# Racial stereotyping in US comedy



## Corax (Apr 2, 2014)

I was looking for some mindless crap comedy to supplement the episodes of Brooklyn 99 I've downloaded, and came across a recommendation in some 'best new comedies' list for _Dads_

As it happens, it's utter shit.

But more notable is the persistent racial stereotyping bollocks.  There's the middle-aged Mexican illegal immigrant housemaid of course - a feature in many US sitcoms it seems.  But in addition there are tons of tired racial stereotype 'jokes' that revolve around the Asian co-worker (pushy parents etc) and Seth Green's Jewish character (tight with money etc).  It's not done with an ounce of irony, it's simply bigot-bait as far as I can tell.

I can't imagine a mainstream British show doing this kind of shit these days.  Yet it seems to pass without comment over in the States.  

Am I looking at British output through rose-tinted glasses?  Or am I being overly PC?  Or do I not understand the cultural context properly?  Or is this kind of casual racism just more accepted in America?


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## Supine (Apr 2, 2014)

You know Brooklyn 99 is by the same people who did parks and rec don't you... Six series of that and it's brilliant


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## Corax (Apr 2, 2014)

Supine said:


> You know Brooklyn 99 is by the same people who did parks and rec don't you... Six series of that and it's brilliant


Yeah, _Brooklyn 99_ and _Parks & Rec_ are both good.  _Dads_ isn't.


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## Yuwipi Woman (Apr 2, 2014)

Corax said:


> I was looking for some mindless crap comedy to supplement the episodes of Brooklyn 99 I've downloaded, and came across a recommendation in some 'best new comedies' list for _Dads_
> 
> As it happens, it's utter shit.
> 
> ...



"Dads" has been quite controversial for exactly the things mentioned.  I'm surprised it made a "best new comedies" list.  Every review I read trashed it.  It makes most of the "sure to be cancelled" list along with nearly everything Foxx presented this year.


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## Corax (Apr 2, 2014)

Yuwipi Woman said:


> "Dads" has been quite controversial for exactly the things mentioned.


Glad to hear it tbh.


Yuwipi Woman said:


> I'm surprised it made a "best new comedies" list.


It was on a couple, which I why I d/l'd it.  IIRC they were both 'upcoming' lists (ie *expected* to be good) rather than reviews though.


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## classicdish (Apr 2, 2014)

Corax said:


> I can't imagine a mainstream British show doing this kind of shit these days.  Yet it seems to pass without comment over in the States.


Pretty much every single review listed by RottenTomatoes criticises it's racism and general shitness: http://www.rottentomatoes.com/tv/dads/


> Or is this kind of casual racism just more accepted in America?


See above.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Apr 2, 2014)

Corax said:


> I can't imagine a mainstream British show doing this kind of shit these days.





> The Labour politician Chuka Umunna has called on Britain's film and television industries to end the ethnic stereotyping which has forced Britain's leading black actors to quit the UK for Hollywood to pursue their careers.
> 
> Delivering a speech on social mobility, the Shadow Business Secretary echoed complaints by David Harewood, the Birmingham-born actor who starred in the hit US series _Homeland_, who said there were no strong roles for black actors in Britain.
> 
> ...



http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-e...zy-stereotypes-says-chuka-umunna-8915673.html


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## Garek (Apr 2, 2014)

He forgot killing Vampires


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## Yossarian (Apr 2, 2014)

Corax said:


> But more notable is the persistent racial stereotyping bollocks.  There's the middle-aged Mexican illegal immigrant housemaid of course - a feature in many US sitcoms it seems.  But in addition there are tons of tired racial stereotype 'jokes' that revolve around the Asian co-worker (pushy parents etc) and Seth Green's Jewish character (tight with money etc).  It's not done with an ounce of irony, it's simply bigot-bait as far as I can tell.



I don't think 'Dads' is typical - it's produced by Seth MacFarlane, creator of Family Guy. He can get away with lazy racist jokes in Family Guy because it's a cartoon and is supposedly poking fun at prejudice instead of minorities, not such an easy trick in something with real people.


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## Helen Daniels (Apr 2, 2014)

There just aren't any roles as Norse gods for black actors in Britain


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## Corax (Apr 2, 2014)

classicdish said:


> Pretty much every single review listed by RottenTomatoes criticises it's racism and general shitness: http://www.rottentomatoes.com/tv/dads/
> 
> See above.


That's grand - but tbh this was just an example extreme enough to have incited a thread.  I've noticed the same thing *to a lesser degree* with a fair few mainstream US comedies over the years.


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## Yuwipi Woman (Apr 2, 2014)

Corax said:


> Glad to hear it tbh.



There's still plenty of stereotyping going on, but at least its nothing as awful as "Dads."  Seth McFarlane has fallen flat with several things recently.  He was dis-invited from the Oscars with extreme prejudice this year.


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## Fez909 (Apr 2, 2014)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-e...zy-stereotypes-says-chuka-umunna-8915673.html


That's not limited to black actors. It's any British actors. There's just not enough quality telly in Britain these days and America is having a purple patch. It makes sense they'd move.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Apr 2, 2014)

Fez909 said:


> That's not limited to black actors. It's any British actors. There's just not enough quality telly in Britain these days and America is having a purple patch. It makes sense they'd move.



Interesting to hear your opinion; but that black Labour MP seems to disagree with you.


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## Fez909 (Apr 2, 2014)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Interesting to hear your opinion; but that black Labour MP seems to disagree with you.


Nothing I have said contradicts what he said, so you're wrong to state he disagrees.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Apr 2, 2014)

I've been watching - and enjoying - a number of British TV series on Netflix for the last while. To my observation, if there's any black characters in a series at all, there will be one token character, usually not well developed. I'm sure there are examples that contradict. But British tv in this respect seems to be about where US tv was in the Seventies.


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## Fez909 (Apr 2, 2014)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> I've been watching - and enjoying - a number of British TV series on Netflix for the last while. To my observation, if there's any black characters in a series at all, there will be one token character, usually not well developed. I'm sure there are examples that contradict. But British tv in this respect seems to be about where US tv was in the Seventies.


I am not saying that TV in Britain is without problems. I just don't think it's as bad as you're making out. Especially the ridiculous comparison with 70s USA.


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## Corax (Apr 2, 2014)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> I've been watching - and enjoying - a number of British TV series on Netflix for the last while. To my observation, if there's any black characters in a series at all, there will be one token character, usually not well developed. I'm sure there are examples that contradict. But British tv in this respect seems to be about where US tv was in the Seventies.


Cheers Johnny - interesting perspective and I'll look for that. Do you think there's a difference between the portrayal of different ethnicities? On reflection the stuff I noticed on US telly seemed mainly confined to 'asians' and the Jewish.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Apr 2, 2014)

Fez909 said:


> I just don't think it's as bad as you're making out. Especially the ridiculous comparison with 70s USA.



Maybe; but when black people in your own country [the labour MP] tell you things about racism there, you should listen to them.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Apr 2, 2014)

Corax said:


> Cheers Johnny - interesting perspective and I'll look for that. Do you think there's a difference between the portrayal of different ethnicities?.



The details of the stereotyping are of course different. But I think that stereotypical portrayals of Asians in US media still has some greater acceptance than similar stereotyping of blacks or Jews. And then there's the portrayal of Muslims - a whole other kettle of fish.


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## Fez909 (Apr 2, 2014)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Maybe; but when black people in your own country [the labour MP] tell you things about racism there, you should listen to them.


That's fair enough.


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## 8ball (Apr 2, 2014)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> I've been watching - and enjoying - a number of British TV series on Netflix for the last while. To my observation, if there's any black characters in a series at all, there will be one token character, usually not well developed. I'm sure there are examples that contradict. But British tv in this respect seems to be about where US tv was in the Seventies.


 
First 3 that come to mind are Moss from the IT crowd, Porkpie from Desmond's and Bernard Black from Black Books (bit of a fail on the part of my internal search engine there).  I think those are all 'developed' characters.


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## eatmorecheese (Apr 2, 2014)

Yossarian said:


> I don't think 'Dads' is typical - it's produced by Seth MacFarlane, creator of Family Guy. He can get away with lazy racist jokes in Family Guy because it's a cartoon and is supposedly poking fun at prejudice instead of minorities, not such an easy trick in something with real people.



Yep, this is Seth MacFarlane's obsession with racial stereotypes, evidenced in his cartoons for years. It's bloody tiresome and unfunny, but not sure if it's typical of a wider trend because I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to TV.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Apr 2, 2014)

8ball said:


> First 3 that come to mind are Moss from the IT crowd, Porkpie from Desmond's and Bernard Black from Black Books (bit of a fail on the part of my internal search engine there).  I think those are all 'developed' characters.



The ones coming immediately to my mind are a character in Mi5, or was it called Spooks there; the kid in Misfits; the girl in Being Human; and the token black guy in that series about the SAS with the bald guy out of the juice or cereal commercial or something.


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## 8ball (Apr 2, 2014)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> The ones coming immediately to my mind are a character in Mi5, or was it called Spooks there; the kid in Misfits; the girl in Being Human; and the token black guy in that series about the SAS with the bald guy out of the juice or cereal commercial or something.


 
Ah - don't watch any of those.  Actually, did watch a bit of Being Human - do you mean the girl who's a ghost?  She doesn't seem like a token character, she's one of the main three characters around which everything happens isn't she?


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Apr 2, 2014)

8ball said:


> Ah - don't watch any of those.  Actually, did watch a bit of Being Human - do you mean the girl who's a ghost?  She doesn't seem like a token character, she's one of the main three characters around which everything happens isn't she?



She's also the ditzy, stupid and emotional character who is constantly getting everyone into trouble.


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## Yossarian (Apr 2, 2014)

eatmorecheese said:


> Yep, this is Seth MacFarlane's obsession with racial stereotypes, evidenced in his cartoons for years. It's bloody tiresome and unfunny, but not sure if it's typical of a wider trend because I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to TV.



Seth MacFarlane seems to have an uncanny ability to get away with stuff - some shows might have been questioned for having a white actor voice the only major black character, MacFarlane managed to get him his own spinoff.


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## 8ball (Apr 2, 2014)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> She's also the ditzy, stupid and emotional character who is constantly getting everyone into trouble.


 
I didn't watch that many episodes but the ones I saw she seemed mostly the together one while the werewolf and the vampire were off having crises.  In any case, would being ditzy etc. make her a token character (the way you've said it makes it sound like a bit of a sexist stereotype, but you get that in main characters as well as bit parts)?


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Apr 2, 2014)

8ball said:


> I didn't watch that many episodes but the ones I saw she seemed mostly the together one while the werewolf and the vampire were off having crises.  In any case, would being ditzy etc. make her a token character (the way you've said it makes it sound like a bit of a sexist stereotype, but you get that in main characters as well as bit parts)?



Yeah, but she caused the really big fuckups. You could be right, though, it's a sexist stereotype who happens to be brown with a bit of an accent.


