# Supernanny



## Corky (Aug 18, 2005)

OMG, did anyone see this last night?  I'm off to get sterilised now.


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## Buddy Bradley (Aug 18, 2005)

Heh. 

We've got three girls, and my wife spent the whole programme going "ours are _not_ going to behave like that!"  Next weeks looks good too - another three girls, bit closer in age to our kids.

It always amazes me how the parents can act so surprised that it's their behaviour that is influencing the way their kids are - like, hello? They weren't just born that way...


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## Random One (Aug 18, 2005)

Corky said:
			
		

> OMG, did anyone see this last night?  I'm off to get sterilised now.


  LMAO


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## onenameshelley (Aug 18, 2005)

Watched this last night, spent the whole time going  

But it was funny when gabrielle was told she couldnt have any friends over and her response was "i dont care i hate all my friends anyway" fucking pissed myself.

Very clever children, not so great parents but at least it all worked out for the best.


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## etnea (Aug 18, 2005)

Yep, that put my recent cluckiness firmly back in its place...


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## Relahni (Aug 18, 2005)

My feelings about the programme.

1) will these kids be bullied from now on?

There is no real tips on how to deal with problem kids - most of the stuff is pretty obvious.

Things like bribe your kids with a chart - gold stars etc.....

Stay calm.

Hardly rocket science.


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## moomoo (Aug 18, 2005)

Well I thought my 3 were naughty until I watched this!

Off to polish their halos now!


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## madzone (Aug 18, 2005)

onenameshelley said:
			
		

> Very clever children, not so great parents




I thought the parents were ok. If the girl had bitten me I'd have twatted her.


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## Buddy Bradley (Aug 18, 2005)

madzone said:
			
		

> I thought the parents were ok. If the girl had bitten me I'd have twatted her.


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## Relahni (Aug 18, 2005)

"You won't see your friends for a week".

"That's alright I hate my friends".

Genius!


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## madzone (Aug 18, 2005)

Buddy Bradley said:
			
		

>


Your point?
Do you have kids? Are they little angels? Were you born with The Encyclopaedia of Good Parenting stuffed up your arse?


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## Buddy Bradley (Aug 18, 2005)

madzone said:
			
		

> Your point?
> Do you have kids? Are they little angels? Were you born with The Encyclopaedia of Good Parenting stuffed up your arse?


Yes, yes, and not as far as I know.

But even if my children did play up I wouldn't be advocating "twatting" them - you do know you're supposed to be the responsible, grown-up side of the relationship..?


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## madzone (Aug 18, 2005)

Buddy Bradley said:
			
		

> Yes, yes, and not as far as I know.
> 
> But even if my children did play up I wouldn't be advocating "twatting" them - you do know you're supposed to be the responsible, grown-up side of the relationship..?


Are you one of these wholemeal NCT types who take everything people say deadly seriously and teach their children the proper words for their genitals by the time they're 4 months old? 
Is there anyone in your house called Portia?


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## Little_Alice (Aug 18, 2005)

Corky said:
			
		

> I'm off to get sterilised now.



Me too!


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## Relahni (Aug 18, 2005)

madzone said:
			
		

> Are you one of these wholemeal NCT types who take everything people say deadly seriously and teach their children the proper words for their genitals by the time they're 4 months old?
> Is there anyone in your house called Portia?



btw
I thought your twat her comment was funny......


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## madzone (Aug 18, 2005)

Relahni said:
			
		

> btw
> I thought your twat her comment was funny......


It _was_ tongue in cheek. I'm not in the habit of twatting chilcren although I did think that supernannies reaction may have been somewhat different if it was a) her own child b) off camera


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## lyra_k (Aug 18, 2005)

There's a couple of similar TV progs over here, and on one of them there was a HEEEEEUUUUUGGGGEEE bag of sweets in the cupboard that the 4 boys could just help themselves to anytime they wanted, and they were just running wild on a constant sugar high (duh!).  And the parents acted all surprised when the nanny pointed this out.    

I don't really like the *commando parenting* that these nannies tend to impose when they come to sort things out, but I suppose when things have been allowed to get as bad as they are for people to be involved in these programmes, it might be all that works. 

Buddy - how are the babbas?


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## onenameshelley (Aug 18, 2005)

madzone said:
			
		

> It _was_ tongue in cheek. I'm not in the habit of twatting chilcren although I did think that supernannies reaction may have been somewhat different if it was a) her own child b) off camera




Oh course it would, i was actually saying to etnea that i would have kicked that kids arse if spoke to me like that, no fucking way would my child be allowed to behave like that. You have to wonder if little megan has any friends at school, who would want to be mates with a screaming/biting/pinching little girl like that?


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## lizzieloo (Aug 18, 2005)

madzone said:
			
		

> Are you one of these wholemeal NCT types who take everything people say deadly seriously and teach their children the proper words for their genitals by the time they're 4 months old?
> Is there anyone in your house called Portia?



My next door neighbour's kid is called Portia.

Mind you there are Gibraltarian.


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## girasol (Aug 18, 2005)

Relahni said:
			
		

> Things like bribe your kids with a chart - gold stars etc.....



I think the whole bribery thing is terribly flawed.  When I was growing up I did things because they were the things I had to do, i.e. my responsabilities, not because I was getting something at the end of it, because I didn't.  I got gifts but they were never attached to certain terms & conditions.

Later on a couple of my friends were offered cars if they passed their exams (A level equivalent), and they all seemed to spend their lives expecting something in exchange for their efforts (efforts which were for their own benefit anyway!)

Even with bribery one of them failed her exams and was very upset because she didn't get the car, which, even at the tender age of 16, felt all wrong to me...


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## Buddy Bradley (Aug 18, 2005)

madzone said:
			
		

> Are you one of these wholemeal NCT types who take everything people say deadly seriously and teach their children the proper words for their genitals by the time they're 4 months old?


Are you one of those parents who think that the rules of acceptable behaviour only apply to their children and not to them? Can you not see the hypocrisy in statements like this:



			
				onenameshelley said:
			
		

> i would have kicked that kids arse if spoke to me like that, no fucking way would my child be allowed to behave like that


Uh - but you're _allowed_ to "kick [your] kids arse", are you?

Children are people too, not little slaves to be pushed around and have random rules imposed upon them by adults. My kids live by the same rules I do - and if they're not allowed to hit people, that means I'm not either.

Lyra - they're all great, thanks. Eldest just turned 3 last week.


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## madzone (Aug 18, 2005)

Buddy Bradley said:
			
		

> Are you one of those parents who think that the rules of acceptable behaviour only apply to their children and not to them? Can you not see the hypocrisy in statements like this:
> 
> Uh - but you're _allowed_ to "kick [your] kids arse", are you?
> 
> ...


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## waterloowelshy (Aug 18, 2005)

Does anyone else find supernanny herself strangely arousing by the way?  
I think its something to do with tellings off!


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## dozzer (Aug 18, 2005)

Buddy Bradley said:
			
		

> and if they're not allowed to hit people, that means I'm not either.



I hope you're allowed to drink!!


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## madzone (Aug 18, 2005)

waterloowelshy said:
			
		

> Does anyone else find supernanny herself strangely arousing by the way?
> I think its something to do with tellings off!


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## lyra_k (Aug 18, 2005)

Buddy Bradley said:
			
		

> Children are people too, not little slaves to be pushed around and have random rules imposed upon them by adults. My kids live by the same rules I do - and if they're not allowed to hit people, that means I'm not either.



I don't want to get into a big fight with anyone, and I'm quite scared of the   smiley (    ), but I _totally_ agree about the hypocrisy and stupidity of using violence to teach your kids that violence is not OK.


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## madzone (Aug 18, 2005)

lyra_kitten said:
			
		

> I don't want to get into a big fight with anyone, and I'm quite scared of the   smiley (    ), but I _totally_ agree about the hypocrisy and stupidity of using violence to teach your kids that violence is not OK.


  
There you go, it's not so scary 

I don't think anyone on this thread is advocating violence towards children. An off the cuff, tounge in cheek remark got taken and blown out of all proportion by the children are just mini people brigade. 
My mother used to batter me with a dead badger and it never did me any harm.


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## hotvans (Aug 18, 2005)

i spent the whole programme shouting at the TV - that woman had the patience of a saint - I would have killed that little girl and then called the cops to come get me - no way could I have dealt with it. I don't agree with smacking kids but letting a kid bite you is frankly ridiculous - they don't learn that off their parents and its totally out of order - she was walking all over them


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## Buddy Bradley (Aug 18, 2005)

hotvans said:
			
		

> letting a kid bite you is frankly ridiculous - they don't learn that off their parents


Not directly, but they can learn that it is okay to use whatever physical advantage you have to 'win' a fight - if adults routinely use their greater strength to defeat their children, the child will decide that they are entitled to bite/scratch/whatever to even the odds.


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## madzone (Aug 18, 2005)

hotvans said:
			
		

> letting a kid bite you is frankly ridiculous - they don't learn that off their parents


Exactly! So the argument of teaching kids violence by being violent towards them is blown out of the water. There was no evidence that she had ever had so much as a tapped backside in her entire 8 or 9 years yet she would kick, bite, smack and puch anyone she flet like attacking. When a kid feels ok about attacking visotors to the house something is deeply amiss. Maybe if she'd had a smacked arse the fist time she did it she wouldn't have developed such behavioural problems? Who knows.


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## madzone (Aug 18, 2005)

Buddy Bradley said:
			
		

> Not directly, but they can learn that it is okay to use whatever physical advantage you have to 'win' a fight - if adults routinely use their greater strength to defeat their children, the child will decide that they are entitled to bite/scratch/whatever to even the odds.


But that couple didn't smack their kids - so your arguemnt is frankly ....well..... shite


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## lizzieloo (Aug 18, 2005)

That kid was so upset and angry

I thought the 'thought box' was a brilliant idea


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## lyra_k (Aug 18, 2005)

Buddy Bradley said:
			
		

> Not directly, but they can learn that it is okay to use whatever physical advantage you have to 'win' a fight - if adults routinely use their greater strength to defeat their children, the child will decide that they are entitled to bite/scratch/whatever to even the odds.



What cemented my vague desire not to smack the sproglet was the one time that I did.     I was soooooo fucking irritated by her throwing food off her high chair tray a few months ago that I slapped her little hand (she would have been about 15 months), and the next day she did the same thing again, watching me with the weirdest expression on her face, then as soon as she'd done it, she slapped her _own_ hand.  I felt like such a piece of shit. 

She'll never be slapped again, and I have to say that when she plays with other kids her own age (I take her to quite a lot of playgroups and stuff), it's VERY noticeable that the kids who get their bums swatted regularly by their parents are the same ones that go around slapping and hitting the other kids.


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## Asriel (Aug 18, 2005)

If I'd ever spoken to my mum like that, I would NOT be here to tell the tale, thats for sure.


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## wtfftw (Aug 18, 2005)

"Dont pinch your sister!"
"I DIDNT! I HIT HER".

HAHAH.   

I've missed supernanny and no, I have no plans to have children.


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## onenameshelley (Aug 18, 2005)

Buddy Bradley said:
			
		

> Are you one of those parents who think that the rules of acceptable behaviour only apply to their children and not to them? Can you not see the hypocrisy in statements like this:
> 
> Uh - but you're _allowed_ to "kick [your] kids arse", are you?
> 
> Children are people too, not little slaves to be pushed around and have random rules imposed upon them by adults. My kids live by the same rules I do - and if they're not allowed to hit people, that means I'm not either.




