# miners strike 84/85



## bezzer (May 29, 2002)

I was a bit to young to remember it my self. Just doing some reading at the moment on it…. some of the first hand account from people in the mining communities, makes me feel fucking angry, I got this from…

http://www.shu.ac.uk/services/lc/people/underm~1/intro.htm

oral account of  police intimidation towards miners… 

“We had days just as bad as Orgreave but not on as big a scale. They'd say with a megaphone, 'Now if you don't stop throwing stones the horses are coming out',' and we'd look round and no one was throwing stones. He'd say it three times and the next thing they'd be coming through. It was just a gesture to condone what they were doing. It was like a battle. Margaret Thatcher talked about 'the enemy within', and it very quickly became that as far as the establishment were concerned. I really did feel as though we were in a war - they were doing everything they could to us - violence, intimidation. Whatever we did to them were fair.” 

“Laws were invoked against us but we thought we had some on our side. But what happened... The police would say when we went picketing, 'I'm sorry, you're not allowed in Nottingham, it’s closed to miners.' We weren't allowed in. We were kept a long way from the pits when we went picketing so that we were kept away from those who had some sympathy with us or who felt ashamed. The phrase we used to use on a regular basis was, 'They can't stop you doing that, can they? It's law, isn't it?' But it were incredible - they were using laws that had come out with the Tolpuddle Martyrs. They'd been on the books all the time. They'd just stop you doing whatever they wanted, when they wanted.”

 I’m Just interested really, if anyone on hear, took part in the miners strike, and remembers some of the brutality that was involved or what was going on in the media at the time and ultimately why and how the pitt closures went ahead.


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## TinyCrendon (May 29, 2002)

when i was at uni in reading a mate was staying on the floor and he was from wales. his mate was a (face working) miner on £92 a week for a 40 hour week. he came to reading to see if he could get any work cash in hand coz he'd been starved out. lived with us 4/5 months. sold everything, his car etc etc because the miners were refused all benefits. eventually he was paid off went to live in spain. he was just an ordinary guy and it ruined him, like lots of them. destroyed them.

when the strike ended i was still at Reading & was unfortunate to be passing the student bar and all the poshy types had gathered to celebrate. i was a near-totally unpolitical guy at the time but it made me fucking sick. what was it to them ?

also the arrest rate was huge but the conviction rate at the strikes was tiny. i think in total there were four or five prison sentences in the whole strike. hundereds of peeps were aquitted because people were just rounded up, it was a crime. to destroy our own people like that.

and the media made up so much shit...about Scargill getting money from Libya for example...


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## vimto (May 29, 2002)

I was politically active during the Miners strike of 84/85 and to this day will never forget nor forgive the thuggish tactics employed by International Capital and their lapdogs the Tory government/police/army/media.

Found this link to add to the theme.   The battle of Orgreave


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## William of Walworth (May 29, 2002)

Lotsa memories of this too ... no time. More another time.


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## rorymac (May 29, 2002)

I was involved with benefits for the miners at the time and the stories that they'd tell about intimidation/violence by the police etc was sickening.
Thatcher and every bastard in her government involved with the treatment the miners received want fucking torturing.
The same goes for the lying fuckers in the media. 
Tory cunts.


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## Zapher (May 29, 2002)

Most of the country cheered when the National Union of Mineworkers was broken, because many big unions were breaking the general economy, which affected the other working people of this country. The UK was known as "the sick man of Europe". I remember. I was here, working.

After Thatch had broken the power of a few more big unions, we became the leading economy in Europe. Thatch didn't stay PM for so long without being popular with the people (not the people on this board, of course). 

But then, when has this board ever reflected the majority view? The democratic, ballot-box view? The view that elects politicians, not union leaders, to run the country?

In fact, this board doesn't even reflect the minority view. The Monster Raving Lunatic Party -- even the Natural Law party -- could collect more votes than the far-lefts and anarchists here.

Keep your ideas. Even put 'em into action and form your own "communities". But don't think a revolution can succeed. For that, you need a working majority. Or a minority who can out-gun and out-force the majority. Luckily, your pacifist principles prevent that.


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## vimto (May 29, 2002)

'Most of the country cheered when the National Union of Mineworkers was broken, because many big unions were breaking the general economy, which affected the other working people of this country. The UK was known as "the sick man of Europe". I remember. I was here, working.'

Which country? Scotland? Don't think so buddy.

You were there working? Lucky for you, meantime the rest of us were fighting for the RIGHT to work.


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## bruise (May 29, 2002)

*my my...*

who's a little touchy then?

and twisted and bitter to boot.

<long post alert, sorry>

Bezzer, you couldn't have a better introduction to how polarised people became over the strike, lol.

Those of us on the left - including honourable contributions from 'physical force' and other anarchists, plus the whole of the socialist Left (perhaps with the exception of the RCP), and many liberals as well - we all knew that if the Thatcher gov.t managed to defeat the miners, they would have defeated the labour movement, set it back for a decade, destroyed the possibility of popular resistance, and opened the floodgates (already propped open) of neo-liberalism, with consequences we have been living with since, and which seem to me to be getting progressively worse - think of the decimation of social services, the complete failure of UK plc to even house its people... you know the story.

The tory gov.t consciously prepared (stock-piles of coal etc), and militarised the police in advance, and used the miners to test out stuff they now use routinely...

Scargill was a hero to the Left, and a demon to the right, and, of course, the truth, as always, is somewhere in the middle - but at least, for a tu leader, he stuck by the struggle and his union members regardless of the way they attempted to demonise him.

It was the first big dispute in the mining industry where women largely took over running it, and doing most of the speaking, rather than being side-lined and isolated at home. We made sure we got miner's speakers to the most unlikely events. The best was the Tube, the RedSkins had got on (amazingly) and invited a miner to speak... but the studio never turned his mic on (claimed afterwards they would have done if they'd had notice, but we doubted they would have). 

Nottingham was a tragedy. My mum's area was twinned with the minority (20%) of the county who were out, and who were having a terrible time, with none of the solidarity experienced elsewhere. I have to say (due respect mum from me and foo) she collected, and drove 100s of miles, and cajoled, and organised, and helped house people (flying pickets and speakers). 

Paul Weller did an about turn. You probably know about it, but check out the cab driver killed with a concrete slab tragedy. (About time somebody re-mixed the tune, mind you)

The Met were hated the most by miners around the country - they were deliberately nasty, verging on pychotic, whereas other forces weren't always so bad, there was the odd game of football between the two sides, whatever. The Met are still hated today in ex-mining communities... 

The dockers and the coal workers of the world organised aid deliveries, and embargos.... truly impressive. I think there was a global sense that this was a turning point.

I remember taking stuff and christmas presents for the kids down to Kent coalfields. One of us was a chilean student, turned out he'd missed a 40 strong chillean delegation by a day.

People like Zapher also manned the scab buses during the General Strike...! There's a lot of sad individuals with bitterness about unions, or about some discomfort that happened to them, or just suffering from a sense of guilt over watching while the rest of us get shafted. And, clearly he (def.) hasn't learned, and is quite happy to watch the world turn into poluted nightmare of McJobs, long hours, no pension, no funding for students, no spending on housing, health, social services...

Someone, once, probably didn't pick up his bin. You know how it is. But there were a lot bleating then - not least the media, who played an appalling role. The nadir has got to be the BBC re-editing the order of the events at Orgreave. An editer admitted as much later, Glasgow Media Group investigated it and exposed it. So instead of an unprovoked attack by mounted police on the very area of a large field where Scargil was very visible, which attracted a pelting from whatever to hand. Instead viewers were treated to stone throwing yobs, a shouting and angry Scargil, straining police lines (from another time of day entirely) then the reluctant use of police horses. 

I don't think the BBC have apologised or owned up to that one to this day.

Oh. And to pick up a point Zapher made about votes. It happened to follow elections (79 and 81) where the SDP split Labour's vote. Thatcher never increased the Tory's share of the popular vote from Sunny Jim: Marxism Today helped give media legitimacy to the idea that Thatcher had a huge mandate, and had captured a new mood. Was it bollox. They chose not to look at the figures in front of them. Still they convinced Zapher, and that's the point, really, isn't it.

Thanks for pushing that button Bezzer. And I'd have to thank Zapher as well - for showing that recent history does matter, and the stuff that happened then, you notice, still affects my outlook, and it still affects Zapher's. Labour history matters... but in spite of that, sorry for going on. (Curses... revealed my age!)


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## Kaka Tim (May 29, 2002)

The miners strike was a critical defeat for organised labour in this country - I think that is more apparent now then it was then.

The mining industry was destroyed and the trade unions withered to an pretty ineffective lobby group for workers rights - rather than a force to be reckoned with.
Since the strike, industrial action has become an increasingly rare event and the old culture of militancy and solidarity has almost disaperared. 
The result has been longer hours, causlisation and p
rivatisation which has served no-one but the ruling class. 

What are the chances of workers getting organised and active on a large scale again?

(looks around but sees no signs...)


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## Zapher (May 29, 2002)

Anyone using AOL will know that, about 2 months ago, a poll asked 'the best PM since Churchill'. Thatch got about 65%.

POPULAR popularity, not just a small clique as represented by this board.


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## DOA (May 29, 2002)

the miners strike was a watershed, it all sarted there. thatcher took a political decison to take on the unions and smash them, no expense spared. the miners weren't just fighting for themselves, but for the future direction of this country. they lost and so did we. 

we might see some redress one day, when we get a labour government


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## vimto (May 29, 2002)

I think we've won. Look at us all nattering away about it. It's feckin great.


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## anarchistnurse (May 29, 2002)

Lived in mining town in the NE during the strike with my grandfather who was a retired miner.  Young at the time ( 11 or 12 ish ) but have a few memories.  The response of the local coppers was interesting.  They were not used to police the picket lines as obviously the community knew where they lived and they could not have got away with the behaviour of bussed in outside coppers.  They also kept a very low profile throughout the town during the time.  A house down our street was burgled one night and the police phoned.  They refused to attend during the hours of darkness and would only turn up mobhanded during daylight hours to interview the householder.  I was told this was policy on certain council estates housing predominately miners.  The use of the army to police picket lines was also believed to be widespread.  It may be an urban rumour / piece of folklaw of the time but a much widespread story was of the miner recognizing his own son who had joined the army standing on the otherside of the picket line!