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## Orang Utan (Apr 2, 2014)

Asians are portrayed in very stereotypical ways in US in quite a few sitcoms and films in a way you wouldn't get away with over here. Cf The Simpsons, Big Bang Theory, Short Circuit, The Love Guru etc


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## Orang Utan (Apr 2, 2014)

8ball said:


> First 3 that come to mind are Moss from the IT crowd, Porkpie from Desmond's and Bernard Black from Black Books (bit of a fail on the part of my internal search engine there).  I think those are all 'developed' characters.


Bernard Black?


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## Orang Utan (Apr 2, 2014)

Fez909 said:


> That's not limited to black actors. It's any British actors. There's just not enough quality telly in Britain these days and America is having a purple patch. It makes sense they'd move.


Many successful British black actors have had to emigrate to the US to get work: Idris Elba, Marianne Jean-Baptiste, David Hardwood, Adrian Lester, Chiwetal Eijofor, David Oyelowo, Naomi Harris, Adewale Akinnuoye-Agbaje etc


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## 8ball (Apr 2, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> Many successful British black actors have had to emigrate to the US to get work: Idris Elba, Marianne Jean-Baptiste, David Hardwood, Adrian Lester, Chiwetal Eijofor, David Oyelowo, Naomi Harris, Adewale Akinnuoye-Agbaje etc


 
They _had_ to emigrate?  There have been lots of white British actors also getting work in the States for ages.


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## Orang Utan (Apr 2, 2014)

8ball said:


> They _had_ to emigrate?  There have been lots of white British actors also getting work in the States for ages.


To get better parts, yes.


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## Corax (Apr 2, 2014)

8ball said:


> Ah - don't watch any of those.  Actually, did watch a bit of Being Human - do you mean the girl who's a ghost?  She doesn't seem like a token character, she's one of the main three characters around which everything happens isn't she?


I don't think Curtis in Misfits is token either. Yeah, he's a bit of a 'lad', but so are lots of the other male roles. And he's far from being the only significant non-white character either.


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## 8ball (Apr 2, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> To get better parts, yes.


 
Are you saying it's the same or different to what a lot of British black actors have been doing?


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## Corax (Apr 2, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> To get better parts, yes.


As 8ball says, so have white actors. Is it a race thing? 

That's not loaded btw - I genuinely don't know.


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## Orang Utan (Apr 2, 2014)

8ball said:


> Are you saying it's the same or different to what a lot of British black actors have been doing?


I was only talking about Black actors. Interview after interview, it is mentioned.
Lenny Henry was recently complaining about the lack of decent roles on British TV. 
My sister gave up acting after auditioning for too many prostitute/beaten down mother roles.


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## Orang Utan (Apr 2, 2014)

Corax said:


> As 8ball says, so have white actors. Is it a race thing?
> 
> That's not loaded btw - I genuinely don't know.


Read the interviews. I am only reporting what I have read and what I've been told. I believe them. Of course they're right. It's howlingly obvious that minorities are inadequately represented.


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## 8ball (Apr 2, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> Read the interviews. I am only reporting what I have read and what I've been told. I believe them. Of course they're right. It's howlingly obvious that minorities are inadequately represented.


 
Which ones aside from the Lenny Henry one (that one has a couple of interesting stats but they are unfortunately unsourced)?


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## Yuwipi Woman (Apr 2, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> Asians are portrayed in very stereotypical ways in US in quite a few sitcoms and films in a way you wouldn't get away with over here. Cf The Simpsons, Big Bang Theory, Short Circuit, The Love Guru etc



All of the characters in Big Bang Theory are a stereotype of a different segment of US society in one way or another.  I'd go so far as to suggest that it was a deliberate choice on their part.  Big Bang Theory can be understood a bit like Gilligan's Island could be understood.  It used stereotypes to make fun of class distinctions.  Big Bang Theory makes fun of the current state of American society in a similar way.


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## Orang Utan (Apr 2, 2014)

8ball said:


> Which ones aside from the Lenny Henry one (that one has a couple of interesting stats but they are unfortunately unsourced)?


Most of the names I mentioned earlier. 
A friend who is half Pakistani/half English finds better roles in the US (but no green card and he had to Anglicise his name  )


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## Orang Utan (Apr 2, 2014)

Yuwipi Woman said:


> All of the characters in Big Bang Theory are a stereotype of a different segment of US society in one way or another.  I'd go so far as to suggest that it was a deliberate choice on their part.  Big Bang Theory can be understood a bit like Gilligan's Island could be understood.  It used stereotypes to make fun of class distinctions.  Big Bang Theory makes fun of the current state of American society in a similar way.


I've not watched it much as I don't like it, but i was struck by the portrayal of the Asian character in that


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## 8ball (Apr 2, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> I've not watched it much as I don't like it, but i was struck by the portrayal of the Asian character in that


 
Wonder if they show it in India...


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## Corax (Apr 2, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> I've not watched it much as I don't like it, but i was struck by the portrayal of the Asian character in that


As was I. 

There's more than one conversation going on here, and they're getting intermingled. The portrayals of different ethnicities isn't all the same just because they're all non-white.


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## 8ball (Apr 2, 2014)

What would explain a fall in the general proportion of ethnic minorities in the TV industry as a whole?

A lot of the media seems to involve people increasingly from well-off backgrounds due to connections, not needing a secure paycheck and unpaid internships - that seems to be something that may have got worse...


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## Fez909 (Apr 2, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> Many successful British black actors have had to emigrate to the US to get work: Idris Elba, Marianne Jean-Baptiste, David Hardwood, Adrian Lester, Chiwetal Eijofor, David Oyelowo, Naomi Harris, Adewale Akinnuoye-Agbaje etc


Idris Elba went to America to play a drug dealer. Hardly breaking out of stereotypical roles that we're talking about. The quality of the writing is what got him noticed so he could get other roles. That quality is unparalleled in any other TV show ever. Dominic West was a similar supporting cast actor until he was on the Wire and then he was in Hollywood films and whatever else. I don't know who the others are but I'll Google them now.


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## Orang Utan (Apr 2, 2014)

Why are you so dubious about this?


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## Yuwipi Woman (Apr 2, 2014)

8ball said:


> Wonder if they show it in India...



Yes.

BTW, the actor who plays that character was born in London.


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## Orang Utan (Apr 2, 2014)

Btw Elba lived in New York playing other film roles and theatre roles before playing Stringer Bell


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## Fez909 (Apr 2, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> Why are you so dubious about this?


It's the implication that this is a British problem. America has better telly and more of it, so they're bound to offer better roles. British telly is shite lately, with the odd exception. Most of which feature black actors in strong roles, IMO.

The Line of Duty, Utopia and Luther being the three that stick in my mind.


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## Yuwipi Woman (Apr 2, 2014)

Fez909 said:


> It's the implication that this is a British problem. America has better telly and more of it, so they're bound to offer better roles.



Dr. Who has even sucked lately.


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## Fez909 (Apr 2, 2014)

Yuwipi Woman said:


> Dr. Who has even sucked lately.


All the British actors are in America, that's why


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## Corax (Apr 2, 2014)

Fez909 said:


> It's the implication that this is a British problem. America has better telly and more of it, so they're bound to offer better roles. British telly is shite lately, with the odd exception. Most of which feature black actors in strong roles, IMO.
> 
> The Line of Duty, Utopia and Luther being the three that stick in my mind.


Either that, or you secretly love Hitler


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## Fez909 (Apr 2, 2014)

Corax said:


> Either that, or you secretly love Hitler


I do love Hitler, but I've no problem with Black people. It's the Jews I can't stand


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## Yuwipi Woman (Apr 2, 2014)

Fez909 said:


> All the British actors are in America, that's why



Your loss is our gain.


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## Orang Utan (Apr 2, 2014)

Fez909 said:


> I do love Hitler, but I've no problem with Black people. It's the Jews I can't stand


<a dry, hollow wind blows>


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## Fez909 (Apr 2, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> <a dry, hollow wind blows>


Just say it then...am I racist for thinking that minority casting isn't worse in Britain than it is in America?


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## 8ball (Apr 2, 2014)

Yuwipi Woman said:


> Yes.
> 
> BTW, the actor who plays that character was born in London.


 
Not enough homegrown stereotype-based work for British actors.


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## uk benzo (Apr 2, 2014)

For stereotypes,Hollywood can't get enough of the "Arab"


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## Casually Red (Apr 2, 2014)

8ball said:


> First 3 that come to mind are Moss from the IT crowd, Porkpie from Desmond's and Bernard Black from Black Books (bit of a fail on the part of my internal search engine there).  I think those are all 'developed' characters.



I watched that Luther series on and off. Thought it was pretty good. And that boss guy in Peepshow was done pretty brilliantly imho. My favourite character in it.


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## Corax (Apr 2, 2014)

Fez909 said:


> Just say it then...am I racist for thinking that minority casting isn't worse in Britain than it is in America?


Why say something, when you can just insinuate it and retain plausible deniability?


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## QueenOfGoths (Apr 2, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> Many successful British black actors have had to emigrate to the US to get work: Idris Elba, Marianne Jean-Baptiste, David Hardwood, Adrian Lester, Chiwetal Eijofor, David Oyelowo, Naomi Harris, Adewale Akinnuoye-Agbaje etc


I do agree with you, certainly in terms of TV and film though in the theatre black actors do seem to fare better.

 Adrian Lester has had a varied and very good theatre career including playing Henry V.


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## Orang Utan (Apr 2, 2014)

Fez909 said:


> Just say it then...am I racist for thinking that minority casting isn't worse in Britain than it is in America?


No, just thought that crack was in poor taste


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## Orang Utan (Apr 3, 2014)

Corax said:


> Why say something, when you can just insinuate it and retain plausible deniability?


How uncalled for. I was suggesting no such thing. It's more to do with the fact that North Americans and British all like to think that they are less divided than the others, when in fact they all have gross divisions. They are just different.


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## Fez909 (Apr 3, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> No, just thought that crack was in poor taste


I got the impression you were already implying I was racist before I said that, and so did corax, clearly.


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## Orang Utan (Apr 3, 2014)

No just playing down inequality cos we Brits couldn't possibly as divided as the US.


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## ferrelhadley (Apr 3, 2014)

8ball said:


> Wonder if they show it in India...


They do. Do you think Indians are offended by being portrayed in the US as intelligent but socially awkward? Do you think the country of Chandra Bose and Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar might not take some pride in being seen as a nation that produces scientists?


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## 8ball (Apr 3, 2014)

ferrelhadley said:


> Do you think Indians are offended by being portrayed in the US as intelligent but socially awkward?


 
Most of the characters in that show are in that category, I don't think that's where the concerns over stereotyping lie.


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## ferrelhadley (Apr 3, 2014)

8ball said:


> Most of the characters in that show are in that category, I don't think that's where the concerns over stereotyping lie.


Tell me where your concern for India lies then.


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## 8ball (Apr 3, 2014)

ferrelhadley said:


> Tell me where your concern for India lies then.


 
That's a weird bit of phrasing - if you can rephrase I might be able to answer.