Its a turn of phrase by the way, but yes i would have smacked them on the back of the legs just like I was when i did things that were wrong.


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## Relahni (Aug 18, 2005)

spare the rod and spoil the child.

That older girl was Verucca Salts.


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## Asriel (Aug 18, 2005)

Agreed.


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## madzone (Aug 18, 2005)

lyra_kitten said:
			
		

> What cemented my vague desire not to smack the sproglet was the one time that I did.     I was soooooo fucking irritated by her throwing food off her high chair tray a few months ago that I slapped her little hand (she would have been about 15 months), and the next day she did the same thing again, watching me with the weirdest expression on her face, then as soon as she'd done it, she slapped her _own_ hand.  I felt like such a piece of shit.
> 
> She'll never be slapped again, and I have to say that when she plays with other kids her own age (I take her to quite a lot of playgroups and stuff), it's VERY noticeable that the kids who get their bums swatted regularly by their parents are the same ones that go around slapping and hitting the other kids.




I'm afraid I disagree completely Lyra. Yes there are children who don't hit other children but IMO it has no bearring on whether they have been smacked themselves or not. Some of the worst behaved children I have had in my house come from 'hippy' families who try to talk to their children as if they're adults and advocate the no smacking way of parenting. They generally have no respect for my house or my childrens toys. 
It is incredibly rarely that my mids get smacked but if they bit me I would smack them. If somebody in the pub bit me I'd deck the fucker.


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## lyra_k (Aug 18, 2005)

madzone said:
			
		

> I'm afraid I disagree completely Lyra. Yes there are children who don't hit other children but IMO it has no bearring on whether they have been smacked themselves or not. Some of the worst behaved children I have had in my house come from 'hippy' families who try to talk to their children as if they're adults and advocate the no smacking way of parenting. They generally have no respect for my house or my childrens toys.
> It is incredibly rarely that my mids get smacked but if they bit me I would smack them. If somebody in the pub bit me I'd deck the fucker.



I'm not asking/expecting you to agree or disagree with my personal anti-smacking sentiments - it's a very personal thing.

However, I don't see how you can *completely disagree* with something that was simply a factual observation from my own experience, just as I can't *completely disagree* with your own factual observation from YOUR experience.  I'm quite sure that they're both true, and that just demonstrates that it's not a B&W issue with a nice neat right or wrong.

I think that for some people (like those you describe), no smacking = no discipline, and I know there are some parents who take the "children are little people with rights" things to a ridiculous extreme, and completely fail to provide any boundaries or guidance, and I agree 100% that that approach MAY create little monsters.

Personally, no smacking just means that.  I won't hit my child (again), but I'm also very committed to providing boundaries and using alternative forms of discipline, because from my own observation that is what works best.  People who take that approach (in my experience) take a huge amount of interest and have a huge commitment to child-rearing, while to me smacking is a kind of lazy quick-fix which might well work in the short-term, but which doesn't actually teach the child anything that you would want to be teaching them, although it might be a quickler and easier way of shutting them up in the short term.


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## AllStarMe (Aug 18, 2005)

onenameshelley said:
			
		

> You have to wonder if little megan has any friends at school, who would want to be mates with a screaming/biting/pinching little girl like that?


I thought that! She was a nasty little madam! 
It amazed/shocked me the way she spoke to her parents and Supernanny for that matter. 
As much as I was awful to my Mum when i was growing up Id NEVER spoke to a stranger like that EVER!
The thought box was a fabulous idea though. Im glad it turned out ok though, she was actually a really sweet kid when you got rid of her temper! Seeing them do the play at the end was adorable!


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## Buddy Bradley (Aug 18, 2005)

madzone said:
			
		

> But that couple didn't smack their kids - so your arguemnt is frankly ....well..... shite


Sorry, didn't realise that you knew the couple involved personally and had been present throughout the upbringing of their children...


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## madzone (Aug 18, 2005)

Buddy Bradley said:
			
		

> Sorry, didn't realise that you knew the couple involved personally and had been present throughout the upbringing of their children...


It was patently obvious that they didn't smack their children. Discipline was none existent.


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## madzone (Aug 18, 2005)

lyra_kitten said:
			
		

> I'm quite sure that they're both true, and that just demonstrates that it's not a B&W issue with a nice neat right or wrong.


Quite. 
Which is why my hackels were raised by the generally smug tone at the beginning of this thread. Oh those awful parents, I wouldn't do it like that blah blah blah. I assume that none of the people criticising the parents have had to deal with a child like Satania - sorry Megan on a  daily basis.


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## Kidda (Aug 18, 2005)

madzone said:
			
		

> Exactly! So the argument of teaching kids violence by being violent towards them is blown out of the water. There was no evidence that she had ever had so much as a tapped backside in her entire 8 or 9 years yet she would kick, bite, smack and puch anyone she flet like attacking. When a kid feels ok about attacking visotors to the house something is deeply amiss. Maybe if she'd had a smacked arse the fist time she did it she wouldn't have developed such behavioural problems? Who knows.



surely the issue is as a parent its your job to show the kid that smacking, biting or punching someone else isnt acceptable behaviour

maybe if the parents had set down ground rules and stuck to them the kids wouldnt be so out of control.

when i was growing up, we didnt need to be hit, just the thought of pissing my mom off was scary enough.

boundaries need to be set if the kids cross those boundaries they should be disciplined. There are many ways to do that than to just ''twat'' them one.


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## lyra_k (Aug 18, 2005)

madzone said:
			
		

> I assume that none of the people criticising the parents have had to deal with a child like Satania - sorry Megan on a  daily basis.



But Megan wasn't parachuted into this family as a little demon.  She was, I assume, born as a baby without any particular discipline problems, and then created, at least in part (a large part, I would argue) by how her parents failed to bother instilling any discipline in her. 

I don't know anybody (and I do know a lot of parents of children of all ages, including my brother who has 4   ) who takes parenting seriously and devotes a lot of time and energy to it, who has young children (pre-peer-pressure) with serious behaviour issues.


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## Buddy Bradley (Aug 18, 2005)

madzone said:
			
		

> It was patently obvious that they didn't smack their children. Discipline was none existent.


Ah, so smacking = discipline. Right. 

Why is it that parents who have problems controlling their children always like to talk about "discipline"? They're children, for Christ's sake, not army recruits!

My children receive lots of *love*, lots of *attention* and as much *information* as I judge appropriate; and they seem to be turning out okay.


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## madzone (Aug 18, 2005)

Buddy Bradley said:
			
		

> Ah, so smacking = discipline. Right.
> 
> Why is it that parents who have problems controlling their children always like to talk about "discipline"? They're children, for Christ's sake, not army recruits!
> 
> My children receive lots of *love*, lots of *attention* and as much *information* as I judge appropriate; and they seem to be turning out okay.


Well aren't you the perfect parent? Perhaps you could write a little book on it to make everyone else feel inferior. You said your eldest child is 3. Wow, 3 years of parenting, what an expert. Do you work? Does your partner stay at home to care for the children? How are you going to feel when your eldest turns 18 and you find out your wife has only got through it on gin and valium?


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## madzone (Aug 18, 2005)

lyra_kitten said:
			
		

> But Megan wasn't parachuted into this family as a little demon.  She was, I assume, born as a baby without any particular discipline problems, and then created, at least in part (a large part, I would argue) by how her parents failed to bother instilling any discipline in her.
> 
> I don't know anybody (and I do know a lot of parents of children of all ages, including my brother who has 4   ) who takes parenting seriously and devotes a lot of time and energy to it, who has young children (pre-peer-pressure) with serious behaviour issues.



No she wasn't parachuted in   But I'm equally sure that her mother wasn't simply a 'bad' parent. She was a woman struggling with 3 children under the age of 10 while her husabnd was out at work. It's an organic process and one which I'm sure the mother was doing her best to address within her given resources.
All this criticism of the mother stinks IMO. You seem to be suggesting that people whose children develop behavioural issues don't devote time and energy to it or even take it seriously as a role. A bit of an assumption don't you think?


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## Barking_Mad (Aug 18, 2005)

Am I the only one who fins Supernanny alluringly attractive? I think its the glasses


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## madzone (Aug 18, 2005)

Barking_Mad said:
			
		

> Am I the only one who fins Supernanny alluringly attractive? I think its the glasses


No, waterloowelshy has already admitted he finds the discipline arousing


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## Barking_Mad (Aug 18, 2005)

On a more serious point I do think it's good that she sorts out the most 'nasty' of children with no physical violence whatsoever. Just goes to show that its possible to be 'fluffy yet firm' with kids and still get them to behave


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## Barking_Mad (Aug 18, 2005)

madzone said:
			
		

> No, waterloowelshy has already admitted he finds the discipline arousing



hah not sure its the discipline I like  Think its just the control she has haha! I'd be a good boy though


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## madzone (Aug 18, 2005)

Barking_Mad said:
			
		

> On a more serious point I do think it's good that she sorts out the most 'nasty' of children with no physical violence whatsoever. Just goes to show that its possible to be 'fluffy yet firm' with kids and still get them to behave


I think the main point is that she's an outsider. That is the element I feel has the most impact.


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## _angel_ (Aug 18, 2005)

Some children _are_ harder work than others and it's not always the parents fault. 

And whilst I'd like supernanny to sort out autistic kids no way would I tolerate either of my two biting me. (They both have: eldest one meant it , youngest one didn't)

Don't like smacking but have had to slap eldest(8) (just once btw) occasionally like, when he started kicking and stuff around the china department of Allders   . He doesn't understand verbal reasoning.

Slapping a younger kid - no.


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## Termite Man (Aug 18, 2005)

I would only anbvocate smacking achild if they have hit another kid ! Teach them that the actions they carry out have consequnces and maybe they will think before acting . Of course I'm not a parent so what do I know !


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## sheothebudworths (Aug 18, 2005)

Savage Henry said:
			
		

> I would only anbvocate smacking achild if they have hit another kid ! Teach them that the actions they carry out have consequnces and maybe they will think before acting .






The consequences of which can generally be got over just as well/better by pointing out to your child that they have hurt and _upset_ another child (it really doesn't make sense to a child to be told that smacking is wrong, when they've just received a smack back).





			
				madzone said:
			
		

> Yes there are children who don't hit other children but IMO it has no bearring on whether they have been smacked themselves or not.




And ofcourse that works equally the other way around.  

So what's the point in smacking them other than getting out some of your own rage?


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## Buddy Bradley (Aug 18, 2005)

madzone said:
			
		

> Well aren't you the perfect parent? Perhaps you could write a little book on it to make everyone else feel inferior. You said your eldest child is 3. Wow, 3 years of parenting, what an expert. Do you work? Does your partner stay at home to care for the children? How are you going to feel when your eldest turns 18 and you find out your wife has only got through it on gin and valium?


Fuck off with your ad hominem attacks - if you haven't the intelligence to defend your point of view, just have the good grace to admit defeat.

And are you now suggesting that only stay-at-home mothers have a right to an opinion on parenting? How thoroughly modern of you...   Yes I work, and my wife works in the evenings and weekends. We share the responsibility for bringing up our children, which - apparently anathema to you - includes not deliberately hurting them.


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## Buddy Bradley (Aug 18, 2005)

Savage Henry said:
			
		

> I would only anbvocate smacking achild if they have hit another kid ! Teach them that the actions they carry out have consequnces and maybe they will think before acting


All that will teach them is not to get caught next time. How on earth does hitting a child teach that child that hitting is bad?


