# What is distinctively Welsh about Wales in the 21st Century?



## mr_mark (Nov 11, 2005)

Is it just the accent and language? Apart from these things, does anything differentiate Wales from England, Ireland, Scotland, for example? Sure, it has its own history but how is that reflected in the everyday lives of the people who live here? Is it just another part of the UK?


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## RubberBuccaneer (Nov 11, 2005)

We've got our own government


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## Brockway (Nov 11, 2005)

We're generally shorter.


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## RubberBuccaneer (Nov 11, 2005)

And we're cooler e.g. 'Phonics, Preachers,Tyler


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## Brockway (Nov 11, 2005)

We're more tactile and of a nicer disposition. We're not hung up on having lost an empire. And we're not sexually repressed like those anglo-saxons.


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## Belushi (Nov 11, 2005)

We're more leftwing than the Saes


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## Gentleman Taff (Nov 11, 2005)

mr_mark said:
			
		

> Is it *just* the accent and *language*? Apart from these things, does anything differentiate Wales from England, Ireland, Scotland, for example? *Sure, it has its own history* but how is that reflected in the everyday lives of the people who live here? Is it just another part of the UK?



Well, I know what you're saying (I think...), but I don't think you can gloss over these elements; where else in Britain/UK do you have a truly bilingual indigenous society?  I'm in Cardiff, so it's not really the case here. ('cept in Pontcanna  ), but in the Western and Northern areas, you can (and most people do) conduct your daily life in Welsh.

In terms of history, we have never been a 'nation state' (got fucked over by Big Ed before these were invented really), instead our political organisation dates from the era of smaller, 'princedoms' etc. (more akin to the city state organisation eg it's contemporary, Rome). I think the legacy of this is a world class ability to infight and snipe at each other (look I've just had a pop at another part of the same city!).

This is a good question, and I'll have to get back to this, as there is more to say, but right now, if I don't do the housework, my balls will be removed when my wife returns................which reminds me... the classic Welsh Matriarch.. nowhere else in the UK do the men live in such fear of the women


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## Belushi (Nov 11, 2005)

> which reminds me... the classic Welsh Matriarch.. nowhere else in the UK do the men live in such fear of the women



Dont mess with Mam!


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## RubberBuccaneer (Nov 11, 2005)

I agree with Brockway we've got nicer tackle.


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## Poi E (Nov 11, 2005)

I've noticed that afro carribean and asian people I know who were born and live in England tend to call themselves British, not English. Do people like that if born in Wales call themselves Welsh, or is it just the white Welsh? Just wondering, like...


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## Belushi (Nov 11, 2005)

Poi E said:
			
		

> I've noticed that afro carribean and asian people I know who were born and live in England tend to call themselves British, not English. Do people like that if born in Wales call themselves Welsh, or is it just the white Welsh? Just wondering, like...



IME they usually describe themselves as Welsh.


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## Poi E (Nov 11, 2005)

Interesting. Is the Welsh language compulsory in schools in Wales these days?


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## Belushi (Nov 11, 2005)

Poi E said:
			
		

> Interesting. Is the Welsh language compulsory in schools in Wales these days?



Yes, its a compulsory language in English language schools, and of course there are Welsh language medium schools as well.


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## spacemonkey (Nov 11, 2005)

Poi E said:
			
		

> I've noticed that afro carribean and asian people I know who were born and live in England tend to call themselves British, not English. Do people like that if born in Wales call themselves Welsh, or is it just the white Welsh? Just wondering, like...



Just the same as anyone else mate. An asian friend of mine was born in St Davids hospital the same as me and calls himself Welsh. Another asian friend was born in london but moved here when he was 8 and calls himself English. Whatever nationality you indentify most with i guess.


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## spacemonkey (Nov 11, 2005)

Belushi said:
			
		

> Yes, its a compulsory language in English language schools, and of course there are Welsh language medium schools as well.



You get alot of parents sending their kinds to welsh medium schools, even though they can't/have no desrire at all to speak welsh purely because they tend to be of a much better standard than local comps (at least in cardiff   )


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## Poi E (Nov 11, 2005)

spacemonkey said:
			
		

> Just the same as anyone else mate. An asian friend of mine was born in St Davids hospital the same as me and calls himself Welsh. Another asian friend was born in london but moved here when he was 8 and calls himself English. Whatever nationality you indentify most with i guess.



Yes, must just be a personal thing.


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## neprimerimye (Nov 11, 2005)

Gentleman Taff said:
			
		

> In terms of history, we have never been a 'nation state' (got fucked over by Big Ed before these were invented really), instead our political organisation dates from the era of smaller, 'princedoms' etc. (more akin to the city state organisation eg it's contemporary, Rome). I think the legacy of this is a world class ability to infight and snipe at each other.



A couple of points like.

1/ 'Big Ed' smashed up Gwynedd not Wales. Cardiff for example was in the hands of Anglo-Norman barons from the late 11th century ce.

2/ The Roman Republic was a democracy pretty limited but a democracy nonetheless. The petty Welsh princelings were mere thugs who ruled by force.


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## nwnm (Nov 11, 2005)

"I've noticed that afro carribean and asian people I know who were born and live in England tend to call themselves British, not English. Do people like that if born in Wales call themselves Welsh, or is it just the white Welsh? Just wondering, like..." Interesting peice of useless info - in the '70s a lot of the rastafari in Cardiff used to wear Wales soccer tops. They were red with yellow and green stripes then. I think Haile salase might have been on the subs bench once an all


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## Gentleman Taff (Nov 11, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> A couple of points like.
> 
> 1/ 'Big Ed' smashed up Gwynedd not Wales. Cardiff for example was in the hands of Anglo-Norman barons from the late 11th century ce.
> 
> 2/ The Roman Republic was a democracy pretty limited but a democracy nonetheless. The petty Welsh princelings were mere thugs who ruled by force.



Yes, that's true, I was in a bit of a hurry.  I would rephrase to say 'Big Ed' (I know that's a bit weak as well) was effectively the one who stopped any chance of a nation state forming at a period when they were starting to form throughout Europe. Of course the Normans were very successful in occupying parts of Wales, including Cardiff, but it was Edward who completed the job, so to speak.

Similarly, your point 2, bit rushed, wasn't trying to make a direct comparison between the Welsh Princedoms and Rome, just trying to say that the 'administrative divisions' for want of a better description, were more localised; could just as easily have said Sparta or Athens ie the concept of a 'nation' hadn't really taken root. Think you're a bit harsh on the 'petty Welsh Princelings', mind.

Still, good example of "a world class ability to infight and snipe at each other."


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## emptyhead (Nov 11, 2005)

*emptyhead*




			
				mr_mark said:
			
		

> Is it just the accent and language? Apart from these things, does anything differentiate Wales from England, Ireland, Scotland, for example? Sure, it has its own history but how is that reflected in the everyday lives of the people who live here? Is it just another part of the UK?


Goldie lookin chain


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## *Miss Daisy* (Nov 11, 2005)

we're more laid-back


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## jjuice (Nov 11, 2005)

The sense of humour is different, there is a distinctly Welsh humour. 
See 'Twin Towns' for an example.

And we never stop talking - very good talkers, the Welsh.


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## Hollis (Nov 11, 2005)

I could lecture about this at great length..

But I won't

 

<legs its>


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## chilango (Nov 11, 2005)

lava bread


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## neprimerimye (Nov 11, 2005)

jjuice said:
			
		

> The sense of humour is different, there is a distinctly Welsh humour.
> See 'Twin Towns' for an example.



Shite films are hardly unique to Wales.


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## neprimerimye (Nov 11, 2005)

Gentleman Taff said:
			
		

> Yes, that's true, I was in a bit of a hurry.  I would rephrase to say 'Big Ed' (I know that's a bit weak as well) was effectively the one who stopped any chance of a nation state forming at a period when they were starting to form throughout Europe. Of course the Normans were very successful in occupying parts of Wales, including Cardiff, but it was Edward who completed the job, so to speak.
> 
> Similarly, your point 2, bit rushed, wasn't trying to make a direct comparison between the Welsh Princedoms and Rome, just trying to say that the 'administrative divisions' for want of a better description, were more localised; could just as easily have said Sparta or Athens ie the concept of a 'nation' hadn't really taken root. Think you're a bit harsh on the 'petty Welsh Princelings', mind.
> 
> Still, good example of "a world class ability to infight and snipe at each other."



Sure I've no big problem with what you say. The trouble is that there is a version of 'Welsh history' that portrays the Princes as proto-nationalists when that concept had not as yet appeared. Not only does this posit a exploiting class as central to the history of this country but as the last principality to fall was Gywnedd Welsh history becomes centered on north Wales.

In fact Welsh history in the middle ages is one of the elimiination of one bunch of thigs by another. The 'nationality' of these rival bands of things is immaterial. 

Gotta run or I'll miss me bus like.


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## zog (Nov 11, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Shite films are hardly unique to Wales.




Now thats a bit unfair. TT is almost like a fly on the wall documentry of life in jackland.


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## Karac (Nov 11, 2005)

Rugby
Though just having watched Wales scrape a win against Fiji im not so sure...


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## LilMissHissyFit (Nov 11, 2005)

spacemonkey said:
			
		

> You get alot of parents sending their kinds to welsh medium schools, even though they can't/have no desrire at all to speak welsh purely because they tend to be of a much better standard than local comps (at least in cardiff   )


I dont think thats a bad thing though, its the fault of the education authorities if they cant get their act together with all the state schools. Its the same situation with faith schools in Cardiff- across the board they have a better reputation than the normal state schools.

Its fostering use of the language at the end of the day. For those who want a welsh medium education to get it also encouranges future generations to use it and want their kids to be educated in welsh


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## LilMissHissyFit (Nov 11, 2005)

zog said:
			
		

> Now thats a bit unfair. TT is almost like a fly on the wall documentry of life in jackland.


ahem... jackland???
Ive lived in both Swansea ( all over the place) and for 18 mths Port talbot and I;d say it was FAR more port talbot than anywhere else


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## jjuice (Nov 12, 2005)

Got to agree with LMHF about Twin Towns and Port Talbot, but neprimeryme is full of wool.

Bahhh


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## rednblack (Nov 12, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Gotta run or I'll miss me bus like.



hmm, welsh boke - good knowlege of history


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## neprimerimye (Nov 12, 2005)

Karac said:
			
		

> Rugby(



If Rugby is unique to Wales how come it's named after an English public school?


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## Brockway (Nov 12, 2005)

Well reminded. We're not colonizers and we didn't invent wanky public schools.  

Also, we get naked and cover ourselves in herbs before a major dust-up.


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## mwgdrwg (Nov 12, 2005)

The Eisteddfod, talwrn y beirdd, singing, stuff like that.


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## editor (Nov 12, 2005)

rednblack said:
			
		

> hmm, welsh boke - good knowlege of history


If you're suggesting it's ernie, why not drop him another of your chatty emails and save us the bother of checking the IP addresses?


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## Lock&Light (Nov 12, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> If you're suggesting it's ernie, why not drop him another of your chatty emails and save us the bother of checking the IP addresses?



How long will it take for him to get the message?


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## neprimerimye (Nov 12, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> If you're suggesting it's ernie, why not drop him another of your chatty emails and save us the bother of checking the IP addresses?



Nope Ernie hates my guts.

If he is who I think he is then he's not Welsh either.


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## Brockway (Nov 12, 2005)

Excuse my ignorance but who is Earnie? Only, on some other thread someone accused ME of being Earnie, so who is this person inspiring such paranoia?


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## neprimerimye (Nov 12, 2005)

Brockway said:
			
		

> Excuse my ignorance but who is Earnie? Only, on some other thread someone accused ME of being Earnie, so who is this person inspiring such paranoia?



A sad fantasist whose posts were of an ultra-Stalinist persuasion. He only inspired paranoia among guilty liberals so don't be concerned.


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## editor (Nov 12, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> guilty liberals


Christ, this is tiresome. Can't you get a hobby or something?


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## Karac (Nov 12, 2005)

Brockway or neprimerimye arent Ernie.
Ones a normal person and the others a Stalinist but not of the Ernie variety.


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## neprimerimye (Nov 12, 2005)

Karac said:
			
		

> Brockway or neprimerimye arent Ernie.
> Ones a normal person and the others a Stalinist but not of the Ernie variety.



Brockway is not a Stalinist or do you have evidence to back up this disgusting slur on her/him?


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## Karac (Nov 12, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> If Rugby is unique to Wales how come it's named after an English public school?


Good point
I probably meant an unhealthy obsession with Rugby that isnt shared with anyone else than New Zealand.


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## LilMissHissyFit (Nov 12, 2005)

apart from me


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## editor (Nov 12, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Brockway is not a Stalinist or do you have evidence to back up this disgusting slur on her/him?


You sound depressingly familiar.


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## Karac (Nov 12, 2005)

Hes not Ern Ed
Just some Cardiff Stalinist


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## LilMissHissyFit (Nov 12, 2005)

can we change his tag to 'shit troll'???


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## jannerboyuk (Nov 12, 2005)

Karac said:
			
		

> Hes not Ern Ed
> Just some Cardiff Stalinist


More of an orthodox trotskyist. Ex-Militant i think.
Anyhoo back to the subject. I reckon one distinct aspect to Wales (at least in my experience) is a broader appreciation of performing arts. Not so sneered at to get up on stage for a bit of a song and dance. I remember some macho lads from Maestag showing me their school musical production on video and they were obviously proud of it (the singing stereotype of welshness i suppose). No laddish types where i come from would have done that - lets just say certain aspersions would have been cast on anybody who did. 
Perhaps it's just a Maestag thing.


