# UK Votes to Leave EU



## Ponyutd (Jun 24, 2016)

So there it is. A done deal. Never thought it would happen, in shock to be quite honest.

We are out. 
SEISMIC!


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## goldenecitrone (Jun 24, 2016)

Hardly think we can call ourselves a united kingdom anymore.


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## SaskiaJayne (Jun 24, 2016)

Yes, urban needs to get down to some serious Lexit discussion/reasoned intelligent debate soonest.


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## Ponyutd (Jun 24, 2016)

That's very true.


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## Ponyutd (Jun 24, 2016)

How close are we to another Scottish referendum. 18 months!?


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## ska invita (Jun 24, 2016)

What colour Friday is it going to be today?


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## Ponyutd (Jun 24, 2016)

George Galloway still not be seen...how odd.


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## free spirit (Jun 24, 2016)

ska invita said:


> What colour Friday is it going to be today?


purple?


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## ska invita (Jun 24, 2016)

free spirit said:


> purple?


purple black and blue

bruised


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## ska invita (Jun 24, 2016)

MMM Lovely! First UKIPer up talking about 12 months till we have Australian points migrant system  What a lovely morning


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## SpookyFrank (Jun 24, 2016)

ska invita said:


> What colour Friday is it going to be today?



White, the internationally recognised colour of racism.


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## ska invita (Jun 24, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> White, the internationally recognised colour of racism.


you liberal middle class bastard!


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## Yossarian (Jun 24, 2016)

Interesting times - at least we'll probably get to see Cameron's tears.

Going to be tricky making good on my promise to rip out BoJo's heart and show it to him...


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## Ponyutd (Jun 24, 2016)

"Interesting times" doesn't do it justice.


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## free spirit (Jun 24, 2016)

will Cameron last the day out?

I suspect he'll stay just long enough to sign the bit of paper needed to kick start the 2 year process for leaving the EU, then piss off and leave someone else to deal with the mess.


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## Supine (Jun 24, 2016)

I feel like crying


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## ska invita (Jun 24, 2016)

We know that Scotland voted Remain and will likely have another referendum, but interesting that Northern Ireland did also, and theres now a big issue about the NI border and the EU border with Ireland.... a neat solution would be if NI left UK and made a union with Ireland


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## ska invita (Jun 24, 2016)

Supine said:


> I feel like crying


supposedly these are salty liberal tears. I read it on urban


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## Ponyutd (Jun 24, 2016)

Gerry Adams ready to make a statement later.


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## ska invita (Jun 24, 2016)

this is an exciting graph!


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## treefrog (Jun 24, 2016)

In a state of slight shock. WTAF.


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## Wilhelmina.Trav (Jun 24, 2016)

Am watching news now n we're leaving. There's a photo of Farage in triumpth ugh how I hate that man. 

Cameron should resign!!!!

Evey


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## kebabking (Jun 24, 2016)

Tits.


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## ska invita (Jun 24, 2016)

kebabking said:


> Tits.


Sorry, no more Eurotrash Im afraid


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## ska invita (Jun 24, 2016)

ska invita said:


> We know that Scotland voted Remain and will likely have another referendum, but interesting that Northern Ireland did also, and theres now a big issue about the NI border and the EU border with Ireland.... a neat solution would be if NI left UK and made a union with Ireland


Sinn Fein calling just for that now on the ticker tape! A possible forthcoming referendum.....


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## Wilhelmina.Trav (Jun 24, 2016)

The markets are plunging. The futse 100 looking looking good. We're in for a hard time. A recession. FFS what have we done!!!!!

What have we done 

The value of pound nose dived againsy the dolla first in 34 years.....

Evey


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## ska invita (Jun 24, 2016)

Ponyutd said:


> George Galloway still not be seen...how odd.


hes posted on twitter.

a picture.

of himself.


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## Buddy Bradley (Jun 24, 2016)

When do we start getting calls for referenda to break up England into Wessex and Mercia et al?


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## Wilhelmina.Trav (Jun 24, 2016)

Apparently "watching Good Morning Britain" it may trigger another referendum for Scotland independence. Noooooo. United we stand divided we fall.... Resign Cameron. He should deffo resign. 

Evey


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## Nine Bob Note (Jun 24, 2016)

Curse my father for throwing out all that out of date tinned food last week. Buy water, beans and batteries!

Theresa May to be temporary PM by tea time?


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## Yossarian (Jun 24, 2016)

Buddy Bradley said:


> When do we start getting calls for referenda to break up England into Wessex and Mercia et al?



Looking at the map of where voted to Remain, I'd be totally in favour of an independent Merseyside, could rake it in as a duty-free port.


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## ska invita (Jun 24, 2016)

I havent followed the campaign that closely - has anyone given a definitive answer to what will happen once we officially leave to
1. people from EU countries who are currently in the UK
2. People from the UK living in EU countries
?


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## Wilhelmina.Trav (Jun 24, 2016)

Teresa May? Aint she the one who came up with the Psychoactive substance Act?  Ugh I dont't know what's worst.....

Evey


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## TopCat (Jun 24, 2016)

Likely get a United Ireland now. Yay!


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## ska invita (Jun 24, 2016)

It must be Boris as PM Id have thought, but maybe Theresa as an interim? I reckon theyll just get Boris in asap.


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## Dogsauce (Jun 24, 2016)

Shit just got real.

Girlfriend had three job interviews yesterday that sounded positive, having already given notice at her old place because she couldn't face going back after maternity leave. Possibilities of these jobs materialising is now quite a bit less (both our jobs ties to construction industry). This could be a big fuckover for my family. FFS tories.


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## Liveist (Jun 24, 2016)

Not just leaving the EU but also dividing itself its own Union up considering Scotland, Northern Ireland and London said remain and potentially reinstating the border with the Republic of Ireland... Well done UK.


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## mauvais (Jun 24, 2016)

Fucking hell.


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## Bernie Gunther (Jun 24, 2016)

Oops ...


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## ska invita (Jun 24, 2016)

TopCat said:


> Likely get a United Ireland now. Yay!


IF that does happen that would be a really nice outcome.
And then if Scotland referendum goes for Independence and leave England and Wales to it, I reckon it might trigger another referendum back in England + Wales to rejoin the EU


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## Gromit (Jun 24, 2016)

Today I feel ashamed to be British.


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## Ponyutd (Jun 24, 2016)

We should have a 14 day cooling off period


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## Dogsauce (Jun 24, 2016)

Bernie Gunther said:


> Oops ...



Oil and gas imports just got a bit more expensive...

At least that might mean fewer cars on the road


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## moonsi til (Jun 24, 2016)

I am in shock , did not expect that at all.


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## bi0boy (Jun 24, 2016)

Dogsauce said:


> Oil and gas imports just got a bit more expensive...
> 
> At least that might mean fewer cars on the road


 
Until we get our fracking up to speed


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## Wilhelmina.Trav (Jun 24, 2016)

Donald Trump is flying into Scotland right now. 

Evey


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## PursuedByBears (Jun 24, 2016)

Fuck.


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## kazza007 (Jun 24, 2016)

This is devastating

Parliament can still reject it? Chances of another referendum upon further renegotiation low?


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## seventh bullet (Jun 24, 2016)

Oh no!  What have the plebs done?  I've started packing the sixth bullet's bags.


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## extra dry (Jun 24, 2016)

Did not expect it and reeling what will happen to the jobs, trade and everything else the media was bashing on about?


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## Wilhelmina.Trav (Jun 24, 2016)

Farage talking now on Good Morning Britain

Evey


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## Mr.Bishie (Jun 24, 2016)

Time to smash this Tory gov then?


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## NoXion (Jun 24, 2016)

Not shocked, but I am surprised. I honestly thought it would go the other way.


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## Yossarian (Jun 24, 2016)

Thing that surprises me is that a sizable proportion of Middle England appears to have voted against their own home prices, which I would not have bet on.


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## Looby (Jun 24, 2016)

I really believed it wouldn't happen. Fuck. I don't want to live in my town full of kippers and tories anymore. I don't want to live in the UK either. Just signed up to 3 years at uni here but after that I'll seriously think about moving.


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## tommers (Jun 24, 2016)

Fuck's sake.


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## tommers (Jun 24, 2016)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Time to smash this Tory gov then?


Yeah,  looking forward to that.  Should be good.


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## ElizabethofYork (Jun 24, 2016)

Pesky democracy


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## extra dry (Jun 24, 2016)

will the thai baht will be worth a fortune now.


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## tommers (Jun 24, 2016)

Out of all the things to give "a message to the establishment" about,  they choose this?


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## Coolfonz (Jun 24, 2016)

It's gonna be a bumpy ride!! Short the FTSE before it opens! Go FTFx FTSE 100 Super Short !!!  

Sterling at e1.20...

Quite exciting really...

Now its on the leavers to come up trumps, make sure all those dire economic predictions were wrong, if it goes pear shaped, buy ropes and lamposts... woohoooooooo!! 

My prediction - all sides are now going to try and back off from the edge, points based immigration system? No way. Leaving the single market? No way. If I'm right and you read this, you owe me £500 each.


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## seventh bullet (Jun 24, 2016)

tommers said:


> Out of all the things to give "a message to the establishment" about,  they choose this?



Who is 'they'?


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## Wilhelmina.Trav (Jun 24, 2016)

What a wanker Farage is he advertised the £300m goimg to Europe would go to the NHS - he's now saying that was a ploy as he was ostracized. Ugh!

Evey


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## Nine Bob Note (Jun 24, 2016)

Will Disco Dave call a general election before resigning?


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## ska invita (Jun 24, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> Now its on the leavers to come up trumps, make sure all those dire economic predictions were wrong, if it goes pear shaped, buy ropes and lamposts... woohoooooooo!!


Who are the Leavers in power? As it stands its the RIght of the Tory party basically.

Whens the next election?


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## ska invita (Jun 24, 2016)

Wilhelmina.Trav said:


> What a wanker Farage is he advertised the £300m goimg to Europe would go to the NHS - he's now saying that was a ploy as he was ostracized. Ugh!
> 
> Evey


Curious to watch that but if I never see his smug face again Id die happy


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## Reiabuzz (Jun 24, 2016)

Fuck Britain. Backward little fucking island. I'm out, never should've come back to this shithole. That's it. The only thing it had going for it was that was 'in' Europe.


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## ska invita (Jun 24, 2016)

Nine Bob Note said:


> Will Disco Dave call a general election before resigning?


No


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## seventh bullet (Jun 24, 2016)

Reiabuzz said:


> Fuck Britain. Backward little fucking island. I'm out, never should've come back to this shithole. That's it. The only thing it had going for it was that was 'in' Europe.



Fuck off then.


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## ska invita (Jun 24, 2016)

Reiabuzz said:


> Fuck Britain. Backward little fucking island. I'm out, never should've come back to this shithole. That's it. The only thing it had going for it was that was 'in' Europe.


Where did you come from to be here?


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## Coolfonz (Jun 24, 2016)

ska invita said:


> Who are the Leavers in power? As it stands its the RIght of the Tory party basically.
> 
> Whens the next election?


Just depends what happens now. If they say they are leaving single market, well, personally that means folks on the dole, at least in the short term, but for them maybe its a price worth paying...it has been before. Scotland and N Ireland is very interesting. This is gonna be a laugh.


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## Steel Icarus (Jun 24, 2016)

Whichever side won the gloating was going to be awful. I'm trying hard to have nothing to do with the aftermath. Facebook I will check though, can't imagine how many incredulous liberals on my timeline are covering themselves in glory by banging on about stupid chavs etc.


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## Doctor Carrot (Jun 24, 2016)

Fuck me it's like a liberal melt down on the radio. Fuck. Have no fear that.. Err.. Left wing plan will now swing into action...


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## mauvais (Jun 24, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> If I'm right and you read this, you owe me £500 each.


Might want to get paid in dollars.


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## seventh bullet (Jun 24, 2016)

S☼I said:


> Whichever side won the gloating was going to be awful. I'm trying hard to have nothing to do with the aftermath. Facebook I will check though, can't imagine how many incredulous liberals on my timeline are covering themselves in glory by banging on about stupid chavs etc.



There'll be plenty of that on here.


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## krtek a houby (Jun 24, 2016)

This country was so good to us, despite the trials and triubulations. Am gutted. We both are.

Yes, we're leaving in a few months but with a bad taste now  what have you done?


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## Reiabuzz (Jun 24, 2016)

seventh bullet said:


> Fuck off then.



Oh, I will be. Already looking into other arrangements. You keep your nasty little fucking country.


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## seventh bullet (Jun 24, 2016)

Reiabuzz said:


> Oh, I will be. Already looking into other arrangements. You keep your nasty little fucking country.



Cool.  My non-white immigrant partner tells you to fuck off as well.


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## mk12 (Jun 24, 2016)

seventh bullet said:


> There'll be plenty of that on here.


Twitter is the same. I've just had to remind my friend that not everyone who voted to leave is a bigot.


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## beesonthewhatnow (Jun 24, 2016)

Slow handclap to every prick here that voted out. Well done you fucking twats.


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## ska invita (Jun 24, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> This country was so good to us, despite the trials and triubulations. Am gutted. We both are.
> 
> Yes, we're leaving in a few months but with a bad taste now  what have you done?


where are you off too?
Oh an happy birthday


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## beesonthewhatnow (Jun 24, 2016)

mk12 said:


> Twitter is the same. I've just had to remind my friend that not everyone who voted to leave is a bigot.


They may not be bigots, just fucking idiots.


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## Reiabuzz (Jun 24, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> This country was so good to us, despite the trials and triubulations. Am gutted. We both are.
> 
> Yes, we're leaving in a few months but with a bad taste now  what have you done?



I agree. Britain gave me so much, my start in life in many ways. This result just reinforces what I had suspected lies underneath here though and that's what I find so depressing. It feels like my wife of 25 years has been having an affair. Kick in the teeth.


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## seventh bullet (Jun 24, 2016)

The racist thickies won.


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## krtek a houby (Jun 24, 2016)

ska invita said:


> where are you off too?
> Oh an happy birthday



Japan! Was always our plan but after redundancy last year it's been speeded up. Still sad to leave and even more saddened today.


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## krtek a houby (Jun 24, 2016)

Reiabuzz said:


> I agree. Britain gave me so much, my start in life in many ways. This result just reinforces what I had suspected lies underneath here though and that's what I find so depressing. It feels like my wife of 25 years has been having an affair. Kick in the teeth.



It's horrible. This doesn't feel like the country I first lived in back in '88.

What have they done????


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## Doctor Carrot (Jun 24, 2016)

So Cameron's gotta go now surely the pig fucking cunt can't survive this?


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## mauvais (Jun 24, 2016)

seventh bullet said:


> The racist thickies won.


They have.


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## Gromit (Jun 24, 2016)

Is there any way for me to apply to still be in Europe?

My passport doesn't expire for 7 years and says European Union on it. That's still valid yes?


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## Buddy Bradley (Jun 24, 2016)

seventh bullet said:


> The racist thickies won.


So, I understand the reasons that stupid people might have voted Leave - years of being told by The Sun that barmy eurocrats are trying to tell us what our bananas should look like, while foreigners come over and take their jobs.

But why were relatively intelligent pensioners so anti-Europe? Their jobs are clearly not under threat, they benefit from all of the immigrants that populate the health service, and many of them take holidays or own property in Europe. What drove them to be so rabidly in favour of leaving?


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## discokermit (Jun 24, 2016)

thicko proles.


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## ska invita (Jun 24, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> Japan! Was always our plan but after redundancy last year it's been speeded up. Still sad to leave and even more saddened today.


Ah good luck! It'll be a wonderful experience  Lifes too short to spend it sitting on this soggy island. Might as well spend some time on a humid one in the pacific


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## krtek a houby (Jun 24, 2016)

seventh bullet said:


> Fuck off then.



People are grieving today. Try and keep that in mind,


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## mk12 (Jun 24, 2016)

Buddy Bradley said:


> So, I understand the reasons that stupid people might have voted Leave - years of being told by The Sun that barmy eurocrats are trying to tell us what our bananas should look like, while foreigners come over and take their jobs.
> 
> But why were relatively intelligent pensioners so anti-Europe? Their jobs are clearly not under threat, they benefit from all of the immigrants that populate the health service, and many of them take holidays or own property in Europe. What drove them to be so rabidly in favour of leaving?


Jesus. How long is urban going to be like this for?


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## seventh bullet (Jun 24, 2016)

mauvais said:


> They have.



A sad day for liberal democracy.


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## krtek a houby (Jun 24, 2016)

ska invita said:


> Ah good luck! It'll be a wonderful experience  Lifes too short to spend it sitting on this soggy island. Might as well spend some time on a humid one in the pacific



This soggy little island was my home for nearly 20 years. Am devestated but yes, time to move on.


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## Steel Icarus (Jun 24, 2016)

Here goes nothing everyone - logging into Facebook to see how thick and racist I've become overnight


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## redsquirrel (Jun 24, 2016)

seventh bullet said:


> The racist thickies won.


Amazing, they still don't get it do they. Doubling down on this shit.


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## discokermit (Jun 24, 2016)

this has been an excellent pointer on how much the middle class hates the working class.


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## krtek a houby (Jun 24, 2016)

discokermit said:


> thicko proles.



Sneering - that's exactly what's needed today. Well said, you.


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## Winot (Jun 24, 2016)




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## krtek a houby (Jun 24, 2016)

discokermit said:


> this has been an excellent pointer on how much the middle class hates thee working class.



Nah, just an excellent pointer on the obssessiveness of a few impotent urbanites.


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## mauvais (Jun 24, 2016)

seventh bullet said:


> A sad day for liberal democracy.


You can smirk about it, I suppose. And you'd be right to mock anyone who thinks the Brexit-voting public are all racist idiots.

But the racists have still won, which doesn't seem like much to crow about.


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## ska invita (Jun 24, 2016)

Buddy Bradley said:


> But why were relatively intelligent pensioners so anti-Europe? Their jobs are clearly not under threat, they benefit from all of the immigrants that populate the health service, and many of them take holidays or own property in Europe. What drove them to be so rabidly in favour of leaving?


Pension funds and pensioner poverty is going to be a big issue at least in the short term and could go much longer than that. Turkeys voting for Christmas in that regard


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## seventh bullet (Jun 24, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> Sneering - that's exactly what's needed today. Well said, you.



Wait until more people are out of bed or bored at work.  It's going to be liberal meltdown today.  And it'll be my mum's fault.


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## Dogsauce (Jun 24, 2016)

Buddy Bradley said:


> So, I understand the reasons that stupid people might have voted Leave - years of being told by The Sun that barmy eurocrats are trying to tell us what our bananas should look like, while foreigners come over and take their jobs.
> 
> But why were relatively intelligent pensioners so anti-Europe? Their jobs are clearly not under threat, they benefit from all of the immigrants that populate the health service, and many of them take holidays or own property in Europe. What drove them to be so rabidly in favour of leaving?



A lot are retired, own their homes outright, so don't have much at stake, driven partly by nostalgia for better times. Others have no stake in anything, so feel like nothing to lose, and fuck those that put them there. The folks in the middle are the ones that'll take the damage.

(((Middle England)))


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## krtek a houby (Jun 24, 2016)

seventh bullet said:


> Wait until more people are out of bed or bored at work.  It's going to be liberal meltdown today.  And it'll be my mum's fault.



"liberal" blah blah blah.

How Trumpish they sound each and every time.


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## Yossarian (Jun 24, 2016)

Buddy Bradley said:


> But why were relatively intelligent pensioners so anti-Europe? Their jobs are clearly not under threat, they benefit from all of the immigrants that populate the health service, and many of them take holidays or own property in Europe. What drove them to be so rabidly in favour of leaving?



They want to see a return to the UK of their youth, when Britain was a glorious, strong, independent world power unfettered by regulations imposed by an overgrown bureaucracy in Brussels, and there was food rationing.


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## NoXion (Jun 24, 2016)

The racists are going to be sorely disappointed when it turns that the referendum result doesn't mean that all the forrins are to be deported post-haste.


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## seventh bullet (Jun 24, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> "liberal" blah blah blah.
> 
> How Trumpish they sound each and every time.



I know.  So thick and racist.


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## Mab (Jun 24, 2016)

Oh no, really thought it would be remain. Condolences from Canada.


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## Buddy Bradley (Jun 24, 2016)

NoXion said:


> The racists are going to be sorely disappointed when it turns that the referendum result doesn't mean that all the forrins are to be deported post-haste.


All the Leave campaigners are super-eager to stress that point on the BBC coverage this morning, that the result means absolutely nothing changes today, and probably not for a very long time.

I do wonder how long it's going to be before we start to hear reports of immigrants being attacked or abused on UK streets as a direct result of the referendum result.


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## redsquirrel (Jun 24, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> Nah, just an excellent pointer on the obssessiveness of a few impotent urbanites.


Yeah I mean it's not like 17m voted Leave is it. Not that there is a correlation between class and Leave votes. That much of that motivation was based on the anger they feel having been attacked for 30+ years by neo-liberalism.


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## krtek a houby (Jun 24, 2016)

seventh bullet said:


> I know.  So thick and racist.



So sneery.


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## Ponyutd (Jun 24, 2016)

Yossarian said:


> They want to see a return to the UK of their youth, when Britain was a glorious, strong, independent world power unfettered by regulations imposed by an overgrown bureaucracy in Brussels, and there was food rationing.


But at least you could leave you front door open


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## ska invita (Jun 24, 2016)

Corbyn is about to be on the BBC1. Am interested to see how secretly happy he might be.


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## seventh bullet (Jun 24, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> So sneery.



White Trash.  Scum.  Chavs.


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## krtek a houby (Jun 24, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> Yeah I mean it's not like 17m voted Leave is it. Not that there is a correlation between class and Leave votes. That much of that motivation was based on the anger they feel having been attacked for 30+ years by neo-liberalism.



Beetle off with your class shite.

Enjoy isolationist little england; I'm sure you've got what you want - just don't expect the rest of us to dance for joy.


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## krtek a houby (Jun 24, 2016)

seventh bullet said:


> White Trash.  Scum.  Chavs.



Aesehole flexing "political" muscles


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## Buddy Bradley (Jun 24, 2016)

seventh bullet said:


> White Trash.  Scum.  Chavs.


Can you two go suck each other's dicks somewhere else?


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## NoXion (Jun 24, 2016)

Buddy Bradley said:


> All the Leave campaigners are super-eager to stress that point on the BBC coverage this morning, that the result means absolutely nothing changes today, and probably not for a very long time.



How do you go from "foreigners won't be kicked out" to "absolutely nothing will change"? That's a fair-sized leap in logic.


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## redsquirrel (Jun 24, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> Beetle off with your class shite.
> 
> Enjoy isolationist little england; I'm sure you've got what you want - just don't expect the rest of us to dance for joy.


Are you seriously trying to deny that there is a correlation between class and leave voting? If so you are simply wrong.


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## seventh bullet (Jun 24, 2016)

Class doesn't matter.


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## krtek a houby (Jun 24, 2016)

Buddy Bradley said:


> Can you two go suck each other's dicks somewhere else?



Hey man, I'm seriously unhappy this morning - I can't help it if someone gets all class warrior on my Irish ass....


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## Buddy Bradley (Jun 24, 2016)

NoXion said:


> How do you go from "foreigners won't be kicked out" to "absolutely nothing will change"? That's a fair-sized leap in logic.


Well clearly absolutely nothing has changed today. And not a lot is going to happen, at least in terms of laws that apply to the various things the Leave campaign promised, for at least a year or two, maybe longer depending on who you believe.

And ultimately, I believe that there's not going to be all that much change in the long term anyway.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 24, 2016)

seventh bullet said:


> Who is 'they'?



The proles, gin soaked loons the lot of 'em


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## seventh bullet (Jun 24, 2016)

discokermit said:


> this has been an excellent pointer on how much the middle class hates the working class.



This.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 24, 2016)

Has the channel tunnel been filled in yet?


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## krtek a houby (Jun 24, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> Are you seriously trying to deny that there is a correlation between class and leave voting? If so you are simply wrong.
> View attachment 88811



One thing I won't miss with this country is the obsssession with "class". 

Am amazed how some elements of the "left" have alligned themselves with Brexiteer stars like Farage and co.

Am fucking grieving today - if you want to make a class thing out of it; fine but it means nothing to me.


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## krtek a houby (Jun 24, 2016)

seventh bullet said:


> This.



 Not this


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## bi0boy (Jun 24, 2016)

Wow David Dimbelby is still going.


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## krtek a houby (Jun 24, 2016)

bi0boy said:


> Wow David Dimbelby is still going.



Got to hand it to the man.


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## mauvais (Jun 24, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> Are you seriously trying to deny that there is a correlation between class and leave voting? If so you are simply wrong.
> View attachment 88811


Well, at least that data's got the "idiots" bit covered.


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## Plumdaff (Jun 24, 2016)

Don't worry everyone, several Lexiters on my Facebook have declared for a general strike!


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 24, 2016)

Why is the BBC still leading with pound drops against dollar? Has the project fear narrative not been dropped yet or are they really concerned what is going on in currency markets that are not the £,$ or € as these have not yet opened?


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## Doctor Carrot (Jun 24, 2016)

Plumdaff said:


> Don't worry everyone, several Lexiters on my Facebook have declared for a general strike!


I knew that lexiter plan would swing right into organised action!


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## seventh bullet (Jun 24, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> Not this



We'll see more of it in action today. The ignorance and bigotry. The confidence and pomposity with which they punch down.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 24, 2016)

bi0boy said:


> Wow David Dimbelby is still going.




EU grade whizz been hoovered up by that man all night


----------



## mauvais (Jun 24, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Why is the BBC still leading with pound drops against dollar? Has the project fear narrative not been dropped yet or are they really concerned what is going on in currency markets that are not the £,$ or € as these have not yet opened?


Currency markets are open 24h are they not?

Stock markets run much more like 9-5. UK and Euro markets open at 8.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 24, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> EU grade whizz been hoovered up by that man all night



All joking aside; what a great presenter. And a reminder (to me at least) of one of the things am gonna miss about this place.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 24, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> One thing I won't miss with this country is the obsssession with "class".
> 
> Am amazed how some elements of the "left" have alligned themselves with Brexiteer stars like Farage and co.
> 
> Am fucking grieving today - if you want to make a class thing out of it; fine but it means nothing to me.


Look at the graphs. Whether you like it or not it's the height of stupidity to pretend that class is irrelevant. Of course there are working class people who voted Remain (especially in NI, London and Scotland) but the majority of the English and Welsh people voted for Leave, and that Leave vote was strongest in deprived areas. If you and your mates had even the smallest iota of common sense you might ask why that is the case. That perhaps their experience of the EU in their lives is a a result of their position in society, i.e. their class!.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 24, 2016)

mauvais said:


> Currency markets are open 24h are they not?
> 
> Stock markets run much more like 9-5. UK and Euro markets open at 8.



The only proper trading in the past couple of hours has been in the Far East, even the coke addled UK/US traders need time to sleep.


----------



## ska invita (Jun 24, 2016)

Plumdaff said:


> Don't worry everyone, several Lexiters on my Facebook have declared for a general strike!


ooh, Monday works well for me.


----------



## treelover (Jun 24, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> All joking aside; what a great presenter. And a reminder (to me at least) of one of the things am gonna miss about this place.



Ex Bullingdon.


----------



## discokermit (Jun 24, 2016)

mauvais said:


> Well, at least that data's got the "idiots" bit covered.


would that be the education related data?


----------



## seventh bullet (Jun 24, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> Look at the graphs. Whether you like it or not it's the height of stupidity to pretend that class is irrelevant. Of course there are working class people who voted Remain (especially in NI, London and Scotland) but the majority of the English and Welsh people voted for Leave, and that Leave vote was strongest in deprived areas. If you and your mates had even the smallest iota of common sense you might ask why that is the case. That perhaps their experience of the EU in their lives is a a result of their position in society, i.e. their class!.



That's easy.  People in deprived areas tend to be more thick and racist.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 24, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> Look at the graphs. Whether you like it or not it's the height of stupidity to pretend that class is irrelevant. Of course there are working class people who voted Remain (especially in NI, London and Scotland) but the majority of the English and Welsh people voted for Leave, and that Leave vote was strongest in deprived areas. If you and your mates had even the smallest iota of common sense you might ask why that is the case. That perhaps their experience of the EU in their lives is a a result of their position in society, i.e. their class!.




It's odd that it's almost like these ingrates don't like having their jobs/money/houses/prospects taken from them. They're too stupid to know that it for everyone's benefit that they and their kids must suffer.


----------



## Geri (Jun 24, 2016)

NoXion said:


> The racists are going to be sorely disappointed when it turns that the referendum result doesn't mean that all the forrins are to be deported post-haste.


 
My dad informed last week me that should the vote be to leave, it has to be implemented *the next day. *He thinks we should have all ties cut by this evening.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 24, 2016)

treelover said:


> Ex Bullingdon.



Really? I guess one of the better ones, then. I didn't know. Not being obssesses with people's origins etc...


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jun 24, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> Am amazed how some elements of the "left" have alligned themselves with Brexiteer stars like Farage and co.


Ah do one. I aligned with nobody, went into the booth and answered a question and only that. Not my business who anyone else votes for.


----------



## Buddy Bradley (Jun 24, 2016)

Bit shit that turnout was lower than Scotland managed last time.


----------



## mauvais (Jun 24, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> The only proper trading in the past couple of hours has been in the Far East, even the coke addled UK/US traders need time to sleep.


It's already reacted - look at GBP/USD since yesterday. 1.36 apparently.

The real fun comes in 40 mins when the FTSE falls off a cliff and we automatically launch Trident at ourselves. I assume that's the modern version of 'is Radio 4 still broadcasting'.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 24, 2016)

seventh bullet said:


> That's easy.  People in deprived areas tend to be more thick and racist.



Is this humour or are you trying to make some "point" here?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 24, 2016)

mauvais said:


> It's already reacted - look at GBP/USD since yesterday. 1.36 apparently.
> 
> The real fun comes in 40 mins when the FTSE falls off a cliff and we automatically launch Trident at ourselves. I assume that's the modern version of 'is Radio 4 still broadcasting'.




I know, all those people working at Sports Direct will be gutted to see their portfolios tumble.


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Jun 24, 2016)

Someone on the radio 'we won't have to build as many houses a year now we'll have less people coming in' fuck sake. 

Seems old people have swung it apparently. They vote Tory every fucking time too, can't tell me they did this for some glorious blow against the ruling class or whatever such guff.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 24, 2016)

S☼I said:


> Ah do one. I aligned with nobody, went into the booth and answered a question and only that. Not my business who anyone else votes for.


----------



## seventh bullet (Jun 24, 2016)

S☼I said:


> Ah do one. I aligned with nobody, went into the booth and answered a question and only that. Not my business who anyone else votes for.



I'm 'Trumpish' apparently.  From Mr. Class Doesn't Matter, that's code for thick prole.


----------



## ska invita (Jun 24, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> I know, all those people working at Sports Direct will be gutted to see their portfolios tumble.


pensioners
pension poverty could be a big deal in the short term


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jun 24, 2016)

discokermit said:


> this has been an excellent pointer on how much the middle class hates the working class.


Lol, innit. First eight or so Fb posts on my timeline are hilarious. Ashamed to have a British passport. Sobbing. Victory for racists.  Dear god what have we done. Stupid people have been allowed to wreck our country. People with a degree voted remain - that tells you everything. Now we have to deal with a right-wing government (!)


----------



## mauvais (Jun 24, 2016)

discokermit said:


> would that be the education related data?


Not particularly serious. But some bleak humour across this episode in seeing large bias away from expertise and qualification, both in public discourse and demographics. If you had a crass headline to write...


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 24, 2016)

seventh bullet said:


> I'm 'Trumpish' apparently.  From Mr. Class Doesn't Matter, that's code for thick prole.



Sez you. Jeez, i thought I was paranoid!


----------



## spanglechick (Jun 24, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> I know, all those people working at Sports Direct will be gutted to see their portfolios tumble.


Don't be a twat.  They'll find it harder to buy fuel and food. Jobs will be lost.   Stock market and currency crashes hit the poor very hard indeed.


----------



## Yata (Jun 24, 2016)

2016 what a year fucking hell


----------



## ska invita (Jun 24, 2016)

Plumdaff said:


> Don't worry everyone, several Lexiters on my Facebook have declared for a general strike!


out of interest what are we striking for? what are our demands?


----------



## Geri (Jun 24, 2016)

First friend on the day on Facebook told to fuck off. Laughing about how "the Poles" are going to have to start paying for the NHS.


----------



## Biscuitician (Jun 24, 2016)

ska invita said:


> hes posted on twitter.
> 
> a picture.
> 
> of himself.



Good to know that the millionaire self publicist George galloway is OK. I'd hate for the  millionaire self publicist George Galloway to suffer because of a rise of xenophobic sentiment in the country


----------



## seventh bullet (Jun 24, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


>


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 24, 2016)

ska invita said:


> pensioners
> pension poverty could be a big deal in the short term



Gideon's finished, so maybe we can now have someone who doesn't need his fingers and toes to count and things may get better for the old dears?


----------



## Plumdaff (Jun 24, 2016)

Doctor Carrot said:


> Someone on the radio 'we won't have to build as many houses a year now we'll have less people coming in' fuck sake.
> 
> Seems old people have swung it apparently. They vote Tory every fucking time too, can't tell me they did this for some glorious blow against the ruling class or whatever such guff.



One small silver lining is thinking how upset they'll be about their house prices dropping.
Then I remember that they'll be more cushioned from the recession than the rest of us.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 24, 2016)

spanglechick said:


> Don't be a twat.  They'll find it harder to buy fuel and food. Jobs will be lost.   Stock market and currency crashes hit the poor very hard indeed.




You really have bought their bullshit, haven't you.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 24, 2016)

At this moment I'm currently listening to Farage on the BBC, he's just made the point that Leave won this vote in the North and Midlands and that this win was based on the fact that those communities had been 'left behind' (not a direct quote).

Of course I don't believe he gives a shit for people in those communities but he at least has enough nous to recognise the massive anger, fear, worry and pain that so many people in Britain feel. What does it say about liberals like krtek a houby  that they can't see that.


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Jun 24, 2016)

Plumdaff said:


> One small silver lining is thinking how upset they'll about their house price.
> Then I remember that they'll be more cushioned from the recession than the rest of us.


One definite silver lining is George Osbourne will never be prime minister.


----------



## Biscuitician (Jun 24, 2016)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Time to smash this Tory gov then?


Add of that's going to happen


----------



## Mrs Miggins (Jun 24, 2016)

Shit. Well that's another reason for me to move to New Zealand then


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 24, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> At this moment I'm currently listening to Farage on the BBC, he's just made the point that Leave won this vote in the North and Midlands and that this win was based on the fact that those communities had been 'left behind' (not a direct quote).
> 
> Of course I don't believe he gives a shit for people in those communities but he at least has enough nous to recognise the massive anger, fear, worry and pain that so many people in Britain feel. What does it say about liberals like krtek a houby  that they can't see that.



Yeah. Let's target immigrant unemployed mentally ill liberals like krtek whilst giving Nigel the benefit of the doubt. After all, got to flash my credentials here on urban, no matter what.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jun 24, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Gideon's finished, so maybe we can now have someone who doesn't need his fingers and toes to count and things may get better for the old dears?


Six years into this Tory government and you still haven't twigged that Osborne has done very well - for his people.


----------



## bi0boy (Jun 24, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Gideon's finished, so maybe we can now have someone who doesn't need his fingers and toes to count and things may get better for the old dears?



Like Gove, "lol".


----------



## seventh bullet (Jun 24, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> Yeah. Let's target immigrant unemployed mentally ill liberals like krtek whilst giving Nigel the benefit of the doubt. After all, got to flash my credentials here on urban, no matter what.



Piss off.  He isn't attacking you for being an immigrant you slimy prick.  Nor is he siding with Farage.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 24, 2016)

Mrs Miggins said:


> Shit. Well that's another reason for me to move to New Zealand then



New Zealand's not in the EU either?


----------



## seventh bullet (Jun 24, 2016)

Mrs Miggins said:


> Shit. Well that's another reason for me to move to New Zealand then



See ya.


----------



## mauvais (Jun 24, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> You really have bought their bullshit, haven't you.


She's right though. In the proud history of the market, share price collapse is about half an inch away from 'restructuring' and job losses, not that there were any jobs in the conventional sense to begin with.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 24, 2016)

seventh bullet said:


>





seventh bullet said:


> Piss off.  He isn't attacking you for being an immigrant you slimy prick.  Nor is he siding with Farage.



Don't worry, Nigel. we are pissing off out of this once welcoming country and it's little armies of the right and little armies of the left.


----------



## seventh bullet (Jun 24, 2016)

krtek a houby's passive aggressive slurs, then 'Why are you banging on about class?'


----------



## Dandred (Jun 24, 2016)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Slow handclap to every prick here that voted out. Well done you fucking twats.



Likewise slow-clap to the twats who drew cocks of their ballots. Fucking cunt bubbles.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 24, 2016)

Mrs Miggins said:


> Shit. Well that's another reason for me to move to New Zealand then



Don't blame you. Elements of the left and right have had intercourse and produced today's bastard of a result.

Little England.


----------



## Plumdaff (Jun 24, 2016)

ska invita said:


> out of interest what are we striking for? what are our demands?



We'll sort that later. The main point is GENERAL STRIKE NOW


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 24, 2016)

seventh bullet said:


> krtek a houby's passive aggressive slurs, then 'Why are you banging on about class?'



Ironic, given your moniker.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 24, 2016)

seventh bullet said:


> See ya.



Sentiment not a million miles away from the "if you don't like it; fuck off out of our country" shit.

Little England.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 24, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> Yeah. Let's target immigrant unemployed mentally ill liberals like krtek whilst giving Nigel the benefit of the doubt. After all, got to flash my credentials here on urban, no matter what.


Please read what I said, I haven't attacked you on this thread. Nor have I sided with Farage, I've simply pointed out that your 'class doesn't exist' nonsense is a major part of the reason why Leave won, because class is real and it is part of the reason why so many decided to vote Leave.


----------



## Mrs Miggins (Jun 24, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> New Zealand's not in the EU either?


...and it's a long long way fro the shitty UK


----------



## ska invita (Jun 24, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> At this moment I'm currently listening to Farage on the BBC, he's just made the point that Leave won this vote in the North and Midlands and that this win was based on the fact that those communities had been 'left behind' (not a direct quote).
> 
> Of course I don't believe he gives a shit for people in those communities but he at least has enough nous to recognise the massive anger, fear, worry and pain that so many people in Britain feel. What does it say about liberals like krtek a houby  that they can't see that.


Of course he knows that. Hes brilliant at exploiting and scapegoating hardship.
 We know what he really wants to happen nextthough: Film shows Nigel Farage calling for move away from state-funded NHS


----------



## seventh bullet (Jun 24, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> Don't blame you. Elements of the left and right have had intercourse and produced today's bastard of a result.
> 
> Little England.



Jesus.  Why are you deliberately and dishonestly misrepresenting people's positions?  I get this bit though, in the next post you'll protest and play victim ,right?


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jun 24, 2016)

> Who are you going to blame for everything now, Leave? It’s all on you now. Everything that happens now is YOUR responsibility.


Lol!


----------



## seventh bullet (Jun 24, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> Ironic, given your moniker.



Evil Communist.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 24, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> Please read what I said, I haven't attacked you on this thread. Nor have I sided with Farage, I've simply pointed out that your 'class doesn't exist' nonsense is a major part of the reason why Leave won, because class is real and it is part of the reason why so many decided to vote Leave.



All the leavers I spoke to over the last few months didn't mention class. They all, without exception, mentioned "immigration" and "Eastern Europeans".

Yes; that's my experience, my anecdotage but I'm not making it up.


----------



## Biscuitician (Jun 24, 2016)

Plumdaff said:


> Don't worry everyone, several Lexiters on my Facebook have declared for a general strike!


Aside from it never actually happening, what's the problem with that? If it prevents that wiff waff arsehole Boris from taking power I'm up for it!


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 24, 2016)

ska invita said:


> Of course he knows that. Hes brilliant at exploiting and scapegoating hardship.
> We know what he really wants to happen nextthough: Film shows Nigel Farage calling for move away from state-funded NHS


Of course, I have absolutely no doubt where Farage is coming from but _and this is the key_ he at least pretends to acknowledge these issues exists, liberals like krtek won't even do that. 

(And that means that krtek and co are every bit as much my opponents as Farage and UKIP)


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 24, 2016)

seventh bullet said:


> Jesus.  Why are you deliberately and dishonestly misrepresenting people's positions?  I get this bit though, in the next post you'll protest and play victim ,right?



LOL._ I'm_ misrepresenting people's positions?

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

Have you just seen what's happened to your country?

Fucking little englanders. Right or left.


----------



## seventh bullet (Jun 24, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> Sentiment not a million miles away from the "if you don't like it; fuck off out of our country" shit.
> 
> Little England.



Nope.


----------



## seventh bullet (Jun 24, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> LOL._ I'm_ misrepresenting people's positions?
> 
> HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
> 
> ...



Thick Trumpish racist proles being all thick and racist and proley.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 24, 2016)

seventh bullet said:


> Nope.



Yep. UKIP-lite.


----------



## Biscuitician (Jun 24, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Gideon's finished, so maybe we can now have someone who doesn't need his fingers and toes to count and things may get better for the old dears?


 yes, I can just picture all those decent numerate compassionate Chancellor's in waiting... in the _Tory_ party!


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 24, 2016)

seventh bullet said:


> Thick Trumpish racist proles being all thick and racist and proley.



UKIP lite trying to play the class card.

Little England.


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Jun 24, 2016)

I bet the establishment are now regretting  giving that nicotine stained fuckwit far more coverage than any other MEP in British history.


----------



## seventh bullet (Jun 24, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> UKIP lite trying to play the class card.
> 
> Little England.



UKIP lite?  I didn't vote.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 24, 2016)

seventh bullet said:


> Evil Communist.



Little Englander.


----------



## Libertad (Jun 24, 2016)

ska invita said:


> out of interest what are we striking for? what are our demands?



We demand everything.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 24, 2016)

seventh bullet said:


> UKIP lite?  I didn't vote.



Even better.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 24, 2016)

mauvais said:


> She's right though. In the proud history of the market, share price collapse is about half an inch away from 'restructuring' and job losses, not that there were any jobs in the conventional sense to begin with.




She's right in so far as capital uses downturns to make more money by taking more from the poorest. These past years of austerity have been down to the banking crisis which has seen the rich get richer than they have ever been. Their narrative is we must protect the markets, the reality is that it is only in the proles' interests as long as they allow that narrative to rule.


----------



## seventh bullet (Jun 24, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> Little Englander.



I didn't vote.  Want to come and rescue my non-white immigrant partner from me?  

This is all you have.  No class analysis, just slurs and insults.  And playing the victim.


----------



## Wilhelmina.Trav (Jun 24, 2016)

Got my lil 7 year old watching this n asking questions. Our kids are going to be affected by this so I don't want her ignorant. The equizitive the better.

Am still in a atate of shock n like "what the FUCK have we done????" I
Hate how they say "England n Wales have spoken" like we're all in agreement because I am Welsh n no way did I want this.

We don'r have just ourselves to think of we have our children n our choices today affect n shape their future. I am both excited yet worried.

Evey


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jun 24, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> LOL._ I'm_ misrepresenting people's positions?
> 
> HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
> 
> ...


Understand you've had a shock mate, but your posts this morning really are the epitome of "Love democracy, hate when people don't vote the same as me, sensibly etc".


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 24, 2016)

Mrs Miggins said:


> ...and it's a long long way fro the shitty UK



And would it not be shitty if it had voted to stay in the EU?


----------



## mauvais (Jun 24, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> She's right in so far as capital uses downturns to make more money by taking more from the poorest. These past years of austerity have been down to the banking crisis which has seen the rich get richer than they have ever been. Their narrative is we must protect the markets, the reality is that it is only in the proles' interests as long as they allow that narrative to rule.


Well my pension provider just rang to ask if I want to transfer my portfolio into a wheelbarrow, whatever that is, so any narrative will do at this point.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 24, 2016)

And lets not have any doubt about it as long as voices like krtek's persist in _progressive_ circles, working class people in England and Wales are only going keep moving to UKIP


----------



## Kesher (Jun 24, 2016)

ska invita said:


> What colour Friday is it going to be today?



GREY and BEIGE with a hint of magnolia

I can't believe it: the end of my EU passport. Farage's face: he's on a massive high. What a horrible feeling. Just seen a Leave campaigner on BBC bursting with Joy saying he feels like he's had a baby; more like a bereavement for me.


----------



## Cid (Jun 24, 2016)

Wilhelmina.Trav said:


> Got my lil 7 year old watching this n asking questions. Our kids are going to be affected by this so I don't want her ignorant. The equizitive the better.
> 
> Am still in a atate of shock n like "what the FUCK have we done????" I
> Hate how they say "England n Wales have spoken" like we're all in agreement bevause I am Welsh n no way did I want thus.
> ...



Leave vote won in Wales.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 24, 2016)

seventh bullet said:


> I didn't vote.  Want to come and rescue my non-white immigrant partner from me?
> 
> This is all you have.  No class analysis, just slurs and insults.  And playing the victim.



I voted. My Japanese wife got citizenship so she could vote; it was that important.

And go fuck yourself with your "non white" bullshit. WTF; is everthing secondary to being white?

Fucking racist loon.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 24, 2016)

mauvais said:


> Well my pension provider just rang to ask if I want to transfer my portfolio into a wheelbarrow, whatever that is, so any narrative will do at this point.




You have a pension?

Mug.

They've been dead for donks, ask any banker what you should do to provide for old age, pensions are not going to be in their list.


----------



## mk12 (Jun 24, 2016)

Aimed at krtek a houby


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 24, 2016)

S☼I said:


> Understand you've had a shock mate, but your posts this morning really are the epitome of "Love democracy, hate when people don't vote the same as me, sensibly etc".



Sensibly? Hey, I used to vote Labour. Am just shocked at how low this country has sank.

And am glad to be leaving.


----------



## seventh bullet (Jun 24, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> I voted. My Japanese wife got citizenship so she could vote; it was that important.
> 
> And go fuck yourself with your "non white" bullshit. WTF; is everthing secondary to being white?
> 
> Fucking racist loon.



This is totally out of fucking order.  Really, it is.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 24, 2016)

mauvais said:


> Well my pension provider just rang to ask if I want to transfer my portfolio into a wheelbarrow, whatever that is, so any narrative will do at this point.



Besides I'm not sure if your pensions provider did really call you befor 8am to discuss the implications of Brexit on your pension. Are you telling porkies to make a point?


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 24, 2016)

mk12 said:


> Aimed at krtek a houby



How brave of you, person I don't know


----------



## Wilhelmina.Trav (Jun 24, 2016)

Awh why are we arguing? Nowt wrong in friendly debate but turning on each other won't help matters as the old quote goes "united we stand divided we fall"

Evey


----------



## bi0boy (Jun 24, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> Sensibly? Hey, I used to vote Labour. Am just shocked at how low this country has sank.
> 
> And am glad to be leaving.



Who are you going to vote for in Japan?


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jun 24, 2016)

> So people sided with a man who murdered a lovely lady just because she had different views.


Lol, nope


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Jun 24, 2016)

Surely they'll just fuck it off won't they? They fucked off Ireland when they voted no, when Sweden voted no to the euro and when Greece voted no to the bailout so I'm not even convinced the establishment will allow it. It's just an advisory referendum after all.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 24, 2016)

seventh bullet said:


> This is totally out of fucking order.  Really, it is.



No, what's out of order is racist bs like "non white".

Little Englander.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 24, 2016)

seventh bullet said:


> This is totally out of fucking order.  Really, it is.



He has a point about referring to people as non-white... I am not non-White for example, I have my own skin colour and ethnicity...if you want to characterise people by their skin colour, name it...if not their ethnicity.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 24, 2016)

seventh bullet said:


> This is totally out of fucking order.  Really, it is.


It is.
I know he's going to take this as an attack on him but I really think you should log off krtek a houby and go for a walk, you are clearly upset and not helping yourself or anyone else by posting this shit.


----------



## mauvais (Jun 24, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Besides I'm not sure if your pensions provider did really call you befor 8am to discuss the implications of Brexit on your pension. Are you telling porkies to make a point?


Joke - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 24, 2016)

bi0boy said:


> Who are you going to vote for in Japan?



Respectfully, what's that got to do with today's result?


----------



## inva (Jun 24, 2016)

I hope whatever side we were all on in the vote that we can at least enjoy the fact that Cameron, Osborne, the IMF, that lib dem weirdo who's name I can't remember, PricewaterhouseCoopers and Bono were all on the losing side


----------



## seventh bullet (Jun 24, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> How brave of you, person I don't know



No, you can fucking well qualify that accusation.  Not just throw around something like that and act the sniveling coward.  Qualify it without trying to make out you're the 'victim.'


----------



## Reiabuzz (Jun 24, 2016)

S☼I said:


> Understand you've had a shock mate, but your posts this morning really are the epitome of "Love democracy, hate when people don't vote the same as me, sensibly etc".



I think he's voicing disappointment that the bigots crawled out of the woodwork last night in a country that he loved and I guess nobody knew just how many were here. At least it's a good litmus test of how fucked up this country is and those with options are already looking at how the fuck we can get out of here. 

You voted for NIGEL FARAGE. What's wrong with you. Seriously.


----------



## Plumdaff (Jun 24, 2016)

Biscuitician said:


> Aside from it never actually happening, what's the problem with that? If it prevents that wiff waff arsehole Boris from taking power I'm up for it!



My main objection is it's same old tired fantasy land bullshit. Merrily wasting people's time.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 24, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> It is.
> I know he's going to take this as an attack on him but I really think you should log off krtek a houby and go for a walk, he's clearly upset and not helping himself or anyone else by posting this shit.



Oh yeah; I should log off because I'm calling out racist bullshit for what it is.

"Non white".

Go fuck yourself. Racist wankers.


----------



## bi0boy (Jun 24, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> Respectfully, what's that got to do with today's result?



You seemed to indicate you'd have better options politically over there.


----------



## seventh bullet (Jun 24, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> He has a point about referring to people as non-white... I am not non-White for example, I have my own skin colour and ethnicity...if you want to characterise people by their skin colour, name it...if not their ethnicity.



No, he's making out I am a racist.  My partner has referred to herself as such in talk such as this.


----------



## ska invita (Jun 24, 2016)

Curious to see if the EU punishes the UK and makes the leave as painful as possible in order to scare off other countries from leaving.
Good chance of that Id expect.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 24, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> No, what's out of order is racist bs like "non white".
> 
> Little Englander.



I agree with your point about using the term 'non-White'...I think you are taking a massive leap though... Calling people racist when they haven't been isn't on.


----------



## Skyfallsz (Jun 24, 2016)

Total failure on the part of the EU and UK government that it came to this. Scotland and N.Ireland will want to join the EU, EU takes a big blow. 
I can understand that people want to say 'fuck you' to the political class etc, but it's just going to cause shit for lots of people and I've yet to hear of any alternative or even sensible plan from the Leave side. 

I'm pretty shocked, I didn't think that they'd actually win, seems like it's going to cause a lot of trouble for no reason


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 24, 2016)

bi0boy said:


> You seemed to indicate you'd have better options politically over there.



I just want to get away from this racist shit little england.

I'll miss the UK, mind. But this isn't the UK anymore.

The right has seduced elements of the left and fucked this country.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 24, 2016)

seventh bullet said:


> No, he's making out I am a racist.  My partner has referred to herself as such in talk such as this.



He has called you on using the term non-white. I don't think it makes you a racist fwiw...I still think it's a negative/derogatory. I don't agree with your partner, but then you know because not everyone thinks the same.


----------



## seventh bullet (Jun 24, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> Oh yeah; I should log off because I'm calling out racist bullshit for what it is.
> 
> "Non white".
> 
> Go fuck yourself. Racist wankers.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 24, 2016)

What shit for what loads of people?


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 24, 2016)

EDIT. posted rubbish thinking Rutita1 was making an argument that she wasn't


----------



## bi0boy (Jun 24, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> I just want to get away from this racist shit little england.



Japan isn't too racist if you're white I suppose.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 24, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> I agree with your point about using the term 'non-White'...I think you are taking a massive leap though... Calling people racist when they haven't been isn't on.



Sorry Ru but I fecking hate that term "non white".

At the very least, it's ignorant.

Anyway, I have to lie down and relax now. Am hurting real bad - and I know I'm not the only one who feels let down and betrayed.


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Jun 24, 2016)

ska invita said:


> Curious to see if the EU punishes the UK and makes the leave as painful as possible in order to scare off other countries from leaving.
> Good chance of that Id expect.


I have little doubt this will happen.


----------



## ska invita (Jun 24, 2016)

Corbyn looked happy with the result in that interview just now.


