# Sun and Doves pub - owner evicted after by brewery after huge rent rises



## Minnie_the_Minx (Sep 26, 2011)

Sun & Doves has been gutted and is getting a refurb.  Think it's been taken over


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## editor (Sep 27, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Sun & Doves has been gutted and is getting a refurb. Think it's been taken over


I never really 'got' that pub. Seemed like it had been transported in from a completely different area.


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## se5 (Sep 27, 2011)

editor said:


> I never really 'got' that pub. Seemed like it had been transported in from a completely different area.



Very sad - the landlord who has been there for 16 years has been evicted and will be declared bankrupt owing to dispute with pubco http://www.morningadvertiser.co.uk/...ir-Pint-founder-Dodds-to-be-evicted-on-Friday - the same situation of high rents charged by the pub companies and the high costs that landlords have to buy their drinks at under the terms of their tenancy is sadly behind lots of the pub closures, more information at http://www.fairpint.org.uk/


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## editor (Sep 27, 2011)

se5 said:


> Very sad - the landlord who has been there for 16 years has been evicted and will be declared bankrupt owing to dispute with pubco http://www.morningadvertiser.co.uk/...ir-Pint-founder-Dodds-to-be-evicted-on-Friday - the same situation of high rents charged by the pub companies and the high costs that landlords have to buy their drinks at under the terms of their tenancy is sadly behind lots of the pub closures, more information at http://www.fairpint.org.uk/


This really sucks.


> When he took on the pub in 1995, his rent had been £32,000, which rose to £54,000 in 2001 and then £65,000 following arbitration and a High Court case in 2008. This was backdated to 2005. He has never had his 2010 rent review.
> 
> The original rent offer from S&NPC in 2005 had been £82,500.
> An S&NPC spokesman said: "The Scottish & Newcastle Pub Company can confirm that it has applied for and been granted a possession order for the Sun & Doves pub in Camberwell and that this will be carried out on Friday 23rd September 2011.


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## editor (Sep 27, 2011)

The former owner has been adding some very lively comments to the report:


> I've been arguing since April 2005 that increased rent would kill my business. I know my business, my area of London, and what it can and can't afford and I've always offered S&NPC a completely open look at my accounts so they know there's no posturing or bluffing going on.
> 
> My defence in court was that S&NPC had wilfully tried to put me out of business because, in spite of all evidence that any increase would close the business (they even argued that income would GO UP when the smoking ban came in) they simply tried to put me out of business by pursuing as much of an uplift as they thought they could get in their stupid collywaddle traditional pubcodom mumbo jumbo inspired rent review nonsense everyone in this industry adheres to divisible balance and all that.
> 
> ...


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## Guineveretoo (Sep 27, 2011)

I am disappointed that the Sun and Doves has gone. I actually quite liked it there. He was trying to be a bit different, and was keen on making it a bit of a community pub with local musicians, quizzes and film nights, in particular. The food wasn't brilliant, but there was always something I could eat, which was good.

I am not surprised that it has gone, though, because I know the guy was in trouble, and he was getting a bit cross in public, including on the internet, and was making people uncomfortable, and scaring people away.  I recall that he was trying to persuade the local community to buy "shares" of some kind, in order to keep the business going, but I never did think that would work.

I hope it continues as a pub!


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## ska invita (Sep 27, 2011)

exploitative landlordism drives me up the wall. ive read lots of pubs are in this position - small businesses too - do well and the rent goes up - legal extortion, nothing more nothing less. as for london flat rents... :deep breath:


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## toblerone3 (Sep 27, 2011)

Is that the same pub that Skim had her birthday bash in?


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## Private Storm (Sep 27, 2011)

That's a real shame, seemed a decent pub with a some laudable ideas for making it a little more of a community pub.


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## Mrs Magpie (Sep 27, 2011)

It's a pub I only associate with visits to Kings College Hospital. Friends having painful outpatient treatment? Recuperate afterwards in the Sun & Doves. I've also spirited away a Mum who had been by her very sick child's* bed for ages and I got her lunch and a bottle of wine while other relatives sat by the child's bed. It was the first time I'd seen her laugh and relax for a long time. KCH sorted out the medical bits, Sun & Doves lifted the spirits over a decent lunch. OK, food at the Sun & Doves isn't like going to a good restaurant, but I never had less than a perfectly acceptable nice meal there, and it was a million times better than anything you could get in the hospital. I will miss it.

*despite a really nasty meningitis type brain infection he got better


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## Mrs Magpie (Sep 27, 2011)

Oh, and I once worked for Scottish and Newcastle and they are indeed a bunch of grasping cunts.


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## bluestreak (Sep 28, 2011)

so it's become a ghastly overpriced shithole, and every few years the landlord will move on; repeat until sold for redevelopment.

sometimes i think BigBrew gives the BigMusic a run for their money in how to ruin their own business.


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## Mrs Magpie (Sep 28, 2011)

bluestreak said:


> sometimes i think BigBrew gives the BigMusic a run for their money in how to ruin their own business.


Yup.


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## Crispy (Sep 28, 2011)

I liked the SAD. Big garden, decent food and that French bar lady who could take three orders at once and slice the foam off the top of a pint of lager at 20 paces without disturbing her fringe. She was ace.


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## Griffter (Sep 28, 2011)

I totally agree with Mrs Magpie. I remember staggering down there after a terrible night and a morning in the children's intensive care ward, shell shocked and not knowing what was going on. The staff in the pub were fantastic - didn't flinch as I stood at the bar red-eyed and blubbering, it felt like they were used to seeing people in this sort of state. After two or three pints and kidneys on toast the world felt slightly easier to cope with. I'm sure that there have been hundreds of people who have managed to gain a bit of perspective by escaping to the S&D and the fact that had a very relaxed atmosphere and provided decent food and booze was a straightforward formula but one that so many places fail to deliver. Shame on Scottish & Newcastle.


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## Mrs Magpie (Sep 28, 2011)

...and really child friendly too.


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## Mrs Magpie (Sep 28, 2011)

Actually I also clearly remember buying a rare steak sandwich with rocket in the S&D and rushing it, still hot, into the Orthopaedic ward for a friend in traction who was desperate for something easy to eat that didn't come served lukewarm on a plastic tray.


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## mark dodds (Sep 29, 2011)

Hello people - and Guineveretoo in particular, I'm the cross, annoyed guy who made people feel uncomfortable about going to 'my' pub and scared them away by blogging about how I was being bent over and financially ruined, mugged, made homeless and shafted in public by a lying cheating thieving scumbag pubco called Scottish & Newcastle Pub Company (they do not run pubs) and Royal Bank of Scotland, who actually own the freehold of the Sun and Doves.

Might you be cross if you'd invested everything you'd ever saved and all your energy and experience and knowledge and people networks to be mugged and left financially ruined? I'm 53, I've earned nothing out of the pub for the last five years, I will be bankrupt in a month. I have nothing - I'm homeless, my relationship of 16 years broken down, I cannot currently contribute to my children's upkeep and a few other things I shouldn't bleat on about that I'll leave you to imagine. I'm being open about this not to wring my hands in public - but to point out the reality of what happens when a publican is evicted. And it happens to THOUSANDS of people every year. Quietly in the background of our daily lives pub folk are being turfed out all over the UK. It's a cultural catastrophe and it's all because of a small number of overly greedy pubcos who between them employ three or four thousand people against the 150,000 who are employed by the publicans who rent their pubs and make ALL the pubcos £millions. It's not right and you lot don't know what really goes on and I want you to.

I'm interested to know exactly what else someone in my situation should have done? Just kept quiet? Just gone bankrupt without a fight? WHERE in my rent contract with the pubco did it say that every five years they would try to more than double my rent, in perpetuity? And where in my contract with the pubco did it say that they will be charging me, after the 'generous' discount they offer their tenants, DOUBLE what it cost to buy beer direct from a brewer or wholesaler?

Well, after my nervous breakdown in 2007 and before I went bankrupt I brought the people together who were needed to set up a national campaign against the beer tie and although it's not been in time to save me, the tie WILL be outlawed at some point, in years rather than never, and that seems like a good result.

You pub goers need to know what is happening to OUR pubs. The beer tie is ubiquitous in the UK, it is everywhere among pubs. The majority of pubs are tied and as the vicar says "so it's(ll) become a ghastly overpriced shithole, and every few years the landlord will move on; repeat until sold for redevelopment." you have it EXACTLY bluestreak. My prediction is that The Sun and Doves will become a Grand Union at upwards of £4 a pint and £9 for a burger. I hope it does so I can point out what a load of bollocks this statement on their website actually is: "our commitment to restoring British pubs to their rightful place at the heart of their communities"...

IN fact the pubco cancer is so prevalent in our society I consider it my funadamental DUTY to expose their appalling practices and make it known far and wide that pubcos are the prime reason for pubs being boarded up all over the country.

And here's a set of photos of us breaking down the pub so the pubco couldn't steal the fixtures and fittings as well as everything else they've taken from us over the years: http://bit.ly/rmlf27

Toward the end now, for Guineveretoo particularly again given that you never did think it would work, I got seventy people interested in buying their local two years ago - but RBS and S&NPC would not entertain an offer of £930,000 and said if you can get investors for the freehold why can't you get them to put more money into your business? Because the rent and beer prices mean it always loses money maybe?

Anyway, finally for the moment at least this is what everything I've learned in the last twenty years has led me to devise for the future of pubs: http://bit.ly/qpe85z

It's called The People's Pub Partnership. John Lewis have been helping me with corporate structure. It's an affiliate of the Employee Owners Association. CAMRA say they will endorse it if it is constituted on a cooperative model. The Plunkett Foundation are interested in supporting it if I can establish a means of having community investment as well as employee ownership. And THAT Guineveretoo, is just the top of an iceberg of support that I've been working on building up for this for the last two years.


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## temper_tantrum (Sep 29, 2011)

Good luck to you, Mark.


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## Crispy (Sep 29, 2011)

All the very best, Mark. The pub industry in this country is badly broken and it's heartening to see your passion to fix it.


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## King Biscuit Time (Sep 29, 2011)

Here's something that happened up the road from me - and the end result has been a total winner. Lovely pub with plenty of people in it drinking decent beer and wine.

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-s...d-local-ales-are-saving-our-pubs-2189027.html


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## mark dodds (Sep 29, 2011)

Another Day Older and DEEPER IN DEBT.

J Mark Dodds, after sixteen years as lessee of The Sun and Doves, was served eviction papers by Scottish &amp; Newcastle Pub Company for 23 September 2011.

This was the end of a six year long battle over a completely unsustainable rent review from 2005 rent where S&amp;NPC wanted to increase rent from £54K to £92K.

Mark argued from the outset, with open book accounting, that any increase would make the business fail but, asa ever with pub companies, his arguments were met with derision and the pubco aggressively pursued the increase through Arbitration, High Court, Appeal, back to High Court and Arbitration in an exhausting process that took years and tens of thousands of pounds to 'resolve'...

As money ran out once the rent increase was applied, it became increasingly difficult to meet the business's financial obligations and from October 2008 Mark told the pubco they would never get the back rent because - as he had argued consistently for years - there was no profit and the business could not afford it.