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## neprimerimye (Nov 13, 2005)

jannerboyuk said:
			
		

> More of an orthodox trotskyist. Ex-Militant i think.



Not an orthodox anything and certainly not ex-RSL.

But back to the thread no one has yet come up with anything that is distinctively Welsh in the 21st century ce.

Could it be there is not a single thing that is distinctively Welsh in the 21st century? The language excepted of course.


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## rhod (Nov 13, 2005)

(end.of.)


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## Karac (Nov 13, 2005)




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## Karac (Nov 13, 2005)




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## Col_Buendia (Nov 13, 2005)

[beard-stroking mode] Trouble is the question ignores history, which is presumably what makes each of us unique in terms of our identity... anything that is "distinctively Welsh" is surely something that is the result of a passage of time, and thus asking about Welsh-ness in 21st Century means you've got a 5yr window (so far) to come up with an answer... Charlotte Church and the Grand Slam hence spring to my mind.

Not that that is necessarily a problem, but I would imagine if you asked people "What does it mean to you to be Welsh", answers would (imo) reflect some sense of difference... difference perhaps in linguistic terms, in geographical terms, in terms of historical experiences, etc etc. Those factors only start to make an appearance when you allow history to be considered, don't they?
[/beard-stroking mode]


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## neprimerimye (Nov 13, 2005)

Col_Buendia said:
			
		

> [beard-stroking mode] Trouble is the question ignores history, which is presumably what makes each of us unique in terms of our identity... anything that is "distinctively Welsh" is surely something that is the result of a passage of time, and thus asking about Welsh-ness in 21st Century means you've got a 5yr window (so far) to come up with an answer... Charlotte Church and the Grand Slam hence spring to my mind.
> 
> Not that that is necessarily a problem, but I would imagine if you asked people "What does it mean to you to be Welsh", answers would (imo) reflect some sense of difference... difference perhaps in linguistic terms, in geographical terms, in terms of historical experiences, etc etc. Those factors only start to make an appearance when you allow history to be considered, don't they?
> [/beard-stroking mode]



Ahhh, the irritating Ms Church and some bizarre sports tournament, as the historically unique attributes of 21st century Wales! I do hope things improve in the next 95 years.

But if we are to factor in history then we are dramatically changing the terms of this exchange. And history means so many different things does it not? To some it will be the history of a Welsh nation that will matter while others will focus on the conflicts between the classes in Wales.

The record of events in each version of history one selects will differ in detail from other countries but the closer we approach the modern era the more striking are the smilarities. No Welsh history is then in the world historic sense unique to Wales.


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## Brockway (Nov 13, 2005)

Applying your odd logic to the rest of the world, then no country on earth has a unique history. I would have thought it's precisely in the detail that we are defined, especially in an increasingly homogenized world culture. 

Using your argument (and the tautology in your last sentence) there is for example nothing uniquely Brazilian about Brazilian football. And we know that's bollocks.


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## neprimerimye (Nov 13, 2005)

Brockway said:
			
		

> Applying your odd logic to the rest of the world, then no country on earth has a unique history. I would have thought it's precisely in the detail that we are defined, especially in an increasingly homogenized world culture.
> 
> Using your argument (and the tautology in your last sentence) there is for example nothing uniquely Brazilian about Brazilian football. And we know that's bollocks.



Well I'm not qualified to comment on Brazilian football. I thought they played the same Association game as most yahoos. And yes something seems to have gone awry in that last sentence of my last. My apologies for a lack of clarity.

But I disagree that it is in the details that we are defined. Surely it is in those aspects of us that are universal that best define what and who we are? If so then i would suggest that a study of Welsh history reveals that Welsh society has changed according to patterns that are if not unversal at least widespread. The same is true of all peoples and all nations.

Certainly it is the details that separate one group from another. But it is the achievement or failure to achieve goals of world historic importance that is universal among all the peoples and nations. In which case however different in detail Welsh history has more in common with say Bohemia than it has differences of detail. Just as England has more in common with say France than it does differences.

This is not to say that the differences are of no importance as clearly they are of massive importance (to some more than others) in forming our personal and national identities. But it is to that which is universal that we must look if we wish to avoid the catastrophe that faces man.


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## mabinogi (Nov 13, 2005)

.


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## lewislewis (Nov 13, 2005)

First place in the world to employ more people in industry than in agriculture.

At one time, the power station of the developed world.

The way Wales' scenery and natural beauty can compete with any other place in the world.

The way people from Wales have exelled at arts, since medieval times when Welsh poetry was the best in Europe, to modern times when (certain areas of) Welsh music is the best in Europe.

The way everything we do and achieve is at odds with our tiny population.

The fact that after all these years we're still here.

: )


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## Col_Buendia (Nov 13, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> <snip>
> But it is to that which is universal that we must look if we wish to avoid the catastrophe that faces man.



Is man also the universal catastrophe that faces woman?


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## RubberBuccaneer (Nov 14, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Well I'm not qualified to comment on Brazilian football. I thought they played the same Association game as most yahoos. And yes something seems to have gone awry in that last sentence of my last. My apologies for a lack of clarity.
> 
> But I disagree that it is in the details that we are defined. Surely it is in those aspects of us that are universal that best define what and who we are? If so then i would suggest that a study of Welsh history reveals that Welsh society has changed according to patterns that are if not unversal at least widespread. The same is true of all peoples and all nations.
> 
> ...




Our love of language


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## fanta (Nov 14, 2005)

Though obviously not applicable to _every_ Welsh person, one thing that definitely seems to be a common characteristic of Welsh culture is an atavistic antipathy towards people simply because they are English.

Too often, if a person is guilty of the horrid crime of being born English, then it is automatically assumed among many Welsh people, that said person is an evil murderous bastard by virtue of the mere fact that s/he is English.

This illogical prejudice is explained by mainly historical reasons; mostly to do with people and events that happened many hundreds of years ago, far removed from the living memory of both the hater and the hated.

But that fact does nothing to quell the hatred, and perhaps feeling of resentful inferiority, many Welsh people feel when they compare themselves to their English neighbours. On the contrary, the sheer illogicality of it seems to compound the bad feeling.

This seething, paranoid bigotry and perhaps lack of self confidence, is at it's worst and ugliest when manifested in exaltation of Welsh nationalism; which far far far too often, is merely a pseudonym for _rabid anti-Englishness._


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## Gentleman Taff (Nov 14, 2005)

fanta said:
			
		

> Though obviously not applicable to _every_ Welsh person, one thing that definitely seems to be a common characteristic of Welsh culture is an atavistic antipathy towards people simply because they are English.
> 
> Too often, if a person is guilty of the horrid crime of being born English, then it is automatically assumed among many Welsh people, that said person is an evil murderous bastard by virtue of the mere fact that s/he is English.
> 
> ...




But we were talking about things that were _*distinctively*_ Welsh!


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## bendeus (Nov 14, 2005)

fanta said:
			
		

> Though obviously not applicable to _every_ Welsh person, one thing that definitely seems to be a common characteristic of Welsh culture is an atavistic antipathy towards people simply because they are English.
> 
> Too often, if a person is guilty of the horrid crime of being born English, then it is automatically assumed among many Welsh people, that said person is an evil murderous bastard by virtue of the mere fact that s/he is English.
> 
> ...




Cunt


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## LilMissHissyFit (Nov 14, 2005)

fanta said:
			
		

> Though obviously not applicable to _every_ Welsh person, one thing that definitely seems to be a common characteristic of Welsh culture is an atavistic antipathy towards people simply because they are English.
> 
> Too often, if a person is guilty of the horrid crime of being born English, then it is automatically assumed among many Welsh people, that said person is an evil murderous bastard by virtue of the mere fact that s/he is English.
> 
> ...



You know thats the funniest thing Ive heard in a long time.
I think actually you'll find that the anti englishness thing is very much something that exists only in english peoples heads.
Ive spoken to hoardes of footy fans who have visited for the first time to come to the millenuim stadium and who say theyve never been but like you decided that we all hated english people and were intending to have a quiet pint, speak only in an emergency and keep their heads down. Instead they got a welcome like no other and had the time of their lives partying and now cant see the point in building a new wembley.
Ive heard it over and over... Its a complete falacy  and frankly laughable


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## RubberBuccaneer (Nov 14, 2005)

fanta said:
			
		

> Though obviously not applicable to _every_ Welsh person, one thing that definitely seems to be a common characteristic of Welsh culture is an atavistic antipathy towards people simply because they are English.
> 
> Too often, if a person is guilty of the horrid crime of being born English, then it is automatically assumed among many Welsh people, that said person is an evil murderous bastard by virtue of the mere fact that s/he is English.
> 
> ...




Fuck Off Raffles


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## neprimerimye (Nov 14, 2005)

Col_Buendia said:
			
		

> Is man also the universal catastrophe that faces woman?



No class was the universal catastrophe that faced woman.

That is to say that if one accepts the materialist view of history the defeat of woman was a part of the development of the first class societies.

It logically follows that the social revolution cannot but be the liberation of woman.

In any case the manner in which I employed the word man was gender neutral.


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## Col_Buendia (Nov 14, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> <snip>In any case the manner in which I employed the word man was gender neutral.



So you have an emasculated view of history, then?


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## neprimerimye (Nov 14, 2005)

Col_Buendia said:
			
		

> So you have an emasculated view of history, then?



No a materialist view.   

It is anarchism which has a view of history which is emasculated in that it is unrelated to the future. But anarchism ever was sterile.


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## editor (Nov 14, 2005)

fanta said:
			
		

> This seething, paranoid bigotry and perhaps lack of self confidence, is at it's worst and ugliest when manifested in exaltation of Welsh nationalism; which far far far too often, is merely a pseudonym for _rabid anti-Englishness._


So how long have you hated the Welsh for?


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## fanta (Nov 14, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> So how long have you hated the Welsh for?



I don't hate the Welsh. The few that I've met have been fine people.

I do love to puncture the smug complacency of idiotic prejudice and bigotry though, especially when it is dressed up as _'nationalism'_


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## bendeus (Nov 14, 2005)

And overbloated, self-satisfied troll of the year goes to............


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## editor (Nov 14, 2005)

fanta said:
			
		

> I do love to puncture the smug complacency of idiotic prejudice and bigotry though, especially when it is dressed up as _'nationalism'_


Like you own idiotic anti-Welsh prejudice and  bigotry, you mean?


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## fanta (Nov 14, 2005)

LilMissHissyFit said:
			
		

> You know thats the funniest thing Ive heard in a long time.
> I think actually you'll find that the anti englishness thing is very much something that exists only in english peoples heads.
> Ive spoken to hoardes of footy fans who have visited for the first time to come to the millenuim stadium and who say theyve never been but like you decided that we all hated english people and were intending to have a quiet pint, speak only in an emergency and keep their heads down. Instead they got a welcome like no other and had the time of their lives partying and now cant see the point in building a new wembley.
> Ive heard it over and over... Its a complete falacy  and frankly laughable




Actually, I think you'll find that the anti-Englishness thing far too often plays ja part in Welsh nationalism.

It is reaasuring to note that you have spoken to hoardes of footy fans and their experiences.

It would also ne reassuring if you made the effort to note that I started my first post on this thread with the words: *Though obviously not applicable to every Welsh person*

So, you see, I am not like any footy fans who have decided that all Welsh people hate all English people.


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## bendeus (Nov 14, 2005)

No, Ed. 

He's doing us heathen a favour by bringing his enlightened views on us benighted, ignorant and hate-filled savages to our 'numble forum, and by doing so is ensuring that his quest to purge all Welsh posters of 'irrational' anti-Englishness is nobly advanced.


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## fanta (Nov 14, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> Like you own idiotic anti-Welsh prejudice and  bigotry, you mean?



I'm no nationalist and I'd appreciate it if you gave a few examples of my _anti-Welsh prejudice and  bigotry_?

That is something you can accuse me off if you must, but you will never be able to prove it or give examples of it.


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## fanta (Nov 14, 2005)

bendeus said:
			
		

> Cunt



*This illogical prejudice is explained by mainly historical reasons; mostly to do with people and events that happened many hundreds of years ago, far removed from the living memory of both the hater and the hated.

But that fact does nothing to quell the hatred, and perhaps feeling of resentful inferiority, many Welsh people feel when they compare themselves to their English neighbours. On the contrary, the sheer illogicality of it seems to compound the bad feeling.*


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## bendeus (Nov 14, 2005)

Your insistence on turning up to threads that have fuck all to do with you and your 'interests' and winding up the - ahem- Welsh posters therein is no proof at all, of course.


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## editor (Nov 14, 2005)

fanta said:
			
		

> I'm no nationalist and I'd appreciate it if you gave a few examples of my _anti-Welsh prejudice and  bigotry_?


Your negative outbursts on this thread fit the description pefectly.

I can almost _feel_ the anti-Welsh hatred in your posts. Why else are you posting here?


----------



## fanta (Nov 14, 2005)

bendeus said:
			
		

> Your insistence on turning up to threads that have fuck all to do with you and your 'interests' and winding up the - ahem- Welsh posters therein is no proof at all, of course.



I'm just arguing that anti-Englishness is a part (too much, I think) of Welsh nationalism in the 21st Century.

Maybe you will be clever enough to respond with 'cunt', yet again with feeling.


----------



## bendeus (Nov 14, 2005)

No, cunty. I just resent you.


----------



## bendeus (Nov 14, 2005)

Hope that helped


----------



## fanta (Nov 14, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> Your negative outbursts on this thread fit the description pefectly.
> 
> I can almost _feel_ the anti-Welsh hatred in your posts. Why else are you posting here?



Ah, you can't find any concrete proof of my bigotry - but wait! 

You can almost _feel_ the evidence.

