# Practical ideas for stopping destruction in Brixton



## Bob (Aug 8, 2011)

In this thread we contribute practical ideas for stopping any further destruction in Brixton.

Here's my idea, based on behavioural psychology:

Riots are caused by:

1. A small number of people willing and happy to destroy things (mainly for fun, but also for ideological reasons) and steal stuff.

2. A larger group of people who, in the right circumstances, go with the crowd, and join in looting & rioting.

3. A much larger group of people who stand around watching, who don't participate, are interested in it. But they also inadvertently make it much easier for groups 1 & 2 by providing cover for them if the police try to snatch criminals.

4. Not enough police to stop the riot gaining momentum.


Now, not many of us here are police on holiday / leave who can help sort out 4.

But all of us can help by not going and watching. If there were no people watching then scattering the looters / stopping them getting going in the first place would be much easier.

And many of us will be able to dissuade people from going along and watching.

What do you think?


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## Shippou-Sensei (Aug 8, 2011)

i think what  is needed is a less destructive rallying point.

take all the people rioting  and  get them to march up to  westminster

in an ideal world any how


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## free spirit (Aug 8, 2011)

give the kids back some hope of living a decent, interesting and rewarding life instead of removing the EMA that allows them to stay on at school, closing down the youth schemes, failing to support apprenticeships properly, destroying the economy so there's virtually no work for them even if they do manage to get trained, restricting their access to reasonable levels of dole and housing benefit and using the police to harrass and belittle them for daring not to be inside watching the telly.

That sort of thing. Problem is, there's this cycle that goes on where it all get's really shit, resulting in people kicking off, then there are some piecemeal attempts to improve things, then some other wankers get in power and destroy all the improvements that have been made, rip everything up in the names of some fucking stupid small government ideology that seems to be fashionable in Oxford's PPE department.


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## netbob (Aug 8, 2011)

For something to be happening on this scale there have to be underlying issues. In short the government has fucked a generation of kids, and they are taking out their frustration. That doesn't excuse what's going on, but may explain some of it.


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## stuff_it (Aug 8, 2011)

Bob said:


> In this thread we contribute practical ideas for stopping any further destruction in Brixton.
> 
> Here's my idea, based on behavioural psychology:
> 
> ...


Ban shops, with no shops there is nothing to loot!


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## Mrs Magpie (Aug 8, 2011)

More services for children...and the idea that these kids invariably have feckless parents is wrong. Quite often their parents are working until stupid o'clock to keep body and soul together and have no idea their kids are hanging round with role models that would make the hairs on the back of their parental necks stand on end. Also make Camila Batmanghelidjh minister for children and give her a big ring fenced budget.


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## ajdown (Aug 8, 2011)

What exactly are these 'childrens services' that are either being cut, or don't exist.

Thinking back to when I was that age, living in the country... we made our own fun and entertainment.

What am I missing here?


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## Mrs Magpie (Aug 8, 2011)

Unfortunately disaffected kids don't live in the country, aj. A lot of fun and entertainment in the country tends to involve cider and bus shelters redundant for anything else since all the bus services were cut.


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## Mrs Magpie (Aug 8, 2011)

Oh Bob, get people like this to 'read the riot act' when there's disorder.

http://www.twitvid.com/4JTZH


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## Shippou-Sensei (Aug 8, 2011)

people need to care more...


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## ajdown (Aug 8, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Unfortunately disaffected kids don't live in the country, aj. A lot of fun and entertainment in the country tends to involve cider and bus shelters redundant for anything else since all the bus services were cut.



I can identify with the 'cider and bus shelters' analogy... but what are these services that are not in London?  Youth club came round to the village hall on a wednesday evening, we'd pay 20p to get in and sit outside all night.  We had bikes, we'd go up the playing field and sent Martin down the Spar with an order (he had bags on his bike so he could carry stuff), we'd go round each other's houses and play games, we'd never think "oh let's go trash Currys and set fire to it afterwards".


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## sparkybird (Aug 8, 2011)

Just because you're a 'disaffected youth' (what ever that is) doesn't give you the right to destroy another persons home or the right to a free 48" flat screen telly. There are other ways to vent or make change, but obviously they're not such fun and take a bit more thought and effort.