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## ferrelhadley (Apr 3, 2014)

8ball said:


> That's a weird bit of phrasing - if you can rephrase I might be able to answer.





> Wonder if they show it in India...


Open up to us, explain your thought process here.


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## 8ball (Apr 3, 2014)

ferrelhadley said:


> Open up to us, explain your thought process here.


 
I think my thought processes were largely focused on wondering whether they show it in India.

Given that Raj portrays himself as from a poor background and when Leonard points out his family has servants he says there were only four of them and two of them were children.  Wonder how that goes over coming from a US comedy show...


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## ferrelhadley (Apr 3, 2014)

8ball said:


> Given that Raj portrays himself as from a poor background and when Leonard points out his family has servants he says there were only four of them and two of them were children.  Wonder how that goes over coming from a US comedy show...


Thats your thought process watching Big Bang Theory! When American sitcoms are too subtle for you time to go back to Tom and Jerry.


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## Fez909 (Apr 3, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> No just playing down inequality cos we Brits couldn't possibly as divided as the US.


We're not as divided as the US. The US has black schools and white schools. Prisoners are separated by skin colour. If you look at demographic maps of cities, you can see clearly defined boundaries where housing for one ethnicity ends and where housing for another begins.


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## classicdish (Apr 3, 2014)

Some interesting links:

BBC executive says US TV industry is more favourable to ethnic minorities
(also look at the comments underneath where the BBC executive in question clarifies some things)

Diversity at the BBC

Industry census shows more women but less diversity


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## Agent Sparrow (Apr 3, 2014)

Yuwipi Woman said:


> All of the characters in Big Bang Theory are a stereotype of a different segment of US society in one way or another.  I'd go so far as to suggest that it was a deliberate choice on their part.  Big Bang Theory can be understood a bit like Gilligan's Island could be understood.  It used stereotypes to make fun of class distinctions.  Big Bang Theory makes fun of the current state of American society in a similar way.



As a white British woman (i.e. not Anerican or BME so perhaps a bit of an outsider perspective) I know the BBT pokes fun at different groups, but the heavy handed treatment of Raj's ethnicity in the early series was one of two things that made me really . The other, incidentally, were the cheap jokes regarding Amy's lesbian crush. I know that there were as many references to Howard's Jewishness as Raj's Indianness, but for some reason from my (admittedly outside) perspective the jokes didn't seem so clumsy and cringeworthy. I later read that one of the writers is Jewish and I wondered if that was what I was picking up on-that the Jewish references were more affectionate in jokes, whilst the Indian stuff was more clumsy externally imposed jokes. Alternatively I might just be less used to Jewish stereotypes in British TV. 

The British Misfits was brought up by others, and one thing I noticed is that it went from having two of the five main cast members being black (although one may have been mixed race), to an all white primary cast, which did make me a bit .


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## Orang Utan (Apr 3, 2014)

Fez909 said:


> We're not as divided as the US. The US has black schools and white schools. Prisoners are separated by skin colour. If you look at demographic maps of cities, you can see clearly defined boundaries where housing for one ethnicity ends and where housing for another begins.


Yes but we're more divided in other ways. Like in this instance.


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## spanglechick (Apr 3, 2014)

I think there are two issues at play: lack of casting in any kind of role for black actors, and stereotyping of black actors. 

I think Chukka Umanna's point is fair in terms of the first point.  America has a total of 33% black and black-mixed-race people, while the uk has only 5% and perhaps this is why there are proportionately fewer roles for black actors in our TV and films. For a huge chunk of the country- even in cities, black people in their day to day lives are a rarity, and casting tends to reflect that.  And yes, lots of Brit actors go to America anyway.  Dominic west, tim Roth, Damien Lewis, Andrew Lincoln, Steven Moyer, Gary old man lots of others... All making their big break or transferring their careers  there and generally by doing an American accent. There just is more work there, and while a scarcity of black casting makes it harder for black actors in the uk, it isn't the whole of the picture.  

But I don't think, especially in lead roles at least, the characters tend to conform to ethnic stereotypes.  Adrian Lester's biggest role has been in the British show Hustle, where he played an incredibly intelligent, highly educated, sophisticated con-man.  Leading a team of lesser talented white people.

I don't think I've seen Sophie Okenedo playing crack whores or the actress playing the put-upon bbc producer in W1A, whose name escapes me.   Other great examples have been given, and I'd refute that the black youth in the misfits was much of a stereotype: he was a serious-minded, straight-edger, eschewing booze and drugs to pursue his ambitions - getting caught by misunderstanding and bad luck.  Not some lad hanging our with a gang, churpsing the girls and dealing.  

Certainly it seems ironic to say that black flight to Hollywood is because of stereotyping (rather than general lack of parts) and then mention Elba, who played a drug dealer in The Wire.  

Minor roles do tend to be stereotyped to a greater degree, and I've no doubt that this is worse for black actors like OU's sister.  It is, however a broader fault of the casting process.  No large energy is spent casting small parts.  Little imagination is applied.  So you get visual shorthand: gang members: black, techy types: wear glasses, primary school teachers: mousy white women... Blah.  When I worked professionally I was only considered for harassed mums and mumsy nurses, because fat women can't be educated or corporate-professional in casting shorthand.  The industry can be shit.  Both sides of the Atlantic.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Apr 3, 2014)

spanglechick said:


> America has a total of 33% black and black-mixed-race people,.



Since when?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Apr 3, 2014)

It's a good thing that white Britons can recognize racism when it occurs elsewhere: viz, the US. What's unfortunate is their seeming inability to recognize it when it's occurring in their own back yard.


----------



## Supine (Apr 3, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> Lenny Henry was recently complaining about the lack of decent roles on British TV.



Lenny Henry had been on tv loads over the years. If he started to find it difficult its probably because people were bored of seeing him on screen rather than because of his skin colour.


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## Agent Sparrow (Apr 3, 2014)

The issue of casting for specific roles is an interesting one, because whilst there are some roles that lean towards a certain ethnic group (in regards to the cultural setting in which they're based/written), there must also be many roles where the actor's ethnicity  is more irrelevant and therefore casting really could be based on who is the better actor. And I suspect that is an area where BME actors can unfairly be overlooked, depending on the director. 

I remember one urbanite (not sure he still posts), who has worked in running and directing theatre, mention that he once cast a black actor in a non specified leading part, and had lots of questions regarding whether it was specified in the script, and if not why he had chosen to cast a black man, when the answer was just that the _actor_ was the best for the part  I wonder how often similar happens? I can think of a few programmes where this seems to be the case but many more where it doesn't seem to be.

I'm guessing in a completely nondiscriminatory  system there should be both types of casting, one to ensure that different cultures are represented within film and TV, but the non specific casting to make sure that BME actors aren't just cast for the  reasons of their ethnicity and that it isn't just white actors who are "norm".


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Apr 3, 2014)

Interesting to watch a parade of white Britons come onto this thread to explain how the black Labour MP in fact has it wrong.

I wonder who would know more about the reality of life as a black person in Britain?


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## Orang Utan (Apr 3, 2014)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Interesting to watch a parade of white Britons come onto this thread to explain how the black Labour MP in fact has it wrong.
> 
> I wonder who would know more about the reality of life as a black person in Britain?


Quite.


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## butchersapron (Apr 3, 2014)

The ambitious scumbag labour MPs point is actually far wider than the prevalence of racial stereotypes in british film and tv isn't he? When he ties the decline in BAME representation in film production to the decline in social mobility he therefore ties it to economic inequality - to class. He's identifying a phenomena and saying the cause of it is rising social and economic inequality.


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## Fez909 (Apr 3, 2014)

classicdish said:


> Some interesting links:
> 
> BBC executive says US TV industry is more favourable to ethnic minorities


He seems to back up a lot of things I've been saying in this thread.


> "In terms of the economics of being a black TV executive, I would have a much better career and a much more lucrative career in the States because the economics of the industry drive it that way," he said.
> 
> "First of all, the US has a bigger drama industry than we do here and secondly, African Americans make up one in eight of the population, there is an economic driver for the production companies and networks to include black actors.





> Younge said: "If you look at the last couple of years, Dancing on the Edge, Small Island, Luther, The Shadow Line, Line of Duty, Top Boy, it's not that there aren't parts, the challenge is in the writing.


By mentioning "TV industry", it sounds like he's talking more writers and executives, rather than actors and parts.


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## 8ball (Apr 3, 2014)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> It's a good thing that white Britons can recognize racism when it occurs elsewhere: viz, the US.


 
Well, some of them.


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## Lo Siento. (Apr 3, 2014)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> It's a good thing that white Britons can recognize racism when it occurs elsewhere: viz, the US. What's unfortunate is their seeming inability to recognize it when it's occurring in their own back yard.


I'd go as far to say that claiming a status as "the least racist country in the world" is fairly central to modern liberal British identity.


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## Orang Utan (Apr 3, 2014)

Lo Siento. said:


> I'd go as far to say that claiming a status as "the least racist country in the world" is fairly central to modern liberal British identity.


 Any suggestion otherwise and you get accused of accusing people of racism.


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## Fez909 (Apr 3, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> Any suggestion otherwise and you get accused of accusing people of racism.


I love how you've turned your insinuation that I am a racist into me _accusing_ you


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## krtek a houby (Apr 3, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> Btw Elba lived in New York playing other film roles and theatre roles before playing Stringer Bell



I remember him in "Ultraviolet", that was quite some time back


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## littlebabyjesus (Apr 3, 2014)

spanglechick said:


> Minor roles do tend to be stereotyped to a greater degree, and I've no doubt that this is worse for black actors like OU's sister.  It is, however a broader fault of the casting process.  No large energy is spent casting small parts.  Little imagination is applied.  So you get visual shorthand: gang members: black, techy types: wear glasses, primary school teachers: mousy white women... Blah.  When I worked professionally I was only considered for harassed mums and mumsy nurses, because fat women can't be educated or corporate-professional in casting shorthand.  The industry can be shit.  Both sides of the Atlantic.


Isn't the point that said 'visual shorthand' is itself more or less the definition of prejudice?

So you fell foul of certain prejudices concerning fat women, and black actors fall foul of certain prejudices concerning black people (specifically prejudices about black people held by white people).


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## Orang Utan (Apr 3, 2014)

Fez909 said:


> I love how you've turned your insinuation that I am a racist into me _accusing_ you


It was corax, not you and I did not insinuate anyone was racist


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## Fez909 (Apr 3, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> It was corax, not you and I did not insinuate anyone was racist


OK, let's just leave it there then.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 3, 2014)

Fez909 said:


> OK, let's just leave it there then.


you're very restrained not to put the boot in there, fez


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## Orang Utan (Apr 3, 2014)

Your oar is not needed here.


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## 8ball (Apr 3, 2014)

Lo Siento. said:


> I'd go as far to say that claiming a status as "the least racist country in the world" is fairly central to modern liberal British identity.


 
Is that a question on the Citizenship Test nowadays?


