# Labour & Anti-Semitism.



## cantsin (Apr 7, 2016)

So on a day when you'd have thought the PLP might be aflame with attacks on Cameron, Osborne and their fellow 1. % ers, instead Progress's 8 point plan to combat alleged LP anti semitism seems to be a much bigger preoccupation for many of the usual suspects .

Don't know if anyone's looked into this deeper than me ( wldnt be hard ) , but so far the evidence I've seen mentioned supporting the idea of a wave of LP anti semitism is 2 / 3 weirdos on Twitter spouting  crap, and a resignation from / subsequent investigation of Ox Uni Lab Club that never seems to throw up anything concrete / otherwise .

Anyone else highly suspicious here, on all sorts of fronts ? ( ie : usual attempts to smear opponents of Israeli illegal occupation / settlements/ oppression, - blatant attempt to undermine Corbo / McDonnell / Milne - desperation of Progress to reassert in any way they can - wider, global attempts to delegitimise anti Zionism / # BDS etc etc ) .

From late 80s SWP membership, to now, have  personally barely come across anyone I even suspected of anti semitism on the left ( dodgy Cnut on a Palstine march long time ago, some anarchos shut him up,+  a div last year who mentioned ' Zionist Bankers'  on Twitter, and then went quiet when challenged ) , does anyone have different experiences / is this in any way more legit than it looks?


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## J Ed (Apr 7, 2016)

It's just nutpicking and the conflation of legitimate criticism of Israel with anti-Semitism.


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## keybored (Apr 7, 2016)

cantsin said:


> Anyone else highly suspicious here, on all sorts of fronts ? ( ie : usual attempts to smear opponents of Israeli illegal occupation / settlements/ oppression, - blatant attempt to undermine Corbo / McDonnell / Milne - desperation of Progress to reassert in any way they can - wider, global attempts to delegitimise anti Zionism / # BDS etc etc ) .


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## nino_savatte (Apr 7, 2016)

Any claim that the Labour Party is somehow uniquely anti-Semitic is easily shot down when you consider that the Tories and Kippers have their own anti-Semites.

What these Progressites/Blairites/whatever-you-want-to-call-them (I think WoodCOCK, Dugher and Angela Smith are the main instigators behind the latest smears tbh) are trying to claim is that Corbyn is "soft" on anti-Semitism, which is bullshit. They're also claiming there's  a "growth" in anti-Semitism, which is also frankly bullshit.


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## flyingcolumn (Apr 7, 2016)

Who are the weirdos you speak of?


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## Pickman's model (Apr 7, 2016)

flyingcolumn said:


> Who are the weirdos you speak of?


cantsin


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## cantsin (Apr 7, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> cantsin


Edit


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## Pickman's model (Apr 7, 2016)

cantsin said:


> Edit


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## rioted (Apr 7, 2016)

Does the Labour Party have ‘a problem with anti-Semitism’? No; and the accusations raise more questions than answers.


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## J Ed (Apr 7, 2016)

rioted said:


> Does the Labour Party have ‘a problem with anti-Semitism’? No; and the accusations raise more questions than answers.



Requires a login


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## rioted (Apr 7, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Requires a login


Shall I cut and paste? Goes into the allegations (and debunks them) in detail?


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## J Ed (Apr 7, 2016)

rioted said:


> Shall I cut and paste? Goes into the allegations (and debunks them) in detail?



if you want yeah sounds nice


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 7, 2016)

cantsin said:


> So on a day when you'd have thought the PLP might be aflame with attacks on Cameron, Osborne and their fellow 1. % ers, instead Progress's 8 point plan to combat alleged LP anti semitism seems to be a much bigger preoccupation for many of the usual suspects .
> 
> Don't know if anyone's looked into this deeper than me ( wldnt be hard ) , but so far the evidence I've seen mentioned supporting the idea of a wave of LP anti semitism is 2 / 3 weirdos on Twitter spouting  crap, and a resignation from / subsequent investigation of Ox Uni Lab Club that never seems to throw up anything concrete / otherwise .
> 
> ...



None of this is at all surprising. Many Progress members - and those who are ideologically-aligned with them, but aren't members (i.e. the likes of Umunna) - are members of Labour Friends of Israel. They've already drunk the pro-Zionist Kool-Aid, so it's hardly surprising that they're using a hobby-horse as a means of attacking the Labour leadership.

As for encountering anti-Semites in political activism, I've come across a few - all white, all middle-class, all exercising that sort of entitled behaviour where they scorn anyone to hand who doesn't measure up to their particular gauge of what left political activism is. The sort who say things of Jews such as "but *they* won't fight for the country they're born in, only Israel", and believe it to be fair comment.


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## rioted (Apr 7, 2016)

J Ed said:


> if you want yeah sounds nice


Too long. 20 pages!


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## cantsin (Apr 7, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


>



apols, replied '?' to yr post, before working out purpose of your tagging me in ( so to speak)


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## Pickman's model (Apr 7, 2016)

cantsin said:


> " weirdos" is prob lazy / dismissive / potentially violating peoples safe spaces or sthn, but the
> 
> 
> apols, replied '?' to yr post, before working out purpose of your tagging me in ( so to speak)


just to alert you to flying column, nothing more


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## cantsin (Apr 7, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> just to alert you to flying column, nothing more



totes - (and my "" weirdos" is prob lazy / dismissive / potentially violating peoples safe spaces or sthn, but the.... " is me trying to reply to FC, then screwing up my response to you blah blah


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## cantsin (Apr 7, 2016)

rioted said:


> Does the Labour Party have ‘a problem with anti-Semitism’? No; and the accusations raise more questions than answers.



superb, ta


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## mk12 (Apr 7, 2016)

I'm sure there are anti-semites on the left, just as there are anti-semites on the right. Vicki Kirby, vice-chair of Labour's Woking branch, is certainly one of them, and she should have been kicked out of the party for her comments. I haven't personally come across any blatantly anti-Semitic lefties, but I am suspicious of some 'anti-Zionists' that I have met.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 7, 2016)

rioted said:


> Does the Labour Party have ‘a problem with anti-Semitism’? No; and the accusations raise more questions than answers.


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## J Ed (Apr 7, 2016)

mk12 said:


> I'm sure there are anti-semites on the left, just as there are anti-semites on the right. Vicki Kirby, vice-chair of Labour's Woking branch, is certainly one of them, and she should have been kicked out of the party for her comments. I haven't personally come across any blatantly anti-Semitic lefties, but I am suspicious of some 'anti-Zionists' that I have met.



It can be weird where it crops up. There are a good number of Hillary Clinton supporters peddling anti-Semitic tropes in the US for example, and I think Paxman's comment about Ed being a 'North London Geek' during the leadership debates last year was obvious dog whistle anti-Semitism. The trouble with the current push to label everyone on the left as an anti-Semite, and to equate all Jews with the agenda of the Israeli government, is that it devalues the currency of what should be a very serious accusation and means that many will be unable or unwilling to identify genuine cases of it especially when they come from somewhere other than the left as it usually does.


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## J Ed (Apr 7, 2016)

I think that some of the clearest evidence that these accusations are being used as just another weapon is the case of Rachel Bradshaw, someone actually went to the trouble of fabricating anti-Semitic social media posts in order to get her kicked out of the party.


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## killer b (Apr 7, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> View attachment 85497


try this link

Does the Labour Party have ‘a problem with anti-Semitism’? No; and the accusations raise more questions than answers.


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## likesfish (Apr 7, 2016)

Well if the definition is hasn't personally killed for the state of Israel  then I imagine most of the left could be accessed of that.

Some IDF veterans should really stay off the internet.


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## mk12 (Apr 10, 2016)

Another Labour councillor suspended from the party for tweeting that Hitler was the 'greatest man in history'.


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## agricola (Apr 10, 2016)

mk12 said:


> Another Labour councillor suspended from the party for tweeting that Hitler was the 'greatest man in history'.



It should perhaps be pointed out that the tweet in question was from October 2011, when the councillor was fourteen or fifteen years old.  (edit)It should further be pointed out that she was elected in May 2015.


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## J Ed (Apr 10, 2016)

agricola said:


> It should perhaps be pointed out that the tweet in question was from October 2011, when the councillor was fourteen or fifteen years old.



Obviously I am fine with her being rooted out but that's a pretty obscure thing to just come across. Unless it was just by chance someone or some group, or I suppose journos, must be doing it to every elected Labour official at the moment.


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## co-op (Apr 10, 2016)

J Ed said:


> I think Paxman's comment about Ed being a 'North London Geek' during the leadership debates last year was obvious dog whistle anti-Semitism.



Miliband got all sorts of weird a-s stuff, some of it so under the radar that it was probably unconscious, remember all the fuss about his eating a bacon sandwich? He wasn't showing sufficient relish at shovelling the pork in, not really a converso.


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## mk12 (Apr 10, 2016)

agricola said:


> It should perhaps be pointed out that the tweet in question was from October 2011, when the councillor was fourteen or fifteen years old.  (edit)It should further be pointed out that she was elected in May 2015.



Not something that most 15 year olds come out with though, is it?

She also tweeted that 'the Jews are so powerful in the US it's disgusting'.


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## mk12 (Apr 10, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Obviously I am fine with her being rooted out but that's a pretty obscure thing to just come across. Unless it was just by chance someone or some group, or I suppose journos, must be doing it to every elected Labour official at the moment.


Apparently it was found by the Campaign Against Anti-Semitism (CAAS).


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## nino_savatte (Apr 10, 2016)

mk12 said:


> Apparently it was found by the Campaign Against Anti-Semitism (CAAS).


Powerbase has an article on them.


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## agricola (Apr 11, 2016)

mk12 said:


> Not something that most 15 year olds come out with though, is it?
> 
> She also tweeted that 'the Jews are so powerful in the US it's disgusting'.



Well no - but there is a bit of difference between _"Labour councillor suspended from the party for tweeting that Hitler was the 'greatest man in history'"_, and _"Labour councillor suspended from the party for tweeting that Hitler was the 'greatest man in history', when she was fifteen"_.


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## Pugnax (Apr 11, 2016)

More broadly, in all my experience in (radical and centre) left politics I've never come across even a hint of anti-semitism. In fact, when I was a teenager I lived in a house with a load of anarchist types and was involved in a lot of pro-Palestine  demos and meetings because of it. I was pretty half-assed politically and was mainly friends with most of them through diy music stuff, so maybe I didn't pick up on all the nuances, but even from the people that were volunteering in Palestine I never heard a bad word said against Jewish people, the religion itself or even Israel as a state. It was very much focused on anti-authoritarianism, anti-imperialism and the UK weapon trade. In fact, embarrassingly enough, for about a year before I started actually making an effort to follow things a bit more, I didn't even really know that Israel was explicitly a Jewish country, that's how little that factor came into play. It's also worth noting that I don't think that the Israel/Palestine issue was over represted in their concerns or activism (this is always an accusation that gets thrown at the left, "why are you so concerned about Israel, what about xyz issue?")

Maybe there were undercurrents of anti-semitism that I was too naieve or clueless to pick up on, but it's worth bearing in mind that plenty of the people I knew involved were Jewish, and cared very deeply about their heritige and had absolutely no problem with getting involved in even very direct action.


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## likesfish (Apr 11, 2016)

agricola said:


> Well no - but there is a bit of difference between _"Labour councillor suspended from the party for tweeting that Hitler was the 'greatest man in history'"_, and _"Labour councillor suspended from the party for tweeting that Hitler was the 'greatest man in history', when she was fifteen"_.



I guess if someone goes trawling through your twitter account its going to look bad and will need some explaining rather difficult to just ignore.


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## rioted (Apr 11, 2016)

Problem with all this twitter bollocks is that its always completely out of context. The tweet MAY have been in reply to the question "what are the naffest beliefs of the BNP?" Who's to know?


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## Cloo (Apr 11, 2016)

The Jewish Chronicle has been going mad lately trying to present Corbyn and co as antisemtic, or not worthy of our trust, but I really can't see it myself. I agree it just seems to be a few weirdos on Twitter, and I suspect other parties have just as many such twats in their rank.

I do think there is sometimes a problem with antisemitism on the hard left, with people sometimes getting into bed with groups that have dodgy views when they have a mutual campaigning area, but I don't think it is a problem of the parliamentary Labour party.


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## cantsin (Apr 11, 2016)

Cloo said:


> The Jewish Chronicle has been going mad lately trying to present Corbyn and co as antisemtic, or not worthy of our trust, but I really can't see it myself. I agree it just seems to be a few weirdos on Twitter, and I suspect other parties have just as many such twats in their rank.
> 
> *I do think there is sometimes a problem with antisemitism on the hard left, with people sometimes getting into bed with groups that have dodgy views when they have a mutual campaigning area, but I don't think it is a problem of the parliamentary Labour party*.



examples ?


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## purenarcotic (Apr 11, 2016)

The JC is an awful paper and shouldn't be taken very seriously. It is daily mailesque in its hysteria.


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## likesfish (Apr 11, 2016)

The fuckwit "who came out we are all hezbollah" is the classic.

Most of the middle east has the  protocols of elders of zion for sale  most palestenians dont really care much for the diffrence between Israeli and Jew understanably .
 So any contact with any palestinian or arab group is going to run into people who think the only good jew is a dead jew .


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## co-op (Apr 11, 2016)

Cloo said:


> The Jewish Chronicle has been going mad lately trying to present Corbyn and co as antisemtic, or not worthy of our trust, but I really can't see it myself. I agree it just seems to be a few weirdos on Twitter, and I suspect other parties have just as many such twats in their rank.
> 
> I do think there is sometimes a problem with antisemitism on the hard left, with people sometimes getting into bed with groups that have dodgy views when they have a mutual campaigning area, but I don't think it is a problem of the parliamentary Labour party.




The JC is crazy these days. I read the headlines about the "anti-semitism" that they had found in the Labour Party last week and I was expecting the usual from some mad idiot in a Labour Party backwater and all they had were a series of quotes that - at worst - were borderline. EG comparing the tunnels dug into Gaza with those dug into the Warsaw Ghetto - I mean this isn't anti-semitic at all, the comparison is clear. Anyone who follows Israeli political discourse knows that comparisons to Hitler and/or the Nazis is a routine epithet between Israeli politicians - in fact it's pretty routine to go much worse - Sonderkommando etc. The Jewish Chronicle should be ignored on anti-semitism for the time being.


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## nino_savatte (Apr 11, 2016)

Cloo said:


> I do think there is sometimes a problem with antisemitism on the hard left, with people sometimes getting into bed with groups that have dodgy views when they have a mutual campaigning area, but I don't think it is a problem of the parliamentary Labour party.


Tbh, I think it's over-exaggerated. I can't say I've met any anti-Semites on the so-called 'hard left'. However, I encounter plenty of anti-Semites who are Kippers and Zeitgeist types, all of whom flock to comments threads on newspaper websites and share their ugly views with fellow nut-jobs on Twitter.


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## nino_savatte (Apr 11, 2016)

purenarcotic said:


> The JC is an awful paper and shouldn't be taken very seriously. It is daily mailesque in its hysteria.


Indeed and it's become much worse since Stephen Pollard became its editor. BBC Breakfast presenters 'Simpering' Sian Williams and Bill 'Old Etonian' Turnbull allowed Pollard to shout down and talk over Ken Loach during a live studio 'discussion' in the days before the Iraq invasion. I'll never forget that.


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## Cloo (Apr 11, 2016)

I wish people did ignore it - it's grist to the mill of certain types in the US (like my one of my husband's uncles) who hear about the sorts of things it says and really seem to believe that the UK/Europe is some kind of Islamic state that's one step away fro another Kristallnacht, whereas it is actually Muslims whose freedoms and rights are under threat.


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## J Ed (Apr 11, 2016)

Cloo said:


> I wish people did ignore it - it's grist to the mill of certain types in the US (like my one of my husband's uncles) who hear about the sorts of things it says and really seem to believe that the UK/Europe is some kind of Islamic state that's one step away fro another Kristallnacht, whereas it is actually Muslims whose freedoms and rights are under threat.



The internet is a real boon to these types. It allows them to read so much and yet learn nothing.


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## crossthebreeze (Apr 11, 2016)

likesfish said:


> The fuckwit "who came out we are all hezbollah" is the classic.
> 
> Most of the middle east has the  protocols of elders of zion for sale  most palestenians dont really care much for the diffrence between Israeli and Jew understanably .
> So any contact with any palestinian or arab group is going to run into people who think the only good jew is a dead jew .


In my (limited) experience the few Palestinian people i've come across in the uk have been very careful and reasonable in the language and arguments - including when speaking at Palestine solidarity rallys.  Its always been middle class white english people or the occasional muslim with a background nowhere near the region, who have used zionist/israeli/jewish interchangably, the "we are all hezbollah" bollox, or come out with more grossly anti-semitic stuff.


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## likesfish (Apr 11, 2016)

I imagine Hamas, Fatah and members of Hezbollah etc probably arnt very reasonable what with being under the drones guns missiles assassins and anything else the Israelis  can chuck at them


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## Tom A (Apr 18, 2016)

I follow someone on Twitter who often calls out people on the left (particularly the Labour Party) for following and rewteeting anti-Semites, mostly of the "Israel the Zionists the Rothschilds da Joooooos rule the world" variety - and the people that are being followed/retweeted are indeed guilty of pushing anti-Semitic discourse. Usually they don't retweet the anti-Semitic tweets, but it's still no different to people who just casually share stuff from Britain First. Unfortunately IME there is a overlap among the fringes (and sadly not so fringe) parts of the left and the Zeitgeist types/David Icke fan club - and in my area the issue is endemic particularly amongst the anti-fracking campaigns, anti-homelessness campaigns and the remnants of Occupy. Also the pro-Palestine campaigns again have plenty of dodgy "we are all Hamas/Hezbollah" types in their midst too - and whilst you do not have to be anti-Semitic to criticise the Israeli government, it is not hard to see why such campaigns attract anti-Semites.


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## Tom A (Apr 18, 2016)

crossthebreeze said:


> In my (limited) experience the few Palestinian people i've come across in the uk have been very careful and reasonable in the language and arguments - including when speaking at Palestine solidarity rallys.



I once crossed paths with a Palestinian who turned out to be a 9/11 troother after a Left Unity meeting.  I know that this is certainly not indicative of the thoughts of every Palestinian alive today, but still not someone who was "very careful in their language and arguments".


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## butchersapron (Apr 18, 2016)

They're very likely  - these types - to not be labour members, in fact to hate labour. Possibly for reasons not far removed from anti-semitism


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## Tom A (Apr 18, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> They're very likely  - these types - to not be labour members, in fact to hate labour. Possibly for reasons not far removed from anti-semitism


There was a big furore surrounding Cambridge Momentum regarding such people though.


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## butchersapron (Apr 18, 2016)

Tom A said:


> There was a big furore surrounding Cambridge Momentum regarding such people though.


I bet they were from the part that aren't labour members though.


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## Tom A (Apr 18, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> I bet they were from the part that aren't labour members though.



If so, is it any wonder why Momentum tends to be very wary at best, hostile at worst to any other left organisations other than the Labour Party? 

Thing is, in an organisation with as many members as the Labour Party (and indeed the left within the Labour Party, which probably has more people in it than the rest of the left put together), there will be unfortunately be a a few dodgy people trying to creep in (as is true of any campaign or movement sadly) - and if the Labour left is not careful the Blairites will seize on any chance to discredit them.


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## butchersapron (Apr 18, 2016)

Tom A said:


> If so, is it any wonder why Momentum tends to be very wary at best, hostile at worst to any other left organisations other than the Labour Party?
> 
> Thing is, in an organisation with as many members as the Labour Party (and indeed the left within the Labour Party, which probably has more people in it than the rest of the left put together), there will be unfortunately be a a few dodgy people trying to creep in (as is true of any campaign or movement sadly) - and if the Labour left is not careful the Blairites will seize on any chance to discredit them.


That's exactly what this failed attempt is isn't it?

Not quite sure what you mean in the first bit btw - isn't Momentum basically all the other groups (minus sp and swp) pretending to be labour?


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## Tom A (Apr 18, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> isn't Momentum basically all the other groups (minus sp and swp) pretending to be labour?



In some places you could add Left Unity (another group that wants to support Labour under Corbyn without being part of Labour) to that list. It varies throughout the country in regards to its acceptance of non-Labour members, in Manchester I have generally heard cautiously positive things from those who are in the Labour Party (most of which state that the main move is to keep out the SP and SWP, something I can understand even if I am not sure if I wholly agree), and somewhat negative things from from one former Green who is now in Labour plus my friends I know from Left Unity.


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## treelover (Apr 18, 2016)

likesfish said:


> The fuckwit "who came out we are all hezbollah" is the classic.
> 
> Most of the middle east has the  protocols of elders of zion for sale  most palestenians dont really care much for the diffrence between Israeli and Jew understanably .
> So any contact with any palestinian or arab group is going to run into people who think the only good jew is a dead jew .



Fuckwits, there were plenty more than one, i can recall senior SWP members excusing them as well, saying that they are oppressed so do bad things, thats the WAAH lot, btw.


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## Tom A (Apr 18, 2016)

treelover said:


> Fuckwits, there were plenty more than one, i can recall senior SWP members excusing them as well, saying that they are oppressed so do bad things, thats the WAAH lot, btw.


Well the SWP took their time dissociating with Gilad Atzmon, even when evidence of how virulently anti-Semitic he is started mounting up.


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## mk12 (Apr 20, 2016)

The NUS have elected a new President, Malia Bouattia, who has recently been accused of anti-Semitism. Again, it seems as though her strong anti-Zionist views have caused concern among some (she once wrote that 'The University of Birmingham is something of a Zionist outpost in British Higher Education'). Her critics have also raised concerns that she's close to the anti-Semitic Muslim Public Affairs Committee, primarily because she once wrote 'thank you' on Facebook in response to a supportive message from its spokesperson. She's obviously denied these accusations, and claimed that she is only anti-Zionist, not anti-Semitic.


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## cantsin (Apr 20, 2016)

mk12 said:


> The NUS have elected a new President, Malia Bouattia, who has recently been accused of anti-Semitism. Again, it seems as though her strong anti-Zionist views have caused concern among some (she once wrote that 'The University of Birmingham is something of a Zionist outpost in British Higher Education'). Her critics have also raised concerns that she's close to the anti-Semitic Muslim Public Affairs Committee, primarily because she once wrote 'thank you' on Facebook in response to a supportive message from its spokesperson. She's obviously denied these accusations, and claimed that she is only anti-Zionist, not anti-Semitic.



blimey, more hoo - ha on wit's way then - can anyone save a busy ( lazy) interested party time / effort and link to anything with any degree of objectivity re: the "allegations " against her , initial search not throwing uo anything of use ?

( is the Muslim Public Affairs Committee actually 'anti semitic' in any demonstrable way ?)

Graun taking slightly more positive angle for once : (sure it won't last) 


*NUS elects first female black Muslim president after tense contest*


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## treelover (Apr 20, 2016)

> A senior representative of a controversial UK Muslim group, banned from many UK campuses due to their spreading of anti-Semitic propaganda, has described an initiative led by Jewish university society presidents as indicative of a wider “Zio lobby”.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




This was a reply by MPAC to the criticisms of Bouattia and wider critiques of MPAC.

btw, the above site while having some very valid articles on what is happening in EU/Baltics, should be approached with the same caution as Bob Pitts Islamophobia Watch.

update apparently, MPAC or one of their apparatchiks, posted the below



> MPACUK even posted “Take your holocaust, roll it nice and tight and shove it up your (be
> creative)!” on their Facebook page in 2013.


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## treelover (Apr 20, 2016)

> *Does the National Union of Students believe inclusivity will be delivered by prospective president?*
> 15th April 2016 Leave a comment
> The UK National Union of Students (NUS) has often shown itself incapable of providing the type of inclusive governance or leadership that allows all views and beliefs to flourish or feel welcomed. Jewish students have, in particular, experienced the sense of isolation the actions and decisions of the NUS generates.
> 
> ...



If she opposed a motion against IS, she really does need to explain herself.


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## butchersapron (Apr 20, 2016)

treelover said:


> This was a reply by MPAC to the criticisms of Bouattia and wider critiques of MPAC.
> 
> btw, the above site while having some very valid articles on what is happening in EU/Baltics, should be approached with the same caution as Bob Pitts Islamophobia Watch.


So why are you linking to it? And what was a reply to what?


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## emanymton (Apr 20, 2016)

treelover said:


> This was a reply by MPAC to the criticisms of Bouattia and wider critiques of MPAC.
> 
> btw, the above site while having some very valid articles on what is happening in EU/Baltics, should be approached with the same caution as Bob Pitts Islamophobia Watch.


I'm struggling to see anything anti-Semitic in the coment  quoted.


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## butchersapron (Apr 20, 2016)

treelover said:


> If she opposed a motion against IS, she really does need to explain herself.


They/she did. As a seconds searching (or following the links in your own post) will tell you.


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## emanymton (Apr 20, 2016)

treelover said:


> If she opposed a motion against IS, she really does need to explain herself.


I'd be curious to see what the whole motion actually said myself. 

I am actually more concerned about claiming that prevent is a strategy of the zionist lobby. If true that is heading into deeply dodgy territory.


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## treelover (Apr 20, 2016)

Harrys Place are going ballistic, IP politics is going to overshadow basic student issues unless this is resolved.


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## emanymton (Apr 20, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> They/she did. As a seconds searching (or following the links in your own post) will tell you.


Bugger looks like the full text of the motion has been taken down.


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## treelover (Apr 20, 2016)

'Mainstream Zionist Media', 

in the U.K, really?


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## Brainaddict (Apr 20, 2016)

It's worth reading to the end of the HP article, because it suggests the title of the article is dishonest:



> Bouattia published a Facebook post on Monday on behalf of the NUS' black students' campaign, saying the union stood in "complete solidarity" with Kurdish people against the recent attacks by ISIS.
> 
> "We.. join many others in condemnation of [Islamic State's] brutal actions. In doing so we recognise that condemnation of ISIS appears to have become a justification for war and blatant Islamaphobia...
> 
> ...



Which is not to defend anything else MB may have said (I haven't checked), but let's not get Huffington Hysteria.


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## butchersapron (Apr 20, 2016)

That's Sukar the mad pro-assad freak. Sometimes poster. That she thanks and whose stage she appears on.

I wouldn't vote for someone who can't talk for two minutes without notes. They're bureaucrats.

Nothing she says about mainstream zionist media is a problem - she means, pro-israel and the intellectual support that buttresses that state taken as a assuptions in the media in this country.

Try responding to people on here.


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## butchersapron (Apr 20, 2016)

Brainaddict said:


> It's worth reading to the end of the HP article, because it suggests the title of the article is dishonest:
> 
> 
> 
> Which is not to defend anything else MB may have said (I haven't checked), but let's not get Huffington Hysteria.


Was that other motion taken forward then - because it's easy to throw up distraction flares when under pressure. Did it happen?


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## Brainaddict (Apr 20, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Was that other motion taken forward then - because it's easy to throw up distraction flares when under pressure. Did it happen?


I don't know. It's not the kind of thing that would be newsworthy (NUS condemns ISIS after all!) so we might need someone with access to NUS inner workings to check. Still, I think it's clear she's making the point that she was against the wording of the motion rather than the sentiment behind it. That also doesn't make good HP headlines.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 20, 2016)

Brainaddict said:


> I don't know. It's not the kind of thing that would be newsworthy (NUS condemns ISIS after all!) so we might need someone with access to NUS inner workings to check. Still, I think it's clear she's making the point that she was against the wording of the motion rather than the sentiment behind it. That also doesn't make good HP headlines.


It's not clear at all to me that she's telling the truth when she said that. I think some proof of that would be the claimed motion actually happening.


----------



## treelover (Apr 20, 2016)

The Holocaust, the Left, and the Return of Hate

a long thoughtful essay on the issues, whether you agree or not.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 20, 2016)

treelover said:


> The Holocaust, the Left, and the Return of Hate
> 
> a long thoughtful essay on the issues, whether you agree or not.


And do you? That's quite important to say.

Oh god, why am i bothering?


----------



## cantsin (Apr 20, 2016)

treelover said:


> If she opposed a motion against IS, she really does need to explain herself.



took me approx 3 mins to find out that the motion attacked IS AND Kurds alike, and that Bouattia wasn't having that - her condemnation of IS has been unequivocal.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 20, 2016)

cantsin said:


> took me approx 3 mins to find out that the motion attacked IS AND Kurds alike, and that Bouattia wasn't having that - her condemnation of IS has been unequivocal.


It didn't attack Kurds - it was put forward in support of the Kurds at that time in Kobane and so contained implicit support for the US strikes keeping them alive in that city. It was an explicitly pro-kurd motion proposed by kurds. Despite the motion being anti-external intevention.

Her not having that was on a different basis. I can't work out what though - can you help?


----------



## nino_savatte (Apr 20, 2016)

treelover said:


> The Holocaust, the Left, and the Return of Hate
> 
> a long thoughtful essay on the issues, whether you agree or not.


Oh dear. The subtext here is: "anti-Semitism is a uniquely leftist phenomenon" as this snippet from the title illustrates by deliberately conflating Jews with Israelis.



> If history is any guide, it may be a long time before their solidarity extends to Jews and Israelis.



I guess the author hasn't bothered to actually check the numbers of Jews who are members of the Labour Party and the 'Left'.

There are more smears and tropes in this article than I can shake a stick at. This stands out.


> The horror with which many Jews greeted the election of Jeremy Corbyn to the leadership of the Labour Party was outstripped only by the realization that his supporters felt that his fondness for the company of anti-Semites was unworthy of their concern.



The author of this piece then goes on a ramble around 20th century history (or his version of it) and comes up with gems like this:


> For many on the Left today, the Holocaust is a curiously uncomfortable topic. At the far-Left fringes, one can find serious attempts at Holocaust denial. But in polite and acceptable Left-wing opinion, it is not uncommon to hear well-meaning people demand to know why Israelis insist on persecuting others just as they were once persecuted.




Long, yes. Thoughtful, no.


----------



## cantsin (Apr 20, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> It didn't attack Kurds - it was put forward in support of the Kurds at that time in Kobane and so contained implicit support for the US strikes keeping them alive in that city. It was an explicitly pro-kurd motion proposed by kurds.
> 
> Her not having that was on a different basis.



<<<gives up on any further half assed attempts to skim read on the subject>>>


----------



## mk12 (Apr 20, 2016)

According to _thetab.com_, this is the original motion:



> *Iraqi/Kurdish solidarity*
> 
> *Proposed:* Daniel Cooper
> *Seconded:* Shreya Paudel, Clifford Fleming
> ...



Bouattia's response to the motion (again, according to _thetab.com_) was:



> We recognise that condemnation of ISIS appears to have become a justification for war and blatant Islamaphobia.This rhetoric exacerbates the issue at hand and in essence is a further attack on those we aim to defend.


----------



## Knotted (Apr 20, 2016)

treelover said:


> The Holocaust, the Left, and the Return of Hate
> 
> a long thoughtful essay on the issues, whether you agree or not.



I glanced at this and read a single paragraph:

[A prominent example of this tendency appeared in 2003, when the late British historian Tony Judt took to the _New York Review of Books_ torecommend a one-state outcome to the conflict. His essay, which was not terribly well-received at the time, has not dated well. The whole idea of a Jewish state, he sighed, is “an anachronism.” Judt would likely be untroubled by today’s alarming uptick in anti-Semitic violence that is causing European Jews to seek sanctuary in Israel in unprecedented numbers, since he claimed it was the hateful behavior of _Israel_, not Arab and Muslim pogromists, that was responsible for endangering the lives of Europe’s Jews.]

That's just spectacular. An obviously forced attempt at sliming Tony Judt, "I presume he would be untroubled...". Followed by an attempt at blaming anti-semitism in Eastern Europe on Arabs and Muslims. The logic of the whole argument of the paragraph just gives up and exits stage left by the time it reaches its end leaving a flabby pool of snarling.

I appreciate that this sort of angry idiocy is kind of fun, but you really do read an aweful lot of undiluted shit.


----------



## bimble (Apr 20, 2016)

treelover said:


> The Holocaust, the Left, and the Return of Hate
> 
> a long thoughtful essay on the issues, whether you agree or not.



Er. What's the opposite of thoughtful?
That article there, far as I can tell, is just a rabid bit of hate-filled lunacy. Its the same old shit, either you're an uncritical cheerleader of everything that state does or else you're an anti-semite, a self-loathing jewish antisemite being the worst kind of all, obviously.

"Today’s anti-Zionists invariably remind their critics that anti-Zionism was once a widely held position among Jews. But the calumnies they thoughtlessly circulate have no connection to the theoretical debates of the pre-war years. They are the poisonous legacy of Soviet anti-Semitism, appropriated wholesale by those who seek to destroy a flourishing UN member state. "

& just in case it wasn't clear;

"Anti-Zionist Jews _or (better still) those prepared to renounce every last vestige of their Jewish identity_ will of course continue to be warmly welcomed and invited to join the Left’s tireless struggle against the baleful power of the Zionist entity and Jewish capital. "


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 20, 2016)

bimble said:


> "Anti-Zionist Jews _or (better still) those prepared to renounce every last vestige of their Jewish identity_ will of course continue to be warmly welcomed and invited to join the Left’s tireless struggle against the baleful power of the Zionist entity and Jewish capital. "





> a long thoughtful essay on the issues, whether you agree or not.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 20, 2016)

I don't know enough about the new NUS President to make an informed comment on her but I have to wonder, does the exponential rise in accusations of anti-Semitism from right-wingers towards people opposing neoliberalism reflect 1) a sudden increase in anti-Semitism on the left 2) an attempt by increasingly desperate right-wingers to try and derail challenges to neoliberalism?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 20, 2016)

J Ed said:


> I don't know enough about the new NUS President to make an informed comment on her but I have to wonder, does the exponential rise in accusations of anti-Semitism from right-wingers towards people opposing neoliberalism reflect 1) a sudden increase in anti-Semitism on the left 2) an attempt by increasingly desperate right-wingers to try and derail challenges to neoliberalism?


Why have you put her on the left? Why have  you put what she represents as a challenge to neo-liberalism?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 20, 2016)

It's fucking NUS bureaucrats who know who to play the game FFS - they're the enemy as much as anyone else.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 20, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Why have you put her on the left? Why have  you put what she represents as a challenge to neo-liberalism?



I haven't, I know nothing more about her than what I have read on this thread. I have no idea what her politics are beyond what I have read on this thread and it seems like typical mealy mouthed NUS careerist stuff, it just seems to fit a pattern, and the same types who make these accusations have put her on the left. That's a good point actually, increasingly I see those using this smear take outright obvious examples of anti-Semitism from people who are clearly not left-wing and then seek to use that as evidence of left-wing anti-Semitism.


----------



## bimble (Apr 20, 2016)

The man who wrote the long thing above, he is it seems just as you'd expect. His latest tweet is this bit of excremental hysteria re the NUS election, starting with the opener "the jewish community was in shock this week..' 
'Shock' as opposition to Holocaust Memorial Day amendment applauded at NUS - Jewish News


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 20, 2016)

J Ed said:


> I haven't, I know nothing more about her than what I have read on this thread. I have no idea what her politics are beyond what I have read on this thread and it seems like typical mealy mouthed NUS careerist stuff, it just seems to fit a pattern, and the same types who make these accusations have put her on the left. That's a good point actually, increasingly I see those using this smear take outright obvious examples of anti-Semitism from people who are clearly not left-wing and then seek to use that as evidence of left-wing anti-Semitism.


It reflects the narrowing of and heightening of the competitive nature of student wanker politics ( i want a job and  need to make sure i get this victory on my CV) - plus the very real effects of increased islamist organising on campus. The squeezing out of all but people prepared to pick a side on israel/islam is an intended outcome of both sides. The rest of the issues can go fuck themselves.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 20, 2016)

Brainaddict said:


> I don't know. It's not the kind of thing that would be newsworthy (NUS condemns ISIS after all!) so we might need someone with access to NUS inner workings to check. Still, I think it's clear she's making the point that she was against the wording of the motion rather than the sentiment behind it. That also doesn't make good HP headlines.


It doesn't appear to have happened. She was reduced to promising to make her own personal statement instead. So that doesn't clear up why she voted against an anti-isis anti-intervention pro-YPG motion only in order to make her own anti-isis anti-intervention pro-YPG when it became a public issue. Anyone else seen this statement? I doubt that it exists. Or that you'll care.


----------



## belboid (Apr 20, 2016)

mk12 said:


> According to _thetab.com_, this is the original motion:


Shreya Paudel - the non-AWL seconder of that motion just tweeted his (clearly sincere) congratulations to Bouattia, so he can't have had much of an issue with her request for a rewording of it

*Shreya Paudel* ‏@Shreya_Paudel  6h6 hours ago
Omg,congrats to @MaliaBouattia! Yours & mine first @nusuk black woman president from July! Happy for her & the movement. #NUSConference


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 20, 2016)

belboid said:


> Shreya Paudel - the non-AWL seconder of that motion just tweeted his (clearly sincere) congratulations to Bouattia, so he can't have had much of an issue with her request for a rewording of it
> 
> *Shreya Paudel* ‏@Shreya_Paudel  6h6 hours ago
> Omg,congrats to @MaliaBouattia! Yours & mine first @nusuk black woman president from July! Happy for her & the movement. #NUSConference


What else would a job-seeker do?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 20, 2016)

belboid said:


> Shreya Paudel - the non-AWL seconder of that motion just tweeted his (clearly sincere) congratulations to Bouattia, so he can't have had much of an issue with her request for a rewording of it
> 
> *Shreya Paudel* ‏@Shreya_Paudel  6h6 hours ago
> Omg,congrats to @MaliaBouattia! Yours & mine first @nusuk black woman president from July! Happy for her & the movement. #NUSConference


Hang on, it wasn't a request for a re-working it was a _rejection_ on the basis that it demonised muslims and supported intervention. Do you think it did that?


----------



## belboid (Apr 20, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> It was an explicitly pro-kurd motion proposed by kurds.


It wasn't proposed by kurds


----------



## bimble (Apr 20, 2016)

crikey. twitter-searching her name just led me to "#IslamoSocialism" 
(coined i think by Toby Young, he must be very proud).


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 20, 2016)

belboid said:


> It wasn't proposed by kurds


It was clearly put foward to support the Kurds in Iraq - Shreya Paudel - being the Kurdish seconder.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 20, 2016)

belboid said:


> It wasn't proposed by kurds


Who proposed it and what was the intention?


----------



## belboid (Apr 20, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Hang on, it wasn't a request for a re-working it was a _rejection_ on the basis that it demonised muslims and supported intervention. Do you think it did that?


I suspect it has something to do with it being proposed by the AWL (in the body of their new permastudent Dan Cooper) who are happy to do both those things. 

I can't see anything particularly bad about it, tho there _might _be some issue with its support for any and all anti-ISIS kurdish forces


----------



## belboid (Apr 20, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> It was clearly put foward to support the Kurds in Syria - Shreya Paudel - being the Kurdish seconder.


No he isn't, he's Nepali.

(oh, and appears to be an academic now, rather than anyone interested in an NUS career.  Not that they are necessarily contradictory, of course)


----------



## J Ed (Apr 20, 2016)

bimble said:


> crikey. twitter-searching her name just led me to "#IslamoSocialism"
> (coined i think by Toby Young, he must be very proud).



Just terrifying to think of the kids he is responsible for.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 20, 2016)

belboid said:


> No he isn't, he's Nepali.


And kurdish.


----------



## belboid (Apr 20, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> And kurdish.


mm, where do you get that from?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 20, 2016)

belboid said:


> mm, where do you get that from?


From half out my arse:

"The motion was partly written by a Kurdish student activist, and presented by the International students' officer, Shreya Paudel"


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 20, 2016)

treelover said:


> 'Mainstream Zionist Media',
> 
> in the U.K, really?




Don't be so naive.

Most of the mainstream British media *IS* pro-Zionist - despite what the state of Israel claims otherwise.
Our papers and broadcast media regularly gloss over the policies of the state of Israel, and the crimes that the policies fuel, yet report relatively minor individual incidents involving Palestinian retaliation with fervour.  This has been the case since the 1950s, and will continue to be the case as long as Europe and the US require the existence of a non-Muslim beachhead in the Middle East.


----------



## belboid (Apr 20, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> From half out my arse:
> 
> "The motion was partly written by a Kurdish student activist, and presented by the International students' officer, Shreya Paudel"


even the 'partly written by a Kurdish student activist' seems to be a bit of an over-statement - the proposer say that it was 'worked on with' a student of kurdish descent


----------



## crossthebreeze (Apr 20, 2016)

Tom A said:


> I once crossed paths with a Palestinian who turned out to be a 9/11 troother after a Left Unity meeting.  I know that this is certainly not indicative of the thoughts of every Palestinian alive today, but still not someone who was "very careful in their language and arguments".


I haven't met every Palestinian either! I was speaking from personal experience which I said was limited.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 20, 2016)

belboid said:


> even the 'partly written by a Kurdish student activist' seems to be a bit of an over-statement - the proposer say that it was 'worked on with' a student of kurdish descent


It was pretty clearly coming from a kurdish group no matter who wrote or formally proposed it.


----------



## bimble (Apr 20, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Hang on, it wasn't a request for a re-working it was a _rejection_ on the basis that it demonised muslims and supported intervention. Do you think it did that?


No. It said:

"NUS NEC resolves
1. To work with the International Students’ Campaign to support Iraqi, Syrian and other international students in the UK affected by this situation.
2. To campaign in solidarity with the Iraqi people and in particular support the hard-pressed student, workers’ and women’s organisations against all the competing nationalist and religious-right forces.
3. To support Iraqis trying to bridge the Sunni-Shia divide to fight for equality and democracy, including defence of the rights of the Christian and Yazidi-Kurd minorities.
4. *To condemn the IS and support the Kurdish forces fighting against it, while expressing no confidence or trust in the US military intervention.*
5. Encourage students to boycott anyone found to be funding the IS or supplying them with goods, training, travel or soldiers.
6. To make contact with Iraqi and Kurdish organisations, in Iraq and in the UK, in order to build solidarity and to support refugees.
7. To issue a statement on the above basis.

So .. no. It looks like she's just a twit when she says "This rhetoric exacerbates the issue at hand and in essence is a further attack on those we aim to defend.”

Her condemning them would clearly have dealt a deadly blow to IS and so it matters greatly that she failed to step up. Don't know why the ethnic background of who proposed the motion should be relevant though?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 20, 2016)

bimble said:


> No. It said:
> 
> "NUS NEC resolves
> 1. To work with the International Students’ Campaign to support Iraqi, Syrian and other international students in the UK affected by this situation.
> ...


It matters not if she had voted for it, would made no difference whatsoever. Externally anyway. To the immediate career plans, possibly.

In these shitty little games provenance of motions are key. Little shitty little management games.


----------



## belboid (Apr 20, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> It was pretty clearly coming from a kurdish group no matter who wrote or formally proposed it.


lol


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 20, 2016)

belboid said:


> lol


You don't think the emphasis on the kurds suggested this?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 20, 2016)

treelover said:


> The Holocaust, the Left, and the Return of Hate
> 
> a long thoughtful essay on the issues, whether you agree or not.



It's long, but it's hardly thoughtful, unless you're easily-impressed by journalists being able to engage a subject for more than 500 words.

The first section - the foundation on which the article is built, mentions Downing and Kirby, but makes no attempt to detail their supposed crimes, merely re-tells the spun mass media version.

In the 2nd paragraph of the second section, the author takes as read his own claim regarding Zionism equating to a form of nationalism - and a guarantor of their safety - for "European Jews". That's fatuous bullshit that may be part of the "creation myth" of the state of Israel, but doesn't accord that well with historical reality. The third paragraph is even more historically-manipulative, using the ghosts of dead Jews to castigate the post-war Labour administration with the results of the pre-war (Tory) policy regarding immigration into the Mandate.

I could go on and on about the the bullshit quotient of that piece, but I think that the three points I've illustrated in the early part of the article, serve to support my summary of the quality of it.


----------



## bimble (Apr 20, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> In the 2nd paragraph of the second section, the author takes as read his own claim regarding Zionism equating to a form of nationalism


Is it not ? If not that then what  ?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 20, 2016)

bimble said:


> Is it not ? If not that then what  ?


Just nationalism as the same as european civic nationalism or an expansive coloniser-nationalism?


----------



## treelover (Apr 20, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> It's long, but it's hardly thoughtful, unless you're easily-impressed by journalists being able to engage a subject for more than 500 words.
> 
> The first section - the foundation on which the article is built, mentions Downing and Kirby, but makes no attempt to detail their supposed crimes, merely re-tells the spun mass media version.
> 
> ...




Really I was meaning the first section on Stalin, etc, I didn't know about much of that except for the 'Doctors Plot', the latter parts go off into histrionics.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 20, 2016)

treelover said:


> Really I was meaning the first section on Stalin, etc, I didn't know about much of that except for the 'Doctors Plot', the latter parts go off into histrionics.


Not that compatible with 'thoughtful' then?


----------



## bimble (Apr 20, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Just nationalism as the same as european civic nationalism, an expansive coloniser-nationalism?


I fear maybe i'm an example of what the author of that piece hates the most ( apart from you know, Palestinian people & Jeremy Corbyn) - i'm one of those desperate self-loathing jews who thinks that the state of israel is not the usual sort of nationalism but an anachronism, something not very far removed from the Manifest Destiny sort of ideas that drove early america. But that may just be my childhood experience where the stories I was told were of that ilk, it was a barren wasteland with a couple of goats wandering about aimlessly before we showed up etc.


----------



## treelover (Apr 20, 2016)

OPINION - Brendan O’Neill: Bonkers student politics has the NUS president it deserves - Jewish News

Within hours Brendan O' Neil is out with an opinion.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 20, 2016)

treelover said:


> OPINION - Brendan O’Neill: Bonkers student politics has the NUS president it deserves - Jewish News
> 
> Within hours Brendan O' Neil is out with an opinion.


And within seconds you're posting it without comment of your own.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 20, 2016)

bimble said:


> Is it not ? If not that then what  ?



Nationalism is a ridiculously-simplistic description of pre-war and immediate post-war Zionism. Jabotinskyite Zionist "nationalism" was a thin intellectual thread, and much Zionism was about the establishment of a community of belief - religious and political - not a geographic community based on the ancient boundaries of _eretz yisrael_, driven by a defence of territory and cultural hegemony.


----------



## bimble (Apr 20, 2016)

treelover said:


> OPINION - Brendan O’Neill: Bonkers student politics has the NUS president it deserves - Jewish News



"In the speech she unwittingly exposed her own disdain for ordinary Muslims. She said the reason some of them don’t support Palestinian violence is because they’re suffering from “internalised Islamophobia”..
There's a bleak sort of jewish joke in this somewhere sadly missed by the author of the above rant.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 20, 2016)

bimble said:


> I fear maybe i'm an example of what the author of that piece hates the most ( apart from you know, Palestinian people & Jeremy Corbyn) - i'm one of those desperate self-loathing jews who thinks that the state of israel is not the usual sort of nationalism but an anachronism, something not very far removed from the Manifest Destiny sort of ideas that drove early america. But that may just be my childhood experience where the stories I was told were of that ilk, it was a barren wasteland with a couple of goats wandering about aimlessly before we showed up etc.



The state of Israel is a VERY usual sort of nationalism. It's settler colonialism _par excellence_ - the sort that still happens *despite* being "an anachronism". Zionism has only ever had a "Manifest Destiny" when that has been convenient to the power blocs. As soon as it was convenient to have a non-Muslim bulwark on the Med, the state of Israel, and the form of nationalist Zionism it has based its laws on, was permitted as a colonial endeavour.


----------



## bimble (Apr 20, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> much Zionism was about the establishment of a community of belief - religious and political - not a geographic community based on the ancient boundaries of _eretz yisrael_, driven by a defence of territory and cultural hegemony.


Yep. I never knew till just yesterday about the Subbotniks .. key to the first influx of jewish-faith observing people into palestinian land, straight from russia. Not your usual geographic nationalism more like a religious encampment from day one? Subbotniks - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 20, 2016)

bimble said:


> Yep. I never knew till just yesterday about the Subbotniks .. key to the first influx of jewish-faith observing people into palestinian land, straight from russia. Not your usual geographic nationalism more like a religious encampment from day one? Subbotniks - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



The first *modern* influx, anyway. 

People (including a lot of nationalist Zionists) forget that Herzl's Zionism wasn't centred around a return to the physical kingdom of Israel, but was about establishing a "Jewish state", with Argentina being a favoured destination if occupation of Palestine was not possible.


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 21, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> The state of Israel is a VERY usual sort of nationalism. It's settler colonialism _par excellence_ - the sort that still happens *despite* being "an anachronism". Zionism has only ever had a "Manifest Destiny" when that has been convenient to the power blocs. As soon as it was convenient to have a non-Muslim bulwark on the Med, the state of Israel, and the form of nationalist Zionism it has based its laws on, was permitted as a colonial endeavour.


I'm not sure how far the analogy goes. By the mid-70s the settler colonial regime in what-was-then Rhodesia had a serious problem with young whites failing to turn up for their military service (not on a principled stand, just to dodge the service). Israel seems to have been far more effective in getting people signed up to its nation-building project and the social contract (including military service for all, or almost all) that it implies.

Sure the exemption for the ultra-religious from military service is a really sore point in Israel, but it doesn't seem to blunt the military effectiveness of the state in the way failures to respond to the call-up did in Rhodesia.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 21, 2016)

Idris2002 said:


> I'm not sure how far the analogy goes. By the mid-70s the settler colonial regime in what-was-then Rhodesia had a serious problem with young whites failing to turn up for their military service (not on a principled stand, just to dodge the service). Israel seems to have been far more effective in getting people signed up to its nation-building project and the social contract (including military service for all, or almost all) that it implies.
> 
> Sure the exemption for the ultra-religious from military service is a really sore point in Israel, but it doesn't seem to blunt the military effectiveness of the state in the way failures to respond to the call-up did in Rhodesia.



Part of that is to do with the state of Israel being militarised,though. If you're between 18 and 50, and not a beardie*, you're a military reserve and can be recalled pretty much instantly,under pain of fairly severe punishment if you don't attend.

*Yes, I'm well-aware that calling the Ultra-Orthodox "beardies" is rude and demeaning. You want I should call them _schmendricks_ instead?


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 21, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Part of that is to do with the state of Israel being militarised,though. If you're between 18 and 50, and not a beardie*, you're a military reserve and can be recalled pretty much instantly,under pain of fairly severe punishment if you don't attend.
> 
> *Yes, I'm well-aware that calling the Ultra-Orthodox "beardies" is rude and demeaning. You want I should call them _schmendricks_ instead?


That's what I'm saying. And Rhodesia was a militarised police state as well, but it lacked the "Factor X" that Israel has.


----------



## Tom A (Apr 21, 2016)

mk12 said:


> The NUS have elected a new President, Malia Bouattia, who has recently been accused of anti-Semitism. Again, it seems as though her strong anti-Zionist views have caused concern among some (she once wrote that 'The University of Birmingham is something of a Zionist outpost in British Higher Education'). Her critics have also raised concerns that she's close to the anti-Semitic Muslim Public Affairs Committee, primarily because she once wrote 'thank you' on Facebook in response to a supportive message from its spokesperson. She's obviously denied these accusations, and claimed that she is only anti-Zionist, not anti-Semitic.



How long it now seems when the Union of Jewish Students (who have always been outspokenly pro-Israel) were the kingmakers in the NUS executive. This does not bode well - and I expect all the ultra-PC SocJus attacks on students wearing sombreros, dressing in drag, etc, and indeed vilification of anyone who dares criticise Islamism will now step up a gear. Let's just be grateful it wasn't Baba "Kill all White Men" Moustafa getting the job...


----------



## teqniq (Apr 22, 2016)

Nuts



From the linked article



> Tony Greenstein has been suspended from the Labour Party for alleged anti-Semitism. Tony is 100% Jewish from an Orthodox family. But he is also one of the founders of the Palestine Solidarity Campaign, and in the current hysterical witch-hunt, being pro-Palestinian rights is sufficient indication of anti-Semitism. Just as making herbal medicine used to make you a witch....


----------



## Tom A (Apr 23, 2016)

The same Tony Greenstein that has frequently called out Gilad Atzmon for actual anti-Semitism, no doubt...


----------



## CNT36 (Apr 23, 2016)

Sadiq Khan spoke at an event where women were told to use a separate entrance


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 23, 2016)

CNT36 said:


> Sadiq Khan spoke at an event where women were told to use a separate entrance



Yep.
Note how some papers put more emphasis on the fact that it was 13-14 years ago, than others.


----------



## Brainaddict (Apr 23, 2016)

Slightly odd statement from National Coalition Against Fees and Cuts:


> ***STATEMENT OF SOLIDARITY WITH MALIA BOUATTIA***
> 
> Congratulations to Malia Bouattia, who got elected this week to replace Megan Dunn and become the first BAME woman and Muslim President in NUS’s history. Bouattia ran on a leftwing platform, emphasising liberation, support for free education, opposition to the PREVENT agenda, and commitment to democracy and accountability. Bouattia’s victory has been met with a vicious backlash, including from the national media.
> 
> While concerns and questions raised about antisemitism must be taken seriously (and debated separately), a lot of the attacks she is facing are purely racist and Islamophobic, and the often repeated claim that she refused to condemn ISIS is simply untrue. We stand in solidarity with Bouattia against bigotry and abuse, and we look forward to working with her and the other officers elected to turn the policies NUS conference passed into reality, including a serious, militant strategy to stop the government’s attacks on education and students.


I *think* with the 'debated separately' line they are trying to say any serious accusations have to be separated from the islamophobic attack lines of the right wing media. Okay, but where is this other debate to happen? Surely if you say the debate has to happen, you should give some intimation of where and when would be appropriate.


----------



## likesfish (Apr 23, 2016)

Tom A said:


> The same Tony Greenstein that has frequently called out Gilad Atzmon for actual anti-Semitism, no doubt...



To be fair tg,s been kicked out of everything he's ever been invovled in mostly because he's TG


----------



## CNT36 (Apr 24, 2016)

> This week I became the first black woman to be elected president of the National Union of Students, and the first Muslim who will hold this position too. But instead of celebrating and publicising this incredible landmark, the media coverage has been cluttered with stories calling me a racist, an antisemite, an Islamic State sympathiser and more.
> 
> The truth is, as those who know me well understand, I’ve always been a strong campaigner against racism and fascism in all its forms. And I’d like to set a few things straight.
> 
> Specifically, on the claims that I refused to condemn Isis: two years ago I delayed a National Executive Council motion condemning Isis – but that was because of its wording, not because of its intent. Its language appeared to condemn all Muslims, not just the terror group. Once it was worded correctly I proposed and wholly supported the motion.



I’m the new NUS president – and no, I’m not an antisemitic Isis sympathiser | Malia Bouattia


----------



## danny la rouge (Apr 26, 2016)

Bradford MP Naz Shah quits as McDonnell's PPS after antisemitic posts


----------



## brogdale (Apr 26, 2016)

danny la rouge said:


> Bradford MP Naz Shah quits as McDonnell's PPS after antisemitic posts


FB, eh?
Not only dodgy, but so fucking amateur.


----------



## emanymton (Apr 26, 2016)

danny la rouge said:


> Bradford MP Naz Shah quits as McDonnell's PPS after antisemitic posts


Can someone please explain the antisemitism to me? Is it the saving pocket money bit?


----------



## brogdale (Apr 26, 2016)

emanymton said:


> Can someone please explain the antisemitism to me? Is it the saving pocket money bit?


I suspect that if we'd have been presented with a post from a kipper that dwelt of the re-location of Jews and included the word 'solution', issue would have been taken.


----------



## CNT36 (Apr 27, 2016)

I remember something along those lines. Iirc a couple of people sharing it in a jokey way using it to make a pretty heavy handed political point using some dull satire. From the quotes it sounds like she was sharing it for similar reasons. "I was just taking the piss like" probably doesn't sound great in a resignation speech.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 27, 2016)

CNT36 said:


> I remember something along those lines. Iirc a couple of people sharing it in a jokey way using it to make a pretty heavy handed political point using some dull satire. From the quotes it sounds like she was sharing it for similar reasons. "I was just taking the piss like" probably doesn't sound great in a resignation speech.


It's just so fucking amateur for a candidate to piss about on FB like that; very 'kipperesque really.


----------



## Sirena (Apr 27, 2016)

brogdale said:


> I suspect that if we'd have been presented with a post from a kipper that dwelt of the re-location of Jews and included the word 'solution', issue would have been taken.


I didn't see the word 'solution' except in the Guido Fawkes commentary.


----------



## bimble (Apr 27, 2016)

emanymton said:


> Can someone please explain the antisemitism to me? Is it the saving pocket money bit?


Tricky question. What she said (that the jewish population of israel should be moved en masse to the US and live there happily after, thus solving the problem) is something I used to say to anyone who'd listen years ago, but I reckon I only got away with it cos I'm jewish. The picking over her choice of words (transport, solution etc) to point out where the antisemitism is located is a way of avoiding the real issue I reckon, the fact that Anti-Zionism and antisemitism continue to be conflated by pretty much everyone all the time.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 27, 2016)

bimble said:


> Tricky question. What she said (that the jewish population of israel should be moved en masse to the US and live there happily after, thus solving the problem) is something I used to say to anyone who'd listen years ago, but I reckon I only got away with it cos I'm jewish. The picking over her choice of words (transport, solution etc) to point out where the antisemitism is located is a way of avoiding the real issue I reckon, the fact that Anti-Zionism and antisemitism continue to be conflated by pretty much everyone all the time.


i don't see that there's any need to move the zionist population to the united states of america when if they can make the desert bloom they can doubtless do something similar around birobidzhan.


----------



## bimble (Apr 27, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> i don't see that there's any need to move the zionist population to the united states of america when if they can make the desert bloom they can doubtless do something similar around birobidzhan.


Your comment there makes me feel really uncomfortable and defensive, which just goes to show. Tricky innit.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 27, 2016)

bimble said:


> Your comment there makes me feel really uncomfortable and defensive, which just goes to show. Tricky innit.


you reckon you only got away with it because you're jewish but, it seems, anyone else who proposes a migratory solution, no matter their background, will make you feel uncomfortable and defensive. how bizarre.


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## bimble (Apr 27, 2016)

I don't know, maybe it was your choice of wording, 'the zionist population' and  'if they can make the desert bloom'..  those made me feel like you weren't really talking about people but some homogenous lump of lying loony farmers.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 27, 2016)

bimble said:


> I don't know, maybe it was your choice of wording, 'the zionist population' and  'if they can make the desert bloom'..  those made me feel like you weren't really talking about people but some homogenous lump of lying loony farmers.


so you can suggest moving the whole "jewish population" to america but the minute i am more precise about who the problem is and suggest moving only the zionist population you suddenly get all hoity-toity and hypocritical.


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## butchersapron (Apr 27, 2016)

Sirena said:


> I didn't see the word 'solution' except in the Guido Fawkes commentary.


You don' see  “Solution for Israel-Palestine Conflict - Relocate Israel into United States”?


----------



## bimble (Apr 27, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> so you can suggest moving the whole "jewish population" to america but the minute i am more precise about who the problem is and suggest moving only the zionist population you suddenly get all hoity-toity and hypocritical.


Ah, ok, so you'd like to move only the Zionists to the Jewish Autonomous region in the far east of Russia, not all the jews. 
So the ultra orthodox would get to stay where they are presumably, along with anyone else who does not agree with the idea of a Jewish State?


----------



## danny la rouge (Apr 27, 2016)

Sirena said:


> I didn't see the word 'solution' except in the Guido Fawkes commentary.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 27, 2016)

bimble said:


> Ah, ok, so you'd like to move only the Zionists to the Jewish Autonomous region in the far east of Russia, not all the jews.
> So the ultra orthodox would get to stay where they are presumably, along with anyone else who does not agree with the idea of a Jewish State?


i suspect the ultra-orthodox may prefer to move: but why not give them the option?

i don't think either of us is suggesting in jest or otherwise that *all* the jews move somewhere, that would be plain wrong.


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## likesfish (Apr 27, 2016)

Exactly how are you going to move a nuclear armed military regional power who doesnt want to move?
 Especially one that triggers when people use the terms forced relocation


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## Pickman's model (Apr 27, 2016)

likesfish said:


> Exactly how are you going to move a nuclear armed military regional power who doesnt want to move?
> Especially one that triggers when people use the terms forced relocation


or for that matter resettlement in the east


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## CNT36 (Apr 27, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> You don' see  “Solution for Israel-Palestine Conflict - Relocate Israel into United States”?


It is worth noting it is in the meme not as the Guardian article claims something she wrote. A made up percentage of facebook users have shared something dodgy they didn't read or think about properly. They'd likely be more sympathetic if that is what they thought happened.


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## butchersapron (Apr 27, 2016)

CNT36 said:


> It is worth noting it is in the meme not as the Guardian article claims something she wrote. A made up percentage of facebook users have shared something dodgy they didn't read or think about properly. They'd likely be more sympathetic if that is what they thought happened.


Isn't that endorsing the words though - at best? And it clearly is something that she has spent a lot of time thinking about. I think that counts as using the words to make an argument, to put a position.


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## CNT36 (Apr 27, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Isn't that endorsing the words though - at best? And it clearly is something that she has spent a lot of time thinking about. I think that counts as using the words to make an argument, to put a position.


Yeah, it is endorsing something even if it is not entirely serious on her part. Some of it sounds like parody of some Zionist trolls on Facebook. It does suggest she lives in antisemitic fantasy if she believes the crap about foreign interference and peace in the Middle East.


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## J Ed (Apr 27, 2016)

CNT36 said:


> Yeah, it is endorsing something even if it is not entirely serious on her part. Some of it sounds like parody of some Zionist trolls on Facebook. It does suggest she lives in antisemitic fantasy if she believes the crap about foreign interference and peace in the Middle East.



I don't think it seems like a joke, I think it was a genuine endorsement of a very, very dodgy position. It isn't defensible and it shouldn't be defended.


----------



## CNT36 (Apr 27, 2016)

CNT36 said:


> Yeah, it is endorsing something even if it is not entirely serious on her part. Some of it sounds like parody of some Zionist trolls on Facebook. It does suggest she lives in antisemitic fantasy if she believes the crap about foreign interference and peace in the Middle East.


Apologies if that is incomprehensible I cannot edit.


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## CNT36 (Apr 27, 2016)

J Ed said:


> I don't think it seems like a joke, I think it was a genuine endorsement of a very, very dodgy position. It isn't defensible and it shouldn't be defended.


I think it endorses a dodgy position. I don't think that position she is endorsing is relocation to the United States but the antisemitic tropes in the content.


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## CNT36 (Apr 27, 2016)

I expect the other thing she shared is even worse and I am surprised it was not quoted in the article.


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## J Ed (Apr 27, 2016)

I am amazed that whoever was responsible for vetting candidates under Miliband did not find it, absolutely gross incompetence.


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## bimble (Apr 27, 2016)

So she's written a special apology letter published here:
http://www.jewishnews.co.uk/jewish-news-exclusive-naz-shah-my-apology-to-the-jewish-community/
is that what Corbyn just referred to as 'fulsome'?


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## Pickman's model (Apr 27, 2016)

bimble said:


> So she's written a special apology letter published here:
> http://www.jewishnews.co.uk/jewish-news-exclusive-naz-shah-my-apology-to-the-jewish-community/
> is that what Corbyn just referred to as 'fulsome'?


what most people would refer to as grovelling


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## butchersapron (Apr 27, 2016)

bimble said:


> So she's written a special apology letter published here:
> http://www.jewishnews.co.uk/jewish-news-exclusive-naz-shah-my-apology-to-the-jewish-community/
> is that what Corbyn just referred to as 'fulsome'?


Why did you say special?


----------



## killer b (Apr 27, 2016)

lol

_



			If politicians put their hands up when they get something wrong it would help to restore faith in politics.
		
Click to expand...

_
Naz Shah, rebuilding trust in politicians since 2016. Truly an inspiration.


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## bimble (Apr 27, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Why did you say special?


Am just a bit surprised that the letter appears 'exclusively' in the Jewish News, under the heading 'apology to the Jewish Community'. Maybe I'm being silly but would have preferred it to be somehow less targeted, intended for more of a general readership?


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## Pickman's model (Apr 27, 2016)

bimble said:


> Am just a bit surprised that the letter appears 'exclusively' in the Jewish News, under the heading 'apology to the Jewish Community'. Maybe I'm being silly but would have preferred it to be somehow less targeted, intended for more of a general readership?


yes because being as it is available on the interwebnet only readers of the jewish persuasion will ever see it 

and what should she apologise to the animists of the central african republic too?


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## butchersapron (Apr 27, 2016)

bimble said:


> Am just a bit surprised that the letter appears 'exclusively' in the Jewish News, under the heading 'apology to the Jewish Community'. Maybe I'm being silly but would have preferred it to be somehow less targeted, intended for more of a general readership?


Why did you say 'special'? Or is that why you said special? Because it was published in a relevant place?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 27, 2016)




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## treelover (Apr 27, 2016)

Naz has been very wrong here, but she made her name campaigning against forced marriage, i really doubt she is a full on anti-semite.


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## butchersapron (Apr 27, 2016)

What an odd thing to say.


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## kingfisher (Apr 27, 2016)

who at labour has apologized/fallen sword fro greville janner then?


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## Pickman's model (Apr 27, 2016)

kingfisher said:


> who at labour has apologized/fallen sword fro greville janner then?


i don't get the impression you understand the topic of this thread.


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## J Ed (Apr 27, 2016)

Naz Khan being suspended from the party just popped up on the BBC website as 'BREAKING' super imposed on the bottom of the article I was reading.

I haven't been on the BBC website in a while, is that really what constitutes OMG BREAKING NEWS these days?


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## Pickman's model (Apr 27, 2016)

treelover said:


> Naz has been very wrong here, but she made her name campaigning against forced marriage, i really doubt she is a full on anti-semite.


the bit in red has no bearing on the bit in light blue, you might as well said 'she made her name for baring her bottom when she heard the word 'uncle', i really doubt she is a full on anti-semite'.


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## danny la rouge (Apr 27, 2016)

treelover said:


> Naz has been very wrong here, but she made her name campaigning against forced marriage, i really doubt she is a full on anti-semite.


I don't know the details of whatever else it was she shared, but your post does not contain a syllogism.  One can do one good thing but be a twat on another count. Quite easily.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 27, 2016)

danny la rouge said:


> I don't know the details of whatever else it was she shared, but your post does not contain a syllogism.  One can do one good thing but be a twat on another count. Quite easily.


yeh and it's not as tho being against forced marriages has any bearing whatsoever on one's philo- or anti-semitism 

but then treelover's never been one for 'this leads on to that' arguing.


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## bimble (Apr 27, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> and what should she apologise to the animists of the central african republic too?





butchersapron said:


> is that why you said special? Because it was published in a relevant place?



ok already! The written apology being addressed to The Jewish Community and published exclusively in the Jewish News is just as it should be, fair enough. Her speech in the commons likewise started with "I accept that the words I used caused upset and hurt to the Jewish community'.
Personally I'm still not sure if what she posted on FB was in fact antisemitic, and the whole thing seems a bit silly tbh, but I don't like the idea in general that _if_ an MP were to make a racist statement it's ok to assume that the only people who'd be upset about it and warrant an apology would be the group directly targeted.

But..blimey. So she IS suspended now? Wonder what changed in the last couple of hours since it was announced that she wouldn't be ? Strange.


----------



## danny la rouge (Apr 27, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh and it's not as tho being against forced marriages has any bearing whatsoever on one's philo- or anti-semitism
> 
> but then treelover's never been one for 'this leads on to that' arguing.


Thing is, I can give her the benefit of the doubt on the "meme" we know about: she might have shared without paying too much attention to the wording or how it could be construed. Stupid, especially given her position, but possible to do. However, as a member of an anti-Semitism committee? Twice? You'd have thought she should have been aware of making a distinction between on one hand the actions of the Israeli state and on the other hand, more generally, Jews, given the specific work she was presumably doing on that committee. 

So, a bit of a problem for Labour's in ah on this issue.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 27, 2016)

bimble said:


> ok already! The written apology being addressed to The Jewish Community and published exclusively in the Jewish News is just as it should be, fair enough. Her speech in the commons likewise started with "I accept that the words I used caused upset and hurt to the Jewish community'.
> Personally I'm still not sure if what she posted on FB was in fact antisemitic, and the whole thing seems a bit silly tbh, but I don't like the idea in general that _if_ an MP were to make a racist statement it's ok to assume that the only people who'd be upset about it and warrant an apology would be the group directly targeted.
> 
> But..blimey. So she IS suspended now? Wonder what changed in the last couple of hours since it was announced that she wouldn't be ? Strange.


I think that you're the most disingenuous person i've ever encountered.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 27, 2016)

Oh no, i didn't mean that.


----------



## bimble (Apr 27, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> I think that you're the most disingenuous person i've ever encountered.


oh ok. I won't ask why you think that cos that would probably be me lying.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 27, 2016)

.


----------



## nino_savatte (Apr 27, 2016)

What about Aidan Burley, the former Tory MP for Cannock Chase who was fond of Nazi uniforms? Funny how that's been forgotten.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 27, 2016)

bimble said:


> oh ok. I won't ask why you think that cos that would probably be me lying.


no, lying is not asking a question, it is telling an untruth


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 27, 2016)

.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 27, 2016)

nino_savatte said:


> What about Aidan Burley, the former Tory MP for Cannock Chase who was fond of Nazi uniforms? Funny how that's been forgotten.


no, that's kingfisher's line


----------



## Dogsauce (Apr 27, 2016)

Not that it isn't a damnable offence or anything, but the context of all the attention it's getting is dog-whistle stuff for the London Mayoral elections isn't it?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 27, 2016)

Dogsauce said:


> Not that it isn't a damnable offence or anything, but the context of all the attention it's getting is dog-whistle stuff for the London Mayoral elections isn't it?


yeh but there's so many dogs running you don't know who the whistle's for any more


----------



## nino_savatte (Apr 27, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> no, that's kingfisher's line


Kingfisher, he of "tippin tampons in the fountain" infamy. Is he still with us?


----------



## killer b (Apr 27, 2016)

christ, it's all turned into something of a clusterfuck

Labour Deleted References To Anti-Semitism From Naz Shah's Apology


----------



## mk12 (Apr 27, 2016)

nino_savatte said:


> What about Aidan Burley, the former Tory MP for Cannock Chase who was fond of Nazi uniforms? Funny how that's been forgotten.



What has that got to do with this issue?


----------



## agricola (Apr 27, 2016)

killer b said:


> christ, it's all turned into something of a clusterfuck
> 
> Labour Deleted References To Anti-Semitism From Naz Shah's Apology



As was the intention, probably.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 27, 2016)

nino_savatte said:


> Kingfisher, he of "tippin tampons in the fountain" infamy. Is he still with us?


Yes


----------



## nino_savatte (Apr 27, 2016)

mk12 said:


> What has that got to do with this issue?


Plenty. The Tories are trying to make political capital out of [spurious] allegations of anti-Semitism in Labour ranks. In fact, as I pointed out further up the thread, the objective is to make Labour appear uniquely anti-Semitic and imply that Corbyn is 'soft' on anti-Semitism. However, when the Tories do this, they seem to be completely amnesiac when it comes to their own anti-Semites and the Nazi uniform fetishes of some of their number.


----------



## mk12 (Apr 27, 2016)

killer b said:


> christ, it's all turned into something of a clusterfuck
> 
> Labour Deleted References To Anti-Semitism From Naz Shah's Apology



She shared a post on Facebook saying something like 'remember everything Hitler did was legal'. And captioned it with 'apartheid Israel'. If a BNP/UKIP/Tory candidate or MP did something like this the whole left would be up in arms. Why are some being so defensive?!

Perhaps because she's also been a good campaigner on forced marriages.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 27, 2016)

agricola said:


> As was the intention, probably.



Why? So we're talking about their messing up how they're dealing with it instead of the actual problem?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 27, 2016)

mk12 said:


> She shared a post on Facebook saying something like 'remember everything Hitler did was legal'. And captioned it with 'apartheid Israel'. If a BNP/UKIP/Tory candidate or MP did something like this the whole left would be up in arms. Why are some being so defensive?!


The 1923 putsch legal? Waging aggressive war legal? I think she needs to read some history


----------



## Sirena (Apr 27, 2016)

mk12 said:


> She shared a post on Facebook saying something like 'remember everything Hitler did was legal'. And captioned it with 'apartheid Israel'. If a BNP/UKIP/Tory candidate or MP did something like this the whole left would be up in arms. Why are some being so defensive?!
> 
> Perhaps because she's also been a good campaigner on forced marriages.


Apart from the Apartheid Israel addition, that was a quote from Martin Luther King.


----------



## mk12 (Apr 27, 2016)

Sirena said:


> Apart from the Apartheid Israel addition, that was a quote from Martin Luther King.



The addition of 'Apartheid Israel' is what has caused so much offence. Rightly so, I think.


----------



## agricola (Apr 27, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Why? So we're talking about their messing up how they're dealing with it instead of the actual problem?



I don't think they leaked it; but it does feed into this narrative of Labour anti-semitism that is so popular at the moment, plus of course it makes Corbyn look bad.


----------



## killer b (Apr 27, 2016)

mk12 said:


> She shared a post on Facebook saying something like 'remember everything Hitler did was legal'. And captioned it with 'apartheid Israel'. If a BNP/UKIP/Tory candidate or MP did something like this the whole left would be up in arms. Why are some being so defensive?!
> 
> Perhaps because she's also been a good campaigner on forced marriages.


Why is this replying to me?


----------



## 8115 (Apr 27, 2016)

mk12 said:


> She shared a post on Facebook saying something like 'remember everything Hitler did was legal'. And captioned it with 'apartheid Israel'. If a BNP/UKIP/Tory candidate or MP did something like this the whole left would be up in arms. Why are some being so defensive?!
> 
> Perhaps because she's also been a good campaigner on forced marriages.





> The allegations centre around a 2014 Facebook post, in which Shah shared a graphic of Israel’s outline superimposed on a map of the US under the headline “Solution for Israel-Palestine Conflict – Relocate Israel into United States”, with the comment: “Problem solved”.


That's from the Guardian, no mention of her posting what you said.

Eta - I found a reference to it somewhere else.


----------



## likesfish (Apr 27, 2016)

Well he was in charge of germany so invading poland and france bill would pass
So would the kill all the jews and everybody else I dont like bill of 1941


----------



## kebabking (Apr 27, 2016)

agricola said:


> I don't think they leaked it; but it does feed into this narrative of Labour anti-semitism that is so popular at the moment, plus of course it makes Corbyn look bad.



actually, the people most likely to have leaked is Naz Shahs' staff in defence of her - she _apparently_ wished to make a more fullsome apology/statement, perhaps one that might have got her off the hook to some degree, but that attempt was denied by, we assume, the Leadership rather than the party machinery - the very obvious motive for leaking it is that she/her staff feel that the leadership wanted to avoid the deeper, even less comfortable, issues she wished to raise and so keep the focus on her... the 'i've been hung out to dry' motivation.

Corbyn makes Corbyn look bad, he needs no help from anyone else.


----------



## Sirena (Apr 27, 2016)

mk12 said:


> The addition of 'Apartheid Israel' is what has caused so much offence. Rightly so, I think.


pfft


----------



## agricola (Apr 27, 2016)

kebabking said:


> actually, the people most likely to have leaked is Naz Shahs' staff in defence of her - she _apparently_ wished to make a more fullsome apology/statement, perhaps one that might have got her off the hook to some degree, but that attempt was denied by, we assume, the Leadership rather than the party machinery - the very obvious motive for leaking it is that she/her staff feel that the leadership wanted to avoid the deeper, even less comfortable, issues she wished to raise and so keep the focus on her... the 'i've been hung out to dry' motivation.
> 
> Corbyn makes Corbyn look bad, he needs no help from anyone else.



Not sure how likely that is, especially with the previous "make Corbyn look bad" leaks that have come from that area of the party machinery.


----------



## kebabking (Apr 27, 2016)

agricola said:


> Not sure how likely that is, especially with the previous "make Corbyn look bad" leaks that have come from that area of the party machinery.



if true - and its quite possible - should he not stop providing them with ammunition with his cack-handed fuckwittery?


----------



## brogdale (Apr 27, 2016)

nino_savatte said:


> Plenty. The Tories are trying to make political capital out of [spurious] allegations of anti-Semitism in Labour ranks. In fact, as I pointed out further up the thread, the objective is to make Labour appear uniquely anti-Semitic and imply that Corbyn is 'soft' on anti-Semitism. However, when the Tories do this, they seem to be completely amnesiac when it comes to their own anti-Semites and the Nazi uniform fetishes of some of their number.


There's been a relentless increase in tory 'noise' on this topic over the last few weeks; makes you wonder for how long they've known about the FB stuff...they've been teeing this up carefully, and this has been the reveal.


----------



## killer b (Apr 27, 2016)

brogdale said:


> There's been a relentless increase in tory 'noise' on this topic over the last few weeks; makes you wonder for how long they've known about the FB stuff...they've been teeing this up carefully, and this has been the reveal.


Ah! Perfectly timed for a week more noise before the local elections too.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 27, 2016)

killer b said:


> Ah! Perfectly timed for a week more noise before the local elections too.


Exactly. Also might help explain how Crosby was given such a free hand to run an out and out racist campaign for Goldsmith, (Granpa Frank Goldsmidt), knowing they'd got such a whataboutery 'joker' in the bank.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 27, 2016)

killer b said:


> Ah! Perfectly timed for a week more noise before the local elections too.


dp


----------



## killer b (Apr 27, 2016)

How much traction do you think this stuff has outside politics obsessives?


----------



## brogdale (Apr 27, 2016)

killer b said:


> How much traction do you think this stuff has outside politics obsessives?


Not the point, I think. It closes down (to some extent) the main line of attack against their dog-whistling.


----------



## killer b (Apr 27, 2016)

_Stop being racist!

You can talk you hitler fucks!
_
that kind of thing?


----------



## brogdale (Apr 27, 2016)

killer b said:


> _Stop being racist!
> 
> You can talk you hitler fucks!
> _
> that kind of thing?


Yeah, maybe...or maybe I give them too much credit...but it's all a bit coincidental, innit?


----------



## killer b (Apr 27, 2016)

There's clearly a coordinated campaign involving parts of the Labour establishment, various elements in the press and the tories all digging through left-sh labour member's social media. There's no way they would leave Shah's twitter until after a load of nobody councillors - I think you're right, and it's been sat on for maximum exposure this week.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 27, 2016)

killer b said:


> How much traction do you think this stuff has outside politics obsessives?


Not much. I think it has had a purely factionally-reinforcing effect. Responses that I've seen have been "see labour is in hock to liberals in hock to muslim radicals who excuse anti-semitism" and "see the press will call anything anti-semitism this is a blatant party political attack" (and/or "nothing wrong with that anyway") and "wtf is this I don't care"; nothing that actually looks at the meaning of the post, why she might have reposted it, why other people might repost it etc etc.


----------



## nino_savatte (Apr 27, 2016)

brogdale said:


> There's been a relentless increase in tory 'noise' on this topic over the last few weeks; makes you wonder for how long they've known about the FB stuff...they've been teeing this up carefully, and this has been the reveal.


Also, they've conveniently forgotten that Ed Miliband, a Jew, was recently leader of the Labour Party. 

It's possibly another of Crosby's dead cats. I wouldn't be surprised if they tried to wheel out the 'Nazis-were-left-wing-because-they-had-the-word-socialist-in-their-name' canard in order to smear all left-wingers as well.


----------



## nino_savatte (Apr 27, 2016)

I reckon John Mann's involved in these anti-Semite smears. It's his kind of thing. He's more than happy to help the enemy - such is his loathing of Corbyn.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 27, 2016)

Newsnight is a full-on vermin/progress propaganda fest. This is a very well co-ordinated cross-party attack on Corbyn.


----------



## teqniq (Apr 27, 2016)

Not to excuse her postings on FB but really. As other people have already observed, 'amateur'. Unison run a course at my local branch on using social media responsibly, I didn't bother attending. It's not rocket science, just don't.


----------



## agricola (Apr 27, 2016)

nino_savatte said:


> Also, they've conveniently forgotten that Ed Miliband, a Jew, was recently leader of the Labour Party.
> 
> It's possibly another of Crosby's dead cats. I wouldn't be surprised if they tried to wheel out the 'Nazis-were-left-wing-because-they-had-the-word-socialist-in-their-name' canard in order to smear all left-wingers as well.



Isn't it the case that all of these people exposed as having tweeted / shared / posted anti-Semitic stuff were appointed (as either councillors or PPCs) under Miliband?


----------



## J Ed (Apr 27, 2016)

agricola said:


> Isn't it the case that all of these people exposed as having tweeted / shared / posted anti-Semitic stuff were appointed (as either councillors or PPCs) under Miliband?



Yes, all but one and he was immediately expelled.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 27, 2016)

agricola said:


> Isn't it the case that all of these people exposed as having tweeted / shared / posted anti-Semitic stuff were appointed (as either councillors or PPCs) under Miliband?


I think you mean under the _North London intellectual_?


----------



## nino_savatte (Apr 27, 2016)

agricola said:


> Isn't it the case that all of these people exposed as having tweeted / shared / posted anti-Semitic stuff were appointed (as either councillors or PPCs) under Miliband?


Yes, and conveniently forgotten by the smear campaigners.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 27, 2016)

brogdale said:


> I think you mean under the _North London intellectual_?



North London Geek


----------



## J Ed (Apr 27, 2016)

The treatment of Miliband during the debates was absolutely disgraceful.


----------



## oryx (Apr 27, 2016)

J Ed said:


> The treatment of Miliband during the debates was absolutely disgraceful.



Indeed, were there days and days of news coverage about anti-Semitism when the Mail smeared Miliband's father?


----------



## killer b (Apr 28, 2016)

whoops. Naz Shah's Apology Was Not Edited By Labour Officials


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Apr 28, 2016)

Seamus (Winchester, Balliol, dad was DG of the BBC) Milne discovering the vast gulf between theory and practice when it comes to actual politics. There's a reason why parties employ absolute pricks like Alastair Campbell, Seamus.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 28, 2016)

agricola said:


> Isn't it the case that all of these people exposed as having tweeted / shared / posted anti-Semitic stuff were appointed (as either councillors or PPCs) under Miliband?



Solid summary here

Jeremy Corbyn hasn’t got an ‘antisemitism problem’. His opponents do.


----------



## Diamond (Apr 28, 2016)

How do you categorically defend her comments from criticism of being antisemitic?


----------



## Diamond (Apr 28, 2016)

Simple question but probably a bit tricky to answer...


----------



## Diamond (Apr 28, 2016)

Bit more interesting detail from (god forbid the Semites!), the Jewish Times here...

Naz Shah chaired charity with councillor who compared Israel-Palestine with Shoah - Jewish News


----------



## Diamond (Apr 28, 2016)

Just thinking on this a bit more, is this not encouraging ethnic cleansing?


----------



## killer b (Apr 28, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Solid summary here
> 
> Jeremy Corbyn hasn’t got an ‘antisemitism problem’. His opponents do.


I think the facebook meme _was_ antisemitic. No one proposes a 'solution' to the Israel/Palestine conflict without a big old wink, as Shah recognised in (one of) her apologies.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 28, 2016)

Diamond said:


> How do you categorically defend her comments from criticism of being antisemitic?


Who has sought to?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 28, 2016)

Diamond said:


> Simple question but probably a bit tricky to answer...


not really. i'm just waiting till you've thought about this so i'll pop back tomorrow.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 28, 2016)

killer b said:


> I think the facebook meme _was_ antisemitic. No one proposes a 'solution' to the Israel/Palestine conflict without a big old wink, as Shah recognised in (one of) her apologies.


are you sure?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 28, 2016)

*BYLINE:* States News Service

*LENGTH:* 478 words

*DATELINE:* NEW YORK 

SECRETARY-GENERAL, ON LAUNCH OF INTERNATIONAL YEAR OF SOLIDARITY WITH PALESTINIAN PEOPLE, CALLS ON Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon was issued today:

Today marks the launch of the International Year of Solidarity with the Palestinian People. This will be a critical year for achieving the two-State solution, bringing an end to the occupation that started in 1967, and securing an independent, viable and sovereign State of Palestine living in peace and security with the State of Israel where each recognizes the other's legitimate rights.

I call on all members of the international community and, in particular, Israelis and Palestinians, to work together for justice and a durable peace. Israel and Palestine need to live up to their commitment to a negotiated two-State solution and resolve all permanent status issues, in accordance with Security Council resolutions, the Madrid principles, the Road Map, the 2002 Arab Peace initiative and existing agreements between the parties.

The leaders of Israel and Palestine will need political will, a sense of historic responsibility and a clear vision for a better future for this and future generations. I pledge to do my utmost in support of their efforts.


----------



## Pugnax (Apr 28, 2016)

Isn't "two-state solution" a pretty standard term, or am I being naive?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 28, 2016)

Pugnax said:


> Isn't "two-state solution" a pretty standard term, or am I being naive?


yes. which undermines the claim above about everyone proposing a solution wanting to rerun the final one.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 28, 2016)

Valid point Pickman's model , but for me the (re)posts in question fail my 'what if this had been done by a tory/'kipper test'. At the very least the choice of words/context could be interpreted as anti-semitic.


----------



## killer b (Apr 28, 2016)

Fair enough, perhaps that's too sweeping. Proposing a solution that involves the wholesale transportation of the Israeli population certainly is though.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 28, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Valid point Pickman's model , but for me the (re)posts in question fail my 'what if this had been done by a tory/'kipper test'. At the very least the choice of words/context could be interpreted as anti-semitic.


oh i don't doubt this woman's got some er issues around the existence of the zionist entity: as i hope do we all. it's what's done irl, what positive proposals you can make, how you work your views through, that make it problematic or sensible. sadly my idea of resettlement in birobidzhan falls into the realm of fantasy: while her choice of the usa suggests at least a degree of ambiguity in her views of the residents of the zionist entity, and sadly not wholly to her credit.

much of this is though understandable frustration with the zionist entity's repeated refusal to make any meaningful progress with the palestinians: and frankly i don't suppose many people irl have spent as much time thinking about and debating the zionist question as we have here. so when someone who should know better or have thought about it more - and she is such a person - comes out with bollocks like she did then you have to question both her views and her judgment.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 28, 2016)

killer b said:


> Fair enough, perhaps that's too sweeping. Proposing a solution that involves the wholesale transportation of the Israeli population certainly is though.


don't talk such guff. do you think any two genuine state solution would see so many zionists remain in the west bank? i don't suppose even the more radical palestinians would propose, as you seem to here, killing them all in their homes being better than transporting them.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 28, 2016)

killer b said:


> I think the facebook meme _was_ antisemitic. No one proposes a 'solution' to the Israel/Palestine conflict without a big old wink, as Shah recognised in (one of) her apologies.



You are of course right, I meant that it outlined each case.


----------



## Hocus Eye. (Apr 28, 2016)

While listening to Radio 4 this morning I came to the understanding that the crime Shah committed was not to originate the post about putting Israel in America but just re-tweeting something that was already doing the rounds of the twittersphere. I can imagine that to a pro-Palestinian poster this seemed amusing and as she was not an MP at the time did not have the significance it has now that she is. I notice that the Beeb has joined in the attack on Labour and particularly Corbyn. These implications of anti-Semitism are just anti-Corbin propaganda. Certain journalists have it in for him because he supports the Palestinian cause in Gaza.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 28, 2016)

Let's see if the Sun revelations bumps this off the news cycle


----------



## Hocus Eye. (Apr 28, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Let's see if the Sun revelations bumps this off the news cycle


What Sun revelations? I and many others don't read that paper.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 28, 2016)

Hocus Eye. said:


> What Sun revelations? I and many others don't read that paper.



lol I don't either

The News International trial


----------



## killer b (Apr 28, 2016)

Just in time, Livingstone has been let out to give the pot a stir.


----------



## Hocus Eye. (Apr 28, 2016)

killer b said:


> Just in time, Livingstone has been let out to give the pot a stir.


Now you are really going to confuse people. This part of the thread is about the release of Coulson from prison months earlier than expected. You mention Livingstone being "let out".


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 28, 2016)

Hocus Eye. said:


> Now you are really going to confuse people. This part of the thread is about the release of Coulson from prison months earlier than expected. You mention Livingstone being "let out".


and now he's being pushed out


----------



## bimble (Apr 28, 2016)

Not in my name. Fuck this absurd witch hunt, its certainly not doing anything to reduce actual antisemitism. I think  'The Jewish Community" are the useful idiots here.
Excellent analysis here of this shitstorm:
Jeremy Corbyn hasn’t got an ‘antisemitism problem’. His opponents do.
"The enraging and – for genuine opponents of antisemitism – dismaying truth is this: a miserable assortment of chancers, cynics and careerists is exploiting Jewish suffering to prosecute petty vendettas, wage factional warfare and discredit legitimate criticism of Israel. In the process, they are poisoning relations between British Jews and movements for social justice; fomenting antisemitism while claiming to combat it; "

(in part 2 next week he'll 'examine the political sources of this smear campaign, and show how this manufactured hysteria is being instrumentalised to discredit and undermine movements for justice in the UK and abroad.'.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 28, 2016)

Diamond said:


> Bit more interesting detail from (god forbid the Semites!), the Jewish Times here...
> 
> Naz Shah chaired charity with councillor who compared Israel-Palestine with Shoah - Jewish News


That article is typical, though, of the systematic conflation of anti-Semitism with anti-Zionism or anti-Israeli sentiment. Criticise what Israel is doing in the occupied territories by comparing their appalling actions with other appalling actions and you're accused of anti-Semitism. It's typical also in that it makes no attempt to actually defend Israel's actions - it simply smears the criticism.


----------



## treelover (Apr 28, 2016)

The editor of Jewish News was on Newsnight last night, he was quite measured and concilatory towards Shah.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 28, 2016)

bimble said:


> Am just a bit surprised that the letter appears 'exclusively' in the Jewish News, under the heading 'apology to the Jewish Community'. Maybe I'm being silly but would have preferred it to be somehow less targeted, intended for more of a general readership?



Mmm, how to explain this?
A "less targeted" apology would depend on the media for dispersal - the same media that have been attempting to paint Labour as a bastion of anti-Semitism.
You see the problem, and why targeting a publication followed by "the Jewish Community" (whatever the suffering fuck *that* is) makes much more sense?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 28, 2016)

treelover said:


> Naz has been very wrong here, but she made her name campaigning against forced marriage, i really doubt she is a full on anti-semite.



I doubt she's an anti-Semite at all. Thoughtless certainly, but the evidence available doesn't support claims of anti-Semitism - claims that appear to be made only by interested parties.


----------



## bimble (Apr 28, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Mmm, how to explain this?
> A "less targeted" apology would depend on the media for dispersal - the same media that have been attempting to paint Labour as a bastion of anti-Semitism.
> You see the problem, and why targeting a publication followed by "the Jewish Community" (whatever the suffering fuck *that* is) makes much more sense?


Yes, that makes sense. I'd never heard of 'the Jewish News' before. Looks like a jewish version of the DM. The word antisemitism appears about 20 times on its front page today, all the headlines are about this. Who are they helping with that?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 28, 2016)

nino_savatte said:


> What about Aidan Burley, the former Tory MP for Cannock Chase who was fond of Nazi uniforms? Funny how that's been forgotten.



Ingrained racism and a fondness for fascism are obviously *nowhere near as vile* as even a vague suspicion of anti-Semitism, you _schmuck_!!!


----------



## danny la rouge (Apr 28, 2016)

Statement on “Labour’s problem with antisemitism” | Jewish Socialists' Group


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 28, 2016)

bimble said:


> Yes, that makes sense. I'd never heard of 'the Jewish News' before. Looks like a jewish version of the DM. The word 'antisemitism' appears about 20 times on its front page today, all the headlines are about this. Who are they helping with that?


They think they're helping Israel, I would guess. There is a pretty calculated process afoot, not least from the Israeli govt, of equating anti-Israeli/anti-Zionist statements with anti-Semitism in order to close down criticism of Israel.


----------



## bimble (Apr 28, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> They think they're helping Israel, I would guess. There is a pretty calculated process afoot, not least from the Israeli govt, of equating anti-Israeli/anti-Zionist statements with anti-Semitism in order to close down criticism of Israel.


Of course, but that's been going on forever, that's nothing new.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 28, 2016)

bimble said:


> Of course, but that's been going on forever, that's nothing new.


Sure. But you asked 'who are they helping'. That would be my answer.

I think that short article Diamond linked to is revealing in that it at no point defends Israel's actions, which are hard to defend. So instead, it attacks the criticism by proposing that the criticism is coming from an anti-Semitic place. Seems to me that this is pretty typical.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 28, 2016)

mk12 said:


> She shared a post on Facebook saying something like 'remember everything Hitler did was legal'. And captioned it with 'apartheid Israel'. If a BNP/UKIP/Tory candidate or MP did something like this the whole left would be up in arms. Why are some being so defensive?!
> 
> Perhaps because she's also been a good campaigner on forced marriages.




What the state of Israel did under every Prime Minister, and still does to Palestinians in the Occupied Territories *IS LEGAL* by the state's own laws.

What the state of Germany did under Hitler *WAS LEGAL* under Germany's own laws. Try reading the Enabling Act some time, or if you want something less legalesque, Bracher's "The Hitler Dictatorship".

Shah is being judged via moral predicates. Her language referred to legal predicates. Judging her on any other basis than in context with her actual utterance's meaning is the work of disingenuity at best,mendaciousness at worst.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 28, 2016)

mk12 said:


> The addition of 'Apartheid Israel' is what has caused so much offence. Rightly so, I think.



Please explicate/expand on "rightly so".


----------



## CNT36 (Apr 28, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> What the state of Israel did under every Prime Minister, and still does to Palestinians in the Occupied Territories *IS LEGAL* by the state's own laws.
> 
> What the state of Germany did under Hitler *WAS LEGAL* under Germany's own laws. Try reading the Enabling Act some time, or if you want something less legalesque, Bracher's "The Hitler Dictatorship".
> 
> Shah is being judged via moral predicates. Her language referred to legal predicates. Judging her on any other basis than in context with her actual utterance's meaning is the work of disingenuity at best,mendaciousness at worst.


It us a much used/abused quote being used to condemn everything from the surveillance revealed by Snowden to speeding fines.


----------



## bimble (Apr 28, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Sure. But you asked 'who are they helping'. That would be my answer.
> 
> I think that short article Diamond linked to is revealing in that it at no point defends Israel's actions, which are hard to defend. So instead, it attacks the criticism by proposing that the criticism is coming from an anti-Semitic place. Seems to me that this is pretty typical.



Yes. But presumably they are also (perhaps unwittingly) helping everyone interested in pushing this juggernault of how the labour party has a massive antisemitism problem.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 28, 2016)

Diamond said:


> Just thinking on this a bit more, is this not encouraging ethnic cleansing?



I'd argue that posting if it does so, then so does posting a link where smear tactics are used to insinuate a deeper ideological relationship between two parties (Ms Shah and the councillor) participating on the same charity board.

When you're "thinking", try actually *thinking*.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 28, 2016)

Amazing how cameras just happened to be there right when John Mann confronted Ken Livingstone. Almost like it was a sort of coordinated set up


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 28, 2016)

killer b said:


> Fair enough, perhaps that's too sweeping. Proposing a solution that involves the wholesale transportation of the Israeli population certainly is though.



Point of order.
Wasn't the original sentiment expressed, that of transporting the Zionists to the US, *not* "the Israeli population" (of which Zionists are merely an element)?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 28, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> don't talk such guff. do you think any two genuine state solution would see so many zionists remain in the west bank? i don't suppose even the more radical palestinians would propose, as you seem to here, killing them all in their homes being better than transporting them.



The likes of Rachamim would be using their retained US passports to "get the fuck out of Dodge".


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Apr 28, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Amazing how cameras just happened to be there right when John Mann confronted Ken Livingstone. Almost like it was a sort of coordinated set up



I doubt it's unusual for cameras to be outside Millbank.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 28, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> I'd argue that posting if it does so, then so does posting a link where smear tactics are used to insinuate a deeper ideological relationship between two parties (Ms Shah and the councillor) participating on the same charity board.
> 
> When you're "thinking", try actually *thinking*.


it's too late for that  his brain has atrophied beyond the point of no return


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 28, 2016)

bimble said:


> Yes, that makes sense. I'd never heard of 'the Jewish News' before. Looks like a jewish version of the DM. The word antisemitism appears about 20 times on its front page today, all the headlines are about this. Who are they helping with that?



Themselves.

I don't know if you've noticed, but those who speak "for the Jewish Community" are an Establishment clique who have been,since the 1950s, solidly pro-Zionist and pro anything the state of Israel does. That position (mirrored on the BoDoBJ) *does not* reflect the views of British Jewry, among whom sentiments with regard to the state of Israel  and to Zionism are much more mixed. 

How does this serve British Jewry? It doesn't. What it does serve to do is to make some British Jews feel fearful, and to possibly cause them to make _Aliyah_. This isn't just a function of the British Jewish establishment - the same thing happens in France, Spain, the US, Australia, South Africa, etc. They all "feed the beast".


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 28, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> They think they're helping Israel, I would guess. There is a pretty calculated process afoot, not least from the Israeli govt, of equating anti-Israeli/anti-Zionist statements with anti-Semitism in order to close down criticism of Israel.



It's not only about closing down criticism, it's about making Jews fearful of being anywhere but the "Jewish state".


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 28, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Amazing how cameras just happened to be there right when John Mann confronted Ken Livingstone. Almost like it was a sort of coordinated set up



I can't believe that John Mann would be that mendac...oh, hold on, did I say John Mann?


----------



## CNT36 (Apr 28, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Point of order.
> Wasn't the original sentiment expressed, that of transporting the Zionists to the US, *not* "the Israeli population" (of which Zionists are merely an element)?





> which Shah shared a graphic of Israel’s outline superimposed on a map of the US under the headline “Solution for Israel-Palestine Conflict – Relocate Israel into United States”, with the comment: “Problem solved.”


 From the Guardian.


----------



## peterkro (Apr 28, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> I can't believe that John Mann would be that mendac...oh, hold on, did I say John Mann?


I thought it very restrained by Livingstone not to chin the fucker.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 28, 2016)

Mann seems to be the bloke to got to to cause trouble doesn't he? He was so quiet until relatively recently (see paedophile thread).


----------



## mk12 (Apr 28, 2016)

Lefties revealing their dodgy views about Jews, 'moderates' embracing the chance to ramp up the pressure on Corbyn, Corbyn not really doing anything about it. Labour look a mess.


----------



## gosub (Apr 28, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Mann seems to be the bloke to got to to cause trouble doesn't he? He was so quiet until relatively recently (see paedophile thread).


what the head of the all-party parliamentary group against anti Semitism?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 28, 2016)

mk12 said:


> Lefties revealing their dodgy views about Jews, 'moderates' embracing the chance to ramp up the pressure on Corbyn, Corbyn not really doing anything about it. Labour look a mess.


you say that as though it was something new and formerly unheard of.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 28, 2016)

bimble said:


> Yes. But presumably they are also (perhaps unwittingly) helping everyone interested in pushing this juggernault of how the labour party has a massive antisemitism problem.


Yes, but why would they do that? Could it be that they would do that in order to steer the Labour Party in a pro-Zionist, pro-Israel direction? 

I don't think it's unwitting. Strikes me as very witting, and part of the same thing - namely supporting Israel.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 28, 2016)

gosub said:


> what the head of the all-party parliamentary group against anti Semitism?


Yes.

Have a look through google news for what he's been up to since the labour leadership election started. See if you can identify a common theme in his public actions and statements.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 28, 2016)

CNT36 said:


> From the Guardian.



Right.Thanks for setting me straight!


----------



## bimble (Apr 28, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Yes, but why would they do that? Could it be that they would do that in order to steer the Labour Party in a pro-Zionist, pro-Israel direction?
> 
> I don't think it's unwitting. Strikes me as very witting, and part of the same thing - namely supporting Israel.


What VP said above, about them wanting to stir up fear and paranoia amongst jews in this country, that makes sense to me. Which is a also a slightly roundabout way of helping Israel yes.


----------



## kingfisher (Apr 28, 2016)

if pro-labour-dissarray anti-semitism witchhunt  forces want to chuck some more mud i  reckon theyre gonna dig through s piers corbyn(my mates) tweets and rehash his conspircy world view to have a go at big jeremy, just my 2 cents


----------



## Tom A (Apr 28, 2016)

Interesting statement from the Jewish Socialist Group here:



> A very small number of such cases seem to be real instances of antisemitism. Others represent genuine criticism of Israeli policy and support for Palestinian rights, but expressed in clumsy and ambiguous language, which may unknowingly cross a line into antisemitism. Further cases are simply forthright expressions of support for Palestinian rights, which condemn Israeli government policy and aspects of Zionist ideology, and have nothing whatsoever to do with antisemitism.
> 
> The accusations do not refer to antisemitic actions but usually to comments, often made on social media, long before Jeremy Corbyn won the Labour leadership. Those making the charges now, did not see fit to bring them up at the time, under previous Labour leaders, but are using them now, just before mayoral and local elections, when they believe they can inflict most damage on the Labour Party led by Jeremy Corbyn.



A sensible path needs to be tread, avoiding playing into the hands of Tories and the Labour right by attacking Corbyn + allies on trumped up anti-Semitism charges, whilst not downplaying nor denying actual anti-Semitism in the party.

On another note, the FB post about relocating Israel to the US is a pretty silly argument, but one where I have seem similar amongst the left and pro-Palestinian groups in the past. Stupid, but not something that should warrant expulsion from the party for nor something to use as "evidence" that said person is a raging anti-Semite.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 28, 2016)

Tom A said:


> Interesting statement from the Jewish Socialist Group here:
> 
> 
> 
> A sensible path needs to be tread, avoiding playing into the hands of Tories and the Labour right by attacking Corbyn + allies on trumped up anti-Semitism charges, whilst not downplaying nor denying actual anti-Semitism in the party.


in the light of the jsg statement perhaps you could indicate what you believe to be the extent of actual anti-semitism in the party


----------



## nino_savatte (Apr 28, 2016)

Comical Ali sticks his oar in.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 28, 2016)

Two things that confuse me about all of this

1) Why did Livingstone defend the comments at all, and specifically what was the relevance of the initial Nazi support for Zionism to Shah's comments?
2) There was an initial at least Zionist collaboration with some elements of the Nazis, is acknowledging that now anti-Semitic?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 28, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Two things that confuse me about all of this
> 
> 1) Why did Livingstone defend the comments at all, and specifically what was the relevance of the initial Nazi support for Zionism to Shah's comments?
> 2) There was an initial at least Zionist collaboration with some elements of the Nazis, is acknowledging that now anti-Semitic?


1) motor mouth; 2) yes


----------



## Tom A (Apr 28, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> in the light of the jsg statement perhaps you could indicate what you believe to be the extent of actual anti-semitism in the party



The worst I have seen so far is a few prominent members following dodgy people (who are actual anti-Semites or at least subscribe to some kooky conspiracy BS that readily lends itself to anti-Semitic discourse) on Twitter - and it turns out some people I know as fairly sound people unfortunately follow such people too. But the Labour party is a large organisation, and there will always will be people in there with some strange views at best, dodgy views at worst. So far it seems quite mild compared with some of the stuff churned out by the regressive left, but any cover up of anti-Semitism (or any other obnoxious views) will play straight into the hands of those that want Corbyn to fall.


----------



## 1%er (Apr 28, 2016)

So Livingstone has been suspended, but what he said was historically correct, he was talking about the 1933 Haavara Agreement


----------



## danny la rouge (Apr 28, 2016)




----------



## J Ed (Apr 28, 2016)

I also think Livingstone's comments actually undersell the obviously coordinated effort by the entire establishment, not just the Israeli lobby, to smear Corbyn and Labour as anti-Semitic.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 28, 2016)

1%er said:


> So Livingstone has been suspended, but what he said was historically correct, he was talking about the 1933 Haavara Agreement



Yeah, it is absolutely correct historically and it goes beyond just that but I don't think it had much relevance to Shah's comments! That being said, it hardly makes him, a Mann claimed, a 'Nazi apologist'!


----------



## Tom A (Apr 28, 2016)

I am not one who uses terms such as "witch hunt" in a knee-jerk manner when one of the "good people" does something to attract negative attention, but this whole controversy has all the hallmarks of one.


----------



## nino_savatte (Apr 28, 2016)

I'm just reading on Twitter than Mann has been "summoned" to the Chief Whip's office about his conduct. With any luck, he'll have the whip withdrawn.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 28, 2016)

Tom A said:


> I am not one who uses terms such as "witch hunt" in a knee-jerk manner when one of the "good people" does something to attract negative attention, but this whole controversy has all the hallmarks of one.



It's McCarthyite imo.


----------



## killer b (Apr 28, 2016)

nino_savatte said:


> I'm just reading on Twitter than Mann has been "summoned" to the Chief Whip's office about his conduct. With any luck, he'll have the whip withdrawn.


That would definitely calm things down.


----------



## kingfisher (Apr 28, 2016)

people should recalibrate their anti-semitism sensors with a trip down speakers corner of a sunday,


----------



## bimble (Apr 28, 2016)

This is madness. Can't imagine anything more likely to exacerbate actual antisemitism in this country than this appalling mess, supposedly done in the name of some invisible offended 'Jewish Community'. Jesus.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 28, 2016)

nino_savatte said:


> I'm just reading on Twitter than Mann has been "summoned" to the Chief Whip's office about his conduct. With any luck, he'll have the whip withdrawn.


or be laid into with one


----------



## Tom A (Apr 28, 2016)

I do not deny that the accused may have said some silly things in the past, but it's still something I would shrug off if it appeared in my FB or Twitter feed. I have seen worse examples of left anti-Semitism outside of Labour.


----------



## 1%er (Apr 28, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Yeah, it is absolutely correct historically and it goes beyond just that but I don't think it had much relevance to Shah's comments! That being said, it hardly makes him, a Mann claimed, a 'Nazi apologist'!


My point was only that he has been suspended because he reminded people of history (nothing to do with Shah's comments). Using antisemitism has been a tactic for years to try and stop people from complaining about the actions of the Israeli state


----------



## nino_savatte (Apr 28, 2016)

killer b said:


> That would definitely calm things down.


Mann's overstepped the line. Not only is he the chief instigator of this latest smear campaign, he's made a prick of himself by shouting "Nazi apologist" to Livingstone on live telly. That's a serious disciplinary matter.


----------



## killer b (Apr 28, 2016)

nino_savatte said:


> Mann's overstepped the line. Not only is he the chief instigator of this latest smear campaign, he's made a prick of himself by shouting "Nazi apologist" to Livingstone on live telly. That's a serious disciplinary matter.


there's an election next week. they need to shut this down sharpish - suspending Mann will do the  exact opposite.


----------



## nino_savatte (Apr 28, 2016)

killer b said:


> there's an election next week. they need to shut this down sharpish - suspending Mann will do the  exact opposite.


So you think he should go unpunished? Jesus wept.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Apr 28, 2016)

1%er said:


> So Livingstone has been suspended, but what he said was historically correct, he was talking about the 1933 Haavara Agreement


I don't think Hitler was deporting Jews because he supported Zionism.


----------



## danny la rouge (Apr 28, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Yeah, it is absolutely correct historically and it goes beyond just that but I don't think it had much relevance to Shah's comments! That being said, it hardly makes him, a Mann claimed, a 'Nazi apologist'!


The reports are saying that he's been suspended for the allegation that he's a Nazi apologist. Which is bizarre. 

He's a fucking idiot who doesn't know when to stop digging, but he's not a Nazi apologist. 

Is he still locked in the toilet?


----------



## killer b (Apr 28, 2016)

nino_savatte said:


> So you think he should go unpunished? Jesus wept.


No. I think it'd be a strategic mistake to punish him now.


----------



## bimble (Apr 28, 2016)

He definitely shouldn't have said that Hitler "went mad" before he "ended up" killing all those jews, that _could be construed as_ apologism, but still. Absurd and also genuinely scary, I'm finding all this.


----------



## 1%er (Apr 28, 2016)

sleaterkinney said:


> I don't think Hitler was deporting Jews because he supported Zionism.


The Haavara (Transfer) Agreement was between the Nazi party and Zionist German Jews, I don't know what the motivation was, but apparently foreign ministry, Werner Otto von Hentig, supported the policy of concentrating Jews in Palestine. Hitler changed his mind about the agreement, he was against it at first then supported it.


----------



## nino_savatte (Apr 28, 2016)

killer b said:


> No. I think it'd be a strategic mistake to punish him now.


I don't. If he isn't punished now, it will never happen. He's deliberately attempting to scupper his party's chances in next week's elections. That's a* serious* matter.


----------



## gosub (Apr 28, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Yeah, it is absolutely correct historically and it goes beyond just that but I don't think it had much relevance to Shah's comments! That being said, it hardly makes him, a Mann claimed, a 'Nazi apologist'!



Distasteful spinning more than historically correct, Hitler just wanted Jews out of Germany, rather than supporting Zionism, ffs Germany wasn't even party to its intital creation, and the Mufti pointing out that he was creating a consolidated hot spot of jewish influence help lead to the murderous change of policy. At best an opportunist rather than a supporter.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Apr 28, 2016)

1%er said:


> The Haavara (Transfer) Agreement was between the Nazi party and Zionist German Jews, I don't know what the motivation was, but apparently foreign ministry, Werner Otto von Hentig, supported the policy of concentrating Jews in Palestine


Well Livingstone claims he did support it, until he went a "bit mad" and started killing them all.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 28, 2016)

best bet, suspend the pair of them till after the election then manns out the window and words had with livingston about watching his mouth. It doesn't matter that livingstones not a nazi apologist, they've just pulled the 'make the sonofabitch deny it' trick on him cos he can't keep his gob shut.


----------



## 1%er (Apr 28, 2016)

sleaterkinney said:


> Well Livingstone claims he did support it, until he went a "bit mad" and started killing them all.


I have added to my post that now says he was at first against it and them supported it, so Livingstone was correct.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 28, 2016)

gosub said:


> Distasteful spinning more than historically correct, Hitler just wanted Jews out of Germany, rather than supporting Zionism, ffs Germany wasn't even party to its intital creation, and the Mufti pointing out that he was creating a consolidated hot spot of jewish influence help lead to the murderous change of policy. At best an opportunist rather than a supporter.


How was the German govt not party to an agreement that they were co-signers of?


----------



## gosub (Apr 28, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> How was the German govt not party to an agreement that they were co-signers of?


League of Nations Mandate for Palestine 1922, Germany didn't even make its first application to join the LoN until 1924, and wasn't a member until 1926 and withdrew 9 months after Hitler came to power.


----------



## 1%er (Apr 28, 2016)

The exchange between Livingstone and John Mann is here


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 28, 2016)

Seriously - in the proper anti-semitism timeline, this agreement is key. It's a key part of their world-view - that jews (only some of course and against other jews) were behind the holocaust. You don't put this forward without being part of that world view. To publicly come out with this is beyond stupidity and i think helps identify where Livingstone has spent a lot of his political life.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 28, 2016)

Livingstone embodies the problem of the populist motor mouth with a bit of personality sitting half in and half out of the on message party machine (see also Boris Johnson, of course).  Worked well when he won the mayorality, convinces the voters that they aren't all media trained robotniks, but sure as fuck isn't working in this case. He just can't stop himself, what a fuckwit - just hasn't got an off switch.   But then, the dishonest media response to him... Mann's accusations and demonisations - fuck, it's almost as if Hillsborough didn't happen.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 28, 2016)

gosub said:


> League of Nations Mandate for Palestine 1922, Germany didn't even make its first application to join the LoN until 1924, and wasn't a member until 1926 and withdrew 9 months after Hitler came to power.


What has that got to do with the agreement signed by the german state in august 1933?


----------



## J Ed (Apr 28, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> best bet, suspend the pair of them till after the election then manns out the window and words had with livingston about watching his mouth. It doesn't matter that livingstones not a nazi apologist, they've just pulled the 'make the sonofabitch deny it' trick on him cos he can't keep his gob shut.



Everyone, even people like Lansman, have come out against Livingstone. He is gone for good.


----------



## DJWrongspeed (Apr 28, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Yeah, it is absolutely correct historically and it goes beyond just that but I don't think it had much relevance to Shah's comments! That being said, it hardly makes him, a Mann claimed, a 'Nazi apologist'!


You mirror my thoughts here. I don't get what all the fuss is about? The Nazi stuff is a distraction and since when has criticising the Israeli government made you anti-semitic ?


----------



## mk12 (Apr 28, 2016)

> I don't get what all the fuss is about



And people deny that the left (or at least sections of it) has a problem with anti-Semitism?!?


----------



## DJWrongspeed (Apr 28, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Seriously - in the proper anti-semitism timeline, this agreement is key. It's a key part of their world-view - that jews (only some of course and against other jews) were behind the holocaust. You don't put this forward without being part of that world view. To publicly come out with this is beyond stupidity and i think helps identify where Livingstone has spent a lot of his political life.


Thanks for the clarification.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 28, 2016)

DJWrongspeed said:


> You mirror my thoughts here. I don't get what all the fuss is about? The Nazi stuff is a distraction and since when has criticising the Israeli government made you anti-semitic ?


The Nazi stuff was beyond stupid if it's being reported correctly. 



> Let's remember, when Hitler won his election in 1932 his policy then was that Jews should be moved to Israel. He was supporting Zionism before he went mad and ended up killing six million Jews



That's a gross misrepresentation of history, implying that Hitler's antisemitism came only later when he 'went mad', and that before that he had 'supported Zionism'. Mein Kampf was written in 1925.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 28, 2016)

Just think, if Livingstone hadn't said anything Naz Shah would probably not even be the top news story atm. Now this is going to run for days, maybe weeks.


----------



## gosub (Apr 28, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> The Nazi stuff was beyond stupid if it's being reported correctly.
> 
> 
> 
> That's a gross misrepresentation of history, implying that Hitler's antisemitism came only later when he 'went mad', and that before that he had 'supported Zionism'. Mein Kampf was written in 1925.


tbh I don't think Amin-al-Husseini was a good influence


----------



## bimble (Apr 28, 2016)

meanwhile, somewhere in cambridgeshire, David Cameron's having a really good day:
"It is quite clear the Labour party has got a problem with anti-Semitism ..It is now totally apparent that they have got a problem. And they have got to deal with it."


----------



## J Ed (Apr 28, 2016)

Labour suspends Ken Livingstone over Hitler and antisemitism row - Politics live



> In his comment on the Ken Livingstone affair David Cameron said that he was shouted down by Labour MPs in the Commons recently when he tried to make a point about antisemitism in the Labour party. (See 2.01pm.)
> 
> He may not be remembering this accurately. He was shouted down in the Commons last week when he criticised Sadiq Khan’s links to Suliman Gani, an imam who is deemed extremist. Hansard recalls that Jeremy Corbyn was one of the people who told Cameron he was being “digraceful” (the word Cameron recalled today).



I think he remembers just fine.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Apr 28, 2016)

keybored said:


>



What the fuck is that about? It is absolutely unacceptable.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Apr 28, 2016)

mk12 said:


> I'm sure there are anti-semites on the left, just as there are anti-semites on the right. Vicki Kirby, vice-chair of Labour's Woking branch, is certainly one of them, and she should have been kicked out of the party for her comments. I haven't personally come across any blatantly anti-Semitic lefties, but I am suspicious of some 'anti-Zionists' that I have met.



Anti-Zionism is a thin disguise for anti-Semitism.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Apr 28, 2016)

agricola said:


> It should perhaps be pointed out that the tweet in question was from October 2011, when the councillor was fourteen or fifteen years old.  (edit)It should further be pointed out that she was elected in May 2015.



So, their odious views have changed entirely in four years?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 28, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> Anti-Zionism is a thin disguise for anti-Semitism.


**must resist**

Tell me again about Hillsborough and why we should take anything that you say seriously.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 28, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> So, their odious views have changed entirely in four years?


You claim that yours have. I don't believe you. Good this game isn't it?


----------



## Sasaferrato (Apr 28, 2016)

Cloo said:


> The Jewish Chronicle has been going mad lately trying to present Corbyn and co as antisemtic, or not worthy of our trust, but I really can't see it myself. I agree it just seems to be a few weirdos on Twitter, and I suspect other parties have just as many such twats in their rank.
> 
> I do think there is sometimes a problem with antisemitism on the hard left, with people sometimes getting into bed with groups that have dodgy views when they have a mutual campaigning area, but I don't think it is a problem of the parliamentary Labour party.



The 'one bad apple' defence, something crucified on here should the police use it.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 28, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> The 'one bad apple' defence, something crucified on here should the police use it.


Yet it's one that you have used - in incomparable situations.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Apr 28, 2016)

co-op said:


> The JC is crazy these days. I read the headlines about the "anti-semitism" that they had found in the Labour Party last week and I was expecting the usual from some mad idiot in a Labour Party backwater and all they had were a series of quotes that - at worst - were borderline. EG comparing the tunnels dug into Gaza with those dug into the Warsaw Ghetto - I mean this isn't anti-semitic at all, the comparison is clear. Anyone who follows Israeli political discourse knows that comparisons to Hitler and/or the Nazis is a routine epithet between Israeli politicians - in fact it's pretty routine to go much worse - Sonderkommando etc. The Jewish Chronicle should be ignored on anti-semitism for the time being.



Anti-Semitic incidents in UK see sharp rise, figures suggest - BBC News


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 28, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> The 'one bad apple' defence, something crucified on here should the police use it.


What is wrong with you? You shouldn't be the person that you've ended up as.


----------



## nino_savatte (Apr 28, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> Anti-Zionism is a thin disguise for anti-Semitism.


Is it? No, that's just a way of silencing critics of Israel's continued occupation of the West Bank and its ongoing siege of Gaza, as well as the oppression of the Palestinian people themselves. It's what's commonly known in my line of work as "closing down discourse".


----------



## nino_savatte (Apr 28, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> Anti-Semitic incidents in UK see sharp rise, figures suggest - BBC News


Using data from the CST, no doubt. Funny how other forms of hate crime don't get a mention.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 28, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> Anti-Semitic incidents in UK see sharp rise, figures suggest - BBC News


Do break down that suggestion. And maybe make an informed comment it or something.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Apr 28, 2016)

likesfish said:


> I imagine Hamas, Fatah and members of Hezbollah etc probably arnt very reasonable what with being under the drones guns missiles assassins and anything else the Israelis  can chuck at them



Just as the people of Israel aren't very 'reasonable' when under rocket fire I dare say.


----------



## nino_savatte (Apr 28, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> What the fuck is that about? It is absolutely unacceptable.


Unlike your recent excursions into sexism and racism?


----------



## gosub (Apr 28, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> Anti-Zionism is a thin disguise for anti-Semitism.



Does n't have to be, though Israel does tar ANY criticism as anti semitic which is a problem ALSO .    But I to have suspicions


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 28, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> Just as the people of Israel aren't very 'reasonable' when under rocket fire I dare say.


Here. Now. This is it.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Apr 28, 2016)

nino_savatte said:


> Using data from the CST, no doubt. Funny how other forms of hate crime don't get a mention.



Google

Multiple newspaper articles.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 28, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> Google
> 
> Multiple newspaper articles.


Your search is for hate crimes you clown. Take this seriously.


----------



## gosub (Apr 28, 2016)

agricola said:


> It should perhaps be pointed out that the tweet in question was from October 2011, when the councillor was fourteen or fifteen years old.  (edit)It should further be pointed out that she was elected in May 2015.




Going to be an increasing problem in the digital age


----------



## bimble (Apr 28, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> Anti-Zionism is a thin disguise for anti-Semitism.



No. It's not. Really. Please kindly fuck off with that, that conflation _is_ the problem.

Definition of Antisemitism


----------



## nino_savatte (Apr 28, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> Google
> 
> Multiple newspaper articles.


Tut tut.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 28, 2016)

bimble said:


> No. It's not. Really. Please kindly fuck off with that, that conflation _is_ the problem.
> 
> Definition of Antisemitism


Conflation isn't the problem. Anti-semites hide behind anti-zionism. The problen is peploe like this clown not giving a shit enough to do the work to differentiate.

Being anti-zionist is not a defence against anti-semitism.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 28, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> What the fuck is that about? It is absolutely unacceptable.


It's almost certainly about the opposite of what you think it is about. 

Irony...


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 28, 2016)

nino_savatte said:


> Unlike your recent excursions into sexism and racism?


shurely "extended sojourns"


----------



## Sasaferrato (Apr 28, 2016)

Tom A said:


> I follow someone on Twitter who often calls out people on the left (particularly the Labour Party) for following and rewteeting anti-Semites, mostly of the "Israel the Zionists the Rothschilds da Joooooos rule the world" variety - and the people that are being followed/retweeted are indeed guilty of pushing anti-Semitic discourse. Usually they don't retweet the anti-Semitic tweets, but it's still no different to people who just casually share stuff from Britain First. Unfortunately IME there is a overlap among the fringes (and sadly not so fringe) parts of the left and the Zeitgeist types/David Icke fan club - and in my area the issue is endemic particularly amongst the anti-fracking campaigns, anti-homelessness campaigns and the remnants of Occupy. Also the pro-Palestine campaigns again have plenty of dodgy "we are all Hamas/Hezbollah" types in their midst too - and whilst you do not have to be anti-Semitic to criticise the Israeli government, it is not hard to see why such campaigns attract anti-Semites.



The stuff put out by 'Britain First' and any other far right lunatics is often disgraceful. Whether their bile is anti Muslim, or anti Jew, it is quite extraordinary that they seem to get away with it. Their anti-Muslim rants are despicable.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 28, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> Anti-Semitic incidents in UK see sharp rise, figures suggest - BBC News


but what do you think?


----------



## bimble (Apr 28, 2016)

.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 28, 2016)

bimble said:


> When I saw that I didn't get the joke either, the funny ironic anti-antisemitism or whatever. Still don't.


I might be wrong, but it appears to me to be taking the piss out of conspiracy theorists. I guess its meaning is going to depend on the context.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Apr 28, 2016)

nino_savatte said:


> Unlike your recent excursions into sexism and racism?



If you were too thick to understand what I was on about, that is hardly my problem.


----------



## bimble (Apr 28, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I might be wrong, but it appears to me to be taking the piss out of conspiracy theorists. I guess its meaning is going to depend on the context.


Yeah, I 'get it' now. Not used to seeing things like that intended ironically, internet being full of very earnest versions.


----------



## danny la rouge (Apr 28, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> The Nazi stuff was beyond stupid if it's being reported correctly.


If you're trying to defend your friend and your sentence begins that you think what she said was OK in essence but "completely over the top but ..." then your brain should engage and realise that the best place to go next is not "let's remember that Hitler ...". No, let's not remember anything to do with Hitler at this point. Let's not bring him into it. 

If I needed defending on anything, I'd ask that Ken was kept well out of the way.


----------



## danny la rouge (Apr 28, 2016)

A good tip for everyone who isn't anti-Semitic is to use the term Zionism very sparingly and very specifically. Best to avoid it altogether in general discourse with "civilians" unless you want to sound like a crazy person. Much better to stick to criticising the Israeli state and the policies of the Israeli state. It's specific and less prone to being misunderstood. 

In my opinion.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Apr 28, 2016)

treelover said:


> The Holocaust, the Left, and the Return of Hate
> 
> a long thoughtful essay on the issues, whether you agree or not.



A superb piece.

*5.* Stop treating Arabs in general and Palestinians in particular like children whose pathologies are to be patiently indulged.

Well said!


----------



## Sasaferrato (Apr 28, 2016)

cantsin said:


> took me approx 3 mins to find out that the motion attacked IS AND Kurds alike, and that Bouattia wasn't having that - her condemnation of IS has been unequivocal.



You feel that the Kurds are beyond criticism?


----------



## kingfisher (Apr 28, 2016)

do i get banned for saying hasbara trolls / mossad stooges operating on this thread


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 28, 2016)

danny la rouge said:


> A good tip for everyone who isn't anti-Semitic is to use the term Zionism very sparingly and very specifically. Best to avoid it altogether in general discourse with "civilians" unless you want to sound like a crazy person. Much better to stick to criticising the Israeli state and the policies of the Israeli state. It's specific and less prone to being misunderstood.
> 
> In my opinion.


I always use Israel state. It's so simple but so powerful.


----------



## two sheds (Apr 28, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> A superb piece.
> 
> *5.* Stop treating Arabs in general and Palestinians in particular like children whose pathologies are to be patiently indulged.
> 
> Well said!



Yep, also: 

9. Stop comparing democratic Scottish parties with Nazis, it makes you look like a frothy mouthed right wing twat.


----------



## bimble (Apr 28, 2016)

There are many who call it 'the Zionist entity' instead because calling it the Israeli state confers legitimacy which they want to show they're opposed to.


----------



## killer b (Apr 28, 2016)

kingfisher said:


> do i get banned for saying hasbara trolls / mossad stooges operating on this thread


hopefully.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Apr 28, 2016)

nino_savatte said:


> Oh dear. The subtext here is: "anti-Semitism is a uniquely leftist phenomenon" as this snippet from the title illustrates by deliberately conflating Jews with Israelis.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Unsurprisingly, I absolutely disagree with you.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 28, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> Unsurprisingly, I absolutely disagree with you.


Where?


----------



## nino_savatte (Apr 28, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> Unsurprisingly, I absolutely disagree with you.


Yeah? How about an explanation instead of just saying you "absolutely disagree" with me? What exactly is the problem with my reasoned and logical argument? Hmmm?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 28, 2016)

treelover said:


> The Holocaust, the Left, and the Return of Hate
> 
> a long thoughtful essay on the issues, whether you agree or not.


a long thoughtful and rubbish essay.

my understanding is that a lot of lefties were in favour of the establishment of the zionist entity. but tbh the zionist entity's activities a) around the foundation of the state; b) around the precipitation of war in 1967; c) the subsequent behaviour in the occupied territories: all these mean, at least to me, that what sympathy and support the zionist entity had in its early days had, by at the mid-1980s at any rate, largely dissipated: what can you say after sabra and shatila? what can you say after the last ten years of assaults on lebanon, on gaza, on the west bank? the first intifada? the second intifada? the foul, mendacious propaganda war detailed in _beyond chutzpah_?

tbh the zionist entity hasn't imo been helped by what's taught in british schools: i remember studying the conflict between the zionists and arabs for gcse, and will never forget deir yassin.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 28, 2016)

danny la rouge said:


> A good tip for everyone who isn't anti-Semitic is to use the term Zionism very sparingly and very specifically. Best to avoid it altogether in general discourse with "civilians" unless you want to sound like a crazy person. Much better to stick to criticising the Israeli state and the policies of the Israeli state. It's specific and less prone to being misunderstood.
> 
> In my opinion.


Agreed. The only caveat I'd give here is that there is a context in which the idea of Zionism, if not the word, is unavoidable, and that's when you argue against a two-state solution and for a one-state solution, based on one secular state. That's necessarily anti-Zionist, even if you avoid the term.


----------



## nino_savatte (Apr 28, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> If you were too thick to understand what I was on about, that is hardly my problem.


What are you talking about? The only person here who's too thick is _you_. But you were never one for self-awareness, were you?

You were called out on your unreconstructed sexism and racism and you didn't like it. Tough shit.


----------



## treelover (Apr 28, 2016)

mk12 said:


> Lefties revealing their dodgy views about Jews, 'moderates' embracing the chance to ramp up the pressure on Corbyn, Corbyn not really doing anything about it. Labour look a mess.



I really wish this debacle over Shah and Livingstone wasn't happening, Labour were finally defending those at the bottom and making an impact, all that is jepardised now.


----------



## nino_savatte (Apr 28, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> shurely "extended sojourns"


Maybe furloughs, as Sass is an ex-squaddie.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 28, 2016)

treelover said:


> I really wish this debacle over Shah and Livingstone wasn't happening, Labour were finally defending those at the bottom and making an impact, all that is jepardised now.


you're not familiar with the history of the labour party, are you?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 28, 2016)

treelover said:


> I really wish this debacle over Shah and Livingstone wasn't happening, Labour were finally defending those at the bott
> om and making an impact, all that is jepardised now.


Jewpaedoiresed.

They stared a fight. Why?


----------



## andysays (Apr 28, 2016)

bimble said:


> There are many who call it 'the Zionist entity' instead because calling it the Israeli state confers legitimacy which they want to show they're opposed to.



That may be their explanation, but I'm not sure it necessarily holds up. 

Talking about the Israeli state (or the British state etc) merely recognises it as a fact in the world, it doesn't of itself give it any legitimacy, whether we're talking about specific actions or general existance.

Calling it the Zionist entity may not (always) be explicitly intended to link into various anti-semitic tropes, but you don't have to push too hard before it starts to spill over into that sort of territory, IMO


----------



## nino_savatte (Apr 28, 2016)

treelover said:


> I really wish this debacle over Shah and Livingstone wasn't happening, Labour were finally defending those at the bottom and making an impact, all that is jepardised now.


You need to ask yourself "why now"? You're already halfway there with your comment.

It's all about timing.


----------



## mk12 (Apr 28, 2016)

andysays said:


> That may be their explanation, but I'm not sure it necessarily holds up.
> 
> Talking about the Israeli state (or the British state etc) merely recognises it as a fact in the world, it doesn't of itself give it any legitimacy, whether we're talking about specific actions or general existance.
> 
> Calling it the Zionist entity may not (always) be explicitly intended to link into various anti-semitic tropes, but you don't have to push too hard before it starts to spill over into that sort of territory, IMO



Pickmans uses the term 'Zionist entity' a lot, and I've always shuddered when he does. Not because he is anti-Semitic in any shape or form, but because you only tend to hear it from people with very, very dodgy views about Israel and 'the jews'.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Apr 28, 2016)

danny la rouge said:


> A good tip for everyone who isn't anti-Semitic is to use the term Zionism very sparingly and very specifically. Best to avoid it altogether in general discourse with "civilians" unless you want to sound like a crazy person. Much better to stick to criticising the Israeli state and the policies of the Israeli state. It's specific and less prone to being misunderstood.
> 
> In my opinion.



 What is the Israeli state? It is a land area and the people within it.

There is a lot of comment on Urban about the Israeli state, most of it condemnatory. One of the things that has been repeatedly denounced is the wall built to protect the Israeli people. There was a bombing the other day, the first for a long time. This really demonstrates the need for a physical barrier, and it is working.

When you have a neighbour who wants to kill you, and that neighbour is governed by a terrorist organisation, an organisation that is more than happy for its citizens to die as human shields, you need to take radical action.

You cannot separate the people and the policies of their elected government. Stating that that you are not anti-Semitic, but are anti-Zionist, is sophistry. The state of Israel and its people are one entity, that entity wants to live a life, that is not under constant threat from its terrorist neighbours, and is perfectly entitled to take whatever measures are necessary to protect its people.


----------



## bimble (Apr 28, 2016)

andysays said:


> That may be their explanation, but I'm not sure it necessarily holds up.
> 
> Talking about the Israeli state (or the British state etc) merely recognises it as a fact in the world, it doesn't of itself give it any legitimacy, whether we're talking about specific actions or general existance.
> 
> Calling it the Zionist entity may not (always) be explicitly intended to link into various anti-semitic tropes, but you don't have to push too hard before it starts to spill over into that sort of territory, IMO


I agree with you. It gets confusing in all sorts of ways. I don't know what word Pickman's model uses if he wants to talk about what I'd call an Israeli person for instance.


----------



## nino_savatte (Apr 28, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> What is the Israeli state? It is a land area and the people within it.


A state is more than just a geographical entity: it's a combination of political institutions that presents itself as a universal. If you accept Althusser's definition (you most likely don't, but hey...) then the state consists of two parts: the repressive state apparatus and the ideological state apparatus. Tell you what, how about you Google it instead? I'm bored.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 28, 2016)

I still can't get over how pointless and stupid Ken Livingstone's comments were today. He could have said nothing, but he said something, and he planned to say it before he said it which meant he thought that it was a good idea to say what he said.


----------



## bimble (Apr 28, 2016)

Trying to explain to Sasaferrato why views like what he's just posted are perfect fodder for real antisemitism would just be a waste of time. Thanks for sticking up for us Jews though sass you blithering idiot.


----------



## andysays (Apr 28, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> What is the Israeli state? It is a land area and the people within it...



This is nonsense, frankly, but to be expected from someone with your simplistic views.

Next you'll be telling us that the British state is synonomous with a land area and the people within it too...


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 28, 2016)

J Ed said:


> I still can't get over how pointless and stupid Ken Livingstone's comments were today. He could have said nothing, but he said something, and he planned to say it before he said it which meant he thought that it was a good idea to say what he said.


I'm ken.


----------



## killer b (Apr 28, 2016)

_the zionist entity_ sounds like you might be talking about one of those shape-shifting lizard fellers.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 28, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> What is the Israeli state? It is a land area and the people within it.
> 
> There is a lot of comment on Urban about the Israeli state, most of it condemnatory. One of the things that has been repeatedly denounced is the wall built to protect the Israeli people. There was a bombing the other day, the first for a long time. This really demonstrates the need for a physical barrier, and it is working.
> 
> ...


Here's a map that you probably think is very sensible. 

Look at all the stuff Israel has given up in the name of peace!


----------



## J Ed (Apr 28, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> I'm ken.



What do you mean?


----------



## kebabking (Apr 28, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> I'm ken.



Well, I know you don't like the Labour party so, you know, maybe you are....

You have managed to avoid talk of newts in your long history of posting, so well done on the subterfuge front, but I think saying 'I'm Ken' might have blown your cover.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 28, 2016)

J Ed said:


> What do you mean?


That the friendly face 'ken' gave is not true. From calling on people to scab on the RMT to what i think amounts to jew-baiting. Don't 'ken' him.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 28, 2016)

I actually think that one of the more odious comments Livingstone has made was what he said about social workers, "If you want to be nice and touchy feely then go into social work"

Weirdly the media didn't pick up on that as being something bad.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 28, 2016)

kebabking said:


> Well, I know you don't like the Labour party so, you know, maybe you are....
> 
> You have managed to avoid talk of newts in your long history of posting, so well done on the subterfuge front, but I think saying 'I'm Ken' might have blown your cover.


I might have got away with it etc


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 28, 2016)

bimble said:


> I agree with you. It gets confusing in all sorts of ways. I don't know what word Pickman's model uses if he wants to talk about what I'd call an Israeli person for instance.


a resident of the zionist entity or someone carrying their _ersatz _nationality.


----------



## danny la rouge (Apr 28, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> What is the Israeli state? It is a land area and the people within it.


No it absolutely isn't.  You're confusing country and state.  The state is the apparatus of power.


----------



## bimble (Apr 28, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> a resident of the zionist entity or someone carrying their _ersatz _nationality.


Ersatz for what?


----------



## danny la rouge (Apr 28, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> You cannot separate the people and the policies of their elected government.


Of course you can.  You do it every day.  So do I.

I am not the policies of the government, nor are the policies of my government me.  You're talking crazy.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Apr 28, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> It's long, but it's hardly thoughtful, unless you're easily-impressed by journalists being able to engage a subject for more than 500 words.
> 
> The first section - the foundation on which the article is built, mentions Downing and Kirby, but makes no attempt to detail their supposed crimes, merely re-tells the spun mass media version.
> 
> ...



The Jews had the guts and determination to carve out their own state, and the guts and determination to nurture and protect that state, right up until today. Please God, may they continue to do so, in spite of the shit constantly being thrown at them, by people who have never had to endure what Israel has endured. 

My late father served in Palestine in WWII, and despite having lost friends in the bombing of the King David Hotel, had immense admiration for the Jews. (He wasn't Jewish, but my late mother was.). I find as I age that I have considerably more time for Israel, than I do for her enemies. Israel is a bastion of probity in the midst of a sea of corruption.

There is a special place in hell, for the scum who fire rockets from civilian areas, in the full knowledge that the result will be dead children, which they can then parade in front of the world's media.

On an aside, I can't help but chuckle at the plethora of far left groups, who take themselves so seriously, but have fewer members than the letters in their names.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 28, 2016)

bimble said:


> Ersatz for what?



i was using it in the sense of fake, false, mock, simulated.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 28, 2016)

danny la rouge said:


> Of course you can.  You do it every day.  So do I.
> 
> I am not the policies of the government, nor are the policies of my government me.  You're talking crazy.


yeh but Sasaferrato identifies himself with every policy of hmg.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Apr 28, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> a resident of the zionist entity or someone carrying their _ersatz _nationality.



What exactly do you mean by that? Are you suggesting that Israel has no right of existence?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 28, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> What exactly do you mean by that? Are you suggesting that Israel has no right of existence?


no state has a right of existence. otherwise we'd still have a holy roman empire, a kingdom of navarre, a duchy of burgundy, an aztec empire etc.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Apr 28, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> View attachment 86316
> i was using it in the sense of fake, false, mock, simulated.



WTF? Are you suggesting that Israel is not a country?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 28, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> WTF? Are you suggesting that Israel is not a country?


i refuse to give any justification to the existence of the zionist entity.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Apr 28, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> no state has a right of existence. otherwise we'd still have a holy roman empire, a kingdom of navarre, a duchy of burgundy, an aztec empire etc.



Utter fucking bollocks.


----------



## treelover (Apr 28, 2016)

nino_savatte said:


> I'm just reading on Twitter than Mann has been "summoned" to the Chief Whip's office about his conduct. With any luck, he'll have the whip withdrawn.



Do you realise what impact that will have?


----------



## Sasaferrato (Apr 28, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> i refuse to give any justification to the existence of the zionist entity.



You are an anti-Semitic cunt. An utter disgrace.


----------



## belboid (Apr 28, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> The Jews had the guts and determination to carve out their own state, and the guts and determination to nurture and protect that state, right up until today. Please God, may they continue to do so, in spite of the shit constantly being thrown at them, by people who have never had to endure what Israel has endured.
> 
> My late father served in Palestine in WWII, and despite having lost friends in the bombing of the King David Hotel, had immense admiration for the Jews. (He wasn't Jewish, but my late mother was.). I find as I age that I have considerably more time for Israel, than I do for her enemies. Israel is a bastion of probity in the midst of a sea of corruption.
> 
> There is a special place in hell, for the scum who fire rockets from civilian areas, in the full knowledge that the result will be dead children, which they can then parade in front of the world's media.


being such a well informed  chap, you'll know how everything Hamas & allies are supposed to be doing today (hiding weapons in hospitals, firing from 'civilian' areas etc) was originally done by the Irgun.  And you'll know the ratio of dead Israeli children v dead Palestinian children over the last year or so (roughly 0-1000 iirr). Because you aren't being a disingenuous fuckwit crying crocodile tears to cover up for your reactionary bullshit _again_, are you?



> On an aside, I can't help but chuckle at the plethora of far left groups, who take themselves so seriously, but have fewer members than the letters in their names.


wow, another blistering insight from our resident imbecile


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 28, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> Utter fucking bollocks.


don't embarrass yourself more than you have.


----------



## treelover (Apr 28, 2016)

nino_savatte said:


> So you think he should go unpunished? Jesus wept.



The public will be supporting Mann, not the minority views like yours.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 28, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> You are an anti-Semitic cunt. An utter disgrace.


fuck off you cunt, telling jews they're anti-semitic.


----------



## bimble (Apr 28, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> View attachment 86316
> i was using it in the sense of fake, false, mock, simulated.


Yes, I know what the word means. You said you'd refer to an Israeli as a resident of the Zionist entity or a carrier of their ersatz nationality. I was asking if you think that person has a genuine nationality which this fake one is covering up.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 28, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> The Jews had the guts and determination to carve out their own state, and the guts and determination to nurture and protect that state, right up until today. Please God, may they continue to do so, in spite of the shit constantly being thrown at them, by people who have never had to endure what Israel has endured.
> 
> My late father served in Palestine in WWII, and despite having lost friends in the bombing of the King David Hotel, had immense admiration for the Jews. (He wasn't Jewish, but my late mother was.). I find as I age that I have considerably more time for Israel, than I do for her enemies. Israel is a bastion of probity in the midst of a sea of corruption.
> 
> ...


You


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 28, 2016)

bimble said:


> Yes, I know what the word means. You said you'd refer to an Israeli as a resident of the Zionist entity or a carrier of their ersatz nationality. I was asking if you think that person has a genuine nationality which this fake one is covering up.




palestinian. obviously.


----------



## danny la rouge (Apr 28, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh but Sasaferrato identifies himself with every policy of hmg.


I know you're being ironic. But because of the confusion he's having with several different concepts, I'm going to say I disagree: he doesn't.

Sas, here are some concepts you are confusing: 

A geographical area. 

People who reside within a geographical area. 

A state.

A government. 

The policies of a government. 

The self. 

Before we go any further, you're going to have to make sure you understand how each concept is being used. I'd say, from what you've said, that getting to grips with "the Self" might be the most urgent for you.


----------



## belboid (Apr 28, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> You are an anti-Semitic cunt. An utter disgrace.


Israel is an apartheid, settler colonial, state with no right to exist.  It's very existence is the main driver of conflict and discord in the middle east. While it exists, there will be permanent war.

Just so we're clear, like.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Apr 28, 2016)

danny la rouge said:


> Statement on “Labour’s problem with antisemitism” | Jewish Socialists' Group



Thank goodness for statements like this. I can't tell you angry this opportunist misuse of anti-semitism by Israeli-state apologists, rightwing tories and the labour right makes me. John Mann is a fucking disgrace and should be expelled immediately, but he won't be. The sneaky fucking cunt knows what he's doing.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 28, 2016)

A load of anti-semites now get another go.


----------



## bimble (Apr 28, 2016)

Pickman's
[QUOTE="Pickman's model said:


> palestinian. obviously.


Right. Even the residents of the Zionist entity who come from a long line of Lithuanians who only speak Yiddish? They can all just be called Palestinians. Cool, problem solved then.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 28, 2016)

Jeff Robinson said:


> . John Mann is a fucking disgrace and should be expelled immediately, but he won't be. The sneaky fucking cunt knows what he's doing.


 It really was a dirty little piece of theatre.  However much of a daft cunt Livingstone is, 'Nazi apologist', FFS!


----------



## nino_savatte (Apr 28, 2016)

treelover said:


> The public will be supporting Mann, not the minority views like yours.


I'd like you to prove that I'm in a minority. You speak of the public as though it was a monolith; it isn't.


----------



## nino_savatte (Apr 28, 2016)

treelover said:


> Do you realise what impact that will have?


There's such a thing as 'bringing the party into disrepute". Do you seriously think that piece of _theatre_, staged as it was by The Daily Politics, is serious or, dare I say it, 'grown up politics'? Have a word with yourself.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 28, 2016)

bimble said:


> Right. Even the residents of the Zionist entity who come from a long line of Lithuanians who only speak Yiddish? They can all just be called Palestinians. Cool, problem solved then.


Jesus Mary and Joseph  in the box thinking very much your thing I see


----------



## bimble (Apr 28, 2016)

Just watching Ken's interview on BBC politics show & he seems drunk, like properly pissed, slurring etc. Not as an excuse just observation.


----------



## kingfisher (Apr 28, 2016)

"the public like coldplay and voted for the nazis, you cant trust the public"


nino_savatte said:


> I'd like you to prove that I'm in a minority. You speak of the public as though it was a monolith; it isn't.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 28, 2016)

bimble said:


> Just watching Ken's interview on BBC politics show & he seems drunk, like properly pissed, slurring etc. Not as an excuse just observation.



You aren't the first person to suggest that, I can't bring myself to watch it


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 28, 2016)

bimble said:


> Just watching Ken's interview on BBC politics show & he seems drunk, like properly pissed, slurring etc. Not as an excuse just observation.


Why not eh? Lovely day for a few pints and a trip to the bookies


----------



## bimble (Apr 28, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Jesus Mary and Joseph  in the box thinking very much your thing I see


We could face slap eachother all day over whether the jewish residents of the Zionist Entity have got nationalities or not but maybe lets just drop that one shall we. .


----------



## nino_savatte (Apr 28, 2016)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Thank goodness for statements like this. I can't tell you angry this opportunist misuse of anti-semitism by Israeli-state apologists, rightwing tories and the labour right makes me. John Mann is a fucking disgrace and should be expelled immediately, but he won't be. The sneaky fucking cunt knows what he's doing.


It's quite unprecedented to be 'doorstepped' by an ostensible member of your own party with epithets and calumnies. Mann's at the centre of a lot of these smear stories.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 28, 2016)

kingfisher said:


> "the public like coldplay and voted for the nazis, you cant trust the public"


Very few people who voted for the nsdap like coldplay


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 28, 2016)

bimble said:


> We could face slap eachother all day over whether the jewish residents of the Zionist Entity have got nationalities or not but maybe lets just drop that one shall we. .


So you're saying the 1/3 residents of the z.e. who're Arab do have another nationality. Best we do move on, you're all over the shop on this one.


----------



## belboid (Apr 28, 2016)

nino_savatte said:


> There's such a thing as 'bringing the party into disrepute". Do you seriously think that piece of _theatre_, staged as it was by The Daily Politics, is serious or, dare I say it, 'grown up politics'? Have a word with yourself.


It's rare for me to agree with treelover, but he is bloody well right about this one.  Yes, of course, Mann is being a shit, playing a dirty little game.  But he knows he can be disingenuous because he's basically right in calling Livingstone a fucking idiot. To discipline him for not playing the game nicely would be the most stupid move you could make, playing right into the hands of the _maquis_, and giving them the only win they've had under Corbyn.


----------



## bimble (Apr 28, 2016)

J Ed said:


> I can't bring myself to watch it


Wish I hadn't. Comments on youtube are as you might expect. Vile, genuine antisemites are having a party.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 28, 2016)

bimble said:


> Wish I hadn't. Comments on youtube are as you might expect. Vile, genuine antisemites are having a party.



tbf that's every youtube video though


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 28, 2016)

bimble said:


> Wish I hadn't. Comments on youtube are as you might expect. Vile, genuine antisemites are having a party.


What you looking for?


----------



## Coolfonz (Apr 28, 2016)

There is idiocy and anti-semitism/borderline anti-semitism all over the place from/multiple both sides. But both sides are basically on the right. There is no real left wing involvement here. The right of the right are manipulating support of the state of Israel to attack others for anti-semitism, even Jewish folk who disagree with Israel's actions. There is a link to an article doing just that, left wing Jews have given up their ` last vestiges of Jewishness` etc. The old right wing trope of the `good Jew`. Disgusting.
The `thoughtful essay` is a relentless diatribe again making that very case, anti-the action of Israel and you secretly, or not, hate Jews, inheritors of Soviet anti-semitism etc. Chucking in things like `On the left there is open `holocaust denial``. Really? 
But some people from the centre-right like Labour and Shah who posted this stuff on the internet, you can barely believe they are taken seriously enough to stand for a bag of chips let alone be an MP. Comparing Israel to Nazi Germany is moronic -if not anti-semitic along `those Jews should know better` lines - why compare it at all? Just criticise its actions. It isn't hard. When the US bombed Iraq did people compare it to the Nazis? Or to the Soviet assault on Berlin? 
What was Livingstone on about? Hitler and Zionism? Madness. Like everywhere we have right wing people and assorted pricks fighting each other. And on their way they abuse an imaginary `left` and Jewish folk of all persuasions. Nice.
And along the road there is a real subtext from the right of hatred of Muslims, Arabic people and people from the Middle East. "Their pathologies". Sick.


----------



## nino_savatte (Apr 28, 2016)

Zelo Street nails Guido (who once proposed a deal between the Tories and the BNP in Hull - seriously) on his hypocrisy.


> And I have to tell The Great Guido that he is the last one to get all righteous about anti-Semitism, or the suggestion that anyone caught indulging in anti_semitic rhetoric should be immediately sacked. This is because the Fawkes blog has seen its fair share of anti-Semitic tropes recently. While we’re at it, the Fawkes rabble should also desist from talking about Nazi sympathisers, because their boss … er, we’ll get to that one later
> Zelo Street: Guido Fawked - Anti-Semitism Hypocrisy








That's 'Aidan' as in Aidan Burley as in Nazi-themed parties. Btw, Staines was once involved in the uber right-wing Western Goals Institute.


----------



## likesfish (Apr 28, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> Just as the people of Israel aren't very 'reasonable' when under rocket fire I dare say.



The problem is the unreasonable ones are the ones that have the guns and can stop the guns thats why gerry adams was talked to in the end.
 Niether side can kill their way to victory so they have to talk  at some point.


----------



## killer b (Apr 28, 2016)

nino_savatte said:


> It's quite unprecedented to be 'doorstepped' by an ostensible member of your own party with epithets and calumnies. Mann's at the centre of a lot of these smear stories.


Mann just took an opportunity presented to him to neutralise a key enemy. The person at the centre of todays clusterfuck is Livingstone, who is entirely responsible for it.


----------



## bimble (Apr 28, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> What you looking for?


It's like JEd said, you don't have to look for it but I could choose to actively avoid it, by not doing things like watching videos on youtube.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 28, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> There is idiocy and anti-semitism/borderline anti-semitism all over the place from/multiple both sides. But both sides are basically on the right. There is no real left wing involvement here. The right of the right are manipulating support of the state of Israel to attack others for anti-semitism, even Jewish folk who disagree with Israel's actions. There is a link to an article doing just that, left wing Jews have given up their ` last vestiges of Jewishness` etc. The old right wing trope of the `good Jew`. Disgusting.


----------



## nino_savatte (Apr 28, 2016)

killer b said:


> Mann just took an opportunity presented to him to neutralise a key enemy. The person at the centre of todays clusterfuck is Livingstone, who is entirely responsible for it.


Are you sure about that? I think that's a little naive given that the whole thing was _on camera_. 

And Dugher's on-air resignation on the same programme? 

The key word here is 'facilitation' and I'm being polite.


----------



## Coolfonz (Apr 28, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> The Jews had the guts and determination to carve out their own state, and the guts and determination to nurture and protect that state, right up until today. Please God, may they continue to do so, in spite of the shit constantly being thrown at them, by people who have never had to endure what Israel has endured.
> 
> My late father served in Palestine in WWII, and despite having lost friends in the bombing of the King David Hotel, had immense admiration for the Jews. (He wasn't Jewish, but my late mother was.). I find as I age that I have considerably more time for Israel, than I do for her enemies. Israel is a bastion of probity in the midst of a sea of corruption.
> 
> ...


This line about `firing from civilian areas` so they can `parade` dead kids to the media is really sick and shameful. When you get to this point you are really lost. The 2014 Gaza conflict iirc had 500 dead kids under 16. If you think this - and the wall etc - is the way out for the state of Israel from a constant state of conflict I think you are profoundly mistaken.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 28, 2016)

nino_savatte said:


> Are you sure about that? I think that's a little naive given that the whole thing was _on camera_.
> 
> And Dugher's on-air resignation on the same programme?
> 
> The key word here is 'facilitation' and I'm being polite.



I think that the Mann thing was coordinated but it couldn't have happened without the initial comments


----------



## weltweit (Apr 28, 2016)

Interesting while tories are ripping each other to shreds over Europe, Labour has a crisis of their own over well, very little it seems.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 28, 2016)

How long before they turn this story around on Corbyn? 2, 3 hours?


----------



## bimble (Apr 28, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> This line about `firing from civilian areas` so they can `parade` dead kids to the media is really sick and shameful. When you get to this point you are really lost.


 I grew up being told that stuff, over here, by a member of my family. As do (I think) many of the children who grow up in israel. Great way of priming the next generation of IDF soldiers for their compulsory military service.
edit: Maybe shouldn't have said that, maybe I'm making it worse, dirty jewish laundry etc. But its true. The dehumanisation of your enemy is key, pushing the idea that they don't love their children as much as you love yours, they're willing to sacrifice them for the cause etc, it's utterly disgusting but it does happen.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 28, 2016)




----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 28, 2016)

J Ed said:


>



There's never a left-turning truck when you need one


----------



## killer b (Apr 28, 2016)

nino_savatte said:


> Are you sure about that? I think that's a little naive given that the whole thing was _on camera_.
> 
> And Dugher's on-air resignation on the same programme?
> 
> The key word here is 'facilitation' and I'm being polite.


It was coordinated, doubtless - I never meant to suggest it wasn't. But that they were able to coordinate it is entirely down to Livingstone, who for some fucking reason woke up this morning and thought _The press, enemies within the party and the tories are all poised waiting for anything that can be used as evidence of antisemitism within the labour party. I know what ill do - I'll say the Zionists collaborated with hitler. That'll kill this story stone dead. 
_
What a total fucking liability. Can you imagine their delight? _Brilliant - we can save the story we were going to run with today til next week - John, do you want to take this? We can have a camera crew down there in half an hour.
_
Even if every word he said is true, Livingstone should be booted out for this, and never let near a position of responsibility again. He's fucked it.


----------



## bimble (Apr 28, 2016)

is this just sloppy work at the Guardian ?

What ken actually says in the interview on the daily politics show today is this:
_"A real antisemite doesn’t just hate the jews in Israel, they hate their jewish neighbour in Golders green or in Stoke Newington, it’s a physical loathing”. _

transcribed in the guardian that becomes
_"If you are antisemitic you hate Jews, not just the ones in Israel, you hate your neighbour in Golders Green, or your neighbour in Stoke Newington. It’s a deep personal loathing like racism."
 
_


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 28, 2016)

bimble said:


> is this just sloppy work at the Guardian ?
> 
> What ken actually says in the interview on the daily politics show today is this:
> _"A real antisemite doesn’t just hate the jews in Israel, they hate their jewish neighbour in Golders green or in Stoke Newington, it’s a physical loathing”. _
> ...


You know where the guardian shit thread is by now


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Apr 28, 2016)

J Ed said:


>




What a fucking shitcunt. To be honest, this is like a white guy calling a black person an 'uncle Tom'. I'd fucking deck the cunt if he said something like that to my face.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 28, 2016)

Jeff Robinson said:


> What a fucking shitcunt. To be honest, this is like a white guy calling a black person an 'uncle Tom'. I'd fucking deck the cunt if he said something like that to my face.


Then put the boot in I hope


----------



## bimble (Apr 28, 2016)

Jeff Robinson said:


> What a fucking shitcunt. To be honest, this is like a white guy calling a black person an 'uncle Tom'. I'd fucking deck the cunt if he said something like that to my face.


Yes. Or a coconut? It's fucking infuriating, and there's a lot of it about.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 28, 2016)

Dates.


----------



## Dogsauce (Apr 28, 2016)

J Ed said:


> How long before they turn this story around on Corbyn? 2, 3 hours?


BBC's political commentary already has, totally swallowing all the Tory talking points. It's feeble.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 28, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Dates.


Good point


----------



## J Ed (Apr 28, 2016)

I didn't mean to imply that the Hodges thing was recent.


----------



## youngian (Apr 28, 2016)

killer b said:


> Mann just took an opportunity presented to him to neutralise a key enemy. The person at the centre of todays clusterfuck is Livingstone, who is entirely responsible for it.


I take it Ken has been winding up Mann for some time. He looked liked Inspector Dreyfuss having a breakdown.


----------



## killer b (Apr 28, 2016)

Mann isn't wound up. Entirely manufactured rage.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 28, 2016)

J Ed said:


>



Fuck me. Boris Johnson giving lectures on racism.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 28, 2016)

youngian said:


> I take it Ken has been winding up Mann for some time. He looked liked Inspector Dreyfuss having a breakdown.



I actually thought he looked very controlled. I'm certainly nothing like as coherent as that when I am actually angry.


----------



## bimble (Apr 28, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Dates.


For someone who always knows exactly what everybody else's posts _really_ mean, you can be very mysterious sometimes you know.


----------



## danny la rouge (Apr 28, 2016)

bimble said:


> is this just sloppy work at the Guardian ?


With the Guardian it could be sloppy or cynical mendacity.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 28, 2016)

bimble said:


> For someone who always knows exactly what everybody else's posts _really_ mean, you can be very mysterious sometimes you know.


Only if you thought he means dates fruit or dates going out


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 28, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Fuck me. Boris Johnson giving lectures on racism.


Few more qualified


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 28, 2016)

Disgraceful piece on World Service just now about this. Yet more crap about Corbyn being 'hard left' and having questionable pro-Palestinian views. Journalist was taking a firm editorial position that Labour has a big problem with anti-Semitism, which Corbyn is in denial about - not reporting that another had said it, saying it himself.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 28, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Disgraceful piece on World Service just now about this. Yet more crap about Corbyn being 'hard left' and having questionable pro-Palestinian views. Journalist was taking a firm editorial position that Labour has a big problem with anti-Semitism, which Corbyn is in denial about - not reporting that another had said it, saying it himself.


Put a complaint in then


----------



## bimble (Apr 28, 2016)

danny la rouge said:


> With the Guardian it could be sloppy or cynical mendacity.


I don't think its sloppiness, its quite skilful really. "its a physical loathing' was strong clear language, to mishear that as 'its a personal loathing, like racism' is an odd mistake to make.


----------



## isvicthere? (Apr 28, 2016)

kingfisher said:


> "the public like coldplay and voted for the nazis, you cant trust the public"



By coincidence, I watched that episode of Peep Show last night.


----------



## nino_savatte (Apr 28, 2016)

killer b said:


> Even if every word he said is true, Livingstone should be booted out for this


If every word he said is [hypothetically] true, then why should he be kicked out? Every party has their loose cannons. Boris Johnson? Aidan Burley? However, I don't think what Livingstone said was particularly anti-Semitic; it's historically inaccurate and sloppy with the actualité, but is it evidence of endemic anti-Semitism in the Labour Party? No. 

Livingstone's mangled words have been forced through an ideological filter to help construct a particular narrative that suits Blairites and Tories alike. The Labour Right wants 'its' party back and it will destroy it rather than let anyone else have it.  The phrase "If I can't have you, then no one else can have you", sums up the psychotic mindset of these cunts. The BBC is more than happy to facilitate all of this. Livingstone is always good for a quote, so as sure as night follows day...


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 28, 2016)

nino_savatte said:


> If every word he said is [hypothetically] true, then why should he be kicked out? Every party has their loose cannons. Boris Johnson? Aidan Burley? However, I don't think what Livingstone said was particularly anti-Semitic; it's historically inaccurate and sloppy with the actualité, but is it evidence of endemic anti-Semitism in the Labour Party? No.
> 
> Livingstone's mangled words have been forced through an ideological filter to help construct a particular narrative that suits Blairites and Tories alike. The Labour Right wants 'its' party back and it will destroy it rather than let anyone else have it.  The phrase "If I can't have you, then no one else can have you", sums up the psychotic mindset of these cunts. The BBC is more than happy to facilitate all of this. Livingstone is always good for a quote, so as sure as night follows day...


What he said was clear.


----------



## killer b (Apr 28, 2016)

He should be booted because a week before the first significant electoral test for his apparent ally, when faced with a coordinated attack attempting to discredit and weaken the party he's decided for some fucking reason to amplify that attack tenfold.


----------



## killer b (Apr 28, 2016)

everything that's happened today has been entirely predictable, once Livingstone opened his stupid gob.


----------



## bimble (Apr 28, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> What he said was clear.


He said lots of different things today.
I think mostly he was trying to get the message across that that criticism of the actions of the Israeli state does not equal being an antisemite but he failed at that abysmally. Being drunk at the time is no excuse, he fucked it up royally for sure and made a bad situation 10 times worse.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 28, 2016)

oh god some of the attempts to defend this are just awful as well, even more fodder for the Labour Right


----------



## DrRingDing (Apr 28, 2016)

What did he say?


----------



## killer b (Apr 28, 2016)

_something something hitler_, i think.


----------



## CNT36 (Apr 28, 2016)

belboid said:


> Israel is an apartheid, settler colonial, state with no right to exist.  It's very existence is the main driver of conflict and discord in the middle east.


Really? The main driver of conflict and discord in the Middle East is Israel's existence. Bit of a stretch.


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 28, 2016)

Given a lot of this stuff has been a coordinated attack from the right leading upto today, what the fuck was Ken even thinking? All he had to do was refuse to be drawn into any of this with a 'well, I've not personally experienced any anti-semitism within the party, and the Shah situation is a matter for the Labour cabinet/party and the minister involved'. Fuck sake.


----------



## DrRingDing (Apr 28, 2016)

killer b said:


> _something something hitler_, i think.



Whats he being hung for?


----------



## killer b (Apr 28, 2016)

being a massive prick.


----------



## DrRingDing (Apr 28, 2016)

Then what was it?


----------



## killer b (Apr 28, 2016)

what was what?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 28, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> Given a lot of this stuff has been a coordinated attack from the right leading upto today, what the fuck was Ken even thinking? All he had to do was refuse to be drawn into any of this with a 'well, I've not personally experienced any anti-semitism within the party, and the Shah situation is a matter for the Labour cabinet/party and the minister involved'. Fuck sake.


Yeh but they bought him a pint


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 28, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> Then what was it?


Say something.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 28, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Say something.


Wonder if he's wigged out on quaaludes


----------



## DrRingDing (Apr 28, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Say something.



Stop projecting.


----------



## CNT36 (Apr 28, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> You cannot separate the people and the policies of their elected government.


I thought you were against Al Qaeda and them boys.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 28, 2016)

nino_savatte said:


> If every word he said is [hypothetically] true, then why should he be kicked out? Every party has their loose cannons. Boris Johnson? Aidan Burley? However, I don't think what Livingstone said was particularly anti-Semitic; it's historically inaccurate and sloppy with the actualité, but is it evidence of endemic anti-Semitism in the Labour Party? No.
> 
> Livingstone's mangled words have been forced through an ideological filter to help construct a particular narrative that suits Blairites and Tories alike. The Labour Right wants 'its' party back and it will destroy it rather than let anyone else have it.  The phrase "If I can't have you, then no one else can have you", sums up the psychotic mindset of these cunts. The BBC is more than happy to facilitate all of this. Livingstone is always good for a quote, so as sure as night follows day...


Problem with that is that the other MP's attack on Livingstone was correct. He was historically correct to bring up Mein Kampf and the year it was written. So they're not really mangled words - they're the words of an ignorant arse.


----------



## CNT36 (Apr 28, 2016)

kingfisher said:


> do i get banned for saying hasbara trolls / mossad stooges operating on this thread


Well you seem to have destroyed the Antisemitic bollocks that they control the mainstream media by suggesting they'd waste time here.


----------



## kingfisher (Apr 28, 2016)

CNT36 said:


> Well you seem to have destroyed the Antisemitic bollocks that they control the mainstream media by suggesting they'd waste time here.


 you what?


----------



## bimble (Apr 28, 2016)

Of all the things I've read today what's done my head in the most is this bit of the official 'international working guidelines' on the definition of antisemitism:

"_Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination (e.g. by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavour)."_
		is apparently antisemitic.

I think that includes me, amongst many others. What does that even mean - their right to self determination?

Looks like saying that anyone who questions the legitimacy of that state is open to being legitimately legally/officially labelled an antisemite. That's really not good. Beware.
Definition of Antisemitism


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 28, 2016)

bimble said:


> "_Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination (e.g. by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavour)."_
> is apparently antisemitic.
> 
> I think that includes me, amongst many others. What does that even mean - their right to self determination?




IME, critiscism isn't about self-determination and existence it's how they go about it.


----------



## bimble (Apr 28, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> IME, critiscism isn't about self-determination and existence it's how they go about it.


It says that if you think the idea of a Jewish State is a racist idea then you're an antisemite. It says nothing about how anyone goes about anything, does it?


----------



## DrRingDing (Apr 28, 2016)

bimble said:


> Of all the things I've read today what's done my head in the most is this bit of the official 'international working guidelines' on the definition of antisemitism:
> 
> "_Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination (e.g. by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavour)."_
> is apparently antisemitic.
> ...



I would suggest the entire website was constructed to slide that it.


----------



## xenon (Apr 28, 2016)

killer b said:


> He should be booted because a week before the first significant electoral test for his apparent ally, when faced with a coordinated attack attempting to discredit and weaken the party he's decided for some fucking reason to amplify that attack tenfold.



Yep. Only caught the soundbite at lunch. But FFS Ken. He knows how it goes. Let's mention Hitler. 

Idiosy, egotistic mischief...


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 28, 2016)

bimble said:


> It says that if you think the idea of a Jewish State is a racist idea then you're an antisemite. It says nothing about how anyone goes about anything, does it?



I was speaking for me, not them.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Apr 28, 2016)

If there's ever a sure fire way to quell accusations anti-Semitism it's to bring up Hitler without even being prompted.  What a numpty.


----------



## DrRingDing (Apr 28, 2016)

To be fair the state of Israel has been commiting genocide for many decades.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Apr 28, 2016)




----------



## bimble (Apr 28, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> I would suggest the entire website was constructed to slide that it.


i would suggest that you have a lie down, or shuffle off to another thread.

That website's full of stuff I could poke with a pointy stick for fun , like this for instance,




but the fact that t*he EU UK US apparently agree that calling Israel racist makes a person an antisemite* is what I was talking about.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 28, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> If there's ever a sure fire way to quell accusations anti-Semitism it's to bring up Hitler without even being prompted.  What a numpty.


Yeh but he's only been a politician 40 years


----------



## J Ed (Apr 28, 2016)

I know I'll bring up Hitler that will help people see why I'm right and they are wrong


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Apr 28, 2016)

Never bring a Hitler to an anti-Semitism fight.


----------



## xenon (Apr 28, 2016)

'Palistinions have beenn engaged in terrorism for years.'


'Turn the whole ME into a smoking hole.'


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 28, 2016)

bimble said:


> i would suggest that you have a lie down, or shuffle off to another thread.
> 
> That website's full of stuff I could poke with a pointy stick for fun , like this for instance,
> 
> ...




Where did 45% of British people get those views? Are they beliefs that activiely make them target Jewish people?

That stat looks very dodgey to me for the following reason...I could question 100 people tomorrow and conclude that x amount are anti-Muslim, homophobic etc... Many of those people may not even realise they are... because despite think or associating certain people with certain things many people haven't worked out where they got those views...much of our internalisation is passive.


----------



## bimble (Apr 28, 2016)

Yeah, Hitler, always a good option for chitchat when pinned into in an awkward corner, or, you know, maybe as a fancy dress idea.


----------



## DrRingDing (Apr 28, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


>



You doubt that?


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Apr 28, 2016)

Excellent article from Open Democracy:

The enraging and – for genuine opponents of antisemitism – dismaying truth is this: a miserable assortment of chancers, cynics and careerists is exploiting Jewish suffering to prosecute petty vendettas, wage factional warfare and discredit legitimate criticism of Israel. In the process, they are poisoning relations between British Jews and movements for social justice; fomenting antisemitism while claiming to combat it; and libelling the tens of thousands of people, many of them young, idealistic and embarking upon their first foray into politics, who joined Labour in the past year determined to make the world a less cruel and despairing place for the impoverished, the subjugated and the dispossessed.

Jeremy Corbyn hasn’t got an ‘antisemitism problem’. His opponents do.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 28, 2016)

bimble said:


> Yeah, Hitler, always a good option for chitchat when pinned into in an awkward corner, or, you know, maybe as a fancy dress idea.




One rule for some...


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 28, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> You doubt that?


How did they manage to miss the 1/3 of their population which is Arab?


----------



## bimble (Apr 28, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Where did 45% of British people get those views? Are they beliefs that activiely make them target Jewish people?


I was quoting those statistics from that website as things I'd like to question, I have no clue about them.
(Just to be clear I'm a jew who has experienced a fair amount of proper active antisemitism in this country & elsewhere but that's not relevant to this story )


----------



## DrRingDing (Apr 28, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> How did they manage to miss the 1/3 of their population which is Arab?



Have a look at how genocide is defined under international law.


----------



## bimble (Apr 28, 2016)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Excellent article from Open Democracy:
> 
> Jeremy Corbyn hasn’t got an ‘antisemitism problem’. His opponents do.


That article has now been linked on this thread 3 times. I hope people find the time to read it. Agree, its excellent.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 28, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> Have a look at how genocide is defined under international law.


Yes I know how it's defined. I am not asking a question which has anything to do with the definition.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Apr 28, 2016)

bimble said:


> That article has now been linked on this thread 3 times. I hope people find the time to read it. Agree, its excellent.



Sorry, my bad.


----------



## bimble (Apr 28, 2016)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Sorry, my bad.


No, your good, that article says it all really, I hope people get round to reading it if they're interested. I picked out the same quote as you did, because that's the thing that makes me really angry and tbh a bit scared too:
"In the process, they are poisoning relations between British Jews and movements for social justice; fomenting antisemitism while claiming to combat it'. 

Whatever this is it's not helping to reduce the othering of jews in this country, its doing a great job of the exact opposite.


----------



## DrRingDing (Apr 28, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> How did they manage to miss the 1/3 of their population which is Arab?



Not a 1/3 is it?


----------



## Sparkle Motion (Apr 28, 2016)

How did "the left" go from Cable Street to this embarrassing state of affairs? Too many clever Hitler quotes and a total lack of empathy.


----------



## DrRingDing (Apr 28, 2016)

Sparkle Motion said:


> How did "the left" go from Cable Street to this embarrassing state of affairs? Too many clever Hitler quotes and a total lack of empathy.



A big section of the left fucked off Cable Street to do a demo on the other side of town. Sound familiar?


----------



## bimble (Apr 28, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Where did 45% of British people get those views? *Are they beliefs that activiely make them target Jewish people?*
> 
> That stat looks very dodgey to me for the following reason...I could question 100 people tomorrow and conclude that x amount are anti-Muslim, homophobic etc... *Many of those people may not even realise they are... because despite think or associating certain people with certain things many people haven't worked out where they got those views*...*much of our internalisation is passive*.



They look dodgy to me too.
But don't know what you're on about really: Most racism is 'passive', isn't it?

And to be a racist doesn't involve having to  'actively target' the people you have racist views about, does it? I think that's a high bar.

Here's a bit of the breakdown from their research, such as it is - *I am not agreeing with / defending their methods / findings. *


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 28, 2016)

bimble said:


> Doesn't being a racist basically mean having ideas about people you've never met that you're not quite sure where you got those ideas from?


 Is that your personal experience?



> And to be a racist doesn't involve having to  'actively target' the people you have racist views about, does it? That's a high bar.


 I think some people don't realise or understand their prejudices...I think others don't care and act on them regardless.

What is your experience?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 28, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> Not a 1/3 is it?


So you're simply quibbling over numbers


----------



## DrRingDing (Apr 28, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> So you're simply quibbling over numbers



I'm concerned at what you're implying. Considering youve got your facts wrong.


----------



## bimble (Apr 28, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Is that your personal experience?
> 
> I think some people don't realise or understand their prejudices...I think others don't care and act on them regardless.
> 
> What is your experience?



I think the vast majority of people who are prejudiced are operating from ignorance, like _that's the definition of prejudice_.

My experience of antisemitism? Don't think i'm up to writing a few lighthearted sentences about my whole life experience of that right now, but my most recent one was this:

Couple of weeks ago I met a bloke (english, ex-punk, wearing tribal jewellery and an orange sarong) at a party whilst i was on holiday.
His name is Mickey, he seemed ok, we had a laugh for a while, we were slightly high on mushrooms.
He offered me a job in his beach bar, which is very nice, idyllic even.

But then he suddenly started talking about the Jews, and rothschilds and the international finance media conspiracy.
So I had a choice then, to say something like hey, I'm a jew, or not, and I decided not to, to just leave, politely. That sort of awkward situation has happened to me many times. Sometimes I pipe up but mostly I haven't bothered, because to do so is scary.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 28, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> How did they manage to miss the 1/6 of their population which is Arab?


I ask again with corrected figures DrRingDing


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 28, 2016)

gosub said:


> Distasteful spinning more than historically correct, Hitler just wanted Jews out of Germany, rather than supporting Zionism, ffs Germany wasn't even party to its intital creation, and the Mufti pointing out that he was creating a consolidated hot spot of jewish influence help lead to the murderous change of policy. At best an opportunist rather than a supporter.



What also fuelled the "murderous change of policy" was the Nazi hierarchy becoming aware of what the economic consequences of concentration and enslavement would entail with regard to fighting a multi-front war.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 28, 2016)

bimble said:


> No. It's not. Really. Please kindly fuck off with that, that conflation _is_ the problem.
> 
> Definition of Antisemitism



You can't say that to Sas. He's a Jew.

Or, at least, he's descended matrilineally from a Jew, although by his own admission he's never participated in Jewish culture beyond the occasional salt beef sandwich and a penchant for _kvetching_. Apparently, having the blood gives him especial insight, even with him knowing few Jews, and little about the cultures.

Odd too, how his "insights" smell of the same rancid conservatism as many of his other views.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 28, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> but what do you think?



I know what I think, that the Beeb - and the rest of the British media - should stop relying on CST figures, and actually check the data, and the questions asked to elicit the data.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 28, 2016)

danny la rouge said:


> A good tip for everyone who isn't anti-Semitic is to use the term Zionism very sparingly and very specifically. Best to avoid it altogether in general discourse with "civilians" unless you want to sound like a crazy person. Much better to stick to criticising the Israeli state and the policies of the Israeli state. It's specific and less prone to being misunderstood.
> 
> In my opinion.



It's why I always use the term "the state of Israel", and try to remember to always qualify references to the Zionism of the state as nationalist-Zionism.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 28, 2016)

kingfisher said:


> do i get banned for saying hasbara trolls / mossad stooges operating on this thread



No, just for being an arse.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 28, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> A superb piece.
> 
> *5.* Stop treating Arabs in general and Palestinians in particular like children whose pathologies are to be patiently indulged.
> 
> Well said!



It's a poorly-researched, politically-partial and historically-illiterate piece of dross.
Unsurprising that you enjoyed it!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 28, 2016)

andysays said:


> That may be their explanation, but I'm not sure it necessarily holds up.
> 
> Talking about the Israeli state (or the British state etc) merely recognises it as a fact in the world, it doesn't of itself give it any legitimacy, whether we're talking about specific actions or general existance.
> 
> Calling it the Zionist entity may not (always) be explicitly intended to link into various anti-semitic tropes, but you don't have to push too hard before it starts to spill over into that sort of territory, IMO



Hmm.
You'll find some Jews, from Liberal to _Naturei Karta_, who use the term.
They use it because the Israel of the Jewish return - the one promised by The Big Beard - is the only true Israel, and the simulacrum created by the Declaration of Independence and the subsequent "facts on the ground" *IS* merely a Zionist entity occupying that territory.
This isn't anything controversial, it's an argument any thinking Jew will understand, even if the totally disagree with it politically.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 28, 2016)

mk12 said:


> Pickmans uses the term 'Zionist entity' a lot, and I've always shuddered when he does. Not because he is anti-Semitic in any shape or form, but because you only tend to hear it from people with very, very dodgy views about Israel and 'the jews'.



I think that perhaps you hang around in the wrong circles.


----------



## DrRingDing (Apr 28, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> I ask again with corrected figures DrRingDing



Are you saying that Israel is not guilty of genocide as it kills most people in Gaza, fewer in the West Bank and fewer still in '48?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 28, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> What is the Israeli state? It is a land area and the people within it.
> 
> There is a lot of comment on Urban about the Israeli state, most of it condemnatory. One of the things that has been repeatedly denounced is the wall built to protect the Israeli people. There was a bombing the other day, the first for a long time. This really demonstrates the need for a physical barrier, and it is working.
> 
> ...



Well, we've established that you don't know what a state is, or how to differentiate between state, nation and people.

We've also established that you're unable to present even a cursory argument in favour of this "physical barrier" you're praising.

Further, you're unable to differentiate the "everyday politics" of the state of Israel, and the underlying ideology that informs policy formation and political action, or you wouldn't make the juvenile assumption that a state and its people are a single entity. They are not and *cannot* be, because a state NEVER represents all of its people.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 28, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> The Jews had the guts and determination to carve out their own state, and the guts and determination to nurture and protect that state, right up until today. Please God, may they continue to do so, in spite of the shit constantly being thrown at them, by people who have never had to endure what Israel has endured.
> 
> My late father served in Palestine in WWII, and despite having lost friends in the bombing of the King David Hotel, had immense admiration for the Jews. (He wasn't Jewish, but my late mother was.). I find as I age that I have considerably more time for Israel, than I do for her enemies. Israel is a bastion of probity in the midst of a sea of corruption.
> 
> ...



When you quote a post, it's customary to reply to the content, not to use it as a springboard for the justification of your prejudices.

Israel has suffered little. Jews have suffered a lot. The state of Israel appropriates Jewish suffering and uses it to justify actions that are barbarous. That's one of the functions of states - to make a case for exceptionalism, and to use that to justify criminal actions, but the state of Israel - during a short life - has been particularly egregious. Read a selection of histories on the state - not just something that favours your preconceptions - and you'll soon come to understand why millions of Jews say "not in my name".


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 28, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> You are an anti-Semitic cunt. An utter disgrace.



You're an ignorant philo-Semitic idiot. You're a disgrace to the term "thinking person" if you can't analyse what someone has said for *what* they've said, rather than what you want it to have said.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 28, 2016)

treelover said:


> The public will be supporting Mann, not the minority views like yours.



No, the public should be asking who benefits.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 28, 2016)

bimble said:


> Yes, I know what the word means. You said you'd refer to an Israeli as a resident of the Zionist entity or a carrier of their ersatz nationality. I was asking if you think that person has a genuine nationality which this fake one is covering up.



I would interject here - slightly tongue-in-cheek - that a majority (i.e. over 50%) of those who hold Israeli nationality also hold one *or more* other nationalities, the most usual being US or Russian passports. I can't help thinking that this reflects either a lack of faith in the stability of the state of Israel, or a hedging of bets on a ridiculously large scale.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 28, 2016)

bimble said:


> Right. Even the residents of the Zionist entity who come from a long line of Lithuanians who only speak Yiddish? They can all just be called Palestinians. Cool, problem solved then.



Of course, those from a long line of Yiddish-speaking Lithuanians will also be fluent in Hebrew, as the Zionist entity requires of every child. While I'm aware that persecution of Yiddish-speaking no longer takes place, the state did make a policy decision half a century ago to suppress Yiddish in favour of Hebrew as the "national language".


----------



## bimble (Apr 28, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Of course, those from a long line of Yiddish-speaking Lithuanians will also be fluent in Hebrew, as the Zionist entity requires of every child. While I'm aware that persecution of Yiddish-speaking no longer takes place, the state did make a policy decision half a century ago to suppress Yiddish in favour of Hebrew as the "national language".


But are they Israelis this imaginary family let's say the 3rd generation Hebrew speaking residents of the 'Zionist entity' , or what. Should they be shipped back to Lithuania? Pickman favours the Stalinist vision of a Jewish homeland in the Far East of Russia, I think. It'd be like coming home for them surely. Less good for some of the other residents like those of Iranian heritage or Iraqi  or Ethiopian but hey.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 29, 2016)

J Ed said:


>




Hodges also made a cunt of himself on BBC news this evening.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 29, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Dates.



I prefer figs, frankly.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 29, 2016)

bimble said:


> But are they Israelis this imaginary family let's say the 3rd generation Hebrew speaking residents of the 'Zionist entity' , or what. Should they be shipped back to Lithuania? Pickman favours the Stalinist vision of a Jewish homeland in the Far East of Russia, I think. It'd be like coming home for them surely. Less good for some of the other residents like those of Iranian heritage or Iraqi  or Ethiopian but hey.



Your hypothetical is nonsensical. If you're a third generation Lithuanian in Israel, you're not going to be exclusively a Yiddish-speaker,so none of the rest follows.


----------



## bimble (Apr 29, 2016)

I said they are Hebrew speakers now, this 3rd generation. It's an impossible question I know, it's the Jewish problem, basically.


----------



## William of Walworth (Apr 29, 2016)

I've read all today's updates on this thread, which (mostly) were a welcome and balanced/informed counter to all the mainstream media shitstirring 

I was especially glad to read this excellent and measured Open Democracy article (thanks to whoever posted the link to it earlier up).

That article was put online before today's stuff.




			
				Jamie Stern-Weiner said:
			
		

> [at end]_Part 2 of this article will be published next week._



So Part 2 will be much longer I suspect 

Don't know who to get most pissed off with the most  ... Mann, Livingstone, Tories, Lynton Crosby (mentioned in the below-the-line comments to the Open Democracy article), or just general Labour Party shambolicness.

Livingstone probably. Complete fucking idiot, but all the people gleefully seizing on his idiocy are shitbags as well  

The REAL Labour Party-focussed news should have been Andy Burnham in Parliament on Wednesday


----------



## William of Walworth (Apr 29, 2016)

How much will all this benefit the Tories in next weeks elections (in London especially?) do people think??


----------



## Diamond (Apr 29, 2016)

I am 32 years old and was a member of Edinburgh University from 2002-2005.

During that time, and of especial importance given that I largely moved in left-wing student circles, I heard again and again anti-semitic slurs  about Jews being cheap, stealing away money, and generally being untrustworthy.

If you wanted a cheap laugh at Edinburgh Uni in the early noughties, you called someone a Jew.


----------



## kingfisher (Apr 29, 2016)

Diamond said:


> I am 32 years old and was a member of Edinburgh University from 2002-2005.
> 
> During that time, and of especial importance given that I largely moved in left-wing student circles, I heard again and again anti-semitic slurs  about Jews being cheap, stealing away money, and generally being untrustworthy.
> 
> If you wanted a cheap laugh at Edinburgh Uni in the early noughties, you called someone a Jew.



but nothing about being secret rulers of the world, running the media, victor rothschild being the 5 man in the cambridge spy ring or 9/11? 
was this scottish people doing this? was it irony - or is this irony and im meeting the point


----------



## kingfisher (Apr 29, 2016)

or christ killing and blood libels?


----------



## Humberto (Apr 29, 2016)

kingfisher said:


> or christ killing and blood libels?



Come again if you don't mind?


----------



## Diamond (Apr 29, 2016)

It was so uncomfortable that, given I have challenged the issue of (being a North Londer dweller by origin and consequent attendee of multiple bar and  batmisvahs) all this shit that it still disturbs me today.

It's not even about politics - it's about a fundamental understanding of Judaism.

There's a really dangerous "Golders Green" [which is hilariously antiquated given that it is now largely a Japanese ethnic community] fear of a Jewish rich chap who is all hoity-toity in his beamer.  Classic KL stuff.


----------



## Diamond (Apr 29, 2016)

kingfisher said:


> but nothing about being secret rulers of the world, running the media, victor rothschild being the 5 man in the cambridge spy ring or 9/11?
> was this scottish people doing this? was it irony - or is this irony and im meeting the point



What precisely is your point?

Because if you can better define it, I might have the chance to meaningfully respond to it.


----------



## xenon (Apr 29, 2016)

kingfisher said:


> or christ killing and blood libels?


 Oh for fuck sake shut up. 
  Yeah  I am being paid for this. 

 The trope of the Jews as money lenders bankers. Just read some history.   How that came to be. The Bible. Kings exploiting,  theological niceties to borrow money and denounce the lenders  when politically expedient, etc.


----------



## kingfisher (Apr 29, 2016)

Diamond said:


> What precisely is your point?
> 
> Because if you can better define it, I might have the chance to meaningfully respond to it.



yes , that being cheap is a scottish stereotype too.


----------



## Diamond (Apr 29, 2016)

kingfisher said:


> yes , that being cheap is a scottish stereotype too.



How is that relevant to your point of view on Jews?


----------



## Humberto (Apr 29, 2016)

kingfisher said:


> yes , that being cheap is a scottish stereotype too.



Go on then, whats going on that you are concerned about that the rest of us don't know about in your opinion?


----------



## Diamond (Apr 29, 2016)

Anyway - fundamental point here

The left-wing of British politics has a serious issue with Judaism

And most people would view that as being anti-semitic


----------



## kingfisher (Apr 29, 2016)

- i have in my posession a recording made in whitehall pret, im sinking some coffees, rolling fags, a womans up sits down, " ihope you arent going to smoke that in here" - uh what i say - she starts ta;lking (i start recording on the dictaphone) she says youll never guess where im from, erm , germany? no , dutch? - - and bear in mind this is monday perhaps afternoon, iv been getting all sorts of rolling around on the streets drinking talking to tramps about conspiracy theories, getting to feel real messianic - and im just baning on about how jeremy corbyn is gonna get a royal commission into 9/11 and all that - - - because before this, kens hitler - and worse - gone mad - comments , thats what they were doing linking anti semitism to conspiracy theories - now they have some real anti semitism- and i was banging on "i know piers corbyn, were gonna tell the truth, abouti all the paedophiles, jeremys gonna go out in a blaze of glory! - its gonna happen, i know these famous brixton comedians , and shaker amar and mi5s gona go down - - -   then this all happens - the woman was mossad - she told me i was safe - 

in in reference to that - Jews being Cheap, Stingy unfair in business dealings 

thats a stereotype that doesnt hurt the conspiracy-socialist going mainstream flow, because the main organ of conspiracy is the british empire - now i have this on dictaphone,  
and as this is a forum and spies run forums, n perhaps was bein a little mischevious and give the second string something to do at 2.50 - 
pound a post.
i think the whole lets wreck labour with antisemitsm was hanging above them making sure they didnt make a big thing about greville janners jewish connectiosn ( WHICH NO ONE DID) and this antisemitsm is gonna wreck talking about that - (all roads leading to leicester) - BUT MOSTLY ITS FOR THE FUTURE HISTORIANS - now i coulda named some leicester names there but i didnt - 
and not one mention of this thread of the hasbara trolls and the mossad. but thats the forum/protest thing isnt it if everyone was accusing everyone else of being spies the emporers clothes would fall out - eu exit is a mi6 soveringty power play - sisrulesmi5drools -


----------



## Diamond (Apr 29, 2016)

"They make lots of money and then spend it"

Is the basic British argument - don't be surprised when we start hearing about the upstart Somalis next.

This crap has been going on since The Huguenots.


----------



## Diamond (Apr 29, 2016)

kingfisher said:


> - i have in my posession a recording made in whitehall pret, im sinking some coffees, rolling fags, a womans up sits down, " ihope you arent going to smoke that in here" - uh what i say - she starts ta;lking (i start recording on the dictaphone) she says youll never guess where im from, erm , germany? no , dutch? - - and bear in mind this is monday perhaps afternoon, iv been getting all sorts of rolling around on the streets drinking talking to tramps about conspiracy theories, getting to feel real messianic - and im just baning on about how jeremy corbyn is gonna get a royal commission into 9/11 and all that - - - because before this, kens hitler - and worse - gone mad - comments , thats what they were doing linking anti semitism to conspiracy theories - now they have some real anti semitism- and i was banging on "i know piers corbyn, were gonna tell the truth, abouti all the paedophiles, jeremys gonna go out in a blaze of glory! - its gonna happen, i know these famous brixton comedians , and shaker amar and mi5s gona go down - - -   then this all happens - the woman was mossad - she told me i was safe -
> 
> in in reference to that - Jews being Cheap, Stingy unfair in business dealings
> 
> ...



What the fuck is this?


----------



## kingfisher (Apr 29, 2016)

my world view - the spies run it - the tail wags the dog, - and be anyones estimation mossad/shin bet have one of the best damn spy service in the world . like computer hackers shutting down centrifuges. and people saying "why would hasbara trolls post on this really popular uk website talking about politcs. "


----------



## Diamond (Apr 29, 2016)

Take a step back, have a think, and then return.

[OC apology]


----------



## Humberto (Apr 29, 2016)

kingfisher said:


> my world view - the spies run it - the tail wags the dog, - and be anyones estimation mossad/shin bet have one of the best damn spy service in the world . like computer hackers shutting down centrifuges. and people saying "why would hasbara trolls post on this really popular uk website talking about politcs. "



No offence, but you aren't going to influence this forum by calling everyone Mossad agents. They aren't.


----------



## Diamond (Apr 29, 2016)

kingfisher said:


> my world view - the spies run it - the tail wags the dog, - and be anyones estimation mossad/shin bet have one of the best damn spy service in the world . like computer hackers shutting down centrifuges. and people saying "why would hasbara trolls post on this really popular uk website talking about politcs. "



So let's just scope this

What specifically did the Jews do that was so egregious/horrible, when, where, how, and for what reason?

Please answer each point in turn.


----------



## Humberto (Apr 29, 2016)

Diamond said:


> Please answer each point in turn.



with respect. Don't go chasing him down like that.


----------



## Diamond (Apr 29, 2016)

Humberto said:


> with respect. Don't go chasing him down like that.



He should certainly be required to do so if he's one of the new bunch.


----------



## kingfisher (Apr 29, 2016)

look- i dont think the jews have done anything horrible - when i listed the list of things you didnt experience - they are what i hear at say speakers corner, see speakers corner is a bit like this place but more racist n that - (on dictaphone) one bloke from leivester shouted the word "nigger" as a park attendent (black walked by) - not at him, but he was in full flow this fella from leicester 15 year veteran , but the speakers they are all spies. like this place. 
the jews run the world stuff is no good, n i was just commentin that - youd probably get that more at a Uni Lad type uni, then jews are cheap, quite upper class , old shcool .
but the world is run by spies, the illuminati aint jewish its the british empire.
that never went away, theyv had 500 years of the spy game, whatv mossad had 60? 
what have the ZIONIST/SHIN BET israeli securocrats done thats so bad - ? wars n stuff? bombing gaza, dealing with apartheid southafrica? - 
like i have no idea about anything but just was making a point that i reckon drawyer room antisemits m perhaps moved on - and that the spies run the world, n cia mossad mi6 ARE at a fairly top table. 
yeah.


----------



## kingfisher (Apr 29, 2016)

Diamond said:


> He should certainly be required to do so if he's one of the new bunch.



what one of the new bunch of forum people that get paid to control the narrative and not mention spies? - make arguments based around politcs that i can read in the newspapers when i know stuff on the ground? - no sorry, im not and i cant- im not paid to be here. im going to be paid to take my sleeping bag and sleep in westminster tower gardens to protest the mi5 - sisrulesmi5drules


----------



## Diamond (Apr 29, 2016)

Diamond said:


> He should certainly be required to do so if he's one of the new bunch.



Pretty sure that I did not write this.

Never mind.


----------



## Humberto (Apr 29, 2016)

Diamond said:


> Pretty sure that I did not write this.
> 
> Never mind.



What?


----------



## xenon (Apr 29, 2016)

M I six don't pay decent over time now, my shift is over, I am going to bed.


----------



## xenon (Apr 29, 2016)

Diamond said:


> He should certainly be required to do so if he's one of the new bunch.





Diamond said:


> Pretty sure that I did not write this.
> 
> Never mind.



 Go to bed. You have clearly lost control of your keyboard.


----------



## Diamond (Apr 29, 2016)

There we go - I had a more strident response but certainly not the time or place.

Bonne nuit!


----------



## kingfisher (Apr 29, 2016)

#nuitdebounLDN


----------



## redsquirrel (Apr 29, 2016)

William of Walworth said:


> How much will all this benefit the Tories in next weeks elections (in London especially?) do people think??


London not at all, Khan will still win.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 29, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> Are you saying that Israel is not guilty of genocide as it kills most people in Gaza, fewer in the West Bank and fewer still in '48?


No. Try again


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 29, 2016)

Diamond said:


> "They make lots of money and then spend it"
> 
> Is the basic British argument - don't be surprised when we start hearing about the upstart Somalis next.
> 
> This crap has been going on since The Huguenots.


You don't know what you're talking about. Traditionally the "basic British argument" has been "they're not British". What, you think the jews of Hackney and Whitechapel of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries famous for their wealth?


----------



## J Ed (Apr 29, 2016)

Some interesting background here How Israel lobby manufactured UK Labour Party's anti-Semitism crisis


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 29, 2016)

Diamond said:


> Pretty sure that I did not write this.
> 
> Never mind.


Yeh the auld someone nicked my login nonsense


----------



## Manos de Piedra (Apr 29, 2016)

Has Ken fallen out with JC? 

Seems keen to give the Blairite wing sticks with which to beat Corbyn


----------



## bimble (Apr 29, 2016)

Diamond said:


> It's not even about politics - it's about a fundamental understanding of Judaism.


You what?


----------



## J Ed (Apr 29, 2016)

Diamond said:


> I am 32 years old and was a member of Edinburgh University from 2002-2005.
> 
> During that time, and of especial importance given that I largely moved in left-wing student circles, I heard again and again anti-semitic slurs  about Jews being cheap, stealing away money, and generally being untrustworthy.
> 
> If you wanted a cheap laugh at Edinburgh Uni in the early noughties, you called someone a Jew.



At that time when I was at school it was common for kids to call each other Jew, absolutely a consequence of them watching loads of South Park rather than political anti-Semitism.


----------



## bimble (Apr 29, 2016)

J Ed said:


> At that time when I was at school it was common for kids to call each other Jew, absolutely a consequence of them watching loads of South Park rather than political anti-Semitism.


I was the only jewish kid at my school and suffered serious antisemitic bullying. I can see now that this basically happened because there was one child there whose parents must have been proper old school antisemites and taught him all the classics, including 'jesus killer'. So I had 'yids out' scrawled on my stuff, got called a kike, all that, like something from another generation. My experience is unusual but Antisemitism is a real thing, it exists, it goes on plenty, but you're not going to reduce that by shutting down all criticism of the Israeli State, you'll just make it worse.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 29, 2016)

bimble said:


> I was the only jewish kid at my school and suffered serious antisemitic bullying. I can see now that this basically happened because there was one child there whose parents must have been proper old school antisemites and taught him all the classics, including 'jesus killer'. So I had 'yids out' scrawled on my stuff, got called a kike, all that, like something from another generation. My experience is unusual but Antisemitism is a real thing, it exists, it goes on plenty, but you're not going to reduce that by shutting down all criticism of the Israeli State, you'll just make it worse.



I did not mean to imply that it didn't go on, and I am sorry that you had to suffer that. All I meant is that in the school I went to I don't think there were any Jewish kids, it was used as a slur in much the same way that homophobic slurs were used, it was aimed at everyone for no reason at all. That being said if the idiots that used the slur actually found someone Jewish to taunt they probably would have.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Apr 29, 2016)

Manos de Piedra said:


> Has Ken fallen out with JC?
> 
> Seems keen to give the Blairite wing sticks with which to beat Corbyn



I think Ken has just gone fucking mental


More so


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 29, 2016)

bimble said:


> You what?


don't mind him


----------



## Dogsauce (Apr 29, 2016)

It feels like that thing at school, where some kid got bullied pretty much only because they'd react to it in a certain way, and you always wanted them just not to react that way as they'd probably get left alone.  The Labour party is acting like that kid, jumping around and reacting to this spurious shit thrown at them, and the more they panic the more the press and internal dissenters will play this game.  It's kind of cringeworthy that they've let this become a story.

But yeah, it was funny when it was UKIP (perhaps more justifiably) getting hit with the wacist stick by the press, though that was pretty much the same thing?


----------



## DrRingDing (Apr 29, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> No. Try again



I find it's unhealthy to attempt to mind read. You'll have to enlighten us.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 29, 2016)

Dogsauce said:


> It feels like that thing at school, where some kid got bullied pretty much only because they'd react to it in a certain way, and you always wanted them just not to react that way as they'd probably get left alone.  The Labour party is acting like that kid, jumping around and reacting to this spurious shit thrown at them, and the more they panic the more the press and internal dissenters will play this game.  It's kind of cringeworthy that they've let this become a story.
> 
> But yeah, it was funny when it was UKIP (perhaps more justifiably) getting hit with the wacist stick by the press, though that was pretty much the same thing?


tbh they should have said 'we blame ed miliband under whose leadership many of these things occurred. jeremy's only been leader a matter of months and where things have happened on his watch they've been dealt with immediately.'


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 29, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> I find it's unhealthy to attempt to mind read. You'll have to enlighten us.


in the course of the genocide of which you accuse the zionist entity, ''how did they manage to miss the 1/6 of their population which is Arab?'


----------



## DrRingDing (Apr 29, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> in the course of the genocide of which you accuse the zionist entity, ''how did they manage to miss the 1/6 of their population which is Arab?'



To which i refer you to the answer i gave some moments ago.


----------



## DrRingDing (Apr 29, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> in the course of the genocide of which you accuse the zionist entity, ''how did they manage to miss the 1/6 of their population which is Arab?'



You said you are aware of how genocide is defined under international law. You do not.  

Suprsisingly you are not familiar with the tactics of divide and conquer.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 29, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> To which i refer you to the answer i gave some moments ago.


it's a very simple question for a very simple person. you allege the zionist entity committed genocide. presumably you believe this to have been committed against arabs. around a sixth of the population of the zionist entity is arab. how did the zionist entity manage to miss them out of this genocide?


----------



## two sheds (Apr 29, 2016)

Diamond said:


> I am 32 years old and was a member of Edinburgh University from 2002-2005.
> 
> During that time, and of especial importance given that I largely moved in left-wing student circles, I heard again and again anti-semitic slurs  about Jews being cheap, stealing away money, and generally being untrustworthy.
> 
> If you wanted a cheap laugh at Edinburgh Uni in the early noughties, you called someone a Jew.



What was it like in right-wing student circles?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 29, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> You said you are aware of how genocide is defined under international law. You do not.


genocide can be killing all members of a group: but it was more widely defined under international law by raphael lemkin, so attempts to break down the identity or culture of a group such as e.g. armenians, jews, hutus etc fall within the definition. so stop buggering about with this dull diversions.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 29, 2016)

Statement on “Labour’s problem with antisemitism” | Jewish Socialists' Group


----------



## DrRingDing (Apr 29, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> it's a very simple question for a very simple person. you allege the zionist entity committed genocide. presumably you believe this to have been committed against arabs. around a sixth of the population of the zionist entity is arab. how did the zionist entity manage to miss them out of this genocide?



Palestinians. You are quite distgusting to deny genocide.


----------



## killer b (Apr 29, 2016)

I've just been accused of being in the pay of Mossad for expressing my irritation at Livingstone's ludicrous fuck up.

Little wonder this has been identified as the ideal direction of attack is it? They don't even need to do anything once the balls are in the air.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 29, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> Palestinians. You are quite distgusting to deny genocide.


you're disgusting for claiming i have denied genocide.

i haven't danced about this question, refusing to answer you, like you have me. i would like you to answer the question, how in this genocide did they manage to avoid - did they manage to avoid? - committing genocide against the sixth of the zionist entity's population which is arab/palestinian?


----------



## brogdale (Apr 29, 2016)

killer b said:


> Little wonder this has been identified as the ideal direction of attack is it? They don't even need to do anything once the balls are in the air.


Quite.
But that comes of extensive preparation. (Crosby at his most dangerous).


----------



## killer b (Apr 29, 2016)

I suspect they have something new on Corbyn - probably something relatively insignificant, but now they've stoked things to fever pitch it'll be impossible not to act once it's released. Probably on Tuesday.


----------



## DrRingDing (Apr 29, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> you're disgusting for claiming i have denied genocide.
> 
> i haven't danced about this question, refusing to answer you, like you have me. i would like you to answer the question, how in this genocide did they manage to avoid - did they manage to avoid? - committing genocide against the sixth of the zionist entity's population which is arab/palestinian?



YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT GENOCIDE IS.

Here let me help you. Article 2 of the Convention of Prevention and Punishment of Genocide....



> *Article 2*
> In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, *in whole or in part*, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
> 
> 
> ...



You claim  that by killing more Palestinians in Gaza, fewer in the West Bank and and fewer still in the present day in '48 the state of Israel is not committing genocide.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 29, 2016)

killer b said:


> I suspect they have something new on Corbyn - probably something relatively insignificant, but now they've stoked things to fever pitch it'll be impossible not to act once it's released. Probably on Tuesday.


LP needs to be working on Cameron's outrageous & defamatory commons display of Islamophobia when he accused Gani of IS support etc.


----------



## DrRingDing (Apr 29, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT GENOCIDE IS.
> 
> Here let me help you. Article 2 of the Convention of Prevention and Punishment of Genocide....
> 
> ...



You are not only ignorant of what genocide is, you are also ignorant of the genocide committed in '48 in the past.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 29, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT GENOCIDE IS.
> 
> Here let me help you. Article 2 of the Convention of Prevention and Punishment of Genocide....
> 
> ...


er no i haven't said anything about the zionist entity not committing genocide. oh and you haven't read my post 609 or you wouldn't make a prat of yourself claiming i don't know what genocide is: the convention you quote was the result of work by raphael lemkin.


----------



## killer b (Apr 29, 2016)

brogdale said:


> LP needs to be working on Cameron's outrageous & defamatory commons display of Islamophobia when he accused Gani of IS support etc.


That'd be good. But they're well meaning incompetents up against an expertly calibrated smear machine, with holes being knocked in their own hull by their apparent allies. I don't think there's much chance of them gaining the initiative on this.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 29, 2016)

Diamond said:


> It was so uncomfortable that, given I have challenged the issue of (being a North Londer dweller by origin and consequent attendee of multiple bar and  batmisvahs) all this shit that it still disturbs me today.
> 
> It's not even about politics - it's about a fundamental understanding of Judaism.
> 
> There's a really dangerous "Golders Green" [which is hilariously antiquated given that it is now largely a Japanese ethnic community] fear of a Jewish rich chap who is all hoity-toity in his beamer.  Classic KL stuff.



Judaism is the worship of YHVH. 
You appear to be conflating Judaism with being a Jew. The two are not the same thing. One can be a Jew without being a g-d botherer.


----------



## youngian (Apr 29, 2016)

Ken has always been a student of Godwin's Law making hyperbolic comparisons to Nazis, Pol Pot and Stalin. He knows how to play the media by giving a soundbite calculated to cause offence and then milking the extra publicity. He at least found a way of dancing with the media but if you live by the sword.. How an incumbent left wing party can use the media to its advantage without being a gobshite rentaquoter is worthy of its own thread.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 29, 2016)

Diamond said:


> "They make lots of money and then spend it"
> 
> Is the basic British argument - don't be surprised when we start hearing about the upstart Somalis next.
> 
> This crap has been going on since The Huguenots.



It's been going on - at least it's been historically-documented - since the 12th century.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 29, 2016)

bimble said:


> You what?



He's rectally orating again.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 29, 2016)

bimble said:


> I was the only jewish kid at my school and suffered serious antisemitic bullying. I can see now that this basically happened because there was one child there whose parents must have been proper old school antisemites and taught him all the classics, including 'jesus killer'. So I had 'yids out' scrawled on my stuff, got called a kike, all that, like something from another generation. My experience is unusual but Antisemitism is a real thing, it exists, it goes on plenty, but you're not going to reduce that by shutting down all criticism of the Israeli State, you'll just make it worse.



That's the idea.

Take a look at the Jewish exoduses from various Middle Eastern and North African countries in the last 68 years. Many were "helped along" by agents of the state of Israel, using the tried and tested method of going into Jewish communities, stirring things up, then sitting back and waiting for those communities to bail out and migrate to Israel. More meat for the grinder.


----------



## kebabking (Apr 29, 2016)

killer b said:


> I suspect they have something new on Corbyn - probably something relatively insignificant, but now they've stoked things to fever pitch it'll be impossible not to act once it's released. Probably on Tuesday.



Wouldn't be surprised - STW have been quietly deleting stuff from their website in the last few days, and Diane Abbot has been hitting the delete button on her Twitter feed quite hard. I doubt there's much in JC's history that will provoke outrage, but some of the people he's long associated with won't have that luxury, and  the Tories will find it very easy to take the point that 'by a man's friends shall ye know him...'


----------



## J Ed (Apr 29, 2016)

You can even see some old fashioned Brit anti-Semitism in attacks on Labour. 'No wonder the left hate Jews, they are successful/rich'


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 29, 2016)

J Ed said:


> You can even see some old fashioned Brit anti-Semitism in attacks on Labour. 'No wonder the left hate Jews, they are successful/rich'


as i say above, the old-fashioned brit anti-semitism attack would be more 'they're not british' than 'they're rich/successful': e.g. nineteenth century attacks on jews based more frequently on their loyalty and nationality than their wealth


----------



## nino_savatte (Apr 29, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> What he said was clear.


No, what he said was inelegantly expressed.


----------



## bimble (Apr 29, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> That's the idea.
> 
> Take a look at the Jewish exoduses from various Middle Eastern and North African countries in the last 68 years. Many were "helped along" by agents of the state of Israel, using the tried and tested method of going into Jewish communities, stirring things up, then sitting back and waiting for those communities to bail out and migrate to Israel. More meat for the grinder.



Yep. As the DM explained a couple of months ago, citing mysterious 'experts':  "Jews in Europe feel as threatened now in Europe as they did during World War II and the Holocaust"
That is patently a mad thing to say. 

But, if the statistics are true, then 2015 saw the highest recorded figures for Jews emigrating to Israel from Europe, most of them from France. And not all of that can be blamed on 'agents of the state of Israel', shirley.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 29, 2016)

.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 29, 2016)

bimble said:


> But, if the statistics are true, then 2015 saw the highest recorded figures for Jews emigrating to Israel from Europe, most of them from France. And not all of that can be blamed on 'agents of the state of Israel', shirley.


don't talk bollocks. please. don't talk utter bilge.

Total Immigration to Israel, by Year | Jewish Virtual Library
Total Immigration to Israel, by Continent per Year | Jewish Virtual Library

1948, 1949, 1950, 1951: where do you think those jews travelled from? the moon?


----------



## nino_savatte (Apr 29, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Problem with that is that the other MP's attack on Livingstone was correct. He was historically correct to bring up Mein Kampf and the year it was written. So they're not really mangled words - they're the words of an ignorant arse.


No, they were poorly expressed thoughts. Livingstone didn't mention Mein Kampf as far as I know. That was John Mann.


----------



## bimble (Apr 29, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> don't talk bollocks. please. don't talk utter bilge.
> 
> Total Immigration to Israel, by Year | Jewish Virtual Library



I said if the stats are true, statistics about _immigration from Europe, to Israel, in 2015. _?
Which they do seem to be. From the same website you just used;

"for the first time in history immigration from France surpassed immigration from every other country.  .. _Aliyah from Western Europe in general was up 88% over the previous year's data_, and Aliyah from the former Soviet Union was up 50%.
The rising tide of anti-Semitism and fear of terror attacks prompted *the largest immigration of Jews to Israel from Western Europe in history during 2015. The Jewish Agency reported that 9,880 Western European Jews made aliyah to Israel in 2015, the largest annual number ever recorded*. The vast majority of these immigrants (7,900) came from France, where there were two large national terror attacks as well as many individual violent attacks against Jews during the year. An estimated 800 of these individuals made aliyah from England. In total, 2015 saw 31,000 Jewish individuals from around the globe make Aliyah to Israel, a 12-year high.."
Introduction & Historical Overview | Jewish Virtual Library


----------



## killer b (Apr 29, 2016)

nino_savatte said:


> No, what he said was inelegantly expressed.


what he said had no need to be expressed at all.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 29, 2016)

bimble said:


> I said if the stats are true, statistics about _immigration from Europe, to Israel, in 2015. _?


so you didn't say 'the highest ever' i just imagined that.
Total Immigration to Israel, by Continent per Year | Jewish Virtual Library


----------



## nino_savatte (Apr 29, 2016)

killer b said:


> He should be booted because a week before the first significant electoral test for his apparent ally, when faced with a coordinated attack attempting to discredit and weaken the party he's decided for some fucking reason to amplify that attack tenfold.


Yet the likes of Boris Johnson is allowed to continue. If I were a Labour Party strategist, I'd be hitting them hard with that fact and other extant examples of Tory racism. Instead, we see cowardice and the return of the inferiority complex, which itself comes from an internalisation of the Tories' symbolic violence of the 1980s.


----------



## killer b (Apr 29, 2016)

this made me laugh, mind.


----------



## nino_savatte (Apr 29, 2016)

killer b said:


> what he said had no need to be expressed at all.


Yeah, well it's too late to undo what's been said. That said, Livingstone's words were little different to those expressed by the late Jewish historian, David Cesarani.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 29, 2016)

nino_savatte said:


> Yet the likes of Boris Johnson is allowed to continue. If I were a Labour Party strategist, I'd be hitting them hard with that fact and other extant examples of Tory racism. Instead, we see cowardice and the return of the inferiority complex, which itself comes from an internalisation of the Tories' symbolic violence of the 1980s.


yeh why hasn't cameron suspended him from the party for the picanninies comment? among other things.


----------



## nino_savatte (Apr 29, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh why hasn't cameron suspended him from the party for the picanninies comment? among other things.


It's a mystery to me why labour refuses to use this as a weapon with which to hit the Tories. There's also the case of Patrick Rock, which they're trying to keep quiet.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 29, 2016)

nino_savatte said:


> It's a mystery to me why labour refuses to use this as a weapon with which to hit the Tories. There's also the case of Patrick Rock, which they're trying to keep quiet.


trial date coming up according to wikipedia


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 29, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Some interesting background here How Israel lobby manufactured UK Labour Party's anti-Semitism crisis



Woollas family in "apple doesn't fall far from the tree" shocker!


----------



## nino_savatte (Apr 29, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> trial date coming up according to wikipedia


I suspect he'll be acquitted or he'll claim that he "was under stress". I hope that doesn't happen.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 29, 2016)

nino_savatte said:


> I suspect he'll be acquitted or he'll claim that he "was under stress". I hope that doesn't happen.


i don't think it matters, it's another example of cameron's "poor judgment": cf coulson

for poor judgment read 'associating with criminals'


----------



## two sheds (Apr 29, 2016)

And let alone all the tory MPs who've benefitted from dodgy off-shore trust funds. Why doesn't Cameron sack .... oh wait


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 29, 2016)

bimble said:


> Yep. As the DM explained a couple of months ago, citing mysterious 'experts':  "Jews in Europe feel as threatened now in Europe as they did during World War II and the Holocaust"
> That is patently a mad thing to say.
> 
> But, if the statistics are true, then 2015 saw the highest recorded figures for Jews emigrating to Israel from Europe, most of them from France. And not all of that can be blamed on 'agents of the state of Israel', shirley.



Given the reports in the British media about the volume of French Jews emigrating to Israel over the last ten years, I'm surprised there are any French Jews left. Last time I was able to check, one of the main disseminators of these stories was touting the figures of those who *expressed interest* in emigration, as volume of migrants. 
We also had a long-running thread about French Jewish out-migration ( nino_savatte may remember the thread), and the incredibly-shonky "evidence" that much of the journalism about it was based on.


----------



## agricola (Apr 29, 2016)

nino_savatte said:


> Yet the likes of Boris Johnson is allowed to continue. If I were a Labour Party strategist, I'd be hitting them hard with that fact and other extant examples of Tory racism. Instead, we see cowardice and the return of the inferiority complex, which itself comes from an internalisation of the Tories' symbolic violence of the 1980s.



The problem is though that (especially under Corbyn) they don't have the means to create these stories, or to put them in the media, or have a friendly element in the opposing party that will make part of the running with the stories. 

Take this anti-semitism row for example, which seems to have come as the result of CAAS (or someone else, though they were mentioned a couple of times) research into every (or at least every Muslim) Labour MP, PPC and councillor and which has been passed on to Guido and then into the papers.  Its also been eagerly seized upon by the maquis as something to hit their leader with, even though all these people (with the exception of Livingstone) got into Labour (or rather got into positions of power within Labour) when they were in charge. 

What Labour should try and remedy this research gap as soon as possible.  I don't think that attacking the Tories for being racist is going to be that much of a success (for a start, its probably something that most people who would conceivably vote Labour would think anyway), but detailed and truthful research into their financial dealings and the potential cost to the taxpayer would be a better bet - assuming that they don't manage to get rid of Corbyn the next election is going to be fought on economic policy, the papers won't be able to block that much of it, and it would be helpful to demonstrate what they are actually up to.


----------



## treelover (Apr 29, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Some interesting background here How Israel lobby manufactured UK Labour Party's anti-Semitism crisis



balanced source?


----------



## brogdale (Apr 29, 2016)

treelover said:


> balanced source?


You sound like those people who demand to be told "the facts" about the EU.


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Apr 29, 2016)

treelover said:


> balanced source?



Generally more reliable on these issues than the Guardian in my experience.


----------



## killer b (Apr 29, 2016)

treelover said:


> balanced source?


there aren't any.


----------



## treelover (Apr 29, 2016)

kebabking said:


> *Wouldn't be surprised - STW have been quietly deleting stuff from their website in the last few days,* and Diane Abbot has been hitting the delete button on her Twitter feed quite hard. I doubt there's much in JC's history that will provoke outrage, but some of the people he's long associated with won't have that luxury, and  the Tories will find it very easy to take the point that 'by a man's friends shall ye know him...'



have you been monitoring them?

though I can believe the worst of that shower.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 29, 2016)

Author of that piece is a horrible pro-assad liar btw. But everyone in this is lying anyway. Ken 'sun writer after Hillsborough' Livingstone included.


----------



## DrRingDing (Apr 29, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Author of that piece is a horrible pro-assad liar btw.



Can you back that up?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 29, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> Can you back that up?


Of course i can - look at the controversy his now removed pro-assad anti-revolution piece in the Jacobin from November 2013. And have a read of some of the responses.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 29, 2016)

bimble said:


> I said if the stats are true, statistics about _immigration from Europe, to Israel, in 2015. _?
> Which they do seem to be. From the same website you just used;
> 
> "for the first time in history immigration from France surpassed immigration from every other country.  .. _Aliyah from Western Europe in general was up 88% over the previous year's data_, and Aliyah from the former Soviet Union was up 50%.
> ...


i see you edited _after_ i had replied to your post. in future you may wish to simply reply to my subsequent post. now, you claimed above that 2015 saw the highest immigration to the zionist entity from 'europe'. here you shift the goalposts and say 'western europe'. why?


----------



## killer b (Apr 29, 2016)

this article from Sam Kriss is a bit slight, but makes some good points.

How to Criticise Israel Without Being a Dick | VICE | United Kingdom


----------



## killer b (Apr 29, 2016)

killer b said:


>



more from this guy. brilliant stuff. 

Air Force Amazons: Springtime for Corbyn


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 29, 2016)

killer b said:


> more from this guy. brilliant stuff.
> 
> Air Force Amazons: Springtime for Corbyn


He has an interesting piece about Press TV which touches on holocaust denial. Press tv of course being another former employer of Ken Livingstone. They could be at this for some time yet.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 29, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> He has an interesting piece about Press TV which touches on holocaust denial. Press tv of course being another former employer of Ken Livingstone. They could be at this for some time yet.


They've already had up a clip of Corbyn 'handling' a Press TV phone-in with "Ali" from London describing Israel as a disease that needs eradicating...etc.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 29, 2016)

brogdale said:


> They've already had up a clip of Corbyn 'handling' a Press TV phone-in with "Ali" from London describing Israel as a disease that needs eradicating...etc.


Yes, they'l have plenty of material - and each person that speaks up for him is going to likely have the same stuff that can then be pulled on them.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 29, 2016)

If there wasn't so much to dig into on foreign policy I wonder how much better a Corbyn leadership would be doing, then again foreign policy is who he is really.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 29, 2016)

Livingstone is _still_ talking


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 29, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Livingstone is _still_ talking


jesus won't he ever learn to stfu


----------



## gosub (Apr 29, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Livingstone is _still_ talking




well move up the bus and sit somewhere else.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 29, 2016)

When Livingstone comes to after this prolonged benzo blackout he is going to feel very, very silly


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 29, 2016)

J Ed said:


> When Livingstone comes to after this prolonged benzo blackout he is going to feel very, very silly


it'll be like one of those sunday mornings where you've been hammered the night before and you wake up and slowly but surely all the daft things you did the night before come back to you. and if you've been really pissed someone reminds you of the really bad thing you did.


----------



## teqniq (Apr 29, 2016)

Wtf is the matter with Livingstone? The guy is a complete prick


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 29, 2016)

teqniq said:


> Wtf is the matter with Livingstone? The guy is a complete prick


yeh. but he's had his moments. 14 years in the wilderness didn't harm him none when it came to the 2000 mayoral election.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 29, 2016)

I know what will fix the Hitler comment that is undermining me, my reputation and my party, I'll say I said the same thing 30 years ago


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 29, 2016)

i don't get how he's been in the game so very long and doesn't know to keep mouth shut and face front when its election week.
Could it be so simple as its that he's one of those who HAS to 'win' the immediate conversation to his own satisfaction, its so ingrained he just has to?


----------



## teqniq (Apr 29, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh. but he's had his moments. 14 years in the wilderness didn't harm him none when it came to the 2000 mayoral election.




I suppose not but he's like some idiot who's found the auto destruct button and just can't stop pressing it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 29, 2016)

it's long been fairly common knowledge he likes a pint or three: the drunken fights at parties, the stupid drunken comments to journos etc.


----------



## co-op (Apr 29, 2016)

bimble said:


> I said if the stats are true, statistics about _immigration from Europe, to Israel, in 2015. _?
> Which they do seem to be. From the same website you just used;
> 
> "for the first time in history immigration from France surpassed immigration from every other country.  .. _Aliyah from Western Europe in general was up 88% over the previous year's data_, and Aliyah from the former Soviet Union was up 50%.
> ...



These stories tend not to mention the 1,000,000+ Israeli passport holders now living and working in the EU because they don't find "a rising tide of anti-Semitism" etc etc.


----------



## gosub (Apr 29, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> i don't get how he's been in the game so very long and doesn't know to keep mouth shut and face front when its election week.
> Could it be so simple as its that he's one of those who HAS to 'win' the immediate conversation to his own satisfaction, its so ingrained he just has to?



or  Scottish and council projections are so bad, creating an alternative to blaming Corbyn


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 29, 2016)

gosub said:


> or  Scottish and council projections are so bad, creating an alternative to blaming Corbyn


what, you mean livingstone might take the blame for pisspoor poll results 'blame me i was pissed'?


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 29, 2016)

gosub said:


> or  Scottish and council projections are so bad, creating an alternative to blaming Corbyn


 he doesn't strike me as one who would fall on his sword in the manner you suggest either.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 29, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> he doesn't strike me as one who would fall on his sword in the manner you suggest either.


more fall in his pint: but again not in the manner described


----------



## J Ed (Apr 29, 2016)

gosub said:


> or  Scottish and council projections are so bad, creating an alternative to blaming Corbyn



Yeah I don't think anyone who was going to use the local and Scottish election results to attack Corbyn is going to change their mind thanks to any of this, it's going to make it even worse in their eyes/give them an excuse to go in even harder.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 29, 2016)

They should expel him from the party purely based on how little he obviously gives a shit about anyone or anything other than himself.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 29, 2016)

J Ed said:


> I know I'll bring up Hitler that will help people see why I'm right and they are wrong


I hate grey, spin doctored parliamentary politics, I'm not part of it and I prefer a politics where you do actually say what you think. However, if you engage in that game there are times where the logic of the carefully nurtured and monitored party line is clear.  As you say, relating Hitler to current day Zionism... FFS, WHY?