Why am I posting here? Because I'm makeing an argument about anti-Englishness and it's contribution to Welsh nationalism. That's why.


----------



## bendeus (Nov 14, 2005)

Where's your little mate, BTW? 

The proof of your bigotry is evident in your endurance on this particular forum, in the fact that your posts are inflammatory and that every contribution you make seems to aggravate posters, which you then rejoin with self-satisfied bile relating to 'puncturing our little nationalist bubbles' or some such. Face facts ya cunt


----------



## mwgdrwg (Nov 14, 2005)

DO NOT FEED THE TROLL


----------



## bendeus (Nov 14, 2005)

mwgdrwg said:
			
		

> DO NOT FEED THE TROLL



sorry


----------



## editor (Nov 14, 2005)

fanta said:
			
		

> Ah, you can't find any concrete proof of my bigotry - but wait!


Get an adult to explain my words to you if you're not capable of comprehending their meaning.


----------



## fanta (Nov 14, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> Get an adult to explain my words to you if you're not capable of comprehending their meaning.



There is no need to be rude.

You prefer to accuse me of bigotry rather than address what I have to say about anti-Englishness and Welsh nationalism.

And then when I ask you to provide examples you are unable to.

I comprehend perfectly what you're about.


----------



## editor (Nov 14, 2005)

fanta said:
			
		

> There is no need to be rude.
> .


This coming from the hypocrite who's been hurling anti-Welsh abuse all over the thread!

_Priceless!_


----------



## ddraig (Nov 14, 2005)

fanta said:
			
		

> There is no need to be rude.
> 
> You prefer to accuse me of bigotry rather than address what I have to say about anti-Englishness and Welsh nationalism.
> 
> ...



raaaaaaa
oi fanta, reckon you're getting away with it
if i was ed you'd have been out ages ago and esp now   

and yes 'it is because i is Welsh' and you've come in here spreading shit a fair few times iirc, and i tend to not pay much attention to the likes of you   

another interesting contemplative thread in the Welsh forum destroyed by your twisted self!, i've been mulling my response to the op for a few days, is there any point now?


----------



## neprimerimye (Nov 14, 2005)

Is it possible to remove this fanta character?


----------



## bendeus (Nov 14, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Is it possible to remove this fanta character?



Try reporting him


----------



## lewislewis (Nov 14, 2005)

Disappointing that Fanta's ruined a fun and positive thread. Even Neprimerimye's contributions were more constructive.


----------



## bendeus (Nov 14, 2005)

I'm sure we can get back on track. How about a dour and stoical ability to see the sporting teams you love get beaten (badly) again and again, and to still retain pride in our sporting traditions despite all evidence that we are, on the whole, crap at most sports?


----------



## Gentleman Taff (Nov 14, 2005)

bendeus said:
			
		

> I'm sure we can get back on track. How about a dour and stoical ability to see the sporting teams you love get beaten (badly) again and again, and to still retain pride in our sporting traditions despite all evidence that we are, on the whole, crap at most sports?




Indeed, I think our sports teams have an uncanny ability to fail 'gloriously'.  For example, CCFC are the only team to have finished 2nd in all 4 divisions *and* lose an FA Cup final.  And as you may well know when we finished 2nd in the old 1st division (1923/24) it was by the smallest losing margin ever (0.03) of a goal.  Add to this the last time we finished 3rd in the second tier, it was when only two went up and you've got to start thinking......................this is not an accident, it's design


----------



## spacemonkey (Nov 14, 2005)

Gentleman Taff said:
			
		

> Indeed, I think our sports teams have an uncanny ability to fail 'gloriously'.  For example, CCFC are the only team to have finished 2nd in all 4 divisions *and* lose an FA Cup final.  And as you may well know when we finished 2nd in the old 1st division (1923/24) it was by the smallest losing margin ever (0.03) of a goal.  Add to this the last time we finished 3rd in the second tier, it was when only two went up and you've got to start thinking......................this is not an accident, it's design



Don't know where to start with welsh football......


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Nov 14, 2005)

Has anyone mentioned Lavabread yet?


----------



## Col_Buendia (Nov 14, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> No a materialist view.
> 
> It is anarchism which has a view of history which is emasculated in that it is unrelated to the future. But anarchism ever was sterile.



Hmmm... and who dragged anarchism into the discussion? Ah, Nep, that was beneath you. Scarcely worthy of our former colleague, Udo. But anyways, nothing like a bit of sectarian digging to fan the flames, eh


----------



## nwnm (Nov 15, 2005)

hmm... Trolls, people attacking each other and wandering way off thread - sounds a bit like that 'orrible RESPECT thread. Is fanta related to PM?

What is distinctively Welsh about Wales? I would have said yuppies moving into working class areas and then trying to get the locals to fuck off as they affect property prices - but then the parallels between Cardiff's docks and London's Docklands are a bit too obvious.

So I'll have to settle for losing to the All Blacks by only one point on the other side of the world and then completely cocking it up when they come here..... There's a definate touch of masochism in the national psyche


----------



## jannerboyuk (Nov 15, 2005)

nwnm said:
			
		

> So I'll have to settle for losing to the All Blacks by only one point on the other side of the world and then completely cocking it up when they come here.....


Errm..they lost by one point in Cardiff not the other side of the world. They lost  to New Zealand 53-37 in the 2003 world cup.


----------



## neprimerimye (Nov 15, 2005)

Col_Buendia said:
			
		

> Hmmm... and who dragged anarchism into the discussion? Ah, Nep, that was beneath you. Scarcely worthy of our former colleague, Udo. But anyways, nothing like a bit of sectarian digging to fan the flames, eh



Colonel my remarks were fair comment given that this thread has touched on historical themes. In fact historically the classical anarchist current as represented by Bakunin adhered to the historicist views associated with marx differing as to politics alone. As subsequent anarchist thinkers have not developed anything that can be considered a distinctive school of anarchist thinking as to history my remark that anarchisms historical thinking is impotent actually underplays the bankruptcy of anarchism.

That said I have the utmost respect for many anarchists if none for the doctrine. In fact I would argue that some anarchists today are closer in spirit to marxism than are many of the statists who masquerade as Marxists. Hopefully we can discuss this proposition in prson at some point.

I don't appreciate your dig at Udo by the way. That poor soul is a sectarian but tis not his fault and he does the best he can.


----------



## RubberBuccaneer (Nov 15, 2005)

Well back to the original question? 

What is distinctley Welsh in the 21st Century, this may not be distict, iut may apply to all small emerging nations, but for the first time in my life we are defining ourselves by what we are, not what we are not.
Throughout the 70,80,90's we were defining ourselves as 'we're not English' ( as anyone abroad will testify ), ' as long as we beat the English', ' I support two teams ,Wales and whoever's playing England'.

Now I feel we are more confident not to have to use others as a reference point for ourselves.

Even the English are following *our* lead and trying to promote their individual flag, after years of lording it with their 'union' flag. Of course it's even harder to define what is English as it,like most places is a mixture of waves of culture.


----------



## ddraig (Nov 15, 2005)

Mrs Magpie said:
			
		

> Has anyone mentioned Lavabread yet?



yes Mrs M
chilango at post 24


----------



## fanta (Nov 15, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> This coming from the hypocrite who's been hurling anti-Welsh abuse all over the thread!
> 
> _Priceless!_



That is rubbish and you know it. 

My arguments have been anti-bigotry and anti-nationalism.

Are you ever going to provide examples of me being an anti-Welsh bigot or are you just going to keep on chirruping the same charge without ever backing it up with evidence?


----------



## Gentleman Taff (Nov 15, 2005)

fanta said:
			
		

> That is rubbish and you know it.
> 
> My arguments have been anti-bigotry and anti-nationalism.
> 
> Are you ever going to provide examples of me being an anti-Welsh bigot or are you just going to keep on chirruping the same charge without ever backing it up with evidence?




Need a tissue for that froth coming out of your mouth?


----------



## Chriso (Nov 15, 2005)

Personally I find Wales a lot more relaxed than England, E.G. I went in a pub in england and some guy actually said to me "What you looking at" as I glanced noware near his direction , but in Wales, well Port Talbot especially I will be sitting there on my own or with someone and there will always be someone striking up some random conversation with me, its a nice 'friendlier' atmosphere.

Something else I have noticed is whenever an Englishman comes down here, as long as they arent too mouthy they will have a good time, people still take the mick but its all in good fun. This does not extend over the border though, all me & my mate got were "You're a long way from home taff.."


----------



## ddraig (Nov 15, 2005)

Chriso said:
			
		

> Personally I find Wales a lot more relaxed than England, E.G. I went in a pub in england and some guy actually said to me "What you looking at" as I glanced noware near his direction , but in Wales, well Port Talbot especially I will be sitting there on my own or with someone and there will always be someone striking up some random conversation with me, its a nice 'friendlier' atmosphere.
> 
> Something else I have noticed is whenever an Englishman comes down here, as long as they arent too mouthy they will have a good time, people still take the mick but its all in good fun. This does not extend over the border though, all me & my mate got were "You're a long way from home taff.."




applause   
welcome Chriso


----------



## LilMissHissyFit (Nov 15, 2005)

Cockles


----------



## Udo Erasmus (Nov 15, 2005)

Chriso said:
			
		

> Personally I find Wales a lot more relaxed than England, E.G. I went in a pub in england and some guy actually said to me "What you looking at" as I glanced noware near his direction , but in Wales, well Port Talbot especially I will be sitting there on my own or with someone and there will always be someone striking up some random conversation with me, its a nice 'friendlier' atmosphere.



I've been reading some stuff recently by Dai Smith, whose work I quite enjoy, on Welsh identity - anybody read any of his stuff? He co-wrote, "The Fed", and also books on Wales, and Nye Bevan

As an immigrant to Wales, my first impressions of Cardiff was that it seemed people were quite friendly - though this is subjective not empirical.

I arrived in Wales around the time that the Welsh media were doing a similar "Cool Britannia" thing for Wales with claims that Wales was now trendy and hip, possibly the hippest place in Britain (it was claimed) - apparently a mixture of the creation of the Welsh assembly euphoria and a number of Welsh bands - stereophonics, catatonia, super furry animals, gorky zygotic mynci and revived fortunes of manics and Tom Jones and the Charlotte "Voice of an Angel" Church thing.

On the subject of Welsh identity, it would be interesting to discuss how Wales is perceived outside of Wales.

Growing up in England, I had a view of Wales and the Welsh based mainly around "Celtic" cliches - a facility with language (a la Dylan Thomas), fiery temperament than the English, greater sense of community, miners, choirs, working class, socialism - the solid labour vote

Another thing that hasn't been discussed is the recent "Welsh project" an attempt linked with Plaid, the Welsh assembly and other agencies to create and construct a Welsh identity and sense of "nation" and "nationhood" - there is a conscious attempt from above to construct a Welsh identity - any thoughts on this

Personally, I object to this, for the same reasons that I object to the attempts at constructing a  left-wing English nationalism/patriotism found in George Orwell, Edward Thompson and even Tony Benn


----------



## Col_Buendia (Nov 15, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Colonel my remarks were fair comment given that this thread has touched on historical themes. <snip>



Oh c'mon, Nep, a discussion about Welsh identity in 21st Century, a discussion about a synchronic notion of identity if you want big words, and then I mentioned the absence of a diachronic view, to which you replied, fair enough, and then after a bit of gentle ribbing, you go off on one about anarchism.... and the link to Welsh identity in 21st Century is what, exactly?

I mean, if you can write stuff like 






			
				neprimerimye said:
			
		

> the manner in which I employed the word man was gender neutral


and keep a straight face, you should certainly consider yourself liable for a bit of friendly ridicule. I just quoted that to the woman who works next to me in the office, and she _exploded_ with laughter! 

And I'll not bother taking your bait, if you want an ideological handbag fest about anarchism and history, start a thread on it in Theory and PM me an invite


----------



## nwnm (Nov 15, 2005)

"Errm..they lost by one point in Cardiff not the other side of the world. They lost to New Zealand 53-37 in the 2003 world cup" Ah well - it felt like the other side of the world after the amount I drank. Finding the gents was a nightmare too


----------



## neprimerimye (Nov 16, 2005)

Col_Buendia said:
			
		

> Oh c'mon, Nep, a discussion about Welsh identity in 21st Century, a discussion about a synchronic notion of identity if you want big words, and then I mentioned the absence of a diachronic view, to which you replied, fair enough, and then after a bit of gentle ribbing, you go off on one about anarchism.... and the link to Welsh identity in 21st Century is what, exactly?
> 
> I mean, if you can write stuff like and keep a straight face, you should certainly consider yourself liable for a bit of friendly ridicule. I just quoted that to the woman who works next to me in the office, and she _exploded_ with laughter!
> 
> And I'll not bother taking your bait, if you want an ideological handbag fest about anarchism and history, start a thread on it in Theory and PM me an invite



Blimey "synchonic nation of identity". Nice phrase with no real meaning. Hey you really are an anarchist!

Seriously I dunno why you find the idea of the term Man as berng gender neutral to be funny. It was clear I was using the term to designate the whole bloody species.

I consider anyone and everyone fair game for some ridicule now and again. But not when they employ words in their correct and proper senses.

I was not baiting you btw. Frankly I've never yet met an anarchist capable of defending a specifically anarchist conception of history. Not because most anarchists have little knowledge of anarchist ideas, which is a given, but because there is nothing for you to defend. Now I'm baiting you.


----------



## niclas (Nov 16, 2005)

Udo Erasmus: "I arrived in Wales around the time that the Welsh media were doing a similar "Cool Britannia" thing for Wales with claims that Wales was now trendy and hip, possibly the hippest place in Britain (it was claimed) - apparently a mixture of the creation of the Welsh assembly euphoria and a number of Welsh bands - stereophonics, catatonia, super furry animals, gorky zygotic mynci and revived fortunes of manics and Tom Jones and the Charlotte "Voice of an Angel" Church thing.

