jul 2, 2021)

Calamity1971 said:


> Soon to be consumed .



If I'm honest, I don't really get the hatred for Owen Jones from the left. He's not a revolutionary, which sucks. But he's not the fiend some make him out to be. And he's not fucking racist cunt like Galloway the bigot bollock


----------



## andysays (Jul 2, 2021)

kebabking said:


> We need a 'shit the fucking bed' emoji....
> 
> I can understand the personal relief of Starmer, and some very mixed and powerful emotions for Ledbeater, but the idea that this is any kind of victory for the party/movement/cause is just so crass as to be unbelievable.


Yeah, the only reason this is/can be portrayed as a genuine victory is because until very recently Labour were expected to lose, even by some of their own party workers I believe.

The fact they've somehow managed to avoid ignominious defeat with a margin of less than 1%, quite possibly saved by the ridiculous intervention of George Galloway, should really be nothing to celebrate.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 2, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> If I'm honest, I don't really get the hatred for Owen Jones from the left. He's not a revolutionary, which sucks. But he's not the fiend some make him out to be. And he's not fucking racist cunt like Galloway the bigot bollock


Liked chavs and his book about the rich but he’s a political activist of the worst sort . Jumps ship at the turn of a hat and spends most of his time as a fixture talking to the various shades of the left .


----------



## Leighsw2 (Jul 2, 2021)

Jeff Robinson said:


> So much salt from Galloway I'm worried he'll get hypertension. But what point is he trying to convey in this bitter and petty tweet? Is it the LGBT flag and bisexuality that he thinks is damning or the identifying as a socialist and BLM supporter?



Very interested to see that Cee Cee is followed by Dave Nellist. Kudos!


----------



## Leighsw2 (Jul 2, 2021)

chilango said:


> Sure.  The usual sort of suspects piling on is no surprise.
> 
> ...but having watched the both in the run up it's undeniable that they were opposed to Galloway. yet at the same time found his hyped impact more seductive or exciting than they should have.
> 
> ...


I think the 'excitement' is watching the irony-free contortions of people who spent five years trying to destroy Corbyn-Labour, including throwing two General Elections, now demanding North Korean standards of loyalty to Starmer, '_because the Tories_...' In that sense I don't blame Jones or Bastani at all for getting excited at seeing these people humiliated in another bye-election defeat. There are many who feel the same way!


----------



## Leighsw2 (Jul 2, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> We'll never know how many of Galloway's fairly impressive vote share were Labour voters who deserted them for him thus reducing their margin or were Tory voters deserting them for him and thus denying them yet another victory.
> Either way it's a shit result for Labour whichever way they try to paint it. In 2019 (which was Labours worst GE in decades) they held it by 3500 votes, 9000 votes in 2017 and 6000 votes in 2015.


I believe 2017 was Labour's best ever vote share in Batley (better than 1997). And your reminder that Labour came second in Chesham and Amersham in 2017 (with 11,374 votes and a 20% vote share.)


----------



## Leighsw2 (Jul 2, 2021)

chilango said:


> FFS



Am I right to suspect that Labour's response to almost losing a previously safe seat the Tories haven't come close to winning in 20 years and having been in Government for 11, is not going to be one of humility or soul searching?


----------



## two sheds (Jul 2, 2021)

I'd like to see Starmer go "Allllllllllll Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight, Allllllllllllllllllllllll Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.


----------



## Argonia (Jul 2, 2021)

two sheds said:


> I'd like to see Starmer go "Allllllllllll Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight, Allllllllllllllllllllllll Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.


Kinnock knock who's there?


----------



## brogdale (Jul 2, 2021)

chilango said:


> FFS



Is there such a thing as _dropping the zeitgeist_?


----------



## andysays (Jul 2, 2021)

two sheds said:


> I'd like to see Starmer go "Allllllllllll Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight, Allllllllllllllllllllllll Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.


I'd like to see him fall over in the sea, personally


----------



## steveseagull (Jul 2, 2021)

I suspect the polling companies will be polling the voters in B&S over the next couple of days and I also suspect, the outcome from that is not going to look good for Starmzy.