Livingstone's actually a canny machine operator, but just thinks he's cleverer than he is. Essentially, a shit populist.


----------



## andysays (Apr 29, 2016)

J Ed said:


> They should expel him from the party purely based on how little he obviously gives a shit about anyone or anything other than himself.



There's already been plenty of proof of that, most obviously his running for London Mayor as an Independent and against the official Labour candidate in 2000. 

He was expelled for that, but for some reason they asked him back and let him run as Labour candidate subsequently.


----------



## killer b (Apr 29, 2016)

andysays said:


> but *for some reason *they asked him back and let him run as Labour candidate subsequently.


I think it's called 'politics'.


----------



## gosub (Apr 29, 2016)

killer b said:


> I think it's called 'politics'.


he got almost as many votes as Labour and Tories combined.  Better in the tent pissing out (presumably).

Not sure he would now.


----------



## andysays (Apr 29, 2016)

gosub said:


> he got almost as many votes as Labour and Tories combined.  Better in the tent pissing out (presumably).
> 
> Not sure he would now.



And now he's back in the tent and pissing on everyone inside as well as out


----------



## killer b (Apr 29, 2016)

gosub said:


> he got almost as many votes as Labour and Tories combined.  Better in the tent pissing out (presumably).
> 
> Not sure he would now.


Quite. Blair had two options - have Livingstone as an electoral embarrassment and a thorn in his side on the government's doorstep, or have him as the Labour mayor. It was a no-brainer - Blair was a pragmatist, not a man of principle. And it was the right decision too, from his standpoint.


----------



## gosub (Apr 29, 2016)

killer b said:


> Quite. Blair had two options - have Livingstone as an electoral embarrassment and a thorn in his side on the government's doorstep, or have him as the Labour mayor. It was a no-brainer - Blair was a pragmatist, not a man of principle. And it was the right decision too, from his standpoint.



And Livingstone had proved his point, they stitched up the Labour candidacy by weighting it towards MPs and he'd wiped the floor with them


----------



## treelover (Apr 29, 2016)

J Ed said:


> If there wasn't so much to dig into on foreign policy I wonder how much better a Corbyn leadership would be doing, then again foreign policy is who he is really.



Careful now, in some circles you will get called a xenophobe or worse for that.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 29, 2016)

treelover said:


> Careful now, in some circles you will get called a xenophobe or worse for that.


what circles would those be then?


----------



## treelover (Apr 29, 2016)

"I haven't heard anything anti semitic. Livingstone stated the truth, Rothschilds supported Hitler. Rockefellers bought Israel and used Jews to colonize. There is a difference between Zionists and Jews. Sick and tired of this witchhunt, distorting truth, fact is Israeli lobby has bought Parliament and they do not want any criticism for their genocide of Palestinian people"


This is indicative of what is being posted on Momentum, JC4PM, etc, I have encountered a number of people like this, especially around Occupy.


----------



## treelover (Apr 29, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> what circles would those be then?



Circles like mentioned in my above post, ok?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 29, 2016)

treelover said:


> "I haven't heard anything anti semitic. Livingstone stated the truth, Rothschilds supported Hitler. Rockefellers bought Israel and used Jews to colonize. There is a difference between Zionists and Jews. Sick and tired of this witchhunt, distorting truth, fact is Israeli lobby has bought Parliament and they do not want any criticism for their genocide of Palestinian people"
> 
> 
> This is indicative of what is being posted on Momentum, JC4PM, etc, I have encountered a number of people like this, especially around Occupy.


yeh but tbh you have to be a bit of a loon yourself if you give any credence to anything said by occupy


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 29, 2016)

treelover said:


> Circles like mentioned in my above post, ok?


what, your post 691?


----------



## J Ed (Apr 29, 2016)

treelover said:


> "I haven't heard anything anti semitic. Livingstone stated the truth, Rothschilds supported Hitler. Rockefellers bought Israel and used Jews to colonize. There is a difference between Zionists and Jews. Sick and tired of this witchhunt, distorting truth, fact is Israeli lobby has bought Parliament and they do not want any criticism for their genocide of Palestinian people"
> 
> 
> This is indicative of what is being posted on Momentum, JC4PM, etc, I have encountered a number of people like this, especially around Occupy.



Yeah, I have seen similar on Momentum groups, the Unite group etc on facebook. I suppose one of the many strengths for the Tories of having so many elderly voters is that they don't use facebook so it's harder to nutpick them.


----------



## treelover (Apr 29, 2016)

Bimble, did you like my post 691 because it criticised these crazies, or because you agreed with them , i presume its the former.


----------



## killer b (Apr 29, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Yeah, I have seen similar on Momentum groups, the Unite group etc on facebook. I suppose one of the many strengths for the Tories of having so many elderly voters is that they don't use facebook so it's harder to nutpick them.


It isn't just nutters. Lots of weird instinctive defensive stuff going on from loads of moderate leftish people.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 29, 2016)

treelover said:


> Bible, did you like my post 691 because it criticised these crazies, or because you agreed with them , i presume its the former.


biMble. not bible. you make her sound like a religious loon.


----------



## killer b (Apr 29, 2016)

this'll help.


----------



## treelover (Apr 29, 2016)

Changed now.


----------



## bimble (Apr 29, 2016)

treelover said:


> Bible, did you like my post 691 because it criticised these crazies, or because you agreed with them , i presume its the former.



Blimey! The former.  The fact that you ask is kind of worrying (for me).

To be honest this whole thing has made me realise that I'm much more confused deep down than I let on. Having been loudly 'anti-zionist' since I was about 15, and going out of my way to be sure that everyone knew it, but I have some homework to do, just realised this morning.

Basically, if I had a time machine and magic powers, I'd definitely go back and make it so that the state of Israel was never created.
However, i_ think_ I agree with this article below. Which (even to say that much) is kind of difficult for me to come out and 'admit'. Weird.
How to tackle “left" anti-semitism


----------



## treelover (Apr 29, 2016)

killer b said:


> It isn't just nutters. Lots of weird instinctive defensive stuff going on from loads of moderate leftish people.



The right, Tories and the Maquis and their friends in the media are scouring the net for stuff as we post.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 29, 2016)

Anyone else get the feeling this may well be the beginning of the end for Corbyn as leader?


----------



## killer b (Apr 29, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Anyone else get the feeling this may well be the beginning of the end for Corbyn as leader?


it has the feel of the final few moves in a game of chess, and he's hopelessly outclassed.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 29, 2016)

killer b said:


> it has the feel of the final few moves in a game of chess, and he's hopelessly outclassed.





He is just being relentlessly harassed, I have no idea how he keeps it together mentally in the face of it.


----------



## mk12 (Apr 29, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Anyone else get the feeling this may well be the beginning of the end for Corbyn as leader?



...at a time when Burnham is getting showered with praise from all corners for his campaigning on Hillsborough.


----------



## TopCat (Apr 29, 2016)

It matters not a jot. The right are just fucking themselves.


----------



## killer b (Apr 29, 2016)

TBH, they've played this so badly they don't deserve to last the rest of the week. No discipline, no stratagy and no defences. This has been coming for months and they've been caught completely on the hop.


----------



## TopCat (Apr 29, 2016)

It's like when Labour supported Dobson for Mayor. It took a few days for Dobson to realise he was doomed from that moment.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Apr 29, 2016)

J Ed said:


> He is just being relentlessly harassed, I have no idea how he keeps it together mentally in the face of it.




Makes me more likely to vote Corbyn tbh. I'm always having trouble with our door. Never had to open it whilst being harangued by a journalist though.


----------



## TopCat (Apr 29, 2016)

killer b said:


> TBH, they've played this so badly they don't deserve to last the rest of the week. No discipline, no stratagy and no defences. This has been coming for months and they've been caught completely on the hop.



You are Jess Philips and I claim my five pounds.


----------



## treelover (Apr 29, 2016)

Behind the scenes with Jeremy Corbyn on Labour's day of crisis – video

Yet when he goes walkabout people like him,


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 29, 2016)

treelover said:


> The right, Tories and the Maquis and their friends in the media are scouring the net for stuff as we post.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 29, 2016)

One thing that's really striking to me is just how often Corbyn is on his own. Usually even MPs of any stature are seen walking around with a coterie of advisers, but the people who at the very least could stand as a physical barrier between media trolls and Corbyn just aren't there most of the time.


----------



## TopCat (Apr 29, 2016)

J Ed said:


> One thing that's really striking to me is just how often Corbyn is on his own. Usually even MPs of any stature are seen walking around with a coterie of advisers, but the people who at the very least could stand as a physical barrier between media trolls and Corbyn just aren't there most of the time.


He does not want a entourage. He has made this very clear.


----------



## Coolfonz (Apr 29, 2016)

Diamond said:


> Anyway - fundamental point here
> 
> The left-wing of British politics has a serious issue with Judaism
> 
> And most people would view that as being anti-semitic



The right don't? There is no exploitation of this to further the cause of the right is there? It's nice the right have suddenly come over all pro-Jewish, bit different to the 1930s. While simultaneously abusing left wing Jews and posting and posting things about `Jewish fools` on the internet. Now, you wouldn't be exploiting this in exactly the same way would you? Because, see, that would be...well...what do you think?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 29, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> The right don't? There is no exploitation of this to further the cause of the right is there? It's nice the right have suddenly come over all pro-Jewish, bit different to the 1930s. While simultaneously abusing left wing Jews and posting and posting things about `Jewish fools` on the internet. Now, you wouldn't be exploiting this in exactly the same way would you? Because, see, that would be...well...what do you think?


please don't bring thought into it because it just confuses him.


----------



## killer b (Apr 29, 2016)

TopCat said:


> You are Jess Philips and I claim my five pounds.


Ah, that's it. Anyone critical is a blairite. I had someone call me mossad this morning too.


----------



## TopCat (Apr 29, 2016)

killer b said:


> Ah, that's it. Anyone critical is a blairite. I had someone call me mossad this morning too.


Your mum called you what?


----------



## killer b (Apr 29, 2016)

ho, ho.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 29, 2016)

TopCat said:


> He does not want a entourage. He has made this very clear.



One of the problems with being an introvert is that most people aren't introverts and many of them (wrongly) find the behaviour of introverts to be rude and are alienated by it


----------



## TopCat (Apr 29, 2016)

He is not that introverted. He just does not like the swank of having an entourage.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 29, 2016)

J Ed said:


> One of the problems with being an introvert is that most people aren't introverts and many of them (wrongly) find the behaviour of introverts to be rude and are alienated by it


(((TopCat)))


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 29, 2016)

J Ed said:


> One of the problems with being an introvert is that most people aren't introverts and many of them (wrongly) find the behaviour of introverts to be rude and are alienated by it


I don't imagine a career politician is THAT introverted and what the press find rude is not being accorded the sort of desperate two way courting they normally get. imo obviously.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 29, 2016)

TopCat said:


> He is not that introverted. He just does not like the swank of having an entourage.



It wasn't a criticism, it's an aspect of Corbyn's character I identify with a lot, I am sure I would feel exactly the same way but it isn't helping him at all.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 29, 2016)

J Ed said:


> One of the problems with being an introvert is that most people aren't introverts and many of them (wrongly) find the behaviour of introverts to be rude and are alienated by it


yeh cos it's a telling sign of an introvert that they repeatedly give speeches to large audiences and that


----------



## J Ed (Apr 29, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> I don't imagine a career politician is THAT introverted and what the press find rude is not being accorded the sort of desperate two way courting they normally get. imo obviously.



Well yeah obviously he isn't constantly stuck in his house or whatever, it's a spectrum thing but I do think that Corbyn is more introverted than most career politicians.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 29, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Well yeah obviously he isn't constantly stuck in his house or whatever, it's a spectrum thing but I do think that Corbyn is more introverted than most career politicians.


because he insists on speaking to live audiences and meeting people?


----------



## treelover (Apr 29, 2016)

> I've yet to see really compelling evidence of a serious antisemitism "problem" in Labour. However what Livingstone said was clearly anti-semitic and comes from a man who has form. He clearly likes being provocative but the sentence "Being anti-semitic means you hate all Jews, not just the ones in Israel" is so nuts it's hard to know where to begin.
> 
> I suspect he's got nothing against Jews as such. But over the years he seems to have become an argumentative, arrogant, gratuitously provocative bully who thinks references to Hitler are clever, and that he can say any old crap he likes and nobody should pull him up on it because they're all guilty of the terrible crime of not being Ken Livingstone.
> 
> ...



posted on CIF, gets it right imo.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 29, 2016)

treelover said:


> posted on CIF, gets it right imo.


so *you* are jess phillips 

TopCat


----------



## DrRingDing (Apr 29, 2016)

killer b said:


> this'll help.




Sweet mother of pearl


----------



## bimble (Apr 29, 2016)

Jewish Socialists statement is the most liked comment on Guardian today, glad to see that, at least.


----------



## treelover (Apr 29, 2016)

> In January, the liberal-Zionist group Yachad, which campaigns for a two-state solution in Israel-Palestine based on the 1967 borders, and an end to the Israeli occupation of the Palestinian territories, organised an event with the liberal Zionist Ami Ayalon at King’s College London. This meeting was disrupted by members of the KCL Action Palestine group, with fire alarms being set off and a crowd hammering on the doors and windows of the venue.



from the AWL article

Was this a good idea?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 29, 2016)

treelover said:


> from the AWL article
> 
> Was this a good idea?


it is never a good idea to quote from the awl.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 29, 2016)

the most 'liked' reply includes 'Eric Hobsbawm, a Jew, alludes to the number of Jewish victims being closer to 4 than 6 million and he is certainly not alone.'.


----------



## DrRingDing (Apr 29, 2016)

treelover said:


> from the AWL article
> 
> Was this a good idea?



Why are you quoting that posh trot zionist cult?


----------



## bimble (Apr 29, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> Why are you quoting that posh trot zionist cult?


Not treelovers fault -I  posted it first. No idea who they are, just posted a link to a specific article. 
Not sure what you mean by the word zionist though..


----------



## DrRingDing (Apr 29, 2016)

bimble said:


> Not treelovers fault -I  posted it first. No idea who they are, just posted a link to a specific article.
> Not sure what you mean by the word zionist though..



You know exactly what I mean. Bad bimble.


----------



## bimble (Apr 29, 2016)

Actually no I don't know. I'm not even sure what I mean by it anymore though, tbh.


----------



## DrRingDing (Apr 29, 2016)

bimble said:


> Actually no I don't know. I'm not even sure what I mean by it anymore though, tbh.



It's definition is not an issue.....

Zionism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## DrRingDing (Apr 29, 2016)

Do you think Jewish people should be entitled to Palestine?


----------



## treelover (Apr 29, 2016)

J Ed said:


> the most 'liked' reply includes 'Eric Hobsbawm, a Jew, alludes to the number of Jewish victims being closer to 4 than 6 million and he is certainly not alone.'.





I wonder how many Left Unity(which yes i had high hoped for at first) alumni are involved in these attacks on Owen Jones.


----------



## treelover (Apr 29, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> Why are you quoting that posh trot zionist cult?




Dear me.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 29, 2016)

treelover said:


> I wonder how many Left Unity(which yes i had high hoped for at first) alumni are involved in these attacks on Owen Jones.



I don't know probably none of them but it could be all five of them as well, I don't think it matters


----------



## treelover (Apr 29, 2016)

At one point, LU had 2000 supporters, many are now in the LP.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 29, 2016)

'I can't be anti-Semitic because Palestinians are Semites' has to be one of the worst political arguments going


----------



## DrRingDing (Apr 29, 2016)

What time is Gorgeous George on?

I need a giggle.


----------



## JimW (Apr 29, 2016)

C4 right now


----------



## DrRingDing (Apr 29, 2016)

JimW said:


> C4 right now



Tits. I'm on the bus.


----------



## Buckaroo (Apr 29, 2016)

"Hitler's earlier work"


----------



## DrRingDing (Apr 29, 2016)

Buckaroo said:


> "Hitler's earlier work"



In reference to?


----------



## Buckaroo (Apr 29, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> In reference to?



Hitler


----------



## kebabking (Apr 29, 2016)

Gorgeous George was on Radio 5 this morning - he was not, you'll be shocked to hear, pouring oil on troubled waters or delicately navigating treacherous seas with skill and political antenae at full twitch.

with friends like these..


----------



## brogdale (Apr 29, 2016)

kebabking said:


> Gorgeous George was on Radio 5 this morning - he was not, you'll be shocked to hear, pouring oil on troubled waters or delicately navigating treacherous seas with skill and political antenae at full twitch.
> 
> with friends like these..


However, C4 News managed to make him appear as the enlightened voice of reason and good grace....they put him up against McTernan.


----------



## Dogsauce (Apr 29, 2016)

J Ed said:


> 'I can't be anti-Semitic because Palestinians are Semites' has to be one of the worst political arguments going



Is it up there with "Islam isn't a race"?


----------



## killer b (Apr 29, 2016)

Jeremy Corbyn sets up inquiry into Labour antisemitism claims


----------



## treelover (Apr 29, 2016)

> Wouldn't be a bad idea to try to tightly define anti-Semitism. At the moment, it's hard not to feel that someone enjoying a pork chop in public is in danger of having the term, "holocaust denier"" hurled at them.



posted elsewhere, really crass imo, and from an academic.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Apr 29, 2016)

teqniq said:


> Wtf is the matter with Livingstone? The guy is a complete prick


He made the tube run on time.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 30, 2016)

It's Friday, it's late and anyway I don't think I've posted this for almost a week....

"_All over people changing their votes

Along with their overcoats

If Adolf Hitler flew in today

They'd send a limousine anyway_"



The fuckers really would.


----------



## 8ball (Apr 30, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> In reference to?



He did do some nice pictures of flowers.

People seem to gloss over that nowadays.


----------



## DrRingDing (Apr 30, 2016)

8ball said:


> He did do some nice pictures of flowers.
> 
> People seem to gloss over that nowadays.



He loved his dogs too.


----------



## 8ball (Apr 30, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> He loved his dogs too.



And his Mum!


----------



## xenon (Apr 30, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> i don't get how he's been in the game so very long and doesn't know to keep mouth shut and face front when its election week.
> Could it be so simple as its that he's one of those who HAS to 'win' the immediate conversation to his own satisfaction, its so ingrained he just has to?


,,
Yes.  Egotistical, stupid, selfish.


----------



## xenon (Apr 30, 2016)

treelover said:


> posted elsewhere, really crass imo, and from an academic.



 Well, from a fucking idiot. That much is clear.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 30, 2016)

treelover said:


> "I haven't heard anything anti semitic. Livingstone stated the truth, Rothschilds supported Hitler. Rockefellers bought Israel and used Jews to colonize. There is a difference between Zionists and Jews. Sick and tired of this witchhunt, distorting truth, fact is Israeli lobby has bought Parliament and they do not want any criticism for their genocide of Palestinian people"
> 
> 
> This is indicative of what is being posted on Momentum, JC4PM, etc, I have encountered a number of people like this, especially around Occupy.



The problem is that those very generalised historical facts *are* accurate - as very generalised facts. Rothschilds the bank *did* do business with Hitler's regime (with Hjalmar Schacht's central bank), and the Rockefeller family *did* have an ongoing programme of buying parcels of land in Palestine for settlement decades before WW2. Saying "Rothschilds supported Hitler. Rockefellers bought Israel and used Jews to colonize" *IS* disingenuous, but it *ISN'T* factually inaccurate, as far as it goes


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 30, 2016)

TopCat said:


> You are Jess Philips and I claim my five pounds.



Whoa man, that's a bit harsh! 

On Jess Philips!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 30, 2016)

killer b said:


> Ah, that's it. Anyone critical is a blairite. I had someone call me mossad this morning too.



Were you attempting to assassinate a Palestinian, or sexually suborn a nuclear scientist?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 30, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Well yeah obviously he isn't constantly stuck in his house or whatever, it's a spectrum thing but I do think that Corbyn is more introverted than most career politicians.



He doesn't court publicity. In that, he's about 70 years behind the times for a Labour politician, but I don't see it as introversion. I see it as strategy.


----------



## teqniq (Apr 30, 2016)

sleaterkinney said:


> He made the tube run on time.


Not living in London, to me this is largely an irrelevance.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 30, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> He loved his dogs too.



Regularly.


----------



## Diamond (Apr 30, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> The right don't? There is no exploitation of this to further the cause of the right is there? It's nice the right have suddenly come over all pro-Jewish, bit different to the 1930s. While simultaneously abusing left wing Jews and posting and posting things about `Jewish fools` on the internet. Now, you wouldn't be exploiting this in exactly the same way would you? Because, see, that would be...well...what do you think?



A Labour MP has just come out with something antisemitic.

Why do you think the views of the right are relevant to that?


----------



## emanymton (Apr 30, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Regularly.


I don't think that comment was about you.


----------



## hash tag (Apr 30, 2016)




----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 30, 2016)

Diamond said:


> A Labour MP has just come out with something antisemitic.
> 
> Why do you think the views of the right are relevant to that?


I regret you seem out of your depth again


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 30, 2016)

8ball said:


> And his Mum!


And his niece


----------



## two sheds (Apr 30, 2016)

two sheds said:


> What was it like in right-wing student circles?



Diamond ? You've singled out left-wing student circles. What was it like in right-wing student circles? Because if it was similar in right-wing student circles, then you're being misleading.


----------



## bimble (Apr 30, 2016)

two sheds said:


> Diamond ? You've singled out left-wing student circles. What was it like in right-wing student circles? Because if it was similar in right-wing student circles, then you're being misleading.


Left wing student circles are where the free Palestine movement lives: if there is such a thing as left wing antisemitism, its all connected to that, to the subject of Israel, isn't it.



DrRingDing said:


> Do you think Jewish people should be entitled to Palestine?


You're defining as zionist any person who thinks that the country called Israel has 'a right to exist', is that right? Any Israel, even an imaginary future version of it that's back to pre-67 borders and somehow has made reparations for its past crimes etc.
To be _not _called 'a zionist', a person has to argue that the only real solution is for that entity to be dismantled somehow, erased, and history rewound, right?

Do you think America should be returned to the native americans and its settler population shipped back to Europe? Same for New Zealand, Australia, etc etc?
You might say yes to that, but you also know it'll never happen, so you've probably never bothered to argue that it should.

Anyway, I think danny la rouge was right, as usual. I'll be managing without the word Zionism / Zionist any more, unless talking about the period before the establishment of the state.


----------



## belboid (Apr 30, 2016)

Oh god, the 'should we give the us/aus/nz back' pseudo argument. Almost as useful as the 'well Arabs are Semites too' argument. Or starting a conversation with 'well, hitler...'


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 30, 2016)

bimble said:


> Left wing student circles are where the free Palestine movement lives: if there is such a thing as left wing antisemitism, its all connected to that, to the subject of Israel, isn't it.
> 
> 
> You're defining as zionist any person who thinks that the country called Israel has 'a right to exist', is that right? Any Israel, even an imaginary future version of it that's back to pre-67 borders and somehow has made reparations for its past crimes etc.
> ...


Being as *no* country has a *right* to exist, only a stupid wanker would argue the Zionist entity or Nicaragua or new Zealand have some innate right to a place among the nations of the world.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 30, 2016)

The genius of this carefully deployed attack, orchestrated by Crosby, is that it simultaneously damages the Corbyn brand and electoral chances in the forthcoming elections, whilst giving him an excuse for the debacle and stay in place.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 30, 2016)

belboid said:


> Oh god, the 'should we give the us/aus/nz back' pseudo argument. Almost as useful as the 'well Arabs are Semites too' argument. Or starting a conversation with 'well, hitler...'


Only had one ball, the other for some reason was in the Albert Hall.


----------



## bimble (Apr 30, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Being as *no* country has a *right* to exist, only a stupid wanker would argue the Zionist entity or Nicaragua or new Zealand have some innate right to a place among the nations of the world.


ok, sure, no country has a right to exist. But which others do you call 'the .... entity'?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 30, 2016)

bimble said:


> ok, sure, no country has a right to exist. But which others do you call 'the .... entity'?


You really have given up using the word Zionist I see


----------



## bimble (Apr 30, 2016)

yep. never again.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 30, 2016)

bimble said:


> ok, sure, no country has a right to exist. But which others do you call 'the .... entity'?


There is really only one reason why ersatz Israel exists, and that's because of the Zionist both jewish and, sadly often forgotten, Christian. The xian Zionist see the existence of the Zionist entity as a step toward the fulfilment of prophecy. Reagan for example, and Bush Jr, looked forward to the Zionist entity's role in the end times. Ersatz Israel describes itself as the jewish homeland. But that's a load of shit, it's an entity by and for Zionist with scant interest in jews as jews if they don't share Zionist views.


----------



## toblerone3 (Apr 30, 2016)

Israel/Palestine really is one of those subjects isn't it? Even the mention of the subject makes people go a bit nuts.  Like playing Monopoly always ends in an argument.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 30, 2016)

toblerone3 said:


> Israel/Palestine really is one of those subjects isn't it? Even the mention of the subject makes people go a bit nuts.  Like playing Monopoly always ends in an argument.


No, playing monopoly does not always end in an argument


----------



## William of Walworth (Apr 30, 2016)

brogdale said:


> The genius of this carefully deployed attack, orchestrated by Crosby, is that it simultaneously damages the Corbyn brand and electoral chances in the forthcoming elections, whilst giving him an excuse for the debacle and stay in place.



I completely agree with this, particularly the words "orchestrated by Crosby" -- not enough attention has been paid to that factor IMO.

That said, Ken Livingstone gave Crosby a really nicely giftwraped early birthday present ....


----------



## William of Walworth (Apr 30, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> No, playing monopoly does not always end in an argument




You can't be playing it well enough then


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 30, 2016)

William of Walworth said:


> You can't be playing it well enough then


No, there is no argument because I am right.


----------



## William of Walworth (Apr 30, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> No, there is no argument because I am right.




Congratulations, that's the best known argument-abolishing method when Monopoly's going on


----------



## hash tag (Apr 30, 2016)

Ken is back on LBC and is getting rather heated.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 30, 2016)

Oh this will end well


----------



## bimble (Apr 30, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> There is really only one reason why ersatz Israel exists, and that's because of the Zionist both jewish and, sadly often forgotten, Christian. The xian Zionist see the existence of the Zionist entity as a step toward the fulfilment of prophecy. Reagan for example, and Bush Jr, looked forward to the Zionist entity's role in the end times. Ersatz Israel describes itself as the jewish homeland. But that's a load of shit, it's an entity by and for Zionist with scant interest in jews as jews if they don't share Zionist views.


Thanks for that, excellent piece of goysplaining. I am well aware of the role of end of times christian loons in supporting the return of jews to the holy land etc. You'll have to spread the word (about how Israel has nothing to do with them really) to the 93% of British Jews who say that it is a significant part of their jewish identity in some way.


----------



## William of Walworth (Apr 30, 2016)

Livingstone, never known for shutting the fuck up


----------



## tim (Apr 30, 2016)

toblerone3 said:


> Israel/Palestine really is one of those subjects isn't it? Even the mention of the subject makes people go a bit nuts.  Like playing Monopoly always ends in an argument.



Hardly surprising given the Zionist Entity's presence in Judea and Samaria.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 30, 2016)

bimble said:


> Thanks for that, excellent piece of goysplaining. I am well aware of the role of end of times christian loons in supporting the return of jews to the holy land etc. You'll have to spread the word (about how Israel has nothing to do with them really) to the 93% of British Jews who say that it is a significant part of their jewish identity in some way.


Goysplaining? Really? I know you've seen the bit above where I take Sasaferrato to task for calling me anti-semitic. In the light of that you may wish to reconsider your extremely offensive post.


----------



## bimble (Apr 30, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Goysplaining? Really?


not meant to offend, but very patronising what you wrote, don't you think?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 30, 2016)

bimble said:


> not meant to offend, but very patronising what you wrote, don't you think?


Yeh. Not meant to offend when I've pointed out my jewish heritage on this very thread. Go fuck yourself.


----------



## MAD-T-REX (Apr 30, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> The problem is that those very generalised historical facts *are* accurate - as very generalised facts. Rothschilds the bank *did* do business with Hitler's regime (with Hjalmar Schacht's central bank), and the Rockefeller family *did* have an ongoing programme of buying parcels of land in Palestine for settlement decades before WW2. Saying "Rothschilds supported Hitler. Rockefellers bought Israel and used Jews to colonize" *IS* disingenuous, but it *ISN'T* factually inaccurate, as far as it goes


A good piece along these lines: Historical Truth | @johndavidblake



> "In 1933, after competing in several democratic elections and finally becoming the leader of the largest party in the German parliament, Adolf Hitler was appointed Chancellor of Germany. In the subsequent election, his party went on to achieve a higher percentage of the vote than before his appointment. In the following years, he made attempts to reverse the details of a treaty imposed on Germany in the wake of the First World War that was agreed internationally to have been unjust. However, Germany’s neighbours, France and Britain—rulers of the two largest empires in the world—were unhappy about these attempted revisions and declared war on Germany in September 1939. In 1941, both the USA and Soviet Union joined the conflict, despite both having promised to stay out of it. The war was terrible, including the fire-bombing of German cities, the horrendous mistreatment of German prisoners of war by the Soviets, until ultimately the forces of totalitarian Russia invaded Germany, precipitating mass forced migration of Germans in Eastern Europe and destroying the capital, Berlin.”
> 
> Historical truth is a funny thing – it lives in the whole, not in the parts. Any relatively knowledgeable reader of the above paragraph would spot instantly that it is a terrible perversion of the historical truth of events in Europe in the 1930s and 1940s, yet no individual part of it is factually inaccurate. The Nazis were indeed the largest party in the 1933 German election, though missing here is the important context that this was an election in which the polling booths were surrounded by Nazi stormtroopers; both the USA and the USSR did join the war having attempted to stay out, but in both cases it was because Hitler had declared war on them. Genocide is entirely absent. Important context and relevant evidence has been missed, to render these individual accurate facts into a something that no one remotely familiar with the period concerned could call “the truth”.


----------



## bimble (Apr 30, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh. Not meant to offend when I've pointed out my jewish heritage on this very thread. Go fuck yourself.


Nice. You seriously argue that the only reason it exists is because of the agitation of end of times lunatics? Fuck you too sir, whatever your ethnic background.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 30, 2016)

bimble said:


> Nice. You seriously argue that the only reason it exists is because of the agitation of end of times lunatics? Fuck you too sir, whatever your ethnic background.


What a pity I didn't say that. Not content with being highly offensive you can't follow the simple point that the z.e. brought into being by Zionists and it is run in the interests of Zionists, while being supported by xian Zionists for their own peculiar aims. The z.e. is only a state for jews on the z.e.'s terms, what UK jews think of the z.e. is nothing to do with the point I was making.


----------



## tim (Apr 30, 2016)

sleaterkinney said:


> He made the tube run on time.



And he's very fond of animals







A trait common to many of our great leaders


----------



## Cid (Apr 30, 2016)

tim said:


> And he's very fond of animals
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What is that? 

e2a: ah, newt of course.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 30, 2016)

I presume that CCHQ have spent some time in the run-up to this grand reveal getting their people to check their own timelines and removing any chance of whataboutery?


----------



## Buckaroo (Apr 30, 2016)

Cid said:


> What is that?
> 
> e2a: ah, newt of course.



It's a Kinnock.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 30, 2016)

brogdale said:


> I presume that CCHQ have spent some time in the run-up to this grand reveal getting their people to check their own timelines and removing any chance of whataboutery?


Gchq?


----------



## brogdale (Apr 30, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Gchq?


----------



## Cid (Apr 30, 2016)

Buckaroo said:


> It's a Kinnock.



The greater creastless Kinnock no less.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 30, 2016)

emanymton said:


> I don't think that comment was about you.



It wasn't. It was about you.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 30, 2016)

Cid said:


> The greater creastless Kinnock no less.


prone to falling over


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 30, 2016)

bimble said:


> Thanks for that, excellent piece of goysplaining. I am well aware of the role of end of times christian loons in supporting the return of jews to the holy land etc. You'll have to spread the word (about how Israel has nothing to do with them really) to the 93% of British Jews who say that it is a significant part of their jewish identity in some way.



I'm ever-so-slightly suspicious of the validity of a pair of surveys for which the article's author, while offering links to everything else, offers no links to the survey data - ie who comprised the samples, how large the samples were, etc.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 30, 2016)

bimble said:


> Nice. You seriously argue that the only reason it exists is because of the agitation of end of times lunatics? Fuck you too sir, whatever your ethnic background.



You're doing that thing again of responding in an offended manner, when you haven't bothered to properly read what you're responding to.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 30, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> You're doing that thing again of responding in an offended manner, when you haven't bothered to properly read what you're responding to.


It's really rather tiresome tbh, she reminds me of no one more than diamond.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 30, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> What a pity I didn't say that. Not content with being highly offensive you can't follow the simple point that the z.e. brought into being by Zionists and it is run in the interests of Zionists, while being supported by xian Zionists for their own peculiar aims. The z.e. is only a state for jews on the z.e.'s terms, what UK jews think of the z.e. is nothing to do with the point I was making.



That same entity was happy to expropriate compensation payments from West German companies for historical ills to Jews by then residing in Israel, leaving a group of Israeli Jews they had utter contempt for - the elevation of the holocaust to its current status being a '70s-onward phenomenon - merely for surviving, in penury.
Absolutely the state of Israel is about being there only on their own terms, and those terms are brutal toward anyone, including Jews, who oppose them.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 30, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> It's really rather tiresome tbh, she reminds me of no one more than diamond.



She's brighter than diamond.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 30, 2016)

tim said:


> And he's very fond of animals
> 
> 
> A trait common to many of our great leaders



Chimp is blatantly doing a Captain Fred Scuttle homage there.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 30, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> She's brighter than diamond.


Yeh. But who isn't? It's her inability to understand simple points and disproportionate reactions to innocuous posts which echo diamond's similar behaviour.


----------



## two sheds (Apr 30, 2016)

Diamond said:


> A Labour MP has just come out with something antisemitic.
> 
> Why do you think the views of the right are relevant to that?



Diamond: Left wingers are anti-semitic

Someone with more than half a brain: Well no, *some* left wingers are anti-semitic, as are some right wingers. 

Diamond: WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT RIGHT WINGERS HERE


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 30, 2016)

two sheds said:


> Diamond: Left wingers are anti-semitic
> 
> Someone with more than half a brain: Well no, *some* left wingers are anti-semitic, as are some right wingers.
> 
> Diamond: WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT RIGHT WINGERS HERE


Don't confuse him.


----------



## belboid (Apr 30, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> It's really rather tiresome tbh, she reminds me of no one more than diamond.


She reminds me of this lass I used to live with. She'd ask the  most obvious questions, the answer to which she clearly knew, just to see how you'd answer, and if you'd get anything wrong. She had no real interest in the response, it was all just some weird disingenuous bullshit. Which just happens to back up reactionary nonsense from other posters. But that's just a coincidence, I'm sure.


----------



## DownwardDog (Apr 30, 2016)

brogdale said:


> The genius of this carefully deployed attack, orchestrated by Crosby, is that it simultaneously damages the Corbyn brand and electoral chances in the forthcoming elections, whilst giving him an excuse for the debacle and stay in place.



There's a certain amount of Crosby related apophenia here. Not everything that Jezb ut-Tahrir fucks up is a plot orchestrated by Sir Lynton.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 30, 2016)

DownwardDog said:


> There's a certain amount of Crosby related apophenia here. Not everything that Jezb ut-Tahrir fucks up is a plot orchestrated by Sir Lynton.



I have to say that on this I agree, absolutely anyone can make a fake facebook account and trawl through post histories till they find something juicy. It ain't rocket surgery.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 30, 2016)

The fact that Labour didn't realise that of course is astonishing


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 30, 2016)

J Ed said:


> The fact that Labour didn't realise that of course is astonishing


Whatever happened to their rapid rebuttal unit?


----------



## gosub (Apr 30, 2016)

J Ed said:


> I have to say that on this I agree, absolutely anyone can make a fake facebook account and trawl through post histories till they find something juicy. It ain't rocket surgery.



Do you work on the railways?


----------



## iROBOT (Apr 30, 2016)

Sad to see "Godwins Law" spill out into the real world.....
*Godwin's law*
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jump to: navigation, search



Mike Godwin (2010)
*Godwin's law* (or *Godwin's rule of Nazi analogies*)[1][2] is an Internet adage asserting that "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1"[2][3]—that is, if an online discussion (regardless of topic or scope) goes on long enough, sooner or later someone will compare someone or something to Hitler or Nazism. The first utterance of such comparison is called the *Godwin point* of the discussion.

Promulgated by American attorney and author Mike Godwin in 1990,[2] Godwin's law originally referred specifically to Usenet newsgroup discussions.[4] It is now applied to any threaded online discussion, such as Internet forums, chat rooms, and comment threads, as well as to speeches, articles, and other rhetoric[5][6] where reductio ad Hitlerum occurs.

In 2012, "Godwin's law" became an entry in the third edition of the _Oxford English Dictionary_.[7]


----------



## gosub (Apr 30, 2016)

iROBOT said:


> Sad to see "Godwins Law" spill out into the real world.....
> *Godwin's law*
> From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> ...



I read that earlier.  I thought it included first to Godwin loses the argument.


----------



## A380 (Apr 30, 2016)

iROBOT said:


> Sad to see "Godwins Law" spill out into the real world.....
> *Godwin's law*
> From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> ...


Godwin? worse than Hitler.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 30, 2016)

So, what is the Israeli PM supposed to have said 48 hours previously that was similar to livingstone's utterance?  Google seems unwilling to tell me.


----------



## Cid (Apr 30, 2016)

Wilf said:


> So, what is the Israeli PM supposed to have said 48 hours previously that was similar to livingstone's utterance?  Google seems unwilling to tell me.



This? Although it seems to be last year. Maybe Livingstone fell foul of article drift.


----------



## iROBOT (Apr 30, 2016)

gosub said:


> I read that earlier.  I thought it included first to Godwin loses the argument.


That may be so on the Net, in the real world all gloves are off..


----------



## tim (Apr 30, 2016)

Well, he did say this last year:

In a speech before the World Zionist Congress in Jerusalem, Netanyahu described a meeting between Husseini and Hitler in November, 1941: "Hitler didn't want to exterminate the Jews at the time, he wanted to expel the Jew. And Haj Amin al-Husseini went to Hitler and said, 'If you expel them, they'll all come here (to Palestine).' According to Netanyahu, Hitler then asked: "What should I do with them?" and the mufti replied: "Burn them."
read more: Netanyahu: Hitler didn't want to exterminate the Jews - Israel News


Suggesting that the Mufti and the Palestinians were really responsible for the Holocaust rather than poor old Adolf.

Perhaps it's the Palestinians that Ken's secretly got a grudge against


----------



## iROBOT (Apr 30, 2016)

tim said:


> Well, he did say this last year:
> 
> In a speech before the World Zionist Congress in Jerusalem, Netanyahu described a meeting between Husseini and Hitler in November, 1941: "Hitler didn't want to exterminate the Jews at the time, he wanted to expel the Jew. And Haj Amin al-Husseini went to Hitler and said, 'If you expel them, they'll all come here (to Palestine).' According to Netanyahu, Hitler then asked: "What should I do with them?" and the mufti replied: "Burn them."
> read more: Netanyahu: Hitler didn't want to exterminate the Jews - Israel News
> ...


Is this historically verifiable? (you know with primary documents and all that) or is it just hearsay?


----------



## agricola (Apr 30, 2016)

iROBOT said:


> Is this historically verifiable? (you know with primary documents and all that) or is it just hearsay?



He met him, but the idea that Husseini talked him into genocide is nonsense.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 30, 2016)

iROBOT said:


> Is this historically verifiable? (you know with primary documents and all that) or is it just hearsay?


There is a link to nefandous Netanyahu in the post you quote


----------



## gosub (Apr 30, 2016)

agricola said:


> He met him, but the idea that Husseini talked him into genocide is nonsense.


He certainly helped stop the issuing of exit visas.  But night of the long knives showed Hitler didn't need talking into killing people, that and the war thingy he started.


----------



## Cid (Apr 30, 2016)

It is important to remember that, whatever accusations of antisemitism are being levelled, whether they are of substance or not, Netnayahu is still a massive shit. And this is not an unusual thing to be in the Knesset.


----------



## tim (Apr 30, 2016)

iROBOT said:


> Is this historically verifiable? (you know with primary documents and all that) or is it just hearsay?



Is this an ironic comment? If not, do you want proof that the Mufti was the eminence grise behind the Holocaust or proof that Bibi claimed that he was

Assuming you mean the Mufti, they're crap. If you are looking for primary documents about Netanyahu, here's the video.

[]www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ju1w-iDR0o


----------



## JuanTwoThree (Apr 30, 2016)

> Historian Ian Kershaw points out that several passages in _Mein Kampf_ are undeniably of a genocidal nature. Hitler wrote "the nationalization of our masses will succeed only when, aside from all the positive struggle for the soul of our people, their international poisoners are exterminated" and in another passage he suggested that "If at the beginning of the war and during the war twelve or fifteen thousand of these Hebrew corrupters of the nation had been subjected to poison gas, such as had to be endured in the field by hundreds of thousands of our very best German workers of all classes and professions, then the sacrifice of millions at the front would not have been in vain."



With all the usual caveats, given that this is taken from Wikipedia and I haven't read Mein Kampf myself, it does rather seem that by 1925 the idea of killing a good many Jews had already occurred to AH.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 30, 2016)

DownwardDog said:


> There's a certain amount of Crosby related apophenia here. Not everything that Jezb ut-Tahrir fucks up is a plot orchestrated by Sir Lynton.


You may be right.
But once they knew they had Shah there was clearly a deal of preparation and timing strategy to work through; the vermin on twitter have been laying the ground-work for this reveal for a considerable time.


----------



## iROBOT (Apr 30, 2016)

tim said:


> Is this an ironic comment? If not, do you want proof that the Mufti was the eminence grise behind the Holocaust or proof that Bibi claimed that he was
> 
> Assuming you mean the Mufti, they're crap. If you are looking for primary documents about Netanyahu, here's the video.
> 
> []www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ju1w-iDR0o


I was asking about the Mufti and whether N had any proof, I've seen the vid thanks. Just thought you'd know. Obviously not. My bad.


----------



## gosub (Apr 30, 2016)

iROBOT said:


> Is this historically verifiable? (you know with primary documents and all that) or is it just hearsay?



No, a lot of effort went into building a case against him over a variety of things, if they'd have had the documents it would have been in there.  (they had a case -never got heard for geopolitical reasons)


----------



## iROBOT (Apr 30, 2016)

gosub said:


> No, a lot of effort went into building a case against him over a variety of things, if they'd have had the documents it would have been in there.  (they had a case -never got heard for geopolitical reasons)


Interesting stuff. I'm a bit of a History buff and have (after just a little googling) came across this. (Bernard Lewis is a History Professor at Princeton Uni speciality in Islam and its interactions with the West)....Havent gone as far as seeing the peer reviews of Bernards work, but Princeton is usually the bedrock of academic vigour (usually). I'll just put it out there and others can decide for themselves.

*Bernard Lewis says that, in addition to the old goal of Arabia being free of the presence of Jews, the Mufti “aimed at much vaster purposes, conceived not so much in pan-Arab as in pan-Islamic terms, for a Holy War of Islam in alliance with Germany against World Jewry, to accomplish the Final Solution of the Jewish problem everywhere.” According to SS-Hauptsturmführer Dieter Wisliceny who knew the Mufti well,

The Mufti was one of the initiators of the systematic extermination of European Jewry and had been a collaborator and advisor of Eichmann and Himmler in execution of this plan... He was one of Eichmann's best friends and had constantly incited him to accelerate the extermination measures. I heard him say, accompanied by Eichmann, he had visited incognito the gas chamber of Auschwitz . . . The Mufti had repeatedly suggested to the various authorities with whom he was maintaining contact, above all to Hitler, Ribbentrop, and Himmler, the extermination of European Jewry. He considered this as a comfortable solution of the Palestinian problem.

Perhaps the “Nazis needed no persuasion or instigation,” as el-Husseini was later to claim, but the foremost Arab spiritual leader of his time did all he could to ensure that the Germans did not waver in their resolve. He went out of his way to prevent any Jews to be allowed to leave Hungary, Romania, and Bulgaria, which were initially willing to let them go: “The Mufti was making protests everywhere—in the Office of the (Foreign) Minister, in the antechamber of the Secretary of State, and in other departments, such as Home Office, Press, Radio, and in the SS headquarters.” In the end, Eichmann said, “We have promised him that no European Jew would enter Palestine any more.” In 1943, he wrote to the Hungarian foreign minister:

If there are reasons which make their removal necessary, it would be indispensable and infinitively preferable to send them to other countries where they would find themselves under active control, for example, in Poland, in order to protect oneself from their menace and avoid the consequent damage.
Netanyahu, the Mufti and Hitler | Chronicles Magazine
*
I then went to Lewis's wiki page to see if he was an "Islamaphobe" and found this....(pretty much not imo).

Views on Islam[edit]
Lewis presents some of his conclusions about Islamic culture, Shari'a law, jihad, and the modern day phenomenon of terrorism in his text, _Islam: The Religion and the People_.[40] He writes of jihad as a distinct "religious obligation", but suggests that "it is a pity" that people engaging in terrorist activities are not more aware of their own religion:

*Muslim fighters are commanded not to kill women, children, or the aged unless they attack first; not to torture or otherwise ill-treat prisoners; to give fair warning of the opening of hostilities or their resumption after a truce; and to honor agreements. ... At no time did the classical jurists offer any approval or legitimacy to what we nowadays call terrorism. Nor indeed is there any evidence of the use of terrorism as it is practiced nowadays."[41]*

In Lewis' view, the "by now widespread terrorism practice of suicide bombing is a development of the 20th century" with "no antecedents in Islamic history, and no justification in terms of Islamic theology, law, or tradition."[42] He further comments that "the fanatical warrior offering his victims the choice of the Koran or the sword is not only untrue, it is impossible" and that "generally speaking, Muslim tolerance of unbelievers was far better than anything available in Christendom, until the rise of secularism in the 17th century."[43]


----------



## gosub (Apr 30, 2016)

iROBOT said:


> Interesting stuff. I'm a bit of a History buff and have (after just a little googling) came across this. (Bernard Lewis is a History Professor at Princeton Uni speciality in Islam and its interactions with the West)....Havent gone as far as seeing the peer reviews of Bernards work, but Princeton is usually the bedrock of academic vigour (usually). I'll just put it out there and others can decide for themselves.
> 
> *Bernard Lewis says that, in addition to the old goal of Arabia being free of the presence of Jews, the Mufti “aimed at much vaster purposes, conceived not so much in pan-Arab as in pan-Islamic terms, for a Holy War of Islam in alliance with Germany against World Jewry, to accomplish the Final Solution of the Jewish problem everywhere.” According to SS-Hauptsturmführer Dieter Wisliceny who knew the Mufti well,
> 
> ...


In Netanyahu’s mufti-Holocaust allegation, echoes of his father’s maverick approach to history


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 30, 2016)

iROBOT said:


> Interesting stuff. I'm a bit of a History buff and have (after just a little googling) came across this. (Bernard Lewis is a History Professor at Princeton Uni speciality in Islam and its interactions with the West)....Havent gone as far as seeing the peer reviews of Bernards work, but Princeton is usually the bedrock of academic vigour (usually). I'll just put it out there and others can decide for themselves.
> 
> *Bernard Lewis says that, in addition to the old goal of Arabia being free of the presence of Jews, the Mufti “aimed at much vaster purposes, conceived not so much in pan-Arab as in pan-Islamic terms, for a Holy War of Islam in alliance with Germany against World Jewry, to accomplish the Final Solution of the Jewish problem everywhere.” According to SS-Hauptsturmführer Dieter Wisliceny who knew the Mufti well,
> 
> ...


Seems to have forgotten the Golden age of sicily under the normans


----------



## tim (Apr 30, 2016)

What have I started!! I just hope iRobot never gets to find out about the theories of David Irving


----------



## iROBOT (Apr 30, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Seems to have forgotten the Golden age of sicily under the normans


I have yet to verify Bernard Lewis work (and this is a brief article and as such must miss out a lot of detail). Like I said he dont come across as an "Islamaphobe"


----------



## iROBOT (Apr 30, 2016)

tim said:


> What have I started!! I just hope iRobot never getd to find out about the theories of David Irving


Classic repost.

Bravo.


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 30, 2016)

iROBOT said:


> I have yet to verify Bernard Lewis work (and this is a brief article and as such must miss out a lot of detail). Like I said he dont come across as an "Islamaphobe"


I read some of his stuff years ago. I got the impression he was a bog-standard Foreign & Colonial Office Orientalist - "Johnny Arab is a fine fellow, in his proper place of course, old chap".

And while I initially thought that he might be one of those people who you could learn something from, even as you disagreed with his paradigm, I came across him saying something about the Armenian genocide which made me think otherwise (irritatingly, I can't remember what it was now).


----------



## iROBOT (Apr 30, 2016)

Idris2002 said:


> I read some of his stuff years ago. I got the impression he was a bog-standard Foreign & Colonial Office Orientalist - "Johnny Arab is a fine fellow, in his proper place of course, old chap".
> 
> And while I initially thought that he might be one of those people who you could learn something from, even as you disagreed with his paradigm, I came across him saying something about the Armenian genocide which made me think otherwise (irritatingly, I can't remember what it was now).


I thought Ed Said has seen off all the Orientalists in the West? (that was a joke btw). Thanks for the reply, I'll bare that in mind when I investigate him.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 30, 2016)

Bernard Lewis is a joke


----------



## J Ed (Apr 30, 2016)

Bernard Lewis: In the service of empire


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 30, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Bernard Lewis is a joke


Bit of a David Starkey?


----------



## J Ed (Apr 30, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> Bit of a David Starkey?



Worse.

Funny story about Starkey, I was chatting with someone who works on a site of interest for Tudor history in Sheffield and someone tipped him off that Starkey was going to visit the place so he closed it for the day.


----------



## iROBOT (Apr 30, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Bernard Lewis is a joke



Interesting, so he coined the term "Clash of Civilisations" All good stuff and worth knowing, but the veracity of his research on the Mufti and Hitler/Nazi regime is the main point of research here. On that I'm still in the dark until I've seen more proof one way or the other (can't go too deep now as I'm at work)


----------



## tim (Apr 30, 2016)

It wasn't only the Mufti who was keeen to butter up Adolf. Avarham Stern, leader of LEHI (the Stern Gang) wanted to do a deal with the Nazis to further their struggle against the British Empire:


_Stern insisted that the struggle against the British remain independent of any political linkage, even to Jabotinsky's Revisionist party. He also vehemently opposed tempering the resistance in any way, and thus, in August, 1940, when the Irgun decided to suspend their attacks on the British during World War II, Stern formed a radical splinter opposition group, known as Lehi, an acronym for “Lohamei Herut Yisrael.” He maintained that, even in the face of the Nazi threat, it was the British who posed the major threat to the Jews; doubting the Allies could win the war, he even advocated an alliance with Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy, believing these ties would assist the nationalist effort in Eretz Yisrael._

Taken fromAvraham Stern | Jewish Virtual Library

Stern was killed in 1942 but his group carried on the struggle against the British  control of Palestine all through the war.

Yitzhak Shamir, who was one of the leaders of the group after Stern's death (and in 1942, the organiser of the assasination of Lord Moyne - the minister responsible for British colonies in the Middle East)  went on to be leader of Likud and seventh Prime Minister of Israel


----------



## Cid (Apr 30, 2016)

iROBOT said:


> Interesting, so he coined the term "Clash of Civilisations" All good stuff and worth knowing, but the veracity of his research on the Mufti and Hitler/Nazi regime is the main point of research here. On that I'm still in the dark until I've seen more proof one way or the other (can't go too deep now as I'm at work)



Stop making it sound as if you'e about to peer-review the bloke when you're going to do a bit of google-trawling.


----------



## Coolfonz (Apr 30, 2016)

Diamond said:


> A Labour MP has just come out with something antisemitic.
> 
> Why do you think the views of the right are relevant to that?


Because right wing travellers like you are exploiting anti-semitism for political gain. Which in itself is what? 

Anti-semitism and various prejudices, bigotry and so on go on all the time. When you are completely silent. Never seen you personally post about racism, anti-semitism, bigotry, of any sort. 

Then you use this idiotic series of statements by washed up Labour politicians to score points. You use anti-semitism as a political tool. Really cheap and nasty. The Labour party are such scumbags, they really are...


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 30, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> Because right wing travellers like you are exploiting anti-semitism for political gain. Which in itself is what?
> 
> Anti-semitism and various prejudices, bigotry and so on go on all the time. When you are completely silent. Never seen you personally post about racism, anti-semitism, bigotry, of any sort.
> 
> Then you use this idiotic series of statements by washed up Labour politicians to score points. You use anti-semitism as a political tool. Really cheap and nasty. The Labour party are such scumbags, they really are...


To be fair he has a nasty line in Islamaphobia too while making out it's fair comment cos he once stepped out with a Muslim girl


----------



## Coolfonz (Apr 30, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> To be fair he has a nasty line in Islamaphobia too while making out it's fair comment cos he once stepped out with a Muslim girl


Bigots calling bigots bigots.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 30, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> It's definition is not an issue.....
> 
> Zionism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


I think it's disingenuous to pretend there aren't problems with the term and what it means to different people. You boil it down to a simple 'Jewish people are entitled to Palestine Yes/No', but it is surely more complex than that, given the conditions that produced Zionism in the first place. The roots of Zionism are less to do with biblical fundamentalism and more to do with antisemitism in Europe leading many to believe that they had to establish a homeland elsewhere, their fears being more than vindicated in the end by the actions of the Nazis. 

While I think it is a disgrace the way Israeli leaders invoke the Holocaust to deflect criticism of their actions, it is surely still correct to invoke it when speaking of the formation of the state of Israel. The Zionists may have far less of a point now about the state of antisemitism in Europe, but they most certainly had a point both in the late 19th century when the movement began and  in the late 1940s when Israel was created. It is possible to acknowledge this while still placing yourself full-square behind the Palestinians and their fight for justice. There is a range of possible opinion about how to move forwards from now, but none of the realistic ones involves the forced relocation of Jewish settlers and their descendants from what is now the state of Israel. Accepting that they will be part of the future in the area is surely the only sensible first step for anyone advocating the Palestinian cause.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 30, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I think it's disingenuous to pretend there aren't problems with the term and what it means to different people. You boil it down to a simple 'Jewish people are entitled to Palestine Yes/No', but it is surely more complex than that, given the conditions that produced Zionism in the first place. The roots of Zionism are less to do with biblical fundamentalism and more to do with antisemitism in Europe leading many to believe that they had to establish a homeland elsewhere, their fears being more than vindicated in the end by the actions of the Nazis.
> 
> While I think it is a disgrace the way Israeli leaders invoke the Holocaust to deflect criticism of their actions, it is surely still correct to invoke it when speaking of the formation of the state of Israel. The Zionists may have far less of a point now about the state of antisemitism in Europe, but they most certainly had a point both in the late 19th century when the movement began and  in the late 1940s when Israel was created. It is possible to acknowledge this while still placing yourself full-square behind the Palestinians and their fight for justice. There is a range of possible opinion about how to move forwards from now, but none of the realistic ones involves the forced relocation of Jewish settlers and their descendants from what is now the state of Israel. Accepting that they will be part of the future in the area is surely the only sensible first step for anyone advocating the Palestinian cause.


What about the forced relocation of Jewish settlers & their descendants from the west bank?


----------



## kenny g (Apr 30, 2016)

JuanTwoThree said:


> With all the usual caveats, given that this is taken from Wikipedia and I haven't read Mein Kampf myself, it does rather seem that by 1925 the idea of killing a good many Jews had already occurred to AH.





Full(er) quote from AH that puts it in a bit more context:-



> If at the beginning of the War and during the War twelve or fifteen thousand of these Hebrew corrupters of the people had been held under poison gas, as happened to hundreds of thousands of our very best German workers in the field, th sacrifice of millions at the front would not have been in vain. On the contrary: twelve thousand scoundrels eliminated in time might have saved the lives of a million real Germans, valuable for the future. But it just happened to be in the line of bourgeois 'statesmanship' to subject millions to a bloody end on the battlefield without batting an eyelash, but to regard ten or twelve thousand traitors, profiteers, usurers, and swindlers as a sacred national treasure and openly proclaim their inviolability. We never know which is greater in this bourgeois world, the imbecility, weakness, and cowardice, or their deep-dyed corruption. It is truly a class doomed by Fate, but unfortunately, however, it is dragging a whole nation with it into the abyss.


 Mein Kampf: The Right of Emergency Defense


----------



## iROBOT (Apr 30, 2016)

Cid said:


> Stop making it sound as if you'e about to peer-review the bloke when you're going to do a bit of google-trawling.


LOL, I said I was GOING TO READ some peer reviews, I can't peer review a Historian, my degree is in Photography, not much use here.

Oh and I work for an Educational Institution and have full access to the Janet Server (and the rest).

Been finding some interesting stuff, quite contradictory, Hitler helping the Zionists populate Israel against the Britsh, the Mufti having real influence in Germany but practically unknown in the Muslim world (then and now) Hitlers fondness for Islam, the Vatican culpability in the Holocaust (more than the Mufti, truth be told) But far to much to do it justice here so will duck out of this conversation


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 30, 2016)

tim said:


> Is this an ironic comment? If not, do you want proof that the Mufti was the eminence grise behind the Holocaust or proof that Bibi claimed that he was
> 
> Assuming you mean the Mufti, they're crap. If you are looking for primary documents about Netanyahu, here's the video.
> 
> []www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ju1w-iDR0o



A lot of what's said about al-Husseini is based on his stay in Germany, of which not many records remain, so taking any of it at face value would be a little bit like doing the same with the Hitler Diaries.
There's no doubt the man was a rabid Judaeophobe, but the idea of "burning them" would violate the religion he purported to represent.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 30, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> A lot of what's said about al-Husseini is based on his stay in Germany, of which not many records remain, so taking any of it at face value would be a little bit like doing the same with the Hitler Diaries.
> There's no doubt the man was a rabid Judaeophobe, but the idea of "burning them" would violate the religion he purported to represent.


I've read considerable chunks of this in Foyles...quite impressed.
Islam and Nazi Germany's War: Amazon.co.uk: David Motadel: 9780674724600: Books


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 30, 2016)

iROBOT said:


> I have yet to verify Bernard Lewis work (and this is a brief article and as such must miss out a lot of detail). Like I said he dont come across as an "Islamaphobe"



Bernard Lewis pretty much writes for two different audiences. His academic stuff is written in a much more circumspect manner than his "pop history" stuff, which tends to be spun to a philo-Semitic and (later) a pro-Zionist audience. He dwells on atrocities under the various Muslim kingdoms, often excluding the achievements of the same kingdoms.


----------



## iROBOT (Apr 30, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Bernard Lewis pretty much writes for two different audiences. His academic stuff is written in a much more circumspect manner than his "pop history" stuff, which tends to be spun to a philo-Semitic and (later) a pro-Zionist audience. He dwells on atrocities under the various Muslim kingdoms, often excluding the achievements of the same kingdoms.


I knew you'd know! 

Seems he's quit influential, have not found any links (yet) but Princeton is renowned for its Christian Seminaries, do you know of any links to him and the Christian Right?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 30, 2016)

brogdale said:


> I've read considerable chunks of this in Foyles...quite impressed.
> Islam and Nazi Germany's War: Amazon.co.uk: David Motadel: 9780674724600: Books



Interesting. I've put that on my "to read" list.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 30, 2016)

iROBOT said:


> I knew you'd know!
> 
> Seems he's quit influential, have not found any links (yet) but Princeton is renowned for its Christian Seminaries, do you know of any links to him and the Christian Right?



Not beyond his books having been popular with Dubya.


----------



## treelover (Apr 30, 2016)

> * I saw the darkness of antisemitism, but I never thought it would get this dark *
> 
> They must first pay the political price of confronting supporters from immigrant communities, which Labour MPs from all wings of the party have failed to do for decades. It may be high. While Ken Livingstone was forcing startled historians to explain that Adolf Hitler was not a Zionist, I was in Naz Shah’s Bradford. A politician who wants to win there cannot afford to be reasonable, I discovered. He or she cannot deplore the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and say that the Israelis and Palestinians should have their own states. They have to engage in extremist rhetoric of the “sweep all the Jews out” variety or risk their opponents denouncing them as “Zionists”.
> 
> ...





Nick Cohen joins the affray, its pretty incendiary


----------



## treelover (Apr 30, 2016)

> Challenging prejudices on the left wing is going to be all the more difficult because, incredibly, the British left in the second decade of the 21st century is led by men steeped in the worst traditions of the 20th. When historians had to explain last week that if Montgomery had not defeated Rommel at El Alamein in Egypt then the German armies would have killed every Jew they could find in Palestine, they were dealing with the conspiracy theory that Hitler was a Zionist, developed by a half-educated American Trotskyist called Lenni Brenner in the 1980s.


----------



## Cloo (Apr 30, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> While I think it is a disgrace the way Israeli leaders invoke the Holocaust to deflect criticism of their actions, it is surely still correct to invoke it when speaking of the formation of the state of Israel. The Zionists may have far less of a point now about the state of antisemitism in Europe, but they most certainly had a point both in the late 19th century when the movement began and  in the late 1940s when Israel was created. It is possible to acknowledge this while still placing yourself full-square behind the Palestinians and their fight for justice. There is a range of possible opinion about how to move forwards from now, but none of the realistic ones involves the forced relocation of Jewish settlers and their descendants from what is now the state of Israel. Accepting that they will be part of the future in the area is surely the only sensible first step for anyone advocating the Palestinian cause.



William L Hitchcock's great book 'Liberation: The bitter road to freedom' was a real eye opener on the foundation of Israel- it seems it was as much a logistical solution as one as one of conscience; there were countless thousands of displaced Jews who couldn't, or understandably wouldn't, return home. I totally agree that the argument about Israel's right to be there is immaterial now - it _is _there, it's not going away and the question is how we deal with that and find a just solution for the Palestinian people that gives them land and freedom.


----------



## treelover (Apr 30, 2016)

Btw, i just spoke to my older friend, she is jewish but now a christian, she was hurt by Livingstone and Shahs comments, and in the modern idiom of equal opportunities, etc, used all the time by the left, it is the victim who defines what hurts and what doesn't. She also wondered why do the left focus on israel so much, when there are other dismal regimes in the region, she is not a Zionist or even talks much about Israel, but she is concerned the ways things are going.


----------



## treelover (Apr 30, 2016)

Cloo said:


> William L Hitchcock's great book 'Liberation: The bitter road to freedom' was a real eye opener on the foundation of Israel- it seems it was as much a logistical solution as one as one of conscience; there were countless thousands of displaced Jews who couldn't, or understandably wouldn't, return home. I totally agree that the argument about Israel's right to be there is immaterial now - it _is _there, it's not going away and the question is how we deal with that and find a just solution for the Palestinian people that gives them land and freedom.




There is a chapter in the excellent 'Savage Continent'  by Keith Lowe about this, and more in 'The Long Road Home' by Ben Shepard.UNRRA had a major involvement in it all. Even in the early 50's there were still one million DP's, many many were Jewish.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 30, 2016)

treelover said:


> Btw, i just spoke to my older friend, she is jewish but now a christian, she was hurt by Livingstone and Shahs comments, and in the modern idiom of equal opportunities, etc, used all the time by the left, it is the victim who defines what hurts and what doesn't. She also wondered why do the left focus on israel so much, when there are other dismal regimes in the region, she is not a Zionist or even talks much about Israel, but she is concerned the ways things are going.


Victim? Victim of what?


----------



## Cloo (Apr 30, 2016)

treelover said:


> Btw, i just spoke to my older friend, she is jewish but now a christian, she was hurt by Livingstone and Shahs comments, and in the modern idiom of equal opportunities, etc, used all the time by the left, it is the victim who defines what hurts and what doesn't. She also wondered why do the left focus on israel so much, when there are other dismal regimes in the region, she is not a Zionist or even talks much about Israel, but she is concerned the ways things are going.


I am disgusted by Israel's behaviour, but I often feel alienated by the wider movement that opposes it. For example, protests may feature groups that oppose the existence at all of Israel and, having had a long discussion with my other half this morning about it, I've come to the conclusion that I find the language used about Israel very offensive a lot of the time, even if I agree with the issues that are being protested/discussed. I do believe that a lot of Israel's behaviour is very like the Nazis' (perhaps above all the in the dehumanising beaurocracy and daily obstruction and humiliation of Palestinians going about their business) but I think it is generally deeply offensive to Jews to refer to a Jewish country 'Nazi' as I have seen some people do. I don't feel the same about 'apartheid state' as that's not something I find offensive to Jews. 

The fact is, no one is going to 'shame' Israel into stopping what it does by comparing them to the Nazis, they will continue saying, until the cows come home that they are defending themselves against Palestinian aggression, whereas the Jews had done nothing to the Germans. But it is a language that will offend and alienate Jews from joining in wider movements in support of Palestine.

Pickman's model - I think what treelover means is that if someone feels their identity targeted or offended by something, people outside that identity don't get to tell them that they shouldn't be offended by it.


----------



## DrRingDing (Apr 30, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I think it's disingenuous to pretend there aren't problems with the term and what it means to different people. You boil it down to a simple 'Jewish people are entitled to Palestine Yes/No', but it is surely more complex than that, given the conditions that produced Zionism in the first place.



The motivations are irrelevant. The fact remains, if you believe Jewish people regardless of their nationality and background are entitled to Palestine you are a Zionist. Don't try and confuse the issue. It's simple.


----------



## DrRingDing (Apr 30, 2016)

Cloo said:


> I do believe that a lot of Israel's behaviour is very like the Nazis' (perhaps above all the in the dehumanising beaurocracy and daily obstruction and humiliation of Palestinians going about their business) but I think it is generally deeply offensive to Jews to refer to a Jewish country 'Nazi' as I have seen some people do. I don't feel the same about 'apartheid state' as that's not something I find offensive to Jews.



The actions of the Nazis was on a different scale to the actions of the state of Israel and it really doesn't help the situation throwing the term Nazi about. No serious activist I know uses that comparison, in fact, groups I've been involved with actively discourage it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 30, 2016)

Cloo said:


> I am disgusted by Israel's behaviour, but I often feel alienated by the wider movement that opposes it. For example, protests may feature groups that oppose the existence at all of Israel and, having had a long discussion with my other half this morning about it, I've come to the conclusion that I find the language used about Israel very offensive a lot of the time, even if I agree with the issues that are being protested/discussed. I do believe that a lot of Israel's behaviour is very like the Nazis' (perhaps above all the in the dehumanising beaurocracy and daily obstruction and humiliation of Palestinians going about their business) but I think it is generally deeply offensive to Jews to refer to a Jewish country 'Nazi' as I have seen some people do. I don't feel the same about 'apartheid state' as that's not something I find offensive to Jews.
> 
> The fact is, no one is going to 'shame' Israel into stopping what it does by comparing them to the Nazis, they will continue saying, until the cows come home that they are defending themselves against Palestinian aggression, whereas the Jews had done nothing to the Germans. But it is a language that will offend and alienate Jews from joining in wider movements in support of Palestine.
> 
> Pickman's model - I think what treelover means is that if someone feels their identity targeted or offended by something, people outside that identity don't get to tell them that they shouldn't be offended by it.


Why do you think apartheid state not offensive to jews?


----------



## DrRingDing (Apr 30, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Why do you think apartheid state not offensive to jews?



Apartheid is obviously not as loaded as making comparisons to the holocaust. There is little denying the state of Israel as being extremely racist, not just to Palestinians.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 30, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> Apartheid is obviously not as loaded as making comparisons to the holocaust. There is little denying the state of Israel as being extremely racist, not just to Palestinians.


The z.e. did of course have close links to apartheid south africa.


----------



## Cloo (Apr 30, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Why do you think apartheid state not offensive to jews?


Not in the same way as Nazi comparisons for me. I just said that I personally find it offensive. I suppose I was trying to make the point, possibly badly, that this is not about refusing to accept criticisms of Israel, but that there is certain language that is particularly offensive to Jews and alienates them, or many of them, from pro Palestinian discussion and protest.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 30, 2016)

Cloo said:


> Not in the same way as Nazi comparisons for me. I just said that I personally find it offensive. I suppose I was trying to make the point, possibly badly, that this is not about refusing to accept criticisms of Israel, but that there is certain language that is particularly offensive to Jews and alienates them, or many of them, from pro Palestinian discussion and protest.


Tbh I think the Nazi comparison facile


----------



## Cid (Apr 30, 2016)

treelover said:


> Btw, i just spoke to my older friend, she is jewish but now a christian, she was hurt by Livingstone and Shahs comments, and in the modern idiom of equal opportunities, etc, used all the time by the left, it is the victim who defines what hurts and what doesn't. She also wondered why do the left focus on israel so much, when there are other dismal regimes in the region, she is not a Zionist or even talks much about Israel, but she is concerned the ways things are going.



Did you answer her questions?


----------



## treelover (Apr 30, 2016)

I think you may have gathered i try not to get involved these days apart from on here, I stick with the problems here.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 30, 2016)

treelover said:


> I think you may have gathered i try not to get involved these days apart from on here, I stick with the problems here.


Don't bring problems, bring solutions


----------



## Diamond (Apr 30, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> Because right wing travellers like you are exploiting anti-semitism for political gain. Which in itself is what?
> 
> Anti-semitism and various prejudices, bigotry and so on go on all the time. When you are completely silent. Never seen you personally post about racism, anti-semitism, bigotry, of any sort.
> 
> Then you use this idiotic series of statements by washed up Labour politicians to score points. You use anti-semitism as a political tool. Really cheap and nasty. The Labour party are such scumbags, they really are...



That is complete bollocks.

I associated with left-wing circles for literally years at university in the early noughties and, while it was not routine, calling someone a Jew because they hadn't paid their way by buying a round was common.

You think that I'm trying to score cheap points now?  There's a good possibility that you can find me posting about all that stuff a decade or so ago if you want to actually do your research.


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## NoBystander (Apr 30, 2016)

I signed up because this



Pickman's model said:


> It's really rather tiresome tbh, she reminds me of no one more than diamond.





Pickman's model said:


> Yeh. But who isn't? It's her inability to understand simple points and disproportionate reactions to innocuous posts which echo diamond's similar behaviour.





belboid said:


> She reminds me of this lass I used to live with. She'd ask the  most obvious questions, the answer to which she clearly knew, just to see how you'd answer, and if you'd get anything wrong. She had no real interest in the response, it was all just some weird disingenuous bullshit. Which just happens to back up reactionary nonsense from other posters. But that's just a coincidence, I'm sure.



is disgusting bullying behaviour and I expected someone to call it out but they didn't.

I don't want to post here and probably won't sign in again so don't bother turning on me. Don't bother accusing bimble of sock puppetry either. It's bullying and i think there are enough good people here to deal with that.


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## Diamond (Apr 30, 2016)

Does antisemitism on the left wing of politics have any bearing whatsoever on the prejudices of the right wing of politics and, if so, why and how?


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## J Ed (Apr 30, 2016)

Diamond said:


> Does antisemitism on the left wing of politics have any bearing whatsoever on the prejudices of the right wing of politics and, if so, why and how?



What do you think?


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## Diamond (Apr 30, 2016)

Look - I'm not saying that there was some fiercely "Mein Kampf" style wing entrenched into Edinburgh University politics in the early noughties.

If anything it was a kind of playful "let's all laugh at that person behaving in a Jewish manner" thing but it still rankled deeply with me, in particular coming from North London.

I brought it up on a number of occasions and should have done a lot more in retrospect, but I was very young and not very confident.

I can guarantee you that most of these boneheads couldn't even point out Haifa or Eilat on a map but that doesn't really excuse their stupidity at all.


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## Diamond (Apr 30, 2016)

J Ed said:


> What do you think?



No


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## J Ed (Apr 30, 2016)

Diamond said:


> No



There is no link or connection at all? They come from entirely separate places? Do you really think that?


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## Diamond (Apr 30, 2016)

J Ed said:


> There is no link or connection at all? They come from entirely separate places? Do you really think that?



I think that trying to link the two is completely fucking bizarre, especially in the context of trying to mitigate one against the other...

It's completely fucking nuts.

Can we not do the same with anti-Islamic sentiment or anti-Brown sentiment and, if so, to what benefit?


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## Diamond (May 1, 2016)

Antisemitism is a thing - across the political spectrum.

As self-defined progressives, the Left should be clearing their stables of it rather than hiding behind mealy-mouthed nonsense.


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## Diamond (May 1, 2016)

OK - so nothing more here then...?

We can all agree that there is a serious issue and it needs to be addressed.

Next steps?


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## Pickman's model (May 1, 2016)

NoBystander said:


> I signed up because this
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you for your contribution. I am surprised you take such exception to those posts when if you seek real bullying - let alone disgusting bullying - there are, I regret, much better examples elsewhere. My contributions quoted were in a context you do not acknowledge following a post where bimble was unbelievably insulting. Strange how you don't pick up on that.


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## Pickman's model (May 1, 2016)

Diamond said:


> No


Where's your why and how?


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## Pickman's model (May 1, 2016)

Diamond said:


> Does antisemitism on the left wing of politics have any bearing whatsoever on the prejudices of the right wing of politics and, if so, why and how?


How did you formulate this question and why do you believe it important, esp in the light you believe it worthy of but a one word answer?


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## Sirena (May 1, 2016)

I saw this on Facebook

Nobody bothered to check who created that “anti-Semitic” image Naz Shah retweeted, did they?


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## bimble (May 1, 2016)

Sirena said:


> I saw this on Facebook
> 
> Nobody bothered to check who created that “anti-Semitic” image Naz Shah retweeted, did they?



Don't be silly. He did not 'create' that. Finkelstein is a paraiah now, amongst the 'hard left', being an advocate of a 2 state solution and an opponent of BDS. His posting of it to his blog will have been not in earnest, ffs, _even more_ 'tongue in cheek' than Shah's.
"“I loathe the disingenuousness—they don’t want Israel [to exist],” he said. “It’s a cult.” He had spent his time in a self-deceptive Maoist cult, he said; he wouldn’t do it again.  “I’m not going to tolerate what I think is silliness, childishness, and a lot of left-wing posturing,” he said."
An Unpopular Man


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## butchersapron (May 1, 2016)

Sirena said:


> I saw this on Facebook
> 
> Nobody bothered to check who created that “anti-Semitic” image Naz Shah retweeted, did they?


I see no definitive proof there that Finklestein created that image - it appears on all sorts of blogs and twitter feeds that same day, none of them attributing it to anyone but themselves. And in he hasn't mentioned it in any of his pronouncements since if he has - which you might expect him to do if he had. And he doesn't seem to run that site anyway - other people do, most entries seem to be from a 'jamie'. I think putting so confident a headline as 'Nobody bothered to check etc' then not doing proper checking yourself is well poor.


----------



## butchersapron (May 1, 2016)

bimble said:


> Don't be silly. He did not 'create' that. Finkelstein is a paraiah now, amongst the 'hard left', being an advocate of a 2 state solution and an opponent of BDS. His posting of it to his blog will have been not in earnest, ffs, _even more_ 'tongue in cheek' than Shah's.
> "“I loathe the disingenuousness—they don’t want Israel [to exist],” he said. “It’s a cult.” He had spent his time in a self-deceptive Maoist cult, he said; he wouldn’t do it again.  “I’m not going to tolerate what I think is silliness, childishness, and a lot of left-wing posturing,” he said."
> An Unpopular Man


He's not a pariah on the hard left at all. He's a much quoted, much used and much respected as a serious historian and writer on the topics around these questions. And your equation of 'pro-palestinian' with hard left continues where your previous such ill-informed comments on 'the left' have left off.


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## bimble (May 1, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> He's not a pariah on the hard left at all. He's a much quoted, much used and much respected as a serious historian and writer on the topics around these questions. And your equation of 'pro-palestinian' with hard left continues where you're previously such ill-informed comments on 'the left' have left off.


ok. It's wrong to equate hard left with pro palestinian. 
I don't want to play here anymore, can't take it really. Just wanted to pipe up and say that it's absurd to suggest Finkelstein created that thing.


----------



## butchersapron (May 1, 2016)

bimble said:


> ok. It's wrong to equate hard left with pro palestinian.
> I don't want to play here anymore, can't take it really. Just wanted to pipe up and say that it's absurd to suggest Finkelstein created that thing.


I think it's highly unlikely too.


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## goldenecitrone (May 1, 2016)

Mark Regev just on Andrew Marr denouncing Livingstone as a perverter of history. Happy May Day, Ken.


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## Pickman's model (May 1, 2016)

bimble said:


> Don't be silly. He did not 'create' that. Finkelstein is a paraiah now, amongst the 'hard left', being an advocate of a 2 state solution and an opponent of BDS. His posting of it to his blog will have been not in earnest, ffs, _even more_ 'tongue in cheek' than Shah's.
> "“I loathe the disingenuousness—they don’t want Israel [to exist],” he said. “It’s a cult.” He had spent his time in a self-deceptive Maoist cult, he said; he wouldn’t do it again.  “I’m not going to tolerate what I think is silliness, childishness, and a lot of left-wing posturing,” he said."
> An Unpopular Man


This would be the same Norman finkelstein whose beyond chutzpah I mentioned above I suppose. Aren't his books published by a left wing publishers? Perhaps they don't know he's a pariah.


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## Pickman's model (May 1, 2016)

bimble said:


> ok. It's wrong to equate hard left with pro palestinian.
> I don't want to play here anymore, can't take it really. Just wanted to pipe up and say that it's absurd to suggest Finkelstein created that thing.


I think you're right solely on the basis he'd not have used a daft font and would have used a better colour scheme. From whence do you believe it emanates?


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## Sirena (May 1, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> I think you're right solely on the basis he'd not have used a daft font and would have used a better colour scheme. From whence do you believe it emanates?


Finkelstein posted it on 4th August 2014 and Naz Shah reposted on 5th August, so it is reasonable to suppose he might have been her source.


----------



## bimble (May 1, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> This would be the same Norman finkelstein whose beyond chutzpah I mentioned above I suppose. Aren't his books published by a left wing publishers? Perhaps they don't know he's a pariah.


In 2012 he started calling the BDS a dishonest cult that wants to eliminate Israel, and which has no hope of success.
He's for a 2 state solution. He says Israel is a State.
That makes him ...a Zionist now, doesn't it?
He no longer gets invited to speak at Palestinian Solidarity events, that's for sure. 

So, I don't know.
Also haven't a clue if Verso will be publishing his forthcoming book,  'How to Solve the Israeli/Palestinian conflict', just because years ago they printed 'the Holocaust Industry'.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 1, 2016)

Sirena said:


> Finkelstein posted it on 4th August 2014 and Naz Shah reposted on 5th August, so it is reasonable to suppose he might have been her source


I thought we'd agreed that. I just don't think he *created* the image


----------



## butchersapron (May 1, 2016)

Sirena said:


> Finkelstein posted it on 4th August 2014 and Naz Shah reposted on 5th August, so it is reasonable to suppose he might have been her source.


Lots of people posted it on the 4th - people less well known than finklestein. It's just as likely he saw it from them and then shah saw it on finklestein. Again, there is very little to suggest that someone like him would make such a  crappy image, and nothing to say that post on a blog was by him - and why hasn't he said he created it in the days since? It looks like some crappy facebook job - and the language used is also equally crude and simplistic 'israelis are loved by most americans'. So there are a host of other reasonable things pointing away from him creating it.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 1, 2016)

bimble said:


> In 2012 he started calling the BDS a dishonest cult that wants to eliminate Israel, and which has no hope of success.
> He's for a 2 state solution. He says Israel is a State.
> That makes him ...a Zionist now, doesn't it?
> Look, if you have 4 minutes - and tell me what do you think of him now.
> ...



Anything you want to say to me should begin with an apology.


----------



## DotCommunist (May 1, 2016)

goldenecitrone said:


> Mark Regev just on Andrew Marr denouncing Livingstone as a perverter of history. Happy May Day, Ken.



regev has been manning the pumps ably trying to get the anti-zionist=anti-semite line accepted. Beeb lapping up every minute of it.


----------



## butchersapron (May 1, 2016)

...and more to the point, she didn't get it from Finklestein - she says in her retweet exactly who she go it from.


----------



## belboid (May 1, 2016)

bimble said:


> ok. It's wrong to equate hard left with pro palestinian.
> I don't want to play here anymore, can't take it really. Just wanted to pipe up and say that it's absurd to suggest Finkelstein created that thing.


You confuse a lot of things, don't you? I'm beginning to suspect that it's quite deliberate


----------



## co-op (May 1, 2016)

bimble said:


> He's for a 2 state solution. He says Israel is a State.
> That makes him ...a Zionist now, doesn't it?



All depends on how you define zionist. There used to be many people (including me) who would not use it to describe a proponent of Israel based on pre-1967 borders - but I am out of date on where the debate is now. Zionism was used in the 80s as an indication of support for a 'Greater Israel' that included the Sinai, the Golan Heights, the West Bank etc etc.

Personally I think that accepting Israel's right to exist is not an endorsement of "zionism" in a meaningful sense of that word. The two-state solution debate is harder to answer, it no longer looks credible to me, Israeli policy has been aimed at slowly throttling it and it's debatable to me whether that policy may now have got to the point where it's worked and made a viable independent Palestine impossible.


----------



## Brainaddict (May 1, 2016)

Wow, people really tying themselves in knots over this, both here and on social media, many because they find it hard to hold two thoughts at once:

Livingstone's comments were well dodgy.
The right wing attack taking advantage of them is also well dodgy.

I know some people have posted articles that manage to make both these points at once, but for others it just seems too complicated. Anyway, here is something on left wing anti-semitism by someone who has thought more about it than you have (Jacob Bard-Rosenberg).

This includes the excellent comment 





> One final thing: it has taken a long and strenuous effort on the part of a lot of anti-Zionist Jews to force people to make the distinction between Jews and Zionists. The purpose of this was not so that anti-Zionists could simply go through a process of replacing all references to “Jews” with references to “Zionists”.



I realised that this is what made me uneasy about the comment on 'Zionist-led media' made by Malia Bouattia. It felt like a replacement that had been made without enough thought.

He also wrote a post for the more theoretically inclined.


----------



## DrRingDing (May 1, 2016)

"Destroy Zionism" last night in Tel Aviv


----------



## Dogsauce (May 1, 2016)

Strange that a couple of weeks ago the dominant media narrative was how the tories were a complete shambles over Europe, schools, cuts to disability benefits etc. Crosby has got serious mileage with this 'dead cat'. It's all they're talking about on the BBC.


----------



## DotCommunist (May 1, 2016)

Dogsauce said:


> Strange that a couple of weeks ago the dominant media narrative was how the tories were a complete shambles over Europe, schools, cuts to disability benefits etc. Crosby has got serious mileage with this 'dead cat'. It's all they're talking about on the BBC.


'this story that won't go away' as a beeb bod said with a straight face this morning. Rolling into the election of the back of the panama papers and the righteous hillsborough verdict, then ken opens gob and its going to be 'leftie antisemites' from now till the 5th. Rolling. 
I see Sadiq has had his say as well. Great stuff.


----------



## J Ed (May 1, 2016)

Sirena said:


> I saw this on Facebook
> 
> Nobody bothered to check who created that “anti-Semitic” image Naz Shah retweeted, did they?



I don't think that serious academics like Finkelstein spend their time making may-mays like that...


----------



## J Ed (May 1, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> 'this story that won't go away' as a beeb bod said with a straight face this morning. Rolling into the election of the back of the panama papers and the righteous hillsborough verdict, then ken opens gob and its going to be 'leftie antisemites' from now till the 5th. Rolling.
> I see Sadiq has had his say as well. Great stuff.



The Naz Shah thing would only have lasted a couple of days, especially since her apology at least seemed genuinely contrite, and may well actually have been really apologetic. Then Livingstone fucked it.


----------



## DrRingDing (May 1, 2016)

Brainaddict said:


> I realised that this is what made me uneasy about the comment on 'Zionist-led media' made by Malia Bouattia.



It would be reasonable to argue that the BBC is the most influential news source in the UK. It also has significant reach around the world.

What is broadcast on BBC News is broadcast is controlled by a zionist.

What Malia was saying was overly simplistic although correct in the above instance and many others. The Israeli propaganda machine is multifaceted and well resourced. This allows them to saturate news desks with their version of events. Whereas the Palestinians don't have a pot to piss in.


----------



## Doctor Carrot (May 1, 2016)

bimble said:


> In 2012 he started calling the BDS a dishonest cult that wants to eliminate Israel, and which has no hope of success.
> He's for a 2 state solution. He says Israel is a State.
> That makes him ...a Zionist now, doesn't it?
> He no longer gets invited to speak at Palestinian Solidarity events, that's for sure.
> ...




He hasn't said they want to eliminate Israel he's said that because they take no position on whether Israel should exist or not it renders them unable to be taken seriously.  This is because they keep talking about international law but Israel is a recognised state under international law, his point is you can't pick and choose the law to suit you.  He also advocates a two state solution because basically the entire world does also, advocating for something different, like BDS does, isn't going to end the conflict any quicker. Those are his points, some of it I agree with and some I don't but he's certainly no pariah and I've seen lectures by him at Palestinian justic groups recorded last year.


----------



## Brainaddict (May 1, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> What Malia was saying was overly simplistic.


Let's just stick with this and say it's not a good subject to be making overly-simplistic statements about. I doubt MB is in any deep way an anti-semite, but I think it's clear she's spent a lot of time around people who, while they will police certain language very carefully, are strangely lacking in care about how they talk about the Israel-Palestine issue. This itself should be worthy of some self-examination.


----------



## teqniq (May 1, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> It would be reasonable to argue that the BBC is the most influential news source in the UK. It also has significant reach around the world.
> 
> What is broadcast on BBC News is broadcast is controlled by a zionist.
> 
> What Malia was saying was overly simplistic although correct in the above instance and many others. The Israeli propaganda machine is multifaceted and well resourced. This allows them to saturate news desks with their version of events. Whereas the Palestinians don't have a pot to piss in.



Meanwhile the day to day reality for Palestinians doesn't make it to the pages of UK publications.

Witnesses: Palestinian siblings posed no threat when shot dead


----------



## Pickman's model (May 1, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> How did you formulate this question and why do you believe it important, esp in the light you believe it worthy of but a one word answer?


Diamond


----------



## DrRingDing (May 1, 2016)

Should those that promote genocide be no platformed?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 1, 2016)

teqniq said:


> Meanwhile the day to day reality for Palestinians doesn't make it to the pages of UK publications.
> 
> 
> Meanwhile the day to day reality for Palestinians doesn't make it to the pages of UK publications.
> ...


Tbh the day to day reality for most Palestinians in the Gaza strip is living on a diet which doesn't allow you to do that much. It is living not knowing when or why the Zionist entity will kill someone you know or are related to. It is a life of living on hold in the world's biggest prisons.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 1, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> Should those that promote genocide be no platformed?


rather more than that, surely.


----------



## DrRingDing (May 1, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> rather more than that, surely.



Indeed but where are we now?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 1, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> Indeed but where are we now?


On a bus


----------



## DrRingDing (May 1, 2016)

The point as I'm sure we're all aware is that the state of Israel is arguably committing genocide. The state has it's cheerleaders in the form of zionists. Should they have the right to a platform? At the moment they fucking pwn the platform.


----------



## Dandred (May 1, 2016)

I don't understand this, Ken said something which is factually correct, everyone going nuts about it. 

Anyone care to explain.


----------



## DrRingDing (May 1, 2016)

Dandred said:


> I don't understand this, Ken said something which is factually correct, everyone going nuts about it.
> 
> Anyone care to explain.



You may find a few clues in my last few posts.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 1, 2016)

Dandred said:


> I don't understand this, Ken said something which is factually correct, everyone going nuts about it.
> 
> Anyone care to explain.


Hitler won an election in 1932? Back to the history books with you


----------



## Knotted (May 1, 2016)

A few remarks on this Livingstone buisness.

There are a lot of Jews who identify with Israel and like the aspect of Zionist ideology which favours a state for Jews and/or as a safe place and/or as a way of preserving Jewish identity and/or see it in religious terms of return to their homeland and/or have family there. But very few are on board with the weirdness of the Zionist movement of the 1930's which was a minority movement with odd ideas about the "negation of the diaspora" and recreating Jewishness in a different mold and which had certain dubious dealings with Nazism (although I think these are often overstated). I think this is the source of the offence caused by Livingstone. Nobody has pointed this out which means either that I'm completely wrong on this or there is an unwillingness of many people (Zionists, pro-Zionists, various fence sitters and sympathisers and for that matter those who just want to focus their ire on Livingstone for whatever reason) to distance themselves from the real head bangers. And to be fair Livingstone's remarks were so crude nobody needs to go out of their way to explain what is wrong with them.

Now I don't actually care that much about the impact on the Labour Party. So I'm going to focus on the question of anti-semitism. Livingstone's remarks were 1) a weird non sequitur of the type which raises alarm bells (he's talking about Hitler all of a sudden wtf!) 2) they cause offense I beilieve primarily for the reason I have outlined 3) they could be read as absolving Hitler to some extent (I think these readings are contrived) but 4) they aren't actually anti-semitic in their own right.

What interests me is that accusations of bigotry substitute for political criticism. There is a different but parallel phenomenon with Zac Goldsmith's criticisms of Sadiq Khan and accusations of Islamophobia. I think this can only cause confusion and should be combatted. You don't have to bigotted to cause offense. And what offends the mainstream of a community or self-appointed community leaders may be just as much about questioning minds within that community clashing with the conservativism of that community.

The upshot with respect to anti-semitism is that debates around anti-semitism now become debates about the Israel-Palestine conflict. It is assumed that Jews are offended when certain boundaries are crossed with respect to critism or rejection of Israel. The question now becomes what are those boundaries and when you have marked out those boundaries when have they been crossed? The only way to see if Israel is being unfairly maligned or "singled out" is to look at the realities. All of a sudden you have to be an expert on Israel-Palestine before you can tell what anti-semitism is. This is a state of affairs mostly driven by Zionists themselves. They don't just want to use anti-semitism to deflect from the Israel-Palestine conflict but also they (perhaps unintentionally) use the Israel-Palestine conflict to deflect from discussion of anti-semitism.


----------



## Knotted (May 1, 2016)

And if I'm right on this then there will be little impact on the Labour Party electorally except for the impact of the infighting. The Maquis have scored a big victory but they aren't going to be able to capitlise on it. Not many people are interested in the Israel-Palestine conflict so few people are going to be interested in Israel-Palestine related anti-semitism. How many people can be bothered to work all that out? This whole thing is an argument between various Guardian reading weirdos.


----------



## gosub (May 1, 2016)

Knotted said:


> And if I'm right on this then there will be little impact on the Labour Party electorally except for the impact of the infighting. The Maquis have scored a big victory but they aren't going to be able to capitlise on it. Not many people are interested in the Israel-Palestine conflict so few people are going to be interested in Israel-Palestine related anti-semitism. How many people can be bothered to work all that out? This whole thing is an argument between various Guardian reading weirdos.


I prefered the thinking in the post before,  the"Maquis" didnt score a big victory, if anything the faux rage of Mann looked plastic.  Livingstone was an entirely self inflected wound.


----------



## weltweit (May 1, 2016)

While I did see the video clips, I am still unsure how Livingstone managed to go from Naz Shah is not an anti-Semite to "Hitler was pro Zionism". Whatever his route I am surprised he thought mentioning Hitler might reduce the media furore.


----------



## Dandred (May 1, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Hitler won an election in 1932? Back to the history books with you



So Ken got the year wrong but was still correct?


----------



## butchersapron (May 1, 2016)

Dandred said:


> So Ken got the year wrong but was still correct?


Do you think Hitler was a sane chap before say 1933 but then went a bit mad when he got into power? That's what it being technically correct entails. Now, given past comments of yours i wouldn't be surprised if you did.


----------



## gosub (May 1, 2016)

weltweit said:


> While I did see the video clips, I am still unsure how Livingstone managed to go from Naz Shah is not an anti-Semite to "Hitler was pro Zionism". Whatever his route I am surprised he thought mentioning Hitler might reduce the media furore.



Exactly.    I quite enjoyed the telegraph sketch


----------



## Knotted (May 1, 2016)

gosub said:


> I prefered the thinking in the post before,  the"Maquis" didnt score a big victory, if anything the faux rage of Mann looked plastic.  Livingstone was an entirely self inflected wound.



I think there's been a lot of groundwork put into this. Not just by the Maquis or course. But the whole idea of rampant left wing anti-semitism has been pushed for years if not decades. Livingstone's self-inflicted wound would not have had such dramatic effect if it had not been for that groundwork.


----------



## butchersapron (May 1, 2016)

In terms of Khan saying he fears electoral damage - i don't think that he does. Attempting to panic a) supporters and members to go out and get the vote out and b) labour voters who think the victory is already in the bag who might have been considering not turning out in the immediate days before an election is one of the oldest tricks in the book. So another counter-political tactic. And it's all been about tactics really.


----------



## Dandred (May 1, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Do you think Hitler was a sane chap before say 1933 but then went a bit mad when he got into power? That's what it being technically correct entails. Now, given past comments of yours i wouldn't be surprised if you did.



Hitler was mental, my grandmother was a Jew and escaped nazi Germany, however, did Hitler say that jews should go to Isreal as Ken suggested or not? 

(Also, please give examples of past comments which suggest I think Hitler was in anyway sane or reasonable, if you cannot I suggest you wind back the bullshit.)


----------



## weltweit (May 1, 2016)

Knotted said:


> I think there's been a lot of groundwork put into this. Not just by the Maquis or course. But the whole idea of rampant left wing anti-semitism has been pushed for years if not decades. Livingstone's self-inflicted wound would not have had such dramatic effect if it had not been for that groundwork.


Hmm, I don't know about left wing anti-Semitism, but I do think support for the Palestinian cause is stronger on the left and the Israel regime finds it hard to reconcile that support except by waving the anti-Semite banner at them. Are there many pro Palestinians on the right?


----------



## CNT36 (May 1, 2016)

Cloo said:


> I am disgusted by Israel's behaviour, but I often feel alienated by the wider movement that opposes it. For example, protests may feature groups that oppose the existence at all of Israel and, having had a long discussion with my other half this morning about it, I've come to the conclusion that I find the language used about Israel very offensive a lot of the time, even if I agree with the issues that are being protested/discussed. I do believe that a lot of Israel's behaviour is very like the Nazis' (perhaps above all the in the dehumanising beaurocracy and daily obstruction and humiliation of Palestinians going about their business) but I think it is generally deeply offensive to Jews to refer to a Jewish country 'Nazi' as I have seen some people do. I don't feel the same about 'apartheid state' as that's not something I find offensive to Jews.
> 
> The fact is, no one is going to 'shame' Israel into stopping what it does by comparing them to the Nazis, they will continue saying, until the cows come home that they are defending themselves against Palestinian aggression, whereas the Jews had done nothing to the Germans. But it is a language that will offend and alienate Jews from joining in wider movements in support of Palestine.
> 
> Pickman's model - I think what treelover means is that if someone feels their identity targeted or offended by something, people outside that identity don't get to tell them that they shouldn't be offended by it.


As a white man I feel modern laws against me raping my wife and inciting racial hatred are offensive and targetting others like me just trying to get on. Don't get me started on ethics in games journalism.


----------



## Knotted (May 1, 2016)

weltweit said:


> Hmm, I don't know about left wing anti-Semitism, but I do think support for the Palestinian cause is stronger on the left and the Israel regime finds it hard to reconcile that support except by waving the anti-Semite banner at them. Are there many pro Palestinians on the right?



Sure that's the thinking. But the more interesting question is what are the politics of those who are attracted to anti-semitic themes with respect to the Israel-Palestine question? I think they come from the left, the right and the center.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 1, 2016)

treelover said:


> Nick Cohen joins the affray, its pretty incendiary



It's bullshit of the same low order of most of his stuff in the last 5-6 years.


----------



## butchersapron (May 1, 2016)

Dandred said:


> Hitler was mental, my grandmother was a Jew and escaped nazi Germany, however, did Hitler say that jews should go to Isreal as Ken suggested or not?
> 
> (Also, please give examples of past comments which suggest I think Hitler was in anyway sane or reasonable, if you cannot I suggest you wind back the bullshit.)


I suggest that you look at what he said and what he said being technically correct would mean - he said 'before hitler went mad' -  which, to be technically correct as you suggest, means that before say 1932/3 he was sane. Which you now say he wasn't - which throws your suggestion that he was technically correct in what he said into serious doubt. If by technically correct you mean he massed together a series of context free half-remembered facts (for no reason whatsoever)  then added a clearly bollocks and quite ridiculous claim on the end then you would be right. is that what you meant?

I think we've all see the eliminationist logic that you have attempted to apply recently, and how that mirrors the sort of anti-jewish propoganda the nazis specialised in  - and i imagine that you think you were sane in doing so. So no, it wouldn't have surprised me to see you argue that this incorrect bit you describe as technically correct (hitler being a sensible chap before 1932/3). As i said, you actually have to or take back your claim that it's technically correct. Which is to be?


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 1, 2016)

Cloo said:


> William L Hitchcock's great book 'Liberation: The bitter road to freedom' was a real eye opener on the foundation of Israel- it seems it was as much a logistical solution as one as one of conscience; there were countless thousands of displaced Jews who couldn't, or understandably wouldn't, return home. I totally agree that the argument about Israel's right to be there is immaterial now - it _is _there, it's not going away and the question is how we deal with that and find a just solution for the Palestinian people that gives them land and freedom.



The problem being that the current iteration of Zionist nationalism in the state of Israel posits an *absolute* right to the land currently occupied. It's not a solid foundation for a "solution", and has allowed the sort of mendacity that successive "peace processes" have descended into.


----------



## Bernie Gunther (May 1, 2016)

Knotted said:


> <snip> This whole thing is an argument between various Guardian reading weirdos.



It sort of feels like this was the whole point of the exercise.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 1, 2016)

treelover said:


> Btw, i just spoke to my older friend, she is jewish but now a christian, she was hurt by Livingstone and Shahs comments, and in the modern idiom of equal opportunities, etc, used all the time by the left, it is the victim who defines what hurts and what doesn't. She also wondered why do the left focus on israel so much, when there are other dismal regimes in the region, she is not a Zionist or even talks much about Israel, but she is concerned the ways things are going.



She may have been hurt by their comments, but I'll nail my colours to the mast here and say that if Jews *do* come to harm, it'll be because of the spinning that the likes of Mann and the media have put on their comments, not because of the comments themselves.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (May 1, 2016)

Knotted said:


> Now I don't actually care that much about the impact on the Labour Party. So I'm going to focus on the question of anti-semitism. Livingstone's remarks were 1) a weird non sequitur of the type which raises alarm bells (he's talking about Hitler all of a sudden wtf!) 2) they cause offense I beilieve primarily for the reason I have outlined 3) they could be read as absolving Hitler to some extent (I think these readings are contrived) but 4) they aren't actually anti-semitic in their own right.



Hmmm. Not sure about that. Your points 1) and 4) are somewhat contradictory. I do think it's revealing of something extremely unpleasant that someone like Livingstone should be spouting ignorant-pub-bore history like this. 'actually anti-semitic in their own right'? So dickish that they might as well be. Smells from that direction are very bad.



Knotted said:


> What interests me is that accusations of bigotry substitute for political criticism. There is a different but parallel phenomenon with Zac Goldsmith's criticisms of Sadiq Khan and accusations of Islamophobia. I think this can only cause confusion and should be combatted. You don't have to bigotted to cause offense. And what offends the mainstream of a community or self-appointed community leaders may be just as much about questioning minds within that community clashing with the conservativism of that community.



Point here is the dogwhistle stuff, surely - Goldsmith's leaflets aimed at Hindus, for example. They don't say 'I'm not a Pakistani', but they might as well do. 



Knotted said:


> All of a sudden you have to be an expert on Israel-Palestine before you can tell what anti-semitism is. This is a state of affairs mostly driven by Zionists themselves. They don't just want to use anti-semitism to deflect from the Israel-Palestine conflict but also they (perhaps unintentionally) use the Israel-Palestine conflict to deflect from discussion of anti-semitism.



Bimble pointed this out earlier - and yes, its intention is not to counter anti-semitism so much as to exploit it.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 1, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> The motivations are irrelevant. The fact remains, if you believe Jewish people regardless of their nationality and background are entitled to Palestine you are a Zionist. Don't try and confuse the issue. It's simple.



One thing that the issue has never been, is "simple". To say that it is...well, it's your usual shallow approach to any question, isn't it? You don't take account of what is meant by "Jewish", of what is meant (by various Jews, not by you) by "Zionism", or what is meant by "Israel".


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 1, 2016)

goldenecitrone said:


> Mark Regev just on Andrew Marr denouncing Livingstone as a perverter of history. Happy May Day, Ken.



It'd take one to know one, and Regev was happy to pervert history in his day.


----------



## DrRingDing (May 1, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> One thing that the issue has never been, is "simple". To say that it is...well, it's your usual shallow approach to any question, isn't it? You don't take account of what is meant by "Jewish", of what is meant (by various Jews, not by you) by "Zionism", or what is meant by "Israel".



You _assume_ I don't take into account those things.


----------



## Knotted (May 1, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Hmmm. Not sure about that. Your points 1) and 4) are somewhat contradictory. I do think it's revealing of something extremely unpleasant that someone like Livingstone should be spouting ignorant-pub-bore history like this. 'actually anti-semitic in their own right'? So dickish that they might as well be. Smells from that direction are very bad.



It's the type of nonsense that's ten a penny on the internet. Idiots trying to make oh so clever points. It's somewhat alarming to see it in a career politician who is supposed to be polished. I think there is a double problem with anti-semitism. It's not just prejudice, it's so damned kooky with all this stuff about conspiracies. This was kookiness, but it the prejudice just isn't there.



littlebabyjesus said:


> Point here is the dogwhistle stuff, surely - Goldsmith's leaflets aimed at Hindus, for example. They don't say 'I'm not a Pakistani', but they might as well do.



It's obvious that Goldsmith is trying to exploit Khan's national background, and there is a whole lot of things wrong with that, but there are no dog whistles.



littlebabyjesus said:


> Bimble pointed this out earlier - and yes, its intention is not to counter anti-semitism so much as to exploit it.



I don't actually agree with that. I think it's mostly sincere.


----------



## Dandred (May 1, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> I think we've all see the eliminationist logic that you have attempted to apply recently, and how



You're mental if you think that post is anti-semitic.


----------



## butchersapron (May 1, 2016)

Dandred said:


> You're mental if you think that post is anti-semitic.


I didn't say that it was anti-semitic. I said it demonstrated eliminationist logic. And it does. You will not find a purer expression of modern street-level third-position style fascism with it's update and mirroring on the eliminationist logic of the nazis (oddly enough, often with defence of the Israelie state as a central component). 

is that the entirety of your reply to my post btw? Or is there more to come?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (May 1, 2016)

Knotted said:


> I don't actually agree with that. I think it's mostly sincere.


When accusations of anti-Semitism are used to shut down criticism of Israel, it's anything but sincere. It's as cynical as you like.

Or are you saying that Zionists who see the only solution for Jews to live as Jews is to move to Israel are sincere in their belief? If so, maybe, but they're still exploiting rather than countering anti-semitism to further their belief.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 1, 2016)

Dandred said:


> Hitler was mental, my grandmother was a Jew and  escaped nazi Germany, however, did Hitler say that jews should go to Isreal as Ken suggested or not?
> 
> (Also, please give examples of past comments which suggest I think Hitler was in anyway sane or reasonable, if you cannot I suggest you wind back the bullshit.)



There's a whole raft of historical research that shows that Hitler *did* negotiate on the issue of a "Jewish National Home". There was serious money put into researching the viability of Madagascar as a destination for expelled "stateless" Jews.
The holocaust was economic opportunism writ large. It was more - horrifically and vilely - economically-effective for the Nazis to commit genocide and expropriate European Jewry utterly, than it was to ship them to an enclave. This is also reflected in Nazi behaviour toward conquered "races", and the use of forced labour throughout the Third Reich. Economic instrumentalism taken to the ultimate conclusion.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 1, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> You _assume_ I don't take into account those things.



The content of your post speaks for you, that you didn't, or else your post would have been more nuanced.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (May 1, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> There's a whole raft of historical research that shows that Hitler *did* negotiate on the issue of a "Jewish National Home". There was serious money put into researching the viability of Madagascar as a destination for expelled "stateless" Jews.
> The holocaust was economic opportunism writ large. It was more - horrifically and vilely - economically-effective for the Nazis to commit genocide and expropriate European Jewry utterly, than it was to ship them to an enclave. This is also reflected in Nazi behaviour toward conquered "races", and the use of forced labour throughout the Third Reich. Economic instrumentalism taken to the ultimate conclusion.


Surely the bottom line of this, and the reason Livingstone was so utterly out of order, is the difference between 'we're hated, we must leave' and 'we hate you, you must leave'. An inability to see that the latter was _always_ Hitler's position is what makes Livingstone's comments so out of order and offensively wrong.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 1, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Surely the bottom line of this, and the reason Livingstone was so utterly out of order, is the difference between 'we're hated, we must leave' and 'we hate you, you must leave'. An inability to see that the latter was _always_ Hitler's position is what makes Livingstone's comments so out of order and offensively wrong.



So there's no distinction between a hatred that exiles, and a hatred that enacts genocide?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (May 1, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> So there's no distinction between a hatred that exiles, and a hatred that enacts genocide?


I don't know - that's a rather existential question. But no, probably not much difference. When Jews were expelled from Spain, they were given the choice of leaving, converting or dying.

ETA:

To clarify that a little, if you're expelling a particular ethnic group, the alternative to that expulsion for those in that group is invariably death. The hatred behind the two is very much the same - they're two different solutions to the same perceived problem.


----------



## DrRingDing (May 1, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> The content of your post speaks for you, that you didn't, or else your post would have been more nuanced.



Because I didn't spoon feed you doesn't justify making assumptions.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 1, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> Because I didn't spoon feed you doesn't justify making assumptions.



Yeah, whatevs.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 1, 2016)

Dandred said:


> So Ken got the year wrong but was still correct?


I think if you had asked Hitler at any point during his career "are you or have you ever been a zionist" you'd have been fortunate to emerge from the encounter with just an earbashing.


----------



## gosub (May 1, 2016)

Dandred said:


> I don't understand this, Ken said something which is factually correct, everyone going nuts about it.
> 
> Anyone care to explain.



Would this be the time to point out that Hitler, during his "mad" years, was on a vegetarian diet - just like Corbyn


----------



## Pickman's model (May 1, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Surely the bottom line of this, and the reason Livingstone was so utterly out of order, is the difference between 'we're hated, we must leave' and 'we hate you, you must leave'. An inability to see that the latter was _always_ Hitler's position is what makes Livingstone's comments so out of order and offensively wrong.


tbh what made kl's comments so out of order and offensively wrong was his ahistorical view combined with a view that what he was saying somehow added to the debate. It matters not a whit what Hitler thought of the jews in 1932 or 1934 or 1943, his views were solely "what is it possible to do to remove the jews from German/European life", and very much not "let's give the jews a homeland"


----------



## bimble (May 1, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Conflation isn't the problem. Anti-semites hide behind anti-zionism. The problem is people like this clown not giving a shit enough to do the work to differentiate.
> Being anti-zionist is not a defence against anti-semitism.



Just want to say that this post above, it's spot on.
It was put here in riposte to my kneejerk simplistic "anti-zionism is totally cool, carry on, don't worry it's not the same thing at all" effort the other day.
Somehow I hadn't twigged till now that for about 20 I've been doing a sterling effort of refusing to see the above.


----------



## agricola (May 1, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> There's a whole raft of historical research that shows that Hitler *did* negotiate on the issue of a "Jewish National Home". There was serious money put into researching the viability of Madagascar as a destination for expelled "stateless" Jews.
> The holocaust was economic opportunism writ large. It was more - horrifically and vilely - economically-effective for the Nazis to commit genocide and expropriate European Jewry utterly, than it was to ship them to an enclave. This is also reflected in Nazi behaviour toward conquered "races", and the use of forced labour throughout the Third Reich. Economic instrumentalism taken to the ultimate conclusion.



I think the problem here is that "Hitler" is used where "the Nazi Government" would be a lot more accurate term.

After all, Hitler's style of rule meant that, at any one time, loads of different people and groups within the Nazi hierarchy would have been planning / negotiating / carrying out stuff in the belief that they had (or could get) sanction from the very top - that is how the Haavara Agreement could be agreed and enacted at the same time as Himmler was assembling the system that would allow the final solution to take place, and whilst others were bringing in legal restrictions / carrying out acts of outright terror like Kristallnacht, beating up people on the street and enforcing the boycott.

Hitler himself probably didn't conceive of (or give effective support to) any of the actual proposals, beyond expressing a desire that the "Jewish problem" be sorted out to the detriment of the Jews; (edit) at least until he started the war and the power of Himmler and Heydrich got to the point where they were able to put their policy into effect.


----------



## Dogsauce (May 1, 2016)

Whatever Tory talking point it is that has been circulated specifically seems to include the wording 'Labour's growing anti semitism problem'. Their inside person at the BBC seems keen to repeat this. Is there any evidence that this is a 'growing' problem or is it just being disingenuously portrayed this way? I don't think they've got that much to go on really, certainly before Ken opened his gob (when the phrase was already well in circulation).


----------



## brogdale (May 1, 2016)

Dogsauce said:


> Whatever Tory talking point it is that has been circulated specifically seems to include the wording 'Labour's growing anti semitism problem'. Their inside person at the BBC seems keen to repeat this. Is there any evidence that this is a 'growing' problem or is it just being disingenuously portrayed this way? *I don't think they've got that much to go on really*, certainly before Ken opened his gob (when the phrase was already well in circulation).


They've got masses....according to their definitions of anti-semitism.


----------



## Rob Ray (May 1, 2016)

Dogsauce said:


> Whatever Tory talking point it is that has been circulated specifically seems to include the wording 'Labour's growing anti semitism problem'. Their inside person at the BBC seems keen to repeat this. Is there any evidence that this is a 'growing' problem or is it just being disingenuously portrayed this way? I don't think they've got that much to go on really, certainly before Ken opened his gob (when the phrase was already well in circulation).



Thus far despite a pretty grand effort from both the Labour right and the press to trawl social media posts there's been precisely ten accusations of anti-semitism in a party of 488,000 people, including more than 10,000 roles (councillors, party apparatchiks etc) which would be senior enough to matter. Which is about 0.002% of the membership and less than 0.1% of reps - for comparison, about 52% of the British public admit outright to anti-semitic thinking. So the available evidence doesn't really suggest so, or not enough that it should be a major talking point compared to say, senior Tories' frequent excursions into general racism of all kinds.

There _is _an important debate to be had about anti-semitism and the left. Without doubt, people with an anti-semitic axe to grind, often who have been part of conspiraloonery in the past, have found in the Palestine solidarity movement a convenient stalking horse for their own obsessions. And elements of the left have sometimes given them way too much leeway with that, either cynically or through mild anti-semitic tendencies of their own or whatever. How the left specifically deals with such people is worth talking about.

But as has been noted before here, that conversation isn't the one which is being had in the press, which is centering around a pretended "special problem" that Labour's acquired (a racist undertone to this being that Labour's basically in hoc to Muslim hierarchs btw, which has been a major plank of Zac Goldsmith's slur campaign against Khan and has gotten minimal attention). The current real issue is that an ongoing strain of anti-semitism which is present and culturally repressed across basically the entire political spectrum, which has been around from year dot, is being kicked up, utilised and magnified by a bunch of bitter right-wingers in an entirely self-centred and cynical way to push for a party coup. 

The disgusting thing is that they've been quite prepared to manufacture an "outrage" that will in all likelihood end up emboldening anti-semites, who will consider their discussions to have been shifted towards the mainstream.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 1, 2016)

agricola said:


> I think the problem here is that "Hitler" is used where "the Nazi Government" would be a lot more accurate term.
> 
> After all, Hitler's style of rule meant that, at any one time, loads of different people and groups within the Nazi hierarchy would have been planning / negotiating / carrying out stuff in the belief that they had (or could get) sanction from the very top - that is how the Haavara Agreement could be agreed and enacted at the same time as Himmler was assembling the system that would allow the final solution to take place, and whilst others were bringing in legal restrictions / carrying out acts of outright terror like Kristallnacht, beating up people on the street and enforcing the boycott.
> 
> Hitler himself probably didn't conceive of (or give effective support to) any of the actual proposals, beyond expressing a desire that the "Jewish problem" be sorted out to the detriment of the Jews; (edit) at least until he started the war and the power of Himmler and Heydrich got to the point where they were able to put their policy into effect.



A fair point.
I would also add that the mechanisms for the final solution would have been equally well-used if policy had followed the desire of Bormann and some others (mostly ethnic Germans) that enslavement followed by liquidation be perpetrated on all Slavs, instead of the focus on Jews. Jews were sadly more of an economic yield for Greater Germany's war chest than the Slavs, and an easier target.


----------



## bimble (May 1, 2016)

Impressive, VP: You appear to construe the whole final solution thing as basically a rational economic decision, nothing personal like, nothing inherently connected with actual jew-hatred being an issue at the time. In a way, Hitler wasn't really an antisemite as such?


----------



## andysays (May 1, 2016)

bimble said:


> Impressive, VP: You appear to construe the whole final solution thing as basically a rational economic decision, *nothing personal like*, nothing inherently connected with actual jew-hatred being an issue at the time. In a way, Hitler wasn't really an antisemite as such?



I realise this isn't quite what you're referring to, and maybe this is going off at a tangent, but it's surely not simply about whether Hitler personally was an anti-semite and/or "mental", or when he personally stepped over some line from one thing to another.

If Hitler's undoubted personal anti-semitism hadn't had a wider resonance with a far greater number of people, then the scapegoating of Jews which led eventually to the Final Solution wouldn't have been successful. Whether or not it was a rational *economic* decision (and I don't think VP is suggesting it can be reduced to that alone), there's a sense in which it was a rational *political* tactic from the point of view of those who used it.


----------



## agricola (May 1, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> A fair point.
> I would also add that the mechanisms for the final solution would have been equally well-used if policy had followed the desire of Bormann and some others (mostly ethnic Germans) that enslavement followed by liquidation be perpetrated on all Slavs, instead of the focus on Jews. Jews were sadly more of an economic yield for Greater Germany's war chest than the Slavs, and an easier target.



That is almost certainly what would have occurred given Himmler's own thoughts on what should eventually happen to the non-German peoples of the East; though even there there was a large difference of opinion within the hierarchy - the work that culminated with the ROA and Vlasov, for instance.


----------



## butchersapron (May 1, 2016)

On the functionalists vs intentionalists.  And, of course, see Adam Tooze for the economics and how they impacted on, influenced anti-semitic actions etc. Bit surprised at some of the stuff that's appearing as new to some posters here.


----------



## bimble (May 1, 2016)

andysays said:


> I realise this isn't quite what you're referring to, and maybe this is going off at a tangent, but it's surely not simply about whether Hitler personally was an anti-semite and/or "mental", or when he personally stepped over some line from one thing to another.
> If Hitler's undoubted personal anti-semitism hadn't had a wider resonance with a far greater number of people, then the scapegoating of Jews which led eventually to the Final Solution wouldn't have been successful. Whether or not it was a rational *economic* decision (and I don't think VP is suggesting it can be reduced to that alone), there's a sense in which it was a rational *political* tactic from the point of view of those who used it.


Err, yes. My post above was the bleakest kind of joke. If it was just Hitler all by himself, 'going mental', cos he didn't get into art college, it might not have quite made the headlines the way it did in the end. So yeah, he needed a certain amount of backup, like say a few centuries of anti-jew suspicion and loathing amongst the wider population, something like that.


----------



## butchersapron (May 1, 2016)

Oh no, not the Golhagen thesis now.


----------



## bimble (May 1, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Oh no, not the Golhagen thesis now.


No. Not that. Was just responding to andy who said that hitler wouldn't have managed it if his antisemitism hadn't "had a wider resonance with a far greater number of people'.  I really should bugger off shouldn't i.


----------



## Coolfonz (May 1, 2016)

Diamond said:


> That is complete bollocks.
> 
> I associated with left-wing circles for literally years at university in the early noughties and, while it was not routine, calling someone a Jew because they hadn't paid their way by buying a round was common.
> 
> You think that I'm trying to score cheap points now?  There's a good possibility that you can find me posting about all that stuff a decade or so ago if you want to actually do your research.



Desperate bullshit you bigoted prick.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 1, 2016)

bimble said:


> Err, yes. My post above was the bleakest kind of joke. If it was just Hitler all by himself, 'going mental', cos he didn't get into art college, it might not have quite made the headlines the way it did in the end. So yeah, he needed a certain amount of backup, like say a few centuries of anti-jew suspicion and loathing amongst the wider population, something like that.


That being the case why do you think so many attempts were made to keep things secret or covert eg the widespread use of euphemisms?


----------



## bimble (May 1, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> That being the case why do you think so many attempts were made to keep things secret or covert eg the widespread use of euphemisms?


What are you on about. It's not one or the other, is it. Just ignore me please pickman, until I either give you a fulsome apology or go fuck myself as you suggested.


----------



## treelover (May 1, 2016)

Owen Jones is being savaged by hundreds of posters on his FB page, he seems genuinely baffled and hurt, it does show the SWP/STWC/Counterfire wing is quite strong.

Bimble, many on here value your contribution, don't be bullied off here.


----------



## J Ed (May 1, 2016)

treelover said:


> Owen Jones is being savaged by hundreds of posters on his FB page, he seems genuinely baffled and hurt, it does show the SWP/STWC/Counterfire wing is quite strong.
> 
> Bimble, many on here value your contribution, don't be bullied off here.



The most 'liked' reply to one of his posts on the recent subject includes holocaust denial.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 1, 2016)

bimble said:


> What are you on about. It's not one or the other, is it. Just ignore me please pickman, until I either give you a fulsome apology or go fuck myself as you suggested.


you've never wondered why auschwitz and treblinka and sobibor etc were in the back of beyond? Why even in official documents the Nazis did their best to obscure precisely what they were up to? The Nazis must have thought the Holocaust wouldn't have gone down too well with some people if they knew all about it...


----------



## DrRingDing (May 1, 2016)

treelover said:


> Owen Jones is being savaged by hundreds of posters on his FB page



Good. He's filthy opportunist.


----------



## Doctor Carrot (May 1, 2016)

J Ed said:


> The most 'liked' reply to one of his posts on the recent subject includes holocaust denial.



Is that the one talking about Hobsbawm?  Yeah it's all a bit


----------



## treelover (May 1, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> Good. He's filthy opportunist.



You really are bonkers.


----------



## treelover (May 1, 2016)

J Ed said:


> The most 'liked' reply to one of his posts on the recent subject includes holocaust denial.




If it was somone on the far right who had posted that, there would be major attempts to find out where he/she lives,


----------



## Pickman's model (May 1, 2016)

treelover said:


> Bimble, many on here value your contribution, don't be bullied off here.


Not surprised to see you defend vile insults. You clearly don't see anything wrong arrogating to herself the right to determine who's jewish. Bully for you, treelover, bully for you.


----------



## ferrelhadley (May 1, 2016)

Labour did not have a major antisemitism problem. They do now. 

Politics is so unfair eh. The baddies on the other team find your weak points and exploit\magnify them out of proportion. 

Jolly unsporting.


----------



## bimble (May 1, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Not surprised to see you defend vile insults. You clearly don't see anything wrong arrogating to herself the right to determine who's jewish. Bully for you, treelover, bully for you.


I viley insulted you by wrongly accusing you of being.. Not even a tiny bit Jewish? Oh no. How awful. You'd be funny if you were less sad.
Meanwhile, fuck off with your 'the camps were in the middle of nowhere' bollocks. My grandparents were rounded up & delivered to the nazis by a helpful bunch of their neighbours, from Bratislava. The villagers of  sobibor never noticed a bad smell .etc.  Jesus.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 1, 2016)

bimble said:


> I viley insulted you by wrongly accusing you of being.. Not even a tiny bit Jewish? Oh no. How awful. You'd be funny if you were less sad.
> Meanwhile, fuck off with your 'the camps were in the middle of nowhere' bollocks. My grandparents were rounded up & delivered to the nazis by a helpful bunch of their neighbours, from Bratislava. The villagers of  sobibor never noticed a bad smell .etc.  Jesus.


If I had never previously mentioned being jewish, yes, I would have let your goysplaining shit pass. I find what you said very offensive, as I have no doubt it was intended to be. I am very sorry to hear about your grandparents, but a) you're by no means the only person here to lose relatives in the holocaust, most people don't use them as tools or pawns in an argument; b) sobibor etc in the back end of beyond for the people whose opinion mattered to Hitler, the Germans; if the Nazi anti-semitic campaign as popular, as resonant as you suggest then why weren't the death camps nearer reich metropolitan centres?


----------



## teqniq (May 1, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> On the functionalists vs intentionalists.  And, of course, see Adam Tooze for the economics and how they impacted on, influenced anti-semitic actions etc. Bit surprised at some of the stuff that's appearing as new to some posters here.


There's always new stuff being talked about on here, not necessarily in this instance, although _some_ of it is new to me but that's what I love about this place.


----------



## DrRingDing (May 1, 2016)

treelover said:


> You really are bonkers.



Who uses that as a pejorative?!

I foresee Owen Jones on the Labour front bench soon enough. He may even be PM one day....if his dreams come true.


----------



## gosub (May 1, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> Who uses that as a pejorative?!
> 
> I foresee Owen Jones on the Labour front bench soon enough. He may even be PM one day....if his dreams come true.



That would make me a contributor to the things that make you feel old thread.....he looks about 12.


----------



## DrRingDing (May 1, 2016)

gosub said:


> That would make me a contributor to the things that make you feel old thread.....he looks about 12.



Oh he's a cutie but behind that mask is an ambitious and calculated politician.


----------



## goldenecitrone (May 2, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> Oh he's a cutie but behind that mask is an ambitious and calculated politician.



He'd do. At least he looks honest. Aha, ha ha aha ha.


----------



## mk12 (May 2, 2016)

Richard Evans (historian of Nazi Germany and the holocaust):


----------



## Bernie Gunther (May 2, 2016)

I've seen some criticism before of the polemical nature of Brenner's stuff (as opposed to Ken's cack-handed use of it) from academics, but is there any substantial factual challenge from legit historians on his source material?


----------



## Diamond (May 2, 2016)

Bernie Gunther said:


> I've seen some criticism before of the polemical nature of Brenner's stuff (as opposed to Ken's cack-handed use of it) from academics, but is there any substantial factual challenge from legit historians on his source material?



Isn't Richard Evans a "legit historian"?


----------



## Bernie Gunther (May 2, 2016)

Sure he is, but that would be an example of 'criticism of the polemical nature ... ' at least in the stuff mk12 cited above.

Rather than e.g. showing that the primary sources Brenner cites documenting various kinds of zionist collaboration, or attempted collaboration, with the Nazis are forgeries or something.

Evans or other legit historians may have done this elsewhere though, which is what I'm asking about.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 2, 2016)

Bernie Gunther said:


> Sure he is, but that would be an example of 'criticism of the polemical nature ... ' at least in the stuff mk12 cited above.
> 
> Rather than e.g. showing that the primary sources Brenner cites documenting various kinds of zionist collaboration, or attempted collaboration, with the Nazis are forgeries or something.
> 
> Evans or other legit historians may have done this elsewhere though, which is what I'm asking about.


More likely to find dodgy referencing and inferences drawn


----------



## Diamond (May 2, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> More likely to find dodgy referencing and inferences drawn



Example?


----------



## Diamond (May 2, 2016)

We are veering amazingly close to Holocaust denial now


----------



## two sheds (May 2, 2016)

Diamond said:


> Example?



You not going to answer my question?


----------



## Bernie Gunther (May 2, 2016)

mk12 said:


> Richard Evans (historian of Nazi Germany and the holocaust):



Here's the source for that, interesting comments following.


----------



## Diamond (May 2, 2016)

Listen - I have a close friend who spent two years converting from a Christian background to Judaism .In fact many Jews to this day would not regard him as a "yid" despite the fact that he was circumcised without any anaesthetic at the age of 31.

I went to his wedding - it was amazingly lavish.

And it was everything that antisemites hate.

And if my Muslim gf, who was not available, had attended you would have found it very confusing.


----------



## Bernie Gunther (May 2, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> More likely to find dodgy referencing and inferences drawn



Sure, but if I recall right at least one of his books is _just_ a collection of (rather damning) primary sources.

If those were some sort of "Protocols" style forgery I'd expect to find a lot of links to real historians saying so.


----------



## bimble (May 2, 2016)

The handy coinage ZioNazis is doing a roaring trade on the internets lately.


----------



## Cid (May 2, 2016)

Diamond said:


> Listen - I have a close friend who spent two years converting from a Christian background to Judaism .In fact many Jews to this day would not regard him as a "yid" despite the fact that he was circumcised without any anaesthetic at the age of 31.
> 
> I went to his wedding - it was amazingly lavish.
> 
> ...



Is there a point to this?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 2, 2016)

Bernie Gunther said:


> Sure, but if I recall right at least one of his books is _just_ a collection of (rather damning) primary sources.
> 
> If those were some sort of "Protocols" style forgery I'd expect to find a lot of links to real historians saying so.


Look on scholar where you'll find his Zionism in the age of the dictators cited by 102; click on the 102 to see who cited it. I'll c&p the contexts later.


----------



## Idris2002 (May 2, 2016)

I'll just chip this in, tell me what you think.

A lot of what we're seeing here - from the naive (IMO) belief that a set of demands that worked in the South African case can be transferred over to the Israeli/Palestinian case, without any acknowledgement of the fact that the differences between the two cases are as important as the parallels, to the idiotic "Hitler was a Zionist" shite, can be summed up as the work of people who don't want to think about the situation in a clear and detailed fashion. Well you do have to think about it.

As for Corbyn, I saw this on his twitter feed:



Good words, but they will have to be backed up with action. A party becomes strong by purging itself, as Lenin taught us.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 2, 2016)

bimble said:


> The handy coinage ZioNazis is doing a roaring trade on the internets lately.


Some people are easily impressed by this sort of this sort of thing


----------



## Pickman's model (May 2, 2016)

Cid said:


> Is there a point to this?


I'll save diamond the bother: no


----------



## mystic pyjamas (May 2, 2016)

Diamond said:


> Listen - I have a close friend who spent two years converting from a Christian background to Judaism .In fact many Jews to this day would not regard him as a "yid" despite the fact that he was circumcised without any anaesthetic at the age of 31.
> 
> I went to his wedding - it was amazingly lavish.
> 
> ...


 You seem to have a wide circle of friends on which you're able to draw on as examples to back up any particular points you are trying to make here on urban.
Amazing.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 2, 2016)

mystic pyjamas said:


> You seem to have a wide circle of friends on which you're able to draw on as examples to back up any particular points you are trying to make here on urban.
> Amazing.


It's his variation on millions of pms of support


----------



## Idris2002 (May 2, 2016)

Bernie Gunther said:


> Sure, but if I recall right at least one of his books is _just_ a collection of (rather damning) primary sources.
> 
> If those were some sort of "Protocols" style forgery I'd expect to find a lot of links to real historians saying so.


Link here quotes David Rosenberg, of the Jewish Socialist Group, describing it as 'tabloid history', and basically unreliable:

Benjamin Netanyahu and Lenni Brenner: What is Ken Livingstone basing his Hitler-Zionist comments on?

During the 1930s, some members of the Haganah visited Dublin and asked for, and got, advice on how to fight the British Empire. Does that mean that all Zionists are secretly Irish Republicans?


----------



## Bernie Gunther (May 2, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Look on scholar where you'll find his Zionism in the age of the dictators cited by 102; click on the 102 to see who cited it. I'll c&p the contexts later.



Appreciate it.

edited to add: found it myself, useful tool ... thanks!


----------



## Bernie Gunther (May 2, 2016)

Idris2002 said:


> Link here quotes David Rosenberg, of the Jewish Socialist Group, describing it as 'tabloid history', and basically unreliable:
> 
> Benjamin Netanyahu and Lenni Brenner: What is Ken Livingstone basing his Hitler-Zionist comments on?
> 
> During the 1930s, some members of the Haganah visited Dublin and asked for, and got, advice on how to fight the British Empire. Does that mean that all Zionists are secretly Irish Republicans?



Sure, Ken's comments were clearly witless, but I seem to recall (Brenner's stuff used to be on marxists.de) that he made a somewhat persuasive and referenced, albeit polemical, case for e.g. quasi-fascist tendencies within pre-war revisionist zionism.

What I found online though was mostly furious zionists comparing Brenner with holocaust deniers rather than substantially challenging his content.

So I'd really like to see a proper critique from real historians showing that e.g. he's some sort of Trot version of David Irving as the Harry's Place crowd are claiming this morning.

Edited to add the 'Ken was witless' bit ...


----------



## bimble (May 2, 2016)

Idris2002 said:


> A lot of what we're seeing here can be summed up as the work of people who don't want to think about the situation in a clear and detailed fashion. Well you do have to think about it.





DrRingDing said:


> Don't try and confuse the issue. It's simple.


----------



## redsquirrel (May 2, 2016)

Diamond said:


> We are veering amazingly close to Holocaust denial now





Diamond said:


> And if my Muslim gf, who was not available, had attended you would have found it very confusing.


Who is the _we/you_ here? PM? Bernie? Name names.


----------



## butchersapron (May 2, 2016)

Bernie Gunther said:


> Sure, but I seem to recall (Brenner's stuff used to be on marxists.de) that he made a somewhat persuasive and referenced, albeit polemical, case for e.g. quasi-fascist tendencies within pre-war revisionist zionism.
> 
> What I found online though was mostly furious zionists comparing Brenner with holocaust deniers rather than substantially challenging his content.
> 
> So I'd really like to see a proper critique from real historians showing that e.g. he's some sort of Trot version of David Irving as the Harry's Place crowd are claiming this morning.


I think a better comparison is finklestein in the days when he was ignored, couldn't get his books and work reviewed, get academic work or find influential publishers, in fact was under an informal boycott and was painted as a holocaust denier and Irving style crackpot. And that was for a very very long time.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 2, 2016)

Idris2002 said:


> I'll just chip this in, tell me what you think.
> 
> A lot of what we're seeing here - from the naive (IMO) belief that a set of demands that worked in the South African case can be transferred over to the Israeli/Palestinian case, without any acknowledgement of the fact that the differences between the two cases are as important as the parallels, to the idiotic "Hitler was a Zionist" shite, can be summed up as the work of people who don't want to think about the situation in a clear and detailed fashion. Well you do have to think about it.
> 
> ...



Laxatives all round


----------



## Diamond (May 2, 2016)

This is ridiculous - now I'm making up friends in order to defend Judaism?

Have a word with yourselves.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 2, 2016)

Diamond said:


> This is ridiculous - now I'm making up friends in order to defend Judaism?
> 
> Have a word with yourselves.


Not to defend Judaism but in a feeble attempt to advance your threadbare argument


----------



## Diamond (May 2, 2016)

I can tell you a lot more detail about my pal - personal trainer/stabbed several times on an underground train in Brixton when around 21/now an estate agent in North London if he likes...


----------



## Diamond (May 2, 2016)

You lot are off the scale


----------



## Pickman's model (May 2, 2016)

Diamond said:


> I can tell you a lot more detail about my pal - personal trainer/stabbed several times on an underground train in Brixton when around 21/now an estate agent in North London if he likes...


And something socially useful if he doesn't?


----------



## Diamond (May 2, 2016)

I can probably bring up articles, if he is OK with it, if you like.


----------



## Diamond (May 2, 2016)

No - no Jewish problem.  Apart from the Jewish problem...


----------



## belboid (May 2, 2016)

Diamond said:


> You lot are off the scale


are you going to tell us where this almost holocaust denial is?  That's a pretty serious accusation, not one anyone would make up to try to win an argument on the internet.  Well, not unless they were complete and utter scum.  So, where is it?


----------



## Diamond (May 2, 2016)

Oh, and just to be clear, he was not a Jew then.  He was simply a bloke trying to stop a fight and got way out of his depth.


----------



## butchersapron (May 2, 2016)

Diamond said:


> Oh, and just to be clear, he was not a Jew then.  He was simply a bloke trying to stop a fight and got way out of his depth.



Never mind that, you really really need to clarify who your claim of near holocaust denial refers to.


----------



## bimble (May 2, 2016)

Diamond said:


> I can tell you a lot more detail about my pal


no thanks. what are you trying to say, anyway, is it a bit like the other side of this latest from Ken?
Leaving the link complete can't resist. 
Ken Livingstone’s shock claim: I can’t be an anti-Semite because I've romped with Jewish women


----------



## JuanTwoThree (May 2, 2016)

So where to now? All the whowaswhat and whosaidwhat doesn't alter the fact that  the Israelis are now there and the Palestinians are where they are. My use of these terms is just a shorthand, it has no special significance. The support that each faction within these two camps has is also a reality.

You can rake over the ashes of history all you like and I'm not saying you shouldn't but I'm not seeing any way forward. For example, some kind of cantonic secular state in the region isn't going to happen.

Could you stop your discussions for a moment and indulge me with a few solutions that might even partly work? You're all obviously clued up on the background and I'd genuinely be interested.


----------



## J Ed (May 2, 2016)

JuanTwoThree said:


> Could you stop your discussions for a moment and indulge me with a few solutions that might even partly work?



If it were down to me I'd kick Ken Livingstone out of the Labour Party


----------



## stethoscope (May 2, 2016)

bimble said:


> .



Are you seriously offering up something from the scum?

Have a fucking word.


----------



## belboid (May 2, 2016)

JuanTwoThree said:


> So where to now? All the whowaswhat and whosaidwhat doesn't alter the fact that  the Israelis are now there and the Palestinians are where they are. My use of these terms is just a shorthand, it has no special significance. The support that each faction within these two camps has is also a reality.
> 
> You can rake over the ashes of history all you like and I'm not saying you shouldn't but I'm not seeing any way forward. For example, some kind of cantonic secular state in the region isn't going to happen.
> 
> Could you stop your discussions for a moment and indulge me with a few solutions that might even partly work? You're all obviously clued up on the background and I'd genuinely be interested.


A single, secular, state of Palestine, with a full right of return for all those driven out, and their families. Bog standard stuff.


----------



## stethoscope (May 2, 2016)

And what the fuck are you on about Diamond?

Well other than your usual derailing bullshit.


----------



## belboid (May 2, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> And what the fuck are you on about Diamond?
> 
> Well other than your usual derailing bullshit.


about 50mg of Mogadon, I think


----------



## JuanTwoThree (May 2, 2016)

belboid said:


> A single, secular, state of Palestine, with a full right of return for all those driven out, and their families. Bog standard stuff.



Run past me and past probably quite a few other people how that might be achieved. I can't be the only person who thinks that it's intractable.


----------



## butchersapron (May 2, 2016)

JuanTwoThree said:


> So where to now? All the whowaswhat and whosaidwhat doesn't alter the fact that  the Israelis are now there and the Palestinians are where they are. My use of these terms is just a shorthand, it has no special significance. The support that each faction within these two camps has is also a reality.
> 
> You can rake over the ashes of history all you like and I'm not saying you shouldn't but I'm not seeing any way forward. For example, some kind of cantonic secular state in the region isn't going to happen.
> 
> Could you stop your discussions for a moment and indulge me with a few solutions that might even partly work? You're all obviously clued up on the background and I'd genuinely be interested.


Or we could discuss allegations of labour party anti-semitism, if there's any evidence, what motivates the claims or the anti-semitism, what constitutes anti-semitism and why, how it developed and relates to the present day etc rather than waste the thread further on a wild goose chase consisting of competing statements and re-statements of entrenched positions with no real world impact.


----------



## redsquirrel (May 2, 2016)

JuanTwoThree said:


> Run past me and past probably quite a few other people how that might be achieved. I can't be the only person who thinks that it's intractable.


If you really want to discuss that take it to another thread - there's already a load of different strands present on this one. Adding a huge topic like that is going to do nothing for sensible discussion.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 2, 2016)

bimble said:


> no thanks. what are you trying to say, anyway, is it a bit like the other side of this latest from Ken?
> Leaving the link complete can't resist.
> Ken Livingstone’s shock claim: I can’t be an anti-Semite because I've romped with Jewish women


 tell you what, why not read the Hillsborough thread.


----------



## Bernie Gunther (May 2, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> I think a better comparison is finklestein in the days when he was ignored, couldn't get his books and work reviewed, get academic work or find influential publishers, in fact was under an informal boycott and was painted as a holocaust denier and Irving style crackpot. And that was for a very very long time.



Well, that's kind of what I was wondering.

All the so-called rebuttals (of Brenner's books, rather than his journalism or still less Ken's idiotic gloss on it) that I've seen so far look more like political smear jobs or off the cuff dismissals (like Prof Evans above) rather than sober, academic critique.

I'm open to the idea that the latter exists, but I'm beginning to think that I should have found traces of it by now if it does ... (still sifting through PM's link though)

Which pertains to the topic insofar as Brenner is being portrayed as a trot David Irving whose views Ken was accurately representing, which wasn't my impression of his stuff when I read it (admittedly a while back)


----------



## butchersapron (May 2, 2016)

Here's the book.


----------



## Bernie Gunther (May 2, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Here's the book.



Ta.


----------



## Cid (May 2, 2016)

Diamond said:


> Oh, and just to be clear, he was not a Jew then.  He was simply a bloke trying to stop a fight and got way out of his depth.



That's great, you'll do well writing the taglines for his biopic. What the fuck relevance does he have here?


----------



## butchersapron (May 2, 2016)

...and remember everyone going to skim it now, Brenner does not agree with Livingstone that Hitler was sane until 1932/3 and then went mad and became an extreme anti-semite. He merely accurately documents the various agreements and negotiations of _some _organisations and leaders of classical Zionism with various nasty people (not just the nazi state). Livingstone is using Brenner dishonestly as cover for the wild extrapolations that he himself made - and that Brenner is now under attack for.


----------



## Knotted (May 2, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> ...and remember everyone going to skim it now, Brenner does not agree with Livingstone that Hitler was sane until 1932/3 and then went mad and became an extreme anti-semite. He merely accurately documents the various agreements and negotiations with some organisations and leaders of classcial Zionism with various nasty people (not just the nazi state). Livingstone is using Brenner dishonestly as cover for the wild extrapolations that he himself made - and that Brenner is now under attack for.



If I remember rightly Brenner states that Hitler was always opposed to a Jewish state.

Edit here:


> But for Hitler the validity of Zionism only lay in its confirmation that the Jews could never be Germans. In Mein Kampf, he wrote:
> 
> [For while the Zionists try to make the rest of the world believe that the national
> consciousness of the Jew finds its satisfaction in the creation of a Palestinian state,
> ...


----------



## Idris2002 (May 2, 2016)

Someone on Cedar Lounge made the point that "Zionism" was a very heterogeneous movement with a lot of internal ideological diversity, and differing, competing, and even contradictory elements within it.


----------



## belboid (May 2, 2016)

JuanTwoThree said:


> Run past me and past probably quite a few other people how that might be achieved. I can't be the only person who thinks _that it's intractable._


Which would be your response to any 'solution' - which makes it a bit pointless asking, no?


----------



## Idris2002 (May 2, 2016)

*Criticising Israel is not the same as being anti-Jewish*
* Opposition to Israel must not be confused with the evil hatred of Jewish people *
about 9 hours ago
Ronit Lentin, David Landy
 
6

 



The recent calls to expel former London mayor Ken Livingstone from the British Labour Party have created a worrying alliance between those who use accusations of anti-Semitism to silence critics of Israel and those who use them to attack supporters of the Labour leader, Jeremy Corbyn. The calls for his expulsion came after Livingstone said in a BBC interview that Hitler had supported Zionism “before he went mad and ended up killing six million Jews”. The claim itself was clumsy but based on historical fact – Hitler originally sought to expel rather than exterminate European Jews. As part of this, he negotiated the Haavara Agreement with Zionist organisations which allowed some Jews to escape to Palestine with some of their property in return for Zionist opposition to the global boycott of German goods. This was hardly “support for Zionism”, but Livingstone’s critics went further with fellow Labour MPs accusing him of anti-Semitism.

In response, Livingstone cautioned against “confusing criticism of the Israeli government policy with anti-Semitism”, and defended Corbyn, who had been accused of not taking firm enough action against anti-Semitism in the party, which, he said, was part of a smear campaign against the party leader.

Europeans need to face their history of anti-Semitism that culminated in the Nazi Holocaust. Ireland has its own part in that history, the Irish government only admitted 60 Jewish refugees fleeing Nazi persecution between 1933 and 1946. Anti-Semitic sentiments continue – this was clear during the attack on the Hyper Casher supermarket in Paris after the Charlie Hebdo murders.

*Israel vs Jews*
However, supporters of Israel have sought to widen the definition of anti-Semitism to include those who call themselves anti-Zionist and most recently, those who support the Boycott Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) movement. In this, they use an obsolete formulation from the European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia (EUMC) which includes as a possible sign of anti-Semitism: “denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, eg, by claiming that the existence of a state of Israel is a racist endeavour”. The EUMC has since abandoned this wording as it was being used to launch attacks on critics of Israel, rather than to tackle real anti-Semitism.
Such efforts to equate anti-Semitism with anti-Zionism follow the state of Israel in conflating Jews with Zionists, even though not all Jews are Zionists or Israel supporters. Growing numbers of Jewish people in and outside Israel – international groups such as Jewish Voice for Peace and the International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network, as well as Israeli groups such as Boycott from Within – oppose Israeli policies, do not define themselves as Zionists and support the BDS movement. The growing accusations of anti-Semitism against critics of Israel are aimed primarily at discrediting the successful BDS movement.

Israel has announced a $26 million investment in an anti-BDS campaign. Accusing its non-Jewish critics of anti-Semitism and its Jewish critics of being “self-hating Jews” is a central element of this campaign.

*Accusations as *
*weapons*
Returning to the Labour Party, the Jewish Socialist Group has attacked the “weaponising” of accusations of anti-Semitism by forces intent on undermining the leadership of Corbyn. Likewise the group Jews for Boycotting Israeli Goods worries that “the pro-Zionist lobby – Jewish and non-Jewish – deliberately and maliciously seeks to associate Jew-hatred with criticism of Israel in the public mind”, despite the insistence by Corbyn’s team that “anti-Semitism is a vile prejudice that is not permitted in the Labour Party” and its pledge to expel anyone found guilty of it.
The expulsions have taken on the character of a witch hunt. For instance, Jewish activist Tony Greenstein who has long campaigned against anti-Semitism in Palestine solidarity circles, has been accused of anti-Semitism and suspended from the Labour Party. The collection of scalps has emboldened supporters of Israel with the Britain Israel Communications and Research Centre seeking to whip up animosity and tweeting followers to “save your pitch fork for Corbyn”.

Such cynical political acts cheapen the grave charge of anti-Semitism. In this atmosphere where such allegations are used to silence political opponents, it is tempting to reject any and all accusations of anti-Semitism. This too must be guarded against – anti-Semitism needs to be tackled wherever it exists. In this battle, there is an urgent need to resist conflating opposition to Israel with anti-Jewish racism.

David Landy is an assistant professor of sociology and Ronit Lentin is a retired associate professor of sociology at Trinity College Dublin


----------



## Idris2002 (May 2, 2016)

I've cut and pasted the above because Irish Times stuff is usually behind a paywall. I've never heard of Landy before, but I've met Dr. Lentin on and off over the yers - she's Israeli herself. I can't say I agree with much of the piece, also: Ken should be expelled for the reasons DotCommunist outline earlier in this thread.


----------



## oryx (May 2, 2016)

Diamond said:


> We are veering amazingly close to Holocaust denial now


Who is? Someone on here?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 2, 2016)

Bernie Gunther said:


> Well, that's kind of what I was wondering.
> 
> All the so-called rebuttals (of Brenner's books, rather than his journalism or still less Ken's idiotic gloss on it) that I've seen so far look more like political smear jobs or off the cuff dismissals (like Prof Evans above) rather than sober, academic critique.
> 
> ...


i'll start you off with j. rose's 'the myths of zionism' (london: pluto, 2004):

p.221


----------



## Pickman's model (May 2, 2016)

david hirsch, in his 'anti-zionism and anti-semitism: cosmopolitan reflections' states that 

http://research.gold.ac.uk/2061/1/Hirsh_Yale_paper.pdf (p. 74)


----------



## goldenecitrone (May 2, 2016)

Asked some Hasidic jews in Stoke newington what they thought about all this. They said that they weren't bothered as they all vote Tory anyway.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 2, 2016)

in


----------



## Pickman's model (May 2, 2016)




----------



## bimble (May 2, 2016)

You see that bit where it says "they use an obsolete formulation ...which includes as a possible sign of anti-Semitism: “denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, eg, by claiming that the existence of a state of Israel is a racist endeavour”.
I only just learnt the other day that, in 1974, the UN adopted a resolution which stated that  "Zionism is a form of racism and racial discrimination", which was only revoked in 1991. Does that mean the UN was antisemitic? 
United Nations General Assembly Resolution 3379 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## Pickman's model (May 2, 2016)




----------



## Pickman's model (May 2, 2016)

bimble said:


> You see that bit where it says "they use an obsolete formulation ...which includes as a possible sign of anti-Semitism: “denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, eg, by claiming that the existence of a state of Israel is a racist endeavour”.
> I only just learnt the other day that, in 1974, the UN adopted a resolution which stated that  "Zionism is a form of racism and racial discrimination", which was only revoked in 1991. Does that mean the UN was antisemitic?
> United Nations General Assembly Resolution 3379 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


or does it mean the zionists were racist or perceived to be racist?


----------



## JuanTwoThree (May 2, 2016)

I completely accept the criticism that I tried to derail the thread somewhat. Casual anti-semitism, of the "he jewed me out of some money" type, is presumably not the issue (it's important to change attitudes there though, too) because you all seem to be talking about the existence or not of  a confusion/conflation/nexus between anti-semitism and anti-Zionism in the Labour party.  However, to be Labour and even a bit pro-Hamas is to align oneself in part with people who do more than flirt with anti-semitism in terms of their solution, while to be a Socialist friend of Israel is to have another view of the outcome.  So it's about the outcome too. It is though too massive to embark on here.


----------



## Coolfonz (May 2, 2016)

Diamond said:


> Listen - I have a close friend who spent two years converting from a Christian background to Judaism .In fact many Jews to this day would not regard him as a "yid" despite the fact that he was circumcised without any anaesthetic at the age of 31.
> 
> I went to his wedding - it was amazingly lavish.
> 
> ...


What do you mean '"yid'" you cunt? What do you mean "lavish"?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 2, 2016)

journal for the study of anti-semitism, 2:1 (2010)


----------



## mystic pyjamas (May 2, 2016)

Diamond said:


> I can tell you a lot more detail about my pal - personal trainer/stabbed several times on an underground train in Brixton when around 21/now an estate agent in North London if he likes...


I think you're going off  topic now.
 Not relevant to thread.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 2, 2016)

Diamond said:


> And if my Muslim gf, who was not available, had attended you would have found it very confusing.


tbh i find your repeated wheeling out of this unfortunate woman confusing


----------



## Idris2002 (May 2, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> tbh i find your repeated wheeling out of this unfortunate woman confusing


It's probably the only time she sees daylight.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 2, 2016)




----------



## Bernie Gunther (May 2, 2016)

Thanks for that stuff Pickmans.

I'd say that it's pretty clear that Brenner's account has a lot more respect for evidence than some (but not all) of his critics are giving him credit for.

edited to add: what some of the critical response seems to do is focus on the use people like Ken are making of his stuff and argue with simplistic positions based on that.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 2, 2016)

p. 275

p. 39


----------



## bi0boy (May 2, 2016)

The Left’s problem with Anti-Semitism


----------



## Idris2002 (May 2, 2016)

Martin Luther? Jewish Friendly? What fuckery is this?


----------



## Knotted (May 2, 2016)

Soft Zionists (two state solution types) are pushing very hard on this. They want to see opposition to their favoured solution to be placed beyond the pale. I don't think they realise that a lot of people support two states for pragmatic reasons rather than moralistic reasons. I predict overreach.


----------



## DotCommunist (May 2, 2016)

so because nobody was biting Diamonds 'the Left are all antisemites' lines he went _there_ with the 'holocaust-deniers' line? ugh.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 2, 2016)

bi0boy said:


> The Left’s problem with Anti-Semitism


i was going to put this as a response:

_Frankly Israel should be destroyed. It's been a foul state from its inception, provoking the Six Day War through water grabs earlier in the 1960s, Sabra, Shatila, and so on and so forth to the various assaults on Gaza and the illegal settlements in the West Bank. Its likely future trajectory is most likely more of the same with the same appalling treatment being meted out to the Palestinians.

Yes, Israel should be destroyed. But this doesn't mean 'Jews into the sea'. It means that either a single new polity encompassing the current territory of Israel and the Occupied Territories for all residents of Palestine should be founded; or the foundation of two states, as per resolution 242. _


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 2, 2016)

bimble said:


> Err, yes. My post above was the bleakest kind of joke. If it was just Hitler all by himself, 'going mental', cos he didn't get into art college, it might not have quite made the headlines the way it did in the end. So yeah, he needed a certain amount of backup, like say a few centuries of anti-jew suspicion and loathing amongst the wider population, something like that.



The problem with that thesis is that German anti-Semitism - as recorded in the 50-60 years previous to the _Third Reich_ - has nowhere near the vigour and rapacity of that propagated by the Nazi regime. Most scholars from Bracher-onward deal with the change from personal and individual anti-Semitism, and its change into an institutionalised anti-Semitism under Nazi and right influence.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 2, 2016)

bimble said:


> Impressive, VP: You appear to construe the whole final solution thing as basically a rational economic decision, nothing personal like, nothing inherently connected with actual jew-hatred being an issue at the time. In a way, Hitler wasn't really an antisemite as such?



Yes, because that's what I've said, isn't it, _du scheissekopf_?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 2, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Yes, because that's what I've said, isn't it, _du scheissekopf_?


careful now, she'll say you're goysplaining


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 2, 2016)

andysays said:


> I realise this isn't quite what you're referring to, and maybe this is going off at a tangent, but it's surely not simply about whether Hitler personally was an anti-semite and/or "mental", or when he personally stepped over some line from one thing to another.
> 
> If Hitler's undoubted personal anti-semitism hadn't had a wider resonance with a far greater number of people, then the scapegoating of Jews which led eventually to the Final Solution wouldn't have been successful. Whether or not it was a rational *economic* decision (and I don't think VP is suggesting it can be reduced to that alone), there's a sense in which it was a rational *political* tactic from the point of view of those who used it.



Thing is, if you read political commentary from the foundation of Germany through to Hitler-time, anti-Semitism is *not* an ever-present phenomenon, but something that got dusted down in economic downturns, when the _Kaiser_ and his ministers needed someone to blame. It's also worth noting that at the same time, most Slavs (excepting sometimes the southern Slavs, whom both the _Second Reich_ and the Austro-Hungarian empire attempted to cultivate/neutralise over that period) where treated with much the same degree of opprobrium.
With regard to the economics of the genocide of the Jews, the "rational" element was always "we can expropriate these Jews, these people who have accumulated much in Europe, we can strip them unto their very deaths, or we can expropriate the Slavs, mostly still peasants with very little in the way of money with which we can fund our war machine". Of course it wasn't the only motivation for liquidation, but it served the purposes of a state that had very little in the way of hard currency reserves, to expropriate bank accounts, land, personal possessions etc, and what served even better was to ensure the non-likelihood of someone filing a claim post-war, especially when many engaged in the decision-making process were personally enriching themselves through the same channels as the state.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 2, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> Good. He's filthy opportunist.



You're still sore that he didn't buy you a pint, aren't you?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 2, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Thing is, if you read political commentary from the foundation of Germany through to Hitler-time, anti-Semitism is *not* an ever-present phenomenon, but something that got dusted down in economic downturns, when the _Kaiser_ and his ministers needed someone to blame. It's also worth noting that at the same time, most Slavs (excepting sometimes the southern Slavs, whom both the _Second Reich_ and the Austro-Hungarian empire attempted to cultivate/neutralise over that period) where treated with much the same degree of opprobrium.
> With regard to the economics of the genocide of the Jews, the "rational" element was always "we can expropriate these Jews, these people who have accumulated much in Europe, we can strip them unto their very deaths, or we can expropriate the Slavs, mostly still peasants with very little in the way of money with which we can fund our war machine". Of course it wasn't the only motivation for liquidation, but it served the purposes of a state that had very little in the way of hard currency reserves, to expropriate bank accounts, land, personal possessions etc, and what served even better was to ensure the non-likelihood of someone filing a claim post-war, especially when many engaged in the decision-making process were personally enriching themselves through the same channels as the state.


further to this, the attention which Karl Lueger - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia has received may be due to the relative absence of anti-semitic feeling elsewhere.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 2, 2016)

Diamond said:


> We are veering amazingly close to Holocaust denial now



Fuck me, but you're an idiot.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 2, 2016)

Diamond said:


> Listen - I have a close friend who spent two years converting from a Christian background to Judaism .In fact many Jews to this day would not regard him as a "yid" despite the fact that he was circumcised without any anaesthetic at the age of 31.
> 
> I went to his wedding - it was amazingly lavish.
> 
> ...



That's nice for you, dear.


----------



## two sheds (May 2, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Fuck me, but you're an idiot.



It comes from mixing with all his anti-semitic mates at uni.


----------



## DrRingDing (May 2, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> You're still sore that he didn't buy you a pint, aren't you?



I have some standards you know.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 2, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Fuck me, but you're an idiot.


it is astounding that 16 years after joining his posting is worse than when he was a teenager.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 2, 2016)

Diamond said:


> This is ridiculous - now I'm making up friends in order to defend Judaism?
> 
> Have a word with yourselves.



I'll have FOUR words with myself.

"Diamond is a twat".


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 2, 2016)

Diamond said:


> You lot are off the scale



Whereas you appear to be on the illegals.


----------



## CNT36 (May 2, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> it is astounding that 16 years after joining his posting is worse than when he was a teenager.


Must be all that time spent studying law.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 2, 2016)

JuanTwoThree said:


> So where to now? All the whowaswhat and whosaidwhat doesn't alter the fact that  the Israelis are now there and the Palestinians are where they are. My use of these terms is just a shorthand, it has no special significance. The support that each faction within these two camps has is also a reality.
> 
> You can rake over the ashes of history all you like and I'm not saying you shouldn't but I'm not seeing any way forward. For example, some kind of cantonic secular state in the region isn't going to happen.
> 
> Could you stop your discussions for a moment and indulge me with a few solutions that might even partly work? You're all obviously clued up on the background and I'd genuinely be interested.



There is *NO* simple, unitary solution, unless you're prepared to have UN peacekeepers actually fighting a war with the state of Israel.
All those much-vaunted "peace processes", all they did was facilitate land-grabs and murder.

Expulsion of either side won't work, and a two-state solution that doesn't return the '67 borders and enable the right of return and full Palestinian autonomy won't, either.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 2, 2016)

belboid said:


> A single, secular, state of Palestine, with a full right of return for all those driven out, and their families. Bog standard stuff.



It's the obvious solution, which is why it'll never be allowed to happen.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 2, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> There is *NO* simple, unitary solution, unless you're prepared to have UN peacekeepers actually fighting a war with the state of Israel.
> All those much-vaunted "peace processes", all they did was facilitate land-grabs and murder.
> 
> Expulsion of either side won't work, and a two-state solution that doesn't return the '67 borders and enable the right of return and full Palestinian autonomy won't, either.


how abouts an expulsion of both sides?


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 2, 2016)

Idris2002 said:


> Someone on Cedar Lounge made the point that "Zionism" was a very heterogeneous movement with a lot of internal ideological diversity, and differing, competing, and even contradictory elements within it.



Some of us have been making that point on here for over a decade.


----------



## treelover (May 2, 2016)

i have just been reported to FB and blocked,  I disagreed with the fanatics on JC4PM on this issue and as I don't use my real name, they reported me as a troll, this is the sort of people the left partly comprises of now.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 2, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> how abouts an expulsion of both sides?


I'd reiterate my previous point that a majority of Jewish Israeli citizens have dual passports, so have somewhere to go, whereas the Palestinians don't - and we know that Israel's Arab neighbours don't want even more rebellious, secularised Palestinians in their countries than they already have.
As ever, as a people the Palestinians are trapped between a bigger rock, and a harder place, than their Israeli counterparts.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 2, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> I'd reiterate my previous point that a majority of Jewish Israeli citizens have dual passports, so have somewhere to go, whereas the Palestinians don't - and we know that Israel's Arab neighbours don't want even more rebellious, secularised Palestinians in their countries than they already have.
> As ever, as a people the Palestinians are trapped between a bigger rock, and a harder place, than their Israeli counterparts.


yeh. well. my proposal is, as i've mentioned before, that the people who could make the desert bloom could have a pop at working the same sort of magic in birobidzhan. while the palestinians could be driven from the west bank and gaza strip into what is currently the zionist entity.


----------



## Idris2002 (May 2, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Some of us have been making that point on here for over a decade.


First with the late results.


----------



## treelover (May 2, 2016)

belboid said:


> A single, secular, state of Palestine, with a full right of return for all those driven out, and their families. Bog standard stuff.



bog standard for whom?, and what would the non secular Hamas have to say about that?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (May 2, 2016)

belboid said:


> A single, secular, state of Palestine, with a full right of return for all those driven out, and their families. Bog standard stuff.


A single secular state is the only solution. 

The two-state solution is what we have now, effectively - ie no solution at all, and never can be given the unequal power relations involved. That's where the comparison with apartheid is valid - the idea of an independent West Bank or Gaza Strip is every bit as much of a joke as the idea of independent bantustans. 

Where it then becomes difficult is the idea of full right of return for all those driven out. That's where difficult compromise is going to be needed - Palestinians and Israelis are going to have to coexist, and some of the land taken is not going to be given back. There is no getting around the fact that two groups claim the same land.

Easy to diagnose, hard to be optimistic about any cure, though. Even once a process towards peace is started, it will take generations to resolve.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 2, 2016)

treelover said:


> bog standard for whom?, and what would the non secular Hamas have to say about that?



HAMAS would go with "the will of the people", because they're well-aware that it's easier to change opinion from within, than to force it.


----------



## agricola (May 2, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> HAMAS would go with "the will of the people", because they're well-aware that it's easier to change opinion from within, than to force it.



The rationale for Hamas existing would largely disappear if there were substantive and honest negotiations, just as the rationale for Netanyahu would.


----------



## Idris2002 (May 2, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> A single secular state is the only solution.
> 
> The two-state solution is what we have now, effectively - ie no solution at all, and never can be given the unequal power relations involved. That's where the comparison with apartheid is valid - the idea of an independent West Bank or Gaza Strip is every bit as much of a joke as the idea of independent bantustans.
> 
> ...


Given how small the territory that once was Mandate Palestine is, and given how the whole thing sits on one single water source, any 'two state solution' would have to be a 'divorce with bed rights' arrangement.

It would also have to involve some considerable political creativity, which would guarantee the human rights and collective and individual security of everyone in that territory, Israeli and Pal alike. None of the proposals for one or two state solutions that I've seen have shown anything like the level of creativity needed.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (May 2, 2016)

Idris2002 said:


> Given how small the territory that once was Mandate Palestine is, and given how the whole thing sits on one single water source, any 'two state solution' would have to be a 'divorce with bed rights' arrangement.
> 
> It would also have to involve some considerable political creativity, which would guarantee the human rights and collective and individual security of everyone in that territory, Israeli and Pal alike. None of the proposals for one or two state solutions that I've seen have shown anything like the level of creativity needed.


Agreed. I think the only thing you can say with certainty really is that a genuine solution would involve the two sides negotiating an agreement that includes concessions that would sit badly with many or most of their people. It's hard to be optimistic tbh - I wouldn't fancy the life-expectancy chances of the leaders involved in such a deal.


----------



## cantsin (May 2, 2016)

fair bit of detail re: various alleged LP anti semites etc : 

How Israel lobby manufactured UK Labour Party's anti-Semitism crisis


----------



## Idris2002 (May 2, 2016)

cantsin said:


> fair bit of detail re: various alleged LP anti semites etc :
> 
> How Israel lobby manufactured UK Labour Party's anti-Semitism crisis


Not really a source you could give to someone who was disappointed and disturbed by all this.


----------



## cantsin (May 2, 2016)

Idris2002 said:


> Not really a source you could give to someone who was disappointed and disturbed by all this.



wont pretend to know much about EI -  that piece seems heavily researched, lots of detail / quotes / sources etc - (also don't think 'Israel Lobby' particularly helpful phrasing at present) but wld be interested if you have more info etc about it ? Or any other reason for questioning the source ?


----------



## mk12 (May 2, 2016)

More councillors have been suspended from the LP over social media posts about Israel. One tweeted Yossi Benayoun, an Israeli footballer, saying 'you and your country doing the same thing that hitler did to your race in ww2'.

Labour suspends three councillors over Israel comments
Labour suspends three councillors over Israel comments - BBC News


----------



## DrRingDing (May 2, 2016)

treelover said:


> bog standard for whom?, and what would the non secular Hamas have to say about that?



Hamas works along side the likes of the PFLP. Hamas is not ISIS.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (May 2, 2016)

Pretty much the entire PLP, including most the shadow cabinet, are joining in the smearing of their own party over this. I guess this sort of insanity was inevitable given the huge chasm between Corbyn and the utterly useless careerists he's 'leading'. I can't think of the last time a party sabotaged itself in the run up to an election though. It's bizarre and depressing.


----------



## DrRingDing (May 2, 2016)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Pretty much the entire PLP, including most the shadow cabinet, are joining in the smearing of their own party over this. I guess this sort of insanity was inevitable given the huge chasm between Corbyn and the utterly useless careerists he's 'leading'. I can't think of the last time a party sabotaged itself in the run up to an election though. It's bizarre and depressing.



Will this have a large impact on voting? I'm not convinced it will.


----------



## Bernie Gunther (May 2, 2016)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Pretty much the entire PLP, including most the shadow cabinet, are joining in the smearing of their own party over this. I guess this sort of insanity was inevitable given the huge chasm between Corbyn and the utterly useless careerists he's 'leading'. I can't think of the last time a party sabotaged itself in the run up to an election though. It's bizarre and depressing.



Around racial wedge issues too ...


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 2, 2016)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Pretty much the entire PLP, including most the shadow cabinet, are joining in the smearing of their own party over this. I guess this sort of insanity was inevitable given the huge chasm between Corbyn and the utterly useless careerists he's 'leading'. I can't think of the last time a party sabotaged itself in the run up to an election though. It's bizarre and depressing.



Most of the PLP _Maquis_ - talk about self-aggrandisement! - are either members of LFoI, or are ideological sympathisers, so it's not particularly bizarre that they'd leap at the chance to further their own agendas, even if it is at the expense of the national party and their constituencies.

It *IS* depressing, though.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 2, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> Will this have a large impact on voting? I'm not convinced it will.



Personally, I'm hoping that the opportunism currently on display - not just by the likes of Mann or Streeting, but also by those who fancy themselves as _eminences grise_ like Cooper and Umunna - will have an impact on their mostly "safe seat" majorities, like happened with Balls.


----------



## Bernie Gunther (May 2, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Most of the PLP _Maquis_ - talk about self-aggrandisement! - are either members of LFoI, or are ideological sympathisers, so it's not particularly bizarre that they'd leap at the chance to further their own agendas, even if it is at the expense of the national party and their constituencies.
> 
> It *IS* depressing, though.



It's really fucking depressing, at a time when we need effective opposition to e.g. NHS privatisation and all the rest of the class warfare the government is pushing, to see such agendas dominating the PLP against the interests of the majority of citizens.


----------



## free spirit (May 2, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> Will this have a large impact on voting? I'm not convinced it will.


it means Labour are going to struggle to be getting their message across in these last few days before the election because all the air time is taken up by this stuff.


----------



## DrRingDing (May 2, 2016)

free spirit said:


> it means Labour are going to struggle to be getting their message across in these last few days before the election because all the air time is taken up by this stuff.



I would be interested in some stats on how floating voters intended to vote before this nonsense and how they will vote now.


----------



## Greasy Boiler (May 2, 2016)

The whole thing just seems so cynically timed and disingenuous. Politics at its grubbiest.


----------



## DrRingDing (May 2, 2016)

Greasy Boiler said:


> The whole thing just seems so cynically timed and disingenuous. Politics at its grubbiest.



Desperate isnt it? Hopefully it will backfire.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (May 2, 2016)

Bernie Gunther said:


> It's really fucking depressing, at a time when we need effective opposition to e.g. NHS privatisation and all the rest of the class warfare the government is pushing, to see such agendas dominating the PLP against the interests of the majority of citizens.


This is the group that needed to be got rid of, though. There was never going to be a point where they magically disappeared; Corbyn being elected wasn't going to do that. If he hadn't been, they'd just be offering support to those programmes right now, tacit or explicit.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 2, 2016)

Bernie Gunther said:


> It's really fucking depressing, at a time when we need effective opposition to e.g. NHS privatisation and all the rest of the class warfare the government is pushing, to see such agendas dominating the PLP against the interests of the majority of citizens.


Yeh. But the PLP has for years been a great disappointment


----------



## Diamond (May 2, 2016)

JuanTwoThree said:


> I completely accept the criticism that I tried to derail the thread somewhat. Casual anti-semitism, of the "he jewed me out of some money" type, is presumably not the issue (it's important to change attitudes there though, too) because you all seem to be talking about the existence or not of  a confusion/conflation/nexus between anti-semitism and anti-Zionism in the Labour party.  However, to be Labour and even a bit pro-Hamas is to align oneself in part with people who do more than flirt with anti-semitism in terms of their solution, while to be a Socialist friend of Israel is to have another view of the outcome.  So it's about the outcome too. It is though too massive to embark on here.



There is no such thing as "casual anti-semitism", in the same way as there is no such thing as "casual islamophobia" or "casual sexism"


----------



## free spirit (May 2, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> I would be interested in some stats on how floating voters intended to vote before this nonsense and how they will vote now.


the real question can never be answered - how would floating voters have voted at the election had this not happened with most of Labour's coms efforts in the last 10 days before the election dedicated to this issue rather than the communications plan they'd have had in place for this period.

They were starting to do pretty well before all this hit, I doubt that the timing is a coincidence. Those posts had sat there on facebook for 2 years and just happen to have been discovered right at the crucial point to completely change the media narrative and derail Labour's big push before the election... nah, someone sat on them until the time was right to put something concrete to the months of press crap about a growing anti-semitism issue for Labour IMO.


----------



## Coolfonz (May 2, 2016)

Diamond said:


> There is no such thing as "casual anti-semitism", in the same way as there is no such thing as "casual islamophobia" or "casual sexism"


pot kettle black. says the bloke who used the word `yid` and talked about jews having `lavish` weddings, everything an anti-semite would hate.


----------



## Diamond (May 2, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> What do you mean '"yid'" you cunt? What do you mean "lavish"?



Yid is how a lot of Jews in North London would describe themselves (reclaiming prejudicial language etc...)

Lavish because it was held here - Luxury London Hotels, Book 5 Star Hotels in High Holborn, Covent Garden | Rosewood London - and was huge.


----------



## William of Walworth (May 2, 2016)

WRF to the above from free spirit : I haven't properly managed to work out whether the 'someone' who sat on this stuff previously and then timed its' release so well, was Lynton Crosby,or John Mann,  or either/any of their  friends


----------



## Diamond (May 2, 2016)

Yet to hear how Richard Evans is dodgy yet also


----------



## Coolfonz (May 2, 2016)

Fuck off you anti-semitic cunthole. Why can this guy use abusive words about jews and not get banned? What's with that? Then lay on jew hating bullshit about "lavish" weddings, the whole flash jew trope.


----------



## butchersapron (May 2, 2016)

I think no one should reply to Diamond from this point on unless it's to demand that he clarify who he believes is approaching holocaust denial - and where. 

Ignore his irrelevant little memories etc. We need to get this established.


----------



## Diamond (May 2, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> Fuck off you anti-semitic cunthole. Why can this guy use abusive words about jews and not get banned? What's with that? Then lay on jew hating bullshit about "lavish" weddings, the whole flash jew trope.



That was the point I was making!

God, you are thick.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 2, 2016)

Diamond said:


> Yid is how a lot of Jews in North London would describe themselves (reclaiming prejudicial language etc...)
> 
> Lavish because it was held here - Luxury London Hotels, Book 5 Star Hotels in High Holborn, Covent Garden | Rosewood London - and was huge.


Yeh so you wander round calling people yids despite not being jewish to help n London jews reclaim prejudicial language. Very big of you


----------



## redsquirrel (May 2, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> I think no one should reply to Diamond from this point on unless it's to demand that he clarify who he believes is approaching holocaust denial - and where.
> 
> Ignore his irrelevant little memories etc. We need to get this established.


Agreed this is paramount


----------



## Pickman's model (May 2, 2016)

Diamond said:


> That was the point I was making!
> 
> God, you are thick.


This holocaust denial, where is it then?


----------



## Diamond (May 2, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh so you wander round calling people yids despite not being jewish to help n London jews reclaim prejudicial language. Very big of you



_I'm _not calling people yids.

The level of misrepresentation on this thread is truly staggering.


----------



## Diamond (May 2, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> This holocaust denial, where is it then?



Where are Richard Evans' dodgy references and inferences?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 2, 2016)

Diamond said:


> _I'm _not calling people yids.
> 
> The level of misrepresentation on this thread is truly staggering.


Very much so, like your claim about holocaust denial. Where is it being approached?


----------



## Diamond (May 2, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Very much so, like your claim about holocaust denial. Where is it being approached?



See above


----------



## Pickman's model (May 2, 2016)

Diamond said:


> Where are Richard Evans' dodgy references and inferences?


Go on, you first


----------



## Pickman's model (May 2, 2016)

Diamond said:


> See above


Post a link then


----------



## Diamond (May 2, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Go on, you first



You made that direct assertion.

Evidence it.


----------



## Diamond (May 2, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> More likely to find dodgy referencing and inferences drawn



For the hard of thinking


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 2, 2016)

Bernie Gunther said:


> It's really fucking depressing, at a time when we need effective opposition to e.g. NHS privatisation and all the rest of the class warfare the government is pushing, to see such agendas dominating the PLP against the interests of the majority of citizens.



So many Labour and "Liberal Democrat" MPs nowadays are positioned firmly on "their" side - the side of power - except for a couple of weeks every five years, when they pretend to be of and for "the people". At least your MP is a bit original in his right-wingness. Mine is just a post-Blair Blairite opportunist who likes the idea of power without much responsibility, and whose grandad had Kim Philby run rings around him.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 2, 2016)

Diamond said:


> For the hard of thinking


You stupid fucking twat  you think I was talking about Richard Evans when I was talking about Lenni brenner


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 2, 2016)

FridgeMagnet said:


> This is the group that needed to be got rid of, though. There was never going to be a point where they magically disappeared; Corbyn being elected wasn't going to do that. If he hadn't been, they'd just be offering support to those programmes right now, tacit or explicit.



You say "got rid of", I say "liquidated". Po-tay-to, po-tah-to.


----------



## Diamond (May 2, 2016)

For clarity, I am merely suggesting that criticism of the most revered scholar of the Holocaust in this country, Sir Richard Evans, as indulging in dodgy referencing and dodgy inferences is veering close to Holocaust denial.

This is not difficult stuff.


----------



## Diamond (May 2, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> You stupid fucking twat  you think I was talking about Richard Evans when I was talking about Lenni brenner



Bollocks you were.

Trying to rewrite history here, which is ironic.


----------



## redsquirrel (May 2, 2016)

Diamond said:


> For the hard of thinking


Lets be absolutely clear about this. You're claiming that PM is the person "veering towards holocaust denial" when he made that statement in post #1012?

EDIT: ok seen the post above.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 2, 2016)

Diamond said:


> Yid is how a lot of Jews in North London would describe themselves (reclaiming prejudicial language etc...)



"Yid" is how *some* north London Jews - those descended from eastern European Yiddish-speakers, rather than _Sephardim_ or _Mizrahim_ - would describe themselves. Making an assumption that "lots" of NL Jews are Yiddish-speakers is as foolish as confusing Judaism (of whichever sect) with Jewish identity.


----------



## butchersapron (May 2, 2016)

Diamond said:


> For clarity, I am merely suggesting that criticism of the most revered scholar of the Holocaust in this country, Sir Richard Evans, as indulging in dodgy referencing and dodgy inferences is veering close to Holocaust denial.
> 
> This is not difficult stuff.


Evans is not the most revered scholar of the holocaust in this country - he's not even a holocaust specialist. And if criticisms of him are veering on holocaust denial then you've just accused almost the entirety of scholars of the nazi period, of modern german history, of WW2, of anti-semitism etc of pretty much being holocaust deniers - and also the process by which academic knowledge is reached/produced. Please don't be such a silly blowhard.


----------



## Diamond (May 2, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> "Yid" is how *some* north London Jews - those descended from eastern European Yiddish-speakers, rather than _Sephardim_ or _Mizrahim_ - would describe themselves. Making an assumption that "lots" of NL Jews are Yiddish-speakers is as foolish as confusing Judaism (of whichever sect) with Jewish identity.



It is how lots of my mate's new family would describe themselves, largely in an ironic fashion.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 2, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh so you wander round calling people yids despite not being jewish to help n London jews reclaim prejudicial language. Very big of you



I have licence to use the term, and yet don't. Neither do many NL Jews. There are probably more Gentile  THFC supporters who refer to themselves as Yids, than there are actual Jews in the UK doing so. It's a dying term, just as Yiddish is a dying language in British Jewry.


----------



## Diamond (May 2, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Evans is not the most revered scholar of the holocaust in this country - he's not even a holocaust specialist. And if criticisms of him are veering on holocaust denial then you've just accused almost the entirety of scholars of the nazi period, of modern german history, of WW2, of anti-semitism etc of pretty much being holocaust deniers - and also the process by which academic knowledge is reached/produced. Please don't be such a silly blowhard.



OK - who would you prefer and why does questioning Evans' methodology be ignored?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 2, 2016)

Diamond said:


> Bollocks you were.
> 
> Trying to rewrite history here, which is ironic.


You stupid fucking twat  Bernie Gunther was asking if lb relied on forgeries, and I replied more likely to fuck himself with poor referencing. I wasn't referring to Richard Evans.


----------



## butchersapron (May 2, 2016)

Diamond said:


> OK - who would you prefer and why does questioning Evans' methodology be ignored?


Not interested in you. And what?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 2, 2016)

Diamond said:


> OK - who would you prefer and why does questioning Evans' methodology be ignored?


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 2, 2016)

Diamond said:


> For clarity, I am merely suggesting that criticism of the most revered scholar of the Holocaust in this country, Sir Richard Evans, as indulging in dodgy referencing and dodgy inferences is veering close to Holocaust denial.
> 
> This is not difficult stuff.



 
Fuck me sideways with a JCB, then raise the bucket!


Richard Evans is *possibly* the foremost British scholar of 20th century European fascism, but he's far from "the most revered scholar of the Holocaust in this country". The holocaust (small "h" unless you're an idiot exceptionalist) is *not* his primary field, it's a sidebar.


----------



## Diamond (May 2, 2016)

The self-appointed guardians of this forum in full-flow here


----------



## redsquirrel (May 2, 2016)

I think this shows Diamond for exactly that type of slime that he is (if anybody had any doubt). To equate something close to holocaust denial to criticising an individual historian would be ludicrous if it wasn't so disgusting. To use allegations of holocaust denial based on absolute nothing as a tool to attack someone(s) makes him scum.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 2, 2016)

Diamond said:


> It is how lots of my mate's new family would describe themselves, largely in an ironic fashion.



"Lots" of your mate's new family do not - however legend and myth like to exaggerate the size and clannishness of Jewish families - comprise "a lot of Jews in North London".


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 2, 2016)

Diamond said:


> The self-appointed guardians of this forum in full-flow here



Do fuck off. If you spout arrant bollocks - and you've proven yourself to spout a lot, given the howlers you've made on this thread - then you should expect to get pulled up. That isn't any form of guardianship, it's better-informed people than you, setting you straight.


----------



## Diamond (May 2, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Do fuck off. If you spout arrant bollocks - and you've proven yourself to spout a lot, given the howlers you've made on this thread - then you should expect to get pulled up. That isn't any form of guardianship, it's better-informed people than you, setting you straight.



"Arrant bollocks" appears to constitute providing a different opinion.

So much plurality here...


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 2, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> I think this shows Diamond for exactly that type of slime that he is (if anybody had any doubt). To equate something close to holocaust denial to criticising an individual historian would be ludicrous if it wasn't so disgusting. To use allegations of holocaust denial based on absolute nothing as a tool to attack someone(s) makes him scum.



So, he's a typical lawyer, then? Twisting the facts to fit the outcome he'd like?


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 2, 2016)

Diamond said:


> "Arrant bollocks" appears to constitute providing a different opinion.
> 
> So much plurality here...



That Judaism and Jewishness are two different things - with some overlap for some Jews - is a fact, not an opinion.
That Richard Evans is *not* a holocaust scholar, but rather an expert on fascism, is a fact, not an opinion.
That Pickman's model was referring to Lenni Brenner - rather than Richard Evans - is a fact, not an opinion. 

You're not only digging yourself a pit to stand in, you're pulling the dirt in on top of yourself.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (May 2, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> I think no one should reply to Diamond from this point on unless it's to demand that he clarify who he believes is approaching holocaust denial - and where.
> 
> Ignore his irrelevant little memories etc. We need to get this established.



A good general rule.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 2, 2016)

Diamond said:


> For clarity, I am merely suggesting that criticism of the most revered scholar of the Holocaust in this country, Sir Richard Evans, as indulging in dodgy referencing and dodgy inferences is veering close to Holocaust denial.
> 
> This is not difficult stuff.


Martin Gilbert a more revered historian of the Holocaust than richard Evans you ignorant twat


----------



## Pickman's model (May 2, 2016)

Diamond said:


> For clarity, I am merely suggesting that criticism of the most revered scholar of the Holocaust in this country, Sir Richard Evans, as indulging in dodgy referencing and dodgy inferences is veering close to Holocaust denial.
> 
> This is not difficult stuff.


And tbh even if I did accuse re of dodgy referencing it's nowhere near holocaust denial


----------



## mk12 (May 2, 2016)

I've just read through the last few pages of this thread. Isn't diamond supposed to be a lawyer? How the fuck did that happen?!


----------



## Pickman's model (May 2, 2016)

mk12 said:


> I've just read through the last few pages of this thread. Isn't diamond supposed to be a lawyer? How the fuck did that happen?!


He's only practicing


----------



## Diamond (May 2, 2016)

This is all very cosy, isn't it?

But as I'm "slime" according to one of your coterie, maybe I should just slither off.


----------



## redsquirrel (May 2, 2016)

If you don't intend to offer an apology to PM (and the rest of the posters on this thread) then please do.


----------



## J Ed (May 2, 2016)

I still haven't seen anyone or any evidence of anyone even alluding to holocaust denial


----------



## Bernie Gunther (May 3, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> You stupid fucking twat  Bernie Gunther was asking if lb relied on forgeries, and I replied more likely to fuck himself with poor referencing. I wasn't referring to Richard Evans.



That's certainly how I read your response.

As far as I know the only person on this thread questioning Richard Evans competence as a historian is Diamond, but maybe he mixed him up with Ken Livingstone, or Donald Duck or something.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 3, 2016)

Bernie Gunther said:


> That's certainly how I read your response.
> 
> As far as I know the only person on this thread questioning Richard Evans competence is Diamond, but maybe he mixed him up with Ken Livingstone as a historian, or Donald Duck or something.


perhaps diamond should stick to posting about things he knows about


----------



## William of Walworth (May 3, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> perhaps diamond should stick to posting about things he knows about



Retire from Urban, you mean?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 3, 2016)

William of Walworth said:


> Retire from Urban, you mean?


Just so


----------



## JuanTwoThree (May 3, 2016)

Diamond said:


> There is no such thing as "casual anti-semitism", in the same way as there is no such thing as "casual islamophobia" or "casual sexism"



I'll dignify your flailing around to attack pretty much anything anything that comes into range with a reply: GTMF

 "Casual anti-semitism" is a term you'll find used by a rabbi writing in The Independent and by a writer about her experience of being Jewish in The Statesman (unless I've got the rags mixed up). It's to be found in books about Wyndham Lewis's anti-semitism and in numerous other places. If you don't mind I'll let countless uses of the term rather than your linguistic moral guardianship be my guiding light. 

Since you like anecdotes I'll tell you one. A friend of mine (who I really haven't invented) was a Brockley boy who like others in the early 70s used the N word without giving it much thought. When it was pointed out to him that the word really wasn't acceptable he weaned himself off using it. I would say that judging by his politics,  his  friends and girl friends that he didn't and doesn't have many racist bones in his body: I won't say "doesn't have any" to be on the safe side. His partner is Xhosa and his adopted children are mixed-race. He's almost too convenient for my purposes! 

His using n----r was text-book 'casual racism'. When people who were otherwise politically aware called "chicks to the front" during demos they were being 'casual sexists'. It's a thing: offending without setting out to offend.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 3, 2016)

treelover said:


> i have just been reported to FB and blocked,  I disagreed with the fanatics on JC4PM on this issue and as I don't use my real name, they reported me as a troll, this is the sort of people the left partly comprises of now.


Report you as a troll? What a surprise.


----------



## bimble (May 3, 2016)

Antisemitism exists and it stinks, left/right/ casual/dressed up as something else, whatever. 
If you choose to call it out and make a fuss about it only when its useful for your political cause then you're not helping, just cynically exploiting the people you're pretending to defend. Equally though if you dismiss it or turn a blind eye for the same expedient political reasons, you can likewise fuck off. I think both have been going on and both are equally depressing.


----------



## redsquirrel (May 3, 2016)

bimble said:


> Antisemitism exists and it stinks, left/right/ casual/dressed up as something else, whatever.
> If you choose to call it out and make a fuss about it only when its useful for your political cause then you're not helping, just cynically exploiting the people you're pretending to defend. Equally though if you dismiss it or turn a blind eye for the same expedient political reasons, you can likewise fuck off.* I think both have been going on and both are equally depressing.*


Are you alleging that this is occurring on this thread/U75?


----------



## Diamond (May 3, 2016)

JuanTwoThree said:


> I'll dignify your flailing around to attack pretty much anything anything that comes into range with a reply: GTMF
> 
> "Casual anti-semitism" is a term you'll find used by a rabbi writing in The Independent and by a writer about her experience of being Jewish in The Statesman (unless I've got the rags mixed up). It's to be found in books about Wyndham Lewis's anti-semitism and in numerous other places. If you don't mind I'll let countless uses of the term rather than your linguistic moral guardianship be my guiding light.
> 
> ...



Are you implying that I have invented people?


----------



## Diamond (May 3, 2016)

"Casual anti-semitism" - what a ridiculous idea...


----------



## Diamond (May 3, 2016)

"Oh, I don't really want to isolate you and criticise you, it's all just a laugh"


----------



## butchersapron (May 3, 2016)

Great, yet another Diamond week.


----------



## belboid (May 3, 2016)

Diamond said:


> Are you implying that I have invented people?


Yes


----------



## Pickman's model (May 3, 2016)

Diamond said:


> Are you implying that I have invented people?


i thought he came on and plain said that, no implying involved.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 3, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Great, yet another Diamond week.


the term 'diamond geezer' no longer means 'a very decent man'.


----------



## CNT36 (May 3, 2016)

Diamond said:


> "Casual anti-semitism" - what a ridiculous idea...


Only this whole Diamond persona.


----------



## Diamond (May 3, 2016)

OK - fuck it.  I was trying to provide a bit of colour by talking about people I know.

If you think I'm lying fine.  That's your call.

Would be interested to know how you know that though and why you think it.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 3, 2016)

Diamond said:


> "Oh, I don't really want to isolate you and criticise you, it's all just a laugh"


you're breaking up


----------



## CNT36 (May 3, 2016)

Diamond said:


> "Oh, I don't really want to isolate you and criticise you, it's all just a laugh"


That is not what casual means or what was said.


----------



## Diamond (May 3, 2016)

There is so much petty crap on this thread that it is a perfect example of the kind of atmosphere in which prejudice flourishes.

For instance, I am "slime", apparently.


----------



## JuanTwoThree (May 3, 2016)

belboid said:


> Yes



No


Diamond said:


> "Casual anti-semitism" - what a ridiculous idea...



GTMF


----------



## andysays (May 3, 2016)

Diamond said:


> OK - fuck it.  I was trying to provide a bit of colour by talking about people I know.
> 
> If you think I'm lying fine.  That's your call.
> 
> Would be interested to know how you know that though and why you think it.



There's a fine line between "trying to provide a bit of colour by talking about people you know" and "claiming some special knowledge or authority the rest of us don't have because we don't have access to your amazing social network". All too often (not just on this thread) you come across to me as engaging in the latter.

I don't know or particularly care if you're lying about this, but the fact that you know some bloke who converted to Judaism and subsequently had what you described as a "lavish" wedding doesn't add anything to the discussion, as far as I can see, it's just another version of "some of my best friends are jewish/black/gay etc"


----------



## Diamond (May 3, 2016)

andysays said:


> There's a fine line between "trying to provide a bit of colour by talking about people you know" and "claiming some special knowledge or authority the rest of us don't have because we don't have access to your amazing social network". All too often (not just on this thread) you come across to me as engaging in the latter.
> 
> I don't know or particularly care if you're lying about this, but the fact that you know some bloke who converted to Judaism and subsequently had what you described as a "lavish" wedding doesn't add anything to the discussion, as far as I can see, it's just another version of "some of my best friends are jewish/black/gay etc"



Fair enough - that's your call.

Not sure opposition to that merits the opprobrium that I've received here but maybe that's more of a reflection of people who take contrary stances to my own, perhaps?


----------



## andysays (May 3, 2016)

Diamond said:


> Fair enough - that's your call.
> 
> Not sure opposition to that merits *the opprobrium that I've received here* but maybe that's more of a reflection of people who take contrary stances to my own, perhaps?



The opprobrium you receive here is more than merited by the ill-thought out nonsense you regularly come out with, most recently making ridiculous claims about holocaust denial, and it's not altogether surprising if a little of it spills over into areas where it's perhaps a little less merited.

You'd try the patience of a fucking saint, as my granny used to say...


----------



## Pickman's model (May 3, 2016)

Diamond said:


> Fair enough - that's your call.
> 
> Not sure opposition to that merits the opprobrium that I've received here but maybe that's more of a reflection of people who take contrary stances to my own, perhaps?


tbh from my pov you take stances which are frankly contrary to common sense, and all too often seem to come from a position of ignorance. take richard evans, for example. evans has written about the holocaust, most famously his 'telling lies about hitler'. but he is more famous as a historian of germany than a historian of the holocaust. martin gilbert, by contrast, has written a history of the holocaust and was professor of holocaust studies (iirc the title) at ucl in the mid-1990s. he would, i suggest, be a more prominent and indeed revered historian of the holocaust than evans. see Sir Martin Gilbert Obituary


----------



## Diamond (May 3, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> tbh from my pov you take stances which are frankly contrary to common sense, and all too often seem to come from a position of ignorance. take richard evans, for example. evans has written about the holocaust, most famously his 'telling lies about hitler'. but he is more famous as a historian of germany than a historian of the holocaust. martin gilbert, by contrast, has written a history of the holocaust and was professor of holocaust studies (iirc the title) at ucl in the mid-1990s. he would, i suggest, be a more prominent and indeed revered historian of the holocaust than evans. see Sir Martin Gilbert Obituary



Irving trial?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 3, 2016)

Diamond said:


> Irving trial?


yes, richard evans wrote a book about the irving trial. as i mentioned (telling lies about hitler) but that doesn't make him the country's most revered historian of the holocaust.


----------



## butchersapron (May 3, 2016)

Diamond said:


> Irving trial?


Yes, the one that the post you're replying to made specific reference to. Don't dig the hole deeper.

And just go away of course.


----------



## Diamond (May 3, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> yes, richard evans wrote a book about the irving trial. as i mentioned (telling lies about hitler) but that doesn't make him the country's most revered historian of the holocaust.



He didn't just write a book, he was an _expert witness_ at the bloody trial.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 3, 2016)

Diamond said:


> He didn't just write a book, he was an _expert witness_ at the bloody trial.


yes. &?


----------



## butchersapron (May 3, 2016)

Diamond said:


> He didn't just write a book, he was an _expert witness_ at the bloody trial.


Have you read the book? If so, could you outline on what basis Evans was requested by the defence to be an expert witness? As outlined by Evans himself in the book please. Does he mention his holocaust expertise among the list of reasons he gives?


----------



## Diamond (May 3, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Have you read the book? If so, could you outline on what basis Evans was requested by the defence to be an expert witness? As outlined by Evans himself in the book please. Does he mention his holocaust expertise among the list of reasons he gives?



Let's circle back to dodgy references and, in particular, _inferences_ first.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 3, 2016)

Diamond 
 
even richard evans doesn't say he's a historian of the holocaust.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 3, 2016)

Diamond said:


> Let's circle back to dodgy references and, in particular, _inferences_ first.


jesus mary and joseph, have you never heard the saying 'it is better to stay silent and be thought a fool than speak and prove you're one'?


----------



## butchersapron (May 3, 2016)

Diamond said:


> Let's circle back to dodgy references and, in particular, _inferences_ first.


No, because a) that doesn't involve me b) it's been established that you misread in a massive way what another post said and to what it was directed.

So, let's have your reply to me.


----------



## Diamond (May 3, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Diamond
> View attachment 86487
> even richard evans doesn't say he's a historian of the holocaust.



But your argument is that you were not referring to him in any way whatsoever when you referred to "dodgy references and inferences", so why dig into his academic reputation at all unless you were actually doing so?

It's an odd way to go about things to say the least and amounts to a strange contradiction where you were saying someone was crap but it was not this person but they are crap anyway.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 3, 2016)

Diamond said:


> But your argument is that you were not referring to him in any way whatsoever when you referred to "dodgy references and inferences", so why dig into his academic reputation at all unless you were actually doing so?
> 
> It's an odd way to go about things to say the least and amounts to a strange contradiction where you were saying someone was crap but it was not this person but they are crap anyway.


you said richard evans was the country's most revered historian of the holocaust. this is an example of you speaking from a position of ignorance. please go back and read post 1207. then read it again. and again until you understand it.

and i have never said or suggested or implied that 'richard evans is crap'. i have suggested that any poor historical practice within the work of lenni brenner would be more likely found in poor referencing and dodgy inferences than in use of forged documents. which everyone else apart from you comprehends.


----------



## Tom A (May 3, 2016)

treelover said:


> I wonder how many Left Unity(which yes i had high hoped for at first) alumni are involved in these attacks on Owen Jones.


As an ex-LU member I find that Owen Jones is being quite sensible on this issue, FWIW.


----------



## Diamond (May 3, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> you said richard evans was the country's most revered historian of the holocaust. this is an example of you speaking from a position of ignorance. please go back and read post 1207. then read it again. and again until you understand it.



If Richard Evans is irrelevant and all his theses are correct from your pov, fine but that is explicitly not how your posting reads.

Am happy to accept that you were not the most perspicacious and perhaps a little trigger happy and/or I misread what you posted, but that is how I, and I suspect many others, saw it.


----------



## teqniq (May 3, 2016)

Why is anyone giving this clown any attention?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 3, 2016)

Diamond said:


> If Richard Evans is irrelevant and all his theses are correct from your pov, fine but that is explicitly not how your posting reads.


tbh you brought richard evans in this thing, yes Bernie Gunther mentioned richard evans in the post i quoted: but the subject of the post was lenni brenner and not richard evans. when i subsequently said i would post up some stuff about lenni brenner do you not think for even a moment that if i had meant richard evans i might have pointed out where evans had gone astray?  do you not think i'd have produced some evidence? dear jesus, i hope your legal work is of a higher standard than your posts here.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 3, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> the term 'diamond geezer' no longer means 'a very decent man'.



But now means "blowhard who spouts shit at regular intervals".


----------



## Diamond (May 3, 2016)

Or perhaps "someone who holds a different opinion that they challenge people on"?


----------



## Diamond (May 3, 2016)

You lot of, and I'm guessing here, largely middle-aged male keyboard warriors are such a cosy bunch.

The idea that someone might disagree with you is totally alien to your closeted world.


----------



## redsquirrel (May 3, 2016)

What have you challenged anybody on? You've just made a malicious unfounded accusation of near holocaust denial which you still haven't had the guts to apologise for.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (May 3, 2016)

Diamond said:


> Or perhaps "someone who holds a different opinion that they challenge people on"?


tbh I haven't really seen an opinion from you on this thread.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 3, 2016)

Diamond said:


> You lot of, and I'm guessing here, largely middle-aged male keyboard warriors are such a cosy bunch.
> 
> The idea that someone might disagree with you is totally alien to your closeted world.


disagreement i can cope with. continual misunderstanding based on an inability to comprehend simple points, that's something i have more difficulty dealing with.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 3, 2016)

Diamond said:


> Or perhaps "someone who holds a different opinion that they challenge people on"?



As I made clear on page 40, it's not about your opinion differing, it's about the poor relationship your opinions expressed on this thread have with known fact.


----------



## stethoscope (May 3, 2016)

Diamond said:


> You lot of, and I'm guessing here, largely middle-aged male keyboard warriors are such a cosy bunch.
> 
> The idea that someone might disagree with you is totally alien to your closeted world.



Why do you do this shit on threads?

(female btw)


----------



## butchersapron (May 3, 2016)

As diamond has decided to bottle my questions to him and o have to go out soon i'll just post this up before i go:

This was the basis for Evans involvement as an expert witness in the irving trial - it comes in two sets:

A
1) He was a specialist in modern history
2) Good command of German - esp obsolete german script 
3) Familiarity with the documentary basis of much modern german history
4) Had long taught on Nazi germany

All helping to provide expertise on how to interpret nazi documents

B
1) Just published a book on process of historical investigation and objectivity and bias, nature of historical research and possibility of producing accurate historical knowledge.

So, not a thing about any expertise in the holocaust. Which means that you (diamond) either haven't actually read the book but pretended to some expert knowledge about it - or that you have read it and chose to misrepresent the nature of the basis of Evan's expert witness involvement.


----------



## teqniq (May 3, 2016)

Relevant to the thread looking at the Indy and the Graun this morning the story seems to some degree to have run it's course, headlines superseded by surprise footie win and just a couple of not very prominent straplines.


----------



## J Ed (May 3, 2016)

teqniq said:


> Relevant to the thread looking at the Indy and the Graun this morning the story seems to some degree to have run it's course, headlines superseded by surprise footie win and just a couple of not very prominent straplines.



Will there be another related story before Thursday? I wouldn't be surprised.


----------



## Diamond (May 3, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> tbh I haven't really seen an opinion from you on this thread.



How about there is an increasingly powerful undercurrent of antisemitism in the UK left-wing movement, defended, awkwardly, but relentlessly by its members, as evidenced here.

That's a pretty straightforward opinion, no?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 3, 2016)

teqniq said:


> Relevant to the thread looking at the Indy and the Graun this morning the story seems to some degree to have run it's course, headlines superseded by surprise footie win and just a couple of not very prominent straplines.


tell you what, we should send the _maquis_ diamond and see them flounder and implode under his influence.


----------



## teqniq (May 3, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Will there be another related story before Thursday? I wouldn't be surprised.



Yeah quite possibly.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 3, 2016)

Diamond said:


> How about there is an increasingly powerful undercurrent of antisemitism in the UK left-wing movement, defended, awkwardly, but relentlessly by its members, as evidenced here.
> 
> That's a pretty straightforward opinion, no?


it's a pretty bollocks opinion which you have as yet not substantiated by anything beyond bluster.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 3, 2016)

Diamond said:


> You lot of, and I'm guessing here, largely middle-aged male keyboard warriors are such a cosy bunch.
> 
> The idea that someone might disagree with you is totally alien to your closeted world.



I respect someone who disagrees with me, but has the ability to argue their case solidly, and support it with evidence.

You *never* argue your case solidly. You use sophistry and circumvent actual substance. That's not opinion informing what I've just written, by the way. It's a practical technique known as "textual analysis".


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 3, 2016)

Diamond said:


> How about there is an increasingly powerful undercurrent of antisemitism in the UK left-wing movement, defended, awkwardly, but relentlessly by its members, as evidenced here.
> 
> That's a pretty straightforward opinion, no?



Can you provide evidence of that?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 3, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Can you provide evidence of that?


again, i'll save Diamond the trouble: no, he can't.


----------



## Diamond (May 3, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> As diamond has decided to bottle my questions to him and o have to go out soon i'll just post this up before i go:
> 
> This was the basis for Evans involvement as an expert witness in the irving trial - it comes in two sets:
> 
> ...



The trial was about defamation in relation to _Holocaust Denial_.

He testified on _Holocaust Denial_.

He was cross-examined by Irving himself on _Holocaust Denial_.


----------



## J Ed (May 3, 2016)

Diamond said:


> How about there is an increasingly powerful undercurrent of antisemitism in the UK left-wing movement, defended, awkwardly, but relentlessly by its members, as evidenced here.
> 
> That's a pretty straightforward opinion, no?



*Who* has been defending this undercurrent?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (May 3, 2016)

Diamond said:


> How about there is an increasingly powerful undercurrent of antisemitism in the UK left-wing movement, defended, awkwardly, but relentlessly by its members, as evidenced here.
> 
> That's a pretty straightforward opinion, no?


Ok that's an opinion. An idiotic opinion, but an opinion nonetheless. Why should any of us waste our time countering it?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 3, 2016)

Diamond said:


> The trial was about defamation in relation to _Holocaust Denial_.
> 
> He testified on _Holocaust Denial_.
> 
> He was cross-examined by Irving himself on _Holocaust Denial_.


holocaust denial of course famously happened after the conclusion of the holocaust. someone may be a historian of fascist attempts to dispute the reality of the holocaust while not being a historian of the holocaust.


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 3, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Ok that's an opinion. An idiotic opinion, but an opinion nonetheless. Why should any of us waste our time countering it?



No one need waste their time as there isn't any evidence of it on offer.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 3, 2016)

teqniq said:


> Relevant to the thread looking at the Indy and the Graun this morning the story seems to some degree to have run it's course, headlines superseded by surprise footie win and just a couple of not very prominent straplines.





J Ed said:


> Will there be another related story before Thursday? I wouldn't be surprised.



It's highly likely that there are more - specious - stories lined up.


----------



## Diamond (May 3, 2016)

J Ed said:


> *Who* has been defending this undercurrent?



Apparently the expert witness in the most important defamation trial in this jurisdiction on _Holocaust Denial_ was either not qualified or not instructed appropriately.


----------



## J Ed (May 3, 2016)

Diamond said:


> Apparently the expert witness in the most important defamation trial on _Holocaust Denial_ was not either not qualified or not instructed appropriately.



OK, let's ignore everything that's actually been said and assume that is entirely true and not a misrepresentation. The question remains, 
*who* has been defending this undercurrent of anti-Semitism on the British left?


----------



## butchersapron (May 3, 2016)

Diamond said:


> The trial was about defamation in relation to _Holocaust Denial_.
> 
> He testified on _Holocaust Denial_.
> 
> He was cross-examined by Irving himself on _Holocaust Denial_.


No he didn't, be testified on the process of historical investigation with special emphasis on interpretation of nazi documentary evidence. The last paragraph of my post above is looking more solid with each response from you.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 3, 2016)

Diamond said:


> Apparently the expert witness in the most important defamation trial on _Holocaust Denial_ was not either not qualified or not instructed appropriately.


no. you have said words to the effect of 'richard evans is the country's most revered historian of the holocaust'. as his own profile shows, he does not consider himself a historian of the holocaust but rather - as butchersapron points out -  an expert on historical method and documentary evidence.


----------



## stethoscope (May 3, 2016)

Jesus, if you really are a lawyer, Diamond, I'd be very worried if you ever defended me (or faced you). I've never known such a twister of logic and arguments, and downright disingenuousness.


----------



## Diamond (May 3, 2016)

J Ed said:


> OK, let's ignore everything that's actually been said and assume that is entirely true and not a misrepresentation. The question remains,
> *who* has been defending this undercurrent of anti-Semitism on the British left?



Livingstone!

And Corbyn by association.

And there's Naz Khan also.

Aren't they the politicians who are leading the charge on this issue?

Or maybe I'm completely misreading the runes...

[we could add Diane Abott too btw]


----------



## Pickman's model (May 3, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> Jesus, if you really are a lawyer, Diamond, I'd be very worried if you ever defended me (or faced you). I've never known such a twister.


it's not so much he's a twister, it's that he has difficulty getting to grips with even simple concepts: not that he uses the law imaginatively but that i doubt he can use it at all.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 3, 2016)

Diamond said:


> Livingstone!
> 
> And Corbyn by association.
> 
> ...


let's take livingstone. could you run through his defence of anti-semitism?


----------



## butchersapron (May 3, 2016)

Who is this naz khan then?


----------



## Spymaster (May 3, 2016)

andysays said:


> You'd try the patience of a fucking saint, as my granny used to say...


I bet she didn't say it like that.


----------



## Diamond (May 3, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> let's take livingstone. could you run through his defence of anti-semitism?



Hitler nice chap until "he went mad"


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 3, 2016)

Diamond said:


> How about there is an increasingly powerful undercurrent of antisemitism in the UK left-wing movement, defended, awkwardly, but relentlessly by its members, as evidenced here.
> 
> That's a pretty straightforward opinion, no?



Increasingly powerful in comparison to what, though?

As for where it comes from, while I've encountered some anti-Semitism on the left, it's almost always been from Swappies, and usually from ones who haven't understood the distinction between the state of Israel's policies and the personal ideologies of individual Jews. It's not something I've seen in the Labour Party, and those I know who are members of Momentum are mostly old school anti-fascists.

The anti-Semitism I've experienced, has always come from the right. Everything from verbal abuse to violence.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 3, 2016)

Spymaster said:


> I bet she didn't say it like that.



She fucking well did, cunt!


----------



## J Ed (May 3, 2016)

Diamond said:


> Livingstone!
> 
> And Corbyn by association.
> 
> ...



Do they all post on urban75?


----------



## Diamond (May 3, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Increasingly powerful in comparison to what, though?
> 
> As for where it comes from, while I've encountered some anti-Semitism on the left, it's almost always been from Swappies, and usually from ones who haven't understood the distinction between the state of Israel's policies and the personal ideologies of individual Jews. It's not something I've seen in the Labour Party, and those I know who are members of Momentum are mostly old school anti-fascists.
> 
> The anti-Semitism I've experienced, has always come from the right. Everything from verbal abuse to violence.



I'm not saying that doesn't exist on the right at all.  It is almost certainly worse there.


----------



## redsquirrel (May 3, 2016)

Diamond said:


> Apparently the expert witness in the most important defamation trial in this jurisdiction on _Holocaust Denial_ was either not qualified or not instructed appropriately.


How is that a defence of anti-semitism? (Leaving aside whether or not it's an accurate account of people's posts)

And I presume you mean Naz Shah not Naz Khan


----------



## littlebabyjesus (May 3, 2016)

Diamond said:


> Hitler nice chap until "he went mad"


er who _on here_ has defended that? All I've seen is a string of people roundly condemning it.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 3, 2016)

Diamond said:


> How about there is an increasingly powerful undercurrent of antisemitism in the UK left-wing movement, defended, awkwardly, but relentlessly by its members, as evidenced here.
> 
> That's a pretty straightforward opinion, no?





Diamond said:


> Hitler nice chap until "he went mad"


and that's your evidence for livingstone defending a powerful undercurrent of antisemitism in the uk left-wing movement? you'd be laughed out of court.


----------



## ElizabethofYork (May 3, 2016)

Diamond said:


> Hitler nice chap until "he went mad"



Could you provide a link to where KL said Hitler was a nice chap?


----------



## teqniq (May 3, 2016)

Livingstone's complete fuckwittery aside Corbyn's biggest problem would seem to be the Blairites who seem to be happy to cause all kinds of mayhem based on 'if we can't have the toys then nobody can'.


----------



## butchersapron (May 3, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> How is that a defence of anti-semitism? (Leaving aside whether or not it's an accurate account of people's posts)
> 
> And I presume you mean Naz Shah not Naz Khan


They all look the same these anti Semites.


----------



## Spymaster (May 3, 2016)

Diamond said:


> Hitler nice chap until "he went mad"


Not what was said at all.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (May 3, 2016)

Setting aside the misrepresentation of Livingstone, _who here_ has defended what he actually said (which was fuckwitted enough without need for embellishment)?


----------



## treelover (May 3, 2016)

J Ed said:


> OK, let's ignore everything that's actually been said and assume that is entirely true and not a misrepresentation. The question remains,
> *who* has been defending this undercurrent of anti-Semitism on the British left?




SWP/Counterfire, it could be argued come close, along with the myriad of micro-sects.


----------



## killer b (May 3, 2016)

has anything of value happened in this discussion since Friday, or should I not bother?


----------



## Diamond (May 3, 2016)

Anti-Semitic Tweets

From the Guardian's David Baddiel article.


----------



## redsquirrel (May 3, 2016)

Sorry what is that supposed to show? That there are  anti-semitic wankers in world, no shit.


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 3, 2016)

Diamond said:


> Anti-Semitic Tweets
> 
> From the Guardian's David Baddiel article.



What does that have to do with people on this thread?

Answer, nothing.

You've just thrown that in because you have no evidence to back up your accusations of posters here. You're hoping people read it, get distracted and don't notice you squirming.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 3, 2016)

Diamond said:


> Hitler nice chap until "he went mad"



You're implying that Livingstone represented Hitler as a nice chap, by drawing an inference from Livingstone's (to paraphrase) "was a Zionist until he went mad".

The drawing of such inference is ignorant and partisan, on the basis of you drawing it not based on the text and context, but on what you *wish* to have happened.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 3, 2016)

Diamond said:


> Anti-Semitic Tweets
> 
> From the Guardian's David Baddiel article.


you said:





Diamond said:


> How about there is an increasingly powerful undercurrent of antisemitism in the UK left-wing movement, defended, awkwardly, but relentlessly by its members, as evidenced here.


 i have yet to see you produce an iota of evidence of anyone defending - you do, i hope, understand the term - this powerful undercurrent. put up: or shut up.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 3, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Who is this naz khan then?



Chaka's sister.


----------



## killer b (May 3, 2016)

not looking promising.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 3, 2016)

killer b said:


> not looking promising.


yeh diamond has the anti-midas touch


----------



## teqniq (May 3, 2016)




----------



## killer b (May 3, 2016)

why do you let him?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 3, 2016)

killer b said:


> why do you let him?


perhaps you could expand on this.


----------



## killer b (May 3, 2016)

Nah.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 3, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Setting aside the misrepresentation of Livingstone, _who here_ has defended what he actually said (which was fuckwitted enough without need for embellishment)?



No-one.
There have, of course, been plenty of attempts to establish the context for what he said, and to parse it for accuracy, and to some (fuckwits, mainly) that would equate to "defending" Livingstone.

Thing is, most of us would do the same for anyone - take the words in context, as opposed to deliberately divorcing them from it.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 3, 2016)

killer b said:


> Nah.


in that case i am not sure what point you are trying to make.


----------



## oryx (May 3, 2016)

oryx said:


> Who is? Someone on here?


You haven't answered my question diamond.

Are you accusing anyone on this thread of holocaust denial, yes or no?


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 3, 2016)

treelover said:


> SWP/Counterfire, it could be argued come close, along with the myriad of micro-sects.



*IF* the (very limited) anti-Semitism I've seen from Trotlets was "organised" - i.e. policy - I might agree, but the few times I've seen it, it's been the ignorant conflation of Jews and Zionists. It doesn't "come close", because it's not a movement or part of a movement, just a manifestation of ignorance.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 3, 2016)

oryx said:


> You haven't answered my question diamond.
> 
> Are you accusing anyone on this thread of holocaust denial, yes or no?


you should put an @ immediately in front of diamond: @ diamond, without the space


----------



## Pickman's model (May 3, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> *IF* the (very limited) anti-Semitism I've seen from Trotlets was "organised" - i.e. policy - I might agree, but the few times I've seen it, it's been the ignorant conflation of Jews and Zionists. It doesn't "come close", because it's not a movement or part of a movement, just a manifestation of ignorance.


yes. and no one's been defending a movement or current or strain of people who are being anti-semitic, unless Diamond has some evidence which he'd like to share with us.


----------



## two sheds (May 3, 2016)

Diamond said:


> Anti-Semitic Tweets
> 
> From the Guardian's David Baddiel article.



Looking at the first few of those tweets, most of them seem from people on the right wing. Where's the evidence they were from people on the left? 

This is what I've been asking you about since your first post and you've consistently ignored it - you're saying this is a left wing problem but it's a problem in society and most particularly on the right wing. 

You're trivialising it by playing party politics. It seems you don't actually care about anti-semitism you just want to say yah-boo lefties you're anti-semites.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 3, 2016)

two sheds said:


> Looking at the first few of those tweets, most of them seem from people on the right wing. Where's the evidence they were from people on the left?
> 
> This is what I've been asking you about since your first post and you've consistently ignored it - you're saying this is a left wing problem but it's a problem in society and most particularly on the right wing.
> 
> You're trivialising it by playing party politics. It seems you don't actually care about anti-semitism you just want to say yah-boo lefties you're anti-semites.


and he can't even get that right


----------



## oryx (May 3, 2016)

oryx said:


> You haven't answered my question diamond.
> 
> Are you accusing anyone on this thread of holocaust denial, yes or no?


Diamond


----------



## Bernie Gunther (May 3, 2016)

killer b said:


> has anything of value happened in this discussion since Friday, or should I not bother?



From my perspective there was a bit of interesting stuff about Lenni Brenner, the writer on fascist currents in revisionist Zionism and similar matters, whose work Ken was citing (and it turns out ludicrously misrepresenting) in the course of his unfortunate contribution to the public discussion.


----------



## Bernie Gunther (May 3, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Or we could discuss allegations of labour party anti-semitism, if there's any evidence, what motivates the claims or the anti-semitism, what constitutes anti-semitism and why, how it developed and relates to the present day etc rather than waste the thread further on a wild goose chase consisting of competing statements and re-statements of entrenched positions with no real world impact.



... And Butchers made a brave attempt to get us back to the actual topic.


----------



## nino_savatte (May 3, 2016)

Norman Finkelstein adds his voice to those condemning the manufactured anti-Semitism 'controversy'. 




> **Did you create the controversial image that Naz Shah reposted?*
> 
> I’m not adept enough with computers to compose any image. But I did post the map on my website in 2014. An email correspondent must have sent it. It was, and still is, funny. Were it not for the current political context, nobody would have noticed Shah’s reposting of it either. Otherwise, you’d have to be humourless. These sorts of jokes are a commonplace in the U.S. So, we have this joke: Why doesn’t Israel become the 51st state? Answer: Because then, it would only have two senators. As crazy as the discourse on Israel is in America, at least we still have a sense of humour. It’s inconceivable that any politician in the U.S. would be crucified for posting such a map.
> 
> ...



The American Jewish scholar behind Labour’s ‘antisemitism’ scandal breaks his silence


----------



## nino_savatte (May 3, 2016)

teqniq said:


> 'if we can't have the toys then nobody can'.


It's the classic behaviour of narcissists and reminds me of those relationships in which the abuser, high on their jealousy, brutally kills their partner. "If I can't have you, then no one can".


----------



## nino_savatte (May 3, 2016)

agricola said:


> The problem is though that (especially under Corbyn) they don't have the means to create these stories, or to put them in the media, or have a friendly element in the opposing party that will make part of the running with the stories.
> 
> Take this anti-semitism row for example, which seems to have come as the result of CAAS (or someone else, though they were mentioned a couple of times) research into every (or at least every Muslim) Labour MP, PPC and councillor and which has been passed on to Guido and then into the papers.  Its also been eagerly seized upon by the maquis as something to hit their leader with, even though all these people (with the exception of Livingstone) got into Labour (or rather got into positions of power within Labour) when they were in charge.
> 
> What Labour should try and remedy this research gap as soon as possible.  I don't think that attacking the Tories for being racist is going to be that much of a success (for a start, its probably something that most people who would conceivably vote Labour would think anyway), but detailed and truthful research into their financial dealings and the potential cost to the taxpayer would be a better bet - assuming that they don't manage to get rid of Corbyn the next election is going to be fought on economic policy, the papers won't be able to block that much of it, and it would be helpful to demonstrate what they are actually up to.


Labour's inferiority complex is still there though, and that's something they really need to work on.


----------



## andysays (May 3, 2016)

Spymaster said:


> I bet she didn't say it like that.



You clearly never met my granny.


----------



## andysays (May 3, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> She fucking well did, cunt!



I should probably admit right now that my granny who said that someone would try the patience of a fucking saint is a complete figment who I made up as a comedic device to juxtapose against the figures diamond has been accused of making up to populate his stories.

My real granny would never have said that, although she did use to say that just because someone else was behaving like a cunt was no excuse for me to do so.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 3, 2016)

andysays said:


> I should probably admit right now that my granny who said that someone would try the patience of a fucking saint is a complete figment who I made up as a comedic device to juxtapose against the figures diamond has been accused of making up to populate his stories.
> 
> My real granny would never have said that, although she did use to say that just because someone else was behaving like a cunt was no excuse for me to do so.


i bet she said that frequently. if she said it at all. which i doubt.


----------



## JimW (May 3, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> i bet she said that frequently. if she said it at all. which i doubt.


I can read your avatar. I realise this adds nothing to the discussion, but then I thought, if it's good enough for Diamond...


----------



## Pickman's model (May 3, 2016)

JimW said:


> I can read your avatar. I realise this adds nothing to the discussion, but then I thought, if it's good enough for Diamond...


...then it's probably not fit for human consumption


----------



## Cid (May 3, 2016)

JimW said:


> I can read your avatar. I realise this adds nothing to the discussion, but then I thought, if it's good enough for Diamond...



What does it say? Obviously it's the fact that it's traditional characters that's throwing me, just need clarification...


----------



## nino_savatte (May 3, 2016)

treelover said:


> SWP/Counterfire, it could be argued come close, along with the myriad of micro-sects.


Really? We all know you have a bee in your bonnet about the SWP, but where's the evidence that says they're over-run with anti-Semites?

The SWP was actually founded by a Jew (Yigael Gluckstein/Tony Cliff).


----------



## JimW (May 3, 2016)

In simplified 速离此地否则开枪 --- leave here at once (lit. rapidly) or we'll shoot (open fire).
ETA Cid


----------



## Pickman's model (May 3, 2016)

JimW said:


> In simplified 速离此地否则开枪 --- leave here at once (lit. rapidly) or we'll shoot (open fire).


"disperse or we will open fire"


----------



## JimW (May 3, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> "disperse or we will open fire"


Disperse is a bit of a loose translation, usually some compound including 散 for that, it literally says "rapidly leave this place"
ETA Not that I'm opposed to loose translations where the context demands, mind you.


----------



## Cid (May 3, 2016)

谢谢， 很好


----------



## JimW (May 3, 2016)

Cid said:


> 谢谢， 很好


甭谢


----------



## Patteran (May 3, 2016)

agricola said:


> The problem is though that (especially under Corbyn) they don't have the means to create these stories, or to put them in the media, or have a friendly element in the opposing party that will make part of the running with the stories.
> 
> Take this anti-semitism row for example, which seems *to have come as the result of CAAS* (or someone else, though they were mentioned a couple of times) research into every (or at least every Muslim) Labour MP, PPC and councillor and which has been passed on to Guido and then into the papers.  Its also been eagerly seized upon by the maquis as something to hit their leader with, even though all these people (with the exception of Livingstone) got into Labour (or rather got into positions of power within Labour) when they were in charge.
> 
> What Labour should try and remedy this research gap as soon as possible.  I don't think that attacking the Tories for being racist is going to be that much of a success (for a start, its probably something that most people who would conceivably vote Labour would think anyway), but detailed and truthful research into their financial dealings and the potential cost to the taxpayer would be a better bet - assuming that they don't manage to get rid of Corbyn the next election is going to be fought on economic policy, the papers won't be able to block that much of it, and it would be helpful to demonstrate what they are actually up to.



What's CAAS? Tried a google.


----------



## Dogsauce (May 3, 2016)

The stuff they have trawled up from Labour members has been pretty mild in the scheme of things, I'm surprised worse hasn't been dug out, particularly from 2014 when Gaza was being crushed and people were fucking angry about it.  Maybe they are holding back on some worse stuff?  I'd kind of expect there to be worse out there (in terms of hostility to Israel, which is what seems to be called 'anti-semitic' at the moment).  Not defending what's been said, just that it seems tame relative to the hysteria generated.


----------



## Wilf (May 3, 2016)

Dogsauce said:


> The stuff they have trawled up from Labour members has been pretty mild in the scheme of things, I'm surprised worse hasn't been dug out, particularly from 2014 when Gaza was being crushed and people were fucking angry about it.  Maybe they are holding back on some worse stuff?  I'd kind of expect there to be worse out there (in terms of hostility to Israel, which is what seems to be called 'anti-semitic' at the moment).  Not defending what's been said, just that it seems tame relative to the hysteria generated.


This. I'd certainly expect more to have been unearthed by the press or right wing labour mps and their researchers. You can imagine the fevered searching and attempts to get onto the twitter feeds /facebook pages of imagined likely suspects.  That there hasn't been much is, to be honest, something of a surprise. I'm hardly going to defend anti-Semitism, but you'd have expected more real time anger amid the bombing of gaza or at other flashpoints.  In some ways it's a measure of how 'professionalised' and spun prospective labour mps and councillors have become.  Again, I'm not suggesting there should have been a natural tendency to come out with anti-Semitic bile at those points, but that careerism probably won out over anger.


----------



## Coolfonz (May 3, 2016)

two sheds said:


> Looking at the first few of those tweets, most of them seem from people on the right wing. Where's the evidence they were from people on the left?
> 
> This is what I've been asking you about since your first post and you've consistently ignored it - you're saying this is a left wing problem but it's a problem in society and most particularly on the right wing.
> 
> You're trivialising it by playing party politics. It seems you don't actually care about anti-semitism you just want to say yah-boo lefties you're anti-semites.


He's a fucking jew hating cunt. All jews are worth to this prick are toys to be played with. to settle his petty fucking scores in his poxy political party. thats what a jew is worth to him, a fucking toy. you anti-semitic jew hating cunt. wanders around calling jews `yids` as well...pussy internet wanker.


