# Local council election candidates



## niclas (Apr 10, 2008)

Statto heaven...

3266 candidates
877 Labour
519 Plaid Cymru
516 Tory
439 Lib Dems
718 independents
29 People's Voice (20 in Blaenau Gwent and 9 Torfaen) 
28 Llais Gwynedd
28 BNP 

Any interesting candidates?

I see there's an Alan "Salty" Jones standing in Merthyr.


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## Belushi (Apr 10, 2008)

> 29 People's Voice (20 in Blaenau Gwent and 9 Torfaen)
> 28 Llais Gwynedd



Who?


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## Udo Erasmus (Apr 11, 2008)

Belushi said:


> Who?



Peoples Voice are the group around Trish Law AM and Dai Davies MP in Blaenau Gwent.

Llais Gwynedd are the party formed from Plaid's meltdown in North Wales over school closures and is made up of Plaid Councillors who quit the party over the closures, disaffected Plaid members and independents.


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## lewislewis (Apr 11, 2008)

Other parties standing that I know of are UKIP, Greens, Left Party, Socialist Alternative, Communist Party.

Interesting candidates? Ron Davies is standing as an independent on Caerphilly (his wife is running for Plaid), former Wales rugby international Roger Bidgood standing for Plaid there too.


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## FaradayCaged (Apr 11, 2008)

i am perticularly fond of Ed Townsend (lib dem), hes done a lot of good things in my local community


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## ddraig (Apr 14, 2008)

*Bridgend organising against BNP*

info i got today that i thought might be useful to put on here





> Bridgend Council Election - organising against the BNP
> 
> 
> Dear All  - please forward this to anyone who might help
> ...


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## niclas (Apr 14, 2008)

Left candidates:

11 CP in Swansea, RCT, Merthyr (where they have one seat), Cardiff and Torfaen.

2 or 3 Respect in Cardiff and Swansea

2 Socialist Party candidates in Cardiff and Swansea

Any more?


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## llantwit (Apr 15, 2008)

I had a ;eaflet from people I thought were Respect through my door yesterday standing under the banner of the "The Left Party". I think one of them's an SWP member. The other I didn't know. Looks like they're standing in Adamsdown and Butetown in Cardiff.


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## osterberg (Apr 15, 2008)

llantwit said:


> I had a ;eaflet from people I thought were Respect through my door yesterday standing under the banner of the "The Left Party". I think one of them's an SWP member. The other I didn't know. Looks like they're standing in Adamsdown and Butetown in Cardiff.



 You make it all sound so sinister
One's in the SWP , the other isn't. And because of tedious wranglings with George Galloway's split off group , Respect can't use it's own name in elections.

There's a list of council candidates here.
http://www.respectcoalition.org/?ite=1874

Here's the Welsh candidates.

Cardiff, Adamsdown, Joe Redmond
Cardiff, Bute Town, Karen Tyre
Swansea, Castle, Moodie Khalvi


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## Udo Erasmus (Apr 15, 2008)

Left Party? It's what it says on the tin!


Read some reports of our Adamsdown candidate on the Heathrow Climate Camp and Climate Change trade union conference

Spelling mistake above: Moodie Khaldi is standing in Swansea, I don't know if he really is moody?


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## osterberg (Apr 15, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> Left Party? It's what it says on the tin!
> 
> 
> Read some reports of our Adamsdown candidate on the Heathrow Climate Camp and Climate Change trade union conference
> ...


 I'm sure he's quite jolly.
Got the spelling off the Respect website. Their fault


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## llantwit (Apr 15, 2008)

osterberg said:


> You make it all sound so sinister


Isn't it?
I thought it was something to do with the split, but wasn't sure exactly what.
Left Party - good name, I guess, in terms of branding. Be nice for you to get as much success as the German Linke.


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## Dic Penderyn (Apr 15, 2008)

llantwit said:


> Isn't it?
> I thought it was something to do with the split, but wasn't sure exactly what.
> Left Party - good name, I guess, in terms of branding. Be nice for you to get as much success as the German Linke.



I predict as much success as the Estonian Vasak...


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## lewislewis (Apr 15, 2008)

In the Western Mail it was saying how Clive Griffiths (former Labour cllr) has got in unopposed on Hirwaun Community Council for the Communist Party. Cue Rob Griffiths claiming they are 'making a comeback' ! All a bit of fun I guess.

Unfortunately the BNP got a few more unopposed people in on Colwyn Bay town council I think, or maybe somewhere else up that way, including their hated North Wales Regional Organiser John Oddy.


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## Col_Buendia (Apr 15, 2008)

All year round the only cunts who put anything through my door are the fucking lib dems. Now in the past week I've had a miraculous flyer from the Left (Behind) party and the Communists. If they weren't so fucking risible, they'd actually make Jenny Randerson's pair of local fuckwits look like serious contenders.

Remember - ONLY THE LIB DEMS can beat Labour in Cardiff. Like that's a fucking earth shattering objective. Jesus.


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## niclas (Apr 16, 2008)

Col_Buendia said:


> Remember - ONLY THE LIB DEMS can beat Labour in Cardiff. Like that's a fucking earth shattering objective. Jesus.



Did they have a patronising picture of two horses so the hard-of-thinking know it's a "two-horse race"? Fib Dems - not to be trusted.


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## zog (Apr 16, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> Left Party? It's what it says on the tin!
> 
> 
> Read some reports of our Adamsdown candidate on the Heathrow Climate Camp and Climate Change trade union conference
> ...



well its a better name than respect. which fuckwit thought up that name and who was daft enough to agree on it?


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## Udo Erasmus (Apr 16, 2008)

lewislewis said:


> In the Western Mail it was saying how Clive Griffiths (former Labour cllr) has got in unopposed on Hirwaun Community Council for the Communist Party. Cue Rob Griffiths claiming they are 'making a comeback' ! All a bit of fun I guess.



Their recent foray into standing lots of candidates is allegedly more related to one of their leaders selling some old painting and getting millions for it rather than a sudden surge: http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/... woman they call 'Stalin's granny'/article.do
 Hence, they can afford to contest the GLA elections and to stand 4 candidates in every constituency in the Welsh Assembly elections etc.

Having said that, I'm sure the CP still has some support from areas of Wales where it was once a force.


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## lewislewis (Apr 16, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> Their recent foray into standing lots of candidates is allegedly more related to one of their leaders selling some old painting and getting millions for it rather than a sudden surge.  Hence, they can afford to contest the GLA elections and to stand 4 candidates in every constituency in the Welsh Assembly elections etc.
> 
> Having said that, I'm sure the CP still has some support from areas of Wales where it was once a force.



Not really, 4 years ago they had a candidate somewhere who only polled 17 or 20 or so votes compared to hundreds for Labour and Plaid. But perhaps if they did put more candidates up then older people in the most working class parts of Wales would have long memories and would vote for them.


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## militant atheist (Apr 16, 2008)

lewislewis said:


> Not really, 4 years ago they had a candidate somewhere who only polled 17 or 20 or so votes compared to hundreds for Labour and Plaid. But perhaps if they did put more candidates up then older people in the most working class parts of Wales would have long memories and would vote for them.



Maybe so.  The CPB polled over 20% in Shotton, Flintshire in 2004 coming second to Labour and pushing the Tories into third place.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_Wales


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## Udo Erasmus (Apr 16, 2008)

I don't want to sound like an ignoramus, but what is a community council? And how does it differ from a normal council?


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## militant atheist (Apr 16, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> I don't want to sound like an ignoramus, but what is a community council? And how does it differ from a normal council?



Very limited powers Udo, like an English Parish Council.  Consulted on planning applications, responsibility for bus shelters etc, minimal budget.  No comparison with a County Council in terms of powers, budget, statutory responsibilities.  Members are sometimes elected, but often there are insufficient candidates to require an election - hence the sudden arrival of the BNP on community councils and their subsequent crowing as if it means _anything_ at all.  Most members do not stand under a party label.


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## niclas (Apr 16, 2008)

militant atheist said:


> Very limited powers Udo, like an English Parish Council.  Consulted on planning applications, responsibility for bus shelters etc, minimal budget.  No comparison with a County Council in terms of powers, budget, statutory responsibilities.  Members are sometimes elected, but often there are insufficient candidates to require an election - hence the sudden arrival of the BNP on community councils and their subsequent crowing as if it means _anything_ at all.  Most members do not stand under a party label.



In theory, community councils can pass by-laws and they all raise taxes so have got more power than the Assembly has. 
 Some of the bigger urban ones employ people, e.g. on welfare advice or to work with local kids. When I was a community councillor, our council funded roadworks to make school crossings safer. It was paid out of the local precept (collected as part of your Council Tax). The by-laws passed tend to be bans on drinking in public places type of things.
 Most of the time, community councils are deadly boring - talking about planning decisions on which they have no say.


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## Udo Erasmus (Apr 17, 2008)

niclas said:


> Left candidates:
> 
> 11 CP in Swansea, RCT, Merthyr (where they have one seat), Cardiff and Torfaen.
> 
> ...



You don't consider Plaid to be left candidates . . .!?
Are there any particularly leftist Plaid candidates that you would flag up as people to watch or support?

What do you think of People's Voice? Seem a mixed bag.  One of their main people Etheridge in Blackwood, I have heard is all over the place, used to be in SDP and LibDems.  Dai Davies MP seems to have a generally left labour voting record, but apparently may support housing stock transfer in Blaenau Gwent. The Chair of Swansea DCH went up there & said Peoples Voice' line seemed to be we support Defend Council Housing nationally, but here stock transfer is the way forward.

Does Forward Wales still exist? Is Marek standing?


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## Udo Erasmus (Apr 17, 2008)

niclas said:


> In theory, community councils can pass by-laws and they all raise taxes so have got more power than the Assembly has.
> Some of the bigger urban ones employ people, e.g. on welfare advice or to work with local kids. When I was a community councillor, our council funded roadworks to make school crossings safer. It was paid out of the local precept (collected as part of your Council Tax). The by-laws passed tend to be bans on drinking in public places type of things.
> Most of the time, community councils are deadly boring - talking about planning decisions on which they have no say.



Generally local government has reduced powers and within that power seems to be increasingly taken away from councillors and placed in hands of 'cabinets'


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## niclas (Apr 17, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> You don't consider Plaid to be left candidates . . .!?
> Are there any particularly leftist Plaid candidates that you would flag up as people to watch or support?
> 
> What do you think of People's Voice? Seem a mixed bag.  One of their main people Etheridge in Blackwood, I have heard is all over the place, used to be in SDP and LibDems.  Dai Davies MP seems to have a generally left labour voting record, but apparently may support housing stock transfer in Blaenau Gwent. The Chair of Swansea DCH went up there & said Peoples Voice' line seemed to be we support Defend Council Housing nationally, but here stock transfer is the way forward.
> ...



I'd already listed Plaid among the main parties.

Marek was going to stand but pulled out at the last minute for a local independent candidate. Ron and the Merthyr candidate Jock McGreer are standing as independents so I'm assuming that FW is no more. 

People's Voice are probably Old Labour, with all the pros and cons that entails. 

Llais Gwynedd are, how can I put this, a more eclectic mix of cultural nationalists who feel betrayed by Plaid and other general Plaid haters (including one UKIP candidate who wants the Welsh language to die). Google John R Walker and Seimon Glyn if you want a complete contrast in political positions. JRW had his house painted with "Learn Welsh you English twat" while Seimon Glyn, who has been elected unopposed as a Llais Gwynedd councillor, wanted to monitor incomers to Gwynedd.


