# Hillsborough Independent Panel findings and release of documents.



## Fedayn (Sep 12, 2012)

Here's a link to 'live updates' on the Grauniad website

Families of the 96 started viewing the documents at 8am

Cameron speaking to the Commons at 12:30pm.

Here's hoping.......


*JFT96*


----------



## purenarcotic (Sep 12, 2012)

Cheers, Fed.


----------



## Favelado (Sep 12, 2012)

This should turn out to be a landmark day. Let's hope we're not left disappointed. #whereskelvin is doing the rounds on Twitter.

Justice for the 96.


----------



## elbows (Sep 12, 2012)

​


> @*TonyEvansTimes*​​First news trickling out and it's ugly. Blood taken from bodies to test for alcohol. If none, they checked for criminal records.​


 
​


----------



## tommers (Sep 12, 2012)

I think this might finally be it.


----------



## Balbi (Sep 12, 2012)

That first bit of news could be the tip of a fucking stinking berg.


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 12, 2012)

Balbi said:


> That first bit of news could be the tip of a fucking stinking berg.


 
I think its going to be horrific, possibly worse than I had previously imagined.


----------



## Balbi (Sep 12, 2012)

Tony Evans is tweeting info that makes SYP sound like the cops from David Peace's Red Riding books.


----------



## Favelado (Sep 12, 2012)

The news that the families stood up and applauded the panel at the end of the hearing suggests that real disclosure of the cover-up is coming out.


----------



## Fedayn (Sep 12, 2012)

Balbi said:


> Tony Evans is tweeting info that makes SYP sound like the cops from David Peace's Red Riding books.


 
Balbi, can you c&p his tweets, Twitter is blocked at work.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 12, 2012)

Favelado said:


> The news that the families stood up and applauded the panel at the end of the hearing suggests that real disclosure of the cover-up is coming out.


Some of them did - those associated with the Hillsborough Justice Campaign are far more sceptical...


----------



## cesare (Sep 12, 2012)

Also, keep refreshing the live feed link that Fed posted originally, it keeps updating.


----------



## treelover (Sep 12, 2012)

elbows said:


> ​First news trickling out and it's ugly. Blood taken from bodies to test for alcohol. If none, they checked for criminal records.
> 
> ​


 

no words really...


----------



## Balbi (Sep 12, 2012)

*Tony Evans* ‏@*TonyEvansTimes* 
The coroner questioned the need for inquests! That's illegal

*Tony Evans* ‏@*TonyEvansTimes* 
And they tried to use the inquests to undermine Taylor Report.

*Tony Evans* ‏@*TonyEvansTimes* 
The HIP will be quite clear. This was a deliberate strategy of lying. There was no basis of truth


*Tony Evans* ‏@*TonyEvansTimes* 
I'd expect to hear what we already knew. Irving Patnick, the MP, was used by police to leak lies to MacKenzie.


*Jim Boardman* ‏@*JimBoardman* 
#*HIP* The report is understood to highlight a concerted attempt by South Yorkshire Police to revert the findings of Taylor at the inquests.
Retweeted by *Tony Evans*

*Tony Evans* ‏@*TonyEvansTimes* 
And it looks like HIP will confirm what we knew: more could have been saved. We knew it, but it still hurts to hear it

 *Tony Evans* ‏@*TonyEvansTimes* 
SYP were criminalising victims before the bodies were even cold

*Tony Evans* ‏@*TonyEvansTimes*
First news trickling out and it's ugly. Blood taken from bodies to test for alcohol. If none, they checked for criminal records.


----------



## Favelado (Sep 12, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Some of them did - those associated with the Hillsborough Justice Campaign are far more sceptical...


 
Any more details on that? That's interesting.


----------



## Wilf (Sep 12, 2012)

Just hope every lying cunt who covered it all up and put the familes through it all these years is feeling like history is about to catch up with them.


----------



## Fedayn (Sep 12, 2012)

Cheers balbi.

From teh Graun website



> A home office spokesman has said its "massive" what's about to come out.


----------



## treelover (Sep 12, 2012)

McKenzie should watch his back after this, literally...


----------



## cesare (Sep 12, 2012)

treelover said:


> McKenzie should watch his back after this, literally...




I hope he doesn't


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 12, 2012)

Favelado said:


> Any more details on that? That's interesting.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 12, 2012)

Wilf said:


> Just hope every lying cunt who covered it all up and put the familes through it all these years is feeling like history is about to catch up with them.


 
God I hope so, but I fear the the usual

'Mistakes were made, we're all very sorry, its all such a long time ago, those involved have all retired or moved on - the important thing is we have apologised now etc etc etc'

I hope I am wrong.


----------



## treelover (Sep 12, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Well, the HJC thought the panel basically was manipulated and represented a particular section of the families interests alone, sidelining other critical voices in the process. There's a sort of summary by (the fantastic) Sheila Colman here (and she's on twitter as @SheilaColeman96). Interesting to see what effect today will have on their views.


 

The tensions between the different 'factions'(for want of a better word) of the HFSG have been ongoing since the tragedy occurred..


----------



## weepiper (Sep 12, 2012)

*Follow​*​

*Tony Evans*‏@*TonyEvansTimes*​
Ancient history? Norman Bettison, chief constable of SY and head of MSide police then appears to have been at meetings to discuss strategy


----------



## weepiper (Sep 12, 2012)

*Follow​*​

*Tony Evans*‏@*TonyEvansTimes*​
That strategy was to blame fans. To serve and protect, eh?


----------



## tommers (Sep 12, 2012)

What's the history there?  Cos to my unknowledgeable eye it smacks a bit of the Popular People's front of Judea.  It'd be nice if the families could be united, at least.


----------



## treelover (Sep 12, 2012)

Has Johnson said something derogatory about Hillsborough today or is it old news?, stuff on twitter...


----------



## Favelado (Sep 12, 2012)

tommers said:


> What's the history there? Cos to my unknowledgeable eye it smacks a bit of the Popular People's front of Judea. It'd be nice if the families could be united, at least.


 
An outline.

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=293382.0


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 12, 2012)

tommers said:


> What's the history there? Cos to my unknowledgeable eye it smacks a bit of the Popular People's front of Judea. It'd be nice if the families could be united, at least.


Not sure if this is the right thread for this stuff (not right now anyway) but here's a link to something i wrote about how one side see this a few years back.


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 12, 2012)

Does anyone think Cameron is going to mention the tory government's (and presumably the sainted Maggie) roll in all this when he speaks at 12.30?


----------



## el-ahrairah (Sep 12, 2012)

let's hope we see some justice happen now.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 12, 2012)

Teaboy said:


> Does anyone think Cameron is going to mention the tory government's (and presumably the sainted Maggie) roll in all this when he speaks at 12.30?


Or that his govt appealed against the release.


----------



## treelover (Sep 12, 2012)

Idiots on Radio Sheffield phone in going on about, ''what about 'Heysel?''


----------



## tommers (Sep 12, 2012)

Favelado said:


> An outline.
> 
> http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=293382.0


 


butchersapron said:


> Not sure if this is the right thread for this stuff (not right now anyway) but here's a link to something i wrote about how one side see this a few years back.


 
Ta Gentlemen.


----------



## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Sep 12, 2012)

Teaboy said:


> Does anyone think Cameron is going to mention the tory government's (and presumably the sainted Maggie) roll in all this when he speaks at 12.30?


Highly doubtful.


----------



## agricola (Sep 12, 2012)

Cameron on now.  He has started promisingly, pointing out that justice was denied.


----------



## Favelado (Sep 12, 2012)

Twitter just melted.


----------



## agricola (Sep 12, 2012)

The report appears to have totally slated everyone, judging from what Cameron has said so far.  Attempts made to use the PNC and autopsy reports to gain evidence against the dead.


----------



## weepiper (Sep 12, 2012)

wow...


----------



## agricola (Sep 12, 2012)

Oh, but the Government of the time was lied to, not took part in a coverup.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 12, 2012)

New Inquest sounds like.


----------



## articul8 (Sep 12, 2012)

police deliberately attempting to smear the dead...


----------



## agricola (Sep 12, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> New Inquest sounds like.


 
Definately - any statement that says "It is the Attorney General who decides" and then follows on by saying how much one is required means that it will happen.


----------



## weepiper (Sep 12, 2012)

Around 30 of the 96 could have had reversible asphyxia and therefore could possibly have been saved after the 3.15 cutoff


----------



## weepiper (Sep 12, 2012)

'The panel found that 164 statements were "significantly amended", including the removal of 116 negative comments about the leadership of the police, to push the blame for the tragedy onto the fans.'


----------



## Favelado (Sep 12, 2012)

Welling up a little at work about this. Amazing.


----------



## weepiper (Sep 12, 2012)

*Glasgow Trends *

· Change

#PMQs
#JFT96
#SongsIListenToWhenImSad
David Cameron
Benghazi
Libya
Andy Burnham
Kelvin MacKenzie
Prime Minister


----------



## weepiper (Sep 12, 2012)

> Nick Ravenscroft BBC North of England correspondent
> Among the headlines from a quick reading reading of the report: The ambulance service failed to implement their major incident plan fully. South Yorkshire police sought to deflect responsibility onto fans. The source of negative stories about fans (including by the Sun newspaper) was a local Sheffield news agency informed by senior police, and a local MP.


----------



## Favelado (Sep 12, 2012)

Did Cameron just tell MacKenzie to apologise properly? It sounded like it.


----------



## treelover (Sep 12, 2012)

Patnick involved in cover up, not surprised, he is a odious man...


----------



## weepiper (Sep 12, 2012)

> 1252:
> Mr Cameron confirms that the Attorney General will look urgently at whether to ask the High Court to quash the verdict of the orginal inquest.


----------



## chilango (Sep 12, 2012)

Fucking hell. I'm struggling with this.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 12, 2012)

Right, the Police Fed were used to feed the Sun.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 12, 2012)

New: ambulance service also altered statements - that never came out before.


----------



## purenarcotic (Sep 12, 2012)

Speechless to be honest.


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 12, 2012)

Favelado said:


> Did Cameron just tell MacKenzie to apologise properly? It sounded like it.


 
Yes, well the sun but MacKenzie by extension.  Isnt he on the record as standing by his original story?


----------



## Favelado (Sep 12, 2012)

Teaboy said:


> Yes, well the sun but MacKenzie by extension. Isnt he on the record as standing by his original story?


 
Yes. I think he made a speech in the City a few years where he backed up what he said.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 12, 2012)

Favelado said:


> Yes. I think he made a speech in the City a few years where he backed up what he said.


He took back the fake apology that he had previously offered.


----------



## weepiper (Sep 12, 2012)

PM now skirting round whether all documentation relating to the disaster is now in the public domain. 'Some documents which won't be revealed for data protection purposes'


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 12, 2012)

The astonishing thing is that all this is without full disclosure. What else have they kept back if this is the stuff they were prepared to release?


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 12, 2012)

presumably that means exactly which mouths the lies that the sun repeated came from?


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 12, 2012)

DotCommunist said:


> presumably that means exactly which mouths the lies that the sun repeated came from?


Well we know that now i think - the police feds sec, the MP for Clegg's seat and whites press agency.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Sep 12, 2012)

treelover said:


> Idiots on Radio Sheffield phone in going on about, ''what about 'Heysel?''


I find myself arguing with these knobs every time the disaster is mentioned in the press - at.the next home match. There's a thread about.this on the fans forum, the odd sensible poster but the rest are coming out with that and offensive crap about the families just wanting compo. I'm tempted.to.just leave them to think this idiotic crap but when.I finish work I'll probably argue with them, lose my rag and get myself banned. The twats think that anyone who wants justice is attacking the club and by extension the fans. Sorry about shot grammar, posting from my phone and my fingers are too big for the buttons.


----------



## Ted Striker (Sep 12, 2012)

Did he just really say "we all kind of went along with it (the narrative)"?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Sep 12, 2012)

A little reminder:


> This is the attitude that has stood in the way for 23 years. Justice and peace for all involved today #*JFT96* pic.twitter.com/5dpzCsv8


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 12, 2012)

Cameron dodged the question of criminal charges for police regarding conspiracy.


----------



## purenarcotic (Sep 12, 2012)

Again skirting around questions about getting justice.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 12, 2012)

Rutita1 said:


> A little reminder:


Let's get that text on here:




			
				cuddly Boris Johnson said:
			
		

> The extreme reaction to Mr Bigley's murder is fed by the fact that he was a Liverpudlian. Liverpool is a handsome city with a tribal sense of community. A combination of economic misfortune - its docks were, fundamentally, on the wrong side of England when Britain entered what is now the European Union - and an excessive predilection for welfarism have created a peculiar, and deeply unattractive, psyche among many Liverpudlians. They see themselves whenever possible as victims, and resent their victim status; yet at the same time they wallow in it. Part of this flawed psychological state is that they cannot accept that they might have made any contribution to their misfortunes, but seek rather to blame someone else for it, thereby deepening their sense of shared tribal grievance against the rest of society. The deaths of more than 50 Liverpool football supporters at Hillsborough in 1989 was undeniably a greater tragedy than the single death, however horrible, of Mr Bigley; but that is no excuse for Liverpool's failure to acknowledge, even to this day, the part played in the disaster by drunken fans at the back of the crowd who mindlessly tried to fight their way into the ground that Saturday afternoon. The police became a convenient scapegoat, and the Sun newspaper a whipping-boy for daring, albeit in a tasteless fashion, to hint at the wider causes of the incident.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 12, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> ...the MP for Clegg's seat...


 
Go easy on the doddery auld fella, wasting away in his tiny £5 million house in SW1, bought with Apartheid profits.


----------



## Firky (Sep 12, 2012)

There's a big piece on Radio 2 at the moment about it.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 12, 2012)

DaveCinzano said:


> Go easy on the doddery auld fella, wasting away in his tiny £5 million house in SW1, bought with Apartheid profits.


Yep, he was sort of a father figure to the hang mandela crowd and very vocal supporter of apartheid.


----------



## Firky (Sep 12, 2012)

Rutita1 said:


> A little reminder:


 
I've seen that before but it still has a gobsmackingpunch.


----------



## treelover (Sep 12, 2012)

Helen Jackson(ex Sheff Hillsborough LP MP) seemed to be defending police, etc on Radio Sheffield..


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 12, 2012)

weepiper said:


> PM now skirting round whether all documentation relating to the disaster is now in the public domain. 'Some documents which won't be revealed for data protection purposes'


 
Reporting on 5 live now that there have been no papers released regarding the police's dealing with the home sec just notes from the home sec reporting the meeting.  So we still don't know what the police told the government.


----------



## agricola (Sep 12, 2012)

DotCommunist said:


> presumably that means exactly which mouths the lies that the sun repeated came from?


 
Well exactly.  I am struggling to think why - to use Cameron's position today - the _Sun_ would run false stories from South Yorkshire Police that contrasted so much with what everyone else was saying, or why over twenty years successive governments would have gone to such lengths to protect senior officers - who had all resigned - at South Yorkshire Police who had lied to them (the government), edited statements and been responsible for the disaster.


----------



## agricola (Sep 12, 2012)

Teaboy said:


> Reporting on 5 live now that there have been no papers released regarding the police's dealing with the home sec just notes from the home sec reporting the meeting. So we still don't know what the police told the government.


 
and yet Cameron has suggested the Government was lied to by South Yorkshire Police.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Sep 12, 2012)

Just seen this:



> *'I've heard that the families get the Hillsborough papers at 9am, press at 12pm, PM statement at 12:30pm, families statement at 14:30.
> 
> The Liverpool Echo is liveblogging events and reaction from 10am
> http://live.liverpoolecho.co.uk/Event/Hillsborough_Files_report'*


----------



## treelover (Sep 12, 2012)

wrong post..


----------



## treelover (Sep 12, 2012)

agricola said:


> Well exactly. I am struggling to think why - to use Cameron's position today - the _Sun_ would run false stories from South Yorkshire Police that contrasted so much with what everyone else was saying, or why over twenty years successive governments would have gone to such lengths to protect senior officers - who had all resigned - at South Yorkshire Police who had lied to them (the government), edited statements and been responsible for the disaster.


 
Thatcher?


----------



## articul8 (Sep 12, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Yep, he was sort of a father figure to the hang mandela crowd and very vocal supporter of apartheid.


what a c***


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 12, 2012)

DaveCinzano said:


> Go easy on the doddery auld fella, wasting away in his tiny £5 million house in SW1, bought with Apartheid profits.


 
Is Sir Irvine Patnick OBE still a director of the Association of Conservative Clubs?

http://companycheck.co.uk/company/00457188


----------



## cesare (Sep 12, 2012)

Let's not forget the effect of the poll tax, and general mood of the nation at the time. Govt desperate to do anything to avoid feeding the flames.


----------



## purenarcotic (Sep 12, 2012)

Is Cameron going to say anything other than 'I need to read the report'.  Also, when asked if he would read the report from cover to cover, I notice he never actually said 'yes', just skirted around.  What an arsehole.


----------



## agricola (Sep 12, 2012)

treelover said:


> Thatcher?


 
It would have had to have been someone senior, both to authorise the cover up, feed lines to the _Sun_ that they felt sure enough to run with, and to ensure that it was maintained up to this point.


----------



## purenarcotic (Sep 12, 2012)

Question: 'will you secure some money so that services that provide support can continue to do so'
PM: 'irrelevant waffle about apologising being right'


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 12, 2012)

So basically the government at the time (and all subsequent governments) knew the police were making it all up but went along with the cover up because they were worried about the Polices image.  Well thats just splendid.


----------



## Libertad (Sep 12, 2012)

Irvine Patnick, anyone come across an address for this cunt?

eta PM me


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 12, 2012)

agricola said:


> It would have had to have been someone senior, both to authorise the cover up, feed lines to the _Sun_ that they felt sure enough to run with, and to ensure that it was maintained up to this point.


 
Basically they are throwing the police to the wolves.  I do hope that a senior officer with SY Police kept good notes of his meetings with the government, because strangly no other notes seem to exist.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 12, 2012)

Favelado said:


> Yes. I think he made a speech in the City a few years where he backed up what he said.


6 years ago: MacKenzie's Hillsborough - 'The Sun told The Truth'



> Mr MacKenzie apologised publicly when the Press Complaints Commission condemned his paper's descriptions of Liverpool fans urinating on the Hillsborough dead and stealing from their bodies, in an edition headlined "The Truth". But judging by his comments to a business lunch staged by the law firm Mincoffs in Newcastle upon Tyne, he did not mean a word of it. "I was not sorry then and I'm not sorry now," Mr MacKenzie told his audience. "All I did wrong there was [to] tell the truth." Unrepentant barely defines what followed next from Mr MacKenzie. Responding to a seemingly innocuous question about how often he visited Liverpool, he launched into a general attack on Liverpudlians - possibly unaware that a journalist from The Journal newspaper was present.
> 
> He said of Hillsborough: "There was a surge of Liverpool fans who had been drinking and that is what caused the disaster. The only thing different we did was put it under the headline 'The Truth'. I went on [BBC Radio 4's] World at One the next day and apologised. I only did that because Rupert Murdoch told me to. I wasn't sorry then and I'm not sorry now because we told the truth."


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 12, 2012)

Christ this should be a good day but I am furious.  Can't imagine what the friends and families are going through.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 12, 2012)

Libertad said:


> Irvine Patnick, anyone come across an address for this cunt?
> 
> eta PM me


 
"An address" would be found in places like these:

http://company-director-check.co.uk/director/909129558

http://www.toryclubs.co.uk/


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 12, 2012)

Finally Thatcher and Ingham are mentioned.


----------



## purenarcotic (Sep 12, 2012)

It all leaves a rather bitter taste in the mouth still really, doesn't it.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 12, 2012)

Here is the report. (pdf) Taking ages to load so can't confirm yet.


----------



## Libertad (Sep 12, 2012)

Press conference on Radio 5 now.


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 12, 2012)

agricola said:


> and yet Cameron has suggested the Government was lied to by South Yorkshire Police.


 
There are papers relating to what the home sec at the time reported back to the government about his meeting with sy police but there are no contempary notes (or if there are / were they have not been released or have been destroyed) of his meeting with the police, all we have is his say so.


----------



## tommers (Sep 12, 2012)

Fucking wankers.  All of them.  Seriously, what kind of people make decisions like this?


----------



## cesare (Sep 12, 2012)

purenarcotic said:


> It all leaves a rather bitter taste in the mouth still really, doesn't it.


That's an understatement for how I feel about it. Nothing against what you said, per se, but I think this coverup over more than two decades was in part intended to try and make sure that when the truth (or something akin to it) finally came out - that it would not be greeted with absolute fury everywhere.


----------



## treelover (Sep 12, 2012)

On my local fora, some idiot is saying ''well who did the crushing then?'' FFS


----------



## Pingu (Sep 12, 2012)

The SUNS SCUMS  headlines tomorrow should be interesting...


----------



## purenarcotic (Sep 12, 2012)

cesare said:


> That's an understatement for how I feel about it. Nothing against what you said, per se, but I think this coverup over more than two decades was in part intended to try and make sure that when the truth (or something akin to it) finally came out - that it would not be greeted with absolute fury everywhere.


 
Oh have no fear, I am furious too. Bitter and furious.  Understand what you mean, though.


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 12, 2012)

cesare said:


> That's an understatement for how I feel about it. Nothing against what you said, per se, but I think this coverup over more than two decades was in part intended to try and make sure that when the truth (or something akin to it) finally came out - that it would not be greeted with absolute fury everywhere.


and seems to have set a 20 year precedent whereby the police routinely lie and smear and the tabloids run with it.


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 12, 2012)

Pingu said:


> The SUNS SCUMS headlines tomorrow should be interesting...


 
Well the sun has cack handedly tried several times to apologise, so I expect they will do the same again.  I want to hear from all those horrible vile scumbags that have backed up the sun over the years.  Whats's Boris got to say?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Sep 12, 2012)

> Whats's Boris got to say?


Just imagining that fills me with rage. Even if he apologised I'd still not trust a word of his Tory court jester/clown act.


----------



## treelover (Sep 12, 2012)

RE: Patnick, when I was NUS the Queen came to open a new wing of the Uni, the then Women's Officer refused to stand up for her, Patnick kept repeatedly and aggressively kicking her chair trying to force her to get up, , shows some of the character of the man...


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 12, 2012)

Rutita1 said:


> Just imagining that fills me with rage. Even if he apologised I'd still not trust a word of his Tory court jester/clown act.


 
I doubt he'll say anything just like Mackenzie, just carry on as if nothing as ever happened.


----------



## tommers (Sep 12, 2012)

Report here... http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/


----------



## sojourner (Sep 12, 2012)

About fucking time

Really didn't think this was gonna be the outcome - so fucking glad this is now out


----------



## sojourner (Sep 12, 2012)

So pens 3 and 4 CLEARLY visible to the coppers from their box then


----------



## Pingu (Sep 12, 2012)

listening to this live on bbc (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19570810#TWEET224995)

now I am not a liverpool fan.. nor even a football fan.. but this really is fucking bad. Not just for the families of the 96 and those injured and traumatised by the events but for the whole country as there are both fundamental failings and the cover ups that followed undermine every authority and organisation involved in this debacle.


----------



## friedaweed (Sep 12, 2012)

At last. The start of* THE TRUTH* now let's see the Justice.

We were right to never give up.

The lies, the scapegoating, cover-ups and outright denial of Justice over the last 23 years have now been uncovered and served on a plate for all to see.

I've spent most of my adult life with the events of that day there in my head like a nightmare that never went away. Today I can stand in the rain at St Georges Hall and hear the names of the 96 read out and find comfort in the fact that we never gave up in our fight for justice.

Like many of my friends and family who were affected by Hillsborough I have always found it hard arguing with people who questioned the plausibility of the fight for Justice. We no longer have to do that, what we always knew is there in black and white.

The blind man's found the black cat and the curtains have been drawn in that dark room.

I'm off to Town to stand with the families of the 96 in solidarity.

Today is their day.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Sep 12, 2012)

And the police still herd groups of protestors into pens or against walls and beat the stragglers to push them further back.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 12, 2012)

Paras 148-9, p25:



> A further document records a meeting in Sheffield of Police Federation members on the morning of the publication of the controversial story in _The Sun_. The Police Federation Secretary, Mr Middup, confirmed that ‘putting our side of the story over to the press and media’ had been his priority. He told the meeting that the Chief Constable had stated that ‘the truth could not come from him’ but he had given the Police Federation a ‘free hand’ and his support.
> At the meeting police officers repeated many of the allegations published in the media. The Chief Constable joined the meeting and advised that the SYP case had to be pulled together and given to the Inquiry. A ‘defence’ had to be prepared and a ‘rock solid story’ presented. He believed that the Force would be ‘exonerated’ by the Taylor Inquiry and considered that ‘blame’ should be directed towards ‘drunken ticketless individuals’.


----------



## treelover (Sep 12, 2012)

It really really does show that behind the 'democratic' veneer, we really are a banana republic...


----------



## temper_tantrum (Sep 12, 2012)

About fucking time.
And now let's see the rest of the paperwork.


----------



## cesare (Sep 12, 2012)

SpookyFrank said:


> And the police still herd groups of protestors into pens or against walls and beat the stragglers to push them further back.


If anything additional comes out of this, I hope that people will start to realise kettling tactics for what they are.


----------



## Dovydaitis (Sep 12, 2012)

still in shock. Knew we would hear some shocking things today, hoped against hope (well it is the condems) that it would all come out. Even so, still shocked by the amount and what has come out. Lets hope that this can be a start to the justice and the healing for all the victims both living and dead


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 12, 2012)

Pages 353-6 - Detailed minutes, dated 27 April 1989, of a Special Joint Branch Board Meeting, Police Federation, South Yorkshire Police, held at the ‘Pickwick’ Restaurant, High Green, Sheffield, 10am, 19 April 1989, TPF000000010001, pp1-12:




> *The Police Federation: ‘Putting our side of the trauma over to the press and media’ *
> 2.12.96 On the morning _The Sun _and other newspapers published the serious allegations against Liverpool fans members of the SYP branch of the Police Federation met in a Sheffield restaurant.44
> 2.12.97 The branch Secretary, PC Middup, addressed the meeting stating that the ‘Chief Constable had been most grateful for the support we had given as he had been in a difficult position’ and ‘it was a measure of the immense esteem in which the Chief Constable held this Board’ that he would be joining the meeting later in the morning.
> 2.12.98 As spokesperson PC Middup ‘wanted to tell the J.B.B. members and the people he represented what he had tried to do, putting our side of the trauma over to the press and media’..
> ...


----------



## cesare (Sep 12, 2012)

DotCommunist said:


> and seems to have set a 20 year precedent whereby the police routinely lie and smear and the tabloids run with it.


Not a precedent though, cf what happened during the miners strikes previously. And before that the fallout from the New Cross fire (for example).


----------



## cesare (Sep 12, 2012)

DaveCinzano said:


> Pages 353-6 - Detailed minutes, dated 27 April 1989, of a Special Joint Branch Board Meeting, Police Federation, South Yorkshire Police, held at the ‘Pickwick’ Restaurant, High Green, Sheffield, 10am, 19 April 1989, TPF000000010001, pp1-12:


 
Bears quoting again.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 12, 2012)

Is the South Yorkshire Police Federation Secretary Paul Middup the same Paul Middup who subsequently served as a director of the Sheffield Credit Union Development Agency?


----------



## treelover (Sep 12, 2012)

It's a strange thing to say, but it was wonderful just watching now the relief and yes, joy, on Trevor Hicks( who lost his two daughters in the disaster) face as he expressed how the families feel vindicated ,


----------



## Dandred (Sep 12, 2012)

Still a lot of unanswered questions but at last the truth is coming out.

That cunt McKenzie.


----------



## cesare (Sep 12, 2012)

DaveCinzano said:


> Is the South Yorkshire Police Federation Secretary Paul Middup the same Paul Middup who subsequently served as a director of the Sheffield Credit Union Development Agency?


http://www.infoguideuk.com/sheffield/agricultural-credit-institutions-in-sheffield/paul-middup-.html


----------



## Dovydaitis (Sep 12, 2012)

gruniad reporting Mackenzie will be giving a statement.


That will be 'interesting'.....


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 12, 2012)

cesare said:


> http://www.infoguideuk.com/sheffield/agricultural-credit-institutions-in-sheffield/paul-middup-.html


Why, it looks like it is! Definitely a man to trust with your money.


----------



## Libertad (Sep 12, 2012)

cesare said:


> http://www.infoguideuk.com/sheffield/agricultural-credit-institutions-in-sheffield/paul-middup-.html


 
Fucking hell, he hasn't even moved his office.


----------



## Favelado (Sep 12, 2012)

Dovydaitis said:


> gruniad reporting Mackenzie will be giving a statement.
> 
> 
> That will be 'interesting'.....


 
It has to be contrite. He's run out of space. I think he'll actually come out with the real apology if he does make a statement.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 12, 2012)

Dovydaitis said:


> gruniad reporting Mackenzie will be giving a statement.
> 
> 
> That will be 'interesting'.....


 
"...health & safety gone mad...communist Guardianistas and thieving scousers...tyranny of political correctness...unelected Eurocrats telling us our bananas can't be curved...you couldn't make it up..."


----------



## treelover (Sep 12, 2012)

The two minutes silence in Liverpool didn't seem very well observed, the tv cameras were doing mostly close in shots, a different city to the one i remember, though i suspect tonight will be a much bigger affair..


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 12, 2012)

Kelvin Mackenzie has just publicly apologised. Just to remind people of how deeply felt his last apology was:




			
				Kelvin Mackenzie said:
			
		

> I was not sorry then and I'm not sorry now... I went on [BBC Radio 4's] World at One the next day and apologised. I only did that because Rupert Murdoch told me to. I wasn't sorry then and I'm not sorry now because we told the truth.


----------



## cesare (Sep 12, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Kelvin Mackenzie has just publicly apologised. Just to remind people of how deeply felt his last apology was:


He's not sorry. The only thing he's sorry about is being finally and thoroughly exposed.


----------



## Dovydaitis (Sep 12, 2012)

he is, and this is a word I use very very very rarely and only in extreme circumstances, a total and utter cunt


----------



## Superdupastupor (Sep 12, 2012)

Did Mackenzie issue his statement during the moments silence?


----------



## Dovydaitis (Sep 12, 2012)

I'm hoping just after but with him you never know


----------



## Favelado (Sep 12, 2012)

cesare said:


> He's not sorry. The only thing he's sorry about is being finally and thoroughly exposed.


 

He'll have to shut the fuck up now though and he has been publicly humiliated. Of course he's not really sorry but we can't uncunt him. Just prove him wrong.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 12, 2012)

Two points:

1. There needs to be a fresh inquiry based on the evidence now available.  
2. The panel was not given a remit to recommend prosecutions against those responsible. This needs to be taken up.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Sep 12, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Kelvin Mackenzie has just publicly apologised. Just to remind people of how deeply felt his last apology was:


 
It beggars belief that he even bothered to further offend with more double-speak.


----------



## purenarcotic (Sep 12, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Kelvin Mackenzie has just publicly apologised. Just to remind people of how deeply felt his last apology was:


 
Well the families have quite rightly told him where to stick his apology.


----------



## cesare (Sep 12, 2012)

Favelado said:


> He'll have to shut the fuck up now though and he has been publicly humiliated. Of course he's not really sorry but we can't uncunt him. Just prove him wrong.


Every time his arrogant smug face pops up on e.g. Question Time, I hope that someone in the audience starts whatever their question is with a reference to this, and his credibility.


----------



## Gingerman (Sep 12, 2012)

cesare said:


> Every time his arrogant smug face pops up on e.g. Question Time, I hope that someone in the audience starts whatever their question is with a reference to this, and his credibility.


What credibility? Hope the cunt's media career is finished after today,don't want to see the bastard on my telly ever again


----------



## purenarcotic (Sep 12, 2012)

Gingerman said:


> What credibility? Hope the cunt's media career is finished after today,don't want to see the bastard on my telly ever again


 
He's a popular figure on This Morning; does their daily news roundup.  I noticed today on their facebook page several people asking where he was, that they liked him etc.  It would be nice if they terminated their contract with him, but I doubt it unfortunately.  

I am penning a complaint / comment to ITV as we speak.


----------



## ddraig (Sep 12, 2012)

cops can't even get the date of the tragedy right! 
ffs


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 12, 2012)

Its ok poor Kelvin was a victim as well, he just faithfully reported the facts as presented to him by a reputable news agency.  Fuck me thats not an apology, he's still not in the slightest bit sorry.  He doesnt give a fuck.


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 12, 2012)

ddraig said:


> cops can't even get the date of the tragedy right!
> ffs


 
It was a terrible interview, no contrition at all.


----------



## treelover (Sep 12, 2012)

purenarcotic said:


> Well the families have quite rightly told him where to stick his apology.


 



> ''This is too little too late, and if the BBC want us ever to have anything to do with them again after today, then he must be off the screens''


 
yes, this is what he said...


----------



## Wilf (Sep 12, 2012)

I can really feel my hatred rising the more details I see.  We knew all this was there, but actually seeing it is another thing.


----------



## Gingerman (Sep 12, 2012)

purenarcotic said:


> It would be nice if they terminated their contract with him, but I doubt it unfortunately.
> 
> I am penning a complaint / comment to ITV as we speak.


Personally I wish he was fucking terminated,vile pig of a man


----------



## Kidda (Sep 12, 2012)

treelover said:


> The two minutes silence in Liverpool didn't seem very well observed, the tv cameras were doing mostly close in shots, a different city to the one i remember, though i suspect tonight will be a much bigger affair..


 
To be fair it was 3.06 on a Wednesday afternoon. A lot of people will be in work/not in the city centre. 

Scousers won't have let down the 96. I imagine quite a lot of them will have this on their minds today.


----------



## Favelado (Sep 12, 2012)

Teaboy said:


> Its ok poor Kelvin was a victim as well, he just faithfully reported the facts as presented to him by a reputable news agency. Fuck me thats not an apology, he's still not in the slightest bit sorry. He doesnt give a fuck.


 
That's true. It does come across like that.


----------



## Kidda (Sep 12, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Kelvin Mackenzie has just publicly apologised. Just to remind people of how deeply felt his last apology was:


 
The full quote is worse



> ''All I did wrong there was tell the truth. There was a surge of Liverpool fans who had been drinking and that is what caused the disaster. The only thing different we did was put it under the headline "The Truth". I went on The World at One the next day and apologised. I only did that because Rupert Murdoch told me to. I wasn't sorry then and I'm not sorry now because we told the truth.'' Kelvin Mackenzie 2006.


----------



## treelover (Sep 12, 2012)

Teaboy said:


> Its ok poor Kelvin was a victim as well, he just faithfully reported the facts as presented to him by a reputable news agency. Fuck me thats not an apology, he's still not in the slightest bit sorry. He doesnt give a fuck.


 

Of course, the journo who wrote the piece said that McKenzie demanded it was published and that it was changed from 'claims that fans urinated, etc '' to clearly accussing them of it and of course it was given the The Truth', headline..

'though of course the journo is still culpable to a degree..


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Sep 12, 2012)

Pingu said:


> The SUNS SCUMS headlines tomorrow should be interesting...


 






Every bastard involved in this fucking cover up should stand before a court of law.


----------



## dennisr (Sep 12, 2012)

*one survivor recalls football's darkest day*

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/hillsborough-documents-released-survivor-damian-1317380


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 12, 2012)

treelover said:


> The two minutes silence in Liverpool didn't seem very well observed, the tv cameras were doing mostly close in shots, a different city to the one i remember, though i suspect tonight will be a much bigger affair..


 
The service is at 5.00pm tonight. All roads in the city are being closed to traffic.

The 2 minute silence was perfectly observed btw.

JF96


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 12, 2012)

Seems odd that Colin Moynihan - then minister/'miniature' for sport - is only mentioned 3 times in the report and always incidentally.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 12, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Seems odd that Colin Moynihan - then minister/'miniature' for sport - is only mentioned 3 times in the report and always incidentally.


 
Thatcher and Ingham don't get much coverage either do they?


----------



## Garek (Sep 12, 2012)

On page 7 of the report. Good to see this finally out (albeit partly). And it certainly highlights the collective mindset of contempt the police have.


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 12, 2012)

there will be no apology from thatch, she probably can't even remember it anymore


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 12, 2012)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Thatcher and Ingham don't get much coverage either do they?


Ingham only to highlight the gap between what he said the days following and what he said years later. She's there a fair bit but as 'the prime minister' - but even then it's mostly showing that she was informed of the dodginess of the police claims/behaviour but indicated that she was more concerned about supporting them and not allowing anything to tarnish their public reputation whilst not looking to 'protect' the top officer.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 12, 2012)

purenarcotic said:


> Is Cameron going to say anything other than 'I need to read the report'. Also, when asked if he would read the report from cover to cover, I notice he never actually said 'yes', just skirted around. What an arsehole.


 
Some wonk or other will condense it down to "Readers' Digest" proportions for him, of which he'll probably only read the executive summary.


----------



## Fedayn (Sep 12, 2012)

Sheila Colman...



> Sheila Coleman of the Hillsborough Justice Campaign welcomed the apology made by Prime Minister David Cameron.
> She told BBC Radio 4’s World at One: “Of course (the apology) is welcome, because it is an acknowledgement that Liverpool, the bereaved families and the fans have been telling the truth for years and yet have been considered liars.”
> She added: “Without doubt the inquest verdicts have to be quashed. David Cameron batted this back to the Attorney General. The Attorney General needs to surely, with the evidence presented to him today and the evidence previously presented to him, must quash the inquest verdicts in all cases.
> “With the clear evidence that fans could have been saved — and the evidence is there — he needs to give all of those 96 victims their right under law, the right to a fair hearing. It needs a full inquiry into how they died.”
> Asked if she believed criminal charges should now be brought, Ms Coleman said: “I do, because all the evidence today shows that South Yorkshire Police and people in South Yorkshire Police lied and operated a cover-up.”


 


I just got back to my section after leaving it in tears reading some of the stuff...........

As an Evertonian, as a socialist, as a football fan as a working class bloke i'm in awe and admiration at the families who refused to give in and refused to have their loved ones smeared in the way they were.

To paraphrase Trevor Hicks, today isn't justice, it's truth, the justice can now be looked at.... I fucking hope so, I really fucking hope so.

John Alfred Anderson (62)
Colin Mark Ashcroft (19)
James Gary Aspinall (18)
Kester Roger Marcus Ball (16)
Gerard Bernard Patrick Baron (67)
Simon Bell (17)
Barry Sidney Bennett (26)
David John Benson (22)
David William Birtle (22)
Tony Bland (22)
Paul David Brady (21)
Andrew Mark Brookes (26)
Carl Brown (18)
David Steven Brown (25)
Henry Thomas Burke (47)
Peter Andrew Burkett (24)
Paul William Carlile (19)
Raymond Thomas Chapman (50)
Gary Christopher Church (19)
Joseph Clark (29)
Paul Clark (18)
Gary Collins (22)
Stephen Paul Copoc (20)
Tracey Elizabeth Cox (23)
James Philip Delaney (19)
Christopher Barry Devonside (18)
Christopher Edwards (29)
Vincent Michael Fitzsimmons (34)
Thomas Steven Fox (21)
Jon-Paul Gilhooley (10)
Barry Glover (27)
Ian Thomas Glover (20)
Derrick George Godwin (24)
Roy Harry Hamilton (34)
Philip Hammond (14)
Eric Hankin (33)
Gary Harrison (27)
Stephen Francis Harrison (31)
Peter Andrew Harrison (15)
David Hawley (39)
James Robert Hennessy (29)
Paul Anthony Hewitson (26)
Carl Darren Hewitt (17)
Nicholas Michael Hewitt (16)
Sarah Louise Hicks (19)
Victoria Jane Hicks (15)
Gordon Rodney Horn (20)
Arthur Horrocks (41)
Thomas Howard (39)
Thomas Anthony Howard (14)
Eric George Hughes (42)
Alan Johnston (29)
Christine Anne Jones (27)
Gary Philip Jones (18)
Richard Jones (25)
Nicholas Peter Joynes (27)
Anthony Peter Kelly (29)
Michael David Kelly (38)
Carl David Lewis (18)
David William Mather (19)
Brian Christopher Mathews (38)
Francis Joseph McAllister (27)
John McBrien (18)
Marion Hazel McCabe (21)
Joseph Daniel McCarthy (21)
Peter McDonnell (21)
Alan McGlone (28)
Keith McGrath (17)
Paul Brian Murray (14)
Lee Nicol (14)
Stephen Francis O'Neill (17)
Jonathon Owens (18)
William Roy Pemberton (23)
Carl William Rimmer (21)
David George Rimmer (38)
Graham John Roberts (24)
Steven Joseph Robinson (17)
Henry Charles Rogers (17)
Colin Andrew Hugh William Sefton (23)
Inger Shah (38)
Paula Ann Smith (26)
Adam Edward Spearritt (14)
Philip John Steele (15)
David Leonard Thomas (23)
Patrik John Thompson (35)
Peter Reuben Thompson (30)
Stuart Paul William Thompson (17)
Peter Francis Tootle (21)
Christopher James Traynor (26)
Martin Kevin Traynor (16)
Kevin Tyrrell (15)
Colin Wafer (19)
Ian David Whelan (19)
Martin Kenneth Wild (29)
Kevin Daniel Williams (15)
Graham John Wright (17)


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 12, 2012)

DotCommunist said:


> and seems to have set a 20 year precedent whereby the police routinely lie and smear and the tabloids run with it.


 
That precedent has been in place for a hell of a lot longer than 20 years, unfortunately. 
Hillsborough was and is a particularly awful manifestation of the phenomenon, though.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 12, 2012)

cesare said:


> Every time his arrogant smug face pops up on e.g. Question Time, I hope that someone in the audience starts whatever their question is with a reference to this, and his credibility.


 
"Does the panel, including the liar and black propagandist Kelvin McKenzie, agree...?"


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 12, 2012)

Fucking hell.

Even as a confirmed cynic of all those in power, the scale of this shit is truly shocking


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 12, 2012)

when syp fuck things up they really fuck things up


----------



## Garek (Sep 12, 2012)

Chief Constable of South Yorkshire issues apology



> The statement added: “On that day, South Yorkshire Police failed the victims and families. The police lost control.


 
I think that's bollocks. It seems as though it wasn't that they lost control more they tried maintain a vice like grip on it at all costs.


----------



## audiotech (Sep 12, 2012)

The BBC, Liverpool:

Hillsborough Report: Key Findings.


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 12, 2012)

Garek said:


> Chief Constable of South Yorkshire issues apology
> I think that's bollocks. It seems as though it wasn't that they lost control more they tried maintain a vice like grip on it at all costs.


 
I mentioned it earlier but the interview he gave to the beeb was nothing short of disgusting, its like he was still defending the intial enquiry findings - loss of control, brave police let down by a couple of bad senior officers etc etc.  He just acted like the massive cover up which his force perpetrated and had just been exposed for had never happened.

Long time ago, few bad apples, they all lied changed their evidence on legal advice, couldnt happen now etc etc etc.  The whole interview was an insult to intelligence.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 12, 2012)

Garek said:


> Chief Constable of South Yorkshire issues apology
> 
> 
> 
> I think that's bollocks. It seems as though it wasn't that they lost control more they tried maintain a vice like grip on it at all costs.





> Asked if a similar police cover-up could happen again, he said: “I don’t think that the standards that were employed then in any way correspond to the sorts of standards of openness and transparency that any of us would expect these days.”


hmmm. i'm not so sure. there's lots of police cover-ups - mark duggan, jean charles de menezes, azelle rodney...


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 12, 2012)

audiotech said:


> The BBC, Liverpool:
> 
> Hillsborough Report: Key Findings.


executive summary: the cover-up was worse than anyone had thought.


----------



## Wilf (Sep 12, 2012)

In passing and off topic, those who love conspiracy theories should take note.  It's nothing to do with aliens, vaccines and mind control, just powerful people twisting the levers of power in mundane but despicable ways.  Just plain lying and making others lie on your behalf.

Same time, it's a staggering achievenment for the familes to get this far.


----------



## Balbi (Sep 12, 2012)

Agreed Pickmans, this whole 'but this was ages ago' made me think of the Menezes, and the Tomlinson case. The difference being the media, and people's ability to record and share information, means its much harder to get away with. It doesn't stop them trying though.

I wonder how many SYP cases those amending officers were involved in are now really, really unsound.


----------



## scifisam (Sep 12, 2012)

'Lost control' sounds like blaming the fans again, because what is he saying they lost control of but the fans?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Sep 12, 2012)

scifisam said:


> 'Lost control' sounds like blaming the fans again, because what is he saying they lost control of but the fans?


 
This.

Also, where is mention of the purposeful attempt at a cover up by altering/editing statements?


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 12, 2012)

strange that, the Beeb news seems to be leading with camerons apology. Rather than the admission of a total coverup by syp.


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 12, 2012)

Teaboy said:


> I mentioned it earlier but the interview he gave to the beeb was nothing short of disgusting, its like he was still defending the intial enquiry findings - loss of control, brave police let down by a couple of bad senior officers etc etc. He just acted like the massive cover up which his force perpetrated and had just been exposed for had never happened.
> 
> Long time ago, few bad apples, they all lied changed their evidence on legal advice, couldnt happen now etc etc etc. The whole interview was an insult to intelligence.


 
The more I think about this interview the more angry I'm getting.  The reaction of anyone normal to this whole event will be one of total shock and disgust, you could even hear MP's gasping as Cameron read out all the details, but not the chief of sy police, he really didnt appear to give much of a shit, why? 

Well partly because he already knew and has done for years but also because he doesnt really care, they only thing he cares about is the repuatation of the force which is exactly the thinking which motavated the original cover-up. 

Have they changed?  Have they fuck.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 12, 2012)

DotCommunist said:


> strange that, the Beeb news seems to be leading with camerons apology. Rather than the admission of a total coverup by syp.


i don't think it's strange at all.


----------



## N_igma (Sep 12, 2012)

Can I say thanks to the fans of other clubs who have stood behind the victims and families every step of the way.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 12, 2012)

what i want to know is, what happened to the person who lived by the archway roundabout who, for years, had a justice for the 96 poster in their window? must have been seen by hundreds and hundreds of thousands of people.


----------



## Balbi (Sep 12, 2012)

Andy Burnham must be feeling justified today in fucking off the thirty year rule and setting up the independent panel.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 12, 2012)

From p343:




> On Tuesday 18 April, writing in the _Liverpool Daily Post_, John Williams noted that ‘the gatecrashers wreaked their fatal havoc’, their ‘uncontrolled fanaticism and mass hysteria ... literally squeezed the life out of men, women and children’.14 It was ‘yobbism at its most base’ as ‘Scouse killed Scouse for no better reason than 22 men were kicking a ball’.


 
Is that the same John Williams who currently lectures on sociology at Leicester, and who was a go-to guy for journos wanting an academic quote on hooliganism (alongside Clifford Stott)?


----------



## 19sixtysix (Sep 12, 2012)

Not read thread but heard via PM on R4 that 160 cops changed their notes. Surely this will lead to the biggest trial ever for conspiracy to pervert the course of justice and misconduct in a public office given these statements were used in evidence.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 12, 2012)

_The Sun_:



> ...Today the report revealed that the source for the false allegations was a Sheffield news agency reporting conversations with South Yorkshire Police and Irvine Patnick, the then MP for Sheffield Hallam.
> 
> Kelvin MacKenzie, who was the editor of The Sun at the time of the Hillsborough tragedy and who wrote the headline The Truth, today offered his “profuse apologies to the people of Liverpool for that headline”.
> 
> ...


----------



## treelover (Sep 12, 2012)

posts on local fora still saying ''lots of drunken fans were seen at the White Horse Pub'',

were there any, does it matter?


----------



## treelover (Sep 12, 2012)

Margaret Thatcher was misinformed by a senior Merseyside police officer that "drunken Liverpool fans" were to blame for causing the Hillsborough disaster, according to confidential documents leaked to the BBC. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/foo...-Thatcher.html


----------



## Voley (Sep 12, 2012)

To say I feel mixed emotions today is a massive understatement. I'm amazed that so much has been admitted but I'm cautious that the devil may well still lie in the detail. While I'm elated that the panel has delivered such a crushing report, I'm furious that the dead and the bereaved have been vilified for so long. The verdict of accidental death must now be quashed and there must be prosecutions for perverting the course of justice. Guilty policemen happily enjoying their retirements must be made to account for their actions. And there still remains the question of just how high it went, who knew what right at the top.

I hope the families and friends of the 96 get a bit of comfort today. I hope this is the beginning of them getting some justice. This is a great day but a terribly sad one, too.

JFT96


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Sep 12, 2012)

^^ Amen to that!


----------



## treelover (Sep 12, 2012)

> he report published today lays no blame on those that perished and quite rightly so, I think we have all known that from the start. I was there on the day in the build up and gave evidence to the West Midlands police enquiry. I'm sure my statement is there within all the documents. Over an hour before kick off police on horseback tried to move a few large groups of Liverpool fans gathered on Leppings Lane corner towards the ground. Many of these turned round and went in the opposite direction
> 
> In those days of terracing and with capacities often ignored, it was customary and a badge of honour for fans of big clubs to try and get in without tickets, either bribing turnstile operators or turning up late in the hope of overwhelming those in control. We can only assume the police made a huge misjudgement on the basis of past experience, a knee jerk reaction in those days was to believe all football fans to be hooligans. This mindset, coupled with the poor design and state of the ground, meant crowd control was all about stopping trouble and not protecting safety
> 
> ...


 
Post on local fora, with some very controversial points at the end...


----------



## treelover (Sep 12, 2012)

'BBC RADIO SHEFFIELD: Former MP Irvine Patnick refuses to answer his Sheffield home door, despite looking at us through window...'


----------



## audiotech (Sep 12, 2012)

It wasn't "previous generations acting like animals" that led to the Ilbrox disasters in 1902, with 25 dead and 515 injured and again in 1971, with 66 dead, as well as the Bradford City Stadium fire in 1985, killing 56, injuring at least 265, and clearly, as the HIP report states, neither in the events that led up to 96 people dying at Hillsborough.


----------



## treelover (Sep 12, 2012)

eh, I am just posting what some 'locals' are saying, most are very angry about what happened and the relevations today..


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 12, 2012)

treelover said:


> eh, I am just posting what some 'locals' are saying, most are very angry about what happened and the relevations today..


you're not going off on one again, because of some invisible pop you think someone's had at you?


----------



## Voley (Sep 12, 2012)

Sitting here pretty fucking choked now tbh. Just about held it together as the news was coming through at work but it's got to me now.

23 years. 23 fucking years.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 12, 2012)

NVP said:


> Sitting here pretty fucking choked now tbh. Just about held it together as the news was coming through at work but it's got to me now.
> 
> 23 years. 23 fucking years.


if the british state always acted so swiftly we could have started to put bloody sunday behind us in 1995.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 12, 2012)

NVP said:


> Sitting here pretty fucking choked now tbh. Just about held it together as the news was coming through at work but it's got to me now.
> 
> 23 years. 23 fucking years.



If anything good has come out of all of this it's that the truth actually can come out sometimes and those who voiced suspicions for all of this time have finally been vindicated.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Sep 12, 2012)

19sixtysix said:


> Not read thread but heard via PM on R4 that 160 cops changed their notes. Surely this will lead to the biggest trial ever for conspiracy to pervert the course of justice and misconduct in a public office given these statements were used in evidence.


I understood that it was senior officers that changed the notes. Well, that was the impression I got anyway.


----------



## audiotech (Sep 12, 2012)

treelover said:


> eh, I am just posting what some 'locals' are saying, most are very angry about what happened and the relevations today..


 
These "locals" are shifting the blame. The information is clear, as they admit themselves, point it out.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 12, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> I understood that it was senior officers that changed the notes. Well, that was the impression I got anyway.


they were busy then, altering more than a hundred lots of notes.


----------



## Iguana (Sep 12, 2012)

Today has been eye-opening for me. Not the findings of the investigation but so many of the comments I've read from people across the internet. I can't believe at that so many people still believed the official/Sun version of events. I thought that the fact there had been a police fuck up and subsequent cover up was common accepted knowledge.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 12, 2012)

Iguana said:


> Today has been eye-opening for me. Not the findings of the investigation but so many of the comments I've read from people across the internet. I can't believe at that so many people still believed the official/Sun version of events. I thought that the fact there had been a police fuck up and subsequent cover up was common accepted knowledge.


it was *here*


----------



## Athos (Sep 12, 2012)

My Mrs just remarked how the Tienanmen Square Massacre happened at around the same time, and how she had thought herself lucky to live in a country where people could not die as a consequence of state's actions without those responsible being held to account.  Twenty three years later it appears that the only difference between the UK and the brutal Chinese dictatorship was how the former is better at concealing its culpability.  A truly terrifying thought.

It sickens me how it can be 'deny, deny, deny' for all those years, but that when it all comes out, people are falling over themselves to apologise.

And, as has already been observed here, this isn't justice, but the truth is a step in the direction of justice.

Massive respect to all those who never gave up.


----------



## dylanredefined (Sep 12, 2012)

Iguana said:


> Today has been eye-opening for me. Not the findings of the investigation but so many of the comments I've read from people across the internet. I can't believe at that so many people still believed the official/Sun version of events. I thought that the fact there had been a police fuck up and subsequent cover up was common accepted knowledge.


           There are a lot people who hate and resent Liverpool and will happily believe anything bad about Liverpool and scousers.


----------



## bluestreak (Sep 12, 2012)

well said NVP.  i totally agree.


----------



## bluestreak (Sep 12, 2012)

dylanredefined said:


> There are a lot people who hate and resent Liverpool and will happily believe anything bad about Liverpool and scousers.


 
also, i hate Liverpool FC and Liverpool fans.  I hate Liverpool the City.  Awful people, awful place.  IME, obv.  But no-one deserves to be treated like that by the state and by the media and by other human beings.  if a person can't see beyond football or regional loyalties to understand that this was a godawful miscarriage of justice then quite frankly they should be dropped into an active volcano.


----------



## killer b (Sep 12, 2012)

bluestreak said:


> also, i hate Liverpool FC and Liverpool fans.  I hate Liverpool the City.  Awful people, awful place.  IME, obv.


 really? You can't have had much experience then.


----------



## dylanredefined (Sep 12, 2012)

bluestreak said:


> also, i hate Liverpool FC and Liverpool fans. I hate Liverpool the City. Awful people, awful place. IME, obv. But no-one deserves to be treated like that by the state and by the media and by other human beings. if a person can't see beyond football or regional loyalties to understand that this was a godawful miscarriage of justice then quite frankly they should be dropped into an active volcano.


       Unfortunatly  people are bastards


----------



## purenarcotic (Sep 12, 2012)

I don't really think this is the time or place to be making sweeping generalisations about a city or the people who live in it tbh. 

It has all sunk in now, feel terribly, terribly sad. RIP to the 96, please let this be the start of proper justice.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 12, 2012)

Iguana said:


> Today has been eye-opening for me. Not the findings of the investigation but so many of the comments I've read from people across the internet. I can't believe at that so many people still believed the official/Sun version of events. I thought that the fact there had been a police fuck up and subsequent cover up was common accepted knowledge.



It was on the left.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 12, 2012)

killer b said:


> really? You can't have had much experience then.



He was paraphrasing.


----------



## bluestreak (Sep 12, 2012)

.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 12, 2012)

Or maybe not.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 12, 2012)

bluestreak said:


> nope, only been twice, once in my teens as a tourist and once as an adult giving a training course up there. both times i was abused and insulted in the street by passing locals more than one, threatened with violence, and subjected to a beatles nostalgia campaign that made me want to throw up my own ears.  even romford hasn't been so utterly utterly unpleasant.  our liverpool tenants were always burning each others house down too.  what the fuck is up with that?
> 
> but that's prejudice based on a limited experience and i accept that.  just because i have this prejudice doesn't mean that i believed the horseshit that was spun about hilsborough.



You wouldn't survive a minute in Middlesbrough then.


----------



## bluestreak (Sep 12, 2012)

.


----------



## bluestreak (Sep 12, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> You wouldn't survive a minute in Middlesbrough then.


 
noted.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 12, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> You wouldn't survive a minute in Middlesbrough then.


few people would.


----------



## Fedayn (Sep 12, 2012)

Sheila Coleman interview on todays findings.​


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 12, 2012)

bluestreak said:


> noted.



There's fuck all to see there anyway.


----------



## Fedayn (Sep 12, 2012)

Can you take this somewhere else please?


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 12, 2012)

bluestreak said:


> sorry.  they weren't nice to me and i bear a grudge. i have no doubt that outside of my head liverpool people are just as good as everyone else and i'm sorry to anyone who was offended.



What's surprising though is that I doubt you'd accept someone else saying the same on racial grounds based on little to no experience. 

"I don't like blacks because one nicked my wallet once" or somesuch. I'd expect you'd have an argument at the ready there.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 12, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> Can you take this somewhere else please?



No worries and yeah this is too important to derail. Sorry mate.


----------



## 19sixtysix (Sep 12, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> I understood that it was senior officers that changed the notes. Well, that was the impression I got anyway.


 
I wonder how many pcs then used these notes in a court.


----------



## tommers (Sep 12, 2012)

.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 12, 2012)

tommers said:


> .


----------



## Fedayn (Sep 12, 2012)

Only a year ago......


----------



## sleaterkinney (Sep 12, 2012)

Balbi said:


> Andy Burnham must be feeling justified today in fucking off the thirty year rule and setting up the independent panel.


He did well and without him this might never have come out, better than Jack Straw who also did another whitewash inquest, lets not forget that.




> On the 6 October 1997, Lord Justice Stuart-Smith was at the Maritime Museum in Liverpool's Docklands area. He was there to listen to any new evidence from families. Any optimism families might have had was swiftly diminished when the judge set the tone for the proceedings by stating to one bereaved father:
> 
> "Have you got a few of your people or are they like the liverpool fans, turn up at the last minute."


 
http://www.contrast.org/hillsborough/history/stuartsmith.shtm

This is what the families have had to put up with before now. I'm glad the truth is being told and hopefully it will lead to prosecutions. Duckenfield retired on a full pension and some of the police got payouts for trauma - the insurance company accepted there had been a loss of command.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 12, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> Only a year ago......


Tuesday Cottage
Quainton
Aylesbury
Buckinghamshire
HP22 4AS

if anyone feels like dropping him a line.


----------



## tommers (Sep 12, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


>



Just a continuation of the derail before I saw the request not to derail.  Carry on.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 12, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> I understood that it was senior officers that changed the notes. Well, that was the impression I got anyway.


You would do well to read through the appropriate passage, then - Chapter 15 (p315-339).

The subject is dealt with in some detail. Officers were instructed on the Sunday not to use their pocket books or CJA forms (as trained). Instead an ad hoc arrangement of recording their 'recollections' for submission to the Taylor Inquiry as "a formal proof of evidence", and in support of the Chief Constable's own evidence, was developed by senior management at SYT in conjunction with the Force's solicitors, Hammond Suddards. Chief Superintendent Terry Wain was tasked with arranging the process, and in a briefing on 26 April he explained to those who would be providing 'recollections' what was required, following a template suggested by the lawyers.

'Recollections' were made on plain paper, not on standard documents like CJA forms. At the same time, the WMP was investigating the SYP's role in the disaster. SYP had anticipated that WMP would interview its officer-witnesses, but WMP indicated it would take written evidence instead. There was concern in the SYP that these written 'recollections' - intended only for Taylor in support of the SYP senior management evidence - might then be used at inquests or disciplinaries. The Force solicitors duly reviewed the 'recollections' before they were sent to WMP.

In the words of Chief Superintendent Donald Denton of the SYP Incident Room, who alongside Peter Metcalf of Hammond Sudards, oversaw the review of 'recollections': "Nothing currently in our possession will be released to W/Mids until it has been vetted by our legal representatives."

The process of taking 'recollections' was expanded to include those of officers from forces other than SYP on duty at Hillsborough; the review and vetting continued into June. The vetting was justified within SYP (e.g. by Assistant Chief Constable Stuart Anderson) on the grounds that statements might be entered into the record during the Inquiry, without being challenged in cross-examination - accordingly a rationale was developed for "editing them for use as a factual statement". Both WMP and the Treasury Department were aware of this vetting process. SYP categorised elements in the 'recollections' to be 'edited' thus (numbers of recollections affected):

▪ Grammatical clarification, redundant language and jargon (194)
▪ Informal or coarse language (22)
▪ Criticisms of the police response or inadequate leadership (116)
▪ Poor communications or inadequate radio contact (48)
▪ Deletion of references to ‘chaos’, ‘fear’, ‘panic’ or ‘confusion’ (23)
▪ Abusive criticism of supporters (33)

ACC Anderson required that officers 'agreed' to the changes. It seems that officers were told that "alterations were made to exclude personal opinion", but that they were not shown their original 'recollections' for comparison when asked to sign off the vetted versions.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Sep 12, 2012)

59 out of 96 could have survived. Heartbreaking.


----------



## cantsin (Sep 12, 2012)

bluestreak said:


> nope, only been twice, once in my teens as a tourist and once as an adult giving a training course up there. both times i was abused and insulted in the street by passing locals more than one, threatened with violence, and subjected to a beatles nostalgia campaign that made me want to throw up my own ears. even romford hasn't been so utterly utterly unpleasant. our liverpool tenants were always burning each others house down too. what the fuck is up with that?


 
they can spot complete whoppers a mile away up there, dont take it personally


----------



## Favelado (Sep 12, 2012)

A momentous day, if not one for outright celebration. The day the ignorance about Hillsborough died.

RIP the 96.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 12, 2012)

Fair play you doing some leg work here DaveCinzano.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Sep 12, 2012)

DaveCinzano said:


> You would do well to read through the appropriate passage, then - Chapter 15 (p315-339).


Thanks for that clarification, it was the impression I got from listening to the news on the radio.

I know one thing for sure. Kelvin McKenzie's apology was incredibly hollow, decades too late and bearing in mind his previous arrogant pronouncements, I hope his career is finished. It would be a happy thing to see him on JSA


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 12, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> Fair play you doing some leg work here DaveCinano.


Not so much legwork - more reading.


----------



## Red Cat (Sep 12, 2012)

bluestreak said:


> sorry. they weren't nice to me and i bear a grudge. i have no doubt that outside of my head liverpool people are just as good as everyone else and i'm sorry to anyone who was offended.


 
I keep trying to ignore you but I think you should delete your posts. A friend of mine died at Hillsborough and I'd like you to delete them.


----------



## Gingerman (Sep 12, 2012)

Dandred said:


> Still a lot of unanswered questions but at last the truth is coming out.
> 
> That cunt McKenzie.


 
Interesting that even the Daily Mail dropped him as a columnist a month ago..bet he goes crawling back to Uncle Rupie...hope he becomes a toxic brand.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 12, 2012)

DaveCinzano said:


> Not so much legwork - more reading.



You wouldn't survive for a minute in Middlesbrough either.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 12, 2012)

Peter Metcalf was a Senior Partner at SYP's lawyers Hammond Suddards. That law firm was merged with Edge Ellison in 2000 and then with Squire, Sanders & Dempsey in 2011. Squire Sanders is now a significant global law firm, with 1,300 lawyers across 37 offices in 18 countries.

http://www.squiresanders.com/


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 12, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> You wouldn't survive for a minute in Middlesbrough either.



It's an idiom for graft.


----------



## cantsin (Sep 12, 2012)

we shouldnt forget the loveable clown Bozza at a time like this :

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/m...-an-entire-city-shy-and-his-boss-6159847.html


----------



## bluestreak (Sep 12, 2012)

Red Cat said:


> I keep trying to ignore you but I think you should delete your posts. A friend of mine died at Hillsborough and I'd like you to delete them.


 
if you like. i guess this isn't really the right time or place.  my apologies.


----------



## Favelado (Sep 12, 2012)

What a quote...

"While the tabloid screamed that "the truth" was fans pickpocketing victims and urinating on cops, the real truth was the police probing victims' criminal records and taking blood samples from dead children in the hope of establishing drunkenness."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012/sep/12/hillsborough-report-contempt-coverup-editorial


----------



## UrbaneFox (Sep 12, 2012)

19sixtysix said:


> Not read thread but heard via PM on R4 that 160 cops changed their notes. Surely this will lead to the biggest trial ever for conspiracy to pervert the course of justice and misconduct in a public office given these statements were used in evidence.


They can't all have retired on full pay and be too ill to give evidence / have been diagnosed with Alzheimer's.


----------



## Hollis (Sep 12, 2012)

This is one of the few news stories that genuinly makes me angry.  Today's a victory of sorts, but only where we should have been 23 years ago.. Is any copper ever going to be brought to account for their actions that day?


----------



## temper_tantrum (Sep 12, 2012)

I agree with Red Cat.

RIP the 96. The truth is out at last. Let's hope everyone in the country will now back the continued fight for justice.

The families' dignity is very inspiring.


----------



## DexterTCN (Sep 12, 2012)

The Telegraph website currently ranks it lower than the new iphone, an archaeolology story and some royal wants a baby.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 12, 2012)

DexterTCN said:


> The Telegraph website currently ranks it lower than the new iphone, an archaeolology story and some royal wants a baby.


&?


----------



## friedaweed (Sep 12, 2012)

Just got in from the Vigil at St Georges Hall.
Under the cloud of lies and attempts at turning the blame on the fans that so closely followed the disaster no former memorial has ever felt like a real one, for me anyway. For years i've attended the services at Anfield and whist we were always there to pay our respects to our fallen brothers and sisters there has always been a bitter taste in the back of your throat knowing that whilst you stood there a lot of people still believed the lies. People still questioned the families search for Justice. We didn't, we always knew the truth but we knew attempts had been made to write history in the form of bodged inquests, dishonest tabloid headlines, flawed Judicial enquiries, rumours of blame in those that had to live with surviving the event and doubt in the minds of a lot of the nation spun from the stereotyping of a whole city based upon the wrongdoings of a few. I've heard it all over the years. "Scousers were always forcing the gates open at grounds" "What about Heysel?" "Why don't you just let it go?" "There's been an Inquiry is that not enough now?" "It's like a blind man in a dark room looking for a cat that isn't there".

Tonight was very different. In some ways it felt like the first proper memorial because we all stood side by side in solidarity in the knowledge that the truth was finally out. I stood next to a man who was just as big as me, just as ugly and just as old as me, who like me was there with his kids. Looking into each others waterlogged eyes and smiling we shook hands. There was no need to speak. No need to exchange stories of how our own individual lives had been changed by the 15th of April 1989 you never have to explain that. Generally you know if you're there at such an occasion everyone has their story. People have asked me over the years "Did you know anyone who died at Hillsborough?" I've always given the same answer. Everyone I knew when I was 20 years old knew someone that had died at Hillsborough. I've always dealt with my grief quite privately. For ten years after the event I couldn't even bare going to the match let alone talk about the disaster. My best mate still can't stand/sit on a terrace at a football match and was even too upset today to attend tonight's Vigil.

To be the sibling, wife, husband, father, mother, grandparent, grandchild, cousin, friend, workmate of someone who either died or survived on that day has been a like having to live a life with a little ever constant niggle in your head. That niggle has always been that you know history's account of those events is wrong.

Today for many of us that niggle has been proven to be just and at last there's some vindication in your heart for not erasing that niggle from your mind and forcing yourself to live with it for 23 years.

I took my two youngest children tonight. I've never talked to them about my own personal experiences of Hillsborough. I don't really talk to anyone about that. I have though brought them up as reds (Much to my own bluenose families dislike  ) and explained why we have the eternal flame on our crest and they have both been with me to the match and visited the memorial before the game. I've explained to them why we sing "Justice for the 96" on the Kop and why as a Red they are part of one big family of Liverpool fans.

I took them tonight though, not because I wanted them to experience the night as a fan but because I wanted them to learn that if something is wrong you should never give up on putting it right. As we were coming through the tunnel on the way home my 13 year old daughter made me choke when she said.

"It's a good job they never gave up Dad"

Job done.







As a fellow urbanite I ask you to look at the pictures of the 96 on the following link.
They weren't ticketless drunken fans. They weren't hubcap robbing scum. They weren't the people who forced their way into games, they weren't responsible for Heysel, they were 96 individuals that went to a football match to support a football team and never came home.
http://www.liverpoolfc.com/history/hillsborough


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 12, 2012)

friedaweed said:


> As a fellow urbanite I ask you to look at the pictures of the 96 on the following link.
> They weren't ticketless drunken fans. They weren't hubcap robbing scum. They weren't the people who forced their way into games, they weren't responsible for Heysel, they were 96 individuals that went to a football match to support a football team and never came home.
> http://www.liverpoolfc.com/history/hillsborough


i've never given a flying fuck if they were hubcap robbing scum or alkies or the girl next door or responsible for heysel or whatnot. it doesn't matter to me whether they were hoolies or law-abiding librarians. what happened to them was wrong, end of. there isn't, to my mind, a hierarchy of the 96 or a hierarchy of those who died at bradford. and frankly it shouldn't matter a jot to anyone whether they were nice people or nasty people, whether they'd had a pint or whether they'd have a few shorts or anything.

rip all of them, and good luck to you, the other survivors and the families and friends of the dead in the quest for the next stage of justice.