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## scifisam (Apr 3, 2014)

I know some people would dispute this, but I have seen first-hand prejudice against black people (and other people aren't white) in the workplace, so it'd be odd if it didn't happen in TV and movies in the UK too. Especially in the lower levels, for both work and media.

However, this is a thread about American TV and to an extent it does seem to be worse there. Not that there isn't any work, but that it's more segregated. For example, UK shows have relationships between people of different races more often than the US does, particularly without race being an issue; I remember people on an American-centric messageboard commenting on Rose and Micky in Doctor Who, but that was just not unusual casting. What stood out was them living on a council estate, not what colour they were.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 3, 2014)

spanglechick said:


> I think there are two issues at play: lack of casting in any kind of role for black actors, and stereotyping of black actors.
> 
> I think Chukka Umanna's point is fair in terms of the first point.  America has a total of 33% black and black-mixed-race people, while the uk has only 5% and perhaps this is why there are proportionately fewer roles for black actors in our TV and films.


source for the us figure pls


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## scifisam (Apr 3, 2014)

BTW Idris Elba is the titular actor in Luther. He's black. Is he unique in that? I can't think of any other cop shows where the titular characater is black, and there are a lot of cop shows.

This is just one show so doesn't prove anything either way. I'm just curious.


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## littlebabyjesus (Apr 3, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> your 5% seems to discount asian people. why is this? what is the source of your data?


You're not capable of correcting people in a nice way, are you? It is possible, you know.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 3, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> You're not capable of correcting people in a nice way, are you? It is possible, you know.


 spanglechick really needs someone like you fighting her battles.


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## butchersapron (Apr 3, 2014)

scifisam said:


> BTW Idris Elba is the titular actor in Luther. He's black. Is he unique in that? I can't think of any other cop shows where the titular characater is black, and there are a lot of cop shows.
> 
> This is just one show so doesn't prove anything either way. I'm just curious.


The Chinese detective?


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## Pickman's model (Apr 3, 2014)

scifisam said:


> BTW Idris Elba is the titular actor in Luther. He's black. Is he unique in that? I can't think of any other cop shows where the titular characater is black, and there are a lot of cop shows.
> 
> This is just one show so doesn't prove anything either way. I'm just curious.


eponymous. not titular.


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## littlebabyjesus (Apr 3, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> spanglechick really needs someone like you fighting her battles.


I'm not fighting her battles. I'm commenting on you being unnecessarily twattish.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 3, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I'm not fighting her battles. I'm commenting on you being unnecessarily twattish.


you're a bit thick, aren't you. i wasn't correcting her. i was asking a couple of questions.  it's disappointing you don't bother processing what people are doing before drawing conclusions on what you think they're doing.


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## scifisam (Apr 3, 2014)

The Chinese Detective is an OK example. No idea how much it played on his race (though the name of the show is a clue) but at least it existed. And although Chinese is obviously not black, I'd count it.

That show is also British, FWIW.



Pickman's model said:


> eponymous. not titular.



Damn, I knew I'd chosen the wrong word. Thanks.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 3, 2014)

scifisam said:


> The Chinese Detective is an OK example. No idea how much it played on his race (though the name of the show is a clue) but at least it existed. And although Chinese is obviously not black, I'd count it.
> 
> That show is also British, FWIW.
> 
> ...


always ready to help


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## Pickman's model (Apr 3, 2014)

scifisam said:


> BTW Idris Elba is the titular actor in Luther. He's black. Is he unique in that? I can't think of any other cop shows where the titular characater is black, and there are a lot of cop shows.
> 
> This is just one show so doesn't prove anything either way. I'm just curious.


there are a lot of cop shows. but most of the ones named after the leading character are based on books, e.g. morse, george gently etc etc. i can't think of too many black detectives in books offhand - though i'm sure there are a lot i'm unaware of - apart from the ones in the chester himes books. this might be why, although there are a lot of series with dominant or important black characters in e.g. the wire, homicide: life on the streets...


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## 8ball (Apr 3, 2014)

Not telly but Shaft and Blade were both _almost_ cops...


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## Pickman's model (Apr 3, 2014)

southland not eponymous but never mind.


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## scifisam (Apr 3, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> there are a lot of cop shows. but most of the ones named after the leading character are based on books, e.g. morse, george gently etc etc. i can't think of too many black detectives in books offhand - though i'm sure there are a lot i'm unaware of - apart from the ones in the chester himes books. this might be why, although there are a lot of series with dominant or important black characters in e.g. the wire, homicide: life on the streets...



It's true that they're mostly based on successful book series; in some ways, that deflects the criticism to why there aren't more books with non-white lead characters. That is a different topic altogether.

But some serialisations of books change the character so much that changing the race wouldn't be a big deal either, especially recent books; anything written and set before current times does usually have to stay white, but if they could make Jack Reacher short nothing would have stopped them from making him black.


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## littlebabyjesus (Apr 3, 2014)

scifisam said:


> It's true that they're mostly based on successful book series; in some ways, that deflects the criticism to why there aren't more books with non-white lead characters. That is a different topic altogether.
> 
> But some serialisations of books change the character so much that changing the race wouldn't be a big deal either, especially recent books; anything written and set before current times does usually have to stay white, but if they could make Jack Reacher short nothing would have stopped them from making him black.



Then there is the example of the film The Full Monty, whose original screenplay had a couple of black characters in lead roles and had growing up black in Britain as a major theme. This was all ditched when it was made, with little more than a token black presence and the black character in the group the least well developed of them all.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 3, 2014)

scifisam said:


> It's true that they're mostly based on successful book series; in some ways, that deflects the criticism to why there aren't more books with non-white lead characters. That is a different topic altogether.
> 
> But some serialisations of books change the character so much that changing the race wouldn't be a big deal either, especially recent books; anything written and set before current times does usually have to stay white, but if they could make Jack Reacher short nothing would have stopped them from making him black.


personally i would love to see a series based on chester himes. but i think changing the race of an established detective e.g. miss marple or poirot would just patronise black people.


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## littlebabyjesus (Apr 3, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> personally i would love to see a series based on chester himes. but i think changing the race of an established detective e.g. miss marple or poirot would just patronise black people.


Ironic, given that their racist creator Agatha Christie did just that all the time.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 3, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Ironic, given that their racist creator Agatha Christie did just that all the time.


if the best they can expect is a white character turned black, that's imo somewhat patronising.


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## littlebabyjesus (Apr 3, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> if the best they can expect is a white character turned black, that's imo somewhat patronising.


Isn't part of the problem, as has been touched on by others, that a lot of casting is race-specific when there is no need for it to be so. And that the 'default', neutral casting race is still more often than not white.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 3, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Isn't part of the problem, as has been touched on by others, that a lot of casting is race-specific when there is no need for it to be so. And that the 'default', neutral casting race is still more often than not white.


yes and there are other parts of the problem too.


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## scifisam (Apr 3, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> personally i would love to see a series based on chester himes. but i think changing the race of an established detective e.g. miss marple or poirot would just patronise black people.



Agreed. That's why I said "written and set in current times."


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## Pickman's model (Apr 3, 2014)

scifisam said:


> Agreed. That's why I said "written and set in current times."


yes. the problem is basing a television black character on a book white character, be they auld or new, will patronise. why not instead use one of the many books i expect are out there in which the main protagonist is black or chinese or indian or whatever?


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## littlebabyjesus (Apr 3, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> yes. the problem is basing a television black character on a book white character, be they auld or new, will patronise. why not instead use one of the many books i expect are out there in which the main protagonist is black or chinese or indian or whatever?


Well here we have the class issue butchersapron touched on. Even with no racial prejudice whatever among writers and casting people, you're likely to see black people under-represented on TV simply because they are over-represented among the poorer classes.


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## Orang Utan (Apr 3, 2014)

There are adaptations from books in which the race of the character is irrelevant or never described. So it would be fitting for either a black or white actor to play


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## littlebabyjesus (Apr 3, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> There are adaptations from books in which the race of the character is irrelevant or never described. So it would be fitting for either a black or white actor to play


Sure. And many film/tv adaptations of books make massive plot changes anyway.


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## Agent Sparrow (Apr 3, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> There are adaptations from books in which the race of the character is irrelevant or never described. So it would be fitting for either a black or white actor to play


Indeed. I think a female director said something broadly similar about creating non stereotyped female characters, which was simply to take the well rounded male characters in a screenplay, and make about half of them female with a few minor adaptions. And I imagine you'd often need fewer or no adaptations to change/be fluid with race if the character isn't specifcally rooted in a particular culture.

Edit: though I acknowledge that sometimes this sort of colour blindness could backfire in certain circumstances.


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## Yuwipi Woman (Apr 3, 2014)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Since when?



She has her figure both right and wrong.  The non-white population is around 39%, but that includes everyone who doesn't fit the northern European model.  It includes Hispanics, African Americans, Native American, etc.  By 2040 or so whites will be a minority of the population. 

http://www.censusscope.org/us/map_nhwhite.html


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## Pickman's model (Apr 3, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> There are adaptations from books in which the race of the character is irrelevant or never described. So it would be fitting for either a black or white actor to play


perhaps you have just such a book in mind


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## Yuwipi Woman (Apr 3, 2014)

scifisam said:


> I know some people would dispute this, but I have seen first-hand prejudice against black people (and other people aren't white) in the workplace, so it'd be odd if it didn't happen in TV and movies in the UK too. Especially in the lower levels, for both work and media.
> 
> However, this is a thread about American TV and to an extent it does seem to be worse there. Not that there isn't any work, but that it's more segregated. For example, UK shows have relationships between people of different races more often than the US does, particularly without race being an issue; I remember people on an American-centric messageboard commenting on Rose and Micky in Doctor Who, but that was just not unusual casting. What stood out was them living on a council estate, not what colour they were.



My objection to the portrayal of race on US tv shows is that the black actor/actress is always cast as the sidekick with the white male being cast as the hero.  (Psych, Person of Interest, Eureka).

One note about Eureka:  They followed that model, but they broke the stereotypes.  The black characters were all scientists in positions of power (a rocket scientist and a CEO) and the white hero was a Sherriff with little education.  Nevertheless, the same model applied.


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## 8ball (Apr 3, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> perhaps you have just such a book in mind


 
V for Vendetta?

The 'V' character originally escapes from a fascist settlement camp for political prisoners and racial and other minorities.


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## Orang Utan (Apr 3, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> perhaps you have just such a book in mind


One character that springs to mind is Felix Leiter from James Bond.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 3, 2014)

8ball said:


> V for Vendetta?
> 
> The 'V' character originally escapes from a fascist settlement camp for political prisoners and racial and other minorities.


when i read 'v' i thought that it was plain he had been a white political because the fates of the ethnic minority prisoners were recounted.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 3, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> One character that springs to mind is Felix Leiter from James Bond.


"a mop of straw-coloured hair lent his face a boyish look which closer examination contradicted"


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## Orang Utan (Apr 3, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> "a mop of straw-coloured hair lent his face a boyish look which closer examination contradicted"


His race is irrelevant in the films though. Its not made an issue of. It doesn't inform his character.


