# On this thread we have seen Episode III



## Lord Camomile (May 19, 2005)

I know there are already a number of threads on Episode III but I thought that so as not to spoil it for those who haven't seen it whilst allowing those who have to discuss it there should be a thread where it's clear from the outset that if you read it you will find stuff out about the movies, inculding major plot points, key scenes and whether the bastard was any good or not.

So, if you don't want to know the score, look away now


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## Lord Camomile (May 19, 2005)

Was half way through writing a big ol' post about what I thought of the movie and my PC crashed 

Useless pile of junk


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## Bonfirelight (May 19, 2005)

episode three of what?

is this another desperate housewives thread?


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## peppery (May 19, 2005)

Its Episode 3 of celebrity love island


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## Lord Camomile (May 19, 2005)




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## layabout (May 19, 2005)

Well, I've just got back from the cinema and I must say.

IT'S A FUCKING MASTERPIECE!!!!!

Just go and watch it. It's fucking mental and at times, outragous. No other saga could have gotton away with I've just seen.


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## layabout (May 19, 2005)

Just dawned on me this is ONLY REALLY the thread for people who've seen it.

Can't contain my excitement!


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## Lord Camomile (May 19, 2005)

Right, can't be bothered with a coherent bit of prose anymore, it just aint happening, so I'm just gonna post whatever I can think of and maybe post more later *hopes this thread will pick up once more people have seen it.... *

Overall feeling is that it was easily the best of the prequels but still ultimately dissapointing. This movie is it, the legcay we shall be left with, no chance to make it better, and because of that you really do feel the could (should) have done better.

One of my major gripes is, of course, Anakin. Anakin's story is the key to the whole movie, if not the entire saga and so really needed to be done well. And a numbe rof things means ultimately it felt less than what was needed.

A big part of this for me was the rushed and seemingly lacklusture nature of Anakin's turn to the dark side. I can't understand why they left it till the final half of the trilogy to really get into it. Lucas has infamoulsy said that he painted himself into a corner by calling A New Hope “Episode 4” when really he only had enough material for one prequel but I think he could easily have documented Anakin’s decent into hell and conversion to the dark side in much more detail across the whole trilogy and had three much better movies. If it had happened little by little, over the course of the entire trilogy, it would have been both more believeable and satisfying.

Also, I think his transformation into Darth Vader should have been more gradual. Like his hand in AOTC, they should have had him lose a leg here, a vital organ there; slowly, slowly becoming "more machine than man" and also losing his humanity. To have him just totally fucked up in a huge fireball (a scene which was *fucking dark* for Star Wars, I really am genuinely surprised they put that in  ) was a mistake.

As for the birth of Vader, I thought it was absolutely fantastic until he spoke. I'm still not sure if allowing the audience to see the view from inside the mask was a good idea but I liked it, thought it was interesting. Also, as the mask decended onto Anakin's face I thought he actually looked scared, a nice touch which gives the impression he's in over his head in regards to the dark side and is still quite young and unready for it all. The final sealing of the mask and the first 'Vader breath' was great, really worked and was what everyone was wating for. _However_, the beauty of this moment was totally destroyed when Vader spoke... Darth Vader should not show emotion!!! His lack of emotion (apart from anger and hate) was one of the key aspects of what made him so scary and evil in the original trilogy and this just ruined it. I suppose it could be argued that it shows that it is, at this poitn at least, still Anakin inside the mask, but as soon as he struck the melodramatic pose and cried "Nooooooooooooooo!!!!!" I slapped my forehead and thought exactly the same thing.

Another massive problem for me was Christensen. The man would be out-acted by a log. Granted he had the problem of having to recite Lucas' infamoulsy poor attempts at 'dialogue' but at least the rest of the actors managed to convey something like the relevent emotions whilst spouting them. Christensen was just monotone boring crap. To be fair, I did think he managed to look mean and moody quite well, and looked suitably more wretched as he decended more and more into hell (helped no doubt by the make up department).

Following on from this, Anakin's prime motivation for turning to the dark side - his love for Padame - was totally undermined by the appaling lack of anything like a romance between the two. Aside from Christensen's lack of acting ability Lucas clearly cannot write love scenes _at all_.

So far, so bad, but there really was enjoyable stuff in there too. Yoda was once again brilliant; I know a lot of people had a problem with Yoda zip-zapping all over the place but I quite enjoyed that and there's more in this one  A small note of contention is that Yoda does seem even more syntax-busting than normal, bordering on the ridiculous. "A prophecy . . . that misread could have been" ffs!

I also thought the nods to the original trilogy were on the whole done well, and generally served to link the two trilogies.

Ian McDiarmid as Palpatine is great, hamming it up something awful but really working. His scarring at the light-sabre of Windu was great, and after that he really was the Emperor from the original trilogy, all pure evil and nastiness.

I think the movie still suffered from the same thing the last two did: the lack of a Han Solo type character. In the original trilogy he was able to make the quips and be the regular guy. Without a similar character it has generally been left to the Jedis to make the quips and that is quite simply wrong!! Jedis shouldn't be making jokes, they should be noble and aloof!

Something I realised on the way home is that a lot of the dramatic and emotional in the movie worked because of what we know about the original trilogy. Because we know where this is all leading, what happpens next, we invest in it a meaning and emotion that I don't think would be there in the movie on it's own. 

Anyway, there's much more but I have to go to work. I relaise most of this has been having problems with the movie but I did like a lot of it, I'm just much better at saying what's wrong with a movie than what's good, I'm sure as more people see it and recount the good bits I'll join in the fun 

Definitely gonna see it again soon though


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## Lord Camomile (May 20, 2005)

From over on the other thread:






			
				layabout said:
			
		

> People lose limbs, one person is decapitated and you see his head come off. There are some really evil and grusome scenes. If you brought an eight year old to see that film, they'd piss em selves with fear.



Lucas does seem to have a thing for dismemberment. Off the top of me head:

Luke's hand in Empire.
The bantha's hands in Empire
The angry dude in the Mos Eisley (apols for spelling) loses his hand in New Hope.
Anakin's hand in Clones.
Dooku's hand's in Sith.
Dooku's _head_ in Sith.
General Grevious' hands.
Mace Windu's entire arm (IIRC).
Anakin's legs.

There's something odd going on here.....  

Also, barely any bloody between the lot of 'em! I suppose the light sabre's cartarise the wound....


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## DarthSydodyas (May 20, 2005)

The scene at the end of the duel is magnificent.


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## Lord Camomile (May 20, 2005)

Yes, you're right, it is very good. I meant to put that in my uber-post but didn't have enough time.

I thought McGregor did really well there, and I think the fact Anakin couldn't reply helped the scene (for a number of reasons ). This was actually one of the scenes that I think was aided by us projecting what we know of the original trilogy but having said that I think it stands as a good moment on it's own.

It's almost this that hurts though, you just can't help imagining what the scene would have been like had we really believed in the characters and their relationship; it would have been awesome. As it was we had to have Obi-Wan say it, instead of us knowing and feeling it.

Of course, if that's the bit you mean....


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## layabout (May 20, 2005)

The space fight at the start was amazing, especially the way the camera (OK we know in CGI there is no camera) pans around following the 2 jedi ships through what is one huge battle.

I love the robot humour and R2's antics on General Grevious' ship, where the best the our little droid friend has ever done.

The way Palpatine turns Anakin to the dark side may seem rushed, but the whole film has to pack in lots into 2 hours, 20 minutes. Remember, you have to keep thinking back to at least Attack Of The Clones. I keep reading about people complaining that the story is somehow compressed into Ep 3 and not told in 1 and 2. That is not the case, people are just not making the connections. For instance, lots of people are saying that Anakin turned too quickly, for instance, one minute he saying "What have I done?" (After knocking off Mace), the next he is killing Jedi Younglings. You see, Palpatine asked Anakin to remember what happened with his mother . People assume, that Papatine ONLY mentioned that, to make Anakin fear losing Padme, like he did his mother. It wasn't just about losing his mother, it was about what happened when he avenged for his mothers death.  Remember? He killed all the sand people including their children. Morally the sand peoples children are no different to the jedi younglings, both are young innocents. Once you've crossed the line and killed innocents as part of revenge, then I would assume, it's very easy understand how someone would kill innocents in order to protect the ones you love, both now and ever more.

Ewan McGregor acted well and got everything spot on. Palpatines transformation was as twisted and evil as I could have hoped for. Ian McDiarmid stole the show IMHO.

The "Code 66" part of the film was quite sad and a real warm moment was when Chewbacca picked up Yoda and carried him on his back. It was real nice as it was right after the attempt on Yoda's life. 

The battle between Yoda and Palpatine was amazing. Yoda rocked. The way he took out Palpatines guards certainly made me laugh and was totally unexpected.

The light saber duals were the best yet. Even Count Douko packed a punch. As for the Obi-Wan Anakin duel on that hell like planet - amazing.

The only part of the film I was thinking "hmmmm" to, was Obi-Wan chasing General Grevious on that lizard thing.....that's the one thing I found a bit too outragous.

There was so much that happened in that film. It was relentless. I make it the best ever Star Wars film ever. That's not an outragous view. A lot of Star Wars fans are coming to the same conclusion as me. For most people, the best out of the lot, is either The Empire Strikes Back or Revenge Of The Sith.


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## DarthSydodyas (May 20, 2005)

Lord Camomile said:
			
		

> Yes, you're right, it is very good. I meant to put that in my uber-post but didn't have enough time.
> 
> I thought McGregor did really well there, and I think the fact Anakin couldn't reply helped the scene (for a number of reasons ). This was actually one of the scenes that I think was aided by us projecting what we know of the original trilogy but having said that I think it stands as a good moment on it's own.
> 
> ...


  Yes, that's the scene.

On the fan sites, additional dialogue appeared for this scene, where Anakin pleads for Obi-Wan to save his life, and also screams at Obi-Wan how much he hates him.  It could have worked this way, but the silence was far far more chilling.


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## Lord Camomile (May 20, 2005)

layabout said:
			
		

> The space fight at the start was amazing, especially the way the camera (OK we know in CGI there is no camera) pans around following the 2 jedi ships through what is one huge battle.


 That was good good fun, though again, the camaraderie between Anakin and Obi-Wan didn't seem to work.




			
				layabout said:
			
		

> The way Palpatine turns Anakin to the dark side may seem rushed, but the whole film has to pack in lots into 2 hours, 20 minutes.


 But that's what I am saying, Lucas should have put it in the whole trilogy, not left it to the last film.




			
				layabout said:
			
		

> Remember, you have to keep thinking back to at least Attack Of The Clones. I keep reading about people complaining that the story is somehow compressed into Ep 3 and not told in 1 and 2. That is not the case, people are just not making the connections. For instance, lots of people are saying that Anakin turned too quickly, for instance, one minute he saying "What have I done?" (After knocking off Mace), the next he is killing Jedi Younglings. You see, Palpatine asked Anakin to remember what happened with his mother . People assume, that Papatine ONLY mentioned that, to make Anakin fear losing Padme, like he did his mother. It wasn't just about losing his mother, it was about what happened when he avenged for his mothers death.  Remember? He killed all the sand people including their children. Morally the sand peoples children are no different to the jedi younglings, both are young innocents. Once you've crossed the line and killed innocents as part of revenge, then I would assume, it's very easy understand how someone would kill innocents in order to protect the ones you love, both now and ever more.


 Yes, I do remember this, and I did get the relevance at the time but I also remember thinking it wasn't grounded enough, by which I mean the point of it seemed to get lost somewhat.




			
				layabout said:
			
		

> The battle between Yoda and Palpatine was amazing. Yoda rocked. The way he took out Palpatines guards certainly made me laugh and was totally unexpected.


 I did very much like their fight  Like I said earlier there are lots of people who have a problem with this and in all fairness I can totally understand it, I do even have some reservations about it myself. However, I think it works to establish Yoda as a powerful jedi and shows him in his prime (possibly, when exactly _was_ Yoda's prime  ). Add to this McDiarmid's fantastically evil and mental Palpatine and it was one very cool fight. I also thought you could feel Yoda's almost desperation, he and we both knew just how important it was that Palpatine was stopped, and yet ultimately that it would not happen.




			
				layabout said:
			
		

> The light saber duals were the best yet. Even Count Douko packed a punch.


 I have to say I was a little disappointed Count Dooku wasn't in it more. He's supposed to be a mighty powerful jedi, the big baddie of the second movie, and they killed him off in the first twenty minutes!! It wasn't even a particularly spectacular fight, I thought after an initial flourish Dooku went down way too easily. I would have much preffered him to continue further on into the plot.

I've just realised that the finale to his film was very odd in that we had two mega-showdowns between good and evil and yet we knew explicitly that not one of the participants was going to die. Still, managed to make them pretty exciting all the same


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## Lord Camomile (May 20, 2005)

DarthSydodyas said:
			
		

> Yes, that's the scene.
> 
> On the fan sites, additional dialogue appeared for this scene, where Anakin pleads for Obi-Wan to save his life, and also screams at Obi-Wan how much he hates him.  It could have worked this way, but the silence was far far more chilling.


 Actually, I think he did scream that he hated him, but it was kind of muffled by the "I'm in extreme pain" acting so I wasn't sure.


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## DarthSydodyas (May 20, 2005)

When Palpatine fights Mace Windu, did he lose deliberately, in an attempt to seduce Skywalker, or was this a case of the Jedi Masters being too good for our Sith Lord?

The Yoda vs Sidious fight seemed to paint a weak picture for Sidious.  At one point, Yoda absorbs the lightening from Sidious but actually pushes it back at him (just as Mace did with his saber).  But Yoda falls from the pod and the fight breaks up.


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## Lord Camomile (May 20, 2005)

DarthSydodyas said:
			
		

> When Palpatine fights Mace Windu, did he lose deliberately, in an attempt to seduce Skywalker, or was this a case of the Jedi Masters being too good for our Sith Lord?


 Very good question. I'm not sure. I think I'd like to believe that it was just because Windu was too good, but that _is_ only just what I want to believe, no reasoning behind it.

Will defnitiely have to look out for that one next time I see it...


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## peppery (May 20, 2005)

Episode 3 was good, but nowhere near as good at the OT, but certainly much better than the other 2 prequels.

I personally found the space battle at the beginning far too busy, there was way too much going on. Ithink Lucas was just showing off.

Too many villians, Grievous was totally uneccessary and useless. THey should have expanded the Dooku role. 

ANd yes they rushed Anakins transition to the darkside. They should have spent more time on the seduction rather than the pointless battle with Grievous.

The film improved markedly from Order 66 though. This is really what we'd been waiting for. I atually though Vader screaming at the end when he finds out Padme had died to be an important scene. At that point he's still Anakin and not Darth Vader, the emotion is still there, the human is still there.

All in all worth watching but too much packed into too short a time.


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## DarthSydodyas (May 20, 2005)

I recall reading a snippet of a EU book (or something), where Vader is battling another Sith (?) Lord and Vader defeats him.  The other Sith Lord turns to Vader and asks him why he is so powerful, he says his anger makes him powerful.  His anger towards himself.


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## the B (May 20, 2005)

Grievous is there for the *real* fans who also watched the Clone Wars cartoons (which are actually better than possibly all of the films as 'good work'... they are actually amazing cartoons and I'd strongly recommend you watch them because they add to see Episode III an awful lot).

Vader's dialogue... disappointing.

Battles - top whack. Was Dooku too easy? Not really, two of the best jedi out there... Anakin is much more powerful now  Was Windu better than the Emperor? It seemed like it and it should be like that in my opinion... throughout, you see the Jedi Masters 'correct' with all their thoughts and slowly but surely reaching the truth of it all. Had that little Anakin kid done what the Masters told him... it would have all been ok!

Overall - too much in so little time... it's partly why they created they Clone Wars cartoons - Lucas realised he had completely shafted himself and needed an extra 25 or so 9 minute cartoons to actually complete the plot in a glorious way!

Some parts of the 'script' appear to have been cut. There were additional scenes relating to the beginning of what would become the Rebel alliance through various Senators chatting away...


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## blamblam (May 20, 2005)

Camomile - agree with your sentiment mostly... I've not seen eps 1 + 2 cos not a huge fan, still was a good film with some ace moments (First use of the "Empire" music "Dah-dah-dah, du dee-daa, etc.", mask going on), seeing the technology at just pre-ep 4 was great too, the clones uniforms and pre X-wing fighters (although of course if both sides started with the same technology why did only the rebels end up with x wings and the empire those pod ones?).

