# Are teachers perceived as 'low status'?



## Cloo (Oct 31, 2012)

Every now and then, I have considered going into teaching - retraining is probably not an option for me, but I was interested to find out that I could get a pretty sizeable bursary because I have a first class degree - almost twice as much as for someone with a 2:1

This seems like total BS to me, as my degree in no way guarantees me being a better teacher than someone who might have failed their degree completely. I assume it has mainly to do with the government's idea that teaching is a low-status job and by getting 'high performers' into it, that status will be raised.

Now that's crap on so many levels. For a start, people aren't going to know or care what teachers' final degree mark is. Also, there's no evidence that people with Firsts are all in stratospheric 'high status' careers and ignoring teaching as beneath them. And I honestly don't think teachers are considered 'low status' anyway, and if they are, it's not because of their educational qualifications. If anything, it's mostly about the pay ultimately.

I think a general lowering of regard for authority is behind people's sometimes poor attitude to teachers - parents might side with their child rather than believe a teacher when they might not have a few decades ago, or might feel able to be/justified in being aggressive to them in a way they wouldn't have in the past.But I don't think that means people are therefore looking down on them.

Yes, there are jokes about 'Those who can't, teach', but I think they're mostly jokes, not signs of a deeply ingrained disdain towards the teaching profession.

Be interested to hear what others, especially teachers, think about this.


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## temper_tantrum (Oct 31, 2012)

Yes.


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## Stanley Edwards (Oct 31, 2012)

> And I honestly don't think teachers are considered 'low status' anyway, and if they are, it's not because of their educational qualifications. If anything, it's mostly about the pay ultimately.


 
That's about it.

Of all I have known who originally left university to go into teaching none lasted more than a year. Most complaints were about the initial placement and not having any authority over the kids. All were persuaded to take easier options for better salaries. In one case, that was maintanence and observation of public sewers.


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## quimcunx (Oct 31, 2012)

The govt despise teachers. They're more interested in driving wages down by having lesser qualified teachers assistants taking sole control of classes or flooding the market with newly qualified teachers on the go who they can pay less than they do experienced teachers.  Not sure where these bursaries fit in unless it's about flooding the market. Either way I'm assuming that if this govt are doing it, it's a bad thing.


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## Maurice Picarda (Oct 31, 2012)

Depends on the teacher, surely. A primary NQT is to the head of an eight-form entry specialist academy as a junior boiling vat minder is to the deputy assistant manager of a blacking factory. The range is gamma minus to beta.


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## littlebabyjesus (Oct 31, 2012)

I think it's a good thing for teachers to have firsts, tbh. In Finland, you have to have a masters degree to teach at secondary level and you're expected to keep up with the latest developments in your subject area, and teachers are most definitely not 'low status' in Finland. Among other things, it's good if teachers are good at their subjects.


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## quimcunx (Oct 31, 2012)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I think it's a good thing for teachers to have firsts, tbh. In Finland, you have to have a masters degree to teach at secondary level, and you're expected to keep up with the latest developments in your subject area, and teachers are most definitely not 'low status' in Finland. Among other things, it's good if teachers are good at their subjects.


 
Do you think that high status, high paid teachers in all schools will be the result of this govt's education policies?


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## Ax^ (Oct 31, 2012)




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## littlebabyjesus (Oct 31, 2012)

quimcunx said:


> Do you think that high status, high paid teachers in all schools will be the result of this govt's education policies?


I doubt it. But I do like the idea of academically able teachers in later years, definitely at sixth-form level.


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## Epona (Oct 31, 2012)

Any job where people are there for vocational reasons, putting something back into society, rather than making as much money as they possibly can in the shortest time possible and sod everyone else seems to be viewed as "low status" these days, and that has been the case for a while now. That includes things such as teaching and nursing.


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## Puddy_Tat (Nov 1, 2012)

quimcunx said:


> The govt despise teachers. They're more interested in driving wages down by having lesser qualified teachers assistants taking sole control of classes or flooding the market with newly qualified teachers on the go who they can pay less than they do experienced teachers. Not sure where these bursaries fit in unless it's about flooding the market. Either way I'm assuming that if this govt are doing it, it's a bad thing.


 
I've also read (I'm not going to claim it as definite fact) that the tories "academies" can hire unqualified teachers.

And dunno really about the whole 'status' kinda thing.  Do you mean in terms of income, other peoples' attitudes or what?

Teachers (in the state sector at least) do seem to get looked down on by politicians (especially tory ones) and there's no longer the kind of deference from 'the lower orders' there once was. One theory is that since most people had mixed experiences in their own school days, they tend to be at best ambivalent towards teachers.

One of my aunts (secondary, maths) and one of my cousins (primary, generalist) are teachers and they both seem to enjoy it.  Personally, I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole.

Like most jobs, from what I gather, progression means spending more time on management sort of stuff than actually doing the job.


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## treefrog (Nov 1, 2012)

Actually too depressed at how teachers are being treated by the government here (NZ) to write about it.

They hate us. Really, really hate us.


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## kittyP (Nov 1, 2012)

I think they are considered low status. 
As you said because of pay and people are still under the vastly wrong misconception that due to school holidays they sit around doing nothing half the year. 
Other than nurses (who I consider in a similar situation) teachers do the most disproportionate amount of work compared to pay that I can think of. 
I may be biased as most of my adult life has been spent working in schools but it sadens me that, even though I have seen the most sheer beautiful pleasure that can be achieved by teaching, I would mostly not advise someone to become a teacher.


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## kittyP (Nov 1, 2012)

treefrog said:
			
		

> Actually too depressed at how teachers are being treated by the government here (NZ) to write about it.
> 
> They hate us. Really, really hate us.



I almost couldn't be arsed to write my post either as it's so fucking depressing


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## kittyP (Nov 1, 2012)

quimcunx said:
			
		

> The govt despise teachers. They're more interested in driving wages down by having lesser qualified teachers assistants taking sole control of classes



Thing is, this works different ways. 
I will say that my only experience is in special educational needs, which I am aware does make a difference. 
I have seen learning support assistants (LSAs) teach classes far better than some teachers can. 
But, they need to be paid properly for their level of responsibility and be allowed proper access to training programmes that lead to a teaching qualification (but not via the normal routes) or a qualification that is higher than an LSA but not a teacher, which doesn't really exist. 
But at the end of the day, if an LSA is teaching a class, they need to be paid accordingly.


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## quimcunx (Nov 1, 2012)

That would be fine. But none of that will happen, presumably?


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## weltweit (Nov 1, 2012)

I know a few teachers and I don't think their profession is seen as low status. The trouble is there are a wide range of teachers and then you get into lecturers and the like. A teacher working in the private system at a secondary level is likely to be paid better than the same in the state sector. And in the state sector someone teaching in an FE college may have more status than a primary teacher.


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## kittyP (Nov 1, 2012)

quimcunx said:
			
		

> That would be fine. But none of that will happen, presumably?



Well yes, I was ranting some what


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## kittyP (Nov 1, 2012)

weltweit said:
			
		

> I know a few teachers and I don't think their profession is seen as low status. The trouble is there are a wide range of teachers and then you get into lecturers and the like. A teacher working in the private system at a secondary level is likely to be paid better than the same in the state sector. And in the state sector someone teaching in an FE college may have more status than a primary teacher.



I know some teachers who do not feel their profession is low status and plenty of people who do not think that teachers are low status but overall, I don't think that is the standard.


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## Shippou-Sensei (Nov 1, 2012)

weltweit said:


> And in the state sector someone teaching in an FE college may have more status than a primary teacher.


 
dunno.  HE yeah quite possibly  but FE?   FE is a real mixed bag.


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## punchdrunkme (Nov 1, 2012)

A friend of mine is a poet and a teacher. Here's a spoken word piece of his about the status of teachers which really made me smile.


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## kittyP (Nov 1, 2012)

punchdrunkme said:


> A friend of mine is a poet and a teacher. Here's a spoken word piece of his about the status of teachers which really made me smile.




That's wicked 
Thanks for brining some light in 

It also inspired me to write some stuff down. x


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## treefrog (Nov 1, 2012)

In NZ teachers at a school for girls with special needs were accused of being unprofessional by the education minister because they voiced concerns the girls couldn't cope in co-ed schools when their school is shut down to save money.The teachers are concerned the girls may suffer sexual abuse or pregnancy from being with boys when they're incapable of dealing with their emotions or drives. http://www.nzherald.co.nz/education/news/article.cfm?c_id=35&objectid=10844294

She also called principals unprofessional for not reading a document that had been put online less than a week before http://www.nzherald.co.nz/education/news/article.cfm?c_id=35&objectid=10838500

The government says there are too many substandard teachers in schools and that the registration requirements must be tightened whilst at the same time saying anyone with subject experience is more than qualified to teach in charter schools without any formal training.The "sponsors" will also be held to less accountability http://www.nzherald.co.nz/primary-education/news/article.cfm?c_id=288&objectid=10841006

At the union conference the minister said that low educational achievement among minorities were due to teachers not making any effort to pronounce Maori/Pasifika names correctly, when the Government refused to spent $4m annually on providing any kind of basic breakfast to children in poor areas (who are usually Maori/PI) http://www.nzherald.co.nz/education/news/article.cfm?c_id=35&objectid=10838208

The government announced the closure or restructuring of 38 schools in Christchurch with no prior discussion with the schools, and then gave them about 6 weeks to put together a response. Over the holidays. Then the exam period.http://www.nzherald.co.nz/education/news/article.cfm?c_id=35&objectid=10838081

They implemented a new payroll system over 18 months late, which resulted in hundreds of teachers being incorrectly paid or not paid at all. Two months later, some people are still not being paid.http://www.nzherald.co.nz/education/news/article.cfm?c_id=35&objectid=10842617

Our Government seems to absolutely hate us, their recent renegotiation of the teaching contract included clauses on forcing women who'd suffered a miscarriage to stay home for three weeks without pay (yes, really) among other pretty nasty attacks on pregnant women and new mums. Schools coerce teachers not to report assaults to police as it would look bad. Parents expect us to teach their kids a subject and bring them up as decent human beings and even feed them (from our own pocket).

I am in school for 13 hours today, I'm taking a break to supervise an after school club. I worked through my break and lunch as I was on duty. I don't know when I'll get dinner tonight or when I'll get home. Everyone has an opinion on my profession and how it should be done. I'm accused by management of being unprofessional and letting the kids down if I ask for help due to stress or wanting professional development. A student called me a cunt today.

Yeah, I think we're perceived as low status.


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## Dandred (Nov 1, 2012)

I'm quite lucky as teachers in Korean are regarded highly in society.

Wouldn't say no to more money though!