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## Udo Erasmus (Apr 17, 2008)

What is Jock McGreer like?
I was teasing you about Plaid.
People's Voice's programme seems very vague and apolitical, certainly compared to FW whose formal programme seemed to the left of it.


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## lewislewis (Apr 17, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> Generally local government has reduced powers and within that power seems to be increasingly taken away from councillors and placed in hands of 'cabinets'



That's right, but Community Councils don't even have cabinets usually just a Chair and a Clerk. They are meant to be non-political bodies, although they still lobby Assembly Members and County Councils if there is a local issue they'd like resolved.


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## lewislewis (Apr 17, 2008)

niclas said:


> I'd already listed Plaid among the main parties.
> 
> Marek was going to stand but pulled out at the last minute for a local independent candidate. Ron and the Merthyr candidate Jock McGreer are standing as independents so I'm assuming that FW is no more.
> 
> ...



So is Walker standing for Llais Gwynedd?


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## lewislewis (Apr 17, 2008)

I found another lefty, Mike Butler is standing for the 'Alliance for Green Socialism' in Tywyn ward, Conwy. Up against the BNP, an Independent, and a Tory.


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## Udo Erasmus (Apr 17, 2008)

In a way, a little disappointing that the radical left is putting up less candidates than previously, and left unity seems to have taken several steps back over the last eight years - but that's the way it goes . . .


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## Dic Penderyn (Apr 17, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> left unity seems to have taken several steps back over the last eight years



why do think that is? (genuine question)


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## militant atheist (Apr 18, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> Having said that, I'm sure the CP still has some support from areas of Wales where it was once a force.



From the Western Mail: http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/news...munist-councillor-since-1970s-91466-20764172/


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## Karac (Apr 18, 2008)

niclas said:


> I'd already listed Plaid among the main parties.
> 
> Marek was going to stand but pulled out at the last minute for a local independent candidate. Ron and the Merthyr candidate Jock McGreer are standing as independents so I'm assuming that FW is no more.
> 
> ...



Is John Walker really standing for Llais Gwynedd?
On another point ive heard it suggested on another board that certain Independents in Gwent are really BNPers trying to cash in on the popularity of Peoples Voice


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## niclas (Apr 18, 2008)

Karac said:


> Is John Walker really standing for Llais Gwynedd?
> On another point ive heard it suggested on another board that certain Independents in Gwent are really BNPers trying to cash in on the popularity of Peoples Voice



No, should have made it clear that Walker has only signed the nomination papers of a Llais Gwynedd candidate.


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## niclas (Apr 18, 2008)

lewislewis said:


> I found another lefty, Mike Butler is standing for the 'Alliance for Green Socialism' in Tywyn ward, Conwy. Up against the BNP, an Independent, and a Tory.



Mike is a good bloke, a former Labour town councillor and I wish him well. Unfortunately he's standing in an area far more likely to back the BNPer - lots of white flighters.


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## niclas (Apr 18, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> What is Jock McGreer like?
> I was teasing you about Plaid.
> People's Voice's programme seems very vague and apolitical, certainly compared to FW whose formal programme seemed to the left of it.



Jock is sound - a good community activist. FW and People's Voice are essentially the same kind of localised Labour splits. The difference is that Trish Law and Dai Davies won their seats again and Marek didn't.


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## niclas (Apr 18, 2008)

Dic Penderyn said:


> why do think that is? (genuine question)



This one could run and run...


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## lewislewis (Apr 21, 2008)

niclas said:


> Jock is sound - a good community activist. FW and People's Voice are essentially the same kind of localised Labour splits. The difference is that Trish Law and Dai Davies won their seats again and Marek didn't.



Would it be accurate to say that Llais Gwynedd, with a few exceptions, mainly represent the more middle-class people and incomers into the area, as well as the nationalists that have left Plaid? Certainly, LG aren't standing in any urban areas that I can think of. Plaid might well make gains in the urban areas of Gwynedd at the expense of Labour, especially as the controversial schools programme will be benefiting urban schools. I can think of a few wards in Bangor where Plaid might make headway because of this.

Also, the BNP candidate in Maesgerichen (sp) has been withdrawn.


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## Udo Erasmus (Apr 24, 2008)

militant atheist said:


> From the Western Mail: http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/news...munist-councillor-since-1970s-91466-20764172/



Shame about your parties support for the Chinese Dictatorship:
http://welshcommunists.org/index.php?id=156 Last year, leading members of your party visited the regime as special guset the state that you describe as "People's China" and argued it provided an example for the West with its dynamic economy. Even a child can grasp that China's current economic boom has nothing to do with socialism but massive exploitation of workers and peasants with a corresponding increase in inequality.


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## Dic Penderyn (Apr 24, 2008)

niclas said:


> This one could run and run...



Or be ignored...


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## militant atheist (Apr 24, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> special guset


 



> the state that you describe as "People's China"


 err...that's what it's called Udo. http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/History+of+the+People's+Republic+of+China


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## lewislewis (Apr 24, 2008)

These elections have been quite boring.

I expect Plaid will hold Gwynedd, Labour will hold the Valleys (but lose seats here and there to Plaid), apart from Caerphilly which just might see Plaid creep back in. The Tories might win the Vale of Glam but don't know. Lib Dems will still be largest party in Swansea and Cardiff, don't know enough about Wrexham or Bridgend. Plaid might get in on Ceredigion, don't know about the arithmetic though.

Is anyone else on this forum a candidate btw?


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## niclas (Apr 25, 2008)

lewislewis said:


> These elections have been quite boring.
> 
> I expect Plaid will hold Gwynedd, Labour will hold the Valleys (but lose seats here and there to Plaid), apart from Caerphilly which just might see Plaid creep back in. The Tories might win the Vale of Glam but don't know. Lib Dems will still be largest party in Swansea and Cardiff, don't know enough about Wrexham or Bridgend. Plaid might get in on Ceredigion, don't know about the arithmetic though.
> 
> Is anyone else on this forum a candidate btw?



Yep and from the response on the doorstep in this solid Labour ward, I'd say Labour is in for a pasting. Not so much for the local stuff but for the 10p tax rate and Brown in general. 
 Although people have always said "never again" with Labour time after time (and still they vote for a donkey with a red rosette), slowly but surely that vote is crumbling.
 Too many local/individual factors to make any detailed predictions but I'd say the above guesstimate was pretty close to it. Given the expected losses in Gwynedd, if Plaid is +20 on the night it's a good result.

 I have heard that it's getting frantic in Riverside - Labour and Plaid with about 300 posters each in people's gardens (it is a big ward).


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## lewislewis (Apr 25, 2008)

I drove through Riverside the other day, the amount of posters is insane for an election in this day and age. I wouldn't be surprised if turnout is pretty high! Currently the ward is split with Plaid holding 2 seats and Labour holding 1. Labour's sitting councillor is standing down and their charge is being led by Rhodri Morgan's former special advisor Mark Drakeford. Let's hope we can take all three seats. I've found a good thing that has stuck in people's minds on the doorstep is when our AM's didn't take the 8.3% pay rise (apart from a certain Lord).


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## Udo Erasmus (Apr 25, 2008)

militant atheist said:


> err...that's what it's called Udo. http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/History+of+the+People's+Republic+of+China



MA, your website headlines in the course of an election a demo by supporters of a dictatorship that oppresses its own working class, the leaders of your party visited China as special guests of the Chinese Communist Party, and on his return your Gen. Sec wrote a crazy article extolling China as an example to the West of how socialism can create a dynamic economy. China's boom is built on massive exploitation, attacks on workers rights, and growing inequality and nothing to do with socialism. 

No socialist could stomach referring to Korea or China as "Peoples" China or "Peoples" Korea. Or the kind of orwellian doublethink where your London candidates issue press releses condemning pogroms carried out by Tibetan demonstrators.

Chinese troops are not only involved in repression within the country and in places such as Tibet, but also part of the imperialist occupation of Haiti where they repress poor people there. China is also currently engaged in a new scramble for Africa to loot the country to fuel it's expanding economy and supports repressive regimes, China also for similar reasons linked to oil backs the Sudanese regime and Burmese regime. But at the same time opposes the Maoists in Nepal who have swept to power in a landslide with Comrade Prachanda, former leader of the Peoples Liberation Army now the Prime Minister to be.

I mean Hungary 1956, Prague 1968, Tianemen Square 1989, when will the Tankies ever learn?


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## Udo Erasmus (Apr 25, 2008)

lewislewis said:


> I drove through Riverside the other day, the amount of posters is insane for an election in this day and age. I wouldn't be surprised if turnout is pretty high! Currently the ward is split with Plaid holding 2 seats and Labour holding 1. Labour's sitting councillor is standing down and their charge is being led by Rhodri Morgan's former special advisor Mark Drakeford. Let's hope we can take all three seats. I've found a good thing that has stuck in people's minds on the doorstep is when our AM's didn't take the 8.3% pay rise (apart from a certain Lord).



Haven't seen very many posters up in this election. Niclas is correct the most striking development is the implosion of the traditional rock-solid Labour vote, though I think trad Labour voters are switching mainly to LibDems. The other thing that strikes me is how apolitical the leaflets of the mainstream parties are, all talk about very minor issues, planning and stuff, but don't want to talk about the wider issues and bigger picture.

For example, the labour candidates were photographed outside a former video shop that's been turned into a Student Pub (shock! Horror! Young people enjoying themselves!), while the LibDems leaflet boasted that they took a couple of takeaways to court for opening late.


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## lewislewis (Apr 25, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> Haven't seen very many posters up in this election. Niclas is correct the most striking development is the implosion of the traditional rock-solid Labour vote, though I think trad Labour voters are switching mainly to LibDems. The other thing that strikes me is how apolitical the leaflets of the mainstream parties are, all talk about very minor issues, planning and stuff, but don't want to talk about the wider issues and bigger picture.
> 
> For example, the labour candidates were photographed outside a former video shop that's been turned into a Student Pub (shock! Horror! Young people enjoying themselves!), while the LibDems leaflet boasted that they took a couple of takeaways to court for opening late.



Part of this is because in the last ten to twenty years local government has been heavily depoliticised by central government. Perhaps Blair learning from the days when radical councils could challenge the centre of power. 

Still, councillors do control pretty large budgets and it's probably quite important who is in power.


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## Karac (Apr 25, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> Haven't seen very many posters up in this election. Niclas is correct the most striking development is the implosion of the traditional rock-solid Labour vote, though I think trad Labour voters are switching mainly to LibDems.



Thats sadly my experience-my mum and dad were rock solid Labour supporters-now ive heard my dad say he wont vote Labour again-not due to Iraq or any major issue but because they put too much tax on beer in the last budget
They would never vote Tory in a hundred years-ive tried to introduce them to the delights of Plaid Cymru but they dont want to know
So theyre probably going to vote Libdem if they vote at all


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## niclas (Apr 25, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> The other thing that strikes me is how apolitical the leaflets of the mainstream parties are, all talk about very minor issues, planning and stuff, but don't want to talk about the wider issues and bigger picture.