Shame was Anakin's move to the dark side unbelievable cos there was no sense of any meaningful relation ship with Natalie portman. Oh and Anakin looked exactly like 888 who posts here. Was surprised at how political it was - a couple of very big swipes at the Republican administration, War on Terror etc., especially the "If you're not with us ... ... ... ... you're an enemy" which really stood out cos of the way it jarred with your expections, but the message was still obvious.


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## bouncer_the_dog (May 20, 2005)

So Darth Sidous had a master before him who could use the force to create life eh? Thats interesting. And if the Emperor said that it 'had only been done once before' then that meant he was lieing when he said they could save padme. But it also implies that Anakin was formed by the darkside powers of Darth summink or another the wise and this is all a grand plot. 
And were was the ghost shape of Qui Gonn Jinn? I wanted to see that. But at last the 'strike me down and i shall become more powerful than you can possible imagine' line is explained. And also the mystery as to why some jedi sort of dissapear when they die and others don't. Italso seems to be the jedi equivilent of 'making life from midclorins' that the Sith tend to do.....
Anyway plenty of darkside/lightside explaination there which I was pleased to see. But when Anakin turns into darth why does he shout 'nnnoooooooo' that sounded ridiculous. A simple 'rrrraaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagghhhhhh' would have sufficed.  And whay did they pussy out with the 'Your either with me or................ my enemy' line. Anyway the final lightsaber fight was great and Anakin got mashed up pretty well IMO. It was quite horrible.   Another couple of Sith films would be nice!
I have been waithing for Anakin to get mashed up in one go on a lava planet since a long long time ago! 
But I think Windu was hard enough to do over the emperor. It is Sith Lord vs. Jedi Master as in the case with Yoda vs. Sidous, so they are evenly matched


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## fubert (May 20, 2005)

bouncer_the_dog said:
			
		

> But it also implies that Anakin was formed by the darkside powers of Darth summink or another the wise and this is all a grand plot.



ah, but the chosen one or whatever you want to call them, who will according to some prophecy bring balance to the force was concieved of midicholorins, or so was said or implied in ep 1. and vader, when he kills the emperor in 6 returns balance to the force. i think. 

 

and i think the way that vader is treated means that in 4,5,6 he should be seen as more of a tragic character than an evil one "i *must* obey my master" etc..


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## bouncer_the_dog (May 20, 2005)

'Prophesy misinterpreted be might'

And then again its rather Sith like for master to eliminate apprentice...


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## fubert (May 20, 2005)

bouncer_the_dog said:
			
		

> 'Prophesy misinterpreted be might'
> 
> And then again its rather Sith like for master to eliminate apprentice...



aye but when he chucks the emperor down that shaft or whatever killing him everything is set to rights and the universe becomes a fluffier place.


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## Lord Camomile (May 20, 2005)

Bloody hell, that's a mighty good point!

 +  and a big slap on the forehead for myself.

(I woulda noticed eventually, honest....  )






			
				bouncer_the_dog said:
			
		

> 'Prophesy misinterpreted be might'
> 
> And then again its rather Sith like for master to eliminate apprentice...


 True, but in the Vader - Palpatine case Vader does it for good, not to gain power for himself.

Though you do wonder how Palpatine keeps Vader in check for so long when he's supposedly hugely more powerful than any other jedi (*J*edi?) or Sith


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## bouncer_the_dog (May 20, 2005)

Well it could be explained in the context of Ep.III that when Vader watches Luke get fried by the E. that he has a kind of Padme flash back and questions his entire route to the darkside and decides not to let history repeat itself... He sees that the emperor lied to him and misled him and so he chucks him down a power shaft. Vader having been kept in check by a total belief in the empire, corruption of the darkside, self anger/hate and being on the side thats allowed to kill ewoks.


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## Lord Camomile (May 20, 2005)

bouncer_the_dog said:
			
		

> being on the side thats allowed to kill ewoks.


 

I think that would make sense that Vader hasn't risen up against the Emperor before because of his loyalty to the Empire and his own self-hate. It would seem that in the end he may be all powerful but he ain't all that smart...


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## Kid_Eternity (May 20, 2005)

layabout said:
			
		

> Well, I've just got back from the cinema and I must say.
> 
> IT'S A FUCKING MASTERPIECE!!!!!
> 
> Just go and watch it. It's fucking mental and at times, outragous. No other saga could have gotton away with I've just seen.


 You know for a Tory you can be quite cute!


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## fubert (May 20, 2005)

and you've got the old yoda "fear leads to anger, hate, suffering" blah blah

(the only english sentence he says perfectly) 

so when you first hear that you think "oh yeah, all them people having a hard time under the evil empire and its dark lords and masters" when he was talking more about personal suffering  

regardless of why vader killed palpatine, the point is he still did it. maybe he knew he was fucked anyway and didn't want his son to share the same fate..


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## Lord Camomile (May 20, 2005)

Right! As soon as this essay is done I'm going back to watch th OT! I'm not letting all you people get ahead of me in the astute observations stakes


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## fubert (May 20, 2005)

Lord Camomile said:
			
		

> Right! As soon as this essay is done I'm going back to watch th OT! I'm not letting all you people get ahead of me in the astute observations stakes



can i recommend a big phat spliff for before and perhaps during.

the whole "the son of skywalker" thing in 5 as well, shows that the emperor doesn't consider vader to be anakin at all. remember, it's anakin who's the chosen one, not darth vader. if you see what i mean. i reckon the emperor is using anakins guilt to keep him down.


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## bouncer_the_dog (May 20, 2005)

I think Palpatine has quite a good point about perception of the force being based on a point of view. Doesn't Obi Wan make a reference to points of view in ep.Iv (ill have to check, maybe its at the end of empire). The Sith and the Jedi are v.similar. It would be a easy choice to make if you are a jedi. The problem of being a jedi is that yoy get undone by continual fence-sitting because taking action can mean wandering down the darkside. Windu's 'hes too dangerous to live' is a darkside type thing to say. And tips Anakin over the edge, because he has already been in the situation with Dooku and the stuff Palpatine says about the Jedi 'lies' clicks. So the Jedi in every day business appear to get by along some kind of 'don't mention the sith' type way of doing things. If there was an equal amount of knowledge of Sith ways as opposed to jedi ways there would probably be loads of Siths all over the place as bored Jedi go bad. Anyway you need a Sith empire every now and again to clear oput the dead wood.


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## fubert (May 20, 2005)

...and don't even get me started on all the subtle "moment of realization" crap that occurs during the luke and vader duel in 6.

(which is the best lightsaber duel ever btw )

and the whole dark side point of view thing echoes of obi-wans explanation to luke of how he considered darth vader to have murdered his father when he was explaining why he never told luke.

also in iv ;

"there's too much of his father in him"
"that's what i'm afraid of"


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## Lord Camomile (May 20, 2005)

bouncer_the_dog said:
			
		

> I think Palpatine has quite a good point about perception of the force being based on a point of view. Doesn't Obi Wan make a reference to points of view in ep.Iv (ill have to check, maybe its at the end of empire).


 Yes, it's in either Empire or Jedi, but he's talking about Vader killing Anakin. Luke is all pissed because Obi-Wan told him Vader killed his father but Vader's just told him that he _is_ his father, so Luke goes to Obi-Wan and says "what's all this about then??" and Obi-Wan says that what he told Luke was the truth, "from a certain point of view".

I did think it was an odd way to put it in Sith because it's a fairly well known scene from the first trilogy and yet they're talking about different things (aren't they? This essay is taking all my analytical skills so I'm pretty sure I'm missing shitloads in this convo  )


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## fubert (May 20, 2005)

it's also pretty safe to suggest that palpatine knew what anakin could potentially become, after the "we will watch your career very closely" comment in i.

oh and a sith won't off his apprentice until they have a replacement "always two there are, no more, no less" so i can't see one killing his henchman then slapping an ad up in the job centre "must own own lightsabre"


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## dlx1 (May 20, 2005)

Off to see the 14:50 show today   . I hope it better then the lates two.


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## DarthSydodyas (May 20, 2005)

fubert said:
			
		

> it's also pretty safe to suggest that palpatine knew what anakin could potentially become, after the "we will watch your career very closely" comment in i.


  Sidious boasts this point to Yoda, during their Duel in Ep3.  He said something along the lines of _he will become more powerful than you or I_.  Palps, just like Yoda, meditates to scan the force checking on possible future events.  The difference is that Palpatine's dominion is the Dark Side, something Yoda had trouble penetrating.

What bothers me is exactly why did Anakin/Vader remain inline with Sidious...?

If he did become more powerful, why did Vader not rise and remove his Master, in the age-old Sith tradition..?

I'm going to see this film again, tonite.  This time, I'm taking my brother-in-law with me.  He has only seen Episode 1 and 2, and is one of the few people who has not seen the original triologies.


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## Kid_Eternity (May 20, 2005)

DarthSydodyas said:
			
		

> I'm going to see this film again, tonite.  This time, I'm taking my brother-in-law with me.  He has only seen Episode 1 and 2, and is one of the few people who has not seen the original triologies.



That should be interesting, i've always wanted to know what that would be like, what they'd think of the original having seen the prequals first...


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## fubert (May 20, 2005)

DarthSydodyas said:
			
		

> What bothers me is exactly why did Anakin/Vader remain inline with Sidious...?
> 
> If he did become more powerful, why did Vader not rise and remove his Master, in the age-old Sith tradition..?



i think it's all about timing... think back to 5 ; "together we can destroy the emperor.." so maybe he was waiting for luke to come along and help him out. turns out he couldn't turn luke so the emperor had a go in 6 ; who clearly planned to have either vader or luke as the apprentice depending on who ended up chinning who.  

i guess vaders loyalty to the emperor just further emphasises how sad his story is. no will of own etc..


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## bouncer_the_dog (May 20, 2005)

Well it could be that when Sidious says to Anakin that together they shall find the power to creat life using the midclorins that they in many ways embark on a quest to find the ultimate power of the force. So Vader sticks with the Emp. to plumb the depths of the darkside. Therefore the construction and use of planet destroying battle stations is an excellent way to do Darkside type stuff. The idea that being a good Jedi could achieve this level of understanding of the force is not an option.

Faced with the choice would you a) wear brown robes and meditate a lot achieving balance to gain knowledge of the force b) tear round the galaxy blowing everything to bits to gain the power of the force (dressed in black).

Its a toughie, from a certain point of view.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (May 20, 2005)

I kinda thought that was Vader subconciously looking for a way out, he wanted Luke to help but couldn't bring himself to face what he had become.


----------



## the B (May 20, 2005)

DarthSydodyas said:
			
		

> Sidious boasts this point to Yoda, during their Duel in Ep3.  He said something along the lines of _he will become more powerful than you or I_.  Palps, just like Yoda, meditates to scan the force checking on possible future events.  The difference is that Palpatine's dominion is the Dark Side, something Yoda had trouble penetrating.
> 
> What bothers me is exactly why did Anakin/Vader remain inline with Sidious...?
> 
> ...



Sidious was wise to the fact he might get 'backstabbed' by Vader... probably took a lot of precautions. After all, Vader is stuck in a suit that keeps him alive given to him by Sidious. He could do all kinds of crazy stuff with that kind of 'leash'.


----------



## fubert (May 20, 2005)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> I kinda thought that was Vader subconciously looking for a way out, he wanted Luke to help but couldn't bring himself to face what he had become.



that's pretty much the size of it imo also.


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 20, 2005)

Thinking about it I do get the feeling Vader was never all bad, and Anakin remained to the end. What made him powerful was also what held him back: his own self-hate. And you can't hate yourself if there's no good in you.

Something I can't remember: when does Vader find/work out Luke is his son? I'm pretty sure he doesn't know in A New Hope, because he only says "the force is strong with this one" not "shit, it's ma boy!". Granted they're both in space fighters and so he may not have got the best view, but you would have thought he'd be able to 'feel' his own son. Also, he probably got a decent look in the hanger as they escape from the Death Star, though his attention was rather on Obi-Wan.

_Also_, just thinking about it: that was the Death Star in Sith right?? Now Sith is set a good 15/20 years or so before A New Hope, but the Death Star only becomes fully operational during that film. The Death Star Mk I is blown to space dust at the end of A New Hope, so they then have to start all over again. Have they just got really quick at building space moons in the intervening time??? There can't be as much time between New Hope/Empire/Jedi as there is between Sith and New Hope, can there?


----------



## DarthSydodyas (May 20, 2005)

Vader never found out about Luke's true identity in the films, but I think it was between Ep4-5 where a rebel is captured and the identity of the guy responsible for destroying DS1 is revealed (skywalker).


----------



## DarthSydodyas (May 20, 2005)

the B said:
			
		

> Sidious was wise to the fact he might get 'backstabbed' by Vader... probably took a lot of precautions. After all, Vader is stuck in a suit that keeps him alive given to him by Sidious. He could do all kinds of crazy stuff with that kind of 'leash'.


 Sidious had backstabbed his master, and knew wot went around came around.  It seems to be the way of the Sith.  Yes, Vader was limited by his suit, but I got the feeling, from that Vader line, there was more to their relationship.  I was expecting the Emperor to be much much more powerful (or at least demonstrate this).  If not being more powerful (i.e. knowledgable), then perhaps having some other control over him - like his suit needing some kind of sustance that the emperor could withdraw with a mere thought.   

I'll watch the flick again and see how it comes across a 2nd time.


----------



## fubert (May 20, 2005)

DarthSydodyas said:
			
		

> Vader never found out about Luke's true identity in the films, but I think it was between Ep4-5 where a rebel is captured and the identity of the guy responsible for destroying DS1 is revealed (skywalker).



yeah yeah, never mind the additional fiction dude. stick with the films


----------



## Balbi (May 20, 2005)

I have one major problem with EIII.

"...she's lost the will to live..."

How fuckin toilet was that line, I would rather have had Anakin be responsible for the death of Padme as it would have heightened his fall into the darkside.

That and General Grievous was fucking shit, I expected more from four lightsabers in all honesty, not just have most of them lopped off in a minute or two. I know the Clone Wars cartoons explains it, but that's terrible Wachowski Brothers style filmmaking that is. As has been mentioned, Dooku should have been emphasised more I mean FFS it's Christopher Lee! Not like he can't act his arse off anyway is it now?

(did anyone else suspect that Grievous was the reincarnation of Darth Maul...? Just me hoping for that tie-in to make the Obi Wan v Grievous battle have a bit of oomph to it?)

The best scenes for me were the 'opera' with Sidious and Anakin, a real cracking bit of badguy work there from McDiarmid 

The other was the final scene between Anakin and Obi Wan, McGregor was absolute brilliance in screaming out all of his fear and confusion at Anakins turning.

Agree with the Yoda over syntaxing "Not if anything to say about it, I have" <-- Shite! And also thought Chewie was underused, I mean we all recognised the big furry bloke but he got a name only as Yoda flew off into space. 

Im damn certain the DVD will have a bit more on Kysshak (wookieworld) and definitely include Qui-Gon.

And because noone else has said it thus far, the film did not work because of the script really. John Williams is a *fucking legend* in my book. The score could not have been any more perfect.

Oh yes and Darth's 'NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO' was appallingly bad. The force crushing the fuck out of everything was brilliant, but personally I would have done it like this.

<emporer spiel about padme being killed by vader>

<vader declares he she was alive>

*crushey force stuff happens, accompanied by a roar, not a 'nooo' but a roar*

<pause, breathey effects...and then>

"so be it"


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 20, 2005)

TheLostProphet said:
			
		

> I have one major problem with EIII.
> 
> "...she's lost the will to live..."


Yes. That was shite. (forehead got slapped for that one too)




			
				TheLostProphet said:
			
		

> (did anyone else suspect that Grievous was the reincarnation of Darth Maul...? Just me hoping for that tie-in to make the Obi Wan v Grievous battle have a bit of oomph to it?)


 I can't remember if I've already posted this (Derren Brown is on so must rush ) but I never thought Lucas should have killed off Maul in Ep I. Darth Maul should have remained Sideous' apprentice until Anakin started muscling in on his place, then they have it out in a big-ass battle with Anakin taking Maul's place as the new apprentice. Would have had great Luke/Vader undertones and everything!!

And you're right, that would have made a much better ending to Vader's birth.