----------



## rubbershoes (Jun 24, 2016)

Scotland will have another referendum and leave the UK. The Tories will find it much easier to maintain a Westminster majority. 

Those on the left who voted out yesterday may find the future isn't what they hoped it would be


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 24, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> I just want to get away from this racist shit little england.
> 
> I'll miss the UK, mind. But this isn't the UK anymore.
> 
> The right has seduced elements of the left and fucked this country.



Mate I can see you are upset but CALM DOWN! This isn't helping.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 24, 2016)

seventh bullet said:


>




Ah yes, I've been told to kill myself before. Oddly, the suggestion came from right wing racists. But sure; do your bit.


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Jun 24, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> I just want to get away from this racist shit little england.
> 
> I'll miss the UK, mind. But this isn't the UK anymore.
> 
> The right has seduced elements of the left and fucked this country.


Go and have a lie down mate. You're not doing yourself or anyone any favours at the moment.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 24, 2016)

bi0boy said:


> Japan isn't too racist if you're white I suppose.



Ever been there?


----------



## seventh bullet (Jun 24, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> No, he has called you on using the term non-white. I don't think it makes you a racist fwiw...I still think it's a negative.



He has been making out I am a racist, and before that post.  I understand fully the point you make and agree.  I offer my apologies if that has caused offence.  

krtek, though, can go to Hell.


----------



## seventh bullet (Jun 24, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> Ever been there?



An ex is from there.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 24, 2016)

seventh bullet said:


> An ex is from there.



What, a "non white"? And your point?


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 24, 2016)

seventh bullet said:


> He has been making out I am a racist, and before that post.  I understand fully the point you make and agree.  I offer my apologies if that has caused offence.
> 
> krtek, though, can go to Hell.



Which hell, mind? Non white hell or regular white hell?


----------



## seventh bullet (Jun 24, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> What, a "non white"? And your point?



End it mate.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 24, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> What, a "non white"? And your point?


STOP it. He has taken the point on board. There is no argument there.


----------



## jusali (Jun 24, 2016)

divided we fall


----------



## seventh bullet (Jun 24, 2016)

Remember krtek, down the road, not across the street.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 24, 2016)

Doctor Carrot said:


> Go and have a lie down mate. You're not doing yourself or anyone any favours at the moment.



I'm not here to do anyone favours, doc.

EG: something really upsetting happens - where do you go to talk about it?

URBAN75. Seriously; where else is there?


----------



## mauvais (Jun 24, 2016)

seventh bullet said:


> Remember krtek, down the road, not across the street.


Really?

You're a fucking disgrace.


----------



## bi0boy (Jun 24, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> Ever been there?



Yes, it's a great place. But claiming it is some bastion of liberal internationalism compared to the UK post-Brexit is stretching things a bit.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 24, 2016)

seventh bullet said:


> End it mate.



Like kill myself, you mean?

Gonna have to try harder than a youtube link, Little Englander.


----------



## Glitter (Jun 24, 2016)

In the run up to this I've seen a couple of people, here and elsewhere, say they had solid left wing reasons for voting leave?

Could anybody tell me what they are please? I could do with some cheering up.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 24, 2016)

seventh bullet said:


> Remember krtek, down the road, not across the street.


Telling him to kill himself isn't covering you in glory either.


----------



## seventh bullet (Jun 24, 2016)

mauvais said:


> Really?
> 
> You're a fucking disgrace.



I am a racist, for how many pages...  My loving relationship with my partner is called into question.  Fuck off.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 24, 2016)

bi0boy said:


> Yes, it's a great place. But claiming it is some bastion of liberal internationalism compared to the UK post-Brexit is stretching things a bit.



Hmm. Where did I claim that, exactly???


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 24, 2016)

Perhaps a mutual ignore?


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Jun 24, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> I'm not here to do anyone favours, doc.
> 
> EG: something really upsetting happens - where do you go to talk about it?
> 
> URBAN75. Seriously; where else is there?


Yeah and that's well and good just think you should wind it in with all the thick and racist stuff as that's part of the reason this result has come about in the first place.


----------



## elbows (Jun 24, 2016)

This would never have happened if Cameron didn't believe that lol stood for leavers only lose.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 24, 2016)

Doctor Carrot said:


> Yeah and that's well and good just think you should wind it in with all the thick and racist stuff as that's part of the reason this result has come about in the first place.



Where did I say "thick"???


----------



## xenon (Jun 24, 2016)

mauvais said:


> She's right though. In the proud history of the market, share price collapse is about half an inch away from 'restructuring' and job losses, not that there were any jobs in the conventional sense to begin with.



The Market shits itself if someone so much as sneezes in the wrong direction. Has the UK work force, those from the rest of the world working here included, suddenly become useless. Does no one have the means or desire to buy anything from now on.


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Jun 24, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> Where did I say "thick"???


Yeah OK you didn't say the word but that's the attitude you're giving off.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 24, 2016)

seventh bullet said:


> I am a racist, for how many pages...  My loving relationship with my partner is called into question.  Fuck off.



You used the term "non white". Speaks volumes that does.

And because I've called you out on that - you've posted that I should kill myself...

Brave, brave man.


----------



## seventh bullet (Jun 24, 2016)

Nah, this shit is _personal_ now.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 24, 2016)

Doctor Carrot said:


> Yeah OK you didn't say the word but that's the attitude you're giving off.



No, fuck off. I'm thick. But I admit to it. But I know what's right and what's not.

Don't be putting words in my mouth, though. You're an intelligent person. You are better than that.


----------



## elbows (Jun 24, 2016)

No, this shit is tedious now.


----------



## emanymton (Jun 24, 2016)

I'm fucked of with all this nonscence about a leave vote being a racist vote. As far as I may concerned voting to remain was more racist. The idea that the EU is somehow pro-imigrant and anti-racist is so ridiculous it's almost funny. This would be the same EU that did nothing to stop France blocking the UK aid convey from entering. The EU that is mostly in favor of allowing the free movement of (mainly white)  Europeans. But is bitterly opposed to allow brown people into the EU, and will happily leave them to drown in the Mediterranean.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 24, 2016)

seventh bullet said:


> Nah, this shit is _personal_ now.



You are so fucking right. 

Get's called out on racist terminology.

Not brave enough to make death threat.

Tells poster to kill himself, instead.

Brave little man.


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Jun 24, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> No, fuck off. I'm thick. But I admit to it. But I know what's right and what's not.
> 
> Don't be putting words in my mouth, though. You're an intelligent person. You are better than that.


Alright carry on.


----------



## hash tag (Jun 24, 2016)

Cameron speaking now, doing best to pour oil on troubled waters. Sad day.


----------



## mauvais (Jun 24, 2016)

xenon said:


> The Market shits itself if someone so much as sneezes in the wrong direction. Has the UK work force, those from the rest of the world working here included, suddenly become useless.


Completely useless, but nothing sudden about it.

Over a very long time, the nation put all its stock in services, primarily financial ones, and then decided to massively destabilise capital. So it shouldn't come as a fucking great surprise that it has a negative outcome for everyone.


----------



## elbows (Jun 24, 2016)

> BBC Political Editor Laura Kuenssberg says the rumour is that David Cameron is to resign, although this is not confirmed.


----------



## seventh bullet (Jun 24, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> You are so fucking right.
> 
> Get's called out on racist terminology.
> 
> ...



No, you have been accusing me of being a racist pretty much from the beginning.  Sniveling little cunt.


----------



## elbows (Jun 24, 2016)

If Cameron had attempted to hold his piss in for the entire campaign, we may have been treated to a very different spectacle.


----------



## hash tag (Jun 24, 2016)

New pm by October then.


----------



## Plumdaff (Jun 24, 2016)

Cameron's off soon then...


----------



## Ted Striker (Jun 24, 2016)

Camerons gone!


----------



## Plumdaff (Jun 24, 2016)

Hasn't Cameron just condemned us to three months of complete limbo?


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 24, 2016)

seventh bullet said:


> No, you have been accusing me of being a racist pretty much from the beginning.  Sniveling little cunt.



You dumb fuck. You used the term "non white". 

I rightly called you out on it & you told me to kill myself.

I've cornered you, you brave little man & you call me a snivelling cunt?

LOL


----------



## comrade spurski (Jun 24, 2016)

The problem is that the debate has been dominated about immigration. 

My daughters are worried about some of their school friends being kicked out of the country. 

I am concerned about the racist nutters who will hijack this result and use it to justify their hate. Not just organised groups but fucked up individuals who accuse people like me of being foreigners ( even though I was born here 50 years ago), of poncing their benefits (even though I have have worked since the age of 18), of being anti white (even though my partner is white) of stealing their jobs (even though I do a job they'd never do for the pay).

I would as a TA in a special needs school with violent and aggressive kids who are badly damaged by life. I get £250 per week take home and a shit pension for being physically and verbally abused everyday ( I currently have a broken arm from work and am still going in each day) yet have no idea if I will still have a job in a few months because of what may happen.

My eldest daughter has gone to do an A Level this morning in tears cos of her fears for her friends.

I ain't a middle class twat, I ain't superior ... but I am worried and gutted.

Have no idea what to say to my kids. ..seriously...any kind ideas would be helpful.

And the dick wavers on this thread (on both sides) should wind their necks in and show some respect


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Jun 24, 2016)

Yay! Cock off Cameron you useless spunk bubble


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 24, 2016)

Leaving for his successor to take the decision about Article 50


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Jun 24, 2016)

Fuck. Just woke up. It's not the vote, it's the panic that's getting to me. CORBYN OUT POUND PLUMMETS....


----------



## Espresso (Jun 24, 2016)

A general election shortly then. Boris Johnson will be the Prime Minister, Trump will become the President and we might as well all turn our faces to the  wall.


----------



## xenon (Jun 24, 2016)

Reiabuzz said:


> I think he's voicing disappointment that the bigots crawled out of the woodwork last night in a country that he loved and I guess nobody knew just how many were here. At least it's a good litmus test of how fucked up this country is and those with options are already looking at how the fuck we can get out of here.
> 
> You voted for NIGEL FARAGE. What's wrong with you. Seriously.



Does this have to be said again. If the likes of SI voted Farage, the remainers voted for David Cameron and the IMF.


----------



## Santino (Jun 24, 2016)

Jeremy Corbyn claims another scalp.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Jun 24, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> Leaving for his successor to take the decision about Article 50


:-/


----------



## jakejb79 (Jun 24, 2016)

David Cameron has resigned


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 24, 2016)

Doctor Carrot said:


> Yay! Cock off Cameron you useless spunk bubble



Kudos to same sex marriage, mind.

Piggy is off but what's the alternative?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 24, 2016)

Hurra hurra we bring the jubilee
Hurra hurra the vote that sets you free
Cameron's gone and Osborne soon
As you will surely see
While we were leaving the EU


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 24, 2016)

Glitter said:


> In the run up to this I've seen a couple of people, here and elsewhere, say they had solid left wing reasons for voting leave?
> 
> Could anybody tell me what they are please? I could do with some cheering up.



There is a decent thread on it 'Leavers on the Left'.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 24, 2016)

diamarzipan said:


> :-/


Article 50 is the start of the official process for exiting the EU, giving a maximum negotiating period of two years.

Exactly when to trigger it is going to be an important issue for the PM (even if not for most of the people in Britain)


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 24, 2016)

Espresso said:


> A general election shortly then. Boris Johnson will be the Prime Minister, Trump will become the President and we might as well all turn our faces to the  wall.




Do you still not get it? Look at the bottom of the screen on BBC whilst pig-fucker announces his departure, look at the areas voting out. Then look at who is voting for Trump. Ask yourself why.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 24, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> Article 50 is the start of the official process for exiting the EU, giving a maximum negotiating period of two years.


Yeh *that's* been kept quiet


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 24, 2016)

Espresso said:


> A general election shortly then. Boris Johnson will be the Prime Minister, Trump will become the President and we might as well all turn our faces to the  wall.


Then you'll get shot in the back


----------



## xenon (Jun 24, 2016)

Glitter said:


> In the run up to this I've seen a couple of people, here and elsewhere, say they had solid left wing reasons for voting leave?
> 
> Could anybody tell me what they are please? I could do with some cheering up.



There's about 320 pages talking about that. Does no one read new posts any more.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 24, 2016)

Radio X just played Roses, Beautiful Thing to pig-fucker's departure


----------



## mauvais (Jun 24, 2016)

emanymton said:


> and will happily leave them to drown in the Mediterranean.


And leaving southern European countries to deal with asylum entirely on their own would be somehow better? The idealist logic of the Brexiteer, unhindered by reality.


----------



## mk12 (Jun 24, 2016)

> To every EU national in the UK who feels unwelcome today. I want you here. I am grateful for you. I am sorry.  #EUref



I just sicked in my mouth.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 24, 2016)

On the positive side, no work will be done today


----------



## seventh bullet (Jun 24, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> You dumb fuck. You used the term "non white".
> 
> I rightly called you out on it & you told me to kill myself.
> 
> ...



Nope.  The term has been used by my partner in talking about things such as this, immigration etc, in more narrower terms of officialdom.  I genuinely didn't see it as a problem when using it here.  You've seized on me using it as evidence that I am a racist, but you weren't even aware that I was in such a relationship when you started making out that I am a racist.  I fully agree with Rutita1's point and see it in a different way.  You are a sniveling little cunt, sure.  Enjoy the victory.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 24, 2016)

mauvais said:


> And leaving southern European countries to deal with asylum entirely on their own would be somehow better? The idealist logic of the Brexiteer, unhindered by reality.


What would have been better yet would have been for this country not to play a part in fucking over Libya in the first place


----------



## mauvais (Jun 24, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> What would have been better yet would have been for this country not to play a part in fucking over Libya in the first place


Well yeah. So you get the time machine fired up and I'll make us a cuppa.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Jun 24, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> Article 50 is the start of the official process for exiting the EU, giving a maximum negotiating period of two years.
> 
> Exactly when to trigger it is going to be an important issue for the PM (even if not for most of the people in Britain)


Haha i know that, I'm just worried about this is going to unfold.


----------



## Biscuitician (Jun 24, 2016)

Plumdaff said:


> My main objection is it's same old tired fantasy land bullshit. Merrily wasting people's time.


well if ever there was a time we need to get shit together it's now, because if Boris becomes PM (assuming that's a given - who else has put their hat into the ring?) then we're fucked.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 24, 2016)

diamarzipan said:


> Haha i know that, I'm just worried about this is going to unfold.


Ah, sorry I thought that was a confused face.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 24, 2016)

seventh bullet said:


> Nope.  The term has been used by my partner in talking about things such as this, immigration etc, in more narrower terms of officialdom.  I genuinely didn't see it as a problem when using it here.  You've seized on me using it as evidence that I am a racist, but you weren't even aware that I was in such a relationship when you started making out that I am a racist.  I fully agree with Rutita1's point and see it in a different way.  You are a sniveling little cunt, sure.  Enjoy the victory.



Anyone who uses that term is an ignorant little prat, at the very least.

And telling me to kill myself because your ignorance has been hilighted is weak.

Do it again. Be brave and say it out loud - TELL ME TO KILL MYSELF AGAIN. No weasel words.

Seventh "bullet". Weak little macho man.


----------



## elbows (Jun 24, 2016)

Espresso said:


> A general election shortly then. Boris Johnson will be the Prime Minister, Trump will become the President and we might as well all turn our faces to the  wall.



Right now they aren't planning a general election, just for the tories to announce a new leader at their conference in October.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 24, 2016)

mauvais said:


> Well yeah. So you get the time machine fired up and I'll make us a cuppa.


Yeh so we can go forward two years I suppose


----------



## seventh bullet (Jun 24, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> Anyone who uses that term is an ignorant little prat, at the very least.
> 
> And telling me to kill myself because your ignorance has been hilighted is weak.
> 
> ...



You started making out that I am a racist before you even knew about my personal life.  Cunt.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 24, 2016)

elbows said:


> Right now they aren't planning a general election, just for the tories to announce a new leader at their conference in October.


It's a bit early in the day to be planning a general election


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 24, 2016)

seventh bullet said:


> waaaaaaa waaaa waaaa .





What a fucking surprise.


----------



## Skyfallsz (Jun 24, 2016)

emanymton said:


> I'm fucked of with all this nonscence about a leave vote being a racist vote. As far as I may concerned voting to remain was more racist. The idea that the EU is somehow pro-imigrant and anti-racist is so ridiculous it's almost funny. This would be the same EU that did nothing to stop France blocking the UK aid convey from entering. The EU that is mostly in favor of allowing the free movement of (mainly white)  Europeans. But is bitterly opposed to allow brown people into the EU, and will happily leave them to drown in the Mediterranean.



This is a total fallacy, there is massive legal immigration to Europe. Western Europe is one of the most racially mixed parts of the world, mostly legal with hundreds of thousands of people legally arriving and many of them staying for good
The illegal immigration and the massive refugee/people smuggling crisis in the Med is a failure of the EU, but the main reason that it is such a disaster is because there are literally millions of people trying to get in by washing up on a beach, not because Europe doesn't like brown people


----------



## xenon (Jun 24, 2016)

mauvais said:


> Completely useless, but nothing sudden about it.
> 
> Over a very long time, the nation put all its stock in services, primarily financial ones, and then decided to massively destabilise capital. So it shouldn't come as a fucking great surprise that it has a negative outcome for everyone.



Well quite. Don't do anything, it upsets the market. Such upsets concommant with the UK's EU membership. Now with out. Why bother with the whole politics thing when a junter of economists should just be left to it.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 24, 2016)

seventh bullet said:


> You started making out that I am a racist before you even knew about my personal life.  Cunt.



Anyone who uses the term "non white" doesn't have a life, let alone a personal one.

Come on, make a veiled threat again; I dare you.

Little Englander.


----------



## elbows (Jun 24, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> View attachment 88815
> 
> What a fucking surprise.



Last time I checked the referendum question wasn't about you and the people who routinely fall out with you on this forum. So why don't you let people discuss the main subject and quit this pathetic sideshow?


----------



## seventh bullet (Jun 24, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> Anyone who uses the term "non white" doesn't have a life, let alone a personal one.
> 
> Come on, make a veiled threat again; I dare you.
> 
> Little Englander.



Sure.


----------



## SE25 (Jun 24, 2016)

I'll miss Scotland


----------



## Dr. Furface (Jun 24, 2016)

This vote is nothing more than political football hooliganism, the angry and dispossessed giving Europe a good kicking. And it will serve to confirm what many Europeans already think of us - we're just a bunch of mindless yobs.


----------



## inva (Jun 24, 2016)

Dr. Furface said:


> This vote is nothing more than political football hooliganism, the angry and dispossessed giving Europe a good kicking. And it will serve to confirm what many Europeans already think of us - we're just a bunch of mindless yobs.


lol


----------



## andysays (Jun 24, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> Anyone who uses that term is an ignorant little prat, at the very least...



So what you're saying is that seventh bullet's partner, who he has repeatedly said he was referring to using the term she refers to herself by, is "an ignorant little prat, at the very least", because she dares to use a term you happen to disapprove of.

You're not exactly covering yourself in glory here...


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 24, 2016)

seventh bullet said:


> Sure.



Just what I thought. Cowardly white little englander. Post another youtube link, brave lad. Pickman might lick your knob cheese off for you again.
Me; I'm a bit more choosy. I'd rather rim fascist Nigel, at least he speaks his mind.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 24, 2016)

andysays said:


> So what you're saying is that seventh bullet's partner, who he has repeatedly said he was referring to using the term she refers to herself by, is "an ignorant little prat, at the very least", because she dares to use a term you happen to disapprove of.
> 
> You're not exactly covering yourself in glory here...



Fuck off white boy.


----------



## Plumdaff (Jun 24, 2016)

Mandelson blaming it on Corbyn.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jun 24, 2016)

"I felt a great disturbance on Facebook - as though millions of Guardian readers cried out "Now WE have a Tory Government too?" at once.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Jun 24, 2016)

Scotland's gonna be joining the Eurozone then. What could possibly go wrong?


----------



## Falcon (Jun 24, 2016)

The delightful Beatrix von Storch, head of 'Alternative für Deutschland’, has congratulated Brexit supporters, claiming it represents a mandate for European anti-immigration parties everywhere.

You’ll recall she advocates shooting immigrant women and children at Germany’s borders.

If you listen closely, you can hear the sound of a Genie leaving a bottle.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jun 24, 2016)

Honestly, the ignorance of plenty Remainers is staggering.
It's like suddenly, because they directly might be affected by this they start banging on about unfair Tory policies and damage to working people etc as if this hasn't been happening for 30 fucking years


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 24, 2016)

Plumdaff said:


> Mandelson blaming it on Corbyn.



No suprise there, then. Why do they even give those Blairite bastards airtime anymore?


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 24, 2016)

S☼I said:


> Honestly, the ignorance of plenty Remainers is staggering.
> It's like suddenly, because they directly might be affected by this they start banging on about unfair Tory policies and damage to working people etc as if this hasn't been happening for 30 fucking years



Well, you've got what you want now. Stop fucking crowing.


----------



## hot air baboon (Jun 24, 2016)

Falcon said:


> You’ll recall she advocates shooting immigrant women and children at Germany’s borders.



that was Frauke Petry


----------



## teqniq (Jun 24, 2016)

mauvais said:


> And leaving southern European countries to deal with asylum entirely on their own would be somehow better? The idealist logic of the Brexiteer, unhindered by reality.


The reality is that MSF an organisation with actual principles is no longer accepting money from the EU 'in protest against the “shameful response” to the refugee crisis.'


----------



## seventh bullet (Jun 24, 2016)

andysays said:


> So what you're saying is that seventh bullet's partner, who he has repeatedly said he was referring to using the term she refers to herself by, is "an ignorant little prat, at the very least", because she dares to use a term you happen to disapprove of.
> 
> You're not exactly covering yourself in glory here...



She has used the term with regard to immigration, but as a general self-designation?  Asian...  I can see now Rutita1 's point and she has explained to me via PM what she saw in my post and use of the term (my intentions and ignorance).   I think she could put it better than me here on this thread if she so chooses.

krtek a houby, though,  just wants to shout RACIST, so <shrugs> let him.


----------



## Skyfallsz (Jun 24, 2016)

S☼I said:


> Honestly, the ignorance of plenty Remainers is staggering.
> It's like suddenly, because they directly might be affected by this they start banging on about unfair Tory policies and damage to working people etc as if this hasn't been happening for 30 fucking years



Or maybe a lot of people were against that as well but also see the possible breakup of the EU and UK as a bad thing


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jun 24, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> Well, you've got what you want now. Stop fucking crowing.


This is very, very far from what I want. Why can't you understand that?


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 24, 2016)

seventh bullet said:


> She has used the term with regard to immigration, but as a general self-designation?  Asian...  I can see now Rutita1 's point and she has explained to me via PM what she saw in my post and use of the term (my intentions and ignorance).   I think she could put it better than me here on this thread if she so chooses.
> 
> krtek a houby, though,  just wants to shout RACIST, so <shrugs> let him.



You hurting real bad, bro?

Maybe you should tell other posters to kill themselves, will that help?

UKIP collaborator.


----------



## weltweit (Jun 24, 2016)

Well I am disappointed, my side lost the vote.

My feeling is that immigration was the key issue causing most leave voting.

Slightly worried for all the EU nationals I know who live here.


----------



## mauvais (Jun 24, 2016)

teqniq said:


> The reality is that MSF an organisation with actual principles is no longer accepting money from the EU 'in protest against the “shameful response” to the refugee crisis.'


I know. And yet missing the point completely. What's a collapse or dismantling going to do for those people? That's reality, which begins with how bad things currently are.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 24, 2016)

S☼I said:


> This is very, very far from what I want. Why can't you understand that?


 
Oh, because I'm stupid. Haven't you heard?

All of us who voted remain, who wanted to keep this country out of isolation are....


----------



## Dogsauce (Jun 24, 2016)

Port Talbot rescue deal has been canned apparently.

Think my P45 will be a few months off at best, and girlfriend has just left a job on the promise of a new one. She works in housing, quite likely she won't be getting an offer now.  Fucked it.


----------



## SovietArmy (Jun 24, 2016)

No idea what can be in future for me.   I am not English national.  I strongly believed in EU.


----------



## seventh bullet (Jun 24, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> You hurting real bad, bro?
> 
> Maybe you should tell other posters to kill themselves, will that help?
> 
> UKIP collaborator.



How could I have collaborated with UKIP (what an absurd and frankly laughable way to describe the varied reasons people had for deciding to vote leave) when I didn't even visit my designated polling station?


----------



## teqniq (Jun 24, 2016)

mauvais said:


> I know. And yet missing the point completely. What's a collapse or dismantling going to do for those people? That's reality, which begins with how bad things currently are.


Thing were not brilliant to start out with and here I refer in part to the totally unprincipled, shabby deal that the EU did with Turkey which hopefully looks like falling apart anyway.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 24, 2016)

seventh bullet said:


> How could I have collaborated with UKIP (what an absurd and frankly laughable way to describe the varied reasons people had for deciding to vote leave) when I didn't even visit my designated polling station?



Suck my Irish ass. You come on here and you didn't even vote? FFS.


----------



## weltweit (Jun 24, 2016)

SovietArmy said:


> No idea what can be in future for me.   I am not English national.  I strongly believed in EU.


My ex wife and many of our friends are not English nationals.
I don't think there should be too much to worry about in the short to mid term though.


----------



## Biscuitician (Jun 24, 2016)

There won't be a general election, even the Tories can't be that stupid.


----------



## seventh bullet (Jun 24, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> Suck my Irish ass. You come on here and you didn't even vote? FFS.



So I am not a 'UKIP collaborator' then.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 24, 2016)

seventh bullet said:


> So I am not a 'UKIP collaborator' then.



You're not even human, white boy


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 24, 2016)

Radio X playing House of Fun now


----------



## seventh bullet (Jun 24, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> You're not even human, white boy



I see.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 24, 2016)

Strange email from Ryanair just arrived:


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 24, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> You're not even human, white boy




Please stop this shit.


----------



## equationgirl (Jun 24, 2016)

This is a disaster for the UK.


----------



## Libertad (Jun 24, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> You're not even human, white boy



Mebbe give it a rest for a bit eh?


----------



## teqniq (Jun 24, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Strange email from Ryanair just arrived:
> 
> View attachment 88817


Mail from a parallel unievrse.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 24, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Strange email from Ryanair just arrived:
> 
> View attachment 88817


I was checking the fight info on Thursday when loads of flights were cancelled due to a strike and they started their info page with "due to industrial action by Socalist unions..."


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jun 24, 2016)

Fucking hell guys, everything is on fire.


We made Murdoch and Farage happy. Arses.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Jun 24, 2016)

Biscuitician said:


> There won't be a general election, even the Tories can't be that stupid.


Why? They'd win.


----------



## SovietArmy (Jun 24, 2016)

Socialist Revolution would be nice now.  Rebel.


----------



## seventh bullet (Jun 24, 2016)

SovietArmy said:


> Socialist Revolution would be nice now.



Especially the Terror bit.


----------



## hipipol (Jun 24, 2016)

seventh bullet said:


> So I am not a 'UKIP collaborator' then.


No you ARE CLASSIC English TURD


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Jun 24, 2016)

SovietArmy said:


> Socialist Revolution would be nice now.  Rebel.


Forward comrades!

Any day now!


----------



## maomao (Jun 24, 2016)

Artaxerxes said:


> We made Murdoch and Farage happy. Arses.



We made Pigfucker resign and Osborne's probably crying. Farage will never be in a position of political power in this country.


----------



## inva (Jun 24, 2016)

there's going to be some serious finger wagging isn't there


----------



## Libertad (Jun 24, 2016)

Predictably things are getting shitty on Urban.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 24, 2016)

equationgirl said:


> This is a disaster for the UK.




Why do you think that?


----------



## seventh bullet (Jun 24, 2016)

hipipol said:


> No you ARE CLASSIC English TURD



How much coke have you had today?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 24, 2016)

Did anyone else notice the bit in Cameron's speech about the Scottish referendum being decisive?


----------



## weltweit (Jun 24, 2016)

I hope that Trump fella has a visa!


----------



## camouflage (Jun 24, 2016)

SovietArmy said:


> Socialist Revolution would be nice now.  Rebel.



Wouldn't say as in against the wall, but nows certainly the moment for some sort of Leftish/social-progressive backlash.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 24, 2016)

weltweit said:


> I hope that Trump fella has a visa!



American's don't need one to visit the UK.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 24, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Why do you think that?


this thread. this thread is a disaster for the uk as it will go viral


----------



## purves grundy (Jun 24, 2016)

maomao said:


> We made Pigfucker resign and Osborne's probably crying. Farage will never be in a position of political power in this country.


Heard of a pyrrhic victory?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 24, 2016)

purves grundy said:


> Heard of a pyrrhic victory?




Yes, from a battle in Greece. How are things going over there these days?


----------



## Rob Ray (Jun 24, 2016)

camouflage said:


> Wouldn't say as in against the wall, but nows certainly the moment for some sort of Leftish/social-progressive backlash.



Lol sure, the massed cadres as expounded upon in the What's Left thread will be bringing the country to a halt and imposing the People's Will on Bojo any day now.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 24, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Yes, from a battle in Greece. How are things going over there these days?


no, from king pyrhhus of epirus.






king pyrhhus recently


----------



## hipipol (Jun 24, 2016)

seventh bullet said:


> How much coke have you had today?


Do you have a watch?
Can you see where the big and little hand are pointing?
Rather early for that sort of comment but then you are not really connected are you?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 24, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> no, from king pyrhhus of epirus.




In what country?


----------



## seventh bullet (Jun 24, 2016)

hipipol said:


> Do you have a watch?
> Can you see where the big and little hand are pointing?
> Rather early for that sort of comment but then you are not really connected are you?



Wouldn't know, I was working last night.


----------



## hipipol (Jun 24, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> this thread. this thread is a disaster for the uk as it will go viral


Fuck off bum bucket - you are even more stupid this morning than normal.....


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 24, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> In what country?


epirus. he was king of epirus.


----------



## seventh bullet (Jun 24, 2016)

hipipol said:


> Fuck off bum bucket - you are even more stupid this morning than normal.....



What is the point of you?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 24, 2016)

hipipol said:


> Fuck off bum bucket - you are even more stupid this morning than normal.....


bum bucket? you've scraped the playground insult barrel for that one. why not go back to bed till you're sober again.


----------



## Dogsauce (Jun 24, 2016)

Twitter:  'Boris Johnson has sacrificed a million jobs to gain one'


----------



## Lazy Llama (Jun 24, 2016)

*General Warning*
I would remind everyone to keep this civil.

Today is *NOT* a good day to piss off the mods.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 24, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> epirus. he was king of epirus.




And where was that then? Does Ryanair fly there?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 24, 2016)

Just phoned a hotel in Berlin, woman was very civil towards me and helped me with my query. That isn't how I was told it would be...


----------



## camouflage (Jun 24, 2016)

Rob Ray said:


> Lol sure, the massed cadres as expounded upon in the What's Left thread will be bringing the country to a halt and imposing the People's Will on Bojo any day now.



Well sure, but all those that were into the EU because of workers rights, womens rights, human rights etc... what will they do now, sit and watch the island fall into the hands of the same right that voted in the Tories and yanked us out of Europe, or try to er... take control?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 24, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> And where was that then? Does Ryanair fly there?


no, planes weren't invented when epirus existed



it was subsequently part of the roman empire, who took it off pyrrhus


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 24, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Just phoned a hotel in Berlin, woman was very civil towards me and helped me with my query. That isn't how I was told it would be...


My German neighbour greeted me this morning... But then she does everyday anyway.


----------



## hipipol (Jun 24, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> bum bucket? you've scraped the playground insult barrel for that one. why not go back to bed till you're sober again.


Bizarrely I am sober
Wishing I was heavily sedated mind, this act of collective stupidity makes any sentient being wish for some ill defined out of body and mind experience


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 24, 2016)

hipipol said:


> Bizarrely I am sober
> Wishing I was heavily sedated mind, this act of collective stupidity makes any sentient being wish for some ill defined out of body and mind experience


so you thought you'd respond with immature individual acts of stupidity


----------



## free spirit (Jun 24, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Just phoned a hotel in Berlin, woman was very civil towards me and helped me with my query. That isn't how I was told it would be...


they'll still take your money, they'll just take more of it than yesterday for the same thing.


----------



## Rob Ray (Jun 24, 2016)

camouflage said:


> Well sure, but all those that were into the EU because of workers rights, womens rights, human rights etc... what will they do now, sit and watch the island fall into the hands of the same right that voted in the Tories and yanked us out of Europe, or try to er... take control?



The former option, on previous evidence, though I'm sure there will be a lot of whining along the way about how no-one listens to them any more. Tbh the left's not even close to coming up with a strategy capable of wresting control of the Leave narrative from the right, as evidenced by the utterly irrelevant Lexit campaign.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jun 24, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> no, from king pyrhhus of epirus.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If your going to be that pedantic its worth noting the battle was at the head of Greek forces at the request of the Greek cities of the Italian Peninsula against the fledging Romans.


----------



## hipipol (Jun 24, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> so you thought you'd respond with immature individual acts of stupidity


Please climb down from your pinnacle of self importance, it does not impress, merely shows off your battered arse


----------



## Falcon (Jun 24, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Did anyone else notice the bit in Cameron's speech about the Scottish referendum being decisive?


The decisiveness of the Scottish referendum was contingent on UK’s membership of the EU. Now it is not decisive.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 24, 2016)

hipipol said:


> Please climb down from your pinnacle of self importance, it does not impress, merely shows off your bettered arse


whereas calling people bum bucket shows your intellectual superiority i suppose


----------



## maomao (Jun 24, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> And where was that then? Does Ryanair fly there?


Part of it was in what is now Albania. And the pyrrhic victory at Asculum happened in modern day Italy. Italy also screwed by the EU.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 24, 2016)

Artaxerxes said:


> If your going to be that pedantic its worth noting the battle was at the head of Greek forces at the request of the Greek cities of the Italian Peninsula against the fledging Romans.


it's hardly pedantic to say that the pyrhhic bit derived not from the name of a battle but from the name of a person.


----------



## inva (Jun 24, 2016)

wise words


----------



## Sprocket. (Jun 24, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Yes, from a battle in Greece. How are things going over there these days?



Quite sunny at the moment but can feel a bad storm brewing.
Road to Nowhere was just on the radio too!


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jun 24, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> it's hardly pedantic to say that the pyrhhic bit derived not from the name of a battle but from the name of a person.




I just want make sure we've got all the facts straight.


----------



## hipipol (Jun 24, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> whereas calling people bum bucket shows your intellectual superiority i suppose


Look
A great tragedy has occurred
This is a time for weeping, not sniping
Yet still, you are, and will remain, a bum bucket


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 24, 2016)

free spirit said:


> they'll still take your money, they'll just take more of it than yesterday for the same thing.




I called them to pay for the rooms for an Austrian and a Portuguese woman. I made the booking yesterday, €427 per room, the rate is the same today.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 24, 2016)

Artaxerxes said:


> I just want make sure we've got all the facts straight.


now that's pedantic, excessive attention to detail.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jun 24, 2016)

College is weird this morning. Some very glum faces. Music department is blasting out "Come together"


----------



## free spirit (Jun 24, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> I called them to pay for the rooms for an Austrian and a Portuguese woman. I made the booking yesterday, €427 per room, the rate is the same today.


do you get paid in euros or pounds?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 24, 2016)

free spirit said:


> do you get paid in euros or pounds?




Both.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 24, 2016)

hipipol said:


> Look
> A great tragedy has occurred
> This is a time for weeping, not sniping
> Yet still, you are, and will remain, a bum bucket


perhaps you'd be better off sitting weeping in a corner then instead of chucking round insults of which a child new to the playground would be ashamed.


----------



## Dr. Furface (Jun 24, 2016)

Biscuitician said:


> There won't be a general election, even the Tories can't be that stupid.


There might not be, but there should be - even if it won't make any difference.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jun 24, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> now that's pedantic, excessive attention to detail.



Praise from Caesar


----------



## free spirit (Jun 24, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Both.


well ok then, it won't cost you extra, but it will for the vast majority of the UK who get paid entirely in GBP.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 24, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> it's hardly pedantic to say that the pyrhhic bit derived not from the name of a battle but from the name of a person.




It is also not pedantic to say the pyrhhic victory comes from the battle.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Jun 24, 2016)

camouflage said:


> nows certainly the moment for some sort of Leftish/social-progressive backlash.


Won't happen. This is fantasy.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 24, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> My German neighbour greeted me this morning... But then she does everyday anyway.








What's she _really_ up to


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 24, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> It is also not pedantic to say the pyrhhic victory comes from the battle.


perhaps we should have some sort of classics pedantry thread where this fascinating discussion could resume.


----------



## camouflage (Jun 24, 2016)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Won't happen. This is fantasy.



Yes, don't struggle... just let it happen. Think of England.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 24, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> perhaps we should have some sort of classics pedantry thread where this fascinating discussion could resume.



Can't now we're not in the EU, that kind of shit is banned. Fucking Farage.


----------



## hipipol (Jun 24, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> perhaps you'd be better off sitting weeping in a corner then instead of chucking round insults of which a child new to the playground would be ashamed.


Oh Dear
My dead Granny has better comebacks than you


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 24, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Fucking Farage.


that kind of shit is definitely banned 

is it any coincidence his initials are NF?


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jun 24, 2016)

Won't one of you just let the other have the last word ffs


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 24, 2016)

hipipol said:


> Oh Dear
> My dead Granny has better comebacks than you


yeh and i bet she'd be glad to be dragged into your little whining diarrhoeic stream of bile.


----------



## hipipol (Jun 24, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh and i bet she'd be glad to be dragged into your little whining diarrhoeic stream of bile.


You are emitting the most bile this morning - I assume genuflecting to your Farage posters has drained the blood from your head?


----------



## weltweit (Jun 24, 2016)

Dr. Furface said:


> There might not be, but there should be - even if it won't make any difference.


Speaking for myself, I had enough of this voting business for a while


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 24, 2016)

Markets have bounced back.







Will no one think of the narrative?


----------



## free spirit (Jun 24, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Markets have bounced back.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


bounced back? Or the BOE has jumped in and started it's attempts to prop up the pound?


----------



## Reiabuzz (Jun 24, 2016)

Where did these people come from? I can honestly say I dont know a single person, at work or in my personal life who would even consider going for Brexit.

I guess the commentators got it completely wrong, again, but maybe an independence vote for London is in order. Fuck Britain


----------



## 2hats (Jun 24, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Markets have bounced back.


You'd walk with a skip in your step if someone had just promised you a quarter of a trillion of someone else's money.


----------



## seventh bullet (Jun 24, 2016)

Reiabuzz said:


> Where did these people come from? I can honestly say I dont know a single person, at work or in my personal life who would even consider going for Brexit.
> 
> I guess the commentators got it completely wrong, again, but maybe an independence vote for London is in order. Fuck Britain



lol.


----------



## Poi E (Jun 24, 2016)

Reiabuzz said:


> Where did these people come from? I can honestly say I dont know a single person, at work or in my personal life who would even consider going for Brexit.
> 
> I guess the commentators got it completely wrong, again, but maybe an independence vote for London is in order. Fuck Britain



Fuck England, surely.


----------



## Reiabuzz (Jun 24, 2016)

Good call


----------



## mauvais (Jun 24, 2016)

Reiabuzz said:


> maybe an independence vote for London is in order. Fuck Britain


That's a large part of what did it in the first place.


----------



## Reiabuzz (Jun 24, 2016)

Even the people at work who voted Out by postal vote weeks ago seem to be regretting it


----------



## inva (Jun 24, 2016)

another opportunity now, whatever their feelings about the result, for some on the left to be shocked out of their complacency and to start the hard work of closing the chasm that has opened between them and those millions of working class people whose views must now seem so alien. hopefully in the aftermath there will be some time taken to understand why this has happened and to form new strategies in place of ones that have failed so badly.


----------



## TopCat (Jun 24, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> Oh, because I'm stupid. Haven't you heard?
> 
> All of us who voted remain, who wanted to keep this country out of isolation are....


Supporters of anti worker globalisation?


----------



## Purdie (Jun 24, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> One thing I won't miss with this country is the obsssession with "class".
> 
> Am fucking grieving today - if you want to make a class thing out of it; fine but it means nothing to me.



I remember the transformation of N16.  The yuppies left a lot bigger mark over the years than the Kurds ever did.
Class is so passe.  It's all about elitism.  And self serving gentrification. 
And all those that can't or don't want to keep up with this consumer society have very little to turn to.
It's not so much a class thing as it should be a wake-up call to the effect the social insensitivity of the ABC1's towards the C2DE's is having.

It's such a fucking shame.  Spent the best years of my life in the UK



Reiabuzz said:


> Where did these people come from? I can honestly say I dont know a single person, at work or in my personal life who would even consider going for Brexit.


Do you know anybody that reads The Sun?

I do


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 24, 2016)

Reiabuzz said:


> Where did these people come from? I can honestly say I dont know a single person, at work or in my personal life who would even consider going for Brexit.
> 
> I guess the commentators got it completely wrong, again, but maybe an independence vote for London is in order. Fuck Britain


Weren't you the one proclaiming last night that Sunderland isn't representative of Britain? I think maybe your representation radar needs some fine tuning - or at least class/social demographic tweaking.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 24, 2016)

Reiabuzz said:


> Even the people at work who voted Out by postal vote weeks ago seem to be regretting it


I thought you didn't know anyone who voted out - at work in your private life?


----------



## Reiabuzz (Jun 24, 2016)

Good call, things and revelations are moving quickly here


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 24, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Markets have bounced back.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I have missed this gif. Best gif ever! Thank you for the resurrection.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 24, 2016)

Liveist said:


> potentially reinstating the border with the Republic of Ireland... Well done UK.


 the border never went away. if it had there'd be only one polity in ireland.


----------



## weltweit (Jun 24, 2016)

How did your area vote?

*EU Referendum Results - BBC News*


----------



## Favelado (Jun 24, 2016)

Now to take back India.


----------



## chilango (Jun 24, 2016)

weltweit said:


> How did your area vote?
> 
> *EU Referendum Results - BBC News*



Reading was 58% Remain 42% Leave.

(so my prediction was close enough where I live...just utterly, utterly wrong nationally)


----------



## moody (Jun 24, 2016)

I know this is probably been discussed before but I really wonder how this will effect my right to work and live in the EU as I have social security numbers and bank accounts in 4 EU / EEA countries?  and might like to return to work seasons in some in the future?


----------



## sim667 (Jun 24, 2016)

free spirit said:


> bounced back? Or the BOE has jumped in and started it's attempts to prop up the pound?


They're pumping in £250 Million.

I guess they'll have to keep pumping money in until it all stabilises..... but feck knows when that will be.


----------



## Kesher (Jun 24, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> perhaps you'd be better off sitting weeping in a corner then instead of chucking round insults of which a child new to the playground would be ashamed.


 

Let's face it Pickman's model you also have never been shy of chucking round insults


----------



## chilango (Jun 24, 2016)

chilango said:


> Reading was 58% Remain 42% Leave.
> 
> (so my prediction was close enough where I live...just utterly, utterly wrong nationally)



Edited to add:

...and Bristol, where I spend a lot of time, was 62% R 38% L so I must have been on to something!


----------



## 2hats (Jun 24, 2016)

sim667 said:


> They're pumping in £250 *Million*.


*Billion*.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 24, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> I thought you didn't know anyone who voted out - at work in your private life?




The lies just keep on coming.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 24, 2016)

Kesher said:


> Let's face it Pickman's model you also have never been shy of chucking round insults


well spotted. but they're not of the playground variety.


----------



## purves grundy (Jun 24, 2016)

weltweit said:


> How did your area vote?
> 
> *EU Referendum Results - BBC News*


70% Leave here in NE Lincs


----------



## TopCat (Jun 24, 2016)

Surprise surprise Capitalism continues.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 24, 2016)

moody said:


> I know this is probably been discussed before but I really wonder how this will effect my right to work and live in the EU as I have social security numbers and bank accounts in 4 EU / EEA countries?  and might like to return to work seasons in some in the future?


nothing will change until the completion of departure negotiations.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 24, 2016)

TopCat said:


> Surprise surprise Capitalism continues.


----------



## 2hats (Jun 24, 2016)

Doctor Carrot said:


> So Cameron's gotta go now surely the pig fucking cunt can't survive this?


Amazing to think that fucking a pig's head is now not his worse idea.


----------



## Kesher (Jun 24, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> well spotted. but they're not of the playground variety.



I knew you would say that


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jun 24, 2016)

purves grundy said:


> here


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jun 24, 2016)

2hats said:


> Amazing to think that fucking a pig's head is now not his worse idea.


----------



## Wilhelmina.Trav (Jun 24, 2016)

I'm still in a state of shock over this 

Evey


----------



## ffsear (Jun 24, 2016)

Just looking at the markets  GBP has gained 600 points since the result and is now above the lows of the year.


----------



## TopCat (Jun 24, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> Fuck off white boy.


This fella just gets worse.


----------



## free spirit (Jun 24, 2016)

sim667 said:


> They're pumping in £250 billion.
> 
> I guess they'll have to keep pumping money in until it all stabilises..... but feck knows when that will be.



and will that be enough?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 24, 2016)

ffsear said:


> Just looking at the markets  GBP has gained 600 points since the result and is now above the lows of the year.





TopCat said:


> Surprise surprise Capitalism continues.


----------



## TopCat (Jun 24, 2016)

M


Lazy Llama said:


> *General Warning*
> I would remind everyone to keep this civil.
> 
> Today is *NOT* a good day to piss off the mods.


Mod remainders take revenge.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 24, 2016)

Kesher said:


> I knew you would say that


do you have anything more to say on the subject of the thread or will you continue your pointless wittering?


----------



## purves grundy (Jun 24, 2016)

S☼I said:


>


All part of my air of mystery.

(Edited now)


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 24, 2016)

ffsear said:


> Just looking at the markets  GBP has gained 600 points since the result and is now above the lows of the year.


what are you talking about? what is this gbp of which you speak?


----------



## Biscuitician (Jun 24, 2016)

Dr. Furface said:


> There might not be, but there should be - even if it won't make any difference.


There are lots of things that shouldn't be, including Boris Johnson, David Cameron, and the rest of the Tories, as well as our sham political system.

But I don't see anything that compels an election after a change in leadership. Cameron was going to resign prior to the next election anyway and there wasn't a GE when Brown took over from Blair.


----------



## eoin_k (Jun 24, 2016)

ffsear said:


> Just looking at the markets  GBP has gained 600 points since the result and is now above the lows of the year.



I think we may have already covered that:



2hats said:


> You'd walk with a skip in your step if someone had just promised you a quarter of a trillion of someone else's money.


----------



## Biscuitician (Jun 24, 2016)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Why? They'd win.


They already won. Last year. Why would they risk it again, even if they'd win?


----------



## Biscuitician (Jun 24, 2016)

So, British Britannia is going to sail the seas alone, again. The left leave element got what it wanted, so how do you plan to make an exit a Lexit?


----------



## Biscuitician (Jun 24, 2016)

On a practical note, maybe merge some of these threads. There seem to be more of them than we have bloody immigrants!


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jun 24, 2016)

Fucking baby boomers. Good luck finding staff to run your nursing homes once all the migrant workers have been chased off.


----------



## hipipol (Jun 24, 2016)

Under achiever and Proud of It
This is a nation of Barts


----------



## xenon (Jun 24, 2016)

Poi E said:


> Fuck England, surely.



And Wales?

Where do you bubble freaks come from that you don't know anyone who'd voted or considered voting Brexit. I didn't vote Brexit BTW. But really. Pull your heads out of your arses. Try talking to people, seeing what's going on.


----------



## TopCat (Jun 24, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> Fucking baby boomers. Good luck finding staff to run your nursing homes once all the migrant workers have been chased off.


Pay people a decent wage rather than stealing the trained and qualified from abroad?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jun 24, 2016)

TopCat said:


> Pay people a decent wage rather than stealing the trained and qualified from abroad?



Yes I'm sure that's what will happen.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 24, 2016)

xenon said:


> And Wales?
> 
> Where do you bubble freaks come from that you don't know anyone who'd voted or considered voting Brexit. I didn't vote Brexit BTW. But really. Pull your heads out of your arses. Try talking to people, seeing what's going on.




Urban filled with middle-class liberals shocker.


----------



## Reiabuzz (Jun 24, 2016)

xenon said:


> And Wales?
> 
> Where do you bubble freaks come from that you don't know anyone who'd voted or considered voting Brexit. I didn't vote Brexit BTW. But really. Pull your heads out of your arses. Try talking to people, seeing what's going on.



Er, I do talk to people. It's been a pretty big topic of conversation in case you haven't noticed. I live in London however, which was overwhelmingly stay, and I live in Lambeth which was 80% stay. I think people were either too shy or too ashamed to out themselves as Out


----------



## Gromit (Jun 24, 2016)

Lots of people are asking how and when the £350mil a week is going to be spent on the NHS. 

Farage has quickly distanced himself from the claim. 

Many others to follow me thinks. 

/Nevergoingtohappen. 
/youvebeenmugged


----------



## rubbershoes (Jun 24, 2016)

TopCat said:


> Pay people a decent wage rather than stealing the trained and qualified from abroad?




Leaving isn't going to do that


----------



## teqniq (Jun 24, 2016)

I hope Farange's 'without a bullet being fired' comes back to haunt him. Miss what happened to Jo Cox did he?


----------



## mk12 (Jun 24, 2016)

Gromit said:


> Lots of people are asking how and when the £350mil a week is going to be spent on the NHS.
> 
> Farage has quickly distanced himself from the claim.
> 
> ...



I don't get this. Why are people asking Farage if he'll see this pledge through? He's not even an MP let alone a member of the government.


----------



## mwgdrwg (Jun 24, 2016)

You know this £250 billion capital by the BoE....where is it taken _from_?

What I'n thinking is, even if not used...making it available is taking it from somewhere, right?

e2a: excuse my simplistic question, I don'r know anything about economics


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jun 24, 2016)

mk12 said:


> I don't get this. Why are people asking Farage if he'll see this pledge through? He's not even an MP let alone a member of the government.



In fact, as an MEP, he's just put himself out of a job.

Well, himself and 5 million other people.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jun 24, 2016)

mwgdrwg said:


> You know this £250 billion capital by the BoE....where is it taken _from_?



Future generations.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 24, 2016)

xenon said:


> And Wales?
> 
> Where do you bubble freaks come from that you don't know anyone who'd voted or considered voting Brexit. I didn't vote Brexit BTW. But really. Pull your heads out of your arses. Try talking to people, seeing what's going on.


well said


----------



## mk12 (Jun 24, 2016)

mk12 said:


> I don't get this. Why are people asking Farage if he'll see this pledge through? He's not even an MP let alone a member of the government.



Do people think the Vote Leave leadership team is the government or something?

Stupid, ignorant remainers. They shouldn't have been allowed to vote.


----------



## rubbershoes (Jun 24, 2016)

mk12 said:


> Do people think the Vote Leave leadership team is the government or something?
> 
> Stupid, ignorant remainers. They shouldn't have been allowed to vote.




I  see what you did there


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jun 24, 2016)




----------



## mk12 (Jun 24, 2016)




----------



## SpookyFrank (Jun 24, 2016)

Cameron pretty much guaranteed to go down in history as the worst PM ever now. He's lost us the NHS, the EU and probably Scotland too.


----------



## teqniq (Jun 24, 2016)




----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 24, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> Cameron pretty much guaranteed to go down in history as the worst PM ever now. He's lost us the NHS, the EU and probably Scotland too.


lucky auld scotland


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 24, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> Future generations.


Brexit brings swift imposition of socialist measures ...









... for the rich.


----------



## free spirit (Jun 24, 2016)

Biscuitician said:


> So, British Britannia is going to sail the seas alone, again. The left leave element got what it wanted, so how do you plan to make an exit a Lexit?


there's a thread on that, unfortunately it seems there is no plan for what happens when their protest vote actually helps to usher in the UK right's wet dreams version of reality.

They spend years / decades telling everyone else how shit they are.... time to face their own medicine, this is what they campaigned for, so they need to own their victory and come up with a plan for dealing with the consequences sharpish IMO.


----------



## rubbershoes (Jun 24, 2016)

Biscuitician said:


> So, British Britannia is going to sail the seas alone, again. The left leave element got what it wanted, so how do you plan to make an exit a Lexit?




it won't.  Scotland will leave and we'll be left  with the tories in charge at Westminster for ever


----------



## killer b (Jun 24, 2016)

rubbershoes said:


> the tories in charge at Westminster for ever


this just isn't true. look at the UK election results for the last 50 years - maybe two of them would have been different without Scotland.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 24, 2016)

1 down 1 to go. The job's not even half done. Now we need to kick out the cunts at Westminster. Full on constitutional reform.