On the subject of Welsh identity, it would be interesting to discuss how Wales is perceived outside of Wales.

Growing up in England, I had a view of Wales and the Welsh based mainly around "Celtic" cliches - a facility with language (a la Dylan Thomas), fiery temperament than the English, greater sense of community, miners, choirs, working class, socialism - the solid labour vote

Another thing that hasn't been discussed is the recent "Welsh project" an attempt linked with Plaid, the Welsh assembly and other agencies to create and construct a Welsh identity and sense of "nation" and "nationhood" - there is a conscious attempt from above to construct a Welsh identity - any thoughts on this"

=======


It's precisely because Wales has been patronisingly stereotyped as miners munching leeks, shagging sheep, playing rugby, singing in the rain, harp-playing while we burn your houses down, speak Welsh when you walk in the pub, slag heaps, slags, crow black, sloe-black, etc etc that there was a desperate need to create a new Welsh identity - both for those outside Wales and us living here.

If that was down to Plaid and any governmental department, I'd be amazed. It was mainly a media construct (yeah the same ones that pumped out the old image in the first place) but also based on a very real growth in national consciousness and identity. The youth of today are far more confident in asserting their Welshness than 20-30 years ago - perhaps because it's moved away from the aforementioned stereotypes.

I think Wales is probably still perceived in those cliched terms by English people - anyone remember the Lottery programme from the Rhondda... they had a male voice choir under a pithead, fecking tragic.


----------



## Hollis (Nov 16, 2005)

niclas said:
			
		

> I think Wales is probably still perceived in those cliched terms by English people - anyone remember the Lottery programme from the Rhondda... they had a male voice choir under a pithead, fecking tragic.




But you know that really isn't peculiar to Wales.. Its more of a metropolitan/SE thing versus rest of Britain.. There's numerous areas of Britain which get stereotyped.  Doesn't the same thing go on within areas of Wales?


----------



## LilMissHissyFit (Nov 16, 2005)

I guess it does but its in a very diluted and light hearted form. 
The great North/south divide and how north wales is full of brummies and mancs or welsh speakers, I guess we all sort of poke fun at each other.

The SE/middle england attitude seems to me to be overwhelmingly negative when speaking about other places, northerners are all ill educated, uncultured etc welsh pople hate english people and will hurt them if they stray into the wrong place/ will start speaking welsh for their benefit if they enter a pub  
I had someone from middle england tell me to my face that i wasnt 'one of them' becuase I was welsh, that yes I should automatically consider my place in the pecking order far lower and lower my expectations of life accordingly becuase I was welsh and well everyone knows you welsh arent very intelligent/articulate etc 
Many of the SE stereotypes seem to be some sort of an extension of the class based stereotyping that goes on- that people from middle england or the SE are of course FAR superior to everywhere else and feel the need to do everywhere else down becuase of course they are FAR more deserving becuase otherwise they wouldnt be able to live where they live/own what they do etc.
I also know someone who didnt believe there were areas in Wales where there were huge houses, independent schools and where children were chaufeured from and to their after school activities in 4X4's... becuase of course there arent any rich people in wales. Rich couldnt possibly be the same as you get in england now could it? why? becuase were welsh, dont be silly


----------



## RubberBuccaneer (Nov 16, 2005)

LilMissHissyFit said:
			
		

> I guess it does but its in a very diluted and light hearted form.
> The great North/south divide and how north wales is full of brummies and mancs or welsh speakers



And Mickeys!


----------



## LilMissHissyFit (Nov 16, 2005)

RubberBuccaneer said:
			
		

> And Mickeys!


aye aye aye Kaaaaam down kaaaaam down. Rhyl and buttontown, the perserve of the mancs who come on their jollies and never go home


----------



## RubberBuccaneer (Nov 16, 2005)

When I went to college in Leicester, I kept meeting people from North Wales, great I thought, give them the where you from,etc. 
Everyone of them said straight away *'I'm not Welsh '* as if they had to put me straight on that from the beginning. Never met a Welsh North Walian the whole time I was there...very odd.
I thought for a while that North Wales was inhabited by Mancs and Mickeys..seriously.


----------



## RubberBuccaneer (Nov 16, 2005)

Hollis said:
			
		

> But you know that really isn't peculiar to Wales.. Its more of a metropolitan/SE thing versus rest of Britain.. There's numerous areas of Britain which get stereotyped.  Doesn't the same thing go on within areas of Wales?



For once I'm in agreement with Hollis


----------



## LilMissHissyFit (Nov 16, 2005)

It is isnt it? 
Ive only ever met one proper northwalian. She was robbie savages cousin


----------



## RubberBuccaneer (Nov 16, 2005)

LilMissHissyFit said:
			
		

> It is isnt it?
> Ive only ever met one proper northwalian. She was robbie savages cousin



Did she look like Lisa Jaynes???


----------



## LilMissHissyFit (Nov 16, 2005)

No, she looked like robbie savage


----------



## LilMissHissyFit (Nov 16, 2005)

RubberBuccaneer said:
			
		

> Did she look like Lisa Jaynes???


I met her brother on a train to a wales international. He started with "now I dont tell people this very often .... but my sister was on Big brother"
Yeah right


----------



## RubberBuccaneer (Nov 16, 2005)

LilMissHissyFit said:
			
		

> I met her brother on a train to a wales international. He started with "now I dont tell people this very often .... but my sister was on Big brother"
> Yeah right



Is there no-one in Wales you don't know?


----------



## LilMissHissyFit (Nov 16, 2005)

Lots of people I suspect   I just seem to meet lots of people. Partly becuase of my husbands job i think. I end up doing lots of hovering in the background and loitering waiting for him while he's working


----------



## Gentleman Taff (Nov 16, 2005)

LilMissHissyFit said:
			
		

> It is isnt it?
> Ive only ever met one proper northwalian. She was robbie savages cousin



Is she a journalist?


----------



## Col_Buendia (Nov 16, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Blimey "synchonic nation of identity". Nice phrase with no real meaning. Hey you really are an anarchist!
> 
> Seriously I dunno why you find the idea of the term Man as berng gender neutral to be funny. It was clear I was using the term to designate the whole bloody species.
> 
> ...



Well Nep, at least your baiting skills have improved, if not your quoting ones! I said "notion", but not to worry 

I'm not sure who you would acknowledge as the adequate authority to pass judgement on "the correct and proper sense" of a word, but lets go for a controversial choice, that renowned bastion of anarchist thought, the OED:




			
				OED said:
			
		

> I. A human being (irrespective of sex or age).
> Man was considered until the 20th cent. to include women by implication, though referring primarily to males. It is now freq. understood to exclude women, and is therefore avoided by many people.
> In some of the quotations in this section, it is difficult or impossible to tell whether man is intended to mean ‘person’ or ‘male human being’.



I would direct your attention particularly to the note to the primary definition. If you find it "difficult or impossible" to distinguish between the male and female of the species, perhaps your revolution isn't going to make much headway in the Mothers Union, eh?


----------



## LilMissHissyFit (Nov 16, 2005)

Gentleman Taff said:
			
		

> Is she a journalist?



Not as far as Im aware. I met her on holiday though so not something we really talked about. Her Husband worked in IT


----------



## Gentleman Taff (Nov 16, 2005)

LilMissHissyFit said:
			
		

> Not as far as Im aware. I met her on holiday though so not something we really talked about. Her Husband worked in IT



Oh Ok I just wondered 'cos my wife was her bridesmaid !

It's a small world but I wouldn't want to paint it


----------



## RubberBuccaneer (Nov 16, 2005)

Gentleman Taff said:
			
		

> Oh Ok I just wondered 'cos my wife was her bridesmaid !
> 
> It's a small world but I wouldn't want to paint it



No shit!


----------



## ICB (Nov 16, 2005)

mr_mark said:
			
		

> Is it just the accent and language? Apart from these things, does anything differentiate Wales from England, Ireland, Scotland, for example? Sure, it has its own history but how is that reflected in the everyday lives of the people who live here? Is it just another part of the UK?



It's east of Ireland, south of Scotland and mostly west of England.

It's a different shape.

It has unique physical features, in much the same way that everywhere else does, except maybe man made islands off Dubai and reclaimed flatlands.

Its flag has a dragon on.

There are differences in policy on health, education, local govt., etc.

Ummm.

There aren't really any useful generalisations I can make about the people or the culture because they're both as varied as they are in any fairly large country.  Gwynedd and Glamorgan are as at least as different as Yorkshire and Somerset.


----------



## Brockway (Nov 16, 2005)

> I've been reading some stuff recently by Dai Smith, whose work I quite enjoy, on Welsh identity - anybody read any of his stuff? He co-wrote, "The Fed", and also books on Wales, and Nye Bevan



He's been having a bit of a literary spat with Stephen Knight in recent issues of _New Welsh Review _ over the veracity of a post-colonial interpretation of Welsh literature. Think Jets versus Sharks but without the pulsating music.

And he's overseen the choice of 20 lost classics  (if that's not a bit of a contradiction in terms) in Welsh fiction to be reprinted by Parthian. Some good selections, some not so good, and a few shocking omissions - what no Arthur Machen?


----------



## nwnm (Nov 16, 2005)

hmm... I'm enjoying this thread (always a worrying sign). I've picked up the odd copy of New Welsh Review but never got round to parting with any cash, taking one home and reading it. I'll have to look it up on the net. I do like getting the odd copy of 'Planet (the Welsh Internationalist)', and used to enjoy reading Radical Wales when it was about. I also managed to find a shed load of back issues of Rebecca, and some other mag, the name of which escapes me, in a second hand book shop once - and they made interesting reading. Are there any other Welsh cultural/political magazines available in English worth a look?


----------



## neprimerimye (Nov 17, 2005)

Col_Buendia said:
			
		

> Well Nep, at least your baiting skills have improved, if not your quoting ones! I said "notion", but not to worry
> 
> I'm not sure who you would acknowledge as the adequate authority to pass judgement on "the correct and proper sense" of a word, but lets go for a controversial choice, that renowned bastion of anarchist thought, the OED:
> 
> I would direct your attention particularly to the note to the primary definition. If you find it "difficult or impossible" to distinguish between the male and female of the species, perhaps your revolution isn't going to make much headway in the Mothers Union, eh?



Its not my baiting skills that were at fault but my typing skills it would seem. Actually the substitution of nation for notion was an unconscious slip which given the nature of this thread is curious I feel.

I find your reliance on an English dictionary to be worrying. I always use an American dictionary myself. But in this case a philosophical dictionary would supply an answer to your question of the proper usage of the word man. In which case you will find that the gender sense of the word is quite correct and gender neutral.

Please don't ask me for a reference to a good philosophical dictionary! Mines long lost i just crib from Hegel and Marx.


----------



## editor (Nov 17, 2005)

ICB said:
			
		

> There are differences in policy on health, education, local govt., etc.


And a political/religious historical identity quite different to its neighbour.


----------



## Poi E (Nov 17, 2005)

The public toilets are cleaner than in England IME.


----------



## ICB (Nov 17, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> And a political/religious historical identity quite different to its neighbour.



Which bit of its neighbour?  One or two similarities with Cornwall, and with the rest of England in terms of Protestantism, non-conformism, Norman conquest, pre-Roman religion, etc., etc.

I guess the emphasis on difference or commonality depends on where one's coming from, if anywhere.


----------



## Belushi (Nov 17, 2005)

ICB said:
			
		

> pre-Roman religion, etc., etc.



There wasn't even an England at that time, you were all still living in Germany


----------



## Belushi (Nov 17, 2005)

ICB said:
			
		

> Which bit of its neighbour?  One or two similarities with Cornwall, and with the rest of England in terms of Protestantism, non-conformism, Norman conquest, pre-Roman religion, etc., etc.



Some regions of England may have had similarities to Wales , but undoubtedly comparing nation to nation they are very different hisotrically in terms of religion and politics; with (in very broad terms) Wales being more radical and nonconformist and England more tory and Episcopalian.


----------



## Belushi (Nov 17, 2005)

> Norman conquest



Wales had a very different experience of the Normans than England, the Norman Marcher Lords impose themselves in the border areas but Wales certainly wanst conquered in 1066 like England.


----------



## neprimerimye (Nov 17, 2005)

Belushi said:
			
		

> Wales had a very different experience of the Normans than England, the Norman Marcher Lords impose themselves in the border areas but Wales certainly wanst conquered in 1066 like England.



Sure 1066 did not see the wholesale conquest of Wales but pretty much most of what we know as Gwent/Glamorganshire was in the hands of Anglo-Norman thugs within a generation not just the borders.

Therein lies the problem of depicting a Welsh national history as one of resistance to said Anglo-Norman barons does it not? Especially gven that said thugs tended to marry into existing ruling families of Welsh Princly thugs.

My point being that a class approach to Welsh history is infinitely more truthfull than a nationalist history which in this period cannot but distort the history of this country to favour the region in which the native Welsh Princes held out rather longer.