Our biggest issue here in Wrecsam is affordable housing and that's what our leaflet focusses on - building new council houses and ensuring that all housing developments are for local need rather than the luxury "executive homes" that have sprung up in the past 5 years for Cheshire commuters. Average house prices are £186,000 - nine times the average wage for the area.


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## osterberg (Apr 30, 2008)

What Left Party/Respect candidates have been doing in the last week.

http://www.respectcoalition.org/?ite=1922


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## llantwit (Apr 30, 2008)

osterberg said:


> What Left Party/Respect candidates have been doing in the last week.
> 
> http://www.respectcoalition.org/?ite=1922





> Police serve Public Order Act on the demonstration to prevent us marching in the City Centre where people can see us - it seems the political establishment in Wales is rattled. *The highlight of the day is an impassioned speech from Davy McAuley from the Derry Raytheon 9 campaign; he talks about meeting a family in Lebanon who lost 20 family members to a Raytheon bomb, and seeing children with their limbs blown off.* Later in the bar, we have a long conversation about socialism, setting up an organised trade union faction and the living wage campaign.



It was indeed a highlight of the day, but that's a slightly odd summation of what he said, I think.
I was more struck by his description of very militant direct action (taken to prevent further such attrocities) by a small group of anti war protestors who got inside a Raytheon factory and completely trashed the offices, smashing computers and throwing them out of windows before starting an occupation.
The kind of action which has in the past been roundly condemed and strongly discouraged by SWP/Respect members on this side of the Irish Sea.
Can we expect more support for this kind of action in the future?


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## lewislewis (Apr 30, 2008)

Karac said:


> Thats sadly my experience-my mum and dad were rock solid Labour supporters-now ive heard my dad say he wont vote Labour again-not due to Iraq or any major issue but because they put too much tax on beer in the last budget
> They would never vote Tory in a hundred years-ive tried to introduce them to the delights of Plaid Cymru but they dont want to know
> So theyre probably going to vote Libdem if they vote at all



That's odd, my parents switched straight to Plaid and they were previously Labour.


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## Swan (May 1, 2008)

Port Talbot will probably go to NOC.The Labour party are pretty desperate as this story in the local paper shows;

http://www.thisissouthwales.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=161818&command=displayConNeath tent&sourceNode=161644&contentPK=20506483&folderPk=88499&pNodeId=161375

That is just a summary of whats been going on over the last few weeks.The Labour party were already pretty unpopular over some of thier planning decisions.Linda Ware is standing for Plaid in Cilfrew,she was one of the members of Safe Haven Network, a group who fought against the gas pipeline and the AGI that is being built in her village.She joined Plaid because they were the only party that offered any "real" support. 

Here in Swansea,some people think the Lib Dems appear to have a pact with the Independents not to stand against one another.My partner is standing in Lower Lougher and the response on the door is pretty positive towards Plaid.Wether that will transfer to votes we will see tomorrow.


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## osterberg (May 1, 2008)

llantwit said:


> It was indeed a highlight of the day, but that's a slightly odd summation of what he said, I think.
> I was more struck by his description of very militant direct action (taken to prevent further such attrocities) by a small group of anti war protestors who got inside a Raytheon factory and completely trashed the offices, smashing computers and throwing them out of windows before starting an occupation.
> The kind of action which has in the past been roundly condemed and strongly discouraged by SWP/Respect members on this side of the Irish Sea.
> Can we expect more support for this kind of action in the future?



 You thinking of some other organisation?

 I've no problem with the sort of direct action you describe. I admire the people who do it. But this sort of direct action excludes those of us who are not willing to get arrested or to put themselves in harm's way.Like me.I've a yellow streak a mile wide.

 I like to see mass movements where as many people as possible are involved.

 Mass action and industrial action are far more effective.

The Raytheon direct action was great and it raised awareness of what's going on but Raytheon are still in business.

 On the other hand South African trade unionists have _stopped_ arms reaching Mugabe's regime from South Africa.


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## Udo Erasmus (May 1, 2008)

llantwit said:


> It was indeed a highlight of the day, but that's a slightly odd summation of what he said, I think.
> I was more struck by his description of very militant direct action (taken to prevent further such attrocities) by a small group of anti war protestors who got inside a Raytheon factory and completely trashed the offices, smashing computers and throwing them out of windows before starting an occupation.
> The kind of action which has in the past been roundly condemed and strongly discouraged by SWP/Respect members on this side of the Irish Sea.
> Can we expect more support for this kind of action in the future?



With due respect, the passage quoted wasn't a report of the demo and campaign, but just a quick summary of what people have been up to. Nor was it a summary of Davy's speech, the reason why that particular image was highlighted was because it gives a glimpse of the reality behidn Raytheon coming to Wales - children getting their limbs blown off.

yeah, Davy and many of the Raytheon 9 are members of the Irish SWP.


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## Dic Penderyn (May 1, 2008)

osterberg said:


> You thinking of some other organisation?
> 
> I've no problem with the sort of direct action you describe. I admire the people who do it. But this sort of direct action excludes those of us who are not willing to get arrested or to put themselves in harm's way.Like me.I've a yellow streak a mile wide.
> 
> ...



But it's not an either/or is it? 

If there is any sort of binary choice then it's militant direct action versus the police sanctioned bearing of witness.

I take real issue with the idea that _"this sort of direct action excludes those of us who are not willing to get arrested or to put themselves in harm's way"_ 
It shows a real lack of ignorance about how these sort of actions are made effective - as well as the people putting themselves in harms way you need legal observers, a media team, people willing to do legal support and more. 
If you ideologically agree with the concept of direct action there is plenty of ways to get involved to help make it more effective even if your yellow streak is 5 miles wide.


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## llantwit (May 1, 2008)

Sorry - response to Osterberg posted on Udo's other thread.


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## llantwit (May 1, 2008)

See Udo's other thread for response


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## osterberg (May 1, 2008)

llantwit said:


> I don't think I'm thinking of another organisation. I remember being continually frustrated by SWP members arguing against the use of direct action during the run up to the war and during the war. What struck me was a doctrinaire refusal to accept, let alone encourage, forms of protest which were not being backed by those at the top of the Stop The War Coalition.
> I argue for a diversity of tactics depending on the situation at hand. And of course mass industrial action like that in S Africa is more effective than a small-scale one in Derry. But it's not either or. Workplace organisation, marching from A-B, leafletting, agit-prop and media activism, and small and large-scale direct action can all be effective and appropriate weapons.
> I've got a fairly healthy yellow-streak, too, but the times I've participated in direct action have been some of the most powerful and empowering aspects of my political education so far.



 Oh good we agree.You use the most effective action available.

It's not either or.But that's not the impression I've had from most anarchists.
We will just have to agree to disagree about the respective records of our different political traditions on this.

Glad you agree working class mass action is the most effective method of struggle.


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## llantwit (May 1, 2008)

osterberg said:


> Oh good we agree.You use the most effective action available.
> 
> It's not either or.But that's not the impression I've had from most anarchists.
> We will just have to agree to disagree about the respective records of our different political traditions on this.
> ...


Absolutely. And I think most of the anarchists you'd meet in Cardiff would agree with you on that too. Most of us are what one might call 'social anarchists' who are commited to working class mass action. Just not to the exclusion of other forms of struggle.


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## lewislewis (May 1, 2008)

On a separate note, I just voted for myself! I am predicting a landslide victory as we paint the town red, white and green!


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## lewislewis (May 1, 2008)

If you take a principled abstainance from voting, do you guys stay at home or turn up anyway and put a line through the ballot paper to still count as turnout?


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## llantwit (May 1, 2008)

I'd probably spoil my ballot paper if voting was compulsory. Always thought it's a bit pointless otherwise.


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## Udo Erasmus (May 2, 2008)

Well, the expected landslide for Respect in Wales didn't happen! Labour seem to have taken a hammering losing at least 4 Councils in once rock solid Labour territory - Merthyr, Torfaen, Blaenau Gwent and somewhere else. The Gwynedd Voice group seem to have gained a couple of seats, the People's Voice group ditto. I haer they have their first councillors - five in Blaenau Gwent.

The continued collapse of Labour as the natural party for working class voters continues apace, apparently overall in this election they are now third behind LibDems and Tories.

Does anyone know how the fascists did? (badly I hope)


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## Udo Erasmus (May 2, 2008)

Plaid will probably be celebrating in Riverside, having gained an extra councillor in Cardiff.


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## Udo Erasmus (May 2, 2008)

Former Forward Wales man, Neil "Jock" Greer seems to have been elected in Merthyr: "Neil “Jock” Greer, independent candidate for the Penydarren Ward, said: “I’m elated. This has opened a new chapter in a democratic society. I think we will see a good council coming out.
I think I’m the first councillor to wear a kilt, I’m breaking the mould!
Now I’m going to buy a Welsh kilt and I will be proud to wear it.”


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## lewislewis (May 2, 2008)

He sounds like a dude!

Mixed bag for Plaid, overall we've gone up but we have lost control of Gwynedd and Dafydd Iwan lost his seat to Llais Gwynedd, although the BBC report that he is leader of the council is not true. We just missed out on winning Ceredigion which is a shame.

Cardiff went well I heard, gained all 3 seats in Fairwater!


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## Udo Erasmus (May 2, 2008)

I see Neil McEvoy, a supporter of the Palestine Solidarity Campaign, is elected. While not having much time for Plaid, it might help to articulate an antiwar voice on the council. When I spoke to Gwenllian Lansdown from Plaid, she told me that Rodney Berman and the LibDems had consistently blocked international politics being discussed, for example, during the bombing of Lebanon!


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## lewislewis (May 2, 2008)

Neil McEvoy is a legend.

Plaid have also made their first ever breakthrough on Wrexham, gaining 4 seats from 0!

Still waiting to hear about Caerphilly from the web as unfortunately I don't have any mates there.


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## Udo Erasmus (May 2, 2008)

http://www.caerphilly.gov.uk/trans/ELECTIONS/

Ron Davies is now a councillor.


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## lewislewis (May 2, 2008)

We've got our first ever councillors on Torfaen, 3 of them. Gwynedd will overshadow things for us but we have made loads of progress. Congratulations to urban poster Niclas who has been elected in Wrexham beating Labour by 3 votes! The BNP got stuffed in Wrexham as well.


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## lewislewis (May 2, 2008)

Caerphilly went close, Lab 31, Plaid 28, independents 9.


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## Udo Erasmus (May 2, 2008)

But don't forget, Lewislewis, the system cannot be patched up. Reformism is masochism


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## lewislewis (May 2, 2008)

You are probably right, just a shame most voters don't agree.

The BBC site is now reading Lab and Plaid tied on 32 in Philly. Maybe there was a recount. Ron Davies' wife got in as well lol.

We lost 8 seats in Gwynedd overall though. Labour lost 4 of theirs and the Libs lost 1. Don't know what will happen there now.

I'm pleased overall though, we look set to increase our net share of seats,


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## niclas (May 3, 2008)

BNP did v badly in its biggest target of Wrecsam - with the exception of 264 votes in Coedpoeth, which we'll have to watch.

Plaid stood 6 candidates and got 4 councillors, including two in Caia Park, which makes us the biggest party in the Park. This is an area where Labour has ruled (misruled) for donkey's years and taken the people for granted. 

Just squeezed by 3 and 5 votes respectively but a miss is as good as a mile...