----------



## free spirit (Jun 24, 2016)

killer b said:


> this just isn't true. look at the UK election results for the last 50 years - maybe two of them would have been different without Scotland.


so only 2 out of 5 labour wins would have been tory instead?


----------



## killer b (Jun 24, 2016)

free spirit said:


> so only 2 out of 5 labour wins would have been tory instead?


Yeah. That's still a long way from 'tories forever'


----------



## mojo pixy (Jun 24, 2016)

Fascists across Europe are congratulating us now. Ugh.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 24, 2016)

mojo pixy said:


> Fascists across Europe are congratulating us now. Ugh.



Supporters of democracy are too.


----------



## free spirit (Jun 24, 2016)

killer b said:


> Yeah. That's still a long way from 'tories forever'


it's hardly insignificant though, and over that time period scotland has gone further to the left, and England further to the right. In 1964 the tories had 24 seats in scotland.


----------



## teqniq (Jun 24, 2016)

Dianne Abbott in the Graun

The dispossessed voted for Brexit. Jeremy Corbyn offers real change | Diane Abbott


----------



## killer b (Jun 24, 2016)

I didn't say it was insignificant. I just said it wasn't true. Which it isn't.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 24, 2016)

How is Scotland going to fuck off by the way? Did they not have a vote recently and chose to stay? Is another vote on the cards? Was there a clause that if England and Wales voted out of the EU the union is over?

eta, this is a serious question, can Sturgeon call another vote or does that have to come from Westminster?


----------



## mojo pixy (Jun 24, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Supporters of democracy are too.



''supporters of democracy'' would be happy either way, presumably. Whereas the euro-fash appear to be especially happy with this particular result.


----------



## Reiabuzz (Jun 24, 2016)

Well done northerners...


----------



## inva (Jun 24, 2016)

Reiabuzz said:


> Well done northerners...


maybe they didn't think they were feeling the benefit of being economically 'intertwined'?


----------



## Dogsauce (Jun 24, 2016)

The Government doesn't give a shit about Yorkshire, Manchester is their token champion in the north.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 24, 2016)

inva said:


> maybe they didn't think they were feeling the benefit of being economically 'intertwined'?


Thickies didn't understand what they were voting for.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 24, 2016)

Reiabuzz said:


> Well done northerners...


And what does this tell you about how these people are experiencing this economic dependence? What does it tell you about who is benefiting from it? What does it tell you about how the EU interacts with local capitals and working classes? Anything at all? Anything political?


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Jun 24, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> How is Scotland going to fuck off by the way? Did they not have a vote recently and chose to stay? Is another vote on the cards? Was there a clause that if England and Wales voted out of the EU the union is over?
> 
> eta, this is a serious question, can Sturgeon call another vote or does that have to come from Westminster?


According to my friend who is a law grad she can, as there is a material change in circumstances. I don't have time to look this up or link to info, perhaps someone more educated than me can jump in?


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 24, 2016)

Oddly enough these are, despite the 'economic dependence' on the EU, amongst the most deprived areas of the country. Odd that eh?


----------



## inva (Jun 24, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> Thickies didn't understand what they were voting for.


no wonder we left them behind!


----------



## weepiper (Jun 24, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> How is Scotland going to fuck off by the way? Did they not have a vote recently and chose to stay? Is another vote on the cards? Was there a clause that if England and Wales voted out of the EU the union is over?
> 
> eta, this is a serious question, can Sturgeon call another vote or does that have to come from Westminster?


There's another thread where this is currently being discussed
Scotland and the EU: what next?


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 24, 2016)

Reiabuzz said:


> Well done northerners...



Thickco northerners, right? Just fuck off right now. Maybe people don't want to be 'dependent' anymore. Fuck your paternalism!


----------



## teqniq (Jun 24, 2016)

Cornwall too

Cornwall pleas for reassurance it will not be 'worse off' following Brexit vote


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 24, 2016)

Reiabuzz said:


> Well done northerners...



What does this graph actually tell you?


----------



## teqniq (Jun 24, 2016)




----------



## Plumdaff (Jun 24, 2016)

mwgdrwg said:


> You know this £250 billion capital by the BoE....where is it taken _from_?
> 
> What I'n thinking is, even if not used...making it available is taking it from somewhere, right?
> 
> e2a: excuse my simplistic question, I don'r know anything about economics



It's been taken from us, over about 30 years. 

Seen Carwyn Jones looking like death on the Welsh news pleading for Wales not to lose out financially and to renegotiate the Barnett formula. Not really doing that from a position of strength, I think it's unlikely


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 24, 2016)

Sore losers.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jun 24, 2016)

Dogsauce said:


> The Government doesn't give a shit about Yorkshire



Well they have to be right about something.


----------



## Libertad (Jun 24, 2016)

Reiabuzz said:


> Well done northerners...



Easy Yorks


----------



## emanymton (Jun 24, 2016)

mauvais said:


> And leaving southern European countries to deal with asylum entirely on their own would be somehow better? The idealist logic of the Brexiteer, unhindered by reality.


I think we should save people who are drowning. You'd rather let them drown, there're not even Europeans after all. This is what you voted to support anyway. I didn't vote to support anything. I voted to oppose an organisation that leaves people to die because they were born on the wrong side of a line.


----------



## Reiabuzz (Jun 24, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> What does this graph actually tell you?



I think that's fairly clear isn't it?


----------



## 2hats (Jun 24, 2016)

mwgdrwg said:


> You know this £250 billion capital by the BoE....where is it taken _from_?


NHS and pensions. Next few decades worth.


----------



## campanula (Jun 24, 2016)

Hmmm didn't see any such furious petitions after the slender Tory majority (on a minuscule turnout) at the last GE.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 24, 2016)

emanymton said:


> I think we should save people who are drowning. You'd rather let them drown, there're not even Europeans after all. This is what you voted to support anyway. I didn't vote to support anything. I voted to oppose an organisation that leaves people to die because they were born on the wrong side of a line.


The EU does more than that - it pays people to turn them into sex slaves, actual slaves or hyper-exploited dependent day (or hour) workers in turkey, lebanon or across north africa.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 24, 2016)

Reiabuzz said:


> I think that's fairly clear isn't it?


It's certainly not clear to me what this graph tells _you _- that's why i asked you what it tells you. Any chance of answering my post above?


----------



## 2hats (Jun 24, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Sore losers.


Yes. Everyone will be.


----------



## andysays (Jun 24, 2016)

teqniq said:


>




Interesting that before the result was known, it was mostly the danger of disgruntled Leave supporters crying "foul" if the result didn't go their way...


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 24, 2016)

Reiabuzz said:


> I think that's fairly clear isn't it?



No. I am not clear what that graph means to you, hence me asking.


----------



## emanymton (Jun 24, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> The EU does more than that - it pays people to turn them into sex slaves, actual slaves or hyper-exploited dependent day (or hour) workers in turkey, lebanon or across north africa.


Frontex?


----------



## mauvais (Jun 24, 2016)

emanymton said:


> I think we should save people who are drowning. You'd rather let them drown, there're not even Europeans after all. This is what you voted to support anyway. I didn't vote to support anything. I voted to oppose an organisation that leaves people to die because they were born on the wrong side of a line.


What utter shit.

_Who_ is going to save them in any version of the future you care to come up with? The navy of you?

You can criticise or punish or vote against the EU on the basis that it doesn't do enough for asylum seekers. That would be entirely justifiable on that basis. But FFS don't do it on the basis that afterwards it's going to be better for people on boats in the Med, because when it's destroyed, _noone _is going to do _anything _for them, not least because there's not going to be any money for anyone relevant to do it, and they're all going to die. Brilliant plan.


----------



## Reiabuzz (Jun 24, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> It's certainly not clear to me what this graph tells _you _- that's why i asked you what it tells you. Any chance of answering my post above?



Sorry, missed your post. What it tells me politically is that the In campaign massively fucked up if they couldn't even convince the very people who rely on the EU for their livelihoods that leaving was a bonkers idea. 

And probably that the immigration issue clouded these peoples judgement so badly that we have woken up to the very real prospect of Boris Johnson being our PM in October. Still trying to get my head around how this was even mooted let alone allowed to happen.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 24, 2016)

emanymton said:


> Frontex?


The eu is paying turkey, Sudan, Jordan and Niger etc to stop people trying to get into fortress europe - to detain them in camps or prison or sell them off to local gangsters/capitals. Frontex is the _second _line of defence after  these borders beyond borders are breached.


----------



## Reiabuzz (Jun 24, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> No. I am not clear what that graph means to you, hence me asking.



Explained below. Basically, to sum up more succinctly, there a lot of fucking idiots in this country. They've not just shot themselves in the foot, they've blown their fucking leg off.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 24, 2016)

Reiabuzz said:


> Sorry, missed your post. What it tells me politically is that the In campaign massively fucked up if they couldn't even convince the very people who rely on the EU for their livelihoods that leaving was a bonkers idea.
> 
> And probably that the immigration issue clouded these peoples judgement so badly that we have woken up to the very real prospect of Boris Johnson being our PM in October. Still trying to get my head around how this was even mooted let alone allowed to happen.


What does it tell you about how the people in these economic dependencies are experiencing this? What does it tell you about who benefits from it? What does it tell you that these are the most deprived areas? What does it tell you about _the people_ in these areas?


----------



## BigMoaner (Jun 24, 2016)

why does everyone call Boris, "boris"

We don't call cameron "David" or Major, "john"

I'm fucking sick of it. rips radiator off the wall and throws it in the garden.

carry on.


----------



## emanymton (Jun 24, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> The eu is paying turkey, Sudan, Jordan and Niger etc to stop people trying to get into fortress europe - to detain them in camps or prison or sell them off to local gangsters/capitals. Frontex is the _second _line of defence after  these borders beyond borders are breached.


My menory was foggy. Couldn't  remember if Frontex where involved with the camps or not.


----------



## Wilhelmina.Trav (Jun 24, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> Cameron pretty much guaranteed to go down in history as the worst PM ever now. He's lost us the NHS, the EU and probably Scotland too.



Totally. What an asshole... Oh I hope don't lose the NHS. 

Evey


----------



## Falcon (Jun 24, 2016)

mwgdrwg said:


> You know this £250 billion capital by the BoE....where is it taken _from_?



Debt is created to fund it.

The current financial system treats future *growth* as collateral for current *debt*. ‘Debt’ is things like your pension. UK public debt has doubled since 2008.

It presumes that the system (specifically, our children’s incomes) will grow enough to pay our debt.

If the system doesn’t grow enough, the debt doesn’t get paid.

The system is, in fact, contracting. Overnight, the UK economy shrank in size from 5th to 6th


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jun 24, 2016)

BigMoaner said:


> why does everyone call Boris, "boris"
> 
> We don't call cameron "David" or Major, "john"
> 
> ...



Don't worry, soon we'll all have to call him 'mein fuhrer'.


----------



## Libertad (Jun 24, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> Don't worry, soon we'll all have to call him 'mein fuhrer'.



I see him more as Il Duce, watch him dance.


----------



## Tankus (Jun 24, 2016)

did Carwyn had another one of his "moments" early this morning ?






The dead sheep vote  is looking increasingly less dependable over years


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jun 24, 2016)

Falcon said:


> Debt is created to fund it.
> 
> The current financial system treats future *growth* as collateral for current *debt*. ‘Debt’ is things like your pension. UK public debt has doubled since 2008.
> 
> ...



There's been precious little real growth since the last time the bank pulled this money-printing (or IOU-printing, more accurately) stunt. Chickens are gonna come home to roost for all this some day.


----------



## ska invita (Jun 24, 2016)

BigMoaner said:


> why does everyone call Boris, "boris"
> 
> We don't call cameron "David" or Major, "john"
> 
> ...


Especially as Johnson is US slang for a penis. Total missed opportunity.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 24, 2016)

Falcon said:


> Debt is created to fund it.
> 
> The current financial system treats future *growth* as collateral for current *debt*. ‘Debt’ is things like your pension. UK public debt has doubled since 2008.
> 
> ...



This analysis doesn't feel right. What do you mean by "the system is contracting"? How on earth will debt denominated in a sovereign currency not get paid?


----------



## Reiabuzz (Jun 24, 2016)

Trumps loving it...

[US presidential hopeful Donald Trump has said it is a "great thing" that the people of the UK have "taken back their country" in voting to leave the EU. [/QUOTE]

Well done all you brexiters on this site. You've got presidential approval.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 24, 2016)

2hats said:


> NHS and pensions. Next few decades worth.


Most probably. Truth is that nobody yet knows how quantitative easing will eventually be resolved. Nobody who's engaged in it has yet faced up to its inevitable consequences. Long-term economic stagnation, with the wages of those at the bottom constrained the most, seems the most likely outcome until those consequences are faced up to.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 24, 2016)

Reiabuzz said:


> Trumps loving it...
> 
> [US presidential hopeful Donald Trump has said it is a "great thing" that the people of the UK have "taken back their country" in voting to leave the EU.
> 
> Well done all you brexiters on this site. You've got presidential approval.



For pity's sake. Grow up


----------



## ska invita (Jun 24, 2016)

Reiabuzz said:


> Well done northerners...


Im still surprised the North East voted against 'independence' when it was offered to the region in the New Labour era. I really thought theyd go for it.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 24, 2016)

seventh bullet said:


> What is the point of you?



Maybe you could post something telling him to kill himself?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 24, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> This analysis doesn't feel right. What do you mean by "the system is contracting"? How on earth will debt denominated in a sovereign currency not get paid?


New money is created, but it does not represent additional wealth. At some point, the money needs either to be destroyed or devalued, or the extra wealth needs to come along to be represented by it.


----------



## mauvais (Jun 24, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Most probably. Truth is that nobody yet knows how quantitative easing will eventually be resolved. Nobody who's engaged in it has yet faced up to its inevitable consequences. Long-term economic stagnation, with the wages of those at the bottom constrained the most, seems the most likely outcome until those consequences are faced up to.


This is a global issue too though. I think Neil Woodford has it about right when he says many of the global instabilities will eclipse domestic/Brexit ones.


----------



## ska invita (Jun 24, 2016)

Biscuitician said:


> On a practical note, maybe merge some of these threads. There seem to be more of them than we have bloody immigrants! .


I genuinely think it needs more threads on the many different sub areas of discussion.
In fact I think it could do with a subforum.
Shall I make a Poll thread?


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 24, 2016)

TopCat said:


> This fella just gets worse.



Yeah, yeah. Stick to your cherry picking.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 24, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> New money is created, but it does not represent additional wealth. At some point, the money needs either to be destroyed or devalued, or the extra wealth needs to come along to be represented by it.



By devalue do you mean through inflation?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 24, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> By devalue do you mean through inflation?


Yes. Or a formal overnight devaluation.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 24, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Urban filled with middle-class liberals shocker.



And what an insult, inferring that all working class support the brexit. Shocker.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 24, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Yes. Or a formal overnight devaluation.



How does a formal devaluation occur in a floating exchange rate system? Doesn't that just happen automatically like we are seeing now with the pound falling in value? Is this necessarily a bad thing? We've seen in Greece how being stuck to an over-valued currency can cause massive unemployment.

I'm not arguing with you, by the way. Just trying to get an idea of these things beyond my own knowledge.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 24, 2016)

Time for Scottish independence. And Welsh. And... if the majority wants it, why not, NI/6 counties.

The naysayers who were so vocal against Scottish independence 2 years ago haven't got a fucking leg to stand on.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 24, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> And what an insult, inferring that all working class support the brexit. Shocker.




Quite how does it do that then?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 24, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> Time for Scottish independence. And Welsh. And... if the majority wants it, why not, NI/6 counties.
> 
> The naysayers who were so vocal against Scottish independence 2 years ago haven't got a fucking leg to stand on.



The Welsh voted out of the EU.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 24, 2016)

This thread managed to get back on tack after krteks earlier _behaviour_ - can we not let him drag it back to him etc please?


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Jun 24, 2016)

​


krtek a houby said:


> The naysayers who were so vocal against Scottish independence 2 years ago haven't got a fucking leg to stand on.



What about those in favour of the UK out of the EU and the right of the Scots to self determination?

Louis MacNeice


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 24, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Quite how does it do that then?



How is urban full of middle class liberals, then? Is that what you collaborators reckon us remainers are?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 24, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> This thread managed to get back on tack after krteks earlier _behaviour_ - can we not let him drag it back to him etc please?




Fair enough.


----------



## comrade spurski (Jun 24, 2016)

Sitting in a cafe and the vileness of the discussion by 3 blokes in here is soul destroying.
Anti immigrant, anti asylum seekers, anti Muslim and anti black. All scroungers,criminals, nicking  our jobs etc. Ieat or drink here every lunch time and have been coming here for years as I live round the corner ... never been like this. Hope it's just a shit coincidence but doubt it. I know many voted out for non race reasons so do not judge out voters as racists but the campaign barely moved away from immigration. My fear about a leave vote was about how the minority of racist fucks in the country would gain confidence and this ain't making me feel any better to be honest.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 24, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> This thread managed to get back on tack after krteks earlier _behaviour_ - can we not let him drag it back to him etc please?



Who made you Mod almighty, you cock?


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 24, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> How is urban full of middle class liberals, then? Is that what you collaborators reckon us remainers are?



Nearly a third here went to private school.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 24, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Nearly a third here went to private school.



So what?

Seriously - what is the point? Years and years of the same voices here, sneering at the middle class, the liberals etc etc.

Not saying that there aren't those that deserve it but just imagine if someone came here and said the same thing about the working class day in day out.

How divisive some people are


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 24, 2016)

Louis MacNeice said:


> ​
> 
> What about those in favour of the UK out of the EU and the right of the Scots to self determination?
> 
> Louis MacNeice


There's an odd group of people i've noticed this last week as well - supporters of scottish independence opposed to a leave vote because it would break up the UK.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 24, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> How does a formal devaluation occur in a listing exchange rate system? Doesn't that just happen automatically like we are seeing now with the pound falling in value? Is this necessarily a bad thing? We've seen in Greece how being stuck to an over-valued currency can cause massive unemployment.
> 
> I'm not arguing with you, by the way. Just trying to get an idea of these things beyond my own knowledge.


Well yes, and that devaluation, if it continues long-term, is itself an inflationary pressure. But there are also anti-inflationary pressures that come from a reluctance to borrow - hence the stagnation. 'formal devaluation' wasn't quite right, sorry - by that I meant actions carried out by the BoE specifically to bring about devaluation, which can take place within a listing exchange rate system. 

My guess wrt the UK is that the property bubble that QE has sustained will fall out at some point, and the 'correction' will come in the shape of various people losing their homes. The UK doesn't have massive unemployment atm, mind you, suggesting that the current exchange rates are sustainable. Anyway, markets are going to be all over the place for a bit. Hard to see the bigger picture atm.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 24, 2016)

comrade spurski said:


> Sitting in a cafe and the vileness of the discussion by 3 blokes in here is soul destroying.
> Anti immigrant, anti asylum seekers, anti Muslim and anti black. All scroungers,criminals, nicking  our jobs etc. Ieat or drink here every lunch time and have been coming here for years as I live round the corner ... never been like this. Hope it's just a shit coincidence but doubt it. I know many voted out for non race reasons so do not judge out voters as racists but the campaign barely moved away from immigration. My fear about a leave vote was about how the minority of racist fucks in the country would gain confidence and this ain't making me feel any better to be honest.



You are correct - the out voters are not necessarily racist and their concerns need addressing. But they've given the racists a platform, a legitimacy.

And that's a fucking shame.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 24, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> So what?
> 
> Seriously - what is the point? Years and years of the same voices here, sneering at the middle class, the liberals etc etc.
> 
> ...



Point is you asked how we know the social make-up of U75. I answered.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 24, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Point is you asked how we know the social make-up of U75. I answered.



Would urban be a better place if you purged it of the middle classes and liberals, do you think?


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 24, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> Would urban be a better place if you purged it of the middle classes and liberals, do you think?



Why do you read anything at all into my answer? You asked a question and I answered.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 24, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> You are correct - the out voters are not necessarily racist and their concerns need addressing. But they've given the racists a platform, a legitimacy.
> 
> And that's a fucking shame.



Well it's the media that's given Farage and the like a platform, and him that made it all about immigration.


----------



## mk12 (Jun 24, 2016)

two sheds said:


> Well it's the media that's given Farage and the like a platform, and him that made it all about immigration.


Before Farage appeared on our tellies, nobody had any issues whatsoever with the free movement of labour.


----------



## oryx (Jun 24, 2016)

A huge victory for the right and far right. 

No-one will benefit from this. Ordinary people certainly won't. There will be massive financial uncertainty (it might come as a surprise to some of you on here that ordinary people have pensions, savings and mortgages) and the likelihood of an even more right wing government than the bunch of cunts we have now. 

The NHS is more likely to be run down and health care privatised than ever, rather than benefitting from money saved by not being in the EU.

This country has very probably set a precedent and the EU is likely to break up in the long term. 

I know plenty of people who voted leave and without exception they voted out for racist or xenophobic reasons.

I reckon the whole thing was swung by discourse around immigration.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 24, 2016)

mk12 said:


> Before Farage appeared on our tellies, nobody had any issues whatsoever with the free movement of labour.



A strange opinion. Not sure why you quoted me though - nothing to do with what I said.


----------



## Dr. Furface (Jun 24, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> You are correct - the out voters are not necessarily racist and their concerns need addressing. But they've given the racists a platform, a legitimacy.
> 
> And that's a fucking shame.


As I heard Will Self say the other day, not all Brexit voters are racist, but you can be sure that every racist voted for Brexit.

On another point, we should have done like the Scots in their referendum and also given the vote to the 16 and 17 year olds, as this vote was about their futures. If we'd done that then there may well have been a different outcome.


----------



## inva (Jun 24, 2016)

Dr. Furface said:


> As I heard Will Self say the other day, not all Brexit voters are racist, but you can be sure that every racist voted for Brexit.


Cameron's a racist, which way did he vote?


----------



## Wilf (Jun 24, 2016)

So, what are the chances of a 'deal' of some sort?  After a clear leave victory, there's no way Cameron can initiate a further discussion with the EU, so it would have to come from them - some kind of 'offer' around restrictions on free movement, making it clear Turkey will never get in etc.  Trouble is Corbyn would never back that, so it's not quite clear who the movers and shakers would be for getting another deal/moving to a 2nd referendum.


----------



## Coolfonz (Jun 24, 2016)

Fascinating stuff. 
1. Is this the end of Ukip? I mean they got what they wanted right?
2. A points based immigration system like we have for non-EU nationals? How? Including secure holding facilities, court cases, appeals, forced deportations for Germans, French, Spanish, Dutch citizens? I have to say to that, dream on. In which case how will caps on immigration work? You can live in the UK but not work? All seems a total non-starter. Or basically you can live and work but must take private medical insurance, private schooling etc? That could work. Stops working class/poorer people moving about.
3. Even lower interest rates for longer, pensioners (with any savings) fucked even more. More QE propping up assets, banks.
4. How long will sterling stay how low against the dollar? That is key. (The Euro as well but the Euro is down too). People will see higher petrol/diesel prices within days now, will knock though into other commodities, food.
5. More competitive currency devaluation?
6. And jobs, how many will go? That would be the best way to stop immigration, stick another 500,000 people on the dole, immigration will tumble.
7. Normally this would spike house prices, assets, like 2009-14 as foreign money piles into UK stuff, but will it this time? That will be interesting.

Some institutions are going to make untold dough though, un-told!! Big money will squeeeeeze sterling soon, roller coaster time hahahahah  Exciting


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 24, 2016)

Hmm. I don't think it's the end of UKIP. I think it's the beginning of a wider shift to the right and less tolerance for foreign people in the UK. Now that they have a legitimacy and an implied thumbs up from some on the left. Very worrying times.


----------



## mk12 (Jun 24, 2016)

> Is this the end of Ukip? I mean they got what they wanted right?



It will be harder for them to blame the EU for everything, but the reasons people vote for them will still exist (mass immigration etc).

EDIT: I don't mean mass immigration will still exist necessarily, but the fears and concerns that UKIP tapped in to will still exist.


----------



## mk12 (Jun 24, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> Hmm. I don't think it's the end of UKIP. I think it's the beginning of a wider shift to the right and less tolerance for foreign people in the UK. Now that they have a legitimacy and an implied thumbs up from some on the left. Very worrying times.


They don't have an 'implied thumbs up from some on the left' for fuck's sake. Have you not read any posts this morning?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 24, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> Fascinating stuff.
> 1. Is this the end of Ukip? I mean they got what they wanted right?


certainly the beginning of the end


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 24, 2016)

Wilf said:


> So, what are the chances of a 'deal' of some sort?  After a clear leave victory, there's no way Cameron can initiate a further discussion with the EU, so it would have to come from them - some kind of 'offer' around restrictions on free movement, making it clear Turkey will never get in etc.  Trouble is Corbyn would never back that, so it's not quite clear who the movers and shakers would be for getting another deal/moving to a 2nd referendum.




There won't be a second referendum.The UK is leaving the EU and no amount of worrying or whinging can change that now.

How the UK manages its exit and how the EU behaves towards us remains to be seen, but is highly unlikely to be as dire as predicted.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 24, 2016)

mk12 said:


> They don't have an 'implied thumbs up from some on the left' for fuck's sake. Have you not read any posts this morning?



Oceania is at war with Eurasia. Oceania has always been at war with Eurasia.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 24, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> There won't be a second referendum.The UK is leaving the EU and no amount of worrying or whinging can change that now.
> 
> How the UK manages its exit and how the EU behaves towards us remains to be seen, but is highly unlikely to be as dire as predicted.



Yeah, not dire at all if you're not from outide the UK.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 24, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> There won't be a second referendum.The UK is leaving the EU and no amount of worrying or whinging can change that now.
> 
> How the UK manages its exit and how the EU behaves towards us remains to be seen, but is highly unlikely to be as dire as predicted.


maybe worse than predicted: maybe better.

tbh there's a load of variables, e.g. do we stop within efta and the eea like norway? the verdict of the referendum raises more questions than it answers.


----------



## Dogsauce (Jun 24, 2016)

Any action on Immigration is as likely as the £350 million for the NHS, other than perhaps in charging EU migrants for the NHS (as a good practice run for charging all of us)

This is about stopping the EU interfering in the City (like the cap on Banker's bonuses) and about removing 'red tape' (potentially the Social Chapter) and environmental protections (suddenly the UK government that was trying to water down air quality standards doesn't have to bother anymore) which impose a cost on businesses.

All the stuff during the campaign was about a way of selling an exit to the 'proles'.  They're going to do precisely fuck all for workers, just more divide-and-rule bullshit and scrounger rhetoric.  Tories gonna Tory.


----------



## Teaboy (Jun 24, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> There won't be a second referendum.The UK is leaving the EU and no amount of worrying or whinging can change that now.
> 
> How the UK manages its exit and how the EU behaves towards us remains to be seen, but is highly unlikely to be as dire as predicted.



Yup.  It is what it is now.  Bring it on I reckon.


----------



## oryx (Jun 24, 2016)

Dogsauce said:


> Any action on Immigration is as likely as the £350 million for the NHS, other than perhaps in charging EU migrants for the NHS (as a good practice run for charging all of us)
> 
> This is about stopping the EU interfering in the City (like the cap on Banker's bonuses) and about removing 'red tape' (potentially the Social Chapter) and environmental protections (suddenly the UK government that was trying to water down air quality standards doesn't have to bother anymore) which impose a cost on businesses.
> 
> All the stuff during the campaign was about a way of selling an exit to the 'proles'.  They're going to do precisely fuck all for workers, just more divide-and-rule bullshit and scrounger rhetoric.  Tories gonna Tory.


Great post.


----------



## Wilf (Jun 24, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> There won't be a second referendum.The UK is leaving the EU and no amount of worrying or whinging can change that now.
> 
> How the UK manages its exit and how the EU behaves towards us remains to be seen, but is highly unlikely to be as dire as predicted.


I suspect every bit of what you've said there is correct, particularly as Cameron doesn't seem to have had a back up plan in terms of re-re-negotiations. However I suspect someone somewhere will be trying to invent a process to put it in place.  Mandelson comes to mind.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 24, 2016)

well fuck me sideways with a crowbar. Just woke up and the teles going mental.  Bye dave. Off to spend more time on the pig farm


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Jun 24, 2016)

On the World at One, Pascal Lamy, ex director of the WTO, suggested that the negotiation of the exit might produce such bad terms that Britain would decide to rejoin; the specific form the threat took was to the City of London's access to European financial markets. 

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## Libertad (Jun 24, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> well fuck me sideways with a crowbar. Just woke up and the teles going mental.  Bye dave. Off to spend more time on the pig farm



Welcome to New England Dottie, the future's shite.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 24, 2016)

Libertad said:


> Welcome to New England Dottie, the future's shite.


new england in america. this is nu england.


----------



## Kesher (Jun 24, 2016)

Louis MacNeice said:


> On the World at One, Pascal Lamy, ex director of the WTO, suggested that the negotiation of the exit might produce such bad terms that Britain would decide to rejoin; the specific form the threat took was to the City of London's access to European financial markets.
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice



Maybe we could have another referendum on whether to  confirm  the Brexit


----------



## TopCat (Jun 24, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> And what an insult, inferring that all working class support the brexit. Shocker.


Most did just that


----------



## 1%er (Jun 24, 2016)

Not long before you'll have to listen to Lord Farage making his maiden speech from your upper house 

So who will be next to hold an EU "remain or leave" referendum? My moneys on Holland followed by Denmark.


----------



## Falcon (Jun 24, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> This analysis doesn't feel right. What do you mean by "the system is contracting"? How on earth will debt denominated in a sovereign currency not get paid?


"The system is contracting”: Capital degrades and requires renewal. The capital formation process has ceased. Therefore the system is contracting.

The debt instrument is not currency. It is productive assets (oil companies, manufacturing facilities, etc), the previously rising productive output from which is now falling.


----------



## Falcon (Jun 24, 2016)

Brilliant argument from Sturgeon: how could an English government that left the EU under the smokescreen of “taking control” deny a Scottish referendum undertaken without its permission?

Nicola Sturgeon announces second Scottish independence referendum plan


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 24, 2016)

Libertad said:


> Welcome to New England Dottie, the future's shite.


I was just looking for another girl


----------



## Wilf (Jun 24, 2016)

Fucking hell, for once a really historic night: out of the eu, Cameron gone, probable challenge to corbyn, probable departure of Scotland... Anyway, at least we'll be able to smoke in pubs again.


----------



## editor (Jun 24, 2016)

And so it begins



*not that I care much for bankers in general, but jobs is jobs


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 24, 2016)

Wilf said:


> Fucking hell, for once a really historic night: out of the eu, Cameron gone, probable challenge to corbyn, probable departure of Scotland... Anyway, at least we'll be able to smoke in pubs again.


if the right of the labour party succesfully oust Corbz the three quidders and the wider party are going to be massively hacked off. Landslide win in his election and they are using this to try and fuck him off out of it?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 24, 2016)

editor said:


> And so it begins
> 
> 
> 
> *not that I care much for bankers in general, but jobs is jobs



The up-side.

Jobs isn't jobs. These fuckers price out the rest of us in London. The city would be a better place without The City.


----------



## Wilf (Jun 24, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> if the right of the labour party succesfully oust Corbz the three quidders and the wider party are going to be massively hacked off. Landslide win in his election and they are using this to try and fuck him off out of it?


I suspect they'll do exactly that - and in doing so lose the opportunity labour has to try and set the agenda in this new world.


----------



## editor (Jun 24, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> The up-side.
> 
> Jobs isn't jobs. These fuckers price out the rest of us in London. The city would be a better place without The City.


How about all the ancillary jobs that go with a big office? You know, cleaners, canteen staff, office managers, security staff etc and all the local businesses that are dependent on the trade from office workers? Fuck them too?


----------



## 2hats (Jun 24, 2016)

Spain calls for joint control of Gibraltar...


> The Spanish government has called for joint sovereignty over Gibraltar in the wake of the UK's vote to leave the EU. The British overseas territory of 30,000 voted overwhelmingly for remain, with 95.9% opting to stay in the union.
> 
> "The Spanish flag on the Rock is much closer than before," Spain's acting Foreign Minister Jose Manuel Garcia-Margallo said on Friday. In a radio interview, Mr Garcia-Margallo said: "It's a complete change of outlook that opens up new possibilities on Gibraltar not seen for a very long time. "I hope the formula of co-sovereignty - to be clear, the Spanish flag on the Rock - is much closer than before."


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 24, 2016)

editor said:


> How about all the ancillary jobs that go with a big office? You know, cleaners, canteen staff, office managers, security staff etc and all the local businesses that are dependent on the trade from office workers? Fuck them too?


What about all the businesses that are pushed out of London/out of business by the extortionate rent increases? We're talking a relatively small number of highly paid people who take far more to themselves than is moral and make everything that bit harder for everyone else in the process.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 24, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> if the right of the labour party succesfully oust Corbz the three quidders and the wider party are going to be massively hacked off. Landslide win in his election and they are using this to try and fuck him off out of it?


What's to stop them voting for him again if a vote happens?


----------



## cybertect (Jun 24, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> What's to stop them voting for him again if a vote happens?



Nothing, I believe.


----------



## tommers (Jun 24, 2016)

cybertect said:


> Nothing, I believe.


There is talk of him not being on the ballot.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 24, 2016)

Does this mean there'll be a property/rent crash? Here's hoping


----------



## rubbershoes (Jun 24, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> The up-side.
> 
> Jobs isn't jobs. These fuckers price out the rest of us in London. The city would be a better place without The City.



Foreign investment in London property pushes up prices as much as city workers do


----------



## Nine Bob Note (Jun 24, 2016)

Wilf said:


> Anyway, at least we'll be able to smoke in pubs again.



Well, at £8 a pack. No more weekend trips to Malaga with a couple of empty suitcases.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jun 24, 2016)

oryx said:


> A huge victory for the right and far right.
> 
> No-one will benefit from this. Ordinary people certainly won't. There will be massive financial uncertainty (it might come as a surprise to some of you on here that ordinary people have pensions, savings and mortgages) and the likelihood of an even more right wing government than the bunch of cunts we have now.
> 
> ...



I've had messages today from friends who've been verbally assaulted, told to pack their bags etc it's England for the English now. This isn't a decision that benifits non white people like me...


.


----------



## chilango (Jun 24, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> Does this mean there'll be a property/rent crash? Here's hoping



Depends where you live?


----------



## rubbershoes (Jun 24, 2016)

Dogsauce said:


> Any action on Immigration is as likely as the £350 million for the NHS, other than perhaps in charging EU migrants for the NHS (as a good practice run for charging all of us)
> 
> This is about stopping the EU interfering in the City (like the cap on Banker's bonuses) and about removing 'red tape' (potentially the Social Chapter) and environmental protections (suddenly the UK government that was trying to water down air quality standards doesn't have to bother anymore) which impose a cost on businesses.
> 
> All the stuff during the campaign was about a way of selling an exit to the 'proles'.  They're going to do precisely fuck all for workers, just more divide-and-rule bullshit and scrounger rhetoric.  Tories gonna Tory.



Amen to that


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jun 24, 2016)

Falcon said:


> Brilliant argument from Sturgeon: how could an English government that left the EU under the smokescreen of “taking control” deny a Scottish referendum undertaken without its permission?
> 
> Nicola Sturgeon announces second Scottish independence referendum plan



Yup that was a fantastic statement from her, think Scotland will be independent within 24 months.


.


----------



## cybertect (Jun 24, 2016)

tommers said:


> There is talk of him not being on the ballot.



True, that would present a problem for people who wanted to vote for him. He would need to muster 35 or so MPs to get him on the ballot.


----------



## cybertect (Jun 24, 2016)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Yup that was a fantastic statement from her, think Scotland will be independent within 24 months




Intrigued by this




			
				Nicola Sturgeon said:
			
		

> “I have also spoken this morning with [London] mayor Sadiq Khan and he is clear that he shares this objective for London, so there is clear common cause between us.”


----------



## rubbershoes (Jun 24, 2016)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Yup that was a fantastic statement from her, think Scotland will be independent within 24 months.



Scottish independence is an open goal.

Or a goal with a Scottish goalie


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 24, 2016)

cybertect said:


> Intrigued by this


is sadiq really suggesting London becomes a city-statelet. mental


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 24, 2016)

tommers said:


> There is talk of him not being on the ballot.


There isn't even a ballot for him to be on and may never be. See the corbyn thread.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 24, 2016)

Kid_Eternity said:


> I've had messages today from friends who've been verbally assaulted, told to pack their bags etc it's England for the English now. This isn't a decision that benifits non white people like me...
> 
> 
> .


Non white eh. Come on krtek, be consistent.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 24, 2016)

Kid_Eternity said:


> I've had messages today from friends who've been verbally assaulted, told to pack their bags etc it's England for the English now. This isn't a decision that benifits non white people like me...
> 
> 
> .


Wasn't there the same sort of talk when Boris became Mayor?


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 24, 2016)

chilango said:


> Depends where you live?


London of course. Where else exists?


----------



## comrade spurski (Jun 24, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> You are correct - the out voters are not necessarily racist and their concerns need addressing. But they've given the racists a platform, a legitimacy.
> 
> And that's a fucking shame.



Look mate...I did not say they gave the racists a platform. People have a right to vote  out ... the are sound reasons for doing so. Those responsible for racism are the racists and those who spread and create racist arguments and policies.
I just wish the result was different and hope my fears are unfounded.
I do not wish my views to be used in your war of words with other people on here cos none of that interests me


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 24, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> is sadiq really suggesting London becomes a city-statelet. mental




The day just gets weirder and weirder.

Saw this last night and thought of you, one of the best ones they've had in ages: Racist nan definitely going to bother


----------



## Anju (Jun 24, 2016)

This is interesting and towards the end is an example of how the debate should have been handled.

Divided borough: How Greenwich voted in the the EU referendum


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 24, 2016)

come Scottish referendum ... vote remain but being irish

if this leads up to the break up of  united kingdom its not all bad


----------



## Wilf (Jun 24, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> is sadiq really suggesting London becomes a city-statelet. mental


Easy, just put border posts round the congestion charging zone.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 24, 2016)

Wilf said:


> Easy, just put border posts round the congestion charging zone.


m25 is motorway- deep foundations. They could build a wall on it


----------



## Wilf (Jun 24, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> m25 is motorway- deep foundations. They could build a wall on it


(((White walkers)))


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 24, 2016)

London is pretty much an independent city state anyway. That petition is so stupid and smug


----------



## hot air baboon (Jun 24, 2016)

Best of three anyone?


----------



## Reiabuzz (Jun 24, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> London is pretty much an independent city state anyway. That petition is so stupid and smug



If we were independent we'd still be in Europe instead of facing another recession..

I guess the irony is that it won't actually hit London as much as the regions that did vote for Gove/Farage's mental plan


----------



## editor (Jun 24, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> What about all the businesses that are pushed out of London/out of business by the extortionate rent increases? We're talking a relatively small number of highly paid people who take far more to themselves than is moral and make everything that bit harder for everyone else in the process.


That's never going to change overnight, loathsome though it is, but what will change is that a lot of local people will lose their jobs and a lot of local small businesses will also suffer. I don't think there's anything to celebrate there.


----------



## sim667 (Jun 24, 2016)

2hats said:


> *Billion*.


Oops...


----------



## sim667 (Jun 24, 2016)

free spirit said:


> and will that be enough?


Of course not.


----------



## chilango (Jun 24, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> London of course. Where else exists?



Then, no, you're not gonna get a house price crash. Sorry.


----------



## Wilf (Jun 24, 2016)

Joshua Rozenberg on the significance of Cameron not triggering the the article 50 (allows time for further negotiations, which could be put to a general election). I suspect he's grasping at straws. There's a _legal_ route to further negotiations, but it's unlikely to become a political reality:
https://www.theguardian.com/comment...cle-50-lisbon-treaty-referendum-david-Cameron

Edit - link doesn't seem to be working, but the article is there on the grauniad site


----------



## no-no (Jun 24, 2016)

mojo pixy said:


> Fascists across Europe are congratulating us now. Ugh.


and Tony Benns giving you a back slap from beyond the grave, so fucking what?


----------



## mauvais (Jun 24, 2016)

Wilf said:


> Joshua Rozenberg on the significance of Cameron not triggering the the article 50 (allows time for further negotiations, which could be put to a general election). I suspect he's grasping at straws. There's a _legal_ route to further negotiations, but it's unlikely to become a political reality:
> https://www.theguardian.com/comment...cle-50-lisbon-treaty-referendum-david-Cameron
> 
> Edit - link doesn't seem to be working, but the article is there on the grauniad site


Meanwhile the EU are getting lawyers to look at speeding up our exit, to avoid a situation where "a whole continent is taken hostage because of an internal fight in the Tory party" (Schulz, president of EU parliament)


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 24, 2016)

mauvais said:


> Meanwhile the EU are getting lawyers to look at speeding up our exit, to avoid a situation where "a whole continent is taken hostage because of an internal fight in the Tory party" (Schulz, president of EU parliament)


yeh well good luck with that.
i see parliament due to sit on monday, which will be interesting. but they're buggering off on their hols on 21/7.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 24, 2016)

mauvais said:


> Meanwhile the EU are getting lawyers to look at speeding up our exit, to avoid a situation where "a whole continent is taken hostage because of an internal fight in the Tory party" (Schulz, president of EU parliament)


Oh look, the EU central leadership looking to break the articles of the treaty _it _imposed whenever _it _feels like it.


----------



## mauvais (Jun 24, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh well good luck with that.
> 
> when's parliament next scheduled to sit?


Which one? Ours, Monday.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 24, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Oh look, the EU central leadership looking to break the articles of the treaty _it _imposed whenever _it _feels like it.


fail at the first hurdle.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 24, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh well good luck with that.
> i see parliament due to sit on monday, which will be interesting. but they're buggering off on their hols on 21/7.





mauvais said:


> Which one? Ours, Monday.


----------



## Sprocket. (Jun 24, 2016)

Reiabuzz said:


> I guess the irony is that it won't actually hit London as much as the regions that did vote for Gove/Farage's mental plan



Sadly though, we didn't all vote for it either.
Westminster and the London administration left these deprived, scrap heap bound communities to the wolves that spew out division and hate. The Labour Party just relied for decades on voters support and ignored people's very real fears.
Out of a workforce of forty, there are only five of us voted to remain. The racist shite I have had to listen to for ten years from former miners and steelworkers has made me ill.
David Cameron is as much to blame.


----------



## mauvais (Jun 24, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Oh look, the EU central leadership looking to break the articles of the treaty _it _imposed whenever _it _feels like it.


_That_'s the complaint? It's like moaning that your wife packed her bags and left after you'd told her it was over but before you'd got her to sign the divorce papers.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 24, 2016)

mauvais said:


> _That_'s the complaint? It's like moaning that your wife packed her bags and left after you'd told her it was over but before you'd got her to sign the divorce papers.


What? I think imposing a treaty with a section that specifies how leaving the union is to happen then trying to change the rules after someone exercises their right to leave under the terms of the treaty is indicative of the undemocratic nature of the EU. You just seem to think this is a side thing and so can be dismissed by inept similie. I agree, it probably is unimportant for you and a lot of the people who voted remain. It's also one reason why you lost.


----------



## no-no (Jun 24, 2016)

free spirit said:


> there's a thread on that, unfortunately it seems there is no plan for what happens when their protest vote actually helps to usher in the UK right's wet dreams version of reality.
> 
> They spend years / decades telling everyone else how shit they are.... time to face their own medicine, this is what they campaigned for, so they need to own their victory and come up with a plan for dealing with the consequences sharpish IMO.



What was the plan for reigning in the EU's austerity measures had we stayed in? Same ones the Greeks tried?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 24, 2016)

no-no said:


> What was the plan for reigning in the EU's austerity measures had we stayed in? Same ones the Greeks tried?


ruling or restraining?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 24, 2016)

People need to sleep....WTAF? 



> *EU Referendum: Leave Cornwall Demands Government Replaces EU Millions*
> 
> The leader of Cornwall Council has demanded the UK Government replaces the £60million a year of EU support it will lose as a result of the Brexit vote.
> 
> ...


EU Referendum: Leave Cornwall Demands Government Replaces EU Millions


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 24, 2016)

What's wrong with that?


----------



## no-no (Jun 24, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> ruling or restraining?



Whatever's effective, if there is/was a plan I've not seen it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 24, 2016)

no-no said:


> Whatever's effective, if there is/was a plan I've not seen it.


no reigning ruling or reining restraining?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 24, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> People need to sleep....WTAF?
> 
> 
> EU Referendum: Leave Cornwall Demands Government Replaces EU Millions


why can't they get some of the money at least from e.g. the duchy of cornwall?


----------



## no-no (Jun 24, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> no reigning ruling or reining restraining?



ah! reining!


----------



## killer b (Jun 24, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> What's wrong with that?


It's been confusing me all day too. a) the ellision of Cornwall Council with the voters of Cornwall, and b) the idea that all the EU grant money is from the EU, not a part of the money the UK government pays to the EU, given back to the country with a ringfence.


----------



## mauvais (Jun 24, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> What? I think imposing a treaty with a section that specifies how leaving the union is to happen then trying to change the rules after someone exercises their right to leave under the terms of the treaty is indicative of the undemocratic nature of the EU. You just seem to think this is a side thing and so can be dismissed by inept similie. I agree, it probably is unimportant for you and a lot of the people who voted remain. It's also one reason why you lost.


Is it balls. Noone but self-hating politics geeks ever gave a noteworthy, voteworthy fuck about the implementation of Article 50 or anything remotely like it. The EU is as undemocratic or not as it ever was with or without this, a criticism that amounts to belated and yet simultaneously premature point scoring.

Noone on earth is going to be surprised by the EU reaction. No country, or any entity at all, certainly not Britain were it disadvantaged, would suffer this existentially threatening hold music for any longer that it had to. The event alone might bring the debt crisis back to its full ferocity. Whether they can actually do anything regards accelerating matters remains to be seen.

When the EU properly and tangibly trashes Britain in whatever way it can, again entirely predictably and not entirely unjustifiably, then you might have a point.


----------



## Nine Bob Note (Jun 24, 2016)

hot air baboon said:


> Best of three anyone?









You got me stumped.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 24, 2016)

Nine Bob Note said:


> You got me stumped.







add in farage and a couple more  and you've a full house


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 24, 2016)

mauvais said:


> Is it balls. Noone but self-hating politics geeks ever gave a noteworthy, voteworthy fuck about the implementation of Article 50 or anything remotely like it. The EU is as undemocratic or not as it ever was with or without this, a criticism that amounts to belated and yet simultaneously premature point scoring.
> 
> Noone on earth is going to be surprised by the EU reaction. No country, or any entity at all, certainly not Britain were it disadvantaged, would suffer this existentially threatening hold music for any longer that it had to. The event alone might bring the debt crisis back to its full ferocity. Whether they can actually do anything regards accelerating matters remains to be seen.
> 
> When the EU properly and tangibly trashes Britain in whatever way it can, again entirely predictably and not entirely unjustifiably, then you might have a point.


I said it was indicative of wider contempt for democratic structures process and accountability in the EU central leadership. It is. Whether someone moaned about the particular way in which one particular example of this undemocratic disdain happened before it happened is exactly the what 'belated and yet simultaneously premature point scoring' is. And also irrelevant.

It's ok, i get. You're prepared to swallow this and other such things. Others aren't. Again, it's one large part of why you lost.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 24, 2016)

comrade spurski said:


> Look mate...I did not say they gave the racists a platform. People have a right to vote  out ... the are sound reasons for doing so. Those responsible for racism are the racists and those who spread and create racist arguments and policies.
> I just wish the result was different and hope my fears are unfounded.
> I do not wish my views to be used in your war of words with other people on here cos none of that interests me



The vote has legitimised racism. The UK is finished; which is the only good thing to come out of the whole sorry affair.


----------



## Dogsauce (Jun 24, 2016)

The guy in blue celebrating on the front cover of the Sun is C18


----------



## Ole (Jun 24, 2016)

How the United Kingdom voted on Thursday... and why - Lord Ashcroft Polls

Very interesting reading.


----------



## campanula (Jun 24, 2016)

Within the Cambridge bubble, the (very few) open leavers have, to a large extent, concentrated on the lack of democratic process and a real urge to derail the opportunistic housing investment in the area. My daughter though, in her rural Norfolk constituency, has a very different take on it...with immigration high on the agenda, but mainly the grinding poverty of east Norfolk - a huge wealth disparity there with landowners and farmers in hugely in favour of remaining (all that cheap eastern european seasonal work) and almost everyone else keen to leave, particularly since flood defences have also been largely ignored.
We are, at the moment, not on speaking terms (the words Quisling and capitulator have been flung about).


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 24, 2016)

Ole said:


> How the United Kingdom voted on Thursday... and why - Lord Ashcroft Polls
> 
> Very interesting reading.



It was a depressing poll in a multitude of ways, this being one of them. Under-35s, surely those most under 'threat' from _immigrants taking our jobs_, voted 2:1 to stay. 

Stupid young people, eh?


----------



## 2hats (Jun 24, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> add in farage and a couple more  and you've a full house


Do some packs come with more than two jokers?


----------



## Wilf (Jun 24, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> The vote has legitimised racism. The UK is finished; which is the only good thing to come out of the whole sorry affair.


I think you've got this the wrong way round. People voted leave for all kinds of reasons and it would be very one eyed to deny racism and xenophobia was in the mix. But what are you suggesting - that a lid should be kept on it? Where would that lead?  The referendum didn't cause racism, being fucked over by neo-liberals at home and abroad is what caused the divisions.  Being fucked over is the issue.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 24, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> The vote has legitimised racism.



How the hell has it legitimised racism? Most people who voted leave are not racist. Racists should, and will, continue to be called out by non-racists. That battle would continue whatever the referendum result.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 24, 2016)

2hats said:


> Do some packs come with more than two jokers?


doesn't matter, the scaffold will take them all.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 24, 2016)

Dogsauce said:


> The guy in blue celebrating on the front cover of the Sun is C18


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 24, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> How the hell has it legitimised racism? Most people who voted leave are not racist. Racists should, and will, continue to be called out by non-racists. That battle would continue whatever the referendum result.



They've legitimised UKIP. Of course not all the leave voters are racist but you can be damn sure that all the racists voted to leave.


----------



## hot air baboon (Jun 24, 2016)

....do we call it B-Day...for Brexit Day & on the assumption the use of the bidets in No.10 must have been quite extensive over the last 12 hours or so...


----------



## 1%er (Jun 24, 2016)

mauvais said:


> Meanwhile the EU are getting lawyers to look at speeding up our exit, to avoid a situation where "a whole continent is taken hostage because of an internal fight in the Tory party" (Schulz, president of EU parliament)


According to EU lawyers interviewed on Bloomberg news, it is only the country that decides to leave which can trigger Article 50 the other EU countries can not start the process, they went on to say there are so many flaws and gaps in the way Article 50 is written, it only covers how an EU negotiator is selected and the time limit (which is 2 years but can be extended by agreement).


----------



## YouSir (Jun 24, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> They've legitimised UKIP. Of course not all the leave voters are racist but you can be damn sure that all the racists voted to leave.



A few million votes legitimized UKIP.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 24, 2016)

1%er said:


> According to EU lawyers interviewed on Bloomberg news, it is only the country that decides to leave which can trigger Article 50 the other EU countries can not start the process, they went on to say there are so many flaws and gaps in the way Article 50 is written, it only covers how an EU negotiator is selected and the time limit (which is 2 years but can be extended by agreement).


Of course it is, how else could it possibly work. Which is why they have to formally wait on the new tory leader. They have nothing to try to speed up until the thing is triggered.


----------



## Fingers (Jun 24, 2016)

My friend's mother on Facebook stated she voted leave because 'English people are not allowed to fly the Union Flag because of foreigners'.

If I did not know it was her mother, I would have torn her a new one for being such a dick.

I repeatably ask her if she is sure she is really her mother.

She then proudly stated that the Union Flag is flying at her place of work today, presumably as it has for a long time.


----------



## 1%er (Jun 24, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Of course it is, how else could it possibly work. Which is why they have to formally wait on the new tory leader. They have nothing to speed up until the thing is triggered.


Yes that it why I answered the point made "Meanwhile the EU are getting lawyers to look at speeding up our exit".


----------



## no-no (Jun 24, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> They've legitimised UKIP. Of course not all the leave voters are racist but you can be damn sure that all the racists voted to leave.



I'm not sure what UKIP have left now they've had their way, even their name is redundant now. tbh, it'll be nice if they carry on splitting the tory vote.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 24, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> why can't they get some of the money at least from e.g. the duchy of cornwall?



and second home owners


----------



## weltweit (Jun 24, 2016)

Ole said:


> How the United Kingdom voted on Thursday... and why - Lord Ashcroft Polls
> 
> Very interesting reading.