----------



## durruti02 (Nov 17, 2005)

fanta said:
			
		

> *This illogical prejudice is explained by mainly historical reasons; mostly to do with people and events that happened many hundreds of years ago, far removed from the living memory of both the hater and the hated.
> 
> But that fact does nothing to quell the hatred, and perhaps feeling of resentful inferiority, many Welsh people feel when they compare themselves to their English neighbours. On the contrary, the sheer illogicality of it seems to compound the bad feeling.*



unfortunately not true .. you could argue that the destruction of industry and community in wales by thatcher was not unqiue to wales .. south yorks etc etc .. but the discrimination against the language is more recent .. e.g. up till the very recent times cymraeg has been clearly discriminated agianst .. further back and only one generation ago my dad was not allowed to speak his home language at school .. 

however you hit upon a clear indicator of racism .. that many welsh people, especially those who do not speak welsh have an negative attitude to cymraeg and those who speak it .. this is not just based on contempt for the taffia but is a classic thing whereby peoples who have part of their culture banned and ridiculed for centuries actually themselves feel it is somehow backward .. and those who have lost cymreag feel alienated from it and too look down on it


----------



## durruti02 (Nov 17, 2005)

mwgdrwg said:
			
		

> DO NOT FEED THE TROLL


sorry mised that too


----------



## durruti02 (Nov 17, 2005)

ICB said:
			
		

> Which bit of its neighbour?  One or two similarities with Cornwall, and with the rest of England in terms of Protestantism, non-conformism, Norman conquest, pre-Roman religion, etc., etc.
> 
> I guess the emphasis on difference or commonality depends on where one's coming from, if anywhere.



and which bit of wales .. the northern  rural bits?? the valleys ?? the anthracite versus the steam?? it is all very complicated  

 what is welsh? i think the language is very important.. and really i should say languages and dialect ..gog/ceredigion or whatever .. why?? because i think it is important to  keep diversity .. the old labour movement in the valleys deliberately moved away from the language as they saw it as backward and english as the langauage internationalism .. fair play but now we all have english so lets all have all the welsh laguages too .. 

 to me wales has always been defined by its class .. industrial both in blaenau ffestiniog  and blaenau gwent and the 'poor' rural people .. and the consequence of that class that they had a tradituion of struggle  .. times change though and now i do not know where that lies 

and i do not like borders .. we should not be trying to recreate a border .. but be positive with culture .. as for all communities they should have power over housing etc etc 

p.s. i'd like to think geraint jarman is a good symbol of 21st century wales ( even though he is an old boy now!)


----------



## Dai Sheep (Nov 17, 2005)

fanta said:
			
		

> Though obviously not applicable to _every_ Welsh person, one thing that definitely seems to be a common characteristic of Welsh culture is an atavistic antipathy towards people simply because they are English.
> 
> Too often, if a person is guilty of the horrid crime of being born English, then it is automatically assumed among many Welsh people, that said person is an evil murderous bastard by virtue of the mere fact that s/he is English.
> 
> ...



Well I'm a Welsh nationalist and I don't hate the English. But heres why some people may be a tad annoyed.

The fact is the Welsh for the most part have been treated with contempt by the English for over a 1000 years. Even today we are still at times patronised and dismissed by the British government, especially over issues of devolution - Alderney and the Isle of Man have more power than us.
The Welsh have had their language literally beat out of them - Even as late as the 19th century the Welsh were described by a British government education board as dirty, immoral and under the evil influence of the Welsh language. Our history and culture has been 'Anglicised' out of us by the teaching of an Anglocentric version of 'British' history.This information can be gleaned from any Welsh history book - John Davies, History of Wales is a good start.

Welsh nationalist is not a dirty word. Many countries have little tradition as nation states at all, look at the African continent for starters, the USA is only 230 years old, Australia, NZ all former colonies. The last ones remain in Britain. Granted, Wales has rarely been united politically, but people in this peninsula of the British Isles have called themselves Welsh for the last 1400 years, have their own language, culture and identity. We are as deserving as any nation to determine our own destiny.

What about English nationalists, anti-welshness and racism in England???
http://www.crossofstgeorge.net/forum/index.php

Our identity is under constant pressure and it's easy for someone from England to say not to harp on about the past, when all British symbols and icons are English, indeed Britain is synonomous with England in most other countries.

Without a good dose of *peaceful* nationalism Wales would have probably gone the same way Cornwall did centuries ago.


----------



## lewislewis (Nov 17, 2005)

Without 'Welsh nationalists' Wales would not be a nation today. End of story as far as that matter is concerned.


----------



## neprimerimye (Nov 18, 2005)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> unfortunately not true .. you could argue that the destruction of industry and community in wales by thatcher was not unqiue to wales .. south yorks etc etc .. but the discrimination against the language is more recent .. e.g. up till the very recent times cymraeg has been clearly discriminated agianst .. further back and only one generation ago my dad was not allowed to speak his home language at school ..
> 
> however you hit upon a clear indicator of racism .. that many welsh people, especially those who do not speak welsh have an negative attitude to cymraeg and those who speak it .. this is not just based on contempt for the taffia but is a classic thing whereby peoples who have part of their culture banned and ridiculed for centuries actually themselves feel it is somehow backward .. and those who have lost cymreag feel alienated from it and too look down on it



Good points but the argument concerning loss of culture doesn't have a lot of reality to may Welsh people. The fact is that for many of us none of our ancestors ever spoke Welsh and never shared in some mythical Welsh culture. English is our language and our cultural medium. Welsh is as foreign as Swahili.

Now mine is not a negative attitude towards your language but one of disinterest. Its not an attitude that looks down on Welsh either but one that has no interest in it. And thats an attitude that many Welsh people share total disinterest in your language.

Politically I'm all in favour of Cymraeg being taught in all the schools, a new better language act and so forth. I'm in favour of subsidising Welsh medium culture and building more Welsh medium schools where demand exists. Even at the expense, where they be conflicts, of similar English medium projects. But please do not expect me or the majority of English speaking Welsh people to actually care about what is, to us, an alien language.

Look you its not discrimination we simply have our own language and thats enough. We're disinterested thats all.


----------



## neprimerimye (Nov 18, 2005)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> Without 'Welsh nationalists' Wales would not be a nation today. End of story as far as that matter is concerned.



Absolutely correct. Now generalise the idea.

Without nationalists we would have no nations! What a better place this world would be.


----------



## editor (Nov 18, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Without nationalists we would have no nations! What a better place this world would be.


The World Cup wouldn't be much fun though.


----------



## Poi E (Nov 18, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Without nationalists we would have no nations! What a better place this world would be.



Or just one autocratic nation.


----------



## Col_Buendia (Nov 18, 2005)

_[polishes fingernails on lapel]_

So y'all had to start talking about history, did you?

_[/polishes fingernails on lapel]_


----------



## niclas (Nov 18, 2005)

Neprimerye: "Welsh is as foreign as Swahili."

This is a pretty dumb thing to say - like it or loathe it, it's impossible today not to realise that Wales is an increasingly bilingual country publicly (whether or not that masks a continuing decline in the language as a spoken tongue is another matter).

I don't mind Neprimerye being disinterested but he can't get away with assuming the role of spokesman for 80% of Welsh people. Many of whom are - unlike him - either actively learning, sending their kids to a Welsh-medium school or are sympathetic to the language.

I agree that many people in Wales don't have any connection (in a family sense) to the Welsh language but many of those are also learning or sympathetic. This is as true of Cardiff as it is of Rhyl or Aberystwyth.

And, as with any struggle, to be apathetic or disinterested is to side with the rich and powerful.


----------



## fanta (Nov 18, 2005)

Dai Sheep said:
			
		

> Well I'm a Welsh nationalist and I don't hate the English. But heres why some people may be a tad annoyed.
> 
> The fact is the Welsh for the most part have been treated with contempt by the English for over a 1000 years. Even today we are still at times patronised and dismissed by the British government, especially over issues of devolution - Alderney and the Isle of Man have more power than us.
> The Welsh have had their language literally beat out of them - Even as late as the 19th century the Welsh were described by a British government education board as dirty, immoral and under the evil influence of the Welsh language. Our history and culture has been 'Anglicised' out of us by the teaching of an Anglocentric version of 'British' history.This information can be gleaned from any Welsh history book - John Davies, History of Wales is a good start.
> ...



You state that the Welsh are patronised and dismissed British government! So what? Are not ordinary Scottish and English working peoples just a patronised and dismissed?

In other words, these are piss-poor reasons for anybody to harbour anti-English prejudice. It merely signals either their stupidity or unwillingness to think.

You ask what about English nationalists, anti-welshness and racism in England? My answer is I have the same contempt as I have for their Welsh counterparts - they are equally stupid and obnoxious.

Finally, you stae that 'We are as deserving as any nation to determine our own destiny' And I agree with you.



(Oh, and Editor - I'm still waiting for you to post any evidence to back up your accusation that I hate the Welsh per se! 

Any chance of getting it?)


----------



## editor (Nov 18, 2005)

fanta said:
			
		

> (Oh, and Editor - I'm still waiting for you to post any evidence to back up your accusation that I hate the Welsh per se!
> 
> Any chance of getting it?)


It's already been posted and acknowledged by several other posters on this thread.

If you're unable to see your own prejudice, that's your problem, not mine.


----------



## fanta (Nov 18, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> It's already been posted and acknowledged by several other posters on this thread.
> 
> If you're unable to see your own prejudice, that's your problem, not mine.



You throw accusations around like confetti with fuck all evidence to back them up and you don't even have the integrity to acknowledge you were wrong.

If anybody had accused you of bigotry without any evidence like you did to me then you would have banned them.

Pretty poor show.


----------



## Col_Buendia (Nov 18, 2005)

Fanta - a quick comment from an impartial observer (in fact a Belfast born impartial observer, if you must know).

Your 1st post on this thread was outrageous.

Your prejudiced little slip is showing, and only you can't seem to see it. Aye, there is none so blind etc etc etc.

But don't bother listening, that's not what prejudiced people do. Dismiss and fume a little more, eh?


----------



## jannerboyuk (Nov 18, 2005)

Col_Buendia said:
			
		

> Fanta - a quick comment from an impartial observer (in fact a Belfast born impartial observer, if you must know).
> 
> Your 1st post on this thread was outrageous.
> 
> ...


I would just like to back up this point as an englishman living in wales - Fanta's nonsense about english hating nationalist hordes in wales is so far of the mark it can't even be measured.


----------



## fanta (Nov 18, 2005)

Oh you mean my first post that starts with the words: *Though obviously not applicable to every Welsh person...*

Pathetic!  

Show me the evidence!


----------



## Poi E (Nov 18, 2005)

fanta said:
			
		

> But that fact does nothing to quell the hatred, and perhaps feeling of resentful inferiority, many Welsh people feel when they compare themselves to their English neighbours. On the contrary, the sheer illogicality of it seems to compound the bad feeling..[/I]



This one interests me. Is it the experience of Welsh people on here to feel, or know of people who feel inferior to English people? Many I've spoken too seemed to have a curious indifference about the whole thing.


----------



## fanta (Nov 18, 2005)

Poi E said:
			
		

> This one interests me. Is it the experience of Welsh people on here to feel, or know of people who feel inferior to English people? Many I've spoken too seemed to have a curious indifference about the whole thing.



Maybe I should have said many Welsh _nationalists_ rather, that would be more accurate. Point taken.


----------



## bendeus (Nov 18, 2005)

fanta said:
			
		

> Oh you mean my first post that starts with the words: *Though obviously not applicable to every Welsh person...*
> 
> Pathetic!
> 
> Show me the evidence!



And you think that excuses your tawdry little trolling exercise do you? I note you haven't responded to any of MY posts regarding why I think you're a bigoted cunt. 



Cunt


----------



## Belushi (Nov 18, 2005)

People should try and ignore the trolling orange cunt, we know that whenever there's a wales thread he appears like a bad smell.


----------



## fanta (Nov 18, 2005)

bendeus said:
			
		

> And you think that excuses your tawdry little trolling exercise do you? I note you haven't responded to any of MY posts regarding why I think you're a bigoted cunt.
> 
> 
> 
> Cunt



Why? Has Bendeus got some evidence?

Oooh! let's see it then...

Otherwise, please stop ruining the thread with your juvenile and disruptive outbursts 

Honestly, screaming 'cunt' again and again to show the world how clever you are...aww, poor bendeus!   You're as daft and hopeless as Belushi!


----------



## bendeus (Nov 18, 2005)

fanta said:
			
		

> Why? Has Bendeus got some evidence?
> 
> Oooh! let's see it then...
> 
> ...





> ....The proof of your bigotry is evident in your endurance on this particular forum, in the fact that your posts are inflammatory and that every contribution you make seems to aggravate posters, which you then rejoin with self-satisfied bile relating to 'puncturing our little nationalist bubbles' or some such. Face facts ya cunt



I scream cunt again and again both because I genuinely think you are one, and because I don't believe your dreary trolling is meritorious of a particularly reasoned response. If you want mature, well thought out rejoinders to your posts, try to enter a debate or discussion with the intention of contributing to its growth rather than attempting to aggravate nearly every poster with your heady blend of arrogance, bigotry and spite.


Ta


----------



## editor (Nov 18, 2005)

fanta said:
			
		

> You throw accusations around like confetti with fuck all evidence to back them up and you don't even have the integrity to acknowledge you were wrong.


You may be unable to acknowledge or face up to your bigotry, but I suggest you read - and absorb- the comments made by other posters at your earliest convenience.


----------



## editor (Nov 18, 2005)

Poi E said:
			
		

> This one interests me. Is it the experience of Welsh people on here to feel, or know of people who feel inferior to English people? Many I've spoken too seemed to have a curious indifference about the whole thing.


I certainly don't share "the hatred, and perhaps feeling of resentful inferiority" that fanta cluelessly claims *"many"* Welsh people feel when they "compare themselves to their English neighbours."

What a load of vile, bigoted shit you spout, fanta.


----------



## Poi E (Nov 18, 2005)

My experience on visits was one of curious indifference, TBH. And I did my research, rugby games and pubs all over the place.