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## rorymac (May 29, 2002)

Bruise,
Fucking ace and spot on post.
Brings it all back even stronger how despicable it was and you're dead right about how what happened then is reflected so horribly in today's shitty society.


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## ernestolynch (May 29, 2002)

Quality thread this - can BRUISE or anyone recommend a decent book about the strike? Obviously a sympathetic one - maybe by the end of the night so's I can get it for the hols.


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## ponyboy (May 29, 2002)

"The Downing Street Years" has a rather unique take on it...


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## anarchistnurse (May 30, 2002)

Another memory of the strike.  I was told that the Met used to turn up and sellotape fifty pound notes to the inside ( obviously ) of their riot shields.  A very provocative thing to do to a father on strike for six months with no benifits.  Looking back the only thing I find amazing is how restrained the miners were.  Some cockney cunt on overtime trying to rub their faces in it deserved a petrol bomb on his face.  Shame it never happened.


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## butchersapron (May 30, 2002)

Not sure what sort of book you're after ernesto - if you want straight up details of the strike you know were to go. However i would recommend anything you can get your hands on from Canary Press; 'Across Frontiers' is a really moving book that describes the international solidarity that the miners had. Strike breaking in Essex (also Canary) by Moira abdel-rahim is def worth a look - and ' A year of our lives' - collectiely written by the Hatfield main community is an *extremely* moving account of how a normal working class town reacted to the attacks - the kids stuff is esp, spot on(Hooligan press).


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## Revolting (May 30, 2002)

anarchistnurse, I didn't hear about them taping money to their riot shields (£50 was a lot then, esp for a copper !!), but the London policemen were certainly reputed for taunting the pickets by waving their overtime slips at them.

I also remember the Sunday Times running articles to demonise the miners, saying the flying pickets were antediluvian thugs, with a working class culture based on their fists and the size of their Doc Martens.

Talking of the betrayal by the Notts miners Bruise, I'm surprised nobody's mentioned the far more crucial role of the power workers yet. Their refusal to come out in support of the miners, was possibly decisive in saving Thatcher's skin.

As for the miners strike being the decisive labour battle of the last 20 years, well Wapping wasn't quite as big, but it was those twin defeats which really sealed the unions' fate.


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## Zapher (May 30, 2002)

Oh yeah, Wapping. The compositors were being done out of a job because reporters' keystrokes could become typesetting. All of a sudden, things became more efficient.

Tell you what. Let's all go back to horse and cart, then everyone will have a job.


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## Bajie (May 30, 2002)

> Anyone using AOL will know that, about 2 months ago, a poll asked 'the best PM since Churchill'. Thatch got about 65%.
> 
> POPULAR popularity, not just a small clique as represented by this board.



Poll on AOL? you need to brush up on your demographics mate. AOL is marketed towards and mainly used by those in the 'middle-class'.


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## anti-capitalist (May 30, 2002)

The way our miners' have been treated by successive governments is atrocious. Labour, of all people, need to get their act together and pay the compensation to all the miners' literally dying from their jobs. Unfortunately most will not be alive to see their compensation paid.

http://www.minersadvice.co.uk/

There's some good pix of the miners' strike in the photo's section of this Yahoo group:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/socialistcomrade/

A good example of a successful modern day mining co-operative:

http://www.baynet.co.uk/colliery/


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## Revolting (May 30, 2002)

Zapher, Wapping was about broken agreements, sharp practice, and shafting unions that had tried to be cooperative (more fool them). Can't remember the details, but I read an excellent article recently which brought it all back - and now I've forgotten again ...

*>> All of a sudden, things became more efficient*
I'm genuinely pleased to hear that News International is back on track. Can we now look forward to them paying any taxes this year ?  

Getting off topic though


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## pcanning (May 30, 2002)

I have very vivid memories of the strike. was involved in the group lesbians + gays support the miners. it was started by leftie gays in london and we drew in lots of all sorts of people. we'd shake collection tins in the line to get into the Heaven nighclub, the doorbitch made everyone donate before they got in (wonder if mr branson knew?), bronski beat did a big concert - we raised over £30k if I recall correctly) and we twinned with the Dulais valley in sth wales. that was the best bit. going there en masse to donate the van with the big pink triangle on the side! the locals were very kind but obviously a bit bemused. later we learnt that some locals had objected but had been shut up. after the strike the miners came on the gay pride march with the lodge banner - another highlight. and I recall a number of them and miner's wives later coming out.

because of the group the labour party conference the next year passed the first comprehensive pro-gay resolution. this was because the unions came across en masse, and it was the support of the miners which did the trick. it was a seachange from the previous macho negativity about gays. I think this was extremely significant in getting the labour movement on side for gays. chris smith et al made quicker progress because of us.


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## The Black Hand (May 30, 2002)

There are a lot of very good books on the miners strike, i'd even recommend one by the WRP if you can ignore the blatent use of a death to recruit to the party "The Story of David Gareth Jones" who was killed on a picket line in the early days of the strike. Of course anything by Dave Douglass is great - you can find them on www.minersadvice.co.uk

Here's some examples...

Introduction to ALL POWER TO THE IMAGINATION by Dave Douglass
 "To the spirit of the rebel snowman

The Miners of Silverwood, having been told they were confined to six pickets only, built themselves a seventh comrade in the shape of a large snowman,wearing for good  measure a plastic policeman's helmet.

Next morning, Chief Inspector Nesbitt appears on the scene and seeing the jeering miners and their steely eyed companion,  ordered the constables to knock it down . This order brought rebellion to the police ranks as PCs declined to, "look so
fucking stupid knocking down a snowman". "Very well," shouts the irate Nesbitt, jumping in his Range Rover and charging off to demolish the snowman, as pickets ran laughing for cover. 
 Maybe it was a trick of the light, or maybe a twinkle glistened in the icy countenance on the snowman's fixed expression - we shall never know, as the Range Rover made contact and came to a dead stop, smashing front grill, bumper and headlamps and hurling the shocked Nesbitt into the steering
 wheel. PCs found excuses to walk away or supress body shaking laughter while pickets fell about on the ground with side splitting mirth. The snowman had been constructed around a three foot high two foot thick concrete post!"

Dave Douglass - All power to the imagination! Published by The Class War Federation 1999 £5.00 + p&p www.classwaruk.org 

 "Pit sense versus the State : (A history of the militant miners of the Doncaster area)"
David Douglass
  Pheonix Press P.O. Box 824
 London N1 9DL
ISBN 094 89 84 260

"A Year of Our Lives: (Hatfield Main, a colliery community in the great coal strike of 1984 - 85)"
On Saturday 10th march 1984, Hatfield NUM called an emergencybranch meeting. Cars with loudspeakers on top had toured the villages calling everyone to the Welfare Hall in Stainforth.
   "Everyone knew this day would come"
Published by Hooligan Press 
 Compiled and narrated by David Douglass
  ISBN 1 86 98 02 02 2

Also "The State of the Police" by Phil Scraton, Pluto Press, 1985, about the policing of the strike, and "The Battle for Orgreave" (by Bernard jackson and Tony Wardle, isbn 0 9509967 6 9) about the fitting up of miners who got not guilty later...

and "The Enemy Within: Pit villages and the miners strike of 1984-85" edited by R. Samuel contains a lot of excellent material and a truly great speech by Dave Douglas at the start of the miners strike... ranks alongside the other 'great speeches' of history...


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## wurlycurly (May 30, 2002)

I have very strong memories of the strike. Was living in a tiny predominantly National Trust-owned Scottish village called Culross which housed the only working miner in Scotland at the time. The place was so small that a snowball hitting a window was front-page news, but every morning 500 or so tooled-up policemen would face a few hundred miners as the Scab was bussed into work. I'm from a mining family and my grandfather died in the pits, but even without my rose-tinted specs on I can honestly say that the level of support which the miners received from almost all working-class Scots was heartbreaking - thinking about it still fucks my head up to this day. The strike is still having an affect on some ex-miners even now, with issues such as reinstated pensions for (incorrectly) dismissed workers and compensation claims still to be settled. Coincidentally, this week also saw a high-profile apology from The Guardian's Roy 'right-on' Greenslade, who was editor of The Mirror when it swallowed MI5's preposterous 'Scargill stole from strike funds to pay off his mortgage' missinformation. History shows us that Scargill (love him or loathe him, I tend to prefer the former, but I know he's made mistakes) was taken out the game by repeated and vitriolic accusations of dishonesty in the popular press, yet to this day has still to be found guilty of a traffic offence. Fact is that MI5 and Thatcher had ideological reasons for opposing the miners, but No 1 Scab Greenslade just swallowed the propoganda because it suited his career aspirations at the time. Not sure if I've got the hang of this smilie thing, but if one saying 'fuck you you wanker' appears it's for Roy. Tosser. PS: Finding people still discussing this 15 years on is amazing. Perhaps that's why U75 rools.


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## Spud Murphy III (May 30, 2002)

Some very good references, Black Hand. Thanks too to wurlycurly for your post.

I was part of a support group in Glasgow that raised about £20,000 for the miners during the strike. Some people in the group (though not me) also stormed and occupied the Glasgow offices of the firm Price Waterhouse, who were sequestrating NUM funds. The action was described by the local newspaper as being conducted with 'military precision'. Aid to this action was given by some shipyard workers, who made enormous steel plates to stick over the office doors to prevent eviction. The plates were fixed on with expanding bolts.

We used to go down to the Ayrshire mining villages to hand the money over to the miners. They were very hospitable. Several times I went on pickets outside the collieries.

Getting to them was quite exciting, as it involved piling into vans in Glasgow at about 4 or 5am, and hurtling through minor country roads in Ayrshire to avoid being stopped by the police. The pickets were generally good-humoured in Ayrshire, and were policed by local coppers. At one point I was squeezed forwards out of the picket line by the pressure behind me, like a cork out of a bottle. I fell on my arse in the mud, and a big policeman pulled me to my feet with a grin. I was pretty embarrassed!

Some men chose to cross the picket line. There was some anger but also a lot more sadness at this. Only a few people yelled 'scab'. I certainly never did, because I believed then and still believe that only the workers themselves in the dispute have the right to use that term.