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## kittyP (Nov 1, 2012)

treefrog said:


> In NZ teachers at a school for girls with special needs were accused of being unprofessional by the education minister because they voiced concerns the girls couldn't cope in co-ed schools when their school is shut down to save money.The teachers are concerned the girls may suffer sexual abuse or pregnancy from being with boys when they're incapable of dealing with their emotions or drives. http://www.nzherald.co.nz/education/news/article.cfm?c_id=35&objectid=10844294
> 
> She also called principals unprofessional for not reading a document that had been put online less than a week before http://www.nzherald.co.nz/education/news/article.cfm?c_id=35&objectid=10838500
> 
> ...


 
That is totally disgusting. 
I will say that it is pretty much the same here in government and a lot of councils but no one is saying it. Well no one that "matters" iyswim? 

The borough that I worked in pretty much closed all of its SEN secondarys and amalgamated them in to one "Super School". From kids that had extreme physical disabilities/needs and were often fighting for their lives on a daily basis, to kids that had basically just been kicked out of the local comp for EBD violent behaviour. And everything in-between. 
With not enough staff (teaching and all else) to cope with it all. 
Staff and students being hurt on a daily basis. You were lucking to get a pencil/equipment out in a lesson sometimes, let alone teach but some damn good teachers/support staff managed it on a daily basis for years and years.
I am saying 'managed' it, past tense. I have not been there most of this year but it has become an Academy over the summer *spits* so who knows.   

I don't think some people know what some education staff have to/do out of love for their students in this country.


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## treefrog (Nov 1, 2012)

kittyP said:


> That is totally disgusting.
> I will say that it is pretty much the same here in government and a lot of councils but no one is saying it. Well no one that "matters" iyswim?
> 
> The borough that I worked in pretty much closed all of its SEN secondarys and amalgamated them in to one "Super School". From kids that had extreme physical disabilities/needs and were often fighting for their lives on a daily basis, to kids that had basically just been kicked out of the local comp for EBD violent behaviour. And everything in-between.
> ...


 
It grinds you down, aye. You try so hard for the young people in your care, with not enough money, time or resources. When they fail it's YOUR fault, YOU'RE unprofessional, YOU should have tried harder. Doesn't matter if they're failing cause they're working part-time to feed their siblings, or dealing with parents on drugs/booze, or don't get enough to eat, or any of the million other problems kids have. It's because you teachers don't work hard enough.

And if you complain or speak up you're a money-grabbing, lazy troublemaker.


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## kittyP (Nov 1, 2012)

treefrog said:


> It grinds you down, aye. You try so hard for the young people in your care, with not enough money, time or resources. When they fail it's YOUR fault, YOU'RE unprofessional, YOU should have tried harder. Doesn't matter if they're failing cause they're working part-time to feed their siblings, or dealing with parents on drugs/booze, or don't get enough to eat, or any of the million other problems kids have. It's because you teachers don't work hard enough.
> 
> And if you complain or speak up you're a money-grabbing, lazy troublemaker.


 
When I say I say I want to go back to work coz I miss the kids and I really care about them and I see what the shit staff do with them, people (quite rightly really) say that there is nothing I can do if I am killing myself. There will always be more kids with more problems and someone will always have to help when you can't. OK. I get that.
Problem is. I know this sounds big headed, I am too tired to care right now, I know what "I" can do. I know what is still missing since I have been off sick. I know the issues that are still being ignored that nobody else is raising. And I am damn good and being pragmatic and demanding but polite, realistic and communicative.

I really need to go back to work but I don't want to. 
Conflict of interests huh?


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## catinthehat (Nov 1, 2012)

In my team we have firsts,Phds and post grads a plenty.  Managed by conforming twonks with HNDs in management studies.  A combination of deskilling and qualifications relativism is all about disempowering teachers as a group.  IMO its a job that only works if you can put the job before everything else - I know if I had children or family responsibilities it would be impossible.


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## Manter (Nov 1, 2012)

Puddy_Tat said:


> I've also read (I'm not going to claim it as definite fact) that the tories "academies" can hire unqualified teachers.


Private schools have always hired unqualified teachers- but that just means they hire who they like, not that they are bad- they ignore things like the maths GCSE pass rule


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## Athos (Nov 1, 2012)

I guess some people feel that a lot of teachers have drifted into it because they have so few alternatives.  And that rewarding those who have first class degrees with bigger bursaries attracts people who could do something else but choose teaching i.e. candidates of a higher calibre.


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## spanglechick (Nov 1, 2012)

Manter said:


> Private schools have always hired unqualified teachers- but that just means they hire who they like, not that they are bad- they ignore things like the maths GCSE pass rule


well - it also means they hire people with no training in *how* to teach.  Which kind of implies that the *how* of teaching is somehow unimportant - which couldn't be further from the truth.

Teaching gets a kicking. Teachers get a kicking. Even on here, you notice that everyone assumes the worst.

People think they know about education because they went to school.  

The first thing that's wrong with that is how much teaching has changed.  When I went to school, the teacher stood a the front, talked for about half he lesson, writing stuff on the board and asking a ew questions, and then we answered questions in our books.  It's known as chalk and talk, and it only works for a small proportion of young people. The others don't have the concentration, are kinaesthetic learners, or promptly forget everything as soon as the lesson is over.  That isn't learning, and in state schools, if you did that nowadays, you'd be 'managed out' of the profession.  

When I went to school I was precociously bright: a grammar school girl anyway, I'd been put through primary a year early and my mum decided to have me do two years at the last year of primary so i didn't go up to secondary aged 10.  But because I was used to being the brightest kid in the school, and suddenly I wasn't any more, I got demotivated and lazy. I sank like a stone and at GCSE I got two As, 5Cs and a D.  Criminal.  Yes - those were the grades I deserved, but where in the interim between age 11 and 16 was the tracking and monitoring, the alarm bells saying "this kid is massively underperforming, she needs support / intervention / a kick up the arse".  These days, the heads of departments in which i was underperforming would rightly get a bollocking long before I even sat the GCSEs.  These days in state schools you have to show kids are making progress at the proper rate based on what they can do when they come in. If you have too many kids like me, the school gets put under special measures and may be shut down.

When I was at school, teachers used to shout and ridicule and humiliate to exert discipline.  They regularly threw stuff at us (chalk, books, board rubbers) Our metalwork teacher grabbed a kid by his lapels and threw him into a wall. They used to smoke pipes in class, and a few had a reputation for falling asleep drunk in the afternoons.  All of these things would now, rightly, mean a teacher would be dsciplined and most of them would mean instant dismissal.

Just because you went to school does not mean you know what happens there now.  I've been teaching since 1996 and it's almost completely different since then, let alone since I was at school.  I've given up pointing out that the answer to "why don't they teach that at school?" is "we do."

People don't often presume to think they can tell a doctor how to do their job, or a solicitor, or an architect or an accountant. But just about everyone thinks "I could be a teacher if I wanted. It's not hard. I've just made different choices... but yeah, I could do that - I just don't choose to."  and THAT, to me, is the root of the disrespect for teaching.  Is the answer to make the academic requirements higher?  Maybe.  I'm an 'outstanding' teacher and I got a 2:2.  I genuinely don't think I'd be any better if I'd have been more disciplined and motivated when I was 18-21 years old at university.  I think the training to teach should be longer, three years of a degree then another three learning how to teach - a bit of child development and psychology, structured school placements (GTP and Teachfirst seem to be about throwing people with no experience right in at the deep end and making them responsible for real students' life chances). The diminishing of what it means to train as a teacher seems to be going in the wrong direction to me.  

The thing is, yes - the middle and upper classes disrespect teachers (not quite so much the working classes, IME) - and of course the kids do  You don't understand teenagers at all if you imagine they're ever going to respect us just because of our jobs...  but none of that needs to matter.  The job has enough reward without me needing praise for the nights i spend working straight through, or the care and effort and yes, money, I spend on my kids and trying to stop any of them falling through the cracks and treating them all like valuable individuals... The only reason that lack of respect matters is that it means we are the constant political football.

The middle and upper classes believe they know all about my job and how it could be done better.  So they make it their priority in every new government to change everything. They write about it in their newspapers. "Isn't it terrible? This education system that I'm filtering though my memories of what school was like a decade or more ago..."  "I could've been a teacher - still could, if I chose to... I know what needs to change."

There's nothing wrong with change in education. Change is why teaching is so much better than it was when I was at school.  But let's have change that comes from the best educationalists, the best teachers, the people who know - being listened to. Not from the ill-informed clamourings of politicians, journalists and the chattering classes.


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## spanglechick (Nov 1, 2012)

Athos said:


> I guess some people feel that a lot of teachers have drifted into it because they have so few alternatives. And that rewarding those who have first class degrees with bigger bursaries attracts people who could do something else but choose teaching i.e. candidates of a higher calibre.


do you think having a first makes someone a better teacher?


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## Athos (Nov 1, 2012)

spanglechick said:


> do you think having a first makes someone a better teacher?


 
No, not at all.  Nor do I believe what the idea that most teachers just drift into it because they can't do anything else - it strikes me as one of the toughtest jobs around.  However, it does appear to be a widely held perception.  and the one that underpins the supposed 'need' to attract a 'better' candidates to teaching.


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## kittyP (Nov 1, 2012)

Manter said:


> Private schools have always hired unqualified teachers- but that just means they hire who they like, not that they are bad- they ignore things like the maths GCSE pass rule


 
And it happens in normal state schools.


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## kittyP (Nov 1, 2012)

Athos said:


> I guess some people feel that a lot of teachers have drifted into it because they have so few alternatives. And that rewarding those who have first class degrees with bigger bursaries attracts people who could do something else but choose teaching i.e. candidates of a higher calibre.


 
But most people that have those kind of qualifications and are really capable and committed teachers are few and far between in my experience. I am generalising I know. 
Its the teachers that have studied to be teachers specifically or have come up through the ranks, people that never expected to be teachers but have been given a chance at something they didn't think they could have at the 6th form/uni end of education. They are often the people that make the best teachers. 

Unless you're talking about FE/AE.


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## kittyP (Nov 1, 2012)

spanglechick said:


> well - it also means they hire people with no training in *how* to teach. Which kind of implies that the *how* of teaching is somehow unimportant - which couldn't be further from the truth.
> 
> Teaching gets a kicking. Teachers get a kicking. Even on here, you notice that everyone assumes the worst.
> 
> ...


 
Here fucking here!!!
And don't get me started on what you have said and how that applies to SEN!!!


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## kittyP (Nov 1, 2012)

Athos said:


> No, not at all. Nor do I believe what the idea that most teachers just drift into it because they can't do anything else - it strikes me as one of the toughtest jobs around. However, it does appear to be a widely held *perception*. and the one that underpins the supposed 'need' to attract a 'better' candidates to teaching.


 
See the word in bold. 
It is a perception. 
It is not necessarily the truth. 
There may be a few exceptions to the rule but these days, people do not drift in to teaching because they don't know what else to do/can't do anything else.


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## Athos (Nov 1, 2012)

kittyP said:


> See the word in bold.
> It is a perception.
> It is not necessarily the truth.
> There may be a few exceptions to the rule but these days, people do not drift in to teaching because they don't know what else to do/can't do anything else.