Eventually, following three years of procrastination and legal arguments S&amp;NPC took legal action to evict Mark and got a warrant to change the locks on 23 September 2011, two days short of sixteen years since he signed the lease.

A team from The Sun and Doves' staff approached S&amp;NPC with a proposal to continue business at the pub but S&amp;N were recalcitrant as ever and lied, obfuscated, cheated, connived and generally scumbagged as they always do, to slow negotiations down in the hope that they could lock everyone out and seize the pub's fixtures and fittings on the day of Mark's eviction.

The staff and Mark interpreted the deceit and double dealing as evidence that S&amp;NPC had no intention whatsoever of allowing continuation of trade and decided to vacate the pub in advance of the eviction notice.

None of the pub's equipment, fixtures or fittings (bar, seating, light fittings etc etc) belonged to the pubco so as much of it as possible was removed and sold in the two days before eviction.

Mark left the pub owing the pubco around £200K in back rent and legal costs. The building needs around £100K attention to basic needs of upkeep and maintenance like re-wiring, new plumbing, water and gas mains, exterior rendering, pointing, repairing leaking rooves and so on. Replacing the bar and properly refurbishing the building will cost at least £200K.

Prediction: The Sun and Doves will become a Grand Union.

THE SUN AND DOVES
25 September 1995 - 23 September 2011


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## mark dodds (Sep 29, 2011)

Thanks crispy and King Biscuit Time. What better names could have come together at this auspicious moment?

I'm about to get in touch with Thornbridge as it happens

Serendipity abounds if you let it...


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## gaijingirl (Sep 29, 2011)

What a sad and depressing story.  Well done for trying to make something good from it all and good luck to you.


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## nagapie (Sep 29, 2011)

I liked the Sun and Doves. It's a tragic story but I'm glad you've achieved something from your fight.


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## mark dodds (Sep 29, 2011)

Thanks to you who liked The Sun and Doves. Will just point out that, had the pub been mine, really, as opposed to it being just a case of my being in the pocket of the pubco, it would have been much more than it managed to be.

I would have been able to invest much more in the premises than I was able - there would have been a roof terrace and letting rooms and awnings at the front and the exhibition programme, which was quite successful, would have continued past 2005 - and the place would have had a lot more pzazz than it did. The kitchen would have been completely rebuilt, there would have been a cold room and extraction and, actually, the plan I researched in 2003 to make the pub the first carbon neutral pub in the world might actually have come to pass. Back then S&NPC were totally recalcitrant and stubbornly reluctant to get involved in a scheme their projects manager said 'might set a precedent for all our refurbishments across the estate'.

A precedent that would have made S&NPC the leading pubco in Britain with an estate that generated no carbon. That would have been shit wouldn't it.


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## stuff_it (Sep 29, 2011)

mark dodds said:


> None of the pub's equipment, fixtures or fittings (bar, seating, light fittings etc etc) belonged to the pubco so as much of it as possible was removed and sold in the two days before eviction.
> 
> Mark left the pub owing the pubco around £200K in back rent and legal costs. The building needs around £100K attention to basic needs of upkeep and maintenance like re-wiring, new plumbing, water and gas mains, exterior rendering, pointing, repairing leaking rooves and so on. *Replacing the bar* and properly refurbishing the building will cost at least £200K.



Lol, the bar and everything.

TBF if you didn't someone else would have if they weren't planning to keep it going as a business. If all your bookkeeping was straight up that you showed them then they probably won't see it as making a high enough return for them, seeing as you went under.

Probably get turned into flats 

Someone should squat it...


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## mark dodds (Sep 29, 2011)

@stuff_it: The pubco make massive returns out of pubs. That is why pubs are closing everywhere - the pubco's take all the profit and leave nothing for the leaseholders. The leaseholders can't invest, because they've got nothing to put back in, the pubs get tatty, the customers abandon them for somewhere better appointed and the pubco evicts the tenant; gets a new one in who spendsa bunch of cash making the pub look better; it gets busier again - and hey presto the pubco's raking it back in again. Without spending a penny.

I went under because they were making £160K out of me while I was making nothing.

Read above. I predict it's going to become a Grand Union. They'll spend £300K on it and it will do £25K a week and they'll make £500K a year. It's not complicated; it's how the pub industry works.

Grand Union will then sell out all their pubs as a group to the biggest and most stupid pubco who will run them into the ground but the Grand Union bods will have become millionares in the process and a whole bunch more proper pubs will have been lost. Until the revolution...


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## craigxcraig (Sep 29, 2011)

Like Mrs. M, I have fond memories of whisking friends out of hospital for a medicinal beverage, onebeing my wife whilst still wearing her pyjamas! Good luck in the future Mark, it's a real shame to lose this pub and your commitment to it and the local area.


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## stuff_it (Sep 29, 2011)

Oh no, I agree the whole industry has gone nuts. I met a bloke once serving in my ex-local (which had gone bust) who's entire job was to be parachuted into failed pubs by the pubco to avoid leaving them empty and not earning - he said he'd been so many places and how busy he had been that year (two years ago). Can't recall which pubco it was but my understanding was that they had a whole team of people to do this, not bothered about people going under at all - seeming to expect it even.


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## not-bono-ever (Sep 29, 2011)

sorry to hear this - we went to the S&D for a slap up lunch after the mrs had her pregnancy confirmed at KCH - so good memories of the place

the arseholes who own the shitty production line  gastro pubs in east dulwich seem to be aquiring everything in sight and offer nothing new, yet seem to be full every single night and are probabaly making money hand over fist

good luck mark


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## Guineveretoo (Sep 29, 2011)

Good luck to you, Mark -  I hope your fortunes change soon.

I haven't read all your posts, because I wanted to say this before doing so, in response to the fact that you namechecked me in your first post 

I am one of the people who liked the Sun and Doves, and I bemoan its passing. I was not trying to imply that you had brought on your own downfall. I was merely stating that I had seen you being angry online, and I assumed that there was a reason for you being angry. The fact is, though, that you had got an unfortunate reputation for being unreasonable whenever anyone criticised your pub, which certainly made quite a few people uncomfortable, and I know quite a few people who stopped going there because of that.

However, I was not one of the people who criticised the pub, because I liked it! I even won the quiz there a couple of years ago, on my birthday, which was great fun.


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## mark dodds (Sep 29, 2011)

Thanks Guineveretoo - Didn't think you dislike the pub - I read your comment and thought it worth bringing up what you did and so referred to you. I don't know how to do a smile there.  is that it!

My reputation for being unreasonable whenever any one criticises my pub. Well I guess that some people just don't like being offered the chance for a pub, bar, restaurant to make amends when they go off pop on public blogs telling everyone a place is shit - I've been in hospitality for more than thirty years and, believe me, I've seen it all.

My take on it is this: I assume they had a terrible time. Why else would they go out of their way to smear about it? I try to get to the bottom of what happened - go back to the staff concerned, get their side - and sometimes it really IS a catalogue of complete stupidity on their part which I take responsibility for, even if I was on the other side of the world when it happened - and then generally offer the disgruntled punter free food, drink and what ever they would like, if they can bear to come back and give the place another chance. Very often they accept. Sometimes they tell me I'm a wanker and well, that's their problem not mine.

I suggest that anyone you know who feels they were met by the brunt of my approbrium coming back at them when they complained on a forum instead of to me directly if they felt the staff didn't deal with it properly, or to the staff who were messing up at the time - that it's THEIR difficulty in not being vocal enough in the bar when they should have been - or in not kicking up a holy fuss to me directly; I'm not exactly hard to get hold of, even if I'm homeless... email makes it so. And SOME of these people who complain loudly and nastily on forums say they actually KNOW ME as if that gives them some deep authority to talk loud about how crap my business is while they post under a veil of anonymity. Where DO they get that effed up point of view and just how do they think it will influence my desire to respond civilly to their public mud-slinging? I still offer them refunds / replacements / free stuff. Sometimes they turn it down - "nothing on this earth will ever make up for the dreadful experience I had at your pub so don't try and get round me" - that sort of thing.

Yep - It's THEIR problem. And life's too short.

Thanks for taking the time to post X

Have a look at this thread to see what I mean:

http://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/forum/read.php?20,632369,page=1


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## LoopZilla (Sep 30, 2011)

More of a micro than a pub. Microcosm I mean....

LoopZilla


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 1, 2011)

editor said:


> I never really 'got' that pub. Seemed like it had been transported in from a completely different area.



Very rare I drank in there but I go past it frequently and the day I actually wanted to go in because it was a warm day was when I discovered it was shut.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 1, 2011)

> My prediction is that The Sun and Doves will become a Grand Union at upwards of £4 a pint and £9 for a burger.



Is the Grand Union a chain then?

I went to the one in Kennington yesterday after War Museum.  £5.75 for a pint of lager and half a coke from the tap


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## LoopZilla (Oct 1, 2011)

Looks like a chain, quacks like a chain....

http://www.grandunionbars.com/bar-grill/


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## editor (Oct 1, 2011)

The bloke who owns Grand Union was on the Dragons Den recently boasting about how he now makes loads of dosh without actually doing very much at all.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 1, 2011)

Fucking idiot in the one near the Imperial War Museum served me a pint, despite me asking for a half, and him asking me twice if I asked for a half. 

Couldn't find a price list for the normal drinks either, only for the cocktails/wines/food menu, so no idea how much each drink cost


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## wemakeyousoundb (Oct 1, 2011)

Only went in there once I think, but seeing a non-chain pubs close is always sad.
Pubcos are evil.
:/


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 1, 2011)

I went into the Greyhound in Streatham today.  That's changed massively.  Used to be a right dive of a pub (and funnily enough, I think it was owned by Scottish and Newcastle).  Has a great beer garden which was getting a huge amount of afternoon sun and actually felt hotter than sitting on Streatham Common, but didn't really like the place. Imagine it's popular wit h sports fans though as has a big screen and a huge screen and lots of sofas.  £3.85 for half a lager and a diet coke.


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## FridgeMagnet (Oct 1, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Fucking idiot in the one near the Imperial War Museum served me a pint, despite me asking for a half, and him asking me twice if I asked for a half.


I boycott Grand Unions after, when I went into the one round here (by Ravenscourt Park, fact fans) dead empty in the middle of the day and asked for a coffee, the tit behind the bar screwed up his face in the worst pretentious sneer and said "we don't serve _hot drinks_". Well, I don't drink in your pub then you cunt.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 1, 2011)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I boycott Grand Unions after, when I went into the one round here (by Ravenscourt Park, fact fans) dead empty in the middle of the day and asked for a coffee, the tit behind the bar screwed up his face in the worst pretentious sneer and said "we don't serve _hot drinks_". Well, I don't drink in your pub then you cunt.