The MP's and the police were calling for parents to contact their children and keep then out of the violence - good idea, they should take some responsibility instead of the nanny state having to do it

Some innocent person will die shortly as a result of this violence

Rant over


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## qosno1 (Aug 9, 2011)

I know you're looking for practical long term solutions but should we also discuss short term solutions i.e. neighbourhood patrols. Everyone wants this to stop but can't do anything by themselves. If we can organise we can keep our area safe.


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## TruXta (Aug 9, 2011)

As I said elsewhere, unless

# you know your neighbours fairly well, or
# there is an urgent and present danger to your home/part of the street

most people will lock their doors and put on the telly, being the quintessential passive bystanders.


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## Bob (Aug 9, 2011)

TruXta said:


> As I said elsewhere, unless
> 
> # you know your neighbours fairly well, or
> # there is an urgent and present danger to your home/part of the street
> ...


 
Which is generally a good thing.

Another thought is that if you are a teacher - and you see any of your kids taking part, then you have an obligation to tell both their parents and (if they are actually doing something criminal) the police.


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## cybertect (Aug 9, 2011)

TruXta said:


> most people will lock their doors and put on the telly, being the quintessential passive bystanders.



official police advice last night was to do that IIRC


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## TruXta (Aug 9, 2011)

cybertect said:


> official police advice last night was to do that IIRC



And I can understand why. Then again if communities across London actually got together and told the youth to stop this, things would stop. Two hundred kids don't stand a chance against tens of thousands of pissed off adults.


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## qosno1 (Aug 9, 2011)

> Then again if communities across London actually got together and told the youth to stop this, things would stop. Two hundred kids don't stand a chance against tens of thousands of pissed off adults.



I've said this several times but nobody seems to be taking me up on it. There are talks on twitter of an anti-curfew, all healthy adults should be out on the street from 8pm onwards to reclaim the streets around us. This is what is needed, we can't rely on the authorities to sort this, they are outnumbered. Problem is I have no idea how to organise it.


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## Brixton Hatter (Aug 9, 2011)

by mad coincidence I've just finished reading a book (written in 1982) called "Uprising" about the 1981 riots in Brtixton, Toxteth, Southall etc. The sad thing is that all the reasons for the riots and the solutions that were suggested back in 1981 are exactly the same as today. Which suggests the Government has learnt nothing over the past 30 years.

My practical solution would be to dismantle this fucked up system that keeps people poor so the rich can get richer...


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 9, 2011)

Get hundreds of women with balls like her on the streets of Brixton with loudhailers to scare them away.

Alternatively, get their mothers down to drag them all home by their ears and make them go to bed without tea.


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## Gramsci (Aug 9, 2011)

She makes a good point.


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## Greebo (Aug 9, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Get hundreds of women with balls like her on the streets of Brixton with loudhailers to scare them away.
> 
> Alternatively, get their mothers down to drag them all home by their ears and make them go to bed without tea.


Even more embarrassing, get their nans to do it.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 9, 2011)

Greebo said:


> Even more embarrassing, get their nans to do it.



Yeah, nans are normally much bolshier!


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## TruXta (Aug 9, 2011)

Nans and aunts.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 9, 2011)

TruXta said:


> Nans and aunts.



and little sisters to tell them what naughty boys they are


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## TruXta (Aug 9, 2011)

TBH the little sisters are probably preparing "shopping" lists.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 9, 2011)

Barbie doll please

Nah, I reckon sobbing little baby sisters could stop naughty big brothers from misbehaving


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## TruXta (Aug 9, 2011)

Depends on the age I reckon. Anyway, jokes aside, families and communities are essential in keeping things calm over the next few days.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 9, 2011)

TruXta said:


> Depends on the age I reckon. Anyway, jokes aside, families and communities are essential in keeping things calm over the next few days.



I was never allowed out as late as some of these kids have been out, even during holidays


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## Greebo (Aug 9, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I was never allowed out as late as some of these kids have been out, even during holidays


Neither was I.


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## ajdown (Aug 9, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I was never allowed out as late as some of these kids have been out, even during holidays



Same here, even aged 14-15 I was expected to be home by 9pm even at weekends.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 9, 2011)

Greebo said:


> Neither was I.



You should do a poll to see what time people were allowed out 'til


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## TruXta (Aug 9, 2011)

LOL - how old are we all then? When I was 14-15 I'd be out all night. Then again my folks were fairly liberal. Plus I lived in the middle of nowhere, Norway.