 
I know.  That's why I explained that I don't agree with the perception, but it appears to me that it's wildly held and persistent.


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## kittyP (Nov 1, 2012)

Athos said:


> I know. That's why I explained that I don't agree with the perception, but it appears to me that it's wildly held and persistent.


Sorry. I am sleep deprived and ranty. 
Didn't mean to jump on you. 
I see that you didn't say that


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## wayward bob (Nov 1, 2012)

spanglechick said:


> People think they know about education because they went to school.


 
i think this pretty much sums it up. and not forgetting that teaching is a female-dominated profession, "women's work" still = lower pay, lower status.


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## treefrog (Nov 1, 2012)

@spanglechick I LOVE YOU.

It's half past ten at night and I'm just home. I left the house at half seven this morning. I had to learn to give a mihi (introduction) in te reo Maori for our young tamariki who have shown mana in their studies and were up for Maori achievement awards that I was helping to present. I'm from Scotland, but since coming here to teach I've had to become comfortable with basic te reo and learn greetings and protocol for about six different island nations in order to be a respected member of the school community. You don't need to do that working in most offices, even here in Manukau.

When you consider that teaching is the delivering of five hour-long presentations a day that have to appeal to the entire audience (none of what you see in professional lectures where half the audience are on facebook), where that audience has to remember and comprehend what you just taught them, that you have to account for all the factors that might stop your audience from paying attention to that presentation, that you have to know the audience's background, culture, learning needs and abilities, that you then have to test and mark them on their ability to remember the lectures you gave, and get that audience involved in sports, or drama, or music, and give up your spare time to do that for no extra pay, where in addition to being expected to produce these high-quality, tailored presentations five times EVERY day, you're also asked to read up on your subject, learn how to deliver better presentations, how to look after your audience's personal wellbeing, and (in NZ) LEARN ANOTHER LANGUAGE AND AT LEAST ONE OTHER CULTURE, and somehow retain your sanity and not punch the audience member who told you to go fuck yourself, teaching isn't something that allows room for passengers.


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## Athos (Nov 1, 2012)

kittyP said:


> Sorry. I am sleep deprived and ranty.
> Didn't mean to jump on you.
> I see that you didn't say that


 
No worries.  I guess it must be quite frustrating not to receive a fair share of society's esteem, given how difficult and important teaching is.  I think Bob's absolutely right that part of that lack of respect is because teaching is still considered womens work, and also because, as a society, we seem to regard anything that doesn't generate a profit as somehow less important.


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## kittyP (Nov 1, 2012)

Athos said:


> No worries. I guess it must be quite frustrating not to receive a fair share of society's esteem, given how difficult and important teaching is. I think Bob's absolutely right that part of that lack of respect is because teaching is still considered womens work, and also because, as a society, we seem to regard anything that doesn't generate a profit as somehow less important.


 
Just for the record I am not a teacher. 
It's complicated coz I have been off sick for a while but I am higher level LSA (learning support assistant) but specialise in behaviour management in SEN (special educational needs), mainly working with autistic teenagers over the last 10 years. 
My experience will have been very different from Spangles but I still feel her frustration and what she is saying.

SEN and primary is very much female dominated still but I think it is changing in mainstream secondarys.
Especially in London. I know a lot of male secondary teachers.
I had a lot of male teachers in secondary school but none in primary. 
Spangles may tell us differently though.


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## treefrog (Nov 1, 2012)

Athos said:


> No worries. I guess it must be quite frustrating not to receive a fair share of society's esteem, given how difficult and important teaching is. I think Bob's absolutely right that part of that lack of respect is because teaching is still considered womens work, and also because, as a society, we seem to regard anything that doesn't generate a profit as somehow less important.


 
Interesting wording there. Personally, I'd like to be able to do my job without reading something in the mainstream press every single day about how teachers are lazy, racist, greedy bastards who are out of touch with the real world. I'm doing this job to get esteem, I just want ignorant, self serving politicians and bean counters to get the hell out of my way.

I'd love to see the education minister come into my classroom and watch a lesson where kids involved in gangs and the sex trade ask me about how not to get pregnant or an STI and then tell me I'm out of touch with the real world.


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## Manter (Nov 1, 2012)

spanglechick said:


> well - it also means they hire people with no training in *how* to teach. Which kind of implies that the *how* of teaching is somehow unimportant - which couldn't be further from the truth.


 completely agree. but maybe there should be a 'smarter' way of learning the 'how' than having to jump through hoops like getting your  maths GCSE?



spanglechick said:


> Just because you went to school does not mean you know what happens there now.


 I wouldn't presume to say I did!  Just a passing observation



spanglechick said:


> People don't often presume to think they can tell a doctor how to do their job, or a solicitor, or an architect or an accountant. But just about everyone thinks "I could be a teacher if I wanted. It's not hard. I've just made different choices... but yeah, I could do that - I just don't choose to." and THAT, to me, is the root of the disrespect for teaching.


  People regularly tell me how to do my job or offer thought about how/why my industry could work differently. It doesn't really bother me (except when people are wildly wrong and a bit drunk when it gets boring) but my industry is pretty powerful and hasn't been under attack from external forces for years (well, parts have, but it is what we sign up for), whereas teaching feels like it has been blown by political and social winds for years. Also,lotsof middle classprofessionals domove into teaching- I know three made redundant in this downturn and one whose contract ended who have allmoved across into teaching. No idea whether they will be good or bad,but that doesleave a taste of 'if my career fails I'll become a teacher'.  Not right, but is a 'trend' amoung the chattering classes


----------



## spanglechick (Nov 1, 2012)

kittyP said:


> Just for the record I am not a teacher.
> It's complicated coz I have been off sick for a while but I am higher level LSA (learning support assistant) but specialise in behaviour management in SEN (special educational needs), mainly working with autistic teenagers over the last 10 years.
> My experience will have been very different from Spangles but I still feel her frustration and what she is saying.
> 
> ...


it's always been the case that primary has very few male teachers. at secondary it's more even, though there are slightly more women. in both secondary and primary, though, men are disproportionately represented at management level (deputies and heads).

i don't think there's much to say that any of that has changed over time.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 1, 2012)

Cloo said:


> Every now and then, I have considered going into teaching - retraining is probably not an option for me, but I was interested to find out that I could get a pretty sizeable bursary because I have a first class degree - almost twice as much as for someone with a 2:1
> 
> This seems like total BS to me, as my degree in no way guarantees me being a better teacher than someone who might have failed their degree completely. I assume it has mainly to do with the government's idea that teaching is a low-status job and by getting 'high performers' into it, that status will be raised.
> 
> ...


In my _social_ experience teachers and teaching have always been seen as rather high status - reasonably secure inside sit-down job with defined career path and benefits requiring a range of qualifications and work experience that would be an advantage if you decided to do something else.

I think your point about potential changes in perceived status through "general lowering of regard for authority" leading to teachers being challenged by authority may have something in it but maybe not for the reasons you seem to think. Parents today esp those from the poorer end of the w/c are bombarded with the message that they must take a role in their kids education if they want them to 'get on' lest the dreaded _poverty of aspiration _unfolds as it _naturally_ must.

Now, middle class families are better situated to to pressure or influence teachers and schools in a different way than w/c parents - through shared cultural norms and assumptions with many teachers, with disagreements or conflicts being expressed in a culturally agreed form that appears as reasonable and as demonstrating an interest in their kids education and welfare, whereas w/c parents not sharing these norms and having different historical relations to those in authority (and teachers are still seen as authority by many, part of why they are still perceived as not being low status in my experience) who take a similar interest can appear as 'aggressive' or pushy or having 'a poor attitude to teachers'. Of course there are some plain arsehole parents but surely not enough to cause a industry wide drop in social status?

This is a gap that educationalists have highlighted has existed historically between some pupils and some teachers (broad strokes here of course) and i can see why it might well exist between the same teachers and parents. Of course, with the squeeze on teaching and conditions mentioned throughout this thread this is probably something that is being moved away from through the resulting flattening of conditions.

(And please, don't anyone bother pointing out to me that the social perception i've experienced is wrong or that i'm saying all teachers are m/c and pick on w/c pupils. On the first i'm not suggesting that the social perception is correct, i'm answering the question about perceived status, and on the second i'm saying something different but concentrating only on the aspect that relates to a suggestion from another poster about why she sees as a drop in perceived social status - i'm not on about teaching or teachers, and certainly not attacking them).


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## kittyP (Nov 1, 2012)

treefrog said:


> @spanglechick I LOVE YOU.
> 
> It's half past ten at night and I'm just home. I left the house at half seven this morning. I had to learn to give a mihi (introduction) in te reo Maori for our young tamariki who have shown mana in their studies and were up for Maori achievement awards that I was helping to present. I'm from Scotland, but since coming here to teach I've had to become comfortable with basic te reo and learn greetings and protocol for about six different island nations in order to be a respected member of the school community. You don't need to do that working in most offices, even here in Manukau.
> 
> When you consider that teaching is the delivering of five hour-long presentations a day that have to appeal to the entire audience (none of what you see in professional lectures where half the audience are on facebook), where that audience has to remember and comprehend what you just taught them, that you have to account for all the factors that might stop your audience from paying attention to that presentation, that you have to know the audience's background, culture, learning needs and abilities, that you then have to test and mark them on their ability to remember the lectures you gave, and get that audience involved in sports, or drama, or music, and give up your spare time to do that for no extra pay, where in addition to being expected to produce these high-quality, tailored presentations five times EVERY day, you're also asked to read up on your subject, learn how to deliver better presentations, how to look after your audience's personal wellbeing, and (in NZ) LEARN ANOTHER LANGUAGE AND AT LEAST ONE OTHER CULTURE, and somehow retain your sanity and not punch the audience member who told you to go fuck yourself, teaching isn't something that allows room for passengers.


 
Again. Here fucking here!


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## kittyP (Nov 1, 2012)

Manter said:


> completely agree. but maybe there should be a 'smarter' way of learning the 'how' than having to jump through hoops like getting your maths GCSE?


 
But that has nothing to do with teachers. That is government policy and social expectation. You and I are all to blame for that. 
A lot of teachers I know hate the national curriculum, whilst being very aware of how shitty the Academy system can be for all concerned.


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## kittyP (Nov 1, 2012)

spanglechick said:


> it's always been the case that primary has very few male teachers. at secondary it's more even, though there are slightly more women. in both secondary and primary, though, men are disproportionately represented at management level (deputies and heads).
> 
> i don't think there's much to say that any of that has changed over time.


 
OK. I will take your opinion as my experience is very skewed.


----------



## wayward bob (Nov 1, 2012)

kittyP said:


> SEN and primary is very much female dominated still but I think it is changing in mainstream secondarys.


 
the figures i've seen are around 75% female 25% male across the profession.


----------



## Manter (Nov 1, 2012)

kittyP said:


> But that has nothing to do with teachers. That is government policy and social expectation. You and I are all to blame for that.
> A lot of teachers I know hate the national curriculum, whilst being very aware of how shitty the Academy system can be for all concerned.