Zapher: I don't mind your opinions at all (though I disagree with them) but I am surprised at the tone you deliver them with. Today you are sounding a bit like Otto, the Jeff Dahmer of the Internet. You always struck me as a laid-back kind of person, so this seems out of character.

You have to remember what mass unemployment meant for lots of people in Britain during the 1980s. It devastated communities and brought real poverty to lots of people. Can you imagine what that actually meant? 

It meant people having their electricity disconnected in the winter because they cannot afford the bills. Just to earn a few pounds extra, people have to turn to minor scams - a bit of window cleaning, or scrabbling for scrap metal to sell. But at the same time, the government urges snitches and grasses to inform on such people if they are also receiving so-called 'benefits' - miserable pittances on which it is almost impossible to live. 

I do not know how to put into words the total atmosphere of listlessness and hopelessness that results from this. One scene where I lived in Glasgow stricks in my mind. There was a roundabout with some shops by it: a fish-and-chip shop and a newsagent. Most of the units were empty, with graffitti'ed metal shutters permanently pulled down. A group of teenagers would sit on a wall by the chip shop in the morning. In the afternoon they would cross the road and sit on another wall. That was all they did every day. They had no money, no work, but more importantly they saw no point in doing anything.

Maybe this just strikes you as violin-and-handkerchief stuff, my memory playing tricks on me, distorting the past to fit my present beliefs. The health statistics might provide a more objective measure: the well-documented increases in mental illness, in suicides, and in heart attacks among people who have been thrown on the scrapheap.

Talking about scrapheaps, one man I knew back then would hunt for thick copper cabling to sell - the kind that gets used in the construction industry. It is plastic insulated, and the scrap dealer won't accept it with insulation, so it has to be burnt off with petrol. This means starting a fire on a bit of wasteground, leaving it to burn, and coming back a few hours later. The charred remains of the plastic have to be scraped off with a wire brush - it is filthy work. The dirty coil of burnt wire has then to be lugged to the scrap yard - on average about four miles or so perhaps. That coil will be heavy. All the while an eye has to kept out for the police, who will arrest you if they have even an inkling of what you've been up to. And all this for about £20 a go.

I have no regrets in showing solidarity with the miners during their dispute. I only wish I had had the decency and courage to have done more, a lot more. Nonetheless, seeing working people stand up and fight for a decent life - standing together in SOLIDARITY - that is an experience I will never ever forget, and it certainly changed a lot of my values. In fact it made a lot of my values (not that I live up to them most of the time).

Zapher, I hope that one day you will have the opportunity to see similar things for yourself. How you interpret such experiences, well that is up to you. But the main thing is that you see them.


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## Maidmarian (May 30, 2002)

Absolutely right Spud !!

I come from a mining village in County Durham-- (Dad, uncles, Grandads all miners).

The Durham coalfield was decimated in the 70`s ------
Some whole villages were razed to the ground (Anyone else remember "D-Notice" villages)?

I was living in Nottingham at the time of the strike------

(People at home still spit on the ground when I tell them where I`m living now)

But there WERE striking miners in Notts.

One of them --- a really good friend of mine --- died recently.
I am touched & gratified that so many remember what it was all about !


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## butchersapron (May 30, 2002)

It's very hard to forget Maidmarian - either the inspiring elements or the tragic elements...


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## blamblam (May 30, 2002)

Don't expect any sympathy from Zapher - he's a fucking boss + business owner. He doesn't give a shit about how much misery, suffering, environmental destruction and death is caused, he just wants to make shitloads of money. (Incidentally, if you try to inform him of problems caused by capitalism, he'll probably tell you to take fewer drugs, and then if you back up your claims with evidence, he'll never reply to the thread again...)

Oh and Zapher AOL is only used by people who are thick + rich enough to pay for it, so don't take their opinions as that of the majority. I would also advise you not to take the opinions of your other rich-capitalist-shit-for-brains friends as the opinions of the masses. (I am aware that my anarchist views are in a very small minority - you should be aware that your staunch pro-capitalist views are also. The only difference between us is that if people don't agree with me, then I've got nothing to lose... [I wish there were an evil-looking smiley to go here, who kinda looks like s/he's shouting "Bwah-hah-hah-haaaaaah" maniacally.])

Respect to all those of you who were involved (that occupation of PWC sounds excellent! Did you have to do time for Crim Dam?) - I was a wee bit too young at the time.


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## pinkmonkey (May 30, 2002)

*I'm from a mining town*

What do I remember?

Nearly every shop on my high street closing down.

Our local supermarket removing all the shelves and stocking nothing but beans, bread, milk and sugar sold from palletts on the floor.

Kids at school begging you to buy them crisps and hungrily eating them. Kids stealing your packed lunch. A woman in the next town starving to death to feed her kids

Walking to school past the houses of 'scabs' which had every window smashed and paint and excrement daubed everywhere.
The kids of 'scabs' being violently beaten up.

My school (pupils not teachers) going on strike one afternoon in support of the miners -we kept it hush hush for days and at two O'Clock one afternoon we just got up and all walked out and stood outside the gates.  The telly crews turned up and all.

My school headmaster going ballistic in assembly the next day as a result, saying how we had shamed him (Tory twat -my dad was right - he was an idiot).

Scargill marching down our high street with our local majorettes as acompaniment.

My grandad dying in a lung cancer ward full of other miners, they were not properly protected against the coal dust in the old days.

It was a fucking awful time and our town took years to recover.

I was one of the lucky ones as my dad was on the dole at the time (having been made redundant as a result of the above.)

I'm sorry I can't remember anymore.....


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## danny la rouge (May 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by wurlycurly _
> *I have very strong memories of the strike. Was living in a tiny predominantly National Trust-owned Scottish village called Culross which housed the only working miner in Scotland at the time*


This is an unbelievably small world!  You have therefore seen me, wurlycurly, as I was there on several occasions!


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## Zapher (May 30, 2002)

Spud, thanks for your comments re. mine. I know about unemployment; I was unemployed for nearly 3 years. (I was also homeless for a while.) I also remember the miners' strike; I'm 44.

I acknowledge the suffering you mention, and accept your points on that exactly. But if the strike hadn't been broken -- and other unions broken around the same time -- there would have been MUCH GREATER suffering.

Union militancy had almost destroyed the economy. It caused the 3-day week. Bodies lay unburied. Rubbish piled up in the streets -- all this through strikes -- and rats ran amok. Red Robbo up at Longbridge virtually destroyed our car industry. I could go ON, but you get the picture. Had all this been allowed to continue, the economy would have become TOTALLY fucked, more and more businesses would have gone broke, and we would have had MASSIVE unemployment.

Then there wouldn't have even been scrap dealers in business to pay people the odd £20 on the side.

Suffering? You saw nothing in comparison to what it COULD have been if solidarity from the neck up was allowed its head.

Icepick: yes, I built a business from NOTHING, and now employ 7 people. I pay the best wages in my industry, AND my people are on profit-share. That's because I've been through the shit myself, and I'd never rip anyone off.


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## pinkmonkey (May 30, 2002)

Zapher has a point.....some of the stuff i saw go on was totally out of order.  

Yeah, there was solidarity, but what happened to some of the scabs was sick, they only went back to work for their kids ffs.  The woman who starved was held up as a martyr. It was tragic.

Some of what went on was identical to that Sara payne paedophile witchhunt that happened the other summer.  Mindless.  Everyone was suffering.

It really went too far.  I distinctly remember my family debating what was going on re. the strike most evenings.

My dad has been a member of Nalgo all his life, but although totally anti Thatcher, he did not have much good to say about the Scargillites.

I think that some of what went on has been glamorised a bit. Believe me. It was a total nightmare.  It makes me upset when people use it to publicise their political causes.

I was 14 at the time, so excuse me if I'm a bit fuzzy about the details, it was just the way that me & my family saw it...


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## jiggajagga (May 30, 2002)

Zapher. Re the AOL poll of best PMs...er AOL is AMERICA on line (i.e an American company where most users are over there). Of course they'll love her. The USA is where maggie the anti-christ learned her right - wing trade. She loved the American model of society (You know, privatisation, fuck the weak etc etc). I suggest that if the same poll was broken down into countries the vote would NOT be 65% or anywhere near!
Yet again someone is spoofed by the press.
 May I suggest 'Hidden Agendas' by John Pilger ISBN0099741512. Chapter VIII - The Media age. It might interest you and it may open your eyes and your mind a little.


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## bluepaul (May 30, 2002)

Zapher, I've seen other poles that show a similar result. As I have mentioned before I think Mrs T was the bees Knees, only wish I had been able to vote for her. She did orright for me and my family and all my friends, but I didn't grow up in a mining town.

So what should have happened (*serious Question)? Should the great British Tax paying public subsidised the mining industry. An organisation dealing in an environmentally unclean commodity that no one wanted to buy. And if so should we (the taxpayers) of subsidised all the steel workers, car workers, ship builders as well?

BP


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## Maidmarian (May 30, 2002)

Zapher ----

I disagree VERY strongly with your anti-TU remarks !!

It wasn`t the TU movement which caused the economic "downturn" -- but rather YEARS of under-investment in industry --- due to the greed & un-patriotism (investing abroad for bigger dividends) of shareholders !!!


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## Maidmarian (May 30, 2002)

Also --------
as to "Subsidising the mining industry ---" 

I saw Scargill make a wonderful speech in which he demonstrated that , had the govt been GIVING away sacks of coal with a £20 pound note attatched ---It would STILL have been cheaper to the tax-payers than "clean" (sic) nuclear power !!


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## TopCat (May 30, 2002)

I remember the miners strike alright. 

I try not to most of the time as the feelings the memories bring up are a bit too pasionate for easy living.

In fact this is all too painful. 

Maybe more another time.


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## The Black Hand (May 30, 2002)

I can remember going to a girls school across town to do an economics a-level and was the ONLY one in a class of 7 arguing for the miners... i don't see those girls any more, nor do i care what their politics are. As for Zapher, it wasn't the 'unions' who 'fucked the economy' along the lines you describe... It was systematic low levels of investment, and changing economic conditions which led to the workers struggles. The original sin belongs with capitalists as Mr Marx showed...
btw i don't know what you call massive unemployment but over 3 million as Thatcher the bastard created is massive to me. 