Lucas should _not_ have been allowed to write the stories, scripts or fucking notes to the photocopy guy. He completely messed up so many potentially great things


----------



## sipotential (May 20, 2005)

Ive seen the RED-NECK version of star wars ???
  It ends with the line
 " luke i am your father, and your uncle "


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## FridgeMagnet (May 20, 2005)

Packed with "war on terror" metaphors. "Only the Sith deal in absolutes"... just before that, I was convinced Anakin was going to say "if you're not with me you're against me", but instead he says "if you're not with me... (long pause) you're an enemy" which is just a cop-out. The Emperor and AnakinVader constantly talking about maintaining peace by conflict is significant too. A leader coming under an attack he inspires himself and using that as a chance to gain complete control....

Mind you - that could just be that TWAT is an expression of classic truths about human popular imperialist movements, and the film is just expressing that cliche. I've not got a lot of confidence that there's any depth in the overall storyline. Not given the clunking dialogue, sorry.


----------



## dlx1 (May 20, 2005)

sipotential said:
			
		

> Ive seen the RED-NECK version of star wars ???
> It ends with the line
> " luke i am your father, and your uncle "


 
---------

Yep it was better then the last two but that not hard.  
Ewan McGregor - when did he become the county gent. pip pip tally ho  
I think he acting is shit.

the cgi was good but the bit were Ewan McGregor ride the lizer thing look crap, didn't blend in with background.


Happy to have seen on big screen. not on computer


----------



## Balbi (May 20, 2005)

I think Lucas asked McGregor to be more Guinness than previously to link it in...

Imagine a Renton-wan Kenobi...

"..it's fuckin shit being a jedi!..."


----------



## dlx1 (May 20, 2005)

> TheLostProphet Imagine a Renton


I would like to Imagine him not in it atall


> Keanu Reeves school of woodcarving/acting


 think off Dusting Hofman


----------



## Balbi (May 20, 2005)

I thought he was the best they could have asked, unlike Christiansen he didn't come from the Keanu Reeves school of woodcarving/acting.


----------



## sipotential (May 20, 2005)

"  sith happen's  "


----------



## jayeola (May 21, 2005)

Too short with too much detail \or\ too long without good story. 
Grevious...wtf?
Padme (luke's mum) is *fit*
Darth.. grew up too quickly. like the way he burned.... 
yoda.. is he a bad boy jedi or not? why didn't he beat what's-his-face?


----------



## silentNate (May 21, 2005)

FridgeMagnet said:
			
		

> Packed with "war on terror" metaphors. "Only the Sith deal in absolutes"... just before that, I was convinced Anakin was going to say "if you're not with me you're against me", but instead he says "if you're not with me... (long pause) you're an enemy" which is just a cop-out. The Emperor and AnakinVader constantly talking about maintaining peace by conflict is significant too. A leader coming under an attack he inspires himself and using that as a chance to gain complete control....
> 
> Mind you - that could just be that TWAT is an expression of classic truths about human popular imperialist movements, and the film is just expressing that cliche. I've not got a lot of confidence that there's any depth in the overall storyline. Not given the clunking dialogue, sorry.


Indeed- the politics of chapter three are fascinating, the killing of the sepratists and Padme's political change following a disillusionment with a democracy which has been over-run by imperalism 
Lucas states that there was a Vietnam war influence from his generation though we can take it as fact that the movies were based in the move of Roman rule from Julius Caesars hope of a Republic to the Roman Empire run by Augustus (his adopted son, a relationship which is similar to that between Obi Wan and Anakin)....
This is unimportant when you realise how good the Revenge of the Sith is- having seen it tonight I am of the opinion that in the future it will be seen as the most important of the six and most certainly the darkest and pessimistic of them all. Palentine's strategy is revealed to magnifacent effect with the turning of Anakin being sad- I so wanted him dead as he expressed the neo-con ideas fridgemagnet has already spoken about.
The SFX are amazing- the fight at the beginning has the kind of CGI only other sci-fi movies can dream of. I can only beg you not only to see it but not to take any child under eight- this is quite adult with violent imagery that can only shock.
I say it is the best of the six movies- and will take on anyone that thinks different...
This is the problem, whilst George Lucas saved the best til last... It is now over


----------



## silentNate (May 21, 2005)

Kid Eternity said:
			
		

> If he did become more powerful, why did Vader not rise and remove his Master, in the age-old Sith tradition..?


Anakin kills the Emperor in the final episode- the prophesy is true and it is he and not Luke who, 'brings balance to the force' and renounces the dark side


----------



## upsidedownwalrus (May 21, 2005)

TheLostProphet said:
			
		

> I think Lucas asked McGregor to be more Guinness than previously to link it in...
> 
> Imagine a Renton-wan Kenobi...
> 
> "..it's fuckin shit being a jedi!..."



This was a funny email doing the rounds about six months before The Phantom Menace purporting to be a speech by McGregor:

Choose the force. Choose a side, Choose a jedi knight, Choose a teacher, choose a fucking big death star, choose star destroyers, blasters, tie-fighters and a light sabre. Choose a black suit, black helmet and boots.

Choose a loan from Jabba the Hut. Choose a philosophy. Choose an Emperor. Choose a planet with matching moon. Choose a three planet system in the Dromoda system and fucking enslave them. Choose the Rebels and wondering why the fuck you are kneeling by the Emperor on a Sunday morning.

Choose sitting next to that Emperor watching whole planets being enslaved in mind-controlling, force-crushing battles, stuffing fucking replacement parts into your body. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pissing your last in a miserable death star, nothing more than a dictator to the selfish, evil fucked up brats who fight for you.

Choose a future. Choose the Force.

I chose not to choose the Force. I chose something else - I chose the Dark Side.


----------



## the B (May 21, 2005)

jayeola said:
			
		

> Grevious...wtf?



See, Clone Wars the animated series was very important in explaining Grievious and a lot of people won't have seen it...

It explains lots of stuff really...


----------



## DarthSydodyas (May 21, 2005)

They screwed up on Grevious.  Very difficult to appreciate him.  Perhaps this was inevitable given the amount they were attempting to cover.


----------



## upsidedownwalrus (May 21, 2005)

I havne't seen it yet (don't know where its on in English and as yet the pirate DVd of it hasn't transpired).  But not too fussed about spoilers.

My overwhelming impression is that they tried to fit too much into too short a time.  Which is ironic when you consider that in the first two Lucas stretched what was basically 1 film of material over 2 films.  Goes to show he has no sense of pacing WHATSOEVER.


----------



## silentNate (May 21, 2005)

I disagree RenegadeDog- the film runs at a fair old pace which doesn't leave you time to draw breath... and that works for me. In fact I'd say that the pace is similar to Attack of the Clones so I really can't see what people are complaining about


----------



## upsidedownwalrus (May 21, 2005)

silentNate said:
			
		

> I disagree RenegadeDog- the film runs at a fair old pace which doesn't leave you time to draw breath... and that works for me. In fact I'd say that the pace is similar to Attack of the Clones so I really can't see what people are complaining about



Fair enough, I'll wait until I've seen it before properly commenting, but i thought the pace in the first two was all wrong, they wasted far ttoo long on the pod race in the 1st and the romance in the 2nd


----------



## silentNate (May 21, 2005)

Agree about the podracing though I enjoyed that the most. The problem with the romance in AotC was that it was badly done (Hayden can't act- fact!).
With RotS the film races past fast enough for there not be enough time to spare, I would have liked the conversation between Padme and Anakin on politics to have go on longer but I'm pretty sure I'm in the minority on this


----------



## the B (May 21, 2005)

There should be a lot more on the politics in a DVD release if they incorporate any deleted scenes, mostly to do with the foundation of the Rebel Alliance  Organa, Padme and others having secret chit chat mostly but at the pace RotS was going - just 10 minutes could mean an awful lot...


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (May 21, 2005)

just finished watching it overall not a bad film, much better than the previous 2 there are some terrible bit's in it and the old can write but can't say is so very ture infact it let's the overall film down (might have preffered no dialogue at all rather than the wooden shit lucas wrote...) but the story and pace are about right and at the end of it i did nearly go and watch ep 4 so i think it does lead right into it nicely...

the one thing that struck me is, and i'll admit is not the first thing is how does lando stay soooo young....


----------



## Balbi (May 21, 2005)

Garf, im not sure if you're taking the pish here...?


----------



## Kid_Eternity (May 21, 2005)

silentNate said:
			
		

> Anakin kills the Emperor in the final episode- the prophesy is true and it is he and not Luke who, 'brings balance to the force' and renounces the dark side


 eh? I never asked that question did I?!?


----------



## DarthSydodyas (May 21, 2005)

the B said:
			
		

> There should be a lot more on the politics in a DVD release if they incorporate any deleted scenes, mostly to do with the foundation of the Rebel Alliance  Organa, Padme and others having secret chit chat mostly but at the pace RotS was going - just 10 minutes could mean an awful lot...


 iirc, all the deleted scenes will be included on the DVD.


----------



## madzone (May 21, 2005)

Don't want to start a separate thread but I noticed in the paper that EIII is a certificate 12a. What does that mean?

edit* just googled it


----------



## internetstalker (May 21, 2005)

i was quite impressed, much better then i expected!!

pretty good actually!!

but.

that was not Darth Vader at the end!!

Hayden Christian shoulders were too low!!

should of brought back david prowse!!


----------



## Kid_Eternity (May 21, 2005)

DarthSydodyas said:
			
		

> iirc, all the deleted scenes will be included on the DVD.


 What deleted scenes?


----------



## DarthSydodyas (May 21, 2005)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> What deleted scenes?


 Qui-Gon (I think) and some political scenes which setup the rebellion for the original triology.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (May 21, 2005)

DarthSydodyas said:
			
		

> Qui-Gon (I think) and some political scenes which setup the rebellion for the original triology.


 Qui-Gon? What does he come back like Obi One in Empire to Luke?


----------



## DarthSydodyas (May 21, 2005)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> Qui-Gon? What does he come back like Obi One in Empire to Luke?


 Not sure.  Some conflicting reports suggesting Liam Neeson was not interested in voice-over stuff.  I think it was some cosmic-conversation between Qui-Gon and Yoda.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (May 21, 2005)

I see. God watching the Phantom Penis now; its still an utterly shite film imo...Lucas should be shot!


----------



## silentNate (May 21, 2005)

internetstalker said:
			
		

> should of brought back david prowse!!


Word- I share his anger and not being allowed his twenty minutes of cash 
The deleted scenes seem to add up to political commentary and slightly longer Wookie battle from the info I've seen, I'm sure we'll return to this


----------



## Kid_Eternity (May 21, 2005)

silentNate said:
			
		

> Word- I share his anger and not being allowed his twenty minutes of cash
> The deleted scenes seem to add up to political commentary and slightly longer Wookie battle from the info I've seen, I'm sure we'll return to this


 Got any links to that info Nate?


----------



## fubert (May 22, 2005)

i thought dave prowse had really bad arthitis now and couldn't play it even if he wanted to ?

"arise lord vader" <ccrrrrrrrrrrraaaaaaaacckkkkkkkkk>


----------



## silentNate (May 22, 2005)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> Got any links to that info Nate?


 Some bloke wearing a Blue Harvest t-shirt 
Not spoken to anyone who has seen it and wasn't impressed by RotS yet


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (May 22, 2005)

TheLostProphet said:
			
		

> Garf, im not sure if you're taking the pish here...?




no for once


----------



## Kid_Eternity (May 22, 2005)

Saw it last night, most of what I thought has been said on here...that bit when Obi One freaks out at Anakin while on the lava mountain side really worked for me. It actually felt quite real, like two friends ripped apart...the "Nooooooo" was bloody stupid (why Lucas why!?). Up until that bit the whole transformation scene was quite disturbing and done very well, especially liked it when he breaks free Frankenstiens monster like and the place rattle with his anger and he can't walk properly yet! But then he shouts nooooo and I was like what!? The effects were fantastic in this one particulary the ships and R2. All looked very solid and quite convincing in how they moved.

It was good they finally explained a few things most notably the thing about why some Jedis die and other can come back...I really hope there is a Qui Gon scene that gets added later because that would be excellent.

It had something more substantial too, even the bad acting and utterly, at times, shite dialogue was forgivable given the pacing and the events unfolding (just like with the original three); I really like that they offed Dooku so early becuase it set the right tone for the rest of the film.

I really didn't like how short the Wookie scenes were, they were almost pointless but hopefully a directors cut will come along and sort that out. It does link the two trilogys very very well too, at the end with the two suns setting I wanted to go straight home and watch A New Hope onwards!


----------



## Allan (May 22, 2005)

These are the final few hours or even minutes that I shall spend not having seen it. At the moment I have no memory of it, I don't know much about it, the images I've seen from it have no context and I still have the pleasure of seeing it for the first time to come. 

This will be the last new Star Wars movie I shall ever see.


----------



## mwgdrwg (May 22, 2005)

There's lots of people slagging off the "Nooooooooooo!". Isn't it similar to when Luke says "No No Noooo" in ESB? I think it's cool link between Episode III and V.

The reason people probably hate it is because that scene from ESB was so good it's been parodied many many times over the years and has lost something of it's seriousness.

Anyway, great film.


----------



## Allan (May 23, 2005)

Okay. Seen it now!


----------



## akirajoel (May 23, 2005)

i've seen it.

i've got but one word:



meh.


----------



## upsidedownwalrus (May 23, 2005)

akirajoel said:
			
		

> i've seen it.
> 
> i've got but one word:
> 
> ...



Argh!  The dreaded 'meh'word   

My housemates have just obtained a good quality copy.  I am going to purchase one from the same establishment tomorrow and watch AOTC and then ROTS in a row.

(watched phantom menace this evening, a film I reckon could be good if you were a very skilled editor and cut roughly one third of it out)


----------



## akirajoel (May 23, 2005)

i like ATOC.

its a lot more fun... "This party is over."   

ROTS - i really really love drak films - but it was sooooo boringly serious, for what - at the end of the day - is a kids film.

what it really needed was a Darth Vader scene at the end... where he shows up at the funeral and kills people (not just 'younglins' - deep sigh!) - just to show how far he ahd gone to the Dark Side........ that would have been cool.


----------



## Allan (May 23, 2005)

I dislike the way questions of continuity are just explained away in single lines.

"Qui-Gon's back. I teach you how to talk to him and he'll teach you how to  survive death."

"Wipe the protocol droid's memory.". Just like that. No reason why.

And why wasn't R2D2's memory wiped? And why don't Obi-wan and R2 recognise each other 20 years later on Tatooine? 

The penultimate shot is of the Death Star starting construction. 20 years later it gets a test firing so it's taken 20 years (Luke/Leia's lifetime so far) to build. But the new one in ROTJ takes a much shorter time to get half way built? I suppose they've had the practise on the first one and they're getting good at speed-building Death Stars!


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 23, 2005)

Allan said:
			
		

> The penultimate shot is of the Death Star starting construction. 20 years later it gets a test firing so it's taken 20 years (Luke/Leia's lifetime so far) to build. But the new one in ROTJ takes a much shorter time to get half way built? I suppose they've had the practise on the first one and they're getting good at speed-building Death Stars!


Already tried it: 



			
				Lord Camomile said:
			
		

> _Also_, just thinking about it: that was the Death Star in Sith right?? Now Sith is set a good 15/20 years or so before A New Hope, but the Death Star only becomes fully operational during that film. The Death Star Mk I is blown to space dust at the end of A New Hope, so they then have to start all over again. Have they just got really quick at building space moons in the intervening time??? There can't be as much time between New Hope/Empire/Jedi as there is between Sith and New Hope, can there?


 Apparently no-one has an answer...  

And I agree, there were a fair few points where Lucas seemed to be answering all the "how comes..." that have been around since the first two but with a barely satisfactory "that's how come "


----------



## Allan (May 23, 2005)

When you become as one with the Force and you have achieved enlightenment in all things then you will know that the answer to these and other deep, meaningful questions is.......








































Because.


----------



## DarthSydodyas (May 23, 2005)

Allan said:
			
		

> I dislike the way questions of continuity are just explained away in single lines.


 Agreed.  It was pretty vulgar.




			
				Allan said:
			
		

> "Qui-Gon's back. I teach you how to talk to him and he'll teach you how to  survive death."


  Total wank, in my book.  The whole ghost thing needed Qui-Gon to be there, because HE was the first to discover it (whatever its significance) therefore he should have been the first to be presented as a ghost, to us.




			
				Allan said:
			
		

> And why wasn't R2D2's memory wiped? And why don't Obi-wan and R2 recognise each other 20 years later on Tatooine?


  Old age, innit.