Why is the academy system so shitty? I don't know much about them (all the news articles are a bit mad and ranty, on both sides, so I tend to skip them....)


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## kittyP (Nov 1, 2012)

wayward bob said:


> the figures i've seen are around 75% female 25% male across the profession.


 
What is that for? Across the whole profession?
Do the figures have anything for SEN?


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## kittyP (Nov 1, 2012)

Manter said:


> Why is the academy system so shitty? I don't know much about them (all the news articles are a bit mad and ranty, on both sides, so I tend to skip them....)


 
I am not saying the whole thing is definitely shitty all round, just that it can be and is in a lot of places. Not just for teaching but for society.
I can do this conversation but not right now. Sorry  . I am really tired and tbh my opinion may be biased due to personal working situation.

I am hoping Quimmy comes a long with a good video she posted on Facebook talking about the Academy system.


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## spanglechick (Nov 1, 2012)

Manter said:


> completely agree. but maybe there should be a 'smarter' way of learning the 'how' than having to jump through hoops like getting your maths GCSE?


thing is - if we, as a society are saying that a grade C in english and maths are the minimum standards o literacy and numeracy that we should accept to consider someone educated, if grade C in english and maths are how we judge and compare schools, if we are as teachers going to try and hammer home to the kids how critical those two grades are, then i'm sorry but I think we do have to say that teachers need them too.  

Really, it's a tiny thing to get hung up on.  I'd be far more concerned that private schools and academies are able to employ teachers with absolutely no training in how to teach, than showing concern that in most schools you are expected to show this minimum standard of maths and english.



Manter said:


> I wouldn't presume to say I did! Just a passing observation


 
The rest of my post was a response to the OP, not you, sorry.



Manter said:


> People regularly tell me how to do my job or offer thought about how/why my industry could work differently. It doesn't really bother me (except when people are wildly wrong and a bit drunk when it gets boring) but my industry is pretty powerful and hasn't been under attack from external forces for years (well, parts have, but it is what we sign up for), whereas teaching feels like it has been blown by political and social winds for years. Also,lotsof middle classprofessionals domove into teaching- I know three made redundant in this downturn and one whose contract ended who have allmoved across into teaching. No idea whether they will be good or bad,but that doesleave a taste of 'if my career fails I'll become a teacher'. Not right, but is a 'trend' amoung the chattering classes


 
Unless you tell us what sector this is, I can't really discuss the points you've made. I'll have to take your word for it.  But I don't think we're disagreeing about anything very much.

But sure, lots of people pontificate about how jobs can be done - but i'd say not with the frequency, not with the precision, and not with the effect of actually changing the way that job is done as effects teaching.

And yes, some people do hold teaching as a kind if contingency plan - see the OP. I don't have a problem with people who don't have a burning ambition to teach, I never did... But they soon discover the difference between thinking they know what it means to be a good teacher, and actually being a good teacher.  Teaching has a horrific burnout rate after three years. Something that's worsening all the time. Lots of people try teaching and then say 'fuck this'.


----------



## spanglechick (Nov 1, 2012)

Manter said:


> Why is the academy system so shitty? I don't know much about them (all the news articles are a bit mad and ranty, on both sides, so I tend to skip them....)


I have to be quite careful as I work for an academy. Umm.  Ok - general points:

the government and union negotiated document 'teachers pay and conditions' is not respected by academies
academies do not have to teach the national curriculum, this means they do not have to teach evolution, a breadth of religious education etc.
academies can select their students on ability - in practice few do, as to do that you need to be oversubscribed. academies generally take over failing schools and these schools take many years to shake off their reputations - but when they are oversubscribed they can, in effect, become grammar schools.
academies have a reputation for poor records on staff turnover, numbers of staff on sick leave for stress-related-illness etc.
academies have a reputation for complaints of bullying, unreasonable workload, poor staff development etc.
schools are being forced to become academies
all new schools must be academies (or free schools which is harebrained nutjobbery of the highest order).


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## kittyP (Nov 1, 2012)

spanglechick said:


> And yes, some people do hold teaching as a kind if contingency plan - see the OP. I don't have a problem with people who don't have a burning ambition to teach, I never did... But they soon discover the difference between thinking they know what it means to be a good teacher, and actually being a good teacher. Teaching has a horrific burnout rate after three years. Something that's worsening all the time. Lots of people try teaching and then say 'fuck this'.


 
Just because you come to teaching later in your career does not necessaries mean that you will suck at it either. (I know you were not saying this spangles)

I have seen teachers go through the full shabang of training. It was their life ambition and at the end of the day they ended up sucking at it. 

And I have seen people that have come to it later in their lives. Their degrees and other jobs had nothing to do with education and they have ended up being truly inspirational amazing teachers. 

Take nursing. 
If a 35 year old woman/man, who has previously worked as a council clerk, suddenly decides that they want to retrain as MH nurse or midwife, we don't in the main part say, "well that's just because they failed at at being a council clerk. They have nothing else to do".... Do we? 
We generally say they have found their vocation. 
Just because things use to be a certain way in the past, does not mean that all of a sudden loads of people are deciding to take the hard path to a (lets face it not that well paid) vocational job JUST because they had nothing better to do...?


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## phildwyer (Nov 1, 2012)

I always thought that the one they called Ernesto Lynch must be an absolutely brilliant teacher.


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## sim667 (Nov 1, 2012)

punchdrunkme said:


> A friend of mine is a poet and a teacher. Here's a spoken word piece of his about the status of teachers which really made me smile.




He's the guy that went up against one of his students in a rap battle isnt he? Poor kid never thought he'd get pwned by an english teacher.


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## purenarcotic (Nov 1, 2012)

So much of what has been said here I hear said about social work too, especially the 'I could do that, you just need to do x y z'.  It is infuriating.


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## kittyP (Nov 1, 2012)

spanglechick said:


> I have to be quite careful as I work for an academy. Umm. Ok - general points:
> 
> the government and union negotiated document 'teachers pay and conditions' is not respected by academies
> academies do not have to teach the national curriculum, this means they do not have to teach evolution, a breadth of religious education etc.
> ...


 
This for me is a biggie. 

I disagree with the academy system but, my school became an academy over the summer and there are a lot of reasons it would be really good for us. 
For some stupid reason, even though we are a huge secondary, we have always been funded as a primary (I don't know if this is standard for SEN secondarys) including things like school dinners, equipment for larger students, 6'5" 16 year old - non verbal - incontinent - aggressive young men needing more staff than they did when they were 5' -8 year olds (who wudda thunk it  ). 
Same student as described we can ignore the national curriculum and stop (not exclusively mind) trying to teach them for the 2nd year about the Tudors or the rules of cricket. 
We can concentrate on sensory experience, communication and getting the most out of life for them. 
We couldn't do that before. 

But and it's a big but. All the things that Spangles said still apply. 
There are students that I have worked with that have been excluded from other schools and we have worked wonders with them. As an academy the school is not obliged to give them a chance any more. 

It is quite complex. 

Come on quimmy


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## Belushi (Nov 1, 2012)

purenarcotic said:


> So much of what has been said here I hear said about social work too, especially the 'I could do that, you just need to do x y z'. It is infuriating.


 
Exactly what I was just thinking


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## spanglechick (Nov 1, 2012)

kittyP said:


> Just because you come to teaching later in your career does not necessaries mean that you will suck at it either. (I know you were not saying this spangles)
> 
> I have seen teachers go through the full shabang of training. It was their life ambition and at the end of the day they ended up sucking at it.
> 
> ...


oh heavens yes!  sorry - i didn't mean to say that people who drift into teaching at any age will automatically be bad!


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## kittyP (Nov 1, 2012)

sim667 said:


> He's the guy that went up against one of his students in a rap battle isnt he? Poor kid never thought he'd get pwned by an english teacher.




I was looking for that video. 
Is that the same teacher?


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## spanglechick (Nov 1, 2012)

purenarcotic said:


> So much of what has been said here I hear said about social work too, especially the 'I could do that, you just need to do x y z'. It is infuriating.


yes - even less respect than teaching.


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## Red Cat (Nov 1, 2012)

spanglechick said:


> People think they know about education because they went to school.


 
Education is something that people have a relationship to in many ways though. Sure, we have our own histories, but our kids go to nursery, school, we go to adult ed. classes, university, some people home educate. Education doesn't just take place in classrooms of 30 kids in large institutions.


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## Manter (Nov 1, 2012)

spanglechick said:


> Unless you tell us what sector this is, I can't really discuss the points you've made. I'll have to take your word for it. But I don't think we're disagreeing about anything very much.
> .


 I'm a consultant in healthcare and lifesciences (pharmaceuticals). So I am regularly told that consultants are ruining britain,or that drug firms are monsters. Both quite possibly true...   but agree, teaching gets a more sustained battering and it affects what you are expcted to do, in a way it doesn't in my industry


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## Red Cat (Nov 1, 2012)

purenarcotic said:


> So much of what has been said here I hear said about social work too, especially the 'I could do that, you just need to do x y z'. It is infuriating.


 
You can say the same for nursing. And parenting. 

I wonder if these things are linked


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## kittyP (Nov 1, 2012)

spanglechick said:


> oh heavens yes! sorry - i didn't mean to say that people who drift into teaching at any age will automatically be bad!


 
No no I know you didn't honey  I was just ranting


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## purenarcotic (Nov 1, 2012)

spanglechick said:


> yes - even less respect than teaching.


 
Because we're all kiddie snatchers.  Clearly.


----------



## kittyP (Nov 1, 2012)

Red Cat said:


> Education is something that people have a relationship in many ways though. Sure, we have our own histories, but our kids go to nursery, school, we go to adult ed. classes, university, some people home educate. Education doesn't just take place in classrooms of 30 kids in large institutions.


 
This is also a valid point. 
Education (well and health) is something people are often forced in to interacting with when their own prior experiences were not positive and very possibly damaging or frightening.


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## purenarcotic (Nov 1, 2012)

Red Cat said:


> You can say the same for nursing. And parenting.
> 
> I wonder if these things are linked


 
They're all typically 'feminine' professions which may be significant.


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## Crispy (Nov 1, 2012)

"low status" ?
I can't think of many professionals I admire more.

EDIT: Astronauts, coastguards, paramedics, social workers.


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## kittyP (Nov 1, 2012)

Red Cat said:


> You can say the same for nursing. And parenting.
> 
> I wonder if these things are linked


 
They are all things that the majority of us are forced to interact with. 
Often at times when we are vulnerable and reticent to do so.


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## Red Cat (Nov 1, 2012)

purenarcotic said:


> They're all typically 'feminine' professions which may be significant.


 
That was an ironic shock smiley.


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## kittyP (Nov 1, 2012)

Crispy said:


> "low status" ?
> I can't think of many professionals I admire more.


