# TfL denied Uber operator license, ride hailing service wins on appeal (Sept 2020)



## bemused (Sep 22, 2017)

Blimey, I'm gobsmacked.


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## killer b (Sep 22, 2017)

Great stuff. Fuck 'em.


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## gawkrodger (Sep 22, 2017)

how I laughed


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## Teaboy (Sep 22, 2017)

There will be many a Londoner in tears this morning.  Some people have got used to be chauffeured around, back to the tube with the rest of us, hah.


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## Supine (Sep 22, 2017)

Haha


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## Teaboy (Sep 22, 2017)

I bet its that last one about Greyball which pissed TFL off.  They've just thrown the other stuff in to make it look about safety etc.


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## bemused (Sep 22, 2017)

Teaboy said:


> There will be many a Londoner in tears this morning.  Some people have got used to be chauffeured around, back to the tube with the rest of us, hah.



I must admit I use the uber-family service all the time. It's going to be a pain in the arse, but I'll get over it. 

I wonder if this means Uber Eats is also in trouble?


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## NoXion (Sep 22, 2017)

Teaboy said:


> I bet its that last one about Greyball which pissed TFL off.  They've just thrown the other stuff in to make it look about safety etc.


 Although to be fair to TfL, Greyball is exactly the kind of thing that an organisation with something to hide would do.


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## cupid_stunt (Sep 22, 2017)

Very surprised by this, feel a bit sorry for the drivers, but fuck uber.

Although, I guess they will launch an appeal.


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## ffsear (Sep 22, 2017)

IS this just within London?


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## TruXta (Sep 22, 2017)

Hahahaha!


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## joustmaster (Sep 22, 2017)

I use Uber a lot. 
Am I going to have to go back to using the fucking bus?


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## Orang Utan (Sep 22, 2017)

ffsear said:


> IS this just within London?


I don't think Transport For *London *have jurisdiction elsewhere


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## Teaboy (Sep 22, 2017)

I predict that the matter will be resolved before the end of the month,.


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## bimble (Sep 22, 2017)

What does "a fit and proper operator" mean? edit: oh ok see the list of things they've been told off for. Not great news for uber drivers I guess (?)


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## ffsear (Sep 22, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> I don't think Transport For *London *have jurisdiction elsewhere




SO if i get a uber from say... Caterham,  its will only be able to go so far and not enter London?


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## ffsear (Sep 22, 2017)

joustmaster said:


> I use Uber a lot.
> Am I going to have to go back to using the fucking bus?



I should imagine this is just TFL saying "up your game and give us more money"


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## Teaboy (Sep 22, 2017)

bemused said:


> I must admit I use the uber-family service all the time. It's going to be a pain in the arse, but I'll get over it.
> 
> I wonder if this means Uber Eats is also in trouble?



Yeah it can be a very handy thing and generally the arrival of Uber has been a positive thing.  My gripe is that some people have got used to getting an uber everywhere and they don't consider public transport anymore.  That is not sustainable and London's roads are now utterly clogged with Toyota Prius.


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## Orang Utan (Sep 22, 2017)

It's too pricey for a lot of people.
The bus is still the best way to get around.if you don't have a lot of money.


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## Teaboy (Sep 22, 2017)

joustmaster said:


> I use Uber a lot.
> Am I going to have to go back to using the fucking bus?



Urgh, I know, sharing transport with poor people.


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## bemused (Sep 22, 2017)

Teaboy said:


> Yeah it can be a very handy thing and generally the arrival of Uber has been a positive thing.  My gripe is that some people have got used to getting an uber everywhere and they don't consider public transport anymore.  That is not sustainable and London's roads are now utterly clogged with Toyota Prius.



I like public transport; headphones and a kindle. It is useful if the kids need picking up from somewhere, used that once or twice.


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## cupid_stunt (Sep 22, 2017)

ffsear said:


> I should imagine this is just TFL saying "up your game and give us more money"



TFL was considering renewal with an increase in the 5-year licence fee from £3k to £3m, but decided not to renew.

Uber will have to pay almost £3m to continue operating in London

Interesting background info here: There is a chance Uber is about to lose its London licence

And, yes, as expected uber is launching an appeal: 





> "To defend the livelihoods of all those drivers, and the consumer choice of millions of Londoners who use our app, we intend to immediately challenge this in the courts."


TfL rules Uber's London licence will not be renewed


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## bemused (Sep 22, 2017)

cupid_stunt said:


> And, yes, as expected uber is launching an appeal:



I'm betting they win.


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## Teaboy (Sep 22, 2017)

I'd never heard of Greyball before.  It does sound proper suss.

Uber just revealed the program it uses to evade cops while breaking the law


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## not-bono-ever (Sep 22, 2017)

skimping fuckers not doing the full background checks to save money ( profits). a shitter for the drivers thoigh


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## t0bytoo (Sep 22, 2017)

Prepare for a flood of cheap Toyota Prius in the secondhand car market.


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## Teaboy (Sep 22, 2017)

If its one thing all these new big tech companies have in common (apart from losing loads of money) is breathtaking levels of arrogance.


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## Crispy (Sep 22, 2017)

Uber are a shower of shits. Fuck em.


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## t0bytoo (Sep 22, 2017)

But will they keep the whole thing in the courts (and keep operating)? Twenty years ago Microsoft were paying a million quid a day (or some huge amount like that) to keep their anti-trust case in the courts.


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## DotCommunist (Sep 22, 2017)

I think I hear Nelson Muntz laughing


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## Teaboy (Sep 22, 2017)

Blimey, they've even managed to get Crispy wound up.  Shit got real.


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## bemused (Sep 22, 2017)

Teaboy said:


> I'd never heard of Greyball before.  It does sound proper suss.
> 
> Uber just revealed the program it uses to evade cops while breaking the law



As commercial organisation who designs their application to detect law enforcement is asking for a kick in the balls.


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## not-bono-ever (Sep 22, 2017)

uber are under a shit load of pressure across the board- not sure they have the recource to string this out for years -


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## bimble (Sep 22, 2017)

I've used uber about three times ever so no loss to me if it disappears but there'd be a huge amount of people out of a job. 
Almost certainly its just going to have to promise to mend its ways and business as usual will resume.


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## Teaboy (Sep 22, 2017)

As funny as it is though it must be a real worry for the drivers.  If you just operate as an Uber driver where will you get your fares from if the tap is turned off?


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## EastEnder (Sep 22, 2017)

joustmaster said:


> I use Uber a lot.
> Am I going to have to go back to using the fucking bus?


Yep, and you'll have to wait ages for one, then it'll be full of screaming kids & you'll end up sat next to old chap smelling of wee who asks you to be his friend.

Back to the good old days for you!


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## editor (Sep 22, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> It's too pricey for a lot of people.
> The bus is still the best way to get around.if you don't have a lot of money.


Uber is infinitely cheaper than fucking black cabs who I have nothing but contempt from the days when they'd ignore their own rules and refuse to drive me to Brixton.


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## Orang Utan (Sep 22, 2017)

editor said:


> Uber is infinitely cheaper than fucking black cabs who I have nothing but contempt from the days when they'd ignore their own rules and refuse to drive me to Brixton.


still too dear for many transport users. When I lived in London, I was on an average salary, and I couldn't really afford to use them.


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## cupid_stunt (Sep 22, 2017)

editor said:


> Uber is infinitely cheaper than fucking black cabs who I have nothing but contempt from the days when they'd ignore their own rules and refuse to drive me to Brixton.



You should have respected the sign.


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## joustmaster (Sep 22, 2017)

EastEnder said:


> Yep, and you'll have to wait ages for one, then it'll be full of screaming kids & you'll end up sat next to old chap smelling of wee who asks you to be his friend.
> 
> Back to the good old days for you!


fuck it
i'll drunk cycle a boris bike home


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## Crispy (Sep 22, 2017)

Teaboy said:


> Blimey, they've even managed to get Crispy wound up.  Shit got real.


One of the worst examples of "gig economy" companies. Even Addison Lee, shady and ill-reputed as they are, treat their drivers better. If you have to take a taxi, don't take an uber.


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## maomao (Sep 22, 2017)

The part of me that has come close to being put out of a job by Uber is very happy. The part of me that likes being able to get a cab home for eight pounds in under two minutes from Newbury Park is a bit upset.

Realistically, they could still win their appeal and if they don't it will create a big vacuum which Gett and erm the other one whose name I forget, will be quite happy to fill and won't be treating their drivers any better in their rush to fill it.


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## quimcunx (Sep 22, 2017)

Teaboy said:


> As funny as it is though it must be a real worry for the drivers.  If you just operate as an Uber driver where will you get your fares from if the tap is turned off?



Someone I know who has been using uber a lot in Guildford says the drivers tell her they want uber to lose its licence.


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## Borp (Sep 22, 2017)

One thing I never see mentioned about uber is the app doesn't stop drivers from working any amount of hours. A driver can work 24 hours straight if they want. The app doesn't stop them. I've had a chat with a few drivers about this and they've confirmed it. One of them said he used to drive incredibly long hours but after a crash he's stopped it. 
That doesn't seem right to me.


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## Spymaster (Sep 22, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> still too dear for many transport users. When I lived in London, I was on an average salary, and I couldn't really afford to use them.


That's you though. There are plenty of people that could never have afforded the ridiculous black cab fares for whom Uber opened up other possibilities and made their lives a bit easier. 

I don't think Uber are going out of London. They'll appeal and probably be granted an interim licence whilst they do so. 

I don't care much one way or the other, although losing Uber Eats will be a bit of a ball ache because they're the only outfit who deliver McDonalds round our way.


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## kabbes (Sep 22, 2017)

quimcunx said:


> Someone I know who has been using uber a lot in Guildford says the drivers tell her they want uber to lose its licence.


teuchter isn't a "her", silly quimbly.


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## ffsear (Sep 22, 2017)

Oh well, Back to using illegal minicabs i guess.


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## maomao (Sep 22, 2017)

Crispy said:


> One of the worst examples of "gig economy" companies. Even Addison Lee, shady and ill-reputed as they are, treat their drivers better. If you have to take a taxi, don't take an uber.



Hmmm. I don't think there's much between their attitudes to drivers. They have a driver liaison department at AL to try and persuade the drivers they're gtting a good deal while you'd be lucky to get an email out of Uber but both are very much 'like it or lump it'. If AL have got any better since I was last in their office then it's because of Uber.


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## Reiabuzz (Sep 22, 2017)

Right, so tfl sets the extortionate rates that black cabs charge and also approves (or not) the licenses for rivals? How is that fair?


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## Teaboy (Sep 22, 2017)

quimcunx said:


> Someone I know who has been using uber a lot in Guildford says the drivers tell her they want uber to lose its licence.



Fair enough.  I guess they think it might force them to up it's game?


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## ricbake (Sep 22, 2017)

They will appeal and can keep operating while the appeal is in the courts. They will make efforts to comply and get the licence. But it will mean they will be more expensive and they will squeeze the drivers more to stay competitive and very profitable.


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## Spymaster (Sep 22, 2017)

maomao said:


> Realistically, they could still win their appeal and if they don't it will create a big vacuum which Gett and erm the other one whose name I forget ...


Kabbee?


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## maomao (Sep 22, 2017)

quimcunx said:


> Someone I know who has been using uber a lot in Guildford says the drivers tell her they want uber to lose its licence.


Uber hasn't lost it's license in Guildford.


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## bemused (Sep 22, 2017)

ricbake said:


> They will appeal and can keep operating while the appeal is in the courts. They will make efforts to comply and get the licence. But it will mean they will be more expensive and they will squeeze the drivers more to stay competitive and very profitable.



How long, I wonder, could they drag the appeal out?


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## Teaboy (Sep 22, 2017)

ffsear said:


> Oh well, Back to using illegal minicabs i guess.



The glory days of being driven home by a maniac in old mondeo who had just boshed vast amounts of amphet.


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## maomao (Sep 22, 2017)

Spymaster said:


> Kabbee?


No, kabbee are jokers. They're just a platform offering work to anyone who'll do it at shit rates. There's another big money backed firm ready to step in. I was trying to eavesdrop a management conversation about it the other day but I was too busy to do so accurately.


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## bemused (Sep 22, 2017)

Teaboy said:


> The glory days of being driven home by a maniac in old mondeo who had just boshed vast amounts of amphet.



My dad has to earn a living.


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## editor (Sep 22, 2017)

Crispy said:


> One of the worst examples of "gig economy" companies. Even Addison Lee, shady and ill-reputed as they are, treat their drivers better. If you have to take a taxi, don't take an uber.


Yet every time I've chatted to an Uber driver - expecting them to be full of complaints - every one of them has declared themselves happy with the service, saying that the trade off in not-so-great wages was worth it for the freedom to start and stop whenever they felt like it. 

And double-triple fuck Tory supporting scumbags Addison Lee. I'd rather walk. 

Subscribe to read


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## Spymaster (Sep 22, 2017)

maomao said:


> No, kabbee are jokers. They're just a platform offering work to anyone who'll do it at shit rates. There's another big money backed firm ready to step in. I was trying to eavesdrop a management conversation about it the other day but I was too busy to do so accurately.


You mean one that's not operating at the moment?


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## Crispy (Sep 22, 2017)

Borp said:


> One thing I never see mentioned about uber is the app doesn't stop drivers from working any amount of hours. A driver can work 24 hours straight if they want. The app doesn't stop them. I've had a chat with a few drivers about this and they've confirmed it. One of them said he used to drive incredibly long hours but after a crash he's stopped it.
> That doesn't seem right to me.



Hooray for freedom


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## bemused (Sep 22, 2017)

Crispy said:


> Hooray for freedom



Any cab driver can do this.


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## cupid_stunt (Sep 22, 2017)

Spymaster I'll be surprised if this affects Uber Eats much, I doubt that operation requires a TFL licence.


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## skyscraper101 (Sep 22, 2017)

I would have no problem fucking off Uber for another service if it could provide a similar app interface, pooling options, and convenience of a cashless/cardless transaction.

However, I've yet to find anything which matches its seemless design. AND, I have massive issues with using Black Cabs (ripoff, noisy shit vehicles you can't sit up front in) and private hire (stupid expensive due to nonsense  antiquated law requiring running a physical booking office). Uber, at least had the ingenuity to make things like pooled cab rides a real thing and inexpensive for all plus the simplicity of seeing where your car is on a map just makes life easier for all.

TFL also need to get with licensing other rival companies to Uber (e.g. Taxify). Black cabs and minicabs are soooo last century and Uber rivals operate just as well in other cities e.g. Lyft in LA etc.

I mean, let's understand this is not ideal for anyone, but the drivers will be the worst affected in the short term. They are the ones have to pay a shit ton of money for their insurance, plus the TFL public carriage license which is more than what other cities require. There are also very big restrictions on what kind of vehicle can be used to be an uber driver. It's not a simple thing. They will lose out on this more than any of us if Uber cannot successfully appeal this, or get their license reinstated sharpish. Much as I may complain about not having their services for a while, and much as Uber lay lose millions on their potential loss of one of their major markets, it will be the drivers who are hardest hit.


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## Spymaster (Sep 22, 2017)

Borp said:


> One thing I never see mentioned about uber is the app doesn't stop drivers from working any amount of hours. A driver can work 24 hours straight if they want. The app doesn't stop them. I've had a chat with a few drivers about this and they've confirmed it. One of them said he used to drive incredibly long hours but after a crash he's stopped it.
> That doesn't seem right to me.


So what? Is there an app which prevents black cab and minicab drivers from working long hours? 

Is there something special about Uber drivers that they can't be trusted just like anyone else not to overwork?


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## IC3D (Sep 22, 2017)

Fuck load of drivers now stuck paying off cars they can't earn from, I don't think it's great. All a bit brexity. Many of the drivers are immigrants and the majority of black cabs are English. Raised glasses around Essex tonight.


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## flypanam (Sep 22, 2017)

maomao said:


> No, kabbee are jokers. They're just a platform offering work to anyone who'll do it at shit rates. There's another big money backed firm ready to step in. I was trying to eavesdrop a management conversation about it the other day but I was too busy to do so accurately.


Hailo?


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## UrbaneFox (Sep 22, 2017)

Uber drivers can't stop working when they feel like it. If a customer in London wants to go to Aberdeen airport they have to take the job or never work for Uber again. Good riddance. The fares would have gone up massively when black cabs had been forced out of business.


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## killer b (Sep 22, 2017)

editor said:


> Yet every time I've chatted to an Uber driver - expecting them to be full of complaints - every one of them has declared themselves happy with the service, saying that the trade off in not-so-great wages was worth it for the freedom to start and stop whenever they felt like it.


Haven't drivers been sacked for slagging off the company to fares?


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## Gromit (Sep 22, 2017)

Spymaster said:


> Is there an app which prevents black cab and minicab drivers from working long hours?


I was about to call you a racist then until I realised I was misreading the line.


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## Orang Utan (Sep 22, 2017)

skyscraper101 said:


> I have massive issues with using Black Cabs (ripoff, noisy shit vehicles you can't sit up front in)


why would you want to sit up front?


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## Reiabuzz (Sep 22, 2017)

Erm, can nobody else see the blatant conflict of interest here from TfL? Why isn’t an independent body in charge of these decisions? These guys run the black cabs.

This safety bullshit is just that. We all knows it’s about a cartel protecting their own and getting away with ripping off the rest of us. Fucking absurd.


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## cupid_stunt (Sep 22, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> why would you want to sit up front?



Better view of the accident.


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## bemused (Sep 22, 2017)

UrbaneFox said:


> Uber drivers can't stop working when they feel like it. If a customer in London wants to go to Aberdeen airport [..]



Why wouldn't they fly?


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## skyscraper101 (Sep 22, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> why would you want to sit up front?



Because why shouldn't I sit up front? There's a seat isn't there? I like to sit up front and its not a problem with every other taxi.


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## Orang Utan (Sep 22, 2017)

Reiabuzz said:


> Erm, can nobody else see the blatant conflict of interest here from TfL? Why isn’t an independent body in charge of these decisions? These guys run the black cabs.
> 
> This safety bullshit is just that. We all knows it’s about a cartel protecting their own and getting away with ripping off the rest of us. Fucking absurd.


buses are cheap, and they're in charge of those


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## Spymaster (Sep 22, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> why would you want to sit up front?


To talk to the driver.


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## Lambert Simnel (Sep 22, 2017)

Customers and drivers happy but the corporation isn't fluffy so everyone rejoices


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## killer b (Sep 22, 2017)

Reiabuzz said:


> Erm, can nobody else see the blatant conflict of interest here from TfL? Why isn’t an independent body in charge of these decisions? These guys run the black cabs.


TfL don't run the black cabs. They're the licensing authority.


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## Gromit (Sep 22, 2017)

Reiabuzz said:


> Erm, can nobody else see the blatant conflict of interest here from TfL? Why isn’t an independent body in charge of these decisions? These guys run the black cabs.
> 
> This safety bullshit is just that. We all knows it’s about a cartel protecting their own and getting away with ripping off the rest of us. Fucking absurd.


Black cab drivers are self employed.


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## Reiabuzz (Sep 22, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> buses are cheap, and they're in charge of those



I don’t get your point


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## Orang Utan (Sep 22, 2017)

skyscraper101 said:


> Because why shouldn't I sit up front? There's a seat isn't there? I like to sit up front and its not a problem with every other taxi.


are you 12?
it would feel a bit weird in a taxi anyway


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## Orang Utan (Sep 22, 2017)

Spymaster said:


> To talk to the driver.


fuck that - that's another good reason for getting the bus, you can listen to tunes while you're getting to the destination. would be rude in a cab.


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## bemused (Sep 22, 2017)

killer b said:


> TfL don't run the black cabs. They're the licensing authority.



I've never heard a cabbie say a nice thing about TfL - until now at least.


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## maomao (Sep 22, 2017)

Borp said:


> One thing I never see mentioned about uber is the app doesn't stop drivers from working any amount of hours. A driver can work 24 hours straight if they want. The app doesn't stop them. I've had a chat with a few drivers about this and they've confirmed it. One of them said he used to drive incredibly long hours but after a crash he's stopped it.
> That doesn't seem right to me.



There's no rules in the whole industry. No tachos on minicabs. At least Uber drivers can go home when they like and don't have some demented stressed controller urging them to keep working when they want to go home.


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## quimcunx (Sep 22, 2017)

Teaboy said:


> Fair enough.  I guess they think it might force them to up it's game?



This has been revised now to they're split between those drivers for whom it's their main job and those who fit it in round other stuff. The former don't like uber, the latter do like uber, apparently.


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## Orang Utan (Sep 22, 2017)

Reiabuzz said:


> I don’t get your point


they're not just in charge of cabs, so if you don't want to be ripped off and you're able bodied enough to get the bus or luggage free, then that's an option


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## bemused (Sep 22, 2017)

Lambert Simnel said:


> Customers and drivers happy but the corporation isn't fluffy so everyone rejoices



I'm not rejoicing, I just find it interesting. I don't think Uber are leaving London - I think they'll win the appeal or TfL will find a face-saving way to grant the license. It's a negotiation.


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## maomao (Sep 22, 2017)

flypanam said:


> Hailo?


No. They never quite did it. Already been eaten by one of the other cab firms haven't they? A new firm.


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## skyscraper101 (Sep 22, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> are you 12?
> it would feel a bit weird in a taxi anyway



What's the problem with someone wanting to sit up front in a car? I do it all the time.

Anyway, because of this dumb rule, a black cab will only take 5 passangers when it can clearly take 6 if they just stopped being dicks and preventing people riding up front.


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## Reiabuzz (Sep 22, 2017)

killer b said:


> TfL don't run the black cabs. They're the licensing authority.



I used to work for TfL and by extension the PCO from time to time. I can assure you they run the black cabs. If they can’t keep up with technology then that’s their problem. I’d like to have the choice. Have you ever felt unsafe in an Uber?


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## DotCommunist (Sep 22, 2017)

can those expressing concern for the drivers point me to thier previous statements regarding those workers pay, conditions and lack of rights? I mean I wouldn't want to think its crocodile tears to cover how annoyed you are that a gig economy staple is temporarily set back.


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## cantsin (Sep 22, 2017)

Teaboy said:


> I predict that the matter will be resolved before the end of the month,.



and is no doubt subject to appeal, so nothing will change until appeal


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## Reiabuzz (Sep 22, 2017)

maomao said:


> No. They never quite did it. Already been eaten by one of the other cab firms haven't they? A new firm.



Yep, the dudes behind it took the money and ran.


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## Lambert Simnel (Sep 22, 2017)

Give me Uber over a self-employed black cabbie any day. The driver is far less likely to be some sort of cunt.


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## UrbaneFox (Sep 22, 2017)

maomao said:


> At least Uber drivers can go home when they like and don't have some demented stressed controller urging them to keep working when they want to go home.


Au contraire, see #67.


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## ffsear (Sep 22, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> they're not just in charge of cabs, so if you don't want to be ripped off and you're able bodied enough to get the bus or luggage free, then that's an option


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## cupid_stunt (Sep 22, 2017)

Reiabuzz said:


> Erm, can nobody else see the blatant conflict of interest here from TfL? Why isn’t an independent body in charge of these decisions? These guys run the black cabs.
> 
> This safety bullshit is just that. We all knows it’s about a cartel protecting their own and getting away with ripping off the rest of us. Fucking absurd.



As others have pointed out TfL doesn't run black cabs, just licence them. TfL are an independent body in charge of licensing public transport.

If Uber's licence had been renewed for 5-years the fee was going up from around £3k to around £3m, so TfL has taken a big hit on this, in revenue terms.


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## YouSir (Sep 22, 2017)

I don't really get the comparison between Uber and black cabs, were they really in competition all that much? Of the few people I know who use Uber none of them ever got black cabs, couldn't afford them plus even these days you only see the odd one down SE.


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## Crispy (Sep 22, 2017)

The last thing Uber wants is drivers anyway. They're running a massive loss, in the hope that self-driving cars become a reality before the money runs out, and then boom! Instant profitability and no more pesky employment law to ignore.


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## maomao (Sep 22, 2017)

UrbaneFox said:


> Uber drivers can't stop working when they feel like it. If a customer in London wants to go to Aberdeen airport they have to take the job or never work for Uber again. Good riddance. The fares would have gone up massively when black cabs had been forced out of business.



Not true. They probably have a direction set in the first place so wouldn't be given such a big job unless they were up for it. If they were and they didn't want it they could force cancel which only counts against them if they do regularly. 15 years in the industry the longest passenger job I've seen was North Yorks and 90% of drivers would bite my arm of for that even near the end of shift.


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## UrbaneFox (Sep 22, 2017)

Ah


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## Spymaster (Sep 22, 2017)

YouSir said:


> I don't really get the comparison between Uber and black cabs, were they really in competition all that much?


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 22, 2017)

If it stops people from saying that they'll 'get an uber' instead of a cab, I'm all for it. Fucking tossrags with their buckets of coffee and their sodding ubers, playing the I'm urbane and alive game, fuck the lot of 'em.


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## Teaboy (Sep 22, 2017)

Spymaster said:


> I don't care much one way or the other, although losing Uber Eats will be a bit of a ball ache because they're the only outfit who deliver McDonalds round our way.



Hmmm, this puts a different angle on things.  Maybe give Sadiq a call and explain your predicament.  He might change his mind.


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## Orang Utan (Sep 22, 2017)

ffsear said:


>


I just feel strongly that more people should use the bus, to ensure the service continues. Bus services in London are great. You don't know how lucky you are to have a decent bus service.


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 22, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> I just feel strongly that more people should use the bus, to ensure the service continues. Bus services in London are great. You don't know how lucky you are to have a decent bus service.



concessions for those on the rock/old  well, decent concessions. 
Round here they'll charge you kids fare for the dog, tightwads


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 22, 2017)

My mate who's a cabbie will be chuffed


----------



## bimble (Sep 22, 2017)

Spymaster said:


>


i was in a black cab couple of weeks ago (please do not shout at me this is not my usual way of getting around town). Asked the driver how's business, expecting him to say things were a bit shit and instead he said never been better, how he thinks his is the best job in the world, he was playing golf that morning had a leisurely lunch etc. 
He said that uber was a bit of a wobble when it was new but not an issue anymore far as he can tell, he said people have started using black cabs again at the same levels they were before the novelty of uber appeared . That's just one bloke's take on it though obvs.


----------



## Orang Utan (Sep 22, 2017)

DotCommunist said:


> concessions for those on the rock/old  well, decent concessions.
> Round here they'll charge you kids fare for the dog, tightwads


I wasn't aware there were concessions for those on the dole. If there are, I have wasted a lot of money.


----------



## Reiabuzz (Sep 22, 2017)

cupid_stunt said:


> As others have pointed out TfL doesn't run black cabs, just licence them. TfL are an independent body in charge of licensing public transport.
> 
> If Uber's licence had been renewed for 5-years the fee was going up from around £3k to around £3m, so TfL has taken a big hit on this, in revenue terms.



The naïveté. Go and sit in the highly subsided TfL cafe at their head office on Victoria st for lunch. It’s dominated by black cab drivers.


----------



## gawkrodger (Sep 22, 2017)

interesting statement from the IWGB



> Our reaction to TfL's decision today to revoke #Uber's license:
> 
> James Farrar, co-claimant in landmark employment tribunal decision against Uber and chair of the Independent Workers' Union of Great Britain's (IWGB) United Private Hire Drivers (UPHD) branch said:
> 
> "This is a devastating blow for 30,000 Londoners who now face losing their job and being saddled with unmanageable vehicle related debt.To strip Uber of it's license after five years of laissez faire regulation is a testament to a systemic failure at TfL. Rather than banish Uber, TfL should have strengthened its regulatory oversight, curbed runaway licensing and protected the worker rights of drivers. The Mayor must call for an urgent independent review of TfL to identify the causes of failure and prevent something like this from ever happening again."


----------



## Borp (Sep 22, 2017)

Spymaster said:


> So what? Is there an app which prevents black cab and minicab drivers from working long hours?
> 
> Is there something special about Uber drivers that they can't be trusted just like anyone else not to overwork?



Fair enough if it's industry wide. Just doesn't seem particularly safe.


----------



## maomao (Sep 22, 2017)

YouSir said:


> I don't really get the comparison between Uber and black cabs, were they really in competition all that much? Of the few people I know who use Uber none of them ever got black cabs, couldn't afford them plus even these days you only see the odd one down SE.


They are absolutely in competition, back cabs still get bookings and have busy ranks at stations etc but their random street trade has pretty much collapsed. Why stick your arm out in the road and wait a couple of minutes when you could finish your coffee and then walk to a waiting car? They've also totally slaughtered the native private hire industry (which had been nearly completely beaten into submission by Addison Lee anyway).


----------



## editor (Sep 22, 2017)

killer b said:


> Haven't drivers been sacked for slagging off the company to fares?


I've no idea: I'm only posting up my own experiences.


----------



## Crispy (Sep 22, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> I wasn't aware there were concessions for those on the dole. If there are, I have wasted a lot of money.


50% off!

Jobcentre Plus Travel Discount


----------



## ffsear (Sep 22, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> I just feel strongly that more people should use the bus, to ensure the service continues. Bus services in London are great. You don't know how lucky you are to have a decent bus service.



Yea, i'm just kidding.  I always use busses where ever possible and can't complain about them.  But uber is very convenient at times.  Especially if you heading to parts of town you don't know too well.  Also if my girlfriend is on a night out, i'd much rather she gets an  uber home.  I've lost count of the  amount of times she's fallen asleep on trains and woken up in Brighton.


----------



## Orang Utan (Sep 22, 2017)

Crispy said:


> 50% off!
> 
> Jobcentre Plus Travel Discount


 shit


----------



## editor (Sep 22, 2017)

UrbaneFox said:


> Uber drivers can't stop working when they feel like it. If a customer in London wants to go to Aberdeen airport they have to take the job or never work for Uber again. Good riddance. The fares would have gone up massively when black cabs had been forced out of business.


Every driver has told me the opposite. If they feel like working for just 20 mins, they can.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Sep 22, 2017)

Reiabuzz said:


> The naïveté. Go and sit in the highly subsided TfL cafe at their head office on Victoria st for lunch. It’s dominated by black cab drivers.



Please explain how this equals TfL 'running the black cabs', you've lost me here.


----------



## Orang Utan (Sep 22, 2017)

ffsear said:


> Yea, i'm just kidding.  I always use busses where ever possible and can't complain about them.  But uber is very convenient at times.  Especially if you heading to parts of town you don't know too well.  Also if my girlfriend is on a night out, i'd much rather she gets an  uber home.  I've lost count of the  amount of times she's fallen asleep on trains and woken up in Brighton.


a friend of mine fell asleep in an Uber and woke up with a head injury.
He thought the driver assaulted him trying to wake him, but I reckon he just banged his head trying to get out - he's very tall.
But the driver apparently couldn't wake him and only knew the area he was going to, so drove around it for ages, trying to rouse my mate several times. 
The map with the route they email you afterwards shows the cab going round and round in circles!


----------



## Dr. Furface (Sep 22, 2017)

editor said:


> Yet every time I've chatted to an Uber driver - expecting them to be full of complaints - every one of them has declared themselves happy with the service, saying that the trade off in not-so-great wages was worth it for the freedom to start and stop whenever they felt like it.


I know a guy who used to drive for Addison Lee who left them to drive an Uber and that's pretty much his view too, he's much happier.


----------



## Spymaster (Sep 22, 2017)

bimble said:


> i was in a black cab couple of weeks ago (please do not shout at me this is not my usual way of getting around town). Asked the driver how's business, expecting him to say things were a bit shit and instead he said never been better, how he thinks his is the best job in the world, he was playing golf that morning had a leisurely lunch etc.
> He said that uber was a bit of a wobble when it was new but not an issue anymore far as he can tell, he said people have started using black cabs again at the same levels they were before the novelty of uber appeared . That's just one bloke's take on it though obvs.


Fair enough. I used to be a reasonably regular user of black cabs and can honestly say that I've only taken a handful of them since Uber came on the scene. For me the best thing about Uber hasn't been the cost, but the convenience of knowing exactly how long I'll be waiting and how much the journey will cost in advance. And of course, not having to have cash on me. Black cabs have lost my business and pretty much everyone else's that I know, and we're not unique.


----------



## maomao (Sep 22, 2017)

editor said:


> Every driver has told me the opposite, If they feel like working for 20 mins, they can.


Last Uber driver I got worked for a few companies. He'd done an aiport transfer to EC1 for about 50 quid for one company, then set the Uber app for Romford (he lives in Chadwell Heath) and done another 40 quid on the way home. In the old days companies would sanction drivers heavily for refusing a job in the wrong direction at close of play. AL and Uber changed that.


----------



## phillm (Sep 22, 2017)

editor said:


> Yet every time I've chatted to an Uber driver - expecting them to be full of complaints - every one of them has declared themselves happy with the service, saying that the trade off in not-so-great wages was worth it for the freedom to start and stop whenever they felt like it.
> 
> And double-triple fuck Tory supporting scumbags Addison Lee. I'd rather walk.
> 
> Subscribe to read



Same here and they like the fact it is a level playing field rather than the 'guvnor' in the cab office creaming off the best fares for his croneys. Fuck the black cabs - I've had so much shit off them over the years with not going south - Uber will win in the end I'm sure.


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 22, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> I just feel strongly that more people should use the bus, to ensure the service continues. Bus services in London are great. You don't know how lucky you are to have a decent bus service.



I feel strongly that buses in London cause a lot of problems not least of which being massive pollution they spew into the air we breath, thus helping to contribute to the 20,000 premature deaths each year from poor air quality.