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## Greebo (Aug 9, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> You should do a poll to see what time people were allowed out 'til


No, you do it - it was your idea and I'm far too busy procrastinating anyway


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 9, 2011)

Greebo said:


> No, you do it - it was your idea and I'm far too busy procrastinating anyway



Nah, can't be arsed.

Truxta?


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## ajdown (Aug 9, 2011)

That would have been in the mid to late eighties for me.  Grew up in Somerset so apart from a bit of apple scrumping there wasn't a lot of crime really.


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## Mrs Magpie (Aug 9, 2011)

If you are living in social housing you positively encourage your kids to get out of the house. There's not much space. All social housing I've lived in (three places in the last 30 years) has been pretty cramped. The place I'm in now used to be two reasonable sized bedrooms and a tiny one. One reasonable sized bedroom was turned into two minuscule ones at some time in the past to stay within regulations about numbers of bedrooms. They'll take a bed and not much else. This leaves us with one reasonable sized bedroom and three tiny ones.


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## Mrs Magpie (Aug 9, 2011)

A lot of social unrest in cities could be sorted by dealing with the UK's housing crisis.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 9, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> If you are living in social housing you positively encourage your kids to get out of the house. There's not much space. All social housing I've lived in (three places in the last 30 years) has been pretty cramped. The place I'm in now used to be two reasonable sized bedrooms and a tiny one. One reasonable sized bedroom was turned into two minuscule ones at some time in the past to stay within regulations about numbers of bedrooms. They'll take a bed and not much else. This leaves us with one reasonable sized bedroom and three tiny ones.



I can understand that but 'til past midnight for some of these kids who are reportedly 13/14 (although admittedly I don't know whether any kids of that age were out that late)


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## TruXta (Aug 9, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Nah, can't be arsed.
> 
> Truxta?



I don't do polls, Milady.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 9, 2011)

TruXta said:


> I don't do polls, Milady.



oh well, we'll have to do without


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## Greebo (Aug 9, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I can understand that but 'til past midnight for some of these kids<snip>


You never heard of teenagers (or younger) agreeing that each of them tells their parents that they're sleeping over at somebody else's house, so that (effectively) nobody expects them in at a reasonable hour, then?


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## TruXta (Aug 9, 2011)

Greebo said:


> You never heard of teenagers (or younger) agreeing that each of them tells their parents that they're sleeping over at somebody else's house, so that (effectively) nobody expects them in at a reasonable hour, then?



That's easily rumbled by a few strategic phonecalls tho.


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## quimcunx (Aug 9, 2011)

firepoi.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 9, 2011)

Greebo said:


> You never heard of teenagers (or younger) agreeing that each of them tells their parents that they're sleeping over at somebody else's house, so that (effectively) nobody expects them in at a reasonable hour, then?



Yeah, I've seen it on films and then the parent goes and rings the other parent and the other parent says "she old me she was staying at yours".  Rumbled


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## Mrs Magpie (Aug 9, 2011)

Greebo said:


> You never heard of teenagers (or younger) agreeing that each of them tells their parents that they're sleeping over at somebody else's house, so that (effectively) nobody expects them in at a reasonable hour, then?


I remember doing that a couple of times.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 9, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> I remember doing that a couple of times.



Your kids have probably done it to you


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## Mrs Magpie (Aug 9, 2011)

Nah, I was wise to it. One time my son was out all night with his mate but he'd been rumbled by 8pm because I checked up.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 9, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Nah, I was wise to it. One time my son was out all night with his mate but he'd been rumbled by 8pm because I checked up.


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## pk (Aug 10, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Nah, I was wise to it. One time my son was out all night with his mate but he'd been rumbled by 8pm because I checked up.



I get the feeling a lot of the parents of the kids out last night could do with checking up on their kids. Seems they were happy to see them out looting. Wonder how many of their front doors will be getting smashed open by the robbery squad in a few hours time, and wishing they'd have checked after all.


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## TruXta (Aug 10, 2011)

Mindreader are we?


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## Pickman's model (Aug 10, 2011)

pk said:


> I get the feeling a lot of the parents of the kids out last night could do with checking up on their kids. Seems they were happy to see them out looting.


seems? seen footage of parents saying that have you?


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## pk (Aug 10, 2011)

No, just a parent who would not be sitting back if I thought my kid was out in that at 2am.