 
That's because you are decent bloke


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## sim667 (Nov 1, 2012)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I doubt it. But I do like the idea of academically able teachers in later years, definitely at sixth-form level.


 
I dont particularly agree, I team teach sixth form A-level photography, aswell as level 3, and support level 2 and level 3 (other subjects areas where they have to undertake photography).

We consistently get A-C grades at both A2 and AS and have been informed our level 3 photography students are of a very high calibre when they reach university. Out of the 5 of us that teach, only 2 of us have got degrees in photography, 1 has a degree in illustration, one has just started her degree (she has 5 years experience as a darkroom printer), and the other has 8 years or so experience as a darkroom printer, has now been teaching for 10+ years and has no degree. I think when you start getting to 16+ and university age than a good mix of professional experience and academic achievement is far more important than having 1st's in degrees and masters. A lot of the academically high status people I've met through teaching have been total morons when it comes to real world situations and handling classes, and this counts for a lot of management in establishments, who are busy setting your CPD framework and undertaking teacher quality observations, but havent seet foot in front of a class as a teacher for over 10 years. Infact I've got an observation at work with the guy who ran my teacher training qualification that I dropped out of because his level of teaching and organisation was so bad it was like a carry on film.

A lot of people undermine teachers, and I get this with my best mates dad (who regardless of me asking, cant really explain what he does for a living), he consistently complains that I as a teacher have an easy time of it, because we simply drift in and out of classes, setting students the odd task. He forgets however about the prep, the cpd framework, the paperwork, the pastoral elements, the issues surrounding funding leading to lack of facilities and materials. I think he also has a bee in his bonnet because I 'only teach photography', but I'd happily put one of my top students from level 3 up against someone from the top end of a level 3 business course for a job interview, and I reckon mine would have a more rounded skillset for most jobs (except a proper 'business' job, but then lets be honest, a level 3 business student probably wouldnt stand a chance for one of those either).


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## sim667 (Nov 1, 2012)

kittyP said:


> I was looking for that video.
> Is that the same teacher?


 
Yip

He's from the dead poets society (i think)


----------



## purenarcotic (Nov 1, 2012)

Red Cat said:


> That was an ironic shock smiley.


 
Oh, I see. Yes.


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## kittyP (Nov 1, 2012)

sim667 said:


> Yip
> 
> He's from the dead poets society (i think)


 
He is brilliant. 
Although, am I right in thinking when he did the face off with the young guy, he had left teaching?


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## kittyP (Nov 1, 2012)

TBH I cannot remember the really intricacies of the video but I remember it being quite enlightening.
Thanks to Quimmy.

http://vimeo.com/user11514759/henrystewart


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## spanglechick (Nov 1, 2012)

Red Cat said:


> Education is something that people have a relationship to in many ways though. Sure, we have our own histories, but our kids go to nursery, school, we go to adult ed. classes, university, some people home educate. Education doesn't just take place in classrooms of 30 kids in large institutions.


of course, and i was using the word 'education' sloppily to refer to teaching - and probably specifically secondary-level teaching, as that's where our own memories of being at school are clear and prolonged.

the op is about the perception of teachers, not education as a holistic concept - and i was responding to the perception of teachers.


----------



## spanglechick (Nov 1, 2012)

kittyP said:


> TBH I cannot remember the really intricacies of the video but I remember it being quite enlightening.
> Thanks to Quimmy.
> 
> http://vimeo.com/user11514759/henrystewart


to be entirely fair, s i said - most academies were failing schools with difficult cohorts. many are also very new.  you'd need more sophisticated data to make a meaningful comparison. say the percentage of students making 4 levels of progress (level 4 in year six > grade B at gcse) comparing schools to academies which have been academies for 2 years or more.


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## kittyP (Nov 1, 2012)

spanglechick said:


> of course, and i was using the word 'education' sloppily to refer to teaching - and probably specifically secondary-level teaching, as that's where our own memories of being at school are clear and prolonged.
> 
> the op is about the perception of teachers, not education as a holistic concept - and i was responding to the perception of teachers.


 
This is what I was referring to earlier. 
We came across health care professionals (I am excluding most Drs) throughout our child hoods and will continue to throughout our lives. Our children and families have and will. 
But when someone retrains as a nurse it does not carry the same stigma as someone retraining as teacher.


----------



## kittyP (Nov 1, 2012)

spanglechick said:


> to be entirely fair, s i said - most academies were failing schools with difficult cohorts. many are also very new. you'd need more sophisticated data to make a meaningful comparison. say the percentage of students making 4 levels of progress (level 4 in year six > grade B at gcse) comparing schools to academies which have been academies for 2 years or more.


 
I thought his data comparison was reasonably fair. 
Especially as academies are expected to perform better over all. 
I do however take your point.


----------



## Thora (Nov 1, 2012)

spanglechick said:


> I have to be quite careful as I work for an academy. Umm. Ok - general points:
> 
> the government and union negotiated document 'teachers pay and conditions' is not respected by academies
> academies do not have to teach the national curriculum, this means they do not have to teach evolution, a breadth of religious education etc.
> ...


The school I am governor at is becoming an academy in the new year... I think it's going to be very hard on the staff.


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## sim667 (Nov 1, 2012)

kittyP said:


> He is brilliant.
> Although, am I right in thinking when he did the face off with the young guy, he had left teaching?


 
With some of the comments he makes about the kid and his mum, I hope so


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## kittyP (Nov 1, 2012)

sim667 said:


> With some of the comments he makes about the kid and his mum, I hope so


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## littlebabyjesus (Nov 1, 2012)

kittyP said:


> But when someone retrains as a nurse it does not carry the same stigma as someone retraining as teacher.


You really think it has a stigma attached?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 1, 2012)

sim667 said:


> We consistently get A-C grades at both A2 and AS and have been informed our level 3 photography students are of a very high calibre when they reach university. Out of the 5 of us that teach, only 2 of us have got degrees in photography, 1 has a degree in illustration, one has just started her degree (she has 5 years experience as a darkroom printer), and the other has 8 years or so experience as a darkroom printer, has now been teaching for 10+ years and has no degree. I think when you start getting to 16+ and university age than a good mix of professional experience and academic achievement is far more important than having 1st's in degrees and masters. A lot of the academically high status people I've met through teaching have been total morons when it comes to real world situations and handling classes, and this counts for a lot of management in establishments, who are busy setting your CPD framework and undertaking teacher quality observations, but havent seet foot in front of a class as a teacher for over 10 years. Infact I've got an observation at work with the guy who ran my teacher training qualification that I dropped out of because his level of teaching and organisation was so bad it was like a carry on film.


Fair enough. Depends on the subject a little bit. If you're teaching maths or physics, say, professional experience will be less relevant than grasp of the subject as an academic discipline.

You make a good point about having a mix of experience, though. I sometimes think being 22 or 23 is rather young to be teaching teenagers. Going off and doing something else then coming to teaching aged 30, say, has a lot to commend it.


----------



## kittyP (Nov 1, 2012)

littlebabyjesus said:


> You really think it has a stigma attached?


 
A lot of the time yes.


----------



## sim667 (Nov 1, 2012)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Fair enough. Depends on the subject a little bit. If you're teaching maths or physics, say, professional experience will be less relevant than grasp of the subject as an academic discipline.
> 
> You make a good point about having a mix of experience, though. I sometimes think being 22 or 23 is rather young to be teaching teenagers. Going off and doing something else then coming to teaching aged 30, say, has a lot to commend it.


 
I'd just started when I was 22/23...... and you're right it was a bit tough, but I was only teaching 4.5 hours a week........ Its very hard to realise you cant keep giving them extensions etc, and you do need to cut dead weight loose if they really aren't showing any interested. I guess I was a college technician at 16 and carried that all the way on through to the end of my degree, meaning by the time I'd finished uni, I already had done the job most photography students would do after graduation (I did work as a photographer and photography assistant for 3 years whilst teaching too, and still do to be honest, so i've got some work experience too).

I've upped my game a lot now, and have a reputation for being firm but fair, but quite a tough marker........ Apparently in my personal life its become more evident im a teacher, despite the fact I still go to work in hoodies and skate shoes. 


Totally agree with it being dependent on the subject, I do teach a subject which encourages experimentation and self development, which I guess makes it less necessary to have the strict rules of academia..... It makes it a hard one to mark though, as there's no real 'right or wrong' answers.


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## littlebabyjesus (Nov 1, 2012)

kittyP said:


> A lot of the time yes.


That's really sad. Who are these people looking down on teachers?

Sticking to the same 'career' your whole life is the strange choice, in many ways. Many people get pretty stale and jaded in their jobs after a decade or so, ime, and if they're in a 'career', they usually end up in some kind of management position shuffling paper around. Far better to bail out when you feel that happening and become a teacher!


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## kittyP (Nov 1, 2012)

littlebabyjesus said:


> That's really sad. Who are these people looking down on teachers?
> 
> Sticking to the same 'career' your whole life is the strange choice, in many ways. Many people get pretty stale and jaded in their jobs after a decade or so, ime, and if they're in a 'career', they usually end up in some kind of management position shuffling paper around. Far better to bail out when you feel that happening and become a teacher!


 
The media and a lot of the population of this county

Most teachers do not just teach for the rest of their lives.


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## littlebabyjesus (Nov 1, 2012)

kittyP said:


> Most teachers do not just teach for the rest of their lives.


Well this is the other aspect. I acknowledge that I was at school many years ago now and things have changed a lot for the better, but I remember a few teachers at my school who'd been teaching for a long time and were seriously jaded. Doing _any_ job for 40+ years is likely to do that to you, I'd have thought.


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## kittyP (Nov 1, 2012)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Well this is the other aspect. I acknowledge that I was at school many years ago now and things have changed a lot for the better, but I remember a few teachers at my school who'd been teaching for a long time and were seriously jaded. Doing _any_ job for 40+ years is likely to do that to you, I'd have thought.


 
Ys but things have changed. In most places anyway.


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## littlebabyjesus (Nov 1, 2012)

kittyP said:


> Ys but things have changed. In most places anyway.


Yeah. I also did have teachers who were still enthusiastic. Seems to me that it's not too hard to be a bad teacher, but it is very hard to be a really good teacher. And it is a job in which it's really important to do it well. It matters. For that alone, it gets top status for me.


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## kittyP (Nov 1, 2012)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Yeah. I also did have teachers who were still enthusiastic. Seems to me that it's not too hard to be a bad teacher, but it is very hard to be a really good teacher. And it is a job in which it's really important to do it well. It matters. For that alone, it gets top status for me.


 
Totally!!!


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## spanglechick (Nov 1, 2012)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Well this is the other aspect. I acknowledge that I was at school many years ago now and things have changed a lot for the better, but I remember a few teachers at my school who'd been teaching for a long time and were seriously jaded. Doing _any_ job for 40+ years is likely to do that to you, I'd have thought.


it's very hard to leave.  first time round I taught for three years and then left.  I applied for over 120 jobs (not many by today's standards, but this was the boomtime of 1999) - in the end i got the 2nd job i interviewed for, which was to manage multiplex cinemas for Virgin, who had a proactive policy of interviewing candidates from 'outside the box'.  I spoke to various people about it over the following years in business, and the overwhelming answer was that they wouldn't consider a teacher for a non-teaching role as they believed they would be institutionalised with no transferable skills.