I also can't think of another way to move the amount of people they do for the low cost.  Bloody stupid wankers who got rid of all the trams.


----------



## Dr. Furface (Sep 22, 2017)

Spymaster said:


> Fair enough. I used to be a reasonably regular user of black cabs and can honestly say that I've only taken a handful of them since Uber came on the scene. For me the best thing about Uber hasn't been the cost, but the convenience of *knowing exactly how long I'll be waiting and how much the journey will cost in advance*. Black cabs have lost my business and pretty much everyone else's that I know, and we're not unique.


There's nothing much worse than sitting in a black cab in traffic and watching the cost rising and nothing you can do about it (well there are worse things, but you know what I mean!)


----------



## Orang Utan (Sep 22, 2017)

Teaboy said:


> I feel strongly that buses in London cause a lot of problems not least of which being massive pollution they spew into the air we breath, thus helping to contribute to the 20,000 premature deaths each year from poor air quality.
> 
> I also can't think of another way to move the amount of people they do for the low cost.  Bloody stupid wankers who got rid of all the trams.


does the amount of people they shift compensate for the fumes they spill out, compared to cars?


----------



## The Octagon (Sep 22, 2017)

Use them occasionally out in Surrey as the public transport is slowly getting shittier and my gf uses them a lot to get to the hospital (they've cancelled the only useful bus route to the hospital, meaning a journey that used to take 20ish minutes would now take well over an hour for her, as she literally can't drive or bike it).

Most of the drivers I've spoken to come from miles away (Essex) to work the local area, most were more than happy with the flexibility / pay, but perhaps they don't want to risk saying anything that could be fed back via the rating tool?

On the other hand I've been in a few where the drivers have talked / bragged about working looong hours and nearly falling asleep at the wheel (that was comforting while I was still their passenger), so if this forces safer / fairer policies by Uber it won't be a bad thing.


----------



## Spymaster (Sep 22, 2017)

maomao said:


> Last Uber driver I got worked for a few companies. He'd done an aiport transfer to EC1 for about 50 quid for one company, then set the Uber app for Romford (he lives in Chadwell Heath) and done another 40 quid on the way home. In the old days companies would sanction drivers heavily for refusing a job in the wrong direction at close of play. AL and Uber changed that.


How much do Uber drivers make out of the fares?


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 22, 2017)

Spymaster said:


> Fair enough. I used to be a reasonably regular user of black cabs and can honestly say that I've only taken a handful of them since Uber came on the scene. For me the best thing about Uber hasn't been the cost, but the convenience of knowing exactly how long I'll be waiting and how much the journey will cost in advance. And of course, not having to have cash on me. Black cabs have lost my business and pretty much everyone else's that I know, and we're not unique.



I dunno, I still take the odd black cab for the sake of nostalgia.  It gives me a warm feeling being driven the slowest route possible by a racist West Ham fan.


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 22, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> does the amount of people they shift compensate for the fumes they spill out, compared to cars?



Of course, but there are comparatively few private cars on the road in Central London.  Its overwhelmingly buses, cabs and Uber.


----------



## maomao (Sep 22, 2017)

Spymaster said:


> How much do Uber drivers make out of the fares?


Pretty sure it's currently 75%. It was 90% when they started. 75% is way more than any other firm offers on account work.


----------



## Crispy (Sep 22, 2017)

Teaboy said:


> I feel strongly that buses in London cause a lot of problems not least of which being massive pollution they spew into the air we breath, thus helping to contribute to the 20,000 premature deaths each year from poor air quality.
> 
> I also can't think of another way to move the amount of people they do for the low cost.  Bloody stupid wankers who got rid of all the trams.


They've started introducing all-electric buses on some routes, but there's only a commitment to have 300 by 2020, out of a fleet of ~10,000.


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 22, 2017)

DotCommunist said:


> can those expressing concern for the drivers point me to thier previous statements regarding those workers pay, conditions and lack of rights? I mean I wouldn't want to think its crocodile tears to cover how annoyed you are that a gig economy staple is temporarily set back.



Uber: Crap/Not-Crap?

I've been pretty anti-uber from the get go.  Doesn't mean I don't feel bad for someone who may be about to lose their livelihood.


----------



## Orang Utan (Sep 22, 2017)

Teaboy said:


> Of course, but there are comparatively few private cars on the road in Central London.  Its overwhelmingly buses, cabs and Uber.


this is why more people should consider the bus instead of Uber, even if they can afford it (though Uber is very expensive compared to buses - I would continue to use buses even if I had money as I couldn't justify an £8 fare compared to a bus fare)


----------



## bemused (Sep 22, 2017)

cupid_stunt said:


> Please explain how this equals TfL 'running the black cabs', you've lost me here.



Mind control drugs in the lasagne.


----------



## maomao (Sep 22, 2017)

Teaboy said:


> Uber: Crap/Not-Crap?
> 
> I've been pretty anti-uber from the get go.  Doesn't mean I don't feel bad for someone who may be about to lose their livelihood.



It shouldn't have been a problem. The other operators would happily take back the drivers and the work. However the new operators license fee structure means the cost of an opeartors license will increase from about 4 grand a year to over 30 thousand a year once the firm has over a hundred drivers on their books means firms will be reluctant to flood their circuits with drivers straight away.


----------



## maomao (Sep 22, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> this is why more people should consider the bus instead of Uber, even if they can afford it (though Uber is very expensive compared to buses - I would continue to use buses even if I had money as I couldn't justify an £8 fare compared to a bus fare)


I would never get a cab to work on a Sunday morning. I'd rather take the bus. However there are situations where people need a quick car. Yesterday afternoon the trains went silly and my wife's one didn't stop at our stop. If I hadn't got her a car she would have been over half an hour late picking up our daughter from nursery.


----------



## binka (Sep 22, 2017)

I use Uber in Manchester all the time. I am aware they are a shit company however I would imagine you'd struggle to find any private hire firm not run by dodgy unpleasant cunts.

Every driver I've asked has said they like working for Uber, many private hire drivers prefer it - they feel more in control, less hassle especially late at night and having to deal with cash, not having to pay a flat fee like they would to a private hire firm.

I very rarely used private hire or black cabs before Uber so they haven't lost any business for me. The last time I tried to get a black can he said I wasn't going far enough for it to be worth his while. 

People have said use public transport. Well buses in Manchester are a right rip off - if two of us are going into town it's cheaper to get Uber there and back (about £4 each way) than get two returns on the bus(£4.30 each for a day rider) Fuck Stagecoach.


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 22, 2017)

binka said:


> I use Uber in Manchester all the time. I am aware they are a shit company however I would imagine you'd struggle to find any private hire firm not run by dodgy unpleasant cunts.
> 
> Every driver I've asked has said they like working for Uber, many private hire drivers prefer it - they feel more in control, less hassle especially late at night and having to deal with cash, not having to pay a flat fee like they would to a private hire firm.
> 
> ...



Yeah I hear this a lot about buses outside of the capital. Basically they just appear to be a deregulated capitalists wet dream.

Despite Boris Johnson relentlessly raising the price they are still pretty decent value in London, especially if you're going to be on it a long time.


----------



## Dogsauce (Sep 22, 2017)

Teaboy said:


> As funny as it is though it must be a real worry for the drivers.  If you just operate as an Uber driver where will you get your fares from if the tap is turned off?



I'm sure Uber will give their drivers a generous severance payment. That'll definitively happen.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Sep 22, 2017)

maomao said:


> It shouldn't have been a problem. The other operators would happily take back the drivers and the work. However the new operators license fee structure means the cost of an opeartors license will increase from about 4 grand a year to over 30 thousand a year once the firm has over a hundred drivers on their books means firms will be reluctant to flood their circuits with drivers straight away.



The license fee structure seems very unfair to me, 100 cars £4,403pa, 101 -1000 cars £33,304pa, 1001 cars £33,304 plus just £14 per car over 1000. Surely a flat fee per car would be more logical? 

Proposed changes to private hire operator licence fees


----------



## Orang Utan (Sep 22, 2017)

Teaboy said:


> Yeah I hear this a lot about buses outside of the capital. Basically they just appear to be a deregulated capitalists wet dream.
> 
> Despite Boris Johnson relentlessly raising the price they are still pretty decent value in London, especially if you're going to be on it a long time.


We have £3 fares in Leeds and not much coverage of many residential areas. Several companies operating too.


----------



## Sue (Sep 22, 2017)

I've used Uber once when i was with a friend who's got an account. 

I very, very rarely take taxis -- i take the bus or walk. Surprised at the number of people on here who use Ubers/taxis.


----------



## Orang Utan (Sep 22, 2017)

Sue said:


> I've used Uber once when i was with a friend who's got an account.
> 
> I very, very rarely take taxis -- i take the bus or walk. Surprised at the number of people on here who use Ubers/taxis.


I see it as an extravagance (and would even if I was as wealthy as other Urbs)


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Sep 22, 2017)

What a ridiculous decision. London just got even worse


----------



## maomao (Sep 22, 2017)

cupid_stunt said:


> The license fee structure seems very unfair to me, 100 cars £4,403pa, 101 -1000 cars £33,304pa, 1001 cars £33,304 plus just £14 per car over 1000. Surely a flat fee per car would be more logical?
> 
> Proposed changes to private hire operator licence fees



It will hit certain firms (like the one I work for) very hard as we have adapted to the post-Uber world by supplementing our shrinking full-time fleet with a long list of owner drivers all of whom we have to keep records on, do background checks etc., just like any other driver. There's at least a dozen such companies in London that are fifty-sixty car companies with three or four hundred drivers on their books. 90% of those drivers are Uber Exec drivers as well.


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 22, 2017)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> What a ridiculous decision. London just got even worse



Why a bad decision?

Did you read the stuff about Greyball?  Or is this just an inconvenience to you?


----------



## bemused (Sep 22, 2017)

maomao said:


> I would never get a cab to work on a Sunday morning. I'd rather take the bus. However there are situations where people need a quick car. Yesterday afternoon the trains went silly and my wife's one didn't stop at our stop. If I hadn't got her a car she would have been over half an hour late picking up our daughter from nursery.



When I travel for work I always get an Uber to the train station so I don't need to lug my suitcase on the bus.


----------



## maomao (Sep 22, 2017)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> What a ridiculous decision. London just got even worse



It's not a ridiculous decision at all. They've repeatedly and flagrantly flouted licensing regulations (which have been particularly strict in London since 2003). What kind of licensing authority would ignore that?


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 22, 2017)

Sue said:


> I've used Uber once when i was with a friend who's got an account.
> 
> I very, very rarely take taxis -- i take the bus or walk. Surprised at the number of people on here who use Ubers/taxis.



Yeah I've only ever taken one uber in my life, I prefer to walk or get the train / tube.  The one uber I took did save me a bit though and I was hammered and staggering the streets of some suburban hole in the early hours.  It would have been a very very long walk had it not been for uber.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Sep 22, 2017)

Teaboy said:


> Why a bad decision?
> 
> Did you read the stuff about Greyball?  Or is this just an inconvenience to you?


It won't inconvenience me at all, as the vast majority of my travel round London is in Black cabs. But if the Uber drivers are anything like the ones up here in Birmingham they all vastly prefer driving for them than they do traditional minicab firms - the flexability and safety being the major points they all say when asked about it.


----------



## phillm (Sep 22, 2017)

I'd  arguably say that Amazon are bigger cunts conditions wise than Uber - when it comes to taxation , working conditions and monopolistic practices.


----------



## Orang Utan (Sep 22, 2017)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> It won't inconvenience me at all, as the vast majority of my travel round London is in Black cabs. But if the Uber drivers are anything like the ones up here in Birmingham they all vastly prefer driving for them than they do traditional minicab firms - the flexability and safety being the major points they all say when asked about it.


Workers get used to being exploited so they don't complain about one marginally less exploitative employer


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 22, 2017)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> It won't inconvenience me at all, as the vast majority of my travel round London is in Black cabs. But if the Uber drivers are anything like the ones up here in Birmingham they all vastly prefer driving for them than they do traditional minicab firms - the flexability and safety being the major points they all say when asked about it.



And presumably all the licensing stuff and lack of background checks on drivers is irrelevant?

I don't really mind either way but we spend a lot of time on this site complaining how shyster companies just trample over laws, tax laws etc, yet here we have an authority doing what they are supposed to do and actually standing up to a mega corporate beast yet its a "ridiculous decision". Bit odd unless I've missed something.


----------



## Orang Utan (Sep 22, 2017)

Urban's changed.


----------



## Spymaster (Sep 22, 2017)

DotCommunist said:


> can those expressing concern for the drivers point me to thier previous statements regarding those workers pay, conditions and lack of rights?


Depends whether or not you swallow the anti-Uber propaganda that gets punted around, particularly in light of the fact that we have a private hire professional on this very thread, basically saying that Uber are pretty much standard (or better) for the industry as a whole. You also don't have to be a workers rights crusader to sympathise with 40,000 drivers potentially looking for new jobs, many of whom will be saddled with expensive vehicle finance contracts.


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 22, 2017)

Spymaster said:


> Depends whether or not you swallow the anti-Uber propaganda that gets punted around


so thats one yes from teaboy and one no from spymaster


----------



## bemused (Sep 22, 2017)

Teaboy said:


> And presumably all the licensing stuff and lack of background checks on drivers is irrelevant?
> 
> I don't really mind either way but we spend a lot of time on this site complaining how shyster companies just trample over laws, tax laws etc, yet here we have an authority doing what they are supposed to do and actually standing up to a mega corporate beast yet its a "ridiculous decision". Bit odd unless I've missed something.



TfL licensed Uber before, they've not identified specific failings between the original license and the renewal; the only thing that has changed is the leadership at City Hall. This is a negotiation plain and simple.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Sep 22, 2017)

Teaboy said:


> And presumably all the licensing stuff and lack of background checks on drivers is irrelevant?


I guess this is one of those "London is different" things, because here in Birmingham at least an Uber driver has to have exactly the same license/checks as any other minicab driver.

If that's not the case in London, why? Simply put that in place and problem solved.


----------



## maomao (Sep 22, 2017)

bemused said:


> TfL licensed Uber before, they've not identified specific failings between the original license and the renewal; the only thing that has changed is the leadership at City Hall. This is a negotiation plain and simple.


Exactly. If I was in charge of Uber I would be backing the fuck down on all of the points TFL have highlighted. Drop Greyball in London and kick some arses round the fleet dept to ensure they are compliant with the first three points. This isn't about worker rights and London is probably one of their few straight up profitable markets.


----------



## Orang Utan (Sep 22, 2017)

#NATIONALISEUBER


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 22, 2017)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> I guess this is one of those "London is different" things, because here in Birmingham at least an Uber driver has to have exactly the same license/checks as any other minicab driver.
> 
> If that's not the case in London, why? Simply put that in place and problem solved.



It is the case, but when someone doesn't follow that rule..................


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 22, 2017)

bemused said:


> TfL licensed Uber before, they've not identified specific failings between the original license and the renewal; the only thing that has changed is the leadership at City Hall. This is a negotiation plain and simple.



Yeah as I said at the start I reckon this is all about Greyball.  I think you're right though, it's hard to see how this would have happened with Johnson running the show.


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 22, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> #NATIONALISEUBER



Get Corbyn on the phone.  I think its a vote winner.


----------



## 8den (Sep 22, 2017)

Londoners complaining about lose of Uber. Rest of country absolutely fails to sympathise.


----------



## maomao (Sep 22, 2017)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> I guess this is one of those "London is different" things, because here in Birmingham at least an Uber driver has to have exactly the same license/checks as any other minicab driver.
> 
> If that's not the case in London, why? Simply put that in place and problem solved.



They were warned and given a four month temporary license to give them time to get their shit together and comply. Whether in terms of resources or incompetence their London fleet dept is not up to the task and has failed to do so. What else could TFL do? It's Uber's failing not TFL singling them out. I've sat through dozens of PCO inspections, the rules are strict but very clear.


----------



## maomao (Sep 22, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> #NATIONALISEUBER


A network of co-ops like the ones that exist in many parts of the country (I know the Edinburgh ones are very successful) would be very good. If I win Euromillions...


----------



## Crispy (Sep 22, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> #NATIONALISEUBER


I am 100% behind your policy.


----------



## IC3D (Sep 22, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> Workers get used to being exploited so they don't complain about one marginally less exploitative employer


The couple of Über drivers in London I asked said it was a good deal. Who are you to infantilise them, you don't even sit in the front to ask. Which to me is weirdly childlike.


----------



## Orang Utan (Sep 22, 2017)

IC3D said:


> The couple of Über drivers in London I asked said it was a good deal. Who are you to infantilise them, you don't even sit in the front to ask. Which to me is weirdly childlike.


false consciousness


----------



## IC3D (Sep 22, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> false consciousness


Big words from the booster seat.


----------



## maomao (Sep 22, 2017)

IC3D said:


> The couple of Über drivers in London I asked said it was a good deal. Who are you to infantilise them, you don't even sit in the front to ask. Which to me is weirdly childlike.


There is no umlaut on the U in the company name.

It is and it isn't a good deal. 3 years ago they had the best deal in town (which is how they got all the drivers) but they've dropped rates and increased commission considerably since then.


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 22, 2017)

Ah. Beef-o-clock.


----------



## IC3D (Sep 22, 2017)

I'm aware of that maomao and if this situation the company is in is due to incompetence and they've flooded the market Uber is crap. But no need to gloat over the workforce who potentially wind up unemployed with mouths to feed and rent to pay.


----------



## The Fornicator (Sep 22, 2017)

Spymaster said:


> Depends whether or not you swallow the anti-Uber propaganda that gets punted around, particularly in light of the fact that we have a private hire professional on this very thread, basically saying that Uber are pretty much standard (or better) for the industry as a whole. You also don't have to be a workers rights crusader to sympathise with 40,000 drivers potentially looking for new jobs, many of whom will be saddled with expensive vehicle finance contracts.


Well, the market is the market - it won't suddenly shrink, and there are thousands of local minicab offices, as well as apps that compare different minicab companies.

I wonder if the timing - the first licence renewal after the 24-hour tube started - is interesting (of course not all the tube is open).

Fwi, I think licencing and the wider law (employment, tax, date, etc) is still trying to catch up with these silicon valley new Victorians, hell bent as they are to exploit the space between them and local markets before their little dotcom bubble bursts.

After Johnson turned a blind eye for 4 years, Mayor Khan is applying the brakes is all. It's not over - there are $10 billions in the game now and, in case of any doubt, it is about the car leasing more than Uber itself - Goldman Sachs aren't funding Uber for cab fares.

This is new unsecured mortgage game - wrap up the vehicle debt in other securities and ride the wave.


----------



## agricola (Sep 22, 2017)

Uber's PR firms are certainly earning their money today - I've seen Sky, BBC and CNN all repeating the claim that 3.5 million Londoners use Uber (which is probably based on the Uber press release where it actually said that 3.5 million people had downloaded its app, which may itself be that the app was downloaded 3.5 million times).


----------



## The Fornicator (Sep 22, 2017)

Isn't that more downloads than tax paid in the UK?


----------



## lefteri (Sep 22, 2017)

If they go then we're back to shit overpriced unlicensed cabs outside nightclubs - uber are perfect for night time travel back from clubs between clubs or to after parties etc - that's the only time I use them


----------



## maomao (Sep 22, 2017)

The Fornicator said:


> in case of any doubt, it is about the car leasing more than Uber itself - Goldman Sachs aren't funding Uber for cab fares



The leasing side of it is huge but in turnover terms a back of a fag packet calculation suggests in London it's equivalent to about 15-20% of Uber's turnover and the turnover from leasing is lower than Uber's cut of the fare money. And that would be if every Uber driver leased, which they don't.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Sep 22, 2017)

Dr. Furface said:


> I know a guy who used to drive for Addison Lee who left them to drive an Uber and that's pretty much his view too, he's much happier.



LOL. Last time I mentioned that the drivers seemed happy with the Uber model on the Uber Crap/Not-Crap thread, I got flamed for suggesting that they weren't under duress to refrain from complaining about it.


redsquirrel said:


> Amazing! I can't imagine why someone who works for an organisation that is know to be highly hostile to any criticism, might refrain from slagging the company off.





littlebabyjesus said:


> It's not a candid chat. It's potentially part of the service, for which you are being held to account in a way that will affect your future earnings.





littlebabyjesus said:


> If you don't think many workers are going to be cautious about criticising their employer to a stranger then you must live in a different world to the rest of us. And when that organisation is renowned for it's hostility to criticism and strongly anti-union that goes double.





irf520 said:


> Why would they air their grievances with a random stranger who, for all they know, could be a 'mystery shopper' ? Seems like a good way to get the sack.


----------



## agricola (Sep 22, 2017)

agricola said:


> Uber's PR firms are certainly earning their money today - I've seen Sky, BBC and CNN all repeating the claim that 3.5 million Londoners use Uber (which is probably based on the Uber press release where it actually said that 3.5 million people had downloaded its app, which may itself be that the app was downloaded 3.5 million times).



About eight times more (the Guardian claim they only paid £411,000 in the tax year 2015-6).


----------



## Reiabuzz (Sep 22, 2017)

So, 40,000 people out of work if these fuckers get away with it. Which is highly unlikely once it's put in front of an independent body. No idea how anybody could support this decision.


----------



## The Fornicator (Sep 22, 2017)

maomao said:


> The leasing side of it is huge but in turnover terms a back of a fag packet calculation suggests in London it's equivalent to about 15-20% of Uber's turnover and the turnover from leasing is lower than Uber's cut of the fare money. And that would be if every Uber driver leased, which they don't.


Turnover - what has turnover to do with large, unsecured personal loans taken out by people efffectively on mim wage?

This is the subprime bubble reenacted.

Uber operates in over 200 cities.


----------



## Shechemite (Sep 22, 2017)

editor said:


> Uber is infinitely cheaper than fucking black cabs who I have nothing but contempt from the days when they'd ignore their own rules and refuse to drive me to Brixton.



My ex walks with sticks. More than once a driver has driven off after they've acknowledged us and she's struggled to get up to the car. The whole honest black cab stuff is bullshit


----------



## maomao (Sep 22, 2017)

The Fornicator said:


> Turnover - what has turnover to do with personal loans taken out by people efffectively on mim wage?
> 
> Uber operates in over 200 cities.


The sum of those loan payments is their turnover. But you're right I know nothing about finance.

Don't know the difference between hiring and leasing either. A lot of drivers are hiring rather than leasing cars though. And plenty own then outright.


----------



## EastEnder (Sep 22, 2017)

I've never used uber. I only mention that because it allows me to feel smug in light of the insufferably tedious people I've met in the past who, for some utterly inexplicable reason, have felt it necessary to inform me of what their "uber rating" was. I hope they are now sobbing into their mochachinos & contemplating where they went wrong in life.


----------



## Orang Utan (Sep 22, 2017)

what's an Uber rating?


----------



## agricola (Sep 22, 2017)

EastEnder said:


> I've never used uber. I only mention that because it allows me to feel smug in light of the insufferably tedious people I've met in the past who, for some utterly inexplicable reason, have felt it necessary to inform me of what their "uber rating" was. I hope they are now sobbing into their mochachinos & contemplating where they went wrong in life.



I think you'll find they are all being outraged on Twitter.  A line has been crossed!


----------



## The Fornicator (Sep 22, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> what's an Uber rating?


yawn: What's a discotheque? etc, etc.


----------



## Orang Utan (Sep 22, 2017)

The Fornicator said:


> yawn: What's a discotheque? etc, etc.


just asking


----------



## TruXta (Sep 22, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> what's an Uber rating?


Drivers rate passengers.


----------



## The Fornicator (Sep 22, 2017)

maomao said:


> The sum of those loan payments is their turnover. But you're right I know nothing about finance.
> 
> Don't know the difference between hiring and leasing either. A lot of drivers are hiring rather than leasing cars though. And plenty own then outright.


FFS. Separate Uber from leasing. Understand in order to lease, companies need to borrow. 

Some drivers rent. The economic model encourages unsecured leasing.


----------



## redsquirrel (Sep 22, 2017)

killer b said:


> Great stuff. Fuck 'em.


This.


skyscraper101 said:


> LOL. Last time I mentioned that the drivers seemed happy with the Uber model on the Uber Crap/Not-Crap thread, I got flamed for suggesting that they weren't under duress to refrain from complaining about it.


You didn't get flamed, you had it pointed out that anecdotes about feedback from individual employees isn't a very good way of determining how shit an employer is. But I guess you'd rather just go with that crap than the documented tax dodging, anti-unionism etc.


----------



## Orang Utan (Sep 22, 2017)

TruXta said:


> Drivers rate passengers.


weird. who gets to see it? there's not much you can rate for, is there? 'wasn't sick on the upholstery'


----------



## EastEnder (Sep 22, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> what's an Uber rating?


I did not enquire into the details. I assume it's some sort of rating, perhaps associated with uber. Probably a number, possibly with a decimal point somewhere.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Sep 22, 2017)

redsquirrel said:


> This.
> 
> You didn't get flamed, you had it pointed out that anecdotes about feedback from individual employees isn't a very good way of determining how shit an employer is. But I guess you'd rather just go with that crap than the documented tax dodging, anti-unionism etc.



All I said is they seemed happy with the arrangement, and I saw no hint that they were spinning a line out of fear for their jobs.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 22, 2017)

skyscraper101 said:


> All I said is they seemed happy with the arrangement, and I saw no hint that they were spinning a line out of fear for their jobs.



They don't have jobs to lose, they are all owners of small businesses...


----------



## Crispy (Sep 22, 2017)

Reiabuzz said:


> So, 40,000 people out of work if these fuckers get away with it. Which is highly unlikely once it's put in front of an independent body. No idea how anybody could support this decision.


They were on a 4-month license, to give them time to get their shit straight. Time ran out.


----------



## ffsear (Sep 22, 2017)

Sign the Petition


----------



## Reiabuzz (Sep 22, 2017)

Crispy said:


> They were on a 4-month license, to give them time to get their shit straight. Time ran out.



We'll see. I assume anyone in the judicial system with half a brain will see what's going on here. It's fairly blatant.


----------



## Borp (Sep 22, 2017)

ffsear said:


> Sign the Petition



A petition started by uber itself. Is that legit.


----------



## agricola (Sep 22, 2017)

ffsear said:


> Sign the Petition





> The 3.5 million Londoners who rely on Uber to get a safe, reliable and affordable ride around the best city in the world will be astounded by the decision to ban Uber from the capital.


----------



## phillm (Sep 22, 2017)

Prison Planet depressingly frames the argument as one of immigrant muslim rapist drivers v. white British black cabbies. It's glad to see the globalist battering ram get its comeuppance.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Sep 22, 2017)

Reiabuzz said:


> We'll see. I assume anyone in the judicial system with half a brain will see what's going on here. It's fairly blatant.



what is blatant ?


----------



## TruXta (Sep 22, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> weird. who gets to see it? there's not much you can rate for, is there? 'wasn't sick on the upholstery'


The drivers I guess? I don't use uber so I don't know much more than that.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Sep 22, 2017)

> The 3.5 million Londoners who rely on Uber to get *a safe, reliable and affordable ride around the best city in the world* will be astounded by the decision to ban Uber from the capital.


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 22, 2017)

reibuzz thinks its all shenanigans by the black cabbies who run TfL


----------



## ffsear (Sep 22, 2017)

not-bono-ever said:


> what is blatant ?



Black cab drivers praise for mayor of London over Uber decision


----------



## Guineveretoo (Sep 22, 2017)

UrbaneFox said:


> Uber drivers can't stop working when they feel like it. If a customer in London wants to go to Aberdeen airport they have to take the job or never work for Uber again. Good riddance. The fares would have gone up massively when black cabs had been forced out of business.


is that true, though? I have been chatting to Uber drivers, and they tell me that you can refuse any fare, and people often do once they see the destination.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Sep 22, 2017)

ffsear said:


> Black cab drivers praise for mayor of London over Uber decision



Well yes, but is there any backup for the existance of some kind of black cab interfering here ?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Sep 22, 2017)

not-bono-ever said:


> what is blatant ?



I wouldn't hold out for a straight answer on that one.

That poster claimed TfL 'runs the black cabs', rather than just licence them, his evidence for this is something to do with black cab drivers using the TfL cafe, fucking weird.


----------



## killer b (Sep 22, 2017)

Guido says this is evidence of Khan being in the pocket of the Taxi unions, so they're in good company calling shenanigans here.


----------



## Guineveretoo (Sep 22, 2017)

YouSir said:


> I don't really get the comparison between Uber and black cabs, were they really in competition all that much? Of the few people I know who use Uber none of them ever got black cabs, couldn't afford them plus even these days you only see the odd one down SE.


East Croydon station. 

There used to be queues for the black cabs, particularly at night time. People, including me, would pay for a black cab because of the convenience and (relative) safety of doing so. To be honest, it was one of the things that attracted me to my house - that East Croydon station is open all night and has black cabs outside it. 

These days, most people walk past the queuing black cabs to get to the pick up point where their uber car is.


----------



## Guineveretoo (Sep 22, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> I just feel strongly that more people should use the bus, to ensure the service continues. Bus services in London are great. You don't know how lucky you are to have a decent bus service.


Unfortunately, I don't have a decent bus service in my part of London, although I do catch the bus when I can. 

But your point is well made, as this is not true for most of London


----------



## Guineveretoo (Sep 22, 2017)

bimble said:


> i was in a black cab couple of weeks ago (please do not shout at me this is not my usual way of getting around town). Asked the driver how's business, expecting him to say things were a bit shit and instead he said never been better, how he thinks his is the best job in the world, he was playing golf that morning had a leisurely lunch etc.
> He said that uber was a bit of a wobble when it was new but not an issue anymore far as he can tell, he said people have started using black cabs again at the same levels they were before the novelty of uber appeared . That's just one bloke's take on it though obvs.


I guess in central London, people like to walk out and flag a cab, and are either rich or on expenses (or both) so happy with the cost.


----------



## UrbaneFox (Sep 22, 2017)

editor said:


> Every driver has told me the opposite. If they feel like working for just 20 mins, they can.



I was told this by a driver in Leeds. Pah.


----------



## agricola (Sep 22, 2017)

killer b said:


> Guido says this is evidence of Khan being in the pocket of the Taxi unions, so they're in good company calling shenanigans here.



Guido, whose extreme pro-Uber stance was no doubt entirely on ethical grounds.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Sep 22, 2017)

At the end of the day, it will all come out during the court appeal, but clearly there's some very serious concerns about how Uber operates in London, including how medical & criminal record reports are obtained, and more worrying the claims about them not reporting serious criminal offences.

The Met investigating a new claim of rape or sexual assault by a Uber driver on average every 11 days, is something that particularly stands out to me.


----------



## Reiabuzz (Sep 22, 2017)

“In the coming weeks Uber will no doubt throw all its legal and corporate lobbying might to overturn this decision. We would urge the mayor of London and Transport for London to stand firm and continue to stand up for the safety of Londoners and the *capital’s trusted cabbies.” *


----------



## tim (Sep 22, 2017)

EastEnder said:


> Yep, and you'll have to wait ages for one, then it'll be full of screaming kids & you'll end up sat next to old chap smelling of wee who asks you to be his friend.
> 
> Back to the good old days for you!



He is that old man. It just means increased olfactory misery for the rest of us, and at least the uber driver was paid for having to listen to him.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Sep 22, 2017)

Serious concerns raised by the police, invalid DBS checks & falsified medical certificates, any comments Reiabuzz? 



> Uber has repeatedly come under fire for its handling of allegations of sexual assault by its drivers against passengers.
> 
> Freedom of Information data obtained by _The Sun_ last year showed that the Metropolitan Police investigated 32 drivers for rape or sexual assault of a passenger between May 2015 and May 2016.
> 
> ...





> *DBS checks and medical records *
> This month, TfL informed Uber that background checks on thousands of its drivers were invalid. The drivers were given 28 days to reapply for the procedure, or risk losing their licence.
> 
> In a separate controversy over the vetting of its employees, _The Sun_ revealed Uber drivers were able to obtain falsified medical certificates which gave them the all-clear for service.



The scandal that brought Uber down


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 22, 2017)

Reiabuzz said:


> So, 40,000 people out of work if these fuckers get away with it. Which is highly unlikely once it's put in front of an independent body. No idea how anybody could support this decision.



Yeah, rules around safety are tiresome and get in the way of business. Just ask the residents of Grenfell.


----------



## Guineveretoo (Sep 22, 2017)

maomao said:


> The leasing side of it is huge but in turnover terms a back of a fag packet calculation suggests in London it's equivalent to about 15-20% of Uber's turnover and the turnover from leasing is lower than Uber's cut of the fare money. And that would be if every Uber driver leased, which they don't.


Unfortunately, the private hire firm nearest to me flouts the regulations in a frightening way, including cars which are not fit to be on the road, and drivers who are not licensed. 

Another private hire firm I used late at night (just before I caved in and got an Uber account) left two disabled women stranded at a railway station, despite us having booked a cab to meet the train. One of those women was injured, having fallen down the stairs trying to catch the train. The firm just kept telling us that the cab was "on its way" and that it would be "a few minutes". We were there for 45 minutes.

Found out later that there had been a stabbing very near where we were, that same evening. 

When I phoned up to complain, and asked to speak to the manager, he just kept telling me there was nothing he could do, because their system had told them that the cab was a few minutes away. 

That was the last time I used a local private hire company. After that, I swallowed my principles and tried Uber and have had no such problems with them since. 

Because of those principles, I always ask the driver what it is like working for Uber, and have always had positive feedback.