			
				Allan said:
			
		

> The penultimate shot is of the Death Star starting construction. 20 years later it gets a test firing so it's taken 20 years (Luke/Leia's lifetime so far) to build. But the new one in ROTJ takes a much shorter time to get half way built? I suppose they've had the practise on the first one and they're getting good at speed-building Death Stars!


  Yeah, unless they had started the skeleton of the 2nd one whilst they were near completion of the first... and, they got better at building.  Never explained in the films, just like Vader identifying Luke, but is it really that relevant that we need to see every other detail explained away?


----------



## Loki (May 23, 2005)

Oh dear, it's all getting nit-pickity now!

Another inconsistency: In Star Wars IV Obi Wan Kenobi says, "Kenobi.. now that 's a name I have heard since before you were born". Incorrect. Also, Kenobi hands young Luke a light sabre, allegedly a present from his father, which couldn't have happened seeing as they parted on the worst of terms.


----------



## Allan (May 23, 2005)

Loki said:
			
		

> Oh dear, it's all getting nit-pickity now!



Yes.

http://www.nitpickers.com/movies/repository.cgi?pg=t&sp=i&tt=304811


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 23, 2005)

Loki said:
			
		

> Also, Kenobi hands young Luke a light sabre, allegedly a present from his father, which couldn't have happened seeing as they parted on the worst of terms.


 I noticed this, but I figured it was just Obi-Wan 'protecting' Luke from the truth. Much nicer to tell him it was a present from the father he never knew rather than "I nicked it off him after I lopped his legs off and watched him burn alive because he had betrayed everyone who cared for him and become one of the most evil men in the universe. And he killed _younglings_!!!! ".


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (May 23, 2005)

Wish me luck.  I'm skiving off work to go see it.


----------



## Allan (May 23, 2005)

internetstalker said:
			
		

> should of brought back david prowse!!



Should HAVE.


----------



## Allan (May 23, 2005)

Something I can't quite work out: Are Padme and Queen Amidala the same person?


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 23, 2005)

That screwed with me too!! They're not, Padme is Amidala's maid and lookalikey. 

However, I'd gone through the whole prequel trilogy thinking that it was Amidala who had met Anakin on Tatooine in the Episode I, having gone undercover as Padme to keep an eye on the jedis. I still think Lucas did mean that in Episode I, but then changed it. Wouldn't be outside possibility wth him


----------



## Loki (May 23, 2005)

Lord Camomile said:
			
		

> I noticed this, but I figured it was just Obi-Wan 'protecting' Luke from the truth. Much nicer to tell him it was a present from the father he never knew rather than "I nicked it off him after I lopped his legs off and watched him burn alive because he had betrayed everyone who cared for him and become one of the most evil men in the universe. And he killed _younglings_!!!! ".


Yeah that was my excuse for it too; Luke wasn't ready to take on the horror of his father's atrocities at such a tender time. Still, it could have been plotted better.


----------



## Bob_the_lost (May 23, 2005)

Best bit was the "You were supposed to be the chosen one" part, Ewan did himself pround with that. I too would have liked a bit more gradual attrition of skywalker, but it'd have required a different tone to the entire movie, could have been done though.

I didn't like the fighter bit at the beggining, it just seemed like a waste of time for the most part, as well as a nice bit of CGI, it would have made more sense for them to be using Tie fighters, or at least be escorted by them etc.

A good film, better than 1 to 2, but how long do you think it's going to be before they remake 4-6?

*Ducks into flame proof bunker*


----------



## Loki (May 23, 2005)

Bob_the_lost said:
			
		

> Best bit was the "You were supposed to be the chosen one" part, Ewan did himself pround with that. I too would have liked a bit more gradual attrition of skywalker, but it'd have required a different tone to the entire movie, could have been done though.


Even in the three hour + illegal uncut version I've seen, Annakin gets converted to the dark side in a matter of minutes and a few words; could have been handled far more convincingly without slowing the film down IMO.


----------



## silentNate (May 23, 2005)

Loki said:
			
		

> Even in the three hour + illegal uncut version I've seen, Annakin gets converted to the dark side in a matter of minutes and a few words; could have been handled far more convincingly without slowing the film down IMO.


 Wrong- it was practically job done after he killed all the Tuskans. Anakin starts showing a lot less thought or remorse to what he has done throughout AotC and RotS...
I've stated my problems with the Jedi visiting Tatooine and not freeing the slaves previously, and being removed from ones mother whilst she remains a slave is always going to force you to question the Jedi's morals


----------



## Allan (May 23, 2005)

I've just checked IMDB and Natalie Portman's character is definately named Padme Amidala. I've just watched Ep 1 again on TV and there's a scene where they've arrived on Coruscant and little Anakin is walking behind Queen Amidala and yet Padme is there too and smiles at him as they walk along.

Then there are two scenes where Padme/Amidala are revealed to be impersonating each other. WTF????


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 23, 2005)

Maybe we're never supposed to know... oooooooh.....


----------



## silentNate (May 23, 2005)

Allan said:
			
		

> I've just checked IMDB and Natalie Portman's character is definately named Padme Amidala. I've just watched Ep 1 again on TV and there's a scene where they've arrived on Coruscant and little Anakin is walking behind Queen Amidala and yet Padme is there too and smiles at him as they walk along.
> 
> Then there are two scenes where Padme/Amidala are revealed to be impersonating each other. WTF????


 The credits are a such as a way of not spoiling the plot for someone checking credits before seeing movie


----------



## Allan (May 23, 2005)

From http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/amidala/

"Perhaps most important in Amidala's entourage were her five handmaidens. Saché, Yané, Rabé, Sabé and Eirtaé not only helped the Queen with her intricate gowns, hairstyles and make-up, but they were also trained in self-defense. When in danger, Queen Amidala disguised herself as one of her handmaidens, and adopted her less formal name of Padmé. When disguised as Padmé, Sabé assumed the role of Queen in her place. "

So there you have it.

And Sabe was played by Keira Knighley.


----------



## Crispy (May 23, 2005)

RenegadeDog said:
			
		

> (watched phantom menace this evening, a film I reckon could be good if you were a very skilled editor and cut roughly one third of it out)



Google ye the 'Phantom Edit'


----------



## bouncer_the_dog (May 23, 2005)

Loki said:
			
		

> Oh dear, it's all getting nit-pickity now!
> 
> Another inconsistency: In Star Wars IV Obi Wan Kenobi says, "Kenobi.. now that 's a name I have heard since before you were born". Incorrect. Also, Kenobi hands young Luke a light sabre, allegedly a present from his father, which couldn't have happened seeing as they parted on the worst of terms.



Obi-Wan pointedly picks up darths saber as he walks off leaving him burning.

I rekon that they started constructing a second deathstar before the first was finished...


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 23, 2005)

Allan said:
			
		

> From http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/amidala/
> 
> "Perhaps most important in Amidala's entourage were her five handmaidens. Saché, Yané, Rabé, Sabé and Eirtaé not only helped the Queen with her intricate gowns, hairstyles and make-up, but they were also trained in self-defense. When in danger, Queen Amidala disguised herself as one of her handmaidens, and adopted her less formal name of Padmé. When disguised as Padmé, Sabé assumed the role of Queen in her place. "


Fuck off!! Well they managed to make that a whole heap of obvious didn't they! What swung it for me was that Amidala was seen at the senate with the memorable line about applause (which I now can't remember  )






			
				Allan said:
			
		

> And Sabe was played by Keira Knighley.


 Apparently, when in make up, even their own mothers couldn't tell them apart or who was who


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 23, 2005)

bouncer_the_dog said:
			
		

> I rekon that they started constructing a second deathstar before the first was finished...


 A distinct possibility, but it is a rather 'trying to find some way of it working' reason, like a lot of stuff concerning the prequel trilogy.

We shouldn't have to do this, Lucas shouldn't have allowed such massive plot holes and anomolies, _especially_ with such popular films with such a massive (and obssessive ) fan base.


----------



## DarthSydodyas (May 23, 2005)

silentNate said:
			
		

> Wrong- it was practically job done after he killed all the Tuskans. Anakin starts showing a lot less thought or remorse to what he has done throughout AotC and RotS...
> I've stated my problems with the Jedi visiting Tatooine and not freeing the slaves previously, and being removed from ones mother whilst she remains a slave is always going to force you to question the Jedi's morals


  But the Jedi Order existed to serve and protect the Republic, which seems to translate into _serve and protect the Senate_.

To go around and take these kinds of actions would require explicit Senate approval or authorisation from the Jedi Order.  Otherwise, the Jedi put themselves at risk, politically, or otherwise.

This, I guess, is why Qui-Gon warned Obi-Wan that they could not use their abilities to fight the war for the Naboo people.  Escorting the queen was their objective, as assigned by the Jedi Order (and no doubt universally supported throughout the senate).


----------



## bouncer_the_dog (May 23, 2005)

> King of Swamp Castle: When I first came here, this was all swamp. Everyone said I was daft to build a castle on a swamp, but I built in all the same, just to show them. It sank into the swamp. So I built a second one. That sank into the swamp. So I built a third. That burned down, fell over, then sank into the swamp. But the fourth one stayed up. And that's what you're going to get, Lad, the strongest castle in all of England.



Maybe the Emperor and Darth applied the king of swamp castle approach. The Deathstar in 'A new hope' isn't necessarily the one at the end of Sith. There could be loads that ... er.. burned down, fell over and sank into the swamp... er...


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 23, 2005)

Fair point.

"Nah mate, plumbing's well fucked, gonna have to totally gut her. No use squeezin' yer hand at me, I ain't the one who got inbred clones to configure one of the most complex drainage systems this side of Dagobah."


----------



## silentNate (May 23, 2005)

DarthSydodyas said:
			
		

> But the Jedi Order existed to serve and protect the Republic, which seems to translate into _serve and protect the Senate_.
> 
> To go around and take these kinds of actions would require explicit Senate approval or authorisation from the Jedi Order.  Otherwise, the Jedi put themselves at risk, politically, or otherwise.
> 
> This, I guess, is why Qui-Gon warned Obi-Wan that they could not use their abilities to fight the war for the Naboo people.  Escorting the queen was their objective, as assigned by the Jedi Order (and no doubt universally supported throughout the senate).


 For evil to triumph all that is necessary is that good people do nothing.


----------



## DarthSydodyas (May 23, 2005)

silentNate said:
			
		

> For evil to triumph all that is necessary is that good people do nothing.


  Blame the politicians.  The Jedi weren't gods.  They were merely superhuman, but human (like) nonetheless.


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 23, 2005)

Just thinking about this whole 'Anakin restored balance to the force by killing the Emperor' business - surely he's the reason the balance of the force got so majorly fucked up in the first place?? If he hadn't met the Emperor it's likely that the Jedi would have been able to stop Palpatine before he got too powerful and the galaxy wouldn't have had to put up with three decades or so of the Empire...

Just a thought.


----------



## silentNate (May 23, 2005)

DarthSydodyas said:
			
		

> Blame the politicians.  The Jedi weren't gods.  They were merely superhuman, but human (like) nonetheless.


 The Jedi council allowed Palpatine to dissolve the senate, they should take some responsibility for their actions 

By the way are you aware of the far right calling for a boycott of the RotS due to its supposed political allegory (can't put up a link as FAQ bans linking to right-wing fuckwits)


----------



## DarthSydodyas (May 23, 2005)

Lord Camomile said:
			
		

> Just thinking about this whole 'Anakin restored balance to the force by killing the Emperor' business - surely he's the reason the balance of the force got so majorly fucked up in the first place?? If he hadn't met the Emperor it's likely that the Jedi would have been able to stop Palpatine before he got too powerful and the galaxy wouldn't have had to put up with three decades or so of the Empire...
> 
> Just a thought.



Without Anakin, Palpatine would not have had his Empire.  

Why?

'Cos the Jedi would have forced Palpatine out of office, and got another leader elected.

This would mean Palpatine's plan would have failed and he would be forced to reveal himself.  Doing this would have meant imminent failiure as he would either *lose* the battle against the Jedi or would have to *explain* how the hell he could defeat a Jedi Master or 3.  

With Anakin by his side, Palpatine had a way of telling the Senate of his *narrow* escape from death, and justify keeping Anakin from the fate of the remaining Jedi.

As far as Anakin goes, he had to make his own choices, even though the end-game was going to be the same.  Even Anakin (as Vader) could not avoid his destiny, which was to fulfil the prophecy, but nowhere was it stated how this was going to be achieved, or exactly what cost it would be at.


----------



## DarthSydodyas (May 23, 2005)

silentNate said:
			
		

> The Jedi council allowed Palpatine to dissolve the senate, they should take some responsibility for their actions


  It is amazing what people can do because of fear.




			
				silentNate said:
			
		

> By the way are you aware of the far right calling for a boycott of the RotS due to its supposed political allegory (can't put up a link as FAQ bans linking to right-wing fuckwits)


  Yep.   LucasFilm folks have already dismissed it as saying the film is not politically-biased and purely entertainment.  I think it's more like _the truth hurts_.


----------



## jrj2020 (May 23, 2005)

Allan said:
			
		

> Something I can't quite work out: Are Padme and Queen Amidala the same person?


 Yes they are! In the first film she was pretending to be the queens lookylike maid but she was really the queen. Now she is senator amidala...


----------



## Loki (May 23, 2005)

Well those right-wing fuckwits _really_ had an effect on Sith's box office takings...


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 24, 2005)

DarthSydodyas said:
			
		

> Without Anakin, Palpatine would not have had his Empire.


 Exactly! What I'm saying is Anakin/Vader wouldn't have had to restore balance to the force in RotJ if he had never met Palpatine. If the Jedis had just left Anakin on Tatooine, the force would not have become unbalanced.

In other words, isn't Anakin both the solution to but also the _cause of_ the unbalance?


----------



## Red Faction (May 24, 2005)

still cant get over what passes as bringing balance to the force
vader 1) makes the dark side MUCH more pwerful
then in return of the jedi he destroys the dark side altogether
thats not balance
that doesnt even vaguely resemble anything like 'balance'
balance would be
'we split the universe in half- you get theh left side, i take the right side'


----------



## Stigmata (May 24, 2005)

It's funny that when Han Solo expresses his cynicism with regards to the Force and the Jedi in 4-6 Chewbacca doesn't correct him, based on his own experiences with Yoda.

Anakin's problem was that he always needed someone to tell him what to do, and the only person to realise this and take full advantage was Palpatine.


----------



## fubert (May 24, 2005)

Stigmata said:
			
		

> Anakin's problem was that he always needed someone to tell him what to do, and the only person to realise this and take full advantage was Palpatine.



ah. not only that but he's afraid of things all the time. being without his mum and her dying, padme dying. that's where he starts down the spiral to the dark side.

remember.. fear = anger = hate = suffering.. 

luke on the other hand can't be turned because he's not afraid of vader or the emperor. "you have controlled your fear" as vader says to him in v. in vi the emperor knows he's unafraid, so he focuses on the anger bit, to wind him up. it's when luke gets really angry he's vulnerable, because it was only when he was angry he had the strength to give his dad a kicking. "your anger has made you powerful"

vader is totally loyal to the emperor basicly cause he's afraid of him.


----------



## fubert (May 24, 2005)

DarthSydodyas said:
			
		

> Without Anakin, Palpatine would not have had his Empire.
> 
> Why?



you can say that but palpatine was controlling both sides, the systems leaving the republic and the republic itself...


----------



## DarthSydodyas (May 24, 2005)

Lord Camomile said:
			
		

> In other words, isn't Anakin both the solution to but also the _cause of_ the unbalance?


  No, his choice to go to the dark side was just that - free will.  Ultimately, his purpose was going to be met, it just took him slightly longer to get there.


----------



## DarthSydodyas (May 24, 2005)

fubert said:
			
		

> you can say that but palpatine was controlling both sides, the systems leaving the republic and the republic itself...


  But without Anakin, there is no way Palpatine would have survived the Jedi Order nor justified his *Order 66* with the Senate.

The Seperatists were a means to an end which justified both the Clones and the War with the Senate.


----------



## fubert (May 24, 2005)

DarthSydodyas said:
			
		

> But without Anakin, there is no way Palpatine would have survived the Jedi Order nor justified his *Order 66* with the Senate.
> 
> The Seperatists were a means to an end which justified both the Clones and the War with the Senate.



but i think the seperatists would have built the death star sooner and just started blowing up planets forcing the republic to surrender.