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## Cloo (Nov 1, 2012)

That's interesting and sad that teachers would be considered so lacking in versatility. I'm not sure there are many better crisis managers, for example, than a good teacher!


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## littlebabyjesus (Nov 1, 2012)

sim667 said:


> Apparently in my personal life its become more evident im a teacher,


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## Manter (Nov 1, 2012)

spanglechick said:


> I have to be quite careful as I work for an academy. Umm. Ok - general points:
> 
> the government and union negotiated document 'teachers pay and conditions' is not respected by academies
> academies do not have to teach the national curriculum, this means they do not have to teach evolution, a breadth of religious education etc.
> ...


lots of that sounds like crappy implementation rather than the academies being bad per se? Stress and turnover is instand warning signal for bad management, IM (professional) O

(E2a evolution, religious thing loopy, clearly)


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## littlebabyjesus (Nov 1, 2012)

> they do not have to teach evolution


I missed this bit. WT suffering F?


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## Ms Ordinary (Nov 1, 2012)

spanglechick said:


> it's very hard to leave. first time round I taught for three years and then left. I applied for over 120 jobs (not many by today's standards, but this was the boomtime of 1999) - in the end i got the 2nd job i interviewed for, which was to manage multiplex cinemas for Virgin, who had a proactive policy of interviewing candidates from 'outside the box'. *I spoke to various people about it over the following years in business, and the overwhelming answer was that they wouldn't consider a teacher for a non-teaching role as they believed they would be institutionalised with no transferable skills*.


 
That's both shocking and completely believable - I think it would be exactly that attitude if an ex-teacher applied where I work (very traditional & male dominated) - and speaks volumes about the status that teachers are given.
Personally, I'm constantly astounded by the range of personal & professional skills that teachers seem to have, before you even start on the whole standing up & teaching classrooms full of children aspect of it.


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## _angel_ (Nov 1, 2012)

Ms Ordinary said:


> That's both shocking and completely believable - I think it would be exactly that attitude if an ex-teacher applied where I work (very traditional & male dominated) - and speaks volumes about the status that teachers are given.
> Personally, I'm constantly astounded by the range of personal & professional skills that teachers seem to have, before you even start on the whole standing up & teaching classrooms full of children aspect of it.


It's similar to anyone who has done anything in a 'caring' profession or worse still done the caring for no money at all. That's why carers/ stay at home parents get ignored by employers when they want to go back (with a few exceptions).


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## kittyP (Nov 1, 2012)

Ms Ordinary said:


> That's both shocking and completely believable - I think it would be exactly that attitude if an ex-teacher applied where I work (very traditional & male dominated) - and speaks volumes about the status that teachers are given.
> Personally, I'm constantly astounded by the range of personal & professional skills that teachers seem to have, before you even start on the whole standing up & teaching classrooms full of children aspect of it.


 
Like a said to Crispy. You are a decent person though. 
So many people I come across do not think like you are describing (imhe anyway).


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## spanglechick (Nov 1, 2012)

Manter said:


> lots of that sounds like crappy implementation rather than the academies being bad per se? Stress and turnover is instand warning signal for bad management, IM (professional) O
> 
> (E2a evolution, religious thing loopy, clearly)


well it is - and of course crappy management is not the preserve of the academy system.  but academies tend to foster it. high staff turnover and teachers on sick is seen as a good thing.  the new chief inspector of schools, an ex academy head, said in his first speech to headteachers: "If anyone says to you that 'staff morale is at an all-time low' you know you are doing something right."

It is seen that high staff turnover etc is sorting the wheat from the chaff.  I have been at my academy for just over 5 years, and i am one of the longest standing members of teaching staff. at 38 years old i am also one of the very oldest.  Neither of those things are good.  

Academies apply business methodologies to drive up standards, but they aren't subject to the checks and balances of business.  they don't pay to train staff who then leave the profession, there is no accountability in dealings with other stakeholders who are having to cope with employees stretched to breaking point.  were the transferable jobs market more viable there would be massive staff shortages as most of my colleagues would have left the profession for good (apart from in certain subjects such as physics, there is now a glut of teachers, despite the numbers burning out. Since they introduced bursaries to train in the late 90s (too late for me!) the numbers going into teaching have been high).

That might sound contradictory - i'll try to be clearer.  Shedloads of people train as teachers. Many leave soon after, which is viable if you're not being paid much and especially if you're younger. Older, better paid teachers - though too young to take early retirement or at least downshift their job because the kids have left home / the mortgage is paid - would like to leave but can't because they can't afford/won't be considered for an entry-level position. They are forced to stay in the profession, though many end up on sick leave. 

In non-academies this is somewhat ameliorated by the strong union presence defending workload and conditions.


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## kebabking (Nov 1, 2012)

i don't class teaching as 'low status', however, i can understand how individual teachers can damage the reputation of teaching.

i will say from the outset that i'm married to a primary school teacher. she consistantly gets 'outstandings' in her OFSTED inspections, as well as her normal observations, she's the school SENCO (amongst half-a-dozen extra roles that i wouldn't have known existed) and general 'good egg' and the SMT's 'go-to girl'. i'm also fully aware of quite how much outside class work she does. she is, in my mind, both an excellent teacher, and an excellent ambassador for teaching.

however, of the 8 teachers at my wifes school, 3 are crap, and not people you'd want teaching your kids. teacher number one can't spell - as in, genuinely can't spell normal words like 'certificate' 'weather' or 'treasury', but far worse, doesn't know that she can't spell, and just whacks miss-spelt words up on the wall for all to see without checking. in conversation her grammer is appalling - she says 'we was' all the time, amongst other transgressions, and just fails to comes across as having any kind of education.

teacher number two is both incompetent and chaotic - her gradings (the 1b/2a/3c etc..) have all been wrong for the last 3 years, she rarely does planning (and when she does it has my wifes name at the top (if you're going to rip off someone elses work, at least have the manners to try and make it look like yours...), homework is often unmarked, and on a recent class trip which she was supposed to lead, she failed to do the risk assessment, leading to the trip being cancelled.

teacher number three, who happens to be the headteacher, turns out to have appalling management skills, and in no way comes across as 'professional', however you might like to descibe it. if a parent met her in the school grounds, there is no chance that the parent would think 'oh, this is obviously someone educated to post-graduate level, with experience, bearing, confidence and drive'. they would, to be incredibly snobbish, think that she was either a dinner lady, or a cleaner, or more likely, a tramp who'd wandered in looking for somewhere warm. she is inarticulate, badly dressed, and pretty shambolic.

the high status with which the public percieved teachers 'back in the day', was to a large degree (imv), because teachers looked and acted, like 'high status' professionals. they could spell, speak, and not least, they dressed like 'serious people'.

teachers can - and should - blame successive governments for undermining them, but they should also, imv, take a good hard look at some of the people they have 'let in' to the profession, and to the way a significant proportion of them deport themselves while at work. 

/victorian dad mode off/


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## Manter (Nov 1, 2012)

spanglechick said:


> : "If anyone says to you that 'staff morale is at an all-time low' you know you are doing something right."


that flies in the face of every management theory I have ever read....  that is quite entertainingly bonkers...  except its real life so its really, really sad


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## cesare (Nov 1, 2012)

Spangles, what's the reason for not having a strong union presence in academies? (Apologies in advance if I've mistakenly inferred that from your post).


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## Ms Ordinary (Nov 1, 2012)

I think most of the people I work with do have respect for teachers FWIW - would mostly be polite and deferential to their own children's teachers, for instance.  But they wouldn't consider them employable or able to perform under the stresses of a business environment, ludicrous as that sounds to anyone whose heard or read teachers describing what they actually do.


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## spanglechick (Nov 1, 2012)

cesare said:


> Spangles, what's the reason for not having a strong union presence in academies? (Apologies in advance if I've mistakenly inferred that from your post).


i have to be careful with specifics, but in generality, teachers at academies have signed contracts which do not fully support the teachers pay and conditions govt document.  the traditional strength of the teaching unions relies on it being able to say, on a nationwide level "you cannot ask me to do that - look at what the government has agreed is within my job role".  it' much harder to bring cases on a case by case basis, proving individual malpractice by senior mgt where that document is no longer relevant.  the unions do have a dedicated staff to oversee what happens in academies, but are there under sufferance, and to be very careful with my words here, at least one local NUT rep has been banned from the site of all of a certain group of academies, for reasons unclear.


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## sim667 (Nov 1, 2012)

essentially academies = wankers to staff.

Just to spangles doesnt have to say it


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## cesare (Nov 1, 2012)

spanglechick said:


> i have to be careful with specifics, but in generality, teachers at academies have signed contracts which do not fully support the teachers pay and conditions govt document.  the traditional strength of the teaching unions relies on it being able to say, on a nationwide level "you cannot ask me to do that - look at what the government has agreed is within my job role".  it' much harder to bring cases on a case by case basis, proving individual malpractice by senior mgt where that document is no longer relevant.  the unions do have a dedicated staff to oversee what happens in academies, but are there under sufferance, and to be very careful with my words here, at least one local NUT rep has been banned from the site of all of a certain group of academies, for reasons unclear.


I don't want to put you in a difficult position, sorry. Just an observation, then ... that the NUT needs to reorganise to fully support academy staff; academies are on thin ice if they take (even informal) action against people carrying out TU activities; and that there are many unions and also the possibility of self organising.


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## oryx (Nov 1, 2012)

spanglechick said:


> high staff turnover and teachers on sick is seen as a good thing. the new chief inspector of schools, an ex academy head, said in his first speech to headteachers: "If anyone says to you that 'staff morale is at an all-time low' you know you are doing something right."


 
That's truly, utterly appalling.


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## spanglechick (Nov 1, 2012)

Ms Ordinary said:


> I think most of the people I work with do have respect for teachers FWIW - would mostly be polite and deferential to their own children's teachers, for instance. But they wouldn't consider them employable or able to perform under the stresses of a business environment, ludicrous as that sounds to anyone whose heard or read teachers describing what they actually do.


and although that's not news to me - it was me who raised it! - reading that makes me feel horribly trapped, and physically sick.


the thing is, i love what i do. I'm - not going to be modest here - an exceptional teacher making a genuine difference to kids, some of whom value what i do because it genuinely adds to and shapes their sense of happiness, self-worth and identity.  I provide training for my peers.  I don't think i'm badly recompensed,  though I would like to work something closer to a fifty hour week which I think would be more fair for my income level.  That said, as an hourly rate it compares very well with lots of other difficult and stressful jobs.  I worry about having to be in the classroom til I'm 68, but for now, to quote Miss Brodie "I am in my prime"...  and yet it is with desperation that I search for ways out. The scrutiny and atmosphere of presumed incompetence, that *they* want to keep springing inspections and checks on me until they manage to catch me out - at which point my track record will count for nothing...  this makes me sick with anxiety and unable to just be good at what i know i am good at.  The thought of having a meeting with  the head reduces me to tears.  I have seen so many colleagues, experienced and wise - and also young, bright kids with firsts and boundless energy, destroyed and driven out of their vocation.  I know it could be me next. I cannot face another 30 years of waiting for the sword to fall. The thought of that has made my throat constrict and my eyes mist over.