 
Twat 

oh, last post was supposed to be in the Brixton thread.  Sorry Mods


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## mark dodds (Oct 3, 2011)

Grand Union has been created to build up and sell off at a great profit before the chickens come home to roost. It's a common business model - been done many times; invent a brand, stuff it with its own unique feel, style, ambience, products and pzazz then expand rapidly to ten - twenty or more units and sell off to the highest bidder - typically one of the big pubcos - or brewers with pubco trading arms - wanting to extend their market dominance into areas where they're under represented. Makes the principals of the small chain into millionaires in a matter of years while they and the bloated pubco/brewers gloat about 'fabulous shareholder value and it's win win for everyone' (except the staff and the punters of course). In a matter of months, sliding into a couple or three years, the chain's product offering and individuality is absorbed into the monolith, becomes devoid of any of the vacuous character or apparent 'independence' it ever had to begin with and is completely forgotten about.

That's the wonder of unfettered capitalism.

A BIG PILE OF SHITE.

Been busy fending off calls from C.I.D. about Scottish & Newcastle's allegations that I stole goods belonging to them and created 'criminal damage' as I left the premises before their monkeys turned up to change the locks. The S&N fools are wasting police time trying to get third parties to harass me instead of spending money chasing me on a civil matter - which they can never win, as they don't have a leg to stand on: I didn't 'steal' anything.

DId I mention the People's Pub Partnership? The antidote to conventional pubco badness: http://bit.ly/qpe85z


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## Crispy (Oct 3, 2011)

Got any examples of that?


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## mark dodds (Oct 3, 2011)

editor said:


> The bloke who owns Grand Union was on the Dragons Den recently boasting about how he now makes loads of dosh without actually doing very much at all.



People like that don't like work really, they operate on laws of averages and by throwing lots of cash around at a business idea. It's a pubco model within a pubco model. You have X number of outlets generating Y amount of income together with costs overall averaging Z. As long as Y remains at A over Z remaining at B a healthy profit will out, no matter how many outlets you have and it all looks great from shareholders and the Board's short sighted point of view because the company will be valued according to averages and spread of outlets by a brewer wanting to get its product 'out there'. The fact that anything up to 20% of outlets run under such a model are more or less dead ducks in brackish water is irrelevant, the whole remains buoyant as long as some of them are pumping cash into the pond.

If you look at the performance of GU's estate in detail they're no great shakes as separate units but all together they work. Their Camberwell branch is flat and underperforming mainly because it's the wrong location for their market - this is why I have a hunch the Sun and Doves will go to them, I reckon GU would do a storm on Coldharbour Lane - almost as much as they do on Acre Lane in Brixton where I've heard they've done £90K some weeks. I ASSURE you £90K is a phenomena that pumps cash through their whole chain operation, making up for any lacklustre performance there is at any of their other outlets where locations have been chosen badly.


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## dylanredefined (Oct 3, 2011)

So they now have an empty pub and a none recoverable debt?I no nothing about business ,but,seems idiotic way to do business.You look at the books decide how much money you can get out of a pub while keeping the people who run the pub happy and go from there would seem the way  things should work.
     Good luck with the future.


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## FridgeMagnet (Oct 3, 2011)

dylanredefined said:


> So they now have an empty pub and a none recoverable debt?I no nothing about business ,but,seems idiotic way to do business.You look at the books decide how much money you can get out of a pub while keeping the people who run the pub happy and go from there would seem the way  things should work.


You'd think, wouldn't you? Unfortunately, from the experience of having my local bought out twice recently, seeing how it was run and getting all the gossip from the staff about the company's workings, I've come to the conclusion that not only are pubcos greedy bastards, but also _useless_ greedy bastards. They seem to operate on the cycle of

(a) get a load of capital from somewhere;
(b) buy some pubs;
(c) remove all local character and individuality to conform to a completely bland image;
(d) rely on the capital and those few pubs that are making money to coast them along, while the area managers gradually ruin the pubs they have and piss off all the decent staff, and make terrible business decisions like getting rid of things which sell or refusing to do vital repairs;
(e) sell the pubs to another pubco that isn't quite so far along the process and still has money.


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## dylanredefined (Oct 3, 2011)

What sort of wanker gives these people money?Oh right bankers.


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## lang rabbie (Oct 3, 2011)

FridgeMagnet said:


> You'd think, wouldn't you? Unfortunately, from the experience of having my local bought out twice recently, seeing how it was run and getting all the gossip from the staff about the company's workings, I've come to the conclusion that not only are pubcos greedy bastards, but also _useless_ greedy bastards. They seem to operate on the cycle of
> 
> (a) get a load of capital from somewhere;
> (b) buy some pubs;
> ...



A lot of the "pubcos" are divided between an operating arm "opco" and a property arm "propco", and then borrowed heavily against the value of the property portfolio.  The gameplan of some of the pubcos in recent years has been to show that their marginal sites were "uneconomic" as pubs (which they would be if they were subject to PubCo beer prices and ridiculous rents) and sell them off for residential redevelopment.  Most London pubs outside town centres were worth a lot more on the property market converted to flats than as pubs.


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## Gramsci (Oct 4, 2011)

Grand Union had run in with licensing in Twickenham with complaints from Police.

http://www.richmondandtwickenhamtim...faces_losing_licence_after__violent_attacks_/

and here is the minutes of the committee

http://www.richmond.gov.uk/council_committees_list?mgl=mgAi.aspx&ID=22152

They didnt lose it in the end but its revealing reading. This bar pulled in the money on late night drinking. Sounds like any other late night drinking hole not some kind of special brand.

In my experience of dealing with licensing issues and pubs the Police only get involved if its serious.


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## innit (Oct 4, 2011)

I'm really sorry to hear this, Mark. I used to work for you, a long time ago, and although I didn't drink there any more I remember what a special place it was.

I noticed the pub had closed but assumed it was by choice. I am very sad, and angry. Hope you and your family and Nicola and everyone working there are ok.


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## LoopZilla (Oct 4, 2011)

_>>>>>>A lot of the "pubcos" are divided between an operating arm "opco" and a property arm "propco", and then borrowed heavily against the value of the property portfolio. _

Sounds just like Southern Cross!!!_
_


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## mark dodds (Oct 4, 2011)

innit said:


> I'm really sorry to hear this, Mark. I used to work for you, a long time ago, and although I didn't drink there any more I remember what a special place it was.
> 
> I noticed the pub had closed but assumed it was by choice. I am very sad, and angry. Hope you and your family and Nicola and everyone working there are ok.



Thanks Innit. Maybe we should meet up sometime for a catch-up.

The pub industry is dominated by mediocrity at every level save that of the occasional independent minded pub that's run by people whose outlook is to provide something to other people they don't get as customers themselves and so infuse everything they do with their own character and outlook. That sort of thing is what makes some pubs really special...the problem with the majority of pubs is they are owned by pubco's - some of the comments above touch on the complexities of the set up - and pubco's want a lot of money for doing nothing. Someone above asked something like 'who puts their money into this kind of thing' WELL it's the lessees who put the money in. New lessees take on a pub and invest their own money - and everything else like life and soul - into the property to make it their own, so to speak (oh how wrong they are!), this injection of cash and commitment makes the business busy and everyone seems happy, the tenants are working their butt off to keep it vibrant and busy, too busy to realise they're not making enough money to ever repay the £150K investment they put in, let alone provide a decent standard of living - they are thinking: 'besides none of that matters, we're so busy working all the time we don't need money, really, and we're bound to get a chance to work it out down the line', and the pubco's employee in charge of site no 114233 is thinking: 'hmmmm next rent review coming, big increase for pubco, big bonus for me and those fuckers will have to sweat to make my pay packet what I want it to be'.

The rent review comes the tenants get shafted, whatever profits they were making are converted into rent payments, the pubco gets richer the pub gets poorer, the pub needs redecoration; it doesn't get it because there's not enough money around, the owners/publicans/lessees/tenants begin to flag because they can't keep up the furious work rate they set themselves when they started out, business begins to tail off as newer places take away the odd customer here and there, the staff have to work harder to keep people coming in, the people keep drifting away as the pub becomes ever slightly less attractive and slightly more scuffed around the edges, they have to cut back on staff because there's not enough income coming in - and so service becomes patchier than it should be and more customers get a poor experience and stop coming so often - ans so it goes on, a spiral of decline, standards eroding, customers leaving, owners becoming demoralised, rent going up, beer prices going up. And so on until the business fades away and eventually fails.

That's about the sum of it really. The pub fails and another lessee comes along thinking they can do it better. I lasted sixteen years of this pernicious reality at The Sun and Doves. Most new tied lessees are out of their pub within three years now... That's why the pubco's are doing deals with chains - they're more likely to pay the rent for longer. It's called Covenant. It's ALL ABOUT MONEY and NOTHING ELSE.

Vergreedy Verstupid Vapid pubco's but it all works on that law of averages. The cash injection by other people into their estate, the work put into their estate - by other people - all done with no workforce to employ and no legal responsibility for the properties - everything is done by thousands of lessees.

Here are some lies published on Scottish & Newcastle Pub Company's website:

"WITH S&NPC YOU'RE IN GOOD COMPANY

If you have ever wanted to run your own pub, Scottish & Newcastle Pub Company could be your perfect pub partner.

For over 200 years we have been creating great British pubs and we never forget a great pub starts with a great operator.

With S&NPC you run your pub your way but you also have the backing of one of the world’s largest brewing operations who can supply the brands, the training and everything else you need to achieve your ambitions in the pub industry.

Whether your ideal pub is cosy country inn, lively community local or chic city centre bar our extensive estate offers a huge variety of pubs in attractive locations across the UK.

Just take a look at our interactive map to see our current list of available pubs and if you want to make your pub dream a reality email us or call *FREEPHONE 0500 94 95 96* - we’re waiting to hear from you!"

Our mission is to offer pub customers the very best pub experience in their area. If you share this vision you can start your application today.

S&N’s leased pub operation was renamed Scottish & Newcastle Pub Company (S&NPC) (following being bought by Heineken) and whilst our name may have changed our commitment to restoring British pubs to their rightful place at the heart of their communities remains the same.

OUR SUPPORT
We pride ourselves on offering British pub goers the best possible pub experience and we achieve this through a continuous programme of investment in both our pubs and the people who run them.

OUR LESSEES
We pride ourselves on offering British pub goers the best possible pub experience and we achieve this through a continuous programme of investment in both our pubs and the people who run them.

OUR PROMISE
Behind every successful pub is a successful operator but not all our lessees have years of experience behind the bar. We welcome applications regardless of previous experience or qualifications; all you need is the drive and commitment to succeed.

OUR FUTURE
The modern pub has to adapt to meet changing customer expectations and *Bar Boosters*, S&NPC’s exclusive range of ‘set up and go’ alternative income opportunities, is designed to do just that.

Whatever your working background, we will offer you all the training and support you need to run a successful pub. This begins with our four day *Innside Knowledge *training course and includes our *Innside Track* Business Support program designed to make stocktaking and accountancy accessible to everyone.

BUNCH OF FOOLS.

Go ON CALL THEM!


----------



## mark dodds (Oct 4, 2011)

LoopZilla said:


> _>>>>>>A lot of the "pubcos" are divided between an operating arm "opco" and a property arm "propco", and then borrowed heavily against the value of the property portfolio. _
> 
> Sounds just like Southern Cross!!!



Many have made that connection Gordo

What's even more silly from a business sustainability point of view, and possibly legally dodgy, is the pubco's ALSO borrow against projected future income from the beer tie. Not an accepted accounting practice but one that has become habitual in the pubco world of securitisation...