----------



## Udo Erasmus (Nov 18, 2005)

Brockway said:
			
		

> He's (Dai Smith) been having a bit of a literary spat with Stephen Knight in recent issues of _New Welsh Review _ over the veracity of a post-colonial interpretation of Welsh literature. Think Jets versus Sharks but without the pulsating music.
> 
> And he's overseen the choice of 20 lost classics  (if that's not a bit of a contradiction in terms) in Welsh fiction to be reprinted by Parthian. Some good selections, some not so good, and a few shocking omissions - what no Arthur Machen?



What would you argue were the classics of Welsh fiction? - and what do you think was omitted from the list?

No Caradoc Evans.

Lewis Jones who he does mention is a pretty inspiration writer, kind of steinbeck in scope and a representative of the militant communist tradition in South Wales.

On Dai Smith, I find his stuff kind of enjoyable and interesting to read, but personally I find his arguments a little hard to follow and difficult to pin down what exactly he is saying.


----------



## Swan (Nov 18, 2005)

Originally Posted by fanta
But that fact does nothing to quell the hatred, and perhaps feeling of resentful inferiority, many Welsh people feel when they compare themselves to their English neighbours. On the contrary, the sheer illogicality of it seems to compound the bad feeling..[/I]  

Are you a member of the Anne Robinson fan club by any chance?


----------



## fanta (Nov 18, 2005)

bendeus said:
			
		

> I scream cunt again and again both because I genuinely think you are one, and because I don't believe your dreary trolling is meritorious of a particularly reasoned response. If you want mature, well thought out rejoinders to your posts, try to enter a debate or discussion with the intention of contributing to its growth rather than attempting to aggravate nearly every poster with your heady blend of arrogance, bigotry and spite.
> 
> 
> Ta



Translation: _I think you are a bigot even though I have no evidence. Despite knowing full well that makes me a risible fool for taking that position, I am going to take that position regardless._

Ta


----------



## fanta (Nov 18, 2005)

Swan said:
			
		

> Originally Posted by fanta
> But that fact does nothing to quell the hatred, and perhaps feeling of resentful inferiority, many Welsh people feel when they compare themselves to their English neighbours. On the contrary, the sheer illogicality of it seems to compound the bad feeling..[/I]
> 
> Are you a member of the Anne Robinson fan club by any chance?



No. I think she is horrid.


----------



## fanta (Nov 18, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> I certainly don't share "the hatred, and perhaps feeling of resentful inferiority" that fanta cluelessly claims *"many"* Welsh people feel when they "compare themselves to their English neighbours."
> 
> What a load of vile, bigoted shit you spout, fanta.



I've already acknowledged that I should have used the term Welsh nationalist rather than Welsh person per se...

When I'm wrong about something I change my mind - what do you do?

Or maybe you're never wrong?


----------



## fanta (Nov 18, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> You may be unable to acknowledge or face up to your bigotry, but I suggest you read - and absorb- the comments made by other posters at your earliest convenience.



I have just yet again read all those comments from other posters - who like you either directly accuse me of being a bigot, or at least infer it.

Like you, the best they manage can is to _reiterate the accusation_. 

Like you, they are curiously unable to provide *any* supporting evidence! None!! Not a single fucking example!!!

Like you, the best they can muster is to hysterically repeat, ad infinitum et ad nauseum, the same evidence-free excremental nonsense.

I suggest to you, dear Editor, that you either show me the evidence to back up your sordid dishonest accusation, or retract and apologise for your lack of integrity.

Rest assured that I'm still in a forgiving mood, despite the lies told about me!


----------



## durruti02 (Nov 18, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Good points but the argument concerning loss of culture doesn't have a lot of reality to may Welsh people. The fact is that for many of us none of our ancestors ever spoke Welsh and never shared in some mythical Welsh culture. English is our language and our cultural medium. Welsh is as foreign as Swahili.
> 
> Now mine is not a negative attitude towards your language but one of disinterest. Its not an attitude that looks down on Welsh either but one that has no interest in it. And thats an attitude that many Welsh people share total disinterest in your language.
> 
> ...



fair points but you do not deal with the reasons i raised about why so many people in wales are disinterested in cymraeg .. which they clearly are!!


----------



## ddraig (Nov 18, 2005)

fanta said:
			
		

> I have just yet again read all those comments from other posters - who like you either directly accuse me of being a bigot, or at least infer it.
> 
> Like you, the best they manage can is to _reiterate the accusation_.
> 
> ...


get a grip man! ffs!


----------



## Poi E (Nov 18, 2005)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> fair points but you do not deal with the reasons i raised about why so many people in wales are disinterested in cymraeg .. which they clearly are!!



Big growth amongst younger people in the knowledge of the Welsh language over the last 30 years, though.


----------



## neprimerimye (Nov 18, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> The World Cup wouldn't be much fun though.



What is The World Cup? A drinking contest?


----------



## neprimerimye (Nov 18, 2005)

niclas said:
			
		

> Neprimerye: "Welsh is as foreign as Swahili."
> 
> This is a pretty dumb thing to say - like it or loathe it, it's impossible today not to realise that Wales is an increasingly bilingual country publicly (whether or not that masks a continuing decline in the language as a spoken tongue is another matter).
> 
> And, as with any struggle, to be apathetic or disinterested is to side with the rich and powerful.



A struggle that is sponsored and supported by the institutions of the British state! Come on laddie if everyone spoke Cymraeg this country would still form a part of bourgeois society. Capital cares not a fig which language we speak.

Now like it or not my comment that Cymraeg was and is as foreign as Swahili is a statement of fact. No more no less. For most people in Wales that is the truth despite 'sympathy' for the Welsh language. Look we speak English, use English language media and think in English. A smattering of Welsh learnt at school ain't gonna substantially change that.


----------



## neprimerimye (Nov 18, 2005)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> fair points but you do not deal with the reasons i raised about why so many people in wales are disinterested in cymraeg .. which they clearly are!!



I cannot answer a question that makes no snse to me. Why should English speaking Welsh people be interested? Its not our language after all. it belongs to those who speak and only they can keep it going or not as the case may be.

Politically my only interest is that Welsh speaker have the same democratic rights to use their language as English speakers. Other than that its up to them.


----------



## Gentleman Taff (Nov 18, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Now like it or not my comment that Cymraeg was and is as foreign as Swahili is a statement of fact.




Hmmm..  but I don't know how to say 'swimming pool' in swahili, so I'd suggest this statement is either an exaggeration or opinion.


----------



## editor (Nov 18, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Now like it or not my comment that Cymraeg was and is as foreign as Swahili is a statement of fact. No more no less.


In Wales? Utter drivel.


----------



## jjuice (Nov 18, 2005)

My mother, along with many others, used to get the cane for speaking Welsh in school, the language was literally beaten out of a generation. It's important not to forget history because it helps us understand where we are today. 
Even those of us who are not fluent yn Cymraeg don't feel alienated from it IMO. I made a choice to send my children to an all Welsh speaking school and they are both fluent Welsh speakers, I'm very glad to say. Now that they have left school they find that being Welsh speaking has great advantages especially when seeking employment in Wales. 

I would agree in part that some may be disinterested, but I see no evidence of the bad attitude toward our language. It's such a pretty silly language that rolls off the tongue with such melody and charm.


----------



## durruti02 (Nov 18, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> I cannot answer a question that makes no snse to me. Why should English speaking Welsh people be interested? Its not our language after all. it belongs to those who speak and only they can keep it going or not as the case may be.
> 
> Politically my only interest is that Welsh speaker have the same democratic rights to use their language as English speakers. Other than that its up to them.



sorry but how does it make no sense .. it is like saying that the moment someone has something  stolen they lose interest in that thing! 

the q. remains WHY are non cymraeg speakers not interested??

 the point is, to repeat, that there are reasons WHY english speaking welsh people do not speak welsh ..
 partly it is to do with immigration .. may english of course emigrated to the valleys .. though also many of those DID learn welsh ... 
and partly it is due to negative reasons .. that welsh was banned etc etc .. and that welsh was portrayed as backward and so any welsh people became to think of it as backward ... people did not speak welsh as it made them FEEL backward or they did not want to be seen as backward .. this inferiority thing stills exists ..

 there was also the positive that many w/c welsh saw cymraeg as too restrictive in an era of internationalism .. but we can do BOTH nowadays .. like we can both talk in a pub AND conmmunicate via internet with people from japan ..


----------



## durruti02 (Nov 18, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Look we speak English, use English language media and think in English. A smattering of Welsh learnt at school ain't gonna substantially change that.



 nep what is your attitude mate ?? 

do you not realise that outside of this monolingual england there is no problem with differrent languages coexisting?? 

that bi/multi lingual is in fact more comman than not?? .. 

italy/germany/switzerland/austria/finland/spain/most of russina fed/old yugoslavia/china!!/ etc etc these are all countrys where there is a common language .. Tuscan-official italian / hoch deutsch/ spainish/ russian /mandarin and a thousend dialects happily co existing?? so why shouldn't the welsh dialects similarly co exist?


----------



## durruti02 (Nov 18, 2005)

i guess one of the other things i always thought as as welsh was the longing thing ( hiraeth) .. the longing for something better .. whether expressed though relegion or politics .. does this still mean anything in the 21st c.???


----------



## LilMissHissyFit (Nov 18, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> I cannot answer a question that makes no snse to me. Why should English speaking Welsh people be interested? Its not our language after all. it belongs to those who speak and only they can keep it going or not as the case may be.
> 
> Politically my only interest is that Welsh speaker have the same democratic rights to use their language as English speakers. Other than that its up to them.


You know, I used to share your opinion( and have voiced it here to the annoyance of others) but as I get that bit older Im actually embarrassed about the fact that I dont know enough welsh.


----------



## timestamp (Nov 18, 2005)

Annoyance and embarrasment is the least of your emotions when you're told that your language is disposable


----------



## LilMissHissyFit (Nov 18, 2005)

errm no Ive never shared the disposable opinion. Merely the if you want to use it fine great carry on i dont speak it and IM not that worried if people do or not( as people who have posted here for any period of time will know)I also used to think kids shouldnt be forced to learn it

as Im getting older I am embarrassed by the fact I dont know enough myself and am glad my kids learn it.Thats partly me getting older and partly my kdis now attending a school where welsh is taught well rather than as some sort of token effort as in their previous school


----------



## durruti02 (Nov 18, 2005)

LilMissHissyFit said:
			
		

> You know, I used to share your opinion( and have voiced it here to the annoyance of others) but as I get that bit older Im actually embarrassed about the fact that I dont know enough welsh.



maybe it is an age thing   .. growing up in england i had sian a sion and the like and was desperately jealous of all the kids speaking welsh (welsh and english immigrants) on my holidays and after almost going to an URDD learner camp in my early teens gave it all up for politics girls and rock and roll!    now partly as my dad is getting old, partly with a view to living in wales and partly cos i think it is right to resist homogenisation i am learning again    .. it is a hard but be lovely language to learn .. what other languages have mutations and cut out half the letters to make it sound nicer!!   my classes are hilarious tbh as the teacher regards the books and rules with contempt!!


----------



## Poi E (Nov 18, 2005)

jjuice said:
			
		

> It's such a pretty silly language that rolls off the tongue with such melody and charm.



Lovely description. 

The expansion of the teaching of Maori laid the groundwork for great change in New Zealand, politically and socially. I think the growth of a language causes not simply another means of communication but causes a shift in identity and motivation, too.


----------



## Redstar (Nov 18, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> A struggle that is sponsored and supported by the institutions of the British state! Come on laddie if everyone spoke Cymraeg this country would still form a part of bourgeois society. Capital cares not a fig which language we speak.
> 
> Now like it or not my comment that Cymraeg was and is as foreign as Swahili is a statement of fact. No more no less. For most people in Wales that is the truth despite 'sympathy' for the Welsh language. Look we speak English, use English language media and think in English. A smattering of Welsh learnt at school ain't gonna substantially change that.



 The phrase "Malu Cachu" comes to mind here  Welsh is part of the inheritance of ALL Welsh people regardless of where they come from. It's interesting to see that politically the only people who may share your opinion mate are the Tories in Cymru. Are you a Tory in disguise? 

 Where I live Welsh is definitely on the increase, and I live in an English speaking area, so as far as I'm concerned your talking rubbish. I've even noticed an increase in the amount of welsh spoken in work, and I put that down to 2 main things 1) more positive attitudes, especially amongst the younger generation (but certainly not exclusively) and 2) also people like myself who use welsh actively in work and other social situations - even if only on the phone to welsh speaking mates elsewhere! 

 I think a lot of people would like to learn welsh but talking to people I think there's a lot of confusion as to whether it's "socially acceptable" to speak welsh in front of others, some people seem to think it might be rude, while others are just a bit embarassed to single themselves out as being a bit different. Personally, for my part I don't give a shit. It's my language and I'll speak it where the hell I like


----------



## Brockway (Nov 19, 2005)

> What would you argue were the classics of Welsh fiction? - and what do you think was omitted from the list?



Well Udo, I don't think the use of the term 'classic' (by Smith/the media) with regards this project is very helpful at all - otherwise they'd have to reprint _Under Milk Wood _ for the thousandth time. But I do find the notion of a buried or neglected literature very interesting. I would say that Dai Smith's list is quite Valleys-centric.

_My People _ by Caradoc Evans is a great book - soooooo nasty, very gothic, and highly original in its use of dialect. But I think it was reprinted not that long ago which is probably why it's not on there.

_Rhapsody_ by Dorothy Edwards is excellent although it owes more to nineteenth century Russian fiction than it does to Welsh life. Glad its getting a reprint mind as my Virago copy is falling to bits.

I'm not a fan of Gwyn Thomas but _The Dark Philosophers _ is quality and in my humble opinion he never wrote anything better than these 3 novellas.