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## Udo Erasmus (May 3, 2008)

Does anyone have an overall picture of how the Nazis did in Wales? The really terrible news is that the BNP have won a seat on the London Assembly with Mayoral candidate, Richard Barnbrook now sitting there. 

In Cardiff, it sounds like Plaid and LibDems could be forming a joint coalition, though the Echo also carried a picture of Rodney Berman and the leader of the Tories. I guess us ordinary people will hear the outcome of these backroom deals in due time.


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## niclas (May 3, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> Does anyone have an overall picture of how the Nazis did in Wales? The really terrible news is that the BNP have won a seat on the London Assembly with Mayoral candidate, Richard Barnbrook now sitting there.
> 
> In Cardiff, it sounds like Plaid and LibDems could be forming a joint coalition, though the Echo also carried a picture of Rodney Berman and the leader of the Tories. I guess us ordinary people will hear the outcome of these backroom deals in due time.



Not a peep on the BNP website about Wales... wonder why.

Their N W Wales organiser John Oddy (Oddy by name...) got a whopping 3% in Rhos on Sea, Colwyn Bay.


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## Karac (May 3, 2008)

niclas said:


> BNP did v badly in its biggest target of Wrecsam - with the exception of 264 votes in Coedpoeth, which we'll have to watch.
> 
> Plaid stood 6 candidates and got 4 councillors, including two in Caia Park, which makes us the biggest party in the Park. This is an area where Labour has ruled (misruled) for donkey's years and taken the people for granted.
> 
> Just squeezed by 3 and 5 votes respectively but a miss is as good as a mile...



Thats brilliant-id heard the BNP were targetting Caia Park but in the end didnt even have the bottle to stand a candidate-good to see Oddy getting a pasting as well


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## lewislewis (May 4, 2008)

What an extraordinary election for Labour. I am so happy with the Plaid result though, up to 205 councillors- the most net gains in the UK after the Tories (that's right, even though we don't stand in England we got more net gains than the Lib Dems did in Eng & Wales combined).

We're up by 31 and are the largest party on 3 councils for the first time since 1999. 

The Gwynedd hiccup is the only downer, but we did gain seats in the urban parts of the county so we can rebuild from that. We should still be in power there anyway but we'll wait and see.

The Tories also failed in their aim of taking seats in Plaid heartlands- none in Gwynedd or Ceredigion. 

The good thing for Plaid is that we gained ground in the rural areas/heartlands (look at Carmarthenshire & Ynys Mon) and also gained in the urban areas (Wrexham, RCT, Torfaen, Cardiff, Caerphilly). Considering we're also in government with Labour this is a vote of confidence in what we have been doing.

After the Tories, we are the biggest winner in the whole of the UK.

What did we do right?


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## Udo Erasmus (May 4, 2008)

Gwynedd is significant. It was the only Plaid council, the only local council where Plaid held power in Wales. What did you do wrong? 

More seriously, It used to be the case in some areas of Wales that if you got a donkey and stuck a red rosette on it, then this Labour candidate would win. I think now if you are seen as the credible anti-Labour candidate you will win. Voters will pick whichever candidate is best positioned to punish Labour.


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## lewislewis (May 4, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> Gwynedd is significant. It was the only Plaid council, the only local council where Plaid held power in Wales. What did you do wrong?
> 
> More seriously, It used to be the case in some areas of Wales that if you got a donkey and stuck a red rosette on it, then this Labour candidate would win. I think now if you are seen as the credible anti-Labour candidate you will win. Voters will pick whichever candidate is best positioned to punish Labour.



What did we do wrong in Gwynedd? We planned to close a load of schools!

Nationally though, this is our joint best ever result at a time when we are in coalition with Labour and against a UK-wide Tory surge of epic proportions. So i'd like to think there's a bit more to it than us being an anti-Labour party


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## Gavin Bl (May 4, 2008)

the independents who did well - is there any kind of theme to them or co-operation - are they mostly 'old labour' types, or what?


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## Karac (May 4, 2008)

Gavin Bl said:


> the independents who did well - is there any kind of theme to them or co-operation - are they mostly 'old labour' types, or what?



I suspect in working class areas of Wales-Blaenau Gwent,Torfaen etc theyre old Labour-but in places like Pembroke and Powys etc theyre probably Tories


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## niclas (May 4, 2008)

Karac said:


> I suspect in working class areas of Wales-Blaenau Gwent,Torfaen etc theyre old Labour-but in places like Pembroke and Powys etc theyre probably Tories



A lot of the Tory gains in rural Wales were simply independents "coming out" as Tories.

A lot of urban indies are ex-Labour types.

One point with Gwynedd is that Labour failed to capitalise on Plaid's woes - it lost 4 there. Given the instability of LLais Gwynedd (it's only unifying force is hatred of Plaid), I reckon it'll implode within 4 yrs.

As well as Gwynedd  Plaid is also the largest party (and probably going to head coalitions with indies) in Carmarthen, Caerffili and possibly Ceredigion. 

And we're the biggest party in Caia Park, Wxm!


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## lewislewis (May 4, 2008)

What's your national analysis of what we should do now before Rhodri Morgan retires?


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## Udo Erasmus (May 12, 2008)

Pigs in the troughs of power: It's looking likely that Plaid Cymru will be propping up the cuts and privatisation LibDems at County Hall. (Though Rodney Berman may choose the Tories as his coalition partner of choice). In due time, the electorate may be informed of the result of these backroom deals between the different capitalist parties. 

According to the Echo, the terms of the LibDem/Plaid deal are based on LibDems meeting Plaid's _demands all related to West Cardiff _such as keeping Cantonian High School open (ie. Plaid's condition for a coalition are not demanding ending ALL school closures in Cardiff, just one in the area where most of their voters live). It seems the nationalists are concerned, not  with articulating any vision for the City of Cardiff, as a whole, to opposethe increased corporate takeover of the city, but rather with brokering a side-deal with the LibDems over their turf in West Cardiff. 

The collapse of politics can only be bad for working class representation. We see the LibDems attack Labour over post office closures. But the LibDems are closing schools. We see Plaid in Cardiff attack the LibDems over closing schools, but Plaid in Gwynedd have been attempting the biggest school closure programme in Wales. 

And in the event of a Tory government after the next general election, Adam Price MP has said he would be happy to prop them up, if it was in the "interests of Wales".

What can one say of the mainstream parties: Each is as bad as the other. Each is worse than the other.

The question is: How do we cut across the grain of the mainstream political establishment with an alternative movement to mobilise those at the base of society against the corporate takeover of society?


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## llantwit (May 12, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> The question is: How do we cut across the grain of the mainstream political establishment with an alternative movement to mobilise those at the base of society against the corporate takeover of society?


You've changed yer tune haven't you?
The question not so long ago was how can we mobilise enough voters for a reformist leftist party in coalition with a bunch of religious types to scramble together a couple of councillors and maybe hold onto an increasingly bonkers sounding MP?


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## Udo Erasmus (May 12, 2008)

llantwit said:


> You've changed yer tune haven't you?
> The question not so long ago was how can we mobilise enough voters for a reformist leftist party in coalition with a bunch of religious types to scramble together a couple of councillors and maybe hold onto an increasingly bonkers sounding MP?



No, wrong on all counts. I always saw standing in elections as a _tactic_ in a wider struggle, our elected representatives were intended to use their office to support these struggles and make propaganda against the system. It would be incorrect to characterise the kind of coalition that we were interested in building as reformist, it was rather a coalition between reformists, radicals and revolutionaries in which the question of reform/revolution was left open - evidently such a coalition is inherrently unstable. My belief has never been that getting politicians elected was a route to change, our aim was always to build grassroots movements.

Personally, I support standing socialist candidates in elections in some circumstances, because otherwise you leave the field open to the neoliberal parties. Such electoral work - if it doesn't get caught in the trap of electoralism - can be part of the the process of building an alternative movement to mobilise those at the base of society against the corporate takeover of society.

Llantwit, you seem to be the one vaciliating. At one time you insisted on Urban75 that you were basically a reformist and that you regarded direct action as _only a tactic_, presumably having no faith that working people could create alternate democratic forms to the current bourgeois state. 

On one hand you embrace the liberal lifestyle politics of the Vote Nobody campaign, Buy Nothing Day's etc, then you say that you would support standing candidates (a la Bookchin) for local elections moving into a fluffy localism. Since the 1980s local councils have decreased powers, and it is hard to see what you could achieve in that forum on your terms.


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## llantwit (May 12, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> Llantwit, you seem to be the one vaciliating. At one time you insisted on Urban75 that you were basically a reformist and that you regarded direct action as _only a tactic_


Where did I ever say any of that? Or have you extrapolated all that other stuff from the three word you actually quote me saying ("only a tactic")?


Udo Erasmus said:


> presumably having no faith that working people could create alternate democratic forms to the current bourgeois state.


Oh, yeah. That's what I belive. You got me. So obvious. Got me.


Udo Erasmus said:


> On one hand you embrace the liberal lifestyle politics of the Vote Nobody campaign, Buy Nothing Day's etc, then you say that you would support standing candidates (a la Bookchin) for local elections moving into a fluffy localism. Since the 1980s local councils have decreased powers, and it is hard to see what you could achieve in that forum on your terms.


I wasn't advocating standing in elections, just saying I can see the merits of some of Bookchin's ideas, and can see the point behind the tactics of the Swedish group I mentioned. I'm not about to start standing in elections or moving into 'fluffy localism'.
I've never been involved with a buy nothing day... which in itself is clearly something COMPLETELY different from a Vote Nobody campaign. My point about the Vote Nobody campaign was that I see it as an excuse to engage with people about anarchist politics, and a good chance to create a load of good prop to do that.
Is the sun going to your head or something? Because that post makes even less sense than your usual.


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## llantwit (May 12, 2008)

The only thing I can think you might be doing is attempting to "cleverly" show me up for somehow being a "lifestyle anarchist" whilst also adhering to "social anarchist" tendencies (to use Bookchin's terms). 
If that's the game then play away, cos I don't really agree with the validity of Bookchin's dichotomy anyway. If that's not what you're trying, then excuse the jargon.
Or maybe you were just joking?


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## Udo Erasmus (May 12, 2008)

llantwit said:


> Where did I ever say any of that? Or have you extrapolated all that other stuff from the three word you actually quote me saying ("only a tactic")?



Admittedly a long time ago, but I ran into Llantwit once in the Land of Green Ginger and all I can recall is his two statements, that he just _loved_ literary theory and "I'm basically a reformist". Of course, people change their opinions and philosophy . . .

You also stated on here, sometime in the past, that you weren't really an anarchist, that it was only a tactic, and was duly reprimanded by your old sidekick, Colonel Buendia.

But if you say that this is not true, then fair enough, not really much point debating this rather than the issues at hand



> I wasn't advocating standing in elections, just saying I can see the merits of some of Bookchin's ideas, and can see the point behind the tactics of the Swedish group I mentioned. I'm not about to start standing in elections or moving into 'fluffy localism'.



If you support standing in elections in certain circumstances, aren't you in bad faith when you tell the kids "vote nobody"? If you believe that in circumstances standing in an election could be an appropriate tactic, then surely this is incompatible with the "Vote Nobody" campaign.

Bookchin is a very stimulating writer, but his line on elections has to be one of his lamest, along with his take on the key issue of "class". Some groups such as Class War have supported an electoral tactic. But Bookchin gives no convincing reason why only local and not national elections should be contested. 