Still, when was a company going to be sustainable when its sole motivation is shareholder value and profit, at any cost?


----------



## LoopZilla (Oct 4, 2011)

Are you listening to Radio 4?



http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b015ck8y

>>>Michael Portillo asks if free-market capitalism is a broken system.<<<<


----------



## LoopZilla (Oct 4, 2011)

How about a Care Quality Commission for pubs?


----------



## Laughing Toad (Oct 4, 2011)

LoopZilla said:


> Are you listening to Radio 4?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


. . . . and firmly concludes that it is not. It's got a billion Chinese people out of poverty.


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## mark dodds (Oct 4, 2011)

Capitalism is killing the planet


----------



## mark dodds (Oct 4, 2011)

LoopZilla said:


> How about a Care Quality Commission for pubs?



There would be no way of funding it and no one to run it


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## mark dodds (Oct 4, 2011)

4 October 2011

from: Mark Dodds. No Fixed Abode

TO:
Representatives of Scottish & Newcastle Pub Company

Re: Mark Dodds / The Sun and Doves Public House,
Camberwell, London SE5. Outlet 116144

Since 23 September representatives of your company have attempted to deceive police by making false allegations about the circumstances of my leaving the above pub.

Your employees' repeated false statements include telling the police that I have committed criminal damage and have stolen property belonging to your company. I left the building in compliance with the terms of your company's eviction notice and these serious misrepresentations of fact must immediately cease being reported. 

Further to this your company's actions are an abuse of limited public resources as there are no legitimate grounds for your employees to be vexatiously wasting police time. Your employees' motives are clearly aimed at intimidating me vicariously by attempting to deceive third parties into harassing me in the place of your company taking civil action to attempt to recover goods it does not own. Immediately inform your employees to cease and desist from making these accusations. 

For clarity: If your employees continue to make false allegations and insinuations to the police regarding my supposedly criminal activity I will apply for an injunction against S&NPC.

Furthermore I will publish this correspondence as widely as possible and make a point of informing all pub industry stakeholders, politicians and the press, both trade and national, about your company's actions.

If you consider there to be grounds for your company to make a civil case I will be pleased to correspond directly with an employee who has authority to do so via this email address. Any queries your staff may have about any property they have accused me of stealing I will respond to without delay. In this regard you may consider referring your employees to the detailed inventories and lease agreements proving ownership which, at their request, I gave them in meetings over the past three years.

If you want to correspond about my leaving the pub in general, for example you may like the next lessees to have an insight into the pub's interesting history - I will be pleased to share my knowledge with any future lessee, you may also do so via email to this address as I now am of no fixed abode, having been evicted.

Further to these matters if your company believes I owe it any money please send an up to date, full and final, statement of all accounts outstanding. Please be sure to include all new and invented claims by 15 October for the interest of the Official Receiver in my case who I will be pleased to pass your correspondence on to by return. 

Sincerely, I look forward to your confirmation of action

Mark Dodds


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## mark dodds (Oct 4, 2011)

Having some fun trying to work out what maximum file size is for uploading here!


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 4, 2011)

mark dodds said:


> Having some fun trying to work out what maximum file size is for uploading here!



Link not leading anywhere


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## mark dodds (Oct 4, 2011)




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## mark dodds (Oct 4, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Link not leading anywhere



Am confused. Must stop being so!

Also trying to get hold of email address for Brixton Police - so I can copy them in to that letter above along with my MP and some other Industry people. Don't suppose anyone here has one I can use?


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## Crispy (Oct 4, 2011)

256KB


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 4, 2011)

mark dodds said:


> Am confused. Must stop being so!



Looks like you've sorted it


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## Dan U (Oct 4, 2011)

This is a shit tale. Have you contacted private eye? Pubco's are a favourite of theirs

Best of luck with the rest of your life


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## mark dodds (Oct 4, 2011)

Private eye - Fair Pint were feeding PE articles for a few months last year - haven't been in touch recently, perhaps that's a good idea thanks for reminding me!


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 4, 2011)

More contacting of newspapers I reckon.  There's a lot of the general public that aren't aware of how breweries/pubs work.  There's plenty of yuppies in the Sun & Doves that must have some contacts.


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## George & Bill (Oct 5, 2011)

I absolutely regret the closure of the Sun & Doves, and having worked on and off in pubs in the past and known people who've run them, find the behaviour of pubcos reprehensible.

I think it's a shame that Mark didn't mention staff treatment, pay, and conditions in his list of 'things I'd have done differently given the chance' - because the S&D, while not the worst I have known in this respect, did little to improve the lot of bar staff, who had to put up with the same minimum wage, lack of tax records, being sent home half way through a quiet shift, and general insecurity as elsewhere in the industry. I know this from working there. In common with other pubs I've worked in, the owners of the S&D seemed uninterestethere their staff on a personal level - when I worked there, I saw them, but they never introduced themselves to me, or offered and words of welcome. 

And I think Mark should realise that no matter how real and awful his grievance, his histrionics do come across as self-pitying and excessive.


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## Gramsci (Oct 6, 2011)

@Mark Dodds

Is slowjoe correct on how staff were treated? Only paying minimum wage?


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## DJWrongspeed (Oct 6, 2011)

I think Kings should buy it as an outside smoking venue for their staff, it kind of is already


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 6, 2011)

DJWrongspeed said:


> I think Kings should buy it as an outside smoking venue for their staff, it kind of is already



I know, and I hate walking past there smoking.  I feel guilty knowing it's full of medical staff and they're tsking tsking as you walk past, until you realise why they're all sitting outside


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## ViolentPanda (Oct 6, 2011)

stuff_it said:


> Oh no, I agree the whole industry has gone nuts. I met a bloke once serving in my ex-local (which had gone bust) who's entire job was to be parachuted into failed pubs by the pubco to avoid leaving them empty and not earning - he said he'd been so many places and how busy he had been that year (two years ago). Can't recall which pubco it was but my understanding was that they had a whole team of people to do this, not bothered about people going under at all - seeming to expect it even.



The"churn" of static landlords can be ridiculous too. My dad's local (small town, situated on the main through road, with good local and passing trade) is pubco-owned (Punch IIRC) and has had 4 in 6 years. The poor sods come in bright-eyed and bushy-tailed, trade for about 6 months and then get hit with rent and price rises. It wouldn't be so bad if there was unitary pricing by each pubco, but apparently what you pay per barrel sometimes varies according to the whim of some suit in an office!  The local community has looked into buying up the freehold, but the pubco wants silly money, to cover their "losses" if they sell off a cash-cow, and a cash-cow it'll be as long as people don't get decent contracts from the pubcos.


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## stuff_it (Oct 6, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I know, and I hate walking past there smoking. I feel guilty knowing it's full of medical staff and they're tsking tsking as you walk past, until you realise why they're all sitting outside


Really? Medical staff are notorious smokers.


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## ViolentPanda (Oct 6, 2011)

stuff_it said:


> Really? Medical staff are notorious smokers.



And boozers and other "bad" things.
My favourite bit of medical hypocrisy was my GP telling me to give up coffee while he sucked down an espresso.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 6, 2011)

stuff_it said:


> Really? Medical staff are notorious smokers.



I know, but I still feel guilty walking past them




ViolentPanda said:


> And boozers and other "bad" things.
> My favourite bit of medical hypocrisy was my GP telling me to give up coffee while he sucked down an espresso.



I remember when himself was emergency admitted with vascular disease, I left him in A&E whilst I went out for a smoke.  A short while later a vascular consultant came out and lit up.  When he saw me, he temporarily froze in embarrassment


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## ringo (Oct 7, 2011)

slowjoe said:


> And I think Mark should realise that no matter how real and awful his grievance, his histrionics do come across as self-pitying and excessive.



+1

I was having a drink with a couple of mates on Wednesday who, like me, live within a stones throw of the Sun & Doves. Turns out all three of us gave up on the place in the last few years due to a combination of inedible/burnt/uncooked food, shit service and rude staff/management. All of the food complaints elicited 'couldn't give a toss' responses from the staff or whoever it was in charge of the place at the time.

The worst I witnessed was a third friend who took a miserly portioned plate of poorly cooked sausage & mash back to the female boss, suggesting that for the 8 or 9 quid charged an adult portion and a properly cooked dinner is the least which might be expected. He was dismissed out of hand and told in no uncertain hands that she didn't care and wasn't going to do anything about it.

Hopefully we'll get a decent local on a doorstep when it reopens this time.


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## mark dodds (Oct 7, 2011)

Many thanks to you anonymous undressed cheeses. Will respond more fully in time.


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## George & Bill (Oct 8, 2011)

To be honest, with an initial response like that, I wouldn't bother continuing. You seem to have deemed the substantial sympathy and support found here worth engaging with, despite its anonymous nature, so if you can't gracefully take the measured criticism that comes with it - even when it's prefaced with words of kindness - then I think I won't be alone in feeling that you can get stuffed.


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## Gramsci (Oct 8, 2011)

mark dodds said:


> Many thanks to you anonymous undressed cheeses. Will respond more fully in time.



Urban75 was set up so people can use an online identity. This is clear from looking at the boards.


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## ringo (Oct 8, 2011)

mark dodds said:


> Many thanks to you anonymous undressed cheeses. Will respond more fully in time.



All of us spoke directly and in person to whoever was in charge of the pub at the time about the various issues and met rudeness and a 'couldn't give a shit' attitude. That was your opportunity to put it right, why would anyone be interested in your response now?

If I was your landlord I imagine I'd have doubled your rent to get rid of you too.


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## Mrs Magpie (Oct 8, 2011)

Gramsci said:


> Urban75 was set up so people can use an online identity. This is clear from looking at the boards.


This. There's a lot more to U75 than discussions about pubs including people sharing some very raw and personal stuff.


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## mark dodds (Oct 8, 2011)

I posted initially because a conversation was started here by others speculating about 'my' pub's closure which could benefit from some informed response. Far from seeking sympathy my hope is to inform as many people as possible about what is happening to pubs all over the UK - using the Sun and Doves' as example seems to make sense as it's the direct result of widespread abuse of the beer tie by one pubco whose behaviour is identical to other pubco's whose sole aim is to asset strip the national pub estate without any form of direct investment in the bricks and mortar. Quite a lot of pubs have been closing and it's not all cheap booze from supermarkets, the smoking ban, beer duty and changing consumer habits. A lot of it is because so many tied pubs do not make enough profit to be able to reinvest in the business - because the rent and beer prices imposed by the pubco's are so high.

slowjoe; there have been no intentional histrionics on my part. It has been a tough time for a long time but I don't feel especially hard done by - my experience is similar to that of thousands of other tied tenants. The experience of many years of tenure and two seemingly irrationally aggressive rent reviews led to my learning more about the tied system than many other tied publicans just because I managed to stay in business longer than most because the pub was busier than most I had to endure it for longer. These experiences of the tie's abuse to a pub business led me to being outraged by the lie of being 'partnership' with a tied pubco and drove me to setting up the Fair Pint Campaign with other tied pubco tenants who were financially struggling and similarly disaffected by their experiences of pubco's.