----------



## Guineveretoo (Sep 22, 2017)

Teaboy said:


> And presumably all the licensing stuff and lack of background checks on drivers is irrelevant?
> 
> I don't really mind either way but we spend a lot of time on this site complaining how shyster companies just trample over laws, tax laws etc, yet here we have an authority doing what they are supposed to do and actually standing up to a mega corporate beast yet its a "ridiculous decision". Bit odd unless I've missed something.


I would feel a lot happier about TfL if they were to cancel the licences of some of the private hire companies who blatantly breach the rules and regulations.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Sep 22, 2017)

Guineveretoo said:


> When I phoned up to complain, and asked to speak to the manager, he just kept telling me there was nothing he could do, because their system had told them that the cab was a few minutes away.



But, did you complain to TfL?



Guineveretoo said:


> I would feel a lot happier about TfL if they were to cancel the licences of some of the private hire companies who blatantly breach the rules and regulations.



They would need complaints to investigate.


----------



## redsquirrel (Sep 22, 2017)

killer b said:


> Guido says this is evidence of Khan being in the pocket of the Taxi unions, so they're in good company calling shenanigans here.


What else can you expect from LibDem filth.


----------



## agricola (Sep 22, 2017)

cupid_stunt said:


> At the end of the day, it will all come out during the court appeal, but clearly there's some very serious concerns about how Uber operates in London, including how medical & criminal record reports are obtained, and more worrying the claims about them not reporting serious criminal offences.
> 
> The Met investigating a new claim of rape or sexual assault by a Uber driver on average every 11 days, is something that particularly stands out to me.



TBH the worrying thing about this is what they don't mention - the fact that Uber's employment model has been found to be illegal and the fact that it pays very little tax.  A cynical mind would think that all the reasons given are things that could be "fixed" relatively quickly and with a minimum of fuss.


----------



## Guineveretoo (Sep 22, 2017)

cupid_stunt said:


> But, did you complain to TfL?
> 
> 
> 
> They would need complaints to investigate.


No, I didn't complain to TfL - both of us felt upset and frustrated that there was no-one to complain to.

If I am forced to go back to using the private hire firm who uses illegal drivers and cars not fit to be on the road, then I will complain to TfL, now that it has been suggested.


----------



## Guineveretoo (Sep 22, 2017)

agricola said:


> TBH the worrying thing about this is what they don't mention - the fact that Uber's employment model has been found to be illegal and the fact that it pays very little tax.  A cynical mind would think that all the reasons given are things that could be "fixed" relatively quickly and with a minimum of fuss.


I agree that this needs resolving, but not just for Uber. And it is not going to be fixed by shutting it down.


----------



## Maharani (Sep 22, 2017)

editor said:


> Uber is infinitely cheaper than fucking black cabs who I have nothing but contempt from the days when they'd ignore their own rules and refuse to drive me to Brixton.


And I keep hearing from my black and brown brothers and sisters black cabs don't pick us up. I never use them so wouldn't know. I hate black cabs.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Sep 22, 2017)

agricola said:


> TBH the worrying thing about this is what they don't mention - the fact that Uber's employment model has been found to be illegal and the fact that it pays very little tax.  A cynical mind would think that all the reasons given are things that could be "fixed" relatively quickly and with a minimum of fuss.



TBF, Uber is appealing the ruling over the employment model, so that's not settled yet. And, them pushing revenue via Holland for tax dodging purposes would appear to be legal, although clearly shouldn't be.


----------



## Maharani (Sep 22, 2017)

So does that mean we can't ride in Uber's from now?????


----------



## redsquirrel (Sep 22, 2017)

Guineveretoo said:


> I agree that this needs resolving, but not just for Uber. And it is not going to be fixed by shutting it down.


And what about it's anti-unionism? Is that not a good reason to shut it down? 

(Not that it actually _is _being shut down, unfortunately)


----------



## Maharani (Sep 22, 2017)

Obviously not. My app is active.


----------



## Maharani (Sep 22, 2017)

Will this mean other companies like uber will now get a look in?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Sep 22, 2017)

Maharani said:


> So does that mean we can't ride in Uber's from now?????



Their licence runs out on the 30th Sept., but they are appealing, and will be allowed to continue to operate whilst the appeal is being dealt with.


----------



## Guineveretoo (Sep 22, 2017)

Maharani said:


> And I keep hearing from my black and brown brothers and sisters black cabs don't pick us up. I never use them so wouldn't know. I hate black cabs.


The only time I have ever heard someone saying "I am not racist but..." before coming out with lots of racist shit, was in the back of a black cab!

I was even told, by a black cab driver, that a nice white woman like me probably shouldn't move to the house I am currently living in!!

So yeah, black cabs are shit for many reasons.


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 22, 2017)

It seems fairly obvious to me that tfl and the mayor would want uber.  London needs a mixed transport model and uber has also pretty much killed the illegal / unlicensed cab (just about anyway), and they were responsible for some appalling sexual assault stats.

Of course these is also the money, someone said up thread it would amount to around £3m which is equivalent to the grant that tfl gets from Central London to run the tube, so a decent amount of money.

Its just uber being such shifty fuckers that even with all this tfl have decided something has got to change. It shows how fucked-up uber have been.  All these people who are calling conspiracy and the like are just mad fuckers really.


----------



## maomao (Sep 22, 2017)

Guineveretoo said:


> Unfortunately, the private hire firm nearest to me flouts the regulations in a frightening way, including cars which are not fit to be on the road, and drivers who are not licensed.
> 
> Another private hire firm I used late at night (just before I caved in and got an Uber account) left two disabled women stranded at a railway station, despite us having booked a cab to meet the train. One of those women was injured, having fallen down the stairs trying to catch the train. The firm just kept telling us that the cab was "on its way" and that it would be "a few minutes". We were there for 45 minutes.
> 
> ...


Would love to know what company this is. Just for gossip value. You should really be reporting the use of unlicensed drivers yourself though.


----------



## Crispy (Sep 22, 2017)

Make taxis like the buses. Have fares and service quality mandated by TfL, who also offer the only permitted ride-hailing app. Then various cab companies can provide the actual fleets and drivers.


----------



## redsquirrel (Sep 22, 2017)

Crispy said:


> Make taxis like the buses. Have fares and service quality mandated by TfL, who also offer the only permitted ride-hailing app. Then various cab companies can provide the actual fleets and drivers.


Well I'd rather just nationalise the whole system, but this will do for starters.


----------



## Crispy (Sep 22, 2017)

redsquirrel said:


> Well I'd rather just nationalise the whole system, but this will do for starters.


Well of course, but this might just be palatable to our current masters


----------



## Maharani (Sep 22, 2017)

Guineveretoo said:


> The only time I have ever heard someone saying "I am not racist but..." before coming out with lots of racist shit, was in the back of a black cab!
> 
> I was even told, by a black cab driver, that a nice white woman like me probably shouldn't move to the house I am currently living in!!
> 
> So yeah, black cabs are shit for many reasons.


Ffs. My other half said they most certainly don't pick him up then I heard a few older West Indian folk on the radio calling in to say it. Now that's enough fucking reason to boycott fucking black cabs. I'm not saying all the drivers are racists but there seems to be a major problem here.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Sep 22, 2017)

Guineveretoo said:


> No, I didn't complain to TfL - both of us felt upset and frustrated that there was no-one to complain to.
> 
> If I am forced to go back to using the private hire firm who uses illegal drivers and cars not fit to be on the road, then I will complain to TfL, now that it has been suggested.



Good, because if complaints are not made to TfL, it's hard for them to investigate.

Although, in respect of cars not fit to be on the road, random checks are regularly carried out by licencing authorities, in conjunction with the police, right across the country. It's not unusual for 20-30% of cabs being ordered off the road after these stops, but TBF often for very minor things.


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 22, 2017)

Most of the black cabs round my way (SW London) are driven by black or asian descent guys anyway.  I think its more when you get towards Central London you get the cliched cockney racist.


----------



## Maharani (Sep 22, 2017)

Teaboy said:


> Most of the black cabs round my way (SW London) are driven by black or asian descent guys anyway.  I think its more when you get towards Central London you get the cliched cockney racist.


Cunts.


----------



## EastEnder (Sep 22, 2017)

Guineveretoo said:


> The only time I have ever heard someone saying "I am not racist but..." before coming out with lots of racist shit, was in the back of a black cab!
> 
> I was even told, by a black cab driver, that a nice white woman like me probably shouldn't move to the house I am currently living in!!
> 
> So yeah, black cabs are shit for many reasons.


Try getting a black cab from central London to Brixton... even if you can find one who's willing, they seem to have a bit of trouble navigating Brixton's one-way system. I've only done it about 8 or 9 times, but literally every single time they get as far as the railway bridge then need turn by turn directions to get to my street - never once have they managed it unaided. And I live in a very central location, not hidden away down some obscure side street. I always assumed the tacit deal with black cabs was that you paid through the nose but they had the legendary "_knowledge_". That was the arrangement - costs a shit load, but they get you anywhere, door to door, no problem. Total arsegravy. I usually ended up giving up a couple of streets away & saying I'd walk the rest of the way. Absolute fucking joke. Black cabs are massively overpriced and often fail at doing the one thing they're supposed to be good at...


----------



## maomao (Sep 22, 2017)

Crispy said:


> Make taxis like the buses. Have fares and service quality mandated by TfL, who also offer the only permitted ride-hailing app. Then various cab companies can provide the actual fleets and drivers.



Not sure why you would need 'companies' with this model. If Tfl were providing an Uber like app what would the company actually be doing? Running a fleet department for tfl?


----------



## Guineveretoo (Sep 22, 2017)

redsquirrel said:


> And what about it's anti-unionism? Is that not a good reason to shut it down?
> 
> (Not that it actually _is _being shut down, unfortunately)


No - I think that is a good reason to force it to recognise trade unions, which is what the trade unions have been working on.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Sep 22, 2017)

Teaboy said:


> Of course these is also the money, someone said up thread it would amount to around £3m ...



That was me, the new licence fee for 5 years would be just short of £3m, up from about £3k, a nice tidy sum for TfL.



> Its just uber being such shifty fuckers that even with all this tfl have decided something has got to change. It shows how fucked-up uber have been.  All these people who are calling conspiracy and the like are just mad fuckers really.



Couldn't agree more.

This hasn't come as some sort of surprise to Uber, they were aware of the problems well before the licence was due for renewal 4 months ago, but seem to have done little to address them. They were given a temp 4 month extension to their licence, but again it seems they have done little to resolve the issues.

This seems to be a classic example of a company expanding to fast, and not handling their growth in respect of what the regulations & law requires.


----------



## Crispy (Sep 22, 2017)

maomao said:


> Not sure why you would need 'companies' with this model. If Tfl were providing an Uber like app what would the company actually be doing? Running a fleet department for tfl?


You may as well ask why we need separate bus companies when TfL could do it all themselves. It'd just be putting a mostly ineffectual competition sugar-coating on the scheme so it's acceptable to our neoliberal mayor.


----------



## redsquirrel (Sep 22, 2017)

Hardcore unionism there.


----------



## maomao (Sep 22, 2017)

Crispy said:


> You may as well ask why we need separate bus companies when TfL could do it all themselves. It'd just be putting a mostly ineffectual competition sugar-coating on the scheme so it's acceptable to our neoliberal mayor.


Yes but bus drivers don't generally pay for their own vehicles and fuel.


----------



## bemused (Sep 22, 2017)

maomao said:


> Not sure why you would need 'companies' with this model. If Tfl were providing an Uber like app what would the company actually be doing? Running a fleet department for tfl?



Local government is shit at innovating in IT.


----------



## redsquirrel (Sep 22, 2017)

Maharani said:


> Now that's enough fucking reason to boycott fucking black cabs. I'm not saying all the drivers are racists but there seems to be a major problem here.


And what about the tax dodging, anti-unionism and attack on working conditions of Uber, is that enough reason to boycott them?

Not picking up BAME punters is utterly shit and TfL should be down on it like a ton of bricks but arguing for the slime that is Uber is counterproductive and hurts everyone.


----------



## Guineveretoo (Sep 22, 2017)

cupid_stunt said:


> Good, because if complaints are not made to TfL, it's hard for them to investigate.
> 
> Although, in respect of cars not fit to be on the road, random checks are regularly carried out by licencing authorities, in conjunction with the police, right across the country. It's not unusual for 20-30% of cabs being ordered off the road after these stops, but TBF often for very minor things.


But only if those cars are licensed. Some licensed private hire car firms use cars which are not licensed as well as those which are!


----------



## moochedit (Sep 22, 2017)

ffsear said:


> SO if i get a uber from say... Caterham,  its will only be able to go so far and not enter London?



Depends if they are licenced by the local council where you want them to pick you up. I think taxi firms can drop you anywhere but only pick up in areas where they are licenced.


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 22, 2017)

I've just been emailed by uber and invited to join the save uber campaign.  Sorry that should be save _your_ uber.


----------



## Guineveretoo (Sep 22, 2017)

Maharani said:


> Ffs. My other half said they most certainly don't pick him up then I heard a few older West Indian folk on the radio calling in to say it. Now that's enough fucking reason to boycott fucking black cabs. I'm not saying all the drivers are racists but there seems to be a major problem here.


I was actually really upset when that cabby told me not to buy the house I am living in. It was the most blatant racism I had directly experienced at the time, and it left me feeling quite shaken. 

of course, it didn't affect whether I bought the house, but it did shake my feeling of being safe in black cabs, which is one of the reasons I bought the house (East Croydon station - black cabs all night, as in another post on here).


----------



## moochedit (Sep 22, 2017)

I dont think uber have ever been licenced in coventry. I still see their cabs about with birmingham taxi licence plates though.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Sep 22, 2017)

Guineveretoo said:


> But only if those cars are licensed. Some licensed private hire car firms use cars which are not licensed as well as those which are!



And, that's when people need to report them to TfL or the police, otherwise there's little chance of the authorities knowing, and the cowboy operators will continue to get away with it.


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 22, 2017)

cupid_stunt said:


> .
> 
> This seems to be a classic example of a company expanding to fast, and not handling their growth in respect of what the regulations & law requires.



Dunno uber seem to have made a habit of falling foul of local laws and regulations all over the world.  Its almost as if they don't give a fuck.  Maybe they are just unlucky?


----------



## Guineveretoo (Sep 22, 2017)

cupid_stunt said:


> And, that's when people need to report them to TfL or the police, otherwise there's little chance of the authorities knowing, and the cowboy operators will continue to get away with it.


I contacted the police one time after my daughter was driven in a car which was not licenced. 

They told me there was nothing they could do about it.


----------



## Cloo (Sep 22, 2017)

On a personal level I am indifferent to this as I'm a bit of tightwad and don't see why I shouldn't just use public transport unless it's the middle of the night (and I have kids, so I'm not often out in the middle of the night), so I seldom use taxis and have never used Uber.

There are interestingly different views on my social media feeds from 'Fuck Uber, evil advantage-taking bastards' to 'This is terrible it's a big employer for a lot of people who might be having a hard time finding other work'; I guess both are valid views.


----------



## maomao (Sep 22, 2017)

moochedit said:


> Depends if they are licenced by the local council where you want them to pick you up. I think taxi firms can drop you anywhere but only pick up in areas where they are licenced.


Either end of the journey can be in the licensed area for a prebooked job. A lot of the bigger London firms get away with operating some services outside London for London based accounts (Eg. taking an employee from Guildford to Gatwick) . I've never heard of any of them being challenged by anyone for doing this.


----------



## Crispy (Sep 22, 2017)

maomao said:


> Yes but bus drivers don't generally pay for their own vehicles and fuel.


Neither would the drivers of tacis under this sort of scheme


----------



## maomao (Sep 22, 2017)

Guineveretoo said:


> I contacted the police one time after my daughter was driven in a car which was not licenced.
> 
> They told me there was nothing they could do about it.


Need to tell TFL not the cops.


----------



## maomao (Sep 22, 2017)

Crispy said:


> Neither would the drivers of tacis under this sort of scheme


Need a little work on the details there.


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 22, 2017)

Guineveretoo said:


> I contacted the police one time after my daughter was driven in a car which was not licenced.
> 
> They told me there was nothing they could do about it.



In fairness to the filth they do take unlicensed cabs pretty seriously, or at least used to when it was more of a problem.  A friend who joined City of London spent pretty much his first year in plain clothes jumping in unlicensed cab and nicking them.  Problem is they have to catch them red handed otherwise its just one persons word against another.


----------



## phillm (Sep 22, 2017)

One problem if they go is they have put a load of mini cab firms out of business in the five years they have been operating. If Uber goes off a cliff at the end date then there will be a vacuum - then see how prices operate in a constricted market. I think most Londoners want a chastened , reformed Uber in the market but they have been damned convenient for a vast swathe of folk , and their shared taxi model can make best use of the roads and cars at a price affordable to most. I would have thought bus champions would welcome a bit less overcrowding that an optimised travel market could provide.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Sep 22, 2017)

Guineveretoo said:


> I contacted the police one time after my daughter was driven in a car which was not licenced.
> 
> They told me there was nothing they could do about it.



They lied.


----------



## Crispy (Sep 22, 2017)

maomao said:


> Need a little work on the details there.


I'm sure we can figure it out


----------



## phillm (Sep 22, 2017)

redsquirrel said:


> And what about the tax dodging, anti-unionism and attack on working conditions of Uber, is that enough reason to boycott them?
> 
> Not picking up BAME punters is utterly shit and TfL should be down on it like a ton of bricks but arguing for the slime that is Uber is counterproductive and hurts everyone.



I'd say Amazon are bigger villains in mega-corp terms - do you use them ? If you boycott them all then hats off to you !


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 22, 2017)

phillm said:


> One problem if they go is they have put a load of mini cab firms out of business in the five years they have been operating. If Uber goes off a cliff at the end date then there will be a vacuum - then see how prices operate in a constricted market. I think most Londoners want a chastened , reformed Uber in the market but they have been damned convenient for a vast swathe of folk , and their shared taxi model can make best use of the roads and cars at a price affordable to most. I would have thought bus champions would welcome a bit less overcrowding that an optimised travel market could provide.



I honestly think uber will get a licence issued shortly.  Its just to big a set up not to.


----------



## redsquirrel (Sep 22, 2017)

phillm said:


> I'd say Amazon are bigger villains in mega-corp terms - do you use them ? If you boycott them all then hats off to you !


I've not argued for a boycott of anybody.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Sep 22, 2017)

Teaboy said:


> I honestly think uber will get a licence issued shortly.  Its just to big a set up not to.



I agree again, this is a big kick-up the arse to Uber, in order to force it to get its house in order, which I am fairly sure they will considering the money involved.


----------



## Guineveretoo (Sep 22, 2017)

Teaboy said:


> In fairness to the filth they do take unlicensed cabs pretty seriously, or at least used to when it was more of a problem.  A friend who joined City of London spent pretty much his first year in plain clothes jumping in unlicensed cab and nicking them.  Problem is they have to catch them red handed otherwise its just one persons word against another.


When I first started going out in London, the police had no interest in this at all, and unlicensed cabbies used to tout for business all over central London.  They clamped down on it, eventually, thankfully, but they still didn't seem that interested in private hire firms which continued to use unlicensed drivers and cars. 

it was a few years ago that I reported that unsafe car. In the end, my daughter and I just decided to boycott that company, which was a bit of a hassle, as it is the nearest one to us. 

Perhaps the police would be more interested now, except that the police are known to have fewer resources than they did a few years ago, so it seems unlikely.


----------



## maomao (Sep 22, 2017)

Guineveretoo said:


> When I first started going out in London, the police had no interest in this at all, and unlicensed cabbies used to tout for business all over central London.  They clamped down on it, eventually, thankfully, but they still didn't seem that interested in private hire firms which continued to use unlicensed drivers and cars.
> 
> it was a few years ago that I reported that unsafe car. In the end, my daughter and I just decided to boycott that company, which was a bit of a hassle, as it is the nearest one to us.
> 
> Perhaps the police would be more interested now, except that the police are known to have fewer resources than they did a few years ago, so it seems unlikely.


Was it more than fourteen years ago?

Tfl/Pco would definitely take this seriously. I've had drivers' licenses pulled on the spot for offenses like touting and had cars banned from working for faults discovered during spot checks while carrying passengers.


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 22, 2017)

Guineveretoo said:


> When I first started going out in London, the police had no interest in this at all, and unlicensed cabbies used to tout for business all over central London.  They clamped down on it, eventually, thankfully, but they still didn't seem that interested in private hire firms which continued to use unlicensed drivers and cars.



Yeah initially the police turned a blind eye because they were useful. There were too few black cabs and the tube didn't run late enough so they provided a service which the police thought was useful.  Of course than the sexual assault reports started to roll in and everything changed.


----------



## editor (Sep 22, 2017)

Maharani said:


> Ffs. My other half said they most certainly don't pick him up then I heard a few older West Indian folk on the radio calling in to say it. Now that's enough fucking reason to boycott fucking black cabs. I'm not saying all the drivers are racists but there seems to be a major problem here.


If you look a bit 'different' there's always a good chance that they'll ignore you too. I've got no love for black cabs at all.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Sep 22, 2017)

maomao said:


> Was it more than fourteen years ago?
> 
> Tfl/Pco would definitely take this seriously. I've had drivers' licenses pulled on the spot for offenses like touting and had cars banned from working for faults discovered during spot checks while carrying passengers.



I assume TfL works in conjunction with the police on spot checks & reports of unlicensed cab drivers, like they do in the rest of the country?

The licensing authority deals with the licensing issues, whilst the police deal with crimes concerning vehicles not being fit to be on the road, and invalid insurance, etc.


----------



## maomao (Sep 22, 2017)

cupid_stunt said:


> I assume TfL works in conjunction with the police on spot checks & reports of unlicensed cab drivers, like they do in the rest of the country?
> 
> The licensing authority deals with the licensing issues, whilst the police deal with crimes concerning vehicles not being fit to be on the road, and invalid insurance, etc.


PCO vehicles do 6 monthly MOTs and annual PCO checks to ensure that they're fit to be used as passenger vehicles and are judged to a higher standard at spot checks by PCO officials. Giving work to a driver without having a copy of their up to date hire and reward insurance on file is a breech of the operator's license and so also a matter for the PCO.

And yes, on road checks are in conjunction with filth.


----------



## Guineveretoo (Sep 22, 2017)

maomao said:


> Was it more than fourteen years ago?
> 
> Tfl/Pco would definitely take this seriously. I've had drivers' licenses pulled on the spot for offenses like touting and had cars banned from working for faults discovered during spot checks while carrying passengers.


It might have been. My daughter moved out 11 years ago 

Why?


----------



## maomao (Sep 22, 2017)

Guineveretoo said:


> It might have been. My daughter moved out 11 years ago
> 
> Why?


Because they only brought in PCO licensing for vehicles in 2003. PCO checks are very very strict these days. Giving work to unlicensed drivers probably does happen though.


----------



## agricola (Sep 22, 2017)

Teaboy said:


> Yeah initially the police turned a blind eye because they were useful. There were too few black cabs and the tube didn't run late enough so they provided a service which the police thought was useful.  Of course than the sexual assault reports started to roll in and everything changed.



Not really.  Officers at Charing Cross and West End Central regularly (at least around 1999-2003) used to go out to catch unlicenced minicabs and many people appeared at Bow Street as a result; it was a very easy offence to prove, there was a very quick turnaround time in custody and it didn't require that much paperwork.  The PCO used to go out with officers as well, but they seemed to focus on black cabs.


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 22, 2017)

agricola said:


> Not really.  Officers at Charing Cross and West End Central regularly (at least around 1999-2003) used to go out to catch unlicenced minicabs and many people appeared at Bow Street as a result; it was a very easy offence to prove, there was a very quick turnaround time in custody and it didn't require that much paperwork.  The PCO used to go out with officers as well, but they seemed to focus on black cabs.



Fair enough.  Just CoL Police who were slack fuckers than.


----------



## editor (Sep 22, 2017)

This petition has already reached 196k signatures



> *Save Your Uber in London*
> 
> The Mayor and Transport for London (TfL) today announced that they have decided not to renew Uber’s Operator Licence when it expires on 30th September.
> 
> ...



Sign the Petition


----------



## redsquirrel (Sep 22, 2017)

editor said:


> The petition has already reached 196k sigantures
> 
> Sign the Petition


And do you think that's a good thing or not? Will you be signing it?


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 22, 2017)

editor said:


> This petition has already reached 196k signatures
> 
> 
> 
> Sign the Petition



I imagine they'll get close to 1/2 million.  Its London, we had Boris Johnson as mayor.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Sep 22, 2017)

maomao & agricola - sounds about the same as in Sussex, I know a few cab drivers, the head controller of one big firm & the owner of a small firm. The cops are hot on reports of unlicensed cabs, and generally start with them driving uninsured, as normal insurance is invalid for carrying fee-paying passengers, then move onto how fit the vehicle is to be on the road, and then involves the local authority for any issues over licencing.

ETA: Basically it's always a joint thing, police take the lead on unlicensed cabs, local authority on licensed cabs.


----------



## phillm (Sep 22, 2017)

redsquirrel said:


> And do you think that's a good thing or not? Will you be signing it?



I think positions are well known. 203k now.


----------



## Guineveretoo (Sep 22, 2017)

maomao said:


> Because they only brought in PCO licensing for vehicles in 2003. PCO checks are very very strict these days. Giving work to unlicensed drivers probably does happen though.


It was after that. Because I remember that it was, specifically, an unlicensed one despite the company now being a licensed company. 

In fact, now I think about it, it was after my daughter had moved out, so it was after 2006, as well.


----------



## Guineveretoo (Sep 22, 2017)

Teaboy said:


> I imagine they'll get close to 1/2 million.  Its London, we had Boris Johnson as mayor.


I can't bring myself to sign it because I don't want to support the status quo.


----------



## editor (Sep 22, 2017)

redsquirrel said:


> And do you think that's a good thing or not? Will you be signing it?


Just getting rid of a service that is as widely used as Uber will not be of any overall benefit to Londoners and it will also deprive thousands of drivers of their income overnight. That's not to say that Uber's working practices shouldn't be reformed though. So what do you think?


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 22, 2017)

Remember when Virgin lost their west coast main line franchise and they managed to start a pretty successful petition.  Brand loyalty is an odd thing and quite frankly some people will sign anything for the lulz.


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 22, 2017)

A sexual assault accusation against one of its drivers every 11 days should be very worrying to uber.  The fact they are trying to hide this sort of stuff should be worrying to all of us.  I don't think I'll be signing that.


----------



## redsquirrel (Sep 22, 2017)

editor said:


> Just getting rid of a service that is as widely used as Uber will not be of any overall benefit to Londoners and it will also deprive thousands of drivers of their income overnight. That's not to say that Uber's working practices shouldn't be reformed though. So what do you think?


I think you seem to oppose a relative minor setback (that in the longer term should result in minor progress for workers) for a tax-dodging, anti-union, company which has been attack workers rights from day one. A rather strange position for a supposed socialist to take.


----------



## maomao (Sep 22, 2017)

editor said:


> Just getting rid of a service that is as widely used as Uber will not be of any overall benefit to Londoners and it will also deprive thousands of drivers of their income overnight. That's not to say that Uber's working practices shouldn't be reformed though. So what do you think?



It's Uber's fault for not complying not Tfl's for somehow finally finding the balls to sanction them for it.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Sep 22, 2017)

editor said:


> Just getting rid of a service that is as widely used as Uber will not be of any overall benefit to Londoners and it will also deprive thousands of drivers of their income overnight. That's not to say that Uber's working practices shouldn't be reformed though. So what do you think?



But, they will not be disappearing overnight, they can continue to operate whilst the appeal is ongoing. They have yet another chance to put their house in order, as if they haven't had plenty of time already to start doing that.

If they fail to reform, and lose their appeal, do you still want to support a massive international corporate failing to ensure their drivers have proper criminal records checks & medical reports, and failing to report serious criminal offences?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 22, 2017)

editor said:


> Just getting rid of a service that is as widely used as Uber will not be of any overall benefit to Londoners and it will also deprive thousands of drivers of their income overnight. That's not to say that Uber's working practices shouldn't be reformed though.



I think that's exactly it.

Uber is shit. Their private equity backing to control the market (and then prices), their tax dodging and their employment model stink.

But 40,000 people earn income via it. The safety argument TfL has deployed is bizarre - with uber you know who the driver is, its cashless and there is no fare row. Contrast and compare with the unlicensed cabs and some of the dodgy fuckers driving some mini cabs 'in the night time economy'  

I'd be celebrating if Uber had been forced to pay tax and forced to pay the workers a decent wage but the idea of applauding a load of middle class licensing bores stripping 40,000 people of work?


----------



## redsquirrel (Sep 22, 2017)

We can't stop BEA selling arms to Saudi Arabia  - just think of all the workers in the arms industry!


----------



## editor (Sep 22, 2017)

redsquirrel said:


> I think you seem to oppose a relative minor setback (that in the longer term should result in minor progress for workers) for a tax-dodging, anti-union, company which has been attack workers rights from day one. A rather strange position for a supposed socialist to take.


Do you use Google, Apple, Amazon etc? That's a rather strange position for a supposed socialist to take zzzzzzzz.


----------



## Reiabuzz (Sep 22, 2017)

Bring it on TfL. Looking to the future.


----------



## redsquirrel (Sep 22, 2017)

editor said:


> Do you use Google, Apple, Amazon etc? That's a rather strange position for a supposed socialist to take zzzzzzzz.


I do. But no it isn't, you're just showing your ignorance of what socialism is. 

And FTR I've not argued for people not to use those companies, or Uber for that matter.


----------



## editor (Sep 22, 2017)

redsquirrel said:


> We can't stop BEA selling arms to Saudi Arabia  - just think of all the workers in the arms industry!


You've already dusted off the ad hominem, so will you be working your away through this entire list? 
A List Of Fallacious Arguments


----------



## cupid_stunt (Sep 22, 2017)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I think that's exactly it.
> 
> Uber is shit. Their private equity backing to control the market (and then prices), their tax dodging and their employment model stink.
> 
> ...



I basically agree, Uber is minted in the London market, it needs to step up & sort itself out, but re-BIB - both need dealing with, it's not one or the other, it's both.


----------



## editor (Sep 22, 2017)

redsquirrel said:


> I do. But no it isn't. And FTR I've not argued for people not to use those companies, or Uber for that matter.


Where have I 'argued' for anyone to use (or not use) Uber in this debate?

Here's my full quote again in the hope that you will stop trying to misrepresent it.



> Just getting rid of a service that is as widely used as Uber will not be of any overall benefit to Londoners and it will also deprive thousands of drivers of their income overnight. That's not to say that Uber's working practices shouldn't be reformed though.


In short: I think Uber should be reformed but I don't think banning it overnight is the answer.


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 22, 2017)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I think that's exactly it.
> 
> Uber is shit. Their private equity backing to control the market (and then prices), their tax dodging and their employment model stink.
> 
> ...



The work element is a worry, but is has been pointed out time and again that there will still be work available with other cab companies.  Also they have appealed so they will still operate and lets face it, uber are going nowhere.

I'll say it again though it's odd how on this site we rail against multi-nationals who piss all over the law and regulations which are there for our safety but now a licensing authority has said enough is enough some don't like that decision.  This is uber's fault they're in this position, why on earth would anyone want to go into bat for uber?

Also I'll say this again, while the ghost of Grenfell still haunts West London I really don't like talk diminishing the importance of abiding by rules which are there to protect us, licensing bores?  Really?


----------



## redsquirrel (Sep 22, 2017)

editor said:


> You've already dusted off the ad hominem, so will you be working your away through this entire list?
> A List Of Fallacious Arguments


What's fallacious about my point. And no I haven't "dusted off the ad hominem", if you're going to come out with that nonsense I suggest you actually learn what "ad hominem" is.


----------



## redsquirrel (Sep 22, 2017)

editor said:


> Where have I 'argued' for anyone to use Uber in this debate?


I've not said you have. Read that post again I'm saying _I_ never argued the position you implied I did.


----------



## editor (Sep 22, 2017)

redsquirrel said:


> What's fallacious about my point. And no I haven't "dusted off the ad hominem", if you're going to come out with that nonsense I suggest you actually learn what "ad hominem" is.





> Ad Hominem (Argument To The Man):
> attacking the person instead of attacking his argument.


"Supposed socialist".

HTH.


----------



## redsquirrel (Sep 22, 2017)

editor said:


> "Supposed socialist".


That's not "ad hominem"


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 22, 2017)

Reiabuzz said:


> Bring it on TfL. Looking to the future.



You mad fucker, you really believe this is about tfl ring fencing business?  Do you still believe tfl run the black cabs?


----------



## editor (Sep 22, 2017)

redsquirrel said:


> That's not "ad hominem"


I think I'll just ignore you in this thread from now on, thanks.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Sep 22, 2017)

Basically, Uber as the biggest operator in London is operating in a similiar dodgy way as some of the small cowboy outfits, that needs to change.

They have been on a warning for fucking ages, yet they don't seem to have taken it seriously, now they need to get their act together quickly, it's their call at the end of the day.


----------



## redsquirrel (Sep 22, 2017)

editor said:


> I think I'll just ignore you in this thread from now on, thanks.


Why because you don't know what "ad hominem" is? It's not calling someone a name.


----------



## TruXta (Sep 22, 2017)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I think that's exactly it.
> 
> Uber is shit. Their private equity backing to control the market (and then prices), their tax dodging and their employment model stink.
> 
> ...


How is the safety argument bizarre? Are you ok with them breaching the terms of the licence in this manner?


----------



## maomao (Sep 22, 2017)

Reiabuzz said:


> Bring it on TfL. Looking to the future.



