# Today, I went deep inside the Camberwell Submarine!



## editor (Apr 13, 2007)

Pictures and report to come!


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 13, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Pictures and report to come!




 

Diving?  Isle of Wight?


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## editor (Apr 13, 2007)

Minnie_the_Minx said:
			
		

> Diving?  Isle of Wight?


Not diving. And it's Camberwell, SE5.

I descended about 30 feet to the bottom.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 13, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Not diving. And it's Camberwell, SE5.
> 
> I descended about 30 feet to the bottom.




 

Never heard of it.  Feel free to enlighten me


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## editor (Apr 13, 2007)

Minnie_the_Minx said:
			
		

> Never heard of it.  Feel free to enlighten me


Soon come!

Although I've just noticed that despite being known as the Camberwell Submarine, it's actually in SW9.


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## potential (Apr 13, 2007)

myatts field, thingy in the middle of the road ???
its a big air vent innit ?


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## lang rabbie (Apr 13, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Pictures and report to come!



What a tease you are 

[/Green with envy]


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 13, 2007)

lang rabbie said:
			
		

> What a tease you are
> 
> [/Green with envy]




Isn't he.  Now we're going have to sit here twiddling our thumbs in anticipation and I still don't know what he's talking about


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## editor (Apr 13, 2007)

Ladies and Gentlemen - meet the Camberwell Submarine!

















Full story here: http://www.urban75.org/london/camberwell-submarine.html


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 13, 2007)

So now I know.  Can't say I've even seen it.

Where's the periscope?

and will that worker who let you in now get the sack?


Your next challenge is to get inside the Michael Faraday Memorial.


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## Crispy (Apr 13, 2007)

Wicked


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## editor (Apr 13, 2007)

Crispy said:
			
		

> Wicked


I was dead lucky. There was a bloke working inside and I asked him if I could take a look inside - and he was happy to take me all around the place!


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## lang rabbie (Apr 13, 2007)

I thought Mrs M reckoned on some previous thread that the boiler house was no longer in use because the flats now had individual central heating


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## editor (Apr 13, 2007)

lang rabbie said:
			
		

> I thought Mrs M reckoned on some previous thread that the boiler house was no longer in use because the flats now had individual central heating


They were definitely working when I was in there - and there was quite a wind coming off the fans too.


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## WouldBe (Apr 13, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> They were definitely working when I was in there - and there was quite a wind coming off the fans too.


How can the council remove the vent(s) then


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## editor (Apr 13, 2007)

WouldBe said:
			
		

> How can the council remove the vent(s) then


I guess it wouldn't be that hard to come up with a design a little less intrusive. Or maybe they're not using so many boilers now so don't need the industrial scale cooling?


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## lang rabbie (Apr 13, 2007)

One thing that's puzzled me each time when cycling through the area is where are the stop-taps at street level for oil tankers to fill up the fuel tank


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## editor (Apr 13, 2007)

lang rabbie said:
			
		

> One thing that's puzzled me each time when cycling through the area is where are the stop-taps at street level for oil tankers to fill up the fuel tank


It's fuelled by "high pressure gas."


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## ska invita (Apr 14, 2007)

Enjoy your photo pages ed. Can i recommend coming up to Horniman museum and gardens on a sunny day for a little pic feature? Gardens and views are spectacular and theres a fair amount of funny peeps out on a hot day to snap at...


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## editor (Apr 14, 2007)

I've been to the Horniman a few times and have got some photos somewhere too, but maybe another trip could be in order.


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## han (Apr 14, 2007)

Wow! Brill pics, ec  

I cycle past that thing on the way to work and have often wondered what it is.
It looks vast inside!

It would be nice if it was painted, to look like the loch ness monster, or something....


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## zygote (Apr 14, 2007)

han said:
			
		

> It would be nice if it was painted, to look like the loch ness monster, or something....


What colour _is_ the Loch Ness monster?


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## likesfish (Apr 14, 2007)

same colour as the boathouse at Hereford obviously


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## T & P (Apr 14, 2007)

Though I'm not a fan of concrete structures I've always had a soft spot for the 'Camberwell submarine' (didn't know it was called that). Worth preserving IMO.


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## editor (Apr 14, 2007)

T & P said:
			
		

> Though I'm not a fan of concrete structures I've always had a soft spot for the 'Camberwell submarine'


Well, it is wonderfully daft!


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## London_Calling (Apr 14, 2007)

Finally ! A boiler room, then.

Everyone I've ever spoken to about it has been totally baffled, except those who assumed it was a vent for the tube (forgetting that's about  1 1/2 mile away).

Still no idea why they vented it in the middle of a dual carraigeway, or with such a curious design. 

A boiler room FFS !

Nice opportunism, btw.


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## Maggot (Apr 14, 2007)

That is well cool!

Glad to see it looks like a submarine inside too.


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## guinnessdrinker (Apr 14, 2007)

London_Calling said:
			
		

> Finally ! A boiler room, then.
> 
> Everyone I've ever spoken to about it has been totally baffled, except those who assumed it was a vent for the tube (forgetting that's about  1 1/2 mile away).
> 
> ...



apparently the story was that there was going to be an extension from the Northen line from Kennington down south toward Streatham, passing this way, which may have been the origin of the tube myth. and the man who told me that it was a defence room was well known for his conspiracy theory, only slightly more believable than a certain musical poster here.


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## guinnessdrinker (Apr 14, 2007)

Minnie_the_Minx said:
			
		

> So now I know.  Can't say I've even seen it.
> 
> Where's the periscope?
> 
> ...



any good conspiracy theories about the memorial?


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## Maggot (Apr 14, 2007)

. . . The Aphex Twin lives there!


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## lang rabbie (Apr 14, 2007)

guinnessdrinker said:
			
		

> any good conspiracy theories about the memorial?



It's in the name stupid.      It's actually a giant Faraday Cage.    

For contingency planning against a high-altitude nuclear blast that would have acted as an E-bomb - generating a poweful  electomagnetic pulse that would cripple all electronic systems - a "B" team of  "top people" would have been inside the Memorial, along with a back-up generator and communications kit that wasn't attached to any external cabling.


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## London_Calling (Apr 14, 2007)

Looking at the scale of the kit down below, I presume now the surface vents must be on hinges or otherwise open out so replacement boilers, etc. can be lowered on cranes?


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## editor (Apr 14, 2007)

I didn't see any hinge like openings there, but I guess there must be something.