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## 8ball (Apr 3, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> when i read 'v' i thought that it was plain he had been a white political because the fates of the ethnic minority prisoners were recounted.


 
Fair enough - not read the whole thing.  Hardly seems like a big change though.  People argue over whether 'V' is gay, so I figured not necessarily a 'political' either (not when admitted to the place, anyway).


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 3, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> His race is irrelevant in the films though. Its not made an issue of. It doesn't inform his character.


it would be nice to see him depicted - true to the books - having been severely mauled by a shark. which would allow the use of a disabled or maimed black actor, a section of the thespian fraternity definitely under-represented.


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (Apr 3, 2014)

Agent Sparrow said:


> As a white British woman (i.e. not Anerican or BME so perhaps a bit of an outsider perspective) I know the BBT pokes fun at different groups, but the heavy handed treatment of Raj's ethnicity in the early series was one of two things that made me really .



It was worse in the early seasons, but I'm having a difficult time seeing Raj as oppressed.  He's had the benefit of an excellent education and is a success in everything except with women.  (I don't see any of them that are particularly handy with the ladies (nerd stereotype).)  Many Americans can't afford the education he has and in some ways resents.



Agent Sparrow said:


> The other, incidentally, were the cheap jokes regarding Amy's lesbian crush.



I didn't see it as a lesbian crush.  I saw it as a sad attempt by someone so starved for love of any kind that she'll take it wherever she can find it.  I felt sorry for her.



Agent Sparrow said:


> I know that there were as many references to Howard's Jewishness as Raj's Indianness, but for some reason from my (admittedly outside) perspective the jokes didn't seem so clumsy and cringeworthy. I later read that one of the writers is Jewish and I wondered if that was what I was picking up on-that the Jewish references were more affectionate in jokes, whilst the Indian stuff was more clumsy externally imposed jokes. Alternatively I might just be less used to Jewish stereotypes in British TV.



The jokes about Howard's Jewishness get to me more than the others.  Possibly because I grew up with concentration camp survivors being paraded through school every year to tell their story.

I do laugh at Penny (stereotype of Midwestern farm girl).  Probably because its the one closet to me and I recognize some of the hints she drops ("You'd love my brother, he's_ kind of_ a chemist." )


----------



## Corax (Apr 3, 2014)

Yuwipi Woman said:


> My objection to the portrayal of race on US tv shows is that the black actor/actress is always cast as the sidekick with the white male being cast as the hero.  (Psych, Person of Interest, Eureka).


Add Arrow to that list too


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## Yuwipi Woman (Apr 3, 2014)

Corax said:


> Add Arrow to that list too



Criminal Intent, SVU.  The list is very, very long.


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## Orang Utan (Apr 3, 2014)

I think you're missing the point with Raj, Yuwipi Woman Its not that he is repressed but that he is a stereotypical representation


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## Corax (Apr 3, 2014)

Yuwipi Woman said:


> It was worse in the early seasons, but I'm having a difficult time seeing Raj as oppressed.  He's had the benefit of an excellent education and is a success in everything except with women.  (I don't see any of them that are particularly handy with the ladies (nerd stereotype).)  Many Americans can't afford the education he has and in some ways resents.


Have to admit I don't see Raj as oppressed - but I do raise an eyebrow at his accent at the minimum.  The overblown way* his accent is delivered reminds me strongly of the 'hilarious' impressions primary-schoolmates did in the playground in the 80s.

Apu in the Simpsons has the same thing going on, which also passes as acceptable it seems - so perhaps there's some difference between the US and UK subcontinental populations that justifies it.

* In my perception anyway - I've never heard anyone from the subcontinent speak like that


On a general note, the UK programme that came most to mind when writing the OP wasn't one where racism is involved AFAIK, it was Ricky Gervais' _Derek_.  Which I managed less than 10 minutes of before having to switch it off in anger and nausea.


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## Idris2002 (Apr 3, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> His race is irrelevant in the films though. Its not made an issue of. It doesn't inform his character.



In the case of the film adaptation of Live and Let Die, my guess is that he was made black to distract attention from the _incredibly _racist depiction of the villains. Though mind you, it was only a Roger Moore Bond flick, so who cares, really.


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 3, 2014)

Corax said:


> Have to admit I don't see Raj as oppressed - but I do raise an eyebrow at his accent.  The overblown way* his accent is delivered reminds me strongly of the 'hilarious' impressions primary-schoolmates did in the playground in the 80s.
> 
> Apu in the Simpsons has the same thing going on, which also passes as acceptable it seems - so perhaps there's some difference between the US and UK subcontinental populations that justifies it.
> 
> ...


 
I can't help feeling that Mainstream America is genuinely threatened by Indians-from-India, in that it genuinely doesn't know what to make of them.


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 3, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> In the case of the film adaptation of Live and Let Die, my guess is that he was made black to distract attention from the _incredibly _racist depiction of the villains. Though mind you, it was only a Roger Moore Bond flick, so who cares, really.


Moore is the best Bond!


----------



## 8ball (Apr 3, 2014)

It's all just a failure to appreciate subtlety.  I'm sure someone will be along in a minute to explain...


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 3, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> Moore is the best Bond!



No, George Lazenby was the best Bond, as any fule kno.


----------



## 8ball (Apr 3, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> No, George Lazenby was the best Bond, as any fule kno.


 
Bob Holness was teh best bond morans!


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 3, 2014)

Roger Moore was perfect - camp, old and tired and played for laughs


----------



## Corax (Apr 3, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> I can't help feeling that Mainstream America is genuinely threatened by Indians-from-India, in that it genuinely doesn't know what to make of them.


Still developing a cultural pigeonhole to fit them in to maybe.  There are well-crafted traditional boxes available for other brown people (eg Mexicans, 'Asians'), but Indians/Pakistanis/Bangladeshis are the wrong shape for those.  What to do?


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## 8ball (Apr 3, 2014)

Corax said:


> Still developing a cultural pigeonhole to fit them in to maybe.  There are well-crafted traditional boxes available for other brown people (eg Mexicans, 'Asians'), but Indians/Pakistanis/Bangladeshis are the wrong shape for those.  What to do?


 
Lump them in with Canadians?


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (Apr 3, 2014)

8ball said:


> Lump them in with Canadians?



Lump them in with Bieber?  We aren't quite that cruel.


----------



## 8ball (Apr 3, 2014)

Yuwipi Woman said:


> Lump them in with Bieber?  We aren't quite that cruel.


 
I think lumping Bieber in with Canadians is the cruel bit.


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (Apr 3, 2014)

8ball said:


> I think lumping Bieber in with Canadians is the cruel bit.



Yeh, I think JC2 would be offended by the comparison.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Apr 3, 2014)

8ball said:


> Not telly but Shaft and Blade were both _almost_ cops...



Almost every police captain in American cop/detective films is black - and also loud, overemotional, and not the sharpest tool in the shed. They're always being shown up by the lead character.

It's another stereotype, and probably a dig at affirmative action.


----------



## Corax (Apr 3, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> I wasn't correcting her. i was asking a couple of questions.  it's disappointing you don't bother processing what people are doing before drawing conclusions on what you think they're doing.


It's not only you, I think it's just the house style of certain parts of the boards that can unintentionally come across to some posters in that way. Different languages. Mistranslations. 

Everyone hug and look at kittens n shit.


----------



## 8ball (Apr 3, 2014)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Almost every police captain in American cop/detective films is black - and also loud, overemotional, and not the sharpest tool in the shed.


 
But he always gives the white guy 24 hours to get the job done, and is always right on this because he is a good manager and understands how white people work best under extreme pressure and sleep deprivation.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 3, 2014)

Corax said:


> It's not only you, I think it's just the house style of certain parts of the boards that can unintentionally come across to some posters in that way. Different languages. Mistranslations.
> 
> Everyone hug and look at kittens n shit.


you may experience a laxative effect from looking at kittens. but don't believe that everyone else shares that bowel-loosening feeling.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Apr 3, 2014)

Yuwipi Woman said:


> She has her figure both right and wrong.  The non-white population is around 39%, but that includes everyone who doesn't fit the northern European model.  It includes Hispanics, African Americans, Native American, etc.  By 2040 or so whites will be a minority of the population.
> 
> http://www.censusscope.org/us/map_nhwhite.html



Yes; but as for blacks, I believe the percentage is around 10%. The non-white population of the US can't all be described as 'blacks'.


----------



## 8ball (Apr 3, 2014)

Corax said:


> It's not only you, I think it's just the house style of certain parts of the boards that can unintentionally come across to some posters in that way. Different languages. Mistranslations.


 
While a good point, it is also true that some people are just cunts.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Apr 3, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> His race is irrelevant in the films though. Its not made an issue of. It doesn't inform his character.



As I recall, the Felix Leiter character has been played by both white and black actors in different films.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 3, 2014)

Jack Crawford in Hannibal. Although he was white in the films, they got morpheus to play him in the series


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Apr 3, 2014)

Idris2002 said:


> No, George Lazenby was the best Bond, as any fule kno.



Daniel Craig is the best followup Bond.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 3, 2014)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Yes; but as for blacks, I believe the percentage is around 10%. The non-white population of the US can't all be described as 'blacks'.


native americans might be up in arms.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Apr 3, 2014)

Yuwipi Woman said:


> Yeh, I think JC2 would be offended by the comparison.



I like Bieber, and feel sorry about what's happening to him.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Apr 3, 2014)

8ball said:


> But he always gives the white guy 24 hours to get the job done, and is always right on this because he is a good manager and understands how white people work best under extreme pressure and sleep deprivation.


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (Apr 3, 2014)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> I like Bieber, and feel sorry about what's happening to him.



He certainly seems to be sinking fast.  He reminds me of Michael Jackson.  It was obvious he needed help and no one cared more about him than they did their meal ticket.


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 3, 2014)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> As I recall, the Felix Leiter character has been played by both white and black actors in different films.


I was thinking of Colin Salmon more recently


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Apr 3, 2014)

Yuwipi Woman said:


> He certainly seems to be sinking fast.  He reminds me of Michael Jackson.  It was obvious someone needed to do an intervention and no one cared more about him than they did their meal ticket.



He does things that might be expected of teens - especially teens with access to millions of dollars - and gets demonized in the press for it.


----------



## kabbes (Apr 3, 2014)

What surprises me about this discussion is not the suggestion that the British TV and film industry is institutionally racist, but that the US TV and film industry is not *just* as institutionally racist. I'd have thought it was hard to get a fag paper between them.


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (Apr 3, 2014)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Yes; but as for blacks, I believe the percentage is around 10%. The non-white population of the US can't all be described as 'blacks'.



Yes, the African American population is somewhere between 10-15%.  It's remained level throughout the years, while the non-white Hispanic population has steadily risen as a percentage.


----------



## kabbes (Apr 3, 2014)

Yuwipi Woman said:


> Yes, the African American population is somewhere between 10-15%.  It remained level throughout the years, while the non-white Hispanic population has steadily risen as a percentage.