----------



## glitch hiker (Jul 2, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Liked chavs and his book about the rich but he’s a political activist of the worst sort . Jumps ship at the turn of a hat and spends most of his time as a fixture talking to the various shades of the left .


Jumps ship? I thought he was pretty solidly Labour left (make of that what you will).

I've been watching more of him since he started youtubing during the pandemic and his content has been pretty decent. His corona summation I thought was very good. Not sure I need to see more interviews with Ellie Maeo O Hagan though


----------



## Argonia (Jul 2, 2021)

Jones was fucking rude to me once in a tweet


----------



## killer b (Jul 2, 2021)

steveseagull said:


> I suspect the polling companies will be polling the voters in B&S over the next couple of days and I also suspect, the outcome from that is not going to look good for Starmzy.


the last constituency poll done there turned out to be total bullshit, so who cares?


----------



## teqniq (Jul 2, 2021)

Jeez this guy's full of shit. The hypocrisy is breathtaking:


----------



## belboid (Jul 2, 2021)

steveseagull said:


> I suspect the polling companies will be polling the voters in B&S over the next couple of days and I also suspect, the outcome from that is not going to look good for Starmzy.


They didn’t before, why would they now? A party might, tho I doubt it, and any ‘results’ from them should be treated with massive caution


----------



## Argonia (Jul 2, 2021)

teqniq said:


> Jeez this guy's full of shit. The hypocrisy is breathtaking:



Mandelson is a real mystery because he was related to Herbert Morrison so has genuine Socialist history


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 2, 2021)

Argonia said:


> Mandelson is a real mystery because he was related to Herbert Morrison so has genuine Socialist history


Genuine Labour history ,wouldn’t confuse the two tbh


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 2, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> Jumps ship? I thought he was pretty solidly Labour left (make of that what you will).
> 
> I've been watching more of him since he started youtubing during the pandemic and his content has been pretty decent. His corona summation I thought was very good. Not sure I need to see more interviews with Ellie Maeo O Hagan though


Jumps ship in whatever passes for left in the Labour Party . He’s embrace of Corbyn soon evaporated


----------



## kenny g (Jul 2, 2021)

kebabking said:


> We need a 'shit the fucking bed' emoji....
> 
> I can understand the personal relief of Starmer, and some very mixed and powerful emotions for Ledbeater, but the idea that this is any kind of victory for the party/movement/cause is just so crass as to be unbelievable.


Especially as she wasn't even mentioning labour towards the end. She ran a lib dem , I will clean dogshit from your streets with my toothbrush campaign and he is claiming victory?


----------



## BillRiver (Jul 2, 2021)

Wasn't sure whether to put this here or in the why The Guardian is crap thread but... :


----------



## BillRiver (Jul 2, 2021)

Serene said:


> Boris has called Batley and Spen voters a bunch of ungrateful Northern Bastárds. He said he is redirectng HS2 through it, now, and cutting funding there. That place is dead, dead, dead, now, he said. Galloway agreed with Bojo.



That would be funnier if it wasn't actually likely that Johnson really will punish them, as tories tend to do any area that doesn't elect them, and that real people will suffer as a result.


----------



## hitmouse (Jul 2, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> If I'm honest, I don't really get the hatred for Owen Jones from the left. He's not a revolutionary, which sucks. But he's not the fiend some make him out to be. And he's not fucking racist cunt like Galloway the bigot bollock


Just had a look, and this is Jones' response to that:


As I thought, the suggestion that Jones was on the verge of jumping ship to Gallowayism is clearly bollocks. Jones may well be a wanker in his way, but I bet he's less of a wanker than the person who has "moderate social democrat" as their username.


----------



## A380 (Jul 2, 2021)

At least George Galloway didn't succeed in giving a seat to the Tories with his dog whistle misogyny. 

Time for him to go back to pretending to be a cat on reality television.