Interesting graphic, basically young people got shafted!


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 24, 2016)

no-no said:


> I'm not sure what UKIP have left now they've had their way, even their name is redundant now. tbh, it'll be nice if they carry on splitting the tory vote.



Farage and his merry band enjoy the limelight too much. And as has been pointed out to me numerous times, there is a demographic that embrace UKIP.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 24, 2016)

two sheds said:


> and second home owners


Or the money that the workers make for business. Is it really so odd for regions to get money from national states given well, that this is where the state coffers come from? I really don't get why that was posted.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 24, 2016)

weltweit said:


> Interesting graphic, basically young people got shafted!


i do not know how you can say that when you don't know what class they're from. many of them will come from e.g. a/b, and i think that seeing a voting breakdown by class then age would be informative.


----------



## killer b (Jun 24, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Or the money that the workers make for business. Is it really so odd for regions to get money from national states given well, that this is where the state coffers come from? I really don't get why that was posted.


People have been posting it all day. it's 'ironic', apparently.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 24, 2016)

weltweit said:


> Interesting graphic, basically young people got shafted!


Shafted? By who? When? What was the class crossbreak for the young?


----------



## camouflage (Jun 24, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> They've legitimised UKIP. Of course not all the leave voters are racist but you can be damn sure that all the racists voted to leave.



It's possible that some racists, believing in a Greater White European Fortress Reich... actually voted Remain.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 24, 2016)

killer b said:


> People have been posting it all day. it's 'ironic', apparently.


Fuck you danny la rouge, fuck you to connaught.


----------



## weltweit (Jun 24, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> i do not know how you can say that when you don't know what class they're from. many of them will come from e.g. a/b, and i think that seeing a voting breakdown by class then age would be informative.





butchersapron said:


> Shafted? By who? When? What was the class crossbreak for the young?



The graphic was pretty clear that young people, as a group, voted decisively to remain and older people voted to leave. There is a class breakdown at the bottom of the categories but each age category is not broken down by class no.


----------



## Reiabuzz (Jun 24, 2016)

Well done guys. You can judge someone by their mates.

European far right hails Brexit vote


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 24, 2016)

weltweit said:


> The graphic was pretty clear that young people, as a group, voted decisively to remain and older people voted to leave. There is a class breakdown at the bottom of the categories but each age category is not broken down by class no.


Do you know what shafted means? Daft term to use.

And yes, on it's own it tells us one thing and one thing only. That's not very much at all though.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 24, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> It was a depressing poll in a multitude of ways, this being one of them. Under-35s, surely those most under 'threat' from _immigrants taking our jobs_, voted 2:1 to stay.
> 
> Stupid young people, eh?





weltweit said:


> Interesting graphic, basically young people got shafted!



As did the AB occupational background


----------



## chilango (Jun 24, 2016)

no-no said:


> I'm not sure what UKIP have left now they've had their way, even their name is redundant now. tbh, it'll be nice if they carry on splitting the tory vote.



Carrying on filling the vacuum left behind by Labour's retreat into middle England.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 24, 2016)

Reiabuzz said:


> Well done guys. You can judge someone by their mates.
> 
> European far right hails Brexit vote


Any chance of replying to my post from this morning?

Btw, thanks for the sophistication you've brought to this discussion. I'm a bit hmmm because if some joker tried to invent the perfect smug remainer they'd invent you. It's all too perfect.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 24, 2016)

Reiabuzz said:


> Well done guys. You can judge someone by their mates.
> 
> European far right hails Brexit vote



And in what way would any of those voting leave , apart from those who are far right, regard these groups as their mates?


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 24, 2016)

The39thStep said:


> As did the AB occupational background


Bingo! Shafted.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 24, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Bingo! Shafted.


Sure I read somewhere about a very high student vote from that age group


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 24, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> They've legitimised UKIP. Of course not all the leave voters are racist but you can be damn sure that all the racists voted to leave.



Give me a practical definition of what 'legitimised' means in this context. The second sentence is meaningless, BTW.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 24, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Give me a practical definition of what 'legitimised' means in this context. The second sentence is meaningless, BTW.



Its two fingers us to us immigrants who fucking made your country "great", that's what it is.

Fucking shit hole.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 24, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> Its two fingers us to us immigrants who fucking made your country "great", that's what it is.
> 
> Fucking shit hole.



Immigrants did more than that. They gave birth to me! But don't let inconvenient facts get in the way of your stereotyping of all Leave supporters as thick racists and little englanders. Anyway, how about addressing the points I made in my last post?


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 24, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> Its two fingers us to us immigrants who fucking made your country "great", that's what it is.
> 
> Fucking shit hole.


oh the irony


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 24, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Immigrants did more than that. They gave birth to me! But don't let inconvenient facts get in the way of your stereotyping of all Leave supporters as thick racists and little englanders. Anyway, how about addressing the points I made in my last post.



I am not stereotyping all Leave supporters as thick racists and little englanders. But there are certainly a sizeable number of them.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 24, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> oh the irony



Fuck your irony.


----------



## Ole (Jun 24, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> Its two fingers us to us immigrants who fucking made your country "great", that's what it is.
> 
> Fucking shit hole.


You cheeky cunt. Don't go speaking for all immigrants while you're at it.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 24, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> Fuck your irony.


now then, no need to be so rude.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 24, 2016)

Ole said:


> You cheeky cunt. Don't go speaking for all immigrants while you're at it.



ah, the hooligan apologist. Fuck you, too.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 24, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> I am not stereotyping all Leave supporters as thick racists and little englanders. But there are certainly a sizeable number of them.



Answer my points. What do you even mean by 'legitimising' UKIP?


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 24, 2016)

calm down fella. you're having a tantrum


----------



## editor (Jun 24, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> Just what I thought. Cowardly white little englander. Post another youtube link, brave lad. Pickman might lick your knob cheese off for you again.
> Me; I'm a bit more choosy. I'd rather rim fascist Nigel, at least he speaks his mind.


Overstepping the mark here. Please start up Operation Neck Wind In.


----------



## mauvais (Jun 24, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> I said it was indicative of wider contempt for democratic structures process and accountability in the EU central leadership. It is. Whether someone moaned about the particular way in which one particular example of this undemocratic disdain happened before it happened is exactly the what 'belated and yet simultaneously premature point scoring' is. And also irrelevant.
> 
> It's ok, i get. You're prepared to swallow this and other such things. Others aren't. Again, it's one large part of why you lost.


Unless you can show that a nuanced Lexit was a significant component in 'my' loss (like I'd forgotten it's happened), which I doubt, in reality most voters have no idea whether the EU is meaningfully democratic or not - barely how it works or what it is at all. Only a caricature, for better or worse. And no, not because they're all stupid proles, before we wade through that. This exit rhetoric might well be indicative of its character, but it's fine detail in a cloud of fog that almost noone is peering into. So it was never a 'large part' of Brexit, was it.

None of that was the point anyway, which was - not particularly importantly - that it's somewhat pointless to complain about the process by which you're to be ejected from a club that you chose to resign from because you didn't like its processes.

Especially when that's the least of the troubles your divorcing partner might wreak upon you.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 24, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> Fuck off white boy.



Oh my! I only just noticed this one.


----------



## inva (Jun 24, 2016)

mauvais said:


> Unless you can show that a nuanced Lexit was a significant component in 'my' loss (like I'd forgotten it's happened), which I doubt, in reality most voters have no idea whether the EU is meaningfully democratic or not - barely how it works or what it is at all. Only a caricature, for better or worse. And no, not because they're all stupid proles, before we wade through that. This exit rhetoric might well be indicative of its character, but it's fine detail in a cloud of fog that almost noone is peering into. So it was never a 'large part' of Brexit, was it.
> 
> None of that was the point anyway, which was - not particularly importantly - that it's somewhat pointless to complain about the process by which you're to be ejected from a club that you chose to resign from because you didn't like its processes.


I reckon most people know the eu's not democratic, I've heard it from loads of people that it's part of why they were voting leave


----------



## danny la rouge (Jun 24, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Fuck you danny la rouge, fuck you to connaught.


Not sure what I've done, but it sounds fun. So count me in.


----------



## mauvais (Jun 24, 2016)

inva said:


> I reckon most people know the eu's not democratic, I've heard it from loads of people that it's part of why they were voting leave


Of course. But not how or why.


----------



## inva (Jun 24, 2016)

mauvais said:


> Of course. But not how or why.


why because they rightly didn't feel it represented or listened to them or that they had any means to change it. I think the same, personally.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 24, 2016)

mauvais said:


> Unless you can show that a nuanced Lexit was a significant component in 'my' loss (like I'd forgotten it's happened), which I doubt, in reality most voters have no idea whether the EU is meaningfully democratic or not - barely how it works or what it is at all. Only a caricature, for better or worse. And no, not because they're all stupid proles, before we wade through that. This exit rhetoric might well be indicative of its character, but it's fine detail in a cloud of fog that almost noone is peering into. So it was never a 'large part' of Brexit, was it.
> 
> None of that was the point anyway, which was - not particularly importantly - that it's somewhat pointless to complain about the process by which you're to be ejected from a club that you chose to resign from because you didn't like its processes.
> 
> Especially when that's the least of the troubles your divorcing partner might wreak upon you.


I didn't mention a lexit. A revulsion at a pompous high-minded defence of democratic ideals that is breached whenever the central leadership decides it is expedient to do so is repugnant to many not just on the left. Maybe not so to post-ideologists such as yourself though.

Of course you don't need to know which specific articles of treaties are being abrogated at the whim of those who wrote them and still control the eu to recognise that it's anti-democratic, anti-accountability. Nor is highlighting one such abrogation when it happens an example of ignorance. (Do you know the exact details of each article that render the eu democratic or non-democratic? I'd guess not, as democracy doesn't seem to be a thing you're that bothered about).

Again, all this is a big factor in why you lost.


----------



## free spirit (Jun 24, 2016)

inva said:


> I reckon most people know the eu's not democratic, I've heard it from loads of people that it's part of why they were voting leave


it's odd that only 36% could be arsed to vote in the actual democratic european parliament elections if they're so concerned about EU democracy.


----------



## emanymton (Jun 24, 2016)

Boris Johnson says 'no need for haste' to start EU exit negotiations

I bet. I don't think he ever actually wanted to leave. He has tried to play both sides of the tory party and I think he was banking on a remain win,  allowing him to get the support of the exit tories while getting the result he wanted. I hope he's as fucked of with the result as Cameron and Osborne.


----------



## emanymton (Jun 24, 2016)

free spirit said:


> it's odd that only 36% could be arsed to vote in the actual democratic european parliament elections if they're so concerned about EU democracy.


Urmm no it makes perfect sense actually.


----------



## free spirit (Jun 24, 2016)

dp


----------



## free spirit (Jun 24, 2016)

emanymton said:


> Urmm no it makes perfect sense actually.


how?


----------



## killer b (Jun 24, 2016)

free spirit said:


> it's odd that only 36% could be arsed to vote in the actual democratic european parliament elections if they're so concerned about EU democracy.


Why would you bother voting in an election for a body you believe to be undemocratic?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 24, 2016)

free spirit said:


> it's odd that only 36% could be arsed to vote in the actual democratic european parliament elections if they're so concerned about EU democracy.


No, I expect it's a recognition of the lack of democracy.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Jun 24, 2016)

free spirit said:


> it's odd that only 36% could be arsed to vote in the actual democratic european parliament elections if they're so concerned about EU democracy.



I'm sure you know about the difference between the Parliament and the 
Commission so why slide together the voting system for MEPs and the operation of the EU as an institution under the single heading of democratic?

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## emanymton (Jun 24, 2016)

free spirit said:


> how?


What killer b said


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 24, 2016)

free spirit said:


> how?


Why not engage brain before posting?


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 24, 2016)

mauvais said:


> Of course. But not how or why.



Tony Benn's test for democracy was pretty spot on.



> “The House will forgive me for quoting five democratic questions that I have developed during my life. If one meets a powerful person--Rupert Murdoch, perhaps, or Joe Stalin or Hitler--one can ask five questions: what power do you have; where did you get it; in whose interests do you exercise it; to whom are you accountable; and, how can we get rid of you? Anyone who cannot answer the last of those questions does not live in a democratic system.”



People looking at the EU institutions, even if they aren't geeks when it comes to constitutional minutiae, can see clearly that they lack democracy.


----------



## killer b (Jun 24, 2016)

I mean, really. What the fuck?


----------



## starfish (Jun 24, 2016)

Apols if already posted. Not gone through thread. Too depressing.


----------



## mauvais (Jun 24, 2016)

"What is the EU?" is leading UK Google searches at the moment.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 24, 2016)

emanymton said:


> Urmm no it makes perfect sense actually.


Bingo.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Jun 24, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> People looking at the EU institutions, even if they aren't geeks when it comes to constitutional minutiae, can see clearly that they lack democracy.



You can and I can and I dare say that all of us on these boards can but not the ill informed masses huddled outside the M25.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## free spirit (Jun 24, 2016)

Louis MacNeice said:


> I'm sure you know about the difference between the Parliament and the
> Commission so why slide together the voting system for MEPs and the operation of the EU as an institution under the single heading of democratic?
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice


I do. I'm sure you also know that the commission can't pass any laws itself, the parliament and council of ministers have to do that, and that the various countries governments appoint the commissioners.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 24, 2016)

free spirit said:


> I do. I'm sure you also know that the commission can't pass any laws itself, the parliament and council of ministers have to do that, and that the various countries governments appoint the commissioners.


Where do the laws start their journey?


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 24, 2016)

free spirit said:


> I do. I'm sure you also know that the commission can't pass any laws itself, the parliament and council of ministers have to do that, and that the various countries governments appoint the commissioners.


Ah an unelected body that can only propose laws most of which become law. Right. Got it.

Could you think of any other way to do that? Maybe, something like elected bodies proposing the laws? And maybe voting on them? Too dangerous?


----------



## elbows (Jun 24, 2016)

On the subject of Europe and democracy, I remember being completely blindsided when I first learnt of the Council of Europe via the internet many years ago now, when I still felt young and naive. I'd never even heard of the thing before which was mostly what I found disturbing, and since then I can think of few occasions where I read much about it in the press. Rarely do the powers that be deem to educate us about this other European institution, I wonder if that will change at all now.


----------



## free spirit (Jun 24, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Ah an unelected body that can only propose laws most of which become law. Right. Got it.
> 
> Could you think of any other way to do that? Maybe, something like elected bodies proposing the laws? And maybe voting on them? Too dangerous?


we also don't elect the UK cabinet (or prime minister really) the prime minister chooses them himself, yet they decide the laws to be put before parliament. 

The reason we don't get to elect commissioners is because that would undermine the role of national governments and be too far on the road to a federal EU for some countries, particularly the UK, to support.

We do elect the European Parliament, which then selects the president and approves the commission as a whole.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 24, 2016)

tbh i'm not comfortable with all this talk of democracy anyway - any sort of fully democratic neo-liberal superstate would be just as horrendous given that politics are the shadow thrown on society by business. And the EU represents business not society.


----------



## Coolfonz (Jun 24, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Tony Benn's test for democracy was pretty spot on.
> 
> 
> 
> People looking at the EU institutions, even if they aren't geeks when it comes to constitutional minutiae, can see clearly that they lack democracy.


Which bits?
And does anyone really believe in democracy? I don't. If you have a class of 30 kids and 16 vote to kick the other 14 in the nuts is it ok? Even if it would be pretty funny. People really meaning representative voting systems with a form of universal suffrage no?


----------



## mauvais (Jun 24, 2016)

free spirit said:


> we also don't elect the UK cabinet (or prime minister really) the prime minister chooses them himself, yet they decide the laws to be put before parliament.


Sod them - we need to extricate ourself from the Civil Service first. Unelected bastards!


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 24, 2016)

free spirit said:


> we also don't elect the UK cabinet (or prime minister really) the prime minister chooses them himself, yet they decide the laws to be put before parliament.
> 
> The reason we don't get to elect commissioners is because that would undermine the role of national governments and be too far on the road to a federal EU for some countries, particularly the UK, to support.
> 
> We do elect the European Parliament, which then selects the president and approves the commission as a whole.


That's a terrible comparison. The bulk of the cabinet 90%+ is always elected. That means some measure of accountability- and they're chosen by someone who is elected. But like with mauvais, i get it, you don't care about that. Fine. Accept your loss.


----------



## chilango (Jun 24, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> tbh i'm not comfortable with all this talk of democracy anyway - any sort of fully democratic neo-liberal superstate would be just as horrendous given that politics are the shadow thrown on society by business. And the EU represents business not society.



Quite. That's really not where the battle is (or should be) right now.


----------



## Wilf (Jun 24, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> I am not stereotyping all Leave supporters as thick racists and little englanders. But there are certainly a sizeable number of them.


There are a good few posters on this thread who voted to leave.  I doubt that _any_ are racist. They, like me, had to wrestle with voting against EU neo liberalism, but also on the side as farage et al in binary political act (fwiw, I ended up not voting).  And many other people in the country - up to 17m - had to do the same balancing act. I know you are pissed off, but presenting it as you are doing is unfair - and does you no favours.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 24, 2016)

free spirit said:


> we also don't elect the UK cabinet (or prime minister really) the prime minister chooses them himself, yet they decide the laws to be put before parliament.
> 
> The reason we don't get to elect commissioners is because that would undermine the role of national governments and be too far on the road to a federal EU for some countries, particularly the UK, to support.
> 
> We do elect the European Parliament, which then selects the president and approves the commission as a whole.


Also clear attempt to obfuscate between being elected then being chosen to be in the cabinet and elected to be on the commission.


----------



## Wilf (Jun 24, 2016)

emanymton said:


> Boris Johnson says 'no need for haste' to start EU exit negotiations
> 
> I bet. I don't think he ever actually wanted to leave. He has tried to play both sides of the tory party and I think he was banking on a remain win,  allowing him to get the support of the exit tories while getting the result he wanted. I hope he's as fucked of with the result as Cameron and Osborne.


I haven't gone back to check whether he was a vocal 'outer' before he actually joined the campaign, but have a feeling you might be right.


----------



## free spirit (Jun 24, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> tbh i'm not comfortable with all this talk of democracy anyway - any sort of fully democratic neo-liberal superstate would be just as horrendous given that politics are the shadow thrown on society by business. And the EU represents business not society.


at least that's a vaguely consistent position.

My take on it is that the crap about the lack of democracy from the vast majority of people* spouting it is just them repeating crap they've seen others banging on about for years rather than indicating that they've particularly bothered to investigate how it really works themselves. And if they were concerned then they really should at least be voting in the bit of democratic accountability that there was, rather than ignoring it. I think they'd have largely ignored it anyway however democratic the elections were largely because of the way the media fails to report on the EU at all, other than the occasional council of ministers meeting / summit.

*not particularly talking about posters on here in this comment.


----------



## emanymton (Jun 24, 2016)

Wilf said:


> I haven't gone back to check whether he was a vocal 'outer' before he actually joined the campaign, but have a feeling you might be right.


From what I remember he did not declare one why or the other until the referendum date was set.


----------



## free spirit (Jun 24, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Also clear attempt to obfuscate between being elected then being chosen to be in the cabinet and elected to be on the commission.


There's little difference in reality, we don't get to vote on cabinet members, only those in their constituencies get to elect them as constituency MPs who may or may not end up in cabinet in a post of the prime ministers choosing.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 24, 2016)

free spirit said:


> at least that's a vaguely consistent position.
> 
> My take on it is that the crap about the lack of democracy from the vast majority of people* spouting it is just them repeating crap they've seen others banging on about for years rather than indicating that they've particularly bothered to investigate how it really works themselves. And if they were concerned then they really should at least be voting in the bit of democratic accountability that there was, rather than ignoring it. I think they'd have largely ignored it anyway however democratic the elections were largely because of the way the media fails to report on the EU at all, other than the occasional council of ministers meeting / summit.
> 
> *not particularly talking about posters on here in this comment.


Tell me how they "at least be voting in the bit of democratic accountability that there was"? Given the lack of process to do this an the deliberate writing in of this inability into the very foundations of the project since the mid 90s?


----------



## 2hats (Jun 24, 2016)

mauvais said:


> Sod them - we need to extricate ourself from the *Civil Service* first. Unelected bastards!


Nail. Head. Hit.


----------



## Wilf (Jun 24, 2016)

mauvais said:


> "What is the EU?" is leading UK Google searches at the moment.


----------



## NoXion (Jun 24, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> Which bits?
> And does anyone really believe in democracy? I don't. If you have a class of 30 kids and 16 vote to kick the other 14 in the nuts is it ok? Even if it would be pretty funny. People really meaning representative voting systems with a form of universal suffrage no?



Indeed! Heavens forfend that the masses have any direct and meaningful power. They could end up doing _anything_ with it!


----------



## Coolfonz (Jun 24, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Ah an unelected body that can only propose laws most of which become law. Right. Got it.
> 
> Could you think of any other way to do that? Maybe, something like elected bodies proposing the laws? And maybe voting on them? Too dangerous?


The commissioners are proposed by elected governments, then discussed between elected govts, then ratified by elected govts. It is true they have too much power though. Imo.
And their laws go through a fucking tortuous process of amendments, again by elected MEPs, in the committee stage, back and forth for fucking ages, years even, and then those laws go to the parliament for more fucking amendments. And then sometimes they get thrown out, but like you say not that often.
Compared to the UK its really pretty `democratic` - the UK has the house of Lords - and compared to the power of corporate lobbyists in the EU, which is horrific, it's not bad. The lobbying and vested interests of single MEPs, of committees (which get lobbied) and of nation states protecting their subsidies (which get lobbied) the system isn't that bad.
The best thing the UE could do to be more `democratic` is open up the commission to voting as butchers point out, but imo, is to get the fucking lobbyists out of the fucking scene.
Also, the EU is very clumsy, 28 (27) members, all with right, left, green, nationalists...can be very very clunky.


----------



## free spirit (Jun 24, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Tell me how they "at least be voting in the bit of democratic accountability that there was"? Given the lack of process to do this an the deliberate writing in of this inability into the very foundations of the project since the mid 90s?


Unless the European Parliament is a figment of my imagination, that would pretty obviously be what I was referring to.

The UK parliament has a similar level of democratic deficiency, but withholding votes at elections does fuck all to improve the situation.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 24, 2016)

free spirit said:


> There's little difference in reality, we don't get to vote on cabinet members, only those in their constituencies get to elect them as constituency MPs who may or may not end up in cabinet in a post of the prime ministers choosing.


There's a massive difference in reality. Cabinet members can get at least voted out at periodic elections. Commissioners cannot and are placemen for power games of the elite. Cabinet members have to defend their policies publicly and politically - commissioners do not. All they need do is come up with their told to then pass it on the democratic house. What other powers do they have FS? A fully clued up person like you must know right - what else can they do?


----------



## Wilf (Jun 24, 2016)

killer b said:


> Why would you bother voting in an election for a body you believe to be undemocratic?


Indeed - and how would you feel motivated to vote for a Parliament that is both remote and powerless.


----------



## elbows (Jun 24, 2016)

free spirit said:


> And if they were concerned then they really should at least be voting in the bit of democratic accountability that there was, rather than ignoring it.



I have some trouble ratifying this stance with the stance I assume (feel free to correct) you would have taken when it came to trying to thwart leaders who were arranging trade deals with sinister implications.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 24, 2016)

free spirit said:


> Unless the European Parliament is a figment of my imagination, that would pretty obviously be what I was referring to.
> 
> The UK parliament has a similar level of democratic deficiency, but withholding votes at elections does fuck all to improve the situation.


So hang on - the only bit of democratic accountability we have is the voting for MEPs? And you wonder why people think it's a sham not worth bothering with?

I wish you and mauvais would decide whether the eu is democratic or not btw. Or if it matters.


----------



## Coolfonz (Jun 24, 2016)

NoXion said:


> Indeed! Heavens forfend that the masses have any direct and meaningful power. They could end up doing _anything_ with it!



Power is great. But a belief in the right of one section of the population to massacre another, because they vote for it, is just wonky. Systems, society, self-regulation, peace, stability, equally applicable laws and so on...that's `democratic` imo, the voting bit isn't the top line.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 24, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> Power is great. But a belief in the right of one section of the population to massacre another, because they vote for it, is just wonky. Systems, society, self-regulation, peace, stability, equally applicable laws and so on...that's `democratic` imo, the voting bit isn't the top line.


Oddly enough as regards greece you argued that all that counts is power - syriza should do anything to stay in power. Read the eu well there didn't you?


----------



## Coolfonz (Jun 24, 2016)

Yeah in Greece i think so because its the best available choice, not because Syriza are a utopian aim or dream in themsleves, again they are also (to paraphrase another thread) a cornered dog, i hope they get to bite back one day. That story isn't over imo.


----------



## elbows (Jun 24, 2016)

I reckon Rupert Trousers by the Sleaford Mods works extra-well post-referendum.

Including one or two of peoples renewed fears about boris, tories and little englanders, and one of the reasons the vote went the way it did with 'ignored by the well-spoken. few scraps, few broken promises on telly'.


----------



## Wilf (Jun 24, 2016)

free spirit said:


> we also don't elect the UK cabinet (or prime minister really) the prime minister chooses them himself, yet they decide the laws to be put before parliament.
> 
> The reason we don't get to elect commissioners is because that would undermine the role of national governments and be too far on the road to a federal EU for some countries, particularly the UK, to support.
> 
> We do elect the European Parliament, which then selects the president and approves the commission as a whole.


Like Butchers, I'm not keen on discussing the validity of the EU with regard to whether it meets the test of liberal democratic institutions.  Democratic or otherwise it's a body for organising European neo-liberalism and its relations with the rest of the world. However if you do want to have that discussion... it clearly fails the test. The European Parliament doesn't even work as a fig leaf and has no channels of accountability up or down.  It's so shit and pointless that it fails to even carry an ideological function.  Added to which, for a body with no power, it manages staggering levels of corruption and snout/trough-ery.

The Shitness of the EU Parliament isn't the major reason for last night's result, but its part of the story.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 24, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> Yeah in Greece i think so because its the best available choice, not because Syriza are a utopian aim or dream in themsleves, again they are also (to paraphrase another thread) a cornered dog, i hope they get to bite back one day. That story isn't over imo.


Jesus, they're imposing eu led austerity in a state with no parliament, an eu-protectorate -  and rather than face facts about your analysis you offer some fantasy about them coming back - and through parliament? EU fantasy broke down into full madness here.


----------



## free spirit (Jun 24, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> There's a massive difference in reality. Cabinet members can get at least voted out at periodic elections. Commissioners cannot and are placemen for power games of the elite. Cabinet members have to defend their policies publicly and politically - commissioners do not. All they need do is come up with their told to then pass it on the democratic house. What other powers do they have FS? A fully clued up person like you must know right - what else can they do?


how do I go about voting out a UK cabinet member?

Commissioners change every 5 years. If the make up of the parliament and council of ministers were to become majority socialist then the commissioners would also be majority socialist. The fact that's not currently the case is because that's not been the democratically expressed will of the people across Europe, if the left were able to convince the people of their case then there could be a majority socialist commission as well as parliament and council of ministers.

As Coolfonz states, the commissioners are answerable to the parliament and can get very little done without parliamentary approval, they face significant levels of scrutiny for all bills they propose and actions taken by parliamentary committees, and then the entire parliament, and the council of ministers.

So the problem's not the lack of democracy, it's the lack of ability of the left to really attain mass appeal across the continent.


----------



## elbows (Jun 24, 2016)

Malice in blunderland.


----------



## free spirit (Jun 24, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> So hang on - the only bit of democratic accountability we have is the voting for MEPs? And you wonder why people think it's a sham not worth bothering with?
> 
> I wish you and mauvais would decide whether the eu is democratic or not btw. Or if it matters.


2 layers of it, MEPs and their elected governments.

And MEPs are elected proportionally so should better reflect the views of those who bother to vote than any other English parliament.

no idea about Mauvais's views.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 24, 2016)

free spirit said:


> how do I go about voting out a UK cabinet member?
> 
> Commissioners change every 5 years. If the make up of the parliament and council of ministers were to become majority socialist then the commissioners would also be majority socialist. The fact that's not currently the case is because that's not been the democratically expressed will of the people across Europe, if the left were able to convince the people of their case then there could be a majority socialist commission as well as parliament and council of ministers.
> 
> ...


You don't vote them out as a cabinet member - you vote them out as an MP. You don't have even that pathetic option with the euro commission.

Oh great some saviour from on high has decided the euro commission is to be majority socialist. Lucky they got to decide all that for themselves pretty much.

This level of democracy is enough for you. Good. Glad for you. This is one reason why you lost.


----------



## elbows (Jun 24, 2016)

Let them eat technocrats.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 24, 2016)

free spirit said:


> 2 layers of it, MEPs and their elected governments.
> 
> And MEPs are elected proportionally so should better reflect the views of those who bother to vote than any other English parliament.
> 
> no idea about Mauvais's views.


Too much democracy in fact!


----------



## free spirit (Jun 24, 2016)

elbows said:


> I have some trouble ratifying this stance with the stance I assume (feel free to correct) you would have taken when it came to trying to thwart leaders who were arranging trade deals with sinister implications.


no idea as I'm not a mind reader.

In my view the most effective way of thwarting EU trade deals is via MEPs, both electing those who're opposed to them, and lobbying all of them. As well as national governments, but it's the MEPs who really do the detailed work of amendments etc.

If that fails, or it's being thrust upon us to quickly to influence MEPs etc then more direct action to protest at the council of ministers meeting would also be worthwhile, but that should be a last line of defense not a first line of it.


----------



## Wilf (Jun 24, 2016)

free spirit said:


> how do I go about voting out a UK cabinet member?
> 
> Commissioners change every 5 years. If the make up of the parliament and council of ministers were to become majority socialist then the commissioners would also be majority socialist. The fact that's not currently the case is because that's not been the democratically expressed will of the people across Europe, if the left were able to convince the people of their case then there could be a majority socialist commission as well as parliament and council of ministers.
> 
> ...


 You seem to be suggesting that the whole apparatus of the EU, the commission and all its works is neutral - just needs a social democratic vote across the continent and things will be fine?


----------



## mauvais (Jun 24, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> I wish you and mauvais would decide whether the eu is democratic or not btw. Or if it matters.


Well if only you'd asked.

In terms of the technical machinery of it, I agree mostly with Coolfonz' sentiments, in particular that it probably represents a better version of our domestic setup, which in itself may be nothing much to aspire to, but that it is nonetheless flawed.

A tier closer to working reality, and you can't have true democracy without engagement and transparency. A perfect machine representing noone isn't democracy either. For whatever reasons - a mixture of structural properties and our own political choices - we as a nation and society have utterly failed to take part in anything other than the technical minimum. We're not alone in that respect. Posters on this thread think not voting for MEPs represents a considered rejection of its undemocratic nature. I think balls, it represents national disengagement and public irrelevance.

Then another level up, I think little of this detail is even close to the dominant factors in public discourse and the electorate's decision making.

So, as it turns out, all three. It is, it isn't, and it doesn't matter.

Now back to my loss, I suppose. Which bit is your victory?


----------



## free spirit (Jun 24, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> You don't vote them out as a cabinet member - you vote them out as an MP.


how? My MP isn't in the cabinet so I get no opportunity to vote a cabinet member out.

Seriously on this point there's fuck all direct democracy in either system, both are reliant on the elected representatives to nominate / approve their chosen cabinets.


----------



## elbows (Jun 24, 2016)

free spirit said:


> In my view the most effective way of thwarting EU trade deals is via MEPs, both electing those who're opposed to them, and lobbying all of them. As well as national governments, but it's the MEPs who really do the detailed work of amendments etc.
> 
> If that fails, or it's being thrust upon us to quickly to influence MEPs etc then more direct action to protest at the council of ministers meeting would also be worthwhile, but that should be a last line of defense not a first line of it.



Thanks, that answered my question. Do you think you'd have done it that way round when you were younger?

By the way I know that me and you have had rows in the past and I don't want to do that anymore so whether you answer that question or not I won't be following up with anything that might goad you.


----------



## Coolfonz (Jun 24, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Jesus, they're imposing eu led austerity in a state with no parliament, an eu-protectorate -  and rather than face facts about your analysis you offer some fantasy about them coming back - and through parliament? EU fantasy broke down into full madness here.



Yeah it's not good. I'm not saying that it's a good thing, the austerity. It is not. There are a lot of other things in Greek society Syriza can deal with on the way though, police, legal accountability for the elite, civil society, Golden Dawn...I understand you think they sold out, you must understand I think they are the best choice in a shit situation, we've disagreed over this many times right? Honestly if you'd like to PM me and go over it in detail we might stop boring people, maybe you can convince me you're correct


----------



## Wilf (Jun 24, 2016)

How does the EU/Commission stand vis a vis the IMF and WTO?  Is it on the same side?


----------



## free spirit (Jun 24, 2016)

Wilf said:


> You seem to be suggesting that the whole apparatus of the EU, the commission and all its works is neutral - just needs a social democratic vote across the continent and things will be fine?


well, it'd take a while to undo the neoliberal elements to it, but ultimately if there was a sustained period with (qualified) majority socialist (or social democratic) MEPs and governments then those elements could be changed over time.


----------



## Coolfonz (Jun 24, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> You don't vote them out as a cabinet member - you vote them out as an MP. You don't have even that pathetic option with the euro commission.
> 
> Oh great some saviour from on high has decided the euro commission is to be majority socialist. Lucky they got to decide all that for themselves pretty much.
> 
> This level of democracy is enough for you. Good. Glad for you. This is one reason why you lost.


You do have something here , it would be possible to EU-wide direct elect the commissioners imo. Could be like Eurovision but even more scary.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 24, 2016)

Interesting how this referendum has led some on the left to actually defend the EU rather than see them as the far enemy. Well for now that enemy is out the way, so why not focus on battling the near one instead?


----------



## free spirit (Jun 24, 2016)

Wilf said:


> How does the EU/Commission stand vis a vis the IMF and WTO?  Is it on the same side?


currently, largely yes.

But how does one go about democratically influencing the make up of the IMF or WTO?

Now they really are undemocratic neoliberal institutions.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 24, 2016)

mauvais said:


> Well if only you'd asked.
> 
> In terms of the technical machinery of it, I agree mostly with Coolfonz' sentiments, in particular that it probably represents a better version of our domestic setup, which in itself may be nothing much to aspire to, but that it is nonetheless flawed.
> 
> ...


What?


----------



## Ole (Jun 24, 2016)

The concern over a democratic deficit on the part of Leavers can't seriously be ignored.


----------



## mauvais (Jun 24, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> What?


'What' as in 'what is the point in bothering with you'?


----------



## Coolfonz (Jun 24, 2016)

free spirit said:


> well, it'd take a while to undo the neoliberal elements to it, but ultimately if there was a sustained period with (qualified) majority socialist (or social democratic) MEPs and governments then those elements could be changed over time.



The inclusion of neo-liberal and ordo-liberal constraints in the body of EU economic law is utterly wrong imo. It is too inflexible. That however is a product of 37 years of this shit infesting politics across Europe and beyond.


----------



## killer b (Jun 24, 2016)

free spirit said:


> currently, largely yes.
> 
> But how does one go about democratically influencing the make up of the IMF or WTO?
> 
> Now they really are undemocratic neoliberal institutions.


You can't. So burn them down.

(This is what happened yesterday btw)


----------



## free spirit (Jun 24, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Interesting how this referendum has led some on the left to actually defend the EU rather than see them as the far enemy. Well for now that enemy is out the way, so why not focus on battling the near one instead?


there's a difference between supporting the EU as it currently is, and the EU as it possibly could be if Europe elected different MEPs and governments.

We're still stuck with a highly neoliberal government in this country regardless of the EU, so fuck all has improved in that situation, we just now don't have any opportunity of influencing or benefiting from EU wide changes in the political will of the people of the rest of Europe.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 24, 2016)

mauvais said:


> 'What' as in 'what is the point in bothering with you'?


As in, i couldn't make head nor tail of that post. What it was trying to say. What it was trying to address.


----------



## Coolfonz (Jun 24, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Interesting how this referendum has led some on the left to actually defend the EU rather than see them as the far enemy. Well for now that enemy is out the way, so why not focus on battling the near one instead?


Sure thing, good idea. Sadly the EU isn't going very far and now we can do fuck all about it unless Damien Albarn gets his way.


----------



## free spirit (Jun 24, 2016)

killer b said:


> You can't. So burn them down.
> 
> (This is what happened yesterday btw)


yeah, we burned down the one with at least a level of democratic influence to leave us even more exposed to the whims of the other 2.


----------



## mauvais (Jun 24, 2016)

Ole said:


> The concern over a democratic deficit on the part of Leavers can't seriously be ignored.


Surely pointing out the obvious, but this demonstrates nothing about democracy per se. You could have a perfectly democratic EU and this still be the motivation - a rejection of that democratic grouping and a desire to return control to national or local level.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 24, 2016)

free spirit said:


> there's a difference between supporting the EU as it currently is, and the EU as it possibly could be if Europe elected different MEPs and governments.
> 
> We're still stuck with a highly neoliberal government in this country regardless of the EU, so fuck all has improved in that situation, we just now don't have any opportunity of influencing or benefiting from EU wide changes in the political will of the people of the rest of Europe.


You think the writing in of austerity into the very constitution of the eu so it couldn't be changed by elections of MEPS or national govts was by accident?


----------



## Ming (Jun 24, 2016)

So Britain reelected the Tories after they'd privatized the NHS and now they've voted themselves out our biggest trading partner. ...slow hand clap...


----------



## mauvais (Jun 24, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> As in, i couldn't make head nor tail of that post. What it was trying to say. What it was trying to address.


Have you tried looking at the words in the order they're written?


----------



## Skyfallsz (Jun 24, 2016)

free spirit said:


> well, it'd take a while to undo the neoliberal elements to it, but ultimately if there was a sustained period with (qualified) majority socialist (or social democratic) MEPs and governments then those elements could be changed over time.



If there was any possibility of that happening it would have happened by now. I'm gutted about the result, but I do recognise that the EU is a capitalist superstate and all of the mythologising about bringing the continent together etc is just Eurodisney
But I don't agree with trying to destroy it when the alternatives are even worse. There doesn't seem to be a positive left wing argument, I'd imagine that the reality will involve some very well thought out criticisms of what comes along next


----------



## Coolfonz (Jun 24, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> You think the writing in of austerity into the very constitution of the eu so it couldn't be changed by elections of MEPS or national govts was by accident?


Neo-liberalism in the EU, in its core, is wrong. No one here - i think - will argue with that.

The reason it has been infested is due - imo - not to the existence of the structures of the EU, legal bodies, MEPs, committees etc, but because the ideology is completely fucking dominant and has been for close to four decades. Including the dominant ideology held by the leaders of the exit campaign.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 24, 2016)

mauvais said:


> Have you tried looking at the words in the order they're written?


Yep. Didn't help.


----------



## emanymton (Jun 24, 2016)

I dithered a bit between voting leave and abstaining, voting remain was never on the table. Reading the arguments of the remain voters after the fact makes me increasing glad I voted leave in the end,  and am even more convinced it was the right choice.


----------



## mauvais (Jun 24, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Yep. Didn't help.


Well there's not a lot I can do then, is there? Noone else seems to have a problem with the basic concept of question (yours, remember) and answers.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 24, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> Neo-liberalism in the EU, in its core, is wrong. No one here - i think - will argue with that.
> 
> The reason it has been infested is due - imo - not to the existence of the structures of the EU, legal bodies, MEPs, committees etc, but because the ideology is completely fucking dominant and has been for close to four decades. Including the dominant ideology held by the leaders of the exit campaign.


It's not infested - like you get something but can clear out. It's too late. Competition with with other capitalist blocs was written into it from the start. 

 And so what if it came about in the way you suggest? How does that effect it being now constitutionally neo-liberal and never able to be changed to anything else.


----------



## elbows (Jun 24, 2016)

free spirit said:


> We're still stuck with a highly neoliberal government in this country regardless of the EU, so fuck all has improved in that situation, we just now don't have any opportunity of influencing or benefiting from EU wide changes in the political will of the people of the rest of Europe.



We can have an argument about whether we've influenced the EU more by leaving than anything we would likely have done by staying. Granted its most dramatic impact is of a form of influence quite different to stuffy negotiations. But I won't shed a tear that we've losses the ability to have someone negotiating on our behalf that thinks a great technique is to become desperate for a piss in order to focus the mind.

This exit will probably go down in history as part of a sequence of events that came to the surface via the banking crisis and associated shit, some stuff to do with the phase of capitalism, hangovers from last century and other stuff that hasn't become that well defined and confirmed to the masses yet. I find it hard not to have mixed feelings at the moment because of course we don't know what the next steps in the sequence are yet. Some obviously hope that this is the beginning of the end for the EU, or will at least change its direction. 

Personally this event hasn't completely shaken my word because the one certainty I eventually settled on for this century so far is that we have entered a volatile state and the political ground, in terms of what is considered the mainstream 'legitimate spectrum of debate' has slowly been opening up in many directions. Things the centre found unthinkable have unfolded, and there is probably more to come.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 24, 2016)

mauvais said:


> Well there's not a lot I can do then, is there? Noone else seems to have a problem with the basic concept of question (yours, remember) and answers.


I doubt many read it in all honesty.


----------



## emanymton (Jun 24, 2016)

mauvais said:


> Well there's not a lot I can do then, is there? Noone else seems to have a problem with the basic concept of question (yours, remember) and answers.


Didn't make sense to be either, but I struggled to make it past the second paragraph to be honest.


----------



## mauvais (Jun 24, 2016)

Oh good. Well, fuck it then.


----------



## Coolfonz (Jun 24, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> It's not infested - like you get something but can clear out. It's too late. Competition with with other capitalist blocs was written into it from the start.
> 
> And so what if it came about in the way you suggest? How does that effect it being now constitutionally neo-liberal and never able to be changed to anything else.


Because the fight is with the ideology, always will be, it will never end, always will be a right and left and you just have to go on fighting for ever, like Captain Scarlett, you might never win but you have to fight.


----------



## agricola (Jun 24, 2016)

Ole said:


> The concern over a democratic deficit on the part of Leavers can't seriously be ignored.



TBH the worrying thing for what remains of Remain should be (at least if the polling is accurate) that the main reason Tory and Labour Remain voters gave for voting that way was that Brexit was too much of a risk.


----------



## Coolfonz (Jun 24, 2016)

mauvais said:


> Oh good. Well, fuck it then.


Just write it out again for us thickos


----------



## killer b (Jun 24, 2016)

free spirit said:


> yeah, we burned down the one with at least a level of democratic influence to leave us even more exposed to the whims of the other 2.


Both of them preferred dealing with a Britain in the EU. Because the EU does most of their work for them, even with its fig leaf.


----------



## Skyfallsz (Jun 24, 2016)

elbows said:


> We can have an argument about whether we've influenced the EU more by leaving than anything we would likely have done by staying. Granted its most dramatic impact is of a form of influence quite different to stuffy negotiations. But I won't shed a tear that we've losses the ability to have someone negotiating on our behalf that thinks a great technique is to become desperate for a piss in order to focus the mind.
> 
> This exit will probably go down in history as part of a sequence of events that came to the surface via the banking crisis and associated shit, some stuff to do with the phase of capitalism, hangovers from last century and other stuff that hasn't become that well defined and confirmed to the masses yet. I find it hard not to have mixed feelings at the moment because of course we don't know what the next steps in the sequence are yet. Some obviously hope that this is the beginning of the end for the EU, or will at least change its direction.
> 
> Personally this event hasn't completely shaken my word because the one certainty I eventually settled on for this century so far is that we have entered a volatile state and the political ground, in terms of what is considered the mainstream 'legitimate spectrum of debate' has slowly been opening up in many directions. Things the centre found unthinkable have unfolded, and there is probably more to come.



I agree with this, I just wish I didn't have to live through it. Maybe I'm just stuck in a negative mindset, but how ridiculously lucky we are to be able to live in such a safe and stable place, I am upset that it's been trashed on purpose by this agenda. 
I do agree that something had to happen, but considering that Britain is one of the rich bits of the world, could we not have come up with something positive?


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 24, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> Because the fight is with the ideology, always will be, it will never end, always will be a right and left and you just have to go on fighting for ever, like Captain Scarlett, you might never win but you have to fight.


This doesn't mean anything - how is ideology fought? What is ideology? How is it related to material conditions? Are those rejecting eu neo-liberalism by voting leave fighting the ideology, refusing to grant it any legitimacy it by any action whatsoever? Or are they as you said, lining up with nazis, nazi fellow travelers?

You need some ideology to keep you straight as it goes. Just saying the first thing off the top of your head each new event - no matter how opposed to what you said previously - just doesn't cut it. Esp now.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 24, 2016)

Ole said:


> The concern over a democratic deficit on the part of Leavers can't seriously be ignored.


Is being and will be.


----------



## emanymton (Jun 24, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> Because the fight is with the ideology, always will be, it will never end, always will be a right and left and you just have to go on fighting for ever, like Captain Scarlett, you might never win but you have to fight.


I wish it was just a  battle of ideologies.  But it isn't. It is a real  material battle that takes place daily, as capital tries to force more and more concessions from labour. The EU will not protect labour from capital, it is in fact one of the institutiones capital uses to force those concessions. The only way to slow the gradual descent into shit id by working class struggle. Am I optimistic about the prospects for such struggle? No I am not. But by leaving the EU we deprive capital of one of the leavers it has against us. The EU will never work to improve things for the working class. 

I think this issue shows incredibly clearly the difference between those who really have pro-working class politics and the liberals. The librals look for some entity that somehow exists outside of society to improve things, weather it's the state or the EU. Those with true pro-working class politics recognise that it is only by the active struggle of the working class that things will improve. Not that I am saying everyone who voted remain is a liberal, as with those of us who voted leave there are a wide range of reasons why people voted to remain.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 24, 2016)

François Hollande said:
			
		

> “To move forward, Europe cannot act as before.”






			
				Mark Rutte said:
			
		

> The EU has to become more relevant, deliver added value to our lives: jobs, growth, control of our external borders...this strong discontent with Europe, the Europe of the lofty speeches. Most of my EU colleagues also share this view. They too don’t want any more big visions, conventions and treaties.






			
				Charles Michel said:
			
		

> We need to keep a cool head and need to see what new way of cooperation would be possible






			
				Witold Waszczykowski said:
			
		

> disillusionment with European integration, and declining trust in the EU






			
				Matteo Renzi said:
			
		

> We must change it to make it more human and more just






			
				Nurettin Canikli said:
			
		

> The European Union’s disintegration has started...Britain was the first to jump ship.




Fucking stupid Little Englanders


----------



## weltweit (Jun 24, 2016)

Ole said:


> The concern over a democratic deficit on the part of Leavers can't seriously be ignored.


That looks to me like a questionnaire, not the results of one!


----------



## Skyfallsz (Jun 24, 2016)

emanymton said:


> I wish it was just a  battle of ideologies.  But it isn't. It is a real  material battle that takes place daily, as capital tries to force more and more concessions from labour. The EU will not protect labour from capital, it is in fact one of the institutiones capital uses to force those concessions. The only way to slow the gradual descent into shit id by working class struggle. Am I optimistic about the prospects for such struggle? No I am not. But by leaving the EU we deprive capital of one of the leavers it has against us. The EU will never work to improve things for the working class.
> 
> I think this issue shows incredibly clearly the difference between those who really have pro-working class politics and the liberals. The librals look for some entity that somehow exists outside of society to improve things, weather it's the state or the EU. Those with true pro-working class politics recognise that it is only by the active struggle of the working class that things will improve. Not that I am saying everyone who voted remain is a liberal, as with those of us who voted leave there are a wide range of reasons why people voted to remain.



Was this the active struggle of the working class?
Leave appealed to a lot of the working class, but that doesn't mean that it was an active struggle of the working class. Lots of things appeal to the working class, most of the population are working class, they can't all be right

'Removing a lever that capital holds against the international working class' somehow didn't make any of the Brexit leaflets


----------



## sim667 (Jun 24, 2016)

Wilf said:


> Joshua Rozenberg on the significance of Cameron not triggering the the article 50 (allows time for further negotiations, which could be put to a general election). I suspect he's grasping at straws. There's a _legal_ route to further negotiations, but it's unlikely to become a political reality:
> https://www.theguardian.com/comment...cle-50-lisbon-treaty-referendum-david-Cameron
> 
> Edit - link doesn't seem to be working, but the article is there on the grauniad site


I don't think it's about having more time, realistically would you want to end your leadership negotiating deals that could have massive consequences and which on the public face of things, isn't a decision you supported.

I certainly wouldn't


----------



## mojo pixy (Jun 24, 2016)

no-no said:


> and Tony Benns giving you a back slap from beyond the grave, so fucking what?



Nobody can do anything once they're dead. Marine le Pen is very much alive and well and saying ''well done'' though. So congrats to those who deserve them.


----------



## mk12 (Jun 24, 2016)

Skyfallsz said:


> Was this the active struggle of the working class?
> Leave appealed to a lot of the working class, but that doesn't mean that it was an active struggle of the working class. Lots of things appeal to the working class, most of the population are working class, they can't all be right
> 
> 'Removing a lever that capital holds against the international working class' somehow didn't make any of the Brexit leaflets


Why do you assume that the content of Brexit leaflets reflect people's reasons for leaving the EU? I doubt many people read the leaflets shoved through their door let alone internalised their messages.


----------



## inva (Jun 24, 2016)

mojo pixy said:


> Nobody can do anything once they're dead. Marine le Pen is very much alive and well and saying ''well done'' though. So congrats to those who deserve them.


cheers


----------



## emanymton (Jun 24, 2016)

Skyfallsz said:


> Was this the active struggle of the working class?
> Leave appealed to a lot of the working class, but that doesn't mean that it was an active struggle of the working class. Lots of things appeal to the working class, most of the population are working class, they can't all be right
> 
> 'Removing a lever that capital holds against the international working class' somehow didn't make any of the Brexit leaflets


I didn't say it was an active struggle of the working class it clearly was not. What it has done is remove one of the institution that maintain the current situation.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 24, 2016)

mojo pixy said:


> Nobody can do anything once they're dead. Marine le Pen is very much alive and well and saying ''well done'' though. So congrats to those who deserve them.


Name them.


----------



## Ole (Jun 24, 2016)

Full tables are up.

http://lordashcroftpolls.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/How-the-UK-voted-Full-tables-1.pdf

Fill yer boots.


----------



## Coolfonz (Jun 24, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> This doesn't mean anything - how is ideology fought? What is ideology? How is it related to material conditions? Are those rejecting eu neo-liberalism by voting leave fighting the ideology, refusing to grant it any legitimacy it by any action whatsoever? Or are they as you said, lining up with nazis, nazi fellow travelers?
> 
> You need some ideology to keep you straight as it goes. Just saying the first thing off the top of your head each new event - no matter how opposed to what you said previously - just doesn't cut it. Esp now.



Some of them are fighting it yes. Completely. Some of the others are the 1mn who voted for two BNP MEPs in the one but last Euro elections. They can go suck their mothers' cunts. I said _I_ would not line up with nazis. Me, my personal choice here. A distinction. You think I think the Urban Lexit crowd are soft on Nazis? You aren't inferring that are you? 

And I can say what i like, it is, after all, the internet and I'm just some bloke.


----------



## no-no (Jun 24, 2016)

mojo pixy said:


> Nobody can do anything once they're dead. Marine le Pen is very much alive and well and saying ''well done'' though. So congrats to those who deserve them.



It doesn't follow that people who voted out will now vote for far right parties. 

Are you comfortable with a parlianment that approved a guy that makes quotes like these? Jean-Claude Juncker's most outrageous political quotations


----------



## no-no (Jun 24, 2016)

mk12 said:


> Why do you assume that the content of Brexit leaflets reflect people's reasons for leaving the EU? I doubt many people read the leaflets shoved through their door let alone internalised their messages.



This


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 24, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> Some of them are fighting it yes. Completely. Some of the others are the 1mn who voted for two BNP MEPs in the one but last Euro elections. They can go suck their mothers' cunts. I said _I_ would not line up with nazis. Me, my personal choice here. A distinction. You think I think the Urban Lexit crowd are soft on Nazis? You aren't inferring that are you?
> 
> And I can say what i like, it is, after all, the internet and I'm just some bloke.


You're the one who openly stated it, never mind inferring it. 

You're all over the shop.


----------



## mojo pixy (Jun 24, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Name them.



Nigel Farage, George Galloway, Ian Duncan Smith, the two guys I saw walking into the polling station yesterday wearing LEAVE badges. Millions, it turns out, and I don't know every name. Perhaps lists will be posted at the appropriate time, that's how such things are done, I hear.


----------



## elbows (Jun 24, 2016)

I note that Obama used the G word.