Other Tfl compliant apps and providers are available. I'd imagine Addison Lee will be on the phone to Ford about a couple of thousand brand new Galaxies.


----------



## Yossarian (Sep 22, 2017)

Drivers are talking about how they're going to struggle to pay off vehicle loans - does Uber pull the same shit in the UK it does in the US and make a lot of high-interest loans to drivers who would have a hard time getting credit from anybody else?


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 22, 2017)

cupid_stunt said:


> Basically, Uber as the biggest operator in London is operating in a similiar dodgy way as some of the small cowboy outfits, that needs to change.
> 
> They have been on a warning for fucking ages, yet they don't seem to have taken it seriously, now they need to get their act together quickly, it's their call at the end of the day.



It really is as straight forward as this isn't it?

I really think tfl and a lot of people want uber to exist.  It's just whats the point in having any regulation if you don't enforce it?


----------



## Orang Utan (Sep 22, 2017)

Funny how people online are now referring to Uber drivers as employees. They were self employed before this kerfuffle.


----------



## editor (Sep 22, 2017)

Yossarian said:


> Drivers are talking about how they're going to struggle to pay off vehicle loans - does Uber pull the same shit in the UK it does in the US and make a lot of high-interest loans to drivers who would have a hard time getting credit from anybody else?


I thought Uber drivers used their own cars.

Edit: Uber wants drivers to buy their own cars using Zopa


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 22, 2017)

TruXta said:


> How is the safety argument bizarre? Are you ok with them breaching the terms of the licence in this manner?



My point was that Uber is much much safer than unlicensed cabs and also many of the mini cabs who operate (in Birmingham).


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 22, 2017)

editor said:


> I thought Uber drivers used their own cars.
> 
> Edit: Uber wants drivers to buy their own cars using Zopa



I'm guessing that many uber drivers don't have enough funds to pay the whole lot up front so it would make sense to have a finance scheme in place.


----------



## TruXta (Sep 22, 2017)

Smokeandsteam said:


> My point was that Uber is much much safer than unlicensed cabs and also many of the mini cabs who operate (in Birmingham).


And?


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 22, 2017)

Smokeandsteam said:


> My point was that Uber is much much safer than unlicensed cabs and also many of the mini cabs who operate (in Birmingham).



Perhaps.  A sexual assault allegation every 11 days suggests its not exactly safe though.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 22, 2017)

Teaboy said:


> I'll say it again though it's odd how on this site we rail against multi-nationals who piss all over the law and regulations which are there for our safety but now a licensing authority has said enough is enough some don't like that decision.  This is uber's fault they're in this position, why on earth would anyone want to go into bat for uber?



Two points:

1. Nobody is supporting Uber or their buisness model - I don't think my comments on that could be clearer 
2. We do 'rail against multi nationals' but I would like to see them bought to heel by worker organisation, not 40,000 of them made poorer by a licensing authority.


----------



## Ho Chi Ming (Sep 22, 2017)

Lambert Simnel said:


> Give me Uber over a self-employed black cabbie any day. The driver is far less likely to be some sort of cunt.


Source?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 22, 2017)

TruXta said:


> And?



You asked why I said TfL's safety argument was bizarre. I answered.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Sep 22, 2017)

Teaboy said:


> A sexual assault accusation against one of its drivers every 11 days should be very worrying to uber.


I'd be more interested in seeing how this compares to standard minicabs/passenger journey numbers.

While that number is clearly horrendous is it specifically higher for Uber? Or is it a problem across all private cabs?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Sep 22, 2017)

Teaboy said:


> I'm guessing that many uber drivers don't have enough funds to pay the whole lot up front so it would make sense to have a finance scheme in place.


I look forward to the company writing off the loans now that they can no longer provide them with work. 

'partner drivers'

*puke*


----------



## cupid_stunt (Sep 22, 2017)

Teaboy said:


> It really is as straight forward as this isn't it?
> 
> I really think tfl and a lot of people want uber to exist.  It's just whats the point in having any regulation if you don't enforce it?



Of course it is. Uber has been warned time & time again, but failed to reform, I firmly believe it's because they have grown too fast & lost control of the situation, rather than just thinking they are too big to be taken down, but I could be wrong.

TfL had to act, they can't allow the biggest cab operator to ignore them & the regulations, Uber will just have to step up to the mark and sort their mess out.


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 22, 2017)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Two points:
> 
> 1. Nobody is supporting Uber or their buisness model - I don't think my comments on that could be clearer
> 2. We do 'rail against multi nationals' but I would like to see them bought to heel by worker organisation, not 40,000 of them made poorer by a licensing authority.



OK but until the glorious day comes should tfl just turn a blind eye to continual flouting of rules and regulations because it could be worse?  A

I'm willing to take a bet from you that no uber driver will lose out over this.  This isn't something that's just happened out of the blue, tfl and uber have been talking for ages and tfl have obviously decided to call their bluff.

This is about uber and it's arrogance that the rules apply to everyone else except them.  If any driver loses out because of this the blame lays squarely at their door.


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 22, 2017)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> I'd be more interested in seeing how this compares to standard minicabs/passenger journey numbers.
> 
> While that number is clearly horrendous is it specifically higher for Uber? Or is it a problem across all private cabs?



That's a very good point.


----------



## TruXta (Sep 22, 2017)

Smokeandsteam said:


> You asked why I said TfL's safety argument was bizarre. I answered.


With some bs whataboutery. Well done.


----------



## editor (Sep 22, 2017)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> I'd be more interested in seeing how this compares to standard minicabs/passenger journey numbers.
> 
> While that number is clearly horrendous is it specifically higher for Uber? Or is it a problem across all private cabs?


It's certainly a well documented problem - there's been several high profile advertising campaigns about the perils of getting in unlicensed cabs before the arrival of Uber - but, as you say, it would be interesting to see how it compares against other cabs.

I would have thought that the fact that the name and number of Uber drivers is tracked and recorded, they would be less likely to assault passengers compared to cabs you just ring up and know nothing about, but I've no idea if that is true or not.


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 22, 2017)

There is another thing and that an unlicensed cab essentially means unregulated.  If uber (or any other cab firm) are not complying with the regulations than what is the difference?

_We are fully regulated, we just ignore those regulations._


----------



## editor (Sep 22, 2017)

Some stats here 
More than 400 London cab drivers charged with crimes last year


----------



## maomao (Sep 22, 2017)

Teaboy said:


> Perhaps.  A sexual assault allegation every 11 days suggests its not exactly safe though.


Tbf they have 30,00 drivers and probably do a couple of hundred thousand jobs a day. The firm I worked with longest did about 1.2 million jobs over 7 years and had two complaints of sexual harassment in that time. It's more about how they've dealt with those complaints.


----------



## ash (Sep 22, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> are you 12?
> it would feel a bit weird in a taxi anyway


And there isn't usually a seat in a black can its luggage space


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 22, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> are you 12?
> it would feel a bit weird in a taxi anyway


What a question to ask someone who registered in 2003


----------



## cupid_stunt (Sep 22, 2017)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> I'd be more interested in seeing how this compares to standard minicabs/passenger journey numbers.
> 
> While that number is clearly horrendous is it specifically higher for Uber? Or is it a problem across all private cabs?



Likewise.

It's a thought I had when I first posted the figure of the Met investigating a new rape or sexual claim against a Uber driver every 11 days. But, OTOH, I am not sure it matters for two reasons:

1 - All private cab firms need proper regulation & control, it's not one or the other.

2 - Uber is the biggest, and in by far the best financial position to ensure it checks the drivers' documents, and seems to have systematically failed to do so, despite repeated warnings. Plus there's the claim from the Met that they have failed to report serious crimes.

Should such claims be made & proven against smaller operators, they should also be refused renewal of their licences.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 22, 2017)

ash said:


> And there isn't usually a seat in a black can its luggage space


Or where the cabbie keeps his stuff


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 22, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> What a question to ask someone who registered in 2003



Parents register their kids for urban before they are born.  Its a bit like Eton in that respect.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 22, 2017)

Teaboy said:


> I'm willing to take a bet from you that no uber driver will lose out over this.  This isn't something that's just happened out of the blue, tfl and uber have been talking for ages and tfl have obviously decided to call their bluff.
> .



Good of you to be so sanguine on their behalf but it's not what their union (the IWGB) is saying or the GMB for that matter. They are saying its 'devestating' news for the workers.

I am genuinely shocked that 'the left' seem to think TfL has delivered a hammer blow to private equity capitalism. Seriously?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 22, 2017)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Good of you to be so sanguine on their behalf but it's not what their union (the IWGB) is saying or the GMB for that matter. They are saying its 'devestating' news for the workers.
> 
> I am genuinely shocked that 'the left' seem to think TfL has delivered a hammer blow to private equity capitalism. Seriously?


Aren't the gmb and iwgb as unions of 'the left'?


----------



## bemused (Sep 22, 2017)

I'm very interested to see the public response to this. Uber is one of the basic transport tools now in London, the threat of removing it may have some interesting political outcomes if the public mood swings against TfL - not the most popular London regulatory board in the first place.


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 22, 2017)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Good of you to be so sanguine on their behalf but it's not what their union (the IWGB) is saying or the GMB for that matter. They are saying its 'devestating' news for the workers.
> 
> I am genuinely shocked that 'the left' seem to think TfL has delivered a hammer blow to private equity capitalism. Seriously?



Is anyone saying that though?

I'm genuinely shocked that you think a company that has time and time again flouted rules which are there to protect us should be allowed to carry on regardless because they are a big company.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 22, 2017)

IWGB statement

*Our reaction to TfL's decision today to revoke #Uber's license:

James Farrar, co-claimant in landmark employment tribunal decision against Uber and chair of the Independent Workers' Union of Great Britain's (IWGB) United Private Hire Drivers (UPHD) branch said:

"This is a devastating blow for 30,000 Londoners who now face losing their job and being saddled with unmanageable vehicle related debt.To strip Uber of it's license after five years of laissez faire regulation is a testament to a systemic failure at TfL. Rather than banish Uber, TfL should have strengthened its regulatory oversight, curbed runaway licensing and protected the worker rights of drivers. The Mayor must call for an urgent independent review of TfL to identify the causes of failure and prevent something like this from ever happening again."*

Spot on


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 22, 2017)

bemused said:


> I'm very interested to see the public response to this. Uber is one of the basic transport tools now in London, the threat of removing it may have some interesting political outcomes if the public mood swings against TfL - not the most popular London regulatory board in the first place.



Me too.  They are going to come under a lot of pressure of this, they surely knew that though?


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 22, 2017)

Smokeandsteam said:


> IWGB statement
> 
> Our reaction to TfL's decision today to revoke #Uber's license:
> 
> ...



Sure, I don't think anyone would argue with that but it does though, remove any responsibility from uber.	The alternative is that uber does like every other cab company and just comply.


----------



## phillm (Sep 22, 2017)

bemused said:


> I'm very interested to see the public response to this. Uber is one of the basic transport tools now in London, the threat of removing it may have some interesting political outcomes if the public mood swings against TfL - not the most popular London regulatory board in the first place.



262k now manning the petition barricades - all together now - What do we want ? Uber ! When do we want it ? NOW !


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 22, 2017)

Teaboy said:


> Sure, I don't think anyone would argue with that.



Well you have.....


----------



## redsquirrel (Sep 22, 2017)

Smokeandsteam said:


> IWGB statement
> 
> *Our reaction to TfL's decision today to revoke #Uber's license:
> 
> ...


He's completely right the TfL, and other bodies, should have cracked down on Uber much, much earlier. That doesn't mean that they should continue to let Uber flout regulations.


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 22, 2017)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Well you have.....



I guess I have.

I do get where you're coming from, its horrible for the workers to have this hanging over them.  I've been made redundant twice in my life with nothing more than my last month's wages.  Its two groups of suits having a fall out and as ever the workers are going to be the ones who pay.

What I can't get my head around though is why anyone would not hold uber themselves wholly to blame for this.  The accusations against them are pretty serious and you can do all you like with regulations but if one party isn't interested in following them what do you do?


----------



## binka (Sep 22, 2017)

Teaboy said:


> What I can't get my head around though is why anyone would not hold uber themselves wholly to blame for this.  The accusations against them are pretty serious and you can do all you like with regulations but if one party isn't interested in following them what do you do?


I don't think anyone can reasonably blame anyone other than Uber for this. They are a shit company I just don't think they're particularly worse than any private hire company or a bus company like Stagecoach.

The app itself though is brilliant. The ideal situation would be the app run as some sort of workers co-operative with local authority oversight to make sure regulations are adhered to and drivers are entitled to sick pay and can accrue holiday pay. Not sure how likely that is though


----------



## Raheem (Sep 22, 2017)

binka said:


> The ideal situation would be the app run as some sort of workers co-operative with local authority oversight to make sure regulations are adhered to and drivers are entitled to sick pay and can accrue holiday pay. Not sure how likely that is though



Well, there may be about to be a gap in the market.


----------



## Maharani (Sep 22, 2017)

Guineveretoo said:


> I was actually really upset when that cabby told me not to buy the house I am living in. It was the most blatant racism I had directly experienced at the time, and it left me feeling quite shaken.
> 
> of course, it didn't affect whether I bought the house, but it did shake my feeling of being safe in black cabs, which is one of the reasons I bought the house (East Croydon station - black cabs all night, as in another post on here).


Did you report this?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 22, 2017)

Teaboy said:


> Most of the black cabs round my way (SW London) are driven by black or asian descent guys anyway.  I think its more when you get towards Central London you get the cliched cockney racist.


Yeh my cabby mate's of indian descent


----------



## J Ed (Sep 22, 2017)

What is stopping the replacement of uber with a cooperatively owned app?


----------



## Gromit (Sep 22, 2017)

J Ed said:


> What is stopping the replacement of uber with a cooperatively owned app?


Investment capital


----------



## not-bono-ever (Sep 22, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> Or where the cabbie keeps his stuff



Ramps and disabled access stuff also- not soemthin Uber has to consider innit


----------



## phillm (Sep 22, 2017)

not-bono-ever said:


> Ramps and disabled access stuff also- not soemthin Uber has to consider innit



It seems though at least in theory they have considered the disability issue in great detail.

https://accessibility.uber.com/


----------



## maomao (Sep 22, 2017)

J Ed said:


> What is stopping the replacement of uber with a cooperatively owned app?


Many many things. Primarily the lack of organisation and funding on the part of minicab drivers, the presence of many billions of pounds in investment capital ready to fund just about anything that'll fill a gap in the market and the lack of any political will to facilitate any such thing.


----------



## binka (Sep 22, 2017)

maomao said:


> Many many things. Primarily the lack of organisation and funding on the part of minicab drivers, the presence of many billions of pounds in investment capital ready to fund just about anything that'll fill a gap in the market and the lack of any political will to facilitate any such thing.


Billions might be a bit much but maybe millions? The sort of money that a union with tens of thousands of members might be able to afford anyway?


----------



## Yossarian (Sep 22, 2017)

maomao said:


> Many many things. Primarily the lack of organisation and funding on the part of minicab drivers, the presence of many billions of pounds in investment capital ready to fund just about anything that'll fill a gap in the market and the lack of any political will to facilitate any such thing.



Yep, Uber loses money on every ride, they were down something ridiculous like $3 billion last year, not much chance of a cooperatively owned venture being willing to lose that kind of money, especially since the whole business model relies on eventually making taxi drivers obsolete.


----------



## Raheem (Sep 22, 2017)

maomao said:


> ...the presence of many billions of pounds in investment capital ready to fund just about anything that'll fill a gap in the market...



Not sure about this. I'm not claiming to have proper knowledge, but the lion's share of Uber's investment in London, I would guess, has been on building its brand and attracting drivers and users (quite a lot also on lawyers and lobbyists, probably). If you're in a situation of being able, potentially, to pick up a large number of orphaned drivers and users, wouldn't the core costs boil down to developing an ap and paying for a non-enormous central admin team? Possibly within the reach of, say, a trade union.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 22, 2017)

binka said:


> Billions might be a bit much but maybe millions? The sort of money that a union with tens of thousands of members might be able to afford anyway?


yeh. which union's that then?

gmb? don't suppose they've tens of thousands of private hire drivers on the books. nor, i imagine, do the iwgb.


----------



## maomao (Sep 22, 2017)

binka said:


> Billions might be a bit much but maybe millions? The sort of money that a union with tens of thousands of members might be able to afford anyway?


Well they're up against billions. Look up 'Gett'. They're the next big mover in the market. They've just taken over One Transport which owns Radio Taxis (which I believe a long long time ago was co-op).


----------



## cupid_stunt (Sep 22, 2017)

Yossarian said:


> *Yep, Uber loses money on every ride*, they were down something ridiculous like $3 billion last year, not much chance of a cooperatively owned venture being willing to lose that kind of money, especially since the whole business model relies on eventually making taxi drivers obsolete.



Uber doesn't lose money in the UK, they are doing very well, although most their revenues disappears out of the country, so as to avoid paying taxes here.

Profits at Uber's UK arm doubled last year as its drivers racked up more than £100m in fares


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Sep 22, 2017)

J Ed said:


> What is stopping the replacement of uber with a cooperatively owned app?


There are plenty of apps which do the same thing but with licensed taxis. MyTaxi is one - I use it when I need to get a cab for work, as it also works internationally.


----------



## maomao (Sep 22, 2017)

cupid_stunt said:


> Uber doesn't lose money in the UK, they are doing very well, although most their revenues disappears out of the country, so as to avoid paying taxes here.
> 
> Profits at Uber's UK arm doubled last year as its drivers racked up more than £100m in fares


Which is why they'll back the fuck down and this is a storm in a teacup.

About three years ago I worked for a startup who were given the nod to work by the PCO to start working while the operator's license was being processed. A large competitor complained and we immediately had to fuck off out of the building and run operations from another cab office's back room under their license for about a month.  We weren't given three weeks to sort our shit out.


----------



## Gromit (Sep 22, 2017)

cupid_stunt said:


> Uber doesn't lose money in the UK, they are doing very well, although most their revenues disappears out of the country, so as to avoid paying taxes here.
> 
> Profits at Uber's UK arm doubled last year as its drivers racked up more than £100m in fares


Ah journalism 101. 

Can you exaggerate a figure somehow? Yes? Then do it. Okay um Pre-tax profits. 

Can't you exaggerate it further? Well we could use the word profits in the headline but then quote turnover instead as that's a bigger number.  Great do that.


----------



## Orang Utan (Sep 22, 2017)

Why is an app necessary to get a cab? I sometimes use a local cab service. All I need to do is call them and a cab is there within 5 minutes. I often don't even need to tell them where I'm going or where I need to pick up from, I just press another key. Much better than using up precious memory on my phone.


----------



## binka (Sep 22, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh. which union's that then?
> 
> gmb? don't suppose they've tens of thousands of private hire drivers on the books. nor, i imagine, do the iwgb.


Poverty of ambition. I'm a dreamer what else can I say?


----------



## Lambert Simnel (Sep 22, 2017)

Ho Chi Ming said:


> Source?



Me


----------



## cupid_stunt (Sep 22, 2017)

Gromit said:


> Ah journalism 101.
> 
> Can you exaggerate a figure somehow? Yes? Then do it. Okay um Pre-tax profits.
> 
> Can't you exaggerate it further? Well we could use the word profits in the headline but then quote turnover instead as that's a bigger number.  Great do that.



It's a headline FFS, designed to grab attention, and pull you in to read the article, nowt wrong with that.


----------



## bemused (Sep 22, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> Why is an app necessary to get a cab? I sometimes use a local cab service. All I need to do is call them and a cab is there within 5 minutes. I often don't even need to tell them where I'm going or where I need to pick up from, I just press another key. Much better than using up precious memory on my phone.



Because I don't need to use cash. I use Uber all over the place and it is nice not to messing around with cash.


----------



## Orang Utan (Sep 22, 2017)

bemused said:


> Because I don't need to use cash. I use Uber all over the place and it is nice not to messing around with cash.


that's a good reason NOT to use Uber or a cab app - cos you can't use cash!


----------



## maomao (Sep 22, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> Why is an app necessary to get a cab? I sometimes use a local cab service. All I need to do is call them and a cab is there within 5 minutes. I often don't even need to tell them where I'm going or where I need to pick up from, I just press another key. Much better than using up precious memory on my phone.


That's your local company round the corner. Five minutes till they're busy one day and they quote you an hour. The big firms in central London aimed for twenty minute pickups for years. Addison Lee got that down to fives and tens and Uber make Addison Lee look slow. I walked out of Newbury Park station and got a car in under two minutes the other day (more broken down trains and I just wanted to get home). Noone except Uber has been able to do that in London. It's not so much the software as the amount of vehicles that allows them to do this. Addison Lee's software could probably do the same if they had as many drivers.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Sep 22, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> that's a good reason NOT to use Uber or a cab app - cos you can't use cash!


It's the perfect reason to use them, between that and being able to use my phone for contactless payments I'm struggling to remember the last time I actually used cash at anything other than a corner shop for a bag of crisps.


----------



## bemused (Sep 22, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> that's a good reason NOT to use Uber or a cab app - cos you can't use cash!



It is a good reason for me.


----------



## TruXta (Sep 22, 2017)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> It's the perfect reason to use them, between that and being able to use my phone for contactless payments I'm struggling to remember the last time I actually used cash at anything other than a corner shop for a bag of crisps.


((((dealers))))

although I guess online folks are all about bitcoins these days


----------



## cupid_stunt (Sep 22, 2017)

maomao said:


> That's your local company round the corner. Five minutes till they're busy one day and they quote you an hour. The big firms in central London aimed for twenty minute pickups for years. Addison Lee got that down to fives and tens and Uber make Addison Lee look slow. I walked out of Newbury Park station and got a car in under two minutes the other day (more broken down trains and I just wanted to get home). Noone except Uber has been able to do that in London. It's not so much the software as the amount of vehicles that allows them to do this. Addison Lee's software could probably do the same if they had as many drivers.



The key is getting the drivers, which is why Uber launched with an offer IIRC to take just 10% commission, then once they hooked the drivers, that went up to IIRC 25% now!

Uber's model is wipe out mini-cab firms, followed by the black cabs, then the drivers themselves, as they replace them with driver-less cars, which I guess will solve the problem of sexual assaults.


----------



## editor (Sep 22, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> Why is an app necessary to get a cab? I sometimes use a local cab service. All I need to do is call them and a cab is there within 5 minutes. I often don't even need to tell them where I'm going or where I need to pick up from, I just press another key. Much better than using up precious memory on my phone.


Because some people like the reassurance of knowing the driver's name and number plate in advance, and the reassurance of seeing their progress on a map, so they know when they're actually going to show up. It also makes sure the driver knows where you are to pick you up.

I'll take the convenience of an app over ringing up a cab office every time.


----------



## DJWrongspeed (Sep 22, 2017)

Reiabuzz said:


> Erm, can nobody else see the blatant conflict of interest here from TfL? Why isn’t an independent body in charge of these decisions? These guys run the black cabs.



The black cabs have been moaning alot but TFL didn't do anything for a few year lets be honest.
Uber have just not signed up to the regulations properly and let the police down also.

TFL are "Transport *FOR* London" it's in the name.

There's been a big problem with the congestion zone being eroded by Uber and their dangerous driving antics. It erodes the bus service with more congestion and takes away passengers, makes many perfectly fit and healthy people lazy (I've seen 1st hand and sure everyone has).

London has limited road space. It's TFL's job to manage that.  Uber isn't gone forever but TFL must make sure all transport works together.


----------



## Orang Utan (Sep 22, 2017)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> It's the perfect reason to use them, between that and being able to use my phone for contactless payments I'm struggling to remember the last time I actually used cash at anything other than a corner shop for a bag of crisps.


I will always favour cash on a night out, so I can keep track of what I'm spending.


----------



## ShiftyBagLady (Sep 22, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> Why is an app necessary to get a cab? I sometimes use a local cab service. All I need to do is call them and a cab is there within 5 minutes. I often don't even need to tell them where I'm going or where I need to pick up from, I just press another key. Much better than using up precious memory on my phone.


You've got a point but it's more dangerous to be calling a cab in the middle of nowhere where someone might see you and roll up and say they are a cab. In my cab taking days I'd spend ages waiting and calling to see why it's late, standing in the cold... my experience of cabs has not been a good one. I've not had a bad trip with uber and it has made many a night out easier and more enjoyable as I know that I can get one from just about anywhere in London without having to look it up.


----------



## binka (Sep 22, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> that's a good reason NOT to use Uber or a cab app - cos you can't use cash!


You can use cash


----------



## maomao (Sep 22, 2017)

editor said:


> Because some people like the reassurance of knowing the driver's name and number plate in advance, and the reassurance of seeing their progress on a map, so they know when they're actually going to show up. It also makes sure the driver knows where you are to pick you up.
> 
> I'll take the convenience of an app over ringing up a cab office every time.


Majority of hole in the wall cab offices can do all that these days. All my locals do.


----------



## ShiftyBagLady (Sep 22, 2017)

maomao said:


> Majority of hole in the wall cab offices can do all that these days. All my locals do.


Yeah but you forget when you get off the phone, or I do at least.


----------



## Guineveretoo (Sep 22, 2017)

Maharani said:


> Did you report this?


No. Who would I have reported it to? And what would I have said?

"A cabbie I got from East Croydon station made racist remarks about my neighbours."  Unfortunately, that is not newsworthy, or even reportable. 

In fact, I am not even sure it is an offence. It would have been the Race Relations Act then, which was pretty poor at dealing with racist statements. To put it mildly.


----------



## maomao (Sep 22, 2017)

ShiftyBagLady said:


> Yeah but you forget when you get off the phone, or I do at least.


They usually tell you by text with a link to a web page with tracking.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Sep 22, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> I will always favour cash on a night out, so I can keep track of what I'm spending.


I just avoid nights out nowadays, far easier


----------



## ShiftyBagLady (Sep 22, 2017)

maomao said:


> They usually tell you by text with a link to a web page with tracking.


Your local minicab does? Times must have changed then


----------



## Gromit (Sep 22, 2017)

maomao said:


> They usually tell you by text with a link to a web page with tracking.


Webpages that are next to useless in giving an accurate real time location. When they even work.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Sep 22, 2017)

maomao said:


> They usually tell you by text with a link to a web page with tracking.



That's how it works here in Sussex too, and the local cab firm doesn't charge the rip-off commissions that Uber now takes from their drivers - although the drivers still moan about having to pay about £15 a day for their bookings. 

Gromit it gives the time down to about 30 seconds.


----------



## maomao (Sep 22, 2017)

ShiftyBagLady said:


> Your local minicab does? Times must have changed then


They have. I remember paper dockets for bookings. I live in a relatively poor part of London with several well established traditional firms and they all use Cordic despatch software. I'm sure there are pen and paper firms left but not many.


----------



## maomao (Sep 22, 2017)

Gromit said:


> Webpages that are next to useless in giving an accurate real time location. When they even work.


At worst they're on two minute updates. Most are better.


----------



## Gromit (Sep 22, 2017)

cupid_stunt said:


> It's a headline FFS, designed to grab attention, and pull you in to read the article, nowt wrong with that.


The headline is the most important part of the piece. Not only does it set the tone and overall point of the article but many never even read past the headline. There's even TV show who just read the Headlines. 

I really don't hold with this Lane duck excuse of well we might have misrepresented in the headline but we cleared it up below. Be factual the whole article and yes the headline is part of an article.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Sep 22, 2017)

Gromit said:


> The headline is the most important part of the piece.


Err, no it's not.


> Not only does it set the tone and overall point of the article but many never even read past the headline.


'Many' AKA idiots.


> There's even TV show who just read the Headlines.


For idiots. 


> I really don't hold with this Lane duck excuse of well we might have misrepresented in the headline but we cleared it up below. Be factual the whole article and yes the headline is part of an article.


Only idiots take on-board stories just by their headlines, anyone with an ounce of common sense reads the bloody article.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Sep 22, 2017)

ShiftyBagLady said:


> You've got a point but it's more dangerous to be calling a cab in the middle of nowhere where someone might see you and roll up and say they are a cab. In my cab taking days I'd spend ages waiting and calling to see why it's late, standing in the cold... my experience of cabs has not been a good one. I've not had a bad trip with uber and it has made many a night out easier and more enjoyable as I know that I can get one from just about anywhere in London without having to look it up.


I also prefer to use apps on the odd occasions I take taxis; it's all documented, you can see where the cab is and where it's heading for, it goes through to your credit card automatically and there's no bother. But uber is not the only app around and there are equivalent ones which deal with general licenced taxis.


----------



## Gromit (Sep 22, 2017)

cupid_stunt said:


> Err, no it's not.
> 
> 'Many' AKA idiots.
> 
> ...


And the world is full of idiots, which is why we have Trump and Brexit. Headline writers share most if not all of the blame.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 22, 2017)

Cloo said:


> On a personal level I am indifferent to this as I'm a bit of tightwad and don't see why I shouldn't just use public transport unless it's the middle of the night (and I have kids, so I'm not often out in the middle of the night), so I seldom use taxis and have never used Uber.



This 100%

Getting a cab anywhere is a massive extravagance for me, unless hugely pressed for time I just don't do it and always feel like a bit of a Prima Donna when I do.

But fuck uber and their snidey, shitty business model, they are race to the bottom merchants who can rim my piles.


----------



## Cloo (Sep 22, 2017)

I totally don't get people who get taxis in central London during the day at all (unless in a hurry for an appointment), like people who take them to get to a restaurant after work in the middle of town. I mean, WTF, get the fucking tube or bus! Or even.... walk.


----------



## Reiabuzz (Sep 22, 2017)

DJWrongspeed said:


> The black cabs have been moaning alot but TFL didn't do anything for a few year lets be honest.
> Uber have just not signed up to the regulations properly and let the police down also.
> 
> TFL are "Transport *FOR* London" it's in the name.
> ...



Sorry. What dangerous driving antics? I take about 5 Uber’s a week and I’ve never seen anything more dangerous than the average driver. No idea what you’re on about. The only dangerous thing about Uber drivers is they’ve disrupted what was a massive price fixing cartel. It does not, or should not cost me £40 to travel from soho to Liverpool Street. But that’s what s black cab charged me a few months back when I had no choice but to use one.

They’re fucking cunts and the sooner Uber and the like force them out the better.


----------



## Orang Utan (Sep 22, 2017)

I have to say I'm surprised at how wealthy/profligate many Urbanites seem to have become in the past 14 years.


----------



## J Ed (Sep 22, 2017)

Reiabuzz said:


> Sorry. What dangerous driving antics? I take about 5 Uber’s a week and I’ve never seen anything more dangerous than the average driver. No idea what you’re on about. The only dangerous thing about Uber drivers is they’ve disrupted what was a massive price fixing cartel. It does not, or should not cost me £40 to travel from soho to Liverpool Street. But that’s what s black cab charged me a few months back when I had no choice but to use one.
> 
> They’re fucking cunts and the sooner Uber and the like force them out the better.



Real neoliberalism in our souls stuff here


----------



## J Ed (Sep 22, 2017)

Has anyone else recently come across people who think that it is an attack on them as people if you criticise a company which they shop with? In the past couple of weeks I've had that sort of interaction when talking generally to people about Amazon and Tesco.

 I cannot get my head around these ideas. I mean fuck I use both, who doesn't but when I buy sausage rolls or whatever I'm paying for the sausages rolls, my identity is not included in that purchase.


----------



## Orang Utan (Sep 22, 2017)

People don't like it being pointed out to them that convenience and low prices result in other people being fucked over and limited resources being squandered.


----------



## J Ed (Sep 22, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> People don't like it being pointed out to them that convenience and low prices result in other people being fucked over and limited resources being squandered.



Yes. I suppose if we are being generous there are people who need to rationalise exploitation in this sort of way because acknowledging reality would cause them actual anguish so it is a form of coping mechanism. The alternative is that they just don't give a shit.


----------



## Cloo (Sep 22, 2017)

So what we've got is:

Uber good: 
- Makes direct transit much more affordable
- Easy to use and quick to arrive
- Provides employment, including for people who may be in between jobs or finding it hard to get another one, and for drivers who may be kept out of the black cab game due to their ethnicity

Uber bad:
- Screws over its drivers with its conditions (or lack of them)
- Race to the bottom for prices is not a good thing for drivers or workers in general
- Lax safety

Joys of late-stage capitalism, huh?


----------



## J Ed (Sep 22, 2017)

I think that there are some more bads there and the goods are all contingent on Uber's long term plan (becoming a monopoly and causing mass unemployment under an economic system in which you need to work to be able to live) never being realised.


----------



## sealion (Sep 22, 2017)

Teaboy said:


> As funny as it is though it must be a real worry for the drivers. If you just operate as an Uber driver where will you get your fares from if the tap is turned off?


There are plenty of cab offices still operating. Most of ubers drivers started out working from a smaller office.


----------



## sealion (Sep 22, 2017)

bimble said:


> he said never been better, how he thinks his is the best job in the world, he was playing golf that morning had a leisurely lunch etc.


He must be the lucky one. Uber have taken a big slice of the London circuit, so there is less work and a lot more taxi drivers are chucking it in.


----------



## sealion (Sep 22, 2017)

maomao said:


> In the old days companies would sanction drivers heavily for refusing a job in the wrong direction at close of play. AL and Uber changed that.


What companies did this ? The places i worked as a controller would always give a driver something "going his/hers way home. Was this a cash or account circuit ?


----------



## sealion (Sep 22, 2017)

maomao said:


> Pretty sure it's currently 75%. It was 90% when they started. 75% is way more than any other firm offers on account work.