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## madzone (Aug 18, 2005)

Buddy Bradley said:
			
		

> Fuck off with your ad hominem attacks - if you haven't the intelligence to defend your point of view, just have the good grace to admit defeat.
> 
> And are you now suggesting that only stay-at-home mothers have a right to an opinion on parenting? How thoroughly modern of you...   Yes I work, and my wife works in the evenings and weekends. We share the responsibility for bringing up our children, which - apparently anathema to you - includes not deliberately hurting them.




No, I'm suggesting you're a sanctimonious pillock who has rose tinted testacles.


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## madzone (Aug 18, 2005)

Buddy Bradley said:
			
		

> All that will teach them is not to get caught next time. How on earth does hitting a child teach that child that hitting is bad?


By showing them what it feels like.


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## madzone (Aug 18, 2005)

sheothebudworths said:
			
		

> And ofcourse that works equally the other way around.



Yeeeees, so you just prove my point


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## peppery (Aug 18, 2005)

I though yesterdays program was excellent. How to deal with an ill disciplined child without resorting to violence.

I'll never hit my boy, you don't need to teach them to use violence. I got hit by my parents all the time, it never stopped me, what stopped me was the thought that I may have been upsetting them.


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## madzone (Aug 18, 2005)

Ok - questrion to all the wholemeal meal parents/ Your 6 year old goes up to another child and pokes himin the eye with a stick. What do you do? Explain to him that you mustn't  poke Johnny in the eye with a tick becaue he might not be able to see again and he might not be able to master the Alexander techinique or do Tai Chi when he's older and that may really upset him?


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## Buddy Bradley (Aug 18, 2005)

madzone said:
			
		

> By showing them what it feels like.


By showing them that it's okay to hit other people? I pity your children.


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## Buddy Bradley (Aug 18, 2005)

madzone said:
			
		

> Ok - questrion to all the wholemeal meal parents/ Your 6 year old goes up to another child and pokes himin the eye with a stick. What do you do? Explain to him that you mustn't  poke Johnny in the eye with a tick becaue he might not be able to see again and he might not be able to master the Alexander techinique or do Tai Chi when he's older and that may really upset him?


Presumably you are inferring that the only way to counter that sort of behaviour is to administer a sound thrashing, because two injured children are better than one?


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## madzone (Aug 18, 2005)

Buddy Bradley said:
			
		

> By showing them that it's okay to hit other people? I pity your children.


And I pity yours - so we're quits eh? I haven't mentioned anyhting about your kids up till now mate so why don't you fuck off and stick your pompous head up your middle class arse.

I also haven't said that I hit my kids. I think you're in denial personally, you paint a rosy picture becasue the reality isn't so hot.


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## madzone (Aug 18, 2005)

Buddy Bradley said:
			
		

> Presumably you are inferring that the only way to counter that sort of behaviour is to administer a sound thrashing, because two injured children are better than one?


Well, I was thinking more of a stint up a chimney.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Aug 18, 2005)

madzone said:
			
		

> By showing them what it feels like.



Children who are routinely exposed to corporal punishment at home, are more likely to hit their children and wives in later years.


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## Buddy Bradley (Aug 18, 2005)

madzone said:
			
		

> pompous head up your middle class arse.


Pot, kettle, black.

And I didn't say I pitied your kids because you hit them - I pity them for having you as a mother.


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## Buddy Bradley (Aug 18, 2005)

madzone said:
			
		

> Well, I was thinking more of a stint up a chimney.


Can't answer the question yourself, then? Can't say I'm surprised.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Aug 18, 2005)

madzone said:
			
		

> Ok - questrion to all the wholemeal meal parents/ Your 6 year old goes up to another child and pokes himin the eye with a stick. What do you do? Explain to him that you mustn't  poke Johnny in the eye with a tick becaue he might not be able to see again and he might not be able to master the Alexander techinique or do Tai Chi when he's older and that may really upset him?



I'd take him/her inside, i.e. away from the fun of playing. I'd sit the kid in their room and explain why what they did was wrong. Then they'd stay in the room for a bit to think about it, and about the fact that they'd just lost tv/videogames/outings/what have you, for some specified period of time.

Smacking the kid's ass will definitely sting for a few minutes, but then it's gone. What's left is a feeling of rage and impotence that a larger human being is able to best them like that, and what builds is a desire to get even: if not with you, then with other substitutes for you. Like that wife in future years.

They actually get more worked up about losing tv or other privileges for a couple of nights. But you have to actually go through with it.


----------



## madzone (Aug 18, 2005)

Buddy Bradley said:
			
		

> Pot, kettle, black.
> 
> And I didn't say I pitied your kids because you hit them - I pity them for having you as a mother.


I'm not middle class. We have an outside toilet.


----------



## madzone (Aug 18, 2005)

Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> I'd take him/her inside, i.e. away from the fun of playing. I'd sit the kid in their room and explain why what they did was wrong. Then they'd stay in the room for a bit to think about it, and about the fact that they'd just lost tv/videogames/outings/what have you, for some specified period of time.
> 
> Smacking the kid's ass will definitely sting for a few minutes, but then it's gone. What's left is a feeling of rage and impotence that a larger human being is able to best them like that, and what builds is a desire to get even: if not with you, then with other substitutes for you. Like that wife in future years.
> 
> They actually get more worked up about losing tv or other privileges for a couple of nights. But you have to actually go through with it.



So, let's go back to the times when it was not only acceptable to smack a child but expected. Are you saying that entire generations of poeple grew up to eb violent towards their children and routinely beat their wives?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Aug 18, 2005)

madzone said:
			
		

> So, let's go back to the times when it was not only acceptable to smack a child but expected. Are you saying that entire generations of poeple grew up to eb violent towards their children and routinely beat their wives?



Don't you think it might be a factor in the widespread spousal abuse that blights our society, and that is only being addressed in the past couple of decades?


----------



## madzone (Aug 18, 2005)

Actually, I can't be arsed with this thread any more. I'm no more an advocate for smacking children than anyone else. However, I hope that the do gooder, liberal pinko lefties on this thread realise how fucking arrogant they sound when they criticise other people's parenting methods in such a sanctimonious way.


----------



## madzone (Aug 18, 2005)

Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> Don't you think it might be a factor in the widespread spousal abuse that blights our society, and that is only being addressed in the past couple of decades?


Can you provide any statistics for that Johnny? As far as I'm aware the rates of domestic violence haven't changed overly much. Just because something is being addressed doesn't mean the rates are dropping. And what about the rates of violent crime? I assume they will have gone down in the last couple of decades in direct relation to the societal pressure not to smack?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Aug 18, 2005)

You learn what you're taught.

You learn what it's like to be in  or have a family, when you're a kid in your own family.

If you grow up seeing that dad tends to solve family disputes with his fists, then you'd think that this was normal.

Yes, you might later go to university and learn that hitting your wife is wrong, but when emotions run high in some family dispute, I'd expect that the person with violence in his/her background might be more likely to fall back on the old learning.


----------



## madzone (Aug 18, 2005)

Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> You learn what you're taught.
> 
> You learn what it's like to be in  or have a family, when you're a kid in your own family.
> 
> ...



Links?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Aug 18, 2005)

madzone said:
			
		

> Actually, I can't be arsed with this thread any more. I'm no more an advocate for smacking children than anyone else. However, I hope that the do gooder, liberal pinko lefties on this thread realise how fucking arrogant they sound when they criticise other people's parenting methods in such a sanctimonious way.



I don't think hitting kids is a good idea, and I think that using corporal punishment as a standard part of your discipline repertoire, is a downright bad idea, and I don't mind saying so.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Aug 18, 2005)

madzone said:
			
		

> Links?




I can dig them up, but are you seriously disputing that children exposed to violence in the home at an early age, will have a greater disposition to using violence when they grow up?


----------



## madzone (Aug 18, 2005)

Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> I don't think hitting kids is a good idea, and I think that using corporal punishment as a standard part of your discipline repertoire, is a downright bad idea, and I don't mind saying so.


So do I, but I don't routinely condemn people who have hit the end of their tether or who haven't the resources in the first place. This thread has shown some real superior, snotty attitudes towards people  who are struggling with parenting for one reason or another and it leaves a really bad taste.
Smug
Sanctimoinous
Superior
Short sighted
Wank


----------



## madzone (Aug 18, 2005)

Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> I can dig them up, but are you seriously disputing that children exposed to violence in the home at an early age, will have a greater disposition to using violence when they grow up?


I'd like to see evidence to back it up. People aren't always such sheep that they blindly apply what happened to them to their own children. IME people strive to make sure their children aren't exposed to any trauma that they were (sometimes throwing the baby out with the bath water but that's another thread)


----------



## peppery (Aug 18, 2005)

Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> You learn what you're taught.
> 
> You learn what it's like to be in  or have a family, when you're a kid in your own family.
> 
> ...



You're spot on with your analysis there. I don't want my boy to think violence is a tool that gets results.


----------



## LilMissHissyFit (Aug 18, 2005)

Hahahaha ALL my kids were lovely at three, as are most of my friends three year olds  
Until you have an older child I don't think you have the first idea about how to parent an older child. When they do get older and their behaviour changes due to hormones, puberty etc ( and it can and does start as young as 9) and just pushing boundaries becuase their mates are allowed to do such and such and all of a sudden they realise the world isnt a safe easy place and it isnt fair It is a BLOODY NIGHTMARE.
I suggest anyone with children smaller than around 8 or 9 doesnt even start to try to comment or criticise anyone elses parenting becuase believe me hold on to yur hats people. A whole lot changes when the tricks that work when they are under 5 dont work any more and all of a sudden hard discipline means just that, hard bloody work for the parents and unfortunately sometimes that does mean Dragging them up the stairs physically to put them in their rooms or to stop them doing something they want to or make them do something they don't want to do( like go to bed when said 10 year old is having a tantum and has decided lying on the living room floor screaming blue murder is the best plan of action)


----------



## madzone (Aug 18, 2005)

LilMissHissyFit said:
			
		

> Hahahaha ALL my kids were lovely at three, as are most of my friends three year olds
> Until you have an older child I don't think you have the first idea about how to parent an older child. When they do get older and their behaviour changes due to hormones, puberty etc ( and it can and does start as young as 9) and just pushing boundaries becuase their mates are allowed to do such and such and all of a sudden they realise the world isnt a safe easy place and it isnt fair It is a BLOODY NIGHTMARE.
> I suggest anyone with children smaller than around 8 or 9 doesnt even start to try to comment or criticise anyone elses parenting becuase believe me hold on to yur hats people. A whole lot changes when the tricks that work when they are under 5 dont work any more and all of a sudden hard discipline means just that, hard bloody work for the parents and unfortunately sometimes that does mean Dragging them up the stairs physically to put them in their rooms or to stop them doing something they want to or make them do something they don't want to do( like go to bed when said 10 year old is having a tantum and has decided lying on the living room floor screaming blue murder is the best plan of action)



Amen to that.


----------



## Barking_Mad (Aug 18, 2005)

Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> I'd take him/her inside, i.e. away from the fun of playing. I'd sit the kid in their room and explain why what they did was wrong. Then they'd stay in the room for a bit to think about it, and about the fact that they'd just lost tv/videogames/outings/what have you, for some specified period of time.
> 
> Smacking the kid's ass will definitely sting for a few minutes, but then it's gone. What's left is a feeling of rage and impotence that a larger human being is able to best them like that, and what builds is a desire to get even: if not with you, then with other substitutes for you. Like that wife in future years.
> 
> They actually get more worked up about losing tv or other privileges for a couple of nights. But you have to actually go through with it.