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## guinnessdrinker (Apr 14, 2007)

lang rabbie said:
			
		

> It's in the name stupid.      It's actually a giant Faraday Cage.
> 
> For contingency planning against a high-altitude nuclear blast that would have acted as an E-bomb - generating a poweful  electomagnetic pulse that would cripple all electronic systems - a "B" team of  "top people" would have been inside the Memorial, along with a back-up generator and communications kit that wasn't attached to any external cabling.



so there must be a secret tunnel between the submarine and the cage, then...


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## The Pious Pawn (Apr 23, 2007)

interesting thread , its good when you find out what something really is when you've been dreaming up allsorts of things about it . I remember when i was a kid i use to go on bike rides with my dad over the hills , We would come across this concrete box with a metal tube coming out . I use to think it was a pillbox from the war ( I swear me dad told me it was ) i was up the same place a few years ago and my dream were shattered when i discovered it was a old farming thing for storing water  .


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## The Pious Pawn (Apr 23, 2007)

London_Calling said:
			
		

> Looking at the scale of the kit down below, I presume now the surface vents must be on hinges or otherwise open out so replacement boilers, etc. can be lowered on cranes?




You would replace the whole boiler , Imho youd only replace the bits which fail on a insurance mdt test . They last a good few years as well.


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## Structaural (Apr 23, 2007)

Well I never - that's what it is! That's been a mystery to me for 20 odd years.


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## TopCat (Apr 23, 2007)

Excellent! I wonderd for years what that thing was...


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## gaijingirl (Apr 23, 2007)

Wonderful - I cycle past that all the time and always wondered.

And now I have a pictorial clue as to what "gubbins" are too - although still don't know what they actually do - will have to google!

Nice report.


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## zoltan (Apr 26, 2007)

lang rabbie said:
			
		

> It's in the name stupid.      It's actually a giant Faraday Cage.
> 
> For contingency planning against a high-altitude nuclear blast that would have acted as an E-bomb - generating a poweful  electomagnetic pulse that would cripple all electronic systems - a "B" team of  "top people" would have been inside the Memorial, along with a back-up generator and communications kit that wasn't attached to any external cabling.



Wot ? so the E&C box is part of a civil defence network thats designed to look like a memorial ?

wots in the middle of the box ?


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## ringo (Apr 27, 2007)

Brilliant, always wondered what was down there, ta.


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## Gixxer1000 (Apr 28, 2007)

"A recent Lambeth Planning statement proposed removing one side of the dual carriageway and removing the "submarine vent shaft.""


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## lights.out.london (Apr 28, 2007)

Top thread.


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## Loupylou (May 1, 2007)

T & P said:
			
		

> Though I'm not a fan of concrete structures I've always had a soft spot for the 'Camberwell submarine' (didn't know it was called that). Worth preserving IMO.



It's not - it's called the 'Concrete Submarine' (i live right near it) & the area is Brixton. 
Other than that small gripe, I;ve always wanted to know what it looks like so thanks for being so intrepid........

in *BRIXTON *!


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## editor (May 2, 2007)

Loupylou said:
			
		

> It's not - it's called the 'Concrete Submarine' (i live right near it) & the area is Brixton.


That's what the bloke who was working there told me it was called. It's also called that in The Smoke magazine.


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## loud 1 (May 2, 2007)

it looks like a futuristic battle truck from an 80's sci-fi film!

cool tho init!


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## Brixton Hatter (May 4, 2007)

nice one Ed, by using your wits and getting inside to take photos you have provided a valuable service to so many people! I live about a minute away from the submarine and always assumed it was some sort of air vent for the tube - thought the Kennington tube sidings were underneath or something. I emailed the link to your page to a few mates and it's totally made their day. 

I am really jealous.


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## J77 (May 4, 2007)

What are the boilers for?


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## guinnessdrinker (May 4, 2007)

J77 said:
			
		

> What are the boilers for?



the editor's link at post 9 says it is to heat the local estates.


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## lang rabbie (Dec 15, 2008)

The Camberwell Submarine is now a musical instrument 




			
				Will Montgomery said:
			
		

> In spring 2008 I made some recordings of the machinery in the boiler room. These have been organised into a composition. I have filtered some of the sounds but no digital processing has been used.



http://www.touchradio.org.uk/touch_radio_36.html


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## HackneyE9 (Dec 15, 2008)

Fascinating.

Although I think for completeness' sake you should have included a snap or two of the luck estates that get their cockles warmed by said submarine!


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## Orang Utan (Dec 9, 2010)

i spotted it earlier today in that weird zone that's neither brixton nor camberwell.
looks like part of the set from fritz lang's metropolis:













what is it?


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## Crispy (Dec 9, 2010)

Heating plant for the council estates
http://www.urban75.org/london/camberwell-submarine.html


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## Orang Utan (Dec 9, 2010)

aaah! ta, so it's basically the roof of a subterranean municipal boiler room. i'm disappointed for some reason.


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## Crispy (Dec 9, 2010)

It looks amazing doesn't it?


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## Orang Utan (Dec 9, 2010)

it does, i was wanting it to be aphex twin's gaff or summat though


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Dec 9, 2010)

It's like a hard edged submarine


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## Orang Utan (Dec 9, 2010)

it's dead odd round there, weird bit of south london


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## ringo (Dec 10, 2010)

No it isn't! Freak.


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## Me76 (Dec 10, 2010)

I used to go to school (well bunk off) round there and we used to call it the Submarine.


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## editor (Dec 10, 2010)

I was well chuffed to be invited in for a look.


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## Brixton Hatter (Dec 10, 2010)

Crispy said:


> Heating plant for the council estates
> http://www.urban75.org/london/camberwell-submarine.html


 
That's what they WANT you to think. It's actually a nuclear bunker for Lambeth Council / secret underground tube line extension / mind control experiment etc.

They've applied for planning permission to extend the chimneys by four meters (this is actually true.)


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## Brixton Hatter (Dec 10, 2010)

Orang Utan said:


> it's dead odd round there, weird bit of south london


 
Not really. It's a great bit of Brixton IMO. 10 mins walk to the high street but really green and quiet. Myatts Field park round the corner. The Minet Library at the end of the road. Jamm a 2 mins stagger away. I love it here.


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## Orang Utan (Dec 10, 2010)

it just doesn't 'feel' like brixton to me. it's feels odd, probably onlu cos i rarely set foot in that part. is it even brixton? isn't it camberwell? or is it neither? that's why i find it odd. the street arrangements are odd too. easy to get lost - lots of streets that go nowhere.


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## wtfftw (Dec 10, 2010)

Brixton Hatter said:


> Not really. It's a great bit of Brixton IMO. 10 mins walk to the high street but really green and quiet. Myatts Field park round the corner. The Minet Library at the end of the road. Jamm a 2 mins stagger away. I love it here.