> I do think that yesterday's vote speaks to the ongoing changes and challenges that are raised by globalisation. While the UK's relationship with the EU will change, one thing that will not change is the special relationship that exists between our two nations that will endure."


----------



## Coolfonz (Jun 24, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> You're the one who openly stated it, never mind inferring it.
> 
> You're all over the shop.



Balls. You banana.


----------



## sihhi (Jun 24, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Interesting how this referendum has led some on the left to actually defend the EU rather than see them as the far enemy. Well for now that enemy is out the way, so why not focus on battling the near one instead?



Sad but true. A minority - perhaps a majority - of the left have given in to a liberalism expressed by the middle-classes of various sorts. 

These types - academics, lawyers, middle managers in pensioned positions often house owners in inflated areas - materially benefited from the economic relationships cemented by the the European Union. They saw it as a friend against the rote workers struggling to maintain any sort of housing who wanted a shake-up in any way they could get it.

I am stunned by the reaction of leftist horror as if the British state has withdrawn from the United Nations.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 24, 2016)

mojo pixy said:


> Nigel Farage, George Galloway, Ian Duncan Smith, the two guys I saw walking into the polling station yesterday wearing LEAVE badges. Millions, it turns out, and I don't know every name. Perhaps lists will be posted at the appropriate time, that's how such things are done, I hear.


Just people you don't like and millions whose motivations you don't know but in your massive experience imagine that you do. What topped the only polling so far on reasons for voting out?


----------



## Skyfallsz (Jun 24, 2016)

mk12 said:


> Why do you assume that the content of Brexit leaflets reflect people's reasons for leaving the EU? I doubt many people read the leaflets shoved through their door let alone internalise their messages.



I never said that it was on the leaflets, what I meant was that the idea that it was about the 'levers of capital against the international working class' is just as much of a leap as that it was 'an expression of shameful xenophobia' or something


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 24, 2016)

sihhi said:


> I am stunned by the reaction of leftist horror as if the British state has withdrawn from the United Nations.



What have I missed? 

Oh yeah...maybe people have been watching Fox


----------



## Dandred (Jun 24, 2016)

This exit and the reaction here just shows how far behind U75 is.


----------



## emanymton (Jun 24, 2016)

Skyfallsz said:


> I never said that it was on the leaflets, what I meant was that the idea that it was about the 'levers of capital against the international working class' is just as much of a leap as that it was 'an expression of shameful xenophobia' or something


What do you think the social role of the EU is?


----------



## no-no (Jun 24, 2016)

Dandred said:


> This exit and the reaction here just shows how far behind U75 is.



behind your mum


----------



## mojo pixy (Jun 24, 2016)

no-no said:


> It doesn't follow that people who voted out will now vote for far right parties.



True, and also it doesn't follow that they won't. How emboldened those parties and movements will now feel though is still to become clear.



no-no said:


> Are you comfortable with a parlianment that approved a guy that makes quotes like these? Jean-Claude Juncker's most outrageous political quotations



No, but I've never believed the EU or its representatives were perfect or even good. I'm not comfortable with being congratulated by neo-nazis either but that appears to be happening nonetheless.


----------



## Skyfallsz (Jun 24, 2016)

emanymton said:


> What do you think the social role of the EU is?



That's quite a broad question. Maybe you should go first and I'll see if I agree with you


----------



## Coolfonz (Jun 24, 2016)

You want a percentage who are `fighting it` and a percentage who are mad race-oids and a percentage who ticked the wrong box? Go and have a fucking pint/bang hard, ffs, it's friday. Chill the fuck out. It's the internet. Arguing over bits and bobs about the EU and its structures when mad right wing cunts are running all over the place. Wheres the bloody facepalm thing? Oh here  I'm not the only person here who disagrees with you, christ.


----------



## inva (Jun 24, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> You want a percentage who are `fighting it` and a percentage who are mad race-oids and a percentage who ticked the wrong box? Go and have a fucking pint/bang hard, ffs, it's friday. Chill the fuck out. It's the internet. Arguing over bits and bobs about the EU and its structures when mad right wing cunts are running all over the place. Wheres the bloody facepalm thing? Oh here  I'm not the only person here who disagrees with you, christ.


who are you talking to?


----------



## killer b (Jun 24, 2016)

Has someone posted Lisa Mckenzie's article for THE yet?

EU referendum: many don’t care what happens next, they just wanted change


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 24, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> You want a percentage who are `fighting it` and a percentage who are mad race-oids and a percentage who ticked the wrong box? Go and have a fucking pint/bang hard, ffs, it's friday. Chill the fuck out. It's the internet. Arguing over bits and bobs about the EU and its structures when mad right wing cunts are running all over the place. Wheres the bloody facepalm thing? Oh here  I'm not the only person here who disagrees with you, christ.


What?


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 24, 2016)

killer b said:


> Has someone posted Lisa Mckenzie's article for THE yet?
> 
> EU referendum: many don’t care what happens next, they just wanted change


Nope. They won't listen anyway.


----------



## inva (Jun 24, 2016)

killer b said:


> Has someone posted Lisa Mckenzie's article for THE yet?
> 
> EU referendum: many don’t care what happens next, they just wanted change


thanks for posting that I'll give it a read, I have her book on my to read list


----------



## emanymton (Jun 24, 2016)

Skyfallsz said:


> That's quite a broad question. Maybe you should go first and I'll see if I agree with you


I think I've made my position clear, why do you have a shot.


----------



## Skyfallsz (Jun 24, 2016)

emanymton said:


> I think I've made my position clear, why do you have a shot.



Ok, the reason that I am upset about the result is that we are ridiculously lucky to live in the EU, it's one of the most stable and well off parts of the world, and it's also ridiculously good that you can just travel around such a large area so easily.  If the campaign to exit had offered anything positive up then I might have been on board, but the left wing arguments are just the same bullshit that you will be repeating about whatever comes next, and after that. 
It seems like leaving your job when you don't have another job to go to to me
It's not actually taken as a given that Europe will just be boring and well off forever, it's already falling into the shit, I don't see why people want to hurry that up,


----------



## Poi E (Jun 24, 2016)

xenon said:


> And Wales?
> 
> Where do you bubble freaks come from that you don't know anyone who'd voted or considered voting Brexit. I didn't vote Brexit BTW. But really. Pull your heads out of your arses. Try talking to people, seeing what's going on.



Hey dude, not supporting either side here, just found it funny someone saying fuck Britain when Scotland voted remain. Know plenty who voted either way.


----------



## Poi E (Jun 24, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> Cameron pretty much guaranteed to go down in history as the worst PM ever now. He's lost us the NHS, the EU and probably Scotland too.



Lost 'us' Scotland? What is it? An asset of England?


----------



## mojo pixy (Jun 24, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> millions whose motivations you don't know but in your massive experience imagine that you do



Back atcha.

But actually the ''congratulations'' we're getting probably aren't taking into account the many different motivations for voting to leave. They're really aimed at the result itself.


----------



## emanymton (Jun 24, 2016)

Skyfallsz said:


> Ok, the reason that I am upset about the result is that we are ridiculously lucky to live in the EU, it's one of the most stable and well off parts of the world, and it's also ridiculously good that you can just travel around such a large area so easily.  If the campaign to exit had offered anything positive up then I might have been on board, but the left wing arguments are just the same bullshit that you will be repeating about whatever comes next, and after that.
> It seems like leaving your job when you don't have another job to go to to me
> It's not actually taken as a given that Europe will just be boring and well off forever, it's already falling into the shit, I don't see why people want to hurry that up,


Which doesn't really answers the question. What role does it perform, who's interests does it serve? Do you think that freedom of travel exists just because the people who run the EU are nice?


----------



## mojo pixy (Jun 24, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> What topped the only polling so far on reasons for voting out?



What did?


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 24, 2016)

mojo pixy said:


> What did?


Lack of democratic control - it's posted above on this thread.


----------



## mojo pixy (Jun 24, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Lack of democratic control - it's posted above on this thread.



Are you referring to ''decisions about the UK should be taken in the UK'' or ''lack of choice over how the EU expanded its membership or its powers''? I'm not clear on the #1 reason among the three; it looks as if the ''sovereignty'' flavoured one was actually the main one.

Maybe mass boycotts of multinational corporations are also about to begin, led by Farage and his posse of ''Take Our Country Back''ers. I mean. If it's a lack of democratic accountability and a lack of control over large organisations who make decisions that affect us which is the main thing we're concerned about.


----------



## xenon (Jun 24, 2016)

Poi E said:


> Hey dude, not supporting either side here, just found it funny someone saying fuck Britain when Scotland voted remain. Know plenty who voted either way.



Sorry. Last para wasn't aimed at you. Thread was moving fast, shoulda multiquoted.


----------



## xenon (Jun 24, 2016)

I'm listening to Any Questions. I think I need to do something else... Anything. Very soon.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 24, 2016)

mojo pixy said:


> Are you referring to ''decisions about the UK should be taken in the UK'' or ''lack of choice over how the EU expanded its membership or its powers''? I'm not clear on the #1 reason among the three; it looks as if the ''sovereignty'' flavoured one was actually the main one.
> 
> Maybe mass boycotts of multinational corporations are also about to begin, led by Farage and his posse of ''Take Our Country Back''ers. I mean. If it's a lack of democratic accountability and a lack of control over large organisations who make decisions that affect us which is the main thing we're concerned about.


They are all pretty much the same - don't want an anti-democratic body having control over the UK.

Maybe they're liars, maybe they are part of Nigel's army. Do you think this is a good way to start dealing with the experiences that they represent?

Yes, maybe they'll write silly stuff on their pencil cases rather than delivering a blow to the regional organsiation of capital that has the bosses shitting themselves already. Maybe.


----------



## Wilf (Jun 24, 2016)

emanymton said:


> I wish it was just a  battle of ideologies.  But it isn't. It is a real  material battle that takes place daily, as capital tries to force more and more concessions from labour. The EU will not protect labour from capital, it is in fact one of the institutiones capital uses to force those concessions. The only way to slow the gradual descent into shit id by working class struggle. Am I optimistic about the prospects for such struggle? No I am not. But by leaving the EU we deprive capital of one of the leavers it has against us. The EU will never work to improve things for the working class.
> 
> I think this issue shows incredibly clearly the difference between those who really have pro-working class politics and the liberals. The librals look for some entity that somehow exists outside of society to improve things, weather it's the state or the EU. Those with true pro-working class politics recognise that it is only by the active struggle of the working class that things will improve. Not that I am saying everyone who voted remain is a liberal, as with those of us who voted leave there are a wide range of reasons why people voted to remain.


I agree with every word of that, says it perfectly.  But also, as you say, the result and the act of leaving don't themselves provide grounds for optimism in terms of struggle.  To see a scenario where there is an improvement or an upturn in struggle as a result requires twists and turns or unintended consequences. Just at the level of common sense there's the likelihood of more austerity, more public sector pay cuts - not the squawking predictions of 'project fear', but definitely something.  There might also be twists and turns in terms of which politicians rise to the top of the pile, but it looks like a boost for the worst bits of the tory party.  Things may well get worse. But what do you do?  Just as you say, it would have been madness to line up with EU neo-liberalism in the pretence that it might 'defend' us.  Who would it defend us from, itself and the very set of forces and structures that it is a key part of?  ONce you start thinking class struggle can be done in some way alongside or 'with'/'within' the EU, you stop doing class struggle.


----------



## mojo pixy (Jun 24, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> don't want an anti-democratic body having control over the UK.



The civil service has already been mentioned.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 24, 2016)

mojo pixy said:


> The civil service has already been mentioned.


I reckon they're not keen on that either. You know, what with being all anti-elite and anti-establishment and wanting to tear shit down. I'm not - are you?

This is madness, leavers are mad hypocrites because they love the civil service. Or ignore it. In line with your post above, where is either your or the remain campaigns anti-civil service activity?

Getting crazy now.


----------



## Skyfallsz (Jun 24, 2016)

emanymton said:


> Which doesn't really answers the question. What role does it perform, who's interests does it serve? Do you think that freedom of travel exists just because the people who run the EU are nice?



It lets people have citizenship rights in a large area. It's in the interests of itself, they probably make more money like that. 

Your existentialist questions are a bit pointless since, like I said a couple of times about my main grievance with the Leave people, you aren't offering anything!
What role do you think that the state is going to perform and which interests will it serve now that the referendum results are in? Whose interests does it serve to kick the EU in the balls?


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 24, 2016)

Skyfallsz said:


> It lets people have citizenship rights in a large area. It's in the interests of itself, they probably make more money like that.
> 
> Your existentialist questions are a bit pointless since, like I said a couple of times about my main grievance with the Leave people, you aren't offering anything!
> What role do you think that the state is going to perform and which interests will it serve now that the referendum results are in? Whose interests does it serve to kick the EU in the balls?


Why didn't great swathes of people in the most deprived areas did not jump at - in fact, rejected -  the chance of having citizenship rights in a large area that might make them some money do you think?


----------



## Skyfallsz (Jun 24, 2016)

mojo pixy said:


> Are you referring to ''decisions about the UK should be taken in the UK'' or ''lack of choice over how the EU expanded its membership or its powers''? I'm not clear on the #1 reason among the three; it looks as if the ''sovereignty'' flavoured one was actually the main one.
> 
> Maybe mass boycotts of multinational corporations are also about to begin, led by Farage and his posse of ''Take Our Country Back''ers. I mean. If it's a lack of democratic accountability and a lack of control over large organisations who make decisions that affect us which is the main thing we're concerned about.



Surely we can build on this by turning down the remaining trade agreements have with USA and China on moral grounds. Socialism is just around the corner


----------



## mojo pixy (Jun 24, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> where is either your or the remain campaigns anti-civil service activity?



Unnecessary when you're as into undemocratic things as I am / we are. As the Remain votes clearly attest.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 24, 2016)

mojo pixy said:


> Unnecessary when you're as into undemocratic things as I am / we are. As the Remain votes clearly attest.


But you're not. The suggestion was that people who oppose the eu on the grounds that it's anti-democratic are hypocrites because they don't oppose the british civil service. You remainers also don't make a thing of it. So either we're all anti-democrats (and some of the arguments on here from free spirit and mauvais clearly are) or none are - or some are - based on their active opposition to the british civil service.


----------



## crossthebreeze (Jun 24, 2016)

A couple of articles I thought were interesting.
Jon Snow starting to get it - with a lot of hindsight - though i think more of the media should have tried to understand before it would have been better, and he is still patronising - some people are "Easy pickings for politicians determined to blame Europe for all Britain's failings" - and nothing about people wanting more democratic control.

John Harris makes some very good points in this article - though one or two of his previous articles have seemed to blame immigration on its one for lowering wages and raising rents etc - i think he doesn't always put his observations in a detailed enough context of welfare cuts and increased conditionality (and the political language surrounding this), massive cuts to local services, bulldozing or selling off of social housing, etc, and lack of planning which in themselves can certainly lead to worse pay and conditions, and increased rents and poorer living conditions for working class people, and when combined with increased immigration to a particular area can make things very hard - and make it easy to blame immigration alone as the cause.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 24, 2016)

crossthebreeze said:


> A couple of articles I thought were interesting.
> Jon Snow starting to get it - with a lot of hindsight - though i think more of the media should have tried to understand before it would have been better, and he is still patronising - some people are "Easy pickings for politicians determined to blame Europe for all Britain's failings" - and nothing about people wanting more democratic control.
> 
> John Harris makes some very good points in this article - though one or two of his previous articles have seemed to blame immigration on its one for lowering wages and raising rents etc - i think he doesn't always put his observations in a detailed enough context of welfare cuts and increased conditionality (and the political language surrounding this), massive cuts to local services, bulldozing or selling off of social housing, etc, and lack of planning which in themselves can certainly lead to worse pay and conditions, and increased rents and poorer living conditions for working class people, and when combined with increased immigration to a particular area can make things very hard - and make it easy to blame immigration alone as the cause.


Remember, Harris' is always pitching to an internal labour strategy/policy audience (and media types) primarily. He's telling them what to pretend to care about if they want to be effective. Given they won't do anything effective that is.

His stuff is very good and revealing though. Esp on vid,


----------



## mojo pixy (Jun 24, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> But you're not. The suggestion was that people who oppose the eu on the grounds that it's anti-democratic are hypocrites because they don't oppose the british civil service.



Not the civil service nor the many foreign-based private companies that also have huge control over elements of our society and lives. It is hypocrisy. This whole charade has been hypocritical from the word go. It's hypocritical now. It won't stop being hypocritical any time soon.

Though I'd be prepared to accept that shoplifting and fighting the police respectively count as anti-multinational and anti-civil service activities.


----------



## Skyfallsz (Jun 24, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Why didn't great swathes of people in the most deprived areas did not jump at - in fact, rejected -  the chance of having citizenship rights in a large area that might make them some money do you think?



They don't feel like citizens, like I said, it's a fundamental problem, I agree with the problems, just disagree with the ill thought out solutions
I don't think that it was about the money, that was the fundamental error that the pro EU side made. The fundamental error of the other side is that it isn't going to get anyone the respect that they feel they deserve.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jun 24, 2016)

emanymton said:


> I wish it was just a  battle of ideologies.  But it isn't. It is a real  material battle that takes place daily, as capital tries to force more and more concessions from labour. The EU will not protect labour from capital, it is in fact one of the institutiones capital uses to force those concessions. The only way to slow the gradual descent into shit id by working class struggle. Am I optimistic about the prospects for such struggle? No I am not. But by leaving the EU we deprive capital of one of the leavers it has against us. The EU will never work to improve things for the working class.
> 
> I think this issue shows incredibly clearly the difference between those who really have pro-working class politics and the liberals. The librals look for some entity that somehow exists outside of society to improve things, weather it's the state or the EU. Those with true pro-working class politics recognise that it is only by the active struggle of the working class that things will improve. Not that I am saying everyone who voted remain is a liberal, as with those of us who voted leave there are a wide range of reasons why people voted to remain.


Thank you for this post, I really like it.


----------



## emanymton (Jun 24, 2016)

Wilf said:


> I agree with every word of that, says it perfectly.  But also, as you say, the result and the act of leaving don't themselves provide grounds for optimism in terms of struggle.  To see a scenario where there is an improvement or an upturn in struggle as a result requires twists and turns or unintended consequences. Just at the level of common sense there's the likelihood of more austerity, more public sector pay cuts - not the squawking predictions of 'project fear', but definitely something.  There might also be twists and turns in terms of which politicians rise to the top of the pile, but it looks like a boost for the worst bits of the tory party.  Things may well get worse. But what do you do?  Just as you say, it would have been madness to line up with EU neo-liberalism in the pretence that it might 'defend' us.  Who would it defend us from, itself and the very set of forces and structures that it is a key part of?  ONce you start thinking class struggle can be done in some way alongside or 'with'/'within' the EU, you stop doing class struggle.


And as it happens I agree with every word of this. 
I'm not the best at written communication, and I think you really clarify some of the points I struggled to get across.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 24, 2016)

crossthebreeze said:


> A couple of articles I thought were interesting.
> Jon Snow starting to get it - with a lot of hindsight - though i think more of the media should have tried to understand before it would have been better, and he is still patronising - some people are "Easy pickings for politicians determined to blame Europe for all Britain's failings" - and nothing about people wanting more democratic control.
> 
> John Harris makes some very good points in this article - though one or two of his previous articles have seemed to blame immigration on its one for lowering wages and raising rents etc - i think he doesn't always put his observations in a detailed enough context of welfare cuts and increased conditionality (and the political language surrounding this), massive cuts to local services, bulldozing or selling off of social housing, etc, and lack of planning which in themselves can certainly lead to worse pay and conditions, and increased rents and poorer living conditions for working class people, and when combined with increased immigration to a particular area can make things very hard - and make it easy to blame immigration alone as the cause.


That harris piece is good.

I'm a mid 40s working class bloke of immigrant parents, I didn't go to university. I'm technically homeless and live on a camp bed 4 nights of of the week at my mums. I work for min wage (well, under, but let's not go there now). I've never had more than £500 in my account. I've spent my whole life since my mid teens involved in socialist/anarchist/communist and community activity - real life activity not liking stuff on the internet. The EU's intention is to bring everyone down to the same level as me - that's the whole point. Wage competition. What has the eu for me? I can't afford what the freedom of movement promises. What has the eu for me?


----------



## free spirit (Jun 24, 2016)

Skyfallsz said:


> If there was any possibility of that happening it would have happened by now. I'm gutted about the result, but I do recognise that the EU is a capitalist superstate and all of the mythologising about bringing the continent together etc is just Eurodisney
> But I don't agree with trying to destroy it when the alternatives are even worse. There doesn't seem to be a positive left wing argument, I'd imagine that the reality will involve some very well thought out criticisms of what comes along next


why would it have happened by now?

We're likely at the tail end of the neoliberal austerity project, it's failing catastrophically across multiple countries, with left wing parties either in government or heading that way in multiple countries, and there's the first chance in a generation of us ending up with a socialist or at least social democratic government if Corbyn gets his act together.

And we pretty much have a free pass in the EU as they can not impose austerity on us in the same way they can with eurozone countries.

There's a battle to be fought across europe to achieve this, but we aren't going to achieve fuck all by withdrawing from the field of that battle only to leave ourselves entirely open to the tories making rapid fire trade agreements with whoever they feel like it on whatever terms offered, with the WTO arbitrating.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 24, 2016)

free spirit said:


> We're likely at the tail end of the neoliberal austerity project, it's failing catastrophically across multiple countries, with left wing parties either in government or heading that way in multiple countries, and there's the first chance in a generation of us ending up with a socialist or at least social democratic government if Corbyn gets his act together.



What fucking planet do you live on?


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 24, 2016)

Skyfallsz said:


> They don't feel like citizens, like I said, it's a fundamental problem, I agree with the problems, just disagree with the ill thought out solutions
> I don't think that it was about the money, that was the fundamental error that the pro EU side made. The fundamental error of the other side is that it isn't going to get anyone the respect that they feel they deserve.


Because a right that you can't afford doesn't exist is the correct answer. And a system set up so that you can't exercise those wonderful rights is the problem.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 24, 2016)

free spirit said:


> why would it have happened by now?
> 
> We're likely at the tail end of the neoliberal austerity project, it's failing catastrophically across multiple countries, with left wing parties either in government or heading that way in multiple countries, and there's the first chance in a generation of us ending up with a socialist or at least social democratic government if Corbyn gets his act together.
> 
> ...


Are you at glastonbury?


----------



## Skyfallsz (Jun 24, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Because a right that you can't afford doesn't exist is the correct answer. And a system set up so that you can't exercise those wonderful rights is the problem.



You'd be surprised how many working class people do excercise the right to travel freely around Europe and take advantage of the freedom of movement. I've heard that there are several airlines facilitating this


----------



## free spirit (Jun 24, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> What fucking planet do you live on?


why do you think it will go on for ever?

it's a failed ideology that's been completely exposed as a failure in recent years, it's time is running out (though it will need concerted work internationally to push it aside).

And more to the point, if you don't see any way of dislodging it then I suppose it's no wonder that lexiters have simply supported this exit without having any strategy beyond it.

Me, I've got a strategy, or at least I had one, with a potential end game to it that actually ended up with a paradigm shift away from neoliberalism and austerity. But we've fuck all chance of that if we've got a desperate tory government doing trade deals under the WTO auspicies without the clout of the EU to stand up to it.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 24, 2016)

Skyfallsz said:


> You'd be surprised how many working class people do excercise the right to travel freely around Europe and take advantage of the freedom of movement. I've heard that there are several airlines facilitating this


Yes and you may be surprised to hear that many cannot - and certainly not as the lets pop off to france style that is being suggested. But you're correct i suppose, eveyone is equal now. Hence the results. Hence the depressing never ending statistics about deprivation and poverty in these naughty areas that don't like the eu. All equal all the time.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 24, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> What fucking planet do you live on?


He's gone full on loon this last month. Jazz's post's had a better grasp of reality than this nonsense.

Of course his plan which was going to lead to the end of neo-liberalism was vote for the LibDems, sorry the Greens, sorry Corbyn, sorry the Greens,


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 24, 2016)

free spirit said:


> why do you think it will go on for ever?



Of course, why would they stop it? Have you seen how much they're raking it in with this austerity? 



> it's a failed ideology that's been completely exposed as a failure in recent years, it's time is running out (though it will need concerted work internationally to push it aside).



Not it's not, austerity is laying golden eggs every day.



> And more to the point, if you don't see any way of dislodging it then I suppose it's no wonder that lexiters have simply supported this exit without having any strategy beyond it.



Yes, and the working class of Britain realised the same thing too.



> Me, I've got a strategy, or at least I had one, with a potential end game to it that actually ended up with a paradigm shift away from neoliberalism and austerity.



Well, you're too late.


----------



## emanymton (Jun 24, 2016)

Skyfallsz said:


> It lets people have citizenship rights in a large area. It's in the interests of itself, they probably make more money like that.
> 
> Your existentialist questions are a bit pointless since, like I said a couple of times about my main grievance with the Leave people, you aren't offering anything!
> What role do you think that the state is going to perform and which interests will it serve now that the referendum results are in? Whose interests does it serve to kick the EU in the balls?


But the leave side does offer something, an absence of the EU. And I don't think the question is pointless, the EU must have a purpose otherwise it would not exist. How can you really present a case for staying or leaving without some idea of what purpose the EU serves. You are giving some examples of things the EU does, but don't seem to be able to answer the question of why it does those things. 

As someone who pretends to be a Marxist and sees the world primarily as a conflict between labour and capital I think the EU exist primarily (not exclusively) to serve the interests of capital. I belive therefore that the prospects (and I stress prospects only) for labour are better outside the the EU, as it is one less layer to deal with. The only way in which the EU could be made to implement and reforms beneficial to labour is by being forced to by working class struggle, and it will be far less responsive to those pressures than individual states. Un fact there is a pretty compelling argument that it could not be shifted at all, certainly nothing less than a mass united Europe wide movement could do it.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 24, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> He's gone full on loon this last month.



I think I'm right in saying his business is heavily funded by the EU. Which may account for this. I could be wrong though.


----------



## killer b (Jun 24, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Well, you're too late.


_He'd have done it too, if it weren't for those pesky kids!_


----------



## emanymton (Jun 24, 2016)

free spirit said:


> why do you think it will go on for ever?
> 
> it's a failed ideology that's been completely exposed as a failure in recent years, it's time is running out (though it will need concerted work internationally to push it aside).
> 
> ...


Seriously, are you posting from a parallel dimension or something? That last sentence is so far removed from reality it's surreal. The only thing that will stop the neo-libreal project is if we stop it, or the fuck the planet up so much we all go Mad Max. This exactly what I said about appealing to something that somehow exists outside of society to save us. But it us exactly the institution you are appealing to that is the problem. It's like begging the school bully to step in and stop himself from bullying you.


----------



## Skyfallsz (Jun 24, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Yes and you may be surprised to hear that many cannot - and certainly not as the lets pop off to france style that is being suggested. But you're correct i suppose, eveyone is equal now. Hence the results. Hence the depressing never ending statistics about deprivation and poverty in these naughty areas that don't like the eu. All equal all the time.



But you are attacking as if I was claiming that the EU is a utopia. My position is that fucking over the UK and EU is a terrible decision because the stagnation of the EU is better than chaos. Socialism is not a product of chaos,


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 24, 2016)

Skyfallsz said:


> But you are attacking as if I was claiming that the EU is a utopia. My position is that fucking over the UK and EU is a terrible decision because the stagnation of the EU is better than chaos. Socialism is not a product of chaos,


No.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 24, 2016)

Can i just warn any kids reading, this is  what coke does to you:



> Me, I've got a strategy, or at least I had one, with a potential end game to it that actually ended up with a paradigm shift away from neoliberalism and austerity.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 24, 2016)

The words 'paradigm shift' immediately removes any claim to credibility


----------



## Skyfallsz (Jun 24, 2016)

emanymton said:


> But the leave side does offer something, an absence of the EU. And I don't think the question is pointless, the EU must have a purpose otherwise it would not exist. How can you really present a case for staying or leaving without some idea of what purpose the EU serves. You are giving some examples of things the EU does, but don't seem to be able to answer the question of why it does those things.
> 
> As someone who pretends to be a Marxist and sees the world primarily as a conflict between labour and capital I think the EU exist primarily (not exclusively) to serve the interests of capital. I belive therefore that the prospects (and I stress prospects only) for labour are better outside the the EU, as it is one less layer to deal with. The only way in which the EU could be made to implement and reforms beneficial to labour is by being forced to by working class struggle, and it will be far less responsive to those pressures than individual states. Un fact there is a pretty compelling argument that it could not be shifted at all, certainly nothing less than a mass united Europe wide movement could do it.



I'm also someone who pretends to be a Marxist, but I'm getting old and it is so tempting to see it in other terms when the little I have is under threat.
Where we part company is this idealism that you have that the EU is an obstacle to be removed. In that sense I have more sympathy with Emma Goldman anarchism than anything else (as I understand it) but it's just pointless trashing something when you don't have an alternative, you create an alternative, and that is what our work should be as socialists, and then when we have made something functional and up and running then we can offer an alternative. If you just smash capitalism then you end up with a smashed capitalism, it doesn't just 'work itself out' capitalism is very good at smashing itself, you can't beat them or join them. 
I'd be seriously impressed with any alternative beyond ending it. If there is no alternative then yes of course I would prefer the one that lets me work in 27 other countries and lets the youth go to these cities like Barcelona and Krakow and Milan for 20 pounds like that isn't an amazing thing


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 24, 2016)

Just appeared on the Guardian feed 


> Meanwhile, Reuters reports that major Wall Street banks are scouring Europe to find a new home for their traders, bankers and financial licenses.
> 
> “The question becomes where exactly do they move to? There’s no clear answer on that. You might end up having a more fragmented financial industry in Europe,” Edward Chan, a partner at law firm Linklaters, told the news agency.


Oh noes!


----------



## emanymton (Jun 24, 2016)

Skyfallsz said:


> I'm also someone who pretends to be a Marxist, but I'm getting old and it is so tempting to see it in other terms when the little I have is under threat.
> Where we part company is this idealism that you have that the EU is an obstacle to be removed. In that sense I have more sympathy with Emma Goldman anarchism than anything else (as I understand it) but it's just pointless trashing something when you don't have an alternative, you create an alternative, and that is what our work should be as socialists, and then when we have made something functional and up and running then we can offer an alternative. If you just smash capitalism then you end up with a smashed capitalism, it doesn't just 'work itself out' capitalism is very good at smashing itself, you can't beat them or join them.
> I'd be seriously impressed with any alternative beyond ending it. If there is no alternative then yes of course I would prefer the one that lets me work in 27 other countries and lets the youth go to these cities like Barcelona and Krakow and Milan for 20 pounds like that isn't an amazing thing


Ib order to ask what would replace the EU assumes it benefits us in some way. I don't belive it does and don't feel a need to replace it. Plenty of counties around the world manage to exist outside the EU without descending into chaos.


----------



## elbows (Jun 24, 2016)

Skyfallsz said:


> but it's just pointless trashing something when you don't have an alternative, you create an alternative, and that is what our work should be as socialists, and then when we have made something functional and up and running then we can offer an alternative. If you just smash capitalism then you end up with a smashed capitalism, it doesn't just 'work itself out' capitalism is very good at smashing itself, you can't beat them or join them.



But what happens if you can't create the functional alternative either because of actual EU rules really being in the way, or because of the limitations stable EU membership imposes on some peoples perceptions? e.g. that too many people who you need to join the project to make it successful don't believe it is 'possible' or 'practical' because they see large, distant domineering forces that appear to be monolithic and near-invincible. Especially when this gets mixed with personal experience and some history into dodgy notions about what forms of fairness, equality and opportunity 'human nature' can actually stomach. Little of worth grows in such desolate soils where no hope springs.

Under circumstances of suffocation, don't be surprised if people try to find gaps to breathe anywhere they can. No matter how unsettling it may be, there is an inevitability about this release, it delivered something that handwringing appeals to cling to the status quo never got close to even pretending to offer.

I also suggest that an appetite for change was further whipped up by the way the energy flowed through the Scottish referendum and those that observed both it and the mainstream media words spoken about it. Anti-climaxes can be demotivating but sometimes they are fertiliser for the next opportunity.


----------



## Skyfallsz (Jun 24, 2016)

emanymton said:


> Ib order to ask what would replace the EU assumes it benefits us in some way. I don't belive it does and don't feel a need to replace it. Plenty of counties around the world manage to exist outside the EU without descending into chaos.



I don't think that we are going to have chaos, but the non EU countries that the UK considers as peers are Japan and Korea and North America and I don't envy their systems. Like I keep saying, if there was something to replace it with I want to know about it. Outside of the EU the obvious peers for the UK are Korea and Japan, they are not doing very well, they work much harder than us for less result.


----------



## Coolfonz (Jun 24, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> It's gonna be a bumpy ride!! Short the FTSE before it opens! Go FTFx FTSE 100 Super Short !!!
> 
> Sterling at e1.20...
> 
> ...



Ibex in Spain, exchange in Milan dropped 12pc today...12pc!!! FTSE only ~3pc. Much more worries about the euro than sterling. wow.

Reaction in France, Spain, it's crazy, old people voted to leave, whats going to happen, generation split. european state not dead. what are the fundamental ideas of the EU? what are they (Brits) saying? that they will be ruled by the countryside? He (Farage) talked to the dispossessed. It's historic. We are repeating words today which are very negative, rupture, break, crash. The biggest crash in the IBEX in history. Brexit has damaged the IBEX more than Lehman. The most complex divorce in history. The UK has emboldened Eurosceptics across the EU. An inflexion point in Europe. We hope the UK will give its ideas soon.

Rajoy spoke about the English in Spain. I got bits. He was being nice, `don't worry` `we have to take this calmly`.` But I can't 100pc.

First take is everyone wants to be nice. Early doors. And their market (Spain) just fell by the biggest amount in history. Have to check that.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 24, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> Ibex in Spain, exchange in Milan dropped 12pc today...12pc!!! FTSE only ~3pc. Much more worries about the euro than sterling. wow.
> 
> Reaction in France, Spain, it's crazy, old people voted to leave, whats going to happen, generation split. european state not dead. what are the fundamental ideas of the EU? what are they (Brits) saying? that they will be ruled by the countryside? He (Farage) talked to the dispossessed. It's historic. We are repeating words today which are very negative, rupture, break, crash. The biggest crash in the IBEX in history. Brexit has damaged the IBEX more than Lehman. The most complex divorce in history. The UK has emboldened Eurosceptics across the EU. An inflexion point in Europe. We hope the UK will give its ideas soon.
> 
> ...


Says _tanks_. Then you're  a proper money internet talker.


----------



## Coolfonz (Jun 24, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> Ibex in Spain, exchange in Milan dropped 12pc today...12pc!!! FTSE only ~3pc. Much more worries about the euro than sterling. wow.
> 
> Reaction in France, Spain, it's crazy, old people voted to leave, whats going to happen, generation split. european state not dead. what are the fundamental ideas of the EU? what are they (Brits) saying? that they will be ruled by the countryside? He (Farage) talked to the dispossessed. It's historic. We are repeating words today which are very negative, rupture, break, crash. The biggest crash in the IBEX in history. Brexit has damaged the IBEX more than Lehman. The most complex divorce in history. The UK has emboldened Eurosceptics across the EU. An inflexion point in Europe. We hope the UK will give its ideas soon.
> 
> ...



The news playing out with Beatles songs saying `goooodbye`, shots of Buck House.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 24, 2016)

There are no negotiations:



> Once Article 50 is triggered, the terms of Brexit will be negotiated not by British politicians or diplomats, but by the other 27 nations of the EU.
> 
> And, when the members are ready, they will present the British government with a departure agreement on a "take it or leave it" basis.



Anyone seen anything like this? if true this is their get-out.


----------



## emanymton (Jun 24, 2016)

Skyfallsz said:


> I don't think that we are going to have chaos, but the non EU countries that the UK considers as peers are Japan and Korea and North America and I don't envy their systems. Like I keep saying, if there was something to replace it with I want to know about it. Outside of the EU the obvious peers for the UK are Korea and Japan, they are not doing very well, they work much harder than us for less result.


We're heading that way in or out.  But we have more chance to resist/reverse it if we are out. 

Frankly things would be shit whichever way the referendum went. But if we are in we have virtually no chance of ever making them less shit


----------



## Coolfonz (Jun 24, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> The news playing out with Beatles songs saying `goooodbye`, shots of Buck House.


The Corgis!! Bye to them too.


----------



## Coolfonz (Jun 24, 2016)

Might as well give Gibraltar back, or they'll all catch the number 32 and defect.


----------



## agricola (Jun 24, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> There are no negotiations:
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone seen anything like this? if true this is their get-out.



That seems a bit misleading - the Article is below (relevant point in bold)



> 1. Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements.
> 
> 2. A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, *the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State*, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union. That agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article 218(3) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. It shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the Council, acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament.
> 
> ...



(from here)


----------



## Skyfallsz (Jun 24, 2016)

elbows said:


> But what happens if you can't create the functional alternative either because of actual EU rules really being in the way, or because of the limitations stable EU membership imposes on some peoples perceptions? e.g. that too many people who you need to join the project to make it successful don't believe it is 'possible' or 'practical' because they see large, distant domineering forces that appear to be monolithic and near-invincible. Especially when this gets mixed with personal experience and some history into dodgy notions about what forms of fairness, equality and opportunity 'human nature' can actually stomach. Little of worth grows in such desolate soils where no hope springs.
> 
> Under circumstances of suffocation, don't be surprised if people try to find gaps to breathe anywhere they can. No matter how unsettling it may be, there is an inevitability about this release, it delivered something that handwringing appeals to cling to the status quo never got close to even pretending to offer.
> 
> I also suggest that an appetite for change was further whipped up by the way the energy flowed through the Scottish referendum and those that observed both it and the mainstream media words spoken about it. Anti-climaxes can be demotivating but sometimes they are fertiliser for the next opportunity.



Sorry I'm pissed now so I can't reply properly

But regarding the idea that it was impossible to create an alternative, no not at all, the alternative needs adverse conditions to thrive, marxism was written during the industrial revolution and the european partisans who we all admire and love came from the spanish civil war and then nazi occupation. my real disappointment is that the fake left show their true colours with their little mafias. 

Complete failure of the government and the left and the EU, keep phrasing it and intellectualising it, it's at the point now where nigel farage and boris johnson outmanouevered everyone, but yeah, global capital is also bad, so there is that


----------



## Coolfonz (Jun 24, 2016)

Basically Spain could walk in now. Like if they gave everyone on the island £1mn that would be £32bn. Job done.


----------



## Skyfallsz (Jun 24, 2016)

emanymton said:


> Frankly things would be shit whichever way the referendum went. But if we are in we have virtually no chance of ever making them less shit



That would be a great slogan to plaster all over busses


----------



## Coolfonz (Jun 24, 2016)

Yo Gibraltar, £500k each, in cash, hand over the keys, what you say? Easy. Man, woman, child.


----------



## emanymton (Jun 24, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> There are no negotiations:
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone seen anything like this? if true this is their get-out.


Wow! I can't see it actually being done like that though. If it does work like that it's just one more thing showing the true nature of the EU.


----------



## emanymton (Jun 24, 2016)

Skyfallsz said:


> That would be a great slogan to plaster all over busses


Maybe I should get a job in advertising?


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 24, 2016)

agricola said:


> That seems a bit misleading - the Article is below (relevant point in bold)
> 
> 
> 
> (from here)


It is misleading it says the shall be negotiations but the "4. For the purposes of paragraphs 2 and 3, the member of the European Council or of the Council representing the withdrawing Member State shall not participate in the discussions of the European Council or Council or in decisions concerning it."

Then the qualified majority stuff following can only refer to an agreement of other members.


----------



## realitybites (Jun 24, 2016)

Skyfallsz said:


> They don't feel like citizens, like I said, it's a fundamental problem, I agree with the problems, just disagree with the ill thought out solutions



Feeling the same, but that didn't stop me voting out, I guess I'm one of the citizens with fundamental problems.. Today I started questioning how and why it even got to the point where I could agree with any camp supported by Falange. I always felt far left in terms of political slant, but without a liberal and balanced, easy ohsey existence that is possibly a saviour of many middle class lefty ideologies, mine swung so far left with nowhere to go that it got angry and turned into hard right, fer fuck sake! Is that even possible?


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 24, 2016)

Have they wrote so badly on purpose - i can def see the way it's read above as being arguable.


----------



## agricola (Jun 24, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> It is misleading it says the shall be negotiations but the "4. For the purposes of paragraphs 2 and 3, the member of the European Council or of the Council representing the withdrawing Member State shall not participate in the discussions of the European Council or Council or in decisions concerning it."
> 
> Then the qualified majority stuff following can only refer to an agreement of other members.



I think that refers to discussions around their side of the negotiations and the framing of their offer / conditions etc, rather than the negotiations (edit: between the state wanting to withdraw and the EU) themselves.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 24, 2016)

agricola said:


> I think that refers to discussions around their side of the negotiations and the framing of their offer / conditions etc, rather than the negotiations (edit: between the state wanting to withdraw and the EU) themselves.


That's what i think it means to say too. But does it? And just looking at that and how little they cared to think about someone leaving tells its own story.


----------



## elbows (Jun 24, 2016)

This BBC graphic might help if its accurate.


----------



## Sue (Jun 24, 2016)

elbows said:


> I also suggest that an appetite for change was further whipped up by the way the energy flowed through the Scottish referendum and those that observed both it and the mainstream media words spoken about it. Anti-climaxes can be demotivating but sometimes they are fertiliser for the next opportunity.



I was in Scotland during the Indyref campaign and in London for this one. During Indyref, both sides were energised -- people were debating the issues at length and in depth on buses, cafes, pubs, everywhere. People were interested and enthused. (I was in one of the strongest In areas too.)

Here, it was completely different. Little energy that I could see -- I live in one of the strongest Remain areas so you'd think there'd be at least some energy or interest but I really didn't see it at all. There seemed to be little discussion or interest in the whole thing.

Maybe things were different in Leave areas?


----------



## elbows (Jun 24, 2016)

Sue said:


> Here, it was completely different. Little energy that I could see -- I live in one of the strongest Remain areas so you'd think there'd be at least some energy or interest but I really didn't see it at all. There seemed to be little discussion or interest in the whole thing.
> 
> Maybe things were different in Leave areas?



I'm in a 66% leave area but I wasn't in Scotland for that campaign so I can't compare like you could. None of the real-life discussions about the referendum I had would win any awards for depth, but there was greater interest in the sense that most people at work discussed it, especially in the final days, and many of them dont usually talk about anything overtly political with me. This rather weak anecdotal evidence is backed up by the turnout figures I suppose, and the result.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 24, 2016)

Sue said:


> I was in Scotland during the Indyref campaign and in London for this one. During Indyref, both sides were energised -- people were debating the issues at length and in depth on buses, cafes, pubs, everywhere. People were interested and enthused. (I was in one of the strongest In areas too.)
> 
> Here, it was completely different. Little energy that I could see -- I live in one of the strongest Remain areas so you'd think there'd be at least some energy or interest but I really didn't see it at all. There seemed to be little discussion or interest in the whole thing.
> 
> Maybe things were different in Leave areas?


I've got two areas 

1) bristol Not really. The narrative was set from early - old ladies and former army types supported leave - ha ha laugh at them

2) weston super mare - nice people in town ( a town that's got considerably rougher and poorer since 1997) with a stall - real debate in the few pubs and places  i go in. Place has changed massively - bristol not so much. Or maybe one used to fast change and one never experienced it.


----------



## Skyfallsz (Jun 24, 2016)

realitybites said:


> Feeling the same, but that didn't stop me voting out, I guess I'm one of the citizens with fundamental problems.. Today I started questioning how and why it even got to the point where I could agree with any camp supported by Falange. I always felt far left in terms of political slant, but without a liberal and balanced, easy ohsey existence that is possibly a saviour of many middle class lefty ideologies, mine swung so far left with nowhere to go that it got angry and turned into hard right, fer fuck sake! Is that even possible?



I believe that it has historical precedent


----------



## coley (Jun 24, 2016)

elbows said:


> This BBC graphic might help if its accurate.


Regarding article 50, didn't Cameron vow to invoke it immediately should we vote to leave?


----------



## Sue (Jun 24, 2016)

elbows said:


> I'm in a 66% leave area but I wasn't in Scotland for that campaign so I can't compare like you could. None of the real-life discussions about the referendum I had would win any awards for depth, but there was greater interest in the sense that most people at work discussed it, especially in the final days, and many of them dont usually talk about anything overtly political with me. This rather weak anecdotal evidence is backed up by the turnout figures I suppose, and the result.



I'm in a 78% remain area in London. Not a single hand delivered leaflet through the door, a couple of people handing out leaflets (both sides) outside my local station and that was about it. Found the lack of interest/engagement quite strange.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 24, 2016)

coley said:


> Regarding article 50, didn't Cameron vow to invoke it immediately should we vote to leave?



Apparently not! He's left it to his predecessor!


----------



## elbows (Jun 24, 2016)

coley said:


> Regarding article 50, didn't Cameron vow to invoke it immediately should we vote to leave?



Dunno but the Sun seems to have a front page suggesting that his sentiment today was 'why should I do the hard shit?'

The initial attempt at a timetable looks to me like its giving more consideration to politicians getting their nice summer holiday and fitting things to the tory party conference schedule than it does the realities of external pressures to bring some quick certainties back to the picture. For now I'm not sure how viable the long delay that the October plan demands will be.


----------



## emanymton (Jun 24, 2016)

coley said:


> Regarding article 50, didn't Cameron vow to invoke it immediately should we vote to leave?


He also said he didn't stick his dick in a pigs head. I didn't believe him on either occasion.


----------



## coley (Jun 24, 2016)

Could be my faul


Mr.Bishie said:


> Apparently not! He's left it to his predecessor! [/QUOTe
> Could be my faulty memory but I could swear remembering him giving such an assurance, thought at the time it was just another threat?


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 24, 2016)

what will we do without eurodance?


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 24, 2016)

coley said:


> Could be my faulty memory but I could swear remembering him giving such an assurance, thought at the time it was just another threat?



No he did.


----------



## Sue (Jun 24, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> I've got two areas
> 
> 1) bristol Not really. The narrative was set from early - old ladies and former army types supported leave - ha ha laugh at them
> 
> 2) weston super mare - nice people in town ( a town that's got considerably rougher and poorer since 1997) with a stall - real debate in the few pubs and places  i go in. Place has changed massively - bristol not so much. Or maybe one used to fast change and one never experienced it.


Bristol was remain, what was WSM? Leave?


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 24, 2016)

coley said:


> Could be my faul


No he said it, but was just a daft bluff/piece of PR. Like how he wasn't going to resign as PM


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 24, 2016)

Sue said:


> Bristol was remain, what was WSM?


I can only find the figure for the council  - wsm is the arse end end of lot  of posh people and london types (north somerset) . 53% leave. I would be surprised if wsm other than outlying areas was under 65% leave. I will be keeping my eye on this.


----------



## coley (Jun 24, 2016)

elbows said:


> Dunno but the Sun seems to have a front page suggesting that his sentiment today was 'why should I do the hard shit?'
> 
> The initial attempt at a timetable looks to me like its giving more consideration to politicians getting their nice summer holiday and fitting things to the tory party conference schedule than it does the realities of external pressures to bring some quick certainties back to the picture. For now I'm not sure how viable the long delay that the October plan demands will be.



His casual assurance that he could deliver a remain vote, the ensuing panic as he and his establishment mates realised they could have backed a loser and the threats of Armageddon and the ensuing panic on the stock and currency markets that have followed, lie squarely at the feet of him and all the other Tories who slavishly followed his line  and said establishment mates.
The Japanese used to have a custom that would really suit the given situation.
But we all know they will be in comfortable well paid positions once the dust settles, bastards.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 24, 2016)

Bukakke?


----------



## killer b (Jun 24, 2016)

*boak*


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jun 24, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> what will we do without eurodance?


 
morris dancing, probably


----------



## coley (Jun 24, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> No he did.


Thought so, but why hasn't it been mentioned? Why is he been allowed a three month grace period? Couldn't be to give the EU and the remainers  a chance to come up with a once in a lifetime opportunity for the UK....should we care to reconsider our position?


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 24, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> No he did.



So he dumped that assurance today when he jacked it in?


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 24, 2016)

Mr.Bishie said:


> So he dumped that assurance today when he jacked it in?


Yes.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 24, 2016)

_enacted immediately _is the exact term i think.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 24, 2016)

Like he gives a fuck....


----------



## elbows (Jun 24, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> I can only find the figure for the council  - wsm is the arse end end of lot  of posh people and london types (north somerset) . 53% leave. I would be surprised if wsm other than outlying areas was under 65% leave. I will be keeping my eye on this.



I've seen hardly any per-ward results for anywhere. A very quick search yielded only Peterborough, so if anyone knows the areas of that place they could decode the area results makeup:

Peterborough ward results: How did your neighbourhood vote?


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 24, 2016)

elbows said:


> I've seen hardly any per-ward results for anywhere. A very quick search yielded only Peterborough, so if anyone knows the areas of that place they could decode the area makeup:
> 
> Peterborough ward results: How did your neighbourhood vote?


Ta. Any stuff like this please post up.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 24, 2016)

Yeah, ward results would be very interesting.


----------



## coley (Jun 24, 2016)

Mr.Bishie said:


> So he dumped that assurance today when he jacked it in?


But he hasn't "jacked it in" he has decided to remain as PM until October, so he should honour his commitments, yes I know, honour and Toryism is an oxymoron.


----------



## coley (Jun 24, 2016)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Like he gives a fuck....



Bit surprised that all the media types who have been slavishly rimming him these last few months haven't used it to turn on him, it's usually their style.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 24, 2016)

The media don't give a fuck either.


----------



## hot air baboon (Jun 24, 2016)

...hey we can abolish VAT now - that was imposed as a condition of entry to the Common Market....


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 24, 2016)

hot air baboon said:


> ...hey we can abolish VAT now - that was imposed as a condition of entry to the Common Market....



On your bike son!


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Jun 25, 2016)

I have to say I've found the liberal sneering truly nauseating today.  They don't like democracy when it goes against them do they? Even now they still do not get just why this has happened and what role they might have played in it instead they just carry on in the same vein.  I wasn't in favour of leave but I have to say it has been truly satisfying seeing the establishment all across the media take a kicking.  I mean FFS it made the prime minister practically cry on live television!


----------



## hot air baboon (Jun 25, 2016)

coley said:


> Couldn't be to give the EU and the remainers  a chance to come up with a once in a lifetime opportunity for the UK....should we care to reconsider our position?



....but how the hell can they allow a precedent like that to be set though....and compromising on what issues....free movement is the only game changer I would think....and its not as if we ever won any popularity contests amongst our "partners" even before this bombshell - this is the final bonfire of the member-ship card...


----------



## Dandred (Jun 25, 2016)

Letting the plebs vote has led to two tory governments and brexit.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 25, 2016)

Dandred said:


> Letting the plebs vote has led to two tory governments and brexit.


What a pathetic attempt. Go try it on the northen irish you embarrassing wreck of a man.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 25, 2016)

Dandred said:


> Letting the plebs vote has led to two tory governments and brexit.


so only the educated should be allowed to vote? wanker!


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 25, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> so only the educated should be allowed to vote? wanker!


Don't give him what he wants mate. This is his life. We may kill him by ignoring him.


----------



## ska invita (Jun 25, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> so only the educated should be allowed to vote? wanker!


btw i looked up the history of the word pleb the other day - i did not know this:

"
In ancient Rome, the term _*plebs*_ was the general body of free Roman citizens who were not patricians, as determined by the census. From the 4th century BC or earlier, known as commoners or part of lower social status

Literary references to the '*plebs'*, however, usually mean the ordinary citizens of Rome as a whole, as distinguished from the elite—a sense retained by "plebeian" in English. In the very earliest days of Rome, plebeians were any tribe without advisers to the King. In time, the word – which is related to the Greek word for crowd, plethos – came to mean the common people."

I think there was an attempt to reclaim the word pleb by a section of the UK left at some point - maybe around the 30s or 40s? Ive seen books from that time published under the name Plebs, such as A Plebs Guide to Economics, Pleb's Atlas etc etc.


----------



## 2hats (Jun 25, 2016)

coley said:


> Thought so, but why hasn't it been mentioned? Why is he been allowed a three month grace period? Couldn't be to give the EU and the remainers  a chance to come up with a once in a lifetime opportunity for the UK....should we care to reconsider our position?


I got the impression from assorted interviews on Ch4 news and newsnight this past evening that the EU would like to be shot of the Former United Kingdom of England and its Dominions ASAP.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 25, 2016)

> “We are inextricably part of Europe. [No one] will ever be able to take us ‘out of Europe’, for Europe is where we are and where we have always been.”