Shame you dont apply that type of logic to all your posts.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Aug 18, 2005)

Barking_Mad said:
			
		

> Shame you dont apply that type of logic to all your posts.



Why: am I agreeing with you on this thread?


----------



## Buddy Bradley (Aug 18, 2005)

madzone said:
			
		

> So do I, but I don't routinely condemn people who have hit the end of their tether or who haven't the resources in the first place.


And you call me a "liberal pinko leftie"? You just want to _understand_ the _motivations_ behind people hitting their children, presumably...


----------



## toggle (Aug 18, 2005)

LilMissHissyFit said:
			
		

> Hahahaha ALL my kids were lovely at three, as are most of my friends three year olds
> Until you have an older child I don't think you have the first idea about how to parent an older child. When they do get older and their behaviour changes due to hormones, puberty etc ( and it can and does start as young as 9) and just pushing boundaries becuase their mates are allowed to do such and such and all of a sudden they realise the world isnt a safe easy place and it isnt fair It is a BLOODY NIGHTMARE.
> (......)



another thing is that Madzone has a child that is hyperactive, unless you have dealt with the specific problems with a hyperactive child, that can't calm themselves to listen to reason, don't comment to those who have.

my hyperactive child is small enough to sit on when he kicks off. he's also incredibly strong. Give it a coupel of years and i won't be strong enough to physically restrain him when he starts. hyperactive and puberty will be a nightmare.


----------



## lyra_k (Aug 18, 2005)

madzone said:
			
		

> I hope that the *do gooder, liberal pinko lefties* on this thread realise how fucking arrogant they sound when they criticise other people's parenting methods in such a sanctimonious way.



I can't imagine that you have any idea how you sound when you post like that, otherwise you wouldn't, but I can say that you sound extremely aggressive and defensive.

No-one has criticised you personally, why are you taking it so personally?  We're talking about a TV programme aren't we, and also the broader issue of smacking?  Is something striking a little close to home?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Aug 18, 2005)

toggle said:
			
		

> another thing is that Madzone has a child that is hyperactive, unless you have dealt with the specific problems with a hyperactive child, that can't calm themselves to listen to reason, don't comment to those who have.
> 
> my hyperactive child is small enough to sit on when he kicks off. he's also incredibly strong. Give it a coupel of years and i won't be strong enough to physically restrain him when he starts. hyperactive and puberty will be a nightmare.



Are you saying that striking a child will somehow cure them of their hyperactivity?


----------



## toggle (Aug 18, 2005)

Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> Are you saying that striking a child will somehow cure them of their hyperactivity?




No.

i'm saying that the wish to cobber shit out of the little monster will happen. 


 there are times when dealing with the child physically is the only way to get their attention. a light slap may work occasionally, whennit is applied as a last resort to dealing with a minature tornado.


----------



## moomoo (Aug 18, 2005)

LilMissHissyFit said:
			
		

> Hahahaha ALL my kids were lovely at three, as are most of my friends three year olds
> Until you have an older child I don't think you have the first idea about how to parent an older child. When they do get older and their behaviour changes due to hormones, puberty etc ( and it can and does start as young as 9) and just pushing boundaries becuase their mates are allowed to do such and such and all of a sudden they realise the world isnt a safe easy place and it isnt fair It is a BLOODY NIGHTMARE.
> I suggest anyone with children smaller than around 8 or 9 doesnt even start to try to comment or criticise anyone elses parenting becuase believe me hold on to yur hats people. A whole lot changes when the tricks that work when they are under 5 dont work any more and all of a sudden hard discipline means just that, hard bloody work for the parents and unfortunately sometimes that does mean Dragging them up the stairs physically to put them in their rooms or to stop them doing something they want to or make them do something they don't want to do( like go to bed when said 10 year old is having a tantum and has decided lying on the living room floor screaming blue murder is the best plan of action)




Hear Hear!!

I have chased my 12 year old up to her room before and when she got there she opened the window (at the front of the house) and started screaming 'don't hit me, don't hit me'!    I didn't know whether to laugh or cry!  (I wasn't going to hit her btw, she was doing it for effect!).

To those of you who only have, say, under 5's - take it from us that know - the day *will* come when you are frantically thumbing through the Yellow Pages looking for the number of Social Services to come and remove this horrible, vicious creature that your darling baby has turned into.  You *will* come to the point where you could batter them with a big stick!

The frustration of dealing with 9+ year olds is something you don't think about when you have little ones and it is so easy to judge other people, but your time will come........................


----------



## lyra_k (Aug 18, 2005)

LilMissHissyFit said:
			
		

> I suggest anyone with children smaller than around 8 or 9 doesnt even start to try to comment or criticise anyone elses parenting becuase believe me hold on to yur hats people. A whole lot changes when the tricks that work when they are under 5 dont work any more and all of a sudden hard discipline means just that, hard bloody work for the parents and unfortunately sometimes that does mean Dragging them up the stairs physically to put them in their rooms or to stop them doing something they want to or make them do something they don't want to do( like go to bed when said 10 year old is having a tantum and has decided lying on the living room floor screaming blue murder is the best plan of action)



I can see what you're saying, but even most advocates of smacking say that it is for _younger_ children, to get their attention when they're too young to understand reason.  Are you saying that smacking doesn't really get _started_ until they're 8 or 9?

And whatever a person's personal take on this (and I respect that different parents have different approaches), you can't deny the fact that there are plenty of non-smacking parents around who have great, well-behaved kids of all ages.

I know some - they are my role models and no doubt the people I'll turn to for advice when I'm at the end of my tether, as will no doubt happen again at some stage.


----------



## madzone (Aug 18, 2005)

lyra_kitten said:
			
		

> I can't imagine that you have any idea how you sound when you post like that, otherwise you wouldn't, but I can say that you sound extremely aggressive and defensive.
> 
> No-one has criticised you personally, why are you taking it so personally?  We're talking about a TV programme aren't we, and also the broader issue of smacking?  Is something striking a little close to home?


Enough with the pop psychology Lyra 

I am quite aware of how aggressively I'm coming accross and it's quite deliberate. I am utterly fed up with people criticising parents who are either doing their best with limited resources (emotional or otherwise) or have had the bollocks to ask for help and have their dirty laundry aired on national TV. 
I've actually had people criticising me for NOT hitting my son when he was kicking off in public. You can't fucking win in this country - every sanctimonious fucker knows best.


----------



## lyra_k (Aug 18, 2005)

madzone said:
			
		

> I am quite aware of how aggressively I'm coming accross and it's quite deliberate.



OK well whatever floats your boat.  It's painful to read, but I guess that's the idea?


----------



## madzone (Aug 18, 2005)

toggle said:
			
		

> another thing is that Madzone has a child that is hyperactive.


Thank you Toggle 
At the parenting classes we had to attend I was told to put an 11 yr old with hyperactivity 'in the naughty chair'


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Aug 18, 2005)

moomoo said:
			
		

> Hear Hear!!
> 
> I have chased my 12 year old up to her room before and when she got there she opened the window (at the front of the house) and started screaming 'don't hit me, don't hit me'!    I didn't know whether to laugh or cry!  (I wasn't going to hit her btw, she was doing it for effect!).
> 
> ...



My eldest is in uni, my youngest is still in primary school. I have a kid in middle school who is now big enough to kick the crap out of me if he so chose.

The way I avoided that day was by applying the discipline, and following through, when they were still fairly small. Now, they actually listen, although extremely reluctantly at times. 

It's like training a dog. You instill the lessons when it's a puppy, and you get a dog that listens when it grows up. Otherwise, you get a dog that chews your slippers and barks at you when you tell it to come.


----------



## madzone (Aug 18, 2005)

lyra_kitten said:
			
		

> OK well whatever floats your boat.  It's painful to read, but I guess that's the idea?


Pop psychologist and patronising as well? It's just as painful to read the ill-informed versions of nirvana that we've been presented with here.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Aug 18, 2005)

That's the thing. If you get in slugging matches with your kids, you can win. But the day comes when that won't be effective any more, because as they get big, the day comes when they win. How  do you get them to listen then?


----------



## lyra_k (Aug 18, 2005)

madzone said:
			
		

> Pop psychologist and patronising as well? It's just as painful to read the ill-informed versions of nirvana that we've been presented with here.



So everyone who has different ideas from yours is ill-informed?  Even the ones that've BTDT?

Bad-tempered and incredibly arrogant too, eh?


----------



## madzone (Aug 18, 2005)

Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> That's the thing. If you get in slugging matches with your kids, you can win. But the day comes when that won't be effective any more, because as they get big, the day comes when they win. How  do you get them to listen then?


With a baseball bat to the back of the legs


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Aug 18, 2005)

lyra_kitten said:
			
		

> I can see what you're saying, but even most advocates of smacking say that it is for _younger_ children, to get their attention when they're too young to understand reason.  Are you saying that smacking doesn't really get _started_ until they're 8 or 9?
> 
> And whatever a person's personal take on this (and I respect that different parents have different approaches), you can't deny the fact that there are plenty of non-smacking parents around who have great, well-behaved kids of all ages.
> 
> I know some - they are my role models and no doubt the people I'll turn to for advice when I'm at the end of my tether, as will no doubt happen again at some stage.



My own record for butt slapping goes from no times at all with one kid, to maybe three times with another. But it never happened after about age six.


----------



## Buddy Bradley (Aug 18, 2005)

madzone said:
			
		

> every sanctimonious fucker knows best.


Including you.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Aug 18, 2005)

madzone said:
			
		

> With a baseball bat to the back of the legs




But you have to go to sleep sometime....


----------



## madzone (Aug 18, 2005)

lyra_kitten said:
			
		

> So everyone who has different ideas from yours is ill-informed?  Even the ones that've BTDT?
> 
> Bad-tempered and incredibly arrogant too, eh?


Nothing to do with having different ideas to me, it's to do with not understanding that not everyone has the same resources.


----------



## lyra_k (Aug 18, 2005)

Buddy Bradley said:
			
		

> Including you.



touché


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Aug 18, 2005)

madzone said:
			
		

> Thank you Toggle
> At the parenting classes we had to attend I was told to put an 11 yr old with hyperactivity 'in the naughty chair'



Isn't that what ritalin is for.

I know nobody likes the thought of drugging kids, but if the kid has a chemical imbalance that makes him hyperactive, he needs help in being calm enough to learn, etc.


----------



## madzone (Aug 18, 2005)

Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> Isn't that what ritalin is for.
> 
> I know nobody likes the thought of drugging kids, but if the kid has a chemical imbalance that makes him hyperactive, he needs help in being calm enough to learn, etc.


Oh FFS. Don't smack kids but give them amphetamines instead?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Aug 18, 2005)

toggle said:
			
		

> No.
> 
> i'm saying that the wish to cobber shit out of the little monster will happen.
> 
> ...



I don't totally disagree with that.

I'm against the idea of using corporal punishment as part  of your regular discipline.


----------



## madzone (Aug 18, 2005)

Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> I don't totally disagree with that.
> 
> I'm against the idea of using corporal punishment as part  of your regular discipline.


And nobody on this thread would disagree with that


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Aug 18, 2005)

Look, the good thing is that everyone on this thread cares enough about their kids that they are actually debating this.

The really rank fuckers who regularly beat their kids, aren't here on a BB, considering the consequences of their actions.