Statistically, this must mean that the black population is rising rapidly in proportion to the white population.

I have no point to make there, just an observation of fact.


----------



## Cid (Apr 3, 2014)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Yes; but as for blacks, I believe the percentage is around 10%. The non-white population of the US can't all be described as 'blacks'.



12.8% according to CIA world factbook, 80% white population. UK has 87.2% white population, 3% 'black, African, Caribbean, Black-British'.


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (Apr 3, 2014)

kabbes said:


> Statistically, this must mean that the black population is rising rapidly in proportion to the white population.
> 
> I have no point to make there, just an observation of fact.



The non-white birthrate is considerably higher than the white birthrate.  I suspect its due mostly to immigrants who come from cultures where having a lot of children is encouraged.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 3, 2014)

kabbes said:


> What surprises me about this discussion is not the suggestion that the British TV and film industry is institutionally racist, but that the US TV and film industry is not *just* as institutionally racist. I'd have thought it was hard to get a fag paper between them.


They're differently racist, though. JC3's eg of the black police chiefs is an example of a different kind of stereotype. US tv/film is also more segregated, I would say, with 'white' shows and 'black' shows. On the other hand, there are probably more black stars in the US.


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (Apr 3, 2014)

Cid said:


> 80% white population.



That figure must either be old or it includes the Hispanic population in the "white" category.


----------



## kabbes (Apr 3, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> They're differently racist, though. JC3's eg of the black police chiefs is an example of a different kind of stereotype. US tv/film is also more segregated, I would say, with 'white' shows and 'black' shows. On the other hand, there are probably more black stars in the US.


We're still just arguing over who has the worst smelling turds. The fragrance might be slightly different, but they still both smell of shit.


----------



## Cid (Apr 3, 2014)

Yuwipi Woman said:


> That figure must either be old or it includes the Hispanic population in the "white" category.



Yeah, you're right:



> white 79.96%, black 12.85%, Asian 4.43%, Amerindian and Alaska native 0.97%, native Hawaiian and other Pacific islander 0.18%, two or more races 1.61% (July 2007 estimate)
> _note:_ a separate listing for Hispanic is not included because the US Census Bureau considers Hispanic to mean persons of Spanish/Hispanic/Latino origin including those of Mexican, Cuban, Puerto Rican, Dominican Republic, Spanish, and Central or South American origin living in the US who may be of any race or ethnic group (white, black, Asian, etc.); about 15.1% of the total US population is Hispanic


----------



## Agent Sparrow (Apr 3, 2014)

Yuwipi Woman said:


> It was worse in the early seasons, but I'm having a difficult time seeing Raj as oppressed.  He's had the benefit of an excellent education and is a success in everything except with women.  (I don't see any of them that are particularly handy with the ladies (nerd stereotype).)  Many Americans can't afford the education he has and in some ways resents.


It's not that he's an oppressed character, more that there were just repetitive cheap jokes about him being Indian, and as others have said, parts of his character are pretty overblown and stereotypical. I dunno, it's like he can't get on with being Raj the character because he is "the Indian". Though I agreed this improved later on.

I think we'll be nearer equality in TV when a good proportion of BME characters can just get on with their nuanced character's role, rather than being portrayed as "the BME character". Same applies for women in many genres not having to be "the chick" (as identified in TV tropes).



> I didn't see it as a lesbian crush.  I saw it as a sad attempt by someone so starved for love of any kind that she'll take it wherever she can find it.  I felt sorry for her.


I dunno, some of it is definitely (unnecessarily) sexualised. Tbh it makes me think of playground homophobia in its tone.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 3, 2014)

talking of canadians and indians from india the canadian comedy 'little mosque on the prairie' is quite good, and despite that title is not offensive.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Apr 3, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> US tv/film is also more segregated, I would say, with 'white' shows and 'black' shows..



I think this was true in the 70s - 80s, as sort of a transitional period when tv began to accept the presence of blacks in any numbers; but not so much today. Can't think of many tv series being produced now like the Cosby Show, Good Times, Sanford and Son, The Jeffersons etc.


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (Apr 3, 2014)

Agent Sparrow said:


> It's not that he's an oppressed character, more that there were just repetitive cheap jokes about him being Indian, and as others have said, parts of his character are pretty overblown and stereotypical. I dunno, it's like he can't get on with being Raj the character because he is "the Indian". Though I agreed this improved later on.
> 
> I think we'll be nearer equality in TV when a good proportion of BME characters can just get on with their nuanced character's role, rather than being portrayed as "the BME character". Same applies for women in many genres not having to be "the chick" (as identified in TV tropes).



I guess what I'm arguing is that I agree its a stereotype, but as far as stereotypes go you could do far worse.  If Raj were Native American (Indian) instead of Indian, he'd be portrayed as a drunk who sleeps in alleys and waits for his Welfare check.  Now, that's a nasty stereotype.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 3, 2014)

Yuwipi Woman said:


> I guess what I'm arguing is that I agree its a stereotype, but as far as stereotypes go you could do far worse.  If Raj were Native American (Indian) instead of Indian, he'd be portrayed as a drunk who sleeps in alleys and waits for his Welfare check.  Now, that's a nasty stereotype.


All racial stereotypes are damaging, though, even 'positive' ones, because they indicate an inability to see past the race to the person.


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (Apr 3, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> All racial stereotypes are damaging, though, even 'positive' ones, because they indicate an inability to see past the race to the person.



True, but I doubt a real person who superficially resembles Raj, has as much difficulty getting a job, a table at a restaurant, or waited on in a store in RL.  Unfortunately, people deal with others a lot of time based on their stereotypes.  I don't see that changing soon.


----------



## Corax (Apr 3, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> All racial stereotypes are damaging, though, even 'positive' ones, because they indicate an inability to see past the race to the person.


And foster a sense of inadequacy in those that don't 'live up to' the expectations of that stereotype.

'Asian' kids in the US who aren't good at maths are possibly an example.


----------



## Agent Sparrow (Apr 3, 2014)

Also with Raj it's not just the stereotype, but the continuous jokes of "oh look, I'm Indian, did I mention I was Indian, how wacky that makes me"


----------



## spanglechick (Apr 3, 2014)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Since when?





Pickman's model said:


> source for the us figure pls





Yuwipi Woman said:


> She has her figure both right and wrong.  The non-white population is around 39%, but that includes everyone who doesn't fit the northern European model.  It includes Hispanics, African Americans, Native American, etc.  By 2040 or so whites will be a minority of the population.
> 
> http://www.censusscope.org/us/map_nhwhite.html



Ahh bollocks.  Apologies. Should not try and do mental arithmatic before I get up in the morning. FWIW,  I was using the wiki page on US demographics, 12.9% African American, and then an article from CNN which gave me a figure of 1 million black and other ethnicity mixed race people.  Which somehow, when turning it into a percentage gave me something very wrong.  Am a plum.	 The percentage is still over twice as high as in the uk, though.   Which does back my point up to some extent.  



Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Interesting to watch a parade of white Britons come onto this thread to explain how the black Labour MP in fact has it wrong.
> 
> I wonder who would know more about the reality of life as a black person in Britain?



I was not, anywhere in my post, saying that black people don't experience racism.  I was trying to separate two distinct issues: increased numbers of black actors being cast as being related to the different proportion of black and mixed race people in the US population... (Which was wrong in specifics, but is still significantly true) . And the issue of racial stereotyping which I said I fully believe goes on for smaller roles but pointed to evidence that suggests quite strongly that Chukka Ummana, who is very, very wrong about a great number of things in politics and hasn't - to my knowledge - ever worked in theatre, film or TV - might in this case, be wrong with relation to racial typecasting in bigger parts. 

Being white doesn't and shouldn't prevent you from challenging people if you think they are wrong about something. If Umanna said that black people were less likely to - I dunno, and looking for a non contentious example - be great writers but not make the booker prize shortlist - and I could think of several examples that suggested he might be wrong, then am I not allowed to challenge his statement, even partially, because I'm white?


littlebabyjesus said:


> Isn't the point that said 'visual shorthand' is itself more or less the definition of prejudice?
> 
> So you fell foul of certain prejudices concerning fat women, and black actors fall foul of certain prejudices concerning black people (specifically prejudices about black people held by white people).



Yes.  That is my point.     But I'm saying it happens much less for actors like the ones being bandied about here, who at the time they went to America all had a decent cv of featured roles to their name.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 3, 2014)

spanglechick check yr privilege


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (Apr 3, 2014)

Corax said:


> And foster a sense of inadequacy in those that don't 'live up to' the expectations of that stereotype.
> 
> 'Asian' kids in the US who aren't good at maths are possibly an example.



I do see your point, but part of me is thinking "God, it must suck to be the one assumed to be the most qualified for the job."


----------



## Mation (Apr 3, 2014)

spanglechick said:


> Ahh bollocks.  Apologies. Should not try and do mental arithmatic before I get up in the morning. FWIW,  I was using the wiki page on US demographics, 12.9% African American, and then an article from CNN which gave me a figure of 1 million black and other ethnicity mixed race people.  Which somehow, when turning it into a percentage gave me something very wrong.  Am a plum.	 The percentage is still over twice as high as in the uk, though.   Which does back my point up to some extent.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Whenever I hear interviews with black British actors, they say that there are very few parts for black people that aren't stereotypes. It seems an odd point to take issue with... There just aren't many non-stereotyped black roles.


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (Apr 3, 2014)

Agent Sparrow said:


> Also with Raj it's not just the stereotype, but the continuous jokes of "oh look, I'm Indian, did I mention I was Indian, how wacky that makes me"



They do that with Howard as well.  It is irritating.


----------



## Corax (Apr 3, 2014)

I don't think this debate can function without considering white actors' roles as well. 

Many roles are stereotypes. The nature of television. 

I'm not saying the proposition is incorrect. But pointing out instances where black roles are stereotypes doesn't confirm it alone.


----------



## Jon-of-arc (Apr 3, 2014)

I watched Eddie Murphy in Coming to America last night. That is all.


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 3, 2014)

Jon-of-arc said:


> I watched Eddie Murphy in Coming to America last night. That is all.


I saw that last year. Now that's what I call racist!


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 3, 2014)

the two tramps who he gives a bag full of money too near the end? The baddies from Trading Places


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 3, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> the two tramps who he gives a bag full of money too near the end? The baddies from Trading Places


Er, yes! Surely everyone know that? They even call each other by their names


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 3, 2014)

I only noticed it on about the 6th watch over the years


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 3, 2014)

plus the Samuel L Jackson cameo uncredited as the stick-up man in McRonalds


----------



## spring-peeper (Apr 3, 2014)

Yuwipi Woman said:


> True, but I doubt a real person who superficially resembles Raj, has as much difficulty getting a job, a table at a restaurant, or waited on in a store in RL.  Unfortunately, people deal with others a lot of time based on their stereotypes.  I don't see that changing soon.



I'm confused.  (doesn't take much   )

There are people who lack the social skills in areas such as getting a job, a decent table at a restaurant or waited on in a store.  In my experience, they come in all colours, shapes and genders.