Arthur Machen ought to be on there, he's criminally undervalued in Wales. He seems to have fallen between the cracks of Wales's twin ideologies: nationalist-oriented critics never liked him because he hated the Nonconformist church; and socialist-leaning critics have ignored him because he was a Tory. I would have collected some of his Welsh-set novellas and short stories.

I would also have put _The Dark Daughters _ by Rhys Davies on the list as it's a brilliant gothic novel, in beautiful restrained prose. And it contains an interesting cocaine-snorting scene. 

There are others which Dai Smith has probably never read like _Doctor Tonrondo_ by Owen Guinness (Guy Williams), the best Welsh comic novel of the twentieth century; _The Welsh Widow _ by Pauline Warwick (Betty Evelyn Davies), a romance that amidst the usual genre requirements of having to marry off all your children manages to incorporate an intelligent sub-plot on the fate of the Welsh language; and _Make Room for the Jester _ by Stead Jones which is a Welsh _Catcher in the Rye _ set in, of all places, Pwllheli.

I see no point in Raymond Williams, Emyr Humphries or Dylan Thomas being on the list (whatever their obvious literary merits) as none of them are either forgotten or neglected - not in critical terms anyway. As for Jack Jones, he's just pants.


----------



## neprimerimye (Nov 19, 2005)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> sorry but how does it make no sense .. it is like saying that the moment someone has something  stolen they lose interest in that thing!
> 
> the q. remains WHY are non cymraeg speakers not interested??
> 
> ...



The fact that I'm Welsh born and bred does not mean that Cymraeg was somehow stolen from me or from many others for that matter. For many of us Cymraeg is not a part of our heritage stolen or otherwise.

I agree that the historical reasons that gave rise to the decline of Welsh as the ormary language of the majority of the population retain some iportance. But past, or ecven the greatly lessened preent, discrimination against the use of Cymraeg is not a reason to become interested in it.

As for your point that much of the rest of the world is bi or multi-lingual I dispute strongly. In fact in capitalist China there is sytematic discrimination against speakers of non-Han dialects and languages. Similarly in France Breton and Basque suffered systematic discrimination far worse than that meted out to Welsh. This is deplorable but it does prove conclusively that the bourgeois state in britain was little different to similar bourgeois states elsewhere.


----------



## neprimerimye (Nov 19, 2005)

Redstar said:
			
		

> Welsh is part of the inheritance of ALL Welsh people regardless of where they come from. It's interesting to see that politically the only people who may share your opinion mate are the Tories in Cymru. Are you a Tory in disguise?
> 
> I think a lot of people would like to learn welsh but talking to people I think there's a lot of confusion as to whether it's "socially acceptable" to speak welsh in front of others, some people seem to think it might be rude, while others are just a bit embarassed to single themselves out as being a bit different. Personally, for my part I don't give a shit. It's my language and I'll speak it where the hell I like



To the best of my knowledge the Tories oppose a new Welsh Language Act. I have already expressed myself in favour of such a Bill. It follows that you have either misunderstood my comments or are an idiot.


----------



## lewislewis (Nov 19, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Absolutely correct. Now generalise the idea.
> 
> Without nationalists we would have no nations! What a better place this world would be.



Nations will always exist in some form or another (not necessarily as states, there are other kinds of national community that may emerge in the future) because people with something in common gravitate towards one another out of a sense of security.

I'd rather be Welsh than have a faceless 'global' identity.


----------



## neprimerimye (Nov 19, 2005)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> Nations will always exist in some form or another (not necessarily as states, there are other kinds of national community that may emerge in the future) because people with something in common gravitate towards one another out of a sense of security.
> 
> I'd rather be Welsh than have a faceless 'global' identity.



Nations have only existed for the last few hundred years. There is no reason to presume that an institution of such recent provenance need be permanent.


----------



## niclas (Nov 19, 2005)

neprimerimye: "A struggle that is sponsored and supported by the institutions of the British state!"

No. A 30-year struggle that saw many hundreds of people take direct action and go to jail for challenging the British state and winning concessions. Of course the state incorporates when it can - all those quangos are stuffed with former student radicals - but that doesn't mean the campaign for equal status for the Welsh language was not right.

neprimerimye: "Come on laddie"

Does anybody really speak like this?

neprimerimye: "Look we speak English, use English language media and think in English. "

There you go again... spokesman for an entire people. For someone disinterested in the Welsh language you seem to spend an awful lot of your time arguing about it.


----------



## nwnm (Nov 19, 2005)

"There you go again... spokesman for an entire people. For someone disinterested in the Welsh language you seem to spend an awful lot of your time arguing about it."

He has nothing better to do...Just put him on ignore (puts fingers in ears and sings 'TRA-LA-LA-LA' very loudly   )


----------



## Poi E (Nov 19, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> But past, or ecven the greatly lessened preent, discrimination against the use of Cymraeg is not a reason to become interested in it..



There's a real display of poverty of spirit about that sentence. Dour.


----------



## editor (Nov 19, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> For many of us Cymraeg is not a part of our heritage stolen or otherwise..


If you're Welsh, the language most certainly is part of your heritage - how can something that united the nation for nearly two thousand years _not_ be part of its heritage?


----------



## neprimerimye (Nov 19, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> If you're Welsh, the language most certainly is part of your heritage - how can something that united the nation for nearly two thousand years _not_ be part of its heritage?



Neither Cymraeg or a Welsh nation have existed for two thousand years.

I'm Welsh born and bred but that does not make the Welsh language any part of my heritage. Certainly not in terms of ancestry and the national heritage of Wales means nothing to me. Why should it?


----------



## neprimerimye (Nov 19, 2005)

niclas said:
			
		

> For someone disinterested in the Welsh language you seem to spend an awful lot of your time arguing about it.



Not in the least. My comments have only treated the history of Wales and the politics of culture, including language, in Wales. Not once have I discussed the merits of otherwise of Cymraeg itself.


----------



## editor (Nov 19, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Neither Cymraeg or a Welsh nation have existed for two thousand years.


"Many historians think of Wales as having begun its independent history around the time the Romans left Wales. This also happens to be the time the Welsh language developed out of the previous Britannic language..."

(The Welsh) "belong to a people who have inhabited the same piece of land for two thousand years. They have spoken a distinct language for most of that time..."

"Real Wales" by Heini Gruffudd.


----------



## editor (Nov 19, 2005)

And...


> In Britain, at least for a few hundred years after the Roman victories on mainland Europe, the Celts held on to much of their customs and especially to their distinctive language which has miraculously survived until today as Welsh.
> http://www.britannia.com/celtic/wales/eighthwonder/wonder2.html


----------



## neprimerimye (Nov 19, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> "Many historians think of Wales as having begun its independent history around the time the Romans left Wales. This also happens to be the time the Welsh language developed out of the previous Britannic language..."
> 
> (The Welsh) "belong to a people who have inhabited the same piece of land for two thousand years. They have spoken a distinct language for most of that time..."
> 
> "Real Wales" by Heini Gruffudd.



Romantic nonsense. I would suggest a reading of the Oxford history of Wales series for the views of serious academic historians. Davies more recent book, in both English and Cymraeg editions please note, or G A Williams always useful When Was Wales for more popular treatments.


----------



## Karac (Nov 19, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Romantic nonsense. I would suggest a reading of the Oxford history of Wales series for the views of serious academic historians. Davies more recent book, in both English and Cymraeg editions please note, or G A Williams always useful When Was Wales for more popular treatments.


Ive read both and its not romantic nonsense its historical fact.


----------



## Karac (Nov 19, 2005)

Poi E said:
			
		

> Lovely description.
> 
> The expansion of the teaching of Maori laid the groundwork for great change in New Zealand, politically and socially. I think the growth of a language causes not simply another means of communication but causes a shift in identity and motivation, too.


Any sources for this Poi E? Sounds interesting.


----------



## Redstar (Nov 20, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> The fact that I'm Welsh born and bred does not mean that Cymraeg was somehow stolen from me or from many others for that matter. For many of us Cymraeg is not a part of our heritage stolen or otherwise.
> 
> I agree that the historical reasons that gave rise to the decline of Welsh as the ormary language of the majority of the population retain some iportance. But past, or ecven the greatly lessened preent, discrimination against the use of Cymraeg is not a reason to become interested in it.
> 
> As for your point that much of the rest of the world is bi or multi-lingual I dispute strongly. In fact in capitalist China there is sytematic discrimination against speakers of non-Han dialects and languages. Similarly in France Breton and Basque suffered systematic discrimination far worse than that meted out to Welsh. This is deplorable but it does prove conclusively that the bourgeois state in britain was little different to similar bourgeois states elsewhere.



 Yes and let's not forget the "deplorable" treatment meted out by the former Soviet Union to the languages of nations such as Estonia, Latvia and lithuania to name but a few...all in the name of Communist ideology and the unity of the working class, of course...

 Happy days, eh nep?


----------



## neprimerimye (Nov 20, 2005)

Redstar said:
			
		

> Yes and let's not forget the "deplorable" treatment meted out by the former Soviet Union to the languages of nations such as Estonia, Latvia and lithuania to name but a few...all in the name of Communist ideology and the unity of the working class, of course...
> 
> Happy days, eh nep?



Forgive me for being a little slow but what has any of the above got to do with me?


----------



## lewislewis (Nov 20, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Nations have only existed for the last few hundred years. There is no reason to presume that an institution of such recent provenance need be permanent.



Maybe not in this incarnation as I said. But nations will exist in some communal form, the concept of 'Cymru' (the compatriots) has existed ever since the Saxons conquered modern-day England and we resisted, so we've had a nation for ages, just not in the modern form.


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## neprimerimye (Nov 20, 2005)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> Maybe not in this incarnation as I said. But nations will exist in some communal form, the concept of 'Cymru' (the compatriots) has existed ever since the Saxons conquered modern-day England and we resisted, so we've had a nation for ages, just not in the modern form.



No this just won't do lewislewis (so good they named him twice).

If you were to write that a Welsh people has had a continous existence since the shattering of the former Romano-Brthonic polity then I would happily agree with you. That is a statement of historical fact.

But you conflate the concept of nation with the concept people and that is illegitimate historically.

It's not a matter as you put it of the modern form of the Welsh nation developing from an older form it is a matter of the Welsh nation developing out of something that predates the modern concept of nation altogether. A difference not of form but of content.

As i have to keep saying on these boards this is not unique to Wales but can be generalised to all modern nations and the social groups they developed from. The problem as ever, from a certain perspective, is that all nations are sui generis. At least in the eyes of nationalists!


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## lewislewis (Nov 20, 2005)

The modern concept of a nation has nothing to do with this. I have never said that modern Wales existed in medieval times. 

A Welsh nation did. Pray tell me how it did not?


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## neprimerimye (Nov 20, 2005)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> The modern concept of a nation has nothing to do with this. I have never said that modern Wales existed in medieval times.
> 
> A Welsh nation did. Pray tell me how it did not?



There was a Welsh language and a Welsh people this we agree upon I hope. But the concept of nation simply did not exist in the 1400's.

The use of the term nation in the middle ages has more in common with peoples than the modern concept. This I think you will find is agreed on by serious historians of all political persuasions.

The exceptions being nationalist inclined historians and I'm not thinking of historians of Wales! I'm thnking more of the kind of rubbish who talk about the history of the USA and include pre-Columbine times in that category.


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## lewislewis (Nov 20, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> There was a Welsh language and a Welsh people this we agree upon I hope. But the concept of nation simply did not exist in the 1400's.
> 
> The use of the term nation in the middle ages has more in common with peoples than the modern concept. This I think you will find is agreed on by serious historians of all political persuasions.



Exactly! The concept of nation did exist, and in the middle ages nation meant people. I'm clearly right.


----------



## editor (Nov 20, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> There was a Welsh language and a Welsh people this we agree upon I hope. But the concept of nation simply did not exist in the 1400's.


The historian Dr John Davies seems to disagree:


> The urge to unity
> 
> The existence of Offa's Dyke perhaps deepened the self-awareness of the Welsh people. Within a generation of its construction, the greater part of the country's inhabitants became the subjects of a single ruler.
> 
> ...


----------



## neprimerimye (Nov 21, 2005)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> Exactly! The concept of nation did exist, and in the middle ages nation meant people. I'm clearly right.



You're clearly wrong. To repeat the concept of nation that we know did not exist in the 1400's. The word nation as used by Glyn Dwr was meant to designate the Welsh as one of the historic nations of Europe in the sense that the Romans used the term and in which sense it entered European political discourse.

It most certainly did not designate Wales or the Welsh as a nation in the modern socio-political sense. In any and all modern nations the entire citizenry is considered to belong to the given nation. This was not the case in either the Roman Empire, they did after all originate the word afaik, or anywhere in Europe during the middle ages. Those belonging to any given nation being limited by class/caste, property rights and many other factors.

I should also note that the term people was also used in a far more limited fashion and should not be taken to designate the entire population of any given country. It frequently designated only those people considered, to borrow a modern term, to be stake holders. That is to say a minority of the population.

Finally I suggest the editor reread davies he does not from my reading support the notion that Wales consituted a nation in the modern sense in the 14000's and the quotes reproduced here prove no such thing.


----------



## editor (Nov 21, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Finally I suggest the editor reread davies he does not from my reading support the notion that Wales consituted a nation in the modern sense in the 14000's and the quotes reproduced here prove no such thing.


You're the one that's introduced this "nation in the modern sense" king-size caveat, which is clearly an oxymoron if we're discussing ancient Wales.