----------



## lyra_k (Aug 18, 2005)

Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> I don't totally disagree with that.
> 
> I'm against the idea of using corporal punishment as part  of your regular discipline.



ditto.  Don't like the idea of it even as an occasional thing, but have succumbed once to a slap on the hand, and who knows what will happen in the future.....

But I can at least start with good intentions, and not ever get to the point of some parents that I've met, where spankings are daily events which patently DON'T WORK.


----------



## Buddy Bradley (Aug 18, 2005)

madzone said:
			
		

> Nothing to do with having different ideas to me, it's to do with not understanding that not everyone has the same resources.


That's twice you've referred to parents "not having the resources" to parent effectively - what exactly are you referring to? Do you mean they are not emotionally equipped to deal with children, or that their position on the social ladder (education, income?) does not allow them to avoid hitting their kids?

And if the former, why is that an excuse?


----------



## madzone (Aug 18, 2005)

I think everyone is talking at cross purposes and this thread has gone off on an urbanesque tangent. No-one is advocating the use of regualr corporal punishamnet. All I'm saying is that the people who appear to be comfilly smug and are patting themselves on the back that their little Johnny/Jocasta is a littel angel who has never ellicited a raised tone of voice, let alone anything stronger may a) be in for a bit of a shock one day b) have no right to feel superior to another parent who is at the end of their tether.


----------



## toggle (Aug 18, 2005)

Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> Isn't that what ritalin is for.
> 
> I know nobody likes the thought of drugging kids, but if the kid has a chemical imbalance that makes him hyperactive, he needs help in being calm enough to learn, etc.




we look at drugging children as an absolute last resort.


swatting a kid occasionally is seen as a klesser evil than druggin them.

iirc, madzone is also hyperactive, it's an inherited condition??????


----------



## madzone (Aug 18, 2005)

Buddy Bradley said:
			
		

> That's twice you've referred to parents "not having the resources" to parent effectively - what exactly are you referring to? Do you mean they are not emotionally equipped to deal with children, or that their position on the social ladder (education, income?) does not allow them to avoid hitting their kids?
> 
> And if the former, why is that an excuse?



There are all sorts of resources necessary for adequate parenting. They range from emotional, financial, familial support etc etc etc. It's not rocket science. That woman last night had obviously reached the end of her tether and couldn't cope with her 3 highly motivated, lively and intelligent , demanding children - all under the age of ten. She had run out of emotional reasources and needed outside help. She also didn't look as if she ever got any time off. There are countless families who need outside help and for a host of reasons they don't get it.

You talk of excuses as if parenting is a cut and dried matter of right and wrong.


----------



## LilMissHissyFit (Aug 18, 2005)

lyra_kitten said:
			
		

> I can see what you're saying, but even most advocates of smacking say that it is for _younger_ children, to get their attention when they're too young to understand reason.  Are you saying that smacking doesn't really get _started_ until they're 8 or 9?
> 
> And whatever a person's personal take on this (and I respect that different parents have different approaches), you can't deny the fact that there are plenty of non-smacking parents around who have great, well-behaved kids of all ages.
> 
> I know some - they are my role models and no doubt the people I'll turn to for advice when I'm at the end of my tether, as will no doubt happen again at some stage.



No Im not making any judgements on smacking nor on people who smack if you read my post.
I will say though that the desire to unleash umpteenth sorts of hell on your teen is very real and should be respected not denied in parents who are at the end of their tether. getting all holier than though about it isnt helping anyone. The DESIRE is totally different from actually doing it. Believe me Ive been tempted to grab my 10 year old and give her such a bloody shake she wobbles for the next week but I dont do it. Why? becuase I love her and do keep trying with reason, consequences etc. Its bloody hard work. Ive not seen anyone here saying I beat my child with a big stick/smack the living daylights out of them etc. they are different things.
Its such a shame that to get any help for your child you have to literally throw yourself at the mercy of whoever you can beg for help and hope that they dont judge you terribly for asking.
My 10 year old ( almost 11) was experiencing huge vicious ,. agressive mood swings  and tantrums ( including hitting me, kicking me etc)becuase she cannot cope with school, in the holidays she is hormonal and stroppy but liveable. I used to think it was my fault, that I had done something wrong. Eventually we realised her dyslexia hasnt been anywhere nearly well enough addressed and she has huge difficulty dealing with school.( remove school she goes back to 'normal')

I had to go to the doctors repeatedly and beg, I rang social services and begged, spoke to the school and begged and got absolutely nowhere.
Eventually I banged the health visitors door and said DO SOMETHING! HELP ME DEAL WITH THIS!!!. Now its being dealt with but by god didnt i have to reach the point where I was plotting how the hell i could leave my children with my husband and bugger off somewhere so people would realise I couldnt live with this childs tantums any more.


----------



## toggle (Aug 18, 2005)

Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> I don't totally disagree with that.
> 
> I'm against the idea of using corporal punishment as part  of your regular discipline.



it's not regular

imo, it is only effective if it is not regular, if it is a shock thart they have pissed off mum that much


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Aug 18, 2005)

madzone said:
			
		

> I think everyone is talking at cross purposes and this thread has gone off on an urbanesque tangent. No-one is advocating the use of regualr corporal punishamnet. All I'm saying is that the people who appear to be comfilly smug and are patting themselves on the back that their little Johnny/Jocasta is a littel angel who has never ellicited a raised tone of voice, let alone anything stronger may a) be in for a bit of a shock one day b) have no right to feel superior to another parent who is at the end of their tether.




That's true. My own kids were different in the amount of discipline needed. It's a shock when one was really easy to deal with, then another one comes along who is much more of a handful.

But I think that the strategies that you apply to the easy kids, will work with the more difficult ones. With  a few little variations.


----------



## madzone (Aug 18, 2005)

toggle said:
			
		

> iirc, madzone is also hyperactive, it's an inherited condition??????


Yeah - I am - ADHD with M.E - fekkin weirdo


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Aug 18, 2005)

toggle said:
			
		

> it's not regular
> 
> imo, it is only effective if it is not regular, if it is a shock thart they have pissed off mum that much



That's true. It always shocks the shit out of the kids when dad gets mad.


----------



## madzone (Aug 18, 2005)

Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> But I think that the strategies that you apply to the easy kids, will work with the more difficult ones. With  a few little variations.


Only if someone knows what those strategies are.


----------



## toggle (Aug 18, 2005)

what you need to get is that those of us that suggest a smack occasionally aren't suggesting that we beat our kids daily.


we are saying that it is occasionally necessary to get the child's atttention. 


i bel;ieve the lesz frequently it is used, the more effective it is. a slap on the leg or bum more frequently than every 4 weeks looses it's effectiveness


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Aug 18, 2005)

madzone said:
			
		

> Only if someone knows what those strategies are.



If someone is a parent, then imo they have a duty to their kids to find out what they are.


----------



## lyra_k (Aug 18, 2005)

Any discussion about discipling kids always seems to descend into this rabid stereotyping, in which you must either be

a. a smug middle class wanker with a child called Jocasta  

or 

b. a feckless loser who whacks your children because you don't have the brains to do anything else.

Pretty stupid, really, since no-one on the thread has come anywhere near either extreme.

It's clear where/who the unnecessary aggression and name-calling originated from, though.


----------



## Buddy Bradley (Aug 18, 2005)

toggle said:
			
		

> it's not regular
> 
> imo, it is only effective if it is not regular, if it is a shock thart they have pissed off mum that much


See, I just cannot see a reason for it to be acceptable for me to hit my child - I'm not 'allowed' to hit my wife if she is refusing to do what I want her to do; similarly I'd be arrested if I smacked everyone who frustrated me (not that that stops everyone; witness road rage) - I just don't find it acceptable that children can be seen as some sort of lesser person, not deserving of the right not to be hit.


----------



## madzone (Aug 18, 2005)

Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> If someone is a parent, then imo they have a duty to their kids to find out what they are.



You're looking at things from only your own perspective again Johnny.


----------



## madzone (Aug 18, 2005)

Buddy Bradley said:
			
		

> See, I just cannot see a reason for it to be acceptable for me to hit my child - I'm not 'allowed' to hit my wife if she is refusing to do what I want her to do; similarly I'd be arrested if I smacked everyone who frustrated me (not that that stops everyone; witness road rage) - I just don't find it acceptable that children can be seen as some sort of lesser person, not deserving of the right not to be hit.


I don't have an issue with that, it's all very logical. I have an issue with your sneering at the woman from last night's programme.


----------



## LilMissHissyFit (Aug 18, 2005)

People who call any child jocasta deserve a good kick in the pants. Hopefully the child will do it themselves when they are old enough


----------



## madzone (Aug 18, 2005)

lyra_kitten said:
			
		

> It's clear where/who the unnecessary aggression and name-calling originated from, though.


Really? Oh do enlighten us Dr Lyra   

Unnecessary aggression my arse, I won't sit back and have smug tosspots casting nasturtiums on some beleaguered woman who has had the humility to ask (very publically) for help with her domestic situation.


----------



## Buddy Bradley (Aug 18, 2005)

madzone said:
			
		

> I don't have an issue with that, it's all very logical. I have an issue with your sneering at the women from last night's programme.


Where have I "sneered" at the woman on the programme?? I only made one post on the topic of the programme - the rest of my contribution to this thread has been arguing with you...


----------



## madzone (Aug 18, 2005)

Buddy Bradley said:
			
		

> Where have I "sneered" at the woman on the programme?? I only made one post on the topic of the programme - the rest of my contribution to this thread has been arguing with you...


http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=3405662&postcount=2

That's pretty sneery mate


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Aug 18, 2005)

Buddy Bradley said:
			
		

> See, I just cannot see a reason for it to be acceptable for me to hit my child - I'm not 'allowed' to hit my wife if she is refusing to do what I want her to do; similarly I'd be arrested if I smacked everyone who frustrated me (not that that stops everyone; witness road rage) - I just don't find it acceptable that children can be seen as some sort of lesser person, not deserving of the right not to be hit.




I usually find that angry behaviour, judiciously used is good enough, but as I've said above, I have on rare occasion given a child a smack on the backside. I don't believe in hitting kids, and I hated doing it, but with some children, in certain situations, it might be called for.

Yes, children should have the right to not be hit, etc, but we owe other duties to kids besides a duty to treat them like equal beings/citizens or whatever.

As you know, they are young humans going through developmental stages, so there is a spectrum of things that we do to interact with them.

You want it so that you can reason with a fourteen year old about why they can't stay out all night, but that strategy won't work for a two year old who won't go to bed.

You owe a duty to your kids to do all in your power to make them healthy and well adjusted people, and with some kids, at some ages, that may on rare occasion require a slap on the backside.


----------



## madzone (Aug 18, 2005)

Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> You owe a duty to your kids to do all in your power to make them healthy and well adjusted people, and with some kids, at some ages, that may on rare occasion require a slap on the backside.


  

Call the cops Johhny - I agree


----------



## pilchardman (Aug 18, 2005)

I've never seen this programme, but I was just invited along to this thread because my views on being a parent are known.

(At least I presume that's why.  The first post was about getting neutered, and I've had the snip!    )

So, where had we got to?  Have we done "children as an oppressed minority" yet?


----------



## lyra_k (Aug 18, 2005)

pilchardman said:
			
		

> So, where had we got to?  Have we done "children as an oppressed minority" yet?



no, we're up to the bit where you have to admit that all your children are called Jocasta.