Are you upset that the handicap these people have to endure on a daily basis is being used as a source of humour?

Or is it that you think that someone who looks like Raj should not have any of these difficulties?

Or is it that people who look like Raj are perceived to have these difficulties?


----------



## spring-peeper (Apr 3, 2014)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> I think this was true in the 70s - 80s, as sort of a transitional period when tv began to accept the presence of blacks in any numbers; but not so much today. Can't think of many tv series being produced now like the Cosby Show, Good Times, Sanford and Son, The Jeffersons etc.




There are a few, I've seen ads for them.  None of them looked overly appealing.


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (Apr 3, 2014)

spring-peeper said:


> I'm confused.  (doesn't take much   )
> 
> There are people who lack the social skills in areas such as getting a job, a decent table at a restaurant or waited on in a store.  In my experience, they come in all colours, shapes and genders.
> 
> ...



I'm suggesting that Raj (or someone who superficially fit the profile) would probably have less of those difficulties.  What I was saying is that you're better off, from a practical sense, with a stereotype that portrays you as being educated, competent, and responsible (such as Raj) than another which portrays you as a drunk, criminal, welfare cheat.   Neither is fair, but that latter gives you one more hurtle to jump.


----------



## isvicthere? (Apr 3, 2014)

Yuwipi Woman said:


> Yes.
> 
> BTW, the actor who plays that character was born in London.



Indeed, but he didn't grow up here. Hence his "goodness-gracious-me" accent.


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 3, 2014)

Yuwipi Woman said:


> I'm suggestion that Raj (or someone who superficially fit the profile) would probably have less of those difficulties.  What I was saying is that you're better off, from a practical sense, with a stereotype that portrays you as being educated, competent, and responsible (such as Raj) than another which portrays you as a drunk, criminal, welfare cheat.


But you're getting close to that silly argument that positive stereotypes can't be damaging eg blacks = great dancers and (sexual) athletes


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (Apr 3, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> But you're getting close to that silly argument that positive stereotypes can't be damaging eg blacks = great dancers and (sexual) athletes



I'm not making that argument at all.  I'm saying that in the RL, you're better off being told "you can" than you are being told "you can't."  Unfortunately, you're going to be told one or the other a lot based upon someone's stereotype of you, not based on you, yourself.  Sooner or later, you probably going to internalize it.

From a theoretical point of view, I agree with you.  We don't live in the middle of theory.  Its not fair, but it is, what it is.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 3, 2014)

Corax said:


> I don't think this debate can function without considering white actors' roles as well..


Well that's the whole point, isn't it? Speaking about the UK, there is no stereotypical 'white' role for white actors where they are prejudged in casting because they are white. And that appears to stand in rather stark contrast to the position of black actors, even where individual casting decisions may not be considered racist taken on their own. Hence the situation of _institutionalised_ racism.


----------



## spring-peeper (Apr 3, 2014)

Yuwipi Woman said:


> I'm suggesting that Raj (or someone who superficially fit the profile) would probably have less of those difficulties.



So Indians don't have these problems?

or better yet ->  do you think all Indians have these problem????



> What I was saying is that you're better off, from a practical sense, with a stereotype that portrays you as being educated, competent, and responsible (such as Raj) than another which portrays you as a drunk, criminal, welfare cheat.   Neither is fair, but that latter gives you one more hurtle to jump.



You are totally correct.  Every single person, regardless of race, colour or creed, should be presented in the best possible light.  None of the characters on TV should have any the imperfections that you classify as unique to their race, and their lives are perfect.

Look - no more barriers for people to hurtle!!!



Duck Dynasty is still a total mystery to me!


----------



## Corax (Apr 3, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Well that's the whole point, isn't it? Speaking about the UK, there is no stereotypical 'white' role for white actors where they are prejudged in casting because they are white. And that appears to stand in rather stark contrast to the position of black actors, even where individual casting decisions may not be considered racist taken on their own. Hence the situation of _institutionalised_ racism.


You're probably right. What I'm saying though is that for many roles that are played by white actors you can quite easily also justifiably label them as stereotypes. Misfits for example - geek, slut, lad, etc. If the racial power balance was reversed (which it isn't, obvs) then could similar accusations be laid there? 

Question of the distinction between archetype and stereotype maybe?


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (Apr 3, 2014)

spring-peeper said:


> So Indians don't have these problems?
> 
> or better yet ->  do you think all Indians have these problem????
> 
> ...



Read the thread please, Spring.


----------



## spring-peeper (Apr 3, 2014)

Yuwipi Woman said:


> Read the thread please, Spring.




I went back four pages.


Leave Raj alone - he is not a good example.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 3, 2014)

Corax said:


> You're probably right. What I'm saying though is that for many roles that are played by white actors you can quite easily also justifiably label them as stereotypes. Misfits for example - geek, slut, lad, etc. If the racial power balance was reversed (which it isn't, obvs) then could similar accusations be laid there?
> 
> Question of the distinction between archetype and stereotype maybe?




In misfits the black lad is portrayed as a Jonny B Goode but how did curtis gain his good-lad legitimacy (before that went tits up)? Cos he was a runner.


----------



## spanglechick (Apr 3, 2014)

Mation said:


> Whenever I hear interviews with black British actors, they say that there are very few parts for black people that aren't stereotypes. It seems an odd point to take issue with... There just aren't many non-stereotyped black roles.


for featured roles and even including all the ones that i and others have mentioned?  I can't think of a single black featured character on anything i've watched on british telly for ages that i'd see as a stereotype, but i 'm prepared to be wrong about that.  can anyone give some examples so i stop talking out of my arse?  cos i can think of black doctors and police officers and teachers and tv producers and straight-edge students and IT nerds and retail managers and futuristic queens and office managers, but maybe that's because what i watch is somehow self-selecting 

I've not read those interviews and obviously, unlike chukka umanna's opinion on the subject, I completely believe those actors and what they're saying about their experience of casting in the uk.  i'm a bit muddled, i supposed.  the only stereotyped featured black actors i can think of on uk telly are Kim and patrick from eastenders, and even then it's playing to a cultural type, i'd say, rather than stereotyping... though i dunno if i'm 100% on the difference.


----------



## spanglechick (Apr 3, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> In misfits the black lad is portrayed as a Jonny B Goode but how did curtis gain his good-lad legitimacy (before that went tits up)? Cos he was a runner.


still not much of a stereotype is it, though?  in a series that's about young offenders, where all the main cast are young offenders, the only one who was properly good and a victim of circumstance is a black lad.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 3, 2014)

spanglechick said:


> still not much of a stereotype is it, though?  in a series that's about young offenders, where all the main cast are young offenders, the only one who was properly good and a victim of circumstance is a black lad.




and why is he good? Because he's a runner. Good negro= sportlad.

I know its not that simple and the character of Curtis becomes a lot more involved and complex but YSWIIM


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 3, 2014)

spring-peeper said:


> I went back four pages.
> 
> 
> Leave Raj alone - he is not a good example.


He is an example of a stereotypical representation of an Indian abroad. Big Bang Theory is a major tv comedy. It's an excellent example, even if I do say so myself


----------



## spanglechick (Apr 3, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> and why is he good? Because he's a runner. Good negro= sportlad.
> 
> I know its not that simple and the character of Curtis becomes a lot more involved and complex but YSWIIM


No, I do see. And it is a stereotype in terms of that aspect of the character's past - but he's not a runner any more, tbf.  

Tbh, I reckon I can't rely on any of what i've thought about this, because people who know better are telling me i'm wrong - so i am, but i can't find the examples to get my head round it.


----------



## Agent Sparrow (Apr 3, 2014)

Corax said:


> I don't think this debate can function without considering white actors' roles as well.
> 
> Many roles are stereotypes. The nature of television.
> 
> I'm not saying the proposition is incorrect. But pointing out instances where black roles are stereotypes doesn't confirm it alone.


Yes, certainly I would say that TV is based on a range of stereotypes, or tropes. However, none depend on "whiteness" as far as I can tell.

There are of course national/regional stereotypes that are usually cast white, e.g the posh English person, the American red neck, but whilst their whiteness may be important it's not the main thing driving the stereotype.


Orang Utan said:


> I saw that last year. *Now that's what I call racist!*


Yours for £9.99-40 racist tropes from 2013 on one double disk!?


----------



## shygirl (Apr 3, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> there are a lot of cop shows. but most of the ones named after the leading character are based on books, e.g. morse, george gently etc etc. i can't think of too many black detectives in books offhand - though i'm sure there are a lot i'm unaware of - apart from the ones in the chester himes books. this might be why, although there are a lot of series with dominant or important black characters in e.g. the wire, homicide: life on the streets...


 
I haven't read the whole thread yet, but why are black and other minority actors restricted to roles specifically created for bme characters?  An actor is an actor, should it really matter, unless it's crucial to the story?


----------



## spring-peeper (Apr 3, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> He is an example of a stereotypical representation of an Indian abroad. Big Bang Theory is a major tv comedy. It's an excellent example, even if I do say so myself




I started watching the show after my daughter said the based the Sheldon character after her husband.  She wasn't too far off. 
After watching the show, I find him a lot easier to deal with.


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## spanglechick (Apr 3, 2014)

ok - help me with something i've been failing to remember all day.  There's some dodgy (small?) group of blokes and they're in over their head with some elaborate con or similar...  and at some point they get passed to an asian (indian?) call centre bloke, and he conveniently happens to be some expert in exactly the kind of techy stuff that our conman needs, so he immediately flies him over to [usa? uk?] and the call centre / asian techy bloke stereotype becomes part of the gang.

what is it?  it could be telly or film and i've seen it in the last few months but that could be on netflix so it might be a few years old.


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## Supine (Apr 3, 2014)

US comedy uses stereotyping as a comedy mechanism sometimes doesn't it. I'm thinking of Gloria from modern family, when they joke about the world she comes from in Columbia, It's just a tool to get some laughs and isn't made in a bad way (I think).

Same as Raj in BBT. He's a great character imo, and nothing like a stereotype for an Indian abroad character. Tbf I don't reckon Americans would have a clue about real Indians so probably wouldn't know what a stereotype is.

I'd be more worried about characters pretending to be from another race/colour. Like Gandi in the film was a white guy disguised as an Indian. That has to be worse surely!!!


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## Corax (Apr 3, 2014)

Agent Sparrow said:


> Yes, certainly I would say that TV is based on a range of stereotypes, or tropes. However, none depend on "whiteness" as far as I can tell.
> 
> There are of course national/regional stereotypes that are usually cast white, e.g the posh English person, the American red neck, but whilst their whiteness may be important it's not the main thing driving the stereotype.


I generally agree with that. I suspect most on here would tbh. 

I guess the exception I'm trying to get at is the danger of labelling a character as a stereotype just because they conform to one of those characteristics. Curtis in Misfits is a good example. I'd not even remembered that he was a sprinter until it was brought up in this thread (which *may* have been done tongue in cheek by Dotty, I'm not sure). I think he's quite a well developed character tbh.  But is his character not *allowed* to be an athlete because that fits a certain tired ethnic portrayal?