 *likes*  aww. I miss it.


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## wtfftw (Dec 10, 2010)

I knew it would be that thing without opening the thread. 

I wanted to convert it into cartoon underground HQ / home for me and my friends when I was little.


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## Brixton Hatter (Dec 10, 2010)

Orang Utan said:


> it just doesn't 'feel' like brixton to me. it's feels odd, probably onlu cos i rarely set foot in that part. is it even brixton? isn't it camberwell? or is it neither? that's why i find it odd. the street arrangements are odd too. easy to get lost - lots of streets that go nowhere.


 
I know what you mean. I thought it was a bit of a strange, out-of-the-way area before I moved here (I used to cycle through on the backstreet cycle route.) But now I know it's Brixton's hidden gem 

Where I live is SW9 and it's definitely Brixton because Brixton is closer than Stockwell, Kennington, Oval or Camberwell. But SE5 starts at the end of my street.


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## Crispy (Dec 10, 2010)

Brixton Hatter said:


> Not really. It's a great bit of Brixton IMO. 10 mins walk to the high street but really green and quiet. Myatts Field park round the corner. The Minet Library at the end of the road. Jamm a 2 mins stagger away. I love it here.


 


Orang Utan said:


> it just doesn't 'feel' like brixton to me. it's feels odd, probably onlu cos i rarely set foot in that part. is it even brixton? isn't it camberwell? or is it neither? that's why i find it odd. the street arrangements are odd too. easy to get lost - lots of streets that go nowhere.


 
I agree with you both.

The triangle of Brixton Road, Coldharbour Lane and Camberwell New Road does lose definition in the middle though. Cambrixtoval?


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## miss minnie (Dec 10, 2010)

Orang Utan said:


> it just doesn't 'feel' like brixton to me. it's feels odd, probably onlu cos i rarely set foot in that part. is it even brixton? isn't it camberwell? or is it neither? that's why i find it odd. the street arrangements are odd too. easy to get lost - lots of streets that go nowhere.


Went on a tour of 'North Brixton' held by the Brixton Society last summer and the route was Brixton Road, Loughborough Road, Ackerman Road past the submarine, Patmos Road, Vassal Road and back down to the Oval (where we had started).


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## Brixton Hatter (Dec 10, 2010)

Orang Utan said:


> the street arrangements are odd too. easy to get lost - lots of streets that go nowhere.


 yeah, there's quite a few estates and small areas of new housing around here. I believe the area was bombed heavily in WW2 and there was also extensive slum clearance in the 60s, which has resulted in strange road layouts etc. The area is gonna change massively again over the next few years now that the council has decided to rebuild Myatts North estate on top of Mostyn Gardens.


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## Brixton Hatter (Dec 10, 2010)

miss minnie said:


> Went on a tour of 'North Brixton' held by the Brixton Society last summer and the route was Brixton Road, Loughborough Road, Ackerman Road past the submarine, Patmos Road, Vassal Road and back down to the Oval.


 
'North Brixton' - I quite like that. Mind you, it's an estate agent's dream round here: we could be 'Brixton', 'North Brixton', 'South Kennington', 'Camberwell Borders', 'Loughborough Junction' 'Vassal ward' whatever you want really! 

Today I'm gonna call it 'Brixton Park Gardens' just for the crack.


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## ShiftyBagLady (Dec 10, 2010)

ringo said:


> No it isn't! Freak.


 
+1


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## quimcunx (Dec 10, 2010)

wtfftw said:


> I knew it would be that thing without opening the thread.
> 
> I wanted to convert it into cartoon underground HQ / home for me and my friends when I was little.


 
Aww.  I want a teletubbyland bunker.


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## miss minnie (Dec 10, 2010)

Brixton Hatter said:


> 'North Brixton' - I quite like that. Mind you, it's an estate agent's dream round here: we could be 'Brixton', 'North Brixton', 'South Kennington', 'Camberwell Borders', 'Loughborough Junction' 'Vassal ward' whatever you want really!
> 
> Today I'm gonna call it 'Brixton Park Gardens' just for the crack.


Tomorrow call it Kennington Park South


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## Brixton Hatter (Dec 10, 2010)

quimcunx said:


> Aww.  I want a teletubbyland bunker.


 
funnily enough, just across the road from the submarine is Mostyn Gardens, where there actually ARE teletubbyland-style grassy mounds etc. Strange landscaping!


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## wtfftw (Dec 10, 2010)

Brixton Hatter said:


> funnily enough, just across the road from the submarine is Mostyn Gardens, where there actually ARE teletubbyland-style grassy mounds etc. Strange landscaping!


 yup. Used to meet my best mate at the top of a hill. It was midway between us.   /nostalgia


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## pogofish (Dec 10, 2010)

Brixton Hatter said:


> That's what they WANT you to think. It's actually a nuclear bunker for Lambeth Council / secret underground tube line extension / mind control experiment etc.



Nope - Because of their "Nuclear Free" aspirations in the 80s, Lambeth never established a bunker of their own.  Before that, Lambeth was just grouped-in with the rest of South London for overall civil defence.

This place is the nearest Lambeth ever came to having one:
http://www.subbrit.org.uk/rsg/sites/p/pear_tree_house/index.html


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## zenie (Dec 10, 2010)

Brixton Hatter said:


> 'North Brixton' - I quite like that. Mind you, it's an estate agent's dream round here: we could be 'Brixton', 'North Brixton', 'South Kennington', 'Camberwell Borders', 'Loughborough Junction' 'Vassal ward' whatever you want really!
> 
> Today I'm gonna call it 'Brixton Park Gardens' just for the crack.


 
Angell Town I've always known it as  

And yet you want it to be  a bridge too far, or some kind of bunker


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## Brixton Hatter (Dec 10, 2010)

zenie said:


> Angell Town I've always known it as


I always thought Angell Town was just the estate...the one they rebuilt? (Not that it really matters!)


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## miss minnie (Dec 10, 2010)

Brixton Hatter said:


> I always thought Angell Town was just the estate...the one they rebuilt? (Not that it really matters!)


Haven't had an A-Z for years but I was surprised to see in mine that "Angell Town" was stamped across the general area, not in reference to a particular estate.  The online maps don't seem to know about it though.


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## Orang Utan (Dec 10, 2010)

how is angell town pronounced? like angel or ANG-ELL?


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## miss minnie (Dec 10, 2010)

Orang Utan said:


> how is angell town pronounced? like angel or ANG-ELL?