----------



## madzone (Aug 18, 2005)

pilchardman said:
			
		

> So, where had we got to?  Have we done "children as an oppressed minority" yet?


'Reaches for the nettle wine and an intravenous drip'


----------



## Buddy Bradley (Aug 18, 2005)

madzone said:
			
		

> http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=3405662&postcount=2
> 
> That's pretty sneery mate


I was commenting more broadly on all the parents featured in the series (and last series), who by and large didn't seem to realise that their behaviour was influencing their childrens'. Yes, that included the woman on the last one - I suppose you can call that sneering if you like, if one of the "resources" you think we should pity people for lacking is common sense...


----------



## Buddy Bradley (Aug 18, 2005)

lyra_kitten said:
			
		

> no, we're up to the bit where you have to admit that all your children are called Jocasta.




I'm off to kiss Frogmella goodnight, then I'm going to bed.


----------



## madzone (Aug 18, 2005)

lyra_kitten said:
			
		

> no, we're up to the bit where you have to admit that all your children are called Jocasta.


Only if you're middle class, live in stoke newington, buy fresh mango puree for the baby from fresh n wild, and have washable nappies made from hemp spun by bare breasted pygmy maidens (fairly traded of course)


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Aug 18, 2005)

madzone said:
			
		

> You're looking at things from only your own perspective again Johnny.




No I'm not. If someone see fit to bring a kid into the world, then it behooves them to do a couple things to try to make the endeavour a success. This can include picking up a book or two on child rearing and reading them. I don't think this is too much to ask, given what's at stake.


----------



## lyra_k (Aug 18, 2005)

Buddy Bradley said:
			
		

> I'm off to kiss Frogmella goodnight, then I'm going to bed.



you smug middle class wanker!


----------



## madzone (Aug 18, 2005)

Buddy Bradley said:
			
		

> I was commenting more broadly on all the parents featured in the series (and last series), who by and large didn't seem to realise that their behaviour was influencing their childrens'. Yes, that included the woman on the last one - I suppose you can call that sneering if you like, if one of the "resources" you think we should pity people for lacking is common sense...


Because you've been parenting all of 3 years now haven't you? It isn't always that cut and dried. She probably didn't know how she was behaving until she saw it on the TV. She was stressed, she has 3 kids all under the age of ten and she's reached the end of her tether. 
Still, it'll never happen to you will it?


----------



## lyra_k (Aug 18, 2005)

Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> No I'm not. If someone see fit to bring a kid into the world, then it behooves them to do a couple things to try to make the endeavour a success. This can include picking up a book or two on child rearing and reading them. I don't think this is too much to ask, given what's at stake.



how judgemental!!!


----------



## pilchardman (Aug 18, 2005)

lyra_kitten said:
			
		

> no, we're up to the bit where you have to admit that all your children are called Jocasta.


Mine are called Heaven-Star and Flower-Warrior.


----------



## pilchardman (Aug 18, 2005)

madzone said:
			
		

> 'Reaches for the nettle wine and an intravenous drip'


Cheeky bugger.


----------



## madzone (Aug 18, 2005)

Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> No I'm not. If someone see fit to bring a kid into the world, then it behooves them to do a couple things to try to make the endeavour a success. This can include picking up a book or two on child rearing and reading them. I don't think this is too much to ask, given what's at stake.


You're making huge sociological assumptions there Johnny. Maybe we should have a law which states that people have to have an emotional suitability test before they're allowed to concive and only then if they can show that their IQ is above 150.


----------



## pilchardman (Aug 18, 2005)

Pssst.  Anyone want to re-read my old article on Parenting?

Gratuitous link.


----------



## madzone (Aug 18, 2005)

pilchardman said:
			
		

> Mine are called Heaven-Star and Flower-Warrior.


Mine are called Menstrua and Hecate


----------



## Masseuse (Aug 18, 2005)

So is it ok to wallop your kid if it's called Jocasta then, but only bring out the dunking stool if it's surname is Haddon-Cecil-Payton?


----------



## lyra_k (Aug 18, 2005)

Masseuse said:
			
		

> So is it ok to wallop your kid if it's called Jocasta then, but only bring out the dunking stool if it's surname is Haddon-Cecil-Payton?



read the thread again, you at the back!     You've got it all arse about face.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Aug 18, 2005)

madzone said:
			
		

> You're making huge sociological assumptions there Johnny. Maybe we should have a law which states that people have to have an emotional suitability test before they're allowed to concive and only then if they can show that their IQ is above 150.



I am assuming that the parent can read, which might be a huge one.

Other than that, I stand by what I said. I wouldn't make it a law to have the stability test, but I might consider a law about reading that child rearing book.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Aug 18, 2005)

What are you suggesting as an alternative: that any two people possessed of a penis and vagina between them, have the right to make a baby, and then do whatever they please with it, just because they're biologically able to procreate?


----------



## pilchardman (Aug 18, 2005)

Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> I am assuming that the parent can read, which might be a huge one.
> 
> Other than that, I stand by what I said. I wouldn't make it a law to have the stability test, but I might consider a law about reading that child rearing book.


Hmmm.  I'm sensing over statement borne of frustration here.

But perhaps it'd be best if only people who actually like children should consider having them...


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Aug 18, 2005)

madzone said:
			
		

> Mine are called Menstrua and Hecate



At least it's not Scylla and Charybdis.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Aug 18, 2005)

pilchardman said:
			
		

> Hmmm.  I'm sensing over statement borne of frustration here.
> 
> But perhaps it'd be best if only people who actually like children should consider having them...



That would be nice, but it isn't that way. But as a society we have an interest in seeing children receive some basics in the way of care and nurturing.


----------



## madzone (Aug 18, 2005)

pilchardman said:
			
		

> Pssst.  Anyone want to re-read my old article on Parenting?
> 
> Gratuitous link.


''Of course no situation is perfect, but what matters is the honest attempt. If all involved trust each other’s intentions, then that is the best that can be asked for.''

That's key IMO.I shouted at my youngest tonight but I explained to him afterwards and apologised. I had burned a pot of rhubarb, discovered that the sausages in the tortilla had gone off and had to fish them out and went to chop his toast up for his scrambled eggs and knocked it off the table onto the floor, all within 30 seconds. He was standing shouting that he wanted a boiled egg and I shouted at him to shut up. He went upstairs crying and when everything was sorted I apologised to him and explained that there was a lot of stuff going on and that his request for a boiled egg wasn't at the best time. He's not permanently scarred and maybe he'll be aware that he can't make demands when the whle fucking world is crashing down round my shoulders. Parents are only human, with human reactions. We can't be reasonable all the time


----------



## madzone (Aug 18, 2005)

Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> What are you suggesting as an alternative: that any two people possessed of a penis and vagina between them, have the right to make a baby, and then do whatever they please with it, just because they're biologically able to procreate?


What's the alternative Johnny?


----------



## Masseuse (Aug 18, 2005)

So if it's a Wayne you can knee him in the bollocks if he gives you lip?


----------



## LilMissHissyFit (Aug 18, 2005)

If you can do the basics great. These parents were putting up with one hell of alot more than the basics


----------



## pilchardman (Aug 18, 2005)

madzone said:
			
		

> I shouted at my youngest tonight but I explained to him afterwards and apologised. .


Yeah, that's the thing.

And the other thing is to put yourself in the other person's position.  I'm not sure how much I'd want to trust some giant bloke who sporadically resorted to leathering me.  In fact from my own recollection I know it's difficult to do.  So if you need to apologize for violence, it needs to be a pretty contrite and convincing one, I'd imagine.


----------



## madzone (Aug 18, 2005)

pilchardman said:
			
		

> Yeah, that's the thing.
> 
> And the other thing is to put yourself in the other person's position.  I'm not sure how much I'd want to trust some giant bloke who sporadically resorted to leathering me.  In fact from my own recollection I know it's difficult to do.  So if you need to apologize for violence, it needs to be a pretty contrite and convincing one, I'd imagine.


But do you equate a smack on the backside with a leathering? Technically they're both violence but surely they differ in intention?


----------



## pilchardman (Aug 18, 2005)

LilMissHissyFit said:
			
		

> If you can do the basics great. These parents were putting up with one hell of alot more than the basics


Aye, see, that's where I can't really comment, not having seen the programme.  But my guess is that situations were chose for the programme based on their drammatic value.

"Minor dispute is easily sorted" does not make for a gripping story.  A certain amount of conflict is required.  (C/f Steptoe and Son, and all other good TV about dysfunctional relationships).


----------



## pilchardman (Aug 18, 2005)

madzone said:
			
		

> But do you equate a smack on the backside with a leathering? Technically they're both violence but surely they differ in intention?


I think this is where you have to imagine the child's perspective.

OK, a tap isn't the same as being beaten black and blue.  But my Dad used to hit me with a belt.  Not black and blue.  But enough to cause damage to our relationship.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Aug 18, 2005)

madzone said:
			
		

> What's the alternative Johnny?



Thoroughly educate people about contraception, so that it becomes as second  nature as brushing your teeth (is that a good analogy for Britain?)

Next, have the resources available to teach the basics of childrearing, and ensure that the availability of the resources is widely known about.


----------



## madzone (Aug 18, 2005)

pilchardman said:
			
		

> I think this is where you have to imagine the child's perspective.
> 
> OK, a tap isn't the same as being beaten black and blue.  But my Dad used to hit me with a belt.  Not black and blue.  But enough to cause damage to our relationship.


My mum used to strangle me till I nearly passed out. She would also wait until we got home before I got my hiding, never in public. I grew up with my mum and my gran and both were violent. The last time my mum hit me I was 25. However, as much as I hate it she was a single parent in the 60's with a hyperactive child and she knew no better. She's not an intelligent woman and whilst that is no 'excuse' she was being the only parent she knew how to be. My gran was brought up in an orphanage run by nuns in an atmosphere of daily violence. Thankfully I'm aware enough not to perpetuate these problems in my own parenting but not everyone has that awareness. Does it make them bad people or are they simply overwhelmed?


----------



## madzone (Aug 18, 2005)

Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> Thoroughly educate people about contraception, so that it becomes as second  nature as brushing your teeth (is that a good analogy for Britain?)
> 
> Next, have the resources available to teach the basics of childrearing, and ensure that the availability of the resources is widely known about.


Utopia, in other words.


----------



## lyra_k (Aug 18, 2005)

pilchardman said:
			
		

> I think this is where you have to imagine the child's perspective.
> 
> OK, a tap isn't the same as being beaten black and blue.  But my Dad used to hit me with a belt.  Not black and blue.  But enough to cause damage to our relationship.



I agree sooooooo strongly.  And not only that, but if you yell at or hit a child in anger or on impulse, and then apologise, on a regular basis, then I'd think you'd end up with one very screwed up, confused and disorientated child.

My mum used to hit me and yell at me in anger when I was a toddler/kid, but she nnever apologised - not sure if that was better or worse.      At least I knew where I stood, I suppose (in the wrong, always).   To find out that I would be yelled at or hit even when I _wasn't_ in the wrong according to her mood would have confused/upset me even further, I think.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Aug 18, 2005)

madzone said:
			
		

> Utopia, in other words.



No, utopia would have a few more features than that. I think what I'm talking about is doable.


----------



## madzone (Aug 18, 2005)

lyra_kitten said:
			
		

> I agree sooooooo strongly.  And not only that, but if you yell at or hit a child in anger or on impulse, and then apologise, on a regular basis, then I'd think you'd end up with one very screwed up, confused and disorientated child.
> 
> My mum used to hit me and yell at me in anger when I was a toddler/kid, but she nnever apologised - not sure if that was better or worse.      At least I knew where I stood, I suppose (in the wrong, always).   To find out that I would be yelled at or hit even when I _wasn't_ in the wrong according to her mood would have confused/upset me even further, I think.