----------



## DarthSydodyas (May 24, 2005)

iirc, they were involved in the construction of the DS.   Something George said on the commentary track for AoTC's, concerning the Kamino's.


----------



## fubert (May 24, 2005)

DarthSydodyas said:
			
		

> iirc, they were involved in the construction of the DS.   Something George said on the commentary track for AoTC's, concerning the Kamino's.



well, that and the bit where you see one of them going "get the plans for the ultimate weapon". 

it didn't matter which side won, palpatine would have assumed control. sooner or later something would have come up which would have called for the elmination of the jedi.


----------



## DarthSydodyas (May 24, 2005)

fubert said:
			
		

> but i think the seperatists would have built the death star sooner and just started blowing up planets forcing the republic to surrender.


  This would have upset Sidious's plan, as he needed the thousands of star systems to be inline with his plan for the transition to an Empire.  Without this, the chance of an all out rebellion was high...


----------



## fubert (May 24, 2005)

DarthSydodyas said:
			
		

> This would have upset Sidious's plan, as he needed the thousands of star systems to be inline with his plan for the transition to an Empire.  Without this, the chance of an all out rebellion was high...



the empire isn't officially formed until iv though, when palpatine disolves the senate. at that time the say they'll use the death star to get the seperatist systems to toe the line.

it didn't matter, just as long as he had control..


----------



## Kid_Eternity (May 24, 2005)

Bob_the_lost said:
			
		

> Best bit was the "You were supposed to be the chosen one" part, Ewan did himself pround with that. I too would have liked a bit more gradual attrition of skywalker, but it'd have required a different tone to the entire movie, could have been done though.
> 
> I didn't like the fighter bit at the beggining, it just seemed like a waste of time for the most part, as well as a nice bit of CGI, it would have made more sense for them to be using Tie fighters, or at least be escorted by them etc.
> 
> ...


 Indeed, that was the only bit that felt quite real, actual emotion etc. I didn't think much of the opening space battle either becuase Lucas chose to show it in the narrowest possible terms. Instead of showing the sheer epic scale of it and then dovetailing into following the two fighters (Anakin and Obi ) he showed a brief few shots of the entire battle and then we got 15 minutes of this boring two fighter follow cam...with that tedius crap with that missile that dumps tons of little bots onto their ship. It just seemed pointless when they had the most spectacular fight going on in the background...

You know, it really really wouldn't surprise me if Lucas decided to remake the original three but then it would surprise even less if Lucas announced he was going to do three more after Jedi...


----------



## upsidedownwalrus (May 24, 2005)

If any of them need remaking its the first 2.  Especially Phantom Menace.  Get rid of Jar jar.  Make the gungans into something more like this:







Which start out sinister but do end up fighting alongside the Naboo against the trade federation.  After all, the Ewoks might have been cheesy, but they did start out kind of agressive towards the goodies.  In fact it was only because C3PO threatened to use his godlike powers that they didn't eat them.  Way darker than the Gungans when you think about it.  Lose the tacky 'real world' accents that the various aliens have.  Get a british kid to play anakin.  British kids are generally far less cheesy.

A young Christian Bale, for instance, would have made an amazing Anakin.  Just watch him in Empire of the Sun and you'll see what I mean.  Obviously its too late for that.

Get David Fincher or christopher Nolan to do the first.  Get Ridley Scott to do the second...

I really wish Lucas hadn't insisted on an entire trilogy, it was admirably ambitious in some ways (when you consider he hadn't directed a film since ANH when he started on Episode I) but ultimately a failure.  Although I suppose its still an interesting failure, and I'd still rather watch Phantom Menace or AOTC than a lot of the generic action films that come out.  There was plenty of great visual aspects, like the Queens Palace on Naboo, which were quite beautiful.  he should have got some other directors to direct one and two, knowing that three was 'his' film, and concentrated on the effects and production.

IMO.

Anyway I'm about to watch Episode III so will get back with my final thoughts in a few hours!


----------



## akirajoel (May 24, 2005)

I have an episode III question...

Before it came out i heard a few people talk about how there was going to be a major relevation on the scale of "I am your father" that was going to change the way everyone saw Star Wars...

Did i miss it???

What was it???


----------



## DarthSydodyas (May 24, 2005)

There was a [cut] scene that explained how Anakin's mother had group sex with the Jedi Council, hence his real father was there somewhere (or the midichlorians messed about with the genetics).


----------



## akirajoel (May 24, 2005)

yoda?



(but seriously - that wasnt it was it?)


----------



## fubert (May 24, 2005)

akirajoel said:
			
		

> yoda?



mmm.... dirty girl are you... loving it you are... judge me by my size do you ?


----------



## hektik (May 24, 2005)

Lord Camomile said:
			
		

> Exactly! What I'm saying is Anakin/Vader wouldn't have had to restore balance to the force in RotJ if he had never met Palpatine. If the Jedis had just left Anakin on Tatooine, the force would not have become unbalanced.
> 
> In other words, isn't Anakin both the solution to but also the _cause of_ the unbalance?



i always thought that the reason anakin was found and turned to the dark side etc was that the jedi had becmoe too numerous and powerful, had a big jedi council etc, and were basically running things - this caused the force to get out of whack, because no amount of sith could reduce the amount of control they had over the galaxy.

therefore you get a super sith (vader) who pretty much rips out everything and eventually gets the force back to a neutral ph balance at the end of episode 6, where there is only luke, who is probably not that strong compared to whats gone before, and possibly leia.

the force doesn't like either side becoming too powerful, so counteracts itself. if one side becomes really powerful, then when the bust comes for that side, it goes all the way over to the other side before returning to neutral.


or something.


----------



## silentNate (May 24, 2005)

Palpetine is the super-Sith, not Vader... Palpetine also ruled the senate and so therefore had control over the Jedi council hektic


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 24, 2005)

hektik said:
			
		

> i always thought that the reason anakin was found and turned to the dark side etc was that the jedi had becmoe too numerous and powerful, had a big jedi council etc, and were basically running things - this caused the force to get out of whack, because no amount of sith could reduce the amount of control they had over the galaxy.
> 
> therefore you get a super sith (vader) who pretty much rips out everything and eventually gets the force back to a neutral ph balance at the end of episode 6, where there is only luke, who is probably not that strong compared to whats gone before, and possibly leia.
> 
> the force doesn't like either side becoming too powerful, so counteracts itself. if one side becomes really powerful, then when the bust comes for that side, it goes all the way over to the other side before returning to neutral.


 Ah, so the Jedi are actually arrogantly mistaken in thinking that bringing 'balance to the force' would mean the total elimination of the Sith? That would make sense. Doesn't Yoda even say something about dark and light needing each other in order to exist, or is that another film  

I think it is important to realise that whilst everyone thinks the Jedi always know the best way and are always right this perhaps could not be the case....


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 24, 2005)

Leave the light sabres to the Jedis


----------



## fubert (May 24, 2005)

hektik said:
			
		

> therefore you get a super sith (vader) who pretty much rips out everything and eventually gets the force back to a neutral ph balance at the end of episode 6, where there is only luke, who is probably not that strong compared to whats gone before, and possibly leia.



luke's a stronger jedi than his father. he defeated vader with far less training. but that was when he lost it (see my post earlier)

and the jedi don't really seek personal power via the force. when they're running with it they just let it happen, i think.


----------



## DarthSydodyas (May 24, 2005)

Lord Camomile said:
			
		

> Ah, so the Jedi are actually arrogantly mistaken in thinking that bringing 'balance to the force' would mean the total elimination of the Sith? That would make sense. Doesn't Yoda even say something about dark and light needing each other in order to exist, or is that another film


   The balance of the force could only be achieved by removing that one thing that was eroding it: the dark side.   The Sith were causing this shift in the balance, thus restoring the balance would mean eliminating the Sith.

The Sith were an oppressive reigeme, so I can't imagine Yoda suggesting the two orders co-existing.  Perhaps more to do with the dark side always tempting a Jedi, being aware of it, understanding how to avoid it, and all that.  It is not something they can literally rid the galaxy of no more than any of us could eradicate evil from the world.


----------



## Stigmata (May 24, 2005)

fubert said:
			
		

> luke's a stronger jedi than his father. he defeated vader with far less training. but that was when he lost it (see my post earlier)
> 
> and the jedi don't really seek personal power via the force. when they're running with it they just let it happen, i think.



Did Vader let him win? I always had the suspicion that Vader had a deathwish and that he WANTED Luke to finish him off.


----------



## silentNate (May 24, 2005)

Stigmata said:
			
		

> Did Vader let him win? I always had the suspicion that Vader had a deathwish and that he WANTED Luke to finish him off.


 I also thought this- there was that small part of Vader/Anakin that turned good


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 24, 2005)

DarthSydodyas said:
			
		

> The balance of the force could only be achieved by removing that one thing that was eroding it: the dark side.   The Sith were causing this shift in the balance, thus restoring the balance would mean eliminating the Sith.


 Well then if Anakin had stayed on Tatooine the dark side would not have become as powerful and the force would not have become unbalalnced. What I can't understand is, how was the balance supposedly unbalanced in such a way that required Anakin to come on the scene?




			
				DarthSydodyas said:
			
		

> The Sith were an oppressive reigeme, so I can't imagine Yoda suggesting the two orders co-existing.  Perhaps more to do with the dark side always tempting a Jedi, being aware of it, understanding how to avoid it, and all that.


I did think it didn't quite sound right, which is why I thought I might have confused it with another film, it's a rather common theme.




			
				DarthSydodyas said:
			
		

> It is not something they can literally rid the galaxy of no more than any of us could eradicate evil from the world.


 Speak for yourself, "eradicate evil" is number three on my 'to do' list


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 24, 2005)

Stigmata said:
			
		

> Did Vader let him win? I always had the suspicion that Vader had a deathwish and that he WANTED Luke to finish him off.


 Oh yeah, definitely got that feeling, or at least that it was a possibility, even before the prequel trilogy.


----------



## Stigmata (May 24, 2005)

silentNate said:
			
		

> I also thought this- there was that small part of Vader/Anakin that turned good



Not good necessarily, just tired and guilty after all he'd done. I don't think he'd ever intended to walk away from that last fight. Palpatine probably didn't know, but even if he did he wouldn't have cared because Vader was too old and it was time to recruit a younger apprentice, just like he did in EpIII


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 24, 2005)

Yeah, Luke was clearly intended to take Vader's place as Palpatine's apprentice. If Vader _had_ defeated Luke... well, it's an interesting one...


----------



## akirajoel (May 24, 2005)

Lord Camomile said:
			
		

> Leave the light sabres to the Jedis



D'oh!


----------



## Stigmata (May 24, 2005)

Did anyone shed a manly (or effeminate) tear during the film? I didn't, but I came close during the 'Order 66' montage and the final scene on Tatooine.


----------



## DarthSydodyas (May 24, 2005)

Lord Camomile said:
			
		

> Well then if Anakin had stayed on Tatooine the dark side would not have become as powerful and the force would not have become unbalalnced. What I can't understand is, how was the balance supposedly unbalanced in such a way that required Anakin to come on the scene?


 No, the balance had already started to shift, because of Darth Sidious.

The threat of the Dark Side could not be addressed because it came from within the very heart of the Republic.  Given the proxmity of the Jedi, they were never going to be able to realise this until it was too late.  Therefore, the Force chose someone on the outside, someone who was not going to fall into the Republic net and dissapear into the Jedi Order, and make this individual powerful enough (i.e. the most powerful of all) so that he could deal with the Sith.

Unfortunately, that individual succumbed to his basic human faults and chose a false path.


----------



## DarthSydodyas (May 24, 2005)

Lord Camomile said:
			
		

> Yeah, Luke was clearly intended to take Vader's place as Palpatine's apprentice. If Vader _had_ defeated Luke... well, it's an interesting one...


  Palpatine did to Vader and Luke what he did with Dooku and Anakin.  The young would replace the old.


----------



## DarthSydodyas (May 24, 2005)

Stigmata said:
			
		

> Did anyone shed a manly (or effeminate) tear during the film? I didn't, but I came close during the 'Order 66' montage and the final scene on Tatooine.


  Probably the final Duel scene where Obi-Wan chops off Anakin's legs and Anakin ends up burning near the Lava.  The flames were a nice metaphor for Vaders anger.  Also, it was chilling the way he was silent.


----------



## fubert (May 24, 2005)

Stigmata said:
			
		

> Did Vader let him win? I always had the suspicion that Vader had a deathwish and that he WANTED Luke to finish him off.



i don't think so at least. vader basicly hammers luke until luke loses the rag. vader just obeys the emperor. vader is controlled and powered by fear, luke gets more powerful when he's angry and the whole fear thing doesn't work on him. s'why luke can't be turned.

possibly the emperor foresaw luke defeating vader, but in rotj the emperor has a harder time sensing luke and all that bollocks ; unless luke is giving off dark side vibes of course.

basicly i think the emperor probably just wanted one of them dead as together they posed a threat to him.


----------



## DarthSydodyas (May 24, 2005)

Emperor probably thought he was a chip-off the old block, unable to control his anger and feelings, much like his father.  Palpatine forgot there was Padme's blood running through Luke's veins also.


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 24, 2005)

Stigmata said:
			
		

> Did anyone shed a manly (or effeminate) tear during the film? I didn't, but I came close during the 'Order 66' montage and the final scene on Tatooine.


 No tears, but did think the 'Order 66' sequence and Obi-Wan's final speech to Anakin were actually quite moving.

Did anyone else think the 'Order 66' moment was heavily reminiscent of the scene in Godfather Part II where Michael has all those other people (heads of the other families?) killed whilst his son is baptised (my Godfather knowledge is shameful so I may have got bits of that wrong)?


----------



## fubert (May 24, 2005)

DarthSydodyas said:
			
		

> Emperor probably thought he was a chip-off the old block, unable to control his anger and feelings, much like his father.  Palpatine forgot there was Padme's blood running through Luke's veins also.



emperor palaptine in attempted "win-win" situation shocker. but luke yeah, he is pretty uncontrolable when he gets angry anyway. 

man i spend too much time thinking about this. i wonder if all this was intentional from lucas ?

don't forget vader tried to get luke to join him. i've never been quite sure if that was serious though.


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 24, 2005)

fubert said:
			
		

> i wonder if all this was intentional from lucas ?


 I doubt it. I think in a lot of areas he's just banked on people like us filling in the blanks to try to get it to make sense.


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (May 24, 2005)

Ok, I saw it.

I'm still not certain how I feel about the movie as a whole.  I was a bit distracted by the amount of stuff going on in the background.  In most city scenes there was something more compelling to be watching in the background than there was in the foreground.  

The love scenes were allful--per usual.  

The best part was Palpatine making his speech about why the dark side was the better choice.  It was the most compelling part of the film.  He made a good case--a much better case, in fact, than Yoda's lame advice to Anakin about Padme.  It was accurate advice, just not particular useful.  The contrast between those two conversations makes it clear why he choose the dark side.

The political undertones were interesting.  They copped out in the line about "If you're not with me.... you're my enemy."  They should have just made it explicit.  It was have gotten though the thick skull of the literalist, neo-cons much more efficiently.


----------



## DarthSydodyas (May 24, 2005)

fubert said:
			
		

> emperor palaptine in attempted "win-win" situation shocker. but luke yeah, he is pretty uncontrolable when he gets angry anyway.
> 
> man i spend too much time thinking about this. i wonder if all this was intentional from lucas ?
> 
> don't forget vader tried to get luke to join him. i've never been quite sure if that was serious though.


 Yes, a reoccuring theme and the way of the Sith.  Even Dooku was after an apprentice, to overthrow Palpatine/Sidious and assume control of the Sith Order (all 2 members of it).  What got interesting, in Episode 3, was when Anakin asked Padme to join him in order to assume control of the galaxy, overthrowing Sidious.  It would have ruined the Sith Order (ironically).


----------



## upsidedownwalrus (May 24, 2005)

I've just watched it and all I can say is: WOW!!!!

That was damned awesome.  Easily as good as the original trilogy.  And in many ways it makes the first two in the NT seem a bit better than I first thought.

And some of the most genuinely powerful moments in ANY of the Star Wars films.  Order 66 being one, the 'You were the chosen one' line.  Damn, loads of it.  Even Luke and Leia being delivered to their adopted parents at the end, the general sense of destiny.  And what you realise watching this is that all through the 3 films an amazingly subtle political subtext has been developing, which is actually more complex than anything in the original trilogy.  The slow transition from peaceful republic to oppressive empire, not because of invasion from without but from within.