Blue paul - actually coal use was GOING UP around the world until at least 1995. As for subsidising the mining industry, we subsidise the farmers all the fucking time, bail them out with foot and mouth payments and no fucker like you says a word... but then i forget, it's down to CLASS isn't it...


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## bluepaul (May 30, 2002)

Black hand - Not in this country, we hardly produce any coal now, and import very little either. Until the mid 80’s the main purpose for coal was in the production of electricity, this was then replaced by using natural gas, which is a far greener and more efficient form of energy. 

I take your point on the farmers, should we really subsidise any industries and if so what?


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## William of Walworth (May 30, 2002)

*History*

Major respect to this thread. Our group didn't raise much money, only about £350= 

Respect to Maid Marian, Black Hand, Bruise, wurlycurly, Pink Monkey,  and above all SPUD MURPHY.

This thread is recent history and was very affecting to read ... so many memories, and like TC it's hard to talk too much about it ...

Zapher it was the attitudes of people like you ... sneering superiority and sarcastic "lets all go back to horse and cart" type comments whenever LOST JOBS AND LIVELIHOODS are discussed, and assumptionism that Trade Unions are wicked and evil, that my grandfathers, and later TUnionists like the miners,  fought against all their lives.

I agree with Kaka Tim too, it was a turning point, there is unlikely to be any such widespreadly supported TU action in the near future ...

I am critical of parts of Scargill's strategy but not of his analysis. His predictions of the early 1980s have been proved correct time after time.


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## TopCat (May 30, 2002)

All I will add is that many lessons were learned.

Should we get a "re run" type of event then I am sure we will have a chance to show how much better opposition can be done.


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## William of Walworth (May 30, 2002)

Only one memory from me because I was in London pretty much all the time : on the day the strike finished, myself and my then girlfriend were sitting on the top deck of a 253 bus through Hackney, on our way home after a pretty depresed night out.

The conductor like ourselves was wearing those yellow support the miners stickers and TGWU badges etc. ... he said I'm not taking any money off of any NUM supporters today.

Respect. That stuck in my memory, along with much else.


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## Revolting (May 30, 2002)

Zapher, leaving aside your politics, your conclusions about economic performance are just plain wrong.
Thatcherites go on and on about how she sorted out the country and made industry lean and mean, etc. The shrill rhetoric to this effect was in inverse proportion to the reality, and it seems to have successfully pulled the wool over many people's eyes.
She did nothing of the sort, and her motivation for breaking the unions was purely based on class war, not on economic "rejuvenation". Britain's economy became "leaner", only in the sense of becoming smaller.

It's ironic to go on about Red Robbo (whoever he was, I'm only 34) destroying the car industry, because it was the Tories who actually killed it off. Britain was perfectly well able to sustain a car industry throughout the so-called bad old days of the 70s.

Then, while trumpeting the "inevitability” of the decline of heavy industry, Thatcher raved on about her favoured sunrise industries, so let's look at the results there.
In the 70s, Britain had ICL and Inmos, but by the end of the 80s, the native computer industry no longer existed either. In the 70s and early 80s, Britain was also a major innovator in software, but now we just buy American packages.
University research was also snuffed out, during the 80s.

In the bad old 70s, Britain was one of Europe's richest countries, and its GDP was on a par with France. By the end of the 80s, Italy’s GDP had overtaken it. Yes, chaotic  strike-ridden, unstable, sclerotic Italy, which is supposed to be epitomise everything that's wrong with the Euro model.
The only reason Britain’s GDP has leapfrogged Italy and France in the past few years, is that because their GDP is now denominated in Euros, it has suffered a relative devaluation of 20%. That is an external factor to economic policies, and is not a permanent state of affairs.

Britain curently has higher employment than France/Germany, only because our McJobs are worth less, both in their renumeration, and their economic value. I came across a recent report showing that productivity per person _per hour_ is higher in most European countries than the UK (and in turn, the UK is higher than the US, precisely because we are not yet fully Americanised).

If I was a cynic, God forbid, I would say that Thatcher destroyed the sort of jobs which provided a basis for large scale unionisation of organised labour. Deriding them as obsolete was just a smokescreen.
The fear that the strikes of the 70s struck into British bosses was not the fear of economic decline, but the fear of change in the balance of power, between the classes.

All these real, high-value jobs were replaced by froth and the service sector, and distribution of imported goods. These just shuffle money around within the economy (or to be more precise, from the poor to the rich). They don't earn money for the country, and the employees are left too fragmented and vulnerable to trouble their masters.


Bluepaul, The Tories (and now this Labservative government as well) are willing to subsidise just about anything apart from industry, especially their pet PFI consortia, backed by American banks. Funding British industry is normally called *investment*, not “subsidisation”.

I’ve gone considerably off topic again, but by way of redemption, a last word about coal. We didn't stop needing coal, but we just began importing it instead.


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## bruise (May 30, 2002)

Respect to all - and, to pick up what Pcanning said - it was the first time that 'gay rights' and heavy industrial unions got it on. It was fantastic to see, and demonstated in practice that whole point that any division (sexism, racism, homophobia) weakens us all.

Zapher - I'm glad you've got some morals and ethics when applied to the micro level. That said, wouldn't it be great if the people you 'employ' got decent renumeration by right, rather than just because they happen to have a slightly nicer boss than the one down the road.

On the other hand, you are relying on completely discredited sources of information on the macro level, as others have pointed out.

TopCat - I wish I shared your optimism about the present level of preparedness. I'm not convinced that we have learned from those defeats (and yes, I'd include steel and wapping as also epoch-making events).

pinkmonkey is right that it would be wrong to glamorise or wallow in nostalgia. I'm not sure I bleed too much for scabs, but there were some horrible things that happened, and, while there was a great sense of community, it was largely because there was huge stress which demanded that mining communities and their supporters rose to the challenge or they would be destroyed, and they knew it.

BTW, does anyone remember the 'Union of Democratic (sic) Mineworkers' now? Also - as well as the power workers - the pit deputies not joining the strike was fairly decisive as well.


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## TopCat (May 30, 2002)

There is a well respected school of thought that says that NACODS vote was riggeed!


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## marty21 (May 30, 2002)

I was at uni in Swansea during the strike, the union did send coaches to support the picketing miners, most students also gave money to the regular collections in the city centre.

agree with those who have said that Scargill made mistakes in the strategy of the the strike...but he was also brought down by outrageous abuse of power by thatcher, m15 should not have been involved, it wasn't a threat to national security, and scargill has been proved right, the tories set out to destroy a national industry and succeeded...

I was in swansea during the recent petrol blockade and was speaking to a  shop keeper there, she told me that the road hauliers and farmers didn't get a lot of support in South Wales because of the way they shafted the miners in 84/5. Even nearly 20 years later, the way hauliers and farmers acted during the strike has repercussions...


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## William of Walworth (May 30, 2002)

*Bloody fuel protesters ...*

Right on, Marty!!!


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## A. Spies (May 30, 2002)

Um,
This threads great.
But stereotyping AOL as used by thick + rich bods is dumb.
We use AOL and this may come as a surprise but we use it cos it’s fuckin cheap.
It’s like a quid more than BT or something and you get over double the time.
We’re not thick but we aren’t computer genious’s either, AOL is quick n’ cheap, I realise it’s a corporation etc, but sometimes only the *Middleclass*  (J/K  ) have the power to choose.


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## Zapher (May 30, 2002)

Maidmarion, re "years of under-investment". Yes ... why the hell would anyone have invested in industry with union wreckers in charge? May as well throw your investment down the nearest drain.

Revolting: I think your analysis is interesting but wrong, perhaps because I actually lived through it and you say you were 10 years younger. However, the Thatcher philosophy couldn't have been far wrong, because Blair copied it to get elected, ditching the un-electable Old Labour which you (and much of this board) seem to favour.


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## William of Walworth (May 30, 2002)

When TF, ever,  were unions "in charge" of industry?

Is that what the Daily Telegraph told you??


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## Roadkill (May 30, 2002)

Much respect to a lot of people who've posted on this thread, especially (though certainly not only) pinkmonkey, Spud and Revolting.  This is one of the best threads I've seen in ages - I just wish I'd read it earlier.     I haven't much to add, sadly.  I'm too young to remember the Miners' Strike in detail, and most of what I might have said has been very ably said elsewhere on the thread.

But there is just one thing.  Zapher:



> Red Robbo up at Longbridge virtually destroyed our car industry.



And I suppose Red Robbo had responsibility for investing in new factories, distributing the finished product, and designing the cars in the first place?  

Look, management was as much at fault for the disaster of BL as any other factor.  Even if it had been put together in the most state-of-the-art factory, with decent labour relations, that wouldn't have made the Austin Allegro a bestseller.  It was a shit car, period.  The fact that it was badly designed (even the original designer, Harris Mann, was furious when he saw what his creation had been turned into by the time it had got through various design committees and managenment rationalisation exercises), badly marketed and launched to replace a very popular car indeed (the 1100/1300 range) was hardly the fault of Red Robbo and his mob, was it?

The All-aggro was hardly an isolated case either; every car that BL was making at the time, the Princess/Ambassador and Maxi especially, was crap.  The only exception was the Mini, and then the Metro, which was designed and introduced _before_ Mrs Thatcher's union-busting drive but after there'd been a measure of reorganisation, especially among desing and management.  Coincidence?  Probably not.

Of course Britain was up shit creek in the 1970s, but fool be you if you swallow the Tory propaganda and blame it all on trade unionism.


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## William of Walworth (May 30, 2002)

*It's Tory propaganda, Zapher!*

Thanks, RoadOscar. My point exactly.


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## exosculate (May 30, 2002)

I was at school during the miners strike (secondary school- so I am old enough to remember it). Just something I wanted to add.

I had a Physics teacher who thought the miners strike was great....... you can always rely on lefty/liberal teachers I hear you say.

But NO......

She was very right wing. She liked the strike because her husband was a Met police officer (on secondment) to the strikes. She explained that he was being paid triple-time wages for nigh on a year. She said that even when off duty because they were on call they were paid continuous overtime rates. They were able to put in 18 hour days frequently a large proportion of which was pait at triple timerates. I cannot remember the exact details now as it was a while ago.