Only ever heard it pronounced 'Angel' myself.


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## miss minnie (Dec 10, 2010)

Here you go, can just about make out 'Angell Town' on this old map:







'Angell' is just off the left border of the map, 'Town' is on the left of the map.


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## miss minnie (Dec 10, 2010)

And Hidden London has a (brief) page about Angell Town


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## Brixton Hatter (Dec 11, 2010)

thanks minnie, interesting stuff.


> Angell Town was built up in the early nineteenth century as a desirable estate for the new middle classes.


he he


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## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Dec 12, 2010)

Brixton Hatter said:


> thanks minnie, interesting stuff.
> 
> he he


 
Minnie's map is part of the nineteenth century Booth's poverty maps I think. The red bits indicate well off middle class people so the whole area was quite upmarket at that time.


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## miss minnie (Dec 12, 2010)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> Minnie's map is part of the nineteenth century Booth's poverty maps I think. The red bits indicate well off middle class people so the whole area was quite upmarket at that time.


It is indeed Booth's poverty map:


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## wemakeyousoundb (Dec 13, 2010)

My favourite night time tripping detour


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## Brixton Hatter (Dec 13, 2010)

wemakeyousoundb said:


> My favourite night time tripping detour


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## zenie (Dec 13, 2010)

Brixton Hatter said:


> I always thought Angell Town was just the estate...the one they rebuilt? (Not that it really matters!)



Just what people from that area called it to me, think there is 'Angell Ward' for voting too isn't there?



Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> Minnie's map is part of the nineteenth century Booth's poverty maps I think. The red bits indicate well off middle class people so the whole area was quite upmarket at that time.



People forget Brixton and Stockwell used to be quite rich til comparatively recently.


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## ringo (Dec 13, 2010)

I think of that bit as Angell Town or Myatts Field. The area in the triangle of Brixton Rd / Coldharbour Lane / Camberwell New Road is too big for one ward name. Down by Coldharbour Lane we're happy with Loughborough Junction.

A lot of people still think of it as a dangerous area, but Angell Town has been completely rebuilt since the days when it was known locally as Gun Town. Similar with Loughborough Junction. Not sure how it is to live in Loughborough Estate itself but the environs have been done up a lot. Flaxman Road and a lot of the other roads full of older housing stock have gradually been done up one house at a time and are now starting to resemble the distinctly gentrified streets surrounding the wonderful Myatts Field Park. I just wish I could afford to live in one of them.


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## se5 (Dec 20, 2010)

zenie said:


> Just what people from that area called it to me, think there is 'Angell Ward' for voting too isn't there?



I think Angell Ward was abolished before the 2002 elections (or maybe earlier) - this area is now Vassall Ward - see map at http://www.lambeth.gov.uk/NR/rdonlyres/3ACDCD8C-AEFC-48CD-AE67-16D451798F94/0/VassallWardMap.pdf or Coldharbour Ward (http://www.lambeth.gov.uk/NR/rdonlyres/1E2A3F7A-B5D4-4FB9-B859-90AF4501FD44/0/ColdharbourWardMap.pdf)

I live in the SE5 bit of Vassall Ward and to me its definitely Camberwell!


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## wtfftw (Dec 20, 2010)

It's a weird one. Also because the borough borders aren't the same as the postcodes. Some of SE5 is lambeth.

And then where camberwell new road and brixton road meet - is that oval?


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## Mrs Magpie (Dec 21, 2010)

wtfftw said:


> I knew it would be that thing without opening the thread.


Me too. I first came across it in early 1981 when I asked for directions and was told "Keep going past the submarine and then take the first left."


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## se5 (Dec 26, 2010)

wtfftw said:


> It's a weird one. Also because the borough borders aren't the same as the postcodes. Some of SE5 is lambeth.
> 
> And then where camberwell new road and brixton road meet - is that oval?


 
If we were being pedantic I would say that Oval is nothing - the name of a cricket ground and the nearby tube station only - the area around Oval tube station is Kennington or Stockwell but realistically people do refer to "living in Oval" so I guess it is.

And something like 25% of the SE5 postcode is in Lambeth - its just that its all largely residential and so doesnt register as much as Camberwell town centre etc (Southwark)


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## wemakeyousoundb (Dec 30, 2010)

ha
postcodes and their mysteries


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## editor (Apr 15, 2013)

It's getting the new chimneys fitted:






http://www.brixtonbuzz.com/2013/04/camberwell-submarine-on-akerman-road-sw9-gets-futuristic-refit/


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## nagapie (Apr 15, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> it's dead odd round there, weird bit of south london


 
That's where I work.


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## editor (Sep 2, 2014)

Update here. The chimneys have now been extended by 4 metres, although most of the submarine is now hidden behind smug self-promoting billboards for the Oval Quarter.

http://www.brixtonbuzz.com/2014/09/...swallowed-up-by-the-oval-quarter-development/


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## editor (Sep 2, 2014)

*threads merged


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## cuppa tee (Sep 2, 2014)

editor said:


> most of the submarine is now hidden behind smug self-promoting billboards for the Oval Quarter.



The billboards had been modified with graffiti from a group called the _Crawshay Liberation Fron_t over the weekend with the tagline "no jail for MFN residents"
its been scrubbed off now, no doubt in preparation for the hordes of potential buyers coming in for Phase Two aka Parkside


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## editor (Sep 2, 2014)

cuppa tee said:


> The billboards had been modified with graffiti from a group called the _Crawshay Liberation Fron_t over the weekend with the tagline "no jail for MFN residents"
> its been scrubbed off now, no doubt in preparation for the hordes of potential buyers coming in for Phase Two aka Parkside


Damn! I would have liked to have seen those. I loathe those billboards.


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## SarfLondoner (Sep 2, 2014)

editor said:


> I was dead lucky. There was a bloke working inside and I asked him if I could take a look inside - and he was happy to take me all around the place!


What a result.


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## editor (Oct 30, 2014)

It got into the Guardian yesterday 
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/oct/29/skatepark-essex-listed-british-structures


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## ricbake (Oct 31, 2014)

Reading that article it looks like who ever wrote it drew most of the words from this Thread.

Whilst the submarine was being refurbished, they built a temporary boiler house in containers on the corner of Mostyn Road, it feeds the Myatts Field South Estate and some of the pre this development bits of Myatts Field North, put in hundreds of yards of heavily insulated pipe work.
Ackerman Road was a dual carriage way because it was going to be part of the Brixton Bypass. I understand that the Barrier Block, Southwyck House was to "back on" to the continuation of that Bypass.