----------



## ska invita (Jul 2, 2021)




----------



## PR1Berske (Jul 2, 2021)

Galloway needs another byelection, and soon. I doubt another will happen this year, Lagan Valley notwithstanding


----------



## RileyOBlimey (Jul 2, 2021)

Flogging arms to Israel? Fuck yea.


ska invita said:


>




Excellent.


----------



## PR1Berske (Jul 3, 2021)




----------



## tim (Jul 3, 2021)

PR1Berske said:


>



Cuntrageous and indefatigable to the end.


----------



## planetgeli (Jul 3, 2021)

She's been in the Labour Party less than 2 months. She doesn't 'do' politics.

Therefore









						Keir Starmer hails Kim Leadbeater as the future of Labour
					

Party leader contrasts new Batley and Spen MP with Boris Johnson, ‘who basks in his own dishonesty’




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## brogdale (Jul 3, 2021)

planetgeli said:


> She's been in the Labour Party less than 2 months. She doesn't 'do' politics.
> 
> Therefore
> 
> ...


Been on twitter longer than she's been a party member!
The "Proud MP"


----------



## teqniq (Jul 3, 2021)

It's probably been mentioned upthread (I have only been reading it intermittently) but I was completely unimpressed with her coming out with this:









						Kim Leadbeater Using The Tory Lines: There Is No Magic Money Tree When Asked About Nurses Pay Rises - Labour Heartlands
					

Labour's candidate for Batley and Spen using 2017 Tory attack lines to explain why she won't back a proper pay rise for nurses and teachers. saying:




					labourheartlands.com


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 3, 2021)

teqniq said:


> It's probably been mentioned upthread (I have only been reading it intermittently) but I was completely unimpressed with her coming out with this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Bet she'll break some speed limits in her rush to get her snout in the trough


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 3, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> Is he trying look like Le Chiffre? (the villain from Casino Royale, or the amusing name of a porn star, I forget which)?
> 
> +1 MP, win!
> 
> Still, it's not a Tory and it's not Galloway.


She. She's not a Tory and she's not Galloway. Oh and she's not an it


----------



## brogdale (Jul 3, 2021)

teqniq said:


> It's probably been mentioned upthread (I have only been reading it intermittently) but I was completely unimpressed with her coming out with this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


She obviously thinks that's the party line on public finances.
Worrying if she's right or wrong.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 3, 2021)

brogdale said:


> She obviously thinks that's the party line on public finances.
> Worrying if she's right or wrong.


The labour line on public finances is we will have to tighten our belts because we're all in this together as we need to avoid the Tories saying we'll borrow loads of money


----------



## brogdale (Jul 3, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> The labour line on public finances is we will have to tighten our belts because we're all in this together as we need to avoid the Tories saying we'll borrow loads of money


innit?


----------



## tim (Jul 3, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Bet she'll break some speed limits in her rush to get her snout in the trough


Pigs in sties do not break speed limits. I wish you'd take more care with your metaphors.


----------



## tim (Jul 3, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> The labour line on public finances is we will have to tighten our belts because we're all in this together as we need to avoid the Tories saying we'll borrow loads of money


Hardly new though, is it. It's just the same old Prudence.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 3, 2021)

tim said:


> Pigs in sties do not break speed limits. I wish you'd take more care with your metaphors.


The trough is in Westminster. She is in Batley and Spen. To get to the trough she will have to travel. It is at this point I envisage speed limits being broken as she races to get her snout to the trough


----------



## kenny g (Jul 3, 2021)

If the future of the Labour party is selecting relatives of deceased candidates who aren't even members of the party and who come out with Tory platitudes then it is a pretty pointless future.


----------



## PR1Berske (Jul 3, 2021)

kenny g said:


> If the future of the Labour party is selecting relatives of deceased candidates who aren't even members of the party and who come out with Tory platitudes then it is a pretty pointless future.


I'm quite fond of the phrase I saw the other day: "It is a Labour win, but not a victory."


----------



## Argonia (Jul 3, 2021)

PR1Berske said:


> I'm quite fond of the phrase I saw the other day: "It is a Labour win, but not a victory."


pyrrhic


----------



## Raheem (Jul 3, 2021)

Argonia said:


> pyrrhic


You don't have to agree with PR1Berske, but there's no need to call them names.