Anyway - needless to say her husband earned an absolute fortune as a result of the strike. Enough she says in one year to virtually pay for the house that they were buying.

My point of course - the police were paid serious amounts of the good old taxpayers money to break the strike. At all costs the strike had to be broken as far as Thatcher was concerned and the price of victory was a secondary concern.

The political nature of the police force was shown in its true nature in the strike, and the class nature of society in general. In my opinion the breaking of the strike quite literally broke the backs of the British unionised working class and it has never recovered.

Thats me done.


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## Zapher (May 30, 2002)

William, you ask when were the unions ever in charge of industry. Answer: when they, not the management, controlled workforces.

Oscar (preferred "Roadkill"; more bite to it!): there's truth in what you say. British Leyland cars were crap. Much of that responsibility did indeed lay with management. However, a bad situation was made MUCH worse by the likes of Red Robbo.


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## Roadkill (May 30, 2002)

Really?  I came to hate "roadkill": it always sounded too nihilistic for my liking!

Labour relations were exceptionally poor at British Leyland.  However, put the scenario into a wider context.  The unions at BL were operating under exactly the same rules as those at other car plants.  Ford and Vauxhall (both foreign-owned, but that makes no difference to the union legislation at their British bases) were heavily affected by strike action in the late 1970s.  Doubtless they had their share of militant shop stewards too.  But they pulled through it.  Why?  Could it possibly be that they were better managed and organised, and because against BL's sorry Allegro, they were producing cars like the Chevette and Escort?


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## rightisgood (May 30, 2002)

*Mr exosculate*

to the best of my knowledge the police have never ever been paid triple time, they only get double time on public holidays.  given the shit they got from the commie cunts they deserved triple time.  
So stop fabricating your left wing crap and go and picket outside Scargills house


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## vimto (May 30, 2002)

Rightisgood.

Are you a communist?


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## Zapher (May 30, 2002)

Oscar, your post above is spot-on. I actually agree with it!!! I'd still say that union militancy didn't HELP Brit Leyland, though. But never mind  

Rightisgood: oh dear. I don't appreciate ANY help I can get


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## rightisgood (May 30, 2002)

*Vimto*

I presume that was a joke, the thought of being even the thought of being slightly to the left makes me puke.  Oh well better go and listen to my 3 editions of billy Bolloxs latest hit single  NOT


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## rorymac (May 30, 2002)

Shut up.
This thread reminds me how fantastic lots of the posters on here are.
Brilliant stuff you lot.


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## exosculate (May 30, 2002)

Just to make clear - my previous statement is accurate able the triple time rates - according to my old teacher anyway - I would love to know if this could be verified.

RightisGood - Please argue your points politely - your rudeness does you no favours. A good right wing argument is fine by me - a rude personalising response is a bit Infantile


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## rightisgood (May 30, 2002)

*Having spent*

13 years in the police trust me there no such thing, as triple time.  And only double time on public holidays.  Maybe you should check your facts out before jumping on the old kill all coppers bandwagon which is what everyone else wants to do


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## exosculate (May 30, 2002)

You still have an angry and rude tone RightisGood. Im sure u made an excellent copper.


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## rightisgood (May 30, 2002)

*you still*

have not given any proof of the police being paid triple time, please show the proof of this or do issue such lies


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## Red Alex (May 31, 2002)

It may come as a surprise to any of you that have read anything I have posted but my dad was (and is) a cop and drove a riot van at the time of 1984/85 strike.  I am ashamed of the things he did to aid Thatcher and needless the say we don't agree on mos things these days but even he admits that the strike was all about breaking the unions.  One thing he told me though was the Thatcher government implemented something known in plice circles as the "edmond davies plan".  This was a plan for massive pay rises accross the board for all cops in the UK that had been drawn up by Callaghan but never implemented.  Thatcher put it into practice as soon as she came to power for one purpose only - to motivate the cops to break the unions.  As soon as the strike and wapping were over police pay went down again.

The truth is that the governments tactics in the mining industry had nothing to do with "profitability" and everything to do with anihilationg TU power (what there was of it) by destroying heavy industry.  All those out there who believed Thatchers rhetoric I ask you to look up what the Ridley plan was.  This was drawn up by Thathcers advisor Nicholas Ridley in order to break the unions.  The plan was to tackle the weak steel unions first before going after the strongest, the NUM.  The industries that could have won the strike for the miners by coming out in solidarity were either bought off or the union leaders were to cowardly to act.


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## Zapher (May 31, 2002)

Red Alex, your above post is 100% correct. Thank dog Thatch had balls. Reasons in my prev posts.


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## Red Alex (May 31, 2002)

Zapher, try selling your argument in south derbryshire and yorkshire where umeployment is a serious problem and the far right is on the rise in places like Ilkeston etc.


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## Zapher (May 31, 2002)

Red Alex, I was brought up in Yorkshire. Rydal Rd, Atlantic Rd. My dad was on a lathe for Sheffield Twist Drill. Later became an inspector. Christ mate, my ancestory lies in Sheffield soil.

As I said on another thread, if I'd been born before the welfare state, I'd have been a firebrand activist of the left. But things get achieved, things move on, and you have to look at the current situation and project it into the future. 

Politics is a slow pendulum. Things move from left to right, right to left, but eventually TOO far in either direction. The trick is to recognise when an extreme zone has been reached, and push the other way.

I know everyone here thinks I'm against the left, but if I'm still around in 12 years, I'll probably be posting against the right. Not because I'VE changed ...


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## Mrs Magpie (May 31, 2002)

*Mrs M is expecting to get shot down in flames for this...but hey! I'm pissed!*

I spent a lot of time, trouble and money supporting the miners for reasons that may not be readily appreciated...............

OK first things first....my grandfather was a special constable during the General Strike in the 20's.....I know I shall regret saying this, but what the hell! IT'S HONEST!

I supported the Miners Strike in the mid 80s, not because of my work colleagues who really bullied me, as a single parent who really REALLY needed the money, and had to choose between crossing a picket line and feeding my children, (my kids won) but because of my grandfather, who was technically a scab. He was an old-fashioned Tory who HATED Thatcher (most old-school Tories did). He really, perhaps in a paternalistic way, really respected working-class men. When he was a special constable in the 1920s in Liverpool, he had huge respect for the Strikers. His job in the General Strike was to stop strikers from crossing the railway lines at Lime Street....he always turned a blind eye 'cos they were going to tend their allotments....All he wanted to do in the General Strike was to drive a train....heigh ho.........He was normally a doctor........pre-NHS remember....he would never charge if the famliy couldn't afford it...he was not from a rich family himself........which was why when he left Whitechapel as a young doctor he ended up in Toxteth.........he remembered Margaret Simey (SP?) as a young fiery woman in the 1930's

I supported the miners and during the strike, we (me and my colleagues) took all the kids from a pit in Yorkshire, and gave them a great holiday, everything taken care of, and gave them an all expenses paid holiday.....The women and kids were great, but their husbands, the striking miners, were some of the most racist, sexist and homophobic men I have ever met in my life.............


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## rhod (May 31, 2002)

If only we'd had the internet & mobile phones in '84........


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## Maidmarian (May 31, 2002)

Mrs M ---- Having been brought up in a mining community myself --- I can testify to the macho culture that abounded there !!!

However -- they were CERTAINLY NOT " The MOST racist, sexist etc that I`ve ever come across (Alas) !

Getting back to the point though,
Does anyone recall the article in "The Economist" called :

          "They saw it coming!"
It was first published in  about `80 (I think) & later re-published by them after the strike was over. It outlined exactly how the government had developed a strategy to smash the NUM, co-ordinate police tactics,handle coal imports etc ---?


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## blamblam (May 31, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Zapher _
> *I know everyone here thinks I'm against the left, but if I'm still around in 12 years, I'll probably be posting against the right. Not because I'VE changed ...  *



You know, I very much doubt that, Zapher.
You say you supported the State against the workers in the 70's and 80's, and now you're a boss. How do you think Hitler + Mussolini got into power? Because there was a mass workers' movement with the aim of seizing the means of production, and the State wasn't quite strong enough to stop them on its own so in step businessmen + capitalists (such as yourself) who back the fascists in order to maintain their positions of power + affluence.

People like you always oppose progressive, pro-democracy movements (suffragettes, anti-apartheid etc.) so I don't see much chance of you changing (unless you lose your business, or perhaps if you realise what sort of world your children or grandchildren are going to grow up in [but that might be a bit too unselfish for you...]).


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## Zapher (May 31, 2002)

Icepick, to post up a conclusion like the one above against me, you either haven't understood where I'm coming from, or I haven't made myself clear. Whichever, no matter. Hopefully most others have understood, even though they may not agree with my stance.

I'm off for a long weekend now, out of London (going to a Steam Rally -- always a brilliant atmosphere). Hope you enjoy your break too.


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## Roadkill (May 31, 2002)

I've just noticed something.

Rightisgood, you claim:



> Having spent 13 years in the police trust me there no such thing, as triple time.



On your profile, you give your birthday as 11 October 1980, making you 21.

Unless you joined the police at age 8, one of these statements isn't true.  So which is it?


btw Zapher, I envy you.  Steam rally sounds a nice way to spend the weekend.


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## Spud Murphy III (May 31, 2002)

Zapher: You go to steam rallies?

There's a guy in Salisbury who's a real steam nut. He's got a steam-powered lorry from the 1920s which he keeps in working order, plus the most beautiful traction engine. Also, he's a nice chap. He's got a website, I'll see if I can find the link to it over the weekend.

I collect fairground bits and pieces, so sometimes go to rallies meself, money permitting. Have fun!


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## Roadkill (May 31, 2002)

At the risk of turning this into a thread about old machinery, I had a ride on a traction engine once and still can't think of many nicer ways to spend a sunny afternoon than lumbering through lovely countryside on one.

Something about the smell of steam engines.  Very evocative, I think.

<anyway, back on topic>


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## duncanh64 (May 31, 2002)

> _Originally posted by bezzer _
> * I’m Just interested really, if anyone on hear, took part in the miners strike, and remembers some of the brutality that was involved or what was going on in the media at the time and ultimately why and how the pitt closures went ahead. *



Only just seen this thread and haven't read all the posts, so I may just be going over ground already covered. But here are a few personal memories of the Strike...