----------



## shaman75 (Sep 12, 2012)

Fuck 'em all.

Bunch of lying, cheating thieving bastards, throughout government, the press and the police.

I remember that day and going to Anfield as a child and seeing all those flowers and scarves.  Still upsets me to this day.  Was welling up just watching a documentary the other night.

And people still buy The Sun...


----------



## audiotech (Sep 12, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> Sheila Coleman interview on todays findings.


 
Powerful.


----------



## Wilf (Sep 12, 2012)

audiotech said:


> Powerful.


 Agreed (though just for once you'd hope the fuckin' moneygrabbing guardian could leave the advert off the front of that clip).


----------



## N_igma (Sep 12, 2012)

Hollis said:


> Is any copper ever going to be brought to account for their actions that day?


 
Not likely when you look at precedents like Bloody Sunday.


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 12, 2012)

I just hope the AG opens another inquiry and has some of these liars held to account- I am no follower of football and it was before my time but has always struck me as an astonishing injustice and a whitewash. 

aside from the finally admitted truth- which must mean so much to those who were involved and those who have been mugged off for so long- we have bona fide evidence of a total police coverup.No more hedging, no more questioning. They actively sought to lie and were aided by the right wing press. This has been exposed finally. It has wider implications, Ihope. This utterly routine police/tabloid love in may finally get the scrutiny it deserves- just as with a new inquest the families might finally see some of the arse-covering iars brought to justice.


----------



## Voley (Sep 12, 2012)

Great post, frieda.


----------



## Wilf (Sep 12, 2012)

So what are the likely routes now then?  New inquest as the first priority - followed by potential prosecutions if there's an unlawful killing verdict - and then private prosecustions for damages when that doesn't get anywhere?  Going to be another long haul.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Sep 12, 2012)

On Newsnight now


----------



## agricola (Sep 12, 2012)

Wilf said:


> So what are the likely routes now then? New inquest as the first priority - followed by potential prosecutions if there's an unlawful killing verdict - and then private prosecustions for damages when that doesn't get anywhere? Going to be another long haul.


 
An inquest almost certainly, though there would be no need to wait until afterwards (or for an unlawful killing verdict) for at least some prosecutions to take place, given the allegations of tampering with evidence, fibs to the various public inquiries etc etc.  Indeed given the difficulty of securing convictions in this case for manslaughter by gross negligence its more likely the cover up will result in a better chance of convictions than the act itself.


----------



## Gingerman (Sep 12, 2012)

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/hillsborough-documents-released-brian-reade-1318730
Powerfull moving stuff


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 12, 2012)

agricola said:


> An inquest almost certainly, though there would be no need to wait until afterwards (or for an unlawful killing verdict) for at least some prosecutions to take place, given the allegations of tampering with evidence, fibs to the various public inquiries etc etc. Indeed given the difficulty of securing convictions in this case for manslaughter by gross negligence its *more likely the cover up will result in a better chance of convictions* than the act itself.


 

would you opine that perverting the course prosecutions are viable?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 12, 2012)

DotCommunist said:


> would you opine that perverting the course prosecutions are viable?


i think that's what he's saying


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 12, 2012)

all good if so. Courts do tend to get really shirty about people lying to them, high orlow.


----------



## Wilf (Sep 12, 2012)

sleaterkinney said:


> On Newsnight now


 The current Chief Constable apparently had no idea till today that any of his officers changed statements.  Must be a truly stupid, incompetent fuckwit who needs sacking then.  Unless he's lying.


----------



## agricola (Sep 12, 2012)

DotCommunist said:


> would you opine that perverting the course prosecutions are viable?


 
I was thinking more along the lines of misconduct in a public office, which on the reported facts at least would appear to be appropriate in terms of the cover-up.  The deliberate editing of some witness statements given to the various inquests and inquiries might lead to other offences as well though.


----------



## where to (Sep 12, 2012)

Hillsborough and its aftermath was the vilest act of class warfare committed in the 80s.  the aftermath smearing was just another level of their divide and rule tactics.  the tragedy is that they pulled it off, so many all too happy to believe the lies.

Cameron took one for the team today, just as Thatcher did for her boys in 89/90.  he has kept her out of today's new, suddenly accepted narrative, but hopefully not for too long: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-19574492

there is no way this doesn't go all the way to the very top.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 12, 2012)

agricola said:


> I was thinking more along the lines of misconduct in a public office, which on the reported facts at least would appear to be appropriate in terms of the cover-up. The deliberate editing of some witness statements given to the various inquests and inquiries might lead to other offences as well though.


"conspiracy to pervert the course of justice" perhaps


----------



## agricola (Sep 12, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> "conspiracy to pervert the course of justice" perhaps


 
Perhaps, though the question is whether or not a public inquiry is counted as part of the "course of justice" for the offence.  Perhaps someone with more of a legal mind than I knows?


----------



## Hollis (Sep 12, 2012)

Good to see Kirsty Wark putting the boot into that South Yorkshire Chief Constable, its an interesting point about the lack of police whistleblowers.  I wonder just how common knowledge this was in South Yorkshire police, and the culture that prevented a single whistleblower emerging.


----------



## where to (Sep 12, 2012)




----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 12, 2012)

Hollis said:


> Good to see Kirsty Wark putting the boot into that South Yorkshire Chief Constable, its an interesting point about the lack of police whistleblowers. I wonder just how common knowledge this was in South Yorkshire police, and the culture that prevented a single whistleblower emerging.


 


whistle blowing on your own colleagues  is the the sure fire way to ensure you never get promotion and are cardsmarked in the org


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 12, 2012)

DotCommunist said:


> whistle blowing on your own colleagues is the the sure fire way to ensure you never get promotion and are cardsmarked in the org


also i don't suppose many syp like/d scousers then.


----------



## Hollis (Sep 12, 2012)

DotCommunist said:


> whistle blowing on your own colleagues is the the sure fire way to ensure you never get promotion and are cardsmarked in the org


 
Yes - but equally well, you might expect in the Police force, where they were meant to be upholding the law and good practice, that they would have above average practices and safeguards to ensure that cases where this wasn't happened could be identified and reported. 

I mean I'm not naive enough to suppose that this would have happened.  I'm just pointing out another failure of the institution.


----------



## Favelado (Sep 12, 2012)

YEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

http://twitpic.com/atxgf4


----------



## agricola (Sep 12, 2012)

DotCommunist said:


> whistle blowing on your own colleagues is the the sure fire way to ensure you never get promotion and are cardsmarked in the org


 
Just as it *still* is in many other walks of life, both in the public and private sector (of which this case, featured in the latest _Eye_ is the most shameful).


----------



## audiotech (Sep 12, 2012)

Favelado said:


> View attachment 23029
> 
> YEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
> 
> http://twitpic.com/atxgf4


 
The'll be hoping to sell lots.


----------



## Wilf (Sep 12, 2012)

DotCommunist said:


> whistle blowing on your own colleagues is the the sure fire way to ensure you never get promotion and are cardsmarked in the org


 You've got to be quite something though to see the grieving families, see the memorial services over the years and do - _nothing_.  I don't underestimate the difficulties of whistle blowing and it probably got hard to say anything after keeping quiet for years. However when it got to the point where any person half acquainted with the case knew that the South Yorkshire police had lied, there was an opening for someone to speak out.  Psychologically, maybe when they apporached retirement, one of them might have realised they'd have felt better by speaking out. The gratitude they would have got from the families would have been worth it.  It's now a bit like meeting St Peter at the Pearly Gate - a bit fucking late for repentance.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 12, 2012)

DotCommunist said:


> whistle blowing on your own colleagues is the the sure fire way to ensure you never get promotion and are cardsmarked in the org


No it's not. As long as you blow on the _right_ colleagues. Plenty of coppers did alright out of investigating other coppers - Grieve, Yates, Jarratt, Gaspar, Moore, Clark etc.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Sep 12, 2012)

Favelado said:


> View attachment 23029
> 
> YEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
> 
> http://twitpic.com/atxgf4


 
...I'd have been happier if they never got to publish a front page again.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Sep 12, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> ...I'd have been happier if they never got to publish a front page again.


 
I see they managed to sneak in an exclusive about 'royal babies' at the top there and their apology comes third in the bullet points.


----------



## Wilf (Sep 12, 2012)

Rutita1 said:


> I see they managed to sneak in an exclusive about 'royal babies' at the top there and their apology comes third in the bullet points.


 A good day to bury bad news...


----------



## Hollis (Sep 12, 2012)

agricola said:


> Just as it *still* is in many other walks of life, both in the public and private sector (of which this case, featured in the latest _Eye_ is the most shameful).


 
Just as vetting to join the police force is higher than other jobs, so I'd expect given what they do procedures for safeguarding whistleblowers to be higher.  Even in places I've worked we're had procedures in place designed to safeguard whistleblowers.  I wonder what procedures the police have in place now.


----------



## Callie (Sep 12, 2012)

Wilf said:


> A good day to bury bad news...




No. Fuck them, everyone that can should tell of the bare faced lies the media and police have told us. Through their teeth. Through the bones and grief of the dead. I hope they havent lived with it I hope they rot to the core.


----------



## Ted Striker (Sep 12, 2012)

friedaweed said:


> I took them tonight though, not because I wanted them to experience the night as a fan but because I wanted them to learn that if something is wrong you should never give up on putting it right. As we were coming through the tunnel on the way home my 13 year old daughter made me choke when she said.
> 
> "It's a good job they never gave up Dad"
> 
> Job done.


 
This place needs a something-in-my-eye smilie.

Lovely post Frieda


----------



## Treacle Toes (Sep 12, 2012)

Wilf said:


> A good day to bury bad news...


 
They are clearly hoping people will turn to page 7 first to read all about more_ blue bloods. _Everything about that front page tells me that._ _


----------



## Dovydaitis (Sep 12, 2012)

the scum would be better off just not putting a paper out tomorrow. Tat would show more respect and apology than that front page


----------



## nino_savatte (Sep 13, 2012)

Let's not forget that Ingham's fingerprints are on this too.



> "You can't get away from what you were told," Ingham said. "We talked to a lot of people; I am not sure if it was the chief constable. That was the impression I gathered: there were a lot of tanked-up people outside."
> The families of those who died have always believed that this false version of Hillsborough was briefed to Thatcher, and helped form a government stance sympathetic to the police and hostile to the supporters. In his official report, Lord Justice Taylor ruled it was "regrettable" that the police had tried to blame the supporters, and concluded that policeown mismanagement, together with safety failures by Sheffield Wednesday and Sheffield city council, had caused the disaster.
> Asked about Taylor's judgment, Ingham said: "I think the police are a very easy target."
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012/apr/12/tanked-up-mob-hillsborough-police-thatcher


----------



## treelover (Sep 13, 2012)

Like many others have noted right across social media, ''the origins of Hillsborough can found in Orgreave, Wapping, etc..''


----------



## Voley (Sep 13, 2012)

Trevor Hicks interview on Newsnight last night that you can see here. Really worth watching.


> "If I come back to David Cameron's statement, he said quite categorically that the state had let us down. So we will give the state the opportunity to put that right. But if it looks as though they're not going to do that, then we will do as we've done before and we'll take it out of their hands."


On an incredibly bitter/sweet day, hearing this was one of the sweeter moments for me.


----------



## William of Walworth (Sep 13, 2012)

Will catch up on as much of all this as I can (offline) today and over the w/e -- will be away from here for the time being. But major congratulations to everyone in Liverpool and elsewhere (including on here)  who's been keeping this campaign going over all these years. At last, persistance pays off -- and finally, some sort of result!

Oh yes and ....

Fuck the Sun and their fucking lies, scumbags


----------



## William of Walworth (Sep 13, 2012)

audiotech said:


>


----------



## *Miss Daisy* (Sep 13, 2012)

> The report also revealed that 16 cops traumatised by what they saw received £1.5million in compensation.
> *The families of the victims are yet to receive a penny*.
> 
> 
> Read more:http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4535553/Hillsborough-116-statements-by-PCs-altered-to-lose-criticism-of-cops.html#ixzz26KoMQl5n


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 13, 2012)

I didn't know gary o'shea wrote for the sun


----------



## nino_savatte (Sep 13, 2012)

treelover said:


> Like many others have noted right across social media, ''the origins of Hillsborough can found in Orgreave, Wapping, etc..''


Oddly enough, I was thinking about this as I watching the report. Mind you, you could take this back further to the 1911 General Transport Strike, when the police, supported by troops, opened fire on unarmed Liverpool civilians. There was even a warship anchored in the Mersey


----------



## Gingerman (Sep 13, 2012)

The Torygraph has'nt given it any coverage on its front page at all unlike every other newspaper,it does  however feature a large photo of some royal bint on a foreign freebie.


----------



## nino_savatte (Sep 13, 2012)

Gingerman said:


> The Torygraph has'nt given it any coverage on its front page at all unlike every other newspaper,it does however feature a large photo of some royal bint on a foreign freebie.


I'd noticed that. Even their bloggers are eerily silent about it. Just the usual batshit about Europe, immigration and warmongering.


----------



## teqniq (Sep 13, 2012)

Gingerman said:


> The Torygraph has'nt given it any coverage on its front page at all unlike every other newspaper,it does however feature a large photo of some royal bint on a foreign freebie.


That's got to be a really special kind of ostrich logic.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Sep 13, 2012)

The Daily Expiss:

http://twitpic.com/atxfru

5p?


----------



## Favelado (Sep 13, 2012)

Rutita1 said:


> The Daily Expiss:
> 
> http://twitpic.com/atxfru
> 
> 5p?


 

Crime never rises in recessions does it? Or when police numbers are cut?

Nah. Must be the funny-coloured people.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 13, 2012)

friedaweed said:


> Just got in from the Vigil at St Georges Hall.
> Under the cloud of lies and attempts at turning the blame on the fans that so closely followed the disaster no former memorial has ever felt like a real one, for me anyway. For years i've attended the services at Anfield and whist we were always there to pay our respects to our fallen brothers and sisters there has always been a bitter taste in the back of your throat knowing that whilst you stood there a lot of people still believed the lies. People still questioned the families search for Justice. We didn't, we always knew the truth but we knew attempts had been made to write history in the form of bodged inquests, dishonest tabloid headlines, flawed Judicial enquiries, rumours of blame in those that had to live with surviving the event and doubt in the minds of a lot of the nation spun from the stereotyping of a whole city based upon the wrongdoings of a few. I've heard it all over the years. "Scousers were always forcing the gates open at grounds" "What about Heysel?" "Why don't you just let it go?" "There's been an Inquiry is that not enough now?" "It's like a blind man in a dark room looking for a cat that isn't there".
> 
> Tonight was very different. In some ways it felt like the first proper memorial because we all stood side by side in solidarity in the knowledge that the truth was finally out. I stood next to a man who was just as big as me, just as ugly and just as old as me, who like me was there with his kids. Looking into each others waterlogged eyes and smiling we shook hands. There was no need to speak. No need to exchange stories of how our own individual lives had been changed by the 15th of April 1989 you never have to explain that. Generally you know if you're there at such an occasion everyone has their story. People have asked me over the years "Did you know anyone who died at Hillsborough?" I've always given the same answer. Everyone I knew when I was 20 years old knew someone that had died at Hillsborough. I've always dealt with my grief quite privately. For ten years after the event I couldn't even bare going to the match let alone talk about the disaster. My best mate still can't stand/sit on a terrace at a football match and was even too upset today to attend tonight's Vigil.
> ...


 
I was there as well. A very emotional day and night. I was glad to be there with the people I love. 

Your report was spot on, in fact it was brilliant. 

JF96


----------



## shaman75 (Sep 13, 2012)

All this stuff has got me thinking. We're talking institutional practices here. The techniques used by Police and the Authorities post-Hillsborough are still on display today.

Look at how they managed the Ian Tomlinson death. Within hours, unnamed Police sources are claiming their efforts to help were hampered by an angry mob throwing bottles and then The Sun run a story about how he is an alcoholic and witnesses claim he was hanging around looking for trouble. The Police then appoint the most inept Coroner they can find. Does anyone think the Hillsborough aftermath was an isolated example of a cover-up?

Tried and tested methods that have succeeded over and over, thanks to Govt support. The only reason they got rumbled over Tomlinson was because someone filmed the incident itself. Fortunately they gave the footage to The Guardian rather than the Police!


----------



## teqniq (Sep 13, 2012)

I think/hope things will change. Not because there is any will in the establishment for it but rather because of the advent of tech that allows any member of the public to photo or video events as they actually happened. Even so they are still employing every trick in the book to influence the narrative in the eyes of the public. The thing about it is now though is the tricks are much more obvious so although change will be resisted at every turn the mask has slipped for all to see and much more accountability will hopefully be bought about.


----------



## treelover (Sep 13, 2012)

where to said:


>





Given Heysel only a few years earlier, that is truly inspiring..

though one can note many of the crowd are not involved..


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 13, 2012)

treelover said:


> Given Heysel only a few years earlier, that is truly inspiring..
> 
> though one can note many of the crowd are not involved..


perhaps not everyone knew the words.


----------



## Favelado (Sep 13, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> perhaps not everyone knew the words.


 
Yeah. Amazing any of them knew the verse. Also, it took place during a supposed minute's silence, which will have quelled the urge to join in for some.


----------



## treelover (Sep 13, 2012)

fair points..


----------



## Favelado (Sep 13, 2012)

A lovely post from Friedaweed.


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 13, 2012)

calls for the IPCC to investigate from labour

that wellknown and respected internal ffairs arm that has a reputation for getting its man


----------



## Ash Mahay (Sep 13, 2012)

friedaweed said:


> Just got in from the Vigil at St Georges Hall.
> Under the cloud of lies and attempts at turning the blame on the fans that so closely followed the disaster no former memorial has ever felt like a real one, for me anyway.



Its one of the reasons why many of us who were there have never attended one. The notion always felt wrong to me & I was always more comfortable remembering on my own, knowing that way at least my memorial was for the truth.

For all these years we've lived in someone elses lie & Im glad the truth is slowly, finaly coming out but I wont dance for joy like some are because that truth wont bring back the dead or make up for all the years of lies.


----------



## Wilf (Sep 13, 2012)

Ash Mahay said:


> Its one of the reasons why many of us who were there have never attended one. The notion always felt wrong to me & I was always more comfortable remembering on my own, knowing that way at least my memorial was for the truth.
> 
> For all these years we've lived in someone elses lie & Im glad the truth is slowly, finaly coming out but I wont dance for joy like some are because that truth wont bring back the dead or make up for all the years of lies.


 That's fair enough and as someone unconnected to it all I still felt a bit like that yesterday.  It's all a long way from getting justice and the odds of anyone serving time are still way under 50/50.  Same time I saw yesterday as an unambiguous success for the campaigners and families.  To keep going after all the knock backs they've had is brilliant. And if nothing else it makes the police *official* liars.  As somebody said earlier, uncanny resemblances to what is still going  on with Mark Duggan and Ian tomlinson.

To be honest, still keeping the police and other institutions in view, I hope it gets really personal now.  Doorstep the liars, make sure they can't carry on with their comfortable lives/lies.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 13, 2012)

Balbi said:


> Agreed Pickmans, this whole 'but this was ages ago' made me think of the Menezes, and the Tomlinson case. The difference being the media, and people's ability to record and share information, means its much harder to get away with. It doesn't stop them trying though.
> 
> I wonder how many SYP cases those amending officers were involved in are now really, really unsound.


 
This is a point that all too often, senior coppers don't think of when mounting a cover-up.
Who suffers the shit when villains have to be released because one of the coppers who put them away is shown to be as big a liar as Billy Liar? The public, not the careers of senior coppers and pols, so that's alright, then.


----------



## treelover (Sep 13, 2012)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10434714

Apparently Jeremy Hunt also made the claim about Hillsborough being caused by 'hooliganism'


----------



## Fedayn (Sep 13, 2012)

Prosecutions a must



> Richard Wells, who led South Yorkshire Police from 1990 to 1998, said charges were "absolutely essential" after a damning report into the tragedy.


 
Whilsty I won't make the obvious point as to what he was doing as Chief Constable for 8 years it's interesting to see the cracks appearing. Rats deserting a sinking ship doesn't quite cut it. That senior/former senior coppers perhaps now realise that such is the utter contempt for them and their like that something needs done. No doubt he will claim it wasn't on his watch, I wonder who he thinks should be prosecuted....



DotCommunist said:


> calls for the IPCC to investigate from labour
> 
> that wellknown and respected internal ffairs arm that has a reputation for getting its man


 
I think Jack Straw should be investigated to for his 'review'. I see he's been on a fair few media outlets today blaming Thatcher and her pals.... I think his own behaviour is worth looking at frankly the buck passing Pinochet rimming cuntshovel.

A reminder......



> The investigation, by Lord Justice Stuart-Smith, concluded that while some alterations were made to police accounts of the disaster, these were *"at worst an error of judgement,"* Mr Straw said.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 13, 2012)

treelover said:


> posts on local fora still saying ''lots of drunken fans were seen at the White Horse Pub'',
> 
> were there any, does it matter?


 
I really don't believe that it does. I used to go to anywhere between 10 and 20 matches a year, either West Ham or Fulham, in the '70s and '80s, and it was pretty rare for drunk fans to cause trouble outside or inside the ground. Most people who'd had a few knew that if they showed they were pissed, the OB outside the ground would turn them around. Used to be far more trouble from sober hoolies.
The whole "drunken fans" thing is a distraction. Joe Public equates drunkeness with bad behaviour, and that perception was what made the police run with the story. That way it became about people who couldn't control themselves, rather than about coppers who failed to do their job.


----------



## treelover (Sep 13, 2012)

The Press is still at it, now its disabled claimants they are demonising (surely one of the most blameless groups) and people are again dying, (google my tag) some committing suicide,


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 13, 2012)

treelover said:


> Post on local fora, with some very controversial points at the end...


 
Not least because fences were already being advocated by UEFA Europe-wide back in the late '70s purely to stop pitch invasions during and after the game in a lot of grounds (you're probably old enough to remember the footage from the likes of Ajax, Barcelona and Juventus with weekly pitch invasions), and pitch invasions tend to have very little to do with hooliganism _per se_, more to do with over-enthusiastic fans.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 13, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> I understood that it was senior officers that changed the notes. Well, that was the impression I got anyway.


 
Hmm, I thought it was that they "directed" the change of notes by disseminating a "party line" through the local Police Federation system.


----------



## shaman75 (Sep 13, 2012)

Why am I still reading opinions from people (on 38degrees facebook thread) saying it was the fans fault? 



> "Des Senior: I think there were faults on all sides. The crowd for creating the original crush and continuing to push into the enclosures, the club for a poorly designed ground, and the police for failures of crowd control. I don't think pretending only one party was at fault is productive and it's more important to learn lessons than point the finger of blame. The cover-up is another matter."
> 
> "Robert Hugh Wrightson: I think this hysteria is ignoring the fact that had fans been better behaved prior to this disaster there would have been no need to erect the large fences and barriers to keep them off the pitch in the first place which is why they were trapped! So how can that be all the police and ambulance's fault?"
> 
> "Sue Doughty: the police didn't kill anyone. They were all killed by the actions of other fans and that must be hard to live with. Thanks to Mrs Thatcher for insisting against all objectors that stadiums must become all seater regardless of cost after that day"


----------



## treelover (Sep 13, 2012)

btw, Newsnight was excellent last night on the issue, have they had a reality check since the Shanene incident?


----------



## treelover (Sep 13, 2012)

shaman75 said:


> Why am I still reading opinions from people (on 38degrees facebook thread) saying it was the fans fault?


 

Still loads of Wednesdayites saying similar on local radio, etc


----------



## shaman75 (Sep 13, 2012)

herd them up and put them in a pen


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 13, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Thanks for that clarification, it was the impression I got from listening to the news on the radio.
> 
> I know one thing for sure. Kelvin McKenzie's apology was incredibly hollow, decades too late and bearing in mind his previous arrogant pronouncements, I hope his career is finished. It would be a happy thing to see him on JSA


 
I'd be happy to see him broken on a wheel.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 13, 2012)

Tweet from former _Sun_ editor (1998-2003) David Yelland:



> *David Yelland* ‏@*davidyelland*
> We need to view Hillsborough as a modern Peterloo. Why was it okay to treat these people as 2nd class citizens for so long?


https://twitter.com/davidyelland/status/246222437237276672


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 13, 2012)

cantsin said:


> we shouldnt forget the loveable clown Bozza at a time like this :
> 
> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/m...-an-entire-city-shy-and-his-boss-6159847.html


 
I'm hoping people take this up and run with it, but given how many mates he has in the media, persecution of Boris for cuntage probably won't happen.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 13, 2012)

UrbaneFox said:


> They can't all have retired on full pay and be too ill to give evidence / have been diagnosed with Alzheimer's.


 
You're like an innocent abroad, aren't you?


----------



## belboid (Sep 13, 2012)

shaman75 said:


> Why am I still reading opinions from people (on 38degrees facebook thread) saying it was the fans fault?


some pricks will always say something like that.  Whether its because they hate all football fans or just scousers, who knows? There's nowt that can be done about idiots like them.

But there's no need to repeat their garbage and spread it further (even if you are having a pop at them while doing so).


----------



## laptop (Sep 13, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> I'm hoping people take this up and run with it, but given how many mates he has in the media, persecution of Boris for cuntage probably won't happen.


 
*Boris Johnson apologises for Hillsborough article*

Will that close it? Hope not...


----------



## treelover (Sep 13, 2012)

> If 'The Sun' is really sorry about 'the truth' headline 23 years ago - perhaps it should not print any copies of The Sun for the next 96 days - a day for each person who died - this would reflect a real apology which the families and people of Liverpool deserve.


 
From CIF..


----------



## Libertad (Sep 13, 2012)

treelover said:


> From CIF..


 
Or print for the next 96 days and donate the money to the families.


----------



## The Octagon (Sep 13, 2012)

treelover said:


> Still loads of Wednesdayites saying similar on local radio, etc


 
I really don't understand this at all, it's like a bizarre kneejerk defense of...what exactly? A ground, a local police force, a football club that fucked up royally 23 years ago? It's utterly embarrassing to share a team with some of these twats.


----------



## treelover (Sep 13, 2012)

What about the Sheffield News agency, Whites, probably gone now, but what about its personnel?


----------



## Wilf (Sep 13, 2012)

treelover said:


> What about the Sheffield News agency, Whites, probably gone now, but what about its personnel?


... or not:
http://www.sheffield.org.uk/info/16137/

In fact they are getting their wriggles in already:
http://www.itv.com/news/update/2012-09-12/sheffield-news-agency-shocked-by-sun-hillsborough-story/


----------



## laptop (Sep 13, 2012)

treelover said:


> What about the Sheffield News agency, Whites, probably gone now, but what about its personnel?


 
Exists, and is blaming the sources & the _Sun_:



> “In common with many other journalists, reporters from this agency spoke to the then Sheffield Hallam MP Irvine Patnick. A senior reporter, who has since died, and with long standing police connections, also spoke to senior officers.
> 
> “As result, as a responsible and reputable agency, we did report the allegations to all the national newspapers and media outlets.
> 
> ...


 
Is also attracting unfavourable reviews on business listings websites.


----------



## treelover (Sep 13, 2012)

Surprised it still exists,

btw, Patnick's brother had a shop near that address...


----------



## laptop (Sep 13, 2012)

laptop said:


> Exists, and is blaming the sources & the _Sun_:


 
And, from the above, Kelvin is blaming them as well as the MP and ossifers:



> Said Kelvin: “Twenty three ago I was handed a piece of copy from a reputable news agency in Sheffield in which a senior police officer and a senior local MP were making serious allegations against fans in the stadium.
> 
> “I had absolutely no reason to believe that these authority figures would lie and deceive over such a disaster...


----------



## Wilf (Sep 13, 2012)

laptop said:


> And, from the above, Kelvin is blaming them as well as the MP and ossifers:


 The rats in a sack community would like to distance themselves from these scum.


----------



## JimW (Sep 13, 2012)

This thing about Bettison 'considering his position' - he's known what he did all along and kept it quiet and prospered so fuck waiting, sack him and sue him.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 13, 2012)

JimW said:


> This thing about Bettison 'considering his position' - he's known what he did all along and kept it quiet and prospered so fuck waiting, sack him and sue him.


 
Then strip him of all assets he's gained since 1989.


----------



## nino_savatte (Sep 13, 2012)

treelover said:


> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10434714
> 
> Apparently Jeremy Hunt also made the claim about Hillsborough being caused by 'hooliganism'


 
[writes] Adds another offence to Jezza's form sheet.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 13, 2012)

Amazing.

Neil Wallis - at News International from 1986-1998 and 2003-2007, including stints as _Sun_ Deputy Editor and _NOTW_ gaffer - says Cameron should initiate a "Leveson Inquiry, with all the same powers His Lordship has used against the press for the last year, to expose publically HOW [Hillsborough] was able to happen."

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/neil-wallis/hillsborough-david-cameron-leveson_b_1879876.html

(In case you had forgotten, Wallis was arrested in Operation Weeting.)


----------



## dennisr (Sep 13, 2012)

*Hillsborough and Battle of Orgreave: one police force, two disgraces*
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012/apr/12/hillsborough-battle-orgreave


----------



## treelover (Sep 13, 2012)

dennisr said:


> *Hillsborough and Battle of Orgreave: one police force, two disgraces*
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012/apr/12/hillsborough-battle-orgreave


 
I was waiting for an article like this...


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 13, 2012)

This would have been a good day to have had detective boy here.


----------



## dennisr (Sep 13, 2012)

treelover said:


> I was waiting for an article like this...


 

Indeed - Only ever heard the hardest truth in the left press previously. I think this article deserves a plug as well (but the guardian one says it better):

*Hillsborough - eventually, the truth*
http://www.socialistparty.org.uk/articles/15235/13-09-2012/hillsborough-eventually-the-truth

_The brutal anti-working class culture of the South Yorkshire police force which played a leading and pernicious role in crushing the miners in their struggle to defend their jobs and communities was laid bare by this report._

_Michael Mansfield QC, who assisted the families, clearly identified the link. The police authorities revelled in an atmosphere of impunity which flowed from the anti-working class outlook of the then Thatcher government._

_Liverpool was also the city where the Militant-led socialist council in the mid-1980s had resisted the attacks of the Thatcher government by mobilising the support thousands of working class people. By falsely accusing Liverpool football fans as being drunken hooligans, the ruling classes also intended to denigrate the city's tradition of militant struggle._


----------



## audiotech (Sep 13, 2012)

shaman75 said:


> Why am I still reading opinions from people (on 38degrees facebook thread) saying it was the fans fault?


 


> The past lies like a nightmare upon the present.


Marx.


----------



## Wilf (Sep 13, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> This would have been a good day to have had detective boy here.


 The Englans selectors are probably in a similar quandry over Kevin Pieterson.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 13, 2012)

Royal and Sun Alliance refused to release all relevant documentary material to the Panel.



> In accessing for disclosure the significant amount of information not previously in the public domain, contributing organisations were asked to waive any entitlement to confidentiality and legal professional privilege. All public sector organisations approached by the Panel allowed unrestricted access to their documents and other material. The Panel is able to commend their response. In contrast, one private sector organisation, the Royal Sun Alliance Insurance Company (which was the insurer for Sheffield Wednesday Football Club in 1989) refused to waive its entitlement to privilege, thus denying the Panel access to its material. Strenuous efforts were made to persuade the company to allow the Panel confidential access to the relevant material, but it maintained its refusal. This is a matter of considerable regret to the Panel.


 
But see also:



> The Liverpool Law Society was the only other organisation that considered itself unable to provide unrestricted access to all the material it held for the Hillsborough Solicitors' Group Steering Committee. Legal advice provided to the Law Society and to the Panel confirmed that the legal professional privilege which was said to attach to some of the material was not theirs to waive, and despite considerable efforts the Panel was unable to assist them to find a way round the obstacle. The Law Society did however provide access to and arrange for the disclosure of other material held by them to which such privilege did not apply.


 
Which is going to have a direct relevance to the future fight for justice - for why see here:



> 1. Hillsborough Steering Committee Of Solicitors
> 
> The swiftness with which the steering group of solicitors was set up is potentially indicative of one of two things. Either there was a genuine desire on the part of the legal system to assist the bereaved and survivors or it was felt that there was the need to organise at a legal level and control potential litigation. Given the long term consequences of the legal representation then it is obvious that the latter was the case.
> 
> The Steering Committee was conceived on the Sunday morning following the Disaster when a Home Office Representative came to Liverpool and met with members of the Law Society. What subsequently followed amounts to the most perverse example of 'ambulance chasing'. In some cases bereaved families were visited almost immediately after the Disaster by a leading city solicitor who offered them his condolences and signed them up. The insidious nature of this behaviour cannot be underestimated. For many families, it was only when they received a letter several weeks from the solicitor did they then recall the initial visit and what had happened. As one Mother said: "Someone just put something in front of me and said 'sign'. I didn't know what I was doing and I didn't care. All I wanted was my son back". Of course those involved in the setting up of the Steering Committee would argue that by centralising everything they were trying to minimise distress. A lot of families would disagree.


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 13, 2012)

shaman75 said:


> Why am I still reading opinions from people (on 38degrees facebook thread) saying it was the fans fault?


 
Of course this is the success of the smear campaign and it'll never go away but it doesnt matter anymore, they can say what they like - we know what happened and its indisputable.  They can argue that black is white and the sun goes around moon as well if they like, it won't make any difference,


----------



## Lock&Light (Sep 13, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> This would have been a good day to have had detective boy here.


 
That's why it is not a good idea to drive those who think differently from these boards.


----------



## belboid (Sep 13, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Royal and Sun Alliance refused to release all relevant documentary material to the Panel.


in 1989, the RSA was still two companies, with one half, Royal Insuarance, actually covering Hillsborough.  And where were the Royal very proudly based?  In the Liver Building, of course.


----------



## Voley (Sep 13, 2012)

SYP consider IPCC Referral

Is that all? Ffs.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 13, 2012)

Lock&Light said:


> That's why it is not a good idea to drive those who think differently from these boards.



I think you misunderstood my point. It would be a good day to watch him squirm under inachievable apologism.

For the record though, he wasn't driven from the boards. His repeated poor behaviour earned him a permaban. If he was driven away, he'd have been back.


----------



## Zabo (Sep 13, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> I think Jack Straw should be investigated to for his 'review'. I see he's been on a fair few media outlets today blaming Thatcher and her pals.... I think his own behaviour is worth looking at frankly the buck passing Pinochet rimming cuntshovel


 
Oh yes indeed including his denials on Extraordinary Rendition - kidnapping and torture to give it its proper name. And let's no forget the thousands of new laws brought in by him and his mate Tony. Cunts all.

_"The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws." _Tacitus_. _


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 13, 2012)

Event this saturday.


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 13, 2012)

NVP said:


> SYP consider IPCC Referral
> 
> Is that all? Ffs.


 
Horse, bolted, door, lock.

ETA: They are at it again, trying to regain the intiative - note they are only considering it, its still up to them.  Fuck em, its in the domain now.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Sep 13, 2012)

Every apology coming out tries to pass the buck.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 13, 2012)

Lock&Light said:


> That's why it is not a good idea to drive those who think differently from these boards.


detective-boy should have thought twice before threatening legal action against all and sundry.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 13, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> detective-boy should have thought twice before threatening legal action against all and sundry.



Did he do that?  i just remember cunt collective and cunts and have I mentioned you're all cunts yet you cunt?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 13, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> Did he do that?  i just remember cunt collective and cunts and have I mentioned you're all cunts yet you cunt?


yes he did


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 13, 2012)

He's in good company then. Quite a few have done that over the years.


----------



## Lock&Light (Sep 13, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> ............For the record though, he wasn't driven from the boards. His repeated poor behaviour earned him a permaban. If he was driven away, he'd have been back.


 
His "poor behaviour" was totally provoked in order to drive him away.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 13, 2012)

Lock&Light said:


> His "poor behaviour" was totally provoked in order to drive him away.


and what about your poor behaviour? seems to me it's innate.


----------



## killer b (Sep 13, 2012)

probably not the thread for it


----------



## Lock&Light (Sep 13, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> and what about your poor behaviour? seems to me it's innate.


 
The same trick has been tried on me, it's true, especially by you, but I managed better than Detective Boy to keep my cool.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 13, 2012)

Lock&Light said:


> The same trick has been tried on me, it's true, especially by you, but I managed better than Detective Boy to keep my cool.


but have you anything to say about the topick at hand?

if not, you know you can always foxtrot oscar.


----------



## Lock&Light (Sep 13, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> but have you anything to say about the topick at hand?
> 
> if not, you know you can always foxtrot oscar.


 
Piss off, Pick.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 13, 2012)

Lock&Light said:


> Piss off, Pick.


we'll have to continue this thread without your contributions then. word to the wise: if you want to show respect for the dead, you'll stop posting shit like this ^^.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Sep 13, 2012)

The Octagon said:


> I really don't understand this at all, it's like a bizarre kneejerk defense of...what exactly? A ground, a local police force, a football club that fucked up royally 23 years ago? It's utterly embarrassing to share a team with some of these twats.


 
My worry is that it will create animosity between the two fanbases/cities. Though I'm pleased (and proud, I worked in Liverpool for most of my working life and love the city and its people) to say I've not heard a bad word about us from Liverpool fans over this. Just hope none of the families see some of the prejudiced, insulting crap that's floating around on twitter etc. My hope is that it's just a knee jerk reaction and when people have read the reports they'll reconsider. I'm definitely not looking forward to the match on Wednesday though for fear of the arguments I'll get into.

Just started reading some of the source documents and watching the videos from the report. The links below come with a warning - they are very upsetting and those closer than me to the disaster might want to give them a miss.

This was the first one I came across and I don't mind admitting it had me in tears - particularly as when I first started going to matches the pens were still there and experienced some pretty scary overcrowding and pushing at times - there but for the grace of God and all that 

This video's pretty difficult viewing too - it's of the crowd buildup and the events that led to the opening of the gates. Really brings home the fact that they were just like me - fans wanting to watch their team. As I watched it it dawned on me that some of the people I'm watching never got to go home, let alone go to another match 

RIP


----------



## weepiper (Sep 13, 2012)

killer b said:


> probably not the thread for it


 
what he said.


----------



## Favelado (Sep 13, 2012)

People mustn't underestimate the impact of the BBC's misreporting of the tragedy on the nation's attitude towards Hillsborough.
The initial reports on the day of the disaster said repeatedly that ticketless Liverpool fans got into the ground through a broken turnstile. A couple of minutes in to this video you can see this....



The Sun is one thing. The nation's most respected institution (tie with the NHS?) reporting this as fact would have been harder for most people to dismiss.

I love the BBC. Love it. It got it terribly wrong here though. I'm sure we can guess what their source was but you always think that their reporting on something like this has a basis in fact.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 13, 2012)

killer b said:


> probably not the thread for it


is that to me? i quite agree, as i thought i'd made clear in posts 363 and 365.


----------



## weepiper (Sep 13, 2012)

Favelado said:


> People mustn't underestimate the impact of the BBC's misreporting of the tragedy on the nation's attitude towards Hillsborough.
> The initial reports on the day of the disaster said repeatedly that ticketless Liverpool fans got into the ground through a broken turnstile. A couple of minutes in to this video you can see this....
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 13, 2012)

Lock&Light said:


> His "poor behaviour" was totally provoked in order to drive him away.



It was provoked in a way that could only happen with a former high level police officer turning up to a left leaning discussion board for bouts of apologism could ever achieve. Strange you think it was the community who somehow provoked him into posting here?

E2a: converstion over. Let's discuss corrupt police on another thread that isn't about corrupt police...


----------



## xes (Sep 13, 2012)

Favelado said:


> I love the BBC. Love it. It got it terribly wrong here though. I'm sure we can guess what their source was but you always think that their reporting on something like this has a basis in fact.


 BBC or the Sun, is does't matter, they're all propaganda. All mainstream media is. They will do anything to make scum police look like heros, and goverments can do no wrong. Unless they actually HAVE to print bad things about goverments, they won't. And they only do it to save face, otherwise their slant would become too obvious to the people who lap up everything they say.


----------



## Voley (Sep 13, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> This video's pretty difficult viewing too


Jesus, that's painful to watch.


----------



## treelover (Sep 13, 2012)

Media doorstepping lots of the big players, inc patnick, the Coroner at the time, etc..


----------



## weepiper (Sep 13, 2012)

SYP is referring itself to the IPCC

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-19592455


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 13, 2012)

Favelado said:


> People mustn't underestimate the impact of the BBC's misreporting of the tragedy on the nation's attitude towards Hillsborough.
> The initial reports on the day of the disaster said repeatedly that ticketless Liverpool fans got into the ground through a broken turnstile. A couple of minutes in to this video you can see this....
> 
> 
> ...



just one word: orgreave


----------



## Hollis (Sep 13, 2012)

shaman75 said:


> Why am I still reading opinions from people (on 38degrees facebook thread) saying it was the fans fault?


 
You only have to read abit of background provided in the opening of the report to see that there were massive problems at that ground and that end in 1981, and again in 1987 and 1988.  It wasn't so much the crowds fault as the fault of Sheffield Wednesday and bad crowd policing on the day.  You could say an accident waiting to happen.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 13, 2012)

shaman75 said:


> Why am I still reading opinions from people (on 38degrees facebook thread) saying it was the fans fault?


that's fuckedbook for you


----------



## twistedAM (Sep 13, 2012)

Good timing on the goverment's part not to release the report during the 'lympics season.


----------



## The Boy (Sep 13, 2012)

This is one of those moments where i start off by thinking that the world has taken a step in the right direction, and those that can't see the police for what they are might have the scales fall from their eyes. Unfortunately, I get the feeling that in reality it is just one more step in the fight for justice by the friends and families of the deceased. And I'm still not convinced they'll get it.


----------



## Red Cat (Sep 13, 2012)

xes said:


> BBC or the Sun, is does't matter, they're all propaganda. All mainstream media is. They will do anything to make scum police look like heros


 
There was a documentary made at the time by the First Tuesday team at Yorkshire TV, so I guess it was shown on ITV. I remember very clearly that it blamed the police because not only do I have a very vivid memory of the film but it was made by the brother-in-law of my boyfriend at the time.

I just found it on youtube - Hillsborough Disaster rare documentary 3 + 4


----------



## temper_tantrum (Sep 13, 2012)

http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/repository/docs/COO000000930001.pdf

(scroll down)


----------



## shagnasty (Sep 14, 2012)

xes said:


> BBC or the Sun, is does't matter, they're all propaganda. All mainstream media is. They will do anything to make scum police look like heros, and goverments can do no wrong. Unless they actually HAVE to print bad things about goverments, they won't. And they only do it to save face, otherwise their slant would become too obvious to the people who lap up everything they say.


I agree the only paper that comes out punching is the morning star even though it's view can be over optimistic.iread the graun and the indie and they both pussyfoot on serious issues,and as for saving face they all tarred with the same brush


----------



## The Boy (Sep 14, 2012)

temper_tantrum said:


> http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/repository/docs/COO000000930001.pdf
> 
> (scroll down)


 
Got to about page three, and have decided would be best to read when not drunk.  Thank you for the link.


----------



## weepiper (Sep 14, 2012)

temper_tantrum said:


> http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/repository/docs/COO000000930001.pdf
> 
> (scroll down)


 
brutal


----------



## cesare (Sep 14, 2012)

temper_tantrum said:


> http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/repository/docs/COO000000930001.pdf
> 
> (scroll down)


----------



## killer b (Sep 14, 2012)

had to stop reading that tbh


----------



## temper_tantrum (Sep 14, 2012)

I had an argument with someone I thought was ok yesterday, still recycling the 'fans caused it' argument. Clearly had never been in a dangerous crowd control situation. 'If I was in that position I wouldn't have been pushing forward' etc. it made me want to cry with frustration, the ignorance even after the vindication had been published.


----------



## The Boy (Sep 14, 2012)

killer b said:


> had to stop reading that tbh


 
Yup. 

And to add to weepiper's comment, the real brutality was the response from the Home Office.  I know such things have to be handled with a sense of... I can't find the word, but the exchange reinforced, for me, the difference between those that live their lives and those that try and control those lives.  A horrible read.


----------



## temper_tantrum (Sep 14, 2012)

Yup. The response is vile.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 14, 2012)

And now we get patnick's _apology_:


----------



## belboid (Sep 14, 2012)

Patnick's must be the most pathetic apology yet, not even half-hearted, and with the vile 'but it was all so long ago' addendum.  He can't, unsurprisingly, bring himself to say that he was also told - by coppers - that the tales of bad behaviour were bollocks.  Utter scumbag.


----------



## killer b (Sep 14, 2012)

_i totally accept responsibility, except that bit where i don't_


----------



## Fedayn (Sep 14, 2012)

temper_tantrum said:


> I had an argument with someone I thought was ok yesterday, still recycling the 'fans caused it' argument. Clearly had never been in a dangerous crowd control situation. 'If I was in that position I wouldn't have been pushing forward' etc. it made me want to cry with frustration, the ignorance even after the vindication had been published.


 
A perfect example how the smear machine employed by SYP has worked and seeped into every part of society. Even those with views we think line up with our own have absorbed the shite spewed by Patnick and Co. Thus showing perfectly not just how well it worked but of course why they used and told the lies they did.... And so well was the myth propounded that even after the exposure of 2 decades of lies and smears there are still people who have the 'ah but' response....


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 14, 2012)

Next up is allegations of phone tapping, PC hacking and other stuff. I wrote on here of the way 'certain people' from 'certain institutions' and bodies interfered in the professional and academic career of Sheila Coleman before, and those of us who been involved with her know there's been a whole lot more just waiting to come out. Looks like now may be the time judging by a few things going around.


----------



## Favelado (Sep 14, 2012)

The 1981 Hillsborough crush which very nearly lead a disaster happening sooner than it dead. The only difference being that the pen doors got opened earlier that day.

People are clearly asphyxiated and in real trouble toward the end of the clip.

http://www.ohwhenthespurs.co.uk/#/hillsborough-1981/4535126148


----------



## big eejit (Sep 14, 2012)

Very poignant letter in today's Guardian:

On 15 April 1989, at 8.30 in the morning, Barrie left his home to travel to a football match. In the early hours of the following morning, a different man returned home. Barrie's friends, who had been seated elsewhere in the ground, had found him wandering the streets of Sheffield after an increasingly despairing search that lasted long into the night. Traumatised, his body covered in purple bruises that bled into each other, his arms torn from dragging adults and children from the terrible crush and passing them up to others hanging, arms stretched, to lift them to safety, Barrie came home but left part of his soul in the Hillsborough stadium.

In the 23 years that followed, time after time castigated as a cause of the tragedy; carrying the guilt of survival; knowing, as did everyone in Liverpool, "the truth" but condemned as self-pitying and told to "get over it" when any attempt to disseminate the truth was made; and taking every opportunity to show his solidarity with the families of the 96 in their search for justice.
Finally, vindication (Hillsborough: the reckoning, 13 September) but too late for many relatives and friends of those who were lost and survivors themselves. Too late also for Barrie, who died at 8.10 on Wednesday morning.
*Pat Ayers*
_Liverpoo_l

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012/sep/13/hillsborough-time-for-justice


----------



## where to (Sep 14, 2012)

Gary Gillespie on 5 live just now: you can forgive a mistake, you can't forgive the cover ups. that can never be forgiven.

fair play also to Scott Mills who played You'll Never Walk Alone on Radio 1 on the afternoon of the release of the report.

it will be interesting to see how Sunderland fans respond tomorrow, when Liverpool play them at the Stadium of Light.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 14, 2012)

Here are some sections from Phil Scratons's Book No Last Rights: The Denial of Justice and the Promotion of Myth in the Aftermath of the Hillsborough Disaster from the chapter covering how the newspapers and wider media (across the board, not just the SUN) helped eastblish the false state/SYP/SYAS/others false narrative. (The book is available as docs here). Remember when you see this respectable papers uncritically quoting coppers and so on that it's supposed to be their job (in their own self-mythology at least) to question authority, not parrot it. This is one tiny set of examples only concerned with one tiny section of the Inquest. There are hundreds more examples in the full chapter.



> The version of events constructed by the South Yorkshire Police evidence to the Inquiry was one of drunken, selfish behaviour by the Liverpool supporters contributing directly to the Disaster. This reached a climax with the reporting of allegations of a 'conspiracy' among fans to gain access to the ground. *The Daily Telegraph* reported this with the headline "HILLSBOROUGH CRUSH CAUSED DELIBERATELY CLAIMS PC" and went on to state:
> 
> Fans without tickets deliberately caused the crush outside Hillsborough which led to a gate being opened where 95 people died, the inquiry was told yesterday. The surge was intended to force police to open gates to let people into the stadium, said PC Graham Duffy. [44]
> 
> ...







> This extensive verbatim account, with its bold headline emphasis, simply reiterated excessive police claims, yet they were presented as neutral, objective and factual. The evidence of another police sergeant was given dramatic coverage in several reports, with the Guardian's headline: "LIVERPOOL 'ANIMALS TRAMPLED YOUTHS'", and the Daily Telegraph: "LIVERPOOL FANS 'LIKE ANIMALS' SAYS SERGEANT" [49]. The Daily Post echoed this with: "LIVERPOOL FANS 'LIKE ANIMALS'" [50]. The same reports also had sub‑headings, with the Guardian stating, "OFFICER ACCUSES FANS OF PLANNED DRUNKEN INVASION", while the Daily Post's, "INVASION PLANNED, INQUIRY IS TOLD", did not even acknowledge the statement as a police claim [51].


 


> Overall, many news reports presented evidence uncritically and, ultimately, in a misleading form. *The Guardian's* coverage of the conclusion to the Inquiry, for example, summarised the "main points" of the oral evidence [62]. The half page feature carried a special report headlined "FANS 'SET TO FORCE ENTRY'", again giving credence to the allegations over reckless fans.


----------



## denniseagle (Sep 14, 2012)

Just wondering.............. it has been a campaign that has lasted for 23 years ......................was there no one who 'thought they knew the truth'   who even stopped for one second and thought  hang on let me look at it again, let me just think, why are there so many who campaign ,AND ,why do they continue YEAR UPON YEAR UPON YEAR? Was there not one 'journalist' and I use the term extremely loosely where certain rags are concerned, who thought  lets just verify what we have been told via an independent source?  
Investigative journalism seems to have completely ignored the possibility that those who fought for JUSTICE and the TRUTH really had justification behind their campaign.
Was it the fact that everyone who KNEW about what really happened  just didn't care?


----------



## Iguana (Sep 15, 2012)

There were plenty of journalists who were making it clear that a cover-up had happened. Almost every article I ever read on the subject, along with any documentary/docu-drama made it obvious what had really happened. Obviously they didn't know the indepth stuff like exactly how many people could have been saved after 3.15pm or about the fact that the tested dead children for blood alcohol levels but the fact that the police ballsed up and disgracefully tried to cover their tracks and blame the victims and survivors was never in doubt. I was in complete shock this week to discover that anyone at all genuinely believed otherwise.


----------



## laptop (Sep 15, 2012)

So now we have a recipe book for a cover-up.


Get an MP to repeat the lie of your choice.
Get the Press Association wire to report (accurately) the news that "MP X says Y happened".
Hacks rewrite the wire story, with the qualification near the bottom.
The headline is "Y happened!" - an MP said it, it's on the wire, how much checking can it need?
The following day, one or more of the wordier papers runs a complicated little story asking "did Y really happen?"
If you the liar are unlucky, they follow it up with lots of complicated stories - and years later there's an inquiry. The story has meantime changed from the lie to the inquiry.
But most people - those that support the lie and those like denniseagle who denounce it - never read or remember more than the original headline.


----------



## denniseagle (Sep 15, 2012)

What I am really asking is, those journalists who knew what really happened, and those who suspected that the official story was incorrect  did not seem to show much fervour in finding out more.....WHY?
Not one tabloid or broadsheet stood apart when the lies started they ALL toed the line
WHY??


----------



## 8115 (Sep 15, 2012)

I think that one of the big good things that came out of Hillsborough was a good understanding of the dangers of crowds etc.  People are rarely crushed to death at large events, security tends to be quite good and I think that's very lucky.

I think to understand the reporting of Hillsborough you probably have to put it in the context of police and maybe society generally relating to football.  Even today there seems to be a police frustration with having to police big matches, is it Leeds where they have been asking the clubs to pay the cost of policing?  Whether that was a particular problem in Liverpool is another question.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 15, 2012)

denniseagle said:


> What I am really asking is, those journalists who knew what really happened, and those who suspected that the official story was incorrect did not seem to show much fervour in finding out more.....WHY?
> Not one tabloid or broadsheet stood apart when the lies started they ALL toed the line
> WHY??


 
Because although there are some maverick journos, a lot of them write to a POV, usually the editor's idea of "the average readers' " POV, but sometimes that of the owner. They call it "the house style", but it's usually just "toeing the line" put out by those in power.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 15, 2012)

Independent has a story of a whistle-blower who was ignored and effectively silenced tomorrow.


----------



## laptop (Sep 15, 2012)

denniseagle said:


> Not one tabloid or broadsheet stood apart when the lies started they ALL toed the line


 
I've described how they were led to do that on the day. THEN some start questioning.

Do these links from searching the Guardian for *hillsborough disaster* work? (Seems the archive only goes back to 1998?)


2012 (137)
2011 (104)
2010 (45)
2009 (107)
2008 (29)
2007 (35)
2006 (30)
2005 (42)
2004 (56)
2003 (34)
2002 (28)
2001 (31)
2000 (47)
1999 (48)
1998 (1)


----------



## ericjarvis (Sep 15, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Because although there are some maverick journos, a lot of them write to a POV, usually the editor's idea of "the average readers' " POV, but sometimes that of the owner. They call it "the house style", but it's usually just "toeing the line" put out by those in power.


 
It goes further than that. Editors will almost inevitably ditch anything that stands out as different from the normal "news agenda". For example a BBC journo friend reported on an anti poll tax demo at the London borough town hall 100 metres from his home. His report mentioned the high spirited singing crowd and the complete absence of any violence. His editor had it revoiced by a journalist who came from deepest Hertfordshire, and what was broadcast was a report of a violent demonstration with clashes with the police. Using the same pictures.

At the time, any report on mistakes or cover ups by SYP would have been spiked, because the news agenda only featured drunken violent football fans. News in the UK ceased to be anything to do with reality three decades ago.


----------



## Libertad (Sep 15, 2012)

I haven't seen this reported anywhere else: 



> Senior lawyers at the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) were handed detailed analysis of the police cover-up of the Hillsborough disaster 14 years ago but decided to take no action against any officers involved, the senior lawyer who led a private prosecution on behalf of the families says today.


 
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-years-ago-8140104.html?origin=internalSearch


----------



## denniseagle (Sep 15, 2012)

I know most journalists write what the editor/owner will publish but the complete lack of questioning concerning the tragedy in the first few weeks obviously laid the foundations for the decades of lies to be accepted as  fact.
Where were/are the true seekers of the truth in journalism?


----------



## laptop (Sep 16, 2012)

denniseagle said:


> the complete lack of questioning concerning the tragedy in the first few weeks


 
Complete?

Just spent 10 minutes looking for early examples, on the lines of the Glasgow Herald... not so easy that far back, need a Lexis subscription.

Then - 'ang on! There was extensive and immediate coverage of the _Sun_ boycott, which involved rebuttal of the _Sun_'s lies. Gleeful rebuttal, from the other papers.


----------



## treelover (Sep 16, 2012)

we are seeing all these sort of things with the coverage or lack of it of welfare reform, another area which is leading to tragedy and death...


----------



## treelover (Sep 16, 2012)

Powerful cartoon in the Observer...

though whether it will happen.....


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 16, 2012)

There's a couple of very important points to bear in mind when looking at the role that individual journalists played or failed to play in the immediate aftermath, then the inquests then the long years afterwards.

Firstly, a lot of the reporting was by _news reporters_ who were a) not part of football culture and didn't understand the way fans were treated, the way we were herded like cattle etc and b) used to talking to the police and using them as their primary source - questioning and criticising them is the fast path to getting yourself cut off from those sources.

Secondly, the football reporters _at that time _were on the whole, private school and university educated outsiders to football culture as well - they wrote about the supporters with barely concealed contempt ( a contempt that i imagine took was directed at the whole class those supporters mainly came from) and thought the conditions that the fans had to put up with was _tough shit, their own fault - _this was always particularly evident in the reporting on england away games_. _Since then there is a whole new generation of football writers who grew up with and came out of that football culture that the previous generation of football writers despised - they understand what happened and why (i'm talking about people like Tony Evans here).

Why would people like this dig any deeper? Why would people like this take the victims and their families questions and experiences seriously?


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 16, 2012)

Bettison. Miles more left to go on this and others.

Did Sir Norman Bettison try to smear Hillsborough inquest judge?



> Sir Norman Bettison triggered an attempt by South Yorkshire Police to prosecute the High Court judge who led the original Hillsborough inquiry in 1989 over claims that he had blamed the force for the disaster even before he began his investigation.
> 
> In what was last night condemned as another "black propaganda" operation, *senior officers considered charging Lord Justice Taylor with perverting the course of justice* after a police driver claimed he had overheard the judge state that the South Yorkshire force would have to carry the can for the catastrophe, which claimed the lives of 96 Liverpool fans in April 1989.


 


> The DPP at the time advised there was no case to answer. Despite this and dismissals by both Lord Justice Taylor and Mr Dear when the allegations were put to them by a senior official of the Home Office, the file was deemed so sensitive that it was kept in a safe for several years with a note *warning that a leak of the details "could prove highly embarrassing for all parties".*


----------



## Voley (Sep 16, 2012)

> "The idea that the police would question the integrity of a High Court judge, let alone press charges against him, beggars belief," said Louise Ellman, now MP for Liverpool Riverside. "We have already seen evidence of this type of black propaganda. It shows the depths some people were willing to go to in order to shift the blame from themselves."


 
Allegations slowly getting nearer the top. I expect more of this over the coming weeks.


----------



## Ash Mahay (Sep 16, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> There's a couple of very important points to bear in mind when looking at the role that individual journalists played or failed to play in the immediate aftermath, then the inquest then the long years afterwards.
> 
> *Firstly, a lot of the reporting was by news reporters who were a) not part of football culture and didn't understand the way fans were treated, the way we were herded like cattle etc* and b) used to talking to the police and using them as their primary source - questioning and criticising them is the fast path to getting yourself cut off from those sources.
> 
> ...



Evidence please?


----------



## Voley (Sep 16, 2012)

Families seek new inquest verdicts

No surprises here particularly as Trevor Hicks is being necessarily cagey about what action they may be taking but there'll be pressure for new inquests and criminal prosecutions.

I'm still only cautiously optimistic, I must admit, but I'd like to think that there's a real momentum building here.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 16, 2012)

Here is the copy that Whites sent out. (pdf)


----------



## laptop (Sep 16, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Here is the copy that Whites sent out. (pdf)


 
That's odd: it appears to be a fax of a printout of a dodgy OCR scan of a paper original.



> mare,,.


----------



## Fedayn (Sep 16, 2012)

Yesterday in the Celtic end v St Johnstone


----------



## Maltin (Sep 17, 2012)

Interesting editorial from When Saturday Comes from their June 1989 issue that has been republished on their website.

http://www.wsc.co.uk/wsc-daily/1152-september-2012/8991-post-hillsborough-disaster-editorial


----------



## Voley (Sep 17, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> Yesterday in the Celtic end v St Johnstone


 
Nice to see Reading and Spurs fans stand and applaud through You'll Never Walk Alone at the beginning of their match, too.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 17, 2012)

NVP said:


> Nice to see Reading and Spurs fans stand and applaud through You'll Never Walk Alone at the beginning of their match, too.



Didn't Man City and Stoke sing YNWA as well?


----------



## cantsin (Sep 17, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> Yesterday in the Celtic end v St Johnstone


 
nicely done - if I'd sprayed that banner, I'd have just managed to squeeze the '96'  in all squashed up at the end / it'd look like a six yr old had done it.


----------



## Mungy (Sep 17, 2012)

cantsin said:


> nicely done - if I'd sprayed that banner, I'd have just managed to squeeze the '96' in all squashed up at the end / it'd look like a six yr old had done it.


the trick is to start with a longer piece of paper than you need


----------



## laptop (Sep 17, 2012)

Maltin said:


> Interesting editorial from When Saturday Comes from their June 1989 issue that has been republished on their website.
> 
> http://www.wsc.co.uk/wsc-daily/1152-september-2012/8991-post-hillsborough-disaster-editorial


 
Cool piece, full of well-informed cynicism. Who was working on _WSC_ then?



> The key ritual of this organised disinformation is an inquiry. “Experts” are called forth (in this instance, few people other than football fans have any relevant expertise to offer). After accusations are made and refuted, a report is produced and the cheapest and most politically expedient bits form part of a new law. The rest is made voluntary. Identification of the real culprits is lost amid desperate, scurrying attempts to avoid blame.


----------



## cantsin (Sep 17, 2012)

Mungy said:


> the trick is to start with a longer piece of paper than you need


 
will remember that - having a good /  kinda graff-y handwrting style like that bod had would help as well


----------



## treelover (Sep 17, 2012)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Didn't Man City and Stoke sing YNWA as well?


 
I think many fans are realising, if they hadn't already, that it could have been them...


----------



## killer b (Sep 17, 2012)

i don't know a football fan of any team who hasn't thought this for years tbh.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 17, 2012)

Carol Ann Duffy wrote this about the release/report:



> The Cathedral bell, tolled, could never tell;
> nor the Liver Birds, mute in their stone spell;
> or the Mersey, though seagulls wailed, cursed, overhead,
> in no language for the slandered dead…
> ...


----------



## killer b (Sep 17, 2012)

is that in her official capacity do you know?


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 17, 2012)

Apparently not.


----------



## killer b (Sep 17, 2012)

good stuff anyway.


----------



## Favelado (Sep 17, 2012)

This past week I've watched a lot of old footage.

One guy who crops up frequently is Paul Middup.

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/2012...dup-defended-by-police-union-100252-31850383/

He appeared in the days after Hillsborough attacking the fans quite vociferously on various TV channels and was at the heart of the smearing process.

He has declined to apologise.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 17, 2012)

Favelado said:


> This past week I've watched a lot of old footage.
> 
> One guy who crops up frequently is Paul Middup.
> 
> ...


 
I've got some middup stuff to come back to later i think.

This:



> A SENIOR South Yorkshire police chief raised the prospect of a junior officer taking the blame for the fateful decision to open Hillsborough’s Gate C, the ECHO has discovered.
> 
> Deputy Chief Constable (DCC) Peter Hayes discussed the possibility despite knowing full well the decision to open gates had been taken by the match commander Chief Supt David Duckenfield.
> 
> The possible plan is uncovered in documents contained within the damning Hillsborough Panel Report released last week.


 
The further people get into the documents the worse it gets.


----------



## Fedayn (Sep 17, 2012)

This is Middup being interviewed here


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 17, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> There's a couple of very important points to bear in mind when looking at the role that individual journalists played or failed to play in the immediate aftermath, then the inquests then the long years afterwards.
> 
> *Firstly, a lot of the reporting was by news reporters who were a) not part of football culture and didn't understand the way fans were treated, the way we were herded like cattle etc* and b) used to talking to the police and using them as their primary source - questioning and criticising them is the fast path to getting yourself cut off from those sources.
> 
> ...





Ash Mahay said:


> Evidence please?


Do you doubt these things? (i've included your bold in my original). Let's get this clear if we're going to do this.


----------



## Voley (Sep 17, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> This is Middup being interviewed here


More grim viewing. I'm glad it's recorded for posterity though.


----------



## laptop (Sep 17, 2012)

NVP said:


> More grim viewing. I'm glad it's recorded for posterity though.


 
I don't believe there's a cop called Widdup. Mounted branch? Widdy-up?


----------



## Fedayn (Sep 17, 2012)

Goodison tonight.


----------



## scifisam (Sep 18, 2012)

The journalists wrote it like that because they - or at least a lot of them - already thought football fans, and working-class people in general, were vile violent vermin always pissed up and out to hurt people for a laugh, and leapt on the MP's and PCs' stories as the proof for what they already knew. They'd do the same now - it's not as if the press treat the working class any better these days. 

BTW, does anyone remember how the Mirror treated the tragedy?



Ash Mahay said:


> Evidence please?


 
Do you also need evidence that the Pope is Catholic?


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Sep 18, 2012)

Thanks Fed; the contrast between the dishonest self serving Widdup interview and the Goodison commemoration couldn't be much more telling.

All the best - Louis MacNeice


----------



## sleaterkinney (Sep 19, 2012)

It's all in here, bastards

http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/repository/docs/SYP000046060001.pdf


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 19, 2012)

Interesting to see that Mole, the copper who was replaced on matchday by Duckenfield was right in there trying to sell the drunk fans narrative almost a year later.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Sep 19, 2012)

More stuff from David Conn, particularly about the Sheffield Wednesday directors and them not accepting liability

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/...eld-wednesday-manslaughter-charge?INTCMP=SRCH


----------



## Favelado (Sep 20, 2012)

http://www.channel4.com/news/kelvin-mackenzie-doorstepped-by-channel-4-news

OH SWEET JOY


----------



## Corax (Sep 20, 2012)

And today, we have testimony of Mark Duggan's magic vanishing firearm, which disappeared as soon as Duggan was shot, and could be found nowhere at the scene afterwards.  And which the firearms cop forgot to mention the existence of in his initial statement.  Well, it's only a trivial detail I guess.

So it's good to see that lessons have been learned by the police.


----------



## Fedayn (Sep 20, 2012)

He was a cunt for doing The Word but Terry Christian has a really good blog piece here


----------



## Ash Mahay (Sep 21, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Do you doubt these things? (i've included your bold in my original). Let's get this clear if we're going to do this.



Yes, & I'll tell you why. Around that time I was given a completely different profile of these people & obviously when given two completely oppossing views you will obviously have doubts & ask for evidence.

Can you present it please?


----------



## Ash Mahay (Sep 21, 2012)

scifisam said:


> Do you also need evidence that the Pope is Catholic?



If Id previously been given evidence that the incumbent was Hindu then yes.

Wouldnt you?


----------



## scifisam (Sep 21, 2012)

Ash Mahay said:


> If Id previously been given evidence that the incumbent was Hindu then yes.
> 
> Wouldnt you?


 
What, you'd previously been given evidence that the police and the establishment love football fans?


----------



## Maltin (Sep 21, 2012)

Ash Mahay said:


> Yes, & I'll tell you why. Around that time I was given a completely different profile of these people & obviously when given two completely oppossing views you will obviously have doubts & ask for evidence.
> 
> Can you present it please?


How about you presenting your other profile of "these people" so we can compare and contrast as well?


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 21, 2012)

Ash Mahay said:


> Yes, & I'll tell you why. Around that time I was given a completely different profile of these people & obviously when given two completely oppossing views you will obviously have doubts & ask for evidence.
> 
> Can you present it please?


Er...what? What do you mean that you 'were given a completely different profile of these people'? Do you mean the news-reporters and the football reporters? Or do you mean other groups? By who? Who is giving you a profile of these sets of people and why? And if this is who you for some reason were offered a dossier on, what did it say and what evidence did it contain to support whatever profile it presented.

I can easily enough demonstrate that news reporters rely on police to get their info - anyone could do this. The Panels report actually demonstrates how this happens. As for football reporters of the time being public-school educated or not part of football culture - i need only point you to people like Brian Glanville, or the wars people like Steve Curry, James Lawton and David Lacey had with england football fans (including physical altercations on away trips)  and the contempt that they were held in by supporters for their aggressive dismissive attitude to fans pre-hillsborough, esp as regards the conditions we had to put up with. I can also point to this issue repeatedly coming up in the years following the formation of the Football Supporters Association I doubt many who went to the games then would disagree with this - and would like to see why you do.


----------



## Ash Mahay (Sep 21, 2012)

Maltin said:


> How about you presenting your otheor profile of "these people" so we can compare and contrast as well?



Because this was about 25 years ago & offline?


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 21, 2012)

Ash Mahay said:


> Because this was about 25 years ago & offline?


What did this profile say an who presented you with it? What evidence did it provide to support its conclusions?


----------



## Maltin (Sep 21, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Er...what? What do you mean that you 'were given a completely different profile of these people'? Do you mean the news-reporters and the football reporters? Or do you mean other groups? By who? Who is giving you a profile of these sets of people and why? And if this is who you for some reason were offered a dossier on, what did it say and what evidence did it contain to support whatever profile it presented.
> 
> I can easily enough demonstrate that news reporters rely on police to get their info - anyone could do this. The Panels report actually demonstrates how this happens. As for football reporters of the time being public-school educated or not part of football culture - i need only point you to people like Brian Glanville, or the wars people like Steve Curry, James Lawton and David Lacey had with england football fans (including physical altercations on away trips) at the and the contempt that they were held in by supporters for their aggressive dismissive attitude to fans pre-hillsborough, esp as regards the conditions we had to put up with. I can also point to this issue repeatedly coming up in the years following the formation of the Football Supporters Association I doubt many who went to the games then would disagree with this - and would like to see why you do.