----------



## bimble (May 3, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> He's a fucking jew hating cunt. All jews are worth to this prick are toys to be played with. to settle his petty fucking scores in his poxy political party. thats what a jew is worth to him, a fucking toy. you anti-semitic jew hating cunt. wanders around calling jews `yids` as well...pussy internet wanker.


What are you doing with jews in your post do you reckon? Tiny bit of hypocrisy here maybe, can you see where i'm coming from? 
Shame this whole thread got so derailed by another boring round of Diamond-baiting.


----------



## treelover (May 3, 2016)

nino_savatte said:


> Really? We all know you have a bee in your bonnet about the SWP, but where's the evidence that says they're over-run with anti-Semites?
> 
> The SWP was actually founded by a Jew (Yigael Gluckstein/Tony Cliff).




FFs, what about Weyman Bennet reportedly saying in Hyde Park, "why don't the Jews go back to New York or wherever", it was even discussed on here and in depth.

Google it, but be aware many of the links are from anti-jihadi sites, strangely not many left ones reported on it.


----------



## Coolfonz (May 3, 2016)

Shame he's an anti-semitic cunt isn't it. Fucking bowls about making up shit, calling jews `yids` (claiming jews call each other `yids`, fuck off cunt on the wind-up), playing little games coz he hates Corbyn or whoever it is in labour he hates. and he gets called out. when you manipulate anti-semitism for your own poxy gain, it's anti-semitic. i dont give a fuck about labour, so no, no hypocrisy from me.

having said that the little piss stain isn't worth getting annoyed about.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 3, 2016)

andysays said:


> My real granny would never have said that, although she did use to say that just because someone else was behaving like a cunt was no excuse for me to do so.



You obviously never had to listen to her tirades when she'd misplaced her false gnashers!


----------



## cantsin (May 3, 2016)

treelover said:


> FFs, what about Weyman Bennet reportedly saying in Hyde Park, "why don't the Jews go back to New York or wherever", it was even discussed on here and in depth.
> 
> Google it, but be aware many of the links are from anti-jihadi sites, strangely not many left ones reported on it.



feck it , yr right, that deffo constitutes 'over run by anti semites'


----------



## belboid (May 3, 2016)

treelover said:


> FFs, what about Weyman Bennet reportedly saying in Hyde Park, "why don't the Jews go back to New York or wherever", it was even discussed on here and in depth.
> 
> Google it, but be aware many of the links are from anti-jihadi sites, strangely not many left ones reported on it.


That claim - from a (now ex) member of the CPGB referred to Israeli's, not 'jews'.  Slightly different.  If true (and I would never take anything from the CPGB without another source to support it) it's crude, crass, and wrong,  but hardly an example of the left being 'over run'


----------



## cantsin (May 3, 2016)

belboid said:


> That claim - from a (now ex) member of the CPGB referred to Israeli's, not 'jews'.  Slightly different.  If true (and I would never take anything from the CPGB without another source to support it) it's crude, crass, and wrong,  but hardly an example of the left being 'over run'



treelover's spouting exactly the same kind of sneaky, disingenuous crap that's everywhere at the moment, sly little misquotes that radically alter the nature of what's being said etc .


----------



## nino_savatte (May 3, 2016)

treelover said:


> FFs, what about Weyman Bennet reportedly saying in Hyde Park, "why don't the Jews go back to New York or wherever", it was even discussed on here and in depth.


A single member doesn't constitute an entire party. It's a bit like saying all blacks are muggers, because you read about some black mugger in a newspaper.


----------



## Cid (May 3, 2016)

Quite apart from the SWP not representing 'the left'.


----------



## belboid (May 3, 2016)

nino_savatte said:


> A single member doesn't constitute an entire party. It's a bit like saying all blacks are muggers, because you read about some black mugger in a newspaper.


tbf, Bennett is a 'leading' member, and their go to person when it comes to racism. If he did say that and is still in the role, it is rather shameful.



Cid said:


> Quite apart from the SWP not representing 'the left'.


word


----------



## bimble (May 3, 2016)

Looks like Bennett did say Jews should go back to wherever they came from, doesn't it? And that he's currently joint secretary of unite against fascism ? If true then thats .. Almost funny but not quite.


----------



## cantsin (May 3, 2016)

bimble said:


> Looks like Bennett did say Jews should go back to wherever they came from, doesn't it? And that he's currently joint secretary of unite against fascism ? If true then thats .. Almost funny but not quite.



so not ' Israelis' then ? any evidence/sources ?


----------



## belboid (May 3, 2016)

bimble said:


> Looks like Bennett did say Jews should go back to wherever they came from, doesn't it?


Why does it 'look like' it?  Where is your evidence for that?  There is none other than treelovers misremembered claim.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 3, 2016)

bimble said:


> Looks like Bennett did say Jews should go back to wherever they came from, doesn't it? And that he's currently joint secretary of unite against fascism ? If true then thats .. Almost funny but not quite.


You make it sound like he's supporting the right of return.


----------



## redsquirrel (May 3, 2016)

bimble said:


> Looks like Bennett did say Jews should go back to wherever they came from, doesn't it? And that he's currently joint secretary of unite against fascism ? If true then thats .. Almost funny but not quite.


Based on what? Do you have more evidence than the CPGB source? And while we are at it can you answer my previous question


bimble said:


> If you choose to call it out and make a fuss about it only when its useful for your political cause then you're not helping, just cynically exploiting the people you're pretending to defend. Equally though if you dismiss it or turn a blind eye for the same expedient political reasons, you can likewise fuck off. I think both have been going on and both are equally depressing.


Are you alleging that people on this thread/U75 are doing the above?

EDIT: And just be clear if Bennett _did_ make that comment I think it is disgusting


----------



## treelover (May 3, 2016)

Why are criticisms of the left so deeply interrogated?, yet if a comment is made by someone on the right, it is never given the scrutiny of the former, this is a criticism that is being discussed all over the web, and by many leftists.There is also something of shoot the messenger on here, i am largely talkng about the SWP/Counterfire/Tiny Sects, i wasn't aware anyone on here was involved in them anymore(glad to say never been near them)


----------



## belboid (May 3, 2016)

treelover said:


> Why are criticisms of the left so deeply interrogated?, yet if a comment is made by someone on the right, it is never given the scrutiny of the former, this is a criticism that is being discussed all over the web, and by many leftists.There is also something of shoot the messenger on here, i am largely talkng about the SWP/Counterfire/Tiny Sects, i wasn't aware anyone on here was involved in them anymore(glad to say never been near them)


because of the discourse it feeds into - which is the same as the Daily Mail/Lynton Crosby/Zac Goldsmith bullshit designed precisely to cover up for their far, far, greater racism and bigotry.  Plus, when criticisms of the tories do descend into bullshit, people on here _do _get pulled for it.  There are more than enough true things to do the fuckers for without needing to fall back on bullshit


----------



## Pickman's model (May 3, 2016)

treelover said:


> Why are criticisms of the left so deeply interrogated?, yet if a comment is made by someone on the right, it is never given the scrutiny of the former, this is a criticism that is being discussed all over the web, and by many leftists.There is also something of shoot the messenger on here, i am largely talkng about the SWP/Counterfire/Tiny Sects, i wasn't aware anyone on here was involved in them anymore(glad to say never been near them)


Being as you're not on the left and being as we're interrogating what you said your claim falls.


----------



## bimble (May 3, 2016)

Jesus. The sources alleging that he said 'jews' instead of 'the jews in israel' are not reliable. Stormfront seem to love him though.
All that seems sure is that he was accused of saying it and hasn't denied it. Maybe he said the Jews in Israel should go back to where they came from, I don't know. That's why I used two question marks and an 'if true'. 
& If I wanted to accuse anyone here of being antisemite I'd have done so. The rush to defend this bloke when apparently nobody knows quite what he said does sadden me though.


----------



## redsquirrel (May 3, 2016)

treelover said:


> Why are criticisms of the left so deeply interrogated?, yet if a comment is made by someone on the right, it is never given the scrutiny of the former, this is a criticism that is being discussed all over the web, and by many leftists.There is also something of shoot the messenger on here, i am largely talkng about the SWP/Counterfire/Tiny Sects, i wasn't aware anyone on here was involved in them anymore(glad to say never been near them)


_Criticisms_ of the left aren't "deeply interrogated" as anyone who's spent any time on U75 would know. I can remember plenty of threads where left-wing parties/groups have been criticised for their politics, their strategy or their behaviour.

What isn't given much time are smears and vague unsupported allusions to the left being chock full of racists/sexists.


----------



## belboid (May 3, 2016)

bimble said:


> Jesus. The sources alleging that he said 'jews' instead of 'the jews in israel' are not reliable. Stormfront seem to love him though.


what sources?  There is only one source, which said 'Israelis' - the only other source is treelover _today_, as opposed to treelover 6 yeas ago, when he managed to c&p accurately.

Why are you making things up?


----------



## redsquirrel (May 3, 2016)

bimble said:


> If I wanted to accuse anyone here of being antisemite I'd have done so. *The rush to defend this bloke* when apparently nobody knows quite what he said does sadden me though.


By who?


----------



## bimble (May 3, 2016)

never mind. I'm just smearing you all disingenuously etc, I'll bugger off & leave you lot to it. 
You're surely right that there is no problem at all with antisemitism in nice progressive circles, my mistake, especially definitely not in UAF, cos that would be absurd.
Best to ignore the winging of people like whoever wrote this:
"Unite Against Fascism's weakness on antisemitism is both shocking and shameful. This is not, unfortunately, a story about goings-on in two marginal far left cults. Unite Against Fascism is the leading campaign against racism in the United Kingdom. It is supported by parliamentarians from all the major political parties, and by every significant trade union. It is Unite Against Fascism that sets the tone of the debate when it comes to opposing racism. They call the demonstrations and organise the conferences. It is to Unite Against Fascism that the national press turns, when racism rears its head..
This state of affairs is, quite frankly, terrifying. As others are warning here, there is every reason to believe that the defining themes of the present economic downturn will be xenophobic, anti-immigrant and racist politics. As conspiracy theories depicting Jews as controllers of the financial markets proliferate, antisemitism will undoubtedly also be part of that mix. Support for fascist parties tends to grow during crises, and we need a strong defence against that politics, with solidarity between and support from all parts of British society. However, with its sectarianism, silence on antisemitism and blindness to Islamist Jew-hatred, Unite Against Fascism just isn't up to the job.
David Toube: Unite Against Fascism may be the UK's leading campaign against the racist far right, yet its record on opposing antisemitism is dismal


----------



## Pickman's model (May 3, 2016)

bimble said:


> Jesus. The sources alleging that he said 'jews' instead of 'the jews in israel' are not reliable. Stormfront seem to love him though.
> All that seems sure is that he was accused of saying it and hasn't denied it. Maybe he said the Jews in Israel should go back to where they came from, I don't know. That's why I used two question marks and an 'if true'.
> & If I wanted to accuse anyone here of being antisemite I'd have done so. The rush to defend this bloke when apparently nobody knows quite what he said does sadden me though.


I don't like weyman bennett. But your *rush* to attack him after treelover brought it up when no one knows quite what he said is quite in character for you.


----------



## belboid (May 3, 2016)

bimble said:


> never mind. I'm just smearing you all disingenuously etc, I'll bugger off & leave you lot to it.


we asked you to back up your statements, hardly unreasonable.  You have refused.

You should also check your sources - Neil Clark: The Outing of "David T"


----------



## redsquirrel (May 3, 2016)

Of course I'm sure that two such tireless opponents of anti-semitism as treelover and bimble would acknowledge that a anti-semitic statement such as 



			
				An U75 poster said:
			
		

> ffs  frogwoman.. who utterly despises all russians over some jewish beef


is vile and that the poster who made such a statement should be considered scum?


----------



## butchersapron (May 3, 2016)

bimble said:


> never mind. I'm just smearing you all disingenuously etc, I'll bugger off & leave you lot to it.
> You're surely right that there is no problem at all with antisemitism in nice progressive circles, my mistake, especially definitely not in UAF, cos that would be absurd.
> Best to ignore the winging of people like whoever wrote this:
> "Unite Against Fascism's weakness on antisemitism is both shocking and shameful. This is not, unfortunately, a story about goings-on in two marginal far left cults. Unite Against Fascism is the leading campaign against racism in the United Kingdom. It is supported by parliamentarians from all the major political parties, and by every significant trade union. It is Unite Against Fascism that sets the tone of the debate when it comes to opposing racism. They call the demonstrations and organise the conferences. It is to Unite Against Fascism that the national press turns, when racism rears its head..
> ...


Toube! Wow.


----------



## bimble (May 3, 2016)

what? who is neil clark, why should I care what he said etc. Anyway, I like i said, best to ignore the whinging of anyone who says stuff you don't like. Carry on.


----------



## belboid (May 3, 2016)

bimble said:


> what? who is neil clark, why should I care what he said etc. Anyway, I like i said, best to ignore the whinging of anyone who says stuff you don't like. Carry on.


you're a dishonest fucker, feigning simple ignorance to promote a right wing agenda. See through


----------



## Pickman's model (May 3, 2016)

bimble said:


> what? who is neil clark, why should I care what he said etc. Anyway, I like i said, best to ignore the whinging of anyone who says stuff you don't like. Carry on.


Yeh. Best to ignore people pointing out things like your rushing headlong into accusing wb of things you don't know what they are


----------



## bimble (May 3, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> Of course I'm sure that two such tireless opponents of anti-semitism as treelover and bimble would acknowledge that a anti-semitic statement such as
> 
> is vile and that the poster who made such a statement should be considered scum?


Maybe i'm being overly sensitive but being (i think) sarcastically called 'a tireless opponent of anti-semitism' is actually really hurtful. You don't know me or what antisemitism has meant to me. This whole topic is one where i shouldn't be buggering about on the internet with really, too touchy & personal. Especially with the constant accusations of being crafty having a secret agenda etc. Sod this for a game of soldiers.


----------



## treelover (May 3, 2016)

Bimble is Jewish as she has said herself, I thought as i have repeatedly noted that in the anti-racism movement , that if someone from a minority is offended by what they perceived as racist comments, then they are indeed being discriminated against, Bimble has given over a number of threads examples where she has felt this, goodness knows if its any other minority group, UAF, HNH, twitter, etc, are all over it. Look at the implicit defence by some posters of that Rhodes Scholar idiot because of his minority status, never mind his appalling behaviour. Anyway, like Bimble, I am not posting on this anymore, one million people living in destitution in the UK, wish more on the left would take cognisance of that.


----------



## Cid (May 3, 2016)

treelover said:


> Bimble is Jewish as she has said herself, I thought as i have repeatedly noted that in the anti-racism movement , that if someone from a minority is offended by what they perceived as racist comments, then they are indeed being discriminated against, Bimble has given over a number of threads examples where she has felt this, goodness knows if its any other minority group, UAF, HNH, twitter, etc, are all over it. Look at the implicit defence by some posters of that Rhodes Scholar idiot because of his minority status, never mind his appalling behaviour. Anyway, like Bimble, I am not posting on this anymore, one million people living in destitution in the UK, wish more on the left would take cognisance of that.



Eh? The Rhodes scholar guy has been roundly criticised on here.


----------



## treelover (May 3, 2016)

some.


----------



## Cid (May 3, 2016)

treelover said:


> some.



Where?


----------



## two sheds (May 3, 2016)

treelover said:


> one million people living in destitution in the UK, wish more on the left would take cognisance of that.



Isn't that a bit the point? The exaggerated anti-semitism charge is deflecting attention from what the tories are doing?


----------



## redsquirrel (May 3, 2016)

treelover said:


> Bimble is Jewish as she has said herself, I thought as i have repeatedly noted that in the anti-racism movement , that if someone from a minority is offended by what they perceived as racist comments, then they are indeed being discriminated against, Bimble has given over a number of threads examples where she has felt this,


Let's settle this. No more fucking waffle. Who are you alleging is guilty of anti-semitism and where's the evidence?

Either put up or do one. The one example of anti-semitsm that has been posted, you and bimble seem determined to ignore.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (May 3, 2016)

This is why so many people are scared off politics on here. What has bimble said that deserves what she's getting back? Accusations of an agenda are bang out of order.

It is possible to point out why you think something is wrong without this shit.


----------



## stethoscope (May 4, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> Of course I'm sure that two such tireless opponents of anti-semitism as treelover and bimble would acknowledge that a anti-semitic statement such as
> 
> is vile and that the poster who made such a statement should be considered scum?



I seem to recall both treelover and bimble offering praise and likes to said 'U75 poster' for speaking 'uncomfortable truths' on the Cologne thread whilst attacking a number of posters here too who were trying to provide a more nuanced analysis of the situation and possible agenda's at work.

Said 'U75 poster' with a history of sexism, homophobia and flirtations with fascist rhetoric.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 4, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> This is why so many people are scared off politics on here. What has bimble said that deserves what she's getting back? Accusations of an agenda are bang out of order.
> 
> It is possible to point out why you think something is wrong without this shit.


& that's all there is to your agenda I suppose


----------



## Bernie Gunther (May 4, 2016)

two sheds said:


> Isn't that a bit the point? The exaggerated anti-semitism charge is deflecting attention from what the tories are doing?



I'd say that's the point for _some_ of those who are doing it.

Other, largely compatible, goals might include:

NuLabour right attacking Corbyn because their career prospects are more important than eg the NHS

Partisans of a murderous racist state using anti-semitism accusations to suppress critics and make criticism untenable within mainstream politics

Actual neo-fascists and third way types who want to see the old left compromised as pro-immigrant dupes

People who really do think that basing a massive witchunt on a few idiots on the left saying stupid stuff is worth the price of forwarding the agendas of the previously listed groups.

Etc.

Some, probably unintended, side effects of such a witchunt might also bear consideration ...


----------



## Mr.Bishie (May 4, 2016)

Long read but Norman hits the nail;

The American Jewish scholar behind Labour’s ‘antisemitism’ scandal breaks his silence


----------



## Pickman's model (May 4, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> I seem to recall both treelover and bimble offering praise and likes to said 'U75 poster' for speaking 'uncomfortable truths' on the Cologne thread whilst attacking a number of posters here too who were trying to provide a more nuanced analysis of the situation and possible agenda's at work.
> 
> Said 'U75 poster' with a history of sexism, homophobia and flirtations with fascist rhetoric.


It's also interesting the number of times bimble has had to hold her hands up and admit she should leave threads eg the cologne one


----------



## stethoscope (May 4, 2016)

Well with bimble, I'm going to put it perhaps down to inexperience of politics discussion and on forums, treelover has no such excuse though.

Both have a habit of throwing up any old links which they think 'says something' without any seeming critical analysis of the origin of those links or who's saying it (and what politic/agenda's are at work), and then backpeddling/accepting it was a bad example (in bimble's case) or abandoning the discussion and not returning to respond to points made (in treelover's case). Both also seem to take reactionary positions combined with making snide hints of accusations towards what posters are supposed to have said even when those posters haven't at all. 

But seeming to support/take sides with 'U75 poster' on the Cologne thread whilst appearing to attack and smear decent posters trying to inject some nuanced political analysis in what was a clearly emotive and difficult thread was where I gave up with these two.


----------



## cantsin (May 4, 2016)

bimble said:


> never mind. I'm just smearing you all disingenuously etc, I'll bugger off & leave you lot to it.
> You're surely right that there is no problem at all with antisemitism in nice progressive circles, my mistake, especially definitely not in UAF, cos that would be absurd.
> Best to ignore the winging of people like whoever wrote this:
> "Unite Against Fascism's weakness on antisemitism is both shocking and shameful. This is not, unfortunately, a story about goings-on in two marginal far left cults. Unite Against Fascism is the leading campaign against racism in the United Kingdom. It is supported by parliamentarians from all the major political parties, and by every significant trade union. It is Unite Against Fascism that sets the tone of the debate when it comes to opposing racism. They call the demonstrations and organise the conferences. It is to Unite Against Fascism that the national press turns, when racism rears its head..
> ...



you serious ?

*David Toube - Metapedia*
en.metapedia.org/wiki/*David*_*Toube*
9 Dec 2015 - David S. Toube (born 1969) is a Zionist Jewish propagandist in the United Kingdom who runs the blog Harry's Place at HurryUpHarry.org

edit : wasn't sure about the 'Jewish' part of 'Zionist jewish' tbh, so 2nd search : 

Neil Clark: The Outing of "David T".


----------



## cantsin (May 4, 2016)

treelover said:


> Bimble is Jewish as she has said herself, I thought as i have repeatedly noted that in the anti-racism movement , that if someone from a minority is offended by what they perceived as racist comments, then they are indeed being discriminated against, Bimble has given over a number of threads examples where she has felt this, goodness knows if its any other minority group, UAF, HNH, twitter, etc, are all over it. Look at the implicit defence by some posters of that Rhodes Scholar idiot because of his minority status, never mind his appalling behaviour. Anyway, like Bimble, I am not posting on this anymore, one million people living in destitution in the UK, wish more on the left would take cognisance of that.



what a load of old gubbins - took me 4 secs search to find the first person Bimble quotes vs HnN/UAR is a Harry place Zionist bigot .

Timewasting bollocks this.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 4, 2016)

cantsin said:


> what a load of old gubbins - took me 4 secs search to find the first person Bimble quotes vs HnN/UAR is a Harry place Zionist bigot .
> 
> Timewasting bollocks this.


You can tell a lot about someone by the sources they rely on


----------



## butchersapron (May 4, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> I seem to recall both treelover and bimble offering praise and likes to said 'U75 poster' for speaking 'uncomfortable truths' on the Cologne thread whilst attacking a number of posters here too who were trying to provide a more nuanced analysis of the situation and possible agenda's at work.
> 
> Said 'U75 poster' with a history of sexism, homophobia and flirtations with fascist rhetoric.


And a ban for anti semitism.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 4, 2016)

bimble said:


> Jesus. The sources alleging that he said 'jews' instead of 'the jews in israel' are not reliable. Stormfront seem to love him though.
> All that seems sure is that he was accused of saying it and hasn't denied it. Maybe he said the Jews in Israel should go back to where they came from, I don't know. That's why I used two question marks and an 'if true'.
> & If I wanted to accuse anyone here of being antisemite I'd have done so. The rush to defend this bloke when apparently nobody knows quite what he said does sadden me though.



Very few people on here, except a few vestigial Swappies, are defending Bennett - he's an arrogant demagogue - let alone "rushing to", they're merely asking people to support any contention with evidence.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 4, 2016)

bimble said:


> Maybe i'm being overly sensitive but being (i think) sarcastically called 'a tireless opponent of anti-semitism' is actually really hurtful. You don't know me or what antisemitism has meant to me. This whole topic is one where i shouldn't be buggering about on the internet with really, too touchy & personal. Especially with the constant accusations of being crafty having a secret agenda etc. Sod this for a game of soldiers.



Some of us have spent over a decade putting over the Jewish side of the coin, despite personally suffering anti-Semitism here and in real life. If critique is too painful for you, then you shouldn't expose yourself to it, naturally. Please don't insinuate that critique is somehow an attack on your Jewishness, rather than on the character of your posts, though. That's disingenuous at best, and dishonest at worst.


----------



## DrRingDing (May 4, 2016)

Meanwhile in the _only democracy in the middle east Israel holding 10 Palestinian journalists, six of them without charges - Israel News
_


----------



## nino_savatte (May 4, 2016)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Long read but Norman hits the nail;
> 
> The American Jewish scholar behind Labour’s ‘antisemitism’ scandal breaks his silence


I posted that earlier up the thread.


----------



## butchersapron (May 4, 2016)

Bernie Gunther said:


> I'd say that's the point for _some_ of those who are doing it.
> 
> Other, largely compatible, goals might include:
> 
> ...



I think having a look at the overlaps - intended or unintended - here may be useful. Ball rollers: An ideological clear neo-liberal core in the labour party consisting of the old staffers, their once media contacts and student/intern types who want into these networks + a big chunk of the PLP who feel they have lost position and place under cobrbyn and will lose further if he leads them into the election.

Intentions=get rid of corbyn but mostly with the aim of rebuilding labour on a new new labour basis for electoral success. Method=extension and intensification of extremism claims (given wider racism is off the cards) and with winks and whistles to muslim takeover narrative. Result=eaten alive by a larger tory dog with the aim of destroying the labour party entire. Method= using far more influential and closer to power media contacts and networks to suggest crisis is engulfing entire labour party including the ball rollers. And they benefit from the first groups desperate attempts to push home their attacks and regain control. They need not even attack that hard yet.

The fascists and third position types in the shadows are interesting as well - in this country they are staunchly pro-israeli state, in france staunchly anti-israeli state, in germany pro-israel. The large muslim influence in the french far-right - think scum like dieudonne. And of course, this stuff feeds into the stuff that has been used as the background noise in this country=_these are not british values, where have they come from, who is attacking british values?_


----------



## nino_savatte (May 4, 2016)

treelover said:


> Bimble is Jewish as she has said herself, I thought as i have repeatedly noted that in the anti-racism movement , that if someone from a minority is offended by what they perceived as racist comments, then they are indeed being discriminated against,


I reckon you're one of those who takes complaints of anti-Semitism seriously but waves away complaints of racism with a "you've got a chip on your shoulder" or "you're paranoid" - as you've done with me in the past.


----------



## butchersapron (May 4, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Very few people on here, except a few vestigial Swappies, are defending Bennett - he's an arrogant demagogue - let alone "rushing to", they're merely asking people to support any contention with evidence.


Yes, even before his accusations of theft and racism against some posters from here in 2004 he was seen as a bit of a dishonest lightweight bigmouth. But given the little digression about evans above and the proper use of evidence/irving trial i think the response from bimble to the reporting of what he may have said said has been interesting. Especially after linking to Toube. There's clearly some wider connections existing in the background here - whether they are being freshly formed via google or more long-standing i don't yet know.


----------



## nino_savatte (May 4, 2016)

The Chief Rabbi does his bit for the smear campaign.


> Britain’s chief rabbi has claimed that Jeremy Corbyn’s Labour has a severe problem with antisemitism and warned that the party must not resort to political posturing and empty promises.
> 
> In a newspaper article, Rabbi Ephraim Mirvis said the crisis engulfing Labour had “lifted the lid” on bigotry, and warned that the party’s inquiry into antisemitism must be more than a “sticking plaster” or it would simply worsen the proble
> Chief rabbi: Labour has severe problem with antisemitism



R4's Today programme carried this 'story' then suddenly dropped it by 0830.


----------



## killer b (May 4, 2016)

I think a lot of it u


Bernie Gunther said:


> I'd say that's the point for _some_ of those who are doing it.
> 
> Other, largely compatible, goals might include:
> 
> ...


It's the perfect dead cat really, as far as the tories are concerned - serves a load of different purposes.

- Keeps Labour distracted and on the back foot in the run up to the locals, having to deal with this clusterfuck instead of keeping the focus on Tory policy failures
- Makes Labour criticism of their own racist campaigning less credible
- Stirs up a whole load of infighting among Labour activists and supporters - and has flushed out a load of people with... _unsophisticated_ views on the Israel/Palestine conflict for screenshotting & later use.


----------



## Dogsauce (May 4, 2016)

nino_savatte said:


> The Chief Rabbi does his bit for the smear campaign.
> 
> 
> R4's Today programme carried this 'story' then suddenly dropped it by 0830.



BBC newspaper review also described Labour's 'problems with antisemitism' as 'dominating the news again' when it appeared on the cover of two papers.  They're very heavily invested in this story and seem to be talking it up constantly.  Who's pulling the strings?


----------



## teqniq (May 4, 2016)

All the parties whose interests currently intersect over this as usefully pointed out mostly by Bernie above.


----------



## nino_savatte (May 4, 2016)

Dogsauce said:


> Who's pulling the strings?



I'll give you three guesses. He's Australian, he's a racist and he's Dan Hodge's bessie mate.


----------



## teqniq (May 4, 2016)

Finally Finklestien's opinions on this whole nasty mess have made it to at least one major UK publication


----------



## Doctor Carrot (May 4, 2016)

Cameron working himself into an utter lather over this on PMQs, answered none of Corbyn's questions and instead banged on about Corbyn being a 'friend' of Hamas, the Hamas charter and blah blah.


----------



## Doctor Carrot (May 4, 2016)

Dogsauce said:


> BBC newspaper review also described Labour's 'problems with antisemitism' as 'dominating the news again' when it appeared on the cover of two papers.  They're very heavily invested in this story and seem to be talking it up constantly.  Who's pulling the strings?



It's so transparently a smear campaign now it's laughable.  I think they risk going too far with it if they carry on much longer.


----------



## killer b (May 4, 2016)

Doctor Carrot said:


> Cameron working himself into an utter lather over this on PMQs, answered none of Corbyn's questions and instead banged on about Corbyn being a 'friend' of Hamas, the Hamas charter and blah blah.


yeah, that's what this was for (among other things) - they've been pushing this narrative since before he was leader. Presume they had most of the info they're using now since before he was leader too.


----------



## Doctor Carrot (May 4, 2016)

killer b said:


> yeah, that's what this was for (among other things) - they've been pushing this narrative since before he was leader. Presume they had most of the info they're using now since before he was leader too.



Good point, the whole Hamas thing was brewing before Corbyn got elected.  I think the electorate will see through it.  Cameron pretty much shrugged his shoulders about rising homelessness, the Rowntree report about destitution, rising numbers going to food banks again etc but got all red faced and shouty at Corbyn and demanded he publically denounce his apparent friendship with Hamas.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (May 4, 2016)

Labour doing well in the locals tomorrow would be hilarious. Just for shits and giggles I hope it's a landslide.


----------



## teqniq (May 4, 2016)

Yes I think/hope that maybe they've gone too far with this.


----------



## Tom A (May 4, 2016)

Doctor Carrot said:


> Good point, the whole Hamas thing was brewing before Corbyn got elected.  I think the electorate will see through it.  Cameron pretty much shrugged his shoulders about rising homelessness, the Rowntree report about destitution, rising numbers going to food banks again etc but got all red faced and shouty at Corbyn and demanded he publically denounce his apparent friendship with Hamas.


I've always thought that at the end of the day this alone would not put off people from voting Labour, since austerity, the NHS, etc is what voters are really concerned about. OTOH, a right-wing local Labour Party where I live (Manchester) who's leader is in cahoots with George Osbourne does put me off, although my ward candidate (and sitting councillor) seems to be fairly sympathetic towards social security claimants, but probably not so much that she will vote against yet more cuts to council services. Tempted to vote Green (personally know the candidate and he's pretty sound) but they will have no chance and any small drop in the Labour vote will be a massive boon to Corbyn's enemies.


----------



## killer b (May 4, 2016)

There's no landslide tomorrow, sorry. Maybe Khan, but the turnout is going to be pretty shit (postal votes are well down on the last stand-alone locals) so don't expect anything exciting.


----------



## Tom A (May 4, 2016)

A pity that Sadiq Khan once thought it was okay to describe anti-Islamist Muslims as "Uncle Toms".


----------



## butchersapron (May 4, 2016)

Tom A said:


> A pity that Sadiq Khan once thought it was okay to describe anti-Islamist Muslims as "Uncle Toms".


Who says he was referring to anti-islamist muslims? He might well have been referring to tory muslims. Dodgy bit of editorialising there.


----------



## Tom A (May 4, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Who says he was referring to anti-islamist muslims? He might well have been referring to tory muslims. Dodgy bit of editorialising there.


Khan was referring to Quilliam, according to the Daily Mail. I initially linked to the Indie because I doubted people would take an article from the Mail at face value even if in this incidence it went into further detail.


----------



## teqniq (May 4, 2016)

The Quilliam foundation is completely dodgy tbh.


----------



## Tom A (May 4, 2016)

teqniq said:


> The Quilliam foundation is completely dodgy tbh.


They do some up with some valid points at times, particularly regarding the regressive left's appeasement and tacit support of Islamists. Regardless, describing them as "Uncle Toms" was never going to go down well.


----------



## butchersapron (May 4, 2016)

Tom A said:


> Khan was referring to Quilliam, according to the Daily Mail. I initially linked to the Indie because I doubted people would take an article from the Mail at face value even if in is incidence it went into further detail.


I'm not sure it's as clear cut as that. They say he was asked about why he worked with groups _like_ QF - we need to see the question and whether it referred specifically to QF. That bit is not included in the attached video for some reason. Hearing only an answer always make me suspicious.


----------



## Tom A (May 4, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> I'm not sure it's as clear cut as that. They say he was asked about why he worked with groups _like_ QF - we need to see the question and whether it referred specifically to QF. That bit is not included in the attached video for some reason. Hearing only an answer always make me suspicious.


The Daily Mail link was shared by Quilliam's own FB page (should have made that clear in post 1388), although I can't find anything else on their FB page or their website.


----------



## Cid (May 4, 2016)

Fucking hell it's the briefest of references...


----------



## butchersapron (May 4, 2016)

Tom A said:


> The Daily Mail link was shared by Quilliam's own FB page (should have made that clear in post 1388), although I can't find anything else on their FB page or their website.


Again, doesn't mean anything beyond it fitting with their own agenda.


----------



## Cid (May 4, 2016)

Full context (at about 4:10):



And the first part of the interview...


----------



## killer b (May 4, 2016)

They appear to have an extensive archive of press tv recordings at cchq.


----------



## Cid (May 4, 2016)

It's transparently clear that someone is sitting on youtube, trawling searches like 'sadiq kahn extremist', 'sadiq khan hamas' etc.

e2a: by which I mean they're trawling for stuff that could be cast as anti-semitic.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 4, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Labour doing well in the locals tomorrow would be hilarious. Just for shits and giggles I hope it's a landslide.


Yeh well there'll be shits get in anyway


----------



## Pickman's model (May 4, 2016)

bimble said:


> what? who is neil clark, why should I care what he said etc. Anyway, I like i said, best to ignore the whinging of anyone who says stuff you don't like. Carry on.


Yeh but with friends like yours, like toube and treelover, you don't really need enemies


----------



## Wilf (May 4, 2016)

Cid said:


> It's transparently clear that someone is sitting on youtube, trawling searches like 'sadiq kahn extremist', 'sadiq khan hamas' etc.
> 
> e2a: by which I mean they're trawling for stuff that could be cast as anti-semitic.


Google Trends - Web Search interest - Worldwide, 2004 - present

I'm not very savvy at tracking theses things down, was trying to isolate where the searches are located within England.  Expected to see a big spike in London based searches around anti-Semitism, but it looks like Birmingham is the place.


----------



## gosub (May 4, 2016)

Wilf said:


> Google Trends - Web Search interest - Worldwide, 2004 - present
> 
> I'm not very savvy at tracking theses things down, was trying to isolate where the searches are located within England.  Expected to see a big spike in London based searches around anti-Semitism, but it looks like Birmingham is the place.


Though Mensch was in New York


----------



## Pickman's model (May 4, 2016)

Wilf said:


> Google Trends - Web Search interest - Worldwide, 2004 - present
> 
> I'm not very savvy at tracking theses things down, was trying to isolate where the searches are located within England.  Expected to see a big spike in London based searches around anti-Semitism, but it looks like Birmingham is the place.


Yeh it's cheaper to get the staff there


----------



## Pickman's model (May 4, 2016)

gosub said:


> Though Mensch was in New York


Doesn't that suggest to you as it does to me some of lm's past searches?


----------



## Cid (May 4, 2016)

Wilf said:


> Google Trends - Web Search interest - Worldwide, 2004 - present
> 
> I'm not very savvy at tracking theses things down, was trying to isolate where the searches are located within England.  Expected to see a big spike in London based searches around anti-Semitism, but it looks like Birmingham is the place.



It's a relative measure. Hard to get much understanding from it other than knowing when something is more popular than it usually is.


----------



## gosub (May 4, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Doesn't that suggest to you as it does to me some of lm's past searches?


which was the point, they were all LM searches


----------



## gosub (May 4, 2016)

Cid said:


> It's a relative measure. Hard to get much understanding from it other than knowing when something is more popular than it usually is.


Google Trends - Web Search interest - Worldwide, 2004 - present


----------



## Cid (May 4, 2016)

gosub said:


> Google Trends - Web Search interest - Worldwide, 2004 - present



Yes, it tells you that anti-semitism related terms are er... 'trending' (an oft inappropriate word) at the moment. It doesn't tell you what the base level is.


----------



## gosub (May 4, 2016)

Cid said:


> Yes, it tells you that anti-semitism related terms are er... 'trending' (an oft inappropriate word) at the moment. It doesn't tell you what the base level is.



No it tells you they are trawling zionism more than they are trawling anti semitic.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 4, 2016)

gosub said:


> which was the point, they were all LM searches


Yeh I thought we'd been through this or something very similar from lm before


----------



## Cid (May 4, 2016)

gosub said:


> No it tells you they are trawling zionism more than they are trawling anti semitic.



Eh? for one thing the figures are practically the same... What it is telling us is that a lot more people than usually search those terms are searching those terms now. This is hardly surprising given the last few days.

e2a: ah, see your point now.


----------



## Wilf (May 4, 2016)

gosub said:


> Google Trends - Web Search interest - Worldwide, 2004 - present


Yeah, I got that. I was really interested if there was a way of getting highly localised data to see where the searches are taking place within London.  You'd expect to see a high volume of searches in Westminster itself, in the various party HQs and also around newspaper offices.  Like I say, I'm not very tech savvy, but I'd imagine that data exists.  Idle curiosity but I thought it would be fun to get a visual on the Westminster village obsession of the moment.


----------



## gosub (May 4, 2016)

Cid said:


> Eh? for one thing the figures are practically the same... What it is telling us is that a lot more people than usually search those terms are searching those terms now. This is hardly surprising given the last few days.
> 
> e2a: ah, see your point now.


tbf seems to be a lot of people in Bradford going "what the hells Zionism?"  but then they have just had their MP suspended


----------



## gosub (May 4, 2016)

Wilf said:


> Yeah, I got that. I was really interested if there was a way of getting highly localised data to see where the searches are taking place within London.  You'd expect to see a high volume of searches in Westminster itself, in the various party HQs and also around newspaper offices.  Like I say, I'm not very tech savvy, but I'd imagine that data exists.  Idle curiosity but I thought it would be fun to get a visual on the Westminster village obsession of the moment.


That would cost I imagine.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 4, 2016)

gosub said:


> That would cost I imagine.


Free for Gchq mind


----------



## cantsin (May 5, 2016)

Blairite Unionist Kiesza  Dudgale blaming Scots Labs impending electoral shitshow on ..... ' the anti  semitism  row'  http://gu.com/.p/4tpbe/stw

Possibly nearing peak 'anti semitism row ' bollocks now ...


----------



## William of Walworth (May 5, 2016)

cantsin said:


> Blairite Unionist Kiesza  Dudgale blaming Scots Labs impending electoral shitshow on ..... ' the anti  semitism  row'  http://gu.com/.p/4tpbe/stw
> 
> Possibly nearing peak 'anti semitism row ' bollocks now ...




Pointless excuse-making, given that SNP were always on for a big win anyway. Or rather Nicola Sturgeon was


----------



## William of Walworth (May 5, 2016)

This 'anti-semitism row' bollocks really is bollocks though. Whatever peakthere was init should have been reaches after Naz Shah gave her pretty thorough apology. 

Not enough has been said -- away from on here --about Lynton Crosby and Scumbag Fawkes 'roles in shitstirring it up. The BBC (especially) and also Guardian's wilingness to go along with their agenda, without ever mentioning them. has been a fucking disgrace, albeit no surprise. And too many 'Labour' people have been Crosby's willing stooges too. That's also a disgrace, given that Corbyn has done pretty much everything that any reasonable person would want-- stress there on 'reasonable'! 

None of this takes away from my view that Ken Livingstone has been an utter twat, mind you.


----------



## teqniq (May 5, 2016)




----------



## killer b (May 5, 2016)

Kenan Malik is good here: can't find much to disagree about.


----------



## butchersapron (May 5, 2016)

killer b said:


> Kenan Malik is good here: can't find much to disagree about.


I almost wrote earlier in the week that the left doesn't have a problem with anti-semitism, it has a problem with conspiracy theorists who think they're on the left. And it does, but that's a whole different problem than labours.


----------



## chilango (May 5, 2016)

I think Malik is spot on there.

With one caveat.

It doesn't apply to the whole of "the left" but rather to a certain noisy subset of it - that the likes of the SWP, Momentum, Left Unity, Respect etc. and their fellow travellers in Labour are good examples of.

That's not "the Left" though.

Then, as butchers mentioned there's the conspiracists who've infected other sections of the left (e.g. Occupy) in recent years.


----------



## killer b (May 5, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> I almost wrote earlier in the week that the left doesn't have a problem with anti-semitism, it has a problem with conspiracy theorists who think they're on the left. And it does, but that's a whole different problem than labours.


A whole load of those conspiracy theorists are now members of or vocal supporters of Labour (or at least Corbyn's leadership) - which is what, more than anything IMO, has given this attack traction.


----------



## butchersapron (May 5, 2016)

killer b said:


> A whole load of those conspiracy theorists are now members of or vocal supporters of Labour (or at least Corbyn's leadership) - which is what, more than anything IMO, has given this attack traction.


Yes, i did add something about the newer (and i think temporary) members but deleted it. It's that crossover section that will keep this alive (and they are now also in the other section that chilango mentioned). But they still aren't really labour - they're just there on holiday.


----------



## chilango (May 5, 2016)

...and I'm sure I don't need to add this but it's all a consequence of the retreat from *class.*


----------



## killer b (May 5, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Yes, i did add something about the newer (and i think temporary) members but deleted it. It's that crossover section that will keep this alive (and they are now also in the other section that chilango mentioned). But they still aren't really labour - they're just there on holiday.


And pretty much inactive, except online as far as I can tell. I've been out canvassing with my dad a few times the past few weeks and the only feet on the ground I've seen round here are long term members.


----------



## butchersapron (May 5, 2016)

chilango said:


> ...and I'm sure I don't need to add this but it's all a consequence of the retreat from *class.*


...and the fecking internet


----------



## killer b (May 5, 2016)

Lol.


----------



## chilango (May 5, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> ...and the fecking internet



...and the end of apartheid.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (May 5, 2016)

killer b said:


> Kenan Malik is good here: can't find much to disagree about.



Under the guise of balance, Malik concedes far too much to the right. The racism of the tory party and the so-called 'antisemitism' of the labour party are nothing like equivalent. Antisemitism in the labour party amounts to a tiny handful of comments on social media, racism in the conservatives permeates every level of the party, right up to Cameron himself. Imagine, for example, if Corbyn had referred to jews as a 'swarm' or suggested that Cameron displayed a lack of commitment to the British people by meeting  'a bunch of jews' - just as Cameron talked about the migrants in Calais. And if Corbyn referring to Hamas and Hizbullah as 'friends' indicates his willingness to turn a blind eye to antisemitism, can the same be said of Cameron for his far cosier relationship with Saudi Arabia - the world's largest disseminator of nazi-style antisemitism? 

The crisis in the labour party is not an antisemitism crisis, its a crisis of loyalty in the PLP, so much so that they are largely happy to join with the tories, the rightwing media and the Israel lobby in smearing their own leadership, party and membership for factional gain. When anti-racist jews like Tony Greenstein and Jackie Walker get booted out of the party at the behest of rightwing Israel lobbyists you know that something has seriously gone wrong.


----------



## butchersapron (May 5, 2016)

It's a short comment piece specifically on thew left and labour, not a polemical attack on the right.


----------



## killer b (May 5, 2016)

Jeff Robinson said:


> The crisis in the labour party is not an antisemitism crisis, its a crisis of loyalty in the PLP, so much so that they are largely happy to join with the tories, the rightwing media and the Israel lobby in smearing their own leadership, party and membership for factional gain.


Yes - but it's been enabled by the conspiracy theorists anti-semites who currently pollute left-wing discourse. The attacks work because there's just enough truth in them.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (May 5, 2016)

killer b said:


> Yes - but it's been enabled by the conspiracy theorists anti-semites who currently pollute left-wing discourse. The attacks work because there's just enough truth in them.



There will always be a small number of idiots and bigots though - there isn't too much you can do about that. What you can do is avoid exaggerating the importance and influence of such people - and damaging your own party in the process. But sadly, a confluence of interests has done just that.


----------



## Brainaddict (May 5, 2016)

Jeff Robinson said:


> There will always be a small number of idiots and bigots though - there isn't too much you can do about that. What you can do is avoid exaggerating the importance and influence of such people - and damaging your own party in the process. But sadly, a confluence of interests has done just that.


It's true it is the crackpots around the edge of the left who are the worst, and they have little to no actual influence. But I have often seen clearly anti-Semitic conspiracy theorists not being challenged by people, when if they had made other sorts of racist comments they would have been. I've also seen very clumsy anti-Israel rhetoric not being challenged, when other language is carefully policed - and this is more mainstream.

But still, I find myself annoyed at joining in the soul-searching at this particular moment, given it's all been sparked by a bunch of anti-Corbyn partisans who can't even do any soul-searching because they don't fucking have any souls. But as killer b says, there's just enough truth for the attack to work. There were a fair number of people on my fb feed who last week thought that the best use of their energy was to defend what Ken Livingstone said. That doesn't look pretty, particularly when I know they'd come down like a ton of bricks on any clumsily worded sentiments about immigration or muslims.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (May 5, 2016)

Brainaddict said:


> It's true it is the crackpots around the edge of the left who are the worst, and they have little to no actual influence. But I have often seen clearly anti-Semitic conspiracy theorists not being challenged by people, when if they had made other sorts of racist comments they would have been. I've also seen very clumsy anti-Israel rhetoric not being challenged, when other language is carefully policed - and this is more mainstream.
> 
> But still, I find myself annoyed at joining in the soul-searching at this particular moment, given it's all been sparked by a bunch of anti-Corbyn partisans who can't even do any soul-searching because they don't fucking have any souls. But as killer b says, there's just enough truth for the attack to work. There were a fair number of people on my fb feed who last week thought that the best use of their energy was to defend what Ken Livingstone said. That doesn't look pretty, particularly when I know they'd come down like a ton of bricks on any clumsily worded sentiments about immigration or muslims.



Yes, that's really well put. Very hard to do soul-searching when you're being attacked by people with no souls! I think the left could and should definitely do better in all the ways you identify, but I get defensively reactive when these sort of allegations are leveled by the utter chancers and charlatans of the right.


----------



## butchersapron (May 5, 2016)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Yes, that's really well put. Very hard to do soul-searching when you're being attacked by people with no souls! I think the left could and should definitely do better in all the ways you identify, but I get defensively reactive when these sort of allegations are leveled by the utter chancers and charlatans of the right.


But why? If you're on solid ground then it should be easy enough to turn their attacks on them.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (May 5, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> But why? If you're on solid ground then it should be easy enough to turn their attacks on them.



I think it is easy to turn the attacks on them, and that's what the labour party should have done. But they didn't. For a variety of reasons they joined with the Tories in attacking their own party instead. That's what's so frustrating.


----------



## nino_savatte (May 5, 2016)

Jeff Robinson said:


> I think it is easy to turn the attacks on them, and that's what the labour party should have done. But they didn't. For a variety of reasons they joined with the Tories in attacking their own party instead. That's what's so frustrating.


This is what they did in the 1980s when the party was faced with accusations that they were dominated by Militant. It seems they've learnt no lessons and as I've said before: Labour suffers from a crippling inferiority complex. If they returned fire instead of running scared for the hills, they might get somewhere. The Tories are racist shits and when this is pointed out to them, they wave it aside. There seems to be a hierarchy of racisms in their mind too: anti-Semitism comes top and other forms, like anti-Ziganism, come bottom.


----------



## butchersapron (May 5, 2016)

Jeff Robinson said:


> I think it is easy to turn the attacks on them, and that's what the labour party should have done. But they didn't. For a variety of reasons they joined with the Tories in attacking their own party instead. That's what's so frustrating.


I was on about more on the personal level though - you said that you acted 'defensively reactive'. Labour can't really turn the tables as they're all at the same game and have been for ages. All piss in the same pot, all use communalism (or it's more acceptable electoral face) when they can. 

The reason i picked up on what you said about how you may react is because i was later today going to make a point about another consequence of all this - helping to forge or strengthen bonds between the loon types and the left as represented by someone like Livingstone - someone who took money from the sun to write for them in the years immediately after hillsborough and not once, but week after week. Someone who took money from anti-semitic and holocaust denying press-tv to present a program, not once, but week after week. Someone who called on the population of london to rise up and break RMT strikes and possibly the union. This little crossover is going to come out of this with new connections and new confidence - conspiracy and anti-semitism re-affirmed. And that spells trouble for a lot of people.


----------



## cantsin (May 5, 2016)

killer b said:


> Yes -* but it's been enabled by the conspiracy theorists anti-semites who currently pollute left-wing discourse*. The attacks work because there's just enough truth in them.



going round in circles here, but what evidence is there  of any conspiraloons polluting 'left wing discourse' as opposed to just doing their usual bullshit thing online ?


----------



## DrRingDing (May 5, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Free for Gchq mind



.....and the mossad. 

The state of israel loves a bit of genocide You're not allowed to know if Israel sold weapons to Rwanda during its genocide


----------



## killer b (May 5, 2016)

cantsin said:


> going round in circles here, but what evidence is there  of any conspiraloons polluting 'left wing discourse' as opposed to just doing their usual bullshit thing online ?


I don't have any detailed analysis, but I see and am involved with a lot of left wing discourse. I can see it happening.


----------



## cantsin (May 5, 2016)

killer b said:


> I don't have any detailed analysis, but I see and am involved with a lot of left wing discourse. I can see it happening.



aka : more hearsay


----------



## killer b (May 5, 2016)

Do you think I have an agenda?


----------



## Sifta (May 5, 2016)

Interesting article:

How UK Labour moderates played the Jewish card, and why they used us to do it

from "the director of EIPA, a multi-disciplined pro-Israel advocacy Group based in Brussels"

points the finger for the entire plot squarely at the Blairites


----------



## Tom A (May 5, 2016)

teqniq said:


>




Well if you look at what Jackie Walker actually said, it does smack of conspiratorial thinking of the type the left can well do without, and the type that definitely feeds into anti-Semitic discourse and justifies anti-Semitic beliefs, in a similar vein to "the Rothschilds caused the world wars and 9/11":



> “As I’m sure you know, millions more Africans were killed in the African holocaust and their oppression continues today on a global scale in a way it doesn’t for Jews,” Ms Walker wrote.
> 
> “Many Jews (my ancestors too) were the chief financiers of the sugar and slave trade which is of course why there were so many early synagogues in the Caribbean. So who are victims and what does it mean? We are victims and perpetrators to some extent through choice,” she added.



That sounds to me like an accusation that the Jews were responsible for the bloodshed in Africa to me.



chilango said:


> It doesn't apply to the whole of "the left" but rather to a certain noisy subset of it - that the likes of the SWP, Momentum, Left Unity, Respect etc. and their fellow travellers in Labour are good examples of.
> 
> That's not "the Left" though.



Well as someone who has in one form or another been involved in "the left" for over a decade these groups have if not dominated had an omnipresence amongst anything that advocates a position to the left of the status quo. Some groups are worse for this than others, I do not need to mention the many fuck-ups that the SWP/Respect are responsible for, Momentum seems to be very much a mixed bag, in Manchester a friend tells me it is mostly a conspiraloon free zone but in other cities they make up a very loud minority to say the least, Cambridge Momentum particularly had a problem with such people. I was in Left Unity till the end of last year and we tried to position ourselves as being more sensible and in touch with the working class than the SWP et al. but we were forever tripping over ourselves and turned out to have multiple sects within a sect squabbling with each other. Then there was the debacle of the person who proposed we consider "the Islamic Caliphate" (i.e. Daesh) a progressive thing - it was only voted for by himself and the seconder, but it attracted unwanted negative attention nonetheless. However IME the people I know who are still in LU are still decent community campaigners.



> then, as butchers mentioned there's the conspiracists who've infected other sections of the left (e.g. Occupy) in recent years.



Again IME they crop up depressingly often, Occupy Manchester became swamped by them and they also were a significant contingent of the anti-fracking campaigns here. They tend to currently campaign under the banner of "Wake up (town)!" - which possibly explains why they thankfully are not a major force in Manchester Momentum. But to sum up, I have learned that in the left you should not give such people an inch in case they take a mile - and often facepalm at the times when I see conspiratorial bullshit appearing on my FB news feed, even from relatively well balanced people.



cantsin said:


> going round in circles here, but what evidence is there  of any conspiraloons polluting 'left wing discourse' as opposed to just doing their usual bullshit thing online ?



They overran Occupy in many places outside of London - and there are signs they are going to try and do the same with Nuit Debout. The V-for-Vendetta brigade and the David Icke fan club (there is overlap between the two) tend to be out in force during major protests. The anti-fracking campaigns particularly attracted them like flies to a corpse. Going further back - and this is one of the more striking examples, they dragged Indymedia UK though a pile of stinking smelly dog shit and utterly discredited it as a credible news source (no thanks to certain members of the editorial collective in charge) - although even in its heyday a lot of the content coming from the newswire was iffy to say the least.

Edit to add: Also the Green Party did (and probably still very much does, if not more so now) have its fair share of kooks and cranks, and I am sure Urbanites remember Tony Gosling, the anti-Semitic, homophobic conspiraloon who frequently stood as a councillor as a Green before he was expelled in 2008 - and David Icke of course was once a prominent Green. Also they had their own controversies surrounding anti-Semitism too.


----------



## SpookyFrank (May 5, 2016)

If the blairites are systematically manufacturing an anti-semitism crisis in Labour, as seems fairly plausible, well I just hope they're proud of themselves.


----------



## Buckaroo (May 5, 2016)

Labour anti-Semitism crisis escalates as Jeremy Corbyn admits to sharing Hitler's vegetarian beliefs


----------



## kebabking (May 5, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> If the blairites are systematically manufacturing an anti-semitism crisis in Labour, as seems fairly plausible, well I just hope they're proud of themselves.



Labours problem is that it's a bit difficult to manufacture something without raw materials - and that material is the mindless witterings of a seemingly endless stream of cranks, conspiracy theorists, idiots and doubtless some very unpleasant individuals within its ranks.

If the leadership had the wit of a sheep it would thank God fasting that this storm blew up 4 years before a general election and may only effect some local elections that even the candidates will have forgotten about by 2020 - its a storm in a teacup, and while it will undoubtedly do Labour some damage, as it bloody well should, its better for labour that it happens now rather that 3 months before a general election...


----------



## DotCommunist (May 5, 2016)

affect. And the point of capitalising on Livingstones twat speak right now is to undermine in the lead up to...todays locals. The labour right are just waiting for a shit showing to further the 'labour in crises' thing.

it is a bit of a clown car tbf, iron corbz needs to get his purge on


----------



## Pickman's model (May 5, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> affect. And the point of capitalising on Livingstones twat speak right now is to undermine in the lead up to...todays locals. The labour right are just waiting for a shit showing to further the 'labour in crises' thing.
> 
> it is a bit of a clown car tbf, iron corbz needs to get his purge on


No leader named jeremy has ever purged a party


----------



## Pickman's model (May 5, 2016)

killer b said:


> Do you think I have an agenda?


I hope you do.


----------



## belboid (May 5, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> No leader named jeremy has ever purged a party


dog owners do have to be a bit careful


----------



## treelover (May 5, 2016)

chilango said:


> I think Malik is spot on there.
> 
> With one caveat.
> 
> ...



Thats a fair amount of people if you include the 100,000(claimed) of Momentum, could you expand on whose is the left apart from them.


----------



## treelover (May 5, 2016)

Brainaddict said:


> It's true it is the crackpots around the edge of the left who are the worst, and they have little to no actual influence. But I have often seen clearly anti-Semitic conspiracy theorists not being challenged by people, when if they had made other sorts of racist comments they would have been. I*'ve also seen very clumsy anti-Israel rhetoric not being challenged, when other language is carefully policed - and this is more mainstream.*
> 
> But still, I find myself annoyed at joining in the soul-searching at this particular moment, given it's all been sparked by a bunch of anti-Corbyn partisans who can't even do any soul-searching because they don't fucking have any souls. But as killer b says, there's just enough truth for the attack to work. There were a fair number of people on my fb feed who last week thought that the best use of their energy was to defend what Ken Livingstone said. That doesn't look pretty, particularly when I know they'd come down like a ton of bricks on any clumsily worded sentiments about immigration or muslims.



Yes, when what you say can see you removed from meetings,etc, this is glaring.


----------



## treelover (May 5, 2016)

Sifta said:


> Interesting article:
> 
> How UK Labour moderates played the Jewish card, and why they used us to do it
> 
> ...




Very interesting, should be circulated.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 5, 2016)

treelover said:


> Thats a fair amount of people if you include the 100,000(claimed) of Momentum, could you expand on whose is the left apart from them.


Not yours mate


----------



## Pickman's model (May 5, 2016)

treelover said:


> Very interesting, should be circulated.


Who would you circulate it to?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 5, 2016)

treelover said:


> Yes, when what you say can see you removed from meetings,etc, this is glaring.


What meetings have you been removed from?


----------



## treelover (May 5, 2016)

Tom A said:


> Well if you look at what Jackie Walker actually said, it does smack of conspiratorial thinking of the type the left can well do without, and the type that definitely feeds into anti-Semitic discourse and justifies anti-Semitic beliefs, in a similar vein to "the Rothschilds caused the world wars and 9/11":
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Good post.


----------



## brogdale (May 5, 2016)

Thought it might be worth just clearing this up...then we can close the thread...

Israeli Justice Minister: It’s Anti-Semitic To Ever Criticize Israel


> Israel’s...Justice Minister, Ayelet Shaked, equated criticism of Israel to anti-Semitism on Wednesday, in light of rising European support for the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions Movement (BDS).
> 
> “*In the past, we saw European leaders speaking against the Jews. Now, we see them speaking against Israel. It is the same anti-Semitism of blood libels, spreading lies, distorting reality and brainwashing people into hating Israel and the Jews,”* Shaked told the Washington Post. “Today, it is not politically correct to be anti-Semitic but being anti-Israeli is acceptable. People who have such anti-Semitic views should not be allowed to hold central leadership positions.”


----------



## cantsin (May 5, 2016)

killer b said:


> Do you think I have an agenda?



am sure we all do on way or t'other


----------



## Cid (May 5, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Thought it might be worth just clearing this up...then we can close the thread...
> 
> Israeli Justice Minister: It’s Anti-Semitic To Ever Criticize Israel
> ​



Ayelet 'annexation' Shaked...


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 5, 2016)

Tom A said:


> Well if you look at what Jackie Walker actually said, it does smack of conspiratorial thinking of the type the left can well do without, and the type that definitely feeds into anti-Semitic discourse and justifies anti-Semitic beliefs, in a similar vein to "the Rothschilds caused the world wars and 9/11":



If someone believes that sort of thing, they are - perforce - lazy or stupid. Minor research of either historic event and what caused those events easily establish reality. Anything else is fantasy masquerading as "insider knowledge", and may or may not be "conspiratorial thinking".



> That sounds to me like an accusation that the Jews were responsible for the bloodshed in Africa to me.



I disagree. It's a reasonably-accurate summation of a minor point of history, making the sort of point that could be deployed at, for example, the livery companies too- who also acted as financiers of merchant ventures that established and then perpetuated the triangular trade.
It's also accurate to say, however, that Jewish financiers were - as mostly smaller banking concerns - edged out into a more local market, brokering and raising loans for ships and cargoes, as the trade expanded. 



> Well as someone who has in one form or another been involved in "the left" for over a decade these groups have if not dominated had an omnipresence amongst anything that advocates a position to the left of the status quo. Some groups are worse for this than others, I do not need to mention the many fuck-ups that the SWP/Respect are responsible for, Momentum seems to be very much a mixed bag, in Manchester a friend tells me it is mostly a conspiraloon free zone but in other cities they make up a very loud minority to say the least, Cambridge Momentum particularly had a problem with such people. I was in Left Unity till the end of last year and we tried to position ourselves as being more sensible and in touch with the working class than the SWP et al. but we were forever tripping over ourselves and turned out to have multiple sects within a sect squabbling with each other. Then there was the debacle of the person who proposed we consider "the Islamic Caliphate" (i.e. Daesh) a progressive thing - it was only voted for by himself and the seconder, but it attracted unwanted negative attention nonetheless. However IME the people I know who are still in LU are still decent community campaigners.
> 
> Again IME they crop up depressingly often, Occupy Manchester became swamped by them and they also were a significant contingent of the anti-fracking campaigns here. They tend to currently campaign under the banner of "Wake up (town)!" - which possibly explains why they thankfully are not a major force in Manchester Momentum. But to sum up, I have learned that in the left you should not give such people an inch in case they take a mile - and often facepalm at the times when I see conspiratorial bullshit appearing on my FB news feed, even from relatively well balanced people.
> 
> ...



This is the rub of grass-roots democratic politics - the more inclusive you wish to be, the more likely you are to have to deal with the George Galloway and David Icke _manques_ who hover on the fringes of both left and right.


----------



## Sprocket. (May 6, 2016)

Is this latest response from Unite going to put the Tories on the defensive back foot as much as Labour has been lately?

Equality commission should examine 'dog-whistle' Conservative party beset by racism

http://www.unitetheunion.org/uploaded/documents/(JN7434) A4 Tory Racism Brochure SIN11-26629.pdf


----------



## chilango (May 6, 2016)

treelover said:


> Thats a fair amount of people if you include the 100,000(claimed) of Momentum, could you expand on whose is the left apart from them.



..well, all of those on the left who isn't in one of those groups. Obviously. The SP for a small example. Most of the class struggle anarchists. All the more libertarian socialist/communist types. Big chunks of the TUs. 

More importantly though all of us who down the pub, at the school gate, in the workplace etc. would be seen by others as "left". 

There's lots of us.


----------



## J Ed (May 6, 2016)

Why is Ken Livingstone still on TV talking about Hitler? He was doing it again today on Sky News.


----------



## DotCommunist (May 6, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Why is Ken Livingstone still on TV talking about Hitler? He was doing it again today on Sky News.


its clear that he just has to be right. And if that means mentioning hitler thrice daily then so be it


----------



## Bernie Gunther (May 6, 2016)

Sprocket. said:


> Is this latest response from Unite going to put the Tories on the defensive back foot as much as Labour has been lately?
> 
> Equality commission should examine 'dog-whistle' Conservative party beset by racism
> 
> http://www.unitetheunion.org/uploaded/documents/(JN7434) A4 Tory Racism Brochure SIN11-26629.pdf



Unlikely to get as much help from the media clique ...


----------



## J Ed (May 6, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> its clear that he just has to be right. And if that means mentioning hitler thrice daily then so be it



Even the people who were monstering him don't give a shit anymore and want him to talk about something other than Hitler. It's just ridiculous.


----------



## treelover (May 8, 2016)

> *Jewish father says he has been driven out of his East London home after being attacked thirty times in three years by racist asian thugs who screamed 'kill the Jew' *
> 
> *Plaistow resident says the area is becoming hotbed of anti-Semitism*
> *52-year-old says he has been repeated abused and attacked in public*
> ...



This is really shocking, even removing the D/M approach, has there been any protests to support him, challlenge what has happened?, UAF over to you.


----------



## killer b (May 8, 2016)

I'm not sure if UAF bother checking urban for suggested actions - why don't you email them?


----------



## treelover (May 8, 2016)

Its rheotorical, we know they are hypocrities, any view on the incidents, from urbanites posting on here it would seem there are lots of anti-fascists in the area, maybe they could go round and support the guy.

btw, the DM's report is sensationalised, but something grim has happened there.


----------



## killer b (May 8, 2016)

treelover said:


> Its rheotorical, we know they are hypocrities, any view on the incidents, from urbanites posting on here it would seem there are lots of anti-fascists in the area, maybe they could go round and support the guy.


Have you checked that they haven't?


----------



## treelover (May 8, 2016)

You really think they have?, there are masses of posts on anti-fascism on here, havent seen anything about it.


----------



## YouSir (May 8, 2016)

treelover said:


> Its rheotorical, we know they are hypocrities, any view on the incidents, from urbanites posting on here it would seem there are lots of anti-fascists in the area, maybe they could go round and support the guy.
> 
> btw, the DM's report is sensationalised, but something grim has happened there.



Maybe you could?


----------



## treelover (May 8, 2016)

I don't live in London.

Why not respond to the article, its horrible, if this guy was from any other group there would be a quick response from those who fight fascism, etc.


----------



## DotCommunist (May 8, 2016)

labour members to a man eh.

horrible attacks no doubt and I hope those involved meet the other end of a fist for a change but the DM? you know why they are doing this treelover. Normally they wouldn't give a tuppeny fuck about racist attacks. Happy to do them in print themselves.


----------



## YouSir (May 8, 2016)

treelover said:


> I don't live in london.



Megabus is cheap. Mind you, criticising is cheaper.


----------



## treelover (May 8, 2016)

killer b
I know that, it stands on its own, my question stands, what support has he had from people who declare themselves anti-fascists, etc?

I posted it on here because its about anti-semitism.


----------



## killer b (May 8, 2016)

treelover said:


> I know that, it stands on its own, my question stands, what support has he had from people who declare themselves anti-fascists, etc?


I don't know. Why are you asking here? You're probably best getting in touch with whatever anti-fascist groups operate in that area and ask them. You certainly aren't in any position to assume the worst about them without checking are you?


----------



## treelover (May 8, 2016)

I don't have any agenda,  just think this should get the same response as if it was any other series of racist incidents, why is that so problematic?

 will leave it there.


----------



## DotCommunist (May 8, 2016)

in a thread about labour anti semitism, linked to a daily mail story deliberatly highlighting something they never usually would in order to fuel an agenda. Why did you not post it on threads dedicated to antifascism btw?


----------



## killer b (May 8, 2016)

treelover said:


> will leave it there.


No you won't. You'll continue posting tedious 'whither the left!?' posts and try to connect every fucking issue in the world to how shit the SWP are until judgement day.


----------



## treelover (May 8, 2016)

Oh dear, if i had posted it on the AF threads, there would have been acusations of an agenda, etc, as has happened before when someone posts stuff about racist activity not from the far right.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 8, 2016)

treelover said:


> I don't live in London


Lucky auld london


----------



## Tom A (May 8, 2016)

On the left, there *is* unfortunately this mentality of some oppressions being more equal than others - some result in instant outrage, others generally get paid lip service to at the most.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 8, 2016)

YouSir said:


> Maybe you could?


Would you really wish that on someone?


----------



## Red Cat (May 8, 2016)

treelover said:


> I don't have any agenda,  just think this should get the same response as if it was any other series of racist incidents, why is that so problematic?
> 
> will leave it there.



You think the worst of everybody every time. Its like a tic.


----------



## killer b (May 8, 2016)

treelover said:


> Oh dear, if i had posted it on the AF threads, there would have been acusations of an agenda, etc, as has happened before when someone posts stuff about racist activity not from the far right.


I don't understand why you think passive aggressive hectoring is the best way of raising the issue?


----------



## DotCommunist (May 8, 2016)

treelover said:


> Oh dear, if i had posted it on the AF threads, there would have been acusations of an agenda, etc, as has happened before when someone posts stuff about racist activity not from the far right.


ok so you rode your hobby horse into a labour/antisemitism thread. Are we to take it that the attackers were all cohorts of the three pounds now?


----------



## treelover (May 8, 2016)

Why not respond to my question, Tom A has made an attempt.


----------



## treelover (May 8, 2016)

Tom A said:


> On the left, there *is* unfortunately this mentality of some oppressions being more equal than others - some result in instant outrage, others generally get paid lip service to at the most.



The hierarchy of oppression


----------



## Tom A (May 8, 2016)

treelover said:


> The hierarchy of oppression


I do believe the term for this that is currently in vogue is "intersectionality".


----------



## Pickman's model (May 8, 2016)

killer b said:


> I don't understand why you think passive aggressive hectoring is the best way of raising the issue?


it is the only way he raises issues


----------



## Pickman's model (May 8, 2016)

treelover said:


> Oh dear, if i had posted it on the AF threads, there would have been acusations of an agenda, etc, as has happened before when someone posts stuff about racist activity not from the far right.


so you thought you'd post it here where there wouldn't be merely accusations you have an agenda but proof of it for all to see


----------



## treelover (May 8, 2016)

killer b said:


> I don't understand why you think passive aggressive hectoring is the best way of raising the issue?




You are probably right but for me the inconsistencies are so glaring.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 8, 2016)

treelover said:


> btw, the DM's report is sensationalised


the dm sensationalist? never!


----------



## treelover (May 8, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> so you thought you'd post it here where there wouldn't be merely accusations you have an agenda but proof of it for all to see




You have bullied Bimble off Urban you won't bully me off. Though I will be taking a break again soon.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 8, 2016)

treelover said:


> Anyway, like Bimble, I am not posting on this anymore


what a pity that turned out to be a lie.


treelover said:


> You have bullied Bimble off Urban


what a pity that's a lie.





> you won't bully me off. Though I will be taking a break again soon.


news of your prolonged absence is by no means unwelcome.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 8, 2016)

.


----------



## killer b (May 8, 2016)

treelover said:


> You are probably right but for me the inconsistencies are so glaring.


I don't think there can be any doubt that there's  problem with anti-semitism within some muslim communities. But I don't think the lack of a substantial response to this from the (largely white British) 'left' is to do with hierarchies of oppression.

There have always been tensions between different ethnic communities: here there have long been occasional flare-ups between the Afro-Caribbean and Pakistani communities, and - to my knowledge at least - there has been no involvement from local anti-fascist activists in sorting these tensions out - the solutions have come from within those communities. I doubt some UAF activists waving placards would have helped - quite the opposite.

You yourself have been critical of white, middle class anti-racist activists sticking their oar in to working class communities, with little understanding of the pressures and problems those communities face - yet here you are demanding those same activists get involved with conflicts within other communities of which they're likely to have even less understanding of the pressures and problems they face. A bit..._ inconsistent_ don't you think?

That said I don't think we should just necessarily just leave people to fight it out among themselves if we don't have a link to the communities involved - it's difficult though, and is a topic that would benefit discussion without the accusatory tone that you generally bring to the table.


----------



## treelover (May 8, 2016)

Thank you for that considered reply,  I don't completely agree with you of course.


----------



## killer b (May 8, 2016)

what do you disagree with?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 8, 2016)

but answer came there none


----------



## FridgeMagnet (May 8, 2016)

I read a thing in the Mail and although I haven't checked I know nobody is doing anything about whatever it is.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 8, 2016)

treelover said:


> This is really shocking, even removing the D/M approach, has there been any protests to support him, challlenge what has happened?, UAF over to you.



The _Mail_ story is pretty poorly-written and is historically-inaccurate with its claim that thousands of Jews arrived in east London "in the build-up to the Russian revolution". After 1905 (The Aliens Act), far fewer eastern Jews entered the UK The bulk of the _Ashkenazim _started arriving in numbers 60-odd years before that, and the _Sephardim_ in the late 18th century.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 8, 2016)

treelover said:


> You really think they have?, there are masses of posts on anti-fascism on here, havent seen anything about it.



Why would you?
it's certainly the case that Mr Shalom's case hasn't penetrated the media that cater specifically to Jewish interests, such as the JC. How would anti-fascists be aware of something poorly-publicised, especially given how bodies like the CST and the BoDoBJ try to keep this stuff "in-house" in order to deploy such stories to greater effect - say by punting the story to the _Mail_. 
Let's face it, "local anti-fascists sort out anti-Semites" doesn't make as good a story, does it?


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 8, 2016)

Tom A said:


> On the left, there *is* unfortunately this mentality of some oppressions being more equal than others - some result in instant outrage, others generally get paid lip service to at the most.



Analyse it.
In my experience, such reference back to a hierarchy of oppressions *isn't* so much something "on the left", as a device used by the vanguardists to lay claim to the affections of whatever minority interest they're currently courting or, in the case of mainstream politics, whichever minority interest they wish to keep on-side.
Anyone who doesn't realise that the hierarchy of oppressions is a device to divide the class, and treat it accordingly, is a fool.


----------



## Lurdan (May 9, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> it's certainly the case that Mr Shalom's case hasn't penetrated the media that cater specifically to Jewish interests, such as the JC.


One reason for that might be that this isn't a new story. Here's a Newham Recorder article about Mr Shalom from 2011. And in two parts here and here is audio of an interview he gave to yadbyaduk.com in 2014.

Another reason might be that Mr Shalom isn't just a victim but also something of a campaigner. His twitter account is closed to non-followers but the strapline "Nazi Newham run by Labour scum" suggests that there is a political aspect to some of these campaigning activities and my guess is that it's depressingly familiar right wing stuff. His cause has certainly been taken up by some pretty reactionary types. I came across a site, run by a self-described right wing "moderate", which used the above interview as the launching pad for an editorial again back in 2014

Jewish? Living in Newham? Then you’d better get some body armour.


> There is no way would I wish to walk up East Ham High Street North, from the Town Hall in East Ham, to Manor Park Station, a distance of a mile or so, wearing a Kippah. To do so would get me killed, or at the very least injured, not by the sort of Mosleyite thugs of the past (who were effectively seen off by the *43 Group* who operated between 1946 and 1950), but by the imported Islamic hate-mongers of the present. Forty years ago it would have been possible to walk this route in relative safety but not now. Now the ‘Last Jews of Newham’ are facing the same Islamic hatred that the ‘Last Jews of Bagdhad’ and the ‘Last Jews of Tunisia’ faced and in some cases are still facing. Newham is being cleansed of Jews and the Leftists who are aligned with the ideology of Islam are gaining political benefit from the actions of Islamic thugs who are doing the cleansing. This should never have been allowed to happen.



I guess it's unsurprising that the account of Mr Shalom's harassment has been resurrected in the current climate. 

I guess it's also unsurprising  that it should have traction with those who are concerned that opening the ranks of the Labour Party to the great unwashed has let in people with wacky and reactionary ideas. 

Ideas even more wacky and reactionary than the notion that a Labour Government would do anything other than piss on the 'non-aspirational' ? Now that is a worry.


----------



## DotCommunist (May 9, 2016)

treelover said:


> You have bullied Bimble off Urban you won't bully me off. Though I will be taking a break again soon.


I wasn't going to respond but then I thought I should. Bimble, in every discussion that wasn't what you are having for your fucking tea tonight weighed in so many backhanded slurs to me and others. I argue in good faith, always. Why else bother? but having a goldsmith graduate routinely cunt me off with insinuations did not endear me to her. And I gave her a fair shake. I swallowed things. But it didn't follow, I was not taken in the same good faith and was given more insinuations. So if the poster in question has fucked off then good. And I don't think I'm being a cunt here either, I give every man or woman a fair shake. Didnt get one back


----------



## Pickman's model (May 11, 2016)

treelover 
i'm waiting on your apologies for lying.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 11, 2016)

treelover proof of one of your lies


----------



## Pickman's model (May 11, 2016)

treelover said:


> Anyway, like Bimble, I am not posting on this anymore, one million people living in destitution in the UK, wish more on the left would take cognisance of that.


oh: and proof of the other


----------



## stethoscope (May 11, 2016)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I read a thing in the Mail and although I haven't checked I know nobody is doing anything about whatever it is.



Made me lol


----------



## stethoscope (May 11, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> I wasn't going to respond but then I thought I should. Bimble, in every discussion that wasn't what you are having for your fucking tea tonight weighed in so many backhanded slurs to me and others. I argue in good faith, always. Why else bother? but having a goldsmith graduate routinely cunt me off with insinuations did not endear me to her. And I gave her a fair shake. I swallowed things. But it didn't follow, I was not taken in the same good faith and was given more insinuations. So if the poster in question has fucked off then good. And I don't think I'm being a cunt here either, I give every man or woman a fair shake. Didnt get one back



This is pretty much my criticism too.

Care to comment @treelover or have you done your usual abandon thread thing now on this one?


----------



## nino_savatte (May 11, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Analyse it.
> In my experience, such reference back to a hierarchy of oppressions *isn't* so much something "on the left", as a device used by the vanguardists to lay claim to the affections of whatever minority interest they're currently courting or, in the case of mainstream politics, whichever minority interest they wish to keep on-side.
> Anyone who doesn't realise that the hierarchy of oppressions is a device to divide the class, and treat it accordingly, is a fool.


Bingo. This is what I was trying to put across to someone who was getting quite aeriated when I dared to tell him/her that whenever the issue of [anti-black/anti-Roma/anti-Chinese] racism is mentioned, it's often greeted with a 'you have a chip on your shoulder',  'get a sense of humour' or it's ignored completely. Yet complaints of anti-Semitism are dealt with seriously and swiftly. All forms of racism need to be taken seriously and dealt with on equal terms with anti-Semitism. 

It's not surprising that the media has now turned its attention to other things. Gawd bless our free press, eh?


----------



## teqniq (May 11, 2016)

Iain McNichol: Reinstate Jacqueline Walker to the Labour Party


----------



## Dogsauce (May 12, 2016)

Suddenly nobody gives a fuck about antisemitism.  It's almost as if the whole thing was concocted to harm Labour's electoral chances, who'd a thunk it?


----------



## teqniq (May 12, 2016)

How Jeremy Corbyn's enemies are gunning for Labour's ruling body


----------



## Pickman's model (May 12, 2016)

teqniq said:


> How Jeremy Corbyn's enemies are gunning for Labour's ruling body


yeh if they want to be in opposition to at least 2025


----------



## butchersapron (May 12, 2016)

The revelation appears to be that Luke Akehurst plans to stand for the NEC. He stands every year. And has done since at least Gordon Brown was leader, probably Blair too.


----------



## Sue (May 12, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> The revelation appears to be that Luke Akehurst plans to stand for the NEC. He stands every year. And has done since at least Gordon Brown was leader, probably Blair too.



'I will fight against Hard Left factionalism whether that is opposing partisan rule changes, defending hard-working incumbent MPs and councillors from sectarian deselection bids, or stopping the Momentum faction from becoming a bridgehead back into the party for the entryist far left.' 

Luke Akehurst for election to Labour's NEC 2016

Interesting to see that his wife is the newly-elected Labour city councillor in Blackbird Leys in Oxford.


----------



## Shechemite (May 12, 2016)

Luke Akehurst of question time appearance a few weeks ago?

The labour chap on then appeared to be grandstanding re antisemitism.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 12, 2016)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Luke Akehurst of question time appearance a few weeks ago?


luke akehurst of questionable appearance all the time


----------



## Louis MacNeice (May 12, 2016)

Sue said:


> 'I will fight against Hard Left factionalism whether that is opposing partisan rule changes, defending hard-working incumbent MPs and councillors from sectarian deselection bids, or stopping the Momentum faction from becoming a bridgehead back into the party for the entryist far left.'
> 
> Luke Akehurst for election to Labour's NEC 2016
> 
> Interesting to see that his wife is the newly-elected Labour city councillor in Blackbird Leys in Oxford.



I didn't realise they'd moved from Hackney to Blackbird Leys...hopefully they've still got their 'small hideaway in Andalucia' if it all gets too much.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## DotCommunist (May 12, 2016)

Dogsauce said:


> Suddenly nobody gives a fuck about antisemitism.  It's almost as if the whole thing was concocted to harm Labour's electoral chances, who'd a thunk it?


while I agree generally, Livingstone wasn't working as a plant. He gave them that himself.


----------



## two sheds (May 12, 2016)

Too right, and Corbyn at fault again - he should never have made him Mayor of London in the first place.


----------



## Sue (May 12, 2016)

Louis MacNeice said:


> I didn't realise they'd moved from Hackney to Blackbird Leys...hopefully they've still got their 'small hideaway in Andalucia' if it all gets too much.
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice


Oh, they haven't.  As I'm sure you're aware, you don't have to actually *live* in the area you purport to represent. Her address appears to be in Old Marston in Oxford which is a whole different kettle of fish to BBL.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (May 12, 2016)

Sue said:


> Oh, they haven't.  As I'm sure you're aware, you don't have to actually *live* in the area you purport to represent. Her address appears to be in Old Marston in Oxford which is a whole different kettle of fish to BBL.



I didn't think they had for one minute. 

I appreciated it's probably a ridiculous notion but isn't there something to gained from having people who live in and are part of a community represent that community?

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## Sue (May 12, 2016)

Louis MacNeice said:


> I didn't think they had for one minute.
> 
> I appreciated it's probably a ridiculous notion but isn't there something to gained from having people who live in and are part of a community represent that community?
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice



Now that is ridiculous...


----------



## brogdale (May 12, 2016)

Vermin MPs haven't tweeted anything about anti-semitism for days now. It's almost as though their earlier 'concern' has fallen down the agenda and they're not being instructed to tweet about it any more.


----------



## two sheds (May 12, 2016)

They'll be saving them all up until just before the next set of elections.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 12, 2016)

two sheds said:


> They'll be saving them all up until just before the next set of elections.


yeh but in the great tradition of british television they'll all come out as repeats


----------



## nino_savatte (May 13, 2016)

I was alerted to this Stephen Pollard smear job on Facebook.


> *The Left's hatred of Jews chills me to the bone*
> *As a young boy, I used to think my grandma very strange. In her bedroom she kept a suitcase, packed and ready for use at a moment’s notice. “Just in case,” she’d tell me when I asked where it was that she was always waiting to go to. “You never know when they’ll turn on the Jews.”*
> 
> *Her house in Northwood was epitome of suburban comfort, and I couldn’t understand what on earth she meant. Until, that is, I learned some history – including the history of the Jews. Which is, in short, that pretty much everywhere, they have turned on the Jews.*
> ...



It's a mess of an article. 


> From my teens through my twenties and thirties, the fact that I am Jewish meant little to me beyond the Jonathan Miller sense of being Jew-ish. I adored beigels, matzoh balls, Seinfeld and Woody Allen more than your average gentile would think they deserved. And that was about it. If you’d asked me, I’d have told you that after the Holocaust, real, serious anti-Semitism – the sort where Jews were killed for being Jews, rather than the odd nasty comment – was a thing of the past, in civilised Europe, at least.


----------



## two sheds (May 13, 2016)

I wonder how he feels about the Right's hatred of the Jews.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 13, 2016)

two sheds said:


> I wonder how he feels about the Right's hatred of the Jews.


i think he's the sort who, on the basis of the word 'socialist' in 'national socialist german workers party', would say hitler was a leftie.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 13, 2016)

nino_savatte said:


> I was alerted to this Stephen Pollard smear job on Facebook.
> 
> 
> It's a mess of an article.


i would have thought 'the oldest hatred' isn't anti-semitism but misogyny.


----------



## nino_savatte (May 13, 2016)

two sheds said:


> I wonder how he feels about the Right's hatred of the Jews.


I wonder where he was when the NF and British Movement were marching through our towns and cities? He's clearly suffering from a form of selective amnesia. Poisonous cunt that he is.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 13, 2016)

nino_savatte said:


> I wonder where he was when the NF and British Movement were marching through our towns and cities?


oxford or cambridge no doubt: e2a: oxford.


----------



## nino_savatte (May 13, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> oxford or cambridge no doubt: e2a: oxford.


Yes, he strikes me as an Oxbridge-educated type: insulated from the realities of everyday life. I mean, he grew up in Northwood ffs.


----------



## nino_savatte (May 13, 2016)

I found this in a Guardian article about Poland's Michal Kaminski, whose party the Tories were allied to in the Euro Parliament.


> As the row has grown, the Conservatives managed – in what they believed to be a decisive counter-strike – to enlist the support of Stephen Pollard, editor of the_Jewish Chronicle_, who leaped to Kaminski's defence, saying there was nothing to suggest the Polish MEP – now a strong supporter of Israel – had had antisemitic leanings. But it all just stoked the Kaminski war. Pollard claimed there was not "a shred of evidence" that Kaminski had demanded a Jewish apology for crimes against Poles as a condition for Polish contrition. The evidence had been in _Nasza Polska_ since 2001.
> 
> Kaminski's views on Jewish massacre still causing problems for Cameron



How did this cunt become a journalist in the first place? He's all over the shop. 

From the same article.


> As the Tory conference closed last Thursday, news leaked out of another Kaminski bombshell. The _Jewish Chronicle_'s political editor, Martin Bright, had conducted an interview with Kaminski in Manchester which appeared to blow much of the previous defence of him by the magazine's own editor, Pollard, out of the water. Kaminski denied to Bright having a neo-Nazi past or holding antisemitic views. But he made clear he had indeed opposed the apology issued by the Polish president in 2001, because it would be a one-side admission of guilt – something he had denied to this paper that he had ever said.



It's time someone did an exposé on Pollard.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 13, 2016)

nino_savatte said:


> How did this cunt become a journalist in the first place? He's all over the shop.


you say that as though it should debar him: whereas it just shows he's well qualified for the role.


----------



## nino_savatte (May 13, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> you say that as though it should debar him: whereas it just shows he's well qualified for the role.


Rhetorical question.


----------



## nino_savatte (May 13, 2016)

I've unearthed this from Liberal Conspiracy. It was posted in 2012 and concerns an early anti-Corbyn smear story. Of course, Pollard and his fellow editor, Martin Bright, were involved.
How the Jewish Chronicle is trying to smear Jeremy Corbyn MP  |  Liberal Conspiracy


----------



## Pickman's model (May 16, 2016)

treelover going brave sir robin now your lies exposed i see


----------



## nino_savatte (May 19, 2016)

Oh dear. Aaronovitch does his bit to keep the whole 'the Left is anti-Semitic' alive. David Hirsch, apparently some kind of professor, offers a series of logical fallacies, tropes and smears in defence of Israel. The programme includes contributions from Wee Owen and Kerry-anne (sic) Mendoza of *coughs* The Canary.
Anti-Semitism on the Left, The Briefing Room - BBC Radio 4


----------



## nino_savatte (May 20, 2016)

Michael Dugher (who?) is quoted in this smear job for Labour List, which has recently blocked me for challenging the dodgy arguments of its Blairite supporters. It opens by telling us "The hard left has always “had a problem with anti-Semitism”.

In the first paragraph he claims


> the “vast majority” of new Labour members are committed to fighting racism but warned the surge in new recruits over the last year had allowed in people with extreme views.
> Michael Dugher: The hard left has always had a problem with anti-Semitism | LabourList



For Dugher, this is about trying to expel as many new members as possible on the flimsiest of evidence. 

Poisonous cunt.


----------



## nino_savatte (May 20, 2016)

The Oxford University Labour Club anti-semitism row was manufactured by a Blairite brat, who'd nominated a Lib Dem candidate in the local elections. This, according to the Electronic Intifada.


> A student behind false claims of anti-Semitism at Oxford University will be expelled from the UK’s main opposition Labour Party, The Electronic Intifada can reveal.
> 
> David Klemperer was suspended from the party for nominating an opposing candidate for Oxford council in this month’s local elections.
> 
> ...



Ooer...


----------



## J Ed (May 20, 2016)

See you later alligator


----------



## Greasy Boiler (May 21, 2016)

Judging by the media it seems Labour has solved its problem with anti-semtism... until the next election.


----------



## Nigel (May 22, 2016)

nino_savatte said:


> The Oxford University Labour Club anti-semitism row was manufactured by a Blairite brat, who'd nominated a Lib Dem candidate in the local elections. This, according to the Electronic Intifada.
> 
> 
> Ooer...


David Klemperer & Alex Chalmers; main proponents of Anti- Semitic Accusations suspended for nominating Lib-Dem candidate!

Instigator of anti-Semitism scam kicked out of Labour


----------



## agricola (May 22, 2016)

nino_savatte said:


> For Dugher, this is about trying to expel as many new members as possible on the flimsiest of evidence.
> 
> Poisonous cunt.



I especially like this, from the end of that missive:



> Dugher also said Labour’s national executive committee (NEC) must be allowed to carry out a “a proper and fair investigation”into Livingstone’s behaviour but added: “Given the condemnation of Mr Livingstone by the Chief Rabbi, the former Chief Rabbi, the Board of Deputies, the Holocaust Education Trust, the Jewish Labour Movement and just as importantly from ordinary Labour members and decent people up and down the country, in my view it is inconceivable that Livingstone not be kicked out of the Labour Party for good.


----------



## nino_savatte (May 22, 2016)

agricola said:


> I especially like this, from the end of that missive:


'Decent people' *klaxon*


----------



## Pickman's model (May 22, 2016)

J Ed said:


> See you later alligator


in a while crocodile


----------



## teqniq (May 27, 2016)

Jackie Walker's suspension has been lifted


----------



## Pickman's model (May 27, 2016)

teqniq said:


> Jackie Walker's suspension has been lifted



Much more later=on the lash round 2100


----------



## teqniq (May 29, 2016)




----------



## nino_savatte (May 30, 2016)

Here's Tony Greenstein in The Weekly Worker giving both barrels to Labour's cowardice in the face of Zionist pressure.


> The Labour Party seems to be in a parallel universe, whereby black is white and truth is false. The laws of logic no longer apply. How else can one describe a situation whereby those who support the world’s only apartheid state are the ones defining what is and what is not racism?
> 
> In recent weeks, Ken Livingstone has been suspended for mentioning the relationship of the Nazis to the Zionists, David Watson has been suspended for claiming that Zionism is racist and I have been suspended for, among other things, claiming that Zionism is a Jewish form of anti-Semitism.
> 
> ...


----------



## CNT36 (Jun 8, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Solid summary here
> 
> Jeremy Corbyn hasn’t got an ‘antisemitism problem’. His opponents do.


Does anyone know if part 2 ever surfaced?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 6, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> View attachment 86720
> treelover
> i'm waiting on your apologies for lying.


treelover, still waiting for your apology for telling porkies


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 18, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> View attachment 86720
> treelover
> i'm waiting on your apologies for lying.


treelover *taps watch*


----------



## bimble (Jul 18, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> treelover *taps watch*


Give it a rest will you? treelover just said he was taking a break from here and that I'd gone away because bullied off: he has taken a break & if I've reappeared after a couple of months that's not cos he's a liar its cos I'm a fool. Not that I felt bullied by you in particular, you're not a bully, I think of you more like a sort of small pedantic pebble in shoe that you learn to live with and shake out periodically.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 18, 2016)

bimble said:


> Give it a rest will you? treelover just said he was taking a break from here and that I'd gone away because bullied off: he has taken a break & if I've reappeared after a couple of months that's not cos he's a liar its cos I'm a fool. Not that I felt bullied by you in particular, you're not a bully, I think of you more like a sort of small pedantic pebble in shoe that you learn to live with and shake out periodically.


Lucky treelover to have you to fight his battles foe him, even though you don't seem fully apprised of the issues.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Oct 18, 2016)

teqniq said:


> The Quilliam foundation is completely dodgy tbh.



How come? They seem  alright to me.


----------



## bimble (Oct 18, 2016)

How come this thread has decided to ignore the most recent report on this urgent pressing issue? Could it be that everyone with half a heart / brain is sick of the whole tawdry performance? Scientists just don't know.


----------



## bemused (Oct 19, 2016)

bimble said:


> How come this thread has decided to ignore the most recent report on this urgent pressing issue? Could it be that everyone with half a heart / brain is sick of the whole tawdry performance? Scientists just don't know.



How has Shami ended up looking so shady?


----------



## bimble (Oct 19, 2016)

bemused said:


> How has Shami ended up looking so shady?


That's the easy bit. Any fool could explain that bit.


----------



## bemused (Oct 19, 2016)

bimble said:


> That's the easy bit. Any fool could explain that bit.



I'm still flabbergasted she got herself in that position.


----------



## bimble (Oct 19, 2016)

bemused said:


> I'm still flabbergasted she got herself in that position.


Hard to get flabbergasted nowadays, but disillusionment is cheap.


----------



## DownwardDog (Oct 19, 2016)

bemused said:


> I'm still flabbergasted she got herself in that position.



What position? She got a peerage out of it! I reckon she realised she could completely manipulate Corbyn, saw her chance and took it.


----------



## bimble (Oct 19, 2016)

DownwardDog said:


> What position? She got a peerage out of it! I reckon she realised she could completely manipulate Corbyn, saw her chance and took it.


I think she just fucked up , bad timing, she'd have got a peerage anyway even if someone else had written that 'report.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Oct 19, 2016)

two sheds said:


> I wonder how he feels about the Right's hatred of the Jews.



Absolutely. People like Sfront, BNP EDL etc. Hold your nose and have a look at their web sites, a quick look is more than enough. Their hatred of the Jews is absolute, to the point of psychopathy.

OK, some Labour people have made a few ill judged comments, but compared to the far right, it is bugger all.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 19, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> Absolutely. People like Sfront, BNP EDL etc. Hold your nose and have a look at their web sites, a quick look is more than enough. Their hatred of the Jews is absolute, to the point of psychopathy.
> 
> OK, some Labour people have made a few ill judged comments, but compared to the far right, it is bugger all.


_cui bono_? that's the question people should be asking about this whole misbegotten mess.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 19, 2016)

DownwardDog said:


> What position? She got a peerage out of it! I reckon she realised she could completely manipulate Corbyn, saw her chance and took it.


you're a conservative, aren't you?


----------



## Sasaferrato (Oct 19, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> you're a conservative, aren't you?



Was. Now politically unaligned.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 19, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> Was. Now politically unaligned.


i did not know you posted as downwarddog


----------



## two sheds (Oct 19, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> Was. Now politically unaligned.



I read that as politically unhinged


----------



## Sasaferrato (Oct 19, 2016)

two sheds said:


> I read that as politically unhinged



Whatever.


----------



## Sue (Oct 19, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> Was. Now politically unaligned.


SNP..?


----------



## Sasaferrato (Oct 19, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh if they want to be in opposition to at least 2025



You don't seem to see Corbyn as the problem. I can see Labour in opposition for every day that Corbyn is leader.

I would imagine that if Labour get a real kicking in 2020, they will replace him then, which is too late of course.

Loyalty is admirable, but a party is bigger than one man, and in the situation that the man is the problem, you have two choices. Replace him, re-energise and reunite the party, and win the next election, or keep him and lose.

I'm not a Labour supporter, but do listen to what people are saying, and my admittedly small sample is hearing a rejection of Corbyn.

One thing that the right seem to be capable of doing, which the left seem to be incapable of, is at least presenting the image of a united front, come election time. Fighting like cats in a sack doesn't endear any party to the general public.

As I said, I'm not a Labour supporter, but I do not want to see the current government in power until 2025, and perhaps beyond.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Oct 19, 2016)

Sue said:


> SNP..?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 19, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> You don't seem to see Corbyn as the problem. I can see Labour in opposition for every day that Corbyn is leader.
> 
> I would imagine that if Labour get a real kicking in 2020, they will replace him then, which is too late of course.
> 
> ...


as i have said they could elect michael palin leader tomorrow and they would still be in opposition until 2025. it's not corbyn _per se_, it's the fucking arsery of a party so divided the entitled mps will rock the boat until they get the leader they want.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Oct 19, 2016)

killer b said:


> No you won't. You'll continue posting tedious 'whither the left!?' posts and try to connect every fucking issue in the world to how shit the SWP are until judgement day.



The SWP may be shit, but I am impressed with their placard producing capability.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Oct 19, 2016)

Sue said:


> Now that is ridiculous...



One of our Councillors here in Livingston, lived in Sunderland. He only attended sufficient meetings to keep his allowance.


----------



## 19force8 (Jan 9, 2017)

Anybody surprised by this?

UK MPs urge probe into Israeli plot against politicians


----------



## 19force8 (Jan 9, 2017)

Or this?

The Labour Party, anti-Semitism and Zionism – International Socialism


----------



## J Ed (Jan 9, 2017)

REVEALED: How Israeli diplomat worked inside Labour to undermine 'crazy' Corbyn



> Undercover recordings seen by Middle East Eye have revealed how an Israeli diplomat sought to establish organisations and youth groups to promote Israeli influence inside the opposition Labour party in an effort to undermine Jeremy Corbyn's leadership.
> 
> In secret conversations filmed by an undercover reporter, Shai Masot, a senior political officer at the Israeli embassy in London, described his plans to set up a youth wing of the Labour Friends of Israel (LFI) organisation and revealed that he had set up other organisations in the past.
> 
> Masot described taking delegations of Labour members on trips to Israel and told Joan Ryan, the chair of LFI, that he had he had been approved £1m ($1.2m) to fund further visits.


----------



## cantsin (Jan 9, 2017)

J Ed said:


> REVEALED: How Israeli diplomat worked inside Labour to undermine 'crazy' Corbyn



am blocked by Akehurst on Twitter, so would be interested to know how he's responding to this shameful crap .

The Graun piece on this also mentions the fixer taking Fabians on a trip to Israel with a view to get Young Labour friends of Israel going.

Wish Corbyn + co wld show some balls and sort some of this lot out / show them the door.


----------



## J Ed (Jan 9, 2017)

cantsin said:


> am blocked by Akehurst on Twitter, so would be interested to know how he's responding to this shameful crap .
> 
> The Graun piece on this also mentions the fixer taking Fabians on a trip to Israel with a view to get Young Labour friends of Israel going.
> 
> Wish Corbyn + co wld show some balls and sort some of this lot out / show them the door.



Akehurst is the one who has been coordinating the trips...


----------



## 19force8 (Jan 9, 2017)

cantsin said:


> The Graun piece on this also mentions the fixer taking Fabians on a trip to Israel with a view to get Young Labour friends of Israel going.
> 
> Wish Corbyn + co wld show some balls and sort some of this lot out / show them the door.


If only. 

I hadn't realised the extent that Zionism has been one of the core beliefs of the Labour Party for at least a century. To an extent that even embarrassed Weizmann.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 9, 2017)

19force8 said:


> Anybody surprised by this?
> 
> UK MPs urge probe into Israeli plot against politicians





19force8 said:


> Or this?
> 
> The Labour Party, anti-Semitism and Zionism – International Socialism



What's your thinking/point here?


----------



## 19force8 (Jan 9, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> What's your thinking/point here?


I didn't think I needed to spell it out. Two recently published articles directly relevant to the subject of this thread.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 18, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> Goysplaining? Really? I know you've seen the bit above where I take Sasaferrato to task for calling me anti-semitic. In the light of that you may wish to reconsider your extremely offensive post.


Still waiting for an apology, bimble


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 18, 2017)

bimble said:


> Thanks for that, excellent piece of goysplaining. I am well aware of the role of end of times christian loons in supporting the return of jews to the holy land etc. You'll have to spread the word (about how Israel has nothing to do with them really) to the 93% of British Jews who say that it is a significant part of their jewish identity in some way.


The offending post


----------



## cantsin (Mar 18, 2017)

wasn't going to bother bringing it up, but as this thread's surfaced again, the ridiculous hoopla ( on twitter / elsewhere ) involving the most obvious non anti semitic non hate signs , talked up big time by the Shomrim ( local hasidic patrol ), with every div and his her dog then jumping on the 'disgusted from Stoke Newington' bandwagon ( Diane Abbot...get a grip, ffs )  lead inevitably to the ' Labour fuels this anti semitism' bollocks starting to creep out.

*(((Bhigdadi)))*‏ @ibngibril  Mar 15
@LeabridgeLabour @ChaimHochhauser @UKLabour @jeremycorbyn Labour's obsession with Islamic terror underpins their nascent antisemitism

etc etc

It was gently suggested that the affectionate looking silouhette of a relaxed,slouchy  / cool looking Hasidic bloke didnt exactly look like a symbol of 'no Jews allowed'  hate, a Dalstonite  pointed out there were actually 10 or more similar style signs up and around that day, with silhouettes of kids, hipsters etc, and the street artist responsible came apologetically out of the woodwork before the day was out.

Farcical.

‘Beware of Jews’ sign in Stamford Hill torn down by Hackney Council


----------



## likesfish (Mar 18, 2017)

It was massively  though


----------



## Brainaddict (Mar 18, 2017)

cantsin said:


> wasn't going to bother bringing it up, but as this thread's surfaced again, the ridiculous hoopla ( on twitter / elsewhere ) involving the most obvious non anti semitic non hate signs , talked up big time by the Shomrim ( local hasidic patrol ), with every div and his her dog then jumping on the 'disgusted from Stoke Newington' bandwagon ( Diane Abbot...get a grip, ffs )  lead inevitably to the ' Labour fuels this anti semitism' bollocks starting to creep out.
> 
> *(((Bhigdadi)))*‏ @ibngibril  Mar 15
> @LeabridgeLabour @ChaimHochhauser @UKLabour @jeremycorbyn Labour's obsession with Islamic terror underpins their nascent antisemitism
> ...


Saw the indignation at that on twatter and realised immediately they'd misinterpreted. A thing in a red CIRCLE means not allowed. A thing in a red triangle means 'look out for' (you see it with deer for example). That along with the fact he looked quite cool made it clear the indignation machine had cranked up a bit too quickly...


----------



## cantsin (Mar 18, 2017)

Brainaddict said:


> Saw the indignation at that on twatter and realised immediately they'd misinterpreted. A thing in a red CIRCLE means not allowed. A thing in a red triangle means 'look out for' (you see it with deer for example). That along with the fact he looked quite cool made it clear the indignation machine had cranked up a bit too quickly...



Red circle with a line through it might have looked ominous ....this really didn't .


----------



## alsoknownas (Mar 20, 2017)

Saw a video of Jackie Walker talking about the whole definition thing, etc. (sorry can't find a way to link).  She seemed fairly sound tbh.


----------



## bimble (Mar 20, 2017)

alsoknownas said:


> Saw a video of Jackie Walker talking about the whole definition thing, etc. (sorry can't find a way to link).  She seemed fairly sound tbh.


What definition thing? I'd like to see: Find the link if you're feeling the need to post about its content please.

I did a weird thing last week, crossed land border from Sinai Egypt to get into south  Israel- the security was very harsh and a woman working for Israeli border asked me why I think I'm a Jew and I had no good simple ready answer. I'd be interested to know what walker had to say, if that's what you're on about.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 20, 2017)

alsoknownas said:


> Saw a video of Jackie Walker talking about the whole definition thing, etc. (sorry can't find a way to link).  She seemed fairly sound tbh.



This one...


----------



## bimble (Mar 20, 2017)

Thanks for link. Shes awful is walker.  a boring self aggrandising crowd playing idiot.everyone knows Israel is a racist state. Everything else in that speech is bollocks.


----------



## alsoknownas (Mar 20, 2017)

bimble said:


> ...everyone knows Israel is a racist state.


If that was the case you'd have more of a point.  She's specifically having to defend that position in the video. 

(I came across it on Facebook, so couldn't find a way of linking to it.)


----------



## bimble (Mar 20, 2017)

alsoknownas said:


> If that was the case you'd have more of a point.  She's specifically having to defend that position in the video.
> 
> (I came across it on Facebook, so couldn't find a way of linking to it.)


Oh ok. She's defending that position in the Facebook video to whom, what's the audience, the clapping crowd, is she speaking to anyone who is learning something new? She talks shit about identity being a matter of pure choice , it's just not so for 99.9 % of people ever.


----------



## 19force8 (Mar 21, 2017)

bimble said:


> everyone knows Israel is a racist state.



Except the man who asked the question, who seemed to think it was anti-semitic.


----------



## 19force8 (Mar 21, 2017)

bimble said:


> Oh ok. She's defending that position in the Facebook video to whom, what's the audience, the clapping crowd, is she speaking to anyone who is learning something new? She talks shit about identity being a matter of pure choice , it's just not so for 99.9 % of people ever.


What is wrong with you? She is clearly responding to someone (the original questioner?) saying she isn't Jewish. She's saying we define our identity, not the state, etc. When she chooses to recognise her Jewish ancestry that's not "a matter of pure choice."


----------



## bimble (Mar 21, 2017)

Ok, don't want to get into it, its not something i can discuss very reasonably tbh. If my relatives had been able to choose how they wanted to define their identities instead of the State doing so for them in the 1930s that would've been nice though.


----------



## 19force8 (Mar 21, 2017)

bimble said:


> Ok, don't want to get into it, its not something i can discuss very reasonably tbh. If my relatives had been able to choose how they wanted to define their identities instead of the State doing so for them in the 1930s that would've been nice though.


So she's Jewish enough for the holocaust, but not for Zionists. And you're okay with that?


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 21, 2017)

(Pause for applause)


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 21, 2017)

bimble said:


> Oh ok. She's defending that position in the Facebook video to whom, what's the audience, the clapping crowd, is she speaking to anyone who is learning something new? She talks shit about identity being a matter of pure choice , it's just not so for 99.9 % of people ever.


You don't say.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 21, 2017)

19force8 said:


> So she's Jewish enough for the holocaust, but not for Zionists. And you're okay with that?



It's dodgey hyperbole. It seems JW isn't Jewish enough for some even though she identifies as Jewish and her mother is Jewish. She wouldn't have had a choice in Nazi Germany either and has every right and reason to criticise the Israeli state for the racist regime that it is.


----------



## bimble (Mar 21, 2017)

That man who is 'questioning' / haranguing her in that vid is obvioulsy a zealot and a shithead and wrong but that doesn't mean she's right when she says that somehow now after some battle she says has been won everyone gets to choose and define their own identities. 
Of course Israel is a racist state, anyone seriously attempting to deny that is just deluded or dishonest. Walker has no more or less right to say that than anyone else though has she.


----------



## 19force8 (Mar 21, 2017)

I think it's generally accepted that most forms of identity have some basis in physical or cultural reality. I also think she was expressing some of her frustration at the tirade of remarks denying her identity.

Though I have noticed that students are self labeling in ways that would have been unheard of a decade ago. For instance "_I identify as a non-binary person of colour, my preferred pronouns are they, them and their._" So who knows where it will all end.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 21, 2017)

19force8 said:


> I think it's generally accepted that most forms of identity have some basis in physical or cultural reality. I also think she was expressing some of her frustration at the tirade of remarks denying her identity.
> 
> Though I have noticed that students are self labeling in ways that would have been unheard of a decade ago. For instance "_I identify as a non-binary person of colour, my preferred pronouns are they, them and their._" So who knows where it will all end.


tears. it will end in tears.


----------



## alsoknownas (Mar 21, 2017)

bimble said:


> Oh ok. She's defending that position in the Facebook video to whom, what's the audience, the clapping crowd, is she speaking to anyone who is learning something new? She talks shit about identity being a matter of pure choice , it's just not so for 99.9 % of people ever.


She also talks specifically in the video about wanting to broaden the audience and the conversation.  I'm not quite sure what your objections are.  Perhaps you know stuff about her that I don't, but none of what you're saying is supported by listening to her speak there.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 21, 2017)

19force8 said:


> So she's Jewish enough for the holocaust, but not for Zionists. And you're okay with that?


ime she is.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 21, 2017)

19force8 said:


> I think it's generally accepted that most forms of identity have some basis in physical or cultural reality. I also think she was expressing some of her frustration at the tirade of remarks denying her identity.


 Of course she was...it seems that all these critics have to throw at her when they can't argue their pro-israeli case anymore is that the don't think _she_ is a Jew anyway. It's nasty stuff. Drawing on some super dodgy ideas about 'purity' and who gets to identify as Jewish. Perhaps we aren't supposed to notice that is what they are doing.


----------



## alsoknownas (Mar 21, 2017)

19force8 said:


> Though I have noticed that students are self labeling in ways that would have been unheard of a decade ago. For instance "_I identify as a non-binary person of colour, my preferred pronouns are they, them and their._" So who knows where it will all end.


Perhaps it will end in people realising that many of the seemingly concrete identifiers such as race, creed, and even gender, are to a large extent social constructs deliberately designed to contain our behaviours, and that people might be better off redefining themselves, even if that confuses people .


----------



## bimble (Mar 21, 2017)

I have a problem with Walker from things she's said previously but it's not important is it, I don't have to like her.
Rutita1 I don't know who you're talking about in your post above (when you say 'all these critics') but me I have absolutely no questions about whether she's a jew or not I just think she's an idiot.


----------



## alsoknownas (Mar 21, 2017)

The more I look into this, the more it looks like a successful smear campaign.  I don't agree with everything she has said (of course it's right that The Holocaust be distinctly commemorated), but none of it is anti-Semitic.


----------



## killer b (Mar 27, 2017)

Livingstone is up in front of the National Constitution Committee (whatever that is) over this stuff this week. He's engaged the services of Michael Mansfield QC, and will be producing documentary evidence linking Hitler with Zionism.


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 27, 2017)

read him saying the other day that if it goes against him he'll take it to court


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Mar 27, 2017)

Great, what could possibly go wrong?


----------



## mikey mikey (Mar 29, 2017)

> The corporate media is sending a message … a message aimed at a much broader audience than undecided American voters (assuming such creatures really exist). The message is, “get with the fucking program, or get stigmatized as an anti-Semite, or a racist, or a Russian spy, or whatever.” The message is, “drop the populist rhetoric, shut the hell up about the Wall Street banks, and the corporations, and the ‘one percent,’ and … actually … forget about politics completely, except for identity politics, of course. Go ahead and knock yourself out with that.”


http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/10/27/the-pathologization-of-dissent/


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 29, 2017)

mikey mikey said:


> http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/10/27/the-pathologization-of-dissent/


but what do YOU think?


----------



## mikey mikey (Mar 29, 2017)

I thought it was an interesting article.


----------



## kebabking (Mar 30, 2017)

Livingstone up to his normal 'can't keep his gob shut for 10 minutes' trick...

Ken Livingstone repeats claim about Nazi-Zionist collaboration

on the way in to his _bringing the party into disrepute_ hearing. spectacular.


----------



## bimble (Mar 30, 2017)

Is the stuff he's saying in that piece true though, does anyone know?


----------



## kebabking (Mar 30, 2017)

bimble said:


> Is the stuff he's saying in that piece true though, does anyone know?



its probably true within a context that rent-a-gob doesn't explain - but does it matter? this is politics, Labour is looking to publicly cleanse itself of the whiff of anti-semitism, which it gifted its enemies, and Livingstone just can't keep his mouth shut.


----------



## bimble (Mar 30, 2017)

Of course. I'm just interested as to the facts, no question as to whether he's a massive liability and an idiot unable to stop digging.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 30, 2017)

mikey mikey said:


> I thought it was an interesting article.


you can't even say whether you agree with it 

bring back rebel warrior, at least he had some vim


----------



## co-op (Mar 30, 2017)

kebabking said:


> Labour is looking to publicly cleanse itself of the whiff of anti-semitism, *which it gifted its enemies*, and Livingstone just can't keep his mouth shut.



The Corbynite left was certainly blind-sided by the whole a-s line of attack but this was a concerted orchestrated campaign with the assistance of a whole chunk of the PLP and huge media complicity, hardly "gifted to its enemies" by Labour. Now that its goal - ie getting rid of Corbyn - has obviously failed, suddenly Labour don't seem to have an anti-semitism problem. It was a tool.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Mar 30, 2017)

alsoknownas said:


> Perhaps it will end in people realising that many of the seemingly concrete identifiers such as race, creed, and even gender, are to a large extent social constructs deliberately designed to contain our behaviours, and that people might be better off redefining themselves, even if that confuses people .



Deliberately designed? By who?


----------



## mikey mikey (Mar 31, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> you can't even say whether you agree with it



Please don't ask me to join in with what could be your disgusting anti-Semitism.


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 31, 2017)

mikey mikey said:


> I thought it was an interesting article.



Why?


----------



## mikey mikey (Mar 31, 2017)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Why?



Because it was of interest to the reader.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 31, 2017)

mikey mikey said:


> Please don't ask me to join in with what could be your disgusting anti-Semitism.


Simple question, do you agree with it y/n


----------



## bimble (Mar 31, 2017)

mikey mikey said:


> Because it was of interest to the reader.


Not really. I just read it and found it very dull. It says that there's an attack afoot to lump together and denigrate everyone who is not working for 'the man', and then it manages to do exactly that, blurring together Trumpers and leftists and conspiracy theorists into one big happy family of the ostracisised. what's the point?


----------



## mikey mikey (Mar 31, 2017)

bimble said:


> Not really. I just read it and found it very dull.



Maybe you should've ignored it then.



bimble said:


> it manages to do exactly that, blurring together Trumpers and leftists and conspiracy theorists into one big happy family of the ostracisised.



Actually, it describes and condems that very thing.


----------



## mikey mikey (Mar 31, 2017)

If Ken Livingstone does not win his misconduct hearing, justice in the Labour Party is dead


----------



## killer b (Mar 31, 2017)

vox politilol


----------



## killer b (Mar 31, 2017)

hey, maybe post something from the canary too.


----------



## 19force8 (Apr 3, 2017)

kebabking said:


> Livingstone up to his normal 'can't keep his gob shut for 10 minutes' trick...
> 
> Ken Livingstone repeats claim about Nazi-Zionist collaboration
> 
> on the way in to his _bringing the party into disrepute_ hearing. spectacular.


And yet it seems that the tribunal has no problem with his comments about Hitler's attitude to Zionism, but defending Naz Shah was beyond the pale. 

Maybe today we'll finally get some sanity from this saga. I ain't holding my breath though.


----------



## mikey mikey (Apr 3, 2017)

killer b said:


> hey, maybe post something from the canary too.


Did Mike Sivier write anything inaccurate in that story, or is it just not "moderate" enough for you?


----------



## cantsin (Apr 3, 2017)

killer b said:


> hey, maybe post something from the canary too.



Is there anything you disagree with in that piece ?


----------



## bimble (Apr 3, 2017)

mikey mikey said:


> Did Mike Sivier write anything inaccurate in that story, or is it just not "moderate" enough for you?


It's a really stupid 'article'. It says 'The right-wing mass media were full of anti-Livingstone commentary ..all of which could be refuted very easily if one only mentioned the facts". Presumably when he says 'the facts' he just means the haavara agreement ?
But Livingstone said that the zionists and hitler had 'very real collaboration' (before he 'went mad' and decided to kill them all). That is not borne out by the facts. Do you not see the problem with him going on in this way?  The collaboration narrative is enthusiastically taken up by the crappest sort of holocaust deniers and false flaggers. There are a whole lot of facts that can be marshalled to show that he is talking absolute twaddle. Like for instance the records of what was said at the meeting between hitler and the Mufti of jerusalem in '41.


----------



## mikey mikey (Apr 3, 2017)

bimble said:


> It's a really stupid 'article'. It says 'The right-wing mass media were full of anti-Livingstone commentary ..all of which could be refuted very easily if one only mentioned the facts". Presumably when he says the fact he just means the haavara agreement ?
> But Livingstone said that the zionists and hitler had 'very real collaboration' (before he 'went mad' and decided to kill them all). That is not borne out by the facts. Do you not see the problem with him going on in this way?  The collaboration narrative is enthusiastically taken up by the crappest sort of holocaust deniers and false flaggers. There are a whole lot of facts that can be marshalled to show that he is talking absolute twaddle. Like for instance the records of what was said at the meeting between hitler and the Mufti of jerusalem in '41.


Clearly we are supposed to believe that Red Ken is a raving anti-Semite and Nazi apologist and by association so is anybody left of Owne Smith just by association. Anybody who is skeptical of such an egregious smear is, we are to accept with question, also a racist fascist, whether they knew it or not. Moreover, blogs are evil unless written by moderates and we should really just leave journalism to the professionals. Cos we're all unqualified to have an opinionon anything. Ever.


----------



## killer b (Apr 3, 2017)

cantsin said:


> Is there anything you disagree with in that piece ?


I started by disagreeing with the headline.


----------



## bimble (Apr 3, 2017)

oh dear. You're not really one for nuance are you mikey.


----------



## mikey mikey (Apr 3, 2017)

I can tell the difference between Ken Livingstone and David fucking Duke, you patronising prat.


----------



## bimble (Apr 3, 2017)

that's great. Do you think Livingstone an asset to the labour party?


----------



## mikey mikey (Apr 3, 2017)

If he is judged as less than an asset, should we falsely accuse him of anti-Semitism and ruin his reputaion for the rest of his life?

Is that your "for the greater good of the party" angle?

What long term drawbacks can you see in falsely accusing political enemies (or liabilities) of anti-Semitism? 
Could it be counter-productive to conflate genuine holocaust deniers with people that you just want out of the way?


----------



## 19force8 (Apr 3, 2017)

bimble said:


> that's great. Do you think Livingstone an asset to the labour party?


More of one than John Mann, but then so am I


----------



## bimble (Apr 3, 2017)

mikey mikey said:


> If he is judged as less than an asset, should we falsely accuse him of anti-Semitism and ruin his reputaion for the rest of his life?
> 
> Is that your "for the greater good of the party" angle?
> 
> ...



Personally i don't really care about his future career. He'd have been fine if he'd managed to keep a handle on his desire to bang on about hitler all the time. Anyway I just wanted to say what I think of your article (with its claim that if people just knew the facts they'd see Livingstone was totally spot on with his 'real collaboration' claim), don't want to get sucked into this shitstorm today.


----------



## mikey mikey (Apr 3, 2017)

Fair enough. You have slung your mud, so now you can sling your hook.


----------



## cantsin (Apr 3, 2017)

killer b said:


> I started by disagreeing with the headline.



feel free to move beyond 'headlines' , ' politlol'  lulz, inevitable Canary comparisons etc on this one


----------



## killer b (Apr 3, 2017)

CBA frankly. I take Vox Political about as seriously as the daily mash.


----------



## cantsin (Apr 3, 2017)

I know Tony Greenstein has a hotly disputed reputation ( with the antis v much in the ascendancy on soc media) but it's hard to ignore ( let alone refute ) the  sheer volume of historical detail here,all  backed up with references, dates, attributed quotes etc, outlining the relationships between the Nazis , assimilated German Jews, and Zionists, who were focused on Palestine. ( All this in the context of the Livingstone case, which last week seems to have had the goalposts moved away from  his  Havarra / Hitler comments to v thin Naz Shah related ones ) 

Ken Livingstone faces Labour’s Star Chamber as the Witch-hunters Change the Charge

Would be v useful to see a similarly detailed response to this fairly widely discussed perspective, if anyone knows of one .


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 4, 2017)

mikey mikey said:


> Fair enough. You have slung your mud, so now you can sling your hook.


Such a good line I don't believe it's original


----------



## 19force8 (Apr 4, 2017)

cantsin said:


> All this in the context of the Livingstone case, which last week seems to have had the goalposts moved away from his Havarra / Hitler comments to v thin Naz Shah related ones


The problem for Livingstone is that Naz Shah held up her hands and said [to paraphrase] "sorry that was anti-semitic and unaccepteble, but I was young and angry, it won't happen again, please forgive me." So he's now caught defending her "anti-semitism" without any of her excuses. It's going to be rough.

The problem I have with Livingstone and Greenstein is that the Hitler question and the comparisons between Zionism and Nazism aren't effective ways to argue against Zionism. They allow Zionists to hide what happened, and is happening, to Palestine behind mock outrage.

Actually, I have a soft spot for Greenstein and often read his blog - that level of obsession has a fascinating quality. Who else would have thought/dared to begin a petition against the Campaign Against Anti-Semitism?

The Charity Commission: To Get the Charity Commission to Deregister the Zionist Campaign Against Anti-Semitism


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## killer b (Apr 4, 2017)

Greenstein is a nutter, and I've no interest in reading another of his rants so let's just assume he's right on the detail. So what? The problem here (and this is pointed out every time this row surfaces again) isn't that Livingstone was lying - it's that he brought Hitler to a row about antisemitism. It's that he handed Corbyn's enemies a free gift, that he keeps giving them again and again, for no good reason. And it's that the allegation he made - regardless of it's veracity - is a trope used exclusively by racists and antisemites to further their racist, antisemitic ends.


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## mikey mikey (Apr 4, 2017)

On top of that, he's a left-leaning figure in thr Labour Party and we want all of them out. And the left-leaning members. Cos the LibDem brand has always been weak and forming our own party was a disaster. Operation Cuckoo's Nest is on the go! So purge and smear, purge and smear! Meanwhile, Simon Danczuk everybody. _Simon fucking Danczuk._


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## killer b (Apr 4, 2017)

Yeah, they do want him out. He knew that, and he handed them the means to do it.


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## 19force8 (Apr 4, 2017)

killer b said:


> a trope used exclusively by racists and antisemites to further their racist, antisemitic ends.


Clearly not, unless you're claiming that both Livingstone and Greenstein are racists and anti-semites. Which I'd venture to say was an unsustainable assertion.


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## killer b (Apr 4, 2017)

they're both total liabilities. Insert 'almost' in front of exclusively if it makes you happy.


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## 19force8 (Apr 4, 2017)

killer b said:


> they're both total liabilities. Insert 'almost' in front of exclusively if it makes you happy.


I think we were more or less in agreement. On the wisdom of the Hitler argument anyway, if not on the value of certain party members.


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## killer b (Apr 4, 2017)

You think Livingstone _isn't_ a liability? Even now? 

He was a sharp operator once. Not anymore.


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## kebabking (Apr 4, 2017)

19force8 said:


> I think we were more or less in agreement. On the wisdom of the Hitler argument anyway, if not on the value of certain party members.



Not being in London I'm not going to pronounce on Livingstone's usefulness there, but i can promise you, from one who knocks doors in the constituencies of the south Midlands that Labour will need to win in order to get within a million miles of forming a government, that Livingstone and his demented witterings are electoral poison. 

Every time he opens his mouth or even appears on TV we lose more 'possible' voters who have voted Labour previously, but who are unconvinced by Corbyn - and frankly Labour does not enjoy an abundance of credibility, let alone support, in these constituencies.


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## bimble (Apr 4, 2017)

Maybe 19Force8 was talking about Tony Greenstein, for whom they have a soft spot, maybe its Greenstein that's a valuable asset to Labour unjustly hounded out etc.


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## 19force8 (Apr 4, 2017)

What can I say?

I'm a sucker for eccentricity, sue me.

I don't deny that either is a liability (as is most of the PLP, Scottish Labour, etc, etc), but I don't see that as justification for expelling them.

It's not like Livingstone went on celebrity big brother!


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## cantsin (Apr 4, 2017)

killer b said:


> Greenstein is a nutter, and I've no interest in reading another of his rants so let's just assume he's right on the detail. So what? The problem here (and this is pointed out every time this row surfaces again) isn't that Livingstone was lying - it's that he brought Hitler to a row about antisemitism. It's that he handed Corbyn's enemies a free gift, that he keeps giving them again and again, for no good reason. And it's that the allegation he made - regardless of it's veracity - *is a trope used exclusively by racists and antisemites to further their racist, antisemitic ends.*




so we'll add Greenstein to your growing list of people / blogs etc you won't engage with past the headline, except to dismiss out of hand, but your last comment makes no sense at all if you accept he's "right on the detail " - unless you're buying into the 'Greenstein's an anti semite' bullshit ?


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## killer b (Apr 4, 2017)

we've already dealt with this. 


killer b said:


> Insert 'almost' in front of exclusively if it makes you happy.


----------



## 19force8 (Apr 4, 2017)

Ken Livingstone gets a year's suspension from Labour. 

Ken Livingstone Hitler row: Labour suspends former mayor again - BBC News

Not sure what difference it will make except to line the pockets of m'learned friends when he applies for a judicial review.


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## redsquirrel (Apr 4, 2017)

Tis remarkable how quickly this has been dealt with compared to the Danczuk saga


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## DotCommunist (Apr 4, 2017)

I read him say that he'd take the issue to court because he's not going down as that hitler bloke at this end of his career (paraphrasing OBVS). So its that, he refuses to be known as the anti-semite. Which tbf, would you take that for the good of the Party? I would not. But then I wouldn't have been banging on about hitler's zionism either, the Labour right have been shoeing Livingstone as an anti semite for years. Where was his guard, or his internal voice


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## bimble (Apr 5, 2017)

Guardian: "Livingstone said he had not been asked by Labour to refrain from repeating his comments about Hitler, and that the disciplinary process was like “being in North Korea”.


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## mikey mikey (Apr 5, 2017)

redsquirrel said:


> Tis remarkable how quickly this has been dealt with compared to the Danczuk saga


Some parts of the church are broader than others.


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## Bernie Gunther (Apr 5, 2017)

Maybe Ken has it in mind to have a bunch of expert witnesses debate the historical evidence for the position argued by Brenner in e.g. "Zionism in the Age of the Dictators"?

I mean, if he's persuaded that Brenner's argument is largely correct and thinks that he can get a couple of credible historians to say so, I can see why he might want to.


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## bimble (Apr 5, 2017)

This is todays Steve Bell cartoon. Am i missing something, is this funny?


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## 19force8 (Apr 5, 2017)

bimble said:


> This is todays Steve Bell cartoon. Am i missing something, is this funny?
> View attachment 103618


Not all cartoons are "funny," some are serious and some are satirical. This falls into the latter category, though I did chuckle at the wombat earlier in the week.

Wombats!


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## bimble (Apr 5, 2017)

The whole Livingstone story is so ridiculous.
Just bear in mind that the original thing was that interview when he said: "“Let’s remember when Hitler won his election in 1932, his policy then was that Jews should be moved to Israel. He was supporting Zionism – this before he went mad and ended up killing six million Jews."

After shit met fan he has repeatedly said this sort of thing:
"If I'd said Hitler was a Zionist I wouldn't just apologise, I would ask my doctor if it wasn't the first sign of dementia."..
So the important thing is that he only said hitler_ supported _zionism, not that he was actually a zionist. And by the looks of it he fully intends to carry on banging on about this fine distinction for the edification of all and the glory of the labour party.


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## brogdale (Apr 5, 2017)

bimble said:


> The whole Livingstone story is so ridiculous.



Only ridiculous if you ignore the context in which Livingstone 'came out fighting'. The zionist alliance of the Israeli state/Regev, CFI & LFI came up with a particularly effective synergy of advancing their own interests whilst undermining the Labour left and, as is still being seen, damaging the Labour 'brand' as a whole.

Worked well, didn't it?


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## redsquirrel (Apr 5, 2017)

bimble said:


> This is todays Steve Bell cartoon. Am i missing something, is this funny?


Bell hasn't been funny for a long time.


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## mikey mikey (Apr 5, 2017)

Israeli diplomat caught on camera plotting to 'take down' UK MPs

If I hadn't seen the video proof, I would have suspected this of being an anti-Semitic consiracy theory.


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## Shechemite (Apr 5, 2017)

mikey mikey said:


> Israeli diplomat caught on camera plotting to 'take down' UK MPs
> 
> If I hadn't seen the video proof, I would have suspected this of being an anti-Semitic consiracy theory.



Fascinating

What's your point?


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## cantsin (Apr 5, 2017)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Fascinating
> 
> What's your point?



maybe that there's a fucking tsunami of 'anti semitic' accusations swirling around, with v little supporting evidence, all helping work towards the  end goal of undermining any leftist support for #BDS in the UK, and v little attention being paid to hard evidence of Israeli Embassy involvement in this procress ?


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## Pickman's model (Apr 5, 2017)

cantsin said:


> maybe that there's a fucking tsunami of 'anti semitic' accusations swirling around, with v little supporting evidence, all helping work towards the  end goal of undermining any leftist support for #BDS in the UK, and v little attention being paid to hard evidence of Israeli Embassy involvement in this procress ?


having met one man expelled from labour for anti-semitism i can honestly say that in at least one case there was an anti-semite in labour.


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## nuffsaid (Apr 5, 2017)

DAYS SINCE KEN LIVINGSTONE MENTIONED HITLER


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## bimble (Apr 5, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> having met one man expelled from labour for anti-semitism i can honestly say that in at least one case there was an anti-semite in labour.


But Ken Livingstone has said "I’ve been in the Labour party for 47 years; I’ve never heard anyone say anything antisemitic." He must've just never crossed paths with the individual you mention then.


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## Shechemite (Apr 5, 2017)

cantsin said:


> maybe etc



Maybe that is his point.

Is that your point mikey?


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## Pickman's model (Apr 5, 2017)

bimble said:


> But Ken Livingstone has said "I’ve been in the Labour party for 47 years; I’ve never heard anyone say anything antisemitic." He must've just never crossed paths with the individual you mention then.


i don't know whether he's met yer man or not - i rather suspect he has - but as a rule of thumb bringing up hitler's relationship with the jews, whether you believe yourself to be on strong historical ground or no, is a Bad Idea.


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## Sprocket. (Apr 5, 2017)

Worse than Hitler!


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## cantsin (Apr 5, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> i don't know whether he's met yer man or not - i rather suspect he has -* but as a rule of thumb bringing up hitler's relationship with the jews, whether you believe yourself to be on strong historical ground or no, is a Bad Idea.*



he's mugged himself / LP off massively, depressing


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## 19force8 (Apr 5, 2017)

bimble said:


> But Ken Livingstone has said "I’ve been in the Labour party for 47 years; I’ve never heard anyone say anything antisemitic." He must've just never crossed paths with the individual you mention then.


Or maybe he or she just never said anything anti-semitic in Ken's presence. Also his 47 years means he joined the party somewhat after anti-semitism became unfashionable.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 5, 2017)

cantsin said:


> he's mugged himself / LP off massively, depressing


tbh being as his political career was launched in a coup against the labour group leader at the glc, one andrew mcintosh, it's no great surprise to see his political career disappear in disgrace - the sort of karma i think mcintosh's sons might appreciate, the author of his own exile.


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## killer b (Apr 5, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> as a rule of thumb bringing up hitler's relationship with the jews, whether you believe yourself to be on strong historical ground or no, is a Bad Idea.


This is the only thing that really matters. It's weird that it even needs to be said, but here we are. Again.


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## mikey mikey (Apr 5, 2017)

cantsin said:


> maybe that there's a fucking tsunami of 'anti semitic' accusations swirling around, with v little supporting evidence, all helping work towards the  end goal of undermining any leftist support for #BDS in the UK, and v little attention being paid to hard evidence of Israeli Embassy involvement in this procress ?



Yes, indeed. 

Wierdly, much of the rise in anti-Semitism in Ukraine has gone generally without comment. In fact, in the interest of backing Kiev, outspoken anti-Semites are praised.

Ukrainian war hero and lawmaker slurs Jews
Fan of Nazi collaborator to represent Ukraine at Paris Shoah symposium
American Embassy Praises Ukrainian Nationalist With Anti-Semitic Past



MadeInBedlam said:


> Is that your point mikey?



That question is not addressed to me, you realise.


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## belboid (Apr 5, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> tbh being as his political career was launched in a coup against the labour group leader at the glc, one andrew mcintosh, it's no great surprise to see his political career disappear in disgrace - the sort of karma i think mcintosh's sons might appreciate, the author of his own exile.


Not quite sure why a perfectly democratic vote should be described as a coup. Nor would I be sorry to have seen Macintosh deposed.


Neither of which stops Livingstone from being fairly described as a total prick today.


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## bimble (Apr 5, 2017)

Twitter today (hashtag livingstone) is a quite revealing clusterfuck. The one years suspension has at least managed to unite in pissed offness everyone on both sides of the 'argument'.


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## Shechemite (Apr 5, 2017)

mikey mikey said:


> That question is not addressed to me, you realise.



Ah yes a spelling error, much like 'wierdly'.


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## 19force8 (Apr 5, 2017)

bimble said:


> Twitter today (hashtag livingstone) is a quite revealing clusterfuck. The one years suspension has at least managed to unite in pissed offness everyone on both sides of the 'argument'.


Not quite everyone - my mate Tones has a different take:

Tony Greenstein's Blog: Victory for Ken Livingstone Despite Corbyn’s Shameful Silence


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## likesfish (Apr 5, 2017)

Tone would have a diffrent take 
  Ken is his own worse enemy whatever you think of zionism they are not Nazis and hitler really wasn't a fan of jews in the slightest.
 Mentioning jews and hitler in the same sentence just no its not going to win the arguement even I can figure that one out.


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## killer b (Apr 5, 2017)

By all accounts, Corbyn is to make a statement on this in the next couple of hours. Seems odd he didn't have one in the bag already tbh. Or perhaps, come up with one last night or this morning.


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## emanymton (Apr 5, 2017)

redsquirrel said:


> Bell hasn't been funny for a long time.


Was he ever funny?


----------



## belboid (Apr 5, 2017)

killer b said:


> By all accounts, Corbyn is to make a statement on this in the next couple of hours. Seems odd he didn't have one in the bag already tbh. Or perhaps, come up with one last night or this morning.


You'd almost think it was because he was a bit crap and clueless. Letting Watson get in first, ffs.


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## Sprocket. (Apr 5, 2017)

'Tis shambolic and embarrassing to see this carry on.


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## The39thStep (Apr 5, 2017)

Livingstone is a fucking embarrassment tbh and the issue he is on about is hardly a priority on the doorstep .


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## killer b (Apr 5, 2017)

belboid said:


> You'd almost think it was because he was a bit crap and clueless. Letting Watson get in first, ffs.


The only thing we can be confident in is that, whatever he says, it's going to make it all worse.


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## mikey mikey (Apr 5, 2017)

I get the impression that Watson would beat a Buffalo stampede to the front of the queue. Especially if there were a cheque from Max (not a Nazi oh no) Mosley up at the front.


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## killer b (Apr 5, 2017)

Watson's statement was 10am this morning. Hardly rushed out.


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## YouSir (Apr 5, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> Livingstone is a fucking embarrassment tbh and the issue he is on about is hardly a priority on the doorstep .



It wouldn't be a priority anywhere if it wasn't useful for some people to make it one.


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## mikey mikey (Apr 5, 2017)

killer b said:


> Watson's statement was 10am this morning. Hardly rushed out.


Well he had half a million quid to spend on his massive breakfast , courtesy of an ex-Tory who likes dressing upas an officer in the SS.


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## killer b (Apr 5, 2017)

killer b said:


> The only thing we can be confident in is that, whatever he says, it's going to make it all worse.


actually it's about right. But fuck knows why he didn't issue it last night.

_Ken Livingstone’s comments have been grossly insensitive, and he has caused deep offence and hurt to the Jewish community.

Labour’s independently elected national constitutional committee has found Ken guilty of bringing the party into disrepute and suspended him for two years.

It is deeply disappointing that, despite his long record of standing up to racism, Ken has failed to acknowledge or apologise for the hurt he has caused. Many people are understandably upset that he has continued to make offensive remarks which could open him to further disciplinary action.

Since initiating the disciplinary process, I have not interfered with it and respect the independence of the party’s disciplinary bodies. But Ken’s subsequent comments and actions will now be considered by the national executive committee after representations from party members._


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## belboid (Apr 5, 2017)

killer b said:


> actually it's about right. But fuck knows why he didn't issue it last night.
> 
> _Ken Livingstone’s comments have been grossly insensitive, and he has caused deep offence and hurt to the Jewish community.
> 
> ...


Yup, a pretty sensible and reasoned position. I don't think he should have said anything last night - might have looked like he'd had advance notice of the outcome- but first thing this morning would look right. What was he waiting for? To see how it went down? To keep the story going as long as possible?


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## bimble (Apr 5, 2017)

Not impressed myself, why the need to say that "the Jewish community" is offended & hurt. Could've just stuck to the actual charge of bringing the party into disrepute ?


----------



## campanula (Apr 5, 2017)

Jesus wept. I (ahem) rejoined the LP on a wave of (misguided) optimism...only to be shown the door during the leadership contest. Whew...dodged a bullet. Embarrassingly pitiful shenanigans of a privileged bubble dwelling subset of humanity. In the 70s, it would have been key parties, infidelity and whispered conferences in the sauna. Heartily sick of the meandering concerns of Westminster. Pathetically entitled careerists all round (annoyed with myself for clicking on any posts in P&P which refer to Labour- boredom and exhaustion after 3 days nana duty). Off to plot to cleanse my soul and plant sweet peas.


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## lazythursday (Apr 5, 2017)

I feel deeply embarrassed to be involved with Labour at the moment. The excruciating social media posts from people who should know better defending Livingstone 'he only posted historical fact' etc, the sheer mind-boggling incompetence of scheduling your local election launch on the same day, the dreadful finger-wagging Corbyn interview where he blames everything on the media, the loyal footsoldiers who are adamant that everything is going completely fine if it wasn't for those pesky Blairites... I just want to wake up and find there's nice grinning ineffectual Andy Burnham in charge and the left never got the chance to show just how badly it could fuck up an opportunity, and I wasn't stupid enough to join the party and vote for Corbyn, twice.


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## mikey mikey (Apr 5, 2017)

*sigh* Oh Liz Kendall, how could we have doubted you?

You would have been tough on benefits when it was so badly needed.

[/kinsarcasm]


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## The Pale King (Apr 5, 2017)

Livingstone has proven himself a tendentious idiot who has read one book and decided he needs to go no further. He used to be a very skillful politician, so his loss of political instinct and the basic ability to communicate is pretty odd. The conspicuous bad faith and performative disgust of his right wing critics to me is equally repellent though. Unfortunately Livingstone can't seem to stop playing the role they have written for him.


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## 19force8 (Apr 5, 2017)

lazythursday said:


> I feel deeply embarrassed to be involved with Labour at the moment. The excruciating social media posts from people who should know better defending Livingstone 'he only posted historical fact' etc,


Part of the problem is that it is [based on] fact, that's why it keeps cropping up. It tends to be deployed (on the left) as a way of showing that Zionists have always been complete and utter fucking shits. It's unnecessary because Zionism stands condemned by the actions of Israel, not because some unsuspecting zealots in the thirties thought they could do a deal with the Nazis. It's stupid because it ignores the absolute heroism of other Zionists in the camps, the ghettos and the underground. But the worst problem is once you've brought Hitler in you can't get rid of him* and instead of denouncing today's Zionism you spend all your time defending "historical fact." Just as Livingstone is still doing.

* see what I did there?


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## bimble (Apr 5, 2017)

19force8 said:


> Part of the problem is that it is fact, that's why it keeps cropping up..


What's a fact -  that Hitler "supported Zionism' '?
I do agree with your main point that the real problem is stupidity, and distraction from addressing the current situation in Israel / Palestine.
But here, have a bit of Mein Kampf, seeing as we're doing this, thanks to Ken. This is not exactly what I'd call supportive.


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## 19force8 (Apr 5, 2017)

bimble said:


> What's a fact -  that Hitler "supported Zionism' '?
> I do agree with your main point that the real problem is stupidity, and distraction from addressing the current situation in Israel / Palestine.
> But here, have a bit of Mein Kampf, seeing as we're doing this, thanks to Ken. This is not exactly what I'd call supportive.
> View attachment 103666


See what I did there!?


----------



## bimble (Apr 5, 2017)




----------



## The39thStep (Apr 5, 2017)

YouSir said:


> It wouldn't be a priority anywhere if it wasn't useful for some people to make it one.


That would include our Ken


----------



## bimble (Apr 5, 2017)

19force8 said:


> Not quite everyone - my mate Tones has a different take:
> 
> Tony Greenstein's Blog: Victory for Ken Livingstone Despite Corbyn’s Shameful Silence



also happy today:


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Apr 5, 2017)




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## agricola (Apr 5, 2017)

bimble said:


> What's a fact -  that Hitler "supported Zionism' '?
> I do agree with your main point that the real problem is stupidity, and distraction from addressing the current situation in Israel / Palestine.
> But here, have a bit of Mein Kampf, seeing as we're doing this, thanks to Ken. This is not exactly what I'd call supportive.
> View attachment 103666



Well exactly.  You can make a similar argument that Hitler supported the British, because he talked so fondly of aspects of the Empire in his book (and in his recorded private conversations during the war), and invited various British figures and groups over to Germany during the 1930s.


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## Brainaddict (Apr 5, 2017)

The Pale King said:


> Livingstone has proven himself a tendentious idiot who has read one book and decided he needs to go no further. He used to be a very skillful politician, so his loss of political instinct and the basic ability to communicate is pretty odd. The conspicuous bad faith and performative disgust of his right wing critics to me is equally repellent though. Unfortunately Livingstone can't seem to stop playing the role they have written for him.


Talking of his critics, and critics of the Labour Party, the guardian is going crazy about this. Right now about half their front page is on Livingstone and, inevitably, how shit Corbyn is, and for the matter the LP in general. Livingstone is a tit, and one with dodgy views at that, but the sight of the vultures circling is not a pretty one.


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## redsquirrel (Apr 5, 2017)

3 comment pieces in addition to the main story on the Guardian front page


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## Brainaddict (Apr 5, 2017)

redsquirrel said:


> 3 comment pieces in addition to the main story on the Guardian front page


And a video.


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## agricola (Apr 5, 2017)

redsquirrel said:


> 3 comment pieces in addition to the main story on the Guardian front page



_Nicht Kleckern sondern Klotzen!_, as Guderian would say


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## killer b (Apr 6, 2017)

David Baddiel's post on this is pretty good. 



_Here is the problem with what Livingstone said. Because a lot of people – the good people, of course, of the British Left – have been tweeting me to tell me that Ken just “stated a fact.”

Ken Livingstone did not state a fact. The statement “Hitler supported Zionism” is not a fact. It’s an interpretation. An interpretation of a particular historical moment, which is that, in the 30s, the forced emigration of Jews from Germany was pushed further along by various Nazi economic incentives allowing those who fled to Palestine to get some of their stolen assets back once in Palestine. So that is not Adolf Hitler supporting the idea of a Jewish state (even writing that sounds ridiculous). It is the Nazis taking advantage of the terror and despair of fleeing refugees, so as to get more of them to leave more quickly. It is just the thin edge of the wedge of Nazi horror. And the real problem, in a way, is the tone, of Livingstone, when giving this interpretation. There’s no sympathy. No compassion – no sense of the tragedy behind this. It’s just complacently presented as a deal, that Hitler made with German Zionists, and therefore – and this of course is the point, the banal, shit point – a way of consolidating that Zionism is bad. Through an association with the top bad thing, Hitler.

What’s weird here is I am not, as some of you may know, a Zionist. I’m an atheist and I don’t hold with religion being the basis for statehood. And obviously, as all Jews have to say now, when talking about this fucking subject, I do not support the appalling actions of the present Israeli government.

Mainly, in truth, though, I don’t care that much about Israel. I think, in fact, that it is anti-Semitic to assume that I have to care, or think about, or have a position on Israel, a country that, in the words of Morrissey, says nothing to me about my life. I don’t even think it’s a very Jewish place. In The Infidel, my film, a character whilst describing various types of Jews, says “And then Israelis – Jews without angst, without guilt – so not really Jews at all.”

But: I do care about anti-Semitism. And the problem is that an awful lot of anti-Semites – often unconsciously – do conflate anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism. Indeed, they often just conflate Israelis with Jews. Yesterday on Twitter, a chap called Kenard wrote to me that:

Ken is an irrelevance with little influence, unlike a large number of Israeli's who dominate the media and have done for decades.


It’s clear, isn’t it, that Kenard really wants to say: Jews. But because he has a vague awareness that that isn’t allowed any more, he just substitutes the word Israelis. Or Israeli’s, because he doesn’t understand grammar as well as racism.

So that’s the problem with Ken Livingstone’s statement. The interchangeability of the words Zionist with the word Jew means that in saying Zionism Is Bad, which is what Livingstone wants to do, he emboldens Kenard, and all those like him. And, of course, he also, as I’ve said many times, reveals that sense that runs deep in the Left, that the Jews don’t quite fit into the category of The Oppressed, and so therefore don’t deserve the same protections and sympathy as other minorities in the face of racism against them. Livingstone himself has said this in the creepingly insinuating comment that anti-Semitism and racism are “not exactly the same thing”.

Anyway. Facebook provides too much space, really, for all this. I’ll leave with the words, shall I, of Adolf Hitler in Mein Kampf, before he went mad, of course, according to Ken. So exactly in that period when he was, as we know, supporting Zionism. This is what Adolf said in there. I may have as much of a tin ear for meaning as Ken has for anti-Semitism, but I can’t, for the life of me, make this out to be as pro the idea of the creation of a Jewish state as Livingstone insists it is:

“While the Zionists try to make the rest of the World believe that the national consciousness of the Jew finds its satisfaction in the creation of a Palestinian state, the Jews again slyly dupe the dumb Goyim. It doesn't even enter their heads to build up a Jewish state in Palestine for the purpose of living there; all they want is a central organisation for their international world swindler, endowed with its own sovereign rights and removed from the intervention of other states: a haven for convicted scoundrels and a university for budding crooks."_


----------



## bimble (Apr 6, 2017)

19force8 Just asking you because you're one of the many people who've been saying that Ken was just stating a fact: Have you changed your mind about this now having looked at it a bit more?


----------



## 19force8 (Apr 6, 2017)

bimble said:


> 19force8 Just asking you because you're one of the many people who've been saying that Ken was just stating a fact: Have you changed your mind about this now having looked at it a bit more?


You did notice that in my little post above I referred to _defending "historical fact"_ didn't you? 

The quotes were there to show I wasn't talking about it in the same way Ken does. If that's not good enough, I'll accept the distinction wasn't sufficiently clear and I'm perfectly happy to go back and change the first sentence to read "is based on fact." However I think that would detract from one of the purposes of the post which was to explain *and* demonstrate how and why mention of Hitler derails a topic. 

Your call.


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## 19force8 (Apr 6, 2017)

bimble* I suspect your last post was in response to some doubt at my "liking" David Baddiel's facebook piece.

[* got it on the third try]

I think Baddiel covers more of the ground I did earlier, only better [DB's was better that is, not mine]. There is a point I disagree on though.

When Baddiel writes:


> Livingstone himself has said this in the creepingly insinuating comment that anti-Semitism and racism are “not exactly the same thing”.


He is, I think, suggesting a lacuna in Ken's anti-racism. However, this might be a point of agreement between Ken and the Zionists. For instance Howard Jacobson has said that anti-Semitism is "unlike other racisms."

Also, you only have to look at the IHRA definition to see how differently some see it to other racisms.


----------



## belboid (Apr 6, 2017)

A decent piece on Kens history and it's relation to the current mess - Hero or villain? The Livingstone question


----------



## mikey mikey (Apr 6, 2017)

Wes Streeting is an anagram for Sweetest Grin, Tweets Singer, Wetness Tiger and Terse Twinges.

Justr sayin'.


----------



## cantsin (Apr 6, 2017)

killer b said:


> David Baddiel's post on this is pretty good.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




really impressed by nearly all of this, respect to DB ( after going in assuming his anti-Corbynism would shape it to some degree - which it doesn't appear to, at all ) , and then to read no less than Kirk Degiorgio popping up in the comments, digging in further, straight to the economics .( Ken should take frickin' note. )

Kirk Degiorgio "It is the Nazis taking advantage of the terror and despair of fleeing refugees, so as to get more of them to leave more quickly" - I know you are summarising David - but I would add that more important to the Nazis than Jews leaving quickly, was the component of the agreement that stipulated Jewish assets could only be "traded" back for German goods once in Palestine. It was as much about circumventing the boycott of Nazi goods as getting Jews out of the country. That anyone - especially a self-proclaimed Socialist and 'life-long anti-racist" - can interpret this as Hitler supporting Zionism or that there was equal power 'real collaboration' between them is appalling and offensive.


----------



## bimble (Apr 6, 2017)

19force8 said:


> You did notice that in my little post above I referred to _defending "historical fact"_ didn't you?
> 
> The quotes were there to show I wasn't talking about it in the same way Ken does. If that's not good enough, I'll accept the distinction wasn't sufficiently clear and I'm perfectly happy to go back and change the first sentence to read "is based on fact." However I think that would detract from one of the purposes of the post which was to explain *and* demonstrate how and why mention of Hitler derails a topic.
> 
> Your call.



Not sure what you mean here. I was referring to your post where you said "Part of the problem is that it is fact, that's why it keeps cropping up".
I think you meant by 'fact' Livingstone's oft repeated assertion that 'Hitler supported Zionism'. 
So yeah was checking to see if you had changed your view on that, seeing as you 'liked' the David Baddiel thing, where he tries to explain why this is not, in fact, a fact.


----------



## cantsin (Apr 6, 2017)

good Craig Murray piece as well ( apols if posted )

Ken Livingstone: Stubborn and Wrong, But Not Anti-Semitic - Craig Murray

would be good to have someone out there debunking the idea of anti semitism on any signif. scale with the LP as well now .
The idiots drifting around soc media purportedly supporting JC, whilst RTing Icke +  spouting anti sem drivel etc, are nothing to do with the labour movement / LP .


----------



## bimble (Apr 6, 2017)

cantsin said:


> The idiots drifting around soc media purportedly supporting JC, whilst RTing Icke +  spouting anti sem drivel etc, are nothing to do with the labour movement / LP .


Those idiots, there's an awful lot of them. Are you suggesting they're not really supporters of JC & co but false flag accounts?


----------



## 19force8 (Apr 6, 2017)

bimble said:


> Not sure what you mean here. I was referring to your post where you said "Part of the problem is that it is fact, that's why it keeps cropping up".
> I think you meant by 'fact' Livingstone's oft repeated assertion that 'Hitler supported Zionism'.
> So yeah was checking to see if you had changed your view on that, seeing as you 'liked' the David Baddiel thing, where he tries to explain why this is not, in fact, a fact.


I know subtlety is lost on you, but try reading the whole of that post, not just quoting selectively from it. Then read the post you just replied to in which I told you how I would change the original if you couldn't see the point I was making after I explained it. Since you can't, I've made the change.


----------



## bimble (Apr 6, 2017)

19force8 said:


> I know subtlety is lost on you, but try reading the whole of that post, not just quoting selectively from it. Then read the post you just replied to in which I told you how I would change the original if you couldn't see the point I was making after I explained it. Since you can't, I've made the change.


You edited your post but haven't changed your view then. Whatever.


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Apr 6, 2017)

Fuck the neoliberal / zionist tendency, we're never going to get anywhere if we let them push people who don't align with their interests around, through money/media power, as they're doing in this case.

The real issue is whether we can conceivably have our interests represented by a party involved in what passes for democracy in this country.

The answer is apparently not.


----------



## bimble (Apr 6, 2017)

Bernie Gunther said:


> Fuck the neoliberal / zionist tendency, we're never going to get anywhere if we let them push people who don't align with their interests around, through money/media power, as they're doing in this case.
> 
> The real issue is whether we can conceivably have our interests represented by a party involved in what passes for democracy in this country.
> 
> The answer is apparently not.


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Apr 6, 2017)

No. I'm sorry, I've had enough of this.


----------



## cantsin (Apr 6, 2017)

bimble said:


> Those idiots, there's an awful lot of them. Are you suggesting they're not really supporters of JC & co but false flag accounts?



no , I think they're conspiradivs, anti NWO dweebs etc, and anti semites, who drift into online JC support, via wider ' anti elitism' ideas, as well as attracted to JC / Lab Left pro Palestinian postiions fitting in with their anti semitism.

Pure online though, wldnt last 2 mins at a CLP / or any other kind of labour movement related meeting, it would be ridiculous.


----------



## 19force8 (Apr 6, 2017)

bimble said:


> You edited your post but haven't changed your view then. Whatever.


Again:


19force8 said:


> You did notice that in my little post above I referred to _defending "historical fact"_ didn't you?
> 
> The quotes were there to show I wasn't talking about it in the same way Ken does.


E2a
Just to emphasize the point:


> Scare quotes may serve a function similar to verbally preceding a phrase with the expression "so-called"[


from Scare quotes - Wikipedia


----------



## killer b (Apr 6, 2017)

Hasn't Tony Greenstein got some kind of officer position in Brighton CLP?


----------



## likesfish (Apr 6, 2017)

as if he's been chucked out of every group he's ever been in he wouldn't know a legit way to do something if his life depended on it.
 Not that he's actually dishonest just if theres a round about dubious looking way to do something he will choose that way.


----------



## The39thStep (Apr 6, 2017)

killer b said:


> Hasn't Tony Greenstein got some kind of officer position in Brighton CLP?


Fixtures secretary for the Winnie the Pooh Club?


----------



## killer b (Apr 6, 2017)

ah, no. He was elected to some committee in Brighton Momentum



J Ed said:


> Speaking of Corbyn's sherpas, I see that Tony Greenstein has been elected to the Brighton Momentum committee.
> 
> The Zios will be trembling into their boots


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 7, 2017)

Bernie Gunther said:


> Fuck the neoliberal / zionist tendency, we're never going to get anywhere if we let them push people who don't align with their interests around, through money/media power, as they're doing in this case.
> 
> The real issue is whether we can conceivably have our interests represented by a party involved in what passes for democracy in this country.
> 
> The answer is apparently not.



Quite.

Anyone dumb enough to equate _per se_ anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism is not someone involved in even "what passes for democracy".  They're involved in a shell-game that attempts to conflate the irrational hatred and/or fear of Jews with a rational disgust at an ideology.  People who do that don't represent my interests, either as a Jew or a democrat (of the only real kind - an anarchist), they represent the interests of Zionism.  This is as true of members of Labour Friends of Israel and their Conservative peers as it is of the tedious Jewish "Establishment" in the UK - the tail-wagging dogs of the BDBJ, and the heads of the sects.  

As for the interface with neoliberalism, I'd say - in fact I'll state, as some reading this will otherwise make assumptions based on their own prejudices - that's about power alignment and power relations as opposed to alluding to some bullshit about "International Bankers" and other Icke-ist cock-throttling.


----------



## Knotted (Apr 8, 2017)

There's a great deal wrong with what Ken Livingstone said given the context and the false impression it creates and the sheer political stupidity of bringing it up. However, saying that Hitler supported Zionism for a time is not an unreasonable interpretation of history - it's at least fair comment as the Nazi regime lent material support to the Zionist movement under the Haavara agreement - even if it is misleading in terms of Hitler's political outlook and the broader picture.

Now all the fuss is supposed to be about Ken bringing the party into disrepute and that the historical question is irrelevant and that's just bullshit. If Ken came out and said, "Well I shouldn't have started talking about the 1930's even if what I said was substantially true", then all would not be forgiven. He has to withdraw his interpretation of history when frankly he is entitled to it. I despise the Zionist lobby more for its sheer prissiness than for its vile interpretations of events thousands of miles (which they can affect as little as I can). So we're all supposed to tread on egg shells when discussing details of history regarding the Nazi regime now? Fuck that, and good for Ken for sticking to his (idiotic) guns.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 12, 2017)

The American Jewish scholar behind Labour’s ‘antisemitism’ scandal breaks his silence



> Norman G. Finkelstein talks Naz Shah MP, Ken Livingstone, and the Labour ‘antisemitism’ controversy.



I never saw this last year. Didn't realise Finkelstein had been dragged into this shitstorm.


----------



## teqniq (Apr 12, 2017)

whoops wrong person


----------



## 19force8 (Apr 12, 2017)

Rutita1 said:


> The American Jewish scholar behind Labour’s ‘antisemitism’ scandal breaks his silence
> 
> I never saw this last year. Didn't realise Finkelstein had been dragged into this shitstorm.


Yeah, Norman not Danny.

Excellent piece.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 12, 2017)

teqniq said:


> whoops wrong person




Hahaha I saw that and was gonna ask why you disliked him so much...decided to have my lunch instead.


----------



## bimble (Apr 12, 2017)

If you're a bit behind on Finkelstein you may not be aware that he isn't very popular anymore, since saying he thinks the BDS movement is ' a maoist cult'. 
An Unpopular Man


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 12, 2017)

bimble said:


> If you're a bit behind on Finkelstein you may not be aware that he isn't very popular anymore, since saying he thinks the BDS movement is ' a maoist cult'.
> An Unpopular Man


Didn't stop the anti-Deutsch picketing our place when he came to town.


----------



## 19force8 (Apr 12, 2017)

bimble said:


> If you're a bit behind on Finkelstein you may not be aware that he isn't very popular anymore, since saying he thinks the BDS movement is ' a maoist cult'.
> An Unpopular Man


That would be five years ago.

And he didn't say it is a Maoist cult. That would be plain stupidity, but hey, your reading skills.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 12, 2017)

bimble said:


> If you're a bit behind on Finkelstein you may not be aware that he isn't very popular anymore, since saying he thinks the BDS movement is ' a maoist cult'.
> An Unpopular Man


Perhaps you should actually read the article, which says nothing of the sort


----------



## bimble (Apr 12, 2017)

Ok.


----------



## cantsin (Apr 12, 2017)

bimble said:


> If you're a bit behind on Finkelstein you may not be aware that he isn't very popular anymore, since saying he thinks the BDS movement is ' a maoist cult'.
> An Unpopular Man



huh ? 

 Since coming out in 2012 against the Boycott, Divestment, and Sanctions (BDS) movement, however, he has alienated his core followers. A few years ago, Finkelstein tells me, he made $40,000 in speaking fees from 80 talks to Palestinian Solidarity groups around North America. “This past year when I went to my accountant ... he said, 'I think you have a mistake here, it's only $3,000.' I said, 'No, it's not an error.' He said, 'What happened?' And I thought to myself: Am I going to explain to him BDS?"


----------



## teqniq (Jun 17, 2017)

Labour's Israel lobby plans to relaunch campaign against Corbyn


----------



## frogwoman (Jun 17, 2017)

teqniq said:


> Labour's Israel lobby plans to relaunch campaign against Corbyn



Hmm I'm not sure that's a reliable source any more (they've been really pro Assad afaik) and imo there are legitimate grounds to criticise him on this eg raed salah, his work for press TV, etc. However some of the criticisms are looking a bit deranged at the moment since the worst of it was a number of years ago, his views have clearly shifted on some issues, and so trying to make him out to be a racist scumbag just doesn't work in my opinion.


----------



## teqniq (Jun 17, 2017)

frogwoman said:


> Hmm I'm not sure that's a reliable source any more (they've been really pro Assad afaik) and imo there are legitimate grounds to criticise him on this eg raed salah, his work for press TV, etc. However some of the criticisms are looking a bit deranged at the moment since the worst of it was a number of years ago, his views have clearly shifted on some issues, and so trying to make him out to be a racist scumbag just doesn't work in my opinion.


I take your point entirely, especially the pro-Assad stuff, but have a look at the linked Jewish chronicle stuff which is where in fact I first read about this.


----------



## cantsin (Jul 25, 2017)

Mini hooha about Haringey Council's'  passing of broad / apparently non too controversial anti semitism motion last night , opposed by pro BDS group ( for allegedly attempting to stifle debate ), and with Haringey Momentum calling for lobby / (demo?) against it.

 Labour councillor since spraying around accusations re:  Momentum thugs thugging it in the chamber etc, others saying no Momentum there, it was pro Palestine group ( and not thuggy ) but have to say, am having trouble seeing exactly what there is to object to in the motion as out lined below, or whether there is more proscription / restriction etc detailed elsewhere - don't know if anyone knows more about all this ?

Agenda item - To consider the following Motions in accordance with Council Rules of Procedure No. 13 | Haringey Council


----------



## frogwoman (Jul 25, 2017)

Huh? Can't see anything to object in that at all. It's really hard not to draw some worrying conclusions by the fact they are calling a demo against it


----------



## J Ed (Jul 25, 2017)

frogwoman said:


> Huh? Can't see anything to object in that at all. It's really hard not to draw some worrying conclusions by the fact they are calling a demo against it



Yes, it seems like a reasonable and fair minded agenda item. I have no idea who is objecting to it but whoever is doing so is either ignorant or bigoted or a combination or the two.


----------



## bimble (Jul 25, 2017)

i reckon the objection may be to the bit that says

Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavour.


----------



## eoin_k (Jul 25, 2017)

frogwoman said:


> Huh? Can't see anything to object in that at all. It's really hard not to draw some worrying conclusions by the fact they are calling a demo against it



How do you read passages like this one?



> Manifestations might include the targeting of the state of Israel, conceived as a Jewish collectivity. However, criticism of Israel similar to that levelled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic.



Doesn't this equate anti-zionism with an anti-semitism? What room does it leave for people to argue that the state of Israel should be abolished, precisely, because it is conceived of in terms that privilege one ethno-religious community over others?


----------



## cantsin (Jul 25, 2017)

bimble said:


> i reckon the objection may be to the bit that says
> 
> Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavour.



that's a line that could be objected to you'd guess...and is problematic


----------



## Sifta (Jul 25, 2017)

bimble said:


> i reckon the objection may be to the bit that says
> 
> Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavour.



Also this:

. Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.

is spreading the net wide. Gerald Kaufman, in parliament,  compared the actions of Israeli troops in Gaza to the Nazis who forced his family to flee Poland.


----------



## frogwoman (Jul 25, 2017)

eoin_k said:


> How do you read passages like this one?
> 
> 
> 
> Doesn't this equate anti-zionism with an anti-semitism? What room does it leave for people to argue that the state of Israel should be abolished, precisely, because it is conceived of in terms that privilege one ethno-religious community over others?



'conceived as a Jewish collectivity' is really ambiguous though. I took it to mean Jewish people were collectively responsible for it  it does say that criticism of Israel as you would every other country is not antisemitic??


----------



## eoin_k (Jul 25, 2017)

frogwoman said:


> 'conceived as a Jewish collectivity' is really ambiguous though.



Deliberately so, perhaps.

It's kind of ironic that when people who claim to be on the left get justifiably called out for using the words 'jewish' and 'Israeli' interchangeably this sort of ambiguity is also being deliberately fostered by a section on the other side of the debate.


----------



## eoin_k (Jul 25, 2017)

frogwoman said:


> '... it does say that criticism of Israel as you would every other country is not antisemitic??



Can you criticise any country for being conceived on ethno-religious grounds though? And, is there a difference between criticising and calling for the abolition of a state?


----------



## frogwoman (Jul 25, 2017)

eoin_k said:


> Can you criticise any country for being conceived on ethno-religious grounds though? And, is there a difference between criticising and calling for the abolition of a state?



Yes you can?

Saudi Arabia? Armenia (which also has law of return stuff btw) The Serbian orthodox church which has preached racial separatism in the past? Myanmar... I would say yes of course you could


----------



## eoin_k (Jul 25, 2017)

frogwoman said:


> Yes you can?
> 
> Saudi Arabia?



We're talking at cross purposes due to another layer of ambiguity. My point isn't Israeli exceptionalism, but rather that Israel isn't just 'any' state. It is one of a number of states that are conceived of in ethno-religous rather than civic terms.


----------



## frogwoman (Jul 25, 2017)

Nobody in their right mind would criticise eg the recent laws preventing Muslims from marrying Buddhists in Myanmar which are specifically described as 'to protect race and religion' from being anti Buddhist


----------



## frogwoman (Jul 25, 2017)

eoin_k said:


> We're talking at cross purposes due to another layer of ambiguity. My point isn't Israeli exceptionalism, but rather that Israel isn't just 'any' state. It is one of a number of states that are conceived of in ethno-religous rather than civic terms.



Sure, în that case of course you could criticise it, like you would any of the others.


----------



## eoin_k (Jul 25, 2017)

frogwoman said:


> Sure, în that case of course you could criticise it, like you would any of the others.



Personally, yes I would, and the boundary between civic and ethno nationalism isn't clear cut either. But, is it inherently antisemitic for a member of the Palestinian diaspora to call for the abolition of the state of Israel, specifically, without situating it within an entirely consistent general critique of nationalism? If not, does this wording make this clear?


----------



## frogwoman (Jul 25, 2017)

eoin_k said:


> Personally, yes I would, and the boundary between civic and ethno nationalism isn't clear cut either. But, is it inherently antisemitic for a member of the Palestinian diaspora to call for the abolition of the state of Israel, specifically, without situating it within an entirely consistent general critique of nationalism? If not, does this wording make this clear?



I took it to mean criticise it *as you would every other country*. Of course you don't have to mention every other country each time you talk about Israel, in the same way you don't have to list other countries when talking about Saudi Arabia  

I don't see how the 'abolition of the state of Israel'  is going to occur tbh, but no of course you shouldn't be required to denounce other countries when you talk about it, there's other things that make criticisms of Israel antisemitic.


----------



## eoin_k (Jul 25, 2017)

frogwoman said:


> I took it to mean criticise it *as you would every other country*. Of course you don't have to mention every other country each time you talk about Israel, in the same way you don't have to list other countries when talking about Saudi Arabia


Maybe, I've been unclear. From a non-anti-semitic anti-zionist perspective, isn't the specific issue with Israel precisely that it is 'conceived as a Jewish collectivity'.


----------



## frogwoman (Jul 25, 2017)

eoin_k said:


> Maybe, I've been unclear. From a non-anti-semitic anti-zionist perspective, isn't the specific issue with Israel precisely that it is 'conceived as a Jewish collectivity'.



other countries like the ones I have mentioned, also have that problem. I mean afaik no churches are allowed to be built in Saudi, because of its constitution and basis on sharia law. if you criticised Saudi for being 'Muslim scum' or something then it would be Islamophobic but if you are just criticising it's laws and how it is governed, then it's fine.

So I don't get how criticising Israel for religious discrimination is antisemitic because you're criticising it for something loads of places could be attacked for.  I don't know how it would come under what's said in that motion.


----------



## eoin_k (Jul 25, 2017)

frogwoman said:


> other countries like the ones I have mentioned, also have that problem. I mean afaik no churches are allowed to be built in Saudi, because of its constitution and basis on sharia law. if you criticised Saudi for being 'Muslim scum' or something then it would be Islamophobic but if you are just criticising it's laws and how it is governed, then it's fine.
> 
> So I don't get how criticising Israel for religious discrimination is antisemitic because you're criticising it for something loads of places could be attacked for.



What if we take the point I'm trying to make in the context of this other line:


> Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavour.


This section seems to explicitly link the existence of the State of Israel to the 'Jewish people' legitiamtely exercising their collective right to self determination... which doesn't seem entirely consistent with your reading of the text. I'm not trying to argue with you that anti-Zionist politics are necessarily correct here by the way (wrt to your earlier point about the abolition of the Israeli state) just that they aren't inherently anti-semitic and that this motion suggested otherwise...


----------



## frogwoman (Jul 25, 2017)

eoin_k said:


> What if we take the point I'm trying to make in the context of this other line:
> 
> This section seems to explicitly link the existence of the State of Israel to the 'Jewish people' legitiamtely exercising their collective right to self determination... which doesn't seem entirely consistent with your reading of the text. I'm not trying to argue with you that anti-Zionist politics are necessarily correct here by the way (wrt to your earlier point about the abolition of the Israel state) just that they aren't inherently anti-semitic and that this motion suggested otherwise...



the thing is , every single person knows that it's not anti-semitic to criticise Israel. but it's very obvious there are people who use that criticism as a cover for something else, just as there are a lot of people who use criticism of isis and Saudi to justify prejudiced views of muslims in general. for example i read on the news the other day that a random muslim family were abused by someone calling them an 'isis cunt' now that isn't a political point against the illegitimacy of terrorism is it??

i don't see how Israel is going to be 'abolished' at this point, i also think a lot of the end goals of anti-Zionism are impossible without a massive war at the moment .

i don't think it's intrinsically antisemitic no but i can understand why people say so, especially as you do get a lot of people who aren't palestinian or jewish but are weirdly obsessed with Israel, but don't call for the abolition of states such as say turkey and Saudi that are founded on similar bloodshed, or states that have similar laws that favour a particular religious group (like say Myanmar).

but no of course a palestinian (or anyone else) criticising Israel and being in favour of anti-Zionism doesn't make them automatically anti-semitic if they don't mention other countries as well. i took 'as you would every other country' to mean making the same criticisms that could be made of other countries that are doing the same or similar things


----------



## eoin_k (Jul 25, 2017)

Hey frogwoman,

What about this section:


> Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavour.



This seems problematic on two levels. First, it suggests that the state of Israel represents the collective will of some sort of homogenous 'Jewish people'-i.e. the very thing that you would rightly call out an anti-Semite for doing. Such a definition is, however, at least half accurate: it might be problematic in terms of the assumptions it makes about how representative the Israeli state is of Jewish people, but Israel is self-defined as a Jewish state. Here is where the second problem arises. Anyone who questions the existence of such an ethno-religious state is branded anti-Semitic. Now, I realise that I have glossed over the specific contexts from which both Zionism and then the State of Israel emerged. I'm not asking you to agree that 'the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavour', or at least that this makes it somehow uniquely deserving of opprobrium among the community of nation states. But not only does this motion conflate anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism in a manner that should be challenged as robustly as the views of anti-Semites who do the same, it also applies the same standards to any broader perspectives that generally deny ethno-religious nationalism as a legitimate basis for exercising political power.

BTW Palestine isn't something that I obsess about, although I can understand why my neighbour who comes from a family of refugees might hold Israel to account more vigorously than 'any other democratic nation'. To be honest this motion offends me as much because of how it misrepresents the histories and values of my Jewish friends and relatives. Plenty of them could fall foul of its definition of antiSemitism.


----------



## frogwoman (Jul 25, 2017)

yeah im not disagreeing with you and you'd get no disagreement from me that Israel is a very fucked up state 

I guess it depends what was said. having a demo against this motion seems a bit of overkill though to say the least though when all that's needed is a change of wording in one or two sentences .



eoin_k said:


> Hey frogwoman,
> 
> What about this section:
> 
> ...


----------



## articul8 (Jul 25, 2017)

frogwoman said:


> yeah im not disagreeing with you and you'd get no disagreement from me that Israel is a very fucked up state
> 
> I guess it depends what was said. having a demo against this motion seems a bit of overkill though to say the least though when all that's needed is a change of wording in one or two sentences .


there's a BIG difference between opposing a particular definition of anti-semtism and being anti-semitic.  The IHRA definition is being used to de-legitimise criticism of Israel per se - it's very clear.


----------



## frogwoman (Jul 25, 2017)

articul8 said:


> there's a BIG difference between opposing a particular definition of anti-semtism and being anti-semitic.  The IHRA definition is being used to de-legitimise criticism of Israel per se - it's very clear.



of course. but I don't see a big problem with most of what's in that motion (is that the same as what's in the definition, dunno) and yeah I agree some of it needs to be reworded as it's a bit confusing.


----------



## eoin_k (Jul 25, 2017)

It's the wording formulated by an intergovernmental organisation though, rather than just poorly drafted motion by someone at Haringey Council. This definition of anti-semitism is being deliberately rolled out, internationally, by a body that includes the Israeli government among its affiliates.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 5, 2017)

They expelled Moshe Machover of all people for anti-semitism this week.


----------



## Poi E (Oct 5, 2017)

Dear God.


----------



## belboid (Oct 5, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> They expelled Moshe Machover of all people for anti-semitism this week.


Well, they actually expelled him for being a member of the CPGB, tho it was the ‘anti-semitism’ that kicked it all off.


----------



## cantsin (Oct 5, 2017)

belboid said:


> Well, they actually expelled him for being a member of the CPGB, tho it was the ‘anti-semitism’ that kicked it all off.



Lab and CPGB down here very happily working together it seems, CPGB main face is a local ledge, Union man. 

If Iian Mcnicol isnt dealt with soon, it's going to get silly.


----------



## teqniq (Oct 9, 2017)

Machover expulsion update • Jewish Voice for Labour



> The farce continues…
> A supplementary expulsion letter from Sam Matthews, Head of Disputes at the Labour Party has “clarified” the grounds for Moshé Machover’ summary expulsion.
> 
> He is now being done solely for being in breach of Chapter 2.I.4.B of the Labour Party’s rules. viz. joining or supporting “a political organisation other than an official Labour Group or unit of the Party”. Presumably supporting Compass, or Making Votes Matter, or Labour Friends of Israel, none of which to the best of our knowledge is an “official group or unit of the Party”, are equally punishable by summary expulsion.


----------



## Riklet (Oct 12, 2017)

What was supposedly said at the conference recently didn't seem very anti-semitic to me.  Seems to be the same woeful direction as the USA where one cannot discuss Israel and Zionism without anti-semitism being bandied about.  Which ironically is unbelievably insulting to huge numbers of Jewish people, guess that this is lost on these tools.


----------



## teqniq (Nov 1, 2017)

Facing outcry, UK Labour reverses expulsion of anti-Zionist Moshé Machover

But no apology apparently.


----------



## 19force8 (Dec 13, 2017)

cantsin said:


> If Iian Mcnicol isnt dealt with soon, it's going to get silly.


It seems Tony Greenstein had to get an injunction to stop the NCC railroading him.

Something about 17 months to prepare the case against him, less than five weeks to respond to a 189 page bundle with 50 accusations, only one day for the hearing and a blanket refusal to consider a postponement.

Meanwhile he's trying to crowdfund a libel case against the Campaign Against Antisemtism.

Such fun.


----------



## belboid (Dec 13, 2017)

Such a shame he's such a shit.


----------



## killer b (Dec 13, 2017)

I think it's probably fair enough to do whatever is necessary to keep Greenstein out of your political party tbf.


----------



## Knotted (Dec 16, 2017)

Brian Klug on (leftwing) anti-Zionism and anti-semitism:


> Yes, Zionism is part of the history of European imperialism in the twentieth century, and it was a settler project. However, the plight of millions of marginalized European Jews in the first half of the century, together with their hopes and aspirations for a better life, are one thing; the imperial ambitions of European powers that set out to colonize the globe in order to extend the scope of their rule, plunder resources and create captive markets for their products, are another. When the left gives the impression that this subtle difference eludes them, when they fold Zionism tout court into the story of European hegemony, then they have erased from the record the argument that went on in the shtetls of Europe over the way out for Jews from oppression, which is the back story for Zionism. When they erase this back story, is it any wonder if a ripple of discomfort spreads among the rank and file of Jews, including many of us who repudiate Zionism, condemn the occupation of the West Bank and the siege of Gaza, and denounce the oppression of Palestinians by the State of Israel? You don’t have to ‘love Israel’ to feel this discomfort.
> 
> It is a short step from feeling this discomfort to sensing antisemitism, even if that perception is false — especially when phrases like ‘the power of the Israel lobby’ or ‘the influence of the Zionist media’ are loosely bandied about, conjuring up ghosts of a ghastly past, rubbing new salt into old wounds. To quote the late anti-Zionist socialist Jew Steve Cohen, “Any group which claims to be against anti-semitism should be ultra-vigilant in the imagery it evokes.”(8) The same rule of thumb applies to all forms of racism: it is a fundamental principle of anti- racist action. Which does not mean pulling your punches. Nothing I have said is intended to suggest that anyone should go soft in arguing against Zionism as an idea or Israel as a state. I certainly do not intend to tone down my criticism.


Zionism, Antisemitism and the Left Today • Jewish Voice for Labour

I agree with this and I think with the level of dickishness around the subjects of Israel and Zionism it should be widely distributed.

There is a sense in which people like Ken Livingstone and Tony Greenstein bring it on themselves. At the same time, there's no question that they should be readmitted to the Labour Party. Dickishness should not mean expulsions.


----------



## agricola (Dec 16, 2017)

Knotted said:


> There is a sense in which people like Ken Livingstone and Tony Greenstein bring it on themselves. At the same time, there's no question that they should be readmitted to the Labour Party. Dickishness should not mean expulsions.



Livingstone should be kept out, not so much for what he said (which was bad enough) but because he knew what damage it would do, did it anyway and then kept doing it.


----------



## Knotted (Dec 16, 2017)

"We'll expel you not because of what you said but because of how it will get exploited." That's really shit. Sure the Labour Party thinks that way, but this is Urban75. We don't lower ourselves to the standards of Labour Party apparatchiks. Do we?


----------



## killer b (Dec 16, 2017)

Quite. We'd reward that kind of strategic incompetence with an ice pick.


----------



## Knotted (Dec 16, 2017)

Over-reacting to this does broader damage. There are definitely a small number Labour members who are anti-semites and there are many more who are on the cusp. Given the conspiratorial nature of anti-semitism - how much damage does it do to say that you can't discuss the Zionist movement's relation to the Nazis in the 1930's? Some bad publicity for the Labour Party does not cut it compared to the broader questions involved. Going back to the Brian Klug piece, there needs to be a bit of calm discussion on these issues. Who benefits from polarisation here?


----------



## Knotted (Dec 16, 2017)

Incidentally Moshe Machover was accused of anti-semitism for defending Ken Livingstone and repeating and elabourating on his thesis. He also "damaged" the Labour Party in doing so ie. there were some bad headlines. Are you going after him as well? He's a much more respected figure for lefties than Livingstone is, but his crimes are the same. How have the immediate interests of the Labour Party become so vital around here?


----------



## killer b (Dec 16, 2017)

Have the immediate interests of the Labour Party become vital round here? 

FWIW: I would want Greenstein out of any group I was a member of. Partly because the _calm discussion_ which you think is so necessary simply is isn't possible with him involved.


----------



## Knotted (Dec 16, 2017)

I used to be a member of the Scottish Socialist Party at the time it was quite big and making headway. As you can probably imagine it had more than its fair share of Tony Greensteins (and worse, much worse) and yet there was a lot of calm discussion eg. over hot potatoes such as Northern Ireland, drugs, prostitution and homophobia (there was a small but very vocal homophobic contingent). We kind of managed. Admittedly it then all fell a part. But surely the Labour Party can cope with Greenstein. The broader point is that this is not just a bureaucratic measure against a troublesome individual (and to be fair he's more just a bit of prick than any real trouble), this is part of a struggle for the control of the Labour Party.


----------



## doodlelogic (Dec 16, 2017)

It all comes back to Steve Cohen's pamphlet.


----------



## Smoking kills (Dec 17, 2017)

agricola said:


> Livingstone should be kept out, not so much for what he said (which was bad enough) but because he knew what damage it would do, did it anyway and then kept doing it.


I think you may be giving Ken too much credit in the self or political awareness stakes. I never thought his love of amphibious skin shedding colour changing reptiles was a coincidence ifykwim.
Surely it would be worth re-admitting him just to piss John Mann off?


----------



## tim (Dec 17, 2017)

At least he made the buses run on time!


----------



## belboid (Feb 18, 2018)

Greenstein has been expelled.

Labour Activist Tony Greenstein Expelled From Party Over Antisemitism


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 18, 2018)

belboid said:


> Greenstein has been expelled.
> 
> Labour Activist Tony Greenstein Expelled From Party Over Antisemitism



Man with Yiddish name guilty of anti-semitism.

What did he say online, the article doesn't go into detail?

Is 'Zio' short for Zionist?


----------



## belboid (Feb 18, 2018)

Rutita1 said:


> Man with Yiddish name guilty of anti-semitism.
> 
> What did he say online, the article doesn't go into detail?
> 
> Is 'Zio' short for Zionist?


He said Zionism is Jewish anti-semitism, zionists were  nazis collaborators, and thatcher was a legitimate target.

It is - in a very small number of places


----------



## bimble (Feb 18, 2018)

What’s a Yiddish name?


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 18, 2018)

I was going to politely point out that ‘greenstein’ is the anglicisation of a German surname. There’s nothing Yiddish about it.

Also not sure what’s sad about someone with an Ashkenazi background being expelled for antisemism. Why the sad face Rutita1 (genuine question, not sure what you’re getting at with your emoji)


----------



## Humirax (Feb 18, 2018)

What did this Greenstein fella say that was so antisemitic? If someone could provide a quote that would be much appreciated. I'm not suprised he got the boot though, personally attacking and insulting members of your own party like that isn't going to do you any favours.


----------



## Humirax (Feb 19, 2018)

I'd say that the zionist movement has certainly capitalized on anti-semitism (this is obvious and is something that Norman G. Finkelstein has explored and written about) and my understanding is that they were not exactly co-operative regarding helping non-zionist jewish holocaust victims. My understanding is that the zionist movement (or atleast a part of that movement) were only too happy for non-zionist jews to perish and that they acknowledged the convenience of this. Having said that it has been some time since I examined this topic and if I'm incorrect then it would be great if someone could put me right.

I remember reading one of Finkelstein's books some years ago (The Holocaust Industry) and it was interesting and I recommend that people read it, he explores how the right-wing jews never liked to talk about the holocaust immediately after the war because it didn't at all aid their cause to bring people's attention to certain German scientists and whose side they were on after the war. In comparison, left-wing jews were open about the holocaust and were enthusiastic that we learned from it. Finkelstein's book is also interesting in other ways.


----------



## 19force8 (Feb 19, 2018)

Humirax said:


> What did this Greenstein fella say that was so antisemitic? If someone could provide a quote that would be much appreciated. I'm not suprised he got the boot though, personally attacking and insulting members of your own party like that isn't going to do you any favours.


According to Tony he wasn't expelled for anti-semitism as such, but for being offensive to/about other Labour Party members:


> The charges which were brought, as the barrister for the Labour Party was at pains to point out, were *not *that I was anti-Semitic although of course the Zionists will pretend otherwise. My ‘crime’ in essence was the abuse of racists and Zionists (or Zios) in the Labour Party including that detestable supporter of Palestinian child abuse, Louise Ellman.



Full tedious details here: Tony Greenstein's Blog

Honestly, I don't think the guy's an anti-semite, but he is one of those hair trigger ranters and grudge bearers few, if any, political parties would be able tolerate for long.


----------



## 19force8 (Feb 19, 2018)

Humirax said:


> I'd say that the zionist movement has certainly capitalized on anti-semitism (this is obvious and is something that Norman G. Finkelstein has explored and written about) and my understanding is that they were not exactly co-operative regarding helping non-zionist jewish holocaust victims. My understanding is that the zionist movement (or atleast a part of that movement) were only too happy for non-zionist jews to perish and that they acknowledged the convenience of this. Having said that it has been some time since I examined this topic and if I'm incorrect then it would be great if someone could put me right.
> 
> I remember reading one of Finkelstein's books some years ago (The Holocaust Industry) and it was interesting and I recommend that people read it, he explores how the right-wing jews never liked to talk about the holocaust immediately after the war because it didn't at all aid their cause to bring people's attention to certain German scientists and whose side they were on after the war. In comparison, left-wing jews were open about the holocaust and were enthusiastic that we learned from it. Finkelstein's book is also interesting in other ways.


It seems that holocaust survivors embarrass Israel in more ways than one. For example, by pointing out the similarities between Israel's treatment of African refugees and Eichman's expulsion of Jews from Vienna.


----------



## bimble (Feb 19, 2018)

Great, Finkelstein again. Beloved by David Irving and neo-nazis everywhere.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 19, 2018)

bimble said:


> Great, Finkelstein again. Beloved by David Irving and neo-nazis everywhere.


Nice twist on the ad hom there, avoiding dealing with the substance of his work.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 19, 2018)

bimble said:


> Great, Finkelstein again. Beloved by David Irving and neo-nazis everywhere.


I generally ignore your posts nowadays, but that is so stupid it deserves comment.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 19, 2018)

Humirax said:


> I'd say that the zionist movement has certainly capitalized on anti-semitism (this is obvious and is something that Norman G. Finkelstein has explored and written about) and my understanding is that they were not exactly co-operative regarding helping non-zionist jewish holocaust victims. My understanding is that the zionist movement (or atleast a part of that movement) were only too happy for non-zionist jews to perish and that they acknowledged the convenience of this. Having said that it has been some time since I examined this topic and if I'm incorrect then it would be great if someone could put me right.
> 
> I remember reading one of Finkelstein's books some years ago (The Holocaust Industry) and it was interesting and I recommend that people read it, he explores how the right-wing jews never liked to talk about the holocaust immediately after the war because it didn't at all aid their cause to bring people's attention to certain German scientists and whose side they were on after the war. In comparison, left-wing jews were open about the holocaust and were enthusiastic that we learned from it. Finkelstein's book is also interesting in other ways.


I don't remember anything in it suggesting or supporting the idea that right wing Jews used the holocaust as an opportunity to get rid of left wing Jews or others who opposed their political positions. Are you sure?


----------



## 19force8 (Feb 19, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> I don't remember anything in it suggesting or supporting the idea that right wing Jews used the holocaust as an opportunity to get rid of left wing Jews or others who opposed their political positions. Are you sure?


I think there might be some conflation here between a suggestion that zionists in Palestine during WWII didn't concern themselves unduly about the fate of europe's jews, and the willingness of right wingers in the 1950s to throw anti-nazi jews under the McCarthyite bus.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 19, 2018)

19force8 said:


> I think there might be some conflation here between a suggestion that zionists in Palestine during WWII didn't concern themselves unduly about the fate of europe's jews, and the willingness of right wingers in the 1950s to throw anti-nazi jews under the McCarthyite bus.


If so, it's rather a serious conflation isn't it?


----------



## 19force8 (Feb 19, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> I generally ignore your posts nowadays, but that is so stupid it deserves comment.


And yet it's not an uncommon view in certain quarters. This from the Jerusalem Post:



> Engage has noted the following of Finkelstein''s exploitation of the Holocaust:
> 
> Neo-Nazis adored this book. Ernst Zundel wrote that “Finkelstein continues his one-man intifada against the Holocaust establishment and vigorously attacks the Holocaust profiteers [in his] ever-so-feisty volume.” David Irving was proud to admit that he had corresponded for years with Finkelstein. The IHR’s _Journal for Historical Review_ bestowed the highest praise on Finkelstein’s work: “the kind of things revisionists have been saying for years… one can find much of… Finkelstein prefigured in the early writings of Butz and Faurisson."



The Holocaust Industry: Finkelstein, Gary Spedding and the Anti-Israel Activist 2.0 - Blogs - Jerusalem Post

Also an interesting insight into the history of G Spedding.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 19, 2018)

19force8 said:


> And yet it's not an uncommon view in certain quarters. This from the Jerusalem Post:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I can't see the same suggested conflation in that.


----------



## 19force8 (Feb 19, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> If so, it's rather a serious conflation isn't it?


Absolutely, but as Humirax said he wasn't sure of this he's open to being corrected. I'm not in a position  to do so as it's years since I read the book and I don't have access to check at the moment.


----------



## 19force8 (Feb 19, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> I can't see the same suggested conflation in that.


Crossed wires, this was a reference to bimble's view of Finkelstein as a friend of David Irving


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 19, 2018)

19force8 said:


> And yet it's not an uncommon view in certain quarters. This from the Jerusalem Post:
> 
> 
> The Holocaust Industry: Finkelstein, Gary Spedding and the Anti-Israel Activist 2.0 - Blogs - Jerusalem Post
> ...



My understanding is that Finkelstein gets a lot of flack because he is so critical of the Israeli state and refuses to yield. Is the suggestion here that he is working with/alongside anti-semetic nutjobs and neo-nazis? Is he being blamed for others' misuse of his work?


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 19, 2018)

19force8 said:


> Crossed wires, this was a reference to bimble's view of Finkelstein as a friend of David Irving


Ok, gotcha.


----------



## 19force8 (Feb 19, 2018)

Rutita1 said:


> My understanding is that Finkelstein gets a lot of flack because he is so critical of the Israeli state and refuses to yield. Is the suggestion here that he is working with/alongside anti-semetic nutjobs and neo-nazis?


It is





Rutita1 said:


> Is he being blamed for others' misuse of his work?


He is. 

[edited for clarity]

What I couldn't figure out was why a worm like Spedding merited an attack piece in the Jerusalem Post. But then I'm not familiar with that organ's priorities.


----------



## bimble (Feb 19, 2018)

19force8 said:


> And yet it's not an uncommon view in certain quarters. This from the Jerusalem Post:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes that's what I was referring to,  the friendly correspondence between Fink and Irving and the popularity of his works on neo-nazi websites, where the full text of the bestseller can be read alongside such classics as The Hoax of the twentieth Century & The International Jew by Ford. . If I feel like getting riled later will come back and post a few of my 'favourite' quotes of his.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 19, 2018)

Talking of McCarthy...classic double smear. Someone nasty has misused his work therefore he's dodgy. And_ I have some quotes on this here piece of paper.

Classic Bimble._


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 19, 2018)

bimble said:


> Yes that's what I was referring to,  the friendly correspondence between Fink and Irving and the popularity of his works on neo-nazi websites, where the full text of the bestseller can be read alongside such classics as The Hoax of the twentieth Century & The International Jew by Ford. . If I feel like getting riled later will come back and post a few of my 'favourite' quotes of his.


right. so you're blaming finkelstein for the popularity of his works on neo-nazi websites.


----------



## bimble (Feb 19, 2018)

If you want to hero-worship Finkelstein as some truth-to-power renegade go ahead but maybe just pause and consider as an example of his way of carrying on how he treats of the ordeal of the Swiss Banks v the rapacious jews in his book.
If you have any interest in what actually happened with the Swiss banks (see Volcker Report) and then look at how Finkelstein portrays the whole thing, you will notice that he omits entirely from his book the facts that don't fit his story of the banks as spotless victims of a grave injustice. If you don't know any better you'd believe him that the banks did nothing wrong. "Switzerland was easy prey.. The shakedown of Switzerland and Germany has been only the prelude to the grand finale.."But he's a marxist so its all good yeah.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 19, 2018)

One day you will make a post that doesn't mainly consist of aggressively putting words and positions in others mouths. I'm sure of it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 19, 2018)

bimble said:


> If you want to hero-worship Finkelstein as some truth-to-power renegade go ahead but maybe just pause and consider as an example of his way of carrying on how he treats of the ordeal of the Swiss Banks v the rapacious jews in his book.
> If you have any interest in what actually happened with the Swiss banks (see Volcker Report) and then look at how Finkelstein portrays the whole thing, you will notice that he omits entirely from his book the facts that don't fit his story of the banks as spotless victims of a grave injustice. If you don't know any better you'd believe him that the banks did nothing wrong. "Switzerland was easy prey.. The shakedown of Switzerland and Germany has been only the prelude to the grand finale.."But he's a marxist so its all good yeah.


here we go again. i'm not 'hero-worshipping' him, i'm just expecting you to have a half-arsed go at proving your case. you don't even give a page number for your quote, nor have you given any real substantiation of your claim about irving's correspondence. couldn't you at least try to be honest about what people say instead of making up motivations?


----------



## bimble (Feb 19, 2018)

I can't do this subject without getting really wound up and posting intemperate things in anger so will try to leave everyone else to it.


----------



## Humirax (Feb 19, 2018)

I'd just like to make it clear that I had no idea about David Irving and Finkelstein, this is news to me and I hope the two are not friends. If it is to be believed that they are though, some evidence is required. And as I say, I am by no means an expert on all this and have not gone into this stuff for years.


----------



## Humirax (Feb 19, 2018)

David Irving is ofcourse a vile bigot and hate-monger, the man is a piece of shit.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 19, 2018)

bimble said:


> Yes that's what I was referring to,  *the friendly correspondence between Fink and Irving* and the popularity of his works on neo-nazi websites, .


Do you have examples of this? It's a pretty serious claim to leave hanging like that.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 19, 2018)

bimble said:


> I can't do this subject without getting really wound up and posting intemperate things in anger so will try to leave everyone else to it.


Intemperate things, or made-up things, like the friendly correspondence you referred to? Before you run off, you need to say what evidence you have for this statement, no? If none, say 'none'.


----------



## 19force8 (Feb 19, 2018)

Humirax said:


> I'd just like to make it clear that I had no idea about David Irving and Finkelstein, this is news to me and I hope the two are not friends. If it is to be believed that they are though, some evidence is required. And as I say, I am by no means an expert on all this and have not gone into this stuff for years.


To put your mind at ease - here's Finkelstein on Irving:



> In a speech at Yale University in 2005, Finkelstein said of Irving that "personally, I don't like the fellow...I think he is a Nazi", but that he thought Irving was useful as a devil's advocate. (Normanfinkelstein.com. Retrieved 18 August 2014.) on Critical responses to David Irving - Wikipedia


In case we're getting serious about references


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 19, 2018)

bimble said:


> I can't do this subject without getting really wound up and posting intemperate things in anger so will try to leave everyone else to it.


so it's good to know the intemperate things you've posted thus far have been done in a calm and collected fashion.


----------



## bimble (Feb 19, 2018)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Intemperate things, or made-up things, like the friendly correspondence you referred to? Before you run off, you need to say what evidence you have for this statement, no? If none, say 'none'.


will do with references when back in later. After that for own sanity will stay out of the topic on here.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 19, 2018)

Regarding the non-relationship between Finkelstein and Irving, well I've looked and looked and looked and it keeps coming back to the same thing...Nicely summarised here with transcripts from The Holocaust Industry and one of Freedland's articles in the JC.

Jonathan Freedland keeps digging—how low will he go? - Norman G. Finkelstein

Freedland misquoted him?


----------



## 19force8 (Feb 19, 2018)

bimble said:


> If you want to hero-worship Finkelstein as some truth-to-power renegade go ahead but maybe just pause and consider as an example of his way of carrying on how he treats of the ordeal of the Swiss Banks v the rapacious jews in his book.
> If you have any interest in what actually happened with the Swiss banks (see Volcker Report) and then look at how Finkelstein portrays the whole thing, you will notice that he omits entirely from his book the facts that don't fit his story of the banks as spotless victims of a grave injustice. If you don't know any better you'd believe him that the banks did nothing wrong. "Switzerland was easy prey.. The shakedown of Switzerland and Germany has been only the prelude to the grand finale.."But he's a marxist so its all good yeah.


You've read the book then.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 19, 2018)

bimble said:


> will do with references when back in later. After that for own sanity will stay out of the topic on here.


*taps watch*


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 19, 2018)

Rutita1 said:


> Regarding the non-relationship between Finkelstein and Irving, well I've looked and looked and looked and it keeps coming back to the same thing...Nicely summarised here with transcripts from The Holocaust Industry and one of Freedland's articles in the JC.
> 
> Jonathan Freedland keeps digging—how low will he go? - Norman G. Finkelstein
> 
> Freedland misquoted him?


Perhaps bimble will provide the references she doubtless has to substantiate her claim. Cos she wouldn't bullshit us, would she?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 19, 2018)

That misrepresentation/lie just gets repeated all over.

Here is another example...The ideas of Irving and the misrepresentation of Finkelstein is done in the first paragraph so sets him up nicely as a friend of Irving and a holocaust denier.

RonMossad: Norman Finkelstein and the Holocaust Denial/Minimization Industry attacks us all


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 19, 2018)

Rutita1 said:


> That misrepresentation/lie just gets repeated all over.
> 
> Here is another example...The ideas of Irving and the misrepresentation of Finkelstein is done in the first paragraph so sets him up nicely as a friend of Irving and a holocaust denier.
> 
> RonMossad: Norman Finkelstein and the Holocaust Denial/Minimization Industry attacks us all


Shameless, isn't it? Aimed firmly at those who are not familiar with Finkelstein's work or arguments. Anyone who is would find the idea that he's a friend of Irving laughable.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 19, 2018)

It takes a special kind of coward to be that shameless I think.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 19, 2018)

Rutita1 said:


> It takes a special kind of coward to be that shameless I think.


Yep. Shameless and spineless. Unable to counter the actual things he says, you just make shit up and denounce him for that.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 19, 2018)

bimble said:


> What’s a Yiddish name?



Grynsteyn.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 19, 2018)

OK - right she'll be back in a sec with a bit of paper full of names, no not names quotes.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 19, 2018)

Rutita1 said:


> Regarding the non-relationship between Finkelstein and Irving, well I've looked and looked and looked and it keeps coming back to the same thing...Nicely summarised here with transcripts from The Holocaust Industry and one of Freedland's articles in the JC.
> 
> Jonathan Freedland keeps digging—how low will he go? - Norman G. Finkelstein
> 
> Freedland misquoted him?



Freedland not only misquoted him, he entirely misrepresented him. Freedland has form as long as his journalistic career for doing so in order to build a story.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 19, 2018)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Yep. Shameless and spineless. Unable to counter the actual things he says, you just make shit up and denounce him for that.



_a la_ Goebbels. Go for the big lie.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 19, 2018)

ViolentPanda said:


> Freedland not only misquoted him, he entirely misrepresented him. Freedland has form as long as his journalistic career for doing so in order to build a story.



Yeah...I wanted to add misrepresented to that post but someone quoted it before I could.

Interestingly in his JC article he regrets alikening NGF to a nazi but says nothing of basically lying about what he had written. He dresses the lie up in disgust and again repeats it.



> wish I could say I was blameless on this score, but I can't. Sixteen years ago, I was appalled by a short book called The Holocaust Industry by Norman Finkelstein. I wrote that it echoed arguments made by David Irving, who had just lost his notorious libel action and had been branded by the High Court as nothing more than a "pro-Nazi polemicist". Finkelstein's book praised Irving as having made an "indispensable" contribution to our understanding of the last war. In the final line of the piece I wrote that Finkelstein's outlook took "him closer to the people who created the Holocaust than to those who suffered in it."
> 
> I now regret writing that sentence. Finkelstein is a child of Holocaust survivors but even if he were not, I should not have written those words. If I could withdraw them, I would. Implicitly, I had made the comparison - of Jews and Nazis - that I believe should be off-limits.



https://www.thejc.com/comment/columnists/don-t-play-the-nazi-card-1.57727


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 19, 2018)

Rutita1 said:


> Yeah...I wanted to add misrepresented to that post but someone quoted it before I could.
> 
> Interestingly in his JC article he regrets alikening NGF to a nazi but says nothing of basically lying about what he had written. He dresses the lie up in disgust and again repeats it.
> 
> ...



Freedland - perhaps unwittingly, perhaps wittingly - signals his allegiance in the final sentence.  There are not, and shouldn't be, any "sacred cows". There should not be a taboo on comparison of Jews with Nazis, if the actions of Jews warrant it.


----------



## bimble (Feb 19, 2018)

Yes I read the holocaust industry book, it was a requirement as a right-on student, if you were going to go on the Palestine marches which I did along with everyone else. In the intervening years have thought about stuff a bit more and now think that book and the man himself are abysmal.
Please don’t quote me just carry on amongst yourselves because I (honestly) can’t do chat this subject and feel ok it’s the only topic I can’t remain calm on and should never have said anything. It does not, or shouldn’t, matter to me at all what people on this website reckon on this topic.

This is what I’ve got re Fink & Irv’s correspondence.These are form a book called the jewish divide over Israel- accusers & defenders by Bognador & Alexander

It quotes Irving plugging Finkelstein by saying “We have corresponded in past years.. I am sure that many Americans will want to see and hear this brave man”. (p147)

Goes on to say “Finkelstein not only enjoys cordial relations with Hitler apologists such as Irving, but readily grants interviews to the kind of bigot who identifies his work as “a comprehensive picture of the great plot of International Jewery [sic]..a blessing for all holocaust deniers..The book really provides all a professional negationist requires; Jewish plot, Israeli Zionism, greed”.  (148)- the ref link to second one as given in the book no longer works and the first was Irvings twitter.

So the word I read was cordial & I turned it into ‘friendly’, whatever. And if this is untrue it still wouldn’t change what I think of the book because the meaning of a thing is its use iykwim. over & out


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 19, 2018)

lol


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 19, 2018)

Fucking pathetic. Fuck off.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 19, 2018)

Bogdnaor is the same non-reffed person in  the other jewish post article. 

This is circulatory squalid


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 19, 2018)

That's your big list of quotes and refs bimble? That's it?

McCarthy it is.


----------



## CNT36 (Feb 19, 2018)

That's that cleared up then.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 19, 2018)

So nothing from Finkelstein himself then? Basically Irving trolling and bigging himself up and suggesting he has written to Finkelstein then others repeating the same lies as Freedland but it's okay because the meaning of a word is in it's use?



> intemperate
> ɪnˈtɛmp(ə)rət/
> _adjective_
> 
> ...



_Intemperate_...on this thread also being used to mean *dishonest.*


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 19, 2018)

bimble said:


> Yes that's what I was referring to,  the friendly correspondence between Fink and Irving and the popularity of his works on neo-nazi websites, where the full text of the bestseller can be read alongside such classics as The Hoax of the twentieth Century & The International Jew by Ford. . If I feel like getting riled later will come back and post a few of my 'favourite' quotes of his.


Go on...the floor is yours


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 19, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> Bogdnaor is the same non-reffed person in  the other jewish post article.
> 
> This is circulatory squalid


Co-editor of an opus called The Anti-Chomsky Reader, to which he contributed an article explaining why Chomsky hates Israel. He's a fucking clown.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 19, 2018)

Disgusting behaviour bimble. And one written in the post of yours i replied to first thing,


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 19, 2018)

bimble said:


> Yes I read the holocaust industry book, it was a requirement as a right-on student, if you were going to go on the Palestine marches which I did along with everyone else. In the intervening years have thought about stuff a bit more and now think that book and the man himself are abysmal.
> Please don’t quote me just carry on amongst yourselves because I (honestly) can’t do chat this subject and feel ok it’s the only topic I can’t remain calm on and should never have said anything. It does not, or shouldn’t, matter to me at all what people on this website reckon on this topic.
> 
> This is what I’ve got re Fink & Irv’s correspondence.These are form a book called the jewish divide over Israel- accusers & defenders by Bognador & Alexander
> ...


Pisspoor


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 19, 2018)

Classic bimble


----------



## redsquirrel (Feb 20, 2018)

bimble said:


> Please don’t quote me just carry on amongst yourselves because I (honestly) can’t do chat this subject and feel ok it’s the only topic I can’t remain calm on and should never have said anything. It does not, or shouldn’t, matter to me at all what people on this website reckon on this topic.


Utterly pathetic, you make deliberate smear and won't even pretend to defend it. This is the same type of shit you've pulled ever since you started to post on U75.


----------



## Humirax (Feb 22, 2018)

I've gotta say, unless I'm missing something- which I don't think I am, I find it hard to believe that a guy who is not only jewish but whose family suffered and perished (in some cases) in the holocaust has nazi sympathies. I think I'm right in saying that most of his family were murdered by the nazis. I also believe that this fact was a motivation for Finkelstein writing The Holacaust Industry, atleast this is what he claims in his book and he explains that in detail.


----------



## Knotted (Feb 25, 2018)

The NCC on Greenstein here:


OK he's abusive online and there is an undertone of sexism in there but I'm not seeing any evidence of bullying and harassment. Personally I don't have much time for him and he hasn't done himself any favours but all that's beside the point. You've got to have the right to be personal and to shame people. There'll be others who don't meet the criteria of enforced politeness.


----------



## 19force8 (Mar 8, 2018)

And here we go again:

Jeremy Corbyn Was Member Of Facebook Group At Centre Of Anti-Semitism Investigation

I don't have time for this at the moment. Maybe later.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 8, 2018)

The 91 page report

Looks like racist shit like atzmon being shared - and what does look like a skim positive refs to protocols of elders of zion, holocaust deniers like Paul Eisen etc. Need to read it proper to determine if it's being shared within the group when Corbyn and Paul mason (the latter is a member today) etc are members or if it's supporting evidence of members posting this stuff elsewhere. Either way these people sharing this stuff are in this group with high level labour participation.

edit: wow every disgusting anti-semitic trope and conspiracy going appears to be there.


----------



## 19force8 (Mar 8, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> The 91 page report
> 
> edit: wow every disgusting anti-semitic trope and conspiracy going appears to be there.


Yep, there's some real shit there.Thanks for the link.

I've had half an hour to zip through it now and I'm sure the report itself does not justify the attack on Corbyn, Walker et al that follow in the press. In fact the reports conclusions are in themselves quite extraordinary:



> The research draws several important conclusions:
> ➢ Antisemitism is a key motivating factor in anti-Zionist activity and it spreads like a virus within it.
> ➢ The concentration levels of anti-Zionists who share hard-core antisemitic ideologies registered at 64%. With Jewish activists excluded the figure was even higher at 73%.
> ➢ Behind the closed doors of a hidden Facebook Group, major political figures such as Jeremy Corbyn, Jenny Tonge and David Ward engage with hard-core antisemites, even while in public making emphatic denunciations of this racism.
> ...


Which is a pity, because a decent report could have gone a long way to expose the anti-semites that try to attach themselves to the Palestinian cause.


----------



## 19force8 (Mar 8, 2018)

Googled the author (David Collier) on the train home. It seems he has form:

Ofir demolishes David Collier

Again, the pity is there is a case for dealing with the problem of anti-semitites latching onto the PSC, but this fuckwit just serves to label such criticism as pro-zionist propaganda


----------



## 8ball (Mar 9, 2018)

ViolentPanda said:


> Freedland - perhaps unwittingly, perhaps wittingly - signals his allegiance in the final sentence.  There are not, and shouldn't be, any "sacred cows". There should not be a taboo on comparison of Jews with Nazis, if the actions of Jews warrant it.



They'd have to be going some to warrant it, but the principle is sound.


----------



## 19force8 (Mar 9, 2018)

8ball said:


> They'd have to be going some to warrant it, but the principle is sound.


Will this do?

*Palestinian Schoolteacher Mauled by Israeli Military Dog as Soldiers Watch*
Bursting into a schoolteacher’s house in the middle of the night, soldiers sicced their dog on him. The dog bit him and held on, as his family looked on, horrified

Palestinian schoolteacher mauled by Israeli military dog as soldiers watch [edit] Sorry, paywall.

It's copied here by Tony Greenstein:  Tony Greenstein's Blog: Another Nazi  custom - Israel's use of biting dogs against Palestinians


----------



## 8ball (Mar 9, 2018)

19force8 said:


> Will this do?
> 
> *Palestinian Schoolteacher Mauled by Israeli Military Dog as Soldiers Watch*
> Bursting into a schoolteacher’s house in the middle of the night, soldiers sicced their dog on him. The dog bit him and held on, as his family looked on, horrified
> ...



Conflating Jews generally with the Israeli Government?


----------



## 19force8 (Mar 9, 2018)

8ball said:


> Conflating Jews generally with the Israeli Government?


I've edited my reply to this disingenuous shit three times now. I really should calm down.


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 9, 2018)

19force8 said:


> And here we go again:
> 
> Jeremy Corbyn Was Member Of Facebook Group At Centre Of Anti-Semitism Investigation
> 
> I don't have time for this at the moment. Maybe later.


Surely Corbyn doesn't manage his own facebook a/c, though?

And yes, the pro-Israel are probably trying to cynically exploit this one, and others like it - but it should never have been allowed to get this far. There should have been far greater, visceral intolerance for anything that even smelt slightly of anti-semitism, and this wouldn't be happening now.


----------



## rekil (Mar 9, 2018)

He doesn't say which 21st century wire people are members of the group. Beeley I assume.


----------



## agricola (Mar 11, 2018)

Idris2002 said:


> Surely Corbyn doesn't manage his own facebook a/c, though?
> 
> And yes, the pro-Israel are probably trying to cynically exploit this one, and others like it - but it should never have been allowed to get this far. There should have been far greater, visceral intolerance for anything that even smelt slightly of anti-semitism, and this wouldn't be happening now.



I disagree - this was always going to happen as long as Corbyn was in charge.  Even a complete renunciation of and apology for his previous views on Palestine, and a purge of anyone who held views that matched whatever the definition of anti-semitic behaviour that would satisfy the likes of Collier and Phillipps was, wouldn't have satisfied them - they only want him out.  Just take a look at some of the stuff the people who speak for LabourAgainstAS are putting out on twitter to see the truth of that.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Mar 11, 2018)

agricola said:


> I disagree - this was always going to happen as long as Corbyn was in charge.  Even a complete renunciation of and apology for his previous views on Palestine, and a purge of anyone who held views that matched whatever the definition of anti-semitic behaviour that would satisfy the likes of Collier and Phillipps was, wouldn't have satisfied them - they only want him out.  Just take a look at some of the stuff the people who speak for LabourAgainstAS are putting out on twitter to see the truth of that.


I agree that the motivations for the attacks are absolutely nothing to do with opposing antisemitism, and that there would still be attacks regardless of what UK Labour did, but a hardcore opposition to any hint of it internally would made it harder.

More importantly it would just be the right thing to do. I'm much less concerned about press attacks on Corbyn than antisemitic poisoning of discussion of middle eastern politics, capitalism, the media and all the other places where it continues to pop up and be handwaved at. I was reading defences of Farrakhan's anti-semitism today ffs - not on the basis of "this is an issue being exploited to attack the civil rights movement and we shouldn't play to their tune" or even "okay that was bad but look at all the inspiring other things he says" but "oh well it's complicated" or "but who are the real semites?".


----------



## 19force8 (Mar 11, 2018)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I agree that the motivations for the attacks are absolutely nothing to do with opposing antisemitism, and that there would still be attacks regardless of what UK Labour did, but a hardcore opposition to any hint of it internally would made it harder.


I'm not sure that's right.

In recent years I've seen virtually no evidence for committed anti-semitism in the Labour Party or on the UK left generally. As in any movement made up of every level from experienced hacks to naive newcomers there are some careless or thoughtless ideas/talk knocking around, but the way to deal with that is through argument, discussion and education, not "zero tolerance," suspensions and expulsions.

How would you define this "hint" of anti-semitism?

I'm pretty sure the author of the report sees any criticism of Israel or of Zionism as full on, sieg-heilling anti-semitism. You won't satisfy them without purging all such criticism, and perhaps not even then.

When that's done some people will look at the actions of Israel and say "if it's anti-semitic to oppose oppression then I must be anti-semitic." In that way good people are thrown into the arms of the conspiraloons.

The best way to deal with this is campaign resolutely against both Zionism and anti-semitism within the Labour Party, and show in practice that one isn't the opposite of the other.


----------



## Pwerus (Mar 17, 2018)

19force8 said:


> I'm not sure that's right.
> 
> When that's done some people will look at the actions of Israel and say "if it's anti-semitic to oppose oppression then I must be anti-semitic." In that way good people are thrown into the arms of the conspiraloons.
> 
> The best way to deal with this is campaign resolutely against both Zionism and anti-semitism within the Labour Party, and show in practice that one isn't the opposite of the other.


So much this. We've seen it with the government in the past few years, all the big social media networks - censoring possibly controversial opinions doesn't make them go away - it just pushes people to extremes. People should be free to criticize the Israeli government without this aggressive label.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 19, 2018)

19force8 said:


> I'm not sure that's right.
> 
> In recent years I've seen virtually no evidence for committed anti-semitism in the Labour Party or on the UK left generally. As in any movement made up of every level from experienced hacks to naive newcomers there are some careless or thoughtless ideas/talk knocking around, but the way to deal with that is through argument, discussion and education, not "zero tolerance," suspensions and expulsions.
> 
> ...





Pwerus said:


> So much this. We've seen it with the government in the past few years, all the big social media networks - censoring possibly controversial opinions doesn't make them go away - it just pushes people to extremes. People should be free to criticize the Israeli government without this aggressive label.



Would either of you describe the labour party response as doing what you both suggest?

I think using the quite transparent motives of the author to just ignore the hardcore committed ideological anti-semitism deep within key labour linked people posted in the report is to both ignore it and prepare the ground for a defence of it on free speech grounds or content, It stinks. The longer left wingers just pretend that anti-semitism = anti-zionism (in that specific order) the longer this goes on.


----------



## 19force8 (Mar 19, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> Would either of you describe the labour party response as doing what you both suggest?


Of course not, it's a position to argue for. Nothing more.



butchersapron said:


> I think using the quite transparent motives of the author to just ignore the hardcore committed ideological anti-semitism deep within key labour linked people posted in the report is to both ignore it and prepare the ground for a defence of it on free speech grounds or content, It stinks. The longer left wingers just pretend that anti-semitism = anti-zionism (in that specific order) the longer this goes on.


Do "left wingers just pretend anti-semitism = anti-zionism?"

Maybe you could say who exactly. Are they the same people as the mysterious "key labour linked people" with their "hardcore committed ideological anti-semitism?"


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 19, 2018)

19force8 said:


> Of course not, it's a position to argue for. Nothing more.
> 
> 
> Do "left wingers just pretend anti-semitism = anti-zionism?"
> ...


Look at the order in which i posted "anti-semitism = anti-zionism" rather the the reverse.

And yes, plenty of them do - a whole host in the thing that we're talking about. Before you waste both of our time in suggesting that i'm positing anti-semitism as left wing trait you could look at those left-wingers, those momentum people those eddy and rita from Bristol - pictured with corbyn, central to bristol momentum, central to bristol palestine museum/embassy  - as openly holocaust denial as you could get.

There is no hope of this though because - it's just anti-corbyn to you. You literally, like them, will walk that away.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 19, 2018)

I'll add that i don't think that you have any idea of how modern anti-semitism works and is working and so a generic pledge to oppose both zionism and anti-semtism is like a pledge to fight jim crow.


----------



## Pwerus (Mar 19, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> Would either of you describe the labour party response as doing what you both suggest?
> 
> I think using the quite transparent motives of the author to just ignore the hardcore committed ideological anti-semitism deep within key labour linked people posted in the report is to both ignore it and prepare the ground for a defence of it on free speech grounds or content, It stinks. The longer left wingers just pretend that anti-semitism = anti-zionism (in that specific order) the longer this goes on.



I'm not really defending or attacking Labour on this one. This is an isolated incident in a broader debate, that will probably never be settled.
I'm concerned about the erosion of people's freedom to criticize Israel and its government without an easy label like "anti-Semitism" being thrown at them.
You seem to be concerned about the opposite issue - people defending genuine anti-Semitism under the guise of free speech. I respect your opinion and all, but look at it this way: this is a controversial topic that many people have very strong feelings about. Jeremy Corbyn has been gathering a reputation for being good at criticizing the tories, but struggling to come up with his own alternative or make difficult decisions. It seems pretty in-character for Labour to keep quiet and try to wait this issue out.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 19, 2018)

Pwerus said:


> I'm not really defending or attacking Labour on this one. This is an isolated incident in a broader debate, that will probably never be settled.
> I'm concerned about the erosion of people's freedom to criticize Israel and its government without an easy label like "anti-Semitism" being thrown at them.
> You seem to be concerned about the opposite issue - people defending genuine anti-Semitism under the guise of free speech. I respect your opinion and all, but look at it this way: this is a controversial topic that many people have very strong feelings about. Jeremy Corbyn has been gathering a reputation for being good at criticizing the tories, but struggling to come up with his own alternative or make difficult decisions. It seems pretty in-character for Labour to keep quiet and try to wait this issue out.


It's not an isolated incident. It's the latest in a long running series of incidents. So many that they may be called a tendency or something.

Kicking anti-semites out of labour  and arguing why anti-semitism is wrong is not not about free-speech. Its about a) a membership group and b) racism.

Free speech is neither here nor there on either of these issues. Nor is racism in any way controversial. Is it in your particular labour branch?


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 19, 2018)

When we've reached the stage that calling out anti-semitism should be 'questioned' because it might hurt corbyn then we're already too far. Fuck that shit.


----------



## Pwerus (Mar 19, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> It's not an isolated incident. It's the latest in a long running series of incidents. So many that they may be called a tendency or something.
> 
> Kicking anti-semites out of labour  and arguing why anti-semitism is wrong is not not about free-speech. Its about a) a membership group and b) racism.
> 
> Free speech is neither here nor there on either of these issues. Nor is racism in any way controversial. Is it in your particular labour branch?



I've found articles from 2016 or so on the issue, but I mostly see a lot of arguments about the same one or two issues, so whatever.

As for racism - even that's debatable. Do you consider the Jews a race or a religion? Do you consider criticism of Israel and its government to be anti-Semitic? Is criticism of the Israeli government criticism of the entire Jewish race and religion? Is criticism of Judaism as a religion racist, or just as protected by free speech laws as criticism of Christianity, and organised religion in general? Hate speech only applies to what people say if they are actively condoning violence against certain groups. In the example of Naz Shah, she was certainly anti-Semitic, but she never condoned violence or aggression against Jews. Where do you draw the line there? Where does the government draw the line? Where does the media draw the line? Where does anyone draw the line? This is the kind of vagueness I'm concerned about.

Here is an on-topic comment from MP Ken Livingstone, on the difference between criticising Israel and Judaism itself, who was later also accused of anti-Semitism: "“I think blurring these two things undermines the importance of antisemitism because a real antisemite doesn't just hate the Jews in Israel, they hate their Jewish neighbours in Golders Green or Stoke Newington, it’s a physical loathing."

As for your "Its about a) membership group and b) racism" comment, that's a good point - you don't have to break any laws to be kicked out of a political group or company trying to save face, and similarly, low-key Jeremy Clarkson/Polandball-tier racist jokes to friends outside the workplace don't immediately get you fired either. It's just a matter of what blows up on the media enough to damage the party or company's reputation, where it should fall to the mainstream media to be responsible on whose career they do or don't ruin. Is that right? Is that wrong? I don't know, but for now, I don't think the mainstream media are very responsible on that issue, which is where my concerns come from.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 19, 2018)

Pwerus said:


> I've found articles from 2016 or so on the issue, but I mostly see a lot of arguments about the same one or two issues, so whatever.
> 
> As for racism - even that's debatable. Do you consider the Jews a race or a religion? Do you consider criticism of Israel and its government to be anti-Semitic? Is criticism of the Israeli government criticism of the entire Jewish race and religion? Is criticism of Judaism as a religion racist, or just as protected by free speech laws as criticism of Christianity, and organised religion in general? Hate speech only applies to what people say if they are actively condoning violence against certain groups. In the example of Naz Shah, she was certainly anti-Semitic, but she never condoned violence or aggression against Jews. Where do you draw the line there? Where does the government draw the line? Where does the media draw the line? Where does anyone draw the line? This is the kind of vagueness I'm concerned about.
> 
> ...


You can only find examples of anti-semitism, or claims thereof - from 2016? What search engine you using?

Yes. Anti-semitism is racism.

I don't think that your banal trotting out of the defences of anti-semitism that hide under anti-zionism (there are many other left wing ways in which to do this) add up to anything but the defence of just that.


----------



## Pwerus (Mar 19, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> You can only find examples of anti-semitism, or claims thereof - from 2016? What search engine you using?
> 
> Yes. Anti-semitism is racism.
> 
> I don't think that your banal trotting out of the defences of anti-semitism that hide under anti-zionism (there are many other left wing ways in which to do this) add up to anything but the defence of just that.



I see that I can't call out a government that's blatantly lied to the world on its ownership of chemical weapons, as well as broken the Geneva Convention, without people thinking I'm defending anti-Semitism.

Well, sometimes to do some good you've got to be the bad guy, so to speak. I'm expressing my concern over vagueness from the government, the media, and people who are too trigger-happy with words like "anti-Semite" and "racist" and this discussion hasn't exactly convinced me that there aren't obvious communication problems on this matter. However, I respect your opinion on the matter.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 19, 2018)

Pwerus said:


> I see that I can't call out a government that's blatantly lied to the world on its ownership of chemical weapons, as well as broken the Geneva Convention, without people thinking I'm defending anti-Semitism.
> 
> Well, sometimes to do some good you've got to be the bad guy, so to speak. I'm expressing my concern over vagueness from the government, the media, and people who are too trigger-happy with words like "anti-Semite" and "racist" and this discussion hasn't exactly convinced me that there aren't obvious communication problems on this matter. However, I respect your opinion on the matter.


twat


----------



## Sweet FA (Mar 19, 2018)

_"Racist" is an increasingly vague and subjective term that some people like to use against the likes of UKIP and the Tories."



_


----------



## Pwerus (Mar 19, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> twat


----------



## 19force8 (Mar 19, 2018)

So you refered to





butchersapron said:


> key labour linked people posted in the report


When I asked you to say who you said





butchersapron said:


> those momentum people those eddy and rita from Bristol - pictured with corbyn, central to bristol momentum, central to bristol palestine museum/embassy - as openly holocaust denial as you could get.


Given your description I'm sure these are thoroughly anti-semitic people, but they weren't mentioned in the report were they? Nor, incidentally, was Bristol. So how am I supposed to know of them?


butchersapron said:


> Look at the order in which i posted "anti-semitism = anti-zionism" rather the the reverse.


Look at the order in which I quoted you saying "anti-semitism = anti-zionism" you pompous prat.


butchersapron said:


> There is no hope of this though because - it's just anti-corbyn to you. You literally, like them, will walk that away.