There have been a lot of complicated arguments over whether you should have bveen for/against the miners, but I can boil it down to this: The miners had been given a raw deal by a vicious Tory Goverment, that for reasons of petty spite and revenge [for 72/74] as well as political ideology was prepared to destroy an industry and all the jobs and communities that depended upon it. Whatever disagreements you may have had about how the Strike was run etc, I think they deserved to be supported in taking the fight back to the government. When they lost, it was a blow for everyone who suffered under Thatcher at that time.

The stuff about uneconomic pits was bullshit. It was much more uneconomic to close the industry down, along with all the other ones that directly or indirectly depended on mining [everything from the factory I used to work at which made support structures for the mineshafts to the newsagents across the road from the local pit]. All those workers on the dole rather than earning wages, meaning the tax-payers having to pay them their benefits as well as their reduced spending power depressing the local economy as a whole. 

My dad had been a miner and a left-wing NUM activist, but he'd died in 1980; I'm positive he would have backed the Strike 100%, but I remember that at his old pit, on the Derbys/Notts border, only 17 were out throughout the Strike. It caused a lot of bitterness and division; I had big rows with friends/relatives who opposed the strike.

As for the police, I was living in Derbys and working over the border in Notts at the time and got stopped day in day out at the border by the cops, who always searched us and the car; Once, they found a copy of 'the Miner' which I'd been given by a striking mate and took down the car's number and said that if it was seen anywhere near a picket line, we'd be arrested on the spot.

The Tories were well organized and had planned the whole thing out years in advance [the Ridley Plan]. But a major factor in why the miners lost was the lack of support they got from the rest of the labour movement - be it the unions or the Labour Party, which was already then making the move to the right to appeal to the 'moderate' floating voter and didn't want to be seen to give any support to militancy.

This was reflected to some extent in my local Labour Party branch, which had to be seen to be believed.  One prominent local Labour councillor [he still is btw] was a scab at the nearby depot and the left in the branch somehow managed to get them to pass a resolution debarring him from being present when the strike was discussed; so whenever anything to do with the strike came up on the agenda, everyone would point at him and he had to go and sit in the bar until someone called him back in  .

More seriously, I remember when the Miners' Wives Support Groups were set up, a local member came to the branch to appeal for support and of course some cash for their fighting fund.  She went in expecting, as you would, to get a sympathetic hearing. She looked so shocked when one right-winger after another just laid into her and the strike in general. The secretary of the branch Women's Section yelled at her to 'bugger off and not come back begging again' [this is true, really ]. The poor miners wife was so shaken - she had been talking about joining the Labour Party, but a few months later she joined the WRP instead.

There were times when the miners might have won - like when NACODS, the pit deputies' union voted 82% to come out; but there was always a reluctance by the union & Labour leadership to do anything that would make strike action look legitimate or strengthen the left.

One lasting memory is from a rally in London just after the end of the Strike. Union leader Ken Gill praised the miners and then said he was proud of the 'magnificent support they got from the working class and the labour movement'. A miner behind me shouted 'BOLLOCKS' at the top of his voice.  I think many miners and their families were politicized during the Strike and had their views on such as the state/media/police altered forever, but having stood up for so long, only to be defeated caused a lot of demoralization and bitterness.


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## bezzer (May 31, 2002)

I picked on the particular subject of the miners strike for a myriad of reasons really, essentially my objectives were truthful. To be put Plain and simply, I was too young to remember the strikes apart from a vague consciousness of the time and being able to link later events to it. As I grew up and read and watched TV, occasionally I would come across the subject of the strikes.

Looking into the issue in the last few days and reading your responses to this thread certainly has helped to build up a clearer picture, cheers. 

I don’t really feel qualified to talk about it as an issue but … 

 reading some of the posts, has really been very gut wrenching , I’m over whelmed, and angry and its also been funny… black hand, and his the story about the snowman. Its frustrating as well, because I want to say more, but its like that feeling you get, when perhaps you think its better to just to say nothing and keep it simple.  

At the very least I’m going to read some more, and maybe do some work on it, if I get around to doing my website. These things should be preserved and remembered, very very important. And at times like the golden jubilee, its good to be reminded what real history is.


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## rorymac (Jun 1, 2002)

True Bezzer...
And bruise's first post is so definitively accurate it should be preserved IMO.


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## kupa (Jun 1, 2002)

never visted this site b4, but it is really heart warming to read these postings about the miners. this is just a short posting. i will write about my experiences later. i just felt i had to say a warm hello to everybody as i will certainly be dropping by here a lot more in future, thanx all for caring.....

not sure how these smilie things work tho!!    will these print on my posting? excuse the newbie pls, cheers


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## treelover (Jun 1, 2002)

bump, hello kupa, welcome to the boards, spec P/P, we need all hands, look forward to hearing your contribution, mine is being prepared, bit nervous as i admit some failings...


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## TheGremlin (Jun 1, 2002)

> _Originally posted by rorymac _
> *I was involved with benefits for the miners at the time and the stories that they'd tell about intimidation/violence by the police etc was sickening.
> Thatcher and every bastard in her government involved with the treatment the miners received want fucking torturing.
> The same goes for the lying fuckers in the media.
> Tory cunts. *




Scargill's stated intent was to bring down the government. This is not acceptable in a democracy.

Saw what was happening at the time, some of those posting are looking at things through rose tinted spectacles. the level of violence perpetrated by the strikers was horrifying. Have a look at the newsreels of the time.


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## Roadkill (Jun 1, 2002)

Violence was not a one-sided thing, Gremlin.

And I can't understand how anyone who claims to care about democracy could support Thatcher anyway.  She did more harm to democracy in this country than any leader in recent times.  She turned local government into a clique of unelected, Tory-dominated quangoes, she abolished democratic institutions that got in her way, she gave the police licence to behave like thugs, she centralised government to an even more ridiculous extent than it was centralised anyway.

We'd be in a better state if Scargill had toppled her or, better still, if the evil hag had dropped dead in 1978. 

Rightisgood, notice you've gone quiet.  Still mulling over your answer to how you managed to join the police at age eight?


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## TheGremlin (Jun 1, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Oscar _
> *Violence was not a one-sided thing, Gremlin.
> 
> And I can't understand how anyone who claims to care about democracy could support Thatcher anyway.  She did more harm to democracy in this country than any leader in recent times.  She turned local government into a clique of unelected, Tory-dominated quangoes, she abolished democratic institutions that got in her way, she gave the police licence to behave like thugs, she centralised government to an even more ridiculous extent than it was centralised anyway.
> ...



Everyone, as they say, is entitled to their opinion. Local councillors were elected by the populace in 1984, just as they are now. QUANGOS have increased under Blair, and his habit of putting friends and donors into positions of real power is there to be seen, The lord chancellor, the science minister ( Sainsbury ) , transport minister ( Gus MacDonald ) all into government positions by making them life peers.

The deep mining industry in the UK had been losing about a million pounds a day for a long time. we simply could not compete with imported coal on a price basis, nor was it reasonable t support mining financially at the expense of other social needs.

Margaret Thatchers action in breaking the poewr of the trade unions laid the basis of todays prosperity.

Edited to say: I agree that the violence was not one sided, there was excessive violence by both sides, the injuries caused to the police horses was nauseating though.


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## Roadkill (Jun 1, 2002)

I'm not going to be drawn into an argument on Trade Unionism, because it would just be covering the ground already cocvered in this thread.  Suffice to say that bashing the unions was as much about finding a political scapegoat for a bad situation as improving the economy.  As I said, using the example of the car industry, trade unions weren't designing or marketing the cars or investing in new plant and equipment; rubbish management was at least as much to blame for the crisis of the 1970s as the unions.

I quite agree that Blair is a master at cronyism and quango-government, but he's only following a precedent that Mrs T set.  

there aren't many people I hate, but Mrs Thatcher is one of them.  I don't say this lightly, but I sincerely wish she had dropped down dead before she got anywhere near the position of power she so grossly abused.


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## TheGremlin (Jun 1, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Oscar _
> *I'm not going to be drawn into an argument on Trade Unionism, because it would just be covering the ground already cocvered in this thread.  Suffice to say that bashing the unions was as much about finding a political scapegoat for a bad situation as improving the economy.  As I said, using the example of the car industry, trade unions weren't designing or marketing the cars or investing in new plant and equipment; rubbish management was at least as much to blame for the crisis of the 1970s as the unions.
> 
> I quite agree that Blair is a master at cronyism and quango-government, but he's only following a precedent that Mrs T set.
> ...



I think we will have to agree to disagree on that one Oscar  

You have a valid point about poor management though, I feel that this is still the case.


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## Roadkill (Jun 1, 2002)

I agree, but I think the problem is systemic.  Britain's financial system is very much geared to short-term profit rather than long term growth.  Takeovers and mergers are prized as a positive good, so companies add shareholder value by swallowing each other up rather than through genuine innovation.  The financial system is centred on London and is insensitive to real needs elsewhere.

With the exception of the last, all of the above problems were created or exacerbated by Thatcherism.


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## TheGremlin (Jun 1, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Oscar _
> *I agree, but I think the problem is systemic.  Britain's financial system is very much geared to short-term profit rather than long term growth.  Takeovers and mergers are prized as a positive good, so companies add shareholder value by swallowing each other up rather than through genuine innovation.  The financial system is centred on London and is insensitive to real needs elsewhere.
> 
> With the exception of the last, all of the above problems were created or exacerbated by Thatcherism. *



Have you looked at waht is happening in the pharmaceutical industry? Bristol Myers and Glaxo Smith Klein are talking of merging............there are 46 original companies in those two groups. we will end up with perhaps 5 pharmaceutical companies controlling 95% of the market. Not good news.


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## pema (Jun 1, 2002)

That's capitalism/the free market/globalisation for you Gremlin.   Thatcher was a major proponent of all this.


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## rorymac (Jun 1, 2002)

I find it hard to express (without expessing violence/hatred) my feelings on Thatcher and all that she represented.
In fact I can't do it.
I really don't know where you're coming from Gremlin.
As if life under Blair v Thatcher was any kind of argument????
He's a despicable bastard just like she is.
"Today's prosperity" !!! my fucking arse.
Knob.