So, you never shout when angry? You never lose your cool at all, ever, with anyone?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Aug 18, 2005)

madzone said:
			
		

> My mum used to strangle me till I nearly passed out. She would also wait until we got home before I got my hiding, never in public. I grew up with my mum and my gran and both were violent. The last time my mum hit me I was 25. However, as much as I hate it she was a single parent in the 60's with a hyperactive child and she knew no better. She's not an intelligent woman and whilst that is no 'excuse' she was being the only parent she knew how to be. My gran was brought up in an orphanage run by nuns in an atmosphere of daily violence. Thankfully I'm aware enough not to perpetuate these problems in my own parenting but not everyone has that awareness. Does it make them bad people or are they simply overwhelmed?



That is unfortunate.

I was raised by a single mother and grandmother also, but received one spanking in my life. My mother had few resources and probably was overwhelmed as well.

That doesn't make your relatives bad people, but neither is it written that if you're a single parent, it is somehow understandable that you will be forced to use violence against your children.


----------



## pilchardman (Aug 18, 2005)

madzone said:
			
		

> Does it make them bad people or are they simply overwhelmed?


Christ, I'm not even close to wanting to make that judgement.  All I'm saying is - children are autonomous individuals, and if we want a good relationship, then we could do worse than treating them with the respect we'd afford an adult.

I love my Dad.  He was doing what he knew.  But I wouldn't use it as a model for all sorts of reasons.


----------



## lyra_k (Aug 18, 2005)

madzone said:
			
		

> Does it make them bad people or are they simply overwhelmed?



I don't think it's useful or helpful to anyone to use labels like "bad people" - as you say we're all products of our upbringing.

However, I think that one CAN say that people who are overwhelmed to the point where they cross the line into child abuse, whether or not they might be good people underneath it all, should not be allowed to continue to abuse the helpless children in their care.


----------



## madzone (Aug 18, 2005)

Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> That is unfortunate.
> 
> I was raised by a single mother and grandmother also, but received one spanking in my life. My mother had few resources and probably was overwhelmed as well.
> 
> That doesn't make your relatives bad people, but neither is it written that if you're a single parent, it is somehow understandable that you will be forced to use violence against your children.


It wasn't just that she was single parent Johnny. That's not what I'm saying.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Aug 18, 2005)

madzone said:
			
		

> It wasn't just that she was single parent Johnny. That's not what I'm saying.




There were other factors in my upbringing that I haven't mentioned either.


----------



## madzone (Aug 18, 2005)

pilchardman said:
			
		

> Christ, I'm not even close to wanting to make that judgement.  All I'm saying is - children are autonomous individuals, and if we want a good relationship, then we could do worse than treating them with the respect we'd afford an adult.


I'm just as likely to shout at an adult in the circumstances I described earlier


----------



## lyra_k (Aug 18, 2005)

madzone said:
			
		

> So, you never shout when angry? You never lose your cool at all, ever, with anyone?



Actually, no, I don't.  I'm very level-headed and calm by nature, and I can't even think what I would sound like if I was screaming in anger because it really doesn't ever happen.  Doesn't make me a better or worse person, it's just how I am. 

It doesn't mean I've had an easy life with no challenges, either - not that you would ever suggest such a thing.  Just different personalities, I suppose.


----------



## madzone (Aug 18, 2005)

lyra_kitten said:
			
		

> I don't think it's useful or helpful to anyone to use labels like "bad people" - as you say we're all products of our upbringing.
> 
> However, I think that one CAN say that people who are overwhelmed to the point where they cross the line into child abuse, whether or not they might be good people underneath it all, should not be allowed to continue to abuse the helpless children in their care.


That's a big kettle of worms Lyra.


----------



## madzone (Aug 18, 2005)

lyra_kitten said:
			
		

> Just different personalities, I suppose.


Exactly! It's also cultural. We are a bit hung up about shouting and stuff. I'd rather people were a bit shouty and got it out in the open and then made up than simmering resentment . Can't stand sulking - it does my head in.


----------



## Masseuse (Aug 18, 2005)

I think it's brilliant these programmes are being made.  While a lot of it may seem like common sense to some people a lot of us are only equipped with the child-rearing techniques we learned from our parents - ok if your parents did the job well, but not so ok if they were pillocks.

I'm pretty sure if I'd have had children in my early twenties I would have repeated a lot of my parents mistakes, chiefly using physical punishment to keep them in line.  Simply because I was reared along very authoritarian principles and that's the only way I knew how to relate to children - as a disciplinary figure who children had to obey.

Fortunately I did a lot of nannying work in my twenties instead where it would not have been the done thing to wallop other people's kids, so I had to find out other ways to stop them running into the road and putting their fingers into plugholes.  When the realisation hit me that children are not some sort of aliens who need to be bullied into submission, but simply small people, with the same emotions and frustrations as adults but a bit less wise in the ways of the world, the job became a whole lot easier.

Now I just cannot concieve of hitting a child, no matter how badly behaved.  I don't care how wishy-washy liberal it appears, hitting someone smaller than you who cannot fight back is not a constructive or helpful thing to do.  It might be understandable to lose your rag and do something you regret - but that's the context it should be seen in - a regrettable incident.  It shouldn't be defended as anyone's "right".


----------



## pilchardman (Aug 18, 2005)

madzone said:
			
		

> I'm just as likely to shout at an adult in the circumstances I described earlier


Sure.  But you also apologize if you're in the wrong, yeah?

And you have to keep in mind the position of powerlessness children have in society.  Me shouting at a child is not an exchange between people weilding equal social power.


----------



## lyra_k (Aug 18, 2005)

madzone said:
			
		

> I'd rather people were a bit shouty and got it out in the open



Among adults (if they all agree that's what they prefer) - fine.

For a baby or small child - pretty terrifying, I should think.

And you're right - as someone who's calm and cool, I probably find yelling and screaming much more disturbing and objectionable than someone who sees it as a good way of expressing yourself.  I'm not sure if the average child would appreciate the subtleties of that, though.


----------



## lyra_k (Aug 18, 2005)

Masseuse said:
			
		

> I'm pretty sure if I'd have had children in my early twenties I would have repeated a lot of my parents mistakes, chiefly using physical punishment to keep them in line.  Simply because I was reared along very authoritarian principles and that's the only way I knew how to relate to children - as a disciplinary figure who children had to obey.
> 
> Fortunately I did a lot of nannying work in my twenties instead where it would not have been the done thing to wallop other people's kids, so I had to find out other ways to stop them running into the road and putting their fingers into plugholes.  When the realisation hit me that children are not some sort of aliens who need to be bullied into submission, but simply small people, with the same emotions and frustrations as adults but a bit less wise in the ways of the world, the job became a whole lot easier.
> 
> Now I just cannot concieve of hitting a child, no matter how badly behaved.  I don't care how wishy-washy liberal it appears, hitting someone smaller than you who cannot fight back is not a constructive or helpful thing to do.  It might be understandable to lose your rag and do something you regret - but that's the context it should be seen in - a regrettable incident.  It shouldn't be defended as anyone's "right".



I could have written that word for word, almost, even down to learning a lot about how to discipline kids without violence through nannying, where you simply can't (my charges were 3, 8 and 12), and through being a f/t stepmother for many years, where it really wasn't appropriate either.  If you CAN'T hit because it's not allowed, you find other ways.


----------



## madzone (Aug 18, 2005)

Masseuse said:
			
		

> I think it's brilliant these programmes are being made.  While a lot of it may seem like common sense to some people a lot of us are only equipped with the child-rearing techniques we learned from our parents - ok if your parents did the job well, but not so ok if they were pillocks.
> 
> I'm pretty sure if I'd have had children in my early twenties I would have repeated a lot of my parents mistakes, chiefly using physical punishment to keep them in line.  Simply because I was reared along very authoritarian principles and that's the only way I knew how to relate to children - as a disciplinary figure who children had to obey.
> 
> ...


I'm certainly not saying it's anyones right. I'm saying that it's not our right to feel superior to someone who doesn't have the same skills, awareness, resources, experiences.
Bad parenting is like racism IMO - if we demonise people the issues won't be brought out in the open to be dealt with and corrected.


----------



## madzone (Aug 18, 2005)

pilchardman said:
			
		

> Sure.  But you also apologize if you're in the wrong, yeah?



Absolutely - unless it's my husband and then it's always his fault 



			
				Pilchardman said:
			
		

> Me shouting at a child is not an exchange between people weilding equal social power.


That's true - my children are much more socially powerful than me


----------



## Masseuse (Aug 18, 2005)

madzone said:
			
		

> I'm certainly not saying it's anyones right. I'm saying that it's not our right to feel superior to someone who doesn't have the same skills, awareness, resources, experiences.
> Bad parenting is like racism IMO - if we demonise people the issues won't be brought out in the open to be dealt with and corrected.



Agreed.  



> Absolutely - unless it's my husband and then it's always his fault



Agreed.


----------



## pilchardman (Aug 18, 2005)

madzone said:
			
		

> That's true - my children are much more socially powerful than me


    No they aren't!  You just think that because they don't always want to do what you want them to do.

But they really don't have the same social power as you, which you will quickly see if the encounter we're describing isn't between you and them, but some other adult and them.


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## Pip (Aug 19, 2005)

Some of the lines that girl came out with made me laugh, I must admit.
I kept having to remind myself that she was only eight years old as she was so articulate and seemed really angsty. I wouldn't be surprised if some of her behaviour was due to going through puberty


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## Buddy Bradley (Aug 19, 2005)

madzone said:
			
		

> I shouted at my youngest tonight but I explained to him afterwards and apologised. I had burned a pot of rhubarb, discovered that the sausages in the tortilla had gone off and had to fish them out and went to chop his toast up for his scrambled eggs and knocked it off the table onto the floor, all within 30 seconds. He was standing shouting that he wanted a boiled egg and I shouted at him to shut up. He went upstairs crying and when everything was sorted I apologised to him and explained that there was a lot of stuff going on and that his request for a boiled egg wasn't at the best time. He's not permanently scarred and maybe he'll be aware that he can't make demands when the whle fucking world is crashing down round my shoulders. Parents are only human, with human reactions. We can't be reasonable all the time


So you got angry because you can't cook and took it out on a child - and you're holding this up as a good example?


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## madzone (Aug 19, 2005)

pilchardman said:
			
		

> No they aren't!  You just think that because they don't always want to do what you want them to do.
> 
> But they really don't have the same social power as you, which you will quickly see if the encounter we're describing isn't between you and them, but some other adult and them.


I was joking pilch


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## madzone (Aug 19, 2005)

Buddy Bradley said:
			
		

> So you got angry because you can't cook and took it out on a child - and you're holding this up as a good example?


Fuck off


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## toggle (Aug 19, 2005)

Buddy Bradley said:
			
		

> So you got angry because you can't cook and took it out on a child - and you're holding this up as a good example?



Just like the superb example you've given us of a patronising arsewipe


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## madzone (Aug 19, 2005)

A little story about the pitfalls of being a smug parent:

I lived in an extremely small, island community when my adhd son was between 1 and 4. There was one particualr 'pillar of the community' who used to sneer at me and tut at my sons bahaviour. His daughter was a little angel, he prided himself on never having to shout at her and was incredibly superior towards me. In fact he was a smug fucker who thought parenting was easy and that his position in the community meant he was some kind of experrt on it. 
His prat fall came when his daughter moved to London and one day the newspapers arrived and his daughter was all over the national press. She was a call girl addicted to cocaine.