After ten years the length of this involvement with a struggling business certainly led to my finding day to day business at the pub grindingly difficult to be engaged and positive about, I struggled with depression for a long time and was suicidal for a period. Going into work was not easy... I'm NOT seeking sympathy - just recounting what happened. From 2006, because there was no profit, I was unable to draw income directly from the business. That sort of thing doesn't make you feel very good as an employer really but I know many tied pub tenants in the same situation. The Sun and Doves was on the market for three years after the rent review began because the only way I could have paid the back rent bill when the inevitable rise hit was from the proceeds of a sale - but once the rent review went a year past deadline there was little point in selling because all proceeds would have been swallowed by back rent and trade debt and left me bankrupt anyway. By that point all I could do was either hand the keys back, walk away and go bankrupt, or plough on determinedly with arguments for why the rent should NOT increase and hope that Arbitration or High Court would agree with my rational position about the business's ability to pay against the flimsy, groundless, but habitually accepted arguments presented by the pubco. Essentially the pubco won in the end but the arguments used were the basis of the Fair Pint Campaign's position which has since been adopted into recommendations for reform of the pub sector by Select Committee. Not a bad result overall really.

So slowjoe undressed worked for me and was met with indifferent treatment by his employer. My apologies slowjoe. The point you make about the impact of the beer tie on a business's ability to pay its staff is a good one - although I didn't bring it up above I did make this point as part of my written evidence to government Select Committee hearings: the direct impact of my 2000 rent review, where rent increased 68% was that we had to cease table service and go to 'order from the bar' and make several staff redundant. Until that point we paid well over the minimum wage but as fixed costs increased the business's ability to pay ahead of the minimum wage waned as profit became non existent through a combination of higher beer supply prices and a huge simultaneous increase in rent and business rates. That being said I know that many people who worked at The Sun and Doves had a different experience to yours slowjoe but since you bring it up I have no doubt that I was distracted and uninterested, I'm sure for a long time. Sorry. Longer serving staff earned more and general staff retention was always consistently well ahead of industry average. When the pub shut, of eleven people we had three staff who worked seven or more years and several others who'd been there for three.

While ringo has had loads of consistently awful experiences along with all his friends who repeatedly were served shit food by shit people who treated him and his mates 'like shit' - well ringo - shit happens - and there were undoubtedly ups and downs over the years. Sorry the pub was not as perfect as you'd expect. But while you went through all that shit there were many more people who had consistently good experiences who were regular and frequent customers. So thanks ringo for inviting an opportunity to respond to your sensitive and insightful overview. Perhaps you will have the opportunity to become a landlord for someone someday. Given your grasp of the property situation you might like to take some hints from the tied pubco handbook.


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## ringo (Oct 8, 2011)

You worked in the service industry. You provided a shit service. You've responded to criticism with insults and sarcasm. Again.


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## Shippou-Sensei (Oct 9, 2011)

i can imagine your  very raw  about the whole thing  and  you really  believed in your  pub  so   these  rough  comments   will undeniably  hurt   but   (mostly) they are just honest comments  about their  experiences.

yeah shit happens  but  try not to be shitty  to the people  that felt shat on  because frankly that would just be shit


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## Winot (Oct 9, 2011)

My sympathies to Mark, but this thread *is* getting a bit Rime of the Ancient Mariner.


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## Mrs Magpie (Oct 9, 2011)

I think the Ancient Mariner was a tad more cheery.


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## Gramsci (Oct 9, 2011)

I have some sympathy for Mark. Rent hikes have been going on in Brixton covered markets as has been discussed here. Also the use of assets to make a short term profit for directors of companies, to the detriment of the long term development of a business, has been happening in other industries.

What I am not comfortable with is the way that those on the shopfloor always lose out - with reduced pay or hours. Employers often say they would like to pay more but its not there fault they cannot. Probably why the minimum wage was brought in. If it was up to business it would never happen.


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## LoopZilla (Oct 10, 2011)

CQC for all communities!


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## George & Bill (Oct 10, 2011)

?


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## Laughing Toad (Oct 10, 2011)

slowjoe said:


> ?


Care Quality Commission. LoopZilla thinks that there is a problem with pubs, and that the solution is for them to be regulated by the people who inspect old people's homes. I'm all for it personally. All music written after 1950 would be banned, all available food would be liquidised, and everyone would have to be in their bed by 9pm. Brilliant.


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## mark dodds (Feb 8, 2012)

Thanks all for the words of encouragement. I'm researching for the People's Pub Partnership now, a worker and consumer owned pub company which will be, at least in part, crowd funded - more of that soon I hope. 

I heard, from the owner of the BunHouse (now closed with planning application in for shop) in Peckham that S&N are touting around a new lease at The Sun and Doves, with a full tie for beer wines and spirits, for £48K rent. Don't know what they plan to do about the fact that it needs £300K spending on it to get it fit for purpose as a  business fit for contemporary expectations. WOULD anyone here like to negotiate a 'deal' with S&N to find out what they are looking at in detail? The data could be sent to Business Innovation and Skills department, CAMRA and IPPR - they are all interested in these things.

I can't do it - I don't think S&N will talk to me :>)


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## mark dodds (Mar 12, 2012)

sorry, managed to post this twice by mistake and don't seem able to delete either post


----------



## mark dodds (Mar 12, 2012)

These forums are good.

Aren't they?

The Sun and Doves was squatted recently.

A lot has been happening. I came across this charming video about what pubs really mean to their communities earlier yesterday and have spent the best part of the last five hours spreading it as far as I can. If you like it, please spread it further. Such talent as Jamie Wright, the film maker, deserves recognition:


----------



## mark dodds (Mar 12, 2012)

mark dodds said:


> Thanks all for the words of encouragement. I'm researching for the People's Pub Partnership now, a worker and consumer owned pub company which will be, at least in part, crowd funded - more of that soon I hope.
> 
> www.peoplespubpartnership.org


----------



## editor (Mar 12, 2012)

Good luck with this Mark!


----------



## Crispy (Mar 12, 2012)

Good stuff


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 12, 2012)

Hope something comes of it.  The Sun and Doves looks like a lonely eyesore sitting there boarded up like that


----------



## BoxRoom (Mar 12, 2012)

Aye, best of luck!

I miss the S&D


----------



## shakespearegirl (Mar 12, 2012)

Best of luck with this.


----------



## editor (Mar 12, 2012)

What is the Sun and Doves now, btw?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 12, 2012)

editor said:


> What is the Sun and Doves now, btw?


 
It's sitting there empty and boarded up


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 12, 2012)




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## editor (Mar 12, 2012)

Shit. I didn't realise that it was still closed. What a fucking waste.

(Is that your pic by the way?)


----------



## invisibleplanet (Mar 12, 2012)

Here's a happy pub story to cheer you all up 
It's about the Butcher's Arms in Crosby Ravensworth, Cumbria
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2011/jul/05/cumbrian-village-big-society-vanguard
http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2011/aug/19/pub-saved-community-spirit-reopens


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 12, 2012)

editor said:


> Shit. I didn't realise that it was still closed. What a fucking waste.
> 
> (Is that your pic by the way?)


 
Yeah, took it last year when it had just closed.  Bit dark as despite the blue sky, it must have been dark on the other side of the road or something - you know me and photography 

Anyway, where are all the new residents of those ugly new apartments going to drink?  Have you seen them yet Editor?  The yellowness is a bit much.  The whole look of them is a bit much.  Hate them

Surprised you've not taken any photos yet, but here's something for you to look at.  £26k minimum income to buy a 1-bedroom flat.  Damn, I so wanted to live in a disgusting looking apartment 








http://www.findaproperty.com/displaydevelopment.aspx?edid=00&salerent=0&pid=8969093


----------



## prunus (Mar 12, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Yeah, took it last year when it had just closed. Bit dark as despite the blue sky, it must have been dark on the other side of the road or something - you know me and photography
> 
> Anyway, where are all the new residents of those ugly new apartments going to drink? Have you seen them yet Editor? The yellowness is a bit much. The whole look of them is a bit much. Hate them
> 
> ...


 
And unless I'm very much mistaken that's not even a real pic, it's an 'artist's impression'.  They're even uglier in real life.  The perspex-a-like balconies are an almost supernaturally hideous shade of putrescent greeny/yellow.  Plus those trees and hedges don't exist.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 12, 2012)

prunus said:


> And unless I'm very much mistaken that's not even a real pic, it's an 'artist's impression'. They're even uglier in real life. The perspex-a-like balconies are an almost supernaturally hideous shade of putrescent greeny/yellow. Plus those trees and hedges don't exist.


 
I know. I pass it regularly, and initially when those balconies went up, I thought that was some film covering on the glass to protect it until the job was finished, but then I gradually realised that no, it was indeed going to be yellow.

Wonder where they got the names for the buildings from: Printworks, Embassy?

PS:  There actually is a bit of greenery/landscaping going on between and behind the buildings, but I've not had a good look yet.  May have a look next Friday


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## editor (Mar 12, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Surprised you've not taken any photos yet, but here's something for you to look at. £26k minimum income to buy a 1-bedroom flat. Damn, I so wanted to live in a disgusting looking apartment
> 
> http://www.findaproperty.com/displaydevelopment.aspx?edid=00&salerent=0&pid=8969093


I took pictures of the thing being built: 











http://www.urban75.org/brixton/features/coldharbour-lane-loughborough-junction-camberwell.html


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 12, 2012)

editor said:


> I took pictures of the thing being built:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Nearly finished now.  You need to get up there and update a bit


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Mar 12, 2012)

I understand from a local of the Sun + Doves that there are moves to attempt to reopen the pub....anyone else heard about this?


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## LoopZilla (Mar 13, 2012)

So the squatters will be leaving soon, then?


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## mark dodds (Apr 20, 2012)

LoopZilla said:


> So the squatters will be leaving soon, then?


 
Gordon: The Sun and Doves was definitely squatted. How long this will remain the position I don't know. At least it's given the freeholder, Scottish & Newcastle Pub Company something to chew on, apart from their own incompetence that is, for a change. I've left messages with the S&NPC area manager to find out more but he never responds.

The grapevine is that Antic, they of the Tiger on Camberwell Green, formerly Silver Buckle, and of about 30 other pubs in south London, are talking to S&NPC about taking on a lease.


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## mark dodds (Apr 20, 2012)

Brixton Hatter said:


> I understand from a local of the Sun + Doves that there are moves to attempt to reopen the pub....anyone else heard about this?


 
The Sun and Doves HAS been squatted. How long this will remain the position I don't know. At least it's given the freeholder, Scottish & Newcastle Pub Company something to chew on, apart from their own incompetence that is, for a change. I've left messages with the S&NPC area manager to find out more but he never responds.

The grapevine is that Antic, they of the Tiger on Camberwell Green, formerly Silver Buckle, and of about 30 other pubs in south London, are talking to S&NPC about taking on a lease.​


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## Helen CF (Apr 20, 2012)

_Antic, they of the Tiger on Camberwell Green, formerly Silver Buckle, and of about 30 other pubs in south London, are talking to S&NPC about taking on a lease._
Oh what a shitter - the Tiger is so bland and not a jot on the old S&D. Better than an empty building I guess but. Blah. I heard rumours it was going to be a community owned pub (crowdfunded or some such) but I guess that was too good to be true...