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## CH1 (Oct 31, 2014)

ricbake said:


> Reading that article it looks like who ever wrote it drew most of the words from this Thread.
> 
> Whilst the submarine was being refurbished, they built a temporary boiler house in containers on the corner of Mostyn Road, it feeds the Myatts Field South Estate and some of the pre this development bits of Myatts Field North, put in hundreds of yards of heavily insulated pipe work.
> Ackerman Road was a dual carriage way because it was going to be part of the Brixton Bypass. I understand that the Barrier Block, Southwyck House was to "back on" to the continuation of that Bypass.


Which Brixton bypass would that be?

The B Ring Road, designed in 1943 but never implemented is the reason for large swathes of south London in Brixton and Camberwell passing into public ownership (and being squatted in some cases). This scheme seems to be the reason for the specific south-facing and apparently bleak north facing aspect of the Barrier Block. 




I can imagine there might well have been a subsequent north-south Brixton bypass which never got finished. Do you, or anybody else haver any more details on this?


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## ricbake (Oct 31, 2014)

Can't find anything more about a North South Brixton Bypass, but Ted Hollamby the Lambeth Borough Architect was responsible for the Barrier Block/Southwyck House, Myatts Field North and the Camberwell Submarine which I think I have also seen somewhere referred to as "HMS Hollamby" .


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## stockwelljonny (Sep 8, 2017)

Interesting piece from Inside Housing about the Camberwell Submarine heating centre and pfi shenanigans.

*The story of the Camberwell Submarine*
Insight 19/02/16 2:58 PM by Keith Cooper
A private finance initiative deal in south London was meant to retrofit an ageing communal heating system and save tenents money. _Keith Cooper_ investigates what happened next






The Camberwell Submarine, the concrete chimney of an underground energy centre on a Lambeth housing estate, is aptly nicknamed.

The periscope-like vent is at the centre of a serious skirmish between the south London local authority and many of its residents.

The battle is about a most basic resource - heating and hot water - and how it’s supplied to two adjoining estates: Myatts Field South (MFS) and Myatts Field North (MFN), where the submarine sits. The issues arose following a regeneration scheme that has changed the face of the estate. Given that the government is pushing for the large-scale regeneration of the UK’s housing estates, the lessons from Myatts Field will be of relevance to scores more schemes in the coming years. It acts as a clear reminder to landlords that not only do they have to think about tenure and the physical environment, but also how services are procured and provided if they don’t want to end up in hostile dialogue with residents.

*Fuel poverty*
In the case of Myatts Field, Lambeth Council has ended up in a protracted battle with residents, who have criticised its management of the regeneration and say their bills have increased as a result.

“These properties are not designed for single boilers.”

Lucy Williams, chair, Myatts Field South TRA

The south-siders accuse Lambeth of pushing tenants on low and unstable incomes into fuel poverty. Around a third of the 393 households on MFS are resisting having individual boilers installed, after they were disconnected from the energy centre and denied access to the refitted submarine. They are campaigning for their own communal heater but are living on borrowed time. Lambeth plans to switch off their temporary communal supply this summer and is threatening the 119 or so refuseniks with legal action.






Source: Mike Urban/Brixtonbuzz.com

The district heating system boiler at Myatts Field looks like a submarine

But the council is facing a war on two fronts with tenants on the 477-home MFN and the new ‘Oval Quarter’, a development of 503 private homes being built around MFN. They are all hooked up to the refitted submarine but complain Lambeth has tied them to an onerous deal with energy giant E.ON from which they cannot escape for decades.

*Trouble in the south*
So how did these battles reach boiling point? And what are the lessons for other landlords?

The trouble on the south is traceable to 2010 and a private finance initiative (PFI) project to regenerate MFN.

Under the PFI, a consortium called Regenter would replace 305 rundown council and leaseholder homes, do up 172 others and build 187 new ones for sale. It would refit the submarine with a combined heat and power (CHP) plant to supply both estates, say council papers approving the plan in March 2010.

The refit appeared a welcome benefit of the PFI, as the submarine’s ageing KC1 heater neared the end of its life. While then supplying the south estate, homes on the north had been disconnected and switched to 
individual boilers in the 1990s.

Lambeth and Regenter duly negotiated with the MFS tenants’ and residents’ association (TRA) to connect the estate to the submarine. A budget of £4.5m was agreed to lay the pipework and replace radiators, according to the TRA’s then chair, Lou Weston. Lambeth and Regenter confirm discussions took place.

But within months of approving the 2010 plan, Lambeth appeared to rethink its intention to connect MFS to the refitted submarine. Sometime between April and November, the authority asked consultancy, the Brinson Staniland Partnership (BSP), to explore alternatives for MFS.

The resulting report examined three choices: a dedicated communal heater; individual boilers or a mixture of both. Connection to the submarine was not an option.

BSP’s conclusion that December infuriated residents. It recommended the option of individual boilers for its “lowest capital cost”, despite describing a dedicated CHP plant as the “most efficient option”.

In 2011, the final business case (FBC) for the PFI, obtained under the Freedom of Information Act, indicates why Lambeth pursued these alternative options at that time. While the original rebuild and refurbishment programme was unchanged, the number of private homes in the PFI was almost trebled from 187 to 503. This left the energy centre without capacity, the FBC says.

The next year, the south-siders were connected to a temporary heater and disconnected from the submarine, which was handed to Regenter for the refit.






Source: Mike Urban/Brixtonbuzz.com

Inside the ‘submarine’

By this time, E.ON had been awarded an exclusive contract to refit the submarine and use it to supply gas heating and hot water to MFN for 40 years. This arrangement promisingly pledged “substantial reductions in energy costs”, so says the PFI’s final business case in 2011.

In 2013, a separate report about MFS heating options, by Astec Consultant Services, also recommended individual boilers, claiming it was “more than likely that most residents will be financially better off” with them.

*Contesting claims*
This claim is strongly contested by the Myatts Field South TRA. Its chair, Lucy Williams, claims correctly that the consultants’ cost calculations do not account for the estate’s draughty physical structure or the considerable heating effect of the communal system pipework.

“These properties are not designed for single boilers,” Ms Williams says. “When the communal heating is switched off, the whole estate will become like a graveyard. Heating costs are going to escalate.” Lambeth confirms the estate structure and the heating effect of communal pipes are not factored into consultants’ calculations.

The TRA says tenants will struggle with individual boilers and higher bills after so long on a fixed-rate communal supply. Its concerns are confirmed by several residents.