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## Mrs Magpie (Aug 10, 2011)

On the other hand there are parents on my estate who do night shifts and the bloke next door does two jobs as does his wife (all low paid). Our rent has gone up enormously in the last two years.


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## pk (Aug 10, 2011)

10 year old kids running around Manchester now, at 00:15 at night.

Just shown them live on Sky News. Why aren't the cops picking them up and taking them home??

How can they go on news TV this late with no thought to what their parent/s might be thinking?

What sort of parents are these?


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## pk (Aug 10, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> On the other hand there are parents on my estate who do night shifts and the bloke next door does two jobs as does his wife (all low paid). Our rent has gone up enormously in the last two years.



Everything's gone up in price, there's no doubt frustrations and anger are felt in every corner, but this shit? Little kids?


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## TruXta (Aug 10, 2011)

FFS pk can you not take this shit elsewhere?


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## pk (Aug 10, 2011)

What "shit"? This thread is called
*Practical ideas for stopping destruction in Brixton*


Do you think the parents of these kids are not a practical way of beginning to address this situation?

Or are you just another idiot hell-bent on diverting the blame for what has happened away from the anti-social feral rats for some sort of weird blinkered political gain?


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## Mrs Magpie (Aug 10, 2011)

There are some parents who don't give a shit. There are some parents who do give a shit but have no idea who their kids hang out with and would faint clean away if they knew the truth. There are some parents who believe every word their children tell them (I once worked with a woman who thought the sun shone directly out of her son's backside and got a right shock when he got nicked for aggravated burglary).


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## pk (Aug 10, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> There are some parents who don't give a shit. There are some parents who do give a shit but have no idea who their kids hang out with and would faint clean away if they knew the truth. There are some parents who believe every word their children tell them (I once worked with a woman who thought the sun shone directly out of her son's backside and got a right shock when he got nicked for aggravated burglary).



Then where does responsibility lie here? With the 13 year old kid or his/her parents??

They can't get put in jail until 17 - they know it too well, and are victims not only of a socio-economic farce but of the gang culture.


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## Mrs Magpie (Aug 10, 2011)

The thing is, pk, you see the world in very simplistic knee-jerk terms, but the world is far more complicated than that.


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## Mrs Magpie (Aug 10, 2011)

Maybe responsibility lies with them and also beyond them too.


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## TruXta (Aug 10, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> There are some parents who don't give a shit. There are some parents who do give a shit but have no idea who their kids hang out with and would faint clean away if they knew the truth. There are some parents who believe every word their children tell them (I once worked with a woman who thought the sun shone directly out of her son's backside and got a right shock when he got nicked for aggravated burglary).



Sadly your complexities are wasted on pk's mind. All he sees is scum and rats who obey no laws, rhyme with no reason. In his world parents are all-seeing, all-powerful, all benign, or if not, not at all - blind, ignorant, weak, evil, lazy, feckless and more likely than not black. So fuck off pk, there's a good lad.


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## pk (Aug 10, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> The thing is, pk, you see the world in very simplistic knee-jerk terms, but the world is far more complicated than that.



No dear, I type out knee-jerk opinions in here to break the fluffy little veil of circle-jerk. The complexity of this situation will never be addressed by cowardly skirting around the fundamental issues that are behind this trouble. I suppose I hope for some form of coherent and energised action from what was once a pretty healthy movement, with all the protest stuff.
I'm left wanting, it doesn't warrant offering much more here than a knee-jerk opinion just to try and help people understand how the likely vast majority actually sees it. It's clearly making people uncomfortable. Bless.


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## pk (Aug 10, 2011)

TruXta said:


> So fuck off pk, there's a good lad.



Unlikely. I'll be here long after you've fucked off too. So get used to it sweetie.


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## Brixton Hatter (Aug 10, 2011)

pk said:


> 10 year old kids running around Manchester now, at 00:15 at night.
> 
> Just shown them live on Sky News. Why aren't the cops picking them up and taking them home??


erm, cos they're guarding the shops in the city centre?


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## TruXta (Aug 10, 2011)

pk said:


> Unlikely. I'll be here long after you've fucked off too. So get used to it sweetie.



Oh I meant this thread you pompous little shit.


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## Mrs Magpie (Aug 10, 2011)

TruXta said:


> Oh I meant this thread you patronising pompous little shit.


corrected for you


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## TruXta (Aug 10, 2011)

Well, I never...


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## Corax (Aug 10, 2011)

On the OP, I suggest covering everything with bubblewrap.


