# Two unarmed policewomen killed In Manchester shooting - Dale Cregan arrested



## editor (Sep 18, 2012)

I don't think Mr Cregan will enjoying a leisurely stroll in the Manchester air for some time.


> Two female police officers have died after being shot during an incident involving one of the country's most wanted men, Dale Cregan, in Manchester.
> Cregan, 29, was being sought in connection with separate gun and grenade attacks that killed a father and son.
> The officers, both female and unarmed, were injured as they attended what police have called a "routine incident" at Abbey Gardens in Hattersley, Greater Manchester, just before 11am.
> One officer died at the scene and the other died later in hospital.
> http://uk.news.yahoo.com/police-shot-during-murder-suspect-arrest-110704562.html


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## Pickman's model (Sep 18, 2012)

A brace of cops is certainly something unusual.


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## tommers (Sep 18, 2012)

He's turned himself in.


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## Pickman's model (Sep 18, 2012)

After a nice stroll no doubt


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## editor (Sep 18, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> but a brace of cops is certainly something unusual.


It wasn't a grouse hunt. It was two unarmed female cops being murdered by a coward.


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## Andrew Hertford (Sep 18, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> A brace of cops is certainly something unusual.


 
Still a complete twat I see.


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## Pickman's model (Sep 18, 2012)

editor said:


> It wasn't a grouse hunt. It was two unarmed female cops being murdered by a coward.


People get a brace of grouse, a brace of goals and a brace of cops. I don't know what the collective noun for dead cops is, but i'll use that instead in future.


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## editor (Sep 18, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> People get a brace of grouse, a brace of goals and a brace of cops. I don't know what the collective noun for dead cops is, but i'll use that instead in future.


You sound like you're getting off on the murder of two women. I'm sure you can't be that crass, so perhaps you might tell me: what's your opinion of these murders?


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## malatesta32 (Sep 18, 2012)

Andrew Hertford said:


> Still a complete twat I see.


 
bit harsh!


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## Pickman's model (Sep 18, 2012)

Andrew Hertford said:


> Still a complete twat I see.


have you nothing on topick to say?


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## cantsin (Sep 18, 2012)

editor said:


> It wasn't a grouse hunt. It was two unarmed female cops being murdered by a coward.


 
yet another Ed link to random crime followed by denouncement of the perps as "cowards " - caller, what is your point ?


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## malatesta32 (Sep 18, 2012)

editor said:


> You sound like you're getting off on the murder of two women. I'm sure you can't be that crass, so perhaps you might tell me: what's your opinion of these murders?


who is this cregan pickmans?


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## malatesta32 (Sep 18, 2012)

'Ash Rathband, whose police officer father David was shot and blinded by gun maniac Raoul Moat, called for police to be armed after today's killings.'
they already are arent they?


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## editor (Sep 18, 2012)

cantsin said:


> yet another Ed link to random crime followed by denouncement of the perps as "cowards " - caller, what is your point ?


I'm referring to the murder of two unarmed women by an armed man. If that's not cowardly perhaps you might explain what is. Thanks.


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## TitanSound (Sep 18, 2012)

Looks like they were investigating an empty house and this Cregan fella didn't like it too much as he was probably hiding in it. 

Fucking sad any way you look at it.


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## editor (Sep 18, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> 'Ash Rathband, whose police officer father David was shot and blinded by gun maniac Raoul Moat, called for police to be armed after today's killings.'
> they already are arent they?


Not routinely, no.


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## TitanSound (Sep 18, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> 'Ash Rathband, whose police officer father David was shot and blinded by gun maniac Raoul Moat, called for police to be armed after today's killings.'
> they already are arent they?


 
Knee jerk. Police should never be routinely armed in this country.


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## DotCommunist (Sep 18, 2012)

obligatory moat gag


serious though, i shouldn't imagine this man will ever get out of jail. I heard there was another murder which he was under investigation for? a non police murder


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## smokedout (Sep 18, 2012)

well they are armed, just not with guns


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## Pickman's model (Sep 18, 2012)

editor said:


> You sound like you're getting off on the murder of two women. I'm sure you can't be that crass, so perhaps you might tell me: what's your opinion of these murders?


This isn't the yorkshire ripper. They weren't shot because of their gender, they  were shot because of their job. I've never seen you bring up the sex of other shot cops. At least, not when they're men. I don't think their sex has anything to do with it, and in this day and age it's surprising you do. Do you think they should have been doing a different job this morning?


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## editor (Sep 18, 2012)

DotCommunist said:


> serious though, i shouldn't imagine this man will ever get out of jail. I heard there was another murder which he was under investigation for? a non police murder


He's accused of killing two other men, with hand grenades and automatic weapons involved in the murders.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-19249050


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## editor (Sep 18, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> This isn't the yorkshire ripper. They weren't shot because of their gender, they were shot because of their job. I've never seen you bring up the sex of other shot cops. At least, not when they're men. I don't think their sex has anything to do with it, and in this day and age it's surprising you do. Do you think they should have been doing a different job this morning?


You haven't answered my question.


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## Pickman's model (Sep 18, 2012)

editor said:


> You haven't answered my question.


Well spotted. Because as i've pointed out it's based on what I think's a false (and, incidentally, overly emotive) premise and therefore devoid of meaning.


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## cantsin (Sep 18, 2012)

editor said:


> I'm referring to the murder of two unarmed women by an armed man. If that's not cowardly perhaps you might explain what is. Thanks.


 
and last time it was motorbike robbers who had an iron bar who were ' cowards' - it's your board, you post up what you like, but just wondering what this new focus on alleged criminals being 'cowards' is about, what point you're trying to make ? 

As for whether it is cowardly or not,  as with the iron bar episode, I dont really see what you're getting at, would you have thought it braver if he'd attacked them without a gun ? Or if the motorbike thief had tried to punch the fuck of the shop assistant, no tools ? Would that have been more acceptable to you /less cowardly ? I dont really see these episodes in terms of who's cowardly/ or brave .


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## smokedout (Sep 18, 2012)

editor said:


> I'm referring to the murder of two unarmed women by an armed man. If that's not cowardly perhaps you might explain what is. Thanks.


 
was Harry Roberts a coward?

(or was he our friend)


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## spliff (Sep 18, 2012)

DotCommunist said:


> obligatory moat gag
> 
> 
> serious though, i shouldn't imagine this man will ever get out of jail. I heard there was another murder which he was under investigation for? a non police murder


Yeah he was on the run for killing a guy and some months later the guy's Dad, it has been suggested it was drug related.
He also used grenades as what I assumed to be a diversionary tactic.


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## spliff (Sep 18, 2012)

smokedout said:


> was Harry Roberts a coward?
> 
> (or was he our friend)


He was a fool.


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## editor (Sep 18, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> Well spotted. Because as i've pointed out it's based on what I think's a false (and, incidentally, overly emotive) premise and therefore devoid of meaning.


So now that you've pointed out that fascinating observation, I'll try again. What do you think of two unarmed humans being murdered by an armed human while they were doing their jobs? Or are they somehow less than human in your world because they happen to be cops? That's certainly the impression I seem to be getting here, with your use of the dehumanising phrase, "brace of cops."


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## editor (Sep 18, 2012)

smokedout said:


> was Harry Roberts a coward?
> 
> (or was he our friend)


Harry Roberts has nothing to do with this thread and he certainly wasn't my friend.


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## editor (Sep 18, 2012)

cantsin said:


> and last time it was motorbike robbers who had an iron bar who were ' cowards' - it's your board, you post up what you like, but just wondering what this new focus on alleged criminals being 'cowards' is about, what point you're trying to make ?


I'd call it cowardly to attack an unarmed worker with an iron bar. How about you?


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## malatesta32 (Sep 18, 2012)

spliff said:


> He was a fool.


 
he was the ray mears of his generation. but with murders.


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## smokedout (Sep 18, 2012)

its not very nice, but pulling off an armed robbery is anything but cowardly

i bet you wouldnt have the balls


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## editor (Sep 18, 2012)

smokedout said:


> its not very nice, but pulling off an armed robbery is anything but cowardly
> 
> i bet you wouldnt have the balls


Where was this armed robbery today?


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## tommers (Sep 18, 2012)

smokedout said:


> its not very nice, but pulling off an armed robbery is anything but cowardly
> 
> i bet you wouldnt have the balls


 

Come on.



> In 1959 Roberts and an accomplice posed as tax inspectors to gain entry into the home of an elderly man. Once inside the man was bound and robbed and beaten about the head with a glass decanter. When Roberts was captured and tried for the crime the judge, Mr. Justice Maude, said: "You are a brutal thug. You came very near the rope this time. It is to be hoped you do not appear before us again." Roberts received a sentence of seven years, and the victim - who never recovered from his injuries - died one year and three days after the attack. Had he died two days earlier, Roberts would have been tried for his murder.[11]


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## editor (Sep 18, 2012)

tommers said:


> Come on.


Indeed. I can see that two guys beating up an elderly man must have taken_ real_ balls.


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## cantsin (Sep 18, 2012)

editor said:


> I'd call it cowardly to attack an unarmed worker with an iron bar. How about you?


 
the motorbike robbers didnt attack anyone with the bar, as you know


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## smokedout (Sep 18, 2012)

editor said:


> Where was this armed robbery today?


 
same applies to shooting coppers, whatever you might think of it, its actually a pretty brave thing to do

id be too scared


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## Firky (Sep 18, 2012)

smokedout said:


> same applies to shooting coppers, whatever you might think of it, its actually a pretty brave thing to do
> 
> id be too scared


 
You've got a pretty fucked up sense of bravery.


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## smokedout (Sep 18, 2012)

no, i just dont attach a moral judgement to the word


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## gabi (Sep 18, 2012)

smokedout said:


> same applies to shooting coppers, whatever you might think of it, its actually a pretty brave thing to do
> 
> id be too scared


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## Firky (Sep 18, 2012)

smokedout said:


> no, i just dont attach a moral judgement to the word


 
What has that got to do with bravery?

You're effectively saying the only thing that is stopping you from doing the same is being too scared.

What is bravery, smokedout?


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## Fedayn (Sep 18, 2012)

One of the effects of this is how the recent expose of a section of the police being utterly rotten and corrupt SYP/The Met will now be viewed through a media/politician created lens of the police as heroes. The comments that Cameron spouted the other day about how the cover up was a dis-service to the police themselves will be again re-inforced. The propaganda machine will crank up and the exposed lies of the past week will have a new battle to fight....


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## spliff (Sep 18, 2012)

smokedout said:


> same applies to shooting coppers, whatever you might think of it, its actually a pretty brave thing to do


No it's not.
It's a panicky thing to do. Which is probably why, in today's case, he went and handed himself in, because he knew he just fucked up big time.


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## smokedout (Sep 18, 2012)

firky said:


> What has that got to do with bravery?
> 
> You're effectively saying the only thing that is stopping you from doing the same is being too scared.


 
I'm not saying that at all.

If bravery is synonomous with courage then it could mean "The state or quality of mind or spirit that enables one to face danger, fear, or vicissitudes with self-possession, confidence, and resolution"

nothing moral about it, thats why constantly claiming things like this are cowardly is daft


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## Firky (Sep 18, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> One of the effects of this is how the recent expose of a section of the police being utterly rotten and corrupt SYP/The Met will now be viewed through a media/politician created lens of the police as heroes. The comments that Cameron spouted the other day about how the cover up was a dis-service to the police themselves will be again re-inforced. The propaganda machine will crank up and the exposed lies of the past week will have a new battle to fight....


 
How many Chief Constable's has Cumrbia gone through recently, three, four? All of them discharged for gross-misconduct and there seems very little coverage on it.


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## ViolentPanda (Sep 18, 2012)

editor said:


> So now that you've pointed out that fascinating observation, I'll try again. What do you think of two unarmed humans being murdered by an armed human while they were doing their jobs? Or are they somehow less than human in your world because they happen to be cops? That's certainly the impression I seem to be getting here, with your use of the dehumanising phrase, "brace of cops."


 
"Brace" just means "pair", unless you're a huntin' and shootin' toff (or Spymaster).


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## Firky (Sep 18, 2012)

smokedout said:


> If bravery is synonomous with courage then it could mean "The state or quality of mind or spirit that enables one to face danger, fear, or vicissitudes with self-possession, confidence, and resolution"


 
I asked what bravery was to you, not what it says in the dictionary. Never mind.

You know what would have been brave? Walking into a police station, handing himself and the gun in.


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## editor (Sep 18, 2012)

cantsin said:


> the motorbike robbers didnt attack anyone with the bar, as you know


You can see one of the guys running at one of the workers with an iron bar at 1:50 in the video, and then a passer by gets run at 2:07 and finally a metal bar is thrown at the workers. 

http://inspectorgadget.wordpress.com/2012/09/09/people-power-at-ducati-croydon/


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## Crispy (Sep 18, 2012)

firky said:


> What is bravery?


Overcoming fear.
Bravery and cowardice are just about overcoming or succumbing to fear, outside of any context.

Meanwhile,on the topic, shooting dead unarmed people is for cunts.


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## editor (Sep 18, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> "Brace" just means "pair", unless you're a huntin' and shootin' toff (or Spymaster).


Used often to describe two police  murders, is it?


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## smokedout (Sep 18, 2012)

firky said:


> I asked what bravery was to you, not what it says in the dictionary. Never mind.
> 
> You know what would have been brave? Walking into a police station, handing himself and the gun in.


 
I agree with the dictionary


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## Firky (Sep 18, 2012)

Crispy said:


> Overcoming fear.
> Bravery and cowardice are just about overcoming or succumbing to fear, outside of any context.


 
Precisely. In this case he did not over come his fear but succumb to it.


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## smokedout (Sep 18, 2012)

how do you know?


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## Firky (Sep 18, 2012)

smokedout said:


> how do you know?


 
Are you really this thick or is it an act?

I'll give you a clue. It's in the title.


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## tommers (Sep 18, 2012)

Crispy said:


> Overcoming fear.
> Bravery and cowardice are just about overcoming or succumbing to fear, outside of any context.
> 
> Meanwhile,on the topic, shooting dead unarmed people is for cunts.


 
Succumbing to fear by panicking and shooting 2 police officers you mean?  A rational decision would be to try to escape, or let yourself be arrested.  That's what you would do if you weren't panicking.

You kill 2 police officers and you are in prison for ever.  As our already raised friend Harry Roberts shows.


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## ViolentPanda (Sep 18, 2012)

editor said:


> Used often to describe two police murders, is it?


 
Whether it is "used often" or not is irrelevant. The word still only means "pair", whatever emotional spin you care to put on the context the word was used in.

Let's be plain. Murdering a pair of people, police officers or not, is loathsome, but going off on one because you *assume* that someone using the word "brace" is implying some kind of grouse hunt-type exercise is plain emotive bollocks on your part.


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## spliff (Sep 18, 2012)

Forget the 'brace' thing Ed. It's not worth pursuing.


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## DotCommunist (Sep 18, 2012)

speculation. He might have just though 'if i'm getting lifed off anyway I'll take two coppers down as well


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## ViolentPanda (Sep 18, 2012)

smokedout said:


> how do you know?


 
Because anyone acting in a rational but instrumental manner wouldn't have drawn attention to themselves by murdering two people, especially not via a method that's quite loud. A sensible person would have attempted to leave the scene, not to "engage the enemy".


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## GarfieldLeChat (Sep 18, 2012)

firky said:


> What has that got to do with bravery?
> 
> You're effectively saying the only thing that is stopping you from doing the same is being too scared.
> 
> What is bravery, smokedout?


no he's saying to take on the police at the level of shooting them know the consequences of this has to be a brave decision, or a foolish one (he's not said this however that's the alternative) as the consequences are in effect suicide by police... to knowingly do this therefore is a brave course of action...


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## agricola (Sep 18, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> One of the effects of this is how the recent expose of a section of the police being utterly rotten and corrupt SYP/The Met will now be viewed through a media/politician created lens of the police as heroes. The comments that Cameron spouted the other day about how the cover up was a dis-service to the police themselves will be again re-inforced. The propaganda machine will crank up and the exposed lies of the past week will have a new battle to fight....


 
Perhaps, though of course it is as likely that people - even the media - can accept that the SYP behaved disgracefully over Hillsborough, the Met behaved abysmally over Harwood, Cameron behaved hypocritically over respecting the police, and these two officers behaved heroically in this incident without any one standpoint dominating the others.

RIP


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## smokedout (Sep 18, 2012)

I think its probably possible to be brave and foolish at the same time


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## GarfieldLeChat (Sep 18, 2012)

firky said:


> Precisely. In this case he did not over come his fear but succumb to it.


you've no proof of this tbf... 

that's an assumption, far more of one than to say that he was brave to have taken the actions as it assumes his motivations where as the other merely assumes he's aware of the consequences of his actions... 

still good job robin pulling batman back from the brink well done...


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## GarfieldLeChat (Sep 18, 2012)

smokedout said:


> I think its probably possible to be brave and foolish at the same time


I'm not sure they can be one and the same.  brave is aware of the consequences foolish is oblivious to them iygwim (I'm sure robin and batman won't...)


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## tommers (Sep 18, 2012)

And of course, it doesn't really matter.


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## agricola (Sep 18, 2012)

GarfieldLeChat said:


> I'm not sure they can be one and the same. brave is aware of the consequences foolish is oblivious to them iygwim (I'm sure robin and batman won't...)


 
I suppose it all depends on the point of view, garf.


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## smokedout (Sep 18, 2012)

charge of the light brigade - brave, foolish or both?


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## Firky (Sep 18, 2012)

smokedout said:


> charge of the light brigade - brave, foolish or both?


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## tommers (Sep 18, 2012)

smokedout said:


> charge of the light brigade - brave, foolish or both?


 
Brave of the chargers.

Foolish of the officers.


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## agricola (Sep 18, 2012)

smokedout said:


> charge of the light brigade - brave, foolish or both?


 
That was more of a mistake followed by bad luck, compounded by idiocy.


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## GarfieldLeChat (Sep 18, 2012)

tommers said:


> Brave of the chargers.
> 
> Foolish of the officers.


correct.


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## GarfieldLeChat (Sep 18, 2012)

agricola said:


> I suppose it all depends on the point of view, garf.


I think you can be brave and deluded raoul moat for example brave in taking the action he knew would get him killed and deluded because he thought this would resolve his issues with his ex and the police... 

but not brave and foolish like you can't be good bad or sinner saint there at opposite ends of the spectrum...

still as tommers said not relevant, just a tangent of batmans to derail...

has he been caught?


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## Fedayn (Sep 18, 2012)

agricola said:


> Perhaps, though of course it is as likely that people - even the media - can accept that the SYP behaved disgracefully over Hillsborough, the Met behaved abysmally over Harwood, Cameron behaved hypocritically over respecting the police, and these two officers behaved heroically in this incident without any one standpoint dominating the others.
> 
> RIP


 
Ordinary people may well differntiate, the m,edia however, the red tops/Mail/Express especially will use it to try and keep the anger at bay. Theyn have done it time after time, no reason or evidence to suggest they will do any different this time.


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## smokedout (Sep 18, 2012)

tommers said:


> And of course, it doesn't really matter.


 
it matters a bit because tabloid crap like calling every criminal cowardly distorts any meaningful discussion about what took place, motivations etc - it present a simplistic view of the world that tends to expand beyond the reach of more clear cut moral situations like this one


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## Firky (Sep 18, 2012)

smokedout said:


> it matters a bit because tabloid crap like calling every criminal cowardly distorts any meaningful discussion about what took place, motivations etc - it present a simplistic view of the world that tends to expand beyond the reach of more clear cut moral situations like this one


 
I agree with that.

Can't see it happening though.


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## GarfieldLeChat (Sep 18, 2012)

agricola said:


> Perhaps, though of course it is as likely that people - even the media - can accept that the SYP behaved disgracefully over Hillsborough, the Met behaved abysmally over Harwood, Cameron behaved hypocritically over respecting the police, and these two officers behaved heroically in this incident without any one standpoint dominating the others.
> 
> RIP


would they have been more or less heroic if they had been members of the public not coppers in your mind... 

we've no idea if they were behaving heroically and this is pure conjecture on your part...


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## smokedout (Sep 18, 2012)

yep, its not fucking toy town, most some coppers are cowardly slime and some villains are brave and charismatic, attempting to avoid this awkward fact by turning them into cartoon baddies doesn't change it


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## Firky (Sep 18, 2012)

Not trying to start an argument with you or anything, but would you say that the two WPCs were brave?


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## agricola (Sep 18, 2012)

GarfieldLeChat said:


> would they have been more or less heroic if they had been members of the public not coppers in your mind...
> 
> we've no idea if they were behaving heroically and this is pure conjecture on your part...


 
er- as heroic, and since when did you oppose "pure conjecture"?


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## smokedout (Sep 18, 2012)

firky said:


> Not trying to start an argument with you or anything, but would you say that the two WPCs were brave?


 
I don't know, but theres nothing intrinsic in what happened that means they were brave just because they got shot


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## editor (Sep 18, 2012)

smokedout said:


> I don't know, but theres nothing intrinsic in what happened that means they were brave just because they got shot


But I'd suggest that their job regularly puts them in more dangerous situations than, say, your job.


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## spliff (Sep 18, 2012)

smokedout said:


> I don't know, but theres nothing intrinsic in what happened that means they were brave just because they got shot


They will be described as such in tomorrows papers I guarantee it.
There's nothing brave about being a victim.


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## GarfieldLeChat (Sep 18, 2012)

agricola said:


> er- as heroic, and since when did you oppose "pure conjecture"?


when it attaches spurious unfounded labels to things actions or people...


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## smokedout (Sep 18, 2012)

editor said:


> But I'd suggest that their job regularly puts them in more dangerous situations than, say, your job.


 
so are coppers braver than firefighters, squaddies, bouncers, bailiffs, scaffolders? most people who dont sit at a computer all day experience a degree of risk at work


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## smokedout (Sep 18, 2012)

editor said:


> But I'd suggest that their job regularly puts them in more dangerous situations than, say, your job.


 
You could say the same about sean cregan


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## malatesta32 (Sep 18, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> "Brace" just means "pair", unless you're a huntin' and shootin' toff (or Spymaster).


 
so how many is a pair of braces?????? i gotta say i use the word brace as meaning two as in 'a brace of sausages,' 'a brace of ales' etc.


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## editor (Sep 18, 2012)

smokedout said:


> so are coppers braver than firefighters, squaddies, bouncers, bailiffs, scaffolders? most people who dont sit at a computer all day experience a degree of risk at work


I didn't realise I was expected to produce a Risk-o-Meter. I'm simply acknowledging that some officers will face dangerous situations during the course of their work, and some elements of what some may describe as 'bravery' may be shown at certain times.


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## editor (Sep 18, 2012)

smokedout said:


> You could say the same about sean cregan


I didn't realise killing cops, throwing grenades and murdering people was his profession.


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## agricola (Sep 18, 2012)

GarfieldLeChat said:


> when it attaches spurious unfounded labels to things actions or people...


 
Sorry, having read many of your posts I thought you favoured a pure-conjecture based approach to your argument.




			
				smokedout said:
			
		

> so are coppers braver than firefighters, squaddies, bouncers, bailiffs, scaffolders? most people who dont sit at a computer all day experience a degree of risk at work


 
Which is true, of course when firefighters and squaddies die in the line of duty its often said that they were brave.


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## Mrs Magpie (Sep 18, 2012)

I think this is a dreadful thing to happen and from what little I can gather (I may be completely wrong) it seems like an ambush


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## smokedout (Sep 18, 2012)

editor said:


> I didn't realise I was expected to produce a Risk-o-Meter. I'm simply acknowledging that some officers will face dangerous situations during the course of their work, and some elements of what some may describe as 'bravery' may be shown at certain times.


 
like everyone else then


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## malatesta32 (Sep 18, 2012)

GarfieldLeChat said:


> I think you can be brave and deluded raoul moat for example brave in taking the action he knew would get him killed and deluded because he thought this would resolve his issues with his ex and the police...
> 
> but not brave and foolish like you can't be good bad or sinner saint there at opposite ends of the spectrum...
> 
> ...


 
ive had this argument with a brace of folk about forumal 1 and how brave they are. they do take risks with their own lives but for vast sums o' cash, braces of millions some of em, but it totally lacks a moral dimension. there is the park near st pauls commemorating folk who have died saving others. is that a good example of bravery, selflesness? moat was just a steroidal maniac who thought he was in a kecking movie.


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## agricola (Sep 18, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> I think this is a dreadful thing to happen and from what little I can gather (I may be completely wrong) it seems like an ambush


 
Perhaps, though from some of the reports it sounds more like there was a call to a suspects on premises, they attended and then found Cregan inside.

Press conference on now, apparently a firearm and a grenade was used.  The officers were 32 and 26.


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## editor (Sep 18, 2012)

smokedout said:


> like everyone else then


What acts of bravery are involved in your everyday job?


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## malatesta32 (Sep 18, 2012)

it is the act that demonstrates bravery as we sometimes act well and sometimes act poorly. is it not a temporary status?


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## smokedout (Sep 18, 2012)

editor said:


> What acts of bravery are involved in your everyday job?


 
at the moment very little because i dont have much of a job, but I dont really see that what job you do is a definition of how brave you are, working on a building site is more dangerous than being a copper but i didnt think i was especially brave when i did that


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## Balbi (Sep 18, 2012)

Firearm and grenade used to kill two officers. Thanks to gun control laws, this event is rare. Arming officers means that criminals will be more likely to be armed. Let's not go down that road. I feel sorry for their families and friends, when a simple  routine check leads to this.


----------



## agricola (Sep 18, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> I think this is a dreadful thing to happen and from what little I can gather (I may be completely wrong) it seems like an ambush


 
You are right, at least based on what the Chief Constable is saying - apparently either Cregan or someone with him made the call that led the officers to their deaths.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 18, 2012)

editor said:


> So now that you've pointed out that fascinating observation, I'll try again. What do you think of two unarmed humans being murdered by an armed human while they were doing their jobs? Or are they somehow less than human in your world because they happen to be cops? That's certainly the impression I seem to be getting here, with your use of the dehumanising phrase, "brace of cops."


What do you want me to say, my opinion of the murder - of which my knowledge is insufficient to offer an aesthetic opinion - or what I think in the abstract of double murders?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 18, 2012)

editor said:


> What acts of bravery are involved in your everyday job?


Define 'bravery'


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 18, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> One of the effects of this is how the recent expose of a section of the police being utterly rotten and corrupt SYP/The Met will now be viewed through a media/politician created lens of the police as heroes. The comments that Cameron spouted the other day about how the cover up was a dis-service to the police themselves will be again re-inforced. The propaganda machine will crank up and the exposed lies of the past week will have a new battle to fight....


The police have an unusual ability tho to fuck things up. And with the possibility of a humiliating inquiry into the met it's not like this will be long in the waiting: plus the cops will likely kill someone else before the end of the year.