Karker Sdqi, a 24-year-old Kurdish refugee from the war-torn Iraqi city of Mosul, who agreed to an individual boiler soon after he moved in, says he never switches the heating on. His monthly bill of around £50 is less than the £56 fixed fee he paid on the communal. But as a chef, picking up ad hoc agency work, he worries about covering increases. “I wear a lot of clothes and use an electric fan. I always worry about how much I am spending. Before, I wasn’t.”

Sylvia Fulwood, a 91-year-old resident who has lived on the estate since 1981 and whose home is on the communal heater, is worried about switching. She says she “would use all my pension to pay for the heating” if forced to switch to an individual boiler.

Concerns about fuel poverty are recognised by Lambeth, which is encouraging struggling tenants to seek help. It aims to secure cheaper energy deals for tenants with utility companies. “Court action has been taken as a last resort to enable us to complete the works before the old communal system fails catastrophically,” the spokesperson adds. “Decaying pipework is leaking thousands of litres of water weekly.”

Lambeth told _Inside Housing_ that in 2014, E.ON “confirmed” its energy centre had the capacity to supply MFS but that this would require “major alterations” and a road closure to lay a new mains. “The benefits would be far outweighed by the substantial costs involved,” he adds. E.ON says it would be “happy to explore” extending the energy centre to MFS.

The TRA’s Ms Williams says it had not been informed about the possibility of connecting MFS to the submarine in 2014. It has been campaigning for Lambeth to use the £4.5m funding, it says was agreed, to pay for a new permanent communal heater on the MFS estate. Lambeth says there is no “committed resource” agreed under the PFI deal for this purpose.

*High bills*
Meanwhile, on the other side of the estate, a number of tenants on MFN and the Oval Quarter are not happy either after being hooked up to the retrofitted submarine.

The fact that residents on both the north and south sides are unhappy despite the major work carried out, shows how important effective consultation is to the ultimate success of a scheme.

Papers seen by _Inside Housing_ reveal the energy plant installed by E.ON has been beset by problems of poor performance and complaints about high and unpredictable bills.

A 2015 report for the MFN project liaison group, established to keep tabs on the PFI, lists a range of problems from the preceding three months, resulting in a “poor level of service”.


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## stockwelljonny (Sep 8, 2017)

Part 2 -

Many residents received inaccurately inflated estimated bills because of problems with “automatic meters”, which were meant to beam readings directly to E.ON. Four in 10 were delivering erroneous figures, the report says.
The problems with automatic meters continued to at least last December, according to a letter by E.ON’s head of community energy, Jeremy Bungey. “We are… unable to guarantee one accurate bill a month,” it states.

MFN leaseholders and private residents on the Oval Quarter development are also upset about their monthly standing bill of £33 to cover boiler repairs and replacement costs.

*Tenants concerned*
Uzoamaka Okafor, chair of the MFN Residents’ Association and PFI Monitoring Board, told _Inside Housing_ tenants remain fed up with the service: “People are concerned about bills, they are so high and unpredictable. It is supposed to be sustainable energy, it is supposed to be cheaper, but I can’t see it.”

One tenant, Maria Cifuentes, says she no longer used the E.ON supply for heating, after receiving several monthly estimates in excess of £120. While these were reduced on appeal, she feels more in control of costs by using electric heaters.

“Many residents have been turning off their heating because they can’t afford the bill.”

Stuart Hodkinson, lecturer, University of Leeds

Lambeth responded to the TRA’s petition in February 2015, admitting there was “no opt out” for tenants in the 40-year contract.

In May, a fact sheet by Regenter suggested why tenants’ bills may appear high. E.ON’s gas tariff is “derived from the average gas tariffs of the big six suppliers”, it states. This average is then “multiplied by 1.25 to account for the efficiency difference” between its CHP and “traditional gas boilers”.

E.ON told _Inside Housing_ the multiplier was used as an “academic exercise” to compare its prices to the market, not to set them. The average bill across the estate was £580 a year, “compared favourably with the UK average” and was “considerably less” for social tenants as the council contributes towards their charges, a spokesperson added.

Stuart Hodkinson, a lecturer at the University of Leeds who was funded by the Economic and Social Research Council to investigate the PFI project, says he is sceptical about E.ON’s average bills figure.

“Many residents have been turning off their heating because they can’t afford the bill,” he adds. “They are being dispossessed of their consumer rights - forced to pay for a system that doesn’t work for them, has been unreliable and from which they cannot escape.”

An E.ON spokesperson admits to “initial problems” on the estate with billing accuracy. It had apologised to customers and “worked hard to rectify” issues. “We are seeing improvements in service levels,” he adds.

As the battles on MFN and MFS show, keeping residents warm when they are on low incomes is a serious consideration for social landlords pursuing regeneration plans. How they meet that challenge will be a key test of their commitment to tenants’ well-being.

*Hot under the collar: the troubles with district heating systems*
Ministers’ drive to rebuild scores of ‘sink estates’ runs alongside another to hook eight million homes up to district heating by 2050.

This big push for district heating systems is not without controversy, however.

A study of 59 systems by consumer champion Which? last year uncovered “significant dissatisfaction” among consumers. High prices were a widely held concern, the report, _Turning up the Heat_, found.

Lack of regulation of heat networks and being unable to switch supplier were cited as major issues.


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## Sea Star (Sep 8, 2017)

I used to live in the building that overlooks that submarine thingy. Always wondered what was going on with it? One of my neighbours used to reckon it was full of military equipment for in the event of an occurrence.


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## Gramsci (Sep 8, 2017)

stockwelljonny thanks for posting up inside housing article.

So the communal heating was transferred to Eon. Am I right that communal heating used to be run by Council? That is not run by private provider? If so I don't understand why Council couldn't keep running it. 

The other thing Im not clear on is CHP. Combined Heat and Power. I did think this was supposed to be the green way forward for local power and energy. So how did it all go wrong?

From reading the Inside housing article looks to me that the Council offloaded risk of providing heating to private provider. The end result that issues like dealing with  fuel poverty are no longer under Council control.  Other than giving advice.


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## Gramsci (Sep 8, 2017)

I cycle by the new build "Oval Quarter" every day. There is one block for sale on shared ownership that is still largely empty. I wonder if the heating problems have been putting people off.


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## editor (Sep 9, 2017)

Gramsci said:


> I cycle by the new build "Oval Quarter" every day.








"WHERE THE SMART MONEY BUYS"

That's one of the most hateful things I've ever seen in the area. Disgusting.


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## Gramsci (Sep 9, 2017)

Recent article from the Guardian:

The real cost of regeneration

Long but worth reading.