I don't think that you can argue that someone like Brian Glanville isn't a football fan or not part of football culture. He might not like the way that certain people behave and may not have much in common with the "average" fan, especially back then, but that doesn't mean he isn't a fan or part of football culture.


----------



## Ash Mahay (Sep 21, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Er...what? What do you mean that you 'were given a completely different profile of these people'? Do you mean the news-reporters and the football reporters? Or do you mean other groups? By who? Who is giving you a profile of these sets of people and why? And if this is who you for some reason were offered a dossier on, what did it say and what evidence did it contain to support whatever profile it presented.
> 
> I can easily enough demonstrate that news reporters rely on police to get their info - anyone could do this. The Panels report actually demonstrates how this happens. As for football reporters of the time being public-school educated or not part of football culture - i need only point you to people like Brian Glanville, or the wars people like Steve Curry, James Lawton and David Lacey had with england football fans (including physical altercations on away trips) at the and the contempt that they were held in by supporters for their aggressive dismissive attitude to fans pre-hillsborough, esp as regards the conditions we had to put up with. I can also point to this issue repeatedly coming up in the years following the formation of the Football Supporters Association I doubt many who went to the games then would disagree with this - and would like to see why you do.



Thats not evidence. Thats a handful of examples (out of hundreds of people) that neither proves or disproves your claims.

Do you actually have evidence or are you now saying you "guessed" at it based on these examples?


----------



## Ash Mahay (Sep 21, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Er...what? What do you mean that you 'were given a completely different profile of these people'? Do you mean the news-reporters and the football reporters? Or do you mean other groups? By who? Who is giving you a profile of these sets of people and why? And if this is who you for some reason were offered a dossier on, what did it say and what evidence did it contain to support whatever profile it presented.
> 
> I can easily enough demonstrate that news reporters rely on police to get their info - anyone could do this. The Panels report actually demonstrates how this happens. As for football reporters of the time being public-school educated or not part of football culture - i need only point you to people like Brian Glanville, or the wars people like Steve Curry, James Lawton and David Lacey had with england football fans (including physical altercations on away trips) at the and the contempt that they were held in by supporters for their aggressive dismissive attitude to fans pre-hillsborough, esp as regards the conditions we had to put up with. I can also point to this issue repeatedly coming up in the years following the formation of the Football Supporters Association I doubt many who went to the games then would disagree with this - and would like to see why you do.



Thats not evidence. Thats a handful of examples (out of hundreds of people) that neither proves or disproves your claims.

Do you actually have evidence or are you now saying you "guessed" at it based on these examples?


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 21, 2012)

Maltin said:


> I don't think that you can argue that someone like Brian Glanville isn't a football fan or not part of football culture. He might not like the way that certain people behave and may not have much in common with the "average" fan, especially back then, but that doesn't mean he isn't a fan or part of football culture.


I didn't say he isn't a football fan - i said he wasn't part of football culture - the last meaning supporter culture, meaning going to away games together, being part of that collective experience of football support. He wasn't only not part of that culture, he looked down on it.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 21, 2012)

scifisam said:


> What, you'd previously been given evidence that the police and the establishment love football fans?


 
I think he's trying to say that soccer journos have always been thoroughly decent chaps who don't feel contempt for soccer fans.
Unfortunately, given that then as now, reporters are mostly drawn from the middle-classes, and that the middle-classes have only become "interested" in soccer in the last 20 years, it's entirely possible that people who prefer rugby and cricket were employed to report on a sport they had no bond with, and were disturbed or disgusted by the boisterousness and tribalism of soccer fans. "Professionalism" only takes someone so far, and there were always "better" stories to be made about pitch invasions than there were about team "a" beating team "b".


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 21, 2012)

Maltin said:


> How about you presenting your other profile of "these people" so we can compare and contrast as well?


 
Don't hold your breath.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 21, 2012)

Ash Mahay said:


> Thats not evidence. Thats a handful of examples (out of hundreds of people) that neither proves or disproves your claims.
> 
> Do you actually have evidence or are you now saying you "guessed" at it based on these examples?


 
Is your username your actual name, as you claimed on another thread?


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 21, 2012)

Ash Mahay said:


> Thats not evidence. Thats a handful of examples (out of hundreds of people) that neither proves or disproves your claims.
> 
> Do you actually have evidence or are you now saying you "guessed" at it based on these examples?


Of course it's evidence - the panel itself provides reams of evidence of how new-reporters were reliant on the police for their info and how the police used this reliance to their advantage in a way that they would not have been able to do so if these reporters were part of the supporter culture. It's one of the main points of the report - and you doubt it? I've asked you why and you've replied because you were given another profile 25 years ago but when pushed on this you seem to have nothing to say. Do you want to outline this other profile, who offered it to you and what evidence it relied onto make it's case. You can make your outline of it as 'guessy' as mine above if you like, but you really do have to outline it and the answers to those questions billy.


----------



## Ash Mahay (Sep 21, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> I think he's trying to say that soccer journos have always been thoroughly decent chaps who don't feel contempt for soccer fans.



Im saying I have no clue but that the NUJ were giving an opposite picture to the one here in about 84/85 & Id love to see the evidence that proves one right, or wrong.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 21, 2012)

Ash Mahay said:


> Im saying I have no clue but that the NUJ were giving an opposite picture to the one here in about 84/85 & Id love to see the evidence that proves one right, or wrong.


You said that you already have - hence you doubting my post. Are you now saying that you haven't?


----------



## Maltin (Sep 21, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> I think he's trying to say that soccer journos have always been thoroughly decent chaps who don't feel contempt for soccer fans.
> Unfortunately, given that then as now, reporters are mostly drawn from the middle-classes, and that the middle-classes have only become "interested" in soccer in the last 20 years, it's entirely possible that people who prefer rugby and cricket were employed to report on a sport they had no bond with, and were disturbed or disgusted by the boisterousness and tribalism of soccer fans. "Professionalism" only takes someone so far, and there were always "better" stories to be made about pitch invasions than there were about team "a" beating team "b".


i don't think you have to be middle class to be disturbed or disgusted by the behaviour of some football fans then and now.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 21, 2012)

I wonder why there was a huge growth in football fanzines in this period? Surely not because there was a massive gap between what the football journos wrote and what supporters wanted to read?


----------



## Ash Mahay (Sep 21, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Of course it's evidence.



No. Its a few names. I could sit here and claim the vast majority of unemployed are public school bullies and name you a handful of public school people on the dole, but it wouldnt be proof and I wouldnt be right either.

It was a simple question, asked for a simple reason & Ill ask one last time, do you have evidence or did you make it up?


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 21, 2012)

Ash Mahay said:


> No. Its a few names. I could sit here and claim the vast majority of unemployed are public school bullies and name you a handful of public school people on the dole, but it wouldnt be proof and I wouldnt be right either.
> 
> It was a simple question, asked for a simple reason & Ill ask one last time, do you have evidence or did you make it up?


No, the Hillsborough Independent Panel was not just a few names - it outlined in great detail how news reporters were reliant on the police for info and were taken for a ride in the way that someone from the football supporting culture would not have been able to - exactly in the way that i suggested and that you doubted.. The names i listed were of privately educated and also outside of the culture football writers who had very fractious relationships with the supporters that at times spilled over into violence (one flight home in particular if i recall correctly) - i reckon that violence might not have happened if that hostile relationship didn't exist. What do you think? I also outlined that this was also a recurring issue for one of the groups that grew out of supporter culture at that time, and suggested that another development indicating the existence of this gap was the incredible growth of fanzines in this period.

Any progress on the details of this report that you say that the NUJ provided you with on news and football reporters in 84/85 yet? Have you recalled what it said and what evidence it used to support what it said? You must have some recollection in order to have made the posts that you have - so come on billy, let's have it.


----------



## Maltin (Sep 21, 2012)

Ash Mahay said:


> Im saying I have no clue but that the NUJ were giving an opposite picture to the one here in about 84/85 & Id love to see the evidence that proves one right, or wrong.


Do you think that the NUJ would give an objective view and state if their journalists were not interested in football or did not have much in common with the average fan?


----------



## Ash Mahay (Sep 21, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> You said that you already have - hence you doubting my post. Are you now saying that you haven't?



No. Im saying based on previous information & having two oppossing views now presented to me Id naturally like proof.

Why are you so reluctant to back up your statement with the evidence?

Surely if what was previously presented to me was not true, & you have the truth, you'd have happily presented it (days ago)?

Im confused by your reluctance to present your evidence, unless you are saying now you did make it up based on a couple of examples & existing prejudices?

All I want, as Im sure is the case for the majority of the tens of thousands who were in Sheffield that day, is the truth.


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Sep 21, 2012)

Give it up Ash.


----------



## Ash Mahay (Sep 21, 2012)

Maltin said:


> Do you think that the NUJ would give an objective view and state if their journalists were not interested in football or did not have much in common with the average fan?



Thats one of the things Im trying to find out, & butchersapron seems determined not to answer in a straight fashion, for some reason calling me by alien names, trying to fudge issues & refusing to provide evidence.

At present the NUJ looks a lot more reliable.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 21, 2012)

Ash Mahay said:


> No. Im saying based on previous information & having two oppossing views now presented to me Id naturally like proof.
> 
> Why are you so reluctant to back up your statement with the evidence?
> 
> ...


No, you said that you had been presented with a different profile of the people who i mentioned. When asked what this profile amounted to you are unable to say a single thing about it, about what it said or what evidence it used to support it's position. Nothing. You claimed to have seen evidence that undermined my post, now you claim to have no evidence which does so - in fact, you claim not to have seen any evidence at all. Do make your mind up.

I, on the other hand, have provided you with a series of 'evidences' (all of which you repeatedly ignore) based on the findings of the panel, personal experience, incidents that took place at the time and developments that would indicate the existence of the gap i suggested existed. You can say again and again that i haven't, and that i must therefore admit that i 'made it up' - but i tell you here and now billy, you ain't fooling anyone by trying that trick.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 21, 2012)

Ash Mahay said:


> Thats one of the things Im trying to find out, & butchersapron seems determined not to answer in a straight fashion, for some reason calling me by alien names, trying to fudge issues & refusing to provide evidence.
> 
> At present the NUJ looks a lot more reliable.


Cool, let's have a look at the content of the profile of news and football reporters that they for some reason presented you with in 84/5 - let's see what it says and what evidence it uses to support what it says. Crack on with your presentation please.


----------



## Ash Mahay (Sep 21, 2012)

Brixton Hatter said:


> Give it up Ash.



Are you suggesting that you dont expect to ever see this evidence either?


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 21, 2012)

(and for people who think this is a pointless derail, it is a bit but the way that fans were treated and viewed - _and why_ - by even people who you would think would naturally be sympathetic to them is one of the blocks on which the cover-up, the white-wash and the smears were constructed)


----------



## Ash Mahay (Sep 21, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> No, you said that you had been presented with a different profile of the people who i mentioned. When asked what this profile amounted to you are unable to say a single thing about it, about what it said or what evidence it used to support it's position. Nothing. You claimed to have seen evidence that undermined my post, now you claim to have no evidence which does so - in fact, you claim not to have seen any evidence at all. Do make your mind up.
> 
> I, on the other hand, have provided you with a series of 'evidences' (all of which you repeatedly ignore) based on the findings of the panel, personal experience, incidents that took place at the time and developments that would indicate the existence of the gap i suggested existed. You can say again and again that i haven't, and that i must therefore admit that i 'made it up' - but i tell you here and now billy, you ain't fooling anyone by trying that trick.



No. You have provided no evidence, which is increasingly suggesting you made it up & given the nature of this thread if thats true you are sick. So put up or shut up. No more BS. Present your evidence.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 21, 2012)

Ash Mahay said:


> Im saying I have no clue but that the NUJ were giving an opposite picture to the one here in about 84/85 & Id love to see the evidence that proves one right, or wrong.


 
I don't recall there being an NUJ line on football or football fans in the mid-'80s, and as I was a member at the time, I *should* recall it.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 21, 2012)

Oh dear it is this then: You can say again and again that i haven't, and that i must therefore admit that i 'made it up' - but i tell you here and now billy, you ain't fooling anyone by trying that trick.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 21, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> I don't recall there being an NUJ line on football or football fans in the mid-'80s, and as I was a member at the time, I *should* recall it.


Billy was probably FOC of the biggest newsroom in the country at the time i expect.


----------



## Maltin (Sep 21, 2012)

Ash Mahay said:


> Thats one of the things Im trying to find out, & butchersapron seems determined not to answer in a straight fashion, for some reason calling me by alien names, trying to fudge issues & refusing to provide evidence.
> 
> At present the NUJ looks a lot more reliable.


You really need evidence to determine whether a members organisation is likely to portray its members in a negative light or not? I can't see how the NUJ are likely to be an objective source of evidence in relation to their members. 

Asking someone to post evidence related to a disparate group of people 23 years ago prior to the Internet age is probably quite difficult and time consuming so it is unsurprising that butchers hasn't been able to necessarily support it.

Why you feel unable to post this apparently opposing view that you have been told is bizarre though.


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 21, 2012)

Ash Mahay said:


> Are you suggesting that you dont expect to ever see this evidence either?


 
tbh honest you're not coming across great here.  I for one would love to see some of your evidence, because I was listening to the radio the other day and their was a journo on who had covered the story from the tragedy through the cover up to the recent findings and he was basically saying exactly the same as BA when asked why the journos of the time had not investigated properly and just took the word of the police as gospel.

Of course I can't remember the guys name so you won't accept this as evidence, but given its our null hypothesis do you have any information the contrary?


----------



## Ash Mahay (Sep 21, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> I don't recall there being an NUJ line on football or football fans in the mid-'80s, and as I was a member at the time, I *should* recall it.



No. About reporters, not about fans & in response to attacks against some NUJ members, not inline with the print unions over Wapping.

More familiar now?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 21, 2012)

Maltin said:


> i don't think you have to be middle class to be disturbed or disgusted by the behaviour of some football fans then and now.


 
You're missing my point, which is that disgust wasn't just exhibited at the hooliganism of "some" fans, but at normal terrace and post-match boisterousness of *most* fans. For a time in the '70s and '80s the TV companies had cameras out on the streets following supporters in the hope that something kicked off, even at "family" clubs like Fulham.


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 21, 2012)

Ash Mahay said:


> No. You have provided no evidence, which is increasingly suggesting you made it up & given the nature of this thread if thats true you are sick. So put up or shut up. No more BS. Present your evidence.


 
Calm it down stampy feet.

This is a very important issue and deserves better then childish ego.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 21, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Billy was probably FOC of the biggest newsroom in the country at the time i expect.


 
If he was, then his name certainly can't really be Ash Mahay. 
I got scolded by our FOC for baa-ing at the editor.


----------



## Ash Mahay (Sep 21, 2012)

Teaboy said:


> Calm it down stampy feet.
> 
> This is a very important issue and deserves better then childish ego.



I agree. I was there. Thats one reason I asked for proof & why I dnt appreciate bs on the matter.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 21, 2012)

Ash Mahay said:


> No. You have provided no evidence, which is increasingly suggesting you made it up & given the nature of this thread if thats true you are sick. So put up or shut up. No more BS. Present your evidence.


 
Starting in with the accusations of people having mental health problems again, I see.


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 21, 2012)

Ash Mahay said:


> I agree. I was there. Thats one reason I asked for proof & why I dnt appreciate bs on the matter.


 
You're not getting bs at all, you're getting a reasoned argument which you may disagree with, me (like I'm sure everyone else is) would love to know your reasons for disagreement.

Incidentally, if you don't mind me asking, when you say you were there, in what capacity?


----------



## Ash Mahay (Sep 21, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Starting in with the accusations of people having mental health problems again, I see.



Are you telling me its not sick to make things up about such an event?

For 23 years Ive held its a sick practice. Im saddened if people are suggesting its ok.


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 21, 2012)

Ash Mahay said:


> Are you telling me its not sick to make things up about such an event?
> 
> For 23 years Ive held its a sick practice. Im saddened if people are suggesting its ok.


 
I'm beginning to have my doubts about you.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 21, 2012)

Ash Mahay said:


> Are you telling me its not sick to make things up about such an event?
> 
> For 23 years Ive held its a sick practice. Im saddened if people are suggesting its ok.


I'd like you to point out exactly where i've made up anything about hillsborough.

Then i'd like you to offer your outline of this profile of news and football reporters you claimed that the NUJ presented you with in 85/5 and the evidence it offered for its case. Wapping was 86 btw so a profile relating to this dispute a year before it started would be very interesting.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 21, 2012)

Maltin said:


> You really need evidence to determine whether a members organisation is likely to portray its members in a negative light or not? I can't see how the NUJ are likely to be an objective source of evidence in relation to their members.


 
The NUJ have historically been a halfway decent union when it came to fighting the bosses (and I emphasise "halfway", because it's usually been the membership taking the lumps, not the national officers), but they've always (as with any union) striven to present the membership in the best light - it's one of their reasons for being.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 21, 2012)

Ash Mahay said:


> Are you telling me its not sick to make things up about such an event?
> 
> For 23 years Ive held its a sick practice. Im saddened if people are suggesting its ok.


 
What's he made up that's germane to the actual tragedy, rather than how it, and the victims were portrayed?

Fuck all.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 21, 2012)

Ash Mahay said:


> No. About reporters, not about fans & in response to attacks against some NUJ members, not inline with the print unions over Wapping.
> 
> More familiar now?


 
Nope, and the only attacks I recall (including Peter McKay taking a blinder to the nose) were usually in reaction to a specific story on a specific person.
Then again, I was only a lowly sub-ed on a national, what do I know?


----------



## Ash Mahay (Sep 21, 2012)

Teaboy said:


> You're not getting bs at all, you're getting a reasoned argument.



No, in a reasoned argument, if someone presents something as fact & are asked to provide the evidence they based those statements on, they either present the evidence or state its an opinion & not backed by evidence.

What they dont do is avoid presenting that evidence, lie, or attack.



> Incidentally, if you don't mind me asking, when you say you were there, in what capacity?



I lived in Nottingham at the time & my friend, who was a Liverpool supporter got two tickets for the match & knowing I liked my football he invited me along (the match was against Forest so there were local bragging rights & other things at stake as well).


----------



## Ash Mahay (Sep 21, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> What's he made up that's germane to the actual tragedy, rather than how it, and the victims were portrayed?
> 
> Fuck all.



Apart from possibly his whole fabricated rant?

Are you really trying to defend this?


----------



## Ash Mahay (Sep 21, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Nope, and the only attacks I recall (including Peter McKay taking a blinder to the nose) were usually in reaction to a specific story on a specific person.
> Then again, I was only a lowly sub-ed on a national, what do I know?



So you do remember the tensions & accusations?


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 21, 2012)

Ash Mahay said:


> Apart from possibly his whole fabricated rant?
> 
> Are you really trying to defend this?


 
Nah, you're not real. On the bloody Hillsborough thread as well, sheesh.


----------



## Ash Mahay (Sep 21, 2012)

Teaboy said:


> On the bloody Hilsborough thread as well, sheesh.



Thats exactly my point. On a thread about people lying & trying to make political gain from a horrible tragedy?

Youd expect someone to be extra careful to be honest & willing to back up their words.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 21, 2012)

Ash Mahay said:


> Apart from possibly his whole fabricated rant?


 
Except that he hasn't fabricated anything, despite your attempts to label him otherwise.
Why not just answer his question if you believe him to have fabricated what he said? Surely it's a surefire way to show him up as a liar *if* you're right?



> Are you really trying to defend this?


 
Am I defending what he's said? Let's just say that I'd like to know the answer to his question too, to see if it marries up with what I remember.
Am I defending someone of known integrity? Fucking right I am.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 21, 2012)

Ash Mahay said:


> Thats exactly my point. On a thread about people lying & trying to make political gain from a horrible tragedy?
> 
> Youd expect someone to be extra careful to be honest & willing to back up their words.


You've got three things to do now. 

1) Respond to the evidence i presented - critique it, take it apart, whatever but respond.
2) Post your outline of the profile you were given of news and football reporters in 84/5 and precis the evidence it offereed for its case.
3) Find me lying about Hillsborough.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 21, 2012)

Ash Mahay said:


> So you do remember the tensions & accusations?


 
I remember a few of the more overpaid _prima donnas_ getting a fit of the vapours that they might get a smack for their more scurrilous bollocks, but I don't recall any general worry that any NUJ member was a target (except perhaps by Redwatch).


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 21, 2012)

Just to remind people or people who can't be bothered to go back and look - my lies about Hillsborough in full:



> There's a couple of very important points to bear in mind when looking at the role that individual journalists played or failed to play in the immediate aftermath, then the inquests then the long years afterwards.
> 
> Firstly, a lot of the reporting was by news reporters who were a) not part of football culture and didn't understand the way fans were treated, the way we were herded like cattle etc and b) used to talking to the police and using them as their primary source - questioning and criticising them is the fast path to getting yourself cut off from those sources.
> 
> ...


----------



## Ash Mahay (Sep 21, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Except that he hasn't fabricated anything, despite your attempts to label him otherwise.
> Why not just answer his question if you believe him to have fabricated what he said? Surely it's a surefire way to show him up as a liar *if* you're right?
> 
> Are you really trying to defend this?


 
Am I defending what he's said? Let's just say that I'd like to know the answer to his question too, to see if it marries up with what I remember.
Am I defending someone of known integrity? Fucking right I am.[/quote]

Lets get somethings straight. 

Firstly I asked for proof, not because I doubted him, but because what he said directly contradicted what Id heard before on the parts I highlighted.

Its what I do. Its what most people do. If someone tells them something & then someone else comes along & tells them something different you ask them for proof, dont you?

What have I had in response to that?

Not evidence, thats for sure.

Ive had a guy avoid backing up his statement, trying to fudge the issue, a few insults, a made up name & other bs.

Everything in fact apart from any evidence & lets face it, on this thread more than any other, because of its subject matter, youd expect a man to be desperate to back things up, wouldnt you?

I didnt call him a liar, but I have said his behaviour is consistent with a liar, because we both know it is.

Sure, hes your buddy, you want to take his side, but we both know his actions are not consistent with that of an honest man.

Does that make him a liar? No, but it does ask questions that any reasonable man would want answers to.

Your running inteference, under such circumstances is a defence, in the same way that a lie of omisson is still a lie, despite nothing being said.

Now I dont care about your views concerning his past integrity, all I asked was a simple question, can he provide evidence of what he said.

Can he?

Its a simple question that hes avoided a straight answer too over a period of several days and many posts.

How about you push for the truth, instead of for your friends?

Or are you still having day dreams about cannon fodder?


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 21, 2012)

Ash Mahay said:


> Lets get somethings straight.
> 
> Firstly I asked for proof, *not because I doubted him*, but because what he said directly contradicted what Id heard before on the parts I highlighted.


 
Your first lines. Let's look shall we?




			
				butchers[B said:
			
		

> ]Do you doubt these things?[/B] (i've included your bold in my original). Let's get this clear if we're going to do this.


 
Your response:




			
				ash said:
			
		

> *Yes, & I'll tell you why*. Around that time I was given a completely different profile of these people & obviously when given two completely oppossing views you will obviously have doubts & ask for evidence.


 
Come on.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 21, 2012)

Ash Mahay said:


> Lets get somethings straight.
> 
> Firstly I asked for proof, not because I doubted him, but because what he said directly contradicted what Id heard before on the parts I highlighted.
> 
> ...


 

I have provided you with a series of 'evidences' (all of which you repeatedly ignore) based on the findings of the panel, personal experience, incidents that took place at the time and developments that would indicate the existence of the gap i suggested existed. You have provided nothing, ignored requests to back up your claim of this profile of news and football reporters you were given and what it said - call me cynical but i'm starting to suspect that you sort of you know...made it up.

You can say again and again that i haven't, and that i must therefore admit that i 'made it up' - but i tell you here and now billy, you ain't fooling anyone by trying that trick.


----------



## Ash Mahay (Sep 21, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> I remember a few of the more overpaid _prima donnas_ getting a fit of the vapours that they might get a smack for their more scurrilous bollocks, but I don't recall any general worry that any NUJ member was a target (except perhaps by Redwatch).



Perhaps if you want to move this forward, as an ex-NUJ member, you might be able to answer the very simple question asked?

Were football reporters, on the whole, ex-public school boys on a class war against supporters?

Not some, not a few, not editors, not editorial direction, but the vast majority of reporters, almost to a man, from the broad sheets, the tabloids, dailies, weeklies, & every local paper & magazine out there?

& do you have proof of this if it was the truth?

It would be nice to actually have an answer, positive, or negative, wouldnt it?


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 21, 2012)

I think unless billy is going to post up his mythical profile, what it says and what evidence it presents to undermine my case about how the police were able to exploit the gap between news and football reporters and supporters and the social prejudices this was based on, and how in the following years this may have lead to a lack of focus or interest in what happened, in what the families were saying about their experiences and what questions they were asking then there's little relevance to this thread, or in continuing indulging his idiocy - not on this particular thread anyway.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 21, 2012)

Ash Mahay said:


> Am I defending what he's said? Let's just say that I'd like to know the answer to his question too, to see if it marries up with what I remember.
> Am I defending someone of known integrity? Fucking right I am.


 


> Lets get somethings straight.
> 
> Firstly I asked for proof, not because I doubted him, but because what he said directly contradicted what Id heard before on the parts I highlighted.
> 
> ...


 
1) He's not my "buddy" or my "friend".

2) Nice bit of crossthread posting there. Pity I actually pointed out to you on a post on that thread where I mentioned "cannon fodder", that you were misrepresenting what I said.

3) The "name" he's calling you, Billy? Use your imagination. I'm sure a man whose been to as many places and done as much as you have can work it out. Keith Waterhouse did.


----------



## Ash Mahay (Sep 21, 2012)

Repeat it often enough and...



butchersapron said:


> I have provided you with a series of 'evidences' (all of which you repeatedly ignore) based on the findings of the panel, personal experience, incidents that took place at the time and developments that would indicate the existence of the gap i suggested existed. You have provided nothing, ignored requests to back up your claim of this profile of news and football reporters you were given and what it said - call me cynical but i'm starting to suspect that you sort of you know...made it up.
> 
> You can say again and again that i haven't, and that i must therefore admit that i 'made it up' - but i tell you here and now billy, you ain't fooling anyone by trying that trick.




I hope no ones stupid enough to buy that.

Your repeated evidences?

Where in the panel report does it state your opinions on this as a class war?

Apart from that deception you gave me a few names out of hundreds of people?

Anything else?

Come on VP! Is this your "integrity"?

I bet you £50 you wouldnt take a shit answer like this from me!


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 21, 2012)

Ash Mahay said:


> Where in the panel report does it state your opinions on this as a class war?


 
This is it is it? 

The panel's report (and the lengthy previous work by Scraton that i've quoted and linked to on this thread) outlined in meticulous detail (as does the dossier of documents, two in particular linked to on this very thread) how the police used the naivety of some reporters and their reliance on the police as sources of info to further their twisted narrative of what happened. This is in no doubt to anyone but you - and it was in very little doubt how news or crime reporters operate before the panel reported - what with it being a staple method of news/crime reporting for as long as both have existed.

You're going to have to do better than this. You can start by doing the three things i listed before and then relating them to Hillsborough: 

1) Respond to the evidence i presented - critique it, take it apart, whatever but respond.
2) Post your outline of the profile you were given of news and football reporters in 84/5 and precis the evidence it offereed for its case.
3) Find me lying about Hillsborough


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 21, 2012)

Ash Mahay said:


> Perhaps if you want to move this forward, as an ex-NUJ member, you might be able to answer the very simple question asked?
> 
> Were football reporters, on the whole, ex-public school boys on a class war against supporters?
> 
> ...


 
I can only speak for what I saw in London, Norwich and Brum, but I'd say that a majority of sports reporters for the nationals at the time had an _animus_ against soccer fans, as did many crews up/down from London to film (as opposed to local cameramen and soundmen). I'm measuring this against how I saw the media in West Germany treat soccer fans in the same period - much more give and take between clubs and the press, and consequently much more acceptance by the media of what soccer fans were *about*, *and* acceptance by the fans that the media weren't there to get at them. I rarely saw that happen at any match I attended in the UK in the '80s.

Was it "class war"? No, it wasn't that open, it was more often knife-in-the-back stuff *by* them, *on* us, because it was easy to get yourself a piece in the front of the paper, maybe even front page, if you could write something denunciatory about fan behaviour, even if that meant exaggerating the fuck out of what had actually happened.

Were the sports journos mostly middle-class (as in public school)? A lot of them, rounded out with a small percentage of grammar boys. Ironically, the class divide in general in journalism is even worse nowadays than it used to be, given that a journalism place on a paper almost always requires a degree now.

And don't ask for yes/no answers when the matter isn't conducive to them, there's a good chap.


----------



## Ash Mahay (Sep 21, 2012)

The sort of post Id expect from you VP. Short on relevance & lots of drivel.



> 1) He's not my "buddy" or my "friend".



Ive told you before, forget your semantic arguments, pick your own labels if it makes you happy, but you knew (& ignored) what I meant.



> 2) Nice bit of crossthread posting there. Pity I actually pointed out to you on a post on that thread where I mentioned "cannon fodder", that you were misrepresenting what I said.





ViolentPanda said:


> With penetrating insight like that, you'd make good...well, cannon fodder, that's about all.



Dress it up anyway you want. You tried to come on all big.



> 3) The "name" he's calling you, Billy? Use your imagination. I'm sure a man whose been to as many places and done as much as you have can work it out. Keith Waterhouse did.



& does that change what I said (or address anything relevant to the issue)?

Anything to say about the actual issues or will it be just more backtracking on your tough guy act?


----------



## scifisam (Sep 21, 2012)

This is really bizarre. Ash refuses to provide his 'evidence' that apparently somehow disagrees with the contention that most journalists in the eighties were middle-class, and then complains about other people's lack of evidence for something that's blindingly obvious.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 21, 2012)

Ash Mahay said:


> Repeat it often enough and...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Ash, I don't take* any* answer at face value, not from you, or from anyone else.

As for the "points" you're trying to make; does a class war have to be publicly-declared in order to exist? Would you, given your own opinions, accept even a hundred names, if such an answer took you outside of your cognitive safety zone?
And if you're wondering what I mean about your opinions, I mean your manifestation of a type of argument from authority, i.e. you were at Hillsborough, therefore you know better, whatever the related subject,  than someone who wasn't there.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 21, 2012)

Given that ash is unable to provide any evidence, given that he's been rumbled and given that he cannot relate all this bollockery to Hillsborough - to the panels report or to where things go now or why they happened as they did, i really don't think there's much point in allowing him to drag this important thread down this route.

If anyone else wants to talk about the post i made that ash doubted (and then lied about point blank saying that he didn't doubt it) and how it relates to Hillsborough and after we can (if you doubt it or if it backs up your own experience at the time or of other things, or whatever) then i'm happy to. Just don't think it's worth all this effort with billy.


----------



## Ash Mahay (Sep 21, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> This is it is it?
> 
> The panel's report (and the lengthy previous work by Scraton that i've quoted and linked to on this thread) outlined in meticulous detail (as does the dossier of documents, two in particular linked to on this very thread) how the police used the naivety of some reporters and their reliance on the police as sources of info to further their twisted narrative of what happened.



Which has zero to do with the point under discussion & therefore doesnt back it up.



> This is in no doubt to anyone but you - and it was in very little doubt how news or crime reporters operate before the panel reported - what with it being a staple method of news/crime reporting for as long as both have existed.



See above.

Come on VP, are you telling me this isnt evasive fudging?



ViolentPanda said:


> I can only speak for what I saw in London, Norwich and Brum, but I'd say that a majority of sports reporters for the nationals at the time had an _animus_ against soccer fans, as did many crews up/down from London to film (as opposed to local cameramen and soundmen). I'm measuring this against how I saw the media in West Germany treat soccer fans in the same period - much more give and take between clubs and the press, and consequently much more acceptance by the media of what soccer fans were *about*, *and* acceptance by the fans that the media weren't there to get at them. I rarely saw that happen at any match I attended in the UK in the '80s.
> 
> *Was it "class war"? No* it wasn't that open, it was more often knife-in-the-back stuff *by* them, *on* us, because it was easy to get yourself a piece in the front of the paper, maybe even front page, if you could write something denunciatory about fan behaviour, even if that meant exaggerating the fuck out of what had actually happened.
> 
> ...



So not exactly backing up your buddies views. Admittedly its only your personal experiances, so not conclusive, but its a small step forward isnt it?

Maybe you want to rethink your stance old chap?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 21, 2012)

Ash Mahay said:


> The sort of post Id expect from you VP. Short on relevance & lots of drivel.
> 
> 
> 
> Ive told you before, forget your semantic arguments, pick your own labels if it makes you happy, but you knew (& ignored) what I meant.


 
Ah, I forgot, *I* make "semantic arguments". Except that they're only "semantic arguments" to you.




> Dress it up anyway you want. You tried to come on all big.


 
Projection. I didn't do anything of the sort, as anyone reading the post I linked to will be able to discern.




> & does that change what I said (or address anything relevant to the issue)?


 
It calls your probity into account.



> Anything to say about the actual issues or will it be just more backtracking on your tough guy act?


 
What "tough guy" act? Come on, you're so keen on evidence, provide some for this claim, and not selectively edited, the whole quote, if you don't mind![/quote][/quote]


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 21, 2012)

Ash Mahay said:


> Which has zero to do with the point under discussion & therefore doesnt back it up.


 
It has _everything_ to do with the point under discussion. In fact it was the very first point (of two) that i made:



> Firstly, a lot of the reporting was by news reporters who were a) not part of football culture and didn't understand the way fans were treated, the way we were herded like cattle etc and b) used to talking to the police and using them as their primary source - questioning and criticising them is the fast path to getting yourself cut off from those sources.


 
Floundering and trying to take the thread down with you.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 21, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Your first lines. Let's look shall we?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
You're just making semantic arguments, with your tough guy act.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 21, 2012)

Ash Mahay said:


> Which has zero to do with the point under discussion & therefore doesnt back it up.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Compared to what you're pulling? Not at all.




> So not exactly backing up your buddies views. Admittedly its only your personal experiances, so not conclusive, but its a small step forward isnt it?


 
*Open* class war would have left sports desks unable to function in reporting a sport that was the lifeblood of many dailies and sundays, which is why I said "it wasn't that open". That doesn't mean it wasn't there and in-your-face in the newsroom if you happened to not be of the same class or sporting preferences as most of the journos you worked amid.



> Maybe you want to rethink your stance old chap?


 
Why would I want to do that?


----------



## Ash Mahay (Sep 21, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Ash, I don't take* any* answer at face value, not from you, or from anyone else.



I think, based on your history, you are very selective & a lot more likely to base your views & actions on personality than you possibly know & would be willing to admit.

My observation is your posts show a lot of inconsistancy, in that regard.



> And if you're wondering what I mean about your opinions, I mean your manifestation of a type of argument from authority, i.e. you were at Hillsborough, therefore you know better, whatever the related subject,  than someone who wasn't there.



Which I have not done & wouldnt do, not least because, being on the ground, while giving you first hand experiance of some elements also leaves you with an over crowded view of other elements.

I will confess it does make a man more emotional on the subject though, especially when faced with bs & games playing & I repeat both of us have seen that in this thread.


----------



## Ash Mahay (Sep 21, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> You're just making semantic arguments, with your tough guy act.



I wasnt the guy who pulled the cannon fodder line lol


----------



## Ash Mahay (Sep 21, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Compared to what you're pulling? Not at all.



Maybe Ive given you to much credit?



> *Open* class war would have left sports desks unable to function in reporting a sport that was the lifeblood of many dailies and sundays, which is why I said "it wasn't that open". That doesn't mean it wasn't there and in-your-face in the newsroom if you happened to not be of the same class or sporting preferences as most of the journos you worked amid.


 
No, but your answer did say (admittedly only on personal experiance) that it isnt true that virtually every reporter was a public school bully with an agenda (& in fact its worse now) which was the original claim made.



> Why would I want to do that?



Because youve just basically stated the original claim was at least an exageration, despite arguing for the person who made that claim & while arguing against someone who merely asked for proof one way or the other?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 21, 2012)

Ash Mahay said:


> I think, based on your history, you are very selective & a lot more likely to base your views & actions on personality than you possibly know & would be willing to admit.
> 
> My observation is your posts show a lot of inconsistancy, in that regard.


 
Mmmm, you're a discursive psychologist with psychoanalytic pretensions now. Good for you!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 21, 2012)

Ash Mahay said:


> I wasnt the guy who pulled the cannon fodder line lol


 
No, you're just the person who deliberately took it out of context.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 21, 2012)

Ash Mahay said:


> Maybe Ive given you to much credit?


 
Ah, here we go, the denigration again, the not-so-subtle putting-down.




> No, but your answer did say (admittedly only on personal experiance) that it isnt true that virtually every reporter was a public school bully with an agenda (& in fact its worse now) which was the original claim made.


 
No, it didn't. There's nothing about "virtually all" in the original claim. You're mixing up what you want to see on the screen (because without it, your "argument" disintegrates) with what's actually there.



> Because youve just basically stated the original claim was at least an exageration, despite arguing for the person who made that claim & while arguing against someone who merely asked for proof one way or the other?


 
And here you are, constructing another edifice.


----------



## goldenecitrone (Sep 22, 2012)

I'm still trying to digest this. Just how rotten these people are. Even when you feel it in your gut, you still don't really want to believe it. And still we live amongst them.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 22, 2012)

goldenecitrone said:


> I'm still trying to digest this. Just how rotten these people are. Even when you feel it in your gut, you still don't really want to believe it. And still we live amongst them.


 
Our history is rife with examples of power protecting itself at the expense of ordinary people. Why assume Hillsborough would be any different? Look at the _Marchioness_ disaster (Thames riverboat sinking). Coordination between the emergency services was poor, so the next day you heard about how pissed most of the people on the boat were, not about how "the man" fucked up. The Bradford fire was another one where there were attempts to lay blame on the fans rather than on the club and the not-so-brilliant emergency response. Even the Establishment consensus on Peterloo was "they brought it on themselves" when all other accounts concurred on the militia having gone off on one. Even the Establishment response to the de Menezes, Tomlinson and Duggan murders all sing from the same hymn-sheet.
And you know what? It's not going to change until that "Establishment" isn't there any more to guide how events like this are represented to the public-at-large.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 23, 2012)

Straw back in the shit:



> Jack Straw was embroiled in a fresh row over the Hillsborough disaster yesterday after new documents revealed he had made up his mind within five weeks of coming to power that there was no need for a fresh inquiry into the tragedy.
> 
> A "restricted" memo to Tony Blair in June 1997 outlined Mr Straw's fears that the public would refuse to accept that verdict from the Government – and said that it had to come from an independent source instead.
> 
> Mr Straw wrote to the then Attorney-General, John Morris: "I am certain that continuing public concern will not be allayed with a reassurance from the Home Office that there is no new evidence. I therefore propose that there should be an independent examination of the alleged new evidence by a senior legal figure." At the end of June 1997, he met Lord Justice Stuart-Smith, appointed to lead the review. He told him that his officials had already looked at the case and concluded that "there was not sufficient evidence to justify a new inquiry".


 
Effectively setting up a ringer inquiry and that he then effectively lied to the house about what he was up to, lied directly to the victims families - and delayed the truth coming out for a further 15 years. The rat. And his justification today is that the judge he appointed did exactly what Straw told him to, found what he was implicitly steered towards finding. The double rat.


----------



## Corax (Sep 23, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Effectively setting up a ringer inquiry and that he then effectively lied to the house about what he was up to, lied directly to the victims families - and delayed the truth coming out for a further 15 years. The rat. And his justification today is that the judge he appointed did exactly what Straw told him to, found what he was implicitly steered towards finding. The double rat.


Any thoughts on what the motivation was? The 'new' facts recently released have landed the police in the shit, but not so much the government. Was Straw simply protecting his attack dogs?


----------



## where to (Sep 23, 2012)

as the Sun once asked, "what is the point of Jack Straw?".  looking back on his time in office, can anyone think of anything positive he achieved for the left, (or even the centre)?


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 23, 2012)

Corax said:


> Any thoughts on what the motivation was? The 'new' facts recently released have landed the police in the shit, but not so much the government. Was Straw simply protecting his attack dogs?


I don't think there was any particular specific motivation beyond being Home Sec and a politician and so pissing in the same pot as the police chiefs.

Sheila Coleman has an important piece building on the gaps and failings in the panels report here as does my mate DB here.


----------



## nino_savatte (Sep 24, 2012)

where to said:


> as the Sun once asked, "what is the point of Jack Straw?". looking back on his time in office, can anyone think of anything positive he achieved for the left, (or even the centre)?


 
One thing: he went after Pinochet. That is all.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 24, 2012)

He didn't! He let him go. It was him who made the decision that he be released on health grounds. He had the case dropped into his lap by Garzon's actions and he was lukewarm and against his extradition from the start.


----------



## nino_savatte (Sep 24, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> He didn't! He let him go. It was him who made the decision that he be released on health grounds. He had the case dropped into his lap by Garzon's actions and he was lukewarm and against his extradition from the start.


 
Only because he was pressured to do so (most of the pressure was being applied by Thatcher's cronies). I'm not defending or apologising for Straw but there was an interesting doco about this a few years ago and Straw actually came out of it looking surprisingly good.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 24, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> He was a cunt for doing The Word but Terry Christian has a really good blog piece here


Cheers for the heads up - been following him on twitter since you mentioned his blog post, I would never have imagined him to be so passionate about social justice issues TBH.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 24, 2012)

Jack Straw, a weaselly politician? Shurely not!

Close family friend to Mandelson's spear carrier-turned-Russian oligarch Benjamin Wegg-Prosser, too.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 26, 2012)

Kelvin Mackenzie has instructed his lawyers to pursue syp for an apology for putting him through decades of vilification. For real.

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/steerp...-south-yorkshire-police/#.UGLmDPzyu7Y.twitter


----------



## Voley (Sep 26, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Kelvin Mackenzie has instructed his lawyers to pursue syp for an apology for putting him through decades of vilification. For real.
> 
> http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/steerp...-south-yorkshire-police/#.UGLmDPzyu7Y.twitter


Absolutely fucking unbelievable. I can only hope he has to stand up in court and argue why he's right. Any decent lawyer would tear him apart.


----------



## Favelado (Sep 26, 2012)

Wh..

What do you say?


----------



## Favelado (Sep 26, 2012)

Freaking internet connection playing up. I posted the same thing twice so now I have to edit one post and try and say something interesting here.

Hmmmm....

Mackenzie should have some idea of how to manage news stories. This suggests he has lost the plot completely.

He is on record as saying the story came from "a Liverpool press agency", so he can't just change his version to blaming it all on SYP. He's got to admit he's a cunt to himself to get out of this. He can't.


----------



## cesare (Sep 26, 2012)

Venal bastard.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 26, 2012)

Favelado said:


> Freaking internet connection playing up. I posted the same thing twice so now I have to edit one post and try and say something interesting here.
> 
> Hmmmm....
> 
> ...


 
He's a former editor of a national newspaper. Of course he believes he can get away with changing his story in spite of all the evidence there happens to be lying around showing that he's a lying shitcunt.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 26, 2012)

cesare said:


> Venal bastard.


 
I reckon it's worse than venality, it's a craven and cowardly attempt to deflect righteous opprobrium and, let's face it, righteous hatred from people he repeatedly maligned for more than 20 years.
If Kelvin McKenzie were on fire, I wouldn't even kick him, just in case I doused any of the flames.


----------



## cesare (Sep 26, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> I reckon it's worse than venality, it's a craven and cowardly attempt to deflect righteous opprobrium and, let's face it, righteous hatred from people he repeatedly maligned for more than 20 years.
> If Kelvin McKenzie were on fire, I wouldn't even kick him, just in case I doused any of the flames.


That what I meant by the "bastard" part (I agree). Plus he's chancing on some comp.


----------



## Gingerman (Sep 26, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> If Kelvin McKenzie were on fire, I wouldn't even kick him, just in case I doused any of the flames.


I wouldn't even waste me piss on him


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 26, 2012)

I wonder if he's going to offer to pay for the victims families to take the same legal actions as him towards the syp the sun and himself?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 26, 2012)

Gingerman said:


> I wouldn't even waste me piss


 
A can of Zippo fuel, on the other hand...


----------



## Gingerman (Sep 26, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> A can of Zippo fuel, on the other hand...


I'd bring the marshmellows


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Sep 26, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> If Kelvin McKenzie were on fire, I wouldn't even kick him, just in case I doused any of the flames.


We could write a story about how he'd deliberately set himself on fire, and headline it "The Truth".


----------



## friedaweed (Sep 26, 2012)

He's got some fucking nerve the cunt. He's one of a very few number of people I wish evil things on.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Sep 26, 2012)

Remember him saying "I wasn't sorry then and I'm not sorry now" only a few years ago.


----------



## Fedayn (Sep 26, 2012)

Article I wrote for a leftist paper up here



> On Wednesday 12 September, the beginning of the full disclosure of what really happened at Hillsborough started.
> Some of the details that many of the families, Liverpool supporters, other football fans and friends we’d long ‘known’ were released.
> I sat in work in tears reading some of the Hillsborough Independent Panel’s findings…
> I cast my mind back to that day. On 15 April 1989 I went to an FA Cup semi-final in Birmingham. Everton won 1-0 against Norwich – I should have been bouncing home, another Wembley Cup final. Sadly though, news from the other semi-final at Hillsborough cut that celebration rather short. The horror of what happened that day at Hillsborough is well known to many.
> ...


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Sep 26, 2012)

sleaterkinney said:


> Remember him saying "I wasn't sorry then and I'm not sorry now" only a few years ago.


Yes, exactly.


----------



## shaman75 (Sep 26, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Kelvin Mackenzie has instructed his lawyers to pursue syp for an apology for putting him through decades of vilification. For real.
> 
> http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/steerp...-south-yorkshire-police/#.UGLmDPzyu7Y.twitter


 
Let's hope it takes at least 23 years for that to come through.


----------



## elbows (Sep 27, 2012)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-19733681



> *A Conservative councillor who called the Hillsborough report "politically correct" and the Stephen Lawrence inquiry a "joke" is facing an investigation into his conduct.*
> Roger Taylor's remarks to Bradford charity Just will be probed by the Calderdale Council Standards Committee.


 


> The charity was set up to fight racism and civil injustice.
> It said it received Mr Taylor's email after publishing an article on its website supporting the Hillsborough families' call for the Chief Constable of West Yorkshire Police, Sir Norman Bettison, to resign and face criminal prosecution.
> 
> In the email, released by the charity, Mr Taylor said of the Hillsborough report: "Are you telling me that this report is not overloaded with politically correct language rather like the Stephen Lawrence 'enquiry' (a joke in itself) was?"
> ...


 


> Ratna Latchman, director of Just, defended the decision to publish the email.
> She said: "As long as he was criticising us as an organisation we never went public with it but when as an elected representative he felt that he could undermine two public inquires that's the point at which we were very clear it was in the public interest to expose this man."


----------



## ddraig (Sep 27, 2012)

brilliant! more frothing tory twats telling the plebs what for! 
give em enough rope


----------



## Fedayn (Sep 30, 2012)

*Hillsborough: Families' fury at spin operation*

Senior Labour MPs worked to dampen criticism when second inquiry was denied in 1998

Horrible cunts


----------



## cesare (Sep 30, 2012)

From Fed's link:



> Ms Kennedy, now Labour's candidate for Merseyside's police commissioner,



Bitch now trying to get elected to the OB. Couldn't make it up.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 30, 2012)

And Kilfoyle of course having rode to prominence on the back of the Hillsborough families was later caught taking tickets for free stuff from the Sun - and he also entered the police commissioner race.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 30, 2012)

And good on the Independent for covering this every sunday since the panel reported - everyone else seems to have wandered off.


----------



## cesare (Sep 30, 2012)

Opprobrium for the info


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Oct 4, 2012)

Local paper in Lincoln has published this report today containing statements from some off duty Lincs coppers who went to the game at Hillsborough that day:

http://www.thisislincolnshire.co.uk...rough-heroes/story-17027305-detail/story.html

DC Dawson nearly died after being crushed against the fence, and nearly lost his friends too. The report says:




> ...according to Dawson it appeared the police on duty were oblivious to the situation and slow to react.
> "At one point I saw some police officers at the front facing us and it appeared to me that they didn't realise what was happening. By this time the fear in myself and for Karen increased dramatically. I was screaming at the police officers to get the fencing down..."


 
Amazingly, despite all this, DC Dawson says it wasn't the fault of the police, and blames the media for taking photos when they could have been helping victims.



> On reflection, DC Dawson and the unnamed officer believed that the situation was unprecedented and that emergency services did as much as they could.
> Dawson said: "From what I saw of the police operation and the way the officers responded, the way it became apparent to them at the front of the terracing, they did everything they could as did other emergency services and members of the public."


 
So even after nearly fucking dying, this copper is still defending his colleagues in the police and trying to place the blame elsewhere. Amazing really.


----------



## Waltonian (Oct 4, 2012)

Hard to comprehend how he could reach such an opinion after what he had experienced.
The statement is dated 16 May .just a month after the tragedy. would be very interesting to hear his opinion now. 

IMO Whatever comes out over the next couple of years,there are fans who believe there is no way some police did not know that fans were in great distress,the fans were screaming at them to open the gates. even the Liverpool goalkeeper could hear them.  they left it too late before they took action.
How they reacted after the fans spilled onto the pitch is another stage of Hillsborough.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 4, 2012)

> *Chief Constable Announces Retirement Date*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
http://www.westyorkshire.police.uk/news/chief-constable-announces-retirement-date


----------



## sleaterkinney (Oct 4, 2012)

DaveCinzano said:


> http://www.westyorkshire.police.uk/news/chief-constable-announces-retirement-date


On full pension, the cunt.


----------



## Waltonian (Oct 4, 2012)

Trevor Hicks from Keighley lost two daughters at the Hillsborough tragedy. He's given his reaction of Sir Norman Bettison's retirement:
"We are glad he's realised his position is untenable. However I'm determined that he doesn't escape his just deserts. I'll make sure he's stripped of his knighthood and his fellowship of Liverpool (John Moores) University. He should leave with nothing, like he did the families." 
​​


----------



## Waltonian (Oct 5, 2012)

SIR NORMAN Bettison should not be allowed to retire, he should be sacked, Hillsborough families demanded today.
Mr Bettison, chief constable of West Yorkshire Police, last night announced his decision to retire in March in the wake of revelations by the Hillsborough Independent Panel about his role in the aftermath of the disaster.
He is the most senior police officer involved with South Yorkshire Police’s discredited Hillsborough operation that is still in service.
Margaret Aspinall, chair of Hillsborough Family Support Group, said: “I’m delighted. But he is a disgrace. He has had a couple of weeks of going through a little stress, while we have been through hell for 23 years.”
She said Mr Bettison's announcement reminded her how Ch Supt David Duckenfield and his underling Supt Bernard Murray escaped disciplinary charges through Duckenfield's retirement.
The pair were responsible for opening the gate that led to the crush that claimed 96 lives at Hillsborough.
The Independent Police Complaints Commission is investigating Mr Bettison's role in the cover-up after the 1989 disaster.
In a statement he said: “Recent weeks have caused me to reflect on what is best for the future of policing in West Yorkshire and I have now decided to set a firm date for my retirement of March 31 2013.”
“I hope it will enable the Independent Police Complaints Commission to fully investigate allegations that have been raised about my integrity. They need to be fairly and fully investigated and I welcome this independent and formal scrutiny.”
Trevor Hicks, president of HFSG, said: “I am pleased that he has finally realised his position is untenable.
“This is typical of senior officers avoiding responsibility, dipping out of disciplinaries, and leaving with a big fat pension, a knighthood, and an honorary fellowship from Liverpool John Moores University.
“Over the next six months we will be undertaking every endeavour to press for Bettison to be sacked.
“If he thinks he can evade justice by jumping ship, he is mistaken. “He is the first of the new scalps, he will be the first of many.”
He urged the IPCC to conclude their investigation “in time to spoil his Christmas”, adding: “It will be a travesty if he is allowed to retire like Duckenfield and Murray.”
Garston and Halewood MP Maria Eagle, who has long maintained Mr Bettison was part of a “black propaganda unit” after the disaster – a claim denied by Mr Bettison – said: “The IPCC and the prosecuting authorities need to make clear quickly that this will have no impact on their investigations.
“I never thought somebody with the background he has and the amount of questions he has over him should have been in such a senior position without having to answer for what has gone on.”
Meanwhile the HFSG and the Hillsborough Justice Campaign have condemned a decision by John Moores University to wait until the outcome of the IPCC investigation before deciding whether to strip Mr Bettison of his fellowship

Read More http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-news/local-news/2012/10/05/norman-bettison-to-retire-from-west-yorkshire-police-but-hillsborough-families-say-he-should-be-sacked-100252-31970392/#ixzz28Qt2TfbI


----------



## ddraig (Oct 5, 2012)

even after all this they have the front, connections and confidence and mostly lack of shame to ride it out
disgusting people


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 5, 2012)

Bit late notice but:

_HJC requires volunteers_

_The Hillsborough Justice Campaign has contacted Spirit of Shankly regarding the Sun`s attempt to regain a foothold in the City with a substantial offer in conjunction with the Morrisons supermarket chain this weekend._

_To counteract any attempts, the HJC are coordinating direct action at the Morrisons supermarket in Maghull. The HJC would greatly appreciate the presence of volunteers to hand out leaflets to customers at the main entrance of the supermarket on Saturday 6th October at 10.30am._

_For any further details email hillsboroughjusticecampaign@hotmail.co.uk; or phone 07782 365203_
_@spiritofshankly_


----------



## laptop (Oct 5, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> the Sun`s attempt to regain a foothold in the City with a substantial offer in conjunction with the Morrisons supermarket chain


 
Morrisons is now owned by the Co-op, isn't it?


----------



## Callie (Oct 5, 2012)

DaveCinzano said:


> http://www.westyorkshire.police.uk/news/chief-constable-announces-retirement-date


I dont understand how taking retirement would help the IPCC? other than saving them the paperwork of disciplinary/sacking. Does being retired stop that from happening or does it just protect pension and other assorted gains?

Does it mean that the investigation can actually be hindered as Bettison cannot be questioned directly? or do the IPCC not reallly actually talk to the people concerned?


----------



## Waltonian (Oct 6, 2012)

Callie said:


> I dont understand how taking retirement would help the IPCC? other than saving them the paperwork of disciplinary/sacking. Does being retired stop that from happening or does it just protect pension and other assorted gains?
> 
> Does it mean that the investigation can actually be hindered as Bettison cannot be questioned directly? or do the IPCC not reallly actually talk to the people concerned?


It was the same tactic Duckenfield used Callie. under internal investigation yet allowed to retire at 46 on medical grounds.
It would of been a massive admission of guilt for the Police to have sacked Duckenfield over Hillsborough. so Duckenfield was allowed retire on a full pension.no idea how much it is now but it was 25K in 97.?.end of investigation.
It is confusing. I have read retirement today will not stop any investigation and that may well be right but that is not the only issue.
I am no legal expert but i assume any person sacked from the Police force for the charges he may face will also loose full pension rights. If he is allowed to retire before any investigation then his pension will not be affected by any disciplinary action.as i say i am no legal expert. just my opinion.

EDIT.
Mr Bettison was chief constable of Merseyside between 1998 and 2004, and will be entitled to an annual pension estimated at £88,000 – two thirds of his £134,000 salary when he left.
Merseyside Police Authority chairman Cllr Bill Weightman said the force had no choice – but if convicted of any crime in relation to the Hillsborough disaster an application could be made to the Home Office to strip Mr Bettison of 65% of his pension

Read More http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-news/local-news/2012/10/06/merseyside-taxpayers-will-pay-norman-bettison-s-annual-88-000-pension-100252-31977916/#ixzz28VoPOiPf


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 8, 2012)

> SOUTH Yorkshire Police officers baton-charged Hull City fans during the Yorkshire derby at Sheffield Wednesday on Saturday after being taunted with chants about the Hillsborough disaster, supporters have claimed.
> 
> Trouble flared on the concourse at half-time when City supporters chanted “murderers” and “Justice for the 96” at officers policing the match, fans said.
> This led to clashes with police and a number of arrests and several fans were ejected from the ground.
> ...


 
http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news...er-taunts-over-hillsborough-tragedy-1-5002480


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 8, 2012)

bettison's west yorks thugs did the same to the everton away lot at the league cup game the other week.

(oh yeah, at leeds)


----------



## Kaka Tim (Oct 9, 2012)

.........


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 9, 2012)

Kaka Tim said:


> http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news...er-taunts-over-hillsborough-tragedy-1-5002480
> 
> Apparently South Yorkshire Cops didn't like the Hull City fans criticsing their policing practices and waded in with batons.


See above.


----------



## xes (Oct 9, 2012)

Every set of fans should be chanting at them. Let coppers show their own behaviour for what it really is. On show for all to see.


----------



## Teaboy (Oct 9, 2012)

laptop said:


> Morrisons is now owned by the Co-op, isn't it?


 
No, thats Somerfield.  Morrisons is independent of any other supermarket brand I believe.


----------



## Waltonian (Oct 9, 2012)

Wherever there is money or power there will be corruption, how you deal with this corruption is the problem, if there is not the will to root out corruption then these people will go on to hold powerful positions,they will abuse this power and destroy many decent lives. 
Would a corrupt powerful person wish to have decent law abiding colleagues at his side or would he prefer to see a culture of promoting people who will cover each other backsides ?
Michael Mansfield tried to bring this corruption to account a few years before Hillsborough, the authorities preferred to look the other way.
Mansfield also highlighted the connection between Hillsborough and Orgreave.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012/apr/12/hillsborough-battle-orgreave?CMP=twt_gu


----------



## Waltonian (Oct 9, 2012)

meard said:


> #586 agreed,but Mr Mansfield QC did not succeed and this is not the first time.
> I have the uptmost respect for Mr Mansfield,but he is also being very,very well paid for fighting a losing battle against a totally bent,loyal and inpenetrable establishment.
> Incredibly you fail to mention the case of Stephen Lawrence and Mr Mansfield represented the main aggrieved parties in this case.
> Look beyond this to John Yates-Burrill,cash for peerages,Operation Tempura/Cayman Islands(Bridger and Polaine) the murder of Danny Morgan,the alleged corruption cases of Clark and Drury and just perhaps you will get the bigger picture.
> ...


Thanks for the offer but no thanks, I would rather think positive and keep my posts relevant to the thread, Hillsborough.


----------



## Maltin (Oct 9, 2012)

meard said:


> Have a good weekend.


 you do know its Tuesday, right?


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 10, 2012)

Callie said:


> I dont understand how taking retirement would help the IPCC? other than saving them the paperwork of disciplinary/sacking. Does being retired stop that from happening or does it just protect pension and other assorted gains?
> 
> Does it mean that the investigation can actually be hindered as Bettison cannot be questioned directly? or do the IPCC not reallly actually talk to the people concerned?


 
From the Police Oracle:



> IPCC confirms that misconduct issues cannot be levelled against officers who have left the service
> 
> Sir Norman Bettison is unlikely to face any disciplinary action as a police officer - even if the IPCC chooses to investigate claims made about his conduct in the light of the Hillsborough disaster.
> 
> ...


 


> The IPCC is currently conducting a review into the entire Hillsborough case and will decide “in the next couple of weeks” whether it will proceed with any investigation.
> 
> If criminal conduct was to be found, it would be referred to the CPS – in which case action against former officers would still be possible.
> 
> ...


----------



## Fedayn (Oct 12, 2012)

1 step closer



> *Hillsborough police crime probe*
> 
> The police watchdog and director of public prosecutions are to launch investigations into possible crimes committed in the wake of the Hillsborough disaster, it has been announced.
> The Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC) said a large number of serving and former officers would be investigated over what happened on the day of the tragedy in 1989, and during the alleged cover-up afterwards.


----------



## Fedayn (Oct 12, 2012)

And more



> The IPCC said both serving and former officers would be investigated over the deaths of 96 Liverpool fans in 1989.
> They will consider if individuals or corporate bodies should be charged.
> A "large number" of current and former officers now face investigation over claims made in a report on the Hillsborough disaster, the IPCC said.


 
And.....



> Sir Norman Bettison, currently Chief Constable of West Yorkshire, has been referred to the IPCC over allegations that he provided misleading information after the tragedy.
> It has also been revealed that he is also under investigation for allegations that he "attempted to influence the decision-making process of the West Yorkshire Police Authority in connection with the referral that they had made", Ms Glass said.


----------



## Waltonian (Oct 12, 2012)

*Hillsborough: Statement by Deborah Glass, Deputy Chair of the Independent Police Complaints Commission*

It is now for the Independent Police Complaints Commission and other organisations to try to complete that picture.
Since the report was published, the IPCC has been undertaking a thorough review of it and has also begun to examine the 450,000 pages of supporting evidence to identify what conduct, by named or unnamed police officers, requires investigation.
While the review was ongoing we received referrals from West Yorkshire Police Authority in relation to Sir Norman Bettison, South Yorkshire Police in relation to the events before, during and after 15 April 1989, and West Midlands Police in relation to their role in the investigation of events.
We have considered all of this and determined there are a number of matters which require investigation by the IPCC.
These are:
· The amendments to statements – who ordered it, who knew about it, who was involved in the process, and was pressure put on individual officers?
· The allegations that misleading information was passed to the media, MPs, Parliament and Inquiries in an apparent attempt to deflect blame from the police on to the fans.
· The actions of police officers after the disaster, including the questioning of next of kin about alcohol consumption, the checking of blood alcohol levels and the undertaking of Police National Computer checks on the dead and injured;
· The role of West Midlands Police and those who led that investigation into the disaster.
All of these matters will be subject of an independent investigation by the IPCC. We will be setting up a dedicated Hillsborough team to carry this out.
However, in addition, there are other matters where we believe we will have a role to play.
Ninety-six men, women and children died as a result of Hillsborough. The Attorney General must decide whether to apply to the High Court to quash the original inquest verdicts and seek new ones. The Director of Public Prosecutions has announced today that he will review the evidence.
The IPCC will work with the Director of Public Prosecutions, and any Coroner appointed to hear fresh inquests, to carry out any further investigation that may be required before or after any new inquests are held, and identify the appropriate body to investigate any individual or entity we cannot.
I must stress the scope of our work is not yet clear – and we do not underestimate the size of our task.
We do not yet know how many officers or retired officers fall to be investigated for the various matters we have identified, how many are still serving or still alive. Work will continue to identify individuals and their circumstances, and what potential offences require investigation. We can investigate both criminal and misconduct offences after an officer has retired, though retirement prevents any misconduct sanction. We are continuing to review the underlying documentation in the report and other conduct matters may come to light.
An important part of our work will be liaising with the families and other interested parties. We have made contact with them, and will set out the initial scope and projected timing, and keep them in touch with progress. Justice demands that we do whatever is possible to investigate culpability for any offence that may have been committed, and to do so thoroughly and fairly. The families have already waited for twenty-three years. I want to give them my assurance that we will do everything in our power to investigate these serious and disturbing allegations with the careful and robust scrutiny they deserve."
​Read More http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-news/local-news/2012/10/12/hillsborough-statement-by-deborah-glass-deputy-chair-of-the-independent-police-complaints-commission-100252-32019291/#ixzz295zEBHa0​


----------



## friedaweed (Oct 12, 2012)

It truly is great news. We've waited a long time for this.It's hard to be happy and not be angry but it is good news.
The original inquests must be binned now. The whole house of cards is folding in. It's fantastic that it's finally turning for the families and rightly so. It must be like finally being able to breath after years of feeling like you're drowning.

It's great for the city too.


----------



## Waltonian (Oct 12, 2012)

friedaweed said:


> It truly is great news. We've waited a long time for this.It's hard to be happy and not be angry but it is good news.
> The original inquests must be binned now. The whole house of cards is folding in. It's fantastic that it's finally turning for the families and rightly so. It must be like finally being able to breath after years of feeling like you're drowning.
> 
> It's great for the city too.



Yeah great news. I know we should never take it for granted but just cant see how they can refuse to squash inquest verdict and order new inquests now .
Will no doubt take a few years to see all this through but every effort should be made to speed up the judicial system, a few guilty people have passed away over the years and evaded justice.
It is important the likes of Duckenfield has his day in court and not be allowed to delay on technicalities.


----------



## friedaweed (Oct 12, 2012)

Waltonian said:


> * Duckenfield *


Him and that cunt with his truth rag brought to justice would be the a happy day.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 12, 2012)

Public recognition that they have to. No faith in the IPCC.


----------



## Callie (Oct 12, 2012)

Theres always hope though eh?


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 12, 2012)

Callie said:


> Theres always hope though eh?


In the IPCC? No.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 12, 2012)

The IPCC are not a fit body to investigate this.


----------



## Callie (Oct 12, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> In the IPCC? No.


I meant a bit more generally, otherwise you wouldnt give a shit.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 12, 2012)

Callie said:


> I meant a bit more generally, otherwise you wouldnt give a shit.


Existentially, then damn right there's hope - might be parceled out and forced by us (and that's half the victory) but there's always hope

People giving a shit =hope. As i think you said


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 13, 2012)

Guess which city will be taxed to pay for bettison's 90 grand a year pension. Go on, guess.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 13, 2012)

58 could have lived. Fucking hell. That's 17 more than the panel suggested.



> As many as 58 victims of theHillsborough disastermight have been saved if theemergency serviceshad responded better, far more than estimated by the recent report into the 1989 tragedy.
> 
> The Hillsborough Independent Panel said last month that 41 of the 96Liverpoolfans who died could have survived if the response had been quicker. However, further analysis of the medical documentation has led to that figure being revised sharply upwards, according to sources close to the families' campaign for justice.


----------



## Waltonian (Oct 13, 2012)

Absolutely disgraceful. Did anyone even try, Tony  Edwards  the only ambulance man to get on the field to help the injured told Trevor Hicks. Lives could have been saved.
How did those pathologists and the Coroner get it so wrong. i would think them incompetent if they got a few cases wrong, and maybe they could claim it's down to opinion but 58 people could have been saved and they make a judgement of 3 .15 cut off at the inquest. many people are under investigation at the moment ,i hope nobody allows these medical experts to get away with 58 wrong autopsies..they should also face investigation.


----------



## William of Walworth (Oct 14, 2012)

To add to butchers' link above, David Conn's coverage of all this has been brilliant throughout IMO.

Here's his latest.


----------



## weepiper (Oct 16, 2012)

Attorney General wants the inquest verdicts quashed



> Dominic Grieve QC announced the move in Parliament in his response to the Hillsborough Independent Panel's report published on 12 September.
> The report revealed 41 fans could potentially have been saved.
> The victims' families have always challenged the original inquest verdict of accidental death.
> Mr Grieve said his consideration of the evidence was far from over, but he was taking the exceptional step of indicating he must apply to the High Court for new inquests to be held on the basis of the evidence he has already read.
> ...


 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-19960279


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 16, 2012)

Excellent. Had to happen. Every single one as well.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 16, 2012)

...and this was on partial review alone. That people had to wait this long...


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Oct 16, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> The IPCC are not a fit body to investigate this.


 
Anyone's who's interested in the effectiveness or otherwise of the IPCC should watch this film (50 mins) on how they (mis)handled the case of Sean Rigg, who was killed by the police in Brixton police station.


Oops - can't seem to embed. Link here - copy and paste and remove the space I've put in:
http://vimeo. com/46132509


----------



## Waltonian (Oct 16, 2012)

Liverpool MP Steve Rotheram said today's move by Attorney General Dominic Grieve to apply for fresh inquests for the 96 victims of the Hillsborough disaster "marks one of the biggest steps forward in the fight for justice for the families in 23 years'
"The undeniable fact is that the original inquest was unsound and this application, if successful, will mean that evidence will be able to be heard after the 3.15pm cut off imposed by the original Coroner in the 1989 inquests," he said.
"For the first time in over two decades, all the evidence can now be reviewed into the disaster and potentially a new verdict recorded on the death certificates of the deceased.
"At long last, the full horror of Hillsborough will be on the public record alongside the names of the people and the organisations that are accountable for what happened." 
He went on: "The families’ heartache has been well documented but what is less well known is that some families have refused to pick up the death certificates of their loved ones who died on that day.
"I made clear when I became an MP that for as long as I represented Liverpool and the continued fight for truth and justice for the 96, I would never accept the verdict of accidental death on the death certificates.
"Today’s announcement provides us with the possibility for different verdicts which the families have always believed should have reflected the unlawful killing of their loved ones."
Mr Rotheram added he was "confident that the British judicial system will not allow one of the greatest injustices of the 20th century to perpetuate any longer".
​Read More http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-news/local-news/2012/10/16/hillsborough-pursuit-of-fresh-inquests-for-96-victims-is-huge-step-towards-justice-says-liverpool-mp-steve-rotheram-100252-32042268/#ixzz29StOotVk​


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 16, 2012)

It doesn't _yet_ mean the 3.15 cut off will be removed - it should effectively mean that though.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 16, 2012)

This is the first _material victory_ for a long time - the panel was the key to this of course, but it was what followed that counts.