If power corrupts at a national level, surely it corrupts just as much at a local level. What are local councils but the administrators of a budget imposed by the state? He also advocates a strategy that is markedly similar to the Stalinist "stages theory" (that the fight for socialism doesn't take place consistently, but is rather deferred to a future stage). Basically, councils will be won over to Libertarian Municapalism one at a time, then sometime in the future, when enough councils have been won over, they will defy the central state. 

Of course, socialists haven't waited till lots of councils have been won over to defy the state: Militant in Liverpool, the Rebel Councillors of Poplar etc.

Bookchin can be characterised as a fluffy localist, because he tries to abstract local politics from the question of state power.



> I've never been involved with a buy nothing day... which in itself is clearly something COMPLETELY different from a Vote Nobody campaign. My point about the Vote Nobody campaign was that I see it as an excuse to engage with people about anarchist politics, and a good chance to create a load of good prop to do that.



I saw a lot of your lot involved in one, just assumed you were part of the group. "Buy Nothing Days" "Vote Nobody" are just gesture politics unconnected with workers sruggle, they both appeal to the same liberal mentality of moralism as politics, hence "Lifestyle". This election I voted nobody, but I don't kid myself that a low turnout would represent a victory for our side, or that voting nobody has any concrete effect on moving towards a radical democratisation of society. I have no faith in parliamentary democracy or that a new society can be built without replacing parliamentary democracy with new forms of democracy that arise directly out of the struggle.


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## llantwit (May 12, 2008)

Fuck me, Udo. Would that be the Land of Green Ginger that closed down almost 10 years ago? I can safely admit I wasn't an anarchist in 1999 when we had that conversation, but I wasn't really a reformist either. I might have said it to get you off my back if you were selling me a paper.
It's possible I didn't call myself an anarchist in my early days posting on here, too, despite being involved with CAN then.
On the local elections thing - I think that any foray into local politics should be accompanied by a commitment to building alternative (properly) democratic institutions that, like you say, 'rise directly out of struggle', and should go hand in hand with the goal of replacing the current electoral system with directly democratic institutions.
BUT, like I said. I'm not about to start running in elections tomorrow - I was just saying I'm not opposed torunning in elections rigidly, and can imagine some instances where I'd support it. I really don't see this as running counter to participating in Vote Nobody campaigns like the one we did a few years back.
I also disagree that they are unconnected to 'the workers struggle' as you put it, and nobody involved really thinks that a victory for 'nobody' equates to 'the radical democratisation of society' because that would be bonkers.
Oh, and I can't believe I'm being lectured on bad faith by a swappie.


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## llantwit (May 12, 2008)

Oh, and I still love literary theory. 
I also like pizza and Brains dark.


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## niclas (May 12, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> According to the Echo,


Since when did revolutionary socialists believe the Echo?

And since when did the SWP take the high moral ground in terms of political wheeler-dealing? The SWP repeatedly scuppered the chances of principled left unity in the WSA before closing it down.

From what you say the small Plaid group has extracted some key concessions from the Lib Dems - in reformist terms that's what you'd call a result. 

The vision thing is something different. Here we are exploring ways of getting affordable housing built rather than executive homes for developers' profits. This means challenging both the mindset of planning officers and the current draft development plan.

 I'll post more when we get some results - affordable housing wasn't built in a day...


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## Udo Erasmus (May 13, 2008)

llantwit said:


> Oh, and I still love literary theory.



Yes, but as long as you remeber Sartre's dictum in his marxist classic, _Question of Method_: "Language can be the subject of philosophy, but never its basis"


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## Udo Erasmus (May 13, 2008)

niclas said:


> And since when did the SWP take the high moral ground in terms of political wheeler-dealing? The SWP repeatedly scuppered the chances of principled left unity in the WSA before closing it down.



(Just for clarification to Niclas and Llantwit, I'm not a member of the SWP).

Niclas, Your former organisation, Cymru Goch, left the WSA because they couldn't get support for an attempt to transform it from a socialist organisation into a left nationalist organisation. As to principled left unity, as you now find unity with the Tory Taffia of Plaid Capitalist & people who are nationalists who are hostile to socialism, you are in no position to lecture. Nationalism is cross-class, Plaid Cymru (or as we now term them, Plaid Capitalist - The Party of Capitalism) has a right wing, a centre & a left wing. I want to belong to an organisation that just has a _left_ wing!

As I saw it,the demise of the SA arose from the ego-clash/power struggle between the two biggest groups in it, SP and SWP, ironically as is often the case, this wasn't really a necessary split, there was no real reason why these two groups couldn't have continued to collaborate, if the leaderships had been more flexible. The SP walked out after they lost a vote in England that, to my understanding, wanted the Socialist Alliance to adopt a structure of being a federation of socialist groups and also wanted to curtail the power of the largest grouping within the alliance, the SWP. The SWP criticised this idea of a federal structure because it discriminated against the people who belonged to no organisation other than the SA. In Wales, they stormed out after justifiable criticism of their behaviour, for example, of running an election campaign as a Socialist Party campaign handing out and distributing Socialist Party literature and leaflets rather than WSA literature and leaflets, and failing to recruit anyone to the Alliance. The Socialist Party in Cardiff South wanted to stand a WSA candidate under the name they contest elections  "Socialist Alternative" rather than Welsh Socialist Alliance, this was somewhat bizarre - imagine if every group in the WSA had followed suit. Having said that, it was disappointing to see their departure, and the WSA was pretty much dead in the water after that.



> From what you say the small Plaid group has extracted some key concessions from the Lib Dems - in reformist terms that's what you'd call a result.



Not really, they have wrung some populist concessions. A school in their voting stronghold will be kept open, all their demands are related to West Cardiff where their voters live. According to my contacts in Cardiff West, the opposition to school closures from Plaid in West Cardiff was pretty half-hearted. In reformist terms, they would need to have got a lot more for it to be termed "a result". 

To be fair, with the exception of the new Leader of the Plaid group in Cardiff, Neil McEvoy, none of the other 6 Plaid Councillors claim to be socialists, but if Plaid were a left wing party, then to be propping up the LibDems would be totally unacceptable. Indeed, a coalition would be unthinkable. If there were 7 Socialist Councillors in Cardiff, rather than entering into a coalition with the ruling party, they would be positioning themselves as a party of struggle and opposition to the status quo at County Hall and Cardiff Bay.


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## Udo Erasmus (May 13, 2008)

> Fuck me, Udo. Would that be the Land of Green Ginger that closed down almost 10 years ago?



Don't want to be contentious, but I think it was around 2003/4 that Land of Green Ginger shut down after a brief two years when it changed management twice. The original manager, Seb Coe's brother, died of a heart attack when jogging.


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## llantwit (May 13, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> Don't want to be contentious, but I think it was around 2003/4 that Land of Green Ginger shut down after a brief two years when it changed management twice. The original manager, Seb Coe's brother, died of a heart attack when jogging.



Good bit of Cardiff ephemera. But we had that conversation in 1999-2000, as I'd just started my MA in Cardiff. Weirdly, I remember it too.


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## Udo Erasmus (May 13, 2008)

The guy who ran it, had a heart attack. Because he had been jogging, he didn't have any ID on him & wasn't identified until three days after his death.
I first came across Mr Ninja here, there was a little Cafe at the side, in the early days that became a barbers after.

A bit of a dearth of Second-hand bookshops in Cardiff now. There used to 3 others in Roath/Cathays area - Albany Books on Albany Road, Dalton Books initially run by a quiet French guy, then by Canadian Mike & Roath Books on City Road. Apparently one of the secondhand bookshops in the Arcades may be closing due to rents rising in relation to the St Davids development.


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## Udo Erasmus (May 13, 2008)

llantwit said:


> But we had that conversation in 1999-2000, as I'd just started my MA in Cardiff. Weirdly, I remember it too.



It was somewhat akin to this (one and a half minutes in):


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## Udo Erasmus (May 13, 2008)

*Lib Dems and Plaid set for a coalition in Cardiff*
May 13 2008 by Martin Shipton, Western Mail 

THE Liberal Democrats and Plaid Cymru are entering into “full negotiations” towards a coalition to run Wales’ largest council.

Positive talks are said to be fully under way and being conducted in a relaxed and professional atmosphere.

Cardiff council’s Liberal Democrat group leader Rodney Berman said: “Both we and Plaid Cymru are fully committed to delivering the best for local people and we both share a strong belief in the importance of good service delivery.

“From our discussions so far, it is very clear that we believe we can work together in the interests of the local electorate and deliver on our shared vision for a cleaner, greener and safer capital city. By combining forces I believe that not only can we provide Cardiff with a stable administration for the next four years, but we can also put forward a good, strong agenda that will deliver real improvements in local services.”

Plaid group leader Neil McEvoy said: “Discussions have been full and frank; grown-up politics if you like. The main thing is to put Cardiff and its people first. It has been refreshing to talk things over with Rodney without the usual nonsense that can go on. Politics can be too confrontational and I am happy to say that this is not the case here. We’ve all got on well and if we fail to reach agreement, it will be down to policy alone. I’m positive, but there is a long way to go. Even if we fail to agree on a coalition, I expect a much more positive relationship in future.”


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## lewislewis (May 13, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> To be fair, with the exception of the new Leader of the Plaid group in Cardiff, Neil McEvoy, none of the other 6 Plaid Councillors claim to be socialists, but if Plaid were a left wing party, then to be propping up the LibDems would be totally unacceptable. Indeed, a coalition would be unthinkable. If there were 7 Socialist Councillors in Cardiff, rather than entering into a coalition with the ruling party, they would be positioning themselves as a party of struggle and opposition to the status quo at County Hall and Cardiff Bay.



That's exactly the point. The Socialist Party will never have 7 councillors elected in Cardiff. Ever. Neither will the Left Party, the Communist Party, or any other far-left group.

However, people of that persuasion might find themselves in a position to change things (or to save a school, perhaps) if they abandon the sect mentality and try and work with wider forces. When you did attempt this you made a much worse and much less socialist job of it than Plaid ever has done.

I have always said, i'll come on here to talk about the reformist, electoralist, mainstream stuff we're doing in Plaid, and you can talk about the revolutionary, anti-corporate stuff you're doing in whatever association you're with. I think the work I support will help more people's lives and communities than the work you are doing.
Saving Cantonian is a price worth paying to go into coalition with the Lib Dems. We have had major disagreements with the Lib Dems but have to accept the election result and that alot of people in Cardiff felt that they weren't doing that bad a job.
Similarly, when we took a thrashing in Gwynedd we stated that the people had spoken and the schools reorganisation plan up there would have to be revisited.
This behaviour is more democratic than your fantasy-land stuff and the SWP's well known tendency to wreck campaigns it takes part in.

And at the same time there are people on here from the non-electoral, anti-corporate tradition who are not wasting their time attacking Plaid because they're actually out doing something constructive (my mates go to their gigs!).

You can come back and lecture me on the anti-corporate takeover when you can demonstrate that more than ten people in Cardiff agree with you.


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## lewislewis (May 13, 2008)

To add to this, Plaid's vote increased all over Cardiff, we must be doing something right. Jesus, it's not as if we're fighting illegal wars or attacking immigrants.

Glad to see Neil McEvoy as leader, although I still think he'll be something much more significant than a local councillor in the future.