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## neartohear (Apr 20, 2012)

With The Brixton Beer Company being developed, some kind of community owned co-operative pub would be the dream!


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## mark dodds (Apr 20, 2012)

neartohear said:


> With The Brixton Beer Company being developed, some kind of community owned co-operative pub would be the dream!


Interesting, I'd not heard of the Brixton Beer Company, will look up - do you have info? Antic are doing a brewery in Camberwell as it happens.

Here's something of potential interest to readers of Urban 75:

Next Thursday on The Guardian Social Enterprise website
*https://socialenterprise.guardian.c...terprise-network/2012/apr/04/cooperative-pubs

To be on the panel and to take part, you have to register as a member of the Guardian social enterprise network, and log in. Follow link below to register.

https://socialenterprise.guardian.co.uk/en/accounts/join

check out: www.peoplespubpartnership.org*


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## neartohear (Apr 20, 2012)

The Brixton Beer Company is a recent initiative by City Farmers whereby local residents grow hops to harvest and hand to local micro breweries to brew beer from:
http://city-farmers.co.uk/?p=200 

Interesting links. Thanks. I'll be paying attention to that panel debate.
Do you think there's any realistic possibilty that the Sun & Doves could be a community run pub?


----------



## Helen CF (Apr 20, 2012)

I'm Brixton Beer  We're currently just patchwork growing hops in community or private gardens and working with the brewer at the Florence to make some beer, but we have larger plans for the future for a truly Brixton Beer. We have links with Transition networks.


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## stevebradley (Apr 22, 2012)

Helen CF said:


> I'm Brixton Beer  We're currently just patchwork growing hops in community or private gardens and working with the brewer at the Florence to make some beer, but we have larger plans for the future for a truly Brixton Beer. We have links with Transition networks.


 
Have you tried growing any at the community Food Farm on Cowley Estate on Brixton Rd ? PM me your email if you want an introduction to them, as the grow various things there and may be up for doing hops. They did wheat for use in locally-made bread a year or so back.


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## mark dodds (Apr 23, 2012)

@neartohear
Thanks for that link too: Brixton Beer Company should be where it's at - a great initiative. It would be great to be a wholesale customer!

There's no chance of The Sun and Doves being a community pub. It's what I was trying to make it for a decade. S&N are highly unlikely to sell - it's potentially too profitable for them. The grapevine has it that Antic are taking it on. If so they're the best option short of it being owned by the community - but still a long way short of what it could be.

The Ivy House in Nunhead is, possibly, a different matter though. See East Dulwich Forum here: http://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/forum/read.php?30,873197

The thread explains the situation well. And there's a survey worth looking at.

It's yet another example of tied pubco idiocy having starved a place for decades making failure a self fulfilling prophecy. Locals have got together and are acting impressively quickly. They're testing the water to see if there's a taste among the people - us, if you like - to buy the place and turn it round. If the community can snatch it from what looks like developer's hands and refurbish it appropriate to its surroundings and its audience that pub has a LOT of potential if well stocked and managed.

Could be exciting.


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## Helen CF (Apr 23, 2012)

stevebradley said:


> Have you tried growing any at the community Food Farm on Cowley Estate on Brixton Rd ? PM me your email if you want an introduction to them, as the grow various things there and may be up for doing hops. They did wheat for use in locally-made bread a year or so back.


 
Haha yeah, Drew is growing five of our hop plants, some at Cowley, some at his other site, some at home. We've done a few projects with Cowley, they are a great space. Andy, the man behind the wheat (http://brockwell-bake.org.uk), gave us some great advice when we were first starting up.

I'd be all over a community shares pub and have filled in the survey. Brixton Beer is a community project and we'd love to help in any way we can!

PS there's a free visit from Brixton to a kentish hop farm this friday with some brewers and some growers: http://city-farmers.co.uk/?p=310 email me helen [at] city-farmers.co.uk if you fancy it.


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## mark dodds (Oct 20, 2012)

Sorry it's been a long time - been distracted. The Sun and Doves _COULD_ have been a community pub but it won't be.

On Saturday 10/11/12 We the people who ran the Sun and Doves for 16 years are having a party at The Recreation Ground (which is a pub by the way) at 65 Camberwell Church Street. From 8pm til late. Music and stuff will be on. It's a pay bar but all welcome - to celebrate the one year anniversary since we were evicted from the pub.

I'm hoping to be able to make a definitive announcement at the party about the set up of the People's Pub Partnership a cooperative and worker owned pub company which will work by putting people before profit by putting pubs at the heart of the community: It's an uncompromising low environmental impact; crowd-funded; craft brewing; local supply chain REVOLUTION in the pub industry (it's going to have CAMRA's backing and that of a whole load of other community and fair minded organisations and individuals but it takes time to bring them all together!). We'll see.

Meantime You can follow People's Pub Partnerhips on facebook http://www.facebook.com/ThePeoplesPubPartnership?ref=hl
Or 
Twitter: https://twitter.com/PeoplesPubPtshp #thebeertiekillspubs

IN the meantime here is a little movie produced by CAMRA: Why Pubs Are Closing All Over Britain:


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## mark dodds (Oct 20, 2012)

Sorry double post


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## SLK (Oct 20, 2012)

Wow. I missed this thread. I don't want to rake up anything, but have my say.
However, I watched all England games that I could and the World Cup Final in the Sun and Doves. I had money on the World Cup Final. I can't remember the circumstances, but the garden was packed and there was an extra TV.
My daughter was born on 2nd July 2012. She was induced because we knew she had a condition that meant a 40% chance of survival. She was born at Kings and we were lucky enough to be able to stay at Ronald MacDonald House for the time that she was in hospital. Hence my watching games in the pub sober.
The food really was shit (three times I ate it; I was always sober because I was always wary I would get called to my daughter).
I preferred the pub near the railway when my friends came to visit my daughter in intensive care - we always went for a drink there, but that didn't have such a good TV for the football.
If Mark was the owner, I really disliked him, but given his story, I understand why he was like he was then.
That pub not being a pub is wrong.


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## Brixton Hatter (Oct 24, 2012)

As I mentioned on another thread, it looks like work has started on The Sun of Camberwell (the former Sun & Doves on Coldharbour Lane) because the contents of the gutted pub have appeared on the pavement outside (not sure how recently it was.) A local walking her dog spoke to me as I was taking photos and expressed surprise and delight that the pub was going to reopen.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 24, 2012)

Brixton Hatter said:


> As I mentioned on another thread, it looks like work has started on The Sun of Camberwell (the former Sun & Doves on Coldharbour Lane) because the contents of the gutted pub have appeared on the pavement outside (not sure how recently it was.) A local walking her dog spoke to me as I was taking photos and expressed surprise and delight that the pub was going to reopen.


 
Been at least 3 weeks ago as I asked the builders inside what was happening on 4 October


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## Brixton Hatter (Oct 24, 2012)

mark dodds said:


> Sorry it's been a long time - been distracted. The Sun and Doves _COULD_ have been a community pub but it won't be.
> 
> On Saturday 10/11/12 We the people who ran the Sun and Doves for 16 years are having a party at The Recreation Ground (which is a pub by the way) at 65 Camberwell Church Street. From 8pm til late. Music and stuff will be on. It's a pay bar but all welcome - to celebrate the one year anniversary since we were evicted from the pub.
> 
> ...



Thanks for posting the film Mark - interesting. I knew about the beer tie but not how bad it was - £128 for an 11 gallon keg of beer which would normally be £63 on the open market!  Fucking scandalous.

What's your opinion of the Antic pubco, which I believe is taking over the Sun & Doves?


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## George & Bill (Oct 24, 2012)

Brixton Hatter said:


> Thanks for posting the film Mark - interesting. I knew about the beer tie but not how bad it was - £128 for an 11 gallon keg of beer which would normally be £63 on the open market!  Fucking scandalous.
> 
> What's your opinion of the Antic pubco, which I believe is taking over the Sun & Doves?



I know you didn't ask for my view, but to my knowledge Antic are a totally different type of operation to Scottish & Newcaste/Enterprise Inns/Punch Taverns etc, the latter of which are essentially landlords to tennant publicans - Antic are more akin to JD Weatherspoon (albeit a bit more upmarket), in that they manage their own pubs - so the beer tie, for example, doesn't come into it. Of course this also means each pub is much less individual (however many retro nick-nacks they install) than might be the case if an independent management team rented a premises from a traditional pubco.


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## wemakeyousoundb (Oct 26, 2012)

slowjoe said:


> I know you didn't ask for my view, but to my knowledge Antic are a totally different type of operation to Scottish & Newcaste/Enterprise Inns/Punch Taverns etc, the latter of which are essentially landlords to tennant publicans - Antic are more akin to JD Weatherspoon (albeit a bit more upmarket), in that they manage their own pubs - so the beer tie, for example, doesn't come into it. Of course this also means each pub is much less individual (however many retro nick-nacks they install) than might be the case if an independent management team rented a premises from a traditional pubco.


yep, antic owns the Balham Bowls Club which was great when I last went there a couple of years ago, I guess they actually got the antiques with it, and it had 2 snooker tables for those who like that stuff but you had to join the snooker club; last I heard they did quite a lot of changes (or at least the manageress did, but she recently left) probably the only antic pub I ever enjoyed.


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## Rushy (Oct 26, 2012)

wemakeyousoundb said:


> yep, antic owns the Balham Bowls Club which was great when I last went there a couple of years ago, I guess they actually got the antiques with it, and it had 2 snooker tables for those who like that stuff but you had to join the snooker club; last I heard they did quite a lot of changes (or at least the manageress did, but she recently left) probably the only antic pub I ever enjoyed.


I don't venture down that way often but that's a great pub.
I think the freehold was owned by the development co and it was leased back to Antic (both companies owned by same guy). Or something like that. The freehold was being dealt with by the receivers when the dev co went bust. Not sure what happened in the end.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Nov 13, 2012)

Brixton Hatter said:


> As I mentioned on another thread, it looks like work has started on The Sun of Camberwell (the former Sun & Doves on Coldharbour Lane) because the contents of the gutted pub have appeared on the pavement outside (not sure how recently it was.) A local walking her dog spoke to me as I was taking photos and expressed surprise and delight that the pub was going to reopen.


 
Went past today


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## Brixton Hatter (Nov 13, 2012)

cheers for the photo 

Yeah I noticed the window dressing going up a week or so ago - looks _slightly_ better I guess!

I'm gonna have those pallets for my fire tomorrow.....


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Nov 13, 2012)

Brixton Hatter said:


> cheers for the photo
> 
> Yeah I noticed the window dressing going up a week or so ago - looks _slightly_ better I guess!
> 
> I'm gonna have those pallets for my fire tomorrow.....