This was a PFI scheme. So unlikely to be done in precisely that way again. PFI were very New Labour. Putting private enterprise together with public authorities. Nu Labour really believed that was the way to go. And in Lambeth still do. See Pop and the Gym  libraries.

The article says that the PFI meant that the Council and private consortium ended up supporting each other. Seeing the residents as a problem to be managed.

The democratic accountability of the Council by residents was lost. ( Though I do think the article isn't quite right on the good old days of democratic accountability and now. The Council always was top down. At least back in the days of Kate Macintosh they built Council housing. But it's mistake to argue this was resident led development).

In theory ward Cllrs could have taken up issues. Notice the article makes no reference to Ward Cllrs. Rather telling and not a surprise to those who live in Lambeth. A one party Nu Labour state. Where Ward Cllrs can take the example of Cllr Rachel as what happens to Cllrs who  stick up for residents.

To add. One of the points the article puts forward well is that the outsourcing of ongoing provision and maintenance of services leads to no one being directly accountable. 

The example of Myatts Fields shows on local level weaknesses of the Nu Labour project. The neo liberal outlook that marrying public sector with private enterprise would optimise good social outcomes. There is nothing rarified or obscure about saying this. It's on local issues affecting people's lives directly that one can see how this system works. The mistake of Nu Labour was that you could get private big business to behave in way that is socially oriented. Business is there to make a profit. It's not there to produce good social outcomes. Nu Labour liked to present themselves as hard headed realists unlike supposedly old fashioned socialists like Corbyn. The opposite is the case.


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## Gramsci (Sep 9, 2017)

editor said:


> "WHERE THE SMART MONEY BUYS"
> 
> That's one of the most hateful things I've ever seen in the area. Disgusting.



On the private housing the Zoe Williams Guardian article has this to say:



> The head of Lambeth council, Lib Peck, can shed no light on these changes to the original deal. Peck said she had limited experience around Myatts Field at the beginning, and wasn’t involved with the PFI at the time. What we know is that, as a result of the £16.8m shortfall, Lambeth’s monthly repayments were hiked, and the repayment schedule was shortened from 30 to 25 years. To plug the gap left by that £16.8m cut, *Lambeth ended up gifting land worth at least £8m to Regenter. The council also allowed Regenter to increase the number of private homes in the development from 398 to 503 (*of which 146 would be “shared ownership”, a way of part-buying a flat you can’t afford outright, with a housing association). In return, Regenter would reduce its charges by £2.7m. Lambeth did get a share in the profit from sales of the new flats, but the details are commercially confidential.



Regenter are part of the private consortium set up to "regenerate" the estate. A consortium so complex that the person who Zoe interviews himself appears unclear who he represents.


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## Gramsci (Sep 10, 2017)

In the Guardian article Zoe Williams mentions an academic Stuart Hodkinson. He did research on the estate. Asking residents there views. As this was critical of the PFI project the consortium partner Regenter reported him to his university.

I googled him and found this academic paper by him on Council PFI schemes. Provides short history of how PFI started, the changes in Council housing and reasons why New Labour took on PFI. It's as the intro to the paper good background on history of PFI in Council housing. Not about MFN in detail. Interesting as it backs up what Zoe is saying. And critical of neo liberalism.


Myatts Field North, Chalcots Estate and Britain’s Failed PFI Housing Experiment | The People vs PFI


I doubt that Myatts Fields PFI will be replicated. One reason was that this will no longer attract central government funding. Under New Labour it did. New Labour were not keen on Council housing. They wanted to "de Municipalise" Council housing. If a Council did ALMO, stock transfer or PFI scheme then it would get government right off of debts and central government funding.

So project like Cressingham Garden is different. Not a full PFI scheme but still involving setting up a SPV (Special Purpose Vehicle). But some of the risks remain? ViolentPanda


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## ViolentPanda (Sep 10, 2017)

Gramsci said:


> In the Guardian article Zoe Williams mentions an academic Stuart Hodkinson. He did research on the estate. Asking residents there views. As this was critical of the PFI project the consortium partner Regenter reported him to his university.
> 
> I googled him and found this academic paper by him on Council PFI schemes. Provides short history of how PFI started, the changes in Council housing and reasons why New Labour took on PFI. It's as the intro to the paper good background on history of PFI in Council housing. Not about MFN in detail. Interesting as it backs up what Zoe is saying. And critical of neo liberalism.
> 
> ...



Stuart and one of his PhD students spent a day with us on Cressingham about a year and a half ago.  He agreed with us that the SPV format is just as risky - in terms of govts being run rings round by expensive lawyers working for the developers etc - as PFI, and still relying on external investors for the build costs.  Lambeth believe that using an SPV means they'll save 15-20% on what they'd pay, as a local authority, for a developer to build the housing for them.  However, that 15-20% is predicated on Lambeth properly scrutinising the contracts and nailing down the finances - something they've signally failed to do on Somerleyton or at the New Town Hall, where they've instead put Council Tax payers in the hole for money we can't afford.


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## ViolentPanda (Sep 10, 2017)

Regarding "district heating systems", they too are a risky investment.  They're sold as being "hi tech", and a massive improvement on the old municipal systems, but essentially they're prone to similar issues - they need dedicated and regular maintenance; high demand can cause supply issues and can cause plant to reach the end of its useful life sooner (MFN had a pump failure recently, and no back-up pump installed as a failsafe.  Residents went 12 hours with only a minimal water supply at very low pressure, which basically meant no water if you lived above ground floor) and residents on new-build with district heating are "locked in" to a supplier who can pump up charges willy-nilly.  The execrable Orchard estate in east London is a case in point - repeated failures of the district heating system led to high bills for residents as the managing company attempted to pass on charges, and the fact that residents were also (as with MFN) locked in to their power supplier, meant that when the heating system failed, and people used fan heaters etc to keep themselves warm, they were paying a high rate per unit for their electricity. I know, from having a single fan heater on last November, after my combi-boiler was turned off for a week, that I went through £50 of electricity in a week, and the compo available for residents when their district heating systems fail, is inadequate to meet that cost.