----------



## Firky (Sep 18, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> Define 'bravery'


 
Shooting dead two unarmed coppers by all accounts.

Should have settled for kneecaps.


----------



## editor (Sep 18, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> What do you want me to say, my opinion of the murder - of which my knowledge is insufficient to offer an aesthetic opinion - or what I think in the abstract of double murders?


I wish you had the honesty to actually say what you mean instead of posting up all this tedious wriggling bullshit. Have the courage of your convictions, ffs.


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 18, 2012)

bit hard to kneecap accurtely with a grenade I'd have thought


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 18, 2012)

editor said:


> I wish you had the honesty to actually say what you mean instead of posting up all this tedious wriggling bullshit. Have the courage of your convictions, ffs.


Don't blame me for your inability to ask a meaningful question.


----------



## editor (Sep 18, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> Don't blame me for your inability to ask a meaningful question.


Grow a pair, ffs.


----------



## articul8 (Sep 18, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> What do you want me to say, my opinion of the murder - of which my knowledge is insufficient to offer an *aesthetic* opinion


 shouldn't that be ethical?  No-one's asking for it to be rated as piece of street theatre


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 18, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> to offer an aesthetic opinion -?


 
wtf?


----------



## Firky (Sep 18, 2012)

Pickman's likes to express himself through the medium of modern dance. Think of him as the working man's rudolf nureyev.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 18, 2012)

editor said:
			
		

> But I'd suggest that their job regularly puts them in more dangerous situations than, say, your job.



Construction work yields more fatalities than the old bill does. Not as widely reported though.


----------



## xes (Sep 18, 2012)

Looks like he called the police himself to the scene, and then shot them.


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 18, 2012)

xes said:


> Looks like he called the police himself to the scene, and then shot them.


 

which leads me to think my earlier speculation was correct. He knew he was getting lifed off for those other murders so decided to take a pair of police out while he was there.

we'll see.


----------



## Andrew Hertford (Sep 18, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> What do you want me to say, my opinion of the murder - of which my knowledge is insufficient to offer an aesthetic opinion - or what I think in the abstract of double murders?


 
Couldn't you just once acknowledge that this was a nasty and vicious murder carried out against two innocent people?


----------



## spliff (Sep 18, 2012)

editor said:


> Grow a pair, ffs.


Slightly macho/misogynistic methinks.


----------



## editor (Sep 18, 2012)

spliff said:


> Slightly macho/misogynistic methinks.


Wow. That's some pretty desperate extrapolation there.
It means: "To be brave; to show some courage, especially in a situation in which one has so far failed to do so" and that is exactly what I am imploring Pickmans to do.


----------



## editor (Sep 18, 2012)

articul8 said:


> shouldn't that be ethical? No-one's asking for it to be rated as piece of street theatre


Who knows what he's on about?


----------



## articul8 (Sep 18, 2012)

> grow a pair


It means grow a pair of cojones, testes etc. - ie you are questioning his masculinity


----------



## smokedout (Sep 18, 2012)

actually it implies that someone without courage has no testicles, like a girl


----------



## spliff (Sep 18, 2012)

editor said:


> Wow. That's some pretty desperate extrapolation there.
> It means: "To be brave; to show some courage, especially in a situation in which one has so far failed to do so" and that is exactly what I am imploring Pickmans to do.


" A taunt yelled at someone to let them know they are being a pussy and for them to get on with whatever they are afraid to do.
Meaning to use the manly powers of a ballsack for courage"


----------



## Lock&Light (Sep 18, 2012)

GarfieldLeChat said:


> no he's saying to take on the police at the level of shooting them know the consequences of this has to be a brave decision, or a foolish one (he's not said this however that's the alternative) as the consequences are in effect suicide by police... to knowingly do this therefore is a brave course of action...


 
Not surprisingly that's a load of bull-shit.


----------



## editor (Sep 18, 2012)

spliff said:


> " A taunt yelled at someone to let them know they are being a pussy and for them to get on with whatever they are afraid to do.
> Meaning to use the manly powers of a ballsack for courage"


Fuck knows where you're getting that from, but I've already given you the meaning I was applying to the phrase, and that's the one I'm sticking with thanks.


----------



## editor (Sep 18, 2012)

articul8 said:


> It means grow a pair of cojones, testes etc. - ie you are questioning his masculinity


Actually, I was questioning his ability to answer a question directly or honestly, but if you like, I'll reword the question to:

"Please answer the question directly Pickmans because your continuing evasion is proving very frustrating and suggests that you haven't the courage of your convictions".

How's that? Can we move on now?


----------



## Lemon Eddy (Sep 18, 2012)

I have nothing but contempt for a person who sets an ambush knowing that the responders will be unarmed strangers.  Anyone who feels such an act is brave or otherwise laudable is a complete cunt.  Feel free to replace cunt with arsehole, penis or any other insult if you view it as sexist.

The boy wants to be some fucking hero - call the police, tell them you're armed and waiting for them.  Do your cowboy shit.  This?  Just fucking craven.  Cancer is too nice an end for such a wanker.


----------



## maldwyn (Sep 18, 2012)

Tragic incident but please must we have the same old rent-a-gobs being wheeled out all over the media - I really don't care what Boris Johnson, Paddick think on the matter.


----------



## spliff (Sep 18, 2012)

Lemon Eddy said:


> I have nothing but contempt for a person who sets an ambush knowing that the responders will be unarmed strangers. Anyone who feels such an act is brave or otherwise laudable is a complete cunt. Feel free to replace cunt with arsehole, penis or any other insult if you view it as sexist.


I would be vary wary of accepting any statements the police issue in the next couple of days.
There may be an arse protecting spin going on.


----------



## spliff (Sep 18, 2012)

editor said:


> "Please answer the question directly Pickmans because your continuing evasion is proving very frustrating and suggests that you haven't the courage of your convictions".


That's a lot better, and less footbally.


----------



## malatesta32 (Sep 18, 2012)

spliff said:


> That's a lot better, and less footbally.


 
i believe afficionados call it 'soccer'!


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 18, 2012)

You're not familiar with the book murder considered as one of the fine arts (iirc) by yer man who wrote confessions of an english opium eater





firky said:


> Pickman's likes to express himself through the medium of modern dance. Think of him as the working man's rudolf nureyev.


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Sep 18, 2012)

editor said:


> How's that? Can we move on now?


 
no clearly you can't...

if you're mindless pedantry is acceptable why is others picking you up on your phrasing not... dubious, double standards, batman... ask robin to back you up eh maybe he can provide some substance to your grievance...


----------



## Part 2 (Sep 18, 2012)

spliff said:


> I would be vary wary of accepting any statements the police issue in the next couple of days.
> There may be an arse protecting spin going on.


 
Yes, this. They've been spending £150k a day on a hunt and hadn't a clue where he was. They definitely didn't think he was this close.


----------



## editor (Sep 18, 2012)

spliff said:


> I would be vary wary of accepting any statements the police issue in the next couple of days.
> There may be an arse protecting spin going on.


How about an eye witness testimony?


> The BBC's North of England reporter Danny Savage said he had spoken to an eyewitness who said they saw a police car outside shortly after 10:15 BST.
> 
> "After that car had drawn up it seems that the two unarmed police officers inside the car went into the property which had stood empty for some months," he said.
> 
> ...


----------



## articul8 (Sep 18, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> You're not familiar with the book murder considered as one of the fine arts (iirc) by yer man who wrote confessions of an english opium eater


 ah


> satirical account of an address made to a gentleman's club concerning the aesthetic appreciation of murder


 
So many of your posts smack of the gentlemens club


----------



## Part 2 (Sep 18, 2012)

editor said:


> How about an eye witness testimony?


 
There's no witness suggesting it was an ambush is there?


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 18, 2012)

Chip Barm said:


> Yes, this. They've been spending £150k a day on a hunt and hadn't a clue where he was. They definitely didn't think he was this close.


 
not much compared to how much it cost to catch moaty


----------



## agricola (Sep 18, 2012)

spliff said:


> I would be vary wary of accepting any statements the police issue in the next couple of days.
> There may be an arse protecting spin going on.


 
Perhaps, though if there was absolutely any hint that he would be there those officers would not have been sent - as Chip Barm states, there was a huge and ongoing search for him - and the Chief Constable was fairly emphatic that there wasnt any reason for those officers to believe he would be there.


----------



## agricola (Sep 18, 2012)

Chip Barm said:


> There's no witness suggesting it was an ambush is there?


 
There may be the phone that was used, and/or a recording of him making the call.


----------



## editor (Sep 18, 2012)

Chip Barm said:


> There's no witness suggesting it was an ambush is there?


Sorry, what is your point here?


----------



## Part 2 (Sep 18, 2012)

editor said:


> Sorry, what is your point here?


 
I took spliff's comment to be a response to Lemon Eddy's about the police belief that it may have been an ambush. I may be wrong.


----------



## silverfish (Sep 18, 2012)

spliff said:


> That's a lot better, and less footbally.


 
Ah football followers are all misogynistic macho wanker blokes


----------



## editor (Sep 18, 2012)

silverfish said:


> Ah football followers are all misogynistic macho wanker blokes


That's a very good point, but maybe we should try and keep this about the rather more important topic in the thread title?


----------



## Part 2 (Sep 18, 2012)

agricola said:


> There may be the phone that was used, and/or a recording of him making the call.


 
I should've been more specific. Eye witness was what Ed said.

Interestingly though word on the streets the other week was that the other fella who was arrested did a deal with a mate to shop him for the £50k reward.


----------



## silverfish (Sep 18, 2012)

editor said:


> That's a very good point, but maybe we should try and keep this about the rather more important topic in the thread title?


 
Good luck with that


----------



## Lock&Light (Sep 18, 2012)

Some of Urban's cop-haters are having a field-day on this thread, showing themselves up for what they are. None so much as Pickman's Model.


----------



## treelover (Sep 18, 2012)

maldwyn said:


> Tragic incident but please must we have the same old rent-a-gobs being wheeled out all over the media - I really don't care what Boris Johnson, Paddick think on the matter.


 

Why are they consulting Johnson?, this was in Manchester...


----------



## bignose1 (Sep 18, 2012)

smokedout said:


> its not very nice, but pulling off an armed robbery is anything but cowardly
> 
> i bet you wouldnt have the balls


Really


----------



## spliff (Sep 18, 2012)

editor said:


> How about an eye witness testimony?


You're right boss, believe everything they say. From the India House siege in the 70's through Hillsborough to Tomlinson and many others along the way.
I'm just saying be wary.


----------



## editor (Sep 18, 2012)

spliff said:


> You're right boss, believe everything they say. From the India House siege in the 70's through Hillsborough to Tomlinson and many others along the way.
> I'm just saying be wary.


Fuck's sake. Why are you being such a gnarly arse here?
It was the eye witness testimony that made sure that the real story of what happened to Tomlinson got out.


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 18, 2012)

Chip Barm said:


> I should've been more specific. Eye witness was what Ed said.
> 
> Interestingly though word on the streets the other week was that the other fella who was arrested did a deal with a mate to shop him for the £50k reward.


 
Must be a big street .This is in Tameside no where near you.


----------



## spliff (Sep 18, 2012)

editor said:


> Fuck's sake. Why are you being such a gnarly arse here?
> It was the eye witness testimony that made sure that the real story of what happened to Tomlinson got out.


 
I'm just saying that in the first few hours or days the story can be spun. Tomlinson died because protesters were pelting the police trying to help him with bottles until the video came out.


----------



## Part 2 (Sep 18, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> Must be a big street .This is in Tameside no where near you.


 
Some of us venture out of the streets we live in. You should try it.

And the fella was arrested in a park in Openshaw which isn't Tamside, so ner.


----------



## bignose1 (Sep 18, 2012)

Chip Barm said:


> Yes, this. They've been spending £150k a day on a hunt and hadn't a clue where he was. They definitely didn't think he was this close.


Where was he captured?............exactly!!


----------



## bignose1 (Sep 18, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Where was he captured?............exactly!!


I was told it was 'Hyde' but now been informed it was up the road in Hattersley which kinda makes the irony in the name redundant.


----------



## spliff (Sep 18, 2012)

In a police station.


----------



## Part 2 (Sep 18, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> I was told it was 'Hyde' but now been informed it was up the road in Hattersley which kinda makes the irony in the name redundant.


 
He handed himself into Hyde  copshop I read.


----------



## weltweit (Sep 18, 2012)

Dale Cregan sounds like a right arsehole, hope he gets life inside, meaning "until dead".


----------



## editor (Sep 18, 2012)

spliff said:


> I'm just saying that in the first few hours or days the story can be spun. Tomlinson died because protesters were pelting the police trying to help him with bottles until the video came out.


But the link I posted wasn't a police statement. It was from an eye witness who had spoken to a reporter.


----------



## Deareg (Sep 18, 2012)

weltweit said:


> Dale Cregan sounds like a right arsehole, hope he gets life inside, meaning "until dead".


He will.


----------



## likesfish (Sep 18, 2012)

Complete waste of space and those who think theres anything of value in cops being murdered is an idiot.
   He can spend the rest of his life in prison.


----------



## bignose1 (Sep 18, 2012)

Chip Barm said:


> He handed himself into Hyde copshop I read.


Rather I meant where was he hiding...


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 18, 2012)

treelover said:


> Why are they consulting Johnson?, this was in Manchester...



Perhaps he'll give us a diatribe regarding the police having a victim mentality...


----------



## spliff (Sep 18, 2012)

editor said:


> But the link I posted wasn't a police statement. It was from an eye witness who had spoken to a reporter.


But you were replying to my post where I said _*"I would be vary wary of accepting any statements the police issue in the next couple of days.*_
_* There may be an arse protecting spin going on."*_

You shifted the goalposts, I didn't.


----------



## purenarcotic (Sep 18, 2012)

editor said:


> I'm referring to the murder of two unarmed women by an armed man. If that's not cowardly perhaps you might explain what is. Thanks.


 
Why do you keep mentioning that they're women?  Does the fact they have tits somehow make the murder worse?

If it was the murder of two men would you keep raising their gender to make your point?


----------



## editor (Sep 18, 2012)

spliff said:


> But you were replying to my post where I said _*"I would be vary wary of accepting any statements the police issue in the next couple of days.*_
> _* There may be an arse protecting spin going on."*_
> 
> You shifted the goalposts, I didn't.


Err, no. You were commenting on police statements, so I posted up an independent eye witness account, described it as such and included a link. And then you threw up this weird rant in response:





spliff said:


> You're right boss, believe everything they say. From the India House siege in the 70's through Hillsborough to Tomlinson and many others along the way.
> I'm just saying be wary.


----------



## spliff (Sep 18, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Rather I meant where was he hiding...


Abbey Gardens, Mottram, Tameside.


----------



## editor (Sep 18, 2012)

purenarcotic said:


> Why do you keep mentioning that they're women?


I think it's relevant. Don't you?


----------



## spliff (Sep 18, 2012)

Not at all, they were police officers.


----------



## Fedayn (Sep 18, 2012)

Crispy said:


> Meanwhile,on the topic, shooting dead unarmed people is for cunts.


 
Sometimes yes sometimes no, the context is all important. In this instance i'd argue it wasn't a good thing.


----------



## Fedayn (Sep 18, 2012)

editor said:


> I think it's relevant. Don't you?


 
In what way is it 'relevant'?


----------



## Lock&Light (Sep 18, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> Sometimes yes sometimes no, the context is all important. In this instance i'd argue it wasn't a good thing.


 
Are you in favour of the death penelty?


----------



## purenarcotic (Sep 18, 2012)

editor said:


> I think it's relevant. Don't you?


 
Not to the extent you keep bringing it up, no. 

Do you think murder is worse when it happens to a woman?


----------



## Andrew Hertford (Sep 18, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> Sometimes yes sometimes no, the context is all important. In this instance i'd argue it wasn't a good thing.


 
In which context would shooting unarmed people be a good thing?


----------



## Fedayn (Sep 18, 2012)

Lock&Light said:


> Are you in favour of the death penelty?


 
Yes, that's obviously the only scenario that could possibly be drawn from my comment. Do fuck off.


----------



## Fedayn (Sep 18, 2012)

Andrew Hertford said:


> In which context would shooting unarmed people be a good thing?


 
Go on, take a guess, do you think it could ever not be justifiable, understandable, be defended. I'll let yout think about that one for a while.


----------



## Lock&Light (Sep 18, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> Yes, that's obviously the only scenario that could possibly be drawn from my comment. Do fuck off.


 
Why be so narky? Can you give me an example of a situation where shooting an unarmed person would be desirable?


----------



## Andrew Hertford (Sep 18, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> Go on, take a guess, do you think it could ever not be justifiable, understandable, be defended. I'll let yout think about that one for a while.


 
Was the question a bit difficult for you?


----------



## shagnasty (Sep 18, 2012)

I share the anti police feelings many have, but they do serve a purpose .This is an unfortunate episode where two young police women lost there lives.fuck knows his motives ,but if found guilty i think he is looking at a long sentence


----------



## Fedayn (Sep 18, 2012)

Andrew Hertford said:


> Was the question a bit difficult for you?


 
No, but it's obviously a bit difficult for you to get to grips with given your inability to comprehend a rather obvious point. Still a bit stumped?


----------



## Fedayn (Sep 18, 2012)

Lock&Light said:


> Why be so narky?


 
Have you seen some of your abusive retorts on here and elswehere. I take it you can't see any scenario ever where it was justifiable?


----------



## Lock&Light (Sep 18, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> Have you seen some of your abusive retorts on here and elswehere.......


 
No, I haven't. Where can I find one?


----------



## Fedayn (Sep 18, 2012)

Lock&Light said:


> No, I haven't. Where can I find one?


 
No, you're all sweetness and light.


----------



## Firky (Sep 18, 2012)

Thread takes off.


----------



## Andrew Hertford (Sep 18, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> No, but it's obviously a bit difficult for you to get to grips with given your inability to comprehend a rather obvious point. Still a bit stumped?


 
Yes it's a question I'd find difficult to answer. But you say you wouldn't find it difficult, so, do you want to answer it or not?


----------



## Lock&Light (Sep 18, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> No, you're all sweetness and light.


 
I'm only lock and light.


----------



## Fedayn (Sep 18, 2012)

Andrew Hertford said:


> Yes it's a question I'd find difficult to answer. But you say you wouldn't find it difficult, so, do you want to answer it or not?


 
In certain political situations, wars, social upheavals then yes I think it both justifiable and understandable. I think if the woman who was raped in Turkey who beheaded her attacker had shot him dead that would imho, be justifiable if certainly extreme. I think if black people who were being lynched in the US had shot the lynchers that would have been enteirely justifiable yes, without question. Not reallty difficult. But as I said in this context it was a bad thing.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 18, 2012)

Now who looks dumb, andrew?


----------



## Lock&Light (Sep 18, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> In certain political situations, wars, social upheavals then yes I think it both justifiable and understandable. I think if the woman who was raped in Turkey who beheaded her attacker had shot him dead that would imho, be justifiable if certainly extreme. I think if black people who were being lynched in the US had shot the lynchers that would have been enteirely justifiable yes, without question. Not reallty difficult. But as I said in this context it was a bad thing.


 
Do you really believe that lynchers were unarmed?


----------



## Fedayn (Sep 18, 2012)

Andrew Hertford said:


> Was the question a bit difficult for you?


 
Prick


----------



## silverfish (Sep 18, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> Now who looks dumb, andrew?



Cheerleading?


----------



## Fedayn (Sep 18, 2012)

Lock&Light said:


> Do you really believe that lynchers were unarmed?


 
Alot were as the pictures show.

What about the Turkish woman? What about political/social upheavals?


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 18, 2012)

silverfish said:


> Cheerleading?



Yeah, why not?


----------



## Andrew Hertford (Sep 18, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> In certain political situations, wars, social upheavals then yes I think it both justifiable and understandable. I think if the woman who was raped in Turkey who beheaded her attacker had shot him dead that would imho, be justifiable if certainly extreme. I think if black people who were being lynched in the US had shot the lynchers that would have been enteirely justifiable yes, without question. Not reallty difficult. But as I said in this context it was a bad thing.


 
Thank you, I'd agree with most of that.


----------



## Fedayn (Sep 18, 2012)

silverfish said:


> Cheerleading?


 
Yeah, that's it isn't it, agreeing with someone = cheerleading.


----------



## Fedayn (Sep 18, 2012)

Andrew Hertford said:


> Thank you, I'd agree with most of that.


 
And yet it was a bit difficult for me to comprehend....??


----------



## Andrew Hertford (Sep 18, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> Prick


 
 And I thought we were getting on so well....


----------



## Fedayn (Sep 18, 2012)

Andrew Hertford said:


>


 
Bit difficult for you?


----------



## Corax (Sep 18, 2012)

purenarcotic said:


> Not to the extent you keep bringing it up, no.
> 
> Do you think murder is worse when it happens to a woman?


Perhaps editor didn't intend it this way, but it also came across to me as implying it was somehow worse because they were female.

Which is something that no doubt the media will portray over the coming days, reinforcing the fetishised sanctification of the female, and the casual devaluing of the male. As with a lot of sexist thought IMO, it achieves the double-whammy of insulting both genders at once.

May not be the way it was intended (and editor might clarify what was meant to that effect) - just how *I* read it.

Anyway, it's a dreadful thing to happen to the two of them, and their families. I'm certainly fairly anti-police, but I'm very much pro-people. And in death, Fiona and Nicola are people, not officers.


----------



## Andrew Hertford (Sep 18, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> Bit difficult for you?


 
Are you saying that the question about when it's acceptable to shoot an unarmed person isn't difficult?


----------



## Lock&Light (Sep 18, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> Alot were as the pictures show.
> 
> What about the Turkish woman? What about political/social upheavals?


 
If someone is being attacked, but there doesn't happen to be a gun used, is not a situation that I would immediately describe as 'unarmed'. These two police officers were not doing any lynching or raping and their murder was the act of a pathetic coward.


----------



## Fedayn (Sep 18, 2012)

Andrew Hertford said:


> Are you saying that the question about when it's acceptable to shoot an unarmed person isn't difficult?


 
I answered it.



Lock&Light said:


> If someone is being attacked, but there doesn't happen to be a gun used, is not a situation that I would immediately describe as 'unarmed'. These two police officers were not doing any lynching or raping and their murder was the act of a pathetic coward.


 
But they are legally and factually unarmed violent or not. I don't think this scenario is covered by what I mentioned.
Ther Turkish woman waited until after the attack, it was a response but not at the time, but I think entirely understandable and justifiable.


----------



## Andrew Hertford (Sep 18, 2012)

Corax said:


> Perhaps editor didn't intend it this way, but it also came across to me as implying it was somehow worse because they were female.
> 
> Which is something that no doubt the media will portray over the coming days, reinforcing the fetishised sanctification of the female, and the casual devaluing of the male. As with a lot of sexist thought, it achieves the double-whammy of insulting both genders at once.
> 
> ...


 
But I think they'd want to be remembered as officers and I'm sure their families would want that too.


----------



## Lock&Light (Sep 18, 2012)

Lock&Light said:


> No, I haven't. Where can I find one?


 
I'd still quite like to read any of these 'abusive retorts' that you mentioned. Can't you find any?


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 18, 2012)

have to wonder where he got a grenade from. Its not like they are available at Gilders*


*other hunting and fishing shops are available.


----------



## Lock&Light (Sep 18, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> Ther Turkish woman waited until after the attack, it was a response but not at the time, but I think entirely understandable and justifiable.


 
She had no justification unless, as you apparently do, she supported the death penalty.


----------



## Fedayn (Sep 18, 2012)

Lock&Light said:


> She had no justification unless, as you apparently do, she supported the death penelty.


 
No course not, abused, raped, made pregnant.... No justification at all. Then we disagree


----------



## Lock&Light (Sep 18, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> No course not, abused, raped, made pregnant.... No justification at all. Then we disagree


 
So you do think that the death penalty is justifiable. That makes it easier to dismiss your opinions as worthless.


----------



## rover07 (Sep 18, 2012)

DotCommunist said:


> have to wonder where he got a grenade from. Its not like they are available at Gilders*
> 
> 
> *other hunting and fishing shops are available.



Dale Cregan sounds like an Irish name so probably the IRA. Or the other lot.


----------



## Fedayn (Sep 18, 2012)

Lock&Light said:


> So you do think that the death penalty is justifiable. That makes it easier to dismiss your opinions as worthless.


 
Show me where I have defended the death penalty as opposed to it being entirely in certain political, social circumstances, ie major upheavals and the other circumstances that I have outlined where I think it entirely justifiable to shoot an unarmed person.

As for 'worthless', i'll leave that to you.


----------



## Lock&Light (Sep 18, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> Show me where I have defended the death penalty as opposed to it being entirely in certain political, social circumstances, ie major upheavals and the other circumstances that I have outlined where I think it entirely justifiable to shoot an unarmed person.
> 
> As for 'worthless', i'll leave that to you.


 
I prefer the rule of law. And it's only your opinions that I find worthless.


----------



## Jon-of-arc (Sep 18, 2012)

My mum told me a story this afternoon about how, in 1966, she met a man whilst her and her work friend were on their lunch break.  They'd gone to the corner shop to buy some fags, and a man approached them.  He had a towel over his shoulder, and asked the way to the swimming pool, and got chatting to them.  As they walked down the street, someone called their attention, but my mum and her friend didn't notice.  The stranger they were chatting to pointed out the person calling them, but refused to look at him.  Not long after they parted ways.

That evening, my mum saw Harry Roberts on TV, as "Britains most wanted man" or some-such.  She realised that the stranger who had asked her for directions to the swimming pool was actually Harry Roberts!  Most bizarrely, this all happened in Henley on Thames, where my mum lived for the duration of 1966. 

For some reason, reports about Roberts' trip to Henley's swimming baths during the height of the man-hunt for him (when he used his military training to evade the police for 3 months)  are strangely exempt from the wikipedia article about him...


----------



## Fedayn (Sep 18, 2012)

Lock&Light said:


> I prefer the rule of law. And it's only your opinions that I find worthless.


 
The Turkish woman and black people who were lynched will be touched by your support for the rule of law....


----------



## Lock&Light (Sep 18, 2012)

I was passing by the Police Station on the Uxbridge Road, in Shepherds Bush just at the moment that Harry Roberts, freshly caught, was being rushed from a police van into the station. Probably his last moments ever out on a normal street.


----------



## Lock&Light (Sep 18, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> The Turkish woman and black people who were lynched will be touched by your support for the rule of law....


 
You know something better that the rule of law? Oh, yes. The law of the jungle.


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 18, 2012)

Lock&Light said:


> So you do think that the death penalty is justifiable. That makes it easier to dismiss your opinions as worthless.


 

there is surely a distinction to be made between the death penalty, handed out by a court after a trial and carried out by the state, and shooting someone yourself for justifiable reasons?