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## spanglechick (Nov 1, 2012)

Manter said:


> that flies in the face of every management theory I have ever read.... that is quite entertainingly bonkers... except its real life so its really, really sad





oryx said:


> That's truly, utterly appalling.


read more:http://m.guardian.co.uk/education/2...ls-michael-wilshaw?cat=education&type=article


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## Ms Ordinary (Nov 1, 2012)




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## Manter (Nov 1, 2012)

spanglechick said:


> and although that's not news to me - it was me who raised it! - reading that makes me feel horribly trapped, and physically sick.
> 
> 
> the thing is, i love what i do. I'm - not going to be modest here - an exceptional teacher making a genuine difference to kids, some of whom value what i do because it genuinely adds to and shapes their sense of happiness, self-worth and identity.  I provide training for my peers.  I don't think i'm badly recompensed,  though I would like to work something closer to a fifty hour week which I think would be more fair for my income level.  That said, as an hourly rate it compares very well with lots of other difficult and stressful jobs.  I worry about having to be in the classroom til I'm 68, but for now, to quote Miss Brodie "I am in my prime"...  and yet it is with desperation that I search for ways out. The scrutiny and atmosphere of presumed incompetence, that *they* want to keep springing inspections and checks on me until they manage to catch me out - at which point my track record will count for nothing...  this makes me sick with anxiety and unable to just be good at what i know i am good at.  The thought of having a meeting with  the head reduces me to tears.  I have seen so many colleagues, experienced and wise - and also young, bright kids with firsts and boundless energy, destroyed and driven out of their vocation.  I know it could be me next. I cannot face another 30 years of waiting for the sword to fall. The thought of that has made my throat constrict and my eyes mist over.


If you feel like that, you need to get out for your own sanity. There are other things you can do- there are routes out. Instant thoughts would be HE, FE, AE, but also loads of jobs in industry. We have an ex teacher in our place and while I wouldn't recommend consulting for anyone looking for a 50 hour week, it does prove there are other jobs you could do....


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## Orang Utan (Nov 1, 2012)

Fuck, wish I hadn't looked at this thread...


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## spanglechick (Nov 1, 2012)

Manter said:


> If you feel like that, you need to get out for your own sanity. There are other things you can do- there are routes out. Instant thoughts would be HE, FE, AE, but also loads of jobs in industry. We have an ex teacher in our place and while I wouldn't recommend consulting for anyone looking for a 50 hour week, it does prove there are other jobs you could do....


i have a mortgage to pay. ultimately it is money, isn't it?  fe and ae are usually part time and often worse paid, and i don't have a masters so HE is out.  My oldest and best friend works in corporate training and even she said she could only start me on just over half of my current salary. Arts education would only take me as an entry-level role. 22k if i was lucky.

I do look, am constantly thinking, but these are also difficult times. i am not optimistic.


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## spanglechick (Nov 1, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> Fuck, wish I hadn't looked at this thread...


sorry love.  fwiw - not all teachers feel quite as bad as me. i do work somewhere especially horrid.


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## Manter (Nov 1, 2012)

spanglechick said:


> i have a mortgage to pay. ultimately it is money, isn't it?  fe and ae are usually part time and often worse paid, and i don't have a masters so HE is out.  My oldest and best friend works in corporate training and even she said she could only start me on just over half of my current salary. Arts education would only take me as an entry-level role. 22k if i was lucky.
> 
> I do look, am constantly thinking, but these are also difficult times. i am not optimistic.


Some of the HR/training consultancies may be worth a punt. They will have a wider view of what is out there...


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## Ms Ordinary (Nov 1, 2012)

spanglechick said:


> and although that's not news to me - it was me who raised it! - reading that makes me feel horribly trapped, and physically sick.


 
To clarify slightly, when I said 'not employable' I meant to do what they do, not what I do.
They'd consider anybody above the level of bimbling fool capable of doing what they employ me to do.
But they consider their profession to be fairly macho & robust & stressy, and I suspect you (and most good teachers) could leave them standing when it comes to any of that.


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## cesare (Nov 1, 2012)

Manter said:


> Some of the HR/training consultancies may be worth a punt. They will have a wider view of what is out there...


Guess what happens to training budgets in economic recession?


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## Manter (Nov 1, 2012)

cesare said:


> Guess what happens to training budgets in economic recession?


Not necessarily. I know lots of big firms hiring in support functions- public sector and SMEs shut down support functions, and some of the big boys who are in trouble, but for lots of the big boys the recession is essentially over


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## cesare (Nov 1, 2012)

Manter said:


> Not necessarily. I know lots of big firms hiring in support functions- public sector and SMEs shut down support functions, and some of the big boys who are in trouble, but for lots of the big boys the recession is essentially over


Aye  Then factor in how many HR/training people on market as a result of cuts/economic shrinkage, and the big boys recruit/instruct CIPD + specific experience.

The mad face is not directed at you, btw.


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## punchdrunkme (Nov 1, 2012)

sim667 said:


> He's the guy that went up against one of his students in a rap battle isnt he? Poor kid never thought he'd get pwned by an english teacher.




Yeah same guy, some of his other rap battles are really good too. He did one against a malayasian fella who uses a lot of really horrible misogynistic language and battles him using no homophobic, misogynistic or violent language and kills it. He was so good. Makes this other guy look like a right knob.


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## Manter (Nov 1, 2012)

cesare said:


> Aye  Then factor in how many HR/training people on market as a result of cuts/economic shrinkage, and the big boys recruit/instruct CIPD + specific experience.
> 
> The mad face is not directed at you, btw.


I am going to have to argue... Sorry. Lots don't hire CIPD- I use CIPD as warning sign for boring/small job in adverts, any properly big firm don't rate/regard local qualifications


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## cesare (Nov 1, 2012)

Manter said:


> I am going to have to argue... Sorry. Lots don't hire CIPD- I use CIPD as warning sign for boring/small job in adverts, any properly big firm don't rate/regard local qualifications


That's good news, and Spangles sorted then.


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## Manter (Nov 1, 2012)

cesare said:


> That's good news, and Spangles sorted then.




Seriously though, sometimes it takes a while to find the right job, but some of the good recruitment firms can help. I have a friend who was a secretary, then spent some time in a training department, then a stay at home mum, and she just got a job as a training admin.  Recruitment firm were fab in identifying transferable skills, managing the fact she hasn't got a degree (serious problem for some employers)

Edit- stray word removed


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## cesare (Nov 1, 2012)

Manter said:


> Seriously though, sometimes it takes a while to find the right job, but some of the good recruitment firms can help. I have a friend who was a secretary, then spent some time in a training department, then a stay at home mum, and she just got a job as a training admin. Recruitment firm were fab in identifying transferable skills, managing the fact she hasn't got a degree (serious problem for some employers)
> 
> Edit- stray word removed


What's the going rate for a training admin, atm?


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## catinthehat (Nov 1, 2012)

True but these one off quick fix solutions can cause friction - you will have experienced teachers with firsts who didnt get bursaries paying back big loans working alongside new teachers who got bursaries and who are in effect earning more.  Then you put things like Chartered Teacher into the mix - I did CT when I taught in England only to find it does not count in Scotland in FE.


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## sim667 (Nov 1, 2012)

punchdrunkme said:


> Yeah same guy, some of his other rap battles are really good too. He did one against a malayasian fella who uses a lot of really horrible misogynistic language and battles him using no homophobic, misogynistic or violent language and kills it. He was so good. Makes this other guy look like a right knob.





In all fairness the other guy was just a total knobber!


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## spanglechick (Nov 1, 2012)

catinthehat said:


> True but these one off quick fix solutions can cause friction - you will have experienced teachers with firsts who didnt get bursaries paying back big loans working alongside new teachers who got bursaries and who are in effect earning more. Then you put things like Chartered Teacher into the mix - I did CT when I taught in England only to find it does not count in Scotland in FE.


wow - I've never even heard of 'chartered teacher'. What's that then?


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## Manter (Nov 1, 2012)

cesare said:


> What's the going rate for a training admin, atm?


 no idea- she is on 35 ish I think- law firm (not magic circle)


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## cesare (Nov 1, 2012)

Manter said:


> no idea- she is on 35 ish I think- law firm (not magic circle)


That's very good, it's usually £20-£25K. The average for a Training Officer is around £35K so goodness knows what they pay any in-house TOs there. Probably outsourced unless it's a large firm though.


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## Manter (Nov 1, 2012)

cesare said:


> That's very good, it's usually £20-£25K. The average for a Training Officer is around £35K so goodness knows what they pay any in-house TOs there. Probably outsourced unless it's a large firm though.


No idea, I only deal with training/learning departments when I want them to do something for me


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## punchdrunkme (Nov 1, 2012)

sim667 said:


> In all fairness the other guy was just a total knobber!


 
He's a total dick int he? Me and him got beef on facebook. lol

Really loved some of the lines Mark used in that though, I really enjoyed watching it when he did it.


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## catinthehat (Nov 1, 2012)

spanglechick said:


> wow - I've never even heard of 'chartered teacher'. What's that then?


http://www.clt.ac.uk/
Various schemes - this one is Institute of Ed.  Not the one I did though which is prob's extinct by now.


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## Red Cat (Nov 1, 2012)

spanglechick said:


> of course, and i was using the word 'education' sloppily to refer to teaching - and probably specifically secondary-level teaching, as that's where our own memories of being at school are clear and prolonged.
> 
> the op is about the perception of teachers, not education as a holistic concept - and i was responding to the perception of teachers.


 
Education as a holistic concept, 'our schools', classroom teaching and teachers can easily be conflated in discussions of this kind IME.


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## Red Cat (Nov 1, 2012)

catinthehat said:


> http://www.clt.ac.uk/
> Various schemes - this one is Institute of Ed. Not the one I did though which is prob's extinct by now.


 
Is that different from advanced skills teachers then?


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 1, 2012)

spanglechick said:


> yes - even less respect than teaching.


 
And yet both teaching and social work deserve it, and they're both the victim of similar processes of commodification and "marketisation", as well as of deliberate political denigration and interference. A mate in social work reckoned that so much interference from central government, mostly reactive to media headlines, got pumped into SocServ depts that even those managers who wanted to do a good job weren't able to, they were too busy making sure the latest edicts were promulgated and adhered to.