And fuck you too.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 19, 2018)

19force8 said:


> So you refered to
> When I asked you to say who you said
> Given your description I'm sure these are thoroughly anti-semitic people, but they weren't mentioned in the report were they? Nor, incidentally, was Bristol. So how am I supposed to know of them?
> 
> ...


They were either in that report or the author's previous - they are about the exact same people.

And? 

Nothing to see here. Nothing.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 19, 2018)

Pages and pages of labour party members sharing utterly disgusting racist stuff but  you know...corbyn


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 19, 2018)

Is there any possible way labour could tighten up on anti-semitism. Do you know what, i think they could - and further, crazy as it sounds  - they should.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 19, 2018)

Anti-semitism  has slid into left culture in a way i thought impossible 10 years ago.


----------



## 19force8 (Mar 19, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> They were either in that report or the author's previous - they are about the exact same people.


So which is it? The report we're talking about or some previous report which you've never mentioned?


butchersapron said:


> Is there any possible way labour could tighten up on anti-semitism. Do you know what, i think they could - and further, crazy as it sounds - they should.


Glad to hear you're getting on board. Even gladder to know you'll not be doing so anywhere near me.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 19, 2018)

19force8 said:


> So which is it? The report we're talking about or some previous report which you've never mentioned?
> 
> Glad to hear you're getting on board. Even gladder to know you'll not be doing so anywhere near me.


The previous one that the latter one built on.

Likewise - but for diff reasons. Mine: don't like anti-semites and their justifiers. Yours: don't like corbyn and keep quiet about the racists and their racism.


----------



## 19force8 (Mar 19, 2018)

When did I justify anti-semitism?


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 19, 2018)

19force8 said:


> When did I justify anti-semitism?


What did i say?


----------



## 19force8 (Mar 19, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> What did i say?


What did you say?


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 19, 2018)

19force8 said:


> What did you say?


Bottler


----------



## 19force8 (Mar 19, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> Bottler


Pissant


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 19, 2018)

Join the swp


----------



## 19force8 (Mar 19, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> Join the swp


Oh I'm so hurt.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 19, 2018)

Yeah, was shit, but not as shit as your argument that anti-racism is bad for corbs. Be quiet.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 19, 2018)

19force8 said:


> Oh I'm so hurt.


Your argument appears to to be that you're not anti-semitic and the last time time you checked this was still true and because you know the eternal never changing diff between the anti-zionism and ant-semitism that you are in the clear. Things have changed.


----------



## 19force8 (Mar 19, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> Yeah, was shit, but not as shit as your argument that anti-racism is bad for corbs. Be quiet.


You'd be right if I'd ever made that argument, but since I haven't that's shit too.


----------



## 19force8 (Mar 19, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> Your argument appears to to be that you're not anti-semitic and the last time time you checked this was still true and because you know the eternal never changing diff between the anti-zionism and ant-semitism that you are in the clear. Things have changed.


So many things I know. It's good to be reminded from time to time.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 19, 2018)

19force8 said:


> You'd be right if I'd ever made that argument, but since I haven't that's shit too.


It's pretty clear this is your response to this latest anti-corbyn report.


----------



## 19force8 (Mar 19, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> It's pretty clear this is your response to this latest anti-corbyn report.


If you say so it must be.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 19, 2018)

Weird how it works for the  FLA closed group and this closed group.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Apr 17, 2018)

Powerful speeches today, Corbyn absent.


----------



## killer b (Apr 17, 2018)

He wasn't absent, he just didn't stay for the whole thing.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Apr 18, 2018)

killer b said:


> He wasn't absent, he just didn't stay for the whole thing.


That's ok then.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 18, 2018)

killer b said:


> He wasn't absent, he just didn't stay for the whole thing.


yeh he was absent for the bits when he wasn't there


----------



## killer b (Apr 18, 2018)

sleaterkinney said:


> That's ok then.


Not sure about that. He just wasn't absent, like you posted.


----------



## Mr Moose (Apr 18, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh he was absent for the bits when he wasn't there



He might have been a bit absent when he was there. He’s getting on a bit and it’s not an issue that always seems to grab his attention.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 18, 2018)

Mr Moose said:


> He might have been a bit absent when he was there. He’s getting on a bit and it’s not an issue that always seems to grab his attention.


yeh well when it's been talked about and talked about and talked about i suppose the novelty it initially had wears off


----------



## Mr Moose (Apr 18, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh well when it's been talked about and talked about and talked about i suppose the novelty it initially had wears off



I’m not sure it had much initial novelty for him, that's the problem. Now he is playing catch up.


----------



## Shechemite (Apr 24, 2018)

Is that what happened today? The BoD/JLC tried to ‘dictate to Corbyn that he can only talk to ‘mainstream’ Jewish groups’?

Or just more thick as pig shit ‘anti-Zionism’?


----------



## killer b (Apr 24, 2018)

I forget the wording and can't find the letter right now, but pretty much. certainly that he must engage with mainstream groups when forming his response instead of taking his lead from leftwing antizionist jewish groups.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Apr 24, 2018)

Everything under heaven is in utter chaos; the situation is excellent - as mao apparently said


----------



## rekil (Apr 24, 2018)

'My centre is giving way, my right is retreating, my left is crawling with conspiraloons, situation excellent, I am attacking.'


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 26, 2018)

Street fighting man Len M wades into the row. Again, the undoubted and shameless, politicking of the Blairites is the focus and used to deflect away from the political degeneracy:

The Corbyn ultimatum


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 26, 2018)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Street fighting man Len M wades into the row. Again, the undoubted and shameless, politicking of the Blairites is the focus and used to deflect away from the political degeneracy:
> 
> The Corbyn ultimatum


The wreckers


----------



## killer b (Apr 26, 2018)

Got to wonder what mclusky is trying to achieve with that. Comical that he talks of other people 'undermining' Corbyn while kicking his feet out from under him himself...


----------



## bemused (Apr 26, 2018)

killer b said:


> Got to wonder what mclusky is trying to achieve with that. Comical that he talks of other people 'undermining' Corbyn while kicking his feet out from under him himself...



He's also talking about mandatory reselection, Corbyn has been a dissenter of this party's leadership for years - it is part of his charm. Any move to remove MPs who don't agree with this leadership isn't going to look good, imagine what Len would have said if previous leaders had tried to deselect Corbyn?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 26, 2018)

bemused said:


> He's also talking about mandatory reselection, Corbyn has been a dissenter of this party's leadership for years - it is part of his charm. Any move to remove MPs who don't agree with this leadership isn't going to look good, imagine what Len would have said if previous leaders had tried to deselect Corbyn?


It's the local party who deselect not the leadership.

And this has nothing to do with the thread.


----------



## killer b (Apr 26, 2018)

Oh, I'm all for that.


----------



## bemused (Apr 26, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> And this has nothing to do with the thread.



I'm discussing an article quoted in this thread - it's part of this thread.


----------



## Mr Moose (Apr 26, 2018)

killer b said:


> Got to wonder what mclusky is trying to achieve with that. Comical that he talks of other people 'undermining' Corbyn while kicking his feet out from under him himself...



He is too close to Corbyn for it not to be seen as one of Corbyn’s own contradictory messages.

In many ways it’s a fine article, other than the total balls up he makes when he says of opposing anti-Semitism ‘I need no lectures from anyone else on the subject’. Leaving aside the daft machismo (how long ago Len?) that’s exactly the attitude that got us here. I’m not listening coz I’m so right on.

Imagine saying to Black people about racism as a white person ‘I need no lectures’.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 26, 2018)

Mr Moose said:


> Imagine saying to Black people about racism as a white person ‘I need no lectures’.



Exactly. I was half expecting him to go with 'some of my best mates are Jewish'. 

He takes the view, correctly, that far right anti semities need to be kicked off the streets. But on the left prescribes a programme of education and more cult of personality stuff around Corbyn. And in doing so exposes the, increasingly less submerged, political degeneration.


----------



## The Flying Pig (Apr 26, 2018)

I think these whingeing Labour mp's should be asked their opinion on a two party state solution for Israel and Palestine, their thoughts on the war crimes committed by the apartheid Israeli government are they in the pay of the Israeli state or take free trips to Israel and finally ask their views on what is the capital of Israel? I am 100% certain their answers will tell us all their motive for deciding on attacking Corbyn.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 26, 2018)

NEE-NAAH_NEE-NAAH anarchists for labour police - weeks late. 

The key question  for labour in the coming period, is, of course, Palestine.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 26, 2018)

_NEE-NAAH-NEE-NAAH anarchists for labour police - can you show us your papers - like right now._


----------



## The Flying Pig (Apr 26, 2018)

Best just deselect these conspirators asap


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 26, 2018)

The Flying Pig said:


> Best just deselect these conspirators asap


What steps are you taking towards this end - as the second in command of the anarchist labour party police?


----------



## killer b (Apr 26, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> weeks late.


I think this is what's baffled me about Mclusky's article in the Statesman - why now? The conversation has moved on.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 26, 2018)

killer b said:


> I think this is what's baffled me about Mclusky's article in the Statesman - why now? The conversation has moved on.


This is just how slow ponderous beasts on 150 grand a year shouting about "reactionary elements" like it's the 30s roll.


----------



## The Flying Pig (Apr 26, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> What steps are you taking towards this end - as the second in command of the anarchist labour party police?


Best leave it to local Labour activists to resolve.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 26, 2018)

The Flying Pig said:


> Best leave it to local Labour activists to resolve.


Oh right? The one's where holocaust denial is fine? I thought that you anarchists for labour would have stamped that out. Or is your oddessy  only beginning


----------



## bemused (Apr 26, 2018)

killer b said:


> I think this is what's baffled me about Mclusky's article in the Statesman - why now? The conversation has moved on.



Given in a few weeks he'd be able to trumpet a Labour success in the locals and how the MPs he doesn't like are on the wrong side of the argument - it seems shit timing.


----------



## Old Spark (Apr 26, 2018)

bemused said:


> Given in a few weeks he'd be able to trumpet a Labour success in the locals and how the MPs he doesn't like are on the wrong side of the argument - it seems shit timing.



Maybe rallying the united left in unite in the event of a general secretary rerun ?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 26, 2018)

killer b said:


> I think this is what's baffled me about Mclusky's article in the Statesman - why now? The conversation has moved on.



Formby is GS. This is the endorsement of her plan by the tops, which is also owned by the tops.

A political education programme, a top down ‘implementation’ of the Shami Chakrabarti report, a plan to help members identify grotesque racism (in case they missed it) and more importantly a message that the dead end politics of labour won’t be deflected by concerns about those around it


----------



## agricola (Apr 27, 2018)

Wadsworth expelled.

_"Of course, this was the Party itself rather than Corbyn"_ will be along shortly.


----------



## teqniq (Apr 27, 2018)

So does anyone here consider him guilty as charged or is it a stitch-up as some people on Twitter are speculating. Genuinely interested here btw as I'm not going to pretend to know the right or wrong of this.


----------



## killer b (Apr 27, 2018)

Fuck knows. Expect it'll go to law though, so they'd be mad not to have it watertight.


----------



## Mr Moose (Apr 27, 2018)

teqniq said:


> So does anyone here consider him guilty as charged or is it a stitch-up as some people on Twitter are speculating. Genuinely interested here btw as I'm not going to pretend to know the right or wrong of this.



I don’t know the full facts so can’t say whether expulsion was the only option, but it appeared wrong to me to attempt to derail an important event with a load of ‘what about something else’.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Apr 27, 2018)

It wasn't anti-Semitism but bringing the party into disrepute.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 27, 2018)

sleaterkinney said:


> It wasn't anti-Semitism but bringing the party into disrepute.



I.e bullying anti-semitism. I think everyone understood what he is accused of.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 27, 2018)

sleaterkinney said:


> It wasn't anti-Semitism but bringing the party into disrepute.


It's being very heavily (if maybe deniably) headlined as being for anti-semitism though. e.g. Labour activist Marc Wadsworth expelled from party over antisemitism row


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 27, 2018)

FridgeMagnet said:


> It's being very heavily (if maybe deniably) headlined as being for anti-semitism though. e.g. Labour activist Marc Wadsworth expelled from party over antisemitism row


His own defence was that he didn't realise that Ruth Smeeth was Jewish. So he himself places it within the anti-semitism _thing_.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 27, 2018)

And was it the gerry 'support ISIS as they are against Israel' wing of Labour against the witchhunt or tony 'there is nothing anti-semitic about this mural' greenstein that turned up to support him?


----------



## belboid (Apr 27, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> His own defence was that he didn't realise that Ruth Smeeth was Jewish. So he himself places it within the anti-semitism _thing_.


Smeeth claimed it was anti-semitic, and the cabal of right-wing MP's supported her. It really is one of the daftest cases, he slagged her off (at the launch of the Chakrabarti report) for 'working hand in hand' with the Telegraph. Which is far enough really. Another one of those 'not the most tactful thing in the world to do, but not anti-semitic' events


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 27, 2018)

belboid said:


> Smeeth claimed it was anti-semitic, and the cabal of right-wing MP's supported her. It really is one of the daftest cases, he slagged her off (at the launch of the Chakrabarti report) for 'working hand in hand' with the Telegraph. Which is far enough really. Another one of those 'not the most tactful thing in the world to do, but not anti-semitic' events


Oh i know what happened - or at least what was filmed and posted on here at the time. I was making clear that he too saw his actions and defended himself within the rubric of anti-semitism in the labour party. The idea that certain actions are ok if you are unaware that someone is jewish is more than reprehensible. It's racist.


----------



## GarveyLives (Apr 28, 2018)

Can anyone clarify exactly what Mr Wadsworth said or did that led to his expulsion?

Thank you.

​


----------



## pseudonarcissus (Apr 28, 2018)

teqniq said:


> So does anyone here consider him guilty as charged or is it a stitch-up as some people on Twitter are speculating. Genuinely interested here btw as I'm not going to pretend to know the right or wrong of this.


It’s largely guilt by association, shared platforms and the like...then not dumping Ken when he stupidly courted the limelight rather than engaging his brain, then being seen to do too little. It’s a nightmare, if you think you can comment on the Middle East/Israel/Zionism/jewdism in the character limit on Twitter, perhaps you shouldn’t be in politics. It stinks. He may not be the cause of the smell bit he’s been tainted.


----------



## ska invita (Apr 28, 2018)

David Rosenburg stood in his defense... His account of what happened:


----------



## likesfish (Apr 28, 2018)

tbf if Corbyn popped up on the Gaza border in IDF uniform and shot some kids they'd be complaining he hadn't shot enough or only wounded a few .


----------



## Libertad (Apr 28, 2018)

belboid said:


> Smeeth claimed it was anti-semitic, and the cabal of right-wing MP's supported her. It really is one of the daftest cases, he slagged her off (at the launch of the Chakrabarti report) for 'working hand in hand' with the Telegraph. Which is far enough really. Another one of those 'not the most tactful thing in the world to do, but not anti-semitic' events



"Cabal". Nice line in anti-semitic tropes you've got there.


----------



## brixtonscot (Apr 28, 2018)

GarveyLives said:


> Can anyone clarify exactly what Mr Wadsworth said or did that led to his expulsion?
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> ​



From what I understand and what Marc Wandsworth says in this video.......MW said he saw Ruth Smeeth exchanging a document with journalist from Telegraph , which led him to say RS was "working hand in hand" with Telegraph journalist. MW also says he was unaware at the time that RS was Jewish


----------



## brixtonscot (Apr 28, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> The idea that certain actions are ok if you are unaware that someone is jewish is more than reprehensible. It's racist.



Is it racist to say that right wing labour MP's are working hand in hand with right wing journalists ?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 28, 2018)

brixtonscot said:


> Is it racist to say that right wing labour MP's are working hand in hand with right wing journalists ?


Of course not. What's that got to do with this idiots actions though?


----------



## brixtonscot (Apr 28, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> Of course not. What's that got to do with this idiots actions though?


I thought that was basis of accusation against MW , that he said RS was working hand in hand with Telegraph journalist. 
If I'm mistaken , what was case against MW ?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 28, 2018)

That his actions brought the party into disrepute. 

Ffs he went to the unveiling of a report on internal  labour party antisemitism with the intention of disrupting it.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 28, 2018)

brixtonscot said:


> Is it racist to say that right wing labour MP's are working hand in hand with right wing journalists ?


Shall i take this as agreement or dissent on the idea that_ i wouldn't say it openly if i knew they were jewish _is racist then btw?


----------



## newbie (Apr 28, 2018)

ska invita said:


> David Rosenburg stood in his defense... His account of what happened:




that's quite a strong and fairly clear statement, well worth reading.  If there are equally clear descriptions of what happened from other viewpoints I'd be interested in reading them.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 28, 2018)

I wonder why he was even at this PR event. Just _interested _in anti-semitism suppose.


----------



## cantsin (Apr 28, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> That his actions brought the party into disrepute.
> 
> Ffs he went to the unveiling of a report on internal  labour party antisemitism with the intention of disrupting it.



Rosenbergs' statement carefully relays the actual details of what happened, but you choose to side with Smeeth,  Sodexho / BICOM PR exec turned staunch  Blairite at best, an Israeli State assett (according to Wikileaks ) at worst....where are you going with all this ? is yr 'enemies enemy becoming your friend ? are you f*cking sure ?


----------



## cantsin (Apr 28, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> I wonder why he was even at this PR event. Just _interested _in anti-semitism suppose.



you're asking why someone who's been campaigning vs racism for most of his adult life was at an anti racism event ?


----------



## killer b (Apr 28, 2018)

I think it's totally possible to be against blairite carpetbaggers _and_ divs who've been fucking over their own party because they can't accept they should shut the fuck up once in a while.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 28, 2018)

cantsin said:


> you're asking why someone who's been campaigning vs racism for most of his adult life was at an anti racism event ?


I'm asking why he chose to attend an event unveiling a report on anti-semitism in the labour party yes. I think he was there to suggest that it doesn't exist and to undermine those who claim that it does.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 28, 2018)

cantsin said:


> Rosenbergs' statement carefully relays the actual details of what happened, but you choose to side with Smeeth,  Sodexho / BICOM PR exec turned staunch  Blairite at best, an Israeli State assett (according to Wikileaks ) at worst....where are you going with all this ? is yr 'enemies enemy becoming your friend ? are you f*cking sure ?


Yes. I'm sure. You?


----------



## cantsin (Apr 28, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> Yes. I'm sure. You?



give us more BA, we deserve / demand it.... Smeeth ? c'mon....


----------



## cantsin (Apr 28, 2018)

killer b said:


> I think it's totally possible to be against blairite carpetbaggers _and_ divs who've been fucking over their own party because they can't accept they should shut the fuck up once in a while.



would never pretend MW's intervention was a good idea, by any stretch, and like Ken, shutting the feck up every now and again would help us all...just not buying the idea he went there to disrupt it , or is in any way an anti semite ( especially so after reading Rosenbergs piece)


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 28, 2018)

I couldn't care less about Smeeth. In  what way is pointing out idiocy a defence of her and her views?


----------



## killer b (Apr 28, 2018)

cantsin said:


> would never pretend MW's intervention was a good idea, by any stretch, and like Ken, shutting the feck up every now and again would help us all...just not buying the idea he went there to disrupt it , or is in any way an anti semite ( especially so after reading Rosenbergs piece)


Well he didn't shut up, so he can fuck off.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 28, 2018)

cantsin said:


> would never pretend MW's intervention was a good idea, by any stretch, and like Ken, shutting the feck up would help us all...


But you are - you're defending what was a planned undermining of an anti-racist report on the basis that MW calls himself an anti-racist. He wasn't there to support it was he? You - and most of the labour people i've seen offering this defence - should be so much better than this.


----------



## cantsin (Apr 28, 2018)

killer b said:


> Well he didn't shut up, so he can fuck off.



so deserves to get expelled from the party for an ill advised intervention, thanks largely to a co ordinated pile on from the same old cynical bastards ?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 28, 2018)

Once you're _defending people's right to be in the labour party_ it's all over isn't it? Might as well just knuckle down to the long fight against the internal enemies. Do some motions and resolutions and that.

I think it's hilarious that wadsworth (last seen assaulting livingstone) defenders have to rely on livingstone defenders to back him up. This whole thing would have been an opp before -and not one to defend any side. #Creeping_corbynism.


----------



## lazythursday (Apr 28, 2018)

cantsin said:


> so deserves to get expelled from the party for an ill advised intervention, thanks largely to a co ordinated pile on from the same old cynical bastards ?


Well whether he intended it or not he sure did bring the party into disrepute and torpedoed any chance of the Chakrabarti report being a success. But surely anyway it's not about what he deserves, it's about what's strategically best for the Labour Party in the run up to the local elections. If he'd have been judged innocent all hell would have broken loose.


----------



## cantsin (Apr 28, 2018)

lazythursday said:


> Well whether he intended it or not he sure did bring the party into disrepute and torpedoed any chance of the Chakrabarti report being a success. But surely anyway it's not about what he deserves, it's about what's strategically best for the Labour Party in the run up to the local elections. If he'd have been judged innocent all hell would have broken loose.



agree 100 %, there was almost no other option pre locals - not sure it takes total tin foil hattery to be a bit suspicious about timing here


----------



## killer b (Apr 28, 2018)

cantsin said:


> so deserves to get expelled from the party for an ill advised intervention, thanks largely to a co ordinated pile on from the same old cynical bastards ?


Deserved or not, that's what's happened. Maybe all the other loudmouth pricks will shut the fuck up now too. If not they can go and stand outside shouting with Greenstein & Walker.


----------



## cantsin (Apr 28, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> Once you're _defending people's right to be in the labour party_ it's all over isn't it? Might as well just knuckle down to the long fight against the internal enemies. Do some motions and resolutions and that.
> 
> I think it's hilarious that wadsworth (last seen assaulting livingstone) defenders have to rely on livingstone defenders to back him up. This whole thing would have been an opp before -and not one to defend any side. #Creeping_corbynism.



( as so soften with yr stuff, going to have to return to this / not avoiding, trying to do other stuff at same time etc)


----------



## cantsin (Apr 28, 2018)

killer b said:


> Deserved or not, that's what's happened. Maybe all the other loudmouth pricks will shut the fuck up now too. If not they can go and stand outside shouting with Greenstein & Walker.



am tempted to turn up to the next time Greenstein is protesting with that Momentum banner and take the fecking thing off him


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 28, 2018)

cantsin said:


> ( as so soften with yr stuff, going to have to return to this / not avoiding, trying to do other stuff at same time etc)


That's ok - busy myself and, to be honest, not in the mood for it tonight.


----------



## GarveyLives (Apr 29, 2018)

ska invita said:


> David Rosenburg stood in his defense... His account of what happened:



Thank you for sharing this account.


----------



## likesfish (Apr 29, 2018)

Frankly anyone who is more  than a minion for Sodexo should be barred from the Labour Party on principle that labour excludes evil


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 29, 2018)

likesfish said:


> Frankly anyone who is more  than a minion for Sodexo should be barred from the Labour Party on principle that labour excludes evil


they let tony blair in, though, didn't they?


----------



## 19force8 (Apr 29, 2018)

This is an interesting account of shenanigans in the early 90's involving Wadsworth, Livingstone, Socialist Action et al

Some Political Background on Mark Wadsworth.

I've got to say I don't remember the sectarian stuff, virtually no internet in those days and I was a bit isolated in South London. Actually, the 90's as a whole are vague.


----------



## Shechemite (May 15, 2018)

‘Too much fuss/nothing special about the Jews’

The kind of thing David Duke would come out with


----------



## JimW (May 15, 2018)

Classic whataboutery bollocks isn't it? As if not being a raging antisemite would somehow hold you back from campaigning in support of any of those other groups mentioned.


----------



## Shechemite (May 15, 2018)

It gets better (well, worse)


----------



## bemused (May 15, 2018)

I don't know, if I were trying to move away from the endless stories of anti-semitism amongst some in the left I'd personally stop using the phrase 'the jews' - actually I'd stop talking about the subject entirely.


----------



## cantsin (May 15, 2018)

bemused said:


> I don't know, if I were trying to move away from the endless stories of anti-semitism amongst some in the left I'd personally stop using the phrase 'the jews' - actually I'd stop talking about the subject entirely.



agreed- but that person has 408 followers, from 1K follows - tweet after tweet with zero engagement = literally no one's listening to them anyway, though whacking up a big screen grab on here might make it look otherwise I guess


----------



## Shechemite (May 15, 2018)

cantsin said:


> agreed- but that person has 408 followers, from 1K follows - tweet after tweet with zero engagement = literally no one's listening to them anyway, though whacking up a big screen grab on here might make it look otherwise I guess



More followers than me mind. 

Anyway, what’s your point?


----------



## cantsin (May 15, 2018)

MadeInBedlam said:


> More followers than me mind.
> 
> Anyway, what’s your point?



I would have thought that was pretty obvious


----------



## Shechemite (May 15, 2018)

cantsin said:


> I would have thought that was pretty obvious



yes, that anti-semitism is less of a problem than is being alleged.

Which is (one of) the points being asserted by the anti-semite in the screen grab.

I was hoping you had a less shit point to make as well


----------



## cantsin (May 15, 2018)

MadeInBedlam said:


> yes, that anti-semitism is less of a problem than is being alleged.
> 
> W



what utter bollocks...
I can go and find a random crank tweeting sh*t to support any given political proposition, however ridiculous , offensive,or nonsensical you want it, and then bang it up here - wtf is the point ? what does that prove , what were you trying to prove / achieve with it ?


----------



## Shechemite (May 15, 2018)

Because it’s reflective of the reach of this poison into all manner of ‘left wing’ movements (eg disability rights and mental health activism). 

But I guess that’s what they wan you to think


----------



## cantsin (May 15, 2018)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Because it’s reflective of the reach of this poison into all manner of ‘left wing’ movements (eg disability rights and mental health activism).



single crank tweeting shit, with no one listening, is reflective of very little imo


----------



## Shechemite (May 15, 2018)

cantsin said:


> single crank tweeting shit, with no one listening, is reflective of very little imo



‘Cranks’ (including, but not exclusively anti-Semitic ones) are a massive problem in disability and MH activism.  

You didn’t follow the Alfie Evans case then?


----------



## dessiato (May 21, 2018)

Ken Livingstone quits Labour after antisemitism claims

Ken Livingstone quits Labour after antisemitism claims


----------



## bemused (May 21, 2018)

dessiato said:


> Ken Livingstone quits Labour after antisemitism claims
> 
> Ken Livingstone quits Labour after antisemitism claims



Ken got so bored waiting for them to kick him he quit.


----------



## Whagwan (May 23, 2018)




----------



## Humirax (May 24, 2018)

*Martin Lux*‏ @*red_black_tv* 









"Ken Livingstone" Why is it that nobody cares to remember " Red Ken" unleashed thousands of riot cops on Mayday demonstrators in the early part of this century. Not once,but three years in succession.


	11:28 pm - 22 May 2018


----------



## 19force8 (Jun 5, 2018)

19force8 said:


> This is an interesting account of shenanigans in the early 90's involving Wadsworth, Livingstone, Socialist Action et al
> 
> Some Political Background on Mark Wadsworth.
> 
> I've got to say I don't remember the sectarian stuff, virtually no internet in those days and I was a bit isolated in South London. Actually, the 90's as a whole are vague.


If you read the above it will hardly come as a surprise that Wadsworth has split from Labour Against the Witchunt. Grass Roots Black Left statement: 

Grassroots Black Left leaves LAW – Labour against the witch-hunt

It claims, as always with Wadsworth, to be about "important principles of black self-organisation and self-determination." Or, possibly, the Steering Committee wouldn't do as Wadsworth told them.

If you're wondering who Grass Roots Black Left are you can read about their founding here:

Labour Party black sections reborn as a new movement


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 5, 2018)

19force8 said:


> Actually, the 90's as a whole are vague.


if you can remember them you weren't there


----------



## belboid (Jun 5, 2018)

19force8 said:


> If you read the above it will hardly come as a surprise that Wadsworth has split from Labour Against the Witchunt. Grass Roots Black Left statement:
> 
> Grassroots Black Left leaves LAW – Labour against the witch-hunt
> 
> It claims, as always with Wadsworth, to be about "important principles of black self-organisation and self-determination." Or, possibly, the Steering Committee wouldn't do as Wadsworth told them.


And, possibly, he thought they were led by arseholes.  At the (LAW organised) sheffield meeting he refused to speak from the platform cos he didn’t like the chair


----------



## 19force8 (Jun 5, 2018)

belboid said:


> And, possibly, he thought they were led by arseholes.  At the (LAW organised) sheffield meeting he refused to speak from the platform cos he didn’t like the chair


"Thought they were led by arseholes" and "wouldn't do as he said" not mutually exclusive though are they?

Btw, would agree with the former description, specially if it included MW.


----------



## belboid (Jun 5, 2018)

19force8 said:


> "Thought they were led by arseholes" and "wouldn't do as he said" not mutually exclusive though are they?
> 
> Btw, would agree with the former description, specially if it included MW.


oh, absolutely. At the meeting he also said he believed Livingstone had quit so as to not distract from his (Wadsworth's) campaign. The room was not wholly convinced by his argument.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Jun 20, 2018)

Didn’t quite know where to put this, maybe should start a why the morning star has gone all tae fuck thread, but anyway, seemingly they’ve taken this down now


----------



## cantsin (Jun 20, 2018)

Can't say I've seen any discernible rise in A/S of late, despite the fact that Israel has been on one it's  spectacular little state murder sprees ?


----------



## treelover (Sep 19, 2018)

https://order-order.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/powell.mp4?_=10




Big rally in Manchester last week, apparently Lucy Powell agreeing with chants that "Corbyn must go"


----------



## mojo pixy (Sep 19, 2018)

treelover said:


> https://order-order.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/powell.mp4?_=10
> 
> Big rally in Manchester last week, apparently Lucy Powell agreeing with chants that "Corbyn must go"



Israeli flags front and centre ffs. That's gonna help


----------



## Sasaferrato (Feb 24, 2019)

From today's Guardian.

Stephen Brown, who supplements his pension by selling sausages to the local pubs, also said he was sad Berger was gone. “She didn’t deserve to be treated that way,” he said, adding as an unthinking afterthought, “even though she is Jewish.”

Like most people I encountered, Brown is a diehard Labour supporter, but not one particularly aware of antisemitic issues, including his own. “I’ve got nothing against Jeremy Corbyn,” he said, “but he got into bed with the wrong Jews.” What did that mean? “The high rollers,” he explained.

Anger, denial and prejudice fester on the streets of Liverpool Wavertree

Utterly revolting.


----------



## danny la rouge (Feb 24, 2019)

I’m surprised this hasn’t been discussed on Urban already. There should have been a thread before this.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 24, 2019)

> *Any-Semetism*


----------



## Badgers (Feb 24, 2019)

Is this a thing then?


----------



## danny la rouge (Feb 24, 2019)

Badgers said:


> Is this a thing then?


Yes. It’s disgusting.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 24, 2019)

Saw some anise-emetism once, it turned my stomach


----------



## Badgers (Feb 24, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Yes. It’s disgusting.


I am horrified about it. Had anyone informed the right wing press?

Would hate to think that Corbyn was goose stepping around and the media were missing out


----------



## danny la rouge (Feb 24, 2019)

Badgers said:


> I am horrified about it. Had anyone informed the right wing press?
> 
> Would hate to think that Corbyn was goose stepping around and the media were missing our.


That’s the thing: nobody is paying any attention to it.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Feb 24, 2019)

brogdale said:


>



Thank you. Amended.


----------



## Badgers (Feb 24, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> That’s the thing: nobody is paying any attention to it.


I always assumed it was more of a Tory party thing


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 24, 2019)

Sasaferrato said:


> Thank you. Amended.


Anti-semitism

Not anti-semetism


----------



## Badgers (Feb 24, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Not anti-semetism


I thought that was a pastry shop in Fulham?


----------



## skyscraper101 (Feb 24, 2019)

Let’s not get caught up in semantics.


----------



## danny la rouge (Feb 24, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Anti-semitism
> 
> Not anti-semetism


Sas is Scottish, maybe he means semmet, an undershirt or vest.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 24, 2019)

Badgers said:


> I thought that was a pastry shop in Fulham?


Aunty semett's


----------



## Badgers (Feb 24, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Aunty semett's


That is the one


----------



## Sasaferrato (Feb 24, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> That’s the thing: nobody is paying any attention to it.



Also from the Guardian.

'Watson said he had received 50 complaints about antisemitism from colleagues in the past week, which he had forwarded to Corbyn. “Jeremy needs to understand that if we are going to be in No 10, he needs to change the Labour party,” he said. He needs to take a personal lead in reviewing those cases, and recommending to the national executive committee what needs to be done.”

Details of the dossier, seen by the Guardian, include Labour members sending tweets linking Hitler and the Rothschilds, accusing Jews of murdering children and questioning whether Jewish MPs and councillors have “human blood”.

All of the cases have been raised by Watson or other Labour MPs over a period of several months, but no action has been reported back to those who have raised the complaints, he said.

One case involved a tweet, which read: “Wonder why Jewish people are hated wherever they’ve settled over last 2000 years. Their double dealing, back stabbing, cheating chilling coldness has always only one outcome. I wonder what the average period of time is before people fed up with the anti-social Jews kick em out”.

Another concerned a tweet saying that, “Jews murder people and children”.

A third complaint involved comments about Jewish MPs and councillors that said: “Don’t know what runs through their veins, not human blood” and “their hearts and brains totally devoid of humanity”.

A fourth complaint related to social media posts, including one that said: “Hitler is an illegitimate Rothschild, so any offspring of him who would have a good chance of being propelled into a position of power.”'

What a fucking cesspit the Labour party has become.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 24, 2019)

Sasaferrato said:


> Also from the Guardian.
> 
> 'Watson said he had received 50 complaints about antisemitism from colleagues in the past week, which he had forwarded to Corbyn. “Jeremy needs to understand that if we are going to be in No 10, he needs to change the Labour party,” he said. He needs to take a personal lead in reviewing those cases, and recommending to the national executive committee what needs to be done.”
> 
> ...


It's always been a cesspit


----------



## Badgers (Feb 24, 2019)

Sasaferrato said:


> What a fucking cesspit the Labour party has become.


If all of that is true the Labour Party is still nowhere near the shitcunt cesspit the Conservative Party always has been and always will be.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Feb 24, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Anti-semitism
> 
> Not anti-semetism



Indeed. I'm not having a good day with my spelling.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 24, 2019)

Badgers said:


> If all of that is true the Labour Party is nowhere near the shitcunt cesspit the Conservative Party always has been and always will be.


Yeh the tory party a horrendous midden


----------



## cupid_stunt (Feb 24, 2019)

Sasaferrato said:


> Indeed. I'm not having a good day with my spelling.



Another title edit, thrid time lucky.


----------



## mauvais (Feb 24, 2019)

That article's a heap of shit.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Feb 24, 2019)

Badgers said:


> If all of that is true the Labour Party is nowhere near the shitcunt cesspit the Conservative Party always has been and always will be.



You have some evidence of anti-Semitism in the Conservative party? Please do post it.

I don't doubt that it exists, however, it is the Labour party in the well documented spotlight at the moment.


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 24, 2019)

skyscraper101 said:


> Let’s not get caught up in semantics.



I take your point, but it’s important to understand: the etymology of antisemitism; how it was the expression was popularised to provide ‘scientific’ legitimacy to anti-Jewish bigotry (but has since come to be used as to describe anti-Jewish bigotry); and how ‘semitism’ is a term used by antisemites to mask their antisemitism

ETA actually I didn’t see what you were replying to. Nevertheless it’s still important.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Feb 24, 2019)

Sasaferrato said:


> You have some evidence of anti-Semitism in the Conservative party? Please do post it.
> 
> I don't doubt that it exists, however, it is the Labour party in the well documented spotlight at the moment.



Would you like to see evidence of the pope's religious convictions and a bears toilet habits too?


----------



## Sasaferrato (Feb 24, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> Another title edit, thrid time lucky.



Please tell me that there are no further errors. My typing is always trying to catch up with the thought... not always successfully.


----------



## Badgers (Feb 24, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> Another title edit, thrid time lucky.


I would like the . removed and ideally the 'and' replaced with & just to keep things neat. 

Also I think the correct way to write it is 'anti-Semitism' rather than 'Anti-Semetism' but am not sure about that


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 24, 2019)

Sasaferrato said:


> You have some evidence of anti-Semitism in the Conservative party? Please do post it.
> 
> I don't doubt that it exists, however, it is the Labour party in the well documented spotlight at the moment.


Yeh I wonder why the racism endemic in the tory party so rarely receives the attention it deserves. The likes of Jacob Rees-Mogg dining with other far-righters, for example...


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 24, 2019)

Sasaferrato said:


> You have some evidence of anti-Semitism in the Conservative party? Please do post it.
> 
> I don't doubt that it exists, however, it is the Labour party in the well documented spotlight at the moment.



There’s loads of racism (of all stripes) in the Tories. They are a thoroughly racist party


----------



## ffsear (Feb 24, 2019)

Badgers said:


> If all of that is true the Labour Party is still nowhere near the shitcunt cesspit the Conservative Party always has been and always will be.



Is it a competition ?


----------



## Badgers (Feb 24, 2019)

Sasaferrato said:


> You have some evidence of anti-Semitism in the Conservative party? Please do post it.
> 
> I don't doubt that it exists, however, it is the Labour party in the well documented spotlight at the moment.


The 'spotlight' as you say has been mostly created by a media who have a lot to gain by keeping our greedy, self-serving and cruel Tory government in power.


----------



## Badgers (Feb 24, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh I wonder why the racism endemic in the tory party so rarely receives the attention it deserves. The likes of Jacob Rees-Mogg dining with other far-righters, for example...


Bongo Bongo land is just a bit of banter


----------



## Sasaferrato (Feb 24, 2019)

Badgers said:


> I would like the . removed and ideally the 'and' replaced with & just to keep things neat.
> 
> Also I think the correct way to write it is 'anti-Semitism' rather than 'Anti-Semetism' but am not sure about that



You got one of your wishes. 

I don't start that many threads, but I don't think I've ever had to edit a title before.


----------



## mauvais (Feb 24, 2019)

This lot in the comments have the measure of it about right:


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 24, 2019)

Badgers said:


> The 'spotlight' as you say has been mostly created by a media who have a lot to gain by keeping our greedy, self-serving and cruel Tory government in power.



Nothing to with Jewish people inside and outside of the Labour Party raising it?


----------



## Badgers (Feb 24, 2019)

Sasaferrato said:


> You got one of your wishes.
> 
> I don't start that many threads, but I don't think I've ever had to edit a title before.


Cheers Sas


----------



## Sasaferrato (Feb 24, 2019)

Badgers said:


> The 'spotlight' as you say has been mostly created by a media who have a lot to gain by keeping our greedy, self-serving and cruel Tory government in power.



I shouldn't imagine that the media favour either stripe of government. Give any government time and they will fuck up. A bit like football managers really, what talent there was dissipates.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Feb 24, 2019)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Nothing to with Jewish people inside and outside of the Labour Party raising it?



Quite. Distraction is of course a very common way of pushing the conversation off the point.


----------



## tim (Feb 24, 2019)

This article attacking Ralph Mlliband and by association his son who was leading Labour at the time, is as good as an antisemitic dog-whistle as you'll find anywhere








Perhaps not as overt as this from an earlier edition of the Daily Mail.







They're still not keen on those who mix with the wrong sort of Jew


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 24, 2019)

Tbh I just find the idea of bourgeois political parties (such as Labour) being subject to too much scrutiny to be utterly bizarre. As I’ve not exactly been subtle about on these boards, I’ve soent my life in an out of institutional ‘care’ settings. The response to labour racism is chillingly familiar to the responses I’ve received and witness when complaining about abuse in care settings/services. 

One of those similarities is care providers replying saying ‘but we’re not any worse than other providers’. It’s irelevant and sickening 

And tbh, even if I wasn’t jewish, my contempt for labour would still be there, given  their support for discrimination against people with mental health problems.


----------



## Sprocket. (Feb 24, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh I wonder why the racism endemic in the tory party so rarely receives the attention it deserves. The likes of Jacob Rees-Mogg dining with other far-righters, for example...



The Islamaphobia that is allegedly rampant within the Tory Party, as well as their hesitancy in rejecting dog whistle reactions and prejudice from the right-wing press was supposedly being highlighted from earlier last year.
Yet there is little evidence in the said media about any of this.


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 24, 2019)

tim said:


> This article attacking Ralph Mlliband and by association his son who was leading Labour at the time, is as good as an antisemitic dog-whistle as you'll find anywhere
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Gonna be a shock to Urbanites to discover the daily mail being racist


----------



## tim (Feb 24, 2019)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Gonna be a shock to Urbanites to discover the daily mail being racist



A surprise for Sasaferrato, perhaps


----------



## killer b (Feb 24, 2019)

Sasaferrato said:


> Quite. Distraction is of course a very common way of pushing the conversation off the point.


Its working though - theres barely a whisper about this anywhere.


----------



## Badgers (Feb 24, 2019)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Gonna be a shock to Urbanites to discover the daily mail being racist


But they have a good telly guide


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 24, 2019)

killer b said:


> Its working though - theres barely a whisper about this anywhere.



How much attention was there to racism in the Conservative party prior to 2018 (or even 2015). 

The tolerance for Tory racism has sod all to do with attention on labour antisemitism.


----------



## Serge Forward (Feb 24, 2019)

It's a given that the Tory Party is racist as fuck, as it's also a given that the media will generally downplay this racism. But the response to anti semitism in the Labour Party of "but look at the Tories" by those on the left is rubbish. You might as well be saying "but look at Hungary so let's not talk about it" and it is a shit response. Also the fact that the big names that have brought up anti semitism have tended to be on the right of the party makes it no less valid.


----------



## 19sixtysix (Feb 24, 2019)

Of my experience of the labour branch meetings there was no anti-semitism. 
I've seen plenty on line but who knows who's on line and whether they're a member.
I do know until the recent elections the NEC the main party apparatus was still in the hands of the Blairites who were trying to blame Corbyn for inaction when it was still their place men in charge.
Lets see if we can get rid of the real anti-semites They are not welcome. As to the MPs who have left they used everything and anything to get at Corbyn. Who knows what the truth is? They all signed the letter trying to bully Corbyn out instead of calling an election but when the members try to campaign and call a reselection election it's bullying. The party is well rid of them.


----------



## danny la rouge (Feb 24, 2019)

Serge Forward said:


> It's a given that the Tory Party is racist as fuck, as it's also a given that the media will generally downplay this racism. But the response to anti semitism in the Labour Party of "but look at the Tories" by those on the left is rubbish. You might as well be saying "but look at Hungary so let's not talk about it" and it is a shit response. Also the fact that the big names that have brought up anti semitism have tended to be on the right of the party makes it no less valid.


Agreed.


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 24, 2019)

I also think the labour AS issue is about what sort of socialism we want. The attempts to minimise labour AS and attack those who raise it reflect an authoritarianism. 

And I don’t think it’s a coincidence that Chris Williamson’s defence of Maduro, Beeley etc also happens be very keen to downplay labour AS.


----------



## Serge Forward (Feb 24, 2019)

Not that I actually give a fuck for the bosses' front.


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 24, 2019)

Serge Forward said:


> It's a given that the Tory Party is racist as fuck, as it's also a given that the media will generally downplay this racism. But the response to anti semitism in the Labour Party of "but look at the Tories" by those on the left is rubbish. You might as well be saying "but look at Hungary so let's not talk about it" and it is a shit response. Also the fact that the big names that have brought up anti semitism have tended to be on the right of the party makes it no less valid.



This. Either we have principles or we don’t.


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 24, 2019)

MadeInBedlam said:


> I also think the labour AS issue is about what sort of socialism we want. The attempts to minimise labour AS and attack those who raise it reflect an authoritarianism.
> 
> And I don’t think it’s a coincidence that Chris Williamson’s defence of Maduro, Beeley etc also happens be very keen to downplay labour AS.



Has there been any work done on differing attitudes towards antisemtism between liberation and Leninist/social democratic socialist movements?


----------



## Sprocket. (Feb 24, 2019)

tim said:


> This article attacking Ralph Mlliband and by association his son who was leading Labour at the time, is as good as an antisemitic dog-whistle as you'll find anywhere
> 
> 
> 
> ...



But that’s okay. Because Ralph Miliband was not only Jewish, he was a Marxist Jew. That means you can say what you like about him with no comeback! He even wrote books and papers extolling the values of Marxism. So that’s another target because not only was Marx extolling the values of Marxist thought, he was a German Jew and The Daily Mail hated them as much as they hate Islamists and Irish Republicans.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 24, 2019)

Serge Forward said:


> It's a given that the Tory Party is racist as fuck, as it's also a given that the media will generally downplay this racism. But the response to anti semitism in the Labour Party of "but look at the Tories" by those on the left is rubbish. You might as well be saying "but look at Hungary so let's not talk about it" and it is a shit response. Also the fact that the big names that have brought up anti semitism have tended to be on the right of the party makes it no less valid.



Indeed, but giving the impression that antisemitism is a uniquely Corbyn inspired Labour problem is also a rubbish approach.


----------



## danny la rouge (Feb 24, 2019)

two sheds said:


> Indeed, but giving the impression that antisemitism is a uniquely Corbyn inspired Labour problem is also a rubbish approach.


Corbyn has been inept, accident-prone, and shit at dealing with both the problem and the coverage of it.


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 24, 2019)

On a positive note (of which there aren’t many with this) witnessing antisemitism (of considerable virulence and quantity) within the activist circles that I’ve been involved in, and the tolerance for that antisemitism - as well as having over the past few months being bullied out of an activist group for raising it, being doxxed for it, being accused of all manner of things for it, and only yesterday being told my someone that they would ‘make my name mud’ (??) - it has made me really reflect on how much tolerance I’ve given to the kind of Red-Brown crap that is driving antisemitism in labour


----------



## two sheds (Feb 24, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Corbyn has been inept, accident-prone, and shit at dealing with both the problem and the coverage of it.



Wouldn't argue with that.


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 24, 2019)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Has there been any work done on differing attitudes towards antisemtism between liberation and Leninist/social democratic socialist movements?



Paging people more intelligent than myself (of which there are many): copliker danny la rouge butchersapron Serge Forward


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 24, 2019)

apologies if the tagging is irritating


----------



## Sprocket. (Feb 24, 2019)

MadeInBedlam said:


> apologies if the tagging is irritating



Say what you like about tagging it isn’t Anti-Semitic.

edit. Wrong thread.


----------



## Sprocket. (Feb 24, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Corbyn has been inept, accident-prone, and shit at dealing with both the problem and the coverage of it.



It seems he is in denial of any claims of anti-Semitism. I personally cannot accept that he is inept and I am starting to believe it is deliberate.


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 24, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> It seems he is in denial of any claims of anti-Semitism. I personally cannot accept that he is inept and I am starting to believe it is deliberate.



To borrow the phrase, he must be most unfortunate if his blindness to antisemitism isn’t wilful


----------



## cantsin (Feb 24, 2019)

Sasaferrato said:


> Also from the Guardian.
> 
> 'Watson said he had received 50 complaints about antisemitism from colleagues in the past week, which he had forwarded to Corbyn. “Jeremy needs to understand that if we are going to be in No 10, he needs to change the Labour party,” he said. He needs to take a personal lead in reviewing those cases, and recommending to the national executive committee what needs to be done.”
> 
> ...



 come along to a CLP and tell us all about it, you cynical, know nothing, no mark w*nker

or maybe go along to Wavertree CLP, share your  " Hillsborough - it was the drunken scousers own fault " theories, and take it from there


----------



## cantsin (Feb 24, 2019)

Sasaferrato said:


> Anti-Zionism is a thin disguise for anti-Semitism.



why bother starting a new thread eh ? we know exactly where you're coming from / what you're about, always have, you can't help yourself...


----------



## TopCat (Feb 24, 2019)

Watson is reporting right wing attacks on jews as being from the left. The bloke is a cunt.


----------



## chilango (Feb 24, 2019)

As an aside Sasaferrato is like my Mum.
She too thinks that the Labour Party doing something shit somehow reflects badly on me, someone who has been resolutely  and consistently anti-Labour for 3 decades.


----------



## 8ball (Feb 24, 2019)

chilango said:


> As an aside Sasaferrato is like my Mum.
> She too thinks that the Labour Party doing something shit somehow reflects badly on me, someone who has been resolutely  and consistently anti-Labour for 3 decades.



Yeah, thinking the Daily Mail is a fetid shitrag means I’m Corbyn’s biggest fan according to my Dad.


----------



## Serge Forward (Feb 24, 2019)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Has there been any work done on differing attitudes towards antisemtism between liberation and Leninist/social democratic socialist movements?


Off the top of my head: An Investigation Into Red-Brown Alliances: Third Positionism, Russia, Ukraine, Syria, And The Western Left


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 24, 2019)

Serge Forward said:


> Off the top of my head: An Investigation Into Red-Brown Alliances: Third Positionism, Russia, Ukraine, Syria, And The Western Left



Cheers


----------



## cantsin (Feb 24, 2019)

TopCat said:


> Watson is reporting right wing attacks on jews as being from the left. The bloke is a cunt.



Peter Kyle, Brighton MP, who has taken weaponisation of AS etc to new levels in his fight vs socialism in his CLP, referred to the ' anti semitic bully now in prison ' for harassing Luciana Berger earlier in the week - he forgot to mention that the f*ckwit in question was a self declared white nationalist.

As for the ' 50 AS incidents reported by PLP members this week' that Watson keeps referring to ?  Apparently nearly all involve anyone so much as mentioning Joan Ryan's role as chair of LFI, and her being caught up,  on camera, in the Lobby undercover filming :


----------



## danny la rouge (Feb 24, 2019)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Paging people more intelligent than myself (of which there are many): copliker danny la rouge butchersapron Serge Forward


Huge topic, and Serge Forward 's link is a good one.  There is certainly evidence of links between the statist left and anti-semitism.

Take Vanessa Beeley, as a example.  She has links to both Info Wars and to CPGB - ML.  (Paging Geri , who knows far more about her connections than I do).

Then there's RESPECT, and its relationship with reactionary social attitudes.  And so on.

I know this is in Workers Liberty, but Moishe Postone (who died last year) is worth reading:

www.workersliberty.org/story/2010/02/05/zionism-anti-semitism-and-left


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 24, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> It seems he is in denial of any claims of anti-Semitism. I personally cannot accept that he is inept and I am starting to believe it is deliberate.


I can believe he is inept and that it is deliberate


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 24, 2019)

Sasaferrato said:


> Anti-Zionism is a thin disguise for anti-Semitism.


So all those Jews who are anti-zionist are in fact anti-semitic  catch yourself on


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 24, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> I can believe he is inept and that it is deliberate



Ever the optimist


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 24, 2019)

cantsin said:


> Peter Kyle, Brighton MP, who has taken weaponisation of AS etc to new levels in his fight vs socialism in his CLP, referred to the ' anti semitic bully now in prison ' for harassing Luciana Berger earlier in the week - he forgot to mention that the f*ckwit in question was a self declared white nationalist.
> 
> As for the ' 50 AS incidents reported by PLP members this week' that Watson keeps referring to ?  Apparently nearly all involve anyone so much as mentioning Joan Ryan's role as chair of LFI, and her being caught up,  on camera, in the Lobby undercover filming :




I think I’ve asked you this before, but why do think your attitude on this is helping either challenging antisemitism or the prospects of a labour government


----------



## chilango (Feb 24, 2019)

...and reluctant as I am to dignify this duplicate thread with further responses, it's worth a reminder that much anti-Semitism in the Labour Party isn't some semi-mystical moral failing but comes from some quite specific failings of elements of the Left.

One is the hobbyist enthusiasm for overseas causes, that has led to "over enthusiasm" re Palestine. The general absence of class based analysis has allowed a certain void to be filled with an empty stridence that then in turn is too easily filled by anti-Semitism.

Secondly, again as a result from an absence of s class based analysis, the conspiraloons and their often anti-Semitic worldview have stepped in to suck in the activists with time on their hands and a social media account to occupy their idle hands.

These are not excuses.


----------



## Sprocket. (Feb 24, 2019)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Ever the optimist



It is the ever present optimism of Pickman's model that always draws me back.


----------



## isvicthere? (Feb 24, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> So all those Jews who are anti-zionist are in fact anti-semitic  catch yourself on



e.g. Noam Chomsky, one of the most vocal critics of the Israeli state.


----------



## tim (Feb 24, 2019)

TopCat said:


> Watson is reporting right wing attacks on jews as being from the left. The bloke is a cunt.




Watson was terribly keen to accuse Leon Brittan of sex offences, and subsequently had to apologise. I always felt there was an antisemitic tinge to this, as is indeed suggested in this Telegraph article on Brittan

Redirect Notice

With reference to Brittan and other Jewish Tories, I remember Harold Macmillan's comment that Thatcher had "more Old Estonians than Old Etonians" in her cabinet.


Redirect Notice


----------



## cantsin (Feb 24, 2019)

MadeInBedlam said:


> I think I’ve asked you this before, but why do think your attitude on this is helping either challenging antisemitism or the prospects of a labour government



not  sure what 'attitude' you're seeing from the two things referred to there, or more generally tbh - do you want to set out what you consider this ' attitude' to be ?


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 24, 2019)

Attitude, position, approach. Whatever term your comfortable with. 

Do you think your helping to challenging antisemitism in labour or helping Labour’s electoral chances


----------



## cantsin (Feb 24, 2019)

chilango said:


> ...and reluctant as I am to dignify this duplicate thread with further responses, it's worth a reminder that much anti-Semitism in the Labour Party isn't some semi-mystical moral failing but comes from some quite specific failings of elements of the Left.
> 
> One is the hobbyist enthusiasm for overseas causes, that has led to "over enthusiasm" re Palestine. The general absence of class based analysis has allowed a certain void to be filled with an empty stridence that then in turn is too easily filled by anti-Semitism.
> 
> ...




edit


----------



## cantsin (Feb 24, 2019)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Attitude, position, approach. Whatever term your comfortable with.
> 
> Do you think your helping to challenging antisemitism in labour or helping Labour’s electoral chances



In my own small way, have been trying to challenge Lab AS over the least month in partic -  see response to Chilango post for some deets

And honestly, the likes of Peter Kyle, and the multitude of cynical weaponisers within the PLP. are just helping fuel the cranks in the ranks, it's all so blatant, it undermines (eg) the anti AS positions that Momentum are trying to take of late


----------



## Sasaferrato (Feb 24, 2019)

MadeInBedlam said:


> How much attention was there to racism in the Conservative party prior to 2018 (or even 2015).
> 
> The tolerance for Tory racism has sod all to do with attention on labour antisemitism.



Quite.

I do find it quite interesting that posters have introduced topics to the thread completely irrelevant to the the OP.

Whatever the Conservative party is or isn't, has absolutely nothing to do with the subject of the thread.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Feb 24, 2019)

19sixtysix said:


> Of my experience of the labour branch meetings there was no anti-semitism.
> I've seen plenty on line but who knows who's on line and whether they're a member.
> I do know until the recent elections the NEC the main party apparatus was still in the hands of the Blairites who were trying to blame Corbyn for inaction when it was still their place men in charge.
> Lets see if we can get rid of the real anti-semites They are not welcome. As to the MPs who have left they used everything and anything to get at Corbyn. Who knows what the truth is? They all signed the letter trying to bully Corbyn out instead of calling an election but when the members try to campaign and call a reselection election it's bullying. The party is well rid of them.



On a slight derail, calling for an election is a waste of air. Turkey's don't vote for Christmas.


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 24, 2019)

Sasaferrato said:


> Quite.
> 
> I do find it quite interesting that posters have introduced topics to the thread completely irrelevant to the the OP.
> 
> Whatever the Conservative party is or isn't, has absolutely nothing to do with the subject of the thread.



Holy Hasmoneans I’m going to be accused of being a useful fool of the right-wing soon


----------



## Sasaferrato (Feb 24, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> But that’s okay. Because Ralph Miliband was not only Jewish, he was a Marxist Jew. That means you can say what you like about him with no comeback! He even wrote books and papers extolling the values of Marxism. So that’s another target because not only was Marx extolling the values of Marxist thought, he was a German Jew and The Daily Mail hated them as much as they hate Islamists and Irish Republicans.



The Mail, IIRC did like both Hitler and Moseley though.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Feb 24, 2019)

two sheds said:


> Indeed, but giving the impression that antisemitism is a uniquely Corbyn inspired Labour problem is also a rubbish approach.



Indeed. You may have noticed that in the OP, I made no mention of Corbyn.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Feb 24, 2019)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Holy Hasmoneans I’m going to be accused of being a useful fool of the right-wing soon


----------



## cupid_stunt (Feb 24, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Corbyn has been inept, accident-prone, and shit at dealing with both the problem and the coverage of it.



In that respect, he's on a par with the Pope over child abuse.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Feb 24, 2019)

In case you missed this rather large thread, Sas -www.urban75.net/forums/threads/labour-anti-semitism.343402/


----------



## Sasaferrato (Feb 24, 2019)

chilango said:


> As an aside Sasaferrato is like my Mum.
> She too thinks that the Labour Party doing something shit somehow reflects badly on me, someone who has been resolutely  and consistently anti-Labour for 3 decades.



I'll donate £100.00 to the charity of your choice, if you can show me where I said that any action of the Labour party reflects badly on you.

I don't think either that every member of the Labour party is Anti-Semitic, and have not said so.

BTW, the only newspaper I read regularly is the Guardian. I've pretty much given up on the others, which have turned into clickbait children's comics.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Feb 24, 2019)

Mr.Bishie said:


> In case you missed this rather large thread, Sas -www.urban75.net/forums/threads/labour-anti-semitism.343402/



Didn't see that.  It is a couple of years old.


----------



## redsquirrel (Feb 24, 2019)

chilango said:


> Secondly, again as a result from an absence of s class based analysis, the conspiraloons and their often anti-Semitic worldview have stepped in to suck in the activists with time on their hands and a social media account to occupy their idle hands.


Yep. Even on here there have been a few instances of this willingness to excuse/pass off anti-semitic loon stuff.


----------



## chilango (Feb 24, 2019)

Sasaferrato said:


> I'll donate £100.00 to the charity of your choice, if you can show me where I said that any action of the Labour party reflects badly on you.
> 
> I don't think either that every member of the Labour party is Anti-Semitic, and have not said so.
> 
> BTW, the only newspaper I read regularly is the Guardian. I've pretty much given up on the others, which have turned into clickbait children's comics.



I'm not, nor have I ever been, a member of the Labour Party.

Jeez we've both here long enough that you should know that.

My point is that both you and my Mum seem to equate the Labour Party with the Left and act under the illusion that landing a (justified) blow on the the former us somehow an argument against the latter.

You won't find many in here willing or wishing to defend the Labour Party when it fucks up, as it regularly does, yet your posts seem to to imply to a  reader like myself that somehow it's a "gotcha" moment.


----------



## cantsin (Feb 24, 2019)

Sasaferrato said:


> Didn't see that.  It is a couple of years old.



you posted your usual ignorant drivel on it


----------



## Sasaferrato (Feb 24, 2019)

chilango said:


> I'm not, nor have I ever been, a member of the Labour Party.
> 
> Jeez we've both here long enough that you should know that.
> 
> ...



Not many defending the Labour party, full stop.


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Feb 24, 2019)

Sasaferrato said:


> From today's Guardian.
> 
> Stephen Brown, who supplements his pension by selling sausages to the local pubs, also said he was sad Berger was gone. “She didn’t deserve to be treated that way,” he said, adding as an unthinking afterthought, “even though she is Jewish.”
> 
> ...



Kelvin McKenzie prize for Liverpool journalism winner.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 24, 2019)

I'd have preferred Corbyn to be more active, but I assume he's condemned individual examples of antisemitism and left the investigations to the existing Labour party procedures. As in:

Labour: 673 anti-Semitism reports in 10 months



> 673 complaints of anti-Semitism by Labour Party members were received - a Labour spokesman said this represented about 0.1% of the membership
> 96 members were immediately suspended after complaints were made and a further 211 were told they would be investigated
> 146 members received a first warning, and 220 cases did not have sufficient evidence of a breach of party rules for an investigation
> Of the 307 who were suspended or notified of an investigation, 44 members left the party
> ...



Any comments on these - how should the investigations have gone? They should be more open, although I'm not sure whether that would invite legal proceedings if they start naming people.

How will we know when AS has been successfully handled by the party by the way?


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Feb 24, 2019)

Jewdas were raging when Israel won Eurovision, the anti-Semitic bastards. 
In fairness though,  anti-Zionism is actually the form anti-semitism tends to take in this day and age, rather than the old school goose-stepping and that. I picked up on this far too late in the day, with regards to a pro Palestine group up here. Mind how you tread.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 24, 2019)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> Jewdas were raging when Israel won Eurovision, the anti-Semitic bastards.
> In fairness though,  anti-Zionism is actually the form anti-semitism tends to take in this day and age, rather than the old school goose-stepping and that. I picked up on this far too late in the day, with regards to a pro Palestine group up here. Mind how you tread.



It happens, but is 'Zionism/Zionist' necessarily antisemitic? I prefer "Israeli government" when talking about actions against Palestinians. Pickman's model regularly uses "Zionist entity",though, and I don't see many people being more aware of the history or the issues.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Feb 24, 2019)

Yeah i’d stick with Israeli government. I’ve just come off 4 nights but if I mind on in the morning I think there’s a few good links on why using certain terms might be a bit dodge.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Feb 24, 2019)

My original post didn’t state Zionism was necessarily anti-Semitic, I don’t want to expand on that right now in case I fuck up, but what I meant was actual anti-semites are using that particular issue these days to express those views,  that’s where you’ll find them. If that makes sense.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 24, 2019)

Yep fair play. Some could be Labour members some might not. Not sure how we tell tbh.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Feb 24, 2019)

two sheds said:


> Yep fair play. Some could be Labour members some might not. Not sure how we tell tbh.


It becomes apparent after a while. Just watch!


----------



## two sheds (Feb 24, 2019)

Ah I'm not on Facebook or Twitter so wouldn't know that side of it.


----------



## Southlondon (Feb 24, 2019)

Sasaferrato said:


> Not many defending the Labour party, full stop.


I will defend the Labour Party until I die, as the alternative is a Tory-led Government as we know, and that will benefit no one except the rich as we know. However, unconditional does not equate to uncritical. My criticism of the Labour Party at present is that the Party structure didn’t act to suspend the treacherous right wing detractors with the same ruthless efficiency that the blairitte dregs displayed when the same faces tried every which way to scupper Corbyns election as leader. It is total naivety to believe they haven’t been biding their time waiting for a suitable issue to arise which they could attach themselves to for maximum effect, There were plenty of just opportunities to suspend them and other defectors in waiting for insubordination and breach of standards, but alas the left are too soft compared to the ruthless stalinistic-efficiency of the right wingers.
As for the antisemitism issue, in a party of half a million there will as a matter of course be members who’s views and opinions are aborhent. The issue is whether the party is institutionally antisemetic.
The partys complaints and compliance unit was shown to be wholly dysfunctional with the wave of targeted suspensions during the Corbyn campaign. At that time I like many thousands of long term members were suspended without even being notified as to the reasons. When I rang to query my own suspension I was put through to a junior staff member who was working alone to administer the process for thousands. Once the new Corbyn management finally managed to wrest control of the party from clammy hands of the Blairitte dregs, they have had to waste endless hours fending of internal attacks and acts of disloyalty from the same nucleus of MPs who have now betrayed the party and the voters, whilst at the same time trying to reform and expand the back office structure to support the vastly increased membership. Unlike the former managers,  I would hope that whatever the accusation levelled against a member, they should expect a fair process if they are to be subject of expulsion or suspension. What the rightwing want is summary expulsion at the moment of accusation, in line with how they behaved. There do need to be actions, but it is complete bollocks to say nothing was being done, compare the Tories response to their  islamaphobia crisis to that of the Labour Party and then decide who the complicit racists are - Corbyn is not antisemetic he is pro-Palestinian which puts him greatly at odds with the Israeli Government, whilst the right wing of the party is in the main solidly on the side of the Israeli Government even justifying their illegal actions in the occupied territories. This shift of allegiance  at the top has jarred the right wing.  The actions of the Israeli government in continuing to expand the illegal settlements in the Palestinian Territories, and the ongoing suppression of the Palestinian people is not getting the attention it should in part I would suggest, due to new definitions of what constitutes antisemitsm making people afraid to open their mouths for fear of using the wrong phrasing when justifiably criticising the actions of Israel. Antisemitism  is a very real problem as is racism in general throughout society, and the important thing is to ensure there are robust processes to deal with incidents fairly when they arise, which is not at odds with acting decisively. At the same time we need a proper internal enquiry to determine if the party is institutionally antisemetic or not, and that must be thorough and evidence based, not given a predetermined verdict based on a relatively small number of complaints against actual party members. What do they want him to do? Set up a committee to expel members and deprive them of the right to dispute and challenge evidence, agree blindly that the whole party is antisemetic and then step down so those neoliberal traitors can save the day and take back control?
The far right are marching across Europe. Democracy itself is in retreat and a racist bigot rules the the worlds super power, yet chukka and chums would have us believe the real threat to the Jewish community is The Labour Party. The result of all this will be a Tory Government which will help no one, Jew or gentile alike. Idiots like Derek Hatton will always provide good copy for the Tory press. Jon lansman helps not one iota with his posturing and knee jerk comments either. Half a million people deserve a fair and thorough investigation, not trial by media manipulated by some of the most immoral labour politicians since Ramsey McDonald and Oswald Mosley


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## Shechemite (Feb 24, 2019)

And breathe


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## two sheds (Feb 24, 2019)

MadeInBedlam said:


> And breathe



Some good points in there, though.


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 25, 2019)

Are the far right likely to gain power in Britain? Does challenging AS in labour mean not challenging the far right?


----------



## Southlondon (Feb 25, 2019)

MadeInBedlam said:


> And breathe


I am the mentally ill you seek to arm
No amount of tranquillisers and antipsychotics can suppress my frustration and fury at the way this situation has been manipulated. I try to keep clear of political discourse these days for the sake of my health, but this is all or nothing now. Their end goal is to destroy the party my forbears helped build. And otherwise sensible people are being carried along thanks to jon lansman who should know better the old fool


----------



## Southlondon (Feb 25, 2019)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Are the far right likely to gain power in Britain? Does challenging AS in labour mean not challenging the far right?


If they succeed in destroying the Labour Party, do you seriously believe the neoliberal politics of the new ‘central’ grouping will effectively tackle it? Neoliberals themselves must see they’ve failed and are losing ground across Europe to the real fascists. If we don’t offer a real alternative to what has gone before and failed we are up that creek without a paddle


----------



## danny la rouge (Feb 25, 2019)

This is a useful run-through of the elision of anti-Zionism and anti-semitism by Kenan Malik.  There's nothing new in it, but is bears repeating.

The following sections are particularly worth picking up in this context, but it's only a short piece and worth taking as a whole.

"Particularly in sections of the left, anti-Zionism has more and more appropriated, often unrecognised, anti-Semitic tropes."

"There are, in other words, many forms of anti-Zionism, some progressive, some anti-Semitic. What has shifted is that leftwing ideas of anti-Zionism have become increasingly colonised by anti-Semitic forms. The reasons are complex, ranging from evolving notions of ‘anti-imperialism’ to the mainstreaming of conspiracy theories."

"Identity politics has led many to target Jews for being Jews, especially as they are seen as belonging to a group with many privileges to check, and to hold all Jews responsible for the actions of the state of Israel. Many who support the Palestinian cause, including many within the Labour party, seem genuinely unable to distinguish between criticising Israel and sowing hatred against a people."


ANTI-ZIONISM IS NOT ANTI-SEMITISM


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 25, 2019)

There's a weird way that some labour supporters are instrumentalising possible anti-semitism in the party in the same way that those they call blairites etc - they now are using it exactly as the wedge to get them out of the party using organisational disciplinary measures. This has the effect, whether intended or not, of making anti-semitism a side issue, the main focus is not on the undoubted rise in incidents of anti-semitism and the semi-accepted  public expression of it in some political forums/contexts that are tied to labour and, more specifically, corbyn support - but on what this rise _means for the labour party - _not wider society or jewish people in particular.

Similarly, on anti-zionism - anti-zionism simply can and often is anti-semitic today. In the same way as being anti-capitalist or anti-imperialist are now both positions of a big part of the contemporary far-right - the more serious end of it for sure. That is now beyond dispute. And there is then a crossover with the first point where those people with a consistent non-anti-semitic anti-capitalism get angry because they think they are being accused of anti-semitism and then jump into what i outlined in the first para, a defensive overreaction that turns into the mirror of their opponents. Doing a) exactly what their enemies want and b) making the situation worse and making sure it not only doesn't go away but adds more fuel to the fire.

This is about the labour party - but not in the way that a lot of these people seem to think.

(I'm sure Corbyn said that he would be taking lessons on what modern anti-semitism is and does after not being able to see the anti-semitic tropes in that disgusting mural - does anyone know if he did, what form it took and if so, is this sort of education being put in place nationally, not just for MPs but for members).


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 25, 2019)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Paging people more intelligent than myself (of which there are many): copliker danny la rouge butchersapron Serge Forward


Anti-semitism of the right has classically historically seen and portrayed the jew as a threat to national and social integrity undermining old well established customs and traditions, owing loyalty to no one but other jews. Simplistically put, this developed from religious principles into racial principles in the mid-late 19th century (this is contentious though, there is currently an ongoing debate over this - even over whether the religious element was really that strong). Jews were seen as  the worm in the happy national apple, or the plague bacillus to use the nazis preferred version and so had to be curtailed, either through restrictions on say employment or professions or where to live - either way a program of management was required, and that program could be extended or intensified at times of crisis for the state and elite - see the black hundreds being used in russia to keep a divided peasanty/working class and direct frustration away from the state. We know where this management went later on.

Anti-semitism associated with the left developed as capitalism did and was originally tied up via the personal anti-jewism of a few big hitters (Proudhon etc) and later mixed up with the counter-revolutionary conspiracy of the right reaction to the french revolution in France and parts of germany.  It was based on critique of the growing role of money in upending all manner of traditional society and forced proletarianisation and with the consequent deterioration in conditions for the working class and peasantry, which allowed it to develop a veneer of (in today's rubbish term) of hitting upwards, of being on the side of the oppressed. So to be for the poor and downtrodden was to be against the jew. It also allowed them to differentiate themselves from exterminationist or authoritarian right anti-semitism by saying that it was capitalism and its imperatives that needed removing not jews, and once that happened the jewish question would have been answered. That element has never been lost from those anti-anti-semitisms that see themselves as on the left or as anti-capitalist. In fact, as you know there has been regrouping around anti-capitalism and anti-imperialists of the left and right over the last decade.


----------



## Poi E (Feb 25, 2019)

Post should be pinned.


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 25, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> Anti-semitism of the right has classically historically seen and portrayed the jew as a threat to national and social integrity undermining old well established customs and traditions, owing loyalty to no one but other jews. Simplistically put, this developed from religious principles into racial principles in the mid-late 19th century (this is contentious though, there is currently an ongoing debate over this - even over whether the religious element was really that strong). Jews were seen as  the worm in the happy national apple, or the plague bacillus to use the nazis preferred version and so had to be curtailed, either through restrictions on say employment or professions or where to live - either way a program of management was required, and that program could be extended or intensified at times of crisis for the state and elite - see the black hundreds being used in russia to keep a divided peasanty/working class and direct frustration away from the state. We know where this management went later on.
> 
> Anti-semitism associated with the left developed as capitalism did and was originally tied up via the personal anti-jewism of a few big hitters (Proudhon etc) and later mixed up with the counter-revolutionary conspiracy of the right reaction to the french revolution in France and parts of germany.  It was based on critique of the growing role of money in upending all manner of traditional society and forced proletarianisation and with the consequent deterioration in conditions for the working class and peasantry, which allowed it to develop a veneer of (in today's rubbish term) of hitting upwards, of being on the side of the oppressed. So to be for the poor and downtrodden was to be against the jew. It also allowed them to differentiate themselves from exterminationist or authoritarian right anti-semitism by saying that it was capitalism and its imperatives that needed removing not jews, and once that happened the jewish question would have been answered. That element has never been lost from those anti-anti-semitisms that see themselves as on the left or as anti-capitalist. In fact, as you know there has been regrouping around anti-capitalism and anti-imperialists of the left and right over the last decade.



Cheers


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 25, 2019)

What’s your complaint about Jon Lansman Southlondon ?


----------



## editor (Feb 25, 2019)

*merged


----------



## William of Walworth (Feb 25, 2019)

Thanks to danny la rouge for posting a link to that article by Kenan Malik. It was in the Observer too, so on a day that the Observer with all it's TiG arselicking was pissing me off much more even than usual  , something sensible on another page was really welcome. I was going to post a link myself last night but I forgot


----------



## killer b (Feb 25, 2019)

It's time to stop buying The Observer, william.


----------



## teqniq (Feb 25, 2019)

What is this 'buy' you speak of?


----------



## killer b (Feb 25, 2019)

It's what William does to the observer on a sunday.


----------



## William of Walworth (Feb 25, 2019)

I'm going to have to stop myself at some point, but I do like reading "the papers" in the pub of a weekend. (we both do in fact)
As much for sport, reviews, general news, etc., as for politics though, tbf to myself ....

But The Observer on Sunday is a *lot* worse (politically)  than The Guardian on Saturday, especially right now, and that's saying a fair bit


----------



## William of Walworth (Feb 25, 2019)

More importantly though, that Kenan Malik stuff was genuinely good. My actual point  but apols for diversion ...


----------



## chilango (Feb 27, 2019)

Am. I right in remembering Chris Williamson being highlighted before?

He's in the news this morning.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 27, 2019)

chilango said:


> Am. I right in remembering Chris Williamson being highlighted before?
> 
> He's in the news this morning.


Is he indeed? What for?


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 27, 2019)

William of Walworth said:


> I'm going to have to stop myself at some point, but I do like reading "the papers" in the pub of a weekend. (we both do in fact)
> As much for sport, reviews, general news, etc., as for politics though, tbf to myself ....
> 
> But The Observer on Sunday is a *lot* worse (politically)  than The Guardian on Saturday, especially right now, and that's saying a fair bit


The observer on any day is worse than the guardian, which is saying something


----------



## chilango (Feb 27, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Is he indeed? What for?


Labour too apologetic over anti-Semitism - MP


----------



## rekil (Feb 27, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Is he indeed? What for?


Labour too apologetic over anti-Semitism - MP



chilango said:


> Am. I right in remembering Chris Williamson being highlighted before?
> 
> He's in the news this morning.


Yeah see Beeley thread about their attendance at the Levellers loonfest last year.


----------



## Dogsauce (Feb 27, 2019)

They’d be better off apologising less and doing more, like putting Williamson in the fucking bin for starters.


----------



## killer b (Feb 27, 2019)

He also had the great idea of booking a room in parliament yesterday to screen Jackie Walker's _Witchhunt _film. 

A maniac and a wrecker. He should be shown the door.


----------



## LDC (Feb 27, 2019)

Williamson is a politically dodgy prick in a number of areas, be good to see him ruined. Be surprised if someone doesn't drag out all the other things he's commented on given his appearance over this in the media today.


----------



## danny la rouge (Feb 27, 2019)

chilango said:


> Am. I right in remembering Chris Williamson being highlighted before?
> 
> He's in the news this morning.


Yes, defending anti-semites, defending Atzmon, defending Beeley, retweeting anti-semites, and so on. Skating all over the edge. He’s been in the spotlight a few times.


----------



## chilango (Feb 27, 2019)

Opportunity for Corbyn to make an example of him?


----------



## redsquirrel (Feb 27, 2019)

He's a prick and a total fucking liability. The LP definitely need to develop some strategy of removing/sidelining him.


----------



## danny la rouge (Feb 27, 2019)

chilango said:


> Opportunity for Corbyn to make an example of him?


I very much doubt Corbyn will, though.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 27, 2019)

He's one of corbyn's mates .


----------



## LDC (Feb 27, 2019)

Novara's 'Derby bad man', Ash Sarkar's mate too ffs.


----------



## killer b (Feb 27, 2019)

I have seen some distancing by Novara types since last night FWIW


----------



## Kaka Tim (Feb 27, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> education being put in place nationally, not just for MPs but for members.



yes - this is something that absolutely needs to happen. I remember when frogwomen started flagging up anti-semitic tropes within conspiracy theory on here some years ago. Like - i suspect -  many others I had not clocked this - but she very much convinced me over time. 
As a result, when someone posted a picture of that shitty mural on the JC4PM page a few years ago I clocked it for what it was straight away - in exactly the way that corbyn (and other people on the page) hadn't. (this was maybe 18  months before corbyns support for the mural artist  came out).


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 27, 2019)

If they don't do it after the first one then any later distancing is surely worse and certainly more revealing. It says both that we don't think the issue is real, that he hasn't done anything wrong with this series of shitty interventions really and that they'll also happily throw him under the bus for the good of their own reputation though.

Edit: novara and those types.


----------



## LDC (Feb 27, 2019)

killer b said:


> I have seen some distancing by Novara types since last night FWIW



Got a link?


----------



## danny la rouge (Feb 27, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> He's one of corbyn's mates .


And this is why Corbyn is so compromised on the issue. His milieu is steeped in this stuff.


----------



## killer b (Feb 27, 2019)

Michael Walker on twitter: 

I mentioned it more as evidence of Williamson's increasing toxicity rather than in defence of Novara fwiw


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 27, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> And this is why Corbyn is so compromised on the issue. His milieu is steeped in this stuff.


he's not the messiah, he's a very naughty boy


----------



## Kaka Tim (Feb 27, 2019)

my fb and twitter is full of stuff defending williamson and decrying the "witchhunt".


----------



## sunnysidedown (Feb 27, 2019)

Kaka Tim said:


> my fb and twitter is full of stuff defending williamson and decrying the "witchhunt".



I've just had a gander through the replies to that MW tweet killer b posted above. The left is indeed a busted flush.


----------



## chilango (Feb 27, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> And this is why Corbyn is so compromised on the issue. His milieu is steeped in this stuff.



Yep. This is a good example.


----------



## killer b (Feb 27, 2019)

sunnysidedown said:


> I've just had a gander through the replies to that MW tweet killer b posted above. The left is indeed a busted flush.


Anyone attempting to inject any nuance into the argument instantly has a crowd of shrieking denialists commenting. Such is the nature of all political discussions in the new age of social media - it looks fucking rotten, although it's very difficult to know how representative those gobbing off are, or how to shut them up.


----------



## LDC (Feb 27, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> And this is why Corbyn is so compromised on the issue. His milieu is steeped in this stuff.



Totally, as are some significant elements of the extra-parliamentary/activist left. It's all over the shop with the wider anti-imperialism campism, health/eco related conspiracy theories etc.


----------



## chilango (Feb 27, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Totally, as are some significant elements of the extra-parliamentary/activist left. It's all over the shop with the wider anti-imperialism campism, health/eco related conspiracy theories etc.



Yep. 

Whilst it's Labour's problem today, it could be ours tomorrow (and probably was yesterday tbf).


----------



## LDC (Feb 27, 2019)

chilango said:


> Yep.
> 
> Whilst it's Labour's problem today, it could be ours tomorrow (and probably was yesterday tbf).



It's a real struggle to know how to deal with tbh, there's a whole scene that is willfully blind and responds hysterically to it when it comes as a discussion.


----------



## danny la rouge (Feb 27, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Totally, as are some significant elements of the extra-parliamentary/activist left. It's all over the shop with the wider anti-imperialism campism, health/eco related conspiracy theories etc.


Indeed. We need to call it out in our circles too.


----------



## tim (Feb 27, 2019)

Southlondon said:


> I will defend the Labour Party until I die, as the alternative is a Tory-led Government as we know, and that will benefit no one except the rich as we know. However, unconditional does not equate to uncritical. My criticism of the Labour Party at present is that the Party structure didn’t act to suspend the treacherous right wing detractors with the same ruthless efficiency that the blairitte dregs displayed when the same faces tried every which way to scupper Corbyns election as leader. It is total naivety to believe they haven’t been biding their time waiting for a suitable issue to arise which they could attach themselves to for maximum effect, There were plenty of just opportunities to suspend them and other defectors in waiting for insubordination and breach of standards, but alas the left are too soft compared to the ruthless stalinistic-efficiency of the right wingers.
> As for the antisemitism issue, in a party of half a million there will as a matter of course be members who’s views and opinions are aborhent. The issue is whether the party is institutionally antisemetic.
> The partys complaints and compliance unit was shown to be wholly dysfunctional with the wave of targeted suspensions during the Corbyn campaign. At that time I like many thousands of long term members were suspended without even being notified as to the reasons. When I rang to query my own suspension I was put through to a junior staff member who was working alone to administer the process for thousands. Once the new Corbyn management finally managed to wrest control of the party from clammy hands of the Blairitte dregs, they have had to waste endless hours fending of internal attacks and acts of disloyalty from the same nucleus of MPs who have now betrayed the party and the voters, whilst at the same time trying to reform and expand the back office structure to support the vastly increased membership. Unlike the former managers,  I would hope that whatever the accusation levelled against a member, they should expect a fair process if they are to be subject of expulsion or suspension. What the rightwing want is summary expulsion at the moment of accusation, in line with how they behaved. There do need to be actions, but it is complete bollocks to say nothing was being done, compare the Tories response to their  islamaphobia crisis to that of the Labour Party and then decide who the complicit racists are - Corbyn is not antisemetic he is pro-Palestinian which puts him greatly at odds with the Israeli Government, whilst the right wing of the party is in the main solidly on the side of the Israeli Government even justifying their illegal actions in the occupied territories. This shift of allegiance  at the top has jarred the right wing.  The actions of the Israeli government in continuing to expand the illegal settlements in the Palestinian Territories, and the ongoing suppression of the Palestinian people is not getting the attention it should in part I would suggest, due to new definitions of what constitutes antisemitsm making people afraid to open their mouths for fear of using the wrong phrasing when justifiably criticising the actions of Israel. Antisemitism  is a very real problem as is racism in general throughout society, and the important thing is to ensure there are robust processes to deal with incidents fairly when they arise, which is not at odds with acting decisively. At the same time we need a proper internal enquiry to determine if the party is institutionally antisemetic or not, and that must be thorough and evidence based, not given a predetermined verdict based on a relatively small number of complaints against actual party members. What do they want him to do? Set up a committee to expel members and deprive them of the right to dispute and challenge evidence, agree blindly that the whole party is antisemetic and then step down so those neoliberal traitors can save the day and take back control?
> The far right are marching across Europe. Democracy itself is in retreat and a racist bigot rules the the worlds super power, yet chukka and chums would have us believe the real threat to the Jewish community is The Labour Party. The result of all this will be a Tory Government which will help no one, Jew or gentile alike. Idiots like Derek Hatton will always provide good copy for the Tory press. Jon lansman helps not one iota with his posturing and knee jerk comments either. Half a million people deserve a fair and thorough investigation, not trial by media manipulated by some of the most immoral labour politicians since Ramsey McDonald and Oswald Mosley



Do you know what paragraphs are?


----------



## cantsin (Feb 27, 2019)

sunnysidedown said:


> I've just had a gander through the replies to that MW tweet killer b posted above. The left is indeed a busted flush.



Yep, the left is busted cos of literally 10's of cranks on twitter ranting vs more sensible left, thanks for your enlightening contribution on this


----------



## chilango (Feb 27, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Indeed. We need to call it out in our circles too.



You've got a circle?

Lucky bastard.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 27, 2019)

Southlondon said:


> I will defend the Labour Party until I die, as the alternative is a Tory-led Government as we know, and that will benefit no one except the rich as we know.


tbh i don't suppose your defence of the labour party will do anything to prevent the formation of another tory government. and we can see what the labour party's like from what it's doing all across london even as i type - demolishing social housing and replacing it with yuppie flats. that what you defend? catch yourself on.


----------



## danny la rouge (Feb 27, 2019)

chilango said:


> You've got a circle?
> 
> Lucky bastard.


Not so much 

Anyone want to join “jazz-loving anarchist communists who are a bit operaismo-ish, a bit council communism-ish, aren’t at all happy with the statist left’s stance on Assad, and like neither the May Brexit Plan, the neoconservative ERC’s hard-on for Singapore, nor, frankly, the EU”?


----------



## kebabking (Feb 27, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Not so much
> 
> Anyone want to join “jazz-loving anarchist communists who are a bit operaismo-ish, a bit council communism-ish, aren’t at all happy with the statist left’s stance on Assad, and like neither the May Brexit Plan, the neoconservative ERC’s hard-on for Singapore, nor, frankly, the EU”?



There's definitely an Alloa section, but i'm not sure if the the Stirling group is still going - it collapsed to a semi-circle after that unfortunate business with the petty cash and the Christmas party.


----------



## chilango (Feb 27, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Not so much
> 
> Anyone want to join “jazz-loving anarchist communists who are a bit operaismo-ish, a bit council communism-ish, aren’t at all happy with the statist left’s stance on Assad, and like neither the May Brexit Plan, the neoconservative ERC’s hard-on for Singapore, nor, frankly, the EU”?



Nah. I don't like jazz.


----------



## LDC (Feb 27, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Anyone want to join “jazz-loving anarchist communists who are a bit operaismo-ish, a bit council communism-ish, aren’t at all happy with the statist left’s stance on Assad, and like neither the May Brexit Plan, the neoconservative ERC’s hard-on for Singapore, nor, frankly, the EU”?



I'm splitting over the jazz issue, ffs, it's shit.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 27, 2019)

Hope it won't be regarded as anti-semitic to out these anti-Jazz monsters as philistines?


----------



## sunnysidedown (Feb 27, 2019)

cantsin said:


> Yep, the left is busted cos of literally 10's of cranks on twitter ranting vs more sensible left, thanks for your enlightening contribution on this



there's loads of them, they are real, and they make up a sizable part of the left milieu.

your mates Novara have been pushing Williamson for a while. Ash _'what are we going to do with the white working class'_ Sarkar being particularly vocal in his support. It was clear from day one he was a head banger.

Rotten to the core.


----------



## chilango (Feb 27, 2019)

On a serious note. Would it be worth a thread for keeping track of where this shit pops up outside and to the left of Labour?

I know we have the Beeley thread, but that should stay focussed.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 27, 2019)

How much of this is a Labour problem (yes I know it's there) and how much a Facebook/Twitter problem? Facebook and Twitter seem to let anti-semites and racists and fascists spread their lies.  Some of them seem to be Labour people (and should be thrown out).


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 27, 2019)

chilango said:


> On a serious note. Would it be worth a thread for keeping track of where this shit pops up outside and to the left of Labour?
> 
> I know we have the Beeley thread, but that should stay focussed.


you could call it 'not the beeley thread'


----------



## cantsin (Feb 27, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Yes, defending anti-semites, defending Atzmon, defending Beeley, retweeting anti-semites, and so on. Skating all over the edge. He’s been in the spotlight a few times.



For accuracies sake, CW retracted the  'defence  of Atzmon' w/ apology as soon as is he was pulled up on it ( have no idea how he knew nothing about Atzmon's past / present ) .

He's never 'defended Beeley' , so much as tweeted sweet nothings at her after the shitty Levellers festie or whatever ( he's never rowed back on this - will guess Beeley was just a on a massive anti - US / anti Imperialist, anti bombing / anti western reporting of Syria jag at the festie panel - am sure even the most conscientious of Beeley watchers will accept she never flaunts her AS in public)

Re : Sheffield speech : there's a groundswell of anti Lansman sentiment amongst the crankier end of the base at the moment, due to JL going so big on the pro Berger, and then the Graun on Monday, saying AS is ' widespread across LP' - which was overstating, according to every measurable metric available ( all cases : processed / reported / pending etc ) - am guessing Sheff Momentum aren't on the pro JL side of things, and doubt CW is - the claim that there's over emphasis / over exaggeration / weaponisation is a perfectly reasonable one, it's just coming from CW, with his apparent track record, right in the eye of this latest storm ... 

The ' defend Jackie Walker' stuff seems like a waste of time at best, or deliberate baiting at worst imo.

e


----------



## danny la rouge (Feb 27, 2019)

chilango said:


> On a serious note. Would it be worth a thread for keeping track of where this shit pops up outside and to the left of Labour?
> 
> I know we have the Beeley thread, but that should stay focussed.


Very good idea, yes.


----------



## chilango (Feb 27, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Very good idea, yes.



Done.


----------



## Cid (Feb 27, 2019)

chilango said:


> Yep.
> 
> Whilst it's Labour's problem today, it could be ours tomorrow (and probably was yesterday tbf).



It’s always been a problem... Not just in pro Palestine/stwc etc type groups either. There is just an element of conspiracy theorism/anti-semitism  that runs through the left. Not that I have a great deal of experience, but in the few things I’ve been involved with (well, turned up to) it’s always there. Whether that’s London squat stuff or protests. 

I think I kind of let it slide until I started reading frogwoman etc on here. But it is a hellishly tricky problem... I mean I don’t think it’s in the nature of left groups to just kick people out. There’s always some twat who tries to dominate discussion, and invariably turns out to have dodgy views on x subject. But you don’t just turn them out... maybe we should.

With that said it does seem to be particularly strong in the kind of London university/post studenty left. I’d still say it’s a (small) minority who are actually anti Semitic, but that isn’t really the issue... they’re vocal, the conviction and voice of the true believer, and the miopic focus that goes with it. For me that links to what’s disappointing about the labour response. It could have been acknowledged and addressed, to at least some extent... probably wouldn’t have put off the press etc, but would at least show insight and adaptability.


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 27, 2019)

Chris Williamson exhibit no. 197744733753

https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/...rted-jewish-mp-were-white-privileged-1.480704


----------



## rekil (Feb 27, 2019)

Peter Tatchell said:
			
		

> There was a vote at the Syria debate at the Beautiful Days festival: Who agrees with Peter Ford (who took the Vanessa Beeley line, including claiming that the Syria democracy movement was "mythical") and who agrees with Peter Tatchell? Chris Williamson MP voted in favour of Peter Ford’s analysis, not mine.


It's perfectly obvious that Williamson has been a fan of Beeley for a while and is not in the least bit bothered about her involvement with the French far right, the conspiraloon swamp and her Assad regime role. Why else would he go out of his way to turn up in a tent with her and her band of nutters and get a pic for posterity.


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 27, 2019)

Williamson got a big hug from Lavery. Hope he feels better soon


----------



## treelover (Feb 27, 2019)

chilango said:


> ...and reluctant as I am to dignify this duplicate thread with further responses, it's worth a reminder that much anti-Semitism in the Labour Party isn't some semi-mystical moral failing but comes from some quite specific failings of elements of the Left.
> 
> One is the hobbyist enthusiasm for overseas causes, that has led to "over enthusiasm" re Palestine. The general absence of class based analysis has allowed a certain void to be filled with an empty stridence that then in turn is too easily filled by anti-Semitism.
> 
> ...



Excellent incisive post, should be sent to Sheffield Momentum, which seems to be hijacked, people like key organisers like Max not now involved,


----------



## treelover (Feb 27, 2019)

cantsin said:


> In my own small way, have been trying to challenge Lab AS over the least month in partic -  see response to Chilango post for some deets
> 
> And honestly, the likes of Peter Kyle, and the multitude of cynical weaponisers within the PLP. are just helping fuel the cranks in the ranks, it's all so blatant, it undermines (eg) the anti AS positions that Momentum are trying to take of late



Some of Momentum, maybe not Sheffield.


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 27, 2019)

cantsin said:


> The anti AS positions that Momentum are trying to take of late



Quite


----------



## cantsin (Feb 27, 2019)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Chris Williamson exhibit no. 197744733753
> 
> https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/...rted-jewish-mp-were-white-privileged-1.480704



got to say, probably havent looked in too deeply, but found the Wadsworth debacle less clear cut than the Jackie Walker one


----------



## treelover (Feb 27, 2019)

William of Walworth said:


> I'm going to have to stop myself at some point, but I do like reading "the papers" in the pub of a weekend. (we both do in fact)
> As much for sport, reviews, general news, etc., as for politics though, tbf to myself ....
> 
> But The Observer on Sunday is a *lot* worse (politically)  than The Guardian on Saturday, especially right now, and that's saying a fair bit



Toby Helm is appalling, has it in for Corbyn.


----------



## belboid (Feb 27, 2019)

chilango said:


> Labour too apologetic over anti-Semitism - MP



I was at this, it wasn't a bad meeting, bar the loon from the CPGB. The vast majority of the meeting was perfectly sensible, and, indeed, even the bits being highlighted aren't that bad. Denying that there is a 'problem' with anti-semitism doesn't mean he didn't recognise that there are anti-semites who must be held to account and expelled within it, it just rejects the mainstream narrative that the party is 'institutionally anti-semitic.'   Doing a little jog and celebrating the departure of some of the most right-wing MP's may not exactly be great PR, but it's also.... so fucking what?

He - and many others on the left - don't get the conspiraloonery angle, and they certainly need to learn and fucking sharpish - but, the reaction of Williamson is mostly, imo, down to wanting to defend decent people being lambasted as anti-semites when they're not.  He is an 'attack dog' to help boost the morale of those driven to despair by the right.

Sheffield Momentum is actually very Lansmanny, about a quarter/third of the group walked out over a stitch up to exclude those suspended from LP membership for any reason. It's generally a bit rubbish, locally, and just has self-congratulatory meetings, discreetly run by the awful Socialist Action (via soft and manipulable frontspeople, their usual tactic).


----------



## belboid (Feb 27, 2019)

treelover said:


> Excellent incisive post, should be sent to Sheffield Momentum, which seems to be hijacked, people like key organisers like Max not now involved,


When did you last go to a Sheffield Momentum meeting?  Not that I'm blaming you for not doing, just saying you are completely wrong about who is in charge of it. It does F all to oppose expulsions, says f all about,  well, most things actually, it tried to pretend there are no arguments about anything and just promotes Stand Up To Racism type dullness (as well as the occasional decent meeting). The Williamson meeting is part of his ongoing democratisation tour which has been going everywhere.


----------



## belboid (Feb 27, 2019)

cantsin said:


> got to say, probably haven't looked in too deeply, but found the Wadsworth debacle less clear cut than the Jackie Walker one


Wadsworth's expulsion was a joke. The man's a raging egotist, and a soft separatist, but that isn't a very good reason to expel him. The little cohort that walked in with Smeeth did look like utter wankers.


----------



## belboid (Feb 27, 2019)

Excuse me as I try not to ramble too much....


One of the things that gets forgotten in the ongoing storm around AS, which goes some way to explaining peoples blindness to it, is the recent history of witch-hunting of the left within the party. When Corbyn first stood, and the supporting members category was created, the Compliance Unit spent a vast amount of time finding any excuse to exclude left-wingers, often for the most spurious and tendentious reasons. Having signed a nomination form for an opposing candidate (tho, oddly enough, it was okay if that candidate was a tory!), calling Owen Smith a cunt (tho, oddly again, it was okay to call Owen Jones a cunt), being generally a bit gobby and irritating.

At that point, despite digging through years’ worth of social media posts, I don’t think anyone was excluded for anti-semitism, it certainly wasn’t a significant part of he narrative.  As late as the end of 2016 Chukka Umunna and leading lights from the JLM were saying they had _never_ seen any AS within the party. And they had undoubtedly seen Corbyn and knew of his ‘pro-Hamas; speeches. The only people claiming Labour had a problem with anti-semitism then were right-wingers like Stephen Pollard, and GnasherJew, who were, undoubtedly, overwhelmingly concerned about supporting Israel, not maltreatment of jewish people in the UK. When there was an AS debate in the Commons, it was dominated by those Tories, who, in at least one case, changed the date of the AS attack on his wife to make it appear to have happened under Corbyn’s leadership (although, even then the abuse wasn’t actually made by someone known to be a LP member!). The idea that these tories seriously cared about anti-semitism was a bit of a joke, and it absolutely definitely couldn’t be said that any of them believed the Labour Party should be held to a higher standard than the party they supported.  This goes even more for the recent recruit to the cause – David ‘friend of the EDL & Herut supporter’ Collier. He has submitted more complaints than Margaret Hodge did.

So the attacks rang hollow, and didn’t really gain any traction amongst the wider public.

That changed with that fucking mural. Something that Corbyn undoubtedly should have noticed and picked up on, and that he was entirely rightly held to account for. The one ‘good’ thing to come out of that was that a fair few more people wised up to the extent of conspiraloonery and it’s connection to anti-semitism. It was only after that, that the likes of DC etc went back through many more people’s posts and found those Rothschild posts, and crude posts about Israel and excessive use of the word Zionism.

There is no doubt, even amongst those who have signed up to Labour Against the Witch-hunt, that there are a small number of people who are explicitly anti-semitic, and who should be expelled. But, for the most part, those who are complained of have done nothing worse than be crude. Replacing the DWP logo with ‘Arbeit Mach Frei’ is not the most politically astute thing to do, but it’s been a mainstay of disability politics for years. Passionately supporting Palestine is not anti-semitic even if the writer does like to overuse the word Zionist – and this is especially true for those old enough to remember ’67 and ’73, and the reason why Israel became the most boycotted country in the UK, along with apartheid South Africa and Pinochet’s Chile (which was first recognised by… Israel). Pointing out that the Israeli state does find ways to funnel money to various MP's and uses Mossad anod other tools of the state to undermine others, isn't anti-semitic in and of itself. Education and political argument is what is needed to deal with such people, not screaming anti-semite at them. It’s (almost) funny), this board has a long history of denouncing the SWP’s way of tackling racism by shouting ‘racist’ at people with ‘legitimate concerns’ over immigration etc, but it’s good politics to shout ‘anti-semite’ at someone who misuses a word?

If I weren’t in the LAW (unofficial) facebook group, the only examples of anti-semitic comments I  have seen would consist of one local member posting one Rothschild meme (which he was taken up on) and one person in the Sheffield Momentum group, who, it turned out, wasn’t in either Sheffield or the Labour Party. He was, immediately and without opposition, kicked from the group. Within the LAW group – which now includes a lot of people being investigated for AS - there are another two, maybe three, who I think should be fucked right off, and quite a few more (tho no more than a couple of dozen or so) who really should learn to moderate their language and keep their ego’s in check. Unless those people are, like Livingstone, leading members, they should be reprimanded and educated, not expelled.

All that said, it is sad and pathetic to see a couple of trot micro-sects refusing to deny there is any issue at all, and refusing to challenge any conspiraloonery or recognise the anti-semitic roots of certain statements, and even defending the ‘right’ (free speech bollox) to quote Icke. But they are a miniscule section of the membership who hold no influence over anything, thankfully.


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 27, 2019)

‘Replacing the DWP sign with Arbeit Macht Frei isn’t politically astute’. 

Funny how so many individuals who use nazi imagery as ‘protest’ (including the ‘disability’ movement) turn out to be antisemites though isn’t it?


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 27, 2019)

For example:

HuffPost is now part of Oath (“Labour activist cites ‘gas chambers’ at 2015 conference”)

Turns out she has some er interesting views on the Jooz

Labour activist embroiled in antisemitic Facebook probe


----------



## chilango (Feb 27, 2019)

belboid said:


> Excuse me as I try not to ramble too much....[snip]
> .



...all that said. If it is just a handful of idiots surely, surely, they could just be fucked off sharpish?


----------



## killer b (Feb 27, 2019)

belboid said:


> It’s (almost) funny), this board has a long history of denouncing the SWP’s way of tackling racism by shouting ‘racist’ at people with ‘legitimate concerns’ over immigration etc, but it’s good politics to shout ‘anti-semite’ at someone who misuses a word?


I don't really see this happening.


----------



## belboid (Feb 27, 2019)

MadeInBedlam said:


> ‘Replacing the DWP sign with Arbeit Macht Frei isn’t politically astute’.
> 
> Funny how so many individuals who use nazi imagery as ‘protest’ (including the ‘disability’ movement) turn out to be antisemites though isn’t it?


not in my experience of it, no. I wholly accept my experience is limited, but I haven't seen anything beyond the usual folk who call anyone to the right of Blair a nazi.  treelover would have more knowledge of the local scene, I don't know if he has seen any such evidence.


----------



## belboid (Feb 27, 2019)

chilango said:


> ...all that said. If it is just a handful of idiots surely, surely, they could just be fucked off sharpish?


Yes, I have no problem with the handful being fucked off.


----------



## belboid (Feb 27, 2019)

killer b said:


> I don't really see this happening.


Really? There are vast numbers of complaints about people 'bullying', eg, Berger by doing nothing more than calling her a zionist.


----------



## killer b (Feb 27, 2019)

belboid said:


> Really? There are vast numbers of complaints about people 'bullying', eg, Berger by doing nothing more than calling her a zionist.


on this board?


----------



## killer b (Feb 27, 2019)

Oh I see.

I don't think many people here think those attacking Labour over antisemitism are doing good politics. Indeed, the wagon circling & denial we've seen as a result of the attacks vindicates those who criticised the SWP and the like for using these tactics.


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 27, 2019)

belboid said:


> not in my experience of it, no. I wholly accept my experience is limited, but I haven't seen anything beyond the usual folk who call anyone to the right of Blair a nazi.  treelover would have more knowledge of the local scene, I don't know if he has seen any such evidence.



I’ve provided evidence of this in the post below the one you’ve quoted. Further to this, from your friends at GJ

 

And another one: Stock Photo - Roy Bard of Mental Health Resistance Network makes a Nazi salute  to show his opinion of  forced back to work treatment for mental health sufferers to be given in the new

Also Roy Bard


And Tony Gosling:

 


Gosling’s antisemitism is no secret


----------



## belboid (Feb 27, 2019)

killer b said:


> Oh I see.
> 
> I don't think many people here think those attacking Labour over antisemitism are doing good politics. Indeed, the wagon circling & denial we've seen as a result of the attacks vindicates those who criticised the SWP and the like for using these tactics.


Precisely. 

We haven't really done individual cases on here, except for the very few 'famous' ones, in no small part because we cant tell if a random SM post is part of a more general viewpoint of that person, or even if its genuine. But we cant really talk about the extent of AS within the LP without recognising that many of the complaints are so limited in scope.


----------



## belboid (Feb 27, 2019)

MadeInBedlam said:


> I’ve provided evidence of this in the post below the one you’ve quoted. Further to this, from your friends at GJ
> 
> <snip>


You quoted one person who is in the Labour Party.

Now you're including Tony fucking Gosling? A far-right cunt who everyone knows is a far-right cunt? Ands some loon from the anti-psychiatry movement, a movement that was, while having some good and valid points to make, incredibly fucked up and all over the shop. I'm not really sure what you think this proves, especially in relation to AS in the Labour Party.


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 27, 2019)

belboid said:


> You quoted one person who is in the Labour Party.
> 
> Now you're including Tony fucking Gosling? A far-right cunt who everyone knows is a far-right cunt? Ands some loon from the anti-psychiatry movement, a movement that was, while having some good and valid points to make, incredibly fucked up and all over the shop. I'm not really sure what you think this proves, especially in relation to AS in the Labour Party.



You brought up the Arbeit mach Frei slogan, and how it’s used by the disability movement. I’ve shown you how the use of such rhetoric isn’t just daft, but functions to normalise antisemitism. 

Oh and Bard isn’t an antipsychiatrist


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 27, 2019)

DPAC are courted by the Labour Party and campaign for a corbyn government. 

If the LP is serious about tackling antisemitism, they (amongst other things) need to act sharpish in providing training and support to disablilty groups in identifying antisemitism, and they need to make it very clear that they won’t work with groups that tolerate antisemitism


----------



## belboid (Feb 27, 2019)

MadeInBedlam said:


> You brought up the Arbeit mach Frei slogan, and how it’s used by the disability movement. I’ve shown you how the use of such rhetoric isn’t just daft, but functions to normalise antisemitism.
> 
> Oh and Bard isn’t an antipsychiatrist


I think you'd need to do more than quote a couple of loons (one of whom is a well known fascist) to show such usage is done to normalise AS. I mean, IDS did actually say "work actually helps free people" so you can see why that was picked up!


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 27, 2019)

And yet antisemites get a free pass in such movements (and like you say, it’s not your ‘scene’ so you don’t be having to deal with this endlessly)


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 27, 2019)

Williamson suspended from the LP


----------



## killer b (Feb 27, 2019)

Williamson has been suspended after not-being-suspended this afternoon. Tactical genius from the Corbyn camp there.


----------



## danny la rouge (Feb 27, 2019)

Clear, decisive message.


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 27, 2019)

Owen Jones popping his head above the parapet after the battle has finished


----------



## killer b (Feb 27, 2019)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Owen Jones popping his head above the parapet after the battle has finished


I don't think so, he wrote a long thread about it this afternoon. 

If you must give us hourly updates about what's happening on twitter, at least try and make them accurate.


----------



## belboid (Feb 27, 2019)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Owen Jones popping his head above the parapet after the battle has finished


he's been criticising Williamson all day


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 27, 2019)

killer b said:


> I don't think so, he wrote a long thread about it this afternoon.
> 
> If you must give us hourly updates about what's happening on twitter, at least try and make them accurate.



Ah so Jones was calling for his suspension before the decision was reached? Accuracy and all


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 27, 2019)

(He wasn’t, but yeah he was *criticising* him)


----------



## killer b (Feb 27, 2019)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Ah so Jones was calling for his suspension before the decision was reached? Accuracy and all


I don't know - you didn't say that though. You said he had his head below the parapet when pretty much all he's posted about is antisemitism all day, while hundreds of cranks fill his mentions with bile. You can hardly say he's been silent on the topic, or avoiding taking the flak.


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 27, 2019)

Jones said suspending Williamson was the right thing - after Williamson was suspended, and having spent all day er not calling for Williamson’s suspension (hence my ‘parapet’ comment)


----------



## belboid (Feb 27, 2019)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Jones said suspending Williamson was the right thing - after Williamson was suspended, and having spent all day er not calling for Williamson’s suspension (hence my ‘parapet’ comment)


same parapet as you then, as you didn't explicitly call for Williamson to be suspended either.


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 27, 2019)

belboid said:


> same parapet as you then, as you didn't explicitly call for Williamson to be suspended either.



You’re mental

Although tbf, your comment here is no less daft then your claim I was ‘doing almost exactly the same thing’ as calling someone a self-hating Jew.


----------



## belboid (Feb 27, 2019)

MadeInBedlam said:


> You’re mental
> 
> Although tbf, your comment here is no less daft then your claim I was ‘doing almost exactly the same thing’ as calling someone a self-hating Jew.


just trying to hold you to your own standards.


----------



## Mr Moose (Feb 27, 2019)

MadeInBedlam said:


> You brought up the Arbeit mach Frei slogan, and how it’s used by the disability movement. I’ve shown you how the use of such rhetoric isn’t just daft, but functions to normalise antisemitism.
> 
> Oh and Bard isn’t an antipsychiatrist



C’mon the idea that the disability movement, protesting the harsh, suicide inducing, treatment some have been subjected to, by likening this to the treatment of disabled people by the Nazis ‘functions to normalise antisemitism’ doesn’t hold up. 

The Nazis exterminated disabled people. Discrimination against disabled people now is also a systematic oppression.


----------



## Mr Moose (Feb 27, 2019)

killer b said:


> Williamson has been suspended after not-being-suspended this afternoon. Tactical genius from the Corbyn camp there.



To be fair Labour said earlier that he was ‘under investigation’. 

To move from that to suspension in an afternoon is quite a phenomenal display of speed for the Labour Party.


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 27, 2019)

Mr Moose said:


> C’mon the idea that the disability movement, protesting the harsh, suicide inducing, treatment some have been subjected to, by likening this to the treatment of disabled people by the Nazis ‘functions to normalise antisemitism’ doesn’t hold up.
> 
> The Nazis exterminated disabled people. Discrimination against disabled people now is also a systematic oppression.



The Nazis rounded up disabled people from institutions in order to exterminate them. The ‘disabled movement’ (by which you mean a small group of activists, there isn’t one homegenous ‘movement’) in this instance is one that laments the ending of institutionalisation. 

Using nazi imagery to express your point isn’t inherently antisemitic (I haven’t said it is), but the groups/activists that do so just so happen to have a er ‘problematic’ attitude towards AS, and they don’t just see cuts and benefit sanctions as being similar in effect to nazi policies, they argue that austerity is part of an underlying and deliberate ‘endgame eugenicist’ agenda. 

You do understand that not all disabled people have the same politics?


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 27, 2019)

belboid said:


> just trying to hold you to your own standards.



You’re monitoring my social media? A bit weird that.


----------



## killer b (Feb 27, 2019)

Mr Moose said:


> To be fair Labour said earlier that he was ‘under investigation’.
> 
> To move from that to suspension in an afternoon is quite a phenomenal display of speed for the Labour Party.


He should have been suspended when the investigation was announced - it was obviously going to happen by the end of the day anyway so why let it dominate an entire day's news cycle? Clowns.


----------



## Mr Moose (Feb 27, 2019)

MadeInBedlam said:


> You do understand that not all disabled people have the same politics?



Yes of course and that’s exactly it. You could make those analogies without being any more racist than the writers of Father Ted were when they had him do a Nazi salute.

I don’t disagree that those individuals are dodgy for a moment though.


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 27, 2019)

Mr Moose said:


> Yes of course and that’s exactly it. You could make those analogies without being any more racist than the writers of Father Ted were when they had him do a Nazi salute.
> 
> I don’t disagree that those individuals are dodgy for a moment though.



You ‘could’, but that’s not what happens it practice. And the analogies would still be moronic


----------



## belboid (Feb 27, 2019)

MadeInBedlam said:


> You’re monitoring my social media? A bit weird that.


On here, Where you've been discussing him all day.  Jones just didn't explicitly say 'suspend him.'  So what? Neither did you. Whilst discussing him and his actions.


----------



## Mr Moose (Feb 27, 2019)

killer b said:


> He should have been suspended when the investigation was announced - it was obviously going to happen by the end of the day anyway so why let it dominate an entire day's news cycle? Clowns.



Haters going to hate. The big problem is that the man at the top remains a lightening rod for this.

However quickly he/the executive act do you think this can possibly be stopped until his scalp is delivered? 

Serious question, because you cannot prevent political parties being too slow with their admin and PR for a baying press.


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 27, 2019)

belboid said:


> On here, Where you've been discussing him all day.  Jones just didn't explicitly say 'suspend him.'  So what? Neither did you. Whilst discussing him and his actions.



Apart from the fact I’m not a member of the commentariat, I haven’t publcially announced how wonderful it is that he’s been suspended, conveniently after the fact.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 27, 2019)

killer b said:


> He should have been suspended when the investigation was announced - it was obviously going to happen by the end of the day anyway so why let it dominate an entire day's news cycle? Clowns.



Isn't that a bit like having the guilty judgement before the trial?


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 27, 2019)

two sheds said:


> Isn't that a bit like having the guilty judgement before the trial?


Kb a great fan of Alice in wonderland


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 27, 2019)

two sheds said:


> Isn't that a bit like having the guilty judgement before the trial?



The investigation found he had a ‘pattern of behaviour’. The LP already knew (even before the momentum event) about his pattern of behavior.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 27, 2019)

cantsin said:


> come along to a CLP and tell us all about it, you cynical, know nothing, no mark w*nker
> 
> or maybe go along to Wavertree CLP, share your  " Hillsborough - it was the drunken scousers own fault " theories, and take it from there



IF he gets out of the front door alive.


----------



## Mr Moose (Feb 27, 2019)

two sheds said:


> Isn't that a bit like having the guilty judgement before the trial?



No, suspension is just what it is, albeit if you are suspended it no doubt feels like a punishment.

However, it merely indicates that there are sufficient concerns to mean that suspension is prudent for all parties including possibly the suspended individual.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 27, 2019)

cantsin said:


> why bother starting a new thread eh ? we know exactly where you're coming from / what you're about, always have, you can't help yourself...



I've explained the difference between anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism to Sasaferato more times than I care to count, but he prefers the certainties of political ignorance masquerading as fair comment to anything like an informed approach.


----------



## killer b (Feb 27, 2019)

Mr Moose said:


> Haters going to hate. The big problem is that the man at the top remains a lightening rod for this.
> 
> However quickly he/the executive act do you think this can possibly be stopped until his scalp is delivered?
> 
> Serious question, because you cannot prevent political parties being too slow with their admin and PR for a baying press.


I think if the leadership took a different approach it could certainly be calmed down: the biggest obstacle, the reason it comes unstuck every time, and the reason they keep poking at the open wound, is that Corbyn is still - really - in denial that there's a problem.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 27, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> So all those Jews who are anti-zionist are in fact anti-semitic  catch yourself on



Only when we're not being self-hating, Judaeophobic and anti-Israel.


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 27, 2019)

ViolentPanda said:


> Only when we're not being self-hating, Judaeophobic and anti-Israel.



I prefer ‘yekke’ myself, more stylish


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 27, 2019)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> Yeah i’d stick with Israeli government. I’ve just come off 4 nights but if I mind on in the morning I think there’s a few good links on why using certain terms might be a bit dodge.



A better formulation is "the state of Israel", as that encompasses not just the politicians, but the apparatus too.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 27, 2019)

I think I'll stick with the zionist entity


----------



## treelover (Feb 27, 2019)

Israeli State?


----------



## Mr Moose (Feb 27, 2019)

killer b said:


> I think if the leadership took a different approach it could certainly be calmed down: the biggest obstacle, the reason it comes unstuck every time, and the reason they keep poking at the open wound, is that Corbyn is still - really - in denial that there's a problem.



Getting close to home though with Williamson.


----------



## danny la rouge (Feb 27, 2019)

treelover said:


> Israeli State?


That’s what I’ve alighted on. It’s accurate and precise.


----------



## Mr Moose (Feb 27, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> I think I'll stick with the zionist entity



Fine and for your main course and pudding?


----------



## killer b (Feb 27, 2019)

Mr Moose said:


> Getting close to home though with Williamson.


Reports (from admittedly hostile sources) suggest it was he who initially blocked the suspension this afternoon, hence the mealy-mouthed original announcement: I don't know if that's true, but it seems likely. And if it isn't true, it's his own fault that hostile sources can brief that kind of stuff and sound plausible. 

Either way it looks to me like he's only done this as a result of internal pressure today, it doesn't recognise the work he personally needs to do to lance it. I don't know if he has it in him to do the work tbh.


----------



## belboid (Feb 27, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> That’s what I’ve alighted on. It’s accurate and precise.


a bit neutral though. 

I _prefer _racist, colonial settler-state, but it's a bit long and probably makes half its readers go 'eh?', so would go for the apartheid Israeli state


----------



## Geri (Feb 27, 2019)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Williamson suspended from the LP


 
This is the best news I've heard all week.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 27, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Kb a great fan of Alice in wonderland



I was looking for the Queen of Hearts quote but couldn't find it


----------



## danny la rouge (Feb 27, 2019)

belboid said:


> a bit neutral though.
> 
> I _prefer _racist, colonial settler-state, but it's a bit long and probably makes half its readers go 'eh?', so would go for the apartheid Israeli state


I usually make my disapproval known in my criticism of the particular actions/policies I’m highlighting. But apartheid state is perfectly accurate.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 27, 2019)

Mr Moose said:


> Fine and for your main course and pudding?


Fish and chips, and tiramisu


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 27, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Fish and chips, and tiramisu



Guacamole not posh enough for you?


----------



## 19force8 (Feb 27, 2019)

ViolentPanda said:


> Only when we're not being self-hating, Judaeophobic and anti-Israel.


and kapos, you forgot kapos.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 27, 2019)

two sheds said:


> Isn't that a bit like having the guilty judgement before the trial?



In Soviet Union, guilty judgement is always before trial.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 27, 2019)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Guacamole not posh enough for you?


I do like guacamole but not with either fish and chips or tiramusu. Or with the zionist entity


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 27, 2019)

Mr Moose said:


> Fine and for your main course and pudding?



Beef, and a stake in the kidney pudding.


----------



## tim (Feb 27, 2019)

two sheds said:


> Isn't that a bit like having the guilty judgement before the trial?



Suspension is different from expulsion. Anyway, only teenagers from Tower Hamlets are found guilty before trial.


----------



## Mr Moose (Feb 27, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> I do like guacamole but not with either fish and chips or tiramusu. Or with the zionist entity



Guacamole and fish and chips? That would be the dish of choice for Peter Mandelson.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 27, 2019)

Mr Moose said:


> Guacamole and fish and chips? That would be the dish of choice for Peter Mandelson.


He'd ruin it by adding lashings of tomato ketchup to it all. A full bottle *at least*


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 27, 2019)

And salt before the vinegar. Philistine that he is.


----------



## tim (Feb 27, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> I think I'll stick with the zionist entity



I have some concerns about the Zionist entity's comportment in Judea and Samaria


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 27, 2019)

tim said:


> I have some concerns about the Zionist entity's comportment in Judea and Samaria


And i some concerns about their behaviour in palestine


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 27, 2019)

Huge if true etc 

Jeremy Corbyn accused of blocking suspension of Chris Williamson amid antisemitism row


----------



## rekil (Feb 28, 2019)

cantsin said:


> am sure even the most conscientious of Beeley watchers will accept she never flaunts her AS in public)


This is palpably untrue. Following Beeley's emergence the very first thing I noticed about her was her appearances alongside professional antisemites. Her twitter is full of antisemitism. Her gibbering 21stcenturywire nutter site is full of it. Why else would Icke, Kollerstrom, Atzmon etc get platforms on there. Later on I found that she described Alain Soral as being the 'light at the end of the tunnel' on there which explained pretty much everything. Her youtube subscriptions are full of it. Her pathetic blog is full of it. Its very first entry shrieks about how the _"zionist entity has infected our entire world infrastructure and is poisoning our minds, hearts and souls."_ Most of her loonery was eventually addressed by various media outlets so Williamson was no doubt aware of it, but either like a lot of the left he just didn't care because her Syria conspiracy theories appealed to him, or else he has a good deal in common with her generally. 

The novara people were warned multiple times that their pathetic Williamson cheerleading would blow up in their smug faces. Sarkar even appeared with him last month at some debate or other.


----------



## teqniq (Feb 28, 2019)

The truth about Seumas Milne, Jeremy Corbyn and the new McCarthyism


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 28, 2019)

teqniq said:


> The truth about Seumas Milne, Jeremy Corbyn and the new McCarthyism


very good article


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 1, 2019)

good video challenging anti-semitism on the left from momentum


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 1, 2019)

I wonder what the MP for Tel Aviv thinks of it


----------



## rekil (Mar 1, 2019)

When you've got these vermin backing you up instead of being your natural enemy maybe it's time for a rethink. To put it mildly.


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 1, 2019)

That time was some time ago.


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 1, 2019)

This article from almost a year ago covers Beeley’s scumbaggery 

Labour can be Jo Cox’s party or Chris Williamson’s – it cannot be both


----------



## rekil (Mar 1, 2019)

Most of it was pinched from us tbf. It's probably also fair to note that as much as for any other reason Oz 'yes I'm a capitalist' Katerji instrumentalises this issue to have a scrappydoesque go at Labour and the 'far left' and to push rotten Libdem ideology.


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 1, 2019)

copliker said:


> Most of it was pinched from us tbf.



Was ever thus. 

My point was that Beeley was known to be vermin


----------



## Humberto (Mar 1, 2019)

It has always been a misconception that the people of Israel rather than the state is a bully. That these people aren't working class, dominated by hostile regional neighbours. They are exploited like the rest of us: send us to work, into battle, to carry their shit around. They belong to the Anglo/American (not particulary Jewish) establishment who fuck people over as always. And we know how that always goes. Don't forget we are only 60 odd years after they were systematically murdered for the good of the Reich. I hope people don't need me to tell them that.

The fact that this servant/vassal situation is slimed all over by dumbwits isn't testament to the validity of conspiracism. In fact I implore you that it won't have that effect. Which is a grim thing to have to implore. Israel and its consequences belong to America, not the other way round.

Why can't we find solidarity? The Zionist state apparatus (remember at the behest of primarily Anglo-American establishment/capitalists) is a sickness rooted in Christian Evangelism, which (I realise that is a detour) contains the American electorate in an oath which they never swore to and are not bound by. Its a culture, an understanding and it is rotten to the core. To 'sin' is to disagree with the unjust and deceitful agreements of your political masters, when logic and reality tells us that they are a clan (what was that again?) who made the agreement for their own ends.

So there is no prejudice, you can 'intermarriage'. Some people are fools (it's the correct word when you are gulled like that by David 'fucking' Icke and that most unholy bellend, Alex 'fucking $10 million a year' Jones). THEY are the problem.


----------



## cantsin (Mar 1, 2019)

copliker said:


> This is palpably untrue. Following Beeley's emergence the very first thing I noticed about her was her appearances alongside professional antisemites. Her twitter is full of antisemitism. Her gibbering 21stcenturywire nutter site is full of it. Why else would Icke, Kollerstrom, Atzmon etc get platforms on there. Later on I found that she described Alain Soral as being the 'light at the end of the tunnel' on there which explained pretty much everything. Her youtube subscriptions are full of it. Her pathetic blog is full of it. Its very first entry shrieks about how the _"zionist entity has infected our entire world infrastructure and is poisoning our minds, hearts and souls."_ Most of her loonery was eventually addressed by various media outlets so Williamson was no doubt aware of it, but either like a lot of the left he just didn't care because her Syria conspiracy theories appealed to him, or else he has a good deal in common with her generally.
> 
> The novara people were warned multiple times that their pathetic Williamson cheerleading would blow up in their smug faces. Sarkar even appeared with him last month at some debate or other.



Sorry , meant on ‘ public stages / irl / festivals / etc ‘ - ie : looked at the Marx Memorial talk of hers, pure anti imperialist / anti west spiel , can’t imagine her parading her AS underbelly  on a stage


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Mar 2, 2019)

ViolentPanda said:


> A better formulation is "the state of Israel", as that encompasses not just the politicians, but the apparatus too.


Cheers- And I think “the state” is my general terminology wi Israel and beyond, though I admit general inarticulacy like all the time


----------



## Humberto (Mar 3, 2019)

I wish they would more arduously address this.They must hear their own party, or become its enemy. Everyone one has enemies. We must decide who they are. God has an enemy. Some people (not here more specifically) need to stand up and be counted. Why shouldn't they? If you resist 'evil' (or however you want to describe it) it will run away. That is the space where we all breathe.

They knew some things in the past that some don't know now. For instance: life is more than about self-preservation. Many still know that of course.

Yes they DO hate you and band together with all their might to destroy you. Hyperbole aside, that is basically how it is. But they are all to a man/woman, raging bellends. Which they can't hide. Designs of wickedness lead to openly provable violence and injustice. That is where we come in. 'We' being those willing to rightfully do them with the ultimately correct aim of insurrection.

Call out false professions of (the correct word escapes me) sanctification. Of those who speak with forked tongues always. Who wound, kill and devour you and yours, and what belongs to you and yours. Who get better at it with every electoral capitulation cycle. Evil doctrines, rooted in bitterness, that depend on hurting some and poisoning others against them are an offence to us all.


----------



## Riklet (Mar 3, 2019)

What the fuck are you talking about Humberto? What a off-topic ramble.

Regarding Chris Williamson - do people reckon he'll stay suspended? I do feel that a lot of Corbyn's naivety is now coming back to bite.  Btw.. what are people's main objections to Williamson here as I havent followed him on social media or anything. Had he got form? edit: just found stuff like his support of Beeley online, pretty shocking. 

Regarding the use of the term 'the Zionist entity' it really comes across incredibly dodgy in 2019, in the current political climate, in my opinion.


----------



## DownwardDog (Mar 3, 2019)

Riklet said:


> Regarding the use of the term 'the Zionist entity' it really comes across incredibly dodgy in 2019, in the current political climate, in my opinion.



The only people I've ever seen use it are Pickman's and a newsreader on Saudi TV.


----------



## LDC (Mar 3, 2019)

Riklet said:


> Regarding Chris Williamson - do people reckon he'll stay suspended?...
> 
> Regarding the use of the term 'the Zionist entity' it really comes across incredibly dodgy in 2019, in the current political climate, in my opinion.



I'm surprised more of his worse politics aren't coming out more publicly tbh. He's basically one step removed from Holocaust deniers with some of the friends he keeps. I think there will be a real struggle with the LP about his suspension and what the next step is.

And yes, I agree, saying the Israeli State works fine, anyone starts talking about Zionists and Zionism and I'm automatically quite suspicious of what they're going to come out with next.


----------



## LDC (Mar 3, 2019)

DownwardDog said:


> The only people I've ever seen use it are Pickman's and a newsreader on Saudi TV.



Have you ever seen them both in the same place though?


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 3, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> And yes, I agree, saying the Israeli State works fine, anyone starts talking about Zionists and Zionism and I'm automatically quite suspicious of what they're going to come out with next.


Agreed. It shouldn’t, but by association it just does. Best to steer clear of the term if you don’t want to appear a loon.


----------



## William of Walworth (Mar 3, 2019)

There've been a fair few mentions of last year's Beautiful Days festival. I was there and at one debate where Williamson and Tatchell were present. (I don't remember Beeley at all though). Will get back to this when I have more time and when I've found/checked the fest programme.​


----------



## Serge Forward (Mar 3, 2019)

From my experience, most people who talk about anti zionism don't have much understanding of what zionism is or isn't and treat it either as a monolithic entity or, at worst, simple dog whistle anti semitism.


----------



## 19force8 (Mar 3, 2019)

Meanwhile, in other news Mark Meecham lands job presenting "It's me or the dog!" for BBC Scotland.


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 3, 2019)

19force8 said:


> Meanwhile, in other news Mark Meecham lands job presenting "It's me or the dog!" for BBC Scotland.



Do keep up

BBC CANCEL 'Nazi pug' man Mark Meechan's appearance on panel show after backlash


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 3, 2019)

19force8 said:


> Meanwhile, in other news Mark Meecham lands job presenting "It's me or the dog!" for BBC Scotland.



What point are you trying to make here?


----------



## tim (Mar 3, 2019)

belboid said:


> a bit neutral though.
> 
> I _prefer _racist, colonial settler-state, but it's a bit long and probably makes half its readers go 'eh?', so would go for the apartheid Israeli state



How would you describe Pakistan created in the same year as Israel as a Muslim homeland? It's creation led to the massacre and expulsion of Hindus and Sikhs; and the expulsion and massacre of Musilms from independent India. 

Many of the "settler colonists" you mention were refugees too many from  the Shoah, others were Jews expelled from Arab states in the wake of the creation of the "entity". Hardly your typical colonists.

 As the Asia Bibi case and the persecution of groups such as the Amhadiyya shows minorities in the Apartheid Pakistani state/the Islamic Entity don't fare so well.


----------



## 19force8 (Mar 3, 2019)

MadeInBedlam said:


> What point are you trying to make here?


Why don't you tell me.

While you're at it maybe you can explain:


MadeInBedlam said:


> I wonder what the MP for Tel Aviv thinks of it


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 3, 2019)

19force8 said:


> Why don't you tell me.
> 
> While you're at it maybe you can explain:



I don’t know what point you’re trying to make re the Nazi dog wanker 

‘MP for Tel Aviv’ was a dog-whistle comment about Ellman (and endorsed by M Walker). 

Do keep up.


----------



## 19force8 (Mar 3, 2019)

MadeInBedlam said:


> ‘MP for Tel Aviv’ was a dog-whistle comment about Ellman (and endorsed by M Walker).
> 
> Do keep up.


And your point was?


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 3, 2019)

19force8 said:


> And your point was?



The fairly obvious point that Walker is a hypocrite and is only making that momentum video because he can see that there are political consequences with defending antisemitism. 

What’s your point about Nazi dog man?


----------



## 19force8 (Mar 3, 2019)

MadeInBedlam said:


> The fairly obvious point that Walker is a hypocrite and is only making that momentum video because he can see that there are political consequences with defending antisemitism.


Way too gnomic for me. Why didn't you just say that?


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 3, 2019)

19force8 said:


> Way too gnomic for me. Why didn't you just say that?



Because not everyone is as thick as you. 

Why did you bring Meecham into a conversation about Labour AS?


----------



## 19force8 (Mar 3, 2019)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Why did you bring Meecham into a conversation about Labour AS?


I didn't, I brought the BBC into the conversation.


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 3, 2019)

19force8 said:


> I didn't, I brought the BBC into the conversation.





19force8 said:


> Meanwhile, in other news Mark Meecham lands job presenting "It's me or the dog!" for BBC Scotland.



Of course. 

Any chance of explaining your point?


----------



## 19force8 (Mar 3, 2019)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Of course.
> 
> Any chance of explaining your point?


None whatsoever


----------



## treelover (Mar 4, 2019)

I'm not going to link to it, but a member of Momentum here, has a image of a Palestianian child holding hands with a child concentation camp victim as her FB status, 

problematic?


----------



## kebabking (Mar 4, 2019)

treelover said:


> I'm not going to link to it, but a member of Momentum here, has a image of a Palestianian child holding hands with a child concentation camp victim as her FB status,
> 
> problematic?



Yes, because it's an indicator of that person's obsession with _Jews. _Not suffering of children in refugee camps, but Jews.

They could have chosen an image of a child in a Syrian refugee camp, or a Royhinga camp in Bangladesh, or in Mali, or Chad, or any of fifty horrific situations around the world - but they always end up going to the one that involves the Jewish state.

It's _possible _that the myopic obsession with  Israel within a section for the last 50 years while completely ignoring Syria, Chechnya, Xinjiang and all the rest is entirely coincidental to it being full of Jews, but unless you're very rich, I wouldn't put a large wager on it.


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 4, 2019)

And those  who are obsessed with the Jooz are so often the same who defend Assad, Maduro and so on (hence Beeley, Williamson, Blumenthal, Galloway, Topple etc)

Whilst of course the liberal anti-racism of writers such as Katerji isn’t the answer, i think  (and perhaps I’m being naive), the readiness of Arab writers to challenge left antisemtism has a lot to do with the convergence of left antisemtism and left apologia for ‘anti-imperialist’ tyrants.

I’m rambling a bit here. Anyway, I enjoyed  this article

Is Corbynism anti-Semitic?


----------



## likesfish (Mar 4, 2019)

There's also the point that any criticism of Israel gets you labeled as an antisemite the Israeli lobby is huge.
 Hamas and Hezbollah are evil terrorists who kill civilians while the IDF are saintly warriors who do their utmost to avoid civilian casualties while killing way more civilians


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 4, 2019)

Dear god


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 4, 2019)

treelover said:


> I'm not going to link to it, but a member of Momentum here, has a image of a Palestianian child holding hands with a child concentation camp victim as her FB status,
> 
> problematic?


a member of momentum here?


----------



## TopCat (Mar 4, 2019)

likesfish said:


> There's also the point that any criticism of Israel gets you labeled as an antisemite the Israeli lobby is huge.
> Hamas and Hezbollah are evil terrorists who kill civilians while the IDF are saintly warriors who do their utmost to avoid civilian casualties while killing way more civilians


The IDF are paragons of progressive behaviour. Say this or else.


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 4, 2019)

Or else?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 4, 2019)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Or else?


or else


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 4, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> or else



Off to bed without supper?


----------



## TopCat (Mar 4, 2019)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Or else?


Or else you get decried as anti Semitic.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 4, 2019)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Off to bed without supper?


if you're lucky


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 4, 2019)

TopCat said:


> Or else you get decried as anti Semitic.



Early night for you


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 4, 2019)

likesfish said:


> the Israeli lobby is huge.


This is the sort of thing.


----------



## belboid (Mar 4, 2019)

kebabking said:


> Yes, because it's an indicator of that person's obsession with _Jews. _Not suffering of children in refugee camps, but Jews.
> 
> They could have chosen an image of a child in a Syrian refugee camp, or a Royhinga camp in Bangladesh, or in Mali, or Chad, or any of fifty horrific situations around the world - but they always end up going to the one that involves the Jewish state.
> 
> It's _possible _that the myopic obsession with  Israel within a section for the last 50 years while completely ignoring Syria, Chechnya, Xinjiang and all the rest is entirely coincidental to it being full of Jews, but unless you're very rich, I wouldn't put a large wager on it.


what a pile of absurd dogshit.

99% of those interested in Palestine do so because for the last _seventy years_ apartheid Israel has based its existence on the dispossession of the palestinian people, it has expanded militarily to destroy any possible chance of a two state solution, and has been the single most important factor in the destabilisation of the middle east.  And it did all this thanks, in no small part, to the British state.  You know, where we live.

Part of the whole AS farrago is about trying to stop perfectly sound criticism of Israel - hence the shite IHRA definition & examples, Jess Philips saying you cant say 'racist Israeli state' etc etc. Bollocks to that.

Israel is, supposedly, a part of the western liberal democracies, not dictatorships like Syria, China or Chechnya. So it is supposed to live up to 'higher standards.'  But it doesn't, far from it.


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 4, 2019)

I had the sheer pleasure over the weekend of being denounced by a fellow disability activist as an ‘agent of Israel’ who ‘changes what you  say when your controllers tell you’. Fun times.


----------



## likesfish (Mar 4, 2019)

Conservative Friends of Israel - Wikipedia
Labour Friends of Israel - Wikipedia
  theres a bit of truth to it.


----------



## belboid (Mar 4, 2019)

MadeInBedlam said:


> I had the sheer pleasure over the weekend of being denounced by a fellow disability activist as an ‘agent of Israel’ who ‘changes what you  say when your controllers tell you’. Fun times.


That's shit.  But, as you have pointed out yourself, fuck all to do with the Labour Party.


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 4, 2019)

belboid said:


> That's shit.  But, as you have pointed out yourself, fuck all to do with the Labour Party.



Was a Labour Party member - who had been reported 6 months ago


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Mar 4, 2019)

Moderating here, I'm apparently both a hasbara shill and a dedicated anti-semite, depending on who gets banned.


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 4, 2019)

And given that labour are presenting themselves as the tribune of disabled people, they need to take some responsibility in challenging the (understandable) paranoia and conspiracism which drives so much AS amongst those at the bottom of society.


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## Shechemite (Mar 4, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Moderating here, I'm apparently both a hasbara shill and a dedicated anti-semite, depending on who gets banned.



Perfect cover


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 4, 2019)

likesfish said:


> Conservative Friends of Israel - Wikipedia
> Labour Friends of Israel - Wikipedia
> theres a bit of truth to it.


_They’re everywhere.  They control everything.  Alan Sugar’s one, you know. And Gweneth Paltrow. _


----------



## belboid (Mar 4, 2019)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Was a Labour Party member - who had been reported 6 months ago


Right, so someone who was complained of and removed. Proof that the Labour Party ignores anti-semitism then


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 4, 2019)

belboid said:


> Right, so someone who was complained of and removed. Proof that the Labour Party ignores anti-semitism then



Why do you think they were removed

‘Was a labour member’ as in it was a labour member flinging out racist abuse


----------



## belboid (Mar 4, 2019)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Why do you think they were removed


I am guessing, from your opaque posts, that they were removed for anti-semitism.  Which would rather imply the system was working.


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 4, 2019)

belboid said:


> I am guessing, from your opaque posts, that they were removed for anti-semitism.  Which would rather imply the system was working.



They haven’t been. 

Not sure what’s opaque about my posts, but you’re always welcome to ask for clarity (rather than going on about ‘smears’ and ‘self hating Jews’)


----------



## belboid (Mar 4, 2019)

MadeInBedlam said:


> They haven’t been.
> 
> Not sure what’s opaque about my posts, but you’re always welcome to ask for clarity (rather than going on about ‘smears’ and ‘self hating Jews’)


So what were they removed for? Oh, I see you've edited above. So they ARE an LP member???  I can't even tell now, your posts seem contradictory.


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 4, 2019)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Was a Labour Party member - who had been reported 6 months ago



I didn’t claim they were removed, that was your fantasy.


----------



## belboid (Mar 4, 2019)

MadeInBedlam said:


> I didn’t claim they were removed, that was your fantasy.


No, that's your use of words, 'was' not 'is'



MadeInBedlam said:


> Was a Labour Party member - who had been reported 6 months ago


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 4, 2019)

belboid said:


> No, that's your use of words, 'was' not 'is'



Oh for fucks sake get a hobby or something.


----------



## belboid (Mar 4, 2019)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Oh for fucks sake get a hobby or something.


or you could just write  more clearly.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 4, 2019)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Oh for fucks sake get a hobby or something.


this is belboid's hobby


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## Combustible (Mar 4, 2019)

kebabking said:


> and all the rest is entirely coincidental to it being full of Jews, but unless you're very rich, I wouldn't put a large wager on it.



There's lot's of reasons why the Palestinian cause may get disproportionate attention from the left which are not due to antisemitism. Some of those might be good reasons, that Israel has been able to act the way it has because of the active support of Western states, and therefore people in the West are more able to at least somewhat influence their governments to stop enabling the oppression of the Palestinians. Other reasons might be less valid, such as based on a crude anti-imperialism, or the fact that campaigning on issues such as Palestine have become part of 'a lefty culture', and is simply something people are expected to do if they are in left-wing groups regardless of whether it makes a difference to anything. I am not saying  of course  that there are not people motivated by hatred by Jews, or that the overwhelming attention on Israel hasn't helped foster antisemitism and conspiracy theories.

It was also probably  true that apartheid South Africa received disproportionate attention from left-wing groups, but I don't think many people besides apartheid's defenders would have accepted the argument that this must be due to racism against white South Africans.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 4, 2019)

Combustible said:


> It was also probably  true that apartheid South Africa received disproportionate attention from left-wing groups, but I don't think many people besides apartheid's defenders would have accepted the argument that this must be due to racism against white South Africans.


apartheid south africa received a great deal of coverage from such left-wing organs as the bbc


----------



## likesfish (Mar 4, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> _They’re everywhere.  They control everything.  Alan Sugar’s one, you know. And Gweneth Paltrow. _



 oh for ffs when Israel actually gives cash to a load of MPs its not actually a conspiracy theory to go hang on a moment?
Labour MP Siobhain Mcdonagh: “to be anti-capitalism is to be anti-semitic”

think Israel gets panned because they are seen and try to portray themselves as part of the West rather than strange barbarous others
 egypt tortures murders people or the congo well what can you expect?
 israel has gay pride and women in bikinis on the beach so you cant be the bad guys


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Mar 4, 2019)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Perfect cover


You get cheques from both sides too apparently. Don't seem to have got any myself I have to say.


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 4, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> You get cheques from both sides too apparently. Don't seem to have got any myself I have to say.



You would say that


----------



## Combustible (Mar 4, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> apartheid south africa received a great deal of coverage from such left-wing organs as the bbc



I was referring to the disproportionate amount of effort spent by left wing groups campaigning against apartheid, as opposed to other issues. But I agree that the BBC and other western media gave the issue a lot of coverage, they also give much more coverage to Israel/Palestine than they do to war in the DR Congo. Presumably most people wouldn't say the reason for this must be antisemitism or anti-Arab racism.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 4, 2019)

Combustible said:


> I was referring to the disproportionate amount of effort spent by left wing groups campaigning against apartheid


you do know the zionist entity and apartheid south africa were allies, right?

Brothers in arms - Israel's secret pact with Pretoria

so it's hardly surprising if groups campaigning against apartheid had something to say about the zionist entity.

you must have known this, it's no secret, it's been widely known for many, many years


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 4, 2019)

likesfish said:


> oh for ffs when Israel actually gives cash to a load of MPs its not actually a conspiracy theory to go hang on a moment?
> Labour MP Siobhain Mcdonagh: “to be anti-capitalism is to be anti-semitic”
> 
> think Israel gets panned because they are seen and try to portray themselves as part of the West rather than strange barbarous others
> ...


I can’t follow what you’re saying here, to be honest. What I was picking up on was first your saying “the Israeli lobby is huge” in the context of a discussion about “the myopic obsession with Israel” (kebabking). This seemed to be an example of just what was being talked about.

You responded by saying “there’s a bit of truth to it”. (Straight after an ironic post from someone joking about doing  what their “controllers tell” them). Offering links to wiki pages on LFI and CFI.

I’m not sure exactly what points you think you’re making (partly because I find it hard to read your posts), but what you’re saying skates very close to the idea that Jews (albeit using the term “the Isreali lobby”) are uniquely seeking undue political power in the UK and internationally, perhaps undermining British democratic and cultural mores. The focus on “a load of cash” seems very like the tropes that see Jews-as-a-group as controlling finances and using it in the interests of “their kind”, in an underhanded way, and with outcomes that are harmful.

These types of tropes, even when used without realising it, reinforce and perpetuate antisemitism.

There are ways of criticising the actions and policies of the Israeli state without falling into these traps.


----------



## Combustible (Mar 4, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> you do know the zionist entity and apartheid south africa were allies, right?



I did know yes, but I don't see how that contradicts anything in what I posted.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 4, 2019)

Combustible said:


> I did know yes, but I don't see how that contradicts anything in what I posted.


no, i don't suppose you would


----------



## happie chappie (Mar 4, 2019)

> 99% of those interested in Palestine do so because for the last _seventy years_ apartheid Israel has based its existence of the palestinian people, it has expanded militarily to destroy any possible chance of a two state solution, and has been the single most important factor in the destabilisation of the middle east.  And it did all this thanks, in no small part, to the British state.



The issue isn’t about people “interested” in Palestine (I’m not sure where the 99% figure came from by the way) but the near obsession with Israel with some on the left to the seeming exclusion of anything and everything else.

As for Israel being the “the single most important factor in the destabilisation of the middle east” it’s now being given a good run for its money by Iran what with it supporting or fighting proxy wars in Yemen, Syria and Lebanon (as well as meddling in Iraq) and provoking Saudi Arabia along the way. Hardly a force for good in the region.

It’s a wonder they have enough time to develop a nuclear weapon, oppress women, publicly execute people, persecute religious minorities, and criminalise gay people but somehow they manage it.

But the silence on the left about Iran is deafening by its absence - certainly compared to the (often entirely justified) criticism of Israel.


----------



## Serge Forward (Mar 4, 2019)

Aye, there's the rub. And that absence makes the "anti zionism not anti semitism" claim of many just a tad suspect.


----------



## Cloo (Mar 4, 2019)

For those interested in how Jews feel about this, here's a piece that comes the closest to describing how I feel (and had not heretofore been able to describe well): European Jews Don't Need to Be Defined by Anti-Semitism - The Atlantic

That there is increased AS, it is bad, but it's not Nazi-style existential-threat AS. It is, as the author says, almost more analogous to 19th century AS where your word or your allegiance to thingsis doubted because you're a Jew. I feel my co-religionists do everyone a disservice (I'm looking at you, Jewish Chronicle) when they spout the line 'This is like Nazi Germany' or 'I don't feel safe in Britain anymore because of Jeremy Corbyn', but there's no doubt something is rotten. I feel an increasing sense, for example, in discussions of Israel or indeed of Labour, that as a Jew I am expected to 'declare' myself as the right kind of Jew before we can talk about AS. I have no especial interest in getting rid of Corbyn on the point of AS - more on the issue of him being a lousy leader and agonisingly failing to score in an open goal against this useless government because it so happens he agrees with Brexit albeit for different reasons to them. I do have an interest in AS being weaponised by people who don't give a shit about Jews, and it's happening in the States too, where AS is being used to attack progressive causes, who often have the feature of being critical of Israel (and yes, may contain antisemites, but that doesn't render everything else they stand for valueless)


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 4, 2019)

Cloo said:


> For those interested in how Jews feel about this, here's a piece that comes the closest to describing how I feel (and had not heretofore been able to describe well): European Jews Don't Need to Be Defined by Anti-Semitism - The Atlantic
> 
> That there is increased AS, it is bad, but it's not Nazi-style existential-threat AS. It is, as the author says, almost more analogous to 19th century AS where your word or your allegiance to thingsis doubted because you're a Jew. I feel my co-religionists do everyone a disservice (I'm looking at you, Jewish Chronicle) when they spout the line 'This is like Nazi Germany' or 'I don't feel safe in Britain anymore because of Jeremy Corbyn', but there's no doubt something is rotten. I feel an increasing sense, for example, in discussions of Israel or indeed of Labour, that as a Jew I am expected to 'declare' myself as the right kind of Jew before we can talk about AS. I have no especial interest in getting rid of Corbyn on the point of AS - more on the issue of him being a lousy leader and agonisingly failing to score in an open goal against this useless government because it so happens he agrees with Brexit albeit for different reasons to them. I do have an interest in AS being weaponised by people who don't give a shit about Jews, and it's happening in the States too, where AS is being used to attack progressive causes, who often have the feature of being critical of Israel (and yes, may contain antisemites, but that doesn't render everything else they stand for valueless)



#148



> who often have the feature of being critical of Israel (and yes, may contain antisemites, but that doesn't render everything else they stand for valueless)


----------



## kebabking (Mar 4, 2019)

Serge Forward said:


> Aye, there's the rub. And that absence makes the "anti zionism not anti semitism" claim of many just a tad suspect.



That, for me, is the swinger: there are upwards of a million people in Chinese 're-education' camps in Xingjiang province alone, while the rest of the population in that benighted province are _required _to own smartphones with an embedded app that notes every single search, text, message and call they make and transmits than information to the Chinese government. 

The cynical might wonder whether the would-be saviours of the oppressed could hold forth for _hours _on Xingjiang in the way they do on Palestine, or if they get quite so excited about Chinese consumer electronics in their homes as they do about Israeli Oranges in Tesco.

The cynical might further wonder if the _true _driver of obsessive support for Palestinians is rather more about the identity of the oppressor than it is about the condition of the oppressed....


----------



## belboid (Mar 4, 2019)

happie chappie said:


> The issue isn’t about people “interested” in Palestine (I’m not sure where the 99% figure came from by the way) but the near obsession with Israel with some on the left to the seeming exclusion of anything and everything else.
> 
> As for Israel being the “the single most important factor in the destabilisation of the middle east” it’s now being given a good run for its money by Iran what with it supporting or fighting proxy wars in Yemen, Syria and Lebanon (as well as meddling in Iraq) and provoking Saudi Arabia along the way. Hardly a force for good in the region.
> 
> ...


I must admit, I have met almost no one who is actually _obsessed _by Palestine to the exclusion of all else. I see a few more now, what with the internet n all, but hardly any irl. Is it given more prominence than other, possibly worse, appaling regimes? Yes, for all the reasons stated above - notably its meant to be 'one of us' - _that _is the key difference. 

It is true that Iran (which Israel strongly, if discreetly, supported during the Iran-Iraq war) and Saudi have been getting more and more important over the last twenty years, as they have built themselves up into regional powers - a process greatly helped of course by the invasion of Iraq in 2003 which also completely destabilised the region. The UK government doesn't sell arms to Iran though, and campaigns against sales to Saudi have become prominent too.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Mar 4, 2019)

Hold on a second. We don't have to get into whataboutery here. The situation in Palestine is fucking terrible and has been going on for decades so is going to have built up a lot of personal history and support - and quite apart from the "Jewish lobby" bullshit it _is_ geopolitically significant outside of that.


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 4, 2019)

Re Jewish apologists for antisemitism 

https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/...evealed-she-talked-about-jew-process-1.480981

Bird was one of the signatories of the ‘Jews love Jezza’ letter


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 4, 2019)

Self-hating jews now is it?

Still, good that you found an unbiased source.


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 4, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> Self-hating jews now is it?
> 
> Still, good that you found an unbiased source.



Oh do fuck off


----------



## happie chappie (Mar 4, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Hold on a second. We don't have to get into whataboutery here. The situation in Palestine is fucking terrible and has been going on for decades so is going to have built up a lot of personal history and support - and quite apart from the "Jewish lobby" bullshit it _is_ geopolitically significant outside of that.



What’s the problem with “whataboutery” (or, to give it it’s more accurate name pointing out hypocrisy and double standards)?

Or are you saying we should never compare the actions of (in this case nation states) and at least be able to question the motives of some people who readily point out the sins of one state and remain resolutely silent about the sins of another.


----------



## Duncan2 (Mar 4, 2019)

Not much seems to get done about the fucking terrible situation in Palestine.


----------



## belboid (Mar 4, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> Self-hating jews now is it?
> 
> Still, good that you found an unbiased source.


The full speech puts the phrase in a rather different context to that implied.  Nice implication from the JC that Bird is lying about being Jewish, too.

"JVL is calling for disciplinary hearings to be paused until a due process has been established based on principles of natural justice. What I call Jew process."

Do no harm

It's a pretty shit joke, which was published nine months ago, so the JC has been pretty shoddy at claiming it's a brilliant expose (though I suppose the Williamson link gives them a way in to use it now.)


----------



## happie chappie (Mar 4, 2019)

Duncan2 said:


> Not much seems to get done about the fucking terrible situation in Palestine.



Not much seems to get done about the fucking worse situation in Yemen either


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 4, 2019)

belboid said:


> The full speech puts the phrase in a rather different context to that implied.  Nice implication from the JC that Bird is lying about being Jewish, too.
> 
> "JVL is calling for disciplinary hearings to be paused until a due process has been established based on principles of natural justice. What I call Jew process."
> 
> ...



And I guess the fact that the MP and the room full of activists laughing along and er not reporting it is proof positive of the seriousness with whcih they take AS


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 4, 2019)

Duncan2 said:


> Not much seems to get done about the fucking terrible situation in Palestine.


Who is it that makes that remark during a talk that’s recorded? Something along the lines of “I was booked to give this talk some years ago, and when asked for a title I was confident in giving it as ‘the Situation in Palestine’, safe in the knowledge that there’d certainly be a situation in Palestine to talk about by the time the conference came around”. 

The point is, there is indeed a problem so long as states see territorial belonging in ethnic terms.


----------



## belboid (Mar 4, 2019)

MadeInBedlam said:


> And I guess the fact that the MP and the room full of activists laughing along and er not reporting it is proof positive of the seriousness with whcih they take AS


Why would they? Equating 'jew process' with 'natural justice' isn't anti-semitic.


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 4, 2019)

belboid said:


> Why would they? Equating 'jew process' with 'natural justice' isn't anti-semitic.



Yes it is


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 4, 2019)

kebabking said:


> That, for me, is the swinger: there are upwards of a million people in Chinese 're-education' camps in Xingjiang province alone, while the rest of the population in that benighted province are _required _to own smartphones with an embedded app that notes every single search, text, message and call they make and transmits than information to the Chinese government.
> 
> The cynical might wonder whether the would-be saviours of the oppressed could hold forth for _hours _on Xingjiang in the way they do on Palestine, or if they get quite so excited about Chinese consumer electronics in their homes as they do about Israeli Oranges in Tesco.
> 
> The cynical might further wonder if the _true _driver of obsessive support for Palestinians is rather more about the identity of the oppressor than it is about the condition of the oppressed....


I'll give holding forth on xinjiang for hours a go

BTW it's not just zionist oranges you have to look out for but avacados too, at least in Sainsbury's


----------



## likesfish (Mar 4, 2019)

Israel you can piss off.
   The Chinese government doesn't give a fuck.
 South Africa not being allowed to play cricket annoyed them.
  not sure there are anything activists can do to annoy China persuade people to buy Korean smartphones? instead


----------



## TopCat (Mar 5, 2019)

My local mp in Morden now equates anti capitalism with anti semitism.


----------



## TopCat (Mar 5, 2019)




----------



## teqniq (Mar 5, 2019)

TopCat said:


> My local mp in Morden now equates anti capitalism with anti semitism.



Your local mp needs to have a word with themselves.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 5, 2019)

TopCat said:


> My local mp in Morden now equates anti capitalism with anti semitism.





TopCat said:


>




If the second post is what your first is referring to, that’s not what she’s saying (in that tweet). For what it’s worth,  I agree with her that “There is a broad issue on the Left of not seeing the Jewish community as ‘oppressed’” and “The linking of Jews, or Zionists, with wealth and power, is all too common on the Left.”

I don’t click through to twitter, but I see that’s the first of a series of tweets. So long as she doesn’t say anything silly in the rest of her thread, I think she’s saying the opposite of what you think. She’s saying (correctly) that some anticapitalists have erroneously equated Jews and power. This is an observation as old as August Bebel and possibly older.


----------



## TopCat (Mar 5, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> If the second post is what your first is referring to, that’s not what she’s saying (in that tweet). For what it’s worth,  I agree with her that “There is a broad issue on the Left of not seeing the Jewish community as ‘oppressed’” and “The linking of Jews, or Zionists, with wealth and power, is all too common on the Left.”
> 
> I don’t click through to twitter, but I see that’s the first of a series of tweets. So long as she doesn’t say anything silly in the rest of her thread, I think she’s saying the opposite of what you think. She’s saying (correctly) that some anticapitalists have erroneously equated Jews and power. This is an observation as old as August Bebel and possibly older.


Have a read before saying more


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 5, 2019)

TopCat said:


> Have a read before saying more


A read of what?

Like I’ve said, I don’t click through to twitter.


----------



## TopCat (Mar 5, 2019)

Well that's you then


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 5, 2019)

TopCat said:


> Well that's you then


Does she say anything that doesn’t fit with my reading of the tweet you’ve posted?  Because my reading of that is that I agree.


----------



## TopCat (Mar 5, 2019)

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...gQIAhAB&usg=AOvVaw2dQlpomtJyl3urRa_DfLPz&cf=1


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 5, 2019)

TopCat said:


> https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://labourlist.org/2019/03/siobhain-mcdonagh-links-anti-capitalism-to-antisemitism-in-labour/?amp&ved=2ahUKEwiK8ISu1-rgAhX-RBUIHZ_pA9EQFjAUegQIAhAB&usg=AOvVaw2dQlpomtJyl3urRa_DfLPz&cf=1


I think whoever wrote that headline is similarly getting backwards what she’s saying. There’s nothing in her reported speech that contradicts what I read as the meaning of the tweet you’ve posted.


----------



## Signal 11 (Mar 5, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> If the second post is what your first is referring to, that’s not what she’s saying (in that tweet).


She's quoted as agreeing to it on the radio as a leading question after having apparently stopped a little short of it in her own words.


> “In other words, to be anti-capitalist you have to be antisemitic?”
> "Yes.”


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 5, 2019)

Signal 11 said:


> She's quoted as agreeing to it on the radio as a leading question after having apparently stopped a little short of it in her own words.


In the context, she’s agreeing that that is the interpretation that some on the left have.  She is quoted as going on to say “Not everybody, but there is a certain… there’s a certain strand of it”.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 5, 2019)

_*''Labour MP Siobhain McDonagh said there was a link between antisemitism and the anti-capitalist beliefs of ‘hard left’ Labour members during a Radio 4 interview this morning.

Asked by John Humphrys whether she believed the Labour Party was taking antisemitism “properly seriously”, McDonagh replied: “I’m not sure that some people in the Labour Party can.

“Because it’s very much part of their politics, of hard left politics, to be against capitalists and to see Jewish people as the financiers of capital. Ergo you are anti-Jewish people.

Humphrys followed up: “In other words, to be anti-capitalist you have to be antisemitic?”

“Yes,” the Labour MP said. “Not everybody, but there is a certain… there’s a certain strand of it. These people are not Labour, have never been Labour, but we now find them in our party.”*_

She does actually say 'not everybody' but I don't know if that is what will be remembered from this. The only memorable concepts from this are anti-capitalism and antisemitism. 

I think she needed to be more clear about 'the strand' she is referring to and give examples like she did on twitter, shame she could only dig up a 5 year old article about Livingstone to do that though.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 5, 2019)

Signal 11 said:


> She's quoted as agreeing to it on the radio as a leading question after having apparently stopped a little short of it in her own words.


leading questions have never stopped mps answering them with blather and windbaggery when they want to


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 5, 2019)

I haven’t heard the radio interview, but it looks like the Express are leaping on the wrong interpretation too. For different reasons.  In the reports of the interview, her reported speech looks less-than-eloquent. But there is nothing there that contradicts my reading of the twitter post that was initially provided.

I’m going to have to get on a computer and look at feckin twitter now, to see the rest of her thread. So thanks for that. I’m supposed to have sworn off twitter, you bunch of gits. :shakes fist:


----------



## mojo pixy (Mar 5, 2019)

belboid said:


> Israel is, supposedly, a part of the western liberal democracies, not dictatorships like Syria, China or Chechnya. So it is supposed to live up to 'higher standards.'



Supposed to, by whom? Allies of Turkey, say, or India? Thailand? I don't know how we pick our democratic allies but it sure isn't based on their human rights record or unwillingness to oppress internal and external populations. The Higher Standards we 'democracies' are supposed to live up to are not that high, really (plus we all get to say ''the people voted for this'' which is the real power of democracy in the hands of bastards)

EtA, I'd have mentioned the UK too, but Ireland and empire are all history now


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Mar 5, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Does she say anything that doesn’t fit with my reading of the tweet you’ve posted?  Because my reading of that is that I agree.



I'll save you the job - the answer is 'NO'.

For the ten millionth time......just because you don't like the politics of the messenger and just because you think the messenger has other motives for making the point they make it does not follow that their point is wrong.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 5, 2019)

OK, on laptop now.  Which means I can see the twitter thread, and C&P her thread.

Here it is:

"There is a broad issue on the Left of not seeing the Jewish community as ‘oppressed’ in the same way we see most, if not all, minority groups. The linking of Jews, or Zionists, with wealth and power, is all too common on the Left. See:" [Here S McD links to old Telegraph article]

"A strand of anti-capitalists see Jews as being inextricably linked to the power of global capital. Sadly it is a trope that is deeply embedded in sections of the Far-Left."

"It has manifested itself in anti-Semitic murals defended by our Leader and in myths pedalled by a prominent Far-Left activist about Jews being the “chief financiers of the sugar and slave trade”."

"Couple the idea of Jewish wealth with the propensity many anti-capitalists have to fall into lazy critiques of power – charging a shadowy “elite” for all of society’s ills – you end up with a hard-Left politics that is fundamentally bigoted"

"I will be clear: it is wrong to equate Jews with capitalism or with undue power and influence but this trope is just as common on the Far-Left as the Far-Right. It is a trope that is sown through the politics of those now running the Labour Party."


OK, so that is essentially the critique I thought it was.  And, save for a couple of phrases that could lead in wrong directions, I agree with it.  And anyone who thinks she's saying what TopCat initially reported has got it backwards.


(And can I please make a plea that people c&p tweets instead of embedding them? Not all of us have twitter, and tweets can be deleted anyway).


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 5, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I'll save you the job - the answer is 'NO'.
> 
> For the ten millionth time......just because you don't like the politics of the messenger and just because you think the messenger has other motives for making the point they make it does not follow that their point is wrong.


It’s important to separate what’s been said from any agenda we might impute about why they’ve said it. If “the left” seems to continue to deny the truth of that critique as outlined in the tweets I c&ped, then the damage can continue to be done. The punches can continue to land. 

Far better for the antisemitism on the left to be tackled by the left. As I alluded to earlier, the saying usually attributed to Bebel, “Anti-Semitism is the socialism of fools”, still holds true.  If we can’t make that clear without causing confusion on both “sides”, then we may as well give up.


----------



## Serge Forward (Mar 5, 2019)

Labour MP is pro capitalist shocker!!! For the record, Labour has always been a party of capitalism. The left labour are every bit as pro capitalist - though admittedly they do prefer a fluffier version. As for the MP's "yes" response in the interview... for fuck sake, when does a politician ever say "yes" in an interview!?!? She's doing it wrong!


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 5, 2019)

Clause 4 wasn't pro-capitalist, so Labour hasn't always just been a party of capitalism. 

Agree about the interview, though. Outwitted by John Humphrys. For shame.


----------



## two sheds (Mar 5, 2019)

Serge Forward said:


> Labour MP is pro capitalist shocker!!! For the record, Labour has always been a party of capitalism. The left labour are every bit as pro capitalist - though admittedly they do prefer a fluffier version. As for the MP's "yes" response in the interview... for fuck sake, when does a politician ever say "yes" in an interview!?!? She's doing it wrong!



Aiming for something that is achievable within the capitalist world we're saddled with is different from being pro-capitalist.


----------



## belboid (Mar 5, 2019)

" It is a trope that is sown through the politics of those now running the Labour Party."

That isn't just talking about those who hold to conspiraloon Rothschild theories, it's talking about everyone on the 'hard' left, everyone from McDonnell leftwards - they, _we_, are all implicated, which is why she answered 'yes' to Humphrys.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Mar 5, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> It’s important to separate what’s been said from any agenda we might impute about why they’ve said it. If “the left” seems to continue to deny the truth of that critique as outlined in the tweets I c&ped, then the damage can continue to be done. The punches can continue to land.
> 
> Far better for the antisemitism on the left to be tackled by the left. As I alluded to earlier, the saying usually attributed to Bebel, “Anti-Semitism is the socialism of fools”, still holds true.  If we can’t make that clear without causing confusion on both “sides”, then we may as well give up.



This would require a significant shift in mindset and away from the current binary politics on this that I simply do not detect any signs of. At base the gushing 'whataboutery' is an expression of solidarity with those who posses the socialism of fools.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Mar 5, 2019)

two sheds said:


> Aiming for something that is achievable within the capitalist world we're saddled with is different from being pro-capitalist.



Yes. It's social democracy which is what the Labour Party has historically espoused.


----------



## mojo pixy (Mar 5, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> It’s important to separate what’s been said from any agenda we might impute about why they’ve said it. If “the left” seems to continue to deny the truth of that critique as outlined in the tweets I c&ped, then the damage can continue to be done. The punches can continue to land.
> 
> Far better for the antisemitism on the left to be tackled by the left. As I alluded to earlier, the saying usually attributed to Bebel, “Anti-Semitism is the socialism of fools”, still holds true.  If we can’t make that clear without causing confusion on both “sides”, then we may as well give up.



Also that Israel is one of a number of truly shitty states doing truly shitty things that we (ie. the UK) enable by selling weapons and providing logistical support and intelligence etc .. and our focus could be (maybe) more usefully placed on the British companies and organisations who supply said resources. Rather than on another foreign state doing things we, here cannot change .. unless we then give _all _such states equal condemnation, explicitly.

Ugh, I may regret this but anyway.

I've been to arms-fairs actions at ExCel, and they felt a lot more useful and important than waving Palestine flags on Whitehall. _Achieved _fuck all but _felt _useful? Were meaningful? Who knows. Anyway The problem IMO is the middle-class _Protest Industry_ who don't want real action because it would spoil their good name. They prefer virtue signalling on Whitehall, and they call people doing anything more _Black Block Troublemakers. _

One of the things that drove me away from protests was the response I got from questioning motives - specifically the constant, noisy centering of Israeli actions over and above any other misbehaving nation state's actions. I've been called _every _fucking name, even by people I thought were cool. And quite a few of these people are now (weren't then but are now) hooked onto Corbyn's Labour as a solution. But as far as I know they haven't stopped using terms like Zionist scum and Hasbara shills, both terms which disguise other, disgusting slurs they really mean.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 5, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> At base the gushing 'whataboutery' is an expression of solidarity with those who posses the socialism of fools.


I think that’s right. It’s what I’ve called in the past “the non-condemnation impulse”.  And it is a big problem.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 5, 2019)

belboid said:


> " It is a trope that is sown through the politics of those now running the Labour Party."
> 
> That isn't just talking about those who hold to conspiraloon Rothschild theories, it's talking about everyone on the 'hard' left, everyone from McDonnell leftwards - they, _we_, are all implicated, which is why she answered 'yes' to Humphrys.


She may indeed be trying to smear the left, but that doesn’t mean the trope _doesn’t_ run through the left. Because it does. I’ve seen it.  I’d be surprised if you haven’t too.

If it didn’t, the smear wouldn’t work.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 5, 2019)

two sheds said:


> Aiming for something that is achievable within the capitalist world we're saddled with is different from being pro-capitalist.


except that if you do a circuit of the city and go and meet other businesses to say how you're really very friendly to business the message does get somewhat confused.


----------



## Serge Forward (Mar 5, 2019)

two sheds said:


> Aiming for something that is achievable within the capitalist world we're saddled with is different from being pro-capitalist.


Okay, pro fluffy capitalism then. Bigger cages, longer chains...


----------



## belboid (Mar 5, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> She may indeed be trying to smear the left, but that doesn’t mean the trope _doesn’t_ run through the left. Because it does. I’ve seen it.  I’d be surprised if you haven’t too.
> 
> If it didn’t, the smear wouldn’t work.


I have indeed seen a few people on the left who hold to such views. But I've seen more people on the left who support QPR. No one would say supporting QPR runs through the left, because that would be patently silly. There are several more people who don't recognise those tropes, for sure, but that is also quite different to actually holding to those beliefs.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 5, 2019)

Serge Forward said:


> Okay, pro fluffy capitalism then. Bigger cages, longer chains...



"To secure for the workers by hand or by brain the full fruits of their industry and the most equitable distribution thereof that may be possible upon the basis of the common ownership of the means of production, distribution and exchange, and the best obtainable system of popular administration and control of each industry or service."

Is that pro-fluffy capitalism? I agree that that is what Labour has become, but it was not always thus.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 5, 2019)

Clause 4 was put in place by the right of the party - by the fabians ffs -  to put a lid on anti-capitalism. It was never anything but rhetoric designed to stop the party splitting. People used to know this before Corbyn. Basic labour history.


----------



## Serge Forward (Mar 5, 2019)

Well, if by "common ownership" you mean nationalised industries with former owners on the boards of said nationalised industries, then it wasn't even that fluffy. For the Labour left, their vision of socialism has never gone beyond nationalisation - i.e. state capitalism for the big industries with private capitalism round the peripheries. I don't really see that as socialism in any meaningful way.


----------



## two sheds (Mar 5, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> except that if you do a circuit of the city and go and meet other businesses to say how you're really very friendly to business the message does get somewhat confused.



Indeed. The price of needing to get elected, but then the snouts go in the troughs and the four legs and two legs start looking the same.


----------



## two sheds (Mar 5, 2019)

Serge Forward said:


> Okay, pro fluffy capitalism then. Bigger cages, longer chains...



As opposed to the barbed wire capitalism. Smaller cages, shorter chains of the tories. Unless you have a good solid timetabled plan of getting the tories out without voting them out ...


----------



## TopCat (Mar 5, 2019)

I know the limitations to what Labour offer. I will still vote for them.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 5, 2019)

belboid said:


> I have indeed seen a few people on the left who hold to such views. But I've seen more people on the left who support QPR. No one would say supporting QPR runs through the left, because that would be patently silly. There are several more people who don't recognise those tropes, for sure, but that is also quite different to actually holding to those beliefs.


I understand what you’re saying and why, but I think you’re erring on the side of dangerously underplaying. It reads, in the context we have, very like wilful blind eye turning.  Antisemitism isn’t inherent in anti-capitalism, but there is a milieu where it’s a real problem. 

I used to be a local contact person for the Stop the War stuff. But I had to leave because of a wave of reactionary views (anti semitism, sexism, homophobia) not just being excused, but criticism thereof being denounced as imperialist, culturally ethnocentric, and racist.  And (although I personally haven’t directly been in Labour Party circles since the early 80s), I’d be amazed if that RESPECT-type of attitude - personified by Galloway - hadn’t flooded into Labour with the entryists during the Corbyn membership surge.

I don’t think it does us on the left generally any favours to pretend otherwise.


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 5, 2019)

TopCat said:


> I know the limitations to what Labour offer. I will still vote for them.


While I disagree with your conclusions, I know a lot of decent people who agree with you. And I don’t want to distance myself from them.


----------



## Serge Forward (Mar 5, 2019)

I wouldn't dream of telling anyone not to vote for Labour, or for anyone else they think might possibly offer up a bit of lesser evil, pain killers and palliatives. Ultimately though, the Labour Party is part of the problem and can never be a solution if you seek the destruction of capitalism.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 5, 2019)

Serge Forward said:


> I wouldn't dream of telling anyone not to vote for Labour, or for anyone else they think might possibly offer up a bit of lesser evil, pain killers and palliatives. Ultimately though, the Labour Party is part of the problem and can never be a solution if you seek the destruction of capitalism.


seeing labour in local government destroying social housing doesn't fill me with confidence in what the party might do in national government.


----------



## belboid (Mar 5, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> I understand what you’re saying and why, but I think you’re erring on the side of dangerously underplaying. It reads, in the context we have, very like wilful blind eye turning.  Antisemitism isn’t inherent in anti-capitalism, but there is a milieu where it’s a real problem.
> 
> I used to be a local contact person for the Stop the War stuff. But I had to leave because of a wave of reactionary views (anti semitism, sexism, homophobia) not just being excused, but criticism thereof being denounced as imperialist, culturally ethnocentric, and racist.  And (although I personally haven’t directly been in Labour Party circles since the early 80s), I’d be amazed if that RESPECT-type of attitude - personified by Galloway - hadn’t flooded into Labour with the entryists during the Corbyn membership surge.
> 
> I don’t think it does us on the left generally any favours to pretend otherwise.


It is, obviously, all down to who you see and hear. Fortunately the STW groups I had any involvement in did explicitly refute such nonsense, spoke out against the idea that no jewish people had died in 9/11, and the idea that the US state was behind it. Some STW groups did go over (Frome being the most notable, the national campaign explicitly distanced themselves from them), but they seemed fairly unusual, ime. And I wholly agree that those, particularly around the risible Labour Party Marxists, or Labour Against the Witchhunt (which is the only place I've seen at all clear antisemitism) do no one any favours at all by denying that conspiralooneery is an issue at all, when they are (through their semi-nationwide existence) able to see better. For most LP members, I really doubt they see any of it at all, and, given that the criticisms come mostly from people who have always hated Corbyn and everything vaguely leftwing he's ever stood for, of course they/we will be cynical as fuck about their motivations and even their facts.


----------



## Serge Forward (Mar 5, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> seeing labour in local government destroying social housing doesn't fill me with confidence in what the party might do in national government.


Quite.


----------



## TopCat (Mar 5, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> seeing labour in local government destroying social housing doesn't fill me with confidence in what the party might do in national government.


Me neither


----------



## Mr Moose (Mar 5, 2019)

The revolutionary left doubles down. Some of it no problem, some of it true, but it’s not likely to help Labour get out of a hole. Sure you don’t give up on people, but can Labour afford Beeley sympathisers who don’t know when to give it a rest?

Chris Williamson’s suspension must be opposed


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 5, 2019)

This made me laugh - although perhaps I should take more seriously the dangers of running dogs in the AWL

Defend Corbyn against the AWL


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 5, 2019)

Agree with danny la rouge and Smokeandsteam on the anti-semitism stuff.  



littlebabyjesus said:


> "To secure for the workers by hand or by brain the full fruits of their industry and the most equitable distribution thereof that may be possible upon the basis of the common ownership of the means of production, distribution and exchange, and the best obtainable system of popular administration and control of each industry or service."


Oh come on. A meaningless platitude, what were the actions of the Labour Party, what is its history.


----------



## rekil (Mar 6, 2019)

cantsin said:


> Sorry , meant on ‘ public stages / irl / festivals / etc ‘ - ie : looked at the Marx Memorial talk of hers, pure anti imperialist / anti west spiel , can’t imagine her parading her AS underbelly  on a stage


I'm certainly not going to go through every one of her public appearances but she did it at that fiasco in Estonia where she banged on about Soros and the students roasted her. She is obsessed with Soros.



I've no idea what in particular attracted Chris Williamson to her brand of activism but surely if you knew nothing about her beforehand and were somehow unaware that she's an associate editor on a conspiraloon site run by holocaust denier Patrick Henningsen, content like this would've set off at least one arooga arooga type alarm noise.




It's a link to a loon site run by someone called Jonathan Azaziah aka 'Madd Cold', a very bad rapper. Sample lyrics.

From 'We Love You Mahmoud (Ahmadinejad)'


> You’re the biggest reason 9/11 truth and “Holocaust” revisionism spread to the Earth’s four corners
> And because they couldn’t stop the trend, they dispersed more mortars


From 'Dead The Dajjal'


> Do I gotta spell it out? Fine, I’ll yell it out, Dajjalic conspiracy’s global and the upper echelon is Jewish
> 9/11 and World War Two are the main tools they utilize to silence discussion
> So I am just gonna decry it in public, ‘cause I will not succumb to the wicked
> How can I deny your “Holocaust” when there wasn’t one to begin with?


From 'I Ain't Charlie'


> I Ain’t Charlie, he’s an Islamophobe
> I Ain’t Charlie, everybody’s gotta know
> I Ain’t Charlie, he’s dangerous and cruel
> Charlie Hebdo is an agent of the Jews
> ...



And so on. There's a lot of it.

I saw someone mention this post ("The Sick World We Live In") on her blog from 2015 and say she was on the 'far left'. She's whinging about her mate Jacob Cohen being made persona non grata by BDS because of his involvement with Soral and Dieudonne. The bit about "islamists" refers to her belief that mossad orchestrated the Charlie Hebdo massacre. She had claimed that the mag is a "piece of shit zio media", probably due to its stance towards the French far right.



> We are living in a world where “Islamists” are blamed for murder before the blood has even dried on the pavement. World outrage takes flight before the perpetrator is even apprehended. Yet we are censored and threatened if we dare to say boo to a Jew in jest or in protest at what is being done in their name.
> 
> We live in a world where, if our Governments have their way, we will be hamstrung, shackled, gagged and punished for speaking the truth. We already see BDS France enforcing the gagging order on Jacob Cohen for his association with Dieudonne, demonized by the French Government [the Israel possessed Valls] for daring to question and satirize the Jewish narratives that are the bedrock of Zionist impunity. Who the hell gave Judaism any superiority over other religions, faiths and beliefs that only they should be immune from investigation and exposure of wrongdoing?


----------



## Patteran (Mar 6, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> Clause 4 was put in place by the right of the party - by the fabians ffs -  to put a lid on anti-capitalism. It was never anything but rhetoric designed to stop the party splitting. People used to know this before Corbyn. Basic labour history.



Leo Panitch talks about this, doesn't he - the history of Labour as a party of class harmony, not class conflict. Representatives of all classes, including but not limited to the subordinate classes, absorbed easily, happily & permanently into key institutions & structures, etc.


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 6, 2019)

EHRC getting involved now

https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/...ion-investigates-labour-antisemitism-1.481078


----------



## killer b (Mar 9, 2019)

This article about the tactics and politics of some of the labour antisemitism campaigners is worth a read: worth noting that the tactics they discuss are not restricted to those critical of the left, and if anything originate on our side of the fence.

The problem with Gnasher and LAAS


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 9, 2019)

killer b said:


> This article about the tactics and politics of some of the labour antisemitism campaigners is worth a read: worth noting that the tactics they discuss are not restricted to those critical of the left, and if anything originate on our side of the fence.
> 
> The problem with Gnasher and LAAS


Thanks for the link KB


----------



## brogdale (Mar 9, 2019)

killer b said:


> This article about the tactics and politics of some of the labour antisemitism campaigners is worth a read: worth noting that the tactics they discuss are not restricted to those critical of the left, and if anything originate on our side of the fence.
> 
> The problem with Gnasher and LAAS


Useful piece and very smart to open with this:


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 9, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Useful piece and very smart to open with this:
> 
> View attachment 163973


Except the bit about the man in the mirror

Doesn't sit well with the bit about other forms of prejudice


----------



## brogdale (Mar 9, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Except the bit about the man in the mirror
> 
> Doesn't sit well with the bit about other forms of prejudice


Probably being slow here...but not sure I get that


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 9, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Probably being slow here...but not sure I get that


There are, I hear, women in the Labour Party, some of them even in a position to make decisions. Should they look at the man in the mirror too?


----------



## brogdale (Mar 9, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> There are, I hear, women in the Labour Party, some of them even in a position to make decisions. Should they look at the man in the mirror too?


Doh, yeah.


----------



## oryx (Mar 9, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Except the bit about the man in the mirror...



I can't believe I've just read that (the quote from the article, not your post!).

And in an article purporting to be about unconscious prejudice.


----------



## killer b (Mar 9, 2019)

It isn't a piece about unconscious prejudice tbf


----------



## oryx (Mar 9, 2019)

killer b said:


> It isn't a piece about unconscious prejudice tbf


Yeah the whole thing is about more than that...but the 'man in the mirror' bit is definitely about unconscious bias.

It's Amber Rudd level terminology. Really fucking shocking that someone can use language like that in this context in 2019.


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 9, 2019)

“I want to look at two self-appointed watchdogs who have played a hugely destructive role in exacerbating the crisis“

That river in Egypt springs to mind


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 9, 2019)

MadeInBedlam said:


> “I want to look at two self-appointed watchdogs who have played a hugely destructive role in exacerbating the crisis“
> 
> That river in Egypt springs to mind


How so? The author is quite clear that Labour members have used anti-Semitic tropes and that the party has been ineffective at dealing with the issue. Indeed part of his criticism of the two groups is that their actions actually interfere with the tackling of anti-semitism.

EDIT: Not to mention some of the comments of Gnasher/LAAS are themselves anti-semitic.


----------



## belboid (Mar 15, 2019)

Good to see Jo Bird's ludicrous suspension has been lifted. Only a brain dead moron could argue what she said was anti-semitic. 
Labour councillor who made 'Jew process' joke has suspension lifted


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 15, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> you do know the zionist entity and apartheid south africa were allies, right?
> View attachment 163570
> Brothers in arms - Israel's secret pact with Pretoria
> 
> ...



Good old "Project Coast" and its various tributaries.


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 27, 2019)

Jackie Walker’s been expelled for standing up to Jewish slave-financiers/bringing the party into disrepute 

And to to think she even did a dance outside the offices.


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 27, 2019)

Support from all the right people


----------



## Riklet (Mar 27, 2019)

These twats wouldn't know real persecution if it fell on their grandma.

Get these tactless dicks out of the Labour party, doesnt matter their colour or religion they're part of the problem - the fact that Icke Beeley Williamson and all the other scummy antisemites out there are lining up to support them is telling in itself.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Mar 28, 2019)

Jackie Walker is the victim of a witch hunt. A life long anti-racist, labour activist of black and jewish parantage stitched up at by rightwingers and opportunists of all hues. Here are the comments she made in a private exchange in context:



> "Oh yes – and I hope you feel the same towards the African holocaust? My ancestors were involved in both – on all sides as I'm sure you know, millions more Africans were killed in the African holocaust and their oppression continues today on a global scale in a way it doesn't for Jews... and many Jews (my ancestors too) were the chief financiers of the sugar and slave trade which is of course why there were so many early synagogues in the Caribbean. So who are victims and what does it mean? We are victims and perpetrators to some extent through choice. And having been a victim does not give you a right to be a perpetrator.'



After her comments were made public she clarified: 



> "Yes, I wrote 'many Jews (my ancestors too) were the chief financiers of the sugar and slave trade'. These words, taken out of context in the way the media did, of course do not reflect my position. I was writing to someone who knew the context of my comments. Had he felt the need to pick me up on what I had written I would have rephrased – perhaps to 'Jews (my ancestors too) were among those who financed the sugar and slave trade and at the particular time/in the particular area I'm talking about they played an important part.' ... [My claim] has never been that Jews played a disproportionate role in the Atlantic Slave Trade, merely that, as historians such as Arnold Wiznitzer noted, at a certain economic point, in specific regions where my ancestors lived, Jews played a dominant role 'as financiers of the sugar industry, as brokers and exporters of sugar, and as suppliers of Negro slaves on credit."



I agree wholeheartedly with Jon Lansman's assessment of this conversation:



> "The conversation was one about her own heritage, and the roles of both victim and perpetrator played by her own direct ancestors. Some of her direct Jewish antecedents were, according to her own genealogical research, involved in the financing and operation of the slave trade. It was a serious discussion about how one is a victim or perpetrator “_to some extent through choice_” in the context of her own heritage and current debates about racism. In my view, the tone and context of that conversation makes absolutely clear that nothing about it were antisemitic."



The same is true of all the other decontextualised quotes that are supposed to implicate Jackie. I'm absolutely disgusted that another decent, anti-racist has been vilified by the racist, pro-Apartheid propagandists (in Lansman's words a '“_lynch mob_” whose interest in combatting racism is highly selective').


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 28, 2019)

3 labour members (now thankfully ex-members) arrested today over antisemitic abuse.

Police arrest three in Labour antisemitism case


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 28, 2019)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Jackie Walker is the victim of a witch hunt. A life long anti-racist, labour activist of black and jewish parantage stitched up at by rightwingers and opportunists of all hues. Here are the comments she made in a private exchange in context:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Completely disagree. She’s a liability, and if I was a Labour member I’d want rid of her. She either knows the line she’s walking in her comments, in which case she’s at best playing with bigotry, or she doesn’t, in which case she’s an idiot. Either way, they’re well shot of her.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Mar 28, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Completely disagree. She’s a liability, and if I was a Labour member I’d want rid of her. She either knows the line she’s walking in her comments, in which case she’s at best playing with bigotry, or she doesn’t, in which case she’s an idiot. Either way, they’re well shot of her.



She's the victim of a smear campaign launched by the most unprincipled, bullying, racist elements within the Labour Party (i.e. the pro-apartheid lot). I am appalled by the harassment, bullying and threats she's received from the apartheid cheerleaders. It's the latter who should be kicked out of the party, not their victim.


----------



## Geri (Mar 28, 2019)

Fuck her and her brainless supporters.


----------



## belboid (Mar 28, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Completely disagree. She’s a liability, and if I was a Labour member I’d want rid of her. She either knows the line she’s walking in her comments, in which case she’s at best playing with bigotry, or she doesn’t, in which case she’s an idiot. Either way, they’re well shot of her.


I dont have much sympathy for her - she's a raging egotist who only really gives a shit about Jackie Walker, and walking out of her hearing did her no favours. But the above isn't really true, and if someone is to be expelled from an organisation, it should be for what they have actually done, rather than because they're simply annoying gobshites. And they should be able to defend themselves fairly - ie adding additional charges in a long running case isn't really on, is it?

The first complaint was over a private facebook conversation taken out of context (as explained in Jeff's post). The second was a supposedly private training session where participants were encouraged to ask awkward questions _in private_. To then release a video of those 'awkward questions' is inherently wrong. And one of those awkward questions - about why african genocides carried out by western imperialism, are so much less commemorated than the European holocaust - is a perfectly fair enough question. 

If she is as stupid as you are saying, and she regularly and repeatedly plays with that line between asking awkward questions and simply giving voice to reactionary/racist arguments, then there would be a list as long as your arm, wouldn't there? But there isn't.


----------



## killer b (Mar 28, 2019)

belboid said:


> if someone is to be expelled from an organisation, it should be for what they have actually done, rather than because they're simply annoying gobshites.


'Be an annoying gobshite' _is_ something they've done though.


----------



## Mr Moose (Mar 28, 2019)

killer b said:


> 'Be an annoying gobshite' _is_ something they've done though.



Being an annoying gobshite is something _everyone_ has done.

She seems like someone working through a few issues. That’s always been necessary for some (and an important part of politics to help people do that) but it doesn’t play well in the days of social media with a press ready to seize on anything that can be presented badly without a care for any nuance.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 28, 2019)

Mr Moose said:


> Being an annoying gobshite is something _everyone_ has done.
> 
> She seems like someone working through a few issues. That’s always been necessary for some (and an important part of politics to help people do that) but it doesn’t play well in the days of social media with a press ready to seize on anything that can be presented badly without a care for any nuance.


Life isn't a membership organisation.

Jeff talks about full context - does he know who JW was talking to and the full context of their private conversation?

In the three years since Corbyn has been elected she has pranced around on the line of jew-baiting - in a situation of madly focused  scrutiny on the people she claims to support for exactly this stuff. She has no place on the left full-stop never mind the labour party. The charge of “prejudicial and grossly detrimental behaviour against the party” - which isn't a judgement on the partial remarks posted above in suggestion that they were the full remarks - is undeniable. It might be a catch-all administrative manouvere, but it's def caught her.


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 28, 2019)

Who got Press TV along to the hearing? Her? Some other JVLer?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 28, 2019)

belboid said:


> I dont have much sympathy for her - she's a raging egotist who only really gives a shit about Jackie Walker, and walking out of her hearing did her no favours. But the above isn't really true, and if someone is to be expelled from an organisation, it should be for what they have actually done, rather than because they're simply annoying gobshites. And they should be able to defend themselves fairly - ie adding additional charges in a long running case isn't really on, is it?
> 
> The first complaint was over a private facebook conversation taken out of context (as explained in Jeff's post). The second was a supposedly private training session where participants were encouraged to ask awkward questions _in private_. To then release a video of those 'awkward questions' is inherently wrong. And one of those awkward questions - about why african genocides carried out by western imperialism, are so much less commemorated than the European holocaust - is a perfectly fair enough question.
> 
> If she is as stupid as you are saying, and she regularly and repeatedly plays with that line between asking awkward questions and simply giving voice to reactionary/racist arguments, then there would be a list as long as your arm, wouldn't there? But there isn't.



In the context of the conversations she was having, and given her own ethnic background I don't think I have actually read anything that clearly outlines what was wrong with her comments. Lots of suggestion that 'she can't say that', a fuckton of snidey 'self hating Jew' comments at the time this story broke as I recall, and then there were the really nasty insinuations and indirect questioning of her actual 'Jewishness'.

It would be interesting to know how others think she could have had those conversations without saying what she did and what people think gives them the right to decide how she is allowed to interact with and describe her relationship and thoughts about her own hertitage/history.


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 28, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> a fuckton of snidey 'self hating Jew' comments



Chin


----------



## oryx (Mar 28, 2019)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Chin



?


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 28, 2019)

oryx said:


> ?



Why do children (and some regressive adults) mock a suspected liar with the expression and gesture ''itchy chin''. | Notes and Queries | guardian.co.uk


----------



## oryx (Mar 28, 2019)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Why do children (and some regressive adults) mock a suspected liar with the expression and gesture ''itchy chin''. | Notes and Queries | guardian.co.uk


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 28, 2019)

oryx said:


>



So this ‘fuckton of self hating jew comments’...?


----------



## Mr Moose (Mar 29, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> Life isn't a membership organisation.
> 
> Jeff talks about full context - does he know who JW was talking to and the full context of their private conversation?
> 
> In the three years since Corbyn has been elected she has pranced around on the line of jew-baiting - in a situation of madly focused  scrutiny on the people she claims to support for exactly this stuff. She has no place on the left full-stop never mind the labour party. The charge of “prejudicial and grossly detrimental behaviour against the party” - which isn't a judgement on the partial remarks posted above in suggestion that they were the full remarks - is undeniable. It might be a catch-all administrative manouvere, but it's def caught her.



I take your point and I don’t know the extent or depth.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 29, 2019)

oryx said:


> ?



oryx  It's a childish way of calling me a liar.  I don't care. 

The allegations I referred to were all over social media at the time. Yes, there was a fuckton of abuse levelled at JW and yes it did come in all of the forms I listed in my post above. Even a quick google  brings up loads of stuff and first hand reports about what happened at the training session for example and how horribly it was manipulated into something to attack JW with.

Of of all the things in my post that was the only thing questioned and responded to in such a snidey, childish way? Meh.


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 29, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> oryx  It's a childish way of calling me a liar.  I don't care.
> 
> The allegations I referred to were all over social media at the time. Yes, there was a fuckton of abuse levelled at JW and yes it did come in all of the forms I listed in my post above. Even a quick google  brings up loads of stuff and first hand reports about what happened at the training session for example and how horribly it was manipulated into something to attack JW with.
> 
> Of of all the things in my post that was the only thing questioned and responded to in such a snidey, childish way? Meh.



Pretty much everything in your post is shite. Happy to expand when I have the time.

This ‘fuckton of ‘self hating jew’ comments’ though. Can you cite where she was called a ‘self hating jew’?

Oh and walker isn’t Jewish in a hakachic sense, nor is a practicing Jew, and I’m not aware of her even referencing her Jewishness until fairly recently. Not that I’m fussed in and and itself, but if she’s going to go jew-face for the purpose of gaslightinging those who complain about antisemitism (sadly she’s not the first) then she can’t expect people not to question (snidely or otherwise) her ‘Jewish identity’


----------



## killer b (Mar 29, 2019)

I've not seen Walker called a self hating jew tbf. I've seen lots of people saying she isn't really a jew, but that's not really the same.


----------



## killer b (Mar 29, 2019)

Anyway: she's a crank and a wrecker and fuck her.


----------



## Riklet (Mar 29, 2019)

She might have just got away with it if she had shown any understanding of the political damage of her various repeatedly offensive  comments. Or apologised at all. Or not turned the whole thing into me me me. Or not created that documentary _Witchhunt_ which explains it all as an attack against those who defend the Palestinians in the Labour Party (clearly not true).

  Personally I don't think people should 'not be allowed to say' what she's said, but she's not an average person in an average position, she was high up in the party and more subject to to scrutiny requiring the setting of a good example at very least.

It's a shame Labour didnt sort this mess out properly and with some political education 3 years ago too, because plenty on the left, who define themselves by being _anti_ this and that with endless whataboutery still just don't get it.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 29, 2019)

Riklet said:


> She might have just got away with it if she had shown any understanding of the political damage of her various repeatedly offensive  comments. Or apologised at all. Or not turned the whole thing into her her her. Or created that documentary Witchhunt which explains it all as an attack against those who defend the Palestinians in the Labour Party (clearly not true).
> 
> Personally I don't think people should 'not be allowed to say' what she's said, but she's not an average person in an average position, she was high up in the party and more subject to to scrutiny requiring the setting of a good example at very least.
> 
> It's a shame Labour didnt sort this mess out properly and with some political education too, because plenty on the left, who define themselves by being _anti_ this and that with endless whataboutery just don't get it.


Maybe this is a sign that the party has finally decided that these people are never going to 'get it' and simply moving them on is the better bet, even in the short term.


----------



## Riklet (Mar 29, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> Maybe this is a sign that the party has finally decided that these people are never going to 'get it' and simply moving them on is the better bet, even in the short term.



What's your take on why they are never going to get it? How did things get like this? I'm interested in your take on it because tbh I only started following it all relatively recently.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 29, 2019)

Riklet said:


> What's your take on why they are never going to get it? How did things get like this? I'm interested in your take on it because tbh I only started following it all relatively recently.


That's a big big question that i'll have to come back to in more detail later, but i think for a lot them it's to do with not having the disciplining effect of a labour movement with deep functional roots in communities any more (though i note walker has been in the party since '81 - maybe a telling year on reflection). A sort of secondary social alienation after the first one that warps often well meaning other-people directed instincts into this hateful shit.


----------



## treelover (Mar 29, 2019)

> 1.	 SOLIDARITY WITH THE JEWISH COMMUNITY
> 
> 
> 1.	  Sheffield Central Constituency Labour Party confirms its solidarity with the Jewish community and Jewish party members at a time when antisemitism is causing considerable concern both within the Party and in wider society.
> ...




Last night at Sheffield CLP, a motion of solidarity with Jewish Labour Party members/community, saw an amendent which stated 'all members of the party, not just Jewish members'*, with proposers claiming they were under attack for supporting Palestine and it was making them feel uncomfortable in the party, then others going on about Palestine, which had nothing to do with the motion, it failed but only by a handful of votes, many of the endorsers were PSC members. Main motion then went through unanimous, following on from Hallam's(one the weathiest constituencies)  near unanimous vote in support of Chris Williamson, not looking too good in Sheff.


----------



## ska invita (Apr 1, 2019)

Interesting post on Facebook from a friend. 

People who have read my postings regularly will know that I am not a big fan of Ken Livingstone, for all sorts of reasons. I'll happily send anyone who wants it a copy of a long posting I wrote about him. I was not exactly weeping and wailing when he resigned from the Labour Party. Clear?

So that is the background to this comment on the Jewish Chronicle. If you Google "Jewish Chronicle Ken Livingstone" you will find the top two Jewish Chronicle links having been first posted eight hours ago. They lead to to the same article in the JC, the first says "Ken Livingstone says it's not antisemitic to hate the Jews of Israel..." while the second says "Ken Livinstone calls Labour anti-semitism allegations 'lies and..." 

[**Sure enough....]
Jewish Chronicle Ken Livingstone - Google Search

So why would the JC post two article headings around the same time leading to the same article?
There's a link in the JC article to something in the Mail on Sunday which says "Former Mayor of London added: ‘It’s not anti-Semitic to hate the Jews of Israel.'"

Well in a sense he did as he was recorded at a meeting actually saying, describing quotes ascribed to him, "And it wasn’t just that, soon you could see it all over on the internet that I said, ‘Jews are like Nazis’ and ‘It’s not anti-Semitic to hate the Jews of Israel.’" Livingstone's prediction came truer than he thought, thanks to the Mail on Sunday and the Jewish Chronicle.

The Jerusalem Post - not exactly the most left wing of papers - has just posted "The Daily Mail originally reported that Livingstone said during his speech that “‘It’s not antisemitic to hate the Jews of Israel,” but the comment was taken out of context, and Livingstone was in fact quoting what he had been accused of saying."

The Mail was not quoting Livingstone out of context. It was deliberately *creating* a context to falsely show Livingstone making a clearly antisemitic statement when he had not. The verbatim report of what he actually said is easy to find, I found it in seconds. Unless of course their reporters are just completely inadequate at their job.

The Mail has not corrected the quote, whereas the JC has simply deleted their heading within the article, reposting as shown, but Google is smarter than them and screenshots exist of their first article even when things are taken down. It's not just the continuing link to a falsehood not yet deleted, the JC created a falsehood and then try to pretend it did not happen. Unless of course their reporters are just completely inadequate at their job. Who else would take anything the Mail said at face value without checking?
The question is, was the editor of the JC disgusted by that first report of what Livingstone did not actually say, or so pleased to find another example of "left wing" antisemitism that judgement went out the window?

I also want to make it clear (forgive me using a Maybot term) that I do believe there is a level of antisemitism on the left, more than I originally thought, and, yes, I have seen examples of it. But this action of the Jewish Chronicle and the Mail on Sunday - creating an example of antisemitism - is as awful as antisemitism itself.


----------



## Shechemite (Apr 2, 2019)

I see Corbyn’s support for Salah (the hate-preacher, not the footballer) is in the news again. 

Damn smears eh


----------



## Shechemite (Apr 4, 2019)

Myself, I blame the Jews


----------



## LDC (Apr 4, 2019)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Myself, I blame the Jews View attachment 166617



Fucking hell that Twitter is full of it. Approvingly re-Tweeting Syria conspiracies as well I note.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 4, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Fucking hell that Twitter is full of it. Approvingly re-Tweeting Syria conspiracies as well I note.


Winstanley was posting Syria loon shit on electronic intifada since the start nearly. His/their lies had _a real effect._


----------



## LDC (Apr 4, 2019)

Yeah, knew about Electronic Intifada (although never saw much as I'm not on Twitter etc.) and didn't know he was one of them.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 4, 2019)

By their friend's shall ye know them.


----------



## Shechemite (Apr 9, 2019)

I see the Dolchstoßlegende is back in fashion

JLM Stabs Labour in the Back


----------



## Serge Forward (Apr 9, 2019)

Yes that article clearly uses an anti semitic trope. But MIB, did you really have to put that horrible anti semitic image in your post?


----------



## Shechemite (Apr 9, 2019)

Serge Forward said:


> Yes that article clearly uses an anti semitic trope. But MIB, did you really have to put that horrible anti semitic image in your post?



Yes. Because it’s horrible. We should look at it. Isn’t that the point of being a revolutionary - we look at horrible stuff.


----------



## Serge Forward (Apr 9, 2019)

No. We fight against horrible stuff.


----------



## belboid (Apr 9, 2019)

Serge Forward said:


> Yes that article clearly uses an anti semitic trope. But MIB, did you really have to put that horrible anti semitic image in your post?


I don't think 99% of the population would see any connection between the well known phrase and a century old bit of propaganda that is barely taught. I suspect most people would connect the phrase more with Caesar.


----------



## Serge Forward (Apr 9, 2019)

Yes, 99% of the population may well see it that way, but do you think the Labour Representation Committee are ignorant of the stab in the back myth? It's kind of up there with "cultural Marxism".


----------



## Shechemite (Apr 9, 2019)

Serge Forward said:


> No. We fight against horrible stuff.



By looking away from it?

There’s a lot of horrible stuff that revolutionaries don’t fight against. It also tends to be the stuff they don’t want to look at.


----------



## Shechemite (Apr 9, 2019)

belboid said:


> I don't think 99% of the population would see any connection between the well known phrase and a century old bit of propaganda that is barely taught. I suspect most people would connect the phrase more with Caesar.



Quite. It’s a dog whistle for scum.


----------



## Serge Forward (Apr 9, 2019)

So, for the next anti racism thread, will you be posting up images of 1930s Alabama lynchings?


----------



## Shechemite (Apr 9, 2019)

Serge Forward said:


> So, for the next anti racism thread, will you be posting up images of Alabama lynchings?



False comparison


----------



## Serge Forward (Apr 9, 2019)

You said we need to look at horrible stuff, so not really.


----------



## belboid (Apr 9, 2019)

Serge Forward said:


> Yes, 99% of the population may well see it that way, but do you think the Labour Representation Committee are ignorant of the stab in the back myth? It's kind of up there with "cultural Marxism".


'kind of' in the sense of 'not really'?

When Jess Philips talked of not stabbing JC in the back, but of stabbing him in the front, was she referencing that myth? Or was she just using a well known phrase? Even if one is aware of that particular usage, it's not the first one to spring to mind.  And considering the length of LRC's reach, it isn't really going to be 'dog whistling' anyone.

Plus, JLM really can fuck off, the right-wing apartheid apologist shitehawks


----------



## Shechemite (Apr 9, 2019)

Serge Forward said:


> You said we need to look at horrible stuff, so not really.



If you like.


----------



## rekil (Apr 13, 2019)

Out of all the Assange cultists to choose from, Aaron Bastani opts to boost 'partisangirl'.



Spoiler







This 'partisangirl'.



Spoiler







Dawn Foster has apparently had _enough_ of his nonsense. WG leftgoss pullout _exclusive_.


----------



## LDC (Apr 13, 2019)

copliker said:


> Out of all the Assange cultists to choose from, Aaron Bastani opts to boost 'partisangirl'.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



He surely can't claim ignorance, partisangirl is one of the best known pro-Assad anti-semitic cunts about.


----------



## rekil (Apr 13, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> He surely can't claim ignorance, partisangirl is one of the best known pro-Assad anti-semitic cunts about.


He's been gravitating towards these loons and Beeleyites for a while now. Maybe Walker will do another video.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 13, 2019)

Has anyone pointed 'the explainer' to the manchild's latest then? Maybe ask him how he would classify the above on his scale? Or Milhouse's dad?


----------



## Shechemite (Apr 13, 2019)

‘The explainer’?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 13, 2019)

Hang on a sec.

Edit: odd can't post twitter link,but just google "michael walker" anti-semitism and you'll see his explaining vid.


----------



## teqniq (Apr 13, 2019)

is this what you mean?


----------



## Shechemite (Apr 13, 2019)

Yes sorry just me being a bit slow this morning


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 13, 2019)

teqniq said:


> is this what you mean?



Yep, ta.


----------



## gentlegreen (Apr 19, 2019)

Labour party passover tweet just cancelled because they put a loaf of leavened bread in it.


Labour delete Passover tweet after people noticed an embarrassing problem

It's a sort of Waitrose / Mediterranean take on it ....

Edit:- worse still, it's the Christian Eucharist isn't it !

They also dropped the grail from the retweet.


----------



## danny la rouge (Apr 19, 2019)

gentlegreen said:


> Labour party passover tweet just cancelled because they put a loaf of leavened bread in it.
> 
> 
> Labour delete Passover tweet after people noticed an embarrassing problem
> ...


You’d think they’d take some advice on stuff like that, given the image problem they’ve been having.


----------



## gentlegreen (Apr 19, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> You’d think they’d take some advice on stuff like that, given the image problem they’ve been having.


There's a video on Facebook at the moment of Jeremy with a Jewish woman in her home showing her family traditions.
Well I suppose at least they're trying..


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 19, 2019)

What are you saying?


----------



## Cid (Apr 19, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> You’d think they’d take some advice on stuff like that, given the image problem they’ve been having.



I mean... paragraph 5 on wiki... It's... Not even really advice is it?


----------



## gentlegreen (Apr 21, 2019)

He's making out Jesus was a 'refugee," now. ,:-


"One of the greatest moral challenges of our time is the refugee crisis

And at Easter we're reminded of the teachings of Jesus, a refugee, whose parents were forced to flee their home. 

I wish everyone in Britain and across the world a happy Easter."


----------



## Humberto (Apr 21, 2019)

making out?


----------



## Humberto (Apr 21, 2019)

Herod wanted him dead, therefore they went to Eygpt. And later Galilee.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 21, 2019)

Humberto said:


> making out?


Innit. no need to believe the big J actually existed for real to be able to understand that the characterisation of such a person fits that of a 'refugee'. Twee yes, but not a pretence.


----------



## Humberto (Apr 21, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> Innit. no need to believe the big J actually existed for real to be able to understand that the characterisation of such a person fits that of a 'refugee'. Twee yes, but not a pretence.





Shit smilies, but yes.


----------



## gentlegreen (Apr 21, 2019)

Humberto said:


> making out?


Well in one of the two entirely contradictory versions of the Nativity story the family took refuge in Egypt to hide from Herod but otherwise his carpenter family moved to work on some king's city project so economic migrants.

It's just cringey following the passover cockup ..
Doubtless he'll be doing similar for Islam, and how many other religions...


----------



## Humberto (Apr 21, 2019)

'lefty hypocrites' = news

Tory brazen class war - lets all simper them to victory.

Sorry, talking out of my head a bit.


----------



## killer b (Apr 21, 2019)

gentlegreen said:


> He's making out Jesus was a 'refugee," now. ,:-
> 
> 
> "One of the greatest moral challenges of our time is the refugee crisis
> ...



Why is this here?


----------



## Libertad (Apr 21, 2019)

gentlegreen said:


> They also dropped the grail



They did that quite a while ago.


----------



## gentlegreen (Apr 21, 2019)

killer b said:


> Why is this here?


Because it demonstrates ineptitude in balancing the unfortunate Passover tweet.
It's a good job Muslims don't have anything on around this time ...


----------



## killer b (Apr 21, 2019)

gentlegreen said:


> Because it demonstrates ineptitude in balancing the unfortunate Passover tweet.


Can you talk me through how it does that? I dont think Corbyn is saying anything in that clip that isn't mainstream Christian thought.


----------



## danny la rouge (Apr 21, 2019)

killer b said:


> Can you talk me through how it does that? I dont think Corbyn is saying anything in that clip that isn't mainstream Christian thought.


I think that’s Gentlegreen’s point.  Corbyn didn’t get Christianity wrong at Easter, but he got Judaism wrong at Passover.  Fair enough. But it’s still a stretch to locate it on this thread. Maybe more one for the other Corbyn thread.  Not that it’s huge issue, other than it would be good to keep this thread for the important matter in hand.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 21, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> I think that’s Gentlegreen’s point.  Corbyn didn’t get Christianity wrong at Easter, but he got Judaism wrong at Passover.  Fair enough. But it’s still a stretch to locate it on this thread. Maybe more one for the other Corbyn thread.  Not that it’s huge issue, other than it would be good to keep this thread for the important matter in hand.


Looks to me like he's saying corbyn did get it wrong - that's why he's challenging what he said with _OMG doesn't he know the new testament contradicts itself!!! _I think it's more to do with watching an Ehrman video than anything else to do with labour...


----------



## killer b (Apr 21, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> I think that’s Gentlegreen’s point.  Corbyn didn’t get Christianity wrong at Easter, but he got Judaism wrong at Passover.  Fair enough. But it’s still a stretch to locate it on this thread. Maybe more one for the other Corbyn thread.  Not that it’s huge issue, other than it would be good to keep this thread for the important matter in hand.


One of Labour's Twitter interns got Judaism wrong at passover tbf.


----------



## danny la rouge (Apr 21, 2019)

killer b said:


> One of Labour's Twitter interns got Judaism wrong at passover tbf.


Yeah. It was shorthand. And I was interpreting somebody else. Possibly incorrectly.

(I’d prefer not to discuss tweets at all, personally).


----------



## killer b (Apr 21, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Yeah. It was shorthand.
> 
> (I’d prefer not to discuss tweets at all, personally).


Sure, me too. Although bizarrely the labour interns minor error was actually reported on a radio 4 news bulletin last week, so I guess it's not just us struggling with perspective.


----------



## danny la rouge (Apr 21, 2019)

killer b said:


> Sure, me too. Although bizarrely the labour interns minor error was actually reported on a radio 4 news bulletin last week, so I guess it's not just us struggling with perspective.


I’m working on perspective in life generally at the moment. It’s a process.


----------



## gentlegreen (Apr 21, 2019)

it just struck me that in the version of the Nativity where the family DID have to take refuge in Egypt they did so with a shed load of gold and incense...


----------



## killer b (Apr 21, 2019)

So you're wanting to make a fatuous point about christianity rather than about labour antisemitism? Gotcha.


----------



## belboid (Apr 21, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> But it’s still a stretch to locate it on this thread.


Most of this thread is a stretch to locate on this thread.


----------



## danny la rouge (Apr 21, 2019)

You deleted at set of inverted commas, belboid


----------



## treelover (Apr 21, 2019)

> Labour MEP candidate 'regrets' suggesting antisemitism was being used to 'smear' Corbyn





> A Labour candidate for the upcoming European elections has said he regrets suggesting the “Israeli lobby” manufactured the party’s antisemitism row.
> 
> Martin Mayer, a former member of Labour’s National Executive Committee (NEC) and retired transport worker, has reportedly been chosen to stand as an MEP for Yorkshire and the Humber.
> 
> ...





Martin Mayer, Unite/Sheffield TUC/Labour MEP candidate(and decent guy) in trouble,  regrets saying A/S used to smear Corbyn.


----------



## Shechemite (May 2, 2019)

belboid said:


> Most of this thread is a stretch to locate on this thread.



Move along, nothing to see here, right wing plot etc etc 

EXCL Labour failed to act for 10 days over member who called for 'march on synagogue'


----------



## teqniq (May 28, 2019)

Interesting timing.

Equality and Human Rights Commission launches full statutory investigation into the Labour Party following complaint by CAA

Equality body launches investigation of Labour antisemitism claims


----------



## killer b (May 28, 2019)

It's only being announced now because it's after the election purdah.


----------



## cantsin (May 28, 2019)

edit - wrong thread


----------



## teqniq (May 28, 2019)

I think you may have posted this on the wrong thread.


----------



## cantsin (May 28, 2019)

teqniq said:


> I think you may have posted this on the wrong thread.



lol, I think I did, ta !


----------



## sleaterkinney (May 31, 2019)

Still a member of the NEC


----------



## Jeff Robinson (May 31, 2019)

sleaterkinney said:


> Still a member of the NEC




The first two of those claims are 100% true - there was an al-jazeera documentary about it. Not sure about the third one.


----------



## killer b (May 31, 2019)

I've never watched that 'the lobby' doc, but know every bit of info in it in minute detail because every time someone says 'labour antisemitism' on the internet, someone else pastes a link to it underneath.


----------



## agricola (May 31, 2019)

Willsman suspended - Labour suspends NEC member over antisemitism claims


----------



## Jeff Robinson (May 31, 2019)

killer b said:


> I've never watched that 'the lobby' doc, but know every bit of info in it in minute detail because every time someone says 'labour antisemitism' on the internet, someone else pastes a link to it underneath.



It's pretty pertinent in this context isn't it?


----------



## cantsin (May 31, 2019)

agricola said:


> Willsman suspended - Labour suspends NEC member over antisemitism claims



he had to be suspended after that - sounds f*cking unhinged.

On  seperate, but obvs related note, can anyone on here point us to any kind of response to the Al Jaz doc . or debunk / defense of it, from anyone connected to LFI etc etc ? Have never seen anything said about it, and have had a quick search


----------



## 8ball (May 31, 2019)

agricola said:


> Willsman suspended - Labour suspends NEC member over antisemitism claims



That's a nicely tangled ball of Anti-Semitism and Anti-Zionism and Anti-Israeli state things going on there - should be useful to a few people.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (May 31, 2019)

I don't see anything he said as either 'unhinged' or 'antisemitic'. At best, the comments were hyperbolic, the sort of expression that is to be expected in informal, private conversation. It's a fact that an Israeli diplomat did work with LFI to discredit MPs critical of Israel's state-terrorism against the Palestinian people. The fact that there has been *zero* fallout for MPs like Joan Ryan and Tom Watson - whose work as LFI members is essentially to sanitise brutal apartheid colonial violence and to discredit its vocal opponents - but an NEC member has been suspended for talking about this in an informal, private conversation in a slightly clumsy way, just shows how shallow and reactive "anti-racism" has become in the social media age. 

Israeli diplomat caught on camera plotting to 'take down' UK MPs


----------



## 8ball (May 31, 2019)

Jeff Robinson said:


> I don't see anything he said as either 'unhinged' or 'antisemitic'. At best, the comments were hyperbolic, the sort of expression that is to be expected in informal, private conversation. It's a fact that an Israeli diplomat did work with LFI to discredit MPs critical of Israel's state-terrorism against the Palestinian people. The fact that there has been *zero* fallout for MPs like Joan Ryan and Tom Watson - whose work as LFI members is essentially to sanitise brutal apartheid colonial violence and to discredit its vocal opponents - but an NEC member has been suspended for talking about this in an informal, private conversation in a slightly clumsy way, just shows how shallow and reactive "anti-racism" has become in the social media age.
> 
> Israeli diplomat caught on camera plotting to 'take down' UK MPs



I didn’t mean the entirety of the tangled ball was contained in this man’s comments, but media discussion is going to be such.

Your point about the plausibility of infiltration is fair enough.

Edit: JFTR it wasn’t me that used the term “unhinged”, but the claim of anti-semitism is clearly part of the package.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (May 31, 2019)

8ball said:


> I didn’t mean the entirety of the tangled ball was contained in this man’s comments, but media discussion is going to be such.
> 
> Your point about the plausibility of infiltration is fair enough.
> 
> Edit: JFTR it wasn’t me that used the term “unhinged”.



Sorry for misinterpreting your point, my post a response to you and cantsin.


----------



## 8ball (May 31, 2019)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Sorry for misinterpreting your point, my post a response to you and cantsin.



Np - I just edited for clarity on that before seeing your response.


----------



## pseudonarcissus (May 31, 2019)

Jeff Robinson said:


> At best, the comments were hyperbolic, the sort of expression that is to be expected in informal, private conversation.


When being interviewed by an author/journalist? A little discipline on “doing media” might not go amiss. The guy is plain stupid, whatever the rights and wrongs


----------



## teqniq (Jun 6, 2019)

Jeremy Corbyn Likened To Hitler By Tory Leadership Candidate Matt Hancock


Here, essentially is what this is all about:



> ...In a highly personal attack, he said: “This contest is not about who is the leader for the next six months.
> 
> “This contest is about who is the leader for the next six years and beyond.
> 
> “The Conservative party has to get this right. If we don’t, we could end up with the first anti-Semitic leader of a Western nation since the Second World War.”...


----------



## The Pale King (Jun 6, 2019)

I can understand why he doesn't as it would dominate the news agenda for ever more, but Corbyn needs to start suing here


----------



## killer b (Jun 6, 2019)

He really doesn't.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 6, 2019)

teqniq said:


> Jeremy Corbyn Likened To Hitler By Tory Leadership Candidate Matt Hancock
> 
> 
> Here, essentially is what this is all about:


are the hungarians not western enough? i know they've only been in the eu 15 years and in nato since 1999. but there's no denying viktor orban's anti-semitic and he's been hungarian leader for a while


----------



## Mr Moose (Jun 6, 2019)

Corbyn would be better to challenge through an ‘open letter’ type exchange in the newspapers. 

‘Matt Hancock has accused me of AS. This is a very painful accusation. I passionately believe I am not for the following reasons. What views does he think I hold and what evidence does he have that I do’?

Hancock wouldn’t be able to go further than what is already in the public arena or he could libel. Some trade in whataboutisms could make Hancock mildly uncomfortable, Hungary, Trump, Islamophobia, what is your anti-racism record etc


----------



## killer b (Jun 6, 2019)

Or he could just ignore the freak.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 6, 2019)

killer b said:


> Or he could just ignore the freak.


Yep, why play into Hancock's desperate attempt to attract his first cab backer?


----------



## Mr Moose (Jun 6, 2019)

killer b said:


> Or he could just ignore the freak.



The Royal Family can pull that off. Hasn’t really worked for Corbyn thus far. Showing a bit of passion might help him.


----------



## The Pale King (Jun 6, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Yep, why play into Hancock's desperate attempt to attract his first cab backer?



Sure, it's no doubt too late for that, but this is being normalised through repetition


----------



## cantsin (Jun 6, 2019)

rachel riley similarly covering herself in glory, as per


----------



## 8ball (Jun 6, 2019)

cantsin said:


> rachel riley similarly covering herself in glory, as per
> 
> View attachment 173417



You won't believe the things he used to say about the Huguenots!


----------



## Dogsauce (Jun 6, 2019)

Desperate stuff. He must be frightening them again.


----------



## Mr Moose (Jun 6, 2019)

Corbyn actually fought on the Nazi side in the war. FACT.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Jun 6, 2019)

I know he's knocking on but would be surprised if Corbyn argued for anything during the second world war


----------



## Sprocket. (Jun 6, 2019)

It was possible to be anti Semitic and fight Hitler. Ask Stalin.


----------



## killer b (Jun 26, 2019)

Creepy Chris is back in. Great stuff. 

EXCL Chris Williamson is allowed back into Labour party after suspension over anti-semitism rows


----------



## Proper Tidy (Jun 26, 2019)

Ugh. Vaz arguing it should be a warning because it's a marginal seat too - grim in itself but just from a strategic perspective surely he's more liability than asset electorally


----------



## treelover (Jun 26, 2019)

killer b said:


> Creepy Chris is back in. Great stuff.
> 
> EXCL Chris Williamson is allowed back into Labour party after suspension over anti-semitism rows



pathetic, the optics are going to look bad as well.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jun 27, 2019)

killer b said:


> Creepy Chris is back



I hadn’t stopped to consider this before but you are right, he really is a massive weirdo  

Anyway, it’s good to see labour types across social media celebrating his return as a victory for their equally weird and fucked up imagining of what socialism should be


----------



## killer b (Jun 27, 2019)

my social media is full of people saying they'll leave tbh


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jun 27, 2019)

killer b said:


> my social media is full of people saying they'll leave tbh



Depressingly it seems the RMT represented him and are proclaiming this as a victory. That they, CPB union cranks and mindless ‘Corbyn for PM’ fan types are heralding this as a win has to provoke the response ‘a victory for what exactly’.


----------



## killer b (Jun 27, 2019)

I'm not seeing many of those types - the Corbyn loyalists seem to be pushing the 'williamson is no leftwinger' line, everyone else is rolling their eyes.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jun 27, 2019)

killer b said:


> I'm not seeing many of those types - the Corbyn loyalists seem to be pushing the 'williamson is no leftwinger' line, everyone else is rolling their eyes.



Yes, it’s good to see his previous career as a Blair supporting, PFI fan getting a run out but you are bending the stick too far to suggest this is the common response


----------



## Proper Tidy (Jun 27, 2019)

The more Theory strand of Corbynites rejected Williamson a while ago, the emotive/cranky/hashtag types definitively haven't


----------



## killer b (Jun 27, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Yes, it’s good to see his previous career as a Blair supporting, PFI fan getting a run out but you are bending the stick too far to suggest this is the common response


I'm only reporting what I've seen! I've mostly excised the cranks mind...


----------



## Proper Tidy (Jun 27, 2019)

#chickencoup


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jun 27, 2019)

killer b said:


> I'm only reporting what I've seen! I've mostly excised the cranks mind...


 
Probably time to do the same. I spend too long confirming what I already know about the loons. Very disappointed with the RMT though, especially Hedley and Dempsey


----------



## cantsin (Jun 27, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Yes, it’s good to see his previous career as a Blair supporting, PFI fan getting a run out but you are bending the stick too far to suggest this is the common response



his previous centrism is weird to hear about, but do wonder if helps explain stuff : zeal of the late convert = less discerning/discriminating, + especially, the all consuming naive/reflexive anti US imperialism = "our enemies enemy is our friend " mindset , plus open to Vanessa Beeley crankery, over focus on Israel etc, without actually knowing who Beeley is , who Gilad Altzman is .


----------



## belboid (Jun 27, 2019)

cantsin said:


> his previous centrism is weird to hear about, but do wonder if helps explain stuff : zeal of the late convert = less discerning/discriminating, + especially, the all consuming naive/reflexive anti US imperialism = "our enemies enemy is our friend " mindset , plus open to Vanessa Beeley crankery, over focus on Israel etc, without actually knowing who Beeley is , who Gilad Altzman is .


he's a soft Stalinist who shut up and went with the flow as a good Party Man.


----------



## teqniq (Jul 8, 2019)

Jewish support for Chris Williamson | Letter


----------



## 19force8 (Jul 9, 2019)

teqniq said:


> Jewish support for Chris Williamson | Letter


Removed: article


----------



## Whagwan (Jul 9, 2019)

3 Lords have resigned the whip accusing JC directly of Anti-semitism.  Think they'll be staggered resignations from now until the Panorama tomorrow...


----------



## teqniq (Jul 9, 2019)

19force8 said:


> Removed: article



Lol, investigation of what I wonder?


----------



## teqniq (Jul 9, 2019)

Ok here's a screenshot of the article:





link to list of names


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 9, 2019)

Whagwan said:


> 3 Lords have resigned the whip accusing JC directly of Anti-semitism.  Think they'll be staggered resignations from now until the Panorama tomorrow...


Given the easy access to cheap booze in the Palace of Westminster that's no surprise


----------



## LDC (Jul 9, 2019)

Decent list of why Williamson is a cunt.

BobFromBrockley: What's wrong with Chris Williamson?


----------



## teqniq (Jul 9, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Decent list of why Williamson is a cunt.
> 
> BobFromBrockley: What's wrong with Chris Williamson?


Yeah that's fair enough. I'd forgotten about that page. Nevertheless I object to the Board of Deputies (for it would appear to be most likely them) getting the letter pulled in what is effectively censorship. So I went looking for cached pages, screenshotted it and put it up on general principles.


----------



## Geri (Jul 9, 2019)

teqniq said:


> Ok here's a screenshot of the article:
> 
> View attachment 176871
> 
> ...




If they are all Jewish then I will eat my own earwax. Some of them aren't even real.


----------



## teqniq (Jul 9, 2019)

Which ones are those? Genuinely interested.


----------



## Geri (Jul 9, 2019)

teqniq said:


> Which ones are those? Genuinely interested.


 
I am sceptical about the one from "Bristol CLP" as there is no such CLP. I also googled his name and couldn't find any trace of him. 

The other Bristol ones I do know. One was a Facebook friend until I unfriended him, the other is a lawyer who is a friend of several friends. Quite a decent bloke by all accounts so I was a bit surprised to see his name there.