----------



## lewislewis (Nov 21, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> You're clearly wrong. To repeat the concept of nation that we know did not exist in the 1400's. The word nation as used by Glyn Dwr was meant to designate the Welsh as one of the historic nations of Europe in the sense that the Romans used the term and in which sense it entered European political discourse.
> 
> It most certainly did not designate Wales or the Welsh as a nation in the modern socio-political sense. In any and all modern nations the entire citizenry is considered to belong to the given nation. This was not the case in either the Roman Empire, they did after all originate the word afaik, or anywhere in Europe during the middle ages. Those belonging to any given nation being limited by class/caste, property rights and many other factors.
> 
> ...



Why are you doing this? What is your problem? I've said at least twice now, that modern nations didn't exist in the middle ages- who could possibly think they did? How am i wrong? Or are you deliberately being a twpsyn.


----------



## Dai Sheep (Nov 21, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Good points but the argument concerning loss of culture doesn't have a lot of reality to may Welsh people. The fact is that for many of us none of our ancestors ever spoke Welsh and never shared in some mythical Welsh culture. English is our language and our cultural medium. Welsh is as foreign as Swahili.
> 
> Now mine is not a negative attitude towards your language but one of disinterest. Its not an attitude that looks down on Welsh either but one that has no interest in it. And thats an attitude that many Welsh people share total disinterest in your language.
> 
> ...



Im an English speaking Welshman - and you certainly dont speak for me. Im currently learning Welsh and know of many other people who wish to do so as well. So while there are obviously a lot of people who have no interest in the language, there are also a lot that do. So Dont claim to be spokesman for the majority. *To say that Welsh is as foreign as Swahili is utter horseshit*.

Throughout this thread you have tried to belittle Welsh history and Welsh nationalism to fit in with your Socialist beliefs, while at the same time coming across as arrogant, dogmatic and pretentious.


----------



## lewislewis (Nov 21, 2005)

Dai in his ideal world there will only be one culture, one language, one nation.


----------



## neprimerimye (Nov 21, 2005)

Dai Sheep said:
			
		

> Im an English speaking Welshman - and you certainly dont speak for me. Im currently learning Welsh and know of many other people who wish to do so as well. So while there are obviously a lot of people who have no interest in the language, there are also a lot that do. So Dont claim to be spokesman for the majority. *To say that Welsh is as foreign as Swahili is utter horseshit*.
> 
> Throughout this thread you have tried to belittle Welsh history and Welsh nationalism to fit in with your Socialist beliefs, while at the same time coming across as arrogant, dogmatic and pretentious.



If you attend a class in order to learn Welsh I suspect that you will meet others who wish to learn the language. Nonetheless the majority of English speaking Welsh people do not attend such classes. Perhaps this is bacause they do not wish to?

if you examine English and Welsh they are unrelated languages foreign to each other. So is Swahilli.

In no sense have I belittled the history of Wales. i do however disagree with the romantic nationalist interpretation of its history. If you don't like that tough.


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## lewislewis (Nov 21, 2005)

I disagree Nep, due to the geographical proximity of their use, Welsh and English are related by circumstance, especially in their modern forms where Welsh words have found their way into the English language, and vice versa. Obviously there's no linguistic relation, but the widespread use of Welsh and English bi-lingually in modern Wales kind of rubbishes your comparison of Cymraeg to Swahili.


----------



## editor (Nov 21, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> if you examine English and Welsh they are unrelated languages foreign to each other. So is Swahilli.


English speaking Welsh folks will still be using Welsh words in their daily life though, through place names and people's names and maybe the occasional Welsh word or phrase.

I don't think Swahili comes up much in day to day conversation in Wales.

Your 'argument' is woefully lacking in any substance.


----------



## nwnm (Nov 21, 2005)

"Welsh and English are related by circumstance, especially in their modern forms where Welsh words have found their way into the English language" There used to be a thread on here about this. Needless to say nep will probably use this post as proof that I have strayed from the path of true bolshevism and its proof of the degeneration of such and such a political party etc etc zzzzzzzzzzz. (Bloody Luxembergista!)

Something I was pleasantly surprised about was how young (and larger than previous ones) the Cymdeithas rally for a new Language Act was this year. And I'm sure I'm not the only person there who had to have people translate the speeches for me either.


----------



## lewislewis (Nov 21, 2005)

I applaud you for supporting a new Welsh language act whereas other Trots such as Nep would probably say it is unimportant and uncessary.


----------



## neprimerimye (Nov 21, 2005)

nwnm said:
			
		

> "Welsh and English are related by circumstance, especially in their modern forms where Welsh words have found their way into the English language" There used to be a thread on here about this. Needless to say nep will probably use this post as proof that I have strayed from the path of true bolshevism and its proof of the degeneration of such and such a political party etc etc zzzzzzzzzzz. (Bloody Luxembergista!)
> 
> Something I was pleasantly surprised about was how young (and larger than previous ones) the Cymdeithas rally for a new Language Act was this year. And I'm sure I'm not the only person there who had to have people translate the speeches for me either.



The last Bolshevik died in 1940 anyone claiming to be such now is a fantasist. So in answer to your idiotic remark I do not think you have strayed from some imaginary path of true Bolshevism. You were and remain politically a pabloite in my opinion.

For what its worth i have already made clear my position regarding a new Welsh Language Act.


----------



## niclas (Nov 21, 2005)

editor: "English speaking Welsh folks will still be using Welsh words in their daily life though, through place names and people's names and maybe the occasional Welsh word or phrase."

Test time... how many Welsh people (not the Welsh speakers) recognise:

Cymru
Diolch
Chwarae teg
Iechyd da
Hwyl
Llanelli 9 Seland Newydd 3
Cariad

And if we had a bit more of all that in our lives, we could all die happy...


----------



## editor (Nov 21, 2005)

niclas said:
			
		

> Test time... how many Welsh people (not the Welsh speakers) recognise:


The only one I wasn't immediately familiar with was Chwarae teg.

I still tend to call bread and butter 'bara menyn', milk 'llaeth' and instinctively exclaim "Ach-a-fi" for something horrible (anyone know the correct spelling?).

And of course, I use the word 'cwtch' almost every day!

So, for someone who was barely taught Welsh, I certainly still use a bit of the language. Definitely more than Swahili, that's for sure.


----------



## lewislewis (Nov 22, 2005)

niclas said:
			
		

> Test time... how many Welsh people (not the Welsh speakers) recognise:
> 
> Cymru
> Diolch
> ...



Wales, thankyou, fair play, cheers/good health, bye, llanelli 9 new zealand 3, beloved (?)

Yay for Welsh GCSE's at English-language state schools.


----------



## editor (Nov 22, 2005)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> beloved (?)


It's in the Oxford Dictionary now!


> cariad
> • noun Welsh darling; sweetheart: how's it going, cariad?
> — origin Welsh, ‘love’.
> 
> http://www.askoxford.com/worldofwords/newwords/?view=uk


----------



## Red Faction (Nov 22, 2005)

ill agree with the posts on pages 1-2 of this thread about welsh rugby
(cant be bothered trawling all the way through it)

went to the millenium stadium to see Munster thrash Neath  (pre-merger, one of their last games- the celtic cup final i think)

anyway as we were leaving there were loads of neath fans waiting outside with the black on white cross painted over their faces etc
bit intimidating really
why are there hundreds of THEM outside waiting for us?!!

anyway- they started shaking our hands and we all went for a piss up

i love going to the milennium stadium
only trouble is we dont win as many matches against you taffs as id like


----------



## Belushi (Nov 22, 2005)

> Munster thrash Neath


----------



## nwnm (Nov 22, 2005)

OK This is what I got

Cymru - Wales
Diolch - thanks
Chwarae teg - fair play (often used rarely given   )
Iechyd da - good health 
Hwyl - now this I thought was untranslatable. I thought the closest you could get was having great courage/spirit (silly me  )
Llanelli 9 Seland Newydd 3 - This threw me (not being a Llanelli fan) I thought new WTF - then remembered no Z in Welsh is there? 
Cariad - love/darling

Not bad for a Cardiffian eh?

Belushi 2 words - SIX NATIONS!


----------



## Belushi (Nov 22, 2005)

> Belushi 2 words - SIX NATIONS!



Aye!   

And dont forget Brawd - a welsh word which all the English monoglots used when I was a kid in the valleys.


----------



## editor (Nov 22, 2005)

nwnm said:
			
		

> Hwyl - now this I thought was untranslatable. I thought the closest you could get was having great courage/spirit (silly me  )


We always used it as 'farewell/bye'.


----------



## Ben Bore (Nov 22, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> We always used it as 'farewell/bye'.



'Hwyl' is literally fun
but is used for 'farwell/bye' as a short fersion of 'Hwyl fawr'
'Hwyl' is also is as a word for the craic in a Max Boyce tacky way

Other words that may be used

Twp
Twpsyn
Bach


----------



## Belushi (Nov 22, 2005)

> 'Hwyl' is literally fun



I thought Zeal was a closer translation?

(sadly I've lost nearly all the welsh I spoke as a lad)


----------



## Gentleman Taff (Nov 22, 2005)

Belushi said:
			
		

> I thought Zeal was a closer translation?
> 
> (sadly I've lost nearly all the welsh I spoke as a lad)



Maybe, could be translated as 'chutzpah'   

It is literally 'fun' (as in hwyl a spri - fun and games), but it's true it has a wider meaning, probably not directly translateable into English. (unless you consider the use of the word 'spunk'   - now there's a good occasion to use 'ych a fi' if ever I saw one)


----------



## niclas (Nov 22, 2005)

Spunk does often translate as fun, but not necessarily just in Welsh! Ych a fi indeed... 

Hwyl is a bizarre word - it can mean "sail" as on a yacht (cwch hwylio);
 it can mean (as has been said) that untranslatable craic/good time and it can be a "goodbye", which I like cos you're encouraging people to have fun.

Bet you can't do that in Swahili...


----------



## neprimerimye (Nov 22, 2005)

niclas said:
			
		

> Test time... how many Welsh people (not the Welsh speakers) recognise:
> 
> And if we had a bit more of all that in our lives, we could all die happy...



None of us will die happy. Most of us will die lying on gurneys in run down NHS hospitals hoping a distant relative will ask the nurse for more drugs.

I recognised all the Cymraeg but only understood four phrases. None of which will be any use when I need those drugs however!!

Whats the Welsh for 'can I have some morphine now?' Best be prepared for all eventualities like.


----------



## neprimerimye (Nov 22, 2005)

Belushi said:
			
		

> Isadly I've lost nearly all the welsh I spoke as a lad



I've lost all my Yoruba.


----------



## lewislewis (Nov 23, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> None of us will die happy. Most of us will die lying on gurneys in run down NHS hospitals hoping a distant relative will ask the nurse for more drugs.
> 
> I recognised all the Cymraeg but only understood four phrases. None of which will be any use when I need those drugs however!!
> 
> Whats the Welsh for 'can I have some morphine now?' Best be prepared for all eventualities like.



Edited- Unecessary.

Its all doom and gloom with Neprimerimye. I'd rather end my days in a nice efficient Scandinavian hospital, but of course we're never going to achieve that standard in Wales unless we break with the conservative, low-spending United Kingdom.


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## neprimerimye (Nov 24, 2005)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> Edited- Unecessary.
> 
> Its all doom and gloom with Neprimerimye. I'd rather end my days in a nice efficient Scandinavian hospital, but of course we're never going to achieve that standard in Wales unless we break with the conservative, low-spending United Kingdom.



I would rather end my days in the arms of       but it's rather unlikely I regret to say.

Btw I was reading an interesting article about cuts in the Swedish health service the other day.


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## nwnm (Nov 24, 2005)

"I'd rather end my days in a nice efficient Scandinavian hospital, but of course we're never going to achieve that standard in Wales unless we break with the conservative, low-spending United Kingdom." We could always have a go at overthrowing capitalism redistributing the wealth and investing our time/energy/money in providing the sevices people need instead. Personally, I don't want to die in any hospital bed. I'd either want to die in my sleep next to a nice warm barricade trying to acheive what I've just written about, or after having sex. What a nice way to go.....


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## niclas (Nov 24, 2005)

*Happiness is a warm Scandinavian*

Dontcha just love line breaks like this:

"I'd rather end my days in a nice efficient Scandinavian"

And so say all of us...


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## lewislewis (Nov 24, 2005)

nwnm said:
			
		

> "I'd rather end my days in a nice efficient Scandinavian hospital, but of course we're never going to achieve that standard in Wales unless we break with the conservative, low-spending United Kingdom." We could always have a go at overthrowing capitalism redistributing the wealth and investing our time/energy/money in providing the sevices people need instead. Personally, I don't want to die in any hospital bed. I'd either want to die in my sleep next to a nice warm barricade trying to acheive what I've just written about, or after having sex. What a nice way to go.....



Haha so true, but capitalism has never been succesfully overthrown, each time it has, something worse has resulted.

And Niclas- amen brother.


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## nwnm (Nov 25, 2005)

"capitalism has never been succesfully overthrown, each time it has, something worse has resulted." Good point. I'd elaborate it slightly differently though.  Capitalism has never been overthrown, and each time the Capitalist class re-assert themselves something worse has resulted. The 2 most obvious examples being Russia and Germany. 

In Russia ( at the time an economically backward country with a tiny working class) the revolution was Isolated and Strangled, and you effectively had a party ruling in the name of a working class that had been decimated in a civil war inspired by western imperialist forces. In that situation, (ie with no successful revolutions in advanced capitalist countries), it was only a matter of time before a growing beaurocracy would transform itself into a ruling class. 

In Germany the far left of the SPD did not break and set up their own independent organisation until it was too late, and their leaders were murdered. The workers revolts in Germany (complete with barricades) were squandered. The capitalist reaction ended in fascism - proving the old adage of Rosa Luxemburg correct "We face a choice - either Socialism or Barbarism"


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