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## Gramsci (Sep 10, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> Regarding "district heating systems", they too are a risky investment.  They're sold as being "hi tech", and a massive improvement on the old municipal systems, but essentially they're prone to similar issues - they need dedicated and regular maintenance; high demand can cause supply issues and can cause plant to reach the end of its useful life sooner (MFN had a pump failure recently, and no back-up pump installed as a failsafe.  Residents went 12 hours with only a minimal water supply at very low pressure, which basically meant no water if you lived above ground floor) and residents on new-build with district heating are "locked in" to a supplier who can pump up charges willy-nilly.  The execrable Orchard estate in east London is a case in point - repeated failures of the district heating system led to high bills for residents as the managing company attempted to pass on charges, and the fact that residents were also (as with MFN) locked in to their power supplier, meant that when the heating system failed, and people used fan heaters etc to keep themselves warm, they were paying a high rate per unit for their electricity. I know, from having a single fan heater on last November, after my combi-boiler was turned off for a week, that I went through £50 of electricity in a week, and the compo available for residents when their district heating systems fail, is inadequate to meet that cost.



I've been looking this up to try and answer my own question. Why CHP ,which should be greener heating and electricity, is causing problems.


http://neweconomics.org/2016/10/whos-powering-your-community/


This article ,as you say , shows that locking in residents into one private company leads to them being exploited. Eon have a monopoly. So naturally as is the case with capitalist business Eon make the most of it at expense of some of the poorer sections of society.

The article makes case for the (re) municipalisation of energy supply. Putting it under more democratic control. Effectively taking it out if the market. The new Mayor is looking at idea. Private enterprise is incapable of producing greener energy which is affordable and reliable.

It's tragic that it's taken the fiasco of Myatts Fields PFI for this to be taken seriously.

It goes against the Nu Labour project.


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## Gramsci (Sep 10, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> Stuart and one of his PhD students spent a day with us on Cressingham about a year and a half ago.  He agreed with us that the SPV format is just as risky - in terms of govts being run rings round by expensive lawyers working for the developers etc - as PFI, and still relying on external investors for the build costs.  Lambeth believe that using an SPV means they'll save 15-20% on what they'd pay, as a local authority, for a developer to build the housing for them.  However, that 15-20% is predicated on Lambeth properly scrutinising the contracts and nailing down the finances - something they've signally failed to do on Somerleyton or at the New Town Hall, where they've instead put Council Tax payers in the hole for money we can't afford.



He is doing interesting work on housing. And he sees a be bigger picture. This from one of the articles on Myatts and fuel poverty:



> . According to academic researchers Stuart Hodgkinson and Chris Essen, the UK public sector is currently committed to at least £305.3bn in public spending between 1990 and 2050 in 725 different PFI schemes. *But as Hodkinson and Essen write in their 2015 paper, “judging PFI on its own merits misses its real purpose as a neoliberal technology designed to ‘subordinate state activities to the logic of the market, but in a way that would also stimulate the accumulation of capital’.*” PFI therefore is an important mechanism for opening up new opportunities for capital to invest and speculate. Their research into the Myatts Field North redevelopment details how the council – and the tenants – ended up getting less and less for the deal.




From here


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## CH1 (Sep 10, 2017)

Gramsci said:


> I've been looking this up to try and answer my own question. Why CHP ,which should be greener heating and electricity, is causing problems.


Does SELCHP have good or bad vibes?

They have an open day next Sunday by the way - part of Open House London.
I went last year and was impressed - but I like hard hats, yellow jackets and roaring furnaces. As far as I can see the plant is managed by Veolia.

Note: they take grass, garden cutting etc. The sort of thin that Lambeth has kittens about and wants to charge £20 per collection.


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## ricbake (Sep 10, 2017)

BBC News article on Communal Heating Systems and contracts creating fuel poverty here and link to a podcast from a radio5 program covering the issue and referring to Myatts Field among others.


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## Gramsci (Sep 10, 2017)

ricbake said:


> BBC News article on Communal Heating Systems and contracts creating fuel poverty here and link to a podcast from a radio5 program covering the issue and referring to Myatts Field among others.



BBC article links into Fuel Poverty Action and Stuart Hodkinson report. Looking at it and all the partners in the Consortium Pas the buck amongst each other over who is  responsible for what faults. That Lambeth have made no attempt, as ultimately responsible for this PFI, to respond to residents problems and make sure contractors provide good service. Now Lambeth have outsourced the maintenance and infrastructure to private companies the report says in reality it's the unpaid work of residents in the TRAs ( themselves voluntary unfunded groups) who have done there best to do the job that Lambeth officers should be doing.


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## ricbake (Sep 10, 2017)

That's what Lib Peck means by cooperative council - residents have to cooperate with each other to get things done because the Council is ceasing to work at all!


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## Gramsci (Sep 11, 2017)

By



ricbake said:


> That's what Lib Peck means by cooperative council - residents have to cooperate with each other to get things done because the Council is ceasing to work at all!



I think it's worse than that.

Lambeth is still run by Nu Labour ideologues. I was at a community meeting recently when a senior Labour Cllr gave us a pep talk on the joys of community activism. He said the the Council wanted to become an "enabler" rather than a "provider". They still think this kind of Blairite stuff.

Lambeth Nu Labour under Steve Reed were falling over themselves to do ALMOs , PFI schemes. It still goes on with the gym / library scheme.

It's not about empowering local people. Despite the language used.

It's about helping capitalism gain inroads into areas that before it had been excluded from. Like social housing. Or Library service.

The worst thing about all this is that it entangles community involvement in with this. So if you are critical or sceptical of it you are branded out of touch.

Or as I have by officers. Not being "sensible" , being someone who "prefers to working on the outside". This by officers with well paid secure employment. Reading the report on fuel poverty I linked above it doesn't surprise me that unpaid volunteers have to stick up for residents. Council officers imo are over paid desk jockeys. The regen dept behave like property developers. 

And Im someone who tries to engage with the Council.


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## ricbake (Sep 11, 2017)

Exactly - they are abrogating responsibility for community but insisting on creating policy for local groups who pick up responsibility for any commitments that can't be offered out to corporate bodies. They have no ability whatsoever to negotiate appropriate deals with those corporations. 
Capitulate to business, dictate to residents and celebrate their own perception of their beneficence.

Unless local groups can organise an umbrella group to perform on a scale equivalent to a corporation we will all just keep getting branded as oddballs, agitators and out of touch....

I'm not hopeful


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## editor (Dec 10, 2018)

Update 












Return to the Camberwell Submarine, south London  – in photos, Dec 2018


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## jimbarkanoodle (Dec 12, 2018)

walked past this for the first time recently and wondered what the fuck it was...


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## editor (Dec 1, 2020)

More pics of the Camberwell submarine. I do love it!




















						The Camberwell Submarine in the autumn sunshine, Nov 2020
					

We’ve always been fascinated by this curious structure located on a traffic island on a short strip of dual carriageway in Akerman Road, SW9. Looking like a stranded Cold War submarine &#8211…



					www.brixtonbuzz.com


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