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## TheGremlin (Jun 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by rorymac _
> *I find it hard to express (without expessing violence/hatred) my feelings on Thatcher and all that she represented.
> In fact I can't do it.
> I really don't know where you're coming from Gremlin.
> ...



I get your message, to each their own. The country is prosperous enough tto withstand the 27Bn per annum in extra taxes that we are paying since Blair came in, without it quite killing the economy.


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## vimto (Jun 2, 2002)

Is your name David McLetchie?


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## rightisgood (Jun 2, 2002)

*it's good to see*

how Lady Thatcher still gets you guys so upset.  She must have done such a great job.  I guess getting the support of the British public for 3 elections must have meant she was doing something right.


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## white rabbit (Jun 2, 2002)

You wouldn't have said that if you'd grown up in a mining community in Kent, Yorkshire, Nottinghamshire, Wales or the North East of England during the Thatcher years.

It's funny, I'd imagine rightisgood to be all "English jobs for English people" but when push comes to shove, he'd rather have coal imported from Australia or the Ukraine than from an English pit.


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## handy1 (Jun 2, 2002)

remember it well (i was 18) the level of violence by the cops was disgusting but, easier to swallow than their payslip waving episodes. remember karma you cunts.

i read one account of when the pickets, fed up of being bitten by alsations (maybe at orgrieve) had an answer to the pathetic cops and their pathetic dogs. the cops moved toward a line of miners, the cop dogs straining at the leashes, when the line of pickets backed up to be replaced by a second line of men with thier english bulls and staffordshire bulls really straining at their leads   a mass yelp went up from cop dog when they saw them,and the cops were suddenly dragged backwards en-masse!  
(dogs know when not to fuck with certain dogs)

 the miners taught the cops a lesson in restraint and humanity,they kept their dogs leashed


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## rightisgood (Jun 2, 2002)

*I may be wrong*

but from what i can remember there was a cold blooded murder during the miners strike, something to do with a taxi driver and a concrete slab.  Was it the police did this???????  I just can't remember


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## handy1 (Jun 2, 2002)

*I may be wrong*



> _Originally posted by rightisgood _
> *but from what i can remember there was a cold blooded murder during the miners strike, something to do with a taxi driver and a concrete slab.  Was it the police did this???????  I just can't remember *



 you can't remember?? can you remember joining the police at 8 years old?? you never answered that one did you?!!


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## rightisgood (Jun 2, 2002)

*do you*

expect me to tell the truth in my profile. le's just say very late 30's.  Now, perhaps you could remind me who committed the murder during the miners strike


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## TinyCrendon (Jun 2, 2002)

no one said the guy killed was justified. ever. its so sick you bring up the actions of two idiots to undermine the idea of a legitimate strike to save ones jobs.

for example ms Thatcher always argued about the jobs cutting back the arms industry would lose (100,000 is the figure usually bandied about) yet she didnt have the same concerns for other ordinary British people - the miners.

margaret thatcher was, like most British Prime Ministers, elected by a MINORITY of the population. The biggest slice of the adult population eleigible to vote in the uk she ever got was around 33% (post Falklands maj of 144) which nevertheless is much more than the 23% Tony Blair got last time out (in return for whcih he gets 70% of the seats maj 160-odd)


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## rightisgood (Jun 2, 2002)

*why*

is it sick of me to bring up the cold blooded and planned murder of an innocent taxi driver.  Everyone else thinks it is cool to bring up the violence of the police so expect to get challenged.


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## rorymac (Jun 2, 2002)

Jesus wept.


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## Red Alex (Jun 2, 2002)

Of course the murder of an innocent man is bad, but rightisgood if you are accusing us who support the case of the miners of hypocrisy, you are open to the same charge as you seem determined to ignore the violence and Chilean style tactics of the police at the time.  If you think I'm lying there was article in the Guardian magazine a few weeks ago outlining the fact that Thatcher got most of her ideas from Chile + Pinochet, it also mentions that Picnochet was "impressed" by Thatchers tactics in the 1984/85 strike.


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## rightisgood (Jun 2, 2002)

*from the*

Guardian... oh well it must be true then


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## Red Alex (Jun 2, 2002)

Of course its true, just look at the actions of Thatcher and the Tories during the Pinochet affair a few years ago.  If she wasn't such a big fan of Pinochet why did she kick up such a storm about his (fully justified) arrest?


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## rightisgood (Jun 2, 2002)

*his arrest*

was not justified.  Just because Mandelson thought it was wonderful!!!


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## TheGremlin (Jun 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by vimto _
> *Is your name David McLetchie? *




Unequivocally, NO!


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## Roadkill (Jun 2, 2002)

Rightisgood, if it had been a "left wing" dictator, say Castro for argument's sake, who had been arested, I bet you, Mrs Thatcher and all the rest of the right would be baying for his blood.  You'd be invoking all sorts of high-flown rhetoric about how murderous dictators should face justice.  But because it was a fellow rightist, the right in this country closed ranks around him.  Hypocrisy of the highest order, i think.

In any case, why am I bothering to argue with you?  If you can't even tell the truth about your age, why should you be trusted on anything else?

Liar, hypocrit and bigot.


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## rightisgood (Jun 2, 2002)

*Excuse me*

but was'nt the chinese preseident allowed in and given protection from protesters by the labour govt, and this was before Pinochet.  One rule for the left and one for the right.


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## Roadkill (Jun 2, 2002)

Very probably.  IMO it's sickening that these things are used as political footballs.  A butcher is a butcher, no matter what political creed he claims to espouse, and should be treated as such, not given protection by his erstwhile political allies.

But again, you can hardly criticise Labour allowing the Chinese president in if you are prepared to allow a butcher like Pinochet to go free.


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## rightisgood (Jun 2, 2002)

*Difference being*

after the chinese leader was welcomed by the labour party and the Queen forced to meet him and then let him go free despite being a murderer of thousands, they then arrest Pinochet.  If you arrest one you have to arrest the other, that's my point.


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## Roadkill (Jun 2, 2002)

In which case, I agree with you.


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## exosculate (Jun 2, 2002)

People like RightisGood quite happily lie on this thread and still expect themselves to be taken seriously. A while back on this thread Rightisgood accused me of being a liar because this person ?..... didn't like what I said.

I like it the proven liar accusing others of being liars - he/she/it ??? (hard to say given other profile inaccuracies) is very funny indeed ....and since they are so obviously trolling they are not worth the energy of consistently responding to them.

Respect to all contributors to this thread, including the right-wing (honest ones anyway) logically/rationally argued contributions.


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## Red Alex (Jun 2, 2002)

rightisgood, you seem to be under the misapprehension that the Chinese president is "left wing".  I remind you that he was here to make deals with British big business for the opening up of the Chinese economy - hardly left wing!  And I agree the leaders of China are a gang of murderous dictators anyone with a brain can see that.  But that doesn't stop the UK under your beloved Tories cosying up to them as Blair is now.


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## Maidmarian (Jun 2, 2002)

Back - tracking a little (I`ve not been here for a couple of days)

Gremlin --- I don`t think anyone here condoned the death of the taxi driver & personally I abhor violence -------

However what you remember seems selective ----

Eg Do you remember the BBC having to apologise (After the strike was over, of course)
for the footage they showed of Orgreve -----
Due to a "Mistake on the cutting room floor"
The sequence of events was apparently reversed ----I.E. what we saw was the miners rush the police -- chucking stones at horses etc----
When what had actually happened was that mounted police charged the (unarmed) pickets who attemped to get away --- those trapped attempted to defend themselves with whatever came to hand ----??


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## TinyCrendon (Jun 2, 2002)

if my memory serves me, from an ITV documentary on the strike, there were around 400 arrests at Orgreve, 150 odd came to court and 11 were found guilty. none of whom served any time. (ie minor offences like obstruction)

in other words people were rounded up, arrested and there were no cases to answer at all.

in fact the local magistrates and judges eventually complained at the waste of their time.


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## JJJJJ (Jun 2, 2002)

Britain needed Thatcher just as England now need Lord Sven.
The Unions had brought down a few previous governments and it was time to show that the majority view needed to be enacted. Thatcher took down the largest Union so that none would apose the government in future and we are reaping the economic benefits today! 
Byers you have gone - the first Tory/Daily Mail scalp


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## Roadkill (Jun 2, 2002)

Britain needed Thatcher like I need a borehole through my head.


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## rightisgood (Jun 2, 2002)

*warnig to jjjj*

you are in for it mate


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## white rabbit (Jun 2, 2002)

Britain needed Thatcher like u75 needs rightisgood.


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## duncanh64 (Jun 2, 2002)

*warnig to jjjj*



> _Originally posted by rightisgood _
> *you are in for it mate *



He deserves to be.

NUM were never the largest union. 
Can't pretend to speak for the miners, just my own opinion, but as far as I remember, no one was specifically out to 'bring the government down'. The Tory Govt of the time had made it clear that they we going to destroy the industry, their jobs and much of the rest of the local economy that depended on it. The miners were desperately fighting for their jobs and their communities. Thatcher had been re-elected in '83 and the Tories won a few seats in mining areas like Sherwood Notts, Amber Valley Derbys. Did they say in their manifesto what they planned to do to the industry?

Even now there's precious little of JJJJ's 'economic benefits' where I live.  The pits are gone, the other main industries - textiles, engineering etc are on their last legs; unemployment and low pay are big problems.  Working down the pit wasn't exactly fun, but it could at least earn you a half-decent wage [not all miners were on mega-wages though - that's another Tory myth]; the 'Mcjobs' that have come in now are a poor replacement.

Thatcher stood for narrow-mindedness, selfishness, division, making the rich richer at the expense of the poor. Her government sold off everything they could get their hands on to their rich friends and tried to pass it off as 'popular capitalism'. They used mass unemployment to drive down wages and smash the unions, which whatever you say are [or should be] there to get working people a bit of a better deal in the workplace, not the ogres they are made out to be.  

New Labour have continued much of Thatcher's policies and outlook, and I can't stand Blair, but every time I hear Thatcher's voice on the TV/radio, I still feel the anger rising  .

_Edited for spelling errors. And while I'm having a go at Thatcher, I should have mentioned the abomination that was the Poll Tax _.