----------



## Waltonian (Oct 16, 2012)

*Live updates: Hillsborough families & South Yorkshire Police give evidence to Home Affairs Committee from 2.45pm*

 


http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/live...ffairs-committee-from-2-45pm-100252-32042609/


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 16, 2012)

Live text updates from the families and SYP evidence to the HAC here. (this is now btw)


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 16, 2012)

Crompton (head of SYP) talking - seems to be saying lack of IPCC _let_ this happen.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 16, 2012)

Compton: blah blah going forward, different culture now


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 16, 2012)

Compton: couple of minutes on helping the police with trauma.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 16, 2012)

> Public confidence in IPCC investigations - can't compel officers to give interviews. Will you be granting IPCC right to interviews? David Crompton: "Even if I was to grant an interview, I can't force people to say anything. I will take that one away and talk with the IPCC with whom I'm in regular contact."


Is that a yes or a no? It's starting again already.

"even if" (i.e no i won't).


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 16, 2012)

Sheila Coleman on as rep of HJC+Anne Williams:  

Pushing hard against SYP involvement in anything, forcing Crompton to have to agree.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 16, 2012)

SC only there by luck - not invited by committee. That says it all.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 16, 2012)

Trevor Hicks: "We believe there is an element of Freemasonry involved. Something we hadn't considered before is whether the closed ranks of Freemasonry [were at play]."


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 16, 2012)

Hillsborough Family Support Group repped by Lord Falconer. Party to Straw's 97 whitewash. I can't believe it.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 16, 2012)

Trevor hicks:  no report needed. Nice of him.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 16, 2012)

Trevor Hicks: "Margaret and Jenny met with Jack Straw about a week ago. He unreservedly apologised for the rigour of investigation not being to the level of what the Independent Panel has been."


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 16, 2012)

Oh god:

Committee moving on to a final matter now, not related to Hillsborough. Families have left the room with that pledge from Keith Vaz that the Home Affairs Committee will keep on top of monitoring the progress of Hillsborough investigations from here on in


----------



## cesare (Oct 16, 2012)

Vaz


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 16, 2012)

*LEAVE IT WITH US*. Last people in the country you should try and bullshit with this.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 16, 2012)

> *Soho Skeptics*
> 
> At Soho Skeptics we put on regular talks, panels and debates about interesting things. We are an alliance of Little Atoms, The Pod Delusion,Skeptic Magazine, Skeptics in the Pub and independent writers and film-makers, applying critical thinking and enlightenment values to the issues of the day.


 


> *Chris Atkins - “Media manipulation, from Hillsborough to Leveson”  11/7/12 7PM*
> 
> W1G 0JA London | View map
> Covering a range of topics from bad press coverage of Hillsborough to a deconstruction of tabloid hacks’ evidence to the Leveson Inquiry,...


 
http://www.eventbrite.com/org/2815557902


----------



## sleaterkinney (Oct 22, 2012)

The names of 1,444 former and serving police officers have been passed to the Independent Police Complaints Commission as part of its investigation into the Hillsborough disaster

It's being debated in parliament now
http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Main/Player.aspx?meetingId=11538


----------



## sleaterkinney (Oct 22, 2012)

More here:
http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/2012...t-findings-from-4-15pm-today-100252-32081463/


----------



## sleaterkinney (Oct 22, 2012)

Jeremy *unt up now


----------



## Fedayn (Oct 22, 2012)

That cunt should be apologising for the role his party, his predecessors and notably Thatcher played in the lies and the smears.


----------



## Waltonian (Oct 22, 2012)

A lot of very strong speeches today. Maira Eagle on Bettison, can only say WOW.
Clive Betts looked under a lot of strain.His argument was irrelevant. the ground had no valid safety certificate.
He looked to be desperate to push entire blame for the tragedy onto the police. wasnt he Labour leader of Sheffield council at the time of the tragedy.
FA must have hoped it would all go away.todays debate left them in doubt,that is not going to happen.
Be nice if Mckenzie can face criminal or civil action.we will see.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 23, 2012)

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/201...-yorkshire_n_1999074.html?utm_hp_ref=uk-crime


> *Hillsborough Probe Powers Call In Wake Of Fresh Claims Against South Yorkshire Police*
> 
> *PA/The Huffington Post UK*  |   Posted: 22/10/2012 07:51 BST Updated: 22/10/2012 07:51 BST
> 
> ...


----------



## elbows (Oct 23, 2012)

Calls for Patnick to lose his knighthood:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-20036787


----------



## elbows (Oct 24, 2012)

Bettison bites the dust then.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-20067716


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 24, 2012)

Amazing that what looks like forcing his hand now is politicians parasiting on the familes struggle to gain support for the PCC campaigns. Even in this they are still being told to get stuffed.


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Oct 24, 2012)

elbows said:


> Bettison bites the dust then.
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-20067716


Good riddance.

Although doesn't the fact he is no longer a serving plod mean the IPCC can't get at him?


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 24, 2012)

Brixton Hatter said:


> Good riddance.
> 
> Although doesn't the fact he is no longer a serving plod mean the IPCC can't get at him?


They couldn't face _misconduct_ charges under existing rules, but i think that the IPCC have been forced to say that they would present any evidence of _criminal _behaviour they would pass it on to the CPS who obv can do former officers. So, yes and no - they can't do him for stuff short of criminality - that's how i read their statement anyway.


----------



## elbows (Oct 24, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Amazing that what looks like forcing his hand now is politicians parasiting on the familes struggle to gain support for the PCC campaigns. Even in this they are still being told to get stuffed.


 
Has anyone mentioned drawing a line under it yet?


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 24, 2012)

_Moving forward._


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 24, 2012)

> In a statement Bettison rejected claims that he had boasted of smearing fans. He said: "I refute the report of a conversation 23 years ago. The suggestion that I would say to a passing acquaintance that I was deployed as part of a team tasked to 'concoct a false story of what happened' is both incredible and wrong. That isn't what I was tasked to do, and I did not say that."


 
Where and how did you refute these claims?


----------



## friedaweed (Oct 24, 2012)

Great news 


> Margaret Aspinall, chairwoman of the Hillsborough Families Support Group, said: "I'm absolutely delighted he's gone but as far as I am concerned he should have been sacked.
> "I would now like to know what payments and pension he's going to get.
> "Any financial benefits should be frozen until the outcome of the investigation into the cover-up."


 
I hope they do find a way of going after this smug cunt legally.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 24, 2012)

IPCC statement:



> ...We note Sir Norman's public statement that he intends to co-operate with our investigations. It should be noted we can and, in this case, will investigate both criminal offences and misconduct matters after an officer has retired or resigned as it is in the public interest to do so. Retirement or resignation precludes any internal misconduct sanction as once an individual leaves the police service there is no opportunity to take disciplinary action. Retirement or resignation does not prevent criminal prosecution should the investigation identify criminal offences, including misconduct in a public office.


 
http://www.ipcc.gov.uk/news/Pages/pr_241012_hillsboroughbettison.aspx


----------



## weepiper (Oct 25, 2012)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-20079755


----------



## Sharo (Nov 6, 2012)

Please could you take a few minutes to read this

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-20224726

Then could you please sign this petition.

https://submissions.epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/40925

Kind Regards

Sharo.


----------



## ddraig (Nov 6, 2012)

welcome Sharo
that is the very least they could do


----------



## Sharo (Nov 6, 2012)

Thank you for the welcome ddraig.

I just hope that Anne gets her wish.


----------



## Fedayn (Nov 8, 2012)

Bettison resigned after learning he might be sacked.....


----------



## Teaboy (Nov 8, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> Bettison resigned after learning he might be sacked.....


 
Christ, is there no decency left in the man?


----------



## Sharo (Nov 8, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> Bettison resigned after learning he might be sacked.....


 
Doesn't surprise me.


----------



## audiotech (Nov 13, 2012)

A reminder of the epetition.

More details here on Kevin Williams, who died age 15 at Hillsborough.


----------



## Fedayn (Nov 18, 2012)

Could they sink any lower???



> Police officers sexually harassed a vulnerable Hillsborough survivor and threatened others with criminal charges if they did not alter statements, according to fresh allegations into the conduct of the authorities following the tragedy.
> One officer pestered a young woman for sex only weeks after the disaster, while other witnesses were reportedly threatened with jail if they did not change accounts that portrayed the police in a negative light


----------



## Voley (Nov 18, 2012)

Good grief. Words fail me.


----------



## purenarcotic (Nov 18, 2012)

Speechless.  Fucking scum.


----------



## audiotech (Nov 19, 2012)

audiotech said:


> A reminder of the epetition.
> 
> More details here on Kevin Williams, who died age 15 at Hillsborough.


 
Bump, nearly at the 100,000 mark. Sign and share.




> Hillsborough mum Anne Williams has revealed she is suffering from terminal cancer.Mrs Williams, 59, who lives in Newtown, Chester, has campaigned tirelessly for justice for more than two decades because her 15-year-old son Kevin was among the 96 Liverpool FC fans who perished as a result of the 1989 disaster...please let's help to get her son's case heard.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 19, 2012)

Anyone watching the IPCC doc on BBC1 now. I bet it puts the fears of the families to rest.


----------



## laptop (Nov 21, 2012)

audiotech said:


> Bump, nearly at the 100,000 mark. Sign and share.


 
103,383 103,384


----------



## DaveCinzano (Nov 29, 2012)

Curious:



> Sir Norman Bettison was allegedly recorded on CCTV with another man trying to sell a "large quantity" of stolen platinum wire to Sheffield firm Johnson Matthey on August 11, 1987, John Mann, the Labour MP for Bassetlaw, claimed.
> 
> ..."The information provided is extraordinary, and it is of great concern that these claims have only emerged now," said Mr Mann.
> 
> ...


 
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...-tried-to-sell-stolen-platinum-MP-claims.html


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 29, 2012)

I think Mann is being played here - just a feeling.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 2, 2012)

From the Star of all places: 



> But we have discovered key evidence surrounding the disaster, in which 96 fans died, seems to have vanished.
> 
> Files belonging to the top officer sent in to investigate South Yorkshire Police’s handling of the tragedy have never been located.


 


> The statements of current Metropolitan Police Commissioner Bernard Hogan-Howe also seem to have disappeared.
> 
> The 54-year-old, who at the time was an off-duty inspector who helped in the aftermath of the disaster, has told us he provided statements for the first inquiry.
> 
> ...


----------



## William of Walworth (Dec 2, 2012)

I know this isn't 100% Hillsborough relevant, but campaigners seem to be getting somewhere with their efforts to achieve some publicity for Orgreave related injustices -- those miners were treated like shit by the South Yorks Police (and by Co Durham Police as well it seems)

Here's the Orgreave Truth and Justice Campaign's e-petition.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 10, 2012)

Some good news - the application to quash the inquest verdicts may well happen this afternoon, if not it will happen very soon. This will allow new inquests to be held.


----------



## friedaweed (Dec 19, 2012)

High Court today hopefully to quash the original inquests and bring justice one step closer.

We might even have a xmas number 1

It's only a quid  Go on you know it makes sakes sense.


Amazon
http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=ntt_srch_drd_B00ADC8SOK/277-8002676-0288551?ie=UTF8&field-keywords=The%20Justice%20Collective&index=digital-music&search-type=ss


itunes
https://itunes.apple.com/gb/album/he-aint-heavy-hes-my-brother/id581613125

hmv
http://hmv.com/hmvweb/displayProductDetails.do?sku=644106


----------



## Voley (Dec 19, 2012)

friedaweed said:


> High Court today hopefully to quash the original inquests and bring justice one step closer.


This will make my day. I don't know how they could come to any other conclusion tbh.


----------



## Voley (Dec 19, 2012)

I bought the single btw. I haven't even bothered to d/l it as I don't want to hear it particularly but a Xmas No 1 would be some more good publicity - the more that can be done to keep the issue fading from people's minds the better.


----------



## friedaweed (Dec 19, 2012)

NVP said:


> I bought the single btw. I haven't even bothered to d/l it as I don't want to hear it particularly but a Xmas No 1 would be some more good publicity - the more that can be done to keep the issue fading from people's minds the better.


I'm not a fan of that song myself but i bought it for my Bluenose dad and set it as his ringtone  I've been buying it instead of sending xmas cards for each of my siblings as well.

All the moneys going to the campaign rather than Simon Scowels arse pocket innit


----------



## Voley (Dec 19, 2012)

I haven't even heard it. I don't like the original or practically any of the musicians involved with it tbh.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Dec 19, 2012)

High Court quashes original inquest verdict according to BBC Sheffield's James Vincent:



> *James Vincent* ‏@*BBCJamesVincent*
> The High Court has quashed the original verdicts into the deaths of fans at #*Hillsborough*


https://twitter.com/BBCJamesVincent/status/281362928035315713


----------



## Fedayn (Dec 19, 2012)

NVP said:


> This will make my day. I don't know how they could come to any other conclusion tbh.


 
Consider your day made. At long last maybe, just maybe, we can start to give the families and the dead a bit of justice.


----------



## TruXta (Dec 19, 2012)

Thank fuck for that.


----------



## Voley (Dec 19, 2012)

Fedayn said:
			
		

> Consider your day made. At long last maybe, just maybe, we can start to give the families and the dead a bit of justice.



Another important step. Police conducting the new inquiry mind.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Dec 19, 2012)

Transcript of the judgment will be available tomorrow from the Judicial Office.

http://www.judiciary.gov.uk/


----------



## friedaweed (Dec 19, 2012)

This truly is a great day for the families

Personally I'm so pleased for Anne Williams.


----------



## purenarcotic (Dec 19, 2012)

The start of proper justice at long last I hope.


----------



## sojourner (Dec 19, 2012)




----------



## sleaterkinney (Dec 19, 2012)

Great news today and hopefully they will get justice.


----------



## Fedayn (Dec 23, 2012)

JFT96 gets the number 1 single. Bit of pre xmas cheer.


----------



## Gingerman (Dec 30, 2012)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20872924
 Tory cunt who helped smear Liverpool supporters at Hillsborough dead....


----------



## sleaterkinney (Jan 1, 2013)

More stuff on the west midlands police here:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2013/jan/01/hillsborough-families-west-midlands-police?CMP=twt_gu


----------



## brogdale (Jan 1, 2013)

sleaterkinney said:


> More stuff on the west midlands police here:
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2013/jan/01/hillsborough-families-west-midlands-police?CMP=twt_gu


 
Looks like there was one force with 'leadership' even more bent than SYP in the 1980s....and they were asked to undertake the _"independent investigation"_ for the Taylor report.
**Shakes head and walks away**


----------



## William of Walworth (Jan 2, 2013)

That's an excellent report sleater, was going to post the link myself. Plenty of new detail there. David Conn really does his research and knows his stuff


----------



## elbows (Feb 16, 2013)

Victims families look like they are going to try and sue MacKenzie for malfeasance!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2013/feb/16/hillsborough-families-sue-kelvin-mackenzie


----------



## brogdale (Feb 17, 2013)

elbows said:


> Victims families look like they are going to try and sue MacKenzie for malfeasance!
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2013/feb/16/hillsborough-families-sue-kelvin-mackenzie


 
Great.


----------



## belboid (Feb 22, 2013)

South Yorks continues to have a complete twat for a chief constable 

http://www.thestar.co.uk/news/local/hillsborough-police-chief-under-fire-in-new-truth-row-1-5440008


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 22, 2013)

Jesus, it's never ending - well Crompton, you're on the list now. Well done.


----------



## Voley (Feb 26, 2013)

Yep, their charm offensive continues.







http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-21586453


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 7, 2013)

Slowly slowly:

Lawyer leaves job after slur on Hillsborough victims' families he was supposed to be representing



> A lawyer who ridiculed the families of Hillsborough victims when he was supposed to be representing them has left his job as Liverpool deputy coroner.
> 
> Doug Fraser caused outrage after it emerged he said some families were “wanting their 15 minutes of fame” and branded others “hotheads”.
> 
> ...


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 25, 2013)

Kelvin Mackenzie is getting paid by the taxpayer to do a review of the papers tonight - think it must be on the news channel.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 27, 2013)

John Glover, long time Justice campaigner and father of Ian Glover who was one of those who could have been saved, died this monday. People like this are the proper heroes.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 27, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Kelvin Mackenzie is getting paid by the taxpayer to do a review of the papers tonight - think it must be on the news channel.


Skynews/murdoch are back paying him to talk shite tonight.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 28, 2013)

IPCC says Bettison does have case to answer. Good.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 28, 2013)

I wish it did, what is says though is that he would have had a case to answer if still employed by the police. But he's not so he doesn't. That's it. He's got away with it again.



> While it was evident Sir Norman made no attempt to prevent the referral happening, the IPCC investigation concluded that he attempted to manipulate the public perception of the referral process for his own self interest.
> 
> As a result the IPCC concluded Sir Norman had a case to answer for discreditable conduct and abuse of authority, breaches which, if proven in a disciplinary hearing, would amount to gross misconduct as they would justify dismissal.
> 
> However as Sir Norman left the police service in October 2012 he cannot face a disciplinary hearing in which the evidence could be tested. Instead the IPCC is publishing its findings for the public to judge.


 


> "While we cannot bring this case to misconduct proceedings, we can publish the evidence and our conclusions, so that the public can judge for themselves. This case should also serve as a salutary reminder to chief officers everywhere of how much public confidence in policing is damaged when the conduct of leaders is called into question. "


 
Investigation here (pdf)


----------



## cesare (Mar 28, 2013)

I suppose his pension is protected from sanctions


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 28, 2013)

Yep - and guess who pays it. Liverpool taxpayers.


----------



## cesare (Mar 28, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Yep - and guess who pays it. Liverpool taxpayers.


That is fucking shameful. And I notice from your above post that the IPCC are basically doing a Pontius Pilate on it and letting the "public decide". Well what if the public decide they want him prosecuted, eh.


----------



## ymu (Mar 28, 2013)

Doesn't have to be serving to be done for misconduct in public office, does he? Is this down to the limits of the powers of the IPCC, or does it also include what the CPS could do him for if they felt so inclined?


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 28, 2013)

ymu said:


> Doesn't have to be serving to be done for misconduct in public office, does he? Is this down to the limits of the powers of the IPCC, or does it also include what the CPS could do him for if they felt so inclined?


The CPS have the option of misconduct in public office yes, can't see them bothering.

And just to clarify what this concerns - this is not regarding his actions in the aftermath of hillsborough, but his actions last year after the independent panel reported. The former investigation is ongoing. This one is about him interfering with his referal to the IPCC - and it doesn't find him guilty, the misconduct hearing would have to decide that (another reason the CPS is unlikely to act on this).


----------



## ymu (Mar 28, 2013)

Thanks.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 28, 2013)

ymu said:


> Thanks.


Another reason for not expecting CPS intervention in this case is that if the primary investigation into the actions of hundreds of coppers actions in the immediate aftermath comes back with similar conclusions as this one they would face pressure to take the same action against hundreds of coppers or ex-coppers at once. They are never going to do that.


----------



## ymu (Mar 28, 2013)

Well, we have to make sure they have no option, I guess.

The arrests over Sean Rigg's death (well, inquest) give me a tiny bit of hope that they mght sacrifice a few of the most tainted lambs to try and restore public confidence.

Also, badly as many of them behaved, the primary pinnable responsibility is not on the grunts, it's on management.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 28, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> The CPS have the option of misconduct in public office yes, can't see them bothering.
> 
> And just to clarify what this concerns - this is not regarding his actions in the aftermath of hillsborough, but his actions last year after the independent panel reported. The former investigation is ongoing. This one is about him interfering with his referal to the IPCC - and it doesn't find him guilty, the misconduct hearing would have to decide that (another reason the CPS is unlikely to act on this).


 
Yes, sound clarification; thanks.

The IPCC report does however clearly show Bettison for the manipulative, scheming, self-serving masonic turd that he was; though I fully appreciate that does little to bring a sense of justice to the families. As one Lawyer for the campaign said on R5, this outcome is unsatisfactory in that a 'meal has been cooked  that no-one can eat'.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 28, 2013)

brogdale said:


> Yes, sound clarification; thanks.
> 
> The IPCC report does however clearly show Bettison for the manipulative, scheming, self-serving masonic turd that he was; though I fully appreciate that does little to bring a sense of justice to the families. As one Lawyer for the campaign said on R5, this outcome is unsatisfactory in that a 'meal has been cooked that no-one can eat'.


Here's a list of other stuff that he's currently under investigation for - long list.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 28, 2013)

From that list:



> Other startling revelations currently under investigation by uPSD and the Liverpool Echo include serious allegations concerning the propriety and accuracy of the CV presented to Merseyside Police Authority when Bettison applied for the post of Chief Constable. If proved, they could lead to MPA clawing back salary and benefits, including his pension.


----------



## ymu (Mar 28, 2013)

Hadn't seen this before:



> There is the remote possibility, of course, that the *Johnson Mathey* CCTV film might be found resting alongside the CCTV tapes that were mysteriously ‘stolen’ from the locked Police Control Room at Hillsborough stadium on the night of the disaster where 95 people had already died with hundreds more injured or severely traumatised. uPSD have now placed Bettison at the stadium between 1.00am and 4.30am on that night but no-one can actually acount for his movements or say what he was actually supposed to be doing there.


 
What other burglary, with an obvious suspect placed at the scene in the middle of the night, would not have resulted in prosecution? This is fucking ridiculous.

Send. Him. Down.

On the plus side, he would be a very cheap sacrifice given all the messes of their own making the police are dealing with at the mo.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 28, 2013)

Page 4 of the IPCC findings:



> It is clear from the evidence provided by both Sir Norman and  the Chief Executive of the Authority that, in fact, the Police Authority required Sir Norman to resign on 24 October 2012, and it was not Sir Norman’s wish to go at this time.


 
So we have the WYPA telling him he had to go to save _their_ face if the IPCC found he should face misconduct charges? Looks like that that to me.


----------



## ymu (Mar 28, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Here's a list of other stuff that he's currently under investigation for - long list.


Very long, and a shed load of mad stuff linked within. Thanks for that. And blimey.


----------



## ymu (Mar 28, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Page 4 of the IPCC findings:
> 
> 
> 
> So we have the WYPA telling him he had to go to save _their_ face if the IPCC found he should face misconduct charges? Looks like that that to me.


He may have been arrogant enough to think he could beat the charges, given the FTS debacle (in the article you linked). He seems to think he's untouchable. How he could have reached such a conclusion is, of course, a complete mystery.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 28, 2013)

It never ends - guess who is paying his legal fees, the west yorkshire taxpayer.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 2, 2013)

uPSD really got their teeth into Bettison now:



> uPSD have, for some time, been interested in the credentials (Sir) Norman Bettison presented to Merseyside Police Authority when applying for the post of Chief Constable of Merseyside Police in September 1998. A redacted copy of the CV, plus a raft of other useful and connected documents, can be viewed on the stupendous Hillsborough Independent Panel website by clicking here (pdf).


 


> The very first point that attracted our attention was the crucial fact that he made no mention of Hillsborough whatsoever on that CV and, indeed, commences his career history some six months later, in October 1989, as a Superintendent in the Traffic Division of the thoroughly discredited South Yorkshire Police. There is no mention, whatsoever, of the role Bettison played in the Wain “Black Ops” Unit or his role as Chief Constable Peter Wright’s eyes and ears at the Taylor Inquiry, and his close liaison with the legal team acting for SYP during those hearings.
> 
> Another signal moment for uPSD was when a whistleblower came forward, who was a colleague of Bettison’s after he joined the equally disgraced West Yorkshire Police force in May 1993, and provided the following information:
> 
> “You have uncovered a hornets nest by drawing  attention to Norman Bettison’s application form for the Chief Constable of Merseyside. As many officers serving at the time will know, it is packed with outright lies and exaggerations. You must get this added to the investigation into his conduct by the IPCC. You must also get this cut and pasted on to the website and given wider circulation in the Yorkshire Post. There are dozens of people serving and retired who will say it is lie after lie.  The man is an out and out liar, end to end. Whatever good he is supposed to have done, it is now clear that it is all built on lie after lie.


 
Loads - and i do mean loads - more at the link above.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 2, 2013)

Tmw:

Hillsborough: Never Forgotten
Wed Apr 3, 9-10pm, BBC2



> Leading up to the first anniversary of the Hillsborough Disaster since the Hillsborough Independent Review published it’s findings, Hillsborough - Never Forgotten describes the impact on the survivors and families of Hillsborough of living under the shadow of a lie for a generation.
> 
> In a poignant and thought-provoking film, survivors, relatives of the deceased and people who attended to the victims on the day describe what it’s like to live in a world pervaded by an ‘absence of truth’. Where instead of finding compassion, the victims of the disaster were held to be responsible for their own deaths and those grieving for them were derided for self-pity, a legacy they have lived with for 24 years.
> 
> The Bishop of Liverpool, The Right Rev James Jones, leader of the team that uncovered the truth, gives an extended inside account of the investigation and how he and colleagues pieced together their remarkable expose of deceit and deception. And the victims and their families describe the impact the new revelations have had on their lives.


----------



## TruXta (Apr 2, 2013)

Thanks for the updates butchers. Feel ill reading some of this stuff.


----------



## weepiper (Apr 4, 2013)

https://twitter.com/ScottTwigg1/status/319552541157384192

Bernard Ingham's reply to a letter of complaint, from 1996. The stepson of the complainant found the letter last weekend.







Utter, utter filth.


----------



## TruXta (Apr 4, 2013)

I saw that on a LFC site. I was horrified.

_Tanked up yobs_
_Reasonable people outside Merseyside_
_Uncomfortable truths_

It's vile.


----------



## cesare (Apr 4, 2013)

Fucking hell.


----------



## treelover (Apr 4, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Tmw:
> 
> Hillsborough: Never Forgotten
> Wed Apr 3, 9-10pm, BBC2


 
For some reason, I thought that was a repeat, will watch on Iplayer.


----------



## ddraig (Apr 4, 2013)

wow! the front


----------



## Fedayn (Apr 5, 2013)

Kelvin Mackenzie bumped from The Telegraph after 2 days.


----------



## ymu (Apr 6, 2013)

Oh, very good. Well done Telegraph readers!


----------



## newbie (Apr 6, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> uPSD really got their teeth into Bettison now:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


that's a very impressive site.  Only registered in December last, according to whois, but very well presented and with what appears to be top notch research.  I'm slightly surprised they've not yet been sued, mind.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 9, 2013)

Nice one:

Norman Bettison stripped of Liverpool John Moores University fellowship



> Former chief constable Sir Norman Bettison has been stripped of the honorary fellowship given to him by Liverpool John Moores University after a report into his role in the Hillsborough cover up.
> 
> Last month the Independent Police Complaints Commission found Mr Bettison has a case to answer for “discreditable conduct and abuse of authority” in the wake of last year’s Hillsborough revelations.


 
Also,



> We are pleased to announce that the monument commissioned by HJC will be unveiled on Sunday in a ceremony organised in conjunction with Liverpool City council.


 
Not sure where yet...will edit in.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 10, 2013)

The monument will be at "at the bottom of St John’s Garden, near the corner of William Brown Street, in Liverpool City Centre."


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 11, 2013)

Just a reminder prompted by this uninformed article yesterday - Thatcher insisted on Hillsborough disaster fund recipients not being exempt from having their benefit payments docked as a result of the charity payments - despite their being many contemporary precedents.


----------



## Dogsauce (Apr 11, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> this uninformed article yesterday.


 

"....the all-seat magnificence of the game as it is today."
"....a great Prime Minister who did so much for the beautiful game."
Christ.
There must be a real art, and real effort, that goes into being as wrong as the Mail.

We should be grateful for the more than ten-fold increase in admission prices, the pay-TV monopoly, collapsing clubs, huge debts, soulless new build stadiums located away from public transport, more and more shitty adverts and entire clubs becoming rich men's playthings.  I bet they wish society was even more like this.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 12, 2013)

Art exhibition commomorating Hillsborough opens at Museum of Liverpool 


> On Sunday a new monument honouring the victims and survivors of disaster will be unveiled.
> 
> And on Monday the annual memorial service will be held at Anfield.
> 
> ...


----------



## goldenecitrone (Apr 14, 2013)

See that lying sack of shite Kelvin MacKenzie has been caught lying again. What a surplus cunt this sad excuse for a human being really is. 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2013/apr/08/kelvin-mackenzie-libel-claim-daily-mail


----------



## ymu (Apr 15, 2013)

> RedLiverbirdLou
> 
> Today is the first anniversary that we all know the real truth about Hillsborough, thinking of them all today. #J4T96
> 
> Retweeted by WSMFamilyLaw


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 15, 2013)

Anyone go the monument unveiling?


----------



## TruXta (Apr 15, 2013)

I'm off to Liverpool this coming Saturday, will try to see the memorial exhibition.


----------



## weepiper (Apr 16, 2013)

South Yorkshire Police compiled a dossier of MPs who spoke against the conduct of the police during the Hillsborough debate, with their contact details

http://www.firmmagazine.com/news/3165/Exclusive


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 18, 2013)

Anne Williams has just died. A true fighter and someone more deserving of a great send off than you know who.


----------



## Fedayn (Apr 18, 2013)

RIP Anne.


----------



## TruXta (Apr 18, 2013)

RIP.


----------



## Streathamite (Apr 18, 2013)

RIP


----------



## Favelado (Apr 18, 2013)

Rest in Peace Anne.


----------



## cesare (Apr 18, 2013)

RIP


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 18, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Anne Williams has just died. A true fighter and someone more deserving of a great send off than you know who.


 
Had the privilege of meeting Anne a few times and heard her speak. Her dignity and fight were an inspiration. She done her lad proud.

RIP Anne


----------



## Stash (Apr 18, 2013)

Has Kelvin MacKenzie become unemployable? We can only hope so.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/greenslade/2013/apr/18/kelvin-mackenzie-dailytelegraph

Nice one, Alan Hansen.


----------



## William of Walworth (Apr 18, 2013)

brogdale said:


> IPCC says Bettison does have case to answer. Good.


 
From that Liverpool Echo story though, at first skim it looks like he can't be prosecuted because he's not in the force any more ...


----------



## William of Walworth (Apr 18, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Anne Williams has just died. A true fighter and someone more deserving of a great send off than you know who.


 
Oh, just picked up on this after brogdale's post. What a fighter she was -- massive respect.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Apr 18, 2013)

RIP, glad she lived to see the verdict overturned.


----------



## Gingerman (Apr 18, 2013)

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/hillsborough-campaigner-anne-williams-remembered-1838984
Nice tribute to her


----------



## ymu (Apr 18, 2013)

Stash said:


> Has Kelvin MacKenzie become unemployable? We can only hope so.
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/greenslade/2013/apr/18/kelvin-mackenzie-dailytelegraph
> 
> Nice one, Alan Hansen.





> The Mail gave no explanation and MacKenzie said he was asked by the investors backing his online TV channel, Sports Tonight, wanted him to "focus on it full time".


 
That can't be going well, with football boycotting him. 

Anyone know?


----------



## goldenecitrone (Apr 18, 2013)

Gingerman said:


> http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/hillsborough-campaigner-anne-williams-remembered-1838984
> Nice tribute to her


 
Indeed. RIP Anne.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 18, 2013)

Gingerman said:


> http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/hillsborough-campaigner-anne-williams-remembered-1838984
> Nice tribute to her


Fair play to Reade, but he's just wrong that it was Anne Williams alone fighting 22 years ago.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 18, 2013)

RIP


----------



## brogdale (Apr 18, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Anne Williams has just died. A true fighter and someone more deserving of a great send off than you know who.


 
Well said.

That she was there on Monday shows her determination to the end.


----------



## redsquirrel (Apr 19, 2013)

RIP


----------



## friedaweed (Apr 19, 2013)

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/live...sborough-and-inspired-a-city-100252-33195830/

Truly inspiring mother

Glad she saw the tide turn before she joined her Kevin.


----------



## friedaweed (Apr 19, 2013)

Lille piggys at it still



> LIVERPOOL MP Steve Rotheram has written to fellow MPs warning them their names have appeared on a “sinister” list compiled by South Yorkshire Police following a Hillsborough debate.
> 
> Read more: Liverpool Echo http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-news/local-news/2013/04/18/steve-rotheram-mp-demands-answers-over-dossier-compiled-by-south-yorkshire-police-after-hillsborough-debate-100252-33193117/#ixzz2QsEXoAeo​


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 22, 2013)

(Only papers interested in this seem to be the times and the star)

Phil Scraton says (again) that key documents are still missing



> All known records were said to have been handed over to the panel but Prof Scraton believes there are “significant” gaps.
> 
> That includes the work of teams set up within South Yorkshire Police just after the 1989 disaster to present the force’s now-discredited “case”.
> 
> ...


 
Not sure he really expects a "light to be shone" this week, and it's probably too late to pressure them into doing so given how long they've been looking at this, but we'll see...or not.


----------



## Favelado (Apr 22, 2013)

There's a whole new stalling process going on isn't there? We had that euphoric period last autumn but it seems that the same old vested interests are regrouping.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 22, 2013)

Favelado said:


> There's a whole new stalling process going on isn't there? We had that euphoric period last autumn but it seems that the same old vested interests are regrouping.


It's what they do mate, they are so used to operating that way and getting away with it.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 22, 2013)

HJC not happy at Suarez using donations as get out of jail card. Not happy at all. Can't use them as cover.

Well out of order.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 25, 2013)

Today: the preliminary inquest about where and when to hold the new inquest opens - live reporting here. The IPCC seem to be arguing their own investigations need to wait until the inquests are done, and the other lot are saying they can't do the inquests until the IPCC reports.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 25, 2013)

Favelado said:


> There's a whole new stalling process going on isn't there? We had that euphoric period last autumn but it seems that the same old vested interests are regrouping.


 
C4 news:



> Police Federation wants Hillsborough inquests on hold until after police investigation - could be years. Families mutter "disgrace".


----------



## Favelado (Apr 25, 2013)

I'm just a wimpy social democrat by nature, getting closer and closer every day to to picking up a bayonet and becoming a violent revolutionary.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 25, 2013)

Police basically say they want a 2-3 year min delay.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 25, 2013)

Police fed also say they may well exercise right to silence once in the box when the inquest finally starts.


----------



## Favelado (Apr 25, 2013)

http://www.liverpoolfc.com/news/latest-news/hillsborough-investigation-update



> The IPCC also said a small number of organisations and individuals had been resistant to disclosure of documents and the body is 'seeking further legal advice' to try to resolve these issues.


----------



## laptop (Apr 25, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Police fed also say they may well exercise right to silence once in the box when the inquest finally starts.


 
I don't think the Fed have thought this through.

The prospect of a front page consisting of a gallery of all the cops who gave "no comment" non-evidence... not good for the Force. Not good at all.

So what's this bluff-card in play for?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 25, 2013)

laptop said:


> I don't think the Fed have thought this through.
> 
> The prospect of a front page consisting of a gallery of all the cops who gave "no comment" non-evidence... not good for the Force. Not good at all.
> 
> So what's this bluff-card in play for?


Just delay delay delay.

Anyway, jan 2014 set for start date.


----------



## Favelado (Apr 25, 2013)

Breaking: Lord Justice Goldring says full #*Hillsborough* inquest will NOT await outcome of the other investigations.”
*@DebiMcMillan96​*


----------



## sleaterkinney (May 20, 2013)

Panorama is on bbc 1 now.


----------



## Brixton Hatter (May 20, 2013)

New evidence - if I follow this correctly - off duty copper who gave mouth to mouth to Kevin Williams (who later died). There is now proof that the mouth to mouth happened after 3.30pm and that Kevin Williams was alive well after 3.15pm. The copper (can't remember name) has now complained to IPCC about how his evidence was handled/ignored.


----------



## brogdale (May 20, 2013)

Good job done by Peter Marshall; the last few sentences simply summed up the whole thing.


----------



## butchersapron (May 20, 2013)

Generally a well done program, so i hate to make what may look like a petty point, but he ended by saying that powers that be "allowed a cover-up to happen" - they didn't, they _took part_ in the cover up. That makes so much difference as it gets rid of the idea of the state as honest broker who simply had cops run rings round it and explains why there was and still i such mistrust of all in authority.


----------



## Brixton Hatter (May 20, 2013)

Spot on - and not a petty point to make in the circumstances.


----------



## JimW (May 21, 2013)

Just watched the Panorama and agree that's a fair point from butchers. Marshall's not followed the logic of his own revelations about directions to those conducting the various inquiries and so on.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 5, 2013)

Second preliminary hearing in the process of new inquests starts today. Home Office refusing to release funding manpower or other resources to the new inquests/investigation for the last 3 or so months. New Inquests to be heard by a jury under section two of the European Human Rights. Overview of progress in september. Family say obstruction and deliberate stringing along taking place and the timetable laid out earlier (already criticised for being needlessly extended and oen to manipulation and delaying tactics) is now under serious threat.

Edit: oh yeah, the police lawyers have told the hearing that Independent Panel who produced the report that this thread is about was biased against them and in favour of the family and working to a hidden agenda. They are never going to give up are they? Scumbags.


----------



## sojourner (Jun 5, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> They are never going to give up are they? Scumbags.


 
Nope


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 7, 2013)

The Star - surprisingly, the only paper still digging away at this - seem to have a story on the way about the police withholding files from the independent panel then lying about doing so.


----------



## Favelado (Jun 7, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> The Star - surprisingly, the only paper still digging away at this - seem to have a story on the way about the police withholding files from the independent panel then lying about doing so.


 
I'm hoping David Conn will get back on this because he did seem to really care. It's time for yet another redoubling of efforts and I'm sure everyone associated with LFC will do their best to keep this on the agenda. I'm worried about politicians and media parking the whole thing again though.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 14, 2013)

Official complaint made against Crompton about his 'lying' email...


> South Yorkshire PCC Shaun Wright said he has received a complaint regarding the content of emails sent by South Yorkshire chief David Crompton.
> Mr Crompton sent a message to his senior staff last year which appeared to suggest a campaign group representing families of those who died was not telling the full truth about the 1989 tragedy.
> The email read: ''_One thing is certain - the Hillsborough Campaign for Justice will be doing their version ... in fact their version of certain events has become 'the truth' even though it isn't!!_
> _''I just have the feeling that the media 'machine' favours the families and not us, so we need to be a bit more innovative in our response to have a fighting chance otherwise we will just be roadkill._''
> http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/201...hief-email-probe_n_3443077.html?utm_hp_ref=uk


 
...and that email was sent in 2012.

So what has the PCC done about this complaint? Yes, that's right, got another copper to investigate:-


> Mr Wright said the chief constable of Cambridgeshire, Simon Parr , will now investigate.




Meanwhile Crompton bleats that he's already apologised, hasn't he?


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 14, 2013)

Well spotted. There is out for the families, no one they can appoint...and who will fund this new one and who won't get funding or with  ridiculous terms


----------



## William of Walworth (Jun 14, 2013)

Late to catch up with this, but some excellent points above.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 25, 2013)

Hmmmm

Hillsborough documents found by West Midlands Police 



> Documents relating to the Hillsborough stadium disaster have been found in storage at a police headquarters.
> 
> West Midlands Police, which investigated South Yorkshire officers' conduct after the 1989 deaths, said it had uncovered "two items of material".
> 
> ...


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 25, 2013)

makes a change from losing evidence.

what arse covering is hoped to be gained by this one wonders


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 30, 2013)

The Star still keeping at it when others have melted away:

POLICE CHIEF SIR NORMAN BETTISON COPS MORE FLACK OVER HILLSBOROUGH



> SIR Norman Bettison is facing fresh questions over Hillsborough – after it emerged he begged his staff to “deflect” a story that put the “spotlight” on him.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jul 4, 2013)

Related:



> *Ex-West Yorkshire police chief referred to IPCC over Lawrence allegations*
> 
> Sir Norman Bettison is referred to IPCC amid fears officers tried to discredit members of murdered teenager's family


http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk-news/2013/jul/03/ex-police-chief-ipcc-lawrence-allegations?CMP=twt_gu


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 5, 2013)

Little more: Norman Bettison 'had smear file' on anti-racist campaigner




> A man decorated for his community work has been officially informed that he was the potential victim of an alleged smear campaign orchestrated by the former police chief Sir Norman Bettison, as he prepared to publicly back the Stephen Lawrence family's campaign for racial justice.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 12, 2013)

Significant IPCC update (pdf). They've discovered another 55 amended police statements that were _covered up in the revelation of the cover up. _That now means 219 amended statements in total so far.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 20, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Anne Williams has just died. A true fighter and someone more deserving of a great send off than you know who.


 
Indonesian reds today:


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 23, 2013)

It never fucking ends:

*David Conn*@david_conn
New DPP Alison Saunders will decide on any Hillsborough prosecutions. In 1996 she advised against granting Anne Williams a new inquest.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 23, 2013)

Really worrying stuff today. The police have just effectively been told no charges.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 23, 2013)

The legal testing of 3.15 - she threw it out. This is never going to end. At least it can help show the strings over 20 years from _i do this and i get this in return_. Rotten, rotten, rotten.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 24, 2013)

Missed this on sunday (Jonathan Corke deserves a proletarian medal of honour btw) :

Police boss ‘held back files on 96’ 



> But we can reveal Mervyn Jones, below, who led the external police investigation at the time, failed to hand over files in his possession.
> 
> Despite being approached about the documents by the panel (HIP), Mr Jones did not pass on the 16 books known as “policy files”.
> 
> ...


----------



## ddraig (Jul 25, 2013)

*Sheila Coleman Hillsborough Justice Campaign interview*

by artist taxi driver
not had a chance to watch it myself yet


----------



## laptop (Aug 20, 2013)

FFS:



> * Revealed: Hillsborough police tried to raid £12m victims’ fund *
> Senior officers attempted to use money from a fund created for victims of tragedy to buy microwaves, gym equipment and even a holiday home


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 20, 2013)

How surprising to see Norman 'want to buy some platinum' Bettison sniffing around for 2000 quid. The utter contempt they held the victims and their families in is staggering.

(And when i see this and the OTT stuff on the greenwald thread about the noble art of journalism being under threat i think, what world are you living in? One where the newspapers turned their backs on the Hillsborough campaigners for decades.)


----------



## teqniq (Aug 20, 2013)

What the fuck? Scumbags.


----------



## Sprocket. (Aug 20, 2013)

They have no shame and there are no depths to which they will sink.
This is tantamount to pissing on the graves of the victims.
We shouldn't be surprised, we know what they are like.
How many of us here on these boards went to school with someone who joined the police?
How many of us remember those folk as complete and utter dickheads?


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 21, 2013)

Just a reminder:

Chief Constable Graham Moore 



> Graham Moore (pictured top centre) is a police officer who has been on uPSD’s radar since shortly after the publication of the Hillsborough Independent Panel’s report. It is now the right time to shine a light on some of the misconduct/criminality that he has been a party to over a long number of years.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 21, 2013)

laptop said:


> FFS:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
This, remember, was money that Thatcher insisted anyone on benefits who had a share of, had that same amount they'd received docked from their benefits despite this being waived in all other similar circumstances.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 21, 2013)

Meanwhile, SYPolFed recommends South Yorks officers "stop working for free outside of their duty hours as part of the ongoing Police Regulations 'Do it Right' campaign".

http://sypfcopperconnection.co.uk/?p=382

No space or time for anything Hillsborough-related, mind:


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 21, 2013)

The need a platinum connection. Stuff appears and dissappears at will.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 23, 2013)

Middup on getting disaster fund money.


----------



## Fedayn (Sep 1, 2013)

And on it goes......





*Hillsborough police paid money found among the dead into force’s coffers*


----------



## sleaterkinney (Sep 2, 2013)

Picked the pockets of the dead, indeed.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 2, 2013)

Let's just repeat that - they took the money from the victims bodies and paid it into their own SYP fund.


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 2, 2013)

it just gets grimmer and grimmer, how the fuck do they sleep?


----------



## ddraig (Sep 2, 2013)

on their big fluffy righteous pillows bought through overtime and dodgy 'injury' claims


----------



## nino_savatte (Sep 8, 2013)

The Daily Mail claims that it's unmasked that vile shitcunt, Old Holborn.


> This is the face of one of Britain’s most notorious internet trolls.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think many Scousers have known who Old Hobo was for some time.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 8, 2013)

Missed this in the week - guess who:

Hillsborough probe police chief secretly received perks worth £70,000



> the former police chief constable under investigation over the Hillsborough and Stephen Lawrence scandals, secretly received perks worth over £70,000 a year on top of his £170,000 salary.



And the Independent has this today:

A year after the Hillsborough report – nothing 



> Grieving families desperate for justice over the Hillsborough stadium disaster are set for an angry showdown this week with the country's most senior prosecutor and the head of the police watchdog.
> 
> Tensions are so high that the former bishop of Liverpool, who chaired the Hillsborough Panel, has stepped in to mediate between families and the authorities, in an effort to keep the investigations on track.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 9, 2013)

Another day another Bettison series of lies:



> Families of Hillsborough disaster victims today called for answers after new evidence emerged over the conduct of former police chief Sir Norman Bettison.
> 
> The ECHO can reveal a freedom of information request has uncovered phone records which appear to contradict the version of events Mr Bettison gave to the IPCC’s investigation into his actions after the publication of last year’s Hillsborough Independent Panel (HIP) report.
> 
> ...


----------



## laptop (Sep 9, 2013)

So not just a lie, but a _really stupid_ lie... 

(Betting that he claims his assistant had the phone?)


----------



## elbows (Sep 9, 2013)

laptop said:


> So not just a lie, but a _really stupid_ lie...
> 
> (Betting that he claims his assistant had the phone?)



And a lie made under caution.


----------



## The Pale King (Sep 9, 2013)

No mobile signal? That's sub dog-ate-my-homework stuff. How the fuck did he think that would stand up? Does he think he's invincible?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 9, 2013)

The Pale King said:


> No mobile signal? That's sub dog-ate-my-homework stuff. How the fuck did he think that would stand up? Does he think he's invincible?



Of course he did, or a calculating liar, thief and cheat of his ilk would never have done any of those things.

And to be fair, the heads of our police services/police forces have historically been "untouchable"/fireproof, even when they've been obviously corrupt, inept, mad or any combination thereof.


----------



## The Pale King (Sep 9, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Of course he did, or a calculating liar, thief and cheat of his ilk would never have done any of those things.
> 
> And to be fair, the heads of our police services/police forces have historically been "untouchable"/fireproof, even when they've been obviously corrupt, inept, mad or any combination thereof.



That's right. It's he cynicism that gets me - rob the dead and then smear the survivors. I can't get my head around how the hell you could do that, but then I'm not a sociopath. That no-one had the decency to blow the whistle while it was going on says a lot.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 9, 2013)

The Pale King said:


> That's right. It's he cynicism that gets me - rob the dead and then smear the survivors. I can't get my head around how the hell you could do that, but then I'm not a sociopath. That no-one had the decency to blow the whistle while it was going on says a lot.



One of the things I've said on Urban (probably at tedious length!) is that the culture and the power structures within "closed" institutions like police forces make whistleblowing (or even self-regulation) unlikely, so corrupt coppers can not only be fairly sure that they won't be "grassed" by a fellow copper, but they can use that impunity utterly to their own advantage, knowing that their less-dishonest colleagues will just fall in behind them, "them against us", if anything goes wrong.


----------



## likesfish (Sep 9, 2013)

they got away with the lie because it was football fans.
  after heysel  the media and the public were prepared to belive the lie.
 After heysel maggie pushed for  english clubs to be banned from europe and they were for five years.
   have enough bad marks against you nobodys going to belive it wasnt your fault


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 9, 2013)

Apart from the many millions of people who never bought it.


----------



## likesfish (Sep 9, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Apart from the many millions of people who never bought it.



They did get away with it same with bloody sunday for twenty odd years


----------



## chandlerp (Sep 9, 2013)

Never understood the whole "grassing on your mates is the worst thing you can ever do" mentality.

Stuff that went on here needed to be reported.  That's not grassing someone up it is crime prevention which is their fucking job.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 9, 2013)

The Pale King said:


> No mobile signal? That's sub dog-ate-my-homework stuff.



The only top cop who could have got away with that excuse was Chief Constable Todd.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 11, 2013)

IPCC update later today.


----------



## Fedayn (Sep 11, 2013)

*Hillsborough: Fans' accounts and more police statements 'amended'*



> Fans' statements after the Hillsborough stadium disaster "may have been altered", the police watchdog has said.
> 
> The Independent Police Complaints Commission also said 74 further police statements could have been changed - taking the total number above 200.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 11, 2013)

Holy fuck, they altered fans statements.

edit as fed said above.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 11, 2013)

The statement.



> From our work on this we have recovered West Midlands policy books that have never been seen by previous inquiries. We have identified the statements of 74 more officers which may have been amended. We have also uncovered material which would suggest that fans’ witness accounts may have been altered. We have recovered pocket notebooks from officers who were on duty on the day of the match. We are in the process of interviewing all the surviving officers whose accounts were amended.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 11, 2013)

A panel to monitor the go-slow. Rather than making them speed up.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 12, 2013)

Anniversary of publication. Here's the crime report for the stolen CCTV tapes of the day. Stolen from a room that was both locked and alarmed - wonder why they wanted 'no publicity'? (via @wrong_kennedy). More here.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 12, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> A panel to monitor the go-slow. Rather than making them speed up.


Phil Scraton has said this panel lacks expertise understanding and has no in-depth background knowledge of what happened. So a chocolate teapot effectively.

Here a vid of a talk he did on Recovering Truth, Informing Justice- Researching the Hillsborough Disaster:


----------



## elbows (Sep 12, 2013)

> Manslaughter charges could be brought against organisations over the deaths of 96 fans in the Hillsborough tragedy, an inquiry boss has said.
> 
> Jon Stoddart said he was looking at the actions of South Yorkshire Police, Sheffield Wednesday FC, Sheffield City Council and the FA.
> 
> ...



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-24064118


----------



## William of Walworth (Sep 13, 2013)

Don't know how much proper-new is in these Guardian articles from today (Thurs), but interesting maybe (apols if Guardian is recycling stuff already well known on here) :

David Conn :
*Hillsborough: police, FA, council and club could face manslaughter charges*
Lead detective reveals scale of investigation, which will be pursued under 1989 gross negligence manslaughter law

David Conn analysis bit :
*Hillsborough: more new hope for families scarred by a long struggle*
For 23 years, victims' groups seemed to be getting nowhere. In the last 12 months, their progress has been spectacular

Sandra Laville :
*Hillsborough disaster witness statements may have been altered by police – inquiry*
West Midlands police may be responsible, IPCC says, and new evidence has been found from 90 South Yorkshire pocket books


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 15, 2013)

Guess who...again:

Hillsborough cop tipped off before files were made public



> SIR Norman Bettison was passed Hillsborough files suggesting he had a key role in an alleged police propaganda campaign a year before they were made public.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


----------



## Voley (Sep 15, 2013)

Is there any chance of this bastard doing some time?


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 15, 2013)

I really can't see it happening. There's more to come on him as soon well - stuff about his use of hospitality packages to places like Old Trafford to head off disciplinary actions or to gain access to incriminating material...


----------



## teqniq (Sep 15, 2013)

One would really hope so, the evidence building up thus far is compelling. Unfortunately it often seems that when individuals obtain positions of power within the state they often obtain a certain immunity. Whether this is because of fear of information he may have on others and also may bring down if bought to court or whether is because the state always protects it's own is open to question. I suspect the truth may lie somewhere in between.


----------



## Voley (Sep 15, 2013)

Yeah I'm not optimistic either. If he plays for time he could well evade justice even if he's pursued. The current reinvestigation could take three years, even if that recommended prosecution he could probably tie the courts up with appeal after appeal. Then claim ill-health, how a poor old retired man is being hounded etc etc. You know how it is.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 15, 2013)

NVP said:


> Yeah I'm not optimistic either. If he plays for time he could well evade justice even if he's pursued. The current reinvestigation could take three years, even if that recommended prosecution he could probably tie the courts up with appeal after appeal. Then claim ill-health, how a poor old retired man is being hounded etc etc. You know how it is.



If only cop-killers went after the brass rather than the foot-soldiers.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 17, 2013)

Another day...

IPCC: 12,000 people filled out WMP witness forms after Hillsborough. The IPCC says it has found evidence that they may have been doctored and calls for witnesses to contact them.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 17, 2013)

And marvelous: the IPCC investigator (Chris Mahaffey) announcing the above was involved in the initial Tomlinson cover-up.  

(This coming from the excellent Johnathon Corke, the Daily Star journalist who is refusing to let any of this go)


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 17, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Guess who...again:
> 
> Hillsborough cop tipped off before files were made public


...and on top of this (this was december 2011) SYP also gave this scumbag a confidential briefing in february 2012.


----------



## likesfish (Sep 17, 2013)

Fucking up is one thing shit happens.
 Even the intitial storys might be explained in the confusion as in the Jean de menzes case a bloke in a heavy coat did jump the gates unfortunatly it was one of the armed coppers.
     But altering statements,stealing cash from the dead etc etc etc jail time should happen but it wont.


----------



## friedaweed (Sep 17, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Phil Scraton has said this panel lacks expertise understanding and has no in-depth background knowledge of what happened. So a chocolate teapot effectively.
> 
> Here a vid of a talk he did on Recovering Truth, Informing Justice- Researching the Hillsborough Disaster:



Do you think it's that 'bearing witness' emphasis that Phil mentions that's resulted in them asking for witnesses to come forth again?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-24125645


> Thousands of witnesses to the Hillsborough disaster are to be re-interviewed as part of the fresh investigation by the police watchdog.
> 
> The Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC) wants people who were at the stadium in 1989 to contact its team examining the police actions.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 17, 2013)

Mentioned that above. And no, i think it's that the corrupt IPCC investigation into the corrupt west midlands police investigation into the corrupt SYP investigation has show that the sheer volume of alterations cannot be covered up  and credibly presented as results, esp results now open to  public scrutiny - and if it were it would easily be taken down by witnesses challenging it. 

The key point is that there is evidence from the very slow and very partial IPCC investigation that of the witness statements they have looked at, many were altered in conditions where this could only be done by the police. And that this is on top of the alterations in police and ambulance statements.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 18, 2013)

Don't know if anyone saw this story yesterday:

Crown Prosecution Service spends £1MILLION on golden goodbyes for just two former employees

Well, Mike Kennedy, the one who received "at least £515,000" was present at the CPS meeting in 1990 that decided no prosecutions were to be brought against any police as a result of the disaster - and who decided they didn't need to bother reading all of the evidence to reach that decision. Barely 10% was looked at - and they _left it up to the police themselves to decide what that 10% consisted of. _The CPS then tried to cover this up. 20 years later he is given millions from tax-payers money and the families are left fighting the same cover-ups, the same white-washes and the same lies.


----------



## chandlerp (Sep 18, 2013)

It doesn't say millions does it?  It says at least £515,000.  Which is still too fucking much


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 18, 2013)

chandlerp said:


> It doesn't say millions does it?  It says at least £515,000.  Which is still too fucking much


Well i presume he was paid some form of wages in the intervening years. He was being paid 150 grand basic a year recently. For playing a role in making the decisions like the one outlined above and then trying to cover them up.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 18, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Mike Kennedy...



As an aside he was also lead prosecutor in Sussex from shortly after cops there executed unarmed and naked James Ashley in bed through to shortly before the acquittal on murder and manslaughter charges of fatal shooter PC Chris Sherwood.

Given that Kent Constabulary ran the inquiry, and the trials of the police officers involved took place at the Old Bailey and in Wolverhampton, I don't think there is any suggestion he was intimately involved in the prosecutions themselves. However, he would have had a close relationship with senior officers keen to do whatever it took - including smearing the dead man as a dangerous drug dealer, inflating the value of the flawed pre-operation intelligence, ensuring the critical external force reports were kept secret - to close down any suggestion of police impropriety (again) throughout the two years of his tenure as CCP.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 18, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Well i presume he was paid some form of wages in the intervening years. He was being paid 150 grand basic a year recently. For playing a role in making the decisions like the one outlined above and then trying to cover them up.



Greasing the wheels of oppression costs money, and it's money the establishment are more than willing to pay.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 21, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Middup on getting disaster fund money.



The suggestions for what the SYP could spend their claim on the disaster fund money on 







from (@wrong_kennedy)


----------



## Voley (Sep 21, 2013)

A fucking _holiday home_? Just when you think you've heard it all.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 21, 2013)

NVP said:


> A fucking _holiday home_? Just when you think you've heard it all.


Do't forget the 'worthwhile gifts to police officers on sick leave'. Could've been a nice littler earner for south yorkshire police that Hillsborough Disaster Appeal Fund.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 21, 2013)

Going back to the magic disappearing CCTV tapes:






Note the suggestion that supporters or relatives may have stolen them.


----------



## likesfish (Sep 21, 2013)

DaveCinzano said:


> As an aside he was also lead prosecutor in Sussex from shortly after cops there executed unarmed and naked James Ashley in bed through to shortly before the acquittal on murder and manslaughter charges of fatal shooter PC Chris Sherwood.
> 
> int



That was the case where the so called armed team had never met before the mission let alone rehearsed or had the skills to carry out the mission 
  Random people off the street couldnt have made a bigger balls up


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 21, 2013)

Relentless.

Police in pub meeting were told of ‘pride’ at Hillsborough slurs 



> It was the same Pc Middup whose name had appeared in several of those media reports that morning. For it was he, as spokesman for the force’s rank-and-file, who had briefed White’s News Agency in Sheffield the previous day that the fans were partly to blame.
> 
> “I am sick of hearing how good the crowd were,” Mr Middup told reporters. “Some arrived tanked up and the situation faced by officers trying to control them was terrifying.”
> 
> ...


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 22, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Relentless.
> 
> Police in pub meeting were told of ‘pride’ at Hillsborough slurs



Here's the transcript of Middups' contribution to a Yorkshire TV package on the disaster broadcast on the Sunday:



> I am sick of seeing on television and reading in the press these instant experts. Doctors and a few lawyers, who all seem to know more about our job than we do, telling us what we should’ve done, that if there had been police officers just inside those gates that day funnelling people into the outer areas, then this wouldn’t have happened.
> 
> And I’m saying to you that if police officers had’ve been in there, when this mob surged through, the police officers would’ve been trampled to death underneath it. You just can’t handle them. And the vast majority of that lot had been drinking, the ones that were arriving late, and they will not be told what to do, they won’t do anything you try to do, and what can you do?
> 
> ...


----------



## laptop (Sep 23, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Note the suggestion that supporters or relatives may have stolen... the magic disappearing CCTV tapes:



Or, indeed, press.

Which is not in fact beyond the bounds of imagination, in the case of hungry pap with his [_sic_] eye on the tabs...


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 24, 2013)

Further to this discussion of safe storage of evidence, this is from a SYP risk assessment of the place where the original evidence was stored - the assessment followed a whistle-blower warning about files potentially going missing as part of a police cover up:






Whoever could they be worried about doing such a thing?

(Via @wrong_kennedy)


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 24, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Further to this discussion of safe storage of evidence, this is from a SYP risk assessment of the place where the original evidence was stored - the assessment followed a whistle-blower warning about files potentially going missing as part of a police cover up:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Perhaps they thought they were in Carrickfergus?


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 26, 2013)

Excellent piece by Brian Reade in today's mirror on giving and re-reading is witness statement to the police:

Were my words turned into lies?  



> Reading it now I realise why I felt at the time as though I was under investigation, simply for going to a football match.
> 
> Virtually all the questions were slanted towards finding out how culpable the fans were: “What time did you arrive at the ground? Did you witness any disorder? Did you witness any consumption of alcohol in the streets? Did you witness alcohol being brought into the ground or consumed inside the ground? Did you witness any act by supporters which obstructed police, stewards or medical persons? Were you subjected to any threats or violence? Did you witness anything you consider to be a criminal act by any person?”
> 
> ...





> I can’t say if my statement was changed when it was fed into a wider investigation but I do have severe doubts about one of the answers I gave.
> 
> When asked if I’d had any problem getting into the ground I say “we had to force our way around a crowd to get to our turnstiles”
> 
> ...


http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/brian-reade-hillsborough-witness-statement-2301438


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 26, 2013)

A Liverpool Tesco worker became the centre of a debate on Twitter after she told a customer buying The Sun the paper should be banned.

Today Tesco confirmed the unnamed worker -who was on the till at the Allerton Road store -would not be sacked following a complaint, despite rumours circulating on social media.

The customer, who had today removed his profile from the social media site, tweeted Tesco to complain that the worker had been "rude" when he bought The Sun at lunchtime yesterday.

He said: "Girl picked up my paper with her fingernails, clearly didn't want to handle the offensive item, then said to her colleague on the next till 'this shop should ban this paper from being sold here'."

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/liverpool-tesco-worker-wont-sacked-6098306


----------



## killer b (Sep 26, 2013)

a wise move by tescos there. i guess they have ample evidence of the effectiveness of boycotts in liverpool...


----------



## Streathamite (Sep 26, 2013)

I've just caught up with the last 2 pages of this thread. It makes me feel physically sick.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 29, 2013)

Have a read. 



> On the day of the game – outside the stadium - Mike and his friend began to feel uncomfortable with the crowds and with how the police were managing the situation. They decided to try to get out of the crowds, even if it meant missing the kick-off:
> 
> “As the pressure mounts I say to the lads I’ve had enough, I don’t care if I miss the kick off, don’t care if I miss the match, this is dangerous and I want out. I love my footie but someone is going to die here, make no bones. I head off to the side, pushing myself out of the crush and towards the edge of the fans. Sorry lads, I just can’t cope with that. Then someone shouts,” the gate is open” and I find myself looking at an open gate, a couple of coppers and a few fans jumping through. I go for it but as I arrive the copper is trying to pull it shut. I stuck my foot on the bottom and jump through, the last one in as the copper pulls it shut behind me. Half expecting to get nicked, I go to show my ticket but the copper isn’t bothered. I’m in, but what the fuck is going on outside?”
> 
> ...


Anyone reading this who gave a statement, please please go and have a look.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 30, 2013)

*Warning, graphic pic of the disaster on the link*

SYP tried to hire spin doctor who was responsible for the Jean Charles De Menezes PR after his murder.


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 30, 2013)

at risk of sounding conspirascist, how likely is this whole affair down to state forces taking revenge for the north being militantly opposed to her shennanigans?

not that anything was strictly mandated, thats not how its done anyway. But. opportunistic stuff

am I off beam here or is it likely?


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 30, 2013)

It was a result of the way the state(s) treated football fans, and it treated them in that way because of who they were - working class. Cattle. No need for any conspiracy there.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 30, 2013)

This attitude played out for all to see:


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 30, 2013)

Warrington for new inquests. 6 months yet, and then all the stalling to come.

This means in the offices of the IPCC. Really. In  the same offices as the other investigation into possible criminal charges for coppers.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 30, 2013)

They can't let the simple truth come out easily. The police disregarded the H&S of the supporters and ignored the obvious and let them die, then lied about it on an industrial scale as well as stealing directly from the dead and then attempting to steal from the fund set up to support the dead. 

How could it be worse? The mind boggles.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 1, 2013)

More useful digging  by @wrong_kennedy - instructions given to police on how to report what went on:






Source (pdf) Page 448. Note what comes on the following page as well.


----------



## co-op (Oct 1, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> It was a result of the way the state(s) treated football fans, and it treated them in that way because of who they were - working class. Cattle. No need for any conspiracy there.



Isn't there more to it than just that? I'm old enough to remember football before during and after the 80s and there were always some forces that seemed to hate football fans, (hello west midlands) it seemed to me to be based on silly old-fashioned geographical stuff; the WMP hated cockneys for some reason. Liverpool police were absolutely fine in my experience, went up there for games at Tranmere & Liverpool 3 or 4 times, no problems with them.

By 1989 the police had been completely mobilised to _attack_ working class crowds. The SYP were the force that used to brag it broke the miners strike - they were effectively given a free hand by Thatchers govt to do what they liked, hence Orgreave etc (and the massive compensation payouts they had to make afterwards). And it was Liverpool which had stood out as a bastion of left opposition to Thatcher's govt. Maybe some stupid Lancashire/Yorkshire stuff there too.

I think the Hillsborough disaster itself was down to the whole fuck-you-I'm-ok culture of thatcherite free marketism (the deaths at the Leppings Lane end were at least partly due to a barrier collapse, a barrier that had "nearly" failed a safety test) but there was a pretty direct political element; the govt was paying back the SYP for doing its dirty work in the miners strike so effectively. You scratch mine etc. They gave them a free hand to do whatever was necessary to come out looking clean.

Also there was the whole compulsory seating agenda that the richest clubs were pushing, blaming the fans was great for that. The Home Secretary at the time (Waddington?) stood up a day after Hillsborough and said we are going to make all-seaters mandatory and then did a quick backtrack when it was pointed out that he was pre-empting the Taylor Reports - but Taylor was a classic insider, I'm sure he got the message loud and clear.


----------



## co-op (Oct 1, 2013)

Just to add ba thanks for the updates on this thread. What a fucking disgraceful read it is.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 1, 2013)

There certainly was a lot more to the post-disaster cover-ups and smears yes. I understood doctom to be asking about the actual disaster itself though, the deaths. And yes, the gov was always going to pull all out all the stops to help SYP or to allow them space to do what they wanted - Thatchers immediate concern was with the police and their reputation not anything else (i think i linked to some documents showing this earlier in the thread). And west mids were a disgrace across the whole force. I think my first thread on here was asking who in posters experiences of going to football was the worst force and i'm pretty sure they won easily,


----------



## co-op (Oct 1, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> And west mids were a disgrace across the whole force. I think my first thread on here was asking who in posters experiences of going to football was the worst force and i'm pretty sure they won easily,



I missed that - they would have got my vote. Amazing thugs. I remember arriving at New St station in about 1976-77 when I would have been 14ish  and I was going to see Walsall vs Brentford (ffs!). I was so innocent I was wearing a scarf. The first thing that happened as I passed through the ticket barrier was I got grabbed by the throat by one of the WMP put up against a pillar and sworn at (can't actually remember what he said!) while all his mates laughed. Real tough guys.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 7, 2013)

Today is the third and final preliminary inquest hearing before the Inquest proper next march. Can follow later on here. (10:30 start i believe).


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 7, 2013)

Two quick things from today: BBC are to release unseen footage and that police footage presented 'as is' was edited.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 7, 2013)

Half-time summary.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 7, 2013)

Real North West News
@realradionews
 IPCC speaking at #Hillsborough hearing. Now say 238 police statements possibly altered. 220 of them alive. 130 asked to interview, 57 done.

That's a huge leap on what they said before which was about 160 i think.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 7, 2013)

Now we find that west mids police covered up boxes and boxes of info that should have gone to the independent panel. Who'd have thought west mids and the SYP could do such a thing.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 7, 2013)

They didn't cover them up - they just _failed to disclose them_. And they reveal them now. I wonder, does this in any way put back the criminal investigations whilst they have to integrate this new evidence? Of course it does. And then the next fucking lot.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 7, 2013)

Does this mean that the BBC was one of those bodies who refused to release material to the panel?


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 7, 2013)

Why was this BBC footage not released before? Who ordered it not be released? On what grounds? What power do BBC licence payers have to challenge such behaviour if we're not told about it?


----------



## Favelado (Oct 7, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Does this mean that the BBC was one of those bodies who refused to release material to the panel?



The BBC has always got off lightly for the role it played in the hours following the tragedy. It may well be that its anti-fan propaganda was, to invert a popular idiom, more conspiracy than cock-up.


----------



## laptop (Oct 7, 2013)

Don't know yet.

The instinct "fuck off, we're not handing over unbroadcast footage" is a good one, especially when possible criminal charges are involved. 

You'd want them to resist handing over footage that could identify you as doing something on a protest or action. The BBC is (generally) _fairly_ good at resisting until forced by the courts (see Dale Farm, where they won).

But whether that was in fact what was going on...


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 7, 2013)

In the middle of a cavalcade of boxes of recently found evidence? Why wouldn't an elite org be in on  an conspiracy to help the elite?


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Oct 8, 2013)

Thanks for the updates butchers.


----------



## laptop (Oct 8, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Why wouldn't an elite org be in on  an conspiracy to help the elite?



You know where _that_ line of argument goes...


----------



## sleaterkinney (Oct 8, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Does this mean that the BBC was one of those bodies who refused to release material to the panel?


Only Royal and Sun alliance and the Liverpool law society refused. Did the panel not see this footage then?


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 8, 2013)

sleaterkinney said:


> Only Royal and Sun alliance and the Liverpool law society refused. Did the panel not see this footage then?


The BBC in their list of people they released it to do not mention the panel. Why are the BBC making a thing of releasing (to who?) unreleased footage? The Panel, by implication, say the BBC allowed "unrestricted access to their documents and other material."  - but we don't know if this newly released material was part of that.


----------



## Fedayn (Oct 8, 2013)

Philip Chevron of The Pogues, who died today, was also at Hillsborough as  Forest fan. He wrote a piece on the event. I thought it a fitting wee tribute to add it to this thread here.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 8, 2013)

Great piece, thanks. RIP Phil. And cheers to daryl and other forest fans who knew the score.