Uber is all account work. A mini cab driver doesn't have to hand over a penny from a cash fare to his office.


----------



## DJWrongspeed (Sep 22, 2017)

Reiabuzz said:


> Sorry. What dangerous driving antics? I take about 5 Uber’s a week and I’ve never seen anything more dangerous than the average driver. No idea what you’re on about.



you're sitting in the Uber cab so no wonder you don't see it , i commute into central London 5 days a week, i see it a few times each week. U turns, dangerous stopping, bad parking, lost drivers etc this is b4 you've even got in the car remember.


----------



## sealion (Sep 22, 2017)

ffsear said:


> Sign the Petition


A company that put there prices up during a terrorist attack -London bridge-. Fuck them.


----------



## teqniq (Sep 22, 2017)

Wtf? This must be a new definition of 'broke'. If you are actually broke then you don't even entertain the idea of a cab, end of.

Banning Uber means taking London away from broke millennials like me and putting it back into the hands of the rich


----------



## sealion (Sep 22, 2017)

Crispy said:


> Have fares and service quality mandated by TfL,


Tfl set the fares for black taxis but not mini cabs.


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Sep 22, 2017)

15 pages in less than a day for a minor wrinkle in the fabric of London's truly excellent transport system.


----------



## Gramsci (Sep 22, 2017)

I talk to a few Black can drivers. One of them said to me that Uber should not have been allowed into London as it's not like an old fashioned mini cab working locally from an office. It works in central London like hailing a cab. Ive seen it in central London. People waiting on pavement looking at phone seeing nearest Uber and getting them to come and pick them up. So his argument was that Uber was the same as hailing a Black cab in effect.

I don't think this is the reason why TFL is not renewing license but from the few Black cab drivers I now that above is a major issue. It wouldn't matter so much but Uber is undercutting Black cabs. As the cabbies I know say Uber is direct competition. It's not like old type of mini cab firm. Uber isn't allowed near central London stations. Which is why so many Black cabs are seen queuing at say Paddington or Kings Cross. 

I have a lot of sympathy for Black cab drivers. The ones I know have done other delivery jobs. Being a Black cab driver is first time they have been paid well. Unlike previous jobs.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Sep 22, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> I have to say I'm surprised at how wealthy/profligate many Urbanites seem to have become in the past 14 years.


People earning more money as they get older/progress in a career is hardly a earth shattering revelation...


----------



## Orang Utan (Sep 22, 2017)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> People earning more money as they get older/progress in a career is hardly a earth shattering revelation...


People being blind to exploitation cos of convenience, and being extravagant about transport is though.
Though not all of us have earned more as they've got older


----------



## J Ed (Sep 22, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> People being blind to exploitation cos of convenience, and being extravagant about transport is though.
> Though not all of us have earned more as they've got older



Agree with this 100% and imagine that what you are talking about is exactly right, people earning more and getting increased positions of privilege leads to socially harmful opinions but sadly these sorts of views are not limited to people not in precarious employment, there are increasingly seen as common sense across society including people who are nominally on the left.

All of this of course is a function of people seeing themselves as consumers rather than workers.


----------



## agricola (Sep 22, 2017)

teqniq said:


> Wtf? This must be a new definition of 'broke'. If you are actually broke then you don't even entertain the idea of a cab, end of.
> 
> Banning Uber means taking London away from broke millennials like me and putting it back into the hands of the rich



It is remarkable that the headline actually undersells how daft the article below it is.


----------



## Tankus (Sep 22, 2017)

greyball ......?

in london ?

How Uber Deceives the Authorities Worldwide


----------



## JimW (Sep 22, 2017)

teqniq said:


> Wtf? This must be a new definition of 'broke'. If you are actually broke then you don't even entertain the idea of a cab, end of.
> 
> Banning Uber means taking London away from broke millennials like me and putting it back into the hands of the rich


So broke he popped over to Saigon to use it.


----------



## teqniq (Sep 22, 2017)

agricola said:


> It is remarkable that the headline actually undersells how daft the article below it is.


Yeah I didn't actually read it lol. I was just dumbfounded by the headline and then I thought ah maybe it's just clickbait.


----------



## sealion (Sep 22, 2017)

maomao said:


> I'm sure there are pen and paper firms left but not many.


Not any more. All jobs have to be logged through a computer system.


----------



## Dogsauce (Sep 22, 2017)

Uber being more 'affordable'/convenient just means there are now more private hire vehicles operating in London than ever, clogging the roads, getting in the way of buses, adding to pollution. In a city with the public transport infrastructure London has it should be taxed as a luxury.


----------



## Crispy (Sep 23, 2017)

sealion said:


> Tfl set the fares for black taxis but not mini cabs.


With modern technology, this is an arbitrary distinction.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Sep 23, 2017)

Dogsauce said:


> Uber being more 'affordable'/convenient just means there are now more private hire vehicles operating in London than ever, clogging the roads, getting in the way of buses, adding to pollution. In a city with the public transport infrastructure London has it should be taxed as a luxury.


Agree with this, with the minor proviso that the very small minority of people who use taxis out of need rather than convenience should of course be properly protected. But that was true long before uber existed. And the tax should be put directly into subsidising public transport, as the congestion charge is.

But yes to the basic point - if it is true that more people in London than ever are using taxis, then this isn't a good thing. It is not to be encouraged, and that's why this is something that needs to be socially managed not left to some imagined market. So I also agree with crispy that taxis should be brought under the umbrella of tfl, who would also then set the permissible numbers. If people don't like it, they can catch one of the very many buses that are provided like the rest of us somehow manage to do all the time.


----------



## Yossarian (Sep 23, 2017)

littlebabyjesus said:


> But yes to the basic point - if it is true that more people in London than ever are using taxis, then this isn't a good thing.



It is if it means people are giving up their cars or no longer driving drunk.


----------



## Gromit (Sep 23, 2017)

Yossarian said:


> It is if it means people are giving up their cars or no longer driving drunk.


And if they are doing the car pooling option they are saving the environment as well as money.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Sep 23, 2017)

Yossarian said:


> It is if it means people are giving up their cars or no longer driving drunk.


It would be but very few Londoners drive on a night out in London, even if they have cars, which most don't.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Sep 23, 2017)

Gromit said:


> And if they are doing the car pooling option they are saving the environment as well as money.


Compared with catching the bus/tube, they are doing neither.


----------



## Gromit (Sep 23, 2017)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Compared with catching the bus/tube, they are doing neither.


The tube only takes you so far then the not all bus services have Night services. 

If I waited for a bus home from Edgware I could have a 5 hour wait. I'll take an uber over that.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Sep 23, 2017)

Back in the 90s , the night bus service was awful. You could indeed take hours to get home. Wasn't pleasant. The service is miles better now. Unrecognisable really.


----------



## maomao (Sep 23, 2017)

sealion said:


> What companies did this ? The places i worked as a controller would always give a driver something "going his/hers way home. Was this a cash or account circuit ?



Account circuits. Cash drivers would just tell you to fuck off.  I'm still a controller btw. You always try to give a job home but we live in a somewhat divided city where more of the drivers live east and most of the people we drive about live west (very roughly speaking). That's not to say I would ever finish a bloke who lives in Forest Gate on a job to Twickenham on pain of losing his bonus but I've seen such things done or at least demanded by operations managers.


----------



## maomao (Sep 23, 2017)

sealion said:


> Not any more. All jobs have to be logged through a computer system.


Didn't know this. I've done it as recently as 2005.


----------



## maomao (Sep 23, 2017)

sealion said:


> Uber is all account work. A mini cab driver doesn't have to hand over a penny from a cash fare to his office.


That's why I specified account work. IME most firms take a lot less if anything from drivers on cash work these days.

Cash circuit drivers of course have to pay rent which can add up to a hefty percentage in a shit week.


----------



## NoXion (Sep 23, 2017)

teqniq said:


> Wtf? This must be a new definition of 'broke'. If you are actually broke then you don't even entertain the idea of a cab, end of.
> 
> Banning Uber means taking London away from broke millennials like me and putting it back into the hands of the rich


Broke millennial = hipster cheapskate


----------



## J Ed (Sep 23, 2017)

More than 400,000 sign petition to save Uber as firm hits back at London ban

Hands off The Brands! Bootlicking fuckers. Shame on the graunid too, putting this as the leading story on their shitty website.


----------



## maomao (Sep 23, 2017)

Gromit said:


> The tube only takes you so far then the not all bus services have Night services.
> 
> If I waited for a bus home from Edgware I could have a 5 hour wait. I'll take an uber over that.


Get a bicycle you lazy twat.


----------



## J Ed (Sep 23, 2017)

This uber ban is a really good way of ferreting out neoliberals. Uber is such an obviously disgusting company, but it is vaguely associated with cosmopolitanism and 'socially liberal' techno-futurism so the very worst in our society rally to its banner immediately.


----------



## Gromit (Sep 23, 2017)

maomao said:


> Get a bicycle you lazy twat.


I am. Sore point. I'm still waiting for my collection letter. Was hoping to have it by now. 

But I wouldn't cycle when drunk. I hate the twats that do that. I feel sorrier for the poor sod who runs them over than I do for them.


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 23, 2017)

J Ed said:


> This uber ban is a really good way of ferreting out neoliberals. Uber is such an obviously disgusting company, but it is vaguely associated with cosmopolitanism and 'socially liberal' techno-futurism so the very worst in our society rally to its banner immediately.


from comments elsewhere theres a sense that some people are gagging for a union to blame. Hence conspiracy theories like the black cab drivers running tfl


----------



## fishfinger (Sep 23, 2017)

DotCommunist said:


> from comments elsewhere theres a sense that some people are gagging for a union to blame. Hence conspiracy theories like the black cab drivers running tfl


Many black cab drivers are lizards


----------



## J Ed (Sep 23, 2017)

DotCommunist said:


> from comments elsewhere theres a sense that some people are gagging for a union to blame. Hence conspiracy theories like the black cab drivers running tfl



In the stupider parts of the internet there seems to be talk about a 'white male cartel' being behind the uber ban. Yeah, unionised taxi drivers in London are all white. I can count on one hand the amount of times I've been in London in the last two decades and I know what bollocks that is.


----------



## magneze (Sep 23, 2017)

bemused said:


> Why wouldn't they fly?


Because they can't sit up front?


----------



## sealion (Sep 23, 2017)

J Ed said:


> In the stupider parts of the internet there seems to be talk about a 'white male cartel' being behind the uber ban.


George 'gideon' osborne and his family have there fingers in the uber pie. A good enough reason on it's own to fuck them off imo. The cunts


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 23, 2017)

killer b said:


> Great stuff. Fuck 'em.



10s of thousands of redundancies. Great stuff.


----------



## TruXta (Sep 23, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> 10s of thousands of redundancies. Great stuff.


Nah, they're all self-employed.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 23, 2017)

TruXta said:


> Nah, they're all self-employed.



It'll have no effect then?


----------



## maomao (Sep 23, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> 10s of thousands of redundancies. Great stuff.


Not really true. 'Uber only' drivers are very rare. Most of them would just go back to the firms they were working at before who will be busier with Uber gone. Uber might have 'created' some extra work by selling their drivers' services particularly cheaply but that wasn't really to the benefit of drivers as a whole anyway.

Obviously there's problems with interrupting the race to the bottom half way through but that's no reason to continue the race surely?


----------



## TruXta (Sep 23, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> It'll have no effect then?


----------



## maomao (Sep 23, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> It'll have no effect then?


You're a sparky aren't you? Imagine some website had blagged three quarters of all the work in London, was handing it out at shit rates, everyone else was working for them and you had to either do the same or survive? If said website were to be threatened with closure by whatever regulator applied would you be arguing that said website should be protected from closure on the basis that it would take all the electricians a few weeks to get back to the way they were working before?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 23, 2017)

maomao said:


> Obviously there's problems with interrupting the race to the bottom half way through but that's no reason to continue the race surely?



I doubt TFL and the Mayor of London care much about that tbh.


----------



## maomao (Sep 23, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I doubt TFL and the Mayor of London care much about that tbh.


This is undeniably true.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 23, 2017)

maomao said:


> You're a sparky aren't you? Imagine some website had blagged three quarters of all the work in London, was handing it out at shit rates, everyone else was working for them and you had to either do the same or survive? If said website were to be threatened with closure by whatever regulator applied would you be arguing that said website should be protected from closure on the basis that it would take all the electricians a few weeks to get back to the way they were working before?



This already happened, kind of, when becoming self employed was made to look 'attractive' next minute you have recruitment agencies creaming off the profits and the end of the union.


----------



## maomao (Sep 23, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> This already happened, kind of, when becoming self employed was made to look 'attractive' next minute you have recruitment agencies creaming off the profits and the end of the union.



If there was a cheap app for sparkies I might get the dodgy spur I put in in my kitchen sorted out.


----------



## Orang Utan (Sep 23, 2017)

I’m glad it’s all over for Uber in London – and I work for them | Anonymous


----------



## moochedit (Sep 23, 2017)

moochedit said:


> I dont think uber have ever been licenced in coventry. I still see their cabs about with birmingham taxi licence plates though.



yep, this story below explains about it. I guess they could do the same in London if a neighbouring authority gives them a licence.

This is the danger of using Uber in Coventry, say council chiefs



> Cllr Jayne Innes, cabinet member for city services, explained the loophole which allows Uber taxis to operate within the city boundaries, and the risk that this poses.
> 
> She said: “Uber is not registered to operate in the city.
> 
> ...





> “This means we have a crazy situation where Uber drivers can get a licence in Wolverhampton but can operate in Coventry.
> 
> “This not only creates an unfair playing field for the city’s local trade but also means that the high standards we apply in Coventry are not necessarily being met.
> 
> ...


----------



## Spymaster (Sep 23, 2017)

DJWrongspeed said:


> you're sitting in the Uber cab so no wonder you don't see it , i commute into central London 5 days a week, i see it a few times each week. U turns, dangerous stopping, bad parking, lost drivers etc this is b4 you've even got in the car remember.


How do you know these are Ubers?


----------



## Orang Utan (Sep 23, 2017)

Spymaster said:


> How do you know these are Ubers?


the stickers?


----------



## maomao (Sep 23, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> the stickers?


Uber cars are unmarked. The stickers just mean minicabs. There seem to be a lot of people, like the twat in the Independent article that think Uber invented minicabs.


----------



## emanymton (Sep 23, 2017)

maomao said:


> Uber cars are unmarked. The stickers just mean minicabs. There seem to be a lot of people, like the twat in the Independent article that think Uber invented minicabs.


I've seen cars driving around marker as Uber?


----------



## maomao (Sep 23, 2017)

emanymton said:


> I've seen cars driving around marker as Uber?


Maybe. Dunno. Most of them ain't.


----------



## Orang Utan (Sep 23, 2017)

maomao said:


> Uber cars are unmarked. The stickers just mean minicabs. There seem to be a lot of people, like the twat in the Independent article that think Uber invented minicabs.


Not the ones I've seen with big Uber stickers on the door


----------



## maomao (Sep 23, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> Not the ones I've seen with big Uber stickers on the door


London or Leeds? I haven't seen that.


----------



## moochedit (Sep 23, 2017)

maomao said:


> Uber cars are unmarked. The stickers just mean minicabs. There seem to be a lot of people, like the twat in the Independent article that think Uber invented minicabs.


The ones in see in cov (with brum or wolves licences) clearly say they are uber cabs on them. Maybe it is different in london? Maybe bham council insists they are marked and london doesn't?


----------



## maomao (Sep 23, 2017)

moochedit said:


> The ones in see in cov (with brum or wolves licences) clearly say they are uber cabs on them. Maybe it is different in london? Maybe bham council insists they are marked and london doesn't?



London's only recently (about 2009) allowed company names on cars and its optional. I know in Edinburgh it's compulsory to have massive signs on the doors but the LTDA objected to it for ages in London.


----------



## Spymaster (Sep 23, 2017)

emanymton said:


> I've seen cars driving around marker as Uber?





maomao said:


> Maybe. Dunno. Most of them ain't.



Some of them have mag signs on the doors but the vast majority are unbranded. I've never been in a signed-up Uber. The branded ones seem to be slightly more prevalent outside of London.


----------



## agricola (Sep 23, 2017)

maomao said:


> London's only recently (about 2009) allowed company names on cars and its optional. I know in Edinburgh it's compulsory to have massive signs on the doors but the LTDA objected to it for ages in London.



Are you sure?  I am sure Addison Lee's cars have been marked for at least the last fifteen years.


----------



## Spymaster (Sep 23, 2017)

maomao do cab companies insure all of the cars that work on their ticket or is it the drivers responsibility to insure their motors individually?

I was in a local cab last night and the driver was banging on about Uber drivers being uninsured rapists!


----------



## maomao (Sep 23, 2017)

Spymaster said:


> maomao do cab companies insure all of the cars that work on their ticket or is it the drivers responsibility to insure their motors individually?
> 
> I was in a local cab last night and the driver was banging on about Uber drivers being uninsured rapists!


Drivers responsible for insurance. Companies responsible for keeping a copy of that insurance on record. I've never knowingly given work to an uninsured driver and would never do so.

Some companies will organise car rental and insurance for a driver but on paper this needs to be done as another company. So if you work for JB taxis you get your jobs and pay from JB Chauffeur and you get your car and insurance from JB car hire.

With reference to Uber specifically the app shuts the driver out the moment the insurance expires.


----------



## maomao (Sep 23, 2017)

I've had Uber drivers on the phone all day. Can't tell them anything except call back Monday and speak to recruitment.


----------



## maomao (Sep 23, 2017)

agricola said:


> Are you sure?  I am sure Addison Lee's cars have been marked for at least the last fifteen years.


They tried it several times before it was legal so you may have seen them. But it wasn't legal till approx 2009. Everyone knew the black Galaxies were Al cars anyway.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Sep 23, 2017)

maomao said:


> Maybe. Dunno. Most of them ain't.


Ever single Uber I've ever been in has been branded as such.


----------



## Spymaster (Sep 23, 2017)

maomao said:


> Drivers responsible for insurance. Companies responsible for keeping a copy of that insurance on record. I've never knowingly given work to an uninsured driver and would never do so.
> 
> Some companies will organise car rental and insurance for a driver but on paper this needs to be done as another company. So if you work for JB taxis you get your jobs and pay from JB Chauffeur and you get your car and insurance from JB car hire.
> 
> With reference to Uber specifically the app shuts the driver out the moment the insurance expires.


What would a driver typically pay for a years private hire insirance? Geezer last night said it was 3k a year. That's bollocks isn't it?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 23, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> 10s of thousands of redundancies. Great stuff.


0 redundancies. Look again at uber's business model.


----------



## maomao (Sep 23, 2017)

Spymaster said:


> What would a driver typically pay for a years private hire insirance? Geezer last night said it was 3k a year. That's bollocks isn't it?


It's about that. 50 odd quid a week.


----------



## Spymaster (Sep 23, 2017)

maomao said:


> It's about that. 50 odd quid a week.


Oh, ok.

This chap was saying that Uber drivers save themselves 3 grand a year by just buying regular insurance and telling their passengers to say that they're just friends of the driver if there was an accident.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 23, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> It'll have no effect then?


When I was made redundant I got a payout. Do you think Uber is issuing redundancy notices?

Your legal rights when facing redundancy


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## pengaleng (Sep 23, 2017)

fuck uber.


----------



## maomao (Sep 23, 2017)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Ever single Uber I've ever been in has been branded as such.


Birmingham? Dunno. Could be council regs could be local Uber policy. I've never even seen one in London.


----------



## maomao (Sep 23, 2017)

Spymaster said:


> Oh, ok.
> 
> This chap was saying that Uber drivers save themselves 3 grand a year by just buying regular insurance and telling their passengers to say that they're just friends of the driver if there was an accident.


That's horseshit. Would you agree to that if you were a passenger? Tfl wouldn't have given them this long if they were doing that.


----------



## Spymaster (Sep 23, 2017)

maomao said:


> That's horseshit. Would you agree to that if you were a passenger? Tfl wouldn't have given them this long if they were doing that.


Of course. That was clearly bollocks, which is why I thought the 3 grand thing was probably nonsense too. I just sat there nodding.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 23, 2017)




----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 23, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> 0 redundancies. Look again at uber's business model.



This was pointed out earlier. Slow off the mark today chap.


----------



## maomao (Sep 23, 2017)

Is the word redundancy only usable in it's strictest legal sense?

I was once given a sum of money equivalent to a redundancy payment (to the penny) and one of the conditions of me receiving it was that I didn't say to anyone that I'd been made redundant. To this day I believe that I had been made redundant though.


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## The Fornicator (Sep 23, 2017)

Gramsci said:


> I have a lot of sympathy for Black cab drivers. The ones I know have done other delivery jobs. Being a Black cab driver is first time they have been paid well. Unlike previous jobs.


So do I, although the attitude of a few lets down the majority.

I think it's important to remember very many of these drivers come from a background of poverty of education, their parents weren't educated, their grandparents weren't educated, education has not been generationally valued in the family.

More often than not, that consigns the next generation to 'local schools' and, later, low paid work. What you see with many black cab drivers is someone quite bright trying to break the cycle.

So doing the knowledge - 3 years, 5 years, whatever - is a route out of the poverty trap for people who didn't enjoy decent education; they can earn semi-skilled and even skilled income levels, at least in the past aspire to own a home, to give the children opportunities, to live  a better life.

Contrast with Uber; personally I have never met an Uber driver who could make a living not working a lot of unsocial hours. I'm not sure I've met one who isn't in denial about what they actually earn. What I have met is a surprising number of older men who would rather work for next to nothing - for the dignity of working - than face age discrimination and what they perceive to be the stigma of unemployment.

I have also met many younger family men who need a government 'top up' and just as many other younger men who share a bedroom in dorm-type houses.

It really is very, very tough out there in so many ways for unskilled men in their 50s and 60s. Blacck can prices are high, but they are mostly high relative to the indignity of the silicon valley workplace.


----------



## maomao (Sep 23, 2017)

I nodded off on the DLR today (occupational hazard, seventh 12 hour shift in 8 days) and woke up when it started moving backwards from Bow Church (part closed due to Crossrail and I hadn't checked) so I ended up getting a minicab from Uber to Stratford station from Devons Road.

Anyway Ali who drove me told me that it's modern day slavery. He works for two companies, a minicab company in Romford and Uber. If Uber hadn't shafted the cab trade in the first place he could go back to just working out of Romford. Last week he was paid eighteen pounds for driving a group of people from SE1 to Hayes which is far too cheap for the time and expense involved. He hopes they lose their license.


----------



## sealion (Sep 23, 2017)

agricola said:


> Are you sure? I am sure Addison Lee's cars have been marked for at least the last fifteen years.


They have but it wasn't legal. They payed a fine and carried on. Then the Addison Lee branded Stubber /ashtray outside pubs and clubs popped up with their number on.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Sep 23, 2017)

I don't have much time for Addison Lee, but I did laugh at this post on the bandwidthz thread, copied here for those that don't follow that thread...



DaveCinzano said:


>


----------



## Gramsci (Sep 23, 2017)

The Fornicator said:


> So do I, although the attitude of a few lets down the majority.
> 
> I think it's important to remember very many of these drivers come from a background of poverty of education, their parents weren't educated, their grandparents weren't educated, education has not been generationally valued in the family.
> 
> ...



I agree with you on poor wages.

But not on the poverty of education.

What is needed is for all work to be properly paid. The distinction between skilled and unskilled work is ideological in itself. The assumption being that so called unskilled jobs should be paid less.

Being a Black cab driver, docker or printer were all jobs that guys I know parents did. They all were for a time relatively well paid. Black cabs are the only one left.

Btw I know people in delivery and cab business with degrees. 

Its not poverty of aspiration that means people get low pay. Education isnt going to solve it.


----------



## Gramsci (Sep 24, 2017)

cupid_stunt said:


> I don't have much time for Addison Lee, but I did laugh at this post on the bandwidthz thread, copied here for those that don't follow that thread...



I know some one who used to work for AL. He gave up in the end. Paying the rental on the car and all the other expenses meant working long hours to break even.

It was insurance that got him. Driver had to pay the first £500 pounds for any damage. This is pretty standard in the industry.

The business model in cab and courier industry is to put as much of the financial risks onto the drivers as possible.


----------



## purenarcotic (Sep 24, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> I have to say I'm surprised at how wealthy/profligate many Urbanites seem to have become in the past 14 years.



You keep saying this but here in Brum it is cheaper for me to get a taxi and back to some places than it is to get the bus for two people.


----------



## The Fornicator (Sep 24, 2017)

Gramsci said:


> What is needed is for all work to be properly paid. The distinction between skilled and unskilled work is ideological in itself. The assumption being that so called unskilled jobs should be paid less.
> 
> Being a Black cab driver, docker or printer were all jobs that guys I know parents did. They all were for a time relatively well paid. Black cabs are the only one left.


This seems muddled.

In what sense are you equating 3 to 5 year knowledge learning of a Black Cab driver with the manual labour of a docker?

The reason there are no dockers and printers is because of containers and technology or, in London, docks. Even the storing and loading of containers is automated. They were well paid 'for a time' because of strong unionisation.


----------



## maomao (Sep 24, 2017)

The Fornicator said:


> This seems muddled.
> 
> In what sense are you equating 3 to 5 year knowledge learning of a Black Cab driver with the manual labour of a docker?
> 
> The reason there are no dockers and printers is because of containers and technology or, in London, docks. Even the storing and loading of containers is automated. They were well paid 'for a time' because of strong unionisation.


Last but one time I was in a black cab in London the driver wouldn't shut up about Uber drivers and how they didn't know where they were going. We were approaching Old St roundabout from the South side, headed for Euston Station  and I'd told him to take City Rd because I'd already checked the traffic on my phone. 5 minutes later we were sat in a traffic jam on Clerkenwell Rd while the black Prius that had been the object of his slagging had taken the second exit onto an empty City Rd.  'Just following his GPS' maybe but his GPS probably had up to date traffic reports whereas my dumbarse driver knew all the roads but seemed to find traffic at every turning. Cost me forty five fucking quid and I almost missed my train.

So unfortunately, a black cab driver's 3-5 years of knowledge training is becoming outclassed by technology and they don't seem so different to the dockers.

Not that I'm without sympathy for the drivers or the LTDA. Just that the knowledge doesn't mean what it did.


----------



## maomao (Sep 24, 2017)

And the last time I got a black cab (return from same trip) me, my wife and infant daughter were treated to the 'traditional London' site of a fat middle-aged cab driver with his penis out urinating up the rear side of his cab on the underground cab rank at Euston. Luvverlyjubberly.


----------



## The Fornicator (Sep 24, 2017)

maomao said:


> So unfortunately, a black cab driver's 3-5 years of knowledge training is becoming outclassed by technology and they don't seem so different to the dockers.


The real analogy is with driverless cars, in which Uber is heavily involved.

With GPS and now route selection with real-time congestion, we're part-way through the process.

It must come hard to someone who has tried hard to break out of generational poverty through years of self study.


----------



## Crispy (Sep 24, 2017)

EDIT: point already made 3 times


----------



## The Fornicator (Sep 24, 2017)

See above.


----------



## Reiabuzz (Sep 24, 2017)

maomao said:


> Last but one time I was in a black cab in London the driver wouldn't shut up about Uber drivers and how they didn't know where they were going. We were approaching Old St roundabout from the South side, headed for Euston Station  and I'd told him to take City Rd because I'd already checked the traffic on my phone. 5 minutes later we were sat in a traffic jam on Clerkenwell Rd while the black Prius that had been the object of his slagging had taken the second exit onto an empty City Rd.  'Just following his GPS' maybe but his GPS probably had up to date traffic reports whereas my dumbarse driver knew all the roads but seemed to find traffic at every turning. Cost me forty five fucking quid and I almost missed my train.
> 
> So unfortunately, a black cab driver's 3-5 years of knowledge training is becoming outclassed by technology and they don't seem so different to the dockers.
> 
> Not that I'm without sympathy for the drivers or the LTDA. Just that the knowledge doesn't mean what it did.



I think you’ll find he knew exactly what he was doing. Was the meter on perchance?


----------



## maomao (Sep 24, 2017)

Reiabuzz said:


> I think you’ll find he knew exactly what he was doing. Was the meter on perchance?


Of course the meter was on. He was actually horrifically embarrassed because I told him about himself and he ended up running up the stairs on Eversholt St with my kid in her buggy to help us get our train on time.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 24, 2017)

.


----------



## Guineveretoo (Sep 24, 2017)

Cloo said:


> I totally don't get people who get taxis in central London during the day at all (unless in a hurry for an appointment), like people who take them to get to a restaurant after work in the middle of town. I mean, WTF, get the fucking tube or bus! Or even.... walk.



I used to get upset at sentiments like this being expressed.

When I worked in central London I often got taxis because I am disabled and struggle to walk distances, or even to walk short distances quickly and, even more so, to manage stairs. 

I also struggle to stand on tubes and buses, and they are often crowded in central London, and not just in the rush hour. 

Some tube stations have really long walks within them, and many have lots of stairs. There were occasions where I was in considerable pain climbing stairs to get around tube stations, and sometimes I was late for the meeting because it took me so long to get up and down those stairs and along those long walks. 

Eventually, and after quite a battle with my employer who felt like you, and sought to ignore the provisions of the Equality Act, or to care about their employees, I had an agreement that I could get cabs. Although I still had to justify it, in writing, every single time.

Sometimes, colleagues who were not disabled would travel around central London carrying a promotional banner and boxes of files and papers. They got taxis as well.

Black cabs, although prolific in Central London, are not good for people like me because they are really difficult to get in and out of.

If Uber had existed then, I would have used them!


----------



## Orang Utan (Sep 24, 2017)

purenarcotic said:


> You keep saying this but here in Brum it is cheaper for me to get a taxi and back to some places than it is to get the bus for two people.


It can be cheaper in Leeds too, but I'm talking about London


----------



## Guineveretoo (Sep 24, 2017)

I got an Uber yesterday morning from my house to the station. I had little choice, since this was so early in the morning that there were no buses running. 

There is no night bus service where I live, even though it is London, and there is no tube. 

i asked the driver what he thought about the announcement they day before and he just shrugged and said he would work for someone else.

i got a bus home last night, from the station, because I was paying for myself and, although I was exhausted after a long day, Uber doubled their price because it was a Saturday night, and high demand, so I went and waited for a bus instead. Luckily, I only had to wait less than 10 minutes, and got a seat. 

If my back and knees had been bad, though, I would have really struggled, because there is no seat the bus stop near the station. 

There have been times when I have stood at that stop for ages and then, when the bus comes, it is too crowded and I can't get on it. One time recently, when this happened, I was in so much pain from standing around, that I just burst into tears. And ordered an Uber that came in two minutes.


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## cupid_stunt (Sep 24, 2017)

> Uber signalled last night that it was prepared to make concessions on safety and treating its drivers as employees as it battled to rescue its business in London.
> 
> Speaking to The Sunday Times, Tom Elvidge, Uber’s general manager in London, appealed directly to TfL and the city’s mayor, Sadiq Khan, saying: “We’d like to know what we can do . . . to sit down and work together to get this right.”
> 
> ...



No surprise there, I expect something will be worked out, resulting in better conditions for drivers & passengers alike.


----------



## Gramsci (Sep 24, 2017)

The Fornicator said:


> The real analogy is with driverless cars, in which Uber is heavily involved.
> 
> With GPS and now route selection with real-time congestion, we're part-way through the process.
> 
> It must come hard to someone who has tried hard to break out of generational poverty through years of self study.



Generational poverty wasn't broken by individual self study. It was the post war Labour government.

Middle aged man I know. Born and bred Londoner. Worked on markets and van delivery now. He remembers his grandmother telling him of the dire poverty her family lived in London. His parents had it better. Council housing, NHS - the post war welfare state. He got his Council house. For his generation this was looking like a social right. Its not just about wages it's also about social rights. 

This went with Thatcher.


----------



## Gramsci (Sep 24, 2017)

The Fornicator said:


> This seems muddled.
> 
> In what sense are you equating 3 to 5 year knowledge learning of a Black Cab driver with the manual labour of a docker?
> 
> The reason there are no dockers and printers is because of containers and technology or, in London, docks. Even the storing and loading of containers is automated. They were well paid 'for a time' because of strong unionisation.



I'm equating it from chatting to old guys who used to work in these jobs.

I remember a guy who used to work as a porter in the old Covent Garden. Years ago when it was a fruit and veg in Covent Garden. He said they were racking it in. The wages plus the various tolerated scams they did.

So these jobs did equate with working as Black Cab driver. For a short period.

I was helping a van driver I know in Canary wharf. He told me that he grew up there and now it's changed completely now. A lot of the men he grew up with ended up in and out of prison. Once the lucrative dockers jobs went bank robbing etc became another career option.


----------



## The Fornicator (Sep 24, 2017)

Gramsci said:


> Generational poverty wasn't broken by individual self study. It was the post war Labour government.
> 
> Middle aged man I know. Born and bred Londoner. Worked on markets and van delivery now. He remembers his grandmother telling him of the dire poverty her family lived in London. His parents had it better. Council housing, NHS - the post war welfare state. He got his Council house. For his generation this was looking like a social right. Its not just about wages it's also about social rights.
> 
> This went with Thatcher.


I'm sorry but generational poverty is not broken. I see it, I work with it, every day in Bermondsey.

You appear to be referring to a social contract, I'm not sure it's helpful in the context of my points. Much of the purpose of 'self improvement' is/was to break from state provided reliance. They aspire to the suburbs and smaller class sizes, to self determination and opportunity. These people do not aspire to a better  council flat.