----------



## Rivendelboy (Jul 9, 2019)

The Chris Williamson faithful won't be persuaded it seems.

Not from my experience (on _twitter_ ffs)

I don't know how this situation resolves without a split


----------



## Rivendelboy (Jul 9, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Decent list of why Williamson is a cunt.
> 
> BobFromBrockley: What's wrong with Chris Williamson?


I've shared that with a few peeps on Twitter. 

They aren't really interested, I'm not sure how they are going to be persuaded


----------



## 19force8 (Jul 10, 2019)

Geri said:


> I am sceptical about the one from "Bristol CLP" as there is no such CLP. I also googled his name and couldn't find any trace of him.
> 
> The other Bristol ones I do know. One was a Facebook friend until I unfriended him, the other is a lawyer who is a friend of several friends. Quite a decent bloke by all accounts so I was a bit surprised to see his name there.


The lawyer seems to have been doxxed just hours ago.


----------



## LDC (Jul 10, 2019)

Rivendelboy said:


> I've shared that with a few peeps on Twitter.
> 
> They aren't really interested, I'm not sure how they are going to be persuaded



Yeah, I had a conversation with a friend last week about this. He's critically supportive of Labour from a long term socialist position, and is mostly pretty sensible, but just can't see this as anything other than an attack on those politics, and he won't hear a bad word about WIlliamson. It's really similar as arguing with anti-vaxxers or conspiracy theorists, they just have this blind spot that is impossible to breach.


----------



## Geri (Jul 10, 2019)

19force8 said:


> The lawyer seems to have been doxxed just hours ago.


 
So I see!


----------



## Rivendelboy (Jul 10, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Yeah, I had a conversation with a friend last week about this. He's critically supportive of Labour from a long term socialist position, and is mostly pretty sensible, but just can't see this as anything other than an attack on those politics, and he won't hear a bad word about WIlliamson. It's really similar as arguing with anti-vaxxers or conspiracy theorists, they just have this blind spot that is impossible to breach.


It's not similar, it _ is _arguing with conspiracy theorists. I don't think these are people who hate on jews per se, but who believe in a particular worldview that reduces Jewish place or history in society to simplistic and thus antisemitic levels: "jews run the media" for example. People who look at complex world events and try to understand systems of power and the players involved and come away with a simplistic narrative. Chris is the wronged party therefore he can do no wrong. But it can both be true that Chris has been wronged - in the case of his labour apologetic statement has been misrepresented - and has done wrong - shitty voting record, retweeting awful people.


----------



## LDC (Jul 10, 2019)

Rivendelboy said:


> It's not similar, it _ is _arguing with conspiracy theorists.



Indeed, I was thinking that as I typed!


----------



## Dogsauce (Jul 10, 2019)

There is a clear distinction between believing ‘the Jews run the media’ bollocks and recognising that there are those in the media disingenuously using anti-semitism as a stick to beat Corbyn with. Unfortunately it’s the likes of Williamson giving those critics plenty of ammunition.

& the defensiveness/anger of some Labour supporters faced with these attacks Is understandable when for example 40% of Tory members in a recent poll said they’d like Britain to have a smaller Muslim population (which maybe needed following up with the question ‘how?’) & all the other racist bollocks the other party seems to get a pass for.  But y’know, get your fucking house in order and have a think about what you say and how it might sound.


----------



## killer b (Jul 10, 2019)

Rivendelboy said:


> I don't know how this situation resolves without a split


A Williamson crank walkout would be of massive benefit to the Labour Party. It'd be win/win for them.


----------



## Rivendelboy (Jul 10, 2019)

Dogsauce said:


> There is a clear distinction between believing ‘the Jews run the media’ bollocks and recognising that there are those in the media disingenuously using anti-semitism as a stick to beat Corbyn with. Unfortunately it’s the likes of Williamson giving those critics plenty of ammunition.
> 
> & the defensiveness/anger of some Labour supporters faced with these attacks Is understandable when for example 40% of Tory members in a recent poll said they’d like Britain to have a smaller Muslim population (which maybe needed following up with the question ‘how?’) & all the other racist bollocks the other party seems to get a pass for.  But y’know, get your fucking house in order and have a think about what you say and how it might sound.


Of course. To put (IMHO) all this very simply: there is wrong on both sides. There are bad faith actors on both sides. I don't believe Chris is _racist_ in the "i hate the jews and want them to suffer" sense (which isn't the totality of that which qualifies as antisemitism of course), but he does support awful people and their ideas. Perhaps naively, who knows. 
Conversely there are those who correctly speak out against the support for holocaust deniers and antisemites etc who also use antisemitism to fulfill their anti-corbyn agenda. 

In other words, it's as muddy as fuck.


----------



## 19force8 (Jul 10, 2019)

Rivendelboy said:


> It's not similar, it _ is _arguing with conspiracy theorists. I don't think these are people who hate on jews per se, but who believe in a particular worldview that reduces Jewish place or history in society to simplistic and thus antisemitic levels: "jews run the media" for example. People who look at complex world events and try to understand systems of power and the players involved and come away with a simplistic narrative. Chris is the wronged party therefore he can do no wrong. But it can both be true that Chris has been wronged - in the case of his labour apologetic statement has been misrepresented - and has done wrong - shitty voting record, retweeting awful people.


This is how witch hunts work. They don't target the pure and unimpeachable. They go after those with a sketchy record, the oddballs, the chancers, etc. It's the reason we want our union secretaries and stewards to keep their noses clean.

Another way they work is to cause people to circle the wagons. Members know the Labour Party isn't institutionally anti-Semitic (although it has been in the past) and that the leader isn't an anti-Semite (although they have been in the past). So when they hear these accusations being run almost daily (in fact hourly on Twitter) they start pushing back.

There is a sense out there that throwing more members on the bonfire won't stop the witch hunt. That a line has to be drawn and defended or the party will be torn apart.

It may be unfortunate that the line has to be Williamson (him being a bit of a cunt an' all), but with the case against him being so weak and the political interference so blatant it would represent a massive defeat for the left in Labour for him to be expelled.

I say "the left" because despite some of his record his was the loudest voice calling for mandatory reselection of MPs. Without which (imo) the whole Corbyn project will be destroyed by the 5th columnists in the PLP. That's assuming Labour can even get a majority.


----------



## Rivendelboy (Jul 10, 2019)

killer b said:


> A Williamson crank walkout would be of massive benefit to the Labour Party. It'd be win/win for them.


It depends on the numbers. They are largely all Corbyn supporters: would they go on to vote Labour in a GE if they were booted out?


----------



## killer b (Jul 10, 2019)

A good number of my mates left in the party cancelled their membership when Williamson was re-admitted the other week. Keeping him in has a cost too. Who cares what the cranks do once they've left?


----------



## 19force8 (Jul 10, 2019)

It's also instructive that during the recent reinstate/unreinstate kerfuffle many of the talking head types were "Williamson's a cunt and deserves it." Then once Watson [spit] got his way the knives came out for them too. For instance Ash Sarkar being called an anti-Semite on Twitter.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Jul 10, 2019)

killer b said:


> A Williamson crank walkout would be of massive benefit to the Labour Party. It'd be win/win for them.


Minimal negative impact electorally (crank vote not significant and thinly spread) and as you say would demonstrate labour taking seriously so win win. Let them run witchhunt road shows in community centres.


----------



## LDC (Jul 10, 2019)

19force8 said:


> It's also instructive that during the recent reinstate/unreinstate kerfuffle many of the talking head types were "Williamson's a cunt and deserves it." Then once Watson [spit] got his way the knives came out for them too. For instance Ash Sarkar being called an anti-Semite on Twitter.



Seen Novara and Sarkar really get it on social media (shown I hasten to add, I avoid that horror generally) for not supporting Williamson (despite their earlier fawning for him), with plenty saying they were now on the wrong side. The Canary have predictably been supportive of Williamson still.


----------



## 19force8 (Jul 10, 2019)

killer b said:


> A good number of my mates left in the party cancelled their membership when Williamson was re-admitted the other week. Keeping him in has a cost too. Who cares what the cranks do once they've left?


Of course it does. That's witch hunts for you - there will always another witch until either you cede control of the party or fight back. When you do draw the line there will be some who don't like that particular witch. But the alternative is watching a bunch of cunts like Watson, Hodge, etc, etc sabotage the party week in week out


----------



## cantsin (Jul 10, 2019)

19force8 said:


> The lawyer seems to have been doxxed just hours ago.



yep, which was f*cking disgraceful - jewish lefty, bit obsessed, too close to the LLV uber cranks to be trusted in any political sense, but for the Gnasher / 12 Scouts crew to turn his life upside down cos they disagreed with his politics is just bollocks - yet again they're simply arming the cranks to the teeth, whilst achieving nothing in the actual fight against AS -  fuck them


----------



## killer b (Jul 10, 2019)

19force8 said:


> Of course it does. That's witch hunts for you - there will always another witch until either you cede control of the party or fight back. When you do draw the line there will be some who don't like that particular witch. But the alternative is watching a bunch of cunts like Watson, Hodge, etc, etc sabotage the party week in week out


Williamson is a wrecker who should be fucked off. Wherever the line is to be drawn, it shouldn't be under him.


----------



## 19force8 (Jul 10, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Seen Novara and Sarkar really get it on social media (shown I hasten to add, I avoid that horror generally) for not supporting Williamson (despite their earlier fawning for him), with plenty saying they were now on the wrong side. The Canary have predictably been supportive of Williamson still.


Absolutely, yet many of those same critics (of the Novara crew) were sympathetic (with a hint of told you so) when they came under attack from the luvvy brigade.


----------



## LDC (Jul 10, 2019)

killer b said:


> Williamson is a wrecker who should be fucked off. Wherever the line is to be drawn, it shouldn't be under him.



Preferably _through _him.


----------



## 19force8 (Jul 10, 2019)

killer b said:


> Williamson is a wrecker who should be fucked off. Wherever the line is to be drawn, it shouldn't be under him.


Like I said - witch hunts 101


----------



## killer b (Jul 10, 2019)

throw him under an actual bus.


----------



## Rivendelboy (Jul 10, 2019)

killer b said:


> A good number of my mates left in the party cancelled their membership when Williamson was re-admitted the other week. Keeping him in has a cost too. Who cares what the cranks do once they've left?


You care because in or out they still have a vote during a GE.


----------



## killer b (Jul 10, 2019)

There isn't very many of them though. The votes lost by them leaving (and who else would they vote for anyway?) would be - at most - tens to hundreds in any given constituency. absolutely fuck all.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Jul 10, 2019)

I'm sure the net loss of 0.001% across each constituency would be sustainable


----------



## Rivendelboy (Jul 10, 2019)

cantsin said:


> yep, which was f*cking disgraceful - jewish lefty, bit obsessed, too close to the LLV uber cranks to be trusted in any political sense, but for the Gnasher / 12 Scouts crew to turn his life upside down cos they disagreed with his politics is just bollocks - yet again they're simply arming the cranks to the teeth, whilst achieving nothing in the actual fight against AS -  fuck them


Wait, Labour Left Voice are bad as well? 

Just who can be trusted in all of this? Piecing it together is a farking nightmare!


----------



## cantsin (Jul 10, 2019)

Rivendelboy said:


> Wait, Labour Left Voice are bad as well?
> 
> Just who can be trusted in all of this? Piecing it together is a farking nightmare!



the whole thing's a stinking mess, and it's never easy to know who to trust on either side, but I remember first hand LLV / Sally Easman being dodgy as f*ck ( and by  first hand, as in, I remember the early LLV tweets, before she got a bit cleverer,  and am not just using the unnamed source below ) 

Labour’s left voice of Holocaust denialLabour’s left voice of Holocaust denial


----------



## Geri (Jul 10, 2019)

cantsin said:


> yep, which was f*cking disgraceful - jewish lefty, bit obsessed, too close to the LLV uber cranks to be trusted in any political sense, but for the Gnasher / 12 Scouts crew to turn his life upside down cos they disagreed with his politics is just bollocks - yet again they're simply arming the cranks to the teeth, whilst achieving nothing in the actual fight against AS -  fuck them


 
Although apparently (I say this because I've never seen any tweets from this account) he was encouraging people to do the same.


----------



## cantsin (Jul 10, 2019)

Geri said:


> Although apparently (I say this because I've never seen any tweets from this account) he was encouraging people to do the same.



that would put a whole different angle on it for me, will keep eyes open for evidence ( takes deep breath, resolves not to go screaming off to twatter to search )


----------



## Rivendelboy (Jul 10, 2019)

cantsin said:


> the whole thing's a stinking mess, and it's never easy to know who to trust on either side, but I remember first hand LLV / Sally Easman being dodgy as f*ck ( and by  first hand, as in, I remember the early LLV tweets, before she got a bit cleverer,  and am not just using the unnamed source below )
> 
> Labour’s left voice of Holocaust denialLabour’s left voice of Holocaust denial


Thanks. Can I ask, is that representative of the group? Or is that person the sole owner of that account?

No excuse for holocaust denial ffs


----------



## LDC (Jul 10, 2019)

cantsin said:


> the whole thing's a stinking mess, and it's never easy to know who to trust on either side, but I remember first hand LLV / Sally Easman being dodgy as f*ck ( and by  first hand, as in, I remember the early LLV tweets, before she got a bit cleverer,  and am not just using the unnamed source below )
> 
> Labour’s left voice of Holocaust denialLabour’s left voice of Holocaust denial



The Canary and Kerry-Anne Mendoza making an appearance in there, no surprise there. They're fucking poison, sooner they collapse the better.


----------



## killer b (Jul 10, 2019)

Labour Left Voice isn't a group, it's one person.


----------



## Rivendelboy (Jul 10, 2019)

killer b said:


> Labour Left Voice isn't a group, it's one person.


Ok, thanks. I did actually think it was a group. 

Also does anyone know the truth of this claim: 

I don't know the guy (hope to god I've not linked to a racist!), but his argument is that the reason Labour are struggling to deal with allegations of antisemitism is because Ian McNichol took all the casework with him (bizarrely) when he left and Jennie Formby has been trying to clear the backlog which hasn't been made easier by not having access to the case files.

Or something.


----------



## LDC (Jul 10, 2019)

Rivendelboy said:


> his argument is that the reason Labour are struggling to deal with allegations of antisemitism is because Ian McNichol took all the casework with him (bizarrely) when he left and Jennie Formby has been trying to clear the backlog which hasn't been made easier by not having access to the case files.
> 
> Or something.



And the dog ate my homework.


----------



## killer b (Jul 10, 2019)

Rivendelboy said:


> Ok, thanks. I did actually think it was a group.


I guess that's what they want you to think.


----------



## Rivendelboy (Jul 10, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> And the dog ate my homework.


Ok, fair enough. I didn't really know either way. As I've said it's tough to learn the truth about all this (or I'm fucking lazy).


----------



## LDC (Jul 10, 2019)

Rivendelboy said:


> Ok, fair enough. I didn't really know either way. As I've said it's tough to learn the truth about all this (or I'm fucking lazy).



I was only raising a skeptical eyebrow, I have no idea either way if that's the real reason for the delays.


----------



## cantsin (Jul 10, 2019)

killer b said:


> Labour Left Voice isn't a group, it's one person.



Though in response to the above , Easman has now managed to draft in others to help spread the load / try and add some legitimacy, eg : ‘ Wolfie “ etc


----------



## cantsin (Jul 10, 2019)

Rivendelboy said:


> Ok, thanks. I did actually think it was a group.
> 
> Also does anyone know the truth of this claim:
> 
> ...




That all as maybe but Damo here was last night calling mark steel a ‘ has been ‘ and ‘ defender of apartheid ‘ for making a v anodyne comment re : a fairly reasoned ( tho wring imo )  attempt to debunk the Graun / 100 Jewish signatories letter ( which Easman signed ) - net result , Steel , after 30 Years of activism / solidarity reflecting on whether the games up in LP - tldr : Damos  another plonker


----------



## Rivendelboy (Jul 10, 2019)

cantsin said:


> That all as maybe but Damo here was last night calling mark steel a ‘ has been ‘ and ‘ defender of apartheid ‘ for making a v anodyne comment re : a fairly reasoned ( tho wring imo )  attempt to debunk the Graun / 100 Jewish signatories letter ( which Easman signed ) - net result , Steel , after 30 Years of activism / solidarity reflecting on whether the games up in LP - tldr : Damos  another plonker



That doesn't appear to be the same person I had cited. Have I misunderstood?


----------



## cantsin (Jul 10, 2019)

Rivendelboy said:


> That doesn't appear to be the same person I had cited. Have I misunderstood?



shit no, sorry, was looking on phone ( the Corbyn excuse - it really is a factor when it comes to images / photos etc imo )


----------



## 19force8 (Jul 10, 2019)

cantsin said:


> That all as maybe but Damo here was last night calling mark steel a ‘ has been ‘ and ‘ defender of apartheid ‘ for making a v anodyne comment re : a fairly reasoned ( tho wring imo )  attempt to debunk the Graun / 100 Jewish signatories letter ( which Easman signed ) - net result , Steel , after 30 Years of activism / solidarity reflecting on whether the games up in LP - tldr : Damos  another plonker



Hmm, looks to me like he was calling Ally the apartheid apologist. Which seems standard fare in this milieu. No idea if it's justified though.


----------



## Mr Moose (Jul 10, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> And the dog ate my homework.



The files thing sounds like cobblers. An individual can’t simply waltz off with an organisation’s files, which are in any case, surely on a computer and not in a carrier bag.

This aside, disciplinaries in any organisation can be a nightmare. Most organisations or regulators take months/years to conclude them especially when it gets lawyery. 

That doesn’t excuse the poor job done around the suspensions of some individuals like Williamson, (or the initial lack of action wholesale) but there is also likely to be some people in there trying to do an honest job. Whether they are being deliberately frustrated in it would need evidencing.

It also doesn’t excuse the apparent inability of the leader to win friends in the Jewish community and reassure.


----------



## chilango (Jul 10, 2019)

I've got Panorama on in the background, not really watching it, but what's washing over me is not good.


----------



## Rivendelboy (Jul 11, 2019)

Mr Moose said:


> The files thing sounds like cobblers. An individual can’t simply waltz off with an organisation’s files, which are in any case, surely on a computer and not in a carrier bag.
> 
> This aside, disciplinaries in any organisation can be a nightmare. Most organisations or regulators take months/years to conclude them especially when it gets lawyery.
> 
> ...


I asked the guy for a source and he got back to me with a Skwawkbox link. I gather they aren't taken super seriously on here, but it's presented for consideration. I'm not sure whether or not to trust the Skwawkbox, but I've never dived deeply enough to find out.

Excl: departing right-wing Labour staff ‘shredded’ 1000s of disciplinary docs – but gave copies to press

Doesn't really present anything unless you're prepared to trust the site.


----------



## killer b (Jul 11, 2019)

Rivendelboy said:


> I'm not sure whether or not to trust the Skwawkbox, but I've never dived deeply enough to find out.


Why wouldn't you, before sharing their content?


----------



## Proper Tidy (Jul 11, 2019)

Didn't watch panorama, should I bother?


----------



## Whagwan (Jul 11, 2019)

Thread here detailling the claimed lies of omission in it:


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 11, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Didn't watch panorama, should I bother?



Not really. There was nothing new in it. The programme did come over as a load of Blairite spinning designed to damage their opponents. The evidence base for their claims was thin to put it mildly. 

That’s not to detract from the very real issues that arise from Corbyn’s ‘anti-imperialism of fools’ worldview, or the undoubted presence of large numbers of cranks and even genuine racists among the labour hinterland. But last nights ‘expose’ added nothing in my view.


----------



## Rivendelboy (Jul 11, 2019)

killer b said:


> Why wouldn't you, before sharing their content?


I am just doing my due diligence 
. I quoted that guy and it seems only fair to mention his response and put it in context

I don't think one quote from the skwawk is a problem


----------



## 19force8 (Jul 11, 2019)

Mr Moose said:


> The files thing sounds like cobblers. An individual can’t simply waltz off with an organisation’s files, which are in any case, surely on a computer and not in a carrier bag.


That's a very weird criticism.

Of course an individual can take an organisation's files - see wikileaks [also, my very detailed personnel file went missing after I retired  ]

Files on a computer are easier to nick and even easier to destroy. A lot will depend on the security and back up procedures. However, it's likely that sensitive material isn't kept on the cloud, or even a central server, making it relatively simple to wipe them.

Nobody keeps files in a carrier bag unless it's a carrier bag full of thumb drives.


----------



## 19force8 (Jul 11, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Not really. There was nothing new in it. The programme did come over as a load of Blairite spinning designed to damage their opponents. The evidence base for their claims was thin to put it mildly.
> 
> That’s not to detract from the very real issues that arise from Corbyn’s ‘anti-imperialism of fools’ worldview, or the undoubted presence of large numbers of cranks and even genuine racists among the labour hinterland. But last nights ‘expose’ added nothing in my view.


There's also criticism that Panorama borrowed some extras from another documentary*

* The Lobby


----------



## Mr Moose (Jul 11, 2019)

19force8 said:


> That's a very weird criticism.
> 
> Of course an individual can take an organisation's files - see wikileaks [also, my very detailed personnel file went missing after I retired  ]
> 
> ...



What I meant was it happen and then nothing happens to the ex staff or is this the NDA action?


----------



## 19force8 (Jul 11, 2019)

Mr Moose said:


> What I meant was it happen and then nothing happens to the ex staff or is this the NDA action?


You're right, I suspect it's part of the reasoning behind the NDAs. Although how an NDA would prevent something malicious like this I don't know. Might be able to recover the pay off, but at what cost?

Also, very hard to identify which ex staff did it (wiped files and leaked to Daily Fail) without intensive computer forensic work and even then only if good security systems and practices in place.


----------



## 19force8 (Jul 11, 2019)

Now Mark Steel is being denounced for this:

Mark Steel: No wonder Labour antisemitism got the ‘Panorama’ treatment – Tory racism is way too much to fit into an hour

Here:


----------



## Whagwan (Jul 12, 2019)

Tom Watson being a vile wannabee Machiavelli as per:



Jennie Formby's (Labour General Secretary currently having Chemo for breast cancer) reply to his open letter:





> Furthermore, traducing my reputation and publicly attacking me when you know I am undergoing chemotherapy and am unable to respond in the media, is another example of the inappropriate way in which you choose to discuss this issue...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## andysays (Jul 12, 2019)

Whagwan said:


> Tom Watson being a vile wannabee Machiavelli as per:
> 
> 
> 
> Jennie Formby's (Labour General Secretary currently having Chemo for breast cancer) reply to his open letter:


Yeah, I saw reports of Formby's response earlier, *in the media *funnily enough.

This in no way detracts from Watson's general wankerdom, in case that needs to be said.


----------



## 1%er (Jul 12, 2019)

Having just watched the recent bbc panorama documentary, it reminded me of a documentary I watched a while ago made by aljazeera called The Lobby, a four-part series produced by Al Jazeera’s Investigative Unit about an Israeli campaign to interfere with domestic politics in the UK (not to be confused with the American documentary of the same name).

The series exposed how covert operations conducted by Israel were promoting a foreign country’s agenda within Britain’s political parties. An undercover journalist, ‘Robin’, was hired to secretly record the activities of an Israeli diplomat as he tried to influence student council elections and set up a pro-Israel youth group in the Labour Party. The series also included evidence of a plot, hatched by the Israeli official and a British civil servant, to “take down” a government minister [part 4] who was critical of Jewish-only settlements in the West Bank. 

Pro-Israel advocacy groups made a series of complaints about ‘The Lobby’ to the Office of Communications (Ofcom), the quasi-government regulator that ensures fairness and accuracy in British television journalism. The complainants levelled a range of charges at Al Jazeera, including anti-Semitism, bias and infringement of privacy. After an eight-month investigation, Ofcom’s 60-page ruling rejected each complaint and vindicated Al Jazeera’s journalism on every count, the network has said in a statement.

To save you having to search for it, I have helpfully posted links to all 4 episodes available on youtube below;
Episode 1
Episode 2
Episode 3
Episode 4

Its well worth watching, it isn't talking heads making claims without providing evidence to back-up their claims. This is footage showing real people and how they are working to achieve their aims.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Jul 12, 2019)

Oh well in that case there can't possibly be any antisemitism in the Labour party. The scales have fallen from my eyes.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 12, 2019)

1%er said:


> Its well worth watching, it isn't talking heads making claims without providing evidence to back-up their claims. This is footage showing real people and how they are working to achieve their aims.



Real jews, just doing jew things. _Working to achieve their aims. _Their hidden malevolent nefarious_ anti-british _aims_._

Not state things. _Jew things._


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 12, 2019)

From 1868's insertion of bred in the bone swp sectarianism defend the left/CW model of this into real life labour branch or CLP meetings (that's CW the right wing thatcherite privatiser  when in power) to wells most recent oh i don't know about skwak box etc  i'm not sure what's more disgusting. There are a few 'it's only to be expected' over the last few weeks and shedloads of blind-eying whataboutery as well i suppose. That used to be called appeasing racism.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 12, 2019)

killer b said:


> There isn't very many of them though. The votes lost by them leaving (and who else would they vote for anyway?) would be - at most - tens to hundreds in any given constituency. absolutely fuck all.


Poor green's though...


----------



## kebabking (Jul 12, 2019)

Nice to see you back. Place has been a bit tame without you.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 12, 2019)

kebabking said:


> Nice to see you back. Place has been a bit tame without you.


Thank you. 

There must be some wedge issue on which we can force these freaks to inscribe upon their banner _we are not anti-zionists but anti-semites? _And if we can't, then why not?


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 12, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Probably time to do the same. I spend too long confirming what I already know about the loons. Very disappointed with the RMT though, especially Hedley and Dempsey


They're the main conduit and megaphone for this shit in the london left union _scene_. The have been for years. They are not just conjuncturely in it, they fucking are it. Stalinist assadist conspiracy theory _sometimes with the fascists_ identity politics goombahs.


----------



## Favelado (Jul 12, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> Stalinist assadist conspiracy theory _sometimes with the fascists_ identity politics goombahs.



This is a GZA lyric.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 12, 2019)

Favelado said:


> This is a GZA lyric.


Don't grass i up!


----------



## 19force8 (Jul 12, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> From 1868's insertion of bred in the bone swp sectarianism defend the left/CW model of this into real life labour branch or CLP meetings (that's CW the right wing thatcherite privatiser  when in power) to wells most recent oh i don't know about skwak box etc  i'm not sure what's more disgusting. There are a few 'it's only to be expected' over the last few weeks and shedloads of blind-eying whataboutery as well i suppose. That used to be called appeasing racism.


Oh dear, back with the passive aggressive bullshit too.

Yawn


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 12, 2019)

19force8 said:


> Oh dear, back with the passive aggressive bullshit too.
> 
> Yawn


When did you join the party?


----------



## 19force8 (Jul 12, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> When did you join the party?


Who are you talking to?

Me or 1868?


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Jul 13, 2019)

So Facebook's former Chief Security Officer (now Prof at and Director of Stanford Uni's Internet Observatory) often has some interesting stuff to say about political disinformation campaigns.

He's mainly talking about attributing disinformation campaigns in the context of Russia in the linked article, but perhaps some of it is worth considering in this case?



> The truth is, the vast majority of political disinformation is coming from semi-professionals who are making money pushing disinformation, who are also politically motivated and have some kind of relationship to the political actors themselves. The vast majority of the time, it is not a foreign influence campaign. And that should be the automatic assumption: it is not James Bond.
> 
> Journalists are there on all kinds of other things. If you read a local newspaper story about a woman disappearing in the middle of the night, it’s probably not a human trafficking ring. It’s probably the husband. Local crime reporters understand this, so they don’t write, ‘This is probably a Ukrainian human trafficking ring’, as the first assumption in the story.
> 
> ...



Facebook’s ex-security chief on disinformation campaigns: 'The sexiest explanation is usually not true'



> The first challenge is figuring out the type of entity to which we are attributing responsibility. This is harder than it might sound. It is standard for both traditional security attacks and information operations to be conducted using commercial infrastructure or computers belonging to innocent people that have been compromised. As a result, simple techniques like blaming the owner of an IP address that was used to register a malicious account usually aren’t sufficient to accurately determine who’s responsible.
> 
> Instead, we try to:
> 
> ...


 Hard Questions: How Does Facebook Investigate Cyber Threats and Information Operations? | Facebook Newsroom

More complex still when you potentially have multiple sponsors (in this case various groups or organisations who would like to damage Labour's left for their own particular reasons) getting behind (to varying degrees of attributeability perhaps) a broadly similar line of attack that's apparently being picked up and pushed by multiple sets of primary actors.


----------



## teqniq (Jul 14, 2019)

Weekly news roundup which starts with Labour and antisemitism which makes some good points some of which I have seen before, particularly the anti imperialism thing.

BobFromBrockley: Rain in July


----------



## Rivendelboy (Jul 14, 2019)

teqniq said:


> Weekly news roundup which starts with Labour and antisemitism which makes some good points some of which I have seen before, particularly the anti imperialism thing.
> 
> BobFromBrockley: Rain in July


I'm not seeing how Corbyn himself is antisemitic.


----------



## teqniq (Jul 14, 2019)

It doesn't say that.


----------



## killer b (Jul 14, 2019)

incredible stuff really. Third paragraph in:

_The Panorama documentary on Labour antisemitism stopped short of making the claim that Corbyn is personally antisemitic, but despite that many defenders of Corbyn respond to it by insisting that that he isn't
_
literally the first reply to a post about the article here: 



Rivendelboy said:


> I'm not seeing how Corbyn himself is antisemitic.



is this some kind of satire Rivendelboy?


----------



## teqniq (Jul 14, 2019)

Lol, maybe it is. I just thought maybe they didn't read it properly.


----------



## 8ball (Jul 14, 2019)

Rivendelboy said:


> I'm not seeing how Corbyn himself is antisemitic.



Repeat it enough times and it's true.


----------



## Rivendelboy (Jul 14, 2019)

teqniq said:


> It doesn't say that.


I'm not sure what it's saying then


----------



## Rivendelboy (Jul 14, 2019)

killer b said:


> incredible stuff really. Third paragraph in:
> 
> _The Panorama documentary on Labour antisemitism stopped short of making the claim that Corbyn is personally antisemitic, but despite that many defenders of Corbyn respond to it by insisting that that he isn't
> _
> ...



Because I'm having trouble understanding the truth of all this.

Instead of asking stupid loaded questions, perhaps you could help me. This issue is a complete clusterfuck


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jul 14, 2019)

teqniq said:


> Weekly news roundup which starts with Labour and antisemitism which makes some good points some of which I have seen before, particularly the anti imperialism thing.
> 
> BobFromBrockley: Rain in July



Bob from Brockley - a former cheerleader for the Afghan and Iraq wars doesn’t like anti-imperialism? There’s a surprise.


----------



## Serge Forward (Jul 14, 2019)

You could say much the same for Chris Williamson, voting with Cameron government for intervention in Libya. Trust no one


----------



## killer b (Jul 14, 2019)

Rivendelboy said:


> Because I'm having trouble understanding the truth of all this.
> 
> Instead of asking stupid loaded questions, perhaps you could help me. This issue is a complete clusterfuck


it's partly a clusterfuck because of clowns like you performing their 'difficulty' understanding something that's been explained thousands of times to them. 

I understand all this stuff gets people on the defensive. But ffs, you have to choose to have difficulty understanding this stuff. Choose to understand it instead.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 14, 2019)

Rivendelboy said:


> Because I'm having trouble understanding the truth of all this.
> 
> Instead of asking stupid loaded questions, perhaps you could help me. This issue is a complete clusterfuck


He can explain it to you but he cannot understand it for you


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 14, 2019)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Bob from Brockley - a former cheerleader for the Afghan and Iraq wars doesn’t like anti-imperialism? There’s a surprise.


He cheerled the afghan and iraq wars did he?

And 'anti-imperialism' as a trouble free clearly defined concept to be supported with no further investigation? Untroubled by the current red-brown understanding of it involving lining up and politically supporting dictators, far-right goons, anti-semites, holocaust deniers etc? The only one that's actually doing any work right now. What exactly about the single use of the term to describe the contents of another article written by someone else did you object to? I've never seen you stick up for the identity politics of this stalinist left before. In fact, i'm pretty sure i've seen you reject them.


----------



## kebabking (Jul 14, 2019)

Rivendelboy said:


> Because I'm having trouble understanding the truth of all this.
> 
> Instead of asking stupid loaded questions, perhaps you could help me. This issue is a complete clusterfuck



It's dead easy: Corbyn is a bit obsessed by Israel, _and it's reach and influence, _to the point of being of a bit of a conspiraloon on the issue (the Iranian TV interview being an excellent example), he then - for a committed anti-anti-Semite - ends up sharing platforms with an awful lot of anti-Semites and anti-Semitic conspiraloons, and calls an awful lot of them 'my friends'. He also fails to notice anti-Semitic tropes, which even someone as politically tone deaf as me can see in one glance, when they are produced by people who support his broad politics/world view.

So, he's either the world's unluckiest, least observant, least knowledgeable anti-anti-Semite, or he's just knowingly, and willfully blind to it when it fits into his world view.

I used to think it was the second, but I'm beginning to think it's an unpleasant mix of the two - I don't think he spends his down time dressed in an SS uniform and throwing darts at pictures of Albert Einstein, but I think he has, perhaps unthinkingly, bought into a crude Jews=Israel=International Finance=Media=Mossad conspiracy trope, and because thinks himself, understandably, a committed anti-racist, whatever he believes can't, by definition, be racist.

I don't think he's a bad, unpleasant man, I just think he's massively gullible to the point of believing absolutely anything that fits into, or sympathises with, his very simplistic world view.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jul 14, 2019)

The implication that Corbyn and his cronies are antisemitic is constantly made, though. It's commonly stated in articles that Corbyn has brought antisemites into the party and Labour isn't dealing with them because senior figures are intervening, and the subtext is that this is because Corbyn is antisemitic and/or people in his team are. Not "they are a bit shit", it's "they actively hate Jews". Otherwise it could just be a case of an inefficient party machine that deals badly with internal complaints, doesn't really understand the issues, is in denial, and errs on the side of supporting incumbents and not causing a fuss.

You don't have to look very far to see people understanding the underlying message and flat-out calling him an antisemite. I've heard it IRL too.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Jul 14, 2019)

I dont think Corbyn has moved on from the '60s default position tbf


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 14, 2019)

kebabking said:


> It's dead easy: Corbyn is a bit obsessed by Israel, _and it's reach and influence, _to the point of being of a bit of a conspiraloon on the issue (the Iranian TV interview being an excellent example), he then - for a committed anti-anti-Semite - ends up sharing platforms with an awful lot of anti-Semites and anti-Semitic conspiraloons, and calls an awful lot of them 'my friends'. He also fails to notice anti-Semitic tropes, which even someone as politically tone deaf as me can see in one glance, when they are produced by people who support his broad politics/world view.
> 
> So, he's either the world's unluckiest, least observant, least knowledgeable anti-anti-Semite, or he's just knowingly, and willfully blind to it when it fits into his world view.
> 
> ...


Anyone who wittingly or otherwise believes in conspiracies cannot by definition be said to have a simplistic world view due to the actual complexity of their world view


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 14, 2019)

not-bono-ever said:


> I dont think Corbyn has moved on from the '60s default position tbf


Which was...


----------



## not-bono-ever (Jul 14, 2019)

viewing through the lens of anti imperialism broadly


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Jul 14, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Anyone who wittingly or otherwise believes in conspiracies cannot by definition be said to have a simplistic world view due to the actual complexity of their world view



Structurally complex maybe but isn't a big part of their whole appeal that they're _ontologically _simple?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 14, 2019)

Bernie Gunther said:


> Structurally complex maybe but isn't a big part of their whole appeal that they're _ontologically _simple?


Or ostensibly simple.


----------



## Rivendelboy (Jul 14, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> He can explain it to you but *he cannot understand it for you*


That wasn't my request so there should be no problem


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Jul 14, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Or ostensibly simple.



Sure, but the appeal is that they ignore the messy details of real systems to provide neat, emotionally satisfying explanations. Or something along those lines.

There's rarely room for feedback loops in the classical conspiraloon explanatory graphic for example, however structurally complex they are.

Whereas there are a whole bunch of them in notions of formation and reproduction that a marxist analysis might use for example, that might usefully come into a discussion of political influence, ideological dominance or whatever.


----------



## Rivendelboy (Jul 14, 2019)

kebabking said:


> It's dead easy: Corbyn is a bit obsessed by Israel, _and it's reach and influence, _to the point of being of a bit of a conspiraloon on the issue (the Iranian TV interview being an excellent example), he then - for a committed anti-anti-Semite - ends up sharing platforms with an awful lot of anti-Semites and anti-Semitic conspiraloons, and calls an awful lot of them 'my friends'. He also fails to notice anti-Semitic tropes, which even someone as politically tone deaf as me can see in one glance, when they are produced by people who support his broad politics/world view.
> 
> So, he's either the world's unluckiest, least observant, least knowledgeable anti-anti-Semite, or he's just knowingly, and willfully blind to it when it fits into his world view.
> 
> ...



That's actually a pretty good overview, thanks. It makes sense, I just don't know how I feel about it


----------



## SpineyNorman (Jul 14, 2019)

kebabking said:


> It's dead easy: Corbyn is a bit obsessed by Israel, _and it's reach and influence, _to the point of being of a bit of a conspiraloon on the issue (the Iranian TV interview being an excellent example), he then - for a committed anti-anti-Semite - ends up sharing platforms with an awful lot of anti-Semites and anti-Semitic conspiraloons, and calls an awful lot of them 'my friends'. He also fails to notice anti-Semitic tropes, which even someone as politically tone deaf as me can see in one glance, when they are produced by people who support his broad politics/world view.
> 
> So, he's either the world's unluckiest, least observant, least knowledgeable anti-anti-Semite, or he's just knowingly, and willfully blind to it when it fits into his world view.
> 
> ...


Broadly agree but I'd be a bit more charitable towards him in that I don't think he's personally antisemitic. It's more that he's aware that (or believes) his coalition of support within the party has within it a lot of these kinds of cranks, doesn't really recognise just how dangerous they are and doesn't want to boot them out/upset them too much because he depends on them for support. Along with the fact that in the early days of his leadership he showed a terrifying inability to recognise antisemitic propaganda and it paints a pretty bad picture and the objective result of this isn't that much different than it would be if he was an antisemite.

Neither of us can really know and he doesn't exactly look good either way.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 14, 2019)

Rivendelboy said:


> That's actually a pretty good overview, thanks. It makes sense, I just don't know how I feel about it



How can you not know how you feel about it??


----------



## Rivendelboy (Jul 14, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> How can you not know how you feel about it??


Because I'm not sure how I feel about Corbyn. On one hand I think, very simply, he's the only answer to the Tories. It's not what I would hope for, but it's what we got. On the other clearly there are cranks and fringe loons that seem to cluster around his leadership that, despite the bad faith element amongst those decrying it, see to be a persistent thorn. 

I don't want to throw Jewish labour voters and supporters under the bus at all. But at the same time I don't agree with the way some cases have been handled: specifically Jackie Walker. I thinks she has been scapegoated. Meanwhile Chris Williamson has been allowed in and out in a manner akin to the hpkey cokey, which only further arms the right wing

So yes, I'm torn. Sorry if that isn't a simple enough answer.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 14, 2019)

It’s perfectly possible to feel that Corbyn/labour are a rare opportunity to dial back to some extent advanced double liberalism and also to be nauseated by their reductive, stupid and ultimately crass ‘anti-imperialism’.


----------



## Rivendelboy (Jul 14, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> It’s perfectly possible to feel that Corbyn/labour are a rare opportunity to dial back to some extent advanced double liberalism and also to be nauseated by their reductive, stupid and ultimately crass ‘anti-imperialism’.


That's what I'm saying


----------



## Cloo (Jul 14, 2019)

I think kebabking puts it very well.

One might well be able to say Corbyn is an anti-semite, but he's not a Jew-hater (which I see as two different things). The Nazis were not mere anti-semites, they are outright Jew haters. People who think it's clever to mutter about Rothschilds and Zionist conspiracies but say they have nothing against Jews are anti-semites, but not Jew haters.

 Corbyn's Labour, to my mind, poses zero existential threat to Jews (and it pisses me off when my co-religionists act as if it does) but it doesn't understand its own anti-semitism and it doesn't really understand who Jews are.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 15, 2019)

Cloo said:


> I think
> Corbyn's Labour, to my mind, poses zero existential threat to Jews (and it pisses me off when my co-religionists act as if it does) but it doesn't understand its own anti-semitism and it doesn't really understand who Jews are.




This is the most damning point of all. The apparent fact that despite the last 2 years or so nobody around him has sat down and suggested a rethink of their analysis and where it comes from and an engagement with thinkers from outside of the bubble. Instead there has been an ideological digging in.

The fact that the issue has become the proxy for the war between Blairites and Corbynistas is highly unpleasant all round, but the fact that the LOTO office has not undertaken a fundamental rethink and engagement strategy (which McDonnell once demanded must happen) is incompetence and worryingly complacent in its smug certainties.


----------



## Mr Moose (Jul 15, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> It’s perfectly possible to feel that Corbyn/labour are a rare opportunity to dial back to some extent advanced double liberalism and also to be nauseated by their reductive, stupid and ultimately crass ‘anti-imperialism’.



But it’s increasingly impossible to think that the former is going to succeed given the latter. 

Anti-semitism isn’t even the only way this manifests itself, for example in Corbyn’s idiotic approach to Russia. A woman, a citizen, dies because of the Russian state’s reckless murderous behaviour and Corbyn responds with sophistry. 

We certainly need a leader who can instinctively resist the stupid interventionist adventures of the last few years, but this random world view is simply too flakey.


----------



## killer b (Jul 15, 2019)

His world view isn't random is it? It's totally consistent and boringly predictable.


----------



## Mr Moose (Jul 15, 2019)

killer b said:


> His world view isn't random is it? It's totally consistent and boringly predictable.



Ok, maybe the wrong word. Consistently inconsistent perhaps. Humanitarian, but less so if the Russian State may have been involved.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 15, 2019)

I wonder, in the world view of the type of people we are talking about if it's possible to be jewish or opposed to anti-semitism and not be an active labour party member in support of Corbyn. I don't see much understanding of how this is actually a real life thing.


----------



## treelover (Jul 15, 2019)

Tracey Ann Obermann was on Victoria Derbyshire, its a hard watch, some of the things she says that (alledgely) Corbyn supporters have said to her are worthy of any Moselyite, 'dirty jew' 'your North London cabal's time is over'

Labour could have been on the brink of power, helping the millions, many whose life is hell, can't forgive them, out they go.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 15, 2019)

treelover said:


> Tracey Ann Obermann was on Victoria Derbyshire, its a hard watch, some of the things she says that (alledgely) Corbyn supporters have said to her are worthy of any Moselyite, 'dirty jew' 'your North London cabal's time is over'


tbh it'd be very odd to hear any corbyn supporter say to anyone 'your north london cabal's time's over'





> Labour could have been on the brink of power, helping the millions, many whose life is hell, can't forgive them, out they go.


so - are you turning to the lib dems now?


----------



## killer b (Jul 15, 2019)

Do you really think the only thing standing between Labour and the brink of power is their failure to deal with antisemitism among their membership & supporters?


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 15, 2019)

treelover said:


> Tracey Ann Obermann was on Victoria Derbyshire, its a hard watch, some of the things she says that (alledgely) Corbyn supporters have said to her are worthy of any Moselyite, 'dirty jew' 'your North London cabal's time is over'
> 
> Labour could have been on the brink of power, helping the millions, many whose life is hell, can't forgive them, out they go.


You think the specific content of the anti-semitism claims rather than the wider narrative of civil war and internal disorganisation is harming them electorally?


----------



## killer b (Jul 15, 2019)

(fwiw the polling from most of the polling companies show Labour as the largest party and - actually - on the brink of power)


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 15, 2019)

killer b said:


> (fwiw the polling from most of the polling companies show Labour as the largest party and - actually - on the brink of power)


Like hitler. I will never forgive that man.


----------



## Mr Moose (Jul 15, 2019)

killer b said:


> Do you really think the only thing standing between Labour and the brink of power is their failure to deal with antisemitism among their membership & supporters?



It’s a big problem. That they have others, Brexit and an unpopular leader for starters, just adds to the concern that it won’t get a chance to adopt the policies is has that will help people at least a little.


----------



## Mr Moose (Jul 15, 2019)

killer b said:


> (fwiw the polling from most of the polling companies show Labour as the largest party and - actually - on the brink of power)



They did in 2015, but it had been clear for a long time the win was in jeopardy.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 15, 2019)

Mr Moose said:


> It’s a big problem. That they have others, Brexit and an unpopular leader for starters, just adds to the concern that it won’t get a chance to adopt the policies is has that will help people at least a little.


tbh this 'unpopular leader' bit is getting really rather dull


----------



## treelover (Jul 15, 2019)

Yes, only now, I think it is starting to have an impact, for much of the time it was something most people just didn't concern themselves, but it is now all over everyday TV, radio, and filters in to wider questions of fit to govern.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 15, 2019)

treelover said:


> Yes, only now, I think it is starting to have an impact, for much of the time it was something most people just didn't concern themselves, but it is now all over everyday TV, radio, and filters in to wider questions of fit to govern.


so you think that because it's all over the media it is having an effect. in what way does this effect differ from all the other stories about corbyn and his fitness for political office which have been er all over the media for the past four years?

does it come up in conversation much with the people you meet in your everyday life?


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 15, 2019)

treelover said:


> Yes, only now, I think it is starting to have an impact, for much of the time it was something most people just didn't concern themselves, but it is now all over everyday TV, radio, and filters in to wider questions of fit to govern.


Is that to do with the specific content of the attacks, the grounds that they are taking place on  - anti-semitism. Or is it just the relentless attacks? if the latter then this is always going to happen, there is no way around it. So to blame the people being attacked seems a bit daft. How can you try to move the labour party leftward without this happening? You can't.


----------



## Mr Moose (Jul 15, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> so you think that because it's all over the media it is having an effect. in what way does this effect differ from all the other stories about corbyn and his fitness for political office which have been er all over the media for the past four years?
> 
> does it come up in conversation much with the people you meet in your everyday life?



You are adopting an odd position on this. It seems that we have agreement that Corbo’s followers include an unfortunate number of flakes who are quick to pick up on silly conspiracies and utilise antisemitism if JC is criticised. JC himself appears unable to fully grasp the scale of the problem and at the same point his overall approval ratings and the LP’s poll ratings are running low and yet no one should hazard a guess about how this may affect Labour’s chances?


----------



## killer b (Jul 15, 2019)

Mr Moose said:


> the LP’s poll ratings are running low


4 and 6 points ahead in the latest two polls.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 15, 2019)

Mr Moose said:


> You are adopting an odd position on this. It seems that we have agreement that Corbo’s followers include an unfortunate number of flakes who are quick to pick up on silly conspiracies and utilise antisemitism if JC is criticised. JC himself appears unable to fully grasp the scale of the problem and at the same point his overall approval ratings and the LP’s poll ratings are running low and yet no one should hazard a guess about how this may affect Labour’s chances?


perhaps you should reread my post to see what i'm actually saying


----------



## treelover (Jul 15, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> tbh it'd be very odd to hear any corbyn supporter say to anyone 'your north london cabal's time's over'so - are you turning to the lib dems now?



Eh, I mean the cranks,not the party


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 15, 2019)

treelover said:


> Eh, I mean the cranks,not the party


do you really think any corbyn supporter is really going to say to anyone 'your north london cabal is finished' or similar? do you actually know where the constituencies represented by diane abbott and jeremy corbyn are?


----------



## Smangus (Jul 15, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> You think the specific content of the anti-semitism claims rather than the wider narrative of civil war and internal disorganisation is harming them electorally?



I think so, their ridiculous reaction to the Panarama documentary reeks of institutionalised racism imo. Whataboutary, addressing the motives of the accusers and broadcaster not the issues/accusations all points to this. 

Antisemitism is having an impact.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 15, 2019)

Smangus said:


> I think so, their ridiculous reaction to the Panarama documentary reeks of institutionalised racism imo. Whataboutary, addressing the motives of the accusers and broadcaster not the issues/accusations all points to this.
> 
> Antisemitism is having an impact.


On the electorate?  All them things you mention are effects on the membership, the corbyn supporting membership.


----------



## Benjy1992 (Jul 15, 2019)

I've just watched the Panaroma programme.

It's left me in no doubt that there is anti semitism in the Labour Party that has increased hugely since Corbyn has been at the helm. I don't think the leadership have done no where near enough to root it out either.

Shameful.


----------



## Mr Moose (Jul 15, 2019)

killer b said:


> 4 and 6 points ahead in the latest two polls.



As has been noted, Ed was well ahead and had  a considerably higher poll share. These leads don’t point to progress, simply that it’s all a bit febrile.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 15, 2019)

Mr Moose said:


> As has been noted, Ed was well ahead and had  a considerably higher poll share. These leads don’t point to progress, simply that it’s all a bit febrile.


He wasn't ahead in this situation. If you're doing real like polls do you want to put his actually existing electoral record up against corbyn's?


----------



## killer b (Jul 15, 2019)

Mr Moose said:


> As has been noted, Ed was well ahead and had  a considerably higher poll share. These leads don’t point to progress, simply that it’s all a bit febrile.


I don't think they do point to progress, no. But nor are they 'running low'.


----------



## Smangus (Jul 15, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> On the electorate?  All them things you mention are effects on the membership, the corbyn supporting membership.



I think so, I'm the electorate - not a member of the party. I won't vote for them now as they are to me a racist party - same as the Tories, Brexit Party , UKIP etc.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 15, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> On the electorate?  All them things you mention are effects on the membership, the corbyn supporting membership.


Before I get shot down for any suggestion that anti semitism isnt important I'd suggest that their Brexit position will cost them more votes amongst the working class .


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Jul 15, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> Is that to do with the specific content of the attacks, the grounds that they are taking place on  - anti-semitism. Or is it just the relentless attacks? if the latter then this is always going to happen, there is no way around it. So to blame the people being attacked seems a bit daft. How can you try to move the labour party leftward without this happening? You can't.



There possibly is something about the specific content of the attacks that makes them particularly effective and one might say inflammatory when used against Labour's members and supporters, insofar as they are basically accusations of racism, made against a group that proudly identifies as anti-racist. 

I can't imagine the Tories for example, giving much of a shit about being called racists.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 15, 2019)

What price a victory if it involves defending chris williamson?


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 15, 2019)

Bernie Gunther said:


> There possibly is something about the specific content of the attacks that makes them particularly effective and one might say inflammatory when used against Labour's members and supporters, insofar as they are basically accusations of racism, made against a group that proudly identifies as anti-racist.
> 
> I can't imagine the Tories for example, giving much of a shit about being called racists.


Well if, as you suggest, labour puts an especial value on being anti-racist it could probably have done a bit better on this. And a bit sooner. Lots of people saw this happening as soon as corbyn won the election. It's not like they weren't warned.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 15, 2019)

Mr Moose said:


> As has been noted, Ed was well ahead and had  a considerably higher poll share. These leads don’t point to progress, simply that it’s all a bit febrile.


'Ed' actually set this up btw with his opening up of the leadership votes and membership rules.


----------



## Smangus (Jul 15, 2019)

Bernie Gunther said:


> There possibly is something about the specific content of the attacks that makes them particularly effective and one might say inflammatory when used against Labour's members and supporters, insofar as they are basically accusations of racism, made against a group that proudly identifies as anti-racist.
> .



Time they took a long hard look at themselves then. Until thye recognise it they can't deal with it.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 15, 2019)

The39thStep said:


> Before I get shot down for any suggestion that anti semitism isnt important I'd suggest that their Brexit position will cost them more votes amongst the working class .


Absolutely - and them chickens are very close to er being cooked.


----------



## Mr Moose (Jul 15, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> 'Ed' actually set this up btw with his opening up of the leadership votes and membership rules.



He did and it only goes to show that the last thing you want in a political party are people enthusiastic to be there.


----------



## lazythursday (Jul 15, 2019)

Suspect that the biggest impact of the anti-semitism row is on thoroughly demoralising Labour Party members like me who back the policy direction of Corbynism, are despairing at the cranks in the party and utterly maddened by the inability of the leadership to actually do any leading. I've gradually gone from supporting Corbyn, to thinking he's not ideal but it's about the policies not the man, to worrying that he's now outstaying his welcome and he personally is starting to be a threat to the survival of the policy programme.


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Jul 15, 2019)

Sure. No doubt at all they made a complete hash of dealing with the genuine antisemitism present in their ranks, but now their chances of addressing it are severely hampered by a sort of siege mentality that almost inevitably arises from being dog-piled by all and sundry on the issue.

Clearly many on Labour's left perceive that there is sponsorship or exploitation of the actual attacks along these lines by different groups who are hostile to left politics; whether in support of the Israeli government, or from power struggles with the Labour right, or just from capital doing what it does e.g. via the corporate media. 

The lack of any real analytical framework for attribution of such exploitation / sponsorship though, appears to cause any attempt to discuss that wider context to tend to devolve quickly into a binary choice between e.g. "Mossad disinformation op" vs  "Antisemitic conspiraloonery"

Hence the stuff from the professional cybersecurity world I was posting a page or two back, where I think there might be some of the tools for a pragmatic analysis of the apparent exploitation and/or sponsorship of this attack line by various groups.

I think that being able to have a sensible conversation about that stuff (or at least not having to pretend that it isn't happening for fear of being called an "antisemitic conspiraloon") is likely to be a critical success factor for dealing with actual anti-semitism.

If they leave a gap there, it will almost certainly get filled by exactly the sort of gibberish that would exacerbate the problem.


----------



## TopCat (Jul 15, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> What price a victory if it involves defending chris williamson?


A high price but I don't see him staying around long. Soon for the Ikes.


----------



## TopCat (Jul 15, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> 'Ed' actually set this up btw with his opening up of the leadership votes and membership rules.


He signed it off but it was not his idea.


----------



## Mr Moose (Jul 15, 2019)

Bernie Gunther said:


> Sure. No doubt at all they made a complete hash of dealing with the genuine antisemitism present in their ranks, but now their chances of addressing it are severely hampered by a sort of siege mentality that almost inevitably arises from being dog-piled by all and sundry on the issue.
> 
> Clearly many on Labour's left perceive that there is sponsorship or exploitation of the actual attacks along these lines by different groups who are hostile to left politics; whether in support of the Israeli government, or from power struggles with the Labour right, or just from capital doing what it does e.g. via the corporate media.
> 
> ...



I’m not sure what you would need to prove to put it back in its box. It doesn’t really matter what mischief is afoot if Jewish people are getting abused by Labour supporters as a consequence then the Labour Party has those members who are prone to doing that abusing.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Jul 15, 2019)

Smangus said:


> I think so, I'm the electorate - not a member of the party. I won't vote for them now as they are to me a racist party - same as the Tories, Brexit Party , UKIP etc.


LibDem then


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Jul 15, 2019)

Mr Moose said:


> I’m not sure what you would need to prove to put it back in its box. It doesn’t really matter what mischief is afoot if Jewish people are getting abused by Labour supporters as a consequence then the Labour Party has those members who are prone to doing that abusing.



Not really about proving things. Technical attribution of the primary actors in an online influence campaign is really only something that the relevant teams at Twitter, Facebook et. al. the internet infrastructure orgs, the NSA/GCHQ/NCSC and various law enforcement groups have the capability to do with any kind of depth.

It is interesting though, that e.g. in the cases of two Nazis and a professional troll who were done for abusing Luciana Berger online, while technical evidence got these online actors prosecuted, their actual affiliations tended not to support the media narrative claiming that she was being abused by Labour supporters.

So what should we make of media organisations who still talk about that as though they didn't know that half the population of the Daily Stormer was involved via Helm, Bonehill et. al. in a coordinated antisemitic trolling campaign against her and attribute it all to 'Corbyn supporters' and keep repeating that until it becomes the accepted reality?

It makes sense then to separate the primary actors online on both sides of the issue, from the political groups and other organisations who exploit and/or sponsor them.

There are a whole zoo of different primary actors, with different motives and capabilities, on both sides of this issue from what we can see, and from what we can reasonably assume based on other online influence operations, trolling campaigns etc that have been studied.

What I'm talking about above then, and what the papers and interviews with professionals in the field I quoted down-thread is more about, is having an analytical framework for understanding the evidence in the public domain of states, factions within Labour, hostile political and media organisations etc. exploiting Labour's weaknesses in this area and the activities of those primary actors online, in terms a little more _nuanced_ than - _Either it's a 'Mossad Op' or it's 'Antisemite conspiraloonery"_ - like those are the only two possibilities.


----------



## Smangus (Jul 15, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> LibDem then



Like fuck will I ever vote for those orange booker cunts who helped foist austerity on us.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Jul 15, 2019)

Smangus said:


> Like fuck will I ever vote for those orange booker cunts who helped foist austerity on us.


Fair play


----------



## 19force8 (Jul 15, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> 'Ed' actually set this up btw with his opening up of the leadership votes and membership rules.


Pure myth.

The stats tell an entirely different story -

In 2015 225k members voted compared with 121k in 2010.

The Affiliate (ie trade union) vote fell from 200k to 71k

The Registered Supporters acounted for only 105k

Corbyn had 49.6% of the existing membership vote on the first round and 57.6% of the Affiliate vote. The Registered Supporters vote merely confirmed the result.

If anyone set this up it was those MPs who decided to nominate a no-hope left candidate as a ploy to tie the not so neoliberal membership to their neoliberal project.


----------



## TopCat (Jul 15, 2019)

19force8 said:


> Pure myth.
> 
> The stats tell an entirely different story -
> 
> ...


I know a bit about the actual machinations. Happy to rabbit over a pint but not hear.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 15, 2019)

19force8 said:


> Pure myth.
> 
> The stats tell an entirely different story -
> 
> ...


What exactly did you think that i was arguing? What is the myth? What on earth could you challenge about the claim that the collins review took place and the reforms that it it proposed were accepted and put in place under ed milband's leadership? I mean this literally how it starts:



> In July of last year following Ed Miliband’s St. Bride’s speech he asked me to conduct a review on how to take forward his aspirations and proposals on further Labour Party reform.



Where is the myth here?


----------



## TopCat (Jul 15, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> What exactly did you think that i was arguing? What is the myth? What on earth could you challenge about the claim that the collins review took place and the reforms that it it proposed were accepted and put in place under ed milband's leadership? I mean this literally how it starts:
> 
> 
> 
> Where is the myth here?


This a quote from ray Collins?


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 15, 2019)

TopCat said:


> This a quote from ray Collins?


Yes, it's from the collins review into labour party reform. Now he may be an untrustworthy twat or whatever, but that has no bearing on the odd post i was replying to that called the idea that this took place when ed miliband was leader of the labour party 'a myth'.


----------



## 19force8 (Jul 15, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> What exactly did you think that i was arguing? What is the myth? What on earth could you challenge about the claim that the collins review took place and the reforms that it it proposed were accepted and put in place under ed milband's leadership? I mean this literally how it starts:
> 
> 
> 
> Where is the myth here?


But you didn't just "_claim that the collins review took place and the reforms that it it proposed were accepted and put in place under ed milband's leadership_" did you?

What you actually said was:


butchersapron said:


> 'Ed' actually set this up btw with his opening up of the leadership votes and membership rules.



What are we to understand by "_Ed' actually set this up"_?

That he somehow foresaw the changes to the leadership election rules would result in the election of the first leftist leader since Michael Foot?

Probably not.

That those changes "_actually_" lead to the election of Corbyn?

Yeah, I think that's a reasonable interpretation. And that is a myth.

So how could the "_opening up of the leadership votes and membership rules_" haven resulted in the majority vote for Corbyn on the first round among members and affiliated supporters?

Well the membership rules weren't "_opened up_." Members joined in 2015 on the same basis as they had before the Collins Review.

The voting rules for affiliated supporters weren't "_opened up_," they were made considerably tighter by Collins. Hence the 65% reduction in votes.

The only "_opening up_" was in respect of registered supporters. But since Corbyn already had a majority of members and affiliates it's a bit of a stretch to ascribe his overall victory to registered supporters.

To repeat:

The myth is that the opening up of the voting system resulted in Corbyn's victory. It didn't, but if you go on Facebook or Twitter it's a commonly expressed view that the £3 Tories/Trots/Tankies/Greens/etc were wot won it for Corbyn. They didn't.

The ending of the electoral college did set up a situation where it was possible for a left candidate to win a leadership vote. Because previously the PLP had represented a guaranteed 30% deficit for any left candidate. However, I don't think anybody could have predicted in 2014 what happened in 2015.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Jul 15, 2019)

19force8 said:


> But you didn't just "_claim that the collins review took place and the reforms that it it proposed were accepted and put in place under ed milband's leadership_" did you?
> 
> What you actually said was:
> 
> ...



It still did though because under old system it wasnt one member one vote even ignoring supporters or whatever they called them. It was three constituencies of equal share and that impacted on where support fell.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Jul 15, 2019)

Reckon without the electoral reform it would have been Burnham or somebody, Corbyn wouldn't even have got on ballot tbh


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 16, 2019)

19force8 said:


> But you didn't just "_claim that the collins review took place and the reforms that it it proposed were accepted and put in place under ed milband's leadership_" did you?
> 
> What you actually said was:
> 
> ...



Good lord. 96% of this post is you trying to establish that what my one line throwaway said is 'a myth', then we get to the final 4% and we discover you saying that the reality is exactly what i was suggesting - that voting reforms that took place under ed miliband  set up a situation where it was possible for corbyn to win.

I wonder what branch and CLP attendances are like now.


----------



## cantsin (Jul 16, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> Good lord. 96% of this post is you trying to establish that what my one line throwaway said is 'a myth', then we get to the final 4% and we discover you saying that the reality is exactly what i was suggesting - that voting reforms that took place under ed miliband  set up a situation where it was possible for corbyn to win.
> 
> I wonder what branch and CLP attendances are like now.



our CLP has remained pretty steady -  not too many lost to your Black - Orange alliance yet it seems


----------



## Fez909 (Jul 17, 2019)




----------



## TopCat (Jul 17, 2019)

Legitimate criticism or bunch of cunts throwing shit?


----------



## danny la rouge (Jul 17, 2019)

TopCat said:


> Legitimate criticism or bunch of cunts throwing shit?


Both.


----------



## killer b (Jul 17, 2019)

Reforming the house of lords just shifted up a couple of notches in the Labour legislative agenda


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jul 17, 2019)

Yawn. “The most shameful period in Labour’s history”. Oh yes, clearly far more shameful than the destruction of Iraq and Afghanistan for example.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 17, 2019)

killer b said:


> Reforming the house of lords just shifted up a couple of notches in the Labour legislative agenda



Yeah, because some of them criticising Labour on A/S is the correct political motivation for doing it.


----------



## Mr Moose (Jul 17, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Yeah, because some of them criticising Labour on A/S is the correct political motivation for doing it.



I’m sure they can sleep easy given Labour’s current performance.


----------



## cantsin (Jul 17, 2019)

Mr Moose said:


> I’m sure they can sleep easy given Labour’s current performance.



avge of 4-6 % ahead in latest polls you mean, despite everything ?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 17, 2019)

cantsin said:


> avge of 4-6 % ahead in latest polls you mean, despite everything ?


it's wicked to mock the afflicted


----------



## cantsin (Jul 17, 2019)

TopCat said:


> Legitimate criticism or bunch of cunts throwing shit?



that laughable sack off shite Iain McNichol forgetting he was chairman of Lab until Feb 2018, personally responsible for majority of ex staff NDA's and the bulk of the disciplinary process chaos


----------



## Mr Moose (Jul 17, 2019)

cantsin said:


> avge of 4-6 % ahead in latest polls you mean, despite everything ?



Look at that pretty little iceberg said man on unsinkable ship.


----------



## cantsin (Jul 17, 2019)

Mr Moose said:


> Look at that pretty little iceberg said man on unsinkable ship.



you've lost me matey, was just quoting latest  polling data for you ?


----------



## Mr Moose (Jul 17, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> it's wicked to mock the afflicted



Yes it is. You leave the Labour Party alone.


----------



## killer b (Jul 17, 2019)

I think they're averaging at 2% up tbf


----------



## Mr Moose (Jul 17, 2019)

cantsin said:


> you've lost me matey, was just quoting latest  polling data for you ?



There are lots of ways of presenting that. 6 points up or how many down on 4 or 5 months ago? What’s the likelihood of the Brexit Party standing against a Johnson Govt in a GE? What does that then do to the Tory vote? What’s the buzz around Labour? Feels positive? Everyone getting on well? Corbyn popularity polling well?

Head in the sand if you think Labour can just carry on regardless.


----------



## Benjy1992 (Jul 17, 2019)

Corbyn and his supporters passionate support for the Palestinian causes leaves him open to anti semitism accusations.

There is nothing anti semitic about criticising the Israeli government and criticising its actions in Palestine but that can easily spill over into anti semitism. 

Sadly we've seen that far too often in the Labour Party since Corbyn has been leader. That's a damning indictment of him and not the nicer politics he promised.


----------



## killer b (Jul 17, 2019)

SO MUCH FOR THE KINDER, GENTLER POLITICS!!


----------



## Benjy1992 (Jul 17, 2019)

I know. Where do we start?

Sharing platforms with anti semites, not recognising Hamas as a terror organisation and not knowing an anti semitic trope on a mural when it's staring him in the face.

There just a few things Mr Corbyn is known to have done.

Anyone who calls themselves left wing, as I proudly do, should find anti semitism to be completely abhorrent and nothing more than vile racism. Sadly some people who identify themselves as being on the left seem far too comfortable with it.


----------



## Funky_monks (Jul 17, 2019)

Benjy1992 said:


> I know. Where do we start?
> 
> Sharing platforms with anti semites, not recognising Hamas as a terror organisation and not knowing an anti semitic trope on a mural when it's staring him in the face.
> 
> ...



You do realise that the anti-semite that Corbyn "shared a platform with" (the one who compared Israel to the Nazis) was not only Jewish  but also an Auschwitz survivor?

Also, Jewish voice for Labour think its bollocks:Labour’s Anti-Semitism “Crisis” is Bollocks


----------



## Smangus (Jul 17, 2019)

Funky_monks said:


> You do realise that the anti-semite that Corbyn "shared a platform with" (the one who compared Israel to the Nazis) was not only Jewish  but also an Auschwitz survivor?
> 
> Also, Jewish voice for Labour think its bollocks:Labour’s Anti-Semitism “Crisis” is Bollocks



He's shared it with more than one. next


----------



## killer b (Jul 17, 2019)

Wow it's like its 2016 in here all over again


----------



## Funky_monks (Jul 17, 2019)

Smangus said:


> He's shared it with more than one. next


Has he?
Name them.

Also; are you telling me that you think a Jewish holocaust survivor is in any way an anti semite?


----------



## toblerone3 (Jul 17, 2019)

Having trouble following the twists and turns of the arguments on this thread but could somebody help me with the following.  I have googled "Labour anti-semitic social media posts" on image search and not very much is coming up.  Why are there so few screengrabs of anti-semitic posts?  Am I missing something?   Is there a better way to search?


----------



## Smangus (Jul 17, 2019)

Funky_monks said:


> Has he? Name them.




Hamas
Maher Taher
Khaled Mashaal
Leila Kahled
Dyab Abou Jahjah





Funky_monks said:


> Also; are you telling me that you think a Jewish holocaust survivor is in any way an anti semite?​




No, you miss my point, citing the background of 1 example to discount it doesn't mean there are not others. ​


----------



## toblerone3 (Jul 17, 2019)

One of the interviewees in the Panorma programme says that "in labour party meetings we've seen people engage in holocaust denial...."  Does this ring true?


----------



## kebabking (Jul 18, 2019)

toblerone3 said:


> One of the interviewees in the Panorma programme says that "in labour party meetings we've seen people engage in holocaust denial...."  Does this ring true?



It wouldn't remotely surprise me.

I've sat in Branch and CLP meetings where it's been said that Jews only go on about the Holocaust to distract attention from Israel, I remember one member - while we were talking about the failures of the Soviet Union - claim that it's greatest failure was in not giving nukes to the Syrians so they could have destroyed Israel in the 67 or 73 wars, and she wasn't joking.. I've heard an LP member, though not in an LP setting, say that the numbers killed in the Holocaust were inflated by _the Jewish lobby _and that they (the 'they' of _international finance, _meaning Jewish bankers) bribe politicians to set up Holocaust memorials and museums to peddle the lies and misrepresentations and to secure public sympathy for the Jews and Israel.

Apart from actual, outright denial that lots of Jews were murdered in camps by the Nazi's, pretty much anything you might read on a far right website about Jews, Israel, and the 'Holocaust industry' can be heard from a small minority within the LP.


----------



## andysays (Jul 18, 2019)

Labour peer sacked for comparing Corbyn leadership to Hitler's bunker...


----------



## LDC (Jul 18, 2019)

andysays said:


> Labour peer sacked for comparing Corbyn leadership to Hitler's bunker...



Did she wake up that morning and think "Hmmm, what can I say that will absolutely 100% definitely get me sacked today?" FFS.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Jul 18, 2019)

> Labour’s shadow Brexit minister, Dianne Hayter, has been sacked after she likened the “bunker mentality” around Jeremy Corbyn’s leadership to the “last days of Hitler”.
> 
> Lady Hayter, Labour’s deputy leader in the Lords, was stripped of her shadow cabinet position after she attacked Corbyn’s inner circle and its critical response to a BBC Panorama programme investigating antisemitism complaints within the party. “To compare the Labour leader and Labour party staff working to elect a Labour government to the Nazi regime is truly contemptible, and grossly insensitive to Jewish staff in particular,” a Labour party spokesman said. He added that Hayter had been sacked “with immediate effect” for her “deeply offensive remarks about Jeremy Corbyn and his office”.



Corbyn sacks shadow Brexit minister for ‘Hitler in the bunker’ comment

Wow!


----------



## kebabking (Jul 18, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Did she wake up that morning and think "Hmmm, what can I say that will absolutely 100% definitely get me sacked today?" FFS.



She's one of his critics - she signed that letter the other day. I don't think she's that career minded.

It's amusing, given the context, but actually i'm wondering what other comparison would work - is there another example of bunker mentality that's well established on the public discourse?


----------



## brogdale (Jul 18, 2019)

kebabking said:


> She's one of his critics - she signed that letter the other day. I don't think she's that career minded.
> 
> It's amusing, given the context, but actually i'm wondering what other comparison would work - is there another example of bunker mentality that's well established on the public discourse?


She's just learnt that the phrase, if used, is probably best left unexemplified.


----------



## killer b (Jul 18, 2019)

The inevitable consequence of a shadow minister comparing their party leader to Hitler is their sacking, and the people performing their outrage about this across the media this morning are the most ludicrous hacks imaginable. My eyes rolled so hard I think I've pulled something.


----------



## andysays (Jul 18, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Did she wake up that morning and think "Hmmm, what can I say that will absolutely 100% definitely get me sacked today?" FFS.


I wonder if she's posted one of those Downfall parody things on YouTube


----------



## LDC (Jul 18, 2019)

andysays said:


> I wonder if she's posted one of those Downfall parody things on YouTube



Yeah, when I heard the news that was what popped into my head. Surely there's already a Corbyn/Downfall thing somewhere?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 18, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Yeah, when I heard the news that was what popped into my head. Surely there's already a Corbyn/Downfall thing somewhere?


those things jumped the shark years ago


----------



## Rivendelboy (Jul 18, 2019)

What's the solution here (with a view to making labour electable so as to oust fucking Boris Trump)?

Cobyn isn't going anywhere unless he stands down and that doesn't seem to be his desire. His opponents are not people I want in charge, even if the claims about Corbyn and the cranks are true. They also won't win a leadership challenge.

Meanwhile I hear a rumour that Boris could plan a GE next year to capitalise on Labour's 'chaos'. I've no idea if that would work or not.

I am however sick of this situation. Labour, at the very least, should be leaping ahead in the polls.


----------



## killer b (Jul 18, 2019)

The solution is to boot out the cranks, if this is soluble. I don't know if it is. I doubt that would be enough to kill it.


----------



## danny la rouge (Jul 18, 2019)

Rivendelboy said:


> even if the claims about Corbyn and the cranks are true.


So long as the Labour leadership prevaricates, Corbyn’s enemies (within and outwith Labour) can capitalise on the prevarication. 

The whole problem is the “if”.


----------



## danny la rouge (Jul 18, 2019)

killer b said:


> The solution is to boot out the cranks, if this is soluble. I don't know if it is. I doubt that would be enough to kill it.


Probably not now.


----------



## LDC (Jul 18, 2019)

killer b said:


> The solution is to boot out the cranks, if this is soluble. I don't know if it is. I doubt that would be enough to kill it.



Some expulsions, political education, and getting a grip of local branches and Momentum might have helped a while ago, now I'm not so sure it can be done. It's a problem in the left outside the Labour party as well, and that's not being dealt with either.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 18, 2019)

Rivendelboy said:


> What's the solution here (with a view to making labour electable so as to oust fucking Boris Trump)?
> 
> Cobyn isn't going anywhere unless he stands down and that doesn't seem to be his desire. His opponents are not people I want in charge, even if the claims about Corbyn and the cranks are true. They also won't win a leadership challenge.
> 
> ...


Don't know if everyone can access it (£wall?) but Will Davies' recent LRB piece attempts to address the current failure of the 'main' parties to effectively manufacture the impression of consent.

LRB · William Davies · They don’t even need ideas: Take Nigel Farage ...


----------



## killer b (Jul 18, 2019)

you can read 4 articles a month on the LRB before the paywall goes up


----------



## Proper Tidy (Jul 18, 2019)

Obviously deliberate provocation from Hayter and of course the anti corbyn factions like labour first use antisemitism as a factional stick but the stick only works if you give it to them


----------



## killer b (Jul 18, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Some expulsions, political education, and getting a grip of local branches and Momentum might have helped a while ago, now I'm not so sure it can be done. It's a problem in the left outside the Labour party as well, and that's not being dealt with either.


I'm not sure momentum are really a problem - they seem to actually have a reasonable grasp of the situation. It's the aging time-served cranks who're shitting it right up. 

Clive Lewis wrote an ok article for the Independent the other day, but it's difficult to imagine such a programme being rolled out under current conditions. 

Opinion: I know that Labour can rid itself of antisemitism – here's how


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jul 18, 2019)

killer b said:


> The solution is to boot out the cranks, if this is soluble. I don't know if it is. I doubt that would be enough to kill it.



Getting rid of anti-semites is important but they are relatively small in number and hold almost no influence or sway in the party. The far bigger problem is that the Ideological divide between Corbyn’s small group of parliamentary allies and the rest of the PLP. Concern about anti-semitism is not the important dividing line between them, neo-liberalism is. Corbyn’s project is anathema to most of the Parliamentary party and even if all traces of anti-semitism were eradicated from the party they would invent another reason to campaign mercilessly against him.

It has been obvious for some time now that Corbyn’s team and Watson’s team cannot Co-exist in the same party. There are 3 solutions to the present impasse: (1) Corbyn is ousted as leader; (2) there is a mass deselection of most of the PLP or (3) the party splits.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 18, 2019)

killer b said:


> you can read 4 articles a month on the LRB before the paywall goes up


Thanks.
Wasn't sure as I'm a (rolling £12 = 12 issues) subscriber & get full archive access.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Jul 18, 2019)

killer b said:


> I'm not sure momentum are really a problem - they seem to actually have a reasonable grasp of the situation. It's the aging time-served cranks who're shitting it right up.
> 
> Clive Lewis wrote an ok article for the Independent the other day, but it's difficult to imagine such a programme being rolled out under current conditions.
> 
> Opinion: I know that Labour can rid itself of antisemitism – here's how


Depends what you mean by Momentum I think. My impression is that the emerged intellectual class of Momentum have a grasp (although plenty of shit politics still), large swathes of laymembers and some (quite a lot) of specific Momentum branches however...


----------



## andysays (Jul 18, 2019)

killer b said:


> The solution is to boot out the cranks, if this is soluble. I don't know if it is. I doubt that would be enough to kill it.


I assume you mean the antisemitic cranks, and I agree they need to be booted out.

But there are apparently plenty of anti-Corbyn cranks prepared to indulge in ridiculous hyperbole like today's nonsense. It appears that some of them would rather destroy the party than allow the Corbyn leadership to continue, so I'm not sure that it is 'soluble' now.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 18, 2019)

andysays said:


> I assume you mean the antisemitic cranks, and I agree they need to be booted out.
> 
> But there are apparently plenty of anti-Corbyn cranks prepared to indulge in ridiculous hyperbole like today's nonsense. It appears that some of them would rather destroy the party than allow the Corbyn leadership to continue, so I'm not sure that it is 'soluble' now.


Not convinced they see their mission as destruction of the party; I'd imagine they believe they're in the process of wresting their party back from the socialists.


----------



## killer b (Jul 18, 2019)

Those guys were crushed though, politically destroyed. This totally avoidable situation has given them new life.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 18, 2019)

killer b said:


> Those guys were crushed though, politically destroyed.



Think like a psychopath; that's not how they'd perceive their lot.


----------



## danny la rouge (Jul 18, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> It's a problem in the left outside the Labour party as well, and that's not being dealt with either.


Correct. All we get is “criticism of the actions of the Israeli state does not equal antisemitism” (this is a deflection - it doesn’t necessarily. But criticism of the Israeli state is not the extent of what we’re dealing with), and the non condemnation impulse that seems to come with simplistic statist anti imperialism. 

We _all_ need to root it out.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 18, 2019)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Getting rid of anti-semites is important but they are relatively small in number and hold almost no influence or sway in the party. The far bigger problem is that the Ideological divide between Corbyn’s small group of parliamentary allies and the rest of the PLP. Concern about anti-semitism is not the important dividing line between them, neo-liberalism is. Corbyn’s project is anathema to most of the Parliamentary party and even if all traces of anti-semitism were eradicated from the party they would invent another reason to campaign mercilessly against him.
> 
> It has been obvious for some time now that Corbyn’s team and Watson’s team cannot Co-exist in the same party. There are 3 solutions to the present impasse: (1) Corbyn is ousted as leader; (2) there is a mass deselection of most of the PLP or (3) the party splits.



I agree with this in the main but with two important caveats:

1. The AS cranks _are _small in number and, whilst noisy in the swampy hinterland, hold little real sway. But they aren't the problem. They can, and to some extent are, being booted out. It's the prevarication of Corbyn, and specifically his failure to move his thinking on beyond student politics level crass and reductive understandings of the wider process in respect of Israel. This presents an open goal for those who want to weaponise the issue.

2. I would add a 4th scenario - Corbyn steps down and, preferably McDonnell but someone politically and intellectually signed up to dialing back advanced liberalism, replaces him. Yes, the inherent tensions you identify would remain and at some point will be fought out but McDonnell is a sharper operator that Corbyn, a harder worker on detail and more flexible on peripheral stuff if it means the core economic and social project remains on track.


----------



## Mr Moose (Jul 18, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> those things jumped the shark years ago



No way! I was just finishing one for this very forum!


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 18, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Correct. All we get is “criticism of the actions of the Israeli state does not equal antisemitism” (this is a deflection - it doesn’t necessarily. But criticism of the Israeli state is not the extent of what we’re dealing with), and the non condemnation impulse that seems to come with simplistic statist anti imperialism.



Nail on the head.


----------



## LDC (Jul 18, 2019)

..


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 18, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> ..


yeh they're dotty


----------



## Mr Moose (Jul 18, 2019)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Getting rid of anti-semites is important but they are relatively small in number and hold almost no influence or sway in the party. The far bigger problem is that the Ideological divide between Corbyn’s small group of parliamentary allies and the rest of the PLP. Concern about anti-semitism is not the important dividing line between them, neo-liberalism is. Corbyn’s project is anathema to most of the Parliamentary party and even if all traces of anti-semitism were eradicated from the party they would invent another reason to campaign mercilessly against him.
> 
> It has been obvious for some time now that Corbyn’s team and Watson’s team cannot Co-exist in the same party. There are 3 solutions to the present impasse: (1) Corbyn is ousted as leader; (2) there is a mass deselection of most of the PLP or (3) the party splits.



Good post, but is it completely the case? Labour isn’t arguing about policy very much and McDonnell is not signalling some all out attack on capital. There is potential maybe.

I think there are wider disagreements, like Corbyn’s positions he takes on foreign policy and then simply his leadership style. Brexit too of course. 

Corbyn has done a lot of good, but in his name the Labour Party has inherited some real flakes who will drag it down. He hasn’t dealt with it and that makes option one by far the easiest and most likely. Yes there will be other reasons, unfair, illogical, discriminatory, just like with Ed Miliband. But that’s why it’s a tough tough job and not one Corbyn appears up to.


----------



## killer b (Jul 18, 2019)

Worth reading this article in the spectator about the Labour right's current strategy - despite the trouble Corbyn is in, this doesn't seem to be very solid.

Cutting out Corbyn: could Tom Watson’s centrist ‘Momentum’ save Labour? | The Spectator


----------



## Proper Tidy (Jul 18, 2019)

The labour right, Change UK, all have this wobbly central piece of jigsaw in that they believe they can (and must) rally a grassroots army like Momentum to the clarion call of liberalism. Which as the dominant status quo of last four decades it can't do, it's failing not just domestically but globally, the growth of radical right (and to lesser extent Corbynism, Podemos etc) demonstrates this. Perhaps on wedge issues like remain but as an overarching political movement, nah.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Jul 18, 2019)

TLr they're trying to fill the vacuum with empty space


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jul 18, 2019)

You're never going to really engage with large numbers of people with a platform of vague centrism are you. If you can keep the electorate sufficiently disengaged you can maybe persuade enough of them to vote for you but they're not going to be out doing the door-knocking etc.


----------



## cantsin (Jul 18, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Some expulsions, political education, and getting a grip of local branches and Momentum might have helped a while ago, now I'm not so sure it can be done. It's a problem in the left outside the Labour party as well, and that's not being dealt with either.



Not sure why yr including Momentum in this - the cranks have gone anti Momentum ever since Lansman pulled support for Pete Wilsman off the Mom NEC slate a year ago, Lansman has gone v much the other way, as has Momentum generally - what form wld this ' getting  a grip of CLPs / Momentum' take in your view anyway ?


----------



## cantsin (Jul 18, 2019)

killer b said:


> The solution is to boot out the cranks, if this is soluble. I don't know if it is. I doubt that would be enough to kill it.



boot them out from where ? closed Facebook groups ? anonymous twitter accounts ?

ts the risk of repeating myself: they don't exist at 99.9 % of CLP meets / or in real world Labour politcs.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 18, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> The labour right, Change UK, all have this wobbly central piece of jigsaw in that they believe they can (and must) rally a grassroots army like Momentum to the clarion call of liberalism. Which as the dominant status quo of last four decades it can't do, it's failing not just domestically but globally, the growth of radical right (and to lesser extent Corbynism, Podemos etc) demonstrates this. Perhaps on wedge issues like remain but as an overarching political movement, nah.



The basic problem for the proponents of double liberalism is that their intellectual tank is bone dry. They are therefore reduced to wailing impotently about 'populism' and its dangers.

Their stated appeal - a return to centrist management of advanced liberalism via the injection of social liberalism into economic liberalism - is clapped out through experience (in America, in Europe and in Britain). They cannot move beyond this and the slogans and ideas of Clinton, Blair and so on because the planned next step has collapsed. As such their Remain fanaticism is the total extent of their thinking. They have no strategy beyond this because a) their great hope Macron has cracked under immediate contact with the Gilet Jaune led working class resistance to his attempt push through the agenda of the EU's embedded interests - greater competition, the opening up of the state to privatisation, welfare cuts and austerity measures etc but also b) because they cannot even find space for new ideas within the EU's constitutional constraints because of the relationship between the economic,  policy and legal framework of the EU, the EU's deep embedded political economy and the balance of forces within Europe.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 18, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> The basic problem for the proponents of double liberalism is that their intellectual tank is bone dry. They are therefore reduced to wailing impotently about 'populism' and its dangers.
> 
> Their stated appeal - a return to centrist management of advanced liberalism via the injection of social liberalism into economic liberalism - is clapped out through experience (in America, in Europe and in Britain). They cannot move beyond this and the slogans and ideas of Clinton, Blair and so on because the planned next step has collapsed. As such their Remain fanaticism is the total extent of their thinking. They have no strategy beyond this because a) their great hope Macron has cracked under immediate contact with the Gilet Jaune led working class resistance to his attempt push through the agenda of the EU's embedded interests - greater competition, the opening up of the state to privatisation, welfare cuts and austerity measures etc but also b) because they find space for new ideas within the EU's constitutional constraints because of the relationship between the policy and legal framework of the EU, the EU's embedded political economy and the balance of forces within Europe.


i think it's because they're a bunch of intellectual featherweights who have no experience of doing a recognisable day's work and have had no real interaction with people outside their class or political bubble.


----------



## killer b (Jul 18, 2019)

cantsin said:


> boot them out from where ? closed Facebook groups ? anonymous twitter accounts ?
> 
> ts the risk of repeating myself: they don't exist at 99.9 % of CLP meets / or in real world Labour politcs.


That isn't true.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Jul 18, 2019)

cantsin said:


> boot them out from where ? closed Facebook groups ? anonymous twitter accounts ?
> 
> ts the risk of repeating myself: they don't exist at 99.9 % of CLP meets / or in real world Labour politcs.


Williamson's too apologetic comments were at a Momentum meeting weren't they


----------



## Proper Tidy (Jul 18, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> The basic problem for the proponents of double liberalism is that their intellectual tank is bone dry. They are therefore reduced to wailing impotently about 'populism' and its dangers.
> 
> Their stated appeal - a return to centrist management of advanced liberalism via the injection of social liberalism into economic liberalism - is clapped out through experience (in America, in Europe and in Britain). They cannot move beyond this and the slogans and ideas of Clinton, Blair and so on because the planned next step has collapsed. As such their Remain fanaticism is the total extent of their thinking. They have no strategy beyond this because a) their great hope Macron has cracked under immediate contact with the Gilet Jaune led working class resistance to his attempt push through the agenda of the EU's embedded interests - greater competition, the opening up of the state to privatisation, welfare cuts and austerity measures etc but also b) because they cannot even find space for new ideas within the EU's constitutional constraints because of the relationship between the economic,  policy and legal framework of the EU, the EU's deep embedded political economy and the balance of forces within Europe.


Re: Macron - they clung on to his election as evidence that liberalism not dying, ignoring context of it, that it was an unethusiastic vote motivated by fear of FN. Deaf to the political reality


----------



## cantsin (Jul 18, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Williamson's too apologetic comments were at a Momentum meeting weren't they



yep, and Momentum rank + file seem divided re: CW - but the leadership have been unequivocal, as have prominent supporters. CW is out, does anyone also want Mom Sheffield expelled ? All members ?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 18, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Re: Macron - they clung on to his election as evidence that liberalism not dying, ignoring context of it, that it was an unethusiastic vote motivated by fear of FN. Deaf to the political reality



It was more, I think, a relief that they were still competitive against 'the populists'. 

Changing the subject but only slightly, what is truly remarkable in France is that Macron's now critically injured implementation project of EU neo-liberalism and the rebranded fascists are _still miles ahead of the left. _Instructive for those urging labour to go further in its embrace of the economic and social integration federal Europe project and to dump the working class.


----------



## killer b (Jul 18, 2019)

cantsin said:


> the leadership have been unequivocal, as have prominent supporters. CW is out,


Lol what?


----------



## cantsin (Jul 18, 2019)

killer b said:


> Lol what?



Momentum leadership, plus Bastani / OJ / Sarakar etc : no support for CW / + support for his suspension, as the cranks have frothingly noted


----------



## belboid (Jul 18, 2019)

killer b said:


> That isn't true.


Yeah, its probably only 99% of meetings in reality. Most branch meetings and events are far more boring than that. 

The idea that getting rid of the relatively few conspiraloons and cranks will make any difference (even if they could accurately be targetted) is nonsense though.  It isn't about the cranks, it's all about Israel. And Corbyn having a slightly more nuanced view on Israel would make absolutely zero difference either.  Anything short of wholehearted support for Israel and its 'right to self-defence' is unacceptable and 'anti-semitic.'  Nothing Corbyn can do will change that.


----------



## danny la rouge (Jul 18, 2019)

cantsin said:


> CW is out,


Arms bent, knees bent, rah rah rah!

A study in ineffectual prevarication, sadly.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Jul 18, 2019)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Getting rid of anti-semites is important but they are relatively small in number and hold almost no influence or sway in the party. The far bigger problem is that the Ideological divide between Corbyn’s small group of parliamentary allies and the rest of the PLP. Concern about anti-semitism is not the important dividing line between them, neo-liberalism is. Corbyn’s project is anathema to most of the Parliamentary party and even if all traces of anti-semitism were eradicated from the party they would invent another reason to campaign mercilessly against him.
> 
> It has been obvious for some time now that Corbyn’s team and Watson’s team cannot Co-exist in the same party. There are 3 solutions to the present impasse: (1) Corbyn is ousted as leader; (2) there is a mass deselection of most of the PLP or (3) the party splits.


The reasons it has dragged on for so long is because the people in power im Labour aren't bothered by it and because Corbyn is a useless leader, both need to go.


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## cantsin (Jul 18, 2019)

belboid said:


> Yeah, its probably only 99% of meetings in reality. Most branch meetings and events are far more boring than that.
> 
> The idea that getting rid of the relatively few conspiraloons and cranks will make any difference (even if they could accurately be targetted) is nonsense though.  It isn't about the cranks, it's all about Israel. And Corbyn having a slightly more nuanced view on Israel would make absolutely zero difference either.  Anything short of wholehearted support for Israel and its 'right to self-defence' is unacceptable and 'anti-semitic.'  Nothing Corbyn can do will change that.



hate to say it, but the fact that this comment would now mark you out as AS on soc media tells us a lot about how this has all panned out over the last 4 years.


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## cantsin (Jul 18, 2019)

sleaterkinney said:


> The reasons it has dragged on for so long is because the people in power im Labour aren't bothered by it and because Corbyn is a useless leader, both need to go.



thanks for sharing, we haven't heard this same old unsubstantiated bollocks 2m times over the last 4 yrs


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## butchersapron (Jul 18, 2019)

Getting rid of the loons and anti-semites is a pretty good thing in itself - so do it. Defending them because of who has attacked them and who the attacks are really aimed at is a pretty bad thing - so don't do it. This_ defend this defend that _paranoid shouty trot style that seems to set the tone of the more leftish responses to this is very reminiscent of the worst of  the old days of SWP chest prodding.


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## belboid (Jul 18, 2019)

It's not paranoia when there really are obvious plots to undermine and discredit Corbyn's leadership. And plenty of the people being accused are actually guilty of fuck all, and so should absolutely be defended. I'm not defending the conspiraloons or those who deny that there is any issue at all, but they _are _being dealt with, and much more quickly than they were under the hypocrite McNicol.


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## Wilf (Jul 18, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> Getting rid of the loons and anti-semites is a pretty good thing in itself - so do it. Defending them because of who has attacked them and who the attacks are really aimed at is a pretty bad thing - so don't do it. This_ defend this defend that _paranoid shouty trot style that seems to set the tone of the more leftish responses to this is very reminiscent of the worst of  the old days of SWP chest prodding.


Yes, certainly they should get rid of the loons and anti-semites, stop fucking about. Trouble is, the attacks on Corbyn over anti-Semitism have got conflated with so many other things that they won't stop. There's no way to stop these attacks simply with statements, meetings and policies. It really is, as you say, about flushing those longstanding swp style assumptions and habits of mind, the neo-gallowayism that Corbyn and a lot of the others come out of. And you need to do that before you can start thinking about genuine solidarity with the Palestinians.


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## Wilf (Jul 18, 2019)

belboid said:


> It's not paranoia when there really are obvious plots to undermine and discredit Corbyn's leadership. And plenty of the people being accused are actually guilty of fuck all, and so should absolutely be defended. I'm not defending the conspiraloons or those who deny that there is any issue at all, but they _are _being dealt with, and much more quickly than they were under the hypocrite McNicol.


I agree, but the real problem is that too many on 'the left' and the labour left have opened up a space where the anti-corbyn project has been grafted onto anti-Semitism accusations.


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## butchersapron (Jul 18, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Yes, certainly they should get rid of the loons and anti-semites, stop fucking about. Trouble is, the attacks on Corbyn over anti-Semitism have got conflated with so many other things that they won't stop. There's no way to stop these attacks simply with statements, meetings and policies. It really is, as you say, about flushing those longstanding swp style assumptions and habits of mind, the neo-gallowayism that Corbyn and a lot of the others come out of. And you need to do that before you can start thinking about genuine solidarity with the Palestinians.


My reading is that there also is no single cause here - say Israel. There is a coalition of people concerned with 'pre-emptive defence' of Israeli interests who think they can do this via a mix of publicising claims of anti-semitism and real semitism and linking them to the leadership centre and then a group of PLP and labour party staff and members who ideologically oppose what Corbyn means for the party, the party that they by and large signed up for and committed to at a time when the left was pretty much a dead force in the party, or who they played a leading role in defeating in the party - and they're happy to go along with the former, but defence or furtherance of Israeli state interests doesn't play a central role in their thinking or actions beyond generic right to exist stuff. 

The only ones who think it's solely about Israel are, imo, the loons and their mirror image on the other side - but that seems to have tempted those opposed primarily (or solely) to the latter anti-left stuff into a coalition of their own that centres on defending the loons as reflex - the old trot sectarian defence of the indefensible and the blind-eyeing of stuff that they think they need to keep quiet about for wider interests. See RESPECT, see ongoing stalinism as regards syria and other places. It's like all the criticisms of campism from these traditions have gone into reverse and it's pick a side time, _prods chest, pick a side._


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## Mr Moose (Jul 18, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> Getting rid of the loons and anti-semites is a pretty good thing in itself - so do it. Defending them because of who has attacked them and who the attacks are really aimed at is a pretty bad thing - so don't do it. This_ defend this defend that _paranoid shouty trot style that seems to set the tone of the more leftish responses to this is very reminiscent of the worst of  the old days of SWP chest prodding.



That’s fine in respect of the shouty onlookers, but there seems to be evidence that the leadership is also finding reasons not to deal with it, even after several opportunities/promises to sort its processes and behaviour.

On the contrary, Labour’s response to last week’s programme seemed to create a wave of further social media conspiraloonacy from the flakes without Corbyn or others in the leadership telling them to STFU.

Yet there is an obdurate loyalty to Corbyn here which is also cultish, our only chance electorally, however flawed, to push back the neo-libs rather than someone whose failings are likely to shut that door.


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## butchersapron (Jul 18, 2019)

Mr Moose said:


> That’s fine in respect of the shouty onlookers, but there seems to be evidence that the leadership is also finding reasons not to deal with it, even after several opportunities/promises to sort its processes and behaviour.
> 
> On the contrary, Labour’s response to last week’s programme seemed to create a wave of further social media conspiraloonacy from the flakes without Corbyn or others in the leadership telling them to STFU.
> 
> Yet there is an obdurate loyalty to Corbyn here which is also cultish, our only chance electorally, however flawed, to push back the neo-libs rather than someone whose failings are likely to shut that door.



Well, on this i simply do not know. Are the things promised last year being put in place, being carried out - are they having a beneficial effect etc? I don't know how this could be judged yet. I do know that emphasis is being focused on the loons by the coaliton i mentioned above regardless to suggest exactly the above though - that nothing is being done, or what is being done is being done ineptly or deliberately sabotaged - possibly on purpose because of political sympathies with the loons - by a leadership cabal. Frankly, i don't buy that and i've not seen any evidence to support it.

If the party's criticism's of the program are accurate - lines deleted from emails, omitting the content of gen sec interventions in order to give a diametrically opposed view of the intervention and its intention etc then i think they have every right - and no other option - to respond as they have done. I don't think that created the loonery or boosted it. This people just exist. Which is why they need to be gone. The leadership cannot and will not have any impact on them. They are too lost in their jews did this worldview to come back.

After all this, and hating corbyn politically i recognise exactly why people are loyal to him and the promise they see in him - and are right to fight back. But that doesn't mean every fightback has to take the shape of either loonery or any of the more political stuff coming from the ex-hard left.


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## treelover (Jul 18, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Did she wake up that morning and think "Hmmm, what can I say that will absolutely 100% definitely get me sacked today?" FFS.




she has said it was reported out of context, that she was was talking about a book about how many many leaders have adopted a 'bunker mentality' going back centuries, she came across very considered on R4


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## butchersapron (Jul 18, 2019)

_Labour Peer claims Hitler would have been victorious if he listened to jews. _


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## treelover (Jul 18, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Thanks.
> Wasn't sure as I'm a (rolling £12 = 12 issues) subscriber & get full archive access.



LRB is really good, the essay on Grimsby pre 2017 election was excellent, might try and cobble together 12 quid know i know you have back copies included.


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## killer b (Jul 18, 2019)

treelover said:


> LRB is really good, the essay on Grimsby pre 2017 election was excellent, might try and cobble together 12 quid know i know you have back copies included.


Current subscribers get to bestow a free year's subscription to a friend each time they renew, so it's worthwhile doing a callout on the LRB thread to see if anyone is about to renew before parting with the cash (I'd nominate you but I've just done someone else so it'll be another year before mine comes up again...)


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## treelover (Jul 18, 2019)

tx anyway.


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 18, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> And the dog ate my homework.



TBF, I'd believe ANY accusations of such shite from Iain McNicol. The bloke was and is a poisonous Blairite toad.


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## Gaia (Jul 18, 2019)

th





cupid_stunt said:


> Corbyn sacks shadow Brexit minister for ‘Hitler in the bunker’ comment
> 
> Wow!



Thing is, though, she's got a damned good point, and the response from The Party has been to accuse HER of anti-Semitism, by calling her comment "truly contemptible and grossly offensive to Jewish colleagues in particular", which I see as just yet another example of Labour's deflection tactics - The Party isn't anti-Semitic, so those criticising The Party must be. 

Hitler had his critics executed, all Jezza can do - at Milne's behest - is sack them, and why do that if there isn't the tiniest grain of truth in what they're saying…? If they're talking bullshit, then The Party should be able to produce robust evidence that what they're saying isn't true, sacking them rather proves the opposite. 

He is rendering - or, most probably has rendered - Labour completely unelectable. What I can foresee happening is that those who have been sacked, and hopefully others will examine their consciences and come to the conclusion that they cannot in good conscience remain a Labour MP, and will resign. This will leave Jezza with - at most - 18 or 20 (guesstimated figure) loyalists. 

I think that it's a grave mistake to focus too much on Corbyn, when the driving force is Seumas Milne. I don't believe we can really know what JC thinks about anything - bar Europe - when Milne is telling him what to think. Whilst Jezza has dabbled in Communism (he was a member of the British Communist Party), Milne is a full-blown commie, who lamented the fall of the Berlin Wall, and the demise of the DDR, ("Saying the fall of the Wall was a good thing has become a loyalty test for Germans") and has become an apologist for terrorism, calling the world domination ideology of Al-Qaeda and ISIS "Western disinformation". According to an article he wrote in The Guardian in 2014, Russia's 2014 annexation of Crimea would never have happened if the US and EU hadn't "sponsored the protests to oust the corrupt, but democratically elected, Viktor Yanukovych", a claim for which he has yet to produce any credible evidence (The clash in Crimea is the fruit of western expansion | Seumas Milne).

Corbyn was very much for a two-state solution, in line with the cross-party Friends of Israel group, so I wonder how much his embracing of those who would see Israel annihilated, such as Galloway and Hatton (I don't like Williamson, but I don't know enough to say if he's an anti-Zionist hardliner, or not. I know he's a Holocaust denier, so…) is on the advice of Milne. I don't believe it would be hyperbolic to suggest that Milne is Labour's de facto leader, and Jezza is simply his willing mupp… er puppet). (as an aside, I do think that the FoI need to come up with a better name, one that makes it totally unambiguous that they are NOT supporters of the Netanyahu regime). Milne's strategy is working, as the petition to oust Watson proves; sadly, Corbynistas (or should we perhaps now refer to them as Milneites…?) have drunk deeply of the Kool-Aid (that needs to be Anglicised).

I bet Margaret Beckett is ruing the day she suggested JC be added to the leadership ballot paper "for breadth" (especially as she has been the target of some of the vilest anti-Semitic abuse). Corbyn may not be anti-Semitic, but he's being advised by someone who unashamedly is. Even if he was to sack Milne - which he won't - JC has proven he has zero ability to form policy off his own back. 

Oh and another thing, according to Kevin Schofield editor of Politics Home, the Party leadership contacted the BBC to demand that Panorama wasn't aired because, according to Schofield, Labour asked the BBC to: "suspend and reconsider the planned broadcast". The complaint claims that the programme is biased against the party, places "undue influence" on the Equalities and Human Rights Commission's own probe, contains "unsubstantiated allegations", calls on the BBC to do the same exposé into Tory anti-Muslim bias, and claims presenter John Ware "has an anti-Corbyn agenda". Paranoid, much…? 

The thread is, as you can probably imagine, filled with the whinings and wailings of Corbynistas. One demands to know how many Jews  are employed by the BBC, another claims that the title "Is Labour anti-Semitic?" "gives the assumption to the viewer that Labour is anti-Semitic", and therefore this means that the BBC is biased against Corbyn and Labour. 

Labour goes to war with BBC over Panorama probe into anti-semitism in party

Full text: Labour complaint letter to BBC about Panorama antisemitism episode - LabourList

John Ware's response on the Jewish Chronicle website: 'If Labour wants a fight, bring it on,' says Panorama's John Ware

Labour seems to be demanding that any future BBC programmes where it is the subject should be subject to leadership approval. Jezza and Seumas don't like it, it doesn't air. It really is incredibly sinister.


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## killer b (Jul 18, 2019)

I thought the Corbynites were supposed to be the conspiracy theorists.


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## butchersapron (Jul 18, 2019)

I wonder was Corbyn's period in the British Communist Party at some point after he joined the labour party in his teens or before? Or ongoing?


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## butchersapron (Jul 18, 2019)

Also...jesus.


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## Proper Tidy (Jul 18, 2019)

Fucking hippies


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## killer b (Jul 18, 2019)

Gaia said:


> (guesstimated figure)


this is my favourite bit.


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 18, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> Real jews, just doing jew things. _Working to achieve their aims. _Their hidden malevolent nefarious_ anti-british _aims_._
> 
> Not state things. _Jew things._



Yep. It's our rootless cosmopolitanism that catches us out every time. We can't support the aims of the countries we reside in, because that would contradict our overwhelming need to control the whole world, preferably through finance capitalism and manipulation of the military-industrial complex.


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## eoin_k (Jul 18, 2019)

treelover said:


> LRB is really good, the essay on Grimsby pre 2017 election was excellent, might try and cobble together 12 quid know i know you have back copies included.



Someone with a subscription might be able to get you a freebie 12-month deal.


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 18, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> Poor green's though...



Middle class twats deserve everything they get, and I say that as a member!


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 18, 2019)

Bernie Gunther said:


> So Facebook's former Chief Security Officer (now Prof at and Director of Stanford Uni's Internet Observatory) often has some interesting stuff to say about political disinformation campaigns.
> 
> He's mainly talking about attributing disinformation campaigns in the context of Russia in the linked article, but perhaps some of it is worth considering in this case?
> 
> ...



I still favour William of Ockham's shaving kit methodology when dealing with this stuff.


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 18, 2019)

Cloo said:


> I think kebabking puts it very well.
> 
> One might well be able to say Corbyn is an anti-semite, but he's not a Jew-hater (which I see as two different things). The Nazis were not mere anti-semites, they are outright Jew haters. People who think it's clever to mutter about Rothschilds and Zionist conspiracies but say they have nothing against Jews are anti-semites, but not Jew haters.



They may think they're clever, but fortunately for most of us, we know their cleverness is actually crass stupidity. I mean, the old "Rothschild Zionist" line is a trope straight out of David Icke's arsehole.



> Corbyn's Labour, to my mind, poses zero existential threat to Jews (and it pisses me off when my co-religionists act as if it does) but it doesn't understand its own anti-semitism and it doesn't really understand who Jews are.



Had an argument with a "revolutionary socialist" (former RCG and AWL member) who is nonetheless a Corbynite. He claimed that the anti-Semitism issue is caused by Jews - not by the state of Israel and its supporters, but by British Jews - to undermine Corbyn. He wouldn't have it that the whole thing was the product of a confluence of a) Corbyn's inability to control Labour Friends of Israel's PLP membership and their (usually) fantasy claims of a/s in the leadership, b) Israel's ambassadors to Britain and their underlings stirring the pot in the media, in order to undermine any British Labour politician who doesn't toe the line, and c), the UK media's own philo-Semitism as a tool to invalidate the idea of even a social-democratic govt - let's face it, Corbyn's socialism is weak, and those who claim he's a dangerous Marxist, Communist or Marxist Communist, are weak in the head.


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 18, 2019)

treelover said:


> Tracey Ann Obermann was on Victoria Derbyshire, its a hard watch, some of the things she says that (alledgely) Corbyn supporters have said to her are worthy of any Moselyite, 'dirty jew' 'your North London cabal's time is over'
> 
> Labour could have been on the brink of power, helping the millions, many whose life is hell, can't forgive them, out they go.



Oberman is a "useful idiot". Most of her interaction with alleged Corbyn supporters is on Twitter, often with "Corbyn supporters" with few followers - usual sign of a bot. I wouldn't piss in her mouth if her back teeth were on fire. She arguably helps foster anti-Semitism with her dingbat attack-dog attitude.


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## Pickman's model (Jul 18, 2019)

treelover said:


> Tracey Ann Obermann was on Victoria Derbyshire, its a hard watch, some of the things she says that (alledgely) Corbyn supporters have said to her are worthy of any Moselyite, 'dirty jew' 'your North London cabal's time is over'
> 
> Labour could have been on the brink of power, helping the millions, many whose life is hell, can't forgive them, out they go.


Did you know this thread is the only place on the Internet known to Google where the phrase "your north london cabal's time is over" can be found?


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## Cloo (Jul 18, 2019)

ViolentPanda said:


> T
> Had an argument with a "revolutionary socialist" (former RCG and AWL member) who is nonetheless a Corbynite. He claimed that the anti-Semitism issue is caused by Jews - not by the state of Israel and its supporters, but by British Jews - to undermine Corbyn. He wouldn't have it that the whole thing was the product of a confluence of a) Corbyn's inability to control Labour Friends of Israel's PLP membership and their (usually) fantasy claims of a/s in the leadership, b) Israel's ambassadors to Britain and their underlings stirring the pot in the media, in order to undermine any British Labour politician who doesn't toe the line, and c), the UK media's own philo-Semitism as a tool to invalidate the idea of even a social-democratic govt - let's face it, Corbyn's socialism is weak, and those who claim he's a dangerous Marxist, Communist or Marxist Communist, are weak in the head.


It is frustrating because to me, the anti-semitism in Labour is both real and weaponised. Above all weaponised by the right wing, yes, including right-wing Jews, but it is especially infuriating to see it used as a cosh against socialism by non-Jewish people who don't give a fuck about us otherwise.


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## agricola (Jul 18, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Did you know this thread is the only place on the Internet known to Google where the phrase "your north london cabal's time is over" can be found?



Thats shocking; I'd have presumed it was on the Arsenal 2017-18 thread too.


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## Mr Moose (Jul 18, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> Well, on this i simply do not know. Are the things promised last year being put in place, being carried out - are they having a beneficial effect etc? I don't know how this could be judged yet. I do know that emphasis is being focused on the loons by the coaliton i mentioned above regardless to suggest exactly the above though - that nothing is being done, or what is being done is being done ineptly or deliberately sabotaged - possibly on purpose because of political sympathies with the loons - by a leadership cabal. Frankly, i don't buy that and i've not seen any evidence to support it.
> 
> If the party's criticism's of the program are accurate - lines deleted from emails, omitting the content of gen sec interventions in order to give a diametrically opposed view of the intervention and its intention etc then i think they have every right - and no other option - to respond as they have done. I don't think that created the loonery or boosted it. This people just exist. Which is why they need to be gone. The leadership cannot and will not have any impact on them. They are too lost in their jews did this worldview to come back.
> 
> After all this, and hating corbyn politically i recognise exactly why people are loyal to him and the promise they see in him - and are right to fight back. But that doesn't mean every fightback has to take the shape of either loonery or any of the more political stuff coming from the ex-hard left.



To your first point, I’m sure some of them are trying to make a difference. The willingness of many people to revile figures like Jenny Formby or even Seamus Milne, without substantial evidence or process or any kind of window into their minds, is fundamentally unfair.

What troubles me is the apparent dysfunction. Unless some Labyrinthine conspiracy involving the whistleblowers is established (and it won’t be) they are people who must have at some point had enough faith in Labour to want to work there. Now they appear utterly disaffected by the experience. Going public they have simply drawn further condemnation and abuse from the flakes for Jeremy brigade. 

It’s a circle of failing with JC at the centre. Most of the antisemitism expressed has a reaction to criticism of JC at its core. I’ve missed it if he has engaged with that. He appears withdrawn much of the time, not able to engage with much of the Jewish community, or to reach out to those who get abused or to control those doing the abusing. That’s not enough. Labour can’t have a leader who is a bigot magnet, whatever his own qualities.

I cannot see how Corbyn can move it on and therefore it’s going to remain there, ready to be amplified a thousand fold on demand by enemies and wasting Labour’s own energy and political capital. I’ve gotten around to hoping the EHRC report may offer just a crumb of comfort by injecting some objectivity but it’s not a great hope.


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## weltweit (Jul 18, 2019)

What are people's opinions on the Al Jazeera Lobby video linked to on p89 of this thread?


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## killer b (Jul 18, 2019)

it's exclusively shared by absolute whoppers on social media, as if it's some kind of genius checkmate chess move. So of course, I've never watched it.


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## teqniq (Jul 19, 2019)

Ummm, what?


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## butchersapron (Jul 19, 2019)

Ware asks in that interview - as defence - “Never mind me, why would the legal department at the BBC sanction deliberately misleading the public?”


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## danny la rouge (Jul 19, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> Ware asks in that interview - as defence - “Never mind me, why would the legal department at the BBC sanction deliberately misleading the public?”


It’s not as if they kept it a secret that they were a member of the CBI for decades, or ran the film of Orgreave backwards, or etc.


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## Pickman's model (Jul 19, 2019)

teqniq said:


> Ummm, what?



jesus mary and joseph


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## Bernie Gunther (Jul 19, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> My reading is that there also is no single cause here - say Israel. There is a coalition of people concerned with 'pre-emptive defence' of Israeli interests who think they can do this via a mix of publicising claims of anti-semitism and real semitism and linking them to the leadership centre and then a group of PLP and labour party staff and members who ideologically oppose what Corbyn means for the party, the party that they by and large signed up for and committed to at a time when the left was pretty much a dead force in the party, or who they played a leading role in defeating in the party - and they're happy to go along with the former, but defence or furtherance of Israeli state interests doesn't play a central role in their thinking or actions beyond generic right to exist stuff.
> 
> The only ones who think it's solely about Israel are, imo, the loons and their mirror image on the other side - but that seems to have tempted those opposed primarily (or solely) to the latter anti-left stuff into a coalition of their own that centres on defending the loons as reflex - the old trot sectarian defence of the indefensible and the blind-eyeing of stuff that they think they need to keep quiet about for wider interests. See RESPECT, see ongoing stalinism as regards syria and other places. It's like all the criticisms of campism from these traditions have gone into reverse and it's pick a side time, _prods chest, pick a side._



Yep, part of this is kind of what I was trying to say in cyber-security speak earlier.

A range of people and groups are making the actual accusations, feeding stories to sympathetic media, running trolling campaigns from both sides of the fence etc.

Different actors are doing this for different reasons, and have access to different kinds of capabilities (e.g. front groups, 'legit' groups, media outlets, disgruntled ex-party functionaries, botnets, fake personas, forums and/or lists where they can mobilise a swarm of people for a particular action)

If something one group is doing is obviously working though, e.g. producing exploitable angrily defensive behaviour, or foot in mouth responses from Labour left figures and/or supporters say, then there's a tendency for other actors to pile on, to adopt and amplify the attack, often causing a further exploitable meltdown and so on.

Separately, there are several groups, your 'coalitions' of pro-Israel and right wing Labour, and I would also argue broader capitalist interests, who are trying to exploit (and may to some degree sponsor) those accusations, media events, trolling campaigns etc.

So for instance, I find it highly unlikely that the neonazis trolling Luciana Berger were a 'Mossad false flag operation', that's loonspud talk. It's much more likely they were actual NA edgelords doing the sort of stuff that those pin-heads like to do.

But the coalitions of interests who exploited their action by consistently attributing all the antisemitc abuse directed at Berger to 'Corbynites', until for many people that became the reality, may well have been motivated by e.g. 'pre-emptive defence of Israel' and/or shifting Labour to the right etc.


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## weltweit (Jul 19, 2019)

killer b said:


> it's exclusively shared by absolute whoppers on social media, as if it's some kind of genius checkmate chess move. So of course, I've never watched it.


I watched it, I thought it interesting, and of course now I know where Mark Regev went.


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## killer b (Jul 21, 2019)

Labour have launched this site today - pretty good I think. Or it would have been in 2016 anyway. 

https://labour.org.uk/no-place-for-antisemitism/


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## danny la rouge (Jul 21, 2019)

killer b said:


> Labour have launched this site today - pretty good I think.* Or it would have been in 2016 anyway.*
> 
> https://labour.org.uk/no-place-for-antisemitism/


Well, exactly.

(I actually think the bit on Zionism is a bit confused, but at least it’s overall something that would have been a good response 3 years ago).


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## Serge Forward (Jul 21, 2019)

It's confusing because zionism is not a straightforward thing and is not a monolithic entity.


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## killer b (Jul 21, 2019)

Yeah, I think that bit's ok. They do a reasonable job of explaining something very complex simply.


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## Gramsci (Jul 22, 2019)

killer b said:


> Labour have launched this site today - pretty good I think. Or it would have been in 2016 anyway.
> 
> https://labour.org.uk/no-place-for-antisemitism/



No reference to the expulsion of the Palestinians to create Israel in this.The Nakba isn't mentioned in this document.

I see support of One State solution is at end of article said to be not anti Semitic. Which is good to hear as its my position. But its not that clear from reading the complete article whether this is really the case.


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## killer b (Jul 22, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> No reference to the expulsion of the Palestinians to create Israel in this.The Nakba isn't mentioned in this document.


It's a document about antisemitism.


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## butchersapron (Jul 22, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> No reference to the expulsion of the Palestinians to create Israel in this.The Nakba isn't mentioned in this document.


To do what? Explain that this is what causes anti-semitism? In that case why no mention of being evil money lenders or secretly running the world? I don't think you've quite grasped this.


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## Rivendelboy (Jul 22, 2019)

Yeah i don't think this leaflet is intended as a historical analysis


----------



## Lurdan (Jul 23, 2019)

As one of her final acts Theresa May has appointed John Mann as an independent adviser to the Government on antisemitism

Official statement



> He will also collaborate with Lord Pickles, the UK’s Special Envoy for Post-Holocaust Issues, as well as Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon, the Special Envoy for Freedom of Religion and Belief, to ensure a consistent approach.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 23, 2019)

Lurdan said:


> As one of her final acts Theresa May has appointed John Mann as an independent adviser to the Government on antisemitism
> 
> Official statement


soz where are these people special envoys *to*?


----------



## Lurdan (Jul 23, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> soz where are these people special envoys *to*?


I'm guessing it's to some special executive dining room.


----------



## Mr Moose (Jul 23, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> soz where are these people special envoys *to*?



Greggs the bakers by the look of them.


----------



## ruffneck23 (Jul 23, 2019)

not sure what people on here think of the site, but i did find this quite ironic, but please dont shoot the messenger..

Hodge subject of formal antisemitism complaint by Orthodox Jewish Labour member


----------



## danny la rouge (Jul 23, 2019)

ruffneck23 said:


> not sure what people on here think of the site,


Speaking for myself: that it’s unreliable, unreferenced, shoddy, conspiracy junk that makes the Canary look trustworthy by comparison.


----------



## ruffneck23 (Jul 23, 2019)

ok fair enough, i dont know enough about the subject to give a reasoned comment, but just saw it on another forum and ( digital spy ) and wondered what others might think


----------



## killer b (Jul 23, 2019)

Here's the cunt in Birmingham supporting the anti-LGBT school protests there and going on about the LGBT lobby and indoctrination of children. It took me 30 seconds to check up on him. Skwawkbox are scum.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 5, 2019)

I took part in the Big Ride for Palestine a few weekends ago. It was this year in London and in Manchester. As I cyclist I though it was great and there was a lot of support from passers by in the London route.

A local church in Bethnal Green hosted the riders at the end. Tower Hamlets Council had been asked but turned this down.

An FOI request by the Palestinian Solidarity Campaign found that the real reason for this was that Tower Hamlets has adopted the IHRA definition and emails showed the Council thought this ride contravened the IHRA. But they didn't want to say this publicly.

UK council refused to host Palestinian event over antisemitism fears

Some local London Labour Councils have adopted the IHRA definition plus examples for the area they are in charge in. This isn't just about adopting it for the local Labour party membership.

So non Labour party members like me can still be affected by it. Depending on where we live. In my case Lambeth which has done the same as Tower Hamlets. 




> After looking at the text of the website, an official, whose name was redacted from the released emails, wrote: “It seems therefore, that although the application form raises no issues, the contents of their website does raise the risk that the event will fall foul of the position the council has adopted.”
> 
> In a separate email, the council’s head of sports, leisure and culture said she felt the event should be refused because “the council has recently adopted the [IHRA] definition of antisemitism and there are concerns about the content of the organisation’s website with regard to this”.



The whole route of the bike ride had been agreed with the police. So no issue with the Met. This was a well organised event.

https://www.thebigride4palestine.com/

It was this section of the website:




> The Big Ride for Palestine is opposed to all forms of racism, which includes Islamophobia and anti-Semitism. Active opposition to the crimes of the Israeli state is a responsibility, just as opposition to South African apartheid was a moral and political imperative for many. The pro-Israeli lobby has been very successful in silencing criticism of Israel by consciously conflating criticism of Israel and anti-Semitism. Our opposition is to the actions of the Israeli state, not Jewish people.


----------



## treelover (Aug 5, 2019)

> The Big Ride for Palestine is opposed to all forms of racism, which includes Islamophobia and anti-Semitism. Active opposition to the crimes of the Israeli state is a responsibility, just as opposition to South African apartheid was a moral and political imperative for many. The pro-Israeli lobby has been very successful in silencing criticism of Israel by consciously conflating criticism of Israel and anti-Semitism. Our opposition is to the actions of the Israeli state, not Jewish people.



why put that in, just have the ride, speaks for itself.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 5, 2019)

treelover said:


> why put that in, just have the ride, speaks for itself.



It was in the Q&A question section of the website for those thinking about doing the ride.

Its a reply to question:


> I’m worried about being called anti-Semitic. How can I counter this as it horrifies me be considered racist?


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 15, 2019)

One of the leading members of the Loon Central no we're not getting any Russian/syrian etc help Working Group on Syria, Propaganda and Media (as detailed earlier in this thread and elsewhere) is behind the fundraising for Chris Williamson to sue the labour party. They have raised more than 20 grand in under 24 hours.

(Do click on the write in stone research link at the end as well, may be useful to some)

---

The person running the sue labour fund for Chris 'pfi' Williamson  - David Miller - used to run a site called Necon Europe (now closed) that at one point had an article that used Kevin Macdonald. That name may not mean much to some, but he is anti-semite no1, the einstein of anti-semitism, the most important person in the revival of scientific anti-semitism and a massive voice in the new far right.

So first off, good work Chris Williamson - really helping labour shake off the friendly to anti-semitism accusations, secondly, did anyone keep copies of the original article? I have the summary from the wankers at HUH with now deleted screenshots but not the actual piece.

-----

There also appears to be an ongoing row with the decrepit monkey man-priest Williamson being invited to speak at the main (state sponsored?) Peterloo rally/commemoration on sunday - with _claims_ the council have threatened to cut off the electricity to the event if he speaks. I think you'd have to be a political naif not to read that _claim_ as an attempt at making this all about _defending_ Williamson by the more rabid of his followers.


----------



## Fedayn (Aug 15, 2019)

butchersapron

Miller was up here in Glasgow previously, I  wasn'taware  he had moved on but hardly surprising given I'm not active in ssp type politics anymore. He was close to/in the SWP up here, spoke at a few Marxism events too as I remember.


----------



## inva (Aug 15, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> secondly, did anyone keep copies of the original article? I have the summary from the wankers at HUH with now deleted screenshots but not the actual piece.


I think the Neocon Europe article is The Neconservative Persuasion by Irving Kristol: A Commentary (from archive.org).
I also found a working screenshot from when the article was live which I can add here if it's any use.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 15, 2019)

Yes, that's it thank you.

Interesting to see that Miller also runs powerbase - often used by many on here.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 7, 2019)

Unsurprising?


----------



## belboid (Sep 7, 2019)

'Tsar'

Ironies upon ironies


----------



## Proper Tidy (Sep 7, 2019)

If there is no GE and a by-election in bassetlaw will be interesting to see results. Tories not miles off last time and heavy leave area


----------



## Red Sky (Sep 7, 2019)

belboid said:


> 'Tsar'
> 
> Ironies upon ironies



Brilliant isn't it , hopefully the next one will become the worker's rights Pharoah.


----------



## teqniq (Sep 8, 2019)

Good takedown of the weaponisation of antisemitism within the Labour party and more.

For the first time in my life, I'm frightened to be Jewish


----------



## cantsin (Sep 9, 2019)

teqniq said:


> Good takedown of the weaponisation of antisemitism within the Labour party and more.
> 
> For the first time in my life, I'm frightened to be Jewish



such a strong /imprnt piece 

got to admit, last week felt like a bit of a turning point for me re: the whole AS / Labour issue - the mobs turning on Aditya Chakraborty, howling ' AS'  for his rebuttal of Danny Finkelsteins hit piece on Corbyn ( which was a straight ahread anti left piece, nothing to do with AS, from a wealthy, right wing Lord ) then the same when Dianne Abbot pointed out Luciana Berger's embarrassing hypocrisy re : joining the Lib Dems - cynical, white, middle class liberals , some jewish, many not, screaming ' racist' at these two... just grotesque, and despite big reservations about him /his conduct , hard not to recall Chris Williamson's words at the Sheffield Momentum meet that got him suspended ( expelled this week ? ) about 'giving too much ground ' , and where it leads


----------



## Badgers (Sep 9, 2019)

Not Labour but I was just speaking to the MOFA in Sweden and they have had a resignation due in part to AS 

Swedish Foreign Minister Margot Wallstrom to resign - Reuters

Sweden’s Foreign Minister Margot Wallström resigns


----------



## Spandex (Sep 29, 2019)

With a general election likely in the next couple of months, does anyone have any idea when the EHRC is due to report on it's investigation into Labour and anti-Semitism?

As I see it there's three possible outcomes of the report:

It's scathing of the Labour party and very damaging (possible).

It's an evenly balanced report recognising pros and cons, which Corbyn's political enemies will cherry pick to make him look as bad as possible, while Corbyn tries to point to some good bits (likely).

It largely exonerates the Labour party (unlikely).

The timing could be very inconvenient for Labour.


----------



## killer b (Sep 29, 2019)

Fairly sure they wouldn't be able to report during the campaign due to purdah rules, so if it's not out in the next few weeks it's not out until after the election.


----------



## belboid (Sep 29, 2019)

killer b said:


> Fairly sure they wouldn't be able to report during the campaign due to purdah rules, so if it's not out in the next few weeks it's not out until after the election.


are the EHRC civil servants?  they're the only ones really covered by purdah


----------



## Raheem (Sep 29, 2019)

belboid said:


> are the EHRC civil servants?  they're the only ones really covered by purdah


No, it goes wider. Council employees, for instance.


----------



## ferrelhadley (Sep 29, 2019)

teqniq said:


> Good takedown of the weaponisation of antisemitism within the Labour party and more.
> 
> For the first time in my life, I'm frightened to be Jewish





> We live in a time when racism is being normalized, when Nazis parade in the streets in Europe and America; Jew baiters like Hungary's Orban are treated as respectable players on the international scene, “white nationalist” propagandist Steve Bannon can openly coordinate scare-mongering tactics with Boris Johnson in London at the same time as in Pittsburg, murderers deluded by white nationalist propaganda are literally mowing Jews down with automatic weapons. How is it, then, that our political class has come to a consensus that the greatest threat to Britain's Jewish community is a lifelong anti-racist accused of not being assiduous enough in disciplining party members who make offensive comments on the internet?



9 January 2015 a group of Islamists targeted a Jewish supermarket killing four injuring 11. This attack, much closer than Bannon or Pittsburg seems to not worry the author. 


> There is no conceivable scenario in which admirers of the ideas of Rosa Luxemberg or Leon Trotsky are going to start shooting up synagogues, or Momentum (an organization three of whose four co-founders were Jewish) is going to make anyone wear yellow stars.


On 18 July 1994 a suicide bomber killed 85 people at the Jewish Community Center in Buenos Aires, Argentina. Hezbollah are strongly implicated in this attack. In 2009 Jeremy Corbyn described Hezbollah as his friends. 

Had Jeremy Corbyn called the Orange Order or the British National Party his friends, condemnation would have been swift and severe from the left. If Islamist murder and antisemitism is not every bit as repugnant to people as the UVF's anti Catholic murder or the violence of Combat 18 then I suspect people may need to reflect a little deeper on why bigoted violence of all kinds should be beyond the pale.


----------



## Spandex (Sep 29, 2019)

belboid said:


> are the EHRC civil servants?  they're the only ones really covered by purdah


The EHRC is a 'statutory non-departmental public body', who are covered by purdah (link), so killer b is absolutely right. If the EHRC haven't issued their report on Labour before the election period starts - whenever that ends up being - it should after the election.

I'm just thinking it's probably due soon - the end of July was the deadline for submissions. But then I dont know how long they'll have to spend trawling through evidence, deciding what they think and writing the thing.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 10, 2019)

Williamson fails, struck down by unseen hands. 

Now off to the Beeley and assorted anti-semites, freaks and now woefully out of their depth get together in derry.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Oct 10, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> Williamson fails, struck down by unseen hands.
> 
> Now off to the Beeley and assorted anti-semites, freaks and now woefully out of their depth get together in derry.


The Williamson Galloway double act is going to be fucking irritating


----------



## Dogsauce (Oct 17, 2019)

Late to the party, Louise Ellman quits over anti-Semitism. Wonder if there was any particular trigger or whether it’s designed to harm Corbyn at a crucial moment (though likely to get lost in the noise of Brexit)

MP Louise Ellman quits Labour Party

Unsurprisingly the fair and balanced BBC prints twitter reactions from a Lib Dem and two right-wing Labour MPs.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Oct 17, 2019)

Dogsauce said:


> Late to the party, Louise Ellman quits over anti-Semitism. Wonder if there was any particular trigger or whether it’s designed to harm Corbyn at a crucial moment (though likely to get lost in the noise of Brexit)
> 
> MP Louise Ellman quits Labour Party
> 
> Unsurprisingly the fair and balanced BBC prints twitter reactions from a Lib Dem and two right-wing Labour MPs.


Her local party was going to debate her future on the day of the start of Yom Kippur...


----------



## 19sixtysix (Oct 17, 2019)

sleaterkinney said:


> Her local party was going to debate her future on the day of the start of Yom Kippur...



Knowing labour party rules often times a debate/motion has to happen in one meeting or it'll be the next year.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 17, 2019)

sleaterkinney said:


> Her local party was going to debate her future on the day of the start of Yom Kippur...


Can't see any relevance, tbh.
My memory of GCs/AMMs from various CLPs is that the dates were published at the start of the year; can't see why they'd necessarily take note of supernatural festivals?


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Oct 17, 2019)

“She is the Chair of the All-Party Britain-Israel Parliamentary Group and of Labour Friends of Israel” 

Good riddance to another racist then.


----------



## belboid (Oct 17, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Can't see any relevance, tbh.
> My memory of GCs/AMMs from various CLPs is that the dates were published at the start of the year; can't see why they'd necessarily take note of supernatural festivals?


Quite, the dates would have been in January, and it was due at this meeting because that is when trigger ballots are being held nationwide. To try to pretend there is any ulterior motive is utterly disingenuous.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 17, 2019)

Jeff Robinson said:


> “She is the Chair of the All-Party Britain-Israel Parliamentary Group and of Labour Friends of Israel”
> 
> Good riddance to another racist then.


lfi will have to find a new chair


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 17, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Can't see any relevance, tbh.
> My memory of GCs/AMMs from various CLPs is that the dates were published at the start of the year; can't see why they'd necessarily take note of supernatural festivals?


if the dates were published at the start of the year then people with concerns about religious festivals could have raised them months ago. should have raised them months ago. if they didn't then it's really shit of them to complain after the fact when through their own inactivity it's their own stupid fault the meeting was held on that date.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 17, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> if the dates were published at the start of the year then people with concerns about religious festivals could have raised them months ago. should have raised them months ago. if they didn't then it's really shit of them to complain after the fact when through their own inactivity it's their own stupid fault the meeting was held on that date.


Was always my understanding that effective secretarying of CLPs required the GC/AMM dates published for the coming year for those sort of reasons.


----------



## killer b (Oct 17, 2019)

belboid said:


> Quite, the dates would have been in January, and it was due at this meeting because that is when trigger ballots are being held nationwide. To try to pretend there is any ulterior motive is utterly disingenuous.


I think it was just being talked about as (further) evidence of LP blindness to cultural sensitivities around jewish holidays etc, not that there was some ulterior motive to it tbf. What ulterior motive could there be?


----------



## brogdale (Oct 17, 2019)

killer b said:


> I think it was just being talked about as (further) evidence of LP blindness to cultural sensitivities around jewish holidays etc, not that there was some ulterior motive to it tbf. What ulterior motive could there be?


Trouble is, there can't be that many weeks in the year without one sort of supernatural festival date. Privileging one supernatural belief system over others seems a slippery slope.


----------



## killer b (Oct 17, 2019)

Maybe if you have a jewish MP and are in the middle of a lengthy poisonous row about antisemitism it's a good idea to avoid these kinds of charges being levelled at you is all. It's very easy to check a calendar.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 17, 2019)

killer b said:


> Maybe if you have a jewish MP and are in the middle of a lengthy poisonous row about antisemitism it's a good idea to avoid these kinds of charges being levelled at you is all. It's very easy to check a calendar.


Especially easy if you have a staffed office to do that sort of stuff for you. Seems like she didn't object to the dates when published?


----------



## killer b (Oct 17, 2019)

So what?


----------



## brogdale (Oct 17, 2019)

killer b said:


> So what?


Yep, that's what I thought about the sleaterkinney post.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 17, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Trouble is, there can't be that many weeks in the year without one sort of supernatural festival date. Privileging one supernatural belief system over others seems a slippery slope.


there are a few days in the year which would stand out. christmas. easter. yom kippur. passover. eid. sad to say i don't suppose they'd mark the three days when crowley received the books of the law from aiwass: but i am surprised that this mp didn't point out that perhaps something on yom kippur wouldn't a good idea in advance.


----------



## killer b (Oct 17, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Yep, that's what I thought about the sleaterkinney post.


Labour Left members in Ellman's seat know that she is jewish, and know that she will use whatever weapons are at her disposal to attack them and the Labour leadership - so why hand her one? Of course she sat on it until it could cause the most damage.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 17, 2019)

killer b said:


> Labour Left members in Ellman's seat know that she is jewish, and know that she will use whatever weapons are at her disposal to attack them and the Labour leadership - so why hand her one? Of course she sat on it until it could cause the most damage.


More importantly, the membership knew she wasn't Labour, as she's just proved.


----------



## kebabking (Oct 17, 2019)

brogdale said:


> More importantly, the membership knew she wasn't Labour, as she's just proved.



I find it difficult to understand how she's _not Labour, _given that she's been a member for 50 years - she may not be _your particular _cup of Labour tea, but the idea that she's not Labour is just utter cock.

Corbyn wasn't in the fashionable - or electorally successful - bit of Labour for 25 years, he was just a crank on the outside edge of the party, but even when Blair was winning majorities of 170+, Corbyn was still _Labour.
_
I'm rather reminded of the creep Aaron Banks telling people like Hammond, Soames, Clarke and Stewart that they were never conservatives - deranged howlings of a Fuckwit.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 17, 2019)

kebabking said:


> I find it difficult to understand how she's _not Labour, _given that she's been a member for 50 years - she may not be _your particular _cup of Labour tea, but the idea that she's not Labour is just utter cock.


Had she not left the party, that claim could have been put to the test of a democratic vote amongst her CLP's members. That's how a democratic socialist party works, no?
But she chose to leave and attempt to cause as much damage as possible in doing so.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Oct 17, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Had she not left the party, that claim could have been put to the test of a democratic vote amongst her CLP's members. That's how a democratic socialist party works, no?
> But she chose to leave and attempt to cause as much damage as possible in doing so.



All aboard the lib dem gravy train!


----------



## belboid (Oct 17, 2019)

killer b said:


> I think it was just being talked about as (further) evidence of LP blindness to cultural sensitivities around jewish holidays etc, not that there was some ulterior motive to it tbf. What ulterior motive could there be?


That's bollocks though.   Ellman could have objected to the date when it was announced, she didn't.  No one did.  It is nothing to do with 'blindness to cultural sensitivities' it's just the calendar.  Anyone making that argument is a disingenuous fuckwit.


----------



## killer b (Oct 17, 2019)

belboid said:


> That's bollocks though.   Ellman could have objected to the date when it was announced, she didn't.  No one did.  It is nothing to do with 'blindness to cultural sensitivities' it's just the calendar.  Anyone making that argument is a disingenuous fuckwit.


but really, so what?


killer b said:


> Maybe if you have a jewish MP and are in the middle of a lengthy poisonous row about antisemitism it's a good idea to avoid these kinds of charges being levelled at you is all. It's very easy to check a calendar.


----------



## belboid (Oct 17, 2019)

So you'd have let Ellman remain an MP.  Because of the date.


----------



## killer b (Oct 17, 2019)

or had the contentious meeting on a different date, after checking the calendar


----------



## brogdale (Oct 17, 2019)

killer b said:


> or had the contentious meeting on a different date, after checking the calendar


GCs/AMMs aren't really contentious, though, are they?
All part of the democracy of the party.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Oct 17, 2019)

brogdale said:


> GCs/AMMs aren't really contentious, though, are they?
> All part of the democracy of the party.


It was a no confidence motion, couldn't they have called it on a different date?.

Dame Louise Ellman: Labour group's Yom Kippur action condemned


----------



## belboid (Oct 17, 2019)

killer b said:


> or had the contentious meeting on a different date, after checking the calendar


Not actually possible, for the reasons I said before.   It is a national decision about the time period for trigger ballots (basically, October) and the local party would have announced the date for the October meeting ten months previously. You can't just change it at the last minute, it's against the rules. And any attempt to do so would probably be seen as an attempt at fixing it anyway.

That was the only time it could be done.

hmm, SK's link implies it wasn't a trigger ballot, although this is the time for them. Either way, its jsut the normal meeting date, and this is when it would have to be done in order to have time to  select a new MP.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Oct 17, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Yep, that's what I thought about the sleaterkinney post.


Indeed.


----------



## killer b (Oct 17, 2019)

It was a worthless and non-binding motion of no confidence, not a trigger ballot. they could have had one at the next meeting instead if they really wanted to.


----------



## belboid (Oct 17, 2019)

killer b said:


> It was a worthless and non-binding motion of no confidence, not a trigger ballot. they could have had one at the next meeting instead if they really wanted to.


Too late to select a new MP tho, which is the entire point. And it's got rid of the shit, so job done.


----------



## killer b (Oct 17, 2019)

jesus


----------



## killer b (Oct 17, 2019)

_it's just fine everyone thinks we're massive racists, as long as we've won this particular factional fight._


----------



## belboid (Oct 17, 2019)

_it's just fine if we completely misrepresent reality to push a right-wing agenda as long as we find a couple of fools to agree with us_


----------



## belboid (Oct 17, 2019)

Actually, the no confidence motion had been withdrawn to clear the way for a trigger ballot.  So this heinous motion wasn't actually happening at all.

You've been had.


----------



## killer b (Oct 17, 2019)

belboid said:


> Actually, the no confidence motion had been withdrawn to clear the way for a trigger ballot.  So this heinous motion wasn't actually happening at all.
> 
> You've been had.


Maybe it was, but the specific complaint was about the tabling of the no confidence motion, so whether it was withdrawn or not is moot. It was still tabled, and whoever tabled it could have checked the calendar.


----------



## belboid (Oct 17, 2019)

killer b said:


> Maybe it was, but the specific complaint was about the tabling of the no confidence motion, so whether it was withdrawn or not is moot. It was still tabled, and whoever tabled it could have checked the calendar.


oh for gods sake.  Risible. They do what you want, but it still isn't good enough.  Almost as if they cant win and the date of the meeting is entirely irrelevant. 

A shit quits before she gets sacked, so tries any bullshit tactics to cover herself. More fool you for falling for it.


----------



## treelover (Oct 17, 2019)

SWP style/sect politics entering the L/P.


----------



## killer b (Oct 17, 2019)

belboid said:


> They do what you want


was this before or after it was all over the national press?


----------



## brogdale (Oct 17, 2019)

treelover said:


> SWP style/sect politics entering the L/P.


Socialists, I think.


----------



## killer b (Oct 17, 2019)

treelover said:


> SWP style/sect politics entering the L/P.


nothing new here tbf


----------



## belboid (Oct 17, 2019)

killer b said:


> was this before or after it was all over the national press?


I hadn't seen it mentioned in the press until today, so that'd be before.


----------



## killer b (Oct 17, 2019)

belboid said:


> I hadn't seen it mentioned in the press until today, so that'd be before.


this was on the third of october Dame Louise Ellman: Labour group's Yom Kippur action condemned


----------



## killer b (Oct 17, 2019)

so that'd be after


----------



## belboid (Oct 17, 2019)

killer b said:


> so that'd be after


fair enough. But so what? Do you really think anyone gives a shit about it being Yom Kippur except those who were already opposed to the motion for other reasons? It's utter nonsense that you are falling for.


----------



## teqniq (Oct 17, 2019)

Funny how it's only just appeared as a front page story on the BBC and Graun pages today. Personally I feel the whole antisemitimsm thing with the Labour party has been massively over-egged.


----------



## killer b (Oct 17, 2019)

I'm totally fine with Ellman being deselected. All I'm saying on this thread is the people wanting to do that could have done so very easily without giving her this particular stick to beat them with, by checking the calendar first. I'm not falling for anything.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 17, 2019)

killer b said:


> I'm totally fine with Ellman being deselected. All I'm saying on this thread is the people wanting to do that could have done so very easily without giving her this particular stick to beat them with, by checking the calendar first. I'm not falling for anything.


Has Ellman actually mentioned the significance of the date?


----------



## killer b (Oct 17, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Has Ellman actually mentioned the significance of the date?


according to the link above, _Dame Louise said the timing was "particularly insidious"._


----------



## cantsin (Oct 17, 2019)

the timing, as with multiple other attempts at trigger ballots all over the country, is inextricably linked to post conference / pre general election timeframe - any attempt to imply it's anything else is just straight up bollocks, obvs


----------



## Proper Tidy (Oct 17, 2019)

I dunno why what killer b is saying is provoking controversy. It might be entirely innocuous, it might be just the way cards have fallen with conference/GE. What's it fucking matter. Clearly having debate on deselection of a jewish MP on yom kippur, the holiest day in judaism, is fucking stupid at any time. When it is coming from the labour left which a) is being attacked as antisemites for factional reasons and b) also does have antisemites in its ranks then it's fucking incredibly stupid. Fucks sake.


----------



## belboid (Oct 17, 2019)

Of course its entirely innocuous.  The BBC piece on her quitting doesn't even bother mentioning it, it's that irrelevant.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 17, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> I dunno why what killer b is saying is provoking controversy. It might be entirely innocuous, it might be just the way cards have fallen with conference/GE. What's it fucking matter. Clearly having debate on deselection of a jewish MP on yom kippur, the holiest day in judaism, is fucking stupid at any time. When it is coming from the labour left which a) is being attacked as antisemites for factional reasons and b) also does have antisemites in its ranks then it's fucking incredibly stupid. Fucks sake.


I get what you're saying...but...the CLP secretary would have set meeting dates long ago (probably last December?) and could not possibly know what particular motions members may raise at any particular meeting. Assuming that Ellman did not object to the date when it was calendarised, I can't see what the issue is. Surely you're not saying that members can't propose confidence motions because the meeting happens to be one that the sitting Mp would never have attended for supernatural belief reasons?


----------



## killer b (Oct 17, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Surely you're not saying that members can't propose confidence motions because the meeting happens to be one that the sitting Mp would never have attended for supernatural belief reasons?


I'm saying when considering whether they should propose a pointless confidence motion, members should do a few basic checks - including the fucking calendar - to make sure they aren't actually handing the person they're proposing the no confidence motion in a massive shitty stick to beat them with.


----------



## belboid (Oct 17, 2019)

Such a massive stick the BBC didn't even notice it.

Should have left the motion until it was too late to deselect her, obvs.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 17, 2019)

killer b said:


> I'm saying when considering whether they should propose a pointless confidence motion, members should do a few basic checks - including the fucking calendar - to make sure they aren't actually handing the person they're proposing the no confidence motion in a massive shitty stick to beat them with.


Perhaps they knew she would do that whatever the date, as was the case. Wasn't the motion precipitated by her public slagging of Corbyn in the first place?


----------



## killer b (Oct 17, 2019)

belboid said:


> Such a massive stick the BBC didn't even notice it.
> 
> Should have left the motion until it was too late to deselect her, obvs.


this is a bbc story?


killer b said:


> this was on the third of october Dame Louise Ellman: Labour group's Yom Kippur action condemned


----------



## belboid (Oct 17, 2019)

but they dont mention it today, when she has quit.


----------



## killer b (Oct 17, 2019)

Every other news outlet has, should you care to google.

This is really boring. All I'm saying - and it isn't really that difficult or controversial - is that this particular related story could easily have been avoided with a little thought and calendar checking. That's all.


----------



## belboid (Oct 17, 2019)

killer b said:


> Every other news outlet has, should you care to google.


No they dont. Neither the guardian or the mirror (the most important sites for labour party voters) mention it at all. Nor do the Times or politicshome, which are the first sites brought up when googling 'Louise Ellman.' Plenty of other comments re anti-semitism, but not that. Clearly they dont see it as a massive stick to beat Labour up with, for being massively racist.



> This is really boring. All I'm saying - and it isn't really that difficult or controversial - is that this particular related story could easily have been avoided with a little thought and calendar checking. That's all.


And all I'm saying is you're wrong, and you're failing to understand the Labour Party calendar. Meeting dates set long in advance, election imminent. Now is the obvious time to bring any such motion.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Oct 17, 2019)

belboid said:


> Of course its entirely innocuous.  The BBC piece on her quitting doesn't even bother mentioning it, it's that irrelevant.


It doesn't matter whether it is innocuous or not though does it


----------



## killer b (Oct 17, 2019)

The obvious time to propose a non-binding motion that only serves to give your enemies things to shriek about is 'never'


----------



## brogdale (Oct 17, 2019)

killer b said:


> The obvious time to propose a non-binding motion that only serves to give your enemies things to shriek about is 'never'


Maybe the membership knew better? After all, she has now gone.


----------



## killer b (Oct 17, 2019)

At the cost of everyone thinking they're racists. I'm sure there's better ways of getting someone gone.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 17, 2019)

killer b said:


> At the cost of everyone thinking they're racists. I'm sure there's better ways of getting someone gone.


Perhaps that's where we differ? I've no idea if the proposer & seconder of the motion that was to be considered are antisemitic or, indeed, if 'everyone' thinks they are as a result of tabling the motion of no confidence.
What I do know is that Ellman has gone and, in doing so, has done her best to undermine her former  party.


----------



## killer b (Oct 17, 2019)

...Undermining which would have been less effective if her CLP had bothered to check the calendar before proposing a non-binding and totally worthless confidence motion on Yom Kippur


----------



## belboid (Oct 17, 2019)

killer b said:


> At the cost of everyone thinking they're racists. I'm sure there's better ways of getting someone gone.


'everyone'??  Come on, 99% of the population wont have even noticed it.  Even the political types. Because its irrelevant.  Which is why most significant papers haven't even mentioned it today.


----------



## belboid (Oct 17, 2019)

killer b said:


> The obvious time to propose a non-binding motion that only serves to give your enemies things to shriek about is 'never'


You don't actually care it was on Yom Kippur, you just think its a shit motion. Stop blathering about the date when you dont even really agree with yourself!


----------



## killer b (Oct 17, 2019)

I think it was a shit motion, and I think the shitness was compounded by the timing. 

_Everyone_ is not literally everyone. You know this.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 17, 2019)

killer b said:


> ...Undermining which would have been less effective if her CLP had bothered to check the calendar before proposing a non-binding and totally worthless confidence motion on Yom Kippur


There again, I think we disagree. Given her already expressed antipathy towards the LP leadership, I've no reason to suppose that Ellman would have left in any different manner if her opponents had tabled on a different date.


----------



## killer b (Oct 17, 2019)

But the fact that she's left now, a few weeks after the news story about the yom kippur no-confidence gives her reasons for leaving more weight - it makes her more credible.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 17, 2019)

killer b said:


> But the fact that she's left now, a few weeks after the news story about the yom kippur no-confidence gives her reasons for leaving more weight - it makes her more credible.


If i were a socialist member of her CLP, I'd be perfectly happy for her to be as 'credible' as she likes...now that she's gone and is highly unlikely to stand successfully as an Independent.


----------



## belboid (Oct 17, 2019)

killer b said:


> I think it was a shit motion, and I think the shitness was compounded by the timing.
> 
> _Everyone_ is not literally everyone. You know this.


In this case, 'everyone' appears to be you and SK.  And you had forgotten about it until he reminded you.


----------



## CNT36 (Oct 19, 2019)

brogdale said:


> If i were a socialist member of her CLP, I'd be perfectly happy for her to be as 'credible' as she likes...now that she's gone and is highly unlikely to stand successfully as an Independent.


Because th


brogdale said:


> If i were a socialist member of her CLP, I'd be perfectly happy for her to be as 'credible' as she likes...now that she's gone and is highly unlikely to stand successfully as an Independent.


She'd of left in the same way with one less stone to throw. When it comes to an election and she's wheeled out that credibility may sway a few people. She can still do damage pissing in and her streams a little stronger now.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Oct 21, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Maybe the membership knew better? After all, she has now gone.


Maybe they meant it?.

Apparently Jo Bird is being introduced as a candidate, still a member of Labour despite joking about 'Jew process' earlier this year.


----------



## belboid (Oct 21, 2019)

sleaterkinney said:


> Apparently Jo Bird is being introduced as a candidate, still a member of Labour despite joking about 'Jew process' earlier this year.


The Jewish woman who was praising jewish jurisprudence?  How fucking outrageous!


----------



## Fedayn (Oct 21, 2019)

sleaterkinney said:


> Maybe they meant it?.
> 
> Apparently Jo Bird is being introduced as a candidate, still a member of Labour despite joking about 'Jew process' earlier this year.



Aye, Jewish woman, whom ran a progressive Co-op, Olive Co op, was very active against anti-semites in the Palestinian Solidarity campaign. .


----------



## killer b (Oct 21, 2019)

I'm no expert on Jewish humour, but there seems to be a rich seam of lawyer jokes among the ones I have seen over the years. Trying to dig in on a jewish woman cracking jokes about jewish lawyers is just giving fuel to the dicks who're claiming it's all a witch hunt.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 21, 2019)

killer b said:


> I think it was a shit motion, and I think the shitness was compounded by the timing.
> 
> _Everyone_ is not literally everyone. You know this.


At last you just admit you dont like the motion.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 21, 2019)

I just think its another right wing shit kicked into touch.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Oct 21, 2019)

killer b said:


> I'm no expert on Jewish humour, but there seems to be a rich seam of lawyer jokes among the ones I have seen over the years. Trying to dig in on a jewish woman cracking jokes about jewish lawyers is just giving fuel to the dicks who're claiming it's all a witch hunt.


 Its a strange place for this joke though, when talking about Jackie Walker and Marc Wadsworth. 

.”JVL is calling for disciplinary hearings to be paused until a due process has been established based on principles of natural justice. What I call Jew process.”


----------



## killer b (Oct 21, 2019)

Well, I dunno - I know that when I'm a bit nervous - for example, when making a speech in front of a load of people - I often make awkward and self deprecating jokes. It's pretty normal. Either way I don't think it's really for me to police when a jew makes jokes about jews.


----------



## Cloo (Nov 3, 2019)

So I replied to a Twitter mention of today's Telegraph headline of 'Jews will leave if Corbyn elected' (or words to that effect) which is just James Cleverley giving it the old 'My Jewish friends said...' line. I asked honestly of some people replying to agree that a Labour gov would be terrible for Jewish people what they felt would be so bad that it would merit Jews uprooting their entire lives in this country.

One person replied that he thought they would/could (I'm not sure which he meant) do the following:
- Remove security funding to Jewish schools - this seems unlikely to me, there'd be a huge outcry and there couldn't be much justification as it can't be costing all that much money (we pay at least in part towards security at son's Jewish school)
- Make kosher slaugher illegal (ie through demanding animals are stunned beforehand) -I guess this one could happen, although the way I see it people who support this are coming entirely from an animal rights perspective, not a 'Haha, let's fuck up the Jews' one
- Reduce holocaust education in schools - can't see why they'd do this, it would make them look really bad
- End Holocaust Memorial Day - ditto,sounds like bullshit. Not that I am the biggest fan of HMD in the UK anyway.

Anyone know why people think Labour might do this? Have any of these been suggested by someone who actually has an influence on mainstream party policy?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Nov 3, 2019)

Cloo said:


> So I replied to a Twitter mention of today's Telegraph headline of 'Jews will leave if Corbyn elected' (or words to that effect) which is just James Cleverley giving it the old 'My Jewish friends said...' line. I asked honestly of some people replying to agree that a Labour gov would be terrible for Jewish people what they felt would be so bad that it would merit Jews uprooting their entire lives in this country.
> 
> One person replied that he thought they would/could (I'm not sure which he meant) do the following:
> - Remove security funding to Jewish schools - this seems unlikely to me, there'd be a huge outcry and there couldn't be much justification as it can't be costing all that much money (we pay at least in part towards security at son's Jewish school)
> ...


It sounds like fantasy propaganda shit. I suppose some people might believe it honestly if they have seen it repeated on Facebook groups etc. But I've also noticed an uptick of Twitter accounts which spam posts about Labour and particularly Corbyn with "I suppose he's great if you're not Jewish" type comments.


----------



## killer b (Nov 6, 2019)

Williamson has been dropped as a candidate for the election, thank fuck.


----------



## rekil (Nov 7, 2019)

I had a feeling this 100% loonparty fantasy would be whirring away in his little head.



Williamson consoled by his disgusting mate Henningsen, a promoter of holocaust denial and every other branch of conspiraloonery.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Nov 8, 2019)

Just shortlisted to be the Labour candidate for Birmingham Hall Green, cllr Majid Mahmood.

Mahmood had referred to ‘chosen people’ and said it was a shame a plane carrying Israelis ‘didn’t blow up mid air’. 

Defence solicitor fined £25k over anti-Semitic Facebook 'hatred'


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 8, 2019)

Cloo said:


> So I replied to a Twitter mention of today's Telegraph headline of 'Jews will leave if Corbyn elected' (or words to that effect) which is just James Cleverley giving it the old 'My Jewish friends said...' line. I asked honestly of some people replying to agree that a Labour gov would be terrible for Jewish people what they felt would be so bad that it would merit Jews uprooting their entire lives in this country.
> 
> One person replied that he thought they would/could (I'm not sure which he meant) do the following:
> - Remove security funding to Jewish schools - this seems unlikely to me, there'd be a huge outcry and there couldn't be much justification as it can't be costing all that much money (we pay at least in part towards security at son's Jewish school)
> ...



It's desperate made up stuff. It's in people's heads and it's like them saying 'He is going to make being Jewish illegal' it's propaganda stoked by the MSM with all the 'existential threat' stuff.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 8, 2019)

sleaterkinney said:


> Just shortlisted to be the Labour candidate for Birmingham Hall Green, cllr Majid Mahmood.
> 
> Mahmood had referred to ‘chosen people’ and said it was a shame a plane carrying Israelis ‘didn’t blow up mid air’.
> 
> Defence solicitor fined £25k over anti-Semitic Facebook 'hatred'


Tell me, how sure are you that this MM in Hertfordshire is the same MM as the one in brum?

And how sure are you that you're not spreading false red-baiting shit on a particularly dodgy basis.


----------



## killer b (Nov 8, 2019)

sleaterkinney said:


> Just shortlisted to be the Labour candidate for Birmingham Hall Green, cllr Majid Mahmood.
> 
> Mahmood had referred to ‘chosen people’ and said it was a shame a plane carrying Israelis ‘didn’t blow up mid air’.
> 
> Defence solicitor fined £25k over anti-Semitic Facebook 'hatred'


Is this the same guy? The possible Labour candidate has been a Labour councillor for years, but there's no mention of the antisemitic guy being a Labour councillor in the 2017 story. There's plenty of other Majid Mahmoods working as solicitors too.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 8, 2019)

It's not, as even a minutes checking rather than gleeful sharing would have shown. Interesting to see where this false claim started from.


----------



## killer b (Nov 8, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> It's not, as even a minutes checking rather than gleeful sharing would have shown. Interesting to see where this false claim started from.


It's being shared widely on twitter. haven't seen anyone question it yet.


----------



## killer b (Nov 8, 2019)

oh actually I have seen people questioning it now. Freedland has fucked it here huh?


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 8, 2019)

Freedland.

One: Majid Mahmood - The Law Society

Two: Majid Mahmood - The Law Society


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 8, 2019)

> Simon @simonk_133
> Erm this isn't the same guy
> https://solicitors.lawsociety.org.uk/person/130386/majid-mahmood…
> 
> https://solicitors.lawsociety.org.uk/person/64882/majid-mahmood


----------



## killer b (Nov 8, 2019)

Jonathan Freedland is a massive racist and a rubbish journalist huh. Who knew.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Nov 8, 2019)

killer b said:


> It's being shared widely on twitter. haven't seen anyone question it yet.


Which is where I got it from, and it looks like it's untrue.


----------



## killer b (Nov 8, 2019)

sleaterkinney said:


> Which is where I got it from, and it looks like it's untrue.


don't you think to check these things first? It took me all of 30 seconds googling to find out it was dodgy as fuck.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 8, 2019)

sleaterkinney said:


> Which is where I got it from, and it looks like it's untrue.


Oh well, not your fault!


----------



## sleaterkinney (Nov 8, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> Oh well, not your fault!


Thanks!.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 8, 2019)

The great thing is that in the tweet in which he announced this he claims it's an example of the the NEC - i.e the party leadership -  _failing to 'do due diligence'. _What a fucking racist cock.


----------



## JimW (Nov 8, 2019)

It's almost like they don't give a fuck about anti-Semitism just want to get the hit in!


----------



## killer b (Nov 8, 2019)

He's literally just thought _this guy has a muslim name, let's google him... oh my god!

_


----------



## belboid (Nov 8, 2019)

Freedland's just pulled it from his twitter


----------



## belboid (Nov 8, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> The great thing is that in the tweet in which he announced this he claims it's an example of the the NEC - i.e the party leadership -  _failing to 'do due diligence'. _What a fucking racist cock.


I was just making that point to him as the fucker deleted the post!


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 8, 2019)

I wonder how long until people google his stupid name and list all the people up to no good under it as him. After doing _due diligence_ of course.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 8, 2019)

One little fuck up that says so so much.


----------



## killer b (Nov 8, 2019)

this retweet is now second from the top on his twitter, aptly


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 8, 2019)

He's now blamed labour  - trying to make it look like they were the confused ones. Shameless. The earlier reports _were you_ you fuck. And the confusion was yours you rancid dog.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 8, 2019)

Going to share that sleater?


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Nov 8, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> He's now blamed labour  - trying to make it look like they were the confused ones. Shameless. The earlier reports _were you_ you fuck.




Still leaves the suggestion that the other one is somehow connected to the Labour party too.


----------



## killer b (Nov 8, 2019)

If I were freedland I'd be praying Mahmood gets the nomination now. Not being selected for a safe seat because you've been libelled by a high profile columnist must be good for a few extra thousand.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 8, 2019)

Did anyone actually see/shot this in the guardian live feed btw?


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 8, 2019)

Comrade in arms of journalistic integrity krinshan guru-murthy retweeted it. Or maybe that was just private school then oxbridge then running the news solidarity.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 8, 2019)

Yep, it was def labour not him:


----------



## belboid (Nov 8, 2019)

he has at least apologised properly


----------



## imposs1904 (Nov 8, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> Yep, it was def labour not him:




What a cunt.


----------



## killer b (Nov 8, 2019)

Guardian live feed here:


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 8, 2019)

Here's another example of the Freedland style of apology:

Jonathan Freedland keeps digging—how low will he go? - Norman G. Finkelstein


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 8, 2019)

**some odd things going on here**


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 8, 2019)

killer b said:


> Guardian live feed here:
> 
> View attachment 189382


And their similarly weaselish  response as Freedland. Pathetic. No mention of the content of the false accusation, his role in their shared agenda, their own YES! ANOTHER ONE! reaction.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 8, 2019)

I hope this fella sues the shit out of all involved


----------



## rekil (Nov 8, 2019)

JimW said:


> It's almost like they don't give a fuck about anti-Semitism just want to get the hit in!


It just serves to embolden loons and make them feel vindicated as well. 'There's no antisemitism. It's all a witchhunt'.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 8, 2019)

copliker said:


> It just serves to embolden loons and make them feel vindicated as well. 'There's no antisemitism. It's all a witchhunt'.


Yep - this will reinforce the loons. Already seen it happening - but, that is never going to change. This at least allows us to highlight that they and Freedland etc are two sides of the same shitty coin whilst the iron is temp hot.


----------



## rekil (Nov 8, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> Yep - this will reinforce the loons. Already seen it happening - but, that is never going to change. This at least allows us to highlight that they and Freedland etc are two sides of the same shitty coin whilst the iron is temp hot.


I suppose I'm thinking of whether shit like Freedland's in conjunction with other factors can help to push young or relatively normal people loonward or at least result in an increase in tolerance. The whole question of how the loonosphere reproduces itself is potentially interesting.


----------



## teqniq (Nov 9, 2019)

After yesterday's fuckup Freedland goes on the offensive:

Many Jews want Boris Johnson out. But how can we vote for Jeremy Corbyn? | Jonathan Freedland


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 9, 2019)

> I understand that to many, all this will sound overwrought. I’m afraid that Jewish history has made us that way, prone to imagining the worst. We look at our usually sparse family trees and we can pick out the pessimists, those who panicked and got out. It was they who left their mark on us. You see, the optimists, those who assumed things would work out for the best, they never made it out in time.



Freedland here employing the JRM school of common sense.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 9, 2019)

That's what he calls an apology?


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 9, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> Freedland here employing the JRM school of common sense.


This from him was also jazzz's justification for his anti-semitic conspiracy theories - the conspiracy theorists got out in time.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 9, 2019)

Ammo is not in short supply...


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 9, 2019)

Alex Wickham, guido's servant boy.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 9, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> Alex Wickham, guido's servant boy.


Indeed; and sat on for many months...but...the silly (pissed up?) fuckers only have themselves to blame.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 9, 2019)

Christ. Obviously doing it anyway is grim but how thick would you have to be to do it in presence of a tory ex guido staffer.

As aside, is Connor McGinn the one who's dad is a sinn fein councillor?


----------



## agricola (Nov 9, 2019)

Things must be desperate if they have gotten as far down the list as Conor McGinn.


----------



## teqniq (Nov 9, 2019)

Interesting:


----------



## ska invita (Nov 9, 2019)

This one seemed unfair no?
Labour candidate steps down after comparing Israel to 'abusive adult'


----------



## redsquirrel (Nov 9, 2019)

teqniq said:


> After yesterday's fuckup Freedland goes on the offensive:
> 
> Many Jews want Boris Johnson out. But how can we vote for Jeremy Corbyn? | Jonathan Freedland


Notice that piece not open for comments. What a weasely prick, he doesn't even address yesterdays fuck up.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Nov 9, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Ammo is not in short supply...
> 
> View attachment 189459


Other people on the bus apparently now saying this never happened. Eg



(Somehow Carden is made out to still be at fault though for not denying in the right way or something.)


----------



## brogdale (Nov 9, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Other people on the bus apparently now saying this never happened.


I think we can see why they might.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 9, 2019)

Even Dan Hodges calls bs.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 9, 2019)

Oh. 

Shit.


----------



## agricola (Nov 9, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> Even Dan Hodges calls bs.



Wait, does that mean that its true?


----------



## binka (Nov 9, 2019)

Since it repeatedly happened and Wickham was sat right behind them then I'm sure he had plenty of time to get his phone out and record it, you know like a proper journalist would


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 9, 2019)

The initial Carden response quoted in Wickham's BuzzFeed piece is weak as fuck though, not a denial - but then this is what Wickham has reported not from horses mouth. If no substance at all then has to be legal action


----------



## brogdale (Nov 9, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> The initial Carden response quoted in Wickham's BuzzFeed piece is weak as fuck though, not a denial - but then this is what Wickham has reported not from horses mouth. If no substance at all then has to be legal action





> This was a coach full of journalists and MPs. If anyone genuinely believed any antisemitic behaviour had taken place, they would’ve had a moral responsibility to report it immediately. Yet this allegation is only made now when a general election is imminent. I stand by my record as an antiracist campaigner. I would never be part of any behaviour that undermines my commitment to fighting racism in all its forms


As you say, not the most trenchant denial at all.
How fucking dumb to lark around, pissed-up on a bus with journos on it.


----------



## killer b (Nov 9, 2019)

but he says he didn't do it?


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 9, 2019)

New to me that MPs and hacks all get jolly days out to get pissed at the races too, what the fuck. Is this paid from public money? Dunno why I'm asking really, it must be


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 9, 2019)

killer b said:


> but he says he didn't do it?


Well in the wickham piece he (or his spokesman) doesn't really. His subsequent twitter denial is less wooly but not much, maybe he's just not great with words but something like 'this categorically didn't happen and I am speaking to my legal representative' would be more satisfactory


----------



## brogdale (Nov 9, 2019)

killer b said:


> but he says he didn't do it?


quite possible that he believes that to be the truth; quite possible that it isn't


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 9, 2019)

His spokesperson was giving a generic politician defence they are trained to do if involved in anything where accusations of discrimination or prejudice are leveled. When the actual bloke has woken up he's straight up said it didn't happen.


Remember, the accusation isn't that he changed one word on the chorus but chanted JEWS JEWS JEWS. And none of the other journos noticed it, or if they did said it happened even when questioned on it by Hodges well prior to this - for some reason.


----------



## agricola (Nov 9, 2019)

brogdale said:


> quite possible that he believes that to be the truth; quite possible that it isn't



Its also possible Wickham will claim that he was singing it in German


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 9, 2019)

agricola said:


> Its also possible Wickham will claim that he was singing it in German


with hand movements and everything


----------



## brogdale (Nov 9, 2019)

agricola said:


> Its also possible Wickham will claim that he was singing it in German


Trouble being; the damage is already done, Corbyn's been questioned on the stump about and, given the current context, it's all too believable.


----------



## agricola (Nov 9, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Trouble being; the damage is already done, Corbyn's been questioned on the stump about and, given the current context, it's all too believable.



I'd agree it is believable if it had just happened, but the circumstances of that report are almost designed to make it unbelievable.


----------



## N_igma (Nov 9, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> As aside, is Connor McGinn the one who's dad is a sinn fein councillor?



His dad is a former Sinn Fein councillor and mayor of Newry. They’re good friends of my family and I know both personally.

 Conor hasn’t really done himself any favours though since he joined ranks with the Labour Party. He’s gone from Sinn Fein Youth activist to fan boy of the MoD which is quite shocking truth be told.


----------



## killer b (Nov 9, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Well in the wickham piece he (or his spokesman) doesn't really. His subsequent twitter denial is less wooly but not much, maybe he's just not great with words but something like 'this categorically didn't happen and I am speaking to my legal representative' would be more satisfactory


he's categorically denied it happening. he says it isn't true. this weird analysis that's been all over the internet this afternoon about his denial being some kind of non-denial is fucking ridiculous.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 9, 2019)

N_igma said:


> His dad is a former Sinn Fein councillor and mayor of Newry. They’re good friends of my family and I know both personally.
> 
> Conor hasn’t really done himself any favours though since he joined ranks with the Labour Party. He’s gone from Sinn Fein Youth activist to fan boy of the MoD which is quite shocking truth be told.


from ogra shinn fein to join the people who introduced criminalisation? that's quite a step


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 9, 2019)

killer b said:


> he's categorically denied it happening. he says it isn't true. this weird analysis that's been all over the internet this afternoon about his denial being some kind of non-denial is fucking ridiculous.


Well it comes from the initial response in the wickham piece being very clearly a non-denial, although as BA says this is probably just standard spokesperson stuff


----------



## Cid (Nov 9, 2019)

brogdale said:


> As you say, not the most trenchant denial at all.
> How fucking dumb to lark around, pissed-up on a bus with journos on it.



Yes but the bit not quoted says ‘I have been categorical in my denial about allegations relating to a coach trip some twenty months ago.’


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 9, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Well it comes from the initial response in the wickham piece being very clearly a non-denial, although as BA says this is probably just standard spokesperson stuff


And wickham primed/led people to it by highlighting the _intentional _bit in the spokespersons (probably 4am reply). Basically Wickham said_ look people this is what you can run with...go do it._


----------



## brogdale (Nov 9, 2019)

agricola said:


> I'd agree it is believable if it had just happened, but the circumstances of that report are almost designed to make it unbelievable.


I'd imagine that they've been storing up a number of such stories for use over the next few weeks.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 9, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> And wickham primed/led people to it by highlighting the _intentional _bit in the spokespersons (probably 4am reply). Basically Wickham said_ look people this is what you can run with...go do it._


...but the later categorical denial doesn't get the same attention. That's how the context is set. It's not labour doing that here. They literally are trapped.


----------



## agricola (Nov 9, 2019)

brogdale said:


> I'd imagine that they've been storing up a number of such stories for use over the next few weeks.



Which is another thing that helps the unbelievableness - for that to be true (that the story was sat on until needed), it would require noone else to have heard it, or surely they'd have mentioned it on the many occasions over the past 18 months when the issue has come up.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 9, 2019)

Plus Wickham being a lying agenda laden toad.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 9, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> Plus Wickham being a lying agenda laden toad.


Yep, that's what LP have left themselves open to.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 9, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Yep, that's what LP have left themselves open to.


People like this will be doing this whatever. They can't not be open to it. I've been trying to rattle the labour party cage on anti-semitism within its members and the wider periphery for sometime and specifically linking it to Corbyn supporters. If, they had taken every measure i could ever suggest to deal with it this still would have happened. No matter how well their house is in order. That's how it works. They will have everything thrown at them regardless of the record, regardless of accuracy, regardless of anything. And every single response they can come up with can only feed it. They can't close the gate on it, because it's not their gate.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 9, 2019)

I've got to say that your posts sound a bit odd here. You're saying that if this didn't happen and someone has been smeared by a right-wing campaign then it's pretty much tough shit because of the actions of other labour members? And the party not dealing with them adequately?


----------



## Cloo (Nov 9, 2019)

ska invita said:


> This one seemed unfair no?
> Labour candidate steps down after comparing Israel to 'abusive adult'


Yes,  gsv and I thought it was a totally fair comparison.  The whole 'we'll strike back 100 times harder' thing is not justifiable,  but it is perhaps understandable as the reaction to millennia of disenfranchisement and powerlessness for Jews.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 9, 2019)

Cloo said:


> Yes,  gsv and I thought it was a totally fair comparison.  The whole 'we'll strike back 100 times harder' thing is not justifiable,  but it is perhaps understandable as the reaction to millennia of disenfranchisement and powerlessness for Jews.


Ok, to continue the theme, the jews must must have abused people to incite their own prior abuse that they're now playing out. The cycle of abuse idea as related to geopolitics is ridiculous, the motif insulting. It explicitly makes jews = israel and flattens all history of anti-semitism into nothing. Just anti-semitism. No historical specificities or wider analysis. It's exactly what anti-semites do. And it's exactly what both sides in this shit do. The corbyn aligned labour/extra-party left much more explicitly and genuinely though.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 9, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> I've got to say that your posts sound a bit odd here. You're saying that if this didn't happen and someone has been smeared by a right-wing campaign then it's pretty much tough shit because of the actions of other labour members? And the party not dealing with them adequately?


No, not really tough shit...more like the traction of this sort of story is one consequence of Labour's inadequate response.
It's all too easy to imagine how the Guido outfit would construct the story...but it's also all too easy to imagine that it might have some basis in reality. That's the problem for Labour and why the damage is done.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 9, 2019)

brogdale said:


> No, not really tough shit...more like the traction of this sort of story is one consequence of Labour's inadequate response.
> It's all too easy to imagine how the Guido outfit would construct the story...but it's also all too easy to imagine that it might have some basis in reality. That's the problem for Labour and why the damage is done.


The story isn't about a cloud of reality though. Each story needs to be dealt with. Each allegation. But even dealing with them will be labour tries to deal with latest anti-antisemitism outbreak. Nothing will change that. 

And there's two things in what you say - what happened and the impact if what may have happened happens. The way that you let that happen is by not defending falsely accused people under the rubric of fuck, people think we're anti-semtic, we better agree, but showing how any way these claims come from. Nor saying yeah but.


----------



## andysays (Nov 10, 2019)

Another idiot trips up and falls on his sword

Clacton Labour candidate quits over 'Shylock' comment


> A Labour candidate has pulled out of the election race over using an anti-Semitic remark. Gideon Bull denied calling a Jewish councillor Shylock directly but admitted using the word during a private meeting. The Haringey councillor, who was standing in Clacton, Essex, said he did not realise the Shakespearean character was a Jew.





> "When she politely informed me that this saying was offensive, I immediately apologised and explained that I did not know that Shylock was Jewish and I would never have mentioned Shylock if I had known this. *I grew up in a working-class area in Ilford where this was a common saying, but I didn't know it was offensive*."


----------



## rekil (Nov 10, 2019)

Nice of the Morning Star to give Williamson a boost. 

‘I resigned from Labour to spend more time fighting for socialism’



> The Labour Party should stand aside in Derby North and allow its members to campaign for me.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 10, 2019)

And my 22 grand


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 10, 2019)

What an odd interview - "social imperialism', kids getting killed in buses OK in Syria if they're ARABS, not so good in Yemen. It's like he didn't do that 20 years of PFI and austerity and has now decided that he' a socialist.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 10, 2019)

He attacks momentum as being zionist. One of the two blocs  on letting labour be all it could be.

So utterly obsessed with jews.


----------



## rekil (Nov 10, 2019)

I think I read that it costs at least £30k to run for election. For tory/labour people running serious campaigns anyway. Would he have been able to retain access to Labour's data and tools? Or will he and his company of loons just be going door to random door banging on about the jews.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 10, 2019)

Get the _mexicans _to fund it.


----------



## rekil (Nov 10, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> Get the _mexicans _to fund it.


There is no shortage of mugs if his site is to be believed.


----------



## Libertad (Nov 10, 2019)

copliker said:


> I think I read that it costs at least £30k to run for election. For tory/labour people running serious campaigns anyway. Would he have been able to retain access to Labour's data and tools? Or will he and his company of loons just be going door to random door banging on about the jews.



He'll have access to the Contact Creator data. He will either have a copy or someone will make it available to him. Could make for some interesting interactions out canvassing.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 10, 2019)

He did 20 grand in a few hours  to sue labour a month or so back. Fudn set up by a anti-semite loon of course.


Free Nelson Mandela the terrorist now.


----------



## Dogsauce (Nov 10, 2019)

copliker said:


> There is no shortage of mugs if his site is to be believed.
> 
> View attachment 189597



Nah, most of that money will come from rich Tory/libertarian agitators looking to make trouble for the Labour Party. A cheap win.


----------



## Cheesepig3 (Nov 11, 2019)

Without reading the whole thread, has anyone in the right wing "Labour are Nazis" faction asked themselves the pertinent question "is Judaism just a silly religious bollox undeserving of respect like all the others?"


......or isn't this an appropriate fight pit for humanists?


Stupid little hats and prayers are stupid regardless of label. This applies to Methodists and Muslims.


----------



## JimW (Nov 11, 2019)

Cheesepig3 said:


> Without reading the whole thread, has anyone in the right wing "Labour are Nazis" faction asked themselves the pertinent question "is Judaism just a silly religious bollox undeserving of respect like all the others?"
> 
> 
> ......or isn't this an appropriate fight pit for humanists?
> ...


How the fuck can you think anti-Semitism is just about theology? Bizarre.


----------



## Cheesepig3 (Nov 11, 2019)

JimW said:


> How the fuck can you think anti-Semitism is just about theology? Bizarre.



How the fuck, you throbber, can you infer that from my post? Worrying.

However... theology is part of it, and it's uniformly stupid.


Carry on.


----------



## JimW (Nov 11, 2019)

Cheesepig3 said:


> How the fuck, you throbber, can you infer that from my post? Worrying.
> 
> However... theology is part of it, and it's uniformly stupid.
> 
> ...


Because, you prick, you posed that question in your first line.


----------



## William of Walworth (Nov 11, 2019)

Apologies for quoting a much earlier post :




			
				teqniq said:
			
		

> After yesterday's fuckup Freedland goes on the offensive:
> 
> Many Jews want Boris Johnson out. But how can we vote for Jeremy Corbyn? | Jonathan Freedland



But how utterly over-the-top (  ) is that last paragraph? Slyly implying, as he definitely does, that a Jeremy Corbyn government would risk persecution of Jewish people -- the Holocaust comparison isn't overtly laid out but is definitely there. Bonkers 
Edit



			
				Freedland said:
			
		

> I understand that to many, all this will sound overwrought. I’m afraid that Jewish history has made us that way, prone to imagining the worst. We look at our usually sparse family trees and we can pick out the pessimists, those who panicked and got out. It was they who left their mark on us. *You see, the optimists, those who assumed things would work out for the best, they never made it out in time.*



Willing to bet, on the letters page, that Freedland will get a LOT of pushback from saner Guardian readers about that


----------



## SpineyNorman (Nov 11, 2019)

Cheesepig3 said:


> Without reading the whole thread, has anyone in the right wing "Labour are Nazis" faction asked themselves the pertinent question "is Judaism just a silly religious bollox undeserving of respect like all the others?"
> 
> 
> ......or isn't this an appropriate fight pit for humanists?
> ...


That's lovely. Now fuck off.


----------



## andysays (Nov 11, 2019)

Cheesepig3 said:


> Without reading the whole thread, has anyone in the right wing "Labour are Nazis" faction asked themselves the pertinent question "is Judaism just a silly religious bollox undeserving of respect like all the others?"
> 
> 
> ......or isn't this an appropriate fight pit for humanists?
> ...


You may or may not be an actual anti semite, but you're definitely a useful idiot for antisemitism


----------



## Dogsauce (Nov 11, 2019)

JimW said:


> How the fuck can you think anti-Semitism is just about theology? Bizarre.



“I’m not a racist, Islam isn’t a race”


----------



## SpineyNorman (Nov 11, 2019)

I don't reckon Moses really did part the Red Sea so people should stop banging on about the holocaust.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Nov 11, 2019)

andysays said:


> You may or may not be an actual anti semite, but you're definitely a useful idiot for antisemitism



I doubt he’s that useful tbf.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 11, 2019)

Cheesepig3 said:


> Without reading the whole thread, has anyone in the right wing "Labour are Nazis" faction asked themselves the pertinent question "is Judaism just a silly religious bollox undeserving of respect like all the others?"
> 
> 
> ......or isn't this an appropriate fight pit for humanists?
> ...


So what you're saying is that there _is _an attack on jewish people by the labour party and that this is justified because it's motivated by atheism.

Nice one.


----------



## andysays (Nov 11, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> So what you're saying is that there _is _an attack on jewish people by the labour party and that this is justified because it's motivated by atheism.
> 
> Nice one.


And because they wear "silly little hats"


----------



## CNT36 (Nov 11, 2019)

West Cornwall latest.
Labour candidate in Cornwall responds to anti-Semitism claims


> Mr Dwelly tweeted: "Labour’s candidate in St Ives Alana Bates wants Israel abolished.
> 
> "Her band sings that Palestine should be “one state”. Israel should be “out of the Middle East”, is a “racist state”. Repulsive racism. She should be expelled by Labour immediately."



Dwelly helps run a page called Cornwall Antisemitism Watch. It usually just takes facebook comments out of context but has exposed a few proper twats. The song here has been slightly misrepresented as the lyric is "troops out of the middle east."


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 11, 2019)

CNT36 said:


> West Cornwall latest.
> Labour candidate in Cornwall responds to anti-Semitism claims
> 
> 
> Dwelly helps run a page called Cornwall Antisemitism Watch. It usually just takes facebook comments out of context but has exposed a few proper twats. The song here has been slightly misrepresented as the lyric is "troops out of the middle east."


Not commenting on anything else but I thought a one state solution was a relatively mainstream position


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 11, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Not commenting on anything else but I thought a one state solution was a relatively mainstream position


Anything other than two states means necessarily an end to 'the Jewish State'. That's characerised by some as extremist and anti-Semitic. It's often assumed wrongly to mean expelling Jews from the area, rather than, say, a secular state that incorporates both Jews and Arabs.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 11, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Not commenting on anything else but I thought a one state solution was a relatively mainstream position


that is after all what things are tending towards


----------



## CNT36 (Nov 11, 2019)

Also saying Israel is a racist state is not the same thing as saying it is a racist endeavour.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 11, 2019)

CNT36 said:


> Also saying Israel is a racist state is not the same thing as saying it is a racist endeavour.


It's not that far off, though. Establishing an explicitly - and exclusively - Jewish state in a place where the numbers are close to 50:50 is a questionable endeavour in and of itself, racism-wise. Hard to see how Israel as currently constituted could be maintained in an entirely racism-free way, tbh.

Surely the key point can be put more strongly: calling Israel, the idea of a Jewish state in that place, a racist endeavour is not in and of itself anti-Semitic, which is the specific charge.


----------



## CNT36 (Nov 11, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> It's not that far off, though. Establishing an explicitly - and exclusively - Jewish state in a place where the numbers are close to 50:50 is a questionable endeavour in and of itself, racism-wise. Hard to see how Israel as currently constituted could be maintained in an entirely racism-free way, tbh.
> 
> Surely the key point can be put more strongly: calling Israel, the idea of a Jewish state in that place, a racist endeavour is not in and of itself anti-Semitic, which is the specific charge.


Dwelly uses the EHRC definition and racist endeavour is an example they use.


----------



## Libertad (Nov 11, 2019)

CNT36 said:


> West Cornwall latest.
> Labour candidate in Cornwall responds to anti-Semitism claims
> 
> 
> Dwelly helps run a page called Cornwall Antisemitism Watch. It usually just takes facebook comments out of context but has exposed a few proper twats. The song here has been slightly misrepresented as the lyric is "troops out of the middle east."



Tbf Tim Dwelly is a right cunt.


----------



## CNT36 (Nov 11, 2019)

Libertad said:


> Tbf Tim Dwelly is a right cunt.


Seems that way.


----------



## Gramsci (Nov 11, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Not commenting on anything else but I thought a one state solution was a relatively mainstream position



It is contentious. Tony Judt ( historian) got a lot of flack for deciding one state solution was necessary years back. Its still not mainstream position. Mainstream position would be two state solution.

The IHRA defintition has examples of anti Semitism. This is the relevant one:



> Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.



Using this example ( which the Labour party has adopted) it could be argued that supporting one state solution is anti Semitic as its denying the Jewish people right to self determination.

Working Definition of Antisemitism


----------



## Cloo (Nov 11, 2019)

To me, a good way to avoid coming over as antisemitic re: Israel is to say 'The Israeli government is/has....' (eg 'The Israeli government has created an apartheid state...' rather than 'Israel is...'. The fact is, like it or not, any right to be there or not, Israel _is _there and it's not going away or moving to South America and I think it's a simple way to make your point and make it less likely to come over as demonising Israelis or Jews in general.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 11, 2019)

Cloo said:


> To me, a good way to avoid coming over as antisemitic re: Israel is to say 'The Israeli government is/has....' (eg 'The Israeli government has created an apartheid state...' rather than 'Israel is...'. The fact is, like it or not, any right to be there or not, Israel _is _there and it's not going away or moving to South America and I think it's a simple way to make your point and make it less likely to come over as demonising Israelis or Jews in general.


Totally agree. There is fault on both sides here, though. There are those who don't manage to make their points without coming over as demonising Israelis or Jews in general, and sadly Corbyn himself has been guilty of this. And there are those who will wilfully misrepresent the views of others as anti-Semitic when they've been careful not to be.


----------



## teqniq (Nov 12, 2019)

Two state solution has been dead for years.


----------



## 19force8 (Nov 12, 2019)

teqniq said:


> Two state solution has been dead for years.


I'm pretty sure that's the position of the Israeli government.

(BTW, I'm not implying that you're a mouthpiece for the Israeli govt )


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 12, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> Using this example ( which the Labour party has adopted) it could be argued that supporting one state solution is anti Semitic as its denying the Jewish people right to self determination.


It depends on how you read this:

“Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.”

Here it says “_a_ state of Israel” not _the_ state of Israel, or _this_ state of Israel, or Israel as currently constituted and run.

This is related to the point Cloo makes: it’s important to be clear about what you’re criticising. Not “the Jews”. Not “the Israelis”. But a particular state structure and specific policy implementation.

I’d argue that the current state of Israel _is_ a racist endeavour: it seeks to be a Jewish state. If it sought to be a state in which Jews (and other residents) could live and exercise self determination, that’s a different matter. A secular, non discriminatory, democratic state of Israel is just fine. A racist, apartheid state is not.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 12, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> It depends on how you read this:
> 
> “Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.”
> 
> ...


Yeah this is spot on. Otherwise a belief in securalism, much less socialism of any stripe, would be in and of itself legislatively antisemitic


----------



## Knotted (Nov 12, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> It depends on how you read this:
> 
> “Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.”
> 
> ...



However, who would way "A state of Israel is a racist endeavour"? Virtually nobody and if they do they are probably Jewish of either a leftwing variety or ultra-orthodox variety. Anti-semites don't get hung up on the question of the concept of Jewish self-determination in the abstract.


----------



## CNT36 (Nov 12, 2019)

The definition had words to the effect that you should not treat Israel differently to other democratic states. Israel would not be the first democratic state to merge with a poorer neighbour they'd been in conflict with for decades.


----------



## 19force8 (Nov 12, 2019)

"merge"


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 12, 2019)

CNT36 said:


> The definition had words to the effect that you should not treat Israel differently to other democratic states. Israel would not be the first democratic state to merge with a poorer neighbour they'd been in conflict with for decades.


if the zionist entity has merged with what are commonly known as the occupied territories, why don't the people in the ot get a vote in the zionist entity's elections?


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 12, 2019)

Knotted said:


> However, who would way "A state of Israel is a racist endeavour"? Virtually nobody and if they do they are probably Jewish of either a leftwing variety or ultra-orthodox variety. Anti-semites don't get hung up on the question of the concept of Jewish self-determination in the abstract.


It’d be a clumsy sentence. But the change of pronoun is no small matter. It allows for a completely different attitude.


----------



## CNT36 (Nov 12, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> if the zionist entity has merged with what are commonly known as the occupied territories, why don't the people in the ot get a vote in the zionist entity's elections?


I was talking about the possibility of a one state solution not something that has already happened. I should have been clearer.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 12, 2019)

CNT36 said:


> I was talking about the possibility of a one state solution not something that has already happened. I should have been clearer.


there are numerous residents of the west bank who enjoy the vote in knesset elections: but also a great number who are not afforded a vote for the government of tel aviv, which government wields a great power over their lives. with this in mind i am unclear as to the democratic quality of the zionist entity you referred to in your 3112


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 12, 2019)

CNT36 said:


> The definition had words to the effect that you should not treat Israel differently to other democratic states. Israel would not be the first democratic state to merge with a poorer neighbour they'd been in conflict with for decades.



Just to be clear, Israel is not 'in conflict' with its 'neighbour' Palestine. Israel rules Palestine, which is effectively no different from the so-called homelands, the bantustans of apartheid South Africa. 

And just saying the above will get you labelled anti-Semitic by some, notably many from the Israeli government, who cynically use the first bit to call out any criticism whatever of Israel as anti-Semitic if it isn't at the same time accompanied by equivalent condemnation of every bad state in the world. 

Also that above definition contains within it disputable claims. Israel is democratic, for instance. Is it? What say do Palestinians have over how they are ruled? Israel is no more democratic than apartheid South Africa, in that sense. And again, that will be called out as anti-Semitic as a means of shutting down debate.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 12, 2019)

CNT36 said:


> The definition had words to the effect that you should not treat Israel differently to other democratic states. Israel would not be the first democratic state to merge with a poorer neighbour they'd been in conflict with for decades.



Merge? 

Colonised, brutalised and expelled through land grabs doesn't have the same sanitised ring to it obviously.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 12, 2019)

CNT36 said:


> I was talking about the possibility of a one state solution not something that has already happened. I should have been clearer.


Some consider that it already has happened. Remember the Israeli tourist board poster on the Tube a few years back, the one they had to take down after complaints about its borders?


----------



## CNT36 (Nov 12, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Just to be clear, Israel is not 'in conflict' with its 'neighbour' Palestine. Israel rules Palestine, which is effectively no different from the so-called homelands, the bantustans of apartheid South Africa.
> 
> And just saying the above will get you labelled anti-Semitic by some, notably many from the Israeli government, who cynically use the first bit to call out any criticism whatever of Israel as anti-Semitic if it isn't at the same time accompanied by equivalent condemnation of every bad state in the world.
> 
> Also that above definition contains within it disputable claims. Israel is democratic, for instance. Is it? What say do Palestinians have over how they are ruled? Israel is no more democratic than apartheid South Africa, in that sense. And again, that will be called out as anti-Semitic as a means of shutting down debate.


It's not my definition.  I have heard discussion of a one state shutdown and accusations of antisemitism using that part of the definition. I was attempting to make the point that even under that part of the definition a one state solution is not antisemitic as it has happened before.


----------



## CNT36 (Nov 12, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> Merge?
> 
> Colonised, brutalised and expelled through land grabs doesn't have the same sanitised ring to it obviously.


I was talking about the possibility of a one state solution.


----------



## CNT36 (Nov 12, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Some consider that it already has happened. Remember the Israeli tourist board poster on the Tube a few years back, the one they had to take down after complaints about its borders?


That's not what I would call a solution.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 12, 2019)

CNT36 said:


> I was talking about the possibility of a one state solution.



You used the word 'merge' which completely ignores what has already happened and what such a 'merger' would continue to mean to Palestinian people  'Colonised, brutalised and expelled through land grabs'.


----------



## CNT36 (Nov 12, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> You used the word 'merge' which completely ignores what has already happened and what such a 'merger' would continue to mean to Palestinian people  'Colonised, brutalised and expelled through land grabs'.


Fair point.


----------



## eoin_k (Nov 12, 2019)

CNT36 said:


> I was talking about the possibility of a one state solution not something that has already happened. I should have been clearer.



Does anyone advocating a one-state solution refer to that state as Israel? Either you recognise Israel as a Jewish state with a right to exist, or at least as a political reality that it is preferable to accommodate than the alternatives, or you advocate a one-state solution offering equal citizenship to the members of all ethnic and religious groups.


----------



## CNT36 (Nov 12, 2019)

eoin_k said:


> Does anyone advocating a one-state solution refer to that state as Israel? Either you recognise Israel as a Jewish state with a right to exist, or at least as a political reality that it is preferable to accommodate, or you advocate a one-state solution that offers equal citizenship to the members of all ethnic and religious groups.


Very few I'd imagine.


----------



## eoin_k (Nov 12, 2019)

CNT36 said:


> Very few I'd imagine.



Your contribution to this thread seems to be obscuring this key point.


----------



## CNT36 (Nov 12, 2019)

CNT36 said:


> West Cornwall latest.
> Labour candidate in Cornwall responds to anti-Semitism claims
> 
> 
> Dwelly helps run a page called Cornwall Antisemitism Watch. It usually just takes facebook comments out of context but has exposed a few proper twats. The song here has been slightly misrepresented as the lyric is "troops out of the middle east."


Made the Sun now.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Nov 20, 2019)

Poster boy for Labour:

“Remembering I need to hate Israeli Jews and people who think the State of Israel was/is a good idea”

 “I hate Zionism. I oppose the State of Israel. It is one of the worst thing’s [sic] ever created. To some extensiveness, Zionism is Nazism.”

Is this deliberate or what?. Did they really not think to check this guy?

https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/...azis-slur-as-face-of-poster-campaign-1.493369


----------



## killer b (Nov 20, 2019)

I think they've had their hands full checking anyone who's standing for parliament tbf. Easy to see how someone in a photo who isn't standing for anything could slip through.


----------



## killer b (Nov 20, 2019)

The Tories and the Lib Dems had to drop an actual candidate each yesterday for antisemitism, one of them for holocaust denial. There's a shitload of vetting for the parties to do right now and only so many people to type racist slurs into the search box on twitter over and over again.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 20, 2019)

killer b said:


> The Tories and the Lib Dems had to drop an actual candidate each yesterday for antisemitism, one of them for holocaust denial. There's a shitload of vetting for the parties to do right now and only so many people to type racist slurs into the search box on twitter over and over again.


...plenty of people to mindlessly repeat every result they come up with as FACT! in order to to _get the job done_ regardless of facts.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Nov 20, 2019)

killer b said:


> The Tories and the Lib Dems had to drop an actual candidate each yesterday for antisemitism, one of them for holocaust denial. There's a shitload of vetting for the parties to do right now and only so many people to type racist slurs into the search box on twitter over and over again.


But the Labour Party knew about this guy and what he said already, he was investigated.


----------



## killer b (Nov 20, 2019)

Sure. Did they know there was a photo of him in their library of photos for campaigns to use?


----------



## sleaterkinney (Nov 20, 2019)

If you attract these sort of people to the party and don’t kick them out, it’s a risk you take, isn’t it.


----------



## killer b (Nov 20, 2019)

they kicked him out though? 

what's your take on the other big Labour antisemitism story of the day, that Corbyn said Epstein in an antisemitic way in the debate last night?


----------



## Humberto (Nov 20, 2019)

sleaterkinney said:


> If you attract these sort of people to the party and don’t kick them out, it’s a risk you take, isn’t it.



Well, it isn't condoned. But it IS a convenient attack. Are Labour more or less racist, more or less anti-Semitic, than others? I would say less, clearly. So why does it get blown up all the time like this. Because cynical gobshites are trying to manipulate, throw mud and play by double standards.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 20, 2019)

killer b said:


> what's your take on the other big Labour antisemitism story of the day, that Corbyn said Epstein in an antisemitic way in the debate last night?



What's this?


----------



## killer b (Nov 20, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> What's this?


brain worms


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 20, 2019)

killer b said:


> brain worms


Nice to see gerald ratner making a comeback in that piece


----------



## GarveyLives (Nov 21, 2019)

killer b said:


> ... what's your take on the other big Labour antisemitism story of the day, that Corbyn said Epstein in an antisemitic way in the debate last night?


This is 'anti-Semitism'?:

_The way he said my name was so offensive_: Journalist ANGELA EPSTEIN blasts _Jeremy Corbyn's pronunciation_ and brands it 'the caricaturing of generations of anti-Semitism'


----------



## Mr Moose (Nov 21, 2019)

GarveyLives said:


> This is 'anti-Semitism'?:
> 
> _The way he said my name was so offensive_: Journalist ANGELA EPSTEIN blasts _Jeremy Corbyn's pronunciation_ and brands it 'the caricaturing of generations of anti-Semitism'



Hells bells that is a nasty piece.

_Mr Corbyn's Germanic diction drips with memories of the ghetto — when, during World War II, six million Jews were murdered in the Holocaust._


----------



## treelover (Nov 21, 2019)

Hells bells *that is a nasty piece.*


Thats her brand, bit like Spiked at times.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 21, 2019)

(Alan Partridge voice)


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 21, 2019)

A Labour candidate knocked on my door once. _Just as the Gestapo knocked on the doors of Jews during Hitler’s reign of terror._


----------



## Don Troooomp (Nov 22, 2019)

J Ed said:


> It's just nutpicking and the conflation of legitimate criticism of Israel with anti-Semitism.



Israal is a bastard of a country with a set of bastards for a government, but the percieved anti-semitism is a problem. Maureen Lipman has just made an anti-labour video in the style of the old BT adverts and you can expect the right wing press to make full use of it.
I only have a daily mail link at the moment and I don;t much like posting anything from that shitpaper of a news outlet.


----------



## tim (Nov 22, 2019)

eoin_k said:


> Does anyone advocating a one-state solution refer to that state as Israel? Either you recognise Israel as a Jewish state with a right to exist, or at least as a political reality that it is preferable to accommodate than the alternatives, or you advocate a one-state solution offering equal citizenship to the members of all ethnic and religious groups.



The current Israeli president favours annexing the occupied territories and granting the Palestinian population full civil rights.


> Rivlin has voiced support for a version of a one-state solution, and remains a staunch supporter of Jewish settlement in the West Bank.[33] In 2010, he said that he "would rather accept Palestinians as Israeli citizens than divide Israel and the West Bank in a future two-state peace solution".[34]
> 
> According to Rivlin, Israel's fight is not with the Palestinian people or Islam, but against murderous terrorism.[35] He pointed out that Palestinians could not be expected to accept a two-state solution where "one state is an invincible superpower, and the other is sub-autonomous"




Reuven Rivlin - Wikipedia


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 22, 2019)

Just watched that Maureen Lipman video. Obviously don't agree but I do like Lipman, she's great isn't she, she could read out Ayn Rand and I'd probably listen to the end


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 22, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Just watched that Maureen Lipman video. Obviously don't agree but I do like Lipman, she's great isn't she, she could read out Ayn Rand and I'd probably listen to the end



Is it as good as this from 2014? 


> Ms Lipman condemned Mr Miliband for supporting a House of Commons motion to recognise Palestine as a state.



Maureen Lipman says 'she can't vote Labour while Ed Miliband is


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 22, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> Is it as good as this from 2014?
> 
> 
> Maureen Lipman says 'she can't vote Labour while Ed Miliband is


Didn't know about that. Ah yeah I've no doubt she has horrible politics in lots of ways, just a good actor, not trying to justify any bollocks she has come out with


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 22, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> Is it as good as this from 2014?
> 
> 
> Maureen Lipman says 'she can't vote Labour while Ed Miliband is


it's strange how frequently people who say they can't vote for or work with labour while jc is leader are often the same people who said they couldn't bring themselves to vote for or work with labour under previous leaders too


----------



## brogdale (Nov 22, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Didn't know about that. Ah yeah I've no doubt she has horrible politics in lots of ways, just a good actor, not trying to justify any bollocks she has come out with


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 22, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> it's strange how frequently people who say they can't vote for or work with labour while jc is leader are often the same people who said they couldn't bring themselves to vote for or work with labour under previous leaders too


Yet many of them demanded that other people vote labour under tony blair in 97, 2000 and 2010 on the basis that getting rid of the tory govt was the single most important thing, so import that it required swallowing principles or be excoriated as traitor.

As for Lipman skills:_ look at me ma, i'm acting! _


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 22, 2019)

I still like her acting (can't do that shrug emoji thing)


----------



## strung out (Nov 22, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> I still like her acting (can't do that shrug emoji thing)


----------



## D'wards (Nov 22, 2019)

Not to do with labour but very much to do with anti semitism- what a prick


----------



## brogdale (Dec 2, 2019)

Don't know if we've had this yet...but seems quite a useful overview of antisemitism within Johnson's orbit. Nothing particularly new, mind.

Conservative anti-Semitism: the strange case of Boris Johnson, Richard Spencer and Gavin McInnes


----------



## Buddy Bradley (Dec 5, 2019)

Long thread of excerpts from the closing submissions by the Jewish Labour Movement to the Equality and Human Rights Commission Investigation into antisemitism in the Labour Party:


----------



## TopCat (Dec 5, 2019)

D'wards said:


> Not to do with labour but very much to do with anti semitism- what a prick



Well why post this on this thread then?


----------



## bimble (Dec 5, 2019)

Buddy Bradley said:


> Long thread of excerpts from the closing submissions by the Jewish Labour Movement to the Equality and Human Rights Commission Investigation into antisemitism in the Labour Party:



The absolute state of every reply to the Laura K tweet.


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 5, 2019)

‘Zinoviev letter’

Reminded me of the time some academic prick claimed that labour a/s would turn out to be like the zinoviev affair


----------



## D'wards (Dec 5, 2019)

TopCat said:


> Well why post this on this thread then?


Cos I didnt feel it warranted its own thread.

Anyway, sod off you sanctimonious tit


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 5, 2019)

D'wards said:


> Cos I didnt feel it warranted its own thread.
> 
> Anyway, sod off you sanctimonious tit


https://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/the-lonely-post-thread.293776/


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 5, 2019)

TopCat said:


> Well why post this on this thread then?



1 ‘Jews funded the slave trade’/Jackie Walker/anti-semitism articulated as anti-capitalism

2 The guy does seem mental; and scummy cults like Hebrew Israelites have thrived in part because of the pathogenic impact of austerity. (Ironically a reason for voting labour of course)


----------



## D'wards (Dec 5, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> https://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/the-lonely-post-thread.293776/


That was posted after my post


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 5, 2019)

D'wards said:


> That was posted after my post


yes, i know: your 3163, my 3164


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 5, 2019)

Not that it matters really but:

The guy who ranted at the Jewish kids on the tube the other day


----------



## TopCat (Dec 5, 2019)

MadeInBedlam said:


> 1 ‘Jews funded the slave trade’/Jackie Walker/anti-semitism articulated as anti-capitalism
> 
> 2 The guy does seem mental; and scummy cults like Hebrew Israelites have thrived in part because of the pathogenic impact of austerity. (Ironically a reason for voting labour of course)


So the link with the Labour Party, spell it out again eh?


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 5, 2019)

Can’t be arsed to spell it out again.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 5, 2019)

I hope the person who put that on the internet at least asked the family being abused first. 

Fuck all to do with the Labour Party. He's a religious nut. His antisemitism stems from that, not anything to do with the stuff some in the Labour Party have done or said.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 5, 2019)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Can’t be arsed to spell it out again.


Was there any link to the labour party or labour party members?


----------



## TopCat (Dec 5, 2019)

D'wards said:


> Cos I didnt feel it warranted its own thread.
> 
> Anyway, sod off you sanctimonious tit


Keyboard hardman are boring.


----------



## D'wards (Dec 5, 2019)

You came for me, old pal


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 5, 2019)

D'wards said:


> You came for me, old pal


No he didn't. He just asked why you posted it here. It's entirely irrelevant. If anything, it betrays a lack  of understanding of how the problem of antisemitism can and does manifest itself in certain parts of the left, which is really centred on Israel and the inability of some to be anti-Zionist without falling into anti-Semitism.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 5, 2019)

D'wards said:


> You came for me, old pal


Smear boy should be your tagline


----------



## D'wards (Dec 5, 2019)

TopCat said:


> Smear boy should be your tagline


Ok, love


----------



## TopCat (Dec 5, 2019)

D'wards said:


> Ok, love


Perhaps stupid smear boy would be more apt.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 5, 2019)

TopCat said:


> Perhaps stupid smear boy would be more apt.


skidmarks, going with his current tagline


----------



## D'wards (Dec 5, 2019)

Ok mates, you carry on


----------



## 8ball (Dec 5, 2019)

D'wards said:


> Not to do with labour but very much to do with anti semitism- what a prick




Say what you like about Jeremy Corbyn, he knows how to do a decent disguise.


----------



## D'wards (Dec 5, 2019)

No point arguing with a coupla complete oddballs like you two.
I'll leave you to it


----------



## D'wards (Dec 5, 2019)

TopCat I've literally just seen your thread in the health forum.
I wouldn't have engaged if I knew you were going through all that shit and I genuinely apologise, and not in a patronising way


----------



## TopCat (Dec 5, 2019)

D'wards said:


> TopCat I've literally just seen your thread in the health forum.
> I wouldn't have engaged if I knew you were going through all that shit and I genuinely apologise, and not in a patronising way


It makes no difference. Ill or no, your post was shit and your defense worse.


----------



## D'wards (Dec 5, 2019)

Ok


----------



## The Pale King (Dec 5, 2019)

David Graeber has done a video on Antisemitism and Labour - similar arguments to those he put forward in the article he wrote a while ago:


----------



## cantsin (Dec 5, 2019)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Can’t be arsed to spell it out again.



Walker was expelled from Labour ages ago, this w*nker on the tube was zilch to do even with Walker, let alone Labour - so if you don't mind, plse briefly explain what you think this has to do with Labour and AS ?


----------



## belboid (Dec 5, 2019)

cantsin said:


> Walker was expelled from Labour ages ago, this w*nker on the tube was zilch to do even with Walker, let alone Labour - so if you don't mind, plse briefly explain what you think this has to do with Labour and AS ?


don't bother, he'll only come out with some irrelevant bollocks. Probably misquoting someone along the way too.


----------



## cantsin (Dec 5, 2019)

honestly, am starting to lose the will to try and distinguish between genuine, good faith (and justified ) concerns about Labour and AS, and the cynical weaponisation of the whole issue that feels like it will never go until Corbyn, and his ( our )  politcal tendency in the Party are no longer in the driving seat.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 5, 2019)

cantsin said:


> Walker was expelled from Labour ages ago, this w*nker on the tube was zilch to do even with Walker, let alone Labour - so if you don't mind, plse briefly explain what you think this has to do with Labour and AS ?


You'll be led all round the houses and will rip your nasal hair out in frustration and despair


----------



## killer b (Dec 5, 2019)

cantsin said:


> honestly, am starting to lose the will to try and distinguish between genuine, good faith (and justified ) concerns about Labour and AS, and the cynical weaponisation of the whole issue that feels like it will never go until Corbyn, and his ( our )  politcal tendency in the Party are no longer in the driving seat.


You don't actually have to engage with it


----------



## cantsin (Dec 5, 2019)

killer b said:


> You don't actually have to engage with it



not totally sure what you mean here ... active LP / Momentum member, feel like we're being utterly f*cked over by the weaponisers on the one hand, and the ( tiny minority of )  cranks facilitating it all on the other... but 'don't actually have to engage with it' ?


----------



## killer b (Dec 5, 2019)

cantsin said:


> not totally sure what you mean here ... active LP / Momentum member, feel like we're being utterly f*cked over by the weaponisers on the one hand, and the ( tiny minority of )  cranks facilitating it all on the other... but 'don't actually have to engage with it' ?


Are people talking to you about it on the doorstep or elsewhere when you're campaigning? are you accomplishing anything at all by arguing about it here / elsewhere online? If not, then don't get involved. 

Antisemitism in Labour is a problem, without a doubt: but it's being cynically used right now by enemies of the left as a distraction, as a smokescreen, and as a demotivator. The reaction you're having is it's intended purpose.


----------



## cantsin (Dec 5, 2019)

killer b said:


> Are people talking to you about it on the doorstep or elsewhere when you're campaigning? are you accomplishing anything at all by arguing about it here / elsewhere online? If not, then don't get involved.
> 
> Antisemitism in Labour is a problem, without a doubt: but it's being cynically used right now by enemies of the left as a distraction, as a smokescreen, and as a demotivator. The reaction you're having is it's intended purpose.



agreed, but  unfortunately, it is bleeding into doorstep  / IRL situations now... from the woman the other day at a hustings who did a matt Hancock style ' buuuut.... anti semitism' dead cat blurt out when her v thin opposition to Lab /Green New Deal had been vigorously opposed, to the Brexit Party supporting ( near ) neighbour who defaulted to ' but look at Corbyn / AS ...= terrible leader ' angle....( bearing in mind we have approx 0 % Jewish constituents down here...wld be interested to hear first hand how this is all playing out on doorsteps in LDN / Manc etc ) 

Internally, we spend approx the same amount of time discussing AS , Israel / Palestine @ CLP / Branch meets as we ever did post 2015 (I never went b4 )  , ie : approx less than 1 % of all meets, ever.... but regrettably it does feel like it's cut through now into real life, if only in the most negative / default sense, or as lazy, proxy means of attack on Corbyn leadership.


----------



## D'wards (Dec 5, 2019)

I shouldn't have put the link to the twat on the tube on here as it has nothing to do with the Labour party.
And I'm sorry I reacted chippily to when i was asked why I did, as i tend to be a be defensive on here as I can see how aggressive it can be so tend to take any challenge as an attack, to a certain extent. 

Anyway, as you were


----------



## ska invita (Dec 6, 2019)

Apols if posted already
*Antisemitism and the Labour Party*
FREE EBOOK: writers on the ‘Labour antisemitism’ controversy, with contributions from Norman G. Finkelstein, Jeremy Gilbert, Antony Lerman, David Rosenberg, Naomi Wayne, and Jewish Voice for Labour, as well as a selection of hitherto unpublished testimonies from Jewish members of the Labour Party.
Verso


----------



## Cid (Dec 6, 2019)

Anyone on here read that? Any good?


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 6, 2019)

The chapter titles look awful - there's one defending Chris Williamson as well. I'm sure there's some good stuff in there but stuff like "Labour conference of Nuremburg rally: assessing the evidence" or the former may well hide it. It doesn't look like there's much beyond the sort of defences (maybe bordering on denial in some cases) that you will have seen already. In fact much of this is old stuff from blogs or the like collected, so you may have actually read them before.

Of course, remember a section of verso are bang into the nuttier stuff...


----------



## Cid (Dec 6, 2019)

I had a quick read of the Williamson one, "the most rigorous and penetrating analytical writings on the ‘Labour antisemitism’ affair" it most certainly is not.


----------



## killer b (Dec 6, 2019)

Stern-Weiner is a bit unhinged so I've assumed it's mostly going to be bollocks and ignored it


----------



## D'wards (Dec 8, 2019)

Oof

Jewish Labour Movement no longer backs own party

Jewish Labour Movement no longer backs own party


----------



## agricola (Dec 8, 2019)

D'wards said:


> Oof
> 
> Jewish Labour Movement no longer backs own party
> 
> Jewish Labour Movement no longer backs own party



They announced that months ago.  Also I am not sure about the claim in that piece that they didn't want it (the EHRC submission) leaked to the media, given that they had a press conference set up for it the same day.


----------



## MrSki (Dec 9, 2019)

So will this be headlines on the news tomorrow?



> Union of Orthodox Hebrew Congregations head, leader of 35,000 Jewish citizens, endorses Corbyn


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 10, 2019)

MrSki said:


> So will this be headlines on the news tomorrow?


Of course not! Got to be careful about self-proclaimed community leaders, of course. He doesn't speak for 35,000 people. However, given the position of many of those 35,000 wrt Israel, it's not such a surprising thing for him to say.


----------



## cantsin (Dec 11, 2019)

killer b said:


> You don't actually have to engage with it



( quick unrequested post script here )....after too much doorstep stuff, and far too much 'engaging' ( ie : nothingness ) with the never ending, at times mind boggling  sh*tshow on soc media of late, was losing marbles on monday -  mate in similar position just calmly declared he wasn't even looking at twitter etc post never ending Hancock journo stitch up, so joined him....and 24 hrs later feel like new man - yr response above sprung to mind, v simple / self evident stuff - props.


----------



## killer b (Dec 11, 2019)

hmm maybe I should try this.


----------



## cantsin (Dec 11, 2019)

it feels a big magical today tbh ( overstating here, obvs, and it was 100 %all self caused )


----------



## 19force8 (Dec 12, 2019)

ska invita said:


> Apols if posted already
> *Antisemitism and the Labour Party*
> FREE EBOOK: writers on the ‘Labour antisemitism’ controversy, with contributions from Norman G. Finkelstein, Jeremy Gilbert, Antony Lerman, David Rosenberg, Naomi Wayne, and Jewish Voice for Labour, as well as a selection of hitherto unpublished testimonies from Jewish members of the Labour Party.
> Verso


I'm sure it's worth every penny.

Alternatively for only £15:

Bad News for Labour

Some actual proper research.


----------



## sunnysidedown (Dec 12, 2019)

19force8 said:


> I'm sure it's worth every penny.
> 
> Alternatively for only £15:
> 
> ...



£7.49 at the moment.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 12, 2019)

sunnysidedown said:


> £7.49 at the moment.


yeh. i bought it at its full price from an actual independent bookshop although it's available more cheaply online. you have to pay if you want independent bookshops to remain open.


----------



## 19force8 (Dec 12, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh. i bought it at its full price from an actual independent bookshop although it's available more cheaply online. you have to pay if you want independent bookshops to remain open.


Very much this 

E2A Not having a go at people who are short of funds. Do what you gotta do.


----------



## sunnysidedown (Dec 12, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh. i bought it at its full price from an actual independent bookshop although it's available more cheaply online. you have to pay if you want independent bookshops to remain open.



you're talking to someone who just paid the full price for Cleavers 33 Lessons that is currently half price via PP's website. Purchased from an independent bookshop no less.


----------



## hash tag (Dec 12, 2019)

This was posted today. I would have thought this counts as electioneering which is surely not allowed today? 
How it feels to be Jewish today amidst the resurgence of anti-Semitism


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 12, 2019)

hash tag said:


> This was posted today. I would have thought this counts as electioneering which is surely not allowed today?
> How it feels to be Jewish today amidst the resurgence of anti-Semitism


It’s fine in newspapers. They all do their voter recommendation leader today too.


----------



## bimble (Dec 17, 2019)

The state of it. I don't know what the triumphant legal stuff means but second half of the video is pretty special. And thousands of the faithful still there, Standing By Chris.


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 17, 2019)

Francesca Martinez is a big Williamson fan


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 17, 2019)

Double post


----------



## LDC (Dec 17, 2019)

bimble said:


> The state of it. I don't know what the triumphant legal stuff means but second half of the video is pretty special. And thousands of the faithful still there, Standing By Chris.




Such a cunt. How many votes did he get as an independent candidate again, about 3?


----------



## Ax^ (Dec 17, 2019)

hash tag said:


> This was posted today. I would have thought this counts as electioneering which is surely not allowed today?
> How it feels to be Jewish today amidst the resurgence of anti-Semitism



withstanding his points .i'd been more worried for his wife and the black/asain/european population of englands position after the election result..


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 22, 2020)

Game over 









						UK left activists attended events with far right antisemites
					

Ex-Labour members secretly recorded at meetings with Holocaust deniers




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 22, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Game over
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Be interested to know the cross over between with the against the witchunt crowd (would imagine quite a lot)


----------



## rekil (Feb 22, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Game over
> 
> 
> 
> ...


As mentioned previously but omitted from this piece, Beeley has been a speaker for them.



Spoiler


----------



## cantsin (Feb 22, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Game over
> 
> 
> 
> ...



what a load of old bollocks...

I mean, are you serious ? ( clue : where are there Lab Party members involved here ? )

" Footage taken during the Kentish Town meeting has also identified Gill Kaffash, former secretary of the Camden branch of the Palestine Solidarity Campaign, *whose membership application was rejected by the Labour party in 2016 because she had promoted Holocaust revisionism.

Other Keep Talking attendees include Holocaust denier and far-right activist Alison Chabloz,* who the _Jewish News_ reported in 2015 became a supporter of the Labour party and “declared loyalty to Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn in several blog posts”.

Honestly, if you ever wonder why people have stopped listening re : A/S, you couldn't get a better example than this piece - expelled cranks  + quasi nazis who have nothing to do with Labour etc etc, cynically, blatantly, feebly weaponised against the rest of us, once again. F*cking rotten tbh  mate.

And you consider that .... " game over " ?? What " game " are you referring to ?


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 22, 2020)

Rutita1 said:


> In the context of the conversations she was having, and given her own ethnic background I don't think I have actually read anything that clearly outlines what was wrong with her comments. Lots of suggestion that 'she can't say that', a fuckton of snidey 'self hating Jew' comments at the time this story broke as I recall, and then there were the really nasty insinuations and indirect questioning of her actual 'Jewishness'.
> 
> It would be interesting to know how others think she could have had those conversations without saying what she did and what people think gives them the right to decide how she is allowed to interact with and describe her relationship and thoughts about her own hertitage/history.



Is Jacky Walker still a victim in your eyes, Princess?


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 22, 2020)

cantsin said:


> if you ever wonder why people have stopped listening re : A/S



Is that what’s happening cantsin? Doesn’t look that way. 

Swift response from you as ever to do the ‘weaponised smears’ schtick. Funny that.


----------



## treelover (Feb 22, 2020)

Was going to post this, serious stuff, yes, most are not LP members, but its not all published yet, many of these people do though claim to be on the left, how has this happened, maybe people were too sanguine about the shouts of We are all Hamas, etc, I tried to stop that chant once and was threatened.  maybe if the left still saw basic issues like housing, social security, class, and economic inequality as the key elements, there would have been space for the cranks and anti-semites.

I did read once how Corbyn pegged it round to Kollostroms house as he had some important info on Palestine to impart, will try and find the link.


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 22, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Is that what’s happening cantsin? Doesn’t look that way.
> 
> Swift response from you as ever to do the ‘weaponised smears’ schtick. Funny that.



you following the labour leadership contest Cantsin?


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 22, 2020)

Not sure it really matters if people in labour, not in labour, were but got kicked out. Its the political pools people are swimming in that is interesting. For me anyway.


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 22, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Not sure it really matters if people in labour, not in labour, were but got kicked out. Its the political pools people are swimming in that is interesting. For me anyway.



exactly.

Moaning that AS is being ‘weaponised’ against the LP is both pointless (the election was last year, they lost) and point-missing


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 22, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> exactly.
> 
> Moaning that AS is being ‘weaponised’ against the LP is both pointless (the election was last year, they lost) and point-missing



Genuinely found this real world crossover between the 'cranks' in and around labour left with far right surprising too tbh. Maybe naive of me, knew there already was and inevitably would be online crossover, knew there was real life interaction and cooperation on stuff like assadism, perhaps palestine but with far right hiding behind a bushel, but explicitly on holocaust denial. Fucks sake.


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 22, 2020)

Perhaps Jews should be grateful to the Left for doing so much to end the association between Jews and Marxism. Not much mileage in advocating a ‘solution’ to Judeo-Boshevism these days 

Last year I had mates of mine from sunday league teams (some id barely spoken to for the best part of two decades) stressing about Jeremy mates-with-terrorists Corbyn getting into power. None of them are Jews I should add, or particularly left-wing. 

the Corbyn project has managed to both recruit people (well, weirdos) into antisemitism, and recruit normal people into a genuine belief that Jews need to be protected from you head cases.

Funny how things work out


----------



## treelover (Feb 22, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Francesca Martinez is a big Williamson fan



That is sad, i am contradicting my earlier post, but it seems many of these cranks, A/S's, are also some of the few allies claimants, etc have.


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 22, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> cooperation on stuff like assadism



Geopolitics. 

Not only have we seen much left/right crossover in the service of supporting/antagonising the ‘anti-imperialist’/‘resistance’ powers; but also a split within the far right (eg grayzone going for Iran/Assad; Sargon whatshisface going against Iran/Assad)


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 22, 2020)

treelover said:


> That is sad, i am contradicting my earlier post, but it seems many of these cranks, A/S's, are also some of the few allies claimants, etc have.



I think Martinez is just a bit thick more than anything


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 22, 2020)

treelover said:


> many of these cranks, A/S's, are also some of the few allies claimants, etc have.



Exactly.

They will tell you no one cares about you, that only they care about you, that those who criticise them hate you.

And that the Jews are killing you. 

Lowest form of scum really


----------



## treelover (Feb 22, 2020)

Where did they come from, were they hiding in plain sight, never really met anyone like that.


----------



## treelover (Feb 22, 2020)

There is mass poverty, zhc, millions using FB's, isn't that enough to be getting on with, are they red/brown?


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 22, 2020)

treelover said:


> many of these cranks, A/S's, are also some of the few allies claimants, etc have.



It’s easier that way isn’t it? 

No one cares about us vulnerable disabled people do they treelover?


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 22, 2020)

treelover said:


> There is mass poverty, zhc, millions using FB's, isn't that enough to be getting on with, are they red/brown?



Does taking along Roy fucking Bard and a swastika flag to a memorial to the holocaust (sticking it to the Jews there lads) count as red/brown?


----------



## belboid (Feb 23, 2020)

cantsin said:


> what a load of old bollocks...
> 
> I mean, are you serious ? ( clue : where are there Lab Party members involved here ? )
> 
> ...


the weird thing is, I think he actually means it!  A (complete shit of a) man once spoke at a meeting alongside Jeremy Corbyn' brother.  What more proof could you need?


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 23, 2020)

belboid said:


> the weird thing is, I think he actually means it!  A (complete shit of a) man once spoke at a meeting alongside Jeremy Corbyn' brother.  What more proof could you need?



Elleanne Green knows corbyn personally, went to support williamson at court, was a founder and key figure in jewish voice for labour. If you can put down your massive vote labour banner for long enough to think about it, do you reckon that says anything about the political currents they are in


----------



## belboid (Feb 23, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Elleanne Green knows corbyn personally, went to support williamson at court, was a founder and key figure in jewish voice for labour. If you can put down your massive vote labour banner for long enough to think about it, do you reckon that says anything about the political currents they are in


who are 'they'? Three people are mentioned, all not Labour Party members. They are minor league nobodies. Game over?? ffs.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 23, 2020)

belboid said:


> who are 'they'? Three people are mentioned, all not Labour Party members. They are minor league nobodies. Game over?? ffs.



Fucks sake


----------



## belboid (Feb 23, 2020)

Please expand.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 23, 2020)

They being the people and groups in my post btw


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 23, 2020)

belboid said:


> the weird thing is, I think he actually means it!  A (complete shit of a) man once spoke at a meeting alongside Jeremy Corbyn' brother.  What more proof could you need?



what’s the plan belboid? What’s your political strategy after the labour leadership election?

You had your chance. You fucked it up. 

Back to the paper sales then?


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 23, 2020)

the ‘game over’ comment refers to you and your politics belboid 

or am I wrong? What’s the next big idea for the revolutionary Socialist Vanguard?