----------



## Argonia (Jul 3, 2021)

Raheem said:


> You don't have to agree with PR1Berske, but there's no need to call them names.


Eh? You've lost me Raheem


----------



## Raheem (Jul 3, 2021)

Argonia said:


> Eh? You've lost me Raheem


I don't think it's on, calling other posters pyrrhics like that.


----------



## Argonia (Jul 3, 2021)

Raheem said:


> I don't think it's on, calling other posters pyrrhics like that.


I was calling the New New Starmaggeddon Labour victory a pyrrhic one, not PR1Berske


----------



## Raheem (Jul 3, 2021)

Argonia said:


> I was calling the New New Starmaggeddon Labour victory a pyrrhic one, not PR1Berske



I know. It's what it sounds like.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 3, 2021)

Do keep up, at the back!


----------



## PR1Berske (Jul 3, 2021)

From the independent candidate who stood down with the understanding that his votes would assist the Conservatives in winning...


----------



## andysays (Jul 3, 2021)

PR1Berske said:


> From the independent candidate who stood down with the understanding that his votes would assist the Conservatives in winning...



So the Standing Up candidate ended up Standing Down?

No wonder this by-election was so confusing...


----------



## kenny g (Jul 3, 2021)

andysays said:


> So the Standing Up candidate ended up Standing Down?
> 
> No wonder this by-election was so confusing...


There is some extremely rambling social media post (I think reposted by someone on this thread) about why he was going to stand aside to assure a Tory victory. His facebook page has some pretty amazing stuff from the election though:



At least she mentions Labour I suppose.


----------



## A380 (Jul 3, 2021)

George Galloway claims Labour unfairly used his lack of popularity to defeat him


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jul 3, 2021)

A380 said:


> George Galloway claims Labour unfairly used his lack of popularity to defeat him





> The silver-tongued firebrand from Dundee has declared he will try to use the courts to overturn the Batley and Spen by-election and claimed that Labour activists convinced people not to vote for him by highlighting the fact that he’s a malevolent attention-seeking prick.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 3, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


>


Which football team is Galloway supporting this year?


----------



## Calamity1971 (Jul 3, 2021)

A380 said:


> George Galloway claims Labour unfairly used his lack of popularity to defeat him


His spokesperson, a burly man from Chechnya who would only give his name as Simon


----------



## gosub (Jul 3, 2021)

chilango said:


> FFS


----------



## brogdale (Jul 5, 2021)

Maybe just me...but utter fucking cringe-fest here...


----------



## brogdale (Jul 5, 2021)

"....we've got work to do as a team..."

Says person who's been a member of the party for about 3 months.


----------



## PR1Berske (Jul 5, 2021)

Bless her and all that but good lord, she is acting like a competition winner.


----------



## Argonia (Jul 5, 2021)

PR1Berske said:


> Bless her and all that but good lord, she is acting like a competition winner.


Used to play the lottery when I was working at Gower Street Waterstones and commuting in from Hatfield. I was in the midst of some confused magical thinking at the time (I had just read some Gabriel Garcia Marquez) and thought one day in Asda that I had been given the numbers by God.


----------



## MickiQ (Jul 5, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Maybe just me...but utter fucking cringe-fest here...



Nope not just you


----------



## two sheds (Jul 5, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Maybe just me...but utter fucking cringe-fest here...



Alllllllll Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. Alllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight


----------



## belboid (Jul 5, 2021)

Decent piece from John Harris on B&S









						Keir Starmer needs a vision. 'Buy British' is not enough | John Harris
					

It should not be difficult. Covid has highlighted a new public mood, and the injustices caused by a decade of Tory government, says Guardian columnist John Harris




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## planetgeli (Jul 5, 2021)

The trouble with having to get the relative of an assassinated MP just to hold onto vaguely safe seats is sooner or later you're going to run out of relatives or assassins.