----------



## treelover (Oct 8, 2013)

http://www.itv.com/news/update/2013-10-07/mark-austin-presents-margaret-aspinall-with-special-award/

Margaret Aspinall wins Mirror Pride Of Britain Award


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 9, 2013)

And today's no longer shocking news:

Former officers shun Hillsborough interviews 



> Seven former police officers whose accounts of the 1989 Hillsborough tragedy were amended have refused to be interviewed by investigators leading a new inquiry.
> 
> The Independent Police Complaints Commission has so far interviewed 57 serving and former officers about their roles in the disaster, as part of the investigation which started a year ago.
> 
> ...



So that's what, around 10% of them refusing so far? The criminal investigation that's running alongside this inquiry, i wonder if they are going to be a bit more persistent in their investigations.


----------



## laptop (Oct 9, 2013)

Yorkshire Post said:
			
		

> Only serving officers or suspects can be compelled to take part.



So the IPCC says "OK, Sonny, you're a suspect" and they each give a no-comment interview?


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 9, 2013)

In this part of the non-criminal investigation they can do that. Actually, in the criminal part they can do that as well. Whether they get to the stage of needing to do so in the latter is another question.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 11, 2013)

Curious:



> Last Updated on Friday, 11 October 2013 11:09
> *HILLSBOROUGH INVESTIGATION - ASK YOUR QUESTIONS OF THE IPCC*
> We have been approached by the IPCC who are willing to prepare a Question and Answer type briefing for us based on any questions our members may have.
> 
> ...



From the National Association of Retired Police Officers.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 13, 2013)

I wonder why this doesn't apply to the inquest team?

Hillsborough: Freemason cops banned from working on criminal probe into cover-up



> Police officers who are Freemasons have been banned from working on the criminal investigation into the Hillsborough cover-up.
> 
> The revelation adds weight to the theory that members of the secretive organisation suppressed the truth after 96 Liverpool fans died in 1989.
> 
> ...


----------



## friedaweed (Oct 13, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> I wonder why this doesn't apply the inquest team?
> 
> Hillsborough: Freemason cops banned from working on criminal probe into cover-up


Yup


----------



## brogdale (Oct 13, 2013)

friedaweed said:


> Yup



Got to ask...how many OB would that leave?


----------



## friedaweed (Oct 13, 2013)

Fedayn said:


> Philip Chevron of The Pogues, who died today, was also at Hillsborough as  Forest fan. He wrote a piece on the event. I thought it a fitting wee tribute to add it to this thread here.


It was his funeral in Dub yesterday. Christy Moore payed tribute to him last night at the Phil in Liverpool. He did an haunting version of Faithful Departed. Apparently Chevron booked Christy Moore/Planxty to play a lunchtime gig at his school when he was 14   A great songwriter RIP.


----------



## friedaweed (Oct 13, 2013)

brogdale said:


> Got to ask...how many OB would that leave?


It makes you wonder doesn't it.  It's an interesting roundabout admittance that the force is riddled with masonry cliques. But then everyone's always knew about the brotherhood anyway. It's good though that the families have at least been granted this request but like Butchers I'll always be skeptical and pessimistic. It's fucking hard not to be


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 13, 2013)

friedaweed said:


> It makes you wonder doesn't it.  It's an interesting roundabout admittance that the force is riddled with masonry cliques. But then everyone's always knew about the brotherhood anyway. It's good though that the families have at least been granted this request but like Butchers I'll always be skeptical and pessimistic. It's fucking hard not to be



I'm not sure how successful any attempt at exclusion will be, either, given that I'm not aware that it's compulsory for coppers to declare lodge membership.


----------



## friedaweed (Oct 13, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> I'm not sure how successful any attempt at exclusion will be, either, given that I'm not aware that it's compulsory for coppers to declare lodge membership.


I would imagine any plod getting involved in the investigation will be asked the question at the time but yeah you're right in that they don't normally have to declare membership. It's interesting though that the IPCC have put their necks out on it.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 15, 2013)

> *Hillsborough inquiry to be treated as manslaughter*
> 1 hour ago
> 
> The police chief leading the criminal investigation into the Hillsborough disaster said he had the "nerve, honesty and integrity" to see justice is done.
> ...



I can't quite tell - is this _something_, or just cutting the same old cloth afresh?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-24541402

Also, any prognosis on the transition from Glass to Cerfontyne?


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 20, 2013)

The latter - it's just a 'could' and it's under the old rubric that requires there to be a single controlling mind behind the gross negligence manslaughter. This law was, of course, dumped because it proved impossible to successfully pursue any charges due to the almost total impossibility of the controlling mind scenario being proven.

Someone put a thought into my head earlier - given the police infiltration etc of the Lawrence, Alder and other campaigns, when are we going to hear about the first similar  hillsborough related activity?


----------



## laptop (Oct 20, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> given the police infiltration etc of the Lawrence, Alder and other campaigns, *when* are we going to hear about the first similar  hillsborough related activity?



December 24 at 16:30?


----------



## brogdale (Oct 22, 2013)

Amongst all the froth around Major's energy statement:-

4.07pm BST

Here's another line from the Major speech that I missed earlier.

John Major apologises to the Hillsborough families. He implies that they should have put less trust in the police. #pressgallery

— Andy McSmith (@andymcsmith) October 22, 2013


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 22, 2013)

Poor, misunderstood South Yorks Police:

*Avon & Somerset JBB* ‏@*ASPolfed*  11m
Many of us were at school when Hillsborough occurred but press commentary takes no account of this.



*SYPF* ‏@*SYPFederation* 
@*ASPolfed* many of our members were not born!

6:05 PM - 22 Oct 13


----------



## ddraig (Oct 22, 2013)

aww the poor police forces getting picked on for what their previous officers did, really not fair


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 30, 2013)

Unbelievable - Bettison was guest of Wolves chairman (who is himself ex-lfc) at Bradford last saturday.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Nov 3, 2013)

> *Investigation into whether Nottingham Forest fans' accounts of Hillsborough were altered by police*
> 
> ...The commission has discovered that some Forest fans were among those who filled in questionnaires given to them by West Midlands Police, alongside large numbers of Liverpool fans, police and stewards.
> 
> ...



http://www.nottinghampost.com/Inves...ans-accounts/story-20024887-detail/story.html


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Nov 3, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> <snip>
> 
> Someone put a thought into my head earlier - given the police infiltration etc of the Lawrence, Alder and other campaigns, when are we going to hear about the first similar  hillsborough related activity?



It would be incredibly surprising if they hadn't done something like that given their extensive previous form.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 10, 2013)

Looks like Hogan Howe has been dissembling wrt evidence of his role.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 10, 2013)

brogdale said:


> Looks like Hogan Howe has been dissembling wrt evidence of his role.


The Observer picking up on a story the Star was pushing nearly a year ago. I know Conn has done useful reporting on this (rather than investigation) he should be doing exactly what Corke at the Star (and i know they are in contact) has been doing.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 10, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> The Observer picking up on a story the Star was pushing nearly a year ago. I know Conn has done useful reporting on this (rather than investigation) he should be doing exactly what Corke at the Star (and i know they are in contact) has been doing.



Oh right. 

Maybe the 'news' in the story is Hogan's "welcoming" of the IPCC inquiry into his role/evidence?


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 10, 2013)

brogdale said:


> Oh right.
> 
> Maybe the 'news' in the story is Hogan's "welcoming" of the IPCC inquiry into his role/evidence?


Yes, and to be fair there has been a slight bit of movement in that HH now admits he was wrong to say he'd made a statement, whereas before he was just sitting tight-lipped.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 10, 2013)

Corke today suggests:

*Jonathan Corke*@JonathanCorke
Documents show Hogan-Howe apparently declining to give a #Hillsborough statement to @WMPolice investigator in 1990


----------



## TopCat (Nov 10, 2013)

brogdale said:


> Oh right.
> 
> Maybe the 'news' in the story is Hogan's "welcoming" of the IPCC inquiry into his role/evidence?


He would welcome this with open arms. He can predict the process and the result.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 12, 2013)

It now appears that he said that he gave statements - plural - to the Taylor Inquiry. So his wriggling over having been confused over who he gave a single statement to is seriously undermined. One yes, ok, you've got yourself some wriggle room, more - no, you've got yourself some trouble.

edit: oh yeah, the challenge panel has now been established:



> The independent panel, which will consist of three experts, will look at the progress being made in the inquiries by the IPCC and Operation Resolve.
> 
> The panel will consist of criminologists Dr Silvia Casale and Prof Roger Graef, and retired Court of Appeal judge, Sir Stephen Sedley.
> 
> Their task will be to work separately from the IPCC and Operation Resolve to ensure they meet key timescales and look at how they communicate with the families of the 96 who lost their lives in the 1989 disaster.





> Sir Stephen is renowned as a legal essayist and made judgements in several high-profile cases during his long legal career.
> 
> In 1989 he penned an essay in support of transparency from the authorities and the public inquiry process.
> 
> ...


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 14, 2013)

Did Hillsborough police help cause crush outside ground?



> But now the possibility is under consideration that police did not just respond poorly to the initial problem, but actively – if inadvertently – helped to create it, and may have tried to obscure the full facts.
> 
> Research by Dr Andrew Watt has compared the initial version of events given by Supt Roger Marshall, who was in overall charge of policing Liverpool supporters outside the ground, with accounts of officers under his command.
> 
> ...


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 17, 2013)

This was in the Guardian yesterday:

Hogan-Howe's work with Hillsborough families was 'a shambles'




> The Metropolitan police commissioner headed an operation dealing with bereaved families at the Hillsborough disaster which was "utter chaos" and "a shambles," according to a senior church figure who was involved in ministering to the families.
> 
> Stephen Lowe, then the archdeacon of Sheffield, said "there was no organisation, no information, no sense of the police working in partnership," at the Hillsborough boys' club where anxious families were kept waiting for news, which was overseen by Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe, then an inspector in the South Yorkshire police.
> 
> ...


----------



## laptop (Nov 18, 2013)

More...



> *Hillsborough: IPCC considers Hogan-Howe disaster role probe*
> 
> 
> 
> ...



* Awaits scalp *


----------



## DaveCinzano (Nov 24, 2013)

Any further light on this? Just popped up on twitter feed today. Don't know anything about it.



> The Sth Yorks Police induction prank that led to 96 deaths in 1989, as #*Hillsborough* match commander changed #*jft96* pic.twitter.com/meZAusbq6R


https://twitter.com/wrong_kennedy/status/404605960368304128/photo/1


----------



## laptop (Nov 25, 2013)

DaveCinzano said:


> Any further light on this? Just popped up on twitter feed today. Don't know anything about it.
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/wrong_kennedy/status/404605960368304128/photo/1



I don't follow. Is it that the Inspector who was suspended for the prank was due to be commander at the match, and would somehow have done it right?


----------



## Smyz (Nov 25, 2013)

laptop said:


> I don't follow. Is it that the Inspector who was suspended for the prank was due to be commander at the match, and would somehow have done it right?


Duckenfield had no experience of policing matches. 

Are they saying that he replaced one of those suspended?


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 25, 2013)

Superintendent Brian Mole was moved because officers he was in charge of pulled that prank. Duckenfield then replaced him. (This isn't new stuff btw Scraton wrote of it many times before)


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 29, 2013)

Russell Brand is donating his fee for this article to the Justice for the 96 campaign

(Not read the story, seems to be a waffly attack on the Sun)


----------



## laptop (Nov 30, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Russell Brand is donating his fee for this article to the Justice for the 96 campaign
> 
> (Not read the story, seems to be a waffly attack on the Sun)



Quite an entertaining one:



> Rupert Murdoch, an animatronic al-Qaida recruitment poster...


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 2, 2013)

Operation Resolve

Site for the criminal investigation into Hillsborough. This is the Stoddart one.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 4, 2013)

9 former SYP officers have refused to attend interviews over allegations of statement altering. They can only be compelled to attend if criminal suspect.


----------



## Favelado (Dec 4, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> 9 former SYP officers have refused to attend interviews over allegations of statement altering. They can only be compelled to attend if criminal suspect.



I'm going to take a cynical guess that we don't even get to find out who they are.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 4, 2013)

Favelado said:


> I'm going to take a cynical guess that we don't even get to find out who they are.


Well, Operation Resolve the criminal investigation has just kicked off - let's see what they do about this. People in the know are suggesting that the IPCC inquiry will be dragged out until 2018 in order to allow a whole host of officers to retire. As 40 have already done so in the year since the independent panel reported back.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 10, 2013)

More shortly:

*Jonathan Corke*@JonathanCorke
Solicitors acting for 20 #Hillsborough families have accused @IPCCNews of "impeding us in our efforts to properly prepare for the inquest.."

Potentially massive, potentially playing into the game of dragging it out.


----------



## Favelado (Dec 10, 2013)

I've said it before but thanks for these updates. Some of the things you are catching I am missing elsewhere and they also save me a trawl through RAWK.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 10, 2013)

The solicitors asked @IPCCNews for names of officers identified by #Hillsborough Independent Panel as having altered statements. They say @IPCCNews has refused the request and say it is "another example of the IPCC stonewalling" 

Remember what we said above about officers refusing and retiring?


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 10, 2013)

Favelado said:


> I've said it before but thanks for these updates. Some of the things you are catching I am missing elsewhere and they also save me a trawl through RAWK.


More than welcome mate. There's a real fight going on that the fuckers think they can win if it's kept secret - let's stop that happening.


----------



## belboid (Dec 14, 2013)

Anne Williams will get the Helen Rollason award at SPOTY on Sunday.

http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/sports-personality/25357425


----------



## marty21 (Dec 15, 2013)

belboid said:


> Anne Williams will get the Helen Rollason award at SPOTY on Sunday.
> 
> http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/sports-personality/25357425


just watched  the award  - not a dry eye in this house, or any other house I'd say.


----------



## Plumdaff (Dec 15, 2013)

marty21 said:


> just watched  the award  - not a dry eye in this house, or any other house I'd say.



It was powerful, eh.


----------



## marty21 (Dec 16, 2013)

Plumdaff said:


> It was powerful, eh.


Yep , Alan Hansen was in tears


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Dec 16, 2013)




----------



## DaveCinzano (Dec 16, 2013)

Fozzie Bear said:


>



What about other 47 “potentially amended statements’? Is this down to an anomaly between the number of witnesses and the number of statements - eg 193 witnesses made a total of 240 statements?

Scrub that, found the answer to my own question (p3):



> there are currently 47 officers who we are researching or awaiting scheduling of an interview.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 16, 2013)

A


Fozzie Bear said:


>



Adding them numbers up that suggest single officers amended multiple statements. Bear in mind this is not the criminal investigation so they cannot be compelled to so anything yet. And they are all retired.

10 minutes of police footage has now disappeared the pre-inquest was told a while ago. Can be followed here.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Dec 16, 2013)

I will hazard a guess that some/all of the retired officers will shift into the "unift" category before they are compelled to give testimony. Or will die of course.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Dec 16, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Adding them numbers up that suggest single officers amended multiple statements.


See above.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 16, 2013)

DaveCinzano said:


> See above.


Ta, interesting if it turns out that all the coppers involved only took one statement.

Ah hang on, this is alteration of their own statements, not alteration of those they took from others.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 16, 2013)

QC for Duckenfield, Greenwood and Marshall (all nicely retired now of course) tried to argue today that anyone sympathetic to LFC should be exluded from the jury.


----------



## Fedayn (Dec 16, 2013)

*Hillsborough: Hearing told of police video 10 minute gap

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-25399435*


----------



## Favelado (Dec 16, 2013)

Fedayn said:


> *Hillsborough: Hearing told of police video 10 minute gap
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-25399435*



Is this in addition to the tape that went missing at the time? There's always been missing footage but if they're still at it now then... then I don't know.. it wouldn't be a surprise at all would it.

Every time you think it can't get any worse, it gets worse.


----------



## LiamO (Dec 16, 2013)

Fedayn said:


> *Hillsborough: Hearing told of police video 10 minute gap
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-25399435*



Good to see an old friend and comrade still fighting the good fight.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 10, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Someone put a thought into my head earlier - given the police infiltration etc of the Lawrence, Alder and other campaigns, when are we going to hear about the first similar  hillsborough related activity?


Calls for Met to "come clean" about spying on Hillsborough campaigners



> The Metropolitan Police are today under pressure to come clean on whether Special Branch spied on Hillsborough families.
> 
> An article in the latest issue of Private Eye reported the Met refused to "confirm or deny" whether Hillsborough justice campaigners were put under surveillance.
> 
> ...



Not read the PE story yet.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 10, 2014)

Paul Salt
@paulsaltysalt
 Speaking to Sheila Coleman from @HJC_Official on @bbcmerseyside at 430 on Private Eye claim the Met spied on Hillsborough victims families


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jan 10, 2014)

Quick pic of the _Private Eye_ story:

 

Note that supposed Augean stable cleaner Mick Creedon's Operation Herne investigation into the Special Demonstration Squad (SDS), NPOIU and other undercover police units explicitly endorses the ‘neither confirm nor deny’ (NCND) policy employed here (eg see p3 of the initial Op Herne report).


----------



## Voley (Jan 10, 2014)

I'm not a big fan of the Eye's journalism these days but there's more than a a hint of nail on head with that one. I hope they stick with it.


----------



## ddraig (Jan 10, 2014)

quite


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jan 11, 2014)

The _Daily Star Sunday_ journalist Jonathan Corke is proper going for it at the moment.



> *Jonathan Corke* ‏@*JonathanCorke*  Have pointed out to @*metpoliceuk* that if it holds information on #*Hillsborough* this should have been handed to independent panel..
> 
> 10:54 AM - 11 Jan 14





> *Jonathan Corke* ‏@*JonathanCorke*  16m
> The @*metpoliceuk* seems to have a problem providing a straight yes or no #*Hillsborough*
> 
> 10:55 AM - 11 Jan 14





> *Jonathan Corke* ‏@*JonathanCorke*
> The unit may be charged with "national security" but how does that relate to #*Hillsborough* families seeking answers?
> 
> 11:01 AM - 11 Jan 14





> *Jonathan Corke* ‏@*JonathanCorke*  7m
> It's abundantly clear that both SYP and WMP failed to hand over all #*Hillsborough* material held to the independent panel
> 
> 11:06 AM - 11 Jan 14





> *Jonathan Corke* ‏@*JonathanCorke*
> So why wouldn't those seeking to provide the "definitive account" not ask all forces for any #*Hillsborough* material they may hold?
> 
> 11:07 AM - 11 Jan 14


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jan 24, 2014)

Cuba Gooding Jr endorses JFT96 






http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/hollywood-superstar-cuba-gooding-jr-6590980


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 24, 2014)

> The actor, who was training in a Los Angeles gym with Liverpool boxer Paul Smith ahead of Smith’s fight at the ECHO Arena on March 15, held up a red T-shirt emblazoned with ‘HILLSBOROUGH 96. JUSTICE’ on it [in red].


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jan 28, 2014)

Steven Gerrard donates £96,000 to the Hillsborough Family Support Group



> ...But now it’s gone a little bit quiet over the last couple of weeks, I think the timing’s really good to get it back out there – sending another message out about how much we really want this justice...



http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/liverpool-fc-steven-gerrard-donates-6635912


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 30, 2014)

Piece tonight on Newsnight about west mids police - the force who investigated the SYP role in hillsborough and who decided what evidence went to the CPS and the coroners court and who have thus far escaped relatively unscathed - and their treatment of witnesses. BBC newsnight journo says: "Shocking accounts from Hillsborough survivors @BBCNewsnight tonight of "interrogations" by WMids police.Vulnerable,traumatised yet rejected."

(ta to @TheWrongKennedy+@PMarshallNews)


----------



## Fedayn (Feb 3, 2014)

And there's more (ties in with butchers post above)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-25947994



> Survivors of Hillsborough have said they were intimidated and threatened by police from the independent force asked to investigate the football disaster.
> BBC Newsnight has heard that witness criticisms of police who had been at the scene were not properly recorded.
> This is the first time fans have come forward to question how West Midlands police took their statements.


----------



## ddraig (Feb 3, 2014)

^^^ on newsnight tonight


> *Watch Peter Marshall's film in full on Newsnight on Monday 3 February at 22:30 on BBC Two, and then afterwards on the*Newsnight website* and *BBC iPlayer*.*


----------



## elbows (Feb 3, 2014)

Disgusting, and thoroughly unsurprising.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 3, 2014)

ACAB.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 4, 2014)

This was in the Mirror yesterday:

Hillsborough tragedy survivors were branded ''criminals and left-wing agitators'' by police for pointing out their failings



> Nick Braley, 53, says his statement doesn’t reflect the truth either. Notes referring to his case say, “came across as totally anti-police”. And then there’s his Nelson Mandela T-shirt – “was wearing a ‘left-wing’ type T-shirt, actual motif not known”.



Johnathon Corke notes elsewhere:



> "(Police asked) Was I a student agitator? Was I a member of the Socialist Workers Party?"


----------



## sleaterkinney (Feb 5, 2014)

Updates from today's Hillsborough pre-inquest hearing in London

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news...dates-todays-hillsborough-pre-inquest-6672744



> Duckenfield's lawyer confirms they will introduce supposed fan drunkenness as a factor at Hillsborough.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 5, 2014)

sleaterkinney said:


> Updates from today's Hillsborough pre-inquest hearing in London
> 
> http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news...dates-todays-hillsborough-pre-inquest-6672744





> Angry cries of 'disgrace' in court.


 FS


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 5, 2014)

sleaterkinney said:


> Updates from today's Hillsborough pre-inquest hearing in London
> 
> http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news...dates-todays-hillsborough-pre-inquest-6672744


I wonder what Duckenfields neighbours around Ferndown think about all this.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Feb 11, 2014)

From http://hillsboroughinquests.independent.gov.uk/documents-and-rulings/



> *Documents and rulings*
> *Media coverage of the Inquests (11 February 2014)*
> Having considered what has been published following the hearing on 5 February 2014, the Coroner wants to make the following quite clear:
> 
> ...


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 11, 2014)

This thread is the most depressing thing on urban by miles.

How many more revelations can there be that the state not only caused and covered up this tragedy, not only smeared, but did the actions they smeared others with; lied all the way from copper on the street to the prime minister?

Thanks for all the updates.

As Mark Thomas says: If you're not pissed off, you're not paying attention.

If this doesn't make everyone sit up and see the shit they shovel nothing will


----------



## Nice one (Feb 11, 2014)

banner at the liverpool-arsenal game on saturday


----------



## likesfish (Feb 12, 2014)

None of the ministers were anywhere near hillsborough they just let their prejudice against of football fans remember heysel?
  And trust in the police this is all on yorkshire police they fucked up its what people do 
 The liesthough thats all on them and no excuse for that should leadto jail time ascoppers are meant to


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 12, 2014)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> This thread is the most depressing thing on urban by miles.
> 
> How many more revelations can there be that the state not only caused and covered up this tragedy, not only smeared, but did the actions they smeared others with; lied all the way from copper on the street to the prime minister?
> 
> ...


I think that there's a distancing thing with Hillsborough - with footbalh generally. Or at least stuff from that period. They've all made good use of it.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 21, 2014)

Despite everything that';s now been made public some people still don't get it. This is from the front page of yesterdays Reading Chronicle - if you zoom in on the first para it reads: _Football hooliganism may be thought of as a relic from a previous age when gangs of denim-clad skinheads held the game to ransom and names like Hillsborough and Heysel were symbols of its ills._


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 21, 2014)

^^^^ That's shocking all round really.  First the Hillsborough slur, then the implication that Reading has potential crowd trouble (I doubt there is a more placid crowd in the Championship) and thirdly the crap, staged photo.  Quality local journalism all round.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 21, 2014)

Jesus wept.

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/campaigners-react-angrily-after-reading-6857241



> A newspaper in Reading has come under fire for a front page story appearing to link the Hillsborough disaster with hooliganism...


----------



## ddraig (Mar 21, 2014)

2 posts up bruv


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 21, 2014)

ddraig said:


> 2 posts up bruv



Yes, I know!

http://www.readingchronicle.co.uk/n.../03/21/98736-berkshire-media-group-statement/



> *Berkshire Media Group Statement*
> 
> Published: 21 Mar 2014 11:30
> A statement from the Managing Director of Berkshire Media Group.
> ...



Arseholes.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 21, 2014)

The _denim clad _bit is well weird. And the skinheads bit is inaccurate.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 21, 2014)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Yes, I know!
> 
> http://www.readingchronicle.co.uk/n.../03/21/98736-berkshire-media-group-statement/
> 
> ...


Not for linking FH with hillsborough but _for appearing to_. Add it to the pile of apologetic sounding non-apolgies Santino. I think that was a gen apol but such has the dominance of the apologetic sounding non-apolgies become in any group larger than 20 people that this is now what they think is a real apology.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 21, 2014)

You'd have thought that with the Hillsborough lies being wholly exposed a newspaper would know better, especially after Kelvin McKenzie*
Who incidentally is standing as a councillor in my borough, we're moving out of the area!


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 21, 2014)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> You'd have thought that with the Hillsborough lies being wholly exposed a newspaper would know better, especially after Kelvin McKenzie*
> Who incidentally is standing as a councillor in my borough, we're moving out of the area!


Is he really? info please!!


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 21, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Is he really? info please!!



http://www.theguardian.com/media/greenslade/2014/mar/20/kelvin-mackenzie-sun


> The former Sun editor, Kelvin MacKenzie, has kept a low profile for the last year or so since losing his Daily Mail column and being dropped after writing just one column for the Daily Telegraph.
> But he has put his head above the parapet once more by standing as an independent candidate for Elmbridge borough council in Weybridge, Surrey.



Just sold our house in Elmbridge and we're heading for the hills, literally!


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 21, 2014)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> http://www.theguardian.com/media/greenslade/2014/mar/20/kelvin-mackenzie-sun
> 
> 
> Just sold our house in Elmbridge and we're heading for the hills, literally!


Cheers. Let's see what we can do with this.


----------



## LiamO (Mar 21, 2014)

Think the Inquest starts in earnest next week. I would imagine the Plod - and indeed the government - are dreading it.


----------



## barney_pig (Mar 21, 2014)

John madjeski turns up the pressure on the chronic
"Both the Club and I have received a number of complaints today regarding an article in the Reading Chronicle, and I personally share our supporters’ dismay.

In my opinion the nature of the article, and in particular the image manufactured for the front page, completely misrepresents the vast majority of our fans, and their experiences supporting the team both at Madejski Stadium and on the road.

The article itself is an unwarranted and sensationalised attack which undermines everything our club tries to represent. To paint a full picture, last season there was only one Reading fan arrested at Madejski Stadium, and only ten arrests out of nearly half a million home and away fans through the turnstiles, all for minor offences. Those Home Office figures speak for themselves.

I have spent more than a quarter of my life building up this football club on and off the pitch, so I personally take a series of gross misrepresentations in this edition as insults to our club’s good name. No club is perfect, but I and every member of staff work tirelessly to make Madejski Stadium a great place to bring your family and friends and I know Thames Valley Police also take great pride in our exemplary record.

When the Club was named Family Club of the Year by the Football League, it was one of the finest moments of my time here, and remains just as important to me as everything we have achieved on the pitch.

The newspaper also contains a comment relating to the Hillsborough tragedy that has deeply offended many of us in the football family.

With all that in mind, we have decided to suspend our relationship with this particular publication. We have a duty to protect the club’s reputation, and particularly to protect our supporters’ reputation. This is not a decision we take lightly because we value the freedom of the press and have enjoyed excellent relationships with our local media in the past, but we are sure our supporters will agree that we cannot allow the fans’ good name to be besmirched in this way.

So many people have spoken to me today about this article – both supporters and my colleagues here at the club – hurt and disappointed by what they had read. As custodians for Reading Football Club, the right course of action was clear to us all.

*Sir John Madejski OBE, DL*

Chairman"


----------



## William of Walworth (Mar 22, 2014)

Good on him. I've never liked Reading (being Oxford!  ) but he's always seemed like one of the less-bad club bosses.

If he'd specifically mentioned the paper's lies about Hillsborough as well, it would have been an even better statement, but I suppose that's hoping for too much -- and he was focussing on the Reading fan aspect tbf.


----------



## newbie (Mar 22, 2014)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> You'd have thought that with the Hillsborough lies being wholly exposed a newspaper would know better, especially after Kelvin McKenzie*
> Who incidentally is standing as a councillor in my borough, we're moving out of the area!


You'd have thought that with the Coroner's warning a newspaper would know better


----------



## killer b (Mar 22, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> The _denim clad _bit is well weird. And the skinheads bit is inaccurate.


it's a thoughtless junior hack with no actual knowledge of hillsborough, football hooliganism or fuck all else trying to craft an exciting sentence is all. Blame lies more on the newspaper editor for letting it through IMO.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 27, 2014)

Hillsborough: IPCC identifies 13 suspects in the investigation into the disaster



> Police watchdog the IPCC has identified 13 suspects in the investigation into theHillsborough disaster.
> 
> Following today's pre-inquest hearing the commission revealed it was in the process of interviewing the retired and serving officers *under criminal caution *for a range of offences including *misconduct in public office, perverting the course of justice and manslaughter*.
> 
> ...


Starts proper this monday.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Mar 27, 2014)

this is all that's carried on the front page of this week's reading chronic(le)



> LAST week’s issue of the Reading Chronicle carried a special investigative piece entitled "The Other Face of Football”.
> 
> This article caused great offence to Reading Football Club, Reading fans and those affected by the dreadful events of Hillsborough in 1989.
> 
> ...



The editor (of that rag, that is) currently suspended from duty.  Story here.


----------



## cesare (Mar 27, 2014)

Puddy_Tat said:


> this is all that's carried on the front page of this week's reading chronic(le)
> 
> 
> 
> The editor (of that rag, that is) currently suspended from duty.  Story here.


Still no acknowledgement of the Hillsborough aspect.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 30, 2014)

Couple of things:

Hillsborough campaigners row as 'missing' police files emerge



> We found that scores of police documents relating to the 1989 disaster have been found since an independent panel’s report in September 2012.
> 
> The files are from West Midlands Police, who investigated the tragedy in Sheffield, which claimed 96 lives.
> 
> ...



(Not the best ever pic of Sheila either)

and this (note - link to a doc) coroners order that seems to severely restrict reporting of last weeks pre-inquest.


----------



## ddraig (Apr 1, 2014)

Bbc article with pics and details of each one of the 96
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26765007


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 1, 2014)

Going to be a year of this:



> Duckenfield said shortly afterwards that Gate C had been forced, but it was him who ordered it to be opened, coroner says.



This is the talk about what will be covered.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 1, 2014)

I'm still fair staggered by the attempts to access the victims funds and the robbing off dead peoples pockets, blamed on the supporters. And the blood alcohol tests. Whats the chances of those heinous shit things seeing an airing in this inquest?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 1, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> I'm still fair staggered by the attempts to access the victims funds and the robbing off dead peoples pockets, blamed on the supporters. And the blood alcohol tests. Whats the chances of those heinous shit things seeing an airing in this inquest?


 Not massively confident - there is large input from this side this time (or it's set out to have it anyway).


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 1, 2014)

The blood alcohol, coroner talking about that now and will from part of this one.


----------



## laptop (Apr 1, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> and this (note - link to a doc) coroners order that seems to severely restrict reporting of last weeks pre-inquest.



No longer available as a .DOC at that address. See PDFs from http://hillsboroughinquests.independent.gov.uk/documents-and-rulings/

The order was immediately varied (following a challenge, I'll wager) thus:



> The order made on 31 March 2014, pursuant to Section 4(2) of the Contempt of Court Act
> 1981, is hereby varied as follows. Reporting is permitted of proceedings on 31 March 2014
> to the extent only that it may be reported that (a) a jury is being empanelled to serve in these
> inquests; (b) the jury is to be sworn on 1 April 2014; and (c) potential jurors have been
> ...



Does make some sense... do all the witnesses yet _know_ they'll be called? Who might do a runner?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 1, 2014)

Diff ruling mate. Come back in this later but this was about last weeks pre-inquest meeting.


----------



## laptop (Apr 1, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Diff ruling mate. Come back in this later but this was about last weeks pre-inquest meeting.



Ah, this: http://hillsboroughinquests.indepen...f-Court-Act-1981-Order-and-Agenda-27-3-14.pdf 

Same principle about legal arguments.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Apr 1, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Going to be a year of this:
> 
> 
> 
> This is the talk about what will be covered.



Urgh, it's gonna be a depressing year.

This isn't some truth and reconciliation bollocks is it? These fuckers need to go down, for a long time.


----------



## laptop (Apr 1, 2014)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> This isn't some truth and reconciliation bollocks is it?



That was my first thought on seeing the BBC memorial page


----------



## friedaweed (Apr 1, 2014)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> This isn't some truth and reconciliation bollocks is it? These fuckers need to go down, for a long time.



*Justice* isn't truth and reconciliation. If they try that we'll be back to square one. They know who did the dirty work and they can give the cunts up now and keep their sign of the times lies to themselves it wont wash with the families.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Apr 5, 2014)

A slight tangent, but any help on this most appreciated.

Does anyone know if John Beggs QC - the silk (“indisputably the lead QC to go to if you're a police force in a tight spot”) representing Duckenfield & co for the PSA and who said the Hillsborough Inquiry wasn't independent because it dealt with survivors' and support groups which have “an agenda” - was ever actually charged in connection with his previous life as an animal rights activist & spokesman for ALF, HRS, ARM etc?

The 1989 Henshaw book says no.

Also, anyone know what he did between 1993 & 1998?

(PS Yes, I have seen the April/May 2012 _Private Eye_ articles but they don't address the questions above.)


----------



## treelover (Apr 10, 2014)

Trevor Hicks presented his 'portrait of the victims' today at the hearing, heart breaking: he lost two beautiful daughters, he should never have gone through what he has, the deaths and then the obscene cover up, they have a lot to answer for. I was in Liverpool at the time and our community arts training centre made the banner that was used in the Cathedral Memorial, footballers, families and fans all came to the centre to pay their respects and to see the banner.

never forget!


----------



## TopCat (Apr 11, 2014)

I can see where this is going.


----------



## JTG (Apr 12, 2014)

All games kicking off at 3:07 today.

Still remember that day so clearly - a young lad desperate for Everton to beat Norwich and reach the final. Going out and playing football with my brother on the school tennis courts next to our house, knowing there had been a delay in the other semi final but assuming it was only temporary. Coming in to watch the final scores on ITV and seeing Elton Welsby's grim face announcing the news from Sheffield. Pat Nevin's winner at Villa Park suddenly completely irrelevant to even this Everton mad 11 year old.

That was when I knew that the Thatcher government hated football fans like me. ID cards were going to be imposed on all of us and then they lied and lied and lied about Hillsborough. I've never trusted the police since.

Justice better be coming because the truth's been out there for 25 years and we all knew it.


----------



## purenarcotic (Apr 12, 2014)

My mum was pregnant with me when Hillsborough happened so obviously I don't remember it but she does clearly.  She remembers crying watching the news and the sheer disgust when she saw the scum's headlines afterwards.  I remember her telling me about it when I was a kid and had first heard about it in Nick Hornby's Fever Pitch and how much the families had been fucked over but how important it was to never, ever stop fighting for what's right. 

Will be thinking of the 96 today and this coming week.  RIP and let right be done.


----------



## chandlerp (Apr 12, 2014)

The Mail has an article about the silence observed at the matches today.  The comments beneath it are fucking depressing...time to move on, only ever the victim etc....ffs.


----------



## JTG (Apr 12, 2014)

chandlerp said:


> The Mail has an article about the silence observed at the matches today.  The comments beneath it are fucking depressing...time to move on, only ever the victim etc....ffs.


I was having these arguments in the 1990s when it really was an outsider campaign and the official line was very widely accepted. There is absolutely no way that events like today's would have been held back then across the country to commemorate the victims and widely acknowledge that justice was not served at the time. There are still nobheads out there who believe the sort of stuff you quote - but they're a lot rarer than they were. We've come a very long way (over far too long a time however).

I had a grim smile today at the Bristol Rovers game over how certain members of the club establishment who chided me on email lists in the late 90s for advocating the Hillsborough families' cause would have been solemnly standing and agreeing with the words concerning justice being spoken before the silence.


----------



## chandlerp (Apr 13, 2014)

The comments got so bad they have been switched off


----------



## Red Cat (Apr 13, 2014)

I woke up this morning from a nightmare about Anfield having been burned to the ground. I hadn't even read the comments.


----------



## treelover (Apr 20, 2014)

edited after discussion,


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 20, 2014)

Of course it's supportive given that he was reported to the OB after his comments about hillsborough and liverpool in general. It's cheap rubbish that doesn't really need promoting here or anywhere.


----------



## treelover (Apr 20, 2014)

fair enough, its gone...


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 20, 2014)

... but not forgotten, like my darling clementine


----------



## butchersapron (May 29, 2014)

The so-called Independent Press Standards Organisation And The Hillsborough Apologist:


http://zelo-street.blogspot.co.uk/2014/05/ipso-and-hillsborough-apologist.html



> The so-called Independent Press Standards Organisation (IPSO), named to give the pretence of independence when it does not have any, has now announced its board. And those of truly independent mind have homed in on the presence of one William Newman, former managing editor and then ombudsman of the Murdoch Sun.
> 
> ...
> 
> “It is the Sun’s duty as a newspaper to publish information, however hurtful and unpalatable it may be at the time”, he told. “On reflection, we accept the way in which the article was displayed could have given cause for offence. For that we apologise. For the substance we do not ... We cannot possibly apologise for facts and to do so would be an abdication of our responsibility to a wider public”.


----------



## worcesterian (Jun 13, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> A slight tangent, but any help on this most appreciated.
> 
> Does anyone know if John Beggs QC - the silk (“indisputably the lead QC to go to if you're a police force in a tight spot”) representing Duckenfield & co for the PSA and who said the Hillsborough Inquiry wasn't independent because it dealt with survivors' and support groups which have “an agenda” - was ever actually charged in connection with his previous life as an animal rights activist & spokesman for ALF, HRS, ARM etc?
> 
> ...



Hello Dave

At  that stage it appears John Beggs was involved in other  areas  of legal work such as medical  negligence.  If  you search  for such a  thing as up and coming  junior  counsel as he  then was  there  is  something about it.  He knew  quite a  bit  about policing back in the  1980s as he was  legal officer for the HSA  (hunt  sabs) and wrote  articles about  civil liberties as  applicable  to sabs,   |( I remember those  magazines  as I  used  to read them back then  )  and at some stage (I  think  about  1999)  he had some form of   training  film in relation  to police  which got  an award in the USA.

Use  'wayback machine'  to  seek archived  versions of pages no longer available in google  (there might not be any as  regards the  Chambers John Beggs  is presently with   (or  there may, I havent looked)  and archived material might  provide  clarity as  regards the  type of work  undertaken at  a particular  stage. 

There is an interesting  case  to be  found online where he was  representing police  in a  civil action,. all hell broke  loose,  the reporting suggests that the  unsuccessful litigant  appeared  furious with John Beggs   and this  courtroom drama   at trial ended  up leading to an affray  charge and the chap was  acquitted.   Unfortunately, there isn't  a great deal online about it but he had  gone  beserk according to the online reports, tables  and all sorts being  chucked  about and legal teams  running for cover.  One wonders what  that was  all about. 

No he wasn't  ever  charged  for any of the things stated  (or  implied) in the Henshaw book as  far as I know	 but you might wonder how being as  close  to some of the extremist agenda  and  characters  _that  the Henshaw  book presents_  how  could the police feel comfortable having him   It seems  improbable they would not have had knowledge of a  significant leading  figure in that movement,  the things  they may have said publically,  and  any  known associations.   Of  course, the Police will  surely  have been aware  of the Henshaw  book,.  any  sort of literary work  like that was effective potential intelligence. 

If  someone applied  to the Police to  be a  constable  or  even a CSO   and they knew of   such an animal  rights  ancestry  they  would almost certainly  not appoint them  (even if  there were no  charges  or  convictions	Just being a member of the RSPCA  or  the League  against Cruel Sports wouldnt matter

Hope  that helps


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jun 13, 2014)

worcesterian said:


> Hope  that helps



Yes thanks


----------



## worcesterian (Jun 15, 2014)

This is a  you tube video  that shows John Beggs Q.C   back in the   1980s before  he  was  a Barrister.	 He is  speaking  on behalf  of the  South East  Animal Liberation League


----------



## chandlerp (Jun 18, 2014)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...saster-told-not-stick-nose-inquest-hears.html


----------



## elbows (Aug 28, 2014)

http://www.theguardian.com/football...-inquest-officer-alcohol-scent-smell-of-death



> A former South Yorkshire police officer who was on duty at the Hillsborough disaster in 1989 has said a reference he made in his statement to a "smell of alcohol" in the pens where 96 Liverpoolsupporters died was wrong in hindsight and could have been "the smell of death".
> 
> Alan Ramsden, who served in the force from 1974 until 2002, told the new inquest into the disaster that other officers had not encouraged him to make reference to alcohol. "It was just an assumption by me at the time," he said.





> After the disaster, Ramsden's statement was changed, which he said was done without his approval, and of which he remained unaware until this year. The first change was to remove his recollection that before the 1987 FA Cup semi-final at Hillsborough, police officers formed a cordon outside the Leppings Lane end to control the flow of supporters by ensuring they had tickets and did not carry anything offensive, including weapons. Two years later, police did not operate a similar "sterile area".





> The second section removed from his statement referred to the location of the police control box at Hillsborough, "overlooking the area where the tragedy took place". Ramsden had written in his original account: "Were not the officers appreciative of the developing situation? What was the feedback from the officers working the perimeter of the pitch? Couldn't they see the developing crush on the terraces?"





> He agreed with Simblet that his observation about the position of the control box was significant and remains important today. Mark George QC, representing 21 bereaved families, asked Ramsden: "You have got a control box overlooking the very end of the ground where this disaster happened, and you couldn't understand how on earth this had happened under the eyes of the officers in charge?"
> 
> "That's correct," Ramsden replied. He said he had felt "let down" by senior officers.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 28, 2014)

Ta for that. Was thinking of doing a round up over the weekend as there's been some important stuff over the last week. Hard to balance posting everything with what is 100% relevant/key/important.


----------



## Voley (Aug 28, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Hard to balance posting everything with what is 100% relevant/key/important.


This thread's excellent for separating the wheat from the chaff. I often hear about stuff on this thread that I wouldn't stumble across otherwise. Many thanks to everyone who's contributed.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 17, 2014)

Worth mentioning whilst the inquest continues:

*Final chance - Symphony No.11 'Hillsborough Memorial'*

Wednesday *17 September - 3:06*
Liverpool  Cathedral

As well as the live performance of Michael Nyman's Symphony No.11 'Hillsborough Memorial' on Saturday 5th July, you now have this last chance to hear a recording of the Symphony.

A recording of the symphony will be played in the awesome Main Space of the Cathedral on several dates over the Summer. The recording lasts approx. 1 hour.

Symphony No. 11: Hillsborough Memorial represents the culmination of Michael Nyman's thinking around the tragedies connected with Liverpool Football Club. 25 years after the Hillsborough disaster, he says that he hopes it will make a small but significant contribution to the healing process still necessary for the families of the lost fans.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 17, 2014)

This is from Madrid's recently named Margaret Thatcher Plaza:







Those stickers are variants of this:


----------



## Favelado (Sep 17, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> This is from Madrid's recently named Margaret Thatcher Plaza:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It wasn't me. Yet.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 17, 2014)

Favelado said:


> It wasn't me. Yet.


Liverpool in madrid on nov 4th as well...plenty of opps.


----------



## Favelado (Sep 17, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Liverpool in madrid on nov 4th as well...plenty of opps.



Where did you find the photo. Even Publico don't seem to have picked up on it.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 17, 2014)

Favelado said:


> Where did you find the photo. Even Publico don't seem to have picked up on it.


Here


----------



## Favelado (Sep 17, 2014)

It's a fucking insult that Aguirre/Botella have wangled it so that they get a square named after their hero. "I think the first three Star Wars films are pretty cool, so if I'm mayor I'm going to make sure there's a Plaza de Chewbacca", was my favourite comment on it.

Maybe RAWK will think about doing something by way of a protest for the Madrid game. Not out of the question.


----------



## Dogsauce (Sep 17, 2014)

Someone'll be weighing that sign in for scrap on the Wirral next week, once it's no longer useful as a urinal.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 10, 2014)

PS Is it worth having a separate inquest thread?


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 10, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> PS Is it worth having a separate inquest thread?



Might be - long long way to go yet. I was thinking after yesterdays stuff to try and do a round-up each week on sundays. An ongoing thing might be better - just don''t know given the nature of the last few months stuff though i.e fairly mundane but with killer stuff buried in the mundanity - duckenfield telling coppers not to use their own notebooks but blank pads he will provide for example. Give it a shot i say.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 10, 2014)

Might do that later then.

_Liverpool Echo_ live feed is grim reading at the moment:

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/live-hillsborough-inquests---friday-7913814


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 10, 2014)

Stuff with Sykes right now is very important (on the echo link above).


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 10, 2014)

> Mr George: You were at the time prepared to spread idle gossip denigrating the Liverpool fans?
> 
> Mr Sykes: "I was stating what I knew myself and what other police officers had told me." (referring to the pickpockets suggestions)
> 
> ...



That second line is skyes saying that he knew liverpool fans had pickpocketed the dead and he was only saying what he knew to be true- i,e he had witnessed it. He then goes on to say he said no such thing. He's lying right there_ in the inquiry._


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 10, 2014)

Summary of the above _mistakes_.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 10, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Summary of the above _mistakes_.


I'd never previously noticed that the _Echo_ steadfastly refuses to print _The S*n_'s full name


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 10, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> I'd never previously noticed that the _Echo_ steadfastly refuses to print _The S*n_'s full name


Do you know what, i'm so used to people doing that on-line that i'd never noticed either. Fair effin' play.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 10, 2014)

...And it seems to have been doing it for a long time, too:

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=site:liverpoolecho.co.uk "The S*n"&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t

ETA:

Sometimes they do give the bastards a bit of publicity, but mostly when reporting Bad News:

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=site:liverpoolecho.co.uk+"The+Sun"&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 21, 2014)

Cops' written accounts were processed through unit at South Yorkshire Police headquarters dubbed ‘the War Room’:
_
[Lawyer for 22 families] Mr George said: "Does this reflect the mindset of officers in the South Yorkshire Police, 11 days after the disaster, that they are formulating a War Office?


"Didn't Winston Churchill have one of those when we were fighting the Nazis?"


[Former police Inspector] Mr Woodward said he doesn't know why it was called that._​
Woodward also denied that despite his final submission including claims - about fans shouting abuse at him and smelling of drink - which had not featured anywhere in his original statement, no one asked him to lie:

_“I do not recall anybody speaking to me and asking me, telling me, what to put in my recollections.”_​
http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news...inspector-added-comments-hillsborough-7973430

When pushed by George, Woodward admitted that ‘someone must have asked him to clarify it’.

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news...quests---tuesday-7968531#.VEZQFKh1_lY.twitter (see 12:26)


----------



## Cribynkle (Oct 23, 2014)

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/hillsborough-campaigners-criticise-liverpool-university-7978190

Liverpool Uni to award Hogan-Howe an honorary doctorate


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 23, 2014)

Cribynkle said:


> http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/hillsborough-campaigners-criticise-liverpool-university-7978190
> 
> Liverpool Uni to award Hogan-Howe an honorary doctorate


Well, Liverpool Uni 'postponed' the award after the shitstorm the above announcement whipped up.

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news...-university-postpones-honorary-degree-7980185


----------



## elbows (Nov 4, 2014)

More stuff today about the language used by specific police when filing their initial reports. But what I'd like to draw attention to is the same thing as last time I posted on this subject, the deliberate removal of anything that indicated police incompetence.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-29897240



> Elsewhere in his initial statement, Mr Purdy wrote he had "shouted at officers on the pitch, they seemed to be stood there mesmerised, they did not seem to comprehend the enormity of the situation".
> 
> That sentence was also removed from the later version of his statement, as was a reference to Supt Roger Marshall - the officer in charge of fans outside the stadium - being "perplexed".
> 
> Mr Purdy said he was "told by officers who brought it down to be signed that it had been amended" and that "the material that was opinion [and] speculation had been taken out to make it a factual statement".





> He accepted some of what had been removed was fact rather than opinion.
> 
> He was also asked about why many officers' first recollections, including his own, were made on plain paper and neither signed nor dated.
> 
> ...





> The jury was also shown a letter, dated 5 May 1989, from South Yorkshire Police's solicitors Hammond Suddards. It referred to Mr Purdy's initial statement.
> 
> It read that the firm saw his testimony as "a most helpful statement" but wanted him to review it "to reduce the graphic content and render it rather more prosaic and factual".


----------



## DaveCinzano (Nov 6, 2014)

Interesting evidence today from the Sheffield Wednesday CCTV technician Roger Houldsworth, notably about how that evening he had left VHS tapes from 16 recorders in a locked, alarmed cupboard in a locked, guarded CCTV control room - only to return the next morning and discover two of the tapes (both of which from cameras which covered the Leppings Lane area) missing and the cupboard door open.

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news...echnician-tells-hillsborough-inquests-8064902


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 7, 2014)

Who was logged as being at the exact place in the wee small hours?


----------



## sleaterkinney (Dec 17, 2014)

Duckenfield was the grand master of an influential lodge, according to a cop at the inquest today..


----------



## sleaterkinney (Dec 17, 2014)

Follow David Conn on twitter.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Dec 17, 2014)

> Hillsborough match commander David Duckenfield told officers that the kick off should not be delayed under any circumstances during a briefing before the match, the inquests heard.
> 
> A former officer [Maxwell Groome] on duty that day said Chief Supt. Duckenfield and Supt. Bernard Murray were then “conspicuous by their absence” as the disaster unfolded.



http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news...rough-inquests-david-duckenfield-told-8303549

See also liveblog for 2:31pm:

_Mr Mansfield asks if it came to his notice at some point that there was a meeting going on between senior officers.

He says: "Yes, in the portacabins at the car park."

He says that was in the car park of Hammerton Road police station.

He says those portacabins were next to the area office.

He says he believed there were lots of people there but not Roger Marshall.

He says he understood that Mr Duckenfield was there and he was told there was a "substantial meeting".

*He says: "The word was, if I can put it that way, that they were trying initially to blame Mr Marshall for asking for the gate to be opened."*

He says he would have heard that in the days after the disaster and it would have come from someone in the area office, next door.

Mr Groome is asked if the officers had anything in common.

*Mr Groome says: "Being unable to prove it I believe that most of them were masons."*

*He says his belief was that Mr Duckenfield was a grand master of an influential lodge of the Freemasons.*_​


----------



## DaveCinzano (Dec 17, 2014)

sleaterkinney said:


> Duckenfield was the grand master of an influential lodge, according to a cop at the inquest today..


Synchronicity


----------



## DaveCinzano (Dec 17, 2014)

sleaterkinney said:


> Follow David Conn on twitter.


Also the_ Echo_'s @EleanorBarlow


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 18, 2014)

Coroner today:



> "What is clear is that must being a real risk that the inquests will not be completed until the early part of 2016."


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 18, 2014)

What we've known but now on record and with names:

Hillsborough officer bullied into signing doctored statement, inquest hears



> A senior South Yorkshire police officer bullied a constable to sign a doctored statement about the Hillsborough disaster, the new inquest into the deaths of 96 people at the football ground has heard.
> 
> PC Michael Walpole told the inquest that he feared his job would be made “a misery” if he did not sign the amended statement, in which several of his original comments had been deleted, because he had seen other officers hounded out of the police in similar circumstances.
> 
> Walpole said that at the time he believed it was “out of order” for his statement to have been doctored, and he initially refused to sign it. He was then required to go to South Yorkshire police headquarters at Snig Hill in Sheffield to meet a chief inspector, Alan Foster, with two other constables, Peter Smith and Maxwell Groome, who were also refusing to sign their changed statements.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 31, 2014)

The s*n today announced they are re-hiring Kelvin Mackenzie. I'm not joking.


----------



## chandlerp (Dec 31, 2014)

They've given up on sales here in Liverpool then.  Good.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 14, 2015)

Roy Evans kid left his job rather than sells S*N shite.


----------



## ddraig (Jan 14, 2015)

well done that man!


----------



## teqniq (Jan 14, 2015)

Fair play.


----------



## purenarcotic (Jan 14, 2015)

Good man.


----------



## chandlerp (Mar 10, 2015)

Duckenfield is giving evidence today. 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-31802716

He starts by saying he didn't have any experience of planning for football matches and probably wasn't the best choice to be in charge.

He's given a load of meetings on crowd control that he is listed in the minutes as attending. Meetings which dealt with the very issues which were present at Hillsborough on that day.

He says he can't remember attending any of them.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 10, 2015)

Very important point made yesterday - Duckenfield and his legal advisors are on the lookout for any social media based comments that they can use to argue  prejudices any future action against them - so be careful out there folks.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 10, 2015)

He's started his i was the real victim defence - _placed in a position i wasn't best suited to by my evil bosses_. It'll look like an admission and so a victory but is actually a part of what will be his later defence.



> The match commander on the day of the Hillsborough disaster has admitted he was "not the best man for the job".
> 
> Former chief superintendent David Duckenfield told the Hillsborough inquests jury he had "limited experience" of planning for football matches prior to the day of the disaster on 15 April, 1989.


----------



## Voley (Mar 10, 2015)

Yep, it's easy to see his openlng comments as looking hopeful but they're pure damage limitation.

The optimist in me hopes that he must know he's on the ropes, though, to have admitted that much.


----------



## laptop (Mar 10, 2015)

Voley said:


> Yep, it's easy to see his openlng comments as looking hopeful but they're pure damage limitation.



How far has Hollywood culture spread? That is, will he offer to go into rehab to atone for his sins?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 11, 2015)

laptop said:


> How far has Hollywood culture spread? That is, will he offer to go into rehab to atone for his sins?



If he really wants to display humility and pretend to atone for his sins, shouldn't he at least be offered the option of crucifixion?


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 11, 2015)

Live reporting on Duckenfield here today - he seems either genuinely all over the shop or taking part in a strategy to appear so.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 11, 2015)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-31821211



> The match commander on the day of the Hillsborough disaster has admitted lying about fans forcing an exit gate open to enter the ground.
> 
> Families of the 96 supporters who died gasped as David Duckenfield told the inquests: "It was a grave mistake and I apologise profusely."
> 
> ...




Blimey, wasn't expecting that.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 11, 2015)

Part of the play - _placed in position is wasn't ready for by evil superiors, i'm the real victim, my burden at guilt for decades..._


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 11, 2015)

May explain how it happened to a large degree. Doesn't explain why he chose to take a very active part in the cover-up...


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 11, 2015)

From the excellent echo coverage (Eleanor Barlow and others have done brilliant work here):

The coroner asks if he lied because he thought his instruction to open the gate had caused what had happened.

Mr Duckenfield says no.

He says: "I think in a crisis, and probably in this shock and in stress, I said something I deeply regret."

He says: "I'm a very honest person. I don't tell lies. I don't mislead.

"I set very, very high standards, not only in myself, but my colleagues in the service and my family.

"No one, but no one can understand my behaviour that day - least of all me."


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 11, 2015)

This was the friendly side btw, the family lawyers are on him tmw.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 11, 2015)

Ta


----------



## sojourner (Mar 12, 2015)

Gobsmacked at his admitting the lie!


----------



## laptop (Mar 12, 2015)

I'm racking my brains to remember what was odd about Duckett's appointment. I've searched the thread.

He was brought in after the experienced superior was involved in a "prank" - a fake firearms incident. 

But was there something else?


----------



## Fedayn (Mar 12, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> From the excellent echo coverage (Eleanor Barlow and others have done brilliant work here):
> 
> The coroner asks if he lied because he thought his instruction to open the gate had caused what had happened.
> 
> ...


 
So, not long after he admits he lied over the order to open the gate he claims he's very honest and doesn't tell lies.... Okaaayyyy......


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Mar 12, 2015)

What has he be given/protected from to carry the can?

Louis MacNeice


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 12, 2015)

Louis MacNeice said:


> What has he be given/protected from to carry the can?
> 
> Louis MacNeice


...or who. 

I can see the emerging defence - _i was not qualified i was placed here by those above_. Those above saying _we had inadequate information and a limited time frame in which to act, with the info available this was the best choice _etc. Which leaves those whose job it is to monitor internal staff performance/expectations of roles etc


----------



## tommers (Mar 12, 2015)

Still getting "liverpool fans need to admit that trying to get in without tickets caused the crush". 

I'm struggling to think of what needs to happen before people change this.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Mar 12, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> ...or who.
> 
> I can see the emerging defence - _i was not qualified i was placed here by those above_. Those above saying _we had inadequate information and a limited time frame in which to act, with the info available this was the best choice _etc. Which leaves those whose job it is to monitor internal staff performance/expectations of roles etc



Yep it certainly comes across as a sacrificial exercise designed to protect the actual movers and shakers of the SYP and beyond.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 12, 2015)

Amazing reading the reporting of Duckenfield's testrimony today - crystal clear on things favourable to him, _can't recall_ on everything else. He's also rowed back to saying that he lied by omission today rather than just lying.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 12, 2015)

He's turning all kantian:




> Mr Duckenfield accepts there may be an inconsistency in what he said today and what he said at the inquiry.
> 
> He says: "I think in life people don't lie, people don't mislead, but over a period there can be inconsistencies which are quite genuine, just because of space and time."


----------



## tommers (Mar 12, 2015)

People don't lie. 

Great attitude for a policeman.


----------



## laptop (Mar 12, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> He's turning all kantian:





^^^^ Not a lie.


----------



## TopCat (Mar 12, 2015)

What prompted the admission of lying about the gate order?


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 12, 2015)

TopCat said:


> What prompted the admission of lying about the gate order?


Self-preservation and pre-planned strategy.


----------



## sojourner (Mar 12, 2015)

He's wriggling to fuck isn't he?  Jesus that live feed is by turns excruciating, disturbing and infuriating.

He's absolutely not gonna admit anything near negligence.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Mar 12, 2015)

sojourner said:


> He's wriggling to fuck isn't he?  Jesus that live feed is by turns excruciating, disturbing and infuriating.
> 
> He's absolutely not gonna admit anything near negligence.



That's the deal; I lied but I'm not responsible. I hope it was worth it...if it could ever be.

Louis MacNeice


----------



## sojourner (Mar 12, 2015)

Ha - you're bang on butchers

Mr Duckenfield says he thinks Peter Wright is responsible for wrongly giving him the promotion.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 12, 2015)

Note here, he can refuse to answer any questions in this inquiry that he feels may potentially incriminate him. So what he does answer is what he and his legal team (i think we're paying for that btw) think can be helpful to him - immediately and as regards later prosecution. Note whose questioning brought out the admission of lying to kelly. It wasn't he families lawyers.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 12, 2015)

sojourner said:


> Ha - you're bang on butchers
> 
> Mr Duckenfield says he thinks Peter Wright is responsible for wrongly giving him the promotion.


Mapped all out from his fist move yeserday...classic stuff. Fucking hell.


----------



## sojourner (Mar 12, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> Note here, he can refuse to answer any questions in this inquiry that he feels may potentially incriminate him. So what he does answer is what he and his legal team (i think we're paying for that btw) think can be helpful to him - immediately and as regards later prosecution. Note whose questioning brought out the admission of lying to kelly. It wasn't he families lawyers.


That not answering thing is very handy to him.


----------



## Fedayn (Mar 12, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> Self-preservation and pre-planned strategy.


 
Not to mention that it had already been released into the public arena....


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 12, 2015)

Menon has def got some coppers prepared to call Duckenfield a liar over a range of issues. Just read those questions, he's got some stuff lined up behind it.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 12, 2015)

Thanks for the updates and insight ba; just read his shite that's he's been spouting today, what a fucking cunt.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 13, 2015)

_Cue the music - _Mike Mansfield's turn at Duckenfield.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 13, 2015)

Unbelievably, Duckenfield is today putting the blame back on the liverpool fans for his many incompetencies failings and fatal behaviour as none of them would have happened if, as he claims, the liverpool fans hadn't turned up late drunk and ticketless.



> He [duckenfield] says: "If Merseyside Police had been more forthcoming with the knowledge that their former chief constable gave to the inquests, that it was common knowledge that Liverpool fans arrived late, having had a drink, and expected to get in at the last minute, if I had had that knowledge I might have been able to act differently,."
> 
> Mr Mansfield says: "But that's not what happened on this day. This wasn't fans turning up late, having got into a drunken state was it?
> 
> Mr Duckenfield says: "I think you and I will have to disagree on that."


----------



## tommers (Mar 13, 2015)

Yes, I saw that.  But previously he'd said this:



> The court is now shown some video clips of the situation at the Leppings Lane turnstiles.
> 
> The first is from 2.06pm on the day, then 2,11pm, then 2.13pm, 2.14pm, 2.16pm and 2.30pm.
> 
> ...



Is that not a contradiction?


----------



## Favelado (Mar 13, 2015)

That's got to be a fuck up on his part. There's no way that will play well for him. It'll get smashed to pieces.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 13, 2015)

He seems all over the shop today, maybe it's mansfield or the cumulative pressure but i think he's going (or being taken) very far off piste here. His sneering arrogance is still there though - suggesting that "with hindsight and the opportunity to reflect, we possibly could have done better." - that a dig right there at the families.  Meaning: _Possibly could have done better but you know, these people - and you - were they worth the effort? Are you?_


----------



## sojourner (Mar 13, 2015)

Mansfield's seriously ripping him apart. Fucking well done!


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 13, 2015)

I think i better stop there bearing in mind the warnings from the families side about commenting on his evidence.


----------



## tommers (Mar 13, 2015)

> He is asked if he deceived Mr Kelly, Mr Kirton and Mr Mackrell.
> 
> He says: "I have admitted my failings, sir."
> 
> ...


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 13, 2015)

Mansfield finished, adjourned for weekend -  long quote coming as really needs to be read in full:


Mr Duckenfield accepts he didn't use the opportunity of the Taylor inquiry to make the "full and frank concessions" he made to this jury.

He accepts he didn't use the opportunity of the last inquests.

He says he wasn't invited to participate in the Stuart Smith scrutiny.

Mr Mansfield says: "Over the years that followed - that's from 1989 right up until these inquests..."

John Beggs, representing Mr Duckenfield, stands to object.

Mr Mansfield continues: "You chose to remain silent about all of those matters you have told this jury."

Mr Duckenfield says: "I didn't trust the press to put forward my thoughts or anybody else with the truth and honesty that I wanted."

He adds: "When the panel report was published, I hid myself away and could not bear the word Hillsborough and could not bear to think about it.

"I hope you understand this: I hoped it would go away.

"But then two years ago, I had to force myself to look at matters and, as a result, I could only do so with the assistance of dcotors."

He adds: "I dug my head in the sand, didn't admit things to myself, but I am now very much older, very much wiser, and very much more understanding of the events of the day and have decided to tell the whole truth."

Mr Mansfield suggests he has known the whole truth from the beginning

Mr Duckenfield says: "On the day, I was traumatised and, like many things in life, you only remember the good days, and sometimes sadly and unfortunately, you bury the bad. As far as I'm concerned, I buried the bad to survive."

Mr Mansfield says: "What about the families? Did you think about them?"

Mr Duckenfield says: "Sir, it is now that I have thought very seriously about the families.

"I've seen a video of late, a very distressing video, and for the first time, I have seen what it means to a mother to lose a loved one, to lose a loved one, not only in these tragic circumstances, but to have to say their goodbyes so unexpectedly, in a gymnasium, on a dirty floor, cuddling that person tearfully, and you can't share with that person your grief, your sorrow and your sadness."

Mr Duckenfield says: "To the families, I say this, I am terribly sorry. It has now dawned on me what it means to you, and I am dreadfully sorry."


----------



## tommers (Mar 13, 2015)

I think that was a genuine apology.  

And a really, really sad image.


----------



## ddraig (Mar 13, 2015)

fuck him, he lied for years, decades
the only things that matter are the truth and justice for the 96


----------



## tommers (Mar 13, 2015)

ddraig said:


> fuck him, he lied for years, decades
> the only things that matter are the truth and justice for the 96


I don't disagree. I just think that was genuine. Doesn't mean he should be forgiven or not have to deal with the choices he made.  Or anything else.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 18, 2015)

Eleanor Barlow still doing great work following the inquiry live, her live reporting today is here -Duckenfield on his 7th day now.Here's her summary of yesterday:


* Mr Duckenfield accepted that he “froze” after ordering exit gates to be opened*


*Admitting his failings caused the deaths of 96 people was the “most difficult” time of Mr Duckenfield's life*
*The match commander told the inquests he was drinking whisky in the mornings in the lead up to the public inquiry into the disaste
*


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 31, 2015)

I fucking knew duckenfield would make sure someone else paid.

South Yorkshire Police get £10.7m for Hillsborough costs



> South Yorkshire Police has been awarded £10.7m to cover legal fees incurred from the new Hillsborough inquests.
> The current chief constable along with eight former and serving officers have been called to give evidence.
> South Yorkshire Police and Crime Commissioner Alan Billings said the sum was "substantially less" than required.


----------



## TopCat (Apr 1, 2015)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-32114872


----------



## JTG (Apr 15, 2015)

26 years

RIP


----------



## worcesterian (Apr 15, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> I fucking knew duckenfield would make sure someone else paid.
> 
> South Yorkshire Police get £10.7m for Hillsborough costs


It amounts to an  average of over  1 million per officer. All that at a time when legal aid for so many types of case has been slashed or no longer available.	 Is it really needed to  hire lawyers  and teams that cost that much. They are not  on trial;. Its an Inquest


----------



## brogdale (Apr 30, 2015)

Bettison at the inquiry today to call Barry a liar. What an odious fucker.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 29, 2015)

Via Neil Wilby - @Neil_Wilby


----------



## teqniq (Jun 29, 2015)

Well it would be nice if it came out of their benevolent fund or whatever it is. But this is always the trouble with cases which involve the state or agents thereof, the public _we_ always pay for their defence, even though it could quite reasonably argued that it is not in the public interest to do so.


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Jul 18, 2015)

Interesting story in this week's Liverpool Echo quoting Andy Burnham MP saying that Blair blocked an inquiry to preserve his servile relationship to the Murdoch press.


> Mr Burnham told Westminster journalists that an official inquiry could have been set up earlier but the Blair government did not want to offend Murdoch’s News International, the publisher of the Sun newspaper.


 http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/tony-blair-not-order-hillsborough-9658130


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 16, 2015)

We're moving back into the meat of things now - close attention back on please comrades:

Hillsborough inquests: sisters 'could have been saved' with prompt medical treatment



> Vicki and Sarah Hicks, who died after crush at Sheffield Wednesday’s football ground, could have been revived if medics had reached them sooner, inquest told



Remember, one ambulance allowed in, police blocked the rest. One single paramedic got in.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 16, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> We're moving back into the meat of things now - close attention back on please comrades:
> 
> Hillsborough inquests: sisters 'could have been saved' with prompt medical treatment
> 
> ...


Fuck, this is the crux no?


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 16, 2015)

TopCat said:


> Fuck, this is the crux no?


Many things that called be crux - wait for the coming days testimony, won't just be these two poor girls. Horrible stuff coming i'm afraid.


----------



## Favelado (Nov 16, 2015)

The original inquest's cut off time totally symptomatic of the cover up that was in place. We've known for a long time that people were still alive and could have been saved. Glad to see this being recognised.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 16, 2015)

awww


----------



## laptop (Nov 17, 2015)

TopCat said:


> awww



WTF?


----------



## Voley (Nov 17, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> Hillsborough inquests: sisters 'could have been saved' with prompt medical treatment


Feel a bit sick reading that. Fucking hell.


butchersapron said:


> Horrible stuff coming i'm afraid.



Yep, it's gonna be really fucking grim. Necessarily so, obviously, but it's still painful to read even after all this time.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 17, 2015)

This the echo's thing on what's happening today. It's going to be quite detailed, so be prepared.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Nov 17, 2015)

Jesus, just gets worse and worse


----------



## Voley (Nov 17, 2015)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Jesus, just gets worse and worse


Aye. More optimistically, it looks like a thorough investigation this time, though. Fuck I really hope the right thing finally gets done now.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Nov 17, 2015)

wrong thread, sorry.


----------



## Voley (Nov 17, 2015)

Epic post, Dave.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Dec 15, 2015)

Inquest hearings continue today, looking at the deaths of five of the 96:

Kevin Tyrrell, 15
Stuart Thompson, 17
Stephen O'Neill, 17
Barry Glover, 27
Stephen Harrison, 31

Hillsborough inquests updates: Tuesday 15 December 2015


----------



## Fedayn (Apr 4, 2016)

Some stuff from today

Charl JFT96 Hennessy (@charlhennessy1) on Twitter

On September 13 2012, Mr Bettison put out a statement following the publication of the Hillsborough Independent Panel report.
3:29 PM - 4 Apr 2016




 *Charl JFT96 Hennessy*
@charlhennessy1 
24m
In it he said: “Fans’ behaviour, to the extent it was relevant at all, made the job of police harder than it needed to be.”
View conversation·


 *Charl JFT96 Hennessy*
@charlhennessy1 
23m
He said it was hurried and ill thought through.“I regret putting our that statement in the terms I did on the day that I did.”
View conversation·


 *Charl JFT96 Hennessy*
@charlhennessy1 
23m
He then put out a clarifying statement two days later.