 He wasn't so smug after that.


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## Buddy Bradley (Aug 19, 2005)

toggle said:
			
		

> Just like the superb example you've given us of a patronising arsewipe


Okay, well thanks for your valuable input, then...



			
				madzone said:
			
		

> A little story about the pitfalls of being a smug parent:
> 
> <snip>
> 
> He wasn't so smug after that.


Which proves what, exactly? You seem to be confusing personal anecdote for fact - Stobart Syndrome, I think it's called...


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## madzone (Aug 19, 2005)

Buddy Bradley said:
			
		

> Which proves what, exactly? You seem to be confusing personal anecdote for fact - Stobart Syndrome, I think it's called...


Personal anecdote for fact? What on earth are you talking about? I've related a story of a smug, superior parent who ended up with a prostitute drug addict daughter. You must be geting very long arms from all the back patting you're giving yourself.
Have you actually got anything to contribute to this thread because, as you admitted, aside from your first post you've done nothing but argue with me.


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## mentalchik (Aug 19, 2005)

I have 3 boys (20, nearly 18 yrs and 12 yrs old), i admit that in the early years i was probably guilty of being shouty, angry at times and occasionally they got smacks on the bum.


We are quite a 'shouty loud' family but i can't remember now the last time i ever raised a hand to any of them (with one exception a few months ago my middle son, he's nearly 18 and 6ft3, lost it big time in an argument and almost took the kitchen door off its hinges and i slapped his face....  )


They are a fantastic bunch of guys, everyone that comes into contact with them comments on what lovely people they are. They are by no means perfect but i have a lot of friends that envy the relationship i have with them as opposed to their own relationship with their parents..........



I did the best i could at the time, i grew and learned with them and they with me, i am a much better parent now than i was then, its not something that you are born with, you have to learn it and find what works best for you and your kids !


Imo reasonable behaviour/dicipline and giving your children respect as people etc don't have to be mutually exclusive !


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Aug 19, 2005)

mentalchik said:
			
		

> Imo reasonable behaviour/dicipline and giving your children respect as people etc don't have to be mutually exclusive !



It's too bad this can't be bottled and sold.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Aug 19, 2005)

madzone said:
			
		

> A little story about the pitfalls of being a smug parent:
> 
> I lived in an extremely small, island community when my adhd son was between 1 and 4. There was one particualr 'pillar of the community' who used to sneer at me and tut at my sons bahaviour. His daughter was a little angel, he prided himself on never having to shout at her and was incredibly superior towards me. In fact he was a smug fucker who thought parenting was easy and that his position in the community meant he was some kind of experrt on it.
> His prat fall came when his daughter moved to London and one day the newspapers arrived and his daughter was all over the national press. She was a call girl addicted to cocaine.
> ...



Which only goes to show that in ways that weren't obvious, his child was going through a lot of pain.


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## madzone (Aug 19, 2005)

Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> Which only goes to show that in ways that weren't obvious, his child was going through a lot of pain.


She was going through a lot of coke.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Aug 19, 2005)

madzone said:
			
		

> She was going through a lot of coke.



I think you're a more empathetic person than that.


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## pilchardman (Aug 19, 2005)

madzone said:
			
		

> I was joking pilch


   I know.  That's why I laughed.


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## madzone (Aug 19, 2005)

Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> I think you're a more empathetic person than that.


I can't say I had a lot of empathy for her Johnny - she was a spoilt little cow. I found the whole thing funny as fuck - still do.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Aug 19, 2005)

madzone said:
			
		

> I can't say I had a lot of empathy for her Johnny - she was a spoilt little cow. I found the whole thing funny as fuck - still do.



Your beef was with the smug father.

Now it looks like not only was he a smug asshole, but he was messing his kid up as well.

Why take your anger at her father, out on the kid?


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Aug 19, 2005)

I mean, how funny can it be, that someone has been reduced to being a drug addicted prostitute?


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## madzone (Aug 19, 2005)

Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> I mean, how funny can it be, that someone has been reduced to being a drug addicted prostitute?


She was having a whale of a time. She was wadded and didn't show a bit of remorse. She still doesn't. She wasn't standing on st corners or anything, she was a high class call girl and it was cocaine - not heroin or crack. It brought her pompous father down a peg or 22, that's the funny bit.

And btw I'm not angry at anyone - it was a superb bit of divine retribution for the smug cunt


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## Masseuse (Aug 19, 2005)

madzone said:
			
		

> She was having a whale of a time. She was wadded and didn't show a bit of remorse. She still doesn't. She wasn't standing on st corners or anything, she was a high class call girl and it was cocaine - not heroin or crack. It brought her pompous father down a peg or 22, that's the funny bit.
> 
> 
> And btw I'm not angry at anyone - it was a superb bit of divine retribution for the smug cunt



Madzone!  Come on now gel, not like you to take comfort in other's misery.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Aug 19, 2005)

madzone said:
			
		

> She was having a whale of a time. She was wadded and didn't show a bit of remorse. She still doesn't. She wasn't standing on st corners or anything, she was a high class call girl and it was cocaine - not heroin or crack. It brought her pompous father down a peg or 22, that's the funny bit.
> 
> And btw I'm not angry at anyone - it was a superb bit of divine retribution for the smug cunt



If she's a coke addict hooker, the street corner is only a matter of time.


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## weepiper (Aug 19, 2005)

lyra_kitten said:
			
		

> I agree sooooooo strongly.  And not only that, but if you yell at or hit a child in anger or on impulse, and then apologise, on a regular basis, then I'd think you'd end up with one very screwed up, confused and disorientated child.



This pretty much describes Mr weepiper's childhood. His mother regularly lost her temper with him over tiny things and had screaming rows at him (still does actually) then expects everything to go back to nicey nicey ten minutes afterwards when she's calmed down. Some of the things she's said to him have made me want to cry for him  He can't cope properly with it now and he's 33, so god knows what it must have been like as a child. AFAIK she never hit him as a child although his father did on several memorable occasions.

On the other hand I can remember being spanked once in my life by my dad, when we 3 kids aged 4, 8 and 10 had raided the Christmas booze cupboard and got drunk (to be fair I never went near that cupboard again till I was old enough, but another part of me thinks they should have had a lock on it). My mum never hit me. We got shouted at very occasionally. Otherwise it was a case of being sent to 'the sulking room' at the back of the house to think on whatever had got us sent there for half an hour or so. As a result of my folks' parenting style we all 3 get on very well with them as adults. This is something that has affected both me and Mr weepiper's attitudes to disciplining our own kids. 




			
				lyra_kitten said:
			
		

> What cemented my vague desire not to smack the sproglet was the one time that I did.     I was soooooo fucking irritated by her throwing food off her high chair tray a few months ago that I slapped her little hand (she would have been about 15 months), and the next day she did the same thing again, watching me with the weirdest expression on her face, then as soon as she'd done it, she slapped her _own_ hand.  I felt like such a piece of shit. .



You've just described EXACTLY what happened the one time I really lost my temper with little weepiper, probably at about the same age, except with her it was persistently turning on the taps in the bathroom and playing with the water that made me lose it (our hot water gets scalding hot). More than anything it made me realise that (at this sort of age anyway) it just doesn't work. I had to find another way of stopping her do it. 

And it's not like she's that easy to look after either, I can think of several times where she's wound me up so much I've had to go into another room and hit things to avoid doing it to her. Parenting is bloody hard work sometimes and I'm sure it's going to get more so as she gets older, cleverer and better at pushing my buttons.


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## Reg Perrin (Aug 20, 2005)

I'm a parent of an 18 year old and a 12 year old. I also came from a Catholic family of 12 kids, my parents were a teacher and a policeman. I'm a trained Teacher and a Social worker. Nothing bugs me more than quietly spoken therapists.


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## lyra_k (Aug 20, 2005)

weepiper said:
			
		

> I'm sure it's going to get more so as she gets older, cleverer and better at pushing my buttons.



But looking on the bright side, hopefully we'll get cleverer at it too, eh?


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## madzone (Aug 20, 2005)

Masseuse said:
			
		

> Madzone!  Come on now gel, not like you to take comfort in other's misery.


But she wasn't miserable   
Not all sex workers are victims - some are actually happy with it, especially the end of the market that she was at. And I may have been over - egging the pudding somewhat wth my 'addict' comment. She was going through shit-loads of the stuff but I couldn't say if she was addicted or not.


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## madzone (Aug 20, 2005)

weepiper said:
			
		

> This pretty much describes Mr weepiper's childhood. His mother regularly lost her temper with him over tiny things and had screaming rows at him (still does actually) then expects everything to go back to nicey nicey ten minutes afterwards when she's calmed down. Some of the things she's said to him have made me want to cry for him  He can't cope properly with it now and he's 33, so god knows what it must have been like as a child. AFAIK she never hit him as a child although his father did on several memorable occasions.





That's not what I said though. I wasn't talking about losing your temper over minor things and then expecting everything to go back to normal.
The trouble with parenting threads is that poeple take extreme circumstances to describe what they think other poeple mean.

I give up


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## madzone (Aug 20, 2005)

Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> If she's a coke addict hooker, the street corner is only a matter of time.


No it's not Johnny. Do you get the Daily Mail in Canada?


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Aug 21, 2005)

madzone said:
			
		

> No it's not Johnny. Do you get the Daily Mail in Canada?



No, but we have drug addicts here. I know women who ended up on steet corners as a result of a coke addiction.


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## madzone (Aug 21, 2005)

Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> No, but we have drug addicts here. I know women who ended up on steet corners as a result of a coke addiction.


And it would be churlish of me to sugest that the situation doesn't exist. However, by the same token not all sex workers are drug addled victims and not all drug addled victims are sex workers. In this particular instance the woman in question was actually fairly happy. I also met a woman who had moved over from a latin american country and who was a highly trained professional. She needed money fast whilst she was here and she turned to selling sex for a year or so. She was really good at it, made shitloads of money and walked away with some funny stories and no scars.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Aug 21, 2005)

madzone said:
			
		

> And it would be churlish of me to sugest that the situation doesn't exist. However, by the same token not all sex workers are drug addled victims and not all drug addled victims are sex workers. In this particular instance the woman in question was actually fairly happy. I also met a woman who had moved over from a latin american country and who was a highly trained professional. She needed money fast whilst she was here and she turned to selling sex for a year or so. She was really good at it, made shitloads of money and walked away with some funny stories and no scars.



Sure, but you said this particular girl was both addicted to coke, and a prostitute. From what I've observed, that combination often leads to a downward spiral. The drugs and the hours you keep affect your looks, and your looks affect where you work and how much you can charge.


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## madzone (Aug 21, 2005)

Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> Sure, but you said this particular girl was both addicted to coke, and a prostitute. From what I've observed, that combination often leads to a downward spiral. The drugs and the hours you keep affect your looks, and your looks affect where you work and how much you can charge.


I didn't say prostitute - I said call girl


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## winterinmoscow (Aug 24, 2005)

This week's looks a bit of a mission for supernanny.

makes me glad I don't have kids...


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## Stobart Stopper (Aug 25, 2005)

My son was never like that, ever. I always had a houseful of kids but he never behaved like a monster at that age.

He just saved it up for now!


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