# Day of Discussion organised by the ICC, London, 23 June



## Alfredo (Apr 23, 2012)

*International Communist Current*​​​*Come to a day of discussion*​​ 
* - Main topic: what can we learn from the social movements of 2011?*​​*              - Other discussions on art, religion, etc*
​The ICC invites you to a day of discussion in London on 23 June. The main focus of the day will be a discussion about the significance of the social movements of 2011. What can we learn from the revolts that broke out Tunisia, Egypt, Israel, Greece, Spain, the USA, the UK and many other countries? What were their strengths and weaknesses? How do they relate to the more general struggle of the working class against capitalism?

Over the past year we have published a large number of articles and documents about these movements, which can be found on our website at  http://en.internationalism.org. More recently we have published a general statement about them: http://en.internationalism.org/icconline/201203/4766/statement-social-movements-2011. We aim to start the morning’s discussion with a presentation of this text, but we hope to have time to discuss other contributions and analyses of how these movements took shape in different cities and countries.

In the afternoon we are planning to organise shorter discussions around more general topics. At the moment we have one planned on marxism and art, and another on the origins of Islam, but we are open to further suggestions, and to offers from all directions to present other topics. So far all three discussions will be presented by sympathisers of the ICC rather than ICC members.

We hope that these discussions will be of interest to comrades in or around revolutionary political organisations, to people who have been actively involved in the social movements, and to anyone asking questions about the nature and future of present-day society – and about the feasibility of getting rid of it.  

If you are interested in attending, let us know in advance if you can, especially if you have any accommodation, transport or other problems that might make it difficult for you to come along.

*The venue is upstairs at the Lucas Arms, 245a **Grays Inn Road**, **London**WC1X 8QZ**. The first session will go from 11-2 and the afternoon sessions from 3-6. Food can be bought in the pub but we are also planning to go to a nearby restaurant after the meeting*.

Contact us at uk@internationalism.org.uk


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## barney_pig (Apr 23, 2012)

I understand that proletarian democracy will be attending this


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## frogwoman (Apr 23, 2012)

Fantastic    I'll need to wipe all this mud, pondweed and slime off me though before i go


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## barney_pig (Apr 23, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> Fantastic    I'll need to wipe all this mud, pondweed and slime off me though before i go


 thats proletarian mud comrade! down with bourgeouis sanitation!


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## Alfredo (Jun 1, 2012)

This promises to be very positive given the number of people who have expressed interest in coming to it. 
http://en.internationalism.org/icconline/201204/4835/come-day-discussion

At the moment we envisage four main areas of discussion:
 - in the morning, lessons of the social movements of 2011, based around our international statement  http://en.internationalism.org/icconline/201203/4766/statement-social-movements-2011. But hopefully the discussion will incorporate more detailed experiences from various parts of the world.
 - In the afternoon, two shorter discussions: one is a discussion on art. The presenter (Mark Hayes) has sent a brief outline of the areas to be covered. A more detailed text may be available soon. 

_According to Trotsky, “Art, which is the most complex part of culture, the most sensitive and at the same time the least protected, suffers most from the decline and decay of bourgeois society.”_
_How does the history of art in the last 100 years confirm this view?_
_What if anything does the history of modern art have to tell us about capitalism and the need for revolution?_
_Is revolutionary art still possible today?_
 - the other is a discussion on Islam. The presenter (jaycee) has posted this outline on,libcom: 


_I'm giving a presentation about Islam._
_I thought I would put down some of the topics I will be looking at, feel free to give advice, ask questions and whatever else._
_1. why should revolutionaries study Islam?_
_can it develop our understanding of religion generally?_
_2. What have revolutionaries said about Islams historical origins?
(I have mainly come across Marxist analysis here, if anyone knows of any Anarchist views I would be grateful to hear about them)_
_3. Muhammad and the role of the individual in history: Mad, mystic or Machiavellian?_
_4. What was the Islamic civilization?_
_how did it relate to Muhammad's ideas and practices and did Islam bring into being a new mode of production?_
_5. How should Revolutionaries relate to Muslim workers__-_

 - A short session at the end to discuss where to go next...all ideas welcome


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## chilango (Jun 1, 2012)

Is there a DJ?


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## rekil (Jun 1, 2012)

barney_pig said:


> I understand that proletarian democracy will be attending this


New PD front group 'Heavydrinkers Against Capitalism' might be attending.


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## sunnysidedown (Jun 2, 2012)

Alfredo said:


> This promises to be very positive given the number of people who have expressed interest in coming to it.
> http://en.internationalism.org/icconline/201204/4835/come-day-discussion
> 
> At the moment we envisage four main areas of discussion:
> ...


 
A couple of interesting subjects there, what are the chances of an audio recording of the talks for those unable to attend?