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## TruXta (Aug 10, 2011)

Corax said:


> On the OP, I suggest covering everything with bubblewrap.



Only problem is it is really rather inflammable.


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## DotCommunist (Aug 10, 2011)

pk said:


> No dear, I type out knee-jerk opinions in here to break the fluffy little veil of circle-jerk. The complexity of this situation will never be addressed by cowardly skirting around the fundamental issues that are behind this trouble. I suppose I hope for some form of coherent and energised action from what was once a pretty healthy movement, with all the protest stuff.
> I'm left wanting, it doesn't warrant offering much more here than a knee-jerk opinion just to try and help people understand how the likely vast majority actually sees it. It's clearly making people uncomfortable. Bless.



smashing the bald man and getting laughed at yes.


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## TruXta (Aug 10, 2011)

Fuck you and your onanistic puns DC!


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## pk (Aug 10, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> corrected for you



Less of the "little", if you please.

Look it's simple. The idea that "its not their fault, people need to stop and understand them" is pissing people off. 
And it needs dealing with by the left - otherwise it'll be down to the right.




Brixton Hatter said:


> erm, cos they're *guarding* the shops in the city centre?


Is that what they call it now?


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## Bernie Gunther (Aug 10, 2011)

Brixton Hatter said:


> erm, cos they're guarding the shops in the city centre?



Why would the cops give a shit about poor people's flats getting burned out? They don't work for poor people.


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## TruXta (Aug 10, 2011)

pk said:


> Look it's simple. The idea that "its not their fault, people need to stop and understand them" is pissing people off.And it needs dealing with by the left - otherwise it'll be down to the right.



Noone except your voices are saying that it's not their fault. It's been three days of people explaining this to you and a select few other numpties and still it doesn't seep in.


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## pk (Aug 10, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> smashing the bald man and get laughed at yes.



Laugh away. It's better than nothing. And that's all I'm hearing, beyond the usual "oh but it's so complicated!" "they need to be hugged!" nonsense from some quarters.


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## pk (Aug 10, 2011)

Bernie Gunther said:


> Why would the cops give a shit about poor people's flats getting burned out? They don't work for poor people.



Oh do one will you.


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## Corax (Aug 10, 2011)

TruXta said:


> Only problem is it is really rather inflammable.


Asbestos bubblewrap.


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## TruXta (Aug 10, 2011)

Corax said:


> Asbestos bubblewrap.



I don't think that's legal anymore.


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## Corax (Aug 10, 2011)

TruXta said:


> I don't think that's legal anymore.


Bloody 'human rights' - grrrr, etc.


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## pk (Aug 10, 2011)

Best solution yet

http://thumbsnap.com/hDdTrypT?src=tsd


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## Emet (Aug 10, 2011)

pk said:


> Best solution yet
> 
> http://thumbsnap.com/hDdTrypT?src=tsd


Thank you pk. That was truly beautiful. Well done that man in the green t-shirt.

We should do what the Kurds and the Turks have done in some small parts of North London: take back the streets from these moronic fuckwits.


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## fortyplus (Aug 10, 2011)

pk said:


> The complexity of this situation will never be addressed by cowardly skirting around the fundamental issues that are behind this trouble.


Precisely, which the right is reluctant to do. We agree that they are [behaving like] little shits, the questions are why and  how did they become little shits, and how do we stop it.  Just saying, "little shits, pure and simple" - the mantra of the right -  doesn't get us out of having to answer the why and the hows.

So the right's next answer is "I blame the parents", which simply begs another set of whys and hows: why and how are the parents of so many failing?

The politicians' responses are laughable, it seems they think that all these rioting kids have nice suburban parents who can make sure they are home for tea before Dad gets back from work and do their homework afterwards, and if they were just a little more forceful everything would be all right.

Since 1979, the gap between rich and poor has widened - most egregiously, under New Labour.  There have always been people whose circumstances mean that there is little benefit to them from accepting the norms of respect for people and property on which society depends. The more people you allow to fall into such circumstances, the bigger the risk that it will all kick off and it can lead to revolution. Forcing people to accept your values (however right they seem to be to you) is oppression; if those values are right, they need to be right for everyone.

The media seems surprised that there were problems at Clapham Junction ("such a nice area")  - but it is divided by the tracks, with the Northcote Road  "between the commons" on one side, and big tower-block estates on the other.