*Charl JFT96 Hennessy*
@charlhennessy1  
on June 9 1989, Mr Jones wrote to the Treasury Solicitor about the behaviour and alcohol consumption of Everton fans at the semi-final at
3:44 PM - 4 Apr 2016



 *Charl JFT96 Hennessy*
@charlhennessy1 
11m
Aston Villa ground on April 15, 1989.He said: “The accounts that I have read on Liverpool supporters’ behaviour at Hillsborough shows some
View conversation·


 *Charl JFT96 Hennessy*
@charlhennessy1 
11m
remarkable coincidences which may indicate some Liverpool characteristics.”
View conversation·


 *Charl JFT96 Hennessy*
@charlhennessy1 
10m
He said he mentioned that because Lord Justice Taylor was anxious to learn as much about football as he could.


----------



## belboid (Apr 6, 2016)

Jury out - Jury out at Hillsborough inquests - BBC News


----------



## brogdale (Apr 6, 2016)

Jury retired to consider conclusions.


----------



## William of Walworth (Apr 22, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Jury retired to consider conclusions.




And no news at all since 6th April? Are the jury still considering?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 22, 2016)

Of course they are. Not quite sure what sort of update you expect.


----------



## William of Walworth (Apr 22, 2016)

The last thing I'd expect is any sort of running sequence of updates, I'm still a bit surpised at the length of time needed though. It's been over ten days. I'm highly aware of the sheer complexity of it all, but still.


----------



## Athos (Apr 22, 2016)

William of Walworth said:


> The last thing I'd expect is any sort of running sequence of updates, I'm still a bit surpised at the length of time needed though. It's been over ten days. I'm highly aware of the sheer complexity of it all, but still.


Not surprising that it takes some time to process the vast quantity of evidence they've heard.


----------



## chandlerp (Apr 22, 2016)

The hearings were over two years, juries sometimes take two weeks to decide on a hearing that's only a few days long.  They've also got a number of counts to consider, each of which will require serious consideration and weighing of evidence.  Quite happy to wait a year for a fair verdict.


----------



## William of Walworth (Apr 25, 2016)

Athos said:


> Not surprising that it takes some time to process the vast quantity of evidence they've heard.



Very fair point. Not for me to get impatient

Taking those points from chandlerp on board as well.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 25, 2016)

Decision reached. Will hear it tmw at 11.


----------



## Athos (Apr 25, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Decision reached. Will hear it tmw at 11.


It will be too late for some, but let's hope that, finally, there'll be something that moves us closer to justice.


----------



## dessiato (Apr 25, 2016)

Let's hope it is the start of proper justice for all.


----------



## chandlerp (Apr 25, 2016)

Of the 14 verdicts to be announced, 13 are unanimous and 1 is majority.


----------



## Red Cat (Apr 25, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Decision reached. Will hear it tmw at 11.



Already? I wasn't expecting that. I feel very nervous.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 25, 2016)

Red Cat said:


> Already? I wasn't expecting that. I feel very nervous.


I don't how to feel really. There are 14 verdicts and all with the accompanying notes. I feel it's well quick - which could mean they've overwhelmingly accepted the right side. But, i'm worried.


----------



## Red Cat (Apr 25, 2016)

Yeh, me too.


----------



## MAD-T-REX (Apr 25, 2016)

I wouldn't read anything into it. Juries in long trials form their views as the case progresses and aren't starting from scratch when they retire. The phone hacking trial lasted eight months and the jury was out for less than a fortnight.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 26, 2016)

Right, we're off very shortly.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 26, 2016)

14 questions. 6 is key.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 26, 2016)

1 - yes


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 26, 2016)

2 - Yes


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 26, 2016)

3- Yes


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 26, 2016)

4- Yes


----------



## DaveCinzano (Apr 26, 2016)

From _Liverpool Echo_ liveblog:

1) Do you agree with the following statement which is intended to summarise the basic facts of the disaster: “Ninety-six people died as a result of the Disaster at Hillsborough Stadium on 15 April 1989 due to crushing in the central pens of the Leppings Lane terrace, following the admission of a large number of supporters to the Stadium through exit gates.”

*The forewoman confirms the answer was yes.*


2) Was there any error or omission in police planning and preparation for the semi-final on April 15, 1989, which caused or contributed to the dangerous situation that developed on the day of the match?

*The forewoman confirms the answer was YES *

*The jury said: “The jury feel that there were major omissions in the 1989 operational order, including specific instructions for managing the crowd outside the LL turnstiles, specific instructions as to how the pens were to be filled and monitored, specific instructions as to who would be responsible for the monitoring of the pens.*


3) Was there any error or omission in policing on the day of the match which caused or contributed to a dangerous situation developing at the Leppings Lane turnstiles?
*
The jury answer is YES. 

The jury said: “Police response to the increasing crowds at Leppings Lane was slow and uncoordinated. The road closure and sweep of fans exacerbated the situation.”

They said no filter cordons were used, no contingency plans made and atempts to close perimeter gates were too late.

*
4) Was there any error or omission by commanding officers which caused or contributed to the crush on the terrace?
*
The jury answered YES.*

*The jury said: “Commanding officers should have ordered the closure of the central tunnel before the opening of gate C was requested as pens three and four were full.”*

*They said commanding officers should have asked for figures and failed to recognise pens were at capacity.


*


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 26, 2016)

5 - Yes


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 26, 2016)

6 - Yes!!
Got you you fuckers.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Apr 26, 2016)

5) When the order was given to open the exit gates at the Leppings Lane end of the stadium, was there any error or omission by the commanding officers in the control box which caused or contributed to the crush on the terrace?

*The jury answered YES. *

*The jury said: “Commanding officers did not inform officers in the inner concourse prior to the opening of gate C.”
They said they failed to consider where fans would go and to consider the closure of the tunnel.*


6) Are you satisfied, so that you are sure, that those who died in the disaster were unlawfully killed?

*The jury answered YES*

*Cheers and applause in the court.

The forewoman says it was a majority decision.

She says seven agreed.
*


----------



## Ted Striker (Apr 26, 2016)

Unlawfully killed - yes


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 26, 2016)

7 -  No (that's good)


----------



## Ted Striker (Apr 26, 2016)

No (behaviour of fans)


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Apr 26, 2016)

Get Duckenfield in the fucking dock!


----------



## DaveCinzano (Apr 26, 2016)

7) Was there any behaviour on the part of the football supporters which caused or contributed to the dangerous situation at the Leppings Lane turnstiles?”

*The jury answered NO.*

*Claps again from the gallery.*

*They were asked if behaviour may have caused or contributed.*

*They answered NO.*


----------



## redsquirrel (Apr 26, 2016)

Majority decision on 6  (seven agreed)


----------



## purenarcotic (Apr 26, 2016)

Finally.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 26, 2016)

8 -  Yes (good)


----------



## DaveCinzano (Apr 26, 2016)

8) Were there any features of the design, construction and layout of the stadium which you consider were dangerous or defective and which caused or contributed to the disaster?

*Jury answered YES. *

*The jury said: “Design and layout of the crush barriers in pen three and four were not fully compliant with the Green Guide.”*

*They said the lack of dedicated turnstiles meant capacities could not be monitored and there were too few turnstiles. Signage to the side pens was inadequate.*


9) Was there any error or omission in the safety certification and oversight of Hillsborough Stadium that caused or contributed to the disaster?
*
The jury answered YES. *

*They said the safety certificate was never amended to reflect changes at the Leppings Lane end. The capacity figures were incorrectly calculated and the safety certificate had not been reissued since 1986.
*


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 26, 2016)

9 - Yes (good)


----------



## tommers (Apr 26, 2016)

wow.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Apr 26, 2016)

10) Was there any error or omission by Sheffield Wednesday and its staff in the management of the stadium and/or preparation for the semi-final match on April 15, 1989, which caused or contributed to the dangerous situation that developed on the day of the match?

*The jury answered YES*

*The jury said: “The club did not approve the plans for dedicated turnstiles to each pen.”*

*The club did not agree contingency plans with police and there was inaccurate information on the tickets.*


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 26, 2016)

10 - Yes (good)


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 26, 2016)

11 - No (weds off the hook slightly)


----------



## DaveCinzano (Apr 26, 2016)

11) Was there any error or omission by Sheffield Wednesday and its staff on April 15, 1989, which caused or contributed to the dangerous situation that developed at the Leppings Lane turnstiles and in the west terrace?

*The jury answered NO.*

*They were asked if any error or omission MAY have contributed or caused the dangerous situation.*

*They answered YES.*

*The jury said: “Club officials were aware of the huge numbers of fans still outside the LL turnstiles at 2.40pm. They should have requested a delayed kick off at this point.*


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 26, 2016)

12 - Yes (engineers on hook)


----------



## DaveCinzano (Apr 26, 2016)

12) Should Eastwood and Partners (structural engineers) have done more to detect and advise on any unsafe or unsatisfactory features of Hillsborough Stadium which caused or contributed to the disaster?

*The jury answered YES*

*They said: “Eastwoods did not make their own calculations when they became consultants for Sheffield Wednesday FC.”*

*They said calculations were incorrect and Eastwoods failed to recalculate capacities and update the safety certificate after 1986.*

*They said Eastwoods failed to recognise the removal of crush barriers could create a dangerous situation.*


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 26, 2016)

13 - Yes - police contributed to deaths - another key one.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 26, 2016)




----------



## butchersapron (Apr 26, 2016)

14 - yes - ambulance service right on hook.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 26, 2016)

This is why they fought so hard to keep it away from decent people.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Apr 26, 2016)

13) After the crush in the west terrace had begun to develop, was there any error or omission by the police which caused or contributed to the loss of lives in the disaster?

*The jury answered YES.*

*They said the police delayed calling a major incident.*

*There was a lack of communication, coordination and command and control.*


14) After the crush in the west terrace had begun to develop, was there any error or omission by the ambulance service (SYMAS) which caused or contributed to the loss of lives in the disaster?

*The jury answered YES.*

*They said ambulance officers at the scene failed to ascertain the nature of the problem and the failure to call a major incident led to delays in responses to the emergency.*


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 26, 2016)

Wait till you see what they have planed for the trial.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 26, 2016)

Hillsborough inquests jury says 96 victims were unlawfully killed


----------



## editor (Apr 26, 2016)

Just to repeat:

*Hillsborough inquests jury says 96 victims were unlawfully killed*


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Apr 26, 2016)

Scum


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 26, 2016)

As comprehensive as could possibly be. I worried all night for nothing.


----------



## Fedayn (Apr 26, 2016)

Just yes, finally.

Am gonna go off and cry....


----------



## redsquirrel (Apr 26, 2016)

Fantastic news


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Apr 26, 2016)

Fedayn said:


> Just yes, finally.
> 
> Am gonna go off and cry....



"You'll never walk alone" sung outside court set me off. Fuck, what an emotional morning!

Justice at last, & criminal prosecutions.


----------



## Dogsauce (Apr 26, 2016)

Let's have the bastards for Orgreave too.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Apr 26, 2016)

Really happy for the families. Hope people will be brought to justice now.


----------



## belboid (Apr 26, 2016)

Bloody marvellous. A day I thought would never come.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 26, 2016)

Think i may give the lamposts another stickering on my way to work later.


----------



## Dogsauce (Apr 26, 2016)

Which papers going to go with 'The Truth' for their headline tomorrow? I doubt Murdoch has the brass neck for it, but I think one or more of the others won't be able to resist.


----------



## teqniq (Apr 26, 2016)

Just wow.


----------



## Favelado (Apr 26, 2016)

Justice at last. An emotional day.


----------



## editor (Apr 26, 2016)

Scum


----------



## Voley (Apr 26, 2016)

Fucking hell. 

I honestly never thought I'd see this day. I'm speechless tbh.

YNWA.


----------



## gawkrodger (Apr 26, 2016)

Great news


----------



## dessiato (Apr 26, 2016)

Let's hope this is the end of the beginning and full justice will now follow.


----------



## redchris (Apr 26, 2016)

Finally, justice.  Now those responsible need to be held to account for their actions.

YNWA


----------



## TopCat (Apr 26, 2016)

Tearful at this news.


----------



## Libertad (Apr 26, 2016)

27 fucking years, a generation ago and only now can justice run its full course.


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 26, 2016)

TopCat said:


> Tearful at this news.


Me too. Have to hold it together in front of a bunch of kids who have no idea. And it just snowed, which made it more poignant.


----------



## treelover (Apr 26, 2016)

Sadly still plenty on the local forums here in Sheff, wednesday fans mostly, blaming the fans in part.

Oh, and Liverpool as a 'victim city' 

The banner they used at the ceremony at the Cathedral was made by people at my Arts Management course, families and footballers came to see it, heartbreaking.


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 26, 2016)

Never thought that real justice would ever be seen, thoughts with those who lost loved ones. The weight is slowly being lifted.
Now drag those responsible in and make them pay.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Apr 26, 2016)

I'm in Liverpool right now. There's people openly crying in the street and hugging each other.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 26, 2016)

Just superb.


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 26, 2016)

treelover said:


> Sadly still plenty on the local forums here in Sheff, wednesday fans mostly, blaming the fans in part.



You may be surprised how many Wednesday fans are coppers!


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 26, 2016)

Sprocket. said:


> You may be surprised how many Wednesday fans are coppers!


no i wouldn't


----------



## tommers (Apr 26, 2016)

treelover said:


> Sadly still plenty on the local forums here in Sheff, wednesday fans mostly, blaming the fans in part.



Yep, same on ours as well.  Some people are never going to change their minds sadly.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 26, 2016)

grand news


----------



## redchris (Apr 26, 2016)

treelover said:


> Sadly still plenty on the local forums here in Sheff, wednesday fans mostly, blaming the fans in part.



I think many still hold this view.  i spent 27 years arguing with my old man who somehow believed, and deep down probably still does, that our fans were largely responsible.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 26, 2016)

You can only win against those it's possible to win against. And this is a victory. It shows that challenging power does work if you do it right. And they did it right. By christ did they do it right.


----------



## sojourner (Apr 26, 2016)

Wish I'd taken tomorrow off now. There's gonna be one fuck of a party in town tonight! 

Wow. Fucking wow.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 26, 2016)

27 years. Thats some fight. Result.


----------



## gawkrodger (Apr 26, 2016)

How are we, the Hillsborough families, still standing? We took the power back | Julie Fallon



> And there lies our real legacy, our real headline in history: “Hillsborough – the real truth”. We have paved the way for other ordinary, decent people in this country, who also find themselves in extraordinary circumstances of someone else’s making, to tread the path to truth and justice. We have swept the road before you, heaved boulders, checked for mines, swallowed dust, buried our dead at the roadside and, at times, crawled on our hands and knees, so that the path is now a little easier for you to walk on


----------



## The Octagon (Apr 26, 2016)

treelover said:


> Sadly still plenty on the local forums here in Sheff, wednesday fans mostly, blaming the fans in part.
> 
> Oh, and Liverpool as a 'victim city'



I think for some of them the lies have been repeated so often they're not interested in the truth (smoke without fire, etc), some of them are probably reflexively defending the club (even though it's not the same people and they should be able to separate the two).

Some are just twats.

As a Wednesday fan myself, this is great news and hopefully the beginning of real justice for the families. I also hope South Yorks Police are taken to the cleaners 

JFT96


----------



## redchris (Apr 26, 2016)

Cameron trying to score political points with his trite tweets.  Fear not David, we won't forget this

Hillsborough families demand David Cameron explains insensitive comments


----------



## DaveCinzano (Apr 26, 2016)

CPS statement:

CPS statement following Hillsborough inquests verdict


----------



## marty21 (Apr 26, 2016)

Huge respect for the family and friends of the 96 who campaigned for justice for so long .


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 26, 2016)

DaveCinzano said:


> CPS statement:
> 
> CPS statement following Hillsborough inquests verdict


So that's the end of the year at the very earliest - and the police and others have made dragging things out the basis for their involvement in Resolve. So we're looking at another year at best i think.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 26, 2016)

Powerful summation of what this means for the families...


----------



## Libertad (Apr 26, 2016)

redchris said:


> Cameron trying to score political points with his trite tweets.  Fear not David, we won't forget this
> 
> Hillsborough families demand David Cameron explains insensitive comments




10th September 2012 the cunt was reported as saying this:



> DAVID Cameron was yesterday criticised for insensitive comments he made about Hillsborough.
> 
> The Prime Minister said victims’ relatives would never get over the 1989 disaster and likened them to a “blind man, in a dark room, looking for a black cat that isn’t there”.
> 
> ...


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 26, 2016)

Libertad said:


> 10th September 2012 the cunt was reported as saying this:


2 days later the panel reported and he offered an apology on behalf of the state and some people bought it.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 26, 2016)

chilango - remember this?


----------



## Winot (Apr 26, 2016)

Statement from South Yorkshire police just now on BBC R4 bizarrely hinting that the problem in 1989 was lack of modern communications systems. Andy Burnham currently ripping a large one in the police.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 26, 2016)

To his credit Burnham has just thrown today's SYP 'apology' back in their face and reminded R4 listeners of their contesting and adversarial attitudes up to today. Well said.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 26, 2016)

brogdale said:


> To his credit Burnham has just thrown today's SYP 'apology' back in their face and reminded R4 listeners of their contesting and adversarial attitudes up to today. Well said.


You  need only see what they offered in the inquest:


> Duckenfield’s own barrister, John Beggs QC, an advocate instructed by police forces nationwide, pressed the case most forcefully that supporters had misbehaved, persistently introducing as context into his questioning notorious previous episodes of football hooliganism, his manner often repellent to the families attending.
> 
> But Beggs was not alone. The present-day South Yorkshire police force itself and the Police Federation also argued that Liverpool supporters outside the Leppings Lane end could be found to have contributed to the disaster because “a significant minority” were alleged to have been drunk and “non-compliant” with police orders to move back. Yet survivors gave evidence of chaos at the Leppings Lane approach, no atmosphere of drunkenness or misbehaviour, and no meaningful police activity to make orderly queueing possible in that nasty space.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 26, 2016)

...and calls for prosecutions.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 26, 2016)

95 died or could have died after 3.15.

Everything is overturned. Nothing left standing now.


----------



## chilango (Apr 26, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> chilango - remember this?
> 
> View attachment 86216



I don't. Before my time. I'm still trying to emotionally process the news right now.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 26, 2016)

brogdale said:


> ...and calls for prosecutions.


David Duckinfield will be desperately looking for Lord Janner's doctor's contact details.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Apr 26, 2016)

South Yorks Police statement:



> I want to make it absolutely clear that we unequivocally accept the verdict of unlawful killing and the wider findings reached by the jury in the Hillsborough Inquests.
> 
> On 15th April 1989, South Yorkshire Police got the policing of the FA cup semi-final at Hillsborough catastrophically wrong. It was and still is the biggest disaster in British sporting history. That day 96 people died and the lives of many others were changed forever. The force failed the victims and failed their families.
> 
> ...



Chief Constable responds to Hillsborough verdicts | South Yorkshire Police


----------



## Libertad (Apr 26, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> 2 days later the panel reported and he offered an apology on behalf of the state and some people bought it.



Not in this house.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 26, 2016)

If you want a textbook example of how ruling class attitudes and the collusion of several state agencies can lead to the death of 96 working class fans being unacknowledged for over a generation, this is (obviously) it. But thankfully it's also an example of what can be achieved if you dig in, keep going and fight for justice. Fantastic result for the families and community, even if this isn't quite the final battle.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 26, 2016)

I have two thoughts:

1. It moves me to tears to think about the families fighting for 27 years. 27 years. I cannot put into words the respect I have for them.

2. 27 years for justice is a disgrace - the prosecutions of the police and others involved needs to take weeks and nor years

JFT96


----------



## brogdale (Apr 26, 2016)

brogdale said:


> ...and calls for prosecutions.


Some transcript of that Burnham interview...


> The question I’m asking is, how did something this simple take so long? ...
> 
> (On the verdicts): It exceeds anything that we could have expected. But it’s only what they deserve. This is justice for them. Their loved ones. Tonight, for the first time in 27 years, can rest in peace...
> 
> ...


Sound.


----------



## TopCat (Apr 26, 2016)

In a meeting now with loads of plod. A single derogatory word and its toe to toe.


----------



## Athos (Apr 26, 2016)

I'm choked up. Never thought I'd see the day.


----------



## killer b (Apr 26, 2016)

DaveCinzano said:


> South Yorks Police statement:
> 
> 
> 
> > These inquests have been the longest inquests in British legal history


I wonder how that happened?


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Apr 26, 2016)

Tory who labelled Hillsborough fans 'tanked up yobs' refuses to apologise



> *Despite the inquest finding that 96 victims were unlawfully killed, Margaret Thatcher's former press secretary would not apologise *



Cunt!


----------



## laptop (Apr 26, 2016)

Wilf said:


> David Duckinfield will be desperately looking for Lord Janner's doctor's contact details.



Er... isn't the fact that he can't find them sufficient evidence?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 26, 2016)

This is the woman who runs the CPS and will decide if there are prosecutions:



> Hillsborough families today condemned the appointment of the country’s new top prosecutor after it emerged she rejected relatives’ pleas for a fresh inquest into the disaster.
> 
> Furious campaigners said it “beggars belief” that Alison Saunders had been appointed as Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP).
> 
> As the woman in charge of the Crown Prosecution Service, Ms Saunders will ultimately decide who should face criminal charges as part of the fresh police investigation into the Hillsborough disaster announced by Home Secretary Theresa May in December.


----------



## gosub (Apr 26, 2016)




----------



## Fedayn (Apr 26, 2016)

As an aside, back in 2010 when he was Minister for Sport, Jerremy Hunt claimed Liverpool fans caused their own deaths..... There is no level to which he won't stoop.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 26, 2016)

Excellent lawyers statements in live pressa on R5 now.
Very powerfully expressed.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 26, 2016)

Here's the official court type thing (pdf).


----------



## Wilf (Apr 26, 2016)

Dogsauce said:


> Let's have the bastards for Orgreave too.


This puts it in the context of Orgreave:
Hillsborough disaster: deadly mistakes and lies that lasted decades


----------



## Flanflinger (Apr 26, 2016)

In late May 1989 I spent a Friday evening in The Trafalger pub in Trafalgar square watching the Arsenal  Lverpool game on tv. Arsenal won the league with the last kick of the season. During our celebrations I met a scouser called Dave Liddle and through his tears he told of his friend who had died at Hillsborough. Dave passed away 2 years ago from cancer and through all the years we knew eachother he never relented in his fight for the world to know the truth.

My thoughts are with Dave and all those who have fought for this day.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 26, 2016)

Wilf said:


> This puts it in the context of Orgreave:
> Hillsborough disaster: deadly mistakes and lies that lasted decades


hard reading, still. And for what were these lies told?



> Ingham, who was later given a knighthood



bastards


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 26, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> hard reading, still. And for what were these lies told?


To cover culpability.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 26, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> To cover culpability.


I know. It just seems so fucking tawdry a reason for it. Just arse covering, nothing more. Cunts. I'm glad that the families can now move forward in getting justice but I can't help be angry about how shallow the reasons to lie were. Reminder of how worthless they think you are.


----------



## hipipol (Apr 26, 2016)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Tory who labelled Hillsborough fans 'tanked up yobs' refuses to apologise
> 
> 
> 
> Cunt!


You're surpised?
That toad was always a lying bit of slime...


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Apr 26, 2016)

Fedayn said:


> As an aside, back in 2010 when he was Minister for Sport, Jerremy Hunt claimed Liverpool fans caused their own deaths..... There is no level to which he won't stoop.



And Boris crowed about similar in The Spectator.


----------



## hipipol (Apr 26, 2016)

Despite the hatestorm this will induce
Heysel Stadium disaster - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This is why they were slagged off at first


----------



## Teaboy (Apr 26, 2016)

hipipol said:


> Despite the hatestorm this will induce
> Heysel Stadium disaster - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> This is why they were slagged off at first



I'm not going to "hatestorm" you I'm just going to say you're badly mistaken and question your motivations for posting this.  The vast majority of the stuff you've posted lately has been a total car crash, lets not keep going down this road.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 26, 2016)

hipipol said:


> Despite the hatestorm this will induce
> Heysel Stadium disaster - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> This is why they were slagged off at first


Reported.


----------



## danny la rouge (Apr 26, 2016)

hipipol said:


> Despite the hatestorm this will induce
> Heysel Stadium disaster - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> This is why they were slagged off at first


How about you read the links on the thread?


----------



## belboid (Apr 26, 2016)

hipipol said:


> Despite the hatestorm this will induce
> Heysel Stadium disaster - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> This is why they were slagged off at first


That had absolutely nothing to do with why they were slagged of at first. They were slagged off for being working class football fans. SYP and the tories had probably barely even heard of Heysel.


----------



## hipipol (Apr 26, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Reported.


oh dear, the interweb provides the basis for the comment
Heysel Stadium disaster - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Reported to whom can I ask?


----------



## redcogs (Apr 26, 2016)

There are no words capable of expressing the disgust i feel towards the contemptible Bernard Ingham. A society which valued the qualities of respect and human decency would refuse to tolerate such a cretin, let alone 'honour' one with a title.

This loathsome parody of a Yorkshire man should be paraded naked through the streets of Liverpool, prior to a slow execution.


----------



## hipipol (Apr 26, 2016)

belboid said:


> That had absolutely nothing to do with why they were slagged of at first. They were slagged off for being working class football fans. SYP and the tories had probably barely even heard of Heysel.





hipipol said:


> oh dear, the interweb provides the basis for the comment
> Heysel Stadium disaster - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> Reported to whom can I ask?


Yes it was
Hard to describe now how much luiverpool were both hated and blamed at this time
They have yet to properly grovel for this slaughter


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 26, 2016)

hipipol said:


> Yes it was
> Hard to describe now how much luiverpool were both hated and blamed at this time
> They have yet to properly grovel for this slaughter


Just go away. No one wants you.


----------



## Teaboy (Apr 26, 2016)

hipipol said:


> Yes it was
> Hard to describe now how much luiverpool were both hated and blamed at this time
> They have yet to properly grovel for this slaughter



I know you're just trying to provoke a fight.  That's all you do recently.  I don't know why, but its very sad to see it.  You should leave for your own good.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 26, 2016)

hipipol said:


> oh dear, the interweb provides the basis for the comment
> Heysel Stadium disaster - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> Reported to whom can I ask?


You've ruined your own life - don't try to ruin others. Leave  this thread.


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 26, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> And Boris crowed about similar in The Spectator.


I think it was actually Simon Heffer, despite Facebook posts claiming it was Johnson. Johnson signed off on it though as he was editor


----------



## Athos (Apr 26, 2016)

hipipol said:


> Yes it was
> Hard to describe now how much luiverpool were both hated and blamed at this time
> They have yet to properly grovel for this slaughter


You horrible cunt. Just fuck off.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 26, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> I think it was actually Simon Heffer, despite Facebook posts claiming it was Johnson. Johnson signed off on it though as he was editor


yep, as I said at the time buck stops with editor. Either he read it and gave it a nod or he didn't and in that case what is he doing as editor?


----------



## Wilf (Apr 26, 2016)

This thread - and this moment - deserves better than hippipol's bile. Let's leave him to it.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 26, 2016)

Let's ignore him.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 26, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> I think it was actually Simon Heffer, despite Facebook posts claiming it was Johnson. Johnson signed off on it though as he was editor


Heffer confirmed that Johnson requested him to pen that piece. It was the editor's call.


----------



## chilango (Apr 26, 2016)

Spent some time this afternoon reading about the lad from my school who was killed. It was hard. But worth doing to flesh out my memories of a kid who I only really remember now for speaking perfect French with a broad Scouse accent.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Apr 26, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Heffer confirmed that Johnson requested him to pen that piece. It was the editor's call.



Heffer's pen though. Both culpable.


----------



## TopCat (Apr 26, 2016)

Let's get the pair of them and Ingham as well.


----------



## Coolfonz (Apr 26, 2016)

hipipol said:


> Yes it was
> Hard to describe now how much luiverpool were both hated and blamed at this time
> They have yet to properly grovel for this slaughter



You are nuts. Even back then _anyone_ who went to football could see what had happened. Being crushed in pens was - amazingly - part of going to football at the time, I can personally vouch for that, burn marks on my forearms from fencing and so on. But this time the police opened the doors and just let everyone in, crushing people at the front to death. Anyone who understood football knew. It was nothing to do with Heysel. Just as Heysel was nothing to do with Rome the year before. You pathetic idiot.


----------



## Libertad (Apr 26, 2016)

The first thoughts of me and my football going mates at the time was "Fuck, that could have been us". None of us blamed Liverpool we all knew that it was a stitch up.

eta Yeah and fuck off hipipol


----------



## TopCat (Apr 26, 2016)

I was in a bookies on that day watching Roll A Joint win the Scottish Grand National and the Hillsborough match was on live. I watched people die. The bookies got full and people were opened mouthed with shock. 

The very same day the lies started. 

The week after Millwall were at home and given we had revolving razor spikes on the top of the fences we all knew it would have been worse if it happened at the Den. No one would have got out. 
We had a right fucking tear up with the police that day. ACAB.


----------



## ChrisD (Apr 26, 2016)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I have two thoughts:
> 
> 1. It moves me to tears to think about the families fighting for 27 years. 27 years. I cannot put into words the respect I have for them.
> 
> ...


 It's a disgrace..... anyone else noticed coincidence of Nelson Mandela's prison time ?


----------



## UrbaneFox (Apr 26, 2016)

no.


----------



## marty21 (Apr 26, 2016)

27 years , astonishing,  I had just moved to London , I was 24 . I watched it in horror live on the telly at the place I was staying (Buckhurst Hill ) . Can't imagine what those families have been through , having to see the #scum lie about their kin folk , the Police lie , politicians lie , knowing it was being covered up. Set back after set back , getting knocked  back and knocked back. Not being believed , not being able to properly grieve. Now finally they are believed officially.


----------



## Coolfonz (Apr 26, 2016)

Also, please don't forget, Richard Littlejohn wrote a piece for the Evening Standard also blaming Liverpool fans. Can anyone find it somehow? His phone number was published in the Liverpool Echo a few days later.


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 26, 2016)

Bit late to this having been unable to properly follow the news or post here all day, but fucking long last!


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 26, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> Also, please don't forget, Richard Littlejohn wrote a piece for the Evening Standard also blaming Liverpool fans. Can anyone find it somehow? His phone number was published in the Liverpool Echo a few days later.



Can't find Littlejohn's original piece, but check this fucking pile of toss he wrote in the Mail only a few years ago - _short memory Dick_?

Sorry seems to be the easiest word, Dave


----------



## xes (Apr 26, 2016)

JFT96

Just seen the courthouse footage with the singing outside. Massive lump in my throat. 

Now bring on the fucking prosectutions!!


----------



## YouSir (Apr 26, 2016)




----------



## LeslieB (Apr 26, 2016)

Am I the only person who can see the massive elephant in the room here?

 By all means blame the police and not the 96 Liverpool fans who died. But the real cause of all this are people who acted like twats at football matches in the 70s and 80s. If it wasn't for them, there would have been no fences and no deaths.


----------



## Callie (Apr 26, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> Am I the only person who can see the massive elephant in the room here?
> 
> By all means blame the police and not the 96 Liverpool fans who died. But the real cause of all this are people who acted like twats at football matches in the 70s and 80s. If it wasn't for them, there would have been no fences and no deaths.


Fuck off


----------



## LeslieB (Apr 26, 2016)

Callie said:


> Fuck off



No, I won't fuck off. Please explain to me why those fences were there, if not as a result of twatish behaviour in the past?


----------



## YouSir (Apr 26, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> Am I the only person who can see the massive elephant in the room here?
> 
> By all means blame the police and not the 96 Liverpool fans who died. But the real cause of all this are people who acted like twats at football matches in the 70s and 80s. If it wasn't for them, there would have been no fences and no deaths.



I see a massive cunt in the room, but don't worry, I'm sure you'll leave soon enough.


----------



## Favelado (Apr 26, 2016)

All I can say is that a day like this is a great one to show your true colours.


----------



## Athos (Apr 26, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> Am I the only person who can see the massive elephant in the room here?
> 
> By all means blame the police and not the 96 Liverpool fans who died. But the real cause of all this are people who acted like twats at football matches in the 70s and 80s. If it wasn't for them, there would have been no fences and no deaths.



Remoteness of causation, unforseeability of harm, and the absence of a duty of care make those people's culpability pale into insignificance next to the police's failings.


----------



## Athos (Apr 26, 2016)

Oh, and don't be a dick.


----------



## LeslieB (Apr 26, 2016)

YouSir said:


> I see a massive cunt in the room, but don't worry, I'm sure you'll leave soon enough.



No, I won't leave. 

Please tell me why *you* think the fences at Hillsborough were there?


----------



## Favelado (Apr 26, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> No, I won't leave.
> 
> Please tell me why *you* think the fences at Hillsborough were there?



Give it a rest eh mate? Today's a celebration. Come on now. Instead of giving it the internet large, how about I just ask you nicely?

Would be nice to have one thread that can act as a record of a wonderful moment without descending into rubbish.

What do you say?

Please.


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 26, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> No, I won't fuck off. Please explain to me why those fences were there, if not as a result of twatish behaviour in the past?



Never mind the dead, never mind the state cover-up, never mind the police and media blaming football fans (which they saw then as 'working class scum'), never mind not properly dealing with the situation and those injured, never mind the fucking authorities changing witness statements and lying.

'but violent football fans!11!!'

Fuck off.


----------



## Athos (Apr 26, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> No, I won't leave.
> 
> Please tell me why *you* think the fences at Hillsborough were there?



Because the authorities were cavalier with football fans' safety, risking the death of the vast majority of ordinary fans by overreacting to the threat of misbehaviour by a minority.

Stop being a prick. Please.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 26, 2016)

Watching C4 News with some grit in my eye, I think.


----------



## LeslieB (Apr 26, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> 'but violent football fans!11!!'



No, violent *idiots*, not violent football fans. 

Without them, there would have been no fences, surely?


----------



## Favelado (Apr 26, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> No, violent *idiots*, not violent football fans.
> 
> Without them, there would have been no fences, surely?



Please.


----------



## krtek a houby (Apr 26, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> Am I the only person who can see the massive elephant in the room here?
> 
> By all means blame the police and not the 96 Liverpool fans who died. But the real cause of all this are people who acted like twats at football matches in the 70s and 80s. If it wasn't for them, there would have been no fences and no deaths.



That makes as much sense as your reactionary, ill informed views on immigration. Why don't you leave the shit stirring for another day? You're only going to get more abuse & end up getting a ban.

Unless, of course, that's what you want?


----------



## Athos (Apr 26, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> No, violent *idiots*, not violent football fans.
> 
> Without them, there would have been no fences, surely?



Why do this? Now? Really?


----------



## YouSir (Apr 26, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> No, I won't leave.
> 
> Please tell me why *you* think the fences at Hillsborough were there?



Christ you're a lowlife.


----------



## dessiato (Apr 26, 2016)

I keep reading the news. I keep filling with tears.


----------



## YouSir (Apr 26, 2016)

Athos said:


> Why do this? Now? Really?





Favelado said:


> Please.





krtek a houby said:


> That makes as much sense as your reactionary, ill informed views on immigration. Why don't you leave the shit stirring for another day? You're only going to get more abuse & end up getting a ban.
> 
> Unless, of course, that's what you want?



Just don't bother, he's gasping for attention, nothing else. It's pathetic and not worth the effort. Especially on a thread like this.


----------



## LeslieB (Apr 26, 2016)

YouSir said:


> Christ you're a lowlife.



No, the drunken idiots at 70s and 80s football matches were the lowlifes. And we seem to be letting them get away with this.


----------



## The Boy (Apr 26, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> No, violent *idiots*, not violent football fans.
> 
> Without them, there would have been no fences, surely?



Seriously, fuck off.  Not now, not here.  

Just. Fuck. Off.


----------



## LeslieB (Apr 26, 2016)

No, I won't fuck off. Still no-one will accept who is to blame for those lethal fences being there?


----------



## Athos (Apr 26, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> No, I won't fuck off. Still no-one will accept who is to blame for those lethal fences being there?


Yes, those who erected them. Demonstrably, they weren't necessary, since football functions without them, now.


----------



## Favelado (Apr 26, 2016)

Ignore him now everyone.


----------



## LeslieB (Apr 26, 2016)

Athos said:


> Yes, those who erected them.



And they did so for pleasure, did they?


----------



## Favelado (Apr 26, 2016)

> Hillsborough Justice Campaign
> 
> Press Release
> 
> ...


----------



## harpo (Apr 26, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> And they did so for pleasure, did they?


Just fuck the fuck off, you vile little troll.


----------



## LeslieB (Apr 26, 2016)

TopCat said:


> The week after Millwall were at home and given we had revolving razor spikes on the top of the fences we all knew it would have been worse if it happened at the Den. No one would have got out.
> We had a right fucking tear up with the police that day. ACAB.



It's people like you that are to blame for those fences in the first place.


----------



## xes (Apr 26, 2016)

Classy Leslie, real classy. Fucking scumbag.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Apr 26, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Watching C4 News with some grit in my eye, I think.



There seems to be quite a lot of grit around today, keep getting it in my eyes.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 26, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> No, violent *idiots*, not violent football fans.
> 
> Without them, there would have been no fences, surely?


Oh god, not you as well.
Just fuck off, can't you.


----------



## xes (Apr 26, 2016)

And posts reported.


----------



## teqniq (Apr 26, 2016)




----------



## Athos (Apr 26, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> And they did so for pleasure, did they?



No, they did so because they didn't mind using a sledge-hammer to crack a nut: they were utterly disdainful of fans and their safety.


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 26, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> No, I won't fuck off. Still no-one will accept who is to blame for those lethal fences being there?



_'The enemy within'_ eh? 

Fuck off.


----------



## LeslieB (Apr 26, 2016)

Athos said:


> No, they did so because they didn't mind using a sledge-hammer to crack a nut:



Quite a big nut, though. I accept it was a minority of fans, but it was a large enough minority to put the majority of people off going to football matches.


----------



## Athos (Apr 26, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> Quite a big nut, though. I accept it was a minority of fans, but it was a large enough minority to put the majority of people off going to football matches.


No it didn't.


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 26, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> Quite a big nut, though. I accept it was a minority of fans, but it was a large enough minority to put the majority of people off going to football matches.



This is just ahistorical bullshit.


----------



## LeslieB (Apr 26, 2016)

Athos said:


> No it didn't.



Yes it did. I'm certainly old enough to remember when football matches were scary places you just didn't go to.


----------



## LeslieB (Apr 26, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> This is just ahistorical bullshit.



Then why were attendences in seemingly terminal decline throughout the 1980s?


----------



## Favelado (Apr 26, 2016)

Stop arguing with him. It's not even his real opinion. He'd say the opposite to get attention. Just ignore him.


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 26, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> Yes it did. I'm certainly old enough to remember when football matches were scary places you just didn't go to.


Loads of people went though. It was only £6 a ticket then.


----------



## Athos (Apr 26, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> Yes it did. I'm certainly old enough to remember when football matches were scary places you just didn't go to.



Yeah, nobody went. 

You are an imbecile, and I don't want to entertain you any longer.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 26, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> Yes it did. I'm certainly old enough to remember when football matches were scary places you just didn't go to.


If you were coming out then with the guff you've posted on this thread I can see how people might have taken against and menaced you


----------



## LeslieB (Apr 26, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> Loads of people went though.



Nowhere near as many as in previous decades, though.


----------



## editor (Apr 26, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> It's people like you that are to blame for those fences in the first place.


Get the fuck out of this thread NOW or be banned you insensitive cretin.


----------



## LeslieB (Apr 26, 2016)

editor said:


> Get the fuck out of this thread NOW or be banned you insensitive cretin.



I beg your pardon? Can you really not stand alternative views on this?


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 26, 2016)

Who once said this on here?


> I don't even particularly like football,


----------



## editor (Apr 26, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> I beg your pardon? Can you really not stand alternative views on this?


What you are posting is inaccurate, grossly insensitive and deeply offensive. If you can't see that, that's your problem, but if you keep posting in this thread, you will be banned.

If you want to start a thread about how all football fans in the 70s/80s were supposedly some kind of raging animals who deserved to die, feel free to do so and see how you get on with that, but you are NOT going to troll this thread with your vile bullshit.


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 26, 2016)

Anyway…

Hillsborough survivors call for criminal action over altered testimonies



			
				Indie said:
			
		

> *Hillsborough disaster verdict: Police and survivors who had testimonies altered call for criminal action
> *
> 'Call me an old fashioned bobby, but that is criminal,' says officer whose statement was changed


----------



## LeslieB (Apr 26, 2016)

editor said:


> What you are posting is inaccurate, grossly insensitive and deeply offensive. If you can't see that, that's your problem, but if you keep posting in this thread, you will be banned.



Fine.


----------



## LeslieB (Apr 26, 2016)

editor said:


> If you want to start a thread about how all football fans in the 70s/80s were supposedly some kind of raging animals who deserved to die,



Where did I say that, please?


----------



## brogdale (Apr 26, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> Where did I say that, please?


Ask to be banned again.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 26, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> Where did I say that, please?


editor pls put him out of his misery


----------



## harpo (Apr 26, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> editor pls put him out of his misery


It must be past his bed time.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 26, 2016)

harpo said:


> It must be past his bed time.


No, he's old enough to stop up to past the watershed. But he's a vile racist twat with no redeeming features whatsoever and an unenviable talent in posting offensive tosh


----------



## framed (Apr 26, 2016)

TAL Fanzine (Celtic) blog on today's verdict:

*We Have The Truth, Now We Want Justice For The 96…*

*




*


----------



## Coolfonz (Apr 26, 2016)

Does anyone at Urban go to the British museum? Can anyone dig out Littlejohn's Evening Standard piece on Hillsborough? Would have been not long after...


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 26, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> Does anyone at Urban go to the British museum? Can anyone dig out Littlejohn's Evening Standard piece on Hillsborough? Would have been not long after...


Evening standard only on nexis from '92, have to go to the bl


----------



## Coolfonz (Apr 26, 2016)

I mean British library!! not museum d'oh...anyway request still stands...does it cost to get a copy? i'll pay.


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 26, 2016)

All I can find is a twitter post from somebody who posted a picture of the cutting a while ago. 'Come off it you reds' the piece was called - twitter link.


----------



## cantsin (Apr 26, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> Yes it did. I'm certainly old enough to remember when football matches were scary places *you just didn't go to*.



ha ha ha  "says it all" doesn't even begin to cover it with that comment does : didn't go / was too scared / eager to blather on about it all endlessly, regardless .


----------



## danny la rouge (Apr 26, 2016)




----------



## Coolfonz (Apr 26, 2016)

That's it! I can read most of it. I'm not on Twitter, but that article should be given a wider audience. All the same stuff about `drunken` fans and `thuggish` fans. Can you contact the guy via Twitter and ask for a better scan?


----------



## Favelado (Apr 26, 2016)

The amount of hatred and bile that people from Liverpool, not just LFC fans, have been subject to in general is extraordinary. The city that lost half of its population due to industrial decline, and the city that maybe suffered more than any other, became the "self-pity city", sneered at by sketch shows, politicians, but also your average man in the street much of the time.

Divide and rule really works doesn't it?


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 26, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> That's it! I can read most of it. I'm not on Twitter, but that article should be given a wider audience. All the same stuff about `drunken` fans and `thuggish` fans.



See if this works.


----------



## harpo (Apr 26, 2016)

Favelado said:


> The amount of hatred and bile that people from Liverpool, not just LFC fans, have suffered in general is extraordinary. The city that lost half of its population due to industrial decline, and the city that maybe suffered more than any other, became the "self-pity city", sneered at by sketch shows, politicians, but also your average man in the street much of the time.
> 
> Divide and rule really works doesn't it?


Thatcher's punishment for Derek Hatton.


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 26, 2016)

Fucking hell, that middle column of text of the Littlejohn piece.

What scum he is.


----------



## Coolfonz (Apr 26, 2016)

You are some kind of internet genius. Can you now make it go viral?


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 26, 2016)

Perhaps the best thing would be if someone who's on twitter could pop a tweet to the person who originally posted it to ask to repost/share? Seems most appropriate.


----------



## Dovydaitis (Apr 26, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> See if this works.


Nasty. Just pure nasty


----------



## William of Walworth (Apr 26, 2016)

*Best news there could have been.* I was very late to get any detail, but I'm absolutely delighted.

I've read all the posts and links (these 3 crucial ones reposted together for other latecomers who might be too short of time to do the whole thread -- hope that's OK).

How the Hillsborough inquest jury ruled on the 14 key questions

Hillsborough Justice Campaign press release/statement -- the last paragraph especially really got to me.

Hillsborough disaster : Deadly mistakes and lies that lasted decades -- there'll be other excellent history and analysis, but this huge piece by David Conn is a must-read IMO.

Some superb posts on this thread earlier today as well. Particularly this posted by @brogdale (post 1199) back on page 40


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Apr 26, 2016)

Lest we forget this fuckin mop haired cunts comments too!


----------



## Favelado (Apr 26, 2016)

BBC News not mentioning how key they were in spreading the lies in the hours and days after the disaster. It wasn't all The Sun you know.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 26, 2016)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Lest we forget this fuckin mop haired cunts comments too!


Tbh I doubt the spectator sells more than one copy in Liverpool


----------



## William of Walworth (Apr 26, 2016)

"More than 50" -- couldn't even be arsed to look up the accurate figure!


----------



## William of Walworth (Apr 26, 2016)

Favelado said:


> BBC News not mentioning how key they were in spreading the lies in the hours and days after the disaster. It wasn't all The Sun you know.




There wouldn't have been the website then (?) -- I wonder if there's anything on YouTube or wherever?


----------



## Favelado (Apr 26, 2016)

William of Walworth said:


> There wouldn't have been the website then (?) -- I wonder if there's anything on YouTube or wherever?



The BBC's early broadcasts made it seem clear to anyone watching that drunk, ticketless fans were the reason the disaster had happened. The damage done early on would have been impossible to undo even if they had bothered to try.

YouTube can verify the above very clearly.


----------



## N_igma (Apr 26, 2016)

Large '96' unveiled over West Belfast this evening in respect for those who died.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 26, 2016)

William of Walworth said:


> "More than 50" -- couldn't even be arsed to look up the accurate figure!


Was just thinking that. Its the complete absence of empathy when you can't think of the dead as real victims with families, just an amorphous mass - and one where you can't even be arsed spending 30 seconds to get the number right (actually, neither writer nor editor could be arsed).


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 26, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> Am I the only person who can see the massive elephant in the room here?
> 
> By all means blame the police and not the 96 Liverpool fans who died. But the real cause of all this are people who acted like twats at football matches in the 70s and 80s. If it wasn't for them, there would have been no fences and no deaths.



Fuck off, cunt. Fences weren't for "crowd control" purposes to stop pitch invasions, they originally started getting put in way back in the 1960s - before hooliganism - to make matches easier to police - i.e. allow them to be policed with fewer officers - again, not for crowd control purposes, but for the sake of convenience and cost-cutting.


----------



## William of Walworth (Apr 26, 2016)

Favelado said:


> The BBC's early broadcasts made it seem clear to anyone watching that drunk, ticketless fans were the reason the disaster had happened. The damage done early on would have been impossible to undo even if they had bothered to try.
> 
> YouTube can verify the above very clearly.




I wasn't challenging your post at all, in fact I have vague memories of what you say being right about the BBC -- just felt a bit daunted at being able to find YouTube links. I'll have a go when I have more time, but do you happen to have any to hand? 

Not sure how appropriate or not it is to post them on this thread though ....


----------



## Wilf (Apr 26, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Fuck off, cunt. Fences weren't for "crowd control" purposes to stop pitch invasions, they originally started getting put in way back in the 1960s - before hooliganism - to make matches easier to police - i.e. allow them to be policed with fewer officers - again, not for crowd control purposes, but for the sake of convenience and cost-cutting.


Ken Bates even added an electric fence for a while.  This from wiki


> In the mid 1980s, he famously erected an electric perimeter fence around the pitch at Stamford Bridge to prevent pitch invasions, but the fence was soon dismantled after the local council refused him permission to turn the electricity on.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 26, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> Never mind the dead, never mind the state cover-up, never mind the police and media blaming football fans (which they saw then as 'working class scum'), never mind not properly dealing with the situation and those injured, never mind the fucking authorities changing witness statements and lying.
> 
> 'but violent football fans!11!!'
> 
> Fuck off.



First time I saw a fence in a football stadium was 1969, at Craven Cottage (my great-uncle was a Fulham fan, for his sins). 
In other words, four or five years *before* "hooliganism" kicked off.
I thought the history of fencing was settled back when the Taylor report came out?


----------



## Favelado (Apr 26, 2016)

I'll PM them to you.


----------



## William of Walworth (Apr 26, 2016)

Favelado said:


> I'll PM them to you.




Thanks for that, appreciated.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 26, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> It's people like you that are to blame for those fences in the first place.



Do one.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 26, 2016)




----------



## Coolfonz (Apr 26, 2016)

That was the electric fence at Chels, you can see the white things at the top. They never switched it on, anyway the stewards always opened the doors


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 26, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> Quite a big nut, though. I accept it was a minority of fans, but it was a large enough minority to put the majority of people off going to football matches.



Go to a lot of matches in the 70s and 80s? I was a season ticket holder for some years in both decades. That was at West Ham, which had a bad reputation. Thing is, as I'm sure TopCat will also say about Millwall, trouble at the ground was rare - usually hassle from pitch invasions from celebrating home fans - the main trouble was *outside* the grounds.

Try not too parade your ignorance too hard, you toe-rag.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 26, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> Yes it did. I'm certainly old enough to remember when football matches were scary places you just didn't go to.



Only if you were a bedwetting middle class wanker. I knew kids who went to every home match at West Ham in the '80s, and whose parents were happy to let them go. Says a bit about how "scary" grounds were.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 26, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> Loads of people went though. It was only £6 a ticket then.



And where attendance did decline, it was at grounds were the ticket prices went into double figures. I knew a few Spurs supporters who stopped going when they were charging a tenner to Chelsea and QPR's £7.50.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 26, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> Nowhere near as many as in previous decades, though.



Football attendance started to decline in the 1950s, due entirely to TV coverage. The next set of major declines in attendance weren't due to hooliganism, but to Rupert shitcunting Murdoch, you fuckwit.


----------



## Red Cat (Apr 26, 2016)

Ignore him.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 26, 2016)

Wilf said:


> Ken Bates even added an electric fence for a while.  This from wiki



Bates would have fucked his mother's corpse  on the turf of Stamford Bridge for a column inch of publicity.


----------



## Plumdaff (Apr 26, 2016)

Favelado said:


> The BBC's early broadcasts made it seem clear to anyone watching that drunk, ticketless fans were the reason the disaster had happened. The damage done early on would have been impossible to undo even if they had bothered to try.
> 
> YouTube can verify the above very clearly.



It's astonishing, profoundly sad, and infuriating, watching those YouTube videos now. Hearing the lies being told as on screen fans desperately try to save lives, police stand in inactive cordons and ambulances stand outside. Also the odd interviewed fan there and then, talking about the opened gates and the central pens. It's all there, in front of them.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Apr 26, 2016)

I really wasn't expecting today's verdicts.  Was expecting the usual whitewash.


----------



## steveo87 (Apr 26, 2016)

Been wracking my brains to say something that wasn't just anti-Tory bile - and there's quite a lot of that - or overly sanctimonious (it could happen to any family, any team, anywhere), so I'll just share this. Like it if you want. YNWA


----------



## brogdale (Apr 26, 2016)

Burnham on Newsnight concludes the day as he started calling for prosecutions, and a change in law that allows OB to retire away from accountability. 
Encouraging.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 26, 2016)

Favelado said:


> BBC News not mentioning how key they were in spreading the lies in the hours and days after the disaster. It wasn't all The Sun you know.


Interestingly on Newsnight Peter Marshall's piece with the first broadcast instance of the 'broken gate' lie (spoken by Motty) was highlighted as an example of Police propaganda.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 26, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Bates would have fucked his mother's corpse  on the turf of Stamford Bridge for a column inch of publicity.


I think that's all it - and she - got.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 26, 2016)

And still...


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Apr 26, 2016)




----------



## 8115 (Apr 26, 2016)

Puddy_Tat said:


> I really wasn't expecting today's verdicts.  Was expecting the usual whitewash.


Yeah it surprised me too.

I hate seeing the videos of the people standing on the pitch. The worst thing is that nobody is panicking. Horrible. I still can't properly get my head around what actually happened, possibly because I don't really remember football matches with fences so I can't imagine it.

I think were saying on the news that after a verdict of unlawful death you can expect a possible criminal prosecution and that that could go two ways, one for culpability for what actually happened on the day and two for more health and safety stuff about the ground itself.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 26, 2016)

I'll end it here today.
Just under the title on that infamous front page...*"Thought: Kop of shame"





*


----------



## friedaweed (Apr 26, 2016)

All the bellends are still crawling out from under their rocks and always will be. There are people in this world who just can't get their fucking heads around reality. The Truth is out now. That's all that needs to be said. Fuck the sad little cunts who still believe the lies 

I sat with a mate last night and shared a bottle of wine and we remembered that day hopefully for the last time with unjust feelings. I knew he'd text me to come over for some time together. We always get together at times like these and we were both shitting ourselves until 11 am today. He gave evidence at the recent inquest. Him and his dad were in the middle of the pens surrounded by the carnage. He tried to take his own life this Christmas on account of having to relive those horrors he's lived with all throughout his adult life at the inquest before christmas. Yes 27 years on and he still can't face what happened. Going over the photographs, reliving your worst nightmares as a teenage lad, trying to tell total strangers what it was like to be there on that day now and it was all to much for him this christmas. Trying to grow up and become a man with that shit in your mind every night and being told it was your fault because some bent fucking copper wouldn't admit they fucked up and a large section of the political elite had it in for the City you came from is fucking wrong. If you want to blame the fans speak to him but polish your fucking armor first.

I've got my own awful memories of that day. The funerals of kids, the empty seats on the bus to games, not knowing what to say to the dads, mums, brothers, sisters, etc when you met them. Tonight though we'll all sleep a little better and now for many of us it's time to move on. The Truth is finally out and Justice is served. I don't give a fuck what happens to Duckenfield et al now to be honest. They've been exposed for the lying cunts that they were and the scum that they will always now be remembered as now. They're finished.

You can have all the fucking opinions you like. If you've had to live with it it though some peoples opinions just sound like a load of pissy waffle to those of us who remember that day so vividly. If you have to ban masons from an inquest based upon the previous behaviour of some of the higher echelons of our society then you have to ask yourself why?? People in power fucked up, they blamed the people they should have been there to protect. They thought they were better than them and they treated them like scum. The scum were...

John Alfred Anderson (62)
Colin Mark Ashcroft (19)
James Gary Aspinall (18)
Kester Roger Marcus Ball (16)
Gerard Bernard Patrick Baron (67)
Simon Bell (17)
Barry Sidney Bennett (26)
David John Benson (22)
David William Birtle (22)
Tony Bland (22)
Paul David Brady (21)
Andrew Mark Brookes (26)
Carl Brown (18)
David Steven Brown (25)
Henry Thomas Burke (47)
Peter Andrew Burkett (24)
Paul William Carlile (19)
Raymond Thomas Chapman (50)
Gary Christopher Church (19)
Joseph Clark (29)
Paul Clark (18)
Gary Collins (22)
Stephen Paul Copoc (20)
Tracey Elizabeth Cox (23) James Philip Delaney (19)
Christopher Barry Devonside (18)
Christopher Edwards (29)
Vincent Michael Fitzsimmons (34)
Thomas Steven Fox (21)
Jon-Paul Gilhooley (10)
Barry Glover (27)
Ian Thomas Glover (20)
Derrick George Godwin (24)
Roy Harry Hamilton (34)
Philip Hammond (14)
Eric Hankin (33)
Gary Harrison (27)
Stephen Francis Harrison (31)
Peter Andrew Harrison (15)
David Hawley (39)
James Robert Hennessy (29)
Paul Anthony Hewitson (26)
Carl Darren Hewitt (17)
Nicholas Michael Hewitt (16)
Sarah Louise Hicks (19)
Victoria Jane Hicks (15)
Gordon Rodney Horn (20)
Arthur Horrocks (41) Thomas Howard (39)
Thomas Anthony Howard (14)
Eric George Hughes (42)
Alan Johnston (29)
Christine Anne Jones (27)
Gary Philip Jones (18)
Richard Jones (25)
Nicholas Peter Joynes (27)
Anthony Peter Kelly (29)
Michael David Kelly (38)
Carl David Lewis (18)
David William Mather (19)
Brian Christopher Mathews (38)
Francis Joseph McAllister (27)
John McBrien (18)
Marion Hazel McCabe (21)
Joseph Daniel McCarthy (21)
Peter McDonnell (21)
Alan McGlone (28)
Keith McGrath (17)
Paul Brian Murray (14)
Lee Nicol (14)
Stephen Francis O'Neill (17)
Jonathon Owens (18) William Roy Pemberton (23)
Carl William Rimmer (21)
David George Rimmer (38)
Graham John Roberts (24)
Steven Joseph Robinson (17)
Henry Charles Rogers (17)
Colin Andrew Hugh William Sefton (23)
Inger Shah (38)
Paula Ann Smith (26)
Adam Edward Spearritt (14)
Philip John Steele (15)
David Leonard Thomas (23)
Patrik John Thompson (35)
Peter Reuben Thompson (30)
Stuart Paul William Thompson (17)
Peter Francis Tootle (21)
Christopher James Traynor (26)
Martin Kevin Traynor (16)
Kevin Tyrrell (15)
Colin Wafer (19)
Ian David Whelan (19)
Martin Kenneth Wild (29)
Kevin Daniel Williams (15)
Graham John Wright (17)

Just ordinary people like you and me going to a football match but on that day they became expendable. We immortalized them, their families took the fight to the same crooks that blamed them. We did overcome.

Most of us stopped talking about it the first time they shafted us but we quietly thought for justice.

Here's an ordinary lad from Runcorn who survived those pens but his life was robbed from him and he was made to feel like it was his fault for 27 years. A fan. a son, a dad and a fucking solid human being.



​
Have a good kip tonight Peter Murray.


Today we got Justice for the 96.


See you at my wedding yer big prick and don't fuck me stag night up 
​


----------



## Wilf (Apr 27, 2016)

> Jon-Paul Gilhooley (10)


Seeing Jon-Paul's name always gets me. Fucking hell, fucking hell.    And fuck you South Yorkshire Police and all the other scum who could lie, lie and lie.


----------



## friedaweed (Apr 27, 2016)

Wilf said:


> Seeing Jon-Paul's name always gets me. Fucking hell, fucking hell.    And fuck you South Yorkshire Police and all the other scum who could lie, lie and lie.


I know. Finn Larden is 10. He's been on the terraces since he was 5. His sister has been there since she was 4. Some people (Especially my Bluenose family) would call that cruelty. We call it family...


----------



## Dogsauce (Apr 27, 2016)

(From )


----------



## treelover (Apr 27, 2016)

brogdale said:


> I'll end it here today.
> Just under the title on that infamous front page...*"Thought: Kop of shame"
> 
> 
> ...



4 million sales that day, wonder how many belived the lies?


----------



## Favelado (Apr 27, 2016)

Sleepless nights for some...
Paul Middup. I hope you're awake.


Hillsborough verdicts: Who could be in for a sleepless night?


----------



## bendeus (Apr 27, 2016)

friedaweed said:


> All the bellends are still crawling out from under their rocks and always will be. There are people in this world who just can't get their fucking heads around reality. The Truth is out now. That's all that needs to be said. Fuck the sad little cunts who still believe the lies
> 
> I sat with a mate last night and shared a bottle of wine and we remembered that day hopefully for the last time with unjust feelings. I knew he'd text me to come over for some time together. We always get together at times like these and we were both shitting ourselves until 11 am today. He gave evidence at the recent inquest. Him and his dad were in the middle of the pens surrounded by the carnage. He tried to take his own life this Christmas on account of having to relive those horrors he's lived with all throughout his adult life at the inquest before christmas. Yes 27 years on and he still can't face what happened. Going over the photographs, reliving your worst nightmares as a teenage lad, trying to tell total strangers what it was like to be there on that day now and it was all to much for him this christmas. Trying to grow up and become a man with that shit in your mind every night and being told it was your fault because some bent fucking copper wouldn't admit they fucked up and a large section of the political elite had it in for the City you came from is fucking wrong. If you want to blame the fans speak to him but polish your fucking armor first.
> 
> ...


Utterly amazing post. Thank you.


----------



## LeslieB (Apr 27, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Fuck off, cunt. Fences weren't for "crowd control" purposes to stop pitch invasions, they originally started getting put in way back in the 1960s - before hooliganism - to make matches easier to police - i.e. allow them to be policed with fewer officers - again, not for crowd control purposes, but for the sake of convenience and cost-cutting.



What rubbish. If that was the case, why were the fences at Millwall topped with spikes (as per TopCats post above?)


----------



## LeslieB (Apr 27, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Only if you were a bedwetting middle class wanker.



What the fuck has class got to do with anything? For the record, I am definitely working class and proud of it. 

Drunken idiots are drunken idiots, whatever class they are from.


----------



## editor (Apr 27, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> What the fuck has class got to do with anything? For the record, I am definitely working class and proud of it.
> 
> Drunken idiots are drunken idiots, whatever class they are from.


Get the fuck off this thread. I've already warned you.


----------



## LeslieB (Apr 27, 2016)

editor said:


> Get the fuck off this thread. I've already warned you.



No, I won't "get the fuck off this thread".
 This is obviously your board. But you pride yourself normally in open, lively debate. Why  can you suddenly not take an opposing opinion on something?


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 27, 2016)

Oh piss off. You know it's not about 'opposing opinion', its about you being a dick. Again.


----------



## thirddail (Apr 27, 2016)

danny la rouge said:


>




A Scottish Nationalist speaks... One who has been given thousands upon thousands.


----------



## dessiato (Apr 27, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> No, I won't "get the fuck off this thread".
> This is obviously your board. But you pride yourself normally in open, lively debate. Why  can you suddenly not take an opposing opinion on something?


Why not do as editor suggested? If you want to have a discussion about football hooliganism, start a thread about it, but leave this one.


----------



## Ming (Apr 27, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> Oh piss off. You know it's not about 'opposing opinion', its about you being a dick. Again.


I was debating on saying '27 years of lies debunked and now you're still being oppositional'? But then i thought 'fuck it the posters a cunt'.


----------



## William of Walworth (Apr 27, 2016)

Why the hell has this utter arsehole not been permabanned by now? 

He's breached the clear warnings from editor  more than once.

I don't give a stuff about 'just ignore him' and and even less of a stuff about his 'right' to a 'different opinion' *when he doesn't even fucking hold it*.

He hasn't been anywhere near any of the links all over this thread with the all real information and evidence. He's only here to troll *and for no other reason*.

The sooner he's gone the better. He could hardly complain if he was banned -- the scumbag's brought it all on himself. Fuck him  

And no I don't care if he's enjoying the reaction he's getting either. Getting him banned's more important.


----------



## William of Walworth (Apr 27, 2016)

Apologies to all Justice campaigners in this thread and elsewhere 

I had to get that off my chest though.

And breathe ... .....

Full respect to everyone *genuine* here and everywhere, who *knows what *the truth is.


----------



## William of Walworth (Apr 27, 2016)

I was reading that really moving post from friedaweed just before. I hope everyone reads that. I was actually lost for words on what to say in response. 



So I went in the wrong direction ...


----------



## TopCat (Apr 27, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Go to a lot of matches in the 70s and 80s? I was a season ticket holder for some years in both decades. That was at West Ham, which had a bad reputation. Thing is, as I'm sure TopCat will also say about Millwall, trouble at the ground was rare - usually hassle from pitch invasions from celebrating home fans - the main trouble was *outside* the grounds.
> 
> Try not too parade your ignorance too hard, you toe-rag.


The vast vast majority of trouble at the Den was with the police. I was never into scrapping with other fans to be fair. When the police charged into the Cold Blow as was their wont, we all went fucking mental.


----------



## LeslieB (Apr 27, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> Oh piss off. You know it's not about 'opposing opinion', its about you being a dick. Again.



This is a current affairs **debating** board and I'm expressing an opinion. Everyone knows the 96 were innocent. Everyone knows there was a cover up. That shouldn't distract attention from the elephant in the room.


----------



## TopCat (Apr 27, 2016)

The police were all about subdgegation. So many of the measures they apply to protesters they honed first on us. They were indiscriminate in their force. Turned many a mild lad into a fierce opponent.


----------



## LeslieB (Apr 27, 2016)

TopCat said:


> The police were all about subdgegation. So many of the measures they apply to protesters they honed first on us.


This is bordering on 9/11 style conspiraloonacy , frankly


----------



## TopCat (Apr 27, 2016)

One of the worst memories of that day in 89 was the sight of the police hitting supporters on the hands, heads and shoulders, forcing them back into the pens and possibly to their deaths. It was obvious even to them that people were dying in the crush but they could not overcome and ignore their orders to stop a "pitch invasion" 

They had no moral compass at all.


----------



## TopCat (Apr 27, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> This is bordering on 9/11 style conspiraloonacy , frankly


I was there, I experienced what they did.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Apr 27, 2016)

TopCat said:


> I was there, I experienced what they did.



Leslie doesn't care, like all filth apologists.


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 27, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> This is a current affairs **debating** board and I'm expressing an opinion. Everyone knows the 96 were innocent. Everyone knows there was a cover up. That shouldn't distract attention from the elephant in the room.



Pleease! Just give over this thinking you've got some sort of special 'uncomfortable truth' insight to offer any of this, just as with every other thread you've been on since your return where you've had shit posts that totally lack any political, historical, or economic perspective utterly demolished again and again.

_You're shit, and you know you are_.


----------



## TopCat (Apr 27, 2016)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Leslie doesn't care, like all filth apologists.


It's a common enough attitude. People are brought up to respect the police. They find it hard to compute the big lie they have been forced to suck on all their life.


----------



## Voley (Apr 27, 2016)

Round-up of the front pages on the BBC here.

Only The Sun and The Times leave it off the front page.


----------



## Voley (Apr 27, 2016)

friedaweed said:


> All the bellends are still crawling out from under their rocks and always will be. There are people in this world who just can't get their fucking heads around reality. The Truth is out now. That's all that needs to be said. Fuck the sad little cunts who still believe the lies
> 
> I sat with a mate last night and shared a bottle of wine and we remembered that day hopefully for the last time with unjust feelings. I knew he'd text me to come over for some time together. We always get together at times like these and we were both shitting ourselves until 11 am today. He gave evidence at the recent inquest. Him and his dad were in the middle of the pens surrounded by the carnage. He tried to take his own life this Christmas on account of having to relive those horrors he's lived with all throughout his adult life at the inquest before christmas. Yes 27 years on and he still can't face what happened. Going over the photographs, reliving your worst nightmares as a teenage lad, trying to tell total strangers what it was like to be there on that day now and it was all to much for him this christmas. Trying to grow up and become a man with that shit in your mind every night and being told it was your fault because some bent fucking copper wouldn't admit they fucked up and a large section of the political elite had it in for the City you came from is fucking wrong. If you want to blame the fans speak to him but polish your fucking armor first.
> 
> ...


Spot on, frieda, mate.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Apr 27, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> This is a current affairs **debating** board and I'm expressing an opinion. Everyone knows the 96 were innocent. Everyone knows there was a cover up. That shouldn't distract attention from the elephant in the room.



There is no debate  you are being insensitive and saying "well the fans had a hand in the situation" 

The jury has spoken, a 27 year whitewash has been scraped away. The fans had no responsibility, the onus is on the police, ground and ambulance service.

There was clear evidence of a damn conspiracy by the police and certain members of parliament to twist the narrative and shift 100% of the blame to fans. This again has been seen and mentioned by the jury.


Your not a member of the jury, your a twat on the Internet shitting on the truth.


I don't even fucking like football and I can see this, now feck off.


----------



## TopCat (Apr 27, 2016)

There is a copy of the Sun's response to a complaint letter back then on Facebook. Unrepentant callousness.


----------



## danny la rouge (Apr 27, 2016)

thirddail said:


> A Scottish Nationalist speaks...


What's that meant to imply? "Stuart Campbell speaks": _he_ is who is responsible for those words and views.


----------



## LeslieB (Apr 27, 2016)

TopCat said:


> It's a common enough attitude. People are brought up to respect the police. .


Yes I was. And very broadly,  with lots of exceptions and conditionality,  I still do.

Are you seriously saying that the police response to soccer hooligans,  however disproportionate and heavy handed it might have been,  was some sort of anti working class political conspiracy?