----------



## BillRiver (Jul 5, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Maybe just me...but utter fucking cringe-fest here...




What has she "done in the last five years"? Does he mean grieving her sister, or something else?


----------



## Argonia (Jul 5, 2021)

belboid said:


> Decent piece from John Harris on B&S
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I spoke to Harris once in a meeting in Parliament and slipped him a note demanding a journalsitic renaissance


----------



## brogdale (Jul 5, 2021)

BillRiver said:


> What has she "done in the last five years"? Does he mean grieving her sister, or something else?


That bit also troubled me; I mean, really?


----------



## brogdale (Jul 5, 2021)

PR1Berske said:


> Bless her and all that but good lord, she is acting like a competition winner.


----------



## belboid (Jul 5, 2021)

brogdale said:


> That bit also troubled me; I mean, really?


I imagine it is the campaigns she has led during that time; setting up the Jo Cox Foundation, chairing More in Common and leading the Great Get Together events.


----------



## NoXion (Jul 5, 2021)

belboid said:


> I imagine it is the campaigns she has led during that time; setting up the Jo Cox Foundation, chairing More in Common and leading the Great Get Together events.



I doubt most voters have even heard of any of that. I know I didn't before now.


----------



## BillRiver (Jul 5, 2021)

belboid said:


> I imagine it is the campaigns she has led during that time; setting up the Jo Cox Foundation, chairing More in Common and leading the Great Get Together events.



Did she have a career before her sister was murdered?


----------



## brogdale (Jul 5, 2021)

BillRiver said:


> Did she have a career before her sister was murdered?


Wiki:


----------



## belboid (Jul 5, 2021)

NoXion said:


> I doubt most voters have even heard of any of that. I know I didn't before now.


Do you live in Batley & Spen?


----------



## a_chap (Jul 5, 2021)

belboid said:


> Do you live in Batley & Spen?



I misread that as "Do you beleive in Batley & Spen"

Some weird fundamentalist sect, I assume.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jul 5, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Maybe just me...but utter fucking cringe-fest here...




Kier Partridge strikes again.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Jul 5, 2021)

a_chap said:


> I misread that as "Do you beleive in Batley & Spen"
> 
> Some weird fundamentalist sect, I assume.


I heard that there may soon be a split between the Universalist Church of Batley and the Spen Zion Temple.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jul 5, 2021)

PR1Berske said:


> Bless her and all that but good lord, she is acting like a competition winner.



i think the labour party is turning in to an unreality show...


----------



## Argonia (Jul 5, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> i think the labour party is turning in to an unreality show...


They'll all be dressing as cats like Galloway next


----------



## two sheds (Jul 5, 2021)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> I heard that there may soon be a split between the Universalist Church of Batley and the Spen Zion Temple.


Every time I see the thread title I think of:


----------



## Calamity1971 (Jul 5, 2021)

a_chap said:


> I misread that as "Do you beleive in Batley & Spen"
> 
> Some weird fundamentalist sect, I assume.


Now I've got Cher singing that in my head


----------



## Argonia (Jul 5, 2021)

Calamity1971 said:


> Now I've got Cher singing that in my head


I interviewed Cher for TV Tokyo in Leicester Square. Struck me as a thoroguhly nice person


----------



## Calamity1971 (Jul 5, 2021)

Argonia said:


> I interviewed Cher for TV Tokyo in Leicester Square. Struck me as a thoroguhly nice person


She put her weight against saving that poor chained up elephant, so she's good in my book.


----------



## Argonia (Jul 5, 2021)

Calamity1971 said:


> She put her weight against saving that poor chained up elephant, so she's good in my book.


Haven't seen much of her but enjoyed her in "Tea with Mussolini"


----------



## Argonia (Jul 5, 2021)

Argonia said:


> I interviewed Cher for TV Tokyo in Leicester Square. Struck me as a thoroguhly nice person


I was basically a low rent Dennis Pennis and the bosses weren't happy with my footage


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 5, 2021)

NoXion said:


> I doubt most voters have even heard of any of that. I know I didn't before now.


they would have done in BATLEY & SPEN


----------



## brogdale (Jul 5, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> they would have done in BATLEY & SPEN


Yet that didn’t stop her shedding 8k of her sister’s 2015 vote.