The last few days are an inevitable consequence of the political classes' failure to comprehend our divided society in any but abstract terms.  And a lot of little shits.


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## pk (Aug 10, 2011)

Emet said:


> Thank you pk. That was truly beautiful. Well done that man in the green t-shirt.
> 
> We should do what the Kurds and the Turks have done in some small parts of North London: take back the streets from these moronic fuckwits.



Unfortunately that wasn't UK - yet. Vancouver riots from June.

These little shits think they own the streets now... sure they are a "lost" generation but the community needs to defend itself. Cops can't dish out the punishment these toerags deserve but the residents can.


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## Winot (Aug 10, 2011)

fortyplus said:


> Precisely, which the right is reluctant to do. We agree that they are [behaving like] little shits, the questions are why and  how did they become little shits, and how do we stop it.  Just saying, "little shits, pure and simple" - the mantra of the right -  doesn't get us out of having to answer the why and the hows.
> 
> So the right's next answer is "I blame the parents", which simply begs another set of whys and hows: why and how are the parents of so many failing?
> 
> ...



Quoted for truth.


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## mrtea (Aug 10, 2011)

Corax said:


> Bloody 'human rights' - grrrr, etc.


What about if next time we just use laughing gas ? and when all the rioters are in hysterics drive in a van load of midgets to run through the crowds and yank their pants down below their ankles ?This human rights and political correctness problem is really starting to p**s me off!


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## TruXta (Aug 10, 2011)

"Human rights problem".... and there we have it. Terrible innit, that people have the right to associate, congregate, speak their mind, not be beaten to a pulp on the whim of a copper.


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## mrtea (Aug 10, 2011)

Comedian S.Hughes on living in a democracy and being offended http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-JxA9Rvs8I&feature=related


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## mrtea (Aug 10, 2011)

yep. and its terrible that out there are families who have worked 9 hours days for 30 / 40 years to maintain their family run shops, and that they end up in the frontline of it all. Its not the system these activists are breaking, its people living within the system..


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## London_Calling (Aug 10, 2011)

RE OP: Stop ajdown from posting his George and Mildred bollocks.


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## editor (Aug 10, 2011)

Bernie Gunther said:


> Why would the cops give a shit about poor people's flats getting burned out? They don't work for poor people.


Perhaps you're using rather broad strokes there? I've known a few cops who most definitely do give a shit about people's property.


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## Bernie Gunther (Aug 10, 2011)

editor said:


> Perhaps you're using rather broad strokes there? I've known a few cops who most definitely do give a shit about people's property.



Yeah, fair point.

I was pretty pissed off last night by the attitudes being displayed by some policitians and senior coppers, but you're quite right to say that statement is unfair to coppers in general.


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## London_Calling (Aug 10, 2011)

btw, where in the job description does it invite coppers to share their GCSE level socio-political theories in press conferences - get on with your fucking jobs and shut up. Thang yew.

*and breathe*


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## Corax (Aug 11, 2011)

mrtea said:


> yep. and its terrible that out there are families who have worked 9 hours days for 30 / 40 years to maintain their family run shops, and that they end up in the frontline of it all. Its not the system these activists are breaking, its people living within the system..


They're not activists.


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## Mrs Magpie (Aug 14, 2011)

According to some mathematician on Radio 4's More Or Less (I may have got this slightly wrong, I was dozing) rioting in Britain on a widespread scale happens when public spending falls to or below 3% of GDP. So that seems to be the best way of preventing riots. More public spending


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## Gramsci (Aug 19, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> According to some mathematician on Radio 4's More Or Less (I may have got this slightly wrong, I was dozing) rioting in Britain on a widespread scale happens when public spending falls to or below 3% of GDP. So that seems to be the best way of preventing riots. More public spending



It is this article:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/16/austerity-programmes-cause-riots

warning this article is liable to lead PK frothing at the mouth.