----------



## TopCat (Feb 23, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> I think Martinez is just a bit thick more than anything


Ffs


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 23, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Ffs



what’s up, buttercup?


----------



## belboid (Feb 23, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> They being the people and groups in my post btw


you've only just discovered a small number of people on the fringes of the left are loons?  Where have you been??


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 23, 2020)

There’s always the possibility that FM’s cult-like support for Williamson is because she’s into all that Jew conspiracy stuff I guess


----------



## belboid (Feb 23, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> what’s the plan belboid? What’s your political strategy after the labour leadership election?
> 
> You had your chance. You fucked it up.
> 
> Back to the paper sales then?


lol.


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 23, 2020)

belboid said:


> a small number of people on the fringes of the left are loons?



do you think you’re _winning the argument_ on this?

You’re on a sinking ship, the smarter rats are swimming away pronto (Laura Murray being one such example).

It’s. Over.


----------



## belboid (Feb 23, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> do you think you’re _winning the argument_ on this?
> 
> You’re on a sinking ship, the smarter rats are swimming away pronto (Laura Murray being one such example).
> 
> It’s. Over.


lol


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 23, 2020)

belboid said:


> lol.



Oh I am  

you’ve got nothing left. 12/12/2019 was the last roll of the dice for people like you.

All that time and effort for nothing


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 23, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Ffs



do you reckon Martinez will join Galloway/Williamson’s new vehicle? Will you?


----------



## TopCat (Feb 23, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> do you reckon Martinez will join Galloway/Williamson’s new vehicle? Will you?


I'm not much of a joiner. I left the LP because they would not campaign for leave.


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 23, 2020)

TopCat said:


> I'm not much of a joiner. I left the LP because they would not campaign for leave.



no one cares what you do (or don’t do).

Martinez’ unrepentant support racist politicians people are more concerned about. What do you think was going on for her?


----------



## brogdale (Feb 23, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> no one cares what you do (or don’t do).


Who are you speaking for here?


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 23, 2020)

belboid said:


> you've only just discovered a small number of people on the fringes of the left are loons?  Where have you been??



Its just a spontaneous event, like an act of god or something, doesn't require any introspection or political evaluation. Will always be a few cranks who happen to personally know labour mp's getting friendly with far right types and going to meetings about how the holocaust is a lie, one of those things isn't it mate, dunno what the fuss is about, where have I been!!!


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 23, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Who are you speaking for here?



the masses. They’ve been sending me PMs


----------



## brogdale (Feb 23, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> the masses. They’ve been sending me PMs


Impressive.


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 23, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Impressive.



Sadly your contribution to this thread isn’t 

why are you here? For the lols?


----------



## brogdale (Feb 23, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Sadly your contribution to this thread isn’t
> 
> why are you here? For the lols?


Oh, called out once speaking for others and you get all arsey & thread policey.


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 23, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Oh, called out once speaking for others and you get all arsey & thread policey.



Fascinating


----------



## brogdale (Feb 23, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Fascinating


As you like; just anyone speaking for others usually comes across as a bit of a cunt.


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 23, 2020)

I’ll never be allowed into the golf club now


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 24, 2020)

another minor league nobody.

“Mehmood Mirza, vice chairman of the West Ham Labour Party, is alleged to have shared a cartoon showing a sticker with the words ‘Anti-Semitism’ placed across the mouth of a man who has a ‘Free Palestine’ band around his head. The image, posted onto Mr Mirza’s Facebook account, was created by Brazilian artists Carlos Latuff, who was previously accused of creating anti-Semitic content.”









						Labour leadership race means anti-Semitism crisis STILL a huge problem
					

LABOUR has been accused of ignoring the party's anti-Semitism crisis due to the leadership race taking months to wrap up resulting in a lack of resources to tackle the issue.




					www.express.co.uk
				




What’s your plan belboid? The ‘media smears’ aren’t going to stop. Where next?


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 24, 2020)

anyway, here’s the report 



			https://cst.org.uk/public/data/file/6/c/keep-talking-2020-02.pdf


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 24, 2020)

It's ok it's just a small number of people on the fringes of the left


----------



## Idris2002 (Feb 24, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Elleanne Green knows corbyn personally



Genuine question: what does "knows Corbyn personally" mean here? Just someone you run into on the street ocassionally? Bosom buddies bound by deep ties of comradeship? Or somewhere in between? Or neither?


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 24, 2020)

Idris2002 said:


> Genuine question: what does "knows Corbyn personally" mean here? Just someone you run into on the street ocassionally? Bosom buddies bound by deep ties of comradeship? Or somewhere in between? Or neither?



Dunno. Some parties claimed they were close personal friends, corbyn's office said they were aquaintences and facebook friends. If I had to hazard a guess I'd say its probably somewhere in between. 

Anyway I'm not truing to do some gotcha, my point is that the political culture on left that allows this to happen, that means antisemites and conspiracists go unnoticed or unchallenged, that means there is persistently 'a few loons on the fringe', should be probed and interrogated. Bizarre this is contentious really.


----------



## Idris2002 (Feb 24, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Dunno. Some parties claimed they were close personal friends, corbyn's office said they were aquaintences and facebook friends. If I had to hazard a guess I'd say its probably somewhere in between.
> 
> Anyway I'm not truing to do some gotcha, my point is that the political culture on left that allows this to happen, that means antisemites and conspiracists go unnoticed or unchallenged, that means there is persistently 'a few loons on the fringe', should be probed and interrogated. Bizarre this is contentious really.


Can't argue with that. The whole "you're a cunt" aspect to this place may have its drawbacks, but it does at least permit a certain degree of political hygiene.

If you don't want your flanks to be overrun, don't expose them to the enemy.


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 24, 2020)

I wonder what attracts headbanging racists to the ‘continuity Corbyn’ candidate. 

Such a mystery 









						Long-Bailey Facebook group rife with antisemitism
					

Antisemitic posts are rife in the largest Facebook group supporting Rebecca Long-Bailey, The Red Roar can reveal.    Posts in the We Support Rebecca Long-Bailey group have blamed Jews for everything from inventing Labour’s antisemitism crisis to supplying the




					www.theredroar.com


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 24, 2020)

__





						jewish voice for labour "grayzone" - Google Search
					





					www.google.co.uk
				




JVL supporting, and supported by, those not in any way fascists at Grayzone.

because they care about austerity/the disabled/the Palestinians


----------



## sleaterkinney (Feb 24, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> It's ok it's just a small number of people on the fringes of the left


And hopefully they will be gone out of the leadership of the labour party soon enough.


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 24, 2020)

And these ‘small number’ of antisemites will just take that lying down?

this clusterfuck will rage on for years.

you were told this would happen


----------



## toblerone3 (Feb 24, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Are you for or against Jewish Voice for Labour? and why?


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 24, 2020)

toblerone3 said:


> Are you for or against Jewish Voice for Labour? and why?



Are you for or against an organisation that was set up to defend antisemites and which has links with Norton/Blumenthal/Grayzone?


----------



## toblerone3 (Feb 24, 2020)

So you are against Jewish Voice for Labour. Really ^  I went on a Jewish East end Walk recently with David Rosenberg who apparently was one of the founders of Jewish Voice for Labour and I really didn't get the impression that he was an anti semite.  I don't know who Norton, Blumenthal or Grayzone are. As an aside the shadow justice minister Richard Burgon was also on the walk and appeared to be very close to David Rosenberg.  Is he also an anti semite?

Here is David Rosenberg writing in the Guardian about Cable Street which featured in the walk we went on. 'Antidote to far right's poison' – battle for Cable Street’s mural


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 24, 2020)

That there are people in this thread who gave learned nothing in the four years since it started.

what a joke the Left is.


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 24, 2020)

You have allied yourselves with those who either insane or scum (or both). 

You will never get rid of them. They won’t leave without a fight. They will attack you incessantly.

this is your problem now.


----------



## toblerone3 (Feb 24, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> another minor league nobody.
> 
> “Mehmood Mirza, vice chairman of the West Ham Labour Party, is alleged to have shared a cartoon showing a sticker with the words ‘Anti-Semitism’ placed across the mouth of a man who has a ‘Free Palestine’ band around his head. The image, posted onto Mr Mirza’s Facebook account, was created by Brazilian artists Carlos Latuff, who was previously accused of creating anti-Semitic content.”
> 
> ...



Could you post an image of the cartoon involved so that we can discuss it here?


----------



## toblerone3 (Feb 24, 2020)

Was it similar to this one?


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 24, 2020)

What do you think of Latuff and his cartoons (the ones you’ve seen and read descriptions of) toblerone3 ?


----------



## toblerone3 (Feb 24, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> What do you think of Latuff and his cartoons (the ones you’ve seen and read descriptions of) toblerone3 ?



I haven't seen any of them until today when I did a quick image search.  So before we get to discussing dozens of cartoons here. Could we discuss the one which I have posted.  I think its message is that accusations of anti-semitism are being used to stifle legitimate pro-Palestinian sentiment and demonstrations.  I think that is fair comment and not at all anti-semitic.  What do you think?


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 24, 2020)

I think you’re an idiot


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 24, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> I think you’re an idiot


And the basis for your conclusion is...


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 24, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> And the basis for your conclusion is...



his posts


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 24, 2020)

2020 and even Carlos ‘Holocaust cartoon’ latuff is being defended


----------



## LDC (Feb 24, 2020)

Latuff was known even back in the '90s and in quite naive political circles as being an anti-semitic fuck.


----------



## toblerone3 (Feb 24, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> 2020 and even Carlos ‘Holocaust cartoon’ latuff is being defended



No.  I'm just saying that the cartoon I posted above seems to be fine.  What holocaust cartoon are you talking about?  Never seen it.


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 24, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> And the basis for your conclusion is...





MadeInBedlam said:


> his posts



such as this one



toblerone3 said:


> No.  I'm just saying that the cartoon I posted above seems to be fine.  What holocaust cartoon are you talking about?  Never seen it.


----------



## toblerone3 (Feb 24, 2020)

So you're agreeing that the the image itself is fine and not anti-semitic but that other stuff that the cartoonist did in the past is not.  Is that right?


----------



## Serge Forward (Feb 24, 2020)

Latuff is as anti semitic as they come. Take a little while to look at a range of his images rather than just one, and you'll soon see the cut of his jib.


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 24, 2020)

toblerone3 said:


> So you're agreeing that the the image itself is fine and not anti-semitic but that other stuff that the cartoonist did in the past is not.  Is that right?



Christ


----------



## toblerone3 (Feb 24, 2020)

Serge Forward said:


> Latuff is as anti semitic as they come. Take a little while to look at a range of his images rather than just one, and you'll soon see the cut of his jib.



OK there are a number of them making comparisons between the Holocaust and Israel's treatment of the Palestinians. Does that mean that any picture of his is tainted by association.  I notice that that there doesn't seem to be a signature on the one I posted.  Is anything that he does tainted by association even when it makes a valid and non anti-semitic point?


----------



## toblerone3 (Feb 24, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Christ



Fuck off. Stop being a twat.  Just explain yourself politely.


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 24, 2020)

toblerone3 said:


> Fuck off. Stop being a twat.  Just explain yourself politely.



_you people_. No manners


----------



## toblerone3 (Feb 24, 2020)

toblerone3 said:


> So you are against Jewish Voice for Labour. Really ^  I went on a Jewish East end Walk recently with David Rosenberg who apparently was one of the founders of Jewish Voice for Labour and I really didn't get the impression that he was an anti semite.  I don't know who Norton, Blumenthal or Grayzone are. As an aside the shadow justice minister Richard Burgon was also on the walk and appeared to be very close to David Rosenberg.  Is he also an anti semite?
> 
> Here is David Rosenberg writing in the Guardian about Cable Street which featured in the walk we went on. 'Antidote to far right's poison' – battle for Cable Street’s mural



I would be interested in other people's take on Jewish Voice for Labour. I know MadeInBedlam doesn't like them.


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 24, 2020)

toblerone3 said:


> . I know MadeInBedlam doesn't like them.



Tell us what you think of Grayzone/Blumenthal/Norton toblerone


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 24, 2020)

toblerone3 said:


> I would be interested in other people's take on Jewish Voice for Labour. I know MadeInBedlam doesn't like them.



There might be ok but misguided people in it but there is also pure absolute filth. The former I'm not sure about, the latter I am certain of.


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 24, 2020)

There’s also a fair few genuinely vulnerable (eg due to Mental health) people taken in  

JVL is a cult. An antisemitic hate cult that is.


----------



## toblerone3 (Feb 24, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Tell us what you think of Grayzone/Blumenthal/Norton toblerone



Dont know but Goliath sounds like an interesting book to read. 








						Goliath: Life and Loathing in Greater Israel - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 24, 2020)

From the long-Bailey campaign trail


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 24, 2020)

Could you make a bit of effort to understand the groups/individuals you are defending toblerone3 ?


----------



## toblerone3 (Feb 24, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> There’s also a fair few genuinely vulnerable (eg due to Mental health) people taken in
> 
> JVL is a cult. An antisemitic hate cult that is.



Wow that's pretty strong stuff. I didn't get that impression through talking to David Rosenberg.  He seemed like a genuinely nice guy and an real expert in the history of anti-semitism especially as it related to the Cable Street history (which in case you don't know Battle of Cable Street - Wikipedia) in East London.   We went for a lovely walk in East London and ate with him and in a Shadwell cafe afterwards.  To say somebody who is immersed in that history and comes across as a really nice guy is part of an anti-semitic hate cult. Not that doesn't seem right.  Sorry you are not convincing me at all.


----------



## CNT36 (Feb 24, 2020)

toblerone3 said:


> OK there are a number of them making comparisons between the Holocaust and Israel's treatment of the Palestinians. Does that mean that any picture of his is tainted by association.  I notice that that there doesn't seem to be a signature on the one I posted.  Is anything that he does tainted by association even when it makes a valid and non anti-semitic point?


Yes.
If your man posted an image not knowing it was by an antisemite that is possibly a mitigating factor for him. However the way Latuff depicts Jewish people is antisemitic no matter what the message is supposed to be.


----------



## toblerone3 (Feb 24, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> There might be ok but misguided people in it but there is also pure absolute filth. The former I'm not sure about, the latter I am certain of.



Can you give details about the 'pure absolute filth' from your experience?


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 24, 2020)

toblerone3 said:


> Can you give details about the 'pure absolute filth' from your experience?



Mate, this thread was resuscitated yesterday because of an investigation which recorded a senior JVL figure appearing at a brown red meeting of holocaust deniers


----------



## toblerone3 (Feb 24, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Mate, this thread was resuscitated yesterday because of an investigation which recorded a senior JVL figure appearing at a brown red meeting of holocaust deniers



Which post was that I can't find the link.

Eta is it Elleanne Green??
Alison Chabloz?
Miko Peled?
Ian Fantom?

*FFS this is all such a witch hunt smear campaign!!  Its all guilty by association. He once liked a post by some who once knew somebody who shook hands with somebody else.*

i get it that there are some people/issues that need addressing, but the perspective on this is totally lacking.


----------



## toblerone3 (Feb 24, 2020)

CNT36 said:


> Yes.
> If your man posted an image not knowing it was by an antisemite that is possibly a mitigating factor for him. However the way Latuff depicts Jewish people is antisemitic no matter what the message is supposed to be.



I know its the messenger not the message.


----------



## toblerone3 (Feb 24, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Could you make a bit of effort to understand the groups/individuals you are defending toblerone3 ?



So what is your understanding then?


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 25, 2020)

toblerone3 said:


> *FFS this is all such a witch hunt smear campaign!!  Its all guilty by association. *.



And there we are


----------



## TopCat (Feb 25, 2020)

toblerone3 said:


> Wow that's pretty strong stuff. I didn't get that impression through talking to David Rosenberg.  He seemed like a genuinely nice guy and an real expert in the history of anti-semitism especially as it related to the Cable Street history (which in case you don't know Battle of Cable Street - Wikipedia) in East London.   We went for a lovely walk in East London and ate with him and in a Shadwell cafe afterwards.  To say somebody who is immersed in that history and comes across as a really nice guy is part of an anti-semitic hate cult. Not that doesn't seem right.  Sorry you are not convincing me at all.


David Rosenburg always had good links with Gerry Gable of Searchlight fame and was reputed to have been the Guardian's security services link man. He accused Class War (in 1984) of being run by ex leading members of the National Front. Total bolloks, without any foundation. This was just stirring shit to disrupt growing alliances.


----------



## toblerone3 (Feb 25, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> And there we are



Are you agreeing with me or not?


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 25, 2020)

You’re an embarrassment toblerone. I think we can agree on that


----------



## toblerone3 (Feb 25, 2020)

What is the relevance of criticism of "whataboutery" to this debate?


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 25, 2020)

Lol you nutter


----------



## toblerone3 (Feb 25, 2020)

Instead of posting passive agressive sneary bollocks insults why don't you actually post something about what you think.


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 25, 2020)

Answer me Jew!


----------



## two sheds (Feb 25, 2020)

where did toblerone suggest that?


----------



## toblerone3 (Feb 25, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Tell us what you think of Grayzone/Blumenthal/Norton toblerone



Why don't you tell us what you think of them?


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 25, 2020)

two sheds said:


> where did toblerone suggest that?



where did he repeatedly demand I respond to his increasingly demented rants?

he outed himself with his ‘WITCHUNT’ (in enlarged text, for some reason) post.

He is owed nothing


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 25, 2020)

two sheds said:


> where did toblerone suggest that?





toblerone3 said:


> Why don't you tell us what you think of them?



errrrrr


----------



## two sheds (Feb 25, 2020)

Looks to me like he was asking for answers and you were just sneering, hence his irritation. 


MadeInBedlam said:


> errrrrr



I meant the "Jew!" comment.


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 25, 2020)

No manners, _despite living here all their lives_


----------



## toblerone3 (Feb 25, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Answer me Jew!



What is the meaning of this complaint? Assuming this is directed at me.  I don't get it.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 25, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> No manners, _despite living here all their lives_



No, I don't think toblerone has suggested that either.


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 25, 2020)

two sheds said:


> No, I don't think toblerone has suggested that either.



Good for you. I’ve got work now; you can take over babysitting toblerone


----------



## 19force8 (Feb 25, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> this clusterfuck will rage on for years.


----------



## rekil (Feb 25, 2020)

CNT36 said:


> However the way Latuff depicts Jewish people is antisemitic no matter what the message is supposed to be.


He came 2nd in Iran's holocaust cartoon competition.

There are no "far left" people in that hnh report and how they even define the "far left" is anyone's guess but they needed to position themselves as the sensibles between extremes I suppose.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 25, 2020)

The social democracy of fools


----------



## CNT36 (Feb 25, 2020)

rekil said:


> He came 2nd in Iran's holocaust cartoon competition.


Monopoly has really let itself go.


----------



## cantsin (Feb 25, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Is that what’s happening cantsin? Doesn’t look that way.
> 
> Swift response from you as ever to do the ‘weaponised smears’ schtick. Funny that.



and precisely zero response from you to  the facts stated re: the hit piece being about non Lab members - no surprise there


----------



## cantsin (Feb 25, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Elleanne Green knows corbyn personally, went to support williamson at court, was a founder and key figure in jewish voice for labour. If you can put down your massive vote labour banner for long enough to think about it, do you reckon that says anything about the political currents they are in



yep : suspended / excluded / expelled ones, and rightly so.

We've got the largest membership in Europe, and have attracted a fair few cranks and wrong un's into our ranks over the last 5 years due to Corbyn's unwavering support for the Palestinian people, and on the downside, cos of his and his cohorts reflexive anti US imperialism and the blindspots that creates. - But the effort'being made to get rid of the wrong un's is starting to pay off, and the article above demonstrates that  ( as well as the challenges the Party continues to face).


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 25, 2020)

cantsin said:


> and precisely zero response from you to  the facts stated re: the hit piece being about non Lab members - no surprise there



Oh fgs stop whining


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 25, 2020)

What’s your plan then cantsin? Where next for your politics?


----------



## cantsin (Feb 25, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Oh fgs stop whining



lolz, yr quality, keep up the good work

"iT$ ovER "


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 25, 2020)

cantsin said:


> lolz, yr quality, keep up the good work
> 
> "iT$ ovER "



Everyone else finds you both hilarious and revolting tbh ‘comrade’

where next for your politics?


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 25, 2020)

‘Due to his unwavering support for the Palestinian people’. Yep, that’s what it is


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 25, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> From the long-Bailey campaign trail
> 
> View attachment 199705



turns out it’s this geezer (Jack Thomas, Sefton CLP)



with the Quienelle saluting NK, and Miko Peled - you might  remember him from the ‘hit piece’


----------



## cantsin (Feb 25, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Oh I am
> 
> you’ve got nothing left. 12/12/2019 was the last roll of the dice for people like you.
> 
> All that time and effort for nothing



gotta laugh at this .... meanwhile first ever avowed socialist to run for POTUS is ahead in Dem nominations ( and guess what...the AS smears aren't far behind, due to his principled opposition to AIPAC )


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 25, 2020)

The Labour Party will survive, and maybe in 10 years time will be in government, but those who are _still_ whining about media smears etc have nowhere to manoeuvre.

the ‘witch hunt’ (lying, malicious Jews eh) hasn’t even started


----------



## cantsin (Feb 25, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> another minor league nobody.
> 
> *“Mehmood Mirza, vice chairman of the West Ham Labour Party, is alleged to have shared a cartoon showing a sticker with the words ‘Anti-Semitism’ placed across the mouth of a man who has a ‘Free Palestine’ band around his head. The image, posted onto Mr Mirza’s Facebook account, was created by Brazilian artists Carlos Latuff, who was previously accused of creating anti-Semitic content.”*
> 
> ...



that's your idea of a big hitter ? 
And the kind of alleged AS that's worrying you ?? 

ffs...


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 25, 2020)

cantsin said:


> gotta laugh at this .... meanwhile first ever avowed socialist to run for POTUS is ahead in Dem nominations ( and guess what...the AS smears aren't far behind, due to his principled opposition to AIPAC )



What’s  Sanders got to do with you (or me for that matter)?


----------



## cantsin (Feb 25, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> What’s  Sanders got to do with you (or me for that matter)?



everything


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 25, 2020)

You’re part of the Bernie campaign then? And I’m (for reasons in your own head) somehow horrified at the thought of him getting in?


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 25, 2020)

cantsin said:


> that's your idea of a big hitter ?
> And the kind of alleged AS that's worrying you ??
> 
> ffs...



Why are you still doing this?

I mean I can see the logic (if not the ethics) of defending antisemitism (eg you setting up this t thread) to boost JC’s chances of getting to be PM. But now? What’s the point?


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 25, 2020)

If we’re gonna discuss Sanders, the concern for any Jew is speak to isn’t his views on Israel (irrelevant as he won’t be president) but the inevitable anti-semitism that will form a large part of trumps campaign


----------



## cantsin (Feb 25, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Why are you still doing this?
> 
> I mean I can see the logic (if not the ethics) of defending antisemitism (eg you setting up this t thread) to boost JC’s chances of getting to be PM. But now? What’s the point?



you're making a fool of yourself here, will leave you to it


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 25, 2020)

cantsin said:


> you're making a fool of yourself here



Keep on telling yourself that


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 25, 2020)

This is what I don't get. Instead of going oh that one, just a minor player, that one, got kicked out, that one well I've never heard of her etc perhaps it's an idea to ponder why these people find a home in this political currant and how that same political currant can be made hostile for racists and conspiracy freaks without relying solely on after the event expulsions and disciplinaries.

Nobody here is talking about chucking baby out with bathwater and becoming nick cohen cheering liberals, it's about a left (or whatever) that _has good politics_


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 25, 2020)

Which btw won't happen when people pay lip service to opposing this stuff while minimising it and Defending The Party at all costs like some weird old CPGBers or something


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 25, 2020)

I can’t see any reason to minimise this stuff unless it’s stuff you support/have sympathy for.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 25, 2020)

I realise I've used sultana instead of tradition in my currant/current thing there btw


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 25, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> I can’t see any reason to minimise this stuff unless it’s stuff you support/have sympathy for.



I dunno tbf, obviously true in some cases but I think some people with sound politics have been sucked in to this strange place over last few years of constantly being on defensive against all comers which has led to this siege mentality that is hard to break


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 25, 2020)

Not that that is a good excuse though really


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 25, 2020)

Some people want to feel under siege. The validation I guess


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 25, 2020)

This thread is four years old - and there have been two GE losses in that time - and the same shit it began with is still being regurgitated.


----------



## cantsin (Feb 25, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> This is what I don't get. Instead of going oh that one, just a minor player, that one, got kicked out, that one well I've never heard of her etc perhaps it's an idea to ponder why these people find a home in this political currant and *how that same political currant can be made hostile for racists and conspiracy freaks* without relying solely on after the event expulsions and disciplinaries.
> 
> Nobody here is talking about chucking baby out with bathwater and becoming nick cohen cheering liberals, it's about a left (or whatever) that _has good politics_



ON a practical level, they're literally getting suspended / expelled / barred, as the original article under discussion states, clearly, how can you get more ' hostile' than that?

On a broader level, my only personal experience is 5 yrs of local CLP meets' where I've heard one twerp ( and this bloke is a serial twerp tbh ) casually claim ' Israel pulls US strings ' - he was shut up immediately and derisively / it was pointed out that US had just renewed it's $10bn p.a annual military aid comitments to Israel, ( for the usual petro-strategic reasons )  and was probably not expecting to have any strings pulled at that price.

It would be unimaginable for AS to rear it's head on any wider scale IRL, and whilst that might not be the same for each and every CLP, I bet it's not far off for the vast majority.

When it comes to online, of all the main shi*tty crank Twitter accounts, its seems there's only 2 or 3 left that claim to be in Labour, and will still use ' Zio Lobby' and dribble on constantly about LFI when not relevant etc, and they always seem to get told to f*ck off eventually.

Closed FB groups : this is where the real crank sh*t festersit seems, I don't get to see it first hand, and there's little any of us can do a political level - but they seem to be getting weeded out ( again, as per the article ) - but as I say, v difficult to get proactive , politically, with this lot.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 25, 2020)

cantsin said:


> ON a practical level, they're literally getting suspended / expelled / barred, as the original article under discussion states, clearly, how can you get more ' hostile' than that?
> 
> On a broader level, my only personal experience is 5 yrs of local CLP meets' where I've heard one twerp ( and this bloke is a serial twerp tbh ) casually claim ' Israel pulls US strings ' - he was shut up immediately and derisively / it was pointed out that US had just renewed it's $10bn p.a annual military aid comitments to Israel, ( for the usual petro-strategic reasons )  and was probably not expecting to have any strings pulled at that price.
> 
> ...



I think you missed my point. Rather than weeding out after the event with expulsions etc wouldn't it be an idea to try to understand why they felt at home there in the first place (although as it happens I disagree with your view that it's rare in the wild)


----------



## cantsin (Feb 25, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> I think you missed my point. Rather than weeding out after the event with expulsions etc wouldn't it be an idea to try to understand why they felt at home there in the first place (although as it happens I disagree with your view that it's rare in the wild)



wrongly or rightly, I've always had the same view on this, as per a few posts ago : 

" We've got the largest membership in Europe, and have attracted a fair few cranks and wrong un's into our ranks over the last 5 years due to Corbyn's unwavering support for the Palestinian people, and on the downside, cos of his and his cohorts reflexive anti US imperialism and the blindspots that creates"


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 25, 2020)

cantsin said:


> wrongly or rightly, I've always had the same view on this, as per a few posts ago :
> 
> " We've got the largest membership in Europe, and have attracted a fair few cranks and wrong un's into our ranks over the last 5 years due to Corbyn's unwavering support for the Palestinian people, and on the downside, cos of his and his cohorts reflexive anti US imperialism and the blindspots that creates"



If that logic held then labour would also be fighting the same battle with scientologists and survivalists and evangelical christians and jihadis and actual nazis as they are with the anti imperialist conspiracist antisemitic lot. But they aren't. Which should tell you labour doesn't feel hospitable to the former but does to the latter.


----------



## cantsin (Feb 25, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> If that logic held then labour would also be fighting the same battle with scientologists and survivalists and evangelical christians and jihadis and actual nazis as they are with the anti imperialist conspiracist antisemitic lot. But they aren't. Which should tell you labour doesn't feel hospitable to the former but does to the latter.





Proper Tidy said:


> If that logic held then labour would also be fighting the same battle with scientologists and survivalists and evangelical christians and jihadis and actual nazis as they are with the anti imperialist conspiracist antisemitic lot. But they aren't. Which should tell you labour doesn't feel hospitable to the former but does to the latter.



 am confused : why would / could  " Corbyn's unwavering support for the Palestinian people, and on the downside, cos of his and his cohorts reflexive anti US imperialism and the blindspots that creates" " attract Scientologists / survivalists " etc ?

it's attracted some Israel / Zionism fixated conspiracists, as no doubt did the influx of some of the post Occupy / Anon etc lot post 2011, and esp. post JC election 2015


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 25, 2020)

cantsin said:


> am confused : why would / could  " Corbyn's unwavering support for the Palestinian people, and on the downside, cos of his and his cohorts reflexive anti US imperialism and the blindspots that creates" " attract Scientologists / survivalists " etc ?
> 
> it's attracted some Israel / Zionism fixated conspiracists, as no doubt did the influx of some of the post Occupy / Anon etc lot post 2011, and esp. post JC election 2015



Sorry, should have been clearer. I meant the suggestion that the size of the membership makes this stuff inevitable. 

I'd agree on what you call reflexive anti US imperialism but shouldn't this lead to a wider review of the shit politics that is widespread on the left, particularly labour left


----------



## two sheds (Feb 25, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> I think you missed my point. Rather than weeding out after the event with expulsions etc wouldn't it be an idea to try to understand why they felt at home there in the first place (although as it happens I disagree with your view that it's rare in the wild)



I'm not sure how you'd do that without eradicating antisemitism within society as a whole tbh. I'd also imagine people could post up a string of examples of revolutionary socialists who've posted antisemitic views to 'prove' that revolutionary socialism was antisemitic. Doesn't necessarily make it true.

It needs to be looked at within how prevalent antisemitism is in society compared with how prevalent it is in the labour party and in the other parties/beliefs. I've also seen figures (can't remember where sorry) that suggest the number of people with antisemitic beliefs within labour is at a lower level now than when corbyn took over.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 25, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> errrrrr


You demanded to know what he/she thought of whoever. But a demand on you is something different. Have I got that right?


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 25, 2020)

TopCat said:


> You demanded to know what he/she thought of whoever. But a demand on you is something different. Have I got that right?



Your ‘ffs’ comment in response to my comment re Martinez is because you don’t know what you’re on about. Have I got that right?


----------



## TopCat (Feb 25, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Your ‘ffs’ comment in response to my comment re Martinez is because you don’t know what you’re on about. Have I got that right?


Sorry what are you on about? Is this some old beef you want to poke? Have you got a link so I can have an idea what you are going on about? 
You demand this and that but dont abide by the standards you set others.


----------



## belboid (Feb 25, 2020)

two sheds said:


> Looks to me like he was asking for answers and you were just sneering, hence his irritation.
> 
> 
> I meant the "Jew!" comment.


ffs.  This is why MadeInBedlam is now on ignore for me.  He just vomits this shit up time and time again and anyone disagreeing with him is a _massive _anti-semite.  Utterly pointless.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 25, 2020)

It is pure arse vomit


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 25, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Ffs



that one


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 25, 2020)

belboid said:


> ffs.  This is why MadeInBedlam is now on ignore for me.  He just vomits this shit up time and time again and anyone disagreeing with him is a _massive _anti-semite.  Utterly pointless.



oh noes

the rest of the world has moved on and some past-it Trot is still coming out with the same shit they were 4 years ago


----------



## TopCat (Feb 25, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> that one


I would imagine I have exclaimed ffs in response to your posts on a number of occasions.


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 25, 2020)

TopCat said:


> I would imagine I have exclaimed ffs in response to your posts on a number of occasions.



I’m sure you would. The arrow on the top of the quote box will handily direct you.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 25, 2020)

I just looked over the exchange. You relish a debating style that is akin to having shit wiped on you. 
Ffs was quite mild to be fair. I had you down as being a bit vulnerable so didn't really convey my contempt.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 25, 2020)

You remind me of poster Lee Japser. Same paint by numbers behaviour.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 25, 2020)

two sheds said:


> I'm not sure how you'd do that without eradicating antisemitism within society as a whole tbh. I'd also imagine people could post up a string of examples of revolutionary socialists who've posted antisemitic views to 'prove' that revolutionary socialism was antisemitic. Doesn't necessarily make it true.
> 
> It needs to be looked at within how prevalent antisemitism is in society compared with how prevalent it is in the labour party and in the other parties/beliefs. I've also seen figures (can't remember where sorry) that suggest the number of people with antisemitic beliefs within labour is at a lower level now than when corbyn took over.



But the antisemitism in labour is different to typical wider antisemitism. It's (broadly speaking) of different roots, and that comes from a political trend, or way of looking at the world or however you want to put it. 

The tories have a publicised problem with islamophobia. I doubt anybody here would deny that, and most would recognise that it flows from a political view and make up of a big chunk of the tory party, even though islamophobia is everywhere and that is the excuse the tories will trot out. So why can't people apply the same rationale to labour and the left. I don't understand.


----------



## 19force8 (Feb 25, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> belboid said:
> 
> 
> > lol
> ...


Now you show your true colours.

There was a stark choice last December between the possibility of a government that would care about minorities, about the poor, about the sick and disabled. A government that might actually have made a difference.

Instead we have a shit show ramping up racism, determined to drive forward the murderous policies of the last ten years.

Every decent person I know is miserable about this. Some have given up on politics (I hope not forever)

Meanwhile the Tories and the racists are glorying in Labour's defeat

And you're laughing out loud?

We see you Tory boy


----------



## two sheds (Feb 25, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> But the antisemitism in labour is different to typical wider antisemitism. It's (broadly speaking) of different roots, and that comes from a political trend, or way of looking at the world or however you want to put it.
> 
> The tories have a publicised problem with islamophobia. I doubt anybody here would deny that, and most would recognise that it flows from a political view and make up of a big chunk of the tory party, even though islamophobia is everywhere and that is the excuse the tories will trot out. So why can't people apply the same rationale to labour and the left. I don't understand.



Antisemitism in labour seems to me to be primarily a spillover from anti-Israeli government sentiment. Some of the accusations are valid (clearly with the more extreme wing merging into the worst sorts of conspiracy theory) and some not (accusations that any criticism of the Israeli government is antisemitic). Not sure how you change that aside from suspending/expelling people when they show themselves to be antisemitic.

Second paragraph: again though, most important surely is how prevalent it is. Islamophobia by several measures is more prevalent in the tory party than in society more widely so that would indeed be an excuse. That isn't true of antisemitism and labour so I don't think the comparison is valid. 

Who do you mean by labour 'and the left' by the way? (Not having a go, just not sure who you're referring to).


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 25, 2020)

19force8 said:


> (Edited to add) Tory boy




pathetic. Why are you still doing this? What’s the aim here?

where next for your politics?


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 25, 2020)

TopCat said:


> I just looked over the exchange. You relish a debating style that is akin to having shit wiped on you.
> Ffs was quite mild to be fair. I had you down as being a bit vulnerable so didn't really convey my contempt.


not persuaded that throwing insults is debate.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 25, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> pathetic. Why are you still doing this? What’s the aim here?


you hand it out but you don't like it


----------



## two sheds (Feb 25, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> not persuaded that throwing insults is debate.





Been on urban long have you?


----------



## 19force8 (Feb 25, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> pathetic. Why are you still doing this? What’s the aim here?
> 
> where next for your politics?


Why am I still doing this? Because I haven't given up hoping the world can be a better place.

What’s the aim here? Answered above.

where next for your politics? Campaigning to change the things I can't tolerate, giving what support I can to those fighting back or struggling.

Feel free to LOL at my pathetic efforts. You're going on ignore because I actually have a life.


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 25, 2020)

19force8 said:


> my pathetic efforts.



Enjoy your life


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 25, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> you hand it out but you don't like it



I’m bemused that an approach which has demonstrably failed is still being pursued

none of the deflection/minimising/guilt trips worked. Why still attempt them?


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 25, 2020)

TopCat said:


> I had you down as being a bit vulnerable



Quite. Another vote winner that one.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 25, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> I’m bemused that an approach which has demonstrably failed is still being pursued
> 
> none of the deflection/minimising/guilt trips worked. Why still attempt them?


i'm not. i am simply pointing out the fact that you'll happily be rude to other people but you aren't so happy taking it.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Feb 25, 2020)

19force8 said:


> Now you show your true colours.
> 
> There was a stark choice last December between the possibility of a government that would care about minorities, about the poor, about the sick and disabled. A government that might actually have made a difference.
> 
> ...



This is the state of Urban politics atm. Endless denunciations of the left and Labour whilst turning a blind eye to the barbarian ideologies of nativism and rightwing nationalism fuelling the rise of authoritarian, racist scum like Johnson, Trump and Le Pen.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 25, 2020)

Jeff Robinson said:


> This is the state of Urban politics atm. Endless denunciations of the left and Labour whilst turning a blind eye to the barbarian ideologies of nativism and rightwing nationalism fuelling the rise of authoritarian, racist scum like Johnson, Trump and Le Pen.


not fair to barbarians


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Feb 25, 2020)

I know quite a lot of people in the Labour Party. Not a one of them is anti-Semitic. Some of them are anti-Zionist and anti-Israel. Indeed anti-loads-of-stuff, probably far too much. But they never encounter anti-Semitism in our neck of the woods. That doesn’t mean none exists anywhere, but it is not prevalent, certainly not overt and is largely insignificant. When I look at websites such as Jewish Voice for Labour I don’t see evidence of anti-Semitism in the Labour Party. Quite the reverse. I see lots of evidence of anti-Zionism and lots of criticism of Israel and its influence. Also lots of criticism of the Party machine and of the Jewish Labour Movement. 

People post on here saying that JVL was set up by bad people. Well, I don’t know these people and can’t be bothered to do masses of research to find out. But can someone tell me what on JVL is anti-Semitic?


----------



## treelover (Feb 25, 2020)

19force8 said:


> Now you show your true colours.
> 
> *There was a stark choice last December between the possibility of a government that would care about minorities, about the poor, about the sick and disabled. A government that might actually have made a difference.*
> 
> ...





Interesting your positioning of who would be helped


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 25, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> i am simply pointing out the fact that you'll happily be rude to other people but you aren't so happy taking it.



this doesn’t work either. Come up with something new


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 25, 2020)

treelover said:


> Interesting your positioning of who would be helped



us disabled are obliged to have unthinking loyalty to labour, however bonkers and racist their politics are. That’s how it is when you’re vulnerable


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 25, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> this doesn’t work either. Come up with something new


it doesn't have to work for you. it simply is.


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 25, 2020)

Nice to see you’ve gone zen


----------



## 19force8 (Feb 25, 2020)

treelover said:


> Interesting your positioning of who would be helped


Hmm?


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 25, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> turns out it’s this geezer (Jack Thomas, Sefton CLP)
> 
> View attachment 199774
> 
> with the Quienelle saluting NK, and Miko Peled - you might  remember him from the ‘hit piece’



And here is Jack Thomas (Sefton CLP, ‘Israeli Lobby’ ranter at RLB) with some more NK goons, and Pete Gregson (also from the ‘hit piece’)


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 25, 2020)

Utter hostility towards antisemitism in evidence


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 25, 2020)

I suspect shit like this is fuelling such opinions...


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 25, 2020)

Rutita1 said:


> I suspect shit like this is fuelling such opinions...




whats some old bloke talking at the BOD got to with batshit antisemites going on about the influence of the ‘Israeli lobby’?


----------



## cantsin (Feb 25, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> whats some old bloke talking at the BOD got to with batshit antisemites going on about the influence of the ‘Israeli lobby’?



both older batshitty cranks, and hopefully not representative of wider communities on either side


----------



## toblerone3 (Feb 25, 2020)

Is there such a thing as the "Israeli lobby" and, if so, who is a member of it?


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Feb 25, 2020)

toblerone3 said:


> Is there such a thing as the "Israeli lobby" and, if so, who is a member of it?


There undoubtedly is, because all governments have “lobbies”, people whose job it is to push the agenda of their government in other countries, for business, strategic and other reasons. Some of these are above ground and open, others are secretive and subterranean. And some are extremely secretive, so that you wouldn’t necessarily know if they exist or not. And some may be unofficial or self-generating in some way. The Israeli government, or elements within it, certainly gets up to subterfuge around the globe, along with all the other governments. But they’re not going to tell the likes of us what they’re up to.


----------



## toblerone3 (Feb 25, 2020)

In the mid 1990s I was, for a short while, a gigging member of the Japanese lobby. My job was to produce a list of Labour MP constituencies with significant Japanese investment or ex-patriate populations.  This was in the period just before Blair et al got into power.


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 25, 2020)

cantsin said:


> both older batshitty cranks, and hopefully not representative of wider communities on either side



what communities would these be on ‘either side’?

How is the racist (jack Sefton) comparable to the Jewish bloke distressed by the thought of jew-hating prime minister?


----------



## teqniq (Feb 25, 2020)




----------



## 19force8 (Feb 26, 2020)

Labour elite clearly has an antisemitism problem:


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 26, 2020)

toblerone3 said:


> Is there such a thing as the "Israeli lobby" and, if so, who is a member of it?


The BoD are certainly seen as part of a network of such. They are also massive Tory party cheerleaders.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 26, 2020)

It's just very few people talk about the chinese lobby or the us lobby, even though clearly people do lobby on behalf of both. I saw that tom harwood knob doing a bit of us lobbying on telly this morning as it happens.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Feb 26, 2020)

toblerone3 said:


> Is there such a thing as the "Israeli lobby" and, if so, who is a member of it?


And another thing. There are organisations such as Labour Friends of Israel (and indeed Liberal Democrat Friends of Israel, Conservative Friends of Israel etc ) whose allegiance is made clear by the name. That doesn’t mean they are the creatures of the Israeli state, nor that there aren’t differences within those organisations. But if they had no effect there might not be so many such groups. Then there are bodies like the Board of Deputies or the Jewish Labour Movement, which claim to represent the broader Jewish community, but which always minimise or ignore anti-Zionist or secular views. The BoD, in particular, has friends in high places.


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 26, 2020)

19force8 said:


> Labour elite clearly has an antisemitism problem:







Rutita1 said:


> The BoD are certainly seen as part of a network of such. They are also massive Tory party cheerleaders.







Kevbad the Bad said:


> And another thing. There are organisations such as Labour Friends of Israel (and indeed Liberal Democrat Friends of Israel, Conservative Friends of Israel etc ) whose allegiance is made clear by the name. That doesn’t mean they are the creatures of the Israeli state, nor that there aren’t differences within those organisations. But if they had no effect there might not be so many such groups. Then there are bodies like the Board of Deputies or the Jewish Labour Movement, which claim to represent the broader Jewish community, but which always minimise or ignore anti-Zionist or secular views. The BoD, in particular, has friends in high places.



Do any of you ever stop to think how you look to the outside world?


----------



## lazythursday (Feb 26, 2020)

This is just impossible circularity. Talking about the influence of the Israeli lobby / LFOI / BoD does indeed make you look like an anti-semitic conspiracy theorist. And yet at the same time it is completely clear that right wing Jewish organisations [and the right of the party, and I'm sure the Israeli state] had a political interest in seeing this issue fester and balloon rather than being resolved. Even now, years later, it feels impossible to see through the mud of this and ascertain just how bad anti-semitism was/is in the party and to what extent it was ignored / misunderstood / agreed with by elements of the leadership. It so distresses me that we have likely lost this generational opportunity for the left because of some obsessives about one particular foreign conflict. And the whole thing has made it so much harder for a future Labour government to have an uncompromisingly pro-Palestianian position too. 

It's certainly been an education for me, as I didn't really get left-wing antisemitism at the beginning. Now I feel extremely sensitised to it. But I'm still conflicted about whether/how this whole shitshow could have been avoided given much of it playing out on social media and hence easily publicised and less easily dealt with. If it had been easily defused I think something else would have been found as the ideal wedge issue - maybe trans rights.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Feb 26, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Do any of you ever stop to think how you look to the outside world?


The outside world is a big place, with lots of different people with different outlooks. 

It is not an anti-Semitic conspiracy theory to say that Israel works covertly and overtly in its own interests, or what it thinks are its own interests. All governments do that. 

The only reason people are going on about this is that they have yet to see any evidence of widespread anti- semitism in the Labour Party. The issue has been used by Tories to attack Labour, and by the Labour right to attack the left, without clear evidence. That is the problem. 

Slagging people off because they disagree may make you feel better, or not, but it’s not an argument.


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 26, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> The outside world is a big place, with lots of different people with different outlooks.



What opinions do you think people would  have of the posts I quoted? Why do you think there is a widespread belief that labour/the left have an antisemitism problem?


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 26, 2020)

Btw the most obvious and crude intervention in UK politics on behalf of a foreign state in recent memory is arguably india & modi/bjp, certainly in context of labour party anyway. Whatsapp and that. Google has surprisingly few relevant results for indian lobby. Or indeed hindu lobby.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Feb 26, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Btw the most obvious and crude intervention in UK politics on behalf of a foreign state in recent memory is arguably india & modi/bjp, certainly in context of labour party anyway. Whatsapp and that. Google has surprisingly few relevant results for indian lobby. Or indeed hindu lobby.


But the media has been clogged up with allegations of Labour anti-Semitism. That’s the difference.


----------



## Chilli.s (Feb 26, 2020)

I find it a bit odd that the media chatter about all this has just disappeared after the election.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Feb 26, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> What opinions do you think people would  have of the posts I quoted? Why do you think there is a widespread belief that labour/the left have an antisemitism problem?


The widespread belief has been created by an inherently anti-Labour media. Jewish Voice for Labour hardly ever get any airtime. You may not like them, but their viewpoint should be heard. The slur against Labour has so often been that they are institutionally anti-Semitic, yet no-one ever manages to explain what this means. A lot of Jewish Labour members say they have never encountered anti-Semitism in the Party. Why should I not believe them?


----------



## two sheds (Feb 26, 2020)

Chilli.s said:


> I find it a bit odd that the media chatter about all this has just disappeared after the election.



Served its purpose intit, I'm sure it will resurface at a convenient time


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 26, 2020)

Chilli.s said:


> I find it a bit odd that the media chatter about all this has just disappeared after the election.


they've the memory of a goldfish


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 26, 2020)

Chilli.s said:


> I find it a bit odd that the media chatter about all this has just disappeared after the election.


have a quick search for it, there's a full page of results on google news for the last 20 hours alone

oh Veteran MP Steve McCabe to become chair of Labour Friends of Israel


----------



## kebabking (Feb 26, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> they've the memory of a goldfish



no, its merely that Labours' anti-semitism problem was 'a thing' when there was a reasonable, and immediate (however you define that) chance of them being in government - now neither of those things are true, so its less of 'a thing', and therefore gets less coverage - though the _hugely courageous_ way RLB stood up to that 'Israeli looby' loon the other day got some coverage....


----------



## brogdale (Feb 26, 2020)

Those political opponents of Corbyn-esque Labour prepared to weaponise the anti-semitism within the party also know that to continue with such high-profile attacks might provoke action that would undermine the chance of re-weaponising in 2024.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 26, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> But the media has been clogged up with allegations of Labour anti-Semitism. That’s the difference.



The difference is that one gets exceptionalised and relentlessly focused on and turned into a conspiracy and one doesn't, yes


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 26, 2020)

Bringing together JVL and ‘exceptionalism’ 



			https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/momentum-founder-jon-lansman-is-attacked-for-jewish-exceptionalism-by-leading-jvl-official-1.497258


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 26, 2020)

More on Jack Thomas (campaigning with Williamson). 

‘Jews in support of Jeremy’. This stuff is so transparent. Blacks for Trump I guess 



			https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/exclusive-activist-who-blamed-israel-lobby-for-corbyn-defeat-campaigned-against-labour-1.497277


----------



## Cid (Feb 26, 2020)

tbf I tend to swing towards lazythursady etc’s perspective on this... but when you’ve got RLB answering like she did above, and borderline cranks like kevbad not really thinking about what they’re saying... it doesn’t leave me hopeful. But I think we need a left wing Labour Party. Shit is just getting eroded away under the tories.


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 26, 2020)

Out of curiosity, how come Nandy (chair fo Labour friends of Palestine) comes in for the ‘Zionist lobby’ crap, but Barbara Keeley (member of Labour friends of Israel) doesn’t? I know Keeley is very much a ‘head down, stick to your brief’ type (of which I’m glad - she’s needed in her role), but it doesn’t take long to discover she’s in LFI.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Feb 26, 2020)

Cid said:


> tbf I tend to swing towards lazythursady etc’s perspective on this... but when you’ve got RLB answering like she did above, and borderline cranks like kevbad not really thinking about what they’re saying... it doesn’t leave me hopeful. But I think we need a left wing Labour Party. Shit is just getting eroded away under the tories.


I may be borderline but I ain’t no crank


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Feb 26, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> The difference is that one gets exceptionalised and relentlessly focused on and turned into a conspiracy and one doesn't, yes


At the risk of repeating myself, the accusations of anti-Semitism may well be partly an organised conspiracy, or entirely spontaneous and opportunistic, but either way largely groundless. People go on about it because they’re pissed off at 5 years of Johnson, and think that part of the reason Labour lost is because of all the smears.


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 26, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> At the risk of repeating myself, the accusations of anti-Semitism may well be partly an organised conspiracy, or entirely spontaneous and opportunistic, but either way largely groundless. People go on about it because they’re pissed off at 5 years of Johnson, and think that part of the reason Labour lost is because of all the smears.



Do you think that anyone reading this would think “oh yeah, it’s all bollocks, the Labour Party/labour left aren’t a bunch of nutters”?


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 26, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> At the risk of repeating myself, the accusations of anti-Semitism may well be partly an organised conspiracy, or entirely spontaneous and opportunistic, but either way largely groundless. People go on about it because they’re pissed off at 5 years of Johnson, and think that part of the reason Labour lost is because of all the smears.



Thing is mate you are saying it is largely groundless while also banging on about the israeli lobby and how the state of israel attempts to intervene in UK politics. When I commented that all sorts of interest groups lobby and lots of states intervene in the politics of other states, and gave a recent example of india, you said these weren't of the same concern and nobody banged on about india because nobody was accusing labour of being anti-indian (although actually that was exactly the intervention by modi/bjp supporters but by the by) before then banging on more about israel and potential conspiracies. 

Do you see the problem here pal or nah


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 26, 2020)

And for clarity, nobody sensible would deny that there is opportunism and factionalism and plain old red baiting around antisemitism but, and here is the key factor, it is because its a soft spot, an easy target. And it's an easy target because very clearly there is a problem with antisemitism - and with palestinian festishisation and israeli exceptionalism - on the left.

Its an open door so shut it, fucks sake


----------



## lazythursday (Feb 26, 2020)

If it was 'largely groundless' Kevbad the whole anti-semitism campaign would not have been so successful at discrediting Labour. It's the fact that there were genuine examples of antisemitism (on and offline, but perhaps mainly online) that made this so toxic. And then the endless denials that there was any problem whatsoever just added a whole load more fuel to the fire. 

It's quite possible to recognise that there was a smear campaign, that groups in and out of the party used this issue despicably, and also recognise that a small number of actual outright anti-semites / a larger number of unwitting, ignorant anti-semites and defensive denialists jumped up and down performing exactly the role that the media wanted..


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Feb 26, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Thing is mate you are saying it is largely groundless while also banging on about the israeli lobby and how the state of israel attempts to intervene in UK politics. When I commented that all sorts of interest groups lobby and lots of states intervene in the politics of other states, and gave a recent example of india, you said these weren't of the same concern and nobody banged on about india because nobody was accusing labour of being anti-indian (although actually that was exactly the intervention by modi/bjp supporters but by the by) before then banging on more about israel and potential conspiracies.
> 
> Do you see the problem here pal or nah


The problem is that the media were full of it, and they weren’t full of anti-Indian stuff. Can’t you see that, or nah


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 26, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> The problem is that the media were full of it, and they weren’t full of anti-Indian stuff. Can’t you see that, or nah



Fucking hell, incredible really


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Feb 26, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> And for clarity, nobody sensible would deny that there is opportunism and factionalism and plain old red baiting around antisemitism but, and here is the key factor, it is because its a soft spot, an easy target. And it's an easy target because very clearly there is a problem with antisemitism - and with palestinian festishisation and israeli exceptionalism - on the left.
> 
> Its an open door so shut it, fucks sake


It’s an easy target because Corbyn and his advisors handled it so badly, not because the Labour Party is anti-Semitic as an organisation, and because the media (again) is so biased. Not just the Tory press but our friends in the Guardian as well.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 26, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> It’s an easy target because Corbyn and his advisors handled it so badly, not because the Labour Party is anti-Semitic as an organisation, and because the media (again) is so biased. Not just the Tory press but our friends in the Guardian as well.



You're a dickhead, fuck off back to the canary


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Feb 26, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> You're a dickhead, fuck off back to the canary


Thanks for that insight.


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 26, 2020)

Why do you think you’re getting the responses you’re getting Kevbad the Bad?


----------



## lazythursday (Feb 26, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> It’s an easy target because Corbyn and his advisors handled it so badly, not because the Labour Party is anti-Semitic as an organisation, and because the media (again) is so biased. Not just the Tory press but our friends in the Guardian as well.


Of course the leadership handled it terribly and of course the media was biased. But is that really the whole story? At the absolute minimum, there were an awful lot of people sharing antisemitic memes and tropes - often without necessarily realising what they were doing, as in the case of the infamous mural. And then telling Jewish people that they were simply wrong that there was any antisemitism. I'm not Jewish but I know how the whole farrago would have made me feel if I was, and it saddens me that there still remains a lack of empathy on this from large parts of the left. It doesn't matter that some of it was smears, and media confected, there were fucking appalling examples like actual Labour councillors sharing holocaust denial material.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Feb 26, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Why do you think you’re getting the responses you’re getting Kevbad the Bad?


There’s a lot closed minds out there (obviously setting myself up for the same accusation)


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Feb 26, 2020)

lazythursday said:


> Of course the leadership handled it terribly and of course the media was biased. But is that really the whole story? At the absolute minimum, there were an awful lot of people sharing antisemitic memes and tropes - often without necessarily realising what they were doing, as in the case of the infamous mural. And then telling Jewish people that they were simply wrong that there was any antisemitism. I'm not Jewish but I know how the whole farrago would have made me feel if I was, and it saddens me that there still remains a lack of empathy on this from large parts of the left. It doesn't matter that some of it was smears, and media confected, there were fucking appalling examples like actual Labour councillors sharing holocaust denial material.


Yet Jewish friends and acquaintances tell me different.


----------



## William of Walworth (Feb 26, 2020)

I've mentioned this before and ages ago, but there's a certain proportion of "Labour equals antisemitism" stuff relating to people who are not Labour Party members at all, or who just pretend to be LP on line, or, in some cases, were LP once but have been expelled.

Just saying.

But I broadly agree with a lot of lazythursday 's recent posts more generally.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Feb 27, 2020)

William of Walworth said:


> I've mentioned this before and ages ago, but there's a certain proportion of "Labour equals antisemitism" stuff relating to people who are not Labour Party members at all, or who just pretend to be LP on line, or, in some cases, were LP once but have been expelled.
> 
> Just saying.
> 
> But I broadly agree with a lot of lazythursday 's recent posts more generally.


Fair enough. But i’ve yet to be given answers to my questions. Just how is the Labour Party institutionally anti-Semitic? M.p’s, peers, councillors, CLP officials etc up and down the country are of Jewish heritage. Some pRo-Israel ones, and right-wingers, see anti-semitism everywhere. Anti-Zionist ones don’t.

Jewish Voice for Labour are accused of all manner of stuff, yet no-one can point out anything anti-Semitic on their website.

Yes, some people (a tiny handful), are dead nasty and most of those have left or been expelled, incidentally with the full support of groups such as JVL. But a lot more are subjected to an unfair disciplinary procedure. Only recently Jo Bird was standing for the NEC and was temporarily suspended. She is Jewish and anti-Zionist. Until enough fuss was made her candidature was suspended too. That kind of thing happens all the time. If anything the LP machinery is institutionally anti-anti-Zionist.


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 27, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> .
> 
> Yes, some people (a tiny handful), are dead nasty and most of those have left or been expelled, incidentally with the full support of groups such as JVL.



why are you making statements which you know full well to be untrue?

you lying little shit





__





						jvl chris williamson - Google Search
					





					www.google.co.uk
				








__





						jvl jacky walker - Google Search
					





					www.google.co.uk


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Feb 27, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> why are you making statements which you know full well to be untrue?
> 
> you lying little shit
> 
> ...


Arseholes, bastards, fucking cunts and pricks! See, I can do that too.

On a more serious note, all you are doing is showing us google searches which give links to articles about the likes of Williamson and Walker, about both of whom there are varying opinions. Not evidence.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 27, 2020)

There are varying opinions about everybody you fucking shit weasel


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 27, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> the likes of Williamson and Walker, about both of whom there are varying opinions. Not evidence.



Do you think that there is any place in the Labour Party for

1) Walker and Williamson
2” the likes of” Walker and Williamson 

It isn’t true, is it, that JVL supported the removal of walker and Williamson? In fact they did they very opposite, didn’t they?

when then are you claiming that JVL ‘fully supported’ their removal from the Labour Party, when you know this isn’t the case?


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Feb 27, 2020)

Who said the art of conversation was dead?

Sorry, wanker.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Feb 27, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Do you think that there is any place in the Labour Party for
> 
> 1) Walker and Williamson
> 2” the likes of” Walker and Williamson
> ...


I’m not saying JVL supported their removal. I think there could be a place for them in Labour. You obviously don’t, but plenty of others do. It’s not as straightforward as you sat


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 27, 2020)

Your agenda and method is transparent Kevbad the Bad 

Why you are continuing doing the same thing (‘protecting‘ antisemitism) that not only 1) is repulsive, and 2)  has failed 

You’re not the only poster on here that needs to ask themselves that question. 

Your faction lost.


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 27, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Your faction lost.



And if you really can’t stomach it you can always follow the example of the likes of graeber and the arch-remainers and fuck off. 

You’re not wanted. You never will be


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Feb 27, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> And if you really can’t stomach it you can always follow the example of the likes of graeber and the arch-remainers and fuck off.
> 
> You’re not wanted. You never will be


I don’t have a faction. I’m not an anti-Semite, nor do I seek to protect them. I haven’t lost anything. But I don’t share the simplistic one-dimensional view which is sometimes on display here, yours included.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 27, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> I don’t have a faction. I’m not an anti-Semite, nor do I seek to protect them. I haven’t lost anything. But I don’t share the simplistic one-dimensional view which is sometimes on display here, yours included.



Is Jackie Walker an antisemite?


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Feb 27, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Is Jackie Walker an antisemite?


I have never read anything she has written or said which is anti-Semitic. I would give a black, Jewish, anti-racist woman activist the benefit of the doubt unless I saw unequivocal evidence to the contrary, rather than invective.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 27, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> I have never read anything she has written or said which is anti-Semitic. I would give a black, Jewish, anti-racist woman activist the benefit of the doubt unless I saw unequivocal evidence to the contrary, rather than invective.



So you don't think the nation of islam conspiracy theory that jewish financiers were behind the slave trade is antisemitic


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 27, 2020)

What about the mural, was that antisemitic


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Feb 27, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> So you don't think the nation of islam conspiracy theory that jewish financiers were behind the slave trade is antisemitic


Jackie Walker is not a supporter/devotee of the Nation of Islam. I can’t speak on her behalf, but she has reflected on her own ancestry as black and Jewish. You can choose to view her comments entirely negatively, or in a more nuanced way, but that is your choice and does not make her an anti-Semite.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 27, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> Jackie Walker is not a supporter/devotee of the Nation of Islam. I can’t speak on her behalf, but she has reflected on her own ancestry as black and Jewish. You can choose to view her comments entirely negatively, or in a more nuanced way, but that is your choice and does not make her an anti-Semite.



So that's a no then. What about the mural


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Feb 27, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> What about the mural, was that antisemitic


Maybe, but what’s that got to do with Walker, or the JVL? You can criticize Corbyn for not looking at it properly, maybe, but that’s all. The person who painted it and whoever commissioned it have questions to answer,for sure.


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 27, 2020)

Who did you use to post as Kevbad the Bad ?


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 27, 2020)

What made you interested in the hip, exciting social media platform that is Urban75?


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 27, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> Maybe



Maybe. 





> but what’s that got to do with Walker, or the JVL?



Just trying to find your line. Turns out it's pretty far back. Maybe. 

What about Livingstone claiming hitler supported zionism, was that a fair reflection of pre war nazi policy and the haavara agreement or was it antisemitic


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Feb 27, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> What made you interested in the hip, exciting social media platform that is Urban75?


It wasn’t you


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 27, 2020)

Maybe a mural of some old jews (you can tell they are jews from the noses and hair you see) in suits playing a board game on the backs of black slaves with masonic imagery in the background is antisemitic. Maybe. It's borderline isn't it.


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 27, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> It wasn’t you



Theres some Pickman's model pass-aggro energy there.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Feb 27, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Maybe.
> 
> View attachment 199994
> 
> ...


I only said maybe because I hadn’t seen it for ages and i’d forgotten. As for Livingstone, yes that was a stupid thing to say. Not the first either. There may have been some agreement made between the Nazis and Jews trying desparately to escape a frightening future, but that neither makes those Jews Nazi collaborators, nor those Nazis Zionists.


----------



## Cid (Feb 27, 2020)

Fuck me kev, look within yourself. Look at what you're writing... think about how racism manifests - not always through obvious phrases and ideology, but through background acceptance of language and stereotypes. 

More than MadeInBedlam or Proper Tidy I'd love to find excuses and have a genuine belief in a core of the labour left to continue the more positive aspects of 2015-17. But no. RLB's responses, your stuff on this thread. It shows how bad some people are at acknowledging a specific failure, at acknowledging some legitimate criticisms, and a deep-seated toxicity. I'm not going to start thinking about the actions of the Israeli state in Palestine as something wonderful. But fuck, I lived in China for a year without batting an eyelid. Look at your allies. Look at the pictures, at the language. At the dominance of 'from the river to the sea' rhetoric. Especially when compared to class politics, to rights politics etc. I want a Labour left. It will never have legitimacy until people like you are willing to acknowledge these failings.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 27, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Theres some Pickman's model pass-aggro energy there.


There's some mib bullshit here. It's not 'pass-aggro' to observe the fact you hand it out but you are unhappy taking it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 27, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad catch yourself on


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 27, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Kevbad the Bad



You coward


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 27, 2020)

cantsin said:


> So on a day when you'd have thought the PLP might be aflame with attacks on Cameron, Osborne and their fellow 1. % ers, instead Progress's 8 point plan to combat alleged LP anti semitism seems to be a much bigger preoccupation for many of the usual suspects .
> 
> Don't know if anyone's looked into this deeper than me ( wldnt be hard ) , but so far the evidence I've seen mentioned supporting the idea of a wave of LP anti semitism is 2 / 3 weirdos on Twitter spouting  crap, and a resignation from / subsequent investigation of Ox Uni Lab Club that never seems to throw up anything concrete / otherwise .
> 
> ...



Four years ago this


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 27, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> You coward


Bravely hurling insults from the safety of your keyboard I see


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 27, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Bravely hurling insults from the safety of your keyboard I see



I’ve just spent the day bossing about senior NHS management. Like I give a fuck


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 27, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> I’ve just spent the day bossing about senior NHS management. Like I give a fuck


You started this little exchange with a dig at me so obvs you do. But tell yourself these lies, maybe you'll believe them.


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 28, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> you hand it out but you don't like it [etc]



Sure. I’m ‘seen’ (you fucking weirdos)



Pickman's model said:


> the zionist entity
> 
> the zionist entity



You’re a ponce innit


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 28, 2020)

Angry man. Angry manner.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 28, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> You’re a ponce innit


In the sense of being effeminate? 

You're a bore


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 28, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> In the sense of being effeminate?



In the sense of being pretentious. The whole affectation thing.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 28, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> In the sense of being pretentious. The whole affectation thing.


like you affecting to be someone who can debate when recent experience shows you offer nothing more than insults and ad hominems.

it's boring.


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 28, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> like you affecting to be someone who can debate when recent experience shows you offer nothing more than insults and ad hominems.



That’s the stuff. You take it easy.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 28, 2020)

You are a horrible cunt.


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 28, 2020)

TopCat said:


> II had you down as being a bit vulnerable



Did you really? You failure of a human being


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 28, 2020)

Do you like em vulnerable comrade delta?


----------



## Humberto (Feb 28, 2020)

calm down


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 28, 2020)

Humberto said:


> calm down



Do you have anything to contribute to the thread?


----------



## Humberto (Feb 28, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Do you have anything to contribute to the thread?



don't see why i have to


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 28, 2020)

You sad fantasist wankers 

It’s all that’s left


----------



## Humberto (Feb 28, 2020)

saaad


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 28, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Do you have anything to contribute to the thread?






Humberto said:


> I wish they would more arduously address this.They must hear their own party, or become its enemy. Everyone one has enemies. We must decide who they are. God has an enemy. Some people (not here more specifically) need to stand up and be counted. Why shouldn't they? If you resist 'evil' (or however you want to describe it) it will run away. That is the space where we all breathe.
> 
> They knew some things in the past that some don't know now. For instance: life is more than about self-preservation. Many still know that of course.
> 
> ...



Perhaps it’s best if you just stick to shitposting


----------



## Humberto (Feb 28, 2020)

meh. You do your little vendetta if it makes you happy.


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 28, 2020)

Humberto said:


> meh. You do your little vendetta if it makes you happy.



You popped up in this convo fella. 

Enjoy your cosplay


----------



## Humberto (Feb 28, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> You popped up in this convo fella.
> 
> Enjoy your cosplay



yes to tell you to calm down.


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 28, 2020)

Humberto said:


> yes to tell you to calm down.



As one does


----------



## TopCat (Feb 28, 2020)

A little ball of impotent fury. What motivates you to be the worst person you can be?


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 28, 2020)

TopCat said:


> A little ball of impotent fury.



Erm, how’s your politics going?


----------



## cantsin (Mar 1, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Erm, how’s your politics going?



can't answer for Topcat, but gotta say, was reading this this morning, and reflecting on the fact that these are pretty unprecedented times for the left( in post WW2 terms) ... so ... "pretty good " would be my answer , how's  yours  ? 









						'America v socialism': conservatives rage against the left and plot new red scare
					

At the Trump faithful’s annual get-together, there was fresh fearmongering about Democrats in general and Bernie Sanders in particular




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 1, 2020)

cantsin said:


> how's  yours  ?



From strength to strength.

but then we know no socialist saviour will rescue us.  This benefits us.


----------



## treelover (Mar 1, 2020)

cantsin said:


> can't answer for Topcat, but gotta say, was reading this this morning, and reflecting on the fact that these are pretty unprecedented times for the left( in post WW2 terms) ... so ... "pretty good " would be my answer , how's  yours  ?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You think the far left is in a period of success?


----------



## cantsin (Mar 1, 2020)

treelover said:


> You think the far left is in a period of success?



Didn’t mention ‘ far ‘ .., or ‘ success ‘ ? 

But re: left ‘ : in govt in Portugal, in coalition in Spain, on rapid rise in Germany ( Der Linke ) , in semi permanent insurgency on streets of France, and, for the first time in modern history, starting to shape anti Cons/ Republican agenda in US ( Bernie )  - even here in UK, after resounding election defeat, Keir Starmer is having to regurgitate Corbyn’s dem socialist agenda in the hope of winning Lab

it seems beyond question that, in particular,  18 - 35 yr olds  response to ever growing job / housing / climate insecurity is only headed one way at present.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Mar 1, 2020)

cantsin said:


> Didn’t mention ‘ far ‘ .., or ‘ success ‘ ?
> 
> But re: left ‘ : in govt in Portugal, in coalition in Spain, on rapid rise in Germany ( Der Linke ) , in semi permanent insurgency on streets of France, and, for the first time in modern history, starting to shape anti Cons/ Republican agenda in US ( Bernie )  - even here in UK, after resounding election defeat, Keir Starmer is having to regurgitate Corbyn’s dem socialist agenda in the hope of winning Lab
> 
> it seems beyond question that, in particular,  18 - 35 yr olds  response to ever growing job / housing / climate insecurity is only headed one way at present.



When the racist boomer scum generation die out we will win.


----------



## two sheds (Mar 1, 2020)

I'm not sure it hasn't always been like that tbf. People seem to get further right wing as they get older


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Mar 1, 2020)

two sheds said:


> I'm not sure it hasn't always been like that tbf. People seem to get further right wing as they get older


Oh no they fucking don’t


----------



## two sheds (Mar 1, 2020)

Oh yes we fucking do

not some of us clearly


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 1, 2020)

Christ.


----------



## two sheds (Mar 1, 2020)

Jesus.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 1, 2020)

Son


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 1, 2020)

two sheds said:


> Jesus.



Wasn't in response to you btw. Obviously there is a general trend towards people voting tory as they get older, plenty of historical data to support and it stands to reason as people accrue capital, favour economic stability to preserve pension wealth etc, and therefore become more adverse to political change and obviously this doesn't apply to everybody on an individual level with plenty of contrary examples. I agree with you


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 2, 2020)

cantsin said:


> can't answer for Topcat, but gotta say, was reading this this morning, and reflecting on the fact that these are *pretty unprecedented times for the left(* in post WW2 terms) ... so ... "pretty good " would be my answer , how's  yours  ?


(my emphasis)
I mean I take issue with both your claim and your focus on electoralism in 3,504, but the bit I bolded is the real problem you are explicitly linking your politics not to the working class but to "the left".


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 3, 2020)

Even Lammy has got the (rootless cosmopolitan) memo. 



			https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/haringey-councillor-requests-clp-drop-clause-on-zero-tolerance-of-antisemitism-from-motion-on-jew-ha-1.497540


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 4, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> I have never read anything (Jackie Walker) has written or said which is anti-Semitic. I would give a black, Jewish, anti-racist woman activist the benefit of the doubt unless I saw unequivocal evidence to the contrary, rather than invective.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 4, 2020)

Interesting the need to have holocaust denial or mitigation on the table isn't it. Afaik there are no challenges to lots of other historical events like I dunno the highland clearances, yet there are those who's politics leads them to a place where it would be beneficial to be able to minimise or completely exclude the holocaust.


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 4, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> to minimise or completely exclude the holocaust.



In order ‘support’ the Palestinians/vulnerable disabled people.


----------



## CNT36 (Mar 4, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Interesting the need to have holocaust denial or mitigation on the table isn't it. Afaik there are no challenges to lots of other historical events like I dunno the highland clearances, yet there are those who's politics leads them to a place where it would be beneficial to be able to minimise or completely exclude the holocaust.





> IT has taken him three years, but one of Scotland's most outspoken writers has finally finished his book ''exposing'' the Highland clearances as a myth, a claim which is now fuelling the biggest controversy of his career.
> 
> Michael Fry unveils his argument in the Scottish Review of Books in today's Sunday Herald, ahead of the July publication of Wild Scots, Four Hundred Years Of Highland History.
> 
> His claims have already been criticised by leading Scots academic Tom Devine, who fears the revisionist tract will lead to a "war" even more explosive than the debate on sectarianism.











						Author: Now I can prove clearances were a myth Revisionist historian compared to Holocaust denier for claiming notorious evictions were 'well-meaning'
					

IT has taken him three years, but one of Scotland's most outspoken writers has finally finished his book ''exposing'' the Highland clearances as a…




					www.heraldscotland.com


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 4, 2020)

CNT36 said:


> Author: Now I can prove clearances were a myth Revisionist historian compared to Holocaust denier for claiming notorious evictions were 'well-meaning'
> 
> 
> IT has taken him three years, but one of Scotland's most outspoken writers has finally finished his book ''exposing'' the Highland clearances as a…
> ...



From 2005. 

Disgusting of course. How often do you see this Iteration of ‘myth busting’ within/around established political parties?


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 4, 2020)

CNT36 said:


> Author: Now I can prove clearances were a myth Revisionist historian compared to Holocaust denier for claiming notorious evictions were 'well-meaning'
> 
> 
> IT has taken him three years, but one of Scotland's most outspoken writers has finally finished his book ''exposing'' the Highland clearances as a…
> ...



Haha. 

Actually a good example though, cos from that article it's clear Fry has arrived at this desire to contradict an established and documented historical event for political reasons (says he's an ex tory candidate)


----------



## CNT36 (Mar 4, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> From 2005.
> 
> Disgusting of course. How often do you see this Iteration of ‘myth busting’ within/around established political parties?


As much as anywhere I'd imagine maybe more. Probably quite common among Tory candidates.


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 4, 2020)

CNT36 said:


> As much as anywhere I'd imagine maybe more. Probably quite common among Tory candidates.



Liked but not liked as it were. 

Just reading this now - not impressed by the ‘uneducated hairdresser’ vibe, but interesting about the school curriculum and the clearances









						Uncovering the facts of the Scottish clearances
					

An entire peasant class was removed to make way for sheep. But this was not confined to the Highlands – it occurred the length and breadth of the country.




					www.newstatesman.com


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 4, 2020)

Anyway what I'm (probably clumsily) getting at is that the wish or need to deny this stuff comes from a wish or need to justify a political outlook.

Tankie types will try and minimise, excuse, or deny loads of stuff, like on twitter right now you will find people insisting north korea is a great place to live or that gaddafi was 100% a great lad or whatever. And white nationalists & supremacists and people who name their dogs adolf and eva will mostly minimise, excuse, or deny the holocaust because its politically easier to do that than it is to embrace it (although some hard faced types do).

So it says something really fucking grim about an apparently emancipatory politics which is about social justice and liberation that the need to minimise, excuse, or deny the holocaust becomes so attractive, or perhaps necessary. Yet for a section or current of the left - not all of it by any means of course, it's specifically the keffiyeh hands off iran types and then not all of them - it has become attractive or necessary to either reduce the event of the holocaust itself ('it is possible that it did not happen in exactly the way we were taught') or to reduce its historical importance ('what about this other horrible stain on history which I am going to call a holocaust to be a prick' like walker's african holocaust comments). So for anybody who recognises some of their own politics in the politics of these types surely this is enough to reflect on your political outlook rather than the minimising stuff, oh its just random cranks and I've never heard it in my CLP although we discuss palestine every month for some reason


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 6, 2020)

Turns out Peter Gregson (see above) had his own powerful friends in the meeja


----------



## SpineyNorman (Mar 6, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> View attachment 200541


Fucking hell, that's about as plain and on the table as it can get


----------



## 8ball (Mar 6, 2020)

Jeff Robinson said:


> When the racist boomer scum generation die out we will win.



<shudders>


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 6, 2020)

Ken Loach, I mean he's done some shit but still, sad to see


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 9, 2020)

Make of this what you will 









						Robert Peston and anti-semitism: ITV political editor lecture report
					

Robert Peston and anti-semitism: ITV political editor rounds on Seamus Milne whilst delivering annual Hugh Cudlip journalism lecture at City University.




					www.pressgazette.co.uk


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 10, 2020)

And on and on these awful awful smears go 



			https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/local-labour-chair-thanks-ex-member-who-was-expelled-for-sickening-comments-about-jews-1.497883


----------



## belboid (Mar 10, 2020)

Has tory boy MiB posted up any of the apologies the JC has had to publish for talking drivel yet?  Or mentioned the 'massive file' full of anti-semites, that turned out to contain a single person?  

Somehow I doubt it.


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 10, 2020)

Bless - belboid bravely whining behind the block. 

Some people never know how badly they fucked it up do they.


----------



## CNT36 (Mar 10, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Make of this what you will
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He's making quite a leap there. Milne could think Peston is biased for any number of reasons based on facts or otherwise and nothing Peston says points to it being down to his identity.


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 10, 2020)

What makes me a Tory belboid? I know you’re reading my posts. 

Apart from l all the hasbara I do. Obvs.


----------



## TopCat (Mar 10, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Bless - belboid bravely whining behind the block.
> 
> Some people never know how badly they fucked it up do they.


You dont. You attack the left as you are of the right. Transparent tory boy


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 10, 2020)

Oh come on this is bollocks. Disagree with MiB by all means but this "tory boy" stuff is baseless.


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 10, 2020)

CNT36 said:


> He's making quite a leap there. Milne could think Peston is biased for any number of reasons based on facts or otherwise and nothing Peston says points to it being down to his identity.



I didn’t take that as his (main) point, But rather the (depressing) politicisation of Jewish ‘identity’ that occurred over the last few years.

Idiots such as belboid have happily strengthened (Jewish) identity politics with their clownery. Good work lads


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 10, 2020)

TopCat said:


> You dont. You attack the left as you are of the right. Transparent tory boy



Obsessed with money I am too.


----------



## CNT36 (Mar 10, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> I didn’t take that as his (main) point, But rather the (depressing) politicisation of Jewish ‘identity’ that occurred over the last few years.
> 
> Idiots such as belboid have happily strengthened (Jewish) identity politics with their clownery. Good work lads


Yeah, I should have quoted that bit.

The "they would say that their Jewish" type shit was all over Facebook when I indulged in such things.


----------



## belboid (Mar 10, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> Oh come on this is bollocks. Disagree with MiB by all means but this "tory boy" stuff is baseless.


he cheered the tory victory, on this very thread, cos he thought it meant 'game over' for those who disagree with him, and the awful IHRA etc.  Tory is as Tory does.


(and, I take it that's a 'no' - he wont recognise or accept any instance when those he quotes have been proven to talk shite)


----------



## TopCat (Mar 10, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Obsessed with money I am too.


This habit of attacking your self with bigoted remarks then claiming such expressed bigotry proves your various points is transparently irrational and mad. 

Have you had any doctors telling you similar? Are you taking your meds?


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 10, 2020)

TopCat said:


> You dont. You attack the left as you are of the right. Transparent tory boy



Funny, right-wingers don’t hide behind this ‘I don’t have jews for being Jews, it’s because they are plotting against Stalin’ crap. 

Plenty here attack the (sacred) Left. How many do you accuse of being tories TopCat?  Just us wandering types?


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 10, 2020)

belboid said:


> he cheered the tory victory, on this very thread, cos he thought it meant 'game over' for those who disagree with him, and the awful IHRA etc.  Tory is as Tory does.



When did I do that?


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 10, 2020)

TopCat said:


> This habit of attacking your self with bigoted remarks
> 
> Are you taking your meds?


----------



## TopCat (Mar 10, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> Oh come on this is bollocks. Disagree with MiB by all means but this "tory boy" stuff is baseless.


He wanted the Tories to win the election and celebrated when they did.


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 10, 2020)

Are 
You 
Taking 
Your
Meds.


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 10, 2020)

TopCat said:


> He wanted the Tories to win the election and celebrated when they did.



You are a cockroach


----------



## TopCat (Mar 10, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Funny, right-wingers don’t hide behind this ‘I don’t have jews for being Jews, it’s because they are plotting against Stalin’ crap.
> 
> Plenty here attack the (sacred) Left. How many do you accuse of being tories TopCat?  Just us wandering types?


I throw tory insults at tories. I'm fairly well known for it.
Have you always voted Tory?


----------



## TopCat (Mar 10, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> You are a cockroach


Did you learn that from the Tutsi's?


----------



## TopCat (Mar 10, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Are
> You
> Taking
> Your
> Meds.


I guess not.


----------



## bimble (Mar 10, 2020)

TopCat said:


> This habit of attacking your self with bigoted remarks then claiming such expressed bigotry proves your various points is transparently irrational and mad.
> 
> Have you had any doctors telling you similar? Are you taking your meds?


This is way out of line . And maybe you just don’t get Jewish irony .


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 10, 2020)

belboid said:


> he cheered the tory victory, on this very thread, cos he thought it meant 'game over' for those who disagree with him, and the awful IHRA etc.  Tory is as Tory does.


Sorry belboid I like you but that is an absolutely bollocks reading. There was no cheering on of the Tory victory, it was a post arguing that the push of socialists within the LP to drive it's politics was over.


TopCat said:


> Have you had any doctors telling you similar? Are you taking your meds?


Well out of order!


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 10, 2020)

TopCat said:


> He wanted the Tories to win the election and celebrated when they did.


Did he? Where? I've not seen MiB say any such thing.


----------



## CNT36 (Mar 10, 2020)

bimble said:


> This is way out of line . And maybe you just don’t get Jewish irony .


What is Jewish about it?


----------



## CNT36 (Mar 10, 2020)

TopCat said:


> This habit of attacking your self with bigoted remarks then claiming such expressed bigotry proves your various points is transparently irrational and mad.
> 
> Have you had any doctors telling you similar? Are you taking your meds?


Cunt.


----------



## belboid (Mar 10, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> Sorry belboid I like you but that is absolutely bollocks reading. There was no cheering on of the Tory victory, it was a post arguing that the push of socialists within the LP to drive it's politics was over.


I refer to this one.  His joy at the defeat of Labour activists and MP's. (just before he took to posting 'evidence' from the Daily Express)



MadeInBedlam said:


> you’ve got nothing left. 12/12/2019 was the last roll of the dice for people like you.
> 
> All that time and effort for nothing


----------



## belboid (Mar 10, 2020)

bimble said:


> And maybe you just don’t get Jewish irony .


Jewish Labour councillor Jo Bird was suspended for less than that.  And _certain posters _fully supported that move.


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 10, 2020)

belboid said:


> I refer to this one.  His joy at the defeat of Labour activists and MP's.


But that's still not cheering on a Tory victory is it. It's a statement that (in MiB's view) your political strategy has failed.


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 10, 2020)

TopCat said:


> I throw tory insults at tories. I'm fairly well known for it.
> Have you always voted Tory?



Never as it happens. 

I voted labour last year as I always have done. One day after a three week admission in hospital (on MH grounds). I delayed the admission in order to use as little resources as possible (that’s our reality - even if it isn’t yours). I ended up being told (kindly, if firmly) that I _must_ be admitted (I was walking the streets unwashed for weeks, toothpaste in my beard, stinking like shit). During my hospital stay I worked with a (labour member) mate of mine to ensure (as best as possible) that the other patients knew about their right to vote and would have support to do so (did you or belboid do so?). 

I attended a hustings at a uni during my admission . Took the opportunity  that I had to raise deaths and and human rights abuses of disabled people due to austerity. Asked the candidates if they supported prosecution of ministers over DWP deaths. Got thanked by a lad in wheelchair next to me. Took the time (and made the effort) to meet local LP activists, they (generally) were decent and curious to us understand the AS issue. Bumped into more labour door knockers, have them my support. Voted labour, feeling physically sick, but on basis that wankers like you are less important than a functioning health/care/social security system (you may notice I post about that a fair bit on here). 

It will be the last time I vote labour. The scum on this thread made sure that a lot of people didn’t vote labour (and won’t again).


----------



## belboid (Mar 10, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> But that's still not cheering on a Tory victory is it. It's a statement that (in MiB's view) your political strategy has failed.


And he is cheering that failure, a far-right Tory win being a price worth paying.

Hardly the first single issue obsessive to fall to such misthinking, a few of the anti-trans campaigners (sorry 'gender critical') have done the same.


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 10, 2020)

TopCat said:


> I guess not.



 Can’t think why your life has turned out to be so lonely and bitter


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 10, 2020)

belboid said:


> And he is cheering that failure, a far-right Tory win being a price worth paying.


Sorry I don't accept that reading at all.
One can think the end the socialists/anarchists for Labour is a good thing without being a Tory.

EDIT: And while that conversation between the two of you was spiky I think MiBs central question - where now for socialists within the LP is one that you and others _do_ need to ask.


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 10, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> Sorry I don't accept that reading at all.
> One can think the end the socialists/anarchists for Labour is a good thing without being a Tory.



And even if it’s good or bad, it’s a reality. 

Hence belboid and TopCat are reduced to “you’re a Tory” and “have you taken your meds”

From grown people.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 10, 2020)

Fucking hell, if you criticise any aspect of the left you're a tory. On fucking urban


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 10, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Did you learn that from the Tutsi's?



Kafka. He was a perv (like you) and all


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 10, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Fucking hell, if you criticise any aspect of the left you're a tory



Or you have untreated mental health problems


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 10, 2020)

Fwiw I've always taken mib's 'your time is over' attitude as being about the anti imperialism lots of flags in twitter bio left that has been influential if not dominant in corbynism not the left as a whole. And I'd wager I'm right. And again fwiw while labour's battering was clearly a massive disappointment, if any good comes of it then it will be cos those cunts are put back in their box


----------



## belboid (Mar 10, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> And even if it’s good or bad, it’s a reality.
> 
> Hence belboid and TopCat are reduced to “you’re a Tory” and “have you taken your meds”
> 
> From grown people.


since I've had to take you off ignore, would you care to comment on the apologies from the JC? Or the 'massive' file case that turned out to be a single person?  Or find better sources for your nonsense than the Daily fucking Express?  Naah, you'll just go along with, and cheer, right-wing character assassination and being a complete hypocrite about it.


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 10, 2020)

belboid said:


> since I've had to take you off ignore, would you care to comment on the apologies from the JC?



I don’t work for the JC (or lee harpin) believe it or not? 

You’re welcome to start a thread about the problems with the JC. I can have a moan about Hadashot on there


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 10, 2020)

You belong to a tiny (and now impotent) political alignment belboid. No one needs to convince you of anything. You’re welcome to ignore the thread if it’s causing you this much unchannelable rage


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 10, 2020)

belboid said:


> since I've had to take you off ignore, would you care to comment on the apologies from the JC? Or the 'massive' file case that turned out to be a single person?  Or find better sources for your nonsense than the Daily fucking Express?  Naah, you'll just go along with, and cheer, right-wing character assassination and being a complete hypocrite about it.



This is your politics isn’t it belboid?



(That’s from the Mirror, Tory bastard paper)


----------



## Serge Forward (Mar 10, 2020)

Really piss poor attacks on MIB here. belboid and TopCat  you should be fucking ashamed of yourselves. By the way, I think the Labour Party has always been a load of anti working class arse, basically the leftish faction of the capitalist class. Does that make me a Tory as well?


----------



## belboid (Mar 10, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> Sorry I don't accept that reading at all.
> One can think the end the socialists/anarchists for Labour is a good thing without being a Tory.


If any anarchist celebrated n he same way, I'd tell them they were a fucking moron cheering a tory victory as well.  Illusions in reformism aren't beaten by a right-wing electoral victory. A 'victory' that will see a worsening of w-c living conditions and further attacks on being able to express solidarity are a defeat for our side, even if we aren't crying over the loss of the likes of Chris Williamson.

But that isn't what he was cheering at all, was it?  He was cheering simply the defeat of people the right have labelled as anti-semitic on the base of a single sodding facebook post,  he is cheering the victory of those who want to outlaw BDS and saying Israel is an apartheid state. 

At best a buffoon, at worst in idiot for the tories.


----------



## belboid (Mar 10, 2020)

Serge Forward said:


> Really piss poor attacks on MIB here. belboid and TopCat  you should be fucking ashamed of yourselves. By the way, I think the Labour Party has always been a load of anti working class arse, basically the leftish faction of the capitalist class. Does that make me a Tory as well?


see above.  Nothing wrong with being anti-labour, it's _how _you are that is in question.


----------



## belboid (Mar 10, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> You belong to a tiny (and now impotent) political alignment belboid. No one needs to convince you of anything. You’re welcome to ignore the thread if it’s causing you this much unchannelable rage


It's this kind of  dishonesty that makes you totally ignoreable.  You are happy, delighted, to post shit up from right-wing sources, but when they're shown to be shite, you go 'nothing to do with me'.  You're just piss and wind, projecting your own frustrations.

Bye.


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 10, 2020)

belboid said:


> But that isn't what he was cheering at all, was it?  He was cheering simply the defeat of people the right have labelled as anti-semitic on the base of a single sodding facebook post,  he is cheering the victory of those who want to outlaw BDS and saying Israel is an apartheid state.


Like I said I don't accept that reading, and I'm not the only one.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 10, 2020)

Serge Forward said:


> Really piss poor attacks on MIB here. belboid and TopCat  you should be fucking ashamed of yourselves. By the way, I think the Labour Party has always been a load of anti working class arse, basically the leftish faction of the capitalist class. Does that make me a Tory as well?


The good cop to the tories' bad one


----------



## belboid (Mar 10, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> Like I said I don't accept that reading, and I'm not the only one.


well, you are very generous.


----------



## TopCat (Mar 10, 2020)

Serge Forward said:


> Really piss poor attacks on MIB here. belboid and TopCat  you should be fucking ashamed of yourselves. By the way, I think the Labour Party has always been a load of anti working class arse, basically the leftish faction of the capitalist class. Does that make me a Tory as well?


A wanker perhaps? A div? I dont know you enough to tell.


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 10, 2020)

Mad gone PC is it. 



Pickman's model said:


> The good cop


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Mar 10, 2020)

TopCat said:


> This habit of attacking your self with bigoted remarks then claiming such expressed bigotry proves your various points is transparently irrational and mad.
> 
> Have you had any doctors telling you similar? Are you taking your meds?


This isn't on.


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 10, 2020)

But it does a reflect a _certain_ political tradition 









						State of Madness: Psychiatry, Literature, and Dissent After Stalin
					

Towards the end of the 1960s, rumours began to spread that nonconformist citizens of the USSR were being diagnosed with mental illnesses and confined to psychiatric hospitals...




					www.cam.ac.uk


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 10, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> But it does a reflect a _certain_ political tradition
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Is this why weirdos like Corbyn so much?


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 10, 2020)

Bloomsbury75


----------



## Serge Forward (Mar 10, 2020)

TopCat said:


> A wanker perhaps? A div? I dont know you enough to tell.


Well, I think I've got you figured from your recent posts. Happy to be proven wrong though. Whatever, your and belboid's recent comments were fucking rank.


----------



## William of Walworth (Mar 10, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> But it does a reflect a _certain_ political tradition
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's a serious historical paper ..... no problem .... 



> Is this why weirdos like Corbyn so much?



... but what's Corbyn, or (most) of his supporters got to do with the subject of it?


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 10, 2020)

William of Walworth said:


> That's a serious historical paper ..... no problem ....
> 
> 
> 
> ... but what's Corbyn, or (most) of his supporters got to do with the subject of it?



Corbynite antisemtism and Poltical
Psychiatry share many of the same roots


----------



## William of Walworth (Mar 10, 2020)

I'm not going to argue the point about antisemitism in the Labour Party - what antisemitism there has been has been an utter disgrace 

But the way you referenced Corbyn up there made it read more like an accusdation that he's a Stalinist and a supporter of the use of mental health "diagnoses" to lock people up. It happened for sure -- as I said that's a good and serious paper -- but have you got any evidence that Corbyn ever expressed support for it?


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 10, 2020)

William of Walworth said:


> but have you got any evidence that Corbyn ever expressed support for it?



but have you actually read my posts or just imagined what I said.


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 10, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Is this why weirdos like Corbyn so much?



Is a comment on his supporters, and the political coalition he is part of.

eg Andrew Murray (trade unionist) - Wikipedia


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 10, 2020)

The vulnerable window lickers need to take their meds 









						George Galloway has no respect for disability
					

The Respect MP's comment shows him to be unfit to represent disabled people and reveals the difficulty of transforming perceptions of disability




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 10, 2020)

Serge Forward said:


> Well, I think I've got you figured from your recent posts. Happy to be proven wrong though. Whatever, your and belboid's recent comments were fucking rank.



the whole thread is grim.

Hence it’s necessity


----------



## William of Walworth (Mar 11, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> but have you actually read my posts or just imagined what I said.



My specific point above stands. That was exactly what your post above implied/looked like.


----------



## gentlegreen (Apr 8, 2020)




----------



## paddywac22 (Apr 8, 2020)

cantsin said:


> So on a day when you'd have thought the PLP might be aflame with attacks on Cameron, Osborne and their fellow 1. % ers, instead Progress's 8 point plan to combat alleged LP anti semitism seems to be a much bigger preoccupation for many of the usual suspects .
> 
> Don't know if anyone's looked into this deeper than me ( wldnt be hard ) , but so far the evidence I've seen mentioned supporting the idea of a wave of LP anti semitism is 2 / 3 weirdos on Twitter spouting  crap, and a resignation from / subsequent investigation of Ox Uni Lab Club that never seems to throw up anything concrete / otherwise .
> 
> ...


I agree with you. I have never seen solid evidence of undeniable full force antisemitism. What can be simpler than naming and shaming? This was a ruse to bring Corbyn down. Labours policies were never discussed in mainstream media and UKIP under Gerald Batten was totally blocked by the mainstream media.


----------



## bimble (Apr 8, 2020)

oh just fuck off.


----------



## paddywac22 (Apr 8, 2020)

I listened very carefully to the TV and radio stations over the past 2 or 3 years. I specifically focused upon the UK modus of reporting the alleged antisemitism in the Labour party. Did anyone notice that UKIP under Gerald Batten instantly disappeared from the mainstream media? literally overnight!!! It does not matter if you like or hate UKIP my point is the power of the MSM in refusing to report/mention them ever again from a give date. So I say, an MSM with this power can easily set the agenda to take Corbyns socialist party down. It is impossible to block Labour, if they could they would. 
Did I mention WMDs?? Ooops?? Anyway, regards antisemitism - not once did I hear or see one single MSM station/outlet report an actual solid case of antisemitism. Just as they never report on David Lammy with his racist incitements > FACT. This guy should be in prison. 
Can anyone show me a case in the form of this example >>> "Labour MP says JEWS are ......................." Then report the actual occurrence. Its not rocket science. They report cases of Tommy Robinson and many others who literally were arrested and jailed???? for "saying stuff" !!!


----------



## paddywac22 (Apr 8, 2020)

bimble said:


> oh just fuck off.


Who are you telling to "fuck off"


----------



## bimble (Apr 8, 2020)

you.


----------



## redsquirrel (Apr 8, 2020)

gentlegreen said:


> <snipped>


Shit that cartoon undoubtably is but in what way is it anti-semitic?


----------



## Serge Forward (Apr 8, 2020)

paddywac22 said:


> I listened very carefully to the TV and radio stations over the past 2 or 3 years. I specifically focused upon the UK modus of reporting the alleged antisemitism in the Labour party. Did anyone notice that UKIP under Gerald Batten instantly disappeared from the mainstream media? literally overnight!!! It does not matter if you like or hate UKIP my point is the power of the MSM in refusing to report/mention them ever again from a give date. So I say, an MSM with this power can easily set the agenda to take Corbyns socialist party down. It is impossible to block Labour, if they could they would.
> Did I mention WMDs?? Ooops?? Anyway, regards antisemitism - not once did I hear or see one single MSM station/outlet report an actual solid case of antisemitism. Just as they never report on David Lammy with his racist incitements > FACT. This guy should be in prison.
> Can anyone show me a case in the form of this example >>> "Labour MP says JEWS are ......................." Then report the actual occurrence. Its not rocket science. They report cases of Tommy Robinson and many others who literally were arrested and jailed???? for "saying stuff" !!!


Fuck off.


----------



## paddywac22 (Apr 8, 2020)

Serge Forward said:


> Fuck off.


Hello Sir.. I bid you good tidings in these troubled times. Pray tell me why your are such an obnoxious bastard? Hast thou fallen out the wrong side of your pram?


----------



## TopCat (Apr 8, 2020)

paddywac22 said:


> Who are you telling to "fuck off"


She told you to fuck off you right wing shit.


----------



## paddywac22 (Apr 8, 2020)

I am a new member to this forum and the first comment to me is "FUCK OFF". 
So, is this a discussion forum or a pool for foul mouth mini nerds?


----------



## paddywac22 (Apr 8, 2020)

TopCat said:


> She told you to fuck off you right wing shit.


Oh, thanks for your assistance. Please, if you may be so bold, can you show why and how you deduce I am right wing? the "shit" bit is of no consequence. Thanks. If you need help just ask.


----------



## bimble (Apr 8, 2020)

paddywac22 said:


> a pool for foul mouth mini nerds?


Unnervingly accurate.


----------



## paddywac22 (Apr 8, 2020)

bimble said:


> Unnervingly accurate.


OK, thanks for the early warning. I do not have to waste my time with you and the other one spouting bile. Cheers for that. You have a good day now.. move along now, move along.


----------



## TopCat (Apr 8, 2020)

paddywac22 said:


> Oh, thanks for your assistance. Please, if you may be so bold, can you show why and how you deduce I am right wing? the "shit" bit is of no consequence. Thanks. If you need help just ask.


Your tommeh support babble gave you away. Charity shop Stone Island Shite.


----------



## TopCat (Apr 8, 2020)

paddywac22 said:


> I am a new member to this forum and the first comment to me is "FUCK OFF".
> So, is this a discussion forum or a pool for foul mouth mini nerds?


Why are you still here?


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Apr 8, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> Shit that cartoon undoubtably is but in what way is it anti-semitic?



the caricature of Miliband does have a number of anti-Semitic features - the big nose, the hunched shoulders and the ketchup dripping from the sandwich looking like blood etc.


----------



## Serge Forward (Apr 8, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> Shit that cartoon undoubtably is but in what way is it anti-semitic?


I'm guessing it relates to the whole "baconsandwichgate" episode of his cack-handedness with a bacon butty.


----------



## gentlegreen (Apr 8, 2020)

Milliband wasn't just another upper middle-class  politician wrestling in the traditional way with popular food items, he was someone of Jewish heritage eating something non-kosher.
Perhaps I'm overthinking it because I'm nominally "vegan" and have moral issues around what I eat ...


----------



## Shechemite (Apr 8, 2020)

paddywac22 said:


> I listened very carefully to the TV and radio stations over the past 2 or 3 years. I specifically focused upon the UK modus of reporting the alleged antisemitism in the Labour party. Did anyone notice that UKIP under Gerald Batten instantly disappeared from the mainstream media? literally overnight!!! It does not matter if you like or hate UKIP my point is the power of the MSM in refusing to report/mention them ever again from a give date. So I say, an MSM with this power can easily set the agenda to take Corbyns socialist party down. It is impossible to block Labour, if they could they would.
> Did I mention WMDs?? Ooops?? Anyway, regards antisemitism - not once did I hear or see one single MSM station/outlet report an actual solid case of antisemitism. Just as they never report on David Lammy with his racist incitements > FACT. This guy should be in prison.
> Can anyone show me a case in the form of this example >>> "Labour MP says JEWS are ......................." Then report the actual occurrence. Its not rocket science. They report cases of Tommy Robinson and many others who literally were arrested and jailed???? for "saying stuff" !!!



this thread


----------



## Shechemite (Apr 8, 2020)

worth noting that our recently departed warrior against ZOG is using the same themes as others have in this thread:

“I’ve never witnessed it”
“Ah but they didn’t say ‘Jews’”
“It’s just MSM SMEAARS!”


----------



## Shechemite (Apr 8, 2020)

He’s (thankfully) not in the LP anymore, but Chris Williamson is continuing to be his charming self.


----------



## oryx (Apr 8, 2020)

Jeff Robinson said:


> the caricature of Miliband does have a number of anti-Semitic features - the big nose, the hunched shoulders and the ketchup dripping from the sandwich looking like blood etc.


I thought there was a lot of dog-whistle anti-Semitism stuff about Miliband, perhaps most notably the Daily Mail piece about his father being disloyal to the country.


----------



## cantsin (Apr 8, 2020)

paddywac22 said:


> I listened very carefully to the TV and radio stations over the past 2 or 3 years. I specifically focused upon the UK modus of reporting the alleged antisemitism in the Labour party. Did anyone notice that UKIP under Gerald Batten instantly disappeared from the mainstream media? literally overnight!!! It does not matter if you like or hate UKIP my point is the power of the MSM in refusing to report/mention them ever again from a give date. So I say, an MSM with this power can easily set the agenda to take Corbyns socialist party down. It is impossible to block Labour, if they could they would.
> Did I mention WMDs?? Ooops?? Anyway, regards antisemitism - not once did I hear or see one single MSM station/outlet report an actual solid case of antisemitism. Just as they never report on David Lammy with his racist incitements > FACT. This guy should be in prison.
> Can anyone show me a case in the form of this example >>> "Labour MP says JEWS are ......................." Then report the actual occurrence. Its not rocket science. They report cases of Tommy Robinson and many others who literally were arrested and jailed???? for "saying stuff" !!!



sensible / useful book end to this thread , the Corbyn yrs, the world etc

thanks (goes off to commit hari kari )


----------



## CNT36 (Apr 8, 2020)

oryx said:


> I thought there was a lot of dog-whistle anti-Semitism stuff about Miliband, perhaps most notably the Daily Mail piece about his father being disloyal to the country.


He HATED this country!!!!!!!!


----------



## belboid (Apr 8, 2020)

oryx said:


> I thought there was a lot of dog-whistle anti-Semitism stuff about Miliband, perhaps most notably the Daily Mail piece about his father being disloyal to the country.


the first time Labour = anti-semites got an airing as well. After Miliband actually condemned Israel's latest invasion of Gaza it started up.  Maureen Lipman tore up her party card for the first time.


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Apr 8, 2020)

cantsin said:


> So on a day when you'd have thought the PLP might be aflame with attacks on Cameron, Osborne and their fellow 1. % ers, instead Progress's 8 point plan to combat alleged LP anti semitism seems to be a much bigger preoccupation for many of the usual suspects .
> 
> Don't know if anyone's looked into this deeper than me ( wldnt be hard ) , but so far the evidence I've seen mentioned supporting the idea of a wave of LP anti semitism is 2 / 3 weirdos on Twitter spouting  crap, and a resignation from / subsequent investigation of Ox Uni Lab Club that never seems to throw up anything concrete / otherwise .
> 
> ...


Sadly no it isn’t 

it’s a conflation of

1) genuine Zionists wanting to suppress criticism of Israel’s treatment of Palestinians

2) the Labour Right weaponising the above to put the Left on the defensive.

very sad: and I expected nothing of Starmer hence I’m not disappointed. Wonder how long it will take naive Labour Party members who voted for this creep to realise they’ve been mugged? serves them right, except for it affects others too.


----------



## two sheds (Apr 8, 2020)

plus 3,600+ posts on this thread giving an average of more than 2 posts a day for 4 years (just missed the anniversary  ) pushing 'labour & anti-semitism' to the top of the New Posts Urban consciousness 

"must all be anti-semites after all then"


----------



## Shechemite (Apr 8, 2020)

two sheds said:


> "must all be anti-semites after all then"



no, but there is strange obsession with ‘disproving’ Antisemitism. As you allude to, this didn’t exactly make the LP seem less Antisemitic. And as I said above, it has been a gift for actual Zionists


----------



## Shechemite (Apr 8, 2020)

The whole thing is so fucking depressing


----------



## two sheds (Apr 8, 2020)

It is, particularly seeing as how the Yougov surveys seem to show that antisemitism is (a) actually less in the labour party than society more widely and particularly less than racism in the tory party and (b) has decreased since corbyn took office. 

I'm not all that keen on Nandy but I though she was right when she said (as I recall) that labour's problem was with a few high-profile anti-semites who weren't dealt with properly which made it look like there was a problem with rank-and-file labour members which just wasn't true.


----------



## William of Walworth (Apr 8, 2020)

Guardian headline said:
			
		

> *Jewish leaders praise Keir Starmer for pledges on Labour antisemitism *


Full story here

Not really sure yet what to make of this  -- what do other Urbans think?


----------



## Cloo (Apr 8, 2020)

So today the Jewish Chronicle went into liquidation after nearly 180 years of operation - I found out because it was trending on Twitter.  The Jewish Chronicle to go into liquidation Most of the first tweets about it were people braying about how it was a nasty Zionist rag, viciously anti-Corbyn (and it was, tbf - the last editor Stephen Pollard had taken it down a horrible, paranoid, right-wing path). Although I was not a fan of its politics I found it rather gross people making the JC about them and their politics and ignoring what its loss might mean to individuals, non-politically, as a community resource keeping people in touch with what was going around the country and world.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 8, 2020)

I haven't read anything about that happening today Cloo I won't condone any nonsense 'braying' however given how much the JC has had to pay out in legal costs & compensation over the few years it's been on my radar  for the drivel/libel they have published I can't say I am surprised tbh.


----------



## Cloo (Apr 8, 2020)

Rutita1 said:


> I haven't read anything about that happening today Cloo I won't condone any nonsense 'braying' however given how much the JC has had to pay out in legal costs & compensation over the few years it's been on my radar  for the drivel/libel they have published I can't say I am surprised tbh.


The editor was an arse and really did target people unnecessarily - sad he squandered JCs money and energy on this stuff so this potential community asset is lost. Saw one good tweet saying people should save their ire for Pollard, not the JC.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 8, 2020)

Cloo said:


> The editor was an arse and really did target people unnecessarily - sad he squandered JCs money and energy on this stuff so this potential community asset is lost. Saw one good tweet saying people should save their ire for Pollard, not the JC.



That's a fair point for sure. Equally, the JC hasn't run off the back and decisions of just one person and just like with other papers, the people that contribute  to it are also seen as 'partly' responsible because of their participation/collusion.


----------



## cantsin (Apr 9, 2020)

Cloo said:


> The editor was an arse and really did target people unnecessarily - sad he squandered JCs money and energy on this stuff so this potential community asset is lost. Saw one good tweet saying people should save their ire for Pollard, not the JC.



Pollard and Lee Harpin have a lot to answer for


----------



## fakeplasticgirl (Apr 9, 2020)

William of Walworth said:


> Full story here
> 
> Not really sure yet what to make of this  -- what do other Urbans think?


Sounds... good?


----------



## ska invita (Apr 10, 2020)

Cloo said:


> ignoring what its loss might mean to individuals, non-politically,


Is there such a thing?
I get your point re its loss as a community resource, but even then 'apolitical' community coverage is placed within the context of other overtly political content, and becomes deeply politicised by association. That's not just an unintended consequence either, that's part of creating a politically coherent "Jewish community".


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Apr 10, 2020)

Cloo said:


> So today the Jewish Chronicle went into liquidation after nearly 180 years of operation - I found out because it was trending on Twitter.  The Jewish Chronicle to go into liquidation Most of the first tweets about it were people braying about how it was a nasty Zionist rag, viciously anti-Corbyn (and it was, tbf - the last editor Stephen Pollard had taken it down a horrible, paranoid, right-wing path). Although I was not a fan of its politics I found it rather gross people making the JC about them and their politics and ignoring what its loss might mean to individuals, non-politically, as a community resource keeping people in touch with what was going around the country and world.



As a Jew who feels 100% alienated from publications like the Jewish Chronicle, I couldn't care less about its demise. I can't see the racist, rightwing, reactionary garbage it pumps out as anything other than detrimental to jews and everyone else. I used to read and enjoy 'Jewish Socialist' many years ago.


----------



## mauvais (Apr 11, 2020)

This is... "interesting"


----------



## teqniq (Apr 11, 2020)

Looks like complete malicious sabotage to me.


----------



## Shechemite (Apr 11, 2020)

Definitely makes the LP look less toxic and mental this


----------



## Proper Tidy (Apr 11, 2020)

I think that last bullet point ('die in a fire') was targeted at max shanley


----------



## sleaterkinney (Apr 11, 2020)

It’s just another attempt to deflect the accusations of anti-semitism.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Apr 11, 2020)

I mean, pretending there wasn't an internal war with the party bureaucracy doing everything it could to undermine the pro-corbyn faction (always a minority) including cynical exploitation of antisemitism to the detriment of the overall wellbeing of british jews is deeply dishonest, just as its deeply dishonest to pretend there isn't a massive toxic streak of antisemitism in the left. So really the above post is just as cunty as the weirdos who scream conspiracy and bang on about the lobby


----------



## sleaterkinney (Apr 11, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> I mean, pretending there wasn't an internal war with the party bureaucracy doing everything it could to undermine the pro-corbyn faction (always a minority) including cynical exploitation of antisemitism to the detriment of the overall wellbeing of british jews is deeply dishonest, just as its deeply dishonest to pretend there isn't a massive toxic streak of antisemitism in the left. So really the above post is just as cunty as the weirdos who scream conspiracy and bang on about the lobby


What now?


----------



## sleaterkinney (Apr 11, 2020)

> cynical exploitation of antisemitism to the detriment of the overall wellbeing of british jews


Complete bullshit.


----------



## Shechemite (Apr 12, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> max shanley



?


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Apr 12, 2020)

Ironically (if that’s the right word) the JCs demise means it will be a it harder to trAck the activities of the nefarious Community Security Trust. I say nefarious not because  it plays a role defending Jews from anti-semitism, which is admirable. Rather, it is nefarious because in order to do so the CST has struck a Faustian bargain with the Met Police in particular, running off the books infiltration operations in part on the Mets behalf.


----------



## bimble (Apr 12, 2020)

The cst have black ops type spies infiltrating organisations on behalf of the met in order to get the police onside is that what you’re saying  Larry O'Hara ?


----------



## bimble (Apr 12, 2020)

Same report that they’re binning does have this bit in it as well, which is obvs not being picked out by the people it’s probably intended for.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Apr 12, 2020)

bimble said:


> Same report that they’re binning does have this bit in it as well, which is obvs not being picked out by the people it’s probably intended for.
> 
> View attachment 206230



Which makes the report even more of a liability for the anti-Corbynites - it doesn’t deny anti-Semitism in the party, but it finds that their faction were the ones who primarily sabotaged its investigation! That’s not the narrative thats supposed to emerge...


----------



## bimble (Apr 12, 2020)

Does it Jeff Robinson ? I dunno. Can you explain how the anti-corb lot sabotaged the investigation of antisemitism cases - Do you mean they hid evidence of it or downplayed it or gave him and his team treacherous advice? Honestly don’t get what you mean. 
All the bits I’ve seen just prove (shock surprise!) that the centrists hated the corbynites but they don’t say what you are suggesting.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Apr 12, 2020)

bimble said:


> Does it Jeff Robinson ? I dunno. Can you explain how the anti-corb lot sabotaged the investigation of antisemitism cases - Do you mean they hid evidence of it or downplayed it or gave him and his team treacherous advice? Honestly don’t get what you mean.
> All the bits I’ve seen just prove (shock surprise!) that the centrists hated the corbynites but they don’t say what you are suggesting.



The report states that the party bureaucracy failed to act upon or deal with reports of antisemitism and failed to make the political leaders of the party aware of the scale. The only motivation for this is so that those political leaders are then accused of failing to take it seriously or deal with it. I've no idea if the report is accurate, although it chimes with what I would have expected. See:


This shouldn't be a mutually exclusive position to also thinking the left (specifically the anti imperialist left from which the then political leadership of labour was mostly drawn) did and does have a problem with antisemitism. That's why the internal opposition (a majority of the bureaucracy and elected politicians) saw their opportunity in it, one which they exploited at the expense of the perceived safety and security jewish people feel. Plague on both their houses tbh


----------



## teqniq (Apr 12, 2020)

You have to ask why


----------



## bimble (Apr 12, 2020)

Canary Williamson and followers are acting like here’s proof it was a zionist plot all along. They didn’t read it presumably.


----------



## teqniq (Apr 12, 2020)

Williamson can fuck the fuck off.


----------



## Shechemite (Apr 12, 2020)

teqniq said:


> Williamson can fuck the fuck off.



Shurely not comrade! 









						Jeremy Corbyn defends ally Chris Williamson against anti-semitism claims
					

Jeremy Corbyn has defended Labour backbencher Chris Williamson against accusations that he is anti-semitic.




					www.politicshome.com


----------



## teqniq (Apr 12, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Shurely not comrade!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm not sure why he did that tbh. Misguided loyalty? Maybe. Having read Bob from Brockley's post on Williamson, antisemitism is part of a rather unpleasant list.


----------



## Mr Moose (Apr 12, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> The report states that the party bureaucracy failed to act upon or deal with reports of antisemitism and failed to make the political leaders of the party aware of the scale. The only motivation for this is so that those political leaders are then accused of failing to take it seriously or deal with it. I've no idea if the report is accurate, although it chimes with what I would have expected. See:
> 
> View attachment 206240
> This shouldn't be a mutually exclusive position to also thinking the left (specifically the anti imperialist left from which the then political leadership of labour was mostly drawn) did and does have a problem with antisemitism. That's why the internal opposition (a majority of the bureaucracy and elected politicians) saw their opportunity in it, one which they exploited at the expense of the perceived safety and security jewish people feel. Plague on both their houses tbh



I don’t doubt there was some shady shit from these snakes (and that should be aired) but the idea that they could hide the scale of the issue is a bit challenging. The leadership merely needed (prompted by vicious headlines) to look at Twitter to see what certain factions were up to. The line that (despite continual scandal) we relied totally on the word of people we always suspected were undermining us, is going to be hard to take far.

But Labour Party members have a right to know what people whose wages were paid by their subs were up to and how any attempts to undermine the leadership were carried out.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Apr 12, 2020)

Mr Moose said:


> I don’t doubt there was some shady shit from these snakes (and that should be aired) but the idea that they could hide the scale of the issue is a bit challenging. The leadership merely needed (prompted by vicious headlines) to look at Twitter to see what certain factions were up to. The line that (despite continual scandal) we relied totally on the word of people we always suspected were undermining us, is going to be hard to take far.
> 
> But Labour Party members have a right to know what people whose wages were paid by their subs were up to and how any attempts to undermine the leadership were carried out.



Yeah agree that you have to be wilfully blind to not see the conspiracism and antisemitism of a strand of corbyn support, zio and all that, the gallowayites. Same lot who were obsessed with skrpil. 

But in the specifics of it - how many cases reported, how many resulted in disciplinary/expulsion, how quickly etc - then misleading data from the officials will compound with that wilful blindness and the siege mentality defensiveness which is how you get the dismissal and minimisation and we're dealing with the small number of cases stuff. Probably, I dunno. None of them come out of it looking good tbf


----------



## Knotted (Apr 12, 2020)

What is the scale of the problem? I've seen plenty of evidence of it online but that doesn't tell me very much at all about the scale of the problem, just that it exists.

By the way I doubt Starmer is going to be able to wave a magic wand and get rid of it. I've always thought the real problem was people ignoring it, or not even seeing it for what it is.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Apr 12, 2020)

bimble said:


> Same report that they’re binning does have this bit in it as well, which is obvs not being picked out by the people it’s probably intended for.
> 
> View attachment 206230


Not at all, it’s not denying there was a problem, it’s about deflecting the blame.


----------



## agricola (Apr 12, 2020)

Whatever the lawyers or even leadership say, I really cannot see how the EHRC don't now get hold of this document given its clear relevance to the inquiry its running (either as evidence of the then leaderships efforts to dissemble or as bad character stuff for the other side).


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 12, 2020)

I was expecting to just have the usual cynical "well I already knew it was being weaponised etc" reaction but I must say the extent and degree of what they were doing surprised me. Not that it will make a difference now because they succeeded obv.


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Apr 12, 2020)

Bimble you have got it in one! And shows how utterly wrong fascists are when they see Met Police bigwigs attending BDBJ functions as evidence they are under the Board’s thumb. Whereas it is more gratitude for services rendered (by the CST).


----------



## belboid (Apr 12, 2020)

agricola said:


> Whatever the lawyers or even leadership say, I really cannot see how the EHRC don't now get hold of this document given its clear relevance to the inquiry its running (either as evidence of the then leaderships efforts to dissemble or as bad character stuff for the other side).


Given how many copies are floating around freely already, I imagine they already have it.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 12, 2020)

Now is not the time to be dragging up things from the past, the party needs to move on and concentrate on backing the Tories.


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Apr 12, 2020)

teqniq said:


> I'm not sure why he did that tbh. Misguided loyalty? Maybe. Having read Bob from Brockley's post on Williamson, antisemitism is part of a rather unpleasant list.


I haven’t read Bob frommBrockley so he may have unearthed something unpleasant. However I have listened to Williamson’s remarks at the meeting he was suspended for and they are unobjectionable.


----------



## Plumdaff (Apr 12, 2020)

Williamson clearly hasn't read the part of the report about him which makes it very clear why he needed to be booted out of the party. 

What's most grating is the vacuous playground bullying of it all. It's like anti-politics, anti-principles, just vile. And these are the supposed grown-ups in the room. Ugh.


----------



## bimble (Apr 12, 2020)

Larry O'Hara said:


> Bimble you have got it in one! And shows how utterly wrong fascists are when they see Met Police bigwigs attending BDBJ functions as evidence they are under the Board’s thumb. Whereas it is more gratitude for services rendered (by the CST).


Where did you learn this larry?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 12, 2020)

The whole thing extends some way beyond antisemitism of course eg



That is censored for some reason but it's not hard to find versions with the names still in.


----------



## bimble (Apr 12, 2020)

Looks like there's loads of stuff in it that is massively embarrassing for the side who basically won, like historically significant scumbaggery, but most of it seems not relevant to the thing the ehrc are investigating. (i haven't seen the whole thing)


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 12, 2020)

bimble said:


> Looks like there's loads of stuff in it that is massively embarrassing for the side who basically won, like historically significant scumbaggery, but most of it seems not relevant to the thing the ehrc are investigating. (i haven't seen the whole thing)


It seems fairly relevant as it claims that investigations into antisemitism were deliberately held back and disrupted for internal political reasons.


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Apr 12, 2020)

From extensive research, some of it covertly undertaken (though not by me of course 😉) : see Notes From the Borderland for an indication of my broad approach. It will be published in time, but not imminently


----------



## bimble (Apr 12, 2020)

FridgeMagnet said:


> It seems fairly relevant as it claims that investigations into antisemitism were deliberately held back and disrupted for internal political reasons.


Totally yes that bit. But the surrounding evidence of the loathing and ill will that everyone knew was there anyway but sets the scene less so.


----------



## bimble (Apr 12, 2020)

Larry O'Hara said:


> From extensive research, some of it covertly undertaken😉: see Notes From the Borderland for an indication of my broad approach. It will be published in time, but not imminently


Could you be a bit more specific and point me to what you've written on this particular subject (jews doing undercover black ops for the met in return for the police being on their side)? Very interested in that in particular. Tbh i don't believe you without any evidence so would like to see please.


----------



## Plumdaff (Apr 12, 2020)

So 170 complaints of antisemitism against party members weren't looked into while this lot were booting people out for liking something Caroline Lucas said. Two years later, this inaction was blamed on the leadership and the left of the party. There's evidence of Muslim and Jewish party members having their complaints ignored because their politics didn't fit.


----------



## bimble (Apr 12, 2020)

Stuff that account is sharing is really bad.
Just checking is the idea that these staffers successfully pulled the wool over the eyes of corbyn and his team for years whilst he was being attacked for it day in day out and they successfully fooled him and let all these antisemites get away with it for ages in order to make him look bad later?


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Apr 12, 2020)

bimble said:


> Could you be a bit more specific and point me to what you've written on this particular subject (jews doing undercover black ops for the met in return for the police being on their side)? Very interested in that in particular. Tbh i don't believe you without any evidence so would like to see please.


Ah the perils of the internet: whereby somebody you don’t know not using their real name (not saying you should but I do) announces they “don’t believe you”. And demands evidence on Urban indeed. Not saying I blame you, this is the way the internet works is it not.

I will say this though

1. Repeat that this will be published: when I decide though, not others
2. if you return to site you so impressively (or not) scanned in a few minutes ask yourself this question: are the people behind it the type of people who might (just might) be people who could uncover infiltration.
3. When I referred to the CST and infiltration I didn’t say it was necessarily Jews doing it
4. if you pm me, when something is published, I will tell you


----------



## Plumdaff (Apr 12, 2020)

bimble said:


> Stuff that account is sharing is really bad. Just checking is the idea that these staffers successfully pulled the wool over the eyes of corbyn's leadership team to let all these antisemites get away with it for ages in order to make him look bad later?



I don't think it's that wool was being pulled over anyone's eyes it's that everyone knew they were actively working against the leadership but not the detail and extent of it. Also that they didn't act on antisemitism because their political priorities were outing the 'trots' but then they withheld information from the leadership so they could then brief the media about cases and allege the leadership hadn't acted or didn't care. The report isn't saying there was no problem (and I'd add that there were some obvious problems with JC and some of his fellow travellers) but that the problem was cynically ignored and then cynically used.


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Apr 12, 2020)

Plumdaff said:


> So 170 complaints of antisemitism against party members weren't looked into while this lot were booting people out for liking something Caroline Lucas said. Two years later, this inaction was blamed on the leadership and the left of the party. There's evidence of Muslim and Jewish party members having their complaints ignored because their politics didn't fit.



Sorry if I’ve missed this: is the report available online, and where?


----------



## bimble (Apr 12, 2020)

Larry O'Hara said:


> Ah the perils of the internet: whereby somebody you don’t know not using their real name (not saying you should but I do) announces they “don’t believe you”. And demands evidence on Urban indeed. Not saying I blame you, this is the way the internet works is it not.
> 
> I will say this though
> 
> ...


Such mystery! My real name is bimble.  Maybe better to not write things like 'the cst do secret spying for the met as part of a faustian deal to get the police onside' before you have your ducks lined up convincingly. When you say published you mean added to your website. You know, keep your tinder dry.


----------



## Shechemite (Apr 12, 2020)

Larry O'Hara said:


> Ah the perils of the internet: whereby somebody you don’t know not using their real name (not saying you should but I do) announces they “don’t believe you”. And demands evidence on Urban indeed. Not saying I blame you, this is the way the internet works is it not.
> 
> I will say this though
> 
> ...


----------



## Plumdaff (Apr 12, 2020)

Larry O'Hara said:


> Sorry if I’ve missed this: is the report available online, and where?


Link


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Apr 12, 2020)

Plumdaff said:


> Link


Many thanks


----------



## belboid (Apr 12, 2020)

It's a fun read, I've only got through the bits on Walker & Glenn Secker so far


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Apr 12, 2020)

bimble said:


> Such mystery! My real name is bimble.  Maybe better to not write things like 'the cst do secret spying for the met as part of a faustian deal to get the police onside' before you have your ducks lined up convincingly. When you say published you mean added to your website. You know, keep your tinder dry.


No I don’t just mean added to the website. My ducks are lined up but, you know, I have other writing projects first. My choice: and your ‘advice’ on what I should and shouldn’t write noted 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂


----------



## bimble (Apr 12, 2020)

Larry O'Hara said:


> No I don’t just mean added to the website. My ducks are lined up but, you know, I have other writing projects first. My choice: and your ‘advice’ on what I should and shouldn’t write noted 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂


ok then. 7 crying laughing emojis has put me in my place and no mistake.  When yr big reveal on the covert ops by the jews comes out do let us know tho. I am wondering if its their beards that come in handy for the met. Could be a good movie in this.


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Apr 12, 2020)

bimble said:


> ok then. 7 crying laughing emojis has put me in my place and no mistake you carry on.


Actually they were meant to be laughing! But, thank you, I will 😄


----------



## Plumdaff (Apr 12, 2020)

> This investigation has revealed to the Party that in this period, before Jennie Formby
> became General Secretary in spring 2018, GLU failed to act on the vast majority of
> complaints received, including the vast majority of complaints regarding antisemitic
> conduct. Systematically reviewing all letters sent to members by GLU from 1
> ...


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Apr 12, 2020)

bimble said:


> ok then. 7 crying laughing emojis has put me in my place and no mistake.  When yr big reveal on the covert ops by the jews comes out do let us know tho. I am wondering if its their beards that come in handy for the met. Could be a good movie in this.


See point 3 of post 3673.


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Apr 12, 2020)

Remind me: who was Gen Sec before Formby and were they anti-Corbyn?


----------



## bimble (Apr 12, 2020)

Plumdaff said:


> Systematically reviewing all letters sent to members by GLU from 1
> November 2016 to 19 February 2018, the Party has found that GLU initiated investigations into just 34 members in relation to antisemitism in this period. More than 300 complaints relating to antisemitism appear to have been received, however. At least half of these warranted action, many of them in relation to very extreme forms of antisemitism, but were ignored.


The whole time he was being harangued about it every day he and his team had no clue what was being hidden from him by those dastardly staffers. It was impossible obvs for the leader of the party or someone close to him to to ask to see the complaints that he was interviewed about every day. A sad shambles.


----------



## William of Walworth (Apr 12, 2020)

Larry O'Hara said:


> Remind me: who was Gen Sec before Formby and were they anti-Corbyn?



I'd forgotten too, but it was Iain McNicol


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Apr 12, 2020)

William of Walworth said:


> I'd forgotten too, but it was Iain McNicol


I see: a nasty right wing shit. All adds up!


----------



## mauvais (Apr 12, 2020)

I think it's time I filled in that union form to bin off the political affiliation, or possibly the union altogether TBF.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Apr 12, 2020)

Tell you what though, it's typical of labour left that it didn't leak this report before the last leadership campaign. Maybe starmer would still have won but it would have been a fuck lot closer


----------



## Proper Tidy (Apr 12, 2020)

mauvais said:


> I think it's time I filled in that union form to bin off the political affiliation, or possibly the union altogether TBF.



Is it unite?


----------



## mauvais (Apr 12, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Is it unite?


Yeah. I should have joined BECTU (no affiliation) years ago but the voting rights in Unite, as well as inertia, kept me in place. Fuck em.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Apr 12, 2020)

mauvais said:


> Yeah. I should have joined BECTU (no affiliation) years ago but the voting rights in Unite, as well as inertia, kept me in place. Fuck em.



I went down an internet rabbit hole finding out how to opt out after first emailing welsh region (which usually responds quickly) and getting nothing back - they don't make it easy. Anyway I found this in the end, it's from 2008 but couldn't find anything else. Still haven't sent mine yet

Or you could leave the union and lose out on the energy club and free will writing


----------



## mauvais (Apr 12, 2020)

You used to be able to do it online via one of the two weird membership sites (I opted out and then back at various points and never filled in a paper form) but it seems like it's changed.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 12, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Tell you what though, it's typical of labour left that it didn't leak this report before the last leadership campaign. Maybe starmer would still have won but it would have been a fuck lot closer


One of the great what ifs of LP history.

Reckon bits like this appearing early on would have seriously dented the soft left --> full-on right swing members.


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Apr 12, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Tell you what though, it's typical of labour left that it didn't leak this report before the last leadership campaign. Maybe starmer would still have won but it would have been a fuck lot closer


Yes the Labour Left are too soft by half.


----------



## Plumdaff (Apr 12, 2020)

bimble said:


> The whole time he was being harangued about it every day he and his team had no clue what was being hidden from him by those dastardly staffers. It was impossible obvs for the leader of the party or someone close to him to to ask to see the complaints that he was interviewed about every day. A sad shambles.



Read the report. They did ask and Iain McNichol produced false reports that cases were being acted on. The whole truth only came to light when Formby was appointed.



> However, when questioned by the office of the Leader of the Opposition (LOTO) about
> such matters, as the Party’s handling of antisemitism complaints came under
> unprecedented media and political scrutiny, senior GLU and GSO staff, including the
> General Secretary Iain McNicol, repeatedly:
> ...


----------



## agricola (Apr 12, 2020)

bimble said:


> The whole time he was being harangued about it every day he and his team had no clue what was being hidden from him by those dastardly staffers. It was impossible obvs for the leader of the party or someone close to him to to ask to see the complaints that he was interviewed about every day. A sad shambles.



TBF that the leadership was asking about how complaints were being handled was a specific complaint of theirs, mentioned in that Panorama.


----------



## bimble (Apr 12, 2020)

It just makes me feel so sad the whole ducking thing. To be (“as a Jew”) used in this way in the whole shitty show for years has been painful and alienating as fuck.


----------



## Shechemite (Apr 12, 2020)

Lots of private info of complainants in the report which was unredacted before being leaked. 

Great stuff this.


----------



## tim (Apr 12, 2020)

Plumdaff said:


> Link





bimble said:


> Could you be a bit more specific and point me to what you've written on this particular subject (jews doing undercover black ops for the met in return for the police being on their side)? Very interested in that in particular. Tbh i don't believe you without any evidence so would like to see please.




Be careful bimble you don't want to get on the wrong side of Larry O'Hara. It's amusing what you can come across when googling someone who boasts patronisingly about their authenticity and inside knowledge 

Larry O'Hara looses his marbles

I just wish there were still bookshops in which one could get waylaid by aggravated Urbanites


----------



## Proper Tidy (Apr 12, 2020)

Plumdaff said:


> Read the report. They did ask and Iain McNichol produced false reports that cases were being acted on. The whole truth only came to light when Formby was appointed.



Aye. I think there is a slight difference between what bimble is saying/asking and what happened though eg the political and the procedural. 

On the political then the labour left and corbyn (the individual/the team) have to hold their hands up, the grim shit that was seized on comes from the shit politics and there was a clear reluctance to interrogate their own politics and political histories to challenge the wider anti imperialist type leftist shit and the specific consequences of that - antisemitism, conspiracism, assadism, the pro russia bollocks.

On the procedural as you set out they were trapped - whether by intent or incompetence on a logistical level it was allowed to fester and accumulate and then used by many, but largely driven by the people who had created the situation, as the rope to hang the labour left with... eg it escalated after formby became gen sec when this was when procedurally it became tighter, but when this was stated in mitigation - these cases predate, we are now dealing - the mitigation tanked, it had no credibility.

Would make a good book if you could get somebody who wasnt a cranky fellow traveler to write it


----------



## bimble (Apr 12, 2020)

Thank you tim i didn’t expect to be cheered up on this thread, ever, but that was a genuinely cheering read.


----------



## The39thStep (Apr 12, 2020)

brogdale said:


> One of the great what ifs of LP history.
> 
> Reckon bits like this appearing early on would have seriously dented the soft left --> full-on right swing members.
> 
> View attachment 206399



Seems like in 2015 even Milliband and Burham were considered too left wing .


----------



## brogdale (Apr 12, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Seems like in 2015 even Milliband and Burham were considered too left wing .
> 
> View attachment 206409


Turns out that the left party of capital really was.


----------



## The39thStep (Apr 12, 2020)

There; some cracking stuff in there , senior staffers response to Emma Coad winning Kensington


----------



## Proper Tidy (Apr 12, 2020)

Anybody watch that bbc documentary about the 2017 GE, kinnock the younger looking gutted and his oh the danish technocrat calling him an idiot and telling him to shut the fuck up and smile. Baffles me when people say now 'oh they couldn't even win against may' everybody thought they were going to get twatted by close to triple figure seats then they took fucking kensington


----------



## Proper Tidy (Apr 12, 2020)

The irony in that bbc doc being that they only did it to watch labour get twatted and the left get fucked out of it of course


----------



## mauvais (Apr 13, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> I think that last bullet point ('die in a fire') was targeted at max shanley


I'm reading through this shit now and you were right.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 13, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Tell you what though, it's typical of labour left that it didn't leak this report before the last leadership campaign. Maybe starmer would still have won but it would have been a fuck lot closer



Precisely. I’ve been having a read of this. Whilst it’s highly unsurprising to learn that the Blairite’s in the party bureaucracy connived to undermine the leadership (mirroring the PLP’s public undermining of the leadership) there is some absolutely cracking material in the report. Whilst I’m not well versed enough in the minutia of who’s who in the LP bureaucracy some of the key players must be team Starmer?

So why wait to lose to Starmer before leaking it? Mason has, laughably, already describes the anonymous report as British politics’ ‘Watergate’. Whilst it’s not that it does reveal nicely the cesspit that is the Labour Party establishment and presumably would have caused at least some members to think about the point of a drift back to dead end centrism?


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Apr 13, 2020)

tim said:


> Be careful bimble you don't want to get on the wrong side of Larry O'Hara. It's amusing what you can come across when googling someone who boasts patronisingly about their authenticity and inside knowledge
> 
> Larry O'Hara looses his marbles
> 
> I just wish there were still bookshops in which one could get waylaid by aggravated Urbanites


Oh yes Google: the encyclopaedia of the brain dead. And if somebody is maligned on the Internet by a cowardly little shit whose mantra is ‘truth is the enemy’ it must be true mustn’t it? I don’t need to boast, troll, now crawl back down your hole. Just noticed an unintentional irony in your post: Home only wrote this crap after I took issue when I bumped into him in Housmans bookshop and upbraided him for attacking defendants in the GANDALF conspiracy case (Google that). Yet you now use that as part of recycling a slur. Though all this is no doubt wasted on you: for to understand this requires qualities of intelligence perspective and discernment, none of which are to be found on Google. Still, Bimbo liked your post so job done! Now troll off.


----------



## Shechemite (Apr 13, 2020)

Larry O'Hara said:


> Bimbo



well aren’t you a charm.


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Apr 13, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> well aren’t you a charm.


Oh sorry, did I get a fake name wrong of somebody who liked a post recycling homophobic abuse? How very remiss of me, bit like a foul shot at croquet.


----------



## mauvais (Apr 13, 2020)




----------



## Shechemite (Apr 13, 2020)

Larry O'Hara said:


> Oh sorry, did I get a fake name wrong of somebody who liked a post recycling homophobic abuse? How very remiss of me, bit like a foul shot at croquet.



right


----------



## Proper Tidy (Apr 13, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Precisely. I’ve been having a read of this. Whilst it’s highly unsurprising to learn that the Blairite’s in the party bureaucracy connived to undermine the leadership (mirroring the PLP’s public undermining of the leadership) there is some absolutely cracking material in the report. Whilst I’m not well versed enough in the minutia of who’s who in the LP bureaucracy some of the key players must be team Starmer?
> 
> So why wait to lose to Starmer before leaking it? Mason has, laughably, already describes the anonymous report as British politics’ ‘Watergate’. Whilst it’s not that it does reveal nicely the cesspit that is the Labour Party establishment and presumably would have caused at least some members to think about the point of a drift back to dead end centrism?



Hadn't thought of mason. Where does he go now, swimming in the same pool as the people named in this. Lol. Delicious tbh, the silly old trendy lecturer cunt


----------



## Proper Tidy (Apr 13, 2020)

mauvais said:


> View attachment 206468



When all is said and done the labour party is a fucking ridiculous thing isn't it, somehow hundreds of years of labour movement history has largely ended up being about lots of cunts on twitter


----------



## bimble (Apr 13, 2020)

Reading it now, what a shower of absolute bastards. Purposefully allowing this to balloon so that it became front page news for months and months has I’m convinced led to a real life increase in actual antisemitism of the jews are the crafty enemies of a better society type.


----------



## tim (Apr 13, 2020)

Larry O'Hara said:


> Oh sorry, did I get a fake name wrong of somebody who liked a post recycling homophobic abuse? How very remiss of me, bit like a foul shot at croquet.



Why do you feel it's acceptable to resort to misogynistic abuse, if you disapprove of homophobic abuse? Anyway the "like" in question doesn't seem to be in the last few pages of this thread, so perhaps you should have provided a link to back up the claim.

Also I think that you'll find nearly everybody posting here uses a "fake name"   you and I, at least partially, are rather exceptional.


----------



## 19force8 (Apr 13, 2020)

tim said:


> Why do you feel it's acceptable to resort to misogynistic abuse, if you disapprove of homophobic abuse? Anyway the "like" in question doesn't seem to be in the last few pages of this thread, so perhaps you should have provided a link to back up the claim.
> 
> Also I think that you'll find nearly everybody posting here uses a "fake name"   you and I, at least partially, are rather exceptional.


Me too, but at least you have a recognisable photo.


----------



## rekil (Apr 13, 2020)

Plumdaff said:


> Williamson clearly hasn't read the part of the report about him which makes it very clear why he needed to be booted out of the party.


He got off lightly as it doesn't mention how he's ganged up with the Beeley/Henningsen scumosphere.


----------



## belboid (Apr 13, 2020)

rekil said:


> He got off lightly as it doesn't mention how he's ganged up with the Beeley/Henningsen scumosphere.


Wasn't considered important, was it? Involving Syria would suddenly start to draw in too many other people


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 13, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Hadn't thought of mason. Where does he go now, swimming in the same pool as the people named in this. Lol. Delicious tbh, the silly old trendy lecturer cunt



seemingly into risible hyperbole by equating the downfall of one of the worlds most powerful men by dogged investigative journalism with an anonymous report about some twats in Labour calling other people ‘pube head’


----------



## 19force8 (Apr 13, 2020)

bimble said:


> Reading it now, what a shower of absolute bastards. Purposefully allowing this to balloon so that it became front page news for months and months has I’m convinced led to a real life increase in actual antisemitism of the jews are the crafty enemies of a better society type.


TBH I think we all knew there was some murky behaviour in the bureaucracy, but to see the extent of it exposed is both shocking and unsurprising.

I think you're right to say it will only increase the insecurity of the Jewish community as the conspiracy types will be saying "look, there was an actual conspiracy."

On another tack, it amply demonstrates the root problem with reformism. Just because you win the election doesn't mean you have "power." The blunt weapon response of a bunch of semi-competent party hacks is nothing compared to the professional Sir Humphreys.


----------



## andysays (Apr 13, 2020)

Larry O'Hara said:


> Oh sorry, did I get a fake name wrong of somebody who liked a post recycling homophobic abuse? How very remiss of me, bit like a foul shot at croquet.


I've never played croquet, so don't know how seriously a foul shot would be viewed, but  calling a jewish woman a bimbo on a thread about anti-semitism isn't a great look, is it...


----------



## bimble (Apr 13, 2020)

I can’t be even arsed to be offended by Larry tbh long as he feels very important that’s what matters.


----------



## treelover (Apr 13, 2020)

Wish i hadn't seen this, it looks like a form of a coup has happened, again?

I have been a member since 2015, tried my best to get issues like social care onto the CLP, with some success, though always coming up against an intransgient council, etc.

t


----------



## treelover (Apr 13, 2020)

Internal report lays bare poor handling of complaints by Labour – LabourList
					

An internal report created by Labour Party staff has laid bare the extent to which disciplinary cases were poorly handled by party staff members, but…




					labourlist.org
				




labour list seem to be spinning the report in a different direction


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Apr 13, 2020)

andysays said:


> I've never played croquet, so don't know how seriously a foul shot would be viewed, but  calling a jewish woman a bimbo on a thread about anti-semitism isn't a great look, is it...


How exactly am I to know the identity (even gender) of somebody using a pseudonym? Surreal this is getting


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Apr 13, 2020)

tim said:


> Why do you feel it's acceptable to resort to misogynistic abuse, if you disapprove of homophobic abuse? Anyway the "like" in question doesn't seem to be in the last few pages of this thread, so perhaps you should have provided a link to back up the claim.
> 
> Also I think that you'll find nearly everybody posting here uses a "fake name"   you and I, at least partially, are rather exceptional.


See post 3730


----------



## planetgeli (Apr 13, 2020)

Larry O'Hara said:


> How exactly am I to know the identity (even gender) of somebody using a pseudonym? Surreal this is getting



Are you being disingenuous here or are you really as thick as shit?


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Apr 13, 2020)

So, it is perfectly acceptable for you to call me thick as shit is it? Do you really think I have the time or interest in checking the identity of posters who of course don’t use their real names? Or trawl through their posting history to try and guess who they are? Sad people like you might have the time to do this, I certainly don’t and won’t. Nor however will I be intimidated by abusive trolls like you. Do one, I’m off out to the garden.


----------



## bimble (Apr 13, 2020)

planetgeli said:


> Are you being disingenuous here or are you really as thick as shit?


He doesn’t deserve all this, it was 50/50 really if he’d be calling a woman bimbo in order to be hilarious / assert himself and tbh it’s just pitiful, but also informative. Never mind.


----------



## planetgeli (Apr 13, 2020)

Larry O'Hara said:


> So, it is perfectly acceptable for you to call me thick as shit is it?



Tbf, I couched it as a question. But if you want me to answer it myself then yeah, I reckon a bit  from column A and a bit from column B.


----------



## Shechemite (Apr 13, 2020)

Or is bimble just pretending to be a bimbo? Are there links to the CST/Jewish Chronicle deep state we don’t know about?


----------



## bimble (Apr 13, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Or is bimble just pretending to be a bimbo? Are there links to the CST/Jewish Chronicle deep state we don’t know about?


Right that’s it, you’re disinvited from all future meetings of the Cabal.


----------



## rekil (Apr 13, 2020)

belboid said:


> Wasn't considered important, was it? Involving Syria would suddenly start to draw in too many other people


Dunno, Atzmon was mentioned and they're in the same sewer as him, Beeley being involved with E&R and Henningsen being a holocaust denier.


----------



## andysays (Apr 13, 2020)

Larry O'Hara said:


> How exactly am I to know the identity (even gender) of somebody using a pseudonym? Surreal this is getting


Have you actually read the thread? It should be quite obvious to anyone paying even the most cursory attention that bimble is a jewish woman.


----------



## William of Walworth (Apr 13, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Anybody watch that bbc documentary about the 2017 GE, *kinnock the younger looking gutted* and his oh the danish technocrat calling him an idiot and telling him to shut the fuck up and smile.



I watched that documentary -- pretty bloody revealing. 
Kinnock Jr. wasn't the only re-elected MP to look miserable at their majority increasing big-style in 2017. 
I thought that was insane when I watched it, and still do -- any _normal_ Labour candidate/MP would be delighted that more voters turned out to vote them in. 
Bonkers ......


----------



## tim (Apr 13, 2020)

Larry O'Hara said:


> So, it is perfectly acceptable for you to call me thick as shit is it? Do you really think I have the time or interest in checking the identity of posters who of course don’t use their real names? Or trawl through their posting history to try and guess who they are? Sad people like you might have the time to do this, I certainly don’t and won’t. Nor however will I be intimidated by abusive trolls like you. Do one, I’m off out to the garden.



Just enough time to make accusations and shower abuse on anyone with the temerity to challenge you, but not enough time to back those accusations up: pompous prig!














Stewart Home might well be an unreliable source, but his descriptions of your behaviour in the 90's ring true to anyone encountering you a quarter of a century later.

Larry & Michel Need A Bath


> A press release issued by Larry O'Hara and Michel Prigent of the 'Anti-Deception Committee' has come to my attention. This gives a somewhat eccentric account of events at the ICA in London on 18/3/96 when O'Hara and Prigent disrupted a reading by gay novelist Neil Bartlett. Since the two chums arrived late, Neil invited them to sit alongside me in the front row, but for reasons best known to themselves, they refused and proceeded to disrupt Bartlett's reading from the back of the room. O'Hara, apparently not realising that questions from the floor are usually saved until the end of these events, began screeching hysterically. Eventually, he singled out a black woman for abuse, and after he described her as 'trash" ......


----------



## Proper Tidy (Apr 13, 2020)

William of Walworth said:


> I watched that documentary -- pretty bloody revealing.
> Kinnock Jr. wasn't the only re-elected MP to look miserable at their majority increasing big-style in 2017.
> I thought that was insane when I watched it, and still do -- any _normal_ Labour candidate/MP would be delighted that more voters turned out to vote them in.
> Bonkers ......



There's your problem, none of these people are normal


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## Shechemite (Apr 13, 2020)

When will all this be over then? By Christmas (2030)?


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Apr 13, 2020)

tim said:


> Just enough time to make accusations and shower abuse on anyone with the temerity to challenge you, but not enough time to back those accusations up: pompous prig!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You rely on scum like Home: no more need be said.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Apr 13, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> When will all this be over then? By Christmas (2030)?



It will never end. In its own way its beautiful. Like a dog eating its own shit or a snake eating a rabbit.


----------



## Shechemite (Apr 13, 2020)

Well the last 4 years it’s spilt out into and poisoned all sorts of movements. Hopefully moving forward the rest of us can focus on what’s important to us and the nutters and climbers can keep their battles to themselves.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Apr 13, 2020)

Ah sorry my comment looks a bit shit in hindsight, I was referring to the whole labour shitshow in general not the antisemitism specifically and it's seeping out and effect on sense of security etc but it was a bit shit really


----------



## Shechemite (Apr 13, 2020)

No sorry didn’t mean to sound short.

it was a toxic combination of a lot of very desperate people (understandably) putting their hopes in a labour victory, and then having some right wankers tell them it was the CST (or whatever) stopping it happen. Still not sure what to make of it all. There’s a lot of groups I won’t go anywhere near now (and who won’t go anywhere near me also). not fond memories.


----------



## cantsin (Apr 14, 2020)

rekil said:


> He got off lightly as it doesn't mention how he's ganged up with the Beeley/Henningsen scumosphere.



genuine  question : was there any evidence of Williamson involvement with Beeley after the festival appearance /1 x cosy tweet exchange after ? ( speaking as someone who only became aware of Beeley / what she / her lot were about thanks to U75 , and who lost any patience left for CW after he apologised for Gilad Altzman petition, but wouldn't respond re : Beeley ) .


----------



## rekil (Apr 16, 2020)

cantsin said:


> genuine  question : was there any evidence of Williamson involvement with Beeley after the festival appearance /1 x cosy tweet exchange after ? ( speaking as someone who only became aware of Beeley / what she / her lot were about thanks to U75 , and who lost any patience left for CW after he apologised for Gilad Altzman petition, but wouldn't respond re : Beeley ) .


I don't know and I'm not going to go through likes, rts and whatnot. He and Beeley could be matey in private or they could have fallen out as these freaks often do. He is pals with Patrick Henningsen who has featured and interviewed him for his site in the last year, mostly about their shared assange cultism, and he's part of the Beeleyite 'imperialism/media on trial' travelling shitshow. As we've shown already, on top of all the standard conspiraloon shit, Henningsen is a holocaust denier who was a regular on neo-nazi Henrik Palmgren's site and has promoted Nick Kollerstrom and demented estonian Juri Lina.


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## cantsin (Apr 16, 2020)

rekil said:


> I don't know and I'm not going to go through likes, rts and whatnot. He and Beeley could be matey in private or they could have fallen out as these freaks often do. He is pals with Patrick Henningsen who has featured and interviewed him for his site in the last year, mostly about their shared assange cultism, and he's part of the Beeleyite 'imperialism/media on trial' travelling shitshow. As we've shown already, on top of all the standard conspiraloon shit, Henningsen is a holocaust denier who was a regular on neo-nazi Henrik Palmgren's site and has promoted Nick Kollerstrom and demented estonian Juri Lina.



tnx, just found the Henningsen / Williams Assange interview ... he must know who the feck Henningsen is / what he represents, good to know / will be useful, ta


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 17, 2020)

Larry O'Hara said:


> You rely on scum like Home: no more need be said.



While I don't believe Home is scum, I do believe that relying on the testimony of someone whose oeuvre is to subvert fact, is foolish at best.


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## Larry O'Hara (Apr 17, 2020)

ViolentPanda said:


> While I don't believe Home is scum, I do believe that relying on the testimony of someone whose oeuvre is to subvert fact, is foolish at best.


Having been subject to a relentless campaign of character assassination by this creep involving multiple leaflets,pamphlets and even a CD involving numerous lies I obviously have a different experience than you. But you may be right: perhaps scum performs a socially useful function, after all I think in the 19th Century scummell covered areas carpets didn’t. So you might have a point. I suppose it also my negative reaction to people who think dredging up internet garbage in itself proves a point, it doesn’t.


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## tim (Apr 17, 2020)

Larry O'Hara said:


> Having been subject to a relentless campaign of character assassination by this creep involving multiple leaflets,pamphlets and even a CD involving numerous lies I obviously have a different experience than you. But you may be right: perhaps scum performs a socially useful function, after all I think in the 19th Century scummell covered areas carpets didn’t. So you might have a point. I suppose it also my negative reaction to people who think dredging up internet garbage in itself proves a point, it doesn’t.



Home is the quintessential unreliable narrator, which makes it ironic that his twenty-five-year-old descriptions of you, which seem so caricatured, actually chime so closely with your persona on these boards: boorish, arrogant, humourless and absurd.


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## Larry O'Hara (Apr 20, 2020)

tim said:


> Home is the quintessential unreliable narrator, which makes it ironic that his twenty-five-year-old descriptions of you, which seem so caricatured, actually chime so closely with your persona on these boards: boorish, arrogant, humourless and absurd.


Boorish arrogant humourless and absurd: how apt you summarise yourself thus, you shallow little toad.


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## Serge Forward (Apr 20, 2020)

As someone I know (who I previously had a lot of respect for - despite being a Labour Party member) has been recently singing the praises of Jackie Walker and Chris Williamson, would someone be so kind as to give me a potted summary of their crimes? Pretty please?


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## belboid (Apr 20, 2020)

Serge Forward said:


> As someone I know (who I previously had a lot of respect for - despite being a Labour Party member) has been recently singing the praises of Jackie Walker and Chris Williamson, would someone be so kind as to give me a potted summary of their crimes? Pretty please?


Williamson is an Assadist shitbag, (see Labour & Anti-Semitism. for brief details) who is, to be generous, a bit of a dumbo who loves shouting his mouth off to irritate people and so is, to be generous, at least a knob over Israel.  He was finally suspended from Labour for trying to host a JW meeting after she had been kicked out of the party and everyone had been told not to go on a platform with her.

Some of the anti-JW stuff is, I think, unfair.  She was accused of saying the jews were prime financiers of the slave trade (pace Farrakhan), but was quoted rather out of context.  And, in a supposedly private JLM meeting where people were encouraged to ask what might otherwise be awkward questions/statements without fear of reprisal, she was said the holocaust was no worse than the black holocaust in Africa under imperialism - and why weren't other holocausts included in holocaust memorial day -  and that she didn't know a meaning of antisemitism that she was happy with.   This was then leaked, which contradicted the whole point of the session.  And I'd have had sympathy with her if she'd shuit up then, but she chose to go on Newsnight and say everything again (even the bits she had been corrected on) and said she stood by everything.  More generally, she is just a massive egotist who only ever talks or cares about herself. Not totally unlike Williamson.


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## Proper Tidy (Apr 20, 2020)

The 'private JLM meeting' was antisemitism training she was obliged to attend by the labour party after doing the nation of islam conspiracy. Both scum.


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## Serge Forward (Apr 20, 2020)

Ta folks.


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## LDC (Apr 20, 2020)

There's a good Bob from Brockley thread on Williamson somewhere iirc...? butchersapron


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## rekil (Apr 20, 2020)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> There's a good Bob from Brockley thread on Williamson somewhere iirc...? butchersapron


This blog bit? 









						What's wrong with Chris Williamson?
					

I've lost count of the number of times I've seen people on Twitter - whether ignorantly or disingenuously - claiming to not know what's wro...




					brockley.blogspot.com
				




There's too much on Venezuela and not enough on his association with Ickeist cesspit 21stcenturywire imo.


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## cantsin (Apr 21, 2020)

Brockley, Paul Canning etc , bright folk, good on clear details / evidence etc, useful in the struggle vs the tin hatters.

Meanwhile Sir Keir reveals AFTER he's been selected leader that he took £50K from very busy arch Israeli State advocate / lobbyist / hawk Trevor Chinn, and it's only crank twitter (  and v much FB closed member groups ) that responds........ the terrain is completely clear for them ..... not a peep from the great alt centre rationalists


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## Combustible (Jun 9, 2020)

belboid said:


> And I'd have had sympathy with her if she'd shuit up then, but she chose to go on Newsnight and say everything again (even the bits she had been corrected on) and said she stood by everything.  More generally, she is just a massive egotist who only ever talks or cares about herself. Not totally unlike Williamson.



It seems like she just can't help herself


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## Shechemite (Jun 9, 2020)

There’s been plenty of support for her and her Ilk on these boards


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## Shechemite (Jun 9, 2020)

Dunno if this will help. I’m not really into the Jewish communal politics stuff, but from what I understand it’s taken a lot of effort from black Jews to get this Board of Deputies  – Board of Deputies to launch ‘Commission on Racial Inclusivity in the Jewish Community’


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## Treacle Toes (Jun 25, 2020)

Don't have another source for this but...

*Equalities and Human Rights Commissioner Failed to Declare Tory fundraising*









						Exclusive: Equalities commissioner failed to declare Conservative Party fundraising
					

Pavita Cooper held a fundraising event for a Conservative MP attended by George Osborne and did not mention it to the Equalities and Human Rights Commission.




					www.newsweek.com
				




Not looking good given...which people have been quick to point out.









						Equalities watchdog drops plan for Tory Islamophobia inquiry
					

Conservative party commits to own investigation but UK’s largest Muslim body brands it a ‘facade’




					www.theguardian.com


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## oryx (Jun 26, 2020)

Rutita1 said:


> Don't have another source for this but...
> 
> *Equalities and Human Rights Commissioner Failed to Declare Tory fundraising*
> 
> ...


Hmmm. Interesting.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 26, 2020)

oryx said:


> Hmmm. Interesting.




It's just so bloody stupid. They are supposed to be impartial.


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## mauvais (Jun 27, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> I went down an internet rabbit hole finding out how to opt out after first emailing welsh region (which usually responds quickly) and getting nothing back - they don't make it easy. Anyway I found this in the end, it's from 2008 but couldn't find anything else. Still haven't sent mine yetView attachment 206398
> 
> Or you could leave the union and lose out on the energy club and free will writing


By the way while I know yours didn't respond, I got this done by emailing my regional branch. No form required.


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## bimble (Jun 27, 2020)

I just read this , Jewish Voice For Labour's official statement on the maxine peake thing. 
It says _"Despite these disputed and in some cases unknowable facts, there is enough evidence to support Maxine Peake’s inference that the knee on neck technique has an Israeli origin, with a plausible even probable transmission mechanism to the US."_ So based on [?] they reckon Israel probably _invented _kneeling on necks and are responsible for neck kneeling being exported to america, previously a neck-kneeling free place. Just putting this here because what an example of the kneejerk instinct to double and triple down. And how anyone can take JVL seriously, if anyone still does, idk.


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## Shechemite (Jun 27, 2020)

They published some Grayzone stuff on their site about Syria. Not sure what that’s got to do with their stated remit.


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## treelover (Jun 27, 2020)

So more members to be expelled?


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## bimble (Jun 28, 2020)

These fucking people.


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## Kevbad the Bad (Jun 28, 2020)

bimble said:


> These fucking people.
> View attachment 219844


I quite agree. It is stupid to make allegations of anti-semitism which are so obviously baseless. Who would contemplate doing such a thing?


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## cantsin (Jun 28, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> There’s been plenty of support for her and her Ilk on these boards



Plse show us any, at all


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## bimble (Jun 28, 2020)

cantsin said:


> Plse show us any, at all


 here let me help. This is a classic example & quite well ‘liked’ . 








						Labour & Anti-Semitism.
					

Clause 4 was put in place by the right of the party - by the fabians ffs -  to put a lid on anti-capitalism. It was never anything but rhetoric designed to stop the party splitting. People used to know this before Corbyn. Basic labour history.  Leo Panitch talks about this, doesn't he - the...




					www.urban75.net


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## bimble (Jun 28, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> I quite agree. It is stupid to make allegations of anti-semitism which are so obviously baseless. Who would contemplate doing such a thing?


Weaponisation: bad, apart from when it’s a bit of a laugh.


----------



## cantsin (Jun 28, 2020)

bimble said:


> here let me help. This is a classic example & quite well ‘liked’ .
> 
> 
> 
> ...



fair do’s , and I felt inclined that way a bit at first, but her ( apparent ) incessant, repeated  refusal to even sound like she understands / acknowledges the unique horrors of the Jewish holocaust had a growing / cumulative effect on me ( and presumably others )  , ie : guess what I’m saying is there’s virtually no one left inside the Party still ( vocally ) supporting JW ( that I see ) .


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## cantsin (Aug 15, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> They published some Grayzone stuff on their site about Syria. Not sure what that’s got to do with their stated remit.



jeez, think I've accidentally ( ie : wasn't in any way trying / thinking about it etc ) stumbled on who you are IRL ( LK ? ).

If it is you, then you're (thankfully )  much less combative on here than twatter ( maybe we all are ) , even if we're never going to remotely see eye to eye


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## Shechemite (Aug 15, 2020)

LK?


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## Shechemite (Aug 15, 2020)

Little bit creepy but there we are


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## Shechemite (Aug 15, 2020)

To be honest I’m combative if I think I should/need to be. If I think I don’t need to be combative I’m generally a cheerful soul. Like riding the tube. Help people with their bags/buggies/finding where to go/give up your seat for them. Makes life easier. YMMV


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## Shechemite (Aug 17, 2020)

Anyway, in the spirit of comradeship, here’s this. 









						Labour is Cleaning House, the Tories Must, Too. - JewThink
					

Barnaby Marder explains why if the Labour Party is tackling antisemitism, we have a right to expect the same from the Conservatives. In the Jewish Chronicle last week (August 12, 2020) Lee Harpin wrote a puzzling article about how leading Conservatives were ‘baffled over signs of Jewish support...



					www.jewthink.org
				




SAAS are a bit too liberal paternalist for my liking - Tories are unfair and ineffective managers of the NHS etc, we need fair and effective managers who will also deal with the ‘issue’ of racism fairly and effectively (VOTE LABOUR!)  

Nevertheless this article is an attempt to de-factionalise racism, albeit within their own framework.


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## sleaterkinney (Aug 24, 2020)

From the horses mouth:


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 24, 2020)

sleaterkinney said:


> From the horses mouth:




I thought Murray was meant to be one of the intellectual heavyweights around Jezza?


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## Cerv (Aug 25, 2020)

with friends like these Corbyn doesn't need enemies. yikes. what was Murray thinking?



> A question that troubled some was whether Corbyn categorised antisemitism as the kind of racism he had always set himself against. Andrew Murray, the trade unionist, said: “He is very empathetic, Jeremy, but he’s empathetic with the poor, the disadvantaged, the migrant, the marginalised . . . Happily, that is not the Jewish community in Britain today. He would have had massive empathy with the Jewish community in Britain in the 1930s and he would have been there at Cable Street, there’s no question. But, of course, the Jewish community today is relatively prosperous.”
> 
> For Murray, the fact that antisemitism and economic exploitation were not necessarily entwined posed a difficult question for many on the left: “Racism in British society since the Second World War — what does it mean? It means discrimination at work, discrimination in housing, hounding by the police on the streets, discrimination and disadvantage in education, demonisation and mischaracterisation in the mass media. That is what has happened to Afro-Caribbean and Asian immigrants and their descendants. It is not, mainly, what has happened to Jewish people. The fascists I knew in the 1970s didn’t go out Jew-hunting, they went out Paki-bashing. For a whole generation — that’s now quite an influential cohort in the Labour Party and around Jeremy personally — that is what racism is. They would say, ‘Of course, Jewish migrants to Britain in the first half of the 20th century — they lived in appalling conditions. They had it rough, they were attacked by the fascists. But, you know, that was then. The Jewish community’s moved on. It’s developed, it’s integrated and . . .’ This is where the failure to understand comes in — that, actually, antisemitism has different aspects to other forms of racism.” Many wondered, therefore, not whether Corbyn would empathise, but whether he could.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 25, 2020)

sleaterkinney said:


> From the horses mouth:



The horse being the Murdoch times I see


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 25, 2020)

Cerv said:


> with friends like these Corbyn doesn't need enemies. yikes. what was Murray thinking?


Would this be Andrew Murray who spent so many years in the cpgb and cpb?


----------



## Cerv (Aug 25, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Would this be Andrew Murray who spent so many years in the cpgb and cpb?


that's him yeah.
quit the CPB to join Labour in 2016 when he was seconded from Unite to work for Corbyn.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 25, 2020)

Cerv said:


> that's him yeah.
> quit the CPB to join Labour in 2016 when he was seconded from Unite to work for Corbyn.


And the darling of the left while he was in charge of the stwc


----------



## two sheds (Aug 25, 2020)

Cerv said:


> with friends like these Corbyn doesn't need enemies. yikes. what was Murray thinking?



I presume there's more in the article, but that seems just his opinion and his opinion of what corbyn believes, nothing on corbyn's actually said or believes.


----------



## Cerv (Aug 25, 2020)

two sheds said:


> I presume there's more in the article, but that seems just his opinion and his opinion of what corbyn believes, nothing on corbyn's actually said or believes.


not really. that's the whole part Murray's quoted at the end. preceding is mostly the timeline of events and gossip about McDonnell & Corbyn disagreeing

yes it's just Murray's opinion. but whether you believe him or not I'd prefer he'd kept unhelpful remarks like that to himself.


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Sep 11, 2020)

bimble said:


> Could you be a bit more specific and point me to what you've written on this particular subject (jews doing undercover black ops for the met in return for the police being on their side)? Very interested in that in particular. Tbh i don't believe you without any evidence so would like to see please.


You will: but on my time schedule not yours. Entirely legitimate for you to not believe me before I publish the evidence of course, no problem with that.


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## sleaterkinney (Oct 29, 2020)

Report is here: http://sentpressrelease.com/pressre...ion-into-antisemitism-in-the-labour-party.pdf

Not surprising reading.


----------



## JTG (Oct 29, 2020)

sleaterkinney said:


> Report is here: http://sentpressrelease.com/pressre...ion-into-antisemitism-in-the-labour-party.pdf
> 
> Not surprising reading.


Seeing as you've read the whole 130 page document this morning, perhaps you could summarise?


----------



## sleaterkinney (Oct 29, 2020)

JTG said:


> Seeing as you've read the whole 130 page document this morning, perhaps you could summarise?


There's an executive summary on page 5 if you're struggling.


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## JTG (Oct 29, 2020)

sleaterkinney said:


> There's an executive summary on page 5 if you're struggling.


Good to know you were able to skim read it


----------



## sleaterkinney (Oct 29, 2020)

JTG said:


> Good to know you were able to skim read it


Anything to say about the actual report?


----------



## Badgers (Oct 29, 2020)

Corbyn was not anti- semitic shocker perhaps?


----------



## JTG (Oct 29, 2020)

sleaterkinney said:


> Anything to say about the actual report?


It was released a few minutes ago and all I've seen is ghouls like you triumphantly using it as a weapon to fight your factional battles with

So I may find time to have a look at it later but it will be with a view to listening to what a variety of Jewish voices have to say about it and not someone as fundamentally unserious about combating racism as you evidently are.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Oct 29, 2020)

Badgers said:


> Corbyn was not anti- semitic shocker perhaps?


I think you'll find comrade, that the leader's office found he had no case to answer. (pg 44)


----------



## Knotted (Oct 29, 2020)

I don't want to say there weren't any problems in the LP but here is one of the examples that Labour is being held accountable for political interference in the disciplinary process.:



> On 26 June 2019, the NEC decided that Chris Williamson had engaged in misconduct in respect of antisemitism, and that he should receive a formal NEC warning (thus lifting his administrative suspension) rather than be referred to the NCC for disciplinary proceedings. The NEC decision was leaked to the press and prompted an outcry from Campaign Against Antisemitism, the Board of Deputies of British Jews and Labour MPs and peers.
> The following day, one of the NEC panel members, Keith Vaz MP, called and emailed Jennie Formby saying that, for a range of reasons, including his own health, the decision from the previous day ‘cannot stand’. The Labour Party reopened the complaint to be heard before another NEC panel. On 19 July 2019, the new panel decided to refer Chris Williamson to the NCC.
> Chris Williamson successfully challenged the decision to reopen the complaint in the High Court. The court found that:
> ‘it is not … difficult to infer that the true reason for the decision in this case was that members were influenced by the ferocity of the outcry following the June decision … the NEC should decide cases fairly and impartially in accordance with the rules and evidence; and not be influenced by how its decisions are seen by others. Internal and press reaction to a decision are not of themselves proper grounds for
> ...



So they're damned for reversing the decision for _not_ suspending Chris Williamnson. How's that for a case of damned if you do, damned if you don't?

Edit: Similar thing with the suspension of Ken Livingstone.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Oct 29, 2020)

JTG said:


> It was released a few minutes ago and all I've seen is ghouls like you triumphantly using it as a weapon to fight your factional battles with
> 
> So I may find time to have a look at it later but it will be with a view to listening to what a variety of Jewish voices have to say about it and not someone as fundamentally unserious about combating racism as you evidently are.


 Its a factional battle should never have occurred, a pointless waste of energy over a faction which never should have been near power and brought this shit with them, I hope it disappears from Labour with them also.


----------



## bimble (Oct 29, 2020)

my twitter is a swirling hell of vitriol again to greet the arrival of this report, after a lovely respite of people not spending every day shouting at each other about jews. What is the point? I don't think  the report will change a single person's mind.


----------



## JTG (Oct 29, 2020)

sleaterkinney said:


> Its a factional battle should never have occurred, a pointless waste of energy over a faction which never should have been near power and brought this shit with them, I hope it disappears from Labour with them also.


And this proves my point in all honesty. The idea that AS was absent from Labour before 2015 and between 2015 & 2020 was confined exclusively to one particular section of the party is
a) quite nonsensical
b) motivated by factional politics and not at all by a desire to combat anti-semitism


----------



## JTG (Oct 29, 2020)

I made a complaint to the Labour Party about the current shadow minister for the Duchy of Lancaster tweeting admiration for a known anti-semite in February this year. The complaint was acknowledged over four months later and I have heard nothing whatsoever since

I do not expect any action to be taken over this but it is an interesting exercise in who exactly gets to be held to account for this stuff and who does not.

The Labour Party itself is a nest of snakes and absolutely riddled with racism and transphobia. This permeates every section and faction of it from the current leader downwards


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Oct 29, 2020)

Have read quite a bit of it. Take so far

1) a lot of the problems it points to actually took place while anti-JC types were in control of Labour HQ and many were remedied under the Corbyn regime: eg speeding up complaints handling, devoting more resources to it post March 2018
2) Accuses Leaders office of interfering in sensitive cases without really acknowledging that much (not all) of this was done to expedite matters
3) Does provide some instances of unacceptable behaviour by the leadership certainly: and by members.
4) it is troubling that they find Labour as a whole legally responsible for actions of councillors (eg Bromley) and NEC members.
5) seems to take at face value rubbish like the Panorama programme. Does not at all seem to accept that some undoubted instances of anti-semitism were hyped by the Labour Right for factional reasons

on a more general point, the EHRC is interfering in politics in a way I do find disturbing and which in the long term can have unintended and undesirable consequences. For example, the EHRC moves to strangle the BNP while successful in the short term led some members to abandon formal politics and proceed down the violent route leading to National Action. 

A delicious irony (if you can call it that) is that the Starmer regime accepting this report will lead to the party shelling out millions, thereby hindering its ability to fight future elections....


----------



## JTG (Oct 29, 2020)

Larry O'Hara said:


> 2) Accuses Leaders office of interfering in sensitive cases without really acknowledging that much (not all) of this was done to expedite matters


Is it correct that this includes the Livingstone suspension?


----------



## Badgers (Oct 29, 2020)

Assume now that the EHRC will investigate 
the ingrained racism, anti-Semitism, Islamophobia & far-right links in the Conservative party.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Oct 29, 2020)

JTG said:


> And this proves my point in all honesty. The idea that AS was absent from Labour before 2015 and between 2015 & 2020 was confined exclusively to one particular section of the party is
> a) quite nonsensical
> b) motivated by factional politics and not at all by a desire to combat anti-semitism


I don't think it was completely absent from labour or even the tories, but I do think there was a big upsurge in it following Corbyns election and the new members joining and I don't think he did enough to counter it, whether that was because he agreed with it or because he was indecisive.


----------



## Knotted (Oct 29, 2020)

JTG said:


> Is it correct that this includes the Livingstone suspension?



Yes


----------



## two sheds (Oct 29, 2020)

Does that mean that Corbyn as leader is guilty of expediting the cases and not expediting the cases, and interfering and not interfering?


----------



## Knotted (Oct 29, 2020)

two sheds said:


> Does that mean that Corbyn as leader is guilty of expediting the cases and not expediting the cases, and interfering and not interfering?



It's a legalistic document. Going by LP procedures Corbyn's office should not have been interfering at all. But politically that was impossible in certain high profile cases eg. Williamson and Livingstone.

So essentially, yes.


----------



## bimble (Oct 29, 2020)

The defensive derision from some quarters is pretty grim tbh, as are the gloating people (on my twitter) shouting we told you so take that etc. Just depressing and pointless the whole thing.


----------



## JTG (Oct 29, 2020)

bimble said:


> The defensive derision from some quarters is pretty grim tbh, as are the gloating people (on my twitter) shouting we told you so take that etc. Just depressing and pointless the whole thing.


Indeed. As I say, pretty unserious about what is supposed to be the central issue


----------



## JTG (Oct 29, 2020)

It does seem... odd to me that the EHRC can find that the complaints inbox was unmonitored for long periods of time but the Labour Party also chose to pay out damages to the people who were supposed to be monitoring said inbox because the leaked report inferred that they were deliberately not monitoring it.


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Oct 29, 2020)

JTG said:


> Is it correct that this includes the Livingstone suspension?


Yes it does: and mixed there. On the one hand shows some decisive action, on the other a year delay. If I recall the delay might have been due to the anti-JC faction. For me, there should be a clear dividing line between events pre March 2018, when McNicholl and his entourage were shown the door, and after.


----------



## Cid (Oct 29, 2020)

Knotted said:


> I don't want to say there weren't any problems in the LP but here is one of the examples that Labour is being held accountable for political interference in the disciplinary process.:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That still really fits in with a lack of robust procedure though. A properly implemented system would be making decisions based on investigation and objective (using objective a bit loosely of course) tests. It should be able to justify its decision on that basis, it should not be able to, or indeed feel it has to, reverse decisions based merely on public opinion.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 29, 2020)

sleaterkinney said:


> I don't think it was completely absent from labour or even the tories, but I do think there was a big upsurge in it following Corbyns election and the new members joining and I don't think he did enough to counter it, *whether that was because he agreed with it *or because he was indecisive.



Do you really, hand on heart, believe this is a possibility, though? One of the saddest ironies of this mess is that a politician who had spent his whole political career campaigning against racism ended up being smeared as a racist when he was up against a party led by an actual racist.


----------



## JTG (Oct 29, 2020)

Larry O'Hara said:


> Yes it does: and mixed there. On the one hand shows some decisive action, on the other a year delay. If I recall the delay might have been due to the anti-JC faction. For me, there should be a clear dividing line between events pre March 2018, when McNicholl and his entourage were shown the door, and after.


That would seem reasonable. As I recall the main point of the leaked report was to illustrate the factional nature of Labour Party administrative staff and how this was clearly a factor in delays in addressing serious complaints.
I think it reflects incredibly poorly on the Party as a whole that these complaints were not addressed in a timely manner and this leads me to believe it cannot ever be a serious vehicle for change in all honesty


----------



## JTG (Oct 29, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Do you really, hand on heart, believe this is a possibility, though? One of the saddest ironies of this mess is that a politician who had spent his whole political career campaigning against racism ended up being smeared as a racist when he was up against a party led by an actual racist.


Precisely


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Oct 29, 2020)

Badgers said:


> Assume now that the EHRC will investigate
> the ingrained racism, anti-Semitism, Islamophobia & far-right links in the Conservative party.



Or maybe not.









						Equalities watchdog drops plan for Tory Islamophobia inquiry
					

Conservative party commits to own investigation but UK’s largest Muslim body brands it a ‘facade’




					www.theguardian.com
				












						Exclusive: Equalities commissioner failed to declare Conservative Party fundraising
					

Pavita Cooper held a fundraising event for a Conservative MP attended by George Osborne and did not mention it to the Equalities and Human Rights Commission.




					www.newsweek.com
				




It's a sock puppet front for the vermin regime.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 29, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Do you really, hand on heart, believe this is a possibility, though? One of the saddest ironies of this mess is that a politician who had spent his whole political career campaigning against racism ended up being smeared as a racist when he was up against a party led by an actual racist.


100% this


----------



## Knotted (Oct 29, 2020)

Cid said:


> That still really fits in with a lack of robust procedure though. A properly implemented system would be making decisions based on investigation and objective (using objective a bit loosely of course) tests. It should be able to justify its decision on that basis, it should not be able to, or indeed feel it has to, reverse decisions based merely on public opinion.



Yes it does, but the report isn't making that judgement. It's condemning political interference as unlawfully _discriminatory_ regardless of the intents of that interference and regardless of the failings of the procedures. So suspending bloody Chris Williamson was unlawful discrimination against Jews because it involved interference from the Leader's office.


----------



## platinumsage (Oct 29, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> who had spent his whole political career campaigning against racism



Had he spent his whole career campaigning against antisemitism, or just the kind of bad racism that aligned with his brand of anti-imperialism?


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Oct 29, 2020)

platinumsage said:


> Had he spent his whole career campaign against antisemitism, or just the kind of bad racism that aligned with his brand of anti-imperialism?


I don’t think JC differentiated between types of racism which Is why he was so annoyed at being called an anti-Semite. He certainly campaigned against a Jewish cemetery Closure and the very fact he was close to Jewish Voice for Labour underlines he was not anti-Semitic. What his Zionist critics didn’t like is that he talked to the wrong kind of Jews: ie anti-Zionists


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 29, 2020)

platinumsage said:


> Had he spent his whole career campaign against antisemitism, or just the kind of bad racism that aligned with his brand of anti-imperialism?


Given the nature of his constituency, what do you think? What do you reckon his history of constituency work with Jewish groups has been like? 

Some examples dating back to the 1980s detailed here:

Jewish historian recalls when Jeremy Corbyn saved a Jewish cemetery… from Margaret Hodge's council | The Canary

And if you think that's a bit biased, how about the Spectator's take?

Is Jeremy Corbyn really anti-Semitic? | The Spectator

You could just have looked that up for yourself, you know.


----------



## tim (Oct 29, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Do you really, hand on heart, believe this is a possibility, though? One of the saddest ironies of this mess is that a politician who had spent his whole political career campaigning against racism ended up being smeared as a racist when he was up against a party led by an actual racist.



You can accept the political realities in Palestine and Lebanon and stand in solidarity with the ongoing struggle without going on about: "Our Friends in Hamas"; and "Our Friends in Hezbollah". He was too willing to line up alongside reactionaries.


----------



## gosub (Oct 29, 2020)




----------



## Cid (Oct 29, 2020)

Knotted said:


> Yes it does, but the report isn't making that judgement. It's condemning political interference as unlawfully _discriminatory_ regardless of the intents of that interference and regardless of the failings of the procedures. So suspending bloody Chris Williamson was unlawful discrimination against Jews because it involved interference from the Leader's office.



I've skim read the section and not quite sure what you're getting at. They are arguing that the fact the process can be interfered with is discriminatory. It may seem a bit weird to use Williamson's suspension as part of that, but it has an actual high court ruling attached to it, along with the legal arguments and scrutiny that that entails. They are not arguing that Williamson's suspension is specifically discriminatory against Jewish people, they are using it as an example to show that the procedure is open to political interference.


----------



## Idris2002 (Oct 29, 2020)

two sheds said:


> Does that mean that Corbyn as leader is guilty of expediting the cases and not expediting the cases, and interfering and not interfering?


History's greatest monster.


----------



## JTG (Oct 29, 2020)

gosub said:


>



Starmer and even Margaret bloody Hodge very careful to sidestep any discussion of JC.

They do know that any move against him would split the party far more than Gapes and co fucking off last year could have dreamed of


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Oct 29, 2020)

gosub said:


>



MI6 Rogue? Aren’t they all?


----------



## Badgers (Oct 29, 2020)

JTG said:


> Starmer and even Margaret bloody Hodge very careful to sidestep any discussion of JC.
> 
> They do know that any move against him would split the party far more than Gapes and co fucking off last year could have dreamed of


Yup. 

JC being Labour and them not means that they have to play games


----------



## JTG (Oct 29, 2020)

Badgers said:


> Yup.
> 
> JC being Labour and them not means that they have to play games


The CLP of my Labour held marginal with a wishy washy right wing MP would struggle to campaign at all should they lose even more members as a result of expulsions. Especially as the absolutely massive membership of the relatively safe seat next door is already in sharp decline post-Starmer


----------



## gosub (Oct 29, 2020)

Larry O'Hara said:


> MI6 Rogue? Aren’t they all?



Is a curious comms channel, was the origin of tweet that said Trump had had a stroke, which Trump responded to, but nobody talks about that.  Has QAnon as bunkum (agree) but then says there is no such thing as deep state...though been throwing tweets in directions for enough months that it must have survived some Caeser's thumb at some stage. Though the bookshop is new


----------



## Knotted (Oct 29, 2020)

Cid said:


> I've skim read the section and not quite sure what you're getting at. They are arguing that the fact the process can be interfered with is discriminatory. It may seem a bit weird to use Williamson's suspension as part of that, but it has an actual high court ruling attached to it, along with the legal arguments and scrutiny that that entails. They are not arguing that Williamson's suspension is specifically discriminatory against Jewish people, they are using it as an example to show that the procedure is open to political interference.



Well I suppose any process _can_ be interfered with theoretically, so I'm not sure that would even be a legitimate complaint. The wording is very much pointing towards _actual_ interference and criticising the leader's office actions and the potentially discriminatory problems with procedures as a by product of that interference.



> We consider that this role requires the leadership to adhere carefully to the Party’s formal complaints procedure, and to be seen to do so, rather than permitting it to interfere in decisions about individual complaints.





> In summary, we find that LOTO’s involvement in individual antisemitism complaints was not within the Labour Party’s complaints process, and was therefore not a legitimate approach to determining complaints. The process has resulted in a lack of transparency and consistency in the complaints process. It has created a serious risk of actual or perceived discriminatory treatment in particular complaints. It has also fundamentally undermined public confidence in the complaints process.



I find all this quite weaselly in the report. Nobody but nobody is complaining about the discrimination against Jews as a result of the suspension of Williamson and Livingstone.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Oct 29, 2020)

tim said:


> You can accept the political realities in Palestine and Lebanon and stand in solidarity with the ongoing struggle without going on about: "Our Friends in Hamas"; and "Our Friends in Hezbollah". He was too willing to line up alongside reactionaries.


I quite agree that many on the left are too willing to go along with reactionary and authoritarian governments around the world. But this obsession with the word 'friends' is more than a bit over the top. We have Facebook 'friends', who we may not get on with at all. MP's talk about their 'honourable friends', who may well be political and personal enemies. Winston Churchill (a nasty bastard) proclaimed he was a 'friend' of Stalin (another nasty bastard). One word, taken on its own, says very little, and it is indicative of the lack substance to these allegations that people resort to this example so much.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 29, 2020)

Knotted said:


> I find all this quite weaselly in the report. Nobody but nobody is complaining about the discrimination against Jews as a result of the suspension of Williamson and Livingstone.


So if I've got this right (sorry, I'm not going to read it), the report ends up criticising Corbyn for taking action against anti-Semitism when he perceived that the party processes had failed. And that action is itself evidence of the danger that complaints might be treated in an anti-Semitic manner. 

I'm almost impressed. Kafka would be proud.


----------



## bimble (Oct 29, 2020)

i should ban myself from the internet for the rest of today, this sort of thing seems to be everywhere, again.   If this report was supposed to help anyone in any way at all i cant see it, it looks like everybody feels vindicated, on both sides of the argument, so maybe that's great and they can all shut up about jews again asap.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 29, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> So if I've got this right (sorry, I'm not going to read it), the report ends up criticising Corbyn for taking action against anti-Semitism when he perceived that the party processes had failed. And that action is itself evidence of the danger that complaints might be treated in an anti-Semitic manner.
> 
> I'm almost impressed. Kafka would be proud.


Get that, but isn't the point being made that it was the party's lack of robust, equitable and reliable process that led to the need for interventions, one way or another. As an institution, that is clearly a failing, and anyone who's had any contact with the administrative/bureaucratic side of the party will be unsurprised by such a failing.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 29, 2020)

bimble said:


> i should ban myself from the internet for the rest of today, this sort of thing seems to be everywhere, again.   If this report was supposed to help anyone in any way at all i cant see it, it looks like everybody feels vindicated, on both sides of the argument, so maybe that's great and they can all shut up about jews again asap.
> View attachment 236443


To clarify, of course, that isn't Diane (sp.!) Abbott.


----------



## tommers (Oct 29, 2020)

bimble said:


> i should ban myself from the internet for the rest of today, this sort of thing seems to be everywhere, again.   If this report was supposed to help anyone in any way at all i cant see it, it looks like everybody feels vindicated, on both sides of the argument, so maybe that's great and they can all shut up about jews again asap.
> View attachment 236443



FFS.


----------



## andysays (Oct 29, 2020)

bimble said:


> i should ban myself from the internet for the rest of today, this sort of thing seems to be everywhere, again.   If this report was supposed to help anyone in any way at all i cant see it, it looks like everybody feels vindicated, on both sides of the argument, so maybe that's great and they can all shut up about jews again asap.
> View attachment 236443


Has Corbyn responded to that?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 29, 2020)

andysays said:


> Has Corbyn responded to that?


I would hope not, given that it is a random anti-Semite hiding behind an obvious pseudonym with somebody else's photo.


----------



## bimble (Oct 29, 2020)

nah that was just some twit, not of any consequence, i only picked it out cos its funny. Most of the stuff isnt funny, obvs, just like groundhog day.


----------



## Cloo (Oct 29, 2020)

bimble said:


> The defensive derision from some quarters is pretty grim tbh, as are the gloating people (on my twitter) shouting we told you so take that etc. Just depressing and pointless the whole thing.


I feel exactly the same way. I'm exhausted by the gloaters, and by the people going 'But here's this Jewish Labour activist saying _he _never experienced any antisemitism' (from people who'd never tolerate it if, I dunno, a Tory pulled out a person of colour to say 'I've never been harrassed by the police') and so on.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 29, 2020)

Light blue touch-paper and retire...


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Oct 29, 2020)

brogdale said:


> View attachment 236447


Despicable: but shows the need for the Left to opposeStarmer unequivocally


----------



## andysays (Oct 29, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I would hope not, given that it is a random anti-Semite hiding behind an obvious pseudonym with somebody else's photo.


I realise that, I certainly didn't think it was actually Diane Abbott.

But why shouldn't Corbyn respond and challenge that sort of shit?


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 29, 2020)

Larry O'Hara said:


> Despicable: but shows the need for the Left to opposeStarmer unequivocally


Shows the need for a working class left to be outside the Labour Party imo


----------



## Sprocket. (Oct 29, 2020)

Hopefully the unions will finally stop funding the jokers.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 29, 2020)

ffs


----------



## sleaterkinney (Oct 29, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Do you really, hand on heart, believe this is a possibility, though? One of the saddest ironies of this mess is that a politician who had spent his whole political career campaigning against racism ended up being smeared as a racist when he was up against a party led by an actual racist.


I don’t know. What did you make of him saying Zionists didn’t get the English sense of humour?. I think he has a blind spot on this.


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Oct 29, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Shows the need for a working class left to be outside the Labour Party imo


That’s a good point that has some merit: however (sadly) I think that due to the complexity of civil society in the West (nod to Gramsci) Parliament cannot simply be ignored.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 29, 2020)

andysays said:


> I realise that, I certainly didn't think it was actually Diane Abbott.
> 
> But why shouldn't Corbyn respond and challenge that sort of shit?


Why reward them with a response? Don't feed the trolls, basically, which goes doubly for a politician.


----------



## Knotted (Oct 29, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> So if I've got this right (sorry, I'm not going to read it), the report ends up criticising Corbyn for taking action against anti-Semitism when he perceived that the party processes had failed. And that action is itself evidence of the danger that complaints might be treated in an anti-Semitic manner.
> 
> I'm almost impressed. Kafka would be proud.



That's my reading of it. To be fair there are also example of interference going the other way eg. Christine Shawcroft with the Alan Bull affair if you remember it.


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 29, 2020)

Larry O'Hara said:


> That’s a good point that has some merit: however (sadly) I think that due to the complexity of civil society in the West (nod to Gramsci) Parliament cannot simply be ignored.


I completely agree


----------



## inva (Oct 29, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Why reward them with a response?


Because they think he agrees? They're not trying to provoke him, they think they're on the same side. Corbyn was never strong enough on that, never seemed to really recognise what anti-semitism is on the left and how it works and the sharp lines needed were never drawn.


----------



## andysays (Oct 29, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Why reward them with a response?


Yeah, why should the former leader of the Labour party do anything to challenge blatant antisemitism from anyone claiming to support him?

Do you not think that approach might have contributed in any way to the current fucked up situation both he and his party are in?


----------



## Petcha (Oct 29, 2020)

I haven’t really been following this but is the general consensus on here that Corbyn is anti Semitic? I thought he was anti Zionist. Two separate issues, no?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 29, 2020)

Initial report from the BBC is short.



> *Labour has suspended former leader Jeremy Corbyn after an inquiry found the party was "responsible for unlawful acts of harassment and discrimination" during his time in charge.*
> The UK's human rights watchdog identified "serious failings" in dealing with anti-Jewish racism.
> And the watchdog said Mr Corbyn's office had "politically interfered" in the complaints process.
> Mr Corbyn insisted he did "everything [he] could" to tackle the issue.



"And the watchdog said Mr Corbyn's office had "politically interfered" in the complaints process."

How many readers will take from that report that Corbyn had interfered in the process in order to act against people for anti-Semitism?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 29, 2020)

andysays said:


> Yeah, why should the former leader of the Labour party do anything to challenge blatant antisemitism from anyone claiming to support him?
> 
> Do you not think that approach might have contributed in any way to the current fucked up situation both he and his party are in?


No I don't. You're being ridiculous. How many cretinous trolls with clearly false names pretending to be someone else (in this case a close friend of Corbyn) do you think there are?


----------



## bimble (Oct 29, 2020)

Oh god. They’ve suspended him for his statement today?


----------



## TopCat (Oct 29, 2020)

They will lose a lot of members and resources over this decision.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 29, 2020)

TopCat said:


> They will lose a lot of members and resources over this decision.


Door-knockers and leaflet pushers.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 29, 2020)

They took the whip away too.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 29, 2020)

Cunts


----------



## maomao (Oct 29, 2020)

Well I won't be wasting the opportunity to draw a penis on a ballot paper again. Fuck Labour.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 29, 2020)

The millionaire Starmer can pay for the future campaigns. Unite wont be.


----------



## scifisam (Oct 29, 2020)

Wonderful. Labour is totally fucked now, so the Tories can sit comfortably and not have to worry about the next election.



andysays said:


> Yeah, why should the former leader of the Labour party do anything to challenge blatant antisemitism from anyone claiming to support him?
> 
> Do you not think that approach might have contributed in any way to the current fucked up situation both he and his party are in?



I hope you're trolling because otherwise that's the stupidest thing I've read on the internet this week.


----------



## teqniq (Oct 29, 2020)

What a car crash.


----------



## Mr Moose (Oct 29, 2020)

It was madness for Corbyn to keep on going to the last General Election. This was never going to go away, never be survivable.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Oct 29, 2020)

So, at a time when the country is being led by a shambolic government and facing the dual crisis of covid and a looming no deal brexit, Labour choose to shoot themselves in the face. Brilliant.


----------



## two sheds (Oct 29, 2020)

sleaterkinney said:


> I don’t know. What did you make of him saying Zionists didn’t get the English sense of humour?. I think he has a blind spot on this.



That's not exactly what he said though is it?


----------



## mauvais (Oct 29, 2020)

teqniq said:


> What a car crash.


Should have stuck to hitting cyclists.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Oct 29, 2020)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> So, at a time when the country is being led by a shambolic government and facing the dual crisis of covid and a looming no deal brexit, Labour choose to shoot themselves in the face. Brilliant.



Why change the last ten years behaviour?


----------



## planetgeli (Oct 29, 2020)

Responding to the news Jeremy Corbyn has been suspended from the Labour party, the Conservative party co-chairman Amanda Milling tweeted: “Many will be asking themselves why it took this long to act.

“This morning [Sir Keir Starmer] failed to say seven times that he would take action against Corbyn and now he has been pushed to do so. Hardly leadership.”


"Lick my boots harder Keith."

"Certainly Amanda"


----------



## LDC (Oct 29, 2020)

Petcha said:


> I haven’t really been following this but is the general consensus on here that Corbyn is anti Semitic? I thought he was anti Zionist. Two separate issues, no?



It's a _very_ long discussion... My very short answer is yes, they're 2 different things, but they sometimes can and do overlap.

And it's possible (as in Corbyn's case IMO) to think of yourself as not anti-Semitic, and also act in ways consistent with a general anti-racist stance, yet due to having a long standing politics of campist anti-imperialism combined with the sometimes complex and subtle ways anti-Semitism can sometimes be articulated have some questionable positions and blind spots with this issue.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 29, 2020)

Starmer told reporters: “If - after all the pain, all the grief, and all the evidence in this report - there are still those who think there’s no problem with antisemitism in the Labour party, that it’s all exaggerated, or a factional attack, then, frankly, you are part of the problem too.

“And you should be nowhere near the Labour party either.”


----------



## oryx (Oct 29, 2020)

teqniq said:


> What a car crash.


Indeed.

Exodus of members, significant union funding loss, more rows and division all likely, while, despite the bigger car crash that is the response to Covid, austerity, Brexit etc etc the Tories sit comfortably on their 80 seat majority.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 29, 2020)

Conservative government for at least the next nine years. Probably fifteen.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 29, 2020)

two sheds said:


> That's not exactly what he said though is it?


How dare you question this.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 29, 2020)

Sprocket. said:


> Hopefully the unions will finally stop funding the jokers.


A Labour party split not totally impossible here i reckon...stranger things


----------



## Wilf (Oct 29, 2020)

Fwiw, I do think there was and is both an active and a casual anti-Semitism on the left that infected Labour. I also think the right have played the situation. A not exactly startling position, I just wanted to say that to show I'm not dismissive of the report or the issue when I say this is a disaster for the Labour Party, with Corbyn's suspension but even more so the position taken that to minimise the issue/report is itself an act of antisemitism. Without looking, there were up to 600k members a couple of years ago, though that number was already dropping. Where will they be in 12 months? Who would have joined anyway - those _inspired by a starmer leadership_?

It's just a fucking mess at the very point you need an organised left. I'm not into Parliamentary politics, but I don't see this necessarily boosts those wanting something outside the Labour Party. No doubt there will be attempts to create some kind of left electoral party, which will come to nothing or at best will founder on the first past the post the system. Nor does it boost the notion of community organising, just adds to the doom and gloom (meaning specifically the suspension of Corbyn and the closing off of the Labour left that it represents, not the report itself). Perhaps the most depressing thing is that the left hasn't stomped on anti-Semitism itself.


----------



## Brainaddict (Oct 29, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Starmer told reporters: “If - after all the pain, all the grief, and all the evidence in this report - there are still those who think there’s no problem with antisemitism in the Labour party, that it’s all exaggerated, or a factional attack, then, frankly, you are part of the problem too.


Interesting dishonesty to the phrasing there. Corbyn didn't say there's NO problem with antisemitism in the Labour Party. He said it had been overplayed for political gain. Which I do think is true - while also recognising that what antisemitism exists needs to be dealt with. Though it was also probably unwise for Corbyn to pipe up at all, but that's him all over. What a clusterfuck.


----------



## teqniq (Oct 29, 2020)

ska invita said:


> A Labour party split not totally impossible here i reckon...stranger things


Stranger things indeed:


----------



## LDC (Oct 29, 2020)

Half a million members by Sunday dinnertime, then 2 new socialist parties with 250,000 members each by Monday breakfast time.


----------



## teqniq (Oct 29, 2020)

That will mainly be the trouble.


----------



## bimble (Oct 29, 2020)

they purportedly suspended him for this bit of what he said today?


if that's the case they'd have to suspend a lot of people.


----------



## Brainaddict (Oct 29, 2020)

I think it would be enormously stupid, like monumentally thick, to launch a new party over an argument about antisemitism. If they want to do it (I don't think they do) they would be well advised to wait a few months at least and then launch a party over actual socialist principles. But everyone seems to have lost their fucking minds over this, so who knows?

I just had an argument with a very Labour left colleague who is angry with me now for admitting there is any antisemitism in Labour at all. She thought the only response was to deny it entirely. Sigh.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Oct 29, 2020)

This shit is why the left doesn’t win.


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Oct 29, 2020)

ska invita said:


> A Labour party split not totally impossible here i reckon...stranger things


Not sure about that, but taking the long view, suspending JC clarifies the battle lines. What was so dispiriting about the 1980s was the way many ‘Leftists’ like Livingstone, Blunkett and evening Kinnock (was in the Tribune Group once) chose to accommodate to the LabourRight. Expelling JC should stiffen the resolve of some: will be interesting to see which way Andrew Fisher &Laura Parker go.


----------



## Combustible (Oct 29, 2020)

ska invita said:


> A Labour party split not totally impossible here i reckon...stranger things


Only if the Labour left really wanted to shoot themselves in the other foot. Why if you wanted to break away and form your own party, would you use a report on antisemitism which (rightly or wrongly) you came out on the wrong side of as the catalyst. It's like with Rebecca Long Bailey, it was much more convenient for Starmer that he could get rid of her on the basis of antisemitism. In her case she probably didn't forsee that would be the outcome, but for the others why would they pick this hill to die on.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Oct 29, 2020)

two sheds said:


> That's not exactly what he said though is it?


What did he say then?


----------



## Lord Camomile (Oct 29, 2020)

TopCat said:


> The millionaire Starmer can pay for the future campaigns. Unite wont be.


Was just thinking, will be very interesting to see how unions respond to this.

My own, UNISON, backed Starmer, but Corbyn was _very _popular with the rank and file, as you'd imagine.

And, the ballot for our General Secretary election opened yesterday...


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 29, 2020)

Brainaddict said:


> Interesting dishonesty to the phrasing there. Corbyn didn't say there's NO problem with antisemitism in the Labour Party. He said it had been overplayed for political gain. Which I do think is true - while also recognising that what antisemitism exists needs to be dealt with. Though it was also probably unwise for Corbyn to pipe up at all, but that's him all over. What a clusterfuck.


While people can argue over the scale of the problem, the bit about it being overstated for political gain by political opponents and much of the media is obviously true. 'Would Jews be safe in a Labour Britain?' and the like. 

And Starmer will know that as well, of course. He has the backbone of an amoeba. What he appears not to see is that, by doing this, he dooms his own political ambitions.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 29, 2020)

sleaterkinney said:


> What did he say then?


Why don't you go and find the quote? You brought it up.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 29, 2020)

teqniq said:


> Stranger things indeed:
> 
> View attachment 236453



Instead of that, and instead of endless amounts of time and energy spent flogging the dead labour horse, how about we focus on the need to rebuild trade unions and emphasise rank and file control? How about community based movements for tenants and unemployed workers rights and against working class immiseration.

What about the question of the need to develop political education and the spread of knowledge?

We don’t need to win a never ending or purpose yet another unsuccessful battle for the ‘soul’ of the Labour Party to do any of that....we don’t need another new ‘workers’ party lash up to do that either.


----------



## Wilf (Oct 29, 2020)

My criticism of the Corbyn thing was that it never became a movement and didn't develop community roots i.e. it never truly breached the idea of parliamentary politics or the organisational notion of what being a party means.  They also fucked up Brexit by, well, just fucking about and never getting anywhere (until the next meeting of... our position is... 5 tests.... however...), not respecting the leave vote.  Of course the real fuck up was putting starmer anywhere near the Brexit policy, but shit leadership from Corbyn.  Consequence: 'GET BREXIT DONE'>>> TORY LANDSLIDE. And here we are.

I doubt that if the above had been different that anti-Semitism would have been wiped out in Labour's ranks, it's an issue of the wider left. However there was a chance of a different kind of politics, beyond mere activism.  Not quite sure why I'm typing all that, I'm certainly not doing it minimise the anti-Semitism that Labour failed to root out.  It all seems to merge though and it feels like a point to say that Corbynism is now dead and gone.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 29, 2020)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> This shit is why the left doesn’t win.



The fact less than half of Labour MPs are on the left is why the Labour left doesnt win


----------



## Brainaddict (Oct 29, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> And Starmer will know that as well, of course. He has the backbone of an amoeba. What he appears not to see is that, by doing this, he dooms his own political ambitions.


Alas I don't know if that's true. If he's truly returning to Blairism (and it seems he is determined to do just that) then the route to power is not through a mass base but through getting the right wing media onside. The horrible thing is, it might work. Again.

E2a: And if that is his strategy, then he was just looking for an excuse to savage Corbyn. Which is why I thought Corbyn should have shut up, even if what he said was technically true.


----------



## bimble (Oct 29, 2020)

A few minutes before Corbyn's statement comes out ("the scale of the problem was dramatically overstated by our enemies and the media".).Starmer stood there and said  if..  [you still think] it's all exaggerated, or a factional attack, then .. you should be nowhere near the Labour party either"  so he kind of was fucked. No way he actually_ wanted _to do this, he knows it will damage the party and so him. What a massive fuckup. 
Tbh its the worst possible outcome even just from the perspective of a jew who wants there to be less of the conspiracist antisemitism not more. thoroughly depressing.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 29, 2020)

bimble said:


> No way he actually_ wanted _to do this, he knows it will damage the party and so him.


Im not so sure - the labour right would love it if everyone walked and left them to it


----------



## Wilf (Oct 29, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Instead of that, and instead of endless amounts of time and energy spent flogging the dead labour horse, how about we focus on the need to rebuild trade unions and emphasise rank and file control? How about community based movements for tenants and unemployed workers rights and against working class immiseration.
> 
> What about the question of the need to develop political education and the spread of knowledge?
> 
> We don’t need to win a never ending or successful battle for the ‘soul’ of the Labour Party to do any of that....


This. And what a fucking waste of time, energy, lifeforce and everything else the Corbyn thing was.  I know people on here with solid principles and ideas went into it, so I'm not chip pissing, but fucking hell. Even today, the fragments of the labour left will be thinking how to challenge the suspension - and then the next suspension and the next one. Last twitches of the dead horse.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 29, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Dont be so sure - the labour right would love it if everyone walked and left them to it



Stay and fight...Zzzzzzz


----------



## tommers (Oct 29, 2020)

Cunts.


----------



## Raheem (Oct 29, 2020)

tommers said:


> Cunts.


Word association thread ----->


----------



## tommers (Oct 29, 2020)

Raheem said:


> Word association thread ----->



Wankers.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 29, 2020)

Wilf said:


> This. And what a fucking waste of time, energy, lifeforce and everything else the Corbyn thing was.  I know people on here with solid principles and ideas went into it, so I'm not chip pissing, but fucking hell. Even today, the fragments of the labour left will be thinking how to challenge the suspension - and then the next suspension and the next one. Last twitches of the dead horse.


It failed.  

That's not necessarily the same thing as saying it was wrong to try.


----------



## Wilf (Oct 29, 2020)

Presume the suspension is, effectively, just starmer saying 'you are suspended'?  No obvious sign of any process behind it.  Doesn't make much difference in the end, but I suspect starmer was sat waiting for Corbyn's response, with a suspension ready to roll.


----------



## charlie mowbray (Oct 29, 2020)

Except it was wrong.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 29, 2020)

Wilf said:


> This. And what a fucking waste of time, energy, lifeforce and everything else the Corbyn thing was.  I know people on here with solid principles and ideas went into it, so I'm not chip pissing, but fucking hell. Even today, the fragments of the labour left will be thinking how to challenge the suspension - and then the next suspension and the next one. Last twitches of the dead horse.


it's not the last twitches of the dead horse, sadly. the horse is alive. it's just one of its legs is in a shitty state.


----------



## Wilf (Oct 29, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> It failed.
> 
> That's not necessarily the same thing as saying it was wrong to try.


I think the failure was in the nature of what Corbynism was. Some kind of attempt to go beyond 'being a party', organising in communities for example, might have limited the number of red wall constituencies that went blue this time.  But that's just a specific outcome. I think the real problem was that it suffered from the twin limits of social democracy and labourism.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 29, 2020)

Stay and fight (2) Zzzzzz


----------



## Brainaddict (Oct 29, 2020)

Wilf said:


> I think the failure was in the nature of what Corbynism was. Some kind of attempt to go beyond 'being a party', organising in communities for example, might have limited the number of red wall constituencies that went blue this time.  But that's just a specific outcome. I think the real problem was that it suffered from the twin limits of social democracy and labourism.


Yep, and it's sad cos there was a tendency within Momentum that wanted to be a social movement embedded in communities, but that tendency did not win out. It became a bloc voting machine within the party. I place some of the blame for the failure of the Corbyn project on the strange long afterlife of authoritarian leftism, in which it was okay to, for instance, turn a blind eye to the fact that Momentum was controlled by a handful of people. And in which it was more important to stake out your anti-imperialist credentials by regularly denouncing Israel than to actually work with the issues most people in the UK need to grapple with. There are days when I feel the left really can't go anywhere until the remnants of that type of leftism are stamped out. Alas, as I posted on another thread, they seem to be having a resurgence instead.


----------



## platinumsage (Oct 29, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Stay and fight (2) Zzzzzz




Like he wants party unity


----------



## Mr Moose (Oct 29, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Conservative government for at least the next nine years. Probably fifteen.



Maybe, but maybe not. The next election is four years of Tory whoppers away.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 29, 2020)

platinumsage said:


> Like he wants party unity


You're a bit of a prick, aren't you?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 29, 2020)

bimble said:


> A few minutes before Corbyn's statement comes out ("the scale of the problem was dramatically overstated by our enemies and the media".).Starmer stood there and said  if..  [you still think] it's all exaggerated, or a factional attack, then .. you should be nowhere near the Labour party either"  so he kind of was fucked. No way he actually_ wanted _to do this, he knows it will damage the party and so him. What a massive fuckup.
> Tbh its the worst possible outcome even just from the perspective of a jew who wants there to be less of the conspiracist antisemitism not more. thoroughly depressing.



The readiness with which he's leapt on any opportunity to get shot of other lefties on even more spurious grounds suggests he probably did want to do it.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Oct 29, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Why don't you go and find the quote? You brought it up.


I have the quote, I'm asking how I misrepresented him.


----------



## Mr Moose (Oct 29, 2020)

tommers said:


> Cunts.



Arseholes, bastards, fucking cunts and pricks.


----------



## two sheds (Oct 29, 2020)

sleaterkinney said:


> I have the quote, I'm asking how I misrepresented him.



What is it and what were the circumstances? Your post said he was referring to "Zionists", i.e. Zionists in general - is that true?


----------



## Wilf (Oct 29, 2020)

Brainaddict said:


> Yep, and it's sad cos there was a tendency within Momentum that wanted to be a social movement embedded in communities, but that tendency did not win out. It became a bloc voting machine within the party. I place some of the blame for the failure of the Corbyn project on the strange long afterlife of authoritarian leftism, in which it was okay to, for instance, turn a blind eye to the fact that Momentum was controlled by a handful of people. And in which it was more important to stake out your anti-imperialist credentials by regularly denouncing Israel than to actually work with the issues most people in the UK need to grapple with. There are days when I feel the left really can't go anywhere until the remnants of that type of leftism are stamped out. Alas, as I posted on another thread, they seem to be having a resurgence instead.


This, absolutely. And the irony is the suspension of Corbyn will be a boost to those voices.


----------



## scifisam (Oct 29, 2020)

bimble said:


> A few minutes before Corbyn's statement comes out ("the scale of the problem was dramatically overstated by our enemies and the media".).Starmer stood there and said  if..  [you still think] it's all exaggerated, or a factional attack, then .. you should be nowhere near the Labour party either"  so he kind of was fucked. No way he actually_ wanted _to do this, he knows it will damage the party and so him. What a massive fuckup.
> Tbh its the worst possible outcome even just from the perspective of a jew who wants there to be less of the conspiracist antisemitism not more. thoroughly depressing.



Really? He would have been jumping around with glee if he weren't afraid it would mess up his hair. If it drives more lefties away, that's a good thing as far as he's concerned.


----------



## Southlondon (Oct 29, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Stay and fight...Zzzzzzz


I’ve been a member and activist for for around 44 years, and would have argued back and given reasons for joining Labour to fight from within, but for me the battle is over. My belief is now that The reformist left can never hope to gain power via the Labour Party because the entrenched right wing of Labour  proved again they are willing to sabotage and destroy their own party’s chances of winning rather than risk a left of centre victory. The Labour Party as with any mass movement will always be a coalition otherwise you’d end up like those little lefty paper selling partys but      Starmer has now shown complete contempt for those of us who campaigned tirelessly for a corbyn-led Labour victory, all the while our efforts were being undermined by the party machine and and right wing MPs. 
ive never seen the attraction of joining one of the minuscule socialist grouplets selling papers to each other on pointless marches ( I did my stint of marching through the empty streets of the west end over the years and apart from the poll tax March which possibly had some impact, it was wasted effort), or arguing the finer points of Trotskyism totally detached from working class communities, and the Green Party are shite, so I will probably just step up support for a couple of single issue campaigns starting with the Palestinian solidarity campaign. 
Corbyn is a lifelong anti racist, the party machine obstructed him at every opportunity. Solidarity with corbyn who is a decent man, dedicated to causes he believes in and a principled man. He goes not deserve to be tarnished as an antisemite and a racist at the end of a long life as an anti racist campaigner.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 29, 2020)

Southlondon said:


> Corbyn is a lifelong anti racist, the party machine obstructed him at every opportunity. Solidarity with corbyn who is a decent man, dedicated to causes he believes in and a principled man. He goes not deserve to be tarnished as an antisemite and a racist at the end of a long life as an anti racist campaigner.


This. Whatever else, this.


----------



## bimble (Oct 29, 2020)

scifisam said:


> Really? He would have been jumping around with glee if he weren't afraid it would mess up his hair. If it drives more lefties away, that's a good thing as far as he's concerned.


I don’t understand how it helps him, just makes the party look ridiculous and makes loads of people leave? Idk.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 29, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Stay and fight...Zzzzzzz


----------



## Wilf (Oct 29, 2020)

guardian reporting the campaign group are leaning against resigning the whip in solidarity (14:47 on the link):








						Jeremy Corbyn to fight suspension from Labour after EHRC antisemitism report comments – as it happened
					

Former party leader has whip removed over comments following publication of Equality and Human Rights Commission inquiry




					www.theguardian.com
				



Can't work out whether that's a good idea or not, though mainly I don't care, which is a measure of where we are at.


----------



## Wilf (Oct 29, 2020)

Wilf said:


> guardian reporting the campaign group are leaning against resigning the whip in solidarity (14:47 on the link):
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Also:



> Constituency Labour Parties have been warned by the party’s general secretary not to “question the competence” of the Equality and Human Rights Commission or reject its report, reports Labour List, the Labour-supporting website funded by unions and others.
> 
> Labour List’s editor, Sienna Rodgers, writes that David Evans – who was appointed as the party’s general secretary under Keir Starmer’s leadership – wrote to local party chairs and secretaries.
> Evans wrote:
> ...


----------



## Brainaddict (Oct 29, 2020)

bimble said:


> I don’t understand how it helps him, just makes the party look ridiculous and makes loads of people leave? Idk.


But the Labour right never wanted those people in the party in the first place. They made that clear even as they were joining, accusing them of being interlopers, entryists, sabatoeurs, etc etc. I think they want to be shot of them. The party won before with only a small membership and it can do it again.


----------



## maomao (Oct 29, 2020)

Brainaddict said:


> But the Labour right never wanted those people in the party in the first place. They made that clear even as they were joining, accusing them of being interlopers, entryists, sabatoeurs, etc etc. I think they want to be shot of them. The party won before with only a small membership and it can do it again.


Yes, look how badly the Tories have been fucked by having a membership with opinions. That's the last thing Labour wants.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Oct 29, 2020)

two sheds said:


> What is it and what were the circumstances? Your post said he was referring to "Zionists", i.e. Zionists in general - is that true?


Some Zionists rather than all Zionists - is that it?


----------



## two sheds (Oct 29, 2020)

Well if you answer the question and give the quote we can see whether what you said was right.


----------



## Shechemite (Oct 29, 2020)

JTG said:


> The idea that AS was absent from Labour before 2015 and between 2015 & 2020 was confined exclusively to one particular section of the party is
> a) quite nonsensical
> b) motivated by factional politics and not at all by a desire to combat anti-semitism



which isn’t what the EHRC have said, or what Jews have said.

but you carry on fella


----------



## Wilf (Oct 29, 2020)

Just trying to think, in say the postwar period, is this the first suspension (or expulsion/resignation) of a major party ex-leader?  Trying to remember whether any of the freaks who led the tory party after major jumped ship to the Brexit party. Don't think so. Even back in the sdp period, Labour only lost ex-Cabinet ministers (Owen for example), never a leader.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Oct 29, 2020)

two sheds said:


> Well if you answer the question and give the quote we can see whether what you said was right.


I'll amend my post:



sleaterkinney said:


> I don’t know. What did you make of him saying some Zionists didn’t get the English sense of humour?. I think he has a blind spot on this.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Oct 29, 2020)

Brainaddict said:


> But the Labour right never wanted those people in the party in the first place. They made that clear even as they were joining, accusing them of being interlopers, entryists, sabatoeurs, etc etc. I think they want to be shot of them. The party won before with only a small membership and it can do it again.


Exactly, the Labour right want these people to leave more than they themselves want to leave! Losing those members will be good news to the current lot.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 29, 2020)

id expect Corbyn to win his case against this...?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 29, 2020)

sleaterkinney said:


> I'll amend my post:


you're not covering yourself in glory here, are you? 


He said [referring to a speech by a Palestinian ambassador about Palestinian history]:



> This was dutifully recorded by the, thankfully silent, Zionists who were in the audience on that occasion, and then came up and berated him afterwards for what he had said. They clearly have two problems. One is that they don’t want to study history, and secondly, having lived in this country for a very long time, probably all their lives, don’t understand English irony either. Manuel does understand English irony, and uses it very effectively. So I think they needed two lessons, which we can perhaps help them with



It appears to be a bit of a crap thing to say on the face of it, but the context, Corbyn later said, was that he had:



> defended the Palestinian ambassador in the face of what I thought were deliberate misrepresentations by people for whom English was a first language, when it isn’t for the ambassador



And he also said that he had used the term Zionism:



> in the accurate political sense and not as a euphemism for Jewish people ... I am now more careful with how I might use the term ‘Zionist’ because a once self-identifying political term has been increasingly hijacked by antisemites as code for Jews.”



Worse than Hitler.


----------



## Brainaddict (Oct 29, 2020)

Thing is, if all  you care about is winning then the Blair strategy is a very tempting route to power. You go centrist/right enough to get some right wing papers on your side, then rather than having a proper base that believes in particular things (or a commited membership) you draw together an electoral alliance of leftists who can't bear to vote for the other lot + centrists who believe in your managerial strategy + soft right wingers who see you as more competent (not hard with Johnson as PM). It worked for Blair. The only flaw in the plan is the centre has been shot to fuck in most of the world in recent years. But the centrist politicians have been in denial about that and still don't recognise it as having happened. So I think Starmer thinks he is onto a safe strategy (rinse and repeat Blairism) when in fact it is quite a risky strategy because the world has changed. Anyway, getting off track here.


----------



## tommers (Oct 29, 2020)

I like that the final straw was him saying that his political opponents used something for political gain. 

Monster.


----------



## Shechemite (Oct 29, 2020)

Larry O'Hara said:


> the very fact he was close to Jewish Voice for Labour underlines he was not anti-Semitic. What his Zionist critics didn’t like is that he talked to the wrong kind of Jews: ie anti-Zionists



beautiful


----------



## two sheds (Oct 29, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> beautiful



why's that?


----------



## TopCat (Oct 29, 2020)

sleaterkinney said:


> I have the quote, I'm asking how I misrepresented him.


So put up the actual quote, then what you wrote and spot the difference.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 29, 2020)

if true...


----------



## brogdale (Oct 29, 2020)

ska invita said:


> if true...



Gonna get even more messy, innit?


----------



## campanula (Oct 29, 2020)

Have been reading  bedtime book to grand-daughter this week. 'My Friend, the Suffragette'  - a political primer appropriate for a 9 year old...and oddly illuminating (for me) at this moment of furious anger and sinking helplessness.  With intense factionalism  within the suffrage movement and the potent divisions which have always excluded the working class voice, it is helpful to recall how we (always) struggle outside of the established party system. Through mutual aid, grassroots, direct activism, disobedience and subversion. We are not getting any sort of justice under a LP...and I would honestly welcome efforts and energies not being further wasted on  vacuous opportunists who are seemingly content to rake their salaries and expenses and do fuck-all for their constituents. 

'My friend, the Suffragette' is awfully tedious, but grand-daughter nods off before I have read more than 3 letters (it is an epistolary novel).


----------



## Wilf (Oct 29, 2020)

ska invita said:


> if true...



Comes to something when a party fucks up a stitch up.

Meanwhile, the government is allowing thousands of deaths to unroll.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 29, 2020)

Wilf said:


> Comes to something when a party fucks up a stitch up.
> 
> Meanwhile, the government is allowing thousands of deaths to unroll.


Not to mention the Tory party's great animus against Muslims


----------



## ska invita (Oct 29, 2020)

ska invita said:


> if true...



well, he was the director of prosecutions


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 29, 2020)

campanula said:


> Have been reading  bedtime book to grand-daughter this week. 'My Friend, the Suffragette'  - a political primer appropriate for a 9 year old...and oddly illuminating (for me) at this moment of furious anger and sinking helplessness.  With intense factionalism  within the suffrage movement and the potent divisions which have always excluded the working class voice, it is helpful to recall how we (always) struggle outside of the established party system. Through mutual aid, grassroots, direct activism, disobedience and subversion. We are not getting any sort of justice under a LP...and I would honestly welcome efforts and energies not being further wasted on  vacuous opportunists who are seemingly content to rake their salaries and expenses and do fuck-all for their constituents.
> 
> 'My friend, the Suffragette' is awfully tedious, but grand-daughter nods off before I have read more than 3 letters (it is an epistolary novel).


throughout my entire adult life the left has farted on about regaining control of the labour party

and then when they do they give us some sort of pinkish version of 'red' jim callaghan


----------



## two sheds (Oct 29, 2020)

... which to the media is raving communism and therefore unelectable


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 29, 2020)

Lucky there's nothing much going on in the country that might require a functional opposition holding the government to account instead of engaging in an endless, absurd factional struggle isn't it?


----------



## sleaterkinney (Oct 29, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> It appears to be a bit of a crap thing to say on the face of it, but the context, Corbyn later said, was that


If you want to give him the benefit of the doubt that's fine, I think with this and the mural the best case scenario is that he's blind to it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 29, 2020)

two sheds said:


> ... which to the media is raving communism and therefore unelectable


It's impossible to imagine sir keir starmer standing on this manifesto October 1974  Labour Party Manifesto -


----------



## Plumdaff (Oct 29, 2020)

> Starmer told reporters: “If - after all the pain, all the grief, and all the evidence in this report - there are still those who think there’s no problem with antisemitism in the Labour party, that it’s all exaggerated, or a factional attack, then, frankly, you are part of the problem too.



No-one's said that (bar some fuckwits on Twitter) have they? That word 'all' is going to make some lawyers on both sides a fuck lot of money isn't it?

A profoundly sad, dispiriting day. I'm not sure Labour will ever form a UK government again. The left defeated. The country desperately needing a united opposition with some radical ideas. The serious fight against antisemitism inevitably gets caught up in the worst of bad faith self-serving bullshit. Worried what will result of that, in the long run.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 29, 2020)

sleaterkinney said:


> If you want to give him the benefit of the doubt that's fine, I think with this and the mural the best case scenario is that he's blind to it.


Do you reject his explanation? If so, why?

In the stuff I quoted, _he himself_ says that he is now more careful about when he uses the word 'zionist' because of the way it is now used as code by antisemites. How is that 'blind'????

You've been fundamentally dishonest here. Not good.


----------



## Shechemite (Oct 29, 2020)

If a (successful) movement against racism is what ‘defeated the left’, it doesn’t say much of  the Left



Plumdaff said:


> No-one's said that (bar some fuckwits on Twitter) have they? That word 'all' is going to make some lawyers on both sides a fuck lot of money isn't it?
> 
> A profoundly sad, dispiriting day. I'm not sure Labour will ever form a UK government again. The left defeated. The country desperately needing a united opposition with some radical ideas. The serious fight against antisemitism inevitably gets caught up in the worst of bad faith self-serving bullshit. Worried what will result of that, in the long run.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 29, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> If a (successful) movement against racism is what ‘defeated the left’, it doesn’t say much of  the Left


Define successful


----------



## Shechemite (Oct 29, 2020)

TopCat said:


> transparently irrational and mad.
> 
> Are you taking your meds?



Have you taken yours?









						Corbyn fan faces jail after bombarding MPs with anti-Semitic abuse
					

Nicolas Nelson, 31, of Norfolk, targeted Dame Margaret Hodge, Dame Louise Ellman and Lord John Mann, who he called 'c****' and said should die.




					www.dailymail.co.uk


----------



## gsv (Oct 29, 2020)

Larry O'Hara said:


> the very fact he was close to Jewish Voice for Labour underlines he was not anti-Semitic.


No wonder – Jewish Voice for Labour was set up all the way back in 2017 to support the Corbyn leadership against allegations of anti-semitism. Compare with the submission by Jewish Labour Movement (set up in 1903) to the EHRC, that was damning to the core.



Larry O'Hara said:


> What his Zionist critics didn’t like is that he talked to the wrong kind of Jews: ie anti-Zionists


What his Jewish critics don't like is that he's an old-fashioned leftist anti-semite.


----------



## Shechemite (Oct 29, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Define successful



1) put the boot into a lot of racists 
2) resulted in a more developed analysis of racism (and how antisemitism fits into this)
3) antisemtism in Britain is more stigmatised than it was previously


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 29, 2020)

gsv said:


> No wonder – Jewish Voice for Labour was set up all the way back in 2017 to support the Corbyn leadership against allegations of anti-semitism. Compare with the submission by Jewish Labour Movement (set up in 1903) to the EHRC, that was damning to the core.


And here's what they have said today, repeating the false impression Starmer gave that Corbyn had denied anti-semitism.



> Denial of antisemitism is part of the problem. Keir Starmer made that clear and said that he would act and that it would have no place in the Labour Party. He has taken responsibility and the Labour Party has acted.




Not an accidental choice of words either.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Oct 29, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Do you reject his explanation? If so, why?
> 
> In the stuff I quoted, _he himself_ says that he is now more careful about when he uses the word 'zionist' because of the way it is now used as code by antisemites. How is that 'blind'????
> 
> You've been fundamentally dishonest here. Not good.


It’s the combination of labelling some people as zionists and saying that they don’t understand English irony that I have a problem with. It’s a strange thing for an anti racist to come out with.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 29, 2020)

gsv said:


> No wonder – Jewish Voice for Labour was set up all the way back in 2017 to support the Corbyn leadership against allegations of anti-semitism. Compare with the submission by Jewish Labour Movement (set up in 1903) to the EHRC, that was damning to the core.
> 
> 
> What his Jewish critics don't like is that he's an old-fashioned leftist anti-semite.


Having seen they have Margaret Hodge, the paedos' friend, as their parliamentary chair, their close association with the Israeli labour party and affiliation with all manner of Zionist organizations I suspect they would have had a good go at JC even if there hadn't been any cases of anti-semitism identified


----------



## Shechemite (Oct 29, 2020)

Has it ever occurred to the left that ordinary people actually quite like the Jews? And that by painting Jews as ‘white’ - and therefore not subject to _real racism_ (you know, the sort that the BAMEs get) - you just further advertise our virtue to those who aren’t into this ‘white lives don’t matter’ crap?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 29, 2020)

sleaterkinney said:


> It’s the combination of labelling some people as zionists and saying that they don’t understand English irony that I have a problem with. It’s a strange thing for an anti racist to come out with.