I'm going to watch the DVD again tomorrow...


----------



## upsidedownwalrus (May 24, 2005)

In fact I'd go so far as to say it was better than Star Wars and Return of the Jedi, and as good as Empire Strikes Back.


----------



## Jenerys (May 24, 2005)

RenegadeDog said:
			
		

> In fact I'd go so far as to say it was better than Star Wars and Return of the Jedi, and as good as Empire Strikes Back.


  

I'm off to see it tonight

[puts expectations safely back in box]
[travels to galaxy far far away]


----------



## fen_boy (May 24, 2005)

Yuwipi Woman said:
			
		

> Ok, I saw it.
> 
> I'm still not certain how I feel about the movie as a whole.  I was a bit distracted by the amount of stuff going on in the background.  In most city scenes there was something more compelling to be watching in the background than there was in the foreground.
> 
> ...




Just seen it too and the above pretty much sums up what I thought about it and saved me having to write anything  I thought it was pretty good - nothing amazing, but it does set the scene really well for the films that follow.


----------



## Sub_bass (May 26, 2005)

*Well worth it!*

Just come back from seeing the new film. By far the best one of the new trilogy!

 

_sub_


----------



## Iam (May 26, 2005)

Saw it this afternoon. Enjoyed it. Very well done, beyond the usual poor dialogue.

I'll probably have more to say when I've seen it _again_...


----------



## Nine Bob Note (May 27, 2005)

Okies, I saw the film lastnite, have read the entire thread and shall sum up my opinions on a number of matters...

*The Death Star*
Not just the Death Star, the advancement of the entire imperial machine moved far too quickly, prolly just for consistency with IV. We know the Kaminoans have been cloning an army for the past twenty years (very trusting of them, they must have good corporate lawyers) but where did all the Republican ships and weapons come from? The Star Destoyers, certainly, although appearing to be much smaller than their IV..VI counterparts could not have been thrown together in such a limited time. Also, at the end, who exactly was GM Tarkin? Where did he, and his presumably formidable political/military experience come from? Why did the Emperor place him above Vader in the hierachy? (Vader was clearly subordinate to him in IV)

*The Droids*
R2 is a bitch. If someone asked him, later, why he never bothered to mention what he knew about Anakin, 3PO, Kenobi etc he'd prolly reply "You didn't ask, did you?"

*Mace versus Palpatine*
Mace had the old man, no question. In II, Anakin mentioned Yoda being the greatest with a light sabre, but I would prefer to think of Mace (who appears in I and II to be the leader of the Jedi council) as being the most (physically) powerful.

*Amidala/Padme*
I think you've worked this one out amongst yourselves, but for the record I believe that much of "Amidala" in I (possibly all of the scenes, bar the initial,and final ones on Naboo) with all the posh frocks and Christmas cracker earrings was indeed her decoy, even in scenes where she was acting as queen, in the senate etc. She was prolly just well versed. I didn't like the scenes with her in III. I know she was pregnant, but to leave her in that flat, in a lacy frock, feeling lonely, when she'd spent the previous two films running around with a laser, seemed very wrong. I almost cried when she died, and at her funeral, as I did like the character, and at the same time realised that her death was ending the early trilogy, and the role of Naboo, the seperatists etc in the grand scheme of things.

*General Grievous*
I haven't seen Clone Wars, so I don't know much about him but he did seem kind of pointless (and he backfooted the Viceroy, who's a real dude) It has been suggested on here that he was formed from Darth Maul's remains, and this is certainly a theory that has some support across the net, and would explain a few things, like, why a robot would be so loyal to the emperor? Why he would need human organs? It doesn't, however, explain his absence in II. I never saw Darth Maul clutching twenty Benson's, either 

*Anakins prompt turn to the dark side*
As has already been said, the process began when he killed the Tuskens, back in II. After that incident he was all "Oh no, what have I done?" whereas after he'd lobbed off Sauraman's head it was more "Eeek, prolly shouldn't have done that. Don't tell me supervisor, I'll get the sack"

*Anakin's nakedness*
Very impressive. I'm glad I had my coat in my lap, in the cinema  I like the long hair too.

*The Wookies*
No, they didn't play a key role, but I don't think they were mean't too. They just needed a planet full of aliens to have a scrap on, and they knew that bringing back Chewbacca et all would keep fans happy.

*Baby Luke*
Exactly why did the wise old Kenobi reckon Vader wouldn't go looking for his missing son at his brother's place? Mind, saying that, he never once looked him up, until, that is, he decided to have him and Berou BBQed.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (May 27, 2005)

Something that doesn’t seem to get commented on much is the music in Sith. I love the intro music, with that slow pounding tribal drum and then the remix end of Empire tune, excellent stuff!


----------



## Kid_Eternity (May 27, 2005)

> Also, at the end, who exactly was GM Tarkin? Where did he, and his presumably formidable political/military experience come from? Why did the Emperor place him above Vader in the hierachy? (Vader was clearly subordinate to him in IV)



Didn't they show him with Vader and the Emperor looking at the Deathstar at the end (he goes out of shot pretty quickly to be fair)? I don't think Vader was "Vader was clearly subordinate to him in IV" though. It seemed more like let the human types run the show and have Vader turn up to keep things on track when needed to me...


----------



## Nine Bob Note (May 27, 2005)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> Didn't they show him with Vader and the Emperor looking at the Deathstar at the end (he goes out of shot pretty quickly to be fair)?



That's what I mean. The empire has only been formed for a few days/months, is relying on Jango clones and yet they have someone else to lead the 'nazis'


----------



## jæd (May 27, 2005)

Nine Bob Note said:
			
		

> Also, at the end, who exactly was GM Tarkin? Where did he, and his presumably formidable political/military experience come from? Why did the Emperor place him above Vader in the hierachy? (Vader was clearly subordinate to him in IV)



He's supposed to be in the background in the end when they look at the Death Star Prototype. Darth Vader was only a kindergaten-Sith then. Tarkin is more experienced than him. He's also probably more a people-person. 




			
				Nine Bob Note said:
			
		

> *The Droids*
> R2 is a bitch. If someone asked him, later, why he never bothered to mention what he knew about Anakin, 3PO, Kenobi etc he'd prolly reply "You didn't ask, did you?"



Not sure if its in the movie but in "Empire Strikes Back" at the end R2 points out that (a) the hyperdrive was disabled and (b) he can fix it. Which he does. All the way through 4, 5, & 6 R2 kicks ass.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (May 27, 2005)

Nine Bob Note said:
			
		

> That's what I mean. The empire has only been formed for a few days/months, is relying on Jango clones and yet they have someone else to lead the 'nazis'


 Hmmm not sure then but I do know that you don't get a very good idea of timelines at some points during ep 2 and 3 so its hard to understand how certain things came about...


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 27, 2005)

Nine Bob Note said:
			
		

> *Baby Luke*
> Exactly why did the wise old Kenobi reckon Vader wouldn't go looking for his missing son at his brother's place?


 I thought that was pretty shoddy too; surely take him somewhere Anakin's never been??

Maybe they were thinking it was so obvious that Vader wouldn't even bother looking: "Oh, they wouldn't hide him _there_"  Or perhaps Anakin just really hated his brother _that much_ that he couldn't bring himself to pay a visit, even if his own son was there...


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 27, 2005)

Shit, just thought: at some point doesn't C3PO relay something that R2-D2 says somewhat cryptcially, like "what do mean 'what's s/he doing here'?". I know that's pathetically vague, I just swear I remember there being a bit of mystery as to what/who R2 is talking about that is possibly explained by the prequel trilogy.

Fuck's sake, I have to watch the bloody OT ASAP.


----------



## Nine Bob Note (May 27, 2005)

Well, it is Friday. I've already dug my DVDs out


----------



## Kid_Eternity (May 27, 2005)

Lord Camomile said:
			
		

> I thought that was pretty shoddy too; surely take him somewhere Anakin's never been??
> 
> Maybe they were thinking it was so obvious that Vader wouldn't even bother looking: "Oh, they wouldn't hide him _there_"  Or perhaps Anakin just really hated his brother _that much_ that he couldn't bring himself to pay a visit, even if his own son was there...


 I don't think it is quite that bad; Anankin/Vader is a person with huge denial, why would he want to return to a world were he spent his entire life a slave and that killed his mother? Wouldn't he just want to never be reminded of all that because then he'd have to deal with all the other things that had made him who he was. Of course the other side of it is that perhaps by the time he became Vader he was so consumed with rage/revenge etc that it didn't matter. And neither of those point even take into account  the fact that he thought Padme had died (and probably the kid, he didn't know it was twins, died with her)!


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (May 27, 2005)

Nine Bob Note said:
			
		

> ... We know the Kaminoans have been cloning an army for the past twenty years (very trusting of them, they must have good corporate lawyers) but where did all the Republican ships and weapons come from? ...



To quote another franchise:

Cordelia: Yes, but you were just evil, souless bloodsucking demons. They're lawyers!

Angel:  You're right, we're amateurs.


----------



## Loki (May 27, 2005)

Lord Camomile said:
			
		

> I thought that was pretty shoddy too; surely take him somewhere Anakin's never been??
> 
> Maybe they were thinking it was so obvious that Vader wouldn't even bother looking: "Oh, they wouldn't hide him _there_"  Or perhaps Anakin just really hated his brother _that much_ that he couldn't bring himself to pay a visit, even if his own son was there...


But Vader only knew that Padme had died, he had no clue that she had borne children. Besides, Kenobi was watching over young Luke and could have easily deflected any inquisitive stormtroopers.


----------



## DarthSydodyas (May 27, 2005)

Loki said:
			
		

> But Vader only knew that Padme had died, he had no clue that she had borne children. Besides, Kenobi was watching over young Luke and could have easily deflected any inquisitive stormtroopers.


  Not only the last place he would look, also a place he would never want to look at.  Bad memories, an' all that.


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## Kid_Eternity (May 28, 2005)

Yep, as my post above said...denial would keep him away (something more powerful than the force it seems...).


----------



## fubert (May 28, 2005)

Lord Camomile said:
			
		

> Shit, just thought: at some point doesn't C3PO relay something that R2-D2 says somewhat cryptcially, like "what do mean 'what's s/he doing here'?".



that would be when r2d2 finds leia in the death star computer in the detention cell. remember they stumbled across the death star when they went to alderaan to find it destroyed. rescuing leia was not in the original plan.

r2 didn't know leia had been captured. she loaded the plans into him and he fucked off in an escape pod.


----------



## fubert (May 28, 2005)

Nine Bob Note said:
			
		

> *Baby Luke*
> Exactly why did the wise old Kenobi reckon Vader wouldn't go looking for his missing son at his brother's place? Mind, saying that, he never once looked him up, until, that is, he decided to have him and Berou BBQed.



anakin skywalker and owen lars are just inlaws. owen's dad is anakins stepdad, cause he married anakins mum.

and seriously, who wants to visit inlaws ?


----------



## Loki (May 28, 2005)

Yuwipi Woman said:
			
		

> The political undertones were interesting.  They copped out in the line about "If you're not with me.... you're my enemy."



Yep, that line stuck out for me too. And as has been said (on this thread?) right-wing morons called for the movie to be boycotted (not very successfully  ) because of the anti-extreme republican overtones.


----------



## Loki (May 28, 2005)

fubert said:
			
		

> anakin skywalker and owen lars are just inlaws. owen's dad is anakins stepdad, cause he married anakins mum.
> 
> and seriously, who wants to visit inlaws ?


Also, Vader didn't know that Padme had given birth, it was only mentioned to him that she had died. Only the Jedis knew about Luke and Leia (sp?)


----------



## Wee Beastie (May 28, 2005)

Don't know if anyones mentioned it but there are no strong female characters in that film. It's almost like its taken the attitude that women aren't worth bothering with.
There weren't enough Wookies for me either.
I thought Darth Vadur's Nooooo, was a bit forced.
I thought Yoda should have bus' up the emperor too. Surely he's the toughest little fella in the universe?
I was quite disappointed overall. Though I did enjoy it.


----------



## Passepartout (May 28, 2005)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/beds/bucks/herts/4575291.stm


----------



## DarthSydodyas (May 28, 2005)

Wee Beastie said:
			
		

> I thought Yoda should have bus' up the emperor too. Surely he's the toughest little fella in the universe?


  Yoda would have won that battle had their confrontation lasted any longer.


----------



## fubert (May 28, 2005)

Passepartout said:
			
		

> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/beds/bucks/herts/4575291.stm



nearly a darwin award. chavsabres.




			
				Wee Beastie said:
			
		

> Don't know if anyones mentioned it but there are no strong female characters in that film. It's almost like its taken the attitude that women aren't worth bothering with.
> There weren't enough Wookies for me either.
> I thought Darth Vadur's Nooooo, was a bit forced.
> I thought Yoda should have bus' up the emperor too. Surely he's the toughest little fella in the universe?
> I was quite disappointed overall. Though I did enjoy it.



i dunno, padme is basicly a strong woman character imo.

we were saying the other night if leia and luke's roles were reversed it would be cool.


----------



## Matt S (May 28, 2005)

Got to admit, I am surprised at the generally quite positive reviews people have given this film. Just come back from the cinema, and I thought it was absolutely laughable. A totally excruciating waste of time. Every time you thought Lucas was about to build up some drama, he ruined it with some utterly ridiculous line or over-the-top effect.

In my book, this was the worst of them all - because this one had *potential*. The first two were always going to be pretty shit, but this one totally failed to live up to what could have been an amazing story. I ended the film wanting to squeeze my own brain out through my eyesocket, I was so disappointed.

"Not if anything to say about it, I have!" (FFS).

Matt

P.S. Padme was a strong female character. In III she is a totally useless waste of space, just reacting to the (risible) Hayden Christiansen.


----------



## Loki (May 28, 2005)

Matt S said:
			
		

> "Not if anything to say about it, I have!" (FFS).
> 
> Matt
> 
> P.S. Padme was a strong female character. In III she is a totally useless waste of space, just reacting to the (risible) Hayden Christiansen.


Well I agree with those bits, at least.


----------



## mentalchik (May 29, 2005)




----------



## Balbi (May 29, 2005)

:d:d:d:d


----------



## Kid_Eternity (May 29, 2005)

Wee Beastie said:
			
		

> Don't know if anyones mentioned it but there are no strong female characters in that film. It's almost like its taken the attitude that women aren't worth bothering with.
> There weren't enough Wookies for me either.
> I thought Darth Vadur's Nooooo, was a bit forced.
> I thought Yoda should have bus' up the emperor too. Surely he's the toughest little fella in the universe?
> I was quite disappointed overall. Though I did enjoy it.


 I know what you mean about the Yoda fight, in some ways I'd prefer it if it was him not Mace Windu that caused Palpatines disfiguration...


----------



## DarthSydodyas (May 29, 2005)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> I know what you mean about the Yoda fight, in some ways I'd prefer it if it was him not Mace Windu that caused Palpatines disfiguration...


  Mace may not have.  The lightening doesnt really touch Palpatine, but also reading up on some of McDiarmids [interesting] interview suggests that the real Palpatine was revealed - his mask torn away and the real Sith presented at that critical moment (something that obviously could not have been undone - hence the justification to the Senate).


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (May 31, 2005)

Matt S said:
			
		

> P.S. Padme was a strong female character. In III she is a totally useless waste of space, just reacting to the (risible) Hayden Christiansen.



Yes, they screwed her character out of the end she deserved.  She wouldn't have gone out like that.  She also wouldn't have sat around the apartment mooning about Anakin.  She would have gone down fighting.


----------



## slaar (May 31, 2005)

Is it just me, or in one of the later films does Luke not ask Leia whether she has memories of their mother, and she says yes, she seemed sad. And yet she dies a couple of minutes after they are born. What is that about then?


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (May 31, 2005)

slaar said:
			
		

> Is it just me, or in one of the later films does Luke not ask Leia whether she has memories of their mother, and she says yes, she seemed sad. And yet she dies a couple of minutes after they are born. What is that about then?



I've wondered about that too.  No doubt, Lucas will go in and re-edit it out and sell us a new "director's cut."


----------



## Nine Bob Note (May 31, 2005)

When he does get round to it, he should stick Amidala in the ghost scene, at the end of ROTJ, too


----------



## lighterthief (May 31, 2005)

Matt S said:
			
		

> Got to admit, I am surprised at the generally quite positive reviews people have given this film. Just come back from the cinema, and I thought it was absolutely laughable. A totally excruciating waste of time. Every time you thought Lucas was about to build up some drama, he ruined it with some utterly ridiculous line or over-the-top effect.
> 
> In my book, this was the worst of them all - because this one had *potential*. The first two were always going to be pretty shit, but this one totally failed to live up to what could have been an amazing story.