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## Udo Erasmus (May 14, 2008)

Lewislewis makes some valid points, though, putting myself in his shoes, if I considered myself a left wing member of Plaid, I would be arguing against a coalition with LibDems. If Plaid want to present an alternative to the mainstream parties (I don't personally think they are) then entering a coalition will mean that they have their hands tied behind their backs and be associated with any cuts that are made.



lewislewis said:


> That's exactly the point. The Socialist Party will never have 7 councillors elected in Cardiff. Ever. Neither will the Left Party, the Communist Party, or any other far-left group.



The radical left has or has had councillors in Preston, East London, Birmingham, Coventry, Bolsover, Lewisham, Stoke and 6 Members of the Scottish Parliament. There is no objective reason why in certain circumstances a socialist councillor couldn't be elected in Cardiff or anywhere else in Wales. Of course, most people who are disaffected with a mainstream party will vote for an alternative mainstream party, even if the alternative is not particularly different.

There is also a contradiction: The mainstream parties have all converged around a consensus. However, excluding the issues of law and order & migration, most people are to the left of this consensus.



> However, people of that persuasion might find themselves in a position to change things (or to save a school, perhaps) if they abandon the sect mentality and try and work with wider forces.



The question is what kind of wider forces?
What beat back the attempt to close 22 schools in Cardiff last year was not Plaid Cymru, but a grassroots movement of parents, teachers and pupils. Indeed, according to left wing comrades of mine, Plaid dithered over opposing the closure of Cantonian, tried to capitalise on the opposition movement by organising a "Forum" meeting, lots of parents turned up, to hear speeches from the politicians who didn't call for any escalation of action but rather another boring meeting . . . in two months!



> I have always said, i'll come on here to talk about the reformist, electoralist, mainstream stuff we're doing in Plaid, and you can talk about the revolutionary, anti-corporate stuff you're doing in whatever association you're with. I think the work I support will help more people's lives and communities than the work you are doing.



A valid point, but let's be honest you're only tinkering. I remember having a conversation with an ex- "left" Labour Councillor who had once been a member of a small trotskyist group in the 70s. This Councillor was stating that they had achieved far more as a local councillor for 15 years than they did as an activist in the International Marxist Group for ten years. Having lived in the same ward as this councillor for half of that time, I can safely say the achievements were not particularly noticeable (though Labour have been preferable to the current LibDems), I thought, "What have you achieved? You were a conscientious councillor, some people respected you, but you haven't made any fundamental change to the set-up, or helped organise those who want to fight back against the status quo, or even built a grassroots left wing movement in Roath"




> We have had major disagreements with the Lib Dems but have to accept the election result and that alot of people in Cardiff felt that they weren't doing that bad a job.



Will you accept the election result when we have a Tory government? 

I think it is more that people hate New Labour whether at national level or Russell Goodpay's administration than are enthusiastic about the LibDems.

We should also remember that voter turn-outs are going down. Party Politics no longer inspires much enthusiasm among most people. Things were different when there seemed to be an ideological clash between Labour and Tories.

The Western Mail recently had an article arguing that the new "Coalition" politics in Wales was a sign of European politics, I see it rather as the collapse of politics. The development of coalition politics is a reflection that there is no fundamental ideological clash between the diferent parties. Can one imagine Aneurin Bevan calling for a rainbow coalition of Tories, Nationalists & Liberals. Such a situation is actually unhealthy for democracy and working class representation.


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## Udo Erasmus (May 14, 2008)

Most people are deeply unhappy with the current terrain of politics post-Thatcher: Longer working hours for less pay, for less job security. The rail, water, electricity & gas companies making record profits while hiking up bills. Local services being cut. Nothing to do for young people, who then roam the streets until they have an ASBO slapped upon them. The symptoms of social alientation result in increased crime. The neoliberal offensive has also led to an increased commodification of women and a rise in sexism, it has led to a dumbing down of culture and wisdom, and degredatiion of human dignity. Community spirit is gone down the pan. Traditions of solidarity lost.

My gut feeling is that joining one of the mainstream parties is not going to help buck the trend of neoliberalism, as none of these parties are really up for organising the kind of fightback that is needed to really get things moving.

To me, the various social movements against the war, the anti-globalisation movement, and particularly the small increase in strikes and trade unionism offer some sign of hope.

At the moment there are whole swathes of Britain where there is no left wing presence.

While it was never ideal, the Labour Party was at one time a mass working class organisation with members on every street and in every community. There were all kinds of activist working class organisations - trade unions, shopsteward networks, tenant associations. This kind of organisation has now collapsed and it is neccesary to start to build these movements from scratch.

Such a task shows the way forward. It is an urgent task, but one sign of hope is that we can build movements that are no longer tied into the reformist machines and that can have a more radical edge.

Such grassroots fightbacks, in my opinion, can begin to lay the basis of building a new coalition to represent the working class, basing ourselves not on the ballot box, but pushing forward this idea of collective action. I advocate also standing in elections, because most people still see standing in elections as the mainstream form of politics, and the kind of door-to-door work enables people both to bring socialist ideas to the doorstep and get feedback from working people, but the aim is to use the elections as another forum to build grassroots, community organisations.


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## lewislewis (May 14, 2008)

Udo, the radical left had 6 members of the Scottish Parliament at a time when those members of parliament actively campaigned for Scottish independence!

They didn't get 6 SWP members elected to the parliament.

Perhaps by entering coalition with the Lib Dems we can reverse some of the cuts or privatisations, Cardiff Bus for example, i'm sure we can save that. It isn't as if Neil McEvoy is going to come out in favour of privatising it. A coalition at local government level is based on critical support on certain issues. I don't know what consensus you refer to but I think Plaid is the most leftward of the four mainstream parties in Wales (i.e the only 4 parties that currently have any influence). I think there is a UK political consensus inherited from the Thatcher era that the welfare state will be reduced or privatised, and that Plaid and the SNP are the only elected parties to break from that consensus and argue that the welfare state should be preserved and improved. Both administrations involving Plaid and the SNP have reversed privatisation of public services to an extent and also increased the welfare state in the areas in which they have influence (i.e concessionary rail travel for disadvantaged people was extended by Ieuan Wyn Jones the other day). Both Scotland & Wales are building new world-class hospitals using public funds (in Wales at Ystrad Mynach and in Scotland at Govan- which will be one of the most advanced hospitals in Europe*). This would be unthinkable in England where the preparations are, contrastingly, to build 'Foundation Hospitals' which discriminate against disadvantaged communities.

People do hate New Labour, but when Rhodri Morgan coined the term Clear Red Water, Labour actually won a majority of seats in the National Assembly. It is only by being a left party that Labour can win in Wales, and part of this must be to openly challenge Gordon Brown in key areas. Labour's failure to challenge Brown recently is why the Welsh Labour vote collapsed two weeks ago, and Plaid gained.

Your final paragraph is ridiculous. You have a right-wing British perspective. 



Udo Erasmus said:


> The Western Mail recently had an article arguing that the new "Coalition" politics in Wales was a sign of European politics, I see it rather as the collapse of politics. The development of coalition politics is a reflection that there is no fundamental ideological clash between the diferent parties. Can one imagine Aneurin Bevan calling for a rainbow coalition of Tories, Nationalists & Liberals. Such a situation is actually unhealthy for democracy and working class representation.



This is so misguided it's almost unbelievable. It is far healthier to have a competition of a plurality of political parties as is the norm in Europe, where incidentally the working classes have more rights than in Britain, more trade union rights, usually more sophisticated welfare states and a better share of wealth (the UK is one of the most unequal societies in Europe). Also there could be an argument (which i haven't got time to build upon) that workers on the mainland (particularly in Western Europe) do not have right-wing attitudes so deeply engrained as they have in Britain where the archaic two-party system holds sway.

You need to abandon the Brit Left SWP perspective, otherwise you'll get nowhere and before you know it it'll be 2012 and time to put up 3 "Left List" candidates for the whole of Wales again. Great. 


* http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2008/apr/23/nhs.health2


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## Udo Erasmus (May 15, 2008)

lewislewis said:


> Your final paragraph [On Opposing "Coalition Politics" - Ed] is ridiculous. You have a right-wing British perspective.
> 
> This is so misguided it's almost unbelievable. It is far healthier to have a competition of a plurality of political parties as is the norm in Europe, where incidentally the working classes have more rights than in Britain, more trade union rights, usually more sophisticated welfare states and a better share of wealth (the UK is one of the most unequal societies in Europe). Also there could be an argument (which i haven't got time to build upon) that workers on the mainland (particularly in Western Europe) do not have right-wing attitudes so deeply engrained as they have in Britain where the archaic two-party system holds sway.



Yes, but what is the point if you have a plurality of parties that while having a difference of emphasis, share the same basic philosophy? I'm sure that in the event of Plaid propping up the Tories in Westminster, we can expect Adam Price MP once more to abuse the name of Antonio Gramsci and explain how this is related to "hegemony", "historic blocs", "National-popular democratic movements" etc.

Workers have more rights in Europe because the trade union movement in the 70s was demoralised by being attacked by the Labour Government & the role of the Communist Party in derailing the Left, this laid the ground for the unions being smashed by Thatcher.

The idea that right-wing attitudes are deeply engrained in workers in Britain is false. In the early 1970s, Britain had an extremely militant labour movement that even brought down the Heath government, British workers who now work the longest hours for the worst pay in  Western Europe were once deemed to be the laziest in the West (something to be proud of!). 

Throughout the years of Thatcher's government, social surveys registered majorities in favour of left-of-centre policies like taxing the rich, nationalisation etc.

Even today, excluding issues of law and order & migration, most people are left-of-centre on many key issues.

So I'm not sure where you get off claiming that there are deeply engrained right wing tendencies in the British working class? 

I don't really favour this fluffy nonsense in the Senedd where they sit "in the round". Whoever thought up the layout of the House of Commons got it right. 
Adversarial is right. There are two classes.There are two sides. There should be a clash between the party of the rich & party of the workers, with the two opposing sides lined up against each other. (Though a bit of a problem that the Party of Labour has always attacked workers when in power and predicated itself as representing "the whole nation", rather than the section of society who voted for it).

A system of proportional representation is more democratic (relatively speaking). It also gives an opportunity for smaller parties to have a voice. It is harder for a radical left party to make a breakthrough in Britain than many European countries because of the first-past-the-post system here.

But there is a bit of a difference historically in Europe. In a country like Italy, say for example, Red Bologna in the 70s, you would have a Communist Council in coalition with the Labour Party (PSI) and maybe supported outside by some far left councillors. A coalition of parties which would all claim to be of the left. This is a different style of coalition say to a rainbow alliance of Plaid, Labour, LibDems and Tories where parties that claim to be of the left, shack up with parties that are unashamedly pro-business, pro-capitalist.

The difference is in Britain, coalition politics arises because Labour has moved to the right abandoning its traditional voters. In this vaccuum, the traditional clash between Tories and Labour on local councils has been replaced by a mish mash of different parties and independents.

The fact that the mainstream parties find it so easy to form coalitions with each other is not a sign of pluralism, but rather of how little really divides them. 