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## Belushi (Apr 3, 2014)

Supine said:


> Like Gandi in the film was a white guy disguised as an Indian. That has to be worse surely!!!



Ben Kingsley? He's an Anglo-Indian, born Krishna Pandit Banji.


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## Corax (Apr 3, 2014)

Belushi said:


> Ben Kingsley? He's an Anglo-Indian, born Krishna Pandit Banji.


Beat me to it.


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## Supine (Apr 3, 2014)

Belushi said:


> Ben Kingsley? He's an Anglo-Indian, born Krishna Pandit Banji.



Really! Live and learn and all that


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## Fez909 (Apr 3, 2014)

If this has been around since the 1980s then I'm sure there exists stereotypes of Indians in America which are widely known:


> American Born Confused Desi, Emigrated From Gujarat, House In Jersey, Kids Learning Medicine, Now Owning Property, Quite Reasonable Salary, Two Uncles Visiting, White Xenophobia, Yet Zestful


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## Orang Utan (Apr 3, 2014)

Supine said:


> I don't reckon Americans would have a clue about real Indians so probably wouldn't know what a stereotype is.


 aw right then, dunt matter then does it?


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## Mation (Apr 3, 2014)

spanglechick said:


> for featured roles and even including all the ones that i and others have mentioned?  I can't think of a single black featured character on anything i've watched on british telly for ages that i'd see as a stereotype, but i 'm prepared to be wrong about that.  can anyone give some examples so i stop talking out of my arse?  cos i can think of black doctors and police officers and teachers and tv producers and straight-edge students and IT nerds and retail managers and futuristic queens and office managers, but maybe that's because what i watch is somehow self-selecting
> 
> I've not read those interviews and obviously, unlike chukka umanna's opinion on the subject, I completely believe those actors and what they're saying about their experience of casting in the uk.  i'm a bit muddled, i supposed.  the only stereotyped featured black actors i can think of on uk telly are Kim and patrick from eastenders, and even then it's playing to a cultural type, i'd say, rather than stereotyping... though i dunno if i'm 100% on the difference.


I'm at a disadvantage in that I've got a particularly rubbish memory for the details of telly so I can't give any examples off the top of my  head. If I think of any later, I'll post them...

But what I would say is that even where there is a wider range of, say, occupations depicted, the personal dramas/characteristics still revolve around some core stereotypes.


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## Fez909 (Apr 3, 2014)

Mation said:


> I'm at a disadvantage in that I've got a particularly rubbish memory for the details of telly so I can't give any examples off the top of my  head. If I think of any later, I'll post them...
> 
> But what I would say is that even where there is a wider range of, say, occupations depicted, the personal dramas/characteristics still revolve around some core stereotypes.


The barman in Ashes to Ashes/Life on Mars?


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## Mation (Apr 3, 2014)

Fez909 said:


> The barman in Ashes to Ashes/Life on Mars?


I don't know it. But that's very 'anecdotes != data'. What you propose may well be a great counter example but doesn't necessarily say anything about most cases.


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## Fez909 (Apr 3, 2014)

Mation said:


> I don't know it. But that's very 'anecdotes != data'. What you propose may well be a great counter example but doesn't necessarily say anything about most cases.


I was actually trying to suggest characters who might fit the idea you seem to be getting at. He wasn't a rounded character. He existed as a crutch for the lead's existential crises and was always jolly and philosophical for the benefit of the lead. I don't think we learned anything about him.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Apr 4, 2014)

spring-peeper said:


> There are a few, I've seen ads for them.  .



Such as?


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Apr 4, 2014)

Yuwipi Woman said:


> I'm not making that argument at all.  I'm saying that in the RL, you're better off being told "you can" than you are being told "you can't." .



I don't know about that. I never really felt empowered having people come up to me and say 'you must play basketball!', even when it occurred for the thousandth time.


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## spanglechick (Apr 4, 2014)

Fez909 said:


> I was actually trying to suggest characters who might fit the idea you seem to be getting at. He wasn't a rounded character. He existed as a crutch for the lead's existential crises and was always jolly and philosophical for the benefit of the lead. I don't think we learned anything about him.


Is that what's meant by stereotyping then? Cos that just sounds like an undeveloped supporting character, and that's the norm in fiction across all media and from all countries.  

I thought we were looking for parts like criminals and absent fathers and rappers and I dunno... all the other stereotypes of black people.


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## Supine (Apr 4, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> aw right then, dunt matter then does it?



Dont selectively quote me like that matey, very disingenuous. What I said was "Same as Raj in BBT. *He's a great character imo, and nothing like a stereotype for an Indian abroad character.* Tbf I don't reckon Americans would have a clue about real Indians so probably wouldn't know what a stereotype is."


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## Orang Utan (Apr 4, 2014)

Supine said:


> Dont selectively quote me like that matey, very disingenuous. What I said was "Same as Raj in BBT. *He's a great character imo, and nothing like a stereotype for an Indian abroad character.* Tbf I don't reckon Americans would have a clue about real Indians so probably wouldn't know what a stereotype is."


Aw right then doubt matter then does it?


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## Supine (Apr 4, 2014)

I didn't offer an opinion on whether it matters


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## Mation (Apr 4, 2014)

Fez909 said:


> I was actually trying to suggest characters who might fit the idea you seem to be getting at. He wasn't a rounded character. He existed as a crutch for the lead's existential crises and was always jolly and philosophical for the benefit of the lead. I don't think we learned anything about him.


Ah, ok - sorry. I missed that.


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## goldenecitrone (Apr 4, 2014)

Mation said:


> Whenever I hear interviews with black British actors, they say that there are very few parts for black people that aren't stereotypes. It seems an odd point to take issue with... There just aren't many non-stereotyped black roles.


 
This can only be the fault of the writers, presumably white writers who don't really have the insight and experience to write non-stereotypical black roles. More black writers would be the obvious answer.


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## littlebabyjesus (Apr 4, 2014)

goldenecitrone said:


> This can only be the fault of the writers, presumably white writers who don't really have the insight and experience to write non-stereotypical black roles. More black writers would be the obvious answer.


Maybe. There are plenty of roles I can think of where the character's particular ethnic background isn't much of a thing, though. Born in Britain, grew up here. Could just as easily be black as white, but isn't cast as black, because being black is 'a thing', somehow, while being white isn't.


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## Fez909 (Apr 7, 2014)

I wonder how many Guardian journos lurk here?

Repressed Brits, evil Mexicans, Arab villains: why are Hollywood's animated movies full of racist stereotypes?

http://gu.com/p/3z74n


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Apr 7, 2014)

Supine said:


> Tbf I don't reckon Americans would have a clue about real Indians



Why would that be?


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## Mr Moose (Apr 7, 2014)

Fez909 said:


> The barman in Ashes to Ashes/Life on Mars?



He was a stereotype, but it's a somewhat knowing one as he comes out of 'character' to tell Sam that his customers prefer him to be a certain way, it being 1973.

The theme is revisited with the black policeman who behaves like some of the black comedians of the day telling stereotypical jokes. Thankfully Sam is on hand to tell him he doesn't need to do this and one day things will be more equal.

It's a pleasing revision where white people conquer racism before then going on to invent rap and soul music in the new millennia.


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## Mr Moose (Apr 7, 2014)

Raj in BBT is toe curlingly bad. Surely the 'joke' is that an Indian man cannot relate in any non self conscious way with women. I'm not aware of his character being balanced by another more positive one.

As well as being decidedly creepy he is the one 'nerd' who never seems to show the slightest intellectual ability.


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## DaveCinzano (Apr 7, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> Asians are portrayed in very stereotypical ways in US in quite a few sitcoms and films in a way you wouldn't get away with over here...Short Circuit...



The oneIimmediately thought of.



Sure, it's 1986 - but white actor in brownface, seriously?


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## Fez909 (Apr 7, 2014)

Mr Moose said:


> He was a stereotype, but it's a somewhat knowing one as he comes out of 'character' to tell Sam that his customers prefer him to be a certain way, it being 1973.
> 
> The theme is revisited with the black policeman who behaves like some of the black comedians of the day telling stereotypical jokes. Thankfully Sam is on hand to tell him he doesn't need to do this and one day things will be more equal.
> 
> It's a pleasing revision where white people conquer racism before then going on to invent rap and soul music in the new millennia.


After I posted that I did think about it being a concious stereotype as the show itself is based on stereotypes pretty much.


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## Orang Utan (Apr 7, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> The oneIimmediately thought of.
> 
> 
> 
> Sure, it's 1986 - but white actor in brownface, seriously?



They do it routinely even now - see Prince Of Persia (2010)


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## Belushi (Apr 7, 2014)

Seems as good a place as any to remember Mickey Rooney


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## DotCommunist (Apr 7, 2014)

you'd never get away with that one today


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## goldenecitrone (Apr 7, 2014)

They did say he could play absolutely any role. An actor's actor.


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## DaveCinzano (Apr 7, 2014)

Belushi said:


> Seems as good a place as any to remember Mickey Rooney





> I will never give up my tapes to a bunch of Kennedy-loving Harvard Democrat cocksuckers!


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## eskdave (May 15, 2014)

Most Actors end up hanging upside down freezing and stoned in upturned automobiles in North CA-solved


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## Corax (May 15, 2014)

Mr Moose said:


> Raj in BBT is toe curlingly bad. Surely the 'joke' is that an Indian man cannot relate in any non self conscious way with women.


It's a toe curlingly bad racial stereotype IMO too, but for reasons other than that. I've never for a moment considered that his inability to talk to women is anything to do with his ethnicity, nor conceived that way. How do you come to that reading of it?


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## Mr Moose (May 15, 2014)

Because his ineptness with women is racialised. It's referred to constantly that he is Indian so it can't be said 'he's just a funny character'.


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## skyscraper101 (May 15, 2014)

I only saw Breakfast At Tiffanys recently and I was definitely like WTF when I saw the Mickey Rooney character. Shit film regardless.


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## weltweit (May 15, 2014)

For some reason a thread on here made me think of Fu Manchu who was a fictional evil Chinese man always plotting from an underground lair the destruction of all things good.

What I didn't realise till I looked at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fu_Manchu was that there were quite a lot of complaints at the time.

edited to add, nope it isn't US comedy!


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## Corax (May 15, 2014)

Mr Moose said:


> Because his ineptness with women is racialised. It's referred to constantly that he is Indian so it can't be said 'he's just a funny character'.


Your second sentence: No, it can't. I've already said I think he's a nasty stereotype, and yes the constant referrals to his ethnicity are part of that. We already agree there. It's the ineptness with women bit we're talking about. 

Your first sentence: Is it? I've never noticed any instances of that (which isn't to say they're not there). For some reason I've seen an 'and' where you're seeing a 'because'.


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## skyscraper101 (May 15, 2014)

Get this for a bit of throwaway use of the N word in naff 70s sitcom 'All In The Family' (which is basically just modelled on Britain's 'Till Death Do Us Part').


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