Spot on.  What a shame.


----------



## Termite Man (May 31, 2005)

Nine Bob Note said:
			
		

> When he does get round to it, he should stick Amidala in the ghost scene, at the end of ROTJ, too



No he shouldn't because she wasn't a jedi  At the end when Yoda says something about Obi Wans former master having discovered a way to live on after death means that only a jedi who has mastered that aspect of the force would be able to appear in ghost form !

As for the film I did enjoy it although it could have been so much better  and why were the republic figters x-wings instead of tie fighters  I'd have thought the tie fighter design would be used since the look of all the other republic ships is similar to the 4 , 5 and 6 models used by the empire !


----------



## Nine Bob Note (May 31, 2005)

Savage Henry said:
			
		

> No he shouldn't because she wasn't a jedi  At the end when Yoda says something about Obi Wans former master having discovered a way to live on after death means that only a jedi who has mastered that aspect of the force would be able to appear in ghost form !



Aww, but it would be sooooo sweet! 

Besides, it's taken Qui-Gon twenty years to learn how to do it, whereas Obi Wan, Anakin and Yoda can do it as soon as they kick the bucket?


----------



## Termite Man (May 31, 2005)

Nine Bob Note said:
			
		

> Aww, but it would be sooooo sweet!
> 
> Besides, it's taken Qui-Gon twenty years to learn how to do it, whereas Obi Wan, Anakin and Yoda can do it as soon as they kick the bucket?



there is a simple explanation for that ! 

Qui-Gon is shit !


----------



## Nine Bob Note (May 31, 2005)

And another thing! Anakin was a sith lord, not a jedi master. If he can come back, what's stopping Palpatine coming back and causing general meanyness?


----------



## Termite Man (May 31, 2005)

Nine Bob Note said:
			
		

> And another thing! Anakin was a sith lord, not a jedi master. If he can come back, what's stopping Palpatine coming back and causing general meanyness?



I think the whole thing about Anakin was that even though he went to the Dark Side he still saved Luke thus turning back to the light side right at the end , thus completing the prophecy of destroying the sith !


----------



## Termite Man (May 31, 2005)

Nine Bob Note said:
			
		

> And another thing! Anakin was a sith lord, not a jedi master. If he can come back, what's stopping Palpatine coming back and causing general meanyness?



And why is it the Healing power in all the star wars games is a Light Side power yet in episode III they claim it's a power of the Dark Side


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (May 31, 2005)

Savage Henry said:
			
		

> And why is it the Healing power in all the star wars games is a Light Side power yet in episode III they claim it's a power of the Dark Side



Healing is light side.

Ending death/raising people from the dead is dark side.


----------



## Bob_the_lost (May 31, 2005)

Yuwipi Woman said:
			
		

> Healing is light side.
> 
> Ending death/raising people from the dead is dark side.


 Which is why the dark side is far superior, plus red lightsabres look better.


----------



## scumbalina (Jun 1, 2005)

Okay...haven't read this thread so sorry if I'm being repetitve, but I've just watched Episode 3 then 4, and I have an issue that needs answering..

In episode 4, Chewbacca and Obi don't achknowledge each other - wasn't it Chewbacca that Obi hugs and is 'well in with the wookies' with in Ep 3?

Christ on a bike, this may be the most shamefully geeky moment of my life   

I have more of these shameful questions


----------



## silentNate (Jun 1, 2005)

Savage Henry said:
			
		

> No he shouldn't because she wasn't a jedi  At the end when Yoda says something about Obi Wans former master having discovered a way to live on after death means that only a jedi who has mastered that aspect of the force would be able to appear in ghost form !
> 
> As for the film I did enjoy it although it could have been so much better  and why were the republic figters x-wings instead of tie fighters  I'd have thought the tie fighter design would be used since the look of all the other republic ships is similar to the 4 , 5 and 6 models used by the empire !


 Dumbest post _ever_...
If you can't see the difference between the Empire and the Republic perhaps you should make a quick visit to uk p+p


----------



## fubert (Jun 1, 2005)

Yuwipi Woman said:
			
		

> Healing is light side.
> 
> Ending death/raising people from the dead is dark side.



aye. tampering with nature and all that.

"dabbling with forces you cannot comprehend" etc


----------



## fubert (Jun 1, 2005)

slaar said:
			
		

> Is it just me, or in one of the later films does Luke not ask Leia whether she has memories of their mother, and she says yes, she seemed sad. And yet she dies a couple of minutes after they are born. What is that about then?



no she doesn't. not a couple of minutes. "when i was very young" she says. cause leia's always thought bail organa and his mrs were her mum and dad.


----------



## Termite Man (Jun 1, 2005)

silentNate said:
			
		

> Dumbest post _ever_...
> If you can't see the difference between the Empire and the Republic perhaps you should make a quick visit to uk p+p



What you mean the fact that the Rebublic in Episode 3 is pretty much the empire without Palpatine disolving the senate ! I really don't see much difference ! And the Rebublic Star Destroyers are the same design as the Empire Star Destroyers so why are the Fighters not the same design ? Maybe you should stop being so blinded by your misguided opinion of Episode 3 ( best out of the 6 , don't make me laugh  ) and think before you post


----------



## silentNate (Jun 1, 2005)

Savage- does it never occur to you that Lucas deliberately does stuff that can be used as toys/merchandise?


----------



## Termite Man (Jun 1, 2005)

silentNate said:
			
		

> Savage- does it never occur to you that Lucas deliberately does stuff that can be used as toys/merchandise?



Does he ! I'd never of guessed !
He could still have made them use tie fighters instead of X-Wings ( in fact the Jedi ships looked more like Tie Fighters than the Republic soldiers ships do )


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jun 1, 2005)

scumbalina said:
			
		

> Okay...haven't read this thread so sorry if I'm being repetitve, but I've just watched Episode 3 then 4, and I have an issue that needs answering..
> 
> In episode 4, Chewbacca and Obi don't achknowledge each other - wasn't it Chewbacca that Obi hugs and is 'well in with the wookies' with in Ep 3?
> 
> ...



Ask away!


----------



## silentNate (Jun 1, 2005)

Chewbacca might be a common name amongst Wookies, like John for example. After all the Chewbacca in A New Hope might be the Chewbacca in RotS's son after all there are many years inbetween with Luke growing up


----------



## DarthSydodyas (Jun 1, 2005)

scumbalina said:
			
		

> In episode 4, Chewbacca and Obi don't achknowledge each other - wasn't it Chewbacca that Obi hugs and is 'well in with the wookies' with in Ep 3?


  It was Yoda, not Obi-Wan who hugged Chewbacca (and maintained good relations between the Republic and the Wookie planet).


----------



## scumbalina (Jun 1, 2005)

DarthSydodyas said:
			
		

> It was Yoda, not Obi-Wan who hugged Chewbacca (and maintained good relations between the Republic and the Wookie planet).





Oh yeah    Fuckin Jedi's...all look the same to me


----------



## scumbalina (Jun 1, 2005)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> Ask away!


 

 

In Ep 4, Old Ben says he hasn't been known as Obi since before Lukes dad died. But he was still Obi at the end of Ep 3 wasn't he? 

And how does he get Darth's light saber to give Luke in Ep 4?


----------



## scumbalina (Jun 1, 2005)

silentNate said:
			
		

> Chewbacca might be a common name amongst Wookies, like John for example. After all the Chewbacca in A New Hope might be the Chewbacca in RotS's son after all there are many years inbetween with Luke growing up





Nah... they both got the same spiffy belt


----------



## Nine Bob Note (Jun 1, 2005)

scumbalina said:
			
		

> And how does he get Darth's light saber to give Luke in Ep 4?



He robbed it. He sliced his legs off and then he stole his lightsaber. No morals, these Jedi


----------



## DarthSydodyas (Jun 1, 2005)

scumbalina said:
			
		

> In Ep 4, Old Ben says he hasn't been known as Obi since before Lukes dad died. But he was still Obi at the end of Ep 3 wasn't he?


 He probably dropped "Obi-Wan" when he went to Tatooine (and started his isolation and training).


----------



## slaar (Jun 1, 2005)

fubert said:
			
		

> no she doesn't. not a couple of minutes. "when i was very young" she says. cause leia's always thought bail organa and his mrs were her mum and dad.


She did die very soon after childbirth, you see her buried then Leia handed to her foster parents. Leia wasn't possibly old enough to remember, and Luke wasn't talking about Leia's foster mum but their own biological mother.

Or am I missing something?


----------



## scumbalina (Jun 1, 2005)

DarthSydodyas said:
			
		

> He probably dropped "Obi-Wan" when he went to Tatooine (and started his isolation and training).





But that was after Lukes dad 'died'. C'mon....let me have this one....


----------



## scumbalina (Jun 1, 2005)

Nine Bob Note said:
			
		

> He robbed it. He sliced his legs off and then he stole his lightsaber. No morals, these Jedi





Christ, I really didn't pay attention in the cinema the other day


----------



## the B (Jun 1, 2005)

scumbalina said:
			
		

> But that was after Lukes dad 'died'. C'mon....let me have this one....



You can consider the time someone (best mate/"brother") dies and the immediate period as the sort of 'same episode' (oh haha!) in your life.


----------



## DarthSydodyas (Jun 1, 2005)

slaar said:
			
		

> She did die very soon after childbirth, you see her buried then Leia handed to her foster parents. Leia wasn't possibly old enough to remember, and Luke wasn't talking about Leia's foster mum but their own biological mother.
> 
> Or am I missing something?


 Yoda said something about visions covering events yet to come, and those that have passed (about people who have passed, to be more specific).

Leia has the same force potential as Luke, it is possible that Leia gained these memories of her _real_ mother through the force.


----------



## scumbalina (Jun 1, 2005)

the B said:
			
		

> You can consider the time someone (best mate/"brother") dies and the immediate period as the sort of 'same episode' (oh haha!) in your life.




Nope nope nope. I lost the light saber and Chewbacca. I claim victory on this. Even if my boyfriend has just told me that it's the weakest, pettiest plot criticism he's ever heard of.


----------



## Allan (Jun 1, 2005)

scumbalina said:
			
		

> Oh yeah    Fuckin Jedi's...all look the same to me



The plural of Jedi is Jedi.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jun 1, 2005)

Allan said:
			
		

> The plural of Jedi is Jedi.


 And the plural of the Sith is The Sith....


----------



## Lord Camomile (Jun 1, 2005)

And the plural of Jar Jar Binks is Oh Fucking Christ No


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jun 1, 2005)

Lord Camomile said:
			
		

> And the plural of Jar Jar Binks is Oh Fucking Christ No


 Incorrect it is "Kill that cunt"!


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (Jun 1, 2005)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> Incorrect it is "Kill that cunt"!



Perhaps it's "Give Lucas as boot to the head for even considering including such a steppenfetchit character."


----------



## scumbalina (Jun 1, 2005)

Allan said:
			
		

> The plural of Jedi is Jedi.




Christ, and I was worried that _I_ was being geeky


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (Jun 1, 2005)

scumbalina said:
			
		

> Christ, and I was worried that _I_ was being geeky




http://www.brunching.com/geekhierarchy.html


----------



## Nine Bob Note (Jun 1, 2005)

Hey, mesa lika Jar-Jar! 

Watching IV at the weekend, I thought I heard Han mention the Gungans, but he said Gundark


----------



## Allan (Jun 2, 2005)

Lord Camomile said:
			
		

> And the plural of Jar Jar Binks is Oh Fucking Christ No


LOL!


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jun 3, 2005)

Some thoughts upon seeing Episode 3:


Who the fuck are the Sith? If you're a real starwarsophile, you probably know, but I'm talking about the average moviegoer. They don't really explain. I thouhgt they were sort of dark knights, like anti-jedi, but my kid says there are only ever two Sith at a time: a sith master, and an apprentice.

So how was it that the galaxy was ever under sith domination, if there's only two of them? How bumbling are the Jedi: are they like the galactic CIA, with interstellar exploding cigars?

And with all that tapping into the Force, why didn't one of those Jedi in the Jedi Temple ever cotton to the fact that palpatine was the Sith Lord?

And who was his master, this guy who could control life? What happened to him?


Why doesn't anyone come out and say it: Anakin is a fucking fruitcake, raving like a loon, lunatic. He's fucking crazy. He's off his rocker.

Forget about the dark side. Sure, you can understand that losing his mother to a pack of raping, pillaging sand bug-people will throw your stability off kilter. Sure, it will give you intimacy and abandonment issues. Sure, you'll not want a repeat of that, and you'll want to ensure the safety of your wife.

Those kinds of feelings are pretty normal and human; could anyone normal and human go into a room of elementary-school-aged children, and slice them all up with a light saber? All in the name of love?

He was/is fucking crazy.


How did the imperial guard/clone army manage to take basically all of the Jedi by surprise, and off the lot of them?

See above: maybe the Jedi were vastly overrated. Where was the Force when they needed it?


Yeah yeah yeah. Lots is unexplained. Also, IMO, Lucas' vision of a fantasy world is pretty dated nowadays. The crowning moment is putting on Darth's black costume. But it looks so tacky now. And the breathing. It's the future(past). They've got almost instantaneous galactic travel. Why can't they make a respirator that doesn't sound like something out of the rubbish heap in the bilge of Jacques Cousteau's Calypso?

But having said all that, the movie is enjoyable for one major reason: it's the first star wars where the characters stop being mere cartoon creations, and start to become believable human beings (well, at least some of them) that you actually care about.

I'd give it a B-


----------



## silentNate (Jun 3, 2005)

Yuwipi Woman said:
			
		

> http://www.brunching.com/geekhierarchy.html


 Shit that puts me about...


----------



## DarthSydodyas (Jun 3, 2005)

Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> Who the fuck are the Sith? If you're a real starwarsophile, you probably know, but I'm talking about the average moviegoer. They don't really explain. I thouhgt they were sort of dark knights, like anti-jedi, but my kid says there are only ever two Sith at a time: a sith master, and an apprentice.


 You are both right.



			
				Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> So how was it that the galaxy was ever under sith domination, if there's only two of them? How bumbling are the Jedi: are they like the galactic CIA, with interstellar exploding cigars?


 There were more than two, at some point.  However, given their nature of infighting, they virtually destroyed each other and _the rule of two_ was born.  Or something around those lines.



			
				Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> And with all that tapping into the Force, why didn't one of those Jedi in the Jedi Temple ever cotton to the fact that palpatine was the Sith Lord?


  Yoda, in Episode 2 mentioned that it was difficult to see through the Dark Side (even during his meditation, he couldnt make out much of the dark side).  It was literally like a cloth over their eyes.



			
				Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> And who was his master, this guy who could control life? What happened to him?


  Ambigous.  Deliberately.  It's real purpose in this film was to lure in Anakin.  A promise of power.



			
				Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> Why doesn't anyone come out and say it: Anakin is a fucking fruitcake, raving like a loon, lunatic. He's fucking crazy. He's off his rocker.


  Greed, lust and jealousy were some of his weakness.  Fairly common human traits...?



			
				Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> Forget about the dark side. Sure, you can understand that losing his mother to a pack of raping, pillaging sand bug-people will throw your stability off kilter. Sure, it will give you intimacy and abandonment issues. Sure, you'll not want a repeat of that, and you'll want to ensure the safety of your wife.


  It was his lust for power which lead him to his downfall.  Saving his wife was the switch that triggered that motion, but in the end he wanted the power Palpatine promised.  No one would get in his way, not even his wife!



			
				Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> Those kinds of feelings are pretty normal and human; could anyone normal and human go into a room of elementary-school-aged children, and slice them all up with a light saber? All in the name of love?
> He was/is fucking crazy.


  I dunno.  Man seems to have done some fairly wicked stuff during war times.



			
				Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> How did the imperial guard/clone army manage to take basically all of the Jedi by surprise, and off the lot of them?
> See above: maybe the Jedi were vastly overrated. Where was the Force when they needed it?