Returning back to Italy. The Italian left is still recovering from the debacle of the coalition that Rifondazione formed with Prodi. The idea was that to stop the Right wing in the form of Berlusconi, the radical left had to unite with the equivalent of New Labour. Trouble was the strategy resulted in disaster with Berlusconi now back in power, and the left discredited and in disarray. From 2001, Rifondazione, had played a positive role in Italian politics, regularly getting around 5% of the vote, by tapping into a small majority of radical workers, it could have built bridges with the wider working class, and it attracted much admiration for it's role in anti-war mobilisations, the anti-globalisation movement of Genoa & the European Social Forum. As part of the coalition, Rifondazione voted for neoliberal attacks on working people, for troops to be sent into Afghanistan etc. and managed to cut itself off from it's supporter base.

For a socialist organisation, a coalition is an anathema. As to Cardiff Bus, it is unlikely that the sell-off is going ahead - already put on hold before the election. After I wrote a letter to the Echo, Labour and Plaid came out against it, and the LibDems realise that it might not be popular.


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## Udo Erasmus (May 15, 2008)

lewislewis said:


> Udo, the radical left had 6 members of the Scottish Parliament at a time when those members of parliament actively campaigned for Scottish independence!
> 
> They didn't get 6 SWP members elected to the parliament.



You seem to be implying that the SSPs succes was due to their misaguided nationalism rather than their popular pro-working class policies. Indeed, the downfall of the SSP was when they increasingly began to tail the SNP losing their own distinctive identity. I also believe that the sucess of the SNP wasn't due to a surge of nationalism, but rather that to traditional Labour voters, the SNP seemed to be to the left of New Labour.

I'm not sure what your point about the SWP is? There are 4 members of the SWP who are councillors in England today. Half of the Scottish MSPs came from a background in the Militant Tendency, Tommy Sheridan considers himself to be a trotskyist.

PS. I will reply to more yr more substantial points another time. I'm kinda hungover.


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## ddraig (May 15, 2008)

Plaid Lib Dem Pact for Cardiff
no pfi
and a day off for St David's day
http://www.plaidcymru.org/content.php?nID=14;ID=592;lID=1


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## niclas (May 15, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> After I wrote a letter to the Echo, Labour and Plaid came out against it, and the LibDems realise that it might not be popular.


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## lewislewis (May 15, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> For a socialist organisation, a coalition is an anathema. As to Cardiff Bus, it is unlikely that the sell-off is going ahead - already put on hold before the election. After I wrote a letter to the Echo, Labour and Plaid came out against it, and the LibDems realise that it might not be popular.



So how come you backed Respect- The Unity Coalition and actively tried to promote it in Cardiff? Lol.


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## lewislewis (May 15, 2008)

ddraig said:


> Plaid Lib Dem Pact for Cardiff
> no pfi
> and a day off for St David's day
> http://www.plaidcymru.org/content.php?nID=14;ID=592;lID=1



Good read. A series of progressive ideas that will make Cardiff a better place to live. I am especially looking forward to the council actively supporting the Yes campaign for the next referendum on the Assembly. We're on the rise!


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## lewislewis (May 15, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> You seem to be implying that the SSPs succes was due to their misaguided nationalism rather than their popular pro-working class policies. Indeed, the downfall of the SSP was when they increasingly began to tail the SNP losing their own distinctive identity. I also believe that the sucess of the SNP wasn't due to a surge of nationalism, but rather that to traditional Labour voters, the SNP seemed to be to the left of New Labour.
> 
> I'm not sure what your point about the SWP is? There are 4 members of the SWP who are councillors in England today. Half of the Scottish MSPs came from a background in the Militant Tendency, Tommy Sheridan considers himself to be a trotskyist.
> 
> PS. I will reply to more yr more substantial points another time. I'm kinda hungover.



No but their clear national position (not nationalism- the SNP is the nationalist party, SSP was/is the socialist party) contributed to their success.

The SNP in power are to the left of New Labour in the same way Plaid Cymru is.

My point about the SWP is that it is well known for dismantling or attempting to take over organisations it takes part in, such as the Welsh Socialist Alliance, Stop the War coalition, Respect etc etc. And outside of internet forums like this nobody knows who the SWP are. You're a waste of time.


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## Udo Erasmus (May 15, 2008)

I think many ordinary people regard the SWP as left wing lunatics.

But it could be worse.

Most ordinary people regard mainstream political parties with contempt.


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## Udo Erasmus (May 15, 2008)

Is the Labour/Plaid Coalition who control the Vale of Glamorgan Council going to refuse planning permission to the biggest PFI in Britain, the UK Military Academy?

So are Plaid demanding an end to ALL school closures in Cardiff?
Or just that the school in the area where they have councillors is saved?

Hopefully you are learning the lessons from Gwynedd Council.

This was the only Council controlled by Plaid Cymru in the whole of Wales, until the voters kicked them out in May.

In power, you showed your true face, you carried out the biggest school closure programme in Wales, as part of a programme of cuts, cuts and yet more cuts. Cuts to culture, job cuts, cuts to schools, cuts for the eldery and most vulnerable in our community.




> The council is now making an extra £4-5m worth of cuts on top of already making £4m worth of so called ‘efficiency savings’. Closures and mergers of schools have been the big headline grabber in the area, but so has the ending of funding to the Gwynedd Museum and Art Gallery in Bangor. There are also expected losses of 300 jobs and a day centre for the elderly is set to close in September, as well increases in parking charges and a 4.8% rise in council tax.



Unfortunately, our experience of Plaid Councils in Wales has been very unhappy.

In 1999, Plaid Cymru won control of Rhondda Cynon Taff council by opposing cuts in services and on the back of a local campaign against a filthy and dangerous local rubbish tip. In opposition, Plaid promised to close the tip immediately. In power, they reneged on this promise, and propose to solve the council's financial problems by sacking workers. 

This story is repeated wherever Plaid have won power.

More recently, In coalition with the Tories on Bridgend Council you have been responsible for sweeping cuts to home care for elderly and disabled people and to free school buses and education. It's the same old story.

Having said that, if the coalition keep to their word, then the ruling out of PFI is a step foward. 
But one wonders what the Council will do, if for example, the Assembly squeezes their budget - fight back, or cut back?

All the evidence suggests "cut back"!


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## lewislewis (May 15, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> Is the Labour/Plaid Coalition who control the Vale of Glamorgan Council going to refuse planning permission to the biggest PFI in Britain, the UK Military Academy?
> 
> So are Plaid demanding an end to ALL school closures in Cardiff?
> Or just that the school in the area where they have councillors is saved?
> ...



Don't be stupid. You have no idea how Plaid ran Gwynedd council. The school plan wasn't part of any 'programme of cuts' what a stupid thing to say. Job cuts? Huh? No such thing happened. 

Plaid actually reversed RCT's financial problems with aplomb. Before Plaid took over, the First Minister at the time was about to hand control of the authority to unelected commissioners because it had been mismanaged so much by his own party. They also built new services for young people most of which are still in use today. Plaid allowed local people to be elected to the council as opposed to the usual Labour mafia. By the time Plaid turned it around the council actually received an award for the healthy state of its finances.

'In coalition with the Tories on Bridgend' we had one councillor there for gods sake. Sort yourself out.


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## chilango (May 15, 2008)

Udo, what was yer opinion on the mooted Lib Dem/Respect coalition in Tower Hamlets?


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## Udo Erasmus (May 16, 2008)

chilango said:


> Udo, what was yer opinion on the mooted Lib Dem/Respect coalition in Tower Hamlets?



There was no mooted coalition, except from a journalist. But the position of Respect (The non-George Galloway section) is to oppose any coalition with a neoliberal party on principle. I should note that not a single Respect Councillor from either faction has voted for or supported neoliberal cuts and privatisation unlike Left Labour, Greens, Nationalist Councillor have done.


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## Udo Erasmus (May 16, 2008)

lewislewis said:


> Don't be stupid. You have no idea how Plaid ran Gwynedd council. The school plan wasn't part of any 'programme of cuts' what a stupid thing to say. Job cuts? Huh? No such thing happened.



This is stupid. The school plan was very much part of a programme of cuts.

What happened is that the budget of  the Plaid Gwynedd Council was cut by the Assembly (where Plaid are in power - LOL!). 

Was the response, "Fightback" or "Cutback"?

The response of the local council was not to agitate against the Assembly, but rather to introduce a package of cuts, which included closing schools, closing an old peoples home, cutting funding to museums and the arts and proposed job cuts that may not happen now that Plaid has taken a hammering.

Gwynedd is significant, because it is the only Council where Plaid has held power in the last 4 years.


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## Udo Erasmus (May 16, 2008)

Lewislewis, if you don't believe me that Plaid's record in local government is poor, then you just need to read some of Niclas's writings before he moved rightwards that document their failings.

It will perhaps be more significant how the LibDems are presenting their deal with Plaid.

Suffice to say, the kids will be asking a few questions :

1) It is clear that Plaid have brokered a deal that they will support the programme of further school closures in Cardiff, in exchange, for a school being kept open in their patch. Is this a good thing?
2) The commitment to ending any further privatisation and PFI is to be welcomed, but it seems largely a rhetorical statement?
3) Does this coalition mean my Council Tax bill is going to go down, or is it going to be hiked up again, as it has under Labour and the Libdems?
4) Is this new coalition going to stop the attack on our culture seen in the harrasment of venues like The Point and the Toucan from the Council?
5) Will the new Coalition end the harrasment of flyposterers?

Your more substantial and interesting claim will have to be dealt with later.

Essentially, Lewislewis is arguing that their is a "new left reformism" being created by the nationalists as witnessed in reforms introduced in Wales and Scottland such as abolition of prescription charges, PFI being placed on hold in the NHS, the SNPs move to abolish Council Tax, and get Trident out of Scottland etc. Of course, this is self-dellusion as both the SNP and Plaid are very clear that they are wedded to the neoliberal orthodoxies, in Edinburgh, 5000 people recently marched against Council Cuts.

The problem is if you canvassed a ward in Cardiff and a ward in Bristol, you would find the same issues coming up. Clearly, workers don't feel that the Welsh Assembly is making much of a substantial diference in their lives witnessed in the fact that most people didn't vote in the Assembly elections.

The other problem is the contradiction that any reforms introduced can do very little to tackle the huge deprivation in Wales, the fact that wages are lower than in England. To actually begin to shift things would necessitate a break in Plaid and Welsh Labour's approach as I will elaborate in a future post. But their approach is that to confront New Labour head-on would jepoardise the tepid reforms that they have introduced. This is the central contradiction.

Another key question is the role of the Plaid Left. It is clear that, historically, the Labour Left have been far more robust: Prepared to organise against the leadership, cohered around a magazine and forming a more organised current, prepared to criticise the party and fight within it.

Yet do we see for example, the Plaid Left, holding the leadership and party in Anglesey to account for its support for nuclear power? Or openly agitating against the leadership? What is the Plaid Left saying about Adam Price's comments on the Tories? If Niclas, believes that socialists should join a mainstream party, how is he fighting for socialism within it. The capitulation of the Plaid Left over the Military Academy speaks volumes.


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## Udo Erasmus (May 16, 2008)

*Parents vent fury as coalition is agreed*
May 16 2008 by David James, South Wales Echo 

A COALITION of Liberal Democrat and Plaid councillors took power in Cardiff last night – and provoked a furious controversy over schools reorganisation.

Parents, a deputy governor and opposition councillors spoke out in anger over proposals that Plaid’s new deputy leader of the capital put at the heart of the Welsh nationalists’ aims for Welsh- language teaching in the city.