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## ska invita (Jul 5, 2021)

BillRiver said:


> What has she "done in the last five years"?











						The Jo Cox Foundation
					

The Jo Cox Foundation brings together people and organisations to build the fairer, kinder and more tolerant world the late Jo Cox MP believed in.




					www.jocoxfoundation.org
				



i think is what is being referred to


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## tim (Jul 6, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Yet that didn’t stop her shedding 8k of her sister’s 2015 vote.


It's normal to shed in a by-election,  particularly when Galloway is on the prowl.


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## brogdale (Jul 6, 2021)

tim said:


> It's normal to shed in a by-election,  particularly when Galloway is on the prowl.


That's true, and a fair point...but that's why, earlier in the thread, I showed that Leadbeater's vote had contracted significantly more that could be accounted for by lower turnout. And, yes Galloway was there to take votes, but UKIP took a higher number of votes against Cox in 2015.


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## killer b (Jul 6, 2021)

brogdale said:


> UKIP took a higher number of votes against Cox in 2015.


Why do you keep doing this? The turnout is well down on the 2015 general election - as is normal for a by election - so you can't just compare raw numbers as if they mean anything. 

No one is suggesting that Leadbetter hasn't shed a load of votes. They're complaining about your partial presentation of figures to cast that vote shedding in the worst possible light.


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## brogdale (Jul 6, 2021)

killer b said:


> Why do you keep doing this? The turnout is well down on the 2015 general election - as is normal for a by election - so you can't just compare raw numbers as if they mean anything.
> 
> No one is suggesting that Leadbetter hasn't shed a load of votes. They're complaining about your partial presentation of figures to cast that vote shedding in the worst possible light.


If a candidate sheds more votes than turnout explains and challenger candidates, that is noteworthy.


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## brogdale (Jul 6, 2021)

Turnout was 28% down which doesn't explain why Leadbeater's vote share fell by 41%, or why that was 10% (of popular vote share) worse that the Tories decline.

Not sure why those observations appear to be so controversial.


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## brogdale (Jul 6, 2021)

Leadbeater's cringeworthy schtick continued inside the chamber...


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## Argonia (Jul 6, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Leadbeater's cringeworthy schtick continued inside the chamber...



A chamber straight out of the 18th century. The ghost of Thomas Paine is not impressed. There is no common sense there at all.


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## belboid (Jul 6, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Turnout was 28% down which doesn't explain why Leadbeater's vote share fell by 41%, or why that was 10% (of popular vote share) worse that the Tories decline.
> 
> Not sure why those observations appear to be so controversial.


Because your psephology is shit (and your comments have more than a hint of sexism).


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## brogdale (Jul 6, 2021)

belboid said:


> Because your psephology is shit (and your comments have more than a hint of sexism).


% falls in vote share compared to fall in turnout are hardly psephology, tbh...it's pretty basic observation.
As to a "hint of sexism", I'd be happy to correct/apologise for, if you can point to a specific example that you've seen.


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## andysays (Jul 6, 2021)

belboid said:


> Because your psephology is shit (and your comments have more than a hint of sexism).


Not going to comment on the former, but I'd be interested to see a concrete example of the latter


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## belboid (Jul 6, 2021)

andysays said:


> Not going to comment on the former, but I'd be interested to see a concrete example of the latter


There’s a ‘silly woman’ tone.  The outrageousness of a woman being happy she unexpectedly won, the ignorance of what she’s done for the last five years (despite it being very well advertised during the campaign being studied). Best of sticking to her lack of politics. Imo.


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## andysays (Jul 6, 2021)

belboid said:


> There’s a ‘silly woman’ tone.  The outrageousness of a woman being happy she unexpectedly won, the ignorance of what she’s done for the last five years (despite it being very well advertised during the campaign being studied). Best of sticking to her lack of politics. Imo.