 

I was eyeing up those pallets for my garden but decided I couldn't be arsed dragging them back to Brixton, so you can have 'em


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## BoxRoom (Nov 22, 2012)

Antic reckon it's on track for 29th Nov. Optimism abounds! Place still looks like a bomsytit, they're going to have to really get a shift on!
Hoping to have a good local again at last


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## Crispy (Nov 22, 2012)

BoxRoom said:


> bomsytit


I know it's a typo, but I like this word


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## BoxRoom (Nov 22, 2012)

Crispy said:


> I know it's a typo, but I like this word


I like saying it, it makes me laugh


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Nov 22, 2012)

BoxRoom said:


> Antic reckon it's on track for 29th Nov. Optimism abounds! Place still looks like a bomsytit, they're going to have to really get a shift on!
> Hoping to have a good local again at last


 
Went past yesterday.  Outside's not been touched (apart from scraping paint off).  Inside is looking like it's getting somewhere

Will try to remember to take a photo today


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## Brixton Hatter (Nov 22, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Went past yesterday. Outside's not been touched (apart from scraping paint off). Inside is looking like it's getting somewhere
> 
> Will try to remember to take a photo today


I cycled past on my way home earlier...doors were open, dust was pouring out, the inside looked totally wrecked. They have a lot of work to do in a week....


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Nov 22, 2012)

Brixton Hatter said:


> I cycled past on my way home earlier...doors were open, dust was pouring out, the inside looked totally wrecked. They have a lot of work to do in a week....


 
Yep, looked like a duststorm when I went past just after 2.00pm.  However, when I saw them packing up last night, there were at *least *10 guys in there, so considering how it looks at the moment, reckon they're going to have to really get stuck in.



and just in case anyone's looking for a job



I notice there's still some pallets there Crispy


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Nov 22, 2012)

CV's


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## Elgar (Nov 23, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> CV's


Think of it like a Stonewall logo, only instead they're demonstrating their lack of discrimination against functionally illiterate people.


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## Greebo (Nov 23, 2012)

Elgar said:


> Think of it like a Stonewall logo, only instead they're demonstrating their lack of discrimination against functionally illiterate people.


Including fans of the greengrocers' apostrophe.


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## Yelkcub (Nov 23, 2012)

BoxRoom said:


> Antic reckon it's on track for 29th Nov. Optimism abounds! Place still looks like a bomsytit, they're going to have to really get a shift on!
> Hoping to have a good local again at last


 
Their new place near me opening 2 months late and two months on it still has loads of work not finished....


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## BoxRoom (Nov 23, 2012)

Yelkcub said:


> Their new place near me opening 2 months late and two months on it still has loads of work not finished....


Yikes. Optimism levels for Sun are falling!


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## Yelkcub (Nov 23, 2012)

BoxRoom said:


> Yikes. Optimism levels for Sun are falling!


 
But the Sunday Roast and the service is good. The seem to have a good selection of beers but as a fizzy-pop-lager-drinking-philistine, I'm not able to comment on taste.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Nov 23, 2012)

BoxRoom said:


> Yikes. Optimism levels for Sun are falling!


 
It's not looking any different outside today.

Did notice what looked like a bar inside though (dark wood), so that's a start.  Not at all confident it'll be open this month though


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## cuppa tee (Nov 23, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> It's not looking any different outside today.
> 
> Did notice what looked like a bar inside though (dark wood), so that's a start.  Not at all confident it'll be open this month though


I was by there today as well, it looked like they were still stripPing out the interior, they'll need to get a move on or they 'll miss out on the lucre from the medics Christmas piss ups.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Nov 23, 2012)

cuppa tee said:


> I was by there today as well, it looked like they were still stripPing out the interior, they'll need to get a move on or they 'll miss out on the lucre from the medics Christmas piss ups.


 
Wonder where all the staff from KCH have been going since it shut?


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## cuppa tee (Nov 23, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Wonder where all the staff from KCH have been going since it shut?


Kent ?


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Nov 23, 2012)

cuppa tee said:


> Kent ?


 


There's plenty that live local.  I was talking to a nurse yesterday and she lived in Brixton


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## cuppa tee (Nov 23, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> There's plenty that live local.  I was talking to a nurse yesterday and she lived in Brixton



I was being flippant sort of but I once spoke to a doctor who was coming to work at KCH from abroad and was surprised to find that they'd been advised they'd get much nicer accommodation for their money in the suburbs.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Nov 23, 2012)

cuppa tee said:


> I was being flippant sort of but I once spoke to a doctor who was coming to work at KCH from abroad and was surprised to find that they'd been advised they'd get much nicer accommodation for their money in the suburbs.


 
ah, I see


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## BoxRoom (Nov 24, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> It's not looking any different outside today.
> 
> Did notice what looked like a bar inside though (dark wood), so that's a start. Not at all confident it'll be open this month though


It's not looking likely is it! Unless they pull some serious over-nighters or something. 
I keep meaning to have a good nosey peer through the windows. Might do that tomorrow on the way to get pork bellies for our dinner.
Bloody hell do I ever love pork bellies... 
Still, reckon they might get it done before Christmas. Hopefully they'll have an opening party type thing with free booze! I like free booze almost as much as I like pork bellies.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Nov 24, 2012)

BoxRoom said:


> It's not looking likely is it! Unless they pull some serious over-nighters or something.
> I keep meaning to have a good nosey peer through the windows. Might do that tomorrow on the way to get pork bellies for our dinner.
> Bloody hell do I ever love pork bellies...
> Still, reckon they might get it done before Christmas. Hopefully they'll have an opening party type thing with free booze! I like free booze almost as much as I like pork bellies.


 
I've already peered throuh but it's always full of blokes.  They must think I'm a perv


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## BoxRoom (Nov 24, 2012)

Mrs BoxRoom just said "Oh, I was going to tell you I went by there and they've done a _lot_ of work, looks like a real place at last. But then I realised it was a dream I had."


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## prunus (Nov 30, 2012)

Having just been past the big "opening 30th November" posters are still there. 

I think they must be running on the Julian calendar.


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## BoxRoom (Nov 30, 2012)

Apparently they're on track for 6pm tonight.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Nov 30, 2012)

Can someone take a photo please


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## BoxRoom (Nov 30, 2012)

Here's one I took last night, bit fuzzy... Shows the bar is in place at least!
Will take snaps tonight (if I make it, seems to be a bit of a flu outbreak in the house).


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Nov 30, 2012)

BoxRoom said:


> View attachment 25579
> Here's one I took last night, bit fuzzy... Shows the bar is in place at least!
> Will take snaps tonight (if I make it, seems to be a bit of a flu outbreak in the house).


 
The bar was in place last week

Great picture *cough cough*


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## BoxRoom (Nov 30, 2012)

Popped in for a pint. Nice enough people in there, good atmosphere and that.
Builders were still buzzing about. Place needs serious lickings of paints. Was so cold there but I was right by the door, me own fault. It was really dark in there too. It's like they bought a job lot of faulty 60 watt bulbs that only go up to 5.
Felt like a tool sitting there on my own, Mrs BoxRoom is full of that flu and pretty fed up she couldn't go, so I went and got a bottle of plonk to cheer her up.
Will be interested to see what it's like in daylight. Felt a bit too self-conscious to wander around there on my own peering into corners and frowning at furniture from the blitz.
Good to have a nearer pub again though!
I took a few snaps but they are rubbish, worse than the one I posted above I reckon.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Nov 30, 2012)

BoxRoom said:


> Popped in for a pint. Nice enough people in there, good atmosphere and that.
> Builders were still buzzing about. Place needs serious lickings of paints. Was so cold there but I was right by the door, me own fault. It was really dark in there too. It's like they bought a job lot of faulty 60 watt bulbs that only go up to 5.
> Felt like a tool sitting there on my own, Mrs BoxRoom is full of that flu and pretty fed up she couldn't go, so I went and got a bottle of plonk to cheer her up.
> Will be interested to see what it's like in daylight. Felt a bit too self-conscious to wander around there on my own peering into corners and frowning at furniture from the blitz.
> ...


 
Have you tried using a flash on your camera? 

Sounds like they were determined to open this month regardless of whether it was finished


----------



## BoxRoom (Nov 30, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Have you tried using a flash on your camera?
> 
> Sounds like they were determined to open this month regardless of whether it was finished


I did consider using the flash but I didn't want to draw attention to myself because I'm a shy old idiot


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Nov 30, 2012)

BoxRoom said:


> I did consider using the flash but I didn't want to draw attention to myself because I'm a shy old idiot


 
Yeah, I'm a bit like that.  I like to pretend it's a new camera I'm playing with and flash went off accidentally


----------



## cuppa tee (Nov 30, 2012)

pre-appointment whiskies are back  then


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Nov 30, 2012)

cuppa tee said:


> pre-appointment whiskies are back then


 
You can't do that in case you're having a blood test!

Post-appointment drinks though


----------



## cuppa tee (Nov 30, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> You can't do that in case you're having a blood test!
> 
> Post-appointment drinks though





Minnie_the_Minx said:


> You can't do that in case you're having a blood test!
> 
> Post-appointment drinks though


I know the blood test procedure and i doubt they'll be open at 7:30 on a tuesday morning


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## BoxRoom (Nov 30, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Yeah, I'm a bit like that. I like to pretend it's a new camera I'm playing with and flash went off accidentally


I like that idea! But knowing me I'd probably follow it up with a loud "Whoops!" making everyone look at me for longer


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Nov 30, 2012)

cuppa tee said:


> I know the blood test procedure and i doubt they'll be open at 7:30 on a tuesday morning


 
The pub or the blood testing room?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Nov 30, 2012)

BoxRoom said:


> I like that idea! But knowing me I'd probably follow it up with a loud "Whoops!" making everyone look at me for longer


 
That's when you suddenly realise there's a really interesting photo on your camera that needs scrutinising


----------



## cuppa tee (Nov 30, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> The pub or the blood testing room?


Neither but the waiting room for blood tests is


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Nov 30, 2012)

cuppa tee said:


> Neither but to be the waiting room for blood tests is


 
Didn't understand that sentenceat all


----------



## cuppa tee (Nov 30, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Didn't understand that sentenceat all


amended


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Nov 30, 2012)

cuppa tee said:


> amended


 
oh right, you'll be having whiskey at 7.30am for a 9.00am appointment


----------



## cuppa tee (Nov 30, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> oh right, you'll be having whiskey at 7.30am for a 9.00am appointment


Not for a blood test, the whisky is a ritual I keep for the consultant, post appointment drinks are in the Hermits as a rule


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Nov 30, 2012)

cuppa tee said:


> Not for a blood test, the whisky is a ritual I keep for the consultant, post appointment drinks are in the Hermits as a rule


 
I see


----------



## cuppa tee (Nov 30, 2012)




----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Nov 30, 2012)

cuppa tee said:


>


 
Yes yes, I see you're not having a blood test, and I understand you're seeing a consultant so I'm guessing it's for your nerves


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## cuppa tee (Nov 30, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Yes yes, I see you're not having a blood test, and I understand you're seeing a consultant so I'm guessing it's for your nerves


The whisky is, the appointment isnt  ....... I may partake of a pint in the hermits afterwards  if so inclined


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Nov 30, 2012)

Right


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## BoxRoom (Nov 30, 2012)

cuppa tee said:


> The whisky is, the appointment isnt  ....... I may partake of a pint in the hermits afterwards if so inclined


Haven't been in the Hermits for donkeys yonks. How is it these days?