After the Liberal Democrat-led coalition’s executive was elected, deputy leader Neil McEvoy told the full council meeting at City Hall the coalition was committed to building a new Welsh-language primary school in Canton by 2011 and saving English-language Lansdowne primary.

He said: “This is an historic day for the Welsh language in Cardiff.

“With the Welsh Liberal Democrats, we will meet the demand for Welsh-language education in the city while supporting English-language schools.

“A new primary school will open in 2011 and Lansdowne will be saved.”

The proposals were at the heart of a tub-thumping speech in which Coun McEvoy said Cardiff council would campaign for a “yes” vote in a referendum on further powers for the National Assembly.

Plaid’s party leader, Deputy First Minister Ieuan Wyn Jones, also came to the start of the meeting at City Hall to congratulate the party’s council group.

But opposition councillors accused the Lib Dem/Plaid coalition of prejudicing the on-going consultation on the controversial schools reorganisation, putting other schools in the city at risk and creating controversial proposals without taking any advice from officers.

Former Labour leader Russell Goodway said: “You have undermined the integrity of the whole process.”

Parents and a deputy governor at Canton’s Welsh-language school, Ysgol Treganna, were also angry as they said they said the plans would consign their children to cramped, inadequate teaching facilities for a further year.

Deputy Governor Kathryn Walters said: “Nobody has been consulted on this at all.

“I am quite outraged.

“Many of the staff are quite shocked by it. We understood it was still in the middle of the consultation process.”

Sarah Manners, chairwoman of the Treganna Supporters’ Committee, said: “All parents and children of primary age in Canton face yet more worry and uncertainty, especially those with children in Welsh-medium education.”

Speaking afterwards, Coun McEvoy said the one-year wait for a new facility would be worth it as it would not involve closing the English-language Lansdowne primary.

He said: “The one-year delay is worth it for community cohesion. We must not pit one language against another. We all live in Cardiff and we are all Welsh.”

Council leader Rodney Berman, who spoke first to the city council meeting, said the coalition with Plaid would provide “a stable administration for the next four years”.

He added: “It gives us an opportunity to really focus on improving the services that matter most to local taxpayers.

“We will no longer be so distracted by opposition groups, particularly Labour, putting their own political concerns ahead of what’s best for local people – a strategy that completely failed to pay off for Labour as the recent elections results can testify.

“This is a truly radical programme that will not only prioritise on frontline service but will place environmental considerations right at the heart of the council’s agenda.”

CARDIFF COUNCIL’S NEW LINE-UP

ALL the following are Lib Dem unless stated:

Leader: Rodney Berman

Deputy Leader (social justice): Judith Woodman

Deputy Leader (economic development): Neil McEvoy (Plaid)

Education: Freda Salway

Environment: Margaret Jones

Finance: Mark Stephens

Health: John Dixon

Sport, Leisure and Culture: Nigel Howells

Transport: Delme Bowen (Plaid) 

Key committee chairmen and women:

Planning: Patricia Burfoot

Children: Bill Kelloway

Economic: Gwenllian Lansdown (Plaid) 

Environment: Simon Wakefield

Schools sub-committee: Rodney Berman


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## osterberg (May 16, 2008)

lewislewis said:


> The SNP in power are to the left of New Labour in the same way Plaid Cymru is.



 Since you mentioned the SNP,here's what they're getting up to with their coalition partners,the Lib Dems in Aberdeen.

 £27 million in cuts.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/north_east/7246341.stm


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## lewislewis (May 16, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> *Parents vent fury as coalition is agreed*
> May 16 2008 by David James, South Wales Echo
> 
> A COALITION of Liberal Democrat and Plaid councillors took power in Cardiff last night – and provoked a furious controversy over schools reorganisation.
> ...



If only the parents had 'vented their fury' at the elections, where both Plaid and the Lib Dems gained seats on very clear platforms with regards to schools?

In fact, the only alternative mooted for enthusiasts for Welsh-medium schooling was to vote for the Lib Dems. 

There seems to be a more or less positive outcome in which there will be concessions for education in both languages.


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## lewislewis (May 16, 2008)

osterberg said:


> Since you mentioned the SNP,here's what they're getting up to with their coalition partners,the Lib Dems in Aberdeen.
> 
> £27 million in cuts.
> 
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/north_east/7246341.stm



I'm sure they are making mistakes just like any mainstream party. Perhaps they will learn from Plaid's mistakes in Gwynedd, although the Gwynedd situation certainly doesn't sound as disastrous as this programme of cuts.


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## Karac (May 16, 2008)

Udo can rant and rave-but to a certain extent his views are mainly Britleft-and all the imperialist baggage that goes with that.
What would he do?
The tiny sectarian grouplets he supported have gone down the bog


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## osterberg (May 17, 2008)

lewislewis said:


> I'm sure they are making mistakes just like any mainstream party. Perhaps they will learn from Plaid's mistakes in Gwynedd, although the Gwynedd situation certainly doesn't sound as disastrous as this programme of cuts.



 Just mistakes? That's alright then.

 " Aberdeen's Bon Accord Baths is set to close down 
Aberdeen City Council's decision to make £27m of cuts as well as a council tax freeze has led to angry reaction. 
Funding is being withdrawn from several care organisations, and social work services, sports centres and libraries will also be affected. 

The art deco Bon Accord Baths - the city's oldest pool - is to close down, as is the children's farm at Doonies. 

It is feared the charity Alcohol Support may be forced to withdraw from a pioneering service which provides accommodation. 

The homeless charity the Cyrenians has also had its level of funding cut to such an extent that up to four centres in the city may have to close. "

 I learned to swim in that pool

There may be some on the left in Plaid and the SNP who are on the left but they are "mainstream" parties and they organise within the frame work of capitalism.

 It's not for nothing that the SNP in the North East of Scotland were known as "tartan tories".

 And don't get me started on the SNP's sucking up to Donald Trump.

 I'd happily work with nationalists on the left in campaigns. Can't support their parties,though.


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## osterberg (May 17, 2008)

There is a fightback.
http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=14617

Round-up
Thousands march against cuts
Up to 8,000 people marched through Aberdeen last Saturday against proposed cuts of £27 million by the city council. 

The council appears to have targeted some of the most vulnerable sections of the community, both in grants to the voluntary sector and its own in-house services. 

A broad coalition of the organisations affected, with support from Aberdeen Trades Union Council and Grampian Senior Citizens Forum, organised the march.

Marchers braved atrocious weather conditions, including blizzards of snow and sleet. Shoppers applauded the march, which stretched the length of Union Street, as it passed.


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## Udo Erasmus (May 17, 2008)

Karac said:


> Udo can rant and rave-but to a certain extent his views are mainly Britleft-and all the imperialist baggage that goes with that.
> What would he do?



No my thinking is always orientated towards those at the base of society, always.

Imperialist baggage? Yeah, That would be like Adam Price MP calling for Iraq to be partitioned - somewhat colonalist, Karac? Or Plaid Cymru supporting the UK Military Academy in Wales that will train the latest recruits to imperialist wars. Or the Leader of Plaid in the House of Commons, who in 2001 said he would support airstrikes against Afghanistan? As to Brit-Left, I think the correct term is internationalist left. Or rather socialist left. 

Of course, let's not mention that both Alex Salmond, leader of the Nats in Scotland & Adam Price MP, leading Nat in Wales have said in the event of a hung parliament after the next general electoin they would be prepared to bloc with the Tories in parliament!

You see for the Nats, Brit-Right is no problem!


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## Udo Erasmus (May 17, 2008)

*It seems that the first act of the new LibDem/Plaid Coalition on Cardiff Council has been to award themselves a pay rise!* It's okay for council staff to be having their wages cut back, but the well paid politicians must be paid a little more.

The fightback documented by Osterberg is very heartening, such a movement is the basis for building a new fighting coalition to represent the working class.


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## Karac (May 17, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> No my thinking is always orientated towards those at the base of society, always.
> 
> Imperialist baggage? Yeah, That would be like Adam Price MP calling for Iraq to be partitioned - somewhat colonalist, Karac? Or Plaid Cymru supporting the UK Military Academy in Wales that will train the latest recruits to imperialist wars. Or the Leader of Plaid in the House of Commons, who in 2001 said he would support airstrikes against Afghanistan? As to Brit-Left, I think the correct term is internationalist left. Or rather socialist left.
> 
> ...



Adam Price campaigned against the Iraq war from day 1
Jill Evans has spoken out against the St Athan training academy and i support her stance-pretty brave seeing as no other mainstream politician in Wales has dared to do so-and to be fair Plaid put her points on the front page of its newspaper-


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## Udo Erasmus (May 17, 2008)

Karac said:


> Adam Price campaigned against the Iraq war from day 1



This is true. Though like Plaid as a whole for a long time he seriously fudged the issue of pulling the troops out of Iraq. But his credibility will have been damaged among anti-imperialists by his call for partition (that obviously was such a great success in Ireland, India/Pakistan/Bangladesh, Cyprus, Israel/Palestine and elsewhere)

So do you think it okay for a Politician sitting in the parliament of a state that is occupying another country, to call for that country to be partitioned, when the people of the occupied country oppose it? Do you think that people in the occupied country might not find such statements somewhat colonialist and patronising. Price should read _Orientalism _by Edward Said. He incidentally campaigned for Raytheon to come to Wales.



> Jill Evans has spoken out against the St Athan training academy and i support her stance-pretty brave seeing as no other mainstream politician in Wales has dared to do so



I wouldn't say brave, but certainly she is the only politician in Wales to have shown any principles, and deserves respect. Shame that the Plaid-Left came out looking so bloody spineless!

But not sure why you then mention Plaid? Or  how her political party is relevant? Plaid Cymru's offical position was to welcome the Academy one year ago. Hey Karac, Can you point me to any public or printed statements made by any of Plaid's 200+ Councillors, 3 MPs or 15 Assembly Members opposing the Military Academy? I can find several supporting it . . .

I'm sure as the campaign gains momementum the odd Labour and Plaid politician will crawl out from behind the sofa.

But I would appreciate it if you retract your slur implying that I in any way have imperialist baggage NOW, as I have illustrated the Socialist Left in Wales can hold it's head-up-high. The nationalist "Left" . . .!


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## lewislewis (May 18, 2008)

It's all well and good holding your head up high i'll concede that, but it is a waste because the far-left could only muster about ten candidates out of thousands of seats in the elections. All the far-left parties together combined had less candidates than the BNP on its own in Wales as far as I know.


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## Socrates (May 18, 2008)

Plaid, Labour, Plaibour - all the bloody same.
Politishuns, who needs 'em!


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## Dic Penderyn (May 18, 2008)

I read that in Swansea the socialists, communists and left parties all stood against each other in the same ward! 
Anyone confirm this? 

Seems bloody daft to me, Do you expect your average voter to research the difference between your various strains of leftie politics?


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## Udo Erasmus (May 18, 2008)

If you have 4 capitalist parties on offer, then surely for parity you should have 4 socialist parties on offer? As Lewislewis says, pluralism


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## lewislewis (May 18, 2008)

Udo Erasmus said:


> The fightback documented by Osterberg is very heartening, such a movement is the basis for building a new fighting coalition to represent the working class.



I thought that was the Respect coalition?

Or was that a cross-class movement? I forget now.


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