 Fuck you thatcher.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 25, 2016)

2hats said:


> I got the impression from assorted interviews on Ch4 news and newsnight this past evening that the EU would like to be shot of the Former United Kingdom of England and its Dominions ASAP.


You can't believe public words atm, though, surely. They have _form_ to consider.


----------



## Odrade (Jun 25, 2016)

Being against the EU as a project Brexit is, while a surprise, heartening to me. If I had been living in the middle of the xenophobic campaign you had, I would probably be more able to identify with the fear many people of the left display, but still: What the English left seems to be most frightened of is democracy, as such. To be given over to the judgement of people of England, who are portrayed as racist, reactionary, irresponsible and stupid. I don´t know whether this is the case. I certainly hope not. Regardless: If that is the case, the people of England should still be the ones deciding the politics of England. The general sentiment of the English left seems to be grieving the loss of the power of Brussels who could be guaranteed to hold your own majority in check. the main arguments of the general "left" reads as fear of being an actual democracy. Without the UK. Without the EU. To hold on to such a fear of the people is a frightening place for any left to be. Anyway: Good luck, and welcome to the outside, from Norway (it´s probably going to be not that terrible.)


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 25, 2016)

2hats said:


> I got the impression from assorted interviews on Ch4 news and newsnight this past evening that the EU would like to be shot of the Former United Kingdom of England and its Dominions ASAP.


Not actual real term interests and people who speak for them. Just a generic Eu? The Eu member states? The commissioners? The MEPs? The states? Who exactly?


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 25, 2016)

Odrade said:


> Being against the EU as a project Brexit is, while a surprise, heartening to me. If I had been living in the middle of the xenophobic campaign you had, I would probably be more able to identify with your fear and your general sentiments in this matter, but still: What the English left seems to be most frightened of here is democracy, as such. To be given over to the machinations and judgement of the actual people of England, who are portrayed as racist, reactionary, irresponsible and stupid. I don´t know whether this is the case. I certainly hope not. Regardless: If that is the case, the people of England should still be the ones deciding the politics of England. The general sentiment of the English left seems to be grieving the loss of the power of Brussels who could be guaranteed to hold your own majority in check. Your arguments reads as fear of being an actual democracy. Without the UK. Without the EU. To hold on to such a fear of the people is a frightening place for any left to be. Anyway: Good luck, and welcome to the outside, from Norway (it´s probably going to be not that terrible.)


Thanks for posting Odrade


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Jun 25, 2016)

Odrade said:


> Being against the EU as a project Brexit is, while a surprise, heartening to me. If I had been living in the middle of the xenophobic campaign you had, I would probably be more able to identify with your fear and your general sentiments in this matter, but still: What the English left seems to be most frightened of here is democracy, as such. To be given over to the machinations and judgement of the actual people of England, who are portrayed as racist, reactionary, irresponsible and stupid. I don´t know whether this is the case. I certainly hope not. Regardless: If that is the case, the people of England should still be the ones deciding the politics of England. The general sentiment of the English left seems to be grieving the loss of the power of Brussels who could be guaranteed to hold your own majority in check. Your arguments reads as fear of being an actual democracy. Without the UK. Without the EU. To hold on to such a fear of the people is a frightening place for any left to be. Anyway: Good luck, and welcome to the outside, from Norway (it´s probably going to be not that terrible.)


You've described centrist liberals not the left.

Edit: Actually you didn't I misread. Bed time for me.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 25, 2016)

> the English left seems to be grieving the loss of the power of Brussels who could be guaranteed to hold your own majority in check. Your arguments reads as fear of being an actual democracy. Without the UK. Without the EU. To hold on to such a fear of the people is a frightening place for any left to be


Beautiful words.


----------



## 2hats (Jun 25, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Not actual real term interests and people who speak for them. Just a generic Eu? The Eu member states? The commissioners? The MEPs? The states? Who exactly?


Interesting accusatory style you have there. But you'll not get a rise from me.

I'm reporting an observation. From comments made by representatives of both elected administrations of EU member state governments, MEPs, as well as various experienced European journalists.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 25, 2016)

Odrade said:


> Being against the EU as a project Brexit is, while a surprise, heartening to me. If I had been living in the middle of the xenophobic campaign you had, I would probably be more able to identify with the fear many people of the left display, but still: What the English left seems to be most frightened of is democracy, as such. To be given over to the judgement of people of England, who are portrayed as racist, reactionary, irresponsible and stupid. I don´t know whether this is the case. I certainly hope not. Regardless: If that is the case, the people of England should still be the ones deciding the politics of England. The general sentiment of the English left seems to be grieving the loss of the power of Brussels who could be guaranteed to hold your own majority in check. the main arguments of the general "left" reads as fear of being an actual democracy. Without the UK. Without the EU. To hold on to such a fear of the people is a frightening place for any left to be. Anyway: Good luck, and welcome to the outside, from Norway *(it´s probably going to be not that terrible.*)


 this is true. 

'Fear of being an actual democracy' sums this up though. First leader I remember is Thatcher, and it's been shit all the way along from there. I do not feel that I am in an actual democracy at all. If this is the start of that??? That feels like insane optimism atm, with moves to ditch Corbyn already, no doubt to be replaced by a right-wing type if they succeed, and Boris Johnson on the horizon as PM for the next four years.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 25, 2016)

2hats said:


> Interesting accusatory style you have there. But you'll not get a rise from me.
> 
> I'm reporting an observation. From comments made by representatives of both elected administrations of EU member state governments, MEPs, as well as various experienced European journalists.


If you think that was observation...no,you know that it wasn't.


----------



## 2hats (Jun 25, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> If you think that was observation...no,you know that it wasn't.


Your problem. Not mine.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 25, 2016)

2hats said:


> Your problem. Not mine.





> I got the impression from assorted interviews on Ch4 news and newsnight this past evening that the EU would like to be shot of the Former United Kingdom of England and its Dominions ASAP.



Spot the bit where it goes beyond reporting


----------



## Dandred (Jun 25, 2016)

Well done plebs! 

EU referendum: Moody's cut UK's credit outlook to 'negative' - BBC News


----------



## Dandred (Jun 25, 2016)

Well done for drawing those cocks!


----------



## Poi E (Jun 25, 2016)

emanymton said:


> As someone who pretends to be a Marxist and sees the world primarily as a conflict between labour and capital I think the EU exist primarily (not exclusively) to serve the interests of capital. I belive therefore that the prospects (and I stress prospects only) for labour are better outside the the EU, as it is one less layer to deal with. The only way in which the EU could be made to implement and reforms beneficial to labour is by being forced to by working class struggle, and it will be far less responsive to those pressures than individual states. Un fact there is a pretty compelling argument that it could not be shifted at all, certainly nothing less than a mass united Europe wide movement could do it.



The UK is a polity designed to serve the interests of capital and to remove local organisation in the regions and concentrate power near the home of elites. In many ways it was and is the archetype. The chances of a working class movement succeeding have not improved. Maybe not worsened, but not improved. Well, when deregulation hits health and safety it will worsen the lot of many in the working class.


----------



## keybored (Jun 25, 2016)

Dandred said:


> View attachment 88846
> Well done for drawing those cocks!


I could be wrong, but I'm sure the amount of spoiled ballots were so small they wouldn't have made a difference to the final outcome if they were actual votes for either side.

Also regarding your infographic thing; just lol.


----------



## Dandred (Jun 25, 2016)

Cornwall voted for Brexit, and is now pleading for reassurance it won’t be ‘worse off’


----------



## Poi E (Jun 25, 2016)

Dandred said:


> Cornwall voted for Brexit, and is now pleading for reassurance it won’t be ‘worse off’



And the answer from Westminster will be "fuck off, you distant region. But you can start polluting your beaches again if you want."


----------



## alfajobrob (Jun 25, 2016)

I love the taste of Brexit in the morning... it smells like victory.


----------



## Falcon (Jun 25, 2016)

weltweit said:


> Interesting graphic, basically young people got shafted!


Not only did they get shafted, but they know it.



> I swear old people are meant to give you werthers originals and knitted jumpers and not economic instability and widespread unemployment.



And from the FT:


----------



## Falcon (Jun 25, 2016)

Very interesting argument for a second referendum.

And where to demand one.


----------



## stethoscope (Jun 25, 2016)

Falcon said:


> Very interesting argument for a second referendum.



Hurray for tax avoidance barristers!


----------



## emanymton (Jun 25, 2016)

Falcon said:


> Not only did they get shafted, but they know it.
> 
> 
> 
> And from the FT:


What a disengeious pile of shit. Lost the right to live and work in 27 countries?  Because no one from the UK lives and works in America or Australia, or other non-eu counties. And we have not swapped one distant elite for another, we have gone from 2 distant elites to just one. As for the working class suffering the most, well it's too early to know just how things will go, but I suspect that for most working class people life will go on pretty much the way it did before. So far the only people complaing about losing out is people worry about the value of their savings and stock portfolios.


----------



## Falcon (Jun 25, 2016)

emanymton said:


> As for the working class suffering the most, well it's too early to know just how things will go, but I suspect that for most working class people life will go on pretty much the way it did before. So far the only people complaing about losing out is people worry about the value of their savings and stock portfolios.



We are about to undergo one of the most savage lurches to the right in the modern history of this country “riding a wave of triumphalism and euphoria". They are *already* planning NHS privatisation, assault on workers rights, abandonment of the Human Rights Charter, and of tax justice reforms, which EU membership prevented them from implementing.

And the working class is providing the mandate.

Rarely has the statement “Turkey’s don’t vote for Christmas” been so wrong.

And, no, there are more people complaining than that:


----------



## weltweit (Jun 25, 2016)

emanymton said:


> What a disengeious pile of shit. Lost the right to live and work in 27 countries?  Because no one from the UK lives and works in America or Australia, or other non-eu counties. ..


So you do expect Brits will no longer have the ability to live and work in France Germany or Spain, our closest neighbours?


----------



## killer b (Jun 25, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> Hurray for tax avoidance barristers!


He's generally on the other side tbf to Maugham. Often has interesting things to say too - I think he's clutching at straws here though


----------



## emanymton (Jun 25, 2016)

weltweit said:


> So you do expect Brits will no longer have the ability to live and work in France Germany or Spain, our closest neighbours?


No I expect they will have that ability, true it may be more difficult. But to try and pretend that that will be impossible in the future as that article does it total crap.


----------



## Poi E (Jun 25, 2016)

emanymton said:


> No I expect they will have that ability, true it may be more difficult. But to try and pretend that that will be impossible in the future as that article does it total crap.



Probably will retain it as the UK government will carry on accepting the free flow of labour as a condition of being a member of the EEA.


----------



## weltweit (Jun 25, 2016)

Poi E said:


> Probably will retain it as the UK government will carry on accepting the free flow of labour as a condition of being a member of the EEA.


I don't see that the exit winners of the referendum on which massive numbers of people voted to stop inward EU immigration can accept the continued free flow of labour from the EU.


----------



## Poi E (Jun 25, 2016)

weltweit said:


> I don't see that the exit winners of the referendum on which massive numbers of people voted to stop inward EU immigration can accept the continued free flow of labour from the EU.



Do you think they honestly give a fuck?


----------



## weltweit (Jun 25, 2016)

Poi E said:


> Do you think they honestly give a fuck?


who?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 25, 2016)

weltweit said:


> I don't see that the exit winners of the referendum on which massive numbers of people voted to stop inward EU immigration can accept the continued free flow of labour from the EU.


haven't you learnt a thing from Greece? With the EU you get what you're given.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 25, 2016)

weltweit said:


> I don't see that the exit winners of the referendum on which massive numbers of people voted to stop inward EU immigration can accept the continued free flow of labour from the EU.


How do you think they'll be able to exercise that choice?


----------



## weltweit (Jun 25, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> How do you think they'll be able to exercise that choice?


Border controls and their points system. How else?


----------



## Poi E (Jun 25, 2016)

weltweit said:


> who?



Those who wield economic power via their proxies in government.


----------



## Combustible (Jun 25, 2016)

Falcon said:


> They are *already* planning NHS privatisation, assault on workers rights, abandonment of the Human Rights Charter, and of tax justice reforms, which EU membership prevented them from implementing.


How did EU membership prevent NHS privatisation or tax reform (well apart from preventing lowering of VAT)?


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 25, 2016)

weltweit said:


> Border controls and their points system. How else?


Not what i asked. I asked how a democratic mandate to do a particular thing can be enforced against the local and international state should they choose to ignore it? In our wonderful democracies of course (oh yeah, i hate the british civil service as well grrr).


----------



## weltweit (Jun 25, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Not what i asked. I asked how a democratic mandate to do a particular thing can be enforced against the local and international state should they choose to ignore it? In our wonderful democracies of course (oh yeah, i hate the british civil service as well grrr).



Erm, that isn't what you asked.

I said:



weltweit said:


> I don't see that the exit winners of the referendum on which massive numbers of people voted to stop inward EU immigration can accept the continued free flow of labour from the EU.



To which you responded:



butchersapron said:


> How do you think they'll be able to exercise that choice?


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 25, 2016)

That's exactly what i asked.

I didn't ask about what technical measures were required on the assumption that that democratic mandate would be followed through on. Which is how you replied.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 25, 2016)

Falcon said:


> Not only did they get shafted, but they know it.
> 
> 
> 
> And from the FT:


Appalling tosh. So voting to leave the EU is anti- intellectual?


----------



## Reiabuzz (Jun 25, 2016)

Yes


----------



## emanymton (Jun 25, 2016)

weltweit said:


> I don't see that the exit winners of the referendum on which massive numbers of people voted to stop inward EU immigration can accept the continued free flow of labour from the EU.


Leave campaign rows back on key immigration and NHS pledges


----------



## no-no (Jun 25, 2016)

Dandred said:


> View attachment 88846
> Well done for drawing those cocks!



Yep, lets 


Falcon said:


> Not only did they get shafted, but they know it.
> 
> 
> 
> And from the FT:





Falcon said:


> Not only did they get shafted, but they know it.
> 
> 
> 
> And from the FT:



No mentions of the anti democratic vote at all?


----------



## weltweit (Jun 25, 2016)

emanymton said:


> Leave campaign rows back on key immigration and NHS pledges


I don't think that 1) "the leave campaign" is a cohesive centrally planned entity and 2) Daniel Hannan is a tosser I don't think he speaks for the will of the electorate!


----------



## weltweit (Jun 25, 2016)

Bloody Hannan is on my radio right now, already had enough of him!


----------



## seventh bullet (Jun 25, 2016)

emanymton said:


> What a disengeious pile of shit. Lost the right to live and work in 27 countries?  Because no one from the UK lives and works in America or Australia, or other non-eu counties. And we have not swapped one distant elite for another, we have gone from 2 distant elites to just one. As for the working class suffering the most, well it's too early to know just how things will go, but I suspect that for most working class people life will go on pretty much the way it did before. So far the only people complaing about losing out is people worry about the value of their savings and stock portfolios.



You can't scare people about what they have already been experiencing for years. Unless you have little idea of how millions of people live today.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jun 25, 2016)

Bichrist it's like some people have just noticed we have a right wing government doing mean things. Almost as though until it had the potential to affect them, it neither mattered nor even existed.


----------



## Sprocket. (Jun 25, 2016)

As Frankie Boyle wrote.
It is a rare politician who can see why you don't give a fuck about the Maastricht Treaty when your giro hasn't turned up!


----------



## seventh bullet (Jun 25, 2016)

S☼I said:


> Bichrist it's like some people have just noticed we have a right wing government doing mean things. Almost as though until it had the potential to affect them, it neither mattered nor even existed.



And offended at the existence of others not like them. Not that they really matter anyway.


----------



## elbows (Jun 25, 2016)

Combustible said:


> How did EU membership prevent NHS privatisation or tax reform (well apart from preventing lowering of VAT)?



Not much mention of TTIP on this front at the moment either.


----------



## Reiabuzz (Jun 25, 2016)




----------



## Reiabuzz (Jun 25, 2016)

Fucking idiots. You should hang your heads in shame.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 25, 2016)

On at the screen on the green, Islington: independence day resurgence


----------



## Flavour (Jun 25, 2016)

The future now depends on the whims of the EU leadership, who may decide two general courses of action:

1) Punish the UK, properly shaft it, and hope that the fallout somehow benefits the Eurozone (it won't though)
2) Try to exercise some damage limitation by allowing the UK to continue some kind of special relationship with the EU by remaining in the EEA and therefore an active participant in several core components in EU policy (seems less likely to me, but surely what the UK leadership want, not that they'll have any say)

Is Tusk an angry man?


----------



## Flavour (Jun 25, 2016)

Reiabuzz said:


> Fucking idiots. You should hang your heads in shame.



You're talking to the Tory party I assume. Yes. They should hang their heads in shame. Dreadful lot.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 25, 2016)

Reiabuzz said:


> Fucking idiots. You should hang your heads in shame.


Yeh Yeh change the record it's getting dull


----------



## Reiabuzz (Jun 25, 2016)

I take you it voted for Farage?


----------



## agricola (Jun 25, 2016)

Flavour said:


> The future now depends on the whims of the EU leadership, who may decide two general courses of action:
> 
> 1) Punish the UK, properly shaft it, and hope that the fallout somehow benefits the Eurozone (it won't though)
> 2) Try to exercise some damage limitation by allowing the UK to continue some kind of special relationship with the EU by remaining in the EEA and therefore an active participant in several core components in EU policy (seems less likely to me, but surely what the UK leadership want, not that they'll have any say)
> ...



They are dumb enough to try option (1), but the sums on both sides that are at risk are so large that sanity would prevail sooner rather than later and fair negotiations will take place.  Also I think there is a realization over there that this is something that had to happen if the EU project was ever to move significantly forward - we were never going to be part of further political integration (at least at a serious level), nor were we ever likely to be part of the Euro.  

I would be amazed if option (2) comes about unless there is a complete collapse of government here, there would be absolutely no point in leaving the EU just to join the EEA.  I think if we do leave we will end up with a non-EEA trade deal that largely matches what we have now, except for no free movement of people but with a liberal work visa regime that is as close to free movement as our government can get away with.


----------



## Wilf (Jun 25, 2016)

A piece here on how Johnson never imagined it would go leave, may not have actually wanted it and is now shitting himself:

A pyrrhic victory? Boris Johnson wakes up to the costs of Brexit


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 25, 2016)

Reiabuzz said:


> I take you it voted for Farage?


Nothing to do with it how I voted (no option for nf on my ballot paper btw). You're just being rather dull and in no way making a progressive contribution to the discussion.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 25, 2016)

Wilf said:


> A piece here on how Johnson never imagined it would go leave, may not have actually wanted it and is now shitting himself:
> 
> A pyrrhic victory? Boris Johnson wakes up to the costs of Brexit


He is shitting himself; I understand until at least Feb this year he was a known remainer


----------



## Reiabuzz (Jun 25, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Nothing to do with it how I voted (no option for nf on my ballot paper btw). You're just being rather dull and in no way making a progressive contribution to the discussion.



I'll take that as a yes. 

Go away.


----------



## inva (Jun 25, 2016)

Reiabuzz said:


> I'll take that as a yes.
> 
> Go away.


keep plugging away


----------



## Wilf (Jun 25, 2016)

Flavour said:


> The future now depends on the whims of the EU leadership, who may decide two general courses of action:
> 
> 1) Punish the UK, properly shaft it, and hope that the fallout somehow benefits the Eurozone (it won't though)
> 2) Try to exercise some damage limitation by allowing the UK to continue some kind of special relationship with the EU by remaining in the EEA and therefore an active participant in several core components in EU policy (seems less likely to me, but surely what the UK leadership want, not that they'll have any say)
> ...


Neither British nor European elites want this to happen.  There are undoubtedly (theoretical) mechanisms to stop it - exit negotiations that go wrong, new offers, something being put to a general election etc. However the situational logic on either side means this almost certainly won't happen.  Euro bods want it to happen fast to restore some kind of stability and can't hang around.  Cameron's pissed off and won't do anything - and an incoming PM Johnson can hardly open the whole thing up again. Politicians are unprincipled enough to overturn the result, but in practice won't be able to.  Given that the whole thing is likely, though not certain, to see Scotland leaving, calling the ref was an astonishing miscalculation by Cameron.  It's not just his absolute disconnection from working class voters (and voters in general) its the lack of political touch.  If Blair had been running an equally euro-divided tory party, he'd never have gone anywhere near offering a referendum.  Along with Johnson's involvement in the process being nothing other than a piece of extended opportunism, the whole episode is about the stupidity of our leaders.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 25, 2016)

Reiabuzz said:


> I take you it voted for Farage?


He wasn't running for election you fool


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 25, 2016)

Reiabuzz said:


> I'll take that as a yes.
> 
> Go away.


No, I just told you I did not vote for Farage.

But carry on as you will and see how far the 'bastards' motif carries you.


----------



## Plumdaff (Jun 25, 2016)

Isn't there form with the EU for referendum shenanigans? Could we be in for threats, shock and awe then a 'breakthrough'  in negotiations, with another vote on the table, in the hope we'll be cowed. Isn't that what all the EU haste is about? 

I don't want the above, I think it would be disgraceful, it just strikes me as the type of cynical thing politicians might do. Or maybe I'm over thinking it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 25, 2016)

Plumdaff said:


> Isn't there form with the EU for referendum shenanigans? Could we be in for threats, shock and awe then a 'breakthrough'  in negotiations, with another vote on the table, in the hope we'll be cowed. Isn't that what all the EU haste is about?
> 
> I don't want the above, I think it would be disgraceful, it just strikes me as the type of cynical thing politicians might do. Or maybe I'm over thinking it.


Yes


----------



## Dogsauce (Jun 25, 2016)

emanymton said:


> I suspect that for most working class people life will go on pretty much the way it did before.



Even those not born here who've come in to work from the continent? They seem to be excluded from a lot of the narrative here.


----------



## Dogsauce (Jun 25, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> He is shitting himself; I understand until at least Feb this year he was a known remainer



I reckon some old school chums that work in the City now might cross him off the Xmas card list. I bet a few have had words since the results.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 25, 2016)

Dogsauce said:


> I reckon some old school chums that work in the City now might cross him off the Xmas card list. I bet a few have had words since the results.


I look forward to a mob of enraged remainers doing unto his house what the gordon rioters did to the lord chief justice's


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 25, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> I look forward to a mob of enraged remainers doing unto his house what the gordon rioters did to the lord chief justice's


I always assumed they were gin riots till reading EP Thompson and discovering they were in fact sectarian riots. I liked it better when I imagined gin riots.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 25, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> I always assumed they were gin riots till reading EP Thompson and discovering they were in fact sectarian riots. I liked it better when I imagined gin riots.


Have to admit that I knew little of the Gordon riots till I read _Barnaby Rudge._


----------



## Poi E (Jun 25, 2016)

Plumdaff said:


> Isn't there form with the EU for referendum shenanigans? Could we be in for threats, shock and awe then a 'breakthrough'  in negotiations, with another vote on the table, in the hope we'll be cowed. Isn't that what all the EU haste is about?
> 
> I don't want the above, I think it would be disgraceful, it just strikes me as the type of cynical thing politicians might do. Or maybe I'm over thinking it.



Doubt it. Would encourage every member state to hold referenda in the hopes of negotiating concessions.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 25, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> He is shitting himself; I understand until at least Feb this year he was a known remainer


Maybe, but Hinsliff's thesis sounds very weak...


> “_He thought what all those reluctant Brexiters thought: it would be a vote for remain, he would be seen as having stood up for a principle.” *After which leave’s newest martyr could simply have bided his time for a year or so before being triumphantly installed in Downing Street.*_


Had the vote had gone the other way, the victorious Cameroonian faction would have cast him as a dangerous, traitorous turn-coat; he'd have been finished and cast off to 'journalism'.


----------



## Plumdaff (Jun 25, 2016)

Poi E said:


> Doubt it. Would encourage every member state to hold referenda in the hopes of negotiating concessions.



That's why the shock and awe has to genuinely hurt. We must be made an example of, even though that will hurt the EU. It has to be tail between our legs with the EU being magnanimous. I'm not saying I think it's a great tactic. I think it's one our and EU politicians might go for.


----------



## Poi E (Jun 25, 2016)

The U.K. looks pretty fucking toxic right now as it starts to fragment regionally. Not sure the EU has much appetite for holding together the patchwork of a union.


----------



## agricola (Jun 25, 2016)

Plumdaff said:


> That's why the shock and awe has to genuinely hurt. We must be made an example of, even though that will hurt the EU. It has to be tail between our legs with the EU being magnanimous. I'm not saying I think it's a great tactic. I think it's one our and EU politicians might go for.



This is what the defeated are going around saying, but I am not sure how true it is.  We are the second biggest economy in Europe, getting into a trade row with us would hurt them - especially the southern EU nations and the French - and further boost euroscepticism there, which was already running (in Greece and France anyway) higher than it was here.  

I am also not sure how the federalists could ever see us leaving as a bad thing, as it removes the biggest block to ever closer union from their path.


----------



## Poi E (Jun 25, 2016)

Discriminating against British goods and services would also give member states new markets.


----------



## emanymton (Jun 25, 2016)

Dogsauce said:


> Even those not born here who've come in to work from the continent? They seem to be excluded from a lot of the narrative here.


A lot of people are worried about their future, which is very said. It is one reason why although I got the result I wanted I can't really feel happy about it. But they are worrying unnecessarily in my opinion. They are not going to suddenly start deporting people. It angers me that the rhetoric from both camps has put this idea in people's minds.


----------



## agricola (Jun 25, 2016)

Poi E said:


> Discriminating against British goods and services would also give member states new markets.



That might be an option for the Germans, but it isn't likely to be an option for many of the others.


----------



## Reiabuzz (Jun 25, 2016)

> "That this could happen in the wake of the brutal murder of a promising young British politician by a right-wing maniac Brexit supporter is nauseating. That it came in the wake of massive warnings from markets and experts worldwide that the costs would be enormous is disappointing. That it came in a country full of people who were literate enough to read even a little bit about what it might cost the U.K. to leave the EU is deeply unsettling.”



Brinsanity

Well done guys


----------



## YouSir (Jun 25, 2016)

Reiabuzz said:


> Brinsanity
> 
> Well done guys



Thank you.


----------



## Wilf (Jun 25, 2016)

Plumdaff said:


> Isn't there form with the EU for referendum shenanigans? Could we be in for threats, shock and awe then a 'breakthrough'  in negotiations, with another vote on the table, in the hope we'll be cowed. Isn't that what all the EU haste is about?
> 
> I don't want the above, I think it would be disgraceful, it just strikes me as the type of cynical thing politicians might do. Or maybe I'm over thinking it.


Ireland rejected the Treaty of Lisbon - and so the voters were told to have another go.  I was musing yesterday whether something similar might happen - not another referenda but something being put to the voters in a general election.  I think pretty much all of British and European capital would like to find a way to Britain staying in but there's no clear route to how that could happen or who would lead the charge.  That leaves EU leaders having to reluctantly say get the fuck out of here ASAP.  Who knows, there just _might_ be some kind of deal for associate status or to leave most of the trading arrangements in place for 5 years - but there's nobody driving at the moment.  Capitalism abhors a vacuum or summat.


----------



## seventh bullet (Jun 25, 2016)

Who were you the last time?

Reiabuzz


----------



## YouSir (Jun 25, 2016)

Making a resolution to quit social media for a few weeks, can't hack the nonsense. Some people (remain voters) seem almost gleeful in prophesying the return of the death penalty, massive recession and rivers of blood so they can say 'told you so'. Makes it sound as if there's nothing between the UK in the EU and a fascist state. A surprise to most of the world I suspect.


----------



## Wilf (Jun 25, 2016)

Would be interesting to hear the panicked conversations going on between London and Brussels at the moment, though even that isn't going well - Jonathan Hill has resigned as a Commissioner:

Britain's EU commissioner has quit following Brexit vote


----------



## Yossarian (Jun 25, 2016)

agricola said:


> This is what the defeated are going around saying, but I am not sure how true it is.  We are the second biggest economy in Europe, getting into a trade row with us would hurt them - especially the southern EU nations and the French - and further boost euroscepticism there, which was already running (in Greece and France anyway) higher than it was here.
> 
> I am also not sure how the federalists could ever see us leaving as a bad thing, as it removes the biggest block to ever closer union from their path.



Could explain why the latest line from the EU to the UK appears to be GTFO.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 25, 2016)

Wilf said:


> Would be interesting to hear the panicked conversations going on between London and Brussels at the moment, though even that isn't going well - Jonathan Hill has resigned as a Commissioner:
> 
> Britain's EU commissioner has quit following Brexit vote



Had no choice really, so no great shock. He could hardly stroll in to the office on Monday morning like nothing's happened...


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 25, 2016)

agricola said:


> I am also not sure how the federalists could ever see us leaving as a bad thing, as it removes the biggest block to ever closer union from their path.



Junker certainly doesn't like us, and not just because of the disgraceful shit the Sun wrote about his father either. We were always going to be the big stumbling block to closer union.


----------



## danny la rouge (Jun 25, 2016)

Yossarian said:


> Could explain why the latest line from the EU to the UK appears to be GTFO.


Has article 50 been invoked?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 25, 2016)

danny la rouge said:


> Has article 50 been invoked?


No


----------



## Wilf (Jun 25, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Had no choice really, so no great shock. He could hardly stroll in to the office on Monday morning like nothing's happened...


"Right, I've got doughnuts for 27, oh, sorry Jonathan I didn't think you'd be in"


----------



## danny la rouge (Jun 25, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> No


Let's try a knock knock joke; you know how *those* work, do you?


----------



## brogdale (Jun 25, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> No


Cameron explicitly ruled himself out from delivering the instruction of the electorate. It is their intention that this will only be undertaken by a new vermin leader & PM. Obviously this is counter to the interests of the EU. 



> A negotiation with the European Union will need to begin under a new prime minister, and I think it is right that this new prime minister takes the decision about when to trigger Article 50 and start the formal and legal process of leaving the E.U.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 25, 2016)

danny la rouge said:


> Let's try a knock knock joke; you know how *those* work, do you?



I reckon Pickman's model must have taken refreshment last evening...he's not so sharp today!


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 25, 2016)

brogdale said:


> I reckon Pickman's model must have taken refreshment last evening...he's not so sharp today!


I thought it yet another eusplaining article so didn't bother clicking on it, a mistake in retrospect


----------



## brogdale (Jun 25, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> I thought it yet another eusplaining article so didn't bother clicking on it, a mistake in retrospect


Absence of any denial noted.


----------



## Wilf (Jun 25, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Cameron explicitly ruled himself out from delivering the instruction of the electorate. It is their intention that this will only be undertaken by a new vermin leader & PM. Obviously this is counter to the interests of the EU.
> 
> ​


I'm sure this isn't quite how Johnson saw his premiership starting off. He might not have actually shit himself since Thursday, but I bet he's had to swallow back the sick a couple of times.


----------



## Biscuitician (Jun 25, 2016)

So Cameron's quit. What about Gideon? Will he remain as chancellor or will have brexit before being possibly replaced by Boris?


----------



## bi0boy (Jun 25, 2016)

Biscuitician said:


> So Cameron's quit. What about Gideon? Will he remain as chancellor or will have brexit before being possibly replaced by Boris?



Of course he will quit, even if he waits for the new leader to sack him for stability and continuity reasons.


----------



## Biscuitician (Jun 25, 2016)

Boris enjoys new levels of popularity. I look forward to his claim for premiership:


----------



## Poi E (Jun 25, 2016)

agricola said:


> That might be an option for the Germans, but it isn't likely to be an option for many of the others.



So a good chance then. Also I'm trying to think of an industry in the UK that does not exist in Germany, France or Italy. Cars, construction/civil engineering, financial services, shipbuilding, aerospace, arms, pharmaceuticals and chems, consumer goods, electronics, farming, nuclear, renewables.

Edit. There is one. Oil. In Scotland. Oh, and whisky.


----------



## Combustible (Jun 25, 2016)

Reiabuzz said:


> Brinsanity
> 
> Well done guys



What's nauseating is using the murder of Jo Cox to tar everyone who voted to leave.


----------



## realitybites (Jun 25, 2016)

Throughout the referendum, how a brexit outcome could impact on our relationship with Scotland and Ireland was not very well covered. Personally I voted to exit, but would never of done so had I known it would effect our relationship across these borders. It would be nuts to continue with brexit if it meant a devolution of the United Kingdom.. This is surely ground for a serious reconsider is it not??


----------



## weltweit (Jun 25, 2016)

realitybites said:


> Throughout the referendum, how a brexit outcome could impact on our relationship with Scotland and Ireland was not very well covered. Personally I voted to exit, but would never of done so had I known it would effect our relationship across these borders. It would be nuts to continue with brexit if it meant a devolution of the United Kingdom.. This is surely ground for a serious reconsider is it not??



It was clear that this might happen.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jun 25, 2016)

realitybites said:


> how a brexit outcome could impact on our relationship with Scotland and Ireland was not very well covered


 
I certainly saw things somewhere in the media about both before the vote.

Different bits of the media did / didn't pick up on a lot of the whole thing - some seemed to be saying "immigrants, immigrants, immigrants" and not a lot else.  most ignored anything jeremy corbyn said, and only mentioned him in terms of blairites complaining that he wasn't (being reported as) saying very much...


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Jun 25, 2016)

realitybites said:


> Throughout the referendum, how a brexit outcome could impact on our relationship with Scotland and Ireland was not very well covered. Personally I voted to exit, but would never of done so had I known it would effect our relationship across these borders. It would be nuts to continue with brexit if it meant a devolution of the United Kingdom.. This is surely ground for a serious reconsider is it not??



It was mentioned plenty of times, particularly in Scotland's case. Even before a referendum the SNP made it crystal clear another referendum would be on the cards if they were taken out of the EU against their will. Well, here we are.


----------



## weltweit (Jun 25, 2016)

What Sturgeon said was that if Scotland voted in and the rest of the UK voted out that would be a material change of circumstances which could justify a second Scottish independence referendum.


----------



## Poi E (Jun 25, 2016)

But those indy Scots want to remain under the neo-lib yoke of the EU. What the fuck is with that?


----------



## gosub (Jun 25, 2016)

realitybites said:


> Throughout the referendum, how a brexit outcome could impact on our relationship with Scotland and Ireland was not very well covered. Personally I voted to exit, but would never of done so had I known it would effect our relationship across these borders. It would be nuts to continue with brexit if it meant a devolution of the United Kingdom.. This is surely ground for a serious reconsider is it not??



Problem we got is 2 inside single market options available one potentially 'might' stop freedom of movement -would most likely cost defo Ireland and probably Scotland - yet tories and Labour don't have much to gain from keeping them in terms of party politics and plays into SNP hands.  BUT it potentially enhances similar fractal divisions within other member states, so hopefully EU will block.  Scotland as a separate EFTA member could have worked but she's said it now.


----------



## realitybites (Jun 25, 2016)

Exciting times.. So potentially we could see a huge shift of power from the capital to move north and a portion of its business / economic market resettle in EU Scotland?


----------



## gosub (Jun 25, 2016)

realitybites said:


> Exciting times.. So potentially we could see a huge shift of power from the capital to move north and a portion of its business / economic market resettle in EU Scotland?



nope Frankfurt would still nick finance off both rUK and Scotland due to their regs, Rosyth aint a good enough port either


----------



## Wilhelmina.Trav (Jun 25, 2016)

realitybites said:


> Exciting times.. So potentially we could see a huge shift of power from the capital to move north and a portion of its business / economic market resettle in EU Scotland?



Will be interesting to see what happens. 

Evey


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Jun 25, 2016)

gosub said:


> Problem we got is 2 inside single market options available one potentially 'might' stop freedom of movement -would most likely cost defo Ireland and probably Scotland - yet tories and Labour don't have much to gain from keeping them in terms of party politics and plays into SNP hands.  BUT it potentially enhances similar fractal divisions within other member states, so hopefully EU will block.  Scotland as a separate EFTA member could have worked but she's said it now.


Unless I've missed something she said it was one option on the table and today it says she's lobbying to stay in the bloc, don't think she's keen on 2nd Indy ref? Unless I've picked you up wrong ?


----------



## brogdale (Jun 25, 2016)

Mason's _*ProgrExit *_(yes, really) musings tonight.

More Labour stuff with a bit of LibDemmery for good measure!


----------



## gosub (Jun 25, 2016)

diamarzipan said:


> Unless I've missed something she said it was one option on the table and today it says she's lobbying to stay in the bloc, don't think she's keen on 2nd Indy ref? Unless I've picked you up wrong ?



The option on the table is a scottish referendum and talk of a backdoor deal (as yet agreed by no one).  The UK-EU deal nothing on table (yet) the two inside single markets are potential.  Plus an early offer coming out of Berlin of associate - which is what we were headed for if we staying in anyway.


----------



## Coolfonz (Jun 26, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Mason's _*ProgrExit *_(yes, really) musings tonight.
> 
> More Labour stuff with a bit of LibDemmery for good measure!


"the progressive half of British politics we need a plan to put our stamp on the Brexit result – and fast."
  Desperate.


----------



## oryx (Jun 26, 2016)

The entire Brexit/Bremain issue was turned into a political football by opportunists seeking to further their own careers (I'm looking especially hard at you, Johnson and Farage).

A referendum, which can be seen as the ultimate in people power, should have been done after an independent inquest into the value of the EU to the British people, its worth, its advantages and disadvantages.

The vote has taken place in a context of half-truths and promises made for political gain (the £350 million for the NHS, the UKIP poster etc.) where people struggle to make an informed choice.

It can't have been that difficult for the government to take a considered approach and to put forward independently validated facts about what we pay to the EU and what we receive, and the constitutional implications for Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales if (as has obviously happened in Scotland and NI) they choose against the majority to remain.

Instead, people have made choices based on interpretations of the truth by careerist politicians and the media.


----------



## Falcon (Jun 26, 2016)

Combustible said:


> How did EU membership prevent NHS privatisation or tax reform (well apart from preventing lowering of VAT)?


Two things have taken place: departure from the EU; and Cameron’s collapse. Cameron’s replacement will be far more right wing. Under those more right wing policies, workers rights and tax reform will be weakened.


----------



## Falcon (Jun 26, 2016)

The39thStep said:


> Appalling tosh. So voting to leave the EU is anti- intellectual?


Gove coaching Brexit’ers to ignore expert opinion was about as close to a text-book definition of anti-intellectual as is possible to get. Democracy has entered a post-factual stage i.e. bigotry.


----------



## mk12 (Jun 26, 2016)

oryx said:


> The entire Brexit/Bremain issue was turned into a political football by opportunists seeking to further their own careers (I'm looking especially hard at you, Johnson and Farage).
> 
> A referendum, which can be seen as the ultimate in people power, should have been done after an independent inquest into the value of the EU to the British people, its worth, its advantages and disadvantages.
> 
> ...


There's a strong assumption here, and among remain supporters more generally, that the official leave campaign duped leave voters. If only voters were given the 'facts', the objective truth, the reality of the EU, then things would have turned out differently. But from my experience, people made up their own minds about the referendum without listening to Johnson, Cameron, Gove, Farage et al.


----------



## mk12 (Jun 26, 2016)

mk12 said:


> There's a strong assumption here, and among remain supporters more generally, that the official leave campaign duped leave voters. If only voters were given the 'facts', the objective truth, the reality of the EU, then things would have turned out differently. But from my experience, people made up their own minds about the referendum without listening to Johnson, Cameron, Gove, Farage et al.


If just read an article that makes a similar argument actually:



> The conviction that there was a kind of objective truth about the EU which could not be gainsaid led to a further error by the custodians of that supposed truth.  For them, the referendum would be won if the less enlightened could be led to the truth.  So, an endless procession of serious figures – the grandees whose views had always prevailed – were wheeled out to ensure that people were in no doubt as to how they should vote.  What they did not seem to realise was that, the more insistent their supposed betters were, the more likely ordinary people were to disregard what they were told.


Bryan Gould  » Their Hysterical Reaction Tells Us Why The Remainers Lost


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 26, 2016)

Falcon said:


> Two things have taken place: departure from the EU; and Cameron’s collapse. Cameron’s replacement will be far more right wing. Under those more right wing policies, workers rights and tax reform will be weakened.


As matters stand Cameron's successor would have quite a struggle with the parliamentary arithmetic to pursue the legislative course you suggest. But perhaps you could identify how you foresee the slim tory majority allowing this radical departure working.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 26, 2016)

Falcon said:


> Gove coaching Brexit’ers to ignore expert opinion was about as close to a text-book definition of anti-intellectual as is possible to get. Democracy has entered a post-factual stage i.e. bigotry.


You clearly were not with us in 2002/2003


----------



## inva (Jun 26, 2016)

oryx said:


> A referendum, which can be seen as the ultimate in people power, should have been done after an independent inquest into the value of the EU to the British people, its worth, its advantages and disadvantages.


who would have carried out this inquest - what would it mean for it to be 'independent'?

who are the British people? are all our interests compatible? is the interest of capital the interest of labour? or, more likely, would any inquest have ignored the views of working class people in favour of lecturing about the gdp, the market, the worth to business, how much eu money 'goes to' pro-leave areas, etc - after all, I think we all know what neutrality means in the eyes of the political class.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 26, 2016)

oryx said:


> The entire Brexit/Bremain issue was turned into a political football by opportunists seeking to further their own careers (I'm looking especially hard at you, Johnson and Farage).
> 
> A referendum, which can be seen as the ultimate in people power, should have been done after an independent inquest into the value of the EU to the British people, its worth, its advantages and disadvantages.
> 
> ...


An inquest traditionally carried out after a death


----------



## Sifta (Jun 26, 2016)

Good from Pilger:

Why the British said no to Europe


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 26, 2016)

Combustible said:


> What's nauseating is using the murder of Jo Cox to tar everyone who voted to leave.


Including her own constituents


----------



## mauvais (Jun 26, 2016)

mk12 said:


> There's a strong assumption here, and among remain supporters more generally, that the official leave campaign duped leave voters. If only voters were given the 'facts', the objective truth, the reality of the EU, then things would have turned out differently. But from my experience, people made up their own minds about the referendum without listening to Johnson, Cameron, Gove, Farage et al.


I think that factual enlightenment might have made a difference. Unfortunately, it would have had to have been consistently delivered over the course of the last 40 years or so.


----------



## Coolfonz (Jun 26, 2016)

Sifta said:


> Good from Pilger:
> 
> Why the British said no to Europe


Pretty good Brexit argument to be fair, does go a bit mad at the end about WW3 and Nato build up being like the Third Reich.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 26, 2016)

Sifta said:


> Good from Pilger:
> 
> Why the British said no to Europe



Yes good article, worth reading.


----------



## stethoscope (Jun 26, 2016)

Cameron, Osborne, Johnson, Gove, May: all nowhere to be seen. I presumed the Tories were still running the country in some way or another.

Cameron reportedly said as he resigned... _"Why should I do all the hard s**t?"_
Your referendum Cameron. You were PM. Own it.

Corbyn: trying to desperately steer something at a time when Labour should and need to be capitalising on the whole mess, and yet being shafted already by the right of the party - the likes of Benn and Hunt. The overnight sacking of Benn has since led to Alexander now running away from it all too. More shadow cabinet might be to come.

The utter moral bankruptcy of our politicians.


----------



## Smangus (Jun 26, 2016)

Tory leadership contest , labour just about to have one and the country divided as I've never seen it before. Can't imagine what is around the corner now and I don't see that it's going to be reconciled any time soon. Fragmentation giving ideal circumstances for the rise of extremist politics, all thanks to those idiots Cameron and Gideon.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 26, 2016)

Knew the labour right would make a serious attempt at some point. Picked their crises I suppose.This is why no amount of 'but the tories' can ever get me to vote for them.

I hope osbournes crying into his wine


----------



## Biscuitician (Jun 26, 2016)

So what do the Lexiteers need to do now to avoid being drowned out by the ascendant right wing voice in the new Tory cabinet and the division in society that leave has created or at least brought to the fore?


----------



## mauvais (Jun 26, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> Cameron, Osborne, Johnson, Gove, May: all nowhere to be seen. I presumed the Tories were still running the country in some way or another.
> 
> Cameron reportedly said as he resigned... _"Why should I do all the hard s**t?"_
> Your referendum Cameron. You were PM. Own it.


Nowhere to be seen because they have to deal with the disastrousness of their own wish fulfilment. I blame Cameron for bringing this shit about but not really for washing his hands of the outcome - it's Leave's to own. And it turns out noone wants to. Amazing.


----------



## magneze (Jun 26, 2016)

Biscuitician said:


> So what do the Lexiteers need to do now to avoid being drowned out by the ascendant right wing voice in the new Tory cabinet and the division in society that leave has created or at least brought to the fore?


Push for an early election. Might not even have to push all that hard. The new Tory leader may want a fresh mandate and it's by no means certain that they'd get another majority with the way they're split.


----------



## bi0boy (Jun 26, 2016)

magneze said:


> Push for an early election. Might not even have to push all that hard. The new Tory leader may want a fresh mandate and it's by no means certain that they'd get another majority with the way they're split.



I can see how a general election would go rn if Labour don't have it in their manifesto to reduce EU immigration as part of the negotiations


----------



## Biscuitician (Jun 26, 2016)

magneze said:


> Push for an early election. Might not even have to push all that hard. The new Tory leader may want a fresh mandate and it's by no means certain that they'd get another majority with the way they're split.



What about concerns regarding immigration?


----------



## Biscuitician (Jun 26, 2016)

bi0boy said:


> I can see how a general election would go rn if Labour don't have it in their manifesto to reduce EU immigration as part of the negotiations


Do they even have an anti austerity position (as far as a left wing capitalist party can)?


----------



## mk12 (Jun 26, 2016)

bi0boy said:


> I can see how a general election would go rn if Labour don't have it in their manifesto to reduce EU immigration as part of the negotiations


I can't see that being included in their manifesto while Corbyn is leader.


----------



## bi0boy (Jun 26, 2016)

mk12 said:


> I can't see that being included in their manifesto while Corbyn is leader.



Let's see how many Labourites believe Corbyn can convince the electorate on continued free movement.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 26, 2016)

bi0boy said:


> Let's see how many Labourites believe Corbyn can convince the electorate on continued free movement.


----------



## weltweit (Jun 26, 2016)

The39thStep said:


> View attachment 88873


Is that ALL labour areas? all the areas in the graphic voted for brexit, is it really saying that no labour areas voted remain?


----------



## magneze (Jun 26, 2016)

Biscuitician said:


> What about concerns regarding immigration?


It appears that wasn't why most people voted Leave (see specific charts on this elsewhere). There's little evidence that a "pull the drawbridge up" policy is what people voted for and so it's unlikely that any party would campaign on it.


----------



## andysays (Jun 26, 2016)

weltweit said:


> Is that ALL labour areas? all the areas in the graphic voted for brexit, is it really saying that no labour areas voted remain?



There are various Labour-supporting areas I can think of which aren't included and which voted to Remain, particularly in London, so I'm going to suggest that it's only Labour areas which supported Leave.

Even though this graphic is incomplete/misleading, it's generally true that "traditional" Labour supporters (to the extent we can even use that term anymore) tended to vote to Leave.

Whatever exactly we think that means, this is certainly an issue which will need to be addressed.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 26, 2016)

weltweit said:


> Is that ALL labour areas? all the areas in the graphic voted for brexit, is it really saying that no labour areas voted remain?


Looks like it's just the ones where leave were the majority.


----------



## weltweit (Jun 26, 2016)

magneze said:


> It appears that wasn't why most people voted Leave (see specific charts on this elsewhere). There's little evidence that a "pull the drawbridge up" policy is what people voted for and so it's unlikely that any party would campaign on it.


Can you point me towards those charts please because I haven't seen them and it is of interest!


----------



## magneze (Jun 26, 2016)

weltweit said:


> Can you point me towards those charts please because I haven't seen them and it is of interest!


http://lordashcroftpolls.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Leave-vs-Remain-podium-rankings.jpg


----------



## weltweit (Jun 26, 2016)

magneze said:


> http://lordashcroftpolls.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Leave-vs-Remain-podium-rankings.jpg


I have a problem with that specific one which I have seen before.
Namely that it is title is: "Please can you rank the following ... " indicating a question not an answer.
It also shows all leave voters preferences were the same and immigration was in second place! hardly of no importance!


----------



## magneze (Jun 26, 2016)

The other interesting thing about those is that the number 1 reason people chose to remain was the "risk of leaving" rather than any particular affinity with the EU. In talking to people here in London, that's certainly the feeling I got. Few said they were voting for the EU amongst people who voted Remain, in fact many were highly critical. Whilst there are a lot of people who have been wailing on Facebook about it, considering the lukewarm support the EU had even amongst the Remainers, is it really so surprising that Leave won?


----------



## tommers (Jun 26, 2016)

andysays said:


> There are various Labour-supporting areas I can think of which aren't included and which voted to Remain, particularly in London, so I'm going to suggest that it's only Labour areas which supported Leave.
> 
> Even though this graphic is incomplete/misleading, it's generally true that "traditional" Labour supporters (to the extent we can even use that term anymore) tended to vote to Leave.
> 
> Whatever exactly we think that means, this is certainly an issue which will need to be addressed.


Not sure that's true.  The stat I heard was that the proportion of "labour voters" who voted leave was the same as the proportion of "SNP voters".

It's in that Lord ashcroft thing.


----------



## andysays (Jun 26, 2016)

weltweit said:


> I have a problem with that specific one which I have seen before.
> Namely that it is title is: "Please can you rank the following ... " indicating a question not an answer.
> It also shows all leave voters preferences were the same and immigration was in second place! hardly of no importance!



I agree that the way it's presented is pretty simplistic - would be interesting to see the full range of possible answers and the percentages of who agreed with all of them rather than just a ranking of the top three. 

It still contradicts the crude suggestion that immigration was the number-one reason for voting to Leave, so it does tell us something


----------



## magneze (Jun 26, 2016)

weltweit said:


> I have a problem with that specific one which I have seen before.
> Namely that it is title is: "Please can you rank the following ... " indicating a question not an answer.
> It also shows all leave voters preferences were the same and immigration was in second place! hardly of no importance!


Where does it show that "all leave voters preferences were the same"?


----------



## weltweit (Jun 26, 2016)

magneze said:


> Where does it show that "all leave voters preferences were the same"?


On the right it shows leave voters.
It shows total and labour and tory voters.
It shows their top 3 reasons for voting leave.
Labour and tory voters voting leave both have the same 1,2 & 3 reasons.


----------



## magneze (Jun 26, 2016)

weltweit said:


> On the right it shows leave voters.
> It shows total and labour and tory voters.
> It shows their top 3 reasons for voting leave.
> Labour and tory voters voting leave both have the same 1,2 & 3 reasons.


It doesn't show "all leave voters preferences were the same". That's something different and it quite clearly doesn't say that at all.


----------



## andysays (Jun 26, 2016)

tommers said:


> Not sure that's true.  The stat I heard was that the proportion of "labour voters" who voted leave was the same as the proportion of "SNP voters".
> 
> It's in that Lord ashcroft thing.



Maybe I'm mistaken then. Do you have a link?

But note that I said "traditional Labour voters", which is not the same as "people who voted Labour at the last election", even though I thought it was true for that latter group as well. 

The difference is not just hair-splitting; part of the reason Labour has lost support is because it's been seen as out of step with its traditional supporters on this (and other) issues.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jun 26, 2016)

magneze said:


> The other interesting thing about those is that the number 1 reason people chose to remain was the "risk of leaving" rather than any particular affinity with the EU. In talking to people here in London, that's certainly the feeling I got. Few said they were voting for the EU amongst people who voted Remain, in fact many were highly critical. Whilst there are a lot of people who have been wailing on Facebook about it, considering the lukewarm support the EU had even amongst the Remainers, is it really so surprising that Leave won?



I may be the only person in the country who voted remain and is now glad that leave won. Just the very fact that we're in a position where a huge chunk of our economy can vanish overnight if people vote the 'wrong' way shows that shit needs to change. We were effectively being blackmailed into staying and it's never a good idea to give in to that kind of shit.

Workers rights, freedom of movement, a working health service; if we want this stuff we should fight for it, not just sit there and hope that some benevolent guiding hand will take care of it for us. If we really have 'taken back control' of this country' then we must actually take responsibility for what happens in it.


----------



## weltweit (Jun 26, 2016)

magneze said:


> It doesn't show "all leave voters preferences were the same". That's something different and it quite clearly doesn't say that at all.


You can't deny that is shows:
"Labour and tory voters voting leave both have the same 1,2 & 3 reasons."


----------



## andysays (Jun 26, 2016)

magneze said:


> It doesn't show "all leave voters preferences were the same". That's something different and it quite clearly doesn't say that at all.