You can't be this thick. He was very precisely claiming that they did understand English irony.  This specific group of people who harranged the Palestinian ambassador with, in his opinion, a thoroughly dishonest interpretation of what he had said.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 29, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> 1) put the boot into a lot of racists
> 2) resulted in a more developed analysis of racism (and how antisemitism fits into this)
> 3) antisemtism in Britain is more stigmatised than it was previously


Could you expand points 1) and 2) pls, esp about the boot being put into racists and the development of this analysis of racism and how a-s fits into this.


----------



## two sheds (Oct 29, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Has it ever occurred to the left that ordinary people actually quite like the Jews? And that by painting Jews as ‘white’ - and therefore not subject to _real racism_ (you know, the sort that the BAMEs get) - you just further advertise our virtue to those who aren’t into this ‘white lives don’t matter’ crap?


Has it ever occurred to you that the overwhelming majority of the left  actually quite like the Jews, too? It's the far right that they need to be concerned about, and this whole shitshow increases the danger.


----------



## gsv (Oct 29, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> And here's what they have said today...stuff...
> 
> Not an accidental choice of words either.


I have absolutely no idea what you're getting at.


----------



## Rimbaud (Oct 29, 2020)

Labour Party surely going to split up over this.

There are 300,000 members who joined for Corbyn and a well organised left in Momentum. There's enough size and credibility to create a new party, larger than Labour, and take Union funding too. 

After the last two elections where the right of the party went out their way to lose, appeals to unity are going to ring pretty fucking hollow.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 29, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Has it ever occurred to the left that ordinary people actually quite like the Jews? And that by painting Jews as ‘white’ - and therefore *not subject to *_*real racism*_ (you know, the sort that the BAMEs get) - you just further advertise our virtue to those who aren’t into this ‘white lives don’t matter’ crap?


Who is claiming this?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 29, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Has it ever occurred to the left that ordinary people actually quite like the Jews? And that by painting Jews as ‘white’ and therefore not subject to _real racism_ (you know, the sort that the BAMEs get), you just further advertise our virtue to those who aren’t into this ‘white lives don’t matter’ crap?


No one has ever come up to me in a pub and told me how much they like the Jews

But I've encountered several people over the years who unprompted told me of their great dislike for them

Btw do you think there's no racism in the UK against Poles? They may be white but there's been vicious racist attacks against them since 2016


----------



## two sheds (Oct 29, 2020)

Rimbaud said:


> Labour Party surely going to split up over this.
> 
> There are 300,000 members who joined for Corbyn and a well organised left in Momentum. There's enough size and credibility to create a new party, larger than Labour, and take Union funding too.
> 
> After the last two elections where the right of the party went out their way to lose, appeals to unity are going to ring pretty fucking hollow.



But, but, but ... 

"Sir Keir *Starmer* said he visited Scotland to help "*unite* and unify" *Labour*, insisting it is time for the *party* to "pull together" and focus on the job in hand."


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 29, 2020)

two sheds said:


> But, but, but ...
> 
> "Sir Keir *Starmer* said he visited Scotland to help "*unite* and unify" *Labour*, insisting it is time for the *party* to "pull together" and focus on the job in hand."


I have him scheduled to visit grytviken in the next few months


----------



## teqniq (Oct 29, 2020)

Yes, funny that.


----------



## bimble (Oct 29, 2020)

two sheds said:


> Has it ever occurred to you that the overwhelming majority of the left actually quite like the Jews, too? It's the far right that they need to be concerned about, and this whole shitshow increases the danger.


we can be concerned about both at the same time! Its a skill we have developed, takes practice i suppose.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Oct 29, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> You can't be this thick. He was very precisely claiming that they did understand English irony.  This specific group of people who harranged the Palestinian ambassador with, in his opinion, a thoroughly dishonest interpretation of what he had said.


What?



> This was dutifully recorded by the, thankfully silent, Zionists who were in the audience on that occasion, and then came up and berated him afterwards for what he had said.
> They clearly have two problems. One is that they don’t want to study history, and secondly, having lived in this country for a very long time, probably all their lives, don’t understand English irony either.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 29, 2020)

sleaterkinney said:


> What?


Read the next bit I quoted about what he said of it later. They were, in his opinion, being disingenuous in pretending not to understand the irony that had been employed by the speaker in order to have a go at him. He himself is employing irony here in identifying their two problems.

I don't like that quote much. It's unpleasant, although I wasn't there to see how unpleasant the people who provoked it were. But it isn't what you're making it out to be.


----------



## agricola (Oct 29, 2020)

Rimbaud said:


> Labour Party surely going to split up over this.
> 
> There are 300,000 members who joined for Corbyn and a well organised left in Momentum. There's enough size and credibility to create a new party, larger than Labour, and take Union funding too.
> 
> After the last two elections where the right of the party went out their way to lose, appeals to unity are going to ring pretty fucking hollow.



I don't think its going to split - as you say there are enough people, who are organized enough, to take it back and ironically the ECHR's call for an independent complaints system is going to mean a purge from the right isn't (or shouldn't) going to be possible.

Plus of course Starmer winning the leadership election hasn't made the right any better at politics, any more popular inside or outside the party or most importantly twenty points ahead of the worst government of our lifetime.   In fact the tactic is probably to get people to quit, which is the same tactic as they tried in 2016 and were shocked to find didn't happen.


----------



## Leighsw2 (Oct 29, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> ....and therefore not subject to _real racism_ (you know, the sort that the BAMEs get) ....


"the BAMES"? what the fuck are you talking about?


----------



## two sheds (Oct 29, 2020)

bimble said:


> we can be concerned about both at the same time! Its a skill we have developed, takes practice i suppose.



Yes fair point. I'd only really known about the far right anti-semitism until I did that on-line course which talked about the anti-semitism because of Stalin.


----------



## Shechemite (Oct 29, 2020)

Leighsw2 said:


> "the BAMES"? what the fuck are you talking about?



‘Whiteness’ is the real racism.

BAMEs (a concept that excludes Jews) are victims of this real racism. 

As Jews aren’t BAME, it’s not racist to, for example, paint a mural of a bunch of Jews around a monopoly board under a Freemason image.

just as it’s not really racist to claim that Jews were the chef financiers of the slave trade.


----------



## Mr Moose (Oct 29, 2020)

Rimbaud said:


> Labour Party surely going to split up over this.
> 
> There are 300,000 members who joined for Corbyn and a well organised left in Momentum. There's enough size and credibility to create a new party, larger than Labour, and take Union funding too.
> 
> After the last two elections where the right of the party went out their way to lose, appeals to unity are going to ring pretty fucking hollow.



I think it will be more like it was when Militant got the heave ho. A schism, but Labour blunders on regardless. The membership voted for Starmer after all and I’ve been surprised to see how many former fans of JC are ready to say they were ‘wrong’ about him, which is probably as bad as idolising him in the first place. Neither POV reflects the reality anything but crudely.

If the union cash goes then, yes, Labour is screwed, but my guess is most of it won’t.


----------



## Chz (Oct 29, 2020)

teqniq said:


> Yes, funny that.
> 
> View attachment 236472


Ah yes, the "but Blair is a war criminal" argument. You know what? He is. Absolutely. Should rot in a cell somewhere. (preferably somewhere unpleasant)
What in the hell does that have to do with Corbyn's leadership and anti-semitism in the Labour Party? "Oh but look at this guy" is the least convincing argument there is. All that does is convince everyone that yes, there is a problem and Jeremy Corbyn was at the centre of it. Which I don't believe - I think he's utterly clueless in how to deal with this sort of thing, not complicit - but it just encourages it.


----------



## oryx (Oct 29, 2020)

Chz said:


> Ah yes, the "but Blair is a war criminal" argument. You know what? He is. Absolutely. Should rot in a cell somewhere. (preferably somewhere unpleasant)
> What in the hell does that have to do with Corbyn's leadership and anti-semitism in the Labour Party? "Oh but look at this guy" is the least convincing argument there is. All that does is convince everyone that yes, there is a problem and Jeremy Corbyn was at the centre of it. Which I don't believe - I think he's utterly clueless in how to deal with this sort of thing, not complicit - but it just encourages it.


I can see merits in both your and teqniq's arguments.

On the subject of Blair, what still concerns me, although it happened a long time ago, is that the depiction of Michael Howard as a pig (as crudely anti-semitic as you can get) happened on Blair's watch, and nothing came of it. So fucking hypocritical.


----------



## bimble (Oct 29, 2020)

Main thing I’m taking away from this whole shitshow of everyone talking about antisemitism on the left for the last several years is that it has not actually helped at all to either get people to spot it or to reduce its prevalence, i think it’s achieved the opposite. Good times.


----------



## Mr Moose (Oct 29, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> ‘Whiteness’ is the real racism.
> 
> BAMEs (a concept that excludes Jews) are victims of this real racism.
> 
> ...



I’d bet you hard cash most left wing people would see that mural as antisemitic and repulsive. Sadly JC didn’t, but we was lumbered with him because of Labour’s couple of decades of warmongering ineptitude.


----------



## tim (Oct 29, 2020)

Mr Moose said:


> Maybe, but maybe not. The next election is four years of Tory whoppers away.



And Tory splits: Johnson can dump all those who don't like his Covid policies and the inevitable compromises he is going to make with the EU now that he has a dependable coalition partner.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Oct 29, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Read the next bit I quoted about what he said of it later. They were, in his opinion, being disingenuous in pretending not to understand the irony that had been employed by the speaker in order to have a go at him. He himself is employing irony here in identifying their two problems.
> 
> I don't like that quote much. It's unpleasant, although I wasn't there to see how unpleasant the people who provoked it were. But it isn't what you're making it out to be.


Was he also being ironic with the qualifier: "having lived in this country, probably all their lives", but he was provoked into it?. You're being very lenient there.


----------



## Shechemite (Oct 29, 2020)

bimble said:


> Main thing I’m taking away from this whole shitshow of everyone talking about antisemitism on the left for the last several years is that it has not actually helped at all to either get people to spot it or to reduce its prevalence, i think it’s achieved the opposite. Good times.



it certainly hasn’t stopped Williamson from claiming Hodge ‘is on planet Zog’


----------



## Plumdaff (Oct 29, 2020)

agricola said:


> I don't think its going to split - as you say there are enough people, who are organized enough, to take it back and ironically the ECHR's call for an independent complaints system is going to mean a purge from the right isn't (or shouldn't) going to be possible.
> 
> Plus of course Starmer winning the leadership election hasn't made the right any better at politics, any more popular inside or outside the party or most importantly twenty points ahead of the worst government of our lifetime.   In fact the tactic is probably to get people to quit, which is the same tactic as they tried in 2016 and were shocked to find didn't happen.



Do you honestly think they will implement an independent complaints system before purging the left? They won't, and no one will hold them to account for not doing so, just as the worst offenders when it comes to the mismanagement and tolerance of antisemitism in the party have never been held to account because otherwise they have the 'right' politics. Because to the media, to the 'sensible' politicians, it doesn't matter beyond its use as a political tool.  There'll be people in head office now going through social media looking for people to suspend, and they'll ignore racism and antisemitism if it suits them, just like they always have. It's deeply cynical, awful stuff, but it's what will happen. They are absolutely shit at politics, but they are brilliant at maintaining control of the Labour Party (and, to be fair, the left was really shit and gaining control of it, even when it had the upper hand). It's one of the reasons it was in such an awful state to begin with. That doesn't matter.  What matters is we can get back to deluding ourselves it's 2012 again.


----------



## Sprocket. (Oct 29, 2020)

What a utter shit show. I expect no less.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 29, 2020)

Plumdaff said:


> Do you honestly think they will implement an independent complaints system before purging the left? They won't, and no one will hold them to account for not doing so, just as the worst offenders when it comes to the mismanagement and tolerance of antisemitism in the party have never been held to account because otherwise they have the 'right' politics. Because to the media, to the 'sensible' politicians, it doesn't matter beyond its use as a political tool.  There'll be people in head office now going through social media looking for people to suspend, and they'll ignore racism and antisemitism if it suits them, just like they always have. It's deeply cynical, awful stuff, but it's what will happen. They are absolutely shit at politics, but they are brilliant at maintaining control of the Labour Party (and, to be fair, the left was really shit and gaining control of it, even when it had the upper hand). It's one of the reasons it was in such an awful state to begin with. That doesn't matter.  What matters is we can get back to deluding ourselves it's 2012 again.


We'd been told the left had won all these positions in the party - controlling all the key positions NEC majority etc. That this was what as possible if only tried. That the left centre of dominance was future-proofed. Or did i imagine all that? (Not by you personally pd).


----------



## ska invita (Oct 29, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> Lucky there's nothing much going on in the country that might require a functional opposition holding the government to account instead of engaging in an endless, absurd factional struggle isn't it?


its not absurd ⚒ the struggle is real


Rimbaud said:


> After the last two elections where the right of the party went out their way to lose, appeals to unity are going to ring pretty fucking hollow.


THere hasnt been a single appeal to unity since he became leader


----------



## Leighsw2 (Oct 29, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> ‘Whiteness’ is the real racism.
> 
> BAMEs (a concept that excludes Jews) are victims of this real racism.
> 
> ...


'Black and minority ethnic' - clearly, jews are an ethnic minority in Britain. The fact that most, though not all, are white is immaterial. Irish (which is also my heritage) can also be included in this. Talking about "the BAMES" is clearly disparaging, though I imagine this is where centrists end up with their obnoxious hierarchy of oppression.

"...a mural of a bunch of Jews around a monopoly board" - you can't even get that right. Of the six individuals around the board, two were jewish, four were not -  Lord Rothschild, John D. Rockefeller, J. P. Morgan, Aleister Crowley, Andrew Carnegie and Paul Warburg. Of the two that were, the artist and his supporters argue that figures depict  "the elite banker cartel" with deliberately exaggerated features.

Not to my taste admittedly, I think you're on dicey ground the minute you started depicting any jewish person with exaggerated features, even a banker. However, I'm sure that future historians will marvel at how a totally obscure mural on a wall in east London, that vanished years before and no one had ever seen, ended up helping to cement the hard right into power in Britain for decades.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 29, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> ‘Whiteness’ is the real racism.
> 
> BAMEs (a concept that excludes Jews) are victims of this real racism.
> 
> ...



Do _you_ even know what the fuck you think you're on about?


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 29, 2020)

Leighsw2 said:


> 'Black and minority ethnic' - clearly, jews are an ethnic minority in Britain. The fact that most, though not all, are white is immaterial. Irish (which is also my heritage) can also be included in this. Talking about "the BAMES" is clearly disparaging, though I image this is where centrists end up with their obnoxious hierarchy of oppression.
> 
> "...a mural of a bunch of Jews around a monopoly board" - you can't even get that right. Of the six individuals around the board, two were jewish, four were not -  Lord Rothschild, John D. Rockefeller, J. P. Morgan, Aleister Crowley, Andrew Carnegie and Paul Warburg. Of the two that were, the artist and his supporters argue that figures depict  "the elite banker cartel" with deliberately exaggerated features.
> 
> Not to my taste admittedly, I think you're on dicey ground the minute you started depicting any jewish person with exaggerated features, even a banker. However, I'm sure that future historians will marvel at how a total obscure mural on a wall in east London, that vanished years before and no one had ever seen, ended up helping to cement the hard right into power in Britain for decades.


Jesus


----------



## Raheem (Oct 29, 2020)

agricola said:


> I don't think its going to split - as you say there are enough people, who are organized enough, to take it back and ironically the ECHR's call for an independent complaints system is going to mean a purge from the right isn't (or shouldn't) going to be possible.



A self-purge from the left, though (?)

(I also think it's entirely conceivable that Labour might not take a rigorous, line-by-line approach in responding to the report.)


----------



## Plumdaff (Oct 29, 2020)

butchersapron said:


> We'd been told the left had won all these positions in the party - controlling all the key positions NEC majority etc. That this was what as possible if only tried. That the left centre of dominance was future-proofed. Or did i imagine all that? (Not by you personally pd).



The party staff, the PLP, many CLPs and the councils weren't controlled by the left though, and weren't in the mood for unity. Turns out that was an issue.


----------



## Leighsw2 (Oct 29, 2020)

butchersapron said:


> Jesus


And your point?


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 29, 2020)

Plumdaff said:


> The party staff, the PLP, many CLPs and the councils weren't controlled by the left though, and weren't in the mood for unity. Turns out that was an issue.


They didn't have any control or say over what happened today. I was told winning the  centre - the admin/exec positions - the ones that actually matter, had been done.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 29, 2020)

Leighsw2 said:


> And your point?


That you - even today, and in defence of the suggestion that it was faked/ramped up etc -  are still offering ammunition to 'the enemy' by pretending that that mural is in any way challengingly ambiguous when it's appalling nature was belatedly recognised by Corbyn himself. You lot are are going to stink the place out for a long time yet aren't you?


----------



## Idris2002 (Oct 29, 2020)

I see on twatter (the social media site for twats) the claim that the party centre have "not actually decided the ground's for suspension" and that Corbo's statement was agreed with the leader's office.


----------



## Leighsw2 (Oct 29, 2020)

butchersapron said:


> That you - even today, and in defence of the suggestion that it was faked/ramped up etc -  are still offering ammunition to 'the enemy' by pretending that that mural as in any way challengingly ambiguous when it's appalling nature was belatedly recognised by Corbyn himself. You lot are are going to stink the place out for a long time yet aren't you?


Interesting - very centrist snowflake aren't we? I was merely responding factually to correct the two misleading statements of your centrist friend. Firstly that BAME doesn't include jews because they are white and secondly that the mural depicted a "bunch of jews". Neither is correct, as I pointed out. But I do enjoy your hysterical centrist response - very typical of the mindset that has handed power in this country to the Tories for many years to come, alas.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 29, 2020)

Leighsw2 said:


> Interesting - very centrist snowflake aren't we? I was merely responding factually to correct the two misleading statements of your centrist friend. Firstly that BAME doesn't include jews because they are white and secondly that the mural depicted a "bunch of jews". Neither is correct, as I pointed out. But I do enjoy your hysterical centrist response - very typical of the mindset that has handed power in this country to the Tories for many years to come, alas.


Oh yes. _Perfect_.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 29, 2020)

lol

Yeah butchers, you _centrist snowflake_.


----------



## Leighsw2 (Oct 29, 2020)

And, the demonstration, yet again, that centrists are not 'liberals' as all, but highly intolerant, authoritarian and factional.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 29, 2020)

Jesus


----------



## tommers (Oct 29, 2020)

Hahaha, that's cheered me up anyway.


----------



## Leighsw2 (Oct 29, 2020)

Sadly, your attachment does not display.....


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 29, 2020)

Leighsw2 said:


> Sadly, your attachment does not display.....


It's ok, i guess you'd think it might not mean anything anyway.


----------



## Mr Moose (Oct 29, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> lol
> 
> Yeah butchers, you _centrist snowflake_.



That’s his new signature right there.


----------



## Shechemite (Oct 29, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> Do _you_ even know what the fuck you think you're on about?



why do you think Oxford BLM (made famous by Sasha Johnson) found themselves ‘accidentally‘ promoting the very Mural that got poor jezza into so much grief?

You don’t think that the struggle against ‘whiteness’ contains plenty of resentful and bonkers antisemites? That the attempt to cast racism as ‘whiteness’ provides a nice excuse to justify antisemitic racism on the basis that Jews are white? That this isn’t a one of the drivers behind the defence/promotion of antisemtism on the left?

defend antisemites against the ‘real racists’


----------



## 19force8 (Oct 29, 2020)

.


butchersapron said:


> We'd been told the left had won all these positions in the party - controlling all the key positions NEC majority etc. That this was what as possible if only tried. That the left centre of dominance was future-proofed. Or did i imagine all that? (Not by you personally pd).


Really?

What are they on where you are?

In the West Midlands it was always clear it would have to be a generational project to clear out the phenomenally corrupt cabal of regional officials, labour clubs and "societies". I mean I'm as cynical as the next socialist, but I was truly shocked by how bad it was and still is. And I was a member of the GMB (still am, retired)


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 29, 2020)

19force8 said:


> .
> 
> Really?
> 
> ...


On here - NEC elections etc over and over. In line with a a top-down _then fill in the gaps_ plan. I'm not joking.


----------



## 19force8 (Oct 29, 2020)

Yeah, winning the NEC was an important step, but the right had such deep roots. Also, we were far too soft. Well I'm out of it now


----------



## toblerone3 (Oct 29, 2020)

Is there still any point in reading the EHRC report or has the debate moved on to Corbyn's comment and subsequent suspension?  Wondering how the report covered the alleged delays in dealing with complaints about anti-semitic abuse by those on the right in the party seeking to damage Corbyn.


----------



## belboid (Oct 29, 2020)

toblerone3 said:


> Is there still any point in reading the EHRC report or has the debate moved on to Corbyn's comment and subsequent suspension?  Wondering how the report covered the alleged delays in dealing with complaints about anti-semitic abuse by those on the right in the party seeking to damage Corbyn.


How do you think it dealt with them? By blaming the leadership.


----------



## toblerone3 (Oct 29, 2020)

belboid said:


> How do you think it dealt with them? By blaming the leadership.



On what page does it discuss those allegations? On what page does it decide that those allegations were groundless that the leadership of the party was to blame for everything?  Perhaps I should actually read it but hoping for a steer towards the relevant section.


----------



## belboid (Oct 29, 2020)

toblerone3 said:


> On what page does it discuss those allegations? On what page does it decide that those allegations were groundless that the leadership of the party was to blame for everything?  Perhaps I should actually read it but hoping for a steer towards the relevant section.


chapter 6, mostly, tho there is stuff scattered throughout. It makes zero comment about any potentially egregious complaints.


----------



## Shechemite (Oct 29, 2020)

Steve Bell’s take on events


----------



## gosub (Oct 29, 2020)

teqniq said:


> Yes, funny that.
> 
> View attachment 236472



tbf He did go all in, and expect judgement from a deity


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 29, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


>


Who demanded who and how why not jewish?


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 29, 2020)

OK that needs explaining - it's attempt at biblical allusion (you jews love the bible right). It's reffing when  john was killed. Nutters think that JC could rise again  as the real jesus- as per the shit cartoon.

You've fucked it for everyone.


----------



## AnnO'Neemus (Oct 30, 2020)

Mr Moose said:


> I’d bet you hard cash most left wing people would see that mural as antisemitic and repulsive. Sadly JC didn’t, but we was lumbered with him because of Labour’s couple of decades of warmongering ineptitude.


I'm a lefty and in all honesty, I didn't spot it straight away, it was only when it was pointed out that it became obvious.

I wonder how many other people didn't spot it first time round? I don't think it was a given, I don't think I must've been the sole exception.

I was scrolling on my phone, small screen, and read that Corbyn had supported some street art, and my knee jerk reaction was good on him, that's clearly street art, it's not shitty graffiti or the mindless territorial pissing contest that is tagging, street art is a valid artform. 

But of course the furore made me take a second look, and then it became clear. 

Corbyn's had a solid reputation for years (along with John McConnell) as someone who supports grassroots campaigns, so I'd imagine his knee jerk reaction to a campaign to sign a petition or speak out or whatever to save some street art was to do so, without necessarily examining closely the subject matter. 

It's easily done. I did it myself, ie I didn't look too closely at the image in the first instance. And yet Corbyn's now painted as an antisemite, even though he subsequently apologised and admitted that he hadn't looked closely.

Has no one else clicked like or commented on something on social media while on their phone, maybe on public transport or while watching telly, while only half paying attention, and maybe getting the wrong end of the stick?


----------



## pseudonarcissus (Oct 30, 2020)

AnnO'Neemus said:


> I'm a lefty and in all honesty, I didn't spot it straight away, it was only when it was pointed out that it became obvious.
> 
> I wonder how many other people didn't spot it first time round? I don't think it was a given, I don't think I must've been the sole exception.
> 
> ...


The mural, in itself, was trivial. It was cumulative. There was the laying of flowers close to terrorist graves, the platform sharing. There was tea with IRÁ folk in the House of Commons, but never photos of him having tea with a rabbi.


----------



## 19force8 (Oct 30, 2020)

butchersapron said:


> OK that needs explaining - it's attempt at biblical allusion (you jews love the bible right). It's reffing when  john was killed. Nutters think that JC could rise again  as the real jesus- as per the shit cartoon.
> 
> You've fucked it for everyone.


Except John the Baptist didn't "rise again as the real Jesus"

Also, it's christians wot luv the bible, not jews

But you knew that


----------



## Quote (Oct 30, 2020)




----------



## Humberto (Oct 30, 2020)

The fact of the matter is that Corbyn actually went up against the establishment. So he has many enemies. He is weak compared to the establishment. He offered a radically beneficial manifesto which was rejected by a Johnson/Cummings soundbite. Sign your own death warrant to some degree?

The Tories say the left is controlling, i.e. the bonkers conspiracy theory questioned here; Jewish 'influence', 'cutural Marxism'. Bullshit. The Left has heritage. It isn't anti-human and it certainly isn't anti-semtic. This generation of parliamentarians is about the weakest and 'save your own ass' mentality I can remember. Labour is a digrace. The Tories are murdering, dreary misanthropes. Starmer won't last. Neither will Johnson. They are both time wasters. I never voted for either of them and I hope they retire to the revolving door of corporate hand-jobs soon. We've been here before, Cameron, Osborne, Clegg. About the only one I don't mind is 'Red Ed'.

The 'Left' isn't a party. It certainly isn't the Labour Party. One thing I know is that it isn't going away. Corbyn fell into a trap. He isn't the perfect politician. That's a contradiction in terms anyway. What he is is real. Priti Patel and Boris Johnson aren't. I actually think Corbyn isn't done yet. In other words I expect he still has enough good will amongst friends to overturn this.


----------



## Wilf (Oct 30, 2020)

19force8 said:


> Except John the Baptist didn't "rise again as the real Jesus"
> 
> Also, it's christians wot luv the bible, not jews
> 
> But you knew that


Preprare ye the way of the Lord Mann?


----------



## 19force8 (Oct 30, 2020)

Mr Moose said:


> I’d bet you hard cash most left wing people would see that mural as antisemitic and repulsive. Sadly JC didn’t, but we was lumbered with him because of Labour’s couple of decades of warmongering ineptitude.


First, you're projecting what you think onto what "most left wing people would see" - the ad populum fallacy.

Second, you're reading support for freedom of expression as support for what was expressed.

Third, it's clear from Corbyn's comment at the time and his subsequent apology, that he didn't pay much attention to the mural. He certainly didn't advocate for its preservation. His response to Mear One looks like a gentle brush off from a busy man, not the enthusiastic backing of a fellow swivel eyed loon.


----------



## Shechemite (Oct 30, 2020)

19force8 said:


> Also, it's christians wot luv the bible, not jews



Jews are more talmudically inclined. Babylonians


----------



## Wilf (Oct 30, 2020)

My take - and aside - is that Corbyn and starmer were the twin agents of Labour's downfall on Brexit. They  might have had diametrically opposed views but the playing out of their battle, the months of not having a policy, the mealy mouthed formulations, meant they couldn't even kill off Theresa May. Starmer's line was awful, but Corbyn let it all happen. Neither of them got it, got the extent to which Brexit was symptomatic of something deeper.  Maybe Corbyn did get it, but he couldn't manage to tell the intervening strata of remainers and labour officials to shut the fuck up. He couldn't engage with people and, what, thought it would somehow come out right? It didn't. The pair of them, in their different ways, back with John the Baptist, prepared the way for Johnson.


----------



## David Clapson (Oct 30, 2020)

I give up. I was hoping for a longish period of pragmatism and a path back to electability, but they're addicted to civil war. Not going to renew my membership. Screw the lot of them.


----------



## 19force8 (Oct 30, 2020)

pseudonarcissus said:


> The mural, in itself, was trivial. It was cumulative. There was the laying of flowers close to terrorist graves, the platform sharing. There was tea with IRÁ folk in the House of Commons, but never photos of him having tea with a rabbi.


Were there any photos of him having tea with the IRA?

There are plenty of photos of him meeting with Jewish people, difficult to tell if they're rabbis though, so you could be right on that point. Not really.


----------



## Raheem (Oct 30, 2020)

19force8 said:


> Third, it's clear from Corbyn's comment at the time and his subsequent apology, that he didn't pay much attention to the mural. He certainly didn't advocate for its preservation. His response to Mear One looks like a gentle brush off from a busy man, not the enthusiastic backing of a fellow swivel eyed loon.


You don't even need to consider what Corbyn said about it. Either he saw what he knew to be an anti-Semitic mural, liked what he saw, and decided it was a good idea, as an MP, to spring to its defence. Or he failed to see what was problematic about it. Anyone who claims to have thought about the episode and decided the first option is plausible is just bullshitting.

Not that I think Corbyn never put a foot wrong, and he ought to have known the mural was dodgy, so he doesn't necessarily come out well in any case.


----------



## 19force8 (Oct 30, 2020)

Raheem said:


> Not that I think Corbyn never put a foot wrong, and he ought to have known the mural was dodgy, so he doesn't necessarily come out well in any case.


Hence the apology. Which is more than you'd ever get from most politicians.


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Oct 30, 2020)

gsv said:


> No wonder – Jewish Voice for Labour was set up all the way back in 2017 to support the Corbyn leadership against allegations of anti-semitism. Compare with the submission by Jewish Labour Movement (set up in 1903) to the EHRC, that was damning to the core.
> 
> 
> What his Jewish critics don't like is that he's an old-fashioned leftist anti-semite.


The JLM has to my knowledge proven links to the Israeli Embassy: in any event how are two examples, one an obscure councillor “damning”. They clearly aren’t.

certainly JVL was set up in response to attacks but it includes (clue in the name here) Jewish people in which case my point stands: if he is anti-Semitic then how come these Jewish people work with him?

Even the EHRC report nowhere stated JC is an anti-Semite, he patently isn’t.


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Oct 30, 2020)

Mr Moose said:


> I’d bet you hard cash most left wing people would see that mural as antisemitic and repulsive. Sadly JC didn’t, but we was lumbered with him because of Labour’s couple of decades of warmongering ineptitude.





MadeInBedlam said:


> 1) put the boot into a lot of racists
> 2) resulted in a more developed analysis of racism (and how antisemitism fits into this)
> 3) antisemtism in Britain is more stigmatised than it was previously



MIB, sadly you are wrong here
1) Genuine anti-semites will find the demonisation of Corbyn hilarious.
2) No way has Starmer developed a serious analysis of racism: in fact the tragedy is that by mixing up genuine concerns about anti-semitism with Labour Right factionalising the issue has become clouded


----------



## Raheem (Oct 30, 2020)

19force8 said:


> Hence the apology. Which is more than you'd ever get from most politicians.


Fair point, although, as an aside, I think you'd actually get the same from most politicians in a similar scenario.


----------



## Petcha (Oct 30, 2020)

So. Just to clarify. Anyone who disputes the expansion of the Israeli settlements into Palestinian lands, against international law, is now a racist?

Coz if so, well. That's me fucked.

Corbyn's a total idiot, who gifted Boris a massive majority but not for one minute an anti-Semite or a racist.


----------



## krtek a houby (Oct 30, 2020)

pseudonarcissus said:


> The mural, in itself, was trivial. It was cumulative. There was the laying of flowers close to terrorist graves, the platform sharing. There was tea with IRÁ folk in the House of Commons, but never photos of him having tea with a rabbi.



Tea with the IRA?


----------



## Raheem (Oct 30, 2020)

krtek a houby said:


> Tea with the IRA?


----------



## Shechemite (Oct 30, 2020)

Larry O'Hara said:


> MIB, sadly you are wrong here
> 1) Genuine anti-semites will find the demonisation of Corbyn hilarious.
> 2) No way has Starmer developed a serious analysis of racism: in fact the tragedy is that by mixing up genuine concerns about anti-semitism with Labour Right factionalising the issue has become clouded



1) if by ‘genuine’ antisemites you mean antisemites who aren’t traumatised when they’re called antisemites? Very few in number, in a society where hating Jews isn’t a popular prejudice The risk such sociopaths and oddballs pose is one of terrorism. They can find it as hilarious as they like (haven’t checked bitchute for a while so yeah maybe), but they have fuck all reach (much harder when the only place you can ‘honestly’ discuss the JQ is on fucking DLive or whatever). 

2) I wasn’t referring to starmer.


----------



## Wilf (Oct 30, 2020)

Raheem said:


>



_*'Funny that, my brother's a nonce too!'*_


----------



## Fez909 (Oct 30, 2020)




----------



## Shechemite (Oct 30, 2020)

He can fuck off and all


----------



## krtek a houby (Oct 30, 2020)

Raheem said:


>



Sinn Fein and some toff, no JC (in the shot)


----------



## bimble (Oct 30, 2020)

Petcha said:


> So. Just to clarify. Anyone who disputes the expansion of the Israeli settlements into Palestinian lands, against international law, is now a racist?


No.


----------



## IC3D (Oct 30, 2020)

bimble said:


> No.


Burrung the lines has been the basis of the smear campaign though.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 30, 2020)

Raheem said:


>


I wonder if ga was inviting pc to go boating in sligo


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 30, 2020)

David Clapson said:


> I give up. I was hoping for a longish period of pragmatism and a path back to electability, but they're addicted to civil war. Not going to renew my membership. Screw the lot of them.


that'll learn them


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 30, 2020)

Wilf said:


> _*'Funny that, my brother's a nonce too!'*_


----------



## two sheds (Oct 30, 2020)

Larry O'Hara said:


> MIB, sadly you are wrong here
> 1) Genuine anti-semites will find the demonisation of Corbyn hilarious.



The other boards I go on has a thread with the Trump-supporting (far) right in utter glee about this. Someone on the left being called racist rather than them. They love it.


----------



## two sheds (Oct 30, 2020)

bimble said:


> No.



I think some in the Israeli government will disagree with you.


----------



## Sue (Oct 30, 2020)

Starmer on R4 just now. Fuck 'forensic', that was _floundering_.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 30, 2020)

Sue said:


> Starmer on R4 just now. Fuck 'forensic', that was _floundering_.


Yeh what was all that I thought it was important we had voices in the shadow cabinet about - voices for what? Which they should have asked but didn't. And if I was JC I'd be well pleased with that because KS seemed to offer conclusions indicating there was no problem with corbyn's statement as a whole just a couple of bits removed from their context


----------



## brogdale (Oct 30, 2020)

My local Tories in Croydon are, inevitably, re-raking over Steve Reed's use of the antisemitic trope of _puppet-master _in a tweet about Desmond's donation to the party following Jenryk's bent planning decision.

I checked back and, despite the suggestion otherwise by the local tories, Reed was quick to apologise unreservedly for the tweet...but I was drawn to the comment from Starmer:


----------



## Mr Moose (Oct 30, 2020)

Humberto said:


> The fact of the matter is that Corbyn actually went up against the establishment. So he has many enemies. He is weak compared to the establishment. He offered a radically beneficial manifesto which was rejected by a Johnson/Cummings soundbite. Sign your own death warrant to some degree?
> 
> The Tories say the left is controlling, i.e. the bonkers conspiracy theory questioned here; Jewish 'influence', 'cutural Marxism'. Bullshit. The Left has heritage. It isn't anti-human and it certainly isn't anti-semtic. This generation of parliamentarians is about the weakest and 'save your own ass' mentality I can remember. Labour is a digrace. The Tories are murdering, dreary misanthropes. Starmer won't last. Neither will Johnson. They are both time wasters. I never voted for either of them and I hope they retire to the revolving door of corporate hand-jobs soon. We've been here before, Cameron, Osborne, Clegg. About the only one I don't mind is 'Red Ed'.
> 
> The 'Left' isn't a party. It certainly isn't the Labour Party. One thing I know is that it isn't going away. Corbyn fell into a trap. He isn't the perfect politician. That's a contradiction in terms anyway. What he is is real. Priti Patel and Boris Johnson aren't. I actually think Corbyn isn't done yet. In other words I expect he still has enough good will amongst friends to overturn this.



You are utterly bonkers if you think Corbyn isn’t done yet. If you mean that he may cause trouble, possibly he isn’t, but do you really think he would win a leadership election now? With all those who voted for Cyclist Harmer? And if you think he could then win a general election, we’ll I’d like some of what you are smoking.

People are going to be crosser and crosser with him over the next while. Whatever the context and media he has brought Labour to failure and disgrace. He could have mitigated these disasters by reaching out to people receiving antisemitism (whether he liked them or not or if they were political enemies) but he didn’t. He could have jumped ship from midway through the last term when it was evident he could not win, but he didn’t.

If he wants any redemption, accept the report gracefully, apologise, bow out, go on I’m a celebrity or something. But as a political force he is done for. He wouldn’t even attract that many if he set up a new party. If that sounds harsh, it’s actually not intended, but he is not the future of the left, surely?


----------



## Humberto (Oct 30, 2020)

Mr Moose said:


> You are utterly bonkers if you think Corbyn isn’t done yet. If you mean that he may cause trouble, possibly he isn’t, but do you really think he would win a leadership election now? With all those who voted for Cyclist Harmer? And if you think he could then win a general election, we’ll I’d like some of what you are smoking.
> 
> People are going to be crosser and crosser with him over the next while. Whatever the context and media he has brought Labour to failure and disgrace. He could have mitigated these disasters by reaching out to people receiving antisemitism (whether he liked them or not or if they were political enemies) but he didn’t. He could have jumped ship from midway through the last term when it was evident he could not win, but he didn’t.
> 
> If he wants any redemption, accept the report gracefully, apologise, bow out, go on I’m a celebrity or something. But as a political force he is done for. He wouldn’t even attract that many if he set up a new party. If that sounds harsh, it’s actually not intended, but he is not the future of the left, surely?



Not what I said at all is it? I'm clearly talking about his suspension, and possible ejection.


----------



## Mr Moose (Oct 30, 2020)

Humberto said:


> Not what I said at all is it? I'm clearly talking about his suspension, and possible ejection.



Ok, fair enough and yes he could, but he will need in some way to back down.


----------



## Hyperdark (Oct 30, 2020)

Attempting a debate relating to religon with the adherent to any religon is a complete waste of time, once indoctrinated myths become facts and facts become plastic.


----------



## bimble (Oct 30, 2020)

Hyperdark said:


> Attempting a debate relating to religon with the adherent to any religon is a complete waste of time, once indoctrinated myths become facts and facts become plastic.


nobody is debating the tenets of judaism . idiot.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 30, 2020)

Hyperdark said:


> Attempting a debate relating to religon with the adherent to any religon is a complete waste of time, once indoctrinated myths become facts and facts become plastic.


This is another of those better to keep quiet and be thought a fool moments. But you keep insisting to demonstrating your folly.


----------



## kropotkin (Oct 30, 2020)

Mr Moose said:


> .
> 
> He could have mitigated these disasters by reaching out to people receiving antisemitism (whether he liked them or not or if they were political enemies) but he didn’t.



Anyone who believes that anything other than his resignation would have mollified these critics are themselves smoking something potent. This was an amplified scandal to undermine him - he and "the left" of the party were the real target of it rather than antisemitism. There was no ending that would have satisfied those weaponising antisemitism other than his departure.


----------



## andysays (Oct 30, 2020)

kropotkin said:


> Anyone who believes that anything other than his resignation would have mollified these critics are themselves smoking something potent. This was an amplified scandal to undermine him - he and "the left" of the party were the real target of it rather than antisemitism. There was no ending that would have satisfied those weaponising antisemitism other than his departure.


I agree 100%, but by some (many, tbh) of his actions, he's actually made it easier for them to portray him as antisemitism or at least not fully determined to root it out within the LP.


----------



## belboid (Oct 30, 2020)

andysays said:


> I agree 100%, but by some (many, tbh) of his actions, he's actually made it easier for them to portray him as antisemitism or at least not fully determined to root it out within the LP.


Arguably the most damning section of the report is where it finds him (as head of the LP) responsible for harassment.  But the only examples it gives are of Livingstone and Bromley - as they made comments in their capacity as LP office holders. But the idea that they wouldn't have come out with the stuff they did (and it was solely Livingstone's comments on Naz Shah that were the problem, not his moronic statement that 'Hitler was a zionist') is Corbyn hadn't been leader is laughable.


----------



## Mr Moose (Oct 30, 2020)

kropotkin said:


> Anyone who believes that anything other than his resignation would have mollified these critics are themselves smoking something potent. This was an amplified scandal to undermine him - he and "the left" of the party were the real target of it rather than antisemitism. There was no ending that would have satisfied those weaponising antisemitism other than his departure.



That view seems to have saved him the fuss of trying too hard. But if you are in an organisation and someone you despise is subjected to racism what would you do? I think you’d try everything to make it clear you supported them in that respect, in fact you in his position you might try extra hard as it’s a public facing game. And moreover, you would be appalled by it.


----------



## Wilf (Oct 30, 2020)

Labour 5% ahead of the Tories in this poll. Whether that survives the battles over Corbyn's suspension is anyone's guess (fieldwork done before the report was published of course). Much as I'm appalled at the suspension, I don't discount starmer getting some benefit from this in the polls, particularly as his lone pitch was 'I'm not Jeremy Corbyn'. Against that, all the clichés about divided parties, 'civil war' headlines etc. I'm not convinced AS in the Labour Party has ever been a big public issue, it's always been the noise around it.





__





						Labour surges to five-point poll lead in boost to Keir Starmer as Boris Johnson stumbles over Covid and school meals
					





					www.msn.com


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Oct 30, 2020)

Fez909 said:


> View attachment 236530


Says a man (Adonis) who’s never stood in an election, except perhaps for a Greek God look-alike....actually on second thoughts, probably not (save for Pan‘s rear end)


----------



## teqniq (Oct 30, 2020)

Worth a read imo:









						Antisemitism report: By suspending Corbyn, Starmer is tearing Labour apart
					

The EHRC report: The evidence points at culprits other than Corbyn




					www.middleeasteye.net


----------



## oryx (Oct 30, 2020)

teqniq said:


> Worth a read imo:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks. It is indeed well worth a read.


----------



## Idris2002 (Oct 30, 2020)

teqniq said:


> Worth a read imo:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I was meaning to ask - are these middle East eye people OK, or is the shadow of the loon upon them?


----------



## teqniq (Oct 30, 2020)

Idris2002 said:


> I was meaning to ask - are these middle East eye people OK, or is the shadow of the loon upon them?


I take it you are not convinced


----------



## two sheds (Oct 30, 2020)

Idris2002 said:


> I was meaning to ask - are these middle East eye people OK, or is the shadow of the loon upon them?



Half way through so far, haven't seen any mistakes/distortions - you?


----------



## Idris2002 (Oct 30, 2020)

teqniq said:


> I take it you are not convinced


Not so! Just asking on general principles.


----------



## two sheds (Oct 30, 2020)

Right, finished - looks forensic to me


----------



## Idris2002 (Oct 30, 2020)

two sheds said:


> Half way through so far, haven't seen any mistakes/distortions - you?


Yeah it seems ok - my only problem isI'd hate to forward the link on, only to be told there was something dodgy elsewhere on their site.


----------



## two sheds (Oct 30, 2020)

fair play


----------



## Shechemite (Oct 30, 2020)

two sheds said:


> The other boards I go on has a thread with the Trump-supporting (far) right in utter glee about this. Someone on the left being called racist rather than them. They love it.



yeah, it’s just trump fans who find it amusing

In any case, Trump fans and far-right antisemites are generally not the same thing. The right wing antisemites even set up their own party (national justice party) in the US, citing Trumps alleged support for/ownership by the Jews


----------



## Shechemite (Oct 30, 2020)

Idris2002 said:


> I was meaning to ask - are these middle East eye people OK, or is the shadow of the loon upon them?



But don’t link to the Sun 









						Is Israel's hand behind the attacks on Jeremy Corbyn?
					

Israeli group submits freedom of information request as evidence grows of meddling by Netanyahu government in UK politics




					www.middleeasteye.net


----------



## two sheds (Oct 31, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> yeah, it’s just trump fans who find it amusing
> 
> In any case, Trump fans and far-right antisemites are generally not the same thing. The right wing antisemites even set up their own party (national justice party) in the US



I don't think I said it was.

Bit of an overlap though.


----------



## Shechemite (Oct 31, 2020)

two sheds said:


> I don't think I said it was.
> 
> Bit of an overlap though.



how much of overlap between finding corbyns humilation (over his racism) amusing and being
1) a trump supporter 
2) a racist trump supporter 
3) a far right antisemite


----------



## Shechemite (Oct 31, 2020)

It is good to see the professional anti-racists take a kicking tbh. 

What they’re doing to the NHS atm is insane. Trust CEOs taking the knee and endorsing BLM, consultants talking about ‘white fragility’ and so on.

it will end badly.


----------



## two sheds (Oct 31, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> how much of overlap between finding corbyns humilation (over his racism) amusing and being
> 1) a trump supporter
> 2) a racist trump supporter
> 3) a far right antisemite



My original statement was "The other boards I go on has a thread with the Trump-supporting (far) right in utter glee about this. Someone on the left being called racist rather than them. They love it."

You're wanting me to say there's an overlap between you (for example) finding corbyn's humiliation amusing and being a trump supporter etc? Nope I'm not going to do that. I'm glad you find corbyn's humiliation amusing though, we all need some cheer in these troubled times.  

I think you're wrong about him being a racist, my understanding is that he's fought against racism his whole political life.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 31, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> What they’re doing to the NHS atm is insane. Trust CEOs taking the knee and endorsing BLM, consultants talking about ‘white fragility’ and so on.


That needs explaining really. Otherwise it just hangs there, like a stubborn fart.


----------



## oryx (Oct 31, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> What they’re doing to the NHS atm is insane. Trust CEOs taking the knee and endorsing BLM, consultants talking about ‘white fragility’ and so on.



What the actual fuck?


----------



## Shechemite (Oct 31, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> That needs explaining really.



to you it does. The constant insult to white patients of the NHS, and the constant ‘NHS Heroes, this is why we beat the Nazis, had windrush etc’ will not end well 

setting up BAME staff as ‘heroes’, BAME patients as ‘victims’ and white people as the enemy will not end well.


----------



## Shechemite (Oct 31, 2020)

oryx said:


> What the actual fuck?



exactly


----------



## Shechemite (Oct 31, 2020)

two sheds said:


> My original statement was "The other boards I go on has a thread with the Trump-supporting (far) right in utter glee about this. Someone on the left being called racist rather than them. They love it."
> 
> You're wanting me to say there's an overlap between you (for example) finding corbyn's humiliation amusing and being a trump supporter etc? Nope I'm not going to do that. I'm glad you find corbyn's humiliation amusing though, we all need some cheer in these trouble times.
> 
> I think you're wrong about him being a racist, my understanding is that he's fought against racism his whole political life.



On the right side of history aren’t you


----------



## two sheds (Oct 31, 2020)

ta


----------



## oryx (Oct 31, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> to you it does. The constant insult to white patients of the NHS, and the constant ‘NHS Heroes, this is why we beat the Nazis, had windrush etc’ will not end well
> 
> setting up BAME staff as ‘heroes’, BAME patients as ‘victims’ and white people as the enemy will not end well.


OK, let's unpick this.

Just for starters, how exactly are white patients of the NHS being insulted?


----------



## teqniq (Oct 31, 2020)

Stop making sense.


----------



## Shechemite (Oct 31, 2020)

Everything the left has done as long as I’ve been politically active (awful term, but they you go) 22 years ago has done nothing but fuel the very mess we’re in. 

Trust CEOs taking knee. You fucking lunatics.


----------



## two sheds (Oct 31, 2020)

I've not noticed anyone here trusting CEOs taking the knee.


----------



## Shechemite (Oct 31, 2020)

Was on a Unite zoom conference on ‘co-production in mental health’ the other day. Was glorious. Every single panellist was a university graduate. They followed the script (nothing about autism and learning disability, nothing about actual inpatients in long term hospitalisation, plenty on BAMELGBTetc)

the remember those conversations we once had about the white working class?


----------



## Shechemite (Oct 31, 2020)

two sheds said:


> I've not noticed anyone here trusting CEOs taking the knee.



come on to a thread about antisemitism, do a spot of trolling, down with racists (the genuine racists that is)


----------



## Shechemite (Oct 31, 2020)

You can be as smug as you like but your grand dreams aren’t coming to fruition are they?


----------



## Shechemite (Oct 31, 2020)

oryx said:


> OK, let's unpick this.
> 
> Just for starters, how exactly are white patients of the NHS being insulted?






MadeInBedlam said:


> ‘NHS Heroes, this is why we beat the Nazis, had windrush etc’
> 
> setting up BAME staff as ‘heroes’, BAME patients as ‘victims’ and white people as the enemy.


----------



## Shechemite (Oct 31, 2020)

‘White fragility’ 
‘white lives have always mattered’ (to quote a social worker I had to pleasure listening to at a BASW event the other day)
‘white lives don’t matter’ (to quote that posh Cambridge woman) 

Genius


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 31, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> ‘White fragility’
> ‘white lives have always mattered’ (to quote a social worker I had to pleasure listening to at a BASW event the other day)
> ‘white lives don’t matter’ (to quote that posh Cambridge woman)
> 
> Genius


You haven't answered the question 'how exactly are white patients of the NHS being insulted?' That's just bollocks, isn't it?


----------



## Dogsauce (Oct 31, 2020)

These days, if you say you're English, they’ll arrest you and throw you in jail.


----------



## oryx (Oct 31, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> ‘White fragility’
> ‘white lives have always mattered’ (to quote a social worker I had to pleasure listening to at a BASW event the other day)
> ‘white lives don’t matter’ (to quote that posh Cambridge woman)
> 
> Genius


Do you have a problem with the BLM movement?


----------



## SlideshowBob (Oct 31, 2020)

Wilf said:


> Labour 5% ahead of the Tories in this poll. Whether that survives the battles over Corbyn's suspension is anyone's guess (fieldwork done before the report was published of course). Much as I'm appalled at the suspension, I don't discount starmer getting some benefit from this in the polls, particularly as his lone pitch was 'I'm not Jeremy Corbyn'. Against that, all the clichés about divided parties, 'civil war' headlines etc. I'm not convinced AS in the Labour Party has ever been a big public issue, it's always been the noise around it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I get the impression Starmer is banking on the general public who don't really like Corbyn approving of this, and the left who disapproved of it still ultimately voting for Labour when the next election comes around. Which could be a solid bet for him.

A lot of the rhetoric even from people like McDonnell seems to hint against any immediate full split, and they appear to be playing this carefully. Threats of any new party probably won't frighten Starmer all that much because the failure of Change UK last year showed quite clearly that breakaways tend to be doomed for the most part. Any breakaway party led by one of the central figures in Corbyn's leadership will be seen as illogical because Labour under Corbyn lost convincingly last year. And younger socialist MP's probably won't want to leave Labour because they'll be throwing away any future political capital they could maybe have. If Starmer's goal is, indeed, to rid the party of anyone associated with Corbyn and his wing of politics, then mass resignations would probably be walking right into his trap.


----------



## Raheem (Oct 31, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> The constant insult to white patients of the NHS


It's probably not to do with you being white. A lot of nurses have been under strain recently. Try not being a dickhead.


----------



## two sheds (Oct 31, 2020)

SlideshowBob said:


> I get the impression Starmer is banking on the general public who don't really like Corbyn approving of this, and the left who disapproved of it still ultimately voting for Labour when the next election comes around. Which could be a solid bet for him.
> 
> A lot of the rhetoric even from people like McDonnell seems to hint against any immediate full split, and they appear to be playing this carefully. Threats of any new party probably won't frighten Starmer all that much because the failure of Change UK last year showed quite clearly that breakaways tend to be doomed for the most part. Any breakaway party led by one of the central figures in Corbyn's leadership will be seen as illogical because Labour under Corbyn lost convincingly last year. And younger socialist MP's probably won't want to leave Labour because they'll be throwing away any future political capital they could maybe have. If Starmer's goal is, indeed, to rid the party of anyone associated with Corbyn and his wing of politics, then mass resignations would probably be walking right into his trap.



Any breakaway party will also have consistent accusations of antisemitism at it by media and labour right wing whether true or not. Permanent feature for the left I'd say now, it's been so successful.


----------



## Shechemite (Oct 31, 2020)

Raheem said:


> It's probably not to do with you being white. A lot of nurses have been under strain recently. Try not being a dickhead.



This attitude is working out so well for the left isn’t it


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 31, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> ‘white lives don’t matter’ (to quote that posh Cambridge woman)
> 
> Genius




'White lives don't matter'...as White lives...'  meaning it's not just being 'White' that makes a life matter...as well you know.


----------



## gsv (Oct 31, 2020)

Larry O'Hara said:


> The JLM has to my knowledge proven links to the Israeli Embassy


Dismissing allegations of anti-semitism with "proven links to the Israeli Embassy". There's a word for that.



Larry O'Hara said:


> he patently isn’t.


In the opinion of many Jews (myself included) he patently is. Not that that's the core issue here.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 31, 2020)

two sheds said:


> Any breakaway party will also have consistent accusations of antisemitism at it by media and labour right wing whether true or not. Permanent feature for the left I'd say now, it's been so successful.



The report protects non-anti-Semitic criticism of Israel. But while I reckon most of us on here would agree where the line is crossed when putting forward anti-Zionist ideas, the Israeli government of course disagrees. It wants 'anti-Zionist' and 'anti-Semitic' to be considered synonyms. It's pretty explicit about that.

As from around 20:50 in this, the Israeli ambassador to the UN gives the Israeli government's  self-serving understanding of anti-Semitism. 

'using different language when they speak about Israel' 
'You can criticise Israel, absolutely, but don't criticise only Israel'
'this obsession, it comes from somewhere'

HARDtalk - Israel’s ambassador to the UN - Danny Danon - BBC Sounds

That's essentially the battleground now. How come you're singling out Israel? That's anti-Semitic.


----------



## oryx (Oct 31, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> This attitude is working out so well for the left isn’t it


I still don't understand what you mean.

Sounds like you have some really dodgy views.


----------



## oryx (Oct 31, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> to you it does. The constant insult to white patients of the NHS, and the constant ‘NHS Heroes, this is why we beat the Nazis, had windrush etc’ will not end well
> 
> setting up BAME staff as ‘heroes’, BAME patients as ‘victims’ and white people as the enemy will not end well.


^ really dodgy views.


----------



## two sheds (Oct 31, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> The report protects non-anti-Semitic criticism of Israel. But while I reckon most of us on here would agree where the line is crossed when putting forward anti-Zionist ideas, the Israeli government of course disagrees. It wants 'anti-Zionist' and 'anti-Semitic' to be considered synonyms. It's pretty explicit about that.
> 
> As from around 20:50 in this, the Israeli ambassador to the UN gives the Israeli government's  self-serving understanding of anti-Semitism.
> 
> ...



That's doable though I think. It's good to criticize China's disgusting repression and killing of Uighurs alongside Saudi Arabia's disgusting repression and killing of Yemenis alongside Israel's disgusting repression and killing of Palestinians.


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## littlebabyjesus (Oct 31, 2020)

two sheds said:


> That's doable though I think. It's good to criticize China's disgusting repression and killing of Uighurs alongside Saudi Arabia's disgusting repression and killing of Yemenis alongside Israel's disgusting repression and killing of Palestinians.


Yes, and when I say that I dislike the idea of a 'Jewish state', I actually am always careful to add that I also dislike the idea of an Islamic state or a Christian state or a Hindu state. Those who push such ideas are invariably reactionary, exclusionary forces. I'd like to see the world moving beyond that.

But that interview with the ambassador provides an example of where I might get into trouble. He laughably states that Arab Israelis are equal citizens, nothing to see here. Setting aside the problems with that within Israel itself, it simply ignores the Arabs who have lived under Israeli domination since 1967. Making a comparison between the occupied territories and South Africa's bantustans quite quickly leads to howls of anti-Semitism.


----------



## belboid (Oct 31, 2020)

I didn’t have to mention Angola when criticising apartheid South Africa so I’m fucked if I need to mention other places when criticising apartheid Israel.


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## gsv (Oct 31, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> How come you're singling out Israel? That's anti-Semitic.


Abso-lucking-futely.

Israel is culpable for an awful lot of ethno-vile shit. But nothing that isn't also seen in India (Kashmir), China, Burma, Sri Lanka and the US. Those just off the top of my head. The left protests Israel at a volume out of all proportion to those others. As a people persecuted over centuries for _not_ having a homeland, we call bullshit on now being persecuted for _having_ a homeland.


----------



## two sheds (Oct 31, 2020)

belboid said:


> I didn’t have to mention Angola when criticising apartheid South Africa so I’m fucked if I need to mention other places when criticising apartheid Israel.



I quite like it - putting them alongside other repressive regimes puts it into perspective somewhat.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 31, 2020)

belboid said:


> I didn’t have to mention Angola when criticising apartheid South Africa so I’m fucked if I need to mention other places when criticising apartheid Israel.


It's an inherently piss-weak argument of course. 'How come you're singling us out?' is a tacit acknowledgement that there is merit to the critcism.


----------



## gsv (Oct 31, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> It's an inherently piss-weak argument of course. 'How come you're singling us out?' is a tacit acknowledgement that there is merit to the critcism.


Oh look, the point went thaattaway!


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 31, 2020)

gsv said:


> Oh look, the point went thaattaway!


No, I understand the point. But it is used, and in the case of the Israeli governement massively abused, to shut down criticism of appalling behaviour.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 31, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> That's essentially the battleground now. How come you're singling out Israel? That's anti-Semitic.


Tend to agree; that and the whole issue of any attempt to establish the scale of the problem within the party. The logic of the grounds given for Corbyn's suspension would suggest that any questioning of the claims of the extent of Labour's antisemitism must be judged to constitute antisemitism. Could be a problem for Starmer if he starts to promote the idea that he has made progress in _cleaning the Augean stables._


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## littlebabyjesus (Oct 31, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Tend to agree; that and the whole issue of any attempt to establish the scale of the problem within the party. The logic of the grounds given for Corbyn's suspension would suggest that any questioning of the claims of the extent of Labour's antisemitism must be judged to constitute antisemitism. Could be a problem for Starmer if he starts to promote the idea that he has made progress in _cleaning the Augean stables._


Well that's where Starmer the forensic lawyer is in a mess, isn't he? The report explicitly mentions protection of the right to criticise the israeli government and the right to disagree as to the extent and nature of the problem of anti-Semitism within the Labour party.


----------



## Shechemite (Oct 31, 2020)

oryx said:


> Do you have a problem with the BLM movement?



No I think it’s entirely innocuous 









						BLM accused of anti-Semitism after posting photo of mural
					

The controversial mural, 'Freedom of Humanity', was posted online by Black Lives Matter Oxford as a cover photo on Facebook for an event.




					www.dailymail.co.uk


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## brogdale (Oct 31, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Well that's where Starmer the forensic lawyer is in a mess, isn't he? The report explicitly mentions protection of the right to criticise the israeli government and the right to disagree as to the extent and nature of the problem of anti-Semitism within the Labour party.


Dangerous (for Starmer) precedent has been set. 
Starmer : after 12 months of tireless work to address this problem I have reduced antisemitism within the LP significantly.
Campaign Against Antisemitism : not according to our observations and files...& to say otherwise is antisemitic.
Starmer : I have suspended myself pending investigation...

The LP now always has to be antisemitic and to say otherwise....


----------



## oryx (Oct 31, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> No I think it’s entirely innocuous
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Okay, so you don't like BLM, thanks for letting us know via a link (which I didn't open) to that well-known journalistic bastion of antiracism, The Daily Mail.

The same one which smeared Milliband senior as anti-British.

What about the rest of your dodgy comments?


----------



## Shechemite (Oct 31, 2020)

oryx said:


> Okay, so you don't like BLM, thanks for letting us know via a link (which I didn't open) to that well-known journalistic bastion of antiracism, The Daily Mail.
> 
> The same one which smeared Milliband senior as anti-British.
> 
> What about the rest of your dodgy comments?



Sorry you’re right. I should be linking to the Canary or some other ‘really’ anti-racist media. 

Do you think the anti-Jewish animus present in BLM is linked an anti-white animus?


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## belboid (Oct 31, 2020)

gsv said:


> Abso-lucking-futely.
> 
> Israel is culpable for an awful lot of ethno-vile shit. But nothing that isn't also seen in India (Kashmir), China, Burma, Sri Lanka and the US. Those just off the top of my head. The left protests Israel at a volume out of all proportion to those others. As a people persecuted over centuries for _not_ having a homeland, we call bullshit on now being persecuted for _having_ a homeland.


Israel (not you) is criticised for creating a homeland by dispossessing the people who already lived there. It created that homeland by using the tactics it now condemns when used against them.  It set up an explicitly racist state where the Arab population that was allowed to remain are third class citizens. And it did all that with the explicit help and support of the British state (even while the gangs were killing British squaddies).

those are fundamental differences with all the other examples you give.   Oppression in many other states is indeed also appalling, but they don’t provide an excuse for not condemning Israeli violence, or - most importantly - it doesn’t mean we shouldn’t call for a complete boycott of Israeli goods and a stopping of military support.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 31, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Sorry you’re right. I should be linking to the Canary or some other ‘really’ anti-racist media.
> 
> Do you think the anti-Jewish animus present in BLM is linked an anti-white animus?


Did you read your own link?

I'm not going to defend using that mural, which I agree is very clearly anti-Semitic. However, neither is Oxford BLM...



> The group has now taken down the picture from the event and tweeted an apology.
> 
> A statement said: 'We understand that recently an antisemitic image was used on one of our events. This is deeply concerning and the person who used the image is deeply sorry. We absolutely do not condone the image used and have since removed it.
> 
> ...


----------



## gsv (Oct 31, 2020)

belboid yes of course the specifics for Israel are specific to Israel. The ethnic oppression issues are common to all of those. And you're finding reasons to dump exclusively on Jews.


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## stethoscope (Oct 31, 2020)

BLM is decentralised like lots of movements - I've called out shit whether racist, classist, anti-semitic, and otherwise unhelpful, amongst people in various groups/actions I've been involved over the years. I've never seen such a movement not end up with that awkward rubbing up of different politics and positions under that, and unavoidably some pretty batshit and unpleasant stuff too - Occupy had exactly the same problem. And it needs people to call it out.

Regardless, how that ends up being extrapolated or conflated as a whole movement being a problem as implied above, I don't get. I mean, I got personally frustrated with seeing some of the anti-trans sentiment and broader 'iffy' views of some people who were particularly vocal around the social housing/Grenfell actions and because of that I held back a little from getting involved as I would have liked. However, its primary aims were sound as were many of the people involved, and as a decentralised set of groups/actions that is something that is difficult to escape sadly without it being challenged.

All of which is very different when applied to a political party structure and actions of its members. As we've seen through this whole sordid affair with Labour.

I'm unsure what is to be gained by channeling like a sub-Posie Parker either.


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## belboid (Oct 31, 2020)

gsv said:


> belboid yes of course the specifics for Israel are specific to Israel. The ethnic oppression issues are common to all of those. And you're finding reasons to dump exclusively on Jews.


No.  I am opposing a state and it’s actions not an ethnicity or a religion.  And I can oppose several governments at the same time, whilst mentioning them all individually.  

you’re rationale sounds horribly similar to SA apartheid apologists who said ‘well the uk is racist too, and Angola’s really awful.’


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## bimble (Oct 31, 2020)

You think it’s intentional in some way gsv the way that Israel’s crimes are much more energising to people than those other countries? I don’t think it’s at all that simple , don’t think anyone  is consciously choosing to ‘dump on jews’ it’s more interesting than that, imo, but the level at which this conversation’s being had here is just basic as duck and not going to go anywhere imo.


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## littlebabyjesus (Oct 31, 2020)

gsv said:


> belboid yes of course the specifics for Israel are specific to Israel. The ethnic oppression issues are common to all of those. And you're finding reasons to dump exclusively on Jews.


Aren't you mirroring the mistake made by anti-Semitic critics of Israel - namely conflating 'Israel/Israeli' with 'Jews/Jewish'?


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## gsv (Oct 31, 2020)

I don't think it's intentional bimble, though I see it reads that way. I think some people* are in a centuries-old habit of considering Jews a legitimate target. And need to introspect that a little.

* absolutely includes JC and his bunch


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## Knotted (Oct 31, 2020)

gsv said:


> belboid yes of course the specifics for Israel are specific to Israel. The ethnic oppression issues are common to all of those. And you're finding reasons to dump exclusively on Jews.



I've seen a few anti-semites talk about Israel but I've never seen any one of them express exclusive concern about the plight of Palestinians as opposed to eg. Uighurs or Kurds. They are much more interested in supposed Israeli influence. I'm willing to wager that in this country at least it is never about the threat posed to Arabs in a distant country and always the threat posed to themselves and people like them. Indeed, how else is demagogy supposed to work? But in any case where is the empirical basis that anti-semites are agitating against Jews by not talking about Uighurs and Kurds, how does this work, what are the real life examples?

I appreciate there can be a bit of monomania regarding Israel/Palestine with certain leftwingers. But then it's been a cause that has gestated for decades. you don't have to reach to explain that monomania. And whatever the problems may be with monomania, it isn't in itself a form racism. No more than the monomania with apartheid South Africa in the 80's was a form of racism.


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## JimW (Oct 31, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Aren't you mirroring the mistake made by anti-Semitic critics of Israel - namely conflating 'Israel/Israeli' with 'Jews/Jewish'?


Don't think that bit actually follows - you're still accusing the people more interested in Israel than elsewhere of making that conflation, doesn't matter if you do or don't, point is in their heads it's happening.


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## gsv (Oct 31, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Aren't you mirroring the mistake made by anti-Semitic critics of Israel - namely conflating 'Israel/Israeli' with 'Jews/Jewish'?


I'm calling it out, not mirroring it.


----------



## tim (Oct 31, 2020)

Hyperdark said:


> Attempting a debate relating to religon with the adherent to any religon is a complete waste of time, once indoctrinated myths become facts and facts become plastic.



 Says the person indoctrinated with myths about the adherents of religion.


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## littlebabyjesus (Oct 31, 2020)

gsv said:


> I'm calling it out, not mirroring it.


Except that the evidence of its existence in this case isn't a statement that conflates 'Israeli' with 'Jewish' (and we all know that it's not hard to find such things being said on the left, hence the existence of this thread). It's simply the fact, or impression, or assumption, that Israel is being singled out. That's a very dangerous route to take, precisely because it lumps anti-Semitic criticism of Israel together with criticism that contains no anti-Semitism beyond that implied by assumptions about why the criticism is being made. It's a bulletproof position.


----------



## two sheds (Oct 31, 2020)

bimble said:


> You think it’s intentional in some way gsv the way that Israel’s crimes are much more energising to people than those other countries? I don’t think it’s at all that simple , don’t think anyone  is consciously choosing to ‘dump on jews’ it’s more interesting than that, imo, but the level at which this conversation’s being had here is just basic as duck and not going to go anywhere imo.



It's difficult though bimble. For example I'm getting emails from Medical Aid for Palestinians saying that there's a real emergency now, particularly with coronavirus, because they're running out of medical supplies. It's being made worse by the blockade, which  implicitly criticizes Israel, but Is me mentioning this without discussing China or the Saudis anti-semitic?


----------



## Idris2002 (Oct 31, 2020)

belboid said:


> I didn’t have to mention Angola when criticising apartheid South Africa so I’m fucked if I need to mention other places when criticising apartheid Israel.


Those were different times. Really. A major failure of the left is that it assumed that models developed in a past era in southern Africa could be transferred en bloc to the Israeli/Palestinian context. The similarities between the two cases were real and important - but the differences were, and are, even more important.


----------



## bimble (Oct 31, 2020)

two sheds said:


> It's difficult though bimble. For example I'm getting emails from Medical Aid for Palestinians saying that there's a real emergency now, particularly with coronavirus, because they're running out of medical supplies. It's being made worse by the blockade, which  implicitly criticizes Israel, but Is me mentioning this without discussing China or the Saudis anti-semitic?


No, it’s not. nor would be mentioning the lack of water in Gaza, or giving all your time and money to one chosen cause that you care about over another of the countless injustices in the world. That should be obvious, imo. 
tbh I can’t really do this subject here, it seems like people whose thoughts I usually find interesting are stuck at an incredibly simplistic sort of level when discussing this subject, so it’s saddening and repetitious.


----------



## Idris2002 (Oct 31, 2020)

two sheds said:


> It's difficult though bimble. For example I'm getting emails from Medical Aid for Palestinians saying that there's a real emergency now, particularly with coronavirus, because they're running out of medical supplies. It's being made worse by the blockade, which  implicitly criticizes Israel, but Is me mentioning this without discussing China or the Saudis anti-semitic?


"Other humanitarian catastrophes are available" - sorted.


----------



## Raheem (Oct 31, 2020)

Wilf said:


> _*'Funny that, my brother's a nonce too!'*_


"Bet you never thought the day would come when you'd be drinking tea with a sworn enemy of the British people who'd like nothing better than seeing the Queen's head on a spike."

"No, never, Your Highness."


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 31, 2020)

gsv said:


> Abso-lucking-futely.
> 
> Israel is culpable for an awful lot of ethno-vile shit. But nothing that isn't also seen in India (Kashmir), China, Burma, Sri Lanka and the US. Those just off the top of my head. The left protests Israel at a volume out of all proportion to those others. As a people persecuted over centuries for _not_ having a homeland, we call bullshit on now being persecuted for _having_ a homeland.


Not for having a homeland but for what you do with it. How do you feel about the conditions the Israeli government imposes on Gaza's residents and the illegal settlements in the West Bank?


----------



## gsv (Oct 31, 2020)

What _I_ do with it? I'm British. Never been Israeli. That attitude right there's part of the problem.


----------



## rummo (Oct 31, 2020)

Idris2002 said:


> Yeah it seems ok - my only problem isI'd hate to forward the link on, only to be told there was something dodgy elsewhere on their site.


 

It's a respectable site.
Peter Oborne is a well known and respected journalist in the mainstream media though he is unusual in being principled and forthright.
He's also an old school Tory and cricket fanatic.
His twitter feed is interesting.


----------



## belboid (Oct 31, 2020)

Idris2002 said:


> Those were different times. Really. A major failure of the left is that it assumed that models developed in a past era in southern Africa could be transferred en bloc to the Israeli/Palestinian context. The similarities between the two cases were real and important - but the differences were, and are, even more important.


you can't simply transpose the way of ending South African apartheid onto Israeli apartheid, for sure, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't point out that they are both apartheid states.  And any reasonable human being opposes apartheid. This is an important point to make.


----------



## belboid (Oct 31, 2020)

gsv said:


> What _I_ do with it? I'm British. Never been Israeli. That attitude right there's part of the problem.


well you were the one doing the conflating of criticism of Israel with criticism of jews. So maybe the problem is yours.


----------



## two sheds (Oct 31, 2020)

belboid said:


> you can't simply transpose the way of ending South African apartheid onto Israeli apartheid, for sure, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't point out that they are both apartheid states.  And any reasonable human being opposes apartheid. This is an important point to make.



I made that point, only less forcefully, on the on-line antisemitism course I did and was called antisemitic for it.


----------



## gsv (Oct 31, 2020)

belboid said:


> well you were the one doing the conflating of criticism of Israel with criticism of jews. So maybe the problem is yours.


That's not true.


----------



## belboid (Oct 31, 2020)

gsv said:


> That's not true.



oh yes it is



gsv said:


> belboid yes of course the specifics for *Israel *are specific to *Israel*. The ethnic oppression issues are common to all of those. And you're finding reasons to dump exclusively on *Jews*.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 31, 2020)

Idris2002 said:


> Those were different times. Really. A major failure of the left is that it assumed that models developed in a past era in southern Africa could be transferred en bloc to the Israeli/Palestinian context. The similarities between the two cases were real and important - but the differences were, and are, even more important.


So a comparison with SA is a start to a conversation rather than an end. Fine. But that cuts two ways. Those pointing out differences to explain why they dislike the comparison also need to recognise why the similarities are pointed out and the strength of feeling behind the position, which cannot  be dismissed so easily as, for instance, internalised historical prejudice.


----------



## Knotted (Oct 31, 2020)

I really wish conversations about anti-Semitism would not descend into conversations about Israel. The latter never enlightens the former.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 31, 2020)

Knotted said:


> I really wish conversations about anti-Semitism would not descend into conversations about Israel. The latter never enlightens the former.


In the context of a conversation about anti-Semitism and Labour, it's pretty much unavoidable.


----------



## Knotted (Oct 31, 2020)

Well yes, that's definitely the way it usually pans out. But it never helps.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 31, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> In the context of a conversation about anti-Semitism and Labour, it's pretty much unavoidable.


Yep, and in the context of an organisation that that adopted the IHRA working definition of antisemitism that makes 9 references to the state of Israel.


----------



## gsv (Oct 31, 2020)

belboid said:


> oh yes it is


You're a racist prick.

Edit.
Let me qualify that. For most people it's something they're not really concious of. In your case you're jumping through rhetorical hoops to maintain your position. You making an active effort to maintain a racist rhetoric. That puts you firmly in the category.


----------



## bimble (Oct 31, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Yep, and in the context of an organisation that that adopted the IHRA working definition of antisemitism that makes 9 references to the state of Israel.


You might conclude that the two things (antisemitism on the left and the state of Israel) are connected! Maybe even in ways that would be well worth intelligently talking about and understanding! But that never happens, we just get the same stupid quagmire every time, for decades.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Oct 31, 2020)

gsv said:


> You're a racist prick.
> 
> Edit.
> Let me qualify that. For most people it's something they're not really concious of. In your case you're jumping through rhetorical hoops to maintain your position. You making an active effort to maintain a racist rhetoric. That puts you firmly in the category.


Well, judging by your remarks you are a complete pillock. You may not be conscious of this, but I'm putting you firmly in that category.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 31, 2020)

bimble said:


> You might conclude that the two things (antisemitism on the left and the state of Israel) are connected! Maybe even in ways that would be well worth intelligently talking about and understanding! But that never happens, we just get the same stupid quagmire every time, for decades.


I think I'm right in saying that all 3 mainstream political parties in the UK have effectively adopted the IHRA definition that makes 9 references to Israel. Not quite sure what your point is.


----------



## Knotted (Oct 31, 2020)

brogdale said:


> I think I'm right in saying that all 3 mainstream political parties in the UK have effectively adopted the IHRA definition that makes 9 references to Isrrael. Not quite sure what your point is.



If you're like me and you don't see this as a good thing, then the best policy is not to encourage them. No? Otherwise we end up with posts like gsv's and people shouting "racist!" at each other.


----------



## bimble (Oct 31, 2020)

.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 31, 2020)

gsv said:


> What _I_ do with it? I'm British. Never been Israeli. That attitude right there's part of the problem.


ah right, you're taking the wee. the 'we' in your post didn't actually mean we. my you wasn't you gsv but to your we. are we ie you and me on the same page now?


----------



## belboid (Oct 31, 2020)

gsv said:


> You're a racist prick.
> 
> Edit.
> Let me qualify that. For most people it's something they're not really concious of. In your case you're jumping through rhetorical hoops to maintain your position. You making an active effort to maintain a racist rhetoric. That puts you firmly in the category.


Don't blame me for your words, sunshine.  You are the one claiming that me criticising apartheid Israel is me condemning jews.  You've come out with the usual lazy whatabouterries and not actually responded to any of the criticisms or points being made.  You're being very dishonest, which is why you have nothing left but to whine 'ooh you're a racist'.   For condemning apartheid


----------



## brogdale (Oct 31, 2020)

Knotted said:


> If you're like me and you don't see this as a good thing, then the best policy is not to encourage them. No? Otherwise we end up with posts like gsv's and people shouting "racist!" at each other.


Personally, I think that any organisation adopting any definition of racism that refers to the actions of a state holds obvious pitfalls.


----------



## Knotted (Oct 31, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Personally, I think that any organisation adopting any definition of racism that refers to the actions of a state holds obvious pitfalls.



Yeah, me too. And what's more that's all that needs to be said on the subject. As soon as we're into details about eg. what does and does not constitute apartheid then we've lost.


----------



## belboid (Oct 31, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Personally, I think that any organisation adopting any definition of racism that refers to the actions of a state holds obvious pitfalls.


Of course the _definition _makes no such mention, it's just in the stupid examples.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 31, 2020)

belboid said:


> Of course the _definition _makes no such mention, it's just in the stupid examples.


Yep, but the whole thing was adopted in full.


----------



## gsv (Oct 31, 2020)

belboid said:


> Don't blame me for your words, sunshine.  You are the one claiming that me criticising apartheid Israel is me condemning jews.  You've come out with the usual lazy whatabouterries and not actually responded to any of the criticisms or points being made.  You're being very dishonest, which is why you have nothing left but to whine 'ooh you're a racist'.   For condemning apartheid


"Israel is culpable for an awful lot of ethno-vile shit" – me, a whole page back
I don't duck questions about Israel and I don't think anyone's asked me my views on apartheid. You'll clearly impute whatever you want and play a soundbite game. You're comfortable in your views...which are clearly racist. Your self-image insists that you're not, but that doesn't change your behaviour.


----------



## belboid (Oct 31, 2020)

gsv said:


> "Israel is culpable for an awful lot of ethno-vile shit" – me, a whole page back
> I don't duck questions about Israel and I don't think anyone's asked me my views on apartheid. You'll clearly impute whatever you want and play a soundbite game. You're comfortable in your views...which are clearly racist. Your self-image insists that you're not, but that doesn't change your behaviour.


Repeating things doesn't make them true. And making things up doesn't make them true either.  i have no idea if you are actually a supporter of Israeli apartheid (which didn't start with the last atrocity or the last invasion of Gaza, it is the premise for the Israeli states existence), or just a bit thick.  Either way, you are the one claiming the opposing a specific state is racist, whilst at the same time claiming that conflating that state with that ethnicity/religion is racist.  You can't have it both ways.


----------



## belboid (Oct 31, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Yep, but the whole thing was adopted in full.


Pretty much only by the Labour Party, the vast majority of other organisations that have done so have only gone with the actual definition bit.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 31, 2020)

belboid said:


> Pretty much only by the Labour Party, the vast majority of other organisations that have done so have only gone with the actual definition bit.


Not according to this:


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 31, 2020)

belboid said:


> Repeating things doesn't make them true. And making things up doesn't make them true either.  i have no idea if you are actually a supporter of Israeli apartheid (which didn't start with the last atrocity or the last invasion of Gaza, it is the premise for the Israeli states existence), or just a bit thick.  Either way, you are the one claiming the opposing a specific state is racist, whilst at the same time claiming that conflating that state with that ethnicity/religion is racist.  You can't have it both ways.


Not to mention it's nothing to do with him guv despite his it's our homeland


----------



## belboid (Oct 31, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Not according to this:
> 
> View attachment 236778


fair play, I forgot they existed


----------



## bimble (Oct 31, 2020)

gsv and belboid Do you think there’s even the tiniest chance you’ll change each others minds or crowbar a new thought into the other one’s brain? Because if not why do this shit same old dance. It actually makes things a little bit worse every time, in a real way, imo.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 31, 2020)

belboid said:


> fair play, I forgot they existed


Nah, not just them, sorry (bad cropping) that top refers to the Tories.


----------



## gsv (Oct 31, 2020)

I'm not going to convince him of anything. He's going to selectively read anything I write and twist it as far as necessary to fit his narrative. I'm not going to bother.


----------



## belboid (Oct 31, 2020)

bimble said:


> gsv and belboid Do you think there’s even the tiniest chance you’ll change each others minds or crowbar a new thought into the other one’s brain? Because if not why do this shit same old dance. It actually makes things a little bit worse every time, in a real way, imo.


I doubt I will change gsv's view (tho we can and should always hope), but we are having this discussion in front of an audience.  It is only through having an argument in full that we can lay out a complete(r) picture, by asking questions we can tease out the issues and questions involved in our 'headline' views.


----------



## belboid (Oct 31, 2020)

gsv said:


> I'm not going to convince him of anything. He's going to selectively read anything I write and twist it as far as necessary to fit his narrative. I'm not going to bother.


Please point out and make your case for where I have done this.  You keep just making broad statements (which I disagree with) and thinking you've made an argument. But you haven't.


----------



## gsv (Oct 31, 2020)

Not playing your game belboid.


----------



## belboid (Oct 31, 2020)

I'm not playing a game, if that is how you see it, you should go away and have a word with yourself.


----------



## gsv (Oct 31, 2020)

Empty rhetoric


----------



## brogdale (Oct 31, 2020)

Fucking hell, this i so shit I'm going to listen to Johnson's pressa


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 31, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Fucking hell, this i so shit I'm going to listen to Johnson's pressa


Desperate times


----------



## two sheds (Oct 31, 2020)

rummo said:


> It's a respectable site.
> Peter Oborne is a well known and respected journalist in the mainstream media though he is unusual in being principled and forthright.
> He's also an old school Tory and cricket fanatic.
> His twitter feed is interesting.



I'd love to believe you (and a good first post  ) but my only problem is I'd hate to forward your link on, only to be told there was something dodgy elsewhere on your site.


----------



## rummo (Oct 31, 2020)

two sheds said:


> I'd love to believe you (and a good first post  ) but my only problem is I'd hate to forward your link on, only to be told there was something dodgy elsewhere on your site.



It's not my link and it's not my site. 

You could maybe do an internet search for the site or the two journalists of that article if you are genuinely concerned.

It's instructive though how fear and paranoia can be used curtail discussion and enquiry into certain topics.

Who benefits from that?


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 31, 2020)

rummo said:


> Who benefits from that?


Is it Jews?


----------



## teqniq (Oct 31, 2020)

two sheds said:


> I'd love to believe you (and a good first post  ) but my only problem is I'd hate to forward your link on, only to be told there was something dodgy elsewhere on your site.


They're talking about the middle east eye piece that I linked to and wot you read.


----------



## belboid (Oct 31, 2020)

two sheds said:


> I'd love to believe you (and a good first post  ) but my only problem is I'd hate to forward your link on, only to be told there was something dodgy elsewhere on your site.


Is there a single site in the world that doesn’t have something dodgy on it somewhere?


----------



## two sheds (Oct 31, 2020)

teqniq said:


> They're talking about the middle east eye piece that I linked to and wot you read.



I know  I just copied your post (Yeah it seems ok - my only problem isI'd hate to forward the link on, only to be told there was something dodgy elsewhere on their site. ) in reply 

It's their first post so somebody coming on saying "it's good" doesn't help if we don't know who they are. 

Sorry rummo it was a (poor) joke rather than trying to get at you - as I say it was a good first post.


----------



## two sheds (Oct 31, 2020)

belboid said:


> Is there a single site in the world that doesn’t have something dodgy on it somewhere?


Indeed, try linking to the Sun or Mail on here though


----------



## rummo (Oct 31, 2020)

danny la rouge said:


> Is it Jews?


 

No, it's not Jews. It's those, Jews and non Jews, who have weaponised anti Semitism to shut down discussion or criticism of the excesses of Zionism in particular, and, more generally in this context, the sort of socialism that Jeremy Corbyn represents.

If you are struggling with this try to remember that not all Jews are Zionists and most Zionists aren't Jews.


----------



## two sheds (Oct 31, 2020)

rummo said:


> most Zionists aren't Jews.



I'm with you up until that point. Are they not? Christians in the USA for example do you mean?


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 31, 2020)

rummo said:


> If you are struggling with this try


If you’re here long enough to get to know me, I still won’t let you talk to me like that.


----------



## two sheds (Oct 31, 2020)

danny la rouge said:


> If you’re here long enough to get to know me, I still won’t let you talk to me like that.



Be fair, you did start off with 



danny la rouge said:


> Is it Jews?


----------



## rummo (Oct 31, 2020)

two sheds said:


> I'm with you up until that point. Are they not? Christians in the USA for example do you mean?


 

It's everyone, whatever their nationality, ethnicity or religious affinity who supports the concept of Zionism, which is a political belief, that's all it is.

How many people in the UK support Zionism? How many of them are Jewish? Do the math. Most Zionists are not Jewish.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Oct 31, 2020)

rummo said:


> It's everyone, whatever their nationality, ethnicity or religious affinity who supports the concept of Zionism, which is a political belief, that's all it is.
> 
> How many people in the UK support Zionism? How many of them are Jewish? Do the math. Most Zionists are not Jewish.


Hang on. Even if many people in the UK support Israel, that doesn't make them Zionists. They may, for whatever reason, identify with or support Israel but don't necessarily support Zionism as a concept or even understand it or know anything about it.


----------



## two sheds (Oct 31, 2020)

rummo said:


> It's everyone, whatever their nationality, ethnicity or religious affinity who supports the concept of Zionism, which is a political belief, that's all it is.
> 
> How many people in the UK support Zionism? How many of them are Jewish? Do the math. Most Zionists are not Jewish.



Zionism as in state of Israel yes I'd agree and that would make me a Zionist, but doesn't it also include the state of Palestine in which case I wouldn't be a Zionist, and I think many in the UK wouldn't be either if the difference was explained to them.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 31, 2020)

two sheds said:


> I'm with you up until that point. Are they not? Christians in the USA for example do you mean?


Oh dear oh dear


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 31, 2020)

two sheds said:


> Be fair, you did start off with


When a first time poster picks this thread as the one to start off on, I have to admit it sets my antenna tingling.


----------



## rummo (Oct 31, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> Hang on. Even if many people in the UK support Israel, that doesn't make them Zionists. They may, for whatever reason, identify with or support Israel but don't necessarily support Zionism as a concept or even understand it or know anything about it.





The point still stands. Most Zionists are not Jewish.

Moreover to assume, as the 'Is it the Jews' question did, that all Jews are Zionists is arguably in itself anti Semitic.


----------



## two sheds (Oct 31, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Oh dear oh dear



well the fundamentalists want it to herald the second coming of Christ don't they?


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 31, 2020)

rummo said:


> Moreover to assume, as the 'Is it the Jews' question did, that all Jews are Zionists


It did nothing of the sort. You filled the rest in yourself.

I’ll admit I’m making assumptions about you, too.  I might be wrong. But we’ll see.


----------



## bimble (Oct 31, 2020)

rummo has rocked up with a really clever idea which is that the word zionist means any person who, if you ask them, might say that a country called  israel has the same 'right to exist' as whatever other state, that's it. its very insightful and will advance the conversation a lot.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 31, 2020)

danny la rouge said:


> It did nothing of the sort. You filled the rest in yourself.
> 
> I’ll admit I’m making assumptions about you, too.  I might be wrong. But we’ll see.


Put a fiver on it?


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 31, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Put a fiver on it?


What, that rummo is a statist “anti imperialist” who thinks their enemy’s enemy is their friend and is probably a fan of Vanessa Beeley?  Because that’s what I’m offering bets on.


----------



## rummo (Oct 31, 2020)

bimble said:


> rummo has rocked up with a really clever idea which is that the word zionist means any person who, if you ask them, might say that a country called  israel has the same 'right to exist' as whatever other state, that's it. its very insightful and will advance the conversation a lot.





I've said that most Zionists aren't Jewish.

Hardly a controversial or novel point, thought some here seem to find the concept troublesome, or maybe suspect that they are somehow being played or lured into a trap.


----------



## krtek a houby (Oct 31, 2020)

rummo said:


> I've said that most Zionists aren't Jewish.
> 
> Hardly a controversial or novel point, thought some here seem to find the concept troublesome, or maybe suspect that they are somehow being played or lured into a trap.



Most new posters aren't authentic, so some here could be forgiven for being suspicious.


----------



## Shechemite (Oct 31, 2020)

rummo said:


> No, it's not Jews. It's those, Jews and non Jews, who have weaponised anti Semitism to shut down discussion or criticism of the excesses of Zionism in particular, and, more generally in this context, the sort of socialism that Jeremy Corbyn represents.
> 
> If you are struggling with this try to remember that not all Jews are Zionists and most Zionists aren't Jews.



And we’re off!


----------



## Serge Forward (Oct 31, 2020)

danny la rouge said:


> What, that rummo is a statist “anti imperialist” who thinks their enemy’s enemy is their friend and is probably a fan of Vanessa Beeley?  Because that’s what I’m offering bets on.


If you add one more to that list, could we make it a yankee bet?


----------



## Idris2002 (Oct 31, 2020)

Here we go


----------



## miktheword (Nov 1, 2020)

Middle Eastern Eye has been linked to on here before, maybe the Corbyn thread, as I remember reading the Oborne article on him a while back ; just seen it was June. So if dodgy, woulda thought someone woulda flagged it up back then.
and doubt if Oborne would put himself at risk by writing in it.









						The killing of Jeremy Corbyn
					

The former Labour leader was the victim of a carefully planned and brutally executed political assassination




					www.middleeasteye.net


----------



## Jay Park (Nov 1, 2020)

two sheds said:


> Zionism as in state of Israel yes I'd agree and that would make me a Zionist, but doesn't it also include the state of Palestine in which case I wouldn't be a Zionist, and I think many in the UK wouldn't be either if the difference was explained to them.



or the appalling apartheid policies, zero access to their own water source, and the fact that every month a little bit more land is removed from Palestinian ownership.


----------



## Jay Park (Nov 1, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Put a fiver on it?



i’ll take that bet, can I pay in Turkish Lira should I lose?


----------



## Jay Park (Nov 1, 2020)

belboid said:


> Repeating things doesn't make them true. And making things up doesn't make them true either.  i have no idea if you are actually a supporter of Israeli apartheid (which didn't start with the last atrocity or the last invasion of Gaza, it is the premise for the Israeli states existence), or just a bit thick.  Either way, you are the one claiming the opposing a specific state is racist, whilst at the same time claiming that conflating that state with that ethnicity/religion is racist.  You can't have it both ways.



Many Israeli’s I’ve come across are quick to offer the idea that the state and religion are separate. But as Butcher’s posted yonks back, that war criminal Netanyahu lost control of the right-wing elements of the media. You try having an open discourse about the oppressive nature of Israel with Israeli Jews, things often turn violent.


----------



## Jay Park (Nov 1, 2020)

I guess I’m only reiterating this for my own solidification of the state of affairs there, as you lot are almost certainly well informed than I.


----------



## Jay Park (Nov 1, 2020)

two sheds said:


> It's difficult though bimble. For example I'm getting emails from Medical Aid for Palestinians saying that there's a real emergency now, particularly with coronavirus, because they're running out of medical supplies. It's being made worse by the blockade, which  implicitly criticizes Israel, but Is me mentioning this without discussing China or the Saudis anti-semitic?



no


----------



## Jay Park (Nov 1, 2020)

bimble said:


> No, it’s not. nor would be mentioning the lack of water in Gaza, or giving all your time and money to one chosen cause that you care about over another of the countless injustices in the world. That should be obvious, imo.
> tbh I can’t really do this subject here, it seems like people whose thoughts I usually find interesting are stuck at an incredibly simplistic sort of level when discussing this subject, so it’s saddening and repetitious.



such sanctimonious language. Come on Dr. Geo-politics, enlighten us some more...


----------



## Jay Park (Nov 1, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> So a comparison with SA is a start to a conversation rather than an end. Fine. But that cuts two ways. Those pointing out differences to explain why they dislike the comparison also need to recognise why the similarities are pointed out and the strength of feeling behind the position, which cannot  be dismissed so easily as, for instance, internalised historical prejudice.



you mention ‘the end’. South African apartheid finally ended, do you foresee the same thing happening in Israel?


----------



## bimble (Nov 1, 2020)

Jay Park said:


> such sanctimonious language. Come on Dr. Geo-politics, enlighten us some more...


Nah you carry on. I know that looked like arrogance but it was just exhaustion, It’s not geopolitics I know anything about just antisemitism.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 1, 2020)

Jay Park said:


> you mention ‘the end’. South African apartheid finally ended, do you foresee the same thing happening in Israel?


Soz starting backwards today but we have I trust covered the relationship between apartheid South Africa and Israel


----------



## tim (Nov 1, 2020)

Jay Park said:


> You try having an open discourse about the oppressive nature of Israel with Israeli Jews, things often turn violent.



That depends on which Israeli Jews you talk to, and is little different from similar conversations with say some: Ulster Protestants; Polish Catholics; French Laicists; Saudi or Bahraini Sunni; Indian Hindus; British Brexiteers or Remainders; or Greek Orthodox.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 1, 2020)

French laicists eh? Those intolerant extremists? No reasoning with them.

That is also a first for me - a comparison of israel/palestine to brexit!

Heroic relativism.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 1, 2020)

Serge Forward said:


> If you add one more to that list, could we make it a yankee bet?



if I added returning poster what odds would I get?


----------



## Jay Park (Nov 1, 2020)

bimble said:


> Nah you carry on. I know that looked like arrogance but it was just exhaustion, It’s not geopolitics I know anything about just antisemitism.



I thought I quoted lilbabymessiah, didn’t mean to quote you


----------



## rummo (Nov 1, 2020)

danny la rouge said:


> What, that rummo is a statist “anti imperialist” who thinks their enemy’s enemy is their friend and is probably a fan of Vanessa Beeley?  Because that’s what I’m offering bets on.





miktheword said:


> Middle Eastern Eye has been linked to on here before, maybe the Corbyn thread, as I remember reading the Oborne article on him a while back ; just seen it was June. So if dodgy, woulda thought someone woulda flagged it up back then.
> and doubt if Oborne would put himself at risk by writing in it.
> 
> 
> ...




What's interesting is that because Middle East Eye takes a different editorial line to what we are all used to the default assumption by many is that it must be 'dodgy'.

I suppose that's how cultural hegemony works, albeit that it most other instances it's not imposed quite so emphatically.


----------



## tim (Nov 1, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> French laicists eh? Those intolerant extremists? No reasoning with them.


Not if you just want to wear a hijab or kippah there isn't.


----------



## 19force8 (Nov 1, 2020)

Jay Park said:


> I thought I quoted lilbabymessiah, didn’t mean to quote you


----------



## 19force8 (Nov 1, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> Hang on. Even if many people in the UK support Israel, that doesn't make them Zionists. They may, for whatever reason, identify with or support Israel but don't necessarily support Zionism as a concept or even understand it or know anything about it.


Really, you think there are people in the UK who have no idea about what the state of Israel is, but still support it?

Supporting something you don't understand or even know anything about doesn't let you off the hook for what it is you're supporting.


----------



## bimble (Nov 1, 2020)

damn cant believe i missed this what a lineup. 








						Welcome! You are invited to join a webinar: Reinstate Jeremy Corbyn! Why silence on the witch-hunt should never have been an option!. After registering, you will receive a confirmation email about joining the webinar.
					

Come along to discuss what we can do to fight the ongoing witch-hunt and the suspension of Jeremy Corbyn!  We will also discuss the EHRC report and the terrible response by Corbyn's chief of staff Karie Murphy who seems to stress in this article how keen the Corbyn leadership was to throw as...




					us02web.zoom.us


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 1, 2020)

bimble said:


> damn cant believe i missed this what a lineup.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


surprised gerry downing not on the panel


----------



## LDC (Nov 1, 2020)

bimble said:


> damn cant believe i missed this what a lineup.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Fucking hell. If they're on your side....


----------



## Shechemite (Nov 1, 2020)

bimble said:


> damn cant believe i missed this what a lineup.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Apt for Halloween


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Nov 1, 2020)

19force8 said:


> Really, you think there are people in the UK who have no idea about what the state of Israel is, but still support it?
> 
> Supporting something you don't understand or even know anything about doesn't let you off the hook for what it is you're supporting.


People know about the state of Israel, or think they do, but mostly know next to nothing about its establishment and history, nor of the history of Zionism or anti-Zionism before Israel was established. What they see in the Middle East is a functioning democracy surrounded by dictatorships and religious fanaticism. It's an incredibly uninformed vision, influenced by a media and establishment largely indifferent to the plight, suffering and oppression of the Palestinians. The rise of Islamic fundamentalism and associated barbarity has not helped. But that still does not mean that people buy into the philosophy and politics of Zionism. And I'm not letting people off hooks. If anything I'm saying that many people are only hanging onto their hook by a very slender thread.


----------



## Shechemite (Nov 1, 2020)

What’s the point of ‘anti-Zionism’?


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Nov 1, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> What’s the point of ‘anti-Zionism’?


Being against Zionism


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 1, 2020)

rummo said:


> What's interesting is that because Middle East Eye takes a different editorial line to what we are all used to the default assumption by many is that it must be 'dodgy'.
> 
> I suppose that's how cultural hegemony works, albeit that it most other instances it's not imposed quite so emphatically.


You quoted me there why?


----------



## rummo (Nov 1, 2020)

danny la rouge said:


> You quoted me there why?




No idea. Didn't intend to. Hope you're not too upset.

Is a formal apology required?


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 1, 2020)

rummo said:


> No idea. Didn't intend to. Hope you're not too upset.
> 
> Is a formal apology required?


No, just wondered if you had decided my view on Middle East Eye editorial policy.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Nov 1, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> What’s the point of ‘anti-Zionism’?



Say you think that the establishment of states specifically on particular ethnic lines probably isn't a good idea, then anti-Zionism would be a useful position in response to one specific example of such an approach. 

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## tim (Nov 1, 2020)

19force8 said:


> Really, you think there are people in the UK who have no idea about what the state of Israel is, but still support it?
> 
> Supporting something you don't understand or even know anything about doesn't let you off the hook for what it is you're supporting.



What "is" the State of Israel?

And does anything make it different from other states?


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 1, 2020)

tim said:


> What "is" the State of Israel?
> 
> And does anything make it different from other states?


It claims to be the state “for Jews”, (rather than say for “Israelis”), which makes it by definition racist in intent.


----------



## tim (Nov 1, 2020)

danny la rouge said:


> It claims to be the state “for Jews”, (rather than say for “Israelis”), which makes it by definition racist in intent.



Yes, and was so designated by the United Nations Partition decision in 1947. Pakistan is an Islamic Republic and the carnage of partion surrounding it's creatiin was far greater and comprehensive than that which happened in Palestine/Israel at the same time (Pakistan is 95-98% Muslim, in contrast 20+% of Israeli citizens are Muslims, Druze and Christian Arabs); Croatia and Serbia are _de facto _states for Roman Catholics and Orthodox respectively; post-war Poland was and remains a  Roman Catholic state the Jews and ethnic Germans  driven out and various population and territorial exchanges  in the East removing the Orthodox and Uniatate minorities.

Isn't "nation building" usually about racism by intent?


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 1, 2020)

tim said:


> Isn't "nation building" usually about racism by intent?


This conversation is too wide-ranging and academic to be that interesting to me. But I suppose you’d need to define “nation-building”, and place it in an historical framework, and so on.  But if the question is do I support the existence of states, then no, I don’t.  Do they exist? Yes, they do. Is it necessary for them to specify in their constitution which race they are designed to be for? No. Is it desirable?  No. Is it practicable? Not without racist policies and actions. Could a state of Israel be constituted to treat citizens of Israel equally regardless of ethnicity? Yes.  Does it? No.

That’s all getting away from the thread subject, though.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 1, 2020)

If the attributed Starmer quote is accurate, there may be a clue about how Corbyn will be allowed back into the fold/way out for Starmer?



I don't think that the LP will be able to avoid accepting that Corbyn's statement, though politically questionable, did not seek to deny or minimise the problem or say that antisemitism is _just_ exaggerated or _just_ part of a factional fight.


----------



## bimble (Nov 1, 2020)

When he says 'that combination hurt jewish people' did he mean the combination of.. 
1) our opponents and 
2) the media
?


----------



## JimW (Nov 1, 2020)

bimble said:


> When he says 'that combination hurt jewish people' did he mean the combination of..
> 1) our opponents and
> 2) the media
> ?


The grammar would suggest the combination of actual existing anti-Semites plus the over-exaggeration of the prevalence of the problem but it's not very clear.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 1, 2020)

tim said:


> Not if you just want to wear a hijab or kippah there isn't.


Or a cross. You left that out. I don't agree with that aspect of the French approach, fwiw. Doesn't make them extremists or fundamentalists or whatever else it is you're implying that they are.


----------



## bimble (Nov 1, 2020)

so he meant,
the one antisemite (who is one too many)
+
the exaggeration of the problem by our opponents & the media
=
hurt jewish people.

ok. I do wish he'd been a bit clearer because its always helpful when someone explains what it is that hurt you and what combination it is exactly that must never be repeated.
FWIW i think the above is true, there's no doubt in my mind that the whole shitshow has led to there being more not less of those one too many antisemites.


----------



## two sheds (Nov 1, 2020)

no, he clearly wasn't saying there was only one anti-semite.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 1, 2020)

bimble said:


> so he meant,
> the one antisemite (who is one too many)
> +
> the exaggeration of the problem by our opponents & the media
> ...


He doesn't imply that there was only one, though. He does imply that the level of anti-Semitism in the Labour party mirrors that of society in general, that it isn't a problem peculiar to the Labour party.


----------



## bimble (Nov 1, 2020)

i know!


----------



## belboid (Nov 1, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Or a cross. You left that out. I don't agree with that aspect of the French approach, fwiw. Doesn't make them extremists or fundamentalists or whatever else it is you're implying that they are.


Except they completely ignore crosses.  But another time, another place...


----------



## 19force8 (Nov 1, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> People know about the state of Israel, or think they do, but mostly know next to nothing about its establishment and history, nor of the history of Zionism or anti-Zionism before Israel was established. What they see in the Middle East is a functioning democracy surrounded by dictatorships and religious fanaticism. It's an incredibly uninformed vision, influenced by a media and establishment largely indifferent to the plight, suffering and oppression of the Palestinians. The rise of Islamic fundamentalism and associated barbarity has not helped. But that still does not mean that people buy into the philosophy and politics of Zionism. And I'm not letting people off hooks. If anything I'm saying that many people are only hanging onto their hook by a very slender thread.


True, the fact that someone holds and espouses Zionist ideas doesn't mean they've taken the time to study and contemplate the roots and implications of those ideas. Nevertheless, they have bought into aspects of Zionism. Just as someone who is only a bit racist is still a racist, so someone who holds to, say, only 25% of the tenets of Zionism is still a Zionist. Of course, sometimes it's necessary to differentiate between the ideas someone holds and the ideology those ideas come from, especially if you're trying to get them to change, but by and large, if walks like a duck.


----------



## Idris2002 (Nov 1, 2020)

rummo said:


> What's interesting is that because Middle East Eye takes a different editorial line to what we are all used to the default assumption by many is that it must be 'dodgy'.
> 
> I suppose that's how cultural hegemony works, albeit that it most other instances it's not imposed quite so emphatically.


No it's because the Palestinian issue for years has attracted a certain number of weird but certainly not wonderful individuals, who bear the Mark of the Loon upon them.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Nov 2, 2020)

I suspect most leftwing Jews can identify.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Nov 2, 2020)

This is pretty epic though. Long live this mum!


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 2, 2020)

Fucking hell. He's calling her out for being a nasty bully at a _primary school_. 

A 'fantastic Zionist' primary school.


----------



## bimble (Nov 2, 2020)

Oh my god people being nasty to each other on social media that is shocking but also relatable.


----------



## Shechemite (Nov 2, 2020)

Yeah but it’s pretty grim in any case 

Makes me glad my dad married out.


----------



## rummo (Nov 2, 2020)

Idris2002 said:


> No it's because the Palestinian issue for years has attracted a certain number of weird but certainly not wonderful individuals, who bear the Mark of the Loon upon them.




And Zionism hasn't?

Media coverage on the issue is so skewed  that any outlet that doesn't conform to the dominant position is assumed to be 'dodgy', even, so it seems, by those who might think of themselves as well informed. That's cultural hegemony in action. 

There's also a fear of the consequences of innocently or inadverantly linking to something that might even at several stages removed be connected with something'dodgy' and being set upon by an online army of witchfinders ready and willing to unleash the dogs on anyone they regard as a target.


----------



## Shechemite (Nov 2, 2020)

A Zionist once told me that Cuba was an antisemitic country because “if you go there on holiday* and fly the Israeli flag you’ll have problems”

I thought this was a bit of a mental thing to say (why would I waste a holiday in Cuba to wave the flag of some far off country)

*i had just tried to bully the Communist League to get me a trip to Cuba to inspect their mental health services.


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 2, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> “if you go there on holiday* and fly the Israeli flag you’ll have problems”


Did they mean literally or metaphorically?  

Either way, weird.


----------



## Shechemite (Nov 2, 2020)

Solomon fucked it by building that flashy temple. 

Taxed the fuck out of the people, laid the groundwork for rebellion in the north, the split of the kingdoms, the solidification of Judah-ist religion and polity, handed power to the Jerusalem aristocracy - who later added loads of the shit bits to the canon (such as the apocalyptic messianic stuff) and took the knee for the Persian tyrants in order to be allowed back to the land and impose their aristocratic counter-revolution on those who remained in the land (who had no interest in building another gaudy monstrosity in Jerusalem, despite their extant monotheism).


----------



## Shechemite (Nov 2, 2020)

danny la rouge said:


> Did they mean literally or metaphorically?
> 
> Either way, weird.



Literally. He wasn’t happy with me talking the Reds. 

Zionists are weird. ‘Come home to Israel’. No, sod off.


----------



## Shechemite (Nov 2, 2020)

“Israel is the ancestral home of the Jews.”

Er, can you keep that ‘indigenous’ stuff to yourselves. Doesn’t help tackle the ‘real’ antisemites in the galut.


----------



## Shechemite (Nov 2, 2020)

Can’t we just enjoy a sunny holiday. Haven’t our people suffered enough.


----------



## 19force8 (Nov 2, 2020)

A legend indeed!  



E2A

Sadly, not in the report, but I could have believed it if it was Hodge complaining.


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Nov 3, 2020)

gsv said:


> Dismissing allegations of anti-semitism with "proven links to the Israeli Embassy". There's a word for that.



factual: don’t you remember the undercover recordings featuring Regev? Or you do but hope nobody else does. There’s a word for that too



> In the opinion of many Jews (myself included) he patently is. Not that that's the core issue here.



you are right: many Jews seem to think JC anti Semitic, including Boris’ friend Mirvis. However other Jews, including those JC friendly with, disagree. I happen to agree with them, and believe there is a clear divide between anti-Zionism and anti-semitism. You disagree; but the numbers holding any view do not interest me, but the truth does.


----------



## rummo (Nov 3, 2020)

Larry O'Hara said:


> factual: don’t you remember the undercover recordings featuring Regev? Or you do but hope nobody else does. There’s a word for that too
> 
> 
> 
> you are right: many Jews seem to think JC anti Semitic, including Boris’ friend Mirvis. However other Jews, including those JC friendly with, disagree. I happen to agree with them, and believe there is a clear divide between anti-Zionism and anti-semitism. You disagree; but the numbers holding any view do not interest me, but the truth does.




And not just 'the wrong sort of Jews' either









						Is Jeremy Corbyn really anti-Semitic? | The Spectator
					

Is Jeremy Corbyn an anti-Semite? I began researching the answer to this question well before Danny Finkelstein’s recent revelation in the Times that eight years ago Corbyn had written a glowing foreword to a new edition of Imperialism: A Study, written by the radical economist John Atkinson...




					www.spectator.co.uk
				












						John Bercow: ‘I do not believe Jeremy Corbyn is anti-Semitic’
					

Alastair Campbell takes on John Bercow as the former speaker steps down after ten controversial years presiding over the House Of Commons, during which his private life became public and he was burnt in effigy as the Brexit debate turned toxic




					www.gq-magazine.co.uk


----------



## teqniq (Nov 3, 2020)

gsv said:


> ...In the opinion of many Jews (myself included) he patently is. Not that that's the core issue here.



Not this lady and, according to her many other Jewish people in his constituency:









						Being Jewish in North Islington Labour Party
					

Calling for Jeremy Corbyn's reinstatement, Lynne Segal looks back on her experience of 40 years as a party member in his constituency




					www.redpepper.org.uk


----------



## Shechemite (Nov 4, 2020)

Where does this ‘wrong sort of Jew’ phrase comes from?


----------



## Hyperdark (Nov 5, 2020)

bimble said:


> nobody is debating the tenets of judaism . idiot.




A fine illustration of my point, apparently you couldnt even see the words "relating to religon" in my post and instead rushed  straight into  name calling....enquire within


----------



## bimble (Nov 5, 2020)

oh hi again hyperdark. 


Hyperdark said:


> Attempting a debate relating to religon with the adherent to any religon is a complete waste of time, once indoctrinated myths become facts and facts become plastic.


so you just meant that any conversation about antisemitism should not have  any jews in it, got you. cool.


----------



## 19force8 (Nov 5, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Where does this ‘wrong sort of Jew’ phrase comes from?


It's a variant on a snowclone (a cliché that arose from British Rail's claim that the wrong type of snow fucked up its electrics in 1991) used by jewish people who didn't agree with the BoD/CAA take on Corbyn to explain (tongue in cheek) why their views were ignored by mainstream media.


----------



## Shechemite (Nov 5, 2020)

Right, so it’s not a term used about corbynista Jews, but a phrase used by them.


----------



## Shechemite (Nov 5, 2020)

JVL sure did appear a lot on mainstream media, for all they were ‘ignored’.


----------



## 19force8 (Nov 5, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Right, so it’s not a term used about corbynista Jews, but a phrase used by them.


By and about themselves and others who might not have been Corbynistas, but didn't agree with the mainstream narrative.


----------



## 19force8 (Nov 5, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> JVL sure did appear a lot on mainstream media, for all they were ‘ignored’.


I didn't say they were ignored. Although I should probably have added the qualification that "their views were *largely* ignored".

Bear in mind also that many of them were accused of not being Jewish and/or were called kapos.


----------



## Knotted (Nov 5, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> JVL sure did appear a lot on mainstream media, for all they were ‘ignored’.



The first time I heard the term was in relation to Jewdas and the Jewdas Seder Corbyn attended which caused a bit of furore.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 5, 2020)

Knotted said:


> The first time I heard the term was in relation to Jewdas and the Jewdas Seder Corbyn attended which caused a bit of furore.


As David Schneider put it, 



> 'Boo! Corbyn needs to get out and meets some Jews!' (Corbyn spends Passover with some Jews at Jewdas) 'Boo! Not those Jews!'


----------



## belboid (Nov 5, 2020)

It’s a slight twist on the old ‘self-hating Jew’ isn’t it? A phrase used by reform and Orthodox Jews about each other.   Herzl apparently was the first to use the exact phrase.


----------



## bimble (Nov 5, 2020)

belboid said:


> A phrase used by reform and Orthodox Jews about each other.



no, thats not at all how its used, never once heard it used in such a context but what do i know.


eta when's everyone going to stop talking about jews again please


----------



## belboid (Nov 5, 2020)

bimble said:


> no, thats not at all how its used, never once heard it used in such a context but what do i know.


‘originally used’ I should have said, not current use. 



> eta when's everyone going to stop talking about jews again please


When it’s not a thread about anti-semitism I’m guessing.


----------



## Shechemite (Nov 5, 2020)

‘Ooh we’re the wrong sort of jews’ ✊💦


----------



## Supine (Nov 5, 2020)

bimble said:


> no, thats not at all how its used, never once heard it used in such a context but what do i know.
> 
> 
> eta when's everyone going to stop talking about jews again please



Unlikely to happen on an anti-Semitism thread tbh.


----------



## Shechemite (Nov 5, 2020)

Are norton and Blumenthal the wrong sort of Jews or just a bit wrong? Are JVL a bunch of nobs or a persecuted section of the community? Jeremy Corbyn hit with evidence-free Russiagate-style allegations…


----------



## 19force8 (Nov 5, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> ‘Ooh we’re the wrong sort of jews’ ✊💦


Missing the point entirely

As usual


----------



## Shechemite (Nov 5, 2020)

Yeah a bunch of Trots and other oddballs refer to themselves with the self aggrandising term ‘wrong sort of Jew’.

that’s why labour lost comrade


----------



## 19force8 (Nov 5, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Yeah a bunch of Trots and other oddballs refer to themselves with the self aggrandising term ‘wrong sort of Jew’.
> 
> that’s why labour lost comrade


a) self deprecation, not aggrandising

b) nothing at all to do with why Labour lost, unless there were previously unknown Jewish communities in the "Red Wall"

c) JVL not even remotely "Trots" 

d) "oddballs" ?? check your privilege


----------



## bimble (Nov 5, 2020)

19force8 said:


> a) self deprecation, not aggrandising


Come on.  i used to call my own self exactly  that, a lot, back when i thought that was the cool thing to do, wore  the scarf and everything, loudly declare self 'the wrong kind of jew', the special different kind of jew that is palatable, that you can like. And it was 100% self aggrandising, and to ingratiate myself with people, or feel safe. Please, try to stop pontificating on what jews in general or as clumps of jews think,  would be better to just not.


----------



## 19force8 (Nov 6, 2020)

bimble said:


> Come on.  i used to call my own self exactly  that, a lot, back when i thought that was the cool thing to do, wore  the scarf and everything, loudly declare self 'the wrong kind of jew', the special different kind of jew that is palatable, that you can like. And it was 100% self aggrandising, and to ingratiate myself with people, or feel safe. Please, try to stop pontificating on what jews in general or as clumps of jews think,  would be better to just not.


What you're describing is the self deprecating boast. We all do it from time to time to make ourselves less threatening to people we want to like us. You might think that's the wrong sort of adjective to use, but 'self aggrandising' with its overtones of egotism, arrogance and overt boastfulness is no better.

The real problem here is that MiB thinks people like JVL and Jewdas really are the wrong sort of Jew and fields a bunch of antisemitic tropes to disparage them:

Trots - the Commie Jew
Oddballs - Jews don't fit in
Self aggrandising - the egotistical/arrogant Jew
They're the reason Labour lost - the dolchstosslegende or stab in the back


----------



## Idris2002 (Nov 9, 2020)

the best advice I ever got was, never, ever make self deprecating remarks


----------



## ska invita (Nov 9, 2020)

LBC phone in 

_Q: And what do you think about Shami Chakrabarti planning legal action against Jeremy Corbyn’s suspension?_

*Starmer* says he does not think Labour needs any more legal challenges.

Director of Prosecutions has prosecuted - there is nothing more to see here


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 9, 2020)

Idris2002 said:


> the best advice I ever got was, never, ever make self deprecating remarks


the best advice i ever got, via suggs, was always go for a piss before leaving the pub


----------



## bimble (Nov 12, 2020)

the wrong kind of anti Zionists. 

(this is not a serious post, just think its interesting that these of all people feel the need to use the euphemism).


----------



## two sheds (Nov 12, 2020)

and keeps the thread coming up to the top to remind people of the accusations


----------



## bimble (Nov 12, 2020)




----------



## bimble (Nov 12, 2020)

two sheds said:


> and keeps the thread coming up to the top to remind people of the accusations


That’s not my cunning plan, I promise, but as you like.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 12, 2020)

bimble said:


>



But what do you think?


----------



## bimble (Nov 12, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> But what do you think?


I am undecided, can’t yet tell whether it’s funny or not. Also his face looking straight out of the screen like that gives me the fear so that makes it harder to tell if funny or scary. The fact that he is ignoring George Galloway’s existing new party and George is cross does brighten my morning.


----------



## belboid (Nov 12, 2020)

ffs, he’s joined TUSC.   I’m not sure who’s dumber, him for thinking they’re any kind of vehicle, or them for having him.


----------



## Shechemite (Nov 12, 2020)

bimble said:


> That’s not my cunning plan



Just the cunning plan of those that fund you eh?


----------



## toblerone3 (Nov 17, 2020)

Labour reinstates Jeremy Corbyn after suspension over antisemitism remarks
					

No decision has been made whether to restore the whip to former leader




					www.theguardian.com
				




those who “deny there is a problem are part of the problem … Those who pretend it is all exaggerated or factional are part of the problem.” 

What about those who don't deny that there is a problem but do think it is partially (not all) exaggerated and partially (not all) factional?


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Nov 17, 2020)

toblerone3 said:


> Labour reinstates Jeremy Corbyn after suspension over antisemitism remarks
> 
> 
> No decision has been made whether to restore the whip to former leader
> ...


They're obviously anti Semitic extreme left Trotskyist infiltrators. As is anyone who questions just how a party overwhelmingly anti racist can be branded as Jew baiters by its own right wing and as institutionally anti Semitic.


----------



## andysays (Nov 17, 2020)

toblerone3 said:


> Labour reinstates Jeremy Corbyn after suspension over antisemitism remarks
> 
> 
> No decision has been made whether to restore the whip to former leader
> ...


We'll have none of that nuance here, thank you very much, it's all or nothing with this one, and if you're not part of the solution you're part of the problem.


----------



## Leighsw2 (Nov 17, 2020)

Well it's cheered up my day.


----------



## rummo (Nov 17, 2020)

*Antisemitism: The dividing line*
Stephen Solley is a retired QC and former chair of the Bar Human Rights Committee. He is Jewish, a Labour Party member and a critic of Israel. On 28 January he received a campaign email from Miriam Mirwitch, chair of Young Labour, the party's youth section, and a candidate for the London Assembly.

"I know what it's like to face antisemitism every day," Mirwitch wrote, identifying herself as a national committee member of the Jewish Labour Movement.  "I've had to fight antisemitism both inside and outside the Labour Party," she said.



> 'If they really want to expel the Jewish former Chair of the Bar Human Rights Committee, so be it'
> _- Stephen Solley, retired QC_


Solley recalls: "I got this just a week after Holocaust Remembrance Day. I thought this was the most offensive thing. She lives in modern north-west London. It's absurd. Of course she doesn't face antisemitism every day. It's just whipping up anxiety. I was really upset by it." He replied to Mirwitch with a short, simple email. "The Jewish Labour Movement is, in my opinion, a force for ill and something of a con in that it is destructive of socialism. It is a pro Israel, anti Palestine group. It becomes imperative to vote against you."

Twenty-three minutes later, Mirwitch wrote to Solley's former chambers, accusing him of antisemitism. She also wrote to the Bar Standards Board. Both rejected her accusations. But three days after sending the email, Solley received notification from the Labour Party that he was under investigation for antisemitism, an investigation that appears to be ongoing.

Solley is aware that by speaking out he may have contravened the party's demand that he "keep all information and correspondence relating to this investigation private." His response? "I don’t give a damn. If they really want to expel the Jewish former chair of the Bar Human Rights Committee, so be it." 









						'The wrong sort of Jew': How Labour pursued complaints against elderly Jewish opponents of Israel
					

Labour's investigations into antisemitism raise questions about the nature and definition of what the party is attempting to root out




					www.middleeasteye.net


----------



## 8ball (Nov 17, 2020)

bimble said:


> the wrong kind of anti Zionists.
> View attachment 238491
> (this is not a serious post, just think its interesting that these of all people feel the need to use the euphemism).



Should be clear that the context is very garbled here, as far as I can tell this is a member of the Proud Boys who is forming his own splinter group in disappointment at their lack of overt racism, homophobia and anti-semitism.

The actual Proud Boys being more focused on covert racism, misogyny and Islamophobia ime...

More here.


----------



## Shechemite (Nov 17, 2020)

rummo said:


> *Antisemitism: The dividing line*
> Stephen Solley is a retired QC and former chair of the Bar Human Rights Committee. He is Jewish, a Labour Party member and a critic of Israel. On 28 January he received a campaign email from Miriam Mirwitch, chair of Young Labour, the party's youth section, and a candidate for the London Assembly.
> 
> "I know what it's like to face antisemitism every day," Mirwitch wrote, identifying herself as a national committee member of the Jewish Labour Movement.  "I've had to fight antisemitism both inside and outside the Labour Party," she said.
> ...





MadeInBedlam said:


> You’re weird


----------



## JTG (Nov 17, 2020)

rummo said:


> *Antisemitism: The dividing line*
> Stephen Solley is a retired QC and former chair of the Bar Human Rights Committee. He is Jewish, a Labour Party member and a critic of Israel. On 28 January he received a campaign email from Miriam Mirwitch, chair of Young Labour, the party's youth section, and a candidate for the London Assembly.
> 
> "I know what it's like to face antisemitism every day," Mirwitch wrote, identifying herself as a national committee member of the Jewish Labour Movement.  "I've had to fight antisemitism both inside and outside the Labour Party," she said.
> ...


Yeah that's pretty much the sort of insanity that we're at now


----------



## rummo (Nov 18, 2020)

Good illustration of the Right Sort of Jew/Wrong Sort of Jew paradigm on last night's Newsnight. Kirsty Wark interviewing Jenny Manson and Louise Ellman. I say 'interviewing' but in the case of the former  'arguing with' would be a better description and 'having a conversation with' in the case of the later.

Shameless bias and partisanship on this issue from the BBC, as we have now come to accept.










						BBC Two - Newsnight, 17/11/2020
					

The day's important national and international news stories. With Kirsty Wark.




					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## platinumsage (Nov 18, 2020)

An edifying thread:


----------



## Knotted (Nov 18, 2020)

rummo said:


> Good illustration of the Right Sort of Jew/Wrong Sort of Jew paradigm on last night's Newsnight. Kirsty Wark interviewing Jenny Manson and Louise Ellman. I say 'interviewing' but in the case of the former  'arguing with' would be a better description and 'having a conversation with' in the case of the later.
> 
> Shameless bias and partisanship on this issue from the BBC, as we have now come to accept.
> 
> ...



I thought the "do you support Keir Starmer or not" line of questioning was genuinely disturbing.


----------



## bimble (Nov 18, 2020)

platinumsage said:


> An edifying thread:



This is pretty standard stuff but the whole shitshow of the last couple of years has made it worse without a doubt, a definite increase in the amount of people who feel obliged to spend time on the internet having opinions about jews.


----------



## rummo (Nov 18, 2020)

bimble said:


> This is pretty standard stuff but the whole shitshow of the last couple of years has made it worse without a doubt, a definite increase in the amount of people who feel obliged to spend time on the internet having opinions about jews.




Perhaps if the issue of  anti Semitism hadn't been weaponised and used so spuriously to attack Corbyn then there might not have been so much of this going on.

But it's a good way to attack your opponents, accuse them of being anti Semitic. You put them on the defensive and you assume the high ground.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 18, 2020)

rummo said:


> Perhaps if the issue of  anti Semitism hadn't been weaponised and used so spuriously to attack Corbyn then there might not have been so much of this going on.
> 
> But it's a good way to attack your opponents, accuse them of being anti Semitic. You put them on the defensive and you assume the high ground.


while taking the low road


----------



## Southlondon (Nov 18, 2020)

pseudonarcissus said:


> The mural, in itself, was trivial. It was cumulative. There was the laying of flowers close to terrorist graves, the platform sharing. There was tea with IRÁ folk in the House of Commons, but never photos of him having tea with a rabbi.


I’m not certain he had tea with this rabbi but he certainly seemed to be on really good terms with a lot of his local Jewish community in his constituency


----------



## JTG (Nov 18, 2020)

Southlondon said:


> I’m not certain he had tea with this rabbi but he certainly seemed to be on really good terms with a lot of his local Jewish community in his constituency


He went to that Jewdas seder and a lot of people got very upset because they are left wing Jews and absolutely not the sort of people a Labour leader should be hanging out with


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 18, 2020)

pseudonarcissus said:


> The mural, in itself, was trivial. It was cumulative. There was the laying of flowers close to terrorist graves, the platform sharing. There was tea with IRÁ folk in the House of Commons, but never photos of him having tea with a rabbi.


not sure why you think having tea with martin mcguinness and gerry adams in the palace of westminster is so much worse than the heath government extracting gerry adams from long kesh and flying him and mcguinness (and ivor bell, sean macstiofain, seamus twomey and daithi o conaill) to london and chatting with them at 96 cheyne walk well before they were senior members of sinn fein


----------



## Southlondon (Nov 18, 2020)

JTG said:


> He went to that Jewdas seder and a lot of people got very upset because they are left wing Jews and absolutely not the sort of people a Labour leader should be hanging out with


Same as secular Jews, or any people of Jewish decent who find the idea of supporting a country that’s based around one faith and can’t help itself from breaking international laws and driving people from their homes on an ongoing basis for 70 years aborhent . If you criticise the state of Israel for the inhuman way they treat the Palestinians, then the label of antisemitism will be used to silence and demonise by  the self appointed spokespeople for the entire Jewish community.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 18, 2020)

Southlondon said:


> Same as secular Jews, or any people of Jewish decent who find the idea of supporting a country that’s based around one faith and can’t help itself from breaking international laws and driving people from their homes on an ongoing basis for 70 years aborhent . If you criticise the state of Israel for the inhuman way they treat the Palestinians, then the label of antisemitism will be used to silence and demonise by  the self appointed spokespeople for the entire Jewish community.


and that's your proper chutzpah


----------



## platinumsage (Nov 18, 2020)

Southlondon said:


> I’m not certain he had tea with this rabbi but he certainly seemed to be on really good terms with a lot of his local Jewish community in his constituency



That's Rabbi Pinter, a Labour councillor in Hackney who met with Corbyn numerous times but wasn't exactly happy about antisemitism in the Labour party or the way Corbyn dealt with it. I'm not sure whether they had tea together though.


----------



## Knotted (Nov 18, 2020)

Looking at the broader picture of anti-Semitism in the Labour Party, how is this suspension/whip withdrawal of Jeremy Corbyn going to play in the membership? We know how the right and the left are responding, but how about the centre who would usually prefer a Starmer or a Milliband as a leader? There will be a layer of stolid old Labour loyalists seeing their party under attack and having to jump through arbitrarily high hoops again who will now be more receptive to certain ideas. Let's not forget that a lot of these people are divs who never confronted anti-Semitism as it grew organically at local levels.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Nov 18, 2020)

Knotted said:


> Looking at the broader picture of anti-Semitism in the Labour Party, how is this suspension/whip withdrawal of Jeremy Corbyn going to play in the membership? We know how the right and the left are responding, but how about the centre who would usually prefer a Starmer or a Milliband as a leader? There will be a layer of stolid old Labour loyalists seeing their party under attack and having to jump through arbitrarily high hoops again who will now be more receptive to certain ideas. Let's not forget that a lot of these people are divs who never confronted anti-Semitism as it grew organically at local levels.


It grew so organically and became so widespread that hardly anybody noticed it, apart from right wing elements. It was so widespread that the EHRC report concentrated really heavily on only two cases. In so many localities anti semitism was not confronted because it didn't exist. The report hasn't said which, if any, localities are/were/will be infected by anti semitism. I wonder why not. Maybe because they can't find any actual real evidence.


----------



## JTG (Nov 19, 2020)

An attack here from Robert Jenrick:



Kind of exposes the fact that while Labour will use this as an excuse to wage factional war, the Tories don't care about that and will have a go at the problematic statements of those on the right of Labour such as Steve Reed


----------



## brogdale (Nov 19, 2020)

JTG said:


> An attack here from Robert Jenrick:
> 
> 
> 
> Kind of exposes the fact that while Labour will use this as an excuse to wage factional war, the Tories don't care about that and will have a go at the problematic statements of those on the right of Labour such as Steve Reed



That may well be true, but in Jenrick's case, there appears to be some personal beef that his shadow dared to call out his corrupt dealings with the pronographer, property developer. Reed did use the antisemitic trope of _puppet master, _but I'd imagine that Jenrick sees this as a possible means to deflect attention or dissuade further comment about his dodgy dealings.


----------



## Buddy Bradley (Nov 19, 2020)

I just enjoy the fact that the most generic Tory boy around is named Robert Generic. Reminds me of Basil Exposition from the Austin Powers films.


----------



## JTG (Nov 19, 2020)

brogdale said:


> That may well be true, but in Jenrick's case, there appears to be some personal beef that his shadow dared to call out his corrupt dealings with the pronographer, property developer. Reed did use the antisemitic trope of _puppet master, _but I'd imagine that Jenrick sees this as a possible means to deflect attention or dissuade further comment about his dodgy dealings.


Well yeah, obviously Tories gonna Tory. But the weak spot is right there for them to prod


----------



## brogdale (Nov 19, 2020)

JTG said:


> Well yeah, obviously Tories gonna Tory. But the weak spot is right there for them to prod


Indeed, and that 'weak spot' will be prodded by their opponents any time the LP's internecine wars are felt to be abating or that their polling improves. Tory anti-antisemitism can and will be turned on and off as required.


----------



## Shechemite (Nov 19, 2020)

Not AS related, but it was Steve Reed who pushed through Senis law (recording restraint in MH units) it’s Barbara Keeley, Harriet Harman, and Helen Hayes who are pushing for an end to long term institutionalisation.

what have the SCG done about any of this?


----------



## JTG (Nov 19, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Indeed, and that 'weak spot' will be prodded by their opponents any time the LP's internecine wars are felt to be abating or that their polling improves. Tory anti-antisemitism can and will be turned on and off as required.


Same way every time Labour went ahead in the polls under Corbyn there was an uptick in a-s, IRA etc stories, usually gleefully seized upon by the party right. Riding the tiger not such a wise choice


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 19, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> It grew so organically and became so widespread that hardly anybody noticed it, apart from right wing elements. It was so widespread that the EHRC report concentrated really heavily on only two cases. In so many localities anti semitism was not confronted because it didn't exist. The report hasn't said which, if any, localities are/were/will be infected by anti semitism. I wonder why not. Maybe because they can't find any actual real evidence.


Yeh but it seems if you say that then you're as yourself


----------



## brogdale (Nov 19, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh but it seems if you say that then you're as yourself


The recent history of the Tory weaponisation of anti-semitism could occupy a discrete thread in itself, and maybe we should have embarked on such a thread to distinguish discussion from the really existing anti-semitism within the LP?

My recollection of anti-semitism becoming a more high-profile party political weapon goes back to the waning of the Blair/Brown regime and the (then) opposition's project to discredit the heir to Blair. David Miliband was regarded as potentially too pro-Palestinian and, then Blair's Foreign Secretary, wound up Hague's tory party over their European Parliamentary links to overtly anti-semitic groupings.

Obviously, the ground-work put in place to attack Miliband (D) as the wrong sort of Jew, was 'oven-ready' to be deployed against his 'anti-Israeli' brother.

I don't think it's too conspiraloony to mention the dedicated work of Eric Pickles in post as Cameron's Secretary of State for Communities and local Government (& Minister for Faith) who used his tenure to build through his CfI networking an increasingly effective campaign to deploy anti-semitism against the Miliband opposition.

Obviously the threat of Corbyn's left populism was met with weaponisation that built upon Pickles' work and combined with Mark Regev's tenure as UK ambassador (2016-2020) brought us to where we are today.


----------



## Raheem (Nov 19, 2020)

Kirklees has just had a handful of councillors quit the Labour party (following popular ex-MP Thelma Walker), so Labour has lost its majority.


----------



## belboid (Nov 19, 2020)

Seymour makes various good points on the topic in general in his latest bit.  It's light on what anyone could really have done as an alternative, probably because he doesn't thin k there was really any on offer.


			https://www.patreon.com/posts/paralysis-44072355


----------



## ska invita (Nov 19, 2020)

belboid said:


> It's light on what anyone could really have done as an alternative, probably because he doesn't thin k there was really any on offer.


There were suggestions way back in the mists of time that Corbyn shouldve taken people to court over accusations early on. Impossible to say if that wouldve worked....Id expect it would. Not the best look, but way better than this mess.
He's got a turn the other cheek nature about him though which doesnt work well when theres a pack of wolves out for your blood.

Well he's going to get his court case after all, and surely the Director of Prosecutions is going to be on the losing side.

The NEC letter tonight, signed by a majority who sit on it, is pretty juicy


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 19, 2020)

Time to wince...or not...


----------



## Raheem (Nov 19, 2020)

Rutita1 said:


> Time to wince...or not...



Bit clumsy for a professional wordsmith.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 19, 2020)

Raheem said:


> Bit clumsy for a professional wordsmith.


What do you disagree with?


----------



## JTG (Nov 19, 2020)

Quite astonishing how SKS has backed himself into a corner here. NEC has reinstated JC's membership presumably based on legal advice but the whip has been withheld to placate Hodge and whoever else he feels he has to keep onside. Due process has not been followed and surely he knows it cannot stand in court. Remarkable.


----------



## Raheem (Nov 19, 2020)

Rutita1 said:


> What do you disagree with?


He's giving the (presumably unintentional) impression that, when racism gets noticed within the Labour party, half of them go "oh no, how terrible" and half of them go "no, no, this is fine".

Wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't the impression a lot of bystanders already have, and precisely the impression that Corbyn got suspended for commenting on.


----------



## JTG (Nov 19, 2020)

Raheem said:


> He's giving the (presumably unintentional) impression that, when racism gets noticed within the Labour party, half of them go "oh no, how terrible" and half of them go "no, no, this is fine".
> 
> Wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't the impression a lot of bystanders already have, and precisely the impression that Corbyn got suspended for commenting on.


No, that's his intent


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 19, 2020)

Nah...for me he is making the point that an accusation of racism divides (rightly) the LP but when it comes to the Tory party they close ranks and rarely criticise/fight each other.


----------



## Raheem (Nov 19, 2020)

JTG said:


> No, that's his intent


No, it isn't. Rosen's a steadfast Corbyn supporter. He is not trying to make the point that the party is up to its ears in racism. It's accidental.


----------



## ska invita (Nov 19, 2020)

Rutita1 said:


> Nah...for me he is making the point that an accusation of racism divides (rightly) the LP but when it comes to the Tory party they close ranks and rarely criticise/fight each other.


Echoed in the Richard Seymour piece:
" Anti-Jewish violence has been structurally central to modern reaction, from Burke to the Dreyfus Affair, from segregationists to Nazis, from McCarthyism to Massive Resistance. It has been central to the programme of anticommunism and nationalism. Contrary to the widespread expectations, the appearance of Israel as a racist state hasn't fundamentally altered that equation.

 The recent rise of paranoid nationalism has also produced a global rise in symbolic and physical violence against Jews. Physical attacks, desecrated graves, lone wolf terror. Marching fascists chanting "Jews will not replace us". Trump blaming antisemitic terror on Jews, coddling neo-Nazis. The Tories nudging and winking about "cultural marxism". 

*The Left doesn't have anything like the same structural relationship to antisemitism that the Right does. Where antisemitism flourishes on the Right, it strengthens the Right. Where it appears on the Left, it weakens the Left."*


----------



## JTG (Nov 19, 2020)

Raheem said:


> No, it isn't. Rosen's a steadfast Corbyn supporter. He is not trying to make the point that the party is up to its ears in racism.


I support him and I'm quite happy to make that point. It is tbh


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 19, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Echoed in the Richard Seymour piece:
> 
> 
> *The Left doesn't have anything like the same structural relationship to antisemitism that the Right does. Where antisemitism flourishes on the Right, it strengthens the Right. Where it appears on the Left, it weakens the Left."*



Same thing with Anti-Black racism and Islamaphobia...this stuff is obvious.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 19, 2020)

Raheem said:


> No, it isn't. Rosen's a steadfast Corbyn supporter. He is not trying to make the point that the party is up to its ears in racism. It's accidental.



He's talking about what happens when the 'party' is accused of racism.


----------



## Raheem (Nov 19, 2020)

JTG said:


> I support him and I'm quite happy to make that point. It is tbh


No, it wouldn't make sense. Rosen himself is very clearly on one side of the divide he is talking about. So, if his words are to be taken as you are saying they are intended, he is classing himself as a racist. So that is not his intention.


----------



## Raheem (Nov 19, 2020)

Rutita1 said:


> He's talking about what happens when the 'party' is accused of racism.


Yes, but he has left himself wide open to a different interpretation (the one JTG is making). That's what's clumsy.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 19, 2020)

Raheem said:


> No, it wouldn't make sense. Rosen himself is very clearly on one side of the divide he is talking about. So, if his words are to be taken as you are saying they are intended, he is classing himself as a racist. So that is not his intention.



Eh?  

Explain this to me please


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 19, 2020)

Raheem said:


> Yes, but he has left himself wide open to a different interpretation (the one JTG is making). That's what's clumsy.



What he said is clear and it's not a new idea or analysis about how the LP and TP deal with accusations of bigotry.  It's literally expected from the Tories afterall. It causes an existential crisis and division when leveled at the LP...this is what is happening.


----------



## Raheem (Nov 19, 2020)

Rutita1 said:


> Eh?
> 
> Explain this to me please


The Labour party is, currently and topically, divided. Rosen is clearly on one side of that divide, i.e. the side that doesn't believe Corbyn is being fairly treated. However what he says about it can, and has been, just above, interpreted as meaning the party is divided, broadly, between racists and non-racists. That can't be a correct interpretation, because the racists in that scenario could only be the Corbynites, and it is unlikely that Rosen classes himself as one of the racists. 

However, what Rosen says in his tweet is quite easy to interpret in that way, particularly if someone comes to the tweet not knowing Rosen's politics. So, it could have been better put.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Nov 19, 2020)

Raheem said:


> The Labour party is, currently and topically, divided. Rosen is clearly on one side of that divide, i.e. the side that doesn't believe Corbyn is being fairly treated. However what he says about it can, and has been, just above, interpreted as meaning the party is divided, broadly, between racists and non-racists. That can't be a correct interpretation, because the racists in that scenario could only be the Corbynites, and it is unlikely that Rosen classes himself as one of the racists.
> 
> However, what Rosen says in his tweet is quite easy to interpret in that way, particularly if someone comes to the tweet not knowing Rosen's politics. So, it could have been better put.


But he is recovering from a life threatening illness, so I'm prepared to be somewhat forgiving in this instance.


----------



## Raheem (Nov 19, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> But he is recovering from a life threatening illness, so I'm prepared to be somewhat forgiving in this instance.


Fair comment. I was only really suggesting this should count as a first strike, not an immediate birching.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 19, 2020)

Raheem said:


> He's giving the (presumably unintentional) impression that, when racism gets noticed within the Labour party, half of them go "oh no, how terrible" and half of them go "no, no, this is fine".


He doesn't say or imply 'half' but that basically is what he's saying, yes. And he's contrasting Labour with the Tory party, where such issues don't divide the party, despite their issues wrt racism and bigotry being far more serious and entrenched than those in Labour, which leaves anyone who criticises the tories for racism from within the tory party ostracised, giving the example of Warsi. Basically, the tories are virtually all in the 'no, no, this is fine' camp to the extent that it is the orthodoxy, whereas in Labour it very much isn't.

And he's right.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 19, 2020)

Raheem said:


> The Labour party is, currently and topically, divided. Rosen is clearly on one side of that divide, i.e. the side that doesn't believe Corbyn is being fairly treated. However what he says about it can, and has been, just above, interpreted as meaning the party is divided, broadly, between racists and non-racists. That can't be a correct interpretation, because the racists in that scenario could only be the Corbynites, and it is unlikely that Rosen classes himself as one of the racists.
> 
> However, what Rosen says in his tweet is quite easy to interpret in that way, particularly if someone comes to the tweet not knowing Rosen's politics. So, it could have been better put.


But all that assumes that there is a pre-existing objective 'Platonic' truth of racism. Some people think Corbyn is racist, for instance, while others don't. So it's not just a divide between racists and non-racists. It's far more complicated and contested than that. The debate about what exactly constitutes anti-Semtism wrt criticism of Israel is contested within Labour. It's contested on here in this thread.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 25, 2020)

Who knew that Alexa was Labour?



Spoiler: Tory twitter link


----------



## ska invita (Dec 3, 2020)

Former Momentum chief suspended by Labour over ‘anti-Semitic post’
					

A former national treasurer of Momentum and serving Labour councillor has been suspended by the party after a social media post in which he said there was “no factual basis whatsoever for a Jewish race”.




					www.standard.co.uk
				




" In it, he linked in work by Israeli historian Shlomo Sand and wrote: “The invention of the Jewish people. This is an absolutely ‘must read’ for everyone who wants truth and justice for Palestine/Israel. The essential historical evidence will amaze you — there is no factual basis whatsoever for a Jewish race, nation or homeland, it is all recently invented propaganda called ‘Zionism’.”

---Sand's book is published by Verso and I therefore expect it to be solidly researched. Thoughts? Seems legit to me:




__





						Verso
					

Verso Books is the largest independent, radical publishing house in the English-speaking world.




					www.versobooks.com
				





> The bestselling study of Jewish history
> Exploding the myth that there was a forced Jewish exile in the first century at the hands of the Romans, Israeli historian Shlomo Sand argues that most modern Jews descend from converts, whose native lands were scattered across the Middle East and Eastern Europe. In the process, Sand dismantles the founding myth of the Jewish homeland.
> 
> This new edition, ten years after the book’s first publication in English, includes a new introduction that revisits the controversy the book continues to ignite.
> ...


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 3, 2020)

FFS, it's not _accusations _of racism dividing the left in the symour piece, it's racism in the left. Left-racism. He literally talks about the form that left-racism takes, not accusations of racism. As does Rosen's pathetic echo. Which at least has the virtue of making an effort to look things in the face.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 3, 2020)

butchersapron said:


> FFS, it's not _accusations _of racism dividing the left in the symour piece, it's racism in the left. Left-racism. He literally talks about the form that left-racism takes, not accusations of racism. As does Rosen's pathetic echo. Which at least has the virtue of at least making an effort to look things in the face.


The fundamental problem with the Seymour piece is that it appears predicated upon a hypothetical:



> You're accused of something that is grotesque, *false* and unjust. But, like the best smears, it contains just enough reference to real events that you have to answer it.



The analysis that follows is an account of how that hypothetical might be exploited by opponents.
But, as you say, the LP (specifically) has been divided by really existing left racism *and* the 'accusations' (calling out) and the undoubted political weaponisation of that racism by their opponents.


----------



## Serge Forward (Dec 3, 2020)

> no factual basis whatsoever for a Jewish race


As the concept of race is a social construct (outside of the human race, that is), then the same could be said of any "race". But then I guess that's not the point of such comments really.


----------



## bimble (Dec 3, 2020)

ska invita I liked that book. Found it quite exciting when I read it ages ago. But its central idea (that a lot of jews might be descended from the Khazars (who converted en masse) has been used to prop up all manner of weird stuff. And that endorsement from whoever it is an example of that, its not a book review, and it’s definitely nuts to say the whole idea of ‘the Jewish people’  is a “recently invented propaganda called Zionism”. That’s just very odd.


----------



## rummo (Dec 3, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Former Momentum chief suspended by Labour over ‘anti-Semitic post’
> 
> 
> A former national treasurer of Momentum and serving Labour councillor has been suspended by the party after a social media post in which he said there was “no factual basis whatsoever for a Jewish race”.
> ...




From which I learn

1. the bar for being suspended by the Labour Party for anti Semitism is very, very low. Lower I would suggest than for, say, Islamophobia or any other form of racism. Which essentially is marking out Jewish people for different treatment to others, which is problematic in a whole number of ways.

2. if you read a book which you find surprisingly revelatory in support of your pre existing views, on a subject you have no expertise of, have the common sense to realise that there might be a conflicting view, find out what it is and draw conclusions. Be wary of confirmation bias and rushing to judgement.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 3, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Former Momentum chief suspended by Labour over ‘anti-Semitic post’
> 
> 
> A former national treasurer of Momentum and serving Labour councillor has been suspended by the party after a social media post in which he said there was “no factual basis whatsoever for a Jewish race”.
> ...



There's no 'factual basis' for any ethnic, national or cultural group you care to name. No basis besides lived experience and collective imagination; both of which have extremely factual consequences.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 3, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Former Momentum chief suspended by Labour over ‘anti-Semitic post’
> 
> 
> A former national treasurer of Momentum and serving Labour councillor has been suspended by the party after a social media post in which he said there was “no factual basis whatsoever for a Jewish race”.
> ...


Wonder what would have happened if he'd said there's no factual basis for a white race


----------



## Jay Park (Dec 3, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Wonder what would have happened if he'd said there's no factual basis for a white race



unreal.

Maybe some cretin sabotaging the momentum movement.

I dunno so much about momentum apart from their PR stuff and I know a couple of good guys involved. I also know a few cynical grab-all gobshites involved.


----------



## Flavour (Dec 3, 2020)

Naomi Wimborne-Idrissi suspended


----------



## ska invita (Dec 3, 2020)

Flavour said:


> Naomi Wimborne-Idrissi suspended


Jewsih Chronicle write up - looks like another disgraceful suspension


			https://www.thejc.com/news/uk/labour-suspends-senior-jvl-official-after-deeply-unpleasant-meeting-1.509331
		

Naomi Wimborne-Idrissi, a senior official in the Jewish Voice For Labour group, has been suspended by Labour following a JC report on her conduct in a meeting of Chingford and Woodford Green Labour Party.

The JC understands that Ms Wimborne-Idrissi, who is vice-chair of the East London CLP, and the chair, Gary Lafley, have been informed they are administratively suspended from Sir Keir Starmer’s party pending an investigation.

At Monday’s meeting of the local party, the JVL media officer had backed claims about the “weaponisation” of antisemitism allegations within Labour.

When members of the local Labour Party, including members of the Jewish Labour Movement, remarked that they were uncomfortable with the speeches by Ms Wimborne-Idrissi and the chair Mr Lafley, she wrote: “I’m just horrified to see people saying in the chat that they feel ‘uncomfortable’.

“I feel obliged to say well yeah, I feel uncomfortable that people are saying they’re uncomfortable. What is this? We are in a political party. We have views, some of them very strongly held.”

A further transcript of her speech at the online meeting confirms that she also criticised General Secretary David Evans’ move to protect Jewish members of the party by banning the discussion of pro-Jeremy Corbyn motions and discussion of the EHRC report in meetings, after reminding CLPs that the party had accepted the recommendations in full.

But  in her speech, Ms Wimborne-Idrissi said: “The idea – and I have to mention it – the idea that Jewish people require for their comfort that whole swathes of subjects should not be debated by the membership of this party is insulting to Jewish people.

“And I know there are some Jews in this meeting who will say ‘No No I think it’s wonderful.’ This is a dangerous road. Do we really want us Jewish members to be seen as gatekeepers – as people who prevent others from discussing issues of importance? This is serious stuff, comrades.”

Ms Wimborne-Idrissi also claimed it was allies of the former leader, such as herself, who now felt uncomfortable in the party.

She said: “Yes, I feel uncomfortable. I feel bloody uncomfortable seeing damned good comrades and friends of mine being suspended from this party for doing nothing more than trying to discuss the questions which led to Jeremy Corbyn’s unjust suspension – we know it was unjust because he was readmitted – and then the question of the whip being taken from him which is almost certainly unconstitutional in the party.”

As a leading figure in JVL, Ms Wimborne-Idrissi has regularly spoken out to defend Mr Corbyn over the antisemitism crisis under his leadership.

She provoked anger in the community in February 2019, attacking the decision of the former Labour MP Luciana Berger to quit the party over antisemitism.

Speaking on LBC radio she defended Mr Corbyn over his response to the antisemitic mural in Tower Hamlets, which had been raised by Ms Berger.

Ms Wimborne-Idrissi said: "He thought the artist was being censored unfairly... If people were honest, including Luciana Berger, who dredged this up at the apposite moment to suit her anti-Corbyn agenda."

In a recent video, she claimed she was attacked for campaigning for the Palestinians with allegations she was  “the wrong type of Jew, not a proper Jew” and “a kapo”.

Meanwhile in his own speech at Monday’s meeting, chair Mr Lafley openly attacked the Labour leader Sir Keir Starmer in his speech.

He said: “It is Keir Starmer, not Jeremy Corbyn, who is in breach of party rules. It is Starmer, not Corbyn, who is in breach of the EHRC report, where Ch3 page 27 explicitly defends the rights of party members to question the scale of antisemitism within the Party, based on their experience.

“It is Starmer, not Corbyn, who is in breach of the Human Rights Act 1998. It is Starmer, not Corbyn, who is in breach of the European Convention on Human Rights. And it is Starmer, not Corbyn, who has plunged the party into internecine warfare, when we should be exposing and combatting this vile class-driven, corrupt government, something we should have been doing for 11 months.”

The JC contacted Ms Wimborne-Idrissi and asked her to criticise Mr Lafley’s remarks, but she did not respond.

On Tuesday, Labour members confirmed to the JC that they considered the meeting to have been a “deeply unpleasant environment.”

They criticised the “combative” speeches of both the chair and vice-chair which “opened the floodgates” to further aggressive speeches at the meeting.

An earlier message sent to all CLPs by Labour General Secretary Mr Evans had noted that “it has become clear that motions around this issue (including expressions of solidarity, views around the ongoing process in relation to the Parliamentary whip, and/or the power of the General Secretary or the NEC to issue guidance in relation to discussion of this issue) are providing a flashpoint for the expression of views that undermine the Labour Party’s ability to provide a safe and welcoming space for all members, in particular our Jewish members.

“Therefore all motions which touch on these issues must be ruled out of order.”

On Thursday a Labour spokesperson told the JC: “The Labour Party takes all complaints seriously and they are fully investigated in line with our rules and procedures and any appropriate action is taken.”

The JC contacted Ms Wimborne-Idrissi and Mr Lafley for comment on their suspension.


----------



## rummo (Dec 3, 2020)

Flavour said:


> Naomi Wimborne-Idrissi suspended




Wrong sort of Jew.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 3, 2020)

Flavour said:


> Naomi Wimborne-Idrissi suspended



DDN has reposted this again today...being circulating for a bit already. I am sure it didn't endear her to some.


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 3, 2020)

rummo said:


> Wrong sort of Jew.



Sigh


----------



## cantsin (Dec 3, 2020)

another jewish member suspended :





__





						Moshé Machover: Open Letter on my suspension – Labour against the witch-hunt
					






					www.labouragainstthewitchhunt.org


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Dec 3, 2020)

Jews who don't want the Palestinians colonised and ethnically cleansed are despised by the Zionist and Starmer cliques.


----------



## steveseagull (Dec 3, 2020)

I did not realise the 'New Leadership' had a whole day set aside for rooting out the Jews with the wrong sort of views. Quite amazing. In plain sight as well.


----------



## bellaozzydog (Dec 3, 2020)

Rutita1 said:


> DDN has reposted this again today...being circulating for a bit already. I am sure it didn't endear her to some.




where is Starmer going with this what is the end point

is there anything to argue about in her eloquent 9:40 seconds ?


----------



## ska invita (Dec 3, 2020)

bellaozzydog said:


> where is Starmer going with this what is the end point
> 
> is there anything to argue about in her eloquent 9:40 seconds ?


----------



## two sheds (Dec 4, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Sigh


Sigh


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 4, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Sigh


You sigh, but that is how she characterises her predicament herself. If a person is politically on the socialist left and sees Naomi Wimborne-Idrissi as their enemy, then they're doing something badly wrong.


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 4, 2020)

How should I see people who pally around with the likes of max blumenthal and Craig Murray?


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 4, 2020)

Jews do have politics you know


----------



## ska invita (Dec 4, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> How should I see people who pally around with the likes of max blumenthal and Craig Murray?


is there a particular allegation against her you're making? Id like to hear it explicitly - I hadnt heard of her until the other day - would be useful to know


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 4, 2020)

Her group - JVL


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 4, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> You sigh, but that is how she characterises her predicament herself. If a person is politically on the socialist left and sees Naomi Wimborne-Idrissi as their enemy, then they're doing something badly wrong.


Are you speaking _ex cathedra_ here?


----------



## steveseagull (Dec 4, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Her group - JVL



Wrong sort of Jews?


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 4, 2020)

The Jews that promote Craig Murray and max blumenthal? That advertise products made by slaves? That feature in their ranks the likes of Elleane green?


----------



## bimble (Dec 4, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> The Jews that promote Craig Murray and max blumenthal? That advertise products made by slaves? That feature in their ranks the likes of Elleane green?


Stop it already, the only relevant criteria you need to decide whether any particular Jew is the right kind or wrong kind is do they spend a lot of time, As A Jew, supporting Jeremy on social media or not. That Tony Greenstein fellow is a bit embarrassing sometimes but still, it's not complicated.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 4, 2020)

bimble said:


> Stop it already, the only relevant criteria you need to decide whether any particular Jew is the right kind or wrong kind is do they spend a lot of time, As A Jew, supporting Jeremy on social media or not. That Tony Greenstein fellow is a bit embarrassing sometimes but still, it's not complicated.


With a kippah on as it were.


----------



## steveseagull (Dec 4, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> The Jews that promote Craig Murray and max blumenthal? That advertise products made by slaves? That feature in their ranks the likes of Elleane green?



Yeah, the wrong sort of Jews mate. The bad Jews.


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 4, 2020)

I think it’s bad to promote conspirlaoons and war crimes deniers. And to appear on the show of a Holocaust denier. 

Their Jewishness is neither here nor there


----------



## bimble (Dec 4, 2020)

Trying to think if there's any other group where people feel happy bandying around 'the wrong kind of'. Immigrants maybe? But thats for a different audience.


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 4, 2020)

I went to Ramallah with a mate at the end of last year. Chanukah fell over Christmas (or is the other way round) so was able to join in the rakish Christmas parade, spend Christmas eve and Christmas Day in Bethlehem (we got pissed on Taybeh and got lost trying to find our hotel, which felt seasonal), a day in Jerusalem (wasn’t impressed, felt like Camden) and got to see tel aviv in our way back.

The security people at Ben Gurion weren’t happy. Asked me why I was wesring a kippah. Asked me why I was wearing clothes from ‘his’ culture. Rude fucker


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 4, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Asked me why I was wesring a kippah. Asked me why I was wearing clothes from ‘his’ culture. Rude fucker



After the year I’d had this wasn’t appreciated


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 4, 2020)

My passport went ‘missing’ on the flight over as well, only to turn up at the airport. Mossad bastards


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 4, 2020)

I saw a play called bad jews. It was crap


----------



## bimble (Dec 4, 2020)

Last time i did an israel immigration thing it was on the pedestrian border from taba, uniformed border soldier took my passport & put me in a room alone for 45 minutes just i think to watch me on cctv to see if i looked like i might have a bomb or not. Was quite scary.


----------



## steveseagull (Dec 4, 2020)

There is a lot of lists going on....


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 4, 2020)

steveseagull said:


> There is a lot of lists going on....


i imagine that some people are on more than one


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 4, 2020)

I broke into NHS England (well, their offices in elephant and castle) just before my Levantine tour. Sneaked in past the security guards and made my way to the top floor where I had a very polite conversation with someone called felicity about what I regard as problems in the health service. In my defence I wasn’t particularly well at the time but I imagine that got me on some kind of list


----------



## two sheds (Dec 4, 2020)

How is all of this Corbyn's fault by the way?


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 4, 2020)

I don’t think we can blame Jezza for tedious knobs going ‘ah, the wrong kind of Jew’ with dull regularity


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 4, 2020)

Maybe Madoff could have tried that line in the dock


----------



## ska invita (Dec 4, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> I don’t think we can blame Jezza for tedious knobs going ‘ah, the wrong kind of Jew’ with dull regularity


who is to blame for that do you think?
who is it who has ID politicked a certain political sect as the voice of a group over the voice of another?


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 5, 2020)

Who is to blame? I guess that’s what started off all this antisemtism business


----------



## ska invita (Dec 5, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Who is to blame? I guess that’s what started off all this antisemtism business


no, you've dodged the answer there


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 5, 2020)

Dodged you’re not at all loaded question. Why don’t you tell who you think is to blame for tedious pricks tediously going ‘wrong sort of Jew’ with a self satisfied smile


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 5, 2020)

And as I’ve said, there are plenty of reasons to object to JVL, which have nothing to with them being jews (the wrong sort or otherwise)


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 5, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Dodged you’re not at all loaded question. Why don’t you tell who you think is to blame for tedious pricks tediously going ‘wrong sort of Jew’ with a self satisfied smile


The people calling Jews with certain political opinions 'self-hating Jews', or indeed more recently just calling them 'anti-Semitic'? The fact that this group of people includes an Auschwitz survivor just goes to show how odious and ridiculous that kind of smearing is. Yet you moan about the reaction to it.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 5, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Dodged you’re not at all loaded question. Why don’t you tell who you think is to blame for tedious pricks tediously going ‘wrong sort of Jew’ with a self satisfied smile


smiling? i havent seen a single smile in 2020 when it comes to this. if you think people are enjoying this and point scoring i think you should look again - people are feeling despair at whats going on, broken, humiliated, dismissed, smeared, the list goes on

ive got a terrible memory, but i could've sworn you used to be an anti-ID politics warrior - this all now seems like a pretty clear cut textbook case of ID politics abuse.


----------



## steveseagull (Dec 5, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> And as I’ve said, there are plenty of reasons to object to JVL, which have nothing to with them being jews (the wrong sort or otherwise)




Why do you not tell us what they are then instead of posting lists of Jews you do not like?


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 5, 2020)

steveseagull said:


> Why do you not tell us what they are then instead of posting lists of Jews you do not like?



Er, I have posted what I find objectionable about JVL, and I haven’t ‘posted lists of Jews I don’t like’. 

But you carry on with your paranoia, poor persecuted _wrong sort of jew_.


----------



## rummo (Dec 5, 2020)

'Formerly an anti-Semite was somebody who hated Jews because they were Jews and had a Jewish soul. But nowadays an anti-Semite is somebody who is hated by Jews.' 
Hajo Meyer


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 5, 2020)

ska invita said:


> smiling? i havent seen a single smile in 2020 when it comes to this. if you think people are enjoying this and point scoring i think you should look again - people are feeling despair at whats going on, broken, humiliated, dismissed, smeared, the list goes on
> 
> ive got a terrible memory, but i could've sworn you used to be an anti-ID politics warrior - this all now seems like a pretty clear cut textbook case of ID politics abuse.



Right, so you refer to the JVLers identity to complain about their treatment, I refer to their politics, and I’m the own with the ‘clear cut case of ID politics abuse’


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 5, 2020)

Bloody Jews eh rummo


----------



## bimble (Dec 5, 2020)

rummo said:


> 'Formerly an anti-Semite was somebody who hated Jews because they were Jews and had a Jewish soul. But nowadays an anti-Semite is somebody who is hated by Jews.'
> Hajo Meyer


That’s just ridiculous, whoever said it, don’t you think?


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 5, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> The people calling Jews with certain political opinions 'self-hating Jews', or indeed more recently just calling them 'anti-Semitic'? The fact that this group of people includes an Auschwitz survivor just goes to show how odious and ridiculous that kind of smearing is. Yet you moan about the reaction to it.



How many auschwitz survivors are going ‘wrong sort of Jew’ twice an hour every hour on this thread?


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 5, 2020)

bimble said:


> don’t you think?



He doesn’t.


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 5, 2020)

Careful rummo, you’ll end up on their lists


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 5, 2020)

You’ll be smeared, broken


----------



## bimble (Dec 5, 2020)

Not anything to do with the Labour Party at all but just a thing I was reading about recently & found interesting; the person this is about
(Bobby Fischer the world chess champion ) was Jewish by descent. It definitely an outlier but just, interesting. This is not me trying to make a point about anyone else by the way, just a bit of weird trivia.


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 5, 2020)

Ah reminds me, forgot to reply



ska invita said:


> feeling despair at whats going on, broken, humiliated, dismissed, smeared, the list goes on




Good 

Also, what is it with lists?


----------



## two sheds (Dec 5, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> How many auschwitz survivors are going ‘wrong sort of Jew’ twice an hour every hour on this thread?



You're _always _exaggerating. 

And actually you're the poster who's been mainly talking about the 'wrong sort of Jew' over the last page or so.


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 5, 2020)

two sheds said:


> You're _always _exaggerating.



_Dramatically overstating_


----------



## two sheds (Dec 5, 2020)




----------



## Shechemite (Dec 5, 2020)

Good man


----------



## rummo (Dec 5, 2020)

bimble said:


> That’s just ridiculous, whoever said it, don’t you think?




In context it makes a good point. Meyer was probably tired of being called an anti Semite.


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 5, 2020)

bimble said:


> Not anything to do with the Labour Party at all but just a thing I was reading about recently & found interesting; the person this is aboutView attachment 241864
> (Bobby Fischer the world chess champion ) was Jewish by descent. It definitely an outlier but just, interesting. This is not me trying to make a point about anyone else by the way, just a bit of weird trivia.



Maybe he couldn’t handle losing to a girl a la queens gambit


----------



## bimble (Dec 5, 2020)

rummo said:


> In context it makes a good point. Meyer was probably tired of being called an anti Semite.


What is the good point you think it makes. It’s just silly, sorry. I think he’s the one who got a lot of hate for drawing parallels of some kind between Israeli state actions and the nazis, and fwiw I do think that should be allowed, making it an offence to do Godwin’s law in this one area is wrong, imo.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 5, 2020)

bimble said:


> What is the good point you think it makes. It’s just silly, sorry. I think he’s the one who got a lot of hate for drawing parallels of some kind between Israeli state actions and the nazis, and fwiw I do think that should be allowed, making it an offence to do Godwin’s law in this one area is wrong, imo.



Fair point. I'd try to resist that one but I was called an antisemite for drawing parallels with South Africa when I'd used no inflammatory language. That's a difficulty though, you'd be called antisemitic for that and would be expelled from the Labour party.


----------



## rummo (Dec 5, 2020)

bimble said:


> What is the good point you think it makes. It’s just silly, sorry. I think he’s the one who got a lot of hate for drawing parallels of some kind between Israeli state actions and the nazis, and fwiw I do think that should be allowed, making it an offence to do Godwin’s law in this one area is wrong, imo.




The good point it makes is this.

The first sentence makes it clear what anti Semitism actually is.

The second sentence shows how the concept of anti Semitism has been weaponised and the meaning corrupted for political ends.

For instance, Stephen Solley QC has been accused of anti Semitism. He's not anti Semitic. No one believes he's anti Semitic. His accuser surely doesn't truly believe he's anti Semitic. So why has he been accused of anti Semitism? Maybe you could explain why. Maybe you could say whether you think he's an anti Semite.


----------



## bimble (Dec 5, 2020)

rummo you carry on. I've got other stuff to do today & if you think the definition of an antisemite is  "someone who is hated by Jews"  i don't think me looking up a bloke called steve is going to be of much help.


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 5, 2020)

rummo said:


> 'Formerly an anti-Semite was somebody who hated Jews because they were Jews and had a Jewish soul. But nowadays an anti-Semite is somebody who is hated by Jews.'
> Hajo Meyer


Oh, come on. Meyer said that in particular circumstances.


----------



## rummo (Dec 5, 2020)

bimble said:


> rummo you carry on. I've got other stuff to do today & if you think the definition of an antisemite is  "someone who is hated by Jews"  i don't think me looking up a bloke called steve is going to be of much help.




Well it's a better and more accurate  definition than one which allows someone like Stephen Solley to be described as anti Semitic.


----------



## rummo (Dec 5, 2020)

danny la rouge said:


> Oh, come on. Meyer said that in particular circumstances.




Yes he did. He said it in a context. As I've already said.

But as I've also said it's a more accurate description of the essence of anti Semitism than one which allows Stephen Solley to be accused of being an anti Semite.


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 5, 2020)

rummo said:


> Well it's a better and more accurate  definition than one which allows someone like Stephen Solley to be described as anti Semitic.









__





						Our Story - A Family Run Business
					

We're proud to be a family run business with four generations of experience on the farm & are now the South East’s largest independent ice cream producer.



					www.solleysicecream.co.uk


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 5, 2020)

rummo said:


> Yes he did. He said it in a context. As I've already said.
> 
> But as I've also said it's a more accurate description of the essence of anti Semitism than one which allows Stephen Solley to be accused of being an anti Semite.


Yeah, I don’t know who that is.  Not really bothered about finding out either.  

But I’m assuming he’s a critic of Israeli state policy and actions. Good, so he should be. And there is a point to be made that those critics and that criticism are indeed deliberately conflated with anti-semitism by those who wish to do that.

There is a danger in using quotes like the one you use, though.  And that is that if you don’t each time clarify the context you run the risk of implying that All Jews are guilty of this conflation and that Antisemitism is no longer a valid concern. “Yeah, that’s not a thing. It’s just the way supporters of the Israeli state deflect criticism”.

And the thing with that is that actually on the left, too often criticism of the Israeli state does bleed into antisemitism. I’ve been around left wing activism for 40 years now, and I’ve seen it again and again. And I’ve seen well meaning activists innocently pick up antisemitic tropes.

It does not help anyone to pretend that doesn’t happen. It does. And if it didn’t it would be far easier for Labour to have extracted itself from the faction driven mess it got its self into.

I don’t believe in the parliamentary road to socialism.  I don’t believe the Labour Party will ever be a vehicle for the working class to hold the levers of power.  So I’m bored with their inept splashing around in various gutters taking up so much energy and focus.

But ffs, even with the chicken coup mark II stirring this all up again, the way out of this for the Labour “left” is to have some fucking clarity and honesty.  And a extract itself from the “internationalist”, statist, my-enemy’s-enemy-is-my-friend mire it’s been playing in.


----------



## rummo (Dec 5, 2020)

'There is a danger in using quotes like the one you use, though. And that is that if you don’t each time clarify the context you run the risk of implying that All Jews are guilty of this conflation and that Antisemitism is no longer a valid concern. “Yeah, that’s not a thing. It’s just the way supporters of the Israeli state deflect criticism”.'

###

Agreed. Though posting the quote on page 146 or whatever on a thread entitled Labour & Anti Semitism I think I'm entitled to assume that those being engaged have some understanding of the context and background (though I'll admit that it isn't always evident) so the danger is probably vanishingly small.

I've been in and around far left politics longer than you and I've seldom seen any conflation between anti Zionism and anti Semitism and what I have seen of it has been from the inexperienced and confused still finding their way.

'The faction driven mess' that you mention didn't just happen though. It was instigated and driven by those opposed to Corbyn and what he represents and the weaponisaton of anti Semitism for factional reasons lies at their door.


----------



## killer b (Dec 5, 2020)

rummo said:


> I've been in and around far left politics longer than you and I've seldom seen any conflation between anti Zionism and anti Semitism and what I have seen of it has been from the inexperienced and confused still finding their way.


yeah, you almost never see that.


rummo said:


> That border seems to be getting pushed further and further every day, more and more territory being annexed and occupied.
> 
> It's almost like a metaphor.


----------



## bimble (Dec 5, 2020)

I was hoping rummo was young. If he’s so old that he’s even older than danny I think there’s no point even trying tbh.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 5, 2020)

_Bigotry_ is bad but ageism is fine? 

Not the first time being older has been used to denigrate or as some kind of 'handicap' on this thread.


----------



## killer b (Dec 5, 2020)

bimble said:


> I think there’s no point even trying tbh.


I'm wondering about this. We've been having this same argument for 5 years, longer, and we've still not got past the point of 'please recognise that there is a problem'. How long do we have to keep explaining the same thing - as Danny has done with exceptional clarity just up there (and not for the first time) - only for it to be ignored, explained away, talked past. I've no idea where we go from here.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 5, 2020)

Is anyone saying there is/was no problem at all? I thought we were arguing about the scale of it.


----------



## killer b (Dec 5, 2020)

What I'd like to be talking about it how to combat it tbh, not how big the problem is.


----------



## bimble (Dec 5, 2020)

I feel like there is much more of a point in real life, actual conversations with faces can make people have new thoughts. Like my driving instructor a while back, who in the end said he'd not be going around telling everyone about the rothschilds anymore cos he didn't realise jews could be just normal people, hadn't met one before. On here, on the internet, or any written format, i don't know tbh.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 5, 2020)

I'd be happy with talking about how to prevent it too, but then your previous post was:



killer b said:


> I'm wondering about this. We've been having this same argument for 5 years, longer, and we've still not got past the point of 'please recognise that there is a problem'. How long do we have to keep explaining the same thing - as Danny has done with exceptional clarity just up there (and not for the first time) - only for it to be ignored, explained away, talked past. I've no idea where we go from here.



i.e. saying that posters don't recognize that there's even a problem, which isn't true (as far as I'm aware).

Ok from now on lets concentrate on how we combat it.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 5, 2020)

killer b said:


> What I'd like to be talking about it how to combat it tbh, not how big the problem is.



In some ways you can't do one without the other IMO. I think people are desperate to understand the scale of the problem and to put an end to the recognisable exaggerations to be able to combat it.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 5, 2020)

In one way the pure focus of the thread being on the labour party prevents talking about it without suggesting that it's purely a problem within the labour party. The discussion would be better in a general thread on combatting antisemitism.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Dec 5, 2020)

I've been in and around left politics for yonks too and have never come across anti-semitism from fellow lefty politicos during that time. The exact opposite, racism of any kind has (nearly) always been condemned. I have come across variants of anti-semitism from the far right, from conservatives, from non political people and from lefty/hippie types who are not politically active. So that either tells us that people like me are liars, inattentive, naive or some such, or that our individual experiences are actually real and valid. That experience and perception of anti semitism are not the same everywhere at all times. Perhaps some parts of the country or some sectors of the population are more prone to to prejudice or less attuned to perceived insult. The same may well be true for other groups. When I was growing up in London I occasionally came across anti Irish sentiment, but I found that more prevalent when I was briefly up in Geordie land in the 1970's. I encountered anti Welsh sentiment for the first time in Bristol in the 1990's, which I wasn't expecting at all. Nowadays everyone seems to love the Irish, but again I'm sure others may see things differently.
Where does that leave us? Our understanding of the scale of the problem of any kind of racism is maybe much more subjective than we realise?


----------



## bimble (Dec 5, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> I've been in and around left politics for yonks too and have never come across anti-semitism from fellow lefty politicos during that time.
> 
> I have come across variants of anti-semitism from .. lefty/hippie types who are not politically active.


So is it being a 'lefty politico' rather than just a 'lefty type' that's the key? How odd.
Do people stop being antisemites by getting more politically active or do those lefty types who have antisemitic tendencies just not get involved in whatever you class as politics.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 5, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> I encountered anti Welsh sentiment for the first time in Bristol in the 1990's, which I wasn't expecting at all.



Really? Not you seeing it, but you not realising it exists quite strongly in bristol/n somerset? From shitty tired jokes to actual physical attacks. Always been a thing.


----------



## tim (Dec 5, 2020)

Rutita1 said:


> _Bigotry_ is bad but ageism is fine?
> 
> Not the first time being older has been used to denigrate or as some kind of 'handicap' on this thread.




Who's being ageist? danny la rouge who is around my age has made frequent comments about his advanced/advancing age elsewhere. rummo, who I suspect is tin-eared as well as old, boasts about decades of activism, exceeding even the those of Danny, free from the taint of anti-Semitic utterances.

I also suspect that bimble is no spring-chicken.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Dec 5, 2020)

butchersapron said:


> Really? Not you seeing it, but you not realising it exists quite strongly in bristol/n somerset? From shitty tired jokes to actual physical attacks. Always been a thing.


No, I didn't realise it. I grew up in South London. Not next door to Wales. That proximity makes a big difference.


----------



## Plumdaff (Dec 5, 2020)

I have been around lefty politics for years, and I have seen anti semitism, running the whole gamut from clumsy and muddled speech and thinking to the rabidly racist variety. For that reason for much of the last few years I was firmly convinced that the main problem was that the left was denying the extent of the problem and needed to engage in massive self reflection and serious efforts to identify, educate or expel from the Labour Party and other left forums.

The thing is, I think largely that's what happened. Bar one voice on here no one is arguing there's no problem or that it's not serious. But the answer comes, It isn't enough. Within Labour flawed but serious efforts were made, not enough. EHRC report, not enough. I'm not in the party but have friends and a partner involved and I know what they said and did. I spent time arguing with them to do more, I started from the perspective that Labour hadn't done enough. Then the Labour leaks reports came out. Then the EHRC report came out. 

I now, honestly, think I was naive. I now believe no effort to overcome antisemitism will be enough to satisfy a core extreme centrist wing of the party and Establishment (I don't believe anyone here meets that description). I do believe good faith anti racist efforts are being exploited by an effort to eradicate left politics from the discourse. Not being in Labour/the parliamentary left isn't going to be enough to spare anyone from this.

I think the problem is "there's a problem, and it's being polarised and exaggerated for political ends" isn't the same as "there's no problem". I think "there's a problem and we need to combat it and also think carefully about how to combat the exaggeration and polarisation" isn't the same as "let's do nothing, it's fine". But I feel maybe that's what's being heard by people that (in some, probably many) cases we'd otherwise largely agree on many things.  And at this point I'd like any conversation about where to go to try to square that circle, lessen that polarisation, because I have no clue how to do it and it's fucking depressing.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Dec 5, 2020)

bimble said:


> So is it being a 'lefty politico' rather than just a 'lefty type' that's the key? How odd.
> Do people stop being antisemites by getting more politically active or do those lefty types who have antisemitic tendencies just not get involved in whatever you class as politics.


Thanks for forensically analysing my post so helpfully. What I was implying, rightly or wrongly, was that the more political you are the less likely you are to fall for e.g. 9/11 conspiracy theories involving Jews and/or Israel. Maybe that's because activists are more likely to read more, acquire more historical and political knowledge and hopefully some understanding. Whereas those who just have opinions and vote every 5 years are perhaps more likely to fall for any old crack.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 5, 2020)

tim said:


> Who's being ageist? danny la rouge who is around my age has made frequent comments about his advanced/advancing age elsewhere. rummo, who I suspect is tin-eared as well as old, boasts about decades of activism, exceeding even the those of Danny, free from the taint of anti-Semitic utterances.
> 
> I also suspect that bimble is no spring-chicken.



The idea that someone is too old to 'learn' is a petty ageist denigration. It's been said more that once on this thread. That do you?


----------



## ska invita (Dec 5, 2020)

killer b said:


> What I'd like to be talking about it how to combat it tbh


Here's a start:
1. Do the exact opposite of what Starmer is doing, which has the additional side effect of meaning some people can excuse this as solely a political witchhunt and ignore/sideline antisemitism as an issue
2. Follow the EHRC report, which against leads back to #1 of not making up the rules like a tinpot dictator


----------



## rummo (Dec 5, 2020)

I cut my political teeth in the International Socialists, an organisation founded, and pretty much run, by a stateless, anti Zionist, Palestinian Jew who had lost family in the Holocaust. I flatter myself that in that milieu  I managed to grasp the difference between anti Semitism and opposition to Zionism  relatively quickly. But thanks for all the guidance anyway. I'm sure it's well intentioned.

The issue isn't whether there is anti Semitism in the Labour Party. The issue is the extent of it. 

Is it so extensive that a Corbyn led government would have represented  'an existential threat to Jewish life in this country'? 

Or is the level of anti Semitism in the Labour Party  lower than in society at large or in other political parties? In which case, why the focus on the Labour Party? What's the agenda?


----------



## killer b (Dec 5, 2020)

It's a pretty binary choice you've given us there Rummo. As you know, it's neither of those things.


----------



## belboid (Dec 5, 2020)

rummo said:


> In which case, why the focus on the Labour Party?


I dunno, but I reckon Labour supposedly being the party that most strongly opposes racism and had brought in the key anti-discrimination laws into being, might have _something _to do with it. 

And if you were in the IS all that time, you will often have come across arguments about the 'jewish lobby' over the years, or the 'Israeli lobby' if they were a little more sussed.  I can point you to umpteen articles on it, why would Harman have bothered if it wasn't a thing?


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 5, 2020)

Rutita1 said:


> _Bigotry_ is bad but ageism is fine?
> 
> Not the first time being older has been used to denigrate or as some kind of 'handicap' on this thread.


I brought up my own age. I often do. These are all my own teeth.


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 5, 2020)

I’m not sure I’m convinced by the “well I’ve never seen it” brigade. I wonder whether you’ve never seen it or never noticed it.


----------



## killer b (Dec 5, 2020)

danny la rouge said:


> I’m not sure I’m convinced by the “well I’ve never seen it” brigade. I wonder whether you’ve never seen it or never noticed it.


Not even that, it's denial not ignorance. And such long term denial, a refusal to even consider what's right there in front of you, for years on end... what can you call that?


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 5, 2020)

killer b said:


> Not even that, it's denial not ignorance. And such long term denial, a refusal to even consider what's right there in front of you, for years on end... what can you call that?


Agreed. Don’t _want_ to notice it.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Dec 5, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Here's a start:
> 1. Do the exact opposite of what Starmer is doing, which has the additional side effect of meaning some people can excuse this as solely a political witchhunt and ignore/sideline antisemitism as an issue
> 2. Follow the EHRC report, which against leads back to #1 of not making up the rules like a tinpot dictator


People can excuse this as a political witch-hunt because that’s the line that Corbyn has used. That’s the problem.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 5, 2020)

danny la rouge said:


> I brought up my own age. I often do. These are all my own teeth.


No one has suggested you can't learn because of your age or that no one should bother with trying to have this conversation with you because of your age like they have about Corbyn and rummo though. So my post wasn't about you.


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 5, 2020)

Rutita1 said:


> No one has suggested you can't learn because of your age or that no one should bother with trying to have this conversation with you because of your age like they have about Corbyn and rummo though. So my post wasn't about you.


 I know, but it was me who introduced the age bantz, so I was just owning up to that.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Dec 5, 2020)

killer b said:


> Not even that, it's denial not ignorance. And such long term denial, a refusal to even consider what's right there in front of you, for years on end... what can you call that?





danny la rouge said:


> Agreed. Don’t _want_ to notice it.


So if anyone disagrees with you on this issue they might as well shut up shop and go home. Because they are obviously acting in bad faith. I suspect they are probably tankies, as well, although you haven't said so yet. There, I've saved you the bother.


----------



## killer b (Dec 5, 2020)

More likely to be trots tbf


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 5, 2020)

rummo said:


> In which case, why the focus on the Labour Party? What's the agenda?



Honestly, I think it's because bigotry in all forms is much more expected from the Right and because of that accepted as the way it is/they are. It isn't expected of and accepted of the Left, quite the opposite. The acknowledgement that it exists has rightly created angst & an existential crisis. 

That it's existence within the left is given more focus and scrutiny is in some ways a different conversation.


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 5, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> So if anyone disagrees with you on this issue they might as well shut up shop and go home. Because they are obviously acting in bad faith. I suspect they are probably tankies, as well, although you haven't said so yet. There, I've saved you the bother.


I don’t know where you’ve been all these decades, but if you haven’t seen any antisemitism on the left, you must have been moving in a very virtuous milieu!  Maybe you have been.  But it’s hard to imagine how you avoided it during Gulf War 1 or the STWC during Gulf War 2, for example.


----------



## killer b (Dec 5, 2020)

I don't think many people are arguing in bad faith at all, fwiw. If only - that would make it much easier. Denial isn't arguing in bad faith.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Dec 5, 2020)

killer b said:


> More likely to be trots tbf


I was going to say that, but decided against.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 5, 2020)

sleaterkinney said:


> People can excuse this as a political witch-hunt because that’s the line that Corbyn has used. That’s the problem.



I think people would like the actual 'witch hunt' to stop so the seriousness of antisemitism on the Left can be dealt with.


----------



## killer b (Dec 5, 2020)

Rutita1 said:


> I think people would like the actual 'witch hunt' to stop so the seriousness of antisemitism on the Left can be dealt with.


It's not going to stop, so it needs to be dealt with whilst under heavy enemy fire. I appreciate this makes it much more difficult.


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 5, 2020)

Rutita1 said:


> I think people would like the actual 'witch hunt' to stop so the seriousness of antisemitism on the Left can be dealt with.


Yes, but KillerB puts it well: it won’t, so we need to deal with that.


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 5, 2020)

When I say “we”, I mean of course Trots and Tankies.


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 5, 2020)

danny la rouge said:


> When I say “we”, I mean of course Trots and Tankies.



dinosaurs!


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 5, 2020)

A couple of thoughts on the ‘how to move forward whilst under enemy fire’ (which I accept you are):

1 having a different relationship to geopolitics, not going for the simple anti-imperialist analysis
2 ruthless shunning of the loons (KAM, Williamson etc)
3) reassert class as the central conflict in society, face down the ‘racism is whiteness’ crowd

on the third point I thought this articulates well my own thoughts on the ‘race as structure’ idea









						The dangerous logic of anti-racism
					

If racism is about prejudice and power, where does that leave high-achieving minorities?




					unherd.com


----------



## rummo (Dec 5, 2020)

Does anyone on here agree with the claim that a Corbyn led government would have posed an existential threat to Jewish life in this country?

Does anyone on here believe that those who made such a claim were honestly expressing their genuinely held opinions?


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 5, 2020)

rummo said:


> Does anyone on here agree with the claim that a Corbyn led government would have posed an existential threat to Jewish life in this country?
> 
> Does anyone on here believe that those who made such a claim were honestly expressing their genuinely held opinions?


You’re going round in circles. Pick a direction and stop making yourself dizzy.


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 5, 2020)

rummo said:


> Does anyone on here agree with the claim that a Corbyn led government would have posed an existential threat to Jewish life in this country?
> 
> Does anyone on here believe that those who made such a claim were honestly expressing their genuinely held opinions?



i think more were concerned about the power a Corbyn government might give to the likes of skwakbox/canary etc and to the army of zombie nutters who followed him 

Other Jews I spoke to were concerned about what would happen (this was before covid) if/when brexit went tits up. They didn’t fancy being the group to be scapegoated


----------



## killer b (Dec 5, 2020)

I know jews who genuinely thought Corbyn was an existential threat. I think they were wrong, and in some cases misled, but they weren't in bad faith.


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 5, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> A couple of thoughts on the ‘how to move forward whilst under enemy fire’ (which I accept you are):
> 
> 1 having a different relationship to geopolitics, not going for the simple anti-imperialist analysis
> 2 ruthless shunning of the loons (KAM, Williamson etc)
> ...



on the subject of loons, mental health politics is pretty much a three way fight between anti-imperialists, anti-vaxxers and the abolish white-cis-hetero-normativity people (the anti-imperialists have taken a back seat since the 2019 GE obvs). They’re all wankers


----------



## steveseagull (Dec 5, 2020)

Antisemitism is way worse now than it was under Corbyn. There are literally Jews being purged from the party for discussing... antisemitism... in plain sight. 

All those Blairites spent the last five years queuing up at TV news channels have absolutely nothing to say about it. 

This party is an absolute danger.


----------



## bimble (Dec 5, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> The dangerous logic of anti-racism
> 
> 
> If racism is about prejudice and power, where does that leave high-achieving minorities?
> ...


This is really good.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Dec 5, 2020)

rummo said:


> Does anyone on here agree with the claim that a Corbyn led government would have posed an existential threat to Jewish life in this country?
> 
> Does anyone on here believe that those who made such a claim were honestly expressing their genuinely held opinions?


No and maybe. The maybe refers to people who believed the claims, but wrongly. During lockdown I got in touch with a bunch of mates from 45 years ago, whom I hadn't seen in all that time. One of them voted Green in the last election because he couldn't bring himself to vote for anti Semitic Labour. When pressed by a Labour member to give an example of antisemitism in the party or an antisemitic pronouncement by JC he couldn't think of one. So genuinely held belief but nothing to back it up.


----------



## killer b (Dec 5, 2020)

sounds like a delightful reunion.


----------



## rummo (Dec 5, 2020)

danny la rouge said:


> You’re going round in circles. Pick a direction and stop making yourself dizzy.




I'm merely trying to gauge the bona fides of posters, or at least the extent to which they are connected to external reality.

The existential threat thing was complete bollocks and those who made it were being dishonest and using fears about actual anti Semitism to further their own  political agenda.

Likewise I think the depiction of Stephen Solley QC as an anti Semite is complete bollocks and is being done for the same reason.

It seems you either reject, or chose to ignore, is that those driving the narrative that Labour has a serious problem with anti Semitism are dishonest and disingenuous.

That has to be the starting point.


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 5, 2020)

rummo said:


> It seems you either reject, or chose to ignore,


Me or “one”?


----------



## Serge Forward (Dec 5, 2020)

Who is this Stephen Solley of which you speak? You keep mentioning him but no one wants to look him up.

The Corbyn government is an "existential threat" was obvious bollocks but those who claim to have never seen any anti-semitism on the left are either in denial or have drunk the "anti-imperialism of fools" Kool Aid.

Oh, and fuck the Labour Party


----------



## two sheds (Dec 5, 2020)

Serge Forward said:


> Who is this Stephen Solley of which you speak? You keep mentioning him but no one wants to look him up.



I looked him up


----------



## Raheem (Dec 5, 2020)

Kentish ice-cream magnate.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 5, 2020)

Ice cream isn't magnatic


----------



## Raheem (Dec 5, 2020)

It attracts children.


----------



## Serge Forward (Dec 5, 2020)

Slow children.


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 5, 2020)

two sheds said:


> I looked him up


I just did too. Didn’t learn much. Retired QC nobody’s heard of.


----------



## rummo (Dec 5, 2020)

Stephen Solley is a retired QC and former chair of the Bar Human Rights Committee. He is Jewish, a Labour Party member and a critic of Israel. On 28 January he received a campaign email from Miriam Mirwitch, chair of Young Labour, the party's youth section, and a candidate for the London Assembly.

"I know what it's like to face antisemitism every day," Mirwitch wrote, identifying herself as a national committee member of the Jewish Labour Movement.  "I've had to fight antisemitism both inside and outside the Labour Party," she said.



> 'If they really want to expel the Jewish former Chair of the Bar Human Rights Committee, so be it'
> _- Stephen Solley, retired QC_


Solley recalls: "I got this just a week after Holocaust Remembrance Day. I thought this was the most offensive thing. She lives in modern north-west London. It's absurd. Of course she doesn't face antisemitism every day. It's just whipping up anxiety. I was really upset by it." He replied to Mirwitch with a short, simple email. "The Jewish Labour Movement is, in my opinion, a force for ill and something of a con in that it is destructive of socialism. It is a pro Israel, anti Palestine group. It becomes imperative to vote against you."

Twenty-three minutes later, Mirwitch wrote to Solley's former chambers, accusing him of antisemitism. She also wrote to the Bar Standards Board. Both rejected her accusations. But three days after sending the email, Solley received notification from the Labour Party that he was under investigation for antisemitism, an investigation that appears to be ongoing.

Solley is aware that by speaking out he may have contravened the party's demand that he "keep all information and correspondence relating to this investigation private." His response? "I don’t give a damn. If they really want to expel the Jewish former chair of the Bar Human Rights Committee, so be it."









						'The wrong sort of Jew': How Labour pursued complaints against elderly Jewish opponents of Israel
					

Labour's investigations into antisemitism raise questions about the nature and definition of what the party is attempting to root out




					www.middleeasteye.net


----------



## rummo (Dec 5, 2020)

danny la rouge said:


> I just did too. Didn’t learn much. Retired QC nobody’s heard of.




*“It is impossible for a man to learn what he thinks he already knows.”*

― Epictetus


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 5, 2020)

“Close your mouth please, Michael. We are not a codfish.” – Mary Poppins


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Dec 5, 2020)

killer b said:


> sounds like a delightful reunion.


It has been great, actually. We've mainly talked about other matters.


----------



## Raheem (Dec 5, 2020)

Serge Forward said:


> Slow children.


They're not slow once they hear Greensleeves wafting across the estate. That Stephen Solley has a lot to answer for.


----------



## killer b (Dec 5, 2020)

While the name wasn't familiar, I'm depressed to say that I am aware of this particular case, of which we only have Mr Solley (QC)'s version of events. 

FWIW I'm absolutely certain that Miriam Mirwich, a relatively high profile female Jewish Labour Party officer, recieves daily antisemitic abuse of the most lurid type.


----------



## rummo (Dec 5, 2020)

killer b said:


> While the name wasn't familiar, I'm depressed to say that I am aware of this particular case, of which we only have Mr Solley (QC)'s version of events.
> 
> FWIW I'm absolutely certain that Miriam Mirwich, a relatively high profile female Jewish Labour Party officer, recieves daily antisemitic abuse of the most lurid type.




And I'm absolutely certain that Solley is not an anti Semite.

And I'm absolutely certain that Mirwich knows perfectly well that Solley is not an anti Semite.

Which makes me wonder how someone can feel so entitled, so empowered and so emboldened, as to think that it was appropriate to accuse him of being an anti Semite not just to the Labour Party, but also to the Bar Council and his former Chambers.


----------



## killer b (Dec 5, 2020)

rummo said:


> And I'm absolutely certain that Solley is not an anti Semite.


are you Stephen Solley QC?


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 5, 2020)

Raheem said:


> They're not slow once they hear Greensleeves wafting across the estate. That Stephen Solley has a lot to answer for.


There’s an ice cream van outside my flat right now. I don’t know the tune but it’s lots of arpeggios.


----------



## killer b (Dec 5, 2020)

My local icecream van plays the theme from _The Third Man._ It's pretty sinister tbh


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 5, 2020)

killer b said:


> My local icecream van plays the theme from _The Third Man._ It's pretty sinister tbh


Ooh, cool. Like it.

Does it sell cuckoo clocks?


----------



## bimble (Dec 5, 2020)

rummo said:


> I'm absolutely certain that Mirwich knows perfectly well that Solley is not an anti Semite.
> 
> Which makes me wonder how someone can feel so entitled, so empowered and so emboldened, as to think that it was appropriate to accuse him of being an anti Semite not just to the Labour Party, but also to the Bar Council and his former Chambers.



i had a look at her Twitter and maybe this explains her brazenness


----------



## killer b (Dec 5, 2020)

danny la rouge said:


> Ooh, cool. Like it.
> 
> Does it sell cuckoo clocks?


Heroin, I've always assumed.


----------



## bimble (Dec 5, 2020)

Ice cream vans go all year in Scotland?!
Is there anyone buying in December ? 
I miss that sound, used to be one on my street in brixton, yankee doodle. But he'd park up and turn the music off without letting it finish the tune.


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 5, 2020)

bimble said:


> Ice cream vans go all year in Scotland?!
> Is there anyone buying in December ?
> I miss that sound, used to be one on my street in brixton, yankee doodle. But he'd park up and turn the music off without letting it finish the tune.


Aye, but like killerb I suspect their best seller isn’t a double nougat slider.


----------



## killer b (Dec 5, 2020)

bimble said:


> i had a look at her Twitter and maybe this explains her brazenness
> 
> View attachment 241935


It is possible that, after being called an Israeli spy or a hook-nosed slut for the upteenth time that day, Mirwitch overreacted when she received an email from Stephen Solley (QC) telling her she doesn't deal with antisemitism daily. It's also possible that Stephen Solley (QC) isn't fully disclosing the content of his communications with her. Or maybe she _is_ an israeli spy, who knows.


----------



## cantsin (Dec 5, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> i think more were concerned about the power a Corbyn government might give to the likes of skwakbox/canary etc and to the army of zombie nutters who followed him
> 
> Other Jews I spoke to were concerned about what would happen (this was before covid) if/when brexit went tits up. They didn’t fancy being the group to be scapegoated



I have one lifelong Jewish mate, mainly secular, but always did Shabbat dinners with fambo when we were young, and his wedding was joyously Jewish   - centrist Labour at a push, Lib dem really, but v tolerant of my nonsense - and never minded my phone calls every now and again when this stuff was getting  tense / intense, to discuss / gauge his thoughts / opinions etc.

This is purely anecdotal, so no one needs to believe it obvs.... but living with his fambo in a nice,  jewish part of N Ldn, he was v straight fwd about it all, throughout 2015-2020 yrs - he felt near zero impact from the Corbyn / Left Labour AS hype himself, or any impact in the community ( not that he would pretend to be part of any tight knit community there, as with most people in leafier parts of LDN - people get on with their own thing ).

I'd be calling him up all flustered / pissed off etc when it was really kicking off, and quickly establish he'd barely noticed anything going on - the big difference between him and me ? He barely touches social media.

Am in no way claiming this says anything definitive, obvs, and have always acknowledged that we had a whole load of Palestine obsessed cranks in our ranks post 2015, a few of whom were straight up AS / conspira drek ( we've shed approx 95 % of them over 5 years I reckon ) , but he's a v sensible, impartial bloke, and I value his perspectives a lot.


----------



## rummo (Dec 5, 2020)

killer b said:


> It is possible that, after being called an Israeli spy or a hook-nosed slut for the upteenth time that day, Mirwitch overreacted when she received an email from Stephen Solley (QC) telling her she doesn't deal with antisemitism daily. It's also possible that Stephen Solley (QC) isn't fully disclosing the content of his communications with her. Or maybe she _is_ an israeli spy, who knows.




So she maybe overreacted by reporting a Jewish man of 80, who was the former chair of the Bar's Human Rights Committee to the Labour Party, his former Chambers and to the Bar Council? Yeah sounds plausible.

Or maybe he wrote something to her that was anti Semitic but Solley is so thick that he thinks that if he didn't mention it in his version of events that it wouldn't come out? Again, yeah sounds plausible.

How about this? Maybe she detests Solly because he criticises Israel and supports the Palestinians and she thinks that the definition of anti Semitism is now so broad that what he wrote falls within it. Is that not far more plausible than your desperate justifications for her actions?


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 5, 2020)

cantsin said:


> I have one lifelong Jewish mate, mainly secular, but always did Shabbat dinners with fambo when we were young, and his wedding was joyously Jewish   - centrist Labour at a push, Lib dem really, but v tolerant of my nonsense - and never minded my phone calls every now and again when this stuff was getting  tense / intense, to discuss / gauge his thoughts / opinions etc.
> 
> This is purely anecdotal, so no one needs to believe it obvs.... but living with his fambo in a nice,  jewish part of N Ldn, he was v straight fwd about it all, throughout 2015-2020 yrs - he felt near zero impact from the Corbyn / Left Labour AS hype himself, or any impact in the community ( not that he would pretend to be part of any tight knit community there, as with most people in leafier parts of LDN - people get on with their own thing ).
> 
> ...


The _we _here is horrible. Fucking hell man.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 5, 2020)

Aren't Zionists Palestine-obsessed cranks?


----------



## redsquirrel (Dec 5, 2020)

killer b said:


> Heroin, I've always assumed.


Surely (adulterated) penicillin?


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 5, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Aren't Zionists Palestine-obsessed cranks?



zionists more obsessed with denying Palestine ever existed imo


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 5, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> zionists more obsessed with denying Palestine ever existed imo


Yeh Palestine-obsessed cranks


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 5, 2020)

i guess I’m just anti-semantics


----------



## Serge Forward (Dec 5, 2020)

bimble said:


> Ice cream vans go all year in Scotland?!
> Is there anyone buying in December ?
> I miss that sound, used to be one on my street in brixton, yankee doodle. But he'd park up and turn the music off without letting it finish the tune.


Years ago, when I lived in the Potteries, the local ice cream van played Purple Haze


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Dec 5, 2020)

danny la rouge said:


> I don’t know where you’ve been all these decades, but if you haven’t seen any antisemitism on the left, you must have been moving in a very virtuous milieu!  Maybe you have been.  But it’s hard to imagine how you avoided it during Gulf War 1 or the STWC during Gulf War 2, for example.


Well, in various anarchist groups, Friends of the Earth, peace groups, anti GM, anti poll tax, eco groups, as well as trade unions I've not encountered antisemitism. The only racist views I can recollect openly espoused at meetings have been anti American and anti Kurdish. Gulf War 1 I was too much involved with being a brand new parent, Gulf War 2 quite active, but not with Stop the War. Maybe it's the company I keep.


----------



## cantsin (Dec 5, 2020)

butchersapron said:


> The _we _here is horrible. Fucking hell man.



don't wan't to get sucked into a BA cryptic - hole here, but... just don't know what you mean ...'we ' , as in the LP  I (rightly or wrongly ) joined in 2015 ?


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 5, 2020)

I wonder rummo


cantsin said:


> don't wan't to get sucked into a BA cryptic - hole here, but... just don't know what you mean ...'we ' , as in the LP I joined in 2015 ?


Yes


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 5, 2020)

cantsin said:


> don't wan't to get sucked into a BA cryptic - hole here, but... just don't know what you mean ...'we ' , as in the LP I joined in 2015 ?



Were there any Palestine obsessed members that weren't Anti-Semitic loons?


----------



## cantsin (Dec 5, 2020)

Rutita1 said:


> Were there any Palestine obsessed members that weren't Anti-Semitic loons?



I'd say yes, definitely - you can be completely over focused on Palestine, and not be AS.


----------



## cantsin (Dec 5, 2020)

butchersapron said:


> I wonder rummo
> 
> Yes



none the wiser squire


----------



## 19force8 (Dec 5, 2020)

danny la rouge said:


> I brought up my own age. I often do. These are all my own teeth.


And you have the receipts to prove it.


----------



## tim (Dec 6, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> Well, in various anarchist groups, Friends of the Earth, peace groups, anti GM, anti poll tax, eco groups, as well as trade unions I've not encountered antisemitism. The only racist views I can recollect openly espoused at meetings have been anti American and anti Kurdish. Gulf War 1 I was too much involved with being a brand new parent, Gulf War 2 quite active, but not with Stop the War. Maybe it's the company I keep.



At the last  STWC meeting I went to Jews were accused of financing the Norman Conquest of 1066.


----------



## toblerone3 (Dec 6, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Sigh



Why do you "sigh" you silly bean.


----------



## steveseagull (Dec 6, 2020)

Just imagine being sat round a dinner table with Ed Balls, Yvette Cooper and a dead antisemite



Keith's Stazi will be onto this surely.


----------



## Dogsauce (Dec 6, 2020)

Rutita1 said:


> _Bigotry_ is bad but ageism is fine?
> 
> Not the first time being older has been used to denigrate or as some kind of 'handicap' on this thread.



Isn‘t it the opposite, in saying someone older is more knowledgeable/experienced? Therefore they ought to know better and pointless trying to change their view?


----------



## rummo (Dec 6, 2020)

steveseagull said:


> Just imagine being sat round a dinner table with Ed Balls, Yvette Cooper and a dead antisemite
> 
> 
> 
> Keith's Stazi will be onto this surely.





And the Board of Deputies.

Remember their attacks on Boris Johnson when he took time out from his  election campaign to attend the unveiling of her statue?

Surely you must remember? 

The headlines in all the newspapers.

'Tory Leader Attends Unveiling Of Statue Of Vehement Anti Semite.'

The incessant questions.

The poring over of everything he'd every written. Every event he's ever attended. Everyone he's ever met.

It was relentless.


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 7, 2020)

rummo said:


> And the Board of Deputies.
> 
> Remember their attacks on Boris Johnson when he took time out from his  election campaign to attend the unveiling of her statue?
> 
> ...


You’re relentless. You’re obsessed.


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 7, 2020)

Definitely no antisemitism here.


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 7, 2020)

_puts thread back on ignore_


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 7, 2020)

frogwoman said:


> Definitely no antisemitism here.


Not that I’ve noticed. And I’ve been on this thread decades longer than everyone’s Dad.


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 7, 2020)

danny la rouge said:


> Not that I’ve noticed. And I’ve been on this thread decades longer than everyone’s Dad.



Passionately posting on this thread for the last 37 years


----------



## bimble (Dec 7, 2020)

frogwoman is much wiser than me.


----------



## tim (Dec 7, 2020)

danny la rouge said:


> Not that I’ve noticed. And I’ve been on this thread decades longer than everyone’s Dad.



Yes, we don't get those rum customers you find in other places.


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 8, 2020)

tim said:


> At the last  STWC meeting I went to Jews were accused of financing the Norman Conquest of 1066.


Thats quite an accusation. Are you sure you don't mean zionists or the state of Israel? Definitely a thing during 1066.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Dec 8, 2020)

tim said:


> At the last  STWC meeting I went to Jews were accused of financing the Norman Conquest of 1066.


Well, as I said in a response to danny la rouge I never got involved in the Stop the Norman Conquest campaigning


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 8, 2020)

danny la rouge said:


> You’re relentless. You’re obsessed.


I disagree, it's a fair point. As the BoD were demanding members of the Labour party were investigated/disciplined and the LP leadership sign up to their pledges Tory MPs were openly celebrating the erection of the statue to Astor as if her anti-semitism didn't matter. I don't think I saw an article by the JC or a single tweet from the BoD at the time. The double standards are obvious and that's a good example.


----------



## co-op (Dec 8, 2020)

killer b said:


> FWIW I'm absolutely certain that Miriam Mirwich, a relatively high profile female Jewish Labour Party officer, recieves daily antisemitic abuse of the most lurid type.



How can you be so certain? It's possible but I doubt it. I'm sure there'll be something but this idea that there's some kind of massive tide of AS, that Jewish labour party members have to experience, I just don't see evidence for it. I'm not on twitter though so maybe I miss it but twitter is just a crank-magnifier, it can let a few thousand nutters run riot but they're nothing numerically are they?

Has she published the kind of thing she's been getting? Is there any evidence at all of "daily" or (your words) "of the most lurid type"? Her reaction to Solley's email makes her look more like a fanatical denouncer than a victim.


----------



## killer b (Dec 8, 2020)

co-op said:


> How can you be so certain? It's possible but I doubt it. I'm sure there'll be something but this idea that there's some kind of massive tide of AS, that Jewish labour party members have to experience, I just don't see evidence for it. I'm not on twitter though so maybe I miss it but twitter is just a crank-magnifier, it can let a few thousand nutters run riot but they're nothing numerically are they?
> 
> Has she published the kind of thing she's been getting? Is there any evidence at all of "daily" or (your words) "of the most lurid type"? Her reaction to Solley's email makes her look more like a fanatical denouncer than a victim.


she does sometimes share the stuff people send her, yeah.


----------



## co-op (Dec 8, 2020)

tim said:


> At the last  STWC meeting I went to Jews were accused of financing the Norman Conquest of 1066.



The whole origin of the blood libel myth (at least in its early medieval version) is closely linked to the murder of William of Norwich and the subsequent massacre of Jews in Norwich. This was all tied into a Norman vs Saxon (or at any rate "local") narrative. The Norwich Jewish community had mostly arrived in the century after the Norman Conquest. Still this is the first time I've heard the "they financed the Conquest" story.


----------



## killer b (Dec 8, 2020)

co-op said:


> How can you be so certain? It's possible but I doubt it. I'm sure there'll be something but this idea that there's some kind of massive tide of AS, that Jewish labour party members have to experience, I just don't see evidence for it. I'm not on twitter though so maybe I miss it but twitter is just a crank-magnifier, it can let a few thousand nutters run riot but they're nothing numerically are they?
> 
> Has she published the kind of thing she's been getting? Is there any evidence at all of "daily" or (your words) "of the most lurid type"? Her reaction to Solley's email makes her look more like a fanatical denouncer than a victim.


I really find this kind of stuff pretty depressing. Is your first reaction when any woman complains of receiving daily abuse to demand evidence? I guess it probably isn't. What's the difference?


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 8, 2020)

'Hysterical'


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 8, 2020)

As I said. *Every* Jewish person on the left has experienced this, yes even those like Naomi Wimborne Idrissi and so on. I've fucking experienced it, I could provide a long list but given the likelihood most people won't be believed or just be told 'Yeah but it was actually against the state of Israel' or now apparently 'the middle class'. challenging it becomes a pretty pointless endeavour so they don't bother, and many end being repelled by organised left wing politics altogether.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 8, 2020)

frogwoman said:


> Passionately posting on this thread for the last 37 years


and the pms of support to prove it


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 8, 2020)

The only reason I'm looking on this thread is probably PMS tbh


----------



## rummo (Dec 8, 2020)

'Is your first reaction when any woman complains of receiving daily abuse to demand evidence?'

Speaking for myself, no.

Until I learn how she reacted to the email from Stephen Solley, and how she had characterised it as anti Semitic abuse, then I would start to think that maybe she's not being entirely genuine and would be wary of taking anything she said at face value without some credible corroborative evidence.

I think that would be a fair, balanced and reasonable position to take.


----------



## killer b (Dec 8, 2020)

I wasn't talking to you, fucko.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 8, 2020)

co-op said:


> Still this is the first time I've heard the "they financed the Conquest" story.



Bit of a digression for the thread...but...a while ago when I was researching my family history in the Sussex/Kent border area I came across this interesting history explaining the dark, antisemitic story behind the naming of Jury's Gap near Rye.

I think this sort of line about the conquest derives from the historical fact that William was regarded as relatively benevolent towards Jews, and many French Jews sought 'asylum' from persecution in Normandy. William did also accept a post-conquest immigration of Norman Jews to England, many who were themselves keen to escape Rouen where pre-crusade pogroms were increasingly common.

In early Norman England the Jewish population found a degree of protection and established communities in ports and trading centres in Sussex, Kent, London and Southampton, and then Cambridge, Oxford, Norwich and Winchester. The proximity of these communities to the protection of Norman castles, their financial links and use of French language suggests that Jews may well have been closely associated with the ruling Norman regime in the minds of the ruled.

The 2+ centuries following the conquest saw the English Jews suffer from the conflict of interest between the Royal courts increasingly reliant on tax revenues levied and the debtor Norman nobility who wanted rid of their creditors.


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 8, 2020)

I would recommend EM Rose's The Murder of William of Norwich on this topic but, in the early years especially, it was entirely a project of church leaders and to some extent the aristocracy, and didn't really have much to do with peasant or working class resentment at all. Different to eg Poland in the 16th century


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 8, 2020)

Rutita1 said:


> I disagree, it's a fair point. As the BoD were demanding members of the Labour party were investigated/disciplined and the LP leadership sign up to their pledges Tory MPs were openly celebrating the erection of the statue to Astor as if her anti-semitism didn't matter. I don't think I saw an article by the JC or a single tweet from the BoD at the time. The double standards are obvious and that's a good example.


The BoD are conservative because they’re a long established religious body, not because they’re Jewish. rummo is mapping class onto Jewishness, and then not seeing (I hope) where s/he (he I think: please tell us your pronouns rummo) is applying antisemitic tropes, and hoping that qualifiers like “most” is a way out of this.  It isn’t, and not just because the judgement is difficult to justify statistically.  Although that is of course a line of questioning, and one you were keen to pursue.  My interest lay elsewhere.

The Board of Deputies are conservative and reactionary.  This isn’t controversial.  They apply double standards. Also not controversial.  But when you start putting that together with whether they are acting in the class interests of Jews in Britain, then one has to start being very careful about what it is one is implying.

Jewishness is not exactly the same as being a practitioner of Judaism.  And antisemitism does not restrict itself to religious Jews.  Once we start trying to move from a specific to a generalisation about a “race”, then we start having to look at what it is that’s being said.

The fact that there are conservative Jews does not mean there is not a antisemitism problem on the left. The fact that there is a conservative Jewish body turning a blind eye to antisemitism on the right does not mean there is no antisemitism on the left.  Nor in fact does it necessarily mean the antisemitism on the left is being exaggerated.  It only means a blind eye is being turned to certain other antisemitism.

Nor does this mean that Jews as a bloc are acting in a composite Jewish/class interest. There is a body that the establishment is happy to use as “spokespeople” for a “racial” group, and that has an effect of pushing in a reactionary direction. This process can be seen duplicating itself across many groups, creating the impression of a growing ghettoisation of society into ever more reactionary “communities”. The trouble is that this is a self-fulfilling process. It is “Racecraft”. The sign that racism is at work. It entrenches racism in society, and leads us ever further into the pseudoscientific biologicalisation of politics.

So let’s start where we have some agency. Does the left have an antisemitism problem? Yes it does. Does it help Jewish people to feel comfortable with left politics if we say “no, actually”, or “what about”, or “I’ve never seen it”, or “not all lefties”. Not a good look, is it?

Corbyn’s handling of his party’s problem was inept, and allowed his enemies to zone in on his weakness, like a king and a rook chasing a lone king into smaller and smaller squares until checkmate was eventually possible, because Corbyn limited his own moves, lost his high value pieces and couldn’t command the centre of the board (sorry, I’m taking this too far but I’ve just finished the Queen’s Gambit).

This was in large measure because Corbyn has himself too long moved in a milieu where antisemitism has seeped into the discourse, and he has himself absorbed some of it. The prism through which he is looking is already skewed. He doesn’t notice tropes in murals and so on.

Left electoral politics has the ever present problem of what the establishment will allow. As an extra parliamentary communist I get impatient with the Labour left running itself into checkmate and then, when analysing old games, refusing to learn the lessons of its mistakes.


----------



## bimble (Dec 8, 2020)

These threads about antisemitism they’re the last place I go expecting to get nice feelings like optimism or seasonal cheer but this past couple of days, maybe thanks in part to rummo, have been really heartening.


----------



## killer b (Dec 8, 2020)

danny la rouge said:


> Yes it does. Does it help Jewish people to feel comfortable with left politics if we say “no, actually”, or “what about”, or “I’ve never seen it”, or “not all lefties”.


this is really important, and considering the discussion on here over the last week - a board where the posters are supposedly politically sophisticated - can understand entirely why the Labour Party has tried to clamp down on discussion in CLPs: because every time this is discussed it dissolves into this kind of whataboutery (at best - it often dissolves into outright denialism & veiled or not so veiled antisemitism). This always happens - and we end up with this. 



frogwoman said:


> challenging it becomes a pretty pointless endeavour so they don't bother, and many end being repelled by organised left wing politics altogether.



Some jewish leftwingers choose to ignore or excuse this stuff, and I can understand how that happens. But those that don't are being driven out.


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 8, 2020)

Agree with a lot but not all of that danny la rouge but it's the sort of thing I'd rather discuss in PM than on this thread.

I'd add though, the BOD is the sort of organisation run by people who like putting themselves forward for being on church (or synagogue in this case) committees. It needs to be thought of like that. Ridiculously bureaucratic and slow moving, and with a lot of social conservatism and adherence to daft rules. Yes every synagogue puts forward a member supposedly voted by the members, but in practice many people (me for example) never know when these elections are going on, and often nobody else will put themselves forward. Not all of them are right wing, a few are active left wingers and many aren't that interested in politics at all.

Indeed, some Likudnik type campaigning groups have been formed explicitly in opposition to the BOD because its too 'establishment' and left wing.


----------



## bimble (Dec 8, 2020)

I didn't even know that BOD is made up of synagogue representatives. Learnt yesterday that it’s estimated that about half of jews in the uk are members of a synagogue, the other half incl me are not,  so already that's half who are not even nominally being represented at all, by this great voice that is presumed to speak for us all.

At the same time though,  JVL can really fuck off.


----------



## rummo (Dec 8, 2020)

' rummo is mapping class onto Jewishness, and then not seeing (I hope) where s/he (he I think: please tell us your pronouns rummo) is applying antisemitic tropes, and hoping that qualifiers like “most” is a way out of this. It isn’t, and not just because the judgement is difficult to justify statistically.  '

###

Would you level the same  accusation, and with the same implied innuendo,  at Daniel Staetsky,  whose piece I liked to, who made the same point I did, albeit more eloquently and more authoritatively than me (in fairness it's his day job and professional specialism) ?


----------



## Knotted (Dec 8, 2020)

I slightly disagree with the bit about Corbyn's inept handling. Not that it wasn't inept, just that the only thing in his power was to platitudinise about the problem or perform some sort of showy gesture about it.

Now that we have Starmer who is platitudinising better than Corbyn and willing to perform any (authoritarian) gesture demanded of him, that's more or less fixed Labour's antisemitism problem in terms of it being a political problem _for the Labour Party_, but is the actual _problem for Jews_ on the ground any better? I don't know the answer to that question, but I don't see why it makes any real difference what the party leader does or does not do.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 8, 2020)

killer b said:


> this is really important, and considering the discussion on here over the last week - a board where the posters are supposedly politically sophisticated - can understand entirely why the Labour Party has tried to clamp down on discussion in CLPs: because every time this is discussed it dissolves into this kind of whataboutery (at best - it often dissolves into outright denialism & veiled or not so veiled antisemitism). This always happens - and we end up with this.


What is being discussed at CLPs though is not anti-semitism, but _the actions and response from Starmer _- ones that directly and immediately contradict the findings and suggestions of the EHRC report. It is HIS actions that fuel the fire that your describe. It gives grounds for the belief "this is all just a witchhunt", which in turn feeds into a downplaying of the actual problem.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 8, 2020)

Knotted said:


> I slightly disagree with the bit about Corbyn's inept handling. Not that it wasn't inept, just that the only thing in his power was to platitudinise about the problem or perform some sort of showy gesture about it.


My memory of it is he seemed to be dealing with it proportionately and tried to speed the process along even, only to be sabotaged by Labour Party HQ , no?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 8, 2020)

ska invita said:


> My memory of it is he seemed to be dealing with it proportionately and tried to speed the process along even, only to be sabotaged by Labour Party HQ , no?


get with the programme - the message is that jc was very much the problem, not just part of the problem


----------



## two sheds (Dec 8, 2020)

ska invita said:


> My memory of it is he seemed to be dealing with it proportionately and tried to speed the process along even, only to be sabotaged by Labour Party HQ , no?



When he _did_ intervene directly he was criticized by the ECHR. Damned if he did, damned if he didn't.


----------



## bimble (Dec 8, 2020)

Knotted said:


> Now that we have Starmer who is platitudinising better than Corbyn and willing to perform any (authoritarian) gesture demanded of him, that's more or less fixed Labour's antisemitism problem in terms of it being a political problem _for the Labour Party_, but is the actual _problem for Jews_ on the ground any better? I don't know the answer to that question, but I don't see why it makes any real difference what the party leader does or does not do.


Agree. imo its much worse now, loads and loads of people who never had a problem with jews before, probably never even thought about them, now hold us responsible for the destruction of the corbyn project. thats what actually hurts. And that's where Corb's statement could be said to be right, about the overblown media attention hurting jews. It’s just not what he meant.


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 8, 2020)

rummo said:


> Would you level the same accusation, and with the same implied innuendo, at Daniel Staetsky, whose piece I liked to, who made the same point I did, albeit more eloquently and more authoritatively than me (in fairness it's his day job and professional specialism) ?


I haven’t read the Staetsky article.  But I’m afraid “I found a Jew I think agrees with me” is not the get out of jail card you think.


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 8, 2020)

And again. It's nothing to do with Starmer lol. I've been banging on about this for more than a fucking decade ffs. Nothing ever changes.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 8, 2020)

two sheds said:


> When he _did_ intervene directly he was criticized by the ECHR. Damned if he did, damned if he didn't.


the echr? european court of human rights? are you sure?


----------



## killer b (Dec 8, 2020)

ska invita said:


> What is being discussed at CLPs though is not anti-semitism, but _the actions and response from Starmer _- ones that directly and immediately contradict the findings and suggestions of the EHRC report. It is HIS actions that fuel the fire that your describe. It gives grounds for the belief "this is all just a witchhunt", which in turn feeds into a downplaying of the actual problem.


Regardless what the exact thing that has triggered the meeting/ motion / whatever, it dissolves into whataboutery, outright denialism & veiled antisemitism, just like these threads. That's the problem I'm talking about, the trigger to that happening is pretty irrelevant.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 8, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> the echr? european court of human rights? are you sure?



It was a palindrome 

Nah nah not a palindrome ... an anagram

I even fucking checked it


----------



## rummo (Dec 8, 2020)

danny la rouge said:


> I haven’t read the Staetsky article.  But I’m afraid “I found a Jew I think agrees with me” is not the get out of jail card you think.



I'm starting to get the impression that you're not nearly as smart or well informed as you think you are.


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 8, 2020)

Staetsky seems like a weird likudnik, not really the sort of person I'd want backing up my argument 'speaking as an anti zionist'


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 8, 2020)

bimble said:


> And that's where Corb's statement could be said to be right, about the overblown media attention hurting jews. It’s just not what he meant.



Was really difficult when you just couldn't fucking get away with seeing it in the media all the time and having random people ask you about it.


----------



## bimble (Dec 8, 2020)

frogwoman said:


> Was really difficult when you just couldn't fucking get away with seeing it in the media all the time and having random people ask you about it.


For ages and ages. Fucking horrible it’s been.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 8, 2020)

bimble said:


> For ages and ages. Fucking horrible it’s been.



For Labour left too.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 8, 2020)

danny la rouge thanks for your post. I'd have a couple of slight disagreements/questions too but again they'd be better in PM.

One question though that is slightly off topic but a sort of thought experiment. What are communists on the board doing to root out antisemitic communists (and similarly what are anarchists doing to root out antisemitic anarchists)? I ask because presumably you accept Marx's analysis and I've seen quotes that suggest antisemitism was central to that analysis (similarly Bakunin).

And no I don't really believe this but I'd like an answer anyway.


----------



## rummo (Dec 8, 2020)

'Staetsky seems like a weird likudnik'


In fairness, perhaps not everyone can be as free from prejudice as you.

Have you any idea how ridiculous you sound? Seriously.


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 8, 2020)

two sheds said:


> For Labour left too.


Sorry, but its not the same thing.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 8, 2020)

Yes true.


----------



## killer b (Dec 8, 2020)

two sheds said:


> For Labour left too.


Fucking hell. Do you really think this is an appropriate response to two jews discussing the impact of antisemitism on them?

_I too, a white man, am a victim here._


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 8, 2020)

rummo said:


> I'm starting to get the impression that you're not nearly as smart or well informed as you think you are.


I’m making no claim to intelligence or erudition. In this instance I’m saying two things:

1). You finding a Jewish academic whose work you say backs up your argument says nothing at all - at all - about whether you’re otherwise falling for antisemitic tropes.

2). The argument is in any case a dead end. My GPs are all Asian. Does that tell me anything about whether or not they experience racism? Not in the least.

That is not to say that there aren’t class processes at work. Just not where you’re labouring to find them.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 8, 2020)

killer b said:


> Fucking hell. Do you really think this is an appropriate response to two jews discussing the impact of antisemitism on them?
> 
> _I too, a white man, am a victim here._



Wasn't the intention. Apologies though.


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 8, 2020)

two sheds said:


> danny la rouge thanks for your post. I'd have a couple of slight disagreements/questions too but again they'd be better in PM.
> 
> One question though that is slightly off topic but a sort of thought experiment. What are communists on the board doing to root out antisemitic communists (and similarly what are anarchists doing to root out antisemitic anarchists)? I ask because presumably you accept Marx's analysis and I've seen quotes that suggest antisemitism was central to that analysis (similarly Bakunin).
> 
> And no I don't really believe this but I'd like an answer anyway.


Not sure I understand the question.  But if you are asking “was Bakunin antisemitic?”, then the answer is of course that he did say antisemitic things. He was also Slav nationalist for a period.  Did these attitudes remain with him?  Well, they are contradicted in other examples of his writing.  I’m not so interested in individual morality or blame. People can change.  I’m interested in societal forces.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 8, 2020)

danny la rouge said:


> Not sure I understand the question.  But if you are asking “was Bakunin antisemitic?”, then the answer is of course that he did say antisemitic things. He was also Slav nationalist for a period.  Did these attitudes remain with him?  Well, they are contradicted in other examples of his writing.  I’m not so interested in individual morality or blame. People can change.  I’m interested in societal forces.



Yes but that's not the same standard that Corbyn and Labour are being held to. It's no defence for Corbyn to have said antisemitic things but contradict them in other examples of his writing.

I was going to quote from both Marx and Bakunin but the quotes themselves are so unpleasant that I won't. Orders of magnitude worse than anything Corbyn's said. If a Labour supporter had defended him in the way you just did they'd be accused of making excuses for antisemitism. And supporters of Labour are interested in societal forces too.