----------



## Lock&Light (Sep 18, 2012)

DotCommunist said:


> there is surely a distinction to be made between the death penalty, handed out by a court after a trial and carried out by the state, and shooting someone yourself for justifiable reasons?


 
I don't think so.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 18, 2012)

articul8 said:


> ah
> 
> 
> So many of your posts smack of the gentlemens club


So few of yours smack of intelligent direction


----------



## shagnasty (Sep 18, 2012)

Jon-of-arc said:


> My mum told me a story this afternoon about how, in 1966, she met a man whilst her and her work friend were on their lunch break. They'd gone to the corner shop to buy some fags, and a man approached them. He had a towel over his shoulder, and asked the way to the swimming pool, and got chatting to them. As they walked down the street, someone called their attention, but my mum and her friend didn't notice. The stranger they were chatting to pointed out the person calling them, but refused to look at him. Not long after they parted ways.
> 
> That evening, my mum saw Harry Roberts on TV, as "Britains most wanted man" or some-such. She realised that the stranger who had asked her for directions to the swimming pool was actually Harry Roberts! Most bizarrely, this all happened in Henley on Thames, where my mum lived for the duration of 1966.
> 
> For some reason, reports about Roberts' trip to Henley's swimming baths during the height of the man-hunt for him (when he used his military training to evade the police for 3 months) are strangely exempt from the wikipedia article about him...


A joke at time @they caught Harry roberts he pressed button b and four coppers came rolling out@ You have to remember the old phone boxes to get that joke


----------



## Lock&Light (Sep 18, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> So few of yours smack of intelligent direction


 
It's sad how convinced you are that any of yours do.


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 18, 2012)

Lock&Light said:


> I don't think so.


 

well the logic of that position is then to endorse IRA community justice, surely?


----------



## Lock&Light (Sep 18, 2012)

DotCommunist said:


> well the logic of that position is then to endorse IRA community justice, surely?


 
Any logic used in coming to that conclusion escapes me.


----------



## spliff (Sep 18, 2012)

Lock&Light said:


> I was passing by the Police Station on the Uxbridge Road, in Shepherds Bush just at the moment that Harry Roberts, freshly caught, was being rushed from a police van into the station. Probably his last moments ever out on a normal street.


Did you go and hammer on the side of the van  screaming "Bastard, bastard, hangings to good for you"  or did you carry on to the greengrocers for your vegetables?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 18, 2012)

firky said:


> Shooting dead two unarmed coppers by all accounts.
> 
> Should have settled for kneecaps.


Which everyday jobs involve shooting coppers dead?


----------



## Lock&Light (Sep 18, 2012)

spliff said:


> Did you go and hammer on the side of the van screaming "Bastard, bastard, hangings to good for you" or did you carry on to the greengrocers for your vegetables?


 
I'm not sure, but I have feeling that I was on my way to Loftus Road.


----------



## Fedayn (Sep 18, 2012)

Lock&Light said:


> You know something better that the rule of law? Oh, yes. The law of the jungle.


 
I'm very much in favour of the rule of law, a proper democratically organised legal framework. But I accept that in some circsumstances extreme action is justifiable.


----------



## spliff (Sep 18, 2012)

shagnasty said:


> A joke at time @they caught Harry roberts he pressed button b and four coopers came rolling out@ You have to remember the old phone boxes to get that joke


You have to spell it right to make it work.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 18, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> I'm very much in favour of the rule of law. But I accept that in some circsumstances extreme action is justifiable.


 
At sea of course, on occasions the RNLI need to pop some caps in to some arses.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 18, 2012)

articul8 said:


> shouldn't that be ethical?  No-one's asking for it to be rated as piece of street theatre


I prefer to think of this more as a pollock than a burne-jones


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 18, 2012)

Lock&Light said:


> Any logic used in coming to that conclusion escapes me.


 

ok, right, put it this way:

you equate a private citizen shooting someone for justifiable reasons as the same as the trial/sentence/life ending done by the state.

so surely if the IRA catch a nonce and do him in, you consider that the same as the death penalty?

support was the wrong word, iirc you don't support the death penalty either. But theres surely a world of difference! atrial etc, your 'rule of law' due proccess or whatever you want to call it.surely that means the death penalty is different to a shooting, however justifiable that shooting may be


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 18, 2012)

editor said:


> Grow a pair, ffs.


I ask *again* which is the question you want answered?


----------



## Frances Lengel (Sep 18, 2012)

menmedia.co.uk/manchestereveningnews/news/s/1589027_live-police-officers-fiona-bone-and-nicola-hughes-lured-to-their-deaths-before-fugitive-dale-cregan-handed-himself-in


> Other officers were seen running away from the scene in tears.


 
 Wtf?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 18, 2012)

I vehemently disagree with the death penalty. Yet I'd kill any fucker who her Baby Bahn.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 18, 2012)

editor said:


> Actually, I was questioning his ability to answer a question directly or honestly, but if you like, I'll reword the question to:
> 
> "Please answer the question directly Pickmans because your continuing evasion is proving very frustrating and suggests that you haven't the courage of your convictions".
> 
> How's that? Can we move on now?


you do know your reworded question is no such thing, right?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 18, 2012)

Andrew Hertford said:


> In which context would shooting unarmed people be a good thing?


So you think shooting nazis by firing squad's a bad thing. Twat.


----------



## Firky (Sep 18, 2012)

Andrew Hertford said:


> In which context would shooting unarmed people be a good thing?


 
Pornography?


----------



## spliff (Sep 18, 2012)

Andrew Hertford said:


> In which context would shooting unarmed people be a good thing?


Double parking,


----------



## shagnasty (Sep 18, 2012)

spliff said:


> You have to spell it right to make it work.


Have corrected it now ,don't think four barrel makers would be much use


----------



## Andrew Hertford (Sep 18, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> So you think shooting nazis by firing squad's a bad thing. Twat.


 
Do you mean executing nazi POWs in the second world war? Or executing Nick Griffin? Both would be a bad thing. Twat.


----------



## spliff (Sep 18, 2012)

Andrew Hertford said:


> In which context would shooting unarmed people be a good thing?


Oh! Oh! Oh! Is it to late to go for the boat option?


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 18, 2012)

Andrew Hertford said:


> In which context would shooting unarmed people be a good thing?



When you're shooting them with a camera?


----------



## friedaweed (Sep 18, 2012)

I'm all out of popcorn can you all hang on whilst I wind the microwave up?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 18, 2012)

Andrew Hertford said:


> Do you mean executing nazi POWs in the second world war? Or executing Nick Griffin? Both would be a bad thing. Twat.


neither. you really are an unimaginative cunt.


----------



## Andrew Hertford (Sep 18, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> neither. you really are an unimaginative cunt.


 
What then? You really are an annoying cunt.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 18, 2012)

Andrew Hertford said:


> What then? You really are an annoying cunt.


for example, the execution of nazi war criminals by the ussr after the second world war. how is that in any way bad?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 18, 2012)

editor said:


> Fuck's sake. Why are you being such a gnarly arse here?
> It was the eye witness testimony that made sure that the real story of what happened to Tomlinson got out.


i think you'll find it was the film.


----------



## Andrew Hertford (Sep 18, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> for example, the execution of nazi war criminals by the ussr after the second world war. how is that in any way bad?


 
I wouldn't exactly call the executions after Nurenburg bad, but I'm against the death penalty whatever the situation.

Now, can you answer the question I put to you earlier? Do you acknowledge that that what happened this morning was a nasty and vicious murder carried out against two innocent people?


----------



## Fedayn (Sep 18, 2012)

editor said:


> Fuck's sake. Why are you being such a gnarly arse here?
> It was the eye witness testimony that made sure that the real story of what happened to Tomlinson got out.


 
If by 'eye witness testimony' you mean the film shot by an American tourist, then yes. If that's not what you meant then no, as has been alluded to by the family and various legal commentators.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 18, 2012)

Andrew Hertford said:


> I wouldn't exactly call the executions after Nurenburg bad, but I'm against the death penalty whatever the situation.
> 
> Now, can you answer the question I put to you earlier? Do you acknowledge that that what happened this morning was a nasty and vicious murder carried out against two innocent people?


that's not the question you asked before. which question would you like me to think about answering?


----------



## Lock&Light (Sep 18, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> ............ which question would you like me to think about answering?


 
"What am I doing here"?


----------



## weltweit (Sep 18, 2012)

IIRC There was no thread earlier about the two British soldiers killed in Afghanistan by their Afghan colleague earlier this week. Perhaps we have become inured to the deaths of our soldiers in such numbers.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 18, 2012)

Lock&Light said:


> "What am I doing here"?


well, what ARE you doing here?


----------



## Deareg (Sep 18, 2012)

.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 18, 2012)

weltweit said:


> IIRC There was no thread earlier about the two British soldiers killed in Afghanistan by their Afghan colleague earlier this week. Perhaps we have become inured to the deaths of our soldiers in such numbers.


what, you mean in twos and threes?


----------



## Deareg (Sep 18, 2012)

weltweit said:


> IIRC There was no thread earlier about the two British soldiers killed in Afghanistan by their Afghan colleague earlier this week. Perhaps we have become inured to the deaths of our soldiers in such numbers.


If the Afghan courts are anything like their British counterparts they will be found not guilty anyway.


----------



## Deareg (Sep 18, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> what, you mean in twos and threes?


I deleted my post because you beat me to the punch.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 18, 2012)

weltweit said:


> IIRC There was no thread earlier about the two British soldiers killed in Afghanistan by their Afghan colleague earlier this week. Perhaps we have become inured to the deaths of our soldiers in such numbers.



Death tends to happen in warfare. In fact, I think the opposite is true. The media and parts of the populous act surprised/outraged when we lose soldiers in a fairly predictable manner.


----------



## weltweit (Sep 18, 2012)

Cameron said that he would have a war cabinet - because we are at war - I never heard any more about it, but we are still at war and a whole load more soldiers are being killed regularly than police officers.


----------



## 8ball (Sep 18, 2012)

Just catching up with this story now.

Fucking hell - _grenades_!! 
Does anyone know why he did it yet?  Aside from being some kind of evil psycho fruitloop?


----------



## Firky (Sep 18, 2012)

8ball said:


> Just catching up with this story now.
> 
> Fucking hell - _grenades_!!
> Does anyone know why he did it yet? Aside from being some kind of evil psycho fruitloop?


 
Doesn't like Tuesday.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 18, 2012)

weltweit said:


> Cameron said that he would have a war cabinet - because we are at war - I never heard any more about it, but we are still at war and a whole load more soldiers are being killed regularly than police officers.



What do you think ought to happen in warfare?


----------



## weltweit (Sep 18, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> What do you think ought to happen in warfare?


I would have thought that was obvious - we should win!!


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 18, 2012)

weltweit said:


> I would have thought that was obvious - we should win!!



But you accept that loss of human life is an undesirable but matter of fact side effect?


----------



## Lock&Light (Sep 18, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> well, what ARE you doing here?


 
That response wouldn't even have been intelligent if I hadn't used inverted commas.


----------



## 8ball (Sep 18, 2012)

firky said:


> Doesn't like Tuesday.


 
I'm grouchy on Tuesdays too, but it seems a little extreme.


----------



## ayatollah (Sep 18, 2012)

In about 1943 (recently saw a "History Channel" documentary on this, can't remember the exact dates though) the British SOE decided to carry out a campaign of targetted assassinations in Occupied Europe - using the astonishingly silent "Wellrod" assassination pistol, SOE agents tootled about, especially in Belgium, bumping off quite a lot of senior German and Collaborator Nazis. Point of the exercise seems really just to have been to cause general alarm and despondency amongst fascists and Nazis generally. Pure terror tactics... "terrorism " of the clearest type. Lots of the fascists weren't even armed ! Now I say "Well done all.... a spiffing good job and good riddence to human rubbish". Context is surely all in these situations. Being "against capital punishment".... or the "killing of the unarmed" is contextless drivel. Similarly...most supposed "pacifists" are the first to ring up the police to get help if big nasty men try to mug them... but this is of course just "subcontracting " out the use of "violence" to the cops.. rather than dirtying your own hands defending yourself or your friends... or indeed complete strangers.

This is in no way to applaud or condone the current issue of the murder of two harmless wee policewoman by a criminal nutter...in a current British bourgeois democratic society context. But to elevate this to some contextless, ahistorical, blanket condemnation of killing police in all contexts, is liberal drivel. In Pinochet's Chile, or Nazi Germany, or Apartheid era South Africa, ALL police were perfectly legitimate targets for assassination -- the issue would be purely tactical... not moral.


----------



## twentythreedom (Sep 18, 2012)

Sounds like the police fucked up - having committed hundreds of plod to the manhunt, done 50-odd raids, spent vast amounts etc they should've been alert to the possibility of the perp being in the unoccupied house, surely? Could've approached the house more cautiously. Just a thought.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 18, 2012)

weltweit said:


> Cameron said that he would have a war cabinet - because we are at war - I never heard any more about it, but we are still at war and a whole load more soldiers are being killed regularly than police officers.


he had a war cabinet. now he has a drinks cabinet.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 18, 2012)

weltweit said:


> I would have thought that was obvious - we should win!!


it's such a pity that in practice you translate this into "we should whine"


----------



## weltweit (Sep 18, 2012)

twentythreedom said:


> Sounds like the police fucked up - having committed hundreds of plod to the manhunt, done 50-odd raids, spent vast amounts etc they should've been alert to the possibility of the perp being in the unoccupied house, surely? Could've approached the house more cautiously. Just a thought.


 
They probably did not know the house was unoccupied, hence they sent people to check on a burglary at the house which would imply that someone lived there or was there at the time of the call.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 18, 2012)

weltweit said:


> They probably did not know the house was unoccupied, hence they sent people to check on a burglary at the house which would imply that someone lived there or was there at the time of the call.


there was someone there at the time of the call.


----------



## weltweit (Sep 18, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> there was someone there at the time of the call.


indeed


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 18, 2012)

i see there's been a 'vile' facebook page set up, demanding an obe for dale cregan.

*http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-blasts-hold-folk-hero.html?ito=feeds-newsxml*

i quite agree, it is vile. he should be put forward for the gbe instead, if gongs are handed out for this sort of thing. you get an obe for helping children cross roads, not for topping coppers.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Sep 18, 2012)

twentythreedom said:


> Sounds like the police fucked up


 
Another cover up on the cards then. But this time there's two dead coppers.


----------



## Firky (Sep 18, 2012)

One of the coppers was only 23, barely out of her teens. Fucked up.


----------



## twentythreedom (Sep 18, 2012)

A witness said the house was known to be empty and had whitewashed windows. Read it somewhere that, graun site maybe.

Even still.


----------



## 8ball (Sep 18, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> i see there's been a 'vile' facebook page set up, demanding an obe for dale cregan.


 
Yeah, bet the DM had nothing to do with that...


----------



## Firky (Sep 18, 2012)

8ball said:


> Yeah, bet the DM had nothing to do with that...


 
I don't think (well like to think) the press would dare do anything like that following the NOTW saga.


----------



## Andrew Hertford (Sep 18, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> that's not the question you asked before. which question would you like me to think about answering?


 
No it's the same question, but if it makes it easier for you, try answering the one on #244.


----------



## Part 2 (Sep 18, 2012)

twentythreedom said:


> Sounds like the police fucked up - having committed hundreds of plod to the manhunt, done 50-odd raids, spent vast amounts etc they should've been alert to the possibility of the perp being in the unoccupied house, surely? Could've approached the house more cautiously. Just a thought.


 
No, the hunt has been focused away from Manchester for weeks. They were taken completely by surprise when they were told about the other fella being in Openshaw.


----------



## maldwyn (Sep 18, 2012)

Wouldn't of happened here, the cops can't be arsed coming out for a burglary preferring instead to issue a crime number.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 18, 2012)

Andrew Hertford said:


> No it's the same question, but if it makes it easier for you, try answering the one on #244.


i'll do the first one, to which my answer is 'yes, i could'.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Sep 18, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> i see there's been a 'vile' facebook page set up, demanding an obe for dale cregan.


 
Whoever set that up will looking at a life sentence, if Azhar Ahmed is owt to go off.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 18, 2012)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Whoever set that up will looking at a life sentence, if Azhar Ahmed is owt to go off.


yeh, someone's going down for that no doubt.


----------



## freshnero (Sep 18, 2012)

Bill Maher on 9/11
"We have been the cowards. Lobbing cruise missiles from two thousand miles away. That's cowardly. Staying in the airplane when it hits the building. Say what you want about it. Not cowardly"

Tend to agree with that, sick but they did display bravely


----------



## spliff (Sep 18, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> i see there's been a 'vile' facebook page set up, demanding an obe for dale cregan.
> 
> *http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-blasts-hold-folk-hero.html?ito=feeds-newsxml*
> 
> i quite agree, it is vile. he should be put forward for the gbe instead, if gongs are handed out for this sort of thing. you get an obe for helping children cross roads, not for topping coppers.


 
That's just childish


----------



## weltweit (Sep 18, 2012)

freshnero said:


> Bill Maher on 9/11
> "We have been the cowards. Lobbing cruise missiles from two thousand miles away. That's cowardly. Staying in the airplane when it hits the building. Say what you want about it. Not cowardly"
> 
> Tend to agree with that, sick but they did display bravely


 
Interesting no doubt, but how does this relate to this thread?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 18, 2012)

spliff said:


> That's just childish


i'm cut to the quick, or i would be if your opinion made the slightest bit of difference to me.

perhaps if you were able to justify your point of view then i might be more interested in anything you have to say.


----------



## Part 2 (Sep 18, 2012)

The 41 people who joined the Dale Cregan Hero group are fairly minscule compared to the 5k who've joined Hang Dale Cregan.

http://www.facebook.com/HangDaleCregan?ref=ts


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Sep 18, 2012)

Chip Barm said:


> The 41 people who joined the Dale Cregan Hero group are fairly minscule compared to the 5k who've joined Hang Dale Cregan.
> 
> http://www.facebook.com/HangDaleCregan?ref=ts


 
That'll be the Daily Fail readers then.


----------



## likesfish (Sep 18, 2012)

Hopefully the pratt who set up that facebook gets to spend some timeexplaining themselves to the police its not big and its not clever or funny.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Sep 18, 2012)

likesfish said:


> Hopefully the pratt who set up that facebook gets to spend some timeexplaining themselves to the police its not big and its not clever or funny.


 
There's no 'hopefully' about it, they'll be arrested tonight & in court tomorrow.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 18, 2012)

likesfish said:


> Hopefully the pratt who set up that facebook gets to spend some timeexplaining themselves to the police its not big and its not clever or funny.



I agree although i'm surprised you're not pro capital punishment?


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 18, 2012)

I know it might seem a bit white knightish but if he lured them in intentionally with the aim of taking some coppers out you'd think he might flinch and desist when the responding ossifers turned out to be two fresh faced young women? 

although, given that he already did two people in I suppose he was pretty much living in idon'tgivafucksville anyway....


----------



## spliff (Sep 18, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> i'm cut to the quick, or i would be if your opinion made the slightest bit of difference to me.
> 
> perhaps if you were able to justify your point of view then i might be more interested in anything you have to say.


Fucking heaven in hell, I was referring to the Daily Mail facebook link you dipstick.
Stop being such an aggressive victim.


----------



## ajk (Sep 18, 2012)

Fiona was one of the best people I've ever known, she was thoughtful, funny, caring, and eccentric. She was getting married in a few months.


----------



## likesfish (Sep 18, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> I agree although i'm surprised you're not pro capital punishment?



Not above taking a piece of shit like that as he tries to surrender " he was coming straight for me guv"
   But the whole state sanctioned murder thing probably isnt very healthy and seeing the uks fairly inabilty not to imprision the wrong people its probably a bad idea.
   If every murderer gets to swing fair enough but start deciding some killers desrve to hang and others dont seems a bit meh.


----------



## friedaweed (Sep 18, 2012)

Chip Barm said:


> No, the hunt has been focused away from Manchester for weeks. They were taken completely by surprise when they were told about the other fella being in Openshaw.


They new he was in Manchester


----------



## weltweit (Sep 18, 2012)

ajk said:


> Fiona was one of the best people I've ever known, she was thoughtful, funny, caring, and eccentric. She was getting married in a few months.


Did you know one of them? commisserations if you did.


----------



## Part 2 (Sep 18, 2012)

friedaweed said:


> They new he was in Manchester


 
Once they were told.


----------



## ajk (Sep 18, 2012)

weltweit said:


> Did you know one of them? commisserations if you did.



Haven't seen her for a while, we lost touch somewhat when she moved to Manchester especially after I quit Facebook.  Still, I'd stay at hers if I was in Manchester and we'd meet up down the pub when she was over here seeing her family.  She was over with her missus and her kid a few months ago, that was the last time I saw her.  will ever see her, I suppose.  I'm in bits right now tbh


----------



## twentythreedom (Sep 18, 2012)

Chip Barm said:


> No, the hunt has been focused away from Manchester for weeks. They were taken completely by surprise when they were told about the other fella being in Openshaw.


 
Yeah but.......


----------



## friedaweed (Sep 18, 2012)

ajk said:


> Haven't seen her for a while, we lost touch somewhat when she moved to Manchester especially after I quit Facebook. Still, I'd stay at hers if I was in Manchester and we'd meet up down the pub when she was over here seeing her family. She was over with her missus and her kid a few months ago, that was the last time I saw her. will ever see her, I suppose. I'm in bits right now tbh


 That's real sad. Can't see this bunfight of a thread being much help. Commiserations AJK


----------



## Firky (Sep 18, 2012)

likesfish said:


> Hopefully the pratt who set up that facebook gets to spend some timeexplaining themselves to the police its not big and its not clever or funny.


 
Hopefully not, the police shouldn't get involved in trolling.


----------



## Firky (Sep 18, 2012)

ajk said:


> Fiona was one of the best people I've ever known, she was thoughtful, funny, caring, and eccentric. She was getting married in a few months.


 
You knew her? Sorry, man 

I'll stop stirring the bun fight.


----------



## cesare (Sep 18, 2012)

ajk said:


> Haven't seen her for a while, we lost touch somewhat when she moved to Manchester especially after I quit Facebook.  Still, I'd stay at hers if I was in Manchester and we'd meet up down the pub when she was over here seeing her family.  She was over with her missus and her kid a few months ago, that was the last time I saw her.  will ever see her, I suppose.  I'm in bits right now tbh



A big shock and very distressing for you.  Condolences.


----------



## Lock&Light (Sep 18, 2012)

firky said:


> You knew her? Sorry, man
> 
> I'll stop stirring the bun fight.


 
Surely you already knew that both these people had friends and family?


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 18, 2012)

Chip Barm said:


> Some of us venture out of the streets we live in. You should try it.
> 
> And the fella was arrested in a park in Openshaw which isn't Tamside, so ner.


 
Avenues in your case Chip.


----------



## Andrew Hertford (Sep 18, 2012)

ajk said:


> Haven't seen her for a while, we lost touch somewhat when she moved to Manchester especially after I quit Facebook. Still, I'd stay at hers if I was in Manchester and we'd meet up down the pub when she was over here seeing her family. She was over with her missus and her kid a few months ago, that was the last time I saw her. will ever see her, I suppose. I'm in bits right now tbh


 
That's so sad ajk. I know there are some dumb things said on this board about the police sometimes, but I get the impression that deep down even those who've always got it in for them have been shocked and upset by what has happened today.


----------



## Part 2 (Sep 18, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> Avenues in your case Chip.


 
Really?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 18, 2012)

spliff said:


> Fucking heaven in hell, I was referring to the Daily Mail facebook link you dipstick.
> Stop being such an aggressive victim.


stop being so equivocal in your posts.


----------



## Wilf (Sep 18, 2012)

ajk said:


> Haven't seen her for a while, we lost touch somewhat when she moved to Manchester especially after I quit Facebook. Still, I'd stay at hers if I was in Manchester and we'd meet up down the pub when she was over here seeing her family. She was over with her missus and her kid a few months ago, that was the last time I saw her. will ever see her, I suppose. I'm in bits right now tbh


 Sorry to hear that ajk, Commiserations. 

Be really nice if anybody wanting to carry on dicking about could just restrain themselves.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 18, 2012)

likesfish said:


> Hopefully the pratt who set up that facebook gets to spend some timeexplaining themselves to the police its not big and its not clever or funny.


as long as they don't have to spend time explaining it to the judge i don't much mind.


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Sep 18, 2012)

ajk said:


> Haven't seen her for a while, we lost touch somewhat when she moved to Manchester especially after I quit Facebook. Still, I'd stay at hers if I was in Manchester and we'd meet up down the pub when she was over here seeing her family. She was over with her missus and her kid a few months ago, that was the last time I saw her. will ever see her, I suppose. I'm in bits right now tbh


 
Really sorry for the loss of your friend.  That's hard to take.


----------



## Ax^ (Sep 18, 2012)

The focus on the "unarmed" police is starting to worry me about the resulting push when some right wing muppet suggests on having full armed police


----------



## quimcunx (Sep 18, 2012)

Ax^ said:


> The focus on the "unarmed" police is starting to worry me about the resulting push when some right wing muppet suggests on having full armed police


 
Nothing to say that would have helped them today anyway.  They weren't doing a raid on the house were they?  Just moseyed on down to have a shufty.  

Sorry for your loss, ajk.


----------



## Ax^ (Sep 18, 2012)

You have a point but it just the usually f*ckrag blood lust fantasy muppet who grab a headline like this is what I mean...


Would of solved nothing I agree


----------



## Lemon Eddy (Sep 18, 2012)

Ax^ said:


> The focus on the "unarmed" police is starting to worry me about the resulting push when some right wing muppet suggests on having full armed police


 
Considering that the police themselves have repeatedly indicated that they do not wish to routinely carry guns, I don't see the issue here.

http://www.polfed.org/federationpolicy/firearms.asp 

"An overwhelming majority of 82 per cent stated that they do not want all officers to be routinely armed on duty.  This is particularly significant given that there has been almost no change in police officers’ opinions since we conducted the previous surveys in 2003 and 1995, and this despite the massive rise in gun related crime. "

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...s-former-senior-firearms-officer-8153112.html

"A former senior police firearms officer who planned major operations has said the public would not accept every bobby on the beat routinely carrying a pistol...

...officers have different skills, whether they are detection, surveillance or marine operations, and firearms is an expertise.
"Not every officer wants to carry a firearm and I am a firm believer that we should have dedicated experts. They should be the best equipped officers anywhere on the planet." "

http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/09/18/dale-cregan/

"Despite shock over the murders, described by Prime Minister David Cameron as “despicable,” senior police officers said they were determined that the British force would remain one of few in the world which is not routinely armed."

It's not as if arming these two poor sods would have made any difference, anyway.  Outside of John Woo movies there's not much that a pistol is going to do to save you from a grenade.


----------



## Ax^ (Sep 18, 2012)

Ah cool tbh just seen one report on thw whole issue been busy all day and as it was the bbc the first thing was about armed police


fair enough


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 18, 2012)

Lemon Eddy said:


> Considering that the police themselves have repeatedly indicated that they do not wish to routinely carry guns, I don't see the issue here.
> 
> http://www.polfed.org/federationpolicy/firearms.asp
> 
> ...


one reason the police might not want to be routinely armed is that there'd be more dead cops as per this training incident
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/mar/07/police-charges-death-gun-training


----------



## spliff (Sep 18, 2012)

Actually I think that if our police were routinely armed there would be less of these 'training accidents' They might understand their weapons better.


----------



## Lock&Light (Sep 18, 2012)

Just last week there was another case in Nederland of a policeman who had used his service pistol to shoot his ex-girlfriend and her new boyfriend before turning the gun on himself.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 18, 2012)

spliff said:


> Actually I think that if our police were routinely armed there would be less of these 'training accidents' They might understand their weapons better.


the army have been training with firearms for hundreds of years. every year there are people killed and injured in the army due to training accidents. but hey perhaps the police are different.


----------



## DexterTCN (Sep 18, 2012)

spliff said:


> Actually I think that if our police were routinely armed there would be less of these 'training accidents' They might understand their weapons better.


Yeah but there'd be more dead us.


----------



## editor (Sep 18, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> If by 'eye witness testimony' you mean the film shot by an American tourist, then yes.


That is what I meant. Thank fuck he took the video.


----------



## editor (Sep 18, 2012)

Wilf said:


> Sorry to hear that ajk, Commiserations.
> 
> Be really nice if anybody wanting to carry on dicking about could just restrain themselves.


Indeed.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 18, 2012)

editor said:


> That is what I meant. Thank fuck he took the video.


i'm surprised you read post 245 before you read post 243.


----------



## editor (Sep 18, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> i'm surprised you read post 245 before you read post 243.


I suggest you refer to post #309.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 18, 2012)

editor said:


> I suggest you refer to post #309.


i have done; i read it some time ago.


----------



## spliff (Sep 18, 2012)

Sorry to hear that 'ajk'  my niece's husband is a copper but I never think of him being in the firing line but things can be so random can't they.
My heartfelt condolences.


----------



## 8ball (Sep 18, 2012)

Lock&Light said:


> Just last week there was another case in Nederland of a policeman who had used his service pistol to shoot his ex-girlfriend and her new boyfriend before turning the gun on himself.


 
Turning the gun on yourself is such a cliche nowadays.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 19, 2012)

8ball said:


> Turning the gun on yourself is such a cliche nowadays.


yes, i was quite surprised that dale cregan also managed to get arrested and not shot - which is of course the way these things have a tendency to end.


----------



## 8ball (Sep 19, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> yes, i was quite surprised that dale cregan also managed to get arrested and not shot - which is of course the way these things have a tendency to end.


 
If I was a copper I would have been tempted tbf.


----------



## spliff (Sep 19, 2012)

They don't often shoot people turning themselves in at police stations to my knowledge.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 19, 2012)

8ball said:


> If I was a copper I would have been tempted tbf.


i wonder if he'll be receiving treatment for contusions and abrasions suffered in 'a fall down the stairs'.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Sep 19, 2012)

editor said:


> I don't think Mr Cregan will enjoying a leisurely stroll in the Manchester air for some time.


 
If your cops were armed, probably one of them would be alive, and he'd be dead.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 19, 2012)

spliff said:


> They don't often shoot people turning themselves in at police stations to my knowledge.








colin roach, rip

http://4wardevernewsvine.wordpress.com/2009/01/10/26-years-on-colins-story/


----------



## DexterTCN (Sep 19, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> If your cops were armed, probably one of them would be alive, and he'd be dead.


No, if he'd thought they were armed and his intentions were to kill them he would just have positioned himself out of sight in front of the house.

If our cops were armed, there'd be killings of civilians every month, to start with.

I mean, they already kill civilians, but not with guns.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Sep 19, 2012)

DexterTCN said:


> No, if he'd thought they were armed and his intentions were to kill them he would just have positioned himself out of sight in front of the house.
> 
> If our cops were armed, there'd be killings of civilians every month, to start with.
> 
> I mean, they already kill civilians, but not with guns.


 
Policing is a highly dangerous job, and I think it's irresponsible to make them do it without weapons, especially when more and more of your criminals are becoming armed themselves.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 19, 2012)

DexterTCN said:


> No, if he'd thought they were armed and his intentions were to kill them he would just have positioned himself out of sight in front of the house.
> 
> If our cops were armed, there'd be killings of civilians every month, to start with.
> 
> I mean, they already kill civilians, but not with guns.


you mean except for harry stanley, jean charles de menezes, mark duggan, mark saunders and diarmuid o'neill, among others.


----------



## 8ball (Sep 19, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> i wonder if he'll be receiving treatment for contusions and abrasions suffered in 'a fall down the stairs'.


 
I think with a case with this high a profile that's not all that likely.


----------



## spliff (Sep 19, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> colin roach, rip http://4wardevernewsvine.wordpress.com/2009/01/10/26-years-on-colins-story/


Yeah I remember that now and to my shame I had forgotten.
As you say RIP Colin.


----------



## 8ball (Sep 19, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> you mean except for harry stanley, jean charles de menezes, mark duggan, mark saunders and raoul moat, among others.


 
You don't think Moat offed himself?


----------



## editor (Sep 19, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> If your cops were armed, probably one of them would be alive, and he'd be dead.


Yeah, I can see that works brilliantly in the US where 63 were killed by guns *last year *compared to only 67 British police officers being killed by firearms between *1900 and 2006* (excluding Northern Ireland).


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 19, 2012)

8ball said:


> You don't think Moat offed himself?


my bad


----------



## DexterTCN (Sep 19, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> you mean except for harry stanley, jean charles de menezes, mark duggan, mark saunders and diarmuid o'neill, among others.


They were all confronted by tactically armed police, JC is talking about routinely arming the police, it's different - although it merely strengthens my point.


----------



## Lock&Light (Sep 19, 2012)

8ball said:


> Turning the gun on yourself is such a cliche nowadays.


 
I wonder how many moments that policeman exhausted in contemplating that fact before turning the gun on himself.


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 19, 2012)

8ball said:


> You don't think Moat offed himself?


 

he waz tazered with his finger in the trigger


----------



## DexterTCN (Sep 19, 2012)

DotCommunist said:


> he waz tazered with his finger in the trigger


An in-off, as they say in snooker.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 19, 2012)

DexterTCN said:


> They were all confronted by tactically armed police, JC is talking about routinely arming the police, it's different - although it merely strengthens my point.


let me remind you what you said:


> If our cops were armed, there'd be killings of civilians every month, to start with.
> 
> I mean, they already kill civilians, but not with guns.


i was replying to YOU, i was NOT replying to jc3. so stop moving the goalposts right now.


----------



## spliff (Sep 19, 2012)

DotCommunist said:


> he waz tazered with his finger in the trigger


That's about it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 19, 2012)

DotCommunist said:


> he waz tazered with his finger in the trigger


he was suicided, as they say. as it was a taser, he wasn't 'shot' by the police, but to my mind they engineered the death as much as if one of them had pulled the trigger instead of moat.


----------



## 8ball (Sep 19, 2012)

DotCommunist said:


> he waz tazered with his finger in the trigger


 
If he'd just put the gun in his mouth and someone had tasered him to incapacitate him, I think if they'd waited a second longer they'd probably have had the same result.

I'm not sure we'll ever know what exactly happened tbf.


----------



## Lock&Light (Sep 19, 2012)

DotCommunist said:


> he waz tazered with his finger in the trigger


 
Are you suggesting that on top of being a  craven coward by killing innocent people in his spree, he was also too cowardly to make an end of himself?


----------



## DexterTCN (Sep 19, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> let me remind you what you said:
> i was replying to YOU, i was NOT replying to jc3. so stop moving the goalposts right now.


I tell you what.   Fuck off and talk to someone else 

I'm not interested, you're a wanker.   You're actually worse than a wanker, but hey, it's not my place.


----------



## cesare (Sep 19, 2012)

Lock&Light said:


> Are you suggesting that on top of being a  craven coward by killing innocent people in his spree, he was also too cowardly to make an end of himself?



What else would a coward be, but craven?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 19, 2012)

DexterTCN said:


> I tell you what. Fuck off and talk to someone else
> 
> I'm not interested, you're a wanker. You're actually worse than a wanker, but hey, it's not my place.


you've still a higher opinion of me than i have of you. tell you what, if you're so offended by me why not put me on ignore?


----------



## Lock&Light (Sep 19, 2012)

cesare said:


> What else would a coward be, but craven?


 
There are degrees of cowardice.


----------



## cesare (Sep 19, 2012)

Lock&Light said:


> There are degrees of cowardice.



Craven isn't a degree of cowardice, it's a synonym of cowardly. In other words, cowardly coward.


----------



## Lock&Light (Sep 19, 2012)

cesare said:


> Craven isn't a degree of cowardice, it's a synonym of cowardly. In other words, cowardly coward.


 
Fascinating, I'm sure.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Sep 19, 2012)

editor said:


> Yeah, I can see that works brilliantly in the US where 63 were killed by guns *last year *compared to only 67 British police officers being killed by firearms between *1900 and 2006* (excluding Northern Ireland).


 
Sarcasm aside, I think a better comparison might be with Canada, where police are armed, but most citizens aren't carrying weapons on the street.

Between 1961 and 2009, 133 Canadian police officers were murdered in the line of duty. 92% were firearms deaths, meaning 122.

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/85-002-x/2010003/article/11354-eng.htm

In the history of the RCMP, from the 1870s to 2011,  222 officers have died in the line of duty from all causes [including things like being thrown from a horse and drowning in a freezing river]. The number also includes officers killed during the Riel Rebellion.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2011/01/07/f-rcmp-deaths-line-of-duty.html


----------



## Lemon Eddy (Sep 19, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> If your cops were armed, probably one of them would be alive, and he'd be dead.


 
I am a fucking gun nut, I really am.  Was taught to shoot from 7, and pretty much have enjoyed guns ever since.  Having moved to the UK, I am one of a very small minority who bothers to keep a firearms certificate.  Did used to shoot pistols prior to Dunblane, still hunt and shoot clay.   Only an idiot would qualify me as an anti-gun type.

I mention this purely to give a background when I say you should think for more than 1 second before writing such nonsense.  For starters, no-one has any idea what actually happened, so talk of a probable outcome if they had guns is clearly fucking bollocks.  Secondly, if we just go by the events as described so far, you have a person with a grenade setting an ambush.  Just what the fuck do you reckon a handgun is going to do there?  All he needs to do is wait upstairs for the police to open a door, drop grenade and shelter, then at his leisure finish the job.  Short of kitting police up with full battle-armour and deploying them to every callout in units of 3 or more with one person standing back then there is no way to prepare for this sort of event.


----------



## cesare (Sep 19, 2012)

Lock&Light said:


> Fascinating, I'm sure.



Yes. Yes, it is.


----------



## Red Storm (Sep 19, 2012)

spliff said:


> Actually I think that if our police were routinely armed there would be less of these 'training accidents' They might understand their weapons better.


 
What about that copper who blasted his colleague with a 12 gauge during training.


----------



## spliff (Sep 19, 2012)

Lock&Light said:


> Are you suggesting that on top of being a craven coward by killing innocent *people* in his spree, he was also too cowardly to make an end of himself?


He killed one person.


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 19, 2012)

Lock&Light said:


> Are you suggesting that on top of being a craven coward by killing innocent people in his spree, he was also too cowardly to make an end of himself?


 
 he was tazreded with a gun in his mouth and his finger on the trigger.that causes muscles to sieze right?

Moat was a roid rage case and if he was going to do himself why did he lead the merriest of chases?


----------



## editor (Sep 19, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Sarcasm aside, I think a better comparison might be with Canada, where police are armed, but most citizens aren't carrying weapons on the street.
> 
> Between 1961 and 2009, 133 Canadian police officers were murdered in the line of duty. 92% were firearms deaths, meaning 122.


And you think that total somehow compares favourably with just 67 cops being killed in way over a century in the UK, yes?


----------



## cesare (Sep 19, 2012)

DotCommunist said:


> he was tazreded with a gun in his mouth and his finger on the trigger.that causes muscles to sieze right?
> 
> Moat was a roid rage case and if he was going to do himself why did he lead the merriest of chases?



"you'll never take me alive, copper!"


----------



## Lemon Eddy (Sep 19, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> i wonder if he'll be receiving treatment for contusions and abrasions suffered in 'a fall down the stairs'.


 
You know, despite it being very justifiable if he was, I doubt it.  I imagine he will have been checked in with full attention to detail, and have suffered little more than physical discomfort from solid cuffs and angry stares.

Let me ask you a straight question.  What was your first response when you heard that two police had died today?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Sep 19, 2012)

Lemon Eddy said:


> I am a fucking gun nut, I really am. Was taught to shoot from 7, and pretty much have enjoyed guns ever since. Having moved to the UK, I am one of a very small minority who bothers to keep a firearms certificate. Did used to shoot pistols prior to Dunblane, still hunt and shoot clay. Only an idiot would qualify me as an anti-gun type.
> 
> I mention this purely to give a background when I say you should think for more than 1 second before writing such nonsense. For starters, no-one has any idea what actually happened, so talk of a probable outcome if they had guns is clearly fucking bollocks. Secondly, if we just go by the events as described so far, you have a person with a grenade setting an ambush. Just what the fuck do you reckon a handgun is going to do there? All he needs to do is wait upstairs for the police to open a door, drop grenade and shelter, then at his leisure finish the job. Short of kitting police up with full battle-armour and deploying them to every callout in units of 3 or more with one person standing back then there is no way to prepare for this sort of event.


 
Sorry to have upset you this much: are you related to one of the cops?


----------



## editor (Sep 19, 2012)

Lemon Eddy said:


> Let me ask you a straight question. What was your first response when you heard that two police had died today?


Good luck with getting a straight answer to that one.


----------



## Red Storm (Sep 19, 2012)

editor said:


> And you think that total somehow compares favourably with just 67 cops being killed in way over a century in the UK, yes?


 
A lot of them were as a result of traffic accidents in some way.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Sep 19, 2012)

editor said:


> And you think that total somehow compares favourably with just 67 cops being killed in way over a century in the UK, yes?


 
I think it is vastly better than the US tally you first put up - yes.


----------



## Lemon Eddy (Sep 19, 2012)

DotCommunist said:


> he was tazreded with a gun in his mouth and his finger on the trigger.that causes muscles to sieze right?
> 
> Moat was a roid rage case and if he was going to do himself why did he lead the merriest of chases?


 
If he wasn't planning on ending himself, why did he put a gun in his mouth and place his finger on the trigger?


----------



## Red Storm (Sep 19, 2012)

Lord Tebbit is now calling for the death penalty for murdering police now too  .


----------



## Lock&Light (Sep 19, 2012)

cesare said:


> Yes. Yes, it is.


 
You make me wonder why you felt it nessessary to deflect from Moat's cowardice with your comments. Is he some sort of hero for you?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Sep 19, 2012)

editor said:


> And you think that total somehow compares favourably with just 67 cops being killed in way over a century in the UK, yes?


 
Btw, do you have figures as to how those UK deaths are spread out during those years, ie, are they spread evenly, or is there a greater per-year frequency as you get closer to the present?


----------



## cesare (Sep 19, 2012)

Lock&Light said:


> You makes me wonder why you felt it nessessary to deflect from Moat's cowardice with your comments. Is he some sort of hero for you?



The only thing that registered with me about your post, was the unusual combination of craven and coward together.


----------



## Lock&Light (Sep 19, 2012)

spliff said:


> He killed one person.


 
I was probably confusing him with that other nut-case on the opposite side of North England around that time. That one really did turn the gun on himself.


----------



## editor (Sep 19, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> I think it is vastly better than the US tally you first put up - yes.


So what is your point here? You seem to be saying that the UK police should strive towards Canada's model and earn itself a far higher death rate as a result.


----------



## spliff (Sep 19, 2012)

Lock&Light said:


> I was probably confusing him with that other nut-case on the opposite side of North England around that time. That one really did turn the gun on himself.


Taxi driver Derrick Bird I think you mean.


----------



## Lock&Light (Sep 19, 2012)

cesare said:


> The only thing that registered with me about your post, was the unusual combination of craven and coward together.


 
Is it getting a little late for you, dear?


----------



## Lemon Eddy (Sep 19, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Sorry to have upset you this much: are you related to one of the cops?


 
No, I am not.  I don't know them from Adam.  I have no friends who know them.  The only person I know of with any connection to them is the poster in this thread, who as far as I know I have not exchanged a single post with.

What angers me is your asinine claim that " _If your cops were armed, probably one of them would be alive, and he'd be dead._ ".  I've outlined why I think that is pure fucking bullshit.  Please feel free to explain just how you think how one of them would have survived if they had guns.  Or fuck off. Fucking off would be fine too.


----------



## Red Storm (Sep 19, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Btw, do you have figures as to how those UK deaths are spread out during those years, ie, are they spread evenly, or is there a greater per-year frequency as you get closer to the present?


 
Even spread.


----------



## Lock&Light (Sep 19, 2012)

spliff said:


> Taxi driver Derrick Bird I think you mean.


 
Indeed.


----------



## spliff (Sep 19, 2012)

editor said:


> And you think that total somehow compares favourably with just 67 cops being killed in way over a century in the UK, yes?


And Canada has about half the UK population.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Sep 19, 2012)

According to this BBC article, 37 of your total police deaths, have occurred in the past two decades.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4451852.stm


----------



## cesare (Sep 19, 2012)

Lock&Light said:


> Is it getting a little late for you, dear?



Not at all, cutiepie.


----------



## DexterTCN (Sep 19, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> I think it is vastly better than the US tally you first put up - yes.


From a Canadian pov, yes.  Not from a UK one, obviously.   Canadians are perfectly justified in the comparison with the US, as is the UK.   The difference between Canada and UK is on a smaller scale and imo only gravitates negatively towards Canada because of its physical proximity to the US.   I think Canada does really well tbh.


----------



## editor (Sep 19, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Btw, do you have figures as to how those UK deaths are spread out during those years, ie, are they spread evenly, or is there a greater per-year frequency as you get closer to the present?


A total of zero were killed by firearms from June 2007 to June 2012.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_British_police_officers_killed_in_the_line_of_duty


----------



## Firky (Sep 19, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> Even spread.


 
There's peaks. Six in the last decade, 3 this year alone. At a quick glance there's no other such peak since the Shepherd's Bush murders of the 60s.


----------



## editor (Sep 19, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> According to this BBC article, 37 of your total police deaths, have occurred in the past two decades.
> 
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4451852.stm


And just 12 of those were shot.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Sep 19, 2012)

editor said:


> So what is your point here? You seem to be saying that the UK police should strive towards Canada's model and earn itself a far higher death rate as a result.


 
I'm saying that from what I can gather, your criminals are increasingly armed, moreso than before; and sending unarmed police officers into harm's way, is irresponsible.


----------



## editor (Sep 19, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> I'm saying that from what I can gather, your criminals are increasingly armed, moreso than before; and sending unarmed police officers into harm's way, is irresponsible.


Are you having trouble understanding the facts that are being posted up or something? Between June 2007 to June 2012, not a single cop in the UK was killed by firearms. Now take a look at what was happening in Canada at the same time and do the maths:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Canadian_Mounted_Police


----------



## JimW (Sep 19, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> I'm saying that from what I can gather, your criminals are increasingly armed, moreso than before; and sending unarmed police officers into harm's way, is irresponsible.


Despite even the police being against it and the figures not backing you up?


----------



## editor (Sep 19, 2012)

I'm not sure where JC2 is getting his facts from, but I do hope he'll make the effort to read and digest these facts from a recent report:


> The murder rate in England and Wales fell by 14% to 550 homicides in 2011-12 – the lowest level since 1983.
> 
> Recorded crime also fell by 4%, continuing the long downward trend in crime since 1995, and dropping below 4m offences for the first time in 23 years.
> 
> ...





> Scottish gun crime falls to 32-year low
> 
> There were 643 offences involving the alleged use of a firearm in Scotland in 2010-11
> Gun crime in Scotland has fallen to a 32-year low, according to the latest official figures.
> ...


----------



## Red Storm (Sep 19, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> I'm saying that from what I can gather, your criminals are increasingly armed, moreso than before; and sending unarmed police officers into harm's way, is irresponsible.


 
Where is your evidence that criminals are increasingly becoming armed (I assume with firearms).


----------



## Stanley Edwards (Sep 19, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> I'm saying that from what I can gather, your criminals are increasingly armed, moreso than before; and sending unarmed police officers into harm's way, is irresponsible.


 

Unarmed police officers is not irresponsible. This and the fact that all UK police have to display an ID number (I hope that is still the case) is what helps maintain respect for the law even when we don't agree with it.

Fucking sad about this, but it is still rare in the UK. If the police carried guns then there would be far more police dying from gunshot wounds. That is indesputable. The reasons are pretty fucking obvious.

The UK has some of the best gun laws in the world. It's fair that those who want to keep guns legally can do under strict control. The guns and arms that have killed these Two women were most probably not legal. Illegal arms are being controlled more effectively in the UK than other countries, but it is getting out of control.

Nowhere near as many deaths from guns in the UK compared to Canada and The States where arms control is no better than toy control.


----------



## xenon (Sep 19, 2012)

Lemon Eddy said:


> I am a fucking gun nut, I really am.  Was taught to shoot from 7, and pretty much have enjoyed guns ever since.  Having moved to the UK, I am one of a very small minority who bothers to keep a firearms certificate.  Did used to shoot pistols prior to Dunblane, still hunt and shoot clay.   Only an idiot would qualify me as an anti-gun type.
> 
> I mention this purely to give a background when I say you should think for more than 1 second before writing such nonsense.  For starters, no-one has any idea what actually happened, so talk of a probable outcome if they had guns is clearly fucking bollocks.  Secondly, if we just go by the events as described so far, you have a person with a grenade setting an ambush.  Just what the fuck do you reckon a handgun is going to do there?  All he needs to do is wait upstairs for the police to open a door, drop grenade and shelter, then at his leisure finish the job.  Short of kitting police up with full battle-armour and deploying them to every callout in units of 3 or more with one person standing back then there is no way to prepare for this sort of event.



Yep. And when attending an apparent break in, with no specific information about an armed intruder. What are they to do. Enter the premises with guns drawn? I can't see that ever going wrong.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Sep 19, 2012)

editor said:


> Are you having trouble understanding the facts that are being posted up or something? Between June 2007 to June 2012, not a single cop in the UK was killed by firearms. Now take a look at what was happening in Canada at the same time and do the maths:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Canadian_Mounted_Police


 
So I'm wrong in the supposition that UK criminals are increasingly carrying firearms?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Sep 19, 2012)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1576406/28-gun-crimes-committed-in-UK-every-day.html

With that kind of frequency, it becomes increasingly likely that your police officers will encounter armed criminals.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Sep 19, 2012)

Stanley Edwards said:


> Fucking sad about this, but it is still rare in the UK. If the police carried guns then there would be far more police dying from gunshot wounds. That is indesputable. The reasons are pretty fucking obvious..


 
Looking at the figures here in Canada, I'd say that it isn't at all obvious.


----------



## Red Storm (Sep 19, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1576406/28-gun-crimes-committed-in-UK-every-day.html
> 
> With that kind of frequency, it becomes increasingly likely that your police officers will encounter armed criminals.


 
Have you got any recent evidence. That is from 4 years ago.


----------



## JimW (Sep 19, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> So I'm wrong in the supposition that UK criminals are increasingly carrying firearms?


No, that does seem to be the case, but still not common and concentrated in certain areas, so police don't think it makes sense to be routinely armed, as would break their model of 'policing by consent'. And not from any fundamental reluctance, as they do have them in the north of Ireland where they can't rely on that.


----------



## Red Storm (Sep 19, 2012)

Stanley Edwards said:


> Unarmed police officers is not irresponsible. This and the fact that all UK police have to display an ID number (I hope that is still the case) is what helps maintain respect for the law even when we don't agree with it.
> 
> Fucking sad about this, but it is still rare in the UK. If the police carried guns then there would be far more police dying from gunshot wounds. That is indesputable. The reasons are pretty fucking obvious.
> 
> ...


 
The police kill enough people when most of them are not armed with firearms. 

It would be open season should they get them. Terrifying.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Sep 19, 2012)

Stanley Edwards said:


> Illegal arms are being controlled more effectively in the UK than other countries, but it is getting out of control..


 
If it's getting out of control, don't you think you should make it possible for those whom you assign the responsibility of keeping you safe, ie the police, to properly protect themselves?


----------



## Stanley Edwards (Sep 19, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Looking at the figures here in Canada, I'd say that it isn't at all obvious.


 
Missed the Canadian figures. Are they on this thread


----------



## editor (Sep 19, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1576406/28-gun-crimes-committed-in-UK-every-day.html
> 
> With that kind of frequency, it becomes increasingly likely that your police officers will encounter armed criminals.


So you're just going to completely ignore a report from a few months ago and post up something from January 2008 instead, yes?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Sep 19, 2012)

Stanley Edwards said:


> Missed the Canadian figures. Are they on this thread


 
Yes, not too far up.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Sep 19, 2012)

editor said:


> So you're just going to completely ignore a report from a few months ago and post up something from January 2008 instead, yes?


 
At least two other people seem to agree that gun crime is on the rise in UK. Of course there can be yearly variation, but the trend seems to be an increase there.

It's your country. But like I said, you expect these people to go in harm's way on your behalf. The least that should be done for them, is to give them the tools to ensure that they can protect themselves in a time when society is changing.


----------



## JimW (Sep 19, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> At least two other people seem to agree that gun crime is on the rise in UK. Of course there can be yearly variation, but the trend seems to be an increase there.
> 
> It's your country. But like I said, you expect these people to go in harm's way on your behalf. The least that should be done for them, is to give them the tools to ensure that they can protect themselves in a time when society is changing.


But the rise is relative from fuck all to a bit here and there and the cops don't want guns. They think it's a tool that will increase their risk.


----------



## Stanley Edwards (Sep 19, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> If it's getting out of control, don't you think you should make it possible for those whom you assign the responsibility of keeping you safe, ie the police, to properly protect themselves?


 
No. That would only encourage criminals to arm themselves with illegal weapons.

As things are, criminals no matter what, don't expect a gun battle over a simple break-in.

I live in Spain where even security guards are armed. All police have guns. Anyone can go and buy a gun for 'recreational use' quite legally. It destroys respect on both sides, and results in a higher risk of death.

Spain has a very tolerant and open street culture. Guns don't seem to be so much of an issue, so perhaps it isn't as simple as more guns = more deaths. I don't know really.


----------



## editor (Sep 19, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> At least two other people seem to agree that gun crime is on the rise in UK.


What two people?

Here's the facts from a recent report. Please try and absorb them because I'm fed up repeating them.


> *Homicide rate falls to lowest level in 30 years as overall crime drops *
> 
> *New figures reveal that the number of killings in England and Wales fell to the lowest level in almost 30 years last year, while the total number of recorded crimes also dropped.*
> 
> ...


----------



## JimW (Sep 19, 2012)

editor said:


> What two people?
> 
> Here's the facts from a recent report. Please try and absorb them because I'm fed up repeating them.


I'm agreeing that seems there's been a rise in gun-related crime, but as I said above from almost non-existent to a bit here and there.


----------



## XR75 (Sep 19, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> If it's getting out of control, don't you think you should make it possible for those whom you assign the responsibility of keeping you safe, ie the police, to properly protect themselves?



On that basis I'll have a machine pistol for having to walk through some shifty areas too then.



Pickman's model said:


> i wonder if he'll be receiving treatment for contusions and abrasions suffered in 'a fall down the stairs'.



Which would retrospectively justify his actions.


----------



## editor (Sep 19, 2012)

JimW said:


> I'm agreeing that seems there's been a rise in gun-related crime, but as I said above from almost non-existent to a bit here and there.


What figures are you basing that on?


----------



## JimW (Sep 19, 2012)

editor said:


> What figures are you basing that on?


I'd have to look it up but I thought I'd read that - I'm not saying killings either (or attacks on police), btw, just a reported rise in gun-related incidents.


----------



## shagnasty (Sep 19, 2012)

New Zealands police also are unarmed would be interesting to see their figures and stats

http://www.crime.co.nz/c-files.aspx?ID=10751


----------



## editor (Sep 19, 2012)

Every report I can find shows a fall in gun related crime.


> *Youth violence falls following London gangs crackdown* [Sept 2012]
> Youth violence was cut by 34%, equating to 1,000 fewer victims, since the launch of the Trident Gang Crime Command in February, the force said.
> 
> Knife injuries involving those under 25 are down 29%, and the times a gun has been fired has dropped by 21%.
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-19462265





> *Firearm Crime Statistics*
> 
> Provisional figures show that 6,285 firearm offences were recorded by the police in the year to September 2011, accounting for 0.2% of all recorded crime. There was a 19% fall in firearm offences in the year to September 2011, compared to the previous year.
> 
> ...


----------



## JimW (Sep 19, 2012)

Quick Google get this BBC story from 2008: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6960431.stm

Looks like a significant-ish rise from the 90s then plateauing and even falling:





So not exactly what I thought and could well be wrong altogether.


----------



## JimW (Sep 19, 2012)

editor said:


> Every report I can find shows a fall in gun related crime.


Fair enough, see my last above. Still think the longer trend was maybe a rise but not massive and has peaked, which that thing I found seems to confirm. No cause for panic or a massive change in policing tactics, anyhow.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Sep 19, 2012)

Stanley Edwards said:


> No. That would only encourage criminals to arm themselves with illegal weapons.
> 
> As things are, criminals no matter what, don't expect a gun battle over a simple break-in.


 
Guns cost a lot of money. Your average street addict who's doing the B&Es down the block can't afford a gun and if they had that kind of money,they'd buy drugs with it. Whether the cops are armed or not, that won't change.

I can't speak for the US, as I think it's its own special case. Here, the low level criminals aren't armed; but the increase in drug activity means that there are more of the higher-level criminals who do carry guns. They're the ones in the SUVs and the BMWs. Their primary reason for arming themselves is to protect themselves from each other. I'm sure it's the same in your country.

But the increase of guns at that level means a greater risk to police.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Sep 19, 2012)

JimW said:


> Quick Google get this BBC story from 2008: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6960431.stm
> 
> Looks like a significant-ish rise from the 90s then plateauing and even falling:
> 
> ...


 
What I see in that graph is a slow but steady rise, with an anomalous year at the end.


----------



## Stanley Edwards (Sep 19, 2012)

shagnasty said:


> New Zealands police also are unarmed would be interesting to see their figures and stats
> 
> http://www.crime.co.nz/c-files.aspx?ID=10751


 
Good graphs. Can't argue with them.


----------



## JimW (Sep 19, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> What I see in that graph is a slow but steady rise, with an anomalous year at the end.


But ed's more recent data shows it continuing to fall and the total number of crimes is still miniscule AFAIK.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Sep 19, 2012)

Stanley Edwards said:


> I live in Spain where even security guards are armed. All police have guns. Anyone can go and buy a gun for 'recreational use' quite legally. It destroys respect on both sides, and results in a higher risk of death.
> 
> Spain has a very tolerant and open street culture. Guns don't seem to be so much of an issue, so perhaps it isn't as simple as more guns = more deaths. I don't know really.


 

You seem to be saying two different things here. The first talks of the proliferation of guns in Spain; the second talks about how guns don't seem to be an issue. But I thing you got it right at the end: more guns = more deaths is too simplistic.


----------



## Stanley Edwards (Sep 19, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Guns cost a lot of money. Your average street addict who's doing the B&Es down the block can't afford a gun and if they had that kind of money,they'd buy drugs with it. Whether the cops are armed or not, that won't change.
> 
> I can't speak for the US, as I think it's its own special case. Here, the low level criminals aren't armed; but the increase in drug activity means that there are more of the higher-level criminals who do carry guns. They're the ones in the SUVs and the BMWs. Their primary reason for arming themselves is to protect themselves from each other. I'm sure it's the same in your country.
> 
> But the increase of guns at that level means a greater risk to police.


 
Illegal guns are 2 a Penny in the UK. They might be old and from Russia, but they still work.


----------



## Lemon Eddy (Sep 19, 2012)

editor said:


> A total of zero were killed by firearms from June 2007 to June 2012.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_British_police_officers_killed_in_the_line_of_duty


 
And that's missing the bigger point.  It's a knock on effect, as the US (and to a lesser extent Canada) demonstrates.  There are few police shot, because generally very few criminals carry guns...because they don't expect the police to shoot at them.  If criminals aren't carrying, then average people are far less likely to be shot (either through acts of crime, or shootouts between criminals and police).  Everyone wins!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate makes it pretty clear.  Gun deaths per 100,000 people:

US has 4.14 homicides and 0.23 accidental
Canada has 0.76 homicides and 0.22 accidental 
Scotland has 0.19 homicides and 0.02 accidental
England & Wales have 0.07 homicides and 0.01 accidental

Scotland, by the way, has a much higher level of gun ownership per capita, mostly down to farming and hunting.

It takes a rare mind to look at these figures, and then conclude that Britain can learn from Canada and the US on safe gun policies.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Sep 19, 2012)

editor said:


> What two people?
> 
> Here's the facts from a recent report. Please try and absorb them because I'm fed up repeating them.


 


editor said:


> What two people?
> 
> Here's the facts from a recent report. Please try and absorb them because I'm fed up repeating them.


 
Most telling from your bolded quote:



> * last year*


Great. There's been a drop for one year. Not really evidence of any sort of trend, though.


----------



## XR75 (Sep 19, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> But the increase of guns at that level means a greater risk to police.



Arming the police poses a greater risk to the public, although plenty of our police are armed in a secretive manner.
What's japans situation regarding police armament?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Sep 19, 2012)

Stanley Edwards said:


> Illegal guns are 2 a Penny in the UK. They might be old and from Russia, but they still work.


 
I don't believe it. There are way more available guns here and in the US, and in neither country do they cost 'two for a penny'


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Sep 19, 2012)

XR75 said:


> Arming the police poses a greater risk to the public, although plenty of our police are armed in a secretive manner.
> What's japans situation regarding police armament?


 
Japanese police are armed.


----------



## Lemon Eddy (Sep 19, 2012)

JimW said:


> Despite even the police being against it and the figures not backing you up?


 
Oh, let's not let a little thing like empirical evidence and the opinion of those with most experience stand in the way of posturing!


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Sep 19, 2012)

shagnasty said:


> New Zealands police also are unarmed would be interesting to see their figures and stats
> 
> http://www.crime.co.nz/c-files.aspx?ID=10751


 
...but Australian police are, as are the police of most European countries.


----------



## JimW (Sep 19, 2012)

Lemon Eddy said:


> Oh, let's not let a little thing like empirical evidence and the opinion of those with most experience stand in the way of posturing!


Pshaw, you can prove anything with _facts._


----------



## spliff (Sep 19, 2012)

Johnny, The police don't want to be armed, the population ('cepting Mail readers) don't want them to be armed so leave it or I'll demand all Mounties ride horses.


----------



## xenon (Sep 19, 2012)

If legal firearms were widely held in the UK, it might make more sense to routinely arm the police. As it stands, some criminals are armed as are some Poolice. For every Derek Bird that might have got shot by a routinely armed unit before he could continue his killing spre. How many more incidents of lethal accidents from Police weapons, would we have. How many more criminals would take up arms, leading the only section of society unarmed, the law abiding, mostly urban majority. And, no I'm not making an argument for everyone to have the right to 
bear arms.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Sep 19, 2012)

Lemon Eddy said:


> And that's missing the bigger point. It's a knock on effect, as the US (and to a lesser extent Canada) demonstrates. There are few police shot, because generally very few criminals carry guns...because they don't expect the police to shoot at them. .


 
Criminals don't arm themselves in order to get in gun battles with police. Usually it's to protect themselves from other criminals. Even most criminals realize that a gun battle with the police is a serious losing proposition. But the increase in gun incidence amongst criminals, will mean that there are more incidents where police and armed criminals end up interacting.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Sep 19, 2012)

Lemon Eddy said:


> And that's missing the bigger point. It's a knock on effect, as the US (and to a lesser extent Canada) demonstrates. There are few police shot, because generally very few criminals carry guns...because they don't expect the police to shoot at them. If criminals aren't carrying, then average people are far less likely to be shot (either through acts of crime, or shootouts between criminals and police). Everyone wins!
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate makes it pretty clear. Gun deaths per 100,000 people:
> 
> ...


 
I haven't suggested here that you should make gun ownership easier for the population.


----------



## Stanley Edwards (Sep 19, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> You seem to be saying two different things here. The first talks of the proliferation of guns in Spain; the second talks about how guns don't seem to be an issue. But I thing you got it right at the end: more guns = more deaths is too simplistic.


 
Just to clarify; I'm British. I have lived in Spain for 7+ years.

Violence is an absolute no, no, no here (in Spain). I think the very open, and IMO very healthy street culture counts for much. However, there are many other factors. I don't know what they might be.

Many Spanish towns that accommodated lots of UK expats experienced a severe rise in violent crime. My only encounter with gun threat was in Spain from an expat. Sad fuck who had convinced his mother to sell her retirement bungalow so that he could play at being a gangster. He fired his pistol outside my bedroom window at 4am, so I let him know in no uncertain terms he better have the bollocks to use it if crunch came to crunch. I had done nothing to provoke this.

In the UK guns were very much part of the 'low level' gangster culture. But, you could choose to stay away from that very easily.

Gun enthusiasts had to keep their registered weaponary under lock and key. They were responsible 100% for their gun, so if it killed anyone, they paid the price.

It is very complicated, and I don't have the answer, but it seems the UK is getting it right despite yesterdays sad happening.

I hate guns. I hate to see police with guns. I hate to see hunters with guns. I hate to see soldiers with guns. I hate to see bullies with guns. I hate to see anyone with a gun. They're here. they're deadly. Seems to me some countries governments are handling them better than others.


----------



## editor (Sep 19, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Most telling from your bolded quote:
> Great. There's been a drop for one year. Not really evidence of any sort of trend, though.


How does this graph look for you, Johnny? See any kind of trend?



http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/compareyears/280/number_of_homicides_any_method


----------



## editor (Sep 19, 2012)

Here's the graph for gun homicides only.  Sure looks to be a bit of a trend there too. 


http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/compareyears/280/number_of_gun_homicides


----------



## Lemon Eddy (Sep 19, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> ...but Australian police are, as are the police of most European countries.


 
Would you fucking kindly have a fucking look at the fucking list posted above of firearm deaths by country, there's a fucking chap. Fuck it, if scrolling up is too much like hard work, here it is again:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

From your list of countries in your post, here are the ones with higher gun death rates than the UK:

Australia
Finland
Switzerland
France
Austria
Norway
Portugal
Belgium
Italy
Denmark
Sweden
Germany
Greece
Ireland
Spain
Netherlands

Now, I am fucking curious. Which country is the UK meant to learn from on effective gun policy. Go on, be a sport. You name a country that's doing it better. Because as fuck is my witness, your precious Canada (a country that I truly bloody love by the way) has way more to learn about safe gun policy than the UK does.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Sep 19, 2012)

There are drawbacks. I got stopped a couple of months ago for not wearing a seatbelt. The lights go on, I pull over. The two cops get out, one comes to my window.

I look in the mirror, and I can see the other cop behind and to the other side: she has her hand on her gun.

She has her hand on her fucking gun for a seatbelt stop.

I didn't get shot. Hell, I'm a fine, upstanding citizen. 

But it makes you think. You're in an interaction with two people, both of whom have guns. If something were to go seriously off the rails, the possibility of my death resulting, exists.

It was a sobering thought.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Sep 19, 2012)

Lemon Eddy said:


> Would you fucking kindly have a fucking look at the fucking list posted above of firearm deaths by country, there's a fucking chap. Fuck it, if scrolling up is too much like hard work, here it is again:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate
> 
> ...


 
Because fucking fucking fucking fucking fucking fuck.

Do I fucking make myself fucking clear?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Sep 19, 2012)

When I see that bullshit, I stop reading your post.


----------



## xenon (Sep 19, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Because fucking fucking fucking fucking fucking fuck.
> 
> Do I fucking make myself fucking clear?



That's a bit of a graceless way to conceed the point.


----------



## spliff (Sep 19, 2012)

OK Johnny these two police officers go to a house which they have been told there may have been a burglary probably phoned in by the local neighbourhood busybody. Should they approach with guns drawn and ready? It may be squatters it may be a cat.

Do you have any figures for citizens killed by police in Canada? you may well have posted something already but I'm getting tired. It's 2am.


----------



## Lemon Eddy (Sep 19, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> Because fucking fucking fucking fucking fucking fuck.
> 
> Do I fucking make myself fucking clear?


 
Oh dear.  You were unable to parse the above because it contained swearing!  I do of course apologise for offending your delicate sensibilities.  Let me post a JC friendly version:



Johnny Canuck3 said:


> ...but Australian police are, as are the police of most European countries.


 
Would you kindly have a look at the list posted above of firearm deaths by country, there's a chap. Darn it, if scrolling up is too much like hard work, here it is again:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

From your list of countries in your post, here are the ones with higher gun death rates than the UK:

Australia
Finland
Switzerland
France
Austria
Norway
Portugal
Belgium
Italy
Denmark
Sweden
Germany
Greece
Ireland
Spain
Netherlands

Now, I am rather curious. Which country is the UK meant to learn from on effective gun policy. Go on, be a sport. You name a country that's doing it better. Because as gosh is my witness, your precious Canada (a country that I truly darned love by the way) has way more to learn about safe gun policy than the UK does.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Sep 19, 2012)

xenon said:


> That's a bit of a graceless way to conceed the point.


 
I didn't read his post.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Sep 19, 2012)

spliff said:


> OK Johnny these two police officers go to a house which they have been told there may have been a burglary probably phoned in by the local neighbourhood busybody. Should they approach with guns drawn and ready? It may be squatters it may be a cat.
> 
> Do you have any figures for citizens killed by police in Canada? you may well have posted something already but I'm getting tired. It's 2am.


 
I would if I was a cop. Average cop, probably in their thirties or forties, a wife and couple of kids at home, doing a job.

I wouldn't want to die in your scenario if I was a cop, especially since that scenario probably gets played over and over, every week.


----------



## spliff (Sep 19, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> I would if I was a cop. Average cop, probably in their thirties or forties, a wife and couple of kids at home, doing a job.
> 
> I wouldn't want to die in your scenario if I was a cop, especially since that scenario probably gets played over and over, every week.


What about the second part of my question?


----------



## Lemon Eddy (Sep 19, 2012)

Now that your particular aversion to swearing has been identified, it becomes clear why you had to avoid answering my previous question.  Let me present a suitably sanitised translation:

"I am a true gun nut, I really am. Was taught to shoot from 7, and pretty much have enjoyed guns ever since. Having moved to the UK, I am one of a very small minority who bothers to keep a firearms certificate. Did used to shoot pistols prior to Dunblane, still hunt and shoot clay. Only a darned fool would qualify me as an anti-gun type.

I mention this purely to give a background when I say you should think for more than 1 second before writing such nonsense. For starters, no-one has any idea what actually happened, so talk of a probable outcome if they had guns is clearly very silly. Secondly, if we just go by the events as described so far, you have a person with a grenade setting an ambush. Just what the flip do you reckon a handgun is going to do there? All he needs to do is wait upstairs for the police to open a door, drop grenade and shelter, then at his leisure finish the job. Short of kitting police up with full battle-armour and deploying them to every callout in units of 3 or more with one person standing back then there is no way to prepare for this sort of event."

I await your informed response with eager anticipation.


----------



## Lemon Eddy (Sep 19, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> I didn't read his post.


 
Well gosh, now there's a squeaky clean version just waiting for you.


----------



## xenon (Sep 19, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> I would if I was a cop. Average cop, probably in their thirties or forties, a wife and couple of kids at home, doing a job.
> 
> I wouldn't want to die in your scenario if I was a cop, especially since that scenario probably gets played over and over, every week.



Attending a domestic burglary with a firearm drawn sounds like a good way of getting someone killed. Door's open, Police enter shout warnings. It was a neighbour that phoned them. Burglar has already left. The house is dark. Meanwhile the householder's come back. Just got in. Maybe carrying an umbrella. Rolled up newspaper. Turns to Police when hear's the shout...


----------



## xenon (Sep 19, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> I didn't read his post.



You should. It's kinda pertinant.


----------



## Lemon Eddy (Sep 19, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> i wonder if he'll be receiving treatment for contusions and abrasions suffered in 'a fall down the stairs'.


 
On the subject of people not answering questions, I note that you never replied, so let me repeat a post/question:




> You know, despite it being very justifiable if he was, I doubt it. I imagine he will have been checked in with full attention to detail, and have suffered little more than physical discomfort from solid cuffs and angry stares.
> 
> Let me ask you a straight question. What was your first response when you heard that two police had died today?


----------



## Lemon Eddy (Sep 19, 2012)

xenon said:


> Attending a domestic burglary with a firearm drawn sounds like a good way of getting someone killed. Door's open, Police enter shout warnings. It was a neighbour that phoned them. Burglar has already left. The house is dark. Meanwhile the householder's come back. Just got in. Maybe carrying an umbrella. Rolled up newspaper. Turns to Police when hear's the shout...


 

Completely fucking agree.  It's a funny thing really.  Most of my fellow gun nuts all agree that they were taught the same mantra.  You never draw a gun you don't intend to use, and never point it at anything you don't want dead.  Hell, the bible of gun safety was written by a true shooter named Jeff Cooper:

All guns are always loaded.
Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target.
Be sure of your target and what is beyond it.
And as far as I was taught it, points 2 & 3 really do not rest well with a police officer attending a routine call to a possible crime scene with drawn weapons sweeping room corners.


----------



## spliff (Sep 19, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> I would if I was a cop. Average cop, probably in their thirties or forties, a wife and couple of kids at home, doing a job.
> 
> I wouldn't want to die in your scenario if I was a cop, especially since that scenario probably gets played over and over, every week.


That scenario _is_ probably played out frequently and because 90% of British householders do not bear arms means that generally neither do the police.
We like it that way.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Sep 19, 2012)

There's not much chance of any of you getting shot over there, nor is there of me getting shot over here, even though every cop has a handgun and every cop car has a shotgun in the trunk.

But from what I've learned on here and elsewhere, the threads about urbanites being robbed in the streets, the reports of knife crime, assaults in the subway etc, I think I can safely say that not  only am I less afraid on the streets of my city, I'm also in less actual peril on the streets of my city; same goes for Toronto, a much larger place. Hard to determine exactly how effective this 'policing by consent' model, actually is.


----------



## Lemon Eddy (Sep 19, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> But from what I've learned on here and elsewhere, the threads about urbanites being robbed in the streets, the reports of knife crime, assaults in the subway etc, I think I can safely say that not only am I less afraid on the streets of my city, I'm also in less actual peril on the streets of my city; same goes for Toronto, a much larger place. Hard to determine exactly how effective this 'policing by consent' model, actually is.


 
1)  Anecdote != evidence.
2)  Overall levels of crime for a country will be determined more by social causes than gun policy.
3)  I note you're avoiding replying to even the wholesome edition of my post, so I take it you've got no response


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 19, 2012)

Johnny seems to be missing the point that Canada has around 1/2 the population of the UK, spread out over a far, far greater area. With that in mind, the numbers of British coppers shot dead is tiny compared to Canadian ones.

And he seems to studiously ignore the fact that British police _do not wish to be routinely armed_. They probably know what's best for them, better than JC does. 

.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 19, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> Lord Tebbit is now calling for the death penalty for murdering police now too  .


 

Proof, if proof were neeeded that those who call for the death penalty are clueless morons.


----------



## albionism (Sep 19, 2012)

Tebbit does that every time a police officer is killed.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 19, 2012)

albionism said:


> Tebbit does that every time a police officer is killed.


 
"there had been "far too many killings" recently where it was impossible not to wonder if the threat of an "early dawn walk to the gallows" would have changed the actions of the perpetrator"


----------



## likesfish (Sep 19, 2012)

Perhaps in this case cunt was pretty keen to hand himself if rather than be shot while trying to,surrender or committed suicde when cornered. Even if it was two in the back of the head *

I have no problem with murderous fucks being killed while attempting to surrender just think the whole cold blooded executiom after trial is rather too sadestic.

It was averaging about one copper a year being killed on duty we have had 3 this year already pick,ans gone off to wank at the news obviously.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 19, 2012)

likesfish said:


> Perhaps in this case cunt was pretty keen to hand himself if rather than be shot while trying to,surrender or committed suicde when cornered. Even if it was two in the back of the head *
> 
> I have no problem with murderous fucks being killed while attempting to surrender just think the whole cold blooded executiom after trial is rather too sadestic.
> 
> It was averaging about one copper a year being killed on duty we have had 3 this year already pick,ans gone off to wank at the news obviously.


3? it's not worth half a stiffy. give me a dead psu and you might be talking.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 19, 2012)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Proof, if proof were neeeded that those who call for the death penalty are clueless morons.


i've always been in favour of the death penalty for people like norman tebbit.


----------



## Andrew Hertford (Sep 19, 2012)

Well at least he admits he's a wanker.


----------



## editor (Sep 19, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> i've always been in favour of the death penalty for people like norman tebbit.


Have you really?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 19, 2012)

Andrew Hertford said:


> Well at least he admits he's a wanker.


when did norman tebbit say that?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 19, 2012)

editor said:


> Have you really?


no, i thought i'd say it to boost my post count


----------



## editor (Sep 19, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> no, i thought i'd say it to boost my post count


So you're really for the death penalty then? Oh, OK.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 19, 2012)

editor said:


> So you're really for the death penalty then? Oh, OK.


i did think that the repeated postings of pictures of people getting guillotined might have given this away some years ago. you're not really on the ball today, are you? i have posted repeatedly on this subject, which if you pursue the posts will show you my nuanced position.


----------



## editor (Sep 19, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> i did think that the repeated postings of pictures of people getting guillotined might have given this away some years ago.


How you get your kicks is up to you, but you have rather given yourself away in the last couple of posts.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 19, 2012)

editor said:


> How you get your kicks is up to you, but you have rather given yourself away in the last couple of posts.


what have i 'given away'?


----------



## Lock&Light (Sep 19, 2012)

editor said:


> How you get your kicks is up to you, but you have rather given yourself away in the last couple of posts.


 
Just the last couple of posts?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 19, 2012)

*taps watch*


----------



## _angel_ (Sep 19, 2012)

editor said:


> How you get your kicks is up to you, but you have rather given yourself away in the last couple of posts.


I'd give it up to be honest. The "anarchist" perspective really shows itself up on these threads. Yeah they want the death penalty for murderers, except the police. Yet how do we catch these murderers without the police?
Except when they support nutcases who keep chopped off heads in their fridge of course.
No wonder everyone laughs at them.


----------



## Lock&Light (Sep 19, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> what have i 'given away'?


 
An open window looking into your inate nastiness.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 19, 2012)

_angel_ said:


> I'd give it up to be honest. The "anarchist" perspective really shows itself up on these threads. Yeah they want the death penalty for murderers, except the police. Yet how do we catch these murderers without the police?
> Except when they support nutcases who keep chopped off heads in their fridge of course.
> No wonder everyone laughs at them.


yes cos all anarchists share all views and they all think bowden was a top man 

i have never said i want, and i do not believe in, the death penalty for murderers. indeed, i don't believe the death penalty is fair and just in a capitalist society.


----------



## cesare (Sep 19, 2012)

_angel_ said:


> I'd give it up to be honest. The "anarchist" perspective really shows itself up on these threads. Yeah they want the death penalty for murderers, except the police. Yet how do we catch these murderers without the police?
> Except when they support nutcases who keep chopped off heads in their fridge of course.
> No wonder everyone laughs at them.




Loads of anarchists went bloody spare about Bowden


----------



## el-ahrairah (Sep 19, 2012)

i'm sure it's already been said, and this whole thing is very sad and all life is sacred and whatnot, but _a grenade!  He killed a cop with a grenade!  _That's some proper Grand Theft Auto shit right there.  No Rauol Moat nonsense, this loon was probably trying to find a missile launcher to take down the helicopters.  Lets hope he is kept somewhere very secure for a very long time.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 19, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> so how many is a pair of braces?????? i gotta say i use the word brace as meaning two as in 'a brace of sausages,' 'a brace of ales' etc.


 
A "pair of braces" would be "four".

Or something to hold your trousers up.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 19, 2012)

Lock&Light said:


> An open window looking into your inate nastiness.


you don't give away your innate nastiness, you force it down people's throats.


----------



## Lock&Light (Sep 19, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> you don't give away your innate nastiness, you force it down people's throats.


 
Really?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 19, 2012)

Lock&Light said:


> Really?


really.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 19, 2012)

Balbi said:


> Firearm and grenade used to kill two officers. Thanks to gun control laws, this event is rare.


 
Sorry mate, but it's absolutely *no* thanks to gun control laws (we have a massive problem with illegal firearms in the UK), it's down to most criminals thinking fairly rationally.



> Arming officers means that criminals will be more likely to be armed. Let's not go down that road.


 
Not just more likely that criminals will carry, but more likely that criminals will also *use* firearms to avoid capture, with a greater possibility of harm not just to the coppers, but (more importantly IMO) to passers-by.



> I feel sorry for their families and friends, when a simple routine check leads to this.


 
Particularly sad that's it's the same force that lost another uniform WPC to some cunt with a gun a couple of years ago.


----------



## editor (Sep 19, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> i have never said i want, and i do not believe in, the death penalty for murderers. indeed, i don't believe the death penalty is fair and just in a capitalist society.


Make your mind up.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 19, 2012)

editor said:


> Make your mind up.


not worth waiting for. as i posted above, i have a rather nuanced view of the death penalty, it's not as simple as 'you're either for it (always) or against it (always)'.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Sep 19, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> so how many is a pair of braces?????? i gotta say i use the word brace as meaning two as in 'a brace of sausages,' 'a brace of ales' etc.


Got to say, I've been known to as well.....I don't think there is any negative or violent connotation, it's just a figure of speech.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 19, 2012)

Andrew Hertford said:


> Couldn't you just once acknowledge that this was a nasty and vicious murder carried out against two innocent people?


 
Perhaps he's worried that if he does, you'll compare it to _Kristallnacht_?


----------



## 8ball (Sep 19, 2012)

Putting in the death penalty for killing coppers means once someone has shot one you're going to have to keep sending coppers til they run out bullets.

Maybe Tebbit is secretly ACAB...


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 19, 2012)

_angel_ said:


> The "anarchist" perspective really shows itself up on these threads.
> 
> No wonder everyone laughs at them.



The "anarchist perspective" being however you interpret anything pickmans has to say, and "everyone" being yourself?


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 19, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> not worth waiting for. as i posted above, i have a rather nuanced view of the death penalty, it's not as simple as 'you're either for it (always) or against it (always)'.



As the death penalty is something enacted by the state, surely the anarchist position is to be against it (always)?


----------



## Andrew Hertford (Sep 19, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> what have i 'given away'?


 
That you like to jerk off over the deaths of coppers?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 19, 2012)

Andrew Hertford said:


> That you like to jerk off over the deaths of coppers?


as i said, a couple rolling a seven's not enough for a semi, perhaps if 21 were to die.


----------



## Lock&Light (Sep 19, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Got to say, I've been known to as well.....I don't think there is any negative or violent connotation, it's just a figure of speech.


 
Used in the context of two police officers being shot, the wonder is that Pickmans didn't add the word 'bagged' to his use of 'brace'.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 19, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> The Turkish woman and black people who were lynched will be touched by your support for the rule of law....


 
...The rule of law that didn't protect them.

Of course, that probably hasn't even occurred to him.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 19, 2012)

Lock&Light said:


> Used in the context of two police officers being shot, the wonder is that Pickmans didn't add the word 'bagged' to his use of 'brace'.


did he use a shotgun y/n


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 19, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> As the death penalty is something enacted by the state, surely the anarchist position is to be against it (always)?


is it? is it? do you think the spanish anarchists or makhno's men were justified in killing eg spies?

the death penalty applied in cold blood to (for example) spies or reactionary elements (by which i mean people like the soi-disant windsors) doesn't, to my mind, need a state to be if not lawful then moral.


----------



## likesfish (Sep 19, 2012)

Much as I'd like a rifle and a pistol for some casual target practice I'm rather glad its quite bothersome to get a firearm in this country. Keeps a lot of people who shouldnt have access to firearms disarmed.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 19, 2012)

likesfish said:


> Much as I'd like a rifle and a pistol for some casual target practice I'm rather glad its quite bothersome to get a firearm in this country. Keeps a lot of people who shouldnt have access to firearms disarmed.


of course people can easily lay their hands on a weapon if they go down the shop and pick up a knife, or go to a pub and get a bottle: and in many cases it's a piece of piss to lay hands on a dodgy firearm, which most of us could do in a couple of hours if we set our minds to it.

plus it's not beyond the wit of man to get a crossbow pretty fucking easily.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 19, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> is it? is it? do you think the spanish anarchists or makhno's men were justified in killing eg spies?



I'd need to read up on the background. Was it as a result of some people's court? There's other options than the death penalty that i'd definitely explore. Although i guess anarchists aren't really in the position of setting up labour camps.  people should also be able to defend themselves from external attacks.


----------



## Dan U (Sep 19, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> is it? is it? do you think the spanish anarchists or makhno's men were justified in killing eg spies?
> 
> the death penalty applied in cold blood to (for example) spies or reactionary elements (by which i mean people like the soi-disant windsors) doesn't, to my mind, need a state to be if not lawful then moral.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 19, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> There are drawbacks. I got stopped a couple of months ago for not wearing a seatbelt. The lights go on, I pull over. The two cops get out, one comes to my window.
> 
> I look in the mirror, and I can see the other cop behind and to the other side: she has her hand on her gun.
> 
> ...


 
Hands-on is SOP.
Not being psychic cops, they can't tell if the idiot they're about to ticket for not wearing a seatbelt isn't going to pull a gun and try to kill them After all, you could be all sorts of insane.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 19, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> I would if I was a cop. Average cop, probably in their thirties or forties, a wife and couple of kids at home, doing a job.
> 
> I wouldn't want to die in your scenario if I was a cop, especially since that scenario probably gets played over and over, every week.


 
Hands-on means you can draw quickly if necessary. Going in guns drawn introduces a whole set of problems around accidental discharge. You shouldn't draw until absolutely necessary.


----------



## barney_pig (Sep 19, 2012)

different killings get different results- kill a copper, go down for life. kill an old man get £15,000 a year for the rest of your life


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 19, 2012)

Dan U said:


>


Don't judge everyone by your own base standards.


----------



## editor (Sep 19, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> not worth waiting for. as i posted above, i have a rather nuanced view of the death penalty, it's not as simple as 'you're either for it (always) or against it (always)'.


So you "don't believe the death penalty is fair and just in a capitalist society," but that doesn't matter because you've "always been in favour of the death penalty" for some people that you don't like. Great stuff, Pickmans!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 19, 2012)

Lemon Eddy said:


> Completely fucking agree. It's a funny thing really. Most of my fellow gun nuts all agree that they were taught the same mantra. You never draw a gun you don't intend to use and never point it at anything you don't want dead. Hell, the bible of gun safety was written by a true shooter named Jeff Cooper:
> 
> All guns are always loaded.
> Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
> ...


 
"Finger off trigger until ready to fire" was the first and foremost piece of firearms safety I was taught (I wasn't even allowed any ammo until I had that ingrained). One of the reasons I've turned down game shoots for about the last 20 years (besides my health) is that too many "day shooters" haven't got a cocking clue about safety, or even what the pull on their gun is.


----------



## Dan U (Sep 19, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> Don't judge everyone by your own base standards.


 
but you are, times infinity.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 19, 2012)

el-ahrairah said:


> i'm sure it's already been said, and this whole thing is very sad and all life is sacred and whatnot, but _a grenade! He killed a cop with a grenade! _That's some proper Grand Theft Auto shit right there. No Rauol Moat nonsense, this loon was probably trying to find a missile launcher to take down the helicopters. Lets hope he is kept somewhere very secure for a very long time.


 
Let's also hope someone finds out where the fuck the grenades came from and closes down that line of supply.


----------



## Lemon Eddy (Sep 19, 2012)

barney_pig said:


> different killings get different results- kill a copper, go down for life. kill an old man get £15,000 a year for the rest of your life


Eh?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 19, 2012)

editor said:


> So you "don't believe the death penalty is fair and just in a capitalist society," but that doesn't matter because you've "always been in favour of the death penalty" for some people that you don't like. Great stuff, Pickmans!



As I thought i'd made clear, the death penalty is (and always has been) a political nore than a judicial sanction.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 19, 2012)

8ball said:


> Putting in the death penalty for killing coppers means once someone has shot one you're going to have to keep sending coppers til they run out bullets.
> 
> Maybe Tebbit is secretly ACAB...


 
Tebbit is very obviously APAB (All People Are Bastards).


----------



## editor (Sep 19, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> As I thought i'd made clear, the death penalty is (and always has been) a political nore...


It's a sandbank?


> The Nore is a sandbank at the mouth of the Thames Estuary, England. It marks the point where the River Thames meets the North Sea, roughly halfway between Havengore Creek in Essex and Warden Point in Kent.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 19, 2012)

Dan U said:


> but you are, times infinity.


Because...


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 19, 2012)

editor said:


> It's a sandbank?


Very droll. It's just like you to pick up on a typo instead of addressing the point.


----------



## Lemon Eddy (Sep 19, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Let's also hope someone finds out where the fuck the grenades came from and closes down that line of supply.


 
http://gizmodo.com/5927379/the-secret-online-weapons-store-thatll-sell-anyone-anything


----------



## editor (Sep 19, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> Very droll. It's just like you to pick up on a typo instead of addressing the point.


That sure is _mighty rich_ coming from you. LOL.


----------



## Lock&Light (Sep 19, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> Very droll. It's just like you to pick up on a typo instead of addressing the point.


 
Look who's talking!


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 19, 2012)

editor said:


> That sure is _mighty rich_ coming from you. LOL.


Yeh, if you believe that show me a post where i've behaved as you've just done.


----------



## JimW (Sep 19, 2012)

Lemon Eddy said:


> Eh?


Took it to be a reference to the killer of Ian Tomlinson, who will be keeping his police pension.


----------



## editor (Sep 19, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh, if you believe that show me a post where i've behaved as you've just done.


I'll let other people decide for themselves because I'm bored shitless with your endless wriggling, and there's far more interesting things to talk about than your deeply confused, endlessly obfuscating, toytown political waffle.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 19, 2012)

editor said:


> I'll let other people decide for themselves because I'm bored shitless with your endless wriggling, and there's far more interesting things to talk about than your deeply confused, endlessly obfuscating, toytown political waffle.


which is doubtless why you've been on at me from the start of the thread. It's typical of you, you pursue people then announce you're bored shitless. I don't know why you bother starting this sort of discussion when you've such a limited attention span.


----------



## Andrew Hertford (Sep 19, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> which is doubtless why you've been on at me from the start of the thread. It's typical of you, you pursue people then announce you're bored shitless. I don't know why you bother starting this sort of discussion when you've such a limited attention span.


 
Did you really think that a posh boy smirking over the murder of two working class women was going to go unchallenged?


----------



## el-ahrairah (Sep 19, 2012)

yeah, jesus christ.  i mean, someone could get hurt FFS.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 19, 2012)

Andrew Hertford said:


> Did you really think that a posh boy smirking over the murder of two working class women was going to go unchallenged?


bit late to go down that path, my old china


----------



## agricola (Sep 19, 2012)

JimW said:


> Took it to be a reference to the killer of Ian Tomlinson, who will be keeping his police pension.


 
Strictly speaking, he will be keeping what little bit of a pension he managed to accumulate whilst he was a police officer - which will mean around £7,000 a year from the age of 60.


----------



## _angel_ (Sep 19, 2012)

I've never been sure what we are meant to replace the police with exactly. Of course I want a way of keeping bastards like the guy who got away with murdering that old guy  out of the police. The fact he'd already left to avoid a disciplinary is bad enough, but what is the replacement.... particularly higher up the line ie detectives with expertise etc.


----------



## cesare (Sep 19, 2012)

_angel_ said:


> I've never been sure what we are meant to replace the police with exactly. Of course I want a way of keeping bastards like the guy who got away with murdering that old guy  out of the police. The fact he'd already left to avoid a disciplinary is bad enough, but what is the replacement.... particularly higher up the line ie detectives with expertise etc.


Which old guy is this?


----------



## _angel_ (Sep 19, 2012)

cesare said:


> Which old guy is this?


thingie, maybe he wasn't all that old..


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 19, 2012)

tomlinson wasn't old  -mid thirties iirc


----------



## Firky (Sep 19, 2012)

DotCommunist said:


> tomlinson wasn't old -mid thirties iirc


 
Tomlinson had a fucking hard paper round if he was in his thirties. He's be closer to sixty than thirty.


----------



## cesare (Sep 19, 2012)

_angel_ said:


> thingie, maybe he wasn't all that old..



The cop (Harwood) hadn't already left to avoid a disciplinary either. He tried to, but they've sacked him (this week) instead.


----------



## Firky (Sep 19, 2012)

Ian Tomlinson (7 February 1962 – 1 April 2009) 

Wiki


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 19, 2012)

oops internets says 50 odd


----------



## xes (Sep 19, 2012)

_angel_ said:


> I've never been sure what we are meant to replace the police with exactly. Of course I want a way of keeping bastards like the guy who got away with murdering that old guy out of the police. The fact he'd already left to avoid a disciplinary is bad enough, but what is the replacement.... particularly higher up the line ie detectives with expertise etc.


replace them with people of upstanding morals, people who are willing to actually abide by the laws they are ment to be upholding. People who wouldn't follow any orders metted out from goverment agencies, made to harvest more monies from the public, as that is not keeping the peace and or protecting anybody, other than goverment interests. People who don't abuse their powers or see themselves as above the people they SERVE.

You know, those sorts of people.


----------



## Firky (Sep 19, 2012)

DotCommunist said:


> oops internets says 50 odd


 
*drags dotty back into maths class*


----------



## cesare (Sep 19, 2012)

firky said:


> *drags dotty back into maths class*



*drags angel back into current affairs class*


----------



## _angel_ (Sep 19, 2012)

xes said:


> replace them with people of upstanding morals, people who are willing to actually abide by the laws they are ment to be upholding. People who wouldn't follow any orders metted out from goverment agencies, made to harvest more monies from the public, as that is not keeping the peace and or protecting anybody, other than goverment interests. People who don't abuse their powers or see themselves as above the people they SERVE.
> 
> You know, those sorts of people.


Yes but you still end up with it being professionalised.
I'm not saying there aren't plenty who shouldn't be in the police...just that I don't think laughing at someone killing two unarmed women is great.


----------



## Balbi (Sep 19, 2012)

That's not dottys fault - the standard of maths teaching at the independent ex-grammaer school he went to was shite.


----------



## xes (Sep 19, 2012)

_angel_ said:


> Yes but you still end up with it being professionalised.
> I'm not saying there aren't plenty who shouldn't be in the police...just that I don't think laughing at someone killing two unarmed women is great.


Nothing wrong with the police being professional, that'd be a bloody good place to start changing things.

And I'm not laughing at these dead cops, I'd rather not waste any energy on them.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 19, 2012)

editor

though you like hertford's post it's telling that a) trying to bring class into it in an attempt to have a pop at me didn't occur to you; and b) you've shown yourself very happy to highlight what you consider to be the importance of the sex of the two cops. It's also interesting, and by no means to your credit, that this thread's a good example of your m.o.  You feel one way about this incident, and it's obvious that as far as you're concerned that's *the* way to feel. Anyone who dares to feel differently is hounded. you're pretty much the only person to get in such a state over my use of the word "brace", for example. it's got to be your way or the highway and if it's the highway you get in a strop and say how bored you are. It's disappointing.


----------



## JimW (Sep 19, 2012)

agricola said:


> Strictly speaking, he will be keeping what little bit of a pension he managed to accumulate whilst he was a police officer - which will mean around £7,000 a year from the age of 60.


Is that right? I'd seen the 15 grand figure reported which made me think of the Haward connection, but obv barney might even have meant something else in original comment.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 19, 2012)

xes said:


> Nothing wrong with the police being professional, that'd be a bloody good place to start changing things.
> 
> And I'm not laughing at these dead cops, I'd rather not waste any energy on them.


well said


----------



## barney_pig (Sep 19, 2012)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...an-Tomlinson-but-allowed-to-keep-pension.html
it is the mail that quotes £15000 but I won't link there


----------



## barney_pig (Sep 19, 2012)

see that police are able to blacken Mark Duggan's name in court without any opportunity for rebuttal


----------



## Lock&Light (Sep 19, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> editor
> 
> though you like hertford's post it's telling that a) trying to bring class into it in an attempt to have a pop at me didn't occur to you; and b) you've shown yourself very happy to highlight what you consider to be the importance of the sex of the two cops. It's also interesting, and by no means to your credit, that this thread's a good example of your m.o. You feel one way about this incident, and it's obvious that as far as you're concerned that's *the* way to feel. Anyone who dares to feel differently is hounded. you're pretty much the only person to get in such a state over my use of the word "brace", for example. it's got to be your way or the highway and if it's the highway you get in a strop and say how bored you are. It's disappointing.


 
Your intentions when you used the word "brace" was clear for all to see.


----------



## agricola (Sep 19, 2012)

JimW said:


> Is that right? I'd seen the 15 grand figure reported which made me think of the Haward connection, but obv barney might even have meant something else in original comment.


 
If he was talking about Harwood that is around what he will be getting, the media have been harping on about him still getting a "police pension" without actually pointing out that the pension he will end up with is not the actual police pension that Cameron insists is destroying the country, it will be around ten years worth of 1/60th of his last year in services salary (the full pre-2006 pension being 40/60ths).


----------



## editor (Sep 19, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> Anyone who dares to feel differently is hounded. you're pretty much the only person to get in such a state over my use of the word "brace", for example.


You knew _exactly_ what you were doing when you termed the dehumanising phrase, 'brace of dead cops,' but as soon as you got called up on it, the wriggling began.

And that was the point where I realised it was pointless engaging with your drivel any further.


----------



## JimW (Sep 19, 2012)

agricola said:


> If he was talking about Harwood that is around what he will be getting, the media have been harping on about him still getting a "police pension" without actually pointing out that the pension he will end up with is not the actual police pension that Cameron insists is destroying the country, it will be around ten years worth of 1/60th of his last year in services salary (the full pre-2006 pension being 40/60ths).


Fair enough. What's the regulations behind him getting even the reduced amount if out for gross misconduct?
ETA: Obv this is getting a bit off topic, so feel free to leave it for the right thread.


----------



## Dandred (Sep 19, 2012)

bun fights with The Editor are always the best.  

I'm just enjoying the show in front of the many many registered (and unregistered) posters here.


----------



## barney_pig (Sep 19, 2012)

according to wiki some 300 or so police officers have died 'in the course of duty' a quick count of the list (from 1900 0nward) shows 60% to be accidental in nature. about 6000 people have died at the hands of the police since 2000.


----------



## Barking_Mad (Sep 19, 2012)

Why 'lure two officers' to your home, shoot and throw a grenade at them, and then hand yourself in an hour later?


----------



## xes (Sep 19, 2012)

barney_pig said:


> according to wiki some 300 or so police officers have died 'in the course of duty' a quick count of the list (from 1900 0nward) shows 60% to be accidental in nature. about 6000 people have died at the hands of the police since 2000.


I thought it was around 1000 from 1990?

Might have pulled that figure out me arse though.

And you can bet your arse, the only fuck given by those cops will be along the line of "I hope I get away with this" which they always do.


----------



## likesfish (Sep 19, 2012)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2012/jul/19/deaths-police-custody-data

More like 1400 or so since 1990 
6000 would make the police twice as dangerous as the troubles for ffs!


----------



## likesfish (Sep 19, 2012)

Barking_Mad said:


> Why 'lure two officers' to your home, shoot and throw a grenade at them, and then hand yourself in an hour later?



Because your a cunt who thinks pulling off a killing like that will give you a rep and he realised the chances of him being able to surrender to armed cops would be miniscule


----------



## barney_pig (Sep 19, 2012)

sorry, took the number from the united campaign against police violence which says;
"The Independent Advisory Panel on Deaths in Custody report published in 2011 states: in total, there were 5,998 deaths recorded for the 11 years from 2000 to 2010. This is an average of 545 deaths per year. Despite the fact there have been 11 unlawful killing verdicts since 1990 there has never been a successful prosecution."
http://againstpoliceviolence.blogspot.co.uk/
 even if one takes the far lower number quoted in the graun, we have the situation that the police are able to kill with impunity. whilst the deaths of two police officers is an almost unheard of occurrance- I think the last time it happened was the Harrods bomb.
 and the last time by shooting was Harry Roberts in 1966


----------



## agricola (Sep 19, 2012)

JimW said:


> Fair enough. What's the regulations behind him getting even the reduced amount if out for gross misconduct?
> ETA: Obv this is getting a bit off topic, so feel free to leave it for the right thread.


 
There arent any.  At the moment, they can only seize a pension if the officer has either committed treason, or an offence for which they received a sentence of ten years or more, or if the Secretary of State believes that their conviction for an offence committed in connection with their service would harm the state or gravely injure public confidence in the police.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 19, 2012)

editor said:


> You knew _exactly_ what you were doing when you termed the dehumanising phrase, 'brace of dead cops,' but as soon as you got called up on it, the wriggling began.
> 
> And that was the point where I realised it was pointless engaging with your drivel any further.


So from POST TWO you realised it was pointless?  

So why did you force yourself to quote me, what 10 times on this thread, maybe more?


----------



## editor (Sep 19, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> So from POST TWO you realised it was pointless?
> 
> So why did you force yourself to quote me, what 10 times on this thread, maybe more?


The thread isn't all about you. Get over yourself.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 19, 2012)

editor said:


> The thread isn't all about you. Get over yourself.


Well spotted. But you've done your best to make it about me.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 19, 2012)

JimW said:


> Is that right? I'd seen the 15 grand figure reported which made me think of the Haward connection, but obv barney might even have meant something else in original comment.


 
Didn't Harwood *already* have a police pension after being medically-retired previously?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 19, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Didn't Harwood *already* have a police pension after being medically-retired previously?


yeh he must have done, plus one from being a police civilian i suppose.


----------



## CyberRose (Sep 19, 2012)

barney_pig said:


> according to wiki some 300 or so police officers have died 'in the course of duty' a quick count of the list (from 1900 0nward) shows 60% to be accidental in nature. about 6000 people have died at the hands of the police since 2000.


How many have died at the hands of the NHS?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 19, 2012)

barney_pig said:


> sorry, took the number from the united campaign against police violence which says;
> "The Independent Advisory Panel on Deaths in Custody report published in 2011 states: in total, there were 5,998 deaths recorded for the 11 years from 2000 to 2010. This is an average of 545 deaths per year. Despite the fact there have been 11 unlawful killing verdicts since 1990 there has never been a successful prosecution."
> http://againstpoliceviolence.blogspot.co.uk/
> even if one takes the far lower number quoted in the graun, we have the situation that the police are able to kill with impunity. whilst the deaths of two police officers is an almost unheard of occurrance- I think the last time it happened was the Harrods bomb.
> and the last time by shooting was Harry Roberts in 1966


the last by shooting was, of course, ian terry shot by a colleague in 2008.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Sep 19, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Hands-on is SOP.
> Not being psychic cops, they can't tell if the idiot they're about to ticket for not wearing a seatbelt isn't going to pull a gun and try to kill them After all, you could be all sorts of insane.


 
I accept that. It was my first exposure to this particular SOP.


----------



## likesfish (Sep 19, 2012)

US SOP is Gun out at least in florida.
 Telling a  florida copper when he asks if theres any weapon in the car errr an Ak47 And 10,000 rounds of ammo ( bizarre gun control law russian surplus ammo was deemed illegal). But you could sell from the back of a lorry.
   Rather than the copper going berserk spent 40 mins talking about guns no ticket


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 20, 2012)

Barking_Mad said:


> Why 'lure two officers' to your home, shoot and throw a grenade at them, and then hand yourself in an hour later?


 
Cregan will effectively be under a sentence of death from the gang whose two members he killed inside or outside.
If he hadn't handed himself in then armed police would have killed him
The killing of police will put him in segregation where his rivals will have less chance of execution.

In other words he has killed two unarmed women officers to increase his own survival.


----------



## Athos (Sep 20, 2012)

The39thStep said:
			
		

> Cregan will effectively be under a sentence of death from the gang whose two members he killed inside or outside.
> If he hadn't handed himself in then armed police would have killed him
> The killing of police will put him in segregation where his rivals will have less chance of execution.
> 
> In other words he has killed two unarmed women officers to increase his own survival.



Why would the killing of police mean that he wouldn't be kept on a normal wing?

Surely the issue of segregation would be decided by the threat to him. Principally, such a threat would arise from the killing of rival gang members. Who are the prisoners that are more likely to kill him because he killed cops?


----------



## likesfish (Sep 20, 2012)

Because prison is full of "hard cases" who think offing a police killer would increase there rep.
   Or at least the prison service would belive that or the gang whose members killed him would want to have him killed.
  Its not entirely rational most people dont murder tory MP's because they know they couldnt get away with it.
   this loon thought throwing grenades at rivals I cant possibly get caught  so not exactly a genius.

As a copper told me once while doing an ID Parade about a suspect who wore a paper bag over his head in line up.
 " if he was a criminal genius we wouldnt have caught him."


----------



## malatesta32 (Sep 20, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> A "pair of braces" would be "four".
> 
> Or something to hold your trousers up.


 
the scots word 'galusses' avoids any ambiguity!


----------



## Athos (Sep 20, 2012)

likesfish said:
			
		

> Because prison is full of "hard cases" who think offing a police killer would increase there rep.
> Or at least the prison service would belive that or the gang whose members killed him would want to have him killed.
> Its not entirely rational most people dont murder tory MP's because they know they couldnt get away with it.
> this loon thought throwing grenades at rivals I cant possibly get caught  so not exactly a genius.
> ...



My point was that 39steps hypothesis that he killed the cops so as to be put in segregation for his own protection doesn't stack up. 

Killing the officers wouldn't make him any more likely to be segregated. A decision on segregation would be based on the threat to him. That threat is from the rival gang; he wouldn't be under a greater threats as a result of killing the coppers. For that to be the case there would have to be other prisoners so incensed by the killing of the cops that they want to harm him - a mindset unlikely amongst prisoners.

Killing the cops will just increase his sentence. He could have just handed himself in and made the case that his life was in danger from fellow prisoners, if he wanted segregation.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 20, 2012)

Athos said:


> My point was that 39steps hypothesis that he killed the cops so as to be put in segregation for his own protection doesn't stack up.
> 
> Killing the officers wouldn't make him any more likely to be segregated. A decision on segregation would be based on the threat to him. That threat is from the rival gang; he wouldn't be under a greater threats as a result of killing the coppers. For that to be the case there would have to be other prisoners so incensed by the killing of the cops that they want to harm him - a mindset unlikely amongst prisoners.
> 
> Killing the cops will just increase his sentence. He could have just handed himself in and made the case that his life was in danger from fellow prisoners, if he wanted segregation.


perhaps the staircase has 40 steps.


----------



## xes (Sep 20, 2012)

killing cops probably makes him more likely to be a victim of the gand he killed 2 members of, yes, the uniformed gang, they'll make sure he gets done. If they don't do it themselves they'll probably make sure someone else does.


----------



## weltweit (Sep 20, 2012)

It has oft been said that the two policewomen were unarmed but I heard a piece on a radio broadcast which said that the police had retrieved one of the officers tazers from the scene.


----------



## Athos (Sep 20, 2012)

xes said:
			
		

> killing cops probably makes him more likely to be a victim of the gand he killed 2 members of, yes, the uniformed gang, they'll make sure he gets done. If they don't do it themselves they'll probably make sure someone else does.



Which would tend to refute 39steps idea that he killed cops to make himself safer, wouldn't it?


----------



## likesfish (Sep 20, 2012)

Which is about as much use as a dish cloth in a firefight.

A taser is  great if your facing an angry person waving a broken bottle or  stick "going come on then"  little red dot on the chest 
Person thinks this is going to really hurt and I'm not even going to get a sly punch in. Person gives up no loss of face.
    Limited use against drunk,mad or drugged fuck all use against somebody with guns or grenades.
 Chuck the grenade officers down injured not dead and then cunt shot them repeatidly
   Short of the police knowing he was there little was going to save them.
 Police approach to armed suspect in house cordon negociate 
 Military set light to house shoot him as he flees


----------



## Lemon Eddy (Sep 20, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3. An Apology.

Earlier in this thread, Mr Canuck made the following post:



Johnny Canuck3 said:


> If your cops were armed, probably one of them would be alive, and he'd be dead.


 
It has come to my attention that some people may have been misinterpreted devils advocate comments such as "What the cocking cock are you talking about?" and "Shut the fuck up you fool, you're talking arse!" as indicating a disagreement with the overall thrust of Mr Canuck's argument.

I feel it is important that I make my stance absolutely clear, which can best be summarised with the following quote from expert opinion:




> Criminal experts have claimed that the best way to prevent a growing number of gun crimes on our streets is to drastically increase the number of guns on the streets.
> 
> Professor Simon Williams explained, “To address the growing issue of gun crime in this country we need to take steps now.  For every well-armed lunatic criminal with violent tendencies, we should have an equally unstable police officer with at least equal armoury.”


----------



## DRINK? (Sep 20, 2012)

xes said:


> killing cops probably makes him more likely to be a victim of the gand he killed 2 members of, yes, the uniformed gang, they'll make sure he gets done. If they don't do it themselves they'll probably make sure someone else does.


 
he'll have to sleep with one eye open


----------



## Part 2 (Sep 20, 2012)

Anyway..... Facebook fansite man has been arrested.

http://menmedia.co.uk/manchestereve...sted-over-offensive-dale-cregan-facebook-page


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 20, 2012)

xes said:


> killing cops probably makes him more likely to be a victim of the gand he killed 2 members of, yes, the uniformed gang, they'll make sure he gets done. If they don't do it themselves they'll probably make sure someone else does.


 
Done in what way? and who would you suggest the Police will be making sure that someone else does?

The police actually have a duty ( which they have carried out in this feud between serious organised crime gangs) to warn those whose life is at risk.

Back on planet earth I think you will find that Cregan is more at risk from his fellow citzens, those involved in the gang around the Shorts.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 20, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> Done in what way? and who would you suggest the Police will be making sure that someone else does?
> 
> The police actually have a duty ( which they have carried out in this feud between serious organised crime gangs) to warn those whose life is at risk.
> 
> Back on planet earth I think you will find that Cregan is more at risk from his fellow citzens, those involved in the gang around the Shorts.


we're all cregan's fellow citizens.


----------



## Louloubelle (Sep 20, 2012)

I haven't read the thread and so apologies if this has already been pointed out, but surely there is a possibility that a member of a rival gang made the phone call that sent the WPCs to the location where they were murdered.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 20, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> we're all cregan's fellow citizens.


 
A potential ally.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 20, 2012)

according to the guardian - http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/sep/20/police-killings-arrest-cregan-facebook - the man who's been nicked for the facebook page was arrested under the communications act 2003. but the communications act (http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/21) doesn't seem to make being nasty on the internet an offence, not that i could see anyway.

does one of our legal boffins know better?


----------



## CyberRose (Sep 20, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> according to the guardian - http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/sep/20/police-killings-arrest-cregan-facebook - the man who's been nicked for the facebook page was arrested under the communications act 2003. but the communications act (http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/21) doesn't seem to make being nasty on the internet an offence, not that i could see anyway.
> 
> does one of our legal boffins know better?


This bit...?

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/21/section/127


----------



## xes (Sep 20, 2012)

Athos said:


> Which would tend to refute 39steps idea that he killed cops to make himself safer, wouldn't it?


Probably, yes, but I hadn't agreed with his idea, and that's all mine was, nobody can know his intentions, only he can.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 20, 2012)

CyberRose said:


> This bit...?
> 
> http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/21/section/127


we're all fucked


----------



## XR75 (Sep 21, 2012)

That says to send a message so I would interpret that as to send an email etc.


----------



## Firky (Sep 21, 2012)

Fucking unbelievable that being an obnoxious cunt on the internet is illegal but it's perfectly acceptable to do it if you're a journalist.


----------



## josef1878 (Sep 21, 2012)

According to bbc he's now been charged with 4 murders


----------



## free spirit (Sep 21, 2012)

CyberRose said:


> This bit...?
> 
> http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/21/section/127


so, if we could show that nick clegg deliberately set out to annoy people with his lies on the internet about tuition fees, not cutting spending in a recession etc then he could be charged under this act?


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 21, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> according to the guardian - http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/sep/20/police-killings-arrest-cregan-facebook - the man who's been nicked for the facebook page was arrested under the communications act 2003. but the communications act (http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/21) doesn't seem to make being nasty on the internet an offence, not that i could see anyway.
> 
> does one of our legal boffins know better?


 
obviously a case where anarchists should be defending civil liberties for the masses



josef1878 said:


> According to bbc he's now been charged with 4 murders


 
and three attempt murders.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 21, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> obviously a case where anarchists should be defending civil liberties for the masses
> 
> 
> 
> and three attempt murders.


This is one of those moments where you stand in for private pike - "you stupid boy".

you don't know what a precedent is, do you?


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 21, 2012)

its become a three ring grief circus now.gmp swearing vengeance on the criminal underworld who probably wanted this headcase out of the way as well sothey could get on with quietly being proper naughty. And then Winner, Michael fucking Winner appears on my radio box talking about the incident.

Scraping the bottom of the comment barrel to wring a few more drops of nation-in-mourning collectivised grief out of it.

It was shit, the blokes a cunt and will die in jail, the family have to live with it and thats hard.

but the media juggernaut is near wanking itself to diana hieghts now

.


----------



## likesfish (Sep 21, 2012)

Michael winner funds some charity that put up memorials to dead polcemen.
    Hopefully gmp go full jihad on the various wankstain criminal families they can all make danny dyer inspired docs after spending the next 15 years in jail.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 21, 2012)

likesfish said:


> Michael winner funds some charity that put up memorials to dead polcemen.
> Hopefully gmp go full jihad on the various wankstain criminal families they can all make danny dyer inspired docs after spending the next 15 years in jail.


let's see which if any cops go down first.


----------



## Firky (Sep 21, 2012)

GMP have a reputation for using Israeli inspired law enforcement. Sledgehammer to a nut.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 21, 2012)

firky said:


> GMP have a reputation for using Israeli inspired law enforcement. Sledgehammer to a nut.


or gin bottle on a hillside.


----------



## malatesta32 (Sep 21, 2012)

michael winner? why?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 21, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> michael winner? why?


he's long raised money for police memorials, including (if memory serves) the foul national police memorial. it's foul cos it's a horrible design.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 21, 2012)




----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 21, 2012)

Winner only donates it for the tax write off.I'm certain of this


----------



## Frances Lengel (Sep 21, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> michael winner? why?


 
That question's valid in a far wider context than just this thread.


----------



## malatesta32 (Sep 21, 2012)

agreed frances! michael winner: just WHY?


----------



## malatesta32 (Sep 21, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> he's long raised money for police memorials, including (if memory serves) the foul national police memorial. it's foul cos it's a horrible design.


yeah agreed on that. its rubbish. perhaps it shd have been a stautue of charles bronson (actor not eejit eternal con).


----------



## discokermit (Sep 21, 2012)

bloke who phoned coppers linked to edl, http://www.edlnews.co.uk/index.php/...mber-arrested-over-manchester-police-killings


----------



## xes (Sep 21, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


>


 looks like the shop for an ipad.

Is it just me, or have the media gone wank crazy for arming the police? Every fucking thing they say about this, is "why were unarmed officers sent to do x y and z" and "armed response were sent there just last week for a report" type propaganda?


----------



## agricola (Sep 21, 2012)

discokermit said:


> bloke who phoned coppers linked to edl, http://www.edlnews.co.uk/index.php/...mber-arrested-over-manchester-police-killings


 
That might well explain the general air of indifference and lack of comment with regards to these murders on a certain other forum.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 21, 2012)

xes said:


> looks like the shop for an ipad.
> 
> Is it just me, or have the media gone wank crazy for arming the police? Every fucking thing they say about this, is "why were unarmed officers sent to do x y and z" and "armed response were sent there just last week for a report" type propaganda?


and you know they'd be shouting blue murder if some drunk hack got shot by the cops.


----------



## xes (Sep 21, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> and you know they'd be shouting blue murder if some drunk hack got shot by the cops.


oh fuck yeah, but we'd best not mention civilian death from nazi pig cunts, cos 2 pretty burds were shot, and that means so much fucking more than we do.


----------



## Andrew Hertford (Sep 21, 2012)

xes said:


> oh fuck yeah, but we'd best not mention civilian death from nazi pig cunts, cos 2 pretty burds were shot, and that means so much fucking more than we do.


 
So how long did the acab truce last? Two days?

Prick.


----------



## xes (Sep 21, 2012)

fuck you, I called no fucking truce. ACAB to the fucking last.

Prick your fucking self.


----------



## Wilf (Sep 21, 2012)

Christmas in the trenches.


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 21, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> This is one of those moments where you stand in for private pike - "you stupid boy".
> 
> you don't know what a precedent is, do you?


 
Enlighten me librarian.


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 21, 2012)

xes said:


> oh fuck yeah, but we'd best not mention civilian death from nazi pig cunts, cos 2 pretty burds were shot, and that means so much fucking more than we do.


 
Desperate times call for desperate posts


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 21, 2012)

xes said:


> fuck you, I called no fucking truce. ACAB to the fucking last.
> 
> Prick your fucking self.


you're mighty restrained today.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 21, 2012)

Wilf said:


> Christmas in the trenches.


 
It's just like _Kristallnacht_.


----------



## xes (Sep 21, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> Desperate times call for desperate posts


no, you're right, the police really do care about how many civilians they kill. (up to the point of "can we get away with it still" at least)


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 21, 2012)

xes said:


> no, you're right, the police really do care about how many civilians they kill. (up to the point of "can we get away with it still" at least)


 
desperate times call for desperate points Scene 1, take 2.


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## xes (Sep 21, 2012)

Pointless answers call for more pointless answers


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## Pickman's model (Sep 21, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> Enlighten me librarian.


what's used against people you disapprove of now may well be used against people you agree with later.


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## The39thStep (Sep 21, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> what's used against people you disapprove of now may well be used against people you agree with later.


 
I will take my chances with that one


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 21, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> I will take my chances with that one


perhaps you'll mull over this thread while doing six months in the future.


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 21, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> perhaps you'll mull over this thread while doing six months in the future.


 
Perhaps I won't be doing six months but I will keep your good advice somewhere safe just in case.


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## CyberRose (Sep 21, 2012)

xes said:


> fuck you, I called no fucking truce. ACAB to the fucking last.
> 
> Prick your fucking self.


Get help, seriously


----------



## Part 2 (Sep 21, 2012)

15 year old arrested

http://menmedia.co.uk/manchestereve...ng-dale-cregan-while-he-was-wanted-by-police-


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## ajk (Sep 22, 2012)

xes said:


> oh fuck yeah, but we'd best not mention civilian death from nazi pig cunts, cos 2 pretty burds were shot, and that means so much fucking more than we do.



Seriously, you're like twelve years old, aren't you?


----------



## high castle (Sep 22, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> There's not much chance of any of you getting shot over there, nor is there of me getting shot over here, even though every cop has a handgun and every cop car has a shotgun in the trunk.
> 
> But from what I've learned on here and elsewhere, the threads about urbanites being robbed in the streets, the reports of knife crime, assaults in the subway etc, I think I can safely say that not only am I less afraid on the streets of my city, I'm also in less actual peril on the streets of my city; same goes for Toronto, a much larger place. Hard to determine exactly how effective this 'policing by consent' model, actually is.


I don't know what the stats are on how gun laws re police/citizens affects crime other than gun crime in the many different ways that it could, and perhaps that's a better line for you to go down (PERHAPS being the operative word). I'm sure it would be interesting to look at.

I think another point has nothing to do with broad figures. In numerous scenarios people will throw the line out, 'Oh, you're far more likely to get run over than to...', to which I often think to myself that the stats on getting run over will include many people say who are more reckless than I am, have a more dangerous road next to their houes, etc.

So for example, the number killed by gun fire where a state has a higher level of legal gun ownership might include a high level of criminals being killed within that number aside from innocent victims, it might include a number of half-brained rednecks in drunken disputes, etc. In which case, the question would be: Should I have to give up my right to protect myself or to be protected by armed police, if it is the case that such stats don't carry the same meaning for me or people like me?


----------



## high castle (Sep 22, 2012)

firky said:


> I asked what bravery was to you, not what it says in the dictionary. Never mind.


If you've ever taught English as a Foreign Language you'll find yourself having to deal with the register of a given word, its positive, negative and neutral connotations, among other things - not just a brief dictionary definition. You find when you are trying to give a word to a student, you have to be honest and say how it is normally received and used in a given context.

In that sense I think you're right that 'bravery' is a provocative word here. I guess 'brace of cops' is suggestive too. I don't know why we would have to beat around the bush. Why don't those who use such terms tell us how they really feel instead of defending them?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 22, 2012)

That's a good idea. There's more than 600 posts on this thread and you'd like to go back and discuss post 2


----------



## xes (Sep 22, 2012)

ajk said:


> Seriously, you're like twelve years old, aren't you?


No, I can just see those fucking arseholes for what they are. police are not here to protect the public, they are here to protect goverments and the rich. And I fucking hate them with every fibre of my being for it. If that makes me juvenile in your view, then so fucking what? (you boring little cunt) I have a legitimate hatred of the police, and I do hold them as the same sort of people that the nazis were, just following orders, no matter how wrong those orders are, or how against the oath they are. Without question, because they do not have the fucking brain power to question what they're told to do. (basically collect taxes for the rich)

Fuck them, and fuck you.


----------



## Maltin (Sep 22, 2012)

xes said:


> I have a legitimate hatred of the police, and I do hold them as the same sort of people that the nazis were, just following orders, no matter how wrong those orders are, or how against the oath they are. Without question, because they do not have the fucking brain power to question what they're told to do. (basically collect taxes for the rich)


i think your last comment summing up what you think the police's job is shows that you are one mightily confused person.


----------



## likesfish (Sep 22, 2012)

Xes your a loon.
  There are genuine reasons to be angry at the police but that they are some nazi level of oppression of the poor is frankly bonkers.
   Get out of the 1st world and your see  what real oppresion is.
 Uk coppers dont expect bribes as a right or cull the poor for shits and giggles.

dale wasnt fighting for some belief he was a criminal involved in a feud with other scumbags who loved the fact the Local community lived in fear of his violent gang


----------



## xes (Sep 22, 2012)

Maltin said:


> i think your last comment summing up what you think the police's job is shows that you are one mightily confused person.


which bit, the tax collecting bit, or the not knowing the difference between right and wrong bit?

Never seen a copper refuse to batter the shit out of people.
Always see coppers giving out fines for this that or the other.


----------



## xes (Sep 22, 2012)

likesfish said:


> Xes your a loon.
> There are genuine reasons to be angry at the police but that they are some nazi level of oppression of the poor is frankly bonkers.
> Get out of the 1st world and your see what real oppresion is.
> Uk coppers dont expect bribes as a right or cull the poor for shits and giggles.
> ...


Yes, it's worse in other places, so we'd better wait until it gets that bad before we even dare to complain. And I don't think my nazi comparrison is that off. I'd be willing to wager everything I ever earn in my lifetime, that coppers would only be too happy to carry out the exact same orders given to the nazis, if they are told to do so. I know they would, they are people of zero morals, no respect for human life, basically, they are fucking vermin.


----------



## likesfish (Sep 22, 2012)

i actually like the fact that there is a force that will stop people  being cunts is not self appointed and has some sort of competancy.
 Its not perfect but then it involves humans replacimg the police would either just be the police in a diffrent outfit.
  or revolves around society being so radicly diffrent the answer is a sky is potato


----------



## high castle (Sep 22, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> That's a good idea. There's more than 600 posts on this thread and you'd like to go back and discuss post 2


I've read most of them. It stuck in my mind so I mentioned it, albeit a bit late in the day.

It seems that your constant playful evasion was hiding a real lack of empathy. It seems quite possible that yourself and others may not want to say what you really feel about this as you might feel that could somehow be incriminating. In which case, perhaps it's best not to say anything at all - if you can manage to hold it in - rather than wind people up with provocative language and then defend it as though it were perfectly innocent and neutral. Btw, by this I'm not in any way saying that your view is wrong. I personally find it tragic, but I guess from your point of view, that's a problem I have. I generally find murder tragic, though.


----------



## high castle (Sep 22, 2012)

xes said:


> No, I can just see those fucking arseholes for what they are. police are not here to protect the public, they are here to protect goverments and the rich. And I fucking hate them with every fibre of my being for it. If that makes me juvenile in your view, then so fucking what? (you boring little cunt) I have a legitimate hatred of the police, and I do hold them as the same sort of people that the nazis were, just following orders, no matter how wrong those orders are, or how against the oath they are. Without question, because they do not have the fucking brain power to question what they're told to do. (basically collect taxes for the rich)
> 
> Fuck them, and fuck you.


Even if they are here to protect 'governments and the rich' at the cost of you and I, along side this they also do protect you too, no? If your sister were raped would you go to the police or become a sort of one-man rambo-xes vigilante type figure and hunt them down alone with a homemade bow and arrow?


----------



## xes (Sep 22, 2012)

high castle said:


> Even if they are here to protect 'governments and the rich' at the cost of you and I, along side this they also do protect you too, no? If your sister were raped would you go to the police or become a sort of one-man rambo-xes vigilante type figure and hunt them down alone with a homemade bow and arrow?


Solving crimes is what they're supposed to do, I wouldn't have a problem if that's all they did. Of course (sadly) we need a police force to protect us from actual crime. But that' becoming an increasingly smaller part of what they do. They are a LTD company, one which has investors, you don't invest in something unless you expect to make a profit. Which means police for profit. Which means you have to criminalise as much of the population as you can, to collect fines and to fill the prisons. (also for profit organisations) It's getting less and less to do with crime, and more and more to do with lining the pockets of some rich investors, with laws handily made to do this, by our beloved goverment (with some peer influenced decisions, from investors of the police force)

If all they did was solve crime, I'd not have a bad word to say about them.


----------



## high castle (Sep 22, 2012)

xes said:


> Solving crimes is what they're supposed to do, I wouldn't have a problem if that's all they did. Of course (sadly) we need a police force to protect us from actual crime. But that' becoming an increasingly smaller part of what they do. They are a LTD company, one which has investors, you don't invest in something unless you expect to make a profit. Which means police for profit. Which means you have to criminalise as much of the population as you can, to collect fines and to fill the prisons. (also for profit organisations) It's getting less and less to do with crime, and more and more to do with lining the pockets of some rich investors, with laws handily made to do this, by our beloved goverment (with some peer influenced decisions, from investors of the police force)
> 
> If all they did was solve crime, I'd not have a bad word to say about them.


When you say that dealing with the everyday crime such as burglary, robbery, rape, violence, etc. is becoming a smaller part of what the police do, are you saying 'a small part' or just a 'smaller part'?


----------



## xes (Sep 22, 2012)

a smaller part, which seems to be getting overweighed with all of these laws to control people, instead of laws to keep them safe.


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## high castle (Sep 22, 2012)

xes said:


> a smaller part, which seems to be getting overweighed with all of these laws to control people, instead of laws to keep them safe.


Smaller but still a massive part, right?


----------



## xes (Sep 22, 2012)

I couldn't tell you percentages.


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## CyberRose (Sep 22, 2012)

xes said:


> I couldn't tell you percentages.


No, of course you couldn't, because you're talking out of your arse


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 22, 2012)

xes said:


> which bit, the tax collecting bit, or the not knowing the difference between right and wrong bit?
> 
> Never seen a copper refuse to batter the shit out of people.
> Always see coppers giving out fines for this that or the other.


 
Police know the difference between right and wrong.
Some of them aren't that bothered about it, though.


----------



## xes (Sep 22, 2012)

CyberRose said:


> No, of course you couldn't, because you're talking out of your arse


of course I am, the police are lovely, n on violent people, skipping round handing out candy to little kiddies, and not bullying, battering, killing people with absolute impunity.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 22, 2012)

high castle said:


> I've read most of them. It stuck in my mind so I mentioned it, albeit a bit late in the day.
> 
> It seems that your constant playful evasion was hiding a real lack of empathy. It seems quite possible that yourself and others may not want to say what you really feel about this as you might feel that could somehow be incriminating. In which case, perhaps it's best not to say anything at all - if you can manage to hold it in - rather than wind people up with provocative language and then defend it as though it were perfectly innocent and neutral. Btw, by this I'm not in any way saying that your view is wrong. I personally find it tragic, but I guess from your point of view, that's a problem I have. I generally find murder tragic, though.


Personally I find it hard to have any empathy or sympathy for cops. But there you go. I do not like being bumped into saying something, if I want to say it I will. Yes murder's tragick: but when it's cops and alleged edl as when it's cops and hunt scum I can't say i'm greatly exercised by who did what to who.


----------



## high castle (Sep 22, 2012)

xes said:


> of course I am, the police are lovely, n on violent people, skipping round handing out candy to little kiddies, and not bullying, battering, killing people with absolute impunity.


Do you know any police officers? Do you know anyone who has tried to become one? I've know a few that have tried to become coppers but spent too long waiting and ended up doing other jobs. No, they weren't cunts - not at all. They mostly were just trying to get a decent salary as they had spent too long on almost minimum wages and planned to be off the beat asap.

I know that's anecdotal, but what about you? I'm not saying they're all great people. I know some of them can be right twats, too, as I've run into them in my life. I don't know if it's the job that makes them worse people or not. But are you really saying that they're virtually all just cunts who 'batter and kill' people?

Btw, I know ur a conspiracy theorist, but really, if you're, for example, an Alex Jones fan, you can really lose the plot. That guy is 110% fixated on only the worst news he can possible find, ignores everything else, and then represents the whole world with those cherry-picked stories. (That's not to say everything he says is completely untrue either, of course.)


----------



## Termite Man (Sep 22, 2012)

discokermit said:


> bloke who phoned coppers linked to edl, http://www.edlnews.co.uk/index.php/...mber-arrested-over-manchester-police-killings


he's also linked to Manchester City football club as well, weird bit of reporting there


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 22, 2012)

xes said:


> of course I am, the police are lovely, n on violent people, skipping round handing out candy to little kiddies, and not bullying, battering, killing people with absolute impunity.


 
would you put the  two women community beat officers who were shot and blown up with a grenade in your latter hysterics?


----------



## ajk (Sep 22, 2012)

xes said:


> No, I can just see those fucking arseholes for what they are. police are not here to protect the public, they are here to protect goverments and the rich. And I fucking hate them with every fibre of my being for it. If that makes me juvenile in your view, then so fucking what? (you boring little cunt) I have a legitimate hatred of the police, and I do hold them as the same sort of people that the nazis were, just following orders, no matter how wrong those orders are, or how against the oath they are. Without question, because they do not have the fucking brain power to question what they're told to do. (basically collect taxes for the rich)
> 
> Fuck them, and fuck you.


 
What makes you juvenile is your apparent inability to appreciate nuance or ambiguity, and your insistence on seeing the world in the most simplistic binary states. Not to mention your use of the phrase "nazi pig cunt" on a thread at least putatively about the murder of two decent people who genuinely went into work that day with the intention of helping others, however misguided you might believe that intention to be. You don't see these "fucking arseholes" for what they are, you see them exactly as you want them to be, exactly as you _need_ them to be to justify your paranoid worldview and righteous anger. God forbid you even entertain for a second the notion that _it's a bit more complicated than that_, not all police are itching to discard any pretence that they are public servants and pull on the jackboots.
There is plenty to criticise the police for, not only are there many individual officers that shouldn't be allowed anywhere near a baton and a warrant card, there are also more serious systemic issues that even given the political and public will to exorcise them may be too ingrained to completely eradicate. Maybe the entire system requires redesigning from first principles, maybe it doesn't. That's something for the adults to discuss, while the children are playing in a simpler world where you either support the police wholeheartedly in all they do, or have a "legitimate hatred" for the "nazi pig cunts".

Look, no-one's asking you to wear a black armband or a blue poppy, or even to show the barest semblance of support. But if you are going to argue ACAB on this one thread, at least have a fucking modicum of respect and justify it, instead of spouting point-free invective about "fucking vermin" and "nazi pig cunts".


----------



## Andrew Hertford (Sep 22, 2012)

The coppers who came round last year and talked to my daughter for over an hour because we thought she might have been groomed on facebook weren't "nazi pig cunts", the ones who came round when we got burgled weren't and my mate in the Met certainly isn't, he recently took a train up to Scotland in his own time to talk to the family of a fire victim he'd dealt with after they'd finally identified the remains through DNA.

Xes and pickman might be able to impress each other and a handful of other loons on here by coming out with the usual tired old acab shit on a thread about a tragedy where two innocent people have been murdered - apparently by another acab loon - but the reality is that although a lot of coppers are bad, the majority are not "nazi pig cunts" by any stretch of the imagination and anyone coming out with shit like that must be seriously fucked up in my opinion.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 23, 2012)

high castle said:


> Do you know any police officers? Do you know anyone who has tried to become one? I've know a few that have tried to become coppers but spent too long waiting and ended up doing other jobs. No, they weren't cunts - not at all. They mostly were just trying to get a decent salary as they had spent too long on almost minimum wages and planned to be off the beat asap.
> 
> I know that's anecdotal, but what about you? I'm not saying they're all great people. I know some of them can be right twats, too, as I've run into them in my life. I don't know if it's the job that makes them worse people or not. But are you really saying that they're virtually all just cunts who 'batter and kill' people?
> 
> Btw, I know ur a conspiracy theorist, but really, if you're, for example, an Alex Jones fan, you can really lose the plot. That guy is 110% fixated on only the worst news he can possible find, ignores everything else, and then represents the whole world with those cherry-picked stories. (That's not to say everything he says is completely untrue either, of course.)


i think what you're trying to say is that while you have known failed cops - people who never joined the force - you don't in fact know anyone who has joined the police.

frankly if people look on joining the police as just another job i suspect that's why they weren't in fact admitted. i expect that the police see their role as something more than just another job, whether they're the bright-eyed idealist or the hard-nosed cynick.

in any event you've rather fucked your initial two sentences when you admit you don't know any cops.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 23, 2012)

Andrew Hertford said:


> The coppers who came round last year and talked to my daughter for over an hour because we thought she might have been groomed on facebook weren't "nazi pig cunts", the ones who came round when we got burgled weren't and my mate in the Met certainly isn't, he recently took a train up to Scotland in his own time to talk to the family of a fire victim he'd dealt with after they'd finally identified the remains through DNA.
> 
> Xes and pickman might be able to impress each other and a handful of other loons on here by coming out with the usual tired old acab shit on a thread about a tragedy where two innocent people have been murdered - apparently by another acab loon - but the reality is that although a lot of coppers are bad, the majority are not "nazi pig cunts" by any stretch of the imagination and anyone coming out with shit like that must be seriously fucked up in my opinion.


maybe the majority are not "nazi pig cunts". but that doesn't stop the constabulary being staffed by bastards. you'll no doubt recall the heartwarming show of support their colleagues in (then) so19 gave neil sharman and kevin fagan, who shot harry stanley, when they threatened to down guns: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-324408/Crisis-looms-police-guns-protest.html

how many cops came forward when they knew simon harwood was responsible for ian tomlinson's death? not ryan cowlin, steve discombe or alan "perjurer" palfrey: http://www.fitwatch.org.uk/2011/05/09/fit-cops-cover-up-attack-on-ian-tomlinson/

how many cops have expressed concern at any of the 1,400+ cases of deaths in police custody?

and when grave concerns are raised about cops, they're frequently not shared by cops or former cops. for example, former detective chief superintendent graham melvin was, about five or six years ago, president of the association of ex-cid officers of the metropolitan police. the association says that membership is open to all former members of the cid of the metropolitan police on their retirement or resignation from the police service and to any ex-officer who served part of his or her service in the metropolitan police as a cid officer. its objects are to maintain the comradeship formerly enjoyed in the cid. many urbanites will recall melvin as one of the officers charged and prosecuted over police misconduct in the aftermath of the broadwater farm riot. it says a lot about the former members of the cid that they would choose as their president a man like melvin.


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## CyberRose (Sep 23, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> maybe the majority are not "nazi pig cunts".


What percentage are?


----------



## Lemon Eddy (Sep 23, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> how many cops have expressed concern at any of the 1,400+ cases of deaths in police custody?



Are you referring to "1,433 people in England and Wales have died either in police custody or following other police contact since 1990,"?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2012/jul/19/deaths-police-custody-data

Because "following other police contact" does make it a rather broad category.

Obviously you've got your experiences of dealing with the police, and you make no secret of your dislike for them.  For my part, of all the countries I've lived in I've found british police to be the easiest to deal with.  Hell, even dutch police were a bolshier lot.  With 130,000 serving officers, you're obviously going to have several thousand complete arseholes serving, but that's just humanity for you.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 23, 2012)

Lemon Eddy said:


> Are you referring to "1,433 people in England and Wales have died either in police custody or following other police contact since 1990,"?
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2012/jul/19/deaths-police-custody-data
> 
> ...


i'll take that as 'none i'm aware of then'


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 23, 2012)

CyberRose said:


> What percentage are?


why not ask andrew?


----------



## Andrew Hertford (Sep 24, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> maybe the majority are not "nazi pig cunts". but that doesn't stop the constabulary being staffed by bastards. you'll no doubt recall the heartwarming show of support their colleagues in (then) so19 gave neil sharman and kevin fagan, who shot harry stanley, when they threatened to down guns: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-324408/Crisis-looms-police-guns-protest.html
> 
> how many cops came forward when they knew simon harwood was responsible for ian tomlinson's death? not ryan cowlin, steve discombe or alan "perjurer" palfrey: http://www.fitwatch.org.uk/2011/05/09/fit-cops-cover-up-attack-on-ian-tomlinson/
> 
> ...


 
Can't argue with much of that.


----------



## Andrew Hertford (Sep 24, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> why not ask andrew?


 
You'd have to define nazi pig cunt for me.


----------



## Lemon Eddy (Sep 24, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> i'll take that as 'none i'm aware of then'


 
You are correct. I'm not aware of senior policemen stating concern at the numbers in the IPCC report, and unfortunately the similarly named climate control IPCC messes about with google searches. If I get some time today I'll try to do a proper search.

Can you confirm though that that is the report you're talking about? If so, going by this article that would mean 1433 deaths in custody and following contact, and 950 deaths in custody over the 22 year period.

Obviously any level of death is a concern, and needs to be investigated. I'm just saying though that such a low level does not support ACAB views that the police are an institute of thugs and killers.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 24, 2012)

Andrew Hertford said:


> You'd have to define nazi pig cunt for me.


Why would I have to define it for you? You've been happy enough using it before my post.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 24, 2012)

Lemon Eddy said:


> You are correct. I'm not aware of senior policemen stating concern at the numbers in the IPCC report, and unfortunately the similarly named climate control IPCC messes about with google searches. If I get some time today I'll try to do a proper search.
> 
> Can you confirm though that that is the report you're talking about? If so, going by this article that would mean 1433 deaths in custody and following contact, and 950 deaths in custody over the 22 year period.
> 
> Obviously any level of death is a concern, and needs to be investigated. I'm just saying though that such a low level does not support ACAB views that the police are an institute of thugs and killers.


I have never worked for an organization which has killed someone, and those organizations have, in total, existed for many hundreds of years longer than the police have existed. Yet the police have managed involvement in the deaths of many hundreds of people in the last 22 years alone and you describe this as a low level. I'm fucking glad we aren't at that stage, that high level, we would have to see before you agree 'all coppers are bastards'. Btw my acab views aren't entirely based on their bloodthistiness. And finally, how many people did the army kill in the 6 cos 1969-1998? If memory serves it's less than the army and ruc killed (to 2001). And most people would say that was quite a few...


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## Lemon Eddy (Sep 24, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> I have never worked for an organization which has killed someone, and those organizations have, in total, existed for many hundreds of years longer than the police have existed.


 
Which is a bit meaningless without the context of what rolls those organizations perform?  I imagine the British Library, for instance, doesn't see many scenarios with elements of risk.


----------



## Lemon Eddy (Sep 24, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> And finally, how many people did the army kill in the 6 cos 1969-1998?


 
I don't know.  Do you have those figures?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 24, 2012)

Lemon Eddy said:


> I don't know. Do you have those figures?


it's 365 (through 2001) for "the security forces" fyi


----------



## Lemon Eddy (Sep 24, 2012)

Cheers for that.  At the risk of sounding thick, can you clarify the point you're making here?

Tempted to use a smiley, but I hate the damned things.  The above is an honest question, not sark.  I'm not making the connection between the army killing 361 people in 29 years in Northern Ireland, and 1400 people dying after police involvement in the UK between 1990 and 2012.  If the point is that the army killed fewer people through direct military action, it certainly gives pause for thought, but really you'd also have to see just how they defined "army kills", and also how many police involvement deaths there were.


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## Pickman's model (Sep 24, 2012)

Lemon Eddy said:


> Cheers for that. At the risk of sounding thick, can you clarify the point you're making here?
> 
> Tempted to use a smiley, but I hate the damned things. The above is an honest question, not sark. I'm not making the connection between the army killing 361 people in 29 years in Northern Ireland, and 1400 people dying after police involvement in the UK between 1990 and 2012. If the point is that the army killed fewer people through direct military action, it certainly gives pause for thought, but really you'd also have to see just how they defined "army kills", and also how many police involvement deaths there were.


if you're that interested you should have a look at the book 'lost lives' which goes through every death related to the troubles at some length.

but you were saying how you felt there was a low level of death associated with the police.


----------



## Lemon Eddy (Sep 24, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> if you're that interested you should have a look at the book 'lost lives' which goes through every death related to the troubles at some length.
> 
> but you were saying how you felt there was a low level of death associated with the police.


 
Ta for the recommendation.  Will pick that up.

I see your counterpoint, but to me the numbers are still low, as a percentage of the total number of situations with risk that the police will be involved in.  From the numbers given, you're talking 50 per year die in custody.  That means a policeman is 60% more likely to kill me than my bathtub is, going by the 2010 figures for accidental death.  Again, this is not an attempt at being facetious, just an illustration of the likelihood.  It just isn't the sort of figure I'd expect if the police was seriously riddled with dangerous officers.  Perhaps I'm being naive, but that seems like a reasonably low figure considering how many drunks/violent types/addicts/other high risk types they deal with.

To give another example, I seem to be much more at risk of my doctor killing me.  According to this study, basic mistakes in the NHS kill 1000 patients per month.  Obviously in any situation mistakes can happen, and even the best of systems will have fuckups so again it's not a big surprise that such tragedies occur.  Like the police custody deaths, it's a topic that needs to be reviewed seriously to see what improvements can be made, something that the cuts of the last three/four/however many governments will not have helped at all.  I don't see it as proof though that there is a problem with the intent or mindset of the people in the NHS itself though.


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## Pickman's model (Sep 24, 2012)

Lemon Eddy said:


> Ta for the recommendation. Will pick that up.
> 
> I see your counterpoint, but to me the numbers are still low, as a percentage of the total number of situations with risk that the police will be involved in. From the numbers given, you're talking 50 per year die in custody. That means a policeman is 60% more likely to kill me than my bathtub is, going by the 2010 figures for accidental death. Again, this is not an attempt at being facetious, just an illustration of the likelihood. It just isn't the sort of figure I'd expect if the police was seriously riddled with dangerous officers. Perhaps I'm being naive, but that seems like a reasonably low figure considering how many drunks/violent types/addicts/other high risk types they deal with.
> 
> To give another example, I seem to be much more at risk of my doctor killing me. According to this study, basic mistakes in the NHS kill 1000 patients per month. Obviously in any situation mistakes can happen, and even the best of systems will have fuckups so again it's not a big surprise that such tragedies occur. Like the police custody deaths, it's a topic that needs to be reviewed seriously to see what improvements can be made, something that the cuts of the last three/four/however many governments will not have helped at all. I don't see it as proof though that there is a problem with the intent or mindset of the people in the NHS itself though.


it's not, to my mind, a basick mistake to asphyxiate someone, to shoot someone carrying eg a chairleg or to push someone to the ground from behind. nor is it, imo, a mistake to try to fit someone up, to harass a certain section of society (for example, young people), to assault and injure people posing no threat, etc etc ad nauseam. but as i have said above, there's more to the view that all coppers are bastards than simply the notion they kill people.


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## high castle (Sep 25, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> i think what you're trying to say is that while you have known failed cops - people who never joined the force - you don't in fact know anyone who has joined the police.
> 
> frankly if people look on joining the police as just another job i suspect that's why they weren't in fact admitted. i expect that the police see their role as something more than just another job, whether they're the bright-eyed idealist or the hard-nosed cynick.
> 
> in any event you've rather fucked your initial two sentences when you admit you don't know any cops.


Well, they weren't rejected. Although I'm not that familiar with the process, I know they fully intended to become police officers but it turned out to involve long periods of waiting. Perhaps they would have been rejected - I don't know - perhaps not.

I've had incidents with the police in my youth that still make me angry, but it's hard to go anyway to proving that thousands of people are all 'bastards/nazi scum'. Common sense would tell you that such a statement is silly and facile, hence brushing off the tragic murder of two people you know nothing about strikes me that way too.


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## Lemon Eddy (Sep 25, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> it's not, to my mind, a basick mistake to asphyxiate someone, to shoot someone carrying eg a chairleg or to push someone to the ground from behind. nor is it, imo, a mistake to try to fit someone up, to harass a certain section of society (for example, young people), to assault and injure people posing no threat, etc etc ad nauseam. but as i have said above, there's more to the view that all coppers are bastards than simply the notion they kill people.


 
I'd have to argue that killing someone without due cause is definitely a very basic mistake for a police person.  I'd hope one of the key fundamentals for trainee police is not killing people.

With regards to the other factors you mention - harassment, fitting up, etc - those are undeniably causes for developing a profound dislike for the police.  Please note though I was just commenting on the key cause you mentioned earlier (deaths in homicide).


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## Pickman's model (Sep 25, 2012)

high castle said:


> Well, they weren't rejected. Although I'm not that familiar with the process, I know they fully intended to become police officers but it turned out to involve long periods of waiting. Perhaps they would have been rejected - I don't know - perhaps not.
> 
> I've had incidents with the police in my youth that still make me angry, but it's hard to go anyway to proving that thousands of people are all 'bastards/nazi scum'. Common sense would tell you that such a statement is silly and facile, hence brushing off the tragic murder of two people you know nothing about strikes me that way too.


strawmen and pious platitudes


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## high castle (Sep 25, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> strawmen and pious platitudes


 


Pickman's model said:


> colin roach, rip
> 
> http://4wardevernewsvine.wordpress.com/2009/01/10/26-years-on-colins-story/


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## Pickman's model (Sep 25, 2012)

What's your point caller?


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## TopCat (Sep 25, 2012)

I was looking  for my tears for those _brav_e WPC's earlier. I'll keep looking. Might take a while to locate them mind. 

ACAB


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## smokedout (Sep 26, 2012)

Lemon Eddy said:


> With regards to the other factors you mention - harassment, fitting up, etc - those are undeniably causes for developing a profound dislike for the police. Please note though I was just commenting on the key cause you mentioned earlier (deaths in homicide).


 
but thats the point, the deaths are the tip of a very nasty iceberg which extends to hundreds of thousands of assaults, harassment, casual racism, fitting up, covering up, scabbing, BNP joining,  surpressing protest etc

as well as this we have beanfield, orgreave, wapping and countless more smaller style incidents of police violence many of which are barely recorded - as well as a barely disguised contempt for the poor amongst almost all officers which manifests on an almost daily basis for some people

so we're clearly not talking about a few bastards but institutional bastardery, which can be shortened to acab

if acab isn't correct then why are all the above endemic and why does no copper ever speak to condemn the situation


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## smokedout (Sep 26, 2012)

and just because they might be nice to middle class people whove been burgled doesnt change that, hitler was a vegetarian


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## Lemon Eddy (Sep 26, 2012)

smokedout said:


> and just because they might be nice to middle class people whove been burgled doesnt change that, hitler was a vegetarian


 
Personal bugbear, so please excuse a hijack...but Hitler was not a vegetarian:

http://mythverse.com/2011/07/17/healthy-hitler/


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## Lemon Eddy (Sep 26, 2012)

smokedout said:


> but thats the point, the deaths are the tip of a very nasty iceberg which extends to hundreds of thousands of assaults, harassment, casual racism, fitting up, covering up, scabbing, BNP joining, surpressing protest etc


 
There's no doubt that most of the above would all lend weight to an ACAB stance, but as noted I was just commenting on Pickman's original point. Doing otherwise would have left me open to accusations of strawman tactics, etc.

If you want to bring the above into discussion that's completely valid, obviously - but you then need to bring some actual numbers to the table. I hope that no-one here realistically expects that you're ever going to build an organisation of 130,000 that will not consist of at least a few thousand complete bastards. Human nature is human nature. Let's say that 5 out of 100 people are right cunts, well statistically that's 6500 bastards in positions of authority. How many thousand such events do you reckon that would lead to in a year? And frankly, I think I'm being damned generous to mankind in saying that on average only 1 person in 20 is an arsehole.

I'd suggest as an additional factor that the job of a policeman is likely to erode your normal optimism about people, and make you more cynical. If your daily job involved responding to incidents of domestic violence, theft, drunks and so on just how long do you reckon before you became significantly less well disposed towards people on the whole?

Finally, and at risk of tldr responses, there's the undeniable point that the role of police will inevitably put them at odds with people. Pickman gave the example of police harassing young people but quite often that's because they've been asked to disperse a group of kids, or are looking for a vague description (Average height, wearing dark hoody, etc) or because kids are being a bit lairy/having a drink/whatever. I reckon any parent with teenage kids would agree that when a kid is shouting about persecution, there's a significant chance it's because they've been caught out on something.


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## The Octagon (Oct 11, 2012)

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/anti-police-t-shirt-man-jailed-132134587.html

Better watch the ACAB sentiments apparently..


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## xes (Oct 11, 2012)

Better watch any sentiments which go against the police/goverment. They're going to need to start building new prisons to keep us all in. But then, they will, and the police will only too happily lock people up for the heinous crime of Tshirt wearing. Because they are scum.

ACAB.


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## treelover (Oct 11, 2012)

The Octagon said:


> http://uk.news.yahoo.com/anti-police-t-shirt-man-jailed-132134587.html
> 
> Better watch the ACAB sentiments apparently..


 
Blimey, wouldn't like to be him in prison, the screws will give him a very hard time,

btw, 8 months, its horrible what he did, but that's a heavy sentence...


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## treelover (Oct 11, 2012)

> When arrested, Thew replied: "Not bothered." The court heard that he was arrested after police received reports from outraged members of the public.
> Stuart Duke, defending, said Thew had been an inpatient at a mental health unit and was still on anti-psychotic medicine, but the judge replied mental health was "not a factor".
> He said Thew had a longstanding dispute with Greater Manchester police over the death of his son three years ago and repeated stop-and-search procedures. He said the wearing of the T-shirt was not in response to the deaths of the two police officers, but was related to another case. He said he was already wearing the T-shirt when he heard the news.


 
maybe more complex than first thought...


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## Lemon Eddy (Oct 11, 2012)

The Octagon said:


> http://uk.news.yahoo.com/anti-police-t-shirt-man-jailed-132134587.html
> 
> Better watch the ACAB sentiments apparently..


 
This is getting fucking ridiculous.


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## Frances Lengel (Oct 11, 2012)

The Octagon said:


> http://uk.news.yahoo.com/anti-police-t-shirt-man-jailed-132134587.html
> 
> Better watch the ACAB sentiments apparently..


 
That's a fucking farce - Maybe if he was actually at/near the funeral but Radcliffe's miles away. No way should he have got jail.


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## DotCommunist (Oct 11, 2012)

police state etc


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## The39thStep (Oct 11, 2012)

treelover said:


> Blimey, wouldn't like to be him in prison, the screws will give him a very hard time,
> 
> btw, 8 months, its horrible what he did, but that's a heavy sentence...


 
A number of people I know who may not fit the entire description of upstanding citizens have nothing but scorn and contempt for the cold blooded murder of two women. I suspect it won't just be the screws who give him a hard time tbh


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## Frances Lengel (Oct 11, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> A number of people I know who may not fit the entire description of upstanding citizens have nothing but scorn and contempt for the cold blooded murder of two women. I suspect it won't just be the screws who give him a hard time tbh


 
Doesn't mean a mentally ill man should get jail for wearing a t shirt. In fact, his mental health has no relevence (the judge was right about that at least) - Nobody should be jailed for wearing a t shirt.


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## The39thStep (Oct 11, 2012)

Frances Lengel said:


> Doesn't mean a mentally ill man should get jail for wearing a t shirt. In fact, his mental health has no relevence (the judge was right about that at least) - Nobody should be jailed for wearing a t shirt.


 
Irrelevant to quoting what I said. Best for you to make your point separately?


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## Frances Lengel (Oct 11, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> Irrelevant to quoting what I said. Best for you to make your point separately?


 



The39thStep said:


> Irrelevant to quoting what I said. Best for you to make your point separately?


 
Sorry I misread your post. My fault.


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## DaveCinzano (Oct 11, 2012)

I would be interested to hear about the actual copper that Mr Thew's t-shirt referred to, and exactly how Mr Thew's son died.


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## The39thStep (Oct 11, 2012)

Frances Lengel said:


> Sorry I misread your post. My fault.


 
Cheers.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 31, 2016)

not sure what 'as he is' means, were they going to give him cosmetick surgery or a new eye or something?


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 31, 2016)

as he is a very naughty boy.


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## likesfish (Sep 1, 2016)

Frances Lengel said:


> Doesn't mean a mentally ill man should get jail for wearing a t shirt. In fact, his mental health has no relevence (the judge was right about that at least) - Nobody should be jailed for wearing a t shirt.



With 29 convictions for 77 offences and being subject to a suspened sentence at the time complaining about repeated stop and searches is a bit .
  The police stop and search you because your up to no good.
	Cant find anything about his son though nothing is coming up on inquests web site and the only vaugley related was a sucide in a young offenders insistuite


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## Pickman's model (Sep 1, 2016)

likesfish said:


> The police stop and search you because your up to no good.


that's utter bollocks. i've been stopped and searched loads of times without any reasonable cause. once on the way back from the pub i stopped at a payphone to call my brother. i saw there was someone waiting in the shadows near the phonebox so i made my excuses and hung up, so they could use it (it was the days before mobiles). yer man steps forwards, it's a cop who proceeds to search me on the basis of being suspected of burglaries round the corner from my mum's.


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## likesfish (Sep 1, 2016)

Yeah but you havnt been convicted 29 times. Been stopped three times by police myself

It was like a client of mine complaining security guards followed him about when ever he went in a shop because he was from liverpool.
 I did point out he was a heroin addict who'd been arressted many many times for shop lifting so security guards following it wasnt actually harressment it was them doing there job


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## Pickman's model (Sep 1, 2016)

likesfish said:


> Yeah but you havnt been convicted 29 times. Been stopped three times by police myself
> 
> It was like a client of mine complaining security guards followed him about when ever he went in a shop because he was from liverpool.
> I did point out he was a heroin addict who'd been arressted many many times for shop lifting so security guards following it wasnt actually harressment it was them doing there job


yeh. well, i've been arrested thrice, never charged, never convicted, and the majority of my stops and searches took place before the first of my arrests.


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## albionism (Sep 1, 2016)

Been stopped and searched loads of times, but never the times when i was actually up to no good.


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## Pickman's model (Sep 1, 2016)

albionism said:


> Been stopped and searched loads of times, but never the times when i was actually up to no good.


i remember being searched in bethnal green with a load of afa, the sergeant searching me asked why i had a half empty lucozade bottle: 'i wasn't as thirsty as i thought officer'
cop: so you're not intending to use it in the wrong way, then
me (wide-eyed and innocent): the wrong way? why, officer, whatever do you mean?


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## existentialist (Sep 1, 2016)

I've been stopped a few times, but never searched. I've been hauled into the station once, but that all went a bit interesting when my dad arrived (my brother was 16, so they had to call him) and the sergeant turned out to have been a pupil of his: nothing came of that. He (the sergeant) went down for murder a few years later


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## equationgirl (Sep 1, 2016)

I 've not had the pleasure of being stopped and searched, only questioned and threatened a couple of times.

I think I've got off lightly considering what you lot have experienced.


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## Pickman's model (Sep 1, 2016)

equationgirl said:


> I 've not had the pleasure of being stopped and searched, only questioned and threatened a couple of times.
> 
> I think I've got off lightly considering what you lot have experienced.


oh, i hadn't counted being threatened. threatened with arrest more times than i can remember, though when confronted with a 'go on then' this thread has always disappeared. threatened with violence again quite a lot too.


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## belboid (Sep 1, 2016)

likesfish said:


> Yeah but you havnt been convicted 29 times. Been stopped three times by police myself
> 
> It was like a client of mine complaining security guards followed him about when ever he went in a shop because he was from liverpool.
> I did point out he was a heroin addict who'd been arressted many many times for shop lifting so security guards following it wasnt actually harressment it was them doing there job


That is almost exactly what the law says you can't do. 

People aren't suspicious, behaviour is. PACE Code A explicitly rules out S&S on somebody because of their previous.


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## The Boy (Sep 1, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> i remember being searched in bethnal green with a load of afa, the sergeant searching me asked why i had a half empty lucozade bottle: 'i wasn't as thirsty as i thought officer'
> cop: so you're not intending to use it in the wrong way, then
> me (wide-eyed and innocent): the wrong way? why, officer, whatever do you mean?



Tbf, the sergeant may just have been worried you might accidentally the whole bottle.


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## Pickman's model (Sep 1, 2016)

The Boy said:


> Tbf, the sergeant may just have been worried you might accidentally the whole bottle.


one of the other officers said 'sarge, you'll be surprised, they're all drinking lucozade' 

it was a sad day when they changed the bottles to plastic


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## likesfish (Sep 1, 2016)

belboid said:


> That is almost exactly what the law says you can't do.
> 
> People aren't suspicious, behaviour is. PACE Code A explicitly rules out S&S on somebody because of their previous.




	But then again if he's out and about  acting suspiciously  he's been convicted 29 times we arnt dealing with a criminal master mind here.


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## albionism (Sep 1, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> i remember being searched in bethnal green with a load of afa, the sergeant searching me asked why i had a half empty lucozade bottle: 'i wasn't as thirsty as i thought officer'
> cop: so you're not intending to use it in the wrong way, then
> me (wide-eyed and innocent): the wrong way? why, officer, whatever do you mean?


You weren't in the vicinity of "The Sun" public house were you?


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## Pickman's model (Sep 1, 2016)

albionism said:


> You weren't in the vicinity of "The Sun" public house were you?


no, we headed north on cambridge heath road then right on i think patriot square, then right again. we were searched by some railings (by some railings when we were searched might be a better way of putting it!). the only pub we'd been in was the now closed one on the west side of the street just north of the canal.


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## albionism (Sep 1, 2016)

The Rose and Crown? . Just thought you might have been paying The Sun a visit if you were with anti-fash, as it used to be a well known BNP pub.


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## belboid (Sep 1, 2016)

likesfish said:


> But then again if he's out and about  acting suspiciously  he's been convicted 29 times we arnt dealing with a criminal master mind here.


Sounds rather like wearing a loud shirt in a built up area territory


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## DotCommunist (Sep 1, 2016)

table leg


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## Pickman's model (Sep 1, 2016)

albionism said:


> The Rose and Crown? . Just thought you might have been paying The Sun a visit if you were with anti-fash, as it used to be a well known BNP pub.


no, we didn't go that way that night.


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## Orang Utan (Sep 1, 2016)

I have to say I'm impressed by his shooting ability if he's only got one eye


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## Pickman's model (Sep 1, 2016)

albionism said:


> The Rose and Crown? . Just thought you might have been paying The Sun a visit if you were with anti-fash, as it used to be a well known BNP pub.


they've fewer than 50 members in london and the south-east now, if hope not hate are to be believed.


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## likesfish (Sep 1, 2016)

belboid said:


> Sounds rather like wearing a loud shirt in a built up area territory



Not really he's actually been convicted 29 times not harrassed because the police belive he's a wrong one they belive that because he is one.


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## Pickman's model (Sep 1, 2016)

albionism said:


> The Rose and Crown? . Just thought you might have been paying The Sun a visit if you were with anti-fash, as it used to be a well known BNP pub.


Iirc night of the local elections 1994, lots of trots o/s York Hall


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## albionism (Sep 2, 2016)

Ah yeah, the Fash were having a meeting in York Hall. I was
one of those opposite.


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