  No, the Jedi aren't gods.  Superhuman, way above normal, but vulnerable nonetheless.  The Clone army was something Palpatine needed, with or without Darth Vader.  In the end, it was about outnumbering them.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jun 3, 2005)

DarthSydodyas said:
			
		

> You are both right.
> There were more than two, at some point.  However, given their nature of infighting, they virtually destroyed each other and _the rule of two_ was born.  Or something around those lines.
> Yoda, in Episode 2 mentioned that it was difficult to see through the Dark Side (even during his meditation, he couldnt make out much of the dark side).  It was literally like a cloth over their eyes.
> Ambigous.  Deliberately.  It's real purpose in this film was to lure in Anakin.  A promise of power.
> ...



Tu as raison: merci.

Unfortunately, Lucas didn't choose to reveal any of this to us, the average moviegoers.


----------



## CyberRose (Jun 4, 2005)

Yay! Just got back from seein E3 and be fucked if I'm readin thru 10 pages of shite so I'll just say I thought it was really good!


----------



## Nine Bob Note (Jun 4, 2005)

CyberRose said:
			
		

> Yay! Just got back from seein E3 and be fucked if I'm readin thru 10 pages of shite so I'll just say I thought it was really good!



Eight of those ten pages said it was really good. The others went to the cinema with the express intention of hating it


----------



## Matt S (Jun 4, 2005)

No, I went to the cinema hoping it would be good. It really wasn't.

Matt


----------



## Termite Man (Jun 4, 2005)

Nine Bob Note said:
			
		

> Eight of those ten pages said it was really good. The others went to the cinema with the express intention of hating it


What about the people who thought it was mediocre and would watch it again if it was on TV but certainly won't be wasting their hard earned money geting it on DVD or seeing it at the cinema again ?


----------



## akirajoel (Jun 4, 2005)

I wanted to like it - but it didnt let me.   

On the other hand i loved Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy...

<shrugs>


----------



## ska invita (Jun 4, 2005)

FridgeMagnet said:
			
		

> Packed with "war on terror" metaphors. "Only the Sith deal in absolutes"... just before that, I was convinced Anakin was going to say "if you're not with me you're against me", but instead he says "if you're not with me... (long pause) you're an enemy" which is just a cop-out.



Yes, I was impressed with the comments Lucas makes on Empire, and its current relevance to Bush.

The Sith Lord takes control of the empire not by force as such, but by distabilising the universe and saying that "youre either with us or against us" - as Anakin falls to the dark side he is convinced, in his naivity, that he is working to bring peace to the universe - the viewer can see how the Sith Lord has used "peace and democracy" as a cover for meglamania.

The line "if you're not with me... (long pause) you're an enemy" was absolutely written in for poltical relevance (I'm sure it wasn't in the original 70's scripts).

Episode three ranks with Empire Strikes Back as the best, most serious and tense films of the series in my mind - although Empire is probably a little bit better (I just dont buy ewan mcgregor).

...May the force etc.,


----------



## EastEnder (Jun 5, 2005)

What a pile of wank.

The graphics were nice in places. The acting was more wooden than a dozen forests of oak trees. The bit about the transformations - emperor dude becoming all for-god-sakes-get-him-some-oil-of-ulay and darth going from boy band muppet to hoar-purrr goth dude - was utter, utter wank. Lucas could have come up with far more interesting explanations.

Can't believe I wasted a week downloading it off bittorrent.


----------



## steve2000 (Jun 5, 2005)

*Millennium Falcon Sighting*

I think it's 22 mins 52 seconds into the film. If you look in the bottom right hand corner you appear to see what resembels the Millennium Falcon. (Wasn't sure myself but a mate swears on it).


----------



## Allan (Jun 5, 2005)

steve2000 said:
			
		

> I think it's 22 mins 52 seconds into the film. If you look in the bottom right hand corner you appear to see what resembels the Millennium Falcon. (Wasn't sure myself but a mate swears on it).



It doesn't just resemble the MF, it IS the MF.

"It's tiny, but visible enough to send a warm fuzzy through the hearts of original trilogy fans. In the establishing shot of the expansive Senate docking bays, there's a tiny Millennium Falcon easing into frame. And it's not just a non-descript Corellian freighter; it's on good authority -- namely George Lucas -- that this is the infamous hunk-of-junk before it came into the ownership of either Lando Calrissian or Han Solo. "

http://www.starwars.com/episode-iii/bts/production/f20050526/


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jun 5, 2005)

steve2000 said:
			
		

> I think it's 22 mins 52 seconds into the film. If you look in the bottom right hand corner you appear to see what resembels the Millennium Falcon. (Wasn't sure myself but a mate swears on it).



Yep, correct. It was on the official star wars site along with a few other "easter eggs" that have apparently been hidden in the film...


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jun 5, 2005)

LOL! The odds of that are?! Two posting at exactly the same time about the same thing!


----------



## Allan (Jun 5, 2005)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> LOL! The odds of that are?! Two posting at exactly the same time about the same thing!



Damn my ESP! Being psychic is a curse, I tell you! A CUURRRRRRRRRRSE........!


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jun 5, 2005)

Allan said:
			
		

> Damn my ESP! Being psychic is a curse, I tell you! A CUURRRRRRRRRRSE........!



I reckon its the Force.


----------



## Allan (Jun 5, 2005)

T' Farce is strong with this 'un, tha knows.


----------



## LostNotFound (Jun 5, 2005)

i was about to reply saying bollocks, your mate must be on something.

obviously i need to look a little closer


----------



## LostNotFound (Jun 5, 2005)

oh THERE it is


----------



## the B (Jun 5, 2005)

From that picture it's so obvious


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Jun 6, 2005)

niksativa said:
			
		

> Yes, I was impressed with the comments Lucas makes on Empire, and its current relevance to Bush.
> 
> The Sith Lord takes control of the empire not by force as such, but by distabilising the universe and saying that "youre either with us or against us" - as Anakin falls to the dark side he is convinced, in his naivity, that he is working to bring peace to the universe - the viewer can see how the Sith Lord has used "peace and democracy" as a cover for meglamania.
> 
> ...



Actually, George Bush isn't the first person in history to say 'if you're not with us, you're against us'.


----------



## EastEnder (Jun 6, 2005)

Speak the truth, this fine fellow does.


----------



## richsaint (Jun 6, 2005)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> Yep, correct. It was on the official star wars site along with a few other "easter eggs" that have apparently been hidden in the film...



Apparently ET and Indiana Jones are watching the pod race in Phantom Menace.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jun 6, 2005)

Really? Any links to screen shots for that?!


----------



## DarthSydodyas (Jun 6, 2005)

EastEnder said:
			
		

> Speak the truth, this fine fellow does.


Hmmm...



			
				From that article said:
			
		

> Senator Palpatine seduces Anakin to the dark side in about as much time as it takes for you to finish reading this sentence.


  Nope.  Think again.






			
				From that article said:
			
		

> Nevermind the fact that Anakin knows Palpatine is a Sith lord before accepting his offer


  Yeah, seduction is a funny thing.






			
				From that article said:
			
		

> or that Sith lords are known for doing things like, oh.. I don't know, KILLING MILLIONS OF PEOPLE.


 ?  wtf?  You know NOTHING about the Sith from any of the Star Wars films.






			
				From that article said:
			
		

> Anakin is on a mission to save his wife, Padme, from certain death! Or at least likely death. Okay, it was a dream. But it seemed pretty real during the flashback sequence, so Anakin has no reason not to believe this dream will come true, as is the tendency of dreams.


  Are you even watching the same film?   The dream of Padme would be like the dream of Anakin's mother.   It is a vision of a possible future, not some fantasy conjured up from random events in his life.  Given that his dream of his mother led to her death, he wasnt about to sit around and let the same shit happen to his wife.






			
				From that utterly shit article said:
			
		

> Yes, that's right. The entire reason Anakin switched to the dark side becomes unraveled when he tries to kill Padme, who was the reason he switched to the dark side to begin with. Oops! Of course, Star Wars apologists will try to point out that Anakin was already under the influence of the "dark side" at this point. So that's why the first thing he asks as Darth Vader is whether Padme is safe, right you morons?


  No..... Padme became irrelevant when he made a pact with the Devil.  

Anakin had a thirst for power (watch Episode 2).  He was already slipping towards the dark side, demonstrated blatantly by the Tusken Raiders camp massacre.  More importantly, the devil was establishing a relationship and trust.  By Episode 2, Anakin had Palpatine as a mentor and confidant.

In the end, it took a nudge and one helluva risk, but Palpatine managed to get Anakin to take a route he could not get out of, without losing it ALL.  

When Anakin killed Mace, he would be expelled from the Order, and probably prosecuted under the Republic and face imprisonment (or banishment, whatever the case for a Jedi).  If he killed Palpatine, he would have lost the one chance he had to gain powers that could save Padme (powers that he lusted for, when he confessed to Padme of his killing spree at the Tusken camp, in Episode 2).

Blah!


----------



## CyberRose (Jun 6, 2005)

Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> Actually, George Bush isn't the first person in history to say 'if you're not with us, you're against us'.


Well no, obviously not, it was Anakin Skywalker (hence the "a LONG TIME AGO, in a galaxy far far away" at the beggining of ALL the films    )


----------



## CyberRose (Jun 6, 2005)

richsaint said:
			
		

> Apparently ET and Indiana Jones are watching the pod race in Phantom Menace.


In TPM when they are in the Senate there is one of the pods with three ETs in it


----------



## kakuma (Jun 12, 2005)

i finally saw it

i nearly cried  

i was really fucked off with annakin, he just looks like he should be in the strokes or something, seeing as he's the most important character in the trilogy, why did lucas get shit actors for all three of the films?? (come to think of it, even the old jedi annakin at the end of ROTJ was shit....)

 i didnt like the bits about annakin and natalie portman, 

but it was a fucking ace film, that is one of my fave star wars, and the lightsaber battles kick everythings arse


----------



## richsaint (Jun 12, 2005)

Kid_Eternity said:
			
		

> Really? Any links to screen shots for that?!



I can't find any, but I distinctly remember seeing a picture when episode I came out, it was one of the shots of the pod race grandstands and if you look closely among the thousands of spectators you can see Indy. 

Hmm... maybe i dreamt it   

One thing I did find when searching for 'episode I cameos' though was a story about Nsync having an appearance


----------



## DarthSydodyas (Jun 12, 2005)

Indy (lookalike) is definately there.  I remember him.


----------



## silentNate (Jun 12, 2005)

Respect to Eastender- that picture made me laugh like a drain


----------



## Stavrogin (Jun 18, 2005)

Oh God, I just saw it... How awful... I can't believe how bad it was...

Any time there was a chink of light it was mercilessly quashed

It's only redeeming features were the melodramtic utter darkness of the ending (and yet that was ruined by a gang of laugh out loud moments) and by the Character of Palpatine - Here it seems as if both McDiarmid's acting and the character were willfully sabotaged mid way through.

There's to much awful stuff to mention but for starters:

What was that Lizard thing and why were he and Obi Wan such good friends?


----------



## DarthSydodyas (Jun 19, 2005)

*Assuming you mean Utapu...*




			
				Stavrogin said:
			
		

> What was that Lizard thing and why were he and Obi Wan such good friends?


  It was probably a political thing.  That planet was neutral in the Clone Wars, but non-aggressive towards the Republic.  He helped Obi-Wan enough to get him on his away, and to rid the planet of the Seperatists and any potential of the war being fought out there.  The Seperatists were holding his people prisoner/hostage at that time.


----------



## Stavrogin (Jun 19, 2005)

DarthSydodyas said:
			
		

> It was probably a political thing.  That planet was neutral in the Clone Wars, but non-aggressive towards the Republic.  He helped Obi-Wan enough to get him on his away, and to rid the planet of the Seperatists and any potential of the war being fought out there.  The Seperatists were holding his people prisoner/hostage at that time.



I gathered that but I was just astonished that all of a sudden he starts riding a ridiculous looking lizard - he even uses it to seek up on Grevious - who ever snuck up on someone riding a gigantic lizard?

The flim lacked so much logical continuity I was constantly baffled.


----------



## DarthSydodyas (Jun 19, 2005)

It was a _domesticated_ lizard-thing.  Bit like a horse, only better stunts!


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jun 20, 2005)

Watched Ep 4 yesterday (revisiting them all in light of the new film and also to see how well it connects/contradicts etc), was a little strange in a way now knowing the full backstory after all these years. I must say it's a better film for it though...


----------



## J77 (Sep 19, 2005)

A bit late but watched EPIII twice over the weekend.

By far the best of the prequels!

Loved the way everything was tied together at the end 

Will now read the last few pages of this thread


----------



## J77 (Sep 19, 2005)

Stavrogin said:
			
		

> The flim lacked so much logical continuity I was constantly baffled.


This is quite a good point - there were times when they jumped between planets/star systems a bit too much - but with having to fit everything in between EP2 & 4, I think they did pretty well.

btw: I thought the killing of the 'main' Jedi characters was excellent.


----------



## DarthSydodyas (Sep 19, 2005)

I'm gonna try and pick up a copy of the novelisation.  Some things weren't carried onto the big screen as the Novel depicted them, such as Mace's fear of Palpatine, during their duel.


----------



## J77 (Sep 19, 2005)

DarthSydodyas said:
			
		

> I'm gonna try and pick up a copy of the novelisation.  Some things weren't carried onto the big screen as the Novel depicted them, such as Mace's fear of Palpatine, during their duel.


The three other Jedi that were with Mace got wiped out pretty fast, ie. they hardly moved - did Palpatine have some power over them as soon as they entered his chamber?

Also, what were the sticks that repelled lightsabers (Grievous had one) made out of? I thought only Mandolorian (sp?) armour could block a lightsaber?


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Sep 19, 2005)

Anyone have any idea whether there'll be a boxset with all six movies anytime soon?


----------



## J77 (Sep 19, 2005)

No, but the official EPIII comes out on November 1st: http://www.starwars.com/episode-iii/release/video/news20050725.html


----------



## DarthSydodyas (Sep 19, 2005)

J77 said:
			
		

> The three other Jedi that were with Mace got wiped out pretty fast, ie. they hardly moved - did Palpatine have some power over them as soon as they entered his chamber?


  No, I think they failed to do that scene justice as Palpatine is supposed to be the most powerful of the lot.  Mace was meant to have shown fear, as he fought Palpatine, but this remains hidden in the book.




			
				J77 said:
			
		

> Also, what were the sticks that repelled lightsabers (Grievous had one) made out of? I thought only Mandolorian (sp?) armour could block a lightsaber?


  Those were force pikes, iirc.


----------



## J77 (Sep 19, 2005)

Doesn't Palpatine also imply that his master, Darth Plagueis, was the most powerful Sith - if so, how does Exar Kun fit into proceedings?


----------



## DarthSydodyas (Sep 19, 2005)

Palpatine lied about Plagueis.

We can't say for sure whether he existed, let alone just how powerful he would have been.

Not sure on how much Lucas cares on continuity with EU, esp where the films are concerned.


----------



## J77 (Sep 20, 2005)

DarthSydodyas said:
			
		

> Not sure on how much Lucas cares on continuity with EU, esp where the films are concerned.


Oh, he should... (actually - the Jedi temple on Coruscant looked exactly as I imagined it from EU.)

What's a 'force pike'? I can't remember coming across one.

Is the lightening stuff on them the same as Palpatine's power?

I was a bit surprised they introduced something which could block a lightsaber, aside from Mandolorian and now in the EU - Yuuzon Vong armour (sp?)


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## DarthSydodyas (Sep 20, 2005)

It's probably based on the same technology as the saber (centered around a crystal?).  The lightening won't be the same thing as Palaptines.  afaik, the saber/pikes/etc are independent from the light/dark side.

The TV series for Star Wars might flesh out the EU, although it will be covering the more incidental characters.


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## muser (Dec 16, 2005)

is there to be a tv series, and who is directing it? A link please.


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## gsv (Jul 7, 2006)

Mid-2006 - finally got round to seeing eps II and III 
And by God weren't they shit 

For my money, the biggest difference between the original trilogy and the prequels is that the originals were simple stories told with broad, dramatic strokes while the prequels were made of lots-of-little-bitty-incidents that were supposed to add up to something.

Interspersed with Anakin's and Padme's  bloody gurning.


GS(v)


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## Stigmata (Jul 7, 2006)

J77 said:
			
		

> Oh, he should... (actually - the Jedi temple on Coruscant looked exactly as I imagined it from EU.)
> 
> What's a 'force pike'? I can't remember coming across one.
> 
> ...



Not really into the EU stuff, but you could fight with force pikes in Knights of the Old Republic II. They've supposedly got nowt to do with 'The Force' though.


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## Iam (Jul 7, 2006)

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_pike


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