----------



## Red Cat (Apr 27, 2016)

William of Walworth said:


> Why the hell has this utter arsehole not been permabanned by now?
> 
> He's breached the clear warnings from editor  more than once.
> 
> I don't give a stuff about 'just ignore him' and and even less of a stuff about his 'right' to a 'different opinion' *when he doesn't even fucking hold it*.



I suggested 'just ignore him' because we have a choice to feed it or not. And because I lost a friend at Hillsborough and I didn't want that shit on this thread yesterday.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 27, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> This is a current affairs **debating** board and I'm expressing an opinion. Everyone knows the 96 were innocent. Everyone knows there was a cover up. That shouldn't distract attention from *the elephant in the room*.



Which one is that then? Can it get any lower than coming onto this thread and making it all about you? You'll post just enough insensitive bollocks to wind people up, twist the narrative to be about football hooliganism (as they did 27 years ago) and then you'll plead innocence, followed by claims that we should report you to the mods if we don't like it.


----------



## TopCat (Apr 27, 2016)

I went for ignore. His last post was so loaded as to be ridiculous.


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 27, 2016)

Sun is the only paper this morning to not have anything about the verdict on their front page - relegated to pg5/6.


Scum.


----------



## TopCat (Apr 27, 2016)

Kelvin Mckensie is upset with the police for the briefing they gave him back then. Apparently he is at risk in Liverpool and has been vilified for decades poor lamb.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 27, 2016)

editor said:


> Get the fuck off this thread. I've already warned you.


Gotta say, why not get rid of this?


----------



## chilango (Apr 27, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> This is a current affairs **debating** board and I'm expressing an opinion.



No it's not.

It's a community and you're being anti-social within that community.

Stop or fuck off out.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 27, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> Sun is the only paper this morning to not have anything about the verdict on their front page - relegated to pg5/6.
> 
> 
> Scum.


Cowardly fucking craven filth that is nothing but owners twisted mouthpiece.


----------



## chilango (Apr 27, 2016)

Even the BBC is calling out The Sun on this.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 27, 2016)

chilango said:


> Even the BBC is calling out The Sun on this.


Well if any further evidence were needed that the scum is nothing whatsoever to do with news.


----------



## Athos (Apr 27, 2016)

chilango said:


> Even the BBC is calling out The Sun on this.


All digs at the scum are well deserved, but I don't remember the state broadcaster being above reproach, itself, to be honest.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Apr 27, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> Sun is the only paper this morning to not have anything about the verdict on their front page - relegated to pg5/6.
> 
> 
> Scum.



And The Times.


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 27, 2016)

Mr.Bishie said:


> And The Times.



Times too? 

Fuck off Murdoch.


----------



## TopCat (Apr 27, 2016)

Athos said:


> All digs at the scum are well deserved, but I don't remember the state broadcaster being above reproach, itself, to be honest.


The BBC repeated most of the worst lies. They just did it in less shouty offensive way than the Sun.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Apr 27, 2016)

Anyone hear this? 

Nick Robinson's defense of corrupt #Hillsborough cops exposes him as nothing more than a police state apologist. #r4today


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 27, 2016)

chilango said:


> No it's not.
> 
> It's a community and you're being anti-social within that community.
> 
> Stop or fuck off out.


He's gone


----------



## TopCat (Apr 27, 2016)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Anyone hear this?
> 
> Nick Robinson's defense of corrupt #Hillsborough cops exposes him as nothing more than a police state apologist. #r4today


What did he say?


----------



## Athos (Apr 27, 2016)

TopCat said:


> The BBC repeated most of the worst lies. They just did it in less shouty offensive way than the Sun.



But arguably as damaging, since it still has the veneer of quality journalism amongst middle Englanders; people who didn't read our believe the Scum still came away with the same misconceptions about what happened i.e. the state's line as proffered by the state broadcaster.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Apr 27, 2016)

TopCat said:


> What did he say?



Didn't hear it hence my asking if anyone had?


----------



## TopCat (Apr 27, 2016)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Didn't hear it hence my asking if anyone had?



Yeah sorry.


----------



## TopCat (Apr 27, 2016)

Athos said:


> But arguably as damaging, since it still has the veneer of quality journalism amongst middle Englanders; people who didn't read our believe the Scum still came away with the same misconceptions about what happened i.e. the state's line as proffered by the state broadcaster.



Exactly.


----------



## danny la rouge (Apr 27, 2016)

TopCat said:


> Kelvin Mckensie is upset with the police for the briefing they gave him back then. Apparently he is at risk in Liverpool and has been vilified for decades poor lamb.


What, is he scared drunk yobs will piss on his asphyxiating body? Or that someone will lie about this happening?


----------



## killer b (Apr 27, 2016)

danny la rouge said:


> What, is he scared drunk yobs will piss on his asphyxiating body?


I suspect that is a very real risk, were he to show his face in Liverpool.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Apr 27, 2016)

Has anyone posted the SY Police Federation statement up yet? Apols if so.



> *26 April 2016*
> 
> *Police Federation: Hillsborough inquest verdicts*
> 
> ...



Hillsborough Inquest Verdicts


----------



## DaveCinzano (Apr 27, 2016)

> We recognise the prolonged agony endured by the families. We also recognise that this was *exacerbated by various accounts from some areas*, comments which were deeply upsetting to the families.



Hmmm, who might have done that..?


----------



## likesfish (Apr 27, 2016)

Football fans already had an appalling reputation so people would belive they were to blame.
	The cover up couldnt have got so many people to belive  so quickly and easily it was the fans fault if football fan and hooligan were not linked in the majority of peoples minds already.
   Thats why south yorkshire police could do what they did and get away with it


----------



## Teaboy (Apr 27, 2016)

It strikes me that the terrible little people like Leslie we've had to endure on this thread is just a very tiny tiny insight into what the families have been through every day since this happened.  Its incredible they found the strength to carry on the fight despite this.  Truly inspiring people.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 27, 2016)

likesfish said:


> Football fans already had an appalling reputation so people would belive they were to blame.
> The cover up couldnt have got so many people to belive  so quickly and easily it was the fans fault if football fan and hooligan were not linked in the majority of peoples minds already.
> Thats why south yorkshire police could do what they did and get away with it


don't talk such awful shite.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 27, 2016)

> The officers we represent co-operated fully with the investigations and we have always been clear that what we wanted, above all, was to get to the truth of what happened on that day for all those concerned.



Yeah becuse you got west midlands police to bully witnesses and doctor statements for you instead of doing it yourselves.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 27, 2016)

danny la rouge said:


> What, is he scared drunk yobs will piss on his asphyxiating body? Or that someone will lie about this happening?


"no one pissed on kelvin mackenzie's expiring body"


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 27, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> Sun is the only paper this morning to not have anything about the verdict on their front page - relegated to pg5/6.
> 
> 
> Scum.



Their journos were barred from the families' press conference after the verdict.


----------



## likesfish (Apr 27, 2016)

People the sun the cabinet  etc wanted to belive it was the fans fault it played into exsisting prejudices much like the birmingham 6 they were irish must be terrorisits etc etc.
Much easier to slag off a group thats already viewed poorly.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 27, 2016)

likesfish said:


> People the sun the cabinet  etc wanted to belive it was the fans fault it played into exsisting prejudices much like the birmingham 6 they were irish must be terrorisits etc etc.
> Much easier to slag off a group thats already viewed poorly.


if the disaster wasn't bad enough for liverpool fans, the injured also had to endure a visit from margaret thatcher.


----------



## likesfish (Apr 27, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> if the disaster wasn't bad enough for liverpool fans, the injured also had to endure a visit from margaret thatcher.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Apr 27, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> Their journos were barred from the families' press conference after the verdict.



Not physically being somewhere and not actually speaking to people they are directly quoting has never stopped them publishing WORLD EXCLUSIVE front page stories before.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Apr 27, 2016)

Martin Belam on the failure of the newspaper of record to lead its first edition front page with anything on the Hillsborough verdict

The Times has let its readers down today over Hillsborough


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 27, 2016)

So they ran a second edition with a revised front page then


----------



## teqniq (Apr 27, 2016)

Sour grapes from Murdoch. Is anyone really surprised?


----------



## billy_bob (Apr 27, 2016)

If a billionaire media tycoon can't play the victim and refuse to acknowledge when it's proven once and for all that one of his papers told vicious lies about the double victims of a horrific tragedy and an establishment cover-up of their own compounding of that tragedy ... ISIS has won, my friends, ISIS has won.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 27, 2016)

William of Walworth said:


> I was reading that really moving post from friedaweed just before. I hope everyone reads that. I was actually lost for words on what to say in response.


Aye, me too. I was online last night when friedaweed posted it.  Couldn't think of anything to post that wouldn't have sounded trite.  Great post, great sentiments.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 27, 2016)

Great post by friedaweed last night. Always delivers the goods.

I didn't want to do it yesterday, but it may well be time to draw up a list of people and groups who now need public guilties.

(On the idiots from last night - surprisingly few of them. 10 years ago this thread would be full of them. I re-read the whole thing last night, there's maybe 4 of them in total over the last 3 1/2 years it's been running)


----------



## Artaxerxes (Apr 27, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> So they ran a second edition with a revised front page then



If so can I grab a link?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 27, 2016)

Times 2nd edition has pic of families instead of some snow. Story not on front though.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 27, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Great post by friedaweed last night. Always delivers the goods.
> 
> I didn't want to do it yesterday, but it may well be time to draw up a list of people and groups who now need public guilties.
> 
> (On the idiots from last night - surprisingly few of them. 10 years ago this thread would be full of them. I re-read the whole thing last night, there's maybe 4 of them in total over the last 3 1/2 years it's been running)


Yep, urban at it's best. Idiots to a an absolute minimum, clued up, politically sorted, angry - and compassionate.


----------



## Dogsauce (Apr 27, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> Sun is the only paper this morning to not have anything about the verdict on their front page - relegated to pg5/6.
> 
> 
> Scum.



I doubt they could pull off anything that wouldn't look like a fake apology or massive hypocrisy.  In some ways I'm happy that they're silent, it's more telling of their guilt.  They're embarrassed and it shows. 

It'd be nice to have a little protest outside their offices now, a few big banners with 'LIARS' or something.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 27, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> What rubbish. If that was the case, why were the fences at Millwall topped with spikes (as per TopCats post above?)



Not rubbish, history.
And Millwall's fence wasn't topped with spikes, it was topped with rotating drums.


----------



## danny la rouge (Apr 27, 2016)

Dogsauce said:


> I doubt they could pull off anything that wouldn't look like a fake apology or massive hypocrisy.  In some ways I'm happy that they're silent, it's more telling of their guilt.  They're embarrassed and it shows.
> 
> It'd be nice to have a little protest outside their offices now, a few big banners with 'LIARS' or something.


Their so-called "apology" a few years back was "poor us, we were tricked" and "a big boy did it and left us to take the blame".  It was pathetic. They missed their opportunity. Anything they do or say now should rightly be treated with utter disdain.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 27, 2016)

danny la rouge said:


> Their so-called "apology" a few years back was "poor us, we were tricked" and "a big boy did it and left us to take the blame".  It was pathetic. They missed their opportunity. Anything they do or say now should rightly be treated with utter disdain.


yeh cos either they've been lied to on a daily basis over a vast range of issues and bought all the bullshit: or (and i think this is more likely) they're scum.


----------



## danny la rouge (Apr 27, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh cos either they've been lied to on a daily basis over a vast range of issues (obvious e.gs. brum 6, tott 3, etc etc) and bought all the bullshit: or (and i think this is more likely) they're scum.


Yup. The only thing they're ever sorry about is losing readers. It'd be great therefore if people could make them really, really, really sorry.


----------



## chilango (Apr 27, 2016)

If there was any accountability The Sun would be shut down and its managers barred from ever working in journalism/media again.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 27, 2016)

TopCat said:


> The police were all about subdgegation. So many of the measures they apply to protesters they honed first on us. They were indiscriminate in their force. Turned many a mild lad into a fierce opponent.



I first learned how to ginger a horse while walking the gauntlet of mountie and flat-foot filth from Boleyn to Upton Park station. Stood me in good stead at Wapping.


----------



## Favelado (Apr 27, 2016)

What is "gingering a horse"?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 27, 2016)

Favelado said:


> What is "gingering a horse"?





> An old school equestrian practice, a piece of ginger would be inserted into a horse’s anus just before the start of a parade; the horse would then keep its tail up due to the irritating burning sensation whenever lowered, leading to that arced tail aesthetic so popular amongst horsey folk.
> 
> Also known as “gingering,” or “gingering the tail,” it was common among horsemen, showmen, and even soldiers; in other words, pretty much any horse-based job that requires a horse to look as elegant as possible, all the while surreptitiously having ginger rammed in the poor thing’s rectum. In fact, it became so popular that horse show organisers had to ban it and “ginger swabbing” was deployed to detect ginger in or around the horse’s anus. (And you think your job is bad?)


Root Ginger Is a Dominatrix's Secret Weapon | MUNCHIES


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 27, 2016)

TopCat said:


> It's a common enough attitude. People are brought up to respect the police. They find it hard to compute the big lie they have been forced to suck on all their life.



My dad managed to get to his fifties before he found out the real truth about the OB...at a Norwich home match. He didn't like them previously, but believed the "few bad apples" _schtick_. Then he saw a group of coppers go garrity at a single female supporter who mouthed off at them, and found himself trying to chin a copper.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 27, 2016)

Favelado said:


> What is "gingering a horse"?



It's what Pickman's model says, although the favoured method among us povs was a Marigold smeared with Colman's English Mustard, and then stick a finger up the horse's arse.

Yes, it's cruel to the horse - although it causes no lasting damage.

Yes, it also makes the horse hard to control, and means the mountie and his mount have to withdraw. It's a bit more humane than laying down ball bearings or caltrops.


----------



## Favelado (Apr 27, 2016)

Couldn't you have done it to the copper instead of the horse?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 27, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> It's what Pickman's model says, although the favoured method among us povs was a Marigold smeared with Colman's English Mustard, and then stick a finger up the horse's arse.
> 
> Yes, it's cruel to the horse - although it causes no lasting damage.
> 
> Yes, it also makes the horse hard to control, and means the mountie and his mount have to withdraw. It's a bit more humane than laying down ball bearings or caltrops.


fortunately, perhaps for all concerned, it is rather harder to insert a mustard covered glove into a copper's arse.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 27, 2016)

Favelado said:


> Couldn't you have done it to the copper instead of the horse?


there are obstacles like clothes in the way

not to mention most cops on public order duty wear buttplugs to prevent them soiling themselves.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 27, 2016)

Favelado said:


> Couldn't you have done it to the copper instead of the horse?



Only at risk of a charge of sexual assault.


----------



## billy_bob (Apr 27, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> fortunately, perhaps for all concerned, it is rather harder to insert a mustard covered glove into a copper's arse.



That's what makes it all the more worth attempting, and satisfying to achieve.


----------



## pesh (Apr 27, 2016)

I think I caught a face full of the grit that was going around last night while watching the news.
So glad the lies are being put to bed and the families of the 96 are finally getting justice.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 27, 2016)

Good piece here that outlines why every myth the idiots parrot has now been demolished. Eleanor Barlow has done great work over the last few years.

The Hillsborough myths exposed by the inquests as a tissue of lies


----------



## Favelado (Apr 27, 2016)

Is this really happening? It's all too good to be true.


----------



## billy_bob (Apr 27, 2016)

Favelado said:


> Is this really happening? It's all too good to be true.



I know what you mean - I watched a lot of news coverage last night feeling as angry as ever at the lies and smears people have had to live with, but also almost in tears hearing Margaret Aspinall and others speak - of disbelief that it's finally come to this.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 27, 2016)

Favelado said:


> BBC News not mentioning how key they were in spreading the lies in the hours and days after the disaster. It wasn't all The Sun you know.


John Moston was saying  live on air that the fans broke the gate and 'caused' the deaths at 3.13. Duckenfield's lie was supposed to have take place at 3.15.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 27, 2016)

Sorry if this is a derail, but conspiraloons should think about Hillsborough.  It was a 'conspiracy', with state coordination, coordination with the press, an attempt to use all the tools in their bag.  It worked because of that coordination, because of carefully nurtured stereotypes, because of process and because they hold all the cards.  No fucking lizards, no mind control, just the unrelenting use of mundane power to cover up the killing of 96 people.  And just the same, it was finally beaten by people seeking the truth out, but not 'truthseekers'. No arcane knowledge, no special access - it was a truth that people who were there on the day knew from the very start.  Massive role for investigative journalists and people like Burnham, but most of all it was just the families refusing to give in.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 27, 2016)

Wilf said:


> Sorry if this is a derail, but conspiraloons should think about Hillsborough.  It was a 'conspiracy', with state coordination, coordination with the press, an attempt to use all the tools in their bag.  It worked because of that coordination, because of carefully nurtured stereotypes, because of process and because they hold all the cards.  No fucking lizards, no mind control, just the unrelenting use of mundane power to cover up the killing of 96 people.  And just the same, it was finally beaten by people seeking the truth out, but not 'truthseekers'. No arcane knowledge, no special access - it was a truth that people who were there on the day knew from the very start.  Massive role for investigative journalists and people like Burnham, but most of all it was just the families refusing to give in.


yeh but precisely because it was a conspiracy it has no interest for the 'loons


----------



## editor (Apr 27, 2016)

Fucking hell. Every time a Hillsborough story comes on the TV that's focussing on the people and the families involved, I end up a blubbering wreck. Their fight for justice has been amazing.


----------



## belboid (Apr 27, 2016)

David Crompton - SYP chief Constable - suspended


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 27, 2016)

Reel them in.


----------



## gawkrodger (Apr 27, 2016)

Obv. not his greatest fan, but this is good from Andy Burnham

Here's Andy Burnham's emotional Hillsborough speech to MPs in full


----------



## danny la rouge (Apr 27, 2016)

belboid said:


> David Crompton - SYP chief Constable - suspended


South Yorkshire police chief suspended over Hillsborough verdict


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 27, 2016)

danny la rouge said:


> South Yorkshire police chief suspended over Hillsborough verdict


tbh it's too little too late


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 27, 2016)

gawkrodger said:


> Obv. not his greatest fan, but this is good from Andy Burnham
> 
> Here's Andy Burnham's emotional Hillsborough speech to MPs in full


Connects it to orgreave. Good lad.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 27, 2016)

He makes a great point about funding.


----------



## steveo87 (Apr 27, 2016)

.


----------



## Voley (Apr 27, 2016)

Favelado said:


> Is this really happening? It's all too good to be true.


Real sense of disbelief here, too, mate. I never believed we'd get _this_. Not in my wildest dreams. Right up to hearing that the jury had made their decision quickly I was thinking 'Here we go. Another fucking whitewash, then'. But they got it totally right.

Prosecutions now, please. And serious time for anyone involved in the cover-up.


----------



## chilango (Apr 27, 2016)

If the News of the World can get shut down then frankly The Sun should too.


----------



## nino_savatte (Apr 27, 2016)

TopCat said:


> Kelvin Mckensie is upset with the police for the briefing they gave him back then. Apparently he is at risk in Liverpool and has been vilified for decades poor lamb.


Diddums. Poor wee cunt.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 27, 2016)

chilango said:


> If the News of the World can get shut down then frankly The Sun should too.


but only after all the journalists have been defenestrated save one, from whose entrails rupert murdoch is hanged.


----------



## Voley (Apr 27, 2016)

gawkrodger said:


> Obv. not his greatest fan, but this is good from Andy Burnham
> 
> Here's Andy Burnham's emotional Hillsborough speech to MPs in full


Great speech. I'm not his biggest fan, either, but he's been really helpful in this. He took it on the chin when he got shouted down at Anfield 7 years ago and reacted in the best way he could.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 27, 2016)

Voley said:


> Great speech. I'm not his biggest fan, either, but he's been really helpful in this. He took it on the chin when he got shouted down at Anfield 7 years ago and reacted in the best way he could.


yeh it's a game of two halves and in the second the boy done good


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 27, 2016)

Watch  the fall out as they blame each other.


----------



## treelover (Apr 27, 2016)

Just noticed at the vigil they are using the Banner with the 96 Cups with the names of the lost on, made at the time at my Arts Management Training Centre, it became a sort of shrine.


----------



## gawkrodger (Apr 27, 2016)

predictably, the turn out to the vigil event in Liverpool looks very well attended


----------



## Plumdaff (Apr 27, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> Yeah becuse you got west midlands police to bully witnesses and doctor statements for you instead of doing it yourselves.



Middup, the Police Fed spokesperson, was one of the most enthusiastic repeaters of the smears, and it was a Police Fed meeting that was the source for the Sun. They just keep lying.


----------



## thirddail (Apr 27, 2016)

danny la rouge said:


> What's that meant to imply? "Stuart Campbell speaks": _he_ is who is responsible for those words and views.



Exactly what it read as. Scot Nationalist poured money into his campaigns time and time again despite his vile positions.


----------



## TopCat (Apr 27, 2016)

belboid said:


> David Crompton - SYP chief Constable - suspended


Yay!


----------



## TopCat (Apr 27, 2016)

gawkrodger said:


> Obv. not his greatest fan, but this is good from Andy Burnham
> 
> Here's Andy Burnham's emotional Hillsborough speech to MPs in full


I am looking at him with a much kinder eye.


----------



## TopCat (Apr 27, 2016)

Plumdaff said:


> Middup, the Police Fed spokesperson, was one of the most enthusiastic repeaters of the smears, and it was a Police Fed meeting that was the source for the Sun. They just keep lying.


The police fed are in the same fetid stinking pool as the POA in my mind. Forget workers in uniform, more a complete bunch of immoral cunts who need to be taught a fucking hard lesson.


----------



## billy_bob (Apr 27, 2016)

Anyone see the Major of Liverpool's speech just now? mrs_bob says it was pretty fiery. Took aim at Boris, amongst other things.

I'm not finding it online yet - if someone else does please post.


----------



## YouSir (Apr 27, 2016)

TopCat said:


> I am looking at him with a much kinder eye.



Strange to see him standing for something with some passion. Hints of a good man, shame he didn't show it earlier.


----------



## TopCat (Apr 27, 2016)

You 


YouSir said:


> Strange to see him standing for something with some passion. Hints of a good man, shame he didn't show it earlier.


No matter how far gone you gone, you can always turn around.


----------



## billy_bob (Apr 27, 2016)

TopCat said:


> I am looking at him with a much kinder eye.



What it does show, though, is the appalling cognitive dissonance New Labour types are capable of. If Burnham's main contribution to history is this then he'll come out well on balance, and maybe deserves to. It's clear there's a man of humanity and principles in there somewhere. But like Hain and Straw and Benn (H) and so many others he seems to be able to breezily shrug these off when there's neoliberalizin' to be done.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Apr 27, 2016)

To be fair to Burnham I believe he's been talking about Hillsborough for quite a long time.

Which doesn't make him a suitable party leader but credit where it's due.


----------



## billy_bob (Apr 27, 2016)

I agree - I've no doubt he's genuine, not just catching the bandwagon - you can see it in his face (he's reading the names now on BBC news, at the memorial/vigil). If only we got a bit more of that empathy and sincerity out of politicians...


----------



## billy_bob (Apr 27, 2016)

Margaret Aspinall (her speech on the news now) could make a fine politician, mind.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 27, 2016)

TopCat said:


> You
> 
> No matter how far gone you gone, you can always turn around.



He did turn around.

You always can.


----------



## TopCat (Apr 27, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> He did turn around.
> 
> You always can.


Totally this.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 27, 2016)

TopCat said:


> Totally this.


It's hard comrade but it's the truth.


----------



## TopCat (Apr 27, 2016)




----------



## elbows (Apr 27, 2016)

More:



> The Chief Constable of South Yorkshire Police, David Crompton, had to be suspended because of his "cavalier attitude" to the Hillsborough disaster, Professor Phil Scraton has said.
> 
> The author of the Hillsborough Independent Panel said the chief constable had written an email "immediately before the panel report came out... and the phrase that is used in that email is that 'if we don't pull together we are going to be roadkill'... To use that kind of a phrase in an email which starts 'Hey gents', it showed the cavalier attitude of the senior management of the South Yorkshire Police."



Hillsborough: Senior police 'had cavalier attitude' - BBC News


----------



## treelover (Apr 27, 2016)

Watch O' Brien eviscerate Murdochs slimehound.


----------



## killer b (Apr 27, 2016)

_'if we don't pull together we are going to be roadkill'._

Looks like he was right there, at least.


----------



## danny la rouge (Apr 27, 2016)

thirddail said:


> Exactly what it read as. Scot Nationalist poured money into his campaigns time and time again despite his vile positions.


Well it's hard to know how to read it. 

"Scot Nationalist". Do you mean the SNP? Because they didn't. Nor is he a member of the party. He did successfully raise money from his readers, but I have feeling that'll reduce somewhat. He seems to have disgusted quite a few. 

But to suggest his views on Hillsborough are somehow representative of either independence supporters or of Nationalists (capital N) is as inaccurate as saying they're representative of residents of Somerset, where he resides.


----------



## elbows (Apr 27, 2016)

killer b said:


> _'if we don't pull together we are going to be roadkill'._
> 
> Looks like he was right there, at least.



Roadkill doesn't get a chance to make shit propaganda videos a day before being killed. Also a shameless term to use given the actual unlawful killings, and given that much of the latest grief that got this bloke suspended involves painful echo of the phenomenon whereby more attention is paid to saving the life of peoples careers than saving actual lives and reducing the suffering of friends and relatives.

The propaganda, oh what a polished tool police force youtube channels are (not)!


----------



## William of Walworth (Apr 27, 2016)

Was catching up on today's posts and ....

In that sound Martin Belam blog sticking the boot into today's Times he linked to this superb (and very difficult-to-read ) piece by Mike Bracken from April 2009. I know plenty on this thread have read it and will remember it, but I really recommend a re-read now :

This was my Hillsborough : Twenty years after Britain's worst football stadium disaster, in which 96 people died, Mike Bracken shares his painful memories for the first time


----------



## Hocus Eye. (Apr 27, 2016)

There is yet another battle to be fought about police corruption. It was mentioned in his speech to the Commons by Burnham but also by one of the Hillsborough victims relatives on Channel 4 News tonight. It is Orgreave. Wouldn't it be good if another piece of Thatcher's meddling could be exposed?


----------



## teqniq (Apr 27, 2016)

Andy Burnham mentioned Orgreave in relation to this (and yes he has gone up in my opinion) including references to parts of the enquiry which were redacted and in which he suggested the police used tactics which were derived from operational policies they first bought into play there and then subsequently used at Hillsborough, so I don't think it's going to 'go away'.


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 27, 2016)

Orgreave, Hillsborough and the Rotherham abuse outrage. SYP are due a reckoning. I hope they are laid awake in their beds waiting for the knock on the door.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Apr 27, 2016)

Burnham released documents after being booed at the Memorial Service a few years ago, so he started the current ball rolling. Makes a difference from earlier New Labour efforts to keep the cover up going.


----------



## where to (Apr 27, 2016)

sleaterkinney said:


> Burnham released documents after being booed at the Memorial Service a few years ago, so he started the current ball rolling. Makes a difference from earlier New Labour efforts to keep the cover up going.



Yep.  April 2009 - just 13 months before their government ended.

Two points about that: (1) New Labour did nout for 12 years and (2) if it wasn't for Burnham being heckled, and responding to with humanity, this battle would have been lost to history as Labour lost power.  there was nothing inevitable about this victory - the families had to be fight every step of the way and even then they were a whisker from failure.

I think it was in Gordon Brown's autobiography that Burnham called him from Anfield, shortly after being heckled and said 'we need to act'.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Apr 27, 2016)

where to said:


> Yep.  April 2009 - just 13 months before their government ended.
> 
> Two points about that: (1) New Labour did nout for 12 years and (2) if it wasn't for Burnham being heckled, and responding to with humanity, this battle would have been lost to history as Labour lost power.  there was nothing inevitable about this victory - the families had to be fight every step of the way and even then they were a whisker from failure.
> 
> I think it was in Gordon Brown's autobiography that Burnham called him from Anfield, shortly after being heckled and said 'we need to act'.


1) No, remember Jack Straw's cover-up?


----------



## Favelado (Apr 27, 2016)

sleaterkinney said:


> 1) No, remember Jack Straw's cover-up?



That was Blair years wasn't it? Help me remember. I'm not saying I'm right.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Apr 27, 2016)

Favelado said:


> That was Blair years wasn't it? Help me remember. I'm not saying I'm right.


Yeah, the Stuart-Smith inquiry.


----------



## where to (Apr 27, 2016)

sleaterkinney said:


> 1) No, remember Jack Straw's cover-up?



aye. you look back at Jack Straw and wonder, was he an incompetent idiot, or actually working for the enemy all along?  and i mean, really working.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 27, 2016)

where to said:


> aye. you look back at Jack Straw and wonder, was he an incompetent idiot, or actually working for the enemy all along?  and i mean, really working.


Along with majority of NL members..._was_ the enemy.


----------



## gawkrodger (Apr 27, 2016)

two interesting items in the Granuaid

1) 'Internal revolt' at the Times over their first cover

Times front page omitting Hillsborough changed after staff revolt


----------



## gawkrodger (Apr 27, 2016)

2) A pretty explicit, for lack of better description pro-working class 'class war' piece

The Hillsborough verdict shatters the fantasy that class war doesn’t exist

I think this verdict (also coming at time of NHS/junior doctor/Philip Green/constant stuff about banks etc) is potentially going to have really significant long term effects in the body politic.

Completely anecdotal, but the last few weeks I'm coming across so many friends/acquaintances who are 'non-political' getting really angry (in a good way)


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Apr 28, 2016)

"They" only call it class war when we fight back. Bring it!


----------



## Ted Striker (Apr 28, 2016)

Athos said:


> All digs at the scum are well deserved, but I don't remember the state broadcaster being above reproach, itself, to be honest.





butchersapron said:


> John Moston was saying  live on air that the fans broke the gate and 'caused' the deaths at 3.13. Duckenfield's lie was supposed to have take place at 3.15.



(Was originally a reply to Athos tho quoting BA too)

What is/was a reminder of the completeness of this - is the commentary of John Motson on the day. He (and to an element of defence he does describe it as 'a line'), and blamed it on ticketless fans breaking down the gate.*

Motty never lies...What Motty said was gospel....Night follows day, Motty tells us the scoreline, Motty tells everyone watching the telly it was ticketless fans breaking down the gate...

Not to dig him out personally, but I actually think that was a huge part in the adoption of the lies.




Favelado said:


> That was Blair years wasn't it? Help me remember. I'm not saying I'm right.



Yes...and there's a semi famous note from Blair where he remarks to Straw "What's the point?" (Of the Stuart Smith re-examination). Pure textbook NL lip service to any working class concern, all with a public image to appear the opposite.

Of all the  praise heaped on the campaigners and family, how none of them launched for Stuart Smith(?) When he mentioned about turning up late shows a restraint and composure I could never have.


----------



## gawkrodger (Apr 28, 2016)

words fail me, so I'll just post the video


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Apr 28, 2016)

Anyone seen the MOTD footage with Des Lynam commentating on the unfolding events of that day? The BBC bias went out the window, he reported exactly how it was. Jimmy Hill was in the box too, but was silent with shock


----------



## where to (Apr 28, 2016)

Burnham suggested last year that Blair didn't want to upset Murdoch:

Blair didn't order H'boro inquiry as not to offend Murdoch, says Andy Burnham


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Apr 28, 2016)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Anyone seen the MOTD footage with Des Lynam commentating on the unfolding events of that day? The BBC bias went out the window, he reported exactly how it was. Jimmy Hill was in the box too, but was silent with shock



I think the whole episode of that is on youtube.


----------



## Athos (Apr 28, 2016)

gawkrodger said:


> words fail me, so I'll just post the video




Very moving.  I honestly think I've cried more in the last two days than I have in the preceding 20 years.


----------



## danny la rouge (Apr 28, 2016)

where to said:


> Burnham suggested last year that Blair didn't want to upset Murdoch:
> 
> Blair didn't order H'boro inquiry as not to offend Murdoch, says Andy Burnham


But he didn't suggest that publicly at the time that Blair was blocking an inquiry. Burnham has done well recently, but if he thought that at the time he should have done something about it. 

Unless I missed his criticism at the time.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 28, 2016)

FWIW, in his R4 'Today' (Hillsborough) interview this morning, Blunkett identified 3 disasters of SYP as Hillsborough, CSE & Orgreave and explicitly called for an independent inquiry into the policing of the entire miners' strike inc. Orgreave.


----------



## Hocus Eye. (Apr 28, 2016)

brogdale said:


> FWIW, in his R4 'Today' (Hillsborough) interview this morning, Blunkett identified 3 disasters of SYP as Hillsborough, CSE & Orgreave and explicitly called for an independent inquiry into the policing of the entire miners' strike inc. Orgreave.


And the particular point that Blunket made was that the Orgreave enquiry needed to be a national one to avoid the costs falling on South Yorkshire exclusively, like the Hillsborough ones. Blunket was surprisingly good on the radio this morning, very different from his awful performances when he was Home Secretary.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 28, 2016)

Hocus Eye. said:


> And the particular point that Blunket made was that the Orgreave enquiry needed to be a national one to avoid the costs falling on South Yorkshire exclusively, like the Hillsborough ones. Blunket was surprisingly good on the radio this morning, very different from his awful performances when he was Home Secretary.


he's had some years to practice


----------



## Athos (Apr 28, 2016)

brogdale said:


> FWIW, in his R4 'Today' (Hillsborough) interview this morning, Blunkett identified 3 disasters of SYP as Hillsborough, CSE & Orgreave and explicitly called for an independent inquiry into the policing of the entire miners' strike inc. Orgreave.



If only we'd had someone like him in a position to do something about all this years ago.


----------



## spartacus mills (Apr 28, 2016)

No remorse from the South Yorkshire National Association of Retired Police Officers: Hillsborough police officers told they 'did a good job'


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 28, 2016)

spartacus mills said:


> No remorse from the South Yorkshire National Association of Retired Police Officers: Hillsborough police officers told they 'did a good job'


yeh well in their eyes they did


----------



## Hocus Eye. (Apr 28, 2016)

Athos said:


> If only we'd had someone like him in a position to do something about all this years ago.


----------



## spartacus mills (Apr 28, 2016)

Filth is such an apt term for them.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 28, 2016)

Athos said:


> If only we'd had someone like him in a position to do something about all this years ago.


Quite.
I suppose my (FWIW) point was....that if even Blunkett is 'on message' with the need for an inquiry into the policing of the miners' strike...it is a (potentially) encouraging sign?


----------



## Hocus Eye. (Apr 28, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Quite.
> I suppose my (FWIW) point was....that if even Blunkett is 'on message' with the need for an inquiry into the policing of the miners' strike...it is a (potentially) encouraging sign?


I think we are going to have to repeatedly mention Orgreave as much as possible in all forums (in the true meaning of the word) until it becomes an embarrassment to the people in power.


----------



## Athos (Apr 28, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Quite.
> I suppose my (FWIW) point was....that if even Blunkett is 'on message' with the need for an inquiry into the policing of the miners' strike...it is a (potentially) encouraging sign?



He's just another careerist cunt who blows with the prevailing wind.  All lip service.  I'll be encouraged when something actually happens.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 28, 2016)

Athos said:


> He's just another careerist cunt who blows with the prevailing wind.  All lip service.  I'll be encouraged when something actually happens.


I actually suspect that the real reason he felt able to speak the truth was precisely because his 'career' is over to the extent that he has reached the 'zenith' of taking ermine.
Like you, I'll believe when I see it, but I think the Orgreave justice campaign must feel that the Hillsborough outcome is an inspiration.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 28, 2016)

Hocus Eye. said:


> I think we are going to have to repeatedly mention Orgreave as much as possible in all forums (in the true meaning of the word) until it becomes an embarrassment to the people in power.


the fact it isn't much mentioned is precisely because it is such an embarrassment to them.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 28, 2016)

Even the local, vermin-friendly, rag is having a pop at Ingham...


----------



## belboid (Apr 28, 2016)

Dozens of police officers refuse to speak to Hillsborough crime probe

Coppers refuse to cooperate with Operation Resolve as it would be 'too traumatic' - twats


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 28, 2016)

belboid said:


> Dozens of police officers refuse to speak to Hillsborough crime probe
> 
> Coppers refuse to cooperate with Operation Resolve as it would be 'too traumatic' - twats


The stars articles get shorter and shorter. They - or Johnathon Corke - have done great work on this for years now when many preferred not to and should really be going to town over this.


----------



## belboid (Apr 28, 2016)

That is just one of their articles, still six pages in today's paper. 

My mate Mike worked for the star till he died last year. His first week culminated with him going to report on the match. This is probably the first bit of decent journalism in the rag since then. Real shame he never got to see it.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 28, 2016)

belboid said:


> That is just one of their articles, still six pages in today's paper.
> 
> My mate Mike worked for the star till he died last year. His first week culminated with him going to report on the match. This is probably the first bit of decent journalism in the rag since then. Real shame he never got to see it.


Hang on - this is sheff star, i thought it was daily star where Corke works. My fault that.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 28, 2016)

belboid said:


> Dozens of police officers refuse to speak to Hillsborough crime probe
> 
> Coppers refuse to cooperate with Operation Resolve as it would be 'too traumatic' - twats


this is surely the great job the retired syp were talking about


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 28, 2016)

Mr.Bishie said:


> "They" only call it class war when we fight back. Bring it!



Been sharpening your entrenching tool, Bish?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Apr 28, 2016)

What did Norman Bettison and David Crompton talk about?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 28, 2016)

DaveCinzano said:


> What did Norman Bettison and David Crompton talk about?


Amazing that Crompton actually believed that the media who they colluded with and manipulated (and vice versa) in order to smear and lie about the victims was victim-friendly.

From those calls and texts he sounds like a youtube commenter. How did he rise so far and for so long?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Apr 28, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Hang on - this is sheff star, i thought it was daily star where Corke works. My fault that.


He's freelance anyway, not a staff reporter


----------



## DaveCinzano (Apr 28, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> How did he rise so far and for so long?



Youthful good looks and consummate charm


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 28, 2016)

DaveCinzano said:


> He's freelance anyway, not a staff reporter


His tax affairs are his own! Anyway, no one else seemed to be prepared to buy his stuff.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Apr 28, 2016)

Total smackdown of Crompton by Neil Wilby:

David Crompton: The South Yorkshire Police years


----------



## where to (Apr 28, 2016)

danny la rouge said:


> But he didn't suggest that publicly at the time that Blair was blocking an inquiry. Burnham has done well recently, but if he thought that at the time he should have done something about it.
> 
> Unless I missed his criticism at the time.



absolutely.  i watched the video of him being heckled in April 2009 last night.  its actually astonishing hearing his words now, offering mere sympathy rather than action. that takes some brass neck as a Merseysider, in front of 30K of your own.  made me wonder whether he actually wanted to trigger something that day.  their time in office was likely coming to an end. was their relationship with the police now expendable? compared to the long term harm opening the books would do to the tories.

its also an interesting angle on the Sun's decision - in September 2009 - to switch to backing the Tories.  or did they already know this was on the cards?


----------



## Bedgewick3 (Apr 28, 2016)

How does a Liverpudlian spell justice?

R E V E N G E

Pass the sick bag Andy


----------



## Athos (Apr 28, 2016)

Bedgewick3 said:


> How does a Liverpudlian spell justice?
> 
> R E V E N G E
> 
> Pass the sick bag Andy



Nice of you to pop back, Leslie, but there's really no need to stay.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 28, 2016)

Never ends.


----------



## belboid (Apr 28, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Never ends.


SYP are all but dead. There have been moves to merge them with Humberside already, that'll go through within the year now, I reckon.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Apr 28, 2016)

butchersapron said:
			
		

> From those calls and texts he sounds like a youtube commenter. How did he rise so far and for so long?




Daddy is a Sir who also said the dead deserved to die.


----------



## agricola (Apr 28, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Never ends.



That John Buttress thing is in itself a scandal, and again only really covered in any real detail locally and in _Private Eye_.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Apr 29, 2016)

agricola said:


> That John Buttress thing is in itself a scandal, and again only really covered in any real detail locally and in _Private Eye_.


He's about on Twitter and amenable to discussion


----------



## William of Walworth (Apr 29, 2016)

Apologies for posting this late (and if it's been linked to already), but Brian's Reade's post-inquest interview with Margaret Apinall in the Mirror stopped me in my tracks yesterday [i.e. Wednesday]  ..... 

I also thought David Conn's Guardian report on the St Georges Hall rally was pretty damned good ... it went online on Wednesday but I read it in Thursday's paper edition ...


----------



## William of Walworth (Apr 29, 2016)

I've been known to pick up the Sun on the odd rare occasion ... eg when people leave it in the pub or at work etc. There was a copy lying around in the work canteen today (ie Thursday) but I left it alone.

*I'm never going to do pick it up ever again*. Wish I'd fucking told myself to 'leave it it's not worth it!' 30-40 years ago ....<   at self> (to be clear, I've *never* bought it).

Hardly news  , but today's shitrag had some made-up bollocks about PC gorn mad in a creche as the front page headline.

Almost all other front pages featured Crompton getting kicked out, or other Hillsborough stories.


----------



## zippyRN (Apr 29, 2016)

Bedgewick3 said:


> How does a Liverpudlian spell justice?
> 
> R E V E N G E
> 
> Pass the sick bag Andy



In some cases it  appears so - such as those calling for the scalp of Yorkshire Ambulance's CE  who has only been in post less than a year  so can't even be held to account over the briefing  of the YAS official  line in the inquests...  the  medical cover  for events  stuff  was changed drastically in the light of Taylor;s original report in the early 90s

However i do get the feeling  heads will roll for the police  actions AFTER the day ... and  some of the stuff that WMP  were part of in that period.


----------



## Favelado (Apr 29, 2016)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Anyone seen the MOTD footage with Des Lynam commentating on the unfolding events of that day? The BBC bias went out the window, he reported exactly how it was. Jimmy Hill was in the box too, but was silent with shock



I'm watching this now and hadn't seen it before. Extraordinary footage. Lynam gives a perfect account there and then. The truth was always there if people could get over their prejudice.


----------



## Favelado (Apr 29, 2016)

zippyRN said:


> In some cases it  appears so - such as those calling for the scalp of Yorkshire Ambulance's CE  who has only been in post less than a year  so can't even be held to account over the briefing  of the YAS official  line in the inquests...  the  medical cover  for events  stuff  was changed drastically in the light of Taylor;s original report in the early 90s
> 
> However i do get the feeling  heads will roll for the police  actions AFTER the day ... and  some of the stuff that WMP  were part of in that period.



Oh fuck off.


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Apr 29, 2016)

Favelado said:


> I'm watching this now and hadn't seen it before. Extraordinary footage. Lynam gives a perfect account there and then. The truth was always there if people could get over their prejudice.


Can you post a link please


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Apr 29, 2016)

Probably this ... ?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Apr 29, 2016)

Or this MOTD, with Lynam talking to Hill?


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Apr 29, 2016)

I still am astounded at the verdict.   I never thought it would come.  

I remember well that day and subsequent days in Liverpool.  Everyone knew people at the match and the shock and grief  rippled out to the whole of Merseyside 

Even though I knew the truth immediately from a friend at the match the scale of the cover up is breathtaking still.  There are still thoughts and feelings that can only happen after a vindication.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Apr 29, 2016)

dp


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Apr 29, 2016)

DaveCinzano said:


> Or this MOTD, with Lynam talking to Hill?




Yeah that's the one.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Apr 29, 2016)

Straight away they've got a handle on it - no crowd trouble, police opened the gate, police didn't properly direct the crowd, and very quickly it all spiraled out of control with dire consequences


----------



## Favelado (Apr 29, 2016)

*d p


----------



## Athos (Apr 29, 2016)

Given that the truth was quite obvious (to anyone interested in the truth) from a very early stage, it makes you realise the chutzpah of the establishment; that can only be a product of having got away with it at Orgreave.


----------



## chandlerp (Apr 29, 2016)

deleted for stupidity


----------



## laptop (Apr 29, 2016)

Don't see this posted:

Hillsborough families to sue police for 'abuse on industrial scale'


----------



## elbows (Apr 29, 2016)

laptop said:


> Don't see this posted:
> 
> Hillsborough families to sue police for 'abuse on industrial scale'



And this even more recently:



> Lawyers for 20 families of the victims of the Hillsborough disaster have asked the home secretary to apply remedial measures to South Yorkshire Police.
> 
> Broudie Jackson Canter (BJC) Solicitors said Theresa May should send a team in to examine the force "root and branch".



Hillsborough: Families want 'remedial measures' for South Yorkshire Police - BBC News


----------



## where to (Apr 29, 2016)

disband the SYP.


----------



## likesfish (Apr 29, 2016)

Yes the entire high command everyone above inspector needs to be gone syp is a small club those not directly guilty are guilty of lack of moral courage.
   They knew the cover up was going on and said nothing.
  Leadership invovles courage  and honour doing the right thing on a bad day syp failed on both of those counts the rank and file may have an excuse the leadership none.


----------



## William of Walworth (Apr 30, 2016)

If I'd seen any of that day-of-the-disaster footage back then, I have no real memory of it now  

Just watched it all now though.

No words


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 30, 2016)

likesfish said:


> Yes the entire high command everyone above inspector needs to be gone syp is a small club those not directly guilty are guilty of lack of moral courage.
> They knew the cover up was going on and said nothing.
> Leadership invovles courage  and honour doing the right thing on a bad day syp failed on both of those counts the rank and file may have an excuse the leadership none.



Thatcher taught leadership cadres everywhere that the essence of leadership was adeptness at passing the buck and the blame - something most police forces have taken to heart, from top to bottom.

As for disbanding the SYP, the rot goes much deeper. The upper echelons of every police "service" in the UK have long been filled with managerialists - people who know all about "metrics" and "co-production", but fuck-all about communication, internal discipline or honour.

Every time I read this thread, I'm reminded of the film "Red Riding-'73", and the toast the coppers give at the wedding of one of them's daughter. "The North, where we do what we want". A brutal but accurate summary of the behaviour of way too many members of SYP.


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 30, 2016)

William of Walworth said:


> If I'd seen any of that day-of-the-disaster footage back then, I have no real memory of it now
> 
> Just watched it all now though.
> 
> No words


I watched it again on Tuesday for some stupid reason. 
Dunno why as it's imprinted on my memory as I saw it unfold on the telly when I was 16, just rooted to the spot in horror.
I remember seeing the Bradford fire on tely too, and Heisel. Dunno why my parents didn't stop us watching as all were horrific, but especially the Bradford fire, which gave me nightmares. I know they show footage of the Bradford fire in safety training to show just how quickly fire can spread.


----------



## Bedgewick3 (Apr 30, 2016)

laptop said:


> Don't see this posted:
> 
> Hillsborough families to sue police for 'abuse on industrial scale'



This must be wrong.  Nobody in LIverpool was  motivated by the possibility of compensation.  It was a matter of principle


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 30, 2016)

Bedgewick3 said:


> This must be wrong.  Nobody in LIverpool was  motivated by the possibility of compensation.  It was a matter of principle


Are you making a sarcastic suggestion that the families of the victims were, in fact, only ever after financial gain for themselves?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 30, 2016)

Oh, i note that you have previously called the demand for Justice a campaign for Revenge. You sound great and really worth bothering with.


----------



## Favelado (Apr 30, 2016)

I'm sorry you're so unhappy and this is how you make yourself feel better Bedgewick3 .


----------



## Favelado (Apr 30, 2016)

The Sun blackmailed a Hillsborough family that they would publish a picture of their son dying if they didn't provide them with an alternative.


----------



## belboid (Apr 30, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Oh, i note that you have previously called the demand for Justice a campaign for Revenge. You sound great and really worth bothering with.


Almost as if he were a recently banned poster back again


----------



## teqniq (Apr 30, 2016)

Favelado said:


> The Sun blackmailed a Hillsborough family that they would publish a picture of their son dying if they didn't provide them with an alternative.



That is beyond disgusting.


----------



## laptop (Apr 30, 2016)

Bedgewick3 said:


> This must be wrong.  Nobody in LIverpool was  motivated by the possibility of compensation.  It was a matter of principle



Fuck off.

(For the benefit of any passing readers who've not been paying attention: many histories record that bringing a civil suit is often the only way to provoke actual justice.)


----------



## YouSir (Apr 30, 2016)

Bedgewick3 said:


> This must be wrong.  Nobody in LIverpool was  motivated by the possibility of compensation.  It was a matter of principle



So 27 years of campaigning, 27 years of their lives, being lied to and about, being marginalized and dismissed all a cunning ruse for a payout?


----------



## elbows (Apr 30, 2016)

Emotional scenes at Everton right now, which have just been shown on BBC Final Score.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 30, 2016)

YouSir said:


> So 27 years of campaigning, 27 years of their lives, being lied to and about, being marginalized and dismissed all a cunning ruse for a payout?


The scousers are cunning like that [/bedgewick3]


----------



## dessiato (Apr 30, 2016)

editor said:


> Fucking hell. Every time a Hillsborough story comes on the TV that's focussing on the people and the families involved, I end up a blubbering wreck. Their fight for justice has been amazing.


You and me both.


----------



## belboid (Apr 30, 2016)

minutes applause at the Tranmere kick off for all the victims at Hillsborough, and for all those who fought for justice since then


----------



## Favelado (Apr 30, 2016)

Even at the Vicente Calderón in Madrid there was a banner with "You'll Never Walk Alone" on it at today's Atleti vs. Rayo game There is something beautiful in the solidarity of this week, though of course no-one wished it had come to this.


----------



## where to (Apr 30, 2016)

scum.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 30, 2016)

Favelado said:


> Even at the Vicente Calderón in Madrid there was a banner with "You'll Never Walk Alone" on it at today's Atleti vs. Rayo game There is something beautiful in the solidarity of this week, though of course no-one wished it had come to this.



IMO it's beautiful because it shows us that "fellow-feeling" that the ability to sympathise and empathise generates - a trait that promotes solidarities, and therefore something that some of our rulers would prefer didn't exist.


----------



## where to (Apr 30, 2016)

geordies sang YNWA at St James Park today. very loud and clear.  as seen on twitter.


----------



## William of Walworth (May 1, 2016)

Did anyone see the Swansea v Liverpool coverage today?

Full respect was shown


----------



## William of Walworth (May 1, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> I watched it again on Tuesday for some stupid reason.
> Dunno why as it's imprinted on my memory as I saw it unfold on the telly when I was 16, just rooted to the spot in horror.
> I remember seeing the Bradford fire on tely too, and Heisel. Dunno why my parents didn't stop us watching as all were horrific, but especially the Bradford fire, which gave me nightmares. I know they show footage of the Bradford fire in safety training to show just how quickly fire can spread.




Fuck knows what I waa smoking/drinking at the time  , but I remember the Bradford fire live footage a whole lot better than I remember the on-the-day Hillsborough footage.

All these years after, I *really* wish I'd picked up on what was going on in Sheffield.


----------



## Favelado (May 2, 2016)

I have been reading and re-reading material related to Hillsborough today and something caught my attention.

Firstly, this page makes reference to two near-misses post Hillsborough. One at Exeter City and another at Old Trafford.

British Football Disasters

One of them appears shockingly similar in some respects and I found a Guardian article on it.

Crush to judgement

The other is an apparent incident involving lights failing at Old Trafford, perhaps leading to panic and a crush. I can't find anything that gives more information on it. Do any Urban posters know of this occurrence?


----------



## butchersapron (May 4, 2016)

Revealed: The links between Hillsborough and South Yorkshire Police’s 1984 Orgreave ‘cover-up’

Calls for a new inquiry into the 1984 Battle of Orgreave were growing tonight after previously censored documents revealed links between an alleged cover-up carried out by senior South Yorkshire Police officers at the time and the force’s actions five years later at Hillsborough.

Redacted sections of a watchdog’s report into clashes between police and striking miners reveal that the same senior officers and solicitor were involved both in the aftermath of Orgreave and of Britain’s worst sporting disaster in 1989.

Sections of the Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC) dossier, seen exclusively by , reveal that these officials became aware South Yorkshire Police officers had perjured themselves at the miners’ trial in 1984, but kept this fact secret.

Another officer interviewed about the alleged Hillsborough cover-up by South Yorkshire Police claimed that some of his colleagues were told by unspecified officers not to write anything in their notebooks at the time of Orgreave and then instructed to do the same in the aftermath of the 1989 disaster.


----------



## DotCommunist (May 9, 2016)

was watching a beeb docu earlier on the matter and it left out so much. So so much that we know. But there was a copper on it giving his testimony, talking about the notebooks etc but he wasn't all there, not 'on point' he was at times clearly struggling. God damn them for making me feel a shred of sympathy. You've had your 27 years, those others haven't and never will. And again and again I keep wanting there to be a grander reason. A conspiracy maybe, a reason that goes beyond arse covering and treating people like cattle. But thats pretty much all it was. For that...


----------



## Miss-Shelf (May 9, 2016)

Arse covering when done by those in authority uses so much power and privilege that it does become a conspiracy of a sort


----------



## butchersapron (May 9, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> was watching a beeb docu earlier on the matter and it left out so much. So so much that we know. But there was a copper on it giving his testimony, talking about the notebooks etc but he wasn't all there, not 'on point' he was at times clearly struggling. God damn them for making me feel a shred of sympathy. You've had your 27 years, those others haven't and never will. And again and again I keep wanting there to be a grander reason. A conspiracy maybe, a reason that goes beyond arse covering and treating people like cattle. But thats pretty much all it was. For that...


That copper also appears in a BBC miners strike doco - son of a miner, making anti-met arguments. He was talking then that he couldn't deal with it, yet 4 years later here he is again.

edit: i'll find the vid later.


----------



## dessiato (May 9, 2016)

It was during the miner's strike that I first spent a lot of time with the police. I'd spend time in their bars, and going to their clubs. I also worked alongside them, up to chief constable level. It was when I first realised how corrupt they are. I'm one hundred percent certain that police were directly responsible for a lot of the trouble between them and the miners. They told me that was what they'd done, and what they'd been instructed to do. I'm also 100% certain that this is not the only occasion, nor the only crimes they've been directly involved in. I only hope that the truth comes out sooner rather than later.


----------



## DotCommunist (May 9, 2016)

Miss-Shelf said:


> Arse covering when done by those in authority uses so much power and privilege that it does become a conspiracy of a sort


yeah I know, and would it really be any better if their had been some dark plan or whatever? Not at all. Its just so fucking unbelievable that they would do this. Well, its not cos we know it happened but on a human level I cannot understand how a fuckup could have been turned so easily and by so many parties into this giant 27 year fuckaround.



butchersapron said:


> That copper also appears in a BBC miners strike doco - son of a miner, making anti-met arguments. He was talking then that he couldn't deal with it, yet 4 years later here he is again.
> 
> edit: i'll find the vid later.



crocodile tears you think? the go to emotive one that humanises the OB?


----------



## butchersapron (May 9, 2016)

Real tears, but he's still there years later.


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 9, 2016)

Hillsborough

Just leave this here...we never expect great things from the beeb but still.


----------



## chandlerp (May 10, 2016)

It's a slight reworking (i.e. brought up to date) of an HBO/BBC documentary from a couple of years back.  I watched it at the time.  It was only shown outside the UK before this week because of the ongoing inquests.


----------



## butchersapron (May 10, 2016)

chandlerp said:


> It's a slight reworking (i.e. brought up to date) of an HBO/BBC documentary from a couple of years back.  I watched it at the time.  It was only shown outside the UK before this week because of the ongoing inquests.


ESPN rather than HBO. Yes, not been able to show here but easily available for anyone who really wanted to watch it. Very well done.


----------



## brogdale (May 10, 2016)

I don't know to what extent they're new, but some of the revelations in Alex Thompson's C4 News report yesterday were quite startling...

Catch up
(Former police officer alleges Hillsborough cover-up)


----------



## butchersapron (May 10, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> That copper also appears in a BBC miners strike doco - son of a miner, making anti-met arguments. He was talking then that he couldn't deal with it, yet 4 years later here he is again.
> 
> edit: i'll find the vid later.


This is he -  he later went to prison. I can't find the BBC vid of the miners strike one, though it is reffed in the piece including confirmation that he was at Orgreave.


----------



## butchersapron (May 10, 2016)

brogdale said:


> I don't know to what extent they're new, but some of the revelations in Alex Thompson's C4 News report yesterday were quite startling...
> 
> Catch up
> (Former police officer alleges Hillsborough cover-up)


Brayford has been saying this for years now. So i don't think anything new, but all part of the background picture. Not sure i really trust his intentions given his obviously close friendship with mole and possible inter-police professional rivalry i.e Brayford maybe thinking that it should have been running the operation rather than Duckenfield after Mole was moved to Barnsley.


----------



## brogdale (May 10, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Brayford has been saying this for years now. So i don't think anything new, but all part of the background picture. Not sure i really trust his intentions given his obviously close friendship with mole and possible inter-police professional rivalry i.e Brayford maybe thinking that it should have been running the operation rather than Duckenfield after Mole was moved to Barnsley.


I suspected as much, but the stuff about the club specifically asking those two to attend...is that some sort of smoke & mirrors on behalf of the club, or do you think they really were worried about Duckenfield fucking things up?


----------



## butchersapron (May 10, 2016)

brogdale said:


> I suspected as much, but the stuff about the club specifically asking those two to attend...is that some sort of smoke & mirrors on behalf of the club, or do you think they really were worried about Duckenfield fucking things up?


Hard to tell, because, well, _we just can't trust them can we? _We do know that DD did end up fucking up though. I've had a look at Brayford's evidence to the independent panel and there's nothing there to back up what he's saying, no notes or briefings between him and Mole or others, just a few crappy diagrams that don't really make him look as if he would have been any better than DD. Very amateurish in fact.


----------



## brogdale (May 10, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Hard to tell, because, well, _we just can't trust them can we? _We do know that DD did end up fucking up though. I've had a look at Brayford's evidence to the independent panel and there's nothing there to back up what he's saying, no notes or briefings between him and Mole or others, just a few crappy diagrams that don't really make him look as if he would have been any better than DD. Very amateurish in fact.


Thanks; interesting.


----------



## Voley (May 10, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Hillsborough
> 
> Just leave this here...we never expect great things from the beeb but still.


God that was hard to watch. Well made, though. Good, methodical approach. Thought I'd just about held it together until Margaret Aspinall was on at the end and it did me in good and proper. I really liked Phil Scraton who uncovered the documents in the House Of Lords - a good old-fashioned investigative journalist. He was fucking spot on with his criticism at the end, too.


----------



## Orang Utan (May 10, 2016)

I had to watch that in two sittings. such staggering contempt from the authorities for the victims.


----------



## butchersapron (May 10, 2016)

Voley said:


> God that was hard to watch. Well made, though. Good, methodical approach. Thought I'd just about held it together until Margaret Aspinall was on at the end and it did me in good and proper. I really liked Phil Scraton who uncovered the documents in the House Of Lords - a good old-fashioned investigative journalist. He was fucking spot on with his criticism at the end, too.


Academic rather than investigative journo - but much of the work he has done on this has been of an investigative nature. Partly because so few other people picked up the baton.


----------



## William of Walworth (May 11, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Hillsborough
> 
> Just leave this here...we never expect great things from the beeb but still.




Looks like I need to watch this 

Is that the same documentary that you watched, DotCommunist ?


----------



## Voley (May 11, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Academic rather than investigative journo - but much of the work he has done on this has been of an investigative nature. Partly because so few other people picked up the baton.


I've not read his book but it looks like he was one of the first to get to the heart of the matter. Due an update I'd imagine. I must read it as and when that happens.


----------



## Sprocket. (May 12, 2016)

Just watched the Hillsborough prog from Sunday on iPlayer.
It is really sickening to watch the truth having to be searched and yet still those responsible for lying about and burying that truth are still seen by many as upholders of the law.
SYP management are contemptible and beyond any hope of being sorry for their performance since they were formed.
Slightly off topic though
I was also interested to hear that on Sunday at Bramall Lane where Sheffield United were playing Scunthorpe the riot geared constables were from Durham Constabulary.


----------



## DotCommunist (May 12, 2016)

William of Walworth said:


> Looks like I need to watch this
> 
> Is that the same documentary that you watched, DotCommunist ?


It is m8


----------



## Teaboy (May 12, 2016)

A couple of interesting articles in this week's Private Eye about John Beggs QC the Police's go to barrister.   A couple of choice extracts:



> Beggs - self proclaimed "excellent" and "impressive" advocate - was the attack dog for the many legal teams representing SYP past and present. Thus it was that survivors at Hillsborough were repeatedly questioned about being "in drink". Steve Kelly, who lost his brother, told the EYE: "I was there every day, and Beggs used alcohol to deflect the blame, my brother had no alcohol in him. The survivors hadn't spoken for 27 years, they were traumatised, and he went for them"





> As one of the lawyers for the families said "Beggs, sometimes appeared to be deliberately 'goading' families in the public gallery, trying to provoke a reaction. It was all about using the lowest form of criminal bar tricks to try and prejudice the jury and deflect attention from police failures."


----------



## Orang Utan (May 12, 2016)

Couldn't believe that insensitive joke that Lord Justice Stewart-Smith made about Liverpool fans turning up at the last minute at the investigation that Jack Straw launched. He should have been immediately replaced for that.


----------



## DotCommunist (May 12, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> I had to watch that in two sittings. such staggering contempt from the authorities for the victims.


the fried chicken bit. for fucks sake. Had not read about that before. Just another example of this:


Orang Utan said:


> Couldn't believe that insensitive joke that Lord Justice Stewart-Smith made about Liverpool fans turning up at the last minute at the investigation that Jack Straw launched. He should have been immediately replaced for that.


this. The contempt.


----------



## Sprocket. (May 12, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> Couldn't believe that insensitive joke that Lord Justice Stewart-Smith made about Liverpool fans turning up at the last minute at the investigation that Jack Straw launched. He should have been immediately replaced for that.



That remark for me summed up all the contempt and disrespect the families had faced since the evening of the 15th April 89.
The callous throwaway utterance should as you say, seen him dismissed immediately.
I hope he lays awake at night gnashing his teeth in a sleepless rage following the triumph of justice for the 96 and the families.
Utter scum.


----------



## Orang Utan (May 12, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> the fried chicken bit. for fucks sake. Had not read about that before. Just another example of this:
> 
> this. The contempt.


Can't recall the fried chicken bit?


----------



## DotCommunist (May 12, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> Can't recall the fried chicken bit?


Inquests told of family's distress as police ate fried chicken in temp mortuary


----------



## DotCommunist (May 12, 2016)

its a smaller point among them all but its one that charecterises the sheer fuck-you of it all


----------



## Louis MacNeice (May 12, 2016)

Strangely enough the ex-Lord Justice of Appeal, the Rt Hon Sir Murray Stuart-Smith, doesn't include his particular bigoted contribution to the injustices of Hillsborough in his Debretts entry....but it is nice to know that he likes 'playing cello, shooting, building, playing bridge'.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## butchersapron (May 12, 2016)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Strangely enough the ex-Lord Justice of Appeal, the Rt Hon Sir Murray Stuart-Smith, doesn't include his particular bigoted contribution to the injustices of Hillsborough in his Debretts entry....but it is nice to know that he likes 'playing cello, shooting, building, playing bridge'.
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice


...and helping his son to become a high court judge in turn.


----------



## Sprocket. (May 12, 2016)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Strangely enough the ex-Lord Justice of Appeal, the Rt Hon Sir Murray Stuart-Smith, doesn't include his particular bigoted contribution to the injustices of Hillsborough in his Debretts entry....but it is nice to know that he likes 'playing cello, shooting, building, playing bridge'.
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice



I wouldn't think it out of character if it included: 
Torching orphanages.
Kicking homeless people.


----------



## butchersapron (May 12, 2016)

Oh great, the _IPCC

Police watchdog to investigate Hillsborough inquest spin claims_

The Independent Police Complaints Commission has launched an investigation into allegations that South Yorkshire police tried to influence daily media coverage of the Hillsborough inquests and spin what the force considered to be evidence favourable to it.

Hayley Court, a communications specialist hired by South Yorkshire police in 2014 specifically to work on the inquests, told the Guardian last week that she believed she had been given “unethical” instructions to spin coverage for the force.

Court said that on her first day she was told by a superior officer: “Your job is to round up the media at the end of the day and tell them: ‘This is the line’.”

Court said the line considered favourable by the force included evidence that spread blame away from its own failings, including allegations of misbehaviour against Liverpool supporters

...
In August 2014 Court complained internally, but she said that in response, rather than discuss or revise the approach to the inquests, her superior officer made complaints about her and she fell ill with depression and was signed off work.


----------



## Buckaroo (May 12, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Oh great, the _IPCC
> 
> Police watchdog to investigate Hillsborough inquest spin claims_
> 
> ...



Lie down with dogs etc


----------



## Sprocket. (May 17, 2016)

Dismissal proceedings start for South Yorkshire Police chief after Hillsborough - BBC News

Long overdue in my opinion.


----------



## spartacus mills (May 18, 2016)

The BBC 'doorstepped' Duckenfield at San Francisco airport today. The fucker looked like he hadn't a care in the world. 
Wasn't he 'on holiday' in Portugal on the day the inquest verdict?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jun 14, 2016)

South Yorkshire Police spend £2.1m on chief's Hillsborough costs - BBC News


----------



## teqniq (Jun 14, 2016)

So that's essentially £2.1m of public money. Great.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 19, 2016)

Meant to post this earlier in the week:

Hillsborough - The Truth: the cowardly threat made against Prof Phil Scraton and his family



> I remembered a more sinister call to my ex-directory number. This was a quite different, well-spoken male voice, which calmly and accurately listed the projects I had researched, ending with the comment “apologist for football hooligans”. Without pausing he named my children, their schools and what time they left home in the morning. Before putting down the phone he told me none of us were safe.



Note where he has chosen to place this in the book and who/what he is discussing immediately before.


----------



## teqniq (Aug 27, 2016)

Freemason link to Hillsborough cover-up investigated by police watchdog


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 30, 2016)

South Yorkshire Police chief David Crompton in legal bid over resignation



> The Chief Constable of South Yorkshire Police will take legal action over the decision to ask him to resign.
> 
> David Crompton was suspended by Dr Alan Billings, the region's Police and Crime Commissioner (PCC), after the Hillsborough inquest verdicts in April.
> He said Mr Crompton had led a force that put "its own reputation first before considering victims".
> ...





> After the inquests, Mr Crompton appeared to justify the questioning of the fans' conduct.





> It was reported Mr Crompton said "he would not consider this as he had nothing to resign for".


----------



## Teaboy (Oct 5, 2016)

So Bettison is writing a book about how ultimately he was the real victim in all this.  Don't worry though, all proceeds are going to charity.  Yeah, right.


----------



## chandlerp (Oct 5, 2016)

Is the charity for blind police officers?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 6, 2016)

chandlerp said:


> Is the charity for blind police officers?



For coppers with Repetitive Strain Injury.
All that clubbing people and chucking them down stairs wreaks havoc on your joints, you know!


----------



## William of Walworth (Oct 7, 2016)

Not sure how relevant this really is to this thread, but some interesting Guardian coverage here on ideas for a safe standing area at Anfield. To be fair to LSU/Spirit of Shankly, they seem to want to make sure that Hillsborough campaign groups are properly (?) consulted and that they have their wishes/views respected. Or am I missing anything?


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 31, 2016)

‘Police lawyers blaming fans delayed Hillsborough inquests by a year’



> The Hillsborough inquests took twice as long as they should have because of the way barristers representing match commander David Duckenfield and South Yorkshire Police’s legal team behaved, lawyers for the victims’ families have suggested.
> 
> Speaking at a public lecture at the University of Sheffield, Mark George QC said South Yorkshire Police’s legal representatives had ‘piggybacked on aggressive questioning’ on behalf of the match commanders including Mr Duckenfield that had relied on repeating discredited claims that the fans had responsibility for the disaster occurring.



I do hope_ Duty of Candour_ is changed for something better - even though it's already an established thing.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 11, 2016)

Football chief under fire for ‘smear’ on Hillsborough supporters



> In his statement, Richards said that they also attended to a woman who died and that some Liverpool supporters made an obscene remark about her. “There were some lads behind the perimeter fence who shouted to us to throw her to them,” his statement said. “They made comments like: ‘Throw her in here, we’ll fucking fix her up.’ There were 10 or 12 of them. I was shocked by this and stood there.”





> Analysis of his statement has now revealed discrepancies in the detail with known facts about the disaster. Rigby himself did not say he had attended to any women on the pitch, but Richards gave a detailed description – that the woman was aged between 27 and 30, wearing a short-sleeved blouse and a multicoloured skirt, and that Rigby had told him she was dead.
> 
> Seven female victims were among the 96 people who died at Hillsborough and none was wearing a skirt. All were wearing jeans or trousers.



Note, even the referee is claiming that the police changed his written statement. Not SYP but the WM brought in to _clear it all up._


----------



## DaveCinzano (Dec 11, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> For coppers with Repetitive Strain Injury.
> All that clubbing people and chucking them down stairs wreaks havoc on your joints, you know!