If that's really all you've got to demonstrate your accusation, you'd be better off sticking to just saying brogdale's psephology is shit.

IMO, obviously.


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## belboid (Jul 6, 2021)

I dig that patronising sneering is a thing around here.  But it gets a bit weary from time to time.


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## brogdale (Jul 6, 2021)

That's OK mate; we all of us make mistakes when we're a bit tired from time to time.


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## Argonia (Jul 6, 2021)

brogdale said:


> View attachment 277047


Fortunately don't think Leadbetter went as far as a pact with a demon to win the lottery









						Teenager murdered sisters as sacrifice to demon to win lottery, court told
					

A teenager accused of murdering two sisters in a north-west London park last June had promised to sacrifice women in order to win the lottery, the Old Bailey has heard. Nineteen-year-old Danyal Hussein pleaded not guilty to repeatedly stabbing Nicole Smallman and Bibaa Henry. The jury heard that...




					www.channel4.com


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## PR1Berske (Jul 9, 2021)

Video below, transcript given from my rusty audio-typing

"A lot of bilge has been talked about the by-election in Batley and Spen. And it's not difficult to see why. A deluge of fake news has spewed out of the fake news industry, otherwise known as the lamestream media. Almost every word of it is a lie, some of it is the reverse of the truth, and all of it will come out in the court action that I have launched, to have the result of the by-election set aside. 

Not because I'm claiming I won it. Although some observers at the count are very clear that I was winning it, until a large and well, frankly er....unprovenanced...er... number of votes were brought in and shuffled onto the table. But I'm not claiming that I won it. Neither do I want it set aside so that I can be a candidate in another by-election, for I will not be."


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## Orang Utan (Jul 9, 2021)

he’s modelling Trump tantrums now, the jobbie


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## Zapp Brannigan (Jul 9, 2021)

If there's someone out there who can puncture the Galloway bubble of self importance and make him listen,  they could do a lot worse than remind him of how Giuliani's career and reputation are going.  That speech above is almost word for word a Giuliani speech, and could only be more embarrassing if delivered from the car park of a landscaping business next to a sex shop.


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## existentialist (Jul 9, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Total internet legend. What an absolute cunt. Feed that internet presence; stand tall in your pants in your bedroom.


U OK HUN?


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## glitch hiker (Jul 9, 2021)

Argonia said:


> Fortunately don't think Leadbetter went as far as a pact with a demon to win the lottery
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Did he win?


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## Argonia (Jul 9, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> Did he win?


So sadly not. I remember when I was doing the lottery in Hatfield I went into Asda once and thought God had given me the numbers. Fortunately I wasn't minded to kill anyone but I was in the middle of some very confused magical thinking - had just read Gabriel Garcia Marquez.


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## kenny g (Jul 9, 2021)

Argonia said:


> So sadly not. I remember when I was doing the lottery in Hatfield I went into Asda once and thought God had given me the numbers. Fortunately I wasn't minded to kill anyone but I was in the middle of some very confused magical thinking - had just read Gabriel Garcia Marquez.


A finer source of psychosis than the Harry Potter dirge that occupied people close to me when falling down their rabbit hole.


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## Argonia (Jul 9, 2021)

kenny g said:


> A finer source of psychosis than the Harry Potter dirge that occupied people close to me when falling down their rabbit hole.


I remember going mental when I lived in Hackney at the time of the evil invasion of Iraq because the only book anyone was reading on the buses was Harry Potter. I have since watched little bits of the films and don't hate it with such a violent passion.


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## existentialist (Jul 9, 2021)

maomao said:


> That's not fair. It's quite a nice hat.


Thing is, if you put a hat on a turd, the hatness gets tainted by the turdness, regardless of how good the hat is.


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## magneze (Jul 9, 2021)

You'd definitely need to air it out a bit.


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## mystic pyjamas (Jul 9, 2021)

Won't someone rid us of this pestulant popinjay.


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## Dogsauce (Jul 9, 2021)

’lamestream media’.  Embarrassing teenage MRA-style bollocks from someone old enough to know better.


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