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## cuppa tee (Nov 30, 2012)

BoxRoom said:


> Haven't been in the Hermits for donkeys yonks. How is it these days?


Last time I was in it had improved, I think the hipsters were all down the village


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## BoxRoom (Dec 2, 2012)

Right then. I'm going to nip in there while there's some daylight left, assuming it's actually open again...


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## Brixton Hatter (Dec 5, 2012)

Well it _appears_ to be open, but it looks a complete mess....


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## ringo (Dec 5, 2012)

It was open last night when I took the littlun to Brownies. Very dark in there, could just about make out the bar and one bloke.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Dec 5, 2012)

Blimey, the state of it!

Maybe they're going for the distressed look


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## wemakeyousoundb (Dec 6, 2012)

well if the inside is ready they might as well start selling beer, a quick lick'o'paint will soon enough sort the outside


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## DJWrongspeed (Jan 8, 2013)

As a foot note to this sorry tale Vince Cable decides to step in with pubco / pub adjudication.


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## Crispy (Jan 8, 2013)

Excellent news


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## Rushy (Jan 8, 2013)

> The code will enshrine the fundamental principle that a tied licensee should be no worse off than a free-of-tie-licensee, which will ensure a level playing field.


 
About time.


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## BoxRoom (Jan 9, 2013)

Promising news.


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## Brixton Hatter (Jan 9, 2013)

Went in the "Sun of Camberwell' with Ms Hatter the other week. It's a typical Antic pub. Decor is full of antique stuff and old wooden chairs etc. It's not _bad_, but it totally lacks character and atmosphere. There's an open fire which is quite good. Beers reasonably expensive. We wanted some food but weren't inspired by the menu, so ended up doing a pub crawl which incorporated the Hermit's Cave (which has 9 ciders on tap, when the f*ck did that happen!) 



DJWrongspeed said:


> As a foot note to this sorry tale Vince Cable decides to step in with pubco / pub adjudication.


Yes, this is good news, and it will also be statutory, which means it has legal force behind it, not just a voluntary code of practice. 

However, I think there remains a problem - certainly in London anyway - around the value of pub property. If Pubcos can't use the beer tie to extract additional money from the landlord, they can either put up the rent or simply sell the pub/turn it into flats...


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 9, 2013)

Brixton Hatter said:


> Went in the "Sun of Camberwell' with Ms Hatter the other week. It's a typical Antic pub. Decor is full of antique stuff and old wooden chairs etc. It's not _bad_, but it totally lacks character and atmosphere. There's an open fire which is quite good. Beers reasonably expensive. We wanted some food but weren't inspired by the menu, so ended up doing a pub crawl which incorporated the Hermit's Cave (which has 9 ciders on tap, when the f*ck did that happen!)
> 
> 
> Yes, this is good news, and it will also be statutory, which means it has legal force behind it, not just a voluntary code of practice.
> ...


 
I was going to go in a week ago, but it doesn't open til 5.00pm


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## Crispy (Jan 9, 2013)

They're missing a trick there. The hospital generates all-day business


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## BoxRoom (Jan 9, 2013)

Crispy said:


> They're missing a trick there. The hospital generates all-day business


Totally. I don't understand their reasoning for such a late opening unless it's temporary while they're still fixing the place up.


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## Brixton Hatter (Jan 9, 2013)

Crispy said:


> They're missing a trick there. The hospital generates all-day business


Yep. When I was a regular patient at KCH I used to used to use the half-day-off work for a strategic spot of "lunch" after seeing the doctor


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## Brixton Hatter (Jan 9, 2013)

BoxRoom said:


> Totally. I don't understand their reasoning for such a late opening unless it's temporary while they're still fixing the place up.


And they _are_ still fixing the place up...there's holes in the ceiling, broken plaster work etc etc


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 9, 2013)

Crispy said:


> They're missing a trick there. The hospital generates all-day business


 
Yep, as I mentioned in the other thread, I'm hoping that it's just a temporary Christmas/New Year thing and once they've completed the refurb, it'll be open normal hours.  The Phoenix at Denmark Hill must be well pleased though as they've nabbed a load of the hospital staff


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## cuppa tee (Jan 9, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I was going to go in a week ago, but it doesn't open til 5.00pm


The Tiger down the road doesnt open til 4:00pm weekdays, and the same applies to the Crown and Anchor, one almost wonders if they want to discourage daytime drinkers..............


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 9, 2013)

cuppa tee said:


> The Tiger down the road doesnt open til 4:00pm weekdays, and the same applies to the Crown and Anchor, one almost wonders if they want to discourage daytime drinkers..............


 
You'd think it would occur to them that a lot of hospital staff are shift-workers


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## cuppa tee (Jan 9, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> You'd think it would occur to them that a lot of hospital staff are shift-workers


Agreed, in fact here are many types of shift workers in this 24 hour city, a lot of the new wave of pubs seem to be strangely puritanical in their outlook in fact I saw someone removed from one recently for being visibly drunk albeit in a happy non-threatening way


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 9, 2013)

cuppa tee said:


> Agreed, in fact here are many types of shift workers in this 24 hour city, a lot of the new wave of pubs seem to be strangely puritanical in their outlook in fact I saw someone removed from one recently for being visibly drunk albeit in a happy non-threatening way


 
They obviously don't think shift workers drink or would want an occasional meal in a pub before 5.00pm


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 9, 2013)

Pub Companies Debate live on BBC Parliament now


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## Brixton Hatter (Jan 11, 2013)

cuppa tee said:


> The Tiger down the road doesnt open til 4:00pm weekdays, and the same applies to the Crown and Anchor, one almost wonders if they want to discourage daytime drinkers..............


The Hootahob and the Queen's Head also don't open til 4pm. But I think the reason is they don't think they would get any trade in the day time. They (Antic style pubs) are different types of pub, not really 'locals' pubs as such - many of the people I know who drink in the daytime in places like the Marquis or Beehive wouldn't go anywhere near an Antic pub. Also prices are too high - many people drink at home now instead.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 11, 2013)

Brixton Hatter said:


> The Hootahob and the Queen's Head also don't open til 4pm. But I think the reason is they don't think they would get any trade in the day time. They are different types of pub, not really 'locals' pubs as such - many of the people I know who drink in the daytime in places like the Marquis or Beehive wouldn't go anywhere near an Antic pub. Also prices are too high - many people drink at home now instead.


 
Think the difference with a hospital pub though is that visitors may not be local and may have travelled a fair distance to visit, and might want something other than the shit sandwiches and crap food that KCH sells.   A lot of people may also be visiting for long hours and appreciate somewhere to disappear off for half an hour/hour for a break.


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## Brixton Hatter (Jan 11, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Think the difference with a hospital pub though is that visitors may not be local and may have travelled a fair distance to visit, and might want something other than the shit sandwiches and crap food that KCH sells. A lot of people may also be visiting for long hours and appreciate somewhere to disappear off for half an hour/hour for a break.


Yep.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 11, 2013)

Brixton Hatter said:


> Yep.


 
and the heat in KCH (particularly in Cheyne Wing) can be totally stifling.  People need to cool down with a drink


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## BoxRoom (Jan 13, 2013)

Someone should 'ave a word with them. They're missing out on a few quid there.


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## Badgers (Jan 13, 2013)

Went in there for the first time this week. Really liked it.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 13, 2013)

BoxRoom said:


> Someone should 'ave a word with them. They're missing out on a few quid there.


 
I'm going to ask them their reasoning next time I'm at KCH


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## George & Bill (Jan 13, 2013)

Badgers said:


> Went in there for the first time this week. Really liked it.



I really like some of the textures and materials they've (or possibly the departing Sun & Doves crew) exposed. What I don't like is the surfeit of generic vintage/retro chinz, which could have come from any number of other Antic pubs - there's apparenty been no real effort to look at the space and come up with a concept that's particular to it, rather, they've just gone to their usual dealer or whatever and said 'we've got X square feet, give us what you got'.


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## George & Bill (Jan 13, 2013)

slowjoe said:


> I really like some of the textures and materials they've (or possibly the departing Sun & Doves crew) exposed. What I don't like is the surfeit of generic vintage/retro chinz, which could have come from any number of other Antic pubs - there's apparenty been no real effort to look at the space and come up with a concept that's particular to it, rather, they've just gone to their usual dealer or whatever and said 'we've got X square feet, give us what you got'.



I should point out that this falls into the category of harsh criticism you give to places you really want to like. Of the various fates that might have befallen the S&D, this one isnt really to shabby in the scheme of things.


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## TruXta (Jan 13, 2013)

Same as Badgers, went the first time this week and really liked the space and the real ale, not so big a fan of the furniture. Bonus points for the girl that came up to me and said her friend (right) wanted to know if I was single.  Wasn't expecting the clientele to be so m/c either, guess it gets a lot of trade off the KCH workers.


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## William of Walworth (Jan 13, 2013)

What beers are on offer?


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## Brixton Hatter (Jan 14, 2013)

William of Walworth said:


> What beers are on offer?


IIRC they had Wainwrights (which I had - decent) and two other fairly standard beers - I think there was Sharps' Doom Bar and a 'Winter Warmer' type beer (also Sharps I think.)


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## TruXta (Jan 14, 2013)

They had Deuchars, an XPA and two IPAs, the names of which escape me, plus a couple more taps which I also can't remember, a decent selection of lagers, nothing too adventurous. Ales I tasted were well kept and Badgers enjoyed a few pints of Symonds cider.


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## wemakeyousoundb (Jan 14, 2013)

Brixton Hatter said:


> Went in the "Sun of Camberwell' with Ms Hatter the other week. It's a typical Antic pub. Decor is full of antique stuff and old wooden chairs etc. It's not _bad_, but it totally lacks character and atmosphere. There's an open fire which is quite good. Beers reasonably expensive. We wanted some food but weren't inspired by the menu, so ended up doing a pub crawl which incorporated the Hermit's Cave (which has 9 ciders on tap, when the f*ck did that happen!)
> 
> 
> Yes, this is good news, and it will also be statutory, which means it has legal force behind it, not just a voluntary code of practice.
> ...


they'll probably sell if they can't overtax the beer :/


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 21, 2013)

Wanted to go in Sun and Doves today but got out of KCH earlier than expected and no way was I going to wait around an hour for S&D to open.

Anyway, builders still there and looks like they're concentrating on the outside at the minute


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## mark dodds (Mar 18, 2013)

Well. I've been in there a few times and like it compared to what it would have been if it were a Capital or Geronimo but well known member slowjoe has it spot on - there's so MUCH, so MANY, interior artefact bits and pieces they smother each other. It's like being in a 1940's jumble sale. It feels packed and busy.

The stripped back-ness of the walls and exposed metal beams are not of the outgoing tenant's (me) doing. Someone chose to do that.

Any one heard about the Ivy House Nunhead yet? Just hot off the press:

Great NEWS! Now YOU can buy a bit of The Ivy House Nunhead and make London pub history. Go to 'BUY SHARES' here: http://www.ivyhousenunhead.com/


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