----------



## binka (Sep 24, 2017)

One of the big taxi companies in Manchester is called Street Cars and turns out they have an app that works similar to Uber. Will give them a go for a bit see how it compares.


----------



## Gramsci (Sep 24, 2017)

The Fornicator said:


> I'm sorry but generational poverty is not broken. I see it, I work with it, every day in Bermondsey.
> 
> You appear to be referring to a social contract, I'm not sure it's helpful in the context of my points. Much of the purpose of 'self improvement' is/was to break from state provided reliance. They aspire to the suburbs and smaller class sizes, to self determination and opportunity. These people do not aspire to a better  council flat.



It's not helpful because you are right wing. Take a look at what your saying it's Thatcherite.

As has been posted on this thread further up this kind of stuff is so normalised now that people who come out with it don't see it as right wing.


----------



## Cloo (Sep 24, 2017)

Totally fair point Guineveretoo - I know I might not know if someone using cabs was doing so due to disability (although all the people I know of doing it don't have any).  I can appreciate that cheaper cab usage would be a godsend for those for whom public transport is sadly not a goer.


----------



## Gramsci (Sep 24, 2017)

Guineveretoo said:


> Black cabs, although prolific in Central London, are not good for people like me because they are really difficult to get in and out of.
> 
> m!



Is that still the case? The new boring looking Black Cabs have big side doors with a built in ramp. I would have thought they are better for people with disabilities than the ubititious Uber Prius in central London.

On technology. Apps are great. So is automation. I read Marx Capital volume one and he says that the increase in productivity by mechanisation can at least reduce the working week. Eventually abolish wage slavery.

The problem still exists that this technology is in the hands of capitalists.

Things like apps could be used to make transport a lot easier for people with disabilities. If we lived in economy under democratic control.

Really now my mates in courier and cab industry should not be working fifty or sixty hours a week to make a living.

My problem with Uber is more to do with the downward push on wages and conditions. That is how my Black Cab friends see it when I talk to them. The Black Cab industry is regulated- in the workers favour. Unlike Uber.


----------



## maomao (Sep 24, 2017)

Gramsci said:


> Is that still the case? The new boring looking Black Cabs have big side doors with a built in ramp. I would have thought they are better for people with disabilities than the ubititious Uber Prius in central London.


Black cabs are better for wheelchairs. Standard saloons are better than black cabs for bad backs and hip problems (because you can sit straight down rather than having to bend over and walk in). All as a rule of thumb of course, individuals may have their own preferences.


----------



## William of Walworth (Sep 24, 2017)

I've never hired an Uber-vehicle. I've been reading about all this loads though, since Friday.

When I lived in London, I only ever took black cabs when sharing with two or three others. That need was rare.

I'm right now aware that there are shedloads of people signing petitions to object to TFL's decision against Uber. Unions seem entirely in support of the decision though. I'm obviously aware as well that many Uber drivers are unhappy -- but how unhappy are they with Uber, rather than with TFL? Have they asked themselves that? Cop on.

But I just want to say fuck Uber basically. Uber could regain their licence to operate *VERY EASILY* -- make all your drivers* contracted employees*. Like the Enmployment Tribunal's already ruled.

Drop *THAT* appeal, against the tribunal, , and *also* wipe out that Greyball shit, and you could equally easily get around needing to appeal against TFL's decision at all. Negotiation would be there for the asking.

Piece of piss, you capitalist cunts 

(Apologies for getting in on the very end of this thread -- I haven't time to read it  )


----------



## William of Walworth (Sep 24, 2017)

Gramsci said:


> My problem with Uber is more to do with the downward push on wages and conditions. That is how my Black Cab friends see it when I talk to them. The Black Cab industry is regulated- in the workers favour. Unlike Uber.



  Spot on!


----------



## The Fornicator (Sep 24, 2017)

Gramsci said:


> It's not helpful because you are right wing. Take a look at what your saying it's Thatcherite.
> 
> As has been posted on this thread further up this kind of stuff is so normalised now that people who come out with it don't see it as right wing.


Don't be a clown. What's 'normalised' is generational poverty - something you seem to believe was ended by Clem Atlee. Do me a normalised fucking favour.


----------



## Gramsci (Sep 24, 2017)

The Fornicator said:


> Don't be a clown. What's 'normalised' is generational poverty - something you seem to believe was ended by Clem Atlee. Do me a normalised fucking favour.



What's normalised is attitudes like yours about people who are poor pulling themselves up by there own bootstraps and not relying on the state.

It's Thatcherite.

It's hardly radical to see that post war the working class gained from NHS and Council housing. 

It's Thatcher who put an end to this.


----------



## Guineveretoo (Sep 24, 2017)

Gramsci said:


> Is that still the case? The new boring looking Black Cabs have big side doors with a built in ramp. I would have thought they are better for people with disabilities than the ubititious Uber Prius in central London.
> 
> On technology. Apps are great. So is automation. I read Marx Capital volume one and he says that the increase in productivity by mechanisation can at least reduce the working week. Eventually abolish wage slavery.
> 
> ...


Yes, it is still the case. You have to bend over and then step up to get into a black cab. For someone with a bad back, and/or bad knees, that is difficult.

Getting out is even harder - I really struggle to get out of a black cab and it is always really painful.

I am sure everyone would agree about the need to regulate Uber, and to support the unions in their fight to get the drivers recognised as employees so that they get employment rights.

I have friends who drive black cabs as well, but many of those have to work silly hours to make a living, because of the cost of renting or buying the cab itself. Most black cab drivers are not legally classed as workers either, let alone employees, so have no security or employment rights, and no chance of getting any, since they are regulated on an individual basis only.


----------



## Guineveretoo (Sep 24, 2017)

Cloo said:


> Totally fair point Guineveretoo - I know I might not know if someone using cabs was doing so due to disability (although all the people I know of doing it don't have any).  I can appreciate that cheaper cab usage would be a godsend for those for whom public transport is sadly not a goer.


What you said is that you couldn't understand why anyone would get cabs in Central London. As well as people like me who are disabled, I can think of lots of other reasons why people would get cabs.

Public transport in London is not as accessible as it could/should be, and that is to our shame. 

When i was in Barcelona recently, I was struck by how every single subway station had lifts from the street and to every level. No stairs at all, I know the London system is the oldest in the world, but to be so appallingly inaccessible - to have so many stairs and so few lifts - is just dreadful.


----------



## Gramsci (Sep 24, 2017)

Guineveretoo said:


> Yes, it is still the case. You have to bend over and then step up to get into a black cab. For someone with a bad back, and/or bad knees, that is difficult.
> 
> Getting out is even harder - I really struggle to get out of a black cab and it is always really painful.
> 
> ...



Black Cab drivers are classified as self employed. But they have more rights than say an Uber or Addison Lee driver in practice over how there industry is run.  What they charge is not arbitary either. From what I've been told prices are set.

As I said before a main criticism of Uber is that it's the same, in central London , as hailing a cab. Black Cabs are only cabs allowed to pick up paassengers without pre booking. Why there have been arguments about length of time to book a Uber and it's arrival. It's direct competition and has hit Black Cab drivers.


----------



## Dogsauce (Sep 24, 2017)

Guineveretoo said:


> When i was in Barcelona recently, I was struck by how every single subway station had lifts from the street and to every level. No stairs at all, I know the London system is the oldest in the world, but to be so appallingly inaccessible - to have so many stairs and so few lifts - is just dreadful.



They were making quite good progress on this, then Boris happened. It's fucking embarrassingly bad in so many places, I know how hard it is with a lightweight collapsible baby buggy, it must be ten times worse for a wheelchair user.


----------



## Guineveretoo (Sep 24, 2017)

Dogsauce said:


> They were making quite good progress on this, then Boris happened. It's fucking embarrassingly bad in so many places, I know how hard it is with a lightweight collapsible baby buggy, it must be ten times worse for a wheelchair user.


Most of the network is impossible for a wheelchair user! 

It's difficult for people with mobility problems, but just impossible for many people.


----------



## kabbes (Sep 25, 2017)

I think that spending my whole working life in an incredibly highly regulated industry has given me no sympathy with uber on this whatsoever.  When we make plans at work, our first, second and third thoughts are always on whether it meets the regulations and how we can explain it to and get it past the regulator.  No regulator approval, no business.  If you want to operate in a regulated environment, that's how you have to approach it.  You can't just do what you want and then whine when the regulator sanctions you.


----------



## redsquirrel (Sep 25, 2017)

kabbes said:


> I think that spending my whole working life in an incredibly highly regulated industry has given me no sympathy with uber on this whatsoever.  When we make plans at work, our first, second and third thoughts are always on whether it meets the regulations and how we can explain it to and get it past the regulator.  No regulator approval, no business.  If you want to operate in a regulated environment, that's how you have to approach it.  You can't just do what you want and then whine when the regulator sanctions you.


And lets be clear this whine is a deliberate tactic to attack regulations and undermine conditions.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Sep 25, 2017)

kabbes said:


> I think that spending my whole working life in an incredibly highly regulated industry has given me no sympathy with uber on this whatsoever.  When we make plans at work, our first, second and third thoughts are always on whether it meets the regulations and how we can explain it to and get it past the regulator.  No regulator approval, no business.  If you want to operate in a regulated environment, that's how you have to approach it.  You can't just do what you want and then whine when the regulator sanctions you.


 
 It's okay though, Uber are willing to discuss this with TfL- I am sure you would tell a grateful  FCA that you may be willing to discuss a compromise should your product fail to meet the regulations.   

Sadly this is not exceptional - we see this all the time with wealthy aggressive corporations


----------



## killer b (Sep 25, 2017)

reading this piece this morning, seems pretty comprehensive

http://www.londonreconnections.com/2017/understanding-uber-not-app/


----------



## kabbes (Sep 25, 2017)

killer b said:


> reading this piece this morning, seems pretty comprehensive
> 
> http://www.londonreconnections.com/2017/understanding-uber-not-app/


That's an interesting article, full of stuff that I didn't know.


----------



## redsquirrel (Sep 25, 2017)

Good pithy summary of much of the debate from that piece


> – because being an innovative startup is ‘sexy’. Being a large company ignoring the rules isn’t.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Sep 25, 2017)

Guineveretoo said:


> What you said is that you couldn't understand why anyone would get cabs in Central London. As well as people like me who are disabled, I can think of lots of other reasons why people would get cabs.
> *
> Public transport in London is not as accessible as it could/should be, and that is to our shame. *
> 
> When i was in Barcelona recently, I was struck by how every single subway station had lifts from the street and to every level. No stairs at all, I know the London system is the oldest in the world, but to be so appallingly inaccessible - to have so many stairs and so few lifts - is just dreadful.



Compared to the rest of the UK London public transport is a sacred Eden, a miracle of convenience, a benchmark of quality.

Thats not a defence of London transport, just a sign of how bloody awful the network is outside of the capital. I would not want to take a pram or a wheelchair on the tube at just about any time of day.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Sep 25, 2017)

i am quite surprised at the petition on this - its quite telling how easily people are flogged a bisaed narrative and back (for what a petition is worth) the premise without maybe digesting the full story- 750k so far. we really are a wretched country


----------



## Guineveretoo (Sep 25, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> Not the ones I've seen with big Uber stickers on the door


I have never seen that. And I am a fairly prolific Uber user


----------



## Guineveretoo (Sep 25, 2017)

Spymaster said:


> Oh, ok.
> 
> This chap was saying that Uber drivers save themselves 3 grand a year by just buying regular insurance and telling their passengers to say that they're just friends of the driver if there was an accident.


They would not be able to do that with Uber because of the app. A private hire company might be able to get away with that, if it didn't electronically record journeys and passengers, but there is no way Uber drivers could do this. 

Added to which, the cars themselves are licensed - they have stickers in the window in London to show that - and that requires them to have the right insurance amongst other things.


----------



## killer b (Sep 25, 2017)

not-bono-ever said:


> i am quite surprised at the petition on this - its quite telling how easily people are flogged a bisaed narrative and back (for what a petition is worth) the premise without maybe digesting the full story- 750k so far. we really are a wretched country


A million people petitioned the BBC to reinstate Clarkson after he was sacked for assaulting a colleague. There's a lot of wankers in the world.


----------



## Guineveretoo (Sep 25, 2017)

not-bono-ever said:


> i am quite surprised at the petition on this - its quite telling how easily people are flogged a bisaed narrative and back (for what a petition is worth) the premise without maybe digesting the full story- 750k so far. we really are a wretched country


That's not that many if they really have 3.5 million users and 40,000 drivers in London


----------



## kabbes (Sep 25, 2017)

The link from killer b earlier questions where this 40,000 number has come from, pointing out that by Uber's own optimistic projection, they actually have 25,000 drivers at most.


----------



## ricbake (Sep 25, 2017)




----------



## xenon (Sep 25, 2017)

kabbes said:


> The link from killer b earlier questions where this 40,000 number has come from, pointing out that by Uber's own optimistic projection, they actually have 25,000 drivers at most.



Also, I don't believe 3 million people in London have used Uber. It was reported as 3 million people, not 3 million journeys last week.

This Grey Balling thing too. Nice bit of obscurantist jargan. It's deliberate thwarting of the regulator's inspectorate by providing false information to the inspectors.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Sep 25, 2017)

kabbes said:


> The link from killer b earlier questions where this 40,000 number has come from, pointing out that by Uber's own optimistic projection, they actually have 25,000 drivers at most.



My understanding is that the 40,000 figure is in respect of the number of drivers across the UK, with certainly well over half of those being in London.


----------



## kabbes (Sep 25, 2017)

cupid_stunt said:


> My understanding is that the 40,000 figure is in respect of the number of drivers across the UK, with certainly well over half of those being in London.


That would be consistent with 25,000 then.

So it's totally misleading for them to be saying that 40,000 jobs are at threat, then.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Sep 25, 2017)

kabbes said:


> That would be consistent with 25,000 then.
> 
> So it's totally misleading for them to be saying that 40,000 jobs are at threat, then.



Well, it's spin, innit. 

I guess they could justify it by claiming that other licencing authorities could follow TfL and not renew their operating licences in other areas of the UK, therefore all drivers are at risk.


----------



## sealion (Sep 25, 2017)

If you have signed up for uber thay still count you as a driver. It may have been two years ago and you only worked briefly for them.


----------



## kabbes (Sep 25, 2017)

cupid_stunt said:


> Well, it's spin, innit.
> 
> I guess they could justify it by claiming that other licencing authorities could follow TfL and not renew their operating licences in other areas of the UK, therefore all drivers are at risk.


That's a real push.  You can come up with "what if" scenarios for everything.  Uber are risking ALL cab drivers being out of work with their investment in self-driving cafes, for example.


----------



## killer b (Sep 25, 2017)

kabbes said:


> So it's totally misleading for them to be saying that 40,000 jobs are at threat, then.


Launching an appeal against a licence revocation which is partly because of their record for deception with an actual load of lies seems like a bold move.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Sep 25, 2017)

ricbake said:


> View attachment 116427



that reads like something Richard Branson would have come out with. urgh


----------



## Raheem (Sep 25, 2017)

kabbes said:


> self-driving cafes



I want one!


----------



## kabbes (Sep 25, 2017)

Raheem said:


> I want one!


All future tech ideas should be generated by incorrectly auto-corrected typos on phones.  Phones are much more imaginative than people, clearly.  A self-driving cafe is a brilliant notion.


----------



## teqniq (Sep 25, 2017)

not-bono-ever said:


> i am quite surprised at the petition on this - its quite telling how easily people are flogged a bisaed narrative and back (for what a petition is worth) the premise without maybe digesting the full story- 750k so far. we really are a wretched country


I think part of the reason is that people don't realise that Uber is in effect a multinational corporation that has managed to portray itself as an innovative tech startup, as has already been noted. Of course you're going to get plenty of people for whom the bottom line is that it's cheaper that traditional cabs but I wish more people would read around before supporting stuff like this.


----------



## editor (Sep 25, 2017)

Interesting piece here: Understanding Uber: It's Not About The App - London Reconnections


----------



## kabbes (Sep 25, 2017)

editor said:


> Interesting piece here: Understanding Uber: It's Not About The App - London Reconnections


Within the last 20-odd posts:


killer b said:


> reading this piece this morning, seems pretty comprehensive
> 
> http://www.londonreconnections.com/2017/understanding-uber-not-app/


It's what we've been responding to in the last 20 posts.


----------



## editor (Sep 25, 2017)

kabbes said:


> Within the last 20-odd posts:
> It's what we've been responding to in the last 20 posts.


Sorry - it only just came up in my feed.


----------



## Dogsauce (Sep 25, 2017)

kabbes said:


> All future tech ideas should be generated by incorrectly auto-corrected typos on phones.  Phones are much more imaginative than people, clearly.



Not a tech idea, but I once fumbled the typing of 'toastie' and whatever combination I manage to hit (strangely I was unable to replicate this) got autocorrected to 'tortoise'. Of course, I then had to take on the mission of making a 'cheese tortoise' out of half an Edam with a shell pattern carved into the wax and babybels for limbs/head.


----------



## agricola (Sep 25, 2017)

kabbes said:


> That would be consistent with 25,000 then.
> 
> So it's totally misleading for them to be saying that 40,000 jobs are at threat, then.



Well yes, but then it was totally misleading for them to say that 3.5 million Londoners relied on Uber to get around the city.


----------



## Raheem (Sep 25, 2017)

kabbes said:


> All future tech ideas should be generated by incorrectly auto-corrected typos on phones.  Phones are much more imaginative than people, clearly.  A self-driving cafe is a brilliant notion.



Will we ever know how many tech innovations started out with a simple auto-correct error, leading to can-do blue-sky sessions and feelers out to the industry? By lunchtime, the boss's fury is somewhat tempered by the half a billion dollars of investment capital that has suddenly been pledged.


----------



## maomao (Sep 25, 2017)

Addison Lee wrongly classed drivers as self-employed, tribunal rules

Addison Lee drivers (who are almost exactly like Uber drivers, Uber did not invent minicabs) have been found not to be self-employed. Following on from cases against Uber and City Sprint this is pretty big news in the transport industry.


----------



## maomao (Sep 25, 2017)

William of Walworth said:


> Uber could regain their licence to operate *VERY EASILY* -- make all your drivers* contracted employees*. Like the Enmployment Tribunal's already ruled.


The TFL ruling has literally nothing to do with the employment status of Uber drivers.


----------



## The Fornicator (Sep 25, 2017)

Yep, this is a licensing issue, not a worker-status issue.

I have to say Uber have shown their bullying nature with this reactive nonsense about 'jobs' at risk and people 'relying' on their minicab app.

Why make a huge drama out of it; all Uber has to do is properly comply with the regs like every other operator in London. You can't make your own rules up because you think you're too big to be challenged.


----------



## agricola (Sep 25, 2017)

maomao said:


> The TFL ruling has literally nothing to do with the employment status of Uber drivers.



Which is the worrying thing about the TFL ruling.


----------



## agricola (Sep 25, 2017)

Raheem said:


> Will we ever know how many tech innovations started out with a simple auto-correct error, leading to can-do blue-sky sessions and feelers out to the industry? By lunchtime, the boss's fury is somewhat tempered by the half a billion dollars of investment capital that has suddenly been pledged.



the pre-Reformation Catholic Church wants its idea back


----------



## The Fornicator (Sep 25, 2017)

agricola said:


> Which is the worrying thing about the TFL ruling.


The worrying thing would have been if TfL continued the policy of Mayor Johnson in turning a blind eye, for whatever reasons.

Assuming you believe in equality under the law.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 25, 2017)

The Fornicator said:


> The worrying thing would have been if TfL continued the policy of Mayor Johnson in turning a blind eye, for whatever reasons.
> 
> Assuming you believe in equality under the law.


Continued the policy of Boris Johnson. The habit of prefixing surnames with the person's job title is as lamentable as it is widespread and perhaps reached its nadir thus far on the last series of strictly when Robert Rinder was referred to throughout as judge despite only playing that role on TV.


----------



## The Fornicator (Sep 25, 2017)

You mean like in Dickhead Pickman?


----------



## sealion (Sep 25, 2017)

The Fornicator said:


> I have to say Uber have shown their bullying nature with this reactive nonsense about 'jobs' at risk


There will be no jobs if uber stick around and manage to see out their plan to eradicate any competition, just driverless cars.


----------



## Dogsauce (Sep 25, 2017)

maomao said:


> Addison Lee wrongly classed drivers as self-employed, tribunal rules
> 
> Addison Lee drivers (who are almost exactly like Uber drivers, Uber did not invent minicabs) have been found not to be self-employed. Following on from cases against Uber and City Sprint this is pretty big news in the transport industry.



Addison Lee were big Tory donors weren't they? Supported Boris, presumably thinking it would help them get away with shit like this.  That and the driving in bus lanes thing from a few years ago. Cunts.


----------



## agricola (Sep 25, 2017)

The Fornicator said:


> The worrying thing would have been if TfL continued the policy of Mayor Johnson in turning a blind eye, for whatever reasons.
> 
> Assuming you believe in equality under the law.



They have continued the policy of turning a blind eye, though - and its worse now because (when they drew up that notice withdrawing the licence) TFL had one (and now have two) legal decisions confirming that the business model Uber and AL have been using is illegal.


----------



## Gramsci (Sep 25, 2017)

Dogsauce said:


> Addison Lee were big Tory donors weren't they? Supported Boris, presumably thinking it would help them get away with shit like this.  That and the driving in bus lanes thing from a few years ago. Cunts.



The boss of AL did start slagging off Black Cab drivers a few years ago. Including telling his drivers that if they went into the bus lanes he would bsck them up when they were fined. His attitude being that Black Cab drivers were the dinosaurs of the cab industry with all there "restrictive" practices that should be done away with to allow proper free competition. 

He shut up. His drivers weren't keen. 

Then Uber came along and the free competitive market wasn't so great any more. AL suffered.


----------



## The Fornicator (Sep 25, 2017)

agricola said:


> They have continued the policy of turning a blind eye


How so? This is exactly the occasion to confront Uber.


----------



## Gramsci (Sep 25, 2017)

The limitation of TFL regulation is that it is not about employment practices.

It's why Cab drivers in public go on about Uber not being safe etc. It's the only way realistically to undermine Uber.

I would like to see regulation extended to make sure the people working in the industry had proper conditions of work.

In the gig economy favour I know people who work for Uber Eats and Stuart. Who have worked in the more traditional courier business. With these new ones you can literally log on and off when you want. Work the shifts you want. A lot of the more traditional courier companies want u there doing a full week. Plus being flexible in busy periods like up to Christmas. Ie coming in early and finishing late. Otherwise you are out.

Chatting to someone I know in one of the more traditional ones. In summer told his company he was taking two weeks off. ( Summer is always slack). Was told if he did that not to bother coming back as it was not convenient for them. They would get someone who wouldn't take time off.

It doesn't always work in courier company favour. The biggest moan from courier companies is not having " reliable" people. Despite them not taking on people as employees.


----------



## killer b (Sep 25, 2017)

sealion said:


> There will be no jobs if uber stick around and manage to see out their plan to eradicate any competition, just driverless cars.


that's going to happen whether Uber stick around or not tbf.


----------



## agricola (Sep 25, 2017)

The Fornicator said:


> How so? This is exactly the occasion to confront Uber.



Of course it is, but if TFL are going to genuinely confront them then why leave unmentioned the fact that they have been employing tens of thousands of people illegally and deriving a commercial advantage as a result?


----------



## Santino (Sep 25, 2017)

agricola said:


> Of course it is, but if TFL are going to genuinely confront them then why leave unmentioned the fact that they have been employing tens of thousands of people illegally and deriving a commercial advantage as a result?


Because they need their case to be legally watertight. They don't have the authority to rule on Uber's business model.


----------



## paolo (Sep 25, 2017)

agricola said:


> if TFL are going to genuinely confront them



?? They’ve refused the license. Is that not confronting them?


----------



## The Fornicator (Sep 25, 2017)

agricola said:


> Of course it is, but if TFL are going to genuinely confront them then why leave unmentioned the fact that they have been employing tens of thousands of people illegally and deriving a commercial advantage as a result?


Because it has nothing to do with the terms of the licence to operate: the council inspects a restaurant but it's not concerned with employment classification.

Fwiw, it's not as if Uber was the only company playing that game, it's been going on for decades i.e. predating TfL itself.

I'm unclear what this has to do with your point of TfL continuing to turn a blind eye under Mayor Khan  (when it clearly hasn't).


----------



## sealion (Sep 25, 2017)

killer b said:


> that's going to happen whether Uber stick around or not tbf.


That's a fact sadly but the noise coming from uber to gain public support is all about job potential losses. They could have come up with a better lie than that.
Uber makes key acquisition – job losses predicted


----------



## agricola (Sep 25, 2017)

The Fornicator said:


> Because it has nothing to do with the terms of the licence to operate: the council inspects a restaurant but it's not concerned with employment classification.
> 
> Fwiw, it's not as if Uber was the only company playing that game, it's been going on for decades i.e. predating TfL itself.
> 
> I'm unclear what this has to do with your point of TfL continuing to turn a blind eye under Mayor Khan  (when it clearly hasn't).



er - councils are concerned with who restaurants employ and can (and do) refuse licences when they employ people illegally. 

The point I was making was that of all the faults that Uber have displayed since they arrived in London, TFL appear to have selected the four that it would be easiest for Uber to resolve as reasons why Uber's licence should be withdrawn.  It is as if they want a token surrender and then everyone can go back to how things were.


----------



## agricola (Sep 25, 2017)

Santino said:


> Because they need their case to be legally watertight. They don't have the authority to rule on Uber's business model.



It wouldn't be the business model they would be ruling on, it would be whether they had implemented the decision in that Court case last October.


----------



## The Fornicator (Sep 25, 2017)

I'm unclear, are you still saying TfL is legally concerned with the working relationship as between Uber and its drivers?


----------



## Raheem (Sep 26, 2017)

agricola said:


> The point I was making was that of all the faults that Uber have displayed since they arrived in London, TFL appear to have selected the four that it would be easiest for Uber to resolve as reasons why Uber's licence should be withdrawn.  It is as if they want a token surrender and then everyone can go back to how things were.



More likely they are the four that clearly fall within TFL's remit. They can't take Uber's licence away on the grounds that they have exercised their right to appeal.

OTOH, probably Uber will make an offer to resolve the issues that led to the decision and will then get their licence renewed. But that's systematic, not a conspiracy.


----------



## agricola (Sep 26, 2017)

The Fornicator said:


> I'm unclear, are you still saying TfL is legally concerned with the working relationship as between Uber and its drivers?



No, I am saying that TFL *should* be legally concerned if Uber have been found to be breaking the law with respect to how it employs its drivers.


----------



## maomao (Sep 26, 2017)

agricola said:


> No, I am saying that TFL *should* be legally concerned if Uber have been found to be breaking the law with respect to how it employs its drivers.


There is absolutely nothing unique about how Uber employs its drivers. In fact if anything working for Uber is closer to genuine self employment than working for Addison Lee or any of the others. If TFL brought that into its judgement then it would have to apply to everyone.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Sep 26, 2017)

Plus the fact that if the drivers are employed or self-employed has not actually been settled yet, Uber's Employment Appeal Tribunal hearing starts tomorrow. 

TBH the ruling that they drivers are employed surprised me, because as maomao says it's standard across the industry, certainly the cab drivers I know are all self-employed. 

This is the advice from HMRC:



> Someone is probably self-employed and shouldn’t be paid through PAYE if most of the following are true:
> 
> they’re in business for themselves, are responsible for the success or failure of their business and can make a loss or a profit
> they can decide what work they do and when, where or how to do it
> ...



Most of which apply to the drivers I know, and I assume to Uber drivers too, so the appeal is going to be interesting.


----------



## maomao (Sep 26, 2017)

cupid_stunt said:


> Plus the fact that if the drivers are employed or self-employed has not actually been settled yet, Uber's Employment Appeal Tribunal hearing starts tomorrow.
> 
> TBH the ruling that they drivers are employed surprised me, because as maomao says it's standard across the industry, certainly the cab drivers I know are all self-employed.
> 
> ...



Most of that doesn't apply to most Uber drivers. But it does apply to most minicab drivers (IME/O) and to a significant minority of Uber drivers.


----------



## redsquirrel (Sep 26, 2017)

Santino said:


> Because they need their case to be legally watertight. They don't have the authority to rule on Uber's business model.


Which is part of the problem.


----------



## The Fornicator (Sep 26, 2017)

Which isn't a problem because you haven't explained why it is.


----------



## agricola (Sep 26, 2017)

maomao said:


> There is absolutely nothing unique about how Uber employs its drivers. In fact if anything working for Uber is closer to genuine self employment than working for Addison Lee or any of the others. *If TFL brought that into its judgement then it would have to apply to everyone.*



That is the thing though, it *should* apply to everyone.


----------



## agricola (Sep 26, 2017)

cupid_stunt said:


> Plus the fact that if the drivers are employed or self-employed has not actually been settled yet, Uber's Employment Appeal Tribunal hearing starts tomorrow.
> 
> TBH the ruling that they drivers are employed surprised me, because as maomao says it's standard across the industry, certainly the cab drivers I know are all self-employed



If you mean black cabs, then they are genuinely self-employed - they pass all the tests in the HMRC link.  Uber (and AL) drivers are not (and do not) - as those employment tribunals found (and it certainly will be interesting to see how they argue that appeal given that they've gone round the media all week saying how "their" drivers are all going to lose their jobs).


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 26, 2017)

Chatted to a couple of Uber drivers over the weekend.  Neither seemed bothered in the slightest, they reckoned they could get work elsewhere.


----------



## maomao (Sep 26, 2017)

agricola said:


> That is the thing though, it *should* apply to everyone.


I'm in two minds about this being in the industry. I absolutely agree that worker status should be given as a minimum but there are drivers who treat it as a business, far more than there used to be, and I think they should be allowed to register as self-employed if they think it's to their advantage.


----------



## maomao (Sep 26, 2017)

agricola said:


> If you mean black cabs, then they are genuinely self-employed - they pass all the tests in the HMRC link.  Uber (and AL) drivers are not (and do not) - as those employment tribunals found (and it certainly will be interesting to see how they argue that appeal given that they've gone round the media all week saying how "their" drivers are all going to lose their jobs).


I know Uber drivers who own their own cars, punt themselves around various companies to get quality work and use Uber to fill in when they're quiet. This isn't possible at AL.


----------



## Guineveretoo (Sep 26, 2017)

Something that has consistently been said is that Uber is undercutting other private hire companies, and I have to say that this is not the case in my experience. This may be simply because I was late to the party - I guess perhaps they undercut when the started? - but they are certainly no cheaper than local private hire companies where I am, and often considerably more, since they hike their prices at busy times. 

I don't use Uber because they are cheaper. I use them because they are reliable, I know the car registration number and when it is coming, and the cars are modern and clean. None of those things apply to the private hire companies round here!


----------



## cupid_stunt (Sep 26, 2017)

agricola said:


> If you mean black cabs, then they are genuinely self-employed - they pass all the tests in the HMRC link.  Uber (and AL) drivers are not (and do not) - as those employment tribunals found (and it certainly will be interesting to see how they argue that appeal given that they've gone round the media all week saying how "their" drivers are all going to lose their jobs).



No, they are mini-cab drivers, who own their own vehicles, work the hours they wish, take jobs directly, but also pay a weekly charge or percentage of fares to a local cab operator for most of their work locally, and also drive for another operator that only does airport & seaport runs. 

I thought uber drivers used their own cars, chose their own hours, and also (or can do) drive for themselves and/or other cab operators, in which case that sounds like self-employed to me.

I don't know much about AL, but I believe they have to rent cars from them, and from what maomao says above, can't work for other operators, which doesn't sound much like self-employment to me.


----------



## maomao (Sep 26, 2017)

cupid_stunt said:


> I thought uber drivers used their own cars, chose their own hours, and also (or can do) drive for themselves and/or other cab operators, in which case that sounds like self-employed to me.


They have a fleet dept who will help you rent a car and get your paperwork together to work for them. They don't advertise the fact that you can work for other people and I've been told they hassle you to work for them regularly. That's not self-employed unless you know the rules and sort your own car and shit out.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Sep 26, 2017)

maomao said:


> They have a fleet dept who will help you rent a car and get your paperwork together to work for them. They don't advertise the fact that you can work for other people and I've been told they hassle you to work for them regularly. That's not self-employed unless you know the rules and sort your own car and shit out.



There you go, you learn something new everyday, I thought they were all owner-drivers, and that's why I was surprised they had been classed as being employed.


----------



## Gramsci (Sep 26, 2017)

cupid_stunt said:


> There you go, you learn something new everyday, I thought they were all owner-drivers, and that's why I was surprised they had been classed as being employed.



Even if you are owner driver in courier industry some companies want you to be regular. Expect you to work shifts. Actually some companies are now much more flexible as they are worried about implications of these cases. They used to give people hard time if they just took time off or went home "early". Now they are worried that the people they (don't ) employ may be employees.

Some of these courier companies prefer having owner drivers. Having a big fleet is a headache. Just because one owns ones vehicle doesn't mean in practice they are not expected to work the hours.

There is a lot of subtle and not so subtle pressure on people to perform. As drivers are classified as "self employed" apart from no sick pay, etc one can be "let go" for any reason or no reason. It's not like being properly employed employed. No grievance procedure or warnings.

It's affecting other industries like journalism as well. Industries that found having people as freelance made sense- no sick pay, no holiday pay, no redundancy, ability to let people go when work was slack. Self employment / freelancing isn't a real choice for a lot of people. It's just how some industries work.