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 1, 2012)

Red Cat said:


> You can say the same for nursing. And parenting.
> 
> I wonder if these things are linked


 
Well, 3 out of the four are centrally-administered by government departments, and with the fourth, the state is certainly intent on making inroads into certain aspects of parenting.


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## purenarcotic (Nov 1, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> And yet both teaching and social work deserve it, and they're both the victim of similar processes of commodification and "marketisation", as well as of deliberate political denigration and interference. A mate in social work reckoned that so much interference from central government, mostly reactive to media headlines, got pumped into SocServ depts that even those managers who wanted to do a good job weren't able to, they were too busy making sure the latest edicts were promulgated and adhered to.


 
Yup. One of my lecturers made an excellent point about the recent Munroe Report that has looked into changing social work. It repeatedly says 'we need to protect children' - at no point does it suggest how it would do this. It is obvious we need to protect children, it is how we do it and what we aren't doing that's the important issue.

It's all changing again; I'm the last year doing the current course, from next year the number of days of placement required will be lessened (this is absolute madness btw. The theory is important and all well and good, but it's my placement that I know will really be where I learn the proper stuff) and they've changed the standards and codes of conduct to something different. It's all the same thing, it just looks different. What a waste of money.

The burnout rate for those who work in child protection is very, very high. Many leave 18 months / 2 years after starting work there because of the high level of work and poor supervision. So one of the most important departments is losing precious experience and excellent social workers as people leave to save their own sanity.


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## spanglechick (Nov 1, 2012)

catinthehat said:


> http://www.clt.ac.uk/
> Various schemes - this one is Institute of Ed. Not the one I did though which is prob's extinct by now.





Red Cat said:


> Is that different from advanced skills teachers then?


from a cursory glance, i don't think AST get the £1000 initial award, but OTOH, i don't think CLTs automatically get additional spine points, do they?


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## Red Cat (Nov 1, 2012)

purenarcotic said:


> they've changed the standards and codes of conduct to something different. It's all the same thing, it just looks different. What a waste of money.


 
Is that because they've transferred regulation of social work to another body?


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## purenarcotic (Nov 1, 2012)

Red Cat said:


> Is that because they've transferred regulation of social work to another body?


 
It's to do with the Munroe Review. It's now called the Professional Capabilities Framework, more info here: http://www.collegeofsocialwork.org/pcf.aspx


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## Red Cat (Nov 1, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Well, 3 out of the four are centrally-administered by government departments, and with the fourth, the state is certainly intent on making inroads into certain aspects of parenting.


 
Yes, there is that 

I was also thinking, less obviously political, that there are unconscious expectations of teachers, nurses and social workers that are akin to the demand for the perfect mother. However, at least for parenting there's a notion of the good enough parent, which means not only that it's ok not to be perfect, but more importantly that being perfect doesn't allow for the mistakes and gaps in understanding and frustrations that allow the child to grow. I wonder, in the context of all this pressure for perfection, what it means to be a good enough teacher/nurse/social worker?


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## purenarcotic (Nov 1, 2012)

Red Cat said:


> Yes, there is that
> 
> I was also thinking, less obviously political, that there are unconscious expectations of teachers, nurses and social workers that are akin to the demand for the perfect mother. However, at least for parenting there's a notion of the good enough parent, which means not only that it's ok not to be perfect, but more importantly that being perfect doesn't allow for the mistakes and gaps and frustrations that allow the child to grow. I wonder, in the context of all this pressure for perfection, what it means to be a good enough teacher/nurse/social worker?


 
Oh social workers aren't allowed to make mistakes it would appear.  A couple of my lecturers have been very, very uncomfortable when I've made the point that we're only human and we shouldn't beat ourselves up if we make a mistake, because everybody makes mistakes.  Which is rather strange considering they're constantly telling us to self reflect and look at what we could have done differently, but not in a criticising way.  Not all of them though, thankfully.


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## Red Cat (Nov 1, 2012)

I read a paper the other day that suggested that one of the factors contributing to burn out in child protection is the expectation that all child deaths can be prevented. It suggested that this was unrealistic magical thinking and unsustainable for the organisation as a whole and the individuals within it.


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## purenarcotic (Nov 1, 2012)

Red Cat said:


> I read a paper the other day that suggested that one of the factors contributing to burn out in child protection is the expectation that all child deaths can be prevented. It suggested that this was unrealistic magical thinking and unsustainable for the organisation as a whole and the individuals within it.


 
Yup, absolutely.  My favourite lecturer spoke about that the other week; she said that in a lot of cases where a child dies it's unexpected and unpredictable.  That SS may be involved and things might be going really well, then something unrelated happens, a parent snaps and a child dies and nobody would have been able to guess that would happen for all the tea in china. 

As with all things, the media only portrays one example.


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 1, 2012)

Red Cat said:


> Yes, there is that
> 
> I was also thinking, less obviously political, that there are unconscious expectations of teachers, nurses and social workers that are akin to the demand for the perfect mother. However, at least for parenting there's a notion of the good enough parent, which means not only that it's ok not to be perfect, but more importantly that being perfect doesn't allow for the mistakes and gaps in understanding and frustrations that allow the child to grow. I wonder, in the context of all this pressure for perfection, what it means to be a good enough teacher/nurse/social worker?


 
I think it's that old "ideal-type" Golden Age nostalgia informing/warping peoples' expectations of teachers, nurses and social workers that gets projected onto parents too, but magnified so that parents are "policed" via the medium of their children. That's always happened to an extent (health visitors etc) but there seems to be an active paranoia against parents/against letting anything that might indicate even benign neglect slip by. And of course, those who've had this active paranoia instilled in them by _fiat_ are the teachers, nurses and social workers. It's a vicious cycle where everyone is supposed to act perfectly when humanity isn't amenable to perfecticity.

_Oy Vey!!!_


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 1, 2012)

Red Cat said:


> I wonder, in the context of all this pressure for perfection, what it means to be a good enough teacher/nurse/social worker?


 
Not what it should, I'm sure.
The teachers I remember, and whom I respected, were few. They were unfailingly those teachers who enthused me about their subjects and who were enthusiastic about their subjects, though. The history teacher who'd ask the bored kids "what are you interested in?" and then relate their interest to its' history, and who'd lend you books from his own stacks at home if he had something on a subject you were interested in; the English teacher who explained that while good spelling, punctuation and grammar were good tools to have in your armoury, passion for whatever you wrote about was the vital ingredient; the chemistry teacher who taught us about catalysis via the medium of explosive devices. 
I think that once a professional loses a passion for their subject/vocation/trade, then while it's highly likely they're still "good enough", an important element of their selves will be lost, and that can only be to their detriment and to the detriment of those they teach or treat. Maybe not in a way that affects performance, but in a way that affects how both parties relate to one another.


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 1, 2012)

Red Cat said:


> I read a paper the other day that suggested that one of the factors contributing to burn out in child protection is the expectation that all child deaths can be prevented. It suggested that this was unrealistic magical thinking and unsustainable for the organisation as a whole and the individuals within it.


 
Was it talking about all deaths including accidents, or about cases where children were actively killed?
The first would indeed by magical thinking, and the second would only be achievable if you could and did surveil the child and immediate family round-the-clock.


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## Cloo (Nov 1, 2012)

What was the big report into child protection year or two ago? I read it and it was brilliant - really incisive and intelligent. It was all about how no amount of practice changes could prevent every tragedy, how the piecemeal way that procedures had developed in response to individual high-profile events meant that the system was not cohesive, how social workers were only human beings and couldn't be blamed for everything and, most importantly, how the way things are now does not help to protect children effectively.


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## Red Cat (Nov 1, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Was it talking about all deaths including accidents, or about cases where children were actively killed?
> The first would indeed by magical thinking, and the second would only be achievable if you could and did surveil the child and immediate family round-the-clock.


 
Actively killed.

By magical thinking I meant more the wish for the capacity to keep the children safe from harm, an omnipotent fantasy, because in reality in order for that to occur it would involve what you've just described.


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## purenarcotic (Nov 1, 2012)

Cloo said:


> What was the big report into child protection year or two ago? I read it and it was brilliant - really incisive and intelligent. It was all about how no amount of practice changes could prevent every tragedy, how the piecemeal way that procedures had developed in response to individual high-profile events meant that the system was not cohesive, how social workers were only human beings and couldn't be blamed for everything and, most importantly, how the way things are now does not help to protect children effectively.


 
The Munroe Review I expect.  My favourite lecturer sat on the task force for that, she's fucking brilliant. 

It's not without it's issues though.  Professor Liz Davies main criticism of it is that it harps on about protecting children but doesn't give any suggestion as to how we should go about doing it apparently.


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 1, 2012)

Red Cat said:


> Actively killed.
> 
> By magical thinking I meant more the wish for the capacity to keep the children safe from harm, an omnipotent fantasy, because in reality in order for that to occur it would involve what you've just described.


 
Which just puts us in the ridiculous situation of govt proposing "supervised living" for "problem families", which is something they've touted before w/r/t everything from truanting, anti-social behaviour and mild juvenile criminality, and would undoubtedly happily roll out for the families of children on the "at risk" register if they could find a way to lumber local authorities with the cost. 

So much money spent proposing "solutions", that could be better spent making sure that services were decently funded and staffed in the first bloody place.


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## Cloo (Nov 1, 2012)

purenarcotic said:


> The Munroe Review I expect. My favourite lecturer sat on the task force for that, she's fucking brilliant.
> 
> It's not without it's issues though. Professor Liz Davies main criticism of it is that it harps on about protecting children but doesn't give any suggestion as to how we should go about doing it apparently.


True - it seems to be spot on about the problems, but I can't remember particular solutions. But it did manage to be clear sighted an non-sensationalist about what the issues are at least, and reminds you what a load of smoke and mirrors the media is when it comes to reporting these things.


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## treefrog (Nov 1, 2012)

I take it back, I am held in high esteem. I got a personalised invitation by the SEN class the other day to attend their end of year morning tea. Turned up today to be served sausage rolls, home-made pizza rolls and cakes the kids had made and decorated for the teachers who they like. It's quite special to have these students rate me enough to be invited, and also to be invited to the graduation for the kids going into college next year to learn how to live independently.

The government might think I'm a shiftless bastard but at least the students think I'm worth putting chocolate buttons on a cupcake


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## Miss-Shelf (Nov 1, 2012)

treefrog said:


> I take it back, I am held in high esteem. I got a personalised invitation by the SEN class the other day to attend their end of year morning tea. Turned up today to be served sausage rolls, home-made pizza rolls and cakes the kids had made and decorated for the teachers who they like. It's quite special to have these students rate me enough to be invited, and also to be invited to the graduation for the kids going into college next year to learn how to live independently.
> 
> The government might think I'm a shiftless bastard but at least the students think I'm worth putting chocolate buttons on a cupcake




I've posted before here about my best present as a primary school teacher was a four year olds gift of a cheap string of plastic beads wrapped in flimsy cheap pink toilet paper and stuffed in a toilet roll inner - I knew she'd given me her own beads off from her own initiative


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