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## Hocus Eye. (Jun 2, 2012)

I am glad that ideas are welcome. My ideas are that a communist meeting should not be giving a platform to religious ideas - end of story.


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## kenny g (Jun 3, 2012)

Question five suggests that Revolutionaries are distinct from Muslim workers. Not necessarily so. One could be a revolutionary muslim worker.
Question three  - probably all three, and a lot else besides, apply.
Question one- yes. The Quran is well worth reading.


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## Jean-Luc (Jun 4, 2012)

kenny g said:


> The Quran is well worth reading.


It's a bit repetitive but I suppose you're right. To be well informed people should read it.

The bit I liked was where he tries to convince people of the resurrection of the dead and gets this (sensible) reaction:



> [6:29] They say (subconsciously), "We live only this life; we will not be resurrected."
> [23:37] "We only live this life - we live and die - and we will never be resurrected."
> [23:38] "He is just a man who fabricated lies and attributed them to God. We will never believe him."
> [44:34] The present generations say,
> [44:35] "We only die the first death; we will never be resurrected!"


Not so amusing is what he says will happen to people who think and say this (like many people here I imagine):




> [13:5] If you ever wonder, the real wonder is their saying: "After we turn into dust, do we get recreated anew?" These are the ones who have disbelieved in their Lord. These are the ones who have incurred shackles around their necks. These are the ones who have incurred Hell, wherein they abide forever.


Not nice.


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## butchersapron (Jun 4, 2012)

Not a very marxist approach Jean luc, to look at what a book like that says in order to derive its social meaning.


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## elfman (Jun 4, 2012)

Who gives a fuck about revolutionary art? Proper bourgeois wankery that is.


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## Alfredo (Jun 4, 2012)

I agree with Butcher's Apron - the whole point of the discussion isn't to give a platform to religious ideas but to understand their social (and historical) origin and how they might be overcome. 

Don't agree it's bourgeois wankery to talk about revolutionary art, or art and revolution. Marx, Luxemburg, Morris, Trotsky, Peret and many other revolutionaries had a lot to say on questions of literature and art.   

We will try to do an audio recording and find a suitable medium for it....


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## chilango (Jun 4, 2012)

elfman said:


> Who gives a fuck about revolutionary art? Proper bourgeois wankery that is.


 
I give a fuck.

But only out of personal interest.

It's not _important_.

...but then few things are.


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## chilango (Jun 4, 2012)

Alfredo said:


> I agree with Butcher's Apron - the whole point of the discussion isn't to give a platform to religious ideas but to understand their social (and historical) origin and how they might be overcome.
> 
> Don't agree it's bourgeois wankery to talk about revolutionary art, or art and revolution. Marx, Luxemburg, Morris, Trotsky, Peret and many other revolutionaries had a lot to say on questions of literature and art.
> 
> We will try to do an audio recording and find a suitable medium for it....


 
All pisstaking aside, I would be curious to read/see/hear the discussion on revolutionary art. So long as it's kept accessible.


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## Alfredo (Jun 19, 2012)

Two contributions by comrades doing presentations on saturday. KT on our own forum has posted a timeline of the social revolts and workers' struggles of the past decade or so, to show the elements that feed into the movements of 2011. It's a bit long to post on this thread but it can be found here:
http://en.internationalism.org/forum/1056/alf/4943/icc-day-discussion-london-23-june
MH's text on art in the ascendance and decadence of capitalism has been published on our website:
http://en.internationalism.org/icconline/201206/4977/notes-toward-history-art-ascendant-and-decadent-capitalism


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## frogwoman (Jun 19, 2012)

i'll go, if i can manage to climb up out of the swamp


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## Alfredo (Jun 26, 2012)

A very good day. It was well attended by our modest standards (over 20 outside the ICC, and three other groups represented: CWO, SPGB and Commune). The discussions were very animated and each one could have gone on a lot longer. We will put together a report including all the presentations and a synthesis of the discussions, and if the recording came out well enough we will publish that as well.


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## butchersapron (Jul 1, 2012)

Jean-Luc said:


> It's a bit repetitive but I suppose you're right. To be well informed people should read it.
> 
> The bit I liked was where he tries to convince people of the resurrection of the dead and gets this (sensible) reaction:
> 
> ...


If you're interested the presentation can be found here


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## Alfredo (Jul 20, 2012)

Thanks for posting that link. It's to jaycee's presentation on marxism and islam. The discussion it stimulated could have gone on a lot longer. Nothing like religion for getting people animated.

http://en.internationalism.org/icconlin ... xism-islam

Here is the presentation on the social revolts. Also prompted a good discussion....
http://en.internationalism.org/worldrev ... ments-2011

The write ups of the three different discussions will be published before too long.


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