In a recent study, we focused on the link between austerity measures and unrest. We analysed a large number of countries, over almost a century, to unearth some empirical regularities. In two studies, we analysed unrest in 28 European countries from 1919 to 2009, and in 11 Latin American countries since 1937. What we found is a clear and positive statistical association between expenditure cuts and the level of unrest.
To construct our measure of unrest, we looked at five indicators: riots, anti-government demonstrations, general strikes, political assassinations, and attempted revolutions. In a typical year and country, there are about 1.5 incidents of this type. The more you cut, the more incidents you get. By the time austerity measures hit 3% or more, the number of incidents has doubled. Interestingly, for the UK, the pattern is even stronger: for every percentage point of cut-backs, instability surges by more than it does on average in the rest of the countries. Importantly, these effects are in addition to the well-known relationship between lower growth (associated with more unemployment) and higher instability.
While the pattern holds throughout our sample, the relationship is not deterministic – the chance of unrest goes up as governments retrench, but it is not guaranteed. Many incidents, such as police brutality, as in the case of Rodney King in LA, or the killing of Mark Duggan in London, can provide the spark that leads to a conflagration. One reason why times of austerity could create the right environment for massive unrest is, in our view, that cut-backs usually hit some parts of the society disproportionately more than others


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## Treacle Toes (Aug 19, 2011)

Corax said:


> They're not activists.



In _your_ world.


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## Gramsci (Aug 19, 2011)

Two practical suggestions

That when the police shoot someone they are upfront with the local community and talk to the family involved. 

Also the IPCC are a waste of space and need replacing.

What kicked off this rioting was the police shooting of a man in unclear circumstances. As was the case with several of the riots in the 80s


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## Gramsci (Aug 19, 2011)

pk said:


> No dear, I type out knee-jerk opinions in here to break the fluffy little veil of circle-jerk. The complexity of this situation will never be addressed by cowardly skirting around the fundamental issues that are behind this trouble. I suppose I hope for some form of coherent and energised action from what was once a pretty healthy movement, with all the protest stuff.
> I'm left wanting, it doesn't warrant offering much more here than a knee-jerk opinion just to try and help people understand how the likely vast majority actually sees it. It's clearly making people uncomfortable. Bless.



I take it pk you take same view on previous riots. As Ive noticed "progressive" politicians like Chuka and Reed saying that it was different in 81.

Even though in the case of Chuka he was 6 when the 81 riot happened.


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## Mrs Magpie (Aug 19, 2011)

No point in asking pk. He's been permabanned.


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## Gramsci (Aug 19, 2011)

Bob said:


> In this thread we contribute practical ideas for stopping any further destruction in Brixton.
> 
> Here's my idea, based on behavioural psychology:
> Riots are caused by:
> ...



So your practical idea is that we should all go out and tell them that this is wrong? What behavioural psychology are you using?

article by 2 academics on crowd psychology here:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/19/riots-psychology-crowds

What they say is that there are two ways to look at crowd psychology. Its either mindless and therefore the response is more state repression and blaming parenting or its due to underlying issues in society that need to be understood.

So a practical way to stop further destruction is to find out the underlying problems and remedy them. As was done with the Scarman report.

So the accusation of mindlessness, the lazy language of the "mob", and the use of discredited deindividuation theories, is not just wrong. It is positively dangerous. It stops us paying attention to what crowd actions tells us about how rioters understand their society. It stops us from addressing how these understandings come about. It dooms us to more disaffection, more division and more violence.


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## Emet (Aug 21, 2011)

Scrap the drug laws. Making recreational drugs normal items of commerce might make for less friction between police and youth on estates. It would presumably sap the power of gangs that derive income from dealing drugs, or provide protection for those that do.


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## leanderman (Aug 21, 2011)

Emet said:


> Scrap the drug laws. Making recreational drugs normal items of commerce might make for less friction between police and youth on estates. It would presumably sap the power of gangs that derive income from dealing drugs, or provide protection for those that do.



Exactly. Things could not be any worse under legalisation.

Criminals might find something other than drugs to trade in. But I can't think what


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## Winot (Aug 21, 2011)

leanderman said:


> Exactly. Things could not be any worse under legalisation.
> 
> Criminals might find something other than drugs to trade in. But I can't think what



2010 Bordeaux.


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## Emet (Aug 22, 2011)

Winot said:


> 2010 Bordeaux.


Please explain.


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## Emet (Aug 22, 2011)

Winot said:


> 2010 Bordeaux.


Sorry, forgot they grow the vine down that way.


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## leanderman (Aug 22, 2011)

Winot said:


> 2010 Bordeaux.



haha! first wine joke on this site?


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## Emet (Aug 23, 2011)

leanderman said:


> Exactly. Things could not be any worse under legalisation.
> 
> Criminals might find something other than drugs to trade in. But I can't think what


There's always the good old fashioned protection racket.


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