That and rewriting the same fabricated statement over and over and over again


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 12, 2016)

So that's 10-40 tonight. ITV.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 12, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Football chief under fire for ‘smear’ on Hillsborough supporters
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh yeah, pre "post-truth"/"fake" news.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 12, 2016)

It never ends. You think you've reached the bottom, but you never have.


----------



## Nivag (Dec 13, 2016)

One of my friends was on last nights programme and having heard his account first hand, the relief felt from him that some of the lies are now coming out was amazing. 
Still more to come from this too.


----------



## Voley (Dec 14, 2016)

Only watched half of this latest programme so far as it was getting to me a bit. I don't know why I'm still surprised by all this stuff tbh. You'd think you'd become inured to it at some point. God it's vile.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 14, 2016)

Voley said:


> Only watched half of this latest programme so far as it was getting to me a bit. I don't know why I'm still surprised by all this stuff tbh. You'd think you'd become inured to it at some point. God it's vile.




It's just so fucking much though, corruption from top to bottom. And they're still at it, holding back on Orgreave papers, refusing to release all the Guildford Four papers etc.

FFS where there's blates bullshit, get it out on the open, deal with it and every one (who's still alive) can move on.


----------



## tommers (Jan 12, 2017)

Details of 23 passed to CPS

Hillsborough suspect files passed to Crown Prosecution Service - BBC News


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 13, 2017)

Friday  night buried release:

No police officers can be disciplined over Hillsborough complaints, says IPCC



> None of the former police officers under investigation for more than 170 allegations of misconduct relating to the 1989 Hillsborough disaster will face disciplinary proceedings because all have retired, the Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC) has said.



So short of criminal charges - and we've seen the tiny figures passed to the CPS -  they're all off the hook.

The dragging it out, the extended pain and anguish of the families, these are the victories of these officers.


----------



## dessiato (Jan 13, 2017)

The police share so much shame over their behaviour across so many of their actions. I, therefore, think they'll be so busy burying their heads and hiding from the truth that they will never admit to anything.


----------



## Athos (Jan 13, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> The dragging it out, the extended pain and anguish of the families , these are the victories of these officers.




Yes, it seems doubly cruel that the very thing that compounded the families' pain - the slow playing - is what should have enabled so many to escape justice altogether.


----------



## friedaweed (Jan 13, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> Friday  night buried release:
> 
> No police officers can be disciplined over Hillsborough complaints, says IPCC
> 
> ...




Protected to the end


----------



## friedaweed (Jan 13, 2017)

Athos said:


> Yes, it seems doubly cruel that the very thing that compounded the families' pain - the slow playing - is what should have enabled so many to escape justice altogether.


Soz mate. Quoted you by mistake then.


----------



## Nivag (Jan 13, 2017)

They should be charged with perverting the course of justice, which shouldn't matter if they have retired or not. Absolute scum.


----------



## Athos (Jan 13, 2017)

Nivag said:


> They should be charged with perverting the course of justice, which shouldn't matter if they have retired or not. Absolute scum.


That's a criminal offence; retirement is no bar to criminal proceedings, only misconduct proceedings (because the ultimate sanction is dismissal, which is otiose).


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 13, 2017)

Which would be on the immediate table for those whose names have been passed to CPS i think (depending on where perjury may be committed of course). The state has just told this lot it's over though - they won't be pursued.


----------



## Athos (Jan 13, 2017)

Perverting, perjury, misconduct in public office, and/or conspiracy, at a guess.


----------



## Athos (Jan 13, 2017)

Interestingly, the IPCC intends to report on whether it would have found misconduct, but for the officers' retirement. I wonder whether any new evidence they uncover that leads to that conclusion could form the basis of a limitation-defeating civil claim.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 13, 2017)

I think that may be the state/polices end game. Offer enough grounds for civil stuff - prod people into it . Which looks like proper stuff.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 10, 2017)

Liverpool Football Club ban Sun journalists over Hillsborough coverage

A good start; let's hope that fans' campaigns can spread and extend the ban to other clubs.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 2, 2017)

Never ending:

Hillsborough families to crowdfund to pay police chief's costs



> A crowdfunding appeal has been set up for five people whose relatives died in the 1989 Hillsborough disaster, after a judge ordered them to pay the £28,000 legal costs of former South Yorkshire police chief constable David Crompton.
> 
> Lady Justice Sharp made the costs order after refusing an application by the five family members to be formally involved in Crompton’s appeal against his dismissal by the South Yorkshire police and crime commissioner Alan Billings, last year.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 2, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> Never ending:
> 
> Hillsborough families to crowdfund to pay police chief's costs


Jesus.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 2, 2017)

The crowdfunding thing


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 3, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> Never ending:
> 
> Hillsborough families to crowdfund to pay police chief's costs





butchersapron said:


> The crowdfunding thing



Bump as this was posted last night and could be easily be missed.


----------



## newbie (Mar 9, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> The crowdfunding thing


bump


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 15, 2017)

Police investigate racial hate complaint over Kelvin MacKenzie Sun column on Ross Barkley

can go here. what a piece of shit he is


----------



## Voley (Apr 15, 2017)

28 years ago today. YNWA.


----------



## Beetlebum (Apr 15, 2017)

(At the risk of being contraversial )

At what point do we move on from this?

Obviously not for the families concerned,  but everyone else I mean. 

It's getting nigh on thirty years now.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 15, 2017)

Beetlebum said:


> (At the risk of being contraversial )
> 
> At what point do we move on from this?
> 
> ...


 When the families decide. They are the '''we' here. That doesn't look like it includes you.

Alternatively, when the legal processes are finished in fair manner.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 15, 2017)

DotCommunist said:


> Police investigate racial hate complaint over Kelvin MacKenzie Sun column on Ross Barkley
> 
> can go here. what a piece of shit he is


Given he simply wanted to ruin today i reckon not talking about him would be the way to go.


----------



## B.I.G (Apr 15, 2017)

Beetlebum said:


> (At the risk of being contraversial )
> 
> At what point do we move on from this?
> 
> ...



The football community will never forget. 96 people went to a football match and never came back. 

We haven't forgotten players from longer than 30 years ago so why would we forget fellow fans.


----------



## Beetlebum (Apr 15, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> When the families decide. They are the '''we' here. That doesn't look like it includes you.


No it doesn't.  


B.I.G said:


> The football community will never forget. 96 people went to a football match and never came back.
> 
> We haven't forgotten players from longer than 30 years ago so why would we forget fellow fans.



Fair point. I realise this is still a sensitive subject for very good reasons.

But there will and must come a point for moving on. Hopefully we can get everything wrapped up for the 30th anniversary.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 15, 2017)

Beetlebum said:


> No it doesn't.
> 
> 
> Fair point. I realise this is still a sensitive subject for very good reasons.
> ...


Stop saying 'we'. You know exactly what you're doing here and you know exactly why you doing it. Please stop.


----------



## Beetlebum (Apr 15, 2017)

Hopefully everything can be wrapped up for the 30th anniversary.  

Better?


----------



## 1927 (Apr 15, 2017)

B.I.G said:


> The football community will never forget. 96 people went to a football match and never came back.
> 
> We haven't forgotten players from longer than 30 years ago so why would we forget fellow fans.


The victims of Bradford have been pretty much forgotten!


----------



## B.I.G (Apr 15, 2017)

1927 said:


> The victims of Bradford have been pretty much forgotten!



They have not. How else would I know what you are talking about.


----------



## Beetlebum (Apr 15, 2017)

1927 said:


> The victims of Bradford have been pretty much forgotten!



Yes, and beyond football you could say the same about the victims on the Herald of Free Enterprise or  the Marchioness.


----------



## 1927 (Apr 15, 2017)

B.I.G said:


> They have not. How else would I know what you are talking about.


I must have missed the annual outpouring of grief for them for the past 30 years!


----------



## B.I.G (Apr 15, 2017)

1927 said:


> I must have missed the annual outpouring of grief for them for the past 30 years!



People really are disgraceful. You are saying the loss of their loved ones isn't felt by those who lost people in the Bradford fire.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 15, 2017)

1927 said:


> I must have missed the annual outpouring of grief for them for the past 30 years!


The bradford tragedy is remembered every year. Maybe not by you, i don't know. But it's not been part of a such a  wide and deep elite level conspiracy to hide the truth and malign the victims as Hillsborough which means the latter is more in the headlines. I hope there has been some investigation into the claims the chairman set the fire - have you been on the case demanding an inquest into that with the families?

Good day to do this btw. Rather than the 11th may you instead use it to undermine those remembering what happened on april 15th. 

Nice one.


----------



## JTG (Apr 15, 2017)

1927 said:


> I must have missed the annual outpouring of grief for them for the past 30 years!


You must have done, yeah


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Apr 15, 2017)

Beetlebum said:


> Hopefully everything can be wrapped up for the 30th anniversary.
> 
> Better?



Wrapped up in what way?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 15, 2017)

Beetlebum said:


> Hopefully everything can be wrapped up for the 30th anniversary.
> 
> Better?


No. It still implies that the emotional and legal ties that this tragedy and the subsequent cover up produced are yours to police and it ignores the fact that the main plank of the ongoing cover-up is to drag the legal element out as long as possible to so that a) the culpable might die without punishment and b) the victims and their families give up their fight for justice.


----------



## Beetlebum (Apr 15, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> No. It still implies that the emotional and legal ties that this tragedy and the subsequent cover up produced are yours to police and it ignores the fact that the main ongoing plank of the cover-up is to drag the legal element out as long as possible to so that a) the culpable might die without punishment and b) the victims and their families give up their fight for justice.



OK third and final attempt. 

My personal opinion is that it would be better all round if this was concluded in the next couple of years,  ie in time for the 30th anniversary.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 15, 2017)

Beetlebum said:


> (At the risk of being contraversial )
> 
> At what point do we move on from this?
> 
> ...



If you don't care to remember what an earth are you doing on this thread?

I am not even a football fan and I will never forget what I saw on TV and in the papers at the time. Add to that the disgusting, dishonorable way that the media and establishment treated the memory of those who died and their grieving families.

Most importantly, I will never forget just how deep those families and the city of Liverpool have dug to fight back and get justice. They are an example to us all.


----------



## chandlerp (Apr 15, 2017)

Better for who?


----------



## Red Cat (Apr 15, 2017)

1927 said:


> The victims of Bradford have been pretty much forgotten!



If you post on this thread again with this kind of shit, I'll report it. This is anti-Liverpool prejudice, don't think I don't recognise it when I see it.


----------



## Red Cat (Apr 15, 2017)

Beetlebum said:


> No it doesn't.
> 
> 
> Fair point. I realise this is still a sensitive subject for very good reasons.
> ...



This is anti-Liverpool prejudice too. It has no place here or anywhere else on the boards. Wrap it up.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 15, 2017)

Phil Scraton   on Hillsborough 28 Years On: Phil Scraton on Owning The Truth Of April 15, 1989. Ignore the subscribe bit and scroll down to the bit that says 'direct'.



> *Professor Phil Scraton, campaigner and author of Hillsborough: The Truth, speaks to Gareth Roberts about the long fight for truth and justice, from the days when it became clear a cover-up was in process just days after the disaster to the elation of the verdict at the inquests last year.*
> 
> In between was a long and arduous battle for information, for recognition and for the powers that be to recognise what was right and wrong. Phil has been at the centre of it all, alongside the families and the survivors, from 1989 through to 2017, and here he speaks candidly about the highs and lows of those 28 years.


----------



## Favelado (Apr 15, 2017)

This "move on" thing has been around LFC boards for over 15 years. It's always someone pretending to have good intentions dressing up their trolling. Lucky no-one has ever listened to it or we'd still be believing the official version of events. Why don't the critics move on? They are consistently wrong. You need a new mantra, not Hillsborough campaign supporters.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 15, 2017)

_Move on  _ - don't talk back to power, don't question what you're told.  _Move on - _leave lies standing, leave corruption unchallenged. _Move on._


----------



## Favelado (Apr 15, 2017)

Understood.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 15, 2017)

1927 said:


> The victims of Bradford have been pretty much forgotten!



Not by me, or by anyone else who saw the broadcast or was at the match.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 15, 2017)

Beetlebum said:


> OK third and final attempt.
> 
> My personal opinion is that it would be better all round if this was concluded in the next couple of years,  ie in time for the 30th anniversary.



*My* personal opinion is that we should never forget that effectively the 96 were unlawfully killed through the actions and inaction of senior police officers, and that remembering that the police are capable of doing this, and culpable for it, is more important than giving you an easy time through not being reminded about Hillsborough.


----------



## Beetlebum (Apr 15, 2017)

Define culpable.

This was clearly police incompetance of the highest order combined with dreadful outdated stadium design but you seem to be implying it is something more.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 15, 2017)

Beetlebum said:


> *Define culpable*.
> 
> This was clearly *police incompetance of the highest order* combined with dreadful outdated stadium design but you seem to be implying it is something more.



You've done that yourself; the actions/inactions of the police that directly contributed to the death of those 96 fans; culpability.


----------



## Zapp Brannigan (Apr 15, 2017)

Protecting the reputations of senior police was more important than giving closure to the families and friends of 96 dead human beings, and it didn't make a bit of difference that an entire city was thrown under a bus to do it.

That's what the police can do, and have done. Fuck your feelings.


----------



## Beetlebum (Apr 15, 2017)

brogdale said:


> You've do that yourself; the actions/inactions of the police that directly contributed to the death of those 96 fans; culpability.


Contributed, yes. Those who blame this soley on the police are arguably as bad as those who blame the Liverpool fans on the day. You need to look at the stadium design and a whole load of other factors including the behaviour of some football fans  in the late seventies early eighties  to get at the root causes


----------



## Red Cat (Apr 15, 2017)

Can we all agree to ignore this provocation?


----------



## brogdale (Apr 15, 2017)

Beetlebum said:


> Contributed, yes. Those who blame this soley on the police are arguably as bad as those who blame the Liverpool fans on the day. You need to look at the stadium design and a whole load of other factors including the behaviour of football fans in general in the late seventies early eighties  to get at the root causes


Yes, the police were culpable.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 15, 2017)

Red Cat said:


> Can we all agree to ignore this provocation?





Beetlebum said:


> Contributed, yes. Those who blame this soley on the police are arguably as bad as those who blame the Liverpool fans on the day. You need to look at the stadium design and a whole load of other factors including the behaviour of football fans in general in the late seventies early eighties  to get at the root causes


None of the various inquiries found fan behaviour to be culpable in any way. I'm now taking red cat's suggestion given that this is just a calmly stated 'always victims' approach.


----------



## Red Cat (Apr 15, 2017)

Can we all agree to ignore? The evidence is out there, there is no need to go over and over. Someone who chooses not to believe does so for reasons that has nothing to do with evidence.


----------



## Red Cat (Apr 15, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> Phil Scraton   on Hillsborough 28 Years On: Phil Scraton on Owning The Truth Of April 15, 1989. Ignore the subscribe bit and scroll down to the bit that says 'direct'.



I'm listening to this now, its really interesting.


----------



## Beetlebum (Apr 15, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> None of the various inquiries found fan behaviour to be culpable in any way. I'm now taking red cat's suggestion given that this is just a calmly stated 'always victims' approach.


I'm not talking about fan behaviour on the day. I'm talking about the behaviour problem in general from the mid 70s on. I've edited my post to reflect the fact this was a minority but those railings were there because of previous issues. They might have been the wrong response to the problem,  of course they were, but  hindsight is always 20 20.


----------



## B.I.G (Apr 15, 2017)

Beetlebum said:


> I'm not talking about fan behaviour on the day. I'm talking about the behaviour problem in general from the mid 70s on. I've edited my post to reflect the fact this was a minority but those railings were there because of previous issues. They might have been the wrong response to the problem,  of course they were, but  hindsight is always 20 20.



What about the behaviour of any race, religion, or class contributing to their treatment?!?!? They are bringing it on themselves obv.


----------



## agricola (Apr 15, 2017)

Beetlebum said:


> I'm not talking about fan behaviour on the day. I'm talking about the behaviour problem in general from the mid 70s on. I've edited my post to reflect the fact this was a minority but those railings were there because of previous issues. They might have been the wrong response to the problem,  of course they were, but  hindsight is always 20 20.



You do give yourself away a bit by still talking about fan behaviour generally.  If you want to extend the responsibility for what happened beyond South Yorkshire Police, I would have thought the FA would be a much more sensible place to start than fans.


----------



## Beetlebum (Apr 15, 2017)

Well whatever your view Everton have just joined Liverpool in banning the Sun.

Everton ban the Sun after Ross Barkley article


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 15, 2017)

Better late than never.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 15, 2017)

Great stuff. Glad they held that back till today - though i bet it was tempting to do it last night.


----------



## agricola (Apr 15, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> Great stuff. Glad they held that back till today - though i bet it was tempting to do it last night.



The bad thing about the delay is that it means Anderson has been able to appear as if he has demanded and won this act.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 15, 2017)

agricola said:


> The bad thing about the delay is that it means Anderson has been able to appear as if he has demanded and won this act.


Oh yeah - that's true.

Given Everton's massive social investment - miles ahead of other clubs - i'm surprised it's taken this long.


----------



## agricola (Apr 15, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> Oh yeah - that's true.
> 
> Given Everton's massive social investment - miles ahead of other clubs - i'm surprised it's taken this long.



I would not be surprised if they had warned the paper that unless there was a meaningful and genuine apology, accompanied by MacKenzie's sacking, by a set point last night that this would be the outcome of it.  Obviously none of that was forthcoming and so they have been booted out.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Apr 15, 2017)

Surely it is time every club booted the Scum out, they are wholly anti-football, so why allow them anywhere near a match?


----------



## brogdale (Apr 15, 2017)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Surely it is time every club booted the Scum out, they are wholly anti-football, so why allow them anywhere near a match?


Sky £.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Apr 15, 2017)

brogdale said:


> Sky £.



Not sure if Murdoch would pull Sky out for the sun tho, Sky needs football as much as football needs Sky, don't it?


----------



## 1927 (Apr 15, 2017)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Not sure if Murdoch would pull Sky out for the sun tho, Sky needs football as much as football needs Sky, don't it?


Sky needs football MORE than football needs Sky!


----------



## Beetlebum (Apr 15, 2017)

brogdale said:


> Sky £.


Yes. Ultimately booting the Sun out while continuing to take the multi millions from Sky is nothing more than tokenism. 

And before you ask I think the Sun article in the wake of Hillsborough was vile.


----------



## Beetlebum (Apr 15, 2017)

1927 said:


> Sky needs football MORE than football needs Sky!


Slightly off topic but yes,  football could certainly survive without Sky. What I think it would struggle to do is survive in its current form without subscription telly from someone.   

Everytime the Premier League  rights come up for renewal there are rumours of billions from China or the Middle East to bankroll an attempt to outbid Sky.

So far they have failed to materialise.  Maybe next time.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 15, 2017)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Not sure if Murdoch would pull Sky out for the sun tho, Sky needs football as much as football needs Sky, don't it?


Quite possibly, but remember we're looking at corporations contractually bound in the production of a product. Their owners are unlikely to relish undertaking any gestures that might destabilise their profit stream, and remember the further down the Prem, the greater the reliance on revenue from broadcast rights.


----------



## JTG (Apr 15, 2017)

No, Sky is not going to take a bullet for the Sun. Don't be ridiculous


----------



## JTG (Apr 15, 2017)

"Sky TV today announced it is not going to bid against BT Sport for live rights because the Sun had been banned from AFC Bournemouth"

No


----------



## 1927 (Apr 15, 2017)

brogdale said:


> Quite possibly, but remember we're looking at corporations contractually bound in the production of a product. Their owners are unlikely to relish undertaking any gestures that might destabilise their profit stream, and remember the further down the Prem, the greater the reliance on revenue from broadcast rights.


revenue from broadcast rights will still be there.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 15, 2017)

None of which contradicts the fact that the corporation of the Prem (& its corporate club 'Shareholders') might seek to maintain relations with media owned by the founder/owner of 21st C Fox.


----------



## Voley (Apr 15, 2017)

Personally, I'll 'move on' when the guilty are doing some time. That's just me though. 

How the families do so is entirely up to them, if indeed they ever can or want to. If I'd lost both of my daughters I doubt I ever would tbh. I hope the families will be able to move on one day. In their own way, at their own time, however they want to do so.

YNWA.


----------



## chandlerp (Apr 15, 2017)

It actually isn't that long ago since The Sun was banned by Liverpool.  Klopp insisted on it.


----------



## JTG (Apr 15, 2017)

Beetlebum said:


> Yes. Ultimately booting the Sun out while continuing to take the multi millions from Sky is nothing more than tokenism.


Well it's not because the reason for banning the Sun is very specifically because it has been abusive to Ross Barkley, his heritage and the city of Liverpool. To the best of my knowledge that isn't the case with Sky. They haven't banned the Times either.


----------



## 8den (Apr 15, 2017)

I'm quite tickled to see that the Liverpool Echo house style is to always refer to "The Sun" as "The S*n". 

Everton ban The S*n from all club premises


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 16, 2017)

Beetlebum said:


> Define culpable.
> 
> This was clearly police incompetance of the highest order combined with dreadful outdated stadium design but you seem to be implying it is something more.



Look up the word in the dictionary. It's about to whom the blame accrues, not about whether the fault was deliberate or accidental.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 16, 2017)

Zapp Brannigan said:


> Protecting the reputations of senior police was more important than giving closure to the families and friends of 96 dead human beings, and it didn't make a bit of difference that an entire city was thrown under a bus to do it.
> 
> That's what the police can do, and have done. Fuck your feelings.



And let's be utterly blunt about this, it was protecting the reputations of senior police, many of whom already had black marks against them from HMIC for poor fulfillment of their supervisory roles.  These men weren't for the most part the _creme de la creme_, they were the scum that also rises.


----------



## JTG (Apr 21, 2017)

Chester FC have made a statement in support of Liverpool & Everton's stance saying that while they're fortunate in not having any dealings with the S*n, they will take the bans into consideration in the future


----------



## belboid (Apr 21, 2017)

JTG said:


> Chester FC have made a statement in support of Liverpool & Everton's stance saying that while they're fortunate in not having any dealings with the S*n, they will take the bans into consideration in the future


there  was a report from Tranmere this morning saying we have enacted a 'de facto' ban on them for the last two years. We then clarified 'de facto' as meaning 'they don't cover non-league football'


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Apr 21, 2017)




----------



## DaveCinzano (May 12, 2017)

The IPCC has flagged up an update today:

Hillsborough update - May 2017 | Independent Police Complaints Commission

*Hillsborough update - May 2017*​
Posted 12 May 2017 - 10:30am by Rachel Cerfontyne
This is the latest update on the Independent Police Complaints Commission’s (IPCC) Hillsborough investigation.

Latest news from Operation Resolve can be found here.

Since formally referring evidence files to the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS)(link is external) in January this year and concluding the majority of criminal enquiries, we have been focussed on examining over 170 allegations of misconduct. These include complaints from Hillsborough family members and survivors of the disaster, and matters that have been identified during the course of the inquiry.

Investigative work on the complaints about police actions in the aftermath of the disaster is almost complete. We are now at a stage where the evidence gathered is being considered. These findings will be set out in individual investigation reports, which will form part of a more extensive final report containing comprehensive findings from both our independent and managed investigations. We expect these to be published after any potential criminal proceedings have concluded.

The CPS has informed us that it will make charging decisions on the West Midlands Police (WMP) aspect of the IPCC investigationseparately to the South Yorkshire Police (SYP) strand. It has identified additional investigative work that needs to be completed on the WMP file before fully informed decisions can be made. While the CPS has worked with the IPCC throughout the investigation, providing early advice on various aspects, the first opportunity it had to examine the entire evidence file was when we formally referred it in January. This contained material the CPS had not previously seen. The additional work is well advanced and we expect to finish and submit this by the end of May.

It is important to note that the CPS intends to deliver all charging decisions on the SYP evidence file within its original six-month timeframe.

We informed families last month that we had passed a Hillsborough-related allegation about a retired SYP officer who was on duty at the 1989 FA Cup semi-final to Durham Constabulary. The force has since informed us that its enquiries are now on hold and will resume after the main CPS (link is external)charging decisions have been made.

The disclosure team is making good progress and remains on track to provide material to the CPS(link is external) within agreed deadlines. This process is being undertaken in line with legislation ahead of decisions on any potential prosecutions.​


----------



## chandlerp (May 12, 2017)

still referring to "potential" prosecutions so no certainty at all.


----------



## Teaboy (May 12, 2017)

chandlerp said:


> still referring to "potential" prosecutions so no certainty at all.



It's up to the CPS.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 24, 2017)

CPS to announce Hillsborough charging decisions next week


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 28, 2017)

6 charged - including Bettison and Duckenfield. 5 SYP or ex SYP.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 28, 2017)




----------



## Artaxerxes (Jun 28, 2017)

About fucking time.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 28, 2017)

Note total lack of west mids charges when they were firmly in the centre of the cover-up.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 28, 2017)

butchersapron said:


>




YES!

Some hefty prison time is available for such heinous criminality.




butchersapron said:


> Note total lack of west mids charges when they were firmly in the centre of the cover-up.



Perhaps once this first lot are doing their porridge West Midlands can be looked at?


----------



## skyscraper101 (Jun 28, 2017)

West Mids is a seperate decision...

Hillsborough Disaster: Inquiries continue over West Midlands Police role in 'cover-up'



> Rachel Cerfontyne, deputy chairwoman of the Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC), said: "The CPS has informed us that it will make charging decisions on the West Midlands Police (WMP) aspect of the IPCC investigation separately to the South Yorkshire Police (SYP) strand.
> 
> "It has identified additional investigative work that needs to be completed on the WMP file before fully informed decisions can be made.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 28, 2017)

For those looked at and not charged:


----------



## Wilf (Jun 28, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> Note total lack of west mids charges when they were firmly in the centre of the cover-up.


I think they are to be announced later?  Sorry, couldn't find a link other than the Daily Mail on that.
edit - beaten to it.


----------



## Wilf (Jun 28, 2017)

I note that the cps announcer refers to bettison as 'norman bettison' not 'sir norman bettison' (0:52).  A very small point in the bigger picture, but a nice little further step in his transition to the dock (give or take an ernest saunders style onset of strategic reversible dementia).


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 28, 2017)

Really really important:

Hillsborough charges: Do not give suspects chance to claim they can't have a fair trial


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jun 28, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> Note total lack of west mids charges when they were firmly in the centre of the cover-up.



It's explained upthread that the CPS are considering the syp and wmp cases separately.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Jun 28, 2017)

Great news.


----------



## sojourner (Jun 28, 2017)




----------



## butchersapron (Jun 28, 2017)

Manslaughter sentencing. I suspect Duckenfield will be trying desperately to go the hospital order path. I think his performances in the newly held inquests and investigation may have been planned with exactly this in mind.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jun 28, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> Manslaughter sentencing. I suspect Duckenfield will be trying desperately to go the hospital order path. I think his performances in the newly held inquests and investigation may have been planned with exactly this in mind.



Maybe read the link in your own post #1772


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 28, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> Manslaughter sentencing. I suspect Duckenfield will be trying desperately to go the hospital order path. I think his performances in the newly held inquests and investigation may have been planned with exactly this in mind.



Dementia/Saundersitis?


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 28, 2017)

Yes - that said, he's charged with manslaughter by gross negligence so the above may not apply. I shall check. Seems to be accurate for all manslaughter.


----------



## Wilf (Jun 28, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> Dementia/Saundersitis?


#dementiadiagnosingneurologists4U


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 28, 2017)

janneritis


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 28, 2017)

At Duckenfields previous (totally mishandled and pathetic) trial for manslaughter in 2000 he claimed he was suffering from PTSD. He also sought to have the trial stopped because he claimed he could not recieve a fair hearing due to pre-trial publicity and media reporting. the judge also told him that even if he was found guilty that he wouldn't jail him.


----------



## Athos (Jun 28, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> Yes - that said, he's charged with manslaughter by gross negligence so the above may not apply. I shall check. Seems to be accurate for all manslaughter.



I seem to recall that a hospital order is for someone who was guilty of manslaughter (which would otherwise have been murder) by diminished responsibility i.e. they were mad at the time of the offence, not now. I'll check.


----------



## Athos (Jun 28, 2017)

Ignore that. A hospital order is possible if someone is suffering serious metal health issue at the time of sentencing. But PTSD is unlikely to meet the threshold unless it's cripplingly bad.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 28, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> the judge also told him that even if he was found guilty that he wouldn't jail him.



fuck sakes, this shit is truly relentless.


----------



## Voley (Jun 28, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> Really really important:
> 
> Hillsborough charges: Do not give suspects chance to claim they can't have a fair trial


 Was just about to post something similar after Mark Thomas retweeted this:


----------



## friedaweed (Jun 28, 2017)

Worth the wait.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Jun 29, 2017)

28 long years - respect to those who wouldn't give up fighting for justice - anger at the conspiracy of cunts that stood in their way.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 29, 2017)

Here's hoping that if Fuckenfield gets remanded in custody, he gets placed somewhere with lots of Liverpool fans.


----------



## LiamO (Jun 29, 2017)

I never thought I would see this (bittersweet) day. I was a bit overwhelmed at my own instant welling of tears when it flashed up yesterday. Fuck knows how it felt for the families and those who have fought alongside them for so long.

Could have been any ground, any set of fans, any given day given the contempt instruments of the State had for young working class people (and particularly football fans) throughout Thatcher's years.

A cynic might be inclined to think a) they will lump Orgreave in with this - get it all done in one go and b) they are keen to get it all off the table before Corbyn gets elected.


----------



## friedaweed (Jun 29, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> Here's hoping that if Fuckenfield gets remanded in custody, he gets placed somewhere with lots of Liverpool fans.


That's if the lying twat actually makes it to court. Wouldn't be surprised if he goes away in the night by his own hand TBH. Must be a bit of a lonely place now for him. He'll hide behind ill health for as long as he can in an effort to further deny the families justice.

Bettison will have the arrogance to fight it and I think he could be the slipperiest cunt to nail of all of them. Who knows.

Metcalf and Denton's perverting the course of justice/alteration of statements campaign should be easy enough to prove.

Bit on Metcalf here after the panels report was published.



> Metcalf, when contacted by _The Lawyer_, said he had not read yesterday’s 389-page report. *He said he had not instructed a lawyer on his behalf and questioned why he would need one.*


Former Hammonds partner implicated in Hillsborough cover-up - The Lawyer | Legal News and Jobs | Advancing the business of law

You'll clearly be needing one now you cunt.

We're a long way off yet.


----------



## nastybobby (Jun 29, 2017)

Fucking outrageous that Tony Bland isn't included in the prosecution. He was killed because of what happened that day and deserves justice like the other victims.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 29, 2017)

They have said they are seeking to take steps to remove the legal impediment to including his death on the charge(s).



> We are unable to charge the manslaughter of Anthony Bland, the 96th casualty, as he died almost four years later. The law as it applied then provided that no person could be guilty of homicide where the death occurred more than a year and a day later than the date when the injuries were caused. In order to prosecute this matter, the CPS will need to successfully apply to remove the stay imposed by a senior judge (now retired) at the end of the 1999 private prosecution when David Duckenfield was prosecuted for two counts of manslaughter by gross negligence previously. We will be applying to a High Court Judge to lift the stay and order that the case can proceed on a voluntary bill of indictment.


----------



## newbie (Jun 29, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> They have said they are seeking to take steps to remove the legal impediment to including his death on the charge(s).


Are you sure?  I read that as separate sentences, the two relating to Tony Bland setting out the law at the time (which surely can't be retrospectively changed?). The other two relate to DD being charged.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 29, 2017)

Yes, i think that you're right.


----------



## friedaweed (Jun 29, 2017)

A very dignified response to it here from the family.



> In a statement, his family said: "Whilst we are hugely disappointed with the exclusion of Tony from the manslaughter charge against [match commander] David Duckenfield by the CPS, our relief for the families of the other 95 men, women and children outweigh our personal frustrations.
> 
> "Justice has been achieved following the inquests [in April 2016], when the jury returned the verdict of all 96 victims being unlawfully killed at Hillsborough, and nothing will ever change that.
> 
> "We will continue to support the other families on the journey for accountability."



Hillsborough: Tony Bland's family 'hugely disappointed' by no charges - BBC News

It is wrong and this wont be the last rule of law that these cunts will get to hide behind. They'll be clutching at every straw they can.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 9, 2017)

5 of the 6 in court today. I expect just a short thing and then a proper trial date sorted. Duckenfield still doesn't have to face any charges as the 'stay on prosecution' on him has not yet been lifted. So he isn't there. He has also applied for public funding for any defence if he ever does face charges. The other two ex-SYP have done the same.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 9, 2017)

All five pleaded (pled?) not guilty. Court date now set for sept 6th  at Preston before separate trials.


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 9, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> He has also applied for public funding for any defence


Given that the police federation have extensive funds precisely for this sort of thing, that's particularly outrageous


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 11, 2017)

Streathamite said:


> Given that the police federation have extensive funds precisely for this sort of thing, that's particularly outrageous


If you can't trust SY PolFed in a dogged quest for justice, who can you trust?

Remembering Hillsborough: The guilty have names and faces (i) Paul Middup


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 13, 2017)

DaveCinzano said:


> If you can't trust SY PolFed in a dogged quest for justice, who can you trust?
> 
> Remembering Hillsborough: The guilty have names and faces (i) Paul Middup


Thank you so much for putting that up there, and for that blog. Christ, I felt physically sick just listening to that scumbag Middup


----------



## teqniq (Dec 5, 2017)

Duckenfield to get funding to fight possible prosecution


----------



## dessiato (Dec 5, 2017)

teqniq said:


> Duckenfield to get funding to fight possible prosecution


My money is on him now being found innocent of any charge. It smacks, to me, and it is only my opinion, of the establishment preparing to cover up anything that they might possibly find.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 22, 2018)

More criminal charges possible over Hillsborough disaster deaths



> The Independent Office for Police Conduct - formerly the Independent Police Complaints Commission, which is investigating the alleged cover up in the aftermath of the 1989 disaster is to make an announcement in the next few weeks.
> 
> The team has been conducting an 'evidence review' relating to three former South Yorkshire Police officers who are suspects but have not been previously referred to the CPS.



Them on this.

Duckenfield verdict on removing the stay on his prosecution coming up next week.


----------



## dessiato (Feb 22, 2018)

Interesting times ahead


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 16, 2018)

Shirt withdrawn amid Hillsborough anger

I'm willing to give Top Shop the benefit of the doubt as I've met buyers from large chain shops and ime they are not the sort of person who would generally be up to date with this sort of thing.  Whomever designed it though, must have known.  Tactless shitbag.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 16, 2018)

Teaboy said:


> Shirt withdrawn amid Hillsborough anger
> 
> I'm willing to give Top Shop the benefit of the doubt as I've met buyers from large chain shops and ime they are not the sort of person who would generally be up to date with this sort of thing.  Whomever designed it though, must have known.  Tactless shitbag.


My initial thought was the designers can't have known - how could anybody produce a shirt like that knowingly, even at the level of self interest they must have known they'd have faced a shitstorm. The point I made on the general Liverpool thread was that somebody should have twigged it in the manufacturing process, at delivery, in the shop... But then when you look at the actual shirt it really does look like it was inspired by the original 96 t-shirt - same shade of red, same type face.  I end up thinking it really is a rip off the original shirt design, maybe with some bizarre level of ignorance about the story behind the original shirts. Utterly astonishing.


----------



## binka (Mar 16, 2018)

Wilf said:


> The point I made on the general Liverpool thread was that somebody should have twigged it in the manufacturing process, at delivery, in the shop...


Reminds me of when Umbro named some new trainers 'Zyklon'. You would have thought someone might have noticed the slight problem along the way
Umbro drops its Zyklon shoe after Jewish protests


----------



## Wilf (Mar 16, 2018)

binka said:


> Reminds me of when Umbro named some new trainers 'Zyklon'. You would have thought someone might have noticed the slight problem along the way
> Umbro drops its Zyklon shoe after Jewish protests


Both cases probably something about corporate Britain too.  All the people delivering the shirts, stacking them in the shops would have clocked the Hillsborough link, but wouldn't have felt there was a cat in hells chance that it was worth passing comments back up the line.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 16, 2018)

binka said:


> Reminds me of when Umbro named some new trainers 'Zyklon'. You would have thought someone might have noticed the slight problem along the way
> Umbro drops its Zyklon shoe after Jewish protests



Or when Next had to withdraw some boxer shorts that had a Hitler figure saluting some bombers!


----------



## DaveCinzano (Mar 16, 2018)

Wilf said:


> My initial thought was the designers can't have known - how could anybody produce a shirt like that knowingly...





> The shop said in a statement: "Topman apologises unreservedly for any offence caused by this T-shirt.
> 
> "The design was inspired by a Bob Marley track with the number referring to the year of re-release."



*coff*

*coffcoff*


----------



## QueenOfGoths (Mar 16, 2018)

I immediately thought of Hillsborough when I saw the t-shirt. The colour, the design, the graphics and, of course, the number. 

I can't believe that no one noticed. It's, i can't think of the right word, absurd.


----------



## likesfish (Mar 16, 2018)

even I thought that was fucking dark 
  claiming no relation to Hillsborough your joking


----------



## DaveCinzano (Mar 16, 2018)

QueenOfGoths said:


> I immediately thought of Hillsborough when I saw the t-shirt. The colour, the design, the graphics and, of course, the number.
> 
> I can't believe that no one noticed. It's, i can't think of the right word, absurd.



What's absurd about the well-known practice of designing shirts around the common theme of the last two digits of the year of re-release of a record? 

Seems totally legit to me.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 16, 2018)

DaveCinzano said:


> What's absurd about the well-known practice of designing shirts around the common theme of the last two digits of the year of re-release of a record?
> 
> Seems totally legit to me.



And putting the title of the track on the shirt. Incorrectly. With that well known symbol of Jamaica, a white rose...


----------



## Dogsauce (Mar 16, 2018)

Tbf the 'what goes around comes around' and 'Karma' could be seen as celebrating the police getting their comeuppance* for their role in the disaster. Very much doubt that was the intent however.

*yeh, I know, not going to happen


----------



## Dowie (Mar 17, 2018)

Teaboy said:


> Whomever designed it though, must have known.  Tactless shitbag.



we don't even know what country the designer is from, I'm not sure they exclusively work with UK based designers only - the manufacture of the thing is likely overseas and I wouldn't be surprised if some of the designs, especially where they just stick some random saying on a shirt for their own in store range... you often get t-shirts with just nonsense on them: "1973" "San Jose College" "varsity" etc..etc.. just generic crap to look like some US college thing... or that UK store that sells clothing made to look like it is from Japan - superdry.

I think you're right re: the shop, some people in stores would have noticed but sadly, being zero hours/close to or at min wage people weren't likely in a position to be able to flag it up... plenty of them won't have though - people who didn't grow up in the UK or indeed young people with no interest of football/not from Liverpool - the only press coverage may have seen could be of the inquiry perhaps.

I do wonder though about their Liverpool store - some people there must have seen the connection, perhaps some even complained and were ignored by head office.


----------



## scifisam (Mar 17, 2018)

Dowie said:


> we don't even know what country the designer is from, I'm not sure they exclusively work with UK based designers only - the manufacture of the thing is likely overseas and I wouldn't be surprised if some of the designs, especially where they just stick some random saying on a shirt for their own in store range... you often get t-shirts with just nonsense on them: "1973" "San Jose College" "varsity" etc..etc.. just generic crap to look like some US college thing... or that UK store that sells clothing made to look like it is from Japan - superdry.
> 
> I think you're right re: the shop, some people in stores would have noticed but sadly, being zero hours/close to or at min wage people weren't likely in a position to be able to flag it up... plenty of them won't have though - people who didn't grow up in the UK or indeed young people with no interest of football/not from Liverpool - the only press coverage may have seen could be of the inquiry perhaps.
> 
> I do wonder though about their Liverpool store - some people there must have seen the connection, perhaps some even complained and were ignored by head office.



My first thought went to "probably some outsourcer in Korea or something who understandably didn't know the context," but then why would that designer randomly choose that number and text? 96 is not a normal football shirt number and the quote is quite specific. 

Topman has made the bizarre claim that it's because a Bob Marley track featuring the line "what comes around" was re-released in 1996, reaching the giddy heights of 42 in the UK charts. That's obviously bollocks because anyone who knew that much about Bob Marley and his posthumous performance in the UK charts would not be an underpaid Asian worker that everything can be blamed on, and in the extremely unlikely event that said worker had that much knowledge of British culture they'd also know the significance of 96 for Liverpool FC. 

It's just that shitty form of publicity again. You know, where they increase the visibility of their brand by pretending to release something really offensive (sometimes even sending a few samples out to some shops). That sociopathic form of clickbait. I'm sure there's a term for it but it escapes me.


----------



## Raheem (Mar 18, 2018)

scifisam said:


> It's just that shitty form of publicity again. You know, where they increase the visibility of their brand by pretending to release something really offensive (sometimes even sending a few samples out to some shops). That sociopathic form of clickbait. I'm sure there's a term for it but it escapes me.



You'd think they'd have a less rubbish explanation pre-prepared if that was the case. And there is such a thing as bad publicity if you have a massive shop in Liverpool. OTOH, it's pretty difficult to think of a plausible way it happened. Maybe some designer ripped it off from Taschen's Bumper Book of Dodgy Football Stuff without really understanding what they were looking at and twenty people at Topshop got overpaid in turn to say "Yeah, I really like that". But I just don't see how that could happen in a business so renowned for its integrity.


----------



## Dowie (Mar 18, 2018)

scifisam said:


> My first thought went to "probably some outsourcer in Korea or something who understandably didn't know the context," but then why would that designer randomly choose that number and text? 96 is not a normal football shirt number and the quote is quite specific.
> 
> Topman has made the bizarre claim that it's because a Bob Marley track featuring the line "what comes around" was re-released in 1996, reaching the giddy heights of 42 in the UK charts. That's obviously bollocks because anyone who knew that much about Bob Marley and his posthumous performance in the UK charts would not be an underpaid Asian worker that everything can be blamed on, and in the extremely unlikely event that said worker had that much knowledge of British culture they'd also know the significance of 96 for Liverpool FC.
> 
> It's just that shitty form of publicity again. You know, where they increase the visibility of their brand by pretending to release something really offensive (sometimes even sending a few samples out to some shops). That sociopathic form of clickbait. I'm sure there's a term for it but it escapes me.



yeah it is a bit weird, it would make more sense if it was in relation to Tupac tbh... the rose + 96 being the year he was killed etc..

does sound like they're just making up something that vaguely fits as that Bob Marley excuse is dubious as you've pointed out

I just assumed it was a t-shirt designer getting lazy and putting a bunch of random, seemingly meaningless, things on a shirt - if it was deliberate then that is completely messed up


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 18, 2018)

Put a thousand monkeys in front of typewriters for a thousand years and they still wouldn’t  just happen to come up with with a LFC red shirt with 96 on the back in the same font as Jft96, a Yorkshire rose and a cuss aimed at Liverpool fans.

I can’t imagine anyone at TopShop realised* etc., but the designer must have known full well what they were doing.


*altough judging from every other aspect of Hillsborough I wouldn’t be too surprised if they did know and thought it would be edgy...


----------



## pesh (Mar 18, 2018)

Raheem said:


> I just don't see how that could happen in a business so renowned for its integrity.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 18, 2018)

DaveCinzano said:


> What's absurd about the well-known practice of designing shirts around the common theme of the last two digits of the year of re-release of a record?
> 
> Seems totally legit to me.


In some cases you have to be a bit more explicit. For example the '_490 BC'_ shirt I did for Snickers.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 15, 2018)

29 years ago today. RIP the 96. My respect and admiration for those who fought so long against such odds is immeasurable.


----------



## chandlerp (Jun 29, 2018)

David Conn ~ @david_conn (Guardian journalist) 

BREAKING Hillsborough: Judge Sir Peter Openshaw has lifted the "stay," the bar, on prosecuting ex South Yorkshire police Ch Supt David Duckenfield; he will now be tried for 95 counts of manslaughter.


----------



## Teaboy (Jun 29, 2018)

Just coming to post that.  Great news that at least it will go to court after all his taxpayer funded attempts to evade justice.


----------



## eatmorecheese (Jun 29, 2018)

YES


----------



## mod (Jun 29, 2018)

Fantastic news. 

Hillsborough police chief to face trial


----------



## editor (Jun 29, 2018)

mod said:


> Fantastic news.
> 
> Hillsborough police chief to face trial


Time that cunt faced justice. It should never ever have taken this long.


----------



## Teaboy (Jun 29, 2018)

editor said:


> Time that cunt faced justice. It should never ever have taken this long.



It remains extraordinary that there was an order in place to prevent him from being prosecuted.  Throughout the whole ordeal the utter brazenness of the powers involved has been eye watering.


----------



## Wilf (Jun 29, 2018)

Bettison next, hopefully.


----------



## Wilf (Jun 29, 2018)

I'm not enough of an optimist to imagine any of these cunts seeing the inside of a cell, but at least the possibility gets closer and they'll certainly end up facing their victims families in court as 'the accused'.  I so desperately want these cunts to do time, not just because of who they are and what they did - and what they continued to do over the years right through to these final shoddy attempts at evading justice. But it's not about my/our emotions, there's just a chance the families might feel a sense of … p_rogress, completion, closure_. Won't bring their relatives back, but it would be _something_.


----------



## mod (Jun 29, 2018)

Nothing but respect for families and loved ones who campaigned for so long against every fucking obstacle the establishment threw at them to keep this covered up. I look forward to the convictions when they will finally get the justice they deserve.


----------



## friedaweed (Jun 29, 2018)

Half way stage.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jun 30, 2018)

Good luck whoever's job it is to find an impartial jury.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 30, 2018)

Wilf said:


> I'm not enough of an optimist to imagine any of these cunts seeing the inside of a cell, but at least the possibility gets closer and they'll certainly end up facing their victims families in court as 'the accused'.  I so desperately want these cunts to do time, not just because of who they are and what they did - and what they continued to do over the years right through to these final shoddy attempts at evading justice. But it's not about my/our emotions, there's just a chance the families might feel a sense of … p_rogress, completion, closure_. Won't bring their relatives back, but it would be _something_.


Yes. This.


----------



## killer b (Aug 21, 2018)

Wilf said:


> I'm not enough of an optimist to imagine any of these cunts seeing the inside of a cell


Your pessimism has been rewarded.

CPS drops all charges against former Hillsborough officer


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 21, 2018)

I am so not surprised. Expect now a chain leading to similar decisions - _oh dear a botched CPS/someone job, unfortunately justice dictates that we cannot proceed on a fair basis_ etc for fucking ever


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 21, 2018)

“The CPS has a duty to keep all cases under continuing review. Since the original decision to charge Norman Bettison in June 2017 there have been a number of significant developments which have affected the available evidence. These include changes in the evidence of two witnesses and the death of a third witness.

“Our latest review of the evidence has concluded the collective impact of these developments means there is no longer a realistic prospect of conviction. I appreciate this news will be disappointing for the families and the CPS will meet with them in person to explain the decision.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 21, 2018)

_No longer a realistic prospect of conviction_


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 21, 2018)

Just to make clear this is not related to his actions at hillsborough - for which he has never been charged, essentially getting away with it - but for later statements and actions, much later, in the last few years in fact - amounting to misconduct in a public office.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Aug 21, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> _Not a realistic prospect of conviction_



Ftfy. 

We all knew that would be the case really


----------



## Athos (Aug 21, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> “The CPS has a duty to keep all cases under continuing review. Since the original decision to charge Norman Bettison in June 2017 there have been a number of significant developments which have affected the available evidence. These include changes in the evidence of two witnesses and the death of a third witness.
> 
> “Our latest review of the evidence has concluded the collective impact of these developments means there is no longer a realistic prospect of conviction. I appreciate this news will be disappointing for the families and the CPS will meet with them in person to explain the decision.



I wonder which two witnesses have changed their evidence, how, and why?


----------



## Fedayn (Aug 21, 2018)

And so it begins....


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 21, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> “The CPS has a duty to keep all cases under continuing review. Since the original decision to charge Norman Bettison in June 2017 there have been a number of significant developments which have affected the available evidence. These include changes in the evidence of two witnesses and the death of a third witness.
> 
> “Our latest review of the evidence has concluded the collective impact of these developments means there is no longer a realistic prospect of conviction. I appreciate this news will be disappointing for the families and the CPS will meet with them in person to explain the decision.



Apologies for not being up to speed here, but wasn’t he charged as a result of what he said/wrote? If so what could have changed? Other than the CPS charging him with the wrong offence?


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 21, 2018)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Apologies for not being up to speed here, but wasn’t he charged as a result of what he said/wrote? If so what could have changed? Other than the CPS charging him with the wrong offence?


The CPS in their original statement about his charging simply said "telling lies". My reading is that two were written and two were verbal - it would presumably be the last two in which the witnesses have changed their evidence. Why that would necessitate dropping the others i don't know.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 21, 2018)

He's going to put in a claim now i'm sure of it - already claiming today he was driven from his job as  Chief Constable of West Yorkshire Police in 2012 - a persecuted man. But not prosecuted.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 21, 2018)

Families v likely to ask for review.

edit: in fact, have confirmed they will exercise their right to review


----------



## brogdale (Jan 13, 2019)

Begins tomorrow.


----------



## Fedayn (Jan 13, 2019)

And on that note, can folk please not make comments, prejudicial or otherwise, on social media as lawyers acting for the defence are watching social media and the www for any comments they can use to get a mistrial etc.


----------



## Sprocket. (Jan 13, 2019)

Never forget.

Walk On.
By Mackenzie Thorpe.
C. 2018.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Jan 13, 2019)

J96 indeed. Breaks my heart every time I revisit this tragedy, the pictures I saw in the paper when I was a child I’ll never forget.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 23, 2019)

A warning of what may come next week when jury discharged:

Hillsborough judge orders jury to ignore claim fans 'forced' gate



> The judge at the manslaughter trial of the Hillsborough police match commander has directed a jury not to consider the accuracy of his claim that Liverpool supporters forced open a gate in the middle of the 1989 disaster





> The judge, Sir Peter Openshaw, said it was “not in the least surprising” that, while the disaster was unfolding, Duckenfield said Liverpool supporters had forced the gate. He told the jury he was directing them “in clear terms” that Duckenfield’s explanation had “no significance in the case at all and you should put it out of your mind.”.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 1, 2019)

Don't think this is a good sign.

The Hillsborough jury at Preston Crown Court cannot reach unanimous verdicts and has been told to consider majority verdicts.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 3, 2019)

Jury failed to reach  verdict on Duckenfield and are now dismissed. Other bloke guilty. CPS seeking retrial for Duckenfield.


----------



## Athos (Apr 3, 2019)

Once he offered the majority, I thought this'd be the best we could hope for.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 3, 2019)

Must stress, the reporting restrictions remain in place. Verdicts are pretty much all that can be reported.


----------



## TopCat (Apr 3, 2019)

A jury of daily mail readers? That was always a branch favourite.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 3, 2019)

Fuck.


----------



## billy_bob (Apr 3, 2019)

Fuck indeed. Pleased that at least the CPS are pushing for another go.


----------



## DaveCinzano (May 13, 2019)

Offered without comment.

BBC:

*Hillsborough trial: Safety officer Graham Mackrell fined £6,500*

37 minutes ago






_Former Sheffield Wednesday club secretary Graham Mackrell had responsibility for safety at Hillsborough stadium_

The stadium safety officer in charge at the time of the Hillsborough disaster has been fined £6,500.

Former secretary of Sheffield Wednesday Football Club, Graham Mackrell, is the first person to be convicted of an offence relating to the tragedy.

Mackrell, 69, of Stocking Pelham, Hertfordshire, failed to ensure there were enough turnstiles to prevent large crowds building up.

He was also ordered to pay £5,000 towards the prosecution costs.

Ninety-six Liverpool fans died following the crush in the central pens of the Leppings Lane terrace at the FA Cup semi-final between Liverpool and Nottingham Forest on 15 April 1989.





_The people who lost their lives in the Hillsborough disaster_

Mackrell sat in the well of the court rather than the dock for the sentencing hearing at Preston Crown Court.

He was found guilty last month after an 11-week trial of failing to discharge a duty under the Health and Safety at Work Act in respect of ensuring there were enough turnstiles to prevent unduly large crowds building up outside the ground.

The jury in the trial was unable to reach a verdict over match commander David Duckenfield, 74, who denied the gross negligence manslaughter of 95 Liverpool fans.


No verdict on Hillsborough police chief
Hillsborough safety boss 'had no training'
Duckenfield treated as 'target of blame'
The court heard there were seven turnstiles available for the 10,100 Liverpool fans with standing tickets.

Judge Sir Peter Openshaw said: "He should have realised there was an obvious risk that so many spectators could not pass through seven turnstiles in time for kick-off."

But Judge Openshaw said Mackrell's offence did not directly cause the disaster inside the ground.

He said: "The defendant's offence was at least one of the direct causes of the crush at the turnstiles outside the ground but it was not a direct cause of the crush on the terraces inside the ground that resulted in the deaths of 96 spectators and injury to many more, to which the crush outside the ground did no more than set the scene."





_The jury heard 96 men, women and children died as a result of a fatal crush on the Leppings Lane terrace_

In a statement, Mackrell said he was "grateful" the judge had recognised "my conduct did not cause or contribute to the death of any person or cause any person to be injured on that tragic day".

He added: "Despite that, I do wish to take this opportunity to make clear my sympathy to all those impacted by this appalling tragedy.

"No-one should have to go through what the families have experienced."

Outside court, Louise Brookes, whose brother Andrew died at Hillsborough, called the sentence "shameful" and said the fine amounted to £67.70 per life lost.

"Our 96 deserve better than this and us families deserve better than this. We are all getting on in age and enough is enough," she said.

"My weekly shopping costs more than £67.70."

*'Promoted'*
Christine Burke, whose father Henry died in the disaster, added: "When Hillsborough happened he [Mackrell] was in charge of the safety certificate at the time and he should have been sacked straight away.

"He went on to bigger and better things, he was promoted. This is a man who has been paid very well and gone on to do other things. That should not have happened."

The court heard Mackrell made £700 a week in his job as administrator for the Football League Managers' Association and earned an additional £670 a week from pensions.

A hearing to decide whether Mr Duckenfield will face a retrial is expected to be held next month.

Under the law at the time, there can be no prosecution for the 96th victim, Tony Bland, as he died more than a year and a day after the disaster.


----------



## friedaweed (Jun 25, 2019)

Off we go again 

Hillsborough match commander faces retrial


----------



## chandlerp (Jun 26, 2019)

I agree with your sad face emoji but it's good that they haven't just decided to drop it.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 7, 2019)

Trial starts today, so usual warnings about not saying anything daft.


----------



## PursuedByBears (Nov 28, 2019)

Not guilty

"The former South Yorkshire police chief superintendent David Duckenfield has been found not guilty of gross negligence manslaughter more than 30 years after he commanded the police at the 1989 FA Cup semi-final at Hillsborough between Liverpool and Nottingham Forest, at which 96 people died."


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 28, 2019)

ffs


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Nov 28, 2019)

ffs indeed.


----------



## Libertad (Nov 28, 2019)

fucksake


----------



## sojourner (Nov 28, 2019)

He'll never wash those hands clean, the lying fuck. Fucks sake.


----------



## Calamity1971 (Nov 28, 2019)

Those poor women. Fucking devastating .


----------



## DaveCinzano (Nov 28, 2019)

I guess this means we can now call him a grossly negligent, lying sack of murdering shit without worrying that doing so might cause him to escape true justice ⚖


----------



## Plumdaff (Nov 28, 2019)

Such a fucking indictment of the corruption of this country. What a tragic fucking farce.


----------



## redsquirrel (Nov 28, 2019)

Shit


----------



## Voley (Nov 28, 2019)

Ah Jesus.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Nov 28, 2019)

Fucking disgusting. Feel for the families.


----------



## Voley (Nov 28, 2019)

Big love to all in Liverpool today.

YNWA.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 28, 2019)

Another of those times when I hollowly laugh at the idea that these scum police by our consent.

Another of those times when the idea of a "People's Court" unburdened by the niceties of never holding coppers or the state to account, is appealing.


----------



## Athos (Nov 28, 2019)

Fuck


----------



## JimW (Nov 28, 2019)

They just don't give a fuck. Reminds me of that bit in Red Riding with the cop going "This is the North, we do what we like."


----------



## Wilf (Nov 28, 2019)

Fucking ACAB.


----------



## dessiato (Nov 28, 2019)

No surprise I'm afraid. They always seem to get away with whatever they do.


----------



## teqniq (Nov 28, 2019)

It would have been akin to a minor miracle if he had been found guilty tbh. One can however always but hope


----------



## DaveCinzano (Nov 28, 2019)

Expect Duckenfield to announce the setting up of a Thin Blue Line support group any day now - joined on the podium by Tony Long, Alan Murray and Simon Harwood.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 28, 2019)

No accountability


----------



## TopCat (Nov 28, 2019)

DaveCinzano said:


> Expect Duckenfield to announce the setting up of a Thin Blue Line support group any day now - joined on the podium by Tony Long, Alan Murray and Simon Harwood.


I expect him to sue to get comp for the stress of the repeated attempts to convict him.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Nov 28, 2019)

Disgusting.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Nov 28, 2019)

“If 96 police officers had been killed on 15th April 1989...”


Too fucking right.


----------



## William of Walworth (Nov 28, 2019)

David Conn's analysis of the verdict in this hours-recent Guardian article is compulsory reading IMO ... 

He blows apart the judge's misleadingness and inadequacy throughout this trial


----------



## William of Walworth (Nov 28, 2019)

TopCat said:


> I expect him to sue to get comp for the stress of the repeated attempts to convict him.



Supported by ACPO/Police Federation etc., no doubt


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 28, 2019)

Grieving Hillsborough mum's scathing letter to judge during manslaughter case


----------



## Azrael (Nov 28, 2019)

Couldn't agree more with William's link. Some possibilities for reform:-

However the prosecution was actually conducted, the appearance of a conflict of interest when the state prosecutes its own agents is too great: I see no reason that the families shouldn't have been allowed to direct their own private prosecution, with public funds if needs be.

It also reaffirms my belief that judges should be stopped from summing up the facts, as they are in other jurisdictions, including many states of the union: with the best will in the world, it's extremely hard to do impartially, is responsible for a ton of appeals, and I doubt that any aid it gives to the jury's understanding is sufficient to justify these pitfalls.


----------



## teqniq (Nov 28, 2019)

It was likely a bit problematic going after Duckenfield with a manslaughter charge tbh especially when it was really the whole sytem that was at fault.


----------



## Azrael (Nov 28, 2019)

Whatever the systemic failings, there were specific accusations against the ex-super's decisions, accusations more than sufficient to justify a trial.

Having made the decision to try him, it was the worst of all worlds to give special treatment like allowing him to sit on the defence benches instead of in the prisoner's dock, or to gloss over the inquest evidence. Better to have dropped the case then run it like that.


----------



## krtek a houby (Nov 29, 2019)

Disgusting. 30 years of pain and no justice.


----------



## Rosemary Jest (Nov 29, 2019)

Scumbag judge is all I can say.


----------



## Streathamite (Nov 29, 2019)

Rosemary Jest said:


> Scumbag judge is all I can say.


tbf, it was a Jury trial, although there were serious questions concerning the judges too-favourable handling of dukenfield


----------



## friedaweed (Nov 29, 2019)

You have to wait for him to die even if he does go to prison, for true justice to occur. Keeping this sort of cunt in jail is just prolonging the inevitable release. Maybe like old people in care his goal should be paid for from his payout pot but lets face it even in his caravan in Whitby his retirement is bloodied with guilt.

Let's just dance on his grave like we did with the witch 

ETA how I really felt yesterday.

Fuck him. Does he look happy these days?


----------



## Azrael (Nov 30, 2019)

Streathamite said:


> tbf, it was a Jury trial, although there were serious questions concerning the judges too-favourable handling of dukenfield


Yes, it was a jury trial, but since judges have vast powers of influence over juries, the concerns you note can easily swing the verdict. Judges decide which evidence is heard, frame that allowed in, can shut down cross-examination or even question witnesses themselves, can make it plain to the jury through their expressions what they think of witnesses, and perhaps most crucially of all, get to sum up the facts after prosecution and defence have delivered their closing speeches.

A judge's handling of the case is made all the more crucial by the weakened state of English juries after decades of ill-considered reforms (teenage jurors, random selection off the electoral register, juries allowed to fall below twelve and the possibility of decision by a supermajority). I don't want to focus on one judge without knowing the full details, but it does illustrate the urgency of reforms. No families should be left feeling as these have.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 30, 2019)

teqniq said:


> It was likely a bit problematic going after Duckenfield with a manslaughter charge tbh especially when it was really the whole sytem that was at fault.



I would have liked to see charges for destroying evidence, perverting the course of justice etc. Realistically though such charges wouldn't stand a much better chance of success.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Apr 18, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> I would have liked to see charges for destroying evidence, perverting the course of justice etc. Realistically though such charges wouldn't stand a much better chance of success.



Ask and ye shall receive.



> Two former South Yorkshire police officers and the force’s lawyer at the time of the Hillsborough stadium disaster in 1989 face trial on Monday charged with perverting the course of justice over the amendment of police statements about the tragedy.
> 
> Peter Metcalf, who was a partner at the firm of solicitors that acted for the force, Hammond Suddards; Donald Denton, a South Yorkshire police chief superintendent at the time; and Alan Foster, a detective chief inspector, were charged with the offences in 2017, after the conclusion of the new inquests into how 96 people died at the football ground.











						Hillsborough police face trial accused of perverting course of justice
					

Two former South Yorkshire officers and force’s lawyer accused of amending statements




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## TopCat (Apr 19, 2021)

They will get hammered for this.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Apr 19, 2021)

Amending the statements. Why not altering? Or changing? Or fabricating?


----------



## brogdale (Apr 19, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Amending the statements. Why not altering? Or changing? Or fabricating?


As in lying cunts caught lying red-handed; the cunts.

That would have been a better headline


----------



## belboid (May 26, 2021)

TopCat said:


> They will get hammered for this.


if fucking only.  

Of course there is nothing illegal in changing statements.  It wasn’t a real trial they lied to, so fuck it.   

Years, 32. Dead, 96.  Justice? 0









						Hillsborough trial: Men acquitted as judge rules no case to answer
					

Two ex-police officers and a force solicitor are acquitted of perverting the course of justice.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## DaveCinzano (May 26, 2021)

🤬


----------



## TopCat (May 26, 2021)

Cunts


----------



## sleaterkinney (May 26, 2021)

TopCat said:


> They will get hammered for this.


It's so fucking brazen, isn't it. The law isn't for them.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (May 26, 2021)

Just... no words. Only anger.


----------



## sleaterkinney (May 26, 2021)

Did the CPS throw this one on purpose?


----------



## steveo87 (May 26, 2021)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Just... no words. Only anger.


This.


----------



## Raheem (May 26, 2021)

sleaterkinney said:


> Did the CPS throw this one on purpose?


I don't claim to know, but it looks a bit like it might be a case of accidentally picking the wrong offence.


----------



## TopCat (May 27, 2021)

The smarmy solicitor outside the enquiry made me shout at the tv.


----------



## Athos (May 27, 2021)

Raheem said:


> I don't claim to know, but it looks a bit like it might be a case of accidentally picking the wrong offence.


That was my immediate thought. Maybe they should have gone for the offence of misconduct in a public office.


----------



## Athos (May 27, 2021)

TopCat said:


> The smarmy solicitor outside the enquiry made me shout at the tv.



When he made the quip about the money being spent on hospitals for Liverpool, he came across as a particularly smug cunt.


----------



## Athos (May 27, 2021)

sleaterkinney said:


> Did the CPS throw this one on purpose?


I doubt it. Would've been much easier to throw it earlier on. I think this was more likely a cockup than a conspiracy.


----------



## hitmouse (May 27, 2021)

Thinking about how there's this, and the Daniel Morgan thing, and the Ballymurphy thing, and the spycops inquiry, all with big developments at more or less the same time... I don't really have a neat conclusion to go there, beyond like "fucking hell there's a lot of murky shit out there".


----------



## Artaxerxes (May 28, 2021)

Andy Burnham calmly kicking the shit out of the secret barrister on twatter and levelled a lot of criticism at the legal profession.


----------



## likesfish (May 28, 2021)

Their was the initial fuck up people died.
Shit was piled on the dead that people belived because football fans had a terrible reputation.
 So the cover up got worse and worse to justify the initial fuck up.😡
 The court cases were too late and pretty ropey


----------



## hitmouse (Jun 4, 2021)

South Yorkshire and West Midlands police agree payouts for Hillsborough ‘cover-up’
					

More than 600 people are to be compensated for false campaign that tried to blame victims for disaster




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## chandlerp (Jun 4, 2021)

Andy Burnham is calling into question the collapse of the trials after a witness has produced a copy of her original statements indicating that she was providing a statement for a JUDICIAL inquiry after all.

‘Judicial’ Hillsborough inquiry questionnaires cast doubt on trial ruling | Hillsborough disaster | The Guardian


----------



## Raheem (Jun 4, 2021)

chandlerp said:


> Andy Burnham is calling into question the collapse of the trials after a witness has produced a copy of her original statements indicating that she was providing a statement for a JUDICIAL inquiry after all.
> 
> ‘Judicial’ Hillsborough inquiry questionnaires cast doubt on trial ruling | Hillsborough disaster | The Guardian


Seems like straw-clutching tbh. The prosecution failed because the enquiry wasn't a "process of justice". It didn't have powers to find anyone guilty or liable. "Judicial" does start with the same letter, but...


----------



## BillRiver (Jun 4, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Seems like straw-clutching tbh. The prosecution failed because the enquiry wasn't a "process of justice". It didn't have powers to find anyone guilty or liable. "Judicial" does start with the same letter, but...



QC seems to disagree with you there.

"Pete Weatherby QC, who represented 22 families at the 2014-16 inquests, which reached a verdict that the 96 victims at Hillsborough were unlawfully killed due to police gross negligence, said the questionnaires supported the view that the Taylor inquiry was a course of justice."


----------



## Raheem (Jun 4, 2021)

Well, he earns a lot clutching at straws.


----------



## BillRiver (Jun 4, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Well, he earns a lot clutching at straws.



He's quite knowledgeable about the law, and the legal system. His career is built in part on advising which cases are worth pursuing, and which aren't.
What relevant training and experience do you have?


----------



## BillRiver (Jun 4, 2021)

More from Mr Weatherby, QC:

“Taylor was appointed by government to be the independent judicial chair of a tribunal to investigate a terrible, avoidable tragedy,” he said. “It had the hallmarks of a court, heard oral evidence, had questioning by advocates for interested parties, reached conclusions of fact and accountability, and made recommendations which were published in parliament. Surely it does violence to ordinary language to suggest it was not a ‘course of public justice’.”

Weatherby also questioned the view that the first inquest, heard from November 1990 to March 1991, could not have been perverted by the amended police statements. Taylor himself noted in his report that the evidence gathered for his inquiry also provided the evidence for the inquest.

Weatherby said the Crown Prosecution Service should have appealed against the ruling, adding: “If the families had had legal standing in this trial, the ruling would have been appealed without hesitation.”."









						‘Judicial’ Hillsborough inquiry questionnaires cast doubt on trial ruling
					

Surveys sent to witnesses ‘contradict’ argument given for halting trial of two ex-police officers and solicitor




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Raheem (Jun 4, 2021)

BillRiver said:


> He's quite knowledgeable about the law, and the legal system. His career is built in part on advising which cases are worth pursuing, and which aren't.
> What relevant training and experience do you have?



Stop being a cock.


----------



## BillRiver (Jun 4, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Stop being a cock.



Speaking to yourself again? Fair play.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 4, 2021)

Aside from the 68 altered police logbooks/statements, what has happened to the fans/residents witness statements alterations issue? Anyone have any info - poss paths on that.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2021)

BillRiver said:


> QC seems to disagree with you there.
> 
> "Pete Weatherby QC, who represented 22 families at the 2014-16 inquests, which reached a verdict that the 96 victims at Hillsborough were unlawfully killed due to police gross negligence, said the questionnaires supported the view that the Taylor inquiry was a course of justice."


i'd like to think that justice will prevail but i think it's sadly more likely the law will once again have trampled justice under foot


----------



## BillRiver (Jun 4, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> i'd like to think that justice will prevail but i think it's sadly more likely the law will once again have trampled justice under foot



Indeed.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 4, 2021)

I wonder the tally of SYP (_get your claims in early lads_)  comp vs families.


----------



## BillRiver (Jun 4, 2021)

Fuck, I hate the South Yorkshire police.

Past and present.

I mean, I generally hate cops anyway, but SYP I reserve extra dollops of venom for.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 4, 2021)

It's also pretty clear here that there was a general _conspiracy _to pervert the course of justice - of all future attempts at justice, not just this accidentally _oopsied _one by the CPS. Just because they altered the evidence they gave to one process shouldn't and surely doesn't mean the door isn't open on another does it?


----------