Again I'm not saying I'm behind what I'm saying but that's the standard Corbyn and Labour have been held to. You said Corbyn was painting himself into a corner - I see it more that he was painted into a corner by the media and by the right of the party.


----------



## killer b (Dec 8, 2020)

you fucking clown.


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 8, 2020)

two sheds said:


> Yes but that's not the same standard that Corbyn and Labour are being held to. It's no defence for Corbyn to have said antisemitic things but contradict them in other examples of his writing.
> 
> I was going to quote from both Marx and Bakunin but the quotes themselves are so unpleasant that I won't. Orders of magnitude worse than anything Corbyn's said. If a Labour supporter had defended him in the way you just did they'd be accused of making excuses for antisemitism. And supporters of Labour are interested in societal forces too.
> 
> Again I'm not saying I'm behind what I'm saying but that's the standard Corbyn and Labour have been held to. You said Corbyn was painting himself into a corner - I see it more that he was painted into a corner by the media and by the right of the party.


We’ve had 154 pages of this particular line. You’ll excuse me if I bow out of repeating myself.

I had hoped the thread was moving on. But if it’s going to go back round in circles, I’m out.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 8, 2020)

killer b said:


> you fucking clown.



You're happy with the double standards then?


----------



## two sheds (Dec 8, 2020)

danny la rouge said:


> We’ve had 154 pages of this particular line. You’ll excuse me if I bow out of repeating myself.
> 
> I had hoped the thread was moving on. But if it’s going to go back round in circles, I’m out.



Have we? I've not seen this asked before.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 8, 2020)

danny la rouge said:


> We’ve had 154 pages of this particular line. You’ll excuse me if I bow out of repeating myself.
> 
> I had hoped the thread was moving on. But if it’s going to go back round in circles, I’m out.


it's the coriolis effect on the internet


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 8, 2020)

two sheds said:


> If a Labour supporter had defended him in the way you just did they'd be accused of making excuses for antisemitism.


I’m not defending _Marx_ or _Bakunin_.  I’m not interested in doing so.  I apologise for giving the impression I was. That’s my fault.


----------



## killer b (Dec 8, 2020)

I don't give a fuck about your 'double standards' and dickhead comparisons with people who've been dead for hundreds of years. Real, living jews and actual present day antisemitism in modern left-wing political movements is what we're talking about. Seriously. Talk about something real rather than trying to divert it into whatever idiot thought just crossed your mind.


----------



## Knotted (Dec 8, 2020)

bimble said:


> Agree. imo its much worse now, loads and loads of people who never had a problem with jews before, probably never even thought about them, now hold us responsible for the destruction of the corbyn project. thats what actually hurts. And that's where Corb's statement could be said to be right, about the overblown media attention hurting jews. It’s just not what he meant.



That's my sense unfortunately. I've seen similar from non-Corbynist Labour loyalists.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 8, 2020)

killer b said:


> I don't give a fuck about your 'double standards' and dickhead comparisons with people who've been dead for hundreds of years. Real, living jews and actual present day antisemitism in modern left-wing political movements is what we're talking about. Seriously. Talk about something real rather than trying to divert it into whatever idiot thought just crossed your mind.



So you're denying there are any modern communists or anarchist antisemites? I've seen defences similar to that about Labour left, with the accusation that it's refusal to accept antisemitism.

If you can't see the parallel then you certainly don't give a fuck about 'double standards'.


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 8, 2020)

.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 8, 2020)

Sorry froggy but I'm just trying to point out that the relentless focus on Corbyn and the Labour left in the media with one set of standards could quite easily have been focused on revolutionary socialists. In just one post Danny had to apologize for giving the wrong impression. It's fucking easy to happen.


----------



## killer b (Dec 8, 2020)

two sheds said:


> So you're denying there are any modern communists or anarchist antisemites?


Why are you making things up?


----------



## killer b (Dec 8, 2020)

two sheds said:


> In just one post Danny had to apologize for giving the wrong impression.


lol, you are really this thick.


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 8, 2020)

Yea 'revolutionary socialists' can be, and often are, just as bad. But then I don't think I stated otherwise.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 8, 2020)

killer b said:


> lol, you are really this thick.





danny la rouge said:


> I’m not defending _Marx_ or _Bakunin_.  I’m not interested in doing so.  I apologise for giving the impression I was. That’s my fault.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 8, 2020)

frogwoman said:


> Yea 'revolutionary socialists' can be, and often are, just as bad. But then I don't think I stated otherwise.



Indeed, you've not - then why the constant focus on Corbyn and the Labour party with revolutionary socialists not ever being mentioned? 

I'd say it's probably because there is antisemitism among revolutionary socialists and anarchists but it's lower level than in the rest of society. Which is what also seems to be true of the Labour party.


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 8, 2020)

Corbyn really ain't the victim here BTW. And I have stated, repeatedly, that this long predates him.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 8, 2020)

Agreed.


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 8, 2020)

I don't know, because he was the leader off the opposition and therefore the most public example of this tendency maybe.


----------



## Knotted (Dec 8, 2020)

ska invita said:


> My memory of it is he seemed to be dealing with it proportionately and tried to speed the process along even, only to be sabotaged by Labour Party HQ , no?



The idea that the responsibility for the disciplinary side of things should fall on the leader's office never made sense to me regardless of how badly party HQ behaved.

But even then, why are we thinking of this problem in terms of Labour Party discipline? To play devil's advocate a bit, does it even help kicking anti-Semites out of the LP? If they find a forum for their views elsewhere on the left, they're not just going to go away. There's a definite online social network of these types and they still get a broader hearing.


----------



## mauvais (Dec 8, 2020)

co-op said:


> How can you be so certain? It's possible but I doubt it. I'm sure there'll be something but this idea that there's some kind of massive tide of AS, that Jewish labour party members have to experience, I just don't see evidence for it. I'm not on twitter though so maybe I miss it but twitter is just a crank-magnifier, it can let a few thousand nutters run riot but they're nothing numerically are they?


What does this mean? What would constitute numerically significant?

You don't need a very high volume, quality or broad spread of abuse for it to have meaning. Nor does it always have to be directly to you personally. Come on, this is basic.


----------



## killer b (Dec 8, 2020)

two sheds said:


> .


Danny always bows out of a worthless argument gracefully is all. We could all learn from him. I'm too pissed off not to call an idiot a fucking idiot today though, sorry.


----------



## killer b (Dec 8, 2020)

mauvais said:


> Come on, this is basic.


five years on this and we aren't even at basic yet.


----------



## co-op (Dec 8, 2020)

killer b said:


> I really find this kind of stuff pretty depressing. Is your first reaction when any woman complains of receiving daily abuse to demand evidence? I guess it probably isn't. What's the difference?



I think I have reasonably good antennae for anti-semitism, especially the less obvious coded stuff - often unconscious imo - and I've heard incredibly little in the Labour Party, tbh none that I can remember. So this "daily struggle" against anti-semitism just doesn't accord with my own experiences, limited though they are. The times I have heard anti-semitic stuff - oblique usually - where at things like Occupy, or STW marches where intensely anti-Israeli stuff seemed obviously in the zone of anti-semitic to me (allowing AS to be a subtle thing and hard-to-define precisely sometimes) and I guess some of those people ended up in the Labour Party under Corbyn. But I'm talking oblique here - things like Matt Taibis description of Goldman Sachs as a bloodsucking vampire squid on the face of humanity or whatever his phrase was, that to me deployed anti-semitic imagery & attached it to a Bank with a Jewish-sounding name, people seemed to me to revel slightly in this phrase there was something visceral about it (I'd always ask, how about Barclays? What have they done for humanity lately?). But this is the kind of unconscious anti-semitism that could easily be passed on by ignorance rather than any open anti-Jewish intent, if anything it just reveals how much latent anti-semitism there is in our culture - these kinds of phrases just 'feel good'.

And I don't think your comparison (ie would I dismiss a woman's complaint of harrassment) is good; this whole issue has been massively politicised within the Labour civil war, it means it's quite hard (impossible?) to take anyone's word just on good faith, there's been far too much bad faith and it just seems at odds with my experience. Maybe I was just lucky.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 8, 2020)

killer b said:


> Danny always bows out of a worthless argument gracefully is all. We could all learn from him. I'm too pissed off not to call an idiot a fucking idiot today though, sorry.



Yep because you don't want to defend your double standards. You're happy calling people antisemites but you don't even want to look at antisemitism within your political community.


----------



## killer b (Dec 8, 2020)

I'm not a communist?


----------



## two sheds (Dec 8, 2020)

Ah ok, not a revolutionary socialist or an anarchist either? What is your political persuasion?


----------



## killer b (Dec 8, 2020)

I'm a member of the Labour Party.


----------



## killer b (Dec 8, 2020)

(although tbf the cancellation of my membership is imminent)


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 8, 2020)

two sheds said:


> ...


You’re extracting the wrong meaning from that.

I’ll try again: I don’t worship the person of Marx, Bakunin, or anyone else.  I don’t follow heroes, only good ideas. Marx and Bakunin had many personal failings.  I do not now nor have I ever intended to excuse those.

Are there antisemitic extra parliamentary communists? Yes. When I said “the left” had an antisemitism problem, I meant that in the much wider sense, regardless of whether I’d recognise them as fellow travellers. This shouldn’t be a surprise, I’ve said it many many times over the years.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 8, 2020)

killer b said:


> I'm a member of the Labour Party.



lol

Fucking hell then - even worse.


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 8, 2020)

two sheds said:


> lol
> 
> Fucking hell then - even worse.


What?


----------



## bimble (Dec 8, 2020)

Normal service has resumed I see.
Can I say that my next door neighbour is a bit of a dick without also at the same time condemning the equally dickheady people I met once who live in a town nearby? Double standards!


----------



## bimble (Dec 8, 2020)

two sheds said:


> lol
> 
> Fucking hell then - even worse.


Why is it worse? Letting the side down is he?


----------



## two sheds (Dec 8, 2020)

danny la rouge said:


> You’re extracting the wrong meaning from that.
> 
> I’ll try again: I don’t worship the person of Marx, Bakunin, or anyone else.  I don’t follow heroes, only good ideas. Marx and Bakunin had many personal failings.  I do not now nor have I ever intended to excuse those.
> 
> Are there antisemitic extra parliamentary communists? Yes. When I said “the left” had an antisemitism problem, I meant that in the much wider sense, regardless of whether I’d recognise them as fellow travellers. This shouldn’t be a surprise, I’ve said it many many times over the years.



Yes no problem with that. Corbyn and labour left aren't allowed those nuances though. One statement with words clumsily chosen and you're labelled permanently.  

Your statement was: "But if you are asking “was Bakunin antisemitic?”, then the answer is of course that he did say antisemitic things. ... Did these attitudes remain with him?  Well, they are contradicted in other examples of his writing."

Replace Bakunin with Corbyn and you'd be labelled as an apologist. But like I say - I'm not actually accusing you of anything. I wanted to make the point that focusing on Corbyn and Labour is not holding everyone else to the same standards, and I've made it the point. I'll bow out now too.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 8, 2020)

danny la rouge said:


> What?



Bit of a joke really, he's in a party with Starmer as leader  while I resigned last week


----------



## killer b (Dec 8, 2020)

A loss they'll be reeling from for some time to come.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 8, 2020)

killer b said:


> A loss we'll be reeling from for some time to come.



cfu


----------



## killer b (Dec 8, 2020)

Pretty annoying tbh. Couldn't you lot have fucked off a few years ago? We might have a Labour government now.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 8, 2020)

bimble said:


> Normal service has resumed I see.
> Can I say that my next door neighbour is a bit of a dick without also at the same time condemning the equally dickheady people I met once who live in a town nearby? Double standards!



To an extent, but if people keep saying what a dick their next door neighbour is and I say 'ah yes but what about those people who are just as dickheady' it's not a good response to say 'no we're talking about this dick we shouldn't talk about those dickheady people',


----------



## two sheds (Dec 8, 2020)

killer b said:


> Pretty annoying tbh. Couldn't you lot have fucked off a few years ago? We might have a Labour government now.



Starmer for PM


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 8, 2020)

two sheds said:


> Yes no problem with that. Corbyn and labour left aren't allowed those nuances though. One statement with words clumsily chosen and you're labelled permanently.
> 
> Your statement was: "But if you are asking “was Bakunin antisemitic?”, then the answer is of course that he did say antisemitic things. ... Did these attitudes remain with him?  Well, they are contradicted in other examples of his writing."
> 
> Replace Bakunin with Corbyn and you'd be labelled as an apologist. But like I say - I'm not actually accusing you of anything. I wanted to make the point that focusing on Corbyn and Labour is not holding everyone else to the same standards, and I've made it the point. I'll bow out now too.


The point you are making is pure whataboutery. It’s pretty ugly.

I have never claimed the Labour Party had more antisemitism than other organisations (insert names here).  I don’t even think it does.  I think percentage and saturation wise, the SWP for example is many magnitudes worse.

But when has it ever been an excuse to say “our racism problem isn’t as bad as the KKK’s”?  Of course it isn’t. Nobody thinks Corbyn advocated the final solution ffs. And harping on and on and on that he didn’t is only making things worse.  Come on.  Page 155 now!


----------



## bimble (Dec 8, 2020)

Just out of curiousity two sheds do you feel that if it weren't for this whole antisemitism thing Corbyn would be the Pm now?


----------



## two sheds (Dec 8, 2020)

danny la rouge said:


> The point you are making is pure whataboutery. It’s pretty ugly.
> 
> I have never claimed the Labour Party had more antisemitism than other organisations (insert names here).  I don’t even think it does.  I think percentage and saturation wise, the SWP for example is many magnitudes worse.
> 
> But when has it ever been an excuse to say “our racism problem isn’t as bad as the KKK’s”?  Of course it isn’t. Nobody thinks Corbyn advocated the final solution ffs. And harping on and on and on that he didn’t is only making things worse.  Come on.  Page 155 now!



I've agreed that labour had (doubtless still has) a problem with antisemitism but the extent has been blown up by the media and the right of the party. So I've not been harping on and on that there was no problem. I think it's fair to point this out. And yes page 155 and this seems still to be disputed.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 8, 2020)

bimble said:


> Just out of curiousity two sheds do you feel that if it weren't for this whole antisemitism thing Corbyn would be the Pm now?



Probably not - the Sun and the Daily Mail and the Express and the Telegraph and the BBC and the Guardian would have found something else - support for terrorism perhaps. Did get close in 2017 though. If the focus had been on his policies then he might well have done then.


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 8, 2020)

Try having 'what about this thing with jeremy corbyn then.' at your mates birthday drinks. Every fucking time.


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 8, 2020)

Apart from Jews I don't think the antisemitism stuff had any more than a marginal impact on the average Tory voter except possibly to feed into a general story about his lack of patriotism tbh. It's not as though there's a shortage of antisemites among non-Labour voters. There is less than 300,000 Jews in the UK and he lost by a lot more than that.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 8, 2020)

killer b said:


> A loss they'll be reeling from for some time to come.


they'll be dancing away for a long time to come


----------



## killer b (Dec 8, 2020)

co-op said:


> And I don't think your comparison (ie would I dismiss a woman's complaint of harrassment) is good; this whole issue has been massively politicised within the Labour civil war, it means it's quite hard (impossible?) to take anyone's word just on good faith, there's been far too much bad faith and it just seems at odds with my experience. Maybe I was just lucky.


Are you a woman or a jew, out of idle curiousity?


----------



## two sheds (Dec 8, 2020)

frogwoman said:


> Apart from Jews I don't think the antisemitism stuff had any more than a marginal impact on the average Tory voter except possibly to feed into a general story about his lack of patriotism tbh.



I think it had quite an effect on floating voters though. My neighbour (who is lovely but a Mail reader) hated Corbyn because of his antisemitism before the election.


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 8, 2020)

two sheds said:


> I've agreed that labour had (doubtless still has) a problem with antisemitism but the extent has been blown up by the media and the right of the party. So I've not been harping on and on that there was no problem. I think it's fair to point this out. And yes page 155 and this seems still to be disputed.


The whataboutery keeps being raised. Not always by you, but always.  And in many forms.  And you can’t even recognise them. You said yourself “I’ve never seen it asked before”.  But it’s relentless.  And it’s never an answer, excuse or mitigation, in any of its guises.

I have no interest in shaming any individuals on this thread. I don’t think that helps anyone. People make mistakes. All people. I’m not attacking you. I’m frustrated by your position.

“isn’t the revolutionary left as bad as Labour?”  Yes, and some sections considerably worse.  BUT THAT ISN’T A GOOD APOLOGY.

“I’m sorry I punched you, but at least I didn’t rape you and kill you”.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 8, 2020)

Again though, is there room for a thread on combatting antisemitism without focusing on just the Labour party because I don't think anyone here would be arguing with that.


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 8, 2020)

It’s a mistake we can all make


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 8, 2020)

two sheds said:


> Again though, is there room for a thread on combatting antisemitism without focusing on just the Labour party because I don't think anyone here would be arguing with that.


There is a thread about antisemitism elsewhere on the left.  

However if you’re wondering why it hasn’t got as many pages, part of that will be because the revolutionary left doesn’t have as many members or as much reach.  Not even close.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 8, 2020)

danny la rouge said:


> The whataboutery keeps being raised. Not always by you, but always.  And in many forms.  And you can’t even recognise them. You said yourself “I’ve never seen it asked before”.  But it’s relentless.  And it’s never an answer, excuse or mitigation, in any of its guises.
> 
> I have no interest in shaming any individuals on this thread. I don’t think that helps anyone. People make mistakes. All people. I’m not attacking you. I’m frustrated by your position.
> 
> ...



I've not seen someone ask the question I asked before. I appreciate your focus on the issues rather than the people, but I'm frustrated as well - like you say 155 pages and there's still people saying that all antisemitism in labour is being denied.

The other side to whataboutery is "He punched me". "Yes but you raped and killed him first " (yes, I know ...)

It's the relentless focus on antisemitism in Labour and magnifying it that I object to. Antisemitic opinions in Labour in that YouGov survey showed that antisemitic opinions by labour voters were less frequent than in the rest of the population.

I want to get rid of antisemitism too but I don't think we're going to do that by just focusing on Labour because that sets the left against the left. We need to focus on antisemitism in wider society - and _yes_ with Labour as an example but not as the only example. And yes you admit the problems on the left as you say - but then lets look broadly, not just focus on Labour.

But I'm going to walk the dog.


----------



## bimble (Dec 8, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> It’s a mistake we can all make View attachment 242365


whats the story there do you know? (he's locked his account straight after posting that sincere apology.


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 8, 2020)

two sheds said:


> lets look broadly, not just focus on Labour.


I’m sorry for my crimes, but they do have to be seen in the context of some _really bad_ crimes some big boys over there did.


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 8, 2020)

two sheds said:


> I think it had quite an effect on floating voters though. My neighbour (who is lovely but a Mail reader) hated Corbyn because of his antisemitism before the election.



It had some effect on left/liberal leaning people yes but I said 'the average Tory voter'. And don't forget there are plenty of people  who don't really care about Jews but more worried about him 'disrespecting the war dead' or associating  with terrorists or whatever.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 8, 2020)

killer b said:


> Regardless what the exact thing that has triggered the meeting/ motion / whatever, it dissolves into whataboutery, outright denialism & veiled antisemitism, just like these threads. That's the problem I'm talking about, the trigger to that happening is pretty irrelevant.



Its massively relevant 
Its exactly why the weaponisation of antisemitism is so disgraceful and damaging




bimble said:


> imo its much worse now, loads and loads of people who never had a problem with jews before, probably never even thought about them, now hold us responsible for the destruction of the corbyn project. thats what actually hurts.


Yes, agree, and who is to blame for that?
See above, and why it's so relevant


----------



## cantsin (Dec 8, 2020)

bimble said:


> Agree. imo its much worse now, loads and loads of people who never had a problem with jews before, probably never even thought about them, now hold us responsible for the destruction of the corbyn project. thats what actually hurts. And that's where Corb's statement could be said to be right, about the overblown media attention hurting jews. It’s just not what he meant.



can't speak for anyone else much, but amongst our local CLP left, the resentment is aimed squarely at Starmer and David Evans  at present (we've been banned by SW regional from even discussing their conduct at our only CLP meet for 9 months, this thurs - so resentment is at an all time high ) , and on a longer term basis, at the PLP trash who weaponised ( existing / real)  AS from the off,  mainly for their own, anti Corbyn ends.

Don't know where you get the ' loads and loads ' having ' a problem with jews' idea from, but do you mean from real life experience / real people, or the distorted , amplified, degraded version of everything that exists on social media ?

( On the other hand, I cldn't ever pretend that having the likes of vile bully Ian Austin, sex pest Jon Woodcock, or the laughable c*nt John Mann very noisily fighting my / or my peeps corner, purely for their own benefit ( and hats off, did that ever work out nicely : 3 peerages for 3 of the sleaziest also ran / non ents in the HoC   ) sounds like a particularly edifying idea tbh.)


----------



## Knotted (Dec 8, 2020)

danny la rouge said:


> I’m sorry for my crimes, but they do have to be seen in the context of some _really bad_ crimes some big boys over there did.



I remember Ian Brady trying to contextualise the extent of his crimes by pointing at the war in Iraq...


----------



## killer b (Dec 8, 2020)

It's fine bimble - turns out it's all been blown out of proportion by social media. In real life it isn't like that at all. Must be a relief for you to receive this welcome news.


----------



## cantsin (Dec 8, 2020)

killer b said:


> Regardless what the exact thing that has triggered the meeting/ motion / whatever,* it d*issolves into whataboutery, outright denialism & veiled antisemitism, just like these threads. That's the problem I'm talking about, the trigger to that happening is pretty irrelevant.



" it " being some archetypal stereotype of a CLP meeting that has developed in the 4 weeks since EHRC report, and that you have had lots of personal experience of  in that time ?


----------



## killer b (Dec 8, 2020)

cantsin said:


> " it " being some archetypal stereotype of a CLP meeting that has developed in the 4 weeks since EHRC report, and that you have had lots of personal experience of  in that time ?


'it' being 'any discussion of antisemitism in the labour party'


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 8, 2020)

Tbf 'the weaponisation of' doesn't really have an impact on my life tbh. I've not had to put up with it in jobs and that. I couldn't really care less, even if there was no 'weaponisation' it's not like the thing it's allegedly weaponising is going to magically get taken seriously. 

For there to  be weaponisation there needs to be something to weaponise. 

I think I'm done for today tbh


----------



## cantsin (Dec 8, 2020)

killer b said:


> It's fine bimble - turns out it's all been blown out of proportion by social media. In real life it isn't like that at all. Must be a relief for you to receive this welcome news.



if you look at Bimbles post, it starts with IMO, not IME, and so I felt justified in asking the question - but am sure she's happy to have the white knight gatekeeper on hand to shield her, full of the energy that the recent convert brings.


----------



## killer b (Dec 8, 2020)

The only thing I'm a recent convert to is Jeremy Corbyn being an actual racist - everything else I've been arguing consistently for 5 years at least. White Knight though, nice. 

TBF I'm at least partly motivated to stick at it today by wanting to show solidarity with bimble and frogwoman. Their points and experiences are being ignored, explained away and talked past in a way which is pretty gross.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 8, 2020)

danny la rouge said:


> I’m sorry for my crimes, but they do have to be seen in the context of some _really bad_ crimes some big boys over there did.



How do we prevent these crimes, including my own? No I only want to focus on _your_ crimes 

And yes there's a thread on antisemitism on the left and as you say the revolutionary left doesn’t have as many members or as much reach. But that doesn't work either because there's no even larger thread on antisemitism in the tory party - which has much much more power than Labour. 

The hatred for Labour and Corbyn seems to have spilled over and distorted this thread which seems to have become much more about kicking Corbyn. A thread about antisemitism generally - _including that in the Labour party_ - would be much more constructive and actually might achieve something. I'm not saying ignore it, but it needs to be put in context.


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 8, 2020)

bimble said:


> whats the story there do you know? (he's locked his account straight after posting that sincere apology.



think some very online bloke said some stupid things about another very online bloke who unfortunately for the first VOLB happened to be a QC


----------



## bimble (Dec 8, 2020)

Oh i missed the cantsin post will reply but out now in wellies


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 8, 2020)

Never mind


----------



## cantsin (Dec 8, 2020)

bimble said:


> Oh i missed the cantsin post will reply but out now in wellies



no hurry, nothing new (and anything involving wellies almost bound to be a more interesting / wholesome way of spending afternoon.)


----------



## two sheds (Dec 8, 2020)

frogwoman said:


> Tbf 'the weaponisation of' doesn't really have an impact on my life tbh. I've not had to put up with it in jobs and that. I couldn't really care less, even if there was no 'weaponisation' it's not like the thing it's allegedly weaponising is going to magically get taken seriously.
> 
> For there to  be weaponisation there needs to be something to weaponise.
> 
> I think I'm done for today tbh



But spreading it all over the papers for months on end was part of the weaponisation.

Sorry that I've not helped in all of this, Froggy.


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 8, 2020)

two sheds said:


> How do we prevent these crimes, including my own? No I only want to focus on _your_ crimes
> 
> And yes there's a thread on antisemitism on the left and as you say the revolutionary left doesn’t have as many members or as much reach. But that doesn't work either because there's no even larger thread on antisemitism in the tory party - which has much much more power than Labour.
> 
> The hatred for Labour and Corbyn seems to have spilled over and distorted this thread which seems to have become much more about kicking Corbyn. A thread about antisemitism generally - _including that in the Labour party_ - would be much more constructive and actually might achieve something. I'm not saying ignore it, but it needs to be put in context.


p156.


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 8, 2020)

two sheds said:


> But spreading it all over the papers for months on end was part of the weaponisation.
> 
> Sorry that I've not helped in all of this, Froggy.



Yeah no offence but you need to stop.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 8, 2020)

ok I'll put thread on ignore. It's become a car crash anyway.


----------



## killer b (Dec 8, 2020)

two sheds said:


> ok I'll put thread on ignore. It's become a car crash anyway.


You fucking crashed it ffs


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 8, 2020)

danny la rouge said:


> The Board of Deputies are conservative and reactionary.  This isn’t controversial.  They apply double standards. Also not controversial.



The 'contraversary' is the BoD have publically demanded that their 12 point pledges are adopted by the LP and alongside that are continuously making public demands that x, y & Z member/MP are investigated and disciplined. So whilst many are aware that the BoD do not speak for/represent _all_ Jewish people, they are the ones the LP leadership are openly responding to and 'working' with despite their 'conservative and reactionary' perspective. Meanwhile tweets and cosy photoshoots with Tory MPs/leadership, no comment given about the celebration of a known anti-semite Astor etc.. So the double standards being applied are relevant and it isn't whataboutery to notice that and comment on it IMO. The damage it is doing is clear. In the context of the wider societal discussion  clearly some people no longer believe the main aim is to stop anti-semitism in all it's forms because of those double standards. The fact the JC keeps getting sued for slander pieces and losing is another example. If the standards are not being applied evenly people will rightly ask why not? The focus is diverted from actual cases of anti-semitism and becomes one about power, who's perspective is being valued, who's interests are being served. Why and how.


----------



## campanula (Dec 8, 2020)

bimble said:


> Agree. imo its much worse now, loads and loads of people who never had a problem with jews before, probably never even thought about them, now hold us responsible for the destruction of the corbyn project. thats what actually hurts.


I think so, Bimble. Apols for this being my sole contribution to this thread because I am woefully confused. And extra apologies, but yeah, I have, I think, had some definite anti-semitic thoughts of exactly that nature. Along with allowing myself to be snared by some fucking personality shit which seems to stand in for actual ideology (in political life). I think I am getting a handle on it a bit more - and think this is possibly a good thing compared to my generally oblivious attitude, prior to the recent foregrounding of this issue. 
Going back to avoiding contentious threads I know nothing about but...solidarity.

orgs such as BoD, along with  various other 'community elders (religion)' and 'pillars of society' (business) always piss me off, tbh. Typical top-down, authoritarian rubbish where establishment twats get a hard-on acting as the authentic voice of entire classes of hugely heterogenous people. (The exact same wankers who ran my (previous) allotment soc.)


----------



## killer b (Dec 8, 2020)

campanula said:


> I think so, Bimble. Apols for this being my sole contribution to this thread because I am woefully confused. And extra apologies, but yeah, I have, I think, had some definite anti-semitic thoughts of exactly that nature. Along with allowing myself to be snared by some fucking personality shit which seems to stand in for actual ideology (in political life). I think I am getting a handle on it a bit more (and think this is possibly a good thing compared to my generally oblivious attitude, prior to the recent foregrounding of this issue.
> Going back to avoiding contentious threads I know nothing about but...solidarity.


you should stick around, we could do with a bit more of this kind of self reflection


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 8, 2020)

bimble said:


> Agree. imo its much worse now, loads and loads of people who never had a problem with jews before, probably never even thought about them, now hold us responsible for the destruction of the corbyn project. thats what actually hurts.


For example, the views i









						Jeremy Corbyn's time is up
					

I do. ah - the nec are his team, i see.




					www.urban75.net
				




And which does seem to be an undertone throughout this, funnily enough right from the start.   I’m exhausted by it; I hate to think how I’d feel if I was Jewish.


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 8, 2020)

campanula said:


> I think so, Bimble. Apols for this being my sole contribution to this thread because I am woefully confused. And extra apologies, but yeah, I have, I think, had some definite anti-semitic thoughts of exactly that nature. Along with allowing myself to be snared by some fucking personality shit which seems to stand in for actual ideology (in political life). I think I am getting a handle on it a bit more (and think this is possibly a good thing compared to my generally oblivious attitude, prior to the recent foregrounding of this issue.
> Going back to avoiding contentious threads I know nothing about but...solidarity.


KillerB is right. Don’t go.


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 8, 2020)

Rutita1 said:


> who's perspective is being valued, who's interests are being served. Why and how.


And what do you think the answers to your rhetorical questions are?


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 8, 2020)

Christ. Another day of my life frittered away on a thread about a party I left in the early 80s.


----------



## killer b (Dec 8, 2020)

danny la rouge said:


> For example, the views i
> 
> 
> 
> ...


yeah, I was having a look back at the early posts in this thread earlier and I was talking about this defensive flex from people with no previous in 2016. I was also being called 'jess phillips' for being critical of Ken Livingston


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 8, 2020)

The weaponisation discourse just reminds me of 'false accusations ruining men's lives!' a lot of the time tbh 

of course it happens. People make shit up about anything of course they do. but an awful lot of people are more upset about 'the weaponisation of antisemitism' than antisemitism itself.

I'd add btw that it was definitely a newsworthy story, the fact it was in the media isn't 'weaponisation' any more than the countless examples  of tory antisemitism reported in the media (including by the JC and similar)


----------



## bimble (Dec 8, 2020)

frogwoman said:


> The weaponisation discourse just reminds me of 'false accusations ruining men's lives!' a lot of the time tbh
> 
> of course it happens. People make shit up about anything of course they do. but an awful lot of people are more upset about 'the weaponisation of antisemitism' than antisemitism itself.
> 
> I'd add btw that it was definitely a newsworthy story, the fact it was in the media isn't 'weaponisation' any more than the countless examples  of tory antisemitism reported in the media (including by the JC and similar)



That's a really good analogy. 
The newspapers thing yes but at the same time when for months and months you had to see the bloody daily mail front page pretending to care a lot about antisemitism that was just all sorts of crap rolled into one.


----------



## Serge Forward (Dec 8, 2020)

two sheds said:


> You're happy with the double standards then?


Where's the double standards? You'll not find many anarchists and communists denying Marx or Bakunin at various points came out with anti-semitic stuff. There's no whataboutery there. However, plenty of Corbyites, etc are still in denial about anti-semitism in the Labour Party. Wait... I suppose that is a double standard then.


----------



## Knotted (Dec 8, 2020)

Wow you just whatabouted the whataboutery! I think you've just won the thread.


----------



## killer b (Dec 8, 2020)

No winners on this thread, only losers sorry.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 8, 2020)

So I see


----------



## bimble (Dec 8, 2020)

campanula said:


> I think so, Bimble. Apols for this being my sole contribution to this thread because I am woefully confused. And extra apologies, but yeah, I have, I think, had some definite anti-semitic thoughts of exactly that nature. Along with allowing myself to be snared by some fucking personality shit which seems to stand in for actual ideology (in political life). I think I am getting a handle on it a bit more - and think this is possibly a good thing compared to my generally oblivious attitude, prior to the recent foregrounding of this issue.
> Going back to avoiding contentious threads I know nothing about but...solidarity.
> 
> orgs such as BoD, along with  various other 'community elders (religion)' and 'pillars of society' (business) always piss me off, tbh. Typical top-down, authoritarian rubbish where establishment twats get a hard-on acting as the authentic voice of entire classes of hugely heterogenous people. (The exact same wankers who ran my (previous) allotment soc.)


Just want to say thank you for this post. The word brave always sounds stupid and condescending but the thought process that you went through to get to this realisation,  i don't know if you realise how rare and courageous it was. I think it's the gardening, makes people wise.


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 8, 2020)

Going to come in after everyone else to agree that we need more not less campanula oj this thread


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 8, 2020)

On all the threads to be honest


----------



## tim (Dec 8, 2020)

rummo said:


> 'Staetsky seems like a weird likudnik'
> 
> 
> In fairness, perhaps not everyone can be as free from prejudice as you.
> ...


Have you any idea how cuntish you sound? Seriously.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Dec 8, 2020)

Serge Forward said:


> Where's the double standards? You'll not find many anarchists and communists denying Marx or Bakunin at various points came out with anti-semitic stuff. There's no whataboutery there. However, plenty of Corbyites, etc are still in denial about anti-semitism in the Labour Party. Wait... I suppose that is a double standard then.


Big difference between individual political thinkers and organisers, whose political philosophies changed and developed over time, and a mass membership party like Labour. Bakunin's early pan-Slavism was very much at odds with his later anarchism, for example. But he was one individual. You can look at his written work and see how it changed. It can't really be argued with.
The Labour Party is made up of hundreds of thousands of individuals. I can't prove this, but I suspect that the numbers of LP members who adhere to a philosophy which is explicitly racist is vanishingly small. The impact of the Nazis in WW2 had such a profound impact on the left that there is no room for overt, public racism. There will be individuals with dangerous ideas, but not much more than that. I know quite a lot of my local Labour Party and I know that any expression of racism at LP meetings would get shouted down. 
And yet. At the last election and before, the main topic of conversation among right wingers around here was how the LP had become institutionally racist and anti Semitic. Never mind that they couldn't find any LP members locally to level the accusation at. The very fact that so many on the right of the party and so many outside the party were making the claim was good enough for them. Those who questioned whether this was true were 'defending the indefensible'. 
Nothing much has changed, except that the civil war within the party appears to be getting worse. And people on both sides of the argument seem to be getting on with each other rather less well than before.


----------



## redsquirrel (Dec 9, 2020)

What a fucking horror of a thread. danny la rouge nails it with post 4561, so there _should_ not be much more to say, sadly it still does not seem to have penetrated to some people


----------



## inva (Dec 9, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> The Labour Party is made up of hundreds of thousands of individuals. I can't prove this, but I suspect that the numbers of LP members who adhere to a philosophy which is explicitly racist is vanishingly small. The impact of the Nazis in WW2 had such a profound impact on the left that there is no room for overt, public racism. There will be individuals with dangerous ideas, but not much more than that. I know quite a lot of my local Labour Party and I know that any expression of racism at LP meetings would get shouted down.


With such a total lack of understanding of antisemitism on the left it's no wonder you haven't noticed any.


----------



## rummo (Dec 9, 2020)

tim said:


> Have you any idea how cuntish you sound? Seriously.




What an appallingly sexist, misogynistic and offensive choice of language.

You should be utterly ashamed of yourself.


----------



## bimble (Dec 9, 2020)

Individuals with dangerous ideas lol. Kevbad the Bad Can you give one example to help explain what sort of ideas you mean?


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 9, 2020)

Loads of people say 'Yeah but I've been a member of X for 20 million years and never seen any racism' - there's lots of stuff you wouldn't necessarily pick up on if you're not the member of a minority. Whether or not you've seen it is not proof of anything. When it was going on all these fucking guys were coming out with 'Yeah but I've been a member of Labour for 50 years and I've never seen any antisemitism' nobody cares, so what? So it doesn't exist? 


Kevbad the Bad said:


> Nothing much has changed, except that the civil war within the party appears to be getting worse. And people on both sides of the argument seem to be getting on with each other rather less well than before.


I wanted to pick up on this because it's kind of important. It was very clear to me before and after the election that a lot of people basically saw the whole thing in terms of 'the Labour civil war' and factionalism, and its remedy in terms of fixing the damage _to the labour party_. 'Oh why can't we all get on as before.' and yes, this also applies to parts of the labour right who made a huge show of opposing antisemitism in order to 'save the party' ie get it electable and take back control from corbyns faction again. Like is that really people's main priority when looking at this?

I don't think some people even considered the effect all this had on Jewish people at the time. I'm not even a labour member and it had a catastrophic effect on my mental health from mid 2018 to 2019, I fell out with people I'd previously thought were all right and lost masses of respect for others. And yes I did get antisemitic abuse from Corbyn supporters. I'm not the only one. If you're still seeing it in terms of a labour civil war think about how Jewish people outside the party will view all this for one second.


----------



## bimble (Dec 9, 2020)

Me too frogwoman. The lost friendships I mean, and the mental / emotional health. And I logged out of here for a year.


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## frogwoman (Dec 9, 2020)

bimble said:


> Individuals with dangerous ideas lol. Kevbad the Bad Can you give one example to help explain what sort of ideas you mean?


I dunno, how about the idea to paint a mural of a group of evil illuminati looking guys with hooked noses playing monopoly while everyone dies around them and the idea that it's good and a reasonable thing to draw a picture of. 'Seems legit.'


----------



## brogdale (Dec 9, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> What a fucking horror of a thread. danny la rouge nails it with post 4561, so there _should_ not be much more to say, sadly it still does not seem to have penetrated to some people


Whilst true, I genuinely think the thread has represented a learning curve for some posters.
Not afraid to say that hearing from those most affected by antisemitism on the left has helped me appreciate the issue with a little more clarity.


----------



## killer b (Dec 9, 2020)

frogwoman said:


> I don't think some people even considered the effect all this had on Jewish people at the time. I'm not even a labour member and it had a catastrophic effect on my mental health from mid 2018 to 2019, I fell out with people I'd previously thought were all right and lost masses of respect for others. And yes I did get antisemitic abuse from Corbyn supporters. I'm not the only one. If you're still seeing it in terms of a labour civil war think about how Jewish people outside the party will view all this for one second.


It doesn't escape my notice that you were absent from these boards for much of that period - that in itself should give us pause for thought.


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 9, 2020)

Or idk, how about the idea to post up holocaust denial posts on fb and accuse people who challenged it of 'screaming antisemitism' because you're pissed off at the board of fucking deputies. That happened to me BTW.


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## frogwoman (Dec 9, 2020)

I was fed up with posting here for a number of different reasons tbh but yeah wouldn't have felt comfortable.


----------



## rummo (Dec 9, 2020)

To be clear, because there were examples of anti Semitism on the left generally, and in the Labour Party, are we not allowed to point out that the extent and degree of anti Semitism was hugely exaggerated for political and factional reasons, in case this should upset some people?

Is that where we're at?


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 9, 2020)

> The impact of the Nazis in WW2 had such a profound impact on the left that there is no room for overt, public racism.



Lol. Oh mate.


----------



## Serge Forward (Dec 9, 2020)

rummo if by some upset people you mean Jews... Then again it's not just Jews who can't be doing with the anti-semitism bubbling up from the broader left with it's anti imperialism of fools.


----------



## killer b (Dec 9, 2020)

rummo said:


> To be clear, because there were examples of anti Semitism on the left generally, and in the Labour Party, are we not allowed to point out that the extent and degree of anti Semitism was hugely exaggerated for political and factional reasons, in case this should upset some people?
> 
> Is that where we're at?


two long-term jewish posters - friends of ours with decades of shared history - have posted _on this page_ in that they have not felt welcome in left wing circles over the past few years because of this debate. 

I've no idea who you are, and I think as a community, those of us with an actual stake in it need to prioritise their views over some no-mark blowhards who want to repeat the same tired bullshit that's wrecked the Labour Party over the last five years. So, yeah. Shut the fuck up.


----------



## rummo (Dec 9, 2020)

Serge Forward said:


> rummo if by some upset people you mean Jews... Then again it's not just Jews who can't be doing with the anti-semitism bubbling up from the broader left with it's anti imperialism of fools.




I suppose you could say that yes, some Jewish people. But then it's possible it could also upset non Jewish people as well.

But what of left wing non Zionist Jewish people who support Corbyn and who have been subjected to simply awful accusations of being self hating and far worse. Are their feelings to be disregarded? Is their some kind of hierarchy of whose feelings and sensitivities are to take precedence?

Or should we not just go after the truth and leave it at that?


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 9, 2020)

killer b said:


> two long-term jewish posters - friends of ours with decades of shared history - have posted _on this page_ in that they have not felt welcome in left wing circles over the past few years because of this debate.
> 
> I've no idea who you are, and I think as a community, those of us with an actual stake in it need to prioritise their views over some no-mark blowhards who want to repeat the same tired bullshit that's wrecked the Labour Party over the last five years. So, yeah. Shut the fuck up.


Agreed.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Dec 9, 2020)

bimble said:


> Individuals with dangerous ideas lol. Kevbad the Bad Can you give one example to help explain what sort of ideas you mean?


Ok. Bad phrasing. What I meant was that the Labour Party is a mass membership party with no screening process over people's views. In that context individuals can join up with racist, sexist, climate-Change-denying views and nothing much would stop them. If they never went to meetings or got involved in campaigning you would never know they were there. On the whole, if they were to express these views openly in meetings, they would be challenged, at the least.


----------



## rummo (Dec 9, 2020)

killer b said:


> two long-term jewish posters - friends of ours with decades of shared history - have posted _on this page_ in that they have not felt welcome in left wing circles over the past few years because of this debate.
> 
> I've no idea who you are, and I think as a community, those of us with an actual stake in it need to prioritise their views over some no-mark blowhards who want to repeat the same tired bullshit that's wrecked the Labour Party over the last five years. So, yeah. Shut the fuck up.



But Maureen Lipman felt unwelcome in left wing circles when Ed Milliband was the leader of the Labour Party, and said so at the time.

And her feelings are every bit as important as any one who posts on here.

So maybe the problem pre dates Corbyn.

And no, I will not shut the fuck up.


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 9, 2020)

rummo said:


> Or should we not just go after the truth and leave it at that?


The truth is Corbyn is antisemitic. Not “gas them” antisemitic but “Ooh, cool mural” antisemitic.

Which also answers Kevbad the Bad ’s question of how people can hide in constituency meetings. They aren’t saying “gas them”, they’re saying “cool mural”.


----------



## bimble (Dec 9, 2020)

yes. The problem pre dates corbyn. 
what is your hope rummo if you have one, from posting all this stuff, what would you like to see happen.


----------



## Serge Forward (Dec 9, 2020)

You're missing the point rummo of course there's been an attack from the right, but seriously, what do you expect? This is capitalism and that's what it does, and anything perceived to be the least threat to 'business as usual' will be met with maximum hostility... and that includes the mild-mannered slightly left capitalist Corbynism. But it really hasn't helped that there's this whopping big smoking gun of "anti-Zionists" and assorted red-brown dickheads who can't stop themselves from endlessly banging on about the Jews... ahem... sorry, the Zionists. If you don't know this, then just for one minute you need to bin off your rose tinted goggles sharpish. Sure, it's exaggerated, sure the right have made political capital out of it, but so fucking what. Sort yourself out.

"But the Tories and the far right are the real racists!" Of course they are. But we expect it from them twats. If you're on the left, there's no fucking excuse for dogwhistle racism and anti semitism. And the fact that the left really should know better kind of makes it worse.


----------



## rummo (Dec 9, 2020)

danny la rouge said:


> The truth is Corbyn is antisemitic.



Is it not strange then that there are so many people who have known in for decades, and who would be alert to such a thing, say otherwise, Michael Rosen, Miriam Margolyes, John Bercow, Geoffrey Alderman etc?


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 9, 2020)

rummo said:


> Is it not strange then that there are so many people who have known in for decades, and who would be alert to such a thing, say otherwise, Michael Rosen, Miriam Margolyes, John Bercow, Geoffrey Alderman etc?


No.


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 9, 2020)

Serge Forward said:


> You're missing the point rummo of course there's been an attack from the right, but seriously, what do you expect? This is capitalism and that's what it does, and anything perceived to be the least threat to 'business as usual' will be met with maximum hostility... and that includes the mild-mannered slightly left capitalist Corbynism. But it really hasn't helped that there's this whopping big smoking gun of "anti-Zionists" and assorted red-brown dickheads who can't stop themselves from endlessly banging on about the Jews... ahem... sorry, the Zionists. If you don't know this, then just for one minute you need to bin off your rose tinted goggles sharpish. Sure, it's exaggerated, sure the right have made political capital out of it, but so fucking what. Sort yourself out.
> 
> "But the Tories and the far right are the real racists!" Of course they are. But we expect it from them twats. If you're on the left, there's no fucking excuse for dogwhistle racism and anti semitism. And the fact that the left really should know better kind of makes it worse.


Exactly.


----------



## rummo (Dec 9, 2020)

bimble said:


> yes. The problem pre dates corbyn.
> what is your hope rummo if you have one, from posting all this stuff, what would you like to see happen.




Telling the truth is an end in itself.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 9, 2020)

rummo said:


> Is it not strange then that there are so many people who have known in for decades, and who would be alert to such a thing, say otherwise, Michael Rosen, Miriam Margolyes, John Bercow, Geoffrey Alderman etc?


John bercow famously never in the labour party tho as a former Monday clubber he'd know quite a bit about racism of all sorts


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 9, 2020)

rummo said:


> Telling the truth is an end in itself.


So now you've arrived at your destination what more have you got to offer?


----------



## rummo (Dec 9, 2020)

danny la rouge said:


> No.




It doesn't give you cause to think that maybe they're smarter than you, more perspicacious, more knowledgeable, have more insight  than you and that their collective opinion might therefore be more accurate, closer to the truth, than yours, which is based on, well what exactly is it based on, other than ignorance, and arrogance and prejudice?


----------



## rummo (Dec 9, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> John bercow famously never in the labour party tho as a former Monday clubber he'd know quite a bit about racism of all sorts




So no political allegiance to Corbyn, and therefore no reason not to accuse him of being anti Semitic then, is that what you are trying to say?

Or are we now so far down the rabbit hole that those who share his politics are lying because they share his politics, and those who are political opponents are lying because they are right wing?


----------



## rummo (Dec 9, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> So now you've arrived at your destination what more have you got to offer?



Do I need your permission to post on here? Is that how this works? Is there some kind of weird group think consensus that everyone has to conform to?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 9, 2020)

rummo said:


> Do I need your permission to post on here? Is that how this works? Is there some kind of weird group think consensus that everyone has to conform to?


1) if you did why should I give it? 2) sadly not 3) only about potatoes, hobnobs and lending money


----------



## killer b (Dec 9, 2020)

It's absolutely the case that antisemitism has existed on the left, and on the left of the Labour Party for much longer than the last five years: we've discussed it here, and it's specific forms - in the Palestinian solidarity movement, in the Anti-war movements and in the Occupy movement, mostly - many times over the years. 

It's also absolutely the case that it has been used for factional advantage by enemies of the left. One thing this has caused is the metastasization of the problem, as alluded to upthread: many people in the party with no real experience of or formed opinion of antisemitism previously were forced to take a position. Many of them chose badly, and many of our jewish friends no longer feel comfortable organising in the left as a result. 

So here we are. Regardless of the attacks from the right - which will always be there - we have a house to put in order, so that our friends once again feel they have a place.


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 9, 2020)

rummo said:


> 'Staetsky seems like a weird likudnik'
> 
> 
> In fairness, perhaps not everyone can be as free from prejudice as you.
> ...


Demanding people read an article across several threads by some creepy anti Palestinian racist (read the other articles/headlines on his site for instance) with an interest in such fascinating questions as 'why muslim arabs have so many children' in support of a view that 'this is what jews really think' about labour, then yeah of course I'm gonna have something to say about it.


----------



## Knotted (Dec 9, 2020)

rummo said:


> But Maureen Lipman felt unwelcome in left wing circles when Ed Milliband was the leader of the Labour Party, and said so at the time.



That's not what she said at the time. She left over recognising Palestine as a state. But if she had left because of antisemitism in the party, then what is your point?

Do you understand that you are conflating political fallout over Israel/Palestine with complaints about anti-Semitism? You know that thing the left were complaining about in the IHRA definition.

More importantly how do you think flinging Maureen bloody Lipman into the fray looks to Jews on here who have nothing to do with her or her politics?

The best thing you can do right now is take a break from this.


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 9, 2020)

rummo said:


> It doesn't give you cause to think that maybe they're smarter than you, more perspicacious, more knowledgeable, have more insight  than you and that their collective opinion might therefore be more accurate, closer to the truth, than yours, which is based on, well what exactly is it based on, other than ignorance, and arrogance and prejudice?


I think that many Jewish people brought up in Western cultures, especially older people, say the post war generation, and that includes people moving in left circles, grew up around low level prejudice that they came not to see because it was everywhere and their bigger problem was the more noticeable hate crimes. 

There’s a parallel here with African Americans who grew up in the pre civil rights explosion era.  Take Louis Armstrong. A particular hero of mine (and I have but few). He publicly denounced Eisenhower and Gov. Faubus, but because of the way of the society he grew up in overlooked lower level everyday prejudice he was enured to.  Things the following generation of African American jazz musicians thought he shouldn’t put up with.

So, no. I don’t think it’s surprising that some people don’t see it.

I know Corbyn is a long term anti racist campaigner.  He absolutely is.  That does not mean that he hasn’t imbibed antisemitic tropes. Many bona fide antiracists have. Including people who read and post on this thread.  And it’s our responsibility on the broader left to own up to it and do something about it.  Not moan  about how unfair it is and how much worse the right is.


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 9, 2020)

Well that and also if you spend your whole life challenging it you'd never get anything done. It's exhausting.


----------



## bimble (Dec 9, 2020)

rummo said:


> It doesn't give you cause to think that maybe they're smarter than you, more perspicacious, more knowledgeable, have more insight  than you and that their collective opinion might therefore be more accurate, closer to the truth, than yours, which is based on, well what exactly is it based on, other than ignorance, and arrogance and prejudice?


Lol


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Dec 9, 2020)

danny la rouge said:


> The truth is Corbyn is antisemitic. Not “gas them” antisemitic but “Ooh, cool mural” antisemitic.
> 
> Which also answers Kevbad the Bad ’s question of how people can hide in constituency meetings. They aren’t saying “gas them”, they’re saying “cool mural”.


Except they don't go round saying either one, by and large (I'm sure someone can find an example somewhere). The mural was crap but many people's initial reaction was to defend artistic expression, freedom from censorship etc. That was my first thought too. I didn't travel to London to look at it. I saw it on a phone and didn't see the detail properly. I changed my opinion later, thanks to a posting of the mural on this thread.  But that's how things work.


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 9, 2020)

Well there is, of course, one notable example


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Dec 9, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> 1) if you did why should I give it? 2) sadly not 3) only about potatoes, hobnobs and lending money


Just exactly what is your standpoint when it comes to hobnobs?


----------



## cantsin (Dec 9, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> Except they don't go round saying either one, by and large (I'm sure someone can find an example somewhere). The mural was crap but many people's initial reaction was to defend artistic expression, freedom from censorship etc. That was my first thought too. I didn't travel to London to look at it. I saw it on a phone and didn't see the detail properly. I changed my opinion later, thanks to a posting of the mural on this thread.  But that's how things work.



between 79 - 98 % of FB users access via mobile - chances of anyone on mobile seeing the detail in that mural ? somewhere between low > near impossible ( try it )

but sure,definitely worth basing the assessment of a 40 + year career of ceaseless anti racism campaigning around this 'issue' ( and there's no point peeps denying it, ' the mural' was central to all this as it ratcheted up )









						Facebook users reach by device 2021 | Statista
					

Facebook is the biggest social network worldwide, and its accessibility through multiple mobile apps as well as its mobile website plays a large part in its success.




					www.statista.com


----------



## killer b (Dec 9, 2020)

well, I'm glad to see we're making progress.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 9, 2020)

I wouldn't want to downplay how bad it was that Corbyn didn't recognise the problem with the mural. If you can't see something properly, don't comment on it until you can, and the devil isn't really in the detail of it anyway - the tropes are there very boldly. But he did apologise afterwards. Does anyone think it wasn't a genuine mistake. That matters, imo, because there is a huge difference between laughing at/admiring/praising antisemitic tropes because they are antisemitic tropes and praising a work because you haven't recognised those tropes. The former is antisemitism. The latter isn't necessarily.


----------



## killer b (Dec 9, 2020)

I first saw that mural on a phone too, when an anti-fracking activist friend of mine posted it on facebook. I got into an argument with him when I challenged him for posting racist shit. The eye/pyramid thing is pretty fucking prominent, you can't miss it even on a phone.


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 9, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> Except they don't go round saying either one, by and large (I'm sure someone can find an example somewhere).


This is an internet bulletin board. I sometimes use shorthand.  My point is that unnoticed tropes circulate.  I first noticed this long long before Corbyn, and it was something I felt I had to educate myself on too.  

The thing is, though, the left (and Labour only barely makes it into the very wide net this word throws, btw) has to stop starting its response with “except”.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 9, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> Just exactly what is your standpoint when it comes to hobnobs?


Here, help yourself


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 9, 2020)

I can't believe I'm still having this conversation tbh.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Dec 9, 2020)

danny la rouge said:


> This is an internet bulletin board. I sometimes use shorthand.  My point is that unnoticed tropes circulate.  I first noticed this long long before Corbyn, and it was something I felt I had to educate myself on too.
> 
> The thing is, though, the left (and Labour only barely makes it into the very wide net this word throws, btw) has to stop starting its response with “except”.


But...


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 9, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> But...


Good work comrade. 👍


----------



## cantsin (Dec 9, 2020)

killer b said:


> I first saw that mural on a phone too, when an anti-fracking activist friend of mine posted it on facebook. I got into an argument with him when I challenged him for posting racist shit. The eye/pyramid thing is pretty fucking prominent, you can't miss it even on a phone.



the eye / pyramid is standard NWO / Anon / post Occupy stuff, not my bag, but not what people are highlighting when they point to the mural as AS (as you must know )


----------



## killer b (Dec 9, 2020)

cantsin said:


> the eye / pyramid is standard NWO / Anon / post Occupy stuff, not my bag, but not what people are highlighting when they point to the mural as AS (as you must know )


It's a huge red flag for antisemitism, even if it sometimes appears in a non-antisemitic context (when??)


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 9, 2020)

Yeah it's the same shit I was banging on about a decade ago. Given an endorsement by the leadership of one of the main political parties in the uk. Standard.


----------



## cantsin (Dec 9, 2020)

( can't believe we're back on this part of the eternal carousel tbh, but we've had a CLP abandoned last night in SW, due to regional , + our local one cld be going the same way tmmrw night, so this stuff is very ...current for us ....won't be for long tho, no one's sticking around for this sh*te for much longer, and then everyone can go back to having two near political identical parties facing off at the next general election etc.)

 But I digress, back to pyramids and all seeing eye's n shit...


----------



## killer b (Dec 9, 2020)

cantsin said:


> ( can't believe we're back on this part of the eternal carousel tbh, but we've had a CLP abandoned last night in SW, due to regional , + our local one cld be going the same way tmmrw night, so this stuff is very ...current for us ....won't be for long tho, no one's sticking around for this sh*te for much longer, and then everyone can go back to having two near political identical parties facing off at the next general election etc )


maybe you could read and respond to some of the more substantive posts on the thread then, rather than picking up on fairly irrelevant detail that we covered in 2016?


----------



## cantsin (Dec 9, 2020)

killer b said:


> It's a huge red flag for antisemitism, even if it sometimes appears in a non-antisemitic context (when??)



erm, the US dollar ? ( am I missing something here ? )


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 9, 2020)

'Yeah well, it's standard' yeah it is and that's the problem isnt it!


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 9, 2020)

cantsin said:


> erm, the US dollar ? ( am I missing something here ? )


Yes.  But not maliciously. And you’re not alone: we’ve all missed something at one time or another. And that’s the problem.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 9, 2020)

cantsin said:


> ( can't believe we're back on this part of the eternal carousel tbh, but we've had a CLP abandoned last night in SW, due to regional , + our local one cld be going the same way tmmrw night, so this stuff is very ...current for us ....won't be for long tho, no one's sticking around for this sh*te for much longer, and then everyone can go back to having two near political identical parties facing off at the next general election etc.)
> 
> But I digress, back to pyramids and all seeing eye's n shit...


We had two near identical parties last time round only the lp had some pink icing on it.. And more overt anti-semitism


----------



## killer b (Dec 9, 2020)

cantsin said:


> ( am I missing something here ? )


yes, the racism.

Seriously. if you think the eye and the pyramid is just some standard, non-racist trope shared around in anticapitalist circles, it's no wonder you can't see the racists in the labour party.


----------



## belboid (Dec 9, 2020)

killer b said:


> It's a huge red flag for antisemitism, even if it sometimes appears in a non-antisemitic context (when??)


The illuminatus trilogy, all sorts of hippy spin offs, hawkwind t-shirts, grateful dead albums...certain hippies’ tattoos.   They were largely piss taking and satirical for years.   The extent to which they were common on the right was minuscule.


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 9, 2020)

cantsin said:


> can't believe we're back on this part of the eternal carousel tbh


I think we’re making progress, tbh. Two steps forward and one and a half back, but progress.  Pick up with where we’ve got to, and put your hurt aside for now.  We’ve moved beyond the denial stage.


----------



## cantsin (Dec 9, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> We had two near identical parties last time round only the lp had some pink icing on it



harsh ... red , at least ?


----------



## belboid (Dec 9, 2020)

danny la rouge said:


> Yes.  But not maliciously. And you’re not alone: we’ve all missed something at one time or another. And that’s the problem.


Indeed.  Just as it is with islamophobia.


----------



## killer b (Dec 9, 2020)

belboid said:


> The illuminatus trilogy, all sorts of hippy spin offs, hawkwind t-shirts, grateful dead albums...certain hippies’ tattoos.   They were largely piss taking and satirical for years.   The extent to which they were common on the right was minuscule.


all these are ancient. recent useage is almost 100% racist conspiracy theorists, and you know it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 9, 2020)

cantsin said:


> harsh ... red , at least ?


When the leader is to the right of Red Jim Callaghan they're pink at best


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 9, 2020)

belboid said:


> Indeed.  Just as it is with islamophobia.


With all prejudice. We live and learn. I am still working on my cultural sexism.


----------



## belboid (Dec 9, 2020)

killer b said:


> all these are ancient. recent useage is almost 100% racist conspiracy theorists, and you know it.


Ancient? The eighties aren’t ancient, man.  And yes, the last ten-twenty years is different but still relatively obscure. I don’t really expect everyone to keep up on the changing nature of esoteric symbology, tho I would have hoped/thought that someone like Corbyn would have.


----------



## killer b (Dec 9, 2020)

belboid said:


> The eighties aren’t ancient, man.


bless you.


----------



## belboid (Dec 9, 2020)

danny la rouge said:


> With all prejudice. We live and learn. I am still working on my cultural sexism.


And plenty are blind to their own prejudice because they can’t believe it of themselves ‘me? An anti-Semite/islamophobe? But I’ve been on anti racist denonstrations’


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 9, 2020)

killer b said:


> all these are ancient. recent useage is almost 100% racist conspiracy theorists, and you know it.


You recognised that as soon as you saw the mural. I did as well, fwiw. Corbyn didn't - and missed the other stuff as well, clearly. So what do you do with that? Do you believe him that he didn't see it? Do you accept his apology? What?


----------



## rekil (Dec 9, 2020)

mearone said:
			
		

> Racist people exist everywhere in every culture, like cockroaches they hide from the light & the 1% of them are in the darkest place of all. The same elite power brokers who lied to us about 911 & weapons of mass distraction, who decimated Iraq, Syria, Libya, who were complicit in the 2008 global financial crisis. They fooled us w/Bernie Sanders as hope only to see the party self-destruct TWICE removing any sense of choice, and as for Trump I believe he obviously works w/the Clinton Foundation as an actor to create division in American politics & the world as Giant Tech & Big Pharma become fully embedded within the elite banking cartel, the illuminati, the new technocrati - problem, reaction solution. Time to Wake Up #EarthPeople


I had a look at that prick's feeds and he's still flogging that mural. 1000% Icke loon. I'm not a neuroanatomist but I reckon if we kicked his head off and peered inside there'd be nothing but a big blob of congealed weed.


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 9, 2020)

The mural artist did an interview with notable Hawkwind fan David Icke. Not to single you out belboid but I've really had enough of this stuff.


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 9, 2020)

cantsin said:


> harsh ... red , at least ?


I know killer b will pick me up on this, but Corbyn’s Labour wasn’t nearly as left as he was made out by the Post Thatcherite consensus. Not in the context of the post war consensus. (Which, yes, I know it _wasn’t_ in the context of).

Before we stray off the point, though. It’s the way that legitimate criticism of the Israeli state can bleed into hyperbole that borrows from antisemitism that we need to work on in ourselves and in our own organisations.  If we don’t, what makes us any better than those we rightly denounce on the right?


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 9, 2020)

belboid said:


> And plenty are blind to their own prejudice because they can’t believe it of themselves ‘me? An anti-Semite/islamophobe? But I’ve been on anti racist denonstrations’


Exactly.


----------



## rummo (Dec 9, 2020)

That mural is supposedly about capitalism being to blame for slavery.

If so, then it's probably more likely the the eye of providence symbol is a reference to the US dollar bill than some whacky illuminati stuff.

Occams razor.

I have to say, my first reaction when I looked at that mural in any detail was that it was a mishmash of all sorts.

My second reaction was that the guy on the righthand side is the spitting image of Alf Garnet. Which was probably not the artist's intention.


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 9, 2020)

Transphobia and sexism as well tbh. If anyone pulls me up on something I'd like to think I'd at least consider it rather than go on about how i condemn all forms of racism and I've been a passionate anti-racist for 60 billion years.


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 9, 2020)

frogwoman said:


> The mural artist did an interview with notable Hawkwind fan David Icke. Not to single you out belboid but I've really had enough of this stuff.


Yup. There’s two huge threads on this still recycling stuff from page one. Let’s not.


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 9, 2020)

rummo said:


> That mural is supposedly about capitalism being to blame for slavery.
> 
> If so, then it's probably more likely the the eye of providence symbol is a reference to the US dollar bill than some whacky illuminati stuff.
> 
> ...


Oh for fuck sake. Seriously?  Grab a hold of yourself.


----------



## killer b (Dec 9, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> You recognised that as soon as you saw the mural. I did as well, fwiw. Corbyn didn't - and missed the other stuff as well, clearly. So what do you do with that? Do you believe him that he didn't see it? Do you accept his apology? What?


I did, grudgingly, accept his excuse in 2016. Partly I think because it suited me to. But the pattern of him... _overlooking_ things since then has led me to other conclusions.


----------



## killer b (Dec 9, 2020)

rummo said:


> That mural is supposedly about capitalism being to blame for slavery.
> 
> If so, then it's probably more likely the the eye of providence symbol is a reference to the US dollar bill than some whacky illuminati stuff.
> 
> ...


haha amazing. You absolute weapon.


----------



## belboid (Dec 9, 2020)

The mural artist is a fucking turd of the first order, there is no question of that.   But that doesn’t mean everyone immediately recognises a fairly obscure symbol on a bit of it.


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 9, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> You recognised that as soon as you saw the mural. I did as well, fwiw. Corbyn didn't - and missed the other stuff as well, clearly. So what do you do with that? Do you believe him that he didn't see it? Do you accept his apology? What?


The “not seeing” is a problem, wouldn’t you agree? From someone of his prominence in public politics.


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 9, 2020)

belboid said:


> The mural artist is a fucking turd of the first order, there is no question of that.   But that doesn’t mean everyone immediately recognises a fairly obscure symbol on a bit of it.


Could have been any group of people with cartoon hook noses.


----------



## belboid (Dec 9, 2020)

rummo said:


> That mural is supposedly about capitalism being to blame for slavery.
> 
> If so, then it's probably more likely the the eye of providence symbol is a reference to the US dollar bill than some whacky illuminati stuff.
> 
> ...


Thanks for clarifying that you’re not just someone old and a bit stuck in their ways, you are actually a complete prick.  Now fuck off.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 9, 2020)

danny la rouge said:


> The “not seeing” is a problem, wouldn’t you agree? From someone of his prominence in public politics.


But once it's happened, is it an unforgiveable error? If it's a forgiveable error, accepting a subsequent apology isn't the same as excusing it. 

tbh the eye symbol isn't even the worst of it for me. The caricature of a Jew is worse.


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 9, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> But once it's happened, is it an unforgiveable error? If it's a forgiveable error, accepting a subsequent apology isn't the same as excusing it.


It’s not just one thing, though. It’s an continuing pattern of things that slip past because everyone thinks they’re minor and “not as bad as the other side”.  It’s embarrassing. And it’s embarrassing we’re still going over ground that should have been cleared up. Can you imagine what it feels like as a Jewish person to live through this whirlwind? It must be soul sapping. These are their comrades.


----------



## killer b (Dec 9, 2020)

It was forgiven. and then the next time he wasn't able to see it, or just _had_ to include the 'and other forms of racism' bit, or whatever, I forgave it too. then the next time, and the next. Not anymore though.


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 9, 2020)

killer b said:


> It was forgiven. and then the next time he wasn't able to see it, or just _had_ to include the 'and other forms of racism' bit, or whatever, I forgave it too. then the next time, and the next. Not anymore though.


Yup. And my first reflex 5 years ago was to forgive and defend, even though I was last a member of the LPYS a lifetime ago.  Even though I had long ago recognised the problem the wider left had.  I’ve been going to Palestine solidarity demos since the early 80s.  The tropes are not new to me. And I still initially had the same reflex a lot of people in this thread _still_ can’t shake off.  How do you all think it reads?  How would it read if it was your minority caught up in this maelstrom?  

All it takes is human empathy and solidarity. That’s all it ever takes. Nobody’s demanding perfection. Perfection is impossible.


----------



## CNT36 (Dec 9, 2020)

Just before I quit the socials there was a very similar mural doing the rounds titled ambivalently enough that I thought it would be this one. The image was similar with people playing monopoly on peoples backs but they weren't racist caricatures and not an illuminati symbol in sight. Obviously plenty of people defending the original but a nice bit of mud in the water.


----------



## rummo (Dec 9, 2020)

belboid said:


> Thanks for clarifying that you’re not just someone old and a bit stuck in their ways, you are actually a complete prick.  Now fuck off.



I suppose it's being old that made me think that the guy on the right of the mural looked like Alf Garnet.



And no, I will not fuck off.


----------



## rummo (Dec 9, 2020)

danny la rouge said:


> Yup. And my first reflex 5 years ago was to forgive and defend, even though I was last a member of the LPYS a lifetime ago.  Even though I had long ago recognised the problem the wider left had.  I’ve been going to Palestine solidarity demos since the early 80s.  The tropes are not new to me. And I still initially had the same reflex a lot of people in this thread _still_ can’t shake off.  How do you all think it reads?  How would it read if it was your minority caught up in this maelstrom?
> 
> All it takes is human empathy and solidarity. That’s all it ever takes. Nobody’s demanding perfection. Perfection is impossible.




I've noticed you display  a lot of human empathy and solidarity on here for people who share your own views.


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 9, 2020)

rummo said:


> I've noticed you display  a lot of human empathy and solidarity on here for people who share your own views.


I’ve noticed you don’t.


----------



## JimW (Dec 9, 2020)

On top of it all, always strikes me as how questionable your politics are at an analytical level if you can't see it or want to deny it, you see what they mean about the socialism of fools.


----------



## killer b (Dec 9, 2020)

rummo said:


> I've noticed you display  a lot of human empathy and solidarity on here for people who share your own views.


Danny has shown you a lot more empathy and consideration than you deserve tbf. It's the rest of us that have been calling you a cunt.


----------



## rekil (Dec 9, 2020)

cantsin's post on the Beeley thread reminded me to check up on this banned-from-Thailand maniac who posted a pic of himself 'briefing' Corbyn on Syria a while back. 




Spoiler: joos


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 9, 2020)

rekil said:


> cantsin's post on the Beeley thread reminded me to check up on this banned-from-Thailand maniac who posted a pic of himself 'briefing' Corbyn on Syria a while back.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sounds delightful.


----------



## rummo (Dec 9, 2020)

frogwoman said:


> Demanding people read an article across several threads by some creepy anti Palestinian racist (read the other articles/headlines on his site for instance) with an interest in such fascinating questions as 'why muslim arabs have so many children' in support of a view that 'this is what jews really think' about labour, then yeah of course I'm gonna have something to say about it.




Actually my reference to him was more about the class composition of the British Jewish population.

I opined that it was now predominantly middle class and this was reflected in their voting patterns

My opinion was questioned and disputed and one numbnut went so far as to imply that this was playing into the anti Semitic trope of Jews controlling the world economy .


Staetsky's research confirmed my opinion. So for this you condemn him disparage him without any justification whatsoever.

That is prejudice, pure and simple.

My approach generally is to firstly find the facts and then form my opinion. Scientific method and all that. Staetsky does the same thing. Maybe that is the reason for your hostility.


----------



## killer b (Dec 9, 2020)

Occam's Razor at work here folks.


----------



## killer b (Dec 9, 2020)

Not sure you're supposed to use it to give yourself a frontal lobotomy though tbf


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 9, 2020)

rummo said:


> My approach generally is to firstly find the facts and then form my opinion. Scientific method and all that. Staetsky does the same thing. Maybe that is the reason for your hostility.


only generally? give us some examples of when you decide to form your opinion ahead of finding the facts


----------



## belboid (Dec 9, 2020)

rummo said:


> I suppose it's being old that made me think that the guy on the right of the mural looked like Alf Garnet.
> 
> 
> 
> And no, I will not fuck off.


We all know who Alf garnett is, but some of us can manage to actually take a second glance and realise that it isn’t him, it’s a bunch of anti-Semitic stereotypes.   The fact that you are still disputing this fact leads me (and everyone else) to surmise that you are not serious about understanding, let alone tackling, the changing nature of anti-semitism.


----------



## Flavour (Dec 9, 2020)

rummo said:


> Staetsky's research confirmed my opinion. So for this you condemn him disparage him without any justification whatsoever.



Seeing as you keep bringing Staetsky up as your rock-solid proof that you're definitely not a bit of a dick, allow me to quote your hero:



> ...hardcore prejudice towards Jews is rare, but encountering some degree of prejudice is much more common, and, as a result, that kind of prejudice is more visible and more impactful when Jewish lives are concerned. In many instances, those expressing such views may not even realise that a particular comment or remark might be experienced by Jews as offensive or upsetting, but they can impact significantly on the perceptions, sense of comfort and safety, and, ultimately, the quality of life for Jews in Great Britain.


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 9, 2020)

I think he understands antisemitism very well tbh


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 9, 2020)

frogwoman said:


> I think he understands antisemitism very well tbh


_He knows it when he sees it. Better than you do. Actually._


----------



## Plumdaff (Dec 9, 2020)

Why in holy fuck would anyone want to relitigate a shitty mural that every major player in this row on every possible 'side' agreed was antisemitic several years ago (that question is rhetorical, btw).

I've been reading these pages and thinking for the past few days. It seems to me that it's easy when you feel under siege to lapse into emotional reasoning; that has lead to the centering of the damage to the Labour left rather than to damage to Jewish people in my mind, and I think many minds, at times. That needs to stop.

But I still have no idea of any constructive way forward, given where we are. And how people still within the party can do that properly and also deal with what's happening now. I know lots of people on here don't give a shit about what happens to the Labour Party, and it's a position I'm not unsympathetic to, but many on here are members or care, and in that position, what to do?


----------



## killer b (Dec 9, 2020)

Flavour said:


> Seeing as you keep bringing Staetsky up as your rock-solid proof that you're definitely not a bit of a dick, allow me to quote your hero:


This is a good paper from a quick scan. Well worth reading.

They give some analysis by political persuasion, and their findings are worth chewing over:

_Thus, the very left-wing are, on the whole, no more antisemitic than the general population, but neither are they less antisemitic. In the context of the search for locations of heightened levels of antisemitism the latter point can easily be overlooked, but it is an important one. One might assume that those on the far left of the political spectrum would be more likely to hold antiracist ideas than the population as a whole, but we do not find this to be the case with respect to antisemitism _


----------



## belboid (Dec 9, 2020)

killer b said:


> This is a good paper from a quick scan. Well worth reading.
> 
> They give some analysis by political persuasion, and their findings are worth chewing over:
> 
> _Thus, the very left-wing are, on the whole, no more antisemitic than the general population, but neither are they less antisemitic. In the context of the search for locations of heightened levels of antisemitism the latter point can easily be overlooked, but it is an important one. One might assume that those on the far left of the political spectrum would be more likely to hold antiracist ideas than the population as a whole, but we do not find this to be the case with respect to antisemitism _


Most of what he says looks well researched and sane to me, tho I can’t blame anyone for dismissing anyone quoted by the knob who did.  And that article was far too brief and vague to seriously back up what he was saying.  

But, as with arguing whether Corbyn really had 6 or 10% of the Jewish vote in 2019, it misses the point, at best, or at worst, is used to justify a crude an old fashioned explicit racism.


----------



## killer b (Dec 9, 2020)

belboid said:


> Most of what he says looks well researched and sane to me, tho I can’t blame anyone for dismissing anyone quoted by the knob who did.  And that article was far too brief and vague to seriously back up what he was saying.
> 
> But, as with arguing whether Corbyn really had 6 or 10% of the Jewish vote in 2019, it misses the point, at best, or at worst, is used to justify a crude an old fashioned explicit racism.


there is a link in the article to a longer research paper sorry - you can download it here: https://www.jpr.org.uk/publication?id=9993


----------



## rummo (Dec 9, 2020)

So is it possible that  Staetsky is correct in his analysis of the class composition of the British Jewish population and how this influences voting patterns?


----------



## belboid (Dec 9, 2020)

rummo said:


> So is it possible that  Staetsky is correct in his analysis of the class composition of the British Jewish population and how this influences voting patterns?


It is almost entirely irrelevant to the discussion.  The class composition of the Jewish population didn’t change drastically after Corbyn became leader.


----------



## rummo (Dec 9, 2020)

frogwoman  

Is this paper the basis for your denunciation of Staetsky as  'a creepy anti Palestinian racist'?

https://www.academia.edu/38685806/F...tion_theory_Forthcoming_in_Population_Studies


----------



## rummo (Dec 9, 2020)

belboid said:


> It is almost entirely irrelevant to the discussion.  The class composition of the Jewish population didn’t change drastically after Corbyn became leader.




It is directly relevant to my point about the class composition of the British Jewish population and how it impacts on voting intentions, which was disputed by others.


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 9, 2020)

[/QUOTE]
Oh I dunno.





belboid said:


> Most of what he says looks well researched and sane to me, tho I can’t blame anyone for dismissing anyone quoted by the knob who did.  And that article was far too brief and vague to seriously back up what he was saying.
> 
> But, as with arguing whether Corbyn really had 6 or 10% of the Jewish vote in 2019, it misses the point, at best, or at worst, is used to justify a crude an old fashioned explicit racism.


Yeah I mean I'm willing to say i might have got it wrong but a brief look at some of what was on the website plus the bits quoted wasn't encouraging.


----------



## rummo (Dec 9, 2020)

'I'm willing to say i might have got it wrong'

##

Fair play to you for being prepared to at least entertain the possibility.

I do think you've got him wrong, at least from what I've read of his.


----------



## Knotted (Dec 9, 2020)

frogwoman said:


> I think he understands antisemitism very well tbh



I think so too. I also don't think he's a Corbyn/Labour stan (not that he's saying he is).


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 9, 2020)

rummo said:


> It is directly relevant to my point about the class composition of the British Jewish population and how it impacts on voting intentions, which was disputed by others.


I think you’re mistaken about what the dispute is over.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 9, 2020)

belboid said:


> Most of what he says looks well researched and sane to me, tho I can’t blame anyone for dismissing anyone quoted by the knob who did.  And that article was far too brief and vague to seriously back up what he was saying.
> 
> But, as with arguing whether Corbyn really had 6 or 10% of the Jewish vote in 2019, it misses the point, at best, or at worst, is used to justify a crude an old fashioned explicit racism.


tbh i am less than persuaded by things like this

that yer man says (https://www.jpr.org.uk/documents/JPR.2017.Antisemitism_in_contemporary_Great_Britain.pdf, p14)

it's like the bnp never took hundreds of thousands of votes, like the edl never happened, like fascists never killed an mp. seems to me that while the report may be a contribution, even a very useful contribution, it's not something to be blindly relied upon.


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 9, 2020)

Knotted said:


> I think so too. I also don't think he's a Corbyn/Labour stan (not that he's saying he is).



 very possibly.


----------



## Knotted (Dec 9, 2020)

I'm wary about talk of Jewish particularism as opposed to leftist universalism. I'm never quite sure what it means and failing to recognise Jewish particularism does not seem to be a characteristic of actual contemporary antisemitism (left wing or otherwise). I also don't care for the related theory that left wing antisemitism originated in Stalinist Russia.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 9, 2020)

Knotted said:


> I'm wary about talk of Jewish particularism as opposed to leftist universalism. I'm never quite sure what it means and failing to recognise Jewish particularism does not seem to be a characteristic of actual contemporary antisemitism (left wing or otherwise). I also don't care for the related theory that left wing antisemitism originated in Stalinist Russia.


another thing in that report was i couldn't find a definition of far left (or far right for that matter), despite the term being liberally sprinkled within it. for some jeremy corbyn would be far left, for others leninist or trotskyist organisations.


----------



## rummo (Dec 9, 2020)

belboid said:


> We all know who Alf garnett is, but some of us can manage to actually take a second glance and realise that it isn’t him, it’s a bunch of anti-Semitic stereotypes.   The fact that you are still disputing this fact leads me (and everyone else) to surmise that you are not serious about understanding, let alone tackling, the changing nature of anti-semitism.




I'm not suggesting it was Alf Garnet. Just that he looks like him. And that conditioned how I viewed the mural ie imagining what Alf Garnet would have said about it.

And while you may know who Alf Garnet is, you probably wouldn't appreciate the cultural impact of the character unless you were around when he first appeared

As I understand it I believe the artist denies any anti Semitic intent, and that the bankers were supposed to be caricatures of actual named 19th century individuals three of whom were Jewish and three who weren't.

So the idea that it is now an establish fact that the mural was anti Semitic is perhaps open to question. I think it more accurate to say that many people regarded it as anti Semitic.

Interesting take on it though from the JC.


'Mear One says his mural was about class, not race, but this is no excuse. Antisemitism has always had a left-wing version that fingered Jewish capitalists as the enemy of the good. Saying rich Jews are a class enemy is no less vile than saying they are a racial one.'


I've always taken the view that the rich are a class enemy, irrespective of whether they're Jewish or not, but I'm not sure that's the view that's being expressed there.


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 9, 2020)

Knotted the two aren't mutually exclusive as I've discovered but...yes.


----------



## belboid (Dec 9, 2020)

frogwoman said:


> Yeah I mean I'm willing to say i might have got it wrong but a brief look at some of what was on the website plus the bits quoted wasn't encouraging.


Absolutely, I can’t blame you at all, especially when presented in that way.  The amount of spurious bullshit pulled up and excused by ‘but he’s Jewish!’ is yet another infuriating and


But I can also well understand the views and frustrations of people - who do recognise and reject the use of such ‘tropes’ and don’t defend idiots like Greenstein - who are mad at the number of Jews being suspended for anti-semitism, or at them being barred from discussing or supporting the Big Bike Ride for Palestine, or at similar islamophobic or anti-traveller tropes and language being ignored, or many of the other ways the issue _is_ used dishonestly.

it is, in no small part, the nature of defeat. Looking at who to blame rather than what, differing factions trying to save/destroy any remnants of ‘corbynism’. Nothing short of hari kari will satisfy the right, the left have nowhere to go and not much to say.

I’m rambling now, sorry. At some point, relatively soon, there will need to be a proper response at how it should all have been dealt with, for now it is all still too painful and bitter and I don’t think we’ll seriously make any progress.

something something nature of reformism and the impossibility thereof


----------



## killer b (Dec 9, 2020)

Plumdaff said:


> I've been reading these pages and thinking for the past few days. It seems to me that it's easy when you feel under siege to lapse into emotional reasoning; that has lead to the centering of the damage to the Labour left rather than to damage to Jewish people in my mind, and I think many minds, at times. That needs to stop.
> 
> But I still have no idea of any constructive way forward, given where we are. And how people still within the party can do that properly and also deal with what's happening now. I know lots of people on here don't give a shit about what happens to the Labour Party, and it's a position I'm not unsympathetic to, but many on here are members or care, and in that position, what to do?


Following the collapse of the Corbyn leadership, this is a live problem for the entire wider left (it always was tbf) as activists abandon Labour and move on to other campaigns. A line of attack which has been so fruitful will doubtless be levelled against any and all movements that come next, and there needs to be a better response next time - both in making sure these kinds of currents aren't welcome, and faster action when they're discovered already lodged there. 

There was some noises made in recent years about political education on this topic, which is still badly needed (and as far as I'm aware beyond a few quite good videos last year, not much movement - covid has disrupted things though I suppose). 

As Danny said above though, there seems recently to be some movement here on Urban about it. One of the big psychological barriers to people being able to look at this clearly - the fact of Corbyn's leadership, and the need to defend it - is gone. I'm sure if there's movement here, there will be movement elsewhere as people let go of that. Keep chipping away.


----------



## belboid (Dec 9, 2020)

rummo said:


> I'm not suggesting it was Alf Garnet. Just that he looks like him. And that conditioned how I viewed the mural ie imagining what Alf Garnet would have said about it.
> 
> And while you may know who Alf Garnet is, you probably wouldn't appreciate the cultural impact of the character unless you were around when he first appeared
> 
> ...


I really cba to go through all the things that are wrong with that fucking mural yet again.   All I would say is - do you not think we have already discussed it at length? Maybe have a look back over the thread (or some of the others) to see how your argument has been made several times before.

consider, for a second, how arrogant it looks to come in to a long, complex, discussion, just to repeat some rote statement that has already been well covered.   Consider that and you’ll get one of the reasons why people are giving you such short shrift.


----------



## Knotted (Dec 9, 2020)

rummo said:


> I'm not suggesting it was Alf Garnet. Just that he looks like him. And that conditioned how I viewed the mural ie imagining what Alf Garnet would have said about it.
> 
> And while you may know who Alf Garnet is, you probably wouldn't appreciate the cultural impact of the character unless you were around when he first appeared



This stuff is shits and giggles. Was doing a similar thing when butchers asked him whether he disputed what Corbyn said. Fuck this guy.


----------



## Knotted (Dec 9, 2020)

belboid said:


> I really cba to go through all the things that are wrong with that fucking mural yet again.   All I would say is - do you not think we have already discussed it at length? Maybe have a look back over the thread (or some of the others) to see how your argument has been made several times before.
> 
> consider, for a second, how arrogant it looks to come in to a long, complex, discussion, just to repeat some rote statement that has already been well covered.   Consider that and you’ll get one of the reasons why people are giving you such short shrift.



TBH waffling on about your _first reaction_ _four years later_ and then waffling on about Alf Garnett isn't even repeating a rote statement. It's deliberate time wasting and a declaration that he just doesn't give a shit about antisemitism anyway. Not blind to it, he just doesn't care. Fuck this guy.


----------



## killer b (Dec 9, 2020)

If there's one thing we can all get behind, it's surely _Fuck This Guy._


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 9, 2020)

rummo said:


> I'm not suggesting it was Alf Garnet. Just that he looks like him. And that conditioned how I viewed the mural ie imagining what Alf Garnet would have said about it.
> 
> And while you may know who Alf Garnet is, you probably wouldn't appreciate the cultural impact of the character unless you were around when he first appeared
> 
> ...


if you knew anything about alf garnett you'd surely know how to spell his name


----------



## rummo (Dec 9, 2020)

belboid said:


> I really cba to go through all the things that are wrong with that fucking mural yet again.   All I would say is - do you not think we have already discussed it at length? Maybe have a look back over the thread (or some of the others) to see how your argument has been made several times before.
> 
> consider, for a second, how arrogant it looks to come in to a long, complex, discussion, just to repeat some rote statement that has already been well covered.   Consider that and you’ll get one of the reasons why people are giving you such short shrift.




Please accept my apologies for interrupting your private discussion.

Obviously I've mistakenly thought this was a public forum.

That mural is of next to no importance in itself though the reaction to it and how one view  has become the only acceptable dogma is interesting.

There's clearly a propensity on here towards groupthink which maybe suggests that you could do with some freshening up.


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 9, 2020)

I don't give a fuck about john mann or any of those. I've got nothing to do with it. For what it's worth I think those guys have acted appallingly, and their main aims have transparently been just to get their faction back in and 'save the party'. Some of their statements before and since prove they don't give a fuck. 

It would be nice if we could have our experiences listened to without having to discuss why Ian Austin and John Mann are awful and wrong first though. I could provide a list of incidents I've directly experienced and none of it had anything to do with john mann.


----------



## JimW (Dec 9, 2020)

rummo said:


> here's clearly a propensity on here towards groupthink


The perennial bleat of the man so plainly wrong even a set of diverse posters all share the same opinion of his bullshit.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 9, 2020)

JimW said:


> The perennial bleat of the man so plainly wrong even a set of diverse posters all share the same opinion of his bullshit.


more of a whine than a bleat


----------



## belboid (Dec 9, 2020)

rummo said:


> Please accept my apologies for interrupting your private discussion.
> 
> Obviously I've mistakenly thought this was a public forum.
> 
> ...


lol, you have no idea.   But you’re also just coming in and repeating tedious old shite, that everyone else on here has already discussed ad infinitum.  If you’re think you simply repeating it will be of any value, you’re more than a tad arrogant.   You don’t freshen things up by adding stale ingredients.


----------



## bimble (Dec 9, 2020)

Just clicked on your name rummo and it looks like about 95% of your posts since you joined this website are about jews & antisemitism. If there’s a point that you want to get across, about this whole subject that’s clearly massively important to you, the key Truth that you want everyone to understand, can you say what it is?


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 9, 2020)

bimble said:


> Just clicked on your name rummo and it looks like about 95% of your posts since you joined this website are about jews & antisemitism. If there’s a point that you want to get across, about this whole subject that’s clearly massively important to you, the key Truth that you want everyone to understand, can you say what it is?


(((Connect the dots)))


----------



## rummo (Dec 9, 2020)

I've found the reaction to  Staetsky to be interesting.

Posters who clearly knew absolutely nothing about him or his work piling in to dismiss and insult him.

Likewise Stephen Solley.

Fascinating.


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 9, 2020)

Does it start with n and end with t with the letters s and c somewhere as well?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 9, 2020)

frogwoman said:


> Does it start with n and end with t with the letters s and c somewhere as well?


a? i i!


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 9, 2020)

rummo said:


> There's clearly a propensity on here towards groupthink which maybe suggests that you could do with some freshening up


You think so?  Remember when those soldiers were using a Corbyn picture for target practice? I had an exchange with a long term poster - Sasaferrato - who assumed my criticism of those boneheads meant I was a Corbyn fan. He couldn’t see that serving soldiers shooting a likeness of the leader of the opposition (whoever that might be) was something to be concerned about.  

You haven’t bothered finding out about us. But you seem very, very interested in the Jews.  Which is, you know, a bit weird.  Try widening your interests.  We also discuss the Wire.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 9, 2020)

danny la rouge said:


> You think so?  Remember when those soldiers were using a Corbyn picture for target practice? I had an exchange with a long term poster - Sasaferrato - who assumed my criticism of those boneheads meant I was a Corbyn fan. He couldn’t see that serving soldiers shooting a likeness of the leader of the opposition (whoever that might be) was something to be concerned about.
> 
> You haven’t bothered finding out about us. But you seem very, very interested in the Jews.  Which is, you know, a bit weird.  Try widening your interests.  We also discuss the Wire.


and kittens


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 9, 2020)

McNulty did have a habit of calling lawyers a ‘twisted little tribe’


----------



## Knotted (Dec 9, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> more of a whine than a bleat



More of a "please waste more time on me" than a whine. Fuck this guy.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 9, 2020)

Knotted said:


> More of a "please waste more time on me" than a whine. Fuck this guy.


----------



## rummo (Dec 9, 2020)

danny la rouge said:


> You think so?  Remember when those soldiers were using a Corbyn picture for target practice? I had an exchange with a long term poster - Sasaferrato - who assumed my criticism of those boneheads meant I was a Corbyn fan. He couldn’t see that serving soldiers shooting a likeness of the leader of the opposition (whoever that might be) was something to be concerned about.
> 
> You haven’t bothered finding out about us. But you seem very, very interested in the Jews.  Which is, you know, a bit weird.  Try widening your interests.  We also discuss the Wire.




No, what interests me is not 'the Jews,' but the weaponisation of anti Semitism and why it is happening, and why non Zionist Jews are being treated the way they are.

Which is not, you know, a bit weird.


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 9, 2020)

rummo said:


> No, what interests me is not 'the Jews,' but the weaponisation of anti Semitism and why it is happening, and why non Zionist Jews are being treated the way they are.
> 
> Which is not, you know, a bit weird.


RTFM, as they used to say.


----------



## belboid (Dec 9, 2020)

I often wonder why people weaponise things that are handed to them on a plate as potential weapons.


----------



## rummo (Dec 9, 2020)

belboid said:


> I often wonder why people weaponise things that are handed to them on a plate as potential weapons.



But not in the Tory Party though?

Is that not odd?


----------



## bimble (Dec 9, 2020)

For someone so obsessed rummo you haven’t got a clue. If you had to explain what the difference is between a Zionist Jew (evil) and a non Zionist Jew (good) what would you even say?
 Do they have to join in ‘from the river to the sea’ ? Do they have to think that boycotting all cultural exchange is a great idea? 
 I’m the kind of Jew for instance who at the most recent demonstration against the kids shot in Gaza stood there on my own with ranting loons around me talking absolute poisonous idiocy about jews & corbyn and it made me totally despair of ever having a safe & half principled place to stand. Does that make me the right or wrong kind or are you just a bit fucking simple.


----------



## belboid (Dec 9, 2020)

rummo said:


> But not in the Tory Party though?
> 
> Is that not odd?


and now your not just repeating eighteen months ago, you're repeating yourself.

No, it isn't at all odd.  They're tories, being racist is part of the job description.


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 9, 2020)

I’m a non-Zionist Jew and JLM gave me a free ticket to their annual conference


----------



## kebabking (Dec 9, 2020)

rummo said:


> But not in the Tory Party though?
> 
> Is that not odd?



Being a bastard while a member of the Bastard Party isn't a problem.

Being a bastard while a member of the Not-a-Bastard Party is a problem.

I'm somewhat at a loss as to why this should be so difficult for you to grasp. (Of course, I'm not, I understand _exactly _why you say the things you say...)


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 9, 2020)

bimble said:


> Just clicked on your name rummo and it looks like about 95% of your posts since you joined this website are about jews & antisemitism. If there’s a point that you want to get across, about this whole subject that’s clearly massively important to you, the key Truth that you want everyone to understand, can you say what it is?



rummo


----------



## killer b (Dec 9, 2020)

I'd happily weaponise racism in the Conservative Party against them, given the chance tbf. That isn't possible for a multitude of reasons which_ just aren't fair_, but which also have zero bearing on whether we have a moral - and strategic - duty to deal with racism in our own ranks.


----------



## rummo (Dec 9, 2020)

belboid said:


> and now your not just repeating eighteen months ago, you're repeating yourself.
> 
> No, it isn't at all odd.  They're tories, being racist is part of the job description.




So Jewish members, or supporters,  of the Tory Party who experience or are aware of anti Semitism within the Tory Party say nothing about it because they are also racists?

Is it as simple as that?

And does that then not mean that those Jewish people are not just racists but also anti Semites?


----------



## Knotted (Dec 9, 2020)

If you look at rummo's posts you will not find any great interest in the Labour Party or the left, still less on eg. Israel/Palestine. He's very consistent it's about the weaponisation of antisemitism and when he's bolder it's explicitly about Jews weaponising antisemitism. There's nothing else there and he's not interested in listening. He's pushing a line because he thinks it's his way in here. He's not even a good representation of a broader problem. Once more - fuck this guy.


----------



## bimble (Dec 9, 2020)

rummo said:


> So Jewish members, or supporters,  of the Tory Party who experience or are aware of anti Semitism within the Tory Party say nothing about it because they are also racists?
> 
> Is it as simple as that?
> 
> And does that then not mean that those Jewish people are not just racists but also anti Semites?


We expect it from them you twat. That is all. You think jews are surprised by the standard issue antisemitism that comes from the same people who in general hate foreigners immigrants and anyone who doesn't read the telegraph? Grow up.
A jew in this country (or one like me, normal state schools etc) learns early that in general its best to keep your head down about the whole being a jew thing. This is normal.
The normal tory version shows up in stupid boring ways like the red trousered old man whose christmas lunch i was invited to a few years ago who'd never met a jew before and said to me 'i have a lot of respect for you people,  good business sense'. That was meant to be a compliment i think. The lunch was 2 kinds of pork.  
We just hope for something better from people who describe themselves as lifelong anti racists.


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 9, 2020)

I've had the 'you people are hard workers and good at business' as well. So good at business I was on a temp contract for £8ph.


----------



## bimble (Dec 9, 2020)

Thing is that stupid fart of a tory didn't upset me at all, i just found the whole day funny. Because he's just an idiot, in his stupid massive house with a double sized fridge but not a single book in the whole place, so he was not someone whose bigotry either surprised or hurt me. I've met a few like that, doesn't hurt at all.


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 9, 2020)

I wonder if it was the same guy.


----------



## bimble (Dec 9, 2020)

can we name and shame ? I do not think he'll be a member of urban.


----------



## rummo (Dec 9, 2020)

Knotted said:


> If you look at rummo's posts you will not find any great interest in the Labour Party or the left, still less on eg. Israel/Palestine. He's very consistent it's about the weaponisation of antisemitism and when he's bolder it's explicitly about Jews weaponising antisemitism. There's nothing else there and he's not interested in listening. He's pushing a line because he thinks it's his way in here. He's not even a good representation of a broader problem. Once more - fuck this guy.




No, it's about weaponisation of anti Semitism by everyone who does it, not just when it's done by Jews.

You may have got that impression because the only example I gave was Mirwich accusing Solley of anti Semitism, which I used because (a) it's pretty incontrovertible and (b) it would cause cause most people to wonder what was actually going on.

I'm not pushing a line.

And you flatter yourself by thinking I want 'in here,' whatever than means.


----------



## killer b (Dec 9, 2020)

You've shat your pants Rummo, no-one's buying it. Fuck off.


----------



## kebabking (Dec 9, 2020)

rummo said:


> ...And you flatter yourself by thinking I want 'in here,' whatever than means.



you seem singularly bad at not wanting to be here...


----------



## Knotted (Dec 9, 2020)

You keep going on about Solley


rummo said:


> No, it's about weaponisation of anti Semitism by everyone who does it, not just when it's done by Jews.
> 
> You may have got that impression because the only example I gave was Mirwich accusing Solley of anti Semitism, which I used because (a) it's pretty incontrovertible and (b) it would cause cause most people to wonder what was actually going on.
> 
> ...



It's almost as if the Sollley/Mirwich case is the one you read up on in preparation.


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 9, 2020)

bimble said:


> can we name and shame ? I do not think he'll be a member of urban.


I've forgotten his name! Peter something I think. To be fair he was a tutor where i worked at the 'college' for rich kids from overseas which essentially existed to scam them out of their money. That was also the job where I was asked to commit fraud and where the boss hid the key in his pocket to stop someone from walking off the job.


----------



## killer b (Dec 9, 2020)

Knotted said:


> It's almost as if the Sollley/Mirwich case is the one you read up on in preparation.


I think you're barking up the wrong tree tbh, this guy is for real sadly. plenty of fuckwits just like him about.


----------



## rummo (Dec 9, 2020)

kebabking said:


> Being a bastard while a member of the Bastard Party isn't a problem.
> 
> Being a bastard while a member of the Not-a-Bastard Party is a problem.
> 
> I'm somewhat at a loss as to why this should be so difficult for you to grasp. (Of course, I'm not, I understand _exactly _why you say the things you say...)




I just find it odd though that while those organisations that are generally regarded as speaking for or representing the British  Jewish population have been very vocal in their criticisms of the Labour Party, no such criticism is made of the Tory Party.

And while i understand that Jewish Labour supporters would say 'well those cunts in the fucking Tory Party are all fucking racist twats so what the fuck do you expect?' I wonder why they don't take issue with the one sided approach of those organisations.


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 9, 2020)

rummo said:


> it would cause cause most people to wonder what was actually going on.


You're no doubt itching to enlighten us.  Although, frankly, I'm more interested in Peter and his red trousers.


----------



## bimble (Dec 9, 2020)

frogwoman said:


> I've forgotten his name! Peter something I think. To be fair he was a tutor where i worked at the 'college' for rich kids from overseas which essentially existed to scam them out of their money. That was also the job where I was asked to commit fraud and where the boss hid the key in his pocket to stop someone from walking off the job.


ok not the same red trousered twat. This one was not a tutor of anything at all apart from maybe his miserable dog.


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 9, 2020)

rummo said:


> I wonder why they don't take issue with the one sided approach of those organisations.


You keep wondering these things aloud.  I wonder why?


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 9, 2020)

bimble said:


> ok not the same red trousered twat. This one was not a tutor of anything at all apart from maybe his miserable dog.


Poor dog


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 9, 2020)

rummo said:


> I just find it odd though that while those organisations that are generally regarded as speaking for or representing the British  Jewish population have been very vocal in their criticisms of the Labour Party, no such criticism is made of the Tory Party.
> 
> And while i understand that Jewish Labour supporters would say 'well those cunts in the fucking Tory Party are all fucking racist twats so what the fuck do you expect?' I wonder why they don't take issue with the one sided approach of those organisations.


this thread is titled 'labour & anti-semitism'. why don't you start a thread along the lines of 'tories & anti-semitism'?


----------



## rummo (Dec 9, 2020)

danny la rouge said:


> You keep wondering these things aloud.  I wonder why?




It's called questioning things. It's how you learn and develop. You should give it a try. You're never too old.


----------



## kebabking (Dec 9, 2020)

_just asking questions...._


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 9, 2020)

rummo said:


> It's called questioning things. It's how you learn and develop. You should give it a try. You're never too old.


And do you ever answer things?


----------



## bimble (Dec 9, 2020)

rummo said:


> I just find it odd though that while those organisations that are generally regarded as speaking for or representing the British  Jewish population have been very vocal in their criticisms of the Labour Party, no such criticism is made of the Tory Party.
> 
> And while i understand that Jewish Labour supporters would say 'well those cunts in the fucking Tory Party are all fucking racist twats so what the fuck do you expect?' I wonder why they don't take issue with the one sided approach of those organisations.


I know this one! Is it cos Jews love money and so they hate Socialism and Jeremy?
Fuck the BOD tbh (just speaking for myself here) but what is your actual point? 
You have had it explained to you that nothing else is expected from the tory party about 17 times now.


----------



## bimble (Dec 9, 2020)

danny la rouge said:


> And do you ever answer things?


He's a massive noisy coward. So no.


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 9, 2020)

rummo said:


> it would cause cause most people to wonder what was actually going on.





rummo said:


> It's called questioning things. It's how you learn and develop. You should give it a try. You're never too old.


We have this picture of you, wide eyed, muttering aloud:

_Questioning. Questioning. Questioning.  Wondering.  Wondering. Wondering._


----------



## bimble (Dec 9, 2020)

danny la rouge said:


> We have this picture of you, wide eyed, muttering aloud:
> 
> _Questioning. Questioning. Questioning.  Wondering.  Wondering. Wondering._


Genuinely curious. Seeking new information. warms the cockles it does.


----------



## rekil (Dec 9, 2020)

rummo said:


> I'm not pushing a line.


Your line is that loon iconography, created by people who believe the world is run by a secret cabal of shapeshifting lizard joos no less, is not objectionable, and to argue that in fact there should be a bare minimum of zero tolerance towards such toxic cuntishness and its progenitors is 'dogma'.


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 9, 2020)

bimble said:


> Genuinely curious. Seeking new information. warms the cockles it does.


Like an inquisitive roomba.

_Wondering.  Wondering.  Wondering._


----------



## bimble (Dec 9, 2020)

I can't figure out what motivates a person like this tbh. What is the animus here?

Is it that rummo really wanted JC to be pm (and thinks that jews crying wolf  and lying about antisemitism in order to pay less tax caused us to have this shitshow of a government instead) or is it something else entirely, more specialist stuff.

rummo ?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 9, 2020)

danny la rouge said:


> We have this picture of you, wide eyed, muttering aloud:
> 
> _Questioning. Questioning. Questioning.  Wondering.  Wondering. Wondering._


more like _preciousss_


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 9, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> more like _preciousss_


I recognise that as a Tolkien reference.  

That’s it.  I’m not a fan, so I don’t have an inkling what you mean. 😐


----------



## bimble (Dec 9, 2020)

danny la rouge said:


> Like an inquisitive roomba.
> 
> _Wondering.  Wondering.  Wondering._


You haven't replaced the noble Henry who you failed to appreciate with one of those abominations have you?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 9, 2020)

danny la rouge said:


> I recognise that as a Tolkien reference.
> 
> That’s it.  I’m not a fan, so I don’t have an inkling what you mean. 😐





> Deep down here by the dark water lived old Gollum, a small slimy creature. ... “Bless us and splash us, my precioussss! I guess it’s a choice feast; at least a tasty morsel it’d make us, gollum!” And when he said gollum he made a horrible swallowing noise in his throat. That is how he got his name, though he always called himself ‘my precious’.


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 9, 2020)

bimble said:


> You haven't replaced the noble Henry who you failed to appreciate with one of those abominations have you?


No. I got a Shark. Henry went to the British Heart Foundation. We couldn’t have a roomba: the floor has too many things on it.


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 9, 2020)

I know. I just wanted to say inkling.


----------



## bimble (Dec 9, 2020)

I can't believe you'd choose a product called a Shark, all aggressive angles it is too, over the noble rotund Henry.


----------



## Knotted (Dec 9, 2020)

killer b said:


> I think you're barking up the wrong tree tbh, this guy is for real sadly. plenty of fuckwits just like him about.



I think he's for real as well, but I sense he has a game plan and I think he's probably worse than he appears to be. I see him as sidling up to lefties/labourites and saying, "I hear you've got a bit of a problem with... people … weaponizing antisemitism." I don't sense that he's someone who has been involved even tangentially in the faction fights in the LP, and let's be clear - he isn't even claiming to have been. I could well be wrong of course, but there is a possibility that an out and out fascist has sneaked onto the boards where personal stuff is getting talked about.

But in any case I think we agree that he isn't listening and he's just repeating himself and there's no point wasting time on him.


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 9, 2020)

bimble said:


> I can't believe you'd choose a product called a Shark, all aggressive angles it is too, over the noble rotund Henry.


It gave me trouble to begin with. You might have been on sabbatical.  I’ll find the thread.  Perfect storm of my resistance to change, paranoia and technophobia.


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 9, 2020)

Here: Very dull hoover thread


----------



## bimble (Dec 9, 2020)

danny la rouge said:


> Here: Very dull hoover thread


i see. I am sorry for your troubles. But hopefully the Henry has found a good home now, where he will be appreciated for the stoic lifetime companion that he is.


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 9, 2020)

bimble said:


> i see. I am sorry for your troubles. But hopefully the Henry has found a good home now, where he will be appreciated for the stoic lifetime companion that he is.


Read on. There’s a middle and an end too...


----------



## killer b (Dec 9, 2020)

Imagine fucking it up so badly on a messageboard that what people were wondering about you was if you were just a racist crank, or actually a full on fascist.


----------



## bimble (Dec 9, 2020)

and yet. If you click on his profile Rummo's a hit around here apparently. 



Which is kind of interesting. If you WERE a proper fascist shithead and wanted a handy little crowbar, this ('weaponsisation") would be the perfect tool.


----------



## belboid (Dec 9, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


>


grrr, you've sent me down a Golem/gollum rabbit-hole


----------



## killer b (Dec 9, 2020)

bimble said:


> and yet. If you click on rummo's profile he's Rummo's a hit apparently.
> 
> View attachment 242550


I've been clocking who liked his posts for further investigation. Doesn't seem to have happened much lately tho.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 9, 2020)

bimble said:


> and yet. If you click on rummo's profile he's Rummo's a hit apparently.
> 
> View attachment 242550


These stats have a bit of a problem - beyond the fact that posting pics of your nob inflates the numbers. I've laughed at a few Marty1 posts, for instance. He shouldn't be taking that as a positive.


----------



## bimble (Dec 9, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> These stats have a bit of a problem - beyond the fact that posting pics of your nob inflates the numbers. I've laughed at a few Marty1 posts, for instance. He shouldn't be taking that as a positive.


true. But what i pondered is true too? Just hypothetically?
Just hadn't occurred to me before what a great opening / wound it is this to drive a wedge into, not just on the wider screen (the daily mail versus corbyn the antisemite) but also just between people, in places like this.


----------



## Knotted (Dec 9, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> These stats have a bit of a problem - beyond the fact that posting pics of your nob inflates the numbers. I've laughed at a few Marty1 posts, for instance. He shouldn't be taking that as a positive.



He's been getting a lot of likes on this thread sadly.


----------



## killer b (Dec 9, 2020)

Knotted said:


> He's been getting a lot of likes on this thread sadly.


each one has been carefully noted down in my book.


----------



## rummo (Dec 9, 2020)

For a group of people who had never heard of Peter Oborne, Middle East Eye, Stephen Solley or Daniel Staetsky you all seem to have a remarkably high opinion of yourselves.


----------



## belboid (Dec 9, 2020)

rummo said:


> For a group of people who had never heard of Peter Oborne, Middle East Eye, Stephen Solley or Daniel Staetsky you all seem to have a remarkably high opinion of yourselves.


Haven’t we? My word you’re an arrogant buffoon.


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 9, 2020)

rummo said:


> For a group of people who had never heard of Peter Oborne, Middle East Eye


Stephen Solley and Daniel Staetsky I’ll give you, but get a fucking grip.


----------



## killer b (Dec 9, 2020)

lads, he's just fucking with you now.


----------



## bimble (Dec 9, 2020)

rummo said:


> For a group of people who had never heard of Peter Oborne, Middle East Eye, Stephen Solley or Daniel Staetsky you all seem to have a remarkably high opinion of yourselves.


Stephen Solley QC! 
You’re disappointing rummo.
Just say what you want to say. 
Are you a person who blames lying jews for the fact that corbyn is not PM now or is it something else that motivates you to post incessantly about this.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 9, 2020)

rummo said:


> For a group of people who had never heard of Peter Oborne, Middle East Eye, Stephen Solley or Daniel Staetsky you all seem to have a remarkably high opinion of yourselves.



You are clearly on a wind up now. Have they rumbled you?


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 9, 2020)

bimble said:


> Just say what you want to say.


He doesn’t _say_ anything. He just wonders.


----------



## Knotted (Dec 9, 2020)

danny la rouge said:


> He doesn’t _say_ anything. He just wonders.



I why why why wonder why


----------



## bimble (Dec 9, 2020)

Rutita1 said:


> You are clearly on a wind up now. Have they rumbled you?


You think he's an antisemite now? Why?


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 9, 2020)

bimble said:


> You think he's an antisemite now? Why?


_Wondering. Wondering. Wondering_


----------



## bimble (Dec 9, 2020)

Rutita1 ? You instructed me to tag you if i want your attention so, when you have a moment -
What has rummo said that makes you think he might be 'rumbled', is there anything he's actually said here that you take issue with?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Dec 9, 2020)

I've been reminded of talking to my dad about this last Christmas.

He was quite disturbed by the fact that an old friend of his (long time active Labour member, and Jewish) had left the party saying he didn't feel comfortable in it any more. The friend wasn't there to talk about it, and I don't know the friend that well, so I couldn't really talk about his position and motivations, but my dad was convinced that there was no anti-semitism on the left. I spent a while explaining that yeah there definitely was, I'd seen it, I could point to examples, this is how it works, blah blah, and maybe he took what I was saying seriously. But he just didn't see it on his own, and he apparently didn't generally encounter people who would explain the details to him rather than just be using it as leftie-bashing, and he would generally be defensive - "at the local meeting X was saying she'd never heard anything anti-semitic in Labour in her life, and she's Jewish" etc.

My dad is very ethical and sticks very strongly to his principles, and he is smart, but he isn't always necessarily that good on subtexts. I had to warn him about fringe stuff around some of the environmental/Occupy/etc movements that he was getting into a few years ago, not because the movements were bad but because I knew some of the types who hung around the edges and I knew he wouldn't notice it. Is he anti-semitic? I mean maybe by some definitions - he probably holds some unexamined prejudices and assumptions. But his response was mostly about defending an idea of the ethics of a group he felt part of _because_ of their ethics, and he picked up on examples of clearly bad faith attacks to do this. He didn't blame Mossad or anything, he was just biased towards accepting explanations which wouldn't cause cognitive dissonance.

Of course, my dad isn't leader of the Labour party, so it doesn't really make a lot of difference to broader society what he thinks.

(NB I am not using this as a metaphor for anyone posting here. This is just me musing.)


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 9, 2020)

FridgeMagnet said:


> NB I am not using this as a metaphor for anyone posting here


No, I wouldn’t either. Your Dad seems sound.


----------



## rummo (Dec 9, 2020)

If nothing else the exchanges on this thread have offered some insight into the level of exasperation Stephen Solley must have felt when he received that ridiculous email from Mirwich.


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 9, 2020)

rummo said:


> If nothing else the exchanges on this thread have offered some insight into the level of exasperation Stephen Solley must have felt when he received that ridiculous email from Mirwich.


Oh yeah, the ice cream guy. You got selfies with him?  Jews love you, don’t they?


----------



## bimble (Dec 9, 2020)

QC!


----------



## killer b (Dec 9, 2020)

sorry bimble, you're in the book.


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 10, 2020)

bimble said:


> QC!



Quite cold?


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 10, 2020)

Something about rootless neopolitans


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 10, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Something about rootless neopolitans


They don’t understand English irony.


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 10, 2020)

Getting ice cream at Great Yarmouth in February never made any sense to me as a kid


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 10, 2020)

Or trying to fly a kite there. Oh look it’s blown away in the gale. Again.


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 10, 2020)

Yeah, took that too far. Sorry. Only had one coffee.


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 10, 2020)

It's Hanukkah today. I thought it started tomorrow for some reason and I don't think I have any of the right candles.


----------



## bimble (Dec 10, 2020)

frogwoman said:


> It's Hanukkah today. I thought it started tomorrow for some reason and I don't think I have any of the right candles.


Happy Chanukah. The festival that has no correct spelling would be fine with tea lights?


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 10, 2020)

Happy Chanukah all.


----------



## cantsin (Dec 10, 2020)

danny la rouge said:


> Oh yeah, the ice cream guy. You got selfies with him?  Jews love you, don’t they?



ffs.... just looked up the Stephen Solley /  Mirwitch stuff...... then clicked through to the twitter thread.

...for her to actually post this up 

 

and forget to mention that this was received from an elderly , lifelong jewish socialist and human rights QC, who she then starts seriously harassing via his workplace, the Labour Party etc, whilst lapping up the ' sending solidarity ' pile on.

Hope you're enjoying yourselves kicking this Rummo  about on here  though - this stuff is farcical.


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 10, 2020)

I’m remembering a Friends episode where Ross keeps starting to explain the history of the festival but keeps getting interrupted, so all he gets out is “Once upon a time there was a tribe called the Macabees...”

I’m guessing most of us didn’t find out any more either.  And probably think it has something to do with an armadillo.


----------



## bimble (Dec 10, 2020)

I think we are all pretty much agreed that this Miriam person probably behaved like a dick on that day in January.
The constant banging on about it (Stephen Solley QC!) serves what purpose - unless you think it’s representative of something much broader really commonplace  and important. Like jews lying and over reacting in order to.. hurt nice old men?


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 10, 2020)

cantsin said:


> Hope you're enjoying yourselves kicking this Rummo about on here though - this stuff is farcical.


What do you mean?


----------



## killer b (Dec 10, 2020)

cantsin said:


> and forget to mention that this was received from an elderly , lifelong jewish socialist and human rights QC


I'm not sure all that information would have been known by Mirwitch when she received the reply tbf. Why would it?


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 10, 2020)

Weirdly deferential for red hot socialists to be ‘he’s QC for heavens sake!’


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 10, 2020)

I’m pretty bored with people bringing up obscure occasions on which there probably wasn’t any antisemitism and using that to imply that it therefore follows it was all exaggerated, but never actually building up the courage to make that actual assertion.  Because, you know, you’re just asking questions.

So, let’s have some brave answers and fewer cowardly questions.


----------



## bimble (Dec 10, 2020)

I’m a bit curious as to whether you’ve changed your point of view at all cantsin since the post that started this thread almost five years ago. Have you?


----------



## rummo (Dec 10, 2020)

killer b said:


> I'm not sure all that information would have been known by Mirwitch when she received the reply tbf. Why would it?




How long did it take Mirwich to report him to his former chambers?

She knew exactly who he was.


----------



## cantsin (Dec 10, 2020)

bimble said:


> I think we are all pretty much agreed that this Miriam person probably behaved like a dick on that day in January.
> The constant banging on about it (Stephen Solley QC!) serves what purpose - unless you think it’s representative of something much broader really commonplace  and important. Like jews lying and over reacting in order to.. hurt nice old men?



 - I'd never heard of Solley before this thread, let alone 'banged on'  about him - above is the first time I've ever mentioned his name
  -Didn't see any ' agreement' that Mirwitch was a ' dickhead ' either ( though may have zoned out when thread clicked back into to circular clustrf*ck mode ).


----------



## killer b (Dec 10, 2020)

rummo said:


> How long did it take Mirwich to report him to his former chambers?
> 
> She knew exactly who he was.


or she googled him.


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 10, 2020)

cantsin said:


> - I'd never heard of Solley before this thread, let alone 'banged on'  about him - above is the first time I've ever mentioned his name
> -Didn't see any ' agreement' that Mirwitch was a ' dickhead ' either ( though may have zoned out when thread clicked back into to circular clustrf*ck mode ).


The constant banging on is from rummo , but you did take up the story. Do you think that’s a good look?


----------



## cantsin (Dec 10, 2020)

killer b said:


> I'm not sure all that information would have been known by Mirwitch when she received the reply tbf. Why would it?



 " Twenty-three minutes later, Mirwitch wrote to Solley’s former chambers, accusing him of antisemitism."









						National Chair of Young Labour reported elderly Jewish man, accusing him of antisemitism
					

Miriam Mirwitch wrote to Stephen Solley’s former chambers, accusing him of antisemitism. She also wrote to the Bar Standards Board. Both…




					medium.com


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 10, 2020)

Cards on table here, cantsin , if you are still in denial mode, then your judgement is seriously in question.


cantsin said:


> " Twenty-three minutes later, Mirwitch wrote to Solley’s former chambers, accusing him of antisemitism."
> 
> 
> 
> ...


_Now_ you’re banging on. 

Why?


----------



## bimble (Dec 10, 2020)

The first page of this thread had some real gems. Like this humorous attempt at defining antisemitism.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 10, 2020)

killer b said:


> or she googled him.


Doesn't really matter who he is, though. The email she quotes is not remotely antisemitic. Attacks on a person or group's politics are wrongly portrayed as attacks on their ethnicity. That's the core of the way antiantisemitism is weaponised to prevent criticism of Israeli treatment of Palestinians.


----------



## Knotted (Dec 10, 2020)

cantsin said:


> ffs.... just looked up the Stephen Solley /  Mirwitch stuff...... then clicked through to the twitter thread.
> 
> ...for her to actually post this up
> 
> ...




I'm kicking rummo about mainly because it's worth preserving the fact that there's space between Gnasher Jew and Chris Williamson. You know - a single example doesn't tell you the whole picture. And the fact that rummo keeps on going back to this single example again and again shows that he thinks it's of broad significance.

For what it's worth, looking at the other side of things, I think there's a bit of intra-community reckoning going on with left wing Jews (like Solley) making up an alarming proportion of the witches to be hunted. That some of these left wing Jews also have terrible politics is a little beside the point IMO. But then I'm inclined to listen to what those Jews like Frogwoman, bimble and Madeinbedlam who are likely to be subject to vitriol from both the dirtbag left and community stans are saying. They're much more worried about left antisemitism than they are about the BOD.


----------



## killer b (Dec 10, 2020)

cantsin said:


> " Twenty-three minutes later, Mirwitch wrote to Solley’s former chambers, accusing him of antisemitism."
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Fairly sure I could find someone's place of employment on google in 23 minutes. I'm not sure I'd be able to find out their ethnicity, age or the type of work they carried out at that place of employment.


----------



## cantsin (Dec 10, 2020)

danny la rouge said:


> Cards on table here, cantsin , if you are still in denial mode, then your judgement is seriously in question.
> 
> _Now_ you’re banging on.
> 
> Why?



lol, f*ck off


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 10, 2020)

cantsin said:


> lol, f*ck off


So, no brave answers, just more _wondering_?


----------



## rummo (Dec 10, 2020)

danny la rouge said:


> I’m pretty bored with people bringing up obscure occasions on which there probably wasn’t any antisemitism and using that to imply that it therefore follows it was all exaggerated, but never actually building up the courage to make that actual assertion.  Because, you know, you’re just asking questions.
> 
> So, let’s have some brave answers and fewer cowardly questions.




Is anyone claiming that Mirwich genuinely thought Solley was an anti Semite when she made the complaints against him?


killer b said:


> or she googled him.




She googled him and found out what exactly?


----------



## bimble (Dec 10, 2020)

Knotted said:


> I'm kicking rummo about mainly because it's worth preserving the fact that there's space between Gnasher Jew and Chris Williamson.


Yes this. And the fact that so many people seem to have been unable or unwilling to see that and felt instead that they had to just _pick a side_ is whats made the whole thing so shit. JVL for instance defended Chris Williamson even when he was sticking up for holocaust denier Gilad Atzmon. Because they had picked their side.


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 10, 2020)

rummo said:


> Is anyone claiming that Mirwich genuinely thought Solley was an anti Semite when she made the complaints against him?


Why the fuck are you going on and on about this obscure incident?


----------



## killer b (Dec 10, 2020)

actually, I'm not doing this today. Good luck guys. xx


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 10, 2020)

bimble said:


> Yes this. And the fact that so many people seem to have been unable or unwilling to see that and felt instead that they had to just _pick a side_ is whats made the whole thing so shit. JVL for instance defended Chris Williamson even when he was sticking up for holocaust denier Gilad Atzmon. Because they had picked their side.



I was devastated that Francesca marinez (disabled actress) kept in supporting Williamson even after he left labour. 

Apparently this helps dsiabled people


----------



## Knotted (Dec 10, 2020)

bimble said:


> Yes this. And the fact that so many people seem to have been unable or unwilling to see that and felt instead that they had to just _pick a side_ is whats made the whole thing so shit. JVL for instance defended Chris Williamson even when he was sticking up for holocaust denier Gilad Atzmon. Because they had picked their side.



Yep and Vanessa Beeley. I think JVL have done so much harm here. To the average block headed Labourite it looks like that the spectrum of Jewish opinion is either JLM or JVL.


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 10, 2020)

But but they’ve got jewish in their name. So if you object to their support for truly dreadful people you’re promoting identity politics.


----------



## cantsin (Dec 10, 2020)

bimble said:


> Yes this. And the fact that so many people seem to have been unable or unwilling to see that and felt instead that they had to just _pick a side_ is whats made the whole thing so shit. JVL for instance defended Chris Williamson even when he was sticking up for holocaust denier Gilad Atzmon. Because they had picked their side.




I get crank-stick for not supporting CW on soc media, as do all Momentum / Lansman etc
CW was a liability, his tacit support for Beeley was inexcusable, his constant over focus on Palestine etc
But he never 'stuck up' for Atzmon - apologised for signing the petition, and claimed not to have heard of him ( which sounded like b*ll*cks)
Defence for CW by most reasonable (ish)  people was that he was wrongly expelled for that final speech, claiming AS has been weaponised ( or exaggerated ) , and LP too defensive -  and would guess that was the case for JVL - not re: Atzmon, which would be madness ( and which even he didnt try to defend )
these are important distinctions, re: this thread etc


----------



## rummo (Dec 10, 2020)

Danny. Maybe you could tell me whether you think Mirwich genuinely thought that Solley was an anti Semite, or that the content of his email was anti Semitic, when she submitted her complaints about him to the Bar Council, his former chambers and the Labour Party.

If you think she was genuine then there's no point discussing the matter with you further.

On the other hand, if you think her complaints were disingenuous does her making those complaints did give you cause for concern?

If not, then as before, there's no point discussing the issue with you further.


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 10, 2020)

On second thoughts nah not today.


----------



## killer b (Dec 10, 2020)

rummo said:


> there's no point discussing the issue with you further.


You're right. There's no point in discussing any of this with any of us any further.


----------



## bimble (Dec 10, 2020)

?


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 10, 2020)

rummo said:


> there's no point discussing the matter with you further.


I’m not trying to discuss the matter with you. It’s a minor incident involving people I hadn’t previously heard of and that you can’t seem to let go of. I’m asking you why the fuck you keep going on about it.


----------



## Knotted (Dec 10, 2020)

In a moment of stupid hope, I left a polite comment on the JVL website about Chris Williamson's promotion of Vanessa Beeley. I didn't accuse him of antisemitism or anything, just a sort of "hey, be wary of this guy". It got deleted of course. Defending Chris Williamson was all part of the greater good ie. defending allies of Corbyn against attacks from the right. It's not about the technicalities of whether or not the specific grounds of his suspension were valid, that was never the motivation. I mean come on, obviously.


----------



## bimble (Dec 10, 2020)

That’s what’s been so depressing, the knee jerk stick up for my team right or wrong, on both sides.


----------



## cantsin (Dec 10, 2020)

bimble said:


> View attachment 242634 ?



ffs.... I take it back... that's mad

man, am confused...( re : JVL)


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 10, 2020)

danny la rouge said:


> I’m not trying to discuss the matter with you. It’s a minor incident involving people I hadn’t previously heard of and that you can’t seem to let go of. I’m asking you why the fuck you keep going on about it.


I think that i know the reason why someone who doesn't think an anti-semitic mural that Jeremy Corbyn recognises as anti-semitic, and who made his original inability to see it as anti-semitic an example of the ways in which labour members may not be able to recognise or identify the changing nature of contemporary anti-semitism and its symbols, and would therefore need training to overcome this failure, would seek to obsessively make a case that one trivial over reaction and an accusation of anti-semitism should stand for all such accusations of anti-semitism.


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 10, 2020)

Although I think I know.  It’s because you’re a tribal


butchersapron said:


> I think that i know the reason why someone who doesn't think an anti-semitic mural that Jeremy Corbyn recognises as anti-semitic and who made his original inability to see it as an example of the ways in which labour members may not be able to recognise or identify the changing nature of contemporary anti-semitism and its symbols and would therefore need training to overcome this failure would seek to obsessively make a case that one trivial over reaction and an accusation of anti-semitism should stand for all such accusations of anti-semitism.


Yes, I agree. 

But it’s depressing that after all this time some people are still in deny, defend and excuse mode. It does pretty much prove the point.


----------



## rummo (Dec 10, 2020)

danny la rouge said:


> I’m not trying to discuss the matter with you. It’s a minor incident involving people I hadn’t previously heard of and that you can’t seem to let go of. I’m asking you why the fuck you keep going on about it.




Because 

1. Stephen Solley isn't an anti Semite

2. There was nothing in his email that was remotely anti Semitic

3. He's a relatively prominent individual with a high public profile 

4. Mirwich, likewise has a public profile with political ambitions, so knew that her behaviour could have consequences for her political ambitions

5. Solley's email to Mirwich was prompted by her assertions that she face anti Semitism on a daily basis, which assertion he as an 80 year old Jewish man regarded as ridiculous and offensive, so his opinion is in itself of interest in this whole discussion

6. That Mirwich, knowing full well who Solley was, and knowing that her complaint was false and malicious, felt empowered and emboldened enough to make the most hurtful, scandalous and outrageous allegations about him, not just to the Labour Party, but to the Bar Council and to his former chambers. Her attitude and behaviour raises questions about how many other such complaints and allegations are as spurious as this one

7. That we only know about this because Solley has ignored the Labour Party's instruction not to make the issue public. This case has therefore help shine a light on matters that are otherwise not open to public scrutiny.


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 10, 2020)

rummo said:


> Stephen Solley isn't an anti Semite


I’ve never claimed he is.

Pretty sure you are though.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 10, 2020)

danny la rouge said:


> Although I think I know.  It’s because you’re a tribal
> 
> Yes, I agree.
> 
> But it’s depressing that after all this time done people are still in deny, defend and excuse mode. It does pretty much prove the point.


The 'all this time' bit is interesting. Rummo claims to have been involved in left politics for 40+ years. Which makes me wonder, has he recently gone off or was this element always there on this labour left? It was 36 years ago that Steve Cohen wrote That's Funny You Don't. Look Anti-Semitic: An anti-racist analysis of left anti-semitism based on.  Has their anti-semitism developed from the traditional stuff, or is is still trapped in the old style stuff which is why they - like many well meaning liberal/left/labour types - cannot see modern anti-semitism. Modern anti-semitism not being kosher anti-semitism sort of thing.


----------



## rummo (Dec 10, 2020)

danny la rouge said:


> I’ve never claimed he is.
> 
> Pretty sure you are though.




So do you think Mirwich genuinely believed Solley is an anti Semite?


----------



## killer b (Dec 10, 2020)

butchersapron said:


> The 'all this time' bit is interesting. Rummo claims to have been involved in left politics for 40+ years. Which makes me wonder, has he recently gone off or was this element always there on this labour left? It was 36 years ago that Steve Cohen wrote That's Funny You Don't. Look Anti-Semitic: An anti-racist analysis of left anti-semitism based on.  Has their anti-semitism developed from the traditional stuff, or is is still trapped in the old style stuff which is why they - like many well meaning liberal/left/labour types - cannot see modern anti-semitism. Modern anti-semitism not being kosher anti-semitism sort of thing.


Not necessarily anything to do with rummo, but I suspect they often can't see it because they don't know any/very many jews, and they pick and choose the jewish voices they pay attention to (Rosen, Margoyles, JVL... that's more or less it) - so it's all theory. It's worth noting that there seems to have been some movement on this thread in the last couple of days, on the back of some personal anecdotes from bimble & froggie - I think lots of people just haven't had people they know and trust saying 'this is how this impacts on us'.


----------



## cantsin (Dec 10, 2020)

bimble said:


> I’m a bit curious as to whether you’ve changed your point of view at all cantsin since the post that started this thread almost five years ago. Have you?



Yep - repeated personal testimony, cold hard evidence ( often screenshotted, and, not afraid to admit it, often from likes of Gnasher - plus the very rare IRL episode  ) of the scale of crankery / AS in Labour over those years has been irrefutable ( though also often amplified / weaponised by predominantly non Jewish players)   , and discovering ( via here ) the likes of Beeley, ' the anti imperialism of fools' , and how that feeds into AS orbit etc :  all have been eye opening / attitude changing.

( ps : am aware I probably need to act more like it )


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 10, 2020)

rummo said:


> So do you think Mirwich genuinely believed Solley is an anti Semite?


I have no idea what was going through Mirwich’s head.  I’ve never heard of her before you brought her up.  

What I do know is that anyone using this obscure and trivial incident as such a totem as you do is an unhinged monomaniac.


----------



## rummo (Dec 10, 2020)

danny la rouge said:


> I have no idea what was going through Mirwich’s head.  I’ve never heard of her before you brought her up.
> 
> What I do know is that anyone using this obscure and trivial incident as such a totem as you do is an unhinged monomaniac.




It's neither obscure nor trivial.

I think you find it uncomfortable because it challenges your opinions and your mindset and that's why you wish to marginalise  and dismiss it.

So maybe gives some thought to what Mirwich might actually have been thinking when she decided to make her accusations. Indulge in some conjecture. Even if only as an intellectual exercise.


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 10, 2020)

rummo said:


> It's neither obscure nor trivial.
> 
> I think you find it uncomfortable because it challenges your opinions and your mindset and that's why you wish to marginalise  and dismiss it.
> 
> So maybe gives some thought to what Mirwich might actually have been thinking when she decided to make her accusations. Indulge in some conjecture. Even if only as an intellectual exercise.


You could read what I already said several times, you know.  By reading my posts.

He doesn’t seem to have been antisemitic.  She appears to have over reacted.

If you want to know why she did (and like I say I’m not a mind reader), being Jewish during this maelstrom has probably been very uncomfortable. Maybe she was frazzled by it all and over reacted. Who knows.

So, that’s one incident dealt with.

If you want to know my opinion on the wider issues, read this. I wrote it.










						Identity politics and anti-Semitism on the left - Anarchist Communist Group
					

Bakunin wrote, in The Capitalist System, “What is it that brings the capitalist to the market? It is the urge to get rich, to increase his capital, to gratify his ambitions and social vanities, to be able to indulge in all conceivable pleasures. And what brings the worker to the market? Hunger...




					www.anarchistcommunism.org


----------



## brogdale (Dec 10, 2020)

danny la rouge said:


> You could read what I already said several times, you know.  By reading my posts.
> 
> He doesn’t seem to have been antisemitic.  She appears to have over reacted.
> 
> ...


That's a fine piece of work there, Danny 
Thanks for posting it up.


----------



## rummo (Dec 10, 2020)

danny la rouge said:


> You could read what I already said several times, you know.  By reading my posts.
> 
> He doesn’t seem to have been antisemitic.  She appears to have over reacted.
> 
> ...




 'Maybe she was frazzled by it all and over reacted. Who knows.

 So, that’s one incident dealt with.'



Are there any other interpretations of her actions that occur to you which might not sit so comfortably with your settled views?

Because if there are, the incident isn't dealt with.


----------



## bimble (Dec 10, 2020)

rummo said:


> 'Maybe she was frazzled by it all and over reacted. Who knows.
> 
> So, that’s one incident dealt with.'
> 
> ...



It’s getting a bit weird now. Maybe a Jewish woman hurt your feelings when you were 12 or something.
Why don’t you just spell it out.
she behaved like that towards Stephen Solley QC because ...  
?


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 10, 2020)

rummo said:


> Are there any other interpretations of her actions that occur to you which might not sit so comfortably with your settled views?
> 
> Because if there are, the incident isn't dealt with.


Spit it out.


----------



## rummo (Dec 10, 2020)

bimble said:


> It’s getting a bit weird now. Maybe a Jewish woman hurt your feelings when you were 12 or something.
> Why don’t you just spell it out.
> she behaved like that towards Stephen Solley QC because ...
> ?




Because she felt she could?

Because she thought she could get away with doing so without any adverse consequences even though she knew the complaints were vindictive, baseless, without any justification whatsoever?

Because she was more concerned with exaggerating the extent of anti Semitism in the Labour Party than with dealing with actual anti Semitism in the Labour Party or in society as a whole?

Because she objected to Solley's views on Israel/Palestinian rights?

Because she regarded Solley's views on Israel/Palestinian rights as  anti Semitic?

Lots of possibilities, most of them more credible than 'oh she was a a bit upset and maybe over reacted a little bit.'


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 10, 2020)

rummo said:


> Because she felt she could?
> 
> Because she thought she could get away with doing so without any adverse consequences even though she knew the complaints were vindictive, baseless, without any justification whatsoever?
> 
> ...


And if she was being opportunist, what wider lesson do you draw from it?


----------



## sleaterkinney (Dec 10, 2020)

danny la rouge said:


> Spit it out.


Is it " the scale of the problem was dramatically overstated for political reasons by our opponents inside and outside the party"?


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 10, 2020)

I’ll spell this out again for you, rummo , you total zoomer.  Nobody has ever said false accusations aren’t made.  I for one had long, long, long criticised the disingenuous labelling by some of all opposition to Israeli policy as antisemitic.  As you would know if you bothered finding out.

The point is - and this is the biggie so pay attention - if your first response to the existence of any prejudice, racism, whatever it might be, is “sometimes it’s not true”, then you are (one is) a massive knobend and probably a bit prejudiced that way yourself,

Is that clear enough?

Move it away from Jewish people and apply it to other situations.  Rape allegations.  Any other form of racism. Any thing.  Try it out.  “Ah but”.  How does it look?

Tadger.


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 10, 2020)

sleaterkinney said:


> Is it " the scale of the problem was dramatically overstated for political reasons by our opponents inside and outside the party"?


And the hooked noses on the mural could have been Alf Garnet.


----------



## bimble (Dec 10, 2020)

Tadger is Scottish for todger? Not a wasted day at all.


----------



## Knotted (Dec 10, 2020)

It's my new favourite insult.


----------



## CNT36 (Dec 10, 2020)

danny la rouge said:


> You could read what I already said several times, you know.  By reading my posts.
> 
> He doesn’t seem to have been antisemitic.  She appears to have over reacted.
> 
> ...


That piece would get you exposed as an anti-semite on my side of the Tamar.



> *Cornwall Anti-Semitism Watch*
> tS2pn4aonsno sJramnuherSdartlyc  ·
> 
> IMPORTANT NEWS: Cornwall Council has adopted the IHRA (International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance) definition of anti-semitism. Any candidate for Cornwall Council in the future will need to abide by the IHRA definition of what counts as anti-Jewish racism or risk being in breach of the Council's conduct code.
> ...


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 10, 2020)

CNT36 said:


> That piece would get you exposed as an anti-semite on my side of the Tamar.


Probably. Which kind of makes you wonder just what you have to do to please these Corbynist denialists.


----------



## rummo (Dec 10, 2020)

danny la rouge said:


> I’ll spell this out again for you, rummo , you total zoomer.  Nobody has ever said false accusations aren’t made.  I for one had long, long, long criticised the disingenuous labelling by some of all opposition to Israeli policy as antisemitic.  As you would know if you bothered finding out.
> 
> The point is - and this is the biggie so pay attention - if your first response to the existence of any prejudice, racism, whatever it might be, is “sometimes it’s not true”, then you are (one is) a massive knobend and probably a bit prejudiced that way yourself,
> 
> ...





Oh dear. You sound upset. 

How about the FIRST response to allegations of anti Semitism is to investigate and deal with them?

And then how about the SECOND response, possibly running concurrently with the FIRST response,  should  be   to say 'hang on, there's something amiss here. There's obviously many, many spurious allegations being made quite shamelessly and they appear to being made for factional/political reasons. Why is this happening? We must find out and we must put a stop to it because it is causing undue alarm to Jewish people, it is damaging the Labour Party to the advantage of the Tories and their allies and it is grossly unfair to those who have been unjustly accused?


----------



## Knotted (Dec 10, 2020)

Investigate, ask questions do lots of wondering and then come to the _obvious_ conclusion from one example.


----------



## CNT36 (Dec 10, 2020)

rummo said:


> Oh dear. You sound upset.
> 
> How about the FIRST response to allegations of anti Semitism is to investigate and deal with them?
> 
> And then how about the SECOND response, possibly running concurrently with the FIRST response,  should  be   to say 'hang on, there's something amiss here. There's obviously many, many spurious allegations being made quite shamelessly and they appear to being made for factional/political reasons. Why is this happening? We must find out and we must put a stop to it because it is causing undue alarm to Jewish people, it is damaging the Labour Party to the advantage of the Tories and their allies and it is grossly unfair to those who have been unjustly accused?


Concurrently? Why not just do away with number one completely?


----------



## CNT36 (Dec 10, 2020)

Knotted said:


> Investigate, ask questions do lots of wondering and then come to the _obvious_ conclusion.


Timewaster.


----------



## rummo (Dec 10, 2020)

CNT36 said:


> Concurrently? Why not just do away with number one completely?




Why would you do that?

Is it the proposed chronology that you object to? Or moving beyond stage 1? 

Bear in mind that stage 1 isn't an event, it's a process, so can still be ongoing while stage 2 takes place.


----------



## CNT36 (Dec 10, 2020)

How do you know "There's obviously many, many spurious allegations being made quite shamelessly" until you have investigated and come to some conclusions? Would there also not need to be a stage prior to your second stage to determine what are bad faith accusations and what are genuine allegations that perhaps don't meet the standards of evidence or are based on a misunderstanding in a climate of widespread racist abuse?


----------



## rummo (Dec 10, 2020)

CNT36 said:


> How do you know "There's obviously many, many spurious allegations being made quite shamelessly" until you have investigated and come to some conclusions? Would there also not need to be a stage prior to your second stage to determine what are bad faith accusations and what are genuine allegations that perhaps don't meet the standards of evidence or are based on a misunderstanding in a climate of widespread racist abuse?



Given that stage 1 has been underway for some time and there has been no stage 2 I'm not sure what your objection is here.

I think the Labour Party should be as proactive and as vigilant in pursuing stage 2 as they have been with stage 1, if for no other reason than to protect those wrongly accused.


----------



## bimble (Dec 10, 2020)

rummo said:


> ..We must find out and we must put a stop to it because it is causing undue alarm to Jewish people


Do fuck off. Thanks.


----------



## kebabking (Dec 10, 2020)

Can we not just crack on with '_waKe uP sHEeplE, it's The JoOs'..._?

(This is all very pedestrian, we all know where it's going, and we're busy people with much else to do)


----------



## killer b (Dec 10, 2020)

kebabking said:


> and we're busy people with much else to do


has this just turned into the 'post an obvious lie' thread?


----------



## CNT36 (Dec 10, 2020)

rummo said:


> Is it the proposed chronology that you object to? Or moving beyond stage 1?


As to your second question. Number 1 needs to be a real "process" to not only adequately resolve individual cases but to see what steps the Labour party needs to take to combat antisemitism within the party. It should not be a formality a before getting on with the real work of getting a temporary advantage in internal Labour party squabbles. It should be about making the Labour Party, the left and wider society free of anti-Semitism. 

Now we've dealt with after stage 1 perhaps we should think about before. Is the current process of investigating anti-Semitism in the Labour Party fit for purpose? It would need to be to deal with these cases and for various reasons not completely the fault of Corbyn and his allies it was not when it mattered.


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 10, 2020)

rummo said:


> Oh dear. You sound upset.


I’m angry.


----------



## rummo (Dec 10, 2020)

bimble said:


> Do fuck off. Thanks.




Sorry, just to save you the trouble of typing any similar responses, I will not be fucking off.


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 10, 2020)

If you're interested in my thoughts on uk antisemitism I wrote this a few years ago. I'd be much tougher on the likes of Corbyn these days tho. Antisemitism in the UK - Ungagged!


----------



## rummo (Dec 10, 2020)

CNT36 said:


> As to your second question. Number 1 needs to be a real "process" to not only adequately resolve individual cases but to see what steps the Labour party needs to take to combat antisemitism within the party. It should not be a formality a before getting on with the real work of getting a temporary advantage in internal Labour party squabbles. It should be about making the Labour Party, the left and wider society free of anti-Semitism.
> 
> Now we've dealt with after stage 1 perhaps we should think about before. Is the current process of investigating anti-Semitism in the Labour Party fit for purpose? It would need to be to deal with these cases and for various reasons not completely the fault of Corbyn and his allies it was not when it mattered.




Reminds me of the line about Gerald Ford being so dumb he couldn't fart and chew gum at the same time.

Obviously you object to stage 2 in principle, fair enough, I can understand why you would, but enough with the dissembling.


----------



## CNT36 (Dec 10, 2020)

rummo said:


> Given that stage 1 has been underway for some time and there has been no stage 2 I'm not sure what your objection is here.
> 
> I think the Labour Party should be as proactive and as vigilant in pursuing stage 2 as they have been with stage 1, if for no other reason than to protect those wrongly accused.





rummo said:


> Given that stage 1 has been underway for some time and there has been no stage 2 I'm not sure what your objection is here.
> 
> I think the Labour Party should be as proactive and as vigilant in pursuing stage 2 as they have been with stage 1, if for no other reason than to protect those wrongly accused.



Stage 1 has been criticised by (and accusations made against) factions within the Labour Party both for and against Corbyn as being subject to obstruction and political interference. Does that seem an adequate process to determine the truth in accusations before moving on to your stage 2?


----------



## killer b (Dec 10, 2020)

rummo said:


> enough with the dissembling


it's ok, we've got your number anyway.


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 10, 2020)

frogwoman said:


> If you're interested in my thoughts on uk antisemitism I wrote this a few years ago. I'd be much tougher on the likes of Corbyn these days tho. Antisemitism in the UK - Ungagged!


I tried that. rummo is only interested in rummo ‘s “thoughts”.


----------



## bimble (Dec 10, 2020)

rummo said:


> Sorry, just to save you the trouble of typing any similar responses, I will not be fucking off.


Are you having a good time?


----------



## kebabking (Dec 10, 2020)

killer b said:


> has this just turned into the 'post an obvious lie' thread?



You got me - I was waiting to pick up the kids from school.


----------



## killer b (Dec 10, 2020)

bimble said:


> Are you having a good time?


he fucking loves it, keeping us all captivated by his little racist dance.


----------



## CNT36 (Dec 10, 2020)

rummo said:


> Reminds me of the line about Gerald Ford being so dumb he couldn't fart and chew gum at the same time.
> 
> Obviously you object to stage 2 in principle, fair enough, I can understand why you would, but enough with the dissembling.


I'm not completely sure what your stage 2 is but I don't think the Labour Party being "as proactive and as vigilant in pursuing stage 2 as they have been with stage 1" is necessarily the right approach particularly as those wrongly accused would be cleared by an adequate stage 1. Before I can even think about talking about stage 2 in those terms we need some sort of shared understanding of stage 1.


----------



## bimble (Dec 10, 2020)

Are you a labour party member rummo ?


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## bimble (Dec 10, 2020)

Incidentally that bit where rummo was explaining how Jews have been caused “undue alarm” that’s very much how corbyn’s statement on the day report came out felt. When he said it’s the weaponisation that has ‘hurt Jewish people’ & which must not be repeated.
Not just condescending or faux concern but just one more little kick of the football. That’s how it felt, I’m not hypothesising as to his intentions or what he meant.


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 10, 2020)

frogwoman said:


> If you're interested in my thoughts on uk antisemitism I wrote this a few years ago. I'd be much tougher on the likes of Corbyn these days tho. Antisemitism in the UK - Ungagged!


That’s far too thoughtful and nuanced for rummo to bother with.


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 10, 2020)

bimble said:


> Incidentally that bit where rummo was explaining how Jews have been caused “undue alarm” that’s very much how corbyn’s statement on the day report came out felt. When he said it’s the weaponisation that has ‘hurt Jewish people’ & which must not be repeated.
> Not just condescending or faux concern but just one more little kick of the football. That’s how it felt, I’m not hypothesising as to his intentions or what he meant.


Exactly.  “How upset Jews must be by all this exaggeration”.

There’s a parallel with the Johnny Depp libel case. A court finds (in a case stupidly brought by Depp) that it’s OK to call Depp a wife beater, on account of how he beat his wife.

The response of some people? “Winona says he never beat _her_!”  That is not evidence against him hitting Amber Heard.

“Amber Heard is a head case”. Again, not evidence that Depp didn’t hit her.

“But we’ve always liked Depp. He seems funny and plays the guitar too”.  Totally irrelevant.

This is what rummo and others are doing with regards to antisemitism on the left in general and the Labour Party in particular. And it’s nauseating.


----------



## Knotted (Dec 10, 2020)

After that post about that mural, I don't think rummo is fussed about antisemitism. Its less denialism and more shrug, whatever, look Alf Garnett.


----------



## killer b (Dec 10, 2020)

It is difficult, but I think there is little to be gained from further engagement with rummo, who is not here to have his mind changed. I think the base and revolting nature of his thinking has been adequately demonstrated for any undecided onlookers. There is nothing of value to be achieved from including him in any future conversation - I suggest not giving him any further satisfaction.


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 10, 2020)

Knotted said:


> After that post about that mural, I don't think rummo is fussed about antisemitism. Its less denialism and more shrug, whatever, look Alf Garnett.


_They don’t look like Jews, they look like Warren Mitchell._


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 10, 2020)

killer b said:


> There is nothing of value to be achieved from including him in any future conversation - I suggest not giving him any further satisfaction.


Agreed. Must try to follow that sound advice.


----------



## killer b (Dec 10, 2020)

danny la rouge said:


> Agreed. Must try to follow that sound advice.


This argument has provided a great deal of clarity over the last few days, it's not been a waste of time at all. I think it has become so to continue it though.


----------



## rummo (Dec 10, 2020)

There appears to be a small group of  people on here who have funnelled their thought into a cul de sac which is their happy place  where they can bask in their self righteousness, congratulating one another about how virtuous they are and don't want to be disturbed.

It's like an eventide home for the intellect, where everything is to be comforting and safe.

Pathetic really.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Dec 10, 2020)




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## killer b (Dec 10, 2020)

If - and I think it's true - some progress has been made in the last few days on this thread, I think it would be useful to work out how that's happened, and how to expand on it. Is it scaleable?


----------



## belboid (Dec 10, 2020)

It hasn’t and it isn’t.


----------



## killer b (Dec 10, 2020)

oh well.


----------



## Knotted (Dec 10, 2020)

I don't feel as though I've changed my views but a few days ago I wasn't bothered about Corbyn's point about exaggeration hurting Jewish people. I am now.


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## Fozzie Bear (Dec 10, 2020)

I've been reading and not posting. 

I'd say that there has been a surprising amount of consensus on this thread from posters I respect - both jewish and non-jewish and both inside and outside of the labour party. It has slightly changed my way of thinking about this and I can see that the mantra of "Yes but" is not a good way to go.

I think that's good but it isn't scaleable because unfortunately that would mean having the same conversation over and over and over again. And nobody sensible can be bothered with that.


----------



## bimble (Dec 10, 2020)

It feels like things had moved forward instead of just going round and round. Feels like a tiny miracle tbh. Which is appropriate (first day of the Festival of unexpected little lights).


----------



## LDC (Dec 10, 2020)

Fozzie Bear said:


> I've been reading and not posting.
> 
> I'd say that there has been a surprising amount of consensus on this thread from posters I respect - both jewish and non-jewish and both inside and outside of the labour party. It has slightly changed my way of thinking about this and I can see that the mantra of "Yes but" is not a good way to go.
> 
> I think that's good but it isn't scaleable because unfortunately that would mean having the same conversation over and over and over again. And nobody sensible can be bothered with that.



Ditto, been reading the thread, but not able to summon the patience to post or like all the sense that's being posted, but I appreciate those that have been putting the time and thought into posting the politically coherent and sound stuff, cheers. (That's not you rummo just for clarity.)


----------



## Knotted (Dec 10, 2020)

It would be good if progress was made on this issue in the Labour Party (not necessarily for the Labour Party's sake). And I don't think it will be via disciplinary measures, but by educational measures. But that will look like JLM doing all the education with little nuggets about what you can and can't say about Israel with the JVL standing outside shouting about it. I don't see it working. It won't be bimble/frogwoman/madeinmedlam nudging things in the right direction.


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 10, 2020)

If I don’t have to think about antisemtism ever again and can go back to thinking about things I prefer thinking/campaigning about I would be a mazel dicker yid


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 10, 2020)

On the BOD etc - I've noticed myself being defensive about these institutions in a way I wouldn't necessarily under 'normal' circumstances despite some of their issues. You end up seeing it all as part of the same 'thing'. There is an antisemitic current in every political party in the UK from far left to centrist/liberal to the right, and antisemitic attacks have been increasing year on year since the 2010s. 

 Antisemitism also empowers the most reactionary and conservative forces in the Jewish community, many of whom are currently engaged in trying to set up alternatives to the mainstream Jewish bodies because they think they are too left wing. Ive seen this happen, I've seen mates drawn into getting too close to right wing groups like that Gnasher Jew and so on because they are the only ones who appear to take it seriously. The BOD copped alot of criticism from such groups because they were even talking to labour MPs without demanding they leave at one point. 

I'm a non/ by many definitions 'anti' Zionist jew btw although I seldom use the word or identify as such because it has so many connotations to it. It doesn't help us when every fucking thing you say in terms of a criticism of things you don't like and want to change is going to be picked up on and used by people who want you dead. I've held back from saying stuff about Israel publically because I am worried going to be used like that- 'see she's a jew and she agrees with me that the BOD are a bunch of cunts' sort of stuff.

You are worried about Jews being treated badly for being anti Zionists? You don't think the BOD represents everyone properly? Good. Neither do I. Enough already with the concern trolling, these issues would be far easier to resolve and those discussions much easier to have in and out of the Jewish community if we weren't dealing with a tidal wave of antisemitic shit and potentially having our words twisted to suit it.


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 10, 2020)

belboid said:


> It hasn’t and it isn’t.


I disagree with your first point.  I’m sadly inclined to agree with your second.


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 10, 2020)

frogwoman said:


> On the BOD etc - I've noticed myself being defensive about these groups in a way I wouldn't necessarily under 'normal' circumstances despite some of their issues. There is an antisemitic current in every political party in the UK from far left to centrist/liberal to the right.
> 
> Antisemitism also empowers the most reactionary and conservative forces in the Jewish community, many of whom are currently engaged in trying to set up alternatives to the mainstream Jewish bodies because they think they are too left wing. Ive seen this happen, I've seen mates drawn into getting too close to right wing groups like that Gnasher Jew and so on because they are the only ones who appear to take it seriously. The BOD copped alot of criticism from such groups because they were even talking to labour MPs without demanding they leave at one point.
> 
> ...


Important points. Thanks.


----------



## hitmouse (Dec 10, 2020)

Hello all, and chag sameach to those who are celebrating. Long-time listener (long enough to gather that this place isn't necessarily very welcoming to new posters), first-time caller here. I had pretty much decided I would probably go through life without ever actually signing up to use urban75, and was fine with that, but there has been a lot of speculating about what jews must be thinking and how jews must be feeling over the last few pages*, and a lot of it is quite heavily at odds with my own perspective, so.

By way of introduction, I'm a Jewish anarchist (or libertarian communist or whatever, but most of the alternatives sound even more wanky), have no particular love for Corbyn, think that a Corbyn government would have been cold rainy Syriza at best, spent the Corbyn era banging on about what local Labour councils were actually doing and so on. I do have close relatives who I care about dearly who are JVL supporters - not because they're mad Assadist hospital bombers who luv Chris Williamson or whatever, but because JVL seem to be the main organised group of Jews who are outspokenly defensive of the social democratic redistributive policies associated with Corbyn and of the possibility of there being criticism of Israel that's not automatically antisemitic. I don't agree with everything they say, but I also think it's not a good place if "we" start treating those people as the enemy.

In passing, one thing that I've thought for the last few years, and seems very relevant now, is that if you approach this primarily as a rift within the left then obviously The Enemy are the cranks, crank-enablers, crank-defenders, crank-defender-defenders and so on. In contrast, if you approach this primarily as a rift within "the Jewish community", if your main antagonist is like your tory Zionist relative who you see once a year at seder or people you speak to at synagogue if you go to that, then you're more likely to see The Enemy as being people making dodgy bad faith criticisms of Labour, or as Zionists or the BoD or whoever. I think this has probably helped play into the not very helpful dynamics we've seen over the last few years.

I had thought that pretty much everyone with any sense was agreed that two things are true at once, both that (left) antisemitism exists and that it has been cynically weaponised by centrist wronguns, not too far from what Corbyn said in that apology. Like, the ACG statement mentioned above mentions:
"In the so-called left’s anti-Semitism morass, there are three strands that some people seem to find it difficult to disentangle.

1. The disingenuous labelling of all criticism of the Israeli state, its actions and policies, as necessarily anti-Semitic.

2. The actual anti-Semitism that exists on the left, often associated with Palestinian solidarity (which does not have to be in itself anti-Semitic); the blind eye turned to it; the dodgy alliances thereby arrived at.

3. The use made of both of the above by anti-Corbyn forces inside and outside of the Labour Party."

In this thread, it sort of seems like people are moving towards a position where if you mention 1 and 3, you're automatically doing bad whataboutery and denialism, and I really don't think that's helpful? Like, are we just supposed to forget about all the shit over the last few years, that Daily Mail stuff about Corbyn pronouncing Epstein antisemitically and Jonathan Freedland smearing Majid Mahmood and all the rest of it, and anyone who mentions it is automatically suspect and should be fucked off?

It's really surpising to me to see people saying that they've become more defensive of the BoD, because I feel like I've had exactly the same response towards JVL. If anything, this has really sharpened up my critique of "community leadership" and similar rubbish - I kind of acquired it secondhand through things like the AYM/Kenan Malik critique of Asian communalism and the critiques of Black counterinsurgency that have come out of the US riots over the past decade or so, but I feel it a lot more deeply after seeing the BoD pull shit like "you're not allowed to talk to Jews who don't like us" as part of their ten demands during the Labour leadership contest.

Finally (I mean I could keep going but I think I've said enough for the time being), in terms of wanting to defend the possibility of political space in between Gnasher Jew and Williamson, how do people feel about Jewdas at the moment? Like, I think they have decent cred in terms of combating left antisemitism and saying that the Williamson/Galloway/Livingstone lot should be fucked off since before it was cool. They're also a lot more Corbyn defence-ist than the emerging consensus on this thread seems to be. Like, I don't agree with them 100%, you wouldn't catch me inviting Corbyn to my seder, but I'm probably closer to them than any other existing Jewish political current. Do people think they're apologist-denier types? Or is their position like a legit one that people can reasonably have even if it can be argued with?

* in passing, one of the things to be learned from all this is how hard it is for people to avoid doing some kind of identity politics, even the ones who are most outspokenly against it.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Dec 10, 2020)

Thanks for your contribution there hitmouse . It deserves a bit of thought and proper attention. I've been meaning to respond at some length to some of the recent posting, I hope constructively, but I've had to spend most of my time trying to help out with a suicidal relative. I've only had the time to read other people's postings and contributing to other more light hearted threads (for my own sanity). Welcome aboard, anyhow.


----------



## hitmouse (Dec 10, 2020)

Thanks, and sorry to hear that. I hope things go OK with your relative.


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 10, 2020)

hitmouse first thanks for your post. To be honest I'm not even hugely against identity politics in the way a lot of people here are . That's one of the reasons I haven't always felt comfortable posting here and don't go near a lot of discussions because there's a lot that can sometimes hide behind 'opposition to idpol' especially in relation to stuff like feminism and transphobia. If I want to know about how bad id politics is I can just watch youtube and find 'cringe compilations' and 'lol #triggered' type memes.   I tend to turn off these days when I see people going on about the evils of it even though there are some more nuanced criticisms.

there was a lot I agreed with in that acg statement but didn't agree with all of it, possibly for different reasons to you though. Same goes for Jewdas although I don't really pay much attention to what they're doing these days.

I know exactly how bad it is falling out with family members over that stuff. I have got cousins I fell out with over Israel in 2009 and didn't speak to for several years, completely cut em off in 2014 and only started speaking to them again over lockdown. I spent a lot of time as an activist in my teens and early 20s and I did experience antisemitism and a lot of it fucked me up, I've experienced it since from people I thought were ok too. I'm also very used to being 'the only jew' in a lot of social situations having grown up somewhere where there are hardly any Jews and having to deal with all that shit.

I am happy to carry on this in a pm as I feel this needs proper attention but this is getting into a lot of personal stuff tbh. but I'll say that I don't see this primarily as a 'dispute on the left' and I think seeing it as such has been incredibly damaging. 

Edited to add: I don't see the important part of it as a dispute within the community either,  although that's partly a consequence and to some extent has been occurring concurrently. It's kinda complicated but basically I think what's happening in labour is a symptom of a systematic issue in society. To be honest I am a bit drained from thinking about all this plus massive stress at work, and don't really have the energy to reply properly to all your points at the moment but feel free to pm me or something and I'll reply.


----------



## cantsin (Dec 10, 2020)

It’s late, am adding no useful comment or context here,  but this is from 2013, and looks like everything Corbyn seemed to be across the years  - simple expression of community solidarity , from a time when no one knew or cared what he was up to


----------



## bimble (Dec 11, 2020)

Gold standard lurking hitmouse, glad you're here.
I think mostly what's happened in the last few pages is best understood against the backdrop of the previous 160 (which consisted mostly of endless variants of 1 and 3 - its just silencing legit criticism of the Israeli state & weaponisation by 'our enemies' ), so there might be a bit of oversteer by way of trying to find a way forward, if you know what i mean. Am not good at car analogies. I don't think anyone is denying that 1 & 3 are real things or important parts of the story of what's been going on.
And Jewdas seem alright, i went to a thing of theirs in a pub couple of years ago and tbh it made me feel a bit old, the people there were all (i think) in their twenties, which obvs not a problem and i'm glad they exist.
They give good meme but this piece of writing published by them was properly useful imo. Not that i agree with every line but the basic dynamic it diagnoses is spot on imo. 




__





						Smears, evidence and free speech:  Breaking the vicious cycle of Labour’s antisemitism rows – Jewdas
					






					www.jewdas.org


----------



## LDC (Dec 11, 2020)

hitmouse said:


> Hello all, and chag sameach to those who are celebrating. Long-time listener (long enough to gather that this place isn't necessarily very welcoming to new posters), first-time caller here. I had pretty much decided I would probably go through life without ever actually signing up to use urban75, and was fine with that, but there has been a lot of speculating about what jews must be thinking and how jews must be feeling over the last few pages*, and a lot of it is quite heavily at odds with my own perspective, so.
> 
> By way of introduction, I'm a Jewish anarchist (or libertarian communist or whatever, but most of the alternatives sound even more wanky), have no particular love for Corbyn, think that a Corbyn government would have been cold rainy Syriza at best, spent the Corbyn era banging on about what local Labour councils were actually doing and so on. I do have close relatives who I care about dearly who are JVL supporters - not because they're mad Assadist hospital bombers who luv Chris Williamson or whatever, but because JVL seem to be the main organised group of Jews who are outspokenly defensive of the social democratic redistributive policies associated with Corbyn and of the possibility of there being criticism of Israel that's not automatically antisemitic. I don't agree with everything they say, but I also think it's not a good place if "we" start treating those people as the enemy.
> 
> ...



Hi and welcome hitmouse - great and interesting first post too, thanks. I'm a late joiner compared to plenty of others here, but there is some dead good political discussion and chat here ime so stick about.


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 11, 2020)

Honestly im not much of a fan of whoever does Jewdas's social media recently and tbh I often find some aspects of their type of 'Jewish leftist' scene quite alienating although I fully appreciate it's largely to do with me and not necessarily to do with their politics. However they've produced some useful stuff (that piece is one I've not read before, will read it later). 

i wasn't saying there's no problems with the BOD etc, the opposite in fact, but the wider societal context means it is often difficult/impossible to even start to talk about those sort of criticisms. yeah it's true about the community organisations often being dominated by right wingers and suffering from a lack of representation, and they've done some eye wateringly bad things, but that whole conversation would be, and was, much easier to have a couple years ago without a context of rapidly rising levels of antisemitism across society all the way from social media harassment all the way up to physical attacks.

Will say tho a lot of that 'wrong type of Jews' chat really irritates me for reasons I can't fully articulate at the moment, mostly because its early and I've not had much sleep. I hope you stick around tho.


----------



## inva (Dec 11, 2020)

cantsin said:


> It’s late, am adding no useful comment or context here,  but this is from 2013, and looks like everything Corbyn seemed to be across the years  - simple expression of community solidarity , from a time when no one knew or cared what he was up to



December 2013, by which point Corbyn was a member of the Palestine Live facebook group run by and crawling with extreme anti-semites.


----------



## rummo (Dec 11, 2020)

' rapidly rising levels of antisemitism '

Rapidly rising or skyrocketing?

And what is the baseline date you are measuring the change from?


----------



## killer b (Dec 11, 2020)

bimble said:


> Gold standard lurking hitmouse, glad you're here.
> I think mostly what's happened in the last few pages is best understood against the backdrop of the previous 160 (which consisted mostly of endless variants of 1 and 3 - its just silencing legit criticism of the Israeli state & weaponisation by 'our enemies' ), so there might be a bit of oversteer by way of trying to find a way forward, if you know what i mean. Am not good at car analogies. I don't think anyone is denying that 1 & 3 are real things or important parts of the story of what's been going on.
> And Jewdas seem alright, i went to a thing of theirs in a pub couple of years ago and tbh it made me feel a bit old, the people there were all (i think) in their twenties, which obvs not a problem and i'm glad they exist.
> They give good meme but this piece of writing published by them was properly useful imo. Not that i agree with every line but the basic dynamic it diagnoses is spot on imo.
> ...


This is a really good piece, thanks.


----------



## killer b (Dec 11, 2020)

killer b said:


> It is difficult, but I think there is little to be gained from further engagement with rummo, who is not here to have his mind changed. I think the base and revolting nature of his thinking has been adequately demonstrated for any undecided onlookers. There is nothing of value to be achieved from including him in any future conversation - I suggest not giving him any further satisfaction.


Quick reminder


----------



## cantsin (Dec 11, 2020)

inva said:


> December 2013, by which point Corbyn was a member of the Palestine Live facebook group run by and crawling with extreme anti-semites.



looked it all up to refresh memory - JC claimed to have been added to the group :

"The Palestine Live group was founded in 2013 *and was set up in a way that allowed administrators to add people to the group* without their consent. It is understood that Corbyn believes he may have been added to the group by an acquaintance, who simultaneously added him as a Facebook friend when he was a backbench MP. "









						Labour suspends party members in 'antisemitic' Facebook group
					

Jeremy Corbyn was active in closed group Palestine Live but says he did not see offensive posts and left in 2015




					www.theguardian.com
				




which may have sounded thin, if it wasn't for the fact that D Collier did some serious searching / researching, and didn't come up with a single like, comment or share from Corbyn that he felt warranted attention. Bearing in mind the total lack of attention focused on Corbyn 2013 ( when PL FB launched ) to 2015, ie : he had no need to moderate his own actions etc, his minimal activity on there  does bear out the idea he was added / not active etc.



			https://secureservercdn.net/192.169.223.13/3e8.04f.myftpupload.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/170222_palestine_solidarity_campaign_report.pdf


----------



## rummo (Dec 11, 2020)

killer b said:


> Quick reminder




So you will only engage with those who are prepared to accept your views?

Healthy.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 11, 2020)

rummo said:


> ' rapidly rising levels of antisemitism '
> 
> Rapidly rising or skyrocketing?
> 
> And what is the baseline date you are measuring the change from?



Her own experiences? Things she has seen, heard and read. FFs give this up already!

I don't think anyone here hasn't acknowledged the damage that false accusations' and weaponised accusations can do generally/has done in particular cases, both in terms of the ability deal with actual antisemitism on the Left and the ability to educate those who have fallen foul of antisemitic thinking because they're not up to speed with contemporary forms of it....yet here you are banging the same drum and minimising it, again?


----------



## hitmouse (Dec 11, 2020)

frogwoman said:


> hitmouse first thanks for your post. To be honest I'm not even hugely against identity politics in the way a lot of people here are . That's one of the reasons I haven't always felt comfortable posting here and don't go near a lot of discussions because there's a lot that can sometimes hide behind 'opposition to idpol' especially in relation to stuff like feminism and transphobia. If I want to know about how bad id politics is I can just watch youtube and find 'cringe compilations' and 'lol #triggered' type memes.   I tend to turn off these days when I see people going on about the evils of it even though there are some more nuanced criticisms.


Oh yeah, I also don't think "identity politics" is that useful of a term. I was just thinking about how even people who do tend to define themselves as being anti-idpol end up having to deal with the relationship of identity to politics in some way or another, so I think the term tends to be used in some quite slippery and inconsistent ways. Obviously we can all agree that there are instances of people using arguments about identity in shit and manipulative ways, but I think it's more useful to be specific about what those are instead of just saying "idpol" and expecting that everyone understands the same thing.



> I am happy to carry on this in a pm as I feel this needs proper attention but this is getting into a lot of personal stuff tbh. but I'll say that I don't see this primarily as a 'dispute on the left' and I think seeing it as such has been incredibly damaging.
> 
> Edited to add: I don't see the important part of it as a dispute within the community either,  although that's partly a consequence and to some extent has been occurring concurrently. It's kinda complicated but basically I think what's happening in labour is a symptom of a systematic issue in society. To be honest I am a bit drained from thinking about all this plus massive stress at work, and don't really have the energy to reply properly to all your points at the moment but feel free to pm me or something and I'll reply.


Yeah, feel free to PM. If I understand you properly, I think I totally agree with you, obviously arguments within the left/Labour or whatever aren't separated off from the rest of society. I was just kind of thinking about the way that people subjectively experience it, like if you mainly experience this stuff in the context of discussions with other lefties then that's a different experience to mainly having discussions about it with other jews, and the things that annoy you will be different. Totally appreciate how draining this stuff can be.


frogwoman said:


> Honestly im not much of a fan of whoever does Jewdas's social media recently and tbh I often find some aspects of their type of 'Jewish leftist' scene quite alienating although I fully appreciate it's largely to do with me and not necessarily to do with their politics. However they've produced some useful stuff (that piece is one I've not read before, will read it later).
> 
> i wasn't saying there's no problems with the BOD etc, the opposite in fact, but the wider societal context means it is often difficult/impossible to even start to talk about those sort of criticisms. yeah it's true about the community organisations often being dominated by right wingers and suffering from a lack of representation, and they've done some eye wateringly bad things, but that whole conversation would be, and was, much easier to have a couple years ago without a context of rapidly rising levels of antisemitism across society all the way from social media harassment all the way up to physical attacks.
> 
> Will say tho a lot of that 'wrong type of Jews' chat really irritates me for reasons I can't fully articulate at the moment, mostly because its early and I've not had much sleep. I hope you stick around tho.


I mean, I wouldn't really use that term myself, but I can see where it comes from, there has been a lot of people making declarations about "here's what The Jews are thinking", or the Jewish community or whatever, and if you don't fit into that then there is inevitably a kind of "well what am I then?" reaction. I can see your point, it's just kind of interesting to me that I've ended up feeling that way about to some extent about Labour, and Jewish Labour leftists in particular - I have a lot of criticisms of them, but I find myself feeling less critical and more defensive at a time when it feels like there's a push to make them illegitimate.

It's tricky, like I understand everyone here hates Suella Braverman and Boris Johnson, and so it should be possible to have conversations about specifically left antisemitism here without needing to say "well don't you think Suella Braverman and Viktor Orban are bad as well?" every five seconds, but there is something a bit crazymaking about how non-Labour/left antisemitism gets disappeared in the wider media conversation about these issues, so I can't really blame anyone who ends up just kind of running around shouting like "what about the Common Sense Group?" even if that's not really a helpful or productive thing to do.

In passing, was recommended this recently, written for a US audience and probably not really saying much that people on here won't already be familiar with, but came across as reasonably fair to me: The Tragedy of Jeremy Corbyn


----------



## bimble (Dec 11, 2020)

All this harmony breaking out is a bit much, is nobody even going to accuse hitmouse of being a banned returner.


----------



## rummo (Dec 11, 2020)

Rutita1 said:


> Her own experiences? Things she has seen, heard and read. FFs give this up already!
> 
> I don't think anyone here hasn't acknowledged the damage that false accusations' and weaponised accusations has done both in terms of the ability deal with actual cases of antisemitism on the Left and the ability to educate those who have fallen foul of antisemitic thinking because they're not up to speed with contemporary forms of it....yet here you are banging the same drum and minimising it, again?




I was asking for a baseline date from which she was assessing the rise in anti Semitism.

The reason I ask is because it seems to me there might be some shifting baseline syndrome at play here which might go some way to explaining how someone like Stephen Solley can regard Miriam Mirwich's claim that  "I know what it's like to face antisemitism every day'' as absurd.

He's maybe measuring what he regards as having to face anti Semitism against a different timescale based on his experiences from the 1940s onwards.

Or maybe you can offer some other possible explanation for his view?


----------



## Flavour (Dec 11, 2020)

Fuck off rummo nobody's interested in your shit-stirring.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 11, 2020)

rummo said:


> Or maybe you can offer some other possible explanation for his view?



Unless you want to out yourself as Stephen I'm not going to engage with 'his' view because I think that would be guess work and lead nowhere definitive.

I am assuming you aren't Stephen, so what is yours?


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 11, 2020)

Yeah don't bother I stuck him on ignore a while back.


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 11, 2020)

hitmouse thank you for your reply, lots to think about there. I'm at work so will try to get back to you at the weekend


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## Knotted (Dec 11, 2020)

I don't like criticising the JVL, they're Jews under fire from several quarters and they're fundamentally decent. But they could have been a voice of reason over the last few years and it feels like such a wasted opportunity.

Welcome aboard btw. hitmouse


----------



## rummo (Dec 11, 2020)

Flavour said:


> Fuck off rummo nobody's interested in your shit-stirring.




I'm not shit stirring.

And I will not fuck off.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 11, 2020)

Knotted said:


> I don't like criticising the JVL, they're Jews under fire from several quarters and they're fundamentally decent. But they could have been a voice of reason over the last few years and it feels like such a wasted opportunity.
> 
> Welcome aboard btw. hitmouse


You dont think JVL have been a voice of reason? Why not?


----------



## rummo (Dec 11, 2020)

Can you accept that it is possible to regard Mirwich's view that she has to fight anti Semitism every day as absurd without being anti Semitic?

And by extension can you accept that it is possible to regard some of the views expressed on here about the extent and degree of anti Semitism as absurd without being anti Semitic?


----------



## inva (Dec 11, 2020)

cantsin said:


> looked it all up to refresh memory - JC claimed to have been added to the group :
> 
> "The Palestine Live group was founded in 2013 *and was set up in a way that allowed administrators to add people to the group* without their consent. It is understood that Corbyn believes he may have been added to the group by an acquaintance, who simultaneously added him as a Facebook friend when he was a backbench MP. "
> 
> ...


Yes he would have been added to the group, from what I understand that's how the group worked. Your claim about Corbyn's activity is odd though because he definitely was active (though not very) and I've just checked and Collier does highlight comments and likes from Corbyn in the group. He doesn't accuse Corbyn of sharing their views and neither do I. Maybe he didn't notice the horrific stuff all over that group, and didn't know he was in the company of hardcore racists. He didn't notice the anti-semitism in the mural either. I don't think it's much of an excuse.

You're right though, he wasn't under scrutiny then and apparently felt no need as an anti-racist and MP to do even the bare minimum of investigation as to what kind of a group he'd been added to and was participating in. I doubt it would have even occured to him that it would have been necessary.


----------



## rummo (Dec 11, 2020)

inva said:


> Yes he would have been added to the group, from what I understand that's how the group worked. Your claim about Corbyn's activity is odd though because he definitely was active (though not very) and I've just checked and Collier does highlight comments and likes from Corbyn in the group. He doesn't accuse Corbyn of sharing their views and neither do I. Maybe he didn't notice the horrific stuff all over that group, and didn't know he was in the company of hardcore racists. He didn't notice the anti-semitism in the mural either. I don't think it's much of an excuse.
> 
> You're right though, he wasn't under scrutiny then and apparently felt no need as an anti-racist and MP to do even the bare minimum of investigation as to what kind of a group he'd been added to and was participating in. I doubt it would have even occured to him that it would have been necessary.




And yet some like Michael Rosen, who has known if for forty years, insists he's not anti Semitic.

I'm inclined to trust Rosen's judgement on this. No offence.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 11, 2020)

rummo said:


> I was asking for a baseline date from which she was assessing the rise in anti Semitism.


Plenty of evidence online. 
Surely you could have looked for yourself?


----------



## rummo (Dec 11, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Plenty of evidence online.
> Surely you could have looked for yourself?
> 
> View attachment 242869
> ...





I was asking for the baseline date the poster was using.

Only the poster could provide that.

No doubt there's all sorts of data on the internet.

But I would have no idea which date the poster was using.

Which was why I asked.


----------



## steveseagull (Dec 11, 2020)

It is all heading to the High Court. A group of mainly (but not exclusively) elderly Jewish party members have launched proceedings against the Labour party to challenge their disciplinary process (which is becoming more sinister by the day) which they claim, shits all over the EHRC report.









						Jewish members and others file court claim against Labour for breach of EHRC principles after party tells them: ‘EHRC does not apply to you’
					

Group believes leadership’s conduct is unlawful and a breach of its commitment to EHRC Seven mostly elderly members of the Labour Party have today filed a claim in the High Court after the Pa…




					skwawkbox.org


----------



## killer b (Dec 11, 2020)

bimble said:


> All this harmony breaking out is a bit much


you need to stop saying stuff like this, it's always a prelude to a deluge of crankery.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 11, 2020)

bimble said:


> Gold standard lurking hitmouse, glad you're here.
> I think mostly what's happened in the last few pages is best understood against the backdrop of the previous 160 (which consisted mostly of endless variants of 1 and 3 - its just silencing legit criticism of the Israeli state & weaponisation by 'our enemies' ), so there might be a bit of oversteer by way of trying to find a way forward, if you know what i mean. Am not good at car analogies. I don't think anyone is denying that 1 & 3 are real things or important parts of the story of what's been going on.
> And Jewdas seem alright, i went to a thing of theirs in a pub couple of years ago and tbh it made me feel a bit old, the people there were all (i think) in their twenties, which obvs not a problem and i'm glad they exist.
> They give good meme but this piece of writing published by them was properly useful imo. Not that i agree with every line but the basic dynamic it diagnoses is spot on imo.
> ...





killer b said:


> This is a really good piece, thanks.


This, from that, is exactly what i was getting at in my post to danny yesterday - the idea that there has been an evolution of this sort of labour centred anti-semitism from the classical stuff that steve cohen talked about in his book to one where it's not just anti-semitism in the left but _left-anti-semitism_, one where anti-semitism is tied up with the idea of being on the left, of defending and progressing the left. And that the more classical anti-semites like wino here are as unable to see it as anti-semitism as the classical old school_ sorry i missed_ _that _anti-racists like corbyn

_It was clear to me that the attacks on Corbyn were smears. And yet as the row between Corbyn’s defenders and attackers escalated the conflict began to take on new, more troubling dynamics. At worst, Corbyn had not been careful enough with his language (something he has subsequently admitted) and some of his past associations in his commendable advocacy for Palestinian rights. By contrast, some of those who identified as his supporters deliberately began ramping up their use of arguments that could conceivably be understood as antisemitic, now in full knowledge that they would be interpreted in this way. The primary objective was now fighting the “witch hunt” itself, as they call it. This is what many regard as a highly coordinated campaign to destroy the left, involving Labour Party rebels, the media and the Israeli government, and counting on the support of large numbers of British Jews. It has become an increasingly poisonous dispute that has played out both on social media and within Labour Party disciplinary processes._

...

_In essence, a loud minority of Labour supporters have come to the conclusion that because antisemitism has cynically been used by some to attack Corbyn, that any claim of antisemitism must, by definition, be a smear. By logical extension, anyone accusing a leftist of antisemitism must be part of the conspiracy, or otherwise is caving in to it, whether out of cowardice or gullibility._


----------



## Knotted (Dec 11, 2020)

TopCat said:


> You dont think JVL have been a voice of reason? Why not?



Because they're just about stanning for Corbyn/Labour left irrespective of context rather than representing diverse experiences and opinions of Jews fed up with the JLM. So they won't hear any criticisms of Livingstone or Williamson etc., no attempt at nuance just defend X! and support Y! and oh by the way we're Jewish (as if anybody cares if they are or not).


----------



## brogdale (Dec 11, 2020)

rummo said:


> I was asking for the baseline date the poster was using.
> 
> Only the poster could provide that.
> 
> ...


The timeframe mentioned was, IIRC, over the last few years.
All of the published data I've seen would appear to corroborate their perception of rising levels of antisemitism.
Maybe you don't agree?


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 11, 2020)

killer b said:


> you need to stop saying stuff like this, it's always a prelude to a deluge of crankery.


Perfect timing!


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 11, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Plenty of evidence online.
> Surely you could have looked for yourself?
> 
> View attachment 242869
> ...


Those are bad numbers, although the rise in social media numbers also reflects the rise in social media use generally. Steep jump in verbal abuse after 2016. The Brexit factor.


----------



## Knotted (Dec 11, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Those are bad numbers, although the rise in social media numbers also reflects the rise in social media use generally. Steep jump in verbal abuse after 2016. The Brexit factor.



There's also a problem that it's using self reported data and is dependent on people being willing to report to the CST which of course depends on them knowing about it in the first place. So to an extent the increases just represent the CST's profile increasing.

That's not to say it doesn't indicate a real trend of course.


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 11, 2020)




----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 11, 2020)

butchersapron said:


> By logical extension, anyone accusing a leftist of antisemitism must be part of the conspiracy, or otherwise is caving in to it, whether out of cowardice or gullibility.


Exactly.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 11, 2020)

steveseagull said:


> It is all heading to the High Court. A group of mainly (but not exclusively) elderly Jewish party members have launched proceedings against the Labour party to challenge their disciplinary process (which is becoming more sinister by the day) which they claim, shits all over the EHRC report.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I cannot believe that these people read the full report and reached the conclusions that they have, the skawkbox writer certainly has either not read it or if they have have utterly misunderstood it's findings. And more to the practical point, the labour party had until 5pm yesterday to provide the EHRC with a draft action plan to put right the things that the EHRC found unlawful (none of which are the things above), so bringing a case claiming that they haven't put things right which a) they don't have to and b) even if they did they did not have to complete them within this time frame is absurd. And filing a claim with the high court is not the same as 'going to the high court'.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 11, 2020)

bimble said:


> Incidentally that bit where rummo was explaining how Jews have been caused “undue alarm” that’s very much how corbyn’s statement on the day report came out felt. When he said it’s the weaponisation that has ‘hurt Jewish people’ & which must not be repeated.
> Not just condescending or faux concern but just one more little kick of the football. That’s how it felt, I’m not hypothesising as to his intentions or what he meant.


I dont really understand the point your are making here - could you explain it more please?
Isn't the fact that weaponisation hurt Jewish people (and the wider community) objectively true? Are you saying it isnt? Maybe I'm misunderstanding your post. Corbyn didn't just say it was ONLY the weaponsiation that had hurt people in that much longer statement, but it is objectively true that it very much did and continues to do so. Why faux concern?

In fact I remember you being hurt by it yourself and desperately wishing it would stop....>

I remember having an interaction with you a year or two ago where you were saying (paraphrase) in despair "I wish they would just stop stirring up the antisemitism accusations - its just making it so much worse",  I responded "its just begun in the US with accusations of Bernie Sanders being anti-semitic, so seemingly this political weaponisation wasn't going to go away, in fact its spreading as a tactic", to which you were despondent.

<<<posted in good faith in case that isnt clear


----------



## bimble (Dec 11, 2020)

ska invita will reply got to drive the car on a motorway now for first time since March.


----------



## cantsin (Dec 11, 2020)

ska invita said:


> I dont really understand the point your are making here - could you explain it more please?
> Isn't the fact that weaponisation hurt Jewish people (and the wider community) objectively true? Are you saying it isnt? Maybe I'm misunderstanding your post. Corbyn didn't just say it was ONLY the weaponsiation that had hurt people in that much longer statement, but it is objectively true that it very much did and continues to do so. Why faux concern?
> 
> In fact I remember you being hurt by it yourself and desperately wishing it would stop....>
> ...



The continued attempts to use same tactics on the squad as they tried vs Bernie over there don’t seem to have gained traction thankfully, seems to be mainly evangelical grifters that even the most machiney Democrats aren’t willing to co-weaponise with


----------



## rummo (Dec 11, 2020)

brogdale said:


> The timeframe mentioned was, IIRC, over the last few years.
> All of the published data I've seen would appear to corroborate their perception of rising levels of antisemitism.
> Maybe you don't agree?




Shifting baseline syndrome maybe?

My point is that someone like Solley, who has been around since the 1940s perhaps has a different perception of the extent and degree of antisemitism compared to someone much younger and that's why he regards Mirwich's claim to face anti Semitism every day as absurd (and upsetting).

The other point is how reliable is that data?

1. it's self reported, so while you can assume it's accurate, if you're basing a deduction on an assumption you're building on sand. Is the data subjected to any kind of scrutiny or checking? Just as there are those who would wish to downplay the amount of anti Semitism so there are those who would wish to exaggerate it.

2. it's based on perception, so do the rising figures  reflect a rise in the number of actual incidents or either a shift in people's attitudes towards what constitutes anti Semitism or public mood generally at the time making people more inclined to report an incident which in other times they might chose to ignore?


----------



## Knotted (Dec 11, 2020)

I would apologise for giving rummo a bit of material to crib from there, but he's cocked it up anyway.


----------



## cantsin (Dec 11, 2020)

cantsin said:


> The continued attempts to use same tactics on the squad over there ( as tried vs Bernie / AOC ) don’t seem to have gained traction thankfully, seems to be mainly evangelical grifters that even the most machiney Democrats aren’t willing to co-weaponise with


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 11, 2020)

Knotted said:


> There's also a problem that it's using self reported data and is dependent on people being willing to report to the CST which of course depends on them knowing about it in the first place. So to an extent the increases just represent the CST's profile increasing.
> 
> That's not to say it doesn't indicate a real trend of course.


I think that's part of it yes but CST are pretty well known in the Jewish community as they do a lot (most these days) of training for volunteer security duty in synagogues, basically sitting on the gate and letting people in for friday night service etc. However it's true that people might not have known they can report stuff to them. I have mixed feelings about the reporting stuff aspect tbh although they were very helpful when I had a workplace issue a few years ago. 

It's worth remembering that the vast majority of these kinda incidents are underreported, less so proportionally with antisemitism iirc tho and some incidents (eg on social  media or someone yelling stuff out a car window) you might not even bother.


----------



## rummo (Dec 11, 2020)

But the fact remains that someone like Solley thinks that the claim by Mirwich to face anti Semitism every day is absurd and  is accused of being anti Semitic for telling here so.


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## Knotted (Dec 11, 2020)

I don't like it when the CST issue these stats about the total number of incidents. It's not a useful statistic and it's always going to be a big (and unknowable big) underestimation for the more minor incidents. Looking at trends it would probably be best to stick to stats that are probably near 100% accurate such as attacks on Jewish communal property (which they do record and have alarmingly substantial numbers).

Edit to add: Last time I read a CST report (around 7 or 8 years ago) they said they were not encouraging reports from social media because it was borking their stats.


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 11, 2020)

Knotted said:


> I don't like it when the CST issue these stats about the total number of incidents. It's not a useful statistic and it's always going to be a big (and unknowable big) underestimation for the more minor incidents. Looking at trends it would probably be best to stick to stats that are probably near 100% accurate such as attacks on Jewish communal property (which they do record and have alarmingly substantial numbers).



Yeah they break it down by type iirc but I agree. 

To be honest I don't like the fact that the state has essentially given over responsibility for this sort of thing to a religious charity (and Tory MPs like Crispin Blunt have been calling to scrap funding for protection of Jewish buildings btw) and basically said 'here's some money lads, good luck' especially with the current government's increasing pandering to the far right and explicit adoption of parts of that agenda.


----------



## redsquirrel (Dec 11, 2020)

hitmouse said:


> Hello all, and chag sameach to those who are celebrating. Long-time listener (long enough to gather that this place isn't necessarily very welcoming to new posters), first-time caller here. I had pretty much decided I would probably go through life without ever actually signing up to use urban75, and was fine with that, but there has been a lot of speculating about what jews must be thinking and how jews must be feeling over the last few pages*, and a lot of it is quite heavily at odds with my own perspective, so.
> 
> By way of introduction, I'm a Jewish anarchist (or libertarian communist or whatever, but most of the alternatives sound even more wanky), have no particular love for Corbyn, think that a Corbyn government would have been cold rainy Syriza at best, spent the Corbyn era banging on about what local Labour councils were actually doing and so on. I do have close relatives who I care about dearly who are JVL supporters - not because they're mad Assadist hospital bombers who luv Chris Williamson or whatever, but because JVL seem to be the main organised group of Jews who are outspokenly defensive of the social democratic redistributive policies associated with Corbyn and of the possibility of there being criticism of Israel that's not automatically antisemitic. I don't agree with everything they say, but I also think it's not a good place if "we" start treating those people as the enemy.
> 
> ...


Good post and welcome to the boards.


----------



## rummo (Dec 11, 2020)

Does anyone know  why the Campaign Against Antisemitism and the Jewish Labour Movement  complained to the  Equality and Human Rights Commission about anti Semitism in the Labour Party  but not in the Conservative Party?

Is it because they were satisfied that the Conservative Party had no, or less of a, problem with anti Semitism, or was it  because they were holding then to a different standard?

I'd appreciate  any insight that posters might be able to offer.

Maybe it's my own prejudices at play but I've always had the impression that anti Semitism would be more prevalent, and anti Semites would be more at home,  in the Tory Party than in the Labour Party.


----------



## Serge Forward (Dec 11, 2020)

Fucking hell. When will it end?


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Dec 11, 2020)

Serge Forward said:


> Fucking hell. When will it end?


Yeah, but you started it.
No I didn't.
Yes you did.
No I didn't.
Yes you did, you bastard.
No I didn't, and you're the bastard.
Etc.


----------



## steveseagull (Dec 12, 2020)

butchersapron said:


> I cannot believe that these people read the full report and reached the conclusions that they have, the skawkbox writer certainly has either not read it or if they have have utterly misunderstood it's findings. And more to the practical point, the labour party had until 5pm yesterday to provide the EHRC with a draft action plan to put right the things that the EHRC found unlawful (none of which are the things above), so bringing a case claiming that they haven't put things right which a) they don't have to and b) even if they did they did not have to complete them within this time frame is absurd. And filing a claim with the high court is not the same as 'going to the high court'.



I got the High Court thing wrong. Fair play. You should maybe speak to a Jew and ask him (or me) why he cannot discuss Corbyn's suspension because it has been banned by a Stalinist diktat and then take a long hard look at yourself and ask yourself how you got to a place where you approve of Jews being censored.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 16, 2020)

bimble said:


> ska invita will reply got to drive the car on a motorway now for first time since March.


are you ready to reply yet?


----------



## bimble (Dec 16, 2020)

ska invita said:


> I dont really understand the point your are making here - could you explain it more please?
> Isn't the fact that weaponisation hurt Jewish people (and the wider community) objectively true? Are you saying it isnt? Maybe I'm misunderstanding your post. Corbyn didn't just say it was ONLY the weaponsiation that had hurt people in that much longer statement, but it is objectively true that it very much did and continues to do so. Why faux concern?
> 
> In fact I remember you being hurt by it yourself and desperately wishing it would stop....>
> ...



I get what you were asking - You're saying how come - if I have said myself that I wish the daily mail etc would stop using jews to attack Corbyn - how can I then complain when Corbyn himself says that the weaponsiation (in combination with whatever else) is what hurt jews? 

The 'weaponisation' did hurt me, it made me angry and sad, I think it has also led to an increase in antisemitism, but in saying all of that I'm just speaking for myself, Corbyn was speaking for.. Jewish people in his statement? It felt, to me, just totally inappropriate for him to respond to the report with a claim about what combination of things 'hurt jews and must never be repeated'. It's not his job to tell Jews what hurt them. 

Also, but here we get into the attempt to guess what his meaning and intention was, when he said that Jews have been hurt by the weaponisation & exaggeration, I don't _think_ that he had in mind the reasons that I am saying for myself (actual increase in antisemitism as a result of it all and the horrible feeling of being used as a football by shitheads who just wanted to get rid of JC). 

The more usual rendition of 'weaponisatiuon and exaggeration hurt jews' is the one that says, some Jews were actively part of the lying, whilst others were stupid / paranoid enough to believe the hype, they were fooled by all those headlines into being scared when they had no reason to be. And that (very commonly repeated idea) is condescending as hell, imo.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 16, 2020)

bimble said:


> I get what you were asking - You're saying how come - if I have said myself that I wish the daily mail etc would stop using jews to attack Corbyn - how can I then complain when Corbyn himself says that the weaponsiation (in combination with whatever else) is what hurt jews?
> 
> The 'weaponisation' did hurt me, it made me angry and sad, I think it has also led to an increase in antisemitism, but in saying all of that I'm just speaking for myself, Corbyn was speaking for.. Jewish people in his statement? It felt, to me, just totally inappropriate for him to respond to the report with a claim about what combination of things 'hurt jews and must never be repeated'. It's not his job to tell Jews what hurt them.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the reply
I hear your point but I think you're projecting on to him what you want rather than taking his concern at face value. You "guessed" at his meaning, to me it sounds like the only response possible. You "guessed" "faux concern", I see genuine concern, just as we are all upset and concerned by what has happened


----------



## bimble (Dec 16, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Thanks for the reply
> I hear your point but I think you're projecting on to him what you want rather than taking his concern at face value. You "guessed" at his meaning, to me it sounds like the only response possible


What do you mean it seems like the only response possible?
Loads of jews feel very differently from me, obviously. The ones who wrote the existential threat headlines for instance.
If  he meant exactly the same kind of hurt as I’ve been describing for myself then he’ll have been wrong about a whole load of other Jews won’t he. 
I just think It was a mistake to pontificate in a confusing way about what combination of things hurt jews. Didn’t help anyone him saying that did it.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 16, 2020)

bimble said:


> What do you mean it seems like the only response possible?


How does his full response differ from what you would want him to say?
Try reading the statement and taking it as sincere. Do you still have a problem with it?


----------



## brogdale (Dec 16, 2020)

The fact that Corbyn's words in response to the report's publication are so open to interpretation is a metric of his political misjudgement of the moment.

If, he really wanted to acknowledge that there had been (& is) antisemitism within the LP and, also that he believes the extent of that has been exaggerated by political his opponents & taken together, those realities have hurt* Jews...he could have been far less ambiguous in his expression.

* tbf to Corbyn the report itself does refer to the hurt caused by antisemitism, so his use of the word does not seem wildly inappropriate.


----------



## bimble (Dec 16, 2020)

I have read it loads of times. It’s not really very important and anyhow I did take care to say that this is how his statement made me feel. That I wasn’t theorising as to what he meant just how it felt to me, one person.


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 16, 2020)

Why is bimble having to tread on eggshells for the posters here?


----------



## bimble (Dec 16, 2020)

It’s ok I have good shoes.


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 16, 2020)

Chilango’s quote from the other thread works equally well here:



chilango said:


> Was trying to write a more eloquent strategical critique, but gave up. Instead, Fuck Corbyn, fuck The Canary, Fuck the Labour Party. It really is time to move on and leave the cranks and the careerists squabbling over the wreckage. There's nothing to be gained but "taint" from hanging around that scene anymore.


----------



## hitmouse (Dec 17, 2020)

This has some good serious stuff in: Anti-Racism as Procedure 


_A racism conceived of only as extreme speech acts, as individual crimes, as words and thoughts can never confront the worst work of “race.” This severing of racism in Britain from its roots in colonialism and from the power of the state would help to define it as a timeless, transhistorical phenomenon that could be directed by any individual against any other individual, regardless of social position.

—

A common refrain in recent years has been references to the Labour Party’s “anti-racist” history and traditions. This mythology has been used by those on the center and right of the Party to cast what they saw as the specific antisemitism of the Corbyn era as an aberration. Labour’s “anti-racism” was also spoken of by many on the left of the Party to defend the socialist traditions from which Corbynism emerged. But any claim that the Labour Party, at any point in its history, has been definitively anti-racist comes from the same historical amnesia as the EHRC’s starting point of British “tolerance.” The left in Britain, generally speaking, is remarkably blind, complacent, and moralistic in its approach to racism, which desperately needs to change. Class formation, divisions of labour, electoral coalitions, and national identity are deeply tied to processes of race-making and British white supremacy. 

There has been antisemitism and racism across every part of British politics over the course of Labour’s so-called crisis. Britain is a deeply racist and antisemitic country. From the very start, however, the issue was framed almost exclusively in the context of Jeremy Corbyn winning the leadership of the Labour Party. Corbyn’s shock victory for the left of the Party represented an embarrassment and a threat to most of the Party’s MPs, other political parties, and a uniformly and cartoonishly hostile press. A barely concealed civil war raged over the last five years with constant revolts against Corbyn’s leadership and a ceaseless media barrage against him and his supporters. With discussion about antisemitism and racism framed through the prism of Corbyn’s Labour, it could never escape its reduction to a proxy debate, a proxy war. Lines were drawn early, with most involved seeking to confirm or justify what they had already decided. Labour’s so-called “antisemitism scandal” became a battleground for ongoing cycles of rupture, played out across old and new media. It interacted with Twitter’s “take” economy — most evidence in the EHRC report was gleaned from social media — but also showcased the enduring power of legacy media to dominate the agenda and set the terms of debate. 

Boxing in the issue of antisemitism within one political party’s power struggle has done immense damage to the cause of anti-racism. It has continually reduced important and complex issues surrounding antisemitism (including left antisemitism), Palestine solidarity and liberation, racism and anti-racism, to matters of internal party management. Internal power struggles, in one of Britain’s two political parties of state, in the exemplar imperial power of modern history, could never be the appropriate context in which to fight racism or gain clarity on how it functions. The unserious, hysterical, and instrumental ways this farce has been conducted is itself dangerous to Jews. After years of turmoil, and interminable “debate,” the very mention of antisemitism increasingly invites scorn from casual observers who are now tired of hearing about it. 

Antisemitism is an incredibly adaptable, at times ambiguous, form of racism. Often mobilized today through symbolism, tropes, winks, and nudges, people can often unintentionally reproduce its discourses.  Some Jewish people have been targeted for collective responsibility over these five years — a clear form of racism. Many Jews have been associated with or made responsible for the state of Israel by people of varying political stripes. For many Jews, there has been genuine hurt and worry about antisemitism. And there have been enough instances of real antisemitism, if one’s attention is called to all of them, to warrant such worry. 

Much of the antisemitism on the left today and in parts of Corbynism comes from networks utterly suffused with conspiratorial, underdeveloped, foreshortened, or overdetermined ideas about power, capital, and world affairs. Such discourses can easily slip in and out of antisemitism, or simply prepare worldviews for it, and are part of a much wider phenomenon of online cultures of conspiracy theorizing that are not exclusively “left wing.”_


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 17, 2020)

The ERHC needs taking down - it's top-down multi-cultural filth. But how can i oppose one thing at the same time as i oppose another?


----------



## tim (Dec 21, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> He’s (thankfully) not in the LP anymore, but Chris Williamson is continuing to be his charming self.




I'm surprised this prick hasn't got a thread of his own. Does he deserve one?

Anyway, having been "coerced" into voting for the military overthrow of Gadaffi, he's now discovered how amazing Gadaffi and his murderous regime actually were.


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 21, 2020)

He’ll be ringing up LBC next to talk about the great replacement


----------



## brogdale (Dec 21, 2020)

tim said:


> I'm surprised this prick hasn't got a thread of his own. Does he deserve one?
> 
> Anyway, having been "coerced" into voting for the military overthrow of Gadaffi, he's now discovered how amazing Gadaffi and his murderous regime actually were.



So retro...


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 21, 2020)

brogdale said:


> So retro...
> 
> View attachment 244595


the man on the right killed fewer people


----------



## bimble (Dec 21, 2020)

He did have great outfits though.


----------



## tim (Dec 21, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> the man on the right killed fewer people




It's not the winning but the taking part that counts


----------



## brogdale (Dec 21, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> the man on the right killed fewer people


possibly by a factor of >100


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 21, 2020)

bimble said:


> He did have great outfits though.


he killed fewer people than tony blair but he did wear great outfits. why the though?


----------



## cantsin (Dec 21, 2020)

tim said:


> I'm surprised this prick hasn't got a thread of his own. Does he deserve one?
> 
> Anyway, having been "coerced" into voting for the military overthrow of Gadaffi, he's now discovered how amazing Gadaffi and his murderous regime actually were.




Williamson’s a spineless fraud


----------



## Knotted (Dec 23, 2020)

cantsin said:


> Williamson’s a spineless fraud



I always assumed he jumped on the Corbynista bandwagon because he sensed it was where the LP were going at the time and he could carve out a niche rallying the troupes saying whatever he thought might appeal to them. Now he's playing the ex-Labour circuit with the high concentration of loons. An opportunist with no political nowse.


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 23, 2020)

Used to be a social worker


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 23, 2020)

But he’s alright now-ow-ow-oooooooh!


----------



## frogwoman (Dec 23, 2020)

Williamson is red fash tbh.


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 23, 2020)

frogwoman said:


> Williamson is red fash tbh.





MadeInBedlam said:


> Used to be a social worker



Yea well


----------



## hitmouse (Dec 23, 2020)

danny la rouge said:


> But he’s alright now-ow-ow-oooooooh!


It took me ages to realise that was a werewolf joke, I kept on reading it as you doing a Joe Strummer impression.


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 23, 2020)

hitmouse said:


> It took me ages to realise that was a werewolf joke, I kept on reading it as you doing a Joe Strummer impression.


The joke being he’s _not_ alright now-oooh. He’s a red/brown dick.


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 23, 2020)

Although I’m flattered I remind you of Joe Strummer.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Dec 23, 2020)

danny la rouge said:


> He’s a red/brown dick.


Probably wants to get that looked at


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 23, 2020)

DaveCinzano said:


> Probably wants to get that looked at


I’m hoping it goes septic.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Dec 23, 2020)

danny la rouge said:


> I’m hoping it goes septic.


Typical atlantacist


----------



## cantsin (Dec 26, 2020)

Knotted said:


> I always assumed he jumped on the Corbynista bandwagon because he sensed it was where the LP were going at the time and he could carve out a niche rallying the troupes saying whatever he thought might appeal to them. Now he's playing the ex-Labour circuit with the high concentration of loons. An opportunist with no political nowse.



he was a known ' Blairite' , voted for cuts on Derby council etc .... I guess people can go on political journeys in middle age / any age, and over relatively short periods of time , eg : Steve Topple might have been an A/S conspira crank in 2014, and not now etc etc...but haven't really seen it happen much from personal experience, IRL, or even on here ( with the odd notable exception - but the direction of travel had become pretty obvs imo )

( and, erm, do accept the irony of having been personally ground down by persistent reason /evidence / argument on here re : some  left Lab related matters...but consider this partic ' journey' to be within a fairly narrow ideological / political landscape, and anyway, am,  a :  just some blurt on interweb, not a self proclaimed standard bearer , and , b : slightly pissed  )


----------



## Shechemite (Jan 6, 2021)

So some mad racist yoga teacher has had a tantrum about journalists committing the appalling act of discussing the mad racist (public) comments of the yoga teacher. Some daft labour MPs have joined in this latest round of ‘anti-racism’ (ie supporting the mad racist yoga teacher). Can’t help themselves

Emma Barnett responds after Kelechi Okafor drops out over ‘vile’ Woman’s Hour comments


----------



## cantsin (Jan 6, 2021)

This Kelechi character sounded like a dishonest, A/S asshole , running on to twitter to claim she'd just been ' violently' treated etc , while ( the awful ) Barnett + co were just on air - but can you point us to the Labour MPs that have backed her ?

edit ;  found her :  Chi Onwurah, and v surprised to see she hasn't withdrawn her initial comment of support for Kelechi
edit 2 : R4 / Barnett doing no one any favours by giving the excecrable Lionel Shriver a free pass for her anti BLM / MeToo gubbins on the show that followed


----------



## Shechemite (Jan 6, 2021)

That I can see it’s eshalomi and onruwah. They’ve gone with ‘diversity of voices being silenced’ schtick. Daft sods.


----------



## Shechemite (Jan 6, 2021)

Right charmer. Definitely someone to rally round Kelechi Okafor


----------



## 19force8 (Mar 1, 2021)

Emilie Oldknow lost her case to force the Labour Party to reveal who leaked 'that' report [hint: they don't know] and has been ordered to pay Labour's costs and possibly those of Unite who instructed the remarkably expensive Carter Fuck. Also not allowed to appeal.


----------



## 19force8 (Mar 2, 2021)

Slight correction to the above. It seems the judge specifically ordered Unite's costs paid. The shocker* in this tweet is that Labour hardly put up a defence.

* no shock at all


----------



## MrSki (Mar 2, 2021)

> failed to offer an effective opposition.


 The Judge was taking the piss.


----------



## zahir (Mar 27, 2021)

I'm not sure if this is the right thread but here's a proposal for an alternative to the IHRA definition of anti-semitism:









						The Jerusalem Declaration on Antisemitism | JDA
					

The Jerusalem Declaration The Jerusalem Declaration On Antisemitism On Antisemitism The Jerusalem Declaration on Antisemitism is a tool to identify, confront and raise awareness about antisemitism as it manifests in countries around the world today. It includes a preamble, definition, and a set...




					jerusalemdeclaration.org


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 27, 2021)

Been reading that. In many ways better than the IHRA.  Thought they should have included the ‘inequitable conditions’ component that’s in the nexus document


----------



## Knotted (Mar 27, 2021)

Point 15 is exactly right IMO.


----------



## MrSki (May 4, 2021)

This will put the cat amongst the pigeons.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 4, 2021)

MrSki said:


> This will put the cat amongst the pigeons.



Only wankers say penned


----------



## killer b (May 4, 2021)

'From a foreword to a forthcoming study on the EHRC's failings produced by Jewish Voice for Labour' it says, further down that thread. 

I'd guess it's probably going to have... limited impact.


----------



## Shechemite (May 4, 2021)

Surprised to see JVL are still going.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 4, 2021)

killer b said:


> 'From a foreword to a forthcoming study on the EHRC's failings produced by Jewish Voice for Labour' it says, further down that thread.
> 
> I'd guess it's probably going to have... limited impact.


All books have limited impact


----------



## danny la rouge (May 4, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Only wankers say penned


The word is authored.

😐


----------



## Shechemite (May 4, 2021)

I guess authoring a love letter is less romantic than having penned one


----------



## Jay Park (May 4, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> All books have limited impact



Unless dropped from a great height


----------



## Jay Park (May 4, 2021)

DaveCinzano said:


> Probably wants to get that looked at



depends whether it's solicited or not


----------



## Raheem (May 4, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> The word is authored.
> 
> 😐


It's wrote.


----------



## danny la rouge (May 4, 2021)

Raheem said:


> It's wrote.


OK Ernie.


----------



## BillRiver (May 4, 2021)

Jay Park said:


> Unless dropped from a great height




Still limited. Laws of gravity, etc.


----------



## Raheem (May 4, 2021)

BillRiver said:


> Still limited. Laws of gravity, etc.


Could design some sort of ballista.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 4, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Could design some sort of ballista.


Or bomb


----------



## Jay Park (May 4, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Or bomb



or get the Chinese rag-tag space unit to land something weighty and sharp, like they did on Le Coate d'Ivoire


----------



## Shechemite (May 4, 2021)

The possibilities are limitless


----------



## BillRiver (May 4, 2021)

All still limited though.


----------



## Jay Park (May 5, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> OK Ernie.



you mean Hem-bags?


----------



## danny la rouge (May 5, 2021)

Jay Park said:


> you mean Hem-bags?


Wise.


----------



## Raheem (May 5, 2021)

BillRiver said:


> All still limited though.


Well, there's the speed of light at the end of the day.


----------



## Jay Park (May 5, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> Wise.



ah


----------



## killer b (May 5, 2021)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Surprised to see JVL are still going.


they're like those japanese soldiers who refused to believe the war was over.


----------



## Shechemite (May 5, 2021)

I see there’s someone from the institute for race relations involved in the book launch 

got to love that anti racist solidarity


----------



## splonkydoo (May 20, 2021)

This has a really nasty and unhinged undertone


----------



## platinumsage (May 20, 2021)

splonkydoo said:


> This has a really nasty and unhinged undertone
> 
> View attachment 269340



His tweet below makes his antisemitism clear:







__





						Jewish parasite - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## Shechemite (May 20, 2021)

Has he had a breakdown or something?


----------



## GarveyLives (Jul 23, 2021)

GarveyLives said:


> Can anyone clarify exactly what Mr Wadsworth said or did that led to his expulsion?
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> ​





Veteran anti-racism campaigner, journalist and broadcaster, *Marc Wadsworth*, has won his libel case against the Jewish Chronicle, with the newspaper agreeing to pay “substantial compensation” and issue an apology:

Jewish Chronicle pays damages and apologises in open court to Wadsworth for smears






*"I was deeply distressed that The Jewish Chronicle did not check its facts or contact me before its article was written. Instead, it chose to publish serious and unfounded allegations, linking me with potential criminality, which go to the heart of my reputation as a journalist and long-standing campaigner against racism."*


----------



## glitch hiker (Jul 23, 2021)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Has he had a breakdown or something?


Dunno, but Rod Driver is an amazing name


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 23, 2021)

GarveyLives said:


> Veteran anti-racism campaigner, journalist and broadcaster, *Marc Wadsworth*, has won his libel case against the Jewish Chronicle, with the newspaper agreeing to pay “substantial compensation” and issue an apology:
> 
> Jewish Chronicle pays damages and apologises in open court to Wadsworth for smears
> 
> ...



He's been appallingly treated by the Jewish Chronicle. He should not have had to have gone through all the stress of taking this paper on. I'm disgusted by how the paper treated him.


----------



## MrSki (Jul 23, 2021)

I am not sure who is funding the JC but they seem to have to pay a fuck load of libel fees. Surely they can't be making a profit with those extra costs.


----------



## Whagwan (Aug 11, 2021)

It was bought it out by a consortium including Robbie Gibb and John Woodcock wasn't it?


----------



## Idris2002 (Sep 24, 2021)

Mrs. Idris just sent me this - what do you lot reckon?









						A left response to left antisemitism: Is it too late for education? - JewThink
					

Two recently-published books try and educate the left against antisemitism. Will they succeed?



					www.jewthink.org
				




The trouble with relying on political education for this sort of thing is that requires an audience who are willing to be educated. . .


----------



## belboid (Sep 24, 2021)

Idris2002 said:


> Mrs. Idris just sent me this - what do you lot reckon?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Haven't had time to read it properly, but I've always been put off anything by Daniel Randall after his amusingly bad contributions to these boards ten/godevenmorethanthat years ago.  And David Renton isn't in the Labour Party. 

Otherwise, education _can be_ good, if it splits the willing from the unwilling to learn.


----------



## Dom Traynor (Sep 25, 2021)

Idris2002 said:


> Mrs. Idris just sent me this - what do you lot reckon?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Is that Keith Harris with Orville in a yarmulke teaching unhinged mouth frothing PSC types why racism is bad?


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 25, 2021)

belboid said:


> Haven't had time to read it properly, but I've always been put off anything by Daniel Randall after his amusingly bad contributions to these boards ten/godevenmorethanthat years ago.  And David Renton isn't in the Labour Party.
> 
> Otherwise, education _can be_ good, if it splits the willing from the unwilling to learn.


Tbf, Randall would've been a lot younger ten/more than that years ago. He's always seemed fairly decent to me - admittedly, he is a trot and a Labour Party trot to boot, but that's not the end of the world. I might try reading his book at some point. And with Starmer's bannings, I'd guess there's a good chance that neither DR is still an actual Labour member at this point, sure they tried kicking him out back in the very first Corbyn-era purges.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Sep 27, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> He's been appallingly treated by the Jewish Chronicle. He should not have had to have gone through all the stress of taking this paper on. I'm disgusted by how the paper treated him.



The JC is one of the most racist hate rags in this country, just garbage. Up their with the Mail and Express.


----------



## teqniq (Feb 8, 2022)

Quite a result for her. In the tweet below the one i got the article from someone is saying there are currently 46 Jewish people under investigation for antisemitism.









						Labour drops case against Jewish woman for alleged antisemitism
					

Diana Neslen threatened to sue over investigation into tweets she posted about Israel and Zionism




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## ska invita (Feb 8, 2022)

teqniq said:


> Quite a result for her. In the tweet below the one i got the article from someone is saying there are currently 46 Jewish people under investigation for antisemitism.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


and then theres all those who have already been booted out.
i hope this opens up the floodgates of counterclaims


----------



## hitmouse (Feb 8, 2022)

teqniq said:


> Quite a result for her. In the tweet below the one i got the article from someone is saying there are currently 46 Jewish people under investigation for antisemitism.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's mentioned in the article:
"Neslen called on Labour to withdraw complaints against other party members under similar investigation. Jewish Voice for Labour, of which Neslen is a member, says it knows of 46 Jewish Labour members, two of whom have since died, who have faced or are facing disciplinary charges relating to allegations of antisemitism."


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Feb 9, 2022)

One of the celebs who whinged and cried a lot about opposition to the apartheid terrorism directed against the Palestinians being ‘racist’. Yeah, such genuine commitment to anti-racism:


----------



## 8ball (Feb 9, 2022)

Jeff Robinson said:


> One of the celebs who whinged and cried a lot about opposition to the apartheid terrorism directed against the Palestinians being ‘racist’. Yeah, such genuine commitment to anti-racism:




This bit he's done about a sperm sample relates to Israel's treatmet of the Palestinians? 
Or does this relate more to Rachel Riley?


----------



## Serge Forward (Feb 9, 2022)

Jeff Robinson said:


> One of the celebs who whinged and cried a lot about opposition to the apartheid terrorism directed against the Palestinians being ‘racist’. Yeah, such genuine commitment to anti-racism:



Don't know anything about his politics or pronouncements, but his comedy routine is shite and not at all funny.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Feb 9, 2022)

8ball said:


> This bit he's done about a sperm sample relates to Israel's treatmet of the Palestinians?
> Or does this relate more to Rachel Riley?


I think he means RR but I have no idea who she is........

.......so  I checked Rachel Riley wins £10,000 damages over Nazi tweet


----------



## hitmouse (Feb 9, 2022)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> I think he means RR but I have no idea who she is........
> 
> .......so  I checked Rachel Riley wins £10,000 damages over Nazi tweet


Riley is a proper weird obsessive prick:










						Rachel Riley's Jeremy Corbyn T-shirt morally wrong, photographer says
					

Photographer Rob Scott criticises the alteration of his 1984 image of the Labour leader.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## teqniq (Feb 9, 2022)

Yes, i know it's Squawkbox but still....









						Exclusive: Starmer ignored antisemitism complaints vs Coyle by prominent Jews incl knighted barrister and professor
					

Two lawyers and a professor submitted complaints to party and then to Starmer about Neil Coyle’s comments about left-wing Jews – and have been ignored Neil Coyle and Keir Starmer Keir S…




					skwawkbox.org


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Feb 9, 2022)

8ball said:


> This bit he's done about a sperm sample relates to Israel's treatmet of the Palestinians?
> Or does this relate more to Rachel Riley?



Rachel Riley. She’s referring to the set as a whole, which included the Holocaust joke.


----------



## danny la rouge (Feb 9, 2022)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Rachel Riley. She’s referring to the set as a whole, which included the Holocaust joke.


Which was a racist endeavour.


----------



## 19force8 (Feb 10, 2022)

Jeff Robinson said:


> One of the celebs who whinged and cried a lot about opposition to the apartheid terrorism directed against the Palestinians being ‘racist’. Yeah, such genuine commitment to anti-racism:



What's confusing me here is this tweet was five weeks old before anyone replies to it. In fact the video was put on Netflix on Boxing Day, but the complaints about the "joke" only started last week.


----------



## danny la rouge (Feb 10, 2022)

19force8 said:


> What's confusing me here is this tweet was five weeks old before anyone replies to it. In fact the video was put on Netflix on Boxing Day, but the complaints about the "joke" only started last week.


Because nobody had seen the routine.


----------



## hitmouse (Feb 10, 2022)

This isn't directly Labour or antisemitism-related, but suppose it might as well go here cos it's the closest thing we have to a Bored of Deputies thread:








						‘Get back on the plane’: Board condemns London visit of far-right Israeli leader
					

UK Jewish groups distance themselves from Bezalel Smotrich after he said he was visiting to meet rabbis and community leaders




					www.jewishnews.co.uk
				












						Under fire from mainstream UK Jews, Smotrich says ‘small group’ wants to silence him
					

Likud party decries 'blunt and shameful' statement by Jewish umbrella organization saying far-right MK is unwelcome in Britain




					www.timesofisrael.com
				




Maybe I've not been paying attention, but is this a pretty significant shift from the BoD? I can't really think of any previous instances of them telling the Israeli far-right to fuck off that bluntly. Or is this Smotrich actually more objectionable than some of the racist dicks that they've defended in the past?


----------



## 19force8 (Feb 10, 2022)

danny la rouge said:


> Because nobody had seen the routine.


On the contrary, I think lots of people must have seen it and just thought "bad taste joke about the holocaust, but that's okay because it's about gypsies not jews."


----------



## danny la rouge (Feb 10, 2022)

19force8 said:


> On the contrary, I think lots of people must have seen it and just thought "bad taste joke about the holocaust, but that's okay because it's about gypsies not jews."


Well, sure. That’s the problem. But I do think the time lag thing is a product of how television works in the streaming age.  I have Netflix and I didn’t even know that show was on there. (Not that I’d have watched anyway).  I think probably there was just minimal audience because there’s so much damn content out there.


----------



## 8ball (Feb 11, 2022)

danny la rouge said:


> Well, sure. That’s the problem. But I do think the time lag thing is a product of how television works in the streaming age.  I have Netflix and I didn’t even know that show was on there. (Not that I’d have watched anyway).  I think probably there was just minimal audience because there’s so much damn content out there.



Yeah, some of the stuff being recommended on the “things to watch on the ViewScreen” threads is stuff that’s been on there for a while.

Also, people with low levels of callousness are unlikely to watch a Jimmy Carr special.


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## Whagwan (Feb 11, 2022)

Coyle reported to the Speaker for Sinophobia which was another contributing factor to his bans from the Strangers bar.









						Henry Dyer: A personal statement on my interaction with Neil Coyle
					

Henry Dyer has accused Neil Coyle MP of racist abuse. This is his story in his words.




					www.businessinsider.com
				




Just goes to show the Labour party really don't give a shit about bigotry and racism


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## 8ball (Feb 11, 2022)

Whagwan said:


> Coyle reported to the Speaker for Sinophobia which was another contributing factor to his bans from the Strangers bar.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Haven’t they suspended him (Coyle)?


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## Cerv (Feb 11, 2022)

8ball said:


> Haven’t they suspended him (Coyle)?


they have. 









						Labour MP Neil Coyle suspended over racist comment claim
					

Neil Coyle apologises for "insensitive comments" after accusations from a British Chinese journalist.



					www.bbc.co.uk
				




but why let facts get in the way of taking a cheap shot?


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## andysays (Feb 11, 2022)

Cerv said:


> they have.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Can you please clarify who you're accusing of taking a cheap shot, and why?


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## DotCommunist (Feb 11, 2022)

the cheap shots are the ones coyle will no longer be enjoying at the house of commons bar.


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## 8ball (Feb 11, 2022)

andysays said:


> Can you please clarify who you're accusing of taking a cheap shot, and why?



Tbf I’m not sure the suspension had been announced at the time when Whagwan posted.


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## ska invita (Feb 11, 2022)

DotCommunist said:


> the cheap shots are the ones coyle will no longer be enjoying at the house of commons bar.


the politics of envy


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## Funky_monks (Feb 13, 2022)

danny la rouge said:


> Well, sure. That’s the problem. But I do think the time lag thing is a product of how television works in the streaming age.  I have Netflix and I didn’t even know that show was on there. (Not that I’d have watched anyway).  I think probably there was just minimal audience because there’s so much damn content out there.


I have Netflix, knew it was on there (before the joke made the press), but didn't watch it.

I still haven't.


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## Whagwan (Feb 14, 2022)

8ball said:


> Tbf I’m not sure the suspension had been announced at the time when Whagwan posted.



It hadn't, and as a British-Chinese excuse me for being slightly sensitive when Sinophobia has occurred.


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## likesfish (Feb 14, 2022)

Don't know if Carr was just being offensive. 
Or was, doing an Alf Garnet and pointing out people's bigatory


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## 19force8 (Feb 14, 2022)

likesfish said:


> Don't know if Carr was just being offensive.
> Or was, doing an Alf Garnet and pointing out people's bigatory


I strongly suspect the latter with the excuse that "it's a comedian's job to push boundaries and make us question our prejudices"

The problem with that is it's a very thin line to tread. Done well (Stewart Lee and James Acaster) it can be really effective, but done badly ("'til death us do part" & "love thy neighbour") it reinforces those prejudices and hurts people.

I haven't watched the show yet and I'd love to have my prejudices challenged, but I ain't holding out a lot of hope. Due in part to a strong dislike of Jimmy Carr


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## agricola (Feb 14, 2022)

likesfish said:


> Don't know if Carr was just being offensive.
> Or was, doing an Alf Garnet and pointing out people's bigatory



The first one.


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## TopCat (Feb 14, 2022)

Carr is a racist cunt.


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## likesfish (Feb 14, 2022)

took years to realise alf garnett was meant to be satire as mostly racist cunts were fans


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## platinumsage (Mar 14, 2022)

Chris Williamson’s chat show on Press TV:


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## Shechemite (Mar 14, 2022)

What happened to poor old cantsin? Must have gone completely mad by now


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## AmateurAgitator (Mar 14, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> Chris Williamson’s chat show on Press TV:



Jeezus christ. Nothing in any way far-right or dodgy about the Iranian theocracy though, oh no. Fucks sake.


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## Shechemite (Mar 15, 2022)

I remember Lowkey being lined up for a ‘mental health crisis’ rally. There is a certain grim irony there 





__





						Mental Health Crisis Summit – Keep Our NHS Public
					






					keepournhspublic.com


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## cantsin (Mar 17, 2022)

Shechemite said:


> What happened to poor old cantsin? Must have gone completely mad by now


tell you what, if I hadn't, this could help tip me over the edge : the thought of that twisted f*ck getting a peerage from a Tory govt for what he helped achieve, with exactly this kind of stuff, is hard to take...but of course job done, now, and doubt he'll be having to worry about the damages personally....









						Former MP Ian Austin apologises as £40k damages paid over false anti-semitism claim
					

A former Black Country MP has apologised to an ex-aide of Jeremy Corbyn over a newspaper column in which he branded her an anti-semitic racist.




					www.expressandstar.com


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## Shechemite (Mar 17, 2022)

Right


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## cantsin (Mar 17, 2022)

Shechemite said:


> Right


btw, not remembering you, and only having seen two posts of yours :  one suggesting I must have gone mad, the other implying Lowkey has mental health issues, am assuming ..... actually, sod it, fill yer boots, adios


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