----------



## Badgers (Sep 29, 2017)

Uber licence withdrawal disproportionate, says Theresa May

Nice of her to chip in her tuppence worth


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 29, 2017)

Badgers said:


> Uber licence withdrawal disproportionate, says Theresa May
> 
> Nice of her to chip in her tuppence worth


they've offered her a post for when the tories chuck her out, part-time driver


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 29, 2017)

Badgers said:


> Uber licence withdrawal disproportionate, says Theresa May
> 
> Nice of her to chip in her tuppence worth



The time has long since passed when anyone gave the slightest shit about what she says.  Didn't she speak with Trump about the threat to Bombardier?  That certainly did the trick.


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 29, 2017)

she's been defending the free market in terms of it literally being humanities greatest achievement which would amuse me if I didn't know that most of them believe that. That such a thing exists and that its really the pinnacle of all things ever that humans do


----------



## kabbes (Sep 29, 2017)

Badgers said:


> Uber licence withdrawal disproportionate, says Theresa May
> 
> Nice of her to chip in her tuppence worth


She also said that cadburies had cancelled Easter with a poster.  She sings to her Daily Mail lapdogs but everybody else things she's a twit.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Sep 29, 2017)

Badgers said:


> Uber licence withdrawal disproportionate, says Theresa May
> 
> Nice of her to chip in her tuppence worth


 
Did you see the interview clip - even she says nothing, says its badly. How the fuck did this poltroon ever get a job ?


----------



## not-bono-ever (Sep 29, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> they've offered her a post for when the tories chuck her out, part-time driver


 
being a successful driver involves a multitude of technical and social skills she does not possess


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Sep 29, 2017)

not-bono-ever said:


> Did you see the interview clip - even she says nothing, says its badly. How the fuck did this poltroon ever get a job ?



The really amazing thing is that up until not long before the election they'd managed to manufacture an image of her being the exact opposite - in control, competent, basically taking charge of things. Not on here perhaps but it was widely believed. Quite some doing given how completely hopeless she looks now.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Sep 29, 2017)

not-bono-ever said:


> being a successful driver involves a multitude of technical and social skills she does not possess



'You are at your final location...'

'Er, I'm not. I'm still sitting outside the house. Could you maybe drive the car please?'

'You are at your final location...'


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 29, 2017)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> The really amazing thing is that up until not long before the election they'd managed to manufacture an image of her being the exact opposite - in control, competent, basically taking charge of things. Not on here perhaps but it was widely believed. Quite some doing given how completely hopeless she looks now.


shows how ephemeral these projections of power-as-image can be. I was calling her Darth May for weeks. Then the disastrous snap election and greenfell, space of 2 months and now look....


----------



## not-bono-ever (Sep 29, 2017)

every time I see her interviewed, I want to see the interviewer push her a bit on the non committal answer she invariably trots out - maybe they are in awe of her  or just cannot be fucked to risk their career by upsetting the party PR team. It is utterly criminal the way she is massaged and never take to task on the spunking cock ejaculate she dispenses


----------



## kabbes (Sep 29, 2017)

not-bono-ever said:


> every time I see her interviewed, I want to see the interviewer push her a bit on the non committal answer she invariably trots out - maybe they are in awe of her  or just cannot be fucked to risk their career by upsetting the party PR team. It is utterly criminal the way she is massaged and never take to task on the spunking cock ejaculate she dispenses


Which is fine until she is lulled into a false sense of security as a result and calls a snap election.  At which point, she suddenly comes under proper scrutiny and folds like a 5 and a 2.


----------



## Chz (Sep 29, 2017)

> I was calling her Darth May for weeks.


I still do, but it's for her autocratic nature and hatred of anything as wishy-washy as human rights that I refer to her so. Darth Maul was on-screen for all of 15 minutes before he died, and Darth Vader made a super battlestation with an obvious self-destruct button. Competency wasn't their strength.


----------



## NoXion (Sep 29, 2017)

Chz said:


> I still do, but it's for her autocratic nature and hatred of anything as wishy-washy as human rights that I refer to her so. Darth Maul was on-screen for all of 15 minutes before he died, and Darth Vader made a super battlestation with an obvious self-destruct button. Competency wasn't their strength.



Actually the Death Star exploding was Tarkin's fault. He dismissed the small Rebel strike force as inconsequential and refused to scramble the TIE fighters to intercept them. This left Darth Vader to deal with the Rebel attack using his personal fighter and the only TIE squadron under his direct command.

[/Nerd]


----------



## Sasaferrato (Sep 30, 2017)

killer b said:


> Great stuff. Fuck 'em.


And presumably, fuck the 40,000 drivers who now can't feed their families?


----------



## killer b (Sep 30, 2017)

It's like 20 pages of debate and two weeks of the story developing simply haven't happened.


----------



## killer b (Sep 30, 2017)

(By which I mean your post, not my view on uber, which remains the same)


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 30, 2017)

Sasaferrato said:


> And presumably, fuck the 40,000 drivers who now can't feed their families?



Dunno.  I'm yet to speak with an uber driver who is unduly worried.  They may be putting a brave face on it but the ones I spoke to said whilst its a pain there are loads of ways for them to get work.  Obviously it will be different for different people but I've spoken to 5 since this all blew up.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Sep 30, 2017)

Sasaferrato said:


> And presumably, fuck the 40,000 drivers who now can't feed their families?



The will just drive for other firms instead, it's not like uber actually employs them.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Sep 30, 2017)

cupid_stunt said:


> The will just drive for other firms instead, it's not like uber actually employs them.


Aye, but that can take time. With the benefits system being as agile as a sloth on barbiturates, there will be real hardship.


----------



## maomao (Sep 30, 2017)

Sasaferrato said:


> Aye, but that can take time. With the benefits system being as agile as a sloth on barbiturates, there will be real hardship.


Just like Uber pushing rates down has caused real hardship. Drivers who work exclusively for Uber have to do an 80 hour week to earn what they earned in 60 hours three years ago. That's real hardship.


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 30, 2017)

Sasaferrato said:


> Aye, but that can take time. With the benefits system being as agile as a sloth on barbiturates, there will be real hardship.



Not really.  They're all self-employed so they can just pick up work with cab companies with similar arrangements that they already have.  This is what I'm being told anyway.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Sep 30, 2017)

Sasaferrato said:


> Aye, but that can take time. With the benefits system being as agile as a sloth on barbiturates, there will be real hardship.



You should have read the thread, the appeal is likely to take months, so plenty of time for the drivers to sort themselves out. Although I suspect uber will meet whatever conditions are required, to the benefit of both of drivers & passengers alike, to get their licence renewed.


----------



## cybershot (Oct 2, 2017)

Cunts


----------



## lefteri (Oct 2, 2017)

cybershot said:


> Cunts



Thing is under aren't doing anything- it's an algorithm- I imagine it would be fairly hard to write an algorithm that responds quickly to terrorism, real or suspected


----------



## lefteri (Oct 2, 2017)

lefteri said:


> Thing is under aren't doing anything



Interesting autocorrect there!


----------



## cybershot (Oct 2, 2017)

lefteri said:


> Thing is under aren't doing anything- it's an algorithm- I imagine it would be fairly hard to write an algorithm that responds quickly to terrorism, real or suspected



I'm sure its not difficult for someone in uber towers to override the setting for an area for a pre-determined amount of time. Let's hope the Daily Express's annual revelation of 60ft of snow doesn't happen this coming winter.


----------



## lefteri (Oct 2, 2017)

cybershot said:


> I'm sure its not difficult for someone in uber towers to override the setting for an area for a pre-determined amount of time. Let's hope the Daily Express's annual revelation of 60ft of snow doesn't happen this coming winter.


Yeah would probably help but that wouldn't be until news reports got out and would miss the beginning of the problem


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 2, 2017)

lefteri said:


> Thing is under aren't doing anything- it's an algorithm- I imagine it would be fairly hard to write an algorithm that responds quickly to terrorism, real or suspected


Doesn't matter what the reason is. The fact it's an accidental feature of their model that it will put prices up during crisis moments just goes to highlight the shit anti-human nature of this kind of model.


----------



## lefteri (Oct 2, 2017)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Doesn't matter what the reason is. The fact it's an accidental feature of their model that it will put prices up during crisis moments just goes to highlight the shit anti-human nature of this kind of model.


I agree, my point was just that it's a bit more nuanced than the knee jerk 'uber are cunts'- although that remains of course the case


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 2, 2017)

lefteri said:


> I agree, my point was just that it's a bit more nuanced than the knee jerk 'uber are cunts'- although that remains of course the case


fair enough.


----------



## cybershot (Oct 2, 2017)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Doesn't matter what the reason is. The fact it's an accidental feature of their model that it will put prices up during crisis moments just goes to highlight the shit anti-human nature of this kind of model.



I don't understand why there's a reason to increase prices regardless of the demand anyway, so basically, the same thing happens when everyone starts coming out the o2/wembley etc?

What a crock of shit.


----------



## Guineveretoo (Oct 2, 2017)

cybershot said:


> I don't understand why there's a reason to increase prices regardless of the demand anyway, so basically, the same thing happens when everyone starts coming out the o2/wembley etc?
> 
> What a crock of shit.


Yes - this is one of the many ways in which Uber is NOT cheaper than private hire cars, nor even black cabs.


----------



## Dogsauce (Oct 3, 2017)

cybershot said:


> I don't understand why there's a reason to increase prices regardless of the demand anyway (...)



It's to allow the wealthy to jump the queue, a cornerstone of libertarian belief - that having money allows you to trample over the heads of others for services such as transport and healthcare - see also proposals in the past for 'premium' toll lanes on motorways or boarding priority bollocks on airlines.  It's 'moral' because obviously you've worked really hard for that money and not just inherited it or gained it through exploitation of others.


----------



## moochedit (Oct 3, 2017)

cybershot said:


> I don't understand why there's a reason to increase prices regardless of the demand anyway, so basically, the same thing happens when everyone starts coming out the o2/wembley etc?
> 
> What a crock of shit.



I have heard the reason they do it is because otherwise when it is a busy time the cabs would just ignore uber as easier to just pick up fairs (cash in hand) from the street. they found raising the prices at peak times means the cabbies still use uber.


----------



## maomao (Oct 3, 2017)

moochedit said:


> I have heard the reason they do it is because otherwise when it is a busy time the cabs would just ignore uber as easier to just pick up fairs (cash in hand) from the street. they found raising the prices at peak times means the cabbies still use uber.


Uber drivers aren't allowed to pick up from the street and black cab drivers don't work for Uber.

Word on the street is that enough Uber drivers are rushing back to the old companies to guarantee regular surge pricing and plenty of work for all on Uber keeping those drivers who are sticking with it much happier. I guess within a couple of weeks enough passengers will be scared off by regular surging to even it all out again.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 3, 2017)

Well companies like Addison Lee are having a big recruitment drive now to try and mop up the (fucked) Uber drivers. The reason drivers worked for Uber rather than Addison Lee in the past was they got paid more of the fare. 
So Addison Lee make more profit, prices go up and the driver gets less. 
A bag o'shite.


----------



## editor (Oct 3, 2017)

TopCat said:


> Well companies like Addison Lee are having a big recruitment drive now to try and mop up the (fucked) Uber drivers. The reason drivers worked for Uber rather than Addison Lee in the past was they got paid more of the fare.
> So Addison Lee make more profit, prices go up and the driver gets less.
> A bag o'shite.


And Addison fucking cunting Lee are BIG supporters of the Tory party.


----------



## editor (Oct 3, 2017)

Guineveretoo said:


> Yes - this is one of the many ways in which Uber is NOT cheaper than private hire cars, nor even black cabs.


Eh? I've never had an Uber fare that comes even close to the sky high charges of black cabs.


----------



## Guineveretoo (Oct 3, 2017)

editor said:


> Eh? I've never had an Uber fare that comes even close to the sky high charges of black cabs.


I was recently quoted £14 to get an Uber from my house to East Croydon station. Normally costs just over a fiver. A black cab is usually about £8.

Uber put their prices up when they are busy - that was the point being made in the post to which I was replying.


----------



## sealion (Oct 7, 2017)

Researchers have found something terrifying about the Uber app


----------



## cybershot (Nov 21, 2017)

Uber concealed huge data breach


----------



## scifisam (Nov 21, 2017)

editor said:


> Eh? I've never had an Uber fare that comes even close to the sky high charges of black cabs.



I have, multiple times.


----------



## equationgirl (Nov 22, 2017)

cybershot said:


> Uber concealed huge data breach


Oh look, the head of corporate security is no longer with Uber...

Massive fallout ahoy.


----------



## SaskiaJayne (Nov 22, 2017)

Tbf there have always been minicab operators that have been total cowboy outfits so no suprises about uber really.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 7, 2017)

They are in trouble in Sheffield now...

Uber has its licence suspended in Sheffield


----------



## cybershot (Dec 13, 2017)

Uber loses license in York

York has refused to renew Uber's licence


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 13, 2017)

Oh dear, the whole house of cards is coming down on them.


----------



## kabbes (Dec 13, 2017)

cupid_stunt said:


> They are in trouble in Sheffield now...
> 
> Uber has its licence suspended in Sheffield


Licence renewed, though, after uber claimed Sheffield council had been sending mail to the wrong address, and answered the questions Sheffield had posed.  Not sure I buy the "wrong address" excuse, but it shows they can kiss up when they need to.


----------



## cybershot (Dec 16, 2017)

Uber really are possibly one of the worst companies of 2017. 

Uber used 'undercover agents'


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 20, 2017)

Uber is officially a cab firm, says court

ECJ declares Uber to be a taxi company and not a technology firm.

This means that Uber has to abide by rules laid down to local taxi companies wherever they operate in the EU. Tfl's contention that Uber is not fit to have a taxi license looks much stronger now.

It's clear that Uber has lied to Tfl, taxi companies can not lie to Tfl and expect to keep their license.


As an aside, remember when Dara Khosrowshahi apoligised to London for Uber's failings and made a solemn promise to get his house in order? Whilst he was saying the words, he knew that Uber's customer database had been hacked, but chose not to inform the customers of the data breach.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 20, 2017)

cybershot said:


> I don't understand why there's a reason to increase prices regardless of the demand anyway, so basically, the same thing happens when everyone starts coming out the o2/wembley etc?
> 
> What a crock of shit.


Do you complain about variable pricing on coach train plane transport?


----------



## TopCat (Dec 20, 2017)

cybershot said:


> Uber really are possibly one of the worst companies of 2017.
> 
> Uber used 'undercover agents'


Great service and for the drivers a bigger slice of the fare than any comparable circuit.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 20, 2017)

TopCat said:


> Great service and for the drivers a bigger slice of the fare than any comparable circuit.



Not such a great service if you are raped by one of their drivers who has not gone through proper checks.


----------



## cybershot (Dec 20, 2017)

TopCat said:


> Do you complain about variable pricing on coach train plane transport?



Surely everyone has complained/moaned about how complex and ridiculous rail pricing can be, planes when the kids are off.

coach, try not to use, too many smelly people.

But yeah, Suppose we should just take it on the chin.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 20, 2017)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Not such a great service if you are raped by one of their drivers who has not gone through proper checks.


If they have a private hire drivers licence then Tfl do the DBS check. Not Uber. 
Remember John Worberry btw?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 20, 2017)

TopCat said:


> If they have a private hire drivers licence then Tfl do the DBS check. Not Uber.
> Remember John Worberry btw?



Uber has to check the checks have been done, they haven't. And the checks are there to try and stop another cunt like Worberry from prowling the streets. 

edit: last Friday night, 15th/16th December was the latest rape & murder committed by an Uber driver.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 20, 2017)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Uber has to check the checks have been done, they haven't. And the checks are there to try and stop another cunt like Worberry from prowling the streets.


Have Uber let people work who did not have a current private hire licence? Gen question? 

Worberry had no criminal record and as there is no record of London Taxi journeys, Taxi's are a danger uniquely and in  a league of their own.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 20, 2017)

TopCat said:


> Have Uber let people work who did not have a current private hire licence? Gen question?
> 
> Worberry had no criminal record and as there is no record of London Taxi journeys, Taxi's are a danger uniquely and in  a league of their own.


worboys


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 20, 2017)

TopCat said:


> Have Uber let people work who did not have a current private hire licence? Gen question?



Not as far as I'm aware. The big issue regarding the crime element is the way Uber fails to report complaints of criminal behaviour. But as you note, taxis are a unique danger, pretty much the only time a lone female would ever get in a stranger's car and DBS checks are far from perfect. Worboys was one very high profile case, Uber drivers had over 30 rape complaints last year in London alone. Just last week a British woman was raped and murdered by an Uber driver. All seems a bit much. Add to that their tax dodging which puts the competition out of business and deprives our schools, sick and disabled people of money; makes them all round scumbags imo.


----------



## maomao (Dec 20, 2017)

TopCat said:


> Great service and for the drivers a bigger slice of the fare than any comparable circuit.


This is true in itself but it's a bigger slice of a smaller pie. Would you rather get 60% of a ten pound fare or 75% of a five pound fare? Uber have dragged fares and driver rates down to a new low. In addition the 25% supports a much smaller pool of workers in the office.  The real advantages they've given to drivers have been in cutting dead mileage and allowing drivers to really pick their own hours.


----------



## maomao (Dec 20, 2017)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> last Friday night, 15th/16th December was the latest rape & murder committed by an Uber driver.


In Beirut. Not that that makes it alright, just for clarity.


----------



## 19force8 (Dec 20, 2017)

The ECJ ruling is one thing, but I haven't stopped grinning since I saw this:

Zelo Street: Uber And A £1 Billion VAT Bill

and, yes, I know they'll likely never pay it. Which just means another stick to beat the bastards with.


----------



## William of Walworth (Dec 22, 2017)

Top Cat said:
			
		

> Have Uber let people work who did not have a current private hire licence? Gen question?
> 
> Worberry had no criminal record and as there is no record of London Taxi journeys, Taxi's are a danger uniquely and in a league of their own.





Pickman's model said:


> worboys



I was going to make that correction but you beat me to it 

Here's a 2009 link to John Worboys' conviction, in case anyone needs reminding about this disgusting rapist


----------



## William of Walworth (Dec 22, 2017)

More broadly though -- are there any figures about numbers of crimes committed by London Taxi (black cab) drivers, compared to those committed by minicab drivers or by Uber drivers etc.? 

Genuine question ...


----------



## maomao (Dec 22, 2017)

William of Walworth said:


> More broadly though -- are there any figures about numbers of crimes committed by London Taxi (black cab) drivers, compared to those committed by minicab drivers or by Uber drivers etc.?
> 
> Genuine question ...



I haven't seen any but I'd be prepared to bet a largish sum of money that in London at least they're all dwarfed by the amounts of assaults on drivers carried out by passengers a fair proportion of which go unreported. One of the great advantages of Uber for drivers is it provides easy cash type work with the security of an account circuit.


----------



## William of Walworth (Dec 22, 2017)

It would be good to see figures on *all* aspects of taxi or hire car or minicap linked crimes, in both directions. If there are any figures ...


----------



## maomao (Dec 22, 2017)

William of Walworth said:


> It would be good to see figures on *all* aspects of taxi or hire car or minicap linked crimes, in both directions. If there are any figures ...


I doubt most get reported. When I worked a cash circuit (as a controller) I've had drivers robbed with guns or beaten up and turned over, all sorts and no-one ever got the police involved.


----------



## William of Walworth (Dec 22, 2017)

Post liked for the insight, not for the crimes!


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 22, 2017)

maomao said:


> I doubt most get reported. When I worked a cash circuit (as a controller) I've had drivers robbed with guns or beaten up and turned over, all sorts and no-one ever got the police involved.



Why?

I know taxi drivers, if they have anything major happen they always report it.


----------



## maomao (Dec 22, 2017)

cupid_stunt said:


> Why?
> 
> I know taxi drivers, if they have anything major happen they always report it.


IME only if there's damage to the car. There's really very little to be achieved by telling a copper that some toerag pointed a gun at you and ran off with your bag of money. What's going to happen?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 22, 2017)

maomao said:


> IME only if there's damage to the car. There's really very little to be achieved by telling a copper that some toerag pointed a gun at you and ran off with your bag of money. What's going to happen?



Check CCTV footage, and occasionally get lucky?

But, your experience is in London, different world I guess.

Down here, if someone pulls out a gun or more likely a knife, and it's reported, the cops go to town on it, and the toerag usually gets caught.


----------



## maomao (Dec 22, 2017)

cupid_stunt said:


> Check CCTV footage, and occasionally get lucky?
> 
> But, your experience is in London, different world I guess.
> 
> Down here, if someone pulls out a gun or more likely a knife, and it's reported, the cops go to town on it, and the toerag usually gets caught.


This is twenty years ago. I haven't worked on cash circuits for a long time. Not so many cams in those days.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 22, 2017)

I guess you either report knifes and/or guns getting pulled on you & expect the cops to deal with it, and hound them if they don't.

Or you don't, and just accept you live in a jungle.


----------



## maomao (Dec 22, 2017)

cupid_stunt said:


> I guess you either report knifes and/or guns getting pulled on you & expect the cops to deal with it, and hound them if they don't.
> 
> Or you don't, and just accept you live in a jungle.



Well there's lost causes as in a couple of hoodies going to Tottenham, robbing the driver and fucking off. That driver (Tony 46) didn't call the police but he never worked again, didn't feel it was worth it. Then there was the time my boss (who also drove) got turned over by some young men from the local traveller camp. He got a few bruises and lost his cash bag but he was a big lump and could take it. He didn't feel going to the cops would be a diplomatic way of dealing with the incident.

Life's complicated.


----------



## scifisam (Dec 22, 2017)

TopCat said:


> Do you complain about variable pricing on coach train plane transport?



With them do you get a notification of a 50% increase after you've already booked the trip and it's too late to rebook without a penalty? Even if it's actually 2pm on a quiet weekday and it's not actually a peak pricing time at all?


----------



## Spymaster (Dec 22, 2017)

maomao said:


> There's really very little to be achieved by telling a copper that some toerag pointed a gun at you ...


Absolute bollocks.


----------



## Spymaster (Dec 22, 2017)

cupid_stunt said:


> Check CCTV footage, and occasionally get lucky?


And much more.

maomao is totally full of shit. The police take firearms incidents very seriously indeed. Anyone who doesn't report a gun threat is a cunt of the highest order.


----------



## maomao (Dec 23, 2017)

Spymaster said:


> And much more.
> 
> maomao is totally full of shit. The police take firearms incidents very seriously indeed. Anyone who doesn't report a gun threat is a cunt of the highest order.


Well if I ever bump into old Tony again I'll tell him some cunt on the internet says he's a cunt. That incident aside, if cabbies phoned plod every time some fucker fucked off without paying they'd need a special department for it.


----------



## Spymaster (Dec 23, 2017)

maomao said:


> Well if I ever bump into old Tony again I'll tell him some cunt on the internet says he's a cunt. That incident aside, if cabbies phoned plod every time some fucker fucked off without paying they'd need a special department for it.


Fucking off without paying a cab fare is a very, very long way from threatening someone with a gun. _Old Tony’s_ either a liar or a fuckwit. Or you are.


----------



## maomao (Dec 23, 2017)

Spymaster said:


> Fucking off without paying is a very, very long way from being threatened with a gun. Old Tony’s either a liar or a fuckwit. Or you are.


Maybe you can help us out and report it to one of your copper mates at the lodge then. It doesn't matter. It was twenty years ago and I'm not going to tell the story in any more detail than I have.


----------



## Spymaster (Dec 23, 2017)

Was Jimmy Hill there?


----------



## maomao (Dec 23, 2017)

Spymaster said:


> Was Jimmy Hill there?


Yes. I understand that you don't believe me. Do you understand that I couldn't give a flying fuck?


----------



## William of Walworth (Dec 23, 2017)

Bahnhof Strasse said:
			
		

> Uber is officially a cab firm, says court
> 
> ECJ declares Uber to be a taxi company and not a technology firm.
> 
> ...



For some reason I missed the above news earlier, about challengers to Uber winning their ECJ case.

 This ruling surely has pretty big implications. Some of them are touched on here


----------



## Spymaster (Dec 23, 2017)

‘Very little to be achieved by reporting gun crime’


----------



## maomao (Dec 23, 2017)

Spymaster said:


> ‘Very little to be achieved by reporting gun crime’


Well that's not what I said.

Probably more to do with being in shock (he literally jacked his job in there and then) and a general distrust of police amongst a mainly ethnic minority workforce. There exists a possibility it was reported and I didn't know about it but given I was the main other witness (I put them in his car) you'd think the police would have at least asked me about it.


----------



## Spymaster (Dec 23, 2017)

maomao said:


> Well that's not what I said.


It’s an extremely accurate paraphrase of exactly what you said, you fucking idiot.


----------



## maomao (Dec 23, 2017)

Spymaster said:


> It’s an extremely accurate paraphrase of exactly what you said, you fucking idiot.


Whatever Hammy. It's Christmas Eve Eve and I'm in the mood for turkey not beef so you'll have to argue with yourself on this one.


----------



## Spymaster (Dec 23, 2017)

Yeah, right. If you’d spent any time with anyone who’d genuinely been affected by gun crime you wouldn’t be on here trotting out such fuckwitted  banalities.


----------



## maomao (Dec 23, 2017)

Spymaster said:


> Yeah, right. If you’d spent any time with anyone who’d genuinely been affected by gun crime you wouldn’t be on here trotting out such fuckwit  banalities.


Well, I didn't see a lot of him after that given that we worked together and he left his job because of it. I think you're confusing me saying it wasn't reported with me saying it shouldn't have been. In future I'll change all my anecdotes from what actually happened to what should have happened just for your benefit.


----------



## Yossarian (Dec 23, 2017)

Spymaster said:


> Fucking off without paying a cab fare is a very, very long way from threatening someone with a gun. _Old Tony’s_ either a liar or a fuckwit. Or you are.



Maybe the guy had unpaid fines. Or dubious immigration status. Or had negative experiences with the police treating victims like suspects and didn't want anything to do with them. Or he was feeling fucked up by the whole experience and wanted to go home instead of being kept waiting around a police station for hours on end. Maybe he'd smoked some weed that day and was worried they might test his blood. Or maybe the robbers told him they saw his name on the taxi license and said they would fuck him up if he reported them. Or maybe he just thought the police are so shit there would be no point in reporting the crime.


----------



## TruXta (Dec 23, 2017)

Yossarian said:


> Maybe the guy had unpaid fines. Or dubious immigration status. Or had negative experiences with the police treating victims like suspects and didn't want anything to do with them. Or he was feeling fucked up by the whole experience and wanted to go home instead of being kept waiting around a police station for hours on end. Maybe he'd smoked some weed that day and was worried they might test his blood. Or maybe the robbers told them they saw his name on the taxi license and said they would fuck him up if they reported him. Or maybe he just thought the police are so shit there would be no point in reporting the crime.


Don't fuck with Spymasters justice boner


----------



## Spymaster (Dec 23, 2017)

maomao said:


> I think you're confusing me saying it wasn't reported with me saying it shouldn't have been.


Then you think wrong.


Yossarian said:


> Maybe the guy had unpaid fines. Or dubious immigration status. Or had negative experiences with the police treating victims like suspects and didn't want anything to do with them. Or he was feeling fucked up by the whole experience and wanted to go home instead of being kept waiting around a police station for hours on end. Maybe he'd smoked some weed that day and was worried they might test his blood. Or maybe the robbers told him they saw his name on the taxi license and said they would fuck him up if he reported them. Or maybe he just thought the police are so shit there would be no point in reporting the crime.


And maybe if my aunt had a pair of bollocks she'd have been my uncle. In any case "Old Tony" had nothing to do with this nonsense:


> There's really very little to be achieved by telling a copper that some toerag pointed a gun at you ...


That was pure Maomao.


----------



## scifisam (Dec 23, 2017)

Yossarian said:


> Maybe the guy had unpaid fines. Or dubious immigration status. Or had negative experiences with the police treating victims like suspects and didn't want anything to do with them. Or he was feeling fucked up by the whole experience and wanted to go home instead of being kept waiting around a police station for hours on end. Maybe he'd smoked some weed that day and was worried they might test his blood. Or maybe the robbers told him they saw his name on the taxi license and said they would fuck him up if he reported them. Or maybe he just thought the police are so shit there would be no point in reporting the crime.



Some of your potential justifications are understandable but not really good excuses (being afraid of cops or messed up by the situation) and some would be terrible excuses because they'd mean he shouldn't have been driving a taxi.


----------



## maomao (Dec 23, 2017)

Spymaster said:


> That was pure Maomao.


Both can be true. There would have been fuck all point reporting it (no cctv, fuck all to go on) and yet it would have been the 'right' thing to do. I was stressing the futility of reporting it. Or do you think every time some scrote waves a gun at someone in Tottenham they put a team of detectives on the case? 

The 'point' was that unlike a cash customer in a walk in office an Uber driver doesn't have to worry about shit like that. If you're merely concerned with the veracity of the story it's a pretty fucking pointless argument. The office is still there and I'm sure someone would remember if it means that much to you.


----------



## Spymaster (Dec 23, 2017)

maomao said:


> Or do you think every time some scrote waves a gun at someone in Tottenham they put a team of detectives on the case?


Perhaps not teams but the information is taken, description of the individual, maybe links to other crimes explored, perhaps the twat gets brought to book after he’s caught for something else ... etc. Only an idiot would think that telling plod about someone threatening people with guns is pointless.


----------



## scifisam (Dec 23, 2017)

Spymaster said:


> Not teams but the information is taken, description of the individual, maybe links to other crimes explored, perhaps the twat gets brought to book after he’s caught for something else ... etc. Only an idiot would think that telling plod about someone threatening people with guns is pointless.



Plus, wouldn't knowing where (GPS plus cabbie's evidence) someone took out a gun and threatened someone with it be helpful? It's a crime in itself obvs but if there had been another gun crime nearby that night then having a description of the guy in the cab would be evidence, surely? I don't understand the idea that reporting it would have no purpose. I can understand someone might fear for their own safety if they make a report but to claim it wouldn't actually have any point is just daft.


----------



## Spymaster (Dec 23, 2017)

scifisam said:


> Plus, wouldn't knowing where (GPS plus cabbie's evidence) someone took out a gun and threatened someone with it be helpful? It's a crime in itself obvs but if there had been another gun crime nearby that night then having a description of the guy in the cab would be evidence, surely? I don't understand the idea that reporting it would have no purpose. I can understand someone might fear for their own safety if they make a report but to claim it wouldn't actually have any point is just daft.


Indeed. It may affect future policing in the area, warnings to the public. All sorts.


----------



## maomao (Dec 23, 2017)

Well talk to fucking Tony about it then. I'm just saying what happened. 

And cabs didn't have gps twenty years ago. The first cabbie I remember with gps was about 2005 and everyone thought it was so funny they called him Satnav.


----------



## Spymaster (Dec 23, 2017)

maomao said:


> Well talk to fucking Tony about it then.


I don't know fucking Tony and fucking Tony's not the fucking dickhead posting here that there's "very little to be achieved" by reporting a firearms threat to the fucking police.


----------



## maomao (Dec 23, 2017)

Spymaster said:


> I don't know fucking Tony and fucking Tony's not the fucking dickhead posting here that there's "very little to be achieved" by reporting a firearms threat to the fucking police.


Your opinions have been noted.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 23, 2017)




----------



## Orang Utan (Dec 23, 2017)

Funnily enough, a taxi driver once threatened me and some friends with a gun, so fuck em.


----------



## Spymaster (Dec 24, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> Funnily enough, a taxi driver once threatened me and some friends with a gun, so fuck em.


Hope you didn’t report it. Nothing to be achieved.


----------



## Orang Utan (Dec 24, 2017)

Spymaster said:


> Hope you didn’t report it. Nothing to be achieved.


Nope


----------



## Spymaster (Dec 24, 2017)

Good man. Very sensible.


----------



## William of Walworth (Dec 25, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> Funnily enough, a taxi driver once threatened me and some friends with a gun, so fuck em.



London Black Cab, or other type of taxi?


----------



## Orang Utan (Dec 25, 2017)

William of Walworth said:


> London Black Cab, or other type of taxi?


unlicensed minicab - the type that would hang around outside nightclubs at 6am


----------



## keybored (Jan 4, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> worboys


About to be released.
'Black-cab rapist' to be freed from jail


----------



## William of Walworth (Jan 4, 2018)

keybored said:


> About to be released.
> 'Black-cab rapist' to be freed from jail



Why is that disgusting rapist being allowed out at all? 

Why?  (x 10,000), but also 

There's no justification whatsover


----------



## William of Walworth (Jan 4, 2018)

BBC said:
			
		

> Harriet Wistrich, a lawyer who represents two of Worboys' victims, said neither woman had received a letter to inform them that the convicted rapist would be released.
> 
> Black cab rapist: "I screamed at him to get off me"
> Sex attack victims sue cabbie John Worboys and his insurers
> ...



Spot on, especially the  paragraph that I've bolded at the end of that BBC report


----------



## RainbowTown (Mar 28, 2018)

Some good news at last.

The scum bag and pond-life John Worboys has had his release decision overturned by the High Court today. It has been quashed. Also, the chief of the parole board that sanctioned his release, one Nick Hardwick, has 'resigned'.

Great news for the victims of this poor excuse for a human being. 