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## TheGremlin (Jun 2, 2002)

It must be nearly ten years since Margaret Thatcher was PM, yet what passion she arouses..........quelle femme !

Edited to add: Having lit blue touchpaper he retires


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## rorymac (Jun 2, 2002)

The only consolation Gremlin is that history is not doing Thatcher any favours.
And she doesn't half deserve that...
Must be killing her inside...
Long may she live and suffer.


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## vimto (Jun 2, 2002)

Oi Grubling

I seem to remember that you were also exposed as being a bit of a lying fuckwit on these boards.


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## TheGremlin (Jun 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by rorymac _
> *The only consolation Gremlin is that history is not doing Thatcher any favours.
> And she doesn't half deserve that...
> Must be killing her inside...
> Long may she live and suffer. *



I doubt it, I think that Thatcher truly believed that her course was right.


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## vimto (Jun 2, 2002)

duncan said.

"Edited for spelling errors. And while I'm having a go at Thatcher, I should have mentioned the abomination that was the Poll Tax ."

Oooh, yes please.


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## rorymac (Jun 2, 2002)

I'm sure she did in her own pathetic narrow ..we have the power..you are scum..way.
But as fucked up as everything is ...she is not going down like she assumed she would.....karma.
Tough shit for Margaret to swallow.


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## Maidmarian (Jun 3, 2002)

Rory -- Vimto ---Duncan  !!!!!

      RESPECT !


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## rumble (Jun 3, 2002)

I'm wondering what was so very wrong with the the Community Charge (often  impertinently labelled the Poll Tax). Was it wrong to expect everyone to pay for Council Services?


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## blamblam (Jun 3, 2002)

This is really for another debate, but for a simple answer: it is wrong to make the poor pay more for them than the rich. That's what the Poll Tax was about you dumbarse


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## rorymac (Jun 3, 2002)

You're wondering are you rumble??
I'll just call you a fuckwit and I'll let someone else explain it to you..
I gets too mad..


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## rumble (Jun 3, 2002)

The so-called 'poor' weren't expected to pay more, just their share, which I doubt they pay now under this apology for a Government


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## rorymac (Jun 3, 2002)

How can you be so impossibly stupid??
It never ceases to amaze me..
Positively planklike .


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## Maidmarian (Jun 3, 2002)

Oh Dear !!!! Rumble !

Really there was a lot wrong with the community charge --- !!! Surely even you know that !!!

I`ve NO probs paying taxes ---BUT I do think a local income-tax would be a fairer way to pay for local services.


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## WasGeri (Jun 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by rumble _
> *I'm wondering what was so very wrong with the the Community Charge (often  impertinently labelled the Poll Tax). Was it wrong to expect everyone to pay for Council Services? *



The problem with the poll tax was that everyone paid the same, regardless of income. Therefore someone on a low wage was paying a disproportionate amount of their income in comparison to a high earner. Do you think that is fair?


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## rumble (Jun 3, 2002)

I'll admit I was a bit Blimpish last night. At time of Poll tax, I didn't see why it was a protest issue On paper, everyone would be paying for local services. There were lots of anomolies over the then Rating system PT was a failure as it became uncollectable . I don't think it, as an issue brought thatcher down. Divisions within Tory party over Europe may have done that


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## Maidmarian (Jun 3, 2002)

Rumble ---- see my previous post ------

The rating system wasn`t fair --- it`s true ----

But the poll tax really hit the disadvantaged .

I don`t agree that EU stuff brought the Tories down -------

            I think it was EVERYTHING !!


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## duncanh64 (Jun 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by TheGremlin _
> *It must be nearly ten years since Margaret Thatcher was PM, yet what passion she arouses..........quelle femme !
> 
> *



As she resigned on 22 November 1990, it's more than 10 years; in fact it's 11 years and 193 days  .  Still have a copy of the _Evening Standard_ for that day with the banner headline: 'Thatcher Resigns'. I take it out and look at it sometimes, when I need cheering up.

BTW, does anyone remember the name of the pub halfway up Whitehall, on the left if you're approaching Parliament from Traf Square?  I and some mates went in there on that night to celebrate the beast's demise and the landlord called the law and had us all chucked out.

ps thanks marian .


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## Hocus Eye. (Jun 3, 2002)

Excellent thread.

The miners strike was a horrible period of time.  I finally got round to joining the Labour party and our ward did some collecting in support of the miners.  

Surprisingly it was the Nottingham miners we supported - I had thought that Nottingham miners were not on strike but had created a new boss-friendly union.   These ones were most definitely on strike.  We collected food mostly and money of course.

Scargill was right, he said it was a plan to close down the industry and that was the end result.  Yes the 'Ridley Plan' was hatched even before Thatcher was in power.  It was partly revenge for the previous miner's strikes and the three day week of Ted Heath's time.  Thatcher understood about class war.  Ted Heath not a popular Tory PM by any means was well to the left of the present Tony Blair, however and even instituted inflation linked (ish) wage increases as a partial relaxation of wage controls.

The Poll Tax was the next big thing.  I was on that major demo. I never saw so many coaches on the M1 going to it.  Never was in a bigger demo in my life.  Afterwards I left early by tube from Charing Cross to get back to an important annual dinner and presentation for a long standing work colleague who was leaving.  I left Trafagar Square at about 10 to 6 pm.  Guess who did not see any violence until I turned on the TV an hour later?

They were bad years.  We will never forget them.  I am no longer a member of the Labour party which did not come out in support of the miners as a party and did not oppose the Poll Tax.  It had already gone rotten before Blair was levered into power by Mandelson et al.  Now it is beyond redemption.

Hocus Eye - sadder and perhaps wiser


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## Maidmarian (Jun 4, 2002)

You are right about the Notts miners Hocus --

The UDM was (An allbeit large) splinter group which broke away from the NUM.

A mate of mine (Who sadly died recently )led the remaining NUM members here ---A VERY courageous thing to do---- The Notts NUM members held out `till the bitter end too-----

Arthur Scargill came to the funeral --- he looks a broken man !


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## gerryB (Jun 4, 2002)

such an absorbing thread I've just burnt my dinner 
thatcher did have a plan and it was to smash the unions one by one and she always knew smashing the miners would be decisive. that's why she was prepared to pay millions to do so. freedom? does anyone remember the roadblocks? you couldn't take a coach up the motorway to show support to striking miners, so much for freedom of expression. 
many police were sickened by what they were asked to do and generally the worst were those who came from furthest away, often London. but ordinary londoners (workers and middle class) gave huge support. there were collections for the miners outside supermarkets in brixton. where i worked (a women's hostel) we had a monthly levy straight from our wages to the strike support fund. I can't imagine it happening now. we've lost that sense of solidarity. I hope we can get it back. 
like many others, i get too emotional thinking about it. thatcher  (along with reagan and pinochet! ) pioneered what we now see as globalisation: smash the unions, drive down the cost of labour, break up manufacturing industry (a bastion of union power), punish solidarity, privatise everything, destroy even the idea of social responsibility...
it's too dismal.  
my daughter was born at the end of the strike. it's weird to think there's a whole generation passed. i hope hers will have something as powerful to remember and that we win this time!


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## anarchistnurse (Jun 4, 2002)

The Church of England comes to our defence!  I know anarchists have a bit of a reputation for burning churches.  But if any one should venture into Durham Cathederal they will find a book listing all the workers killed in the Durham Light Infantry in the defence of capatalism and empire and also another book.  This lists all the miners killed in Durham.  Near to it is a notice explaining the effect of the destruction of the mining industry on local communities.  The interesting thing is that the Church of England describe the closing down of the coal mines as a " decision by the government ".  If the state religion is honest enough to point the finger of blame, surely the rightwing apologists have to put their hands up and admit that it had nothing to do with economic viability, profits or different power sources but a decision to take on a section of the working class seen as the most organized and powerful and destroy them.  Hopefully Thatcher will have another stroke soon.  Not too crippling, but enough to take away her dignity and respect and ability to work.  Thousands of ex miners will feel empathy but probably not much sympathy.


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## treelover (Jul 15, 2002)

bump, as it is on the eve of a new struggle in the public sector....
lest we forget....


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## Red Alex (Jul 15, 2002)

Exactly lets learn from the past and start winning again!

Alex


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## Cautious Fred (Jul 15, 2002)

That's right. Further up the thread Kaka Tim said:





> What are the chances of workers getting organised and active on a large scale again?


 I think you've just got to look over at Italy and Spain, both of which have had massive general strikes in the past couple of months, and it's even happening in Britain. 

The strikes on Wednesday (17th) may not constitute a general strike, but will be the biggest this country has seen for a long time. 

Not only will councils be closed by Unison and GMB workers etc, but many schools will be closed because local NUT branches are refusing to cross picket lines (Unison/GMB workers also work in schools). On top of that, in London, Tube workers will be striking on the 17th and the 18th.


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## The Black Hand (Jul 17, 2002)

Yes anarchist nurse Durham cathedral is awesome, i suggest everybody takes a trip there and you could combine it with a good day out at the Durham miners gala that's on every year... Not as huge as it was in the 60-s when 250,000 people went but still very influential...


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## bruise (Jul 17, 2002)

an inspirational thread... glad to see it lives on (please not the cull!)


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## Zapher (Jul 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Geri _
> *
> 
> The problem with the poll tax was that everyone paid the same, regardless of income. Therefore someone on a low wage was paying a disproportionate amount of their income in comparison to a high earner. Do you think that is fair? *



Of course everyone was expected to pay the same. The 'poor' pay the same for a loaf of bread as the rich, the same for a pair of jeans ... the same for just about everything. Why should the poll tax have been different?


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## Alfonzo Bonzo (Jul 17, 2002)

Zapher, your argument is so idiotic I assume you have devolved to the level of troll. If you don't like the price of a product, you can buy a cheaper, lower quality one which will do the same job. Tesco Value instead of Kingsmill. Market stall instead of designer label. To my knowledge there was only one brand of poll tax.


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## Zapher (Jul 17, 2002)

Alfonzo, one loaf of bread is pretty much the same price as another. Sensible jeans are more or less the same price. If someone chooses to pay for jeans with diamond studs instead of rivets, more fool them.

Agreed, there was only one brand of poll tax. I didn't like the brand, so I didn't buy it. I told 'em to take me off the register because I was going to Oz.


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