I don't think that's what weltweit is saying, he's saying that the top three reasons Labour supporters gave are the same as the top three reasons Conservative supporters gave, whatever that's worth


----------



## tommers (Jun 26, 2016)

andysays said:


> Maybe I'm mistaken then. Do you have a link?
> 
> But note that I said "traditional Labour voters", which is not the same as "people who voted Labour at the last election", even though I thought it was true for that latter group as well.
> 
> The difference is not just hair-splitting; part of the reason Labour has lost support is because it's been seen as out of step with its traditional supporters on this (and other) issues.


Here, second section down 

How the United Kingdom voted on Thursday... and why - Lord Ashcroft Polls

Interesting that one is being given as a mandate for independence and the other as a betrayal of a party by its leader.

Funny that 4% of UKIP voted to remain


----------



## andysays (Jun 26, 2016)

tommers said:


> Here, second section down
> 
> How the United Kingdom voted on Thursday... and why - Lord Ashcroft Polls
> 
> Interesting that one is being given as a mandate for independence and the other as a betrayal of a party by its leader.



OK, I stand corrected on that point, but my wider point about Labour's loss of traditional supporters still stands


----------



## magneze (Jun 26, 2016)

andysays said:


> I don't think that's what weltweit is saying, he's saying that the top three reasons Labour supporters gave are the same as the top three reasons Conservative supporters gave, whatever that's worth


Yes, it shows that.


----------



## Falcon (Jun 26, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> As matters stand Cameron's successor would have quite a struggle with the parliamentary arithmetic to pursue the legislative course you suggest. But perhaps you could identify how you foresee the slim tory majority allowing this radical departure working.


Early re-election fuelled by triumphalism and euphoria giving a strengthened majority. I will concede that as the full horror of what the Brexiters voted for begins to sink in, this is now less likely. This is because Brexit is now a recognisable catastrophe, not because it is a success.



Pickman's model said:


> You clearly were not with us in 2002/2003


Hmmm. The addition of a second example is not a refutation of the first.


----------



## Biscuitician (Jun 26, 2016)

magneze said:


> It appears that wasn't why most people voted Leave (see specific charts on this elsewhere). There's little evidence that a "pull the drawbridge up" policy is what people voted for and so it's unlikely that any party would campaign on it.


But the second biggest reason is to control our own borders. The first reason regards making laws in the UK.

It's entire possible that the reasons informing both points could be, at worst, informed by the xenophobic dog whistle that's been blowing for years now. "Foreigners" making decisions about our crisps, carrots and employment.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 26, 2016)

Falcon said:


> Hmmm. The addition of a second example is not a refutation of the first.


You concluded on the basis if but one example we are in an era of 'post-politics, or bigotry'. It is my submission we have been there for many years already.


----------



## magneze (Jun 26, 2016)

Biscuitician said:


> But the second biggest reason is to control our own borders. The first reason regards making laws in the UK.
> 
> It's entire possible that the reasons informing both points could be, at worst, informed by the xenophobic dog whistle that's been blowing for years now. "Foreigners" making decisions about our crisps, carrots and employment.


At worst, a lot of things could be said. It's rarely the case though.


----------



## Falcon (Jun 26, 2016)

Important comment in the Guardian yesterday (I can’t get a permalink to work, so here it is on reddit) to the effect that Cameron killed Johnson and Gove when he committed suicide on Friday:


> ... as the day wore on, the enormity of that step started to sink in: the markets, Sterling, Scotland, the Irish border, the Gibraltar border, the frontier at Calais, the need to continue compliance with all EU regulations for a free market, re-issuing passports, Brits abroad, EU citizens in Britain, the mountain of legistlation to be torn up and rewritten ... the list grew and grew ...
> 
> ... The Conservative party election that Cameron triggered will now have one question looming over it: will you, if elected as party leader, trigger the notice under Article 50? Who will want to have the responsibility of all those ramifications and consequences on his/her head and shoulders?
> 
> ...


----------



## Falcon (Jun 26, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> You concluded on the basis if but one example we are in an era of 'post-politics, or bigotry'. It is my submission we have been there for many years already.


Conceded.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 26, 2016)

Falcon said:


> Early re-election fuelled by triumphalism and euphoria giving a strengthened majority. I will concede that as the full horror of what the Brexiters voted for begins to sink in, this is now less likely. This is because Brexit is now a recognisable catastrophe, not because it is a success.
> 
> 
> Hmmm. The addition of a second example is not a refutation of the first.


To be fair, before your anti-semitic breakdown, you were predicting in a similarly confident manner, that we would  all be dead by now.


----------



## Biscuitician (Jun 26, 2016)

If movement is going to be limited due to us leaving, how will that affect activism and solidarity actions between communities?


----------



## Falcon (Jun 26, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> To be fair, before your anti-semitic breakdown, you were predicting in a similarly confident manner, that we would  all be dead by now.


And, to be fair, you were retreating to ad-hominem attack as a substitute for argument. I see urban75 hasn’t changed much while I’ve been away, but it’s nice to be back. I’m surprised you haven’t attempted to contort this into anti-semitism -  the lack of any particular correspondence has never deterred you in the past.


----------



## Falcon (Jun 26, 2016)

One of the experts that Archmoron Gove encouraged Brexiters to ignore: Michael Dougan, Professor of European Law at the University of Liverpool, debunking ‘industrial scale’ exit myths and setting out the practical implications of leaving.


----------



## 2hats (Jun 26, 2016)

Falcon said:


> One of the experts


Apparently we don't need experts anymore. Or facts.


----------



## chilango (Jun 26, 2016)

andysays said:


> I don't think that's what weltweit is saying, he's saying that the top three reasons Labour supporters gave are the same as the top three reasons Conservative supporters gave, whatever that's worth



It's not worth anything. I took part in that survey. We were presented with a list of 3 pre-determined options and had to rank them.


----------



## Anju (Jun 26, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> I may be the only person in the country who voted remain and is now glad that leave won. Just the very fact that we're in a position where a huge chunk of our economy can vanish overnight if people vote the 'wrong' way shows that shit needs to change. We were effectively being blackmailed into staying and it's never a good idea to give in to that kind of shit.
> 
> Workers rights, freedom of movement, a working health service; if we want this stuff we should fight for it, not just sit there and hope that some benevolent guiding hand will take care of it for us. If we really have 'taken back control' of this country' then we must actually take responsibility for what happens in it.



Not really sure we were being blackmailed. We entered in agreements that were  beneficial to all parties and therefore there are bound to be some negatives for us. The only problem I saw is that there may be some costly inefficiencies in the administration of the EU.  I quite like the way money was allocated for economic development so that it targeted the poorest regions.  I was happy for Wales, Cornwall and the NE to get money and also for some of our contribution to go to poor areas in other countries. Long term plans for economic development are not really the strong point of our desperate to get elected governments. 

Taking back control worries me because I don't trust our government to always operate in the interests of the people and to an extent the EU does, mostly because there are member nations who have governments that do care for their people or have better economic policies. A great example of this is France blocking TTIP.  Out of the EU our government would have signed up without hesitation.


----------



## killer b (Jun 26, 2016)

_beneficial to all parties is_... questionable. That's why the blackmail didn't work.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jun 26, 2016)

This 38 Degrees petition to "make the government keep their promise to spend £350m on the NHS"...did anyone actually promise this? I saw it equated to the cost of a new hospital, and also the figure alongside "we'd rather spend money on our NHS" which isn't the same as "we'd rather spend THAT money on the NHS"...


----------



## elbows (Jun 26, 2016)

Larry Elliot in the Guardian going for the 'rejection of globalisation' angle.

Brexit is a rejection of globalisation


----------



## weltweit (Jun 26, 2016)

S☼I said:


> This 38 Degrees petition to "make the government keep their promise to spend £350m on the NHS"...did anyone actually promise this? I saw it equated to the cost of a new hospital, and also the figure alongside "we'd rather spend money on our NHS" which isn't the same as "we'd rather spend THAT money on the NHS"...


It wasn't a government promise, the official leave campaign wasn't the government, but Johnson was photographed next to a banner saying why not spend the 350m pw on the NHS. I have posted the tweet somewhere in here.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 26, 2016)

weltweit said:


> It wasn't a government promise, the official leave campaign wasn't the government, but Johnson was photographed next to a banner saying why not spend the 350m pw on the NHS. I have posted the tweet somewhere in here.


Yeh but did you link to the tweet, which may have been deleted, or get a screengrab of it?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 26, 2016)

S☼I said:


> This 38 Degrees petition to "make the government keep their promise to spend £350m on the NHS"...did anyone actually promise this? I saw it equated to the cost of a new hospital, and also the figure alongside "we'd rather spend money on our NHS" which isn't the same as "we'd rather spend THAT money on the NHS"...


This would fuck the farmers who are expecting a post-Brexit government to continue stumping up subsidies


----------



## weltweit (Jun 26, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh but did you link to the tweet, which may have been deleted, or get a screengrab of it?


I linked to it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 26, 2016)

weltweit said:


> I linked to it.


Pls go and get a screengrab of it


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jun 26, 2016)

Keep the promise of £350 million for our NHS | Campaigns by You


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jun 26, 2016)

How exactly is Farage going to ensure any money at all is spent on the NHS?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 26, 2016)

S☼I said:


> How exactly is Farage going to ensure any money at all is spent on the NHS?


He will deploy the wm ukip group who can put together a coherent sentence at 45 mins notice


----------



## Dandred (Jun 26, 2016)

S☼I said:


> Keep the promise of £350 million for our NHS | Campaigns by You



Did fuck face actually promise to invest in the NHS though?


----------



## weltweit (Jun 26, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Pls go and get a screengrab of it


Found it .. twitter isn't easy to search ..


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jun 26, 2016)

That's my point.


----------



## Dandred (Jun 26, 2016)

weltweit said:


> Found it .. twitter isn't easy to search ..
> 
> View attachment 88884



Not fuckface but twatface.


----------



## mauvais (Jun 26, 2016)

elbows said:


> Larry Elliot in the Guardian going for the 'rejection of globalisation' angle.
> 
> Brexit is a rejection of globalisation


I was going to say that next we can unilaterally reject the weather, or gravity. But no, he has it covered 



> There are those who argue that globalisation is now like the weather, something we can moan about but not alter. This is a false comparison. The global market economy was created by a set of political decisions in the past and it can be shaped by political decisions taken in the future.


Thanks, Larry Elliot! _Decisions _will keep the wolf from the door.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jun 26, 2016)

Dandred said:


> Did fuck face actually promise to invest in the NHS though?


Which fuckface did you mean?


----------



## Anju (Jun 26, 2016)

killer b said:


> _beneficial to all parties is_... questionable. That's why the blackmail didn't work.



I don't get the blackmail bit.  Britain is a pretty successful country and a lot of people believe that success is at least in part down to EU membership. Would Nissan be providing jobs in Sunderland if we were not in the EU is one question and we also need to ask if they will continue to do so if we don't agree to EU terms to gain access to the single market. Pointing out things like this is not blackmail.


----------



## 2hats (Jun 26, 2016)

mauvais said:


> I was going to say that next we can unilaterally reject the weather, or gravity. But no, he has it covered


I would suggest it is more like we have rolled up to the sports pitch determined to play football, only to find everyone else on the field is playing rugby.


----------



## gosub (Jun 26, 2016)

2hats said:


> Apparently we don't need experts anymore. Or facts.



FFS I responded to that before the referendum


----------



## mauvais (Jun 26, 2016)

2hats said:


> I would suggest it is more like we have rolled up to the sports pitch determined to play football, only to find everyone else on the field is playing rugby.


Decisions were made to play rugby in the past.


----------



## Tankus (Jun 26, 2016)

With a cricket bat


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 26, 2016)

2hats said:


> Apparently we don't need experts anymore. Or facts.


Which rather fucks people like Gove and other politicians because they're supposed to be experts of a sort. Bet Gove can barely use the Internet and relies on experts all the fucking time


----------



## Dandred (Jun 26, 2016)

S☼I said:


> Which fuckface did you mean?


Farge


----------



## killer b (Jun 26, 2016)

Anju said:


> I don't get the blackmail bit.  Britain is a pretty successful country and a lot of people believe that success is at least in part down to EU membership. Would Nissan be providing jobs in Sunderland if we were not in the EU is one question and we also need to ask if they will continue to do so if we don't agree to EU terms to gain access to the single market. Pointing out things like this is not blackmail.


The idea that most of the 'experts' who were pointing out things like that were neutral observers, just saying it like it is is pretty transparent. They were for the most part actors, with a stake and a say in what happens next. 

What's happening now isn't some sort of natural reaction, the market isn't a force of nature. What's happening now is a punishment. _It's happening because they are doing what they said they would do if we didn't do what they said._ The definition of blackmail.


----------



## weltweit (Jun 26, 2016)




----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 26, 2016)

weltweit said:


>



A better argument is a two minute chat with the average politician


----------



## NoXion (Jun 26, 2016)

If that's a real quote then that's yet another piece of evidence that Churchill was a fucking twat.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 26, 2016)

NoXion said:


> If that's a real quote then that's yet another piece of evidence that Churchill was a fucking twat.


Tbh his entire life is evidence he was a twat.


----------



## mauvais (Jun 26, 2016)

Tried to unify Britain and France though. Where would we have been then? Brance, probably.


----------



## Anju (Jun 26, 2016)

killer b said:


> The idea that most of the 'experts' who were pointing out things like that were neutral observers, just saying it like it is is pretty transparent. They were for the most part actors, with a stake and a say in what happens next.
> 
> What's happening now isn't some sort of natural reaction, the market isn't a force of nature. What's happening now is a punishment. _It's happening because they are doing what they said they would do if we didn't do what they said._ The definition of blackmail.



I wasn't quoting any experts. My gut feeling was remain but I looked things up for myself. Britain makes a big deal out of car manufacturers choosing to operate here.  If you look up facts and figures you discover that over half of the cars we make are exported to the EU. We have had £3.5 billion of EU funding for R&D for the motor industry from the EU.  

I also looked at how funding was allocated and it all seemed pretty sensible.

Even the leave campaign admitted that there would initially be some negative effects on the economy. The markets may not be a force of nature but neither are they driven by hard facts, they react to events and perceived impacts of those events. If this was how I made my money I would be looking to protect myself from the event that is brexit by backing away from UK investment, whether I was pro in or pro out. In any case I believe the markets are too large and complex to be manipulated in this way as it would need the collision of a lot of people, who would have to be prepared to lose a lot of money.

I can see how certain parts of the media might be accused of blackmail but that was both sides of the so called debate.


----------



## Mation (Jun 26, 2016)

I'm finding it difficult to keep track of.. well, anything really, so sorry if this has already been posted, but I think this is a brilliant article by Lisa McKenzie



> Today is a depressing day. It doesn’t have to be, but it is. And of course the blame game has started: the middle-class Remainers are pointing fingers at the working-class Leavers. This is just the latest in the narratives that they have been rehearsing over the past few months. First it was “the working class won’t be interested and they won’t vote”; next it was “the working class will do what the Labour Party tells them to”; then we progressed to “the Labour Party is not doing enough to tell ‘their’ voters to vote Remain”.
> 
> But as the EU referendum vote loomed closer, the rhetoric became much darker: “the working class are racist, and stupid, and backwards, which is why they are voting Leave”. In the final few days before the referendum, and today in its aftermath, the explanation for Brexit offered up by politicians and the media is that the working class are “dupes”, they have been “conned”, and they are turkeys voting for Christmas.
> 
> I don’t agree with this analysis.



EU referendum: many don’t care what happens next, they just wanted change


----------



## mauvais (Jun 26, 2016)

Anju said:


> I wasn't quoting any experts. My gut feeling was remain but I looked things up for myself. Britain makes a big deal out of car manufacturers choosing to operate here.  If you look up facts and figures you discover that over half of the cars we make are exported to the EU. We have had £3.5 billion of EU funding for R&D for the motor industry from the EU.


Car manufacturing is thoroughly global, but take pretty much any competitive mass produced car, in particular ones from companies HQ'd outside the EU - Hyundai/Kia etc. They're almost all assembled somewhere in the EU, presumably because of tariffs. Then conversely, Euro manufacturers struggle to break into for example the Chinese and even American markets - see e.g. VW in the US. If the UK doesn't arrange free trade, then why wouldn't all of those relocate immediately? That's not blackmail at any coherent level beyond the 'blackmail of global capital', that's pragmatism.

Within the EU, why some chose to set up in Britain was actually closer to bribery, but that ceases to be the dominant factor if we dramatically change our relationship with the bloc.


----------



## inva (Jun 26, 2016)

Mation said:


> I'm finding it difficult to keep track of.. well, anything really, so sorry if this has already been posted, but I think this is a brilliant article by Lisa McKenzie
> 
> 
> 
> EU referendum: many don’t care what happens next, they just wanted change


I've got a feeling it has been posted before but I think everyone's lost track tbh 
it is a good piece, I've really enjoyed hearing what she's got to say about the whole issue


----------



## Skyfallsz (Jun 26, 2016)

mauvais said:


> Tried to unify Britain and France though. Where would we have been then? Brance, probably.



Bromance


----------



## andysays (Jun 26, 2016)

chilango said:


> It's not worth anything. I took part in that survey. We were presented with a list of 3 pre-determined options and had to rank them.



Interesting to hear from someone who actually took park.

They gave three stereotypical options from each side and then pretend that the results mean something. So much for fucking "experts"


----------



## bi0boy (Jun 26, 2016)

Got to be a GE I'd have thought...


----------



## Wilf (Jun 26, 2016)

There's some musing here about whether Britain will ever trigger article 50 and how the EU will play it if we don't.  I think it's wrong and that somebody is going to have to trigger the fucking thing, whether it be Cameron or Johnson. However it's another indication of how mad things have got since Thursday - along with the tories split and labour in meltdown.

Will article 50 ever be triggered?


----------



## Wilf (Jun 26, 2016)

bi0boy said:


> Got to be a GE I'd have thought...



Probably the main difference between the parties would be 'we will trigger article 50 on Thursday' and 'we will trigger article 50 when the time is right for the UK economy - probably the Tuesday after'.


----------



## killer b (Jun 26, 2016)

have we had this yet? 

Thoughts on the sociology of Brexit


----------



## gosub (Jun 26, 2016)

bi0boy said:


> Got to be a GE I'd have thought...




Oh, it gets better. UKIP don't have a plan either.

The former head of research for UKIP has written one, its had about 80,000 downloads but UKIP and vote Leave ignore it.  UKIP reckon the author drinks too much.


----------



## 2hats (Jun 26, 2016)

bi0boy said:


> Got to be a GE I'd have thought...


----------



## mk12 (Jun 26, 2016)

weltweit said:


>



Horribly anti-democratic statement from a horribly anti-democratic shit.


----------



## gosub (Jun 26, 2016)

Wilf said:


> Probably the main difference between the parties would be 'we will trigger article 50 on Thursday' and 'we will trigger article 50 when the time is right for the UK economy - probably the Tuesday after'.



Well actually there's other lots, some that wouldn't trigger article 50 coz they didn't do this to leave (it was a hard ball negotiating tactic ) and others who won't go near that piece of EUropean legislation (think its a trap) and can be down by Parliament repealing one Act of Parliament.


----------



## gosub (Jun 26, 2016)

gosub said:


> Well actually there's other lots, some that wouldn't trigger article 50 coz they didn't do this to leave (it was a hard ball negotiating tactic ) and others who won't go near that piece of EUropean legislation (think its a trap) and can be down by Parliament repealing one Act of Parliament.



Any way parliament is back tomorrow and we find out what planning the civil service did. (I'd guess at some sticky back plastic and acknowledgement of article 50)


----------



## gosub (Jun 26, 2016)

2hats said:


>



Its not quite as bad as that.  But lots of scope for "suggestions/influence"

EEA holding pattern please.


----------



## bi0boy (Jun 26, 2016)

The weekend following the referendum the deputy leader of the Labour party is at Glastonbury. Has The Day Today become reality?


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 26, 2016)

mk12 said:


> Horribly anti-democratic statement from a horribly anti-democratic shit.



Reminds me if that Gordon Brown incident with that woman when he was out electioneering .


----------



## Wilf (Jun 26, 2016)

bi0boy said:


> The weekend following the referendum the deputy leader of the Labour party is at Glastonbury. Has The Day Today become reality?


The usual Sunday interview of a politician is open necked shirt in their extensive garden. Upside down in a shit filled portaloo would indeed be the point where reality trumps satire.


----------



## Wilf (Jun 26, 2016)

Things are so mad now, all we need is a law exempting the incoming PM from any future prosecutions and we'll have gone the full Berlusconi.


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Jun 26, 2016)

gosub said:


> ...parliament is back tomorrow and we find out what planning the civil service did.


None, according to Number 10 and "not a lot" according to Osborne.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 26, 2016)

Brixton Hatter said:


> None, according to Number 10 and "not a lot" according to Osborne.


They put the crack Iraq planning group to work again


----------



## 8den (Jun 26, 2016)

gosub said:


> Oh, it gets better. UKIP don't have a plan either.
> 
> The former head of research for UKIP has written one, its had about 80,000 downloads but UKIP and vote Leave ignore it.  UKIP reckon the author drinks too much.



The party of Nigel Farage thinks someone else is a pisshead?


----------



## gosub (Jun 26, 2016)

Brixton Hatter said:


> None, according to Number 10 and "not a lot" according to Osborne.



1th May makes it Mandy Rice Davis


----------



## gosub (Jun 26, 2016)

8den said:


> The party of Nigel Farage thinks someone else is a pisshead?



yep.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 26, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> They put the crack Iraq planning group to work again


Talking of which...images of the new Leave/EU negotiation team emerge...


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 26, 2016)

8den said:


> The party of Nigel Farage thinks someone else is a pisshead?


I am told it is medically impossible for anyone to drink more than farage for any sustained period without risking liver disease


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 26, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Talking of which...images of the new Leave/EU negotiation team emerge...
> 
> View attachment 88888


That's their research unit, not the negotiators


----------



## J Ed (Jun 26, 2016)

Brixton Hatter said:


> None, according to Number 10 and "not a lot" according to Osborne.



I read in The Spectator that virtually nothing had been done weeks prior to the vote, the fact that nothing was done since then is astonishing.


----------



## gosub (Jun 26, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> I am told it is medically impossible for anyone to drink more than farage for any sustained period without risking liver disease


Juncker?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 26, 2016)

gosub said:


> Juncker?


Done for


----------



## Sue (Jun 26, 2016)

Some people seem to be struggling with the democracy thing. 

'Lord Heseltine has pointed to the practicalities of an overwhelming majority in the House of Commons against leaving the EU. “There is a majority of something like 350 in the House of Commons broadly in favour of the European relationship,” he said.

“There is no way you are going to get those people to say black is white and change their minds unless a) they know what the deal is and b) it has been supported either by an election or by another referendum,” Heseltine told Sky News. “So there’s a dramatic urgency to get on with the negotiations.”

He called for a cross-party group of MPs to look at the options and “articulate the case for Britain rethinking the result of the referendum”.'

Parliamentary fightback against Brexit on cards


----------



## 8den (Jun 26, 2016)

Heseltine also insisted that Gove/Boris/Farage lead the exit negotiation team, if nothing else that'll be entertaining.


----------



## gosub (Jun 26, 2016)

Sue said:


> Some people seem to be struggling with the democracy thing.
> 
> 'Lord Heseltine has pointed to the practicalities of an overwhelming majority in the House of Commons against leaving the EU. “There is a majority of something like 350 in the House of Commons broadly in favour of the European relationship,” he said.
> 
> ...



The howl against democracy | Coffee House

Acting as an informed dampener, by all means but the result is the result.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 26, 2016)

Interesting piece by Boris in the Telegraph 





> "we [Leavers] who agreed with this majority verdict must accept that it was not entirely overwhelming" I cannot stress too much that Britain is part of Europe – and always will be


----------



## andysays (Jun 27, 2016)

8den said:


> Heseltine also insisted that Gove/Boris/Farage lead the exit negotiation team, if nothing else that'll be entertaining.



One thing which Heseltine and many others appear to have missed is that there is no provision for any negotiation before Article 50 is triggered. 

So if Gove/Boris/Farage headed over to Brussels and said "we're here for the negotiations", none of the other EU countries have to engage with them, and if they do they can subsequently argue that what they said was just idle chat and not part of any formal negotiation.

This whole situation now has the prospect of going way beyond a civil war in the Tory party, turning into a farce which demonstrates the contempt in which our rulers truely regard us and leading to a complete crisis in our "democracy". Looks like Donald Tusk could have been right after all


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 27, 2016)

The39thStep said:


> Interesting piece by Boris in the Telegraph


Yes. And only of ephemeral interest as its purpose is to help him to Number 10, not to set out his true feelings.


----------



## stethoscope (Jun 27, 2016)

Was that Osborne backtracking on his emergency budget?!


----------



## killer b (Jun 27, 2016)

Re: the ashcroft poll graphic everyone has been outraged about - we've been reading it wrong. everyone is reading that infographic incorrectly


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 27, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> Was that Osborne backtracking on his emergency budget?!


This govt so full of u-turns they're going in circles


----------



## killer b (Jun 27, 2016)

Great headline in the FT today btw: 'Brexit, pursued by despair'


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 27, 2016)

Bastards, that is very good.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 27, 2016)

World egg throwing championships not affected by Brexit
World Egg Throwing Championships held in Swaton - BBC News


----------



## Flavour (Jun 27, 2016)

it is funny to see them all completely shitting themselves, but I'm starting to get the feeling, as a Leave voter, that we've been fucking cheated. this was all a fucking sham and they never expected to win, and they've no intention of pulling out of the EU. people talk about brexit as a "pyrric victory", but if there is any pyrric victory around here, surely it is BJ's over pig fucker.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 27, 2016)

mk12 said:


> Horribly anti-democratic statement from a horribly anti-democratic shit.


Bit harsh on weltweit.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 27, 2016)

Flavour said:


> it is funny to see them all completely shitting themselves, but I'm starting to get the feeling, as a Leave voter, that we've been fucking cheated. this was all a fucking sham and they never expected to win, and they've no intention of pulling out of the EU. people talk about brexit as a "pyrric victory", but if there is any pyrric victory around here, surely it is BJ's over pig fucker.


What did you want from a leave vote?


----------



## Flavour (Jun 27, 2016)

the destruction of the City of London


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 27, 2016)

Goodbye to All That: Why the UK Left the EU


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jun 27, 2016)

killer b said:


> Re: the ashcroft poll graphic everyone has been outraged about - we've been reading it wrong. everyone is reading that infographic incorrectly



That's a bizarre way of representing data and can only have been designed to mislead from the outset.


----------



## phildwyer (Jun 27, 2016)

Flavour said:


> I'm starting to get the feeling, as a Leave voter, that we've been fucking cheated. this was all a fucking sham and they never expected to win, and they've no intention of pulling out of the EU.



That's what's so funny about it.  It's going to be great watching Boris flounder about trying to negotiate our way out.  What a load of stupid tossers they truly all are.


----------



## weltweit (Jun 27, 2016)

Boris Johnson February 2016


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jun 27, 2016)

The39thStep said:


> World egg throwing championships not affected by Brexit
> World Egg Throwing Championships held in Swaton - BBC News



They should've relocated it to Michael Gove's house.


----------



## DownwardDog (Jun 27, 2016)

I've just pitched up in the Brexit heartland of Hartlepool and it's weird. The populace are fucking delighted and the atmosphere is a combination of VE day and that time HUFC got promoted to League One. I met somebody who thinks they voted for deportation of all immigrants.

I'm no political scientist but anything that 69% of the people of Hartlepool will vote for is almost certainly a bad idea.


----------



## Idris2002 (Jun 27, 2016)

DownwardDog said:


> I've just pitched up in the Brexit heartland of Hartlepool and it's weird. The populace are fucking delighted and the atmosphere is a combination of VE day and that time HUFC got promoted to League One. I met somebody who thinks they voted for deportation of all immigrants.
> 
> I'm no political scientist but anything that 69% of the people of Hartlepool will vote for is almost certainly a bad idea.


How does this make you feel about your Conservative and Unionist party, which proposed this thing that 69% of the people of Hartlepool voted for?


----------



## Dandred (Jun 27, 2016)

George Osborne says Britain won't start leaving the EU until a new Prime Minister is in office


----------



## brogdale (Jun 27, 2016)

Dandred said:


> George Osborne says Britain won't start leaving the EU until a new Prime Minister is in office


Looks like he might be right, for once.


> _According to Reuters, *Steffen Seibert*, a spokesman for Angela Merkel, told a briefing:
> 
> One thing is clear: before Britain has sent this request there will be no informal preliminary talks about the modalities of leaving.
> 
> Only when Britain has made the request according to article 50 will the European Council draw up guidelines in consensus for an exit agreement._



So....plan B, then?


----------



## nuffsaid (Jun 27, 2016)

Brexit could be followed by Nethexit, Grexit, Departugal, Italeave, Czechout, Oustria, Finish, Slovakout, Latervia and Byegium. Remania only one to remain


----------



## Flavour (Jun 27, 2016)

That's precisely what the Tories don't want, and their own inaction is making it more likely. Fantastic.


----------



## phildwyer (Jun 27, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Looks like he might be right, for once.
> ​
> So....plan B, then?



It wouldn't surprise me if they kept putting it off... we'll do it next month... the time has to be just right... oho, here's an International Crisis... well we can't leave during one of those... maybe next year then... well things have changed now, we'd better have another vote...

I seriously wouldn't put it past the bastards.


----------



## emanymton (Jun 27, 2016)

phildwyer said:


> It wouldn't surprise me if they kept putting it off... we'll do it next month... the time has to be just right... oho, here's an International Crisis... well we can't leave during one of those... maybe next year then... well things have changed now, we'd better have another vote...
> 
> I seriously wouldn't put it past the bastards.


Like students with infinite extensions.


----------



## phildwyer (Jun 27, 2016)

emanymton said:


> Like students with infinite extensions.



Honestly Sir, my dog ate the referendum result...


----------



## brogdale (Jun 27, 2016)

How are the capitalists' markets going, then?


----------



## killer b (Jun 27, 2016)

Pretty fucked by the looks of it.


----------



## nuffsaid (Jun 27, 2016)

More from CounterPunch - linking Brexit to a need to withdraw from the US as a means to avoid war with Russia:

How Western Military Interventions Shaped the Brexit Vote

And so all of a sudden the eurozone that was supposed to be a bulwark of military peace has become belligerent, and even more so if Hillary would win in the United States. And there’s a feeling we do want peace. That means we have to withdraw from the eurozone. And essentially, withdrawing from Brussels means withdrawing from NATO and withdrawing from the United States.

So you could say that the vote to withdraw from Europe is, it’s really a vote of the British middle class, the working class, to withdraw from the U.S. neoliberalism that has been running Europe for the last ten years.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 27, 2016)

phildwyer said:


> It wouldn't surprise me if they kept putting it off... we'll do it next month... the time has to be just right... oho, here's an International Crisis... well we can't leave during one of those... maybe next year then... well things have changed now, we'd better have another vote...


I see you've been privy to johnson's plan


----------



## mauvais (Jun 27, 2016)

brogdale said:


> How are the capitalists' markets going, then?





killer b said:


> Pretty fucked by the looks of it.


Some entities like banks (e.g. Barclays) are in the shit, but overall the reaction is surprisingly calm thus far -_ I'm_ surprised anyway. FTSE100 is down <2% today, FTSE350 2.5% today, nothing earth shattering.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Jun 27, 2016)

Foxtons issued a profit warning


----------



## killer b (Jun 27, 2016)

mauvais said:


> Some entities like banks (e.g. Barclays) are in the shit, but overall the reaction is surprisingly calm thus far -_ I'm_ surprised anyway. FTSE100 is down <2% today, FTSE350 2.5% today, nothing earth shattering.


Ah, of course. They're talking it up to scare people aren't they?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 27, 2016)

not-bono-ever said:


> Foxtons issued a profit warning


Good


----------



## phildwyer (Jun 27, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> I see you've been privy to johnson's plan



It doesn't take Machiavelli see what he's up to.

I've got ten quid says a year from now the UK will still be in the EU, and Boris will be in Number 10.


----------



## mauvais (Jun 27, 2016)

killer b said:


> Ah, of course. They're talking it up to scare people aren't they?


Maybe. Or maybe it's because the actual outcome looks more and more like a conservative one. It's also only an aggregate/average measure. That can be calm but losing a third of your share price is something more to crow about.


----------



## SaskiaJayne (Jun 27, 2016)

weltweit said:


> View attachment 88908
> Boris Johnson February 2016


I'm sure he would not deny any of that now but I'm sure he believes all that is a price worth paying to be prime minister.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Jun 27, 2016)

Most of the big financials would aim to be well square in the build up to the referendum and wait it out.the volatility is uncertainty and uncertainty generates throughput business for them.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 27, 2016)

phildwyer said:


> It doesn't take Machiavelli see what he's up to.
> 
> I've got ten quid says a year from now the UK will still be in the EU, and Boris will be in Number 10.


Yeh but that's pretty much a certainty: a tenner that article 50 not invoked, that'd be more interesting


----------



## not-bono-ever (Jun 27, 2016)

I wouldn't put money on Art 50 being invoked myself - Germany is playing the long game here ( as ever) - how that _in but out_ scenario  would be sold to the electorate would be a *challenging* task for whatever sleek young double firster takes it on board


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 27, 2016)

Notice the way that germany is just standing in for the EU now.


----------



## Idris2002 (Jun 27, 2016)

Mutti has decided that a finger of fudge is just enough to give her kids a treat:

Germany to offer UK 'associate membership' in EU


----------



## steeplejack (Jun 27, 2016)

Mass redundancies coming very quick to the City as big banks take the opportunity to cut costs by re-locating to other cities in the EU

I suspect that, wherever Johnson and Gove are currently, the talk is revolving around the question "How do we get out of this awful mess?" Reneging will be top of the agenda.

David Lammy has called for parliament to set aside the referendum result and remain in the EU; "stop the madness".

Utter, utter disarray.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 27, 2016)

Idris2002 said:


> Mutti has decided that a finger of fudge is just enough to give her kids a treat:
> 
> Germany to offer UK 'associate membership' in EU


Thanks Germany, i mean EU.


----------



## Idris2002 (Jun 27, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Thanks Germany, i mean EU.




Frieden, fudge-heit und einigkeit.


----------



## phildwyer (Jun 27, 2016)

steeplejack said:


> Mass redundancies coming very quick to the City



Best news I've heard all year.



steeplejack said:


> David Lammy has called for parliament to set aside the referendum result and remain in the EU



Bastard should be charged with treason.  The sheer contempt these people have for those they claim to represent is mind-boggling.


----------



## mk12 (Jun 27, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Thanks Germany, i mean EU.



Later in his diary (25 October 1977) Benn wrote that he "loathed" the EEC; he claimed it was "bureaucratic and centralised" and "of course it is really dominated by Germany."


----------



## steeplejack (Jun 27, 2016)

I'm not sure what will provoke bigger rage.

either a) the referendum result being set aside by metropolitan, well educated liberals like Lammy and Heseltine in parliament or b) going ahead with pressing the Article 50 button and it slowly dawning on the far-right sections of the Leave campaign that all that's happened is that we are still firmly in the EU's orbit, only on worse terms, that no one is being sent home, that immigration will not stop, the effects of globalisation cannot be opted out of, the NHS will get the EU money is demagoghic bullshit, and there is no time machine invented yet that will take us all back to 1954.


----------



## Idris2002 (Jun 27, 2016)

steeplejack said:


> I'm not sure what will provoke bigger rage.
> 
> either a) the referendum result being set aside by metropolitan, well educated liberals like Lammy and Heseltine in parliament or b) going ahead with pressing the Article 50 button and it slowly dawning on the far-right sections of the Leave campaign that all that's happened is that we are still firmly in the EU's orbit, only on worse terms, that no one is being sent home, that immigration will not stop, the effects of globalisation cannot be opted out of, and there is no time machine invented yet that will take us all back to 1954.


Couldn't happen to a nicer bunch.


----------



## phildwyer (Jun 27, 2016)

Predictable response from L. Penny.  Anything these people hate is alright by me.  I mean, Jesus:

"a day when prejudice, propaganda, naked xenophobia and callous fear-mongering have won out over the common sense we British like to pride ourselves on."

I want my country back


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 27, 2016)

phildwyer said:


> Predictable response from L. Penny.  Anything these people hate is alright by me.  I mean, Jesus:
> 
> "a day when prejudice, propaganda, naked xenophobia and callous fear-mongering have won out over the common sense we British like to pride ourselves on."
> 
> I want my country back





> Sinn Fein was making secession noises



no they weren't. Re unification not secession.


----------



## The Pale King (Jun 27, 2016)

phildwyer said:


> Predictable response from L. Penny.  Anything these people hate is alright by me.  I mean, Jesus:
> 
> "a day when prejudice, propaganda, naked xenophobia and callous fear-mongering have won out over the common sense we British like to pride ourselves on."
> 
> I want my country back



"we British" indeed


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jun 27, 2016)

Highlights from Wiki



> Another 1985 internal memo released in December 2015 showed Letwin's response to the Broadwater Farm riot, which blamed the violence on the "bad moral attitudes" of the predominantly Afro-Caribbean rioters, claiming that "lower-class, unemployed white people lived for years without a breakdown of public order on anything like the present scale".





> Speaking to consultancy firm KPMG on 27 July 2011, Letwin caused controversy after stating that you cannot have "innovation and excellence" without "real discipline and some fear on the part of the providers" in the public sector. This was widely reported, with _The Guardian_ headline stating Letwin says 'public sector workers need "discipline and fear"'.[30]





> In October 2011 the _Daily Mirror_ reported a story that Letwin had thrown away more than 100 secret government documents in public bins in St. James's Park, with no real care to dispose of them properly.[31][32] Enquiries made by the Information Commissioner's Office found that Letwin did not dispose of any government documents; they were in fact his constituents' personal and confidential letters to him and did breach data protection rules.[33] Letwin later apologised for his actions.


----------



## mwgdrwg (Jun 27, 2016)




----------



## mwgdrwg (Jun 27, 2016)




----------



## mwgdrwg (Jun 27, 2016)

If I keep making Star Wars memes maybe it will all go away.


----------



## phildwyer (Jun 27, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> no they weren't. Re unification not secession.



That post was not from me.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 27, 2016)

phildwyer said:


> That post was not from me.


It's a quote from your link


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 27, 2016)

phildwyer said:


> That post was not from me.


I know, it was just the first objectionable line in the article


----------



## hot air baboon (Jun 27, 2016)

phildwyer said:


> I've got ten quid says a year from now the UK will still be in the EU



...the withdrawal process takes 2 years so I'd say that was a racing certainty yes...


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 27, 2016)

hot air baboon said:


> ...the withdrawal process takes 2 years so I'd say that was a racing certainty yes...


It can take up to two years (and be extended by agreement). It doesn't have to though.


----------



## phildwyer (Jun 27, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> I know, it was just the first objectionable line in the article



Hardly.  It comes after this for a start: " I woke up in a country I do not recognize."

She also _went to bed _in a country that she doesn't recognize.  She wouldn't recognize the country if it bit her in the bum.


----------



## phildwyer (Jun 27, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> It can take up to two years (and be extended by agreement). It doesn't have to though.



It will though.


----------



## twentythreedom (Jun 27, 2016)

Did Lammy really say "diktat by plebiscite"? Fucking hell


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 27, 2016)

I feel like I've crossed over to a Fringe style alternative Earth. And it's not exciting; it's awful. Not talking about reaction here - am talking about the rise of hate crime post Brexit


----------



## Anju (Jun 27, 2016)

Whatever happens now will not be good. I voted remain but would not want the referendum result to be ignored. What seems most likely is that we will end up with a worse deal than we currently have with an even worse PM. This is not what people who voted leave wanted, as far as I can tell, and will leave the same divisions as rejection of the result. 

Could we have a how to proceed after the referendum referendum.  Have 3 choices, all of which have a website with honest comprehensive FACTS and figures, perhaps presented with the help of people from the world of education. No media coverage other than daily reminders to vote. Run some consultation groups to check people can understand the information provided.

The choices would be.

Leave, no EU freedom of movement. Trade deal with EU.
Leave but keep freedom of movement and be part of EEA.
Stay in.

Seems like a fair way to proceed and gives us a chance to choose based on facts.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 27, 2016)

Ah people from the world of education. People who voted overwhelmingly stay, you mean. 

There aren't objective ways to present facts on this - the facts need to be presented as part of an argument, and an argument requires a point of view. What you suggest here is not democracy. It's rule by technocrats.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 27, 2016)

Anju said:


> Whatever happens now will not be good. I voted remain but would not want the referendum result to be ignored. What seems most likely is that we will end up with a worse deal than we currently have with an even worse PM. This is not what people who voted leave wanted, as far as I can tell, and will leave the same divisions as rejection of the result.
> 
> Could we have a how to proceed after the referendum referendum.  Have 3 choices, all of which have a website with honest comprehensive FACTS and figures, perhaps presented with the help of people from the world of education. No media coverage other than daily reminders to vote. Run some consultation groups to check people can understand the information provided.
> 
> ...


Who would be _we _given your earlier posts about 'real europeans?'


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 27, 2016)

Anju said:


> Whatever happens now will not be good. I voted remain but would not want the referendum result to be ignored. What seems most likely is that we will end up with a worse deal than we currently have with an even worse PM. This is not what people who voted leave wanted, as far as I can tell, and will leave the same divisions as rejection of the result.
> 
> Could we have a how to proceed after the referendum referendum.  Have 3 choices, all of which have a website with honest comprehensive FACTS and figures, perhaps presented with the help of people from the world of education. No media coverage other than daily reminders to vote. Run some consultation groups to check people can understand the information provided.
> 
> ...


Jim crow-lite.


----------



## free spirit (Jun 27, 2016)

Anju said:


> Whatever happens now will not be good. I voted remain but would not want the referendum result to be ignored. What seems most likely is that we will end up with a worse deal than we currently have with an even worse PM. This is not what people who voted leave wanted, as far as I can tell, and will leave the same divisions as rejection of the result.
> 
> Could we have a how to proceed after the referendum referendum.  Have 3 choices, all of which have a website with honest comprehensive FACTS and figures, perhaps presented with the help of people from the world of education. No media coverage other than daily reminders to vote. Run some consultation groups to check people can understand the information provided.
> 
> ...


I increasingly think this is going to be needed as well.

So many people seem to have voted for an option that's very unlikely to exist - leaving the EU, keeping access to the common market, and stopping freedom of movement, paying into the EU, and EU laws having sway in the UK.

Once there are clear options negotiated for exit, there should be another referendum to determine which of the actual worked out detailed options on the table people want to happen.

And I suspect once people really understand that they won't be able to both have their cake and eat it, the result will be significantly different.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 27, 2016)

The sun king demands jim crow.


----------



## moochedit (Jun 27, 2016)

Anju said:


> with honest comprehensive FACTS and figures,



hmm..good luck with that one!


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 28, 2016)

Anju said:


> Whatever happens now will not be good. I voted remain but would not want the referendum result to be ignored. What seems most likely is that we will end up with a worse deal than we currently have with an even worse PM. This is not what people who voted leave wanted, as far as I can tell, and will leave the same divisions as rejection of the result.
> 
> Could we have a how to proceed after the referendum referendum.  Have 3 choices, all of which have a website with honest comprehensive FACTS and figures, perhaps presented with the help of people from the world of education. No media coverage other than daily reminders to vote. Run some consultation groups to check people can understand the information provided.
> 
> ...


Let's all try and get behind this.


----------



## squirrelp (Jun 28, 2016)

phildwyer said:


> Hardly.  It comes after this for a start: " I woke up in a country I do not recognize."
> 
> She also _went to bed _in a country that she doesn't recognize.  She wouldn't recognize the country if it bit her in the bum.



Quite a bold declaration though. Diplomatic minefield if she wants to nip abroad mind you. Good luck to her not paying the taxes


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 28, 2016)

Anju said:


> Whatever happens now will not be good. I voted remain but would not want the referendum result to be ignored. What seems most likely is that we will end up with a worse deal than we currently have with an even worse PM. This is not what people who voted leave wanted, as far as I can tell, and will leave the same divisions as rejection of the result.
> 
> Could we have a how to proceed after the referendum referendum.  Have 3 choices, all of which have a website with honest comprehensive FACTS and figures, perhaps presented with the help of people from the world of education. No media coverage other than daily reminders to vote. Run some consultation groups to check people can understand the information provided.
> 
> ...


Sorry, I've read that again, and this is exactly what 'ignoring the referendum result' looks like.


----------



## free spirit (Jun 28, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Sorry, I've read that again, and this is exactly what 'ignoring the referendum result' looks like.


what version of leave did the majority just vote for?


----------



## Anju (Jun 28, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Who would be _we _given your earlier posts about 'real europeans?'



Go to Spain, Portugal, Italy, Holland and they have a more relaxed tactile easygoing attitude. Watch the end of Italy v Spain and the way the players react to each other then watch the end of England v Iceland and our p!ayers slump to the ground being moody. Spain have a lot less practice losing but seem to be better at it. When I think of Europe I see cafe dwelling easy going happy people. No idea why this offends you. I have been to places in Europe where there are a lot of English holiday makers and been embarrassed to be English.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 28, 2016)

Anju said:


> Go to Spain, Portugal, Italy, Holland and they have a more relaxed tactile easygoing attitude. Watch the end of Italy v Spain and the way the players react to each other then watch the end of England v Iceland and our p!ayers slump to the ground being moody. Spain have a lot less practice losing but seem to be better at it. When I think of Europe I see cafe dwelling easy going happy people. No idea why this offends you. I have been to places in Europe where there are a lot of English holiday makers and been embarrassed to be English.


Purple aki for the eu. 

You're an idiot - judging who is real europeans on if they touch you loads or not.


----------



## Anju (Jun 28, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Sorry, I've read that again, and this is exactly what 'ignoring the referendum result' looks like.



I don't see any other way to sort things out. You can present facts. Trade figures, size of immigrant population, contribution v funding, types of finding, alternatives to funding, long term goals history of economic performance. I'm sure there are plenty more but I don't have time to spend thinking about things now. 

The leave voters were lied to, as were the remain voters, though to a lesser extent in my opinion. Whatever happens now will be damaging whether the government ignores the result or stays in the EEA as seems likely. Im sure you heard what Boris was saying today.


----------



## Anju (Jun 28, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Sorry, I've read that again, and this is exactly what 'ignoring the referendum result' looks like.



I don't see any other way to sort things out. You can present facts. Trade figures, size of immigrant population, contribution v funding, types of finding, alternatives to funding, long term goals, history of economic performance in and out of EU, similar nations not in EU and their economic and social policies.. I'm sure there are plenty more but I don't have time to spend thinking about things now. 

The leave voters were lied to, as were the remain voters, though to a lesser extent in my opinion. Whatever happens now will be damaging whether the government ignores the result or stays in the EEA as seems likely. Im sure you heard what Boris was saying today.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 28, 2016)

Anju said:


> I don't see any other way to sort things out. You can present facts. Trade figures, size of immigrant population, contribution v funding, types of finding, alternatives to funding, long term goals history of economic performance. I'm sure there are plenty more but I don't have time to spend thinking about things now.
> 
> The leave voters were lied to, as were the remain voters, though to a lesser extent in my opinion. Whatever happens now will be damaging whether the government ignores the result or stays in the EEA as seems likely. Im sure you heard what Boris was saying today.


A crash course in post-democracy for the electorate.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 28, 2016)

Anju said:


> I don't see any other way to sort things out. You can present facts. Trade figures, size of immigrant population, contribution v funding, types of finding, alternatives to funding, long term goals history of economic performance. I'm sure there are plenty more but I don't have time to spend thinking about things now.
> 
> The leave voters were lied to, as were the remain voters, though to a lesser extent in my opinion. Whatever happens now will be damaging whether the government ignores the result or stays in the EEA as seems likely. Im sure you heard what Boris was saying today.


It's almost like they had independent political principles that weren't yours. 

What if they got their disgusting figures from a non-approved source?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 28, 2016)

Anju said:


> I don't see any other way to sort things out. You can present facts. Trade figures, size of immigrant population, contribution v funding, types of finding, alternatives to funding, long term goals history of economic performance. I'm sure there are plenty more but I don't have time to spend thinking about things now..


All of which start from a particular position, feed into a particular argument: namely, how do we keep this capitalist machine rolling? Where is the democracy in that? 

How about wealth and inequality, who owns what and how we can take things back into public ownership to be run for the collective good? What about the wider position of the UK in the world and where, how and indeed if we might want borders to be enforced. 

What you are suggesting is a set of facts framed by and for the ruling elite. It's a BBC-style 'impartiality', which is of course nothing of the sort.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 28, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> All of which start from a particular position, feed into a particular argument: namely, how do we keep this capitalist machine rolling? Where is the democracy in that?
> 
> How about wealth and inequality, who owns what and how we can take things back into public ownership to be run for the collective good? What about the wider position of the UK in the world and where, how and indeed if we might want borders to be enforced.
> 
> What you are suggesting is a set of facts framed by and for the ruling elite. It's a BBC-style 'impartiality', which is of course nothing of the sort.


It starts from very different positions. Horrible ones you seem to have missed.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 28, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> It starts from very different positions. Horrible ones you seem to have missed.


The 'facts' start from that position, no? What have I missed.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 28, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> The 'facts' start from that position, no? What have I missed.


That there is a group of  people who, by deint of their  views, need to be policed and restricted. Until, under instruction, they become real people for the first time.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 28, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> That there is a group of  people who, by deint of their  views, need to be policed and restricted. Until, under instruction, they become real people for the first time.


Ah right. Yes, you are right about that.


----------



## oryx (Jun 28, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> All of which start from a particular position, feed into a particular argument: namely, how do we keep this capitalist machine rolling? Where is the democracy in that?
> 
> How about wealth and inequality, who owns what and how we can take things back into public ownership to be run for the collective good? What about the wider position of the UK in the world and where, how and indeed if we might want borders to be enforced.
> 
> What you are suggesting is a set of facts framed by and for the ruling elite. It's a BBC-style 'impartiality', which is of course nothing of the sort.



Surely though there are some pretty indisputable facts - such as which laws we make ourselves and areas where we are subject to EU directives?

Also ONS figures?


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 28, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Ah right. Yes, you are right about that.


JIm crow


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 28, 2016)

oryx said:


> Surely though there are some pretty indisputable facts - such as which laws we make ourselves and areas where we are subject to EU directives?
> 
> Also ONS figures?


Are the conclusions to be drawn from this indisputable? You have just been told by a lot of people that they don't fucking care.


----------



## oryx (Jun 28, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Are the conclusions to be drawn from this indisputable? You have just been told by a lot of people that they don't fucking care.



The way I see it, it's about people being able to make an informed choice rather than be subject to propaganda from both camps.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 28, 2016)

oryx said:


> The way I see it, it's about people being able to make an informed choice rather than be subject to propaganda from both camps.


They just did. It's now actually about people like you claiming other people were victims because they passed up on the opp of agreeing with you.


----------



## Anju (Jun 28, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> All of which start from a particular position, feed into a particular argument: namely, how do we keep this capitalist machine rolling? Where is the democracy in that?
> 
> How about wealth and inequality, who owns what and how we can take things back into public ownership to be run for the collective good? What about the wider position of the UK in the world and where, how and indeed if we might want borders to be enforced.
> 
> What you are suggesting is a set of facts framed by and for the ruling elite. It's a BBC-style 'impartiality', which is of course nothing of the sort.



I have no ideology that I follow. I would like the world to be as fair as possible but know it will never be perfect. The referendum was held and the result was very close. It certainly seems like people were misinformed so I don't think the result is an accurate reflection of people's hopes for the future so the actions we take will not be successful in the minds of the winners or the losers. In other words we all lose. 

There are objective facts that can be given to give everyone a choice in how we proceed.  You mention inequality and there are figures available that to me seem realistic. I assume you base your opinions on what you perceive to be good quality information. Worldwide inequality is reducing but in the UK it increasing. Although there will be no completely accurate figures we can still look at countries similar to the UK that have fairer society's and what social policies they have to help achieve this and how much of it is related to the economy. Whether we like it or not business will need to be part of any solutions.  Why not look at which countries are best at collecting tax from businesses and how much this affects equality.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 28, 2016)

Anju said:


> I have no ideology that I follow. I would like the world to be as fair as possible but know it will never be perfect. The referendum was held and the result was very close. It certainly seems like people were misinformed so I don't think the result is an accurate reflection of people's hopes for the future so the actions we take will not be successful in the minds of the winners or the losers. In other words we all lose.
> 
> There are objective facts that can be given to give everyone a choice in how we proceed.  You mention inequality and there are figures available that to me seem realistic. I assume you base your opinions on what you perceive to be good quality information. Worldwide inequality is reducing but in the UK it increasing. Although there will be no completely accurate figures we can still look at countries similar to the UK that have fairer society's and what social policies they have to help achieve this and how much of it is related to the economy. Whether we like it or not business will need to be part of any solutions.  Why not look at which countries are best at collecting tax from businesses and how much this affects equality.


I don't agree.


----------



## xenon (Jun 28, 2016)

oryx said:


> The way I see it, it's about people being able to make an informed choice rather than be subject to propaganda from both camps.



Nutral facts. Like gravity.  But we need some more economists.  With the cold hard facts that they all agree on.


----------



## xenon (Jun 28, 2016)

I don't know if you've been paying attention. But there are no facts. There is action and reaction.  40 years in the making. More.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 28, 2016)

xenon said:


> Nutral facts. Like gravity.  But we need some more economists.  With the cold hard facts that they all agree on.


...and that people respect.

What do you do when the experts are rejected? What's the next level?


----------



## xenon (Jun 28, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> ...and that people respect.
> 
> What do you do when the experts are rejected? What's the next level?



 What do you do when democracy has failed? Get rid of the people.


----------



## wheelie_bin (Jun 28, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> ...and that people respect.
> 
> What do you do when the experts are rejected? What's the next level?


Clearly the answer is to start a leadership war within your party and debate whether you can just ignore the result. That seems to be the most popular reactions so far.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 28, 2016)

xenon said:


> What do you do when democracy has failed? Get rid of the people.


First make some use of them - look at these thickos - the area they live in vote for leave yet it get some money from the Eu, and now the council is asking for an equivalent back. The silly little people.


----------



## xenon (Jun 28, 2016)

To be honest, I am disgusted at what is going on.  But this is a product of the last 40 - 50 years. Not because some uninformeddd thickos  voted the wrong way. Because they didn't have, "the facts. "


----------



## oryx (Jun 28, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> They just did. It's now actually about people like you claiming other people were victims because they passed up on the opp of agreeing with you.



Do you honestly think people made an informed choice, or one influenced by propaganda?


----------



## Anju (Jun 28, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> I don't agree.



I have never been rude to someone online but I will make an exception. You are probably a bit drunk, feeling defensive about how you voted and want to take your frustration out by insulting others online rather than questioning your own motivation. To call me racist when you know nothing about me is a little desperate and I think you protest too much.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 28, 2016)

oryx said:


> Do you honestly think people made an informed choice, or one influenced by propaganda?


Do you honestly think that others need pass some test that you or anju set to be able to vote?


----------



## oryx (Jun 28, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Do you honestly think that others need pass some test that you or anju set to be able to vote?



Do you honestly think I'm suggesting that?


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 28, 2016)

Yes. A set of facts to be shown that you understand before being able to vote. Are you not? What was the lovely BBC if not that then?


----------



## wheelie_bin (Jun 28, 2016)

Perhaps everybody needs a nice cup of tea and a lie down. Our politicians have more than enough knives out for each other right now as they fail to lead, everyone else getting at each other as well won't help.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 28, 2016)

Anju said:


> I have never been rude to someone online but I will make an exception. You are probably a bit drunk, feeling defensive about how you voted and want to take your frustration out by insulting others online rather than questioning your own motivation. To call me racist when you know nothing about me is a little desperate and I think you protest too much.


Probably because i'm not a real euopean. Or your cretinous posts.


----------



## free spirit (Jun 28, 2016)

xenon said:


> I don't know if you've been paying attention. But there are no facts. There is action and reaction.  40 years in the making. More.


there weren't any facts because nobody knew for sure what brexit would actually mean, and those campaigning for it abused that to make out that we could have everything that all leave campaigners wanted all at the same time.

At the point where this has been negotiated and there is a firm proposal on the table there would be facts that should be put to the british people to consider assuming that they're materially different to the bullshit version that the leave campaign just campaigned on.


----------



## xenon (Jun 28, 2016)

oryx said:


> Do you honestly think people made an informed choice, or one influenced by propaganda?



 You honestly think there was a choice like tea or coffee?  Nice dinner party debate.  Gloss over the anger, the dispossessed, shapeless and reactionary though it may be.  The wholesale rejection of crap.   Some nice clearsimple pamflets could fix it all. 

 The naivete is quite astounding.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 28, 2016)

xenon said:


> You honestly think there was a choice like tea or coffee?  Nice dinner party debate.  Gloss over the anger, the dispossessed, shapeless and reactionary though it may be.  The wholesale rejection of crap.   Some nice clearsimple pamflets could fix it all.
> 
> The naivete is quite astounding.


It's necessary.


----------



## Anju (Jun 28, 2016)

wheelie_bin said:


> Perhaps everybody needs a nice cup of tea and a lie down. Our politicians have more than enough knives out for each other right now as they fail to lead, everyone else getting at each other as well won't help.



He started it.  . But yes I think I will have a Milo and JD then lie down.


----------



## oryx (Jun 28, 2016)




----------



## free spirit (Jun 28, 2016)

xenon said:


> You honestly think there was a choice like tea or coffee?  Nice dinner party debate.  Gloss over the anger, the dispossessed, shapeless and reactionary though it may be.  The wholesale rejection of crap.   Some nice clearsimple pamflets could fix it all.
> 
> The naivete is quite astounding.


it's not the quality of the pamphlets, it's about actually knowing in detail what it is that is being voted on rather than some fantasy version of it that borris gove and farrage cooked up on the back of a beermat after a few pints as the best way to win the referendum.

unless they actually are able to negotiate a brexit package that involves full access to the common market and immigration controls, no money going to the EU, no rule of EU law etc.


----------



## xenon (Jun 28, 2016)

If nothing else. This last week has been quite informative.  I spoiled my ballot paper. Yeah. Go me.  I despise the racists, the ruling classes, the fact that it has come to this.  The festering state of  division has just been highlighted.  The great unwashed and vs urbane jetsetting Europhiles.  The former just need better facts.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 28, 2016)

xenon said:


> If nothing else. This last week has been quite informative.  I spoiled my ballot paper. Yeah. Go me.  I despise the racists, the ruling classes, the fact that it has come to this.  The festering state of  division has just been highlighted.  The great unwashed and vs urbane jetsetting Europhiles.  The former just need better facts.


It would enrich their life.


----------



## xenon (Jun 28, 2016)

free spirit said:


> it's not the quality of the pamphlets, it's about actually knowing in detail what it is that is being voted on rather than some fantasy version of it that borris gove and farrage cooked up on the back of a beermat after a few pints as the best way to win the referendum.
> 
> unless they actually are able to negotiate a brexit package that involves full access to the common market and immigration controls, no money going to the EU, no rule of EU law etc.



 Too late now.  What ever happens from here on in, masks have slipped.  Not least the naked incompetence and self-serving bluffing of a political elite.


----------



## xenon (Jun 28, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> It would enrich their life.



 Why have you ruined my career opportunity in Italy you monster


----------



## xenon (Jun 28, 2016)

Don't you care about my children?


----------



## Anju (Jun 28, 2016)

xenon said:


> You honestly think there was a choice like tea or coffee?  Nice dinner party debate.  Gloss over the anger, the dispossessed, shapeless and reactionary though it may be.  The wholesale rejection of crap.   Some nice clearsimple pamflets could fix it all.
> 
> The naivete is quite astounding.



So what are you suggesting should happen. The 40+ years you refer to have been filled with our politicians blaming Europe for many of their mistakes. I can't think of any pro EU stories. 

I don't see any massive paradigm change on the horizon.  To hope for this is to do nothing. Even with the power of social media, harnessed by big business and powerful enough to persuade people to sacrifice their lives for a cause the left has not made any progress. This referendum does offer a little hope but when Boris does his deals to further empower his friends in their quest to own everything and everyone people will just become more disenfranchised but they will not vote out the people that are I  charge they will take it out on whoever they have been led to believe is to blame.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 28, 2016)

xenon said:


> Don't you care about my children?


I wanted them to drink little bits of wine and eat outside on shit tables in the street.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 28, 2016)

Anju said:


> So what are you suggesting should happen. The 40+ years you refer to have been filled with our politicians blaming Europe for many of their mistakes. I can't think of any pro EU stories.
> 
> I don't see any massive paradigm change on the horizon.  To hope for this is to do nothing. Even with the power of social media, harnessed by big business and powerful enough to persuade people to sacrifice their lives for a cause the left has not made any progress. This referendum does offer a little hope but when Boris does his deals to further empower his friends in their quest to own everything and everyone people will just become more disenfranchised but they will not vote out the people that are I  charge they will take it out on whoever they have been led to believe is to blame.


What should happen t make the EU look good to people getting screwed by it until they agree with you?


----------



## xenon (Jun 28, 2016)

Anju said:


> So what are you suggesting should happen. The 40+ years you refer to have been filled with our politicians blaming Europe for many of their mistakes. I can't think of any pro EU stories.
> 
> I don't see any massive paradigm change on the horizon.  To hope for this is to do nothing. Even with the power of social media, harnessed by big business and powerful enough to persuade people to sacrifice their lives for a cause the left has not made any progress. This referendum does offer a little hope but when Boris does his deals to further empower his friends in their quest to own everything and everyone people will just become more disenfranchised but they will not vote out the people that are I  charge they will take it out on whoever they have been led to believe is to blame.


 I don't know. I   Didn't create this mess.  The same old same old. Join a union, talk to your neighbours, stand up for things   Or I could have just voted for remain. And then put my feet up.

 This is a serious reply. I need to do more, to do something.


----------



## coley (Jun 28, 2016)

free spirit said:


> there weren't any facts because nobody knew for sure what brexit would actually mean, and those campaigning for it abused that to make out that we could have everything that all leave campaigners wanted all at the same time.
> 
> At the point where this has been negotiated and there is a firm proposal on the table there would be facts that should be put to the british people to consider assuming that they're materially different to the bullshit version that the leave campaign just campaigned on.



Cameron went around Europe initially demanding, then resorted to asking and in the final round it sounded like pleading, in the end they gave him a few crumbs that would have easily been rescinded by the first challenge to the ECJ.
We are in uncharted territory, fair enough, but the course of the EU and the euro is essentially sailing over the edge, we might eventually be seen as a sheet anchor, but time will tell.


----------



## Anju (Jun 28, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> What should happen t make the EU look good to people getting screwed by it until they agree with you?



Persuade Norway to become full members and introduce their social policies. Concentrate on raising GDP per capita to Swiss levels, about double ours, so people feel rich enough to reject a basic universal salary that is higher than our minimum wage. Concentrate on workers rights and social housing provision. No national government is ever going to look further than the next election but they may do in Brussels and that is why I would rather stay in the EU. 

Right now we are fucked as we will have a very right wing government free to do what they please. If we had remained part of the EU at least we would have been saved from TTIP by France. Now we are probably looking at slowly becoming part of America and will be paying 16% of GDP for our healthcare.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 28, 2016)

Anju said:


> Persuade Norway to become full members and introduce their social policies. Concentrate on raising GDP per capita to Swiss levels, about double ours, so people feel rich enough to reject a basic universal salary that is higher than our minimum wage. Concentrate on workers rights and social housing provision. No national government is ever going to look further than the next election but they may do in Brussels and that is why I would rather stay in the EU.
> 
> Right now we are fucked as we will have a very right wing government free to do what they please. If we had remained part of the EU at least we would have been saved from TTIP by France. Now we are probably looking at slowly becoming part of America and will be paying 16% of GDP for our healthcare.


Just be richer and do good stuff. Double GDP. Thanks.

Moving on...


----------



## Anju (Jun 28, 2016)

xenon said:


> I don't know. I   Didn't create this mess.  The same old same old. Join a union, talk to your neighbours, stand up for things   Or I could have just voted for remain. And then put my feet up.
> 
> This is a serious reply. I need to do more, to do something.



I didn't create this mess either. See my above reply to butchersapron. I think it means look around at realistic and proven ways to make things better and maybe do them or to summarise Get rich and do good stuff, though I think s/he was insulting me rather than providing a neat summary.


----------



## Anju (Jun 28, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Just be richer and do good stuff. Double GDP. Thanks.
> 
> Moving on...



Yes, I will be moving on. Swiss GDP is about double ours and they offered a basic income of £1700 per month plus I think about £300 per child recently. Not sure what is wrong with wondering how they managed to get the money to do that. 

Why is it that my wishes to remain were overridden by you yet I am happy, while you seem aggressive and unhappy. Oh well.


----------



## Wookey (Jun 28, 2016)

Anju said:


> Why is it that my wishes to remain were overridden by you yet I am happy, while you seem aggressive and unhappy. Oh well.



He's caught withering negativity off the zeitgeist.


----------



## Anju (Jun 28, 2016)

Wookey said:


> He's caught withering negativity off the zeitgeist.



It seems so. Mind you I would be pretty negative if I had just potentially given BJ the keys to the country,  ripped out the ABS and sold the air bags to Trump.

Anyway, I am sleeping before brexit claims another nights sleep.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 28, 2016)

Anju said:


> Yes, I will be moving on. Swiss GDP is about double ours and they offered a basic income of £1700 per month plus I think about £300 per child recently. Not sure what is wrong with wondering how they managed to get the money to do that.
> 
> Why is it that my wishes to remain were overridden by you yet I am happy, while you seem aggressive and unhappy. Oh well.


Where did you wonder that then? All I saw was offering it as a next move.


----------



## Dandred (Jun 28, 2016)

England fans are taunting Europe with Brexit-inspired songs


----------



## killer b (Jun 28, 2016)

This piece is excellent - explains the left leave position better than anything else I've read, as well as why the working class have voted so overwhelmingly to go. “I want to stop something exploitative, divisive and dishonest” — conversation with a Leaver


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 28, 2016)

killer b said:


> This piece is excellent - explains the left leave position better than anything else I've read, as well as why the working class have voted so overwhelmingly to go. “I want to stop something exploitative, divisive and dishonest” — conversation with a Leaver


Yes, he gets it.  Alomost totally.

Tere is still a strong streak of paternalism in it - the w/c have lost their articulate m/c speaking for them since the since the miners strike for example - the w/c has never had problems being articulate. It has had problems in developing institutions through which those articulate voices can be adequately expressed. Either through direct attack or m/c do-gooding dominance.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 28, 2016)

...and i still don't get how you can look at what they did to the greek people and not be shaking in anger. I felt he was shaking too. And if you're shaking why are you pro-eu?


----------



## killer b (Jun 28, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> the w/c have lost their articulate m/c speaking for them since the since the miners strike for example - the w/c has never had problems being articulate. It has had problems in developing institutions through which those articulate voices can be adequately expressed. Either through direct attack or m/c do-gooding dominance.


Yes, that's true. thanks.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 28, 2016)

Banks have just hoovered up £3bn of liquidity from BoE.

Do we need a '_post-Brexit recession' watch_ thread?


----------



## 8den (Jun 28, 2016)

xenon said:


> Nutral facts. Like gravity.  But we need some more economists.  With the cold hard facts that they all agree on.[/QUOTE
> Economists in this situation is at best making informed guesses as to what happens next.


----------



## Cid (Jun 28, 2016)

Anju said:


> Yes, I will be moving on. Swiss GDP is about double ours and they offered a basic income of £1700 per month plus I think about £300 per child recently. Not sure what is wrong with wondering how they managed to get the money to do that.
> 
> Why is it that my wishes to remain were overridden by you yet I am happy, while you seem aggressive and unhappy. Oh well.



Nazi gold.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jun 28, 2016)




----------



## Anju (Jun 28, 2016)

killer b said:


> This piece is excellent - explains the left leave position better than anything else I've read, as well as why the working class have voted so overwhelmingly to go. “I want to stop something exploitative, divisive and dishonest” — conversation with a Leaver



I just read this and I can see why the guy insists his dad is not racist, he is just xenophobic and better than the working class he claims to have some social worker type interest in. 

To claim that the natural outcome of a group of people feeling disenfranchised is to run into the arms of the far right is nonsense. If you feel you are not represented you can choose how to respond. There is no excuse for racism. It is not a cry for help. Apologists for racist behaviour are only one thing. The guy actually described himself when he talked about deep seated bigots. 

Then he goes on to claim that the working class can not understand or articulate what this is all about. There may be an issue with differences in the restrictive and elaborative language people use but that exists because the groups that use the different types of communication don't mix. This is self inflicted by both groups.  If working class people don't understand it is because things are placed within terms of reference they are not familiar with.  The writer provides a fine example of this type of pointlessly pretentious, self aggrandising, nonsense himself .  "Leaving aside that this person has obviously never been to the wastelands of the Paris banlieue, that says it all, really "  Can you honestly claim to have any affinity with someone who would write that.

He also manages to get across really clearly what a thoughtless nationalistic  hypocrite, with no sense of responsibility to those he claims have solidarity with, he is.  The guy almost boasts about how he studied in and worked all over Europe, how he is doing really well and that his wife in from outside the EU, yet he is anti immigration. Why is he not concerned with the prospects of people from other countries. Personally I find it quite uplifting, and feel proud of my country when I meet people who have come here and made their lives better. He even has the balls, and this really illustrates what a self important smug I'm alright jack c##t he is when he admits he doesn't know if leaving the EU will work, and offers no suggestions as to what could be done. He has got to be an MP if he can advocate that level of careless experimentation with people's lives, while he will be OK himself and no doubt has properties to pass on to his kids so they will remain near the top of the social pile.

Is this really what you agree with. 

Now we will probably have Jeremy Hunt running against BJ, to ensure BJ wins. No viable opposition and are out of the EU which was the only thing protecting us from becoming the 51st state.


----------



## treelover (Jun 28, 2016)

See you in Trafalgar Square..


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 28, 2016)

Anju said:


> I just read this and I can see why the guy insists his dad is not racist, he is just xenophobic and better than the working class he claims to have some social worker type interest in.
> 
> To claim that the natural outcome of a group of people feeling disenfranchised is to run into the arms of the far right is nonsense. If you feel you are not represented you can choose how to respond. There is no excuse for racism. It is not a cry for help. Apologists for racist behaviour are only one thing. The guy actually described himself when he talked about deep seated bigots.
> 
> ...


Bit of bernstein 70s style socio-linguistics and yet she thinks touching people is the sign of a true european.


----------



## wheelie_bin (Jun 28, 2016)

Anju said:


> Persuade Norway to become full members and introduce their social policies.


Are you in the PLP that you think the only issue is in "persuading"? Norway has had referendums, they see the EU, they had plenty of "we'll become isolated and irrelevant and lose billions campaign messages" and they still don't want to join. Leave them alone.


----------



## Anju (Jun 28, 2016)

wheelie_bin said:


> Are you in the PLP that you think the only issue is in "persuading"? Norway has had referendums, they see the EU, they had plenty of "we'll become isolated and irrelevant and lose billions campaign messages" and they still don't want to join. Leave them alone.



No, I was at a wedding in Spain with about 200 Norwegians last month. They have no interest in the EU as far as I can tell. I just like the way their government looks after people.


----------



## wheelie_bin (Jun 28, 2016)

Yeah, so let's just do what they do instead of pretending the EU would do anything other than hinder that.


----------



## Anju (Jun 28, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Bit of bernstein 70s style socio-linguistics and yet she thinks touching people is the sign of a true european.



What a well reasoned reply.  I guess because what I wrote was personal opinion and not based on a book you have no pre- programed response other than the linguistics bit. I can't work out if you have been touched too much or too little.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 28, 2016)

Anju said:


> What a well reasoned reply.  I guess because what I wrote was personal opinion and not based on a book you have no pre- programed response other than the linguistics bit. I can't work out if you have been touched too much or too little.


Right - you just happened to base your reply on Bernsteins book  Language and Social Class and use the jargon from it by accident  - not due to none of that old book learnin'.


----------



## Wookey (Jun 28, 2016)

Anju said:


> I can't work out if you have been touched too much or too little.



Tea-keyboard interface moment.


----------



## Anju (Jun 28, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Bit of bernstein 70s style socio-linguistics and yet she thinks touching people is the sign of a true european.



Why do you think I am female. Is it because you don't like me, are misogynistic, and therefore assume I am female. It is quite telling.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 28, 2016)

Anju said:


> Why do you think I am female. Is it because you don't like me, are misogynistic, and therefore assume I am female. It is quite telling.


Because i thought that you said that you were. If you're not - great! Terrible way to avoid my post and you getting a bit caught out.


----------



## killer b (Jun 28, 2016)

Anju said:


> To claim that the natural outcome of a group of people feeling disenfranchised is to run into the arms of the far right is nonsense. If you feel you are not represented you can choose how to respond. There is no excuse for racism. It is not a cry for help. Apologists for racist behaviour are only one thing. The guy actually described himself when he talked about deep seated bigots.


_Choice_ huh. I wonder why so many people chose this route? Perhaps it was because they didn't feel they had any choices?

If you chalk so many people's _choice_ up to bigotry and racism, where does that leave them left to go? Or you, for that matter?


----------



## Anju (Jun 28, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Because i thought that you said that you were. If you're not - great! Terrible way to avoid my post and you getting a bit caught out.



I never mentioned my gender and there is no reason for me to have, so no reason for you to think that. I don't have a degree, have never studied sociology, psychology or any similar subject. You clearly have yet it has not helped you quell your racist and sexist feelings. I am sorry.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 28, 2016)

Anju said:


> I never mentioned my gender and there is no reason for me to have, so no reason for you to think that. I don't have a degree, have never studied sociology, psychology or any similar subject. You clearly have yet it has not helped you quell your racist and sexist feelings. I am sorry.


How did you end up using the jargon of Bernstein and his book if you ain't that fancy and don't read books then? (And you actually used it back to front).

(This didn't happen and hasn't repeatedly happened Spymaster as you didn't see it)


----------



## Anju (Jun 28, 2016)

killer b said:


> _Choice_ huh. I wonder why so many people chose this route? Perhaps it was because they didn't feel they had any choices?
> 
> If you chalk so many people's _choice_ up to bigotry and racism, where does that leave them left to go? Or you, for that matter?



You are excusing racist thinking and behaviour. I am going to take my daughter, who is mixed race for a driving lesson so she does not have to share a bus with closet racist dicks who excuse the racism of others to help relieve the guilt they feel within themselves. That you and butchers apron can agree with the article you posted a link to is beyond belief. Read it with your eyes open.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 28, 2016)

Renzi's comments almost make me wish I'd voted leave...


> t’s impossible to belong to [the] community only with the good things, and not with the bad things. In every family, if you belong to [the] family, you must accept the good things and the bad things. It is impossible to speak only about the single market and [not] accept the politics about migration. *It’s impossible to be very communitarian about the economy and not about values.* This is the problem, in my view, about this campaign.


Those values!


----------



## Anju (Jun 28, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> How did you end up using the jargon of Bernstein and his book if you ain't that fancy and don't read books then? (And you actually used it back to front)



Because I heard it somewhere years ago and the pretentious line in the article reminded me.


----------



## camouflage (Jun 28, 2016)

I'll just drop my nomination for Brexit facepalm of the year here if that's ok...


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 28, 2016)

Weird that seat #123 doesn't appear in the eu's brussels named seating plan at all.


----------



## killer b (Jun 28, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Weird that seat #123 doesn't appear in the eu's brussels named seating plan at all.


it's one of the commission seats, bottom right in the shaded area.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 28, 2016)

killer b said:


> it's one of the commission seats, bottom right in the shaded area.


Ta. It was the name attached to it i meant though. It's prob there and i missed it.  So a member of the thing farage was attacking didn't agree that he was shit and had never done a proper job in his life. If we could put a name to it (which is why i was checking) we may be able to fact-check.


----------



## killer b (Jun 28, 2016)

presume the numbers in the shaded areas must not be reserved for individuals?


----------



## camouflage (Jun 28, 2016)

for additional chuckles, an animated version...


----------



## ffsear (Jun 28, 2016)

.
seat 123 comes into view at 50 mins 20 seconds,  don't recognise his face


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 28, 2016)

killer b said:


> presume the numbers in the shaded areas must not be reserved for individuals?


Quite possibly. I just want this persons name to check it outand make the ducks sharing this look daft. Come on EU, stop hiding in the shaded areas!


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 28, 2016)

He could be seat 166 as well.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 28, 2016)

Yeah, that won't be seat 123, but the one behind it.


----------



## ffsear (Jun 28, 2016)

???


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 28, 2016)

Look at this authoritarian shit:

 

_You will jog for the master race
And always wear the happy face_


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 28, 2016)

He can't even pace his lines properly.


----------



## inva (Jun 28, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> He can't even pace his lines properly.


you'd think he'd have learnt after the 1st time


----------



## NoXion (Jun 28, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Look at this authoritarian shit:
> 
> View attachment 88975
> 
> ...



The EU really is the same thing as Europe for these people, isn't it?


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Jun 28, 2016)

Anju said:


> *To claim that the natural outcome of a group of people feeling disenfranchised is to run into the arms of the far right is nonsense.*
> 
> *If you feel you are not represented you can choose how to respond.
> 
> ...



1. That isn't what the article claims. It is not about people feeling disenfranchised; it is about them being disenfranchised. We live in a system of representative democracy, where there is little or no representation on offer for large sections of the multi-ethnic working class; as has been said many many times before, this creates a political vacuum which will be filled...hopefully from the left with politics that celebrates the necessarily inclusive solidarity, care and ambition of the working class, but if not then it will be divisive stories of race, nation or even a very singular and fearful me and mine.

2. It is naïve to think that any of us are really free to choose our political responses; we may have more or less choices available (which is much of the thrust of the piece) but to think we are not all of us circumscribed to some degree by the circumstances which have produced those choices, is akin to day dreaming.

3. I read the article as an attempted explanation not an excuse. I am also not willing to claim to understand every angry working class cross, so that I can assert with certainty that not one was a 'cry for help' even when articulated in terms of immigrants putting downward pressure on terms and conditions.

4. Again I read not an apology but an attempt to understand; not something written by a deep seated bigot, but by somebody trying to come to terms with a shock...I don't think he is entirely successful but he is having a go.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## Purdie (Jun 28, 2016)

Anju said:


> Worldwide inequality is reducing but in the UK it increasing.


Source and link??


----------



## Corax (Jun 28, 2016)

The referendum didn't go far enough.

I demand the repatriation of Ceylon and Southern Rhodesia.  And Florida.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 28, 2016)

Corax said:


> The referendum didn't go far enough.
> 
> I demand the repatriation of Ceylon and Southern Rhodesia.  And Florida.


Never mind that, what about the plantagenet possessions of Henry Fitzempress, Henry II? They should revert to British rule


----------



## camouflage (Jun 28, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Never mind that, what about the plantagenet possessions of Henry Fitzempress, Henry II? They should revert to British rule



_"Dieu et mon droit" muddafuckaz._


----------



## camouflage (Jun 28, 2016)

This.

“I want to stop something exploitative, divisive and dishonest” — conversation with a Leaver


----------



## camouflage (Jun 28, 2016)

And this, definitely more broadly this...

The EU locked in neoliberalism and locked out its people. Brexit is the alternative


----------



## free spirit (Jun 28, 2016)

(picking up on one of the points in the linked blog post)
One of the key problems with Eu immigrants being able to undercut local wages is the UK's adoption of the Swedish derogation to the agency workers directive  which provides an exemption that allows companies to work through agencies to undercut local wages.

The problem with it being that it's an opt out that the UK chose to adopt, the EU didn't force it to, and the UK parliament has the ability to change this situation by itself by amending the UK legislation that put the directive into UK law.

But it's not done that.



> 2. As regards pay, Member States may, after consulting the social partners, provide that an exemption be made to the principle established in paragraph 1 where temporary agency workers who have a permanent contract of employment with a temporary-work agency continue to be paid in the time between assignments.



The EU wanted to put in place measures that would reduce the impact of free movement of labour on local pay and conditions, but the UK government implemented a loophole that meant that it the directive had minimal impact here.

I don't get why it is that the EU is blamed to the extent that we end up exiting the EU while the UK government who actually did this seem to have got off with minimal damage. I can only assume that it's because it was a Labour government that did it, and the tories and lib dems who kept it, so none of them could make a party political point out of it.


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Jun 28, 2016)

> xenon said: ↑
> Don't you care about my children?





butchersapron said:


> I wanted them to drink little bits of wine and eat outside on shit tables in the street.


favourite post so far


----------



## Corax (Jun 28, 2016)

camouflage said:


> _"Dieu et mon droit" muddafuckaz._


((((peasant maidens)))


----------



## Supine (Jun 29, 2016)




----------



## phildwyer (Jun 29, 2016)

camouflage said:


> And this, definitely more broadly this...
> 
> The EU locked in neoliberalism and locked out its people. Brexit is the alternative



Yep.  Sums up my reasons for favoring Brexit better than I could: "_In a nutshell, the EU emerged through the rescaling of governance to inter-elite networks insulated – by design – from popular control, which lock in anti-democratic and conservative policies."_


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 29, 2016)

"One of the key problems with Eu immigrants being able to undercut local wages is the UK's adoption of the Swedish derogation to the agency workers directive"

aside from a seriously


well now i can see why a free market might not be the best proposition  for the UK after article 50


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 29, 2016)

the 'lol people in those areas who voted out are the ones that get the most money' was remiding me of something. Not that its nonsense cos its the business owners getting the subsidies that then are not passed onto the worker in form of higher wages. It reminded me of that sneer about rioters. 'Why do they trash their own areas? lol the idiots' they never owned it and are reminded daily


Louis MacNeice said:


> t celebrates the necessarily inclusive solidarity, care and ambition of the working class


bring back methodism I say


----------



## phildwyer (Jun 29, 2016)

Not sure if this has been posted yet.  Great article from the always-excellent Matt Taibi:

"Were I British, I'd probably have voted to Remain. But it's not hard to understand being pissed off at being subject to unaccountable bureaucrats in Brussels. Nor is it hard to imagine the post-Brexit backlash confirming every suspicion you might have about the people who run the EU.  Imagine having pundits and professors suggest you should have your voting rights curtailed because you voted Leave. Now imagine these same people are calling voters like you "children," and castigating you for being insufficiently appreciative of, say, the joys of submitting to a European Supreme Court that claims primacy over the Magna Carta and the Bill of Rights."

The Reaction to Brexit Is the Reason Brexit Happened


----------



## seventh bullet (Jun 29, 2016)

killer b said:


> This piece is excellent - explains the left leave position better than anything else I've read, as well as why the working class have voted so overwhelmingly to go. “I want to stop something exploitative, divisive and dishonest” — conversation with a Leaver



Ugh, middle class paternalism.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Jun 29, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> bring back methodism I say



What have you got against Methodism...apart from the no drinking, no gambling stuff...oh and the god bit?

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## JimW (Jun 29, 2016)

Louis MacNeice said:


> What have you got against Methodism...apart from the no drinking, no gambling stuff...oh and the god bit?
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice


Seem to recall EP Thompson really laid into Methodism in Making of the English Working Class. Sublimated sexual frenzy to prop up the old order. Sounds more exciting than a coffee morning for the Africa missions, mind.


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Jun 29, 2016)

Lapavistas on Brexit: 



> Now, at the same time what we also have is an advanced and very prevalent sense that the lower social classes in Britain have of loss of control over their environment, loss of sovereignty over their own country, and a decline in democracy. The two go together. And that's the biggest lesson of the referendum: sovereignty and democracy and command over the conditions of life--and, in a sense, the country--for poor people go together. There was a prevalent sense of loss in Britain.
> 
> Now, the upper class, the rich, the better-off, the upper middle class all came out in favor of remaining in the E.U. It was natural, natural that the poor would come out against and say no, no, we don't want that. And that's what happened. <snip>
> 
> ...


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Jun 29, 2016)

His comments at the end are kind of interesting too, about the reaction on Greek left:



> I came here to Athens yesterday after the British vote in the evening. I saw the climate in London in the morning and the climate in Athens in the evening. No one expected, of course, this direction of voting. Greek establishment was certain that Remain would win. And how wrong were they? There was great shock this morning.
> 
> But among the left, especially the left that is radical and ready to continue the fight for justice and different policies in Greece and recapturing democracy and sovereignty in Greece, the result has been greeted with elation, I have to tell you. The result was actually a boost, a great boost to the radical left that wishes to continue the fight that was basically abandoned by SYRIZA last summer when it surrendered to the lenders. This was a great boost.
> 
> ...


 source above


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 29, 2016)

JimW said:


> Seem to recall EP Thompson really laid into Methodism in Making of the English Working Class. Sublimated sexual frenzy to prop up the old order. Sounds more exciting than a coffee morning for the Africa missions, mind.


In his case it was sublimated father-killing.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 29, 2016)

Bernie Gunther said:


> His comments at the end are kind of interesting too, about the reaction on Greek left:
> 
> source above


Makes a simple but important point. When people (ok remain voters) point out UK austerity didn't come from the EU and was 'homegrown' they ignore that it was actually those that imposed austerity without the EU who were the main political backers of the EU and Remain.. So any anti-austerity impulse, anything against these scumbags had to be anti-eu. Politically, to refuse the option to ruin their plans by voting leave could only be seen as pro-austerity.


----------



## Anju (Jun 29, 2016)

Louis MacNeice said:


> 1. That isn't what the article claims. It is not about people feeling disenfranchised; it is about them being disenfranchised. We live in a system of representative democracy, where there is little or no representation on offer for large sections of the multi-ethnic working class; as has been said many many times before, this creates a political vacuum which will be filled...hopefully from the left with politics that celebrates the necessarily inclusive solidarity, care and ambition of the working class, but if not then it will be divisive stories of race, nation or even a very singular and fearful me and mine.
> 
> 2. It is naïve to think that any of us are really free to choose our political responses; we may have more or less choices available (which is much of the thrust of the piece) but to think we are not all of us circumscribed to some degree by the circumstances which have produced those choices, is akin to day dreaming.
> 
> ...



Nice reasoned thoughtful reply.

My main problem is that he is claiming that people are attracted to the far right because they don't understand what is going on in the world and that this is somehow the default response, therefore making it acceptable.  "They knew there was something wrong round the immigration business, even if they didn’t quite know what it was and mixed it up with other, nastier stuff"   and  ".they tend to blame the new arrivals rather than the system driving them."

Whether intended as explanation or excuse, it is making being racist easier by  normalising and playing down how serious it is.  My niece suffered aggressive verbal abuse the morning of the result. She was with her 7 year old daughter and while my niece is OK her daughter is finding it difficult to deal with.
Hiding behind a political argument is just putting 

There is also a sense of I'm better than the working class and those low skilled immigrants running through the article


Louis MacNeice said:


> 1. That isn't what the article claims. It is not about people feeling disenfranchised; it is about them being disenfranchised. We live in a system of representative democracy, where there is little or no representation on offer for large sections of the multi-ethnic working class; as has been said many many times before, this creates a political vacuum which will be filled...hopefully from the left with politics that celebrates the necessarily inclusive solidarity, care and ambition of the working class, but if not then it will be divisive stories of race, nation or even a very singular and fearful me and mine.
> 
> 2. It is naïve to think that any of us are really free to choose our political responses; we may have more or less choices available (which is much of the thrust of the piece) but to think we are not all of us circumscribed to some degree by the circumstances which have produced those choices, is akin to day dreaming.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the well reasoned and thoughtful reply. I am going to post my thoughts on what I wrote in a separate post. It will sort of address what you have written, though not directly and is not aimed at you.


----------



## wheelie_bin (Jun 29, 2016)

phildwyer said:


> Not sure if this has been posted yet.  Great article from the always-excellent Matt Taibi:
> 
> "Were I British, I'd probably have voted to Remain. But it's not hard to understand being pissed off at being subject to unaccountable bureaucrats in Brussels. Nor is it hard to imagine the post-Brexit backlash confirming every suspicion you might have about the people who run the EU.  Imagine having pundits and professors suggest you should have your voting rights curtailed because you voted Leave. Now imagine these same people are calling voters like you "children," and castigating you for being insufficiently appreciative of, say, the joys of submitting to a European Supreme Court that claims primacy over the Magna Carta and the Bill of Rights."
> 
> The Reaction to Brexit Is the Reason Brexit Happened


I liked this, in particular this part of the ending:
_It doesn't mean much to be against torture until the moment when you're most tempted to resort to it, or to have faith in voting until the result of a particular vote really bothers you. If you think there's ever such a thing as "too much democracy," you probably never believed in it in the first place. _


----------



## mauvais (Jun 30, 2016)

ffsear said:


> ???
> View attachment 88974


Thoughts from #WeAreSeat123 - European Commission


----------



## ffsear (Jun 30, 2016)




----------



## hot air baboon (Jun 30, 2016)

...the optimal compromise is probably a straight swap of we keep paying the net £10 billion into the kitty to get single market access and ditch the political stuff & free-movement ( moving to insisting on job offers, specific skills etc..)  ....a bit like the Common Market really....

....this could be acceptbale to the following key strands of opinion : whilst the federalists in EU bureaucracy are gung-ho for Brexit & see it as re-invigorating the integration project the realists are hardly delighted to wave good bye to the 2nd biggest net contributor even if we are a constant pain-in-the-arse. Most national governments and the business lobby groups can also see what a mutual-assured cluster-fuck it would be to all sides to go hostile on this process and start trade war tit-for-tat....


----------



## newbie (Jun 30, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Makes a simple but important point. When people (ok remain voters) point out UK austerity didn't come from the EU and was 'homegrown' they ignore that it was actually those that imposed austerity without the EU who were the main political backers of the EU and Remain.. So any anti-austerity impulse, anything against these scumbags had to be anti-eu. Politically, to refuse the option to ruin their plans by voting leave could only be seen as pro-austerity.



nah.  Londoners, in particular, have some long, hard thinking to do for sure but to characterise 78% of voters in Lambeth and >60% in most inner London boroughs as being pro-austerity is simply wrong.


----------



## gosub (Jun 30, 2016)

hot air baboon said:


> ...the optimal compromise is probably a straight swap of we keep paying the net £10 billion into the kitty to get single market access and ditch the political stuff & free-movement ( insisting on job offers, specific skills etc..)  ....a bit like the Common Market really....
> 
> ....this could be acceptbale to the following key strands of opinion : whilst the federalists in EU bureaucracy are gung-ho for Brexit & see it as re-invigorating the integration project the realists are hardly delighted to wave good bye to the 2nd biggest net contributor even if we are a constant pain-in-the-arse. Most national governments and the business lobby groups can also see what a mutual-assured cluster-fuck it would be to all sides to go hostile on this process and start trade war tit-for-tat....



Keep free movement whilst applying to EFTA. We are not Lichtenstein nor Iceland (and are more likely to get membership if we grasp states with under half a million population have different dynamics).   Issue might possibly be revisited at later date, possibly at the same time as the Swiss.

And its not the same kitty.  The ancillaries are: Erasmus, Science....the things you need to tell your MP if you want them to fight for them. The rest of it would be like EEA Grants (or the Norway Grants) - reappraise how we help.

But yep, closer to the Common Market than locked in the attic of a Federal Union.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 30, 2016)

I dislike the look at the comments on this article elsewhere type posts, but i'm going to do one myself as i really think these really deserve to be read - as does the article itself. We're beyond dog-whistle here:

Martin’s already lost almost everything – he voted leave to spread the pain


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Jun 30, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> I dislike the look at the comments on this article elsewhere type posts, but i'm going to do one myself as i really think these really deserve to be read - as does the article itself. We're beyond dog-whistle here:
> 
> Martin’s already lost almost everything – he voted leave to spread the pain



This exchange is worth re-posting:

Kakerlake 
9m ago
01
'It was a chance to kick the whole establishment where it hurt, for us to send pain the other way. And we took it.'

The thing is, you daft bitter prick, you've not just kicked the establishment but the prospects of the entire youth of the country. Well done.

 Reply
Report







PaulGil1  Kakerlake 
3m ago
01
Wooooaaahhhh, calm down eh!!! Your favourite paper has scoured the streets for fucking days for the right person so you can parade your moral outrage without fear of comeback and feel superior to a homeless man! Have some respect for dogged journalism , determined to uncover the answer which proves the narrative.

Not very cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 30, 2016)

'So true. Why don't these people just stop moaning, get on their bikes and find work lol. The fact is, the immigrants are generally much harder workers than we are. They put us to shame with their superior work ethic'  peak guardian


----------



## Ole (Jun 30, 2016)

-Another loser who blames the EU for his own failures.​
-Hear hear. Personal responsibility seems to be a thing of the past.​
-So true. Why don't these people just stop moaning, get on their bikes and find work lol. The fact is, the immigrants are generally much harder workers than we are. They put us to shame with their superior work ethic.
​
_As of last year, Parker’s council has increased his council tax by 130%. He’s been taken to court twice for non-payment and has just had a third summons._​
-If he is unable to pay for a third time, will that mean he will go to prison? At least in prison he has a roof over his head and 3 meals a day.​
-If prisons so great why don't we all go?​
-I wasn't suggesting it is great by any means, but might be better than they way he is living now.​


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 30, 2016)

btw,  the 33rd British social attitudes survey was published today.



> We find Britain divided along class lines. Nearly 8 in 10 of us think that the divide between social classes is wide or very wide. We are less likely now to think it possible to move between social classes than in the past, reflecting, perhaps, the fact that social mobility is not what it once was.
> 
> We observe a reaction against cuts in the form of increased support for higher spending on benefits for people who are disabled and single parents. But towards people without a job, especially those who don’t have children, the public remains unsympathetic.



Here's some class stuff from it.


----------



## Corax (Jun 30, 2016)

phildwyer said:


> "Were I British, I'd probably have voted to Remain. But it's not hard to understand being pissed off at being subject to unaccountable bureaucrats in Brussels. Nor is it hard to imagine the post-Brexit backlash confirming every suspicion you might have about the people who run the EU.  Imagine having pundits and professors suggest you should have your voting rights curtailed because you voted Leave. Now imagine these same people are calling voters like you "children,"


Nicely put.  I'd still vote Remain on balance, but the reaction to the result has been fucking disgusting.


----------



## Anju (Jul 1, 2016)

The far right in Austria used a campaign similar to our leave campaign. No I am not accusing leave voters of being far right.  Just concerned that we are potentially heading in that direction if politicians and media continue to use xenophobic language and images.

 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36681475


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Jul 1, 2016)

EU Exit Roadmap outlined here by the looks of it:

Exclusive: Nigel Farage's Plan for UK Departure of the EU


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 1, 2016)

Anju said:


> The far right in Austria used a campaign similar to our leave campaign. No I am not accusing leave voters of being far right.  Just concerned that we are potentially heading in that direction if politicians and media continue to use xenophobic language and images.
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36681475


I learnt a great word today: preterition (see also Apophasis).


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Jul 1, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> I learnt a great word today: preterition (see also Apophasis).



They are good aren't they.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## treelover (Jul 1, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> btw,  the 33rd British social attitudes survey was published today.
> 
> 
> 
> Here's some class stuff from it.




Not surprised, there apart from small Unite Community groups, no big movement against unemployment anymore, I was expecting the attitude to sick and disabled to soften as well.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jul 1, 2016)

JimW said:


> Seem to recall EP Thompson really laid into Methodism in Making of the English Working Class. Sublimated sexual frenzy to prop up the old order. Sounds more exciting than a coffee morning for the Africa missions, mind.


the foreword (one of three) in the edition I'm halfway through hilariously adresses this by using scholarly language to say 'I know I have been getting shit for dissing methodism, but I am right so ner'


----------



## Idris2002 (Jul 1, 2016)

EPT is great and all, but. . .

He relies on Freudian dream analysis for his taking of the stick to the Methodism, and since that particular paradigm is not one taken seriously by anyone serious today. . .


----------



## DotCommunist (Jul 1, 2016)

Idris2002 said:


> EPT is great and all, but. . .
> 
> He relies on Freudian dream analysis for his taking of the stick to the Methodism, and since that particular paradigm is not one taken seriously by anyone serious today. . .


I'm not even at the bit where he puts that boot in. Still raging at the child labour bits, something I'd never considered of the practise 'monotony is especially cruel to a child'. The 'obvious when you are informed' sort of fact. That and a 7 year old running down to mill with his piece of bread, bawling cos he's late for work. Work! Its one thing to learn about these practises when you are a child, in school. Another when you read them as grown up and the fires of hatred for Them are stoked hot once more.


----------



## Idris2002 (Jul 1, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> I'm not even at the bit where he puts that boot in. Still raging at the child labour bits, something I'd never considered of the practise 'monotony is especially cruel to a child'. The 'obvious when you are informed' sort of fact. That and a 7 year old running down to mill with his piece of bread, bawling cos he's late for work. Work! Its one thing to learn about these practises when you are a child, in school. Another when you read them as grown up and the fires of hatred for Them are stoked hot once more.


"This is where I saw the Leperachaun. He tells me to burn things".


----------



## Anju (Jul 1, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> I learnt a great word today: preterition (see also Apophasis).



Idealism, naivety, denial?

Do you not see it as a possibility.  Austria is pretty similar to the UK, especially as lack of social mobility is at least in part driven by relatively poor education system.  I was sent the link I posted by an Austrian friend who has lived here for 17 years and sees parallels between here and there.

A large part of the rise of the far right there is in response to racist anti immigration political rhetoric combined with the recent influx of refugees, as well as a history of steady immigration.  Wage inequality is lower than the UK and living standards are better, along with more representative voting system. So essentially less of the factors I believe you view as responsible for people voting for far right parties.

Immigration is the top issue for people in this country, according to ipsos concerns survey, and this is clearly not going to be addressed following our departure from the EU.  Add on the fact that non EU migrants will continue to come here and people are going to feel more angry and unrepresented than they do now. Even if the current government increase funding for the NHS, which needs to be done anyway, people will not really feel this but they will still be seeing and hearing foreign people. 

Then you have the potential, very high in my opinion,  that people may be poorer if the economy slows.

All this means that the country will be moving to the right. How far I can't say but I see nothing different about the people of Austria so I fear we can also go that far.  I certainly doubt we have seen the end of UKIP, though maybe rebranded.

If you can't see this as a possibility I can always add myopic to your list of new words.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Dec 16, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> Oh, because I'm stupid. Haven't you heard?
> 
> All of us who voted remain, who wanted to keep this country out of isolation are....



What business is Brexit for an Irish man?


----------



## krtek a houby (Dec 16, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> What business is Brexit for an Irish man?



LOL. Because I called you out on your racism against Irish people on the other thread; you've decided to resurrect this old thread?

Tragic.


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## Magnus McGinty (Dec 16, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> LOL. Because I called you out on your racism against Irish people on the other thread; you've decided to resurrect this old thread?
> 
> Tragic.



Are you actually British then? What has Brexit to do with you?


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## krtek a houby (Dec 16, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Are you actually British then? What has Brexit to do with you?



Fuck off you racist bellend.


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## Magnus McGinty (Dec 16, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> Fuck off you racist bellend.



What business is Brexit to an Irish man? Nobody is saying Ireland has to leave the union now are they?


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## The39thStep (Dec 16, 2016)

Just to sober up the hangovers of the 'left' Remainers . The EU has responded to the Greek Governments raising of old age pensions for the poorest by suspending debt relief to the country.


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## krtek a houby (Dec 16, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> What business is Brexit to an Irish man? Nobody is saying Ireland has to leave the union now are they?



So, only _British_ people should have a say on it? All the others who live and work in your country should keep quiet about it?

Racist clown.


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## Magnus McGinty (Dec 16, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> So, only _British_ people should have a say on it? All the others who live and work in your country should keep quiet about it?
> 
> Racist clown.



Oh, so despite your bleating you don't even live in Ireland?


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## Pickman's model (Dec 16, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Oh, so despite your bleating you won't even live in Ireland?


c4u


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## krtek a houby (Dec 16, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Oh, so despite your bleating you don't even live in Ireland?



Do you?

And again, should only _British_ people should have a say on it? All the others who live and work in your country should keep quiet about it?


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## Magnus McGinty (Dec 16, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> Do you?
> 
> And again, should only _British_ people should have a say on it? All the others who live and work in your country should keep quiet about it?



Do you still work in the media?


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## krtek a houby (Dec 16, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Do you still work in the media?



So, let me get this straight. Elsewhere, you, a British person, are telling Irish people that they should support a murderous terrorist group because they "liberated" Ireland. But here, you're telling an Irish person (and presumably all other non British folk who live and work in the UK) that they shouldn't have a vote/a say in the politics of the country they are in?

Are you actually going to answer any of the questions posed or are you going to clog up pages for your own amusement? That's the real reason you resurrected this thread, isn't it?


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## Magnus McGinty (Dec 16, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> Do you?
> 
> And again, should only _British_ people should have a say on it? All the others who live and work in your country should keep quiet about it?



Iirc only British people and those from commonwealth countries could vote. 
Not my rules.


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## Magnus McGinty (Dec 16, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> So, let me get this straight. Elsewhere, you, a British person, are telling Irish people that they should support a murderous terrorist group because they "liberated" Ireland. But here, you're telling an Irish person (and presumably all other non British folk who live and work in the UK) that they shouldn't have a vote/a say in the politics of the country they are in?
> 
> Are you actually going to answer any of the questions posed or are you going to clog up pages for your own amusement? That's the real reason you resurrected this thread, isn't it?



I didn't write the Brexit rules did I?


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## krtek a houby (Dec 16, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Iirc only British people and those from commonwealth countries could vote.
> Not my rules.



That's not answering the question, though, is it?


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## krtek a houby (Dec 16, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I didn't write the Brexit rules did I?



I see. More trolling.


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## Magnus McGinty (Dec 16, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> That's not answering the question, though, is it?



Is Ireland a commonwealth country?


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## krtek a houby (Dec 16, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Is Ireland a commonwealth country?



Are you going to answer the questions posed or continue to troll?


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## Magnus McGinty (Dec 16, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> Are you going to answer the questions posed or continue to troll?



What questions?


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## krtek a houby (Dec 16, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> What questions?



Are you going to answer the questions posed or continue to troll?


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## Pickman's model (Dec 16, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> What questions?


the questions  the questions  are you going to answer the fucking questions? 

you're not answering the fucking questions


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## Magnus McGinty (Dec 16, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> Are you going to answer the questions posed or continue to troll?



I've said who I believe was permitted to vote In the EU referendum. Were there any other questions?


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## krtek a houby (Dec 16, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I've said who I believe was permitted to vote In the EU referendum. Were there any other questions?



You seem to believe I shouldn't have the right to vote in this country because I'm Irish. You infer that it's nothing to do with me because of my nationality. You refuse to say whether you're British or not. You won't say why you've resurrected this particular thread. On another thread you're saying Irish people should support the IRA. You're kind of all over the shop.


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## Pickman's model (Dec 16, 2016)

Anju said:


> Idealism, naivety, denial


your new tagline


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## Magnus McGinty (Dec 16, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> You seem to believe I shouldn't have the right to vote in this country because I'm Irish. You infer that it's nothing to do with me because of my nationality. You refuse to say whether you're British or not. You won't say why you've resurrected this particular thread. On another thread you're saying Irish people should support the IRA. You're kind of all over the shop.



I don't see any questions in that lot.


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## krtek a houby (Dec 16, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I am trolling you and getting my rocks off. tee hee.



FIFY


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## Lazy Llama (Dec 16, 2016)

Just don't.


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## Magnus McGinty (Dec 16, 2016)

I got a warning for that? Vic Reeves style too.


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## Pickman's model (Dec 16, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I got a warning for that? Vic Reeves style too.


how many warning points do you have now?


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## Magnus McGinty (Dec 16, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> how many warning points do you have now?



Just 1.


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Dec 23, 2016)

Brexit Wonderland.

Turns out Alt-right's Brit cousins

Are giant snowflakes.


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## Pickman's model (Dec 23, 2016)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Brexit Wonderland.
> 
> Turns out Alt-right's Brit cousins
> 
> Are giant snowflakes.


SOUTHeastPOEM's thread >>>


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## butchersapron (Jan 4, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> Just to sober up the hangovers of the 'left' Remainers . The EU has responded to the Greek Governments raising of old age pensions for the poorest by suspending debt relief to the country.


Bit more info on what happened here - utter arseholes:

EU suspends Greek debt relief over pensioners' bonus

Last week, Greek prime minister Alexis Tsipras said that €617 million would be distributed as Christmas bonuses to 1.6 million pensioners who live on €800 or less a month.

On Wednesday morning, Germany asked the creditor institutions - the European Commission, the European Central Bank (ECB), the European Stability Mechanism (ESM), and the International Monetary Fund (IMF) - whether that was compatible with the bailout programme agreed last year.

In the afternoon, the institutions said the programme was not being respected and that the debt relief deal should be frozen.


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## redsquirrel (Jan 4, 2017)

Don't really know what to say, just utterly despicable.


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## The39thStep (Jan 4, 2017)

Obviously this will fall under the selective amnesia diagnosis that most 'left' remainders suffer from


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## DotCommunist (Jan 4, 2017)

its quite deliberate punishment there isn't it? A needless spite


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## pocketscience (Jan 4, 2017)

Has been from the start. they're nothing but vindictive sociopaths
all within a month of bailing out another bank to the tune of 20 Billion without the bat of an eyelid...


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