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43568533


----------



## cupid_stunt (May 1, 2018)

More bad news for Uber:

Brighton and Hove council turns down Uber licence renewal


----------



## Chz (May 24, 2018)

The NTSB has published its report (in record time) on the crash in Arizona.
NTSB: Uber’s sensors worked; its software utterly failed in fatal crash

Really, it's very difficult to see any possible way out of a large criminal negligence suit brought forward by the government.
Highlights:
Emergency braking in the Uber software was disabled.
The vehicle's built-in emergency braking system (Volvo has a road-legal one in this case) was also disabled.
The software detected the pedestrian over six seconds before impact - more than enough time to stop - but became confused as to what it was and decided to fail-deadly and do nothing.
The software is not designed to notify the human driver when this occurs.
The human driver was recording information on an Uber-provided pad, as required by Uber as a part of the job.
Uber used to have two humans in the car - one for emergencies, and one for recording incidents - but cut costs and decided to have one person do both.


----------



## Gromit (May 24, 2018)

Chz said:


> The NTSB has published its report (in record time) on the crash in Arizona.
> NTSB: Uber’s sensors worked; its software utterly failed in fatal crash
> 
> Really, it's very difficult to see any possible way out of a large criminal negligence suit brought forward by the government.
> ...


They don't have a leg to stand on judging by that.


----------



## sealion (May 24, 2018)

cupid_stunt said:


> More bad news for Uber:
> 
> Brighton and Hove council turns down Uber licence renewal


They are still operating here, the drivers registar an address in sussex and away they go!


----------



## elbows (May 24, 2018)

I note that the day before news of the NTSB reports findings, Uber cancelled its Arizona driverless program. They still hope to restart it elsewhere later this year.

Uber ends Arizona driverless car programme


----------



## cupid_stunt (May 28, 2018)

sealion said:


> They are still operating here, the drivers registar an address in sussex and away they go!



That articles says they can continue trading until the appeal is heard, so I am assuming they are still running both cabs licenced  by the city & from outside.

I was talking to a taxi driver only a couple of days ago, he reckons there's now around 500 taxis licenced in Worthing, far too many, and was saying his income has been dropping for the last 5 or 6 years. He went on to say he knows of a few that have decided to try their luck with uber in the city.


----------



## sealion (May 28, 2018)

cupid_stunt said:


> I was talking to a taxi driver only a couple of days ago, he reckons there's now around 500 taxis licenced in Worthing, far too many, and was saying his income has been dropping for the last 5 or 6 years.


It's the same here but there's more than 500. The council make a lot of money so keep dishing them out.


cupid_stunt said:


> He went on to say he knows of a few that have decided to try their luck with uber in the city.


I know a few London cabbies that tried, but not for long. The money is shit in London unless you are lucky and put in long hours.


----------



## Maggot (Jun 26, 2018)

The appeal has been won by Uber

Uber overturns ban on operating in London


----------



## Teaboy (Jun 26, 2018)

Maggot said:


> The appeal has been won by Uber
> 
> Uber overturns ban on operating in London



Went on a charm offensive, all contrite and respectful etc.  Wouldn't have been banned in the first place had they shown that a little bit earlier.


----------



## agricola (Jun 26, 2018)

Maggot said:


> The appeal has been won by Uber
> 
> Uber overturns ban on operating in London



TFL appear to have gone out of their way to facilitate them getting it back tbh.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Jun 26, 2018)

Only a temp licence, on probation for 15 months, not a full 5-year term.


----------



## Maggot (Jun 26, 2018)

agricola said:


> TFL appear to have gone out of their way to facilitate them getting it back tbh.


How have they done that?


----------



## alex_ (Jun 26, 2018)

Maggot said:


> The appeal has been won by Uber
> 
> Uber overturns ban on operating in London



It hardly looks like winning they are on probation and have a list of things they have to do.

Alex


----------



## agricola (Jun 26, 2018)

Maggot said:


> How have they done that?



For a start they let them keep operating after the licence was revoked, and they (at least based on reports of this court case) appear to have been the ones who constructed the framework by which Uber could get its licence back.  

One might have thought that serial (and ongoing) misdeeds, as well as fairly high level interference in domestic politics, would have been come down on harder but it seems not.


----------



## Teaboy (Jun 26, 2018)

Kahn's just announced he will stand for mayor again.  Can't let all those fickle and lazy kids votes slip through his fingers.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Jun 26, 2018)

agricola said:


> For a start they let them keep operating after the licence was revoked...



They had no choice in that, the law allows the operator to continue until an appeal, same as with pub or clubs that have their licences revoked.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Dec 19, 2018)




----------



## Teaboy (Dec 19, 2018)

Are Prius exempt from the charge cause they're hybrids?


----------



## skyscraper101 (Dec 19, 2018)

Teaboy said:


> Are Prius exempt from the charge cause they're hybrids?



I think so, so it may not be a massive issue as 90% of the rides seem to be Prius 

London Congestion Charge-exempt cars – full list | carwow

*Here are 10 of the most popular congestion charge-free cars on sale:*

Audi A3 e-tron.
BMW i3.
Volvo XC90 T8.
Renault Zoe.
Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV.
Nissan Leaf.
VW e-Golf.
Toyota Prius.


----------



## Chz (Dec 19, 2018)

Teaboy said:


> Are Prius exempt from the charge cause they're hybrids?


For now. From 2021 only fully emission free vehicles will qualify for discount of the whole charge.

Also, Toyota has revised the figures for newer Priuses such that they no longer qualify. Not sure where that leaves the older ones.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Dec 19, 2018)

I find all the posturing about zero emission cars ludicrous. A date has been given for the complete ban on fossil fuel powered cars, but nothing about where all the extra electricity is coming from.

This Winter may see brown outs if conditions get rough, we are pretty much using all that we are capable of generating. 

I've just counted twenty turbines at a standstill on this beautiful cold clear day.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 19, 2018)

Sasaferrato said:


> I find all the posturing about zero emission cars ludicrous. A date has been given for the complete ban on fossil fuel powered cars, but nothing about where all the extra electricity is coming from.
> 
> This Winter may see brown outs if conditions get rough, we are pretty much using all that we are capable of generating.
> 
> I've just counted twenty turbines at a standstill on this beautiful cold clear day.



I am sure the government will sort out out, just like with Brexit.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 19, 2018)

Sasaferrato said:


> I find all the posturing about zero emission cars ludicrous. A date has been given for the complete ban on fossil fuel powered cars, but nothing about where all the extra electricity is coming from.
> 
> This Winter may see brown outs if conditions get rough, we are pretty much using all that we are capable of generating.
> 
> I've just counted twenty turbines at a standstill on this beautiful cold clear day.


mind you count them again later, they're crafty buggers


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 19, 2018)

cupid_stunt said:


> I am sure the government will sort out out, just like with Brexit.


see it, say it, sorted


----------



## tim (Dec 19, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> mind you count them again later, they're crafty buggers


And make sure that they aren't getting any nearer and that you've still got a clear escape route.


----------



## maomao (Dec 19, 2018)

What a load of bollocks. It won't cost Uber or Addison Lee a fucking penny and several thousand drivers will be paying forty quid a week to go to work. Cunts.


----------



## cybershot (Dec 19, 2018)

maomao said:


> What a load of bollocks. It won't cost Uber or Addison Lee a fucking penny and several thousand drivers will be paying forty quid a week to go to work. Cunts.



I suspect it will get passed onto the rider somehow too.


----------



## maomao (Dec 19, 2018)

cybershot said:


> I suspect it will get passed onto the rider somehow too.


What's wrong with the word passenger? They're cars not horses.

You're right but it will probably be used as an excuse for fare rises without being fully passed on to drivers.


----------



## Crispy (Dec 19, 2018)

Sasaferrato said:


> I find all the posturing about zero emission cars ludicrous. A date has been given for the complete ban on fossil fuel powered cars, but nothing about where all the extra electricity is coming from.


The primary motivation is air quality in the city, not climate change. So if the electric taxis are ultimately running on gas power stations, that's ok because central London air won't be dishing out asthma and lung cancer like sweets at christmas.


----------



## cybershot (Dec 19, 2018)

maomao said:


> What's wrong with the word passenger? They're cars not horses.


I like to be uber cool and hip.


----------



## maomao (Dec 19, 2018)

cybershot said:


> I like to be uber cool and hip.


It's a long standing grudge against Uber. They've managed to change the entire vocabulary of an industry in a couple of years. Customers are riders not passengers. Jobs are 'in progress' not POB etc. etc. Fucking bunch of Johnny come latelies.


----------



## pesh (Dec 19, 2018)

cupid_stunt said:


> I am sure the government will sort out out, just like with Brexit.


they're doing their best...
Solar power payments to be scrapped – Which? News


> New solar panel owners will not be paid for the electricity they give to the grid from next April, the government revealed today. The feed-in tariff scheme is made up of two parts: the generation tariff and the export tariff.
> Currently, the export tariff pays householders who put excess solar electricity they have generated into the grid. Without the payment, new solar panel owners would give electricity which they cannot use to the grid for free.
> The government department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (BEIS) had previously announced it would scrap generation payments made to homeowners who produce renewable electricity. Stopping both payments means the end of the feed-in tariff scheme for new applicants.
> The government said that the current payments don’t ‘align with the wider government objectives to move towards market-based solutions, cost reflective pricing and the continued drive to minimise support costs on consumers’.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Dec 19, 2018)

Crispy said:


> The primary motivation is air quality in the city, not climate change. So if the electric taxis are ultimately running on gas power stations, that's ok because central London air won't be dishing out asthma and lung cancer like sweets at christmas.



Of course, as we all know, the needs of London are paramount. The peasants out in the sticks who are suffering as a result of piss poor air quality, to provide electricity for London's cars, don't matter.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Dec 19, 2018)

pesh said:


> they're doing their best...
> Solar power payments to be scrapped – Which? News



Big battery technology is what we should be investing in. 

The real answer was fuel cells, with limitless free tidal energy producing the hydrogen. Interesting that California built 200 hydrogen filling stations last year...


----------



## Sasaferrato (Dec 19, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> mind you count them again later, they're crafty buggers



I counted over fifty one cold clear day, between the Ayrshire coast and home. All having a rest.

When the wind blows, we are paying turbine owners not to come onto the grid, it would overload. Wind power is a piss poor way of generating energy.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 19, 2018)

Sasaferrato said:


> I counted over fifty one cold clear day, between the Ayrshire coast and home. All having a rest.
> 
> When the wind blows, we are paying turbine owners not to come onto the grid, it would overload. Wind power is a piss poor way of generating energy.


Turbines in the wrong places, should be in westminster and round town halls


----------



## Teaboy (Dec 19, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> Turbines in the wrong places, should be in westminster and round town halls



I like the one the put next to the M4 in Reading.  You'd think they might have got a clue in the name... Thames Valley.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 19, 2018)

Sasaferrato said:


> I counted over fifty one cold clear day, between the Ayrshire coast and home. All having a rest.



The offshore ones here are all spinning around, but then offshore wind turbines tend to be more efficient than onshore ones, because wind speed and direction are more consistent.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Dec 19, 2018)

Loch Linnhe and Loch Eil have a tide range of 14 feet, and an area of well over 50sq miles, this discharges via the narrows at Corran, where the tide speed can reach about 6 mph. That is a vast amount of power. 

Someone with better mathematical ability (and less lazy) than me could perhaps work that out in kW/h?


----------



## Sasaferrato (Dec 19, 2018)

cupid_stunt said:


> The offshore ones here are all spinning around, but then offshore wind turbines tend to be more efficient than onshore ones, because wind speed and direction are more consistent.


 Aye, land breezes and sea breezes.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 19, 2018)

We also have an increasing number of solar farms down here, which will clearly be more efficient than any up there in the wilds of Scotland.


----------



## maomao (Dec 19, 2018)

With the ulez charge in 2019 and the congestion charge any driver wanting to work in central London will be shelling out an extra 90 quid a week just to go to work.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Dec 19, 2018)

Sasaferrato said:


> Loch Linnhe and Loch Eil have a tide range of 14 feet, and an area of well over 50sq miles, this discharges via the narrows at Corran, where the tide speed can reach about 6 mph. That is a vast amount of power.
> 
> Someone with better mathematical ability (and less lazy) than me could perhaps work that out in kW/h?



It is 19,514,880,000 ft³ of water.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Dec 19, 2018)

maomao said:


> With the ulez charge in 2019 and the congestion charge any driver wanting to work in central London will be shelling out an extra 90 quid a week just to go to work.



What happens with people who live in the zones and have a vehicle?


----------



## NoXion (Dec 19, 2018)

Sasaferrato said:


> Of course, as we all know, the needs of London are paramount. The peasants out in the sticks who are suffering as a result of piss poor air quality, to provide electricity for London's cars, don't matter.



Natural gas is the "cleanest" of fossil fuels, producing mainly water and carbon dioxide. That's partly why it's been growing in use.

It'll still contribute to climate change and thus London quite possibly ending up underwater.


----------



## Spymaster (Dec 19, 2018)

Sasaferrato said:


> What happens with people who live in the zones and have a vehicle?


You get a 90% discount if you live within the zone but you could probably count the number of Uber drivers who live inside the C zone on one hand.


----------



## maomao (Dec 19, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> You get a 90% discount if you live within the zone but you could probably count the number of Uber drivers who live inside the C zone on one hand.


I reckon I know double figures. The normal little pockets of poverty. But yes, a lot less than live in Ilford for example.


----------



## Spymaster (Dec 19, 2018)

maomao said:


> I reckon I know double figures. The normal little pockets of poverty. But yes, a lot less than live in Ilford for example.


Yeah, I had a look at the C zone map after I posted that and there are a few areas, especially Lambeth, Newington, Finsbury, etc ...


----------



## Badgers (Nov 25, 2019)

Uber has officially been stripped of their license in London. Have a month to appeal.


----------



## Badgers (Nov 25, 2019)

A few reports from the UK and US 

Uber loses licence to operate in London

Uber loses licence to operate in London from midnight | Metro News

https://www.washingtonpost.com/gdpr...22d6e-0f6b-11ea-924c-b34d09bbc948_story.html?

Bloomberg - Are you a robot?


----------



## gosub (Nov 25, 2019)

Badgers said:


> Uber has officially been stripped of their license in London. *Have a month to appeal.*




Ah had wondered about the timing so its just New Years rather than Xmas that gets the special effort on making things shitter


----------



## skyscraper101 (Nov 25, 2019)

Badgers said:


> Bloomberg - Are you a robot?



Nothing here about my robot status


----------



## scifisam (Nov 25, 2019)

The breaches are pretty serious though:

‘This means all the [14,000] journeys were uninsured and some passenger journeys took place with unlicensed drivers, one of which had previously had their licence revoked by TfL.’ Another failure allowed dismissed or suspended drivers to create an Uber account and carry passengers, again compromising passenger safety and security,

(From the Metro article).

I can't tell how much that is as a percentage of total rides, but it really shouldn't be happening at all.



gosub said:


> Ah had wondered about the timing so its just New Years rather than Xmas that gets the special effort on making things shitter



No, they have 21 days to appeal, which is the 16th of December (I think). Odds are they'll get another extension though. It's not like there aren't other cab firms though.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Nov 25, 2019)

There's a general pattern of them making token changes to get extensions then appealing when they are finally denied, to get another extension, which will hopefully (for them) end in another last chance where they will make token changes etc.

They have no intention of changing their business model or structure. They just take whatever opportunities are available to extend their licences in whatever area so that they can drive competitors out of the market.


----------



## UrbaneFox (Nov 25, 2019)

gosub said:


> Ah had wondered about the timing so its just New Years rather than Xmas that gets the special effort on making things shitter


I suggest that you sign up with TAXIAPP
All profits to cabbies and no 15 percent to Uber or Gett. or Hailo or whatever it is called these days


----------



## Guineveretoo (Nov 25, 2019)

UrbaneFox said:


> I suggest that you sign up with TAXIAPP
> All profits to cabbies and no 15 percent to Uber or Gett. or Hailo or whatever it is called these days


Found out from an Uber driver the other day that Uber now take 25%. 
I’ve been using Uber a lot in recent weeks and have spoken to all the drivers (since I’ve been sitting in the front) and they’re all claiming to be happy with how it all works and how they get jobs etc.


----------



## magneze (Nov 25, 2019)

Green Tomato Cars also worth a look.


----------



## scifisam (Nov 25, 2019)

magneze said:


> Green Tomato Cars also worth a look.



Seconded. They do my daughter's transfers to college and they're pretty good.


----------



## The39thStep (Nov 25, 2019)

Have never used Uber out of principle . Never found a black cab driver or a mini cab driver who supports them. It’s a drive to the bottom and I hope they lose their licences in other cities .


----------



## skyscraper101 (Nov 25, 2019)

They should launch Lyft here already and mix up the competition.


----------



## UrbaneFox (Nov 25, 2019)

UrbaneFox said:


> I suggest that you sign up with TAXIAPP
> All profits to cabbies and no 15 percent to Uber or Gett. or Hailo or whatever it is called these days


My Taxi, 15 percent add on

London councils have fucked up London Taxicard, by making drivers, not customers, pay the add-on.

This means that a lot of people who use wheelchairs or scooters are severely stuffed when getting a driver to accept a long-distance job.


----------



## scifisam (Nov 25, 2019)

skyscraper101 said:


> They should launch Lyft here already and mix up the competition.



In LA they refused to pick me up because I was in a wheelchair (it folded and I could get in a seat, and I'd told them I was in a wheelchair) and still charged me a missed fee, then told me to call their US number from the UK to dispute the charge. They'd only be competition in terms of a race to the bottom.


----------



## pinkmonkey (Nov 25, 2019)

I prefer Uber where I live  because the cabbies at our local rank are so rude.  I was made to sit on newspaper in one because I'm a boater. My neighbour was racially abused again, in a black cab, last week. She reported it again, but nothing ever comes of it. So we choose Uber if we can. I don't want to be treated with contempt, just for paying someone to drive me home.


----------



## BristolEcho (Nov 26, 2019)

pinkmonkey said:


> I prefer Uber where I live  because the cabbies at our local rank are so rude.  I was made to sit on newspaper in one because I'm a boater. My neighbour was racially abused again, in a black cab, last week. She reported it again, but nothing ever comes of it. So we choose Uber if we can. I don't want to be treated with contempt, just for paying someone to drive me home.



Exactly. My sister in law came to Bristol with her 3 year old daughter the other week. He blatantly overcharged after she enquired on the price due to only having £10 in cash on her. Turned the meter off and charged her the full £10. It's really shitty behaviour and that's the reason she got an Ola back. Uber and other firms are pretty fucking shit, but the customer service and ease of use is a definite plus side IME.


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 26, 2019)

pinkmonkey said:


> I was made to sit on newspaper in one because I'm a boater.


What does this mean? 

Boater?


----------



## scifisam (Nov 26, 2019)

BristolEcho said:


> Exactly. My sister in law came to Bristol with her 3 year old daughter the other week. He blatantly overcharged after she enquired on the price due to only having £10 in cash on her. Turned the meter off and charged her the full £10. It's really shitty behaviour and that's the reason she got an Ola back. Uber and other firms are pretty fucking shit, but the customer service and ease of use is a definite plus side IME.



Except if even a small percentage of their employees are fake, I wouldn't feel comfortable letting my daughter travel in one alone (we use Gett sometimes because black cabs are strictly regulated; she's autistic). A lot of people who take taxis do it not because they're rich, but because they need to due to disabilities of different types. That's without even considering that, unless we ban alcohol, we need a way for drunks to get home without driving, and drunks are pretty vulnerable. Taxis need to be regulated, and users need to know their driver is the person its claimed to be.

I just looked up Ola and it's a different company to Uber so I'm not sure them being OK says anything good about Uber.


----------



## William of Walworth (Nov 26, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> What does this mean?
> 
> Boater?



pinkmonkey is a prime boater, yes (and very nice  )


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 26, 2019)

William of Walworth said:


> pinkmonkey is a prime boater


What does that mean?

They own a boat?


----------



## William of Walworth (Nov 26, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> What does that mean?
> 
> They own a boat?



They certainly live on one and have done for years  ...

... but when I said "prime" I should really have said "very much"


----------



## BristolEcho (Nov 26, 2019)

scifisam said:


> Except if even a small percentage of their employees are fake, I wouldn't feel comfortable letting my daughter travel in one alone (we use Gett sometimes because black cabs are strictly regulated; she's autistic). A lot of people who take taxis do it not because they're rich, but because they need to due to disabilities of different types. That's without even considering that, unless we ban alcohol, we need a way for drunks to get home without driving, and drunks are pretty vulnerable. Taxis need to be regulated, and users need to know their driver is the person its claimed to be.
> 
> I just looked up Ola and it's a different company to Uber so I'm not sure them being OK says anything good about Uber.



Yeah to be fair I don't disagree with this at all and this is an issue I have pointed out previously when having the Uber Vs Black cab debate. They shouldn't run on different rules. Particularly before I'd ever used an app to book one. 

I've not found black cab drivers any more reliable for people with disabilities unfortunately. In fact a friend of mine had consistent trouble with local taxi drivers until he switched to Ola. We've always found it hard to find reliable taxi drivers.


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## Spymaster (Nov 26, 2019)

William of Walworth said:


> They certainly live on one and have done for years  ...
> 
> ... but when I said "prime" I should really have said "very much"


Now I'm confused.

What does being a boater have to do with you being made to sit on a newspaper in a cab pinkmonkey ?


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## scifisam (Nov 26, 2019)

BristolEcho said:


> Yeah to be fair I don't disagree with this at all and this is an issue I have pointed out previously when having the Uber Vs Black cab debate. They shouldn't run on different rules. Particularly before I'd ever used an app to book one.
> 
> I've not found black cab drivers any more reliable for people with disabilities unfortunately. In fact a friend of mine had consistent trouble with local taxi drivers until he switched to Ola. We've always found it hard to find reliable taxi drivers.



Black cabs are regulated differently outside of London - I just looked up Ola and they're a South-West England and Wales only company. Black cabs in London are regulated by TFL, and so are minicabs. They probably have more power over their drivers than the local council authorities that regulate them elsewhere. Black cab drivers outside London don't have to do the Knowledge. They're a different thing, really.


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## BristolEcho (Nov 26, 2019)

scifisam said:


> Black cabs are regulated differently outside of London - I just looked up Ola and they're a South-West England and Wales only company. Black cabs in London are regulated by TFL, and so are minicabs. They probably have more power over their drivers than the local council authorities that regulate them elsewhere. Black cab drivers outside London don't have to do the Knowledge. They're a different thing, really.



Ah okay I didn't know that thanks for pointing it out. Ola were originally based in India I think, but yes probably only operate in those areas in the UK.


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## Puddy_Tat (Nov 26, 2019)

scifisam said:


> Black cab drivers outside London don't have to do the Knowledge.



to be honest, it depends very much on the council - it's one of the few things that councils have quite a lot of discretion on, some councils seem to enjoy making up hoops to jump through, some try to do it with as little effort as possible.  some areas do require some form of local knowledge test for hackney carriage drivers, some also for private hire drivers. 

the whole system of taxi licensing (i have had some involvement with this in the past) is really in need of a bit of a re-think, it's very parochial, and some bits of law round it date back to the 1840s (although the requirement to carry a bale of hay is an urban myth), private hire licensing only really became a thing in the 70s (and not until after 2000 in London) and there were minor bodges to the law in the 80s.  Mostly well before internets and apps were thought of...


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## scifisam (Nov 26, 2019)

Puddy_Tat said:


> to be honest, it depends very much on the council - it's one of the few things that councils have quite a lot of discretion on, some councils seem to enjoy making up hoops to jump through, some try to do it with as little effort as possible.  some areas do require some form of local knowledge test for hackney carriage drivers, some also for private hire drivers.
> 
> the whole system of taxi licensing (i have had some involvement with this in the past) is really in need of a bit of a re-think, it's very parochial, and some bits of law round it date back to the 1840s (although the requirement to carry a bale of hay is an urban myth), private hire licensing only really became a thing in the 70s (and not until after 2000 in London) and there were minor bodges to the law in the 80s.  Mostly well before internets and apps were thought of...



I would image that something like the Knowledge would be difficult to regulate outside a really big city, because drivers would so often be travelling outside the city. It is less relevant now, with GPS, but in London at least it does help because you don't need to know the postcode of where you're going. 

Imagine a character in a movie getting into a taxi and saying follow that cab! with an uber.


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## maomao (Nov 26, 2019)

I don't think they'll get it back. There's very little case for saying it will put drivers out of work now there's at least three equivalent platforms that the PCO presumably do think are run by fit and proper people. I haven't met many drivers who only do Uber for a while and am sure the recruitment departments at Kapten, Ola and Bolt are working overtime right now.


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## pinkmonkey (Nov 26, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> Now I'm confused.
> 
> What does being a boater have to do with you being made to sit on a newspaper in a cab pinkmonkey ?


Because we're sometimes seen as being dirty. Soon as I told him where I wanted to go he made me sit on newspaper.


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## Spymaster (Nov 26, 2019)

pinkmonkey said:


> Because we're sometimes seen as being dirty. Soon as I told him where I wanted to go he made me sit on newspaper.


Oh. I had no idea.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Nov 26, 2019)

If this stops people from saying such banal bollocks as , "I'll grab an uber." then I'm all for a banning


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## pinkmonkey (Nov 26, 2019)

BristolEcho said:


> Exactly. My sister in law came to Bristol with her 3 year old daughter the other week. He blatantly overcharged after she enquired on the price due to only having £10 in cash on her. Turned the meter off and charged her the full £10. It's really shitty behaviour and that's the reason she got an Ola back. Uber and other firms are pretty fucking shit, but the customer service and ease of use is a definite plus side IME.


Paying to sit in a confined space with a miserable gammon who complains for the entire ride, because I’m travelling a mile? Nope.  Do any Londoners like them or is it only tourists? We did have a brilliant minicab firm at the station (Tottenham Hale) and they were just great, but their office was demolished because the station is being extended. I’ll use another app, or minicab firm if Uber stop trading, as I guess will everyone else.


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## BristolEcho (Nov 26, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> If this stops people from saying such banal bollocks as , "I'll grab an uber." then I'm all for a banning



It's actually amazing how quickly stuff like that becomes part of language. I've caught people saying it even when they mean get a black cab from the street.


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## TopCat (Nov 26, 2019)

scifisam said:


> Imagine a character in a movie getting into a taxi and saying follow that cab! with an uber.


This is a very silly argument.


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## Teaboy (Nov 26, 2019)

Bolt is already up and running in London and I imagine there are a fair few other similar apps all doing the same thing with probably the same drivers.

The mad thing about Uber is how they really should have taken over the world, they should be the one stop shop in virtually every city because they pioneered the concept and had the technology in place yet they've fucked it in so many places mostly because of their business practices.  Turns out being a bunch of cunts that pisses everyone off is not always a good business model.  Its amazing the amount of places its banned in yet other similar apps are allowed.


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## maomao (Nov 26, 2019)

pinkmonkey said:


> Because we're sometimes seen as being dirty. Soon as I told him where I wanted to go he made me sit on newspaper.



Wtf? Did you consider reporting him to the PCO? I'd have told him to stick his paper up his arse.


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## Spymaster (Nov 26, 2019)

pinkmonkey said:


> Do any Londoners like them or is it only tourists?


The upsides are that they pretty much always know where they're going, you can get five people in them and you can hail them in the street. Most of the time the drivers are ok and I think the vast majority are safe and trustworthy. The only downside is that they're ridiculously fucking expensive.


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## emanymton (Nov 26, 2019)

scifisam said:


> I would image that something like the Knowledge would be difficult to regulate outside a really big city, because drivers would so often be travelling outside the city. It is less relevant now, with GPS, but in London at least it does help because you don't need to know the postcode of where you're going.
> 
> Imagine a character in a movie getting into a taxi and saying follow that cab! with an uber.


Basically the plot of this I think.
Stuber (film) - Wikipedia


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## scifisam (Nov 26, 2019)

TopCat said:


> This is a very silly argument.



Do you really think I was making a serious argument there?


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## skyscraper101 (Nov 27, 2019)

Uber rivals mobilize as the company's future in London becomes uncertain


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## Badgers (Dec 6, 2019)

Uber passengers reported over 3,000 sexual assaults last year, report says | Uber | The Guardian


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## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Sep 28, 2020)

Uber granted London licence as court rules it 'no longer poses a risk'
					

Ride-hailing service wins appeal a year after TfL refused extension over safety concerns




					www.theguardian.com
				




Now granted the licence, to exactly no-one's surprise.


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## Doodler (Sep 29, 2020)

pinkmonkey said:


> Paying to sit in a confined space with a miserable gammon who complains for the entire ride, because I’m travelling a mile? Nope.  Do any Londoners like them or is it only tourists?



Well-off Londoners and maybe the occasional newspaper columnist looking for 'my mate Danny says' material.


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## Spymaster (Sep 29, 2020)

pinkmonkey said:


> Paying to sit in a confined space with a miserable gammon who complains for the entire ride, because I’m travelling a mile? Nope.  Do any Londoners like them or is it only tourists? We did have a brilliant minicab firm at the station (Tottenham Hale) and they were just great, but their office was demolished because the station is being extended. I’ll use another app, or minicab firm if Uber stop trading, as I guess will everyone else.


Totally agree. Good on Uber. Fuck black cabs.


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## Jay Park (Sep 29, 2020)

Chalk this one up is a point for us, eh?


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## skyscraper101 (Feb 19, 2021)

Uber Ruling at Top Court May Change Its U.K. Business Forever
					

Uber Technologies Inc. is bracing for a ruling from the U.K.’s top court that threatens to alter the firm’s business model in its biggest European market.




					www.bloomberg.com
				





> The Supreme Court will rule Friday on whether Uber drivers should be classed as “workers,” entitling them to minimum wage and holiday pay. Although the decision will only directly apply to the 25 drivers who brought the case in 2016, it will set a precedent for how gig workers are treated in the U.K.



Uber just lost in the Supreme Court.


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## Badgers (Feb 19, 2021)

Good to hear


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## NoXion (Feb 19, 2021)

Good. Fuck Uber.

Can the food delivery cunts like UberEats and Just-Eat be next? I don't know how bad it is over here, but I've heard horror stories from folks in the US.


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## skyscraper101 (Feb 19, 2021)

It surely can’t be long before all these gig driver/delivery jobs are subject to the same court ruling.


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## Spymaster (Feb 19, 2021)

NoXion said:


> Good. Fuck Uber.
> 
> Can the food delivery cunts like UberEats and Just-Eat be next? I don't know how bad it is over here, but I've heard horror stories from folks in the US.


Is Uber Eats bad then? They’re my favourite delivery merchants. With some restaurants round here they deliver almost as soon as you click the “send” button.

And there’s an additional delivery charge so you don’t feel like the restaurant is scalping the rider.


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## NoXion (Feb 19, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Is Uber Eats bad then? They’re my favourite delivery merchants. With some restaurants round here they deliver almost as soon as you click the “send” button.
> 
> And there’s an additional delivery charge so you don’t feel like the restaurant is scalping the rider.



If it's like most jobs in the so-called "gig economy", then there's bound to be something stinky going on. This new breed of businesses founded by Silicon Valley Tech Bro cunts have done more than enough to lose any benefit of the doubt.


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## stdP (Feb 19, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Is Uber Eats bad then? They’re my favourite delivery merchants. With some restaurants round here they deliver almost as soon as you click the “send” button.
> 
> And there’s an additional delivery charge so you don’t feel like the restaurant is scalping the rider.



They're about as ethical as you'd expect them to be give their provenance. Not to say they might give an excellent delivery service but even ignoring the plight of the workers their track record on caring about the stuff they send is somewhat lackadaisical and they take a 30% swipe of the money that I'd rather went to the restaurant and delivery driver.









						Uber Eats allowed deliveries from fake restaurant man set up in front garden
					

Inspectors 'almost speechless with horror' upon discovering firm was collecting from man cooking on filthy barbecue in front of home




					www.independent.co.uk
				











						Why Uber Eats Will Eat You Into Bankruptcy
					

Why Uber Eats Will Eat You Into Bankruptcy




					www.forbes.com
				




One of our local curry houses (the only place we regularly order takeaway from; we'll usually walk to pick up others) refuses to use them as it's cheaper for him or one have one of his staff do it. Three of the local places we pick up from give us a discount for bypassing the app so that can goes in to the tip or charity jar.


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## salem (Feb 19, 2021)

skyscraper101 said:


> It surely can’t be long before all these gig driver/delivery jobs are subject to the same court ruling.


I'm sure there will be lobbying going on to change the law instead though.


Spymaster said:


> Is Uber Eats bad then? They’re my favourite delivery merchants. With some restaurants round here they deliver almost as soon as you click the “send” button.
> 
> And there’s an additional delivery charge so you don’t feel like the restaurant is scalping the rider.


Agreed, they are great service wise and you'd think the business model would be sound - it should be a win all around. But like most of these new 'disruptive' companies they some how manage to fuck it for everyone - somehow despite taking massive cuts from the people making the food, paying the drivers fuck all with no employment rights/benefits, charging the customer extra fees and having huge sale volumes they seem to be making a big loss.

Added to which Uber eats seems to rely on dodgy* labour / uninsured drivers to get stuff delivered

* I'm tired and can't think of a better word than dodgy. But frequently the person who delivers the food isn't the person it says it'll be - loads and loads of people renting their accounts on gumtree - if the money is shit when you're working for them legit it's even worse when the person with the papers is taking a cut on top. Uber is able to willingly exploit this labour market by turning a blind eye to what's going on. And then I don't think I've ever actually had a real bicycle deliver my food despite it saying it. Uber with all their fancy AI bollocks don't seem to think it's odd that their cyclists manage to maintain a regular 30 miles an hour up a steep hill. Again Uber eats profits from uninsured delivery scooters/cars but it